# Sexless (Loveless?) Marriage



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Hi folks, it's been a long time since I've posted. My full story is very long (you can probably see my old posts under my profile if you'd really like to) so I will try my best to keep this short.

Essentially, for the entirety of my wife and I's married lives, we've lived in a mostly sexless marriage. By that I mean, in nearly 16 years of marriage (separated for about three of those years) we've probably averaged some form of sexual activity maaaaybe two or three times a year, if that. To clarify what "sexual activity" means, I mean literally any kind of sexual activity, ranging from full penetrative sex, to oral sex, hand stuff, playing with toys, etc. Early on in our marriage, we had a lot of problems that led to our separation in year six, like immaturity, porn addiction on my part, really unrealistic expectations, us dabbling in some unhealthy behavior to try to spur any kind of libido, etc. (Things like wife sharing) It was messy, but we grew from that, figured out most of our messes and have been back together for the last six or so years and have since had two more children, ages 1 and 3.

My hope had been... and she assured me at the time this would happen... that as part of our maturing and figuring out the various ways that we drove our marriage into a ditch, that our sex life would grow and become healthy as well. Prior to the separation, she never had any interest in sex of any kind, any activity, but again I had hoped it was because of our marriage being unhealthy at that time. But while our marriage is SIGNIFICANTLY healthier than it ever was before, there has been absolutely zero growth in the sexual relations department. If anything, it's regressed, now to a point that it's absolutely causing the marriage to suffer. Nowadays, most nights she is quiet, nose in her phone, avoiding me at all cost, going to bed early, pretending to be too tired or sore or aching or tired or anything to so much as look at me, let alone speak, or engage in any contact whatsoever. Contact meaning she doesn't even want to touch, hug/kiss hello or goodbye or goodnight, nothing. The discomfort is thick in the air. She will go to extreme lengths throughout the day to set the stage for avoiding contact that day/night, like casually mentioning headaches, back pain, fatigue, etc. then repeat them in the evening to shut down any notion of contact. Unless plans change, in which case she suddenly feels fine and will invite people over or go out herself or whatever.

To be clear, we've talked about this stuff. I've relayed to her many times how incredibly important having a sexual relationship with my wife is. If you're into the "Five Love Languages", mine is definitely physical touch, which certainly involves much more than just sexual stuff but she wants no contact with me at all. She doesn't handle criticism well, she never has, so she refuses to talk about it most of the time or just sits and gets angrier whenever I try to gently bring anything up. I go to GREAT lengths on a daily basis to treat her like a queen as well, giving her anything she wants, doing everything I can for her, offering to help with anything, giving her back rubs/foot rubs, making her meals, fetching her treats, anything I can. I work on her love languages every day, but I can't think of any effort she has made purely on my behalf in months. Until recently, I tried not to even push her for sexual activity, I try to romance her to see if I can have it come naturally, but it doesn't happen, so lately I've been trying to just very gently outright ask her. We've been married a long time, so I know romance sometimes is hard to come by so I just started asking her. In fact, I've been gently, lovingly asking her every night for a couple weeks now, where as in the past it was more like once a month. My hope has been that maybe I could get her to see how much she rejects me, to see if she runs out of excuses. Instead, it's just been making her angry and depressed. So last week, I reminded her that she had promised me two years ago that she would find us a marriage counselor to help us out, and told her I wanted her to do that.

Since then, she's been even more angry and depressed. Even our 15 year old daughter has noticed it a lot lately. She's just mad, every day. I'm setting appointments up with a counselor, and I know she's dreading it. She seems to be assuming that the whole point of the counseling is to get her to have sex with me, but that's certainly not what it's about. Heck, I wanted HER to pick a counselor so that she wouldn't think that I picked someone who would be favorable to my needs. I want to fix whatever the problem is, not just make her have sex with me.

So the first thing, I'd love your thoughts on what I've shared so far. Secondly... I've heard from other women before, and folks here on the forums, that it's not uncommon at all for men to have a higher sex drive than women, especially when you've been married for a long time. I've also heard that it's somewhat common for wives to recognize this, and because they love their husbands, sometimes they just go along with it for his sake. I'm not saying "faking it" necessarily, but just recognizing his needs and being willing to commit 10-20 minutes to help him out. Sometimes even scheduling it, lol. One of my assistants once told me that she and her husband had to schedule it for every Thursday, and she usually wasn't excited about it but was happy to put in the effort every week "because he deserves it, for being a good guy, husband and father." So the part that bugs me is... I work damn hard to be a good husband, father and person. I make dinner every night, clean up the house, spend lots of time with the kids, hardly ever see my friends save for maybe four or five times a year, I really do treat her like a queen, give her all kinds of time to herself while I take on the kids or other projects, etc. Even if there is no hope for her libido, even if she will never be personally sexually excited again, why can't she give me just that little bit of effort every so often to show me that she cares? That I'm important to her? It's not ideal, but hell that would mean so much to me.

So that's what I mean by the "(Loveless?)" part of this thread title. These days I've increasingly believing that perhaps she just doesn't love me, and the guilt is contributing to her anger/depression. I figure even if it came out that she is asexual, I still can't rationalize why she couldn't make a little effort to throw me so much as a handjob every now and then and a few hugs/kisses. My understanding is that even asexual people still enjoy physical contact with their loved ones, just maybe not sexual contact.

Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated. As of now, the last time we had sexual contact of any kind was a quickie when we went on our first vacation this past february in Mexico, and before that it was about a year prior to that when she was pregnant and she gave me a handjob. (So twice in the last ~18 months) We have marriage counseling set to start next week I believe. Sorry for the length!


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

My wife’s bestie has never had an orgasm. Her husband has a small penis and he’s a quick cummer, which might contribute to it. (Though I don’t know why she won’t use a vibe to get it done.) They’ve tried lotions to delay his sensations and last longer to no avail. She never turns her husband down for sex, though she may grimace and act unhappy when asked.

Scheduling for once a week seems like little to ask. That way she can relax the other six days knowing you won’t initiate.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

cdbaker said:


> Early on in our marriage, we had a lot of problems that led to our separation in year six, like immaturity, porn addiction on my part, really unrealistic expectations, us dabbling in some unhealthy behavior to try to spur any kind of libido, etc. (Things like *wife sharing*)


I have some ideas, but they depend on more detail around this, especially the bolded.

Who's idea was this, what happened, and what has happened since?


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

CraigBesuden: Heck I've thought about this too. Especially given that she had a couple of affairs years ago that certainly were sexual, but then again she and I were pretty sexual when we were in the early stages of our relationship as well. It's new, it's exciting, even illicit (we were teenagers, Christians too, so we were supposed to be saving it for marriage ya know), I get it. I really don't have any shame in this department. I'm about 6" hard, which is right about average I'm told but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if I'm not. My wife and past girlfriends have told me I'm of good girth too, for what that is worth. I don't think I'm a quick cummer, though again I wouldn't be offended if I found out I was, but I don't think it would matter because the few times we have had any sexual contact of any kind my wife has made clear that she wants me to finish as fast as possible. In fact that added pressure has often meant that I can't get off, meaning I'm lasting too long and she gives up or asks me to stop.

Others have asked if she ever masturbates. In years past, she did occasionally. Even while ignoring my needs I would find out that she would masturbate with her favorite vibrator probably about once a week or so. This was when she worked as a nurse working odd hours, so she would have a couple days a week with at least a few hours to herself at home. How did I know she was masturbating? I wanted to know for myself if she was getting herself off so I started checking the exact position of her vibrator in her drawer from time to time. Like the EXACT position, so I could tell if it had been moved, cleaned, taken out of it's bag and put back in, etc. Like I said though, to my knowledge she hasn't masturbated in a long time, or at least no where near as often as the once or so a week she used to. Honestly I'm not even sure when she would find the time to do so now, as we always have kids in the house needing our attention these days.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

cdbaker said:


> CraigBesuden: Heck I've thought about this too. Especially given that she had a couple of affairs years ago that certainly were sexual, but then again she and I were pretty sexual when we were in the early stages of our relationship as well. It's new, it's exciting, even illicit (we were teenagers, Christians too, so we were supposed to be saving it for marriage ya know), I get it.


Wait, what? When did she have these affairs? Were you married?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.


People are who they are, and the notion that something needs to be fixed often will only serve to make the problem worse. 

My advice would be to acknowledge that your wife has zero libido and let her know that it does not effect the love you have love for her, but that as a result you struggle to feel loved by her. Let her know that she does not need to be shamed for having no libido. Have a conversation about what you each need from one another to feel loved. 

Her first step is to acknowledge that you have an active libido and that it is nothing for you to feel ashamed about it one way or the other. That is what it is. Just like her not having a libido, it is what it is. 

Once you remove any shame (if there is any), THEN you can work towards what you need to do for one another to make each other feel loved and cared for in the marriage. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Marduk: I have one or two very long threads on this from the past but to try to summarize... basically the lack of sexual contact for so many years led me further into porn addiction. Porn use is a progressive addiction, meaning you can't use the same material over and over again without it getting stale and needing more, different material. Eventually I found myself turned on by the idea of watching her have sex with someone else. In my mind at the time, I thought that might even awaken her libido. I had some sexy photos of her that she had posed for in the months after our first child was born one lucky evening, and I hinted that I'd love to share one or two with a friend of mine. She allowed that, heard his compliments on the photos and was open to me taking and sharing more. She liked the attention, the compliments, etc. Over time that led to me sharing that I wouldn't mind seeing them be frisky. Most of this she was opposed to, but over time it started to turn her on as well, and eventually one evening while video games it just sort of happened. I think we played a racing game and turned it into strip racing somehow. They hooked up, and she had a blast. Then she jumped on me and that was great too. The next day she felt enormous guilt which I tried to help her cope with. Over the following months she would bounce back and forth from wanting to repeat it, to feeling guilty about it, but mostly she was good with it and for a while our sex life improved immeasurably. Eventually that stopped, but we were also into posting pics on a wife sharing board online, anonymously, but someone happened to recognize her somehow despite there being no face pictures. That person and his wife were basically swingers, and happened to be parents of a daughter who was in our daughter's class of all coincidences. We decided to get to know them a bit, to see where that went. Honestly I found them very weird, creepy, etc. and wasn't interested in hanging out with them at all, let alone anything more than that, but he started pursuing her behind my back. Given the other issues occurring in our marriage (like I mentioned earlier, immaturity, selfishness, unfair expectations, depression (hers), feeling inadequate (her), etc.), she was very susceptible to his advances and they ended up having an affair, without his wife's knowledge as well, which lasted several months. During that affair, she was so happy to just have the admiration/affection of another guy without any feelings of guilt, so she was ready to divorce me. When he bailed on her after getting caught, despite promising to run away with her essentially, she fell back into our relationship and in therapy we discovered how dysfunctional our marriage was, completely unrelated to the dabbling in wife sharing. That's how I learned about how my own views on the marriage were harming it as well, and creating an environment where intimacy couldn't really grow naturally. There is a LOT more to that story however.

So again, we screwed up, she would openly admit that she did as much as I did. I was and am completely willing to forgive/forget the past, meaning I am not really blaming her for being sexually reserved back then when she was married to a guy who was a bit of an *******. Since we got back together years later though, I regularly check in on my wife to see how I'm doing, I've offered therapy many times if need be, and she's always said that I'm doing great. I'm certainly not perfect by any stretch, but I'm very confident that even my wife would tell you that I've been a very good husband and father for the last 6+ years since we reconciled.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> ...my wife has made clear that she wants me to finish as fast as possible. In fact that added pressure has often meant that I can't get off, meaning I'm lasting too long and she gives up or asks me to stop.


Let me give you another perspective on that. Imagine she feels sexually inadequate to ever please you. She knows you really want it. Yet when you do get down to business it seems like you want it but just not with her. How horrible must she be if you are desperate and can not climax with her during sex?

That is how low self esteem can manifest itself into some horrible sexual problems. 

I totally get where you are coming from regarding the male point of view. No man wants duty sex, and then on top of that to be asked to hurry it up as fast as you can will mess with your head. Sex is about making an emotional connection, not about emptying the balls. 

Just want you to see both points of view. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## nekonamida (Feb 21, 2017)

CDBaker, we need to confront the elephant in the room right off the bat. If the wife you have today is the wife you have for the rest of your life and not a single thing changes in the frequency of your sex life/other forms of intimacy, is that good enough for you? Would that be a deal breaker? How long could you go exactly as you are today before you would be looking to divorce her?


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

BadSanta: Great advice. Like I mentioned, I've said as much to her recently as well. Basically that, perhaps it's unrealistic to expect that her libido will grow over time, with or without therapy or any other active steps like medication or anything like that. If that's the case, I've made clear to her that I certainly still love her, but that her ignoring my needs like this for years on end has led me to feel completely unloved and unvalued by her, so we need to come up with an alternative solution, one that doesn't rely on waiting for years for her to feel "in the mood" some day. I'm hoping that marital therapy will help with this.

Marduk: Yeah, like I said, there were affairs. Some were traditional PA's, some EA's, some were more of a once or twice off kind of thing. All told... two PA's (one about six months which is the one I described in brief above, one that was technically about two years which kicked off our separation), two that were basically once or twice off encounters of opportunity (one was a former boyfriend she ran into at a bowling alley while out with friends and saw again once or twice that week on her own, the other wise another wife sharing forum guy who found us and she connected with at least once or twice as well without my knowledge), and there was actually one EA just over two years ago that lasted about two months. Another former boyfriend who reached out to her on FB. Never went to PA, never was even really emotional in the sense that there were no expressions of love or running away together, but it was a hidden text/online chat relationship in which they discussed inappropriate things and occasionally discussed getting together to hook up. Mostly it was him pestering her about wanting to see her and her playing coy and sometimes feeding his lust a bit, making and then canceling plans. After I discovered this "relationship" I tracked it privately for about a month to see how deep it went and how far it went without them knowing, so I'm confident I know the extent of what happened. When I busted her is when I told her she needed to either move out or commit to finding a therapist. She did neither, and I ended up not following through on enforcing it, so that's my fault of course. Now I'm finally enforcing the therapist element, which is what we're trying to schedule to begin now.

For what it's worth, her old therapist has shared with me that she felt all of the old "affairs" were not the result of her wanting out of the marriage, but rather depression and low self esteem. All of the guys she engaged with in any form were ...for lack of a better word, beneath her. Two were twice her age and out of work, nearly homeless. One was a cable installer, another an exterminator, both were overweight and married. My wife is young, attractive, and is a registered nurse with a good income, so she could "do better" as it relates to finding a man if she wants to, but her therapist said that what gave these guys a chance is the very fact that they were "beneath her" in terms of desirability. None of them could ever make her feel unworthy or undesirable, because it was obvious they would be lucky to have her. 

For the record, I'm quite confident that she's not cheating in any form right now, nor has she since the suedo-EA two years ago. If anything, our marriage has improved in many ways since then, and I've learned to be very tuned in to the various signs of infidelity in a spouse.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

CDBaker, I wasn’t implying that you are small or a quick cummer. Just that my wife’s bestie, who clearly gets nothing out of it, doesn’t turn her husband down for sex.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

In all honesty, it might just be that she’s checked out of the marriage, and isn’t interested in having sex with you at all. A lot of women’s sex drives are much higher than those of men, mine is one of them. I could happily have sex twice a day. When I was married though, my (now XH) shot me down regularly in the first year of marriage. So, I stopped initiating. During the course of our almost 4 year marriage, there were numerous things that pushed me in the direction of checking out, and in the end, I killed my sex drive because just the thought of sleeping with him made me want to vomit. And yes, I talked to him about our marriage issues quite a bit.

Talk to your wife: has she checked out? What keeps her in the marriage? What makes her smile? Maybe she really is going through a depression and needs some help through that. Does she have another man in her life?


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Nekonamida: Yep, this is something that's been on my mind for a while now. Say we do marriage counseling, or she ends up doing IC, or we try many counselors, and the end result is that she is simply not willing to take any step to improved our sex life in any form whatsoever, period. I don't know what I would do. The marriage was improving so much that we decided to have two more kids who are just one and three years old now. With that said, I don't think I could continue to live the way we do now forever. I think hope is what keeps me going now, but if that hope was gone, I think we would have to divorce. NOT just because she doesn't want to have sex with me, but because it would mean she doesn't love/value me enough to even go through the motions of meeting my needs.

There are lots of things we all do for our spouses that we don't feel like doing, that's not news to anyone. That is the single biggest issue that bothers me now. Even if her having a libido is just not in the cards for her, it's never going to happen, then I still can't find any reasonable explanation for why she's willing to put us through all of this for years on end and more recently this daily misery of avoiding me, appearing to be miserable and angry, etc. unless it's the fact that she just doesn't love me (maybe never did) and feels guilty/depressed about it.

Because seriously. Not to get graphic about it, but even leaning over and using a gel masturbator sex story on me for five minutes until I get off would count for something. It's humiliating for me to say to her, but I've specifically said even that would be ok. Seriously, she could keep her nose in her phone the whole time if need be. Why on earth is she not willing to give even an ounce of energy to me?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Wow! That's a lot going on there. I am glad you noted the potential for asexual. It was a possibility I was going to mention. There is also a chance that something has changed in her body that has suppressed the sex drive to practically nothing. This could also be a possible source of her anger and frustration.

Another possibility might be some kind of borderline autism or other condition where she can experience sensory overload from physical contact.

In any case, it would probably be prudent to have a full physical done to check for issues. Now if it ends up being something physical and correctable, you should be good to go. If not then you will have lots of choices to make.

Therapy/counceling is a def, especially if you want to continue the marriage. But she has to put in her efforts as well. This issue to making a relationship work long term is making sure both of your needs are met. If not there is going to be frustrations and resentment that brews. As to what solutions are available to you depends on what kind of people you and your wife are.

Most everyone need to have both their emotional and their sexual needs met. For some, they have to be met by the same person. For others, as long as they are met, it doesn't have to be the same person. Both you and your wife have to figure out which you are. As the latter, more options are available. The former, not so much. There is no wrong or right between the two, just what is wrong or right for you and your wife.

Regardless, you need the relationship therapy first, to help you determine where you both fall. As a suggestion, ask your daughter for help. As a mid to late teen, while not quite ready to be on her own, she is surely capable in assisting in the selection of a family/marriage therapist, and your wife can't attribute the girl's motives to "getting daddy laid". She is going to want what is best for mom and you.

Hope this helps.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Craig: No worries, I understand. I just wanted to point out that heck, I'm probably not a very good lay these days, lol. I've been denied for so long, I'm WAY out of practice. I have no problem admitting that.

Ursula: Maybe she is checked out... but I don't know. We've had lots of good moments in the last year or two, even very recently. For a while I tried dropping any slight hint of sexual contact and she did become much more open to hugs, kisses, even cuddling, etc. But when I tried to take it a step further, everything shut down again. I think she's mostly addicted to her phone, she spends most of her time there on Facebook, instagram, etc. She loves spending time with her family, hates her job mostly, and being with our kids. Honestly I'm pretty certain there is no one else in the picture. Back when that was a concern, she was always super secretive, hiding her phone, making excuses to go out without me, "staying late" at work, etc. None of that is happening, and I do keep an eye out for it. I'm pretty certain that her depression is a HUGE reason for what has been happening. She's been off and on anti-depressions since she was a teenager, and right now she is off of them because of some side effects I believe. As I said, she has never ever had a high sex drive, and I really don't think she wants a divorce at all either. Heck just a week ago, even after I told her that I want us to commit to marriage therapy, she was asking me for my thoughts on if we want to have another baby. Maybe she's just taking me for granted? Figuring she's gotten away with it this long that I probably won't actually force the issue or leave?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

CD,
There is a certain amount of completely nonverbal signaling in a marriage. For a man - especially a man who is the primary or sole breadwinner, the proposal or acceptance of the idea of having more children is the strongest possible signal of:
1. Complete acceptance of how they are being treated
2. A desire to continue the marriage long term

By choosing to have two children BEFORE resolving this issue, you very clearly messaged that you were ok continuing to be sexless. By choosing to have two more children AFTER 13-15 years of a sexually broken marriage - you signalled acceptance. 

It doesn't matter what you say now. You sent that incredibly strong message - not once - but twice in a short period of time. 

IIRC - she always seemed happy to have your financial support - despite not respecting you - and that hasn't changed at all. 




cdbaker said:


> Hi folks, it's been a long time since I've posted. My full story is very long (you can probably see my old posts under my profile if you'd really like to) so I will try my best to keep this short.
> 
> Essentially, for the entirety of my wife and I's married lives, we've lived in a mostly sexless marriage. By that I mean, in nearly 16 years of marriage (separated for about three of those years) we've probably averaged some form of sexual activity maaaaybe two or three times a year, if that. To clarify what "sexual activity" means, I mean literally any kind of sexual activity, ranging from full penetrative sex, to oral sex, hand stuff, playing with toys, etc. Early on in our marriage, we had a lot of problems that led to our separation in year six, like immaturity, porn addiction on my part, really unrealistic expectations, us dabbling in some unhealthy behavior to try to spur any kind of libido, etc. (Things like wife sharing) It was messy, but we grew from that, figured out most of our messes and have been back together for the last six or so years and have since had two more children, ages 1 and 3.
> 
> ...


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## nekonamida (Feb 21, 2017)

I hear you, CDB. That's basically exactly what I wanted to know and how I view it too. You're willing to compromise and you're in a good spot if you can see that she needs to compromise too.

It could be a litany of issues. It difficult to say what's going on with any certainty. Asexual? Who knows but probably not due to the multiple affairs. Just not that into you? Maybe. Exacerbated by small children and lots of pregnancy/PPD/other health issues? Probably to some degree. Addicted to the thrill of new partners as a requirement for being sexual? Probably also to some degree. 

What you can do before MC in the mean time is to stop asking about sex and try to detach from her a little bit. Be kind and supportive but let her come to you for anything social related. Give her some space and take a little space yourself because smothering her, no matter how kindly you're doing it and how infrequently, is going to have the opposite results that you want. Step back and see if she chases you at all. The good news is if she is checked out, this also won't hurt your relationship in any way.

In this same part of TAM as your thread, there is one by a poster named Holdingontoit. I think you should read it because it's a great example of what happens when everything goes wrong, nothing improves, but you still stay in a sexless/loveless marriage. If you spend too much time on this, there will come a time when even if she does initiate, you will turn her down because you aren't comfortable anymore with intimacy with her. He's not the only man I've known to do this and Ursula clearly found herself in the same boat too. Ideally you want to make a choice about whether this can be saved or not BEFORE this happens. Because once it does, divorce becomes your only way out.

The worst part about this is that NO ONE can make your wife do anything. Not you, not the therapist, not us, NO ONE. You can do every single little thing right from this point forward. You can install a vibrating ring to your shaft, start ****ting gold, and orgasming silver and your wife still won't bite. Because she doesn't want to. And no one can make her. The threat of separation wasn't even enough for her to spend 10 minutes on Google looking up a therapist and booking an appointment. She has to want it and right now she does not want it at all. That could change. Stranger things have happened. But if it doesn't, you will never have the marriage that you crave with her.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

if you keep treating her like some sort of queen, you will keep getting the spoiled princess. Just stop. 
I really don't know that I would take advice from me If I was you. After all my track record in similar circumstance is abysmal. 
The first thing you need to do is come to terms with the Idea that she isn't interested in you. Once you have abandoned hope things will be easier. 
No expectation, No disappointment.
If you pay the bills, Let the phone expire. It's not just games she is playing.
Buy a new bed.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

MEM2020: Sounds reasonable. I guess I just need to figure out how to move forward now. Can her libido be salvaged? Can she commit to respecting my needs going forward? If necessary, can I learn what ways I contributed to this and change accordingly as well? Or can I push it to the point of separation or divorce and potentially move on if need be? We'll see I guess.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Mr. Nail: I've occasionally slept on the couch or spare bed, just because I'm so frustrated/infuriated by the situation on a given night. I have tried mostly ignoring her, stopping all of the little things I do to try to make her feel loved. I've done so for months at a time in fact, but it never seemed to make much difference. When I'm treating her like a Queen she does seem happier and will occasionally give me praises, thanking me, hugs, kisses, etc. Those are all appreciated, but pretty meaningless when the single biggest issue is so knowingly ignored.

I've read the Married Man's Sex Primer 2011 as well. Good book, and I employed a lot of it's suggestions, but it never seemed to change anything.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

badsanta said:


> My advice would be to acknowledge that your wife has zero libido


Oh, I now think she likes sex just fine. Just not with him.

Because almost word for word she's telling him exactly what my ex wife told me. Different context, no wife swapping or found affairs, but the same thing.

And yes, she ended up cheating on me with at least one guy and she eventually got bored of trying to make me leave, and ended up leaving herself.

We, too, were sexless. Turns out she liked sex a lot. Just not with me.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

cdbaker said:


> Mr. Nail: I've occasionally slept on the couch or spare bed, just because I'm so frustrated/infuriated by the situation on a given night. I have tried mostly ignoring her, stopping all of the little things I do to try to make her feel loved. I've done so for months at a time in fact, but it never seemed to make much difference. When I'm treating her like a Queen she does seem happier and will occasionally give me praises, thanking me, hugs, kisses, etc. Those are all appreciated, but pretty meaningless when the single biggest issue is so knowingly ignored.
> 
> I've read the Married Man's Sex Primer 2011 as well. Good book, and I employed a lot of it's suggestions, but it never seemed to change anything.


First of all, while portions of that book are useful, the vast majority is not, and the tone is all a mixture of misogyny, misandry, and a total misunderstanding of evolutionary biology.

Secondly, the stuff that is useful in it only works if there's some attraction there to begin with.

Your wife doesn't want you sexually. She does want other guys sexually. The answer here is simple.

She goes her way and gets what she wants (other guys) and you go your way and get what you want (find someone that desires you). Win/win.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

cdbaker said:


> the few times we have had any sexual contact of any kind my wife has made clear that she wants me to finish as fast as possible. In fact that added pressure has often meant that I can't get off, meaning I'm lasting too long and she gives up or asks me to stop.... Honestly I'm not even sure when she would find the time to do so now, as we always have kids in the house needing our attention these days.


My wife would do that while we were trying to conceive, then complained later that it wasn’t fun. Telling you she just wants it over with ASAP isn’t sexy.

If she’s busy working and has little kids and no time and not enough sleep (and not enough down time), not to mention depressed, sex will be just a chore to her. It should get better when the kids are older.

I do believe that the more she enjoys having sex with you, the more likely she is to agree even when not in the mood.

How about this? No screen time for adults in the evening, including your phones, until you’ve had sex.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

I absolutely loathe the "just do it" mentality and expectation, and you want her to just do it. I know you're at your wit's end to understand why she won't, but I think it's a bad idea to force her into marriage counseling. I know you're exactly forcing her, but you kind of are since you know she doesn't want to do.

I guess that all means I don't believe in expecting a person to do things they don't want to do. I believe only in the fact that people can only control themselves and their own actions. Nobody has any business trying to force or control the actions of the others. Maybe you'll strike eureka one day but you more likely won't. So, if you don't get what you need, then I don't understand you being, or at least remaining, with a wife who doesn't want any sexual contact with you. I don't get people spending years suffering like that or spending any time at all trying to convince or force their spouse into it.

Or better yet, tell her that since she's not interested, you're going to begin having sex elsewhere. Ask her how she feels about that. She just might give you the go-ahead. It only makes sense. One person shouldn't assume control of any aspect of their marriage. Everything should be agreed. And while you have implied agreement to a sexless marriage by tolerating your marriage being sexless, it wasn't as though she had your blessing to dictate.

Of course, if you don't want to seek relations outside your marriage, that is very commendable of you and I understand. So don't threaten her or say what I suggested because if you say it, you have to be willing to follow through.

Incidentally, size doesn't have much to do with a woman's satisfaction. Either you know how to please your woman with your penis or you don't. If you don't, she is most likely bored and for you to say _" the few times we have had any sexual contact of any kind my wife has made clear that she wants me to finish as fast as possible. In fact that added pressure has often meant that I can't get off, meaning I'm lasting too long and she gives up or asks me to stop"_ makes me think she is bored. Not all guys know that just because intercourse feels good to them doesn't mean if feels good to her. It really seems like that's the way it works but it isn't. So think about what you're saying. She avoids any intimate contact with you, and I think it's because she fears it will lead to you wanting sex, which she can't stand the thought of doing. When you do have sex, she wants you to hurry and finish or, if you take too long, she asks you to stop because she's getting nothing out of it. So, that leaves me to think that perhaps you don't know how to use your penis to please her. The conclusion otherwise would be to suggest she is numb and dead inside, which is less likely than the former assumption.

I will say though that I can really understand if we women are just confusing as hell to men. On top of that, if she has never told you how to please her, then how the heck are you supposed to know? Yes, I get it. I get it if you don't know how, and I get it if she can't tell you how. Until it actually happens for us, we have no idea how to help you learn to please us. So, I *wrote a response* to help set some guys on the path of figuring it out. I don't mean to sting. I just know it's a fact of life that some men need this information. And I'm not saying this is the case with your wife. I'm saying it seems to me that it is and, therefore, worth me making the suggestion to you.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

SHE IS CHECKED OUT. She will wait a few more years till the kids are more self sufficient, say around 6 or 7. Then she will say adios. Don't feel bad, happens all the time.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

ok, I was reading through and kind of feeling empathy for your wife up to a point. i mean if you really don't want/like sex (for whatever reason), then i 
can understand her hyper-avoidance. not condone it, necessarily, but understand it (to a point). 

I mean, I'm not a woman, but i remember listening to a 'mark and brian' show years ago and they were describing how they got their wives pregnant 
and their wives allowing this hairy, ugly beast to go down on them. of course that was in jest, and thank God that the vast majority of women don't see it that way,
but some actually do. i wouldn't want a big hairy beast going down on me either...........YUK!!!!!!!

but then your next to last paragraph implies she won't do anything sexual, and then i lost empathy for her.
i mean can't give you cuddles, kisses, hugs, hand jobs?

somewhere along the years, she must have lost it. the question is why?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jorgegene said:


> ok, I was reading through and kind of feeling empathy for your wife up to a point. i mean if you really don't want/like sex (for whatever reason), then i
> 
> can understand her hyper-avoidance. not condone it, necessarily, but understand it (to a point).
> 
> ...




Did you read the part where she enjoys having sex with other guys, with or without his consent?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Marduk said:


> Did you read the part where she enjoys having sex with other guys, with or without his consent?


Nope, he didn't read that part because it isn't there. He didn't say she enjoyed it. But it would support my theory if that is the case.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Why don’t you sit her down, ask her to be brutally honest, and tell you whether she enjoys having sex with you? Does she orgasm with you? What would make it better - different positions, locations, etc? Is she masturbating? How often? Does she just have no libido? Did she ever? Does she wish she had a stronger libido?

Were her other lovers better than you? How so? Does she want to have sex, just not with you?

What about fantasies? Anything you could roleplay or watch on TV that might turn her on?

Have you gained weight over the years?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

She dropped her panties pretty readily for that pedophile years ago...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

StarFires said:


> I absolutely loathe the "just do it" mentality and expectation, and you want her to just do it. I know you're at your wit's end to understand why she won't, but I think it's a bad idea to force her into marriage counseling. I know you're exactly forcing her, but you kind of are since you know she doesn't want to do.


When it comes to a couple agreeing to schedule intimacy and making it happen, there is a lot of value and positive things that can come of that. Sometimes for the woman struggling with libido it sets aside a great deal of time to focus as a couple on nonsexual intimacy because the husband will know that there is no sex tonight as that is scheduled for a different evening. This in turn eventually helps things to happen more naturally. 

A wife with low libido avoid many forms of nonsexual intimacy because it immediately triggers the respective husband for sexual intimacy before she is emotionally ready and feeling connected to her spouse. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

If I had to guess, I would say your past has broken any sexual desire she had for you. Not that she didn't play a part, but as she indulged your fantasies, as you made her into a hot wife, she loathed you for it. Even if she was turned on, she hates you for that, for making her into something she never wanted to be.

I don't know if you can salvage it, but it would require some serious counseling. It is likely that she is not even sure why she hates the thought of sex with you so much.

Somewhere in all of that, she was made into a object for you to get off with, and she sees everything you do as an attempt to make her into that object again. She would rather never have sex again, than feel that way.

Just my opinion.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

StarFires said:


> Nope, he didn't read that part because it isn't there. He didn't say she enjoyed it. But it would support my theory if that is the case.


Uh...



cdbaker said:


> They hooked up, and *she had a blast.*...
> *mostly she was good with it and for a while our sex life improved immeasurably.*
> ...*During that affair, she was so happy* to just have the admiration/affection of another guy without any feelings of guilt, so *she was ready to divorce me. * When he bailed on her after getting caught, despite promising to run away with her essentially, she fell back into our relationship...


She's only with him because the other guy dumped her. She enjoyed having sex with those other guys. She doesn't with him.

Doesn't matter why at this point. Doesn't matter if he condoned it, or deserved it, or whatever the reason is.

What matters now is that she doesn't want him sexually and is only with him because one of the guys she did want dumped her. This isn't a libido issue. This is an attraction issue.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

badsanta said:


> A wife with low libido avoid many forms of nonsexual intimacy because it immediately triggers the respective husband for sexual intimacy before she is emotionally ready and feeling connected to her spouse.


Yep, I said that in another area of my post.\



badsanta said:


> When it comes to a couple agreeing to schedule intimacy and making it happen, there is a lot of value and positive things that can come of that. Sometimes for the woman struggling with libido it sets aside a great deal of time to focus as a couple on nonsexual intimacy because the husband will know that there is no sex tonight as that is scheduled for a different evening. This in turn eventually helps things to happen more naturally.


I wasn't trying to address the scheduling part. Someone else suggested that. I think you're right though that it helps a lot of women feel more open to non-sexual intimacy. I know a lot of women avoid it because they resent he always trie to make it lead to sex. "Why does every hug and kiss have to lead to sex?" is a common complaint for women, so scheduling is a good idea because it checks him and relieves her anxiety. But I don't think it would work for this woman since she doesn't want sex at all.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

oops duplicate post


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Marduk said:


> Uh...
> 
> She's only with him because the other guy dumped her. She enjoyed having sex with those other guys. She doesn't with him.
> 
> ...


I sure missed that part, so thanks. It supports my theory. And you're right that this is an (sexual) attraction issue. I know I can't be sexually attracted to a person I don't enjoy having sex with, not even if I find them physically attractive.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

attempt 3
I'm trying hard to sat this without offending 90% of the forum. 
So let's just pretend that it is just me. I don't actually want to have sex with any . . . . . . thing, that hates the idea of sex with me. It offends my ethics. It's Rapey. And spending a lot of time and education and effort trying to please the person that you want to rape is Creepy Stalkerish. Who cares who or what she wants to have sex with? She and only she are interested in that. If she can't convince my tiny lizard brain that she wants to do it with me (and more than once) Then Mr. Happy is Mr. Nappy.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

badsanta said:


> People are who they are, and the notion that something needs to be fixed often will only serve to make the problem worse.
> 
> My advice would be to acknowledge that your wife has zero libido and let her know that it does not effect the love you have love for her, but that as a result you struggle to feel loved by her. Let her know that she does not need to be shamed for having no libido. Have a conversation about what you each need from one another to feel loved.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. it is unrealistic to expect anyone to become someone else after marriage. Best marrying the correct person in the first place. That means a good investigation of whether the person meets your expectations or not. If not leave.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

I remember my mother watching TV, something about a woman trying to get a man who didn’t want her. She couldn’t understand why you’d want someone who didn’t want you. I thought, “I don’t care if a Lamborghini wants me, only whether I want it.” I no longer hold that view, though.

If your wife doesn’t desire you because of your bad history and you’re just a convenient roommate to her now, it may be beyond repair.

The fact that she wanted to leave you for the other man, rather than just enjoying some fun on the side, is a bad sign.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Great responses everyone. Here are some of my responsive thoughts:

Neko: Thanks so much. Once she agreed to MC, I definitely backed off. It's not that I was heavily pressuring her at all, I just started kindly asking, literally one time. If she said no or that she wasn't into it or made any excuse, I accepted it. I was just hoping she would start to see that she was coming up with an excuse every single day/time, not just occasionally. Whether that helped or not, we've moved on, so I'm laying off. I'm not trying to torture her or make her feel terrible at all, and now that we're onto the MC plan, there is no point in making her potentially feel worse.

To those who suggested that hoping she'll just do it for my sake alone, I get it. I hate that notion as well. In fact, the few times she has done the whole, "Ugh... fine. Go ahead, just make it quick" type of thing, I've usually declined. Someone else said it here, but that's like the least sexy thing in the world. That would just feel waaay too "rapey," even if I do have her permission. Obviously I want her to be into it, but if she isn't and she's just doing it as a gesture of love/respect for me, then it has to at least feel welcome I guess?

To those who said I shouldn't try to force her to do something she absolutely isn't willing to do, I agree with that as well. I'm not supporting the idea of MC with the goal of getting a therapist to make her have sex with me. I'm wanting to see if there is anything else going on that is keeping her from wanting to be intimate with me. Basically, is it all depression? Is it something I'm doing or treating her wrong? Is it hormonal? Is it something from the past holding us back that we can work through? Basically I'm wanting to see if there is anything we can do to solve our intimacy problem first. If all of that is totally fine, and she's just not willing to put forth any effort, then I'm not interested in forcing her to do anything. Including MC itself. I told her when I caught her in the EA two years ago that we need to either get into MC or we need to separate again. It was her choice based on what I was willing to tolerate. Obviously I just didn't follow through, until now.

For Starfires: I really appreciate your perspective. As I mentioned, I don't want to force her into anything. I also totally understand that sexual enjoyment for men is very different than it is for women sometimes. She and I have had good sex and bad. In my past experiences with women, I've been told I'm very good in that department, but again it's been a while so who knows. I've read books on tips and tricks, how to go down on a woman, how to focus on her pleasure first, etc. I know most of it comes down to communication because I have seen for myself how every woman can be different. With that said, I don't think me being bad in bed is the whole problem here.

For those of you pointing out that she was perfectly willing to be sexually available for the various affairs, it's a good point, but here is my thought. For the one affair that lasted long term, the one that occurred during our separation while we were in divorce proceedings, I know from having found most of their chat conversations that eventually the sex dropped out of their relationship as well, very quickly in fact. For the EA, where there was no real love feelings involved, she was never pushing anything sexual at all either. So for what it's worth, I believe her eagerness for any sexual contact with any of them was almost entirely based on the excitement of it being a new, "naughty" illicit relationship. Which I can completely understand the element of excitement that might come from breaking the rules, sneaking around, trying to not get caught, a totally new person that fills you with butterflies, etc. But again, I know even that faded in time. Plus I would think if it was JUST me, then wouldn't she still masterbate?

Gotta go for now, but thanks so much guys.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Santa,
While your intentions be pure - your advice seems frightful to me. 

The assertion that she has zero libido is an INCREDIBLY ego protective move. It lays the entirety of the missing desire at her door. Note: This is a woman who was actively using a vibrator while not having sex with CD, who had a BLAST having sex with other men. There has never been much sexual connection in this marriage - ever and no evidence this is a lack of her sex drive. And much evidence that she does not feel sexual attraction, nor the desire to please him, nor the desire for his non sexual touch. 

And if you don't think that she lost a lot of respect for him - after he had two more children with her - and proceeded to carry on and on about how incredibly important sex is to him..... Well - then we don't see this situation in a remotely similar manner. 

This is comparable to the other poster who wants CD to ask her if she likes sex with him. If I blast a non verbal message at you daily - for years - and you then ask me a question like that... 

If I was the wife I wouldn't just see you as unloving and oblivious of me - but as fearful and very protective of your ego...




badsanta said:


> People are who they are, and the notion that something needs to be fixed often will only serve to make the problem worse.
> 
> My advice would be to acknowledge that your wife has zero libido and let her know that it does not effect the love you have love for her, but that as a result you struggle to feel loved by her. Let her know that she does not need to be shamed for having no libido. Have a conversation about what you each need from one another to feel loved.
> 
> ...


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Tasorundo said:


> If I had to guess, I would say your past has broken any sexual desire she had for you. Not that she didn't play a part, but as she indulged your fantasies, as you made her into a hot wife, she loathed you for it. Even if she was turned on, she hates you for that, for making her into something she never wanted to be.
> 
> I don't know if you can salvage it, but it would require some serious counseling. It is likely that she is not even sure why she hates the thought of sex with you so much.
> 
> ...


CD.
This is also as I see it, she is with shame, AGAINST you. She like most welcome the compliments and was given the kibble's of a fantasy (and only fantasy) but because your insistence and maybe beaten her down over time. To please you you crossed the line of her perceived sacred gift that was to be yours, and yours only.

And her getting with you right after him (was possibly her lowest point of her life) because of her shame to maybe she wanted to feel it was not real. But is was and therefore open the doors to something real. And if her affair partner would have left his wife you would not be here and she would be a memory of one of your choices.

And then she feels not just guilty but dirty (possibly because of your wants and desires) she may feel that if you were willing to offer her away she no longer wants to be desired by you. Yes and has protected her interest by having children and one day will leave you. Why did you not respect your role as a husband only and not indulge something that could have been her line in the sand. You stated that she was (she was very susceptible)

As far as the IC/MC you may not get the results, someone has already said you cannot make anyone healed if their heart is not in it. You may not see this post of any meaningful way for you. But l am speaking this is possibly the way your wife feels. (From another man's view).

I wish you the best in your marriage and should your wife stay you should ask her what YOU can do for her! And not the other way around.

Just something to think on.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

One thing that so many of these threads have in common is trying to figure out what the other spouse is thinking. People need to communicate. Many years ago, one of my SILs said that she can’t believe the things my wife and I say to each other. But it’s so much easier than constantly lying to each other and playing these games.

I hope you can get your W to admit whatever is really going on. If she won’t, you’ll have to make a tough decision.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Resentment really can run just that deeply as the guys are saying.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

You brought two more children into this **** show?

ffs


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

StarFires said:


> I absolutely loathe the "just do it" mentality and expectation, and you want her to just do it. I know you're at your wit's end to understand why she won't, but I think it's a bad idea to force her into marriage counseling. I know you're exactly forcing her, but you kind of are since you know she doesn't want to do.
> 
> I guess that all means I don't believe in expecting a person to do things they don't want to do. I believe only in the fact that people can only control themselves and their own actions. Nobody has any business trying to force or control the actions of the others. Maybe you'll strike eureka one day but you more likely won't. So, if you don't get what you need, then I don't understand you being, or at least remaining, with a wife who doesn't want any sexual contact with you. I don't get people spending years suffering like that or spending any time at all trying to convince or force their spouse into it.
> 
> ...


listen really good to this. It's spot on. Don't ever negotiate, threaten, coerce, or persuade your partner to do anything. Adjust your actions (and many need complete adjustments) and your spouse will follow. 

you're issue is not of sex and intimacy. Your wife is plenty sexual and probably likes sex more than you do (i always found that most women love sex as much or more than men) she just doesn't like sex with you. You're issue is she doesn't have an ounce of respect for you. So when you ask why she wouldn't do simple things like a handjob, it's because she doesnt' respect you as a man. Women need a man to protect them, to give them toe curling grabbing the sheets orgasms once in awhile, to fix things; they DONT need or respect a man who fetches everything for them or does all the housework. They may say they do, but trust me, they don't.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Mybabysgotit said:


> listen really good to this. It's spot on. Don't ever negotiate, threaten, coerce, or persuade your partner to do anything. Adjust your actions (and many need complete adjustments) and your spouse will follow.
> 
> 
> 
> you're issue is not of sex and intimacy. Your wife is plenty sexual and probably likes sex more than you do (i always found that most women love sex as much or more than men) she just doesn't like sex with you. You're issue is she doesn't have an ounce of respect for you. So when you ask why she wouldn't do simple things like a handjob, it's because she doesnt' respect you as a man. Women need a man to protect them, to give them toe curling grabbing the sheets orgasms once in awhile, to fix things; they DONT need or respect a man who fetches everything for them or does all the housework. They may say they do, but trust me, they don't.



Starfires suggests it’s probably that W doesn’t enjoy the sex because of technique. You think it’s probably that she doesn’t respect him as a man.

Women in his past told him that he was good. Were they lying or didn’t know what good is?

What percentage of men know techniques to please a woman with intercourse? I’m guessing not many if most women have multiple partners yet 75% never have a vaginal orgasm.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

As someone who lived through a 20 year sexless marriage, the first thing that comes to mind is a lack of respect on her part for you. 

My ex-husband was a very kind and gentle man who was extremely passive. No leadership. No opinions/preferences. No initiating. 

I ended up feeling like I was living with a woman - and it pissed me off. I completely identify with your wife being angry. I was angry all the time.

During our separation, he told me he just thought I wasn't interested - which was complete and utter BS.

I was the one trying to schedule sex. I was the one intiating conversations and asking about his sexual preferences. He was the one putting up walls.

So I shut down. 

The last time I initiated sex and he turned me down, inside my head, I said to myself, 'That's it. I will never, ever have sex with this person again.'

And I didn't.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> MEM2020: Sounds reasonable. I guess I just need to figure out how to move forward now. Can her libido be salvaged? Can she commit to respecting my needs going forward? If necessary, can I learn what ways I contributed to this and change accordingly as well? Or can I push it to the point of separation or divorce and potentially move on if need be? We'll see I guess.


No.

No.

No.

No.

Now that is out of the way...what do you intend to do?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Santa,
> While your intentions be pure - your advice seems frightful to me.
> 
> The assertion that she has zero libido is an INCREDIBLY ego protective move. It lays the entirety of the missing desire at her door. Note: This is a woman who was actively using a vibrator while not having sex with CD, who had a BLAST having sex with other men. There has never been much sexual connection in this marriage - ever and no evidence this is a lack of her sex drive. And much evidence that she does not feel sexual attraction, nor the desire to please him, nor the desire for his non sexual touch.
> ...


Thanks for sharing that perspective. I had never considered looking at it that way before. 

It is also an indication that we are all guilty of projecting our own reality into the advice we give. In my opinion a strong libido or lack thereof is not something that someone can control, it is just an attribute that makes someone who they are that may change arbitrarily over time. Yet there is so much research on ways to improve a libido or better manage a hyper active one that would indicate otherwise. In my own life I have experienced that someone's libido is what it is. 

I don't really prescribe to the notion that the OP's wife likes sex, just not with him. I would strongly disagree with that. Not because I know the OP, but just because the notion of enjoyable sex in a long term relationship over many years is something that everyone struggles with at some point or another. It often boils down to lack of self esteem manifesting itself in ways that inhibit self development and that destroys happiness via daily comparison to the lives of others. Extremely talented people often get imposter syndrome and feel totally incompetent in their lives. Sometimes people make themselves so miserable that they engage in self destructive acts as a way for temporary happiness and escape. So when I hear that the OP's wife likes sex but just not with her husband, to me that sounds kind of like someone saying an alcoholic is actually a very happy person, but just not when they are sober. My point of view may be extremely flawed and I do have a lot to learn. It is just the reality I see around me repeating itself decade after decade after decade for almost everyone I know.

Perhaps I am projecting that....

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

CraigBesuden said:


> Starfires suggests it’s probably that W doesn’t enjoy the sex because of technique. You think it’s probably that she doesn’t respect him as a man.
> 
> Women in his past told him that he was good. Were they lying or didn’t know what good is?
> 
> ...


No, I don't think it's his technique, however, it could be a small part of it. What I was agreeing to is that desire cannot be negotiated or persuaded (especially through therapy), it must be genuine. He must change his behavior so she can change hers. 

On your other point, I have never been with a woman who has NOT had a vaginal orgasm, ever. So if the rate is 75%, then my experiences must be statistically astronomical, which I don't believe is the case. I believe most women orgasm when having sex. And before you ask, yes, a man can feel a woman's orgasm. It's easy enough for her to fake the contractions, but not so easy at such a rate that an orgasm produces as it is very distinct and the breathing is very different, not to mention all the other signs.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

cdbaker said:


> Mr. Nail: I've occasionally slept on the couch or spare bed, just because I'm so frustrated/infuriated by the situation on a given night. I have tried mostly ignoring her, stopping all of the little things I do to try to make her feel loved. I've done so for months at a time in fact, but it never seemed to make much difference. *When I'm treating her like a Queen she does seem happier and will occasionally give me praises, thanking me, hugs, kisses, etc. * Those are all appreciated, but pretty meaningless when the single biggest issue is so knowingly ignored.
> 
> I've read the Married Man's Sex Primer 2011 as well. Good book, and I employed a lot of it's suggestions, but it never seemed to change anything.


let me guess, you were predominantly raised with more women in the house than men. It's not a good thing when you are looking for validation by your wife. She really WANTS to look to you for validation, but this relationship seems backwards. I see that a lot when boys are raised without a father and a bunch of sisters and mom. If and when you garner her respect, she will go out of her way to make you happy. She will crave sex with you.

Women love sex, more so than men in my opinion. Many husbands jump to "low libido" or "asexual" when sex goes south, but most of the time it's not the case.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> Women in his past told him that he was good. Were they lying or didn’t know what good is?


I deliberately avoided his response because I didn't want to keep grinding at it. But since you brought it up the answer is yes, they were lying. Okay, it's not necessarily a given that they were lying. It's just that women lie more often about that kind of thing than they tell the truth since they know the truth would be hurtful. And, you have to remember how many men roll over and ask "Was it good for you?" What is she supposed to say? If she tells him, he will be hurt, so she avoids telling him. But some of those guys actually want a response. They want their ego stroked, so she lies.

I lied many times. They shouldn't have asked.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

StarFires said:


> I deliberately avoided his response because I didn't want to keep grinding at it. But since you brought it up the answer is yes, they were lying. Okay, it's not necessarily a given that they were lying. It's just that women lie more often about that kind of thing than they tell the truth since they know the truth would be hurtful. And, you have to remember how many men roll over and ask "Was it good for you?" What is she supposed to say? If she tells him, he will be hurt, so she avoids telling him. But some of those guys actually want a response. They want their ego stroked, so she lies.
> 
> I lied many times. He shouldn't have asked.


Right again starfires. If you have to ask if it was good, it wasn't. Women lie all the time. They also get upset and kinda get mad at you if they don't finish.....men don't do that.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Mybabysgotit said:


> Right again starfires. If you have to ask if it was good, it wasn't. Women lie all the time. They also get upset and kinda get mad at you if they don't finish.....men don't do that.


Yes, I got angry many times too. Not finishing is terrible because it builds and builds and then he's gone, which means he had no consideration for me. Pathetic are the men who think sex is just for their own pleasure, and there are plenty of them. Way too many. Some of them come here complaining wife doesn't want to have sex with them. 

No, that was not a hint at the OP. I wouldn't know who it applies to and who it doesn't apply to. Just saying there are lots of men who don't know any better or are that narcissistic.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> Yes, I got angry many times too. Not finishing is terrible because it builds and builds and then he's gone, which means he had no consideration for me. Pathetic are the men who think sex is just for their own pleasure, and there are plenty of them. Way too many. Some of them come here complaining wife doesn't want to have sex with them.
> 
> No, that was not a hint at the OP. *I wouldn't know who it applies to and who it doesn't apply to.* Just saying there are lots of men who don't know any better or are that narcissistic.


Then how do you that applies to "some of them [who] come here complaining wife doesn't wan't to have sex with them"?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> I deliberately avoided his response because I didn't want to keep grinding at it. But since you brought it up the answer is yes, they were lying. Okay, it's not necessarily a given that they were lying. It's just that women lie more often about that kind of thing than they tell the truth since they know the truth would be hurtful. And, you have to remember how many men roll over and ask "Was it good for you?" *What is she supposed to say? If she tells him, he will be hurt, so she avoids telling him. *But some of those guys actually want a response. They want their ego stroked, so she lies.
> 
> I lied many times. They shouldn't have asked.


I love the rationalization... that it's all about hurting his feelings. 

No. What it's really about is avoiding confrontation.... and avoiding any responsibility for being a part of a partnership working together to improve things. 

If it was lousy, he needs to know or else you're only perpetuating mediocrity. You're not helping him and you're not helping yourself. You're just being lazy and avoiding, and you assuage your guilt by deluding yourself into thinking that by denying him valuable information, you're actually "concerned" for his feelings.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rocky,
I agree with your analysis below - and also believe that there is a point where incompatibility needs to be accepted. 

If I’m quantitative I take his statements at face value and multiple 16 years times an annual frequency of 2.5. He’s had 40 opportunities to - audition for the role as her lover. And a fair number were not - full sex. 

As to why she avoids sex so aggressively - only one person knows and she isn’t talking. 

And I’m fairly confident that if CD gives her the choice of working towards a normal sex life - or divorce - she will immediately choose divorce. And I’m fairly confident that he also believes that. 

As far as blame goes - fwiw - he had 13 years of very consistent experience in hand when he chose to add a child and then another. Her conduct has been very stable. 

His actions - remaining in a sexless marriage for 16 years and adding two children late in the marriage - are 180 degrees out of phase with his words which are: having a good sexual relationship is incredibly important to me.

His wife is solely keying off his actions and not his words. Which i believe is common and rational behavior.


*Essentially, for the entirety of my wife and I's married lives, we've lived in a mostly sexless marriage. By that I mean, in nearly 16 years of marriage (separated for about three of those years) we've probably averaged some form of sexual activity maaaaybe two or three times a year, if that. To clarify what "sexual activity" means, I mean literally any kind of sexual activity, ranging from full penetrative sex, to oral sex, hand stuff, playing with toys, etc. *




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I love the rationalization... that it's all about hurting his feelings.
> 
> No. What it's really about is avoiding confrontation.... and avoiding any responsibility for being a part of a partnership working together to improve things.
> 
> If it was lousy, he needs to know or else you're only perpetuating mediocrity. You're not helping him and you're not helping yourself. You're just being lazy and avoiding, and you assuage your guilt by deluding yourself into thinking that by denying him valuable information, you're actually "concerned" for his feelings.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Mybabysgotit said:


> let me guess, you were predominantly raised with more women in the house than men. It's not a good thing when you are looking for validation by your wife. She really WANTS to look to you for validation, but this relationship seems backwards. I see that a lot when boys are raised without a father and a bunch of sisters and mom. If and when you garner her respect, she will go out of her way to make you happy. She will crave sex with you.
> 
> Women love sex, more so than men in my opinion. Many husbands jump to "low libido" or "asexual" when sex goes south, but most of the time it's not the case.


I don't know about the more than men part but I can't object either.

And I think it's mostly true that she will want sex with a man she can respect. I disagree with MEM that she will want a divorce. If he walked out the door today, she'd have a big change of heart in the libido department. Of course, that really does depend on whether she enjoys having sex with him. If she never really enjoyed it, there's nothing to forward to. But she still wouldn't want him to leave. Though I don't doubt there would be a hysterical period of some weeks or months.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Thanks again for the replies. After reading everything, I'll try to make some general responses:

Regarding my performance or ability in bed, I've said before that I really don't know how capable I am and if anything I would just assume that my ability is more on the side of "Meh" than "wow." Why? Because aside from those three years when we were separated and doing our own thing, I just haven't had very much experience to GET better. I would venture to guess that we've had penetrative sex less than 50 or so times. In the slightest defense of myself, I've made it very clear that I'm willing to do anything, I'm not a prude about going down on her, trying different things, taking direction as needed, or opposed to anything really. I've read a few books on the subject as well, knowing full well that on the rare times I have had an opportunity, I'd like it to be as good as possible for her. With that said, also in slight defense of myself, of those "50 or so times," I would venture to guess that maaaybe 10-15 of those times involved her actually being in the mood and wanting sex. The rest were more like various levels of "Sigh... Ok, let's do it" clearly hoping it won't take too long. I'm sure the women here would acknowledge, how good can a guy really be in that circumstance? As for the various women who told me that I was good in bed in the past? Of course it's entirely possible they were lying, or exaggerating, or just trying to make me feel good/confident, etc. Honestly I can't say for sure, it's been a long time. In any case, regardless of how good I am or not, I would certainly LOVE to get better and know I would be extremely willing to make changes/improvements, motivated to do what it takes to satisfy her, but obviously I don't really get any opportunities to do so.

By the way, I used to go down on her from time to time. My understanding is that for many women that is the most effective way to get a women to orgasm, and I learned all kinds of tricks. She really wasn't into it most of the time, but one day when she orgasmed from it she basically pee'd on me, or ejaculated, or whatever you want to call it. (My understanding is that female ejaculate is mostly urine, but whatever) I didn't care a bit, I mostly smiled and laughed a bit about it. She was embarrassed and I told her it was totally fine, no big deal at all, I'm glad she enjoyed it. But she really hasn't allowed anyone to go down on her ever since, and this was probably 12-13 years ago.

I'll also say it again, aside from a handful of occurrences (most of which occurred during her 2nd pregnancy when she actually did discover a bit of a libido), she nearly never initiated herself. I say that to clarify that I don't think she actually had a high or normal libido early on, but my terrible performances made her suddenly lose it. And again, having seen a glimpse of the relationships she had with her AP's, they were not uber sexual either, at least not beyond the initial high's of the naughtiness of cheating and feeling desirable from a new person.

So... again, I still feel like there is a seriously low libido here. Even when she was free to masturbate, she did so somewhat seldom. She has a toy she LOVES and sometimes she would use it while we had sex, which I was totally fine with, but that's been gone for a while now since the third child. Incidentally, she has always had post-partum depression, and bits of regular depression sprinkled in as well throughout her whole life, and I know that impacts one's libido, especially when you're on anti-depressants which she has often been on.

I know some of you have questioned why we elected to have more kids. For starters, I believed her when we got back together about six years ago when she acknowledged that the sex life was a problem and that she was committed to working on that, both herself and to opening the communication with me to tell me how and what I can do to help. She did make efforts too, for a year or so, to the point that we decided we wanted a 2nd child. Then during that pregnancy, her libido was actually pretty fantastic. In fact I would use this word to describe her sexual attitude at that time, "generous." in that often times she would, without me asking or even hinting at it, that maybe she wasn't feeling sexy at the moment but wanted to give me a handjob anyway. Stuff like that. Just amazing stuff for us. Things were slowly getting better, very slowly. SO we decided to have the third child on a bit of a whim, and that pregnancy was terrible, and so has the period since. First, the third child has been a terrible handful, just crying all the time and not sleeping well so I KNOW that impacts any couple's sex life, but the third child is now 14 months old and again, we've had sex exactly one time since then. That one time was the "It's our first time out of the country, we aught to have sex so we can say we've ****ed outside of the country."

One or two of you mentioned the respect issue. I totally agree, several of the books I have read talks about that. It makes total sense, women want to feel loved, protected, they want to feel they can rely on their man, that he fixes things, is confident, is WORTHY of her respect and conversely, her sex. I get it. I like to think I do a very good job of most of those things, but when it comes to sexual issues, how could I possibly feel confident? How many times can I try to romance her all day, send her gifts delivered to her work, make her a beautiful dinner or take her somewhere nice/romantic, then try to seductively seduce her and get completely shot down? How many times can I try and fail but still feel confident about myself? How can she possibly see my seduction efforts as genuine when she KNOWS I'm a failure in that department? And more importantly, how can I possibly earn that level of confidence and respect again?

So again, I know MC won't make miracles here. I'm not expecting that. I'm stepping back from her a bit because there is no need to push the issue now. I'm hoping that if there is something I'm doing wrong, maybe the MC will catch it and enlighten me. Same thing for her. Believe me we have been to an MC in the past who basically just told her to literally go home and play with my penis for 15 minutes a night to get more comfortable with it and see if that helped. REALLY? Does any woman here think that could possible help? We stopped seeing her after a few appointments, lol.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mybabysgotit said:


> No, I don't think it's his technique, however, it could be a small part of it. What I was agreeing to is that desire cannot be negotiated or persuaded (especially through therapy), it must be genuine. He must change his behavior so she can change hers.
> 
> On your other point, I have never been with a woman who has NOT had a vaginal orgasm, ever. So if the rate is 75%, then my experiences must be statistically astronomical, which I don't believe is the case. I believe most women orgasm when having sex. And before you ask, yes, a man can feel a woman's orgasm. It's easy enough for her to fake the contractions, but not so easy at such a rate that an orgasm produces as it is very distinct and the breathing is very different, not to mention all the other signs.


Start a thread on vaginal orgasms please. I would like to ask you some questions.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I love the rationalization... that it's all about hurting his feelings.
> 
> No. What it's really about is avoiding confrontation.... and avoiding any responsibility for being a part of a partnership working together to improve things.
> 
> If it was lousy, he needs to know or else you're only perpetuating mediocrity. You're not helping him and you're not helping yourself. You're just being lazy and avoiding, and you assuage your guilt by deluding yourself into thinking that by denying him valuable information, you're actually "concerned" for his feelings.


She is accurate about most women in this. Might not jive with the old sensibilities but it's true.:wink2:


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Your life is complicated enough at this point. Don't have any more children with her.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

There's a lot in your post I could comment on but I won't. All I will say is.....



cdbaker said:


> Believe me we have been to an MC in the past who basically just told her to literally go home and play with my penis for 15 minutes a night to get more comfortable with it and see if that helped. REALLY?


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Start a thread on vaginal orgasms please. I would like to ask you some questions.


You start the thread with your questions and mention/direct him to it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

StarFires said:


> There's a lot in your post I could comment on but I won't. All I will say is.....
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Good Lord!

She obviously doesn't have problems playing with a penis. Just not his.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Good Lord!
> 
> She obviously doesn't have problems playing with a penis. Just his.


He says she didn't much according to their emails. So I don't get it, but I know I hate the implications that she isn't capable of sexual pleasure as if her genitals don't work or something. It makes no sense and is way too often the assumption. I just think she still hasn't found *it* yet, whatever it is for her. I didn't find it right away either. Or, she's awfully resentful, which is entirely possible.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

It's all so individual. I totally would've gotten off on a suggestion like that. Take him home, tie him to a chair, blindfold him. Hell yeah. 

But I can almost guarantee that my ex-husband would've come up with some excuse to say no to that.





StarFires said:


> There's a lot in your post I could comment on but I won't. All I will say is.....





cdbaker said:


> Believe me we have been to an MC in the past who basically just told her to literally *go home and play with my penis for 15 minutes a night to get more comfortable with it* and see if that helped. REALLY? Does any woman here think that could possible help?


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

> I would venture to guess that maaaybe 10-15 of those times involved her actually being in the mood and wanting sex. The rest were more like various levels of "Sigh... Ok, let's do it" clearly hoping it won't take too long. I'm sure the women here would acknowledge, how good can a guy really be in that circumstance?


My wife is recovering from surgery. She didn’t want to have sex, she recently said she wasn’t ready yet when I initiated, but agreed to do it a few days later. She had that “only cuz I have to” attitude. After just two rounds of orgasms (five orgasms), she asked me to stop because her body would be exhausted if we continued. I wasn’t able to fully get it up for various reasons, so I didn’t get to try Starfires PIV instructions, but my wife was happy with the oral.

Instead of speculating “am I good,” ask yourself whether you know the techniques to hit the various spots and whether you were using those techniques. If not, you aren’t good.



cdbaker said:


> How many times can I try to romance her all day, send her gifts delivered to her work, make her a beautiful dinner or take her somewhere nice/romantic, then try to seductively seduce her and get completely shot down?


Stop doing that stuff.



> How many times can I try and fail but still feel confident about myself? How can she possibly see my seduction efforts as genuine when she KNOWS I'm a failure in that department? And more importantly, how can I possibly earn that level of confidence and respect again?.


Tell her that you know the problem is that you aren’t good in bed. You want to improve and want to learn techniques, but she needs to give you the chance to try. Then apply the techniques for cunnilingus and PIV that Starfires posted. A spot, O spot, G spot. As she noted, if you aren’t getting her off with cunnilingus every time then you are doing it wrong.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

ConanHub: I don't think you're reading my replies where I mention that the evidence suggests that while she certainly did engage sexually with several of her AP's, it seems it was mostly in the flirty, naughty, early stages while trying to win/maintain their affections. After they became longer term, or in one case basically ended the marriage and she was free to be with the AP or anyone else for that matter, their relationship became mostly sexless as well.

Craig: I appreciate your input, and I am open to the possibility, but I just reeaallly don't think that (potentially) extraordinarily rare bad sex is what has kept her from wanting to engage with me sexually for the near entirety of our marriage. I honestly think if I did what you suggest that she would look at me with a nasty offended glare and say, "That is NOT why I don't want to have sex." and then roll over and be mad at me for a day or two.

Besides... Feel free to tell me if I'm wrong, but IF my being bad in bed was the main problem, then wouldn't you think she would be masturbating at least somewhat regularly? Or giving me suggestions to get better? Or heck, finding some side **** behind my back?

Again though, I'm 95% confident that she isn't engaging with anyone else in an inappropriate manner right now.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> She is accurate about most women in this. Might not jive with the old sensibilities but it's true.:wink2:


She may be right that that's what "most women" *do*, but that still doesn't mean that's what they _should_ do or that there's some kind of noble intent behind doing it.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

cdbaker said:


> Why on earth is she not willing to give even an ounce of energy to me?


I’m sorry. I truly am.

I know the sort of pain you are dealing with. I know it hurts deeply, and can occupy one’s life.
I crushed myself with the weight of that question for years.


Some day you will understand having an answer to that question isn’t so relevant, after all. It distracts you now, and your pursuit of an answer will take you not where you need to go.

The useful questions, at this point, are about yourself, and why you are accepting so little possibility for joy and contentment in this life. 

Right now, the focus is on her, and what needs to change in her behavior before you can be happy. It works better to focus on you, and what you need to do to be sane and healthy and happy — whether she changes at all, whether the past still haunts your relationship in this way or that or not, whether you know the bounds of her past behavior or not, and whether any of it is beyond the pale or explainable or forgivable or whatever.

Time’s a-wasting. Don’t wait for anyone to decide whether your happiness is worth their effort or not. Work on yourself, and prepare to be happy regardless of whether they want to share experiences with you or not.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

cdbaker said:


> ConanHub: I don't think you're reading my replies where I mention that the evidence suggests that while she certainly did engage sexually with several of her AP's, it seems it was mostly in the flirty, naughty, early stages while trying to win/maintain their affections. After they became longer term, or in one case basically ended the marriage and she was free to be with the AP or anyone else for that matter, their relationship became mostly sexless as well.
> 
> Craig: I appreciate your input, and I am open to the possibility, but I just reeaallly don't think that (potentially) extraordinarily rare bad sex is what has kept her from wanting to engage with me sexually for the near entirety of our marriage. I honestly think if I did what you suggest that she would look at me with a nasty offended glare and say, "That is NOT why I don't want to have sex." and then roll over and be mad at me for a day or two.
> 
> ...


Sorry for missing that detail.

If she is healthy physically, it has to be psychological in my opinion.

I can't recall if she had a strict religious background or sexual or other abuse before she met you?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm a bit of an old cynic and I've been in your shoes... it amazes me how she managed to find her libido again when she wanted more children and then... let me guess? Nada. Zilch. She doesn't love you and she has no respect for you. If she did, if she were attracted to you, she would have sex with you. It's pretty simple. She gives you some occasionally to keep you there until the kids have grown up.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

StarFires said:


> Yes, I got angry many times too. Not finishing is terrible because it builds and builds and then he's gone, which means he had no consideration for me. *Pathetic are the men who think sex is just for their own pleasure, and there are plenty of them. Way too many. Some of them come here complaining wife doesn't want to have sex with them.
> 
> No, that was not a hint at the OP. I wouldn't know who it applies to and who it doesn't apply to. Just saying there are lots of men who don't know any better or are that narcissistic.*


Of course I want to admit that my experience with other men is ZERO and I only know what I read, so @StarFires you may indeed be right that there are many men that just want to get off and be done and could care less about the woman's needs. 

Another perspective for the OP and from what I have read here about many husbands... the men here would want nothing more than to be able to please their wives. If anything many may want this too much. So much so that it takes away the emotional connection and perverts it into something empty and performance driven for bigger and better orgasms. 

Some women after many years in a LTR may cry after having an orgasm. Most men will probably associate that with an orgasm so extremely powerful that it just made her emotional. Few men may notice that perhaps the women felt used and pushed to do something that made her feel uncomfortable with herself afterwards. 

Perhaps this is what pushed the OP to try hotwifing, an effort to please his wife more even if it had to be done indirectly via an open marriage. She enjoyed it, but the comment about therapy suggested that she enjoyed it because the men were far beneath her meaning that she knew for sure she was attractive to them. This suggests that engaging in sex with her husband is full of self debt about her body image and being uncomfortable being seen nude by him. 

My theory would be that the OP, by encouraging his wife to sleep with other men only served to validate her fear that she was not good enough for him and that she should sleep with men of a lower social status. Meanwhile he feared the same in that he was not good enough for her and he just wanted her to experience more pleasure. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

cdbaker said:


> Craig: I appreciate your input, and I am open to the possibility, but I just reeaallly don't think that (potentially) extraordinarily rare bad sex is what has kept her from wanting to engage with me sexually for the near entirety of our marriage. I honestly think if I did what you suggest that she would look at me with a nasty offended glare and say, "That is NOT why I don't want to have sex." and then roll over and be mad at me for a day or two.


If she said that, then I’d ask, “then what’s wrong?” I don’t understand why so many husbands and wives don’t communicate, tell each other so many “white lies,” etc. You really need to know what the deal is in order to fix it.

What was your sex life like with W before you got married? Did she bait and switch you?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

CD,

Let’s use this as a working hypothesis, because I think your observations seem to support it:
1. C2 isn’t all that keen on sex
2. Even when she finds someone new, she quickly loses sexual interest in them 

No question that, there are people who fit that exact profile. 

If she therefore lacks interest in sex with you - simply because that is who she is - the question becomes very simple: If not raw desire, than what is her motivation for having sex with you?

True love is the desire to please. Sometimes true love also includes the desire to avoid displeasing, and sometimes the avoidance of displeasing a partner is solely self preservation. 

And yes - true love drives a lot of generous behavior, including generous sexual behavior. 

At some level you know that your wife doesn’t really love or desire you. But you knew that during three years of separation and yet you came back to her. Or let her return to you. 

Why?





cdbaker said:


> ConanHub: I don't think you're reading my replies where I mention that the evidence suggests that while she certainly did engage sexually with several of her AP's, it seems it was mostly in the flirty, naughty, early stages while trying to win/maintain their affections. After they became longer term, or in one case basically ended the marriage and she was free to be with the AP or anyone else for that matter, their relationship became mostly sexless as well.
> 
> Craig: I appreciate your input, and I am open to the possibility, but I just reeaallly don't think that (potentially) extraordinarily rare bad sex is what has kept her from wanting to engage with me sexually for the near entirety of our marriage. I honestly think if I did what you suggest that she would look at me with a nasty offended glare and say, "That is NOT why I don't want to have sex." and then roll over and be mad at me for a day or two.
> 
> ...


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

cdbaker said:


> Thanks again for the replies. After reading everything, I'll try to make some general responses:
> 
> Regarding my performance or ability in bed, I've said before that I really don't know how capable I am and if anything I would just assume that my ability is more on the side of "Meh" than "wow." Why? Because aside from those three years when we were separated and doing our own thing, I just haven't had very much experience to GET better. I would venture to guess that we've had penetrative sex less than 50 or so times. In the slightest defense of myself, I've made it very clear that I'm willing to do anything, I'm not a prude about going down on her, trying different things, taking direction as needed, or opposed to anything really. I've read a few books on the subject as well, knowing full well that on the rare times I have had an opportunity, I'd like it to be as good as possible for her. With that said, also in slight defense of myself, of those "50 or so times," I would venture to guess that maaaybe 10-15 of those times involved her actually being in the mood and wanting sex. The rest were more like various levels of "Sigh... Ok, let's do it" clearly hoping it won't take too long. I'm sure the women here would acknowledge, how good can a guy really be in that circumstance? As for the various women who told me that I was good in bed in the past? Of course it's entirely possible they were lying, or exaggerating, or just trying to make me feel good/confident, etc. Honestly I can't say for sure, it's been a long time. In any case, regardless of how good I am or not, I would certainly LOVE to get better and know I would be extremely willing to make changes/improvements, motivated to do what it takes to satisfy her, but obviously I don't really get any opportunities to do so.
> 
> ...


*You DONT need to spend money on a MC. It's worthless. Best you get is some sex for a week or so before she reverts back to normal. *


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Piece of Sky: Great advice. Honestly I'm viewing MC as the opportunity for me to learn more about myself as well and maybe get some advice on things I should be doing differently, again for myself. My view of marriage however has always been that if you give 100% of yourself to your spouse, as we SHOULD do, then your spouse will be more inclined to do the same. Obviously, that may have been bad information.

ConanHub: I'd say she is mostly healthy physically speaking, but she has suffered from varying levels of depression ever since she was a teenager, and has gone on and off of various anti-depressants over the years. I think she isn't on anything right now, but she was just a few months ago. She has also gained a lot of weight in the last two or three years, which absolutely matches up with the worst of the sexual "dry spell" we've had. But I wouldn't say she is fat either. She's 5'5" and was typically around 135-140 pounds but in the last couple of years she has increased to 165ish. She grew up going to church with a single mom, as I also grew up going to church, but no I would never look at her family and say it was a "strict religious upbringing."

Badsanta: Yep, I can totally imagine a lot of men out there who, probably without sinister intentions, are just extremely selfish in bed. I've known a guy or two who was more or less happy with their sex lives while also very casually acknowledging that their partners rarely if ever got off themselves. They believed their significant other's just literally could not orgasm, or just didn't care for sex and were perfectly satisfied with just doing it for them. I don't think they felt that they were being selfish, but I do think they were WAY too willing to draw those conclusions about their SI's and that maybe they just assumed that because O's weren't easy for them based on doing strictly what got themselves off, then it must be impossible.

In any case, I think you have a good point. You're right in that the few times we have had sex where I felt she might potentially be "into it" enough for her to enjoy it, meaning not just "hurry up and finish," I have often felt the extreme pressure to try to help her enjoy it as much as possible. Usually I don't even get off those times because I'm so focused on her face, trying to read her expressions and reactions to whatever I or she am doing, trying to help her get off. I imagine you're right, it becomes entirely performance based and not about any sort of connection.

And yes I agree with you as well about the hotwifing thing and the ramifications of that. For me, sinking into porn led to even further perversions, and I was just DESPERATE to try anything that might help reignite her libido. When I suggested it, I don't think she was excited at the prospect of sex with another male body, but it made her feel desirable and attractive to another person, not just the same guy who she didn't really believe when he (I) would say that she was absolutely desirable. Posting pics online and getting compliments were a rush for her. So yes, she enjoyed the sex in those moments, but would feel extreme guilt afterwards, even if she was open to it again a week or so later. We had one MC who I think really understood it well, he explained that even though she went along with everything totally willingly, her being shared with other men absolutely made her feel like she wasn't enough for me, like she wasn't valued or treasured by me, and that I was willing to simply use her body to get my rocks off visually with other guys, valued no more than any porn start in a video player is. He explained that I basically sacrificed her virtue. I very much recall how that explanation hit me like a stone, as every bit of it made sense, and she enthusiastically agreed with his view of the situation. It was obviously all a bad mistake, and shortly there after it certainly contributed to the marital breakdown that led to her affairs and the long separation. This is one part of why I look back at those affairs and feel that, while I am certainly not majority responsible for her reprehensible actions, I certainly share some responsibility for having left her in a state of feeling so worthless that she was extremely susceptible to the advances of other men.

Craig: You should understand that I've tried to address this stuff with her very directly many times over the years, including a couple of times this year. I've asked her directly what is wrong? Why she has no interest in sex? Why she has an excuse for months on end? I've asked her if it's me? If she is not attracted to me? If I'm a bad lay? If she wants something or someONE else? If sex is painful? I've asked her so many variations of all of these questions and I assure you, every single time she immediately looks like is emotionally beat, looking like she is simultaneously ashamed, angry, frustrated and exhausted that it's being brought up again. Usually I get a couple of one or two word responses, followed by her expressing that she doesn't want to talk about it and rolls over in bed or walks away. I'm saying she does everything in her power to avoid this type of discussion and tries to end it asap, every time, no matter how I directly state it.

Before we got married, we were both trying to be good Christians. We dated, hung out, spent loads of time together, and very much tried to avoid situations where we might compromise our values. It didn't always work, I think we had sex probably a couple times per year during the roughly 3 years we dated before we go married. Those few times were, I think, pretty good for teenage sex, and I'm certain she enjoyed it too. We would slip up and then **** like rabbits for a day, then the next day acknowledge that we shouldn't have done that and recommit to trying to wait. Looking back, I'd say there is a darn good chance that avoiding sex was way easier for her than it was for me. So what I'm saying here is that there is no way for me to know for certain what her libido was like back then, but I'm guessing it wasn't much higher then either.

MEM2020: Good questions. This is why I've been increasingly believing that, if my feeling is correct about her having an extremely low natural libido, then she must either not love me, respect me, or both. She could still love me, but believe that because I've proven so willing to just let her get away with putting no effort into our sex life that there is no reason for her to put forth that effort now, which means she has no respect for me. If she respected me, I would think she would feel that I deserve that effort on her part. If she doesn't love me, then I would think that whether she respects me or not wouldn't matter. In that scenario, she would basically just be using me as a good provider and father to our children.

Did I know that during our three years of separation? Well not really no, because again, there were a LOT of reasons to not love or respect me in the years prior to that time. Like I have said, I was young and immature, I was selfish, I was a bit of an ass, I cared more about how friends/family viewed me than I cared about how she viewed me, and I guided her towards the disastrous hotwifing stuff. Heck, while her cheating on me was certainly wrong, it would have made perfect sense for her to leave me. So after we spent two years being truly separated and figuring out a lot of things about ourselves, we basically started dating again for the third year before deciding to get back together. So I know some here have questioned why I would try again with her, but the answer is because I really felt we had matured, and that if I was not longer going to be an ******* husband to her, then our marriage could heal and our sex life would become more "normal" as well, which incidentally is what she promised to me as well. We did have a chat before deciding to move back in together and make the reconciliation official that a healthy sex life was an absolute prerequisite for me, and she acknowledged that completely, just saying that it'll take some time for the healing from the past to happen but that she wanted a healthy normal sex life with me as well. I've tried to remind her of this a couple of times...

Mybabysgotit: Yep, I definitely believe that the quality of my skills in bed has very little to do with my current situation. I also agree that a lot of, if not most women, really do want their men to be the prototypical masculine man. Confidence, taking charge, leading the family, being the protector, taking what they want (within reason, to an extent). I've talked to her about the low libido thing as well. Every doctor she has spoken to has just prescribed her more anti-depressants, saying that chemically speaking there is nothing wrong with her, but that the low libido probably has to do with depression and self esteem issues. To clarify what I meant about the respect issue where I described all of the various things I have done in the past, about how could I possibly build confidence when I have tried so many different things and gotten shot down, I'm not saying that I do all of those things all of the time. As you said, doing that kind of stuff is GOOD every now and then, but not excessively. Of course a woman couldn't respect a man who waits on her hand and foot with roses and chocolates in both hands all the time. So you said to stop doing this stuff, but added it's good to do it sometimes, which is what I'm saying is the situation here. I've tried to do the full on romantic seduction thing maybe a few times a year, it's not a weekly or monthly thing, because I agree, she would be gagging on all of that crap and it would make me appear incredibly desperate and unattractive. Those were special occasion scenarios only.


I'll reiterate what I've said above... I think any line-in-the-sand approach of saying she needs to fix this or I'll divorce her is a bad approach, probably guaranteeing divorce even if there is a way to salvage the sex life. Every time I've ever discussed the problem with her, I don't see dismissal, or uncaring eyes, or pity, or disgust. 
If I did, I probably would have quit a long time ago. I tell her how big of a problem this is and she tells me she doesn't care and to go away? Goodbye, forget that. But no, when I bring this issue up with her I see immediate shame, guilt, pain, frustration and hurt in her eyes and face. She will curl up under a thick blanket pulled up over her face, or walk away and hide in a dark room somewhere. For what it's worth, I believe she recognizes that it's a big problem and feels such guilt/shame about it that she chooses to try to hide from it and make those negative feelings go away as fast as possible by trying to get me to drop it.

Incidentally, and this is worth noting, she has never ever handled any form of criticism well at all. She won't apologize to anyone for anything for example. She just doesn't handle ever being told or made to realize that she's done something wrong or hurtful. I'm not saying she doesn't recognize when she's done something wrong or bad, or that she doesn't feel bad about it, but she just can't manage that feeling of failing well at all. Instead, when she realizes she's screwed up, in a simple way like we all do sometimes, she instead will start trying to make it up to that person by being extra nice instead. My eldest daughter and I have just learned to accept it and understand that's how she is. When she messes up, or is mean or forgets something or lets her anger get the better of her, we know there will never be an apology, but she'll go off and feel bad for a little while and then suddenly be extra special nice for a while instead. It is what it is. I've often thought that this is sort of related to the sex thing. She feels bad, she knows it's a big deal and that she could resolve it with a tiny bit of effort, but her natural reaction to feeling guilt/shame is to run from it instead. Just an idea...

Thanks again everyone.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

cd, my in-laws told me a story about their early marriage, which included the father-in-law pushing the mother-in-law into swinging. She went along with it, because she loved him and most likely felt she had no real choice in the matter. It was years ago, they had 2 kids, how could she survive without him etc.

She never forgave him for that, and it caused issues in their marriage from that point on. I don't know if he ever really apologized for his part in it, or for how it made her feel.

That is why I said that it could be a big part of the problem here. Your wife doesn't sound that different from my mother-in-law.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Tasorundo: Yep, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's part of the issue now. Like I said, I never ever forced the issue, or indicated we had to do that or I couldn't be happy or anything like that, but I also know that it's sort of irrelevant. It was my idea, I started it. I apologized profusely many times back then, it was brought up in therapy shortly there after many times and I've acknowledged everything. Neither she nor I have brought it up in many years either. She's usually the type to not let go of things very easily either so I would think that if it's a big problem she probably would have said so at some point more recently, but who knows.

In any case, I really feel like I've done everything I can on that topic. I don't know how much more I could apologize for that, I've accepted blame for everything for that short period in our lives, but both of us have chalked it up to stupid immaturity and selfishness. At this point, she needs to either be able to forgive and move on, or tell me that this is a big part of the problem and she can't get over it and we should part ways.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Incidentally, my wife had her annual physical today, and when I got home she said the doctor is putting her back on an antidepressant and she is having some blood work to check for chemical imbalance or vitamin deficiencies. I'm not exactly sure why, but the way she told me made it feel like it's related to our issues. Like maybe she's trying to suggest that this problem might improve with some changes like this.

I told her I hope whatever the doc recommends helps her out, and continued what I was doing.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

cdbaker said:


> Incidentally, my wife had her annual physical today, and when I got home she said the doctor is putting her back on an antidepressant



The antidepressant will probably make her libido worse... she will feel better, but don't expect miracles in bed...


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Which anti-depressant?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@cdbaker: Your wife sounds alot like my wife. If you want to stay married to her, fine, that is your choice. But you should stop having sex with her. See if she raises the issue. If she does raise the issue, see if she frames it as "I want sex too" or as "we need to have sex so you don't become frustrated and irritable". Very important to know whether she wants to have sex with you, and why. She will never tell you directly. But you can probably get her to admit it indirectly if you stop having any sex.

To be clear, I don't think you will ever have a satisfying sex life with her. If you need that top stay married, you might as well cut your losses now. But you got back with her so you must have reasons to stay with her despite the unsatisfying sex life.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

In Abstentia & Tron: I agree, I know antidepressant's tend to reduce libido, not strengthen it. Then again, so does depression, which I know she has right now, so I don't know if it will make any difference. Also, I'm not sure which med she is on, or I can't remember. I'll try to check out the bottle later. She has been on a number of different antidepressants over the years. She said this one had very positive effects on her the last time she was on it, which was last summer right before and in the months after our last child was born, which she took to try to address likely post-partum depression, which she always gets after she gives birth.

Holdingontoit: Well I see what you're trying to say, and I can't blame you for not reading all of my lengthy posts here, but she and I have only had one sexual encounter in the last ~14 months. So there really isn't any sexual contact available for me to stop engaging in, see what I mean? So stopping something that already isn't happening probably won't inspire anything differently.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

CD,
The trouble with this marriage is not that your wife doesn’t love you. She doesn’t. The trouble really isn’t the marriage. Instead it is your lack of desire to perceive the world as it is - as opposed to seeing the world as you wish it to be. 

If I had watched a 7 by 24 video of the two of you during the past year, I wouldn’t be angrily asking: Why isn’t C2 doing anything nice for you? That’s obvious. She doesn’t love you.

Instead I’d be shouting at your on screen image asking - WHY THE HECK DO YOU KEEP PURSUING SOMEONE WHO REALLY DOESN'T RESPECT YOUR ATTENTIONS....

She’s depressed because she’s in a loveless, sexless marriage. She can take a pill to mask the symptoms, but there is no pill for the underlying causal factor. 



cdbaker said:


> In Abstentia & Tron: I agree, I know antidepressant's tend to reduce libido, not strengthen it. Then again, so does depression, which I know she has right now, so I don't know if it will make any difference. Also, I'm not sure which med she is on, or I can't remember. I'll try to check out the bottle later. She has been on a number of different antidepressants over the years. She said this one had very positive effects on her the last time she was on it, which was last summer right before and in the months after our last child was born, which she took to try to address likely post-partum depression, which she always gets after she gives birth.
> 
> Holdingontoit: Well I see what you're trying to say, and I can't blame you for not reading all of my lengthy posts here, but she and I have only had one sexual encounter in the last ~14 months. So there really isn't any sexual contact available for me to stop engaging in, see what I mean? So stopping something that already isn't happening probably won't inspire anything differently.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> Holdingontoit: Well I see what you're trying to say, and I can't blame you for not reading all of my lengthy posts here, but she and I have only had one sexual encounter in the last ~14 months. So there really isn't any sexual contact available for me to stop engaging in, see what I mean? So stopping something that already isn't happening probably won't inspire anything differently.


If you ever initiate, stop initiating.

If you ever talk about how you'd like sex with her or how important sex is to you, stop that too.

If you ever engage in behaviors that you hope (and she perceives) would result in sex, stop that too.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Buddy and MEM2020:. Now that my test of seeing if her saying no for two weeks straight is done, I am not really pursuing her at all right now. Meaning I'm mostly just looking out for myself and our kids, and meeting only basic husbandly duties. Not asking her if she needs anything, offering to get her stuff, not going to bed early with her, but still being courteous/cordial. She's no longer my Queen of the Nile. We'll see how MC goes and go from there.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> Now that my test of seeing if her saying no for two weeks straight is done, I am not really pursuing her at all right now.


Would you elaborate on that? I tried to go back and read where you discussed this idea, but perhaps I am missing it. If I am understanding correctly, you initiated sex for two straight weeks and she has refused for two straight weeks? 

If this is in the context of you having had sex only once in the past 14 months, then I have no idea what the point of this test would have been. It is obvious from the start that this test would result in her saying no. If you knew that, then in my opinion this test qualifies as YOU not even trying. That sounds totally backwards, but yes. If you try to initiate sex when you already know that she will say no and you are emotionally prepared for her to say no, then that was not a real attempt to initiate sex. You were only wanting to give yourself validation to go on a passive aggressive tirade as you describe here:



> Meaning I'm mostly just looking out for myself and our kids, and meeting only basic husbandly duties. Not asking her if she needs anything, offering to get her stuff, not going to bed early with her, but still being courteous/cordial. She's no longer my Queen of the Nile. We'll see how MC goes and go from there.


In my opinion if you are going to initiate sex with a sincere attempt, you would need to sit down and talk about it openly. It would have to be done in a way where she does react with guilt and withdraw into a room by herself and hide under the covers. It would have to be done by first asking her how she feels and validating that you understand that and tell her that you understand her. If she says she is depressed, fat, ugly, and worthless... as awkward as it sounds you will have to agree with her but tell her that you will not tolerate her feeling that way and that you want to help her feel better about herself. You are NOT agreeing to what she says is a fact, but more so agreeing with her that you understand and agree that is how she feels about herself. Explain that how she feels about herself goes beyond that and makes you feel the same way about yourself. Ask her if it is OK for you to feel the same way about yourself or if she would want to improve that? 

Obviously she would want to improve that (hopefully). Ask for a hug and if she gives you one tell her how it makes you feel. Explain that you are not going to be pushy about physical intimacy in the marriage, but take a moment to describe why you still desire her as a spouse. Ask her why she desires you as a spouse. 

Once you make a connection emotionally THEN just hold each other and do what comes naturally. 

Otherwise if you walk by casually and irritatedly insinuate it would be nice to have some time alone together as your way to initiate sex. Then ummm no. You did not try. 

I'll admit my advice comes from a place that anything can be reconciled and I give that advice to a fault. I very well could be asking you to engage in acts of emotional self harm in the event that other people are correct in saying that she does not love you or care about you. But in my opinion at the end of each day, you'll feel better knowing you honestly tried your best. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Badsanta: Well, it wasn't exactly a test I suppose. I had a good friend of mine who I've shared some of these struggles with and was given an idea. I mentioned that I extremely rarely actually try to initiate, partially because I've been rejected 99% of the time and it's extremely depressing and deflating. It was suggested that maybe since she doesn't have a sex drive, she might not even realize to what degree she is turning me down or realize that her excuses (when she offers them) are such obvious lies. So it was suggested that maybe I casually try to initiate every day for a while. If she rejects, then accept it totally and move on. We can all have a bad day, a headache day, an exhausting day, a stressful day, etc. every now and then right? But if I do so every day, giving it a good effort every day for a while, perhaps she would see what she is doing, see that maybe she's being unreasonable or that her excuses don't hold much water when they are used every single day.

Maybe it was a dumb idea, but it was different and I thought it was worth a shot. In any case, I tried that for about two weeks before I finally told her that I want her to hold to her promise two years ago of finding an MC she's agreeable to and setting up an appointment. At that point, I stopped trying again. She now realizes that I'm being serious about this, and if anything her attitude towards me has improved since that time. In fact, I'm not even sure if I would go along with a sexual encounter even if she suggested it right now.

As for your advice, I feel like I have tried all that. I have sat down with her before simply to ask about her feelings on the issue, if she has any thoughts for why she doesn't want to engage in any physical contact with me. She's talked about depression, self esteem issues, stress issues, etc., and I've always reacted in a very supportive way. Acknowledging where she is coming from, acknowledging how that must be difficult for her, ask her what I can do to help and totally offering her confirmation of her feelings and concerns. Any of those issues can certainly impact one's happiness and sex drive of course. With that said, eventually I try to turn the discussion towards what we can do to alleviate those issues. Whether it's therapy, medication, reducing stressful responsibilities, getting a gym membership, seeing a doctor, you name it. The point being, she may have perfectly valid excuses or justifications for the low sex drive, but she can't simply elect to not do anything to remedy those issues. That would be unacceptable. A simple example: A bad headache might be a perfectly valid reason to not want to do any number of activities. However, if you are having a headache every night and you elect not to take any steps to possibly alleviate the headache (drink water, take a headache medication, etc.), then the REAL problem isn't the headache, it's the choice to do nothing about it.

So really truly, I've tried many times to sit down and have a heartfelt conversation with her about this stuff, without ANY intention of trying to turn it into a sexual encounter. Purely just sitting to talk and try to help understand her situation and maybe help her understand it as well, and then ultimately with a goal of trying to figure out what good "next steps" would be towards improving the situation, be it depression, self esteem, chemical imbalance, pain, etc. Then I would give her weeks and months to try to follow up on those, and it's never amounted to anything.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I fully believe the post CD wrote below is truthful and accurate. 

And that it reinforces the idea that:
- Her desire to please is low to zero
- Her desire to avoid displeasing is low to zero

Making M2 happy makes me happy. Causing M2 distress makes me uncomfortable. It does not prevent me from taking steps I consider necessary, but I tend to do them only if I have a clear goal that makes sense to me. 

I’d say that seems true in reverse. She definitely has a strong positive reaction to making me happy, especially in bed. And if I calmly but firmly say: Babe, you’re killing me, seriously. She normally makes remediation - an immediate priority. 

I believe what I just described is normal, healthy partnered conduct. I don’t think CD knows what that is, else he would never have ended the separation nor added two kids. 

Eventually I’m going to tag your life story as: love without compatibility 

Because love without compatibility is misery. 




cdbaker said:


> Badsanta: Well, it wasn't exactly a test I suppose. I had a good friend of mine who I've shared some of these struggles with and was given an idea. I mentioned that I extremely rarely actually try to initiate, partially because I've been rejected 99% of the time and it's extremely depressing and deflating. It was suggested that maybe since she doesn't have a sex drive, she might not even realize to what degree she is turning me down or realize that her excuses (when she offers them) are such obvious lies. So it was suggested that maybe I casually try to initiate every day for a while. If she rejects, then accept it totally and move on. We can all have a bad day, a headache day, an exhausting day, a stressful day, etc. every now and then right? But if I do so every day, giving it a good effort every day for a while, perhaps she would see what she is doing, see that maybe she's being unreasonable or that her excuses don't hold much water when they are used every single day.
> 
> Maybe it was a dumb idea, but it was different and I thought it was worth a shot. In any case, I tried that for about two weeks before I finally told her that I want her to hold to her promise two years ago of finding an MC she's agreeable to and setting up an appointment. At that point, I stopped trying again. She now realizes that I'm being serious about this, and if anything her attitude towards me has improved since that time. In fact, I'm not even sure if I would go along with a sexual encounter even if she suggested it right now.
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> Badsanta: Well, it wasn't exactly a test I suppose. I had a good friend of mine who I've shared some of these struggles with and was given an idea. I mentioned that I extremely rarely actually try to initiate, partially because I've been rejected 99% of the time and it's extremely depressing and deflating. It was suggested that maybe since she doesn't have a sex drive, she might not even realize to what degree she is turning me down or realize that her excuses (when she offers them) are such obvious lies. So it was suggested that maybe I casually try to initiate every day for a while. If she rejects, then accept it totally and move on. We can all have a bad day, a headache day, an exhausting day, a stressful day, etc. every now and then right? But if I do so every day, giving it a good effort every day for a while, perhaps she would see what she is doing, see that maybe she's being unreasonable or that her excuses don't hold much water when they are used every single day.
> 
> Maybe it was a dumb idea, but it was different and I thought it was worth a shot. In any case, I tried that for about two weeks before I finally told her that I want her to hold to her promise two years ago of finding an MC she's agreeable to and setting up an appointment. At that point, I stopped trying again. She now realizes that I'm being serious about this, and if anything her attitude towards me has improved since that time. In fact, I'm not even sure if I would go along with a sexual encounter even if she suggested it right now.
> 
> ...



So let me break that down for you. Instead of learning to accept your wife for who she is and making her feel loved... you make her feel broken and as if she needs therapy, a doctor, and some medication?

That was not my advice. 

My advice would be to first accept your wife exactly as she is. As if NOTHING is wrong with her. Ask her what it is she needs from you in order to feel loved. Obviously you want to care about her well being in the event she is suffering from depression. But you CAN'T do that by making her feel like a broken person. 

If I can ask... what are some very positive things you could say about your wife? Specifically what is it that makes her a great person? Do you tell her these things? Does she believe you?

If your wife is suffering from depression, do not focus on trying to make her happy as that is impossible. Instead focus on reasons you have to be happy and share those things with her. That is all you can do. 

And as @MEM2020 says, the two of you may simply not be compatible. So if there are things you need from your wife that she is unwilling to give, no matter how patient you are... perhaps she is not the person you need her to be and nothing is going to ever change that. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

I agree with BadSanta. If this is a depression/medication issue, don’t make her feel worse about herself.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I don’t think it is a coincidence that CDs focused attempt to create a sex life happened just before she got depressed.

My guess - is that she also wishes they were compatible. So here they are, with two young children and he is now focused on:
1. fixing her desire levels or
2. at minimum fixing her lack of a desire to please him so that she will agree to providing him release, despite not feeling it

I’m going to say something now, that is the opposite of what most people think in this scenario. 

The children were as likely leverage for CD as for C2. Put differently, if they had only one 15 year old child at this point, and he pushed the sex thing like this - she wouldn’t be depressed, she’d be gone. For good. 

And - I haven’t checked, but I’m near certain, very near certain, that if someone checks his old threads - he got repeatedly told NOT to have more children with her until this was fully resolved. Because that advice is near universal here. 





badsanta said:


> So let me break that down for you. Instead of learning to accept your wife for who she is and making her feel loved... you make her feel broken and as if she needs therapy, a doctor, and some medication?
> 
> That was not my advice.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@MEM2020: you have an excellent sense for when the purported victim is not, in truth, a victim at all.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

BadSanta: I'm not sure if I understand how I have gone out of my way to make her feel bad or broken about who she is. I'm misunderstanding you there. I'm saying that we have had periods where there was a decent sex life, and at literally every point in time where it has been discussed she has expressed that she wants us to have a healthy sex life. At various times she has promised to take whatever steps necessary to that end. This isn't me forcing her into something that she hasn't expressly said that she wanted. Now if you want to make the argument that she was lying for my sake, or just saying those things because maybe she feels that's what she should say (still lying) and want to point to the supporting evidence of the fact that we haven't had much of a sex life over the vast majority of our marriage, then so be it. IF that is how she really feels, then she has been lying to me and she should tell me the truth rather than leading me on all of this time. If that is what comes out in therapy, then I'll accept it, and move on.

I've said before that she and I really get along quite well in every other aspect of our relationship. She works hard, she's a good mom, she cares for others enormously every day, she volunteers her time, she's extremely smart, and extremely beautiful. I tell her these things regularly. In fact, in an effort to meet what she identified as her primary love language, "Words of Affirmation," I will often leave her notes on little post cards saying one nice thing I have noticed about her that day, or send flowers occasionally with a note like that. Every single day I have tried to make a point of saying one nice new thing about her that I've noticed recently. I have loved her every day since we first met 18 years ago.

I admit, as a man I tend to want to fix problems, and I do need to be reminded that depression in someone else isn't something that I or anyone else can fix. With that said, I also won't accept that depression is something that anyone should just live with without making an effort to improve the situation. I've seen she is depressed, I do believe that it contributes to our marital intimacy, so I have encouraged her to do something about it, whatever it is that she thinks might help. I don't think there is anything wrong with encouraging someone to seek proper channels for help. I have sat with her and simply been there for her countless times, offering a listening ear without any feedback until she asks. When she has indicated frustration about what to do about it, I've suggested seeing a professional, that's about it.

If we're not compatible, then so be it. I don't want to force anything here. I'm saying there is a problem in the relationship that she has committed to resolve on many occasions, and she has broken promises on many occasions as well. I'd like to see her decide if she really wants to put in an effort to making changes, or see if I need to make changes, or admit that it's all been a lie and she has never had any intention of having a sexual component to our marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I’m guessing you will shortly be gone from this site. I recognize a certain tone that emerges just before people depart from TAM in anger or despair.

If you two got along really well as husband and wife there wouldn’t be a huge, insurmountable wall of deception between you:
- she wouldn’t have stonewalled you on why she’s avoided sex for 18 years 
- she would want to please you - clearly she doesn’t 

And it’s the opposite of intimacy to tell someone daily how great they are - when you feel abandoned and hate their treatment of you.

And the reason I predict your imminent departure is that you are now beginning to directly contradict yourself. You cannot simultaneously say that you’ve had maybe 50 encounters in 18 years and also claim that you’ve had a decent sex life for periods of time. 

Let yourself off the hook. You’ve pursued unrequited love for 18 years. Absolute disaster. For her too. Accept it. You still have a lot of life left in you. Tear open the door into summer and step out of the shadows into the light.

My final comment, she isn’t very smart. Truly isn’t. This scenario, with a miserable partner and two young kids, wasn’t just likely it was certain. Nothing remotely smart about that. 




cdbaker said:


> BadSanta: I'm not sure if I understand how I have gone out of my way to make her feel bad or broken about who she is. I'm misunderstanding you there. I'm saying that we have had periods where there was a decent sex life, and at literally every point in time where it has been discussed she has expressed that she wants us to have a healthy sex life. At various times she has promised to take whatever steps necessary to that end. This isn't me forcing her into something that she hasn't expressly said that she wanted. Now if you want to make the argument that she was lying for my sake, or just saying those things because maybe she feels that's what she should say (still lying) and want to point to the supporting evidence of the fact that we haven't had much of a sex life over the vast majority of our marriage, then so be it. IF that is how she really feels, then she has been lying to me and she should tell me the truth rather than leading me on all of this time. If that is what comes out in therapy, then I'll accept it, and move on.
> 
> I've said before that she and I really get along quite well in every other aspect of our relationship. She works hard, she's a good mom, she cares for others enormously every day, she volunteers her time, she's extremely smart, and extremely beautiful. I tell her these things regularly. In fact, in an effort to meet what she identified as her primary love language, "Words of Affirmation," I will often leave her notes on little post cards saying one nice thing I have noticed about her that day, or send flowers occasionally with a note like that. Every single day I have tried to make a point of saying one nice new thing about her that I've noticed recently. I have loved her every day since we first met 18 years ago.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Santa,
One thing I have always loved about you and will always love about you - is something that I am CERTAIN your wife loves about you. 

You are fearsomely honest. About yourself, your situation, your wife. Now that by itself is a big thing. Nay - a huge thing. 

And you have ALSO retained an excellent sense of humor about your self, your marriage, life in general. 

Your marriage is based on transparency. CDs marriage is based on delay, denial, avoidance and deception. Here’s the trouble with that. If I keep saying X and doing the opposite of X, if I keep promising improvements that never come. I lose the respect I feel for my partner because they believe me and allow me to keep doormatting them. 

There’s a point of no return for most people - where respect is concerned. And 18 years of that dynamic is typically far far past that point. 





badsanta said:


> Would you elaborate on that? I tried to go back and read where you discussed this idea, but perhaps I am missing it. If I am understanding correctly, you initiated sex for two straight weeks and she has refused for two straight weeks?
> 
> If this is in the context of you having had sex only once in the past 14 months, then I have no idea what the point of this test would have been. It is obvious from the start that this test would result in her saying no. If you knew that, then in my opinion this test qualifies as YOU not even trying. That sounds totally backwards, but yes. If you try to initiate sex when you already know that she will say no and you are emotionally prepared for her to say no, then that was not a real attempt to initiate sex. You were only wanting to give yourself validation to go on a passive aggressive tirade as you describe here:
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> I admit, as a man I tend to want to fix problems, and I do need to be reminded that depression in someone else isn't something that I or anyone else can fix. With that said, I also won't accept that depression is something that anyone should just live with without making an effort to improve the situation.


Those suffering from depression don't want to be fixed or helped. They simply want to be understood. It is an extraordinarily difficult thing to do. If that hasn't happened by now, then I doubt it will.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Those suffering from depression don't want to be fixed or helped. They simply want to be understood.


They want to be left alone, to wallow in their own despair. It's their natural state and the only one they understand.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

cdbaker said:


> For what it's worth, her old therapist has shared with me that she felt all of the old "affairs" were not the result of her wanting out of the marriage, but rather depression and low self esteem.


There's nothing worse than a freakin' therapist HANDING a serial cheater a bogus excuse for all their **** behavior.

See how that works? Your wife, the poor *lying serial cheater* was_ depressed _and had low _self esteem_. I guess I can go out and do whatever the hell I want and like most cheaters, just go to some hack therapist who'll give me a get out of jail free card with one of those lame excuses they're always handing out.

And cdbaker, the saddest part is that you believe the bogus excuses given to her for her **** behavior and its kept YOU with the lying serial cheater - who wants nothing to do with YOU sexually - for _*how*_ many years now?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

cdbaker said:


> ..we were also into posting pics on a wife sharing board online, anonymously, but someone happened to recognize her somehow despite there being no face pictures. That person and his wife were basically swingers, and happened to be parents of a daughter who was in our daughter's class of all coincidences. We decided to get to know them a bit, to see where that went. Honestly I found them very weird, creepy, etc. and wasn't interested in hanging out with them at all, let alone anything more than that, but he started pursuing her behind my back. Given the other issues occurring in our marriage (like I mentioned earlier, immaturity, selfishness, unfair expectations, depression (hers), feeling inadequate (her), etc.), she was very susceptible to his advances and they ended up having an affair, without his wife's knowledge as well, which lasted several months.


Now that I know that you're married to a serial cheater, I have to ask. Do you actually *BELIEVE* that boatload of manure? ^^^^^

You _*believe*_ that ridiculous story that these two swingers just appeared out of nowhere because they just _happened_ to 'recognize' your wife by her nude pictures on an *anonymous* message board? Come on! How in the world would two strangers who didn't know you both 'recognize' your wife if all they could see was her naked body since her face wasn't showing???? And here's the REAL miracle of the ages - these swingers just *happen* to have a kid in your kid's class at school! Why, it's a Christmas miracle!

I mean, what were the odds? 

Either you're pulling our leg about how you met these people, or your *wife *was pulling yours and I'm betting it's the latter. Either she met these people at the school or she met them online, but she knew who they were before these 'strangers' reached out to you. She likely wanted to get with the guy so they cooked up that nonsense about how they recognized your wife purely by her nude body alone even though you guys were strangers, and oh boy, what a coincidence! Our kids go to school together!

If you don't think your wife was in on that *right from the get go*, then I have some oceanfront property in Kansas I'd like to sell you.

You were hoodwinked by your lying wife so she could get with this guy. And guess what? She got with him and played it off like it was his fault. You got yourself a real peach there, OP.

Why on earth you stick around for this disrespect year after year is beyond me.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

> If you don't think your wife was in on that right from the get go, then I have some oceanfront property in Kansas I'd like to sell you.
> 
> You were hoodwinked by your lying wife so she could get with this guy. And guess what? She got with him and played it off like it was his fault. You got yourself a real peach there, OP.


I missed that part, but SSGI is 100% correct. That story is blatantly false. She was already banging the OM before you decided to swing.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> I missed that part, but SSGI is 100% correct. That story is blatantly false. She was already banging the OM before you decided to swing.


 @She'sStillGotIt would you go so far as to recommend the OP do a paternity test?


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## Coastalguy (May 15, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Now that I know that you're married to a serial cheater, I have to ask. Do you actually *BELIEVE* that boatload of manure? ^^^^^
> 
> You _*believe*_ that ridiculous story that these two swingers just appeared out of nowhere because they just _happened_ to 'recognize' your wife by her nude pictures on an *anonymous* message board? Come on! How in the world would two strangers who didn't know you both 'recognize' your wife if all they could see was her naked body since her face wasn't showing???? And here's the REAL miracle of the ages - these swingers just *happen* to have a kid in your kid's class at school! Why, it's a Christmas miracle!
> 
> I mean, what were the odds?


CD Just finished reading your thread from start to finish, this interpretation by SSGI stands out as significant.


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