# emotional affair crisis.....



## grux22

This is a post i made in considering separation..... was told to re-post over here for more input.

To start off we have been married 5 years together for 8 years, we have two kids 3&4 and have been happily married. We never fight and put all of our effort into raising our kids... unfortunately we have kind of disconnected somewhat during all of this. We both work opposite shifts so one of us is always home to take care of kids and we have the weekends off to enjoy the family. Well as of 4 months ago my Wife met her Soulmate with out doing anything. She told me from day one that she has a special connection with him as if it were her twin soul.... i Was worried from day one but she assured me that they were just friends and that what we had would never be over come by them. I asked her not to see him and she agreed but came to agree that they were ok to text and email each other about the club we were in where they met. I frequently checked in with her on him and she told me the truth in everything going on... this guy also married.. his wife dint find it too fond of my wife and him talking PERIOD.. SO they continued to talk and talk in secret behind both of our backs... then finally I caught the two of them out at a bar one night... i was Devastated. its is a full on EMOTIONAL AFFAIR .. She had indeed lied to me many times about what was going on but assured me everything was ok. finally that night she admitted to me that she was in love with him and actually has thoughts of leaving me for him... I Did not handle this so well and pushed and pushed with questions and begging to figure out what is going on. This indeed pushed her away and she did admit how embarrassed she is and guilty for lying. she then tries to turn the tables on me with the little stuff i have done in our relationship that has broken her trust and respect,

I have crossed the line in the bedroom recently and she completely repelled by me with what i have done in the bed room. she then proceeds to tell me that she was sexually abused as a kid and that the guy who did it told her the same thing over and over and over. " Come on you know you like it" . I had no clue about this and took it as her being shy and embarrassed... but now i feel like a piece of **** cause she did tell me no but i didn't listen... she is really confused alone rite now cause of her affair but she is 0 interested in any sex with me ever again....

.... so now we are and worlds ends from each other. She told me out rite that this guy is indeed her soulmate and believes they are meant to be with each other. She knows the path of destruction that will happen if she does go this route... the kids are at risk. She says even if she doesn't end up With this guy whom in her eye is "perfect" she now sees that our marriage has become planned and predictable and that we have become not as connected as them... her heart inst with me right now and she thinks that we have grown different. She does tell me she loves me and she can live 30 years happy with me however she does not think that is the best thing for HER.She wants to do whats best for her. She knows that if she stays with me that she will still have feelings for this guy no matter what and that would not make her the happiest she can be.

We have agreed to go to Marriage counseling and have gone once together then one single session for me and She goes this Friday.
She thinks its useless cause she wants whats best for her. I keep over perusing her and keep asking what she wants and what i don't give her etc. and she can not answer any of these. She has Asked for space and not to bother her and even considered moving into her moms house. there was a point where she gave her rings back to me to when i convinced her that we need counseling.

So where we stand now - She Doesn't want to talk to me about whats going on, she needs space however we live together.. She has been my shoulder to lean on for 8 years and its hard to go from many texts and "love you" to nothing no hugs no kisses no ANYTHING. I feel ignored and she is not interested in me PERIOD.
I Don't know what to do at this point... should i be hoping and praying that marriage counseling will help? How can i not panic about her not being there? She refuses not to talk to this guy and does it in front of me even against our counselor advice . IS there anything i can do in the next few weeks to kind of regain her trust in therapy and trust in me... Has any one else had anything like this happen.... I know I'm not her SOULMATE but I'm still the love of her life as she put it... she says she cant have both.. I cant beg i can press i cant do much..Will we be able to over come trust issues?.. HELP please

Thanks for reading and you input-


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## Redactus

It seems like she has already made her mind up. The best thing for you to do is protect your kids and protect your assets. Consult an attorney immediately. You cannot make somebody love you - especially if she has chosen another.


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## GusPolinski

Good Lord.

Someone get this guy 344 pages of MMSLP and 192 pages of NMMNG stat!!!


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## G.J.

If only they could refloat the Titanic


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## 6301

I could be wrong but if I was a betting man, I'd say she handed you a big line of bull $h!t about being abused and is using it against you to get her way. Remember she lied to you and said that everything was fine and then you catch her with the OM at a bar. 

If I were you, I would let her know that she is more than welcome to go be with Mister Soulmate and let her know that she isn't welcome in the house any longer. You and the kids will be fine without her. 

Find yourself a lawyer, get your finances squared away so she can't take you to the cleaners and start playing hard ball with her because she's doing a damn fine job doing it to you.


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## Lostme

I'm a woman and I can tell you right now she is done. The only reason she is telling you that she might want to work it out is because of the other man is not sure what he wants to do.

Of course she will tell you she is not attracted to him, that is to throw you off after all he is her soul mate. Take the advice of others and see a lawyer, you might not want a divorce but the choice is not yours alone.


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## straightshooter

My gues is there will be a bunch of folks who follow me, but that they all will tell you pretty much the same thing.

You are unfortunately, doing everything wrong at this point because you are still in the denial stage of the process. She is going to have her affair with this guy and if it does not work out all of a sudden she will be sorry.

What you need to be doing is seeing an attorney. She is performing right out of the "cheaters handbook", and I'd bet my 401K that this is not an emotional affair, but has been a physical affair for some time.

No need to give you any specifics on what to do until you get out of what we sometimes call the "fog". She is not in a fog, she knows what she is doing.,

When you get to the ANGRY stage and decide not to get **** on, there is a lot you can do. Begging and pleading with her will not be on the recommended list./


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## ThePheonix

Lostme said:


> I'm a woman and I can tell you right now she is done.


You need to tell him to that her romantic interest in him will never come back. Hence he will be living on an iceberg the rest of his life.


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## Lostme

ThePheonix said:


> You need to tell him to that her romantic interest in him will never come back. Hence he will be living on an iceberg the rest of his life.


Yes that is true as well, she will never feel the same way again.

We all know how hard this is for you been through it, but as long as you plead to her she will pull further away. She is gone, all she is doing right now is bidding her time until the OM has decided if he is going to leave his wife. 

You need to start doing the 180 with her, start taking care of yourself.


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## alte Dame

1. Start the 180 immediately:

The Healing Heart: The 180

2. Get in touch with his wife immediately and make sure she knows what is happening.

3. Understand that your WW is making excuses and rewriting your marital history. She is probably already in a physical affair with him and having sex with you is cheating on him, so she finds a reason to keep you at bay, aka 'you do things sexually that repulse me.'

4. Man up! Get a free legal consult and let her know that you are planning your new life.

Remember that this whole thing could change in a big way if the POSOM gets rid of her, so make sure that his BW knows what is going on. This is extremely important.


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## aine

She is feeding you loads of BS and passing the blame to you.

You need to pull up your big boy breeches and 

1. get a lawyer and see what your options are
2. blow up her world, tell all and sundry about her whoring around behind your back, get the OM's wife to do the same thing, better still tell the OM's wife to come on TAM for advice, you both need to be following the same thing
3. Get yourself some IC to help you through this and surround yourself with good friends and family
4. Do all to protect your kids as far as possible
5. Do not take blame for her childhood sexual abuse, in fact I would suggest she may be playing you on this one to try and pass the buck back to you
6. Assume the worst, and do not believe a word she tells you. Do the 180 and start acting as if you are taking her at her word and you are moving on. Tell her to move out if she wants but she is not taking the kids. No sex, not nothing, only talk about administration and the kids.
It is likely when the OM's wife is doing the same thing, the OM may not be so ready to lose his marriage and she will come running back, do not take her back. Tell her she needs IC to sort out her s*** and you both need MC with no guarantee on your part of reconciliation as she has lost all trust, in fact after all that you may not want her back.


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## aine

ThePheonix said:


> You need to tell him to that her romantic interest in him will never come back. Hence he will be living on an iceberg the rest of his life.


She is deep in the fog but sometimes the fog lifts when the cold hard reality of day sets in, that is what she needs a good reality check


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## Chaparral

In case you are not getting it, you are doing the exact opposite of what you should be doing.

Most important immediate thing is to find out what his wife is doing about this.

Second, what does her mother think about her leaving her home and kids to live with her so she can fu'ck a married man?


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## Chaparral

Under no circumstance do you let her take the kids. Do not leave yourself. She wants to contact him in front of you? Go to his house and talk to his wife in front of him.

It doesnt hurt for him to think youre crazy.

Always car a voice activated recorder on you.


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## OldWolf57

Another thing, stop the MC, it's just a waste of money as long as she feels this way.

As for the guilt you feel, think back, she was throwing everything at you to see what would stick.
Once she saw the shame and guilt in your eyes, she knew she hit a target.

If you continue this path, you will be plan b for the rest of your marriage. 
She will get dumped by this guy to save his marriage, bet on it.
So you need to start living and, acting like this marriage is over in front of her.
In fact tell her you want her out, because you have thought about it, and she now disgust you, becoming the low down cheating skank she has become and you want NOTHING to do with her as a woman.

You are playing the pick me game, and it just don't work!!!
Nothing makes a man more unattractive than weakness.
That's the old ILYBINILWY she's telling you.
So if you would read some thread here, the guys with the most success are the ones that go strong and hard.
They expose, and start living the 180.
They start to act like their marriage is over, and the cheater is the worst thing they have ever associated with'
EXPOSE HIM to his wife, and her to your family and friends.

Yes you want your marriage, but until she get's a wakeup, you are fighting a losing battle.

It's time for you to cut her off from your money, cancel joint CC, open new accounts only you have access to, and start getting yourself into not being around mooning over her.

In other words " fake it til you make it ."


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## OldWolf57

You don't know it yet, but you are so lucky so many VET's are on to jump on this for you early.
Notice they all are basically telling you the same thing.

Do a quick read of Lonely Husband 42301 thread.
Noticed how for a year he was all out trying to please his wife, and was getting nowhere, but as soon as he got real and went hard, he won and is still winning.


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## TaDor

Its amazing how cheaters (seems to be more women, than men) say & do the exact same thing. But yeah, in a matter of a few months, went from love to hate. Mine re-wrote history of "I started falling out of love with you two years ago"?! WTF?!

All long term relationships requires work and respect from both.

Lonely Husband 42301 thread is good.

My relationship went to crap a few week later, then I found myself here. I filled for custody (not so much because of people here), for safety reasons. It started opening her eyes out of the affair fog. She is doing a lot to make up for the destruction she has done. A lot of collateral damage. Now her and the OM no longer work at the same place, our house-hold is still being patched up, and my trust is far from where it used to be 10 weeks ago.

I think this is a great article - perhaps share it with your WW: http://www.yourtango.com/2013193488/have-affair-you-leave-your-spouse-consider
Its not a 180 thing to do, but if she's got any logic enough to read it.

When I had such articles and such to talk to my WW when the sht hit the fan, it was impossible. Once the fog was lifting and she read more and more, she sees the errors of her ways.
Right now, you do need to look out for yourself and then the children. Because *SHE* sure as hell is not.


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## TaDor

OldWolf57 said:


> That's the old ILYBINILWY she's telling you.
> So if you would read some thread here, the guys with the most success are the ones that go strong and hard.
> They expose, and start living the 180.
> They start to act like their marriage is over, and the cheater is the worst thing they have ever associated with'
> EXPOSE HIM to his wife, and her to your family and friends.
> 
> Yes you want your marriage, but until she get's a wakeup, you are fighting a losing battle.
> In other words " fake it til you make it ."


I did not know about the 180 until recently. My first post here was within 24hrs of her "choosing" the OM and leaving.

I got that damn ILYBINILWY line. Its like "What the hell does that mean?!" how about this, "IF you LOVE ME, YOU don't STAB me in the back!" 

I wasn't faking when I went to war and filed my papers in court and had her served.

She was going to lose, and she was losing everything. Family, friends, our son, her home, her life. When she got rid of her lawyer, we made our agreement, went to court and filed. I still have almost everything as if we went to trial. Except that I don't demand child support from her. She agreed to this.

Sorry OP, do your best to take care of yourself. You can't make your wife do anything she doesn't want to do.


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## grux22

So the kids got involved in this and my daughter knew that mommy had a boy friend.... This stopped all the Soulmate stuff rite in its tracks... She has refocused leaving me to working on what we have done to each other in MC and really wants to overcome it. The last straw was the kids Involvement... Not proud that my kids know but it has been an eye opener


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## Chaparral

Most importantly, who else knows.

This is all bullsh'it if they still work together.

There can be no reconcilliation when the affair partners are still around each other.


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## grux22

Her parents know and my parents know what's going on.. They don't work together and have only met in person 4 times... We all me through a internet biased adventure club we are in.. She is falling for him via Instagram and text


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## Chaparral

How far away does he live?

She is no longer in contact with him?


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## grux22

About an hour away and they just text about club stuff and what's going on with our situation


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## justastatistic

grux22 said:


> About an hour away and they just text about club stuff and what's going on with our situation


It's just my opinion, but you have no chance so long as they remain in contact in any form.


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## Blossom Leigh

@grux22

What parts of your wife's behavior do you view as destructive?


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## badmemory

No matter what your wife is telling you right now, the worst thing you can do is to rug sweep her affair. Cheaters must receive and accept consequences. You are responsible for delivering them and she is responsible for accepting them.

To include:

Immediate end of contact and a no contact letter sent to POSOM, from her, and after you review.

Exposure to her family, your family, and POSOM's wife.

Complete transparency with her communication devices and accountability for her time away from you.

Complete honesty from her about the details of the affair.

Her willingness to demonstrate remorse and to do the heavy lifting to help you heal. 

If she does accept them and demonstrates genuine remorse, then she may earn your "consideration" for R. Nothing more until you have the time to judge her consistency. 

If she doesn't accept every one of them; your trajectory should be straight to divorce until she does or the divorce is final.

That's the formula OP. Time to stop the begging and pleading. The more you chase her, the weaker you look, and the less respect/attraction she will have for you. You must be willing to end your marriage if she doesn't turn around *completely*.


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## grux22

I agree with all of that... I'm starting the 180 today.
We have to settle our differences and both require us coming clean. This will happen I'm sure... We are working on our communication... She has always been in a "shell" and is finally starting to open up on her own terms... I can't push 

The best negotiating position you can have in life weather a business or any other negotiation is the ability to walk away and never look back


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## 5Creed

This is not an emotional affair. It has gone physical. She has met her "soulmate" and is willing to make herself happy at the expense of her husband and children. This means that she has tried him out and likes what she found as far as the feelings go. She might deny it; but she is a liar. Do not believe her if she tells you it hasn't gone physical yet. It has. Move forward having this knowledge. She is a fool as most cheaters are to be so selfish and do this to her family.


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## grux22

It has not gone physical and I know this cause the times they have met they have been together on club outings.. I trust her and know her enough to believe that it hasn't.

In her eyes he is a friend who is her soulmate they connect better than myself and her at this point. 

She believes he is in her life to help better her life. And maybe even our marriage


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## tech-novelist

grux22 said:


> It has not gone physical and I know this cause the times they have met they have been together on club outings.. I trust her and know her enough to believe that it hasn't.
> 
> In her eyes he is a friend who is her soulmate they connect better than myself and her at this point.
> 
> She believes he is in her life to help better her life. And maybe even our marriage


Have you ever seen the movie "The Matrix"? If not, you should.

Now back to direct talk.

You can't trust her as far as you can throw her.
You don't know her.
He is not a friend.
He isn't in her life to help your marriage. He is in her life to screw her into next week.
He is not her soulmate either, but you won't be able to convince her of that.

Unless you serve her with divorce papers. Then *maybe *she will decide to pick you.

At this point I would not allow that anyway; I'd throw her out. But that's up to you.

The rest of this isn't up to you. You have only one possibility if you want to stay married to her and actually have a marriage that means anything other than you being her babysitter while she screws her "soulmate".

And that possibility, as everyone here has been telling you, is divorce papers.

Can you hear us now?


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## Chaparral

From what you say there is every oppurtunity for them to hook up. How do you know they haven't been together more than four times?

If you are depending on a cheater to tell the truth you are in real trouble? Have you checked the phone bill?

You need to get at least two VARs, one for the car and one for home to see what she is rally saying.

T

THERE CAN BE NO CONTACT


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## grux22

How I see it she is embarrassed with what she did.. And she feels guilty.. She is poking and prodding and trying to get me pissed to do sucha thing... She wont even say the D word. 

If I push now before she even hears what the mc says to us together there is no chance for me


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## Relationship Teacher

MC won't help. I went to MC all those years ago when I faced a very similar thing. Your partner is in love drugs and can't think clearly, even if she wanted to.

You have to LET her go. By being an emotionally strong individual, you will give yourself the best chance at surviving this with OR without her.

Let her be, but don't give her a nasty attitude. You both deserve to be happy.

That said..... If you are blamed for ANYTHING, don't take it personal. It is just her justifying and vindicating herself. The worst thing you can do is let yourself get upset, agree, or feel the need to defend yourself. You can't reason with someone on drugs. Listen and keep your mind on the facts. If you reply, do so with brief mention of the truth. If she doesn't see it, then let it be.


That said... It wasn't the affairs that ended my relationship with my ex, it was the lack of a proper connection.

You can rebuild a connection, if it once existed. But, you can NOT force this. Let her get what she asks for, and she may quickly realize how silly it all was.

Stay Strong!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

When it goes this far you have less than a fifty chance is saving tha marriage.

Her cutting you off is a sure sign they have taken this physical.


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## grux22

She told me she needs space to be "myself" and that I only see us as YS

Asked me to give her some freedom to be herself with out me... 
And this is true I want to do everything with her.. She does need the freedom to go out and be herself


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## convert

The "space" most waywards talks about is usually for trying the affair partner on (physically(if it already hasn't happened)) to see if they are better then their spouse


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## badmemory

grux22 said:


> It has not gone physical and I know this cause the times they have met they have been together on club outings.. *I trust her and know her enough to believe that it hasn't.*


Grux,

Did you also trust her enough to not betray your marriage? Did you trust her not to deceive you about the OM in the process? Can you rule out that they could not meet elsewhere?

You should not assume it hasn't gone physical based on your wife's story. That is incredibly naive.


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## grux22

No her telling me that she has feelings for this guy is what triggers her break and she has agreed to that.

She knows she needs help I, I do believe that she does see how real this situation is now. And that he could just be a pipe dream.

She he getting help on her own along with MC.
She never saw this coming and can't believe WE of all people are in this situation


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## tech-novelist

grux22 said:


> No her telling me that she has feelings for this guy is what triggers her break and she has agreed to that.
> 
> She knows she needs help I, I do believe that she does see how real this situation is now. And that he could just be a pipe dream.
> 
> She he getting help on her own along with MC.
> She never saw this coming and can't believe WE of all people are in this situation


*You *are the one who *still *doesn't see what is happening.


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## naiveonedave

grux - she wants space because it causes her pain to realize that she is cheating on you. She wants the space to make it easier to cheat and less stress with trying to hide things. This tells me it is 100% PA or will be PA in days.


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## grux22

I see what's going on and I want her and I want to turn this thing around

I assure u she has not gotten physical with him


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## badmemory

grux22 said:


> She told me she needs space to be "myself" and that I only see us as YS
> 
> Asked me to give her some freedom to be herself with out me...
> And this is true I want to do everything with her.. She does need the freedom to go out and be herself


Convert and naiveonedave are right.

Did she ever ask you for this "space" before her A?

This is right out of the cheater's handbook. She's trying to escape the consequence of transparency and accountability for her time - that she has earned due to her behavior.

Your heading in the right direction OP, but you have a lot to learn about the pattern of cheaters. The odds are very long that your wife is that rare exception.


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## grux22

See I felt she needed space so I gave her all the freedom in the world before this... That's how she met his guy I. Our club... I encouraged her to go out and have fun and I'd take care of kids that weekend... And then she fell for him...

This guy wants her to not do anything rash and to slow down and think... He is going to mc and working on his issues... And that is this is the 3rd time that he has been willing to leave HIS wife for another woman... And he knows it's wrong..
They both know not to act on these feeling but both know they are there


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## badmemory

grux22 said:


> I see what's going on and* I want her and I want to turn this thing around*


I know that you want this. That's a given.

But you have to understand that your wife has to want it more. You are not responsible for turning this around. She is.


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## Relationship Teacher

grux22 said:


> See I felt she needed space so I gave her all the freedom in the world before this... That's how she met his guy I. Our club... I encouraged her to go out and have fun and I'd take care of kids that weekend... And then she fell for him...
> 
> This guy wants her to not do anything rash and to slow down and think... He is going to mc and working on his issues... And that is this is the 3rd time that he has been willing to leave HIS wife for another woman... And he knows it's wrong..
> They both know not to act on these feeling but both know they are there


Your wife is too blind to see that HE will do the same thing to her...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha

The POSOM is nothing but a bull$h!tt!ng player! And you would be crazy to view him as anything else. Do not believe that he wants to take it slowly and examine his reasons for doing this etc. Your wife is being played by a professional. This is the first thing you need to accept.

Without attaching to much of spiritualism or "meaning of life" reasoning to this, the second thing you need to accept is that your wife wants to try out some strange but does not want to accept the consequences that go with it. She needs to be woken up and needs to face reality which is: if she wants to fvck somebody new, she needs to not attach some soulmate reasoning to it and needs to understand and accept all the consequences.

And finally, you! You need to be ready to deliver the consequences and not just rely on your kids to do this.

Stop making this too special and justified - she wants to try this new guy and he is a player, so he got through where others would find it more difficult. You need to see clearly and take the right steps - you are being given good advice here. Deal with this situation.


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## naiveonedave

grux22 said:


> I see what's going on and I want her and I want to turn this thing around
> 
> I assure u she has not gotten physical with him


I don't want to be argumentative, but I would bet a lot of $ that you are wrong. When I was younger, my gf and I at the time could get physical in minutes virtually anywhere. If they were in the same location for hours at a time, they were physical, maybe not piv, but were physical.


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## badmemory

grux22 said:


> See I felt she needed space so I gave her all the freedom in the world before this... That's how she met his guy I. Our club...


Marital boundaries for many couples are liberal. That's fine. Maybe not particularly wise (as you found out), but fine if they both agree.

But once a spouse cheats things change. Marital boundaries for the cheating partner have to be redefined. Your wife should no longer have the luxury of GNO's, opposite sex friends, and unaccounted for time. If she balks and you cave; you're making a huge mistake.


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## grux22

See this is why it gets so messed up... She thinks so high of this guy cause he "respects" her enough to never force anything on his behalf..
My wife has told me she needs help and doesn't know where to start of what to do... That's why mc started 

She has to take action


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## brooklynAnn

Look buddy, you need to wake up. Forget your wife and what she needs. You might think you will beg, plea, explain and debate why she should stay married to you and she would turn around and choose you. 

Look at every case of cheating on TAM, it does not happen that way. It takes along time for cheating spouses to see what they did wrong, if they ever do at all. 

You need to figure out what you want. You want to stay married? To what a cheating, lying woman. Who has no respect for you and certainly does not love you. Because if she did, you would not be here.

Listen to yourself. Your wife found her soulmate. WTF are you?
You are just the man she is married to and that means nothing to her.

If someone said to you, "I have found the love of my life. He gets me like no-one else. We are soulmates, join together, forever.". What do you say to that person? Good luck and get the F***out. Here is your bag. 

You are making yourself weak and desperate in her eyes. Forget all the stuff you trusted her with and hope she would never do. It's all water under the bridge. Now your new reality is your WIFE IS A CHEAT LYING WHATEVER. 

What you need to do, is get up off the floor. Brush yourself off and start looking out for you. You want your marriage back? Start working on you. Act like a strong man. No begging/pleading. 

Pack her bag. visit a divorce lawyer and get the process started. Implement the 180. Get it from @EleGirl profile. 

That is how you start getting your marriage back. Until you open her eyes to what she has to lose, you are fighting a losing game. Especially with the OM looking to get a divorce from his marriage. You can discuss all the things you trusted her with from now until the cows come home and it's going to get you nowhere. Get a grip and start watching out for you. When she recommits to the marriage, you can then start therapy and figure where things when wrong. 

Now get going. Start the 180.


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## badmemory

grux22 said:


> See this is why it gets so messed up... She thinks so high of this guy cause he "respects" her enough to never force anything on his behalf..


What a great guy! A respectful cheater. 

That's called minimizing and rationalization on her part. There's nothing respectful about a guy who would be willing to destroy two families. He's nothing but a POS and you need to make his life miserable - legally.

Look OP, you have got to find your anger and use it constructively to follow the good advise you've been given.


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## z_man

grux22 said:


> She told me she needs space to be "myself" and that I only see us as YS
> 
> *Asked me to give her some freedom to be herself with out me... *
> And this is true I want to do everything with her.. She does need the freedom to go out and be herself


Translation: freedom to be herself (with this other man) without you interfering, asking questions, and making her feel guilty. 

Actions:

* Lawyer up to understand your options and what divorce will look like for you custody/financially and to get separation/divorce papers drawn up for when you Option A/B her.

* The 180

* Expose to the OM's wife. He may throw your wife under the bus and cut all contact with her in an effort to reconcile with his wife, especially if this is not his first affair.

* Gain 24.7 access to her phone, computer, and car to monitor her activities going forward. Keylog the computer, gps the car, run data recovery and monitoring s/w for the phone. 

* Do not agree to any type of separation, either you or her leaving the house. 

* Read 'Not Just Friends' by Dr Shirley Glass, 'No More Mr Nice Guy' by Dr Robert Glover, and 'The Married Man Sex Life Primer' by Athol Kay, for starters.

Considerations:

* Unless your wife goes no contact with the OM, marriage counseling will not produce the results you are looking for. She is deep into the fog and the only way to clear it up (if at all) is complete separation from the OM. No texts, emails, phone calls, meetups.

* Remorse - not the same thing as guilt. Check out The Chump Lady - Real vs. Imitation Remorse to understand what you should expect from a truly remorseful cheating spouse.

* If there is a glimmer of hope your wife has any remorse, then you can Option her with A: all of the above or B: Divorce (this is where you present her with the divorce papers.

Good Luck, you are in the right place to get the help and support you need to get through this.


----------



## MRR

grux22 said:


> See this is why it gets so messed up... She thinks so high of this guy cause he "respects" her enough to never force anything on his behalf..
> My wife has told me she needs help and doesn't know where to start of what to do... That's why mc started
> 
> She has to take action


No, you need to start acting like a man. 

Your head is in the sand. This guy has f**** YOUR wife. 

Time to stand up for yourself. 

This guy has been inside your wife-- imagine that for a moment b/c it has happened. 

The question is not does she still want you, but do you still want her? The answer should be probably be a no at this point. 

And MC is for two people; as long as she is in contact with another man, you should not be going to MC together. You should definitely be in contact with a lawyer though. Yesterday. 

Quit trying to be mr sensitive/understanding. Very unattractive and weak to her.


----------



## MarriedDude

brooklynAnn said:


> Look buddy, you need to wake up. Forget your wife and what she needs. You might think you will beg, plea, explain and debate why she should stay married to you and she would turn around and choose you.
> 
> Look at every case of cheating on TAM, it does not happen that way. It takes along time for cheating spouses to see what they did wrong, if they ever do at all.
> 
> You need to figure out what you want. You want to stay married? To what a cheating, lying woman. Who has no respect for you and certainly does not love you. Because if she did, you would not be here.
> 
> Listen to yourself. Your wife found her soulmate. WTF are you?
> You are just the man she is married to and that means nothing to her.
> 
> *If someone said to you, "I have found the love of my life. He gets me like no-one else. We are soulmates, join together, forever.". What do you say to that person? Good luck and get the F***out. Here is your bag. *
> 
> You are making yourself weak and desperate in her eyes. Forget all the stuff you trusted her with and hope she would never do. It's all water under the bridge. Now your new reality is your WIFE IS A CHEAT LYING WHATEVER.
> 
> What you need to do, is get up off the floor. Brush yourself off and start looking out for you. You want your marriage back? Start working on you. Act like a strong man. No begging/pleading.
> 
> Pack her bag. visit a divorce lawyer and get the process started. Implement the 180. Get it from @EleGirl profile.
> 
> That is how you start getting your marriage back. Until you open her eyes to what she has to lose, you are fighting a losing game. Especially with the OM looking to get a divorce from his marriage. You can discuss all the things you trusted her with from now until the cows come home and it's going to get you nowhere. Get a grip and start watching out for you. When she recommits to the marriage, you can then start therapy and figure where things when wrong.
> 
> Now get going. Start the 180.


Boom....this is the truth


----------



## alte Dame

This may sound like sarcasm, but it isn't. It is practical advice:

Contact the OM's wife and tell her that you are sending your WW over to their place to be with her soulmate. Since you love your WW and love is unselfish, you want only the best, happiest life for her. That is clearly with him, her SOULMATE. No doubt his BW will want the same for him - the best, happiest life for him. No doubt she will selflessly step aside to let the two of them find their bliss in the open.

Get in touch with the BW of the OM. Let her know that your WW is actively in her marriage and that you are letting your BW go.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
Here is your wife's future. She pushes for this OM to the point of destroying her marriage. She loses you, her home, her security, at least partial custody of her children and all self respect, integrity and the respect of everyone who knows what is going on.

But now she has her nirvana. Her and the OM begin life together, which is oddly very sexual suddenly. Then she begins to see that the OM says and does things that she finds less and less soulmate like. Suddenly she finds intimacy dropping off and suspicion creeping in. Then she finds evidence that her soulmate is putting his "soul" into another mate. Suddenly she realizes that her soulmate is a piece of scum. Then she starts seeing you in a very different light but you have moved on and she has made a grave error.

If for no other reason, can she not see that this OM is on woman #4. Three before her and yet she does not see that there will be a #5 and #6 and so on? How can she be this naive? It is true that you cannot make someone love you but you can make them appreciate you when they see what they have lost. You must adopt more of a hardline stance with her, she is behaving like an immature child.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Your wife got played and she in turn is playing you.... 

Start moving on without her, protect kids, and if she chooses to catch up and lift herself up out of the darkness, then so be it. Your job is to stay in the light. She will attempt to throw darkness out you because she feels dark inside and doesn't like it, but understand you are fully in the light. Make sense?

And always remember... she chose to step out of the light and into the darkness. 

She did not have to make that choice. 

And she can choose to step into the light and leave the darkness behind. 

If she doesn't not make it a clear cut, she will be gray and neither of you will have her. Nor will her children.

You must ask her to step fully into the light with you. Otherwise the emotional availability to you and your children will be seriously compromised. And I don't think you are looking for a half wife or half mother to your children.


----------



## Sbrown

grux22 said:


> How I see it she is embarrassed with what she did.. And she feels guilty.. She is poking and prodding and trying to get me pissed to do sucha thing... She wont even say the D word.
> 
> If I push now before she even hears what the mc says to us together there is no chance for me


There's no chance currently. You're option 2. Her soul mate told her he wasn't leaving his wife so now she has to work it out with you while keeping him close enough to dump you as soon as Ole boy is ready. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Sbrown

grux22 said:


> I see what's going on and I want her and I want to turn this thing around
> 
> I assure u she has not gotten physical with him


Lol she has. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## drifting on

Grux

Does OM's wife know all of these details? Do you think she should know? What would your wife say if OMW found out? 

Your wife isn't confused, your wife knows what she wants, she is just too selfish to tell you. She is in the fog, she can't think rationally, in fact breathing is difficult as her brain pickles. When have you ever seen your wife WILLINGLY want to cause so much pain and devastation to your kids? For this reason you need to hit her hard to get that fog to clear. By that I mean 180, retain a lawyer, fill out divorce papers in front of her, be an asshat. Don't go to anymore MC together, if you want to go on your own, go for you, not the marriage. When she asks questions, unless about your kids, refer her to her boyfriend. Don't talk about anything you plan to do. Remember that old children's book, see **** run? That's you now. See **** run to lawyer. See **** run to bank and separate accounts. See **** file for sole custody. See **** tell the OMW. See **** live happy!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hoosier

"She believes he is in her life to help better her life. And maybe even our marriage"

Don't tell me you stood there and shook your head yes when she said this!

NO CONTACT!


----------



## TDSC60

Please tell me that you and your wife have cut all ties and communication with the "club".

As long as communication with OM or anything associated with OM (such as the club or other members of the club) continue, the affair cannot be stopped. No contact with the organization, the members, and OM are an essential first step in saving your marriage. If she is not willing to do this, she does not want a marriage with you.

As others have said, her wanting "space" to find herself is typical cheater speak for "I want this other OM and don't want to have to worry about you monitoring my other life with him".


----------



## Grogmiester

grux22 said:


> *How I see it she is embarrassed* with what she did.. And she feels guilty.. She is poking and prodding and trying to get me pissed to do sucha thing... *She wont even say the D word. *
> 
> If I push now before she even hears what the mc says to us together there is no chance for me


OP sorry you're going through this but I'm actually glad you're here! 

The 2 x 4's that have been coming your way are a type of therapy for BS's like you and me. You my friend are in a fog of your own. TAM wasn't around during my "infidelity adventure" and had it been I think I would have woken up a Looooong time before I did.

She's embarrassed ? You feel sorry for her and want to help her because you love her? Stop rationalizing this and trying to save her. Take care of yourself and protect your family and assets. She's the one to save herself. 

You don't want to push her? Well let me tell you something, if you don't expose this to everyone and get her out of her fog your marriage has NO CHANCE of survival. That's when you'll find out if she's remorseful or not. Make her own this with some consequences by exposing.

Why would she mention D because you're there paying the bills while she's with her soul mate. Don't be plan B ,,,,, sorry but don't be a door mat!


----------



## grux22

Yes she messed up-- if she agrees to cut him 100% and be open with everything I can totally deal with that... It wouldn't matter if she banged him at this point or not.

If she came to me and said I messed up I want you and cut him- i would gladly work with her... I'm not gonna just sweep it under the rug heck no.

It's a bump if we can over come this and let her twin soul go why wouldn't we be better. 

I'm no perfect person she has stuck by me and forgiven me for my own mestakes--- granted nothing like this.. Does she at least not deserve a chance and not to just say eh f-it I'm done when something hard comes along... No matter where she goes in life she will be in same situation unless she corrects it now...


----------



## Grogmiester

grux22 said:


> Yes she messed up-- if she agrees to cut him 100% and be open with everything *I can totally deal with that... It wouldn't matter if she banged him at this point or not*.


This sounds good but being "100% open" is difficult to to get to if you can't verify the time line and wether the A was an EA or a PA. You'll get trickle truth most of the time.

Sorry about this but you don't really know if you can handle "if she banged him". It's still a question in your mind and you're dealing with it by saying it won't make a difference. It will ,,,, ask me how I know.


----------



## grux22

She says if she wanted to leave she would have already. She is here and willing to work on it... We both know what has to be done..
She knows she needs help
We know we need help
I know I need help

Isn't part of being married is better or worse? And why can't u make it better? She is gonna try so am I 

Throwing out divorce out there is not gonna help us over come this


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## naiveonedave

grux22 said:


> Throwing out divorce out there is not gonna help us over come this


I disagree, she needs to see that a) you are serious about not sharing your wife and b) her actions are reprehensible and that you are at least willing to consider D if chit doesn't change.


----------



## grux22

So if she put effort in and we both change for better?

why should we just jump to D isn't here a line of progression down hill?
We both know it's a possibility but we both don't want to end up there.. We both like our marriage just not where it is at now


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## Chaparral

grux22 said:


> Yes she messed up-- if she agrees to cut him 100% and be open with everything I can totally deal with that... It wouldn't matter if she banged him at this point or not.
> 
> If she came to me and said I messed up I want you and cut him- i would gladly work with her... I'm not gonna just sweep it under the rug heck no.
> 
> It's a bump if we can over come this and let her twin soul go why wouldn't we be better.
> 
> I'm no perfect person she has stuck by me and forgiven me for my own mestakes--- granted nothing like this.. Does she at least not deserve a chance and not to just say eh f-it I'm done when something hard comes along... No matter where she goes in life she will be in same situation unless she corrects it now...


Nothing you have posted indicates this happening. 

What is her parents telling her?

Look how many thousands of threads are in this CI section. Not one man has saved his family be playing nice. You have to make her see reality.

His wife, three other women and your wife make at least five. He wants your wife for sex, not to deal with your kids.

You let your wife go on four dates with a tatted up pierced player.

You said something about cleaning the house. How much does she do around the house? Does she have job? Who makes the most money?

The reason no one here is believing her story or thinking you can save this your way is because of the thousands here before you.


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## Chaparral

grux22 said:


> She says if she wanted to leave she would have already. She is here and willing to work on it... We both know what has to be done..
> She knows she needs help
> We know we need help
> I know I need help
> 
> Isn't part of being married is better or worse? And why can't u make it better? She is gonna try so am I
> 
> Throwing out divorce out there is not gonna help us over come this


So she is no longer in contact with him or the club?


----------



## naiveonedave

grux22 said:


> So if she put effort in and we both change for better?
> 
> why should we just jump to D isn't here a line of progression down hill?
> We both know it's a possibility but we both don't want to end up there.. We both like our marriage just not where it is at now


D is a continuum. Starts with initial consultations, then paperwork, then file, then serve, then negotiate/litigate. you can stop at any point. 

Letting her know you are considering D gives you some of the power she took when she cheated.


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## MRR

grux22 said:


> She says if she wanted to leave she would have already. She is here and willing to work on it... We both know what has to be done..
> She knows she needs help
> We know we need help
> I know I need help
> 
> Isn't part of being married is better or worse? And why can't u make it better? She is gonna try so am I
> 
> Throwing out divorce out there is not gonna help us over come this


Filing for divorce and being willing to go through with it is probably the ONE thing that can save your marriage. All this other nonsense you are throwing out is weakness, and it is precisely this weakness that is causing her to not be sexually attracted to her. 

Showing her that you are a strong man and will go on with your life with or without her MIGHT re-attract her. 

But being nice to her after she betrayed you-- she thinks you are weak. Women do not like to be 'mean' so she is being nice to you while you slowly ride this thing out into the sunset. Secretly, she truly has pity for you. 

You are a charity case now.


----------



## brooklynAnn

MRR said:


> Filing for divorce and being willing to go through with it is probably the ONE thing that can save your marriage. All this other nonsense you are throwing out is weakness, and it is precisely this weakness that is causing her to not be sexually attracted to her.
> 
> Showing her that you are a strong man and will go on with your life with or without her MIGHT re-attract her.
> 
> But being nice to her after she betrayed you-- she thinks you are weak. Women do not like to be 'mean' so she is being nice to you while you slowly ride this thing out into the sunset. Secretly, she truly has pity for you.
> 
> You are a charity case now.


The above quote is exactly why you need to be strong and stop begging.

You want your wife and marriage . Then, you have to be willing to show her you are willing to lose it. Or do you want her to stay with you and pine for him. Should she stay because you guilt her into it? Do you want her to start respecting you and love you again? 

Then, do as you are advice. Or spend the year begging.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## z_man

grux22 said:


> So if she put effort in and we both change for better?
> 
> *why should we just jump to D* isn't here a line of progression down hill?
> We both know it's a possibility but we both don't want to end up there.. We both like our marriage just not where it is at now


It is not a jump, it is the option she faces (as do you) that if she does not back up her words of reconciliation with the actions necessary for reconciliation to have a chance, then divorce goes on the table. 

You have to make her understand that you are fully capable of initiating divorce. Otherwise she will throw out the words you want to hear without having to back them up with actions.


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## Sbrown

grux22 said:


> Yes she messed up-- if she agrees to cut him 100% and be open with everything I can totally deal with that... It wouldn't matter if she banged him at this point or not.
> 
> If she came to me and said I messed up I want you and cut him- i would gladly work with her... I'm not gonna just sweep it under the rug heck no.
> 
> It's a bump if we can over come this and let her twin soul go why wouldn't we be better.
> 
> I'm no perfect person she has stuck by me and forgiven me for my own mestakes--- granted nothing like this.. Does she at least not deserve a chance and not to just say eh f-it I'm done when something hard comes along... No matter where she goes in life she will be in same situation unless she corrects it now...


She has no reason to give up her "soul mate" so long as you tolerate them having a relationship. 

And you're using a pretty big broom to try and make this go away. Ain't worked yet.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Relationship Teacher

grux22 said:


> So if she put effort in and we both change for better?
> 
> why should we just jump to D isn't here a line of progression down hill?
> We both know it's a possibility but we both don't want to end up there.. We both like our marriage just not where it is at now





grux22 said:


> She says if she wanted to leave she would have already. She is here and willing to work on it... We both know what has to be done..
> She knows she needs help
> We know we need help
> I know I need help
> 
> Isn't part of being married is better or worse? And why can't u make it better? She is gonna try so am I
> 
> Throwing out divorce out there is not gonna help us over come this


You need to come at this like two individuals. What do you want and what does she want. Any relationship works when both individuals wake up and decide to come home every single day. It is a choice.

She knows what she has done. She knows the ramifications. Let her do what she is going to do. If it ends up involving you and you are still around, then great.

This marriage absolutely can be saved, I just think it is not helpful to be making any long term plans. Focus entirely on your emotional health.

MRR said being nice to her is a bad idea.. I disagree. People think that way because of a misunderstanding of how emotions work. You cannot make anyone happy. Your actions are for YOUR emotional benefit. Be nice, but not needy and overly loving. Trust me, it works. She is going to realize how awful her actions were and you being nice and respectful will punish her even more. But you are being nice for yourself.

I act the same way now as I advise individuals to when cheated on. The same self-happiness and durability that makes my relationship great, yields great benefits in times of unrest. This mindset should be used on any disagreement or argument.


----------



## Steve1000

grux22 said:


> We both like our marriage just not where it is at now


Most of us remember very clearly what you are feeling now: intense and unrelenting misery. Like too many of us were, you are currently desperate to find something to temporarily remove this pain, which often is to hear some reassuring from the spouse. Unfortunately, these words of comfort never last very long because we keep thinking of things that contradict these very cheap words. 

You will likely make many mistakes that you'll wish you could do over in the next year, but as time goes on, you will be able to process everything and make logical decisions again. Keep in mind that probably all of us (this is very nonpartisan) are very sorry that you are here.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

grux22 said:


> So the kids got involved in this and my daughter knew that mommy had a boy friend.... This stopped all the Soulmate stuff rite in its tracks... She has refocused leaving me to working on what we have done to each other in MC and really wants to overcome it. The last straw was the kids Involvement... Not proud that my kids know but it has been an eye opener


Wow, a total turn around in ONE DAY! Its a MIRACLE!! Nope, its BULLSH!T is what it is! My god, in reading your other posts, you are SO WEAK and she knows this. You have NO chance unless all contact with that man stops completely and immediately. Pull your head out of the sand. 

I get the feeling there is a lot of rug sweeping by you coming up.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Relationship Teacher said:


> You need to come at this like two individuals. What do you want and what does she want. Any relationship works when both individuals wake up and decide to come home every single day. It is a choice.
> 
> She knows what she has done. She knows the ramifications. Let her do what she is going to do. If it ends up involving you and you are still around, then great.
> 
> This marriage absolutely can be saved, I just think it is not helpful to be making any long term plans. Focus entirely on your emotional health.
> 
> MRR said being nice to her is a bad idea.. I disagree. People think that way because of a misunderstanding of how emotions work. You cannot make anyone happy. Your actions are for YOUR emotional benefit. Be nice, but not needy and overly loving. Trust me, it works. She is going to realize how awful her actions were and you being nice and respectful will punish her even more. But you are being nice for yourself.
> 
> I act the same way now as I advise individuals to when cheated on. The same self-happiness and durability that makes my relationship great, yields great benefits in times of unrest. This mindset should be used on any disagreement or argument.


Terrible advice, as usual. People PAY you??


----------



## brooklynAnn

3Xnocharm said:


> Wow, a total turn around in ONE DAY! Its a MIRACLE!! Nope, its BULLSH!T is what it is! My god, in reading your other posts, you are SO WEAK and she knows this. You have NO chance unless all contact with that man stops completely and immediately. Pull your head out of the sand.
> 
> I get the feeling there is a lot of rug sweeping by you coming up.


Agreed. 

Major rugsweeping has begun. I have seen the light!!!

I call BS. She is saying all the right things so you can get off her back. Then, the affair goes underground and you are right where you started. Only the next time your hurt will be so much more.

Read up on the other people's stories. 

You will still be weak and she will still love her soulmate. Even more. Because look at the sacrifice she had to make for you. When someone say that person is their soulmate. That is strong stuff, buddy. You don't get over that in a day. 

But it's your life. I am just sitting on my sofa and reading your story. 

If I met my soulmate I would be fighting the world to be with him. Just saying. My weak and desperate husband will be no match for that. Just saying. Because I have no respect for weak and desperate. I might be afraid of my DD and stay to make her happy. But not with you. 

In a few weeks, when the OM has his separation. Your wife will be gone.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

3Xnocharm said:


> Terrible advice, as usual. People PAY you??


Would you mind countering with an actual argument? :wink2:


----------



## 6301

grux22 said:


> Isn't part of being married is better or worse? And why can't u make it better? She is gonna try so am I


 Yeah but the problem is she's getting the "better" and your getting the "worse"


----------



## grux22

First off I have contacted the wife and that essentially lead them to a huge fight where he got a domestic complaint out of it. Second I confronted him when I caught them at the bar k one night and talked about it like men do---- me ready to beat the everlving snot out of him! This lead to him fleeing after apologizing... This only showed my wife that I let the anger of the situation over come me and embarrass her in front of other people... 

Heck part of what she likes about him is how he is calm and collected most of time and thinks before he acts... I have not always done this so I'm trying to stay calm and not mess things up... I hear all your advice and trust me I'm starting the 180... I'm a recovering nice guy... I know I bend over backwards and enable her.... I'm gonna look out for me. The kids have come into the picture and I will always put them first... They can't be exposed to this and she is holding that in me now... We are nickle on dimes...

I will get paper work in order and will come through with it if needed... As long as she is taking time to get help and rid herself of him then I am gonna take time and work on my 180 that attracted her in the first place... 

She is coming to terms with what is going on... I have talked to her mom and her mom assures me that if i don't give her the space I surly will drive her out... And her mom knows her best.


----------



## Steve1000

brooklynAnn said:


> In a few weeks, when the OM has his separation. Your wife will be gone.


I'm not that optimistic about the OM leaving his wife. However, in a few years from now, OP might be wishing that his wife would have left with the OM.


----------



## Steve1000

Relationship Teacher said:


> Would you mind countering with an actual argument? :wink2:


Speaking for myself, I think that your suggestion of being nice and loving is not the right decision. His wife needs to face the consequences of her betrayal before she has any chance to make real changes in herself.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I call bs. You're behaving like a scared child. You threatened the POSOM and SHE got embarrassed and you ACCEPTED that bull*hit????

She doesn't GET to get embarrassed. You protected your family from a predictor. You should have told her it was because of HER putting the marriage in jeopardy NOT because of you protecting the marriage.

She's blame shifting and gas lighting you and you are running with your tail between your legs.

If she can't live with her infidelity and will run away unless you give her space, THATS HER WEAKNESS. Don't throw gas on that fire! When will it end? Every time she has consequences, you will have to give her space? 

It doesn't mean you have to smother her - but it DOES mean you can demand 100% transparency and knowing where she is at all times and NC. That is NOT getting into "her space" it's required due to her actions to destroy the marriage.


----------



## manfromlamancha

grux22 said:


> See this is why it gets so messed up... She thinks so high of this guy *cause he "respects" her enough to never force anything on his behalf.*.
> My wife has told me *she needs help and doesn't know where to start of what to do*... That's why mc started
> 
> She has to take action


Classic player bull$h!t and classic wayward fobbing you off response!
She wants space to be able to fvck him freely while giving you this bull$h!t to keep you saying what you are saying to us.



grux22 said:


> Yes she messed up-- if she agrees to cut him 100% and be open with everything I can totally deal with that... *It wouldn't matter if she banged him at this point or not.*
> 
> If she came to me and said I messed up I want you and cut him- i would gladly work with her... I'm not gonna just sweep it under the rug heck no.
> 
> *It's a bump if we can over come this* and let her twin soul go why wouldn't we be better.
> 
> I'm no perfect person she has stuck by me and forgiven me for my own mestakes--- granted nothing like this.. Does she at least not deserve a chance and not to just say eh f-it I'm done when something hard comes along... No matter where she goes in life she will be in same situation unless she corrects it now...



This is more than just a bump. She's already got you saying to us that its not a deal breaker if she has banged him (you started by being absolutely sure that she would never bang him). She does not deserve a chance - YOU DO! The best thing you could do for her if you really want to help her is make her feel the consequences and do not act or appear to be weak! You will lose respect and she will lose everything!




grux22 said:


> *She says if she wanted to leave she would have already*. She is here and willing to work on it... We both know what has to be done..
> She knows she needs help
> We know we need help
> I know I need help
> 
> *Isn't part of being married is better or worse?* And why can't u make it better? She is gonna try so am I
> 
> Throwing out divorce out there is not gonna help us over come this


Please don't tell me you are buying her bull$h!t.. She cannot leave because she has no stability …. yet (in her mind)! If lover boy soulmate offered stability in addition to some pretty exciting sex, she would be gone. And as others are saying this is not for better or worse - it is about bad and good - this is not a worse situation - this is her being BAD! And you getting the worst of it.




grux22 said:


> So if she put effort in and we both change for better?
> 
> why should we just jump to D isn't here a line of progression down hill?
> We both know it's a possibility but we both don't want to end up there.. *We both like our marriage just not where it is at now*


She doesn't like where the marriage is currently because she is not free to fvck her soulmate - and you don't like where the marriage is because she is trying to. This is not a question of the marriage is so bad that this happened. You both are unhappy with the current situation for two different reasons.



grux22 said:


> First off *I have contacted the wife and that essentially lead them to a huge fight where he got a domestic complaint out of it*. Second* I confronted him* when I caught them at the bar k one night and talked about it like men do---- me ready to beat the everlving snot out of him! *This lead to him fleeing after apologizing.*.. This only showed my wife that I let the anger of the situation over come me and embarrass her in front of other people...
> 
> *Heck part of what she likes about him is how he is calm and collected most of time and thinks before he acts.*.. I have not always done this so I'm trying to stay calm and not mess things up... I hear all your advice and trust me I'm starting the 180... I'm a recovering nice guy... I know I bend over backwards and enable her.... I'm gonna look out for me. The kids have come into the picture and I will always put them first... They can't be exposed to this and she is holding that in me now... We are nickle on dimes...
> 
> *I will get paper work in order and will come through with it if needed.*.. As long as she is taking time to get help and rid herself of him then I am gonna take time and work on my 180 that attracted her in the first place...
> 
> She is coming to terms with what is going on... I have talked to her mom and her mom assures me that if i don't give her the space I surly will drive her out... And her mom knows her best.



This is the most positive thing that I have seen you do yet. All this ZEN calmness etc of his is part of his act and, make no mistake, he is a coward (fleeing after apologising indeed - if your wife cannot see that he was cowardly and snivelling, then she is stupid)! 

I don't know if her mom knows her best or not but she needs to see assertive action from you. His wife should hand his a$$ to him on a plate and then come after your wife! That will make her see sense and see him for what he is when he throws her under the bus. 

I also don't know if she is coming to terms with what the situation is - what I do know is that if you continue to pander to her (and him) you will lose and appear weak at the same time. If you take the kind of assertive action being advised and which you appear to have done now, she will "come to terms" and "see the light" etc. 

By the way, at the moment she is NOT taking time to rid herself of him - quite the opposite I think. She was figuring out how to rid herself of you.


----------



## Omar174

grux22 said:


> *She says if she wanted to leave she would have already.* She is here and willing to work on it... We both know what has to be done..
> She knows she needs help
> We know we need help
> I know I need help
> 
> Isn't part of being married is better or worse? And why can't u make it better? She is gonna try so am I
> 
> Throwing out divorce out there is not gonna help us over come this


Bull

I'm guessing if she could leave tomorrow to be with him she wouldn't think twice. 

She isn't leaving because she needs a plan B.


----------



## grux22

Or she gets rid of him and works on us? Is that un realistic? 
I mean we have had 7 perfect years together no arguing no bickering same views and raising kids... We have over come ever thing that we have encountered together up to this point... This is the first argument-big deal etc...I know this guy opend her eyes to how we have become predictable and disconnected some... Why with work can we not achieve such a thing?


----------



## brooklynAnn

grux22 said:


> Or she gets rid of him and works on us? Is that un realistic?
> I mean we have had 7 perfect years together no arguing no bickering same views and raising kids... We have over come ever thing that we have encountered together up to this point... This is the first argument-big deal etc...I know this guy opend her eyes to how we have become predictable and disconnected some... Why with work can we not achieve such a thing?


I hope so for your sake and the kids. I wish for you that she realizes and wakeup from her fog. That your marriage will be happier from this point on.

But don't ever beg anyone to stay with you. You come at her from a position of power and strength, so she chooses to be with you. She choose you because you make her happy and she loves you and will recommit to you and your marriage. This should be the only reason why she stays.


----------



## Grogmiester

grux22 said:


> She is coming to terms with what is going on... *I have talked to her mom and her mom assures me that if i don't give her the space I surly will drive her out... And her mom knows her best.*


Hmmmmm I'm not sure getting advise from your MIL is the best course of action. Blood is blood as they say.


----------



## manfromlamancha

grux22 said:


> Or she gets rid of him and works on us? Is that un realistic?
> I mean we have had 7 perfect years together no arguing no bickering same views and raising kids... We have over come ever thing that we have encountered together up to this point... This is the first argument-big deal etc...*I know this guy opend her eyes to how we have become predictable and disconnected some*... Why with work can we not achieve such a thing?


First of all you have GOT TO STOP SAYING THINGS LIKE THIS!!!!

"Opened her eyes to how we have become predictable and disconnected"???? Really?

How about saying something like:

*"I know this guy played her to try and get into her pants. He worked out that the way to do this is to be different to me and titillate her with his ZEN bull$h!t. She on the other hand was more than open to this and was keen to progress stuff".*

That would be more normal and accurate then the cloud you, yourself, seem to be in!


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Steve1000 said:


> Speaking for myself, I think that your suggestion of being nice and loving is not the right decision. His wife needs to face the consequences of her betrayal before she has any chance to make real changes in herself.


Thanks for your comment.

OP is in pain and will not be able to give proper romantic love and that is not what I advise, anyway. What I advise individuals do is more akin to being polite. There is no benefit to giving negativity to cheaters. Acting on negativity begets more negativity. It only hurts the cheated-on spouse. Any "need" to punish the cheater will only hurt OP. By being polite, there will be many questions ruminating in the cheater's mind. They expect sobbing or great anger. When they don't get that, they are left out in the cold. They realize that this strong individual is a force to be reckoned with. It shows incredible strength to be polite/nice in the face of an affair. Further, the emphasis placed on the punishment adds significance to the affair that really isn't needed. It is bad enough and does not need to compound on itself.

The main purpose for this advice is to turn the amygdala response down from an 11.


----------



## Chaparral

grux22 said:


> Or she gets rid of him and works on us? Is that un realistic?
> I mean we have had 7 perfect years together no arguing no bickering same views and raising kids... We have over come ever thing that we have encountered together up to this point... This is the first argument-big deal etc...I know this guy opend her eyes to how we have become predictable and disconnected some... Why with work can we not achieve such a thing?


You can if she goes no contact and quits pining for him.

Do you both work? 

So how many times have they been out drinking and how do you know this for a fact?


----------



## grux22

So do I wait to mc to bring up all this... ? I mean if I drop the bomb now she just might walk rite


----------



## grux22

I work- I make about 4 times what she makes..

If I get angry with her or
Upset she just turns it on me and holds a grudge--- she is holding this grudge now cause she is upset with herself and is taking it out on me.

Getting hard only pushes her away
I accept the situation we are in...


----------



## grux22

They have only been out once to the bar and that when i caught them--- he was having a bad day cause his wife left him for two weeks and my wife was there for advice... I think it was lonely booty call try


----------



## Chaparral

grux22 said:


> I work- I make about 4 times what she makes..
> 
> If I get angry with her or
> Upset she just turns it on me and holds a grudge--- she is holding this grudge now cause she is upset with herself and is taking it out on me.
> 
> Getting hard only pushes her away
> I accept the situation we are in...


No one is telling you to be an ash:hole. Be indifferent like you would deal with the mailman. Be cheery and happy acting at home. Don't even talk about it unless she brings it up. Have you found the 180 list?


----------



## Chaparral

How do you know where she is 24/7?

People leave work or take off early or take a day off.

That may they are going out with friends or visit relatives or going shopping.

How many texts do they send a day?


----------



## grux22

I have... I googled it I dunno if there is a link to it here tho

After work I also plan at looking into the books mentioned


----------



## grux22

I dunno 
I am cut from her phone computer and all forms of contact

She says they only chat twice a day... He is an Union electrician and is with his wife the rest of time.... His wife is 100% against mine... So they don't talk then to best of my knowledge 

She says I act like I think they talk all the time when I do believe the reality is they talk a lot less then I think


----------



## Omar174

grux22 said:


> Or she gets rid of him and works on us? Is that un realistic?
> I mean we have had 7 perfect years together no arguing no bickering same views and raising kids... We have over come ever thing that we have encountered together up to this point... This is the first argument-big deal etc...I know this guy opend her eyes to how we have become predictable and disconnected some... Why with work can we not achieve such a thing?


Sure it's possible that you stay together. But that's not what she wants. It's her settling for her plan B, and you sweeping it under a rug. 

I hate to be so curt about it my friend. But you have to face the facts. Your wife is in love with someone else. I get that it's a horrible thing to accept, but you should.


----------



## grux22

She does

Does that mean she is going to act on it?


----------



## grux22

So in this 180- she comes home hops in bed next to me... Am I not supposed to hug her and spoon her? 
Or just roll over and cold shoulder her


----------



## MarriedDude

grux22 said:


> I dunno
> I am cut from her phone computer and all forms of contact
> 
> She says they only chat twice a day... He is an Union electrician and is with his wife the rest of time.... *His wife is 100% against mine.*.. So they don't talk then to best of my knowledge
> 
> She says I act like I think they talk all the time when I do believe the reality is they talk a lot less then I think


Your new bestie should be his wife. 

Invite her for a cup if coffee....then sit back and watch EVERYTHING change


----------



## Steve1000

grux22 said:


> If I get angry with her or
> Upset she just turns it on me and holds a grudge--- she is holding this grudge now cause she is upset with herself and is taking it out on me.
> 
> Getting hard only pushes her away
> I accept the situation we are in...


Wife has an affair and husband is walking on egg shells so he doesn't push her away. I don't know what kind of thought processes you have in general, but I hope you come across your comments in a couple of years and have a strong urge to slap yourself for being so passive. You need to gain some self worth.


----------



## grux22

I tried that... Getting her to talk... That led to her kicking him out agreeing to a divorce basically.. 

They are still considering mc them self from what I understand tho according to my wife 

What they do shouldn't affect me I hope


----------



## MattMatt

Yes. For sure it is all your your fault. 

You should have used your x-ray vision and your powers of ESP to just KNOW the stuff she hid from you but told the other man.

This is nonsense.

You have to lawyer up and deal with OM and your wife and protect your children and yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 225985

grux22 said:


> Or she gets rid of him and works on us? Is that un realistic?
> I mean *we have had 7 perfect years together* no arguing no bickering same views and raising kids... We have over come ever thing that we have encountered together up to this point... This is the first argument-big deal etc...I know this guy opend her eyes to how we have become predictable and disconnected some... Why with work can we not achieve such a thing?


Your initial post says "We never fight and *put all of our effort into raising our kids... unfortunately we have kind of disconnected somewhat during all of this.* "

What is your definition of perfect?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

grux22 said:


> So do I wait to mc to bring up all this... ? I mean if I drop the bomb now she just might walk rite


So what if she does?? That would tell you EXACTLY where you stand with her, which would be right behind another man. If she walks, let her.


----------



## manfromlamancha

You need to understand that if she is ready to walk because you are trying to protect your marriage, she is not worth being married to. You have to be ready to lose her to have any chance of truly getting her back.

Also, as others are saying, you don't have to be rude or an a$$hole to her - in fact be your most cheerful and best person you can be. The 180 is essentially to help you heal and this is done by not accepting any nonsense. E.g. she cannot have a soulmate and be in a marriage at the same time and the 180 helps you to not accept that while strengthening yourself.

When she gets into bed, does she want you to hug her and spoon with her or is this your perception ? She needs to tell you why you should accept her while her heart is with someone else. Else follow the 180 rigidly.


----------



## drifting on

Grux

If this situation were reversed, what would your wife do? 

Have her prove to you the communication. Check against phone records. 

How is she to work on her marriage talking to her soulmate? 

Do you see how she will work on the marriage while talking to her soulmate?

Do you see how stupid the last two questions sound? 

She has met him many times, and you know for sure they never left?

Do you really give your wife space during an affair? 

Are you paying for your wife's dates?

Are you buying dinner for the OM who is having sex with your wife?

Are beginning to get a little hot under the collar?

Grux, your being played by both, OM and your wife, do you see them sitting around laughing at you? OM said sorry and ran, your wife denies you sex and gets ANGRY at you for chasing her boyfriend off. I think you Grux, that's right, you are in the fog more then your wife!!! Your wife is giving him sex, you nothing but grief, and OM said sorry. You can at least draw up the divorce papers and stop the divorce. All your wife is doing now is having fun in the dating world on your dime!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3Xnocharm

grux22 said:


> I dunno
> I am cut from her phone computer and all forms of contact
> 
> She says they only chat twice a day... He is an Union electrician and is with his wife the rest of time.... His wife is 100% against mine... So they don't talk then to best of my knowledge
> 
> She says I act like I think they talk all the time when I do believe the reality is they talk a lot less then I think


Oh, well, if its ONLY twice a day then...gee that's OK! Surely that means that they have never had sex and she loves you soooo much!

NO. NO CONTACT. PERIOD. Either contact is cut 100%, or she needs to get the hell out. And for you to allow anything else is total weakness and nice guy on your part. Enjoy sharing your wife.


----------



## Thound

grux22 said:


> She does
> 
> Does that mean she is going to act on it?


I don't know, but I would rather be divorced than be plan B. If you are plan B, you will always wonder does she love me, does she want to be with me? And when you're plan B there is no closeness, no intimacy. You're better off starting new.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Just say "OK". No more excuses. No more reasoning. Just say "OK". It is comfortable being a cheater with a nice warm home to come home to. When you say "OK", cheaters are left out in the cold. If she wants to act on her expressed love for OM, then denying her the ability to contact him won't decrease her feelings for him. If you let her eat her words, you are respecting her as an individual. It will become tremendously more obvious to her how much weight is behind the things she says and does. If she can't choose who to be with, then she is left alone, not with you as a default or fail-safe. Who wants to be a fail-safe?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

You make 4 times what she does. You're her provider.

She wants that plus she wants to ride his d*ck and admire him.

WIN for her.

Call her bluff. Tattoo boy can care for her. That will last 2 minutes.

Quit letting HER decide what you do next - she will decide that you DO NOTHING and give her space to fvck him

That's not a marriage - that's a cuckold relationship.


----------



## MarriedDude

grux22 said:


> I tried that... Getting her to talk... That led to her kicking him out agreeing to a divorce basically..
> 
> They are still considering mc them self from what I understand tho according to my wife
> 
> What they do shouldn't affect me I hope


Oh but you can make it so. 

She's your new buddy. Want to have some real fun....let your wife see him worried about what his wife is doing with you....


----------



## Nucking Futs

grux22 said:


> I dunno
> I am cut from her phone computer and all forms of contact
> 
> She says they only chat twice a day... He is an Union electrician and is with his wife the rest of time.... His wife is 100% against mine... So they don't talk then to best of my knowledge
> 
> She says I act like I think they talk all the time when I do believe the reality is they talk a lot less then I think


I've been resisting posting in this thread since it's looking like no one is going to get through to you and it's a waste of time trying, but this one I can't pass by. You are cut off from her phone, computer, and all forms of contact because if you could see how much time she spends in contact with him you would understand how she's playing you. 

You "believe the reality is they talk a lot less then I think" because you don't want to accept your reality. 

Your attitude is leading you to an epic wreck of a marriage.


----------



## badmemory

Grux,

Your fear of divorce is palpable. As long as you are afraid of driving her away by simply holding her accountable, then you have no chance at true R.

If and when you get to the point where she is the one that is afraid of you leaving; then you are where you need to be. But that can't happen if she doesn't believe you will divorce her. And for her to believe it, you have to believe it.


----------



## grux22

I hear all of you and i understand what i have to do.

This is considered a midlife crisis from what i understand... she has said first and foremost that she is working on herself and she knows she is being selfish and ignoring me. She has mentioned that even with this guy out of the picture there has got to be Some 1 person better in the world for her.... her reasoning there are billions of people there has to be... then proceeds to tell me that I'm too good for her and she hasn't shown loyalty or trust and that i truly deserve a better person... this may also be true... However does that mean we cannot both work on ourself for the better of us? 

Truth is she does not know what she wants, she does not know if she wants to be married have kids or live alone....

Fact is that i know this popped something in her head... and i have told her to go if she is unhappy.. i will always take good care of kids.
She still believes that she can be happy with me for 30 years... but she will always wonder WHAT IF...
What if she had left me for D-bag
What if she had not even tried for us
What if she is better off alone..

at this point All those what if's affect the life's of others MAJOR....
You don't just say hey oh look someone better and ditch your last 8 years and everything you have... you will never be happy if you keep recycling your life. Any Hurt and suffering is not going to magically go away because of divorce paper... she will have to carry that hurt on to her next relationship, yeah it may be happy at first but her cycle from being raised in a broken family and her inability to latch on will break free again and the same thing will happen.

I'm Giving her a helping hand, I see that she may need to go have her midlife crisis and live wild and get all the answer that she magically searching for... If she needs to try this Guy i have given her the ability to do so... she said hell no! I said if you need to be alone i got the kids go and be free, she said No, If she needs time with out me i will go live with my parents and she can take care of everything.... once again NO.

She wants life to continue on... as she works this mess out in her head... she may leave me tomorrow(ihope not) but if that what she has to do im not stopping her and i have told her that.

She is to appalled with herself to even try and bang me let alone him,,, she cant even stomach the idea of some one else banging her let alone me.

I asked her if she wanted like an open relationship.... she said no she couldn't do that..... 
I will Put the foot down and Get the gears turning here.


----------



## Marduk

grux22 said:


> So in this 180- she comes home hops in bed next to me... Am I not supposed to hug her and spoon her?
> Or just roll over and cold shoulder her


I would laugh at her and ask if her boyfriend was busy with his wife tonight.

And then kick her the **** out of my bed and tell her not to come back.

What are you thinking, man? She's cheating on you, so you spoon her as a response? Isn't that like rewarding your kids for NOT picking up their room by giving them a kit kat bar?


----------



## Grogmiester

grux22 said:


> I asked her if she wanted like an open relationship.... she said no she couldn't do that.....


Marriage problems are never solved in someone esles bed ,,,, just saying


----------



## Sports Fan

Number one 1 am truly sorry you are here and expriencing such pain.

Number 2, the affair has gone physical. You busted them at a bar for heavens sake and she wants to leave you. (Lets not delude yourself or be gullible here)

Number 3 she is in whats called the fog state. She thinks everything is going to turn out rosy for her and your soft response to all this has enabled her terrible behavour.

You need to take drastic action now if you will have any chance to save your marriage. (If thats what you want)

Unfortunately this will require you hardening up your attitude towards her and doing a 180 on her. If you dont know what that means read up here.

The first thing you must do is seperate any joint accounts or shared Credit Cards etc. Take the money and put it in your own personal account than start depositing your pay there. Dont worry about the morality of it you are now at war with your FORMER best friend that knows all your secrets and weaknesses. She wont hesitate to exploit them as history has shown on this forum hundreds of times before.

Insist that she leave the house. Inform her you won't house her whilst she continues to be involved with a third party. If you both own the house and she won't go at the very least pack her stuff and move it to the spare room. It is very important that she moves to the spare room not you. She has done the wrong thing so she must be alereted to moving to the spare room is part of the consequences she faces.

Expose the affair to your family both yours and hers and your friends. Ensure you talk to other mans wife also and inform her. There is every chance once you inform other mans wife he will most likely throw your wife under the bus in order to save his own marriage and expose your wife to what she really was to him a piece of arse that was easy to hit.

Visit a Good Divorce Lawyer and get some advice on how a Divorce will shake out for you than have her served. You can always stop proceedings later. 

In short your wife has to be slapped back into reality and only by doing the above can this happen. She has to feel the consequences for her actions and by you manning up and doing such she will have a complete new respect for you even if she wont admit it. At the very least she will know her infedility will not be tolerated by you.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Interesting.

So the 180 is about being independent, worthwhile, while, complete, confident, no reactive, etc.

It is useful when one is codependent and is reacting to a BS and trying everything to win them back.

You went 180 in the 180.

You want to go to him? Fine, go. You don't want to be a mom? Fine I've got the kids covered. You want to live with mom? Fine I'll support you.

Fascinating. Instead of resisting her you leaned into it and said "I'm fine with whatever you want to do with your life"

She said No to everything. Since you didn't resist any decision is hers alone and she can't blame you. So SHE is resisting deciding.

Good job - same endpoint.

Now decide what YOU want and tell her. And be honest - if you want to be married to a W who admires you and only wants to be with you, tell her that..


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
I am in total agreement with you. Her mother does know her best. It was her mother that created this selfish, egotistical narcissist. SHE doesn't know what SHE wants. Why would a mother not be more concerned with what her children need than what SHE wants? Why would a wife be more concerned with what SHE wants than what the man she vowed to love and cherish needs? Because she is not a wife nor a mother, she is a self absorbed self serving child in the body of a sexually mature woman.

She is a child in a candy (sex) store and you are refusing to not allow her to feast on candy (sex). The advice you are receiving is not to "take away her individuality" or to "control her" however, when a person shows that they are not capable of thinking for themselves then someone must think for them lest they seriously injure themselves. Man up and take a hardline stance or she will continue to act as a child and you an enabling sniveling parent scared to discipline your child. She needs guidance and boundaries that she was not taught by the one who knows her best.


----------



## sam59

Go to a Lawyer. Get everything including custody drawn up in your favor and have her sign it.

Let her find herself !


----------



## weightlifter

grux22 said:


> See this is why it gets so messed up... She thinks so high of this guy cause he "respects" her enough to never force anything on his behalf..
> My wife has told me she needs help and doesn't know where to start of what to do... That's why mc started
> 
> She has to take action


ugh. player 101. lie big, not small.

flip a coin on whether she had some form of sex.


----------



## Sports Fan

Also just out of curiosity how did you come to catch them at the bar? What led to the discovery?


----------



## Chaparral

You're getting nowhere if she is still hiding phone etc. Reconciliation doesn't start until she is totally.become transparent.

His wife isn't divorcing him for talking and texting. Find out what she knows.

She is still hiding everything she's doing.


----------



## eric1

grux22 said:


> She says if she wanted to leave she would have already. She is here and willing to work on it... We both know what has to be done..
> She knows she needs help
> We know we need help
> I know I need help
> 
> Isn't part of being married is better or worse? And why can't u make it better? She is gonna try so am I
> 
> Throwing out divorce out there is not gonna help us over come this




Translation: he told her that he's not leaving his wife for her.

What do you mean she is trying? Just 24 hours ago she was saying she'd rather be with her boyfriend and was running your nose in it by still talking to him, even in the face of the MC.

Dude....


----------



## 6301

grux22 said:


> This only showed my wife that I let the anger of the situation over come me and embarrass her in front of other people...


 Friend you just don't get it. You didn't embarrass her in front of people. SHE DID THAT ALL ON HER OWN!! She should have been home with her family rather than having her ass parked on a bar stool with a man that she has no business being with kapeesh?

All your doing is making one excuse after another for her and the longer you do that the worse it will get. 

You want to keep her? Then you better lay down some serious ground rules and let her know that she either follows them or she's out on her ear and that means no feeble excuse.

You got a lot of people giving you good advice here and for some reason your cutting your own path and if I was a betting man it will lead you to a real steep cliff.


----------



## eric1

Sports Fan said:


> Number one 1 am truly sorry you are here and expriencing such pain.
> 
> 
> 
> Number 2, the affair has gone physical. You busted them at a bar for heavens sake and she wants to leave you. (Lets not delude yourself or be gullible here)
> 
> 
> 
> Number 3 she is in whats called the fog state. She thinks everything is going to turn out rosy for her and your soft response to all this has enabled her terrible behavour.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to take drastic action now if you will have any chance to save your marriage. (If thats what you want)
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately this will require you hardening up your attitude towards her and doing a 180 on her. If you dont know what that means read up here.
> 
> 
> 
> The first thing you must do is seperate any joint accounts or shared Credit Cards etc. Take the money and put it in your own personal account than start depositing your pay there. Dont worry about the morality of it you are now at war with your FORMER best friend that knows all you secrets and weaknesses. She wont hesitate to exploit them as history has shown on this forum hundreds of times before.
> 
> 
> 
> Insist that she leave the house. Inform her you won't house her whilst she continues to be involved with a third party. If you both own the house and she won't go at the very least pack her stuff and move it to the spare room. It is very important that she moves to the spare room not you. She has done the wrong thing so she must be alereted to moving to the spare room is part of the consequences she faces.
> 
> 
> 
> Expose the affair to your family both yours and hers and your friends. Ensure you talk to other mans wife also and inform her. There is every chance once you inform other mans wife he will most likely throw your wife under the bus in order to save his own marriage and expose your wife to what she really was to him a piece of arse that was easy to hit.
> 
> 
> 
> Visit a Good Divorce Lawyer and get some advice on how a Divorce will shake out for you than have her served. You can always stop proceedings later.
> 
> 
> 
> In short your wife has to be slapped back into reality and only by doing the above can this happen. She has to feel the consequences for her actions and by you manning up and doing such she will have a complete new respect for you even if she wont admit it. At the very least she will know her infedility will not be tolerated by you.



+1

And double plus one on the physical part. Spouses don't leave because of some hot Instagram discussions.

You need to discuss this with her boyfriend's wife immediately.


----------



## grux22

I have not really spoken to her today... Everything that has been discussed has come up in previous conversation... 

I busted them by going up to
Her work with the kids to leave cards that we made with arts and crafts for her saying we love her and miss her and the. Blam she wasn't at work she was on break at the local bar wit cum stain.

I get the advice all I do. Would u like me to throw the wrench in spokes now....

In high school basically same thing happend... She cheated on her one bf for the next.... The original boy agreed that she made a mistake and took her in... She couldn't stand to see him miserable and was discussted in what she did that she actually tried to commit suicide... A trip to the ER and year of therapy got her to move on.... So years later here she is again... But she has kids now 

So a girl who has had a terrible child hood and moved 10 times lived with 6 different relatives has been sexually abused and tries to kill her self all before the time she is 20... Do I bail on her when I know she has the potential to be unstable - NO

Her mom and aunt went through the same thing sorta--- her mom had her when she was 15 when she was two her mom had some crazy post partum depression and broke down and doesn't remember huge pieces of time cause of the depression... It took her mom years of work with counsors to be ok... 

My wife who obviously has had depression may be in some delayed post partum depression... She needs help she has been telling me this
I need to listen to her too 
My kids need a mom now even if she has a boy friend at this point


----------



## sapientia

Okay I'm going to have a very different take on this, but a couple questions first:

1. Do you truly want to repair your marriage, or are you done trying? Do YOU want out? Be honest.

2. Are you certain the affair has gone physical. Not from inference, and not from the TAM mob opinion--do you KNOW? Don't BS yourself here either... if you know in your gut it's gone physical, then you are 99% right.

3. Are you prepared to confront her and her EA partner? You will need to shove everything about your marriage, your children, squarely in their faces.

A bit of my own background: I've been in an EA that did NOT go physical. I ended it by my own choice. So I know what it takes to shake off the fog. I did this in spite of my exH, not because of him. I worked out through a LOT of introspection that my EA was a symptom--not the cause--of some very serious issues in our marriage that had been neglected over a period of years. Unlike many here on TAM, I believe that affairs are not entirely one-sided. They are certainly a choice and a lack of willpower from the POV of the cheater, but the underlying issues that drive one to cheat are generally a product of the failure of BOTH people in a marriage to meet key needs of their partner.

There aren't a lot of us here on TAM with this experience, on either side, so you may find my POV helpful depending on where you are at in your own journey.

Looking forward to your reply.


----------



## grux22

I don't want out
The affair has not gotten physical 
I have confronted both of them
They both know my view and what's at risk


----------



## sapientia

Okay, so on reading your last post you seem to be dealing with someone stalled in their emotional development. History of sexual abuse, cheating. 

This is going to require a different kind of intervention if you want to stay married. My previous questions still apply. Do you still want to stay married, knowing how selfish your wife is? Honestly, I think fixer-uppers are rarely worth the trouble, even with kids involved.

Chances are you will be much happier divorced, sharing parenting of your children. At least you can find a stable, responsible partner who you can be happy with who will help you provide a stable home for your children when you have them.


----------



## sapientia

grux22 said:


> I don't want out
> The affair has not gotten physical
> I have confronted both of them
> They both know my view and what's at risk


Okay. So what happened after you confronted them? What conditions did you set, if any?

Sorry if you already posted this, I haven't gone through your entire thread yet.


----------



## grux22

I do want to stay married 
I knew I had a chance of this happening when I started out with her

When I confronted them the both agreed to cut the flirting **** minimize contact and to never go out alone


----------



## drifting on

grux22 said:


> Or she gets rid of him and works on us? Is that un realistic?
> I mean we have had 7 perfect years together no arguing no bickering same views and raising kids... We have over come ever thing that we have encountered together up to this point... This is the first argument-big deal etc...I know this guy opend her eyes to how we have become predictable and disconnected some... Why with work can we not achieve such a thing?




We have had 7 perfect years, did you read that, here, say it again, we have had 7 perfect years!!!!! Did she tell you this or is this your cute little wording? If you really had 7 perfect years she wouldn't have a boyfriend!!! As for embarrassing her when confronting OM, that has been the only thing you did right!! Why do you think she got embarrassed? Because she's having an affair and knows it's wrong. You should have been yelling as loud as you possibly could!!!!! Your marriage is being invaded, ACT like it and get tough with them both. Don't come back here and say if I give her space as she wants its possible she will want to work on us!! That won't happen until OM is gone!!!!!

As for her mother, tell that old bag you will not give her one inch of space. Then tell her I'll be sure to let everyone know you condone cheating!!! That will shut her up. Damnit I'm more pissed off then you are!!!!! How can that be????!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sapientia

grux22 said:


> When I confronted them the both agreed to cut the flirting **** minimize contact and to never go out alone


And now? Are they still in contact?

What is your next move, if so?


----------



## sapientia

drifting on said:


> As for embarrassing her when confronting OM, that has been the only thing you did right!! Why do you think she got embarrassed? Because she's having an affair and knows it's wrong.


Does she think her embarrassment is any less than yours? This is just selfish and you should tell her so. At counselling. She needs to own this behaviour and make her promises to disengage to someone she respects (right now this isn't you).



> You should have been yelling as loud as you possibly could!!!!!


No. This will only cause her to lose more respect. Calm and firm. No yelling. Yelling will only enable her to rationalize what a terrible spouse you are... go crying to her EA.

You're playing for keeps. You need to tell the affair partner to f-off and stay very calm with her. Air your sh!t in counselling where she can't rationalize or weasel out of her behaviour.

BTW, you will have to answer to your own behaviour in your marriage eventually. Not now, deal with the EA first, but be prepared. A good counsellor will not let you off on your own contributions to your problems over the years.

Are you going to counselling?


----------



## Nucking Futs

grux22 said:


> I have not really spoken to her today... Everything that has been discussed has come up in previous conversation...
> 
> I busted them by going up to
> Her work with the kids to leave cards that we made with arts and crafts for her saying we love her and miss her and the. Blam she wasn't at work she was on break at the local bar wit cum stain.
> 
> I get the advice all I do. Would u like me to throw the wrench in spokes now....
> 
> In high school basically same thing happend... She cheated on her one bf for the next.... The original boy agreed that she made a mistake and took her in... She couldn't stand to see him miserable and was discussted in what she did that she actually tried to commit suicide... A trip to the ER and year of therapy got her to move on.... So years later here she is again... But she has kids now
> 
> So a girl who has had a terrible child hood and moved 10 times lived with 6 different relatives has been sexually abused and tries to kill her self all before the time she is 20... Do I bail on her when I know she has the potential to be unstable - NO
> 
> Her mom and aunt went through the same thing sorta--- her mom had her when she was 15 when she was two her mom had some crazy post partum depression and broke down and doesn't remember huge pieces of time cause of the depression... It took her mom years of work with counsors to be ok...
> 
> My wife who obviously has had depression may be in some delayed post partum depression... She needs help she has been telling me this
> I need to listen to her too
> My kids need a mom now even if she has a boy friend at this point


For some reason when reading this post the first verse of this song started running through my mind.

Good luck Grux22. I hope your unicorn makes it.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

sapientia said:


> BTW, you will have to answer to your own behaviour in your marriage eventually. Not now, deal with the EA first, but be prepared. A good counsellor will not let you off on your own contributions to your problems over the years.
> 
> Are you going to counselling?


And what happens between counseling sessions....

No. Gru needs to immediately address his behavior. Understanding why this happened will help the recovery process. The same understanding (in foresight) is how relationships become affair-proof.

This doesn't mean apologizing for his behavior, as nothing of real benefit comes from that. Instead, we look at personal failings as learning moments. Either it serves to bolster this relationship or his next one.

To deal with an EA, you have to deal with the root cause. The root cause isn't a bad wife; it is the lack of a connection. Due to the physiological need for connectedness in humans, it is rather predictable that they will seek it when it is missing in their lives. Part of the recovery process is re-establishing this connection and not acting in a manner that hinders it.


----------



## sapientia

I agree in principle. In practice, however, I think his wife will latch on to the OPs issues as an excuse for her bad behaviour if raised too early.

A skilled counsellor can do both, perhaps. Personally, I would recommend a prioritization of issues, with the EA being dealt with first. That must end, definitively, before any progress on mutual issues as a couple can be addressed. Lacking THAT commitment on her part will make anything else moot. One must first put out the house fire before rebuilding the foundation.

He could do individual counselling, however, to deal with his own issues. That wouldn't be inconsistent.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

RT - interesting notion but I'm not buying all of it - I believe an EA or PA defines her as a bad wife. Does it make her a good wife? Words have meaning and we shouldn't corrupt then simply because some things in life ARE harsh. Bad, horrible betrayal of the one who you have vowed to be truthful and trustworthy toward MAKES you a bad person.

Can a bad person redeem themselves? Is a bad person ALWAYS a bad person? Yes and no, respectively.

Regardless of the reasons - even if 100% justifiable (which isn't actually possible) - an EA or PA is evil. Let's stop coddling people and be honest. People won't address their flaws unless they recognize them as such - and lying to make them feel better is actually hurting them and not helping them.

Sorry you're only the latest person to espouse this "rounded corners" world view so you shall bare the brunt of my verbal wrath 

"Man is a being who hurls himself toward a future." 

Sartre - "Man is nothing else than his plan: he exists only to the extent that he fulfills himself; he is nothing else than the ensemble if his acts, nothing else than his life."

Me - We are what we do.


----------



## sapientia

_Mortals. Everything is so black and white to you._


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

grux22 said:


> The affair has not gotten physical.
> 
> When I confronted them they both agreed to cut the flirting **** minimize contact and to never go out alone


Wow... This is going to be a painful one to watch, as it unfolds. You have to feel bad for these type of guys, and there's been so many on here lately.

Well, once he does find out/figure out, all we can do is hope that he snaps out of it as fast as possible and minimize the pain some...


----------



## aine

I don't care how screwed up her life was (my own life was pretty bad in childhood so I can relate) it does not excuse the behaviour of EA maybe PA. Yes, I agree the wounded child within a person can cause problems in adulthood but there are ways and means of dealing with it including counselling or therapy not throwing your H and kids down the toilet, she has to take responsibility and you have to let her, not keep giving excuses all the time.

You need to cut contact with her, let her be hit with the reality of what she is doing instead of enabling her. I suspect you have been enabling her bad behaviour for years and that is part of the problem. When are you going to put your foot down, take control and tell her to stop being a child and to face up to her fears and deal with them like a responsible mother of young kids. That is the best present she can give her children, instead of selfishly pursuing some OM and potentially destroying his family also. You need to grow a spine and stop making excuses for her. I know you think you will push her away more but if that is what is needed for her reality check then so be it.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Wow... This is going to be a painful one to watch, as it unfolds. You have to feel bad for these type of guys, and there's been so many on here lately.
> 
> Well, once he does find out/figure out, all we can do is hope that he snaps out of it as fast as possible and minimize the pain some...


I cant. He isnt listening. Excuse after excuse after excuse. He is going to crash and burn, and this thread is already triggering the crap out of me. I posted anyway, trying to help, trying to save someone from the same bullsh!t heartbreak that I have been through. And he isnt listening. 

I cant. Im out.


----------



## JohnA

@sapientia is offering you excellent advise. The truth is if you understand what Sapientia is saying she will continue to repeat this behavior. If not with this OM then another OM, unless the cycle is broken. Accept once broken, the reason she is with you most likely be broken. In short you are part of the cycle. 

Do what you feel you need to do, but have the divorce papers ready with a custody plan in place with you at a min primary custodian. 
Stay in the home is the greatest commandment of all. She demands space shrug and simply point her towards the door. No words necessary.


----------



## BobSimmons

grux22 said:


> If I push now before she even hears what the mc says to us together there is no chance for me


I thought there was no chance for you as it is.

Wrong thinking. And here is why you're going about it all wrong.

So she's met her soulmate, she's BS'ing about leaving you, you've done the begging but she's adamant about being with him, so the question is why isn't she with him? I mean this is her greatest love right? If this guy was available and had a place to put her up she would have been there in a heart beat. So take this guy out of the picture for a bit because basically he's a non player at this point.

She hasn't mentioned divorce because she really hasn't thought this through. There probably has been a lot of future faking going on, with this guy blowing smoke up her a**. 

So she's told you she's done. Accept it. Tell her to pack her stuff, call OM and tell him to come and pick her up she's all his. Consult a lawyer, draw up papers and hand them to her. You're not pushing, you're not begging, you're not ending anything..your wife already did that by telling you ANOTHER MAN is her soulmate!!

This guy will drop her quicker than a hot coal. So stop playing this silly game with her. The only chance you have for her to get her head out her a** is not being soft and understanding, it's* treating her like an adult and allowing the weight of her decisions to play out and have consequences.*


----------



## TaDor

grux22 said:


> I see what's going on and I want her and I want to turn this thing around
> 
> I assure u she has not gotten physical with him


Hey Grux. My wife was telling me they were "just friends" and that I was jealous and paranoid which is why she left me(us ie: our son as well).

Funny how two days later, they both move into an apartment, and she still tells me they are "just friends". They worked together too. Oh, they slept in one bed, but they are "just friends". A few days later, I catch them both naked in their apartment as they we up all night.. but they are "just friends". Next day, there is a hickey on her neck, which I pointed out. At that point, she finally stopped saying "we're just friends".

"I didn't want to tell you the truth because it would hurt you."?! WTF - running away from your problems, living with a guy and having sex with him and YOU DON'T WANT TO HURT MY FEELINGS?!

Oh, I stayed at home with the baby, so she could go out with her co-workers - go to bars, and let loose a bit. And he was a "respectful friend" for her to talk to and blah blah... sound familiar?

You hear us, but you are not listening to us.


----------



## TaDor

My wife thought she could live the good life, like a single woman who parties all the time with a bit of "mommy time" with our son. After some childish and BS games by her, like shoving her new romance in my face (and her family to some extent) on facebook and texts - I filed for full custody. My affidavit was destructive to her... more so than she thought. But it started lifting her brain out of the fog. We both need work, I do need her help to heal me - if we're going to be together.


----------



## azteca1986

grux22 said:


> They both know my view and what's at risk


Indeed. 


> I don't want out


So for them, there is no risk. 


grux22 said:


> My kids need a mom now even if she has a boy friend at this point


What do you think you're teaching your children about:

1. Self-respect
2. Manhood
3. Relationships


----------



## nursejackie

Excuse me if I already posted this- actually don't- because you need to read the sentiments again…

I was a WW. I was where your wife is now- she is in a fog of feel good chemicals, he feels like he is her soulmate because there has been no real life test-no kids up in the middle of the night, no financial problems to work through, no predictability from years together- no in-laws-everything is unicorns and roses. It isn't real. She can only keep up this fantasy when she has you in the background for stability, predictability, dependability, REAL LOVE, and someone dealing with the kids and house. She certainly is not. Her heart is not in it. Everything is overshadowed by the A. Selfishness and immaturity rule.

She needs to wake up. You need to wake her up. You MUST file for divorce or make her think you did (print off some crap that looks real from the internet- even a separation agreement) Kick her out of the house. All the comforts of her marriage need to get pulled out from under her. Call OM to come get her or have her call him. As another poster said that will wake up the OM. She needs to think she is losing it all. She needs to feel the consequences of her actions. 

I used to think how wonderful life was and how happy I felt during my A. I had everything. It is like a drug and no-one gives up that addiction without kicking and screaming. The s#it needs to hit the fan and it needs to fly right back and hit her in the face. (ewwww sorry, gross analogy) I am 99% sure this has gone physical. If she thinks he's her soulmate she won't see anything wrong with being with him physically. Don't believe her. She will not stop contact with him. She will lie and deny unless you have concrete evidence. 

You have a chance maybe -but you have to take your life by the reins. Steer it out of the ditch. You need to force her to choose a real life. A real life is either with her H and child, or her AP- she cannot think that she can have both- or have time to decide.


----------



## Chaparral

Why do you think she won't let you see her computer,texts, and phone calls??

Why do you think you just happened to catch them at a bar the only time they ever did that? If they had time to go drinking, they've figured out how to sneak out for sex.

Either get the recorders, GPS her car, and demand access to her phone or make her get out. Therapy can follow that. All you are accomplishing now is to let their bond grow stronger.


----------



## wmn1

grux22 said:


> She told me she needs space to be "myself" and that I only see us as YS
> 
> Asked me to give her some freedom to be herself with out me...
> And this is true I want to do everything with her.. She does need the freedom to go out and be herself


the 'space' line is a cheating line, period !!!

Further, 'freedom' to go out and be herself... what the he11 do you think that means, man ???? She was going out and being herself, indulging in another man. Why are you so willing to accommodate that ??

And your kids knew ? Really ?


Look, you've got three things you need to do even if it costs you your marriage

1) No contact with the other man and full transparency of all electronics and accountability for time

2) Have a nice long discussion with other man's wife and let her blow it up on her end

3) Lawyer up and be prepared for a nasty divorce if it comes to that.

Anything else, you are accepting being a cuckold to her affair and you are stepping out of the way to let her have it.

BTW, I agree with Chapp, I think this has gone physical already based on her reactions.

You can either take command or capitulate. You take command, you crush the affair, you find out the extent and decide what you want. You capitulate, then you either turn in your manhood card now or you file for divorce but ou don't sit back and tolerate an affair. Who does that ???


----------



## tech-novelist

grux22 said:


> I asked her if she wanted like an open relationship.... she said no she couldn't do that.....


*She *already has an open relationship.

*You're* the one who doesn't.


----------



## wmn1

z_man said:


> Translation: freedom to be herself (with this other man) without you interfering, asking questions, and making her feel guilty.
> 
> Actions:
> 
> * Lawyer up to understand your options and what divorce will look like for you custody/financially and to get separation/divorce papers drawn up for when you Option A/B her.
> 
> * The 180
> 
> * Expose to the OM's wife. He may throw your wife under the bus and cut all contact with her in an effort to reconcile with his wife, especially if this is not his first affair.
> 
> * Gain 24.7 access to her phone, computer, and car to monitor her activities going forward. Keylog the computer, gps the car, run data recovery and monitoring s/w for the phone.
> 
> * Do not agree to any type of separation, either you or her leaving the house.
> 
> * Read 'Not Just Friends' by Dr Shirley Glass, 'No More Mr Nice Guy' by Dr Robert Glover, and 'The Married Man Sex Life Primer' by Athol Kay, for starters.
> 
> Considerations:
> 
> * Unless your wife goes no contact with the OM, marriage counseling will not produce the results you are looking for. She is deep into the fog and the only way to clear it up (if at all) is complete separation from the OM. No texts, emails, phone calls, meetups.
> 
> * Remorse - not the same thing as guilt. Check out The Chump Lady - Real vs. Imitation Remorse to understand what you should expect from a truly remorseful cheating spouse.
> 
> * If there is a glimmer of hope your wife has any remorse, then you can Option her with A: all of the above or B: Divorce (this is where you present her with the divorce papers.
> 
> Good Luck, you are in the right place to get the help and support you need to get through this.


Zman is right in everything he says.

BTW, don't let any MC pressure you in taking the blame. That happens too often. No MC is going to be helpful now. She is in the affair


----------



## wmn1

MRR said:


> No, you need to start acting like a man.
> 
> Your head is in the sand. This guy has f**** YOUR wife.
> 
> Time to stand up for yourself.
> 
> This guy has been inside your wife-- imagine that for a moment b/c it has happened.
> 
> The question is not does she still want you, but do you still want her? The answer should be probably be a no at this point.
> 
> And MC is for two people; as long as she is in contact with another man, you should not be going to MC together. You should definitely be in contact with a lawyer though. Yesterday.
> 
> Quit trying to be mr sensitive/understanding. Very unattractive and weak to her.


very well put


----------



## wmn1

brooklynAnn said:


> Look buddy, you need to wake up. Forget your wife and what she needs. You might think you will beg, plea, explain and debate why she should stay married to you and she would turn around and choose you.
> 
> Look at every case of cheating on TAM, it does not happen that way. It takes along time for cheating spouses to see what they did wrong, if they ever do at all.
> 
> You need to figure out what you want. You want to stay married? To what a cheating, lying woman. Who has no respect for you and certainly does not love you. Because if she did, you would not be here.
> 
> Listen to yourself. Your wife found her soulmate. WTF are you?
> You are just the man she is married to and that means nothing to her.
> 
> If someone said to you, "I have found the love of my life. He gets me like no-one else. We are soulmates, join together, forever.". What do you say to that person? Good luck and get the F***out. Here is your bag.
> 
> You are making yourself weak and desperate in her eyes. Forget all the stuff you trusted her with and hope she would never do. It's all water under the bridge. Now your new reality is your WIFE IS A CHEAT LYING WHATEVER.
> 
> What you need to do, is get up off the floor. Brush yourself off and start looking out for you. You want your marriage back? Start working on you. Act like a strong man. No begging/pleading.
> 
> Pack her bag. visit a divorce lawyer and get the process started. Implement the 180. Get it from @EleGirl profile.
> 
> That is how you start getting your marriage back. Until you open her eyes to what she has to lose, you are fighting a losing game. Especially with the OM looking to get a divorce from his marriage. You can discuss all the things you trusted her with from now until the cows come home and it's going to get you nowhere. Get a grip and start watching out for you. When she recommits to the marriage, you can then start therapy and figure where things when wrong.
> 
> Now get going. Start the 180.



This !!! Very well put


----------



## wmn1

TheTruthHurts said:


> I call bs. You're behaving like a scared child. You threatened the POSOM and SHE got embarrassed and you ACCEPTED that bull*hit????
> 
> She doesn't GET to get embarrassed. You protected your family from a predictor. You should have told her it was because of HER putting the marriage in jeopardy NOT because of you protecting the marriage.
> 
> She's blame shifting and gas lighting you and you are running with your tail between your legs.
> 
> If she can't live with her infidelity and will run away unless you give her space, THATS HER WEAKNESS. Don't throw gas on that fire! When will it end? Every time she has consequences, you will have to give her space?
> 
> It doesn't mean you have to smother her - but it DOES mean you can demand 100% transparency and knowing where she is at all times and NC. That is NOT getting into "her space" it's required due to her actions to destroy the marriage.



yep, I agree with this completely


----------



## wmn1

grux22 said:


> I hear all of you and i understand what i have to do.
> 
> This is considered a midlife crisis from what i understand... she has said first and foremost that she is working on herself and she knows she is being selfish and ignoring me. She has mentioned that even with this guy out of the picture there has got to be Some 1 person better in the world for her.... her reasoning there are billions of people there has to be... then proceeds to tell me that I'm too good for her and she hasn't shown loyalty or trust and that i truly deserve a better person... this may also be true... However does that mean we cannot both work on ourself for the better of us?
> 
> Truth is she does not know what she wants, she does not know if she wants to be married have kids or live alone....
> 
> Fact is that i know this popped something in her head... and i have told her to go if she is unhappy.. i will always take good care of kids.
> She still believes that she can be happy with me for 30 years... but she will always wonder WHAT IF...
> What if she had left me for D-bag
> What if she had not even tried for us
> What if she is better off alone..
> 
> at this point All those what if's affect the life's of others MAJOR....
> You don't just say hey oh look someone better and ditch your last 8 years and everything you have... you will never be happy if you keep recycling your life. Any Hurt and suffering is not going to magically go away because of divorce paper... she will have to carry that hurt on to her next relationship, yeah it may be happy at first but her cycle from being raised in a broken family and her inability to latch on will break free again and the same thing will happen.
> 
> I'm Giving her a helping hand, I see that she may need to go have her midlife crisis and live wild and get all the answer that she magically searching for... If she needs to try this Guy i have given her the ability to do so... she said hell no! I said if you need to be alone i got the kids go and be free, she said No, If she needs time with out me i will go live with my parents and she can take care of everything.... once again NO.
> 
> She wants life to continue on... as she works this mess out in her head... she may leave me tomorrow(ihope not) but if that what she has to do im not stopping her and i have told her that.
> 
> She is to appalled with herself to even try and bang me let alone him,,, she cant even stomach the idea of some one else banging her let alone me.
> 
> I asked her if she wanted like an open relationship.... she said no she couldn't do that.....
> I will Put the foot down and Get the gears turning here.



whoa

1) She has cut you off from all contact with her electronics ????
2) You make 4x more than her and still believe she's staying to work on things for you ?
3) Never, ever talk about 'open relationship', never plant that seed. It is nasty behavior and will only furtherly influence a cheater. When you asked her that and if she would have said 'yes' what would you have done then ?

When are you just going to step out of the shadows and stop mitigating her actions and stand up for yourself ?


----------



## 225985

OP, Consider this medical analogy. Imagine your doctor told you that you have an aggressive cancer in your leg. The team of doctors gave you several options: 1) amputation (divorce now), or 2) treatment plan of chemo and radiation (follow the consensus advice offered at TAM). But there are risks with both. The amputation solves your problem but you lose a leg. Not really the outcome you want. The treatment plan could save the leg, but there will be short term very uncomfortable side effects and it might not even work. You have to decide what to do. However, you decide to do almost nothing and hope that the cancer goes away on its own. That is not realistic. The affair is the cancer (not your wife). 

You have taken on the role of white night saving the damsel in distress from the dragon. It is who you are. But to do the saving, you have to immediately set limits and boundaries and enforce them firmly. You do not let the damsel flirt, text, email or test ride the the dragon.


----------



## wmn1

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Wow... This is going to be a painful one to watch, as it unfolds. You have to feel bad for these type of guys, and there's been so many on here lately.
> 
> Well, once he does find out/figure out, all we can do is hope that he snaps out of it as fast as possible and minimize the pain some...



yes Groundpounder. Very true. He even said that he needs to be there for her and that his kids need a mom even if she has a boyfriend. he has fallen for the childhood issues argument. Grux is done. He is facing a life of cuckoldism and it's self induced


----------



## wmn1

nursejackie said:


> Excuse me if I already posted this- actually don't- because you need to read the sentiments again…
> 
> I was a WW. I was where your wife is now- she is in a fog of feel good chemicals, he feels like he is her soulmate because there has been no real life test-no kids up in the middle of the night, no financial problems to work through, no predictability from years together- no in-laws-everything is unicorns and roses. It isn't real. She can only keep up this fantasy when she has you in the background for stability, predictability, dependability, REAL LOVE, and someone dealing with the kids and house. She certainly is not. Her heart is not in it. Everything is overshadowed by the A. Selfishness and immaturity rule.
> 
> She needs to wake up. You need to wake her up. You MUST file for divorce or make her think you did (print off some crap that looks real from the internet- even a separation agreement) Kick her out of the house. All the comforts of her marriage need to get pulled out from under her. Call OM to come get her or have her call him. As another poster said that will wake up the OM. She needs to think she is losing it all. She needs to feel the consequences of her actions.
> 
> I used to think how wonderful life was and how happy I felt during my A. I had everything. It is like a drug and no-one gives up that addiction without kicking and screaming. The s#it needs to hit the fan and it needs to fly right back and hit her in the face. (ewwww sorry, gross analogy) I am 99% sure this has gone physical. If she thinks he's her soulmate she won't see anything wrong with being with him physically. Don't believe her. She will not stop contact with him. She will lie and deny unless you have concrete evidence.
> 
> You have a chance maybe -but you have to take your life by the reins. Steer it out of the ditch. You need to force her to choose a real life. A real life is either with her H and child, or her AP- she cannot think that she can have both- or have time to decide.


I agree Nursejackie. I certainly hope Grux listens to you better than he listens to the rest of us


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I thought grux22 was a rational nice guy who MIGHT be able to hear the truth.

But it's clear he won't. Too much insecurity. Too low self confidence. Too low self esteem.

I'm sorry but I'm calling an audible. Yeah I know the game has been lost for a while but I was still thinking a Hail Mary could save the game.

Absolutely, positively NOT going to happen.

The advice has been concise and the pattern is crystal clear. It's been like watching 20 chefs trying to explain how to make a peanut butter sandwich for days... and now it's almost lunch time, and the newby cook is saying "I hear you, but I'm not really sure bread is needed, and I think the peanut butter needs to be ordered anyway so we'll see about that...". ZERO intention of actually thinking about what it means to actually make the sandwich.

So now we all will watch the kids learn what it means to have low self esteem; how to get walked on; that it's ok to wait for others to decide how you should respond; that rocking the boat will get you no where - it's much better to let everyone have a piece of that birthday cake and if there's none left because you let some have seconds and thirds... well that's just fine because they really seemed to enjoy the cake. Watching others indulge is satisfaction enough.

After so many of these threads, either I am a complete ah0le or something has happened in the upbringing of men over the past 30 years that I just don't understand.

G when you told her you would support her whatever she chose I ASSUMED it was part of a strategy to get her to realize she was completely responsible for blowing up the marriage. Brilliant actually, when followed up with you laying down hard, hard boundaries with consequences. I had NO IDEA you meant she can ACTUALLY do as she pleases!


----------



## 225985

OP is scared, confused and in over his head. He has never experienced this before and is just going on his instincts and his love for his wife. He overwhelmed by talk of 180, divorce papers, MMSLP, NMMNG, VARs etc. Hopefully he will continue to post daily or every few days so that we can offer step by step help on what he needs to do. 

Grux, the VETS here (I am not one of them) have seen this type of situation play out over and over and the advice they recommend offers you the best chance to retain your wife and marriage. We implore you to continue to use the TAM resource, keep posting and be open to listening to the advice. The worse thing you can do is leave this site and post and go it alone.


----------



## TDSC60

grux22 said:


> I dunno
> I am cut from her phone computer and all forms of contact
> 
> She says they only chat twice a day... He is an Union electrician and is with his wife the rest of time.... His wife is 100% against mine... So they don't talk then to best of my knowledge
> 
> She says I act like I think they talk all the time when I do believe the reality is they talk a lot less then I think


She has to cut ALL contact with him. As long as they still talk or text or IM, the affair is still on and she is not trying to save the marriage. Respect goes both ways. By keeping him in her life, she is disrespecting you, the kids, and your marriage.

She is still choosing him over everything.

You said MIL told you to give her respect. Sorry, but she has to earn that and at the moment all she is earning is contempt.

NO CONTACT!!!!


----------



## 225985

Grux, as the first step, your wife needs to cut off all physical and electronic contact with the Other Man. This is the requirement that you will insist on. Please, please consider and do this. As someone who has felt the addiction of an early stage EA, I can personally tell you that EVERY chat feeds the addiction. She will never be able to get out of the fog and reconcile with you when she is secretly checking her phone every hour to see if the OM has sent her a text. And with each text, WOW, another shot of dopamine for her.


----------



## wmn1

TheTruthHurts said:


> I thought grux22 was a rational nice guy who MIGHT be able to hear the truth.
> 
> But it's clear he won't. Too much insecurity. Too low self confidence. Too low self esteem.
> 
> I'm sorry but I'm calling an audible. Yeah I know the game has been lost for a while but I was still thinking a Hail Mary could save the game.
> 
> Absolutely, positively NOT going to happen.
> 
> The advice has been concise and the pattern is crystal clear. It's been like watching 20 chefs trying to explain how to make a peanut butter sandwich for days... and now it's almost lunch time, and the newby cook is saying "I hear you, but I'm not really sure bread is needed, and I think the peanut butter needs to be ordered anyway so we'll see about that...". ZERO intention of actually thinking about what it means to actually make the sandwich.
> 
> So now we all will watch the kids learn what it means to have low self esteem; how to get walked on; that it's ok to wait for others to decide how you should respond; that rocking the boat will get you no where - it's much better to let everyone have a piece of that birthday cake and if there's none left because you let some have seconds and thirds... well that's just fine because they really seemed to enjoy the cake. Watching others indulge is satisfaction enough.
> 
> After so many of these threads, either I am a complete ah0le or something has happened in the upbringing of men over the past 30 years that I just don't understand.
> 
> G when you told her you would support her whatever she chose I ASSUMED it was part of a strategy to get her to realize she was completely responsible for blowing up the marriage. Brilliant actually, when followed up with you laying down hard, hard boundaries with consequences. I had NO IDEA you meant she can ACTUALLY do as she pleases!


I agree. Who is raising these people nowadays ? At some point, stand up for yourself. Fvck, it's not that hard to do. The situation may stink but don't take it lying down and don't enable it. Unreal. Hopefully Blueinbr is able to reach him and start getting him to either respond or fight


----------



## Omar174

So at this point grux doesn't believe the affair has been physical, but if it has it makes no difference to him. And basically, he is willing to let her have a boyfriend as long as she doesn't leave. 

Maybe he has a cuckold fetish.


----------



## EVG39

grux22 said:


> I hear all of you and i understand what i have to do.
> 
> This is considered a midlife crisis from what i understand... she has said first and foremost that she is working on herself and she knows she is being selfish and ignoring me. *She has mentioned that even with this guy out of the picture there has got to be Some 1 person better in the world for her..*.. her reasoning there are billions of people there has to be...
> 
> Wow, wow, wow.
> 
> She said that to you and you still have any doubt about what you need do?
> She told you that even with this guy out of the picture there has to be someone better for her than you her husband?!!
> Friend, the level of disrespect this self entitled princess has for you is absolutely jaw dropping. She is telling you that she is looking to "trade up" and told you that flat to your face And you just stood there and took that?
> I am at loss for words.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@grux22 You need to get the book Codependency No More stat.... You are codependent and this will not survive without that awareness and therapy for it.


----------



## MRR

grux22 said:


> I hear all of you and i understand what i have to do.
> 
> This is considered a midlife crisis from what i understand... she has said first and foremost that she is working on herself and she knows she is being selfish and ignoring me. She has mentioned that even with this guy out of the picture there has got to be Some 1 person better in the world for her.... her reasoning there are billions of people there has to be... then proceeds to tell me that I'm too good for her and she hasn't shown loyalty or trust and that i truly deserve a better person... this may also be true... However does that mean we cannot both work on ourself for the better of us?
> 
> Truth is she does not know what she wants, she does not know if she wants to be married have kids or live alone....
> 
> Fact is that i know this popped something in her head... and i have told her to go if she is unhappy.. i will always take good care of kids.
> She still believes that she can be happy with me for 30 years... but she will always wonder WHAT IF...
> What if she had left me for D-bag
> What if she had not even tried for us
> What if she is better off alone..
> 
> at this point All those what if's affect the life's of others MAJOR....
> You don't just say hey oh look someone better and ditch your last 8 years and everything you have... you will never be happy if you keep recycling your life. Any Hurt and suffering is not going to magically go away because of divorce paper... she will have to carry that hurt on to her next relationship, yeah it may be happy at first but her cycle from being raised in a broken family and her inability to latch on will break free again and the same thing will happen.
> 
> I'm Giving her a helping hand, I see that she may need to go have her midlife crisis and live wild and get all the answer that she magically searching for... If she needs to try this Guy i have given her the ability to do so... she said hell no! I said if you need to be alone i got the kids go and be free, she said No, If she needs time with out me i will go live with my parents and she can take care of everything.... once again NO.
> 
> She wants life to continue on... as she works this mess out in her head... she may leave me tomorrow(ihope not) but if that what she has to do im not stopping her and i have told her that.
> 
> She is to appalled with herself to even try and bang me let alone him,,, she cant even stomach the idea of some one else banging her let alone me.
> 
> I asked her if she wanted like an open relationship.... she said no she couldn't do that.....
> I will Put the foot down and Get the gears turning here.


dude....

WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO HER? 

she is talking you in circles. dont talk to her. get it?


----------



## MRR

Grux-- have you talked to a lawyer yet?


----------



## wmn1

Blossom Leigh said:


> @grux22 You need to get the book Codependency No More stat.... You are codependent and this will not survive without that awareness and therapy for it.


agreed Blossom


----------



## Imnobodynew

Grux22 
I wrote this up on SI for someone else in a simlar sitaution to you. You were on my mind. 

GRU,
Hello sir. My heart goes out to you. I would like to add a disclaimer: The last time I posted (only once or twice) The person never came back .

I hope my words come across as care, and not as 2x4's. I would like to start with a parable/story if I may. NS please humor me a moment. Just a moment.

A long time ago a young boy passed a candy display in a grocery store. On that display he saw a a robot shaped chocolate he couldn't take his eyes off. He couldn't understand why he wanted it so badly, but reason aside, he wanted it. The boy excited with his find, turned to his father and asked if he could have it. The father bent down and said "Sure, let me buy it now, but you cannot have it till after you finished your promised chore tonight" The son replied of course. When they arrived at home. The son saw the father had placed the robot on the table. He couldn't take his eyes off it.. and as much as he tried to resist, without finishing his promised choir, he ate the Robot. His father walked by and noticed immediately that the robot was missing. "Son" he called out, "did you finish your chore?" The son, not wanting to hurt his father "Said of course dad!" The father turned to him and smiled sadly, took a breath and said "That hurt son. Why lie? You could have just said that you gave in to your temptation and apologized. I can understand that", he continued "Your young and we make mistakes but to lie it to willingly cut someone. Now you have broken a promise and cut me." The little boy started to cry, between his tears he sobbed "But I didn't want to make you angry at me!" "No son, I am not angry at you, I am hurt you didn't trust me. Almost like you hate me ." The Son started to bawl now and didn't quite understand. So the Father further discussed his concern for his son and disciplined him (spanking, corner, your choice lol.) The next day the father picked up the son from school. When they arrived home the father showed the son another Robot chocolate! The son's eyes lit up! For me?! The father said "Who else would I buy it for. You can have it after you get your chore finished first." The boys eyes lit up and he was beaming with happiness. The father set the robot on the table. "This time I would like you to clean the boxes in the garage as well, ok?." The running off exclaims "Yes dad!" After completing the prescribed chore, he waltzes to the table...only to find the robot was gone! "Dad!" he cries out again "Dad!" "Its gone!The robot is gone!" He turns to the father who is looking hard at the child "Son, what would you feel if i told you that i ate it by myself when you were cleaning the boxes?" The boy's bottom lip trembles, and tears gather at his edges of his eyes. "That would make me very sad." the boy replies. The Father says well that is how I felt like you treated me last night" The Father paused got down to the boys eye level and continued "I wont lie to you, here is the robot." The boy pressed his into his father's shoulder and understood....

I am describing my relation with my son, who is now 16. People tell me how lucky I am, how thoughtful he is, etc.. I only smile, because it took so much work. Love is work not only a feeling, but work. Feelings are only a shallow part of love. emotions changes daily.. up and down, but love? Its about sacrifice, sweat, and equity.. I highlighted my relationship with my son to show a point of what love looks like sometimes. I was hurting to see him in that state, but he needed to understand that he cannot treat others that way, well because he doesn't want to be treated that way. The problem is many parents hate to go through, all the way through and not quite because of how they "feel" themselves. The result? Kids do not understand love at all, they understand a sense of entitlement and feel good emotions which leads to the excitement of entitlement but not the hard work of love. Of course this is all observations and generalizations on my part 

I work on the streets and the local county jail. I work with Gangsters, prostitutes, wayward husbands , cheating wives, junkies, drunks, Sex offenders you name it. You want to know what the common theme is in all of these lifestyles? They sell their pride, dignity, their honor etc.. for what makes them feel good at the moment. I am not judging them. I know there are different and valid reasons for these broken personalities and dysfunctional personality traits to surface. I have had many of my own (its been a long spiritual journey {thank God} and hard self reflection) that has surfaced from my family's abusive and selfish nature.

Here is the point I would like to make from all this. People act out there programming. No can change them, unless they want to change. Trying to nice them to change will not work. Trying to fight them to change doesn't work. Beg, plead, override, gift, kiss, leverage.. nope, not, nilch, notta, doesn't work. It just feeds their self righteousness, which in turns feed their egos (<----very important) but increases ones insecurity. This increases the very destructive behavior the betrayed spouse (in this case) is trying to avoid.

Here is a better way, from my experience of course, for someone wanting to gain redress and return some confidence to a marriage. * please note- I am not telling you what to do, it is up to you to hear this or not. 
First- Understand the situation. This is not a lapse in judgment, a single event, a hiccup, this is a serious problem or character flaw of your wife. Your wife through her recent actions, shows that there is a serious issue. It is the same through additions etc.. if this was a hiccup or something of that sort and she had proper boundaries and made a terrible mistake, she would be back with you understanding what a terrible mistake she made, even if she realizes she cannot continue a relationship with you. Her priorities would be to establish positive boundaries for your sake (the hurt one) and her family. Well it didn't happen...

Second- Please read through the posts you have written. Gotta ask Yourself are you becoming slowly addicted to filling this hole in your ego, which in turns feeds your own insecurities? If so this grows into a codependent relation. Co-dependency is the killer of real love. It kills any chance at reconciliation as well as delaying you enjoying a healed healthy life again.

Third -By trying to fill this gap in our ego we are showing the spouse how we want to be treated. But I make the excuse "Someone is in need? Shouldn't I turn the other cheek?" If that is really the intent.. but most of the time, that is a lie we tell ourselves. What we are really trying to do is fill our wounded ego thus the advice for 180.

Fourth- GRU. You cannot help her heal if your emotionally still rattled. Its easier to do when your in a stable place, which is why people are worried bout you. There has to be some kind of ah ha moment where you come to life. Your boundaries start to form . Healthy lines you cannot cross. Lines you can pass forward to your kids... Ethical lines, moral line, treating others how you want to be treated. When these are established you can say "Well. I can act like a husband when you start acting like a wife." as well as " I can be a healthy friend when you are willing to be a healthy friend." This comes from an understanding that there is only a CO-parenting relationship atm. Otherwise you are really just delaying the inevitable. This looks like 2 adult kids throwing tantrums and manipulating not getting their way...

Finally - Once you are on this path of self awareness of your new self and these lines are place, You will know more of what YOU want. ITs no longer impulses wanting to be filled, all about me attitude. but of secure loving life attitude. You can then set healthy boundaries if that new life includes her, or not. She can adhere to these new priorities or not. You will be moving on. THink of your kids, think of others.

Btw- I do want to point out out "Time to play out in this marriage" statement you made. Unless a marriage includes this other dude or future dudes in your bed with you.. then she redefined that not you.. There is no more marriage. Until you can accept that, you cannot change. Your marriage has to be redefined and re-birthed. Unless you both change and rebirth into this new life, there is no new marriage or relationship. IT may happen if you both can reach that point. It will not happen if either of you mature to that point. It might happen if one reaches that point and the other follows suite. It cannot happen until you reach that point.. so i humbly suggest it might be in your best interest get there because you need to .. and for no other reason. Not for her, but for you.

God's peace be with you friend. Forgive me if I have over stepped myself. 
*forgive the typos, grammar, spelling, etc.. I've been up all night had a rough one myself


----------



## TaDor

Omar174 said:


> So at this point grux doesn't believe the affair has been physical, but if it has it makes no difference to him. And basically, he is willing to let her have a boyfriend as long as she doesn't leave.
> 
> Maybe he has a cuckold fetish.


No, its not CUCKOLD - if that was the case, then HE wouldn't be complaining. He would be getting OFF on her having sex with other guys. He would be wanting her to have sex with others guys and usually want her to tell him about all the NASTY hard core sex she had with the other guy that he only gets to hear about or at best - gets to watch.

Nope, he's just making this a non-consenting cheating "open" marriage. nothing more.


----------



## tech-novelist

TaDor said:


> No, its not CUCKOLD - if that was the case, then HE wouldn't be complaining. He would be getting OFF on her having sex with other guys. He would be wanting her to have sex with others guys and usually want her to tell him about all the NASTY hard core sex she had with the other guy that he only gets to hear about or at best - gets to watch.
> 
> Nope, he's just making this a non-consenting cheating "open" marriage. nothing more.


It actually sounds more like a variety of masochism to me.


----------



## Be smart

Sorry you are here my friend.

Your wife is playing with you,trust me on this one. Hell even her mother,your mother in law is suporting her with cheating.

She only sees you as her Plan B because Posom is not ready to give up on his own wife. You earn 4 times more then her - so you are someone who is going to pay for kids and house. Also you babysit while she goes out with him and you even pushed her to do it !!!

You said you want to work on this marrige,but you can do that when she is in contact with him. She even asks for his opinions about what to do !

About her not having sex with you - she is doing it becasue she dont want to cheat on her loverboy,in other words she is saving herself for him.

If you really love your kids my friend,then you should talk with your lawyer and see your custody rights. I belive you want to see them grow up,right ?

There is nothing to save. Cant you hear her own words ? She never respected you and never saw you as her sole mate or equal partner and she will never do it !!!

You should go out with Posoms wife and have a nice evening and see some play with her.

Stay strong


----------



## Omar174

TaDor said:


> No, its not CUCKOLD - if that was the case, then HE wouldn't be complaining. He would be getting OFF on her having sex with other guys. He would be wanting her to have sex with others guys and usually want her to tell him about all the NASTY hard core sex she had with the other guy that he only gets to hear about or at best - gets to watch.
> 
> Nope, he's just making this a non-consenting cheating "open" marriage. nothing more.


I said MAYBE. 

Maybe he comes on here and complains, but in reality he is enjoying it. 

I just can't imagine someone accepting his wife's behavior. And yes, at some point in this thread he said that it doesn't matter to him if she banged AND kept the AP as a boyfriend.


----------



## wmn1

Imnobodynew said:


> Grux22
> I wrote this up on SI for someone else in a simlar sitaution to you. You were on my mind.
> 
> GRU,
> Hello sir. My heart goes out to you. I would like to add a disclaimer: The last time I posted (only once or twice) The person never came back .
> 
> I hope my words come across as care, and not as 2x4's. I would like to start with a parable/story if I may. NS please humor me a moment. Just a moment.
> 
> A long time ago a young boy passed a candy display in a grocery store. On that display he saw a a robot shaped chocolate he couldn't take his eyes off. He couldn't understand why he wanted it so badly, but reason aside, he wanted it. The boy excited with his find, turned to his father and asked if he could have it. The father bent down and said "Sure, let me buy it now, but you cannot have it till after you finished your promised chore tonight" The son replied of course. When they arrived at home. The son saw the father had placed the robot on the table. He couldn't take his eyes off it.. and as much as he tried to resist, without finishing his promised choir, he ate the Robot. His father walked by and noticed immediately that the robot was missing. "Son" he called out, "did you finish your chore?" The son, not wanting to hurt his father "Said of course dad!" The father turned to him and smiled sadly, took a breath and said "That hurt son. Why lie? You could have just said that you gave in to your temptation and apologized. I can understand that", he continued "Your young and we make mistakes but to lie it to willingly cut someone. Now you have broken a promise and cut me." The little boy started to cry, between his tears he sobbed "But I didn't want to make you angry at me!" "No son, I am not angry at you, I am hurt you didn't trust me. Almost like you hate me ." The Son started to bawl now and didn't quite understand. So the Father further discussed his concern for his son and disciplined him (spanking, corner, your choice lol.) The next day the father picked up the son from school. When they arrived home the father showed the son another Robot chocolate! The son's eyes lit up! For me?! The father said "Who else would I buy it for. You can have it after you get your chore finished first." The boys eyes lit up and he was beaming with happiness. The father set the robot on the table. "This time I would like you to clean the boxes in the garage as well, ok?." The running off exclaims "Yes dad!" After completing the prescribed chore, he waltzes to the table...only to find the robot was gone! "Dad!" he cries out again "Dad!" "Its gone!The robot is gone!" He turns to the father who is looking hard at the child "Son, what would you feel if i told you that i ate it by myself when you were cleaning the boxes?" The boy's bottom lip trembles, and tears gather at his edges of his eyes. "That would make me very sad." the boy replies. The Father says well that is how I felt like you treated me last night" The Father paused got down to the boys eye level and continued "I wont lie to you, here is the robot." The boy pressed his into his father's shoulder and understood....
> 
> I am describing my relation with my son, who is now 16. People tell me how lucky I am, how thoughtful he is, etc.. I only smile, because it took so much work. Love is work not only a feeling, but work. Feelings are only a shallow part of love. emotions changes daily.. up and down, but love? Its about sacrifice, sweat, and equity.. I highlighted my relationship with my son to show a point of what love looks like sometimes. I was hurting to see him in that state, but he needed to understand that he cannot treat others that way, well because he doesn't want to be treated that way. The problem is many parents hate to go through, all the way through and not quite because of how they "feel" themselves. The result? Kids do not understand love at all, they understand a sense of entitlement and feel good emotions which leads to the excitement of entitlement but not the hard work of love. Of course this is all observations and generalizations on my part
> 
> I work on the streets and the local county jail. I work with Gangsters, prostitutes, wayward husbands , cheating wives, junkies, drunks, Sex offenders you name it. You want to know what the common theme is in all of these lifestyles? They sell their pride, dignity, their honor etc.. for what makes them feel good at the moment. I am not judging them. I know there are different and valid reasons for these broken personalities and dysfunctional personality traits to surface. I have had many of my own (its been a long spiritual journey {thank God} and hard self reflection) that has surfaced from my family's abusive and selfish nature.
> 
> Here is the point I would like to make from all this. People act out there programming. No can change them, unless they want to change. Trying to nice them to change will not work. Trying to fight them to change doesn't work. Beg, plead, override, gift, kiss, leverage.. nope, not, nilch, notta, doesn't work. It just feeds their self righteousness, which in turns feed their egos (<----very important) but increases ones insecurity. This increases the very destructive behavior the betrayed spouse (in this case) is trying to avoid.
> 
> Here is a better way, from my experience of course, for someone wanting to gain redress and return some confidence to a marriage. * please note- I am not telling you what to do, it is up to you to hear this or not.
> First- Understand the situation. This is not a lapse in judgment, a single event, a hiccup, this is a serious problem or character flaw of your wife. Your wife through her recent actions, shows that there is a serious issue. It is the same through additions etc.. if this was a hiccup or something of that sort and she had proper boundaries and made a terrible mistake, she would be back with you understanding what a terrible mistake she made, even if she realizes she cannot continue a relationship with you. Her priorities would be to establish positive boundaries for your sake (the hurt one) and her family. Well it didn't happen...
> 
> Second- Please read through the posts you have written. Gotta ask Yourself are you becoming slowly addicted to filling this hole in your ego, which in turns feeds your own insecurities? If so this grows into a codependent relation. Co-dependency is the killer of real love. It kills any chance at reconciliation as well as delaying you enjoying a healed healthy life again.
> 
> Third -By trying to fill this gap in our ego we are showing the spouse how we want to be treated. But I make the excuse "Someone is in need? Shouldn't I turn the other cheek?" If that is really the intent.. but most of the time, that is a lie we tell ourselves. What we are really trying to do is fill our wounded ego thus the advice for 180.
> 
> Fourth- GRU. You cannot help her heal if your emotionally still rattled. Its easier to do when your in a stable place, which is why people are worried bout you. There has to be some kind of ah ha moment where you come to life. Your boundaries start to form . Healthy lines you cannot cross. Lines you can pass forward to your kids... Ethical lines, moral line, treating others how you want to be treated. When these are established you can say "Well. I can act like a husband when you start acting like a wife." as well as " I can be a healthy friend when you are willing to be a healthy friend." This comes from an understanding that there is only a CO-parenting relationship atm. Otherwise you are really just delaying the inevitable. This looks like 2 adult kids throwing tantrums and manipulating not getting their way...
> 
> Finally - Once you are on this path of self awareness of your new self and these lines are place, You will know more of what YOU want. ITs no longer impulses wanting to be filled, all about me attitude. but of secure loving life attitude. You can then set healthy boundaries if that new life includes her, or not. She can adhere to these new priorities or not. You will be moving on. THink of your kids, think of others.
> 
> Btw- I do want to point out out "Time to play out in this marriage" statement you made. Unless a marriage includes this other dude or future dudes in your bed with you.. then she redefined that not you.. There is no more marriage. Until you can accept that, you cannot change. Your marriage has to be redefined and re-birthed. Unless you both change and rebirth into this new life, there is no new marriage or relationship. IT may happen if you both can reach that point. It will not happen if either of you mature to that point. It might happen if one reaches that point and the other follows suite. It cannot happen until you reach that point.. so i humbly suggest it might be in your best interest get there because you need to .. and for no other reason. Not for her, but for you.
> 
> God's peace be with you friend. Forgive me if I have over stepped myself.
> *forgive the typos, grammar, spelling, etc.. I've been up all night had a rough one myself



very well put Imnobodynew. Time consuming but very well worth it. Made a lot of sense


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## grux22

So thanks for all the advise... the Wife went to MC last night and came home with some new views...

As we stand rite now.. Her EA and her are only to talk about club issues and has agreed to be completely open with me with all their conversations.
We still have lots to work out

She wants to repair our relationship and hopes to be romantic with me again. She does want to overcome our trust issues and is reading a couple books with me on how to communicate better,Dissconnect and reconnect better. we are tying to rebuild trust- It is along road ahead.

Furthermore I should also mention that her EA Is back together with his wife after running away to California for 5 days.. They have Each have Multiple Therapy sessions from what i understand and this weekend is going to be their first session in MC to see if they can come to some resolve in their own marriage. He is expecting his MC to recommend them cutting contact too... they have talked about this and agreed to club issues only

On another note the biggest thing my wife mentioned to me is that this guy sees her for her--- He doesn't focus on her as a mom or our family issues but is mostly concerned about HER as an individual. And apparently i lack this because everything with us is intertwined between being a family..and US and the Kids. How do i see her for her individual in her eyes and not about what or who she is associated with?
This also concerned her alot because if she would ever somehow end up with him, would he even care about the kids? He knows they would be a package deal and always had a dream of going to Disney with Kids.... However She also knows that this guy is 36 and doesn't quite think he understands the gravity and work it takes to raise kids.I mean a Dream of kids at Disney sounds great-I can picture it in my head, but does he see two screaming toddlers that wont sleep... who get up in the night and destroy the kitchen making cereal... who seem to find every Marker in the house and mark up at least one surface of every wall in the house.... is this guy in dream world? He likes to dip out at a moments notice and go where ever and do what ever he wants. This is a Turn off for my wife. He does seem to have said all the rite things to her at the right time tho.

She also mention that How Could she fall so madly in love with me and love me then someone Who touches the same as i once did come along and totally Suck her heart to him?This also scares her cause she is worried that no matter what-Me-Him-life- how can people who connect with you just fall into your life and suck your heart to a different person... She knows this could happen anytime. Is putting a good foot forward into working on our issues and really wants us to be us again.. The remorse is there feel it when she detaches and switches it to anger or guilt towards me.



Thanks all for all the comments and advice... I have Used lots of them so far... and have lots in my pocket


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## DoneWithHurting

"Her EA and her are only to talk about club issues and has agreed to be completely open with me with all their conversations."

Jeez. 
Give me a freakin break!
Just put your foot down already and get rid of this guy.
No if's ands or buts.
He has to go completely.


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## grux22

He will be gone
or I will be gone


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## Marc878

grux22 said:


> He will be gone
> or I will be gone


I'm glad you seem to be coming around. 

Make NO MISTAKE!!!!!! If he stays connected in any way you will get replaced.

I do hope you understand that. The affair isn't over until he's gone permantley!!!!!!!


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## jsmart

grux22 said:


> So thanks for all the advise... the Wife went to MC last night and came home with some new views...
> 
> As we stand rite now.. *Her EA and her are only to talk about club issues and has agreed to be completely open with me with all their conversations.*
> We still have lots to work out
> 
> She wants to repair our relationship and hopes to be romantic with me again. She does want to overcome our trust issues and is reading a couple books with me on how to communicate better,Dissconnect and reconnect better. we are tying to rebuild trust- It is along road ahead.
> 
> Furthermore I should also mention that her EA Is back together with his wife after running away to California for 5 days.. They have Each have Multiple Therapy sessions from what i understand and this weekend is going to be their first session in MC to see if they can come to some resolve in their own marriage. He is expecting his MC to recommend them cutting contact too... they have talked about this and agreed to club issues only
> 
> On another note the biggest thing *my wife mentioned to me is that this guy sees her for her--- He doesn't focus on her as a mom or our family issues but is mostly concerned about HER as an individual.* And apparently i lack this because everything with us is intertwined between being a family..and US and the Kids. How do i see her for her individual in her eyes and not about what or who she is associated with?
> This also concerned her alot because *if she would ever somehow end up with him, would he even care about the kids?* He knows they would be a package deal and always had a dream of going to Disney with Kids.... However She also knows that this guy is 36 and doesn't quite think he understands the gravity and work it takes to raise kids.I mean a Dream of kids at Disney sounds great-I can picture it in my head, but does he see two screaming toddlers that wont sleep... who get up in the night and destroy the kitchen making cereal... who seem to find every Marker in the house and mark up at least one surface of every wall in the house.... is this guy in dream world? He likes to dip out at a moments notice and go where ever and do what ever he wants. This is a Turn off for my wife. He does seem to have said all the rite things to her at the right time tho.
> 
> She also mention that How Could she fall so madly in love with me and love me then someone Who touches the same as i once did come along and totally Suck her heart to him?This also scares her cause she is worried that no matter what-Me-Him-life- how can people who connect with you just fall into your life and suck your heart to a different person... She knows this could happen anytime. Is putting a good foot forward into working on our issues and really wants us to be us again.. The remorse is there feel it when she detaches and switches it to anger or guilt towards me.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks all for all the comments and advice... I have Used lots of them so far... and have lots in my pocket


Of course he's not concerned about family & home issues. It's not his family he's destroying or home he's breaking. He's focusing like a laser on her married mother vag. It's understandable that a fogged up adulteress woman would not understand this but for you to question your husbanding is ridiculous.

This guy is not looking to take her on with your kids. He is just a fogged up fool drunk on your wife's vag but when it comes crunch time very few men are going to leave their marriage and kids to be with an adulteress woman with her ex's kids. 

HE MUST BE OUT OF PICTURE COMPLETELY. You're just going to be spinning your tires in this R as long as she is ANY TYPE of contact. By allowing this "club" you're showing weakness. Put your foot down. The family or this club.


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## Marc878

she's looking for a way to stay connected. Is that club worth your marriage, future?????

Cheaters lie, hide and deny with every breath. 

MC with him in the mix is a waste of time and money.

This is your family, life and future. You have every right to protect it.


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## TheTruthHurts

I'm glad she's honest about replacing you on a whim. That should tell you all you need to know.


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## TheTruthHurts

To be clear: it says you have very low self esteem and are not s leader in your marriage. Until you address these weaknesses any and all relationships you find yourself in will be rocky


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## 225985

grux22 said:


> *Her EA and her are only to talk about club issues* and has agreed to be completely open with me with all their conversations.
> 
> She also mention that How Could she fall so madly in love with me and love me then someone Who touches the same as i once did come along and totally Suck her heart to him?This also scares her cause she is worried that no matter what-Me-Him-life- how can people who connect with you just fall into your life and suck your heart to a different person... *She knows this could happen anytime. *Is putting a good foot forward into working on our issues and really wants us to be us again.. The remorse is there feel it when she detaches and switches it to anger or guilt towards me.





grux22 said:


> He will be gone
> or I will be gone


Grux, OM is not gone (so that means you are gone, right?). Unless this club is working to cure cancer, there is no way in hell that the two should be talking.

It is unbelievable that SIX people (you, wife, OM, his wife, two therapists) all think that the continued talking is ok. Listen to what your wife said : "this could happen anytime." Oh, but she is going to be completely open with you about the discussion. Right!!

I tried to wean myself from my early EA attraction doing the single topic (like the club talk) talking that your wife and OM are doing. With me, the "innocent" talking and texting soon lead back to lunches (just us) and bar hopping downtown (just us). I knew what I was doing but could not stop until all contact stopped. Mine was just an early stage EA, nowhere near the depth of feelings that your wife has for OM. 

What is it about this club that it is worth losing your wife over?

Remember this website, because if wife and OM keep talking you will be back here in 6-12 months posting in the Separation or Divorce forum.

I wish you the best during this very difficult time.


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## MRR

As long as she knows you are waiting around to see if she will pick you or him she is going to continue to see you as weak and she will not respect you. You must make it clear that it is YOUR choice and one of the real options for you is to move on, and soon. She knows you have no one else and will sit around and put up with her waffling-- which is not really waffling, as all this 'talk' is just to appease you and keep you as a fall back option.


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## bandit.45

She is never going to reconnect with you as long as her OM is still in contact with her. 

You arent listening to one damn thing anyone has told you. Well, it's your funeral....


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## TDSC60

As has been said many times before.

You will never heal your marriage nor will the affair be over as long as she is still associated in any way with the "club". Not only does contact with OM have to stop, looking at the club website, going to club meetings, communication with any club member all have to stop and stay stopped. If she cannot give all this up, you may as well file the divorce. The affair is not over unless she can get him and anything associated with him out of her mind and concentrate on your marriage and family.


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## grux22

We have some grudges we have to settle--- when we settle those i am gonna let go of what she wants and she is gonna let go of what i want(om)
We are working on a way to do amicably


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## 225985

Grux, did your wife explain why she wants to stay in this club? You must have asked her not to talk to OM What did she say?


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## bandit.45

grux22 said:


> We have some grudges we have to settle--- when we settle those i am gonna let go of what she wants and she is gonna let go of what i want(om)
> We are working on a way to do amicably


Except the one big grudge...the other man. You're going to let her hang on to that one. 

It's not going to work amigo.


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## Lots to Learn

bandit.45 said:


> Except the one big grudge...the other man. You're going to let her hang on to that one.
> 
> It's not going to work amigo.


This!! This can and never will work whilst she is in this club with this guy. NC or bust. I'm not sure how you have rationalized this but think this through. It's not okay, they are like drug addicts. Why is it ok with you for her to still see this man? Do you not see the peril in this? You are being gaslighted my friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

Grux 

Ok, imagine I'm your best friend, I come to you and tell you this story. I tell you I want my marriage, I defend my wife at every turn, I even allow my wife to remain in contact with her EA OM. They are only to talk about club issues, it how many issues are there? After they complete the club issues, do they go their separate ways? Are you sure their is no conversation like, hope you are ok, sorry for making your marriage worse, or so what has your MC suggested? 

It won't only be club issues, you and I both know this. And, this is one I'd really like the answer to, but what MC would tell her to stay in contact with her OM? You know she asked, you know the answer she got, you know the answer OM will get. So they can talk about club issues, override both MC's, both BS's and you would let this happen? 

A decision needs to be made, you know what hers is remain in contact, yours should be no contact regardless of any grudge. No, wait, you are right, I wasn't thinking like you!! You take her to the club, you sit with them while they discuss the club issues. When they are done you get up, take your wife by the hand and go home. Just for giggles tell your wife this is the only way contact be had. Just see what she says when she argues for days bout you not being there. Then think to yourself, why doesn't she want me there??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

grux22 said:


> We have some grudges we have to settle--- when we settle those i am gonna let go of what she wants and *she is gonna let go of what i want(om)*
> We are working on a way to do amicably


You're going to try and bargain the OM out of the picture... Really!

She's having an EA with him(Btw, the "A" stands for affair).

You're going to try to bargain her into giving up her affair partner? Think about that for a minute...

Good luck with that pal. See you in a few months when you come across lingerie hidden at the bottom of a draw, that you've never seen her wear before.

Get ready 'cause it's coming...


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## eric1

Grux,

If your wife was having a workplace affair making 300k a year she'd need to quit it if he lover was at the same place

This is probably a physical affair, definitely an emotional and she not only wont quit but still gets to carry on her affair under the guise of club business?

And you STILL have to horse trade a 'grudge' for her to stop an extramarital relationship?

You need to understand this isn't a negotiation. A healthy marriage certainly can negotiate most things. This isn't most things , THIS IS THE MARRIAGE ITSELF.

She doesn't get to talk to him again.
She doesn't get to plan with him how to go underground
She doesn't get closure 

She doesn't talk to him again. Period. 

If she's more interested in him than your feelings then you need to walk away. It's not even a marriage counsellor thing. It's a 'this is me standing up for me' thing


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## itbeme

I looked at my husband tonight and asked him If I told you I have met my Soulmate, How would you respond? First he said Ya trying to tell me something? Then it was see ya have a good life. I did explain why I asked and we discussed the thread. A persons life is what they make it with the ups and downs, your soulmate is the one that goes through the ups and downs along with you. Hold each other up when needed and glide on as you can and Love one another as you grow together.


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## sparrow555

:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## ConanHub

sparrow555 said:


> :banghead::banghead::banghead:


It is easier to laugh in all honesty!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor

@grux22 : I'm in an early stage of repairing my relationship with my woman. It was both EA and PA (ie: full blown sex in anyway you can imagine). She still has emotional attachment that needs to go away. 
So far, no actual contact. But the emotional part needs to be taken care off.

Your wife MUST quit the club. I forgot or did you post what kind of club it is? If its a gym-club, she needs to go to another location or gym company. NO VISUAL of VOCAL or electronic contact.

Oh, your wife TOLD you the same thing all WW say. _*"He talks about me. Its just me and him - and it feels good, like we are special"*_ - the Affair Fog. Except I didn't need TAM to tell me "What a load of crap! Of course it seems like fun! Because HE's NOT the father of YOUR son. He doesn't have to pay our bills, change diapers, pay car insurance or anything else in the real world. So with me, its like: "HONEY! I have two cars, I pay the bills and have RESPONSIBILITIES! So your relationship is a fantasy. Its drinking, doing fun stuff and sex." Never-mind they quickly ran out of money and were close to losing their job and place to live.

Of course affairs are FUN and magical. As posted somewhere here, maybe a sticky if not articles. They two people having the affair are at their behavior with each other. They spend a limited time acting like high-school student. Sneaking kisses and sex. The REAL world isn't involved. (Affair bubble) Hence, best way to burst that bubble is bringing it out into the open. Family, friends, place of employment (85% of affairs Start at the workplace). The cheaters are out, they are usually kicked/leave home. They lose the respect from their friends, their family and their children. They lose their jobs.

So yeah, that is WHY her OM seems to get her. They aren't talking about YOUR KIDS, YOUR BILLS, school, work, car-repairs, dental appointments and all that BORING crap that people in long-term loving relationships HAVE to do in order to take care of the family unit.


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## manfromlamancha

Lets be clear here - this is an internet based "adventure club". Not sure what kind of adventures but I can only imagine that it would also attract a few whackos!

I am pretty sure the two of you can do without this "club".


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## IIJokerII

grux22 said:


> So thanks for all the advise... the Wife went to MC last night and came home with some new views...
> 
> As we stand rite now.. Her EA and her are only to talk about club issues and has agreed to be completely open with me with all their conversations.
> We still have lots to work out
> 
> ( This is your first and biggest mistake regarding the repair of your marriage.. Would you store Gas on top of a wood stove?... Have a meth dealer work with a recovering addict? Need I go on. If they are still talking to each other then the chances are nearly infallible that they will, if not already, reconnect. It is and will be just a matter of time. She must have total zero contact and any attempts on her part to remain in contact with him is a guise, a well camouflaged ideal of keeping him in her life. Sure, you may get some open book viewing of their conversations but do you know for sure that these are truthful conversations or all of them. Disinformation is a common regular action used by cheaters. Trust nothing, believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see.)
> 
> She wants to repair our relationship and hopes to be romantic with me again. She does want to overcome our trust issues and is reading a couple books with me on how to communicate better,Dissconnect and reconnect better. we are tying to rebuild trust- It is along road ahead.
> 
> ( Although this sounds good, I don't buy it and for now neither should you. The books not only provide a prop of a perceivable satisfaction for you but also a blueprint on how to play you like a flute. And she needs to overcome your trust issues, she has no room to dictate any trust issues regarding you. Try to remember who cheated who here. I never saw a rape victim ask the rapist for being forgiven for being assaulted)
> 
> Furthermore I should also mention that her EA Is back together with his wife after running away to California for 5 days.. They have Each have Multiple Therapy sessions from what i understand and this weekend is going to be their first session in MC to see if they can come to some resolve in their own marriage. He is expecting his MC to recommend them cutting contact too... they have talked about this and agreed to club issues only
> 
> ( Your focus with him should be zero, nothing, he should be gone and you must except nothingless than this. Your wife telling you about his daily lifestyle is beyond the club related boundary she claimed to adhere and is a personal, A.K.A. intimate, part of his life. That kind of information is what you share with loved ones or good friends)
> 
> 
> On another note the biggest thing my wife mentioned to me is that this guy sees her for her--- He doesn't focus on her as a mom or our family issues but is mostly concerned about HER as an individual. And apparently i lack this because everything with us is intertwined between being a family..and US and the Kids. How do i see her for her individual in her eyes and not about what or who she is associated with?
> 
> ( Ahem, this whole paragraph is littered with bull5hit. Fact one... She is a mother.. That will never change.. Ever. Fact 2.. She is married... Fact 3.. Trying to view her as anything else is lying to her and yourself. Fact 4... Duh, of course he doesn't see her family issues, he's not part of the family.. Which shows a disrespect on her and his part towards you and your kid(s).)
> 
> This also concerned her alot because if she would ever somehow end up with him, would he even care about the kids? He knows they would be a package deal and always had a dream of going to Disney with Kids.... However She also knows that this guy is 36 and doesn't quite think he understands the gravity and work it takes to raise kids.I mean a Dream of kids at Disney sounds great-I can picture it in my head, but does he see two screaming toddlers that wont sleep... who get up in the night and destroy the kitchen making cereal... who seem to find every Marker in the house and mark up at least one surface of every wall in the house.... is this guy in dream world? He likes to dip out at a moments notice and go where ever and do what ever he wants. This is a Turn off for my wife. He does seem to have said all the rite things to her at the right time tho.
> 
> ( Oh boy, .... Deep breath.... Ok, listen dude. Take a good look at your statement above.... Again, this is her, so the whole " He get's me for me" crap is out the window cause this lifestyle of being a parent is her... And I hate to tell you, don't think the morality of parenthood can or will trump one's willingness and wanting of an affair, it happens all the time man and woman alike.)
> 
> She also mention that How Could she fall so madly in love with me and love me then someone Who touches the same as i once did come along and totally Suck her heart to him?This also scares her cause she is worried that no matter what-Me-Him-life- how can people who connect with you just fall into your life and suck your heart to a different person... She knows this could happen anytime. Is putting a good foot forward into working on our issues and really wants us to be us again.. The remorse is there feel it when she detaches and switches it to anger or guilt towards me.
> 
> ( That's a lot of she's in there, and I'm sure you're your just relaying her message of intent and feelings and we have a totally accurate and honest depiction of her feelings.. She is about she and what SHE needs and her yearning for love. She even bolsters you up by contrasting your past self with her newfound attachment to the affair partner, how she once felt like that for you and oh woe is her on how she is scared about falling for someone else.. I am willing to bet you might have even muttered a sympathetic gesture towards her "Struggle" which included betraying you.... Her combination of anger and guilt is not altruistic and remorseful on her part.... She got caught and called out... You sir dared interrupt the cake party. How dare you hold her responsible for being a Wife, mother and trustworthy partner, you selfish prick.....)
> 
> Thanks all for all the comments and advice... I have Used lots of them so far... and have lots in my pocket


 Please listen, and listen well. an Emotional affair is a prelude to a Physical one. It is what binds the connection between physical interaction, and so far, SO FAR, she has not reached that first checkpoint of physical contact. But the yearning is there. 

Some fun facts for you..

She will not be niced out of this situation. 
She will not admit total guilt or responsibility unless you have solid proof. ( Don't think this is over, trust me, it almost never is)
She will use your emotional insecurities against you.
Distance means little, don't think otherwise.
Rugsweeping means outa sight, outa mind but still dirt remains.
Marriage counseling is useless while she is still in contact with him.

I know your scared and uneasy, we all know your scared an uneasy. One way or another you have to get through this. But in what condition depends on the actions you take today. Do nothing and you will be vulnerable to so much more than you'd ever think she'd do to you. Never think for an instant that " OH they'd never do X,Y,Z to me".... Just surf the threads in this place and see how many fell victim to that assumption. In some manner you will suffer.

Or you can take control of the situation. Go on the offensive, challenge her, respectfully mind you, and take charge of your household and marriage. Sure, you may run the risk of a divorce, but it is you taking the risk and knowing what is going to happen next. Most people here say File for DIvorce, and you being here is exactly the opposite of this suggestion. Take it from me, it is the MOST EFFECTIVE MEANS OF ACTION YOU CAN DO THAT GARNISHES THE MOST TRUTHFUL AND IMMEDIATE RESULTS.

Think about it, you file, she knows why and you gamble it all on the line... Either she fold's and gives up the affair and recommits to the marriage and family or accepts the Divorce Filing, which if done should be done in secret. Either way you'll KNOW the truth and the end result will be accelerated now that a clock has been set to the end. 

You will either be back here after months of trying to get things to work doing it her way, or a way you think is best that suits her needs, or as just a spectator reading the other comments people will make on this thread... But I promise you, don't take the suggestive actions explained by the people here, you will be back wondering where the hell you went wrong and "If Only"....


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## Marc878

itbeme said:


> I looked at my husband tonight and asked him If I told you I have met my Soulmate, How would you respond? First he said Ya trying to tell me something? Then it was see ya have a good life. I did explain why I asked and we discussed the thread. A persons life is what they make it with the ups and downs, your soulmate is the one that goes through the ups and downs along with you. Hold each other up when needed and glide on as you can and Love one another as you grow together.


Oh honey, look at all the lovely unicorns >.

Aren't they just adorable?????


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## OldWolf57

Go read Banana Peel thread, think it took him a year doing it your way.
Guess what ?? He found out just like you will, that as long as there is contact, it's still on.

He just had to try his way, but he was man enough to come back as say the VETs was right.

So good luck with that.


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