# Sexual fantasy during partnered sex....part 2



## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

I was hoping to revisit a topic I have posted on before, as new information has come to me that has caused me to really dwell on the topic. Part of me is posting to get my thoughts out, and other part to get some feedback from the TAM community.

Not going to try to spell out my entire marriage sexual history, but obviously I am on TAM and have multiple past posts on different aspects of sex in marriage. I am the HD and wife the LD partner. Lot of "issues" over the years, although steadily and slowly getting better.

For the first 19 years of marriage, my wife claimed to not fantasize at all, ever. She said she just did not. Even when she masturbated, she said she only thought about the physical sensations and nothing more. For many reasons, I never believed this, including things she sometimes said that contradicted her claims. 

In the last 18 months, the conversation has changed to her occasionally mentioning not only that she does fantasize, but specifically about what. She never addressed how she used to claim otherwise, but I was not going to push the issue, as I was very happy she was opening up to me. She fantasizes almost exclusively about lesbian sex. Even this is not an issue in itself for me, and I know everyone is imprinted with what pushes their buttons, and it is what it is. She would say adamantly that she has zero desire to ever have sex with a woman in real life, but that is where her mind goes when she fantasizes.

Now...on to what is a bit newer info and is causing me to think. Up until very recently, I had either suspected or known (after she told me), that she did in fact fantasize and it was always about lesbian sex. What was newer info to me, was that she has to fantasize to orgasm, including during partnered sex. I have always suspected this was happening on occasion, especially after she had told me about some specific times, but only very recently realized that is literally 95% of the time we have sex, and seems like 100% of the time that she orgasms. I had previously assumed it was more rare during partnered sex (although I new it happened on occasion and have even posted on TAM about it). The more she opens up to me about this, I am starting to gather that she has to think of either receiving oral sex from a woman or being fingered by a woman to orgasm......every time. 

I fantasize when I masturbate and assume most people do, so the idea of her fantasizing (including about lesbian sex) itself is not an issue for me, even knowing that it may happen during partnered sex SOMETIMES, does not bother me, but coming to the realization that it is nearly 100% (if not truly 100%) of the time, makes me feel pretty crappy.

Maybe that is just how her mind works, but really makes me wonder if she even desire me as a person sexually at all.


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

Have to say I’d feel like **** as well if that’s what my wife confessed. If it was an occasional thing I wouldn’t sweat it but if it’s a required kink, that’s another matter. Have you asked her if she was ever with another woman? Also ask her WHY she would not want to carry this out. I’m not suggesting that she do that, but her answer might reveal something.

Do you have kids? Does she work outside the home? Maybe she sees you as a paycheck and wants to maintain the image of an ideal man-wife family but she’s suppressing homosexuality.....

(edited for typos)


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

gr8ful1 said:


> Have to say I’d feel like **** as well if that’s what my wife confessed. If it was an occasional thing I wouldn’t sweat it but if it’s a required kink, that’s another matter. Have you asked her if she was ever with another woman? Also ask her WHY she would not want to carry this out. I’m not suggesting that she do that, but her answer might reveal something.
> 
> Do you have kids? Does she work outside the home? Maybe she sees you as a paycheck and wants to maintain the image of an ideal man-wife family but she’s suppressing homosexuality.....
> 
> (edited for typos)


so its complicated. Like most marriage and sex topics. She claims she is for SURE not a lesbian and would never want that in real life, but she also comes from a very strict Christian background and her current beliefs are not supportive of homosexual lifestyle. She has told me her fantasies make her feel guilty. At least as much as she will admit, she only had one very brief encounter with another woman (more like girl, as it was when she and the girl were 14), and it was more about experimenting that sexual desire. The thing is, besides the fantasies, the ONLY time I have seen her get aroused from movies, books, etc.. is form lesbian scenes. I am at the point that I believe she finds men physically attractive and does feel sexual attraction to men, but the only thing that gets her truly "got to have it now" horny is the idea of sex with another woman. If you google top women fantasies, it is not really all that unusual. It is normally in the top 10 from surveys. The issue for me is that is seems the only thing that sparks her interest, meaning that for sure nothing I offer does. Even when we have sex, she is closing her eyes and visualizing sex with a women. When I realized it is literally 100% of the time, made me really feel down and insecure about the relationship


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## Dadto2 (Aug 11, 2020)

Yeah, that would upset me too. Fantasizing is fine when you're masturbating, but you shouldn't have to do it when you having sex with your partner (at least not all the time). And even then, you would most likely think about a member of the opposite sex.

Have you asked her what she fantasizes about? Is the other woman giving her oral? If so, maybe you can add that to your repertoire. But otherwise agree with gr8ful1...she may be a bi or lesbian and scared to come out.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

I know exactly what she fantasizes about, and to be honest, I would be open to letting it happen (within some boundaries), but her spiritual beliefs would stop that before it ever got past a conversation. I sometimes wonder if her beliefs were different, if she would be bi. She says for sure not, but then always backs it up with her beliefs. 

The hard things for me is coming to realize how often it happens and that it seems to be a go to all the time. I feel a bit like she has little sexual interest in me and sex for her is about going into her own mind for things that turn her on. If it were less often, i would not think much of it. It seems to explain a lot about why things were the way they were in the 20+ year history of our marriage.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Nearly half of both men and women at least sometimes fantasize about someone else during sex, so it's normal and common. Dr. Dawn Michael — a clinical sexologist in California — says that not only is thinking of someone else during sex perfectly normal, it's something she even occasionally recommends in her practice. "Especially for men if they're having problems maintaining an erection, or if a woman is having a problem having an orgasm, it's ok to think of something else that turns you on," she said. That something could be a porn scene you recently watched, a professor you always had a crush on sophomore year of college, or maybe it's even someone you just saw a the grocery store. Whatever works. However, thinking of one particular person (like an ex), or thinking of someone else _every_ time you have sex is probably a sign of a deeper issue. 

IMO it's only a problem if it interferes with having genuine intimacy with your partner most of the time. In some cases the partner may no longer be exciting (habituation) or may not put in the effort needed for the level of arousal needed to enjoy themselves, so it's a shortcut. I suppose it's not much different than a couple fantasizing together about having someone else join them, it's just that only one of them needs the extra mental stimulation.

I know we both occasionally fantasize about someone else, and don't consider it to be an issue.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Nearly half of both men and women at least sometimes fantasize about someone else during sex, so it's normal and common. Dr. Dawn Michael — a clinical sexologist in California — says that not only is thinking of someone else during sex perfectly normal, it's something she even occasionally recommends in her practice. "Especially for men if they're having problems maintaining an erection, or if a woman is having a problem having an orgasm, it's ok to think of something else that turns you on," she said. That something could be a porn scene you recently watched, a professor you always had a crush on sophomore year of college, or maybe it's even someone you just saw a the grocery store. Whatever works. However, thinking of one particular person (like an ex), or thinking of someone else _every_ time you have sex is probably a sign of a deeper issue.
> 
> IMO it's only a problem if it interferes with having genuine intimacy with your partner most of the time. In some cases the partner may no longer be exciting (habituation) or may not put in the effort needed for the level of arousal needed to enjoy themselves, so it's a shortcut. I suppose it's not much different than a couple fantasizing together about having someone else join them, it's just that only one of them needs the extra mental stimulation.
> 
> I know we both occasionally fantasize about someone else, and don't consider it to be an issue.


I agree with you and have done similar research. In my wife's case, it is not a specific person or ex, but more visualizing from sexy movie/porn she has seen. Its not a "real" person. The issue for me is the "every time" and that she closes her eyes and "zones out" from the two of us. I never tied two and two together until recently (when she was more open about this happening), that she often does not want me to talk, say anything, change positions, or anything when she is "fantasizing". I always thought it was more just a distraction, but I now realize that it is because if I speak up, it "ruins" her fantasy. That makes me feel very disconnected and kind of shi**y


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

My wife also has to focus on a fantasy to get off. I would guess that she does this about 98% of the time. So my wife is very similar to yours. My wife also has a strict christian background. I wonder if that is part of the issue.

What I have gathered from my wife is that she is essentially creating a romance novel in her head and that is what allows her to build to a climax. She indicates that its not a visualizing of particular actions that helps her, but the emotional desire she images between the two.

This used to bother me somewhat, but not much anymore. As I have thought about what gets me over the edge, I realized that it is almost as much as a fantasy as hers. For me it usually involves thinking that my wife is really into what we are doing. Maybe even out of control with desire at the time. As I talk to her, I have discovered that she is never out of control with desire and probably never into the experience as much as I wish. So basically, I've learned that I'm fantasizing as much as she is. I'm just fantasizing about what I wish was going through her head.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I think your over thinking it. Things are way more complicated then she is just thinking about lesbian sex and she does it every time she has sex with you. 

When your getting railed it’s hard to think of lesbian sex sorry. Maybe a flash of something goes through her mind, but there is no way for the duration of the sexual act she is thinking about lesbian sex.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

I think the lesbian sex fantasy may be due to the fact that for her Christian beliefs, that type of sex is so "taboo", hence the forbidden fruit type of thing, so no big deal.
The fact she has to fantasize all the time even with YOU having sex, well that sucks.


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I always thought it was more just a distraction, but I now realize that it is because if I speak up, it "ruins" her fantasy.


Sorry Girl_power - I totally disagree with you he’s simply overthinking it. Could you imagine your man telling you to shut up during sex because he MUST fantasize he’s with a dude and that you making any noise ruins that fantasy? If you could put up with that, more power to you. No way I would.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

@Married_in_michigan,

You can maybe frame it differently in your head, and see if it works better for you and seems plausible.

First, she has chosen to share this with YOU, these naughty bits of her normally very private inner life. Probably after years of being afraid and ashamed to. You have seen deeper into her than she has permitted anyone to look, from any angle.

That’s intimacy, beyond the physical, about what’s happening during the physical. Intimacy squared, at least.

Maybe that’s something you could feel good about.

Second, have you ever had a hard time reaching climax because your mind would keep switching focus to other things, taking you out of the moment? Perhaps her real-time fantasy simply serves to keep her mind engaged rather than distracted by thoughts about the kids, money concerns, the election, the clutter downstairs. Maybe her inner movie helps her respond to what it is YOU are doing.

It may also be something she has trained her body to respond to, if she has those sorts of thoughts during masturbation. 

I think on this one, your opportunity most likely is to come to terms with your own insecurities somehow. Not that there is anything wrong or unusual about having such worries. But, it would be sad and ironic if her opening herself up, to you and to herself, and conquering some inhibitions of thought, caused a chill to pour over your sex life together.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

gr8ful1 said:


> Sorry Girl_power - I totally disagree with you he’s simply overthinking it. Could you imagine your man telling you to shut up during sex because he MUST fantasize he’s with a dude and that you making any noise ruins that fantasy? If you could put up with that, more power to you. No way I would.


Yeah. If the man I was having sex with had to fantasize about being with a man every single time he orgasmed, I think that might be it for me (done).


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> @Married_in_michigan,
> 
> You can maybe frame it differently in your head, and see if it works better for you and seems plausible.
> 
> ...


_Intimacy_ is focusing on _your partner_ during sex. This is 100 percent of the time. It's not sharing a little turn on. It's sharing a tune OUT of him.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Livvie said:


> _Intimacy_ is focusing on _your partner_ during sex. This is 100 percent of the time. It's not sharing a little turn on. It's sharing a tune OUT of him.



Intimacy to me is about being seen, especially when it’s something one normally is afraid to admit to oneself or others. She is letting him, and only him, see her fantasy. She is being vulnerable to him.

It’s possible she is tuning him out, but that is not the only possibility. You sound as if you are certain it is. If so, I don’t understand how you reached such certainty, so fast, with just a bit of info from him and zero input from her.

It could be the act overwhelmingly requires his being and actions to work for her, and the fantasy just helps keep her from distraction. Or, maybe it significantly enhances the pleasure she is being given by him. Why involve him at all, if she’s fundamentally a lesbian or not interested in him? Especially considering he has a penis, and it’s his?

I’m suggesting he choose to find a less harsh and self-centered way of looking at this, and see if it that works for him and seems plausible. If it doesn’t, there’s still plenty of time for him to be done.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> Intimacy to me is about being seen, especially when it’s something one normally is afraid to admit to oneself or others. She is letting him, and only him, see her fantasy. She is being vulnerable to him.
> 
> It’s possible she is tuning him out, but that is not the only possibility. You sound as if you are certain it is. If so, I don’t understand how you reached such certainty, so fast, with just a bit of info from him and zero input from her.
> 
> ...


I still wholeheartedly disagree with you. 

If someone tried to sell me on the fact that it was "intimate" between us because it was vulnerable of my husband to share with me that EVERY time he has an orgasm he needs to think about being with a man, they would fail. If you need to fantasize that hard about a completely different sex act (every time!!!!) than the one you are currently experiencing IN REAL LIFE that IS tuning out your partner. Tuning out not only from him as a person but from his whole sexuality. That denial of who she is having sex with and how she is having sex with him is the opposite of intimate.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I was hoping to revisit a topic I have posted on before, as new information has come to me that has caused me to really dwell on the topic.


It is possible to talk about sex too much. Your wife may be so tired of you talking about sex that she has to zone out. Try easing off on the analysis and discussion with her. No one likes to feel that they will be graded on their performance or their performance will be used to initiate yet another discussion about the dreaded 'sex' word.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

I would blow my friggen brains out if my husband had been asking me for the last umpteen years what I fantasize about and how much I do it and on and on and on. Good lord.

She's LOW DRIVE. Low drive generally means she's not driven by a need for sex all the time like you are. And THAT means that she has to do whatever it takes to get herself into the mood - and if thinking about lesbian sex does it, then what's the big deal? You honestly think after 20+ years she's supposed to be panting at the thought of you? Sorry bud, but that's pretty rare. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it's just that it doesn't happen often with married people after 20 years of the same old same old.

Do yourself a favor and stop obsessing about crap that sounds like something a teenage girl would obsess about.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

PieceOfSky said:


> @Married_in_michigan,
> 
> You can maybe frame it differently in your head, and see if it works better for you and seems plausible.
> 
> ...


You make some very interesting points and I will ponder them.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I would blow my friggen brains out if my husband had been asking me for the last umpteen years what I fantasize about and how much I do it and on and on and on. Good lord.
> 
> She's LOW DRIVE. Low drive generally means she's not driven by a need for sex all the time like you are. And THAT means that she has to do whatever it takes to get herself into the mood - and if thinking about lesbian sex does it, then what's the big deal? You honestly think after 20+ years she's supposed to be panting at the thought of you? Sorry bud, but that's pretty rare. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it's just that it doesn't happen often with married people after 20 years of the same old same old.
> 
> Do yourself a favor and stop obsessing about crap that sounds like something a teenage girl would obsess about.


You assessment is fair, based on what I have shared, but in reality I am not hounding her all the time about this. It is causal conversations that have come up (in a very positive way), but sometimes I leave and privately contemplate about it, then sometimes pose a question on TAM to get feedback. She would blow her brains out if I was always asking or harping on her about it....but that is not what is happening. I am sharing on TAM my thought process and using things my wife has shared. No inquisition involved....

I also am not thinking she she be only focused on me as a object of desire or that I am "all that". I know that is not true and have no expectations of that. BUT....When we are having sex together, it is hard for me to feel that there is ALWAYS an outside influence. The "always" part is what makes me question.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Fair enough assessment. This is a rough one. Of course you don’t want it to be that she only thinks of something other than you (and opposite of you). 

Yet, it was very brave of her to share her most intimate thoughts with you. I would tread lightly like you are, so as to not damage the openness that is there.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Spicy said:


> Fair enough assessment. This is a rough one. Of course you don’t want it to be that she only thinks of something other than you (and opposite of you).
> 
> Yet, it was very brave of her to share her most intimate thoughts with you. I would tread lightly like you are, so as to not damage the openness that is there.


to be honest, I doubt I will ever bring it up with her. To your point, for many years she was not very open at all, so I have no reason to shut that down by pressure. It is more about me needing to come to terms with this and decide to not let it dwell in my thoughts.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think many LD partners need (key word) to fantasize about someone else some/most/all the time that they’re having sex with their partner. Why? Basically they’re bored once the newness of a relationship wears off so they have to look for the “newness” elsewhere. I’m not surprised she fantasizes all the time but I am surprised it’s only lesbian sex that does it for her and I’m very surprised she admitted it because of what it says about her sexual relationship with you. I would say, if she weren’t religious, she’d be gay rather than bisexual since she’s not ever fantasizing about males. Are you going to be able to accept this revelation about her?


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Openminded said:


> I think many LD partners need (key word) to fantasize about someone else some/most/all the time that they’re having sex with their partner. Why? Basically they’re bored once the newness of a relationship wears off so they have to look for the “newness” elsewhere. I’m not surprised she fantasizes all the time but I am surprised it’s only lesbian sex that does it for her and I’m very surprised she admitted it because of what it says about her sexual relationship with you. I would say, if she weren’t religious, she’d be gay rather than bisexual since she’s not ever fantasizing about males. Are you going to be able to accept this revelation about her?


I had an opportunity to do a session yesterday with a MC that I have seen off and on over the last couple years, and her take on this really put me at ease. She knows both myself and my wife and many details of the back story, so she very quickly gave me some feedback that put my mind at ease. 

I am going to just let this topic sit for now and not bring it up more and not dwell on it.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I agree with you and have done similar research. *In my wife's case, it is not a specific person or ex, but more visualizing from sexy movie/porn she has seen. Its not a "real" person. *The issue for me is the* "every time" and that she closes her eyes and "zones out" from the two of us*. I never tied two and two together until recently (when she was more open about this happening), that *she often does not want me to talk, say anything, change positions, or anything when she is "fantasizing". I always thought it was more just a distraction, but I now realize that it is because if I speak up, it "ruins" her fantasy.* That makes me feel very disconnected and kind of shi**y





Married_in_michigan said:


> so its complicated. Like most marriage and sex topics. *She claims she is for SURE not a lesbian and would never want that in real life, but she also comes from a very strict Christian background and her current beliefs are not supportive of homosexual lifestyle.* She has told me* her fantasies make her feel guilty*. At least as much as she will admit, she only had one very brief encounter with another woman (more like girl, as *it was when she and the girl were 14)*, and it was more about experimenting that sexual desire. The thing is, besides the fantasies, the ONLY time I have seen her get *aroused from movies, books, etc.. is form lesbian scenes.* I am at the point that I believe she finds men physically attractive and does feel sexual attraction to men, but the only thing that gets her truly "got to have it now" horny is the idea of sex with another woman. If you google top women fantasies, it is not really all that unusual. It is normally in the top 10 from surveys. The issue for me is that is seems the only thing that sparks her interest, meaning that for sure nothing I offer does. Even when we have sex, she is closing her eyes and visualizing sex with a women. *When I realized it is literally 100% of the time, made me really feel down and insecure about the relationship*





Married_in_michigan said:


> I know exactly what she fantasizes about, and to be honest, *I would be open to letting it happen (within some boundaries), but her spiritual beliefs would stop that before it ever got past a conversation.* I sometimes wonder if her beliefs were different, if she would be bi. She says for sure not, but then always backs it up with her beliefs.
> 
> The hard things for me is coming to* realize how often it happens and that it seems to be a go to all the time*. I feel a bit like she has little sexual interest in me and sex for her is about going into her own mind for things that turn her on. If it were less often, i would not think much of it. It seems to explain a lot about why things were the way they were in the 20+ year history of our marriage.


A few thoughts from a different perspective. When my W and I were in a sex starved marriage, before I worked on saving our marriage and before we got a Sex Therapist to help save our marriage, I felt so alone, neglected and hurt. It took a lot to forgive her, really forgive her. It also took a lot of change on my part to save the marriage. 

At one point my wife told me that she had no sexual desire for me. She said absolutely none. She obviously, saw how hurt I looked and told me she has no sexual desire for anyone. She told me that if we divorced, she would live the rest of her life alone. Yes, she is LD. And yet she reads lots of romance novels. I asked her if there wasn't a movie star or romance novel character she sexually desired. She said no, no one. I believed her. It was devastating to think I was not sexually desired at all. 

I can understand why you are upset that your W to orgasm requires herself to fantasize about sex with a woman and not you. At least the two of you are talking about it and she is willing to have sex with you in some form. 

At that point in my life, if my W had told me she had sexual fantasies about anyone real or from literature, man or woman, I would have had hope that we could regain some sexual contact with each other and make love sufficiently to emotionally bond again. The release of oxytocin (the bonding/cuddlying hormone) after sex can promote chemical feeling of closeness and trust, that if properly expanded on (after care, talking, etc) can result in real emotional connection.

If my W had told me she had fantasies about lesbian sex, I would have asked her how we could roll play such that I could enhance her fantasies. Since for religious reasons or whatever reasons she doesn't want to do it in reality (which is fine) role playing might be a way for her to get a taste of some of her fantasy via an illusion. 

Your W's comments about not talking, not moving, etc, would have been something I could have worked with. I might have asked her if I shaved my chest, legs, worn perfume, etc. would that help enhance her sexual experience.

My point is that she is having sex with you. You should view your glass as half full for that, and I am sure because of your backstory that you do. Rather than being upset at her fantasy, maybe you can work to embrace it in a role playing situation so that she can explore it and transfer those erotic good feelings and desires to you. You are probably right that she would never do it in real life, but maybe you can help her learn that and offer the opportunity every once in a while to be her "perfect lesbian lover."


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

You mentioned W is LD.

Unless it's been done already I'd ask for responses from LD women as to how many times they purposefully started a mini argument with their H to avoid sex, to keep him off balance.

With a follow up; what makes her think that approach won't drive her H off.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I think your ego is a bit fragile and your taking this stuff a little too serious. If my wife wanted to scream “Auqaman!” to get herself off I’d go buy the costume without problem. I’ve been with my wife for a very long time and I’m not going to pretend she has to wring out her panties after thinking of me.

Anyways...... I think your playing this completely the wrong way in bed. I would get her to assign her fantasy girl a name like maybe “Eve”. I would then proceed to tell Eve how unbelievably great her “meow” feels as I’m railing her from behind. You need to feed the fantasy.... not try to remove it.


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