# My husband finds it difficult to have sex with me because of my harsh words



## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

We are a young couple in our late 20's. We got married about 3years ago. We dated for several years without having sex due to religious reasons. I was very naive and just thought everything will happen naturally. After our wedding, we tried having sex. It was a difficult experience. I was a virgin, and it took practically about a week before he could go in. I was distraught and he was too, I did say some harsh words during that time that has been stuck in his head for 3yrs. He will get turned on by me but as soon as it is time for sex, he gets nervous and losses it. When things do go one ok, he barely lasts 5mins which I was grateful for. We have been having these issues on and off... We will have a long spell with no sex, then once or twice a month and another long break where he points to our first week replaying in his head. 

Fast forward to this year, we have been having serious communication issues, a lot of hurtful words have been exchanged both ways. We had about 3 months of no sex(maybe 1 time in between) I tried every trick in the book, dressed sexy, only wore lingerie in the house, willing to give him anything he wanted, am petite and take care of my self. Anyway, back to the story, after 3 months he said his mind has been on a lot of things and couldn't bring himself to have sex. We had several talks and decided to start communicating better and everything has been fine, getting along for about 1.5months. In this time we have only had sex once. Two days ago I sat him down and begged him to tell me what was wrong. He went back to his experience first week married to me and he can't get it out of his head and it is 50% my fault. I got really upset because I have done everything possible to get him to forgive me and move on. 

I asked him maybe he needs to see a therapist cause there is nothing I can do, he got upset and refused. 

I am sorry for the long rant but divorce is not an option. I don't know what else I can do. I can't even remember what I said 3yrs ago out of anger, it may have been along the lines of he shld know what to do as a man. It had to do with him being a man or being man enough. He doesn't want a divorce either. We love each other very much but haven't had a healthy relationship. We have tried couple counselling on our communication issues but it hasn't worked. We are getting close to resenting each other. Pretty much a love/hate relationship. Please help!


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## Godot (Feb 21, 2014)

What in the heck did you say?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Does he have religious mania?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

Godot said:


> What in the heck did you say?


I really cannot remember, I was angry and frustrated that it took a week to have sex.

I may have said something along the lines of him being a man he shld be able to figure sex out etc... I may have said more than that, it was over 3yrs ago


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Does he have religious mania?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What does religious mania mean?


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

You both should try MC. Put everything out on the table. Say what needs to be said and hopefully move on. You both should be humping like rabbits at this stage of the marriage. Good luck.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Beyond;9592034 I have everything a man could dream of said:


> Yeah. Mustache, hairy chest, deep voice.
> 
> Just kidding, just kidding. I think it's time that he seeks some help and you should go with him too just so the both of you are on the same page.
> 
> ...


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

6301 said:


> Yeah. Mustache, hairy chest, deep voice.
> 
> Just kidding, just kidding. I think it's time that he seeks some help and you should go with him too just so the both of you are on the same page.
> 
> ...


Lmao @ mustache, hairy chest...

Thanks 6301. I did mentioned it in the post/replies I'll bring up therapy/counsellor tonight and also apologize again maybe we can put this behind us


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

It's not just on him to "get over it". You both need to get into counseling, or I suspect the hurtful things will keep flying out of your mouth at inopportune times. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

richie33 said:


> You both should try MC. Put everything out on the table. Say what needs to be said and hopefully move on. You both should be humping like rabbits at this stage of the marriage. Good luck.


Richie33, @humping like rabbits, that's exactly what I thought. I guess dreams and reality are two different things. 

We did attend marriage counselling last year, nothing seemed to change.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Try a different therapist. You apologized over and over again....what more could you do? Holding it over your head for the whole marriage seems immature. What is he getting out of it? Could be a control tactic.


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

richie33 said:


> Try a different therapist. You apologized over and over again....what more could you do? Holding it over your head for the whole marriage seems immature. What is he getting out of it? Could be a control tactic.


I don't think it is a control tactic, even when he gets turned on(which happens often) he is ready to have sex, the whole thing starts replaying in his head and he goes soft. 

This happening several times, I think May have made him give up or embarrassed about it. I try not to say anything about that since I know he is very sensitive about it and I don't want it to add to the list of things that replays in his head. I have had many questions in my head and asked him if it is me or if there is anything else but he always point to our first week. He is not into porn or masturbate.


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

PBear said:


> It's not just on him to "get over it". You both need to get into counseling, or I suspect the hurtful things will keep flying out of your mouth at inopportune times.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I have been working on my anger and words. I am gradually getting better with holding my tongue but it's creating a new set of problems which is resentment. Mostly me holding things in, we have times where we both argue for weeks, but I tend to stay away from the kind of words I used in our first yr of marriage


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

I find it really odd that it has been 3 years, its still effecting him and your sex life yet you haven't bothered to find out exactly what you said. You may not remember but he certainly does. That would be the first step in changing your attitude, asking for forgiveness and actively working to undo the hurt and damage your words caused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

a olot of men put on a good show, but have pretty thin egos related to being able to perform. So...the first thing you have to do is be much less critical of his efforts! No bad words, especially about his abilities in sex, his **** size, stiffness, etc. Think of your words like a hot poker searing his brain!

Did you ever get over that first week where he had trouble inserting it. Is it still hard for him to get it into you? Some women have very thight Vags, and need to expand them They actually make a graduated diameter size set of inserts you can use to gradually, over a month or two, expand the size.

I would say you need to do some things to build up his confidence as a master lover. Next time you have sex, make SURE you are vocal about it during the act. Make a lot of moaning, panting, when you orgasm....a few "oh my gawd" screams are not out of place.

I do not think things are too late for you. Just tell him you were inexperienced and wrong to make those comments, andyou want to PROVE to him that he is your sex god.


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

inarut said:


> I find it really odd that it has been 3 years, its still effecting him and your sex life yet you haven't bothered to find out exactly what you said. You may not remember but he certainly does. That would be the first step in changing your attitude, asking for forgiveness and actively working to undo the hurt and damage your words caused.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did ask, but he doesn't want to repeat them and will gloss over it. I know he does remember word for word cause I can see the pain on his face.

He did say I have gotten a lot better and don't say all the things I used to say. I am glad he said that because I have been trying my best these few months to keep it in


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

murphy5 said:


> a olot of men put on a good show, but have pretty thin egos related to being able to perform. So...the first thing you have to do is be much less critical of his efforts! No bad words, especially about his abilities in sex, his **** size, stiffness, etc. Think of your words like a hot poker searing his brain!
> 
> Did you ever get over that first week where he had trouble inserting it. Is it still hard for him to get it into you? Some women have very thight Vags, and need to expand them They actually make a graduated diameter size set of inserts you can use to gradually, over a month or two, expand the size.
> 
> ...


I'll keep this in mind when we get back on track

All, I just had a talk with him again. I did talk to him about therapy/counseling and also told him I was sorry and we need to put this behind us. He said has forgiven me but he always remembers. We will have a talk tomorrow on what I can do to improve our sexlife. 

He also agreed to counseling for our communication issues but refuses to have any counseling for our sex issues, that we can fix that on our own. I am eager to hear what he has to say tomorrow.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Does he have religious mania?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does he often refer to religion and religious values in decision making?

Does he often talk about God's will?

Some men get turned on when their wives talk dirty. Have you tried telling him, "just **** me!"


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Does he often refer to religion and religious values in decision making?
> 
> Does he often talk about God's will?
> 
> Some men get turned on when their wives talk dirty. Have you tried telling him, "just **** me!"


No he doesn't @religious words
I have tried talking dirty, but he finds it funny and out of my character. Weirds him out a little
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Oldfaithful (Nov 27, 2013)

Have you tried taking intercourse off the table? That is something sex therapists will suggest too. 
Google "sensate focus". It's step by step exercises to build trust without orgasm. 
Or just do other things with each other that don't involve penetration for a while to see if that will build trust.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

1. Read up on tantric sex...... intimate and romantic, without the pressure. 

2. More oral sex? That might help to build confidence, as well as improve his stamina.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

SunnyT said:


> 1. Read up on tantric sex...... intimate and romantic, without the pressure.
> 
> 2. More oral sex? That might help to build confidence, as well as improve his stamina.


His stamina is poor because he's not having a lot of sex while he is young. 

I'm a guy, and I think he's being overly sensitive if he's letting words from 3 years ago prevent him from performing. Unless the OP said words along the lines: 

"I wish I would have married __________. He would know how to please a woman unlike you."

If her words were along those lines and were delivered frequently at the start of the marriage, then I could understand his anxieties. However, if she said something more out of frustration, did not involve a 3rd person in anyway, and she never mentioned things like that after their first week together, then I think he's being too sensitive.

OP, did you ever compare your H to another man that you used to date? Or did you call his equipment small? Those are the only 2 things I can think of off the top of my head that would cause him such pain after 3 years.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

Beyond said:


> We dated for several years without having sex due to religious reasons.


Wonder how many of these examples it will take until people stop trying this approach. We have an entire forum dedicated to focusing on how important a healthy sex life is to a marriage, how much compatibility it requires, and yet religious zealots categorize it under, "we'll first look into it AFTER we're married.....pfffft......I'm sure it will be fine." It's like buying a house without a home inspection, I mean....the location is awesome, I'm sure all the electrical and plumbing will be just fine, we'll look into that after we drop a few hundred grand on it.....

I know that post isn't helpful, I kinda don't want to help, since the reason you're in this predicament is so ludicrous. "Saving yourself" being a wholesome idea, kinda went out with the idea that "rock and roll music is the work of the devil."


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Changed, you know the vast majority of people in this forum had premarital sex, right?


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

So what was the problem the first week? Why couldn't you two have sex? Why did you lash out at him? Was it his fault? I've heard of virgins having trouble getting it in before, but usually it's just too tight? Not really his fault if that's the case. 


I'm curious about the situation and exactly what was said.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

Yep, but I also know there is a pervasive mentality among some that premarital sex is wrong, that 'saving yourself' is some higher moral calling, or something. I think that approach should be eradicated, it's ludicrous, just as my analogies are ludicrous.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Beyond said:


> I have been working on my anger and words. I am gradually getting better with holding my tongue but it's creating a new set of problems which is resentment. Mostly me holding things in, we have times where we both argue for weeks, but I tend to stay away from the kind of words I used in our first yr of marriage


Take an honest look at how you treat him. Do you belittle him? Nag him? Talk bad about him behind his back? From what you've said, I have a feeling it's more than just a few words said one time. I have a feeling there is a pattern of disrespect that is taking a big toll on his ego.

Likely, he was unsure on that first night (was he also a virgin)? and your words crushed him. You need to look within yourself and figure out why you would even have that attitude. Rather than support him through this, you attacked him. And, the problem was actually with you! You put the responsibility and blame on him for not getting your body ready for sex. That is a bigger problem than just a few words said out of character. I'm guessing it's a fundamental part of your character to be like that.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

When you say you were grateful that he only lasted 5 minutes, are you talking about back in the beginning, or currently? Men feed off a woman's reactions, and if you're acting like you want it over with, or if it hurts or anything like that, then he'll avoid it. Even if you say you want it, if you give off a bad vibe then he simply won't believe you.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

wilson said:


> Take an honest look at how you treat him. Do you belittle him? Nag him? Talk bad about him behind his back? From what you've said, I have a feeling it's more than just a few words said one time. I have a feeling there is a pattern of disrespect that is taking a big toll on his ego.
> 
> Likely, he was unsure on that first night (was he also a virgin)? and your words crushed him. You need to look within yourself and figure out why you would even have that attitude. Rather than support him through this, you attacked him. And, the problem was actually with you! You put the responsibility and blame on him for not getting your body ready for sex. That is a bigger problem than just a few words said out of character. I'm guessing it's a fundamental part of your character to be like that.


Very much agree with this. It's just the vibe you're putting out there.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Beyond said:


> I'll keep this in mind when we get back on track
> 
> All, I just had a talk with him again. I did talk to him about therapy/counseling and also told him I was sorry and we need to put this behind us. He said has forgiven me but he always remembers. We will have a talk tomorrow on what I can do to improve our sexlife.
> 
> He also agreed to counseling for our communication issues *but refuses to have any counseling for our sex issues, that we can fix that on our own. *I am eager to hear what he has to say tomorrow.


Why does he think you can fix it on your own when it's been 3 years and you haven't fixed anything. What does he think will change without help? 

He's embarrassed to talk about sex problems with the counselor. He might even feel humiliated in having to repeat the words you used, and in explaining how he isn't able to have stable, consistent erections. That's why he won't talk to a counselor about your sex life. But until he can talk about it, it won't be resolved: see previous 3 years of bad sex.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Personal said:


> On the other hand I encourage you not to tell your husband you were wrong. It's fine to tell him you are sorry he feels hurt as long as it is clear to him. You did not intend to cause hurt, by loving and respecting him enough to be direct and honest with him.


Really? Telling him he is not a man is "loving and respecting him enough to be direct and honest"? It is sure direct and honest, but not much else.

They both decided for religious reasons not to have sex. When things went bad, she let loose on him. That was wrong and deserves an apology. That he may be wrong does not excuse her.

I suspect a big part of the reason it is not working is because the OP continues to say disrespectful things in anger. When that occurs, apologies for previous outbursts don't work.

I would recommend couples counseling to work on communication and start some basic intimacy. Hand holding, then kissing, then making out, etc.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

changedbeliefs said:


> Yep, but I also know there is a pervasive mentality among some that premarital sex is wrong, that 'saving yourself' is some higher moral calling, or something. I think that approach *should be eradicated*, it's ludicrous, just as my analogies are ludicrous.


Luckily, there are those that defend against eradication. You are making an assumption that pre-marital sex always prepares the couple for a lifetime of blissful sex. I can see how you can logically make that argument. It has some merit. But it doesn't always hold true.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

OP,
I'm still not clear on what the original problem was. You said that you both tried for a week but he couldn't "get it in". Are you saying that he could not get hard and was suffering from ED or you were too tight and it just wouldn't "fit".


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

norajane said:


> Why does he think you can fix it on your own when it's been 3 years and you haven't fixed anything. What does he think will change without help?
> 
> He's embarrassed to talk about sex problems with the counselor. He might even feel humiliated in having to repeat the words you used, and in explaining how he isn't able to have stable, consistent erections. That's why he won't talk to a counselor about your sex life. But until he can talk about it, it won't be resolved: see previous 3 years of bad sex.


I agree with this. My suggestion would be to start with counseling to deal with communication. The OP admits she still has issues with anger and how she expresses it. He won't open up about something as personal as his sexual inadequacies if he does not feel safe enough to talk about other things. If they are not communicating now, jumping to issues with sex ain't going to happen with him.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

When I was a young man I had a lot of anxiety around sex. My then girlfriend, now wife, kind of took the lead in the first few weeks of our relationship and once I got my confidence, I was good to go.

This might be as simple as get him drunk, take hold of his junk, and make it happen. It's not clear how passive you are, but taking a bit of the lead in the short term will boost his confidence. 

Talking about it, will NOT boost his confidence. A man talking about his feelings of inadequacy is about the most unpleasant experience a man can have.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I'd suggest you not start with counseling, but with education.

A pox on stupid stupid stupid religious beliefs that not only keep young people wholly ignorant about the sex they will have once they've been "properly wed" but stunted their ability to solve the inevitable problems that arise when ignorance is combined with myth!


Start here. Buy all 3 of these books. Both of you, read all 3. Read them together or separately, doesn't matter as long as both read all 3. 



Sex Matters for Women, Second Edition: A Complete Guide to Taking Care of Your Sexual Self - Kindle edition by Sallie Foley, Sally A. Kope, Dennis P. Sugrue. Health, Fitness & Dieting Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

Male Sexuality: Why Women Don't Understand It-And Men Don't Either - Kindle edition by Michael Bader. Health, Fitness & Dieting Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.


Amazon.com: She Comes First: The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman eBook: Ian Kerner: Books


After you both have dispelled the myths about sex and love, learned facts and have come to better understand yourselves and each other, THEN enter counseling.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> After you both have dispelled the myths about sex and love, learned facts and have come to better understand yourselves and each other, THEN enter counseling.


I like this suggestion, but remain unconvinced that in the current state of the relationship, he will read them. From the OPs original post:



> Fast forward to this year, we have been having serious communication issues, a lot of hurtful words have been exchanged both ways.


Translation - she still is telling him hurtful and disrespectful things, just like she did on their honeymoon. So to him, nothing has changed since that day. He believes that if something goes wrong with sex, he will be called out again for not being a man. So I don't see him addressing that issue until the other issues are addressed.

I do have one question for the OP - were either or both of you virgins when you met? If not, what kind of experience did you two have prior to dating each other?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I like this suggestion, but remain unconvinced that in the current state of the relationship, he will read them. From the OPs original post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Completely agree TAG. It goes without saying that the hurtful words must stop immediately.

This thread brings up yet another disservice we, as a society, do to our young males. They have feelings just as women do. They get hurt just as women do. But we have cut off their ability to cope with that hurt by ascribing them to stoicism as their only outlet.


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

Thank you everyone for the replies, I will respond this evening as soon as i get home. A lot of what you all mentioned above are true.


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## soulseer (Jul 26, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> They both decided for religious reasons not to have sex. When things went bad, she let loose on him. That was wrong and deserves an apology. That he may be wrong does not excuse her.
> 
> I suspect a big part of the reason it is not working is because the OP continues to say disrespectful things in anger. When that occurs, apologies for previous outbursts don't work.


Young virgin men are sensitive creatures sexually. Heck even big tough men need their lady to boost confidence at times simply by believing in them. 

OP you dented his confidence so he hasnt found his mojo. 

OP its in your power to give him his mojo. Just stop pressuring him and start enjoying each others bodies.

I find I probably only last 5-10 minutes of true thrusting but with foreplay, oral/hand stimulation, breaks and changes of position or tempo our lovemaking usually lasts 30-90minutes. 

Pretty soon as you learn each others bodies 5 minutes will be 30 minutes and etc etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OP, you've mentioned a couple of times you've spent the last few months trying to suppress your harsh words. I'm concerned that you're taking the wrong approach here. While it's commendable that you're trying to keep from speaking disrespectfully, you are running a risk by suppressing your own emotions. Rather than bottling up the anger and building resentment, you need to take steps to learn to express your anger respectfully. It can be done.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OP

you said some things three years ago that still haunt him to this day. you ask him "what did I say?" and he says he'd rather not repeat it yet those words are at the crux of his sexual problems. 

that is not fair to you. he is not "fighting fair" as they say. sounds like he's playing some sort of game. tell him you want him to write down what he remembers you saying as close to verbatim as he can. don't take no for an answer....he's being ridiculous


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

nuclearnightmare said:


> OP
> 
> you said some things three years ago that still haunt him to this day. you ask him "what did I say?" and he says he'd rather not repeat it yet those words are at the crux of his sexual problems.
> 
> that is not fair to you. he is not "fighting fair" as they say. sounds like he's playing some sort of game. tell him you want him to write down what he remembers you saying as close to verbatim as he can. don't take no for an answer....he's being ridiculous


Exactly. She can't apologize if she doesn't know exactly what she's apologizing for. It doesn't ring true to me that words spoken in anger three years ago are at the crux of his problems now. 

If he's hard and she's wet, sex will happen. If his problems are ED and a continued inability to get it up, I have to wonder if perhaps he's gay and conflicted about it (or perhaps, just not attracted to his wife at all for some other reason). (there's no background here on previous experience, there is a religious background which would tend to encourage the hiding/repression of problems). Perhaps he's playing unfair because he wants nothing more than for their problems to be *her* fault, because as long as it's her fault, he doesn't have to confront the fact that he does not truly desire his wife the way he thinks he "ought to".


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You need couple's counselling. Sooner rather than later.


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

Maybe he is gay, he's not acting like man, he is being unfair and ridiculous? Seriously! If the op was a woman virgin or not saying that her husband showed anger, frustration and criticism in the bedroom, If he insulted her body and/ or technique or lack there of. Telling her she was a sorry excuse for a woman and humiliated her for her lack of experience I think she would get a unanimous " lose that insensitive a hole " the op is still trying to keep her anger under control. I don't think this is an isolated incident and i I bet it's written 
all over her no matter what she is actually still be saying or not. She should express her self but there is a right and very wrong way to do that. I'm glad she sees that and is willing to work to fix it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> When you say you were grateful that he only lasted 5 minutes, are you talking about back in the beginning, or currently? Men feed off a woman's reactions, and if you're acting like you want it over with, or if it hurts or anything like that, then he'll avoid it. Even if you say you want it, if you give off a bad vibe then he simply won't believe you.


No, i just mean that i was happy that finally we had sex, even till now





Zatol Ugot? said:


> OP,
> I'm still not clear on what the original problem was. You said that you both tried for a week but he couldn't "get it in". Are you saying that he could not get hard and was suffering from ED or you were too tight and it just wouldn't "fit".


I was too tight and he couldnt get it in. I was in a lot of pain too, and he was afraid of hurting me



seeking sanity said:


> This might be as simple as get him drunk, take hold of his junk, and make it happen. It's not clear how passive you are, but taking a bit of the lead in the short term will boost his confidence.


A few time we ended up having sex was after drinking some alcohol. He did try getting drunk to have better stamina.


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

changedbeliefs said:


> Wonder how many of these examples it will take until people stop trying this approach. We have an entire forum dedicated to focusing on how important a healthy sex life is to a marriage, how much compatibility it requires, and yet religious zealots categorize it under, "we'll first look into it AFTER we're married.....pfffft......I'm sure it will be fine." It's like buying a house without a home inspection, I mean....the location is awesome, I'm sure all the electrical and plumbing will be just fine, we'll look into that after we drop a few hundred grand on it.....
> 
> I know that post isn't helpful, I kinda don't want to help, since the reason you're in this predicament is so ludicrous. "Saving yourself" being a wholesome idea, kinda went out with the idea that "rock and roll music is the work of the devil."


I understand how this can be frustrating for someone looking in. I look back now and my decision did not make any sense. Unfortunately it is hard to convince anyone otherwise until their case turns out like mine. 



wilson said:


> Take an honest look at how you treat him. Do you belittle him? Nag him? Talk bad about him behind his back? From what you've said, I have a feeling it's more than just a few words said one time. I have a feeling there is a pattern of disrespect that is taking a big toll on his ego.
> 
> Likely, he was unsure on that first night (was he also a virgin)? and your words crushed him. You need to look within yourself and figure out why you would even have that attitude. Rather than support him through this, you attacked him. And, the problem was actually with you! You put the responsibility and blame on him for not getting your body ready for sex. That is a bigger problem than just a few words said out of character. I'm guessing it's a fundamental part of your character to be like that.


Yes, he was also a virgin... (I did not want to put this out there so people dont give out mean comments) 

It is/was a fundamental part of my character to talk like that. I know i have this problem and i am working on it and now know it is wrong to talk to someone like that. I didnt know before, i just thought its ok to say or express yourself when you are angry. I am gradually changing a lot of things about myself, and i have a lot of way to go. I feel deeply sorry for all the words i have used and am working on a better way to deal with anger. 




I Don't Know said:


> So what was the problem the first week? Why couldn't you two have sex? Why did you lash out at him? Was it his fault? I've heard of virgins having trouble getting it in before, but usually it's just too tight? Not really his fault if that's the case.
> 
> 
> I'm curious about the situation and exactly what was said.



Yes, he couldnt get it in for the first week cause i was too tight. He was afraid of hurting me as well because i was in a lot of pain. i just thought things would have happened naturally, i didnt do any homework on sex or any research.


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Really? Telling him he is not a man is "loving and respecting him enough to be direct and honest"? It is sure direct and honest, but not much else.
> 
> They both decided for religious reasons not to have sex. When things went bad, she let loose on him. That was wrong and deserves an apology. That he may be wrong does not excuse her.
> 
> ...





MarriedManInHis40s said:


> Exactly. She can't apologize if she doesn't know exactly what she's apologizing for. It doesn't ring true to me that words spoken in anger three years ago are at the crux of his problems now.
> 
> If he's hard and she's wet, sex will happen. If his problems are ED and a continued inability to get it up, I have to wonder if perhaps he's gay and conflicted about it (or perhaps, just not attracted to his wife at all for some other reason). (there's no background here on previous experience, there is a religious background which would tend to encourage the hiding/repression of problems). Perhaps he's playing unfair because he wants nothing more than for their problems to be *her* fault, because as long as it's her fault, he doesn't have to confront the fact that he does not truly desire his wife the way he thinks he "ought to".


He is not gay. There has be times where he was hard and i am wet but he couldnt get it in, but instead of struggling, he gives up and goes soft. 

Someone did mention this earlier, about being tight & a diameter. Whenever we have sex, he does have to use a bit of force before he can get in even if am wet. I just thought that was normal


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I like this suggestion, but remain unconvinced that in the current state of the relationship, he will read them. From the OPs original post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We both had limited experience prior to each other. I had never been with anyone else. He had fooled around, just kissing & maybe touching here and there but was also a virgin when we got married.

He did mentioned in the past of being afraid of getting called out again when sex doesnt go right


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Beyond said:


> It is/was a fundamental part of my character to talk like that. I know i have this problem and i am working on it and now know it is wrong to talk to someone like that. I didnt know before, i just thought its ok to say or express yourself when you are angry. I am gradually changing a lot of things about myself, and i have a lot of way to go. I feel deeply sorry for all the words i have used and am working on a better way to deal with anger.


How do you express yourself with other people? Family? People at work? People who irritate you, at the check out line, the DMV, waiters? 

I'm assuming you don't scream at your boss or at customers or strangers, because it's simply not acceptable and you know it. If you are able to control your frustration and anger and can express your thoughts in a civil way with others, then you absolutely can and should do with your _husband_. He deserves at least as much consideration as your boss does, and quite a bit _more_.

It's ok to feel angry, but do make it a priority to learn how to express that anger in a civil way. It's not ok to call your husband names (loser, lazy, stupid, incompetent..) or try to devalue him (you're worthless, you can never do anything right, what's wrong with you?...) or use the nuclear option (I should never have married you! I hate you! Marrying you was a mistake!). 

People disagree and people fight, but the golden rules still applies. You can learn self-control, and it doesn't have to lead to resentment because you can learn to discuss yoru issues rather than insult and scream.



> Yes, he couldnt get it in for the first week cause i was too tight. He was afraid of hurting me as well because i was in a lot of pain. i just thought things would have happened naturally, i didnt do any homework on sex or any research.


So, two inexperienced virgins who didn't do any reading and research and expected sex to magically work out. I'm not surprised things didn't go well, because it really does take time to learn about your bodies and about what good sex is for you as a couple when you're starting from scratch. 

But it's not too late to learn! Do some reading! There are so many resources out there to help with information on good sex and what it feels like. Start fresh. Start "dating" again and work your way, slowly, back up to having sex. Give it another try after you've had a chance to remember why you fell in love in the first place.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Beyond said:


> Yes, he couldnt get it in for the first week cause i was too tight. He was afraid of hurting me as well because i was in a lot of pain. i just thought things would have happened naturally, i didnt do any homework on sex or any research.


Unless he's absolutely huge, the problem is on your end not his. Is he thicker than a D-cell mag light? If not, the problem is you're tensing up so much that no man is going to get in.

So not only did you cause this, you're blaming him for it.


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

norajane said:


> So, two inexperienced virgins who didn't do any reading and research and expected sex to magically work out.


...and when it doesn't, she says something incredibly offensive to him for not being immediately good at something he's never done before.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Beyond said:


> Yes, he couldnt get it in for the first week cause i was too tight. He was afraid of hurting me as well because i was in a lot of pain. i just thought things would have happened naturally, i didnt do any homework on sex or any research.


OK, that clarifies things a lot.



> I don't know what else I can do. I can't even remember what I said 3yrs ago out of anger, it may have been along the lines of he shld know what to do as a man. It had to do with him being a man or being man enough.


Under the circumstances, that is pretty bad, yes. What a thing to hear on your honeymoon, especially when it the fault was actually yours and not his. 

It sounds like you might have vaginismus?
What Is Vaginismus?
(or perhaps your husband is huge... men do vary quite a bit in size you know!). 

Anyway, off to a doctor/sex therapist to get this sorted out! (and again, the problem might be on your end, so to speak).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Beyond, are you sure you want to be with a guy like this? Not all men are so sensitive and take things so personally. I am sure I have said worse to my husband than anything I've read so far in this thread. He doesn't take it personally.

Beyond, I think your husband is hiding behind something else, too. Please don't take this on yourself. If you apologized and you're trying to work on this, that should be good enough. (I doubt he is flawless, either.) 

And if it's not, I would urge you to move on from the marriage.


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## Little Lion (Jun 30, 2014)

Was foreplay used before you two had intercourse? Maybe the two of you should focus on touching and relaxing before you go all the way..


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Completely agree TAG. It goes without saying that the hurtful words must stop immediately.
> 
> 
> 
> This thread brings up yet another disservice we, as a society, do to our young males. They have feelings just as women do. They get hurt just as women do. But we have cut off their ability to cope with that hurt by ascribing them to stoicism as their only outlet.



Case in point:




jld said:


> Beyond, are you sure you want to be with a guy like this? Not all men are so sensitive and take things so personally. I am sure I have said worse to my husband than anything I've read so far in this thread. He doesn't take it personally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Beyond, are you sure you want to be with a guy like this? Not all men are so sensitive and take things so personally. I am sure I have said worse to my husband than anything I've read so far in this thread. He doesn't take it personally.
> 
> Beyond, I think your husband is hiding behind something else, too. Please don't take this on yourself. If you apologized and you're trying to work on this, that should be good enough. (I doubt he is flawless, either.)
> 
> And if it's not, I would urge you to move on from the marriage.




You have to remember. Your particular marriage dynamic includes a very small portion of all marriages. VERY few!

I'm also quite sure that your husband enjoys it when you call him a, "useless fvck" end sarcasm.


As far as the op's husband, He's a victim of *verbal abuse*. So lets see how many hypocrites there are out there and tell me it's not ok for a man to do, but a woman has free pass on this one.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Beyond,

If a large part of the problem is that you are very tight and so it's hard to have intercourse there are things that you can do for this.

Have you ever had a pelvic exam? If so has a doctor ever told you that your vag. is unusually small or tight?

Perhaps you could go see a doctor about this as see what can be done to make your body more able to handle sex.

The problems you two are having with sex is not just one big problem. It's a group of issues. If you tackle them one at a time, it can shrink the problem over time.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Beyond,
> 
> If a large part of the problem is that you are very tight and so it's hard to have intercourse there are things that you can do for this.


I don't think it is a matter of "tight" but that she is suffering from Vaginismus.



> Vaginismus, sometimes anglicized vaginism, is the physical or psychological condition that affects a woman's ability to engage in any form of vaginal penetration
> 
> ----
> 
> A woman suffering from vaginismus does not consciously control the spasm. The vaginismic reflex can be compared to the response of the eye shutting when an object comes towards it. The severity of vaginismus, as well as the pain during penetration (including sexual penetration), varies from woman to woman.


With no previous experience, this may be the problem. I concur with the advice that she should go see a doctor.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

larry.gray said:


> I don't think it is a matter of "tight" but that she is suffering from Vaginismus.
> 
> 
> 
> With no previous experience, this may be the problem. I concur with the advice that she should go see a doctor.


This is why I suggested that she see a doctor. I'll leave it up the doc to do the diagnosis and treatment plan.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> Luckily, there are those that defend against eradication. You are making an assumption that pre-marital sex always prepares the couple for a lifetime of blissful sex. I can see how you can logically make that argument. It has some merit. But it doesn't always hold true.


I am in no way making the assumption that premarital sex always prepares a couple for a lifetime of blissful sex. What it does ALWAYS do, however, is gives them the information they need to make an informed decision to get married. It's like people who say, they never discussed whether or not they both wanted to have kids until after the wedding. Why would you leave such a HUGE nut of an issue completely unexamined before taking the plunge? It completely minimizes the idea of sexual compatibility - "oh, I'm sure it will be fine," or "oh, I'm sure we'll be able to figure it out" - when there are zillions of examples of people struggling with the sexual aspect of their marriage. It is moronic to me.....sorry to use such a strong word, but it really is.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Windwalker said:


> You have to remember. Your particular marriage dynamic includes a very small portion of all marriages. VERY few!
> 
> I'm also quite sure that your husband enjoys it when you call him a, "useless fvck" end sarcasm.
> 
> ...


I know he did not enjoy it. And I did not enjoy getting upset. I didn't know how to get through to him. And he did not know how to listen.

And it is verbal abuse. And it was probably emotional abuse on his part. And it was not a dealbreaker for either one of us.

My marriage is not fragile. It can withstand a lot. I think this is a test for this guy, and I think he's failing it, in a big way.

0P, were you yelling because you felt overwhelmed and powerless to change something that you thought should be different? I think you were blaming him because you he felt he had more power over the situation then you did. But he didn't really. He didn't know any more than you did. It wasn't anyone's fault what happened. 

But his response to it, especially three years on, concerns me. 

OP, life can be really hard. You are going to face challenges that you can't even imagine right now. Don't you want to do it with someone who can withstand great challenge? Who is not beside himself because of a few harsh words that I don't think were even truly heartfelt, but were more just a product of temporary frustration, more than anything? Don't you want to be with a man who can look beyond your words, to see the underlying emotions? And then be able to deal with the underlying emotions, in an effective way?

I think a woman like you needs a man who can handle your emotions without taking them personally. I think your life would be much smoother.

If you were my daughter, in your situation, with no children, I would tell you to tell him that he needs to take responsibility for his own feelings and his own reactions. It is a pretty heavy load for a woman to carry a man her whole life. It's not what I want for my daughter, and it's not what I want for you, either.

Obviously, do whatever you want. But just know that not all of us are blaming _you _for _his _reactions.

Also, look into active listening.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

jld said:


> Also, look into active listening.



And a vegan diet!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> And a vegan diet!


Yeah, that would be good, too.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Personal said:


> Yes! I presume you believe a man is easily emasculated? In other words a mans ego is so delicate and fragile that they need to be lied to, in order to have a sense of worth.
> 
> As I read your opinion, am I right to believe that you feel a marriage should be built upon a foundation of dishonesty?
> 
> ...


You really should reread what I posted. I have absolutely no issue with her telling him the truth that things did not work.

What I do have an issue with is the disrespect by saying that he was not a man because he did not figure it out. What she said was disrespectful and mean. She could have communicated the truth in a non-hurtful manner. For that, she should apologize. 

Being truthful is not carte blanche to be intentionally hurtful. The truth can be conveyed without being disrespectful. I continue to believe that is their core problem. They communicate in hurtful ways and he shuts down because of it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Beyond, are you sure you want to be with a guy like this? Not all men are so sensitive and take things so personally. I am sure I have said worse to my husband than anything I've read so far in this thread. He doesn't take it personally.
> 
> Beyond, I think your husband is hiding behind something else, too. Please don't take this on yourself. If you apologized and you're trying to work on this, that should be good enough. (I doubt he is flawless, either.)
> 
> And if it's not, I would urge you to move on from the marriage.


Beyond - as you can see, some posters believe that you, as a woman, have no responsibility for any of your actions. Others disagree. I hope you consider that carefully.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Beyond said:


> We both had limited experience prior to each other. I had never been with anyone else. He had fooled around, just kissing & maybe touching here and there but was also a virgin when we got married.
> 
> He did mentioned in the past of being afraid of getting called out again when sex doesnt go right


And you wonder why he does not initiate? 

Look, you have to fix the communication dynamic first. But then, as nora points out, you both need to learn up about your bodies and how they work. Start together and do it slowly. Making out, then touching, etc. Be clear that the only right way to do something is the two of you together.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Let me get this straight. He couldn't get it in and didn't want to hurt her. For that his manliness was called into question by the woman he had JUST pledged his life to. They same woman who had JUST promised to stand beside him in good times and bad. And he shouldn't have taken it personally? Water off a ducks back and all that? AND not only was it NOT a personal attack against him, it was also TRUE? After all no one told her she should have lied to him, yet some posters are saying truth is important. I assume that means you agree that he's not a man. So, he's not a man because he didn't just shove it in, because he actually cared about hurting his wife. Got it.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

jld said:


> And if it's not, I would urge you to move on from the marriage.


This is a pro marriage forum. That kind of comment is OK on CWI, where people have done things that take their marriage past the point many consider recoverable.

This example doesn't even come close. Don't be advocating divorce so early in a marriage. Particularly to somebody who's already commented in believing in lifetime monogamy like the OP.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

jld said:


> I think a woman like you needs a man who can handle your emotions without taking them personally. I think your life would be much smoother. etc etc...


Let me write a shorter version of your post.

"It doesn't matter how much of a cruel, heartless b**** the woman is, the man should just deal with it rather than having any feelings of his own. He especially should not allow constant verbal abuse to affect his sex drive in any way. All real men are simply robots who produce and maintain erections on demand."

(this isn't directed at the OP, who has already acknowledge that she has issues with speaking angrily to loved ones and needs to change).

And again for the OP: no it is not normal, in my experience, to have to struggle for insertion when he's hard and you're wet. Either he's too big (there are online penis size charts, get out your tape measure and then you can google to see how hubs measures up) or you have vaginimus (don't have the normal elasticity).


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

jld said:


> I know he did not enjoy it. And I did not enjoy getting upset. I didn't know how to get through to him. And he did not know how to listen.
> 
> And it is verbal abuse. And it was probably emotional abuse on his part. And it was not a dealbreaker for either one of us.
> 
> ...


I don't believe I have done everything I could on my end to fix our problems. If I fix everything I could and we still have these issues, maybe then I'll think about how to move forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> Unless he's absolutely huge, the problem is on your end not his. Is he thicker than a D-cell mag light? If not, the problem is you're tensing up so much that no man is going to get in.
> 
> So not only did you cause this, you're blaming him for it.


I never blamed him for this. I accept my part in the mess I created
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Beyond- my wife was a virgin at 25 when we met...it took a year before we started having sex....just like you she was too tight for pic... Her mind was rated so pg she didn't even want my finger... Forget oral...... She never even pleasured herself...ever.'...It took years for piv. She thought itvwould all come naturally... I was so out of practice that I never built up any stamina... I though I had ed and gave up... Sex just sucked...


She didn't loosin up until we wanted to get pregnant... We started having sex way more and we got better... I realized I didn't have ed after all...

Then is slowed again after baby and sex was bad again until a few years ago when I pushed the quantity of sex and I got better at it... So did she..

. It takes practice and lots of it...

My wife still doesn't care for sex... Her mind doesn't go there all that much...

Her desire greatly effects my erection... With her negative words and actions can shrink me and keep me that way for a long time.

After 22 years we are not matched sexually...


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

All, 

Thank you for your comments. We are still yet to have the conversation, maybe we will get it out of the way tonight. 

I have gotten some really good advice from here and I would like to take some time to work on some of them, I will definitely be updating y'all if things turnaround.

I came here looking for a long term solution and also to search within myself how and what I should be doing. I will love to have a great sexlife and I know he does too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Best of luck to both of you.


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Beyond, are you sure you want to be with a guy like this? Not all men are so sensitive and take things so personally. I am sure I have said worse to my husband than anything I've read so far in this thread. He doesn't take it personally.
> 
> Beyond, I think your husband is hiding behind something else, too. Please don't take this on yourself. If you apologized and you're trying to work on this, that should be good enough. (I doubt he is flawless, either.)
> 
> And if it's not, I would urge you to move on from the marriage.


Jld, I read a lot here and have seen many of your posts and agree to an extent with your POV and i like you But I have to say on this your advice and perspective is border line criminal for lack of a better phrase . I know you are big on transparency. Let me assure you that your man and Every man has feelings, sensitivities and vulnerabilities ! They are not iron men made of stone no matter what they pretend for the world or what your husband pretends for you. Men, including yours, are hurt and effected by harsh words and bad treatment but I bet your husband will never, ever share that with you because he knows you will see him as less of man. So much for transparency.....is it really one sided and just for you?

Expressing your emotion as a woman or a man is never ok if it is done in a demeaning, belittling and disrespectful way and I will probably be banned for this not only because I'm kinda of thread jacking but one could argue that your man is actually weak for putting up with that behavior. Whether you believe it or not these types of antics are damaging to relationship no matter which gender it's coming from, 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

inarut said:


> Jld, I read a lot here and have seen many of your posts and agree to an extent with your POV and i like you But I have to say on this your advice and perspective is border line criminal for lack of a better phrase . I know you are big on transparency. Let me assure you that your man and Every man has feelings, sensitivities and vulnerabilities ! They are not iron men made of stone no matter what they pretend for the world or what your husband pretends for you. Men, including yours, are hurt and effected by harsh words and bad treatment but I bet your husband will never, ever share that with you because he knows you will see him as less of man. So much for transparency.....is it really one sided and just for you?
> 
> Expressing your emotion as a woman or a man is never ok if it is done in a demeaning, belittling and disrespectful way and I will probably be banned for this not only because I'm kinda of thread jacking but one could argue that your man is weak for putting up with that behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Rest assured that JLD would say the same thing to a man who was married to a woman who hung on to a hurt like this for years and years. 

She is not saying that men do not have feelings, sensitivities and vulnerabilities ! 

She's saying that no one should let one incident that occurred a long time ago ruin their marriage and make them not want to have sex with their spouse.

JLD can correct me if I'm wrong... but I think I know her point of view pretty well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Beyond,

Do keep us posted no matter how things go. And I do hope that you both work through this and start acting like bunnies.


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Rest assured that JLD would say the same thing to a man who was married to a woman who hung on to a hurt like this for years and years.
> 
> She is not saying that men do not have feelings, sensitivities and vulnerabilities !
> 
> ...



But it isn't a one time incident not for jld or the op it's an ongoing issue and as I said it isn't ok for a woman or a man.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

inarut said:


> But it isn't a one time incident not for jld or the op it's an ongoing issue


My understanding is that for the OP, the thing she said related to sex on their honeymoon was a one-time incident. He is clinging to this one thing that she said and because of this one thing he has trouble having sex with her.

Now I also understand that the OP admits that in the past she spoke rudely to her husband at times... but these were not related to sex. He's also not happy about these things. But they are not so directly related to sex.

OP can clarify if I'm wrong.

JLD apparently believes that no one should internalize the harsh words spoken to them by others. But this is not JLD"s thread so I'll leave it at that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inarut said:


> Jld, I read a lot here and have seen many of your posts and agree to an extent with your POV and i like you But I have to say on this your advice and perspective is border line criminal for lack of a better phrase . I know you are big on transparency. Let me assure you that your man and Every man has feelings, sensitivities and vulnerabilities ! They are not iron men made of stone no matter what they pretend for the world or what your husband pretends for you. Men, including yours, are hurt and effected by harsh words and bad treatment but I bet your husband will never, ever share that with you because he knows you will see him as less of man. So much for transparency.....is it really one sided and just for you?
> Hi, inarut. Thanks for your feedback. It's always good to hear sincere opinions.
> 
> I don't think DH is pretending anything for me. He did not enjoy when I got upset and yelled at him, but he made efforts to understand why. He said many times that he does not listen, and he has the tendency to take me for granted.
> ...


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

And those are all great qualities. You can still be angry, scream and yell without degrading, belittling and disrespecting another. Whether the other person lets it effect them or not does not make it ok. Do you thinkk Jesus would approve?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inarut said:


> But it isn't a one time incident not for jld or the op it's an ongoing issue and as I said it isn't ok for a woman or a man.


I don't think the OP or I feel good about it. I don't think either of us have wanted to raise our voices to our husbands, or to say unkind words. My problem was feeling powerless in my marriage, and that's why I was asking the OP if she felt the same way.

MEM really challenged me on this a few weeks ago. It really made me think about why I would lose my temper. From thinking about it, I developed an action plan. Maybe it would help the OP?

OP, now when I feel I'm getting upset with my husband, I use I statements. "I feel x when I see/hear y." It sounds really simple, but it really works. I used to ask DH all the time. Now I just use the I statements. I make my desires known. I don't always get what I want, but I am clear.

The other part, OP, for me, at least, is being able to hear No. That is really hard, but it is an inevitable part of life for all of us.

Another thing MEM told me that really helps is, "Show him your pain, not your fury." Twice last Saturday I used those I statements with DH, and both times I started crying. Anger is usually the second emotion; hurt is the first.

Fwiw, DH took a look at this thread today, and was amazed at some of the responses. Maybe he will make his own post tomorrow.

We're not going to learn much if we all agree on the forum. I think we probably learn more from the disagreements.


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't think the OP or I feel good about it. I don't think either of us have wanted to raise our voices to our husbands, or to say unkind words. My problem was feeling powerless in my marriage, and that's why I was asking the OP if she felt the same way.
> 
> MEM really challenged me on this a few weeks ago. It really made me think about why I would lose my temper. From thinking about it, I developed an action plan. Maybe it would help the OP?
> 
> ...


This I can respect. What I can't respect is not only making excuses for and minimizing bad behavior but calling the offended party weak and unworthy for reacting to it and having it effect them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inarut said:


> And those are all great qualities. You can still be angry, scream and yell without degrading, belittling and disrespecting another. Whether the other person lets it effect them or not does not make it ok. Do you thinkk Jesus would approve?


I think Jesus would seek to understand, inarut. And he would solve the root problem.

Inarut, you understand that the person yelling and calling names and saying bad words is doing so because they feel powerless, right? If they felt they could get what they wanted without doing that, they wouldn't bother doing it. I really doubt they _want_ to do it. They probably just don't know a more effective way of dealing with their anger and frustration. 

Inarut, I don't know how old you are, but I have spent 44 years giving other people my power. I have let them get to me, with their unkind words and their unkind actions. I don't want to keep doing that.

If I'm always letting people get to me, then I'm like a plastic raft bouncing up-and-down on the sea. Just about anything at all could come along and capsize me. 

I want to be a lighthouse. No matter the weather around me, I am solid. 

We don't have to give our power to other people, inarut. We don't have to let them get to us.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

inarut said:


> This I can respect. What I can't respect is not only making excuses for and minimizing bad behavior but calling the offended party weak and unworthy for reacting to it and having it effect them.


Those are externals, inarut. Why focusing on externals, when by focusing on internals, the externals will right themselves?

Offended usually just means hurt pride. And reacting is just giving away our power.

Empowerment, inarut. See past the words, into the person's heart. They are scared and weak and hurting inside. Feel compassion for them. 

When we push past our pride, we can see their pain. And we see that their behavior is more about them than it is about us.


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

jld said:


> I think Jesus would seek to understand, inarut. And he would solve the root problem.
> 
> Inarut, you understand that the person yelling and calling names and saying bad words is doing so because they feel powerless, right? If they felt they could get what they wanted without doing that, they wouldn't bother doing it. I really doubt they _want_ to do it. They probably just don't know a more effective way of dealing with their anger and frustration.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying . I seek the same thing. I'm not a child and have my own experiences. You are not owning your power when you act that way....still giving it away.... But let's end this thread jack


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Personal said:


> Likewise you should really reread what I posted in context. Since you took issue with, my taking issue with the suggestion that she should be dishonest with her husband, and fake sexual pleasure, while not feeling sexual pleasure.
> 
> While I argued against deceit and rug sweeping (dishonest relationships don't make great marriages), you decided to take issue with my argument?
> 
> ...


It is an issue of respect. So she was wrong for insulting him and she should apologize and admit that. You said it was not wrong, though you think she should apologize for it, which strikes me as contradictory. 

As far as the rest, I don't disagree that shutting down is poor behavior. But, as you may have noticed, he is not here to receive advice. The only person that OP can change is herself. So we can agree that he is an awful human being, pile on that he is not a real man and seat her in the victim chair, recognizing that nothing will change. Or we give her some ideas on how to change the dynamic, because she is the one here. I prefer the latter, but she gets to decide what approach she wants to take.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Rest assured that JLD would say the same thing to a man who was married to a woman who hung on to a hurt like this for years and years.
> 
> She is not saying that men do not have feelings, sensitivities and vulnerabilities !
> 
> ...


My experience is that should would not say that to a man. She has been quite clear that men get the marriage they deserve. if a women treats them poorly, it is a reflection on the man, his character and how he conducts himself. The same does not apply to women.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is an issue of respect. So how about he earns her respect?So she was wrong for insulting him and she should apologize and admit that. She did, didn't she? You said it was not wrong, though you think she should apologize for it, which strikes me as contradictory. I think he just wants her to get her feelings out there, rather than stuff them.
> 
> As far as the rest, I don't disagree that shutting down is poor behavior. But, as you may have noticed, he is not here to receive advice. The only person that OP can change is herself. So we can agree that he is an awful human being, pile on that he is not a real man and seat her in the victim chair, recognizing that nothing will change. Or we give her some ideas on how to change the dynamic, because she is the one here. I prefer the latter, but she gets to decide what approach she wants to take. I was not saying she was a victim. I think she needs to be realistic about his capabilities, though. A strong woman needs a strong man. Not a man who's going to be overpowered by her mere words.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> My experience is that should would not say that to a man. She has been quite clear that men get the marriage they deserve. if a women treats them poorly, it is a reflection on the man, his character and how he conducts himself. The same does not apply to women.


I think women have a tendency to look up to men in marriage. This gives men the power advantage. I think they need to use that power in the wisest way. I don't think that having the power advantage, and then demanding equality, is the most effective route to a happy marriage.

If you have the power, use it wisely.

And I totally agree with Ele that holding onto resentments for years, and letting them affect the present and the future, is not the route to happiness. 

Good grief, I have done it. Learn from my mistakes. Don't give other people your power. Don't let them get to you.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> And I totally agree with Ele that holding onto resentments for years, and letting them affect the present and the future, is not the route to happiness.


But this ignores her behavior since then. In her own words, she continued that same kind of interaction with him. So I don't see this as her making a mistake three years ago and him refusing to let go of his resentment. Rather, she made that mistake three years ago and continues that behavior through today. His resentment and issues stem from her repeated conduct.

Again, I am not saying he is blameless. But she is the one here. So she needs to make the first effort by changing her actions.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

OP I think you need to see a gyn about your vag issue and then you need to realize and know that words hurt even the strongest man when it's coming from the woman they love. It's good to learn how to speak your truth in a way that doesn't obliterate the other person.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> But this ignores her behavior since then. In her own words, she continued that same kind of interaction with him. So I don't see this as her making a mistake three years ago and him refusing to let go of his resentment. Rather, she made that mistake three years ago and continues that behavior through today. His resentment and issues stem from her repeated conduct.
> 
> Again, I am not saying he is blameless. But she is the one here. So she needs to make the first effort by changing her actions.


And I showed her how I think she can do that. 

And I still think he's responsible for dealing with his feelings.

Either of them could go first. He is not powerless, TAG. 

OP, any chance your husband would come here?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> And I showed her how I think she can do that.
> 
> And I still think he's responsible for dealing with his feelings.
> 
> Either of them could go first. He is not powerless, TAG.


Of course not. But he ain't here, she is.



> OP, any chance your husband would come here?


LOL. Because a women should never have to change her behavior in a marriage on her own.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Of course not. But he ain't here, she is.
> 
> And we have addressed her issues. Some of us did it constructively.
> 
> LOL. Because a women should never have to change her behavior in a marriage on her own.


I gave her ideas for how to do that, that get to the root of the problem. 

TAG, I get the feeling you believe this man is powerless in the face of harsh words.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> I gave her ideas for how to do that, that get to the root of the problem.
> 
> TAG, I get the feeling you believe this man is powerless in the face of harsh words.


Not at all. I just don't believe that women are powerless or always the victim. Nor do I believe that a women has no responsibility in a relationship. 

Contrast your advice in this thread (she should consider leaving him and he needs to fix things, not her) with your advice to a man earlier today:



> Well, to me, his fixing his side would invite her trust. And it is something he has complete control over.


We have a fundamental disagreement on the nature of relationships and the ability of women. Hence my posts.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> We have a fundamental disagreement on the nature of relationships and the ability of women. Hence my posts.


Could you elaborate, please?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Could you elaborate, please?


As I noted, you have been quite clear that men get the marriage they deserve. if a women treats them poorly, it is a reflection on the man, his character and how he conducts himself. The same does not apply to women. Women, on the other hand, have no obligation to do anything unless and until the man gives them everything they need. Women are the victim whenever a marriage is not going well, as that is the man's fault.

I disagree with most all of that.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

My wife and I were late getting somewhere once, and she told me I needed to "drive like a man." I drive sorta slow. I just usually don't worry about how fast I'm going and don't want a ticket so. She was poking a little fun at me, but it still stung a little bit. I can't immagine if she'd said something like that during sex. I usually don't care what people say but this is my wife, my best friend. Her opinion matters to me. So, given that context, the not a man thing would hit especially hard coming from her. I don't think there are many men who wouldn't be put off by it. Add in the fact that this guy was a virgin AND it really wasn't his fault anyway. I can see it shaking him up pretty good.


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

have you guys tried any lube?
being wet isn't always enough.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> As I noted, you have been quite clear that men get the marriage they deserve. Generally speaking, yes. How else do you motivate a man? if a women treats them poorly, it is a reflection on the man, his character and how he conducts himself. Taking ownership, instead of blaming her, is empowering. The same does not apply to women. You obviously did not read my posts to Ella. But, yes, I do hold men responsible for their marriages. I think they have greater accountability. However, if the female is dominant and the male is submissive, this accountability may be altered. Not sure about that. It's not what I have lived, nor had much experience with around me. Women, on the other hand, have no obligation to do anything unless and until the man gives them everything they need. Again, you did not read my posts to Ella. There are things that women can do that can be helpful, like active listening. But I still think it's asking a lot for a woman to save her marriage all by herself. With ella, I was trying. I thought active listening could get the ball rolling, and maybe her husband would pick it up. I don't think divorce is easy to go through, either, especially when there's a child involved.Women are the victim whenever a marriage is not going well, as that is the man's fault. I think his responsibility is greater than 50%.
> 
> I disagree with most all of that. Would you like to explain why?.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Why is his responsibility greater than 50%?

Why does the man have greater accountability?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Why is his responsibility greater than 50%?
> 
> Why does the man have greater accountability?


Because he is a man and women are weak.....


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> Because he is a man and women are weak.....


And besides, it keeps things simple. Whatever is going on in the marriage, it's the husband's fault.

What are you, some kind of simplicity-hater?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I honestly want to know the logic behind that feeling. It's so different than how I see relationships..I need to understand it.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

jld said:


> Would you like to explain why (you disagree with me)?


jld, you are asserting there is a natural asymmetry in the rights, abilities, and responsibilities of men and women in a marriage. In this day and age, the burden of proof to justify and support that belief is on you, not us.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I honestly want to know the logic behind that feeling. It's so different than how I see relationships..I need to understand it.


I think heterosexual women in relationships with heterosexual men often look up to them. I think this creates a power differential. Whoever has greater power has greater accountability, I believe.

As'laDain's article from a few months ago said that about two thirds of men are dominant and one third are submissive. I did not know so many men were submissive. But I think it may explain the disconnect that I have with so many people here.

If a man is submissive in his marriage, he's not going to feel or understand the power that I am claiming he has. And that makes sense. He does not have it. And that is something that I have had a hard time seeing.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

The way I'm understanding this is you feel there is always a dominant and a submissive in every relationship. Is that correct? 

How do you determine which person is dominant and which is submissive? What if they switch that role depending on the situation?

Do you believe it's one sided regarding looking up to the other person? Do you believe it's a female thing or do you believe men can look up to their wives too? Also,when you say "look up to" just so I'm clear,what exactly do you mean? Admire for strengths or look up to for direction/guidance?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

> Would you like to explain why?


Women have agency and power. They are part of the relationship and have the ability to shape it. They are not children, nor do they get to act like one. 

It is also not binary as you seem to see it. That a woman has the ability to change things does not mean the man in the relationship does not also have the ability and responsibility to change and do work. One rarely precludes the other.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> The way I'm understanding this is you feel there is always a dominant and a submissive in every relationship. Is that correct?
> 
> How do you determine which person is dominant and which is submissive? What if they switch that role depending on the situation?


I think so. But I keep looking for challenges to this, to see if it really is true.

That's a good question, determining dominance. I want to say you just feel it, but I know that's not a very good answer. I don't have a better one right now.

This doesn't mean that each does not have areas where they are the leader. But I do think you get a feeling of who, overall, is dominant in the relationship.

Yes, I know some people switch. I know we don't. We've been pretty firmly in our roles for the last 21 years. 

I think the switching orientation requires a certain natural flexibility.

Tbh, Scarlet, I have not done a ton of reading on power differentials. Most of what I believe just comes from my own experience and from my observations of people around me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Do you believe it's one sided regarding looking up to the other person? Do you believe it's a female thing or do you believe men can look up to their wives too? Also,when you say "look up to" just so I'm clear,what exactly do you mean? Admire for strengths or look up to for direction/guidance?


I think admiring people is different than looking up to them. Looking up to them, to me, implies a certain amount of power that you're giving to them. You feel like they know better than you, and if you listen to them, you can improve your own life. They have a certain investment in you, too. They benefit from your improvement, too.

Certainly, some wives are dominant, and some husbands are submissive. I think that's what FW was trying to tell me for a long time. But the idea feels very foreign to me, and so it has taken a while for it to get into my thinking. But it needs to be there, because it is indeed a reality for some marriages. And if we don't look at reality, we will never understand it.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> I think admiring people is different than looking up to them. Looking up to them, to me, implies a certain amount of power that you're giving to them. You feel like they know better than you, and if you listen to them, you can improve your own life. They have a certain investment in you, too. They benefit from your improvement, too.
> 
> Certainly, some wives are dominant, and some husbands are submissive. I think that's what FW was trying to tell me for a long time. But the idea feels very foreign to me, and so it has taken a while for it to get into my thinking. But it needs to be there, because it is indeed a reality for some marriages. And if we don't look at reality, we will never understand it.


ok that makes sense to me. I was trying to figure out why I have such a massive disconnect to the things you post and you've helped me figure it out. Thanks


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Certainly, some wives are dominant, and some husbands are submissive.


And sometimes, both the husband and the wife are dominant. Or both are submissive. Or one or both is neither.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> ok that makes sense to me. I was trying to figure out why I have such a massive disconnect to the things you post and you've helped me figure it out. Thanks


You're welcome. Would you like to explain how you see relationships? It would help me understand your posts better.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> And sometimes, both the husband and the wife are dominant. Or both are submissive. Or one or both is neither.


Yeah, but I think one is going to cede power. I think a dominant female will submit to a more dominant male.

Not really sure what two submissives do.

What do you mean about the neither part?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

well,just in regard to the looking up thing,I feel both people have valuable things to teach each other. I look to my husband to guide me and teach me certain things but I also have a teaching/guiding role for other things. I think we base our shared power on our strengths and weaknesses. We don't feel either person knows better or best overall but we recognize the areas where he has more experience or I have more experience. 

our dominance is fluid I believe. It would have to be.I can't have someone who is totally submissive at all times and I can't have someone who is dominant at all times. Dh is the same way. 

If I say something harsh to DH,I never blame him for being hurt over it.I blame myself for not finding a better way to express my feelings...I blame myself for not speaking in a way that helped him rather than hurt him. He has no control over my words but I do. I have the power to hurt him deeply with my words just as he has the power to hurt me deeply with his words. We recognize our equal power here and do our best to speak responsibly.

ETA FTR I don't think our way of being is necessarily right or perfect for everyone.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Yeah, but I think one is going to cede power. I think a dominant female will submit to a more dominant male.
> 
> Not really sure what two submissives do.
> 
> What do you mean about the neither part?


People are complicated. Some folks are dominate in some areas but not others. Some cede power in some areas but not others. Such that they will not be considered either dominate or submissive.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

jld said:


> As'laDain's article from a few months ago said that about two thirds of men are dominant and one third are submissive.




Well, that settles it then! I guess there was no option on the form for "neither"?



> jld: Looking up to them, to me, implies a certain amount of power that you're giving to them. You feel like they know better than you, and if you listen to them, you can improve your own life.


In my marriage, I take charge when it comes to fixing stuff around the house, navigating, and helping my wife be a bit more laid back and less uptight. I also give her career advice. So I'm the dominant one! 

:smthumbup:

But wait, she is in charge of cooking and meal planning, vacation planning, housework scheduling (because she is simply better at all that stuff), and she also earns more money than me. So I guess she's the dominant one?

:scratchhead:

Or maybe your binary classification system of everyone into either "dominant" or "submissive" is crap. :rofl:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> People are complicated. Some folks are dominate in some areas but not others. Some cede power in some areas but not others. Such that they will not be considered either dominate or submissive.


That's not a switch?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> Or maybe your classification system is crap. :rofl:


I'm sure what she says is true for her and her marriage. The disconnect comes in her myopia/refusal to understand that not many marriages share the same power dynamics as hers. There aren't that many where you can accurately assign one person the role of "sub" and the other "dom". More often, the dynamics are far more complicated.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> Or maybe your classification system is crap. :rofl:


Could be. I always consider challenges to my ideas.

You seem defensive. Why?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GTdad said:


> I'm sure what she says is true for her and her marriage. The disconnect comes in her myopia/refusal to understand that not many marriages share the same power dynamics as hers. There aren't that many where you can accurately assign one person the role of "sub" and the other "dom". More often,*the dynamics are far more complicated.*


Would you like to give an example?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

jld said:


> Would you like to give an example?


No, because it should be abundantly self-evident. If it's not, I suspect that I'm not up to the task of adequately explaining it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

_People who tend to be submissive bring out a dominant person's protective instincts_.

I just found the above over on Yahoo. I think that's probably a good point. 

I don't protect men. I assume they can take care of themselves. I don't understand when other women do it. I would think men would be embarrassed by it. The whole dom/sub difference is all I can come up with.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> _People who tend to be submissive bring out a dominant person's protective instincts_.
> 
> I just found the above over on Yahoo. I think that's probably a good point.
> 
> I don't protect men. I assume they can take care of themselves. I don't understand when other women do it. I would think men would be embarrassed by it. The whole dom/sub difference is all I can come up with.


by protect, do you mean control your emotions and weigh your words? 

If that's what you mean,why do you feel a man would be embarrassed by that? Adults can take care of themselves in general but do you think it's ok for a female to react however she wants bc her partner can take care of himself? 

I guess what you feel is protecting a man is what I call respecting a human being. Using the "you're not a real man" comment as an example...by not saying that to my husband I feel I'm showing care and respect.I don't feel I'm protecting him though bc he still has to hear my feelings...just not in such a cutthroat way.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Beyond, 

From my seat, I see you have brought up 2 separate problems:

1. Your husband's inability to deal with conflict and the resulting fallout (erectile dysfunction.)

2. Sexual problems, tight vagina and ejaculating too soon.


Addressing #1. If he has resentment toward you, and insecurities about his performance, he might have discovered that masturbating is a way to get his sexual need met, without dealing with the other issues. The problem with this is that masturbating will prevent him from working on the issues. Masturbating to avoid conflict will in the long run cause more conflict. Your are hurting because of the lack of sex, that will eventually build to deep frustration, resentment and anger if it continues over a long period of time. He needs to talk with you, be vulnerable with you, and you need to listen to his side. I believe you have, but he needs to keep talking and not shut down and go off by himself.

Addressing #2. You need to work on how to loosen your vagina so it is not painful for you, and not stressful for him. Try him doing oral sex, until you are about to orgasm. If you aren't into oral sex, then you can pleasure your own clitoris while he inserts his finger and massages/stimulates your vagina...maybe he can find your G spot.(You probably need to use lubricating jelly, and not just rely on your own ability to be wet. Jelly just makes it easier.)

When you are almost ready to have an orgasm, and are dying for him to be inside of you, then he can enter you...make sure he has plenty of lubricating jelly on his penis. If it doesn't work the first time, try it again next time. If you are both mentally into it, it will make things easier. Every sexually active woman had pain the first few times of sex, but she was excited enough to do it again and again.

Now for your husband's finishing too quickly: The more you two are able to have sex, the more familiar he will become with his own body. He will be able to sense when he is near orgasm, and stop moving until it subsides. He might get too close and he will orgasm anyway. But don't give up. Over time he will last longer and longer. (If he is masturbating, it might be contributing to his inability to last.)


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

jld said:


> Could be. I always consider challenges to my ideas.
> 
> You seem defensive. Why?


Your (mis)understanding of male/female relationships as being an entirely dom/sub game leads to some incredibly sexist advice, which might have sounded reasonable in 1950 (if then), but doesn't today. I'm not shy about blowing holes in your faulty reasoning.

I take charge in the areas I'm good at. My wife takes charge in the areas she's good at. Each has the responsibility to deliver criticism tactfully to the other. There's the "challenge" to your ideas. What other challenge is necessary?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> My understanding is that for the OP, the thing she said related to sex on their honeymoon was a *one-time incident.* He is clinging to this one thing that she said and because of this one thing he has trouble having sex with her.
> 
> Now I also understand that the OP admits that in the past she spoke rudely to her husband at times... but these were not related to sex. He's also not happy about these things. But they are not so directly related to sex.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter if it's a one time incident or not what matters is that the issue is resolved and since 3 years in the sex life isn't better then this is an unresolved issue. If OP has talked about it, apologized, and still nothing has changed then it's time for a trained professional to get involved. This will never go away unless resolved


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> by protect, do you mean control your emotions and weigh your words?
> 
> If that's what you mean,why do you feel a man would be embarrassed by that? Adults can take care of themselves in general but do you think it's ok for a female to react however she wants bc her partner can take care of himself?
> 
> I guess what you feel is protecting a man is what I call respecting a human being. Using the "you're not a real man" comment as an example...by not saying that to my husband I feel I'm showing care and respect.I don't feel I'm protecting him though bc he still has to hear my feelings...just not in such a cutthroat way.


I don't think women are a threat to men. I just don't see women that way, not in general, I guess.

Saying right/wrong, okay/not okay seems judgmental to me. I think each couple works out their own deal.

I guess if a group of women were attacking a man, I could see defending him. But I don't think secure men need it. 

I don't think anyone enjoys hurtful words. But I don't think secure people fall down because of them. 

And if those words do bother us, it is probably for a reason. We would be wise to look inside and honestly ask ourselves why, than to try to stop the other person from saying them. I don't think trying to control another person works long-term, anyway. If there were not some truth to those words, they would not bother us to start with.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> It doesn't matter if it's a one time incident or not what matters is that the issue is resolved and since 3 years in the sex life isn't better then this is an unresolved issue. If OP has talked about it, apologized, and still nothing has changed then it's time for a trained professional to get involved. This will never go away unless resolved


:iagree:

Words can cause a lot of damage but if she has been making better choices with how she expresses herself there is no reason for him to not forgive her for a one time knee jerk response. To continue harboring the anger and resentment for a one time lapse in self control is sort of like emotional blackmail to me. I had this issue w/my ex husband.He never forgave and never let things be in the past even after I bent over backward trying to make it right and make myself worthy of forgiveness. Maybe that's why I'm so hellbent on healthy expressions rather than knee jerk expressions.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Words can cause a lot of damage but if she has been making better choices with how she expresses herself there is no reason for him to not forgive her for a one time knee jerk response. To continue harboring the anger and resentment for a one time lapse in self control is sort of like emotional blackmail to me. I had this issue w/my ex husband.He never forgave and never let things be in the past even after I bent over backward trying to make it right and make myself worthy of forgiveness. Maybe that's why I'm so hellbent on healthy expressions rather than knee jerk expressions.


I don't think he knows how to let go.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> I don't think women are a threat to men. I just don't see women that way, not in general, I guess.
> 
> Saying right/wrong, okay/not okay seems judgmental to me. I think each couple works out their own deal.
> 
> ...



I'm realizing I'll never agree with your view on this. It's just a gap too huge to bridge even though I'm trying to understand it. ah oh well,I tried LOL


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## soulseer (Jul 26, 2013)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> I take charge in the areas I'm good at. My wife takes charge in the areas she's good at.


We work as a team. 

To win whover has the best skills for the situation must use them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm realizing I'll never agree with your view on this. It's just a gap too huge to bridge even though I'm trying to understand it. ah oh well,I tried LOL


I think we will just have to agree to disagree. But always feel free to express your pov to me. I don't think I would think of it on my own. 

And I think we all learn more when we disagree than when we agree.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't think he knows how to let go.


Well and that's what I am wondering. If he is doing this with intention then that's all on him. What I am wondering though and assuming in the other direction is he is also suffering for this miserable sex life. So maybe he has forgiven her but still can't get it out of his head. Hence the expert may be able to pull this out of him.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't think women are a threat to men. I just don't see women that way, not in general, I guess.


Firstly, that should have read "I don't see women AND MEN that way", because what you are saying has more to do with your views of men (that they are invulnerable to emotional injury) than with your views of women.

I can't be hurt by people I don't care about and don't have any respect for. I *can* be hurt by people I *do* care about who I *do* respect. This may sound shocking, but I'm not different from any other human being in that regard. 

Specifically, if I can't be hurt by a woman, that means I have no respect for her (since her opinions and judgements are a matter of complete indifference to me). It's like having my intellect questioned by an idiot... who cares? I know I'm right and the other person is a halfwit, so I regard their barbs with bemusement. However, that *hopefully* is not how a man should feel towards his wife.

If that's your view of the healthy male/female marriage dynamic (a 'secure' man has a complete lack of interest in her opinions and judgements, and thus no respect for her)... wow, OK. 


Anyway, back to the OP. I think she has gotten some good insight here and knows what she needs to do (medically and behaviourally), and there might be some for the man to do here too. However, I'd point out she wasn't too forthcoming about the nature of their sexual problems (it took until page seven until we found out that he's hard but she's too tight), so we don't know how often she's been henpecking him over their sex life, what she's been saying, etc. For all we know she's been driving him into the ground every day.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well and that's what I am wondering. If he is doing this with intention then that's all on him. What I am wondering though and assuming in the other direction is he is also suffering for this miserable sex life. So maybe he has forgiven her but still can't get it out of his head. Hence the expert may be able to pull this out of him.


I think it's something deeper. Can you imagine a man giving up sex because of some harsh words?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Words can cause a lot of damage but if she has been making better choices with how she expresses herself there is no reason for him to not forgive her for a one time knee jerk response. To continue harboring the anger and resentment for a one time lapse in self control is sort of like emotional blackmail to me. I had this issue w/my ex husband.He never forgave and never let things be in the past even after I bent over backward trying to make it right and make myself worthy of forgiveness. Maybe that's why I'm so hellbent on healthy expressions rather than knee jerk expressions.


Has she made those better choices? From her original post:



> Fast forward to this year, we have been having serious communication issues, a lot of hurtful words have been exchanged both ways.


It sure sounds like she is making the same mistakes. So any resentment from the initial incident is renewed, if you will, by the additional angry words. When you apologize for an action, then continue to repeat the action, people don't believe you are actually sorry.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Driving him into the ground? Is this a grown man we are talking about?

He is not powerless. They both need to learn effective communication techniques, and boundaries.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I think it's something deeper. Can you imagine a man giving up sex because of some harsh words?


Imagine it yes. Could I live it no. As described by the OP I could never be the husband in that scenario. First I'm not waiting till marriage to have sex. Second I'm having sex on my wedding night. That's just happening lol

But that's me....I have male friends who absolutely let their wives admonish them and berate them in public even.

When I was young and married we lived with a couple of friends of ours. My friend and his wife. She would her call him *******, butt boy and one time I was sitting watching football with him and from in their room I hear her yell "****head get your ass in here". That's not the most surprising thing though what was is that he got up and went down to see what she wanted. So yeah guys can get walked on, same as women.

With the OP husband what stands out is that he can get aroused but when it's time for sex he looses it. So something clearly is going on and it's possible that he is intimidated by what happened. Everyone is different


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wow, I don't know anyone like your friends, Wolf.

I don't know why he loses his erection. If they are a mismatch, I hope they move on before kids.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Would be nice to know what she said


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

6301 said:


> Would be nice to know what she said


I thought she called him a clueless f**k.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

jld said:


> I think it's something deeper. Can you imagine a man giving up sex because of some harsh words?


If my wife had said those things in that situation I would have walked away from the marriage. If you tolerate abuse it just continues.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

johnnycomelately said:


> If my wife had said those things in that situation I would have walked away from the marriage. If you tolerate abuse it just continues.


You would have freed both of you. You know your limits, what you can handle.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

yes Johnny,you must leave so she can find a stronger man who can handle her abusive ways. Heaven forbid she just stop being abusive to her fellow human beings. 

jld,do you really not have the ability to see when someone is verbally abusive?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> yes Johnny,you must leave so she can find a stronger man who can handle her abusive ways. Heaven forbid she just stop being abusive to her fellow human beings.
> 
> jld,do you really not have the ability to see when someone is verbally abusive?


In her view, he deserves it. Her (generic women) actions are a reflection of him (generic man) as a man. He gets what he deserves.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> yes Johnny,you must leave so she can find a stronger man who can handle her abusive ways. Heaven forbid she just stop being abusive to her fellow human beings.
> 
> jld,do you really not have the ability to see when someone is verbally abusive?


Yes, I do. There was a poster at the library that described it.

She wants to stop, scarlet. I tried to help her do that.

But realistically, we have no control over the behavior of other people. So it might be empowering for us to learn not to take it personally. We don't have to try to control other people that way. Freeing.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Yes, I do. There was a poster at the library that described it.
> 
> She wants to stop, scarlet. I tried to help her do that.
> 
> But realistically, we have no control over the behavior of other people. So it might be empowering for us to learn not to take it personally. We don't have to try to control other people that way. Freeing.


If your husband called you a stupid dumb sl*t who isn't even a real woman...would you take that personally? would you be hurt at all by that? Or would you just shrug it off because it's empowering to let him do that do you without taking it personal?


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

jld said:


> You would have freed both of you. You know your limits, what you can handle.


Tolerating abuse is a sign of weakness and low self-worth, it is not about 'limits' and 'what you can handle'. If she is going to lash out like that during the honeymoon period of the marriage what is she going to be like when the real stress sets in? Kids, a mortgage, health and financial issues? 

He is either going to spend the rest of his life taking it or 'handling' it. Why not find the strength to understand that you are worth more than that and find someone who is strong enough and confident enough to treat her partner with some sympathy and respect.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> If your husband called you a stupid dumb sl*t who isn't even a real woman...would you take that personally? would you be hurt at all by that? Or would you just shrug it off because it's empowering to let him do that do you without taking it personal?


Yes, _I_ would be hurt by that. It would be completely out of character for DH. 

Okay, I might laugh, because I would totally have lost respect for him from that moment forward, and it obviously is not true. Absurdity makes me laugh.

I don't see the sexes as androgynous, Scarlet. I think each one can handle more than the other in certain areas.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Yes, _I_ would be hurt by that. It would be completely out of character for DH.
> 
> Okay, I might laugh, because I would totally have lost respect for him from that moment forward, and it obviously is not true. Absurdity makes me laugh.
> 
> I don't see the sexes as androgynous, Scarlet. I think each one can handle more than the other in certain areas.


I don't think the sexes are androgynous either,Jld. I agree that each one has their own special set of strengths and weaknesses. To further that,each individual has their own set too which are not necessarily tied to their gender. 

Abuse is abuse though no matter your gender. Basically telling a man he walked away bc he couldn't handle being abused is outrageous,at least to me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't think the sexes are androgynous either,Jld. I agree that each one has their own special set of strengths and weaknesses. To further that,each individual has their own set too which are not necessarily tied to their gender.
> 
> Abuse is abuse though no matter your gender. Basically *telling a man he walked away bc he couldn't handle being abused *is outrageous,at least to me.


But is it true?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

No it's not true. What is true is that a man who stays does so because he's weak. You can't see that because you're an abuser.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> But is it true?


I don't feel it is true. A lot of men can handle being abused and handle it in stride. But they shouldn't have to handle it even though they can. 

I can handle eating an entire apple pie but I choose not to because it would make me miserable and I'd feel horrible about myself. 

Point is,just because you can handle something doesn't mean you should and it doesn't mean handling it is healthy.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> But is it true?


The problem is that you refuse to see it any other way. Him leaving could very well be him recognizing that he does not deserve the abuse and won't accept it. It can be recognizing that she does not love him the way he deserves to be loved. He can handle it, but decides there is no reason he should have to.

But to your mind, love is a one way street. A women deserves it unconditionally, while a man must earn it. So when a man walks away from bad behavior, you can't see it as anything other than a man being weak, not recognizing what he did to deserve that poor treatment and not truly loving her. 

That is the fundamental disconnect.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> No it's not true. What is true is that a man who stays does so because he's weak. You can't see that because you're an abuser.


He is weak? And I am an abuser? He is powerless, and I have overwhelming power?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't feel it is true. A lot of men can handle being abused and handle it in stride. But they shouldn't have to handle it even though they can.
> 
> I can handle eating an entire apple pie but I choose not to because it would make me miserable and I'd feel horrible about myself.
> 
> Point is,just because you can handle something doesn't mean you should and it doesn't mean handling it is healthy.


Some men are able to look past the words, to the emotions underneath. They know that that is where the real problem is. 

If we want to stop abuse, we have to address the _real problem. _ And the _real problem _is not the outburst.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

jld said:


> He is weak? And I am an abuser? He is powerless, and I have overwhelming power?



Your own posts reveal you to be emotionally abusive, yes. And Dug staying in the face of that is a sign of weakness and fear.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> The problem is that you refuse to see it any other way. Him leaving could very well be him recognizing that he does not deserve the abuse and won't accept it. It can be recognizing that she does not love him the way he deserves to be loved. He can handle it, but decides there is no reason he should have to.
> 
> But to your mind, love is a one way street. A women deserves it unconditionally, while a man must earn it. So when a man walks away from bad behavior, you can't see it as anything other than a man being weak, not recognizing what he did to deserve that poor treatment and not truly loving her.
> 
> That is the fundamental disconnect.


I don't think men are powerless. I think some are unwilling or unable to tap into their power. Probably mostly unwilling. 

Or maybe just not ready?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Some men are able to look past the words, to the emotions underneath. They know that that is where the real problem is.
> 
> If we want to stop abuse, we have to address the real problem. And the real problem is not the outburst.


The person having the outburst has no responsibility then? What if the man is the one having the outburst though? In the case of the OP of course it's not the man.But what if it was? Is it up to the woman to look past his abusive language to the emotions underneath? 

I agree the real problem isn't the outburst. The real problem is abusers not being able to govern themselves and communicate in a clear way that doesn't include hateful language and insults.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Your own posts reveal you to be emotionally abusive, yes. And Dug staying in the face of that is a sign of weakness and fear.


Dug and I both just laughed out loud, WOM.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

If I spoke to my husband the way you do to yours JLD, it would not be him walking away, it would be him pushing me out the door because he would not put up with it. He would not try to find a deeper meaning to my harsh words, he'd just tell me until I can speak to him like he is a human being to leave and not come back until I adjust my attitude.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> I don't think men are powerless. I think some are unwilling or unable to tap into their power. Probably mostly unwilling.
> 
> Or maybe just not ready?


LOL. Who said anything about powerless? Perhaps powerless is staying with an abusive spouse because he feels he has no power to do anything less?

Or perhaps the power is understanding that she is choosing to act in a certain way and he cannot make her change. So he exercises his power by walking away.

I do commend you on ignoring my point by misdirection. Your silence speaks volumes.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> The person having the outburst has no responsibility then? What if the man is the one having the outburst though? In the case of the OP of course it's not the man.But what if it was? Is it up to the woman to look past his abusive language to the emotions underneath? Some very strong women can do this. I don't know if I could. I'm torn on whether or not women should be advised to do this. If they have any inkling that he could become violent, I would advise against it.
> 
> I agree the real problem isn't the outburst. The real problem is abusers not being able to govern themselves and communicate in a clear way that doesn't include hateful language and insults.It does not make them feel good about themselves, that's for sure.
> 
> The _real problem _is why they felt that way in the first place. That is what has to be addressed if you want the outbursts to stop. Otherwise you risk repression of feelings, and those feelings manifesting in other unhealthy ways.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

karole said:


> If I spoke to my husband the way you do to yours JLD, it would not be him walking away, it would be him pushing me out the door because he would not put up with it. He would not try to find a deeper meaning to my harsh words, he'd just tell me until I can speak to him like he is a human being to leave and not come back until I adjust my attitude.


Would you like to be treated that way, karole? 

Some women on the forum have told me that that is what they prefer. If that is what she prefers, who am I to object?


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

No, I probably would not like to be treated that way, but it would be a consequence to my own actions.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> The real problem is why they felt that way in the first place. That is what has to be addressed if you want the outbursts to stop. Otherwise you risk repression of feelings, and those feelings manifesting in other unhealthy ways.


What if the real problem is they are entitled,spoiled,and feel it's ok to throw a tantrum to get their way and to control the situation? Then what? 

Would expecting a person to learn how to control their outbursts be asking them to repress their feelings in your opinion?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Some very strong women can do this. I don't know if I could. I'm torn on whether or not women should be advised to do this. If they have any inkling that he could become violent, I would advise against it.


Women can become violent too. very violent. A man might be physically stronger but it doesn't mean a woman can't physically hurt them if given the opportunity.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> LOL. Who said anything about powerless? Perhaps powerless is staying with an abusive spouse because he feels he has no power to do anything less? I think you're hitting on something that I could not see for a long time, and that is that some men do feel powerless in their marriages. That is not something I would think of, because the power differential in our marriage is heavily weighted towards my husband.
> 
> When people feel powerless, they try to control the actions of other people. They have to try to control what other people do, because they don't realize they have the power inside themselves to not let those people get to them. Eventually, if they work on themselves enough, they can actually reach out to those people. They can, through active listening, figure out what the real problem is that is causing the outbursts, and then develop an action plan to deal with it.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

karole said:


> No, I probably would not like to be treated that way, but it would be a consequence to my own actions.


Would you both be satisfied if the behavior just stopped?

Maybe for some couples that would be enough. I think it is more helpful to get to the root of the problem and work on solving that.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> *Some men are able to look past the words,* to the emotions underneath. They know that that is where the real problem is.
> 
> If we want to stop abuse, we have to address the _real problem. _ And the _real problem _is not the outburst.


And believe it or not, there ARE some women out there that do have self control...your poor view of women is just as startling as your poor view of men.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> The real problem is why they felt that way in the first place. That is what has to be addressed if you want the outbursts to stop. Otherwise you risk repression of feelings, and those feelings manifesting in other unhealthy ways.


Why? Why can there only be one real problem? Why can't a real problem be addressed in a healthy way? Why does an unaddressed problem excuse poor behavior?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Your own posts reveal you to be emotionally abusive, yes. And Dug staying in the face of that is a sign of weakness and fear.


And severe codependence. On both their parts. But hey...what ever works for them is great for them. It's just not healthy for most people.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> What if the real problem is they are entitled,spoiled,and feel it's ok to throw a tantrum to get their way and to control the situation? Then what? I think the problem with those words is that they could be considered words of judgment. I'm not sure that they help with solving the problem. And my focus is solving the problem, not just focusing on the symptoms of the problem.
> 
> How do you think she is controlling the situation? Do you think the man is powerless?
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Women can become violent too. very violent. A man might be physically stronger but it doesn't mean a woman can't physically hurt them if given the opportunity.


Certainly, a man would have to assess the risk, and do what he feels would be in the best interest of both of them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why? Why can there only be one real problem? Why can't a real problem be addressed in a healthy way? Why does an unaddressed problem excuse poor behavior?


TAG, I don't think in terms of right/wrong, okay/not okay, good/poor. I think in terms of How do we solve the problem? 

When we look at the root of behavior, and address that, the behavior will take care of itself.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Would you both be satisfied if the behavior just stopped?
> 
> Maybe for some couples that would be enough. I think it is more helpful to get to the root of the problem and work on solving that.


Most problems have several layers. What you have been describing are women with no self control...the proverbial bull in a china shop. Often times people with that little amount of self regulation, the inability to reign themselves in have issues that manifest themselves in other ways as well, so really, to get to the root of the problems, the first thing that needs to be addressed is what is it about the women that she does not have the ability to self regulate? Perhaps if she learned to be on an even keel, many of the other perceived problems would be solved as well.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> I think it's much harder to deal with people who cannot exteriorize their feelings. Outbursts, I think, are actually a sign of trust in the other person. That should not be underappreciated. People who cannot share their feelings are much more challenging to work with. You really need to earn their trust and make them feel safe enough to express themselves.


See when I was younger and having "outbursts" it had nothing to do with trust for my ex. I was used to having my way and when I didn't get my way I became verbally abusive. To me,abusive behavior like that has absolutely nothing to do with sharing feelings,trust,and feeling safe. It's all about attempting to control the situation by beating down the other person. 

I dated a girl once who used outbursts as her only means of communication. I'm a strong woman and i didn't find it easier to deal with her than someone who expresses themselves without throwing insults and screaming. 

As a former verbal abuser and someone who has been on the receiving end of verbal abuse, it's not easier and it's not better at all. The abuser needs to grow and learn better ways to handle their underlying emotions.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> And believe it or not, there ARE some women out there that do have self control...your poor view of women is just as startling as your poor view of men.


The goal is to have people expressing themselves clearly and directly, and for both partners to feel genuinely good about the relationship. Some just need a little help to get there.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

jld said:


> But realistically, we have no control over the behavior of other people. *So it might be empowering for us to learn not to take it personally.* We don't have to try to control other people that way. Freeing.


Hey, I can take abuse all day from people. Rolls off me like water off a duck's back. Bring it on!

This is easy if I have no respect for these people and don't give a s*** about them.

If it's my wife in a healthy marriage, different story.



> > If your husband called you a stupid dumb sl*t who isn't even a real woman...would you take that personally? would you be hurt at all by that? Or would you just shrug it off because it's empowering to let him do that do you without taking it personal?
> 
> 
> jld: Yes, I would be hurt by that.


I'll say it again. *Men are human beings just like you*. I know that sounds like a strange idea, and hard to believe at first, but try to imagine it.

If I were married to someone who is verbally abusive (as you apparently are to your husband), it wouldn't be a problem for long, and we wouldn't need to work through our other problems, as I'd be gone pretty fast. That abuse is just as much a problem as any of the other problems that led to the abusive outburst. I don't care how attractive you are, how good you are in bed, or any other quality you might have. I have no respect whatsoever for anyone, man or woman, who refuses to learn to govern their emotions and show some respect to their partner as they work things through. No respect = no marriage.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

jld said:


> TAG, I don't think in terms of right/wrong, okay/not okay, good/poor. I think in terms of How do we solve the problem?
> 
> When we look at the root of behavior, and address that, the behavior will take care of itself.


Most serious problems are addressed in steps, in my experience. Step one in this instance would be stopping the harmful behavior immediately, then we can address underlying causes.

In some cases, the underlying causes are irrelevant. For example, if one of my subordinates is sexually harrassing another employee, my concern is stopping that behavior immediately, one way or the other. I really don't care about underlying causes at all.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> *The goal is to have people expressing themselves clearly and directly*, and for both partners to feel genuinely good about the relationship. Some just need a little help to get there.


Right...and a tantrum, outburst is not expressing oneself clearly and directly.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Most problems have several layers. What you have been describing are women with no self control...the proverbial bull in a china shop. Often times people with that little amount of self regulation, the inability to reign themselves in have issues that manifest themselves in other ways as well, so really, to get to the root of the problems, the first thing that needs to be addressed is what is it about the women that she does not have the ability to self regulate? Perhaps is she learned to be on an even keel, many of the other perceived problems would be solved as well.


My husband says that different people have different natural capabilities. Why not using the strengths to the maximum effect?

I maintain that the behavior is a symptom of the problem. Focusing on the behavior may not be the most effective approach to truly solving the problem.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Right...and a tantrum, outburst is not expressing oneself clearly and directly.


It's not the most effective way.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> I think the problem with those words is that they could be considered words of judgment. I'm not sure that they help with solving the problem. And my focus is solving the problem, not just focusing on the symptoms of the problem.
> 
> How do you think she is controlling the situation? Do you think the man is powerless?
> 
> Would expecting a person to learn how to control their outbursts be asking them to repress their feelings in your opinion? My concern with that approach, the approach of just focusing on the symptom, the outburst, is that you may indeed stop the behavior, but the feelings will go underground and manifest in other ways, possibly much more destructive and harder to deal with than a simple outburst.


They are absolutely judgments.This type of behavior benefits no one. She is controlling the situation by not giving the person who loves her the same considerations and kindnesses he has given to her. He is not powerless because he can walk away. It takes courage and strength to stop letting your partner abuse you. It takes strength to remove yourself from an unhealthy environment. 

I'm not focusing on the symptom. I'm focusing on the problem.The abuser,the one with the outbursts,IS the problem. Their way of communicating is the problem. Their lack of self control is the problem. Sure,the outburst is a symptom of those problems. How do you fix that? By helping them learn a better way to express themselves. By helping them learn how to treat the people they love. By helping them learn they will receive greater control over their lives and greater love and respect from people if they communicate constructively.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> My husband says that different people have different natural capabilities. Why not using the strengths to the maximum effect?
> 
> *I maintain that the behavior is a symptom of the problem. * Focusing on the behavior may not be the most effective approach to truly solving the problem.


Absolutely, and what you keep talking about is a woman who has no self control. Let's explore that, get to the root of her problem that causes that behavior.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> See when I was younger and having "outbursts" it had nothing to do with trust for my ex. I was used to having my way and when I didn't get my way I became verbally abusive. To me,abusive behavior like that has absolutely nothing to do with sharing feelings,trust,and feeling safe. It's all about attempting to control the situation by beating down the other person. From what you have said, there were a lot of issues going with you into that marriage, plus the issues of the marriage itself. Controlling is all about feeling powerless, or trying to maintain power.
> 
> I dated a girl once who used outbursts as her only means of communication. I'm a strong woman and i didn't find it easier to deal with her than someone who expresses themselves without throwing insults and screaming. But someone who never expressed themselves ever? I think there are people out there like that, who have a very hard time exteriorizing. Trying to draw them out can be very challenging.
> 
> As a former verbal abuser and someone who has been on the receiving end of verbal abuse, it's not easier and it's not better at all. The abuser needs to grow and learn better ways to handle their underlying emotions. They will certainly be happier that way. That is certainly the ultimate goal.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> I'll say it again. *Men are human beings just like you*. I know that sounds like a strange idea, and hard to believe at first, but try to imagine it.


I will.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GTdad said:


> Most serious problems are addressed in steps, in my experience. Step one in this instance would be stopping the harmful behavior immediately, then we can address underlying causes.
> 
> In some cases, the underlying causes are irrelevant. For example, if one of my subordinates is sexually harrassing another employee, my concern is stopping that behavior immediately, one way or the other. I really don't care about underlying causes at all.


Sometimes the immediate focus _is _stopping the behavior, such as when someone is holding a gun.

I would encourage you not to be satisfied with just stopping the behavior. I would encourage you to address the underlying issues. Someone who is sexually harassing another person has issues that they will just take to another workplace. We can take the attitude that it's not our problem, or we can care enough to try to help. It's a service to greater society, and to the world.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> From what you have said, there were a lot of issues going with you into that marriage, plus the issues of the marriage itself. Controlling is all about feeling powerless, or trying to maintain power.


There were a lot of problems. Those problems and my feeling of powerlessness do not excuse my abusive behavior or justify it. 



jld said:


> But someone who never expressed themselves ever? I think there are people out there like that, who have a very hard time exteriorizing. Trying to draw them out can be very challenging.


My husband struggles with expressing himself. I'd rather deal with that than deal with someone hurling screaming insults at me. The challenge of dealing with a verbal abuser is far greater than trying to teach my husband how to express his love. Both are frustrating in their own way but the outbursts just chip away at your core and your strength day after day. It's like waking up to gunshots every day and never knowing when they'll break the silence and scare the hell out of you.

I feel pity for those who struggle to express themselves bc it doesn't come from a malicious or controlling place. I feel nothing but disdain for those who berate their partners and name call as a means of expression bc it comes from a very different state of mind.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> If I were married to someone who is verbally abusive (as you apparently are to your husband), it wouldn't be a problem for long, and we wouldn't need to work through our other problems, as I'd be gone pretty fast. I don't care how attractive you are, how good you are in bed, or any other quality you might have. I have no respect whatsoever for anyone, man or woman, who refuses to learn to govern their emotions and show some respect to their partner as they work things through. No respect = no marriage.


I'm a very average woman, MM. Nothing special in any way. 

And you are right: you would be doing both of us a favor by leaving me.


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## Hacker (Jul 14, 2014)

I used to get all hurt when my Wife would say mean things. Which would have an effect in the bed.

She would get mad about it, and would tell me to be a man. And I would say what im not allowed to have feelings. And she would say NO!! Man up, be a man. I missed out on some loving till I figured out what she was trying to tell me.

Not a problem now


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

It's funny how people can view things so differently - JLD sees her husband as more of a man because he tolerates her behavior - I would view my husband as less of a man if he tolerated that sort of behavior - from me or anyone.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

karole said:


> It's funny how people can view things so differently - JLD sees her husband as more of a man because he tolerates her behavior - I would view my husband as less of a man if he tolerated that sort of behavior - from me or anyone.


It is definitely wild how different we all see things. I judge my husband's man status on how little bad behavior he tolerates rather than how much bad behavior he tolerates. 

I wonder if what we saw as children has anything to do with that?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

karole said:


> It's funny how people can view things so differently - JLD sees her husband as more of a man because he tolerates her behavior - I would view my husband as less of a man if he tolerated that sort of behavior - from me or anyone.


It's almost as if we're speaking different languages. The hope for understanding is pretty slim when one guy is speaking Xhosa and the other Ossetian.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

jld said:


> Sometimes the immediate focus _is _stopping the behavior, such as when someone is holding a gun.
> 
> I would encourage you not to be satisfied with just stopping the behavior. I would encourage you to address the underlying issues. Someone who is sexually harassing another person has issues that they will just take to another workplace. We can take the attitude that it's not our problem, or we can care enough to try to help. It's a service to greater society, and to the world.


I'll take your management advice under consideration, thanks.


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## Hacker (Jul 14, 2014)

I think a lot of women feed their sexual desire when they have a strong man.

It seems almost as a test. If you can't handle her, then what can you handle in real life.

There is no excuse for being abusive ever. But you still gotta be able to take it.

Make it clear, that the abuse is bull and don't feed it. They will back off.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

karole said:


> It's funny how people can view things so differently - JLD sees her husband as more of a man because he tolerates her behavior - I would view my husband as less of a man if he tolerated that sort of behavior - from me or anyone.





ScarletBegonias said:


> It is definitely wild how different we all see things. I judge my husband's man status on how little bad behavior he tolerates rather than how much bad behavior he tolerates.
> 
> I wonder if what we saw as children has anything to do with that?


Many women, throughout many threads on this site find it very attractive when their man refuses to tolerate her emotional storms, is willing to call her out on her crap, put her in her place if will.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GTdad said:


> I'll take your management advice under consideration, thanks.


You're welcome.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hacker said:


> *I think a lot of women feed their sexual desire when they have a strong man.
> 
> It seems almost as a test. If you can't handle her, then what can you handle in real life.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with the bolded. There is definitely sexual passion in our marriage. And it's because I know I cannot topple him.

And 'if you can't handle her, then what can you handle in real life' is spot on, Hacker. I have made that point many times on TAM. I would not advise a woman to marry anyone other than a strong man. I just think it's too risky; life is too hard, and too long.

But you have a ways to go in your last paragraph . . .


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

hacker said:


> i think a lot of women feed their sexual desire when they think they have a strong man.



fify


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## Hacker (Jul 14, 2014)

jld said:


> But you have a ways to go in your last paragraph . . .


Its like you said, you cant topple him.

In my relationship, if you feed into the abuse it is exactly what she wants. So you don't give into it. I just say when you wanna talk like a mature adult and not a whiny 16 year old that isnt getting her way then let me know.

Check Mate


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hacker said:


> Its like you said, you cant topple him.
> 
> In my relationship, if you feed into the abuse it is exactly what she wants. So you don't give into it. I just say when you wanna talk like a mature adult and not a whiny 16 year old that isnt getting her way then let me know.
> 
> Check Mate


If you both are pleased with your relationship, there's really nothing for anyone else to say. 

I do think there is a step that can be taken beyond that, though, that can take the relationship to a deeper level.


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## Hacker (Jul 14, 2014)

We have a fantastic relationship that is very deep. But sometimes when the mouth moves without thinking about what you are saying, it is time for a reality check.

And then we can have a real conversation where I can actually listen to her.

It doesn't happen a lot, but it can.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You make me smile, Hacker. At least you are not scared of her. That has to be the worst.

All the best with your relationship!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> TAG, I don't think in terms of right/wrong, okay/not okay, good/poor. I think in terms of How do we solve the problem?
> 
> When we look at the root of behavior, and address that, the behavior will take care of itself.


Again, why is there only one problem?

My son and daughter are playing together. My son takes a toy from my daughter. My daughter takes a large block and hits him son on the back of the end, causing him to bleed.

To me, there are two problems. One is my son taking the toy. The other is my daughters handling of that problem. My son's actions do not excuse hers. I have to teach her to handle issues in a healthy manner, in part because her assessment that there is a problem may be wrong (for example, my son may have genuinely thought she was done with the toy and would have happily given it back if asked). In addition, attacking in an unhealthy way is less likely to resolve the issue.

In your world, however, the only problem is my son took the toy. That should be addressed, he should be punished and he should change his behavior. Once he does that, there will be no problem. My daughter has no responsibility for her actions.

I fundamentally disagree with that approach.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

jld said:


> And 'if you can't handle her, then what can you handle in real life' is spot on, Hacker. I have made that point many times on TAM. I would not advise a woman to marry anyone other than a strong man. I just think it's too risky; life is too hard, and too long.
> 
> But you have a ways to go in your last paragraph . . .


By your logic I should let myself be nailed through the scrotum to the floor. If I am strong I should be able to 'handle it'. 

Of course every rational person knows that your logic is flawed. Only a stupid person, or one too weak to walk away, would allow their scrotum to be nailed to the floor. Ditto with being married to somebody who is verbally abusive.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

If we promise to be really nice will you never post the scrotum nailing thing again?LOL

I don't even have one and I'm crossing my legs cringing.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

jld said:


> I would not advise a woman to marry anyone other than a strong man. I just think it's too risky; life is too hard, and too long.
> 
> But you have a ways to go in your last paragraph . . .


I would describe a "strong man" as one who assertively indicates what he will and will not accept in his marriage and from his partner. Hacker's last paragraph was 110% correct.

What you are describing is not "strength". It is indifference. There's no such thing as being indifferent to negative judgements, but warm to positive ones from the same source. If you respect the source, you feel the force of the judgement each way. If you don't respect the source, then nothing that comes from that source is relevant or can have any effect on you. And that ain't a marriage.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Since we have at this point completely thread-jacked the thread, I'll say that I looked up the David Deida book that JLD lovingly quotes in her sig. I'd never heard of it, but things are clearer to me now. 

It's a load of misogynistic claptrap, authored by somebody who is untroubled by acquaintance with any research or facts. The book is unsurprisingly beloved by the PUA (pick-up artist) community but I wouldn't have thought anyone else would have a use for it. In particular, I wouldn't have thought there were too many women who enjoyed being held in contempt by her man, and thought of as essentially a child in an adult's body, but one learns something new every day.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You sound angry.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> I would describe a "strong man" as one who assertively indicates what he will and will not accept in his marriage and from his partner. Hacker's last paragraph was 110% correct.
> 
> What you are describing is not "strength". It is indifference. There's no such thing as being indifferent to negative judgements, but warm to positive ones from the same source. If you respect the source, you feel the force of the judgement each way. If you don't respect the source, then nothing that comes from that source is relevant or can have any effect on you. And that ain't a marriage.


This is kinda what I've been thinking. He just doesn't give a sh1t what you think about him.

My wife was physically abused in her previous marriage, I realize the roles are reversed but bear with me. Your logic would say SHE was doing something to warrant getting the sh1t beat out of her, burned with cigarettes, and pushed down stairs. If only she'd found the root of her husbands anger and stopped doing whatever pissed him off? Am I right?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I Don't Know said:


> This is kinda what I've been thinking. He just doesn't give a sh1t what you think about him.
> 
> My wife was physically abused in her previous marriage, I realize the roles are reversed but bear with me. Your logic would say SHE was doing something to warrant getting the sh1t beat out of her, burned with cigarettes, and pushed down stairs. If only she'd found the root of her husbands anger and stopped doing whatever pissed him off? Am I right?


Not at all. She just needed to get away as quickly as she could.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> Since we have at this point completely thread-jacked the thread, I'll say that I looked up the David Deida book that JLD lovingly quotes in her sig. I'd never heard of it, but things are clearer to me now.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a load of misogynistic claptrap, authored by somebody who is untroubled by acquaintance with any research or facts. The book is unsurprisingly beloved by the PUA (pick-up artist) community but I wouldn't have thought anyone else would have a use for it. In particular, I wouldn't have thought there were too many women who enjoyed being held in contempt by her man, and thought of as essentially a child in an adult's body, but one learns something new every day.



Actually that's exactly her relationship. She sees herself as a 5 year old and him as her daddy.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

jld said:


> Not at all. She just needed to get away as quickly as she could.


Now reverse it. She was the one abusing him. Does your advice still hold?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I Don't Know said:


> Now reverse it. She was the one abusing him. Does your advice still hold?


If she were burning him with cigarettes, beating him up, pushing him down stairs?

Well, I guess you are right. If all those things are happening to him, and he cannot keep himself safe with her, then, yes, he needs to leave her.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> I Don't Know said:
> 
> 
> > Now reverse it. She was the one abusing him. Does your advice still hold?
> ...


Not just those things, JLD. Emotional and verbal abuse is just as valid to leave as physical abuse. And there are men and women alike who do all of the above. If a woman is abusing her husband in any way: physicsl, verbal, emotional, mental... then he absolutely should get out of the situation. Imo, it takes a stronger man to leave rather than put up with the abuse.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Again, why is there only one problem?
> 
> My son and daughter are playing together. My son takes a toy from my daughter. My daughter takes a large block and hits him son on the back of the end, causing him to bleed.
> 
> ...


How old are these kids?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> If she were burning him with cigarettes, beating him up, pushing him down stairs?
> 
> Well, I guess you are right. If all those things are happening to him, and he cannot keep himself safe with her, then, yes, he needs to leave her.


But a real man would weather through her storms and get to the root of what he was doing to cause her behavior right? A real man COULD keep himself safe with her because well, men are invulnerable to poor weak little women.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Not just those things, JLD. Emotional and verbal abuse is just as valid to leave as physical abuse. And there are men and women alike who do all of the above. If a woman is abusing her husband in any way: physicsl, verbal, emotional, mental... then he absolutely should get out of the situation. Imo, *it takes a stronger man to leave rather than put up with the abuse.*
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Codependent men stay and put up with it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> But a real man would weather through her storms and get to the root of what he was doing to cause her behavior right? A real man COULD keep himself safe with her because well, men are invulnerable to poor weak little women.


Well, if there were this kind of physical abuse going on, he would probably have to leave. 

I don't think some harsh words are the same as cigarette burns.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Well, if there were this kind of physical abuse going on, he would probably have to leave.
> 
> *I don't think some harsh words are the same as cigarette burns.*


That much is pretty obvious. I've said it before, but I'll say it again...both you and your husband are very fortunate to have found each other because your combined naivete would not serve either of you well in a relationship with very many other people. 

Believe it or not, there are a lot of women out there who are just as abusive, cruel, disconnected, disinterested, disrespectful as human beings, in their core, as there are men, and it has nothing to do with who they are around...that is just who they are. Women are not poor, innocent, weak, fragile little things. They are living, thinking, self aware beings just like men, and should be held to the same standard of decorum.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

By whom, Sam? You want them to do it on their own? Is that realistic?

Aren't you one of the ones who says you teach people how to treat you? Could you at least do that?

It is better than abandonment. I would guess.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> By whom, Sam? You want them to do it on their own? Is that realistic?
> 
> Aren't you one of the ones who says you teach people how to treat you? Could you at least do that?
> 
> It is better than abandonment. I would guess.


Wouldn't that same logic be easily applied to women who are being abused, too? Contrary to what you may believe, Sam is correct here. There are women who do treat their husbands that badly If you're going to say that a man shouldn't abandon his wife because she abuses him, then that should be applied to the opposite, too. If a woman is advised to leave her abusive spouse, then the same should apply to a man if his wife is abusing him. And, verbal and emotional abuse IS abuse. Words often slice through and break a person down more than hitting, kicking, burning, etc. And that's both men and women, JLD.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

I don't know why I bother, but I will again:



jld said:


> By whom, Sam? You want them to do it on their own? Is that realistic?
> 
> Aren't you one of the ones who says you teach people how to treat you? Could you at least do that?
> 
> It is better than abandonment. I would guess.


The only one who has advocated abandonment at the first sign of poor behavior other is you setting up a straw man argument. 

A person should definitely work to teach their spouse how to treat them. But if they don't change, there comes a point were leaving is the only option. You can't make another person change. That is on them. If they refuse to change, that is a statement of their issues, not the person leaving.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

And really, leaving might be best for both. I don't know why I have such an aversion to it.

Maricha, I think men can handle more from women than women can handle from men. YMMV.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> And really, leaving might be best for both. I don't know why I have such an aversion to it.
> 
> Maricha, I think men can handle more from women than women can handle from men. YMMV.


You'd be surprised. Even men can only take the "you're worthless" and "I don't know why I ever married you" arguments just so long. And even the ones who, as you seem to believe, "can handle more from women" do so BECAUSE of that very sentiment. BECAUSE they will be viewed as weak by people such as yourself. They are no different. They bleed. They feel. And they get abused, too. And I have to wonder if you would give the same advice to your sons as to daughters, if both were in relationships that were abusive in any way. I can honestly say that I would give my kids the same advice: don't put up with ANY abuse, even if that means separating from your spouse.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> You'd be surprised. Even men can only take the "you're worthless" and "I don't know why I ever married you" arguments just so long. And even the ones who, as you seem to believe, "can handle more from women" do so BECAUSE of that very sentiment. BECAUSE they will be viewed as weak by people such as yourself. They are no different. They bleed. They feel. And they get abused, too. And I have to wonder if you would give the same advice to your sons as to daughters, if both were in relationships that were abusive in any way. I can honestly say that I would give my kids the same advice: don't put up with ANY abuse, even if that means separating from your spouse.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Our older kids are very familiar with active listening. They use it with the younger ones, and with other people, too.

Physical abuse is certainly a dealbreaker for a woman. I don't know about for a man. 

I think there is abuse, and then there is abuse. Certainly different people can handle different things.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> Maricha75 said:
> 
> 
> > You'd be surprised. Even men can only take the "you're worthless" and "I don't know why I ever married you" arguments just so long. And even the ones who, as you seem to believe, "can handle more from women" do so BECAUSE of that very sentiment. BECAUSE they will be viewed as weak by people such as yourself. They are no different. They bleed. They feel. And they get abused, too. And I have to wonder if you would give the same advice to your sons as to daughters, if both were in relationships that were abusive in any way. I can honestly say that I would give my kids the same advice: don't put up with ANY abuse, even if that means separating from your spouse.
> ...


IOW, you would advise both sons and daughters to stick it out? Or would tell sons to stick it out but not daughters? JLD, "there is abuse, and then there is abuse" is a cop out. It's what people say when they don't believe someone is being abused. People say that whether physical or verbal or emotional. Even with different forms of physical abuse, people try that nonsense you just tossed out there, insinuating that because THEY (or you, in this case) don't think something is abuse, then it isn't.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Hacker (Jul 14, 2014)

If a women says "you're worthless" and "I don't know why I ever married you"

All she is doing is trying to do is hurt you. She doesn't really mean it or should would have hit the road already.

You just need to ignore that crap, and take control of the conversation. She is trying to break you and control the situation. You will look weak to her if you allow this.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hacker said:


> If a women says "you're worthless" and "I don't know why I ever married you"
> 
> All she is doing is trying to do is hurt you. *She doesn't really mean it or should would have hit the road already.*
> 
> You just need to ignore that crap, and take control of the conversation. She is trying to break you and control the situation. You will look weak to her if you allow this.


I like the spirit of what you are saying, Hacker. I can tell you that whenever I said those things to my husband, I was not trying to control the situation. I was trying to get his attention. I very desperately wanted his _ attention._

I guess it could be seen as trying to control him, though. I wanted him to do what I wanted. I should've just expressed what I wanted and then let him make his own decision. I should have been able to hear No gracefully. 

Of course, if you hear No too many times, there can be consequences for that, too.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> JLD, "there is abuse, and then there is abuse" is a cop out. It's what people say when they don't believe someone is being abused.


Or to justify their own behavior.


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## Hacker (Jul 14, 2014)

I think its, allowing yourself to be abused vs not allowing it.

People will push buttons to see what they can get away with. Dont let em.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hacker said:


> I think its, allowing yourself to be abused vs not allowing it.
> 
> People will push buttons to see what they can get away with. Dont let em.


Don't let them get to you.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Hacker said:


> If a women says "you're worthless" and "I don't know why I ever married you"
> 
> *All she is doing is trying to do is hurt you*. She doesn't really mean it or should would have hit the road already.
> 
> You just need to ignore that crap, and take control of the conversation. She is trying to break you and control the situation. You will look weak to her if you allow this.


Pretty messed up when a supposed loving partner is intentionally trying to hurt the other...doesn't sound like a healthy individual or relationship to me.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> I like the spirit of what you are saying, Hacker. I can tell you that whenever I said those things to my husband, I was not trying to control the situation. I was trying to get his attention. I very desperately wanted his _ attention._
> 
> I guess it could be seen as trying to control him, though. I wanted him to do what I wanted. I should've just expressed what I wanted and then let him make his own decision. I should have been able to hear No gracefully.
> 
> Of course, if you hear No too many times, there can be consequences for that, too.


Sounds like an out of control little brat...

When I say things, when my wife and I are having serious conversations, I am very careful to mean what I am saying, and don't say things I don't mean.

If one tends to say things they don't mean, even in the middle of a temper tantrum, it tends to devalue what they say, and makes it even more difficult to convey things when you really do mean something..."Oh, she's just running her mouth again...", crying wolf when there is no wolf...why on earth would anyone take you seriously?


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## Hacker (Jul 14, 2014)

I would say it is more irrational, and not so much unhealthy. Some people deal with situations differently, and some people act out irrationally trying to gain control of a situation.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hacker said:


> If a women says "you're worthless" and "I don't know why I ever married you"
> 
> *All she is doing is trying to do is hurt you. She doesn't really mean it or should would have hit the road already.*
> 
> You just need to ignore that crap, and take control of the conversation. She is trying to break you and control the situation. You will look weak to her if you allow this.


Yes, she would be trying to hurt you. But she doesn't really mean it? Really? Wrong. On some level, she really DOES mean it. If she didn't mean it in ANY way, the words wouldn't come out of her mouth. And, even if they were "only" words to get your attention, she still meant them... she meant for them to sting, to get some sort of reaction. And, in many cases, she DOES mean exactly as she said. You suggest that she would leave if she truly felt that way? I submit that she may feel "stuck" with no choice... kind of like some men feel in sexless/loveless marriages.


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## Hacker (Jul 14, 2014)

that's a bunch of bologna. people speak without thinking sometimes, its called being human.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

jld said:


> ...
> 
> I guess if a group of women were attacking a man, I could see defending him. But I don't think secure men need it. ....


_I guess if a group of MEN were attacking a WOMAN, I could see defending her. But I don't think secure WOMEN need it._

I just wanted to see that flipped around.

Yup...still fawked up.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hacker said:


> that's a bunch of bologna. people speak without thinking sometimes, its called being human.


It's just as much nonsense to believe that people don't say things they mean. That's also being human.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Hacker said:


> that's a bunch of bologna. people speak without thinking sometimes, its called being human.


I generally don't, especially if it is something that I fell is very serious. I want people to know that when I say something, there is no wondering, no questioning, no guessing.

I do have an extraordinary amount of self control, thinking before I speak...it's a great skill to have, one I honed while being married for 17 years to a woman who is NPD


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

Hacker said:


> I think its, allowing yourself to be abused vs not allowing it.
> 
> People will push buttons to see what they can get away with. Dont let em.


If the behavior persists then you are continuing to let them! You are allowing it! If you put a hard boundary there that says and shows you will not accept that behavior then the person is forced to make a choice ....to learn a better more acceptable way of relating and communicating with you or not. It's saying i made my choice/this is unacceptable to me... Now you make yours.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

jld said:


> Maricha, I think men can handle more from women than women can handle from men. YMMV.


This is true IF and ONLY IF the man cares less about what the woman thinks than the woman cares what the man thinks.

I could handle a great deal of abuse from a woman I didn't care about at all and had no respect for. Stop complaining and make me a sandwich, woman!



> sam yeager: If one tends to say things they don't mean, even in the middle of a temper tantrum, it tends to devalue what they say, and makes it even more difficult to convey things when you really do mean something..."Oh, she's just running her mouth again...", crying wolf when there is no wolf...why on earth would anyone take you seriously?


One of the chapters of the David Deida book that JLD so lovingly quotes is "Women's complaints are without content". (I wish I was making this up). Basically, your little missy is just venting her incoherent feminine energy at you to test your masculinity... the actual content of her message is irrelevant. It's not like she has any logical thoughts in that pretty little head of hers.

Again, I wish I was creative enough to make this stuff up, but I'm not (there's probably a lot of money to be made in this racket). The book is around online if you look for it, I skimmed a pdf. There was a lot of :rofl: to be had.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I would really like to hear from men who agree with the concepts being presented in that book. it would be interesting to see what they have to say about it and why they agree with it. 

I wonder also if it's a high number of men who go along with that or if it's just a small sampling.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

You know, just like anyone else in a troubled marriage I could trot out a list of things that piss me off about my wife.

But praise is in order, too. Thank God I have a wife who, when she complains about something, does it rationally and in a way that makes sense without making it (too) personal.


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## Hacker (Jul 14, 2014)

And in that case it is complete with content.


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## ronita (Jul 18, 2014)

I think you both should try having sex slowly slowly.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

stop you guys, you're making my brain hurt


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> stop you guys, you're making my brain hurt


Which part?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

hacker said:


> women's complaints are without content.


YES ALL WOMENZ SUCK.

WOMENZ ARE EVIL AND BAD.

You are new to TAM but goodness, you do sound so much like another poster.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Jb don't fall for his dark tricycle! Your limbic system won't be able to handle it.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

LIMBO!

...oh wait...you said limbic...


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Dark tricycle? ROFL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Dark tricycle? ROFL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


lol I can't take credit for the dark tricycle.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> lol I can't take credit for the dark tricycle.


That's it,I need to change my username...dark tricycle sounds so much sexier 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beyond (Jul 13, 2014)

Someone mentioned me inviting him here, I don't think I can do that. I don't know how he will take it and don't want anything to add to the list of unforgettables

We finally had a talk on how to move forward. He has forgiven me long time ago just hard for him to forget. 
1. I have to change my attitude and don't act irritated if something happened and losses his hardon, just give him oral sex until he is bck
2. More oral sex... Lol

We have had sex three times  since our conversation. The most in one week 

I also visited the obgyn and she said I just need to relax more it shld get much better over time

I am happy the conversation went well and am committed that we stay on the right path
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

Beyond said:


> Someone mentioned me inviting him here, I don't think I can do that. I don't know how he will take it and don't want anything to add to the list of unforgettables
> 
> We finally had a talk on how to move forward. He has forgiven me long time ago just hard for him to forget.
> 1. I have to change my attitude and don't act irritated if something happened and losses his hardon, just give him oral sex until he is bck
> ...


I'm so glad you came back. This thread has become out of control. You two can work this out. You seem to both take responsibility and accountability for your parts in the problem but after three years of dealing with this and no real progress you need professional help. No shame in that. Go get it . You might just wind up with something wonderful! 

Best ,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Beyond said:


> Someone mentioned me inviting him here, I don't think I can do that. I don't know how he will take it and don't want anything to add to the list of unforgettables
> 
> We finally had a talk on how to move forward. He has forgiven me long time ago just hard for him to forget.
> 1. I have to change my attitude and don't act irritated if something happened and losses his hardon, just give him oral sex until he is bck
> ...


Good news. Oral sex is the solution to most of life's problems.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

johnnycomelately said:


> Good news. Oral sex is the solution to most of life's problems.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> YES ALL WOMENZ SUCK.
> 
> WOMENZ ARE EVIL AND BAD.
> 
> You are new to TAM but goodness, you do sound so much like another poster.


They do NOT suck or went wouldn't have 5 threads about no BJs going on..........

:rofl: sorry couldn't resist


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)




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