# What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Not complaining about porn, I'm done with it as I've said before.

But read the article attached below and the blog associated with it as reported on cnn.com today. This is from a "man" in a marriage that was affected by his porn use.

So tell me, is it as inocuous and unhurtful to the wives in these marriages as you "guys" would have us believe?

Appears not in this particular marriage...and I'm sure others are in the same situation or heading there fast.

What porn did to a marriage – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Actually, it looks more like the inadequate sexual education provided by his religious institution failed to prepare him for the realities of a full-blown adult male sexuality, and instead set up a positive-feedback loop when it came to his clandestine viewing habits because his dominant philosophical and spiritual landscape was in direct conflict with his innate mating instinct and that inadequacy manifested itself in an increasingly anti-social pattern of behavior that eventually impacted his entire sexuality, including that of his married life, which was further exacerbated by his wife's religious upbringing with a generally sex-negative dogma and profound spiritual consequences for those who violate the myopic legal codes of a five-thousand year old culture of semi-nomadic barbarians who treated women as de facto chattel and were so threatened by female sexuality they forbade every vestige of it.

In other words, it wasn't porn that was his problem. His religion pretty much set him up to fail because it refuses to address a modern sexuality, one which he clearly desires but is denied. But porn is a convenient scapegoat in a rocky relationship.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

People's choices usually have the biggest impact on relationships. Whether its porn, drugs, alcohol, gambling, excessive spending etc. Lots of things I guess to tie into peoples thought process on things. Its good when people reconize what has been hurtful to a relationship though and take steps to improve it and themselves.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Jamison said:


> People's choices usually have the biggest impact on relationships. Whether its porn, drugs, alcohol, gambling, excessive spending etc. Lots of things I guess to tie into peoples thought process on things. Its good when people reconize what has been hurtful to a relationship though and take steps to improve it and themselves.


I'd throw religion into that list, too.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> I'd throw religion into that list, too.


Yes, but it all still comes down to choices.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Yes it does come down to choices.

And no religion, etc., can prepare a wife for when her husband starts gawking at all those naked people on the internet.

I consider myself pretty savvy and even I wasn't prepared for the LEVEL of my husband's porn involvement.

Temptation is just that - temptation - and the more it's dangled in your face, the harder it is to turn away...after all, we are human and not perfect. 

Before the advent of the internet and the proliferation of readily available 24/7 porn, chat sites, live sex forums, etc., while the temptation was there (in the form of erotic literature, movies and magazines), it required you to leave your home to get it, now you don't even have to get dressed, it's just a click away.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Yes it does come down to choices.
> 
> And no religion, etc., can prepare a wife for when her husband starts gawking at all those naked people on the internet.
> 
> ...



I disagree. If our societal and cultural mores actually did try to prepare us for the full onset of adult sexuality, instead of capitulating to fear-mongering and religious taboos, and the mainstream religious culture was sex-positive and not sex-negative, then both the need for porn and the negative reaction to it would be significantly muted. Easy access has just forced the issue to be dealt with on a cultural level, and it's causing some society-wide issues because our behavior doesn't jive with our supposed ideals -- and we refuse to question the legitimacy of those ideals.

Not all religions are sex-negative, and those that aren't don't seem to have a lot of problems with internet porn. Oh, it's there, it's just not a problem.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I disagree. If our societal and cultural mores actually did try to prepare us for the full onset of adult sexuality, instead of capitulating to fear-mongering and religious taboos, and the mainstream religious culture was sex-positive and not sex-negative, then both the need for porn and the negative reaction to it would be significantly muted. Easy access has just forced the issue to be dealt with on a cultural level, and it's causing some society-wide issues because our behavior doesn't jive with our supposed ideals -- and we refuse to question the legitimacy of those ideals.
> 
> Not all religions are sex-negative, and those that aren't don't seem to have a lot of problems with internet porn. Oh, it's there, it's just not a problem.



So, let me get this right - you are suggesting that our culture, if it prepares us for adult sexuality and pro-sex, then the need for porn would be muted, along with negative reaction to it?

Sorry, but this sounds to me like psycho-babble designed to excuse men for inexcusable behavior and to allow them to continue to disrespect, degrade and otherwise ignore their spouses.

This, of course, going back to how our "boys" are raised into "men" - that their needs are paramount and the objectifying of women and what they are useful for.

Without getting into why I have an issue with porn, since I've made that perfectly clear, PORN can and does ruin a lot of marriages and relationships - we've seen evidence of that here on TAM and I'm sure it's a lot more rampant than what we are exposed to on just this site.

Maybe if WE, as a culture, spent more time on commitment and developing real relationships between men and women, sex aside, then we would see that the use of porn would be more muted and the negative connotations assigned to it would be easier for spouses to deal with - there would be more understanding and less of a feeling of downright rejection.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

MWIL, your statement, "excuse men for inexcusable behavior" Or excuse people for inexcusable behavior if you want to word it that way, I think thats exactly what is wrong with lots of people these days and why there are lots of unhappy marriages. I don't care what it all comes from, religion or not, it still a choice. 

Whether its porn or something different, if a spouse is hurting or suffering because of another persons choices or behavior then that is a problem. Regardless of where it all started, why it started, or who started it etc.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Jamison said:


> MWIL, your statement, "excuse men for inexcusable behavior" Or excuse people for inexcusable behavior if you want to word it that way, I think thats exactly what is wrong with lots of people these days and why there are lots of unhappy marriages. I don't care what it all comes from, religion or not, it still a choice.
> 
> Whether its porn or something different, if a spouse is hurting or suffering because of another persons choices or behavior then that is a problem. Regardless of where it all started, why it started, or who started it etc.


:iagree:


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> So, let me get this right - you are suggesting that our culture, if it prepares us for adult sexuality and pro-sex, then the need for porn would be muted, along with negative reaction to it?
> 
> Sorry, but this sounds to me like psycho-babble designed to excuse men for inexcusable behavior and to allow them to continue to disrespect, degrade and otherwise ignore their spouses.
> 
> ...



That's my point: you can't do it "sex aside". Sex is integral to the process and a major foundation of the relationship. The idea that it is secondary to the equation is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about: for men, sex is an essential component in a marital relationship, and any discussion about the relationship between men and women that doesn't take the realistic needs of both genders into account is doomed to an unsustainable amount of friction. 

As far as your comment about boys and men, and how they are raised, it displays an unfortunate lack of appreciation for masculine values, and devalues masculinity over-all by attempting to portray male sexuality _as it appears to you_, not as it is _defined by men_. I understand that -- you have feminine sexual values, which means your gender colors your perspective heavily on this subject -- but until masculine sexuality, as defined by men, comes to be respected without judgement for what it is, there won't be a social re-connection. The fact is, sex is and always will be a primary factor in the lives of men, and entertaining any other notion when discussing male-female relationships seems a pretty straight-forward attempt to undermine and diminish the masculine position in favor of the female side.

And as far as the "psycho-babble" comment . . . it's strangely reminiscent of the responses that early feminists received when they made their push for the acknowledgement of the rights of women.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> That's my point: you can't do it "sex aside". Sex is integral to the process and a major foundation of the relationship. The idea that it is secondary to the equation is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about: for men, sex is an essential component in a marital relationship, and any discussion about the relationship between men and women that doesn't take the realistic needs of both genders into account is doomed to an unsustainable amount of friction.
> 
> As far as your comment about boys and men, and how they are raised, it displays an unfortunate lack of appreciation for masculine values, and devalues masculinity over-all by attempting to portray male sexuality _as it appears to you_, not as it is _defined by men_. I understand that -- you have feminine sexual values, which means your gender colors your perspective heavily on this subject -- but until masculine sexuality, as defined by men, comes to be respected without judgement for what it is, there won't be a social re-connection. The fact is, sex is and always will be a primary factor in the lives of men, and entertaining any other notion when discussing male-female relationships seems a pretty straight-forward attempt to undermine and diminish the masculine position in favor of the female side.
> 
> And as far as the "psycho-babble" comment . . . it's strangely reminiscent of the responses that early feminists received when they made their push for the acknowledgement of the rights of women.


Let's agree to disagree.

But first, let me digress. I have no judgement about masculine sexuality at all - I just know, as a mother of a son myself and as a woman who has a brother, etc., that a lot of "boys" are raised to be the type of "men" that objectify women and still believe that they should raise the children and keep the home and the barefoot, in the kitchen and pregnant still exists - even to this day. 

Boys are raised to not show emotions, to be strong in the face of any adversity, not to discuss their feelings, not to show that they "really" care for fear of being called less than what he is - a man. I raised my son to be just the opposite. To be a man, but be able to express his feelings, fears and emotions, when needed. Hence the reason that he is considered, by most men, to be less than a man because he is "sensitive" and not a jerk.

Now, if you mean by judgment, I don't understand the necessity of viewing naked strangers on the internet, in magazines, etc. - then you're right, it's not NECESSARY, just because you have testosterone. If you guys are under that much pressure and need release, then fine, do your thing and "think" about it, that doesn't justify turning to porn. I masturbate from what I imagine in my mind - I don't need to visit 100 porn sites, live sex shows and live sex chat to get off.

I can do it without porn, how come you guys can't? Being visual I don't believe is the crux of the problem - I'm visual as hell, but don't need to cruise porn in order to "get ready" for my spouse, or to get off.

It's just more and more and more and more excuses and justification for behavior and choices that hurt others.

It's that old saying "boys will be boys." BS


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Let's agree to disagree.
> 
> But first, let me digress. I have no judgement about masculine sexuality at all - I just know, as a mother of a son myself and as a woman who has a brother, etc., that a lot of "boys" are raised to be the type of "men" that objectify women and still believe that they should raise the children and keep the home and the barefoot, in the kitchen and pregnant still exists - even to this day.


Sure, although they're being slowly overtaken by the reality of 21st century post-industrial society, and will be genuinely endangered within a generation. Although I'd argue that a certain amount of objectification is implicit in male (and female) sexuality.

Now, let's break this part down. This is the part that matters:



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Boys are raised to not show emotions,


Boys are taught to conceal their emotions because within the culture of men to be overly emotional demonstrates a lack of control that leads to a much lower social position, since male values see a lot of value in self-control; also, men who display or express emotion too readily eliminate themselves from competition in most mating situations, since such displays do not inspire confidence in a male's emotional security and usually serve as warning signs to choosy females. 



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> to be strong in the face of any adversity,


Can't argue with that. I want my boys to be able to handle their business.



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> not to discuss their feelings,


Actually, it's "not to discuss their feelings" _inappropriately_. There are plenty of venues in which it is acceptable for a man to discuss his feelings. But breaking out of that part of the culture and freely offering your feelings gets you branded as a whiner and a complainer, unless there is a powerful purpose behind that sharing. So when it does happen out-of-context, it has additional meaning.



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> not to show that they "really" care for fear of being called less than what he is - a man.


Oh, menfolk do show that they care, in all sorts of ways, every day. They just don't do it in ways that are readily recognizable as such to most women. You can show that you care AND are manly, you just probably won't be recognized for doing so, except in very understated dude ways among your closest guy friends. And being called unmanly is, indeed, a legitimate fear in any human society, since it often reduces your status perceptibly. Same goes true for femininity.




MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I raised my son to be just the opposite. To be a man, but be able to express his feelings, fears and emotions, when needed.


Now here's the thing: when WHOM needs to? When you need him to, or when he chooses to? Being able to eloquently express yourself is a powerful masculine trait. But to have to do so at the behest of a woman, when you'd rather keep your feelings to yourself, is unmanly and humiliating. A boy who shares his feelings freely and inappropriately, or does so because the woman in his life prompted him to, is counter to masculine values.



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Hence the reason that he is considered, by most men, to be less than a man because he is "sensitive" and not a jerk.


No, he is considered less than a man because _he has not learned important masculine skills and values_, and has instead been instilled with counter-survival characteristics that are generally not welcomed in masculine culture. You have made him (your words) "sensitive" and not a "jerk". You have done him no favors. 

Instead of knowing when its appropriate to share his feelings in the pre-established, well-known masculine venues, he will be shunned socially by most men, because he has been forced to adopt feminine standards of behavior instead of masculine ones. That's fine, if he doesn't want to mesh well with the other boys, but by not allowing him to learn the appropriate paths to masculine self-expression you have handicapped his social mobility tremendously. No telling what it will do to his future relationships.

Heck, any other guys raised out there to be "sensitive"? Just what did that mean? And did it help you or hurt you in courting, seduction, and pursuit?



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Now, if you mean by judgment, I don't understand the necessity of viewing naked strangers on the internet, in magazines, etc. - then you're right, it's not NECESSARY, just because you have testosterone.


Are you, a woman, really going to instruct me, a man, what is and is not necessary to my own sexuality? Are you willing to extend to me the same courtesy?



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> If you guys are under that much pressure and need release, then fine, do your thing and "think" about it, that doesn't justify turning to porn. I masturbate from what I imagine in my mind - I don't need to visit 100 porn sites, live sex shows and live sex chat to get off.


You aren't a man. Your sexual rules and values don't apply to masculine sexual values. Shall we apply full-blown masculine sexuality values to female sexuality, then, and judge how they measure up? Yes, gender does matter, especially in sexuality. And by dismissing and demeaning our stated desires, you diminish your respect for us. We only need two pairs of shoes, for example: shall we start complaining about the entirely unnecessary number of shoes in most women's closets? 

No, of course not. Like it or not, shoes are part of female sexuality. We may not understand it, we may enjoy it or not, but for the most part we keep our mouths shut about it because y'all seem to think it's necessary to have two dozen pairs of shoes, and it makes you happy. So we quite rightly concede a point we don't understand in the quest to allow you to define your own sexuality. Men deserve the same right.



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I can do it without porn, how come you guys can't? Being visual I don't believe is the crux of the problem - I'm visual as hell, but don't need to cruise porn in order to "get ready" for my spouse, or to get off.
> 
> It's just more and more and more and more excuses and justification for behavior and choices that hurt others.
> 
> It's that old saying "boys will be boys." BS



Which is a great way to demean my argument without addressing it. Just because something is or isn't right for you, that doesn't give you the perspective to judge whether it is right for an entire gender -- especially a gender that isn't your own! 

The fact is, boys will be boys, and if you want to use that as an excuse to stop the conversation, hey, it works. But it's not productive. It's judgmental and it makes us resentful. It also allows us, as a gender, to dismiss anything further of interest you have to say, since you've already dismissed any of our concerned by essentially throwing up your hands.

If the conversation is to happen, it has to happen with respect for both sides, otherwise it's a long route to frustration and resentment.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Sure, although they're being slowly overtaken by the reality of 21st century post-industrial society, and will be genuinely endangered within a generation. Although I'd argue that a certain amount of objectification is implicit in male (and female) sexuality.
> 
> Now, let's break this part down. This is the part that matters:
> 
> ...


As I said earlier, let's agree to disagree.

My son is not a wimp - he is a sensitive, caring man - which is evident in HOW he treats women and HOW he respects them. In other words, he treats them with the same respect and caring that he treats me - his mother. No HARM with that.

The thinking that men can't be masculine and men if they are caring, respectful and sensitive to the needs and feelings of women is hogwash and the reason why we have some many TOUGH and EGO driven men today that don't give a s**t.

Let's agree that we will never agree on the sexuality issue - as we are both coming from different perspectives.

And while I don't dictate what your sexuality should be as a man - in my vows, as I'm sure most - I believe there was a forsaking all others clause - I take that to mean in-person and elsewhere (including the internet)--especially if LIVE people are involved (live sex chats, IMing, etc.). If I'm not enough for you, then you need to remain single - I loved my husband enough to marry him and he IS enough for me, when he stops being enough - then I'll hit the road, simple as that.

If I wanted to have sex over the internet - I would have remained single and perhaps every red-blooded male that prefers sex over the internet to that in real-life should have remained single. I have no issues with their right to view porn 24/7 if they wish, what I object to is when they drag some unsuspecting woman along for the ride that didn't/doesn't want to be there and then use the excuse - well, I'm a mannnnnnn.


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Wow. That was a lot to read. I think I made a post not to long ago, saying something similer....but in MUCH simpler words. (grabs asprin) hehe, jk, was good disscusion. 

Basically, I have thought for a long time, that if people in general, were brought up with a more general knowledge on sex, and not the overall stigma, that things would be different. When watching a movie, and a man and a woman are having sex(and I mean the movie kind not porn) why sheild your childs eyes. Why keep them in the dark. Why keep them thinking that sex is a bad thing. Instead try to teach them WHAT sex is.

I choose to look at porn. I do so, because I am not entirely happy with my sex life. I have talked to my wife about these things and, it seems to matter little. I can't really be mad at her as I feel that would be hypocritical. I cant really be mad at her, for not doing something she doesnt want to do. However, if we did sit down and talk, and I told her that I watched porn, I don't feel that she could really be mad at me, since I am watching porn to give me what she doesnt want to do. However, she probably would be mad at me. >.>

That is my situation, however I think that a lot of people who are into porn might share something similer. Think of this, there are a lot of people who cheat too. That go out, and have sex with different people other then their spouse. I think that something that porn offers is the variety, without physically cheating. 


In the end, I think porn is no different then any other addiction. If your a smoker. If your an alchaholic. If your into drugs. Its all an addiction. But I feel that a lot of addictions come from an overall lack of communication. When I was younger, my parents let me try beer that they were drinking. I was raised around people that were social drinkers, and so I learned about alch, and as such, I rarely drink and have the utmost intelligence about it when I do. Where I drink, how much I drink etc.. My parents also smoked. I learned about that as I grew up, and I don't smoke. Not saying that simply teaching kids about things will stop addiction, but I do feel that not making things a stigma, and letting kids know that sex, is a good thing, that takes responsability, respect and intelligence, and age, might help in the long run.

Just kinda rattling off, pouring thoughts lol.

Dray


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Porn is extremely harmful to society and relationships. I believe that men and women are sexual beings and they are socialised differently about sex which causes disconnect, however porn further harms real connections between men and women.

Women have every reason to feel threatened by porn, and it is recognised that porn addictions or issue surrounding porn are regularly the source of marital problems, most relationship experts will tell you this.

Here is an interesting piece by Robert Jenson in media with a conscience.



> For the past decade I have been actively involved in movements to resist the United States’ imperial military activity in the world and to critique men’s sexual exploitation of women in pornography.
> 
> So, when the organizers of a “Heroes and Healthy Families” conference for U.S. Marines asked me to speak about the harms of pornography, I was a bit conflicted.
> 
> ...


Critiquing Masculinity at the Corps

Porn is not harmless, and people need to be aware of that and stop treating the issue so flippantly when clearly it has far reaching and often devastating effects on people and relationships.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I am sure Ian will have some comments on that speach but here are mine:

1. Women are objectified and used - what about the rapidly growing amature porn segment which will eventually put commercial porn out of business. 

2. The stories create reality - I think we each have our own fantasies regardless of porn. I don't think porn creates the fantasy other than giving us a visual representation of what already turns us on. 

3. I do think this is a problem, not driven by porn but in our parents and society not teaching the younger generation how to be healthy sexual beings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Ah hubby, you are back and I see blissfully unchanged.

Ian will have more to say for sure. All of it will have a masculine slant and then he'll tell me he's not an angry man and understands women very well. He took a woman studies course, was an objectified naked model for an all woman's art school and surrounds himself with women who he treats with dignity and respect. He might even cop to the fact that he took place in a scientific study where he was given female hormones and menstruated through his urethra all for the sake of knowing women better.

One thing is always perfectly clear from Ian's posts; however, he doesn't know women. He only cares about men, their sexuality and why they don't get what they need. He doesn't care about the price women pay or how they feel and why they're doing what they do. He only speaks manspeak and won't learn humanspeak as a rule.

On that note, Syrum...couldn't agree with your article more


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

hubby said:


> I am sure Ian will have some comments on that speach but here are mine:
> 
> 1. Women are objectified and used - what about the rapidly growing amature porn segment which will eventually put commercial porn out of business.


I have found through my research that amature porn tends to mirror main stream porn, which of course is rapidly hard core, and still women in amature porn are objectified and seem to the ones giving pleasure (no not allways) rather then recieving. You only have to look at the way they have sex to maximise the camera angle to realise most women are not going to orgasm from what is being done to them.

I do not believe that amature porn will put commercial porn out of business.
It sure seems to be making millions and millions, more then or as much as the hollywood movie industry.


> 2. The stories create reality - I think we each have our own fantasies regardless of porn. I don't think porn creates the fantasy other than giving us a visual representation of what already turns us on.


Untrue , many studies I have read and confessions from people in the porn industry (producers, directors, stars etc) all say that in the industry they all ways looking to go one step further, more and more hard core etc, to excite and increase interest. therefore many things that people never even thought about many years ago like ATM and double anal were never even thought of by most men. And that in fact men's expectations of their wives and girlfriends have changed, they are asking for the things or fantasizing about the things they now see in porn.

in fact it is thought that young people see so many thousands of porn images before they are even 18, much of it quite hard core, and of course like pavlovs dog, this is created to turn them on and they are then conditioned to find things attractive that they would never have dreamed of them selves.

Porn is essentially robbing people of the right to develop their own sexuality.



> 3. I do think this is a problem, not driven by porn but in our parents and society not teaching the younger generation how to be healthy sexual beings.


It is a multifaceted complex problem, involving parents, government, society at large. Parents cannot control their children's sexuality and most parents do not understand the problem with porn, our porn culture, and the saturation of porn in society and how it is changing and shaping the way we view sex and relate to each other in the bedroom.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

I wonder if those who love, love, love porn and think its the best thing since sliced bread, have ever done any kind of research on the effects of it. I wonder if any of it rings a bell or hits home for them? Oh wait, of course not because its something they do not want to hear or believe. Its hard to hear that there might be a tiny bit of truth to something they love so much. Just like its hard for a druggie to hear that heroine is actually harmful not only to themselves but to those around them who love them. For some reason Shelley Lubben comes to mind about why its harmful, but don't google it, because its not what you want to hear. So stay away.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

trey69 said:


> I wonder if those who love, love, love porn and think its the best thing since sliced bread, have ever done any kind of research on the effects of it. I wonder if any of it rings a bell or hits home for them? Oh wait, of course not because its something they do not want to hear or believe. Its hard to hear that there might be a tiny bit of truth to something they love so much. Just like its hard for a druggie to hear that heroine is actually harmful not only to themselves but to those around them who love them.


:iagree: well said.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I'm still failing to understand the connection between being "better prepared for your sexuality" and "porn."

What in the hell does one have to do with the other?

I'm ashamed of my sexuality, so I turn to porn,

I wasn't raised to accept my sexual being, so I need porn,

I'm a man and am not able to express myself except through porn,

I'm a man and visual, so I need variety, therefore I go to porn,

Come on, are men so closed off and living their lives with blinders on that they NEED to turn to porn to be masculine, satisfy their urges and their need for variety?

What a cop-out.

Like an earlier poster said - men will "continue" to make excuses for their overuse of porn and it just doesn't matter how it affects anyone else, least of all the women in their lives who didn't sign up for it.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Many of the people who are in porn, come from not so good back grounds. Getting in porn is their escape from whatever pain they are feeling. The porn industry will glam up everything. That's how its get a lot women, interested. "This life looks good, it looks flashy, its looks expensive and I will live in a lavish lifestyle, someone will take care of me, and love me after all, I also see dollar signs and all my troubles are over!" Its all pretty much BS. And while they are living this lovely, lavish lifestyle their self esteem is being torn down more and more by it. 

I mean after all that is why most porn actors/actresses get into it in the first place, is they have no self esteem, they are constantly searching for love and to find themselves. They can't find it in that lifestyle. Its like,"look at me I hate myself so much that I have to have sex with every man/woman on film to make me feel better about myself." Bottom line is they make it come across as the people in porn are happy, that they secure with their looks and body, that you too can have a life of luxury,Really if that were the case they wouldn't need to broadcast it for everyone. Same for people who say, "Watch porn, its great, it will make you feel better, everyone does it." Sure for a time being it might take your mind off things, then what, then where are you? Right back to where you were before, feeling hopeless and helpless about your life and situation.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Porn is extremely harmful to society and relationships. I believe that men and women are sexual beings and they are socialised differently about sex which causes disconnect, however porn further harms real connections between men and women.
> 
> Women have every reason to feel threatened by porn, and it is recognised that porn addictions or issue surrounding porn are regularly the source of marital problems, most relationship experts will tell you this.
> 
> ...


Standing ovation!!!!!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Syrum said:


> I have found through my research that amature porn tends to mirror main stream porn, which of course is rapidly hard core, and still women in amature porn are objectified and seem to the ones giving pleasure (no not allways) rather then recieving. You only have to look at the way they have sex to maximise the camera angle to realise most women are not going to orgasm from what is being done to them.
> 
> I do not believe that amature porn will put commercial porn out of business.
> It sure seems to be making millions and millions, more then or as much as the hollywood movie industry.
> ...


If TAM is handing out gold stars today, I will nominate you. VERY well said and I totally agree.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Jamison said:


> MWIL, your statement, "excuse men for inexcusable behavior" Or excuse people for inexcusable behavior if you want to word it that way, I think thats exactly what is wrong with lots of people these days and why there are lots of unhappy marriages. I don't care what it all comes from, religion or not, it still a choice.
> 
> Whether its porn or something different, if a spouse is hurting or suffering because of another persons choices or behavior then that is a problem. Regardless of where it all started, why it started, or who started it etc.


Amen to that. You can pontificate all you want about the sexual problems created by religion or culture or blah blah and how harmless porn is but it does not help relationships that are adversely affected by porn. A lecture on sexual repression and the folly of objecting to porn does more harm than good.

I really like what Jamison says here. No matter what you views are about porn, the bottom line is, how is it effecting the most important relationships in adult life - spouse and children. You can chose to declare your right to view porn and the hell with how it effects those around you or you can chose to forgo the privilege of viewing porn for the sake of those important relationships. 

I wonder what is the proportion of married men who spend hrs every day viewing porn or who are addicted? It takes time away from interaction with their kids, wife and being engaged in work life effectively. How does it affect how they view sex with their partner and what they want sexually? How many woman lose respect for men who spend hrs viewing porn but cannot seem to muster the time or energy to fix a faucet leak. How does it effect a woman sexual desire for a man who views porn? 

We have not yet seen the full extent of internet porn on the ability of men and woman to maintain long-term relationships or even to enter into relationships. The generation coming of age is the first ever to have grown up with easy access to porn. Boys learn about sex from watching porn. Problem is porn is based solely on male pleasure which is OK if the desire is to have sex with men. It is far less helpful if a man wants to have sex with woman. 

If he expects the penis worship porn style, he will have a hard time holding onto a woman. But then again he can still go to bars and pick up woman who don't know how unskilled he is for one night stands. That should satisfy his primal urge to spread his seed but it will be a problem when he wants to find someone to love him, and have his kids.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Amen to that. You can pontificate all you want about the sexual problems created by religion or culture or blah blah and how harmless porn is but it does not help relationships that are adversely affected by porn. A lecture on sexual repression and the folly of objecting to porn does more harm than good.
> 
> I really like what Jamison says here. No matter what you views are about porn, the bottom line is, how is it effecting the most important relationships in adult life - spouse and children. You can chose to declare your right to view porn and the hell with how it effects those around you or you can chose to forgo the privilege of viewing porn for the sake of those important relationships.
> 
> ...



:iagree: and Amen!


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

One day women will be secure enough to handle their men watching a healthy dose of porn. It'll probably ne the same day men are comfortable with their women going solo on a routine basis. Porn in one form or another has been around for ages. Just like everything else in life, moderation is key. Also, your man looks at porn. Yes I'm talking to you. Forcing him to do it "underground" only adds to the likelihood it becomes a problem for him and you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo,
For me it has nothing to do with security. Read what Syrum wrote about the commercial porn industry. THAT is what I have a problem with.
Ack! I broke my own rule. I swore I would never post about porn again but I just did. I feel like The Godfather.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

"One day women will be secure enough to handle their men watching a healthy dose of porn".

And one day women and men will be secure enough within themselves to not feel the need to show everyone in the world their bodies and what they can do for a dollar on a screen.

Believe it or not, those people in porn are NOT secure that is why they have chosen something false to make them feel better. You take their job away and they are still left with being a shell of a person. Porn makes others believe they are secure.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Porn is extremely harmful to society and relationships. I believe that men and women are sexual beings and they are socialised differently about sex which causes disconnect, however porn further harms real connections between men and women.
> 
> Women have every reason to feel threatened by porn, and it is recognised that porn addictions or issue surrounding porn are regularly the source of marital problems, most relationship experts will tell you this.
> 
> ...


Yes, I could go on at length if I had time why about 90% of the article is based on biased statistics or statements like "it's widely believed", which means "We'd like you to believe, but don't have an authoritative statistic or authority to back us up, so we'll just assume that there is and move on". I know about such things because I use them myself all the time. I also know far, far more about the porn industry than the author of the article, and it's so replete with obvious fallacies and inaccuracies that it's staggering.

But, essentially, it's bunk. Politically-oriented bunk with a specific political goal in mind. I can respect it, but I can't agree with it -- at all.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Ah hubby, you are back and I see blissfully unchanged.
> 
> Ian will have more to say for sure. {/quote]
> 
> ...


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Kobo,
> For me it has nothing to do with security. Read what Syrum wrote about the commercial porn industry. THAT is what I have a problem with.
> Ack! I broke my own rule. I swore I would never post about porn again but I just did. I feel like The Godfather.


They keep pulling you back in! Porn can exist harmoniously in a relationship. If both people are secure in their relationship and its place 
in the relationship. What must be understood is that 90% of relationships have porn involved. How healthy that use of porn is is up to the couple. Whether men go to porn.com or view NSFW 
emailed images at work, our need for that stimulation will get filled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Can Ian be forced to write like Conrad? I kid, I kid. *Wink*


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> I have found through my research that amature porn tends to mirror main stream porn, which of course is rapidly hard core, and still women in amature porn are objectified and seem to the ones giving pleasure (no not allways) rather then recieving. You only have to look at the way they have sex to maximise the camera angle to realise most women are not going to orgasm from what is being done to them.


I'm anxious to see the data on your research. How many movies, in what medium, from which producers, during what time periods, and which particular specialty niches did you evaluate? Did you evaluate American commercial porn next to Japanese and European? Did you stick only with traditional DVD-producers, or did you include internet-based producers? What volume of amateur porn did you monitor, and by what criteria did you establish a degree of similarity or difference?

While I'm waiting for that, I will add that in one way you're right: commercial porn often shoots from angles that ordinary couples may not find useful in practice. That's because porn is ENTERTAINMENT, the people on camera are PERFORMERS, and the fact is that the women who work on these movies tend to be far more orgasmic and hypersexual than mainstream women. They'll freely admit when they had to fake an orgasm for dramatic effect. You see, they understand that they are creating FANTASY.



Syrum said:


> I do not believe that amature porn will put commercial porn out of business.


It won't. Thankfully, the market is still growing, and while amateur porn has its adherents, many are put off by the low production values and the prevalence of not-very-pretty people.



Syrum said:


> It sure seems to be making millions and millions, more then or as much as the hollywood movie industry.


And by that token, you have demonstrated that any "research" you have done is purely apocryphal, biased, and severely limited. Otherwise you would know that the mainstream entertainment industry dwarfs the adult entertainment industry by orders of magnitude. Porn in America was estimated to be about a $9 billion industry last year, give or take. I work for one of the biggest companies in "Big Porn", and while we're successful most indie hollywood studios make better money. 

Because -- and if you HAD done the research, you'd know this -- most of the American Porn Industry is made up of thousands of small-time, mom-and-pop (sometimes literally) operations. Small businesses. Folks with a website, or a web cam, or a book store, etc. Adult operations with a permanent staff large enough to be affected by Federal law (more than 15) count less than a hundred. 

But I'd love to see the statistics and source with which you back up your statement.



Syrum;259433
Untrue said:


> in fact men's expectations of their wives and girlfriends have changed, they are asking for the things or fantasizing about the things they now see in porn.[/B]


Um, yeah. That's kind of my point.

Let me put this into perspective: back when porn was a flickering film image on a movie screen -- say, 1975 -- there were only a very few producers, and only a few hundred movies were produced every year. At that time the number of women who saw these movies was less than 1%. In 1975 most people still thought oral sex was taboo, although thanks to Deep Throat that had started to decline.

But in 1975, for instance, it was still punishable by law or at least sanction to be gay or lesbian in many places. Gay sex and lesbian sex were seen by the mainstream as "perversions", despite the fact that millions of gays and lesbians weren't any more perverted than mainstream couples. 

But then the VHS explosion in the 1980s tripled the number of films produced overnight, and by 1985 porn was fast on its way to becoming "mainstreamed". At that point, oral was no longer considered taboo, anal was just "kinky", and American women started watching -- and being exposed to -- such things in far greater numbers. In the process, thanks to other elements of the sexual revolution, they had begun to get in touch with their bodies as instruments of pleasure, and porn became the prime method of instruction for them.

Fast forward a decade, and in 1995 you have a whole generation who came through their adolescence with some exposure to porn. What we do know is that the 20 year old in 1995 was far, far more educated and accepting of sexual variation than their 1975 counterpart, and much less likely to condemn pornography outright -- many were embracing it. 

So instead of being largely ignorant about the potentially wide area of sexuality, as the previous generations had been, the crowd in 1995 knew about oral and anal as a matter of course -- not only knew about it, but had a high expectation of some variation of it in their own relationships. 

Stuff like ATMs and double-anals (both of which are considered "niche" fare, not indicative of mainstream porn) did arise as the plethora of porn and the suddenly vast audience demanded them. And yes, especially in the 1990s some folks went to extremes. But there was little actually "new" about it; what was "new" was the fact that these things weren't considered taboo anymore. 

But it did raise men's expectations of women in bed. Now, please tell me why that's a bad thing, because otherwise I'm going to ask you to likewise condemn romance novels and soap operas for unfairly raising the expectations of women about the way men should behave in a relationship.

Yes, porn raised the bar on sexual expectations in marriages. But considering the average American couple's sex life in 1975, I dare say the bar needed raising. Good Goddess, can you honestly make a case for having a worse sex life?



Syrum said:


> in fact it is thought that young people see so many thousands of porn images before they are even 18, much of it quite hard core, and of course like pavlovs dog, this is created to turn them on and they are then conditioned to find things attractive that they would never have dreamed of them selves.


Actually, it educated them to the possibilities, and enlightened them to a part of their erotic selves they were previously unaware of, due to the profoundly abysmal sex education in our society. Your association with a simple "stimulus-response" experiment demonstrates an ignorance of the sophisticated nature of the desire/pursuit/courting matrices in the male and female psychology and physiology. 



Syrum said:


> Porn is essentially robbing people of the right to develop their own sexuality.


Porn is essentially allowing people the right to develop their own sexuality without seeking the permission or endorsement of anyone else.



Syrum said:


> It is a multifaceted complex problem, involving parents, government, society at large. Parents cannot control their children's sexuality and most parents do not understand the problem with porn, our porn culture, and the saturation of porn in society and how it is changing and shaping the way we view sex and relate to each other in the bedroom.


Actually, it's the anti-porn industry that's causing the problems. Porn is a legitimate part of the entertainment industry as a whole, and provides a valuable service to its consumers in an effort to entertain and educate. But then someone decides to make a buck by trying to tear down what they see as an indefensible industry, instilling guilt and fear into the population by citing bogus statistics or biased research, or just making outrageous statements that are essentially prudish fear-mongering, without having any real solid, unbiased evidence, and porn is forced to defend itself.

But I will grant you this: porn _is_ shaping the way we view sex and relate to each other in the bedroom. But whether this is a net-positive or a net-negative -- and for whom -- still remains to be seen.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

**sigh**

People tend to project.



Can we at least try not going on the crusades?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

trey69 said:


> I wonder if those who love, love, love porn and think its the best thing since sliced bread, have ever done any kind of research on the effects of it.


Why yes, yes I have. Quite a lot, actually. I suppose the question is, are those who hate, hate, hate on porn ready to accept the facts, or are they content to continue with vague generalities and apocryphal tales of doom? If you were to measure the OVERALL effects of porn in America, you'd discover that it is a positive development in many, many ways. There are winners and losers in every revolutionary change, of course, and there's no doubt that some feel this loss more acutely than others. But as far as the "effects of porn", I've studied them pretty exhaustively. Go on . . . 



Syrum said:


> I wonder if any of it rings a bell or hits home for them? Oh wait, of course not because its something they do not want to hear or believe. Its hard to hear that there might be a tiny bit of truth to something they love so much. Just like its hard for a druggie to hear that heroine is actually harmful not only to themselves but to those around them who love them. For some reason Shelley Lubben comes to mind about why its harmful, but don't google it, because its not what you want to hear. So stay away.



Look, I tried to be anti-porn -- when I started my research, that's the way I was leaning. But the fact is that when viewed objectively, porn has been a net positive on our society, just like feminism, gay rights, civil rights, computerization and other movements have been a net-positive on America. It's not that "I don't want to hear it" -- it's that I've seen both sides of the equation, and I can add pretty good for a Liberal Arts major.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

I don't have to go on....I know where I stand on the issue just as I'm sure you know where you stand....


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

I have a friend who has a friend who used to be in the porn industry. Yes was an adult film star. I would love to see a discussion go on between some people here and those who were in the industry. She and many many other are members of the Pink Cross Foundation.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AgentD said:


> I have a friend who has a friend who used to be in the porn industry. Yes was an adult film star. I would love to see a discussion go on between some people here and those who were in the industry. She and many many other are members of the Pink Cross Foundation.


You already are.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Brennan said:


> You already are.


Ohhh I must have missed something?! :scratchhead:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AgentD said:


> Ohhh I must have missed something?! :scratchhead:


I'm referring to Ian.....of course.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> You already are.


It's funny, I interview a lot of pornstars, past and present, as part of a larger research project among a number of colleagues, and while we're still collecting data on this, it appears (and this could change) from what we have so far that the attitude about the industry seems to be falling mainly into a few rough categories. And while this is by no means definitive, the early data suggests:

1) A female performer's attitude towards the porn industry is heavily colored by the time she spent in the industry, that is, those who did less than 12 movies before retiring tended to have a more negative view of the industry, while those who did 12 or more movies had a much more positive view. Those who did more than 100 movies had an overwhelming positive view of the industry. And it depended also on where they got their introduction to the industry: those who felt pressured into it by a boyfriend were more than twice as likely as those who entered the industry on their own to have a negative view of the porn industry.

What does this prove? Pornstars like being pornstars. People who weren't cut out to be pornstars don't usually make a career out of porn. And those women who made that decision independently of a mate were happier with that decision.

2) A negative view of porn among former and current performers seems directly tied into the religious upbringing of the performer in question. Those admitting to a fundamentalist or evangelical upbringing had a negative view of the industry about 2 1/2 times the rate of those raised in mainstream protestant sects. Catholics were only twice as likely to have a negative view, and Jews scored the lowest negative view, of the religions tracked. Only Atheistic/Agnostic had a lower negative.

That suggests that religion plays a pretty profound role in your view on porn, and of sexuality in general. Kind of a no-brainer, but it's good to see it expressed.

3) Another interesting fact: guess which determining factor from childhood seems to be a _better_ predictor of whether or not a woman will consider performing in porn as a career, a) suffering childhood sexual abuse or . . . b) being a cheerleader in high school or college? 

(So far, B beats out A by more than 3 to 1)


Still a LOT of data to come in . . . we've only gotten about 18% response so far, but those were some interesting tendencies in the research. Not enough to draw definite conclusions, but really very interesting nonetheless.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Does drill team count?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Does drill team count?


I'm not going to touch that one with a ten foot pole. </rimshot>


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

AgentD said:


> I have a friend who has a friend who used to be in the porn industry. Yes was an adult film star. I would love to see a discussion go on between some people here and those who were in the industry. She and many many other are members of the Pink Cross Foundation.


Its really 2 different discussions. How insiders feel about the industry is not the same as whether or not porn can be part of a successful relationship. I love the NFL. Former players hate how they are treated by the NFL. Having a discussion with them will not stop me from watching even though my wife probably would like me to. 

Listen, people need to quit fighting battles you can't win. Wrong or right doesn't make a difference in real life relationships. In all likelihood the man in the relationship will look at some sort of porn. You find his magazines, he moves to DVDs, you find his stash, he moves online. You find his files, he moves to streaming content. You use a URL filter, he frequents the strip club before returning home from "guys night out". The more control you try to have over it the more you lose it. In a healthy relationship the better approach would be to have it out in the open where you can actually have control. "Baby, I love being a part of this with you but the double penetration scenes are over the top for me. Can we stay away from that stuff".


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> Its really 2 different discussions. How insiders feel about the industry is not the same as whether or not porn can be part of a successful relationship. I love the NFL. Former players hate how they are treated by the NFL. Having a discussion with them will not stop me from watching even though my wife probably would like me to.
> 
> Listen, people need to quit fighting battles you can't win. Wrong or right doesn't make a difference in real life relationships. In all likelihood the man in the relationship will look at some sort of porn. You find his magazines, he moves to DVDs, you find his stash, he moves online. You find his files, he moves to streaming content. You use a URL filter, he frequents the strip club before returning home from "guys night out". The more control you try to have over it the more you lose it. In a healthy relationship the better approach would be to have it out in the open where you can actually have control. "Baby, I love being a part of this with you but the double penetration scenes are over the top for me. Can we stay away from that stuff".


OR....guys could stop trying to cram porn down their wives throats as if it is something a woman who has an issue with it should live with. I have an issue with commercial porn. If hubby started watching that, yeah, I'd have a problem and no, it wouldn't be something I should just "deal with".
Porn, strip clubs, sex chats, webcam, etc. Why again bother getting married if one women isn't enough? Geesh.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

All I know from my friends friend was...she was young when she got into it..she was niave..she was looking for an out and she didn't think much of herself. It looked fun and glamorous.

After being in it for awhile, not years and years either,it turned ugly. Producers, directors, most of the ones behind the scenes were mean and nasty, and they didn't care about the person, they cared about the money. Many women were abused when the cameras were off, by the producers and directors and she stated thats where alot of ugly things happened and took place, when the cameras were NOT rolling. One lady she knew was pushed down by a producer down a flight of stairs. Many were raped and had things doen to them off camera that they wouldn't even do on camrea. Some actors didn't stick to scripts (like they really had one) and would do things on film to actresses that clearly stated they weren't into. They knew this ahead of time. 

She told of how it starts out nice but usually doesn't end that way. Knew one girl who was 19 when she got into it and by the time she was 21 every awful thign you could think of was happening to her. Also this girl that is my friends friend, worked for well known and big named entertainment productions, not some film makers out back in a barn somewhere that was low budget. She actually worked for two different companies when she got out of one contract, thinking things at another production company would change or be different, but it was the same if not worse. 

I'm not saying ALL the companies are like that, just mentioning the ones that this particular person was in. She did say there is a very ugly side. Lots of drugs were involved, and she had said she knew someone who was slipped a drug in a drink she had, and later on found out it was a producer, and when she came to she had rope burns around her hands and wrists and she was bleeding. Also other horror stories that I was appalled by.

Some may say, oh these women are just women scorned and now they want to lie and tell a torrid tale of this industry. And while that may or may not be true. IMO, I do think many were young, they were looking for love and acceptance, and reaching out to find themselves. 

Yes, they may have thought the porn industry was the answer at that time in their lives. They learned over time they made a mistake, and after having enough they got out. They also know its a choice to go in that industry. Maybe they read before going in that it was glamorous, or maybe they read it wasn't and it was terrible, but figured that would never happen to them, who knows for sure.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> OR....guys could stop trying to cram porn down their wives throats as if it is something a woman who has an issue with it should live with. I have an issue with commercial porn. If hubby started watching that, yeah, I'd have a problem and no, it wouldn't be something I should just "deal with".
> Porn, strip clubs, sex chats, webcam, etc. Why again bother getting married if one women isn't enough? Geesh.


Point is that he is watching it. Whether you deal with it or not. Its not something that just get turned off. Your last statement goes back to my statement about being secure enough. We get married because we love you. It doesn't change our biology. Just like a women's biology requires us to continue courting them after marriage. If we don't , she'll get courted elsewhere via a text message...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> OR....guys could stop trying to cram porn down their wives throats as if it is something a woman who has an issue with it should live with. I have an issue with commercial porn. If hubby started watching that, yeah, I'd have a problem and no, it wouldn't be something I should just "deal with".
> Porn, strip clubs, sex chats, webcam, etc. Why again bother getting married if one women isn't enough? Geesh.


Well, that begs the question: is one woman enough?

He might have thought so when he got married, but that answer might change. In a lot of cases once he's already married and it's too late, the sex spigot gets turned down . . . or off entirely. In that case, can you argue that he has one whole woman, then?

Besides, could you really love a man who didn't like the female form at all, but loved you?

Watching porn in any form increases the testosterone levels in most men. This is usually a net gain for the women in their lives. Unless their men are made to feel guilty about it. 

But especially in cases where there just isn't enough sex to satisfy the man in question, what else should he do?


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

biological fartlogical! Lots of things are biological, doesn't mean you have to do this or that. 

Yeah I am a man who is a visual creature. Who gets a woody from ms. pretty down the street. Or even one on the porn sites, but who gives a crap. 

This is not really based on your occasional viewing of porn either, this is based on men who prefer it over their woman. Or who are addicted etc. I think thats where alot of people go haywire on it and get confused. Its NOT so much about the actual viewing of porn as it is some of the men who would rather be one with the computer than one with their wife. 

I'm not sure what is so hard to get about. I get it you love porn its the best thing ever, it doesn't mean women are insecure because you saw a naked woman with big T&A, its about the connection some people lose with their wives/family over it. Are there some women in the world who are insecure at the freaking drop of a hat because a pretty lady selling Avon is on TV, yep probably so, but this anit even about that.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> Point is that he is watching it. Whether you deal with it or not. Its not something that just get turned off. Your last statement goes back to my statement about being secure enough. We get married because we love you. It doesn't change our biology. Just like a women's biology requires us to continue courting them after marriage. If we don't , she'll get courted elsewhere via a text message...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He and I watch amatuer porn. If he were watching commercial porn that would be my dealbreaker. All porn to some people is a dealbreaker. Why does it seem acceptable to watch it then if it hurts the relationship? You say you marry us because you love us. Well to some women, porn hurts them and by ignoring her feelings and watching it anyway, that doesn't show love. 
Eh, I will never understand the whole "I need variety" thing. Maybe that's the crux of why porn is so appealing? Variety?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

AgentD said:


> All I know from my friends friend was...she was young when she got into it..she was niave..she was looking for an out and she didn't think much of herself. It looked fun and glamorous.
> 
> After being in it for awhile, not years and years either,it turned ugly. Producers, directors, most of the ones behind the scenes were mean and nasty, and they didn't care about the person, they cared about the money. Many women were abused when the cameras were off, by the producers and directors and she stated thats where alot of ugly things happened and took place, when the cameras were NOT rolling. One lady she knew was pushed down by a producer down a flight of stairs. Many were raped and had things doen to them off camera that they wouldn't even do on camrea. Some actors didn't stick to scripts (like they really had one) and would do things on film to actresses that clearly stated they weren't into. They knew this ahead of time.


I can think of a whole lot of industries where similar abuses happen. There's corruption in every industry, and the adult entertainment industry is an extension of the mainstream entertainment industry, where such things are pretty common, too. Heck, I've seen that kind of thing in the food service industry. 

It's not a place for wide-eyed idealists, and the work is a lot harder than a lot of people think. 



AgentD said:


> She told of how it starts out nice but usually doesn't end that way. Knew one girl who was 19 when she got into it and by the time she was 21 every awful thign you could think of was happening to her. Also this girl that is my friends friend, worked for well known and big named entertainment productions, not some film makers out back in a barn somewhere that was low budget. She actually worked for two different companies when she got out of one contract, thinking things at another production company would change or be different, but it was the same if not worse.
> 
> I'm not saying ALL the companies are like that, just mentioning the ones that this particular person was in. She did say there is a very ugly side. Lots of drugs were involved, and she had said she knew someone who was slipped a drug in a drink she had, and later on found out it was a producer, and when she came to she had rope burns around her hands and wrists and she was bleeding. Also other horror stories that I was appalled by.
> 
> Some may say, oh these women are just women scorned and now they want to lie and tell a torrid tale of this industry. And while that may or may not be true. IMO, I do think many were young, they were looking for love and acceptance, and reaching out to find themselves.


I agree. But I doubt they were looking for love and acceptance. I have yet to see the pornstar who goes to a set for love and acceptance. They did it for quick and easy cash which, it turns out, isn't quick OR easy. It's a rough job that requires a lot of attention to detail, quick thinking, and a recognition of when you're dealing with bad people -- and the brains to get out.

I'm not saying that your friend's experience is a huge exception -- it's not. It happens to a lot of people who have no business being in the business in the first place. The idea that a good body and a pretty style and a basic knowledge of how the parts fit together automatically makes you pornstar material is laughable. Maybe 1 woman in 100 has what it takes to perform sexually in front of other people (mostly bored strangers); maybe 1 in 1000 has the vocation to do it well. 



AgentD said:


> Yes, they may have thought the porn industry was the answer at that time in their lives. They learned over time they made a mistake, and after having enough they got out. They also know its a choice to go in that industry. Maybe they read before going in that it was glamorous, or maybe they read it wasn't and it was terrible, but figured that would never happen to them, who knows for sure.


Actually, it's just a job, as you'll discover if you talk to performers who've been around long enough to give it any thought. It's a well-paying job if you're good at it, a mediocre job if you aren't, and a lot depends upon the people you're dealing with.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Well, that begs the question: is one woman enough?
> 
> He might have thought so when he got married, but that answer might change. In a lot of cases once he's already married and it's too late, the sex spigot gets turned down . . . or off entirely. In that case, can you argue that he has one whole woman, then?
> 
> ...


Interesting thoughts, Ian. Okay, what about where sex ISN'T the issue or shall I say lack there of. Why porn then? Variety?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Jamison said:


> biological fartlogical! Lots of things are biological, doesn't mean you have to do this or that.


By all means, stop breathing in protest of some pretended biological need. Or defecation. Or metabolism. Stop menopause, or menstruation in a woman and then demand that it's her choice. Tell the neighborhood kid that puberty is a choice; he doesn't have to go along with it. 

Go ahead. I'll wait . . . 



Jamison said:


> Yeah I am a man who is a visual creature. Who gets a woody from ms. pretty down the street. Or even one on the porn sites, but who gives a crap.
> 
> This is not really based on your occasional viewing of porn either, this is based on men who prefer it over their woman. Or who are addicted etc. I think thats where alot of people go haywire on it and get confused. Its NOT so much about the actual viewing of porn as it is some of the men who would rather be one with the computer than one with their wife.
> 
> I'm not sure what is so hard to get about. I get it you love porn its the best thing ever, it doesn't mean women are insecure because you saw a naked woman with big T&A, its about the connection some people lose with their wives/family over it. Are there some women in the world who are insecure at the freaking drop of a hat because a pretty lady selling Avon is on TV, yep probably so, but this anit even about that.



No, it's about the equality of men and women to set their own gender's sexuality without the interference of the opposite gender. If fat is a feminist issue, then porn is a masculine one. It's not that porn is the greatest thing ever, but the problems from porn in a relationship (aside from clinical sexual compulsion, which is far, far more rare than the anti-porn industry would like you to believe) almost always stem from a) a poor understanding of male-female sexual dynamics b) inadequate communications between spouses or c) unrealistic expectations on both parties part (which feed back to a and b). Oh, and don't forget religion: since most mainstream religions are pretty clear about the "proper" role of sex (ritualistic breeding under divine auspices being the only legitimate expression), then religious view more suitable for the 19th century than the 21st are often at the root of a porn "problem".


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Well, that begs the question: is one woman enough?
> 
> He might have thought so when he got married, but that answer might change. In a lot of cases once he's already married and it's too late, the sex spigot gets turned down . . . or off entirely. In that case, can you argue that he has one whole woman, then?
> 
> ...


One woman SHOULD be enough - if not, then stay single. Why bother to get married? You can spread your seed around and have all the variety you want. And if one woman is NOT ENOUGH - then I deserve to know that before I commit to you, not after.

Porn wasn't really an issue for me until it REPLACED ME. Bottom line - that's not acceptable - I don't give a d**n who you are - man, woman, etc.

A man liking the female form and loving you are not totally exclusive. He can like the female form, as it pertains to you - not every single "other" naked woman out there. I appreciate the male form, but that doesn't mean I'm downloading it 24/7 online.

And it's usually not a net gain for spouses whose husband's porn usage is above anything considered normal (and yes I said normal). It actually causes more problems - since the man is more than likely doing more masturbating to it than using those "increased testosterone" levels on his wife, which in turn makes the porn more "valuable" to him. And in addition, while I'm sure MOST men know it's fantasy, it sure doesn't keep them from asking the wife if she would mind if he "pee'd on her" because he saw it on his latest BDSM porn site.

And what about all those men (and it is men mainly) that are visiting the live web cams and live sex shows where these are real people in real time? Is that innocent too? Wouldn't that time be better spent in paying attention to his wife and her needs?

Porn just sets up the rest of us "normal" women out there for failure from the get-go. 

And if he's not getting enuff at home - then what is HE doing that his wife has turned away from him? I realize there may be issues of a wife just not recognizing the importance of sexual intimacy in a marriage - but what about those that do and just don't feel like dropping and spreading it after he has not met any of their needs, or, she knows about his daily porn habit and feels rejected and undesirable to him?

There are always three sides to every story - yours, mine and the truth, which lies somewhere in the middle.

Like I've said a hundred (or a thousand times). When porn comes BETWEEN me and my husband, then it pisses me off!

And unfortunately...I'm not alone.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Interesting thoughts, Ian. Okay, what about where sex ISN'T the issue or shall I say lack there of. Why porn then? Variety?


As I said, watching porn increases testosterone production, which makes men more on-point in other ways: more ambitious, more aggressive in the workplace, overall more successful at the competitive areas of life.

As far as the other issue . . . well, if you have one pair of shoes, why on earth would you ever shop for another? Isn't one pair of shoes enough? Most guys get through life just fine with one, maybe two pairs. But women seem to want new ones like ALL THE TIME! 

It's not just variety -- sometimes you have to see what's out there to appreciate what you have.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Watching porn in any form increases the testosterone levels in most men. This is usually a net gain for the women in their lives.


Hmm.. I should really look into retail therapy. I wonder what my husband would think of that line of reasoning :lol:

Come on.. what's the use of science-oriented justification? It's still justification. Reminds me of that line men used to feed women about why they needed sex: "I need it for my health, honey" :rofl:


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> By all means, stop breathing in protest of some pretended biological need. Or defecation. Or metabolism. Stop menopause, or menstruation in a woman and then demand that it's her choice. Tell the neighborhood kid that puberty is a choice; he doesn't have to go along with it.
> 
> Go ahead. I'll wait . . .
> 
> ...


Tell it to me good! :smthumbup::rofl:


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> By all means, stop breathing in protest of some pretended biological need. Or defecation. Or metabolism. Stop menopause, or menstruation in a woman and then demand that it's her choice. Tell the neighborhood kid that puberty is a choice; he doesn't have to go along with it.
> 
> Go ahead. I'll wait . . .


All of these examples are NOT choices for anyone.

But PORN is a choice, just like drinking, illegal drugs, robbery, rape, murder - all choices.

Everyone has the right to their "choices," that's what being free is all about - but when those choices infringe on others - then you don't have that right. 

Choices that affect you alone - great.

Choices that affect me also - a problem if you can't and won't recognize the pain and hurt they cause me.

And dozens of husbands make this "choice" each and every day, all the while saying they love you, while clicking away...because after all - I'm doing it for you hun!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Jamison said:


> biological fartlogical! Lots of things are biological, doesn't mean you have to do this or that.
> 
> Yeah I am a man who is a visual creature. Who gets a woody from ms. pretty down the street. Or even one on the porn sites, but who gives a crap.
> 
> ...



Love ya! My point exactly...:smthumbup:


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree there are many things that are biological, and some are choices, perhaps some are both. However, my goodness hope its not biological for a man to rape. Maybe that's more about control or a choice? Or maybe biologically they just couldn't help it? Letting your fingers to do walking and typing in a webiste I would think is a choice. For a woman, putting on make up and perfume is probably a choice. Have a period is probably biological though. I guess there are some things biological and some choices, I think for some their choices get mixed up or confused with what they feel is biological.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> As I said, watching porn increases testosterone production, which makes men more on-point in other ways: more ambitious, more aggressive in the workplace, overall more successful at the competitive areas of life.
> 
> As far as the other issue . . . well, if you have one pair of shoes, why on earth would you ever shop for another? Isn't one pair of shoes enough? Most guys get through life just fine with one, maybe two pairs. But women seem to want new ones like ALL THE TIME!
> 
> It's not just variety -- sometimes you have to see what's out there to appreciate what you have.


I see what you are saying but wouldn't playing sports increase testosterone just as much and wouldn't make a anti-porn wife resentful?
As for my shoes, well, buying a new pair of shoes doesn't cause a rift in my marriage. As you have noticed my new avi....would that cause a rift?  But seriously, buying shoes vs. buying porn seems to be apples and oranges to me. 
and yes, I am officially The Godfather.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Hmm.. I should really look into retail therapy. I wonder what my husband would think of that line of reasoning :lol:
> 
> Come on.. what's the use of science-oriented justification? It's still justification. Reminds me of that line men used to feed women about why they needed sex: "I need it for my health, honey" :rofl:


No, no, no....it's I need it so I don't get prostate cancer.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> No, no, no....it's I need it so I don't get prostate cancer.


:rofl:

Wouldn't sticking a finger up his butt do the same thing?

:rofl:


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

"but wouldn't playing sports increase testosterone just as much?"

Yes, but its not the same as porn see. Porn would increase it so much more that they would blow your head off and right through the headboard during sex. :rofl:


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> No, no, no....it's I need it so I don't get prostate cancer.


I swear I once heard it was all about "mental health" :lol: Being a teen at the time, I actually pictured a lunatic


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

CallaLily said:


> "but wouldn't playing sports increase testosterone just as much?"
> 
> Yes, but its not the same as porn see. Porn would increase it so much more that they would blow your head off and right through the headboard during sex. :rofl:


Oh yea.. imagine all that "jiazz" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> I swear I once heard it was all about "mental health" :lol: Being a teen at the time, I actually pictured a lunatic


Well blue balls have driven men insane.

How's our treasury report looking? Did you receive the wire in from Switzerland yet? I have boat loads of cheap wine and Chunky Monkey to buy. Oh, and we need our t-shirts printed up.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

The post above prove Ian right. It's sad that you guys don't see it but meh, you'll learn.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> All of these examples are NOT choices for anyone.
> 
> But PORN is a choice, just like drinking, illegal drugs, robbery, rape, murder - all choices.
> 
> ...


And a woman has a "choice" to not have sex on her period. A woman has a "choice" to complain when her husband doesn't show her affection. Everything is a choice. Sure I can not look at porn. I can go to the strip club. I can go to Literotica read some stories and then go to the forum and engage in fantasy threads. Or I could sit at home with my wife and watch porn with her.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Kobo said:


> Point is that he is watching it. Whether you deal with it or not. Its not something that just get turned off. Your last statement goes back to my statement about being secure enough. We get married because we love you. It doesn't change our biology. Just like a women's biology requires us to continue courting them after marriage. If we don't , she'll get courted elsewhere via a text message...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A sizable proportion of men have many or all of the following problems: clueless when it comes to female sexuality (surveys point this out), boring, sexual selfishness, 20% have PE or ED, uncommunicative, unappreciative (they focus on what she is not doing, even though she has his kids, takes care of them, is a domestic drudge), 

feel they are "helping" the wife with chores (even though they are an adult sharing the same domicile and would be expected to share in chore in the place they live), lazy, easily angered, spend hrs playing video games. Yet they expect a porn performance.

But I have to agree porn is here to stay and men will watch porn and demand the kind of sex from the wife that he deserves and is entitled to to satisfy his porn-awakened male urges. 

They have every right to grab their balls and take them to prostitutes, strip clubs, pick up random women, leave the family for a hot babe who is willing to put on a show for you, if is not forthcoming from the wifey. 

Men stop whining and free yourselves from the shackles of females who want to reign in your sexuality so they can have orgasms. Time to show women that the male sexual expression cannot be suppressed by them. 

That will show the wife and be a lesson to all woman that they are not just getting married they are auditioning for an exotic actress and they had better step up or else!! :crazy:. Be proud of your male sexuality. 

Or stop watching porn and concentrate on your partner and have a mutually satisfying sexual relationship with her. You will be relieved of the endless cycle of cravings and anger, frustrations, and entitlements.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> He and I watch amatuer porn. If he were watching commercial porn that would be my dealbreaker. All porn to some people is a dealbreaker. Why does it seem acceptable to watch it then if it hurts the relationship? You say you marry us because you love us. Well to some women, porn hurts them and by ignoring her feelings and watching it anyway, that doesn't show love.
> Eh, I will never understand the whole "I need variety" thing. Maybe that's the crux of why porn is so appealing? Variety?


We have no argument. You are participating with him and recognizing his need for that stimulation. You saying no to commercial porn is the same as my post about "No double penetration". In your other statement the woman is ignoring his feelings. So why should the woman win and the man lose? Because porn is "bad"? You're handling it perfectly in your relationship IMO.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Retail therapy increases the estrogen in women which is beneficial to all, reachingshore, explain that to your hubby and go shopping!


If it does then you should. Why would he have a problem with it? Budget it in and stick to the budget. What's funny is you women love to say we don't show/share our feelings or needs but when a man does and it doesn't jive with that you think they should be he is ridiculed. Really sad.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Or stop watching porn and concentrate on your partner and have a mutually satisfying sexual relationship with her. You will be relieved of the endless cycle of cravings and anger, frustrations, and entitlements.


I made a point to mention healthy relationship in earlier post. Now continue with your straw man. I'm sure it felt good.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> I made a point to mention healthy relationship in earlier post. Now continue with your straw man. I'm sure it felt good.


Yes, you did mention a healthy sexual relationship. What Catherine was pointing out though was the relationships where a man turns to porn and ignores his wife. That will and does breed a heck of a lot of resentment. There are LOTS of wives here who have husbands who prefer porn and it becomes a dealbreaker for them yet there husbands refuse to stop this behavior.
You can take my example about commercial porn. I don't like it because I feel that it hurts women. You may disagree with that but those are my feelings. Therefore commercial porn in my house would be a dealbreaker for me. If my husband went behind my back and did it anyways, it would be hurtful and I would be very resentful. I think the wives who are being passed over for porn are in the same boat. They don't like what porn is doing to their marriages yet their spouse doesn't care. It breeds resentment at the very minimum.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Yes, you did mention a healthy sexual relationship. What Catherine was pointing out though was the relationships where a man turns to porn and ignores his wife. That will and does breed a heck of a lot of resentment. There are LOTS of wives here who have husbands who prefer porn and it becomes a dealbreaker for them yet there husbands refuse to stop this behavior.
> You can take my example about commercial porn. I don't like it because I feel that it hurts women. You may disagree with that but those are my feelings. Therefore commercial porn in my house would be a dealbreaker for me. If my husband went behind my back and did it anyways, it would be hurtful and I would be very resentful. I think the wives who are being passed over for porn are in the same boat. They don't like what porn is doing to their marriages yet their spouse doesn't care. It breeds resentment at the very minimum.



In your relationship he doesn't need to look at commercial porn. You gave him amateur porn. See you didn't say go against your strong urge and deny yourself. You allowed him to scratch that itch in a way that doesn't hurt you. What you have is much different than saying no porn, ever. As for Catherine, she should quote someone else that says porn should be used at the expense of the wife or in an unhealthy relationship. I don't subscribe to punishing the many for the few. There is a reason that porn drives the internet. It's not because only the crazies watch it.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> In your relationship he doesn't need to look at commercial porn. You gave him amateur porn. See you didn't say go against your strong urge and deny yourself. You allowed him to scratch that itch in a way that doesn't hurt you. What you have is much different than saying no porn, ever. As for Catherine, she should quote someone else that says porn should be used at the expense of the wife or in an unhealthy relationship. I don't subscribe to punishing the many for the few. There is a reason that porn drives the internet. It's not because only the crazies watch it.


Erm, eh, gak, how do I put this....ahem **clears throat** it was ME who suggested amateur porn as a way to spice up our sex life. Porn for him does very little. He finds it lame and overhyped. So I found some websites that have real couples having sex and we watch it together. He goes nuts seeing how turned on I get. I am a voyeur so "watching" others have sex is a huge turn on for me. For him, it does very little. He's more of a "real deal" kind of guy. 
Not sure why you thought I "allowed him to scratch an itch". I'M his itch. Pretty awesome.
Now having said, his "thing" is to visibly undress 20 something women. He likes to use his imagination and porn leaves little. Yes, it bothers me and the reason being is that he lied about doing this for our entire marriage. He said everybody does it and it is no big deal. While I agree that most men do this, if it is no big deal....why lie for 17 years? Finding out just a few months ago was pretty hurtful. I was/am 100% honest about my sexuality. He knows EVERYTHING about my past, number of partners, my likes and dislikes, my dealbreakers and what I love. He knows I was a participant in an adult film. He knows it all. So why the 17 year lie? 
We all have our "thing" is what I am trying to point out. I think how we go about it makes it either okay or not okay. I was open about being a voyeur. He is/was fine with it. He on the other hand was not open about his thing, so yes, it does sting and now it has become sort of a sticking point with me. It does feel like a rejection of sorts. It's hard to explain but I can understand where alot of the wives come from when their husbands essentially turn to other women in porn and cover up that aspect of themselves. 
Am I making any sense here? :scratchhead:


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> I'm anxious to see the data on your research. How many movies, in what medium, from which producers, during what time periods, and which particular specialty niches did you evaluate? Did you evaluate American commercial porn next to Japanese and European? Did you stick only with traditional DVD-producers, or did you include internet-based producers? What volume of amateur porn did you monitor, and by what criteria did you establish a degree of similarity or difference?


I have read numerous studies, written a paper for university purposes, done tons of research, and watched quite a few different mediums. But please do not kid your self about the most popular medium and most popular movies and what they are providing for the average porn consumer. It's not healthy, it's not reality and it's down right degrading to women. it's about doing things to women that women do not naturally want to partake in, and then leaving men with these unrealistic measures.



> While I'm waiting for that, I will add that in one way you're right: commercial porn often shoots from angles that ordinary couples may not find useful in practice. That's because porn is ENTERTAINMENT, the people on camera are PERFORMERS, and the fact is that the women who work on these movies tend to be far more orgasmic and hypersexual than mainstream women. They'll freely admit when they had to fake an orgasm for dramatic effect. You see, they understand that they are creating FANTASY.


Well porn isn't just a fantasy, because the woman in porn is a real person. She was there and it did happen to her and IMO it doesn't help men have respect for women. to me it's like cheating, you are using the unfortunate situation of another (the porn actress) to have orgasm, when you should be focusing on how to have a real connection with your partner and a great sex life.



> And by that token, you have demonstrated that any "research" you have done is purely apocryphal, biased, and severely limited. Otherwise you would know that the mainstream entertainment industry dwarfs the adult entertainment industry by orders of magnitude. Porn in America was estimated to be about a $9 billion industry last year, give or take. I work for one of the biggest companies in "Big Porn", and while we're successful most indie hollywood studios make better money.


I read that overall the porn industry makes a lot of money. if it's not true why are doing it.




> Let me put this into perspective: back when porn was a flickering film image on a movie screen -- say, 1975 -- there were only a very few producers, and only a few hundred movies were produced every year. At that time the number of women who saw these movies was less than 1%. In 1975 most people still thought oral sex was taboo, although thanks to Deep Throat that had started to decline.
> 
> But in 1975, for instance, it was still punishable by law or at least sanction to be gay or lesbian in many places. Gay sex and lesbian sex were seen by the mainstream as "perversions", despite the fact that millions of gays and lesbians weren't any more perverted than mainstream couples.
> 
> ...


.

Your post reads like someone who's heavily invested in the porn industry and thus can't see the issues clearly.

Firstly, it's widely known that women in the porn industry are treated poorly. Somewhere you say that after making 100's of films the women are more likely to comment positively on the industry. Well DUH:scratchhead:, they are heavily invested in it and profiting from it, they want more work, and they need to have the public buy the image they are projecting.

What valuable service does porn provide? I think as a society we have been conditioned to see porn as the norm and are constantly bombarded with the pornification of women. 

Porn doesn't educate any one, porn is the junk food of sex, it may fill you up (fill a need) but it has no nutritional value. Any one watching porn who thinks it's good sex education is going to be bad in bed, full stop. Porn makes people into selfish bad lovers.

Everyone is influenced and shaped by society and media, if young people are watching porn it is shaping how they view sex and sexual relationships, that is not freedom, quite the opposite.

You can be open about sex and love sex, embrace the sexual side of things, discuss sex and have healthy sex education with out porn. in fact porn and healthy is an oxy moron.

As for people suggesting that only insecure people have a problem with porn. Untrue. I find many women who are unsure and insecure go along with watching porn, even though they don't like it and it makes them feel inadequate, simply because they are not secure enough in themselves or their relationship to say it isn't OK. I am secure enough about myself to know that I am worth it, to know that if something hurts me or disturbs me, my partner should care about it and me more than getting off to porn. If not and hes more interested in ensuring he can masturbate to images of women on screen, well he can do that by himself.

Many women post about this issue, it's obviously a huge problem. porn is not helping couples connect and have good sex with each other. How can introducing a third party in the bedroom enhance the closeness between to people?

It would be like me saying to my SO, I really enjoy having sex but i need variety and the only way i can now get off is if I have a giant cardboard cut out of a different ridiculously young muscly big di(ked man at the foot of the bed and i have to imagine him plowing his giant penis into me, and i have to imagine him doing things you aren't comfortable with or that don't turn you on. Ok honey?

Most men would be very uncomfortable with this image hanging over their heads and yet men expect women to be comfortable with porn.

Oh and it's typical response to call someone who objects to porn prudish, it's a great way to silence people. However I am anything but prudish, I know I'm actually sexually adventurous, love to please my partner, have a very high sex drive, like variety, will try almost anything. I just take acception to an industry that exploits women, and teaches men how to be bad in bed. 

I want to have sex with someone who values me and values women in general, I want to feel safe with them, so we can explore our sex life in a healthy way. I have my own unconventional kinks and so does he, we work on our fantasies together.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Erm, eh, gak, how do I put this....ahem **clears throat** it was ME who suggested amateur porn as a way to spice up our sex life. Porn for him does very little. He finds it lame and overhyped. So I found some websites that have real couples having sex and we watch it together. He goes nuts seeing how turned on I get. I am a voyeur so "watching" others have sex is a huge turn on for me. For him, it does very little. He's more of a "real deal" kind of guy.
> Not sure why you thought I "allowed him to scratch an itch". I'M his itch. Pretty awesome.
> Now having said, his "thing" is to visibly undress 20 something women. He likes to use his imagination and porn leaves little. Yes, it bothers me and the reason being is that he lied about doing this for our entire marriage. He said everybody does it and it is no big deal. While I agree that most men do this, if it is no big deal....why lie for 17 years? Finding out just a few months ago was pretty hurtful. I was/am 100% honest about my sexuality. He knows EVERYTHING about my past, number of partners, my likes and dislikes, my dealbreakers and what I love. He knows I was a participant in an adult film. He knows it all. So why the 17 year lie?
> We all have our "thing" is what I am trying to point out. I think how we go about it makes it either okay or not okay. I was open about being a voyeur. He is/was fine with it. He on the other hand was not open about his thing, so yes, it does sting and now it has become sort of a sticking point with me. It does feel like a rejection of sorts. It's hard to explain but I can understand where alot of the wives come from when their husbands essentially turn to other women in porn and cover up that aspect of themselves.
> Am I making any sense here? :scratchhead:


He probably didn't want you to feel the way you do now. He didn't realize that you may have been OK with it if he was up front about it. It truly isn't a big deal for men to look at women on the street and think about "what I'd do to that". He may have even thought it was a given.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> He probably didn't want you to feel the way you do now. He didn't realize that you may have been OK with it if he was up front about it. It truly isn't a big deal for men to look at women on the street and think about "what I'd do to that". He may have even thought it was a given.


True, but when I asked him if he ever has a fantasy about other women he gave me this look of repulsion and then some long lecture about "It's only you, I've only thought of you, I've loved you since we were 9, blah, blah, blah". I asked him that when we were 25. I thought he was weird and would often think it sounded odd. His actions backed it up though. He doesn't like porn and he literally never had any around, he cannot have sex without love, he is very good looking but socially awkward so meeting women is weird for him. Again, it all seemed odd to me but that was just him. I grew to really and truly believe him. I thought, "Wow, I guess I AM the only one for him. How lucky am I?"
Errrr, yeah. It was a lie and a huge one at that and now pushing 40, it leaves me feeling anxious and somewhat rejected. Is that logical? Probably not but that is how I feel.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Wooh, this thread grew fast. Yes, people watching porn but nit working on their relationship is bad, should not happen. 

Now, about men watching porn. As I said before, I have plenty of sex but still watch porn. All kinds. Why? Because it has sex and people enjoying it, because I can't expect my gf to do it always when I want to, because I need to jerk off, because it turns me on and in turn makes me want my gal more. Not much else. That and I picture me and my gal doing that stuff. I watch porn almost every day to be honest. Not that I need to, but because it's easier than fapping without anything there and I enjoy seeing the act of sex. Furthermore, a lot of positions, tricks and other things on how to please a woman, I learnt from porn. The rest from my gf. But I can tell you, without porn I sure as he'll would not have known about g-spots. 

And nope, porn isn't the only thing that influences people. Can't believe I'm saying this here, but I started anally before I ever jerked off myself. This without ever watching porn. Because it was easy for me I didn't understand why my gal didn't want to years later. Wasnt until later that I saw actual anal scenes in porn movies. 

And then there is the fact that my girl watches some porn solo as well. She is one who fantasizes about other men. She has always been like that, admire her for that, can't think about other women myself. Even the women on screen are my gal in my mind. Don't see the stars. 

As usual, only empirical evidence. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Wooh, this thread grew fast. Yes, people watching porn but nit working on their relationship is bad, should not happen.
> 
> Now, about men watching porn. As I said before, I have plenty of sex but still watch porn. All kinds. Why? Because it has sex and people enjoying it, because I can't expect my gf to do it always when I want to, because I need to jerk off, because it turns me on and in turn makes me want my gal more. Not much else. That and I picture me and my gal doing that stuff. I watch porn almost every day to be honest. Not that I need to, but because it's easier than fapping without anything there and I enjoy seeing the act of sex. Furthermore, a lot of positions, tricks and other things on how to please a woman, I learnt from porn. The rest from my gf. But I can tell you, without porn I sure as he'll would not have known about g-spots.
> 
> ...


Epic Fail. You're basically backing up Syrum's post without realizing it. Re-read.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Epic Fail. You're basically backing up Syrum's post without realizing it. Re-read.


 Lol.

And thank you.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Epic Fail. You're basically backing up Syrum's post without realizing it. Re-read.


Well, not exactly. I was just posting my experience with porn. That the problems we had came way before me watching porn and that we fixed it before I started watching. Like I said, I did stuff with myself before I was 13, that was the age I first jerked off. First porn was when I was 19 really (had seen a rare magazine here and there, some snippets of sex on tv). Had that problem when I was 18 with my gf. 

As for talks, like I said in another thread, we tend to talk a lot, but less about sex until recently. In the past few years she has started watching a tad more as she has opened up to talking about it. And she watches mostly homosexual (gay and lesbian) stuff. Have learnt more about her sexuality in the past few years than in the 6 before. Why? Because she herself feels comfortable an realizes now that talking about feelings is important. 

But I'm not here to talk about who is right. I believe Brennan asked why men watch even though they hav plenty of sex and that is why. Even if I do not watch porn (regular periods of me not in the mood for happen and well, sometimes I'd rather just jerk for months at a time) me fantasizing about sex with my girl turns me on. As I said, if it were up to me multiple times a day. But I can't realistically expect that. I feel that that would put too much pressure. And I'm already super happy with almost every day. Don't get me wrong. And she likes the fact that she easily arouses me. And since the incident when I was young, we've never done anything she did not want to (I'm open to anything). 

So, take my post for what it is. Just me saying how I experienced it. So far no damage in our relationship by it. It might have altered sexuality and what we would have tried, but she is always interested in new positions, especially if we fail and laugh about it  I never in bed fantasize about her doing random stuff as well. If I want to try something, I show her and she decides if we try. I watch he intently, to see if she likes it and ask her during and afterwards. If not, we don't do it again. 

Nowadays she is sometimes in the mood for rougher stuff. Not me who asked. She has enjoyed being called names and having her ass spanked etc, but I just can't be mean to her with rougher stuff. Guess where I learned how to play rough. From sites about that stuff and Tristram Taormino's Expert Guide to blablabla. 

Oh, btw, that said, I mostly watch amateur, Japanese and some of the stars I like. Some of the hardcore (not talking about kink) stuff is downright nasty and do not enjoy when I feel the woman is exploited. Just my experience, use it for whatever purpose you want. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Hmm. For those people who are 100% against porn and see it as an unnessesary thing, I am curious. Have you ever turned down trying anything he has wanted?? I do mean anything. I kinda think that porn can be an outlet for some guys. Not just on sex in general, but in the regaurd that it can let guys see and enjoy things that their wives are not interested in. If this is the case, maybe try the things he wants to do. (within reason. Things like three somes that can endager a marriage are obviously exempt from what I am talking about) I mean really I don't see the big deal in trying things. I am a pretty open person and I think that being open to new things is a good thing. However if you are not, there is nothing wrong with getting what you want through porn. If you are not willing to do something, is it not wrong to make, or force your partner to do without??

For those who have, or are watching. There is a fine line between enjoying something and being obssessed with it. I will admit that I DO watch porn. I enjoy it. I watch, mostly things that my wife is not interested in trying. However, I dont masturbate but about half the time that I watch. I don't save anything, I dont have any kind of collection or anything like it. And I dont watch but maybe 30 minutes to an hour a week, IF that. Acctually probably less then that. So I dont belive that watching porn is a bad thing. I think that it is when people use it too much. 

As far as making unreasonable expectations of the women. I can kinda see that, however, if a man has watched porn before, and they see something they wanna try.....whats wrong with trying it?? (again, within reason) I mean if a women watches a romantic movie or something, and sees a nice romantic date, or romantic get-a-way and thinks to herself. That would be so great. Even thou the guy in the movie isnt the guy you are married to. So ultimatly you are setting your man up for failure. Yes, some men will live up to that, a lot will fail to live up to it. But men dont tell women not to watch romantic movies or read novels or anything like that. (generalization I know, but works as far as people I have known and met) We do the best we can to be that man for you.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> I have read numerous studies, written a paper for university purposes, done tons of research, and watched quite a few different mediums. But please do not kid your self about the most popular medium and most popular movies and what they are providing for the average porn consumer. It's not healthy, it's not reality and it's down right degrading to women. it's about doing things to women that women do not naturally want to partake in, and then leaving men with these unrealistic measures.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why are your wants/needs worth more than your husbands?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Nearly all women you watch in porn are exploited. 

Firstly most women in the porn industry are very young, not to say some aren't older, but most are young, between the ages of 18 and 22 I believe. Show me someone who really knows what they are doing at that age, someone who isn't easily manipulated and influenced and it will be a true rarity.

Second- most of the women (or should i say young girls) in porn come from poor socioeconomic back grounds. This tells us that women with a lot of real choices don't choose the porn industry. It isn't chosen because it's a good choice, it's usually young women without many choices who are in the industry. that is exploitation in it self.

Third- the women in porn often have substance abuse problems. Thus they are being exploited yet again, and are often hooked on drugs by people in the industry.

Fourth-, the majority of women in the industry, have been sexually abused. And have some obvious real emotional issues stemming from this. 

Fifth-, I read that half of all trafficed women (sex slaves) end up in the sex industry, thus when you watch porn you could well be watching a woman who is a slave.

Six- women in the industry are often abused, pressured to do things they don't want, and raped.

Lastly porn commodifies women, women are not property to be bought or sold they are people. The women on screen are real people, they probably have the same dreams and desires as everyone else.

When you watch porn you exploit these women all over again and help create the market for something that treats women as sub human.

Much is what is considered mainstream now is what used to be hard core, and it just keeps shifting. 

I quite like rough sex, and liked it before I watched any porn, and still like it, however, I do realize that my desires were heavily influenced by social media, we are all shaped by the world around us. 

I don't believe porn helps men have real human connections with women, or treat women the way they deserve to be treated. It in fact teaches men that women are there for their sexual gratification, that it's Ok to use them and call them ****s etc, and that connection isn't important, that their selfish needs are all that matters and their next orgasm.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Why are your wants/needs worth more than your husbands?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Huh? I never said my needs or wants are more important then my fiance. In fact I don't think hes complaining. 

I have a high sex drive, and I have a need for real love and connection, and I believe he does too.

I don't bring third parties into the bedroom, I concentrate on him. Instead of thinking about how other people turn me on, I think about what he does that turns me on, and I share this with him. Sometimes it's difficult to open your self up like that as a woman (it can be terrifying), but I want us to have a good sex life, be honest, and really focus on giving each other pleasure. He shares his fantasies with me, at least I'm very sure he does. We have shared a lot of stuff.

If he needs to participate in something that involves other people, specifically women who I believe are being exploited, he doesn't care about the hurt this would cause me and would do this in spite of how I felt, then he's really not the guy for me. I wouldn't be with a man who could not go without porn and would choose something like that over real sex and real connection to a woman. To me that is just so weird, and the justifications for it are very strange. 

If his needs weren't being met sexually I would want him to tell me and we could work on that together.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Nearly all women you watch in porn are exploited.
> 
> Firstly most women in the porn industry are very young, not to say some aren't older, but most are young, between the ages of 18 and 22 I believe. Show me someone who really knows what they are doing at that age, someone who isn't easily manipulated and influenced and it will be a true rarity.
> 
> ...


It might be just me but the big names like Stoya, Bobbi Starr and a few others don't seem exploited. Well, if you can show me anything that suggests they are, and I would seriously consider not watching them anymore. It might be just me, but they really seem to have a spark in their eyes that I only see in my girl when we have sex. Something like complete inhibition I guess. 
I'm not gonna say that I'm an amazing mind reader etc, but most of the time it seems clear who is getting exploited and who is not. 

As for my girl being my sex toy, never thought of her that way. I highly respect women, yes, even prostitutes. Life choices wont make me think less of you. Would never do anything that would make my girl feel like an object.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Huh? I never said my needs or wants are more important then my fiance. In fact I don't think hes complaining.
> 
> I have a high sex drive, and I have a need for real love and connection, and I believe he does too.
> 
> ...


Yes you did say that when you implied that you wouldn't be with someone who liked to look at porn. So why does your dislike of porn overrule his like of porn?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Draguna said:


> It might be just me but the big names like Stoya, Bobbi Starr and a few others don't seem exploited. Well, if you can show me anything that suggests they are, and I would seriously consider not watching them anymore. It might be just me, but they really seem to have a spark in their eyes that I only see in my girl when we have sex. Something like complete inhibition I guess.
> I'm not gonna say that I'm an amazing mind reader etc, but most of the time it seems clear who is getting exploited and who is not.
> 
> As for my girl being my sex toy, never thought of her that way. I highly respect women, yes, even prostitutes. Life choices wont make me think less of you. Would never do anything that would make my girl feel like an object.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Orange pickers get exploited every day, we still eat oranges. The exploitation argument is a cover for I don't want my husband looking at some young girl doing backflips on a d!&? And then coming to bed comparing me to her. Which most normal men don't do. If you look at who gets exploited in porn you'll see the straight male talent at the top end of the list.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Drayvius said:


> Hmm. For those people who are
> 
> 
> > 100% against porn and see it as an unnessesary thing, I am curious. Have you ever turned down trying anything he has wanted?? I do mean anything.
> ...


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Yes you did say that when you implied that you wouldn't be with someone who liked to look at porn. So why does your dislike of porn overrule his like of porn?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


well why does my need or want to suck other men's co<ks over ride his need for me to be faithful?:scratchhead:
















I don't want or need this - it's an example.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Orange pickers get exploited every day, we still eat oranges. The exploitation argument is a cover for I don't want my husband looking at some young girl doing backflips on a d!&? And then coming to bed comparing me to her. Which most normal men don't do. If you look at who gets exploited in porn you'll see the straight male talent at the top end of the list.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Exploitation is never OK. I care about it at all levels, there is just something in me that feels extra sickened about it when it's happening to a supposedly free thinking (ha) informed (ha again) western society. I care about the exploitation of many people, and would say I care very much about the human rights of all people, not just porn stars. Porn is just an obvious symptom of a society where profits rule and people matter very little.

However I never pretended to be OK with porn minus the exploitation, I never hid this and I made my feelings clear on that. 

I am secure enough to know that as a woman I deserve a man who is willing to treat all women with respect, and will not put something like porn ahead of my feelings, just as my man deserves someone equally respectful.

Why is the exploitation and commodification of women so Ok? Why are we so blase about it? For some reason it's Ok to question the exploitation of people everywhere except in the porn industry or else you are a prude.

I myself have watched porn and gotten turned on by it, but I know in my core as a human being it's just wrong on many levels to consume porn just for the sake of aiding my orgasm. I have a brain and an imagination for a reason, I know men do too, I just choose to use it. BTW, I masturbate every single day and have a high sex drive. How lazy and selfish have we become as a society? and then we wonder why our relationships are failing.:scratchhead:


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Just random thoughts:



> you are using the unfortunate situation of another (the porn actress) to have orgasm, when you should be focusing on how to have a real connection with your partner and a great sex life.


This I agree with, PROVIDED it's NOT a shot at all the people who enjoy watching porn. If we take "women need emotional connection to have sex with a man, whereas men need sex to have emotional connection with a woman" as true then:

1. Thank GOD that masturbating doesn't equal love to a man LOL
2. A man who prefers watching porn to having sex with a woman as a rule, for some reason doesn't want that emotional connection with her. If it's temporary = he may resent her, and oftentimes he may not even realize it himself or even identify what it is he resents her for.

It's NOT porn's fault. Frankly, Porn is a scapegoat.



> Porn doesn't educate any one, porn is the junk food of sex, it may fill you up (fill a need) but it has no nutritional value. Any one watching porn who thinks it's good sex education is going to be bad in bed, full stop. Porn makes people into selfish bad lovers.


Porn doesn't make anyone anything. People make themselves what they are. If a person's nature is selfish, he/she will be a selfish bad lover. Such a person will justify to themselves their selfish nature by pointing out certain porn movie types and go "This is sex".

If a person at their core is not selfish, they will watch porn as a sort of variety catalog, out of which they choose what turns them on/what they would want to try. Not only that, they will adjust their own desires/wants to those of their partner's.



> What valuable service does porn provide?


I don't want to go into a topic of men being supposedly unable to be monogamous. Irritating! LOL I know about temptation, though. When my husband is away for 3 months, and just in case he has problems with the "mind over matter" thing, I'd much much much rather him watch porn to him going to strip clubs or worse.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

"it's NOT a shot at all the people who enjoy watching porn". 

Its not about watching the occasional porn. Its more about when a person prefers it over their spouse. Thats when its becomes a real issue. It has been stated many times before on here that its more about when someone would rather use it than to be connected with their spouse. For whatever reason some people just don't get that part of it.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Just random thoughts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think you read my post about how porn is currently shaping the sex lives of many people. young people watch thousands of porn images before they even turn 18. this does effect them. 

Advertising effects us, companies spend millions on advertising because it gets results, it changes the way we buy and view things, why wouldn't watching thousands of porn images have the same effects? why would people be immune from porn?




> If a person at their core is not selfish, they will watch porn as a sort of variety catalog, out of which they choose what turns them on/what they would want to try. Not only that, they will adjust their own desires/wants to those of their partner's.


watching porn does not enhance the ability of someone to be a good sex partner, many of the men in this thread alone have asked the question or implied that wanting women to do the things in porn is a good thing or some sort of sexual advancement (big fat lol). so even by their own admission that makes your point void, because it is obviously making them very selfish.



> I don't want to go into a topic of men being supposedly unable to be monogamous. Irritating! LOL I know about temptation, though. When my husband is away for 3 months, and just in case he has problems with the "mind over matter" thing, I'd much much much rather him watch porn to him going to strip clubs or worse.


Wow, I happen to have more faith in men then that. Women also cheat, but neither have to do it, it's a choice. If I really believed men couldn't control themselves I'd never have another relationship, and I'd never leave the house.

Does every body really believe men are that weak? How sad! I happen to believe that men are strong and more capable then that.

Instead of excusing poor behaviour from men (or women), why not hold them accountable for that they do and let them know we have faith in them?


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Draguna said:


> It might be just me but the big names like Stoya, Bobbi Starr and a few others don't seem exploited. Well, if you can show me anything that suggests they are, and I would seriously consider not watching them anymore. It might be just me, but they really seem to have a spark in their eyes that I only see in my girl when we have sex. Something like complete inhibition I guess.
> I'm not gonna say that I'm an amazing mind reader etc, but most of the time it seems clear who is getting exploited and who is not.
> 
> As for my girl being my sex toy, never thought of her that way. I highly respect women, yes, even prostitutes. Life choices wont make me think less of you. Would never do anything that would make my girl feel like an object.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Try watching Price of Pleasure Preview | Media Education Foundation this.

Quite long but well worth it.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> Hmm. For those people who are 100% against porn and see it as an unnessesary thing, I am curious. Have you ever turned down trying anything he has wanted?? I do mean anything. I kinda think that porn can be an outlet for some guys. Not just on sex in general, but in the regaurd that it can let guys see and enjoy things that their wives are not interested in. If this is the case, maybe try the things he wants to do. (within reason. Things like three somes that can endager a marriage are obviously exempt from what I am talking about) I mean really I don't see the big deal in trying things. I am a pretty open person and I think that being open to new things is a good thing. However if you are not, there is nothing wrong with getting what you want through porn. If you are not willing to do something, is it not wrong to make, or force your partner to do without??
> 
> For those who have, or are watching. There is a fine line between enjoying something and being obssessed with it. I will admit that I DO watch porn. I enjoy it. I watch, mostly things that my wife is not interested in trying. However, I dont masturbate but about half the time that I watch. I don't save anything, I dont have any kind of collection or anything like it. And I dont watch but maybe 30 minutes to an hour a week, IF that. Acctually probably less then that. So I dont belive that watching porn is a bad thing. I think that it is when people use it too much.
> 
> As far as making unreasonable expectations of the women. I can kinda see that, however, if a man has watched porn before, and they see something they wanna try.....whats wrong with trying it?? (again, within reason) I mean if a women watches a romantic movie or something, and sees a nice romantic date, or romantic get-a-way and thinks to herself. That would be so great. Even thou the guy in the movie isnt the guy you are married to. So ultimatly you are setting your man up for failure. Yes, some men will live up to that, a lot will fail to live up to it. But men dont tell women not to watch romantic movies or read novels or anything like that. (generalization I know, but works as far as people I have known and met) We do the best we can to be that man for you.


Interesting you should ask that question.

Have I tried anything and everything my husband has asked of me in the sex department, ummm...let's see.

- He wanted to experience sex with men - WE DID

- He fantasized about threesomes - WE DID

- Wanted to do anal - WE DID

- Wanted me to dress up in leather and ****k him - WE DID

- Wanted some "other" things that shall remain nameless here - WE DID

So my answer would be YES - I'm extremely open and adventurous and will try just about anything once - don't say ewww and turn my nose up, etc. And most of what we've tried I actually enjoyed also.

I've looked at the type of porn he is viewing and he's all over the map - I looked to see "if" I was failing in any department and he wasn't getting what he wanted from me and guess what - I wasn't. I've not only been open but tried just about every type of kink he wanted to do that he was looking at on the internet, and surprisingly enough - had fun.

So in my case - there's no reason for him to pick porn over me. Except for maybe the fact that I'm not 25 anymore - but news flash - neither is he.

I'm attractive, not overweight, well endowed and open and adventurous - most husband's dream - but not mine and I don't even know why.

I suspect that ED and some medical issues from his TBI are at play here - but I don't really know because HE WON'T discuss it and let me help or us to work on it together. 

Instead he would drather look at porn each and every day and leave me wondering what happened, why I'm not good enough, etc., etc.

That's the ISSUE for me - not the porn itself.

How do you and others "know" if your porn usage is hurting your spouse? Have you asked? If you have and she has no problem, then no problem - but if she has indicated that it is an issue and it causes her pain - then why in the hell would you deliberately continue to do it? Does your spouse have a habit of continuing to deliberately flaunt things in your face that cause you pain?


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> I don't think you read my post about how porn is currently shaping the sex lives of many people. young people watch thousands of porn images before they even turn 18. this does effect them.


If they are affected (and yeah I believe they may be), then this hypothetical man for example is going to get a wake up call once he gets together with a hypothetical woman. This hypothetical man can't keep her, it's his loss and his responsibility to correct himself. Otherwise that hypothetical woman will be just hypothetical 



> watching porn does not enhance the ability of someone to be a good sex partner, many of the men in this thread alone have asked the question or implied that wanting women to do the things in porn is a good thing or some sort of sexual advancement (big fat lol). so even by their own admission that makes your point void, because it is obviously making them very selfish.


Of course it does not enhance the ability. It only enhances the quality of experience, for both parties. That's all. A man is not born with a manual for a female anatomy. He has to learn how to get her off. An unselfish man will try all kinds of things that will pop into his head to get his woman off.




> Wow, I happen to have more faith in men then that. Women also cheat, but neither have to do it, it's a choice. If I really believed men couldn't control themselves I'd never have another relationship, and I'd never leave the house.
> 
> Does every body really believe men are that weak? How sad! I happen to believe that men are strong and more capable then that.
> 
> Instead of excusing poor behavior from men (or women), why not hold them accountable for that they do and let them know we have faith in them?


*grin* Absolutely not. People are not weak. However they may have a weak moment from time to time. "Just in case" is all I am saying  

Some guy here wrote somewhere about how women should allow men to watch prior-to-agreed type of porn. A type of porn she is still comfortable with, but where he still gets his porn. It's all about a controlled environment kind of situation and that woman has control over it, not a man. I like it


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Let's face it, we are never going to agree on this. Men want porn, right? It doesn't matter if it hurts their spouse, to heck with them....it's all about me!
If you think that commercial porn makes you a better lover, then you are mistaken. Ian mentioned that porn has made our bedrooms better in that oral and anal are standard fare. Yes, it was porn who made men believe these two things are their God given right. What about the women who don't want a penis jammed in their mouth? What about the women who don't want to have a penis in their rear ends? It can be exceptionally painful and is isn't designed for that in the first place, but to hell with her concerns....I want what is mine. In porn the women never say no and will do whatever the man wants. Ever notice an oral sex scene in commercial porn? Woman gives a 20 minutes bj and the guy gives her head for a minute tops, or just spits on his hand and rubs her. Using these moves will naturally make you a better lover, right? You will learn nothing by following what is shown there except maybe to have little regard for a woman's feelings, body and needs. They manage to teach that in spades.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Let's face it, we are never going to agree on this. Men want porn, right? It doesn't matter if it hurts their spouse, to heck with them....it's all about me!
> If you think that commercial porn makes you a better lover, then you are mistaken. Ian mentioned that porn has made our bedrooms better in that oral and anal are standard fare. Yes, it was porn who made men believe these two things are their God given right. What about the women who don't want a penis jammed in their mouth? What about the women who don't want to have a penis in their rear ends? It can be exceptionally painful and is isn't designed for that in the first place, but to hell with her concerns....I want what is mine. In porn the women never say no and will do whatever the man wants. Ever notice an oral sex scene in commercial porn? Woman gives a 20 minutes bj and the guy gives her head for a minute tops, or just spits on his hand and rubs her. Using these moves will naturally make you a better lover, right? You will learn nothing by following what is shown there except maybe to have little regard for a woman's feelings, body and needs. They manage to teach that in spades.


*grin*

This is the thing. A Man will always want porn, even if everything in his relationship with a woman is great, including sexlife. Even if he is sexually sate, he will _still _want porn.

All the "better lover" or "men need variety" or whatever type of justification is just a _justification_. In order for women to understand that "men need porn" men come up with all kinds of biological and logical explanations, which as I said before come across to us women as ridiculous as this "I need it for my health, honey"  (picturing a raving lunatic )

If a man learns something from porn and properly applies it in his extracurricular activities with his woman, kudos for him and heaven for her. It all depends on a kind of a man he is, not on a kind of porn he watches.



> What about the women who don't want to have a penis in their rear ends? It can be exceptionally painful and is isn't designed for that in the first place


Hell yes! It's painful for me at least. If he wants anal experience, let him watch porn. I am NOT to be used for that.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> I have read numerous studies, written a paper for university purposes, done tons of research, and watched quite a few different mediums. But please do not kid your self about the most popular medium and most popular movies and what they are providing for the average porn consumer. It's not healthy, it's not reality and it's down right degrading to women. it's about doing things to women that women do not naturally want to partake in, and then leaving men with these unrealistic measures.


Again, looking for DATA. 

You are offering opinion. And the idea that none of these women do not naturally want to partake in these activities is 100% bunk. Not everyone gets off with roses and candy, y'know. Just how many of them would you have to meet before you became convinced that yes, some of these women love the sex that they're having on camera? 

And I'd like to see your rationalization that porn isn't healthy. Healthy for whom? For what?

And if by "unrealistic measures" you mean "an adventurous sexual spirit and ambitions to increase sexual pleasure", well, yes, that what porn shows to many men: sex doesn't have to be mediocre, boring, or monotonous. Would you rather have men completely ignorant of the variety of sexual experience? 



Syrum said:


> Well porn isn't just a fantasy, because the woman in porn is a real person. She was there and it did happen to her and IMO it doesn't help men have respect for women. to me it's like cheating, you are using the unfortunate situation of another (the porn actress) to have orgasm, when you should be focusing on how to have a real connection with your partner and a great sex life.


Actually, believe it or not, the MAN in the porn is a real person, too. Some people might forget about that. Whether or not it helps men have "respect" for women, both people (or all the people) in front of the camera are there of their own free will and the vast majority are enjoying their work. Are they both exploited? If anything, the man is the exploited party.

I'm curious how you think watching porn fosters disrespect towards women by men. I'm guessing you're imposing female sexual values on men? And upon what authority can you decisively dictate just what kind of sex other people should be having?



Syrum said:


> I read that overall the porn industry makes a lot of money. if it's not true why are doing it.


Of course the industry as a whole makes a lot of money. That doesn't mean that everyone in the industry makes a lot of money, or that everyone is particularly good at it. Porn companies go under every day. It's an industry, a business: making money is kind of the point. But the idea of the fabulously wealthy pornstar is a myth. The most successful ones I know only make about $250k a year, and the average is more like $120k, for a performer who does 25 or so movies a year. For men, of course, it's a lot, lot less. Women get paid about $1500k-$2000k per appearance, and the men usually get maybe $500. So the men have to work a lot harder. But even the producers aren't rolling in it -- even a cheapo porn movie costs at least $25k to produce and distribute, which means a lot of them don't even break even for a year or more.

.


Syrum said:


> Your post reads like someone who's heavily invested in the porn industry and thus can't see the issues clearly.


And yours reads like someone who's seen a few Hallmark specials on the evils of porn and hasn't done any real research into the real industry -- which means YOU can't see the issues clearly. I do work in the porn industry, and I'm very proud of that fact. What I do helps make people happy in a sex-positive way. I think that's a noble goal.



Syrum said:


> Firstly, it's widely known that women in the porn industry are treated poorly. Somewhere you say that after making 100's of films the women are more likely to comment positively on the industry. Well DUH:scratchhead:, they are heavily invested in it and profiting from it, they want more work, and they need to have the public buy the image they are projecting.


"Widely known" -- DATA! You've presented conjecture and rumor. How many pornstars have you met? Ever been on a set to see the conditions? Ever talked to one about the realities of being a single mom without a college education? Ever seen a woman burst into tears because she's doing what she loves but judgmental folks continually s1ut-shame her? What exactly _are_ "poor" working conditions on a set? 

And yes, the professionals in the industry, those who have a vocation and stuck with their job, ARE invested in the industry. Just like veteran teachers and lawyers are invested in theirs. Why? BECAUSE THEY LOVE WHAT THEY DO! They're in the entertainment industry, they love performing, and they want to continue to put out high quality products.



Syrum said:


> What valuable service does porn provide?


It makes millions of people happy every day by assisting them with fantasy masturbation material. Meeting a basic demand for over 100 million Americans every day seems like a pretty valuable service.



Syrum said:


> I think as a society we have been conditioned to see porn as the norm and are constantly bombarded with the pornification of women.


Then you haven't been looking hard enough. There's PLENTY of pornification of men, too. Have you seen Cosmo recently? Abs and butts as far as the eye can see (beyond the cosmetics ads).



Syrum said:


> Porn doesn't educate any one, porn is the junk food of sex, it may fill you up (fill a need) but it has no nutritional value. Any one watching porn who thinks it's good sex education is going to be bad in bed, full stop. Porn makes people into selfish bad lovers.


Again, your data for these bold statements?

That's going to come as a shock to Nina Hartley, porn star and professional sex educator, who has sold nearly a million instructional explicit videos to people over the years covering everything from light bondage to oral sex to sex during pregnancy. All those selfish lovers out there, selfishly learning new skills and techniques to selfishly please their lovers. 

You may consider porn the junk food of sex, but that just tells me you don't know an awful lot about porn.

And porn doesn't make people bad lovers. Porn makes people realize that they are bad lovers, and that they are sleeping with a bad lover. I mean, if you have no basis for comparison, then lousy sex seems pretty swell compared to no sex at all.



Syrum said:


> Everyone is influenced and shaped by society and media, if young people are watching porn it is shaping how they view sex and sexual relationships, that is not freedom, quite the opposite.
> 
> You can be open about sex and love sex, embrace the sexual side of things, discuss sex and have healthy sex education with out porn. in fact porn and healthy is an oxy moron.


Again, DATA!!! Porn has existed in every human culture since the paleolithic, and there are no "sexually open" cultures where it is not a major factor in the culture. If you can find a sexually open culture where porn is not a factor, I'd love to see it. I've been studying the matter over 20 years and haven't found one yet.

Your perspective seems awfully colored by the Comstock Act and the 1950s-era idea of what sex "should be". More, it seems completely predicated on female sexual values, not male sexual values. Do you really think that's fair?



Syrum said:


> As for people suggesting that only insecure people have a problem with porn. Untrue. I find many women who are unsure and insecure go along with watching porn, even though they don't like it and it makes them feel inadequate, simply because they are not secure enough in themselves or their relationship to say it isn't OK. I am secure enough about myself to know that I am worth it, to know that if something hurts me or disturbs me, my partner should care about it and me more than getting off to porn. If not and hes more interested in ensuring he can masturbate to images of women on screen, well he can do that by himself.


I'm starting to see where your resentment of porn comes from -- not, apparently, a serious study of the issue, but colored by personal experience alone.



Syrum said:


> Many women post about this issue, it's obviously a huge problem. porn is not helping couples connect and have good sex with each other. How can introducing a third party in the bedroom enhance the closeness between to people?


It's a problem for THEM, not their husbands. Their husbands have found something alluring and exciting. If porn becomes a problem in a relationship, it's clearly not the ONLY problem in the relationship.

And I think that Adam & Eve (celebrating 40 years in business this year) would strongly disagree that porn doesn't help couples connect, based on customer data and testimonials going back 4 DECADES. Your entire opinion seems based on your personal experience, and you seem closed-minded that other people may have a sexuality differing from yours. 



Syrum said:


> It would be like me saying to my SO, I really enjoy having sex but i need variety and the only way i can now get off is if I have a giant cardboard cut out of a different ridiculously young muscly big di(ked man at the foot of the bed and i have to imagine him plowing his giant penis into me, and i have to imagine him doing things you aren't comfortable with or that don't turn you on. Ok honey?
> 
> Most men would be very uncomfortable with this image hanging over their heads and yet men expect women to be comfortable with porn.


Are you so sure? You're _completely certain? _ Because in my experience, men (especially after being exposed to porn enough to give them an idea about the wide variety of sexual experience available) are far, far more likely to be open to more adventurous sex play than not. And you never know what might secretly turn your husband on. Do you think he's going to be honest with you about that sort of sensitive information when you've already proven judgmental about mere porn? 

One seriously has to question how much of this anti-porn hysteria is related to the idea that maybe hubby isn't just perfectly happy with lights-out-missionary-once-a-month like he says he is, but he's too fearful of your judgement and disapproval to be open and honest with you about how his sexuality really works. 



Syrum said:


> Oh and it's typical response to call someone who objects to porn prudish, it's a great way to silence people. However I am anything but prudish, I know I'm actually sexually adventurous, love to please my partner, have a very high sex drive, like variety, will try almost anything. I just take acception to an industry that exploits women, and teaches men how to be bad in bed.


And I take exception to an industry that exploits women and children in horrible working conditions for pennies, often subjected to extreme physical or sexual abuse, just so that Americans can get the cheapest clothes and shoes possible, not to mention an industry that teaches women to be fickle about fashions enough to require a new wardrobe every season -- but that's the modern fashion/textile industry. 

As far as whether or not you're a prude, I think that's a relative assessment. A far more telling question is whether your _husband_ really thinks you're a prude. It's none of my business -- I'm just defending my industry from someone who thinks they know it, but obviously doesn't.



Syrum said:


> I want to have sex with someone who values me and values women in general, I want to feel safe with them, so we can explore our sex life in a healthy way. I have my own unconventional kinks and so does he, we work on our fantasies together.


Great. A lot of people work porn into that equation. And that's a problem for you. 

Nor is your perspective shared by everyone -- in fact, in practice it is shared by a healthy plurality at best. Different people feel different ways about sex, and what "should be" and what "shouldn't be" varies by region, culture, class, even race. If you're pining for the way sex used to be in the 1950s -- or heck, even the 1980s -- then recall that during those eras it was commonly accepted to condemn homosexuality and lesbianism as "sexual perversions" akin to child abuse. Women who dared to use birth control were automatically "s1uts". Masturbation was a sign of mental illness -- or at best, something a respectable person was deeply ashamed about. "Sex education"? Don't make me laugh.

The great thing about the sexual revolution is the progress it made in opening up the field of sexuality to everyone, and re-defining previously rigid standards of sex to be far more inclusive. Porn is a part of that equation. Through exploration of a wider field of sexual behavior in a judgement-free environment, people have been able to move beyond the "big-boobs-and-blonde" stereotype of beauty and discover the erotic elements that appeal most profoundly to them. And you can't do that without artwork and media designed to elicit an erotic response -- porn.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Draguna said:


> It might be just me but the big names like Stoya, Bobbi Starr and a few others don't seem exploited. Well, if you can show me anything that suggests they are, and I would seriously consider not watching them anymore. It might be just me, but they really seem to have a spark in their eyes that I only see in my girl when we have sex. Something like complete inhibition I guess.
> I'm not gonna say that I'm an amazing mind reader etc, but most of the time it seems clear who is getting exploited and who is not.
> 
> As for my girl being my sex toy, never thought of her that way. I highly respect women, yes, even prostitutes. Life choices wont make me think less of you. Would never do anything that would make my girl feel like an object.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While your references are dated, I just interviewed Alexis Texas, a rising pornstar and very intelligent young woman, and she told me point-blank that her sympathies lie with the men in porn. her husband is porn stud Mr. Pete, so she can see both sides. 

Oh, and she really, _really_ loves what she does. Women who don't, don't stay in the industry -- nor should they.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

"A Man will always want porn, even if everything in his relationship with a woman is great, including sexlife. Even if he is sexually sate, he will still want porn."

Not so, so I disagree. I have watched my share of porn in my time thats for sure. Have my wife and I ever watched it together? Sure, however thats few and far between. Why? Is it because she didn't like it or didn't want me to watch it without her? Nope, its because I feel I don't NEED it or WANT it. I have what I need and want at home. 

Does it mean I'm not a visual person? Nope not at all. Sure I notice a nice looking woman walking down the street, who doesn't? Water is a NEED in life, porn is a WANT its not a NEED although people will convince themselves everyday that it is. If they absolutely feel its a NEED, then they need to cut their spouse lose and go be with their computer alone for the rest of their life.

Was I happy when I looked at porn, sure. Was I happy when I viewed it with my wife? Sure. However since I have chosen to to not watch it, I can say I have been happier than ever. Maybe part of that comes from the fact that both my wife and I could take it or leave it anyway. Its not something that if I don't view on a regular basis I'll just shrivel up and die from. 

I guess I was blessed with being happy within myself and what I already have at home, and it reflects in how I treat my wife and my respect for her. Nothing on a computer screen or in a magazine can ever compare to that. 

Also, after viewing ALL types of porn in my life, I can say, it got quite boring. It was kind of like once you have seen one p*ss you have seen them all.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Oh, and she really, really loves what she does. Women who don't, don't stay in the industry -- nor should they". 

I bet she does, she has to get her self esteem some way. 

I would think too, many people get out of the porn industry for many different reasons. Sure, one might be they no longer love it. Maybe they finally got tired of the BS and decided to love themselves and didn't need a trillion people drooling over them to make themselves feel good.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Drayvius said:
> 
> 
> > What if I watched some sort of weird testical torture porn that made him highly uncomfortable, started pressuring him to try it, and when he refused and said it made him feel awful to know I was watching that and wanting it from him, if I kept on watching it?
> ...


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Oh, and she really, really loves what she does. Women who don't, don't stay in the industry -- nor should they".
> 
> I bet she does, she has to get her self esteem some way.
> 
> I would think too, many people get out of the porn industry for many different reasons. Sure, one might be they no longer love it. Maybe they finally got tired of the BS and decided to love themselves and didn't need a trillion people drooling over them to make themselves feel good.


HA! Believe me, Alexis has no need to get her self-esteem from anywhere else. One of the most self-assured pornstars I've ever met. She knows she has a smokin' body, her husband loves her dearly, and she's doing what she loves -- she's actually pretty damn ****y.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

trey69 said:


> "A Man will always want porn, even if everything in his relationship with a woman is great, including sexlife. Even if he is sexually sate, he will still want porn."
> 
> Not so, so I disagree. I have watched my share of porn in my time thats for sure. Have my wife and I ever watched it together? Sure, however thats few and far between. Why? Is it because she didn't like it or didn't want me to watch it without her? Nope, its because I feel I don't NEED it or WANT it. I have what I need and want at home.
> 
> ...


Good for you. But I doubt you viewed ALL types of porn. There's a whole lot of types of porn. I'm betting you just scratched the surface.

In any case, I'm not advocating for porn to replace relationships, merely augment them. If porn is the reason your relationship comes crashing down, then you had a lot more problems there than porn brought into the equation.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> HA! Believe me, Alexis has no need to get her self-esteem from anywhere else. One of the most self-assured pornstars I've ever met. She knows she has a smokin' body, her husband loves her dearly, and she's doing what she loves -- she's actually pretty damn ****y.


So did she buy her body? Was she born with it, no enhancements? I mean yeah having tons of plastic surgeries is usually an indication they don't feel great about themselves.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> "it's NOT a shot at all the people who enjoy watching porn".
> 
> Its not about watching the occasional porn. Its more about when a person prefers it over their spouse. Thats when its becomes a real issue. It has been stated many times before on here that its more about when someone would rather use it than to be connected with their spouse. For whatever reason some people just don't get that part of it.


Oh, I get it, I just don't think it's _porn's_ fault. There were already issues there if that situation occurs. You might have hidden them, denied them, ignored them, or pretended they didn't exist, but a dude who prefers porn to his woman on a _regular basis _is either 

a) too lazy about sex to begin with
b) seriously searching for part of his sexuality that he has yet to define
c) really, really upset with his wife about something he'd rather not get into 
d) looking for escape from a miserably mediocre sex life
e) is suffering from a clinically diagnosable Sexual Compulsion Disorder. That's a whole lot more rare than you think.

In each case, it's not the fault of porn. Porn is just the method by which the guy is expressing his emotions -- likely because he doesn't feel comfortable enough with his wife to express them directly to her.

And that IS a problem.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> So did she buy her body? Was she born with it, no enhancements? I mean yeah having tons of plastic surgeries is usually an indication they don't feel great about themselves.


100% all-natural. Tall, too, for a performer (about 5'6" -- most stars are under 5'4" for technical reasons). Volleyball player in high school and college. PERFECT glutes. And you can't buy eyes like that.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

trey69 said:


> "A Man will always want porn, even if everything in his relationship with a woman is great, including sexlife. Even if he is sexually sate, he will still want porn."
> 
> Not so, so I disagree. I have watched my share of porn in my time thats for sure. Have my wife and I ever watched it together? Sure, however thats few and far between. Why? Is it because she didn't like it or didn't want me to watch it without her? Nope, its because I feel I don't NEED it or WANT it. I have what I need and want at home.
> 
> ...


Amen - Trey - you are my new hero!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Oh, I get it, I just don't think it's _porn's_ fault. There were already issues there if that situation occurs. You might have hidden them, denied them, ignored them, or pretended they didn't exist, but a dude who prefers porn to his woman on a _regular basis _is either
> 
> a) too lazy about sex to begin with
> b) seriously searching for part of his sexuality that he has yet to define
> ...


I actually can't disagree with most of what you've posted here.

But again - this point's to a man's inability to express himself with his wife and get it "all out in the open."

I would absolutely LOVE IT if my husband would open up to me and tell me what the real problem is - even if I didn't like it or it hurt my feelings - I WANT TO KNOW.

Based on your list above, this is my input (as his wife and what I DO KNOW):

a. Too lazy - naw, I don't think so - but maybe.
b. This could definitely be part of why things changed. Discovered he was bi-sexual last year - but I've supported this and am 100% behind him, so it should no longer be an issue.
c. Could be - but if he won't talk, then I'm SOL
d. Absolutely NOT - if it's mediocre, then I don't know what great is - threesomes, toys, movies, role play, etc., anything and everything he has asked for or indicated he liked.
e. I know this is rare, but could be part of his problem.

Also - medical issues, meds and ED from his TBI/age probably have a LOT to do with it, but he keeps pushing me away from helping him, instead of embracing the fact that I do want to help. But I can't help those that don't help themselves.

Our next MC session is Tuesday - I go to my IC counseling Monday - we have the same counselor for our IC and MC - I will definitely be addressing this issue in my IC and ask the counselor to bring it up during our MC.

This is the biggest issue that we are dealing with in our marriage. If he can't or won't talk about it, then he might find himself single sooner than later. I've been working on this for almost 2 years and I'm running out of patience (and I've told him this, unlike him - I am able to express myself).


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

And one more thing.

The statement that "men provide the majority of security" might have been true in the 50's, 60's and 70's, but not anymore.

I am the major breadwinner in my family, I run errands, clean the house, pay bills, wash clothes, etc.

So "I" provide the majority of the security, as it's defined, in my household.

All I ask in return is affection and intimacy.

If I can't get my simple needs met, then why the hell should I care about his?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I actually can't disagree with most of what you've posted here.
> 
> But again - this point's to a man's inability to express himself with his wife and get it "all out in the open."
> 
> ...


Your husband's new-found sexual orientation might be playing a much larger role in his issues than you suspect. A lot of bisexual men have a hard time rectifying their attraction to men and women with their sexuality. Your case is particularly harsh, of course, thanks to the ED and other issues. Strokes often damage or change emotional responses, which makes it that much more difficult.

I feel for you. I'd suggest you ask him to start writing you, either in a journal or by email, as if you were a friend of his and not his wife. It would be important not to be overly defensive about what he writes (even if its critical of you) but many men find it easier to express themselves when they don't have to talk face-to-face. Heck, he could communicate by mime, he just needs to get it out.

Unless he's still figuring it out. Some men don't want to talk about it until they've figured it out on their own.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Good for you. But I doubt you viewed ALL types of porn. There's a whole lot of types of porn. I'm betting you just scratched the surface.
> 
> In any case, I'm not advocating for porn to replace relationships, merely augment them. If porn is the reason your relationship comes crashing down, then you had a lot more problems there than porn brought into the equation.


Not necessarily.

A porn addiction is like any other addiction - people are seduced for various reasons, then it becomes out of control.

It could be for OTHER reasons other than any issues in their relationship. 

It could be issues that happened in their childhood, previous relationships, confusion about sexuality, etc.

I believe, at this point that my husband has a PORN ADDICTION. Has to - he is on it too much to be the casual viewer. When you're on it everyday, sometimes for several hours, 7-days a week and everywhere, then it's not normal. But try getting ANY MAN to admit they have an addiction, let alone a porn addiction.

Try it - I did - got NOWHERE!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> And one more thing.
> 
> The statement that "men provide the majority of security" might have been true in the 50's, 60's and 70's, but not anymore.
> 
> ...


Oh, I understand implicitly. That's why it's a problem.

My wife makes far more than I do, and even as a fairly enlightened male it took a toll on our relationship. It might be taking a toll on yours, too. Men who feel that they are not contributing actively to their household feel unmanly, because despite the fact that women are perfectly capable of supporting themselves without our help, males are still raised with the expectation that the ability to provide security -- money, home, etc. -- is their primary attractiveness characteristic. Our culture still hasn't caught up with this fact (it's only been the last 40 years or so) but I doubt it ever will, completely.

You say "all I ask" -- maybe you should ask for more? Not personally, but is it possible that your hubby is receding into porn because he feels useless? Just curious.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Good for you. But I doubt you viewed ALL types of porn. There's a whole lot of types of porn. I'm betting you just scratched the surface.
> 
> In any case, I'm not advocating for porn to replace relationships, merely augment them. If porn is the reason your relationship comes crashing down, then you had a lot more problems there than porn brought into the equation.


You have lived my life haven't you. I love your statement, "But I doubt you have viewed ALL types of porn." You know me so well and are in my brain. I love it when you seem to just know it all about another person and what they have and haven't done or what they know or don't know. :smthumbup:


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Oh, I understand implicitly. That's why it's a problem.
> 
> My wife makes far more than I do, and even as a fairly enlightened male it took a toll on our relationship. It might be taking a toll on yours, too. Men who feel that they are not contributing actively to their household feel unmanly, because despite the fact that women are perfectly capable of supporting themselves without our help, males are still raised with the expectation that the ability to provide security -- money, home, etc. -- is their primary attractiveness characteristic. Our culture still hasn't caught up with this fact (it's only been the last 40 years or so) but I doubt it ever will, completely.
> 
> You say "all I ask" -- maybe you should ask for more? Not personally, but is it possible that your hubby is receding into porn because he feels useless? Just curious.


Possibly - can't work, just goes to doctor appt's four days and week and sits in front of the TV or computer.

Does the same when I get home...

He needs to snap out of it is all I have to say.

Life is hard for everyone, not just him. Stop the pity party and man-up, I've been patient, but it's now running thin.

Just imagining the rest of my life like this makes me sick to my stomach. Can't and won't do it.

So either his IC will get through to him, or...haven't decided yet what I'm prepared to do if things don't change.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> 100% all-natural. Tall, too, for a performer (about 5'6" -- most stars are under 5'4" for technical reasons). Volleyball player in high school and college. PERFECT glutes. And you can't buy eyes like that.


Oh ok, so exactly what do you do? Since you seem to be knowledgeable of this industry? Do you do interviews? If so, only of porn stars?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Oh ok, so exactly what do you do? Since you seem to be knowledgeable of this industry? Do you do interviews? If so, only of porn stars?


I'm a Sex Nerd. I write stuff for Big Porn. I blog about sex. I do sex research. I market new sex products. I write reviews. I watch about 500 porn movies a year, not counting my personal time. And I interview porn stars.

Life is good!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I'm a Sex Nerd. I write stuff for Big Porn. I blog about sex. I do sex research. I market new sex products. I write reviews. I watch about 500 porn movies a year, not counting my personal time. And I interview porn stars.
> 
> Life is good!


Don't let my husband hang around you - then I will have problems!

You're wife has to be veryyyy secure.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> I'm a Sex Nerd. I write stuff for Big Porn. I blog about sex. I do sex research. I market new sex products. I write reviews. I watch about 500 porn movies a year, not counting my personal time. And I interview porn stars.
> 
> Life is good!


Good grief! 

Have you ever interviewed any EX porn stars? Or gone to their blogs/websites that tells the other side of things? 

If so, have you ever felt anything ring true for what they have said about the flip side of things in that industry?


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Don't let my husband hang around you - then I will have problems!
> 
> You're wife has to be veryyyy secure.


Of course she is secure, she is probably "in the industry" too!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

trey69 said:


> You have lived my life haven't you. I love your statement, "But I doubt you have viewed ALL types of porn." You know me so well and are in my brain. I love it when you seem to just know it all about another person and what they have and haven't done or what they know or don't know. :smthumbup:


Dude, there were _19,000 _porn DVDs released last year alone. That's a rate of 50 a day, some in niches you've never even _heard of_. CBT. CFNM. Clown sex. Pirate sex. Cosplay. Foodsex. Brazilian fart porn. Argentinian bug-crushing porn. Hentai. Pegging. "Two Girls And A Cup". Bear-on-bear, bear-on-twink, kitten-on-cougar, W2W, gonzo, parodies, premiums, comps, Asian, Latin, Black, Jewish, Arab, Indian, African, Euro, Aboriginal, midgets, amputees, BDSM, T&S, petite, interracial, Furry, ****, Grinder, SanFran, Swinger, UW, Caving, HSP, WS, Trannies -- the list goes on and on.

And that doesn't even _count_ the strange stuff they do in Japan. 

I watch at least 500 movies a year, and I haven't seen ALL the porn. Not even all the types. So unless you've been an industry veteran longer than I have, and devote more time than I do (and have better access than I do), yeah, I feel pretty comfortable with doubting that you've seen ALL the porn.

But I'm happy to hear your credentials.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Of course she is secure, she is probably "in the industry" too!


She is, indeed, very secure. We've been together faithfully over 20 years. 

And she doesn't work in my industry. She works for one far more corrupt and exploitive than porn: the pharmaceutical industry. But after getting hit with the full brunt of my industry, and actually learning about it, she shrugs it off pretty easily. Why wouldn't she? She's that secure. Any of you who might doubt that the only kind of woman I'd attract and keep is a vapid pornstar will be shocked to learn my mate is brilliant, at the top of her field, and not at all threatened by the fact that I objectify people for a living. She's a very personally powerful woman, and respects a passionate man.

Plus, she gets it pretty regular, too. And just imagine all the stuff I've learned over the years . . .


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Good grief!
> 
> Have you ever interviewed any EX porn stars? Or gone to their blogs/websites that tells the other side of things?
> 
> If so, have you ever felt anything ring true for what they have said about the flip side of things in that industry?


Sure, all the time. It's one of my favorite things to do. 

I'd say about 15% of female industry veterans (that is, anyone who's worked in industry more than 2 years, not the weekend-wonder, ohmygodthecheckactuallycashed getmethehellouttahere poseurs) have a very negative view, often backed by religious conviction. Some of them make quite a lot of money in the anti-porn industry, too. 

The others range from "it's a living" to "ohmygodIlovedit!". 

My favorite is Asia Carrera, the 80s Asian star who has 160 IQ and is a MENSA member. She got out of the industry at the top of her game, got married, had two kids, and continues to run a mutual fund company that caters to the retirement needs of pornstars. Tragically, her husband and father of her kids was killed a few years ago in a bike accident, but the entire porn community rallied behind her. 

Then there are those who were in porn, got out for whatever reason, and are now coming back: women like Teri Weigel and Amber Lynn, who are now reinventing themselves as MILFs for that very-popular market. They don't seem so distraught over their early years in the industry that they didn't want to come back.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> She is, indeed, very secure. We've been together faithfully over 20 years.
> 
> And she doesn't work in my industry. She works for one far more corrupt and exploitive than porn: the pharmaceutical industry. But after getting hit with the full brunt of my industry, and actually learning about it, she shrugs it off pretty easily. Why wouldn't she? She's that secure. Any of you who might doubt that the only kind of woman I'd attract and keep is a vapid pornstar will be shocked to learn my mate is brilliant, at the top of her field, and not at all threatened by the fact that I objectify people for a living. She's a very personally powerful woman, and respects a passionate man.
> 
> Plus, she gets it pretty regular, too. And just imagine all the stuff I've learned over the years . . .


So why are you so angry then? It makes no sense! :scratchhead:


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> So why are you so angry then? It makes no sense! :scratchhead:


So if a committed feminist was in a happy marriage, she shouldn't be upset and angry about the plight of other women?

I'm not angry because I'm personally disgruntled. I've got a great sex life, once my wife realized that sex was a necessity for me. And she's got an incredible, devoted husband in return. But when I read these accounts, hear the crap about "porn addiction" and realize that it's basically how women are using men's own sexuality against them because they're losing control of the sexual power in their relationships, and yeah, I can get angry about that. Just because I've discovered how to balance sex and power in my relationship doesn't mean the other men in America are going to clue in. And when I read some of the things (or hear them from their own lips) these women are saying about their husbands and men in general, it makes me as angry as any feminist angry over unequal pay.

Make sense now?


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Dude, there were _19,000 _porn DVDs released last year alone. That's a rate of 50 a day, some in niches you've never even _heard of_. CBT. CFNM. Clown sex. Pirate sex. Cosplay. Foodsex. Brazilian fart porn. Argentinian bug-crushing porn. Hentai. Pegging. "Two Girls And A Cup". Bear-on-bear, bear-on-twink, kitten-on-cougar, W2W, gonzo, parodies, premiums, comps, Asian, Latin, Black, Jewish, Arab, Indian, African, Euro, Aboriginal, midgets, amputees, BDSM, T&S, petite, interracial, Furry, ****, Grinder, SanFran, Swinger, UW, Caving, HSP, WS, Trannies -- the list goes on and on.
> 
> And that doesn't even _count_ the strange stuff they do in Japan.
> 
> ...


:rofl::rofl: :smthumbup:


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> So why are you so angry then? It makes no sense! :scratchhead:


He doesn't come across as angry to me really, but more arrogant, and like a holier than thou type. I have found most people who are secure, do not come across like that. Its not so much what he says and what he knows, as it is how he says it.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> He doesn't come across as angry to me really, but more arrogant, and like a holier than thou type. I have found most people who are secure, do not come across like that. Its not so much what he says and what he knows, as it is how he says it.


"Holier-than-thou"? That's rich! Pornier-than-thou, perhaps. I'm just trying to get men to realize how they're getting screwed the way things are (or NOT getting screwed, as the case may be) and trying to teach them a way out. And yes, porn plays a role in that.

Arrogant . . . I'll cop to that. Folks who are very, _very_ secure in their position often are accused of arrogance. And every word is carefully chosen for an intended effect. It's kind of what I do.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> "Holier-than-thou"? That's rich! Pornier-than-thou, perhaps. I'm just trying to get men to realize how they're getting screwed the way things are (or NOT getting screwed, as the case may be) and trying to teach them a way out. And yes, porn plays a role in that.
> 
> Arrogant . . . I'll cop to that. Folks who are very, _very_ secure in their position often are accused of arrogance. And every word is carefully chosen for an intended effect. It's kind of what I do.


I didn't mean that in a ugly way Ian, really I didn't. I'm just saying you come across that way. You just did it again when you said "folks who are very very secure" If folks are very very secure they wouldn't feel the need to say things in a way that makes themselves looks like they know it all and that their sh*t don't stink. Insecure people do that when they want to make themselves appear secure to others.

BTW I looked up the Big Porn you said you wrote for, or whatever..it brought me to something called, pizza and sausage with amatuer d*ck porn! WTH? lmao


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Pharmaceuticals & Porn. F'ing Brilliant.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Pharmaceuticals & Porn. F'ing Brilliant.


I would think they kind of go hand in hand.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

CallaLily said:


> He doesn't come across as angry to me really, but more arrogant, and like a holier than thou type. I have found most people who are secure, do not come across like that. Its not so much what he says and what he knows, as it is how he says it.


A few posts ago, he said he was angry. I am curious why? He also tends to paint with a broad brush in essence by saying men are sex starved and women are causing that. Ahem, I in no way reflect that.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Jamison said:


> I would think they kind of go hand in hand.


Two industries wrought with disparity, greed and the advertisement that they're providing life sustaining tools.

My husband works for an advertising agency that only works with pharmaceuticals. I can't stand it. It is unbelievable.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Jamison said:


> I would think they kind of go hand in hand.


That and a bathtub mysteriously propped by a lake.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> A few posts ago, he said he was angry. I am curious why? He also tends to paint with a broad brush in essence by saying men are sex starved and women are causing that. Ahem, I in no way reflect that.


He's angry in a general way on behalf of all men because they have had to hold back their...can't remember what he called it...Beast? Buzz? for too long and need to take back what is theirs!!!


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

The first thing that came to mind was misogynist. However, because he clearly gets lots of sex from his wife who is apparently awesome and because he works in the porn industry and loves porn stars, then I guess he isn't.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> He's angry in a general way on behalf of all men because they have had to hold back their...can't remember what he called it...Beast? Buzz? for too long and need to take back what is theirs!!!


If the "buzz" is so important, then why get married in the first place? I am asking sincerely. You can have children outside of wedlock. That way you procreate and can nail anything that moves. It's almost like men marry and then moan that they gave up a part of themselves and blame women for it. So don't do it! Simple.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Jamison said:


> The first thing that came to mind was misogynist. However, because he clearly gets lots of sex from his wife who is apparently awesome and because he works in the porn industry and loves porn stars, then I guess he isn't.


There are alot of misogynist men in the porn industry. Their hatred of women and their views on sex, reflect in the way they treat women on and off camera.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> If the "buzz" is so important, then why get married in the first place? I am asking sincerely. You can have children outside of wedlock. That way you procreate and can nail anything that moves. It's almost like men marry and then moan that they gave up a part of themselves and blame women for it. So don't do it! Simple.


They want their cake and want to eat it too (who doesn't really). Then when the cake turns stale they question why they liked the cake so much...then they complain about how things are so vanilla.

Blah. Blah. Blah.

The more I read from men, when they are being honest, the less I like them. Maybe that's why men are dishonest? :rofl:


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Two industries wrought with disparity, greed and the advertisement that they're providing life sustaining tools.
> 
> My husband works for an advertising agency that only works with pharmaceuticals. I can't stand it. It is unbelievable.


Worst part of it? The advertising end is the CLEANER part of the business. Be glad he isn't in Regulatory. That's where the dirt is.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Jamison said:


> The first thing that came to mind was misogynist. However, because he clearly gets lots of sex from his wife who is apparently awesome and because he works in the porn industry and loves porn stars, then I guess he isn't.


"Misogynist" implies I hate women. I don't. I LOVE women. I don't like the way the male-female dynamic has evolved, and I fault the culture for advancing female sexual values as the only legitimate ones, forcing male sexual values off the table. You wanna see me happy? Treat female and male sexual values as equals. 

So how do you get "misogynist" out of "I want equality!"?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Ceiling cat once again pokes his head in to see that everyone is playing nice.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> If the "buzz" is so important, then why get married in the first place? I am asking sincerely. You can have children outside of wedlock. That way you procreate and can nail anything that moves. It's almost like men marry and then moan that they gave up a part of themselves and blame women for it. So don't do it! Simple.


When we get married it is with the belief that our wives will happily help us handle our Buzz, because that's what we think they agreed to when they got married. We trade the possibility of sex with many mates for the security of sex with one mate, but with the understanding that our commitment will be honored with some kind of sex. 

Then, for many (if not most) men, after the wedding or a few years on, the rules change without them being notified. Suddenly the wife you love and who you depended upon to keep the Buzz quiet decides that there's no such thing as a Buzz in the first place, and you're just saying that . . . because you're a man (well, duh) and why should I, any way, because ________________?

At that point, men realize that what they thought they agreed to isn't what the agreement is about at all, but it's too late to try to renegotiate. They're bound. They still love their wives, but instead of sex being a liberating, sharing experience that makes them happy, it becomes an endless series of hoops to jump through with no hope of fulfillment. If they complain, they lose. If they try to do something about it, they lose. If they cheat, they lose. And if they try to be honest with their wives about their needs, well, usually they get brutally judged and then lose.

I never said men didn't have emotional needs to bond and love and feel loved. It's just that for us, sex is an integral part of that process, while for many women it seems optional. Or worse. For men, sex is always part of the equation. You can't take it off the table. The buzz never stops. And while you'd really, really prefer that your wife understood you well enough to handle it maturely, instead she gets judgmental and calls your mental health, your morals, and your entire character into question.

After that, nothing left to do but shut up, watch porn, and dream about cheating. As a man, your needs are secondary to hers in the relationship. And that's a cause for despair and pain.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

AgentD said:


> There are alot of misogynist men in the porn industry. Their hatred of women and their views on sex, reflect in the way they treat women on and off camera.


And there are a lot of misandronists . . . EVERYWHERE. It's okay to bash guys all day long, and nobody can complain, right?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> They want their cake and want to eat it too (who doesn't really). Then when the cake turns stale they question why they liked the cake so much...then they complain about how things are so vanilla.
> 
> Blah. Blah. Blah.
> 
> The more I read from men, when they are being honest, the less I like them. Maybe that's why men are dishonest? :rofl:


You may have hit on something there. If we were honest, you wouldn't like us because we're not girls. So why be honest? 

Y'all are the ones who wanted all this communication and stuff. If you didn't really want to hear what we had to say, why ask for communication?


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> Y'all are the ones who wanted all this communication and stuff. If you didn't really want to hear what we had to say, why ask for communication?


ah well you misunderstand about what a women means by communication....

its not that we want to hear what you have to say, we want to hear if what you think agrees with what we think you should think. that's all. If you dont agree with us then obviously you werent listening and therefore you have bad communication skills.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> You may have hit on something there. If we were honest, you wouldn't like us because we're not girls. So why be honest?
> 
> Y'all are the ones who wanted all this communication and stuff. If you didn't really want to hear what we had to say, why ask for communication?


I am just hoping that all men are not like you. I'm hoping it's an individual flaw or representative of the minority rather than a true representation of all men and for all our sakes, I hope I'm right.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian,
You said that men withdraw emotionally after marriage and women withdraw sexually. So how is this womens fault then? It sounds to me like it is a universal non-compatability thing so I go back to, why do we marry? If a man is biologically programmed to retreat after marriage and a woman biologically programmed to not want sex, why are we foolish enough to get married. 

Amp, how was this thread getting bad?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Blanca said:


> If you dont agree with us then obviously you werent listening and therefore you have bad communication skills.


:rofl::rofl::rofl: Love it Blanca!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> When we get married it is with the belief that our wives will happily help us handle our Buzz, because that's what we think they agreed to when they got married. We trade the possibility of sex with many mates for the security of sex with one mate, but with the understanding that our commitment will be honored with some kind of sex.
> 
> Then, for many (if not most) men, after the wedding or a few years on, the rules change without them being notified. Suddenly the wife you love and who you depended upon to keep the Buzz quiet decides that there's no such thing as a Buzz in the first place, and you're just saying that . . . because you're a man (well, duh) and why should I, any way, because ________________?
> 
> ...


It's what you think women agree to? I don't remember that in my vows...

I'm wondering where some expectation of self control is here. Men are capable of great things. I think you underestimate them. You make them seem like a simple honey bee constantly circling the vagina hole.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Amp, how was this thread getting bad?


Its not yet. Just a topic that tends to get emotional and degrade from there. We are watching, we are always watching. 

Keep up the spirited debate. Very interesting.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> Its not yet. Just a topic that tends to get emotional and degrade from there. We are watching, we are always watching.
> 
> Keep up the spirited debate. Very interesting.


Yeah, I lost it with the last porn thread but he has gotten infinately more facinating and I enjoy reading what he writes. Plus I like asking questions and getting a thesis statement in return. No Conrad answers for him!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> When we get married it is with the belief that our wives will happily help us handle our Buzz, because that's what we think they agreed to when they got married. We trade the possibility of sex with many mates for the security of sex with one mate, but with the understanding that our commitment will be honored with some kind of sex.
> 
> Then, for many (if not most) men, after the wedding or a few years on, the rules change without them being notified. Suddenly the wife you love and who you depended upon to keep the Buzz quiet decides that there's no such thing as a Buzz in the first place, and you're just saying that . . . because you're a man (well, duh) and why should I, any way, because ________________?
> 
> ...


Okay, well then let me ask you....what about a wife who thought that her husband would only turn to her as stated in the vows and now he views porn nightly? Wouldn't that be a bait and switch as well? Wouldn't that be breaking the agreement they had and the rules changed without the wife being notified? 
I think it goes both ways but you imply women have this thing cornered which is completely false. You said yourself that men change by retreating and distancing themselves emotionally after marriage. That's a TOTAL bait and switch. It isn't just women!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Blanca said:


> ah well you misunderstand about what a women means by communication....
> 
> its not that we want to hear what you have to say, we want to hear if what you think agrees with what we think you should think. that's all. If you dont agree with us then obviously you werent listening and therefore you have bad communication skills.


You say it in jest, but there's more truth to that statement than most folks would like to admit.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Ian,
> You said that men withdraw emotionally after marriage and women withdraw sexually. So how is this womens fault then? It sounds to me like it is a universal non-compatability thing so I go back to, why do we marry? If a man is biologically programmed to retreat after marriage and a woman biologically programmed to not want sex, why are we foolish enough to get married.
> 
> Amp, how was this thread getting bad?


Because sexuality is far more complicated than simple "whose fault is it?". 

You have the biology. The sociology. The anthropology, the economics, and, of course, the personal psychology of the people involved. Both males and females as individuals have amazingly sophisticated sexual psychologies that build on the biological and anthropological basis of sexuality. Those individuals exist and mate within a complex social environment, and then age through several biological stages, if the couple stays together. At various points due to psychology or biology or the social interaction of the primaries, sexuality shifts and changes in reaction, and these shifts and changes are rarely parallel between men and women.

It's not "women's faul" -- it's how things have evolved, due to changes in technology and society over the years. The sexual equation fundamentally changed between 1940 and 1965, and Western culture was just starting to come to terms with it when it changed again in the 1990s-2000s. There was a strong concerted movement among women towards equal rights and intellectual, legal, and social equality with men . . . but the sexual rules we inherited from our agriculturally-based forebears, then filtered through American advertising and popular culture, produced a seemingly-destined-to-fail scenario that saw the balance of power in relationships shift dramatically towards women. And along the way, women were so intent on establishing themselves as equals to men that they didn't seem to focus (and why would they) on addressing the issues of sexual equality. Oh, the push towards orgasms and reproductive rights was there, clearly, but the over-all paradigm under which modern marriage operates, it wasn't up for renegotiation.

The result was a system that temporarily gave the advantage to women, and female sexual values. Divorce skyrocketd, marriage rates plummeted, and the term "serial monogamy" became popular. Male sexual values -- which were already in the toilet, thanks to the Feminist movement -- were marginalized, and men in society (as men) were ridiculed and demeaned. Any attempt to defend ourselves as a gender was met with cries of "misogyny!" and "Chauvenism", and in some cases it was. 

But the knee-jerk reaction to dismissing any issues of male sexuality were likewise swept away by a culture that had discovered female power in a big way, and was leary of any retrograde reaction.

But there was some, despite the movement, and the conservative backlash took hold in the 1980s, partially fueled by male resentment. 

So men and women naturally want to pair up -- I'm not denying the power of love, or the desire for love -- to love and be loved -- in the hearts of both men and women. I merely wish the two sexual values to be considered equally, equally respected and equally valued as part of a whole relationship. Individuals in our society have found ways to do this, but as a culture we have decidedly not -- and high divorce, internet porn, and all sorts of other issues have arisin as a result.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> It's what you think women agree to? I don't remember that in my vows...


Exactly. 

Until about 1965 or so, since about 1000 CE, marriage was a de facto business arrangement designed first and foremost to produce heirs and conserve agricultural property. Implicit (and in some places, explicit) to this agreement was the expectation that it is a woman's duty as a wife to submit to her husband's sexual desires, pretty much unquestionably. The church even found plenty of ways to enforce that through selective interpretations of scripture. Marriage treated wives like chattle, pretty much, but in return women got security and protection. 

As the economy became increasingly commercial and then industrial, the husband's ability to provide security in the form of wages became increasingly important. In the industrial age producing heirs to inherit real estate wasn't as important as producing descendents who could care for you in your old age. Family sizes went down, but the expectation in marriage remained: a husband and wife are faithful, he is expected to provide resources and security for the family, she is expected to provide housekeeping for the family and sex for the husband. In some places it was spelled out pretty clearly, and a wife's refusal to do her "wifely duty" could be grounds for divorce or abandonment. Since any dalliances outside of marriage could easily lead to pregnancy, women were pretty much at the mercy of the system -- it was heavily stacked against them. But they got security out of the deal, first in a marriage, and then with adult children. If she had to put up with a coarse and brutal sex life along the way, most women saw that as a small price to pay. Romance was a relatively late invention for the masses, and marrying for love, while fortuitous, was more fable than reality.

In the traditional wedding ceremony stuff like "love, honor, and obey", and "cleave to him" and "subserviant unto her husband" and such are all fairly thin innuendo meaning "You got to put out now, missy, no matter how bad he smells!". But in exchange, the wife gets an item of real value -- a golden ring -- in token of the husband's pledge to provide security, resources, and protection for her in exchange. It wasn't a great system -- it sucked, pretty much -- but it kept things moving. And if hubby got out of line, a wife could always poison him. 


That changed in the 1960s with birth control (which put reproductive freedom in women's hands for the first time) industrialization (which allowed women to enter the workforce and provide their own financial security) and technology (which reduced the number of hours necessary for housekeeping by 3/4). In 1940 wives spent most of their time keeping house, because there were a whole lot of chores to be done just to do the chores, and it required a lot of attention. By 1960, due to improvements in standards of living post WWII and the electrical revolution, a "modern woman" could have all the housework done before noon -- that's where the "bored housewife" sexual stereotype arose.

So in reaction to all of this, and a lot of Feminist empowerment, the traditional marriage ceremony was slightly altered ("obey" was replaced with "respect"), the divorce laws were liberalized, and suddenly the rules which had worked clumsily for a thousand years just didn't work any more. Women didn't need men for security, per se, or protection. They could be choosier about their husbands, and better yet -- for women -- *they could legally refuse sex to their husbands.* That was a pretty big deal. That shift pushed the marital dynamic heavily into the favor of women. 

In short, when the expectation of sex-on-demand was removed from marriage, and no re-negotiation about the role of sex in the union was forthcoming, the murkiness and new female empowerment slapped men across the face, hard, metaphorically speaking. Marriage could no longer be relied upon as a means of trading security and resources for sex and caretaking, like the old paradigm. If a man wanted sex, and a woman didn't feel like it, then too bad for him, right?

The ring in pledge of material security and protection was still there. All the archaic trappings of virginity and purity were there. And two incomes do make a much higher standard-of-lving than one. Folks still want to raise kids. But the implicit promise of sex in the arrangement was struck out, to be replaced by a "you'll just have to convince her or she'll leave your sorry ass and move to California" clause. 

Men couldn't impress women as much with material wealth because they were no longer dependent upon them for their upkeep. Women no longer needed the legal protections being a wife once afforded. And -- thanks to birth control -- women could have affairs just as easily as men, without the consequence of pregnancy. That gave women the majority of power in the relationship, with little or no leverage available for men. It allowed women to dictate the sexual equation from a place of power, and deny that power to their husbands without consequence. Suddenly men became dependent upon the grace of their wives for sex -- or avoided marriage altogether so that they could take advantage of the new crops of suddenly-sexually-adventurous younger women who weren't concerned one bit for security or stability -- they just wanted to have FUN!

So yeah, that's why you don't remember all that stuff in your vows. It went away, a while back, and culturally we really haven't recovered. The escape through porn and anonymous sex that men are turning to now is going to be untenable, long term, and I anticipate a further evolution in the marriage agreement. Just how that's going to work, though, is still unknown.



Trenton said:


> I'm wondering where some expectation of self control is here. Men are capable of great things. I think you underestimate them. You make them seem like a simple honey bee constantly circling the vagina hole.


Men are capable of extraordinary things -- see Camille Paglia's work on the subject. But in reading it, you'll also find that this creative impulse is directly tied to male sexuality (and in extreme cases, male homosexuality -- helluva read). 

As for self-control, of course there's a cultural and psychological expectation of that. Chivalry, for instance -- an institution derided by most feminists because it is poorly understood -- and often purposefully misunderstood to advance a political agenda. But Chivalry stressed self control, and was the go-to for masculine behavior for the last thousand years. 

But the misunderstood aspects of Chivalry include the issue of Grace -- that magnamous gesture on the part of the gentleman to not only exercise self-control in his behaior, but to extend his personal power for the protection of the weak and innocent in a gracious manner. The thing is, Chivalry doesn't work without Grace, and grace doesn't work unless a) it's voluntary, not compulsary and b) it comes from a position of strength. You cannot be weak and gracious, in the traditional sense, and likewise you cannot force behavior that is only meritorious when offered freely. 

But feminism trashed and dismissed Chivalry (the only real social control over male behavior outside of the military or the priesthood) as an oppressive system. By 1970, it just wasn't appreciated in popular culture, it was reviled. A chivalrous man was a throwback, and so chivalry, with all of its benefits, wasn't rewarded. Since men were losing power anyway, and women were using social pressure to compel their behavior, it was dying anyway. So largely men abandoned it . . . and in doing so, abandoned the only real guide they had for behavior and comportment. 

It isn't that men can't control themselves -- they can. But the question is, why should they? Under the current system, they get about the same results either way. Be a real alpha d!ck and you can still find some girl who's desperately looking for a relationship and trade on that for your sex life. Or be a decent guy, but lack social skills or ambition, and end up unable or unwilling to compete for a quality female. Or -- finally -- you could be GAY and not have to worry about women at all! If you aren't a d!ck, a "loser", or gay, and you were one of those rare dudes who could be nice and intelligent and respectful and well-educated and successful -- in other words, all the things being a gentleman was supposed to produce, but naturally occuring -- well, you had your pick of companions. But those guys are few and far between, as I'm sure your single girlfriends will tell you. 

We can control ourselves as men. But what's the incentive? Really? If women make the mating rituals such hard work, and relationships so complicated, and they'll probably just leave you anyway, then what's the incentive for a dude to control himself? When there's Girls Gone WIld and World of Warcraft? 

What have we left to offer? What have we left to gain?


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

dear Mr iron wood.

You are so heavily invested in the porn industry that you couldn't see it straight if you tried, and that's cool.

But where oh where is your data? Or have you not provided your opinion, the opinion of a man who makes his living off of the commodification of human beings? Sad stuff really. How dare I a mere woman give my opinion on the porn industry, and I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about.

I also never said that men were not commodified, however the consequences for the men in porn are not the same as the social consequences for women. Sex for women and men is framed very differently. For the most part porn is framed as something being done to women, not active healthy sex between two people, vintage porn used to at least have a story, and wasn't 10 men trying to cum in a woman's face at one etc. (but no that's not degrading, she loves it, mmmm yummy *insert vomit here*). From a societal standpoint in almost every country and this is certainly true in the US women are in a different position economically and certainly socially (**** shaming etc).

As for some more information about what porn does, here is some great info on what it does to a mans brain. scary stuff.



> 102 The current porn epidemic gives a graphic demonstration that sexual tastes can be acquired. Pornography, delivered by high-speed Internet connections, satisfies every one of the prerequisites for neuroplastic change [forming new neural circuitry- a key piece in addiction].
> 
> Pornography seems, at first glance, to be a purely instinctual matter: sexually explicit pictures trigger instinctual responses, which are the product of millions of years of evolution. But if that were true, pornography would be unchanging. The same triggers, bodily parts and their proportions, that appealed to our ancestors would excite us. This is what pornographers would have us believe, for they claim they are battling sexual repression, taboo, and fear and that their goal is to liberate the natural, pent-up sexual instincts.
> 
> ...



Porn is only one section in the book, it's really very interesting.

ABOUT THE BOOK

Porn changes your brain and not for the better. It's like a drug.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> So in reaction to all of this, and a lot of Feminist empowerment, the traditional marriage ceremony was slightly altered ("obey" was replaced with "respect"), the divorce laws were liberalized, and suddenly the rules which had worked clumsily for a thousand years just didn't work any more. Women didn't need men for security, per se, or protection. They could be choosier about their husbands, and better yet -- for women -- *they could legally refuse sex to their husbands*. That was a pretty big deal. That shift pushed the marital dynamic heavily into the favor of women.


Actually, in the last few decades women learned not only to enjoy sex, but also that they _are entitled to_ have _good _sex. Men don't have it easy anymore, they can't get away with being bad in bed.

It's said that a woman should work at keeping her man "interested", by continuous "dancing the dance", continuous enticing him.

If after sealing the deal a woman becomes less interested in sex, then maybe it's men that should start "dancing"?


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> "Misogynist" implies I hate women. I don't. I LOVE women. /
> 
> 
> > that is why I went back and said obviously you weren't.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> And there are a lot of misandronists . . . EVERYWHERE. It's okay to bash guys all day long, and nobody can complain, right?


Correct, and I thought about that after I posted but had to be somewhere. You are right there are lots of them everywhere. However I was using that as an example in this particular thread because it is about porn.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Okay, well then let me ask you....what about a wife who thought that her husband would only turn to her as stated in the vows and now he views porn nightly? Wouldn't that be a bait and switch as well? Wouldn't that be breaking the agreement they had and the rules changed without the wife being notified?
> I think it goes both ways but you imply women have this thing cornered which is completely false. You said yourself that men change by retreating and distancing themselves emotionally after marriage. That's a TOTAL bait and switch. It isn't just women!


Actually, women accidently screwed themselves over, at least in the short term. That's the point: women removed the automatic expectation of sex in a marital relationship . . . and now they're paying a price. Because the expectation of sex was always mutual -- a woman could divorce a man for impotance, in many places, if she wanted to go through with it, or take him to court for not fulfilling HIS part of the sexual contract. It was rare, but it happened.

But when women became socially equal in the 1960s and the sexual expectation was written out of common marriage vows, it worked both ways. That was to the female advantage, for a while. They were no longer obligated to provide sex for their husbands, legally and socially (although culturally it was still encouraged). What they didn't realize is that also meant that their husbands -- in addition to not being obligated to provide security and resources to his wife -- were no longer obligated to have sex with them, either. No big deal in 1965. 

But by 1975 women had discovered their clitorii in a big way and were defining a new female-based sexuality with female sexual values. The explosion of female sexuality led to frustration, because by that time the obligation for sex in a marriage was gone. Hubby didn't have to put out -- he could file seperation papers and shack up with a 24 year old aerobics instructor instead and start over. Easy divorce, free sexuality, lack of sexual obligation in a marriage -- all things feminism espoused, and all biting women in the @$$ today.

So the problem is that there is no real marriage contract that implicitly involves sex anymore. You can try to go the conservative route and add "obey" back into it, but the fact is our society has moved beyond where that is enforceable, so it's pretty much meaningless. At this point, we have the sexual contract being negotiated by each couple on an individual basis, whether they understand that or not, and absent that obligation for sex, there's no compulsion on either side of the table. Men still need sex. Women still need (emotional) security. Both want intimacy and respect and love and all sorts of other things, but the two big ones that made marriage as we knew it work just don't matter the same way they used to. 

So marriage is broken. The vow you thought you took is the same vow all those men thought they took when they thought their wives would be obligated to have sex with them -- and then didn't. It wasn't bait-and-switch for you (unless your vows explicitly dealt with the nature of your sexual relationship with your husband) because the rules for marriage were changed a while back, and they didn't include sexual obligation anymore. 

You can try to enforce the old broken rules, but the fact is that it's an evolving institution, and doing so is likely to lead to frustration. You can negotiate a new agreement, but it will have to include sex and security, and you might find the male position a lot more fickle than it used to be -- as your husband is demonstrating. Porn and anonymous sex make it easy for men to pursue their own sexual values, and that means that women no longer can compel their attention anymore. 

What's the answer? All you can do is try to appeal to him and try to find some accomodation. I mentioned all the reasons why a guy would do that -- the question remains, what can a woman provide that can entice a man away from such amusements? And that's the question our entire society has to answer before things really fall apart.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian,
Why do you think that the male sexual value was in the toilet due to the feminist movement? I disagree. I think the feminist movement made it possible and dare say acceptable for women to appreciate sex and not the "think of England" repression so many were taught earlier. Women having access to reliable birth control and abortions if needed made it easy for women to have many sexual partners without fear. How would a man not benefit from this? Mainstream magazines in the past taught women that to be a good wife you must slick on lipstick before you husband gets home and make sure the pot roast isn't overcooked. Now? It's instructions to do the reverse cowgirl and how to give a mind blowing bj. So how on earth have men not benefited from the womens movement and our lack of sexual repression? 
I think the cause of high divorce/unhappiness in marriage now is that men were not able to progress, if you will. Many, many men were on board with the womens movement and saw it as a ticket to sexual liberation, both for her and for him. What the men failed to realize is that now the women work fulltime outside the home and pull down the same long hours as the man. The men still thought that the women should come home and cook, clean up, tend to the children and then be a sexual bomb in the bedroom. No woman could do all that, unless she is Wonder Woman and even Linda Carter isn't that in real life. So men got resentful. What should have happened? A partnership. A partnership would have benefited everybody enormously. Both come home from work and share in equal responsibilites not a "how can I help you" mentality implying that the onus is on the woman to get everything done and he is just such a trooper for pitching in once in a while. Now women got resentful. 
None of this resentment would have happened (on both sides) if men would have progressed and embraced the womens liberation movement. It would have benefited all involved but it didn't happen that way. Terms like misogyny and chauvenism cropped up because men demanded sex but did little to nothing to deserve it. They still didn't treat women as equals in that the men were not pulling their equal share but there they were using the newfound sexual freedom of women to their advantage and expected it like it was their God given right. Fast forward to today, many, many men still haven't realized that the revolution happened and are vastly unhappy because of it. The women who fought for this cause raised daughters who grew up to be strong, sexually free and storming the castle. These men married those daughters but are stuck in a time warp. So the resentment builds and you see more and more broken homes because of it. Toss in to that mix the easy access to online affairs and actual physical affairs due to websites that make it discrete and available and you see that divorce rate go higher. Toss in the easy access to porn and webcam sites and those numbers go even higher. 
The bottom line is, womens liberation did not harm mens sexuality. You guys did that all on your own.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> Its not yet. Just a topic that tends to get emotional and degrade from there. We are watching, we are always watching.
> 
> Keep up the spirited debate. Very interesting.


The last forum I belonged to, it would have gotten locked already. So far I think its a pretty good discussion, although I know it could turn in the other direction at the drop of a hat.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> You can try to enforce the old broken rules, but the fact is that it's an evolving institution, and doing so is likely to lead to frustration. You can negotiate a new agreement, but it will have to include sex and security, and you might find the male position a lot more fickle than it used to be


OK. You keep working on an assumption that feminism gained women a lot but ultimately caused women to lose a lot more. 

I don't essentially agree with it, but let's say that if it's true then, as a woman, I will take that. Sure, we need to "pay a price" for it, but nothing comes free, right? Ultimately, to me, women gained a lot more than they lost. 

Women lost security and resources expected from and provided by a husband, men lost sex the way sex used to be.
Women gained access to equal career opportunities and exploit it to their advantage. What do men do to get back sex?

I'd say we women don't need to negotiate anything, when it comes to sex. If men want to regain sex with a woman, men need to renegotiate. Ultimately it's up to men, whether they will or won't.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> dear Mr iron wood.
> 
> You are so heavily invested in the porn industry that you couldn't see it straight if you tried, and that's cool.
> 
> But where oh where is your data? Or have you not provided your opinion, the opinion of a man who makes his living off of the commodification of human beings? Sad stuff really. How dare I a mere woman give my opinion on the porn industry, and I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about.


Not at all. I work with a lot of female collegues, and they know what they're talking about. They study sexuality and the porn industry. I mean study it, not read a couple of popular articles by politically motivated writers. Some of the most brilliant minds in the field today are female. So that dog don't hunt.

As far as my data goes, it varies, and I think we can all agree that I've covered a LOT of territory. But if there's a particular fact I've cited that you'd like sourced, I'd be more than happy to. Also, where I've offered an opinion, or made an assumption, or didn't have clear data, I CALLED IT OUT. I always will. 

Admitedly, some of the data I have access to is proprietary and covered by my non-disclosure agreements, but if there's a factual point you disagree with and would like to see support on, by all means, call it out.


Syrum said:


> I also never said that men were not commodified, however the consequences for the men in porn are not the same as the social consequences for women.


Really? So men and women have different types of sexuality? Oh, do go on . . .



Syrum said:


> Sex for women and men is framed very differently. For the most part porn is framed as something being done to women, not active healthy sex between two people,


Except for the massive amount of amateur porn between consenting adults that, by volume, makes up the majority of porn consumed on-line today. So a husband a wife's vacation video is actually him doing stuff to her? All the time?



Syrum said:


> vintage porn used to at least have a story, and wasn't 10 men trying to cum in a woman's face at one etc.


Yes, we all paid SO much attention to the story.

The fact is, the facial has been around forever. The bukake has been around forever. I guess your issue isn't with porn, it's with porn you don't _like_. But do go on . . .



Syrum said:


> (but no that's not degrading, she loves it, mmmm yummy *insert vomit here*). From a societal standpoint in almost every country and this is certainly true in the US women are in a different position economically and certainly socially (**** shaming etc).


And yet despite the better position (not just different, but better), women continue to s1ut-shame each other. Even within all-female cultural groups, s1ut-shaming is still very prevalent. But what was your point?



Syrum said:


> As for some more information about what porn does, here is some great info on what it does to a mans brain. scary stuff.
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> ...



:rofl:

Okay, the guy has some degrees, I'll grant you that. He also has a political axe to grind, and he makes some ASTONISHLINGLY wrong assumptions about the porn industry.

His science (the neuropsychiatry parts) are about 70% solid, I'll grant him that. But he seeks to draw conclusions from apocryphal data and doens't draw a complete picture of the neurochemical response to sexual stimuli. 

In essence, he's taken some incomplete facts and tried to draw a definite conclusion. The work I participated in at Duke University was a lot more comprehensive, and I question a lot of his assumptions that scream of a cultural bias. I'll do some more reasearch though, and look into it.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Ian you will of course dismiss any information I post, because it suits you to do so. just like a crack addict who is not addicted and can give up any time dismisses the stuff they don't want to hear.

However I believe people with a social conscience and the ability to think critically about what they are reading will find the information helpful.

And yes I'd like all your sources, thanks.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Let's face it, we are never going to agree on this. Men want porn, right? It doesn't matter if it hurts their spouse, to heck with them....it's all about me!


And women don't like their men to look at porn. It doesn't matter if it hurts their spouse, to heck with them....it's all about me!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> OK. You keep working on an assumption that feminism gained women a lot but ultimately caused women to lose a lot more.
> 
> I don't essentially agree with it, but let's say that if it's true then, as a woman, I will take that. Sure, we need to "pay a price" for it, but nothing comes free, right? Ultimately, to me, women gained a lot more than they lost.
> 
> ...


Well, you're mostly right. The fact is, internet porn is just half of the new stuff that's going to mess things up. The other half is the invention of serious internet matchmaking and the availability of foreign brides who do not share modern American female sexual values. And the availability of more compatable women, who are more likely to share his personal sexual style than the girl next door, is as close as Match.com. 

But your real competition is coming from above and below. Plenty of cougars who are getting into casual sex, and plenty of young girls who are still sexually experimenting and don't mind a temporary sugar daddy. Male sexual opportunities are going up, as is the liklihood of an extramarital affair . . . and that's great, as long as you don't mind your daughters not having husbands. 

Women don't, indeed, need to renegotiate anything, if they're happy with the status quo. Y'all did gain more than you lost. But what you lost might be a pretty bitter pill to swallow. Unfortunately the viability of a woman of marriagable age to find a long-term relationship (more than 10 years) is slipping rapidly. And while yes, there are plenty of foreign men to fill the gap (and would jump at the chance for a green card) they not only have the same opportunities that American men do, they usually have much more conservative ideas of how women should behave. See: Saudi Arabia.

So that might be it. Your brother marries Consuela or Kim Lee or Ludmilla, who's willing to put up with his sexual appetites because, let's face it, American men aren't as bad to their women culturally as most 3rd world cultures, and it beats getting murdered by your mother-in-law. But meanwhile, you have an endless choice of 2-time losers and American guys with more baggage than they can carry on their own who also fear commitment, thanks to their ex-girlfriends, and every date just seems to convince you more and more that there are no decent guys out there. 

So renegotiate or not. It all depends on what kinds of husbands you want, if any.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> And women don't like their men to look at porn. It doesn't matter if it hurts their spouse, to heck with them....it's all about me!


The larger question is why would it hurt you to NOT look at porn? What is so wrong in your relationship that it would "hurt you" to not look? 
Meh, as I said to Old Wood, we can agree to disagree. Men look at porn. Got it. Then they must realize that any potential fallout from such activity is purely on them. 

Hey, I did post a new topic about porn. Something we can all laugh at. Wanna take a crack at it?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I asked for sources too, Syrum, but he is thick with credentials and running very slim on sources. 

His song is one many men enjoy hearing sung so sources? Who needs stinking sources.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Well, you're mostly right. The fact is, internet porn is just half of the new stuff that's going to mess things up. The other half is the invention of serious internet matchmaking and the availability of foreign brides who do not share modern American female sexual values. And the availability of more compatable women, who are more likely to share his personal sexual style than the girl next door, is as close as Match.com.
> 
> But your real competition is coming from above and below. Plenty of cougars who are getting into casual sex, and plenty of young girls who are still sexually experimenting and don't mind a temporary sugar daddy. Male sexual opportunities are going up, as is the liklihood of an extramarital affair . . . and that's great, as long as you don't mind your daughters not having husbands.
> 
> ...


Awe, the scare tactics. 
Yes, a man only marries an American woman for a green card but a 19 year old girl from Taiwan marries a 40 year old for true love. 
Renegotiate? What is this that you speak of? Didn't we already do this with the womens revolution or has it just now caught up?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I asked for sources too, Syrum, but he is thick with credentials and running very slim on sources.
> 
> His song is one many men enjoy hearing sung so sources? Who needs stinking sources.


Sources? I thought you said sauces because he is pouring it on thick.


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## Lazarus (Jan 17, 2011)

Porn is for losers who can't get a date or feel inadequate in some way, especially if they have the real thing at home. 

It is usually a phase that all teenagers go through but some men become hooked and lose touch with reality. A number of men take it into a normally healthy relationship even after marriage and screw up their marriages.

With the internet almost everyone seems to be using pornography. 

A lot of woman seem to think it is a guy thing but if a man spends hours online staying up till late or sneak viewing porn when a spouse isn’t around it can be as damaging as living with an alcoholic. Like an alcoholic, porn surfers can be in denial, or try to hide it. 

Sometimes it needs a wife to walk out, or for a man to cheat with an online babe to realize that porn can be very harmful in a relationship. 

It can make a woman feel her marriage is ‘crowded’ because she is sharing her man and she is in competition with his cyber babes that are normally airbrushed with perfect bodies. It can be considered as a form of cheating for many women leaving them feeling less secure in a relationship. 

Pornography can destroy a marriage when it crosses over into real lives. It could mean the man may stray and go onto meeting prostitutes, or hanging out in strip clubs, meeting women from sex chat rooms and abusing women generally. 

Women are seen as a commodity, something to be traded and viewed at will. Some men facing conflict using porn tend to become abusiers. Worse, a number of prostitute rings are known to work on social networking sites, therefore, the porn surfer that moves onto the real thing online can potentially invite prostitution straight into a loyal spouse’s home using mobile and messaging as a contact medium. In addition, STDs and AIDS becomes high risk too for a loyal spouse. 

Some men interested in adult pornography may move onto looking at younger women and eventually to teenagers and then onto child pornography. 

Pornography is not harmless entertainment, not if it is a secret stash and hidden from a spouse thus affecting a marriage or normally good relationship.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> While your references are dated, I just interviewed Alexis Texas, a rising pornstar and very intelligent young woman, and she told me point-blank that her sympathies lie with the men in porn. her husband is porn stud Mr. Pete, so she can see both sides.
> 
> Oh, and she really, _really_ loves what she does. Women who don't, don't stay in the industry -- nor should they.


Oh god, did I say inhibition? >.< damn meant to say complete lack, sorry there. A look of women who enjoy what they are doing and feel free to express themselves. And yes, do know most new ones and alexis is indeed a nice one. It's just that some capture me, and some don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> The larger question is why would it hurt you to NOT look at porn? What is so wrong in your relationship that it would "hurt you" to not look?
> Meh, as I said to Old Wood, we can agree to disagree. Men look at porn. Got it. Then they must realize that any potential fallout from such activity is purely on them.
> 
> Hey, I did post a new topic about porn. Something we can all laugh at. Wanna take a crack at it?



Why is your question a "larger" question? Do you see what you're doing?


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Hmmm, the whole porn changes brains things remind me of games. It will rot your brain, make you a murderer, a sociopath, destroy your life, corrupts the young, increases aggression etc. And then most data only shows increase in adrenalin levels which indeed puts you on edge but stops soon after you stop playing. And then playing games has a lot of benefits on spatial recognition, pattern discerning, problem solving etc. And when something bad happens and someone does something bad while he played lots of games, it is always the game's fault.

So I think that porn is just having the same problems. And if what Syr posted is really true, isn't it just maybe possible, that sex (and in some extent porn) plays a more important role in men's life then most women care to admit. Just throwing it out there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Hmmm, the whole porn changes brains things remind me of games. It will rot your brain, make you a murderer, a sociopath, destroy your life, corrupts the young, increases aggression etc. And then most data only shows increase in adrenalin levels which indeed puts you on edge but stops soon after you stop playing. And then playing games has a lot of benefits on spatial recognition, pattern discerning, problem solving etc.
> 
> So I think that porn is just having the same problems. And if what Syr posted is really true, isn't it just maybe possible, that sex plays a more important role in men's life then most women care to admit. Just throwing it out there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They'll admit it. They just don't care until they hit 47


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> Why is your question a "larger" question? Do you see what you're doing?


No, please explain. I am not trying to argue, I am truly curious. :scratchhead:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Hmmm, the whole porn changes brains things remind me of games. It will rot your brain, make you a murderer, a sociopath, destroy your life, corrupts the young, increases aggression etc. And then most data only shows increase in adrenalin levels which indeed puts you on edge but stops soon after you stop playing. And then playing games has a lot of benefits on spatial recognition, pattern discerning, problem solving etc. And when something bad happens and someone does something bad while he played lots of games, it is always the game's fault.
> 
> So I think that porn is just having the same problems. And if what Syr posted is really true, isn't it just maybe possible, that sex (and in some extent porn) plays a more important role in men's life then most women care to admit. Just throwing it out there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So if porn hurts the one you love and you continue to use it, why commit? I don't get it. 
Look, what I am saying is that men and women will always feel different about porn. Some are cool with it and I get that. Many are not. So you risk your primary relationship for what? 
I am actually waiting for Ian's response to my post because I DO value his opinion. He knows the industry from a backseat kind of view and not an actual participant as I was but he seems to have a grasp of its hold over men. Apparently the urge is strong. 
What I cannot wrap my brain around is if porn use is hurtful to your relationship, why continue it? Do men realize that by marginalizing women to a set of holes that they risk the love and respect of their women? Do they even care? :scratchhead:


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> No, please explain. I am not trying to argue, I am truly curious. :scratchhead:


You're minimizing the mans feelings/needs/wants and if he doesn't obey then he is SOL. 


Note: You watch Am. Porn with your man so you have provided an outlet even though he says he doesn't care for it. Hey, maybe all men should say that then maybe the women would take the shackles off


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Oh god, did I say inhibition? >.< damn meant to say complete lack, sorry there. A look of women who enjoy what they are doing and feel free to express themselves. And yes, do know most new ones and alexis is indeed a nice one. It's just that some capture me, and some don't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





> Belladonna
> 
> “I like to hide — hide everything, you know?... And I'm not happy... I don't like myself at all... My whole entire body feels it when I'm doing it and... I feel so — so gross.”
> 
> ...



Pornstars | Former Porn Actress Shelley Lubben

But they love it right?



> So I think that porn is just having the same problems. And if what Syr posted is really true, isn't it just maybe possible, that sex (and in some extent porn) plays a more important role in men's life then most women care to admit. Just throwing it out there.


As for your comment about how important sex is. I agree that it's very important, I mean it's how we got here after all, and sexual attraction is likely what drew us to our mates. I love sex and have a high sex drive. It is very important to me. I would hate to be in a relationship that did not have a very active sex life, and feel for me it's important for my connection to my fiance.

That does not give me the right to participate in something that is damaging. if sex is really important then work in making real sex good with your partner. What you are essentially saying is that your want to look at porn is more important then your real relationships.:scratchhead:



> Hmmm, the whole porn changes brains things remind me of games. It will rot your brain, make you a murderer, a sociopath, destroy your life, corrupts the young, increases aggression etc. And then most data only shows increase in adrenalin levels which indeed puts you on edge but stops soon after you stop playing. And then playing games has a lot of benefits on spatial recognition, pattern discerning, problem solving etc. And when something bad happens and someone does something bad while he played lots of games, it is always the game's fault.


I am not saying that porn or video games make you into a sociopath or a murderer. However it is a fact that we are all heavily influenced and shaped by society and the media. 

On the whole the pornification of women and message that is sent out by the media through, video games, movies, television and porn, is that women are there for sexual titilation of men. It is OK to use and abuse women if you can, and that it is Ok to commodify women. In fact women are often blamed for it, she chose it, she likes it etc. Lame justifications for the degradation of women IMO.

It is clear that men have bought this message (loud and clear) just from reading this thread. So to say that porn or other social media does not influence people is ridiculous, again why do companies spend so much on advertising, well because it works, that is why! It's about having empathy for people, social media that allows people to be degraded and abused, reduces the capacity for society overall to have empathy.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> You're minimizing the mans feelings/needs/wants and if he doesn't obey then he is SOL.
> 
> 
> Note: You watch Am. Porn with your man so you have provided an outlet even though he says he doesn't care for it. Hey, maybe all men should say that then maybe the women would take the shackles off


Again would he be minimising my feelings if I really got off on and felt I "needed" to see him being triple penatrated by three men (one in mouth, two analy) while we had sex. Or perhaps should I be thinking about him and how it would make him feel to have to do this? 

Both people should be putting the needs and feelings of the other person first, that is what makes a great relationship.

Instead of feeling it's my right to see triple male penatration, I could look at my fiance and spend time focusing on what turns us both on and seek mutual satisfaction. Or would I then be in shackles? Oh noes, fancy having to be respectful of partner and our relationship, how bloody unfair.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

So. As I said, I value my relationship way higher than porn. I use it when I want to release, and then only if I want to. Of course it influences you. Everything you come across influences you. If you watch news it will influence you. However, is it necessarily bad. The assumption with some type of media is that it is inherently bad. As with most of the women, I agree that the misusage of porn in a dysfunctional relationship is bad. It is just that it is an easy escape when you dont want to talk about the problems. There should always be talks about this subject and either stop watching, have a compromise or all access. But this is something that should be decided on a per relationship basis. 

What I don't agree with is the notion that porn influences and that the influence is inherently bad. Why is proposing new positions wrong? Why is anal bad, has been done for centuries (and ofcourse gays). I experimented on myself before porn. As far as I know, you can find porn of a threesome in the 1920s. The guys did homosexual stuff up to anal while the other ate the female out. These things have been here before the boom of Internet porn. Why is it a bad thing for a man (could be a woman as well) to see something and think to himself. Seems sweet, let me propose it to her. 

Yes, there are douches who will try to push those through, but there are others who bring it up and give her all rights to veto.

And then my last question. Gay porn. Still bad?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Hmmm, the whole porn changes brains things remind me of games.


Of course "porn changes brains". Everything you do also changes your brain. The porn addict abstaining from porn is getting his brain changed.

It's called "neuroplasticity."

I'm not 'pro-porn' but when I see people's reactions against it, wow, I feel downright like one of those barbarians at the gates. I mean, I have to wonder. Most porn is formulaic and shows a very small number of positions and acts, i.e., kinda boring. If you scroll over to one of the leading streaming porn sites right now they have about 1/10th as much in the "bondage" section as anywhere else. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone draw blood or even get bruised in porn--I don't watch that much--but i've def. been involved in sex acts where that takes place. Hate to break this to anyone but bondage is from before the internet.

It is kind of weird that I'm a few keystrokes away from getting porn. Back in the '90s you usually got a gate site that asked if you were over 18--now you just get a bunch of bodily fluids on your screen and a little logging/reporting notice in the corner.

I've known someone who was in the distro side of porn, earning a very large amount of $$$ in a short time, and someone else who isn't exactly "in" porn but attached to it b/c he works in the party scene. There's reasons people do it that aren't 'bad'.

But



shellebell71 said:


> I've caught him going around the software, to different computers, and most *recently on his phone watching porn* again. He hasn't been to the dating sites as far as I know, but he's gone out of his way to be able to watch porn.


Porn on a phone? Now that's a problem. Someone... has a serious compulsion.

And is there a magnifying glass involved?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> You're minimizing the mans feelings/needs/wants and if he doesn't obey then he is SOL.
> 
> 
> Note: You watch Am. Porn with your man so you have provided an outlet even though he says he doesn't care for it. Hey, maybe all men should say that then maybe the women would take the shackles off


Shackled? Again, so why get married? If men need and crave that variety, why get married? How are "we" minimizing anything. I don't get it. :scratchhead:


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

The double penetration thing. It's turning into a moral panic.

Yeah, if you really want to watch three dudes gang-bang your husband, let him know, but you might have to do some serious negotiating. You might have to settle for something a lot less demanding.

But I don't get it. I mean why people are freaking out over double penetration? There was even an article in Foreign Affairs or the Atlantic about it, talking about how "naturally" men wanted to subjugate women, and the author kept coming back to double anal as an example. You mean like the Double Anal gene? sorry, I don't think that's been discovered yet.

About half of all couples have anal sex once a month. That means your co-workers and friends. But how many humans have managed to get two ****s inside one rectum?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, very few have tried and fewer succeeded.

As far as most of us should be concerned, that's about as likely as meteors crashing into people's cars. Does it happen? Yeah. Is it going to happen to you or anyone you know? Or even a friend of a friend of a friend? I doubt it.

It's like a freak show, just a little nastier. So what's upsetting people about it? I'm just about positive that if someone, male or female, is taking it the hard way for not one, but two, objects, there's a lot of cooperation, muscular control, and lube, involved.

I mean that I almost detect some resentment.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Really...screw a breast reduction, I should just go into porn...become one of those real people screwed (literally) for the enjoyment of others and make a buck doing it. I should contribute positively to a man's BUZZ and lack of control over himself or the vows he takes because, hey, what's the harm anyway...

Men LOVE sex, masturbation is a release, Deep Throat is the wave of the future, emotional connections are unimportant, objects are where it's at.

Really. Where's the balance here?

When will we stop speaking womanspeak and manspeak and demand humanspeak? If we can't, in an anonymous (or as anonymous as we're comfortable with) forum, what hope does the rest of the world have?

Less Disgruntled...I already know your first and last name as well as the music you listened to and your career choice. Think about anonymous for a moment because I'm not even interested in pursing anything beyond mere curiosity but I'm the exception.

Roger. Roger. Over and out.

It's time we work on solving issues rather than indulging in selfish whims or morbidity.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Instead of feeling it's my right to see triple male penatration, I could look at my fiance and spend time focusing on what turns us both on and seek mutual satisfaction.


If you really want it, you can ask.

I'm going to guess that if you have a request that far-out, you probably don't expect much in the way of fulfillment--so if there's no pressure, is it a problem if it never happens?



> Or would I then be in shackles? Oh noes, fancy having to be respectful of partner and our relationship, how bloody unfair.


That's why it might never happen. And if it hurts to ask--why is it hurtful? Part of respect is letting "no" be an answer.

OTOH if you have a genuine obsession at some point you'll have to figure something out, even if it's just watching male-on-male-on-male-on-male action while you do it w/ your man.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Awe, hell...I should have posted this months ago but here goes. 
Young, came from an abusive but wealthy home, worthless and stupid. Thankfully not on drugs just totally lacking in self esteem/worth. Found the closest loser to "love" me and he in order to pay the rent got me into porn. He knew people on the set. The set where two men penetrated me as I cried. Apparently I wasn't cut out for this but I still tried to impress my boyfriend. I did whatever was ordered of me. It was fun....for them. Oral sex for seemingly hours and vaginal sex for a lifetime. It is fun, right? No, it wasn't. 
Porn is harmless after all. It doesn't abuse women in any way.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Draguna said:


> So. As I said, I value my relationship way higher than porn. I use it when I want to release, and then only if I want to. Of course it influences you. Everything you come across influences you. If you watch news it will influence you. However, is it necessarily bad. The assumption with some type of media is that it is inherently bad. As with most of the women, I agree that the misusage of porn in a dysfunctional relationship is bad. It is just that it is an easy escape when you dont want to talk about the problems. There should always be talks about this subject and either stop watching, have a compromise or all access. But this is something that should be decided on a per relationship basis.


If men really value their relationships over porn and don't have entitlement issues, then they should just give up the porn and focus on how to make their relationship wonderful. Spend that time noticing the wonderful and unique things about their wives, and notice the little things they like, spend time connecting with the women they claim to love. I can assure you if more men did this their sex lives would be out of this world.


> What I don't agree with is the notion that porn influences and that the influence is inherently bad. Why is proposing new positions wrong? Why is anal bad, has been done for centuries (and ofcourse gays). I experimented on myself before porn. As far as I know, you can find porn of a threesome in the 1920s. The guys did homosexual stuff up to anal while the other ate the female out. These things have been here before the boom of Internet porn. Why is it a bad thing for a man (could be a woman as well) to see something and think to himself. Seems sweet, let me propose it to her.


The women in porn are asked to participate in ever more degrading and painful porn. The women in porn are for the most part not enjoying it, they are paid to make it look like they are and every increasingly in main stream porn (which is really hard core IMO) women often have pained looks on their faces.

So what's wrong with it? you are taking **** sex and getting very turned on by it, and trying to introduce that ****ty sex into your own sex life, often measuring sex with your spouse with the awful sex in porn, and begin to see that there is nothing wrong with it. It becomes a norm and obviously as you have proven my point again become completely brainwashed in the process. It is a perfect example of exactly the harm does.




> And then my last question. Gay porn. Still bad?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I would say gay porn is still bad, but ti does not have the wide stream effect that hetro porn has, which is still the most popular form of porn. anything that commodifies people and takes away the connection we are supposed to have during sex and replaces it with junk is harmful.

Moreover, gay porn (talking about male on male) is about men doing things to men. Hetro porn is about men doing things to women which is a whole different ball game when you look at social equality and past and current treatment of women by some men and that is rampant in the sex industry and the social context of that. Porn is a way of saying women are not valuable as people, they throw away commodities to be used and abused.

Porn is not harmless.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Yes I would say gay porn is still bad, but ti does not have the wide stream effect that hetro porn has, which is still the most popular form of porn. anything that commodifies people and takes away the connection we are supposed to have during sex and replaces it with junk is harmful.
> 
> Moreover, gay porn (talking about male on male) is about men doing things to men. Hetro porn is about men doing things to women which is a whole different ball game when you look at social equality and past and current treatment of women by some men and that is rampant in the sex industry and the social context of that. Porn is a way of saying women are not valuable as people, they throw away commodities to be used and abused.
> 
> Porn is not harmless.


And we are so not projecting :/


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Awe, hell...I should have posted this months ago but here goes.
> Young, came from an abusive but wealthy home, worthless and stupid. Thankfully not on drugs just totally lacking in self esteem/worth. Found the closest loser to "love" me and he in order to pay the rent got me into porn. He knew people on the set. The set where two men penetrated me as I cried. Apparently I wasn't cut out for this but I still tried to impress my boyfriend. I did whatever was ordered of me. It was fun....for them. Oral sex for seemingly hours and vaginal sex for a lifetime. It is fun, right? No, it wasn't.
> Porn is harmless after all. It doesn't abuse women in any way.


 that is really awful, but apparantly easy to dismiss as long as men think you liked it and they got their orgasm.

What happened to you was manipulation and abuse, and men are basing their sex lives from that. That is just terrifying really.

I'm sorry that happened to you. 

I just wonder how good sex would be if we were really free to explore sexuality without the shackles of social influence, that has made men think porn sex is what they need and want. if people were free from these images, and women were free to be sexual without the negative connotations often mirrored in porn and by society, we could all be having awesome sex, with people who really cared about us. And getting off on what naturally turned us on and not what porn told us turns us on.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

As for this whole men getting a buzz thing and needing a buzz? It's a load of nonsense as far I'm concerned. Who doesn't get a buzz from new and exciting sex and relationships?

Women get just as much of a high and a buzz, and they do from flirting and other encounters too. This doesn't make it right or OK. instead of chasing the buzz and making excuses for that behaviour we need to understand there are lots of things that will make us feel good for a moment, but lets compare that to the damage it can do to our lives and decide what is more important.

I mean let's face it, people who have affairs are chasing that buzz and lots of women do that too. Anytime you choose instant gratification or getting a buzz in any form over the well being of your relationship, you have crossed a line.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Yeah, it was all about the "fun".


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Awe, hell...I should have posted this months ago but here goes.
> Young, came from an abusive but wealthy home, worthless and stupid. Thankfully not on drugs just totally lacking in self esteem/worth. Found the closest loser to "love" me and he in order to pay the rent got me into porn. He knew people on the set. The set where two men penetrated me as I cried. Apparently I wasn't cut out for this but I still tried to impress my boyfriend. I did whatever was ordered of me. It was fun....for them. Oral sex for seemingly hours and vaginal sex for a lifetime. It is fun, right? No, it wasn't.
> Porn is harmless after all. It doesn't abuse women in any way.


That is exploitation and obviously so. I'd guess it is common. I'm not going to try to defend the porn industry, especially not in light of something like that. I'm also not going to defend anyone's husband who is devoting any significant portion of his life to porn. As respectfully as possible, I'd also guess that stories like those of the guy in the general forum whose fiance went from a B cup to EE and quit her job to go into porn are there, too.

What I am trying to say is that it's okay to be into kink and that porn isn't the cause of all men's sexual proclivities--and that women also have unusual desires as well.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Moreover, gay porn (talking about male on male) is about men doing things to men. Hetro porn is about men doing things to women which is a whole different ball game when you look at social equality and past and current treatment of women by some men and that is rampant in the sex industry and the social context of that. Porn is a way of saying women are not valuable as people, they throw away commodities to be used and abused.
> 
> Porn is not harmless.



This is right and an oversight on my part--there are far less men coerced into porn than women.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Awe, hell...I should have posted this months ago but here goes.
> Young, came from an abusive but wealthy home, worthless and stupid. Thankfully not on drugs just totally lacking in self esteem/worth. Found the closest loser to "love" me and he in order to pay the rent got me into porn. He knew people on the set. The set where two men penetrated me as I cried. Apparently I wasn't cut out for this but I still tried to impress my boyfriend. I did whatever was ordered of me. It was fun....for them. Oral sex for seemingly hours and vaginal sex for a lifetime. It is fun, right? No, it wasn't.
> Porn is harmless after all. It doesn't abuse women in any way.


Damn. That is horrible Brennan.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Shackled? Again, so why get married? If men need and crave that variety, why get married? How are "we" minimizing anything. I don't get it. :scratchhead:



How don't you get that you are saying your needs/wants are more important than his needs/wants. Let's look at it a different way. Your husband likes to undress 20 yr old ladies. Thats his thing. He enjoys it. If you attempt to take that away because you feel upset about it then you are putting your feelings ahead
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> How don't you get that you are saying your needs/wants are more important than his needs/wants. Let's look at it a different way. Your husband likes to undress 20 yr old ladies. Thats his thing. He enjoys it. If you attempt to take that away because you feel upset about it then you are putting your feelings ahead
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is absolute rubbish. Porn isn't even a need. You can live very well without it. However most people don't live very well without loving relationships.

We all have things that are no goes in our relationships, it is perfectly Ok to set boundaries and say what isn't acceptable. or else we'd all be out doing whatever with however, and just use the excuse "Well stop putting your want for me to be faithful obove my want to fu<k everything."

Your idea is very flawed.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> That is absolute rubbish. Porn isn't even a need. You can live very well without it. However most people don't live very well without loving relationships.
> 
> We all have things that are no goes in our relationships, it is perfectly Ok to set boundaries and say what isn't acceptable. or else we'd all be out doing whatever with however, and just use the excuse "Well stop putting your want for me to be faithful obove my want to fu<k everything."
> 
> Your idea is very flawed.


Still waiting for you to show me where I said a wife should allow her husband to watch her getting DP'd. 

It's perfectly find to set boundaries. My boundary can be that I watch porn. Still waiting for an answer as to why your boundary is greater than mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Still waiting for you to show me where I said a wife should allow her husband to watch her getting DP'd.
> 
> It's perfectly find to set boundaries. My boundary can be that I watch porn. Still waiting for an answer as to why your boundary is greater than mine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't say you said that, I am saying it.

I have answered you, you are twisting things, and making them into something they are not. Your boundary is that porn is OK, but if your wifes isn't either you care enough about her to not watch porn or you don't. 

I am saying that if you say your boundary is porn is OK and her boundary is screwing around is OK, then of course you have a right to say, that isn't cool with me, screwing around would hurt me, I class it as something that isn't OK in our relationship and she has just as much right to say that about porn.

Both people have a right to say, these are my relationship boundaries, if you cross them you will hurt me and our relationship. That doesn't make any ones want greater than anyone elses, that just makes sure both people understand and respect the relationship they are in and put the other person and their feelings first. If porn is that much of a want for you that you would risk your relationship for it, and claim it's a huge need, then you have a real problem.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Just a question - does anybody work or have a life? You guys have been going back and forth for a while now - HA.

Didn't know posting this would cause such a spirited debate (or maybe I did).

I only get on TAM when I have a break at work, no time when I get home (too busy trying to keep hubby from driving me crazy), and weekends - forget it!

Just askin'...LOL


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

I can't speak for others, but I usually work from home, so I find the extra time when I can, if I don't have alot to do at the time. 

But, this certainly has been a hot topic!


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> I didn't say you said that, I am saying it.
> 
> I have answered you, you are twisting things, and making them into something they are not. Your boundary is that porn is OK, but if your wifes isn't either you care enough about her to not watch porn or you don't.
> 
> ...


Lol now me watching porn is the same as my girl wanting me to be taking it in the anus and two in the mouth. That's what you said right? Ok
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

I am on a different time zone. It's night time over here and I am going to bed soon. :sleeping:


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Kobo said:


> How don't you get that you are saying your needs/wants are more important than his needs/wants. Let's look at it a different way. Your husband likes to undress 20 yr old ladies. Thats his thing. He enjoys it. If you attempt to take that away because you feel upset about it then you are putting your feelings ahead
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Disagree - if he wanted to undress 20 yr old ladies, then why get married?

He could have stayed single and undressed them all he wanted and it wouldn't have hurt anyone.

The main point being - that you GUYS seem to keep missing here is - if you LOVE your spouse, then STOP doing something that is causing them pain, if they have expressed that it does.

I STOP any behavior that causes my husband to feel hurt or feel pain, when he expresses that it does, even if I don't want to or it's something that I enjoy - why - *because I love him and it's MORE important to not cause him pain, than to keep doing something that I KNOW is hurting him* - it's called LOVING UNSELFISHLY.

You just don't get it and you're not alone...if you guys GOT IT more, we probably wouldn't have a problem.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

AgentD said:


> I can't speak for others, but I usually work from home, so I find the extra time when I can, if I don't have alot to do at the time.
> 
> But, this certainly has been a hot topic!


I was just jesting - no harm done!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Syrum said:


> I am on a different time zone. It's night time over here and I am going to bed soon. :sleeping:


I tend to forget sometimes that there are different people on different time zones across the "world." Living in the US, I tend to forget that this is the "internet", not the "USnet."


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Lol now me watching porn is the same as my girl wanting me to be taking it in the anus and two in the mouth. That's what you said right? Ok
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe to her it is. It is to me, it's a serious issue to me. So porn is so important you, but you get to decide the signifigance and hurt it may cause your partner?:scratchhead:

The point is take something that would make you very uncomfortable or upset and feelings are the same. It's called empathy and understanding.

I view porn as infidelity, it is bringing an outside person into our sex lives. 

I also don't want a man who can't understand that using porn in which women are often bullied, abused, raped and degraded is not OK. I don't want a man that selfish.

But I don't expect to be able to be selfish either. He tells me what is and isn't OK too. And we both respect and care about each other. It's really nice and leads to great sex, you should try it. Because I feel like above all else he respects me absolutely and puts me first, I feel safe with him, I love him very much and would do just about anything for him. It makes me trust him fully, I trust him enough to be open and honest and tell him everything. And he shares his fantasies with me too, and we act on them.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Disagree - if he wanted to undress 20 yr old ladies, then why get married?


My guess is, alot of men want mothers. They want their food made, laundry done, kids taken care, etc, etc. Of course sex too, but when they are no longer interested, they turn to porn but still expect, food to be cooked, errands ran, laundry done etc.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Disagree - if he wanted to undress 20 yr old ladies, then why get married?
> 
> He could have stayed single and undressed them all he wanted and it wouldn't have hurt anyone.
> 
> ...



So if you restricting your husbands use of porn hurts him will you allow it in some fashion or are your feelings more important?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Maybe to her it is. It is to me, it's a serious issue to me. So porn is so important you, but you get to decide the signifigance and hurt it may cause your partner?:scratchhead:
> 
> The point is take something that would make you very uncomfortable or upset and feelings are the same. It's called empathy and understanding.
> 
> ...


So if my wife likes to hang out with her girlfriends and I'm insecure and get hurt because I think she is cheating on me with her friends. Do I get to set a boundry that you can't hang out with them or do I find a compromise?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> So if you restricting your husbands use of porn hurts him will you allow it in some fashion or are your feelings more important?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:
If restricting porn hurts him, I would say he needs to see a psychiatrist and my point about porn being harmful will have been well and truely without a doubt proven. Hurt over not being able to watch porn pffft. I nearly spat my tea on my computer.:rofl:

If he doesn't willingly stop watching porn despite the fact it would ruin our relationship for him to do so then he is not the guy for me, and I would be gone, proving to me that he didn't really have the capacity to act like a real man and prioritise the important things.

Note -However I too am hurting over *insert ridiculous reason here*


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> :rofl:
> If restricting porn hurts him, I would say he needs to see a psychiatrist and my point about porn being harmful will have been well and truely without a doubt proven. Hurt over not being able to watch porn pffft. I nearly spat my tea on my computer.:rofl:
> 
> If he doesn't willingly stop watching porn despite the fact it would ruin our relationship for him to do so then he is not the guy for me, and I would be gone, proving to me that he didn't really have the capacity to act like a real man and prioritise the important things.
> ...


I'm sorry he treated you that way. I hope one day you get past it. Whatever it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> So if my wife likes to hang out with her girlfriends and I'm insecure and get hurt because I think she is cheating on me with her friends. Do I get to set a boundry that you can't hang out with them or do I find a compromise?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah that's exactly the same. Hanging out with friends, who are of the same sex, who she does not masturbate over and are not exploited and harmed. Lol

If however you had serious reasons to believe she was cheating, then sure it's perfectly reasonable.

Grasping at straws dude!


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Yeah that's exactly the same. Hanging out with friends, who are of the same sex, who she does not masturbate over and are not exploited and harmed. Lol
> 
> If however you had serious reasons to believe she was cheating, then sure it's perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Grasping at straws dude!


So what your really saying is I don't hive w Damn about my man's needs/wants/feelings/ if they differ from what I think is right. Gotya.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> I'm sorry he treated you that way. I hope one day you get past it. Whatever it is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:

Me too.

However it wouldn't happen that way, because I don't pretend to get hurt when he asks or suggest I don't do something perfectly reasonable, that I can see upsets and hurts him, because i love him and care about his comfort level in the relationship and happiness. Weird huh?

If he told me I did something that hurt him, I know he is loving and caring and reasonable, so i would believe him and just stop doing it.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Me too.
> 
> ...


Who gets to decide what is "perfectly reasonable"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> So what your really saying is I don't hive w Damn about my man's needs/wants/feelings/ if they differ from what I think is right. Gotya.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


no that's what you would be saying if you continued to use porn and put it before your relationship.

I don't have double standards and I know he has things he would prefer me not to do, that I would do if perhaps I was single, but I am not immature enough to try and twist it so he looks like the bad guy. I know it's reasonable. I wouldn't want to hurt him.

And man you must have a hell of an addiction to porn to need to keep trying to justify your actions this way, it must have huge grip on you if it's so important. that's scary!


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> no that's what you would be saying if you continued to use porn and put it before your relationship.
> 
> I don't have double standards and I know he has things he would prefer me not to do, that I would do if perhaps I was single, but I am not immature enough to try and twist it so he looks like the bad guy. I know it's reasonable. I wouldn't want to hurt him.
> 
> And man you must have a hell of an addiction to porn to need to keep trying to justify your actions this way, it must have huge grip on you if it's so important. that's scary!



Yup huge addiction to porn. That's me and everybody else that doesn't agree with you huh?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Who gets to decide what is "perfectly reasonable"?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*sigh* 

We both do, and most people just know when a request is reasonable or not. It's not Ok for example to tell someone they can never eat cheese again if it doesn't hurt you or them, but it is Ok to say no to porn, gambling, excessive drinking, flirting, sexting, overspending etc. Perfectly reasonable examples.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> *sigh*
> 
> We both do, and most people just know when a request is reasonable or not. It's not Ok for example to tell someone they can never eat cheese again if it doesn't hurt you or them, but it is Ok to say no to porn, gambling, excessive drinking, flirting, sexting, overspending etc. Perfectly reasonable examples.


So if he believes it is reasonable to view porn then its ok since you both get to decide?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Yup huge addiction to porn. That's me and everybody else that doesn't agree with you huh?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I just can't see any other reason why someone would come up with so many strange reasons as to why porn is so acceptable. Why they would be so invested in porn. 

If you aren't addicted then rationally think about why it hurts women and walk away.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> So if he believes it is reasonable to view porn then its ok since you both get to decide?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Umm we both let each other know what is not acceptable, so we both do, that's what fair and reasonable people do. He just doesn't seem to care about porn because he gets what he wants from me, and understands my objectification to it. By no means is he a push over who does not tell me what he thinks of things, he's very opinionated and we have often had debates about social issues etc.

He wears the pants in our relationship well and truelly, and his opinion matters more to me than any one elses.

He's just a caring reasonable guy who respects women and puts me first. Thats what real men do! And it's hot.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Well I just can't see any other reason why someone would come up with so many strange reasons as to why porn is so acceptable. Why they would be so invested in porn.
> 
> If you aren't addicted then rationally think about why it hurts women and walk away.



I've spent more time in this thread than I have on porn in the last month. Why can't you look at why men enjoy porn and walk away?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> I've spent more time in this thread than I have on porn in the last month. Why can't you look at why men enjoy porn and walk away?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have allready outlined why not. Reread the thread.

Straws.. grasping etc


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> I have allready outlined why not. Reread the thread.
> 
> Straws.. grasping etc


So we get back to main issue that you believe your needs and feelings are more valid than his. Get it, got it, good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> So we get back to main issue that you believe your needs and feelings are more valid than his. Get it, got it, good
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Reread the thread

*yawn*

Porn is bad you know it, you have been bested, move on.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Reread the thread
> 
> *yawn*
> 
> Porn is bad you know it, you have been bested, move on.


Wow. Porn is bad, Im insecure about it. It must be true. Thank God for my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Wow. Porn is bad, Im insecure about it. It must be true. Thank God for my wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup:


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Ian,
> Why do you think that the male sexual value was in the toilet due to the feminist movement? I disagree. I think the feminist movement made it possible and dare say acceptable for women to appreciate sex and not the "think of England" repression so many were taught earlier. Women having access to reliable birth control and abortions if needed made it easy for women to have many sexual partners without fear. How would a man not benefit from this?


Depends on the age of the man. For a young man, it's a coochie-filled environment just laden with nymphs. For a married man, the security that once was implicit in marriage lost out to the possibility of divorce and abandonment. For a divorced man, it's a bittersweet, jaded exercise in one-night stands and half-relationships with no real hope of commitment. So yeah, over-all it's been a good thing for men, bad thing for marriages and married men.



Brennan said:


> Mainstream magazines in the past taught women that to be a good wife you must slick on lipstick before you husband gets home and make sure the pot roast isn't overcooked. Now? It's instructions to do the reverse cowgirl and how to give a mind blowing bj. So how on earth have men not benefited from the womens movement and our lack of sexual repression?


Again, I agree, the opening up of female sexuality has been a net-gain for men, sexually. But that doesn't mean that there aren't power inequities and lingering issues, particularly considering the anti-traditional-male state of the economy. I'd never want to go back to the 1950s again -- I'm thrilled that feminism and birth control gave women their sexual freedom. But I'm also acknowledging that as wonderful as that is, in terms of the marital agreement and the balance of sexual power, men feel like their diminished status has not been balanced with the gains that women have made. Part of the problem is that our culture is still adjusting to the idea of a sexually liberated woman (or a man, for that matter) and was only just beginning to establish some rules when the Internet blew up and threw all the rules in the blender. 

Think of it this analogy: without telling you, your husband goes out and sells your house and buys a new house. The new house is bigger, nicer, and you have all the things you wanted in it, but the fact is you weren't consulted or asked for your opinion on such a profoundly important matter to the marriage. Further, you didn't even think you needed a new house -- and it's nice -- but you liked the old house. It's too late now, since the new owners are moving in and your husband packed up all your stuff for you, but what kind of resentment do you feel? Do you feel marginalized in the relationship? Do you feel as if he cut you out of the process -- and what was his motivation for doing so?




Brennan said:


> I think the cause of high divorce/unhappiness in marriage now is that men were not able to progress, if you will. Many, many men were on board with the womens movement and saw it as a ticket to sexual liberation, both for her and for him. What the men failed to realize is that now the women work fulltime outside the home and pull down the same long hours as the man. The men still thought that the women should come home and cook, clean up, tend to the children and then be a sexual bomb in the bedroom.


You're partially right. Many men were initially on board with the women's movement, because they saw the sexual freedom angle and once a dude sees boobs, he usually quits thinking about bigger issues. And that was part of the problem: men didn't understand that their wives suddenly wanting a career and making money meant that the traditional division of labor was over -- but that was just the beginning. It wasn't about housework. As less-progressive men clung to the traditional idea of marriage (and started the conservative movement as a result) the more progressive men quickly lost faith in the women's movement. It wasn't about chores -- guys know how to vacuum and do laundry. My dad cleaned as much as my mom, and did yard work and car repairs too. It was about the emergence of undefiined roles and misunderstood perceptions about what marriage is supposed to be, all the way around. And when that first big wave of divorces hit in the mid 1970s, that was the end of most mainstream men's enthusiasm for the women's movement. Sure, it got them plenty of easy tail in 1972, but it also gave then a nasty divorce, alimony, and child custody issues in 1976. 

In fact it wasn't the male expectations about female roles in marriage that was the problem nearly as much as that men and women didn't know what "being married" really meant anymore. The security-for-sex paradigm we inherited no longer applied, and as that undermined the traditional basis for those marriages, what was left was love and romance and children. Oh, there was a fair amount of increasingly-better sex, too, but there were so many issues with sex arising that it was often hard to look at that as a good thing. HIV, herpes, accidental pregnancy, and a massive spike in the number of extramarital affairs made sex a scary thing by 1981.

But that didn't mean that men's expectations of sex in marriage went away, and while most enjoyed the fact that their wives were a lot more liberal-minded than their mothers' generation about sex, men in general were looking for some larger benefit from the woman's movement . . . but instead they felt assaulted by the bewildering whirlwind of sexual changes. Women weren't any better off -- perhaps worse, since they were still defining what it meant to be a modern woman -- but the culture encouraged a combative approach to male-female relations, and the fallout wasn't pretty.



Brennan said:


> No woman could do all that, unless she is Wonder Woman and even Linda Carter isn't that in real life. So men got resentful. What should have happened? A partnership. A partnership would have benefited everybody enormously. Both come home from work and share in equal responsibilites not a "how can I help you" mentality implying that the onus is on the woman to get everything done and he is just such a trooper for pitching in once in a while. Now women got resentful.


Sure, but the political climate at that crucial stage favored confrontation, not partnership. The women's movement lost control of itself when it transformed from a small, fairly-well organized political movement into a broad, cross-cultural atom bomb of change in mainstream culture, and the ladies at the time saw "partnership" as what would be left after they had reduced the male power structure to ashes. Instead of telling American men collectively, "Hey, give us a few years to straighten this out, okay?" it shouted loudly at them "YOU are the problem!". Male-bashing became easy and consequence-free. In that climate, even the progressive men were feeling resentful and bitter, because even though they supported the movement in spirit, they were lumped in with all men. In the 1980s if you were a guy, unless you were gay you were a political threat and potential rapist. "Nice Guys" (which the women's movement had mistakenly said women wanted in the early days) got lumped in with all the other penises, so the women's movement ended up alienating it's best allies. So women got resentful (1960s, early 1970s), then men got resentful (late 1970s to mid-1980s), then women got even MORE resentful (late 1980s-early 1990s) but a little more willing to compromise, as the next generation of women came of age. And about that time, when it was men's turn to be resentful, it manifested itself with the sudden availability of free internet porn and really cool video games, not to mention a booming economy and the "Presidential" definition of what sex was, and for a little while things chilled out.

But the resentment wasn't gone, it was just getting old, and becoming an accepted part of the culture. So was divorce, single-parent families, serial monogamy, parental kidnapping, casual internet sex, and mid-life crises.



Brennan said:


> None of this resentment would have happened (on both sides) if men would have progressed and embraced the womens liberation movement. It would have benefited all involved but it didn't happen that way.


I disagree. The women's movement wanted to overturn the establish order and then implement new social rules and guidelines without consulting -- or even wanting to consult -- the male side of the Force. While their goals were noble, the way it actually happened was pretty ugly, and no one gave any thought to how men would react to it. The fact is, most American men were willing to accept the social changes, but felt resentment in the way in which they had been implemented. It wasn't a re-negotiation of the social contract, it was the sudden and determined action of one side to change it unilaterally. And since a lot of those changes ran counter to the interests of men -- and worse, defamed masculinity altogether -- then "embracing the women's movement" was tacitly endorsing the idea that it was All Men's Fault. As it was, men lost out more than they gained, and it's not surprising that they reacted the way that they did. Because the women's movement didn't just attack social and legal injustice, it attacked the very concept of masculinity as a positive force in the universe. And if you have testicles, you kinda take that personally.



Brennan said:


> Terms like misogyny and chauvenism cropped up because men demanded sex but did little to nothing to deserve it. They still didn't treat women as equals in that the men were not pulling their equal share but there they were using the newfound sexual freedom of women to their advantage and expected it like it was their God given right.


In some cases. But most mainstream American men went along with the social changes because they recognized the injustices, knew there was no going back, and hoped that the promise of more freely-available sex was worth the loss of status and power that had been forced on them. And it's arguable that men weren't pulling their equal share -- it all depends on how you measure such things.



Brennan said:


> Fast forward to today, many, many men still haven't realized that the revolution happened and are vastly unhappy because of it. The women who fought for this cause raised daughters who grew up to be strong, sexually free and storming the castle. These men married those daughters but are stuck in a time warp.


Not exactly a time-warp -- they still cling to the old conception of marriage, because that's what they've been told morally and religiously is a good thing. But no man in his right mind (outside of Amish country) is going to try to deny that the woman's movement happened. We get our noses rubbed in it every day. And the unhappiness that you see is directly related to the lack of an established new social contract about marriage that they see as advantageous for their interests. 

They aren't stuck in a time warp -- they're waiting for a new model to emerge that they can buy into. In the meantime they're clinging to the ideal of what marriage used to be and often becoming bitterly disappointed . . . or just not getting married at all. 



Brennan said:


> So the resentment builds and you see more and more broken homes because of it. Toss in to that mix the easy access to online affairs and actual physical affairs due to websites that make it discrete and available and you see that divorce rate go higher. Toss in the easy access to porn and webcam sites and those numbers go even higher.
> 
> The bottom line is, womens liberation did not harm mens sexuality. You guys did that all on your own.


Nah, we were largely bystanders in the women's movement. Oh, we enjoyed the new sexuality, but it came at a very high price from a male perspective. Add to it the loss of status, the humiliating view of masculinity as a negative, the loss of any real leverage in a relationship, and the diminished economic power of traditional male jobs (manufacturing and raw resource harvesting in particular) and we're essentially suffering from a huge, multi-generational masculine snit. 

In olden days we would have just repressed our collective emotions and dealt with it with a war or something, slept with a few native girls, and went back home with a guilty smile on our faces and glory in our hearts to distract us from the issue -- but the women's movement brought communication between the genders so much to the fore than we can't respond like that anymore. Y'all won't let us. The generation raised during those early years (and I'm included in this one) was raised with decidedly female-oriented sexual values in mind (in part due to the incredibly high numbers of single-mom homes), including not suppressing emotions, communicating our feelings, and an insistence on attempting to achieve understanding instead of engage in conflict. Just what the women's movement wanted to do -- train a new generation of boys to grow up without the hated, atavistic and chauvinistic attitudes that they despised in their fathers. 

Only problem is, that didn't give them the men they wanted. It gave them men who didn't understand or really know how to be men, and who were whiny and argumentative because that's how communication and emotional sharing sounds when it comes out of a dude's mouth. Instead of seeing women as respectable figures in their lives, these mostly-fatherless ("weekend dad") boys often came to view women with contempt, as wardens and harridans. Because when they made it through puberty and got to high school, they quickly learned that being communicative and emotive and understanding DID NOT GET YOU LAID. And to a high school boy, that's about the most important thing in the world. But sharing, communication, and emotion are not strong attractions to young women, status, success, and attitude are.

So they d!cked out. Because a girl may like you to be understanding and caring, but the dudes she sleeps with are the ones who treat her . . . pretty much like her grandfather probably treated her grandmother. The disconnect between what women say they wanted and what women proved they wanted was so vast that it undermined their credibility in other ways in the eyes of that generation.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Lazarus said:


> Porn is for losers who can't get a date or feel inadequate in some way, especially if they have the real thing at home.
> 
> It is usually a phase that all teenagers go through but some men become hooked and lose touch with reality. A number of men take it into a normally healthy relationship even after marriage and screw up their marriages.
> 
> ...


Please read the thread to see my cogent refutation of pretty much every argument you just made.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> So if porn hurts the one you love and you continue to use it, why commit? I don't get it.
> Look, what I am saying is that men and women will always feel different about porn. Some are cool with it and I get that. Many are not. So you risk your primary relationship for what?
> I am actually waiting for Ian's response to my post because I DO value his opinion. He knows the industry from a backseat kind of view and not an actual participant as I was but he seems to have a grasp of its hold over men. Apparently the urge is strong.
> What I cannot wrap my brain around is if porn use is hurtful to your relationship, why continue it? Do men realize that by marginalizing women to a set of holes that they risk the love and respect of their women? Do they even care? :scratchhead:


Of course they care. But it's a pretty easy alternative, compared to the hoops they perceive they have to jump through for having uninspiring sex with their wives. You might not think so, but from the male perspective even what you might think of as casual married sex still requires a lot of effort and energy, and if you want all the bells and whistles, it can be exhausting -- particularly if there's no guaranteed outcome. Most men are up to the challenge at need, of course, but a couple of discouraging days and yeah, whacking off to porn is more desirable than sitting through a half-hour of listening about her day, discussing what her girlfriends/mother/sisters/girlfriends are doing, offering opinions about a whole lot of stuff we just don't give a damn about, feigning interest in her opinions about stuff that we just don't give a damn about, finding some way to relax her enough so that the possibility of sex is even there, and then find some way to charmingly get passed her low self-esteem, convince her that you're being sincere, provide an adequate enough amount of foreplay and a satisfactory main-event, then deal with the emotional fall-out if things didn't go as planned and/or the inevitable cuddles and pillow-talk that we kinda like, but might not be in the mood for. 

In other words, sometimes a man doesn't want the 14 point inspection, he just wants his oil changed.

The urge isn't just strong, it can be overpowering. Testosterone does really whacky things to a dude's head, and the serotonin you get from fulfilling those desires is really quite calming and relaxing. The desire to explore your fantasy life under the influence of testosterone is so potent that potential damage to the relationship is secondary. Sure, you think that the relationship should have primary priority, always -- but consider this: in Iran, the penalty for possessing porn is death. And yet men will still go out of their way to endanger not just their relationships, but their _lives_ for it. It's not that porn is that evil that it seduces them like a real woman would -- it's that the desire to explore our sexuality through a visual means is overwhelming. Even if we can't have access to porn we'll express it by mentally undressing and screwing every woman we meet. 

As a woman, you're familiar with the potency of hormones in your life. Well, male hormones are just as potent, and when they start boiling, we're no more able to control our desires about sex than you are able to control your cramps during menstruation. Only we can't predict when our hormones are going to surge, or for how long, and since testosterone is also a major key in competitive business environments, the more we have the better providers we tend to be, so the allure is natural.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian,
I 100% disagree with you that the womens movement harmed men or held them back in any way. In the words of the wise and funny Chris Rock "If you guys are loosing....whose winning?"


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> What you are essentially saying is that your want to look at porn is more important then your real relationships.:scratchhead:


No. What I'm saying is that looking at porn is one of the ways in which men express and explore their sexuality, so that they may be equipped to be in and stay in a real relationship. I consider it a natural part of their sexuality. And a woman who insisted that her husband didn't view porn and focus instead all of his erotic attention on her, exclusively, may find some of the sparkle leave the relationship, eventually. You still don't understand just how important that sort of thing is to a healthy male sexuality.




Syrum said:


> .
> 
> On the whole the pornification of women and message that is sent out by the media through, video games, movies, television and porn, is that women are there for sexual titilation of men.


Not JUST for that. But it also follows by the same token that men are there to provide security and resources ("money" and "status") for women. I'm as appalled by the one as the other, aren't you?



Syrum said:


> It is OK to use and abuse women if you can, and that it is Ok to commodify women. In fact women are often blamed for it, she chose it, she likes it etc. Lame justifications for the degradation of women IMO.


Men are ALWAYS blamed for it. I feel your pain.

And again, you're going to be just as appalled by the degradation of men? And how the female-dominated fashion industry degrades human beings of both genders?



Syrum said:


> It is clear that men have bought this message (loud and clear) just from reading this thread. So to say that porn or other social media does not influence people is ridiculous, again why do companies spend so much on advertising, well because it works, that is why! It's about having empathy for people, social media that allows people to be degraded and abused, reduces the capacity for society overall to have empathy.



I still haven't seen anything that convinces me that the media is to blame for the fact that men like looking at porn. Guys looked at porn long before there was a media. 

And you're right, it does work. Any ideas why?


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> they're waiting for a new model to emerge that they can buy into. In the meantime they're clinging to the ideal of what marriage used to be and often becoming bitterly disappointed . . . or just not getting married at all.


So what is the wait for? For things to change by themselves? Or by women? Like I said that's not going to happen. The ball is in the men's court and has been there now for decades.



> The urge isn't just strong, it can be overpowering. Testosterone does really whacky things to a dude's head, and the serotonin you get from fulfilling those desires is really quite calming and relaxing. The desire to explore your fantasy life under the influence of testosterone is so potent that potential damage to the relationship is secondary.


In other words, what women go through during menopause, men deal with from the moment puberty hits until pretty much the day they die? Men were taught that hormonal changes rule a woman at the time of menopause so men should be understanding.

Hm. It's a very good analogy, however using it is not going to do men any good. Until their women actually hit menopause.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Again would he be minimising my feelings if I really got off on and felt I "needed" to see him being triple penatrated by three men (one in mouth, two analy) while we had sex. Or perhaps should I be thinking about him and how it would make him feel to have to do this?
> 
> Both people should be putting the needs and feelings of the other person first, that is what makes a great relationship.
> 
> Instead of feeling it's my right to see triple male penatration, I could look at my fiance and spend time focusing on what turns us both on and seek mutual satisfaction. Or would I then be in shackles? Oh noes, fancy having to be respectful of partner and our relationship, how bloody unfair.



And if triple penetration really, _really_ turned him on, would you consider sharing that with him without judging him?


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Syrum said:


> If men really value their relationships over porn and don't have entitlement issues, then they should just give up the porn and focus on how to make their relationship wonderful. Spend that time noticing the wonderful and unique things about their wives, and notice the little things they like, spend time connecting with the women they claim to love. I can assure you if more men did this their sex lives would be out of this world.


But why do you assume that I'm watching porn 24/7. I'd say at most 10-15 minutes a day I play with myself. How in heaven's name does this make me not notice the little intricacies of my girl. If anything, she is the one who is not as open as I am because she never really had someone she could be as open with as with me. I like to talk. Talk about everything, politics, developments in science/tech/medicine, games, music, art and probably as much time is spent on us talking about our relationship. In 10 years she has opened up so much and I can really see she loves me. 

And I asked her about the porn, she says she doesn't care and she likes her own porn as well. Her porn is really stuff I'm not in to, but we do try that kind of stuff as well. I don't know if it is a place to say this, but she was the one to ask me to use a dildo and have both filled at the same time. Why? Because she saw it in porn. Guess what, she liked it. While I propose about 2/3 of the stuff, she proposes the other third them as well.

And then the frequency I propose something with is rare. Maybe once every 4-6 months. And not just from porn. Enough resources on the internet about how to spice up stuff (which we read as well). The moment a woman brings it up, it's enriching the experience. But the moment I see something in porn, it's suddenly me imposing porn values on my wife and she should never even consider this, even if my reasons for doing this are the same as hers? Doesn't seem to make sense 



> The women in porn are asked to participate in ever more degrading and painful porn. The women in porn are for the most part not enjoying it, they are paid to make it look like they are and every increasingly in main stream porn (which is really hard core IMO) women often have pained looks on their faces.
> 
> So what's wrong with it? you are taking **** sex and getting very turned on by it, and trying to introduce that ****ty sex into your own sex life, often measuring sex with your spouse with the awful sex in porn, and begin to see that there is nothing wrong with it. It becomes a norm and obviously as you have proven my point again become completely brainwashed in the process. It is a perfect example of exactly the harm does.


As I said before, I do not do that. From the stuff I proposed, we do 50% regularly because she enjoys them, about 25% once in a while if she wants and 25% turned out to be impossible/complete crap so we scrapped those. I've never made her do anything she didn't want in bed. I've never measured her to porn. If anything, she is at least 1000 times better than porn. But both of us watch. Don't go telling me that she is brainwashed by me to do so. She watches solo and does anything from gay, lesbian, hentai and orgies. Compared to that, my stuff seems tame. The only reason we don't do more of her stuff, is because she sometimes fantasizes about me with another man or have threesomes. I have said, if she ever seriously wants to see it and could find a man to do it. I will try it. I love to enjoy things and if it's nice, I'll go with it. Same as with threesomes, not really my thing (neither FMF and MFM) but if she wanted it, we could try. She knows I mean it. Like I said before, we try most stuff and discuss and can stop it before, during or after, no consequences.



> Yes I would say gay porn is still bad, but ti does not have the wide stream effect that hetro porn has, which is still the most popular form of porn. anything that commodifies people and takes away the connection we are supposed to have during sex and replaces it with junk is harmful.
> 
> Moreover, gay porn (talking about male on male) is about men doing things to men. Hetro porn is about men doing things to women which is a whole different ball game when you look at social equality and past and current treatment of women by some men and that is rampant in the sex industry and the social context of that. Porn is a way of saying women are not valuable as people, they throw away commodities to be used and abused.
> 
> Porn is not harmless.


I really agree about women being degraded. I don't watch most kind of porn. Especially the ones where they degrade the women. Most of the men in those are complete douches. If it were up to me they would all get shot.

There are some men though who respect the women and some production companies who are focussed on the well treatment of the performers. Nica Noelle with her sweetheart and sweet sinner videos, educational videos by Taormino, male performers like James Deen, you can clearly see that the women are being treated well and that there's a connection. Not love, but still one.

So all in all, I'm against the blanket statement that porn's influence is inherently bad. Like most things in life, it can be a good or bad thing depending on people's abilities to use it for advancement or replacement.

P.S. Sometimes I use the word wife, others girlfriend. She is my girlfriend, but we have been together for 10, I just consider her my wife.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Awe, hell...I should have posted this months ago but here goes.
> Young, came from an abusive but wealthy home, worthless and stupid. Thankfully not on drugs just totally lacking in self esteem/worth. Found the closest loser to "love" me and he in order to pay the rent got me into porn. He knew people on the set. The set where two men penetrated me as I cried. Apparently I wasn't cut out for this but I still tried to impress my boyfriend. I did whatever was ordered of me. It was fun....for them. Oral sex for seemingly hours and vaginal sex for a lifetime. It is fun, right? No, it wasn't.
> Porn is harmless after all. It doesn't abuse women in any way.



Did you run the company's references? Did you read the contract? Did you have your agent run their HIV reports through the usual channels? Did you insist on meeting the men and agreeing on the script, positions, and such beforehand? 

Or did you sit idly by while your boyfriend arranged everything, because you were helpless and ignorant and depended upon other people to look out for your welfare when you weren't willing or able to? Did you try to leave the set when things got rough? 

There are plenty of bad, exploitive porn companies out there, and you can find out who has a rep and who doesn't in about ten minutes of phone conversations or thirty seconds of Googling. But that aside, your stance against porn basically says that young women just can't be trusted to make adult decisions on their own.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> that is really awful, but apparantly easy to dismiss as long as men think you liked it and they got their orgasm.
> 
> What happened to you was manipulation and abuse, and men are basing their sex lives from that. That is just terrifying really.
> 
> ...



Or we could be having depressingly _bad_ sex. Which is far more likely, considering surveys done in both sexually liberal and sexually conservative countries. Or women could be having decent sex, but the men not so much. I mean, if we didn't have porn to judge you by, then how would we know if you were really bad in bad? Who would teach us to have all of this "awesome" sex -- and would it actually be awesome for both parties?

And the idea that porn "instructs" us about what turns us on is laughable. Porn consumers are among the most fickle in the universe. We simply will not spend time with stuff that doesn't turn us on, so if we don't like "what porn is telling you turns you on" then you'll leave. 

Because there's a near infinite variety of porn out there, and you'll eventually find the things that _really_ turn you on -- perhaps something you never would have suspected or ever experienced with a single partner. So the "porn tells me what to think is hot" meme just won't hunt. If that was true, then we'd only have to make a couple of hundred movies a year, not thousands in hundreds of different niches.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Of course they care. But it's a pretty easy alternative, compared to the hoops they perceive they have to jump through for having uninspiring sex with their wives. You might not think so, but from the male perspective even what you might think of as casual married sex still requires a lot of effort and energy, and if you want all the bells and whistles, it can be exhausting -- particularly if there's no guaranteed outcome. Most men are up to the challenge at need, of course, but a couple of discouraging days and yeah, whacking off to porn is more desirable than sitting through a half-hour of listening about her day, discussing what her girlfriends/mother/sisters/girlfriends are doing, offering opinions about a whole lot of stuff we just don't give a damn about, feigning interest in her opinions about stuff that we just don't give a damn about, finding some way to relax her enough so that the possibility of sex is even there, and then find some way to charmingly get passed her low self-esteem, convince her that you're being sincere, provide an adequate enough amount of foreplay and a satisfactory main-event, then deal with the emotional fall-out if things didn't go as planned and/or the inevitable cuddles and pillow-talk that we kinda like, but might not be in the mood for.
> 
> In other words, sometimes a man doesn't want the 14 point inspection, he just wants his oil changed.
> 
> ...


Jumping through hoops for mediocre sex? Feigning interest in what she is saying? Not giving a damn about her interest? All you want to do is get off to porn or nail everything that moves.
Why on Earth get married then?! If that isn't the ULTIMATE bait and switch job, I don't know what is. Stay single and leave us women in peace.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> So what is the wait for? For things to change by themselves? Or by women? Like I said that's not going to happen. The ball is in the men's court and has been there now for decades.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If current trends are any indication, they just aren't going to wait that long. 

Men might not wait for women to renegotiate about marriage, because men as a culture have suspicions about the good faith of women, now. We're painfully gun-shy about that sort of thing now -- y'all may have lost your window. And we haven't really been given any compelling reasons, even financially, to do so. 

We might see something arise out of the computer-dating thing, though. It will be interesting to see what kind of social contract will come from people who are perfectly compatible with each other, as opposed to being attracted and fall in love in a more natural way. More than likely it will lead to more transient culture, less children, and fewer local roots, among other issues. But the sexual side of things will be interesting, just because I could see some sort of agreement on the subject being worked out in advance, along with the rest of the check boxes. It will work a lot more like an arranged marriage, I'm guessing.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Jumping through hoops for mediocre sex? Feigning interest in what she is saying? Not giving a damn about her interest? All you want to do is get off to porn or nail everything that moves.
> Why on Earth get married then?! If that isn't the ULTIMATE bait and switch job, I don't know what is. Stay single and leave us women in peace.


(*shrug*)

That's actually what's happening. It's why women in their 30s are freaking out, because there JUST AREN'T ANY DECENT MEN WHO WANT TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS ANYMORE. The "good" ones get taken early by high-status females, 15% can now be free to be gay, and the others are just as happy with fantasy football and world of warcraft and porn as they are the network of social obligations and uncomfortable situations that marriage affords them. And as that generation of single women ages, and more biological alarms go off, we might see some movement towards re-negotiating the social contract . . . but I doubt it.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Ian,
> I 100% disagree with you that the womens movement harmed men or held them back in any way. In the words of the wise and funny Chris Rock "If you guys are loosing....whose winning?"


That depends ENTIRELY on your perspective. I mean, who is more entitled to determine if they've been harmed by it, men or women? From your perspective, there's been no harm. It's all rainbows and unicorns and handholding and long term meaningful relationships, right?

But if you ask guys if they've been harmed by it, you might find a quite different answer. Because men and women have essentially different sexual values. You don't see the harm because you weren't harmed -- and you don't see what happened as "harm" to us because you can't share our perspective on it.

And just because we may not have been "harmed" doesn't mean we aren't pissed off at things, as a gender. We're just in the process of disengaging as a gender. I'm sure that has NOTHING to do with it, though, right? We just don't know what's good for us?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> no that's what you would be saying if you continued to use porn and put it before your relationship.
> 
> I don't have double standards and I know he has things he would prefer me not to do, that I would do if perhaps I was single, but I am not immature enough to try and twist it so he looks like the bad guy. I know it's reasonable. I wouldn't want to hurt him.
> 
> And man you must have a hell of an addiction to porn to need to keep trying to justify your actions this way, it must have huge grip on you if it's so important. that's scary!


There's no more a problem with men being addicted to porn than there is a problem with women being addicted to tampons.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Well I just can't see any other reason why someone would come up with so many strange reasons as to why porn is so acceptable. Why they would be so invested in porn.
> 
> If you aren't addicted then rationally think about why it hurts women and walk away.


Like you're going to do with your addiction to the fashion industry? I mean, you probably wear clothes like EVERY DAY and have more than one pair of shoes. Every thread soaked in blood, tears, and human misery. 

And the reason they're invested in porn is because it makes them feel better about themselves. Something they're not finding elsewhere, perhaps, or some fantasy me time. They find porn acceptable because MEN FIND PORN ACCEPTABLE. We like it. A lot. And it's easy.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> If current trends are any indication, they just aren't going to wait that long.
> 
> Men might not wait for women to renegotiate about marriage, because men as a culture have suspicions about the good faith of women, now. We're painfully gun-shy about that sort of thing now -- y'all may have lost your window. And we haven't really been given any compelling reasons, even financially, to do so.
> 
> We might see something arise out of the computer-dating thing, though. It will be interesting to see what kind of social contract will come from people who are perfectly compatible with each other, as opposed to being attracted and fall in love in a more natural way. More than likely it will lead to more transient culture, less children, and fewer local roots, among other issues. But the sexual side of things will be interesting, just because I could see some sort of agreement on the subject being worked out in advance, along with the rest of the check boxes. It will work a lot more like an arranged marriage, I'm guessing.


Yeah sounds exactly like an arranged marriage. Prior to which everything would be subject to negotiation in a some sort of a sexual prenup, including the concept of non-exclusivity. For both parties. If we assume that "love" is the glue. And it wouldn't be the glue anymore.

Offspring won't be a problem (contraceptives). Finances already can be arranged to be separate. Sex will be widely accessible and acceptably so.

So what would be the glue? Or the point of such a scenario is that there should be no glue? Thus what would be the point of marriage, as in a union?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Reread the thread
> 
> *yawn*
> 
> Porn is bad you know it, you have been bested, move on.


Porn is good, you fear it, you're claiming victory while we're still watching porn, move on.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> (*shrug*)
> 
> That's actually what's happening. It's why women in their 30s are freaking out, because there JUST AREN'T ANY DECENT MEN WHO WANT TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS ANYMORE. The "good" ones get taken early by high-status females, 15% can now be free to be gay, and the others are just as happy with fantasy football and world of warcraft and porn as they are the network of social obligations and uncomfortable situations that marriage affords them. And as that generation of single women ages, and more biological alarms go off, we might see some movement towards re-negotiating the social contract . . . but I doubt it.


Women in their 30's are freaking out? 
And ideal for men is forgoing a partnership in favor of fantasy football, WOW and porn? 
What contract needs to be re-negotiated, it was just fine to begin with! Love, honor and cherish....what needs changing in that? It sounds like men are finding ways to blame women for their extra-curricular actitivies when it is on the men to behave like their marriage is important. Women have been doing that part for years.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Porn is good, you fear it, you're claiming victory while we're still watching porn, move on.


Have your porn then! What's left to discuss?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Ian, you're wrong about one thing. Men are not satisfied to watch porn and play WoW. They have been so conditioned by the two that they are afraid that they can't relate to women at all anymore. They've gone so inward that they no longer can communicate or form a relationship with a woman. It's not that they don't want to, they long to very much. -BUT- A relationship with a woman becomes as illusive to them as becoming a level 100 Dragon.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Porn is good, you fear it, you're claiming victory while we're still watching porn, move on.


My husband does not watch porn or masturbate. You will tell me he is a liar because you have to (no worries heard it all before, snuck in to many showers trying to catch him, scanned hard drives, asked him over and over again) but our sex life is supreme and always has been.

I asked him to come on and try to explain from his perspective as he's a guy so I figured hearing from him would help but he said absolutely not, he has no desire to defend what works for him and that I had no right to believe that what works for us would work for everyone.

Ah, he's so wise.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Ian, you're wrong about one thing. Men are not satisfied to watch porn and play WoW. They have been so conditioned by the two that they are afraid that they can't relate to women at all anymore. They've gone so inward that they no longer can communicate or form a relationship with a woman. It's not that they don't want to, they long to very much. -BUT- A relationship with a woman becomes as illusive to them as becoming a level 100 Dragon.


I'm not arguing that, except to say that we have largely been conditioned by women in this manner. They've torn down our own sense of self-worth and derided our attempts at self-definition for so long that artificial achievement with porn or games seems like a better deal than the frustrating and only occasionally rewarding maelstorm that is a relationship with a woman. 

I admit it. We have performance anxiety and abandonment issues and fear of judgement, as a culture of men. We don't know how to make ourselves heard anymore, because we've been told for so long that it just wasn't okay to be a man and anything we say is subject to criticism and dismissal. We stopped paying attention to the social game playing about 1995, and we never really got back into it. 

Y'all have made it _tough._ And guys are voting with their feet. Four of nine close male friends have found brides overseas. These aren't losers, these are decent guys with good jobs and who own their own homes. But they just don't want to have to endure the whipsaw relationship discussions and utterly confusing, contradictory behavior of American women anymore, so they found women from other cultures who could care less about whether or not they communicate and share their feelings -- they appreciate the fact that they're being provided security and decent treatment. In other words, they're treating the men in their lives as heroic providers, not tedious, contrary bores.

That's not the bad news, though. The bad news is that four of the other dudes have pretty much decided to remain bachelors indefinitely. Only one in the group (besides me) has found an American girl to marry. Meanwhile, same circle of friends, seven unmarried, undated decent women, many of whom are starting to regret their early dismissal of the dudes in the group as they approach middle age. "Regret" as in resort to Craig's List.

So I guess that's what it comes down to. We're communicating that our feelings are hurt, you don't make us feel good about ourselves, and we're just not that interested in playing anymore. Not until there's more in it for us. We don't just want the sex, we want the respect and the admiration and the approval. But for us that's reflected in the sex, so there you go.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> My husband does not watch porn or masturbate. You will tell me he is a liar because you have to (no worries heard it all before, snuck in to many showers trying to catch him, scanned hard drives, asked him over and over again) but our sex life is supreme and always has been.
> 
> I asked him to come on and try to explain from his perspective as he's a guy so I figured hearing from him would help but he said absolutely not, he has no desire to defend what works for him and that I had no right to believe that what works for us would work for everyone.
> 
> Ah, he's so wise.



Indeed. Y'all (and me and my wife) are the exceptions, not the rule. We have found ways to individually negotiate the social marriage contract in the absence of a prevailing system that works. The problem with that is that the exceptions are just that, exceptional. Rank-and-file men and women usually aren't equipped for that sort of thing, and resort to broken old patterns rather than forging new ones. 

And it's also true that not every dude is crazy about porn. Takes all kinds. A friend of mine doesn't like _blowjobs_ -- and I think that's just frackin' insane. But again, your husband is the exception.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

AgentD said:


> My guess is, alot of men want mothers. They want their food made, laundry done, kids taken care, etc, etc. Of course sex too, but when they are no longer interested, they turn to porn but still expect, food to be cooked, errands ran, laundry done etc.


I would almost agree with that.

What other reason would they want to get married?

They have porn!


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Trenton said:


> My husband does not watch porn or masturbate. You will tell me he is a liar because you have to (no worries heard it all before, snuck in to many showers trying to catch him, scanned hard drives, asked him over and over again) but our sex life is supreme and always has been.
> 
> I asked him to come on and try to explain from his perspective as he's a guy so I figured hearing from him would help but he said absolutely not, he has no desire to defend what works for him and that I had no right to believe that what works for us would work for everyone.
> 
> Ah, he's so wise.


Yes, I agree completely. What works for some, doesn't work for others. I really feel this way. If someone would ask me to defend who I am I would ask you to screw yourself, I'm happy with myself.

I just don't agree with the blanket statement saying that porn ****s up men and could/is be detrimental to any relationship, not just ones with problems.

It is true that a group of men have become more shut down and don't know how to talk to women. Just having them stop porn would not stop it. I know a guy, he has a fit body, goes to gym a lot, nice, smart, is an architecture. But because he hasn't dated in so long, he does not know how to talk to women or interact with them outside of just being friendly. 
You kind of need to keep your "skills" sharp as a man, or otherwise you might lose it. Not for nothing that many men who have been in relationships for ages find it difficult to date anyone, even after years.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Have your porn then! What's left to discuss?


Exactly. Abandon the issue. _Which is exactly what's happening all across our country now. _ Instead of trying to understand the masculine point of view, it's so much easier to throw up your hands, claim moral superiority, and give up even the attempt to understand our perspective. 

It's going to take a lot of effort on the part of women to understand male sexuality sufficiently, and I just don't think that they have the patience or the desire, this generation. Men have actually made some decent (though not impressive) inroads to understanding female sexuality, but the reverse isn't true. And even once there is an agreed-upon understanding of male sexuality, as defined by men, it's still going to take a lot of work to turn that understanding into something productive. And I just don't think it's going to happen.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I'm not arguing that, except to say that we have largely been conditioned by women in this manner. They've torn down our own sense of self-worth and derided our attempts at self-definition for so long that artificial achievement with porn or games seems like a better deal than the frustrating and only occasionally rewarding maelstorm that is a relationship with a woman.
> 
> I admit it. We have performance anxiety and abandonment issues and fear of judgement, as a culture of men. We don't know how to make ourselves heard anymore, because we've been told for so long that it just wasn't okay to be a man and anything we say is subject to criticism and dismissal. We stopped paying attention to the social game playing about 1995, and we never really got back into it.
> 
> ...


Some women very well may find that they are happier alone and are also unable to be swayed into compromise when they can have it all without a man. Like their male counterparts, they might dream of a relationship but not be capable of the compromise. Society is heading in a direction where more woman than men have college degrees, it is no longer as taboo to be a single mother, if wanting a child and not married by 35 the woman can go to a sperm bank and become a mom.

It works both ways.

I think it is most fulfilling and beneficial to promote and enjoy relationships between male and females. Again, it's in our best interest.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Kobo said:


> So if you restricting your husbands use of porn hurts him will you allow it in some fashion or are your feelings more important?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And THIS is where the disconnect lies (for me at least).

PORN is not a NEED - the word PORN is not on Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs - it's a WANT.

If it actually HURTS my husband to be denied watching total strangers on the internet f**k the hell out of each other, visit live web cams and chats, then he's got a major problem and doesn't need me.

I find it interesting that you equat the need for PORN to be something that involves feelings.

That's the point - porn has no feelings (for you)...it's not about your feelings at all, it's about SEX - how could your feelings be involved when you are watching total strangers that you've never even met?

And BTW - I'm NOT restricting my husband's use of porn, he's a grown man - I can't make him NOT do anything he wants.

But, when porn replaces ME - then it's a major problem. When you would drather jerk-off to some stranger getting DP'd on the web than actually make love to your wife who is yearning for your affection and love, then YOU have a huge problem.

You're still missing the point.

Porn is not a NEED

Porn is a WANT

Porn, when accepted by both parties - hurts no one (IMO)

Porn, when NOT accept by both parties - hurts someone (your spouse)

Porn is not about YOUR feelings - these are strangers

If your spouse feels degraded, rejected, unloved and undesired by your use of PORN, then why would you keep doing it? Because...the PORN and the ability to jerk off to total strangers is MORE important than your spouse - bottom line - you can justify it with data, studies, biology, testosterone, etc., but if it hurts your spouse (and it doesn't matter why), and you keep doing it...then you just flat out don't care and you have chosen PORN over HER.

That's it! Justify all you want...the bottom line is still the bottom line.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Exactly. Abandon the issue. _Which is exactly what's happening all across our country now. _ Instead of trying to understand the masculine point of view, it's so much easier to throw up your hands, claim moral superiority, and give up even the attempt to understand our perspective.
> 
> It's going to take a lot of effort on the part of women to understand male sexuality sufficiently, and I just don't think that they have the patience or the desire, this generation. Men have actually made some decent (though not impressive) inroads to understanding female sexuality, but the reverse isn't true. And even once there is an agreed-upon understanding of male sexuality, as defined by men, it's still going to take a lot of work to turn that understanding into something productive. And I just don't think it's going to happen.


You, my dear, will get nowhere until you have a full grasp on the female perspective. You think you do but arguing with so many women is a testament that you don't.

What if we get to the point where as a society married couples are the minority and those that are married tend to be white males matched with overseas brides. Women go to banks to have babies and rely on their intimate relationships with other women to fulfill their emotional needs. Physically, the weight of being a sex kitten for 50 years straight is lifted and replaced with whatever the woman can dream up. 

The man? He gets tossed to the curb as soon as his foreign partner gets a taste of the freedom American woman have. She realizes she, too, can attain and maintain it all while not having to deal with a male's selfish and non-stop sexual Buzz.

Will we evolve to no longer need the opposite sex and part ways?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> There's no more a problem with men being addicted to porn than there is a problem with women being addicted to tampons.



Addicted to tampons - you didn't actually write that, did you? 

I'm not addicted to tampons, I can use a pad if necessary, but SOMETHING is necessary.

But PORN is not a NEED, per say - it's a WANT - period!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Exactly. Abandon the issue. _Which is exactly what's happening all across our country now. _ Instead of trying to understand the masculine point of view, it's so much easier to throw up your hands, claim moral superiority, and give up even the attempt to understand our perspective.
> 
> It's going to take a lot of effort on the part of women to understand male sexuality sufficiently, and I just don't think that they have the patience or the desire, this generation. Men have actually made some decent (though not impressive) inroads to understanding female sexuality, but the reverse isn't true. And even once there is an agreed-upon understanding of male sexuality, as defined by men, it's still going to take a lot of work to turn that understanding into something productive. And I just don't think it's going to happen.


Why on earth would a women want to explore male sexuality when as you stated they only want porn, WOW and sexbots? They wouldn't.
Women didn't cause this. Men acting like brooding children and the rise of technology/easy access to it made it possible. If a man were to decide that an actual relationship is important vs. living out somebody elses, then maybe we would get somewhere.
Ian, you honestly make it sound like women just up and stole men's sexuality and that is patently untrue. If anything, men are now MORE in touch. This thread is now up to over 250 posts and during that time you defended your love of porn. Many guys did. What's been taken away from you? Don't men still have a total sense of entitlement?  Look at those who came here and said "Yeah, I'm going to do it no matter what". Nothing has been taken away from you.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Addicted to tampons - you didn't actually write that, did you?
> 
> I'm not addicted to tampons, I can use a pad if necessary, but SOMETHING is necessary.
> 
> But PORN is not a NEED, per say - it's a WANT - period!


Oh I missed that little gem. 

Maybe if the woman was addicted to riding the tampons like it was a large penis till she no longer had any interest in her husband and if the tampon was an actual man's penis...then there would be a similarity...NOPE, wait, almost positive there's no similarity.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> You, my dear, will get nowhere until you have a full grasp on the female perspective. You think you do but arguing with so many women is a testament that you don't.
> 
> What if we get to the point where as a society married couples are the minority and those that are married tend to be white males matched with overseas brides. Women go to banks to have babies and rely on their intimate relationships with other women to fulfill their emotional needs. Physically, the weight of being a sex kitten for 50 years straight is lifted and replaced with whatever the woman can dream up.
> 
> ...


Yes, that is the scare tactic he is using. That and us women being replaced by robots.
Eh, if those are my future reality, I'll just stay happily single.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Porn to tampons?

What's next? Apples to Q-tips?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> I'm not arguing that, except to say that we have largely been conditioned by women in this manner. They've torn down our own sense of self-worth and derided our attempts at self-definition for so long that artificial achievement with porn or games seems like a better deal than the frustrating and only occasionally rewarding maelstorm that is a relationship with a woman.
> 
> I admit it. We have performance anxiety and abandonment issues and fear of judgement, as a culture of men. We don't know how to make ourselves heard anymore, because we've been told for so long that it just wasn't okay to be a man and anything we say is subject to criticism and dismissal. We stopped paying attention to the social game playing about 1995, and we never really got back into it.
> 
> ...


You keep mentioning this "we" as if you speak for the whole gender.

Did I miss the meeting where we gave you this privilege?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

michzz said:


> Did I miss the meeting where we gave you this privilege?


We switched it to Tuesday last week Mich, sorry.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Amplexor said:


> We switched it to Tuesday last week Mich, sorry.


Next time please send me the memo. 

:lol:


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Amp, why didn't the female pariahs get word of this meeting?!
:whip:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Amp, why didn't the female pariahs get word of this meeting?!
> :whip:


Because we are too busy trying to steal men's sexuality.  Meeting, schmeeting, we have more important things to do, like continue to repress men.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Because we are too busy trying to steal men's sexuality.  Meeting, schmeeting, we have more important things to do, like continue to repress men.


I don't know about you but I'm busy building a female bot that seems like she's amazing and life like but then, quickly pulls out a hatchet and hacks away at the penis when you least expect it. 
:smthumbup:


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Trenton said:


> I don't know about you but I'm busy building a female bot that seems like she's amazing and life like but then, quickly pulls out a hatchet and hacks away at the penis when you least expect it.
> :smthumbup:


That would be a Ro-Bobbit!


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> What's been taken away from you? Don't men still have a total sense of entitlement?  Look at those who came here and said "Yeah, I'm going to do it no matter what". Nothing has been taken away from you.


Well, to be honest, I never said I feel entitled to do it. Not even implied or something akin. All I am against is people just saying that porn is undeniably bad. That is all. 

If my girl really told me she didn't want me to look at porn, I would have a discussion with her. For me it would be the same as her saying she doesn't like me drawing/painting (just saying, draw mostly women), gaming or having debates because they make her feel insecure (drawing), promote violence (gaming) or make her feel stupid (debating). If there was no other way, I'd stop it, but if a compromise can be reached, I'll take that.

Ian has touched on some of this, but has said some stuff I don't agree with as well. 
Mostly on the women took stuff away from us guys and such. I think it's more as if women stopped settling for less and men thought... meh... why bother if I don't get any.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> That would be a Ro-Bobbit!


:rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I am dying here guys. I can't stop trying to stiffle my laughs! Trenton and Amp FTW!!!!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I don't know about you but I'm busy building a female bot that seems like she's amazing and life like but then, quickly pulls out a hatchet and hacks away at the penis when you least expect it.
> :smthumbup:


When your watching porn, of course!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Amplexor said:


> That would be a Ro-Bobbit!


Now that's a different kind of Transformer for sure.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> That would be a Ro-Bobbit!


Man, guess I'm missing the knowledge to understand that pun. Care to explain anyone?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> When your watching porn, of course!


Of course Brennan! All my greatest ideas cum while I'm watching porn.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Man, guess I'm missing the knowledge to understand that pun. Care to explain anyone?


This should enlighten you:

John and Lorena Bobbitt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Trenton said:


> This should enlighten you:
> 
> John and Lorena Bobbitt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You know how most of the time jokes suck if someone explains them? Well, not at all the case here. Just reading the first sentence made me laugh out loud XD


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Draguna said:


> You know how most of the time jokes suck if someone explains them? Well, not at all the case here. Just reading the first sentence made me laugh out loud XD


Yes, Amp does deserve the Golden Globe of jokes for that one. It was that perfect. hahaha


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Porn to tampons?
> 
> What's next? Apples to Q-tips?


:rofl:


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Man, guess I'm missing the knowledge to understand that pun. Care to explain anyone?


You've got to be young!

I was old enough to remember this ALL OVER the news - some wife actually had the balls to do something that we've probably all thought about at one time or another.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> You've got to be young!
> 
> I was old enough to remember this ALL OVER the news - some wife actually had the balls to do something that we've probably all thought about at one time or another.


It says he is from the Netherlands. Probably not pop culture over there. If that happened over there, I doubt it would be front page here.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> You've got to be young!
> 
> I was old enough to remember this ALL OVER the news - some wife actually had the balls to do something that we've probably all thought about at one time or another.


It helps if you're from the U.S. too or did that scandal go worldwide? I think it was so long ago it was actually before the internet boom.

The added dose of irony is that he went on to be a porn star. I mean...can we even make this stuff up?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> It says he is from the Netherlands. Probably not pop culture over there. If that happened over there, I doubt it would be front page here.


Wow, we might share a brain.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Trenton said:


> The added dose of irony is that he went on to be a porn star. I mean...can we even make this stuff up?


HTG, his first movie was called "John Wayne Bobbit, Uncut"


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> HTG, his first movie was called "John Wayne Bobbit, Uncut"


His co-star should have been Trenton's soon to be released robot.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Brennan said:


> His co-star should have been Trenton's soon to be released robot.


What parts would be left on the editing room floor??


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Hahahahaha


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> What parts would be left on the editing room floor??


His dignity.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> It says he is from the Netherlands. Probably not pop culture over there. If that happened over there, I doubt it would be front page here.


Okay - I didn't even notice that - but I remember it being all over the national news, etc. Couldn't have missed it regardless of where you lived, unless you were young and didn't watch the news - too bad it didn't happen now - it would have gone viral on the internet.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

...and your men still watched porn today. Hey Ladies :toast: its Friday


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Kobo said:


> ...and your men still watched porn today. Hey Ladies :toast: its Friday


Not mine Mr. Kobo, but your wife most likely used tampons in the last 30 days! Take that!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> ...and your men still watched porn today. Hey Ladies :toast: its Friday


So go watch more of it then. It is Friday after all. 

I'm going out with hubby tonight. He's getting laid. Porn ain't needed.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

We need to start a "Things I did to the husband over the weekend" thread in the ladies lounge.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Not mine Mr. Kobo, but your wife most likely used tampons in the last 30 days! Take that!


Well damn that chick. Got to set my boundaries and make them clear because the size of tampons scares the bejezzus out of me.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Kobo said:


> Well damn that chick. Got to set my boundaries and make them clear because the size of tampons scares the bejezzus out of me.


:rofl:


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> So go watch more of it then. It is Friday after all.
> 
> I'm going out with hubby tonight. He's getting laid. Porn ain't needed.



None today. Have fun. I could share some notes from when I got laid on Wednesday if you want. I know, I know... It's amazing that I can fit her in with my addiction to porn and all.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Kobo said:


> None today. Have fun. I could share some notes from when I got laid on Wednesday if you want. I know, I know... It's amazing that I can fit her in with my addiction to porn and all.


-Or- is it amazing that you still fit in with her addiction to tampons and all?...


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> None today. Have fun. I could share some notes from when I got laid on Wednesday if you want. I know, I know... It's amazing that I can fit her in with my addiction to porn and all.


Lordy, nobody said you were addicted. My position has been that it hurts a relationship if you look at porn and your spouse is unhappy about it. If yours is okay, then rock on. I know plenty of people who look at porn and their spouses have no problem with that. I am not referring to those couples. I was and have been referring to the couples were one spouse is hurt, feels rejected, etc. I think those would be valid reasons not to look at porn....the potential harm to your partner.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> -Or- is it amazing that you still fit in with her addiction to tampons and all?...


Never thought about it like that. &^$*


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Lordy, nobody said you were addicted. My position has been that it hurts a relationship if you look at porn and your spouse is unhappy about it. If yours is okay, then rock on. I know plenty of people who look at porn and their spouses have no problem with that. I am not referring to those couples. I was and have been referring to the couples were one spouse is hurt, feels rejected, etc. I think those would be valid reasons not to look at porn....the potential harm to your partner.


Someone said my position means I'm addicted to porn. I'm not even trying to argue with you. Just trying to say happy Friday.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Kobo said:


> ...and your men still watched porn today. Hey Ladies :toast: its Friday


Actually, my man, at this moment is golfing and he is also taking me out to dinner tonight - so no porn at this moment (unless they have it at the golf course).


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Actually, my man, at this moment is golfing and he is also taking me out to dinner tonight - so no porn at this moment (unless they have it at the golf course).


Golf trumps porn everytime for a lot of men


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> You've got to be young!
> 
> I was old enough to remember this ALL OVER the news - some wife actually had the balls to do something that we've probably all thought about at one time or another.


Just turned 25. Was 7 at the time, only 3 years in the Netherlands back then. So yeah, would not have cared for the news, would not have understood and my Dutch kinda sucked back then.

And for all posts after this. SO MUCH PUNS :smthumbup:


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> Four of nine close male friends have found brides overseas. These aren't losers, these are decent guys with good jobs and who own their own homes. But they just don't want to have to endure the whipsaw relationship discussions and utterly confusing, contradictory behavior of American women anymore, so they found *women from other cultures who could care less about whether or not they communicate and share their feelings* -- they appreciate the fact that they're being provided security and decent treatment. In other words, they're treating the men in their lives as heroic providers, not tedious, contrary bores.


Yhm. No. What you describe there, that's not a 21st century woman from anywhere (unless we are talking Saudi women ). 

The difference between American women and foreign women (or actually between any woman A and any woman B) lies in the individual levels these women would deem a man's willingness to communicate and share his feelings to be adequate/sufficient.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Kobo said:


> Golf trumps porn everytime for a lot of men


Yeah it does - why do you think I'm trying to get him back into it?

Before his TBI, he was a golf nut - 0 handicap, scratch golfer - was working on qualifying for the senior tour.

Now--can barely make 9 holes - sad.

But, trying to get him back out there - less depression, less time on the computer - I'm not stoopid, ya know.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Just turned 25. Was 7 at the time, only 3 years in the Netherlands back then. So yeah, would not have cared for the news, would not have understood and my Dutch kinda sucked back then.
> 
> And for all posts after this. SO MUCH PUNS :smthumbup:


That explains it...


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Just turned 25. Was 7 at the time, only 3 years in the Netherlands back then. So yeah, would not have cared for the news, would not have understood and my Dutch kinda sucked back then.
> 
> And for all posts after this. SO MUCH PUNS :smthumbup:


Yeah, it's actually gotten pretty entertaining to say the least. 
Look, I like Ian and he made some very good points. I just don't agree with his wide held belief but we had a rousing discussion, learned that Trenton is building a knife wielding robot and you learned about one of the most unfortunate men, ever.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> HTG, his first movie was called "John Wayne Bobbit, Uncut"


Let's not forget the "Frankenpenis" movie. 

_In Frankenpenis, Bobbitt played a character who was made with spare parts (like the monster in Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley's "Frankenstein") and whose penis inexplicably comes off during a rousing session of intercourse. Bobbitt then moans, "Oh no, not again". _

:rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Let's not forget the "Frankenpenis" movie.
> 
> _In Frankenpenis, Bobbitt played a character who was made with spare parts (like the monster in Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley's "Frankenstein") and whose penis inexplicably comes off during a rousing session of intercourse. Bobbitt then moans, "Oh no, not again". _
> 
> :rofl:


Holy sheete. Really? Was Trenton's robot anywhere near him?


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

YouTube - Yesterday (The John Wayne Bobbitt Song) - Nuclear Fish

   

Loads of parodies 

♫ In the bedroom, the quiet bedroom, John Bobbitt sleeps toniiiiiight; in the kitchen, the mighty kitchen, Lorena sharpens her knife, a weiney wack a weiney wack... ♫


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Yeah it does - why do you think I'm trying to get him back into it?
> 
> Before his TBI, he was a golf nut - 0 handicap, scratch golfer - was working on qualifying for the senior tour.
> 
> ...


A little return to "normalcy" can only help. As bad as I am 9 holes takes all day.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> A little return to "normalcy" can only help. As bad as I am 9 holes takes all day.


You still talking about golf?


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

I cannot believe he became a porn star. WTH. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

Oh, and the songs on youtube are fun


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Draguna said:


> I cannot believe he became a porn star. WTH. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
> 
> Oh, and the songs on youtube are fun


I don't condone violence in any way and what she did is disgusting. According to her though, he came home drunk and raped her and she is an abusive survivor from childhood. She snapped.

The amusing part is just the media coverage of this. "Penis tossed in woods", "Exhaustive search ongoing", "Penis found". "Penis packed in ice on way to hospital", "Penis reattached in delicate operation", "divorce petition filed", "Porn star". 

The word "Bobbitt" actually became a verb about a year later. As in "I'm going to go all Bobbitt on you if you keep flirting with your ex-girlfriend".


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Officially the funniest thread I have come across yet HAAAA
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

If I ever meet Ms Bobbit, I will be sure to thank her for the endless giggle provided by her act HAAAA She gave women all over the world just a little more power in life


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

woodstock said:


> Officially the funniest thread I have come across yet HAAAA
> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


What part?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

woodstock said:


> If I ever meet Ms Bobbit, I will be sure to thank her for the endless giggle provided by her act HAAAA She gave women all over the world just a little more power in life


Eh, I wouldn't say that. It was awful what she did and frankly this wouldn't have been funny to anybody if it had been a woman and say a breast. The media wouldn't have turned her in to the butt of nightly standup. 
Not sure why he became a laughing stock of sorts. I can only assume that it was because of his aggression and she finally got him back the ultimate way.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> And if triple penetration really, _really_ turned him on, would you consider sharing that with him without judging him?


*facepalm* I think you entirely miss the point.


IanIronwood said:


> No. What I'm saying is that looking at porn is one of the ways in which men express and explore their sexuality, so that they may be equipped to be in and stay in a real relationship. I consider it a natural part of their sexuality. And a woman who insisted that her husband didn't view porn and focus instead all of his erotic attention on her, exclusively, may find some of the sparkle leave the relationship, eventually. You still don't understand just how important that sort of thing is to a healthy male sexuality.


How did people do this before the internet and home DVD's?

How can it be natural when it is man made and producers themselves admit they just keep going further and further with it, even though it's degrading and unrealistic and painful etc. They create the market for it. It does not naturally occur. 

healthy male sexuality and porn are an oxy moron. The fact that you keep saying that doesn't make it true.

please provide evidence that it makes men healthier?





> Not JUST for that. But it also follows by the same token that men are there to provide security and resources ("money" and "status") for women. I'm as appalled by the one as the other, aren't you?


I never said they were, I currently earn more than my fiance.





> Men are ALWAYS blamed for it. I feel your pain.
> 
> And again, you're going to be just as appalled by the degradation of men? And how the female-dominated fashion industry degrades human beings of both genders?


If you want to look at the poverty the world over and you will see that women do 75% of the worlds work and only own 1% of the means of production. Women work hard, are exploited and if you want to look at abuse stats etc you will see that women have it worse in many areas, so the degradation of men does not compare, but the degradation of any one is awful, who said i approved of it?

I don't read fashion magazines, I don't watch much mainstream television, and I don't spend a a lot of money on clothing, i buy what I like and I try as hard as I can to avoid big companies that exploit workers where ever possible, because I don't want to aid in profiting greedy corporations. 






> I still haven't seen anything that convinces me that the media is to blame for the fact that men like looking at porn. Guys looked at porn long before there was a media.


Porn is media. Any thing we view is a form of media.:scratchhead:




IanIronwood said:


> Did you run the company's references? Did you read the contract? Did you have your agent run their HIV reports through the usual channels? Did you insist on meeting the men and agreeing on the script, positions, and such beforehand?
> 
> Or did you sit idly by while your boyfriend arranged everything, because you were helpless and ignorant and depended upon other people to look out for your welfare when you weren't willing or able to? Did you try to leave the set when things got rough?
> 
> There are plenty of bad, exploitive porn companies out there, and you can find out who has a rep and who doesn't in about ten minutes of phone conversations or thirty seconds of Googling. But that aside, your stance against porn basically says that young women just can't be trusted to make adult decisions on their own.


Yes let's blame the individual niave frightened girl. typical of the industry. just because you can exploit someone doesn't mean you should. the onus should not be on the individual to be savy, smart and know everything , because let's face it they wouldn't be there in the first place if they weren't young and niave. The onus should be on society, and society should say it's just not good enough to treat women this way!

And the brain isn't even developed properly untill the age of 25, it is a completely normal behavioural step for teenagers and young adults to take silly risks and do things that may damage them, what used to happen though is that the village (society) used to help them make good decisions and care about , and their well being, and it really does take a village to get people to healthy adult hood. unfortunately now we don't have much of a village any more, just a society where the almighty $ rules, and we don't have empathy for people.


IanIronwood said:


> Or we could be having depressingly _bad_ sex. Which is far more likely, considering surveys done in both sexually liberal and sexually conservative countries. Or women could be having decent sex, but the men not so much. I mean, if we didn't have porn to judge you by, then how would we know if you were really bad in bad? Who would teach us to have all of this "awesome" sex -- and would it actually be awesome for both parties?


If your having depressingly bad sex it's more likely you have been watching too much porn. I have all ready explained this.

That's like me watching a television show on billionairs who buy their wives ridiculous jewelery and take them on european holidays all the time, then saying, well the bars been raised and you are not satisfying my financial needs buddy. Now my life is miserable. I've seen what my life could be like, now meet my unrealistic selfish expectations, Or I could appreciate what I do have, not measure my fiance against unrealistic standards, and enjoy the life we have and make it really great.


> And the idea that porn "instructs" us about what turns us on is laughable. Porn consumers are among the most fickle in the universe. We simply will not spend time with stuff that doesn't turn us on, so if we don't like "what porn is telling you turns you on" then you'll leave.


I will find some quotes from producers on this. where they freely admit to doing exactly what I said and don't give a poo really, because it's all about money, not people.

Oh and still waiting on those sources Mr Ironwood. Also even your user name reeks of insecurity, of someone who has watched too much porn and perhaps measures their own man bits against the unrealistic things they see on the screen. I have read studies about how it does that to men too, so don't worry you are not alone.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Golf trumps porn everytime for a lot of men


Oh good to hear that men can prioritize, now if they take that attitude and apply it to relationships everyone will be happier.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Eh, I wouldn't say that. It was awful what she did and frankly this wouldn't have been funny to anybody if it had been a woman and say a breast. The media wouldn't have turned her in to the butt of nightly standup.
> Not sure why he became a laughing stock of sorts. I can only assume that it was because of his aggression and she finally got him back the ultimate way.


Ok ya, it was harsh and all, but come on.. like was said before, the news announcements alone!! Sorry, I am not exactly PC when it comes to what I am willing to laugh at. With her, we wouldn't have robobbit to laugh at HEHE

This whole thread is ridiculous!!! Tampon addictions, robots giving images of edward scissorhands, WOW, I am still giggling as I go! HAHA


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Syrum said:


> *facepalm* I think you entirely miss the point.
> 
> 
> How did people do this before the internet and home DVD's?
> ...


Here is your gold star, again!
I ignored his post about is being my fault that I experienced this in the first place. Perhaps it was. The reality for me at that time was I was 19, grew up in a wealthy house but rife with physical and emotional abuse, I was told daily I was worthless and my whole identity was about trying to please others so they would love me. Enter a$$hole ex-boyfriend who saw that weakness and exploited it. He hated women and saw me as the perfect target. A woman with virtually no self esteem and would do anything to please others, at the expense of herself. THAT was my reality. Apparently I should have had a lawyer look over my contract, done a Dunn and Bradstreet check on the production house and a background check on the Director. Whoops, my bad.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> Oh good to hear that men can prioritize, now if they take that attitude and apply it to relationships everyone will be happier.


I'm very happy so I guess what you're really saying is guys need prioritize in a way that makes women happy.
Anyway, this porn addict can't wait to get fishing this weekend. I hope my wife approves.</sarcasm>
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Kobo said:


> I'm very happy so I guess what you're really saying is guys need prioritize in a way that makes women happy.
> Anyway, this porn addict can't wait to get fishing this weekend. I hope my wife approves.</sarcasm>
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think you read any of my prior posts, or understand the concepts of both people caring about the others feelings and putting them first. And reasonable and unreasonable requests about that. Fishing is fine, fishing with naked women, probably not so good. Try and keep it in mind.

If guy needs porn to be happy then he's definately not the guy for me. 

Moreover the research I've read shows porn makes men unhappy and dissatisfied. That is why it causes relationship issues, that and it is bringing another person or persons into the bedroom. As the people making porn are real people.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Moreover the research I've read shows porn makes men unhappy and dissatisfied. That is why it causes relationship issues, that and it is bringing another person or persons into the bedroom. As the people making porn are real people.


This is an honest question. Not to flame or troll. Could you point me to any of the research which shows this? Even if only the name. Have a subscription to most of the scientific publications available (through my university) and would love to read them.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Draguna said:


> This is an honest question. Not to flame or troll. Could you point me to any of the research which shows this? Even if only the name. Have a subscription to most of the scientific publications available (through my university) and would love to read them.


I will indeed, gather some of my stuff and post it here.

And here is an interesting article.


> Porn has hijacked sexuality and is destroying men
> Gail Dines
> October 14, 2010
> 
> ...


http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/so...ity-and-is-destroying-men-20101013-16jy4.html


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

http://www.drjudithreisman.com/archives/SlaveMaster_Salvo13.pdf

A peer reviewed piece that talks about how porn drugs and changes the brain (not for the better).


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

And another.



> Pornography, as a visual (mis)representation of sexuality, distorts an individual’s concept of sexual relations by objectifying them, which, in turn, alters both sexual attitudes and behavior. It is a major threat to marriage, to family, to children, and to individual happiness.
> Social scientists, clinical psychologists, and biologists have begun to clarify some of the social and psychological effects of pornography, and neurologists are beginning to delineate the biological mechanisms through which pornography produces its powerful effects on people.
> Pornography’s power to undermine individual and social functioning is powerful and deep.
> • Effect on the Mind: Pornography significantly distorts attitudes and perceptions about the nature of sexual intercourse. Men who habitually look at pornography have a higher tolerance for abnormal sexual behaviors, sexual aggression, promiscuity, and even rape. In addition, men begin to view women and even children as “sex objects,”
> ...


http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF09K57.pdf

Also peer reviewed. Enjoy.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Draguna said:


> This is an honest question. Not to flame or troll. Could you point me to any of the research which shows this? Even if only the name. Have a subscription to most of the scientific publications available (through my university) and would love to read them.


I don't know if this is research per se but in today's Huffington Post, they interviewed the man who started Ashley Madison. Among other things, he stated that the number one reason the male clients sign up is that they are looking for anal sex. He joked that they thought about changing their name to Anal Madison. Why? They saw it in porn and their wives are either in too much pain to complete it or feel it is wrong in some way. So they seek an affair outside of their marriage because they feel they are entitled to this. 
20 years ago, anal sex wasn't even on the radar in porn, much less in homes. Now? Every guy feels it is their right....as they see it in porn all the time. Is this a good thing? So what's next? Double anal and if a wife doesn't do that she is tossed aside? Seriously, porn has made men think that what they see is totally acceptable and is their God given right. It doesn't teach them to be better lovers, it teaches them to be more selfish lovers. I also read on another forum that caters to younger people that the boys/men were STUNNED when they saw a real pair of breasts and were somewhat repulsed because they didn't look like they did in porn. These are 18 year old boys who thought implants were normal. Really? 
Next we take grooming habits of women. It used to be normal to have hair "down there". Now? Most men prefer it not to be. Why? Porn. Women in porn rarely have any hair in that area and men grow up thinking this is normal. Had this line of thinking not been introduced to them, it never would have crossed their minds. Now "hair" in porn is viewed as more of a fetish and not a normal part of a womans body.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

So we are talking about how porn is so bad for men... My question is. are there any studies on it's effects on women? As in, is it as bad for our brains as it is for mens?


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Donald L. Hilton said:


> So here is the question: Is *epinephrine not a drug if the brain makes it* (causing the heart to pound and race), yet is a drug if the same epinephrine is given by a physician?


This, coming from a doctor, is hilarious.



> In pornography addiction, progressively more shocking images are required to stimulate the person.


Not necessarily. It might as well be a case of a need for a wider range of variety.

I don't think anyone is going to deny that if they find something to be pleasant, they will want to repeat the experience. Otherwise, why would we?

I will read more later. I can't focus **very sleepy** :/


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> This, coming from a doctor, is hilarious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree, Reaching. As with any addiction, more and more is needed to fuel that addiction. Take an alcoholic who starts off on a six pack and then needs 12 a night. Porn addiction has the same effect. More graphic, more violent or it doesn't fill the void and the need of the addict.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I respectfully disagree, Reaching. As with any addiction, more and more is needed to fuel that addiction. Take an alcoholic who starts off on a six pack and then needs 12 a night. Porn addiction has the same effect. More graphic, more violent or it doesn't fill the void and the need of the addict.


Sure I agree about the more and more. But "more" doesn't necessarily have to mean "more explicit". It might as well mean just "more". For example, if I don't get the same rush from doggy style sex porn anymore, I will try out some hentai. I don't necessarily have to move on to watching a woman's breasts nailed into a board .


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Syrum said:


> If porn is that much of a want for you that you would risk your relationship for it, and claim it's a huge need, then you have a real problem.


This, really. Maybe if your partner is a perpetual boundary crosser it'd make sense.

One thing that its pretty unhealthy, generally, is the advice that you see floating around here and elsewhere, that you leave someone who won't "respect your boundaries" any time, every time. Maybe, just maybe, it's a stupid boundary to set.

If nothing else I'd think the shame from "I left my wife b/c she was uncomfortable with porn" would be a consideration.



> 20 years ago, anal sex wasn't even on the radar in porn, much less in homes. Now? Every guy feels it is their right....as they see it in porn all the time.


It's in the first edition of the Joy of Sex, the one with the illustrations of the hippie couple wearing floral peasant shirts, and that's about 40 years old now.

I realized when I was responding to this post that I have probably spent far more time reading sex advice, usually pretty salacious stuff (b/c I am ADD and need stimulation) rather than watching porn. I'm sure there are plenty of men out there taking porn as sex advice ("Lube? what r that?") and I feel embarrassed for them and bad for the women they're involved with.

Also I note that there's a thread on prostate massage here, which means it can't just be porn that's altering expectations.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Syrum said:


> And another.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


God, I hate these types of reviews. Especially ones in the anthropology side of things. Provide no information on reliability and you'd have to read all the sources to find anything out about them. I remember once helping my gf read through sources for her paper (she studies Japanese languages and culture) and was amazed at how floaty most of the writers were, drawing conclusions from 1 fact and multiple assumptions.

Now, your article seems interesting, but have a beef with how it presents the stats. Some of the sources suggest things, but they post them as fact. Also did not seem to factor some factors which I have seen in other studies which seem to influence things. Real education about sex (not the abstinence thingy) and it's consequences decrease teen pregnancies and increase use of condoms and other contraceptions. Also didn't seem to include sociological factors which also influence these things.
I would like to know if there is correlation between education, knowledge about the purely biological side of sex and the dangers of the STD's, and porn viewers who don't use protection etc.

Also, about the upbringing/past experiences and how partners look at eachother.

Futhermore, men who cheat, how is their relationship. Is porn the cause or effect? Just like ring/index finger or rate of growth of hair and testosterone. Is it maybe that men who cheat happen to watch more porn. Or is it really men who watch porn tend to cheat more.

I'm not saying this study did not bring valid points, as it did. Just that other factors also influence these things. 

Now for my speculation. Parents nowadays seem way to easy with their children. Protect them from everything that will bring them harm, but also don't limit them on what they are doing. And it seems that in most countries (e.g. US) parents really don't want to talk about the birds and the bees. They also don't teach their children about relationships and such. So in a world where sex is more and more prevalent, not just in porn, not telling a child doesn't teach him or her inhibitions about it.

To be honest, my mom only once talked to me about these stuff. She asked me if I knew how to have sex, and the dangers and such. This was when I was 13. Always been curious, reading encyclopedia's etc, so I knew most of the stuff before a shallow talk as she saw I knew about this stuff.
But she also taught me respect. Value other people. Do onto others as you would do anyone you love, as you want, as they want. I grew up admiring women. As such, even in porn.

So back to my point. I think that upbringing, preparedness, sexual education and such can counter the influence of porn. It is a shame there was no mention of such things in this study, except in the conclusion saying that it could help.

Furthermore, other research shows that, while there may may not be a correlation, sexual violence has decreased with 80something percent in a few decades. Porn consumption I believe has increased. The article does state a lot about less sympathy for porn victims (sources noted seemed credible, did not check well), but forgot to note that there has been a decrease in rapes.

I see credibility with their statement that porn decreases sensitivity and some other points. Have proof even, a friend who watches stuff I'd say "Bleh!" to, but calls what I watch boring.

But on other parts, that review seems biased. From calling all kinds of sex perversions (if they are or not is not so much up to them, could have named them out of the norm) to not stating things which could counter their point, which even I, who do not read these studies often, have encountered.

To be clear, only reflecting on the quality and reliability of the article. Some things seem not well researched, article sounds biased and would love to see a follow up with a more comprehensive study. This seems more as if it's founded by an anti porn group.

For my personal views, I think you see it permeate in here. Agree with some, disagree with others. Especially whole STD/Marriage thing

OOH, completely forgot to say I appreciate it. It is always interesting to read journals. I really didn't ask so I could bash. I just wanted to give my opinions on the paper. As I said, haven't read all sources, but will check out most. Helps me develop my analytical skills while learning stuff I'm interested in.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> 20 years ago, anal sex wasn't even on the radar in porn, much less in homes. Now? Every guy feels it is their right....as they see it in porn all the time.


As much as I am personally against anal sex, I have to say this. Porn didn't "invent" anal sex or even introduce it to straight people. Vatsyayana wrote about it in the Kama Sutra, way back when. BTW weirdly Vatsyayana was against oral sex. Still he provided instruction to women on how to, ah, as he called it, "suck the mango"  (I suppose to him it also tasted sweet :rofl


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I am not against anal sex and actually enjoy it but it took a lot of trust and trying. I really wanted to. There was something about the idea of it that turned me on. It takes lube and patience and then wow, it can be amazing.

So the question is not whether porn invented oral sex, it's why porn is such a bad representation about what sex is, including anal, vaginal and oral sex. It's certainly not bleached, hairless bumholes and slamming it in from the get go and voila the woman is in heaven. If you have young men getting the bulk of their real sex expectations from porn, you've got a real problem because the perception and expectation is false.

To me, this is just a sub heading under the major headings of why it is negative but still a good point.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Trenton said:


> [...]So the question is not whether porn invented oral sex, it's why porn is such a bad representation about what sex is, including anal, vaginal and oral sex. It's certainly not bleached, hairless bumholes and slamming it in from the get go and voila the woman is in heaven. [...]


Heey, cool, I also like it... doing it or receiving 

But this is what I wanted to post. O Ring Orifice - Television Tropes & Idioms
Don't click on any other link in that page, it will ruin your life.


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Lordy, nobody said you were addicted. My position has been that it hurts a relationship if you look at porn and your spouse is unhappy about it. If yours is okay, then rock on. I know plenty of people who look at porn and their spouses have no problem with that. I am not referring to those couples. I was and have been referring to the couples were one spouse is hurt, feels rejected, etc. I think those would be valid reasons not to look at porn....the potential harm to your partner.


Well, no one really seems to answer my question. If the man in a relationship uses porn to fill a void that the woman can fill. (That is not degrading, or hatefull, or painfull or anything like that) What is wrong with that???

Is it not just as selfish for a women to say that they are not going to do something, but then want to keep the man from getting what he wants?? Isnt THAT just as selfish as "watching porn" is supposed to be in the first place??


Overall, I dont think porn is the problem. Its the frequency at which someone chooses to view it. Yes. Watching for several hours a day, every day.....a bit eccessive...but the same could be said about anything just about.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

The biggest thing that bothers me about porn, is how seldom you see any attention paid to the woman's needs and areas. She becomes just a hole or two for a man. I mean when was the last time you even saw a good reach around? Sure you might see her help herself once in a while, but it's rarely about the man giving to her and if it is it take about 1% of the time (OMG how unrealistic is that!!!)


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

woodstock said:


> The biggest thing that bothers me about porn, is how seldom you see any attention paid to the woman's needs and areas. She becomes just a hole or two for a man. I mean when was the last time you even saw a good reach around? Sure you might see her help herself once in a while, but it's rarely about the man giving to her and if it is it take about 1% of the time (OMG how unrealistic is that!!!)


Well, I would venture to say. That 95% or more of porn is more made for entertainment purposes. Its acting. Just like a normal movie. In Ironman, Robert Downy Jr wasnt REALLY flying...it was acting. 

As far as the bad stories or bad things that have happened to current, or past porn stars. I think its kinda harsh to use a few stories to cover an entire type of anything. How many aspiring actors are living in bad conditions and eating hardly any food in the pursuit of their craft? (not an exact comparison, but I think you get my point) There are bad experiences in everything. Nothing is easy, everything requires hard work and sacrifice and the bottom line is, if you want it bad enough you work though it. If you dont, then you stop. Its more per person then an entire whole.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I didn't say porn invented anal sex, did I? I said porn made anal sex mainstream in mens minds and they in turn expect it from their women, regardless if it is pleasurable for her.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> Well, no one really seems to answer my question. If the man in a relationship uses porn to fill a void that the woman can fill. (That is not degrading, or hatefull, or painfull or anything like that) What is wrong with that???
> 
> Is it not just as selfish for a women to say that they are not going to do something, but then want to keep the man from getting what he wants?? Isnt THAT just as selfish as "watching porn" is supposed to be in the first place??
> 
> ...


So what's the void?


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I didn't say porn invented anal sex, did I? I said porn made anal sex mainstream in mens minds and they in turn expect it from their women, regardless if it is pleasurable for her.


Here is my thought on that subject. Yes, I am sure that it can hurt, however there ARE women that enjoy it. So is it wrong for a man, to ask a women to try it? Knowing that the result CAN be a good one for both parties??? I am not talking about pressuring or pushing but asking. Bringing it up.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> Well, I would venture to say. That 95% or more of porn is more made for entertainment purposes. Its acting. Just like a normal movie. In Ironman, Robert Downy Jr wasnt REALLY flying...it was acting.
> 
> As far as the bad stories or bad things that have happened to current, or past porn stars. I think its kinda harsh to use a few stories to cover an entire type of anything. How many aspiring actors are living in bad conditions and eating hardly any food in the pursuit of their craft? (not an exact comparison, but I think you get my point) There are bad experiences in everything. Nothing is easy, everything requires hard work and sacrifice and the bottom line is, if you want it bad enough you work though it. If you dont, then you stop. Its more per person then an entire whole.


I view it for what it is. I was there. Harsh? You bet.


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Brennan said:


> So what's the void?


as I have said before, my wife is a sexual woman. She enjoys sex. Its just that what she sees as sex is in the bed room, before bed with all the lights off. I have even tried simply taking a shower together, thinking it could be romantic. Kissing and massaging...and nope. I have tried to be spontanious and put flower petals on the bed with candles and music for an afternoon romp...and...nope. Yes...there are other things that I am interested in trying that push further, that include roleplaying, making home made videos or pictures, anal(dont start, as I just made a post about this one).

My wife is VERY beautiful and I feel that anyone, even the porn stars take a back seat to her and her looks. She doesnt feel this way thou and doesnt even like me looking at her >.> so the void could be any of quite a few things for me personally. Any kind of visual, or experimenting with new things, or even anything different then in bed....before sleep...with the lights out.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> Here is my thought on that subject. Yes, I am sure that it can hurt, however there ARE women that enjoy it. So is it wrong for a man, to ask a women to try it? Knowing that the result CAN be a good one for both parties??? I am not talking about pressuring or pushing but asking. Bringing it up.


Nothing wrong at all! What I am saying is those who feel all entitled and EXPECT it because of what they see in porn. If done wrong, it can be incredibly painful and torturous. Many men see what they do in porn and act the same way. In porn, anal sex scenes take a lot of prep work but that is not shown on camera. Then you have the double anal scenes. Don't even get me started on when that becomes "mainstream".


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> as I have said before, my wife is a sexual woman. She enjoys sex. Its just that what she sees as sex is in the bed room, before bed with all the lights off. I have even tried simply taking a shower together, thinking it could be romantic. Kissing and massaging...and nope. I have tried to be spontanious and put flower petals on the bed with candles and music for an afternoon romp...and...nope. Yes...there are other things that I am interested in trying that push further, that include roleplaying, making home made videos or pictures, anal(dont start, as I just made a post about this one).
> 
> My wife is VERY beautiful and I feel that anyone, even the porn stars take a back seat to her and her looks. She doesnt feel this way thou and doesnt even like me looking at her >.> so the void could be any of quite a few things for me personally. Any kind of visual, or experimenting with new things, or even anything different then in bed....before sleep...with the lights out.


Errr, is it possible that she is uncomfortable with you looking at porn and therefore feels ashamed of her body?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Drayvius said:


> Well, I would venture to say. That 95% or more of porn is more made for entertainment purposes. Its acting. Just like a normal movie. In Ironman, Robert Downy Jr wasnt REALLY flying...it was acting.
> 
> As far as the bad stories or bad things that have happened to current, or past porn stars. I think its kinda harsh to use a few stories to cover an entire type of anything. How many aspiring actors are living in bad conditions and eating hardly any food in the pursuit of their craft? (not an exact comparison, but I think you get my point) There are bad experiences in everything. Nothing is easy, everything requires hard work and sacrifice and the bottom line is, if you want it bad enough you work though it. If you dont, then you stop. Its more per person then an entire whole.


So that says that there is no entertainment value in a woman being satisfied? Funny, you guys seem to get off on it pretty well when you think we are too. Porn ain't the only place you will find acting. But then if we have to act it for you, then why is not so great on screen? Just wish it taught men more about what to take to bed, such as a good reach around, a little added massage during maybe?


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Nothing wrong at all! What I am saying is those who feel all entitled and EXPECT it because of what they see in porn. If done wrong, it can be incredibly painful and torturous. Many men see what they do in porn and act the same way. In porn, anal sex scenes take a lot of prep work but that is not shown on camera. Then you have the double anal scenes. Don't even get me started on when that becomes "mainstream".


I agree. While I think porn may give me, or other men an idea for something, I do believe that there is a certain amount of research that has to go into things before they are done. I think that one problem comes(and this isnt just limited to anal sex) is that women can be more closed up and shut down sexually. (not trying to generalize, just what I kinda see and have experienced) So it IS hard to talk about it. Because when you DO bring it up and you get shamed or looked at funny for wanting to do other things....it makes it hard to get over. 

Reading this post, what I am seeing, and feeling from my perspective. Is that I should NOT look at porn, because if she knew that it would hurt her feelings, but that I shouldnt be pushing her to do the things that I wanna do. So, in the end the "comprimise" is that I give up something so I am not hurting her, and in turn....I also give up getting something that I would want from her. It seems like in this kind of scenareo I am just giving up the things that I want so that the women is happy....regaurdless of my feelings.


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Errr, is it possible that she is uncomfortable with you looking at porn and therefore feels ashamed of her body?


While I wouldnt say thats impossible. 
1) she dosnt know that I DO look. I am better then most with computers and I am good at covering my tracks. I dont download or save anything. I look, for about 15-30 min at a time IF that. Useually no more then twice a week....so I am about 99.9% sure she doesnt know.
2) I did stop watching for a while. A good long while. And I tried talking to her about things and having a good open dialect to which she shut down and started crying and the even idea of me trying somethign different. Like at a different time of day even.


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

woodstock said:


> So that says that there is no entertainment value in a woman being satisfied? Funny, you guys seem to get off on it pretty well when you think we are too. Porn ain't the only place you will find acting. But then if we have to act it for you, then why is not so great on screen? Just wish it taught men more about what to take to bed, such as a good reach around, a little added massage during maybe?


Ok...well taht didn't go quite the way I have meant it to. By acting I mean....they APPEAR to be satisfied. APPEAR. So as far as watching...and what you see in porn...you SEE a women and by her reaction...she IS being satisfied. Now. If you Disect it....then yes....obviously the whole process has nothing to do with HER being satisfied. I won't argue with that. However, if the end goal of making a porn, is to have a visually apealing video...where sex is shown in whatever niche you are into, where the women is moaning, cursing, or whatever your into. then the goal of porn has been reached. 

I am no expert, but even in the few interviews that Ihave read by porn stars, their sex lives are 100% different from their jobs. They get pleasure from the sex lives and their jobs are just that. a job.

I guess maybe that was what I was trying to say.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> I agree. While I think porn may give me, or other men an idea for something, I do believe that there is a certain amount of research that has to go into things before they are done. I think that one problem comes(and this isnt just limited to anal sex) is that women can be more closed up and shut down sexually. (not trying to generalize, just what I kinda see and have experienced) So it IS hard to talk about it. Because when you DO bring it up and you get shamed or looked at funny for wanting to do other things....it makes it hard to get over.
> 
> Reading this post, what I am seeing, and feeling from my perspective. Is that I should NOT look at porn, because if she knew that it would hurt her feelings, but that I shouldnt be pushing her to do the things that I wanna do. So, in the end the "comprimise" is that I give up something so I am not hurting her, and in turn....I also give up getting something that I would want from her. It seems like in this kind of scenareo I am just giving up the things that I want so that the women is happy....regaurdless of my feelings.


I don't think women are more closed up sexually at all. What I am saying is that what is shown in porn is not real life but alot of men don't realize this. Let me ask you....when did you start wanting anal sex? I am guessing after seeing it in porn.  Lot's of guys now want "the facial" for their women. Why? Porn. Before the advent of any of this most guys didn't wake up one day and think "hey I want her butt or hey I want it in her eye".


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Drayvius said:


> Ok...well taht didn't go quite the way I have meant it to. By acting I mean....they APPEAR to be satisfied. APPEAR. So as far as watching...and what you see in porn...you SEE a women and by her reaction...she IS being satisfied. Now. If you Disect it....then yes....obviously the whole process has nothing to do with HER being satisfied. I won't argue with that. However, if the end goal of making a porn, is to have a visually apealing video...where sex is shown in whatever niche you are into, where the women is moaning, cursing, or whatever your into. then the goal of porn has been reached.
> 
> I am no expert, but even in the few interviews that Ihave read by porn stars, their sex lives are 100% different from their jobs. They get pleasure from the sex lives and their jobs are just that. a job.
> 
> I guess maybe that was what I was trying to say.


Sure they do, I get that, but they can still show men spending more time getting a woman there. People often look to porn to learn something new, but it is always really about the woman pleasing the man either directly or but what she lets him do to her, but rarely does it reflect what a man should do for real for a woman. Seriously, young guys watching this stuff ought to see men giving back now and then in a way that will teach them things like the reach around or what can be done during that really will work in real life. Women are ignored in that area for the most part in porn. Once in a while, but again, it's usually her pleasing herself durning as the man does his thing.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Addicted to tampons - you didn't actually write that, did you?
> 
> I'm not addicted to tampons, I can use a pad if necessary, but SOMETHING is necessary.
> 
> But PORN is not a NEED, per say - it's a WANT - period!


Did he really say, addicted to tampons?" :rofl:

*Pulling up a chair and passing the popcorn!* :lol:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> Ok...well taht didn't go quite the way I have meant it to. By acting I mean....they APPEAR to be satisfied. APPEAR. So as far as watching...and what you see in porn...you SEE a women and by her reaction...she IS being satisfied. Now. If you Disect it....then yes....obviously the whole process has nothing to do with HER being satisfied. I won't argue with that. However, if the end goal of making a porn, is to have a visually apealing video...where sex is shown in whatever niche you are into, where the women is moaning, cursing, or whatever your into. then the goal of porn has been reached.
> 
> I am no expert, but even in the few interviews that Ihave read by porn stars, their sex lives are 100% different from their jobs. They get pleasure from the sex lives and their jobs are just that. a job.
> 
> I guess maybe that was what I was trying to say.


Yes, goal has been reached to make the men watching feel like what is happening on film provides sexual pleasure for the women. I mean how can't it? The woman gives oral sex for 20 minutes, guy spits on his hand or on her *****, rams it in for 15 minutes, pulls out, shoves it in her butt, continues for 10 minutes before pulling out and stuffs it in her mouth. Pulls out again once all clean and cums on her face. Breathtaking and no doubt her orgasm insues. Men grow up on this crap and think is real sex or rather it SHOULD be real sex.


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I don't think women are more closed up sexually at all. What I am saying is that what is shown in porn is not real life but alot of men don't realize this. Let me ask you....when did you start wanting anal sex? I am guessing after seeing it in porn.  Lot's of guys now want "the facial" for their women. Why? Porn. Before the advent of any of this most guys didn't wake up one day and think "hey I want her butt or hey I want it in her eye".


Anal....before porn. I have no problem addmiting that I had heard of it BEFORE I saw it in porn. Yes....I have seen it in porn, and I can fully agree that it does take a lot of preperation and education to do right. As far as the facial....it is a visual rush and thats it. I would in no way say that it would ever be anywhere NEAR a regual thing that would ever be done.

I am not saying that men dont get ideas from porn at all. Just saying that not all of them are neccesarily bad ideas. 

The bottom line is that people have been fantisizing about things forever. Some people may have really innocent fantasies. Some, may have really intense ones. Any not ALL of either of them came from porn. Some, came from the depths of our minds, I think its just bad to try to blame everything on any one thing.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AgentD said:


> Did he really say, addicted to tampons?" :rofl:
> 
> *Pulling up a chair and passing the popcorn!* :lol:


Ahem, he also said watching porn was as biological as a woman having her period. He told all us women to stop our periods and if we cannot, then we should understand why men need porn.
Yeah, ones an actual bodily function and the other is a choice but oh well, he doesn't see that.


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Yes, goal has been reached to make the men watching feel like what is happening on film provides sexual pleasure for the women. I mean how can't it? The woman gives oral sex for 20 minutes, guy spits on his hand or on her *****, rams it in for 15 minutes, pulls out, shoves it in her butt, continues for 10 minutes before pulling out and stuffs it in her mouth. Pulls out again once all clean and cums on her face. Breathtaking and no doubt her orgasm insues. Men grow up on this crap and think is real sex or rather it SHOULD be real sex.


I think that is an extremly broad look at it. I dont think that porn is an exact depiction of what should be done. I think it is a spark that can spark an idea that, in a ideal world, could be taken to your spouse and talk about things with an open mind and figure out how that pertains to real life. 

I am ALL about pleasing my wife in bed. However, she doesnt make it easy as every time I try talking to her she seems to tell me that "there is nothing she wants to try" So doesnt exactly give me much to work with:scratchhead:


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Ahem, he also said watching porn was as biological as a woman having her period. He told all us women to stop our periods and if we cannot, then we should understand why men need porn.
> Yeah, ones an actual bodily function and the other is a choice but oh well, he doesn't see that.


Not to mention one provides enjoyment, one provides, well, dammit it's just a period!!!!! GAWDS!!!! Sometimes the stupidity is not worth trying to figure out. All you can do is scratch your head, point at the idgit and giggle right?


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

woodstock said:


> Sure they do, I get that, but they can still show men spending more time getting a woman there. People often look to porn to learn something new, but it is always really about the woman pleasing the man either directly or but what she lets him do to her, but rarely does it reflect what a man should do for real for a woman. Seriously, young guys watching this stuff ought to see men giving back now and then in a way that will teach them things like the reach around or what can be done during that really will work in real life. Women are ignored in that area for the most part in porn. Once in a while, but again, it's usually her pleasing herself durning as the man does his thing.


Also it depends on what type of porn you watch. There are TONS of videos that show the man going down on the woman. Not near as common, no, but its out there. Again, I wont argue the point of women being pleased in porn, I just think that this blanket is being thrown over ALL men that they see this...and only this out of porn and while I DO believe that there are men that take it WAY to seriously, I think that is no where near the majority of men.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Drayvius said:


> I think that is an extremly broad look at it. I dont think that porn is an exact depiction of what should be done. I think it is a spark that can spark an idea that, in a ideal world, could be taken to your spouse and talk about things with an open mind and figure out how that pertains to real life.
> 
> I am ALL about pleasing my wife in bed. However, she doesnt make it easy as every time I try talking to her she seems to tell me that "there is nothing she wants to try" So doesnt exactly give me much to work with:scratchhead:


Then why not spark the idea of pleasing the woman? And as for the wife, does she really know what is out there to try? I mean not what you want, not what will get the man off, but what is out there to try that will improve HER pleasure? You REALLY gotta look, but the info on the pleasures of sex for us women are out there


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> Anal....before porn. I have no problem addmiting that I had heard of it BEFORE I saw it in porn. Yes....I have seen it in porn, and I can fully agree that it does take a lot of preperation and education to do right. As far as the facial....it is a visual rush and thats it. I would in no way say that it would ever be anywhere NEAR a regual thing that would ever be done.
> 
> I am not saying that men dont get ideas from porn at all. Just saying that not all of them are neccesarily bad ideas.
> 
> The bottom line is that people have been fantisizing about things forever. Some people may have really innocent fantasies. Some, may have really intense ones. Any not ALL of either of them came from porn. Some, came from the depths of our minds, I think its just bad to try to blame everything on any one thing.


I am not blaming it all on porn, what I am suggesting though is that men see certain things in porn, things they wouldn't have thought of themselves and suddenly is becomes a sticking point for them. They become resentful or dare say entitled and then view what they have at home as boring or lacking. It creates problems that didn't need to be there.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

woodstock said:


> Not to mention one provides enjoyment, one provides, well, dammit it's just a period!!!!! GAWDS!!!! Sometimes the stupidity is not worth trying to figure out. All you can do is scratch your head, point at the idgit and giggle right?


Eh, porn to tampons...the same right?
As I mentioned earlier....wouldn't that be the same as apples to Q-Tips?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Drayvius said:


> Also it depends on what type of porn you watch. There are TONS of videos that show the man going down on the woman. Not near as common, no, but its out there. Again, I wont argue the point of women being pleased in porn, I just think that this blanket is being thrown over ALL men that they see this...and only this out of porn and while I DO believe that there are men that take it WAY to seriously, I think that is no where near the majority of men.


Going down is so basic and at the same time, the physics of the act don't offer much on the what to do when you are down there. There are plenty of OH so good things that they COULD show. Why not make it an education. Do you know how hard it is to teach a guy to massage during? Or to accept you pleasing yourself? They get all self conscious cause their insertion isn't enough for an orgasm... Takes time and walking around a few eggshells just cause no one made that a part of their sexual education (ya know, PORN). Was with a guy who was married 18 years, I ya, I hated his ex, but only because in 18 years she taught him absolutely NOTHING!!!!! It was starting off fresh with a kid!! I wanted to smack her, then ask if she even knew what an O was!


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Eh, porn to tampons...the same right?
> As I mentioned earlier....wouldn't that be the same as apples to Q-Tips?


Still think it is more like bananas and q-tips LMAO


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

woodstock said:


> Then why not spark the idea of pleasing the woman? And as for the wife, does she really know what is out there to try? I mean not what you want, not what will get the man off, but what is out there to try that will improve HER pleasure? You REALLY gotta look, but the info on the pleasures of sex for us women are out there


Believe me. When I have tried talking to her in the past about things, I would bring up what I was interested in, kinda in the thought that maybe if she saw that I was interested in trying things, maybe that would get her brain working and she would be able to talk to me, or to do some research....hell...it took me almost a month just to get her into the idea of a sex toy.(nothing insance, just a vibrator)




Brennan said:


> I am not blaming it all on porn, what I am suggesting though is that men see certain things in porn, things they wouldn't have thought of themselves and suddenly is becomes a sticking point for them. They become resentful or dare say entitled and then view what they have at home as boring or lacking. It creates problems that didn't need to be there.


No argument there. I agree with that statement, just so long as it is a statement about "some" men. Not all. While I dont feel I am entitled to any one thing....I do feel like I am entitled to try to explore things and be happy. Unfortunatly my wife has pretty much shut down on that avenue so yes. I turn to porn to at least watch the things that I am interested in.


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

woodstock said:


> Going down is so basic and at the same time, the physics of the act don't offer much on the what to do when you are down there. There are plenty of OH so good things that they COULD show. Why not make it an education. Do you know how hard it is to teach a guy to massage during? Or to accept you pleasing yourself? They get all self conscious cause their insertion isn't enough for an orgasm... Takes time and walking around a few eggshells just cause no one made that a part of their sexual education (ya know, PORN). Was with a guy who was married 18 years, I ya, I hated his ex, but only because in 18 years she taught him absolutely NOTHING!!!!! It was starting off fresh with a kid!! I wanted to smack her, then ask if she even knew what an O was!


Again...I can agree...but even if porn is PART of sexual education....it is in no way ALL of sexual education. 

and I am pretty sure that they do have "Educational" porn out there


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Well Drayvius, gotta ask... does she masturbate? Does she know good orgasm (don't assume she does unless she has mastered it herself, we are all oscar winners in the area). Could it be she really just doesn't understand the pleasure aspect to that extent?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> Also it depends on what type of porn you watch. There are TONS of videos that show the man going down on the woman. Not near as common, no, but its out there. Again, I wont argue the point of women being pleased in porn, I just think that this blanket is being thrown over ALL men that they see this...and only this out of porn and while I DO believe that there are men that take it WAY to seriously, I think that is no where near the majority of men.


Next time you watch porn, check the run time of how long a man goes down on a woman vs. a woman goes down on a man. It's 4x1. Porn is largely designed for men. Period. Guys "need" it and will continue to use it. In return you will continue to have women who feel marginalized, tossed aside and resentful. Everybody benefits!


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Next time you watch porn, check the run time of how long a man goes down on a woman vs. a woman goes down on a man. It's 4x1. Porn is largely designed for men. Period. Guys "need" it and will continue to use it. In return you will continue to have women who feel marginalized, tossed aside and resentful. Everybody benefits!


Not to mention women who are stuck wishing that if they are gonna watch it they might pick up a few helpful tips from it!


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

woodstock said:


> So that says that there is no entertainment value in a woman being satisfied? Funny, you guys seem to get off on it pretty well when you think we are too. Porn ain't the only place you will find acting. But then if we have to act it for you, then why is not so great on screen? Just wish it taught men more about what to take to bed, such as a good reach around, a little added massage during maybe?


So eh, 2 sites I like. BeautifulAgony.com and Ifeelmyself.com. Pretty much up there when it comes to friendly porn. One is just about the expression on the face when orgasming, the other about the female body. For a female who enjoys going down on her man: Camille Crimson. Not plugging btw, just asking what your opinion is on these.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

woodstock said:


> Well Drayvius, gotta ask... does she masturbate? Does she know good orgasm (don't assume she does unless she has mastered it herself, we are all oscar winners in the area). Could it be she really just doesn't understand the pleasure aspect to that extent?


Well, I make sure that she does cum during sex...at least to the best of MY abilities. She is an honest person and so I do believe her when she tells me she doesnt fake them. There have been times when my best just wasnt enough for that particular time. She does cum more often then she doesnt. 

as far as masturbation....I am going to go out on a limb here and say no. Absolutly not. She kinda feels like if she needs it, then I should be there for her....which...I am. The only times I have ever turned her down for it are when I am simply too tired for it.

When I originally talked to her about doing something, we made a few non nude sexy pictures. Well when we did this when we first started talking about it....we were going to do nude pictures and she was going to do some costumes and kinda do a strip tease for me while I was taking pictures.

This was pretty much for my benefit...and I knew that at the time. However I thought that if she saw me getting aroused by her appearnce...that maybe it would help her to open up. Well...before we started....she changed it to non-nude and there really wasnt much dressing up and no strip tease. 

What ended up happening was she felt SOO embarrassed by the pictures, that I deleted them for her so she wouldnt feel like that.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Draguna said:


> So eh, 2 sites I like. BeautifulAgony.com and Ifeelmyself.com. Pretty much up there when it comes to friendly porn. One is just about the expression on the face when orgasming, the other about the female body. For a female who enjoys going down on her man: Camille Crimson. Not plugging btw, just asking what your opinion is on these.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Personally I get off on porn fine, but if I am gonna watch with my man, I don't mind raunchy as long as it gives him something to use on me FOR me. I don't need any instruction for me, I got that down pretty damn good (and told I understand the male anatomy well enough and always willing to learn more). Porn for men, really should include something of instruction. They tend to need more of it. Will admit we are a bit more physically complicated


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Drayvius said:


> Well, I make sure that she does cum during sex...at least to the best of MY abilities. She is an honest person and so I do believe her when she tells me she doesnt fake them. There have been times when my best just wasnt enough for that particular time. She does cum more often then she doesnt.
> 
> as far as masturbation....I am going to go out on a limb here and say no. Absolutly not. She kinda feels like if she needs it, then I should be there for her....which...I am. The only times I have ever turned her down for it are when I am simply too tired for it.
> 
> ...


Well there you have it. She is not in tune with what sex can really offer HER, and sounds like she is more about what sex is giving you (up to her comfort level). IF she learns the self pleasure, she will be more comfortable and more intrigued by what else is out there. I know I did not know what to ask for or what I could explore for myself till I DID explore for myself


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Dary,
You probably aren't the right target audience. I get that your wife is slightly boring in bed and you are trying to spice things up. What I am referring to are men on this forum and in society at large who moan that their wives aren't "letting" them cum in their eyes, or aren't in to water sports or don't think ATM is acceptable. They crow that their sexuality is being repressed because of it. No, no it's not. It's that porn has made them think that this is acceptable and should be a normal part of a healthy sex life. If they don't get it, they feel something is missing when in reality they were happy with what they had, until they saw the alternative. The envelope gets pushed further.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

woodstock said:


> Personally I get off on porn fine, but if I am gonna watch with my man, I don't mind raunchy as long as it gives him something to use on me FOR me. I don't need any instruction for me, I got that down pretty damn good (and told I understand the male anatomy well enough and always willing to learn more). Porn for men, really should include something of instruction. They tend to need more of it. Will admit we are a bit more physically complicated


Yep, these vids are kind of what some men need to see, that's why I referred them. If all you ever see is how women come in porn, you will kiss lots of the smaller things. Basically what those two sites focus on. Small things in a woman's reaction which actually mean a lot. And women are not complicated IMO. The few main sexual parts are the same. The problem is the degree of variance of reaction to stimulation to those and the dozens of other erogenous zones. 

And Brennan, yes, completely agree. With those kind of men, I'm a huge proponent of try it yourself first. You want ATM? Stick something deep up there and try putting it in your mouth. Enjoyed it much?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Ahem, he also said watching porn was as biological as a woman having her period. He told all us women to stop our periods and if we cannot, then we should understand why men need porn.
> Yeah, ones an actual bodily function and the other is a choice but oh well, he doesn't see that.


That is actually scary to think that someone thinks this way. I bet some of these pedo and serial killers out here, whose computers were confiscation and found with tons of all kinds of porn probably see it the same way. In their minds they probably NEEDED it and therefore felt it was their right to act however they saw it.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Yep, these vids are kind of what some men need to see, that's why I referred them. If all you ever see is how women come in porn, you will kiss lots of the smaller things. Basically what those two sites focus on. Small things in a woman's reaction which actually mean a lot. And women are not complicated IMO. The few main sexual parts are the same. The problem is the degree of variance of reaction to stimulation to those and the dozens of other erogenous zones.
> 
> And Brennan, yes, completely agree. With those kind of men, I'm a huge proponent of try it yourself first. You want ATM? Stick something deep up there and try putting it in your mouth. Enjoyed it much?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So because they are educational to a man, it might be good to get him a link? I like that. BUT because they are so mentally trained to be turned on by certain things, not sure it would work as well for the turn on. Still, I am always happy when i can get a break from doing all the teaching. It would be nice to be surprised by him just knowing (it's been a long time since i had that from a man!!! LOL)


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

To those of you who think porn is not harmful, go and read the infidelity board and see a new member posting about how him seeing things in porn lead to him cheating on his wife because he felt entitled to do those things he saw in porn. Harmless, right?


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Brennan said:


> To those of you who think porn is not harmful, go and read the infidelity board and see a new member posting about how him seeing things in porn lead to him cheating on his wife because he felt entitled to do those things he saw in porn. Harmless, right?


I have spent a little time since last night thinking and what I can really come up with is this. And I dont really see how any can argue with this, but well see what happens.

I havnt read that post, however I STILL dont believe that it is porn that is harmfull. Its the person. We can replace the word PORN with almost anything and that sentance can still be true. Can be beer, video games...any OTHER hobby. Period. ANYTHING that someone over indulges in is a bad thing and can cause a problem.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> I have spent a little time since last night thinking and what I can really come up with is this. And I dont really see how any can argue with this, but well see what happens.
> 
> I havnt read that post, however I STILL dont believe that it is porn that is harmfull. Its the person. We can replace the word PORN with almost anything and that sentance can still be true. Can be beer, video games...any OTHER hobby. Period. ANYTHING that someone over indulges in is a bad thing and can cause a problem.


I agree with you on that. I do think however that sexuality is such a strong drive in all of us and porn seems to make alot of men feel like "Hey, she isn't doing that with me" and they then feel that their sex lives are awful when in reality it wasn't. It plants the seed. It did in his case and he took the worst route out. 
The onus is however on the person, not porn.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

[OUOTE] As far as making unreasonable expectations of the women. I can kinda see that, however, if a man has watched porn before, and they see something they wanna try.....whats wrong with trying it?? (again, within reason) I mean if a women watches a romantic movie or something, and sees a nice romantic date, or romantic get-a-way and thinks to herself. That would be so great. Even thou the guy in the movie isnt the guy you are married to. So ultimatly you are setting your man up for failure. Yes, some men will live up to that, a lot will fail to live up to it. But men dont tell women not to watch romantic movies or read novels or anything like that. (generalization I know, but works as far as people I have known and met) We do the best we can to be that man for you.[/QUOTE]

For most women, some level of romance is essential to maintain the desire for their partner. This comparison is so common. 

If understand you: is the equation that if a man satisfies a basic female requirement to maintain desire for her partner by being romantic, she in turn must allow herself to be used as warm holes for him to use to live out porn fantasies? 

Lets see what would the female corollary be. if she satisfies your basic requirements for orgasms and frequent sex in exchange for you working long and hard to make $300,000 a year to give her a luxury lifestyle she sees in magazines.

You should not impose your porn fantasies on her and she should not impose her fantasies of riches on you. You should expect her to accept you for the man you are and not consider you a means to an end like you are a mule working in a gold mine. Likewise, she has the right to expect that you accept the woman she is and not consider her a means to an end, like she is a porn star. 

To think that the need for romance is not needed is equivalent to woman thinking sex is not a need for men. The men who have a problem accepting a women's need for romance should easily understand a woman not accepting a man's need for sex. It is ignorance on the part of both.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

"The Blue Lagoon".

Win - Win


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## MissLayla1986 (Aug 27, 2010)

this perhaps reflects my conservative upbringing, but i've always thought porn was an inherently abhorrent and disgusting phenomenon. i don't see any context in which porn can be innocuous to a marriage, let alone helpful. the people in those videos are surgically enhanced actors who have sex for a living, and they engage in acts that are driven by lust alone, not passion or love. so of course porn doesn't convey a realistic view of what sex should be like. it destroys marriages because it warps expectations and concepts about sexuality.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

MissLayla1986 said:


> this perhaps reflects my conservative upbringing, but i've always thought porn was an inherently abhorrent and disgusting phenomenon. i don't see any context in which porn can be innocuous to a marriage, let alone helpful. the people in those videos are surgically enhanced actors who have sex for a living, and they engage in acts that are driven by lust alone, not passion or love. so of course porn doesn't convey a realistic view of what sex should be like. it destroys marriages because it warps expectations and concepts about sexuality.


Then we get back to the "other" argument...is porn a bad hobby because it knowingly objectifies vulnerable REAL woman to acts they agree to by default without deserving the treatment?...


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Drayvius said:


> I have spent a little time since last night thinking and what I can really come up with is this. And I dont really see how any can argue with this, but well see what happens.
> 
> I havnt read that post, however I STILL dont believe that it is porn that is harmfull. Its the person. We can replace the word PORN with almost anything and that sentance can still be true. Can be beer, video games...any OTHER hobby. Period. ANYTHING that someone over indulges in is a bad thing and can cause a problem.


Not true, as all ready shown earlier in the thread even a small amount of porn does change the way men view sex and women and become aroused. 

Also the little bit of porn is highly likely to contain women who have been taken advantage of , degraded, perhaps raped and violated, and it involves willingly contributing to an industry that hurts women.

Hardly the same as having one beer.

And it's not just that one thread, from I've read in this very short time it's a recurring theme. It's a major problem in many relationships. Because many men refuse to see it as damaging when clearly it is.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Well then if you object to the porn aspect of porn, then take out some sex guides that lay out ways to change, spice up or otherwise improve your sex. It doesn't have to be greasy dirty monkey sex. But if you're not interested in any of that and are happy to "lay back and think of England." then at least be honest about that.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> To those of you who think porn is not harmful, go and read the infidelity board and see a new member posting about how him seeing things in porn lead to him cheating on his wife because he felt entitled to do those things he saw in porn. Harmless, right?


I've not read the thread, but my gut reaction is that porn is not the "cause," but rather the scapegoat.

It's reminiscent to me of young murders/suicides being blamed on role-playing games like Dungeons & Dragons, video games, music, etc. I believe that, in such situations, there's already another, underlying problem. The games, the music, the porn, the tv shows, the movies...those are, at best, related only in that the person committing the act(s) uses those as an excuse for their behavior: "It wasn't MY fault I killed that girl...it was listening to U2's 'Exit.' It wasn't MY fault I cheated...I watched 'Debbie Does Dallas Again,' and just HAD to screw some random woman." Possibly the most notorious case of this is Charles Manson's alleged inspiration by the Beatles' "Helter Skelter.". As the late Sam Kinison said, Manson would've gotten the same "message" from the Monkees.

In many cases, though, I think that even the person involved makes no such connection. But, for example, "D&D Suicide!" makes for a better headline than "Depresses, introverted, socially awkward teen who has many interests which also include role-playing games.". Likewise, "Porn makes people cheat!" is a more dramatic headline than "People who have problems with commitment, watch football, and enjoy music as well as porn are included among cheaters."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

MissLayla1986 said:


> this perhaps reflects my conservative upbringing, but i've always thought porn was an inherently abhorrent and disgusting phenomenon. i don't see any context in which porn can be innocuous to a marriage, let alone helpful. the people in those videos are surgically enhanced actors who have sex for a living, and they engage in acts that are driven by lust alone, not passion or love. so of course porn doesn't convey a realistic view of what sex should be like. it destroys marriages because it warps expectations and concepts about sexuality.


I no more believe that porn is (or is meant to be) indicative of nor setting expectations of "real-life" emotional/sexual relationships than I think "Bones" is indicative of nor setting expectations of forensic anthropology as it relates to solving crimes.

They're all works of fiction.

If they're not, I don't want a mystery illness...with "House" as an indicator, I may ultimately be cured, but I'll bleed out of every orifice first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Grayson said:


> I no more believe that porn is (or is meant to be) indicative of nor setting expectations of "real-life" emotional/sexual relationships than I think "Bones" is indicative of nor setting expectations of forensic anthropology as it relates to solving crimes.
> 
> They're all works of fiction.
> 
> ...


Very well said, finally someone understands!!

I am glad you agree, porn is indeed fiction and as you say is as applicable to real sex as House is to real medical practice. You would not want to be a patient of Dr. House just like I would not like to be subjected to sex acts that are based in fiction. I am glad that you have stated the problem so succinctly. 

The problem is that men do not realize the fiction. To use the your analogy, I would not like to have a relationship with a man whose ideas of a good sex is -how closely a woman's sexual performance approximates the fiction of porn. I would starve to death, figuratively. Starve for my man to see me as a woman with my own unique sexual attributes, impossible to stuff into a fictional porn video. 

It is so refreshing that you can understand so clearly and empathetically.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Very well said, finally someone understands!!
> 
> I am glad you agree, porn is indeed fiction and as you say is as applicable to real sex as House is to real medical practice. You would not want to be a patient of Dr. House just like I would not like to be subjected to sex acts that are based in fiction. I am glad that you have stated the problem so succinctly.
> 
> ...


Quoted for truth! It's great that this guy sees it that way but as you mentioned many do not. Ian even said that what is done in porn should be used in your bedroom and becomes a "teaching tool" on how to make men better lovers. I pointed out to him that most porn is geared towards the mans needs and devalues the womans. If a man were to take what he learns in porn and bring it to the bedroom he would be an incredibly selfish lover and a bad one at that. Many men see things in porn and think it should be standard fare in their sex lives. If you have a partner that is game with that, then go for it! Many don't though and they see things in porn that doesn't occur in their own relationship and start to think their sex lives are terrible because of it. The problem didn't exist until the seed was planted.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> It's great that this guy sees it that way but as you mentioned many do not.


I still don't understand how it is porn's fault. It's like blaming a Superman movie for an adult guy going to the top of a building and jumping off thinking he can fly (because he saw it on TV so it gotta be true).

It's not the movie's fault. Something's faulty with that guy's perception.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> I still don't understand how it is porn's fault. It's like blaming a Superman movie for an adult guy going to the top of a building and jumping off thinking he can fly (because he saw it on TV so it gotta be true).
> 
> It's not the movie's fault. Something's faulty with that guy's perception.


Oh, don't get me wrong....it's the persons character for sure. What I was trying to say is that for many men they view porn and feel a sense of entitlement about what they see being done on film. They then want that in their own lives and if that doesn't happen they get upset and resentful or worse, seek it elsewhere. Many cannot separate fantasy from reality and are not strong enough to understand that 3 somes or double penetration is not their God given right and not standard fare in most bedrooms. Like I said, a seed gets planted.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong....it's the persons character for sure. What I was trying to say is that for many men they view porn and feel a sense of entitlement about what they see being done on film. They then want that in their own lives and if that doesn't happen they get upset and resentful or worse, seek it elsewhere. Many cannot separate fantasy from reality and are not strong enough to understand that 3 somes or double penetration is not their God given right and not standard fare in most bedrooms. Like I said, a seed gets planted.


That kind of a guy will not be able to keep a real woman then. Sooner or later he will learn that in order to keep her he's gotta change. It's his problem. He may fly on TV, but in RL somebody else holds the strings, so to speak.

It all comes down to boundaries again. And a woman also has to be strong enough to stick to her own guns.

As far as I understand in this thread we've been discussing porn in general terms. Is it harmful in general or isn't it? 

It's a different subject altogether whether I view porn as harmful in my relationship. Boundaries and perceptions differ from person to person. I stay away from speaking up on somebody else's perceptions or boundaries. The only case I see myself jumping in is when I see a woman who feels he watches porn so he isn't attracted to her physically. That his watching porn somehow reflects on her attractiveness and thus on her own perception of herself. Now that is BS. Unfortunately we women are very susceptible to that. 

*YOU* are a goddess. Believe it, live it.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> That kind of a guy will not be able to keep a real woman then. Sooner or later he will learn that in order to keep her he's gotta change. It's his problem. He may fly on TV, but in RL somebody else holds the strings, so to speak.
> 
> It all comes down to boundaries again. And a woman also has to be strong enough to stick to her own guns.
> 
> ...


I think alot of women see themselves as less than if their husband watches porn. As I have stated, we watch amateur porn together but to be real honest, I WOULD feel hurt if he did it alone. I would feel like I wasn't enough and I think alot of women feel this way. Sadly, alot of their spouses don't care continue anyways.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> I still don't understand how it is porn's fault. It's like blaming a Superman movie for an adult guy going to the top of a building and jumping off thinking he can fly (because he saw it on TV so it gotta be true).
> 
> It's not the movie's fault. Something's faulty with that guy's perception.


You are so right. But how many men have donned superman offits and jumped off buildings? Why is the fiction of flying so much less attractive to a man that fictions of porn? Simple, risk- benefit. Flying through the air unaided does not hold a candle to a man's sexual pleasure. The lure of the ultimate - complete pleasure with no outlay of emotions, no need for stupid romance, no asking, no dealing with talking, kissing, her needs for affection, love or orgasms. There is no more irresistible a notion on the planet than getting so much for so little. The problem is that buying the fiction of superman puts one person on the road to ruin, the fool who wants to fly. Buying the fiction of porn requires a man to get someone to give him a lot of something for nothing. The potential fool is not him. 

I understand completely why porn is so addicting and why men go into fits of apoplexy if anyone challenges their right to intoxicate their senses on this fiction. I can well imagine that having uninhibited intense penis worship would appeal to men but I think it is only fair to consider that a worshiper must be found. A new partner in the initial stages of love may seem to worship the penis with a porn class performance in the foggy period of love, but then the eyes open and the worshiper gets a good look at the beloved and balance of the relationship. If one person is living out his porn fantasy and the other is just a tool to that end then of course it will end. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

There is also no bait and switch, just real life, real people, each with expectations reasonable or not. If the expectations are out-sized and have no basis in what one person can reasonably expect of another then they must be adjusted. The dogged defense of porn is in it self a problem, it is the fog of addiction. Right now the brunt of the problem seems to be on woman dealing with chronically sexually disgruntled men, being coerced, begged, badgered to perform. It will come to a head and when it becomes enough of a problem to men then things will move in the right direction. It will take 10 -15 years for men to come out of the fog and recognize that the problems with sexual satisfaction is not the fault of women but their impossible expectations. 

How long did it take before the addictive harmful effects of narcotics to be recognized? Morphine was sold to general public for 100 years before it was controlled. I am certain it had its defenders, just like porn. Thankfully we don't use the support of the addicted to decide what is good for society.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I think alot of women see themselves as less than if their husband watches porn. As I have stated, we watch amateur porn together but to be real honest, I WOULD feel hurt if he did it alone. I would feel like I wasn't enough and I think alot of women feel this way. Sadly, alot of their spouses don't care continue anyways.


I understand. We feel this way about ourselves not only because of porn industry but also because of e.g. fashion industry. We are susceptible to this. However this is not a man's problem. This is our, or a woman's problem. Nothing and no-one should influence how we feel about ourselves. We have to learn to accept and love ourselves and our bodies by ourselves and for ourselves. This is our problem.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> You are so right. But how many men have donned superman offits and jumped off buildings? Why is the fiction of flying so much less attractive to a man that fictions of porn? Simple, risk- benefit. Flying through the air unaided does not hold a candle to a man's sexual pleasure. The lure of the ultimate - complete pleasure with no outlay of emotions, no need for stupid romance, no asking, no dealing with talking, kissing, her needs for affection, love or orgasms. There is no more irresistible a notion on the planet than getting so much for so little. The problem is that buying the fiction of superman puts one person on the road to ruin, the fool who wants to fly. Buying the fiction of porn requires a man to get someone to give him a lot of something for nothing. The potential fool is not him.
> 
> I understand completely why porn is so addicting and why men go into fits of apoplexy if anyone challenges their right to intoxicate their senses on this fiction. I can well imagine that having uninhibited intense penis worship would appeal to men but I think it is only fair to consider that a worshiper must be found. A new partner in the initial stages of love may seem to worship the penis with a porn class performance in the foggy period of love, but then the eyes open and the worshiper gets a good look at the beloved and balance of the relationship. If one person is living out his porn fantasy and the other is just a tool to that end then of course it will end. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
> 
> ...


Catherine,
Your post simply took my breath away. You wrote what would take me hours to formulate. 
On this forum alone is a man who posts about his wife not doing this that and whatever and he keeps pushing the bar or envelope in his expectations. Where did he get this sense of entitlement? Porn. He views what he sees and thinks doing what his wife deems as degrading as standard fare. He is now stuck in an unhappy sex life but that is his problem, not hers. His expectations are ridiculous and yet he doesn't see it that way. Now take this guy and multiply him by millions of men and you see what damage has been done and where does it end?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> I understand. We feel this way about ourselves not only because of porn industry but also because of e.g. fashion industry. We are susceptible to this. However this is not a man's problem. This is our, or a woman's problem. Nothing and no-one should influence how we feel about ourselves. We have to learn to accept and love ourselves and our bodies by ourselves and for ourselves. This is our problem.


I agree with you but will temper that with a few things. Alot of men see women in porn and think their look is the norm. I read on a forum (not here) about an entire generation of boys growing up in to adulthood who when they saw natural breasts were disappointed or dare say disgusted with what they saw. Why? It didn't look like that in porn. So their expectations had been set with what they saw in porn. Next, take the sex acts they see. Anal as standard fare and "facials" as the place to finish. When the women they were with didn't like this, they were vastly disappointed and turned off that she wouldn't do this. So yes, women are harsh on ourselves due to fashion, society at large, etc. but the porn industry not only continues to make women feel they don't measure up looks wise but also sexually wise. It is an impossible standard to keep but one an entire generation grew up expecting or feeling entitled to. How is this beneficial?


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

> But how many men have donned superman offits and jumped off buildings?


I'll tell you why hardly any man would do this. It's because he realizes he will die. Even if he believed as a kid he could do this, years of education at school makes him realize - uh-oh, not a good idea.

Once a man, who up until now thought sex with a real woman would be same as what they show on TV, has his first relationship with a woman, he will quickly realize he'll get none (sex with a woman or the actual woman). Unless his ridiculous expectations change.

Problem with porn is that it is not addictive by itself. What is addictive is the "substances" that are naturally present in one's body, natural increase of which occurs while a person is sexually turned on. So what are we going to do? Force feed men the opposite of viagra? Make the government control male sex drive? LOL


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I agree with you but will temper that with a few things. Alot of men see women in porn and think their look is the norm. I read on a forum (not here) about an entire generation of boys growing up in to adulthood who when they saw natural breasts were disappointed or dare say disgusted with what they saw. Why? It didn't look like that in porn. So their expectations had been set with what they saw in porn. Next, take the sex acts they see. Anal as standard fare and "facials" as the place to finish. When the women they were with didn't like this, they were vastly disappointed and turned off that she wouldn't do this. So yes, women are harsh on ourselves due to fashion, society at large, etc. but the porn industry not only continues to make women feel they don't measure up looks wise but also sexually wise. It is an impossible standard to keep but one an entire generation grew up expecting or feeling entitled to. How is this beneficial?



Yes, I read about it too. It will be those boys' problem. A lot of boys when asked what car they will own when they grow up, will answer "Lamborghini Diablo". Once they grow up and they actually get around to buying a car, it's very rarely going to be what they dreamed about. But they still will want a car. Their expectations will be corrected by life, by their finances, by the counter-expectations of the woman they will want to be with for many other reasons, other than sex. How they will deal with it emotionally or mentally is their problem.

Even if I am pro porn, I don't think porn is beneficial. I just think it's neither beneficial, nor harmful. I think porn by itself is neutral. What can be beneficial or harmful is how we end up using it. It's all on us, not on porn.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Yes, I read about it too. It will be those boys' problem. A lot of boys when asked what car they will own when they grow up, will answer "Lamborghini Diablo". Once they grow up and they actually get around to buying a car, it's very rarely going to be what they dreamed about. But they still will want a car. Their expectations will be corrected by life, by their finances, by the counter-expectations of the woman they will want to be with for many other reasons, other than sex. How they will deal with it emotionally or mentally is their problem.
> 
> Even if I am pro porn, I don't think porn is beneficial. I just think it's neither beneficial, nor harmful. I think porn by itself is neutral. What can be beneficial or harmful is how we end up using it. It's all on us, not on porn.


I agree with you that it is on us. I disagree that expectations will be corrected though. It is now so ingrained in these boys that they will constantly be longing for what they have seen. There are an entire generation of young men now (globally) who think that implants, lack of hair and fake tans are the norm. A generation of young men who think that "great sex" means a woman giving a 20 minute bj, 20 minutes of sex followed by anal sex followed by ejaculating on her face. No attention is given to the woman's sexual needs. I don't see this as a positive.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> A generation of young men who think that "great sex" means a woman giving a 20 minute bj, 20 minutes of sex followed by anal sex followed by ejaculating on her face. No attention is given to the woman's sexual needs. I don't see this as a positive.


I agree with this as something to be taken and enforced in the porn industry. 

Western porn industry still caters exclusively to men. At the time when porn was taboo, that's from whom money was to be made. Now women are much more open to sex. Sex is nowhere near as much taboo as it used to be. Porn industry should realize that there really is money to be made from female customers.

If changing porn movie scripts with increased time devoted to a woman because of the need to "educate" the next man doesn't appeal to the industry, then $ should.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> I agree with this as something to be taken and enforced in the porn industry.
> 
> Western porn industry still caters exclusively to men. At the time when porn was taboo, that's from whom money was to be made. Now women are much more open to sex. Sex is nowhere near as much taboo as it used to be. Porn industry should realize that there really is money to be made from female customers.
> 
> If changing porn movie scripts with increased time devoted to a woman because of the need to "educate" the next man doesn't appeal to the industry, then $ should.


Totally agree but the reality is that it still caters to an almost exclusive male audience, commercial porn that is. I highly doubt that a now 20 year old man would be turned on by watching oral sex performed on a woman by a man. Quite the opposite in fact. He has grown up viewing a woman giving a lengthy bj to a man followed by sex in various positions, anal, another woman, double penetration, atm, double anal, you name it. Would it be logical to think that he would suddenly support the porn industry if they moved it more to a female centered pleasure? No. He is desensitized to her needs. He grew up focusing on his and his alone.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Totally agree but the reality is that it still caters to an almost exclusive male audience, commercial porn that is. I highly doubt that a now 20 year old man would be turned on by watching oral sex performed on a woman by a man. Quite the opposite in fact. He has grown up viewing a woman giving a lengthy bj to a man followed by sex in various positions, anal, another woman, double penetration, atm, double anal, you name it. Would it be logical to think that he would suddenly support the porn industry if they moved it more to a female centered pleasure? No. He is desensitized to her needs. He grew up focusing on his and his alone.


I wonder how many men out there would be actually turned on just by seeing a woman have an orgasm? Not by what is done to her or what she does to herself in order to have an orgasm, but just by the image of her cumming?

Maybe, like Ian said, this would be also the case in this instance:



> Because there's a near infinite variety of porn out there, and you'll eventually find the things that really turn you on -- perhaps something you never would have suspected or ever experienced with a single partner.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> I wonder how many men out there would be actually turned on just by seeing a woman have an orgasm? Not by what is done to her or what she does to herself in order to have an orgasm, but just by the image of her cumming?
> 
> Maybe, like Ian said, this would be also the case in this instance:


True but how many men who repeatedly watch porn actually care about a woman getting off? I would guess very few. I certainly doubt it would become an industry standard. In fact the industry standard now is about pushing it further and further. Look at Bukkake and double anal, double bj's, etc. The industry isn't about the woman's pleasure, it is about how to further degrade a woman and men get off on this and see it as normal in their own lives.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> True but how many men who repeatedly watch porn actually care about a woman getting off? I would guess very few. I certainly doubt it would become an industry standard. In fact the industry standard now is about pushing it further and further. Look at Bukkake and double anal, double bj's, etc. The industry isn't about the woman's pleasure, it is about how to further degrade a woman and men get off on this and see it as normal in their own lives.


I am not wondering whether the next man cares about getting a woman off. I am wondering whether he would be turned on by her getting off. After all a man who watches porn wouldn't really know whether he'd get turned on by a woman's orgasm, if it isn't actually shown there 

A man, who doesn't care about her orgasm, will not work toward his woman orgasming. If it turned him on, he would, wouldn't he? But now how does he know whether it'd turn him on, if western porn movies aren't about women cumming? 

God, I love Japanese porn  Even bukkake is tastefully done there. And even if they say "$lut, b!tch, c\/nt", at least I don't understand the language :rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> I am not wondering whether the next man cares about getting a woman off. I am wondering whether he would be turned on by her getting off. After all a man who watches porn wouldn't really know whether he'd get turned on by a woman's orgasm, if it isn't actually shown there
> 
> A man, who doesn't care about her orgasm, will not work toward his woman orgasming. If it turned him on, he would, wouldn't he? But now how does he know whether it'd turn him on, if western porn movies aren't about women cumming?
> 
> God, I love Japanese porn  Even bukkake is tastefully done there. And even if they say "$lut, b!tch, c\/nt", at least I don't understand the language :rofl:


Tastefully done? Calling her names? :scratchhead: The whole context disgusts me. It is about shaming a woman and degrading her.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Tastefully done? Calling her names? :scratchhead: The whole context disgusts me. It is about shaming a woman and degrading her.


Have you seen Japanese bondage? Kinbaku?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Have you seen Japanese bondage? Kinbaku?


No, I have not but I have seen bukkake and it is the say the very least degrading to the woman.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Japanese porn, in the context of 1man-1woman sex is much more tasteful than western porn (it's not about just "f*cking"). Also if a movie is 1hr long, more than half is going to be devoted to a woman. And unlike in western porn, many women actually cum in Japanese movies (either that or your average Japanese woman porn star is a top-notch actress).

I am not into group sex, so I avoid group bukkake. However when it comes to one-on-one (and I most enjoy aforementioned kind of porn) there is a certain allure to it. To me at least. Some women would find the idea of being "marked as his" as degrading, some women would find it a turn-on. Again it all depends on one's perceptions and boundaries.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Japanese porn, in the context of 1man-1woman sex is much more tasteful than western porn (it's not about just "f*cking"). Also if a movie is 1hr long, more than half is going to be devoted to a woman. And unlike in western porn, many women actually cum in Japanese movies (either that or your average Japanese woman porn star is a top-notch actress).
> 
> I am not into group sex, so I avoid group bukkake. However when it comes to one-on-one (and I most enjoy aforementioned kind of porn) there is a certain allure to it. To me at least. Some women would find the idea of being "marked as his" as degrading, some women would find it a turn-on. Again it all depends on one's perceptions and boundaries.


Well you like it and that is what matters. Many women do not and having a spouse moan about that they aren't in to water sports or facials because they feel entitled to what they saw in porn isn't going to help their sex lives at all. All I am saying is that porn sets an entitlement seed in men and they feel they deserve these things from the women in their lives be it realistic or not. One guy on the infidelity forum actually stated that the OP who posted about his cheating due to his wife not performing these acts was totally justified in his cheating and he even went further to say he should be mad at HER for his cheating! Come again?


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> One guy on the infidelity forum actually stated that the OP who posted about his cheating due to his wife not performing these acts was totally justified in his cheating and he even went further to say he should be mad at HER for his cheating! Come again?


This is BS!!!!!!


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

How to men feel if the WOMAN is the one getting off to porn alone, and demanding that HE do some of the weird crap that's on there... and maybe be mentally comparing you to the elephantitis boys on film? Ya know in comparison, the average man looks like a crayola marker next to the boys on screen. What happens if WE are watching more than YOU... hmmm (And ya, in the last relationship I was in, I WAS the one more likely to enjoy watching.... he watched utter crap for porn LOL I am also the one more likely to pick up an adult mag at the news stand, often wondering why they aren't)


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> This is BS!!!!!!


Yeah, the hair on my neck stood up reading that part. I have no idea what acts he wanted his wife to do and it doesn't matter, the fact is she was uncomfortable in doing such. That doesn't give him license to cheat but apparently one poster thought it did. ENTITLEMENT.


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

Brennan, just a question. (please, no one flame me as this is a genuin question.)

Is the sense of entitlement you speak of really SO bad??...let me finish before you go off.

Is it more of a sense, that this is the woman I married. I forsake having sex with anyone else. Only sex with this women. Is it then, unrealistic....to think that if I DO see something that I would like to try....that my WIFE, should be at least somewhat open to trying things?? And before you say "well he wouldnt have even thought about something without porn" the bottom line is that SOMEONE somewhere thought about it. So, would THAT person be wrong to have wanted to try that (whatever it is) with his wife??

ALSO. 

In the mid 60's, when the TV show "Star Trek" came out. Bones(the doc) had a scientific little peice of equipment, that allowed him to look inside of a human and see what was wrong. At the time, that kind of Tech didnt exist...but I am willing to be that someone said... "hey, I bet we can do that" and worked, learned and tried until we now have that tech. So, learning something from another source is NOT a bad thing....its what you do with that knowledge. If you just half assed try it, then its stupid. If you take the interest, and do your research and do your study, then it can be a great thing.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Hi Brennan thanks for you kind words. It boast my confidence a great deal so thanks for that. I am glad of this forum not and appreciate the opportunity to express feeling I have never allowed myself to express. As a woman, I feel buffeted by so much negativity in this society. It seems to be getting worse and I fear for the future of men and woman and our ability to be at peace with each other to trust and fall in love. 

The lack of trust has already invaded the sexual realm in long-term relationships. The notion that a marrying a man thinks he gives up so much that he is entitled to have all of his needs met is so strange to me. But it is apparently very common. They feel the what they give up is far more valuable than what a woman gives up so, in balance she owes him something. Little value is placed on what women bring to the relationship. We have the pregnancies, give birth, have the major lifelong responsibility for the children - (men walk away all of the time), we provide for the home. I wonder who is the biggest loser.

All of this counts for noting in the equation. The over-riding most important thing that the man gives up his freedom which he sees as so much more valuable than what a woman gives up. Woman know intuitively that it is not true. Maybe that's why many men lack of appreciation and easily dismiss what they have. In his eyes nothing she can do will make up for the value of his great sacrifice. 

My relationship has improved so much in the last year but I have to admit that sex is still a problem for me. I hide it from my husband but it is still there. Reading some of the things men say on these forums makes me wonder if my husband has these thoughts but is smart enough to hide them. Maybe he thinks that he sacrificed more than i did for this marriage. I wonder how many women feel the way i do - happy on the surface layers but kind of sad deep inside. 

Oh well today is a bad day, had been rainy and dark all weekend and we have not done anything this weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> Brennan, just a question. (please, no one flame me as this is a genuin question.)
> 
> Is the sense of entitlement you speak of really SO bad??...let me finish before you go off.
> 
> ...


I want to stress that I have NO issue with trying new things. The issue I have is if she is not comfortable with it and the man thinks he is entitled to it and thus keeps pursuing it.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I want to stress that I have NO issue with trying new things. The issue I have is if she is not comfortable with it and the man thinks he is entitled to it and thus keeps pursuing it.


:iagree:

She should be open to trying new things. If after considering it/trying it she says "No (more)", it means "No (more)". Period.


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

1) back to what I was saying that the feeling of entitlement, comes from the fact that you married this person. You said "I will only have sex with you" and that trying new things, is not a bad thing and I dont think it is a bad thing to expect your spouse to be there for you, specifically, when you ARE their for your spouse.

and..

2) I honestly have come to the decision that one of the BIGGEST problems with men/women is that women know what they want. They do. They want their men to fall in line and agree 100% with what they say. They do not want their mens opinion....unless it agrees with them. A perfect example.



> Read some of the things men say on these forums and I wonder if my husband has these thoughts but is smart enough to hide them


You dont want to know what he really thinks, because...if he is "smart" enough. He will just lie to you. Guys come on here and say what they believe and are immediatly met with "you are so bad/stupid/macho/selfish....whatever word you want to put in there. 

The bottom line is this. The ONLY way that these kinds of problems will EVER get fixed, is if the MAN gives up what HE wants so that the WOMEN is happy. Cause lets face it, in a relationship....the mans happiness is pretty much bottom on the list of importance. I am sure there are more then a few men that will note that and agree. 

So as a man, you just need to shut up. go to work, come home and make sure your wife is happy at all costs. REgaurdless of what you, as a man, want. Make sure that you always agree with your woman and make sure you dont step out of line. Maybe if your good youll get a little doggy treat or something.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> 1) back to what I was saying that the feeling of entitlement, comes from the fact that you married this person. You said "I will only have sex with you" and that trying new things, is not a bad thing and I dont think it is a bad thing to expect your spouse to be there for you, specifically, when you ARE their for your spouse.
> 
> and..
> 
> ...


Actually, no. That's not the only way to fix it. The other way is much harder. But then if you don't try it, don't complain you are kitty whipped  (a little humor, no offense )

It all depends on what you'd want her to try. There are certain things that may be non-negotiable (for example threesomes). If it's something like BJs that she refuses to do, try figuring out a way to make her feel safe/loved/protected/cherished/whatever she needs, while she does it. As I said, it's hard. Not only you have to figure out what it is she needs, but also how to provide it to her.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> True but how many men who repeatedly watch porn actually care about a woman getting off? I would guess very few. I certainly doubt it would become an industry standard. In fact the industry standard now is about pushing it further and further. Look at Bukkake and double anal, double bj's, etc. The industry isn't about the woman's pleasure, it is about how to further degrade a woman and men get off on this and see it as normal in their own lives.


I watch porn all the time and my fave two sites are about people (mostly women) getting off. If you check the forums on those, it is filled with men who like seeing women come and also filled with men who are not allowed to perform oral on their wives. Ofcourse, lots of women as well. I don't know how much of the population I represents, but damn, the sexiest thing in the world is to see a woman orgasm. 

And there are more and more labels popping up from big name businesses which cater to a growing niche of women legitimately enjoying sex. Remember, the porn industry moves to where the $$ is. They are always one of the first few to adopt new technology and what they produce is in a constant state of flux. Change what the audience wants and the contents will probably change. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> 1) back to what I was saying that the feeling of entitlement, comes from the fact that you married this person. You said "I will only have sex with you" and that trying new things, is not a bad thing and I dont think it is a bad thing to expect your spouse to be there for you, specifically, when you ARE their for your spouse.
> 
> and..
> 
> ...


Wrong. My husband has been open with me about his sexual needs from day one. Never hid it in any way. I am rare, this I know, in that I am very open sexually. He knows what I like and I know what he likes and we both like to be dominated, slightly leaning towards BDSM. Wouldn't really work well if either of us didn't give. So we switch off. He didn't "give up" anything to be with me and neither did I. It's called compromise. The rub is alot of guys don't see it this way. If they don't get THEIR way then they moan and complain about their miserable sex lives. Their way is from what they saw in porn. 
In our case, we explored each other and learned what we like. Hubby didn't get his sexuality from porn, he got it from learning about himself.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Actually, no. That's not the only way to fix it. The other way is much harder. But then if you don't try it, don't complain you are kitty whipped  (a little humor, no offense )
> 
> It all depends on what you'd want her to try. There are certain things that may be non-negotiable (for example threesomes). If it's something like BJs that she refuses to do, try figuring out a way to make her feel safe/loved/protected/cherished/whatever she needs, while she does it. As I said, it's hard. Not only you have to figure out what it is she needs, but also how to provide it to her.


This is absolutely true. I did not like bj to my husband when we first got married. I felt they were degrading and frankly men did not respect woman who did them. 

The sex was great we worked on me because I was the less experienced he cared how I felt. I then felt so happy and love him so much that i wanted to give but did not know how. 

I told him I wanted to do it and we worked on it until I got it right. But if was angry and dissatisfied and tried to make me, it would never have happened. If he started pushing before we had a mutually satisfying sex life it would not have happened because I need to feel comfortable first. 

Then things grow from there. I was inspired because I feel loved by a great guy. The key for me was that we concentrated on


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Hi Brennan thanks for you kind words. It boast my confidence a great deal so thanks for that. I am glad of this forum not and appreciate the opportunity to express feeling I have never allowed myself to express. As a woman, I feel buffeted by so much negativity in this society. It seems to be getting worse and I fear for the future of men and woman and our ability to be at peace with each other to trust and fall in love.
> 
> The lack of trust has already invaded the sexual realm in long-term relationships. The notion that a marrying a man thinks he gives up so much that he is entitled to have all of his needs met is so strange to me. But it is apparently very common. They feel the what they give up is far more valuable than what a woman gives up so, in balance she owes him something. Little value is placed on what women bring to the relationship. We have the pregnancies, give birth, have the major lifelong responsibility for the children - (men walk away all of the time), we provide for the home. I wonder who is the biggest loser.
> 
> ...


Catherine, this is how I feel as well and I'm not having it. I think women under value themselves and what they give up ALL THE TIME and have been doing it since the beginning of time.

I don't buy it at all though. I value myself too much and I value all the women around me, even those that continually under value themselves or disagree with me on this.

I truly believe that you summed up my frustration with this entire hot topic. 

I also read many of the men's posts on these forums and shudder to think that my husband is too smart to be honest with me about it as well. It really creates a trust issue for me and yet I tell myself this is unfair...to judge all men based upon a few men here. I think also that my insecurity comes from knowing that many of the things I do, I do only to please him, but have to be good enough at it so that he thinks I'm enjoying it as much as he is. 

This unspoken lie from so many women's lips is not talked about either, but I believe we all know it and can remember a time that something wasn't necessarily ultra enjoyable but we powered through so that the man could cum. Ironically, since many women won't own up to this or shout it from the roof tops (unlike a man's shameless screaming about how his wife is a prude and won't please him), we work against our own happiness as a gender and raise a man's expectations even more.

I will also say that, like you, I can admit that although I find enjoyment in our love/sex life, there are times I feel as if I give far too much for what I receive in return and this overflows into our every day life. There is something about this basic injustice that irks me.

Why is it that it seems for one to win, one has to lose? It seems at times that men are not on the woman's side at all, and far, far, far worse, women aren't on women's side either.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Catherine, this is how I feel as well and I'm not having it. I think women under value themselves and what they give up ALL THE TIME and have been doing it since the beginning of time.
> 
> I don't buy it at all though. I value myself too much and I value all the women around me, even those that continually under value themselves or disagree with me on this.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it is unfair. But maybe not. While we've been discussing this topic over the last week or so, and I've had a few male supporters chime in in my defense, I've gotten more positive, private messages in support from men (from "God, I wish I had the balls to say that!" to "You know, I never thought of it that way, but you're right!") than y'all would be comfortable with. Like it or not, at least some of what I have said has resonated strongly with many men. 

From a female perspective, that's likely to make you a little nauseated, and I can understand that. You don't want to think that beneath the intelligent, civilized exterior of the men in your life there lies a sex-crazed, egotistical beast who's always going to be dissatisfied with your sexual performance and feeling regrets about trading freedom for marriage. That's a really appalling thing to think about the men you love.

Thing is, it's only appalling if you insist on using an exclusively female perspective of love and marriage and sex, instead of appreciating it from the male point of view. Just like trying to appreciate female sexuality from the male point of view is going to be utterly frustrating and confusing to men (as it is) if they aren't willing to step outside their own narrow perspectives and be open to the differences without judgement or condemnation. Most men, admittedly, don't have that kind of emotional range, and end up aping what they think they should do in a relationship to make a woman happy to conceal what they're thinking. We've been trained to throw up our hands and dismiss that perspective as Unknowable, and it's not. It's just hard. They try to fathom how your emotions and your judgment can be affected that much by your hormones, and how your libido takes so freakin' long to warm up, and it's just a little too complex for the average dude to handle, so instead he buys you flowers and compliments you silly and hopes that the stars are in the right position. 

Women also have been trained to dismiss the intracacies of male sexuality (and its related _accoutremont_) not as being Unknowable, but as Not Worth Knowing. What motivates a man's sexuality has been far less concern (if any) to women than how to attract the interest and attention of men in various ways. When he's moody or sullen or distracted, instead of understanding how that emotion fits within the male sexual cycle and what it means, you dismiss it as him just being a ________ and he'll get over it.

Neither position is helpful in bridging this gap between the genders. With neither side willing to invest in educating themselves about the other, they spin their wheels in warring camps and complain when the machinery breaks down, yet won't take the time to learn how it works in the first place. If there was more mutual understanding and less judgement, I think a lot of this would clear up.




Trenton said:


> This unspoken lie from so many women's lips is not talked about either, but I believe we all know it and can remember a time that something wasn't necessarily ultra enjoyable but we powered through so that the man could cum. Ironically, since many women won't own up to this or shout it from the roof tops (unlike a man's shameless screaming about how his wife is a prude and won't please him), we work against our own happiness as a gender and raise a man's expectations even more.


And what are we supposed to do, if we're unhappy and unsatisfied in a relationship? Believe me, men power through an awful lot in the course of a marriage that they find unpleasant, unsatisfying, tedious, and occasionally dangerous. It might not be sexual in nature, but I've seen men physically and mentally destroy themselves for the benefit of their wives and families and not utter a word of complaint. 

And we know when you're doing that. Don't think that we don't. If you're good at it, and it's an occasional thing, that's one thing -- but if every sexual experience a man has with his wife leads to her gritting her teeth and enduring it, no matter what preparations and thoughtful measures he's taken, then the result is a man who doubts himself at such a basic level that he feels hollow inside. Sure, sure, it doesn't matter -- it's just a dude -- but don't think we don't know. We know. Sometimes we appreciate it, and sometimes we're crippled with guilt over it, and sometimes we might not even initiate for a while because we're so disturbed by the fact that our expression of physical love has not only failed to please you, but has caused you pain. But we do know.



Trenton said:


> I will also say that, like you, I can admit that although I find enjoyment in our love/sex life, there are times I feel as if I give far too much for what I receive in return and this overflows into our every day life. There is something about this basic injustice that irks me.


Believe me, that works both ways.



Trenton said:


> Why is it that it seems for one to win, one has to lose? It seems at times that men are not on the woman's side at all, and far, far, far worse, women aren't on women's side either.


Perhaps. But y'all get closer to being on your side than we do, by a longshot. Men are typically discouraged from forming long-term bonds with other men on our own, whereas women form communities almost automatically. No telling how many men feel that they are utterly alone in this world, the wife that was supposed to be his best friend turning into . . . something else, and no one to talk to about the things that regularly batter our souls. How many women have girlfriends they've had for decades? Most men can count the number of guys he can really talk to on one hand, and our natural inclination when there is a problem is to suffer in silence. 

Yeah, yeah, just dudes bein' dudes, I know. But let me tell you a story.

When I was about 13 in my neighborhood lived an older couple, in their 50s. They seemed about as near perfect a happily married couple as you could ask for, over 30 years together, childhood sweethearts who married out of high school. Two kids, grown and gone. Grandkids in other states. Active in their community, church, etc. Everyone loved this couple, kind of the neighborhood grandparents. They always seemed so happy, even if the husband didn't talk much.

One day my brother and I went over to see if we could borrow some dry gas for the lawnmower, and we found the husband in his shed weeping furiously. He heard us and by the time we got there, he'd recovered, all smiles, and helped us out. But it disturbed us both at a deep level, and we started paying close attention to them out of curiosity. 

A few months pass, and we both noted how he never said anything -- his wife was always talking, he was always agreeing. She had a host of medical conditions that she felt compelled to keep the neighborhood informed of, so she talked a whole lot while he just kind of hung out in the background, good husband that he was.

Then we hear sirens one Sunday afternoon, and head down there to see what the commotion was. We knew one of the deputy sheriffs there, and he was pretty gabby about the shocking event. He wouldn't let us get close, though. Apparently the husband stuck a shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger after leaving behind a bitter, 10 page neatly typed (on a typewriter, no less) note about how his wife's overbearing nature and frigidity had finally led to such a depth of internal despair that he saw no way out of it -- divorce wasn't an option since it would destroy his kids and grandkids, and he felt he had been so ruined by her that no other woman would ever want him. He spent three and half pages speaking bitterly directly to his wife, saying all of the things he never felt he could say in the marriage, including how he resented her imposing nine years of absolute celibacy on him -- dude hadn't gotten laid since 1973. He ended by saying that the only honorable way out was by taking his own life, but he did so gladly rather than face even another day being diminished by his wife. 

Those pages were dripping with the most angry despair I've ever read. It was heartbreaking about how his wife made him feel that it shocked me to my core. His wife was just kind of wandering around in a daze, in shock, while she answered questions, and she even called out to her husband a few times to help her remember -- and then broke down in hysterical sobs when she remembered what had happened. The whole time she kept saying "why didn't he say anything? Why didn't he say anything?" like the man she had married was a complete mystery to her.

I figured that the husband was just mentally ill or clinically depressed or something, even though he always seemed fine. But while the neighbors were standing around, I overheard a couple of the other husbands in the neighborhood nodding grimly and whispering words to the effect that "don't be surprised if they find me like that some day".

Now, it's easy to dismiss that as a fluke, an extreme case of bitterness and despair that probably could have gotten worked out in counseling or with the help of medications, had he spoken up. But in the days that followed while we got ready for the funeral and my Mom helped the widow go through his stuff, it came out that the wife really was mystified, especially about the sex stuff. Being an older southern woman, she was very reluctant to discuss it, but stuff comes out in such times of crisis. 

My mom discovered that the spark that started his march towards the shed and the shotgun began when they had a fight a week earlier, after he'd tried to initiate sex for the first time in two years. She had not only rejected him, but then shamed him for being a man his age who even had those thoughts anymore. She accused him of treating her like a w#ore and of never loving her, and how he'd better thank God how lucky he was to have a woman like her because he was such a sorry excuse for a man that no other woman would look at him twice. She said he'd been moody for a few days, but by the next Monday he seemed to be very upbeat and chipper, and she figured that he was over it and back to his usual docile, helpful, non-sexual self.

Monday was the day he bought the shotgun shells.

Yes, yes, very dramatic. Typical Southern over-the-top tragedy. Not even Springer-worthy. But watching that woman keep looking out of her window automatically to check on her husband doing yard work, then bursting into tears and sobbing when she remembered, that was pretty rough. And word got around. Story was, she was at church (different one than ours) in the fellowship hall when the story came up among her friends, when one of them got fed up and nearly shouted at her, "I envied and coveted your husband for years, you stupid old bat, he was the best man in town and you wasted him! We all knew what was happening -- what kind of p!ss-poor woman can't handle just one man!?"

The wife moved to Florida with her daughter a few months later, and we heard she died about a year and a half after that. We helped clean out their house for the new owners, and I remember my dad taking me back to the shed where he'd killed himself (long cleaned up, by that point), and showing it to me again. "Learn something from this," my dad said, simply.

"Like what?"

"This is what can happen to a man if he doesn't choose his wife wisely. Once you're in, you're in, so make sure it's the right one. And if she isn't . . . don't shut up about it. Mr. _________ didn't say a word until it was too late, and he died in misery. Don't be like that."

It had a powerful effect on me, needless to say. I had no idea at the time that sex was so powerful to a man (although I was starting to suspect) and that marriage was such a complex thing. 

So who had to win and who had to lose? The husband and wife each made choices along the way, and it was clear that her happiness included not having sex after her kids were in high school, because (her words) "A grown woman shouldn't have to put up with that at my age". The husband obviously respected that decision, even if he was emotionally crushed by it. Did he have to lose, then? Because it's looking like a loss from my perspective. 

Sex is a powerful thing. Perhaps one of the most powerful forces we experience. And while it has power for both men and women, they're two different kinds of power, and we deal with it in very different ways. Y'all can look at the way that we view sex as "wrong", "crude", or any other adjective you'd like. But it's how we view it, and whether women think it's wrong or right or crude or whatever, it's the only sexuality we have. We can live by it . . . or we can die by it. But we can't change our essential nature, any more than you can. 

I kind of hope this has at least made you think about the men in your life and wonder if they have stuff that's eating at them like that, stuff that they're terrified you'll find out or they can't bring themselves to talk to you about for fear of judgement and loss of respect. We get good at concealing that sort of thing, and if we're moved enough to bring it up at all you can bet that it's a profound matter to us. We're also good at enduring an unpleasant situation indefinitely for the women we love. But we are human, and we do break, despite our best efforts. Whether or not you find that worthy of respect is up to you, I guess, but please keep it in mind when you're frustrated with the men in your life, because if we don't find respect with y'all . . . well, there are other ways out. Even for honorable men.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

As a man I have to say that porn really does nothing for me. I'm a tactile person. I need to touch and smell and taste.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> I have spent a little time since last night thinking and what I can really come up with is this. And I dont really see how any can argue with this, but well see what happens.
> 
> I havnt read that post, however I STILL dont believe that it is porn that is harmfull. Its the person. We can replace the word PORN with almost anything and that sentance can still be true. Can be beer, video games...any OTHER hobby. Period. ANYTHING that someone over indulges in is a bad thing and can cause a problem.


Can't disagree with that.

But isn't it interesting that you mentioned each and every thing that guys get hung up on that takes time away from their spouse and family - PORN, BEER, VIDEO GAMES - let me add - FISHING, BASEBALL, GOLF, FOOTBALL, anything and everything that will make them feel better about their life because gee whiz, they got married and need to pay attention to someone other than themselves for a change...and that sucks - BIG TIME.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I saw my counselor today and we discussed my husband's porn viewing habit (and yes, it's a habit or addiction as I like to refer to it), and he said yes - that frequent and continuous viewing of porn CAN and DOES de-sensitive men to the real-life women in their lives and can cause them to pull away, because the fantasy sex life is more exciting (to their mind), than the real-life sex life.

He (notice I said he - he is a man counselor), also said that men can get hooked on fetishes that they view when into porn and the fetish will override anything and everything they could possible do with their spouses, so the need to get a "fix" for the fetish can outweigh any real relationship in-person.

He doesn't take the stance that it's a "need" for men and that it is not harmful to the women in their lives - just the opposite - he said while it can be helpful to open up spouses on their shared sexuality, without the issue being "shared", spoke about and agreed upon, it can cause great harm to the trust in a relationship.

He has been a psychologist and former sex therapist for more than 25 years.

So there - a second opinion from someone WHO also knows what he's talking about and who is a man and also married too!

Now I feel better....LOL


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I think alot of women see themselves as less than if their husband watches porn. As I have stated, we watch amateur porn together but to be real honest, I WOULD feel hurt if he did it alone. I would feel like I wasn't enough and I think alot of women feel this way. Sadly, alot of their spouses don't care continue anyways.


EXACTLY!

I never had a problem with self-esteem and confidence until I discovered my husband's porn addiction.

It made me feel old, undesirable, unattractive, unloved because at the age of 50 I couldn't possibly ever compete without about $1M in plastic surgery.

So how was I supposed to deal with that? I'll tell you how - I almost went crazy, self-esteem plummeted, quit eating, sleeping, ended up in counseling and on medication - all because of HIS porn habit.

Harmless to your spouse...naw, I wouldn't say it was harmless to me.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> No, I have not but I have seen bukkake and it is the say the very least degrading to the woman.


I was stationed in Japan for 4 years.

You think the porn we have access to on the internet is weird - you have to see what you can actually see/get while in-country.

Strange...indeed. They put a whole new spin on the word PORN.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> When I was about 13 in my neighborhood lived an older couple, in their 50s. They seemed about as near perfect a happily married couple as you could ask for, over 30 years together, childhood sweethearts who married out of high school. Two kids, grown and gone. Grandkids in other states. Active in their community, church, etc. Everyone loved this couple, kind of the neighborhood grandparents. They always seemed so happy, even if the husband didn't talk much.
> 
> One day my brother and I went over to see if we could borrow some dry gas for the lawnmower, and we found the husband in his shed weeping furiously. He heard us and by the time we got there, he'd recovered, all smiles, and helped us out. But it disturbed us both at a deep level, and we started paying close attention to them out of curiosity.
> 
> ...


A powerful and sad story.

Too bad that the wife was not comfortable enough in her own sexuality and shut down.

Too bad that the husband did not stand up for himself and let her know how he really felt or left to find someone who did understand.

And too bad that the only way he saw out was through death - when it really is now way out - it's final - you can't have do-overs here.

I don't think that anyone here has said that sex is not important and not a vital part of a relationship, marriage included. I think it's extremely important - between ME and MY HUSBAND, not Tom, ****, Harry, and who knows else on the internet.

What we're saying, at least me, from a woman's standpoint is - don't throw me away, when I'm here, ready, able and willing to do what you need to spend that time and effort on a bunch of strangers on the internet.

Will those strangers be around when my husband becomes wheelchair bound? Will they be changing his diapers, if and when they're necessary? Do they all 911 when he has a seizure? Do they make sure he takes his meds and goes to his weekly therapy sessions? Do they take care of him when he's sick?

HELL NO - I do.

For that alone, I deserve his attention and affection. But no, Lola's Tubes, livejasmin, and lonelwives.com and many others get that time and affection.

Tell you what - I'm calling them when I need some help taking care of him - they seem to know him as well as I do these days!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

IanIronWood, you give such Tremenously MOVING stories on here. I have been missing this entire thread, but just caught this story you gave about the old man & frigid wife. 

I am one woman on here that mostly agrees with the things you say!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

to bad internet porn wsn't around he might still be alive.

if it just saves one life its worth it.


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## Sennik (Feb 15, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> [OUOTE]
> To think that the need for romance is not needed is equivalent to woman thinking sex is not a need for men. The men who have a problem accepting a women's need for romance should easily understand a woman not accepting a man's need for sex. It is ignorance on the part of both.


Absolutely agreed, and as a man this quite frankly is what bugs me the most.

The double standard.

I fully understand the need for romance for women. I have no problem with the very large industry built on satisfying just that.

I do my best to not only provide romance to my wife with our busy schedules but be the man of the house too. Will I EVER be able to equal what's in those books or movies? Not a damn chance. Does it bother me? Does it make me feel less of a man? Do I feel like I am being compared to? No to all of the above. Why? They're fiction. She simply needs a temporary escape/release that I can't necessarily meet at that given time for her. Go for it babe...I'm right here when you're done. 

Yet, when the male outlet equivalent (porn) is used to help satisfy our physiological needs it's immediately DEFCON 5 bring on the guilt trip. 

Why is that?

Backstory Time:
In our case for the last 17 years neither porn nor romance media has gotten in the way of making love. It is *only* used when we can't meet each others needs for the short term. We have also been monogamous.

Those that use it instead of being with their partner IMHO have something else deeper going on that needs to be addressed. 

It also hasn't changed my tastes. Quite the opposite. My tastes drive what I look for. It HAS however given me some good things to try in the sack over the years, to great effect.

The result is generally a multi-orgasmic wife who will often call me up during her busy day the next day and tell me she is having problems focusing on her job  

...I guess I'm just not the 'stereotypical' porn user.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Ian, not one person has pm'd me with a show of support in this thread. Now I could take that to mean that your voice is necessary and mine is not, but I would like to argue that for a moment before moving on.

I don't see you as the loud voice of the oppressed opposition. Rather I see you as the very vocal voice of a voice that is everywhere, loud and constantly demanding. It is slanted 100% towards men even if tempered with a mock understanding of female sexuality and emotions. Men have been standing up and vehemently agreeing with your voice forever. They've been creating laws, scriptures and tools for themselves to back up your voice.

You may feel your voice is new or a warning to be heeded by women, but I see it as outplayed and overheard.

History has told us over and over again that regardless of culture, if you empower women they are capable of all of the things men at one time told them they were incapable of. They are responsible for many of the things that they accused women of. They will choose freedom over repression and they are passionate pleaser's and nurturer's.

Your message empowers men and caters to their needs and uses the common repression and fear tactics seen forever. In the next paragraph I will mix history with present from various cultures.

Eve grabs the apple. God hands Mohammed a child virgin of his liking. Queens were used for heirs and decapitated for being too frank. Women was created to serve man. Rape of a woman is punishable by death...not for the man but for the woman who was raped. It's a woman's responsibility to keep her man happy. Porn objectifies women for man's pleasure. Fear of a better woman from the East to serve man is meant to create fear in Western women. 

The list goes on and on and on.

NOW. What I said in my post prior to this one was that as a woman your (and the many thousands of other posts by men similar in belief to you) does create insecurity for those of us married to good men. Your messages tells women that they are impossible examples of men that are rather repressed than capable of being in existence.

I have thought about this, spoken at large to my husband about it. He disagrees. He will never write you a PM telling you so. It comes down to whether or not I believe him and I do. I have to because he has never shown me differently.

All I can think when all this is said and done is that it's a shame that he is the exception in regards to his views on women and I truly hope that my boys grow up to be just like him (minus his horrible time issues!).

This exceptional voice is the more important voice, even if it goes unheard or unheeded. It has to be out there.

Women deserve respect and do not deserve to be objectified or made to feel unworthy because of who they are. They do not deserve to be repressed and contrary to your very BUZZ'ING message, you are wrong. It is woman who has been repressed and coveted as well as controlled by man throughout history.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Now, on to the story you wrote...even though I have so many other points I'd like to make on your counter points as well. I'll get there, I'll get there.

Why do I not feel any empathy for this old man who tolerated an unhappy life for so long and then checks out with a long note that blames his wife for his undoing? I don't empathize because it's freaking lame. It's lamer still that men would sit around during all of this and whisper that it might happen to them. How freaking lame. Given all the advantages of being a man and the lack of inherent responsibility assigned to their sex, they give up their lives to live with controlling women who torture them to the point of suicide? Is this sad? Absolutely but sad in an I feel sorry for a human being who has so many opportunities around them and squanders them into their self inflicted death. 

"Is it that they fear the pain of death or could it be they fear the joy of life."
-Toad the Wet Sprocket

Having said that, there is a Jewish Proverb that is paraphrased into..."What's Truer than the Truth? The Story." 

I get that you know and use this Proverb regularly. It should come with a warning; however, "be sure that everyone gets a chance to tell their story!"

I could tell you dozens of stories of women who have been sexually abused at the hands of men or left behind to raise children without a father. I could pick out stories that illustrated my point and show where society fails children, men and women. I could go on and on and on and on and on and will, of course. In my own neighborhood we have had a tragedy.

A single mother who worked 12 hours a day as a bus driver making $12 an hour stabbed her 9 year old son to death and then tossed him out his window and put him, blood and all, in the minivan. She then tried to kill herself by turning the knife on herself but called the police in time to be saved. She is currently serving a life sentence and plead guilty. The son's father...well, he was in Florida at the time and had begun a new family. Do I blame him for the son's death? Absolutely not, although by your logic I could say that his deserting of his family ended up killing the child. I could blame society failing to provide adequate support to the Mom. I could look for blame everywhere. I do remember after it happened many Mom's looked at themselves with fear...were they, could they ever be capable of such drastic, horrible and disgusting actions towards their own children that they love.

I knew this woman, my community knew her and the child. They, by all accounts looked happy together as well. Ice cream at the inlet in the summer, Boy Scout meetings and doing well in school for the child.

Where is personable responsibility? 

If you don't believe me, click away as here is this woman's tragic story...
Manasquan woman admits killing 9-year-old son | NJ.com

The point is that we all have the ability to make choices. We can choose to live a life of misery or we can choose to write our own story and fill it with carefully chosen characters and intense experiences (both good and bad).

We can also choose to be a good man or a good woman and we can choose to fill our lives up with mutual understanding and satisfaction or disregard our significant others for our own gain for as long as they will put up with it.

Bottom line, you can't blame your own misery on anyone else (male or female) if you don't do anything to change it.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

It's gold start Monday for Trenton!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> to bad internet porn wsn't around he might still be alive.
> 
> if it just saves one life its worth it.


Awww...come on...that's a stretch to say the least.

Talk about grasping straws!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

The guy took his life because he couldn't tell his wife what his needs were, was afraid to divorce because his kids and grandkids would hate him and he continued to portray the good guy throughout it all. Actually, is sounded like he had a victim mentality and his actions turned him in to a martyr. He did the singular most selfish thing a person could ever do but instead of viewing it that way, it becomes "look at how bad he had it" and it's all her fault.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> IanIronWood, you give such Tremenously MOVING stories on here. I have been missing this entire thread, but just caught this story you gave about the old man & frigid wife.
> 
> I am one woman on here that mostly agrees with the things you say!


*shudder*


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> to bad internet porn wsn't around he might still be alive.
> 
> if it just saves one life its worth it.


Do you really think porn mags, penthouse, dirty pics, etc. wasn't around? Are you being tongue and cheek because your post is sort of funny.

The man was selfish. Why would we ever hold this up as an example to men? Just ew.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I am sorry Trenton, accually I agree with you on what you said about that old man too, He should have stood up for himself -HE** yeah!! But some people are just soooooo SELF-LESS, even in church we learn these things, to the point of a martrydome mentality. 

Peronsonally I think we should care more about our own selves, that old man should have went out and got himself laid somewhere!! He would have been alot better off. I don't think anyone should stay in a marraige where they are miserable, I feel very strongly about this but many many many do - to the detriment of themselves & their sanity. Very very very sad to me. They do it for God , they do it for Kids, they do it in the name of "hope". 

I have not followed this thread, YOU have GREAT points, you are close to your causes, with women being victims. You know of what you speaking, I have no doubt. 

I am not as diligent a reader on here as the rest of you, but what I have read by him does not seem outragrous to me, he sounds very very intelligent - I think he does represent the way the average man "thinks" --and you represent the way many women feel. I guess that is why you guys keep going at it, trying to outdo one another. 

I wish my silly new thread would take off like this one. I am feeling slighted.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow that story was sad indeed. To bad he felt like that was his only option out.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am sorry Trenton, accually I agree with you on what you said about that old man too, He should have stood up for himself -HE** yeah!! But some people are just soooooo SELF-LESS, even in church we learn these things, to the point of a martrydome mentality.
> 
> Peronsonally I think we should care more about our own selves, that old man should have went out and got himself laid somewhere!! He would have been alot better off. I don't think anyone should stay in a marraige where they are miserable, I feel very strongly about this but many many many do - to the detriment of themselves & their sanity. Very very very sad to me. They do it for God , they do it for Kids, they do it in the name of "hope".
> 
> ...


Killing yourself and writing a 10 page letter blaming your wife is NOT selfless.

He is intelligent but that doesn't mean he's right.

I do not view women as victims. This is a misconceived notion of women who stand up for women who do not have the same rights as other women or who have been victims of abuse at one time or another. I see view women as strong, beautiful, powerful, enduring and a great compliment to a man.

Men and women can have beautiful, fulfilling life-long relationships together. Your relationship being just one example.

I keep responding because I do feel passionate that Ian is very far off the mark from helping anything but the growth of misogyny for the benefit of the penis alone and that is not good for a man or a woman.

I read your thread, it was a beautifully written piece. Unfortunately, I couldn't add much because I don't share your experience.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Ian sounds like pure William Faulkner. His novel "The Sound and the Fury" comes to mind. 

"Out, out, brief candle. 
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player 
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale 
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

It's interesting Ian, when I read your post William Faulkner comes to mind. The sad story of the suicide of the elderly gentleman especially. There is the humid, heavy, oppressive brooding nature to what you write much like Fauklner's stories. Makes me glade that I don't live in your would. If I did, I would run like the dark one was trying to put his mark on me. There is so little hope, joy, forgiveness. The injustices pile up and swallow the sun. 

I don't know if you have read any Faulkner; his biographers sum up the fictional characters as "frantically discontentment women and the imaginatively bankrupt once-dominant class". 

The female characterization seem to bear a resemblance to your view of woman Ian. I will not give my opinion of who the latter description is reminiscent of. 

I am moved to write this because I think there is too much darkness in some of these post. So much so that I am going to stop participating in the forum. I have been helped enormously but I feel there are not enough people posting positive messages or if they are here they are silent. 

My advice, stop reading post of doom and glom - don't read them don't get caught up in answering them. Anybody remember reading Br'er Rabbit and the ******** fable? Br'er gets stuck fast to the ********, but he does the seemingly impossible, he escapes. Moral - don't get immeshed in someone else's nightmare, if you do the means to escape is at hand. 

Look peoples, there is one thing that men and women have that the animals don't, a soul. I think the soul is a promise that no matter what happens we have the power to find happiness, love and peace. 

All of the men who wrote to Ian because you feel oppressed you have that potential too. Take a step out into what appears to be nothingness and you will find your life again. Fear is holding you to the desperate situations. The same for woman who stay in misery. 

Do I sound childish? In a way I am childish. I have a vivid imagination and for some reason, endless hope. I also believe in myself, not in an arrogant way, I believe the same for everyone. I believe man can shape his reality by the way he thinks, acts and believes. 

I have done it, not just once but, many times. I was born to immigrant parents with 6th grade educations. I am non-white, female, if you looked at me when I was growing up you would say there is no way she will accomplish what I have. However, if I gave you my name, you would get over 400 Google hits. Me, a poor girl, born to uneducated people, not exactly welcomed with open arms in our adopted county. 

I have accomplished more than people who started out with much more privilege than I. The thing is, no one told me that I could not take myself where my talents and drive led me. No one told me that there were external limits, only internal ones. And I believed them. 

One of my grandmothers saying was "don't go into the same rathole twice". I believed her; when I found closed doors and it never occurred to me to bang on them for admittance, I turned around and looked for the open one. 

The point of sharing my story is that I have been given much, not because I deserve it but, because I think I am supposed to share it. My message is HOPE for the future, FAITH in yourself and a fearlessness in the face of adversity. 

I am greatly influenced by Viktor Frankl who wrote "Mans Search for Meaning", and by my hard working family who never instilled fear in me. Read the book its a very short but it is filled with as much hope as the Holy text of all of the worlds religions in my opinion. 

This is my swan song, I think I have come to the end of my journey among you good people and I cannot thank you enough for you unselfish acceptance of me..


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ian,
You read a 10 page suicide note? How did you get ahold of it as they were not relatives and you were a child to boot. Who would let a child read a suicide note?!


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

And your dad said to you too? 

"Learn something from this," my dad said, simply.

"Like what?"

"This is what can happen to a man if he doesn't choose his wife wisely."

Wow! Guess that was words of wisdom huh? I guess anyone who doesn't choose wisely in anything, things can happen. That was that old mans choice, and its sad, because he probably had other options. My guess is, he was mentally ill to begin with. His wifes nagging and being frigid probably didn't help, but it was HIS choice to do what he did. His wife didn't make him do anything. But I like how it kind of ends up with blame being placed on her. It comes across like that anyway.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> Women also have been trained to dismiss the intracacies of male sexuality (and its related _accoutremont_) not as being Unknowable, but as Not Worth Knowing. What motivates a man's sexuality has been far less concern (if any) to women than how to attract the interest and attention of men in various ways. When he's moody or sullen or distracted, instead of understanding how that emotion fits within the male sexual cycle and what it means, you dismiss it as him just being a ________ and he'll get over it.


I notice that you write a lot about things, extrapolating vigorously, regarding these subjects. For example, the intricacies of male sexuality.

Do you think you these voluminous tracts serve to convince or defend effectively?


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Hmmm, you know, I don't feel he was blaming the woman. I don't feel Ian does that in most of his posts. Guess it is because I'm a dude, but sometimes it seems as if people read too much into how something is written

From my perspective, he was telling the story about a man who was not in touch with what he really wanted, could not express it, then, because he could not express or leave got dismissed by his wife and then decided to end it all. And for me, that rings true. A man who does not know how to express his needs will have them dismissed by a woman most of the time, because they won't get it. Same for a woman. If she can't express that she needs an emotional connection and why (it is important), then he will dismiss hers as well. 

Sure, he is somewhat angry and biased in his posts, but I feel it is because when he posts something from a man's POV, he sometimes gets attacked for saying such a thing. His response? He has to defend more by exaggerating. This ends up with him generalizing more and you guys thinking he hates women. I have to say, everything he has posted about male psyche, interactions with women and how some women react to how men think ring true with what I have experienced with females. 

Most often the question I have had from female friends about guys is why do they need sex. The moment I start to explain, I always get the "You hav to be kidding me" look. Only after fully having explained and having answered the questions do they think, hmmm, ok. A problem here is, explaining this always makes it seem as if women's feeling don't matter. That is the biggest problem it seems some women have with male sexuality. Explaining it always makes it look as if the woman doesn't matter. You have to clearly say it every step of the way, or thy will think we are the biggest a holes around. 

Now, some seem far off and only time can prove him right or wrong (e.g. sex Ro-Bobbits), others I don't agree with (e.g. porn is a need, addiction to tampons), some seem plausible but I would want to see research and backstory (male female dynamic changed) and other I agree with as well (porn doesn't need to be harmful and not everybody is being abused). 

Well, will probably get a few flames, if any reaction but this was me defending Ian somewhat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I think its more so not what he says but the way its said.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

I read the story and it kind of comes across as something I've read before, or very similar. 

It did seem the man was mentally off a bit, and even from my point of view from a man, there were parts that did come across as he had no other choice because his wife drove him to it with her ways. Although, I'm sure he did have other choices, but if one is mentally off or not in the right frame of mind at the time, then perhaps his thinking was a bit cloudy. 

As far as the porn topic goes, its one of those things that I'm thankful for that doesn't rule my world. I do know I'll be ok without it.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Catherine, I do hope this won't be your swan song. Would love to keep in touch even if it is. Whatever you do, just make sure it's not your Black Swan song


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> I think its more so not what he says but the way its said.


Yes, agreed. But if you are one person defending against many who seem to dismiss him, your way of defending would get more aggressive. That is what is happening here. If you checked his other posts at the start and othe topics, they seem less harsh. But when constantly attacked (would feel the same way to be honest), you go on the defensive, which doesn't help your point come across>opposition will defend agains your attack>vicious circle>end up with addicted to tampons. Thankfully that somewhat diffused the situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Hmmm, you know, I don't feel he was blaming the woman. I don't feel Ian does that in most of his posts. Guess it is because I'm a dude, but sometimes it seems as if people read too much into how something is written
> 
> From my perspective, he was telling the story about a man who was not in touch with what he really wanted, could not express it, then, because he could not express or leave got dismissed by his wife and then decided to end it all. And for me, that rings true. A man who does not know how to express his needs will have them dismissed by a woman most of the time, because they won't get it. Same for a woman. If she can't express that she needs an emotional connection and why (it is important), then he will dismiss hers as well.
> 
> ...



Sex Ro-Bobbits is something I'm building there Draguna (and going to have to pay Amp handsomely for the name)! He's just placing stock in the purely, man pleasure bot with the bet that they will replace women who don't put out 

No need to flame anyone. It's just a healthy discussion from my POV. I say what I think and can respect the rights of others to do the same.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> This is my swan song, I think I have come to the end of my journey among you good people and I cannot thank you enough for you unselfish acceptance of me..


What... No... You are my fav person on this forum. Sure, I have not been here long and have mostly posted in sexuality and men forum (not much experience) but you are my fav female poster. Always so thought out and tend to agree with you or at the very least understand you. I love following you around as your advice is sound. Gah, would suck if you went you know. Oh well, it is not my right to make you change your mind, but if you really go, you will be missed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Trenton said:


> Killing yourself and writing a 10 page letter blaming your wife is NOT selfless.


 I guess I can't argue that one! If he skipped the hateful daming letter, I might still call him self-less though, a very sick demented mentally ill self-less but he could have killed her in a rage, it could have been worse. If the story is even true. Ian reading this 10 page letter at age 13 does not sound right to me at all, how did he get his hands on it & why was he allowed to read it. Too strange indeed. 




Trenton said:


> Men and women can have beautiful, fulfilling life-long relationships together.


 Absolutely 



Trenton said:


> I keep responding because I do feel passionate that Ian is very far off the mark from helping anything but the growth of *misogyny* for the benefit of the penis alone and that is not good for a man or a woman.


I didn't know what that word meant, so I looked it up. Urban Dictionary: misogyny 
I didn't see his stuff that harsh, but I have probably only read about 1/10 if it. 




Trenton said:


> I read your thread, it was a beautifully written piece. Unfortunately, I couldn't add much because I don't share your experience.


 No need for the sad face, that is a good thing!! Wish I could say the same.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Sex Ro-Bobbits is something I'm building there Draguna (and going to have to pay Amp handsomely for the name)! He's just placing stock in the purely, man pleasure bot with the bet that they will replace women who don't put out
> 
> No need to flame anyone. It's just a healthy discussion from my POV. I say what I think and can respect the rights of others to do the same.


Yep, I know, just don't send one my way please. Happy with how I am now  

As for the discussion, yes, I agree, you were all discussing what you felt. And I really do appreciate it. I am always glad to see people who don't agree with me. However, for a topic this heavily debated, it seemed most of the time that it was all between the women (mostly you and Brennan) and Ian. And it SEEMS it got to a point where neither side stopped, thought about what the other said and started a post with something similar to "Hmm, I understand what you are saying." I think the men and women here even kind of skipped this thread as they felt that it would be better for them to shut up because any reply to their post would end up with: "Don't care, porn is bad." or "We need the porn." Well, shouldn't speak for most people, but that is how I felt about this thread. 

Only after it died down and the jokes came, did more men started posting in here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Yep, I know, just don't send one my way please. Happy with how I am now
> 
> As for the discussion, yes, I agree, you were all discussing what you felt. And I really do appreciate it. I am always glad to see people who don't agree with me. However, for a topic this heavily debated, it seemed most of the time that it was all between the women (mostly you and Brennan) and Ian. And it SEEMS it got to a point where neither side stopped, thought about what the other said and started a post with something similar to "Hmm, I understand what you are saying." I think the men and women here even kind of skipped this thread as they felt that it would be better for them to shut up because any reply to their post would end up with: "Don't care, porn is bad." or "We need the porn." Well, shouldn't speak for most people, but that is how I felt about this thread.
> 
> ...


I can't be responsible for whether others read or respond to my posts though. I think porn objectifies women and teaches men pretty bad misconceptions about female sexuality. That's my stance and I'm sticking to it. I try to be as kind as is possible for my opinionated soul and accept any posters and their thoughts as just as important as my own even if I disagree. It's all I can offer.

I also think, in the case of this specific thread, if it causes issues for either in the relationship it's like any other topic and needs to be addressed and not ignored or shoo'ed off as normal and natural.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I guess I can't argue that one! If he skipped the hateful daming letter, I might still call him self-less though, a very sick demented mentally ill self-less but he could have killed her in a rage, it could have been worse. If the story is even true. Ian reading this 10 page letter at age 13 does not sound right to me at all, how did he get his hands on it & why was he allowed to read it. Too strange indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


SA, you know you're the bomb!


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Yeah, completely agree with your last paragraph and completely understand why you feel like that about porn in general. I think I should stop posting in this thread if I agree or disagree. Not because I don't feel like debating, but because it is kind of pointless. We all agree that porn is bad when it replaces intimacy. We (agree to) disagree that porn can teach a man and woman things they can try in bed. Not all, some. We all (agree to) disagree that porn is a bad/good thing, because there is a lot/not so much abuse and the women get treated mostly badly/well. 

I guess the only point of real contention is whether a man in a healthy relationship is neglecting his wife if he watches porn. And here, there are two camps. The men say: I don't need to, but it is appealing and works better than fantasizing and part of the female population agrees. The women say there is no need because I give him all he wants and he should not to jack off/need anyone else and part of the male population agrees. This is what has not been explored and I'd like to know more about. Why do women feel like men shouldn't and if you need to know my side, I'd gladly explain. Anyone care to explain? I'm asking only in the context of a man being in a relationship and he does not neglect his wife or push her to do things. Im also not asking if you agree in general that it is a good or bad thing. 

This is my curiosity as I don't really feel that say. Sure, I see that you feel he doesn't desire you, or that he is seeking it outside the marriage, but why do you feel that?

I personally fall in the first category as I have a probably too high a drive and it just helps me relieving it faster.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Wowzers MrIronwood, where to even begin.
I guess at the start.



IanIronwood said:


> Perhaps it is unfair. But maybe not. While we've been discussing this topic over the last week or so, and I've had a few male supporters chime in in my defense, I've gotten more positive, private messages in support from men (from "God, I wish I had the balls to say that!" to "You know, I never thought of it that way, but you're right!") than y'all would be comfortable with. Like it or not, at least some of what I have said has resonated strongly with many men.


Funnily enough, I've had quite a few support messages myself, however never felt the need to openly talk about it (untill now). Because it doesn't seem to change the facts about porn being harmful, it just seems like bragging really.

I also find it funny that in such a misogynistic world coupled with anonimity on a forum that men are scared to write their true feelings. IRL I have though come across many women afraid of being labelled a prude and thus not feeling that she can really share her true feelings about porn.



> From a female perspective, that's likely to make you a little nauseated, and I can understand that. You don't want to think that beneath the intelligent, civilized exterior of the men in your life there lies a sex-crazed, egotistical beast who's always going to be dissatisfied with your sexual performance and feeling regrets about trading freedom for marriage. That's a really appalling thing to think about the men you love.


From a male or a human perspective how would you feel if your woman preffered porn to sex over you, was all ways looking at sexual intercourse between people she didn't know and that was likely to make her unsatisfied with you and critical in the bedroom. if she was wanting you to constantly do things that didn't bring you any pleasure, you didn't cum, etc?

I actually hope my fiance is sex crazed, because I know I am. I just want his sexed crazed self giving me his sexed crazed attention and I in turn will do the same thing.:smthumbup:

I know that porn contributes to dissatisfaction from both people, so if you want a marriage where you both feel good and positive about the sex, stop watching porn.




> Thing is, it's only appalling if you insist on using an exclusively female perspective of love and marriage and sex, instead of appreciating it from the male point of view.


No it really just is appalling and the worst part is that men you like spin these myths and other men buy them because it suits them to do so. society frames sexuality in a certain way, and that frame is one where women are rarely respected. if more men demanded that women were respected and valued, the entire frame would change and men would not have feelings of enititlements to women's sexuality.



> Just like trying to appreciate female sexuality from the male point of view is going to be utterly frustrating and confusing to men (as it is) if they aren't willing to step outside their own narrow perspectives and be open to the differences without judgement or condemnation.


I do appreciate male sexuality, but you are the one with a narrow definition, you are the one who is narrowly defining men as creatures who must have porn and will be dissatisfied. I refuse to pigeon hole men that way. You are the one judgeing and saying men are like this and nothing can be done about it.


> Most men, admittedly, don't have that kind of emotional range, and end up aping what they think they should do in a relationship to make a woman happy to conceal what they're thinking. We've been trained to throw up our hands and dismiss that perspective as Unknowable, and it's not. It's just hard. They try to fathom how your emotions and your judgment can be affected that much by your hormones, and how your libido takes so freakin' long to warm up, and it's just a little too complex for the average dude to handle, so instead he buys you flowers and compliments you silly and hopes that the stars are in the right position.


I personally don't think it's that hard, and if it's too hard you have been watching too much porn and are far too invested in yourself to really pay attention to your partners needs.


> Women also have been trained to dismiss the intracacies of male sexuality (and its related _accoutremont_) not as being Unknowable, but as Not Worth Knowing. What motivates a man's sexuality has been far less concern (if any) to women than how to attract the interest and attention of men in various ways. When he's moody or sullen or distracted, instead of understanding how that emotion fits within the male sexual cycle and what it means, you dismiss it as him just being a ________ and he'll get over it.


What has this got to do with porn, moreover most men complain about lack of sex and how this effects their moods, not how their moods effect them wanting sex. 
*see I have been paying attention.



> Neither position is helpful in bridging this gap between the genders. With neither side willing to invest in educating themselves about the other, they spin their wheels in warring camps and complain when the machinery breaks down, yet won't take the time to learn how it works in the first place. If there was more mutual understanding and less judgement, I think a lot of this would clear up.


Wonderful, and again what has this got to do with porn when as all ready proven porn is not a need, and it is harmful to sex lives?




> And what are we supposed to do, if we're unhappy and unsatisfied in a relationship? Believe me, men power through an awful lot in the course of a marriage that they find unpleasant, unsatisfying, tedious, and occasionally dangerous. It might not be sexual in nature, but I've seen men physically and mentally destroy themselves for the benefit of their wives and families and not utter a word of complaint.


Anyone dissatisfied should tell the other person as directly as they can. 

I know a lot of women are unhappy due their men watching porn or having porn addictions as witness on this very forum, problem is they tell their husbands, and what happens they get 'judged' and then men often refuse to give it up because they have been told they are entitled to it.


> And we know when you're doing that. Don't think that we don't. If you're good at it, and it's an occasional thing, that's one thing -- but if every sexual experience a man has with his wife leads to her gritting her teeth and enduring it, no matter what preparations and thoughtful measures he's taken, then the result is a man who doubts himself at such a basic level that he feels hollow inside. Sure, sure, it doesn't matter -- it's just a dude -- but don't think we don't know. We know. Sometimes we appreciate it, and sometimes we're crippled with guilt over it, and sometimes we might not even initiate for a while because we're so disturbed by the fact that our expression of physical love has not only failed to please you, but has caused you pain. But we do know.


What you are describing is a situation that is not helped by porn, but made worse, moreover why is she gritting her teeth? Does she feel emotionally and sexually satisfied? work on that, work on communicating, but do not whatever you do turn to porn for an "education".

If you are failing to please Stop watching porn.



> Believe me, that works both ways.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps. But y'all get closer to being on your side than we do, by a longshot. Men are typically discouraged from forming long-term bonds with other men on our own, whereas women form communities almost automatically. No telling how many men feel that they are utterly alone in this world, the wife that was supposed to be his best friend turning into . . . something else, and no one to talk to about the things that regularly batter our souls. How many women have girlfriends they've had for decades? Most men can count the number of guys he can really talk to on one hand, and our natural inclination when there is a problem is to suffer in silence.


My fiance is my best friend and I tell him everything, and i hope in turn feels he can trust me. But what again has this got to do with porn? I'm consfused about where it fits in, because porn doesn't bring you closer to your woman.




> When I was about 13 in my neighborhood lived an older couple, in their 50s. They seemed about as near perfect a happily married couple as you could ask for, over 30 years together, childhood sweethearts who married out of high school. Two kids, grown and gone. Grandkids in other states. Active in their community, church, etc. Everyone loved this couple, kind of the neighborhood grandparents. They always seemed so happy, even if the husband didn't talk much.
> 
> One day my brother and I went over to see if we could borrow some dry gas for the lawnmower, and we found the husband in his shed weeping furiously. He heard us and by the time we got there, he'd recovered, all smiles, and helped us out. But it disturbed us both at a deep level, and we started paying close attention to them out of curiosity.
> 
> ...


Who knows what really happened in that marraige and that is indeed a very sad story, but it doesn't even come close to the story of children who are traffiked as children and forced to sleep with hundreds of men and end up with HIV. What does that tell you about the cruelty of men, men who feel it's their inherent right to do with females as they please.



> So who had to win and who had to lose? The husband and wife each made choices along the way, and it was clear that her happiness included not having sex after her kids were in high school, because (her words) "A grown woman shouldn't have to put up with that at my age". The husband obviously respected that decision, even if he was emotionally crushed by it. Did he have to lose, then? Because it's looking like a loss from my perspective.


Well societal norms effect everyone and that woman could have been shamed about sex, been raped or assaulted any number of things.
I personally see a marriage without sex as a very sad thing and think something is missing, but it's certainly not porn.

I mean if porn really is a magic cure all why aren't all these men watching it instantly happy about their lives, why do they post about lack of sex and why does it seem to harm so many relationships?




> Sex is a powerful thing. Perhaps one of the most powerful forces we experience. And while it has power for both men and women, they're two different kinds of power, and we deal with it in very different ways. Y'all can look at the way that we view sex as "wrong", "crude", or any other adjective you'd like. But it's how we view it, and whether women think it's wrong or right or crude or whatever, it's the only sexuality we have. We can live by it . . . or we can die by it. But we can't change our essential nature, any more than you can.


Porn is not sexuality. I am a sexual being too, but it does not give the right to do things that would harm our relationship for sexual thrills.
What you are getting at is men just can't help themselves, and porn will fix that. that is rubbish, luckily for my fiance and my son i happen to believe men are capable of being good people, caring and respecting women and having empathy for them, whilst also enjoying sex and their own sexuality. better still on their own terms without being influenced by porn.



> I kind of hope this has at least made you think about the men in your life and wonder if they have stuff that's eating at them like that, stuff that they're terrified you'll find out or they can't bring themselves to talk to you about for fear of judgement and loss of respect. We get good at concealing that sort of thing, and if we're moved enough to bring it up at all you can bet that it's a profound matter to us. We're also good at enduring an unpleasant situation indefinitely for the women we love. But we are human, and we do break, despite our best efforts. Whether or not you find that worthy of respect is up to you, I guess, but please keep it in mind when you're frustrated with the men in your life, because if we don't find respect with y'all . . . well, there are other ways out. Even for honorable men.


You know what I really hope not, because I have been very open about what I like and he has given me no reason to believe he isn't being honest. he's told me about sexual interests and fetishes that some people really would not like and have no part of, but I am willing to give anything a go that I feel will not compromise our relationship.

And again, it does not change that porn is bad for sexual relationships.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Yeah, completely agree with your last paragraph and completely understand why you feel like that about porn in general. I think I should stop posting in this thread if I agree or disagree. Not because I don't feel like debating, but because it is kind of pointless. We all agree that porn is bad when it replaces intimacy. We (agree to) disagree that porn can teach a man and woman things they can try in bed. Not all, some. We all (agree to) disagree that porn is a bad/good thing, because there is a lot/not so much abuse and the women get treated mostly badly/well.
> 
> I guess the only point of real contention is whether a man in a healthy relationship is neglecting his wife if he watches porn. And here, there are two camps. The men say: I don't need to, but it is appealing and works better than fantasizing and part of the female population agrees. The women say there is no need because I give him all he wants and he should not to jack off/need anyone else and part of the male population agrees. This is what has not been explored and I'd like to know more about. Why do women feel like men shouldn't and if you need to know my side, I'd gladly explain. Anyone care to explain? I'm asking only in the context of a man being in a relationship and he does not neglect his wife or push her to do things. Im also not asking if you agree in general that it is a good or bad thing.
> 
> ...


I fall in an off the chart category as my husband gets it whenever he wants as a rule and he does not watch porn. So I can't really empathize with the question you are asking. 

I do feel that he shouldn't because I am willing to fulfill any fantasy. He agrees and our sex life has never been an issue in the full 16 years I've known him (14 years married). 

I still do occasionally fake it for his sake but the more I look at the whole, the more this makes sense. The more I compare this to the lives of others, the more I realize I don't appreciate it. I will still wander into self pity once in awhile but who doesn't?

My husband is a kind and attentive lover. I am the one who has been at the forefront of pushing the kinky because with him I feel safe to explore. When we do somewhat kinky things I feel more closely attached and bonded to him.

This is what I want for all couples...a safe bubble to freely explore their sexuality free from interference and the imagery of others in their minds, pre-conceived notions of sex or expectations/regulations that will only stand in the way (albeit religious, society or porn imposed). This is the kind of holistic orgasm that is achieved only by complete dedication to one another but complete honesty and openness is required and so hard to achieve.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Hey Syrum, thanks for answering my other thoughts to Ian on what he wrote to me. I couldn't agree more.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Yeah, completely agree with your last paragraph and completely understand why you feel like that about porn in general. I think I should stop posting in this thread if I agree or disagree. Not because I don't feel like debating, but because it is kind of pointless. We all agree that porn is bad when it replaces intimacy. We (agree to) disagree that porn can teach a man and woman things they can try in bed.





> Not all, some. We all (agree to) disagree that porn is a bad/good thing, because there is a lot/not so much abuse and the women get treated mostly badly/well.


I think there is irrefutable proof women are treated poorly, if not down right abused, raped etc.


> I guess the only point of real contention is whether a man in a healthy relationship is neglecting his wife if he watches porn. And here, there are two camps. The men say: I don't need to, but it is appealing and works better than fantasizing and part of the female population agrees. The women say there is no need because I give him all he wants and he should not to jack off/need anyone else and part of the male population agrees. This is what has not been explored and I'd like to know more about. Why do women feel like men shouldn't and if you need to know my side, I'd gladly explain. Anyone care to explain? I'm asking only in the context of a man being in a relationship and he does not neglect his wife or push her to do things. Im also not asking if you agree in general that it is a good or bad thing.


I don't honestly think the question can be answered without saying that all the reasons why porn is wrong, as has allready been explained. It makes men bad in bed, degrades women, turns women into commodities, changes the way they view women and sex, porn is junk food for the brain.

Yes it's a bad thing, at the very least it makes men lazy, if they can't use their imaginations to jack off, then they really need to step back.



> This is my curiosity as I don't really feel that say. Sure, I see that you feel he doesn't desire you, or that he is seeking it outside the marriage, but why do you feel that?


It is other women they are getting off to, they are real women, real people. They are also not like your average woman, they have most likely had all hair professional removed, been bleached, maybe had a boob job, professional make up, often women in porn also now feel pressure to have labioplasty etc.



> I personally fall in the first category as I have a probably too high a drive and it just helps me relieving it faster.


I have a high sex drive too, but sometimes these things take time, perhaps your brain does not work the way it should though, as porn is proven to change your brain and thus without porn it can become harder to orgasm. What is good about that?

Men have been duping women and women have been deluding themselves that porn is not like cheating, when it is and just as damaging if not moreso in many cases.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

You may believe porn is like cheating. I do not. That doesn't mean I have been deluding myself and you haven't. Our boundaries and perceptions are just _different_. If my opinion is different to yours, that doesn't mean I am delusional, crazy or wrong.

Porn doesn't make people do or be anything. Honestly this really isn't the case of "monkey see, monkey do". Monkey may want to try something it sees, but that doesn't define the said monkey.

Do you guys really think the guy in Ian's story wrote a 10 page letter that spewed only sex problems? For sure it talked about myriad things that this guy was denied, emotional too, and probably to him he was denied "just because". Unfortunately for him and his wife, he didn't talk about it. He kept it all in. His boundaries didn't let him divorce or cheat. So sadly he took the option he took.

Ian's story reminds me of my father  My father doesn't talk. The only time he "talks" is when he can't take it anymore and he just screams everything out. Unfortunately in both instances there is no communicating with him. That is one of his faults. My mother is a very strong woman and many times it seems to me that she runs over him. That's one of her faults. He will not communicate at all, she will not budge till she gets what she wants from him. 

On the outside my dad appears to be outgoing. When he comes home, he doesn't even say 'hi': he comes, he sits down, he eats and then he goes to his corner and does whatever he wants to do (watch TV, read). When my mom talks to someone about how he is at home, no one believes her. Which pisses her off even more. I am not defending or blaming either one of them. Oh yeah, there have been suicide threats from both of them. Just threats. The threats have happened so many times that upon hearing yet another I just roll my eyes. Maybe I shouldn't anymore. But then again I'd go nuts.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Hey Syrum, thanks for answering my other thoughts to Ian on what he wrote to me. I couldn't agree more.


No! Thank you. I very much enjoy what you write and how you write it, you have got smartz. In fact I wish I could write as well as you.

It is encouraging to me to read some of the women in this thread and the way they question things we are just supposed to accept (but shouldn't), gives me hope that women will start asking for and expecting the respect they deserve.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> You may believe porn is like cheating. I do not. That doesn't mean I have been deluding myself and you haven't. Our boundaries and perceptions are just _different_. If my opinion is different to yours, that doesn't mean I am delusional, crazy or wrong.
> 
> Porn doesn't make people do or be anything. Honestly this really isn't the case of "monkey see, monkey do". Monkey may want to try something it sees, but that doesn't define the said monkey.


Well it seems to be defining many men. Many of these men are saying they need porn. Therefore porn is defining them, grabbing a hold of them and I believe with terrible results.
*
Moreover studies do show that it changes men's brains, and does result in men having less empathy for women. That can never be a good thing.

In fact it is obviously so when men can gloss over/ outright ignore the harm porn does to real women and think only of their own sexual wants and orgasms.*

Some of the men here have even said they have used pron for sex ed, if that's not monkey see monkey do then what is?

I would hate to be with someone who got their sex ed from porn. Urgh.


> Do you guys really think the guy in Ian's story wrote a 10 page letter that spewed only sex problems? For sure it talked about myriad things that this guy was denied, emotional too, and probably to him he was denied "just because". Unfortunately for him and his wife, he didn't talk about it. He kept it all in. His boundaries didn't let him divorce or cheat. So sadly he took the option he took.


No quite the contrary and that was my point. The relationship was very bad obviously. No one seemed to be having their needs met. there didn't seem to be an emotional or sexual connection. this is a big problem for many relationships. 

But what the heck has that got to do with porn?:scratchhead:

If he wants to start a thread about the sexual disconnect between men and women, then I'm all for talking about why that happens and what can be done to bridge the gap.



> Ian's story reminds me of my father  My father doesn't talk. The only time he "talks" is when he can't take it anymore and he just screams everything out. Unfortunately in both instances there is no communicating with him. That is one of his faults. My mother is a very strong woman and many times it seems to me that she runs over him. That's one of her faults. He will not communicate at all, she will not budge till she gets what she wants from him.
> 
> On the outside my dad appears to be outgoing. When he comes home, he doesn't even say 'hi': he comes, he sits down, he eats and then he goes to his corner and does whatever he wants to do (watch TV, read). When my mom talks to someone about how he is at home, no one believes her. Which pisses her off even more. I am not defending or blaming either one of them. Oh yeah, there have been suicide threats from both of them. Just threats. The threats have happened so many times that upon hearing yet another I just roll my eyes. Maybe I shouldn't anymore. But then again I'd go nuts.


That sounds awful and I'm very sorry for your family, but what has that got to do with porn?


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Nothing personal.. but thinking of my dad, I really hope that men will start asking for and expecting the respect they deserve too. Assuming that women deserve respect solely because they are women, so can men because they are men.

It's also encouraging that there are men who question things they are just supposed to accept, because of "just because".

Just don't tell me "No". Explain to me "why not?"

@Syrum: It has as much to do with porn as it has with people's needs (any kind of need) not being met. And no, I am not saying porn is a need. Sex is a need.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

That comfort bubble, where both feel free to explore, have fun, enjoy, experiment... Is a WONDEFUL place. It takes some serious time to get there, but on the sex scale it's worth the wait. It can't make up for all the other areas of a relationship, but it can make many of them less stressful when there is not stress under the sheets. Also, if you are ao comfortable there that you can explore even the crazy stufff *wink* that comfort, in my experience, also goes into what you feel you can discuss and be open about communicating elsewhere. I enjoyed the time I had with a person that came tothat level (though i ended up terribly hurt, I was young and the hurt was temprorary, not to mention led to some GREAT remember when stories with a friend HAAAAAA beware my moon) 

Anyway... it can't be forced, but it can be encouraged. Both people have to be ready for it to work


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Nothing personal.. but thinking of my dad, I really hope that men will start asking for and expecting the respect they deserve too. Assuming that women deserve respect solely because they are women, so can men because they are men.


I don't disagree with that at all. In fact i respect all the men in my life, and I would not want my fiance to allow me to treat him badly. I would want him to tell me it wasn't ok, because i don't ever believe it is.


> It's also encouraging that there are men who question things they are just supposed to accept, because of "just because".


I agree, and I believe my fiance is one such person, very respectful of my feelings but has his own thoughts and feelings and does not seem to just go along with what other men would expect him to, but really thinks about and questions issues, and is very smart. 


> Just don't tell me "No". Explain to me "why not?"


Forgive me lol, I'm not following?:scratchhead:


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

LOL If someone doesn't agree to what I say I really don't want them to go just "no". I want them to explain to me "why not?"

I can't and won't accept just a "no".


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> LOL If someone doesn't agree to what I say I really don't want them to go just "no". I want them to explain to me "why not?"
> 
> I can't and won't accept just a "no".


OMG!!!! I hate the just "no, you're wrong"!!!! Drives me to insanity!!!! I beg for an explanation! I come back with "if I am wrong, tell me why, what am I missing?"

Sorry but I can't change my perspective or my mind with just "no"!!!! ARG Ok just getting frustrated at the though.. Blodd pressure just went up a few points... stupid sense memory HAAAAAAA


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> LOL If someone doesn't agree to what I say I really don't want them to go just "no". I want them to explain to me "why not?"
> 
> I can't and won't accept just a "no".


I agree open communication and explanations are the best. I would want my fiance to be direct about anything I did that he did not like or anything he felt was lacking in our relationship.

I think as long as you do this in a kind and thoughtful way, keeping in mind the other persons feelings then you are doing well.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Just to give you an example. If I had a problem with my husband watching porn, I'd ask him to stop and he'd say "no I won't". "No I won't" won't fly with me. He'd have to explain to me why he wouldn't do that. And if his explanation is coherent and logical, I might and probably would reconsider.

In my relationship there is no room for "because I say so" or "because that's how it is".

You should see his face going red (quite a feat as he is ethically Indian, LOL) when he hears "why, why, why" for an umpteenth time :rofl:

To be fair - he does the same thing to me. And I do not grumble


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Concerning studies and research. Why can't there be an atheist with a background in medicine, psychology and sociology? Preferably two such people, a man and a woman. Now their research I would be very interested in reading.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Reaching, that was the problem I had with the two pieces of research Syrum posted. They seemed somewhat if not heavily biased. I still haven't had the time to check all facts, but I believe that statistics were skewed and the research itself is incomplete. Coupled with the magazine it was posted in, it seemend to be one that no matter what was going to be against porn. Now, if you read the sources, it becomes very interesting. Especially changing brains. It doesn't seem as drastic as posted. I is more akin to getting pumped up by watching an action movie, but the effect is stronger because of the releases in the brain which occur during orgasm. The whole reward mechanism and such. 

And Trenton, thanks for answering. It was loud and clear, completely understand. Guess for you it is more of an understanding between you and your husband, and as a trade off you take care of his needs. Have to say, quite selfless. I like you even more now. Not because of the sex thing, but because you are a woman of real character. 

Reaching, glad to see there are more women who feel the same way I and my gal do. Every time I ask her if she feels threatened by porn, I get the: "Huh? No, why would you think that?" look or a: "Nope". Was almost thinking the both of us were sexual deviants XD

Syrum, I see where you are coming from. You even have back up info. The difference between you and I is previous experiences and how we interpret the facts that were presented about porn. As I posted before, I don't watch all kinds, maybe 50% of the time, we try stuff because it is interesting, not because I push it on her and we still have sex roughly once a day. Not the boring kind, but the fulfilling kind that really makes me want her more. 

However, I cannot and will not make her have sex multiple times a day, as I feel it would be a burden on her. She has her own life, her own stuff to do and I would just bother her with it. So I take care of myself. She doesn't mind and actually encourages me as she likes hearing about it and when possible, watch me. Same the other way around. I like hearing about when she does it or watch. Hers is less frequent, 1-3 times a week, but she still does it. 

I k ow what you think about porn, but I hope you can at least see where I am coming from on the whole porn in a relationship issue. It hasn't made me need stuff from my girl, hasn't made me insensitive to her or view her as less than human, it has given us both ideas to try, but are free to dismiss those. It surely as hell hasn't diminished our communication, as we talk even more nowadays and she has become even more sexually open. There are even some things I wouldn't have tried which she really enjoys, such as rough play, g-spot orgasms, female ejaculation and dp (with a toy).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> That sounds awful and I'm very sorry for your family, but what has that got to do with porn?


That's the thing: if you haven't realized the connection by now, you probably never will. And that's sad. Just one of the many ways that people on one side or another of the gender divide can't manage to garner the empathy and understanding necessary to appreciate what's going on across the divide. At this point I don't think you're going to be able to make that leap and understand that IT'S ALL RELATED. Male sexuality is a deeply personal thing, and while you're happy to simplistically dismiss porn as "bad for women" without appreciating how it could be "good for men", you're showing as much empathy as the men who shake their heads and roll their eyes when a woman has a serious issue and say "Must be that time of the month".

In other words, you aren't taking it seriously. But, luckily, the men are. You'd be very surprised at the number of private messages I've gotten in support. And while that might not jive with what YOUR ideal of manhood, the fact is that those of us who are defining our own sexuality have learned a lot from the discussion. Just not the things you wanted us to learn.

The misandronous tone of the discussion is pretty clear, and I've choked on the number of sentences that, if you reverse the genders, would be pounced on as "misogynist". There is a lack of basic respect for our perspective among many of the women here, to the point where one wonders why make the effort at all, when accepting the mutually destructive _status quo_ is so easy. I guess some things are just too deeply ingrained in our culture to be easily discussed without some profound sharing of perspective.

So you can't see the connection between my story and porn. Let me try to simplify it as much as possible, stripped of all the nuances and complexities: if you gave the wife a choice between a pornofied live husband or a "pure" dead one, which do you think she'd choose?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> That's the thing: if you haven't realized the connection by now, you probably never will. And that's sad. Just one of the many ways that people on one side or another of the gender divide can't manage to garner the empathy and understanding necessary to appreciate what's going on across the divide. At this point I don't think you're going to be able to make that leap and understand that IT'S ALL RELATED. Male sexuality is a deeply personal thing, and while you're happy to simplistically dismiss porn as "bad for women" without appreciating how it could be "good for men", you're showing as much empathy as the men who shake their heads and roll their eyes when a woman has a serious issue and say "Must be that time of the month".
> 
> In other words, you aren't taking it seriously. But, luckily, the men are. You'd be very surprised at the number of private messages I've gotten in support. And while that might not jive with what YOUR ideal of manhood, the fact is that those of us who are defining our own sexuality have learned a lot from the discussion. Just not the things you wanted us to learn.
> 
> ...


His death had little to do with porn, Ian. It had to do with his inability to man up and speak up. His suicide note sounds like it was rife with passive aggressive tendancies and he made certain to blame his wife for all his problems, nevermind the children and grandchildren who didn't matter enough to him. Coward to the core. Which would I chose? Well I wouldn't want the guy dead but I certainly wouldn't want him in my life.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Yeah it may sound like the guy in the story was weak. 

Thing is, after the onset of feminism, some men haven't got a clue how to proceed, when it comes to them dealing with us, women. If they proceeded the way they usually had, they'd be immediately shot down as misogynists/sexists/abusers, you name it (and I am not referring to extreme, bad behaviors). The amount of times I've seen the term "misogynist" on here 

Men's hands have been essentially tied. Yay for us women (I guess), sucks for men. They are essentially forced to be politically correct ("Of course you look great in those pants, honey") and learn to navigate the deep waters on an individual basis - by that I mean learning to deal with boundaries of the woman they are with, within the scope of their (men's) own boundaries.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> His death had little to do with porn, Ian. It had to do with his inability to man up and speak up. His suicide note sounds like it was rife with passive aggressive tendancies and he made certain to blame his wife for all his problems, nevermind the children and grandchildren who didn't matter enough to him. Coward to the core. Which would I chose? Well I wouldn't want the guy dead but I certainly wouldn't want him in my life.


:iagree:

Also, thats great you have received tons of support via PM Ian, however, not sure why they wouldn't feel its ok to support you out in the open.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Brennan said:


> His death had little to do with porn, Ian. It had to do with his inability to man up and speak up. His suicide note sounds like it was rife with passive aggressive tendancies and he made certain to blame his wife for all his problems, nevermind the children and grandchildren who didn't matter enough to him. Coward to the core. Which would I chose? Well I wouldn't want the guy dead but I certainly wouldn't want him in my life.


I'm just courious in the story about how you were made to do porn with your controling boyfriend were you a coward also 

you indicate that your poor family life and low selfesteam were factors. could it not be a factor in that mans case. But because men are supost to be strong and are thought of as whimpy if they express that. 

again a double standard if a woman expresses that low selfesteem made her make bad choices then she get empathy but if a man dose the same he get an eye roll and is told to man up.some women want special rights not equal rights.

Men and women are different and In my mind are what make it work what a women brings to the table is there loving nature and men are the security but in our present world the lines are blured. and some some women seem to want there cake and eat it too


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> I'm just courious in the story about how you were made to do porn with your controling boyfriend were you a coward also
> 
> you indicate that your poor family life and low selfesteam were factors. could it not be a factor in that mans case. But because men are supost to be strong and are thought of as whimpy if they express that.
> 
> ...


Absolutely I was a coward! Should have told him to shove it. I was also young. This guy was in his 50's and seemed to have spent his entire life blaming others. 
I am not, was not, ever asked for sympathy. I told me story, that's it. I don't want special rights, I want equal rights. How you see me any differently is beyond me.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Absolutely I was a coward! Should have told him to shove it. I was also young. This guy was in his 50's and seemed to have spent his entire life blaming others.
> I am not, was not, ever asked for sympathy. I told me story, that's it. I don't want special rights, I want equal rights. How you see me any differently is beyond me.


I was not saying you were asking for sympaty but sociaty gives you sympathy not so for a man.

please I'm not faulting you as a mater of fact I admire you and your courage to share your story.

But quite honestly if a man came on here and shared his story like the man in the fake letter Iron posted he would be a whimp and its better to go out in suicide than be know as a whimp to most men


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> I was not saying you were asking for sympaty but sociaty gives you sympathy not so for a man.
> 
> please I'm not faulting you as a mater of fact I admire you and your courage to share your story.
> 
> But quite honestly if a man came on here and shared his story like the man in the fake letter Iron posted he would be a whimp and its better to go out in suicide than be know as a whimp to most men


You mean the 10 page suicide note that was left to a non-family member 13 year old to read? 

I think if a man came on here with a similar story, alot of people would forward him to the Men's Forum and the man up threads that MEM, BBW, AFEH(Bob) and the wordless wonder, Conrad. They all have fabulous insight and they would have been able to help this man. If Ian's story is to believed, the guy didn't have much in the way of support and bottled it up for years and he WOULD have my sympathy for that. The way he handled it though was to have his dying words be that dripping of distain and venom towards his wife, a wife who up until that point seemed to have zero idea he felt that way. That alone is the act of a coward. Don't even get me started about what he did to his kids.
The story does fit very nicely into Ian's agenda though. No porn=suicide. A little dramic much?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> His death had little to do with porn, Ian. It had to do with his inability to man up and speak up. His suicide note sounds like it was rife with passive aggressive tendancies and he made certain to blame his wife for all his problems, nevermind the children and grandchildren who didn't matter enough to him. Coward to the core. Which would I chose? Well I wouldn't want the guy dead but I certainly wouldn't want him in my life.


Why not want him dead? He's just a man, after all. 

And again, if you haven't made the connection yet, you never will.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Why not want him dead? He's just a man, after all.
> 
> And again, if you haven't made the connection yet, you never will.


I want men dead? Are you for real?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Also, thats great you have received tons of support via PM Ian, however, not sure why they wouldn't feel its ok to support you out in the open.


Isn't it obvious? *Fear of judgement.* 

Women in America have men petrified to reveal their true feelings on the subject, even with the anonymity of the internet. Y'all have been so adept at determining what our answers should be before we give them -- and then condemning us when they aren't -- that masculine culture in America is essentially a two-faced creature. There's the side we show to women, and then there's how we really feel. Most men don't feel that they would have support for what they really think and feel, so they keep their mouths shut, their heads down, and hope they can tiptoe around it when asked. 

So, Yay, women! Only problem is, while I'm sure you're delighted with the results at the moment, I don't think you're going to like where this leads. You asked us to communicate and then condemned us when we dared. You asked about our feelings and then recoiled when we told you. So . . . that ship has pretty much sailed, culturally speaking. And with the internet, that interior double-life can manifest as a _real_ double-life now. Worst yet? You eroded your credibility with us over your inconsistency, and now we're just frustrated and pissed off and playing with our toys and really just not sharing who we are with you. 

But if you're okay with that . . .


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> I was not saying you were asking for sympaty but sociaty gives you sympathy not so for a man.
> 
> please I'm not faulting you as a mater of fact I admire you and your courage to share your story.
> 
> But quite honestly if a man came on here and shared his story like the man in the fake letter Iron posted he would be a whimp and its better to go out in suicide than be know as a whimp to most men


"Fake letter"? Oh, it was real, I assure you. 

And you're absolutely right, especially men in the older generation.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> Isn't it obvious? *Fear of judgement.*
> 
> Women in America have men petrified to reveal their true feelings on the subject, even with the anonymity of the internet. Y'all have been so adept at determining what our answers should be before we give them -- and then condemning us when they aren't -- that masculine culture in America is essentially a two-faced creature. There's the side we show to women, and then there's how we really feel. Most men don't feel that they would have support for what they really think and feel, so they keep their mouths shut, their heads down, and hope they can tiptoe around it when asked.
> 
> ...


But Ian, there are many women here too who feel just as you have stated here. If women do speak up they get judged or condemned for how they feel as well. So I guess it can work both ways.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> You mean the 10 page suicide note that was left to a non-family member 13 year old to read?


I wasn't SUPPOSED to read it, it was evidence and our pal the dippity sherrif (who was only seven years older than me) let me and my brother read it (wink, wink) while he was taking the wife's statement, even though it was totally against policy to do so. But it wasn't much of a secret. Everyone knew about the details in it (though not through us) by the end of the week. 



Trenton said:


> I think if a man came on here with a similar story, alot of people would forward him to the Men's Forum and the man up threads that MEM, BBW, AFEH(Bob) and the wordless wonder, Conrad. They all have fabulous insight and they would have been able to help this man. If Ian's story is to believed, the guy didn't have much in the way of support and bottled it up for years and he WOULD have my sympathy for that. The way he handled it though was to have his dying words be that dripping of distain and venom towards his wife, a wife who up until that point seemed to have zero idea he felt that way. That alone is the act of a coward. Don't even get me started about what he did to his kids.
> The story does fit very nicely into Ian's agenda though. No porn=suicide. A little dramic much?


Wow. Thanks for taking my position so seriously. You just took a meaningful, traumatic childhood event that had a dramatic impact on my life and accused me of making it up. Shall I describe the smell of gunpowder, linseed oil and human brains that I can still recall instantly? Or the horrible sound that his wife made when she was talking to the cops? I had nightmares for months and went into counseling for a while, thanks in part to this. Honestly, if I was making it up it would have been a better story. 

I'm curious, if a woman came to the board and discussed her _rape_, would you accuse her of making it up to serve her agenda? Really? Or do I warrant special skepticism because I'm a male who disagrees with you?

The point was, coward or not, he was a man in pain who could, for whatever reason, not confide his secret self to his wife; and in the end, he chose death rather than continuing to suffer. He was a very proud man who didn't believe in divorce, loved his kids, had served his country in a Marine combat platoon, and had been a friend to everyone in the neighborhood. But he's a coward. Because he was a guy who failed to meet your expectations of what a man should be.

In other words, he was _just a man_. Dismissable. Disposable. Valueless without the context of a woman.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> In other words, he was _just a man_. Dismissable. Disposable. Valueless without the context of a woman.


This is absurb. I'm sorry Ian, I just do not relate to what you write at all.

A man stands on his own two feet.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Or he was a man suffering the consequences of serving and it had nothing to do with his wife, other than he could not share with her that pain, or transferred it to her (Not uncommon BTW, esp after WWII, Korea and Vietnam) Just saying.. might have nothing to do with being married. 

And it's Funny how if it is women who have been stifling men and their feeling all these year, why is it that if you go back through women in history, they will all elude to the fact that they craved to KNOW the man's feelings and would try all different approaches to find out or to figure it out themselves? Me thinks men have been doing it to themselves and each other all this time... women have always WANTED to know and to see..... Read letters of women throughout history...


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

You don't have a lot of native respect for men and their perspectives, nor do you extend them the same sorts of considerations that you do to another woman. You're quick to marginalize their opinions, impose your judgement on them, and dismiss them as inconsequential without a serious endeavor at understanding. And you do it all more or less automatically, to the point you don't even realize you're doing it.

Don't sweat it. Happens all the time. I've gotten used to being dismissed as inconsequential and pointless by women over the years. Men, in general, are not valued by women, in general, unless they are of direct use to them. Until there's a problem, that is. Or a nasty job to do. We're just not that important to y'all except as foils for your problems, obstacles to be overcome, and resources to be utilized. Goddess forbid we have an opinion that you disagree with. How could that matter?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I wasn't SUPPOSED to read it, it was evidence and our pal the dippity sherrif (who was only seven years older than me) let me and my brother read it (wink, wink) while he was taking the wife's statement, even though it was totally against policy to do so. But it wasn't much of a secret. Everyone knew about the details in it (though not through us) by the end of the week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I said if your story is to be believed, someone else called it fake. As for taking raw painful situations from our past, some that leave deep deep scars, you were the only one who ridiculed me for not hiring a lawyer to check out the contract, run a Dunn and Bradstreet on the producer and a criminal background check on the director at the age of 19. Dismissable, Disposable, Valueless.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> You don't have a lot of native respect for men and their perspectives, nor do you extend them the same sorts of considerations that you do to another woman. You're quick to marginalize their opinions, impose your judgement on them, and dismiss them as inconsequential without a serious endeavor at understanding. And you do it all more or less automatically, to the point you don't even realize you're doing it.
> 
> Don't sweat it. Happens all the time. I've gotten used to being dismissed as inconsequential and pointless by women over the years. Men, in general, are not valued by women, in general, unless they are of direct use to them. Until there's a problem, that is. Or a nasty job to do. We're just not that important to y'all except as foils for your problems, obstacles to be overcome, and resources to be utilized. Goddess forbid we have an opinion that you disagree with. How could that matter?


Anyone ever tell you you sound just like a jaded woman talking about men? DURRRR We ALL do it, it is about getting over it and seeing the big picture (frankly what I see most people here doing) MOST peopple.... 

SOme opinions ARE just silly, stoopid or so off the wall that folks will get nailed for it (sorry will laugh forever at the tampon addiction) and sometimes NO we don't want to hear another's opinion, we want to be allowed to be mad and jaded, SO F'N WHAT? Who shouldn't be allowed that.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> But Ian, there are many women here too who feel just as you have stated here. If women do speak up they get judged or condemned for how they feel as well. So I guess it can work both ways.


Sure it does. It's no better when it happens to the other side. The difference is that women are conditioned from birth in our society to communicate incessantly, to the point where a man in a relationship knows there's a problem because his SO was quiet for five whole minutes. Men, on the other hand, develop a quiet stoicism about their emotions that is a hallmark of his mastery of their emotions -- so when a man is eventually coaxed to speak his whole mind to a woman, he's not just "sharing and caring" he's going against his nature and making himself vulnerable in ways that are utterly foreign to him. And should he reveal what he really thinks, then the knee-jerk "God, you're just being such a guy!" the woman retorts sends him the message that _any further honest communication will be met with the same level of attention and consideration, i.e. none. _ 

The average woman will offer a dozen different (and sometimes conflicting) opinions on any subject at any time, unworried that staking a verbal position commits her to anything, emotionally or otherwise. When a man actually gets up the nerve to overcome his nature and try to make his voice heard, you can bet that there has been a profound amount of energy directed at that thought -- men don't share opinions and perspectives lightly. When that voice is met with a barrage of disdain and dismissal, especially by the women in his life, it cuts deep into his soul. And then he shuts up, knowing that he can never truly be honest with the women in his life because they can't get past their judgements to see his perspective -- so it's pointless.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

"The point was, coward or not, he was a man in pain who could, for whatever reason, not confide his secret self to his wife; and in the end, he chose death rather than continuing to suffer. He was a very proud man who didn't believe in divorce, loved his kids, had served his country in a Marine combat platoon, and had been a friend to everyone in the neighborhood. But he's a coward. Because he was a guy who failed to meet your expectations of what a man should be".

I can see that being true, and that is probably exactly what it was. BUT how does that relate to porn?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

michzz said:


> This is absurb. I'm sorry Ian, I just do not relate to what you write at all.
> 
> A man stands on his own two feet.


That's fine, I respect your decision to that opinion as a man. And I respect the perspective. "Standing on your own two feet" is a wonderful manly sort of perspective, but it's limiting and it puts us at a disadvantage. Women work well collectively, and in a relationship they seem to marginalize and eventually eliminate a man's own close friends, those guys to whom he might confide and communicate. It's part of the female control mechanism. Women don't hesitate to use their consensus to force a social issue at the expense of men, and they easily take refuge emotionally in their female peer group. But men are encouraged to be loners in a relationship, limited to a few very close friends that gosh, we just don't have a lot of time to hang out with because we're so busy and maybe next year's Superbowl?

This happens in part because men, in general, are not valued by our culture AS MEN. Regardless of our individual efforts to stand on our own two feet, collectively we're getting our feet knocked out from under us and our @$$ handed to us over and over, yet we persist in the idea that one man, alone, has the fortitude and strength to weather any storm if he's tough enough.

It's not all about toughness. Toughness is outstanding, but it isn't always wise. Women in our culture have set the rules when it comes to intergender relations, and the rules don't favor us. They've framed (and therefore controlled) the debate because we're off feeling sorry for ourselves collectively while pushing to realize ourselves individually, so we're basically getting picked off one by one, in terms of the discussion. When men insist as a culture that they are to be valued as men by women, and that insistence is treated with respect and not disdain, then we might make some progress. But this "every man for himself" thing is going to hurt us all.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

AgentD said:


> "The point was, coward or not, he was a man in pain who could, for whatever reason, not confide his secret self to his wife; and in the end, he chose death rather than continuing to suffer. He was a very proud man who didn't believe in divorce, loved his kids, had served his country in a Marine combat platoon, and had been a friend to everyone in the neighborhood. But he's a coward. Because he was a guy who failed to meet your expectations of what a man should be".
> 
> I can see that being true, and that is probably exactly what it was. BUT how does that relate to porn?


It relates to male sexuality, which is how I re-framed the debate towards the beginning of the thread.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

woodstock said:


> Anyone ever tell you you sound just like a jaded woman talking about men? DURRRR We ALL do it, it is about getting over it and seeing the big picture (frankly what I see most people here doing) MOST peopple....
> 
> SOme opinions ARE just silly, stoopid or so off the wall that folks will get nailed for it (sorry will laugh forever at the tampon addiction) and sometimes NO we don't want to hear another's opinion, we want to be allowed to be mad and jaded, SO F'N WHAT? Who shouldn't be allowed that.


That's kinda my point. When the shoe's on the other foot, it doesn't look as shiny, does it?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Just for the sake of argument, let's say the letter was real. And let's even accept that Ian read it at age 13.

I submit that no 13 year old could possibly interpret correctly what was going on in the mind of a suicidal person--man or woman based on a rambling letter.

Nobody could.

So to build a whole life theory on the relations of men and women on what that guy did is, well, too much for anyone to do.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

michzz said:


> Just for the sake of argument, let's say the letter was real. And let's even accept that Ian read it at age 13.
> 
> I submit that no 13 year old could possibly interpret correctly what was going on in the mind of a suicidal person--man or woman based on a rambling letter.
> 
> ...


And then take it even further flat out stating women want men dead is a shocking thing to say and it speaks volumes about what is going on inside of him. Projection.
I wish death on no one and the deepest and most honest relationship I have is with a man. Ian's comment is intentially inflamatory and flat out scary.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> That's kinda my point. When the shoe's on the other foot, it doesn't look as shiny, does it?


My point is that everybody wears the shoe from time to time, just that some of us.... don't change our shoes often?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Men and women have the same emotions... women express more of them... that's more biology/instinct whatever than it is anything else. 

And women are no really conflicting, we just see more of the big picture, all the connections and are capable of having multiple perspectives at the same time. Probably connected to us being better multi-taskers as well. 

And the reason a woman can't see the man's perspective may have nothing to do with her end, it may be, and correct me if I am wrong... men sometimes really suck and showing what is needed to SEE that perspective (waiting for us to read their mind and just "you know") Seriously, a man is gonna KNOW a woman's perspective because she will express it in enough ways that he can just pick one and figure it out. MEN barely pick one way to express then get ticked that we don't get it HAAAAAAA

Sure, we end up taking it for granted that you don't feel or that you don't have a valid viewpoint, probably because it takes so damn long for that to come out, we stop expecting it to ever happen!!!

OK, there's jaded for ya HAAAAAA


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> in a relationship they seem to marginalize and eventually eliminate a man's own close friends, those guys to whom he might confide and communicate. It's part of the female control mechanism.


I wouldn't call this particular instance a control mechanism. It's more of a woman's wish to be at least one of her guy's best friend. We are jealous.

Problem with that is that once a guy confides something to his woman, it _might, just might _bite him in the a$$ later on.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

michzz said:


> Just for the sake of argument, let's say the letter was real. And let's even accept that Ian read it at age 13.
> 
> I submit that no 13 year old could possibly interpret correctly what was going on in the mind of a suicidal person--man or woman based on a rambling letter.
> 
> ...


I didn't at the time, but I've had considerable time to reflect since then, with the benefit of a college education and professional training, too. When I read the letter at 13, all I could remember thinking at the time is "Man, this is f#&$^ up!", until the casual remarks started capturing my attention. Then I pondered. After pondering, I wondered. From wondering, questioning is just a stone's throw away, and the great thing about questioning is that it's contemplation-adjacent. 

And it wasn't an isolated incident. It was one in a great number of things that started me looking at the male-female equation with a greater degree of sophistication than most.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> I didn't at the time, but I've had considerable time to reflect since then, with the benefit of a college education and professional training, too. When I read the letter at 13, all I could remember thinking at the time is "Man, this is f#&$^ up!", until the casual remarks started capturing my attention. Then I pondered. After pondering, I wondered. From wondering, questioning is just a stone's throw away, and the great thing about questioning is that it's contemplation-adjacent.
> 
> And it wasn't an isolated incident. It was one in a great number of things that started me looking at the male-female equation with a greater degree of sophistication than most.


Exactly what kind of college education and professional training is it that results in your way of thinking about the male/female dynamic?

Seriously.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> And then take it even further flat out stating women want men dead is a shocking thing to say and it speaks volumes about what is going on inside of him. Projection.
> I wish death on no one and the deepest and most honest relationship I have is with a man. Ian's comment is intentially inflamatory and flat out scary.


And completely misinterpreted. 

I didn't say that you wished men dead. I said you treated them with lesser value than women in the manner in which you've presented your ideas, and that your attitude of institutional dismissal of men as men is a serious cultural problem on par with the male chauvinism the feminist movement worked so hard against. But then you go and prove my point by dismissing my perspective not because you find fault with the reasoning or facts, but because I, the man, must be flawed to have such strong ideas that go contrary to what you've come to expect a man should be.

And yes, it was shocking. Us writers have been known to use purposefully shocking, inciting, or emotional word choices in an effort to achieve a desired effect. I can't call it a win, since you didn't pick up on it, but I had to try.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> And yes, it was shocking. Us writers have been known to use purposefully shocking, inciting, or emotional word choices in an effort to achieve a desired effect. I can't call it a win, since you didn't pick up on it, but I had to try.


Maybe you didn't communicate clearly.

We writers have been known to strive for clarity.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> I wouldn't call this particular instance a control mechanism. It's more of a woman's wish to be at least one of her guy's best friend. We are jealous.
> 
> Problem with that is that once a guy confides something to his woman, it _might, just might _bite him in the a$$ later on.


Why yes, that is the problem. And that's the frequent result. Which is why a wise husband, despite his wife's assurances, is very, very careful about what he confides to his wife. 

And while I can respect the jealousy thing, the typical sociological pattern is for a wife to slowly pull her husband away from his friends. Count the number of close friends a guy has at his wedding. Then count how many he classifies as "close" at his 25th anniversary party. Whereas the wife's social circle typically expands slowly but surely over the years, the male social circle in marriage declines, sometimes extremely precipitously, until he becomes a mere social appendage of his wife without a reliable core group of friends independent of his wife's. 

It starts with "couples' nights" and asking your ruder friends not to attend social functions. Over time, the opportunities for hanging with your buds decline dramatically, unless they are married to one of your wife's friends. Even then, you know their loyalties are compromised.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

You quoted words by "Trenton" that I didn't write. Just an FYI.

Ian, I get that you are entitled to a point of view but your old man story is not a good example of a man falling from grace and the selfless sacrifice of men that leads to their own demise as you would like it to be. Rather it's a story of a selfish man who didn't think enough about himself to go after his dreams so he decided to kill himself and guilt his wife...died never being able to accept blame for the life he participated in and/or responsibility for his own desires.

I disagree with you that men are dismissed in society. Take a look around. You live in some weird world I can't relate to and I'm grateful the men in my life don't live with you. I've begun to feel that your viewpoints are ridiculous and prompted. I'm not participating anymore.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't dismiss men's opinions because they are men. I dismissed yours because it is based in fantasy. 
Their are plenty of men here whose opinion I value enormously. Nice Guy, Deejo, Scannerguard, Michzz and Conrad and I have had PM conversations with them ten fold and yet only 2 PM's with Trenton. If I didn't value a man's opinion as much as a woman's, this wouldn't be the case.
You keep thinking that because I disagree with your opinion that I therefore disagree with all men's opinions which is untrue.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Women work well collectively, and in a relationship they seem to marginalize and eventually eliminate a man's own close friends, those guys to whom he might confide and communicate. It's part of the female control mechanism.


Do they? Is this statistically proven or anecdotal evidence? This female control mechanism, I seem to be missing it. Can you tell me more about it?



> Women don't hesitate to use their consensus to force a social issue at the expense of men, and they easily take refuge emotionally in their female peer group. But men are encouraged to be loners in a relationship, limited to a few very close friends that gosh, we just don't have a lot of time to hang out with because we're so busy and maybe next year's Superbowl?


I am finding this interesting because not one bit applies to me or my OH. Would you say we weren't representative of the average man and woman in this case? Is this based on American findings?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

michzz said:


> Exactly what kind of college education and professional training is it that results in your way of thinking about the male/female dynamic?
> 
> Seriously.


Seriously, 

Without giving away details that would compromise my privacy/security, I've got a BA in Religious Studies, Minors in History and Women's Studies (all from a fairly prestigious university), postgraduate coursework in sociology and anthropology with a focus on gender roles in anthropology. Changed focus three times in four years, entering a couple of degree programs in various disciplines (Anthropology, Psychology, Biology) when I sold my first novel and it hit the NYTBS list. That ended my pursuit of formal education for its own sake. Met my wife right around that time.

From that point on I did a lot of gigs and took a lot of classes while I rode the success train, including a stint as a chef, a personnel consultant, Specialty Foods manager, and a whole lot of freelance and contract writing, both regular and technical. Got married. Had kids. Had problems. Fixed the problems but got re-interested in the male-female debate. Re-enrolled in an anthropology masters program (focus on evolutionary biology) and after eighteen months shifted towards marriage counseling. Sat in on over 80 hours of sessions as an observer. Helped co-author two books on various relationship-oriented topics. Wrote a book on seduction and pursuit and intergender sexual relations. Did a retrospective of the 1990s Men's Movement, as part of a much larger project on the effects of feminism in America. Got involved in some research as part of yet another collaborative effort with a sociologist, an anthropologist, a neuropsychiatrist, and a sex educator. Friend of a friend at the study mentioned he knew a guy who was leaving his job as a copywriter, and I got to be in the right place at the right time. 

So now I work in porn.

Does that help? There's probably more I'm leaving out, but that's the brief sketch of my resume.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> I don't dismiss men's opinions because they are men. I dismissed yours because it is based in fantasy.
> Their are plenty of men here whose opinion I value enormously. Nice Guy, Deejo, Scannerguard, Michzz and Conrad and I have had PM conversations with them ten fold and yet only 2 PM's with Trenton. If I didn't value a man's opinion as much as a woman's, this wouldn't be the case.
> You keep thinking that because I disagree with your opinion that I therefore disagree with all men's opinions which is untrue.


But your writing demonstrates a clear, if subtle, lack of respect for male issues and an unwillingness to attempt to understand men and male sexuality, and that's based in part (I would surmise, but could be wrong) on your participation in a culture that consistently sees men and male sexuality as a "problem" to be repaired. It's not whether or not you disagree with my opinion, it's _how_ you disagree with it that's telling. 

Let me ask you this: whose opinion would you trust more on the subject of female sexuality and sexual psychology, a man's or a woman's? Assuming all other factors were equal?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

That you can reel out verbiage at a high clip is not in doubt. That you absorbed anything useful in your educational training is.



IanIronwood said:


> Re-enrolled in an anthropology masters program (focus on evolutionary biology) and after eighteen months shifted towards marriage counseling.


Be honest. Why did you not complete a master's program in either of those fields?

I'm pretty sure that evolutionary biology and marriage counseling training usually does not result in what I have observed opined here.

I could see a cultural anthropologist attempting some kind of social manipulation study, but that would not be ethical nor would the data be useful given the methodology of trolling.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Good Grief! Pass the popcorn!


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

AgentD said:


> Good Grief! Pass the popcorn!


:smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Not sure about anyone else, but I don't buy the education of IAN, mo offense or anything, just don't see much of any of that reflected in your perspective or your insights... just sayin..... I am not uber educated on the subject but I know enough to know, ya know LMAO 


NOT BUYIN IT!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AgentD said:


> Good Grief! Pass the popcorn!


Pitchin Mitch is a writer as well and a heck of a fine man.


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> This happens in part because men, in general, are not valued by our culture AS MEN.


Imagine for a minute a culture that does value men - tell me what it looks like? 

What is the day like for a man who lives in a male valued culture?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Well, if you are talking money value... men are values (if i recall) approximately 17% more than women in THIS country so..... They still have the edge up, not sure what all this IF talk is about


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Pitchin Mitch is a writer as well and a heck of a fine man.


Not familiar with that one.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AgentD said:


> Not familiar with that one.


Michzz's porn name is Pitchin Mitch. Get with it, woman!


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Michzz's porn name is Pitchin Mitch. Get with it, woman!


Ahhh that's right I remember now!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

why not agree to disagree instead of bashing his credentials 


some of these women are proving him correct by bashing his credentials instead of making good sound arguments.


don't you see just agree to disagree......but no you have to resort to meaner and meaner things to try to get your thought process accepted.

personaly I think except in the small minorty most people are in the middle on this subject but it has been blown out of proprotion. and neither side wants to stop or it might mean they lost.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AgentD said:


> Ahhh that's right I remember now!


And now we brought the thread back to porn. Thanks Michzz!


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Gah, getting out of hand again. Ian, it would be best if you would bring forth your position more nuanced. I agree with you on a lot, but the examples and some things you say are sometimes outrageous. So much in fact, that I can't even disagree sometimes with the comments you get.

Look, I really feel for the man, and while he was a coward of sorts, he did sacrifice a lot and felt that he was not heard. This in itself has nothing to do with porn. But the fact that she dismissed his needs, including the sexual part is something some women do. While porn is not a part of this need, it has a possibility to be a (beneficial) part of male sexuality. 

What I feel Ian is trying to say (and failing to explain to the "other" side) is that some women dismiss a man's sexuality if it does not fit their view of male sexuality. It could be with the fact that he wants it too often, withholding sex (as a reward or punishment) or something else. If a man likes porn, but does not act wrongly on it, it is automatically bad. Seems to be the consensus of some on this forum. If a man looks at other women, be it at a bar or on a screen, it is despicable. Now, I'm not saying he should or has all the rights to do it Nor that I ogle other women. The point is that even if I explain it here, I don't hear anything from the opposing side understanding what I said or even saying:"Well, ok, it maybe works for you, but I still don't agree.". Only that it is wrong and I have been corrupted.

And one cannot say that I don't understand you gals. I highly value your opinion and if a woman ever said she didn't feel comfortable and did not want to have me watch, I would stop. But only after explaining why I do.

I don't know if what I said is correct and I interpreted him wrong, but this is what I got from distilling his posts to their basis.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

"is that some women dismiss a man's sexuality if it does not fit their view of male sexuality."

It can also be said for some men as well. They too can dismiss how a woman feels about sexuality and how it doesn't fit into their view. So IMO, I would say it can work both ways, Matters not who dismisses it more blah blah. Its just a arguement/debate whatever you want to call it, going around in circles, like a dog chasing its tail.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

This thing still going. Just pulled myself out of a 3 porn binge. Anyone have any cliffs?


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

AgentD said:


> "is that some women dismiss a man's sexuality if it does not fit their view of male sexuality."
> 
> It can also be said for some men as well. They too can dismiss how a woman feels about sexuality and how it doesn't fit into their view. So IMO, I would say it can work both ways, Matters not who dismisses it more blah blah. Its just a arguement/debate whatever you want to call it, going around in circles, like a dog chasing its tail.


Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Seriously. I completely abhor men who do this. If anything, I feel incredible anger at men who mistreat women. More than at women who mistreat men. What is being debated here is if women think man viewing porn is bad. If it was the other way around about toys, I'd agree as well. Let a woman do what she has to do, who cares. It is a foreign penis and it does some things a single man never could. Who am I to say a woman should not have the pleasure she wants? Any man who is threatened by the woman's use of toys while she still have (great) sex with him should not whine.

If she does ignore him. Then it's another problem all together and it is not because of the toys that she isn't having sex. Could be anything from not being good in bed to not having her needs met. Same for a man.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Wonder where Deejo is with his Monty Python's Argument Clinic clip?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

chillymorn said:


> why not agree to disagree instead of bashing his credentials


I'll give ya that. However, if someone points to their credentials as a proof of their reasoning, then do you not think it reasonable to pick at both the reasoning and the credentials?

I won't further, I think I made my point.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ok, like I told Ian many posts ago, we agree to disagree. We all have different takes on things. That's what makes us interesting!


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Why yes, that is the problem. And that's the frequent result. Which is why a wise husband, despite his wife's assurances, is very, very careful about what he confides to his wife.
> 
> And while I can respect the jealousy thing, the typical sociological pattern is for a wife to slowly pull her husband away from his friends. Count the number of close friends a guy has at his wedding. Then count how many he classifies as "close" at his 25th anniversary party. Whereas the wife's social circle typically expands slowly but surely over the years, the male social circle in marriage declines, sometimes extremely precipitously, until he becomes a mere social appendage of his wife without a reliable core group of friends independent of his wife's.
> 
> It starts with "couples' nights" and asking your ruder friends not to attend social functions. Over time, the opportunities for hanging with your buds decline dramatically, unless they are married to one of your wife's friends. Even then, you know their loyalties are compromised.


Wouldn't that be a vicious circle thing, though?

If a man doesn't confide (aka treat her as one of his best friends), she gets jealous/territorial and as a result eliminates her "competition" one by one over the years.

If a man confides though... 

I don't know whether men are hesitant to speak their hearts out to their women by nature, or whether it's a 'once bitten twice shy' thing (not necessarily bitten by the woman they are currently with) ?

Even if a woman values his willingness to confide to her and would bite her tongue when in a fight an opportunity arises to use the information from him against him, it takes years to "tame" him, so to speak.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Ok, I think we can all agree to disagree here! So with that being said, who wants pizza?!


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

AgentD said:


> Ok, I think we can all agree to disagree here! So with that being said, who wants pizza?!





Brennan said:


> Ok, like I told Ian many posts ago, we agree to disagree. We all have different takes on things. That's what makes us interesting!


Yes, and that is the best answer possible here. A heartfelt agree to disagree. So, 4 cheese or tuna for me.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Yes, and that is the best answer possible here. A heartfelt agree to disagree. So, 4 cheese or tuna for me.


tuna pizza? :scratchhead:


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Even if a woman values his willingness to confide to her and would bite her tongue when in a fight an opportunity arises to use the information from him against him, it takes years to "tame" him, so to speak.


Thankfully for my girl, I came pre-tamed by 4 wonderful women


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

AgentD said:


> tuna pizza? :scratchhead:


What.... Tuna is one of the best man. Never heard of it? It's a real Italian pizza you know.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Draguna said:


> What.... Tuna is one of the best man. Never heard of it? It's a real Italian pizza you know.


I love tuna but never tried on pizza or ever even thought of it. I will now though. I will deffo try! :smthumbup:


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

tobio said:


> Do they? Is this statistically proven or anecdotal evidence? This female control mechanism, I seem to be missing it. Can you tell me more about it?


Sure, if you don't mind me not quoting specific sources because, basically, I'm lazy and most of that is on my home computer anyway.

It's anthropology, although sociological observations concur with the anthropologists. Briefly put, women and men have two separate sets of social structures, plus the third of the group social structure as a whole. The most basic unit of this available for study, enough to be considered a kind of anthropological "control", is the hunter/gatherer tribal unit (they don't call 'em "primitive" anymore, 'cause that's prejudicial). Nearly all human culture is derivative of customs and patterns established during the 100,000 years we were hunter-gatherers, so evaluating h-g tribes can give us some useful insight on the most basic aspects of male/female interactions.

In most tribal situations there is a clear division of labor between men and women. In general (and there are clear exceptions) men hunt/fish, while women gather/cultivate. As a response to this division of labor there almost inevitably form "societies" segregated by gender in the tribe, a Hunters or Warriors Society and a Woman's Society, usually invested with lots of cultic and ritual significance. In general, the two work together to manage the affairs of the tribe. And in general, the culture tends to identify the role of women to be within and immediately around the protected village enclosure, whereas men, who had to leave the village to provide for the tribe, were identified with the exterior of the village -- the dangerous place where the saber tooths prowled, or whatever the local predator was.

Looking at tribal societies, you can establish some pretty consistent patterns, despite a disparity in economy. A big one for anthropologists is the process of seduction, pursuit, and mating, partially because of the innate fascination for the topic and partially because anthropological texts that deal with sex are more popular than those that don't. And while tribal societies have a plethora of wacky marriage and inheritance customs, the interpersonal relationships between people in roughly defined roles is pretty consistent. Men tend to act a certain way, all things being equal, and so do women. 

In nearly every tribal society the women, not the men, naturally try to control the sexual culture. The list of taboos and sexual restrictions, some of which make no sense outside of their cultural context, almost always arise from within the Women's Society. Warrior or Hunter societies usually don't have a lot of rules about sex, apart from some pro-forma homophobia (and even that has a proper cultural outlet in many tribes). Their rules and rituals and cults revolve around death, defense, honor, and spirit -- and, of course, bringing home the bacon. In tribal societies women and men co-manage the mating and courtship along pre-established patterns designed (at least theoretically) to avoid intermarriage between closely related pairs, which is a real possibility in a group less than 100 unlikely to travel more than 50 miles in a generation. But the women are almost always in control of the rules of engagement about sexuality.

So in general women control the sex and sustain the village in most cultures, whereas men control the primary means of protein (women actually gather more over-all foodstuffs, but the male contribution of high protein sources is vital) and defend the village from harm. But the organization of the Women's Societies is very different than that of the Men's societies, and there's no doubt why most tribes keep these gatherings ritually secret from the Other Side. If you analyze mating patterns in a tribe over, say, three or four generations, you start to see that the women in leadership positions within the Women's Society, in managing the mating affairs of the tribe and setting sexual policy, tend to arrange things to their personal advantage (or that of their immediate offspring) while maintaining the appearance of working on behalf of all women in the tribe equally. 

But women in tribal societies don't have direct control over the administration of the tribe as a whole, as a rule. Even in matrifocal societies it is still almost exclusively a male figure (or figurehead) that stands up and looks important and tells people what to do. Often this is the husband, brother or son of the chief of the Woman's Society, but it is very rare for a Woman's Society to have much de facto control over administration. Instead, the chief woman of the society uses more subtle tools, particularly public shame and praise, or the threat of shame, gossip, accusations, and whispering campaigns to enforce her rule as leader of the consensus. (I know that sounds like a contradiction, but it's not). She will also not hesitate to use selective enforcement of the rules and her position to achieve her personal goals, especially the delineation of Status within the society (and therefore the tribe) even though it's necessary that she maintain the appearance of impartiality in order to keep the other women in line. An undisciplined Women's Society is a disaster for the tribe.

A woman in that role usually has two main goals, in terms of interpersonal power: establishing leverage or an alliance with a powerful male for protection, security, status, and to maintain her position; and eliminating competition for her and her offspring. To that end she can manipulate the status rules, she can identify potential challengers for her position and preemptively punish them to keep them from overtaking her, she can break up alliances that she sees as a threat, etc. etc. You take out the competition, maintain discipline, and work to further your own goals while you protect and sustain the tribe. 

Think Alexis Carrington in a fur loincloth. "Soft Power" is her thing. She doesn't have the authority to decree decisions that affect the whole tribe, the way the Hunters Society can, but she is listened to with great respect and consulted on anything major, and she will use her position to continue to support her chosen ally (or betray and replace him, if that suits her purposes better) to advance her own cause. That includes putting pressure on the junior members of the society to reward or punish their men on behalf of the society as a whole -- a way of kind of presenting a united front, only focused on individual males and in private, not usually out in public. The Chief Woman establishes status, enforces discipline, and tries to maintain control over her male ally.

And it's in her best interest to maintain discipline over sex and mating in the village, because if one of the women is weak and doesn't, say, refrain from sex with her husband as she's been instructed to, she endangers that united front and puts everyone's status in danger. She does this to maintain her power and the power of the Society in relation to the Warrior's Society. 

Long after we left our hunter-gathering days behind, the patterns that were set down for 100,000 years remained. Through the Neolithic and Bronze Age, during the profound cultural shift that took place concurrent with a switch to an agricultural economy, much of the system remained intact with one big difference: unlike hunter-gatherer societies that tend to be nomadic, able to leave an area that's dangerous or lacking in resources, in agricultural societies you were tied to the land. The ownership and right to cultivate arable land pretty much invents the idea of "property" in the meaningful sense.

Only, now that you have something of real lasting value, who gets it when you die? We're not talking about splitting up dad's trophies, we're talking a real field where wheat grows and feeds everyone you know. In tribal societies you inherit your ancestors' totems, honor, trophies, weapons, tools, etc. but that's it. With land ownership inheritance starts to actually mean something. And one thing it meant was that the land passed to your descendants. That enshrined the concept of marriage as we know it today as an institution. It made women the de facto tokens of land ownership, put men in far unequal positions of power within the culture, and eventually reduced the status of women in relation to men to chattel. 

So why is all of this relevant? Because, even in our industrialized society, those essential patterns behavior that survived into agriculturalist and through into industrialization and beyond are still at work. As an anthropologist or a sociologist you can get beyond the details and differences of any observed human culture and see them in terms of competing and complimentary power centers. And while the means may have changed, we're all still essentially doing the same thing we did 50,000 years ago. Strip away the distractions, and we stubbornly continue to act the same way.

Only in modern times, the "women's societies" are a lot less formal; indeed, most women automatically assume the "Chief Woman" role in the absence of a stronger contender,and then hunker down to pursue her two main goals: securing and controlling her male ally (husband) and eliminating competition for herself and her offspring.

This manifests primarily in the relationship she has with her husband. In establishing territorial control over him, in our society she has the asset of Marriage, which promises his fidelity and support (it used to be in exchange for sex and resources, but that got screwed up) even if it doesn't ensure it. That is, it offers her significant protection against her male ally wandering off with another woman. But that's not usually where it stops: not just women, but any outside interest that isn't focused on her and her offspring is viewed with suspicion, and that includes hubby's drinking buddies, the hot secretary in the office across from him, and sporting events.

Of course eliminating the women is first and easiest -- you only hang out in groups with other couples, so there are fewer unattached females around. Then you vie for position withing that group of other couples and eventually form a consensus among the women (spoken or unspoken) around the sexual rules for the group. And before you know it, you have the unofficial Women's Society going again, 2011 style. 

But then you have to eliminate, or at least decrease his loyalty, to his friends. While they can prove useful, and an occasional distraction, if they keep focus away from you for any significant time, they are a threat. If you're a woman with a shred of the Hera vibe you are going to want him to be completely loyal to you, not his buddies. And the more time he spends with them, the closer the bond and the more difficult it is to exercise influence over him. So you start picking them off one by one, either by fixing them up with your girlfriends or discouraging your husband from seeing them altogether, usually adding a little juicy gossip that you preface with your displeasure. That way if he rises to their defense, thus displaying his loyalty to them, he knows in advance what your reaction will be. Something like:

"I know you like Barney, and he's a . . . nice guy. But Janet said she saw him coming out of an adult video store -- isn't that terrible? He's not a bad looking guy, but he has to resort to that kind of crap! Honestly, he just needs the right woman to straighten him out . . ."

Married dudes, sound familiar?

Anyway, believe it or not that's the short version. 



tobio said:


> I am finding this interesting because not one bit applies to me or my OH. Would you say we weren't representative of the average man and woman in this case? Is this based on American findings?



Of course, there is a wide variety in individuals and individual couples. I'm speaking about entire cultures, here, so using broad generalities is apt. I mean, I wasn't a slobbering chauvinist sexist pig when I was 16 (quite the contrary) but that didn't stop me from being painted with that broad brush. there are plenty of couples who manage to move past this sort of thing, and a lot depends on the family situation of the principals, too. 

And you might consider looking at your relationship closely, in those terms, to see if you can spot the vestiges of the female control instinct manifest from time to time. If you're lucky enough to avoid it, it's easy enough to see in the people around you and the popular culture at large.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

I haven't commented on this thread lately. I figured its not going to matter anyway. However, I have been following it some, and I must say for some reason I feel quite overwhelmed after reading it all. Almost tired and drained! Anyway, I hope everyone can come to some sort of understanding on it all.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

trey69 said:


> I haven't commented on this thread lately. I figured its not going to matter anyway. However, I have been following it some, and I must say for some reason I feel quite overwhelmed after reading it all. Almost tired and drained! Anyway, I hope everyone can come to some sort of understanding on it all.


We did, we agree to disagree.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Gah, getting out of hand again. Ian, it would be best if you would bring forth your position more nuanced. I agree with you on a lot, but the examples and some things you say are sometimes outrageous. So much in fact, that I can't even disagree sometimes with the comments you get.
> 
> Look, I really feel for the man, and while he was a coward of sorts, he did sacrifice a lot and felt that he was not heard. This in itself has nothing to do with porn. But the fact that she dismissed his needs, including the sexual part is something some women do. While porn is not a part of this need, it has a possibility to be a (beneficial) part of male sexuality.
> 
> ...


Let me put it this way: I'm not trying to convince women, at this point. Women aren't going to listen. Not voluntarily. Oh, you get a few like Trent who have a decently open mind, but for the most part they are heavily invested in the cultural status quo that rewards them for NOT trying to understand male sexuality. The ladies who have debated with me have provided me with excellent research and an admirable foil, allowing me to bring up stuff on the forum that I didn't think I'd have a chance to cover.

My arguments -- and yes, my occasional hyperbole -- are designed to give thought to the _men_ who read it. While they (like you) may not agree with everything I say, based on the volume of the PMs I've been getting, I'm not the only one who feels that men need to do a better job at being men and quit worrying about what women are going to think about that -- and "being better men" doesn't mean "being more acceptable to women".

But I appreciate your support.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Brennan said:


> We did, we agree to disagree.


Well, it looks like maybe not everybody! :lol:


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

And I zoned out. I don't like saying this on the internet, but TL;DR


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Wouldn't that be a vicious circle thing, though?
> 
> If a man doesn't confide (aka treat her as one of his best friends), she gets jealous/territorial and as a result eliminates her "competition" one by one over the years.
> 
> ...


You've hit upon it exactly. Most women, particularly unwise young women in the early years of a marriage, can't help but use that kind of sensitive information against him -- and once she does, it really WILL take years for him to really trust her and bring her back into his emotional inner-circle. Indeed, if she does it viscously or frequently enough, he'll quit talking all together.

That's why my wife and I have #4 of our Rules of Engagement for fighting: No Kidney Punches. In the middle of an argument you do NOT have recourse to using sensitive information about vulnerabilities against the other person unless it is germane to that specific argument.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Thankfully for my girl, I came pre-tamed by 4 wonderful women


So you know how to keep your mouth shut then, right?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> Sure, if you don't mind me not quoting specific sources because, basically, I'm lazy and most of that is on my home computer anyway.
> 
> It's anthropology, although sociological observations concur with the anthropologists. Briefly put, women and men have two separate sets of social structures, plus the third of the group social structure as a whole. The most basic unit of this available for study, enough to be considered a kind of anthropological "control", is the hunter/gatherer tribal unit (they don't call 'em "primitive" anymore, 'cause that's prejudicial). Nearly all human culture is derivative of customs and patterns established during the 100,000 years we were hunter-gatherers, so evaluating h-g tribes can give us some useful insight on the most basic aspects of male/female interactions.
> Actually, the male/female dichotomy was created as we know it know by the sedentary society which in turn built the patriarchal society, but hey....
> ...


Geez I can't even continue to go through this.. to long, don't know where you went to school but..... wow, missing a LOT... maybe just narrow sources? Not sure, and I get the feeling to even suggest some reading I will be shot down, but just one, which focuses directly on the dichotomy of men and women and the affects of becoming sedentary on gender roles read Nisa on the Kung San


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> So you know how to keep your mouth shut then, right?


Nah, not that. Very vocal about what I think. She isn't as much. I meant that I understand women to a degree. I tend to relate more to women on most stuff. Become friends with them easier as I do find how some men view women off putting. 

Because of this, I comprehend both sides most of the time. Something I've had to do all my life. Mediate. Dad being a sailor and gone months at a time and my mom and sisters at home. He is someone who does not know well how to talk to women. My mom and sisters never really had a man see how men are. I was somewhat both. Always had to translate because both didn't understand each other.

So she hadn't need to teach me anything about understanding her or anything like that. I had to teach her how to understand me. Was done easily, as I could explain all that stuff in terms she understood.

Likewise, I comprehend the women's positions here. I just wanted to understand it by hearing why not.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Is this the longest thread in the history of TAM? Any mods want to weigh in?
Ceiling cat, you watching?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

looks like ian there might have the longest single post! I went cross eyed about half way through... WAY LONG DUDE!!!!! HAHA


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## Drayvius (Nov 30, 2010)

YouTube - The Internet Is For Porn

Your argument is now invalid.

(PS. This was meant to give everyone a laugh. If you honestly are offended.......reconsider your priorities in life.)


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Drayvius said:


> YouTube - The Internet Is For Porn
> 
> Your argument is now invalid.
> 
> (PS. This was meant to give everyone a laugh. If you honestly are offended.......reconsider your priorities in life.)


THAT was a fantastic show btw!!!! :smthumbup:
Hilarious as all get out.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Drayvius said:


> YouTube - The Internet Is For Porn
> 
> Your argument is now invalid.
> 
> (PS. This was meant to give everyone a laugh. If you honestly are offended.......reconsider your priorities in life.)


Will never look at cookie monster quite the same (would have expected it from Oscar but cookie monster?)


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> But your writing demonstrates a clear, if subtle, lack of respect for male issues and an unwillingness to attempt to understand men and male sexuality, and that's based in part (I would surmise, but could be wrong) on your participation in a culture that consistently sees men and male sexuality as a "problem" to be repaired. It's not whether or not you disagree with my opinion, it's _how_ you disagree with it that's telling.


You are very good at twisting things to suit you Mr IronWood. And dismissing everything written about the harms of porn.

Basically what you are saying is that men need to view porn, they cannot be expected to treat women with respect, and they will do anything for an orgasm even completely ignore the suffering of other people just because they have a vagina. You make women's suffering invisible and insist that men's sexual needs must prevail over everything else.

Obviously there is evidence and proof that this is true, and women suffer everyday at the hands of men. Women are trafficed, raped, sold and abused. But I believe that there are good men who do care about women enough that they wouldn't put porn first and humanity last.

It's all about priorities I guess and I can see where yours lie. Promoting a revolting industry that benafits you.



> Let me ask you this: whose opinion would you trust more on the subject of female sexuality and sexual psychology, a man's or a woman's? Assuming all other factors were equal?


How can a man who is heavily invested in something and obviously has no real interest in anything but serving his own interest, objectively comment on the "need":rofl: for porn in his life. How can a man who would gloss over the horrific treatment of women, and who would even watch porn to the detriment of his sex life and relationship tell anyone what male sexuality is.


Your version is defined by social norms and porn. You have no idea what real and free male sexuality is. 
*
Not only that but studies on male sexuality done by men show that porn is bad. Men in studies on their sexuality and porn admit that porn changes the way they view sex and women. These men have shown in studies that it lowers their empathy for women. But i guess it's easy to ignore the men who's comments on their own sexuality don't fit with your view huh?*

I personally am open to hearing about female sexuality from anyone who has studied it.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> I'm just courious in the story about how you were made to do porn with your controling boyfriend were you a coward also
> 
> you indicate that your poor family life and low selfesteam were factors. could it not be a factor in that mans case. But because men are supost to be strong and are thought of as whimpy if they express that.


The difference is we live in a patriarchy, this is a fact. Men have better life chances from the get go. Men and women do not have the same opportunities in life and women are not treated the same as men. This thread is evidence of that.



> again a double standard if a woman expresses that low selfesteem made her make bad choices then she get empathy but if a man dose the same he get an eye roll and is told to man up.some women want special rights not equal rights.


There is a big difference between a young girl, being influenced or forced to do things and an old man who decided to kill himself, nobody was telling the man to kill himself and if they were they would be in this day and age held accountable. It is illegal to encourage or assist someone to suicide. 

Just as anyone who influences or forces young people into porn is also to blame.




> Men and women are different and In my mind are what make it work what a women brings to the table is there loving nature and men are the security but in our present world the lines are blured. and some some women seem to want there cake and eat it too


And so do men.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> But then you have to eliminate, or at least decrease his loyalty, to his friends. While they can prove useful, and an occasional distraction, if they keep focus away from you for any significant time, they are a threat. If you're a woman with a shred of the Hera vibe you are going to want him to be completely loyal to you, not his buddies. And the more time he spends with them, the closer the bond and the more difficult it is to exercise influence over him. So you start picking them off one by one, either by fixing them up with your girlfriends or discouraging your husband from seeing them altogether, usually adding a little juicy gossip that you preface with your displeasure.



Well.. I will still maintain it's not about control.

A modern woman wants to be her man's best friend. And you are right, any one of his buddies has influence over him to a certain degree. His male friends certainly do not seek to exercise influence over him, but that doesn't mean that influence doesn't exist there somewhere.

Now a man will not perceive the said influence from another man as a form of control, won't he.

Point is, we women want to be in the loop. When we are not (justifiably or unjustifiably so), we lash out. We limit the circle of people he can confide in, hoping that when we are the only ones left, he will have no other choice but to confide in us. Unfortunately that's not the case. 

But it's not about control. It's about our emotional need for him to view us in the similar way he views his friends, that is as someone he will feel safe to confide in, as someone he will _want _to confide in.

We see this as his emotional need, and we can't understand why he can't fulfill that emotional need of his with us too.

(This is how I understand it. Anyone feel free to chime in. I certainly do not want to speak for all women.)


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Well.. I will still maintain it's not about control.
> 
> A modern woman wants to be her man's best friend. And you are right, any one of his buddies has influence over him to a certain degree. His male friends certainly do not seek to exercise influence over him, but that doesn't mean that influence doesn't exist there somewhere.
> 
> ...


Wow, go on. this discussion between you two is interesting.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Syrum, to you the research you provided us makes sense. To me it doesn't because unfortunately it is tinged with unscientific religious bias.

I am curious - what is a real and free male sexuality according to you?


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Syrum, to you the research you provided us makes sense. To me it doesn't because unfortunately it is tinged with unscientific religious bias.
> 
> I am curious - what is a real and free male sexuality according to you?


:iagree: Feel the same way Reaching. Would like an answer to that as well.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

I love how you ignored almost all of my points, obviously they are difficult for you to address.



IanIronwood said:


> That's the thing: if you haven't realized the connection by now, you probably never will. And that's sad.


No what is sad is that you are grasping at straws. You are relating a mans suicide to a porn thread. And there is no connection between the two. 




> Just one of the many ways that people on one side or another of the gender divide can't manage to garner the empathy and understanding necessary to appreciate what's going on across the divide.


I do have empathy for that man, and so does everyone else, but it still has nothing to do with porn. If you want to take that suicide and start talking about the need for men and women to communicate and have sexual intimacy then go ahead. Again what is going on across the divide has nothing to do with that mans suicide relating to porn. it doesn't fit and it's weird that you are trying to make it to justify something you haven't even been clear on.

Are you perhaps saying that if men don't watch porn they will suicide?:rofl:




> At this point I don't think you're going to be able to make that leap and understand that IT'S ALL RELATED. Male sexuality is a deeply personal thing, and while you're happy to simplistically dismiss porn as "bad for women" without appreciating how it could be "good for men", you're showing as much empathy as the men who shake their heads and roll their eyes when a woman has a serious issue and say "Must be that time of the month".


No you are simplifying the matter and trying to justify treatment of women, under the idea that men need porn, when it is a fact that they do not.

I absolutely agree that sexual connectedness and emotional connectedness are important to both men and women to varying degree and something needs to be done to help bring men and women together.

The fix is not porn, it makes things worse not better. that is a fact.


> In other words, you aren't taking it seriously. But, luckily, the men are. You'd be very surprised at the number of private messages I've gotten in support. And while that might not jive with what YOUR ideal of manhood, the fact is that those of us who are defining our own sexuality have learned a lot from the discussion. Just not the things you wanted us to learn.


I take the abuse and degradation of women seriously. Do you?

Again with the private message thing.:rofl:

It is a laugh that you seriously as someone who has supposedly studied sociology, believes that men watching porn are in any defining their sexuality. That just does not make one bit of sense, but i think you know that.




> The misandronous tone of the discussion is pretty clear, and I've choked on the number of sentences that, if you reverse the genders, would be pounced on as "misogynist". There is a lack of basic respect for our perspective among many of the women here, to the point where one wonders why make the effort at all, when accepting the mutually destructive _status quo_ is so easy. I guess some things are just too deeply ingrained in our culture to be easily discussed without some profound sharing of perspective.


Misandry, that is a laugh, when the facts are people in the porn industry treat women like poop, and care about $$$. They do not care about relationships, love, connectedness, intimacy and closeness, In fact if you aren't having sex, are having bad sex or are addicted to porn, this makes them happy, because it helps line their pockets. 

The industry has nothing to gain by men realising that porn harms them and helps ruin sex lives and relationships.


> So you can't see the connection between my story and porn. Let me try to simplify it as much as possible, stripped of all the nuances and complexities: if you gave the wife a choice between a pornofied live husband or a "pure" dead one, which do you think she'd choose?


Oh so women should be just so grateful to have a man that it doesn't matter how he treats women, views or uses them. Pffft.

Well that isn't a real choice. That's like asking me would I prefer to get life in jail or the death penalty. Umm how about freedom please?

P.S it wasn't complex it just doesn't work.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Syrum, to you the research you provided us makes sense. To me it doesn't because unfortunately it is tinged with unscientific religious bias.
> 
> I am curious - what is a real and free male sexuality according to you?


Untrue, the book I posted a link to about how the brain works and how porn changes the brain had no hint of religion involved, not that I could see. Much of the material i posted in not religious based opposition to porn, it's human rights or scientific oppostion to porn and it makes sense.

But where is any one elses proof on the harmlesness of porn?

And even if something is religious based it doesn't make the suffering of real women any less. it doesn't change the words out of their mouths.



> Male Porn Stars says Drugs are a Problem
> “Christian Sings the Blues” Blog:
> January 28, 2008
> Drugs are a major, major problem in my business. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to
> ...


From the blog of a male porn star.

and Jenna Jameson herself stated in her book.


> 2.In order to really succeed, you will likely have to get painful breast implants.
> 
> “One of the most frustrating things about the film work was that the producers never wanted to put me on box covers. They all said my breasts were too small. My boobs were certainly big enough for all the men who stared at them every time I left the house. But they weren’t big enough by porn standards. Just like at the Crazy Horse (strip club), the girls with the monster silicone got all the attention.” (Pg. 160)





> “While I was waiting for my first sex scene, my co-star, a gentleman I had never met before named Arnold Biltmore, sat next to me. He had a soft, pasty body; a porous, greasy complexion; and a kindergarten haircut, parted in the middle and combed to either side. Nothing about Arnold Biltmore turned me on. And in ten minutes I was supposed to have sex with him. When our scene started, he tried to kiss me. I turned my head away from the camera, so that no one could see me grimace…. As my head kept bumping into his stomach while I gave him head, all I could think was, ‘What the hell am I doing here? This is disgusting.’ A bead of sweat on Arnold’s forehead…swelled and grew until it turned into a bubble, and then slowly pried itself free of his forehead…. When it smacked me between the eye, it flipped a switch in my head. ‘I’m done,’ I though. ‘I can’t do this anymore.’” (pg. 161-162.)





> “Most girls get their first experience in gonzo films - in which they’re taken to a crappy studio apartment in Mission Hills and penetrated in every hole possible by some abusive ******* who thinks her name is *****. And these girls, some of whom have the potential to become major stars in the industry, go home afterward and pledge never to do it again because it was such a terrible experience.” (Pg. 132)
> 
> “In a worst-case scenario, a gonzo director will take a girl to a hotel room and have their friends shoot a cheap scene in which she is humiliated in every orifice possible. She walks home with three thousand dollars, bowed legs, and a terrible impression of the industry. It’ll be her first and last movie, and she’ll regret it – to her dying day.” (Pg. 325)
> 
> ...





> “And slowly they (the pictures) began to appear: on the cover of Hustler; and then Cherry, and then High Society. All three were on the stands with me on the cover. I was the **** of the month. Of course none of them mentioned Jenna Jameson. They called me Shelly or Daisy or Missy. And, though the editors had never spoken a word to me, they featured interviews in which I discussed how inordinately horny I was, how much I like sex with anonymous strangers, and how I fantasized about inviting my girlfriends over for threesomes with my boyfriend.” (Pgs. 121-122.)





> 10. You sometimes have to lie on the job (or be quiet) in order to “maintain the fantasy” for men or your image.
> 
> “Instantly the grilling started. He (Howard Stern) seemed determined to know what had a made a girl like me become a porn star. I told him I loved. Sex. I told him I loved the attention. But it wasn’t enough for him. He kept saying that something didn’t compute. He asked if I had a screwed-up childhood, and I said no. He asked if my parents had been strict, and I said no. He asked if my dad and I still talked, and I said we did. He asked if my mom minded what I was doing, and I said no. I had decided in advance that it was better not to discuss her death on the air. I didn’t think I could handle it.” (Pg. 391)
> 
> ...


Sounds so damn good. 

I don't believe free sexuality would be influenced by heavily religion (as it used to) and certainly not by porn. It would be individuals discovering on their own what they enjoyed, without the overwhelming influenced by a media filled pornified society, telling us what to like and not like.


http://antipornographyactivist.blogspot.com/2007/07/jenna-jamesons-twenty-five-good-reasons.html


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Which book? Did I miss a post?

Salvomag article - Salvo, Christian magazine

The Effects of Pornography on Individuals, Marriage, Family and Community (pdf) - Family Research Council, a Christian group


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Oooh you mean the article that features the book at theage.com? Completely missed that (must have been really zonked out that day).

OK I found excerpts of the book available for free at Google Books - if someone is interested, here's the link


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Those all were really interesting articles. Thanks for sharing, they were very helpful!


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Ceiling cat, you watching?












Non-Stop for a week now!


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> Non-Stop for a week now!



Have to laugh as JUST as I was sitting down to open the computer, had to stop and chase my cat out of my coffee HAAAA then I open up and LOOK there she is again!!!! :lol:

OK, sorry for the interruption but the timing from my side HAD to be pointed out HAAAA


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> Non-Stop for a week now!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I am just looking for funny things to laugh................................


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Well.. I will still maintain it's not about control.
> 
> A modern woman wants to be her man's best friend. And you are right, any one of his buddies has influence over him to a certain degree. His male friends certainly do not seek to exercise influence over him, but that doesn't mean that influence doesn't exist there somewhere.
> 
> ...



Thank you. That was a cogent, reasonable, and well-spoken argument that showed me a perspective that I wasn't fully appreciating. And while I'm not going to recant my position, I do concede that this is a matter of perception that shifts based on your gender . . . and your ability to smoothly handle your interpersonal affairs. 

It's one of those things where we see the same thing in two different ways, but naturally expect that the other side agrees with our perspective, more or less, and act on that belief. And that's where the friction occurs, that misunderstanding. I've seen it happen in counseling sessions, where a husband accuses a wife of being against his friends, essentially in an effort to deprive him of an independent support network. The wife sees what she's doing as a "civilizing" measure, a means of increasing their pair-bond while removing unpleasant influences from her husband's life. Since a lot of the time his friends are associated with pre-marriage behavior, he interprets her well-meaning but (let's admit it) controlling behavior as an attack on the period in his life when he felt he was at the peak of masculinity, and resent it. 

I can see your point about a woman's intentions, and I'm guessing that in most good relationships there's enough understanding, communication and compromise to recognize these perspectives for what they are. But in most relationships where this is an issue, where the lack of good communication skills and unwililngness to compromise or attempt to understand, I can see where this would get out of hand.

From the man's perspective his friends are his support network, which women should innate understand, but men support each other differently than women do. It's easy for women to misinterpret emotional man-on-man action because they don't understand the way guys relate to other guys. Heck, many view any gathering of more than two unattended males with suspicion. A man's good friends are his respite from you, even though he loves you dearly and respects you and wants to spend the rest of his life with you. He needs that ability to escape from you, to retreat and contemplate, lick his wounds, and gain perspective. 

And it kills you because you want him to do all of this stuff with you, and you get jealous of the emotional energy he's expending that's not being directed towards you. And for the most part, he does spend his emotional capital with you, when it comes to work, family issues, his loyalties to sports/politics/civil war recreation, his kids, etc. From his perspective, however, where can he go when the reason for his emotional turmoil is you? He can't honestly state what he's thinking -- or he doesn't if he's the least bit wise. That doesn't mean he isn't sincere in his declarations of love and support and commitment to you, but even the best wife pisses her husband off about something, sometimes, and there are other times when a man just needs to recede from the realm of femininity for a time, to re-connect with his masculinity. That's what his friends are for.

And that's why there's the opposition: because she interprets his need for "buddies" as an immature attempt to escape from the relationship and commiserate with a bunch of puerile idiots. She's worried about what he's going to say to them about her, because she reasons that the only compelling reason a man would not want to confide his emotional energy exclusively in his wife was because he was having doubts about the relationship, was plotting something she wouldn't approve of, or otherwise exercise contra-relationship issues. After all, if what her husband was doing with his boys was harmless, why couldn't they include her? Feelings of rejection and abandonment, with a chance of resentment and anger. She feels emotionally betrayed by his willingness to _not only_ emotionally invest in someone that is not her, but _purposefully excludes her_ from the "loop".

I get that.

In good relationships, the wife learns to respect the "guy zone" and even encourages her husband to form strong relationships with other men -- and if she's wise, she'll learn to allow her husband a fair amount of freedom and independence around these relationships, even if they produce some anxiety. In doing so, she's demonstrating a trust for her husband that (if _he's_ wise) he should appreciate, allowing him the latitude to have some emotional space beyond her control or pervue. It's a difficult step to take, and some women are unwilling to take it all, which leads to some pretty dramatic conflict. But women who can manage it are providing their husbands with a demonstration of her self-security, and her belief in him. By relaxing her control and allowing him the room to maintain his own masculinity, he can return to her much more appreciative of what she means in his life. Otherwise . . . "how can I miss you if you won't go away?"

Good husbands, in turn, recognize the trust that their wives are investing in them, and they not only respect it, they let their wives know that they appreciate it. By respecting that trust, however, they are not agreeing to dish on what everyone said, because there's this thing called the Bro Code Of Silence. It's like confession: what's said under the code isn't repeated, even to the wives and girlfriends. So if a man confesses an affair to your husband, for instance, under the Bro Code he agrees to keep his mouth shut after he's offered his advice and perspective.

That's a scandalous thing for a woman -- a man keeping a secret from his wife about something a serious as infidelity, even if it didn't have anything to do with her husband. But it's _absolutely essential_ for men to be able to communicate with each other in a trustful environment without fear of judgement or compromise. When we hear a piece of candid information like that, and we recognize the profound implications it could have if it became widely known, then even if we know that you'd want us to share it, we feel obligated -- and justifiably so -- to keep that secret, even if we know you'd want to know. It puts us in a tough spot, sure, but by sharing those secrets with each other we not only increase our valuable (and all too limited, comparatively speaking) support network among men, it challenges our own sense of integrity, in a good way. 

Women have their own secrets, of course, and there's certainly a double standard about such things. But unless men can have their own space, their own friends, their own independent support network where they can escape your influence on a regular basis, then they lose touch with their sense of masculinity, self-worth, and emotional maturity. 

Does that make sense?


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

@Syrum: Thanks for the info. Completely skipped over the book mentioned in the article. I love that site more, as it seems to provide less/non biased information, which in turn is more pleasant. Guess what is written there and my view of the industry is somewhat similar. The small studios and agents are the ones who mostly abuse and it is exactly what I had in my mind. Didn't expect (some of) the bigger ones to have problems though. Thanks for letting me know. 

However, I am confident that the types of porn I watch don't have women being abused. I have posted the sites and small production houses before. Of the mainstream porn I watch, they are all made by women and have seen backstage for most of these vids. Before and after and the description given by porn stars and fleshbot give me a feeling that there is no abuse in those specific movies. Then there are the two sites I watch, and one is amateur movies for which you get paid to show your face while reaching the big "O" and the other is full body, but it is mostly women pleasuring themselves or being pleasured by other women in ways real women do it. Nobody is surgically enhanced. Not only slim women. You write in with a fantasy and if you are selected, you get to have it happen to you, how you want, the way you want, in a beautiful room etc. 

But as for my stance on the use of porn, it clearly hasn't changed. You have made me think about other forms of porn though. That site made the abuse clearer and it was exactly the reason I don't look at those kinds of porn anymore. I just feel awful if I see a woman being abused. And if there is one way to change the industry, it with voting with your money. 

@Ian: Nice post. I read it with gusto. If you would post this clear with an understanding from both sides, nobody could really said that you hated women. 
I do understand this dynamic from both sides even better now. The way you two discussed it was enlightening. Thanks  Guess we have a good dynamic in our relationship. Never had many friends to begin with, but they did not dwindle because of her. More because of people moving etc. Same for her. However, both of us have moments we just go out with our separate friends and it works fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Thank you. That was a cogent, reasonable, and well-spoken argument that showed me a perspective that I wasn't fully appreciating. And while I'm not going to recant my position, I do concede that this is a matter of perception that shifts based on your gender . . . and your ability to smoothly handle your interpersonal affairs.
> 
> It's one of those things where we see the same thing in two different ways, but naturally expect that the other side agrees with our perspective, more or less, and act on that belief. And that's where the friction occurs, that misunderstanding. I've seen it happen in counseling sessions, where a husband accuses a wife of being against his friends, essentially in an effort to deprive him of an independent support network. The wife sees what she's doing as a "civilizing" measure, a means of increasing their pair-bond while removing unpleasant influences from her husband's life. Since a lot of the time his friends are associated with pre-marriage behavior, he interprets her well-meaning but (let's admit it) controlling behavior as an attack on the period in his life when he felt he was at the peak of masculinity, and resent it.
> 
> ...


Ian,
You and I disagree on the porn issue, I do however 100% agree with what you just wrote. Spot on, Ian. 
My husband's dynamic is very similar to what you wrote but the logistics a tad different. His core group of 5 childhood friends are scattered around the world now. They are all married with kids and meetups are just not possible. Phone calls, yes. His friends here where we live are more like friends of "ours". Couples that we hang out with but no real man on man bonding. So while he still talks to his core friends often, his "down time" if you will is online gaming. That's his zone out thing. I do wish him and his friends lived closer. I think he was happier, truth be told.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> That's the thing: if you haven't realized the connection by now, you probably never will. And that's sad. Just one of the many ways that people on one side or another of the gender divide can't manage to garner the empathy and understanding necessary to appreciate what's going on across the divide. At this point I don't think you're going to be able to make that leap and understand that IT'S ALL RELATED. Male sexuality is a deeply personal thing, and while you're happy to simplistically dismiss porn as "bad for women" without appreciating how it could be "good for men", you're showing as much empathy as the men who shake their heads and roll their eyes when a woman has a serious issue and say "Must be that time of the month".
> 
> In other words, you aren't taking it seriously. But, luckily, the men are. You'd be very surprised at the number of private messages I've gotten in support. And while that might not jive with what YOUR ideal of manhood, the fact is that those of us who are defining our own sexuality have learned a lot from the discussion. Just not the things you wanted us to learn.
> 
> ...


I have also been PM'd by women (and men) supporting my (and other's) viewpoint as well.

Interesting that the men PM'd you instead of posting how they "really" feel where everyone can see it as there are not that MANY men posting on the actual thread.

Makes me wonder why they can't say what they wish to say out in the open - I do, what is there to hide?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Ian,
> You and I disagree on the porn issue, I do however 100% agree with what you just wrote. Spot on, Ian.
> My husband's dynamic is very similar to what you wrote but the logistics a tad different. His core group of 5 childhood friends are scattered around the world now. They are all married with kids and meetups are just not possible. Phone calls, yes. His friends here where we live are more like friends of "ours". Couples that we hang out with but no real man on man bonding. So while he still talks to his core friends often, his "down time" if you will is online gaming. That's his zone out thing. I do wish him and his friends lived closer. I think he was happier, truth be told.


Men tend to not form friendships like women do - men do not bond in the same fashion as women (for the most part). They spend a lot of their free time - especially as they age - with themselves or their family.

My husband has NO friends and I am not exaggerating - absolutely NO male friends. But that's the way he is - sort of a loner, has never had close male friends and chooses not to have one right now because in his words "they are more bother than they're worth" - though he does wish for a fishing buddy - I go with him, but just not the same. 

Me on the other hand, have a best friend since HS and others from my time during my military service.

Just another one on the list of differences between men and women.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

At the rate this is going, I'd have to quit my job just to keep up and post a reply. LOL

Interesting back and forth though...have to formulate my thoughts before I try to post an intelligence response to some that I clearly disagree and/or agree with.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I have also been PM'd by women (and men) supporting my (and other's) viewpoint as well.
> 
> Interesting that the men PM'd you instead of posting how they "really" feel where everyone can see it as there are not that MANY men posting on the actual thread.
> 
> Makes me wonder why they can't say what they wish to say out in the open - I do, what is there to hide?


If I remember correctly, someone else had asked a similar question about why didn't they support him by posting it out in the open instead of in PM's. He said, they were probably fearful of others being judgemental."


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I have also been PM'd by women (and men) supporting my (and other's) viewpoint as well.
> 
> Interesting that the men PM'd you instead of posting how they "really" feel where everyone can see it as there are not that MANY men posting on the actual thread.
> 
> Makes me wonder why they can't say what they wish to say out in the open - I do, what is there to hide?


This is simple. Men are afraid of women. REALLY. Strong women scare the **** out of us. What would be left for men if women don't need men? We are helpless without you. Wild beasts XD

So saying: Hey, porn is awesome will get the "fury" of women who disagree on their ass. I'd rather not have it as well. All men of the old garde know that sometimes you should just give up, as you will never win some discussions from a woman.

Joke a comedian once made. You can't win a discussion from a woman. You use logic. They don't. You can't use logic with beings who are irrational. You will always lose.

On the other side, saying you think porn is bad makes you "betray" other men, which is something we don't like to do.

Now, this is all greatly exaggerated. I like saying stuff like this exaggerated, as most of the time people just laugh at it and dismiss it, but it makes you think a small bit that there might be a small core of truth in there, which I think there is (based on my limited experience with couples and discussions with my sisters).


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Well.. I will still maintain it's not about control.


Yes, yes it is. More or less everything in a relationship is, in part.



> Point is, we women want to be in the loop. When we are not (justifiably or unjustifiably so), we lash out. We limit the circle of people he can confide in, hoping that when we are the only ones left, he will have no other choice but to confide in us. Unfortunately that's not the case.


That's quite close to how cults and counterintelligence interrogators operate. 



> But it's not about control. It's about our emotional need for him to view us in the similar way he views his friends, that is as someone he will feel safe to confide in, as someone he will _want _to confide in.


I would believe that except for the fact that my wife drove off all my friends up to and including not letting them in the house, refusing to get out of the car if we go there and intentionally cross scheduling sundry emergencies and such.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Yes, yes it is. More or less everything in a relationship is, in part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would not like saying this, but your wife... she ****ed you up...


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Yes, yes it is. More or less everything in a relationship is, in part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How could your wife drive off your friends? Aren't they your friends and you can go out to see them anytime you want? If my spouse refused to get out of the car, I would close the car door and walk right in. Why are you still with this woman? No sex since 93, if you have kids they would be mid teenagers now....why not leave?!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Draguna said:


> This is simple. Men are afraid of women. REALLY. Strong women scare the **** out of us. What would be left for men if women don't need men? We are helpless without you. Wild beasts XD
> 
> So saying: Hey, porn is awesome will get the "fury" of women who disagree on their ass. I'd rather not have it as well. All men of the old garde know that sometimes you should just give up, as you will never win some discussions from a woman.
> 
> ...


Trey and Michzz stood up. They had no problem not agreeing with the masses. I am pretty sure even if they agreed with him, they would have said so and not privately. Character makes the man.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Trey and Michzz stood up. They had no problem not agreeing with the masses. I am pretty sure even if they agreed with him, they would have said so and not privately. Character makes the man.


Thanks for the compliment, however I think I'll chime in.

I don't have a huge social circle, but it is not because my wife chased them off. I stay in contact with a few guys, most are long-term friends from way back. Others are more in the work contacts mode.

There are guys that like me are appendages to our wives friendships. We get along fine, but we all know we are there because the wives are doing stuff that they drag us along to.

Would we ever make independent efforts to do things? No.

Do I cry about it nightly?  

No. 

An observation. I can listen to my wife talk about how "deep" her friendships are with a dozen or more women of whom my own seeing of how they interact looks pretty damned superficial to me. I realize I don't see the half of what they say or do together, but if talking about shoes or going to Costco illustrates that depth, ok then.

I have a large extended family that I am more likely to socialize with than other friends.

A lot of the people I was friends with in my teens and 20s are still potsmokers or worse all these years/decades later. I prefer to not have drugs in my life so we drifted apart for those reasons.

Not flaming any of you herb lovers, it's a lifestyle choice.

If I want some outdoor activity to do? I ask my 20-something kid if he wants to go hiking. He usually wants to go. 

If my wife thought she could limit my friendships by manipulating me I think she would have tried it already. She has done terrible, terrible things in our marriage. But that is not one of them.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Trey and Michzz stood up. They had no problem not agreeing with the masses. I am pretty sure even if they agreed with him, they would have said so and not privately. Character makes the man.


:smthumbup:


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Trey and Michzz stood up. They had no problem not agreeing with the masses. I am pretty sure even if they agreed with him, they would have said so and not privately. Character makes the man.


Yeah. That was cool  I respect people who voice their opinion, be it in the minority or majority. I just do what I feel is me. That is why I just posted in the forum to say what I felt. Guess it wasn't a very popular view, but still how I felt. Mom always taught me it is better to speak up than be part of the silent majority and not being heard.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Yeah. That was cool  I respect people who voice their opinion, be it in the minority or majority. I just do what I feel is me. That is why I just posted in the forum to say what I felt. Guess it wasn't a very popular view, but still how I felt. Mom always taught me it is better to speak up than be part of the silent majority and not being heard.


One of the many issues I took with Ian was his continued stance that ALL men need porn. Many do but not ALL.
Trey and Michzz had the guts to chime in with their own beliefs and thoughts. They had the cajones to say, why are you speaking for us? Stop generalizing. Like I said, the character to speak your mind and pipe up.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Never mistake my strength as testimony to the fact that I don't want a man. I do want a man very much so...need is a little too intense for me. I am not willing to ignore my own needs or his needs to be with that man. Neither man nor woman while in a relationship should feel their needs are discounted all the time (sometimes they obviously are because these are complex relationships obviously). Not standing up, or needing a singular voice like Ian's to speak up on behalf of all men, is an injustice to all men.

Michzz is the bomb. Maybe I feel this way because I generally agree with him but I do believe it is because he is all things that I would want any man to be and because of this I have a great admiration for him. He is thoughtful, fair, understanding and willing to voice what he thinks. I wish I could wave my magic wand and transform his wife into what he deserves.

...but life is not about getting what one deserves or fairness, but rather seeking it within the major influx of extremes that will always be out there. I do believe we create the worlds we imagine, but when you have two people who started out on the same road but began to imagine different things, you run into trouble.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Brennan said:


> One of the many issues I took with Ian was his continued stance that ALL men need porn. Many do but not ALL.
> Trey and Michzz had the guts to chime in with their own beliefs and thoughts. They had the cajones to say, why are you speaking for us? Stop generalizing. Like I said, the character to speak your mind and pipe up.


I think for me, one reason it was easy for me to speak up and because I have no problem doing so, is because porn is something I can either take it or leave it. Its always been like that for me. I have watched my share over my lifetime just like I'm sure others have. Its just one of those things I feel I do NOT have to have or need. I will not die without it. Plus I found it boring over the years. I have read things about porn stars before too, and I do 100% believe they are treated poorly. I have read some horror stories of things that go on when the camera isn't rolling. I'm trying to figure out how some of those people, producers, directors, and crew, who treat those women like that, how they actually lay their heads down on a pillow at night with a clear conscience. Oh I bet I know, they pop pills and drink heavily and knock themselves out so they wont have to think. Until the day begins for them tomorrow. Wow, what a life.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

And Trenton too joins the march of the high healed avatars.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Brennan said:


> How could your wife drive off your friends? Aren't they your friends and you can go out to see them anytime you want? If my spouse refused to get out of the car, I would close the car door and walk right in. Why are you still with this woman? No sex since 93, if you have kids they would be mid teenagers now....why not leave?!


Because she is insanely vindictive, not above concocting things to get me arrested, fired, etc. Which she has tried before. She has clearly promised to financially bankrupt both of us in any divorce. I believe she would take that 'Samson Option' just to prove she's in control.

And yes my youngest child is 19. Considering the degree to which she meddles in their lives, it's unlikely they will ever marry or be independent either.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> And Trenton too joins the march of the high healed avatars.


I wanted to put my best foot forward.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

trey69 said:


> I think for me, one reason it was easy for me to speak up and because I have no problem doing so, is because porn is something I can either take it or leave it. Its always been like that for me. I have watched my share over my lifetime just like I'm sure others have. Its just one of those things I feel I do NOT have to have or need. I will not die without it. Plus I found it boring over the years. I have read things about porn stars before too, and I do 100% believe they are treated poorly. I have read some horror stories of things that go on when the camera isn't rolling. I'm trying to figure out how some of those people, producers, directors, and crew, who treat those women like that, how they actually lay their heads down on a pillow at night with a clear conscience. Oh I bet I know, they pop pills and drink heavily and knock themselves out so they wont have to think. Until the day begins for them tomorrow. Wow, what a life.


My hubby is like you. Watched his fair share but he does think it's "eh". He certainly would not fall in to the "your man needs porn or her will die" category.
Still find it odd that on an anoymous forum, men were too afraid to speak their minds. Not sure if it was us women who made them feel nervous or rather do they never say what is on their mind and just go with the masses.  
Keep rockin' that skateboard Trey.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> And Trenton too joins the march of the high healed avatars.


Mr. Choo is too busy wankin' it now to respond to this thread. Trenton's shoe did it. 

Right, Pitchin?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Because she is insanely vindictive, not above concocting things to get me arrested, fired, etc. Which she has tried before. She has clearly promised to financially bankrupt both of us in any divorce. I believe she would take that 'Samson Option' just to prove she's in control.
> 
> And yes my youngest child is 19. Considering the degree to which she meddles in their lives, it's unlikely they will ever marry or be independent either.


Holy crap Runs! What's your game plan? Poison? 
Wow, just wow.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Mr. Choo is too busy wankin' it now to respond to this thread. Trenton's shoe did it.
> 
> Right, Pitchin?


It is in honor of Pitchin, that's right. Poor man is probably wishing he never spelled that wrong.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> It is in honor of Pitchin, that's right. Poor man is probably wishing he never spelled that wrong.


It could be worse. My hubbie spelled it "Chew".

:rofl:

Hey, props that either of them knew what the hell they were!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Trenton said:


> It is in honor of Pitchin, that's right. Poor man is probably wishing he never spelled that wrong.


Yeah, when one apparently has a fetish you gotta at least spell it right. Lol!


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Holy crap Runs! What's your game plan? Poison?
> Wow, just wow.


I honestly don't know. I meditate, I run with my dogs. I wear headphones most of the time. Since I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, gamble, run after the skirts or have any other vices like that I guess clean living is its own reward.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Chew...:rofl:

Yes, the new fashionable high heals that look as though a dog has chewed on them. You can wear them with the acid wash jeans that come with holes and frays! For a beautiful trashy, yet classy look!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> I honestly don't know. I meditate, I run with my dogs. I wear headphones most of the time. Since I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, gamble, run after the skirts or have any other vices like that I guess clean living is its own reward.


Let me ask you, after your last kid is out, why can't you leave her? She sounds like a monster and even if you suffer financial loss, you at least have FREEDOM and happiness! 
She sounds positively evil!!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Chew...:rofl:
> 
> Yes, the new fashionable high heals that look as though a dog has chewed on them. You can wear them with the acid wash jeans that come with holes and frays! For a beautiful trashy, yet classy look!


Hey, be careful. Parts of Jersey still wear acid washed jeans. Maybe China will export a knockoff Jimmy and call it Jimmy Chew.
Yeah, I went with Jersey. Har, har.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Brennan said:


> She sounds positively evil!!


No one is pure evil. I think. Anyway it will probably come to a head in 2 years or so when the youngest is finished with school. She has always hated where we live and has always maintained that she wants to move back to where we were originally. Me? Take it or leave it. I'm not eager to take on a brand new mortage at that point, especially somewhere where the cost of housing is 2x what it is here. So if I simply say I'm not moving, that might be enough for her to leave me. Maybe. But as I've said before, people who don't own a single aspect of their own lives, who are never responsible for anything, not even their own happiness, are not prone to take the first step toward a divorce. More than likely her years long guerrilla war has been waged to get ME to do something LIKE but not quite, divorce, say, just move out and stay married paying for everything (she's never held a full time job, even after I put her through law school and she passed the Bar and was admitted. )

Who knows?


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

CallaLily said:


> If I remember correctly, someone else had asked a similar question about why didn't they support him by posting it out in the open instead of in PM's. He said, they were probably fearful of others being judgemental."


Who cares if anyone is judgemental.

It's all anonymous here - it's not like we all KNOW each other.

We can just choose to ignore what we don't like and listen to what we do.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Who cares if anyone is judgemental.
> 
> It's all anonymous here - it's not like we all KNOW each other.
> 
> We can just choose to ignore what we don't like and listen to what we do.


Wait, what? So we AREN'T all going to have a meetup meeting in the Windy City this summer and stand around holding hands singing Kumbaya?


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Draguna said:


> This is simple. Men are afraid of women. REALLY. Strong women scare the **** out of us. What would be left for men if women don't need men? We are helpless without you. Wild beasts XD
> 
> So saying: Hey, porn is awesome will get the "fury" of women who disagree on their ass. I'd rather not have it as well. All men of the old garde know that sometimes you should just give up, as you will never win some discussions from a woman.
> 
> ...


But WHY worry about fear here?

As I said, we're all anonymous here - I don't care if someone is judging me, thinks I'm kooky, weird, whatever. I can choose to ignore those people, I don't have to take what they say 'to heart' as they don't REALLY know me and I don't REALLY know them - they only know what I've chosen to put out here and vice versa.

When I post a thread or an opinion or a reply to a post, I WANT people to tell me like it is - don't hold nothing back - if you think I'm freaky, that's okay - I'm a big girl I can take it and then go ahead and do what I wish or listen and take a real look at myself.

I don't want people to be afraid to post what they 'really think'. That's why I'm here...why would you be here if you didn't really want honest, true feedback?

Defeats the purpose, I don't get it...


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> How could your wife drive off your friends? Aren't they your friends and you can go out to see them anytime you want? If my spouse refused to get out of the car, I would close the car door and walk right in. Why are you still with this woman? No sex since 93, if you have kids they would be mid teenagers now....why not leave?!


My husband never has friends to drive off...


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Trey and Michzz stood up. They had no problem not agreeing with the masses. I am pretty sure even if they agreed with him, they would have said so and not privately. Character makes the man.


:iagree: My point exactly!

Say it out here, I know I want to read it - regardless of whether I agree or not.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Wait, what? So we AREN'T all going to have a meetup meeting in the Windy City this summer and stand around holding hands singing Kumbaya?


I'll know you all by your shoes?


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Let me ask you, after your last kid is out, why can't you leave her? She sounds like a monster and even if you suffer financial loss, you at least have FREEDOM and happiness!
> She sounds positively evil!!


Why wait?

Life is too short...


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Wait, what? So we AREN'T all going to have a meetup meeting in the Windy City this summer and stand around holding hands singing Kumbaya?


Not unless it's somewhere warmer!


----------



## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Brennan said:


> One of the many issues I took with Ian was his continued stance that ALL men need porn. Many do but not ALL.
> Trey and Michzz had the guts to chime in with their own beliefs and thoughts. They had the cajones to say, why are you speaking for us? Stop generalizing. Like I said, the character to speak your mind and pipe up.


I would not even say that many need porn. I don't need porn. Would never ever consider it a need. It is something I enjoy, sure, but need... never...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Not unless it's somewhere warmer!


Well I'd offer up my adopted city of Houston but who the hell wants to be in Houston during the summer time. Lordy.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Well I'd offer up my adopted city of Houston but who the hell wants to be in Houston during the summer time. Lordy.


Well you definitely don't want to be where I am - far south with hot temps and humidity. Probably as bad as Houston...


----------



## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Thank you. That was a cogent, reasonable, and well-spoken argument that showed me a perspective that I wasn't fully appreciating. And while I'm not going to recant my position, I do concede that this is a matter of perception that shifts based on your gender . . . and your ability to smoothly handle your interpersonal affairs.
> 
> It's one of those things where we see the same thing in two different ways, but naturally expect that the other side agrees with our perspective, more or less, and act on that belief. And that's where the friction occurs, that misunderstanding. I've seen it happen in counseling sessions, where a husband accuses a wife of being against his friends, essentially in an effort to deprive him of an independent support network. The wife sees what she's doing as a "civilizing" measure, a means of increasing their pair-bond while removing unpleasant influences from her husband's life. Since a lot of the time his friends are associated with pre-marriage behavior, he interprets her well-meaning but (let's admit it) controlling behavior as an attack on the period in his life when he felt he was at the peak of masculinity, and resent it.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah. What your stand is depends on where you sit. From a man's POV he is being denied his friends/independence as a man. From a woman's POV she is being denied a part of his emotional side, something which she believes she should have 100% access to.

My husband told me this story once (this actually happened). 

My husband and his friends were on a guy's night out or something. My husband was the only single guy in that group. Now one of the married guys (let's call him Pete) had something to tell all the other guys, a secret. Before he said anything he looked pointedly at this other married guy in the group (let's call him John) and said "When I mean a secret, you can't tell anyone - not even your wife". 

John was already married for 10+ years at the time and I suppose it was a very well known fact that his marriage was extremely good one. In this instance though Pete really really cared that no one outside this particular group of men hears about his secret. So John goes: "Not even my wife?". 

And guess what, John got up and left the room.

My husband sought John out later and asked him why he left. It wasn't like John's wife would chew John's a$$, if he'd told her something like "You know honey, I am sorry I can't tell you. I promised". Obviously it wasn't a question of John running to his wife and tattling or insinuating something to her and then having to utter those words about a promise.

Well, John's rationale was that he was soo not going to stress and worry what he can or cannot tell his wife during their day to day unrelated conversations, in order to keep to that male code of honor. 

From a female perspective: this guy was a supreme specimen of a man, the man  

From one male perspective (that is, my husband's): My husband sat down and thought about it a lot, and came to a conclusion that, you know what, the guy is right. Why should he be torn between "keeping to the code" and feeling like making some reference to his wife? In this instance it's not about where this guy's loyalties lay; being "one of the dudes" or something to do with him "being kitty whipped". The guy's loyalty was, if anything, to himself.

From other male perspectives - no other man in the group was interested in knowing why John left the room, so naturally (I figure) they jumped to conclusions. John didn't go on defense and didn't try to explain himself to Pete or any other guy. He just left.

Of course this story speaks volumes on what kind of a woman John's wife was, right?


----------



## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> But WHY worry about fear here?
> 
> As I said, we're all anonymous here - I don't care if someone is judging me, thinks I'm kooky, weird, whatever. I can choose to ignore those people, I don't have to take what they say 'to heart' as they don't REALLY know me and I don't REALLY know them - they only know what I've chosen to put out here and vice versa.
> 
> ...


I'm not gonna say I know why. The best I can do is empathy. If I put myself in their place, it becomes a bit apparent, but I do not know if it is accurate. 

First of, I think they already feel shame. Then probably judged somewhat by their wives. This then makes them fearful for further judgment and to being dismissed. As I said, when women unite, you are a force beyond any men can handle. 

Men may unite when threatened physically, in the face of injustice, when they feel as if their liberties are taken away, when something will cause them to lose their ability to provide or be a man.

But men are fearful of emotions, condemnation and expressing needs. We have fragile ego's, something women are way stronger in. We don't group together to defend emotions and needs. We just tell other men and then, like I said before, deal with it. Only when they are very close, do they share their emotions and needs. 

So coming here and saying: "Hey, I like porn!" is as bad for some men as sticking their e-peens in a e-beehive.


----------



## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Of course this story speaks volumes on what kind of a woman John's wife was, right?


Yes, indeed, one in tune with his wife and she is in tune with him. But again, difference between specimens eh? If one person asks me to never tell a secret, I wouldn't. I've never ever told someone's secret to anyone. Not one of my girl's to my family or friends or any combination hereof.

Even worse, if someone tells me something is a secret, I just forget it within a few days, until that person brings it back up. Guess that is why everybody likes to use me as a listening post XD


----------



## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Yes, yes it is. More or less everything in a relationship is, in part.
> 
> 
> That's quite close to how cults and counterintelligence interrogators operate.
> ...


I am sorry for even having to have to admit this (even since this is a "anonymous" venue), but my mother has been like this toward my father 

I observed her for years and when I stripped off the piles upon piles of their relationship problems, their own personality flaws and resulting piles upon piles of resentments, this is what I figured was at the core.

I don't have any solutions for you, as I haven't got any for either of my parents  

Both of the parties should simultaneously put away their own resentments if anything is to be fixed. And having to start looking at the other person from a new/fresh perspective after 20+ years together is very hard to do.


----------



## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Draguna said:


> Even worse, if someone tells me something is a secret, I just forget it within a few days, until that person brings it back up. Guess that is why everybody likes to use me as a listening post XD


:rofl: Do you forget about that information being a secret or you forget about the information altogether?

I never met John or his wife. But I kinda joked to my husband that maybe John was the kind of a person who realized he's so absentminded that he'd remember the information but completely forget it's supposed to be _kept _a secret. :rofl: Thus the whole story would illustrate a completely different point :rofl:


----------



## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> :rofl: Do you forget about that information being a secret or you forget about the information altogether?
> 
> I never met John or his wife. But I kinda joked to my husband that maybe John was the kind of a person who realized he's so absentminded that he'd remember the information but completely forget it's supposed to be _kept _a secret. :rofl: Thus the whole story would illustrate a completely different point :rofl:


Forget the information. Woooh, would be bad if I forgot the fact it is a secret XD

Hmmm... you know, never thought about that possibility. I immediately assumed the same as you posted in the previous one.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Both of the parties should simultaneously put away their own resentments if anything is to be fixed. And having to start looking at the other person from a new/fresh perspective after 20+ years together is very hard to do.


But it can be done!

I've been married 26+ years and I am looking at things from a new/fresh perspective.

Status quo doesn't work for me anymore (and I suspect it doesn't for the hubby either) and I'm old...but not too old to change.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

reachingshore said:


> Oh yeah. What your stand is depends on where you sit. From a man's POV he is being denied his friends/independence as a man. From a woman's POV she is being denied a part of his emotional side, something which she believes she should have 100% access to.
> 
> My husband told me this story once (this actually happened).
> 
> ...


Perhaps. And I can appreciate his sincerity. But in doing so he revealed himself to the other men in the group as someone who could not be trusted absolutely. That's fine, I suppose, and it doesn't reduce respect for the man. But it will diminish the level of trust that the other men will feel they can put into their relationship with him.

Men who cannot have trusting relationships with other men are going to eventually have some problems.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> One of the many issues I took with Ian was his continued stance that ALL men need porn. Many do but not ALL.
> Trey and Michzz had the guts to chime in with their own beliefs and thoughts. They had the cajones to say, why are you speaking for us? Stop generalizing. Like I said, the character to speak your mind and pipe up.


For the record, I didn't say all men needed porn. I said that porn was an essential element of a fully developed male sexuality. Subtle difference.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Who cares if anyone is judgemental.
> 
> It's all anonymous here - it's not like we all KNOW each other.
> 
> We can just choose to ignore what we don't like and listen to what we do.


You don't truly understand the profound fear of judgement that men in general have of women in general. It's pretty severe, in some cases.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> For the record, I didn't say all men needed porn. I said that porn was an essential element of a fully developed male sexuality. Subtle difference.


Yeah, how did people have kids before mainstream porn? I guess they never got it up.

Essential element.:rofl: Ian you are too funny.


----------



## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> You don't truly understand the profound fear of judgement that men in general have of women in general. It's pretty severe, in some cases.


It goes both ways.

I guess you have never experienced feeling like your opinion was "Just a woman's", and been dismissed simply because you didn't have a penis. 

Many women seek approval from men, it's why so many women end up in the porn industry.


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

IanIronwood said:


> You don't truly understand the profound fear of judgement that men in general have of women in general. It's pretty severe, in some cases.


So severe that it can actually cause sexual dysfunctions, plus intimacy and performance anxiety that do not occur when masturbating alone with porn.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> For the record, I didn't say all men needed porn. I said that porn was an essential element of a fully developed male sexuality. Subtle difference.


OMG, you've got to be kidding. I guess now that I'm in my mid fifties, I will have to accept that I will never be fully sexually developed. 

Hoowee, that's rich, keep it coming!!!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Yeah, how did people have kids before mainstream porn? I guess they never got it up.
> 
> Essential element.:rofl: Ian you are too funny.


Porn -- artwork intended to elicit an erotic response -- has been around since the Paleolithic. People have been whackin' to other naked people since we were people. Restricting the argument to internet porn, specifically, is intellectually dishonest.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> Porn -- artwork intended to elicit an erotic response -- has been around since the Paleolithic. People have been whackin' to other naked people since we were people. Restricting the argument to internet porn, specifically, is intellectually dishonest.


No you are dishonest if you are going to want us to actually believe that men used to sit around whacking off to cave drawings rather then having sex. drawings and art depicting sex are a completely different form then the rubbish we now see everywhere.

There is a difference between art and porn. Porn objectifies women, art is expressive of life and what is often actually happening around people.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Perhaps. And I can appreciate his sincerity. But in doing so he revealed himself to the other men in the group as someone who could not be trusted absolutely. That's fine, I suppose, and it doesn't reduce respect for the man. But it will diminish the level of trust that the other men will feel they can put into their relationship with him.


Do you really think he cared?  His integrity as a man, the way he saw it, was intact.



> Men who cannot have trusting relationships with other men are going to eventually have some problems.


I suppose it's quite possible, but then again there is a difference between "Men who chose not to" and "Men who are not able to".


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> For the record, I didn't say all men needed porn. I said that porn was an essential element of a fully developed male sexuality. Subtle difference.


Oh great, you made me ruin a perfectly good cup of joe and this t-shirt as I sprayed out coffee upon reading this nonsense!

ESSENTIAL eh?

I have to go change my shirt now and get another cup...


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Syrum said:


> No you are dishonest if you are going to want us to actually believe that men used to sit around whacking off to cave drawings rather then having sex. drawings and art depicting sex are a completely different form then the rubbish we now see everywhere.
> 
> There is a difference between art and porn. Porn objectifies women, art is expressive of life and what is often actually happening around people.


Why yes, yes they did. Pretty well documented, too. See my blog for some incredible examples of Porn from Antiquity (But it's NSFW).

Porn and art are entirely subjective. Beauty and lust are in the eye of the beholder. If I whack off to art, does that make it porn? If I look at porn and don't whack off, does that make it art?

And if you just see rubbish everywhere, then you aren't looking hard enough.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

michzz said:


> Oh great, you made me ruin a perfectly good cup of joe and this t-shirt as I sprayed out coffee upon reading this nonsense!
> 
> ESSENTIAL eh?
> 
> I have to go change my shirt now and get another cup...


So . . . I take it you never looked at a really good @$$ before you met your spouse? Never checked someone out? Never gazed lustfully at an image of someone attractive? Never skipped through a trashy novel to read the good parts?

Our sexuality is not fully-formed if we have not challenged its limits. We cultivate our own sexuality through observation and reflection on the images and imaginings we create. Without such fantasies, sex is little more than ritualistic breeding, not the keystone to human civilization.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Ian, maybe you should just work on keeping it in your pants and looking up the definitions of words so that you don't use them so easily to fit your own extreme definitions. 

Porn Defined: Pornography or porn is the portrayal of explicit sexual subject matter for the purposes of sexual excitement and erotic satisfaction.

I love the color yellow, it really makes me feel cheerful but that doesn't mean I'm going to call all colors yellow and expect you to acknowledge this.


----------



## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Man, I thought this thread was dead and buried! oops! :lol:


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

AgentD said:


> Man, I thought this thread was dead and buried! oops! :lol:


It's very easy for Ian to get a rise.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Ian, maybe you should just work on keeping it in your pants and looking up the definitions of words so that you don't use them so easily to fit your own extreme definitions.
> 
> Porn Defined: Pornography or porn is the portrayal of explicit sexual subject matter for the purposes of sexual excitement and erotic satisfaction.


Um, that's what I said. Sure, I used the term "art", meaning "artistic medium". But that's essentially the same definition. Are you restricting your definition to purely visual media? 

"Porn is the portrayal ..."

"Porn is art..."

"of explicit sexual subject matter for the purposes of sexual excitement and erotic satisfaction."

"designed to elicit an erotic response."

I'm going to make a wild leap and equate an "erotic response" with "purposes of sexual excitement and erotic satisfaction." Unless, of course, you can convince me why the two don't equate.

And "keep it in my pants"? Why would I want to do that? My wife's pretty fond of it . . . 



Trenton said:


> I love the color yellow, it really makes me feel cheerful but that doesn't mean I'm going to call all colors yellow and expect you to acknowledge this.


Sure. But if it's "marigold", "harvest gold", "egg yolk", "lemon", "sunshine yellow", "natural candlelight yellow", or "grapefruit", I'm liable to lump all of them in as "yellow". If it's about sex, and it isn't an anatomy journal, then it probably elicits an erotic response. Or can be used "for the purposes of sexual excitement and erotic satisfaction." 

So, just curious, what do y'all think of the whole Charlie Sheen/Bree Olson (pornstar) stuff?


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

AgentD said:


> Man, I thought this thread was dead and buried! oops! :lol:


MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Back from the grave . . .


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> So . . . I take it you never looked at a really good @$$ before you met your spouse? Never checked someone out? Never gazed lustfully at an image of someone attractive? Never skipped through a trashy novel to read the good parts?
> 
> Our sexuality is not fully-formed if we have not challenged its limits. We cultivate our own sexuality through observation and reflection on the images and imaginings we create. Without such fantasies, sex is little more than ritualistic breeding, not the keystone to human civilization.


I take issue with your use of the word "essential" as you did in calling porn an essential element of a fully developed male sexuality.

That is an absurdity on its face.

A million years of successful male sexuality and it only is fully developed if porn is involved?

The rigor in your argument is kind of flaccid and laughable.



michzz said:


> Oh great, you made me ruin a perfectly good cup of joe and this t-shirt as I sprayed out coffee upon reading this nonsense!
> 
> ESSENTIAL eh?
> 
> I have to go change my shirt now and get another cup...





IanIronwood said:


> For the record, I didn't say all men needed porn. I said that porn was an essential element of a fully developed male sexuality. Subtle difference.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

michzz said:


> I take issue with your use of the word "essential" as you did in calling porn an essential element of a fully developed male sexuality.
> 
> That is an absurdity on its face.
> 
> ...



Then please enlighten me: just what IS essential for a fully-formed adult male sexuality?


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> Then please enlighten me: just what IS essential for a fully-formed adult male sexuality?


I'm confident that fully-formed adult male sexuality eludes you.

When all one has is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I'm no prude, not religious, enjoy relations with respect and fun.

I could point you toward scholarly works on sexuality but why should I bother?

You already know, as do I, that trolling about sexuality's essential ingredients does not enlighten.

Why you find that satisfying is why the essentials elude you.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Then please enlighten me: just what IS essential for a fully-formed adult male sexuality?


An awareness and willingness to discover and enjoy pleasurable sexual avenues with a willing and able partner. You discover all the different shades of yellow (hopefully without urine being involved) together with mutual trust and consideration. 

Otherwise, you're just another dude wanking off to another porn, thinking that is what women want while ignoring the fact that it's really all about you.


----------



## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm so glad I'm not defined by porn and whether or not my male sexuality depends on it or not.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

michzz said:


> I'm confident that fully-formed adult male sexuality eludes you.
> 
> When all one has is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
> 
> ...


I beg to differ. As a sex researcher, I find it quite enlightening. 

And the essentials don't elude me at all. I'm well aware of them, from a psychological, sociological, and cultural perspective (as well as biological, of course). You said I didn't know what the essentials of male sexuality were. I asked you for your list. You declined to give it, and instead I get accused of trolling.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> An awareness and willingness to discover and enjoy pleasurable sexual avenues with a willing and able partner. You discover all the different shades of yellow (hopefully without urine being involved) together with mutual trust and consideration.
> 
> Otherwise, you're just another dude wanking off to another porn, thinking that is what women want while ignoring the fact that it's really all about you.


That's interesting. So men cannot have a functioning sexuality in the absence of a partner? And their sexuality should be defined exclusively in relation to their partner? Or a woman, for that matter?

Men who wank to porn don't forget it's all about them. They embrace the moment of pure indulgence and relief. Of course it's all about them -- that's why they do it. And we learn pretty quickly it's not what women want. Of course, figuring out what women _do_ want is utterly elusive, but . . .


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> I beg to differ. As a sex researcher, I find it quite enlightening.
> 
> And the essentials don't elude me at all. I'm well aware of them, from a psychological, sociological, and cultural perspective (as well as biological, of course). You said I didn't know what the essentials of male sexuality were. I asked you for your list. You declined to give it, and instead I get accused of trolling.


Bingo.

Your intent is not to learn anything from me or anyone.

You imply that you have credentials in the subject, yet never finished your studies successfully.

What you want to do is create churn, inflame the conversation.

If you trully have the resources to find out about male sexuality essentials you would not ask me such a question. 

Classic trolling behavior.


----------



## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Where is the smiley that bows down and says "We're not worthy, we're not worthy!"


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> That's interesting. So men cannot have a functioning sexuality in the absence of a partner? And their sexuality should be defined exclusively in relation to their partner? Or a woman, for that matter?
> 
> Men who wank to porn don't forget it's all about them. They embrace the moment of pure indulgence and relief. Of course it's all about them -- that's why they do it. And we learn pretty quickly it's not what women want. Of course, figuring out what women _do_ want is utterly elusive, but . . .


Uh, yeah, that's what I said. :scratchhead:

Re-read but don't breed!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

michzz said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Your intent is not to learn anything from me or anyone.
> 
> ...


Actually, it's your _opinions_ of male sexual essentials that are of interest to me. I am quite interested in learning those. 

And who says I haven't finished my studies successfully? I mean, I haven't "finished" a work that's taken me over two decades to work on, but there are major parts of it that I can safely say are complete. I'm putting together a racy monograph now intended for the popular press, with a longer, more detailed, and far more boring academic report to be forthcoming.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Uh, yeah, that's what I said. :scratchhead:
> 
> Re-read but don't breed!


Too late: 3 evil geniuses are already spawned.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Can we just put this thread out to pasture. Yeah, we get it. Men need porn to define their sexuality. Without they will be lost or worse, commit suicide and women who object to porn are trying to harm men and control them.
Did I about sum up 657 posts?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Too late: 3 evil geniuses are already spawned.


They surely can't take down my heavenly geniuses!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> Actually, it's your _opinions_ of male sexual essentials that are of interest to me. I am quite interested in learning those.
> 
> And who says I haven't finished my studies successfully? I mean, I haven't "finished" a work that's taken me over two decades to work on, but there are major parts of it that I can safely say are complete. I'm putting together a racy monograph now intended for the popular press, with a longer, more detailed, and far more boring academic report to be forthcoming.


Syllabication doe not equal research or understanding.

But you bring up an interesting twist to the gnome project. You want to see what your airy fricatives bring forth.

When writers run out of ideas, they use people.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Can we just put this thread out to pasture. Yeah, we get it. Men need porn to define their sexuality. Without they will be lost or worse, commit suicide and women who object to porn are trying to harm men and control them.
> Did I about sum up 657 posts?


I would like to add a random tidbit of excellence here but I got nothing. Want to go sit on some whoopie cushions?


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Actually, it's your _opinions_ of male sexual essentials that are of interest to me. I am quite interested in learning those.



Then how come when others give you their opinions that you are so interested in, you shoot them down? You do come across as you think you way is better or your opinion is better.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Yes and play taps!


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Yes and play taps!


I guess some people can't get enough of having to explain themselves. They get off by digging it back up!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

It's buried and has a masoleum on top, New Orleans style. Let's leave it there. 
We will all just agree to disagree. Maybe a new thread is in order.....butthole bleaching, a necessary evil for us women? Surely that stimulating question should reach past 650 responses.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan, do you remember the movie Taps? When it came out I was a young, young little girl and I remember thinking those guys were HOT!


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Brennan said:


> It's buried and has a masoleum on top, New Orleans style. Let's leave it there.
> We will all just agree to disagree. Maybe a new thread is in order.....butthole bleaching, a necessary evil for us women? Surely that stimulating question should reach past 650 responses.


OMG I have read about that before, anal bleaching! :rofl:


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Brennan, do you remember the movie Taps? When it came out I was a young, young little girl and I remember thinking those guys were HOT!


Because they were! Wasn't there a reason I said play taps? Or rather, play with their taps.

:rofl: 

I kid.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Ah woman porn, men get to be who and what they are and we swoon. 

Since we're objectifying men, The Outsiders had some nice man meat too!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

michzz said:


> Syllabication doe not equal research or understanding.
> 
> But you bring up an interesting twist to the gnome project. You want to see what your airy fricatives bring forth.
> 
> When writers run out of ideas, they use people.


Hardly. People ARE ideas. And it would hardly be fair for me to just make stuff up about a subject like this. A good writer mines material from all of his or her experiences, including this one.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Not sure what women porn is although I have had an orgasm over a gorgeous pair of shoes given to me.

Har har.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

What's truer than the truth? The story. -Jewish Proverb that I'm going to have to keep quoting to you as I believe this is the second time.

A good writer understands that the facts aren't as important as what was going on underneath. You want to know the truth about someone you're going to need to get into their head because the truth is not always apparent in what is right before us but is always found with what lies deep within.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Not sure what women porn is although I have had an orgasm over a gorgeous pair of shoes given to me.
> 
> Har har.


I did the very same thing the other day, when I got my new golf club!  :smthumbup:


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> You don't truly understand the profound fear of judgement that men in general have of women in general. It's pretty severe, in some cases.


And I can appreciate that - but in an anonymous forum where you don't have to use or name of even say where you're from?

I would think this type of freedom would allow 'men' to express themselves without fear of retaliation or judgement.

Still just don't get it??


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Hardly. People ARE ideas. And it would hardly be fair for me to just make stuff up about a subject like this. A good writer mines material from all of his or her experiences, including this one.


So what will you call your new book? We will be mentioned right?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Not sure what women porn is although I have had an orgasm over a gorgeous pair of shoes given to me.
> 
> Har har.


I get horny from the oddest things. If he smells a certain way, gives me a look, does some arbitrary action. I remember one time watching him eat and it made me horny...not because he is a sensual eater but because he looked so singular and focused and this turned me on. :rofl:


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

AgentD said:


> Man, I thought this thread was dead and buried! oops! :lol:


NOTHING is ever dead and buried on TAM!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

trey69 said:


> I did the very same thing the other day, when I got my new golf club!  :smthumbup:


If it was a Big Bertha, I would too.  Details man, details!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> NOTHING is ever dead and buried on TAM!


This thread is like the Thriller video. They all look dead and over and then they suddenly rise up again and scare the **** out of everybody.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> This thread is like the Thriller video. They all look dead and over and then they suddenly rise up again and scare the **** out of everybody.


:rofl:


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> It's buried and has a masoleum on top, New Orleans style. Let's leave it there.
> We will all just agree to disagree. Maybe a new thread is in order.....butthole bleaching, a necessary evil for us women? Surely that stimulating question should reach past 650 responses.


Okay - I thought I was pretty enlightened about things - but - WTF is butthole bleaching - I have an idea, but WTH would do something like this?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> This thread is like the Thriller video. They all look dead and over and then they suddenly rise up again and scare the **** out of everybody.


:rofl:


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

What was that you mentioned about butthole bleaching? :scratchhead: 

I will never look at bleach the same again! 

Ok, who stole my bleach?!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

trey69 said:


> What was that you mentioned about butthole bleaching? :scratchhead:
> 
> I will never look at bleach the same again!
> 
> Ok, who stole my bleach?!


It wasn't me!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

IanIronwood said:


> Hardly. People ARE ideas. And it would hardly be fair for me to just make stuff up about a subject like this. A good writer mines material from all of his or her experiences, including this one.


And an ethical one does not delude himself that his manipulations are on par with the observations of a Studs Terkel.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ahem, **clears throat and hopes up on to podium**
Anal bleaching is a solution that is mixed (not acutal bleach) and applied to the rectum to lighten the pigment in the area. Often used by women in porn as the area appears darker with repeated anal sex.
Any takers?

Still want to hear about the new club, Trey! Callaway? Taylor? Ping!!!!?????


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

It's never too early to make weekend plans.

1. Take Jimmy to baseball
2. Defrost steaks for dinner
3. Bleach *******


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Ahem, **clears throat and hopes up on to podium**
> Anal bleaching is a solution that is mixed (not acutal bleach) and applied to the rectum to lighten the pigment in the area. Often used by women in porn as the area appears darker with repeated anal sex.
> Any takers?
> 
> Still want to hear about the new club, Trey! Callaway? Taylor? Ping!!!!?????


No bleach in the rectum! It's the inside. Anus is on the outside.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

michzz said:


> No bleach in the rectum! It's the inside. Anus is on the outside.


Yeah, yeah....Mr. Technical. You know what I meant.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Yeah, yeah....Mr. Technical. You know what I meant.


Thanks for not calling me a buttho!e


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Ahem, **clears throat and hopes up on to podium**
> Anal bleaching is a solution that is mixed (not acutal bleach) and applied to the rectum to lighten the pigment in the area. Often used by women in porn as the area appears darker with repeated anal sex.
> Any takers?
> 
> Still want to hear about the new club, Trey! Callaway? Taylor? Ping!!!!?????


Oh no you said porn stars use it! That means Ironman will be back to tell us what, how and why they use it, and he will make sure we know it goes deeper(pardon the pun) deeper than just for looks of the anal area during filming and that all women should try it! :rofl:


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Ahem, **clears throat and hopes up on to podium**
> Anal bleaching is a solution that is mixed (not acutal bleach) and applied to the rectum to lighten the pigment in the area. Often used by women in porn as the area appears darker with repeated anal sex.
> Any takers?
> 
> Still want to hear about the new club, Trey! Callaway? Taylor? Ping!!!!?????


Guess since I'm not IN PORN, I won't be trying this out anytime soon...


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

michzz said:


> Thanks for not calling me a buttho!e


Thought about it! 

:rofl::rofl:


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## venis (Mar 8, 2011)

:sleeping:Well I think you all have it wrong.
first of all, all things in moderation.
Sex, Porn, Lust, Toys, Swing, Dildos, Doing what ever you want to enhance your sex drive is ok if you both agree it's ok. For me they all work because the focus is not the porn star, the toy, or other things it's the training that we never got. How does one learn about pleaseuring your partner if they don't know what is pleasurable. Seeing talking doing things that you would never think of, Why because thats what make the world go around. We were not put on this earth to be bumps on a log. So what do you think.
Oh you may want to check out a site Adultism it's your everyday
people showing their thing not actors


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Oh and as far as my club goes Brennan, its a Callaway Diablo Edge Driver! I have PING as well, but also have a set of Callaways and needed a new driver!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

trey69 said:


> Oh and as far as my club goes Brennan, its a Callaway Diablo Edge Driver! I have PING as well, but also have a set of Callaways and needed a new driver!


I knew I loved ya! Callaway is headquarted in my hometown. 

Oh hey, as a thanks to your wife for such a nice and deserved gift....why don't you tell her you will gladly pay for anal bleaching and nipple tatooing to make them more rosey.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Thread Drift, Thread Drift!!!!!!

:smthumbup:

Thank you!

The mods!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

venis said:


> :sleeping:Well I think you all have it wrong.
> first of all, all things in moderation.
> Sex, Porn, Lust, Toys, Swing, Dildos, Doing what ever you want to enhance your sex drive is ok if you both agree it's ok. For me they all work because the focus is not the porn star, the toy, or other things it's the training that we never got. How does one learn about pleaseuring your partner if they don't know what is pleasurable. Seeing talking doing things that you would never think of, Why because thats what make the world go around. We were not put on this earth to be bumps on a log. So what do you think.
> Oh you may want to check out a site Adultism it's your everyday
> people showing their thing not actors


If you are "learning" your bedroom moves from porn, well. best of luck with that. I don't see any genuine pleasure in commercial porn but if you do, I'll drink the same Kool Aid.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> Thread Drift, Thread Drift!!!!!!
> 
> :smthumbup:
> 
> ...


Awe come on Amp. Anal bleaching, nipple tatooing and Callaway's are surely in SOME porno out there.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Brennan said:


> If you are "learning" your bedroom moves from porn, well. best of luck with that.


What, you mean dressing as a pizza delivery man, selecting a random house that happens to have a gorgeous but unsatisfied woman in it, walking in exposing your erect member only to have her drop to her knees with enthusiasm doesn't really happen???? Crap, no wonder my lawyer recommended the plea deal.


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## venis (Mar 8, 2011)

Well to bad for you.
you seem to miss the point so drink cool aid or what ever pumps your willy.
I can tell you this having an open mind will take you on one adventure to the next. I hope someone reads the post and understands what I ment.
:scratchhead: So TTFN


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> What, you mean dressing as a pizza delivery man, selecting a random house that happens to have a gorgeous but unsatisfied woman in it, walking in exposing your erect member only to have her drop to her knees with enthusiasm doesn't really happen???? Crap, no wonder my lawyer recommended the plea deal.


LOL. I was thinking more along the lines of the kind of porn Tiger Woods' "girlfriends" did. Clubs had to be in there!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

On second thought Amp, next time you want Mrs. Amp to REALLY get turned on...walk in to the room and drop your jeans. Naturally you aren't wearing any underwear. Tell her to kneel down in front of you while you slap your love snake across her face repeatedly. She will scream in wild abandon and beg for more. Make sure you grab a handful of her hair while you are at it. Women love seeing their precious follicles fall all over the kitchen floor.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Oh god, thought we had stopped this one. Seems so pointless to continue. Ian one side, Syrum on the other, lots of people in between on the scale. Fin.... Or is it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Oh god, thought we had stopped this one. Seems so pointless to continue. Ian one side, Syrum on the other, lots of people in between on the scale. Fin.... Or is it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am on the side of humanity and enriching sexual relationships. 


Ian is on the side of profiteers. 

Ones a factual place where thinking caring rational human beings reside, the other....


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

venis said:


> Well to bad for you.
> you seem to miss the point so drink cool aid or what ever pumps your willy.
> I can tell you this having an open mind will take you on one adventure to the next. I hope someone reads the post and understands what I ment.
> :scratchhead: So TTFN


Depends on what your definition of an 'open mind' really is.

I swing with my husband - do you?

That's OPEN...but not so open to my hubby pumping his willy to porn while my vay vay ices up from lack of use.

All about perspective...


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Syrum said:


> I am on the side of humanity and enriching sexual relationships.
> 
> 
> Ian is on the side of profiteers.
> ...


Your implication then being that anyone who does enjoy porn - even as a couple willingly participating in enriching their sexual relationship - is, by definition NOT a "thinking, caring, rational human being."

With such an automatic knee-jerk reaction not sounding terribly thinking, caring or rational itself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## venis (Mar 8, 2011)

venis said:


> Well to bad for you.
> you seem to miss the point so drink cool aid or what ever pumps your willy.
> I can tell you this having an open mind will take you on one adventure to the next. I hope someone reads the post and understands what I ment.
> :scratchhead: So TTFN


Well thank you, someone did understand what I said. Personal Sexual attitudes are what we are talking about. I relate sex and food in the same behavior patterns. We eat to satisfy our need to nourish the body and we have intimate relations to satisfy our bodies as well. As one ad's salt to flavor the food sexual devices flavor the act. I will say that I was disappointed by the comments of my original post. I thought that this site was to share thought that might help others. No one asked me to provide a clearer picture of my though. They just made fun of it so if this what we do here I will leave. I thought this was a great site but maybe I was wrong. Since that was my first post I'll see what happens don;t get me wrong I like a good laugh too
when it is appropriate


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

venis said:


> Well thank you, someone did understand what I said. Personal Sexual attitudes are what we are talking about. I relate sex and food in the same behavior patterns. We eat to satisfy our need to nourish the body and we have intimate relations to satisfy our bodies as well. As one ad's salt to flavor the food sexual devices flavor the act. I will say that I was disappointed by the comments of my original post. I thought that this site was to share thought that might help others. No one asked me to provide a clearer picture of my though. They just made fun of it so if this what we do here I will leave. I thought this was a great site but maybe I was wrong. Since that was my first post I'll see what happens don;t get me wrong I like a good laugh too
> when it is appropriate


But FOOD is actually a NEED on Maslows Hierarchy - you can't live forever without food.

But you can actually live forever without intimate relations. Maybe not happily, but it does not have the same effect as food and water to our bodies. It affects our mind more (though some men would disagree).

Remember that when you post here, you're going to get differing opinions - some are going to piss you off and others you will nod your head up and down and agree with.

If you are not thick-skinned enough to accept all inputs (good, bad and ugly), then maybe a blog where an exchange of ideas and opinions is not a good place for you.

I just IGNORE those that make me mad or feel insulting, etc., and pay attention to the ones that don't.


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## venis (Mar 8, 2011)

*WOW*!:scratchhead:
I just read this thread and it was fascinating. First of all I’m new to TAL and think it is a great site and it seems to do a really good job of bringing issues to the table. I admit that I posted to this thread before reading all the post. So I didn’t have a good feel for what was really going on. I have a much better feel now. 
I must give thank to all the women who posted here thank you for sharing you thoughts. It is very refreshing to look in the mind, thoughts and feeling of a women. This was a great subject, what great responses, and to see how some of you opened up and explained your feelings was amazing. If we would only do this in our daily life. This reminds me of the movie Lire Lire with Jim Carrie, So what if we indeed speak the truth all the time. Would things be better I don’t know, but I do know is I have a different opinion about this matter. I have a different opinion about life and my marriage. Like most if not all humans we get in a rut in the day to day world we live in . Jobs , children, cell phone computers, school, just to name a few and it has changed who we were.
Some of you may have walked away from this thread feel anger, some frustrated, and some intent on proving your point. I challenge you to read it again, but this time read it as the other sex or person. 
I for one hate the touchy feely mood of society today, but I think it is good to know what others are like inside. Where they come from and why they think the way they do. Brennan, Married wife in Love as well as a few others really exposed their hearts and feelings hear and I thank you. If you look at what they shared and what brought them to say the things they did, and feel the passion of the heart . You will walk away with a totally different attitude about personal relationships. I hope those that were looking for some resolve to a question found just that and if your not sure read this again. Men , Women as I stated in my first post 
Well I think you all have it wrong.
first of all, all things in moderation
And that includes myself , and we review the things in life that cause us to have a heavy HEART, and are willing to find the true source of that which is the problem. Open our mind and hearts to the truth about the matter then we can come to a resolve. To sum this up this thread is more about love and respect than it is about porn and sex. 
Agree or disagree as long as we do agreeably


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Very well said Venis. I posted what I did as this was my perspective of the commercial porn industry. Perhaps my experience is not what others have gone through but I can only talk about mine. I do not like commercial porn and we can discuss whether that is warranted and such. Everybodies life experience is a series of events. Some people hate elevators because of a traumatic experience with one. Other people hate meat because they grew up on a farm and witnessed slaughter. Are their feelings valid? Yes. 
What ruffled my feathers was Ian saying in essence that I am close minded because of my belief. I am the furthest person from close minded on this subject. Would he be so quick to tell a non-meat eater that they are close minded because they refused to eat a steak? Would he badger somebody who took the stairs everyday because of their extreme fear from trauma in an elevator? I doubt it. So why is porn such a polarizing subject? Why can't a person come on here and say they don't like it and let it just be. If somebody doesn't like porn, why does that make them a sexual hostage keeper? 
Like I said, all of us have experiences that changes our perception. That's what life is all about. Ian makes his living promoting the porn industry and that is his right and I respect that he is proud of that and stands by his belief. I have a different belief and it is my right to say I believe commercial porn is wrong for many reasons and I should be respected for that and not challenged because I didn't read a contract, do a background check and hire a lawyer. 
Yes, this thread is more about love and respect than it is porn and sex....totally agree. I respect anybody who talks about their experiences, whether I agree with them or not. That's what is so great about a website like this and why I became a supporter.


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## Lazarus (Jan 17, 2011)

It's not sexy if your man is not present. A woman needs to feel desired in order to give herself. What woman wants a man who doesn't want her 100%? A spouse or partner watching porn on their own indicates to a woman she isn't enough and he is not 100% present in the relationship.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> A spouse or partner watching porn on their own indicates to a woman she isn't enough and he is not 100% present in the relationship.


If we accept this statement to be true, then my wife is either:

A) not a woman
Or
B) the proverbial exception that proves the rule.

She sometimes watches with me, and sometimes doesn't. She not only doesn't mind me enjoying it on my own, but will sometimes encourage it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LGSL (Mar 23, 2011)

So dray, I'm curious - would you consider your porn use an addiction?


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## ocngirl (May 21, 2011)

Porn today is not what it was 20 or 30 yrs ago. My father was into porn, along with all the guys I grew up with. Their porn was magazines or movies. Safe porn. Now, there is the internet. Scarry and not so safe. On the internet, one the one going on the dating sites or adding porn to friend list on facebook. Now they can get in contact with the women or men and start a relationship; never mind they are married. It goes a step farther than just fantasy. My husband and I are in a situation where it can't be helped that we have a very limited sex life. I guess because sex is lacking he looks at porn and adds to friend list. But now he can talk to them. Its not right. I could deal with magazines better than I can with the internet!


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## married woman (May 4, 2011)

So...when I discovered my husband of ten years had been watching and masturbating to porn our entire marriage, I was devastated. Absolutely devastated. It has now been year and a half, and after many, many conversations, I am past the porn but am still hurt deeply by the secrecy. He kept this from me purposely as he erased computer history every time he watched it and made sure to do it when I wasn't around. I also think that I am hurt the most because he has never once come to me to talk about making our sex life better or to tell me he needs variety. I feel like the porn was an easier way to satisfy his needs and he didn't give us the opportunity to improve our sex life. I would like to hear what men have to say about the secrecy component. That definitely hurts the most and keeps me from fully moving forward because how do I trust that his needs are met in the future?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> It's not sexy if your man is not present. A woman needs to feel desired in order to give herself. What woman wants a man who doesn't want her 100%? A spouse or partner watching porn on their own indicates to a woman she isn't enough and he is not 100% present in the relationship.


That seems like a selfish attitude.

same could be said of men. who wants a woman with a selfish attitude. if you only have sex when she wants it and never show any signs of desire. then men are likely to turn to porn.

Which can first the chicken or the porn


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## Indy Nial (Sep 26, 2010)

Well as someone who kept it a secret from my wife for a decade I can tell you. For starters its a habit that is formed way before they met you, in my case I was just too embarrassed to admit it. I justified it as it was 100% fantasy and never ever a substitute. My wife simply didn't have as high a sex drive as me, she never gave or received oral and I often suggested different things even rooms but she was never interested. 

The porn was just an out and better than an affair or chat rooms etc. She is now using as a reason to justify her own affair even though I confessed after I found out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## incognitoman (Oct 22, 2009)

Why would a guy be secretive? We'll most women do not view porn as a good thing. The guys like it, they don't want to get screamed at, in a fight, etc .. 

We're told that it makes the woman feel inadequacy and we don't want to hurt our women. 

That said, I personally feel that porn is damaging and destructive. I have seen how it has hurt my marriage in the past and I am glad to be rid of it myself.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

OMG - the thread rises again! HA HA

Just kidding...

I think the secrecy actually is the most bothersome thing for me. I had no issues when it was front and center and we had an active sex life.

But when the sex life went south and the porn usage increased and he started hiding and lying about it - when then that's when things went to h$ll in a handbasket.

If it's normal, like a lot of men say it is - then why the need to hide and lie about it?

Because it makes your wife/woman feel inadequate and it hurts them - them how about JUST NOT DOING IT THEN - then there is no need to hide it.

It's NOT A NEED, it's a WANT - reason why there are so many men (and women) that don't partake - it's not necessary - there is NO NEED for porn.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> OMG - the thread rises again! HA HA
> 
> Just kidding...
> 
> ...


Like I've said before.....no thread ever really dies here. It's like the Thriller video. Just when you think it's over, a zombie reaches his hand out from beyond and the whole thing starts back up again. Chris is sitting back like Vincent Price laughing at the enanity of it all.


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## Indy Nial (Sep 26, 2010)

OK so when is a good time to say "Hi honey I whack off to porn?". Just before you get married? On the honeymoon? There is no good time.

Guys want to impress and on the list of things how to impress your wife/girlfriend guess where porn ranks!

Personally, I would never have even looked at porn if my wife was willing. I just never saw the need to tell her, why would you if it wasn't affecting your relationship? 

You're not keeping a secret anymore than not telling someone you pick your nose. For me it wasn't something I wanted to brag about, being brought up in a very conservative family didn't help!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Like I've said before.....no thread ever really dies here. It's like the Thriller video. Just when you think it's over, a zombie reaches his hand out from beyond and the whole thing starts back up again. Chris is sitting back like Vincent Price laughing at the enanity of it all.


You are so right - he probably is laughing his butt off right now!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Indy Nial said:


> OK so when is a good time to say "Hi honey I whack off to porn?". Just before you get married? On the honeymoon? There is no good time.
> 
> Guys want to impress and on the list of things how to impress your wife/girlfriend guess where porn ranks!
> 
> ...


Yeah, but picking your nose doesn't affect my self-esteem or the fact that I ain't getting any.

Apples and oranges man - apples and oranges.

If you're embarrassed, then why do it.

Anything that involves embarassment, hiding, secrecy and lying - think maybe it's something YOU shouldn't be doing?

I wonder how men would really feel about porn if their wives were masturbating to it regularly, telling you no, lying about it, erasing computer history and all that you men claim to do in the interest of "were men" or testosterone or all the other excuses you come up with - I don't think you "guys" would understand if the tables were turned - no sirree.


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## sofie (Mar 20, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I wonder how men would really feel about porn if their wives were masturbating to it regularly, telling you no, lying about it, erasing computer history and all that you men claim to do in the interest of "were men" or testosterone or all the other excuses you come up with - I don't think you "guys" would understand if the tables were turned - no sirree.


:lol:
I don't think men would like that at all !

But also a question for you men....
Why do men look at porn when they have a low sex drive and their wife is willing enough?
.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Yeah, but picking your nose doesn't affect my self-esteem or the fact that I ain't getting any.
> 
> Apples and oranges man - apples and oranges.


Part of it is context. Indy asked the question at what point is it "appropriate" to tell your partner you enjoy porn. Myself, I've been fortunate in that, in both of my significant relationships, it hasn't been an issue. My college gf and my wife have both been aware that I enjoy porn, enjoy(ed) it themselves, and weren't threatened or offended by it. My wife has specifically said that she doesn't mind what gets me going, so long as I only take care of it on my own or with her. (The irony that she's expressed this view all along, yet had a PA a year ago is not lost on me.)

With the college gf, the issue came up because she'd previously dated my former best friend and roommate. (No...I didn't cause their breakup. After he dumped her and most all of his friends, we started hanging out, got closer, etc, etc.). After we got together, she asked where the porn stash was...she'd asked him when they were together, but he denied one existed. I was up front with he about it. Showed it to her. It was the first time she'd watched any, and enjoyed it. She would suggest going to rent some as often as I would.

With my wife, I honestly don't recall how the subject came up, but it was early in the relationship.



> If you're embarrassed, then why do it.


Guys are brought up with a bit of a double standard regarding masturbation. On the one hand, there's the "everyone does it" mindset that is, effectively, accurate. But, just as strong is the traditional male mocking of masturbation along the lines of, "He can't get any, so he's gotta beat off.". Although most guys are aware of the prevalence of masturbation, male ego pushes them to mock and shame any male who openly admits to it, and thus proclaim that they, themselves, don't.

This extends to porn, as well, thanks to the associations made between porn and masturbation. Many men don't want to admit to either to a woman, because of that stereotype that a "real man" doesn't "need" porn or masturbation.



> Anything that involves embarassment, hiding, secrecy and lying - think maybe it's something YOU shouldn't be doing?


Maybe. Or maybe it's something that shouldn't involve embarassment, hiding, secrecy and lying. Maybe demystifying both would go a long way towards removing the unwarranted automatic connotations of both.



> I wonder how men would really feel about porn if their wives were masturbating to it regularly, telling you no, lying about it, erasing computer history and all that you men claim to do in the interest of "were men" or testosterone or all the other excuses you come up with - I don't think you "guys" would understand if the tables were turned - no sirree.


In a scenario like that, I disagree that the problem is porn. The problem is lying and lack of communication. There's nothing wrong with either partner masturbating, unless it's to the exclusion of the other partner. Lying is a problem that speaks for itself. Hiding one's tracks...again, if there's healthy and open attitudes and communication, there's no need to do so.

I can, to a degree, understand why someone might not share ALL the details of their porn tastes, even if their partner has no issue with porn. They may be concerned with how their partner may react to some of their genres of choice. For instance...that college gf of mine. We'd been renting and enjoying porn together for a fair amount of time before she - somewhat sheepishly - admitted that she wanted to rent a gay video. She had long fantasized about seeing two guys together. She was quite relieved when I told her not to worry about it...if she wanted to rent one, rent one. I enjoyed the occasional all-woman video when it did nothing for her...there was no reason she shouldn't watch something she wanted to see. She rented one, liked it, and most trips to the video store after that ended up with her picking out a gay or bi video. So, I can understand someone saying, "My husband/wife doesn't mind me checking out porn. I don't want to push my luck and let him/her know that nun porn is my particular kink." what's sad about it, though, is that, if both partners ARE ok with one (or both) of them enjoying porn, it seems unlikely that there would be any problem with subject matter unless it's illegal or crosses established boundaries within the couple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

It's Thriller time.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Can we have the Glee "Thriller"/"Heads Will Roll" mashup, instead?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

You just lost your dude card, sorry Grayson.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

I disagree, Therealbrighteyes. Good music, fun stories. Plus Heather Morris, Naya Rivera and Dianna Agron. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Indy Nial said:


> OK so when is a good time to say "Hi honey I whack off to porn?". Just before you get married? On the honeymoon? There is no good time.
> 
> Guys want to impress and on the list of things how to impress your wife/girlfriend guess where porn ranks!
> 
> ...


Picking your nose or other no so attractive personal habits do not even come close to porn. If you really believe they are in the same ball park then really you don't understand the importance of sex and intimacy in a relationship. No one who knew it's real value would compare it to such things.

As this thread shows porn effects the viewer in many ways that they often do not consciously realize and can be very toxic to sex lives. Not to mention the ethical implications.

Moreover if you think keeping something like masturbating and porn use a secret as something acceptable then your relationship will have big issues.


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## married woman (May 4, 2011)

I truly believe now that porn itself is not the issue. It's the secrecy and finding out your husband has kept a part of his sex life secret from you your entire marrriage. I also find it selfish, especially if men are viewing and masturbating to porn when their wives are ready and available.
The marital counselor we are seeing does a lot of pre-marital counseling and always brings up the topic of porn and masturbation between two people who are getting married. She does this so both parties are on the same page with their views on the subject. I sure wish this has been discussed between my husband and I before we married. It sure would have made the last year and and a half a lot easier. 
I also am in full agreement with the post about porn being okay if both spouses know about it.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It's Thriller time.


Zombie Porn! Hmmm, there's got to be that fetish out there somewhere.

No links, PLEASE!!!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> Zombie Porn! Hmmm, there's got to be that fetish out there somewhere.
> 
> No links, PLEASE!!!



Well his jacket IS going up for auction next week. Perhaps Vivid will capitalize on this.


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## Gert B Frobe (May 6, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Let's agree to disagree.
> 
> But first, let me digress. I have no judgement about masculine sexuality at all - I just know, as a mother of a son myself and as a woman who has a brother, etc., that a lot of "boys" are raised to be the type of "men" that objectify women and still believe that they should raise the children and keep the home and the barefoot, in the kitchen and pregnant still exists - even to this day.
> 
> ...




Wow MWIL, you sound just like the mother on the movie Carrie


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## Gert B Frobe (May 6, 2011)

Ridiculous
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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