# For a low conflict marriage, is divorce truely better for the children?



## Trickster

I know there is a bias here on TAM about staying in an unhappy marriage for the kids. I not talking about the parents who fight and argue all the time.

I will agree that most Tammers have been through hell because of cheating or emotional abuse. Divorce is a no brainer in those cases. What about the others?

What if divorce causes more anger between the parents. The problems don't go away just because the parents divorce. Sometimes it causes more anger and the kids are stuck in the middle.

My wife and I have a very low conflict marriage. In 23 years, I have had just one episode of yelling/rage. Well, maybe one more a couple years ago. That's because I expected too much from her. That was my mistake. I am over trying to change her.

The worst thing is that our daughter never sees us being affectionate. Is that really worse than divorce?


I went through a very sad time realizing that my wife of 23 years loves me as a friend. I have accepted that truth and I am much happier now. 

I can't find a non-bjased study with divorces from low conflict in marriages.(without cheating being involved)

I am so conflicted.


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## Joey2k

Trickster said:


> The worst thing is that our daughter never sees us being affectionate. Is that really worse than divorce?
> 
> 
> I went through a very sad time realizing that my wife of 23 years loves me as a friend. I have accepted that truth and I am much happier now.


If this is what you want your daughter to think marriage is supposed to be.


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## Trickster

Many years ago, My wife and I were visiting my sister and her family. At some point, my sister and her husband had a huge argument. They both said very mean things to each other. I think her kids were about the same age as my daughter is now. So I pulled them aside and told them this is not a "normal marriage". This is not the way it is supposed to be. They both responded. " this is nothing. You should see them when you're not here.

As of now my daughter believes things are hunky dory. 

What do I want to teach her about marriage? I think she will come to her own conclusion on marriage no matter what I do with mine. My wife and I both agree that we love our daughter more than anything else. My wife has given me the most amazing daughter ever. In spite of her medical condition, she has this amazing confidence about her. I fear divorce will destroy that confidence she has. 

The question still remains. Would a divorce improve the life of my daughter?


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## aine

Of course you will have varying points of view. Divorce is usually traumatising for kids as the world as they know it is fractured. As you know all marriages are not perfect and it is possible that your daughter sees the things she doesn't like (such as lack of affection) and ensures that they do not happen in her own marriage. 

My H grew up in an asian family that did not show any affection. Parents slept in separate bedrooms, no hugs, kisses for kids etc. However, with our kids, he hugs and kisses them all the time, so although the kids have their run ins and arguments with him, they know they are very loved.


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## Trickster

aine said:


> Of course you will have varying points of view. Divorce is usually traumatising for kids as the world as they know it is fractured. As you know all marriages are not perfect and it is possible that your daughter sees the things she doesn't like (such as lack of affection) and ensures that they do not happen in her own marriage.
> 
> My H grew up in an asian family that did not show any affection. Parents slept in separate bedrooms, no hugs, kisses for kids etc. However, with our kids, he hugs and kisses them all the time, so although the kids have their run ins and arguments with him, they know they are very loved.



Is your husband affectionate with you?

Yes, I don't believe that having a lack of affection will beget children who lack affection, as long as parents show affection to their children. I've spent the last several years initating more affection and being frustrated because wife wife never tried. It was hopeless. 

Both, my wife and I shower our daughter with TLC. Without a doubt, she knows we love her to pieces, which is why she is so confident. I NEVER felt I was loved from my parents. They were never affectionate with me in anyway and I was always withdrawn in my younger years. They also fought a lot and divorced. Today, at least in recent years, I have become very social.

I don't think our daughter will be damaged because mom an dad never kiss and sleep in different rooms. When she starts asking questions, I will sit her down, like I did with my niece and nephew and tell her its not the way a marriage is supposed to be.


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## Pluto2

Consider that when your D gets older and you tell her that this is not the way a normal marriage is supposed to be, that you are not fulfilled or even all that genuinely happy and you lived this life for her-she might resent the hell out of you. I think children genuinely want their parents to be happy. I also happen to think children learn how their supposed to be happy in life from watching their families. Dysfunctional families generally, although clearly not always, end up producing dysfunctional adults who end up dealing with their FOO problems in their adult relationships.

Divorce isn't the end of the world to many children. If they continue to feel secure, and see true joy in their parents-they end up just fine. Mine are.


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## NobodySpecial

Trickster said:


> Many years ago, My wife and I were visiting my sister and her family. At some point, my sister and her husband had a huge argument. They both said very mean things to each other. I think her kids were about the same age as my daughter is now. So I pulled them aside and told them this is not a "normal marriage". This is not the way it is supposed to be. They both responded. " this is nothing. You should see them when you're not here.
> 
> As of now my daughter believes things are hunky dory.
> 
> What do I want to teach her about marriage?* I think she will come to her own conclusion on marriage no matter what I do with mine.* My wife and I both agree that we love our daughter more than anything else. My wife has given me the most amazing daughter ever. In spite of her medical condition, she has this amazing confidence about her. I fear divorce will destroy that confidence she has.
> 
> The question still remains. Would a divorce improve the life of my daughter?


I don't know about this. One of the greatest gifts to my husband and I has been the role models we had of awesome marriage growing up.


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## Cecezakat

If lack of affection between the parents is your only concern I would say divorce is worse. My parents divorced and it was horrible. Divorce is better if the alternative is to keep your kids around unhealthy and frequent conflict. Usually children who are old enough will tell you that they want you to divorce because they are sick of the fighting and the hostile environment.


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## Trickster

Pluto2 said:


> Consider that when your D gets older and you tell her that this is not the way a normal marriage is supposed to be, that you are not fulfilled or even all that genuinely happy and you lived this life for her-she might resent the hell out of you. I think children genuinely want their parents to be happy. I also happen to think children learn how their supposed to be happy in life from watching their families. Dysfunctional families generally, although clearly not always, end up producing dysfunctional adults who end up dealing with their FOO problems in their adult relationships.
> 
> Divorce isn't the end of the world to many children. If they continue to feel secure, and see true joy in their parents-they end up just fine. Mine are.


How does anybody know what our kids will resent when they get older. If we divorce, I will not being in her life DAILY. We will no longer have our NIGHTLY reading ritual. We will stop our bike rides or it will happen much less. Homework? I enjoy helping her with math homework. I stink at grammar, so her mother helps her with that. 

Even with "normal parents", kids can still have their issues. What about those amazingly loving perfect parents with the perfect marriage? Those parents may set the bar so high that their children never find that type of relationship! 

Sometimes I think it's narcissistic to divorce if young children are involved. This "we only live once and it should be happy "? IDK it should be what is best for the kids.

If the children are unhappy because of the parents behavior, Yes, divorce. 

I still don't know if a divorce would make our daughter happier.


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## Trickster

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't know about this. One of the greatest gifts to my husband and I has been the role models we had of awesome marriage growing up.


If you were to ask our daughter, she would say she has awesome role models. We were discussing this several months ago. Our daughter was sad because she couldn't hang out with her friend because she was with her dad. Her dad has her whole weekend planned out every time her has the kids. She has several friends with divorced parents. We told her some parents have a hard time living together. She looked at us and said, "I am glad that y'all get along so well". We reminded her of our squabbles. She didn't think those were all that bad. She also said her teachers yell at the students way more than we do.


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## NobodySpecial

I was probably focusing on something not relevant. My comment was role model FOR MARRIAGE. But that sounds unattainable so probably low conflict marriage is better for her than divorce. Or... would it be better to get the bandage off the wound so she can heal? 

Sorry I guess I have no clue. Just sympathy.


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## Trickster

Cecezakat said:


> If lack of affection between the parents is your only concern I would say divorce is worse. My parents divorced and it was horrible. Divorce is better if the alternative is to keep your kids around unhealthy and frequent conflict. Usually children who are old enough will tell you that they want you to divorce because they are sick of the fighting and the hostile environment.


This is all relative. Up until a few months ago, I became an a-hole. I tried for several years to get my wife to love me in the way that I wanted her to. The harder I tried, the resentments built up. Nothing worked. My wife telling me she had a platonic love for me after 20 plus years broke my heart and I wanted to punish her. I'll say that again. I wanted to punish her for not loving me. That was the unhealthy part. I no longer feel the desire to do that. 

I found my own happiness in my life. I no longer need my wife to make me happy. I was so Co-dependent for so many years. I see that now. 

I still think my marriage is dysfunctional, I just don't know where that line is when a diviry is the better solution. That's all.


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## jld

Were your parents divorced, trickster? How did you feel about it?


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## Trickster

NobodySpecial said:


> I was probably focusing on something not relevant. My comment was role model FOR MARRIAGE. But that sounds unattainable so probably low conflict marriage is better for her than divorce. Or... would it be better to get the bandage off the wound so she can heal?
> 
> Sorry I guess I have no clue. Just sympathy.


It is relevant. You said both of you had awesome role models growing up which helped the both of you choose each other. I think y'all are one of the fortunate ones.


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## brooklynAnn

Children want to know that their parents are happy and fulfilled. They don't care if you are having sex and sleeping in the same room. Long ago, most married people slept in separate beds or rooms. My kids thinks I had sex 2xs to make them. (Even though they know about sex and we have had lots of talks) They don't want to know about that.

However, what they want is to see their parents smiling, laughing and being affectionate with each other. By affectionate I mean the hugs, kisses on cheeks, quick pecks, sitting close to each other etc.

If you and your wife can be in a friendly situation where you are sharing those non-sexual activities with each other, then, you kids will never know you are not having sex. 

My kids used to be sad when they would not see us smiling or hugging. They will immediately want to know what is going on. Did mum or dad did something? My son will tell my husband to say you are sorry and fix it. My daughter will blame me for making her dad unhappy.

I have learned when the kids don't see you are connecting, they assume something is wrong. Then, they try to figure out what is going on. Then, the buggers start placing blame. 

So, it's all in how you and your wife interact with each other. If at any time you kid(s) start questioning your relationship with your wife, then, you can explain things to them. See how they view your marriage, you will be surprised at the insights they have.


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## Trickster

jld said:


> Were your parents divorced, trickster? How did you feel about it?


This is a very loaded question.

My parents fought all the time. Physical fights. My mom drank a lot and she was probably drunk most nights. When I was 7, our dad abandoned 4 kids with an alcoholic mother to marry his AP and moved to another state.. We were kicked out of our house and all of our belongings were moved out into the yard.. We moved a half dozen times in a few short years. For a while, we lived in a neighbors garage.

My mother died when I was 14 from cirrhosis of the liver. We then moved in with our dad and step-mom. All 4 of us were kicked out of the house, most of us before we finished H.S. I lived with a co-workers my whole senior year. I still graduated. My dad has passed away already, as well as both of my brothers. My sister and I are it.


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## jld

I am really sorry to hear this, trickster.


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## Spitfire

I think as long as you're not having loud fights and are cordial and still laughing and doing things together as a family it's better for the kids than divorce. 

I'm in a similar situation. Married 23 years. We've gotten into a few loud fights over the years but not many. The sad part of the whole thing is that my boys are getting to the age (15 & 12) that they're starting to realize their mom is a little nuts. Divorce would only make that worse. For now I'm just trying to maintain the status quo.


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## Dude007

Spitfire said:


> I think as long as you're not having loud fights and are cordial and still laughing and doing things together as a family it's better for the kids than divorce.
> 
> I'm in a similar situation. Married 23 years. We've gotten into a few loud fights over the years but not many. The sad part of the whole thing is that my boys are getting to the age (15 & 12) that they're starting to realize their mom is a little nuts. Divorce would only make that worse. For now I'm just trying to maintain the status quo.


How is she nuts?


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## Spitfire

I could write a book. To be honest my coping mechanism over the years has been to let it go in one ear and out the other. She has a "Medical Crisis" literally every week. The past week she's had a cold. Walking around coughing with her tongue sticking out like a 3 year old. The week before that was a torn rotator cuff WITH the muscle separated from the bone. Miraculously recovered overnight from that. On her death bed numerous times with heart palpitations. Having a stroke. Thinks I should give myself a raise so she won't have to work. I could go on and on but...


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## Dude007

Wow are u bolting once boys are grown?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spitfire

Yup. 5 1/2 more years.


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## Spitfire

Damn. 6 1/2 more years. lol


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## Why Not Be Happy?

Trickster:
Tough background. Congrats on coming through all that.


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## Dude007

Spitfire said:


> Damn. 6 1/2 more years. lol


I hear ya! DUDE


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## Catherine602

The wait time may be easy if you think about it in terms of the benefit to your daughter. She is entering her tweens, a time that is critical for her future ability to have healthy relationships. You have a pivotal role in that. 

Learn about the effects of D on girls. You want to leave in about 7 years. She will still need you. Be care that she does not get the impression that you left your family and her to get a new woman. Make her a priority.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanielleBennett

If you two feel like you can have a divorce and still be happy and love each other like friends then your daughter should be ok. As long as she feels included with both of your lives. Or maybe you and your wife can work out an agreement to where you two can live together for a while but be separated and see how that works, maybe talk to your daughter too and get her feelings on it. Also, I think seeing a counselor will be good for you. It will help you sort through your feelings and find some closure.


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## WonkyNinja

Trickster said:


> I know there is a bias here on TAM about staying in an unhappy marriage for the kids. I not talking about the parents who fight and argue all the time.
> 
> I will agree that most Tammers have been through hell because of cheating or emotional abuse. Divorce is a no brainer in those cases. What about the others?
> 
> What if divorce causes more anger between the parents. The problems don't go away just because the parents divorce. Sometimes it causes more anger and the kids are stuck in the middle.


It's the parents responsibility to keep the kids out of the conflict. They should never see one parent bad mouthing the other.



> My wife and I have a very low conflict marriage. In 23 years, I have had just one episode of yelling/rage. Well, maybe one more a couple years ago. That's because I expected too much from her. That was my mistake. I am over trying to change her.
> 
> The worst thing is that our daughter never sees us being affectionate. Is that really worse than divorce?


In 20 years or so how will you feel when you see her in the same misery you have now as that is what she expected of marriage.

You are her role model and seeing her parents happy even if not with each other is important.



> I went through a very sad time realizing that my wife of 23 years loves me as a friend. I have accepted that truth and I am much happier now.
> 
> I can't find a non-bjased study with divorces from low conflict in marriages.(without cheating being involved)
> 
> I am so conflicted.


My XW saw me that way and thought I was selfish for wanting more. It's no way to live, you have a right to be loved properly by someone who appreciates you as more than a roommate.


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## WonkyNinja

Trickster said:


> This is all relative. Up until a few months ago, I became an a-hole. I tried for several years to get my wife to love me in the way that I wanted her to. The harder I tried, the resentments built up. Nothing worked. My wife telling me she had a platonic love for me after 20 plus years broke my heart and I wanted to punish her. I'll say that again. I wanted to punish her for not loving me. That was the unhealthy part. I no longer feel the desire to do that.


If she's told you that then she can't expect you to want to be anything more than platonic friends with her.


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## Trickster

Catherine602 said:


> The wait time may be easy if you think about it in terms of the benefit to your daughter. She is entering her tweens, a time that is critical for her future ability to have healthy relationships. You have a pivotal role in that.
> 
> Learn about the effects of D on girls. You want to leave in about 7 years. She will still need you. Be care that she does not get the impression that you left your family and her to get a new woman. Make her a priority.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



My daughter is my world. I feel guilty even when I work on ac Satuday. I still go to the Pops Concert Symphony series with friends. I feel bad about that. She is older now and can stay up later. For this season, I may get an extra ticket for her. Another friend brings his daughter, who is a couple years older. They would get along great.


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## Trickster

WonkyNinja said:


> It's the parents responsibility to keep the kids out of the conflict. They should never see one parent bad mouthing the other.
> 
> 
> 
> In 20 years or so how will you feel when you see her in the same misery you have now as that is what she expected of marriage.
> 
> You are her role model and seeing her parents happy even if not with each other is important.
> 
> 
> 
> My XW saw me that way and thought I was selfish for wanting more. It's no way to live, you have a right to be loved properly by someone who appreciates you as more than a roommate.


The future is unknown. I am living proof that I am not repeating the life my parents. At some point, when we become adults, we know right from wrong. Asan adult, I have many older adult role models. My parents were never affectionate with me, but I know that is necessary for kids as well as adults. Like I said in another post, I went out with a female friend and I got the best hug in all the world. It was just a friendly hug and I needed that.


We are happy. Well, that a slight exaggeration. We are managing. I am not in misery. I know what that is. We're are far from that.

This isn't about my happiness. It's about our daughter. It's important that we give her the best childhood possible. That's our job.


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## Trickster

DanielleBennett said:


> If you two feel like you can have a divorce and still be happy and love each other like friends then your daughter should be ok. As long as she feels included with both of your lives. Or maybe you and your wife can work out an agreement to where you two can live together for a while but be separated and see how that works, maybe talk to your daughter too and get her feelings on it. Also, I think seeing a counselor will be good for you. It will help you sort through your feelings and find some closure.


This could be a short term solution. I, we, have talked about this. I would get our home refinanced in my name and used the extra equity to pay off all of our debt. She would live in the home until our daughter is 18/ graduates or whatever time frame we choose... Still working out the logistics. My wife is a very long way from being financially independent. So I would still pay for the bulk of the bills. Nothing really changes. She won't change until our daughter is 18 

I've been to an IC. She validated many of the feelings I have. She wants to see my wife, but she refuses to go. So the IC only gets my version of everything.


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## SurpriseMyself

I can honestly say I spent a good portion of my teenage years wishing my parents would divorce. There was some fighting, but mostly it was just my father taking my mom for granted and her putting on a brave face. After years of doing so, I think she just was running on empty. She didn't have much to give, as she had to put her energy into acting happy when I knew she wasn't.

They separated when the last of the kids left for college. Probably within a month of me leaving. But they ended up getting back together.

After my mom died, I found letters and notes she had saved. They were notes to my dad about how she needed his love and support and didn't get it. There's was a list of household belongings, two columns titled with each of their names.

I think of her often, and how much she sacrificed for us. I wish she had been happy, but she wasn't. I now find myself in a similar situation and wonder what advice she would give me if she could talk from above.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster

SurpriseMyself said:


> I can honestly say I spent a good portion of my teenage years wishing my parents would divorce. There was some fighting, but mostly it was just my father taking my mom for granted and her putting on a brave face. After years of doing so, I think she just was running on empty. She didn't have much to give, as she had to put her energy into acting happy when I knew she wasn't.
> 
> They separated when the last of the kids left for college. Probably within a month of me leaving. But they ended up getting back together.
> 
> After my mom died, I found letters and notes she had saved. They were notes to my dad about how she needed his love and support and didn't get it. There's was a list of household belongings, two columns titled with each of their names.
> 
> I think of her often, and how much she sacrificed for us. I wish she had been happy, but she wasn't. I now find myself in a similar situation and wonder what advice she would give me if she could talk from above.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I honestly get this. Instead of writing letters, I write on TAM. I have written many things/letters on my feelings that never made it here. I deleted many of them. The ones I have left I may print them out to save for later.

My FIL just passed away a few weeks ago. He was in ICU about 10 days before he had a stroke and they took him off life support. During that time leading up to that, my wife never shed a tear. When he passed away, no tears, and since that time, no tears. It's not that she didn't cry, it's that her attitude the last month hasn't changed at all. No emotions at all. It's like nothing has happened.

Over the last few years, I went through all my changes. I went from doing most everything to "earn" her love. I did the same when I was young to "earn " my mother's love. Nothing I did made a difference with my mother and nothing I did made a difference with my wife. When I stopped doing, my wife never skipped a beat. 

This is and never was about the sex or the lack of sex. I just needed the affection. Neither one of us grew up with affectionate parents. I see that now. My wife seems to think it's normal. I know different.

23 years ago, I found a woman who stayed with me after all by baggage was revealed. It took a very long time to realize that my wife was just as messed up as me. She is just better at hiding it and unwilling to fix anything.

You mention a list! The only thing on my list is my daughter. My wife is the one who wanted all the stuff. She can have it all. I gave her all that she wanted. In return, she gave me an amazing daughter, one who gets smothered with my hugs.


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## SurpriseMyself

Trickster - we are definitely in similar situations. My H doesn't want to address our issues and while he doesn't say he's fine with how things are, he has stated that he can live like this until the kids are the out of the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snerg

Trickster said:


> Sometimes I think it's narcissistic to divorce if young children are involved. This "we only live once and it should be happy "? IDK it should be what is best for the kids.
> 
> If the children are unhappy because of the parents behavior, Yes, divorce.
> 
> I still don't know if a divorce would make our daughter happier.


Dude.

You have convinced yourself being unhappy is the safe way to make the best situation for you daughter.

This is the thinking that drives me nuts.

Your kids are *WAY WAY* more observant than we adults give credit to. Your daughter clearly sees things that you think she doesn't. She most definitely sees that there is a difference between how you treat her and how you and your wife treat each other.

Kids are amazingly adept at detecting problems - way sooner than any adult can.

If your daughter is acting well based upon your current marriage, you need to think about how she would flourish in a relationship where you and your wife genuinely cared and loved one another.

What's best for the child is *NEVER* settling for good enough. You being a martyr, going on with suffering all sorts of woe and misery, is far worse than divorcing. Your child will one day realize that the only reason you stayed in a completely miserable situation was because of them. Yeah, that's really looking out for their best interest.

What's truly best is two parents that can love each other and the children together. If that's not possible, then to have two separate parents that love them no matter what. Your kids want you to happy just as much as they want to be happy.


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## WonkyNinja

Trickster said:


> The future is unknown. I am living proof that I am not repeating the life my parents. At some point, when we become adults, we know right from wrong. Asan adult, I have many older adult role models. My parents were never affectionate with me, but I know that is necessary for kids as well as adults. Like I said in another post, I went out with a female friend and I got the best hug in all the world. It was just a friendly hug and I needed that.


I think I missed that more than the sex when I was in a sexless marriage.



> We are happy. Well, that a slight exaggeration. We are managing. I am not in misery. I know what that is. We're are far from that.


I read your later post. I don't know what to say other than I'm so sorry you had to go through that and have great respect for you putting your daughter so high in your needs.

I will add that there comes a point where your needs become your daughters needs. You will be the best parent you can to her by being happy and content in your life. If the resentment builds up in your marriage she will feel it. Children are pretty perceptive.



> This isn't about my happiness. It's about our daughter. It's important that we give her the best childhood possible. That's our job.


I agree. 

You may have to consider whether having two happy homes is better than one stressful one.

I wish you luck with whatever path you chose.


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## DanielleBennett

Trickster said:


> This could be a short term solution. I, we, have talked about this. I would get our home refinanced in my name and used the extra equity to pay off all of our debt. She would live in the home until our daughter is 18/ graduates or whatever time frame we choose... Still working out the logistics. My wife is a very long way from being financially independent. So I would still pay for the bulk of the bills. Nothing really changes. She won't change until our daughter is 18
> 
> I've been to an IC. She validated many of the feelings I have. She wants to see my wife, but she refuses to go. So the IC only gets my version of everything.


Really stinks that she refuses to see the counselor. There is nothing wrong with it but she might be afraid to go because she doesn't want to feel like she's wrong or being blamed for anything. Maybe she can be persuaded to go in the future, because it doesn't help when the counselor only gets one side of the story too. 

I think it's great that you are willing to do this financially for her and your daughter. Maybe when you two work out the details of this plan you should tell her that she needs to get a job and start saving money and learning how to budget, etc, because you can't pay the bills forever. It will give her time to have that cushion from you while she is working and figuring out her money.


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## Married but Happy

IMO, happy, healthy kids develop when the parents are happy and healthy in their marriage. The next best scenario is when the parents are happy and healthy - and divorced, perhaps with someone else who can provide the role model of a happy and healthy relationship. After that - sometimes - an unhappily married couple can keep it together to parent well, but I think that distorts the role model of marriage for their children. They will think a poor marriage is normal, and may well repeat those mistakes in their future relationships.

Of course, it's a little more complicated than that with other factors weighing in. Even worse for children is growing up in poverty, as that can limit their options even more than a "broken" home. So if splitting up - even if the parents are happier and can be good parents - leads to poverty (not just financial limitations), then perhaps it may be better to sacrifice for the children.


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## DanielleBennett

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, happy, healthy kids develop when the parents are happy and healthy in their marriage. The next best scenario is when the parents are happy and healthy - and divorced, perhaps with someone else who can provide the role model of a happy and healthy relationship. After that - sometimes - an unhappily married couple can keep it together to parent well, but I think that distorts the role model of marriage for their children. They will think a poor marriage is normal, and may well repeat those mistakes in their future relationships.


Very well said. Children will respond better in situations where the parents are divorced but happy, can get along and be civil, you know. But if they are unhappy in the home and it shows, tension can arise and the child can be unhappy as well and have low expectations of love and marriage.


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## Catherine602

snerg said:


> Dude.
> 
> You have convinced yourself being unhappy is the safe way to make the best situation for you daughter.
> 
> This is the thinking that drives me nuts.
> 
> Your kids are *WAY WAY* more observant than we adults give credit to. Your daughter clearly sees things that you think she doesn't. She most definitely sees that there is a difference between how you treat her and how you and your wife treat each other.
> 
> Kids are amazingly adept at detecting problems - way sooner than any adult can.
> 
> If your daughter is acting well based upon your current marriage, you need to think about how she would flourish in a relationship where you and your wife genuinely cared and loved one another.
> 
> What's best for the child is *NEVER* settling for good enough. You being a martyr, going on with suffering all sorts of woe and misery, is far worse than divorcing. Your child will one day realize that the only reason you stayed in a completely miserable situation was because of them. Yeah, that's really looking out for their best interest.
> 
> What's truly best is two parents that can love each other and the children together. If that's not possible, then to have two separate parents that love them no matter what. Your kids want you to happy just as much as they want to be happy.


No - adult problems are for adults to solve. Children really have nothing to do with their parents quest for individual fulfillment. How can leaving ones family show a child how to love better or how to be in a relationship? Shucking the kids to seek happiness is a smoke screen. The parent who wants to leave is a noble truth seeker, a shining light to little dependent souls. I'll call it, ...... this is bull sh!t. It's an attempt to salve what should be deep feelings of shame. 

D when there is no abandonment, infidelity, abuse, alcoholism, drug addiction or any other situation that endangers the family, is self-serving when it comes to parental responsibility. IMO. In the afore mentioned situations, the child is happier after D. 

Children are selfish as they should be. They don't care if mom is having sex or dad is doing chores. They don't care if a parent is leaving to find a happier life. They only know that their lives are trashed and their future is forever effected. 

I've never been faced with these hard choices like Trickster has. So I may be wrong. My parents had a bad marriage and my sister and brothers were second hand bystanders. There was still enough good for us to hang onto. D would have devastated us. D for selfish reason is within the norm for our culture but that does not mean that it is right. . 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, happy, healthy kids develop when the parents are happy and healthy in their marriage. The next best scenario is when the parents are happy and healthy - and divorced, perhaps with someone else who can provide the role model of a happy and healthy relationship. After that - sometimes - an unhappily married couple can keep it together to parent well, but I think that distorts the role model of marriage for their children. They will think a poor marriage is normal, and may well repeat those mistakes in their future relationships.
> 
> 
> *I know the importance of role models for a child. My parents argued most night. Many times the fights became physical. After that, my dad didn't hang out at home. Many evenings, we we out while our mom continued to get sloppy drunk at home. Eventually our dad abandoned all of us.
> 
> The last several years have been hell because I tried to change the dynamics of a relationship that I accepted as nkrmal for so many years, until I grew and realized something was martyr. . After 17 year of not drinking, my alcoholic tendencies took over. My daughter never saw me drinking. I am past all that now.
> 
> I worked through my abandonment issues with my wife.In a way, she has abandoned me. I have accepted our platonic relationship for the benefit of our daughter as well as mine. I am not playing the role of a martyr. I could be a little selfish because I don't want to spend my evenings away from her.
> 
> If we had a civilized divorce and we were both financially stable, I would be years away from bringing another woman into my daughters life. I can fantasize that the perfect woman will come around with or without kids herself, and we would be a new happily blended family. Thats not my reality. *
> 
> 
> Of course, it's a little more complicated than that with other factors weighing in. Even worse for children is growing up in poverty, as that can limit their options even more than a "broken" home. So if splitting up - even if the parents are happier and can be good parents - leads to poverty (not just financial limitations), then perhaps it may be better to sacrifice for the children.
> 
> *I know that my wife would not be happier if we divorced. If she was unhappy now, she would be doing everything possible to become independent by going back to school. We don't have enough assets for her to "take me to the cleaners" there isn't anything, except our home. It's also our daughters home until she gets through H.S.
> 
> I am happier now than Six months ago. Six months ago, I was almost suicidal, but I am better now. Thanks to my daughter! The IC helped too. *


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## Trickster

DanielleBennett said:


> Very well said. Children will respond better in situations where the parents are divorced but happy, can get along and be civil, you know. But if they are unhappy in the home and it shows, tension can arise and the child can be unhappy as well and have low expectations of love and marriage.


I have found happiness. I worked hard on the 180 that many here preach about. I found happiness in other areas of my life. That helps me be happier at home.

My wife is happier now that I an not threatening divorce. As long as I pay the bills.

Our daughter will have her own opinion on marriage when that time comes, regardless on what we do. If we start fighting, If I start drinking and get sloppy drunk, If my anger and sadness returns, I would like to believe I would be able to see that and end the marriage. 


Just a few minutes ago, my wife was on the home computer. She was getting aggravated because of the pop ups and was huffing and puffing. Our daughter said, " chill out, its only a computer. Don't let it get to you". I had to laugh a little.

Yes, I feel pretty good today.


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## Trickster

Catherine602 said:


> No - adult problems are for adults to solve. Children really have nothing to do with their parents quest for individual fulfillment. How can leaving ones family show a child how to love better or how to be in a relationship? Shucking the kids to seek happiness is a smoke screen. The parent who wants to leave is a noble truth seeker, a shining light to little dependent souls. I'll call it, ...... this is bull sh!t. It's an attempt to salve what should be deep feelings of shame.
> 
> D when there is no abandonment, infidelity, abuse, alcoholism, drug addiction or any other situation that endangers the family, is self-serving when it comes to parental responsibility. IMO. In the afore mentioned situations, the child is happier after D.
> 
> Children are selfish as they should be. They don't care if mom is having sex or dad is doing chores. They don't care if a parent is leaving to find a happier life. They only know that their lives are trashed and their future is forever effected.
> 
> I've never been faced with these hard choices like Trickster has. So I may be wrong. My parents had a bad marriage and my sister and brothers were second hand bystanders. There was still enough good for us to hang onto. D would have devastated us. D for selfish reason is within the norm for our culture but that does not mean that it is right. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



As much as my parents fought, it devastated me when he left. I wish they could of found some way to work it out. Maybe that wasn't possible. I can guarantee that my dad found a happier life without us. Selfish would be an understatement! He didn't divorce for my benefit, that's for sure. It wasn't a benefit for our mother. Her drinking escalated and she suffered a very slow miserable painful death. I had to witness that. I don't know why our dad let us kids stay in that environment.


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## lurky.lou

This is such a tough situation. Is any of this helpful? 

This article talks about the best marriage advice.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...e/201012/the-best-christmas-gift-stop-divorce

Relationship rescue

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...03/marriage-problems-heres-8-step-rescue-plan
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JJG

I think this is one of those 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situations.

I for one hate it when I read comments like 'Its better for your child to see you happy'. No. It is best for a child to see commitment from their both of their parents to making the family happy.

Obviously you cannot force your partner to put in effort and you cannot keep a marriage together alone, but please don't be flippant about the effect a broken family has on a child.

Every one of my friends who come from divorced parents show the lasting effects to this day. Whether it's the partners they choose, the way they handle conflict or their reaction to big life changes. Im not saying that families who stay together are always the best examples either, but even though my parents have been to hell and back over the years what they have taught me is that family doesn't give up on each other. Family works it out. Family is the most important thing. Those are the lessons that I have taken forward into my family.


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## lurky.lou

I agree with JJG. To say kids are not effected negatively by divorce is to disregard every study ever done on the effects of divorce on kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster

lurky.lou said:


> This is such a tough situation. Is any of this helpful?
> 
> This article talks about the best marriage advice.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...e/201012/the-best-christmas-gift-stop-divorce
> 
> Relationship rescue
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...03/marriage-problems-heres-8-step-rescue-plan
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the links. I've read so many books very similar. I glace over them both. I'll read them more when I have more time.


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## lifeistooshort

TAM isn't necessarily pro staying in an unhappy marriage. It's more accurate to say that TAM is somewhat selective about it.....just look at any thread where a guy isn't getting sex. Heck, if he's not getting sufficiently exciting sex he's told to divorce. Kids don't factor into that one. 

I think life is too short to be miserable, but you do owe it to your kids to at least understand why you're miserable and to make every effort to deal with it. If you've done that consider the example you show your kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster

JJG said:


> I think this is one of those 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situations.
> 
> I for one hate it when I read comments like 'Its better for your child to see you happy'. No. It is best for a child to see commitment from their both of their parents to making the family happy.
> 
> Obviously you cannot force your partner to put in effort and you cannot keep a marriage together alone, but please don't be flippant about the effect a broken family has on a child.
> 
> Every one of my friends who come from divorced parents show the lasting effects to this day. Whether it's the partners they choose, the way they handle conflict or their reaction to big life changes. Im not saying that families who stay together are always the best examples either, but even though my parents have been to hell and back over the years what they have taught me is that family doesn't give up on each other. Family works it out. Family is the most important thing. Those are the lessons that I have taken forward into my family.


I've been on TAM for 4 years now. Our marriage was messed up way before that. I have driven myself crazy trying to improve the dynamics of our relationship. Nothing worked. Each new book, each new change, never brought about the desired response, which made me more frustrated. My wife had zero respose at all. I felt like an immature child who does stupid **** to get the parents attention who ignored them. My wife doesn't seem like she has any real emotions. My FIL passed away several weeks ago and she didn't even shed a tear. Nothing!

I hate the things I have done and I don't like the cold person I have become. There is no way to go back though. How do we move forward?

How can I love somebody so much and hate them at the same time? I think my wife loves me more than an has ever loved anybody. Over the years, she has never expected me to be anything. I came with lots of baggage too. She was there during many hard times in my life. I don't want to throw all that away because she doesn't like sex, never did, and probably never will. How can such a small part of a marriage cause so much frustration?

Is happiness just a decision? If I can just make a decision to be happy around my wife. It's hard to want to give affection knowing that it may never lead to sex. I've spent many years believing that friendship/companionship was the most important part in a marriage. I just surpressed the sex part. Sex was just the frosting and not necessary. 

I am just tired of the games and tired of the "tricks". For now, I think it's in the best interest of our daughter if we stay together. I am definitely not the martyr. Just really skrewed up at the moment. I'll get it together soon.

Thanks everybody for all the advise over the years, even for the idiot threads that I deleted. I wish it was just as easy to delete the stupid **** I have done.


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## DanielleBennett

Trickster said:


> I have found happiness. I worked hard on the 180 that many here preach about. I found happiness in other areas of my life. That helps me be happier at home.
> 
> My wife is happier now that I an not threatening divorce. As long as I pay the bills.
> 
> Our daughter will have her own opinion on marriage when that time comes, regardless on what we do. If we start fighting, If I start drinking and get sloppy drunk, If my anger and sadness returns, I would like to believe I would be able to see that and end the marriage.
> 
> 
> Just a few minutes ago, my wife was on the home computer. She was getting aggravated because of the pop ups and was huffing and puffing. Our daughter said, " chill out, its only a computer. Don't let it get to you". I had to laugh a little.
> 
> Yes, I feel pretty good today.


I'm glad you feel good today and I do hope that everything gets better in the home. Just be honest and open with your daughter, and let her form her own opinions on marriage. Not all of them work out, but when they do they are magical.


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## Trickster

I've spent most of my marriage believing that I was the disfunctionial one who was fortunate enough to find a woman who accepted my childhood baggage. My wife appeared to have a "normal" family, whatever that means. Deep down, I always felt I had to "earn" her love. If I just did a little bit more, perhaps she would love me more. Isn't that what the 5 love language book is all about? It just seemed that I put so much effort into speaking my wife's Love language, while she sat back and enjoy all the hoops.

I am in IC. I hope to find out if I am really as screwed up as I sometimes think I am. How my wife can seem generally happy without and ups and downs, while my moods are like an EKG. She didn't even cry when her dad passed away a few months ago. Then again, she doesn't show her emotions all that much.

Eventually, I know our daughter will realize something is wrong. Maybe she won't notice. My wife thought her parents had a good marriage. She tells me they never showed affection and never saw then kissing passionately or even hugging.That's what my wife learned from her parents.

My SIL (wife's sister) is an attorney. We are about to go over the logistics of divorce. I know who she will favor though. Like FOX news, she could be fair and balanced. Lets hope. My wife is beginning to act like a victim because she is nowhere near being able to financially take care of herself. She claims that even if she goes back to school, the jobs wouldn't pay enough. She has to go back to school, even at 48.

I don't know how to do this without hurting the people I love.


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## wilson

How old is your daughter?

I started the thread Do you regret getting divorced from your amicable but passionless marriage? 3 years ago. I stayed for the kids and I think they have a better life, but I'm not sure my mental cost was worth it. It is very depressing to slog through this marriage day after day. I worry that it has been so long like this I'm not sure I'll be able to mentally be happy again. The kids have almost all graduated, so I might as well stick it out a bit longer.

I look back and think that if I had divorced back then, it would have been hard on the kids, but they would have adjusted. The benefit they experience by us being together is a bit more time together and an easier time with household chores, rides and stuff like that. I think life would be a bit more inconvenient if we were divorced, but I think I would be much happier. 

I look at parents I know who have divorced and it seems like things generally work out okay. The key is that the parents behave like rational people. If you can live together without conflict, then likely you'd be fine as divorced parents too.


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## Happilymarried25

It doesn't sound like you should be in a hurry to divorce. There is no abuse or cheating going on. Stay together until your children are grown during that time you wife can go back to school and find a job and then get a divorce when you children are grown. You won't feel so guilty about leaving your family and your children (who don't know or care what is going on in your bedroom) can grow up in an intact family.


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## 2020hindsight

I can tell you how it went in my own family after our low-conflict marriage bit the dust. My H decided he wanted to free himself from the shackles of responsibility for wife and children, and to live a more fun, carefree, childfree life. He never discussed any of this beforehand with me. He handed down his decision one day and left me in and the children in shock.

To this day, the children don't understand why he left, and neither do I. He did remarry, I think to the woman who was sitting on the first barstool of the first bar he walked into in his new carefree bachelor life. I've only glimpsed this woman once or twice in passing, but the children report that they can't stand her, that she nags him unmercifully and them unmercifully, and that the two of them have no interests in common. Nothing to share as a couple. They can't understand why he chose her of all people. I haven't shared my "first barstool" theory, which is a very likely one, because my former H always hated to shop around for anything (car, house, appliance). He always took the first one he saw. He was always very bad at deferred gratification. 

The consequences of witnessing their father turn away from them and walk off to nothing special, for no particular reason that they can see, is that the world now seems to them a chaotic, dangerous, meaningless place. Marriage and marital "love" seem to them like a cruel joke. They don't believe in themselves or have any confidence in their powers. I try very hard to give them lots of affection and encouragement, but they are deeply cynical about life and have a jaded "what's the point?" attitude toward achievement and self-discipline.

The way they are now is a 180-degree turnaround from how they were before our family blew up. They were full of energy and plans for the future and always cheerful and hopeful. That's all gone now. One is still in her teens, and the other just barely out of them. Their father left 6 years ago.


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## Trickster

2020hindsight said:


> I can tell you how it went in my own family after our low-conflict marriage bit the dust. My H decided he wanted to free himself from the shackles of responsibility for wife and children, and to live a more fun, carefree, childfree life. He never discussed any of this beforehand with me. He handed down his decision one day and left me in and the children in shock.
> 
> To this day, the children don't understand why he left, and neither do I. He did remarry, I think to the woman who was sitting on the first barstool of the first bar he walked into in his new carefree bachelor life. I've only glimpsed this woman once or twice in passing, but the children report that they can't stand her, that she nags him unmercifully and them unmercifully, and that the two of them have no interests in common. Nothing to share as a couple. They can't understand why he chose her of all people. I haven't shared my "first barstool" theory, which is a very likely one, because my former H always hated to shop around for anything (car, house, appliance). He always took the first one he saw. He was always very bad at deferred gratification.
> 
> The consequences of witnessing their father turn away from them and walk off to nothing special, for no particular reason that they can see, is that the world now seems to them a chaotic, dangerous, meaningless place. Marriage and marital "love" seem to them like a cruel joke. They don't believe in themselves or have any confidence in their powers. I try very hard to give them lots of affection and encouragement, but they are deeply cynical about life and have a jaded "what's the point?" attitude toward achievement and self-discipline.
> 
> The way they are now is a 180-degree turnaround from how they were before our family blew up. They were full of energy and plans for the future and always cheerful and hopeful. That's all gone now. One is still in her teens, and the other just barely out of them. Their father left 6 years ago.



I am not the type of man who would walk away from my family. That's something that my dad did. He moved so far away that he never even came to visit. It's like he divorced us kids as well. I know that I am not my dad. I would move next door or a block down the road just to be close to my daughter.

On one hand, my wife seems very sweet. I have my freedom, I can hang out with friends, I can pursue many hobbys, and with our freaky open marriage agreement, she doesn't care if I go out on dates. Although most of the dates we platonic lunch dates with women in my new circles, being married is a definite deal breaker. Yet I still have lunch with several of them. I should feel lucky to have a very long leash. I don't know if my wife is really being sweet though. I still love my wife, but I know she doesn't love me. She just depends on me financially and has no desire to change that. I want what most people want. I want to feel loved. I wish that wasn't important to me. My wife doesn't seem to have that need.

If it was sex that I was after, I would head to the local bar and I would see that woman sitting on that bar stool, just waiting for me.


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## chingchang

Happilymarried25 said:


> It doesn't sound like you should be in a hurry to divorce. There is no abuse or cheating going on. Stay together until your children are grown during that time you wife can go back to school and find a job and then get a divorce when you children are grown. You won't feel so guilty about leaving your family and your children (who don't know or care what is going on in your bedroom) can grow up in an intact family.


...this is bad advice IMHO. There is no abuse...fighting or cheating going on in my marriage...but it is so unfulfilling that it is sucking the life out of me. I don't want divorce, but I've realized after 16 years of marriage that no amount of positive change on my side will result in positive change on her side. She refuses to change by not changing. The advice is...don't try to change her...just accept her the way she is. Well...I do accept her...I just don't want to be married to her if this is who she really is. My children are 11 and 14...I love them and am very involved in their daily lives and they can't get enough of me. They are the main reason I'm still married...after 10+ self-help books, Calle Zorro's bull**** and 4 marriage counselors. If I could do it all over there is no way in hell I'd marry my wife. I love her...respect her and would do anything for her...but she's just not for me...


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## Cara

It is true that staying in a "dead" marriage is not presenting your kids with an honest depiction of a healthy marriage. 

But, what is the alternative? 
-Exposing your kids to shuffling between two homes and two worlds? 
-Forcing your kids to watch your and your ex have a second "single" period where you go through sex partners to explore your new freedom?
-Exposing your kids the much higher potential for abuse that occurs in dating and second marriages, both from the new partner and their step-sibs?
-Raising them to believe that parents do what is best for THEMSELVES rather than toughing it out, behaving like adults and doing what is best for their children?
-Destroying all hope for a normal Christmas for your kids until they are grown with their own family?

These are just off the top of my head, but you get the point. Parents can legally do whatever they want, but if they are divorcing for any reason other than actual abuse they are putting their kids last. 

Believe me, if I thought divorcing wouldn't have a life-altering negative effect on my boys I would've been out the door more than 4 years ago. When I can divorce,(in 10 years) I will be 50. No man worth a damn will want me and I will have spent 19 years married to someone I can barely stand. But, I do this because I love my children more than I love fulfilling my own needs and wants. I do this because it is the right thing to do for them. I make a good home for them, treat their father well and try to keep him as happy as I can so he will treat us well. I am doing what needs to be done to give them a good start in life, it is not really that difficult.


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## Cara

I just reread what I wrote, and I did NOT mean to come off so martyr-ish.

The thing is, life often sucks ass. You have to deal with it and do what is right. 

That was my point. Do what is best for your kids. Only you know what that truly is.


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## Emerald

Cara said:


> It is true that staying in a "dead" marriage is not presenting your kids with an honest depiction of a healthy marriage.
> 
> But, what is the alternative?
> -Exposing your kids to shuffling between two homes and two worlds?
> -Forcing your kids to watch your and your ex have a second "single" period where you go through sex partners to explore your new freedom?
> -Exposing your kids the much higher potential for abuse that occurs in dating and second marriages, both from the new partner and their step-sibs?
> -Raising them to believe that parents do what is best for THEMSELVES rather than toughing it out, behaving like adults and doing what is best for their children?
> -Destroying all hope for a normal Christmas for your kids until they are grown with their own family?
> 
> These are just off the top of my head, but you get the point. Parents can legally do whatever they want, but if they are divorcing for any reason other than actual abuse they are putting their kids last.
> 
> Believe me, if I thought divorcing wouldn't have a life-altering negative effect on my boys I would've been out the door more than 4 years ago. When I can divorce,(in 10 years) I will be 50. No man worth a damn will want me and I will have spent 19 years married to someone I can barely stand. But, I do this because I love my children more than I love fulfilling my own needs and wants. I do this because it is the right thing to do for them. I make a good home for them, treat their father well and try to keep him as happy as I can so he will treat us well. I am doing what needs to be done to give them a good start in life, it is not really that difficult.


I stayed in a bad marriage until my 2 daughters left for college.

I was depressed, miserable, lonely, sad but everyday put on my game face to be a good Mother to my babies that I brought into this world. I took my job as parenting very seriously & it was very important to me that my girls grew up in one home with 2 parents.

Dad was "mean" to Mom sometimes but he was fun and also taught our daughters how to ski, play golf, snowboard, coach their sports teams...many activities he would not have had time for with possibly a new family if I had left him.

I am quoting your post because I want to let you know that I think you are making the right choice. My girls are both college-educated with families of their own. We are both re-married & there is no drama with step-families. You will find at age 50, many nice men who would love to be with a mature nice woman should you decide to divorce.


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## Cara

Emerald said:


> I stayed in a bad marriage until my 2 daughters left for college.
> 
> I was depressed, miserable, lonely, sad but everyday put on my game face to be a good Mother to my babies that I brought into this world. I took my job as parenting very seriously & it was very important to me that my girls grew up in one home with 2 parents.
> 
> Dad was "mean" to Mom sometimes but he was fun and also taught our daughters how to ski, play golf, snowboard, coach their sports teams...many activities he would not have had time for with possibly a new family if I had left him.
> 
> I am quoting your post because I want to let you know that I think you are making the right choice. My girls are both college-educated with families of their own. We are both re-married & there is no drama with step-families. You will find at age 50, many nice men who would love to be with a mature nice woman should you decide to divorce.


I hope you know how much you words mean to me. No one I have expressed my perspective to thinks I have made the right choice for my family. My husband is a really good father. Not perfect, but he is darn close. Taking my kids away from him would be a crime, no matter how unloving my relationship with him is. Thank you for your words, they give me a little spark of hope.


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## Trickster

Well, we are about to sign our divorce decree. Our mediator/lawyer is writing up the papers this week. I am thinking that it should be ready to be signed by Friday. It's not the best for me, but its the best for our daughter. My STBX is getting ths better deal, but with a divorce, there is closure. I am done with our marriage and done hoping we can save it. That ship has sailed. My daughter is my world and she is my priority above my future love life.

Now that we are about to divorce, my wife is exercising, she cooks dinner more and does the dishes, she cleans, and she is doing many of the things I wanted her to do. Why now? After all this, she still wants the intact family for our daughter. She is trying now. There is just no intimacy.no sex. That will never change. 

Why do I feel so bad?


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## sapientia

Yes, if there is truly no conflict (including nasty, unspoken undercurrents), then stay married until the kids grow up.

But be honest with each other for what is to come once the nest is empty.


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## sapientia

Emerald said:


> I stayed in a bad marriage until my 2 daughters left for college.
> 
> I was depressed, miserable, lonely, sad but everyday put on my game face to be a good Mother to my babies that I brought into this world. I took my job as parenting very seriously & it was very important to me that my girls grew up in one home with 2 parents.
> 
> Dad was "mean" to Mom sometimes but he was fun and also taught our daughters how to ski, play golf, snowboard, coach their sports teams...many activities he would not have had time for with possibly a new family if I had left him.
> 
> I am quoting your post because I want to let you know that I think you are making the right choice. My girls are both college-educated with families of their own. We are both re-married & there is no drama with step-families. You will find at age 50, many nice men who would love to be with a mature nice woman should you decide to divorce.


Respect, Emerald. I completely agree.


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## Openminded

You feel bad because it's tough to end a marriage. Divorce is a painful thing for most people. It's not what we envisioned for ourselves. 

She's trying now (except for intimacy) because she probably thinks her efforts will convince you to not end the marriage. 

You're doing the right thing.


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## Grogmiester

Trickster said:


> Well, we are about to sign our divorce decree. Our mediator/lawyer is writing up the papers this week. I am thinking that it should be ready to be signed by Friday. It's not the best for me, but its the best for our daughter. *My STBX is getting ths better deal, but with a divorce, there is closure.* I am done with our marriage and done hoping we can save it. That ship has sailed. My daughter is my world and she is my priority above my future love life.
> 
> Now that we are about to divorce, my wife is exercising, she cooks dinner more and does the dishes, she cleans, and she is doing many of the things I wanted her to do. Why now? After all this, she still wants the intact family for our daughter. She is trying now. There is just no intimacy.no sex. That will never change.
> 
> *Why do I feel so bad?*


It depends on your definition of a better deal. If its monetary ,,, trust me you can't monetarily quantify how much you'll feel better going forward. 

You were in a relationship that wore you down day after day, year after year. A couple of years from now you will look back and say"holy sh!t, I can't believe what a dark place I was in". It will take time but you will feel better as each day goes by. 

You feel bad because you tried so hard to make it work but unfortunately you can't do it by yourself. It will get better.


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## ConanHub

I have a very passionate marriage and there has been plenty of conflict at times.

My boys also witnessed amazing, consistent love and affection.

They saw first hand and now know what to compare to for their relationships.

My oldest is being picky, he has plenty of offers, and my youngest has found a wonderful young woman.

There are many benefits to showing them the right way.

If you believe a sham or lie of a marriage is right, teach your children. They will do the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

P.S. Children have a natural, brilliant learning ability that you cannot fake out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snerg

Trickster said:


> *How does anybody know what our kids will resent when they get older.* If we divorce, I will not being in her life DAILY. We will no longer have our NIGHTLY reading ritual. We will stop our bike rides or it will happen much less. Homework? I enjoy helping her with math homework. I stink at grammar, so her mother helps her with that.
> 
> Even with "normal parents", kids can still have their issues. What about those amazingly loving perfect parents with the perfect marriage? Those parents may set the bar so high that their children never find that type of relationship!
> 
> *Sometimes I think it's narcissistic to divorce if young children are involved. This "we only live once and it should be happy "? IDK it should be what is best for the kids.*
> 
> If the children are unhappy because of the parents behavior, Yes, divorce.
> 
> I still don't know if a divorce would make our daughter happier.


You should never stay just for the children. Kids are way more perceptive than we adults give them credit.

I have a bunch of friends whose parents stayed in a unhappy marriage for the kids. When they got older, they found out that little truth. 

With all my friends, that little bit of truth has caused so many issue in their relationship with the parent. All of them have said they wished their parents would have just divorced instead of being a martyr for them. These are male and female friends btw so the same feelings are across the genders.


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## Openminded

Very true. 

My mother stayed married for me. I stayed married for my son. I wish my mother had left. My son wishes I had left decades sooner than I did.

Children know when their parents don't have a good marriage -- no matter how hard parents try to hide it. And they often blame themselves. I did.


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## Happilymarried25

If your wife doesn't want the divorce she shouldn't signed the papers. It doesn't sounds like you are 100% sure either. You both should hold off on signing the divorce papers until you are both sure, especially since you have a child and you had previously decided to stay until she is out of the house.


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## wilson

I'm in this situation and I originally thought it was better to stay together, but I'm not so sure now. It really depends on if you can keep your spirits up the whole time. If you get depressed about the situation, you're not going to be any fun to be around. It probably would be better to have split households where each person was generally happy.

I've been in this situation for years now and I don't feel like I have any joy about anything. The kids are almost moved out so I might as well hang in a little while longer, but I think I made a mistake staying. I don't think I have clinical depression exactly, but I'm certainly not enjoying life as much as I used to and I'm sure that shows. In my situation, I'm pretty sure everyone would have been better off if we split years ago. No doubt it would be tough during the split, but I think at this moment in time everyone would be happier.


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## Tron

The gravy train is almost gone so she's hoovering. Carry on Trickster until the D is done. 

How did the alimony and CS turn out for you?

I take it that you two still plan to live together and care for D together for the foreseeable future?


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## Satya

Trickster said:


> Now that we are about to divorce, my wife is exercising, she cooks dinner more and does the dishes, she cleans, and she is doing many of the things I wanted her to do. Why now? After all this, she still wants the intact family for our daughter. She is trying now.


This is the result of actions over words and is the primary reason many of us tell posters to act. Nothing relays a message more strongly than actually moving on with your life.


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## Trickster

My wife didn't make any changes until I had a meeting with my lawyer. I was told what was reasonable. Basically, is split everything down the middle. Split the assets, split the debt, equal custody, no alimony or spousal support. 

What may be happening is I will get the house and the equity. I will refi in my name only to pay off the debt. Our mediator told my wife to pay half of the bills. She also told my wife to get a better paying job because eventually she will be on her own. For the first time my wife was scared. My wife was the one who went to college and she is still earning what she did 20 years ago. I was luck to graduatecand somehow, I have my own business and was able to qualify to buy a home on my income alone. My wife had many choices. She chose to quit on job after another. She did this to herself way before our daughter was born. I felt guilty because I allowed it and still married her knowing how she was.

More than anything, my wife wants to continue living together to keep an intact family for our daughter. She is willing to settle for almost anything. We don't hate each other and generally enjoy each others company. There is just absolutely zero intimacy. Since we stopped having sex over a year ago, I've been in a better mood, not counting the initial few months dealing with depression. The IC helped with that and is helping me to move on and not be so dam co-dependent. As far as living together? It's crazy. I don't know if it will work. 

The benefit is we can both see our daughter every day and financially, it would be hard at the moment to pay for two homes. My wife will take classes to improve her work skills, something I've wanted her to do for years.I am giving her more time. It doesn't mean we have to stay married.

Of course nothing is signed yet and she is going to visit her attorney sister this weekend. It all may change. We both agree that we want what is best for our daughter. My love life can wait for now. Divorce is the only way my wife will become independent. So things may stay the same for the short term. We still have minor details to work out, but its looking good.


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## ConanHub

Your wife seems a couple of slices of bologna short of a sandwich.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster

ConanHub said:


> Your wife seems a couple of slices of bologna short of a sandwich.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some of our neighbors say the same thing. 

When she was talking to the mediator she told my wife we should see can IC. My wife told the lawyer that I was already seenping one and that I keep suggesting that she sees one as well. The lawyer wanted to know why she hasn't seen one yet. Especially being that her dad passed away recently and her mom is close. My wife hasn't shed a single tear since her dad passed and no tears while her mom was in ICU... Even with all this divorce process. Not a single tear. This is killing me inside, but I am processing everything with a little help.

So yes, something isn't right with her. I just don't know what it is.


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## Openminded

Does your daughter know you're divorcing but will still live together?

Don't be surprised if your wife changes her mind. She doesn't want a divorce and she doesn't want a full-time job. She especially doesn't want to have to support herself. So I just don't see her signing after discussing this with her sister.


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## Trickster

Openminded said:


> Does your daughter know you're divorcing but will still live together?
> 
> Don't be surprised if your wife changes her mind. She doesn't want a divorce and she doesn't want a full-time job. She especially doesn't want to have to support herself. So I just don't see her signing after discussing this with her sister.


Yes you may be right. My wife is set to inherit some money when her mom passes away. I don't know how much. She even said if there was enough money to buy me out, and she had a better job to lay the bills, she still wants to keep an intact home. 

She wants to be out daughters best friend. She needs to realize she should be a mom first. BTW, my wife doesn't even show any affection to our daughter either.


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## Openminded

Has the divorce been discussed with your daughter?


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## Trickster

Openminded said:


> Has the divorce been discussed with your daughter?


Not yet. I don't know how to discuss that with her. I will discuss that when I see my IC . 


When my parents divorced, he divorced us kids as well. Nothing was discussd. One day, he was gone. I was 7 years old. We didn't see him for years. I was devistated. That's not gonna happen with me. Ever. I wish I knew the right words to tell my daughter.


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## Openminded

You have a more difficult path than most in that you will continue to live together. That's going to be very confusing for her. Hopefully your IC can help with that.


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## Trickster

Happilymarried25 said:


> If your wife doesn't want the divorce she shouldn't signed the papers. It doesn't sounds like you are 100% sure either. You both should hold off on signing the divorce papers until you are both sure, especially since you have a child and you had previously decided to stay until she is out of the house.


My wife and I met almost 24 years ago. We were both relatively new in town and something clicked between the two if us. She just graduated with a bachlors and I just finished 4 years in the Navy. Maybe the two of us needed a best friend. Don't know! She was a virgin at 25 and over the years and I never tried to rush her, so early on, we were never all that sexual. After about a year, we moved in together. Still our relationship wasn't all that sexual. I thought it would improve over time.


For work, I have always been a hard worker. Even as a 10 year old delivering papers on my bike everyday. I was responsible. I have always excelled with all my jobs, until I was offered leadership positions. I always quit because I didn't have confidence. (Childhood issues) It took many years of growth, but now, I have my own business and have for 15 years now. I still work hard to ensure bills are paid and food is on the table.


My wife had her degree. I knew she was trying to find work, but the job market sucked in 92, so she was job hopping alot. I thougt eventually, she would find her passion and have a career. That didn't happen.


I have always been the provider. I learned to cook and I became pretty good at it. I became the main chef over her. Somehow we married and had a child. That gave my wife the perfect excuse to not work. She had Post Pardom and motherhood was a challenge, so along with my career, I helped with cooking, cleaning, laundry, and diaper duty. It was all overwhelming for her.


We moved Alot over the years because nothing was good enough for her. I did my best to make her happy. For some reason, she had this crazy notion we could afford to buy a house and she wouldn't stop pushing the subject until I caved. 



She promised she would get a job.. "I will do anything once we get settled" .So I did my best and somehow the loan was approved on my self employed income. I couldn't believe it. So we bought and after 6 months, she found a job between 7am-2pm, the perfect mom hours. I'd get our daughter off to school and she would be home in the afternoon. Well, she quit after a month.


That's when the $hit storm started. That was the last straw. That when my first real thoughts of divorce hit me. I started drinking again after 17 years of sobriety. My wife never said a word. I started exercising. She never said a word. I stopped drinking again. She never said a word. With all my exercising, my libido increased (or confidence) and sex went from 2-3X a month the about 9-10X a month. She never said a word. I started drinking again. She didn't say a word. I stopped drinking. Never said a word. I joined a hiking group. She nevercsaid a word. I started reading marriage books. No response.


I knew she started to avoid sex, avoid coming to bed and somehow the topic of an "open marriage" was discussd. We even had a written contract witness and signed by a friend. Still she didn't seem all that upset. That was a disaster by the way. She just didn't want sex or intimacy.


I moved to the spare bedroom. No response. I stopped drinking morning coffee with her. No response. I stopped doing her laundry. No response. I stopped making her breakfast. No response. I started seeing an IC. No response. Now, most recently, our real discussion and action discussing divorce. No real response. No emotions no nothing. Yet she still expects me to want to keep the intact family for our daughter. With my disfunctionial childhood, I want the same thing so bad. But this is killing me inside. I know I have my issues and I have made so many mistakes. All I know is my wife doesn't love me. She may like me as a friend, but that's it.


My wife has never been independent. She doesn't know how. Yes, she may want the intact family, but its more than that. If she was unhappy, I would think she would be doing things to better herself financially. She is content and I have no idea how. She will sign divorce papers and give me the house as long as I continue taking care of her. Seems stupid for me to do that!


So, do I want to stay married? NO! There is nothing left to salvage.


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## Openminded

Some women marry for reasons other than love -- generally because they want a man to provide for them. And often they aren't interested in sex so that goes away after marriage. What's left is a roommate situation and many men tolerate that the rest of their lives. That's where you've been for many years. I was one of the posters who told you the contract for an open marriage wouldn't work so I'm not surprised it didn't. She has never wanted a divorce because she wants you to take care of her for the rest of her life. She doubts her ability to find someone else who will so you're it. The guilting about an intact family is really more about her, IMO, than your daughter. She'll still be singing that tune after your daughter's moved out because she never plans to not live with you -- no matter what her inheritance might be. That's the bottom line.


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## reboot

As a child of divorce and now father of two children and a husband struggling to maintain an average marriage after 15 years, here are my two cents why my parents' divorce when I was around 11 was devastating:

1. While the pain of my parents' dysfunction hurt me, losing my father from the house after divorce was like losing a limb. In one sense the pain was gone, but so was the limb along with its pleasures and purpose and ability to balance things out. I was left more in shock than in pain.

2. While my relationship with my father improved and became more intentional as he became my weekend pal, my day-to-day life at home worsened. Not only did I lose my daily father foundation, but also I unconsciously filled the emotional void for my mother and took on guilt about the divorce. Despite her best efforts, she struggled to raise boys and work full-time. My mother suffered from the divorce daily for years, and I soaked that up even though she never complained or talked about it. That hurt me more than seeing my parents' dysfunction when they were married, because at least they were married and there was hope as they were battling it out. Now it was over, dad was gone, and the terminal burden of that reality fell on my shoulders because I lived with it every day. It never occurred to me that I was a victim.

3. Speaking as a boy who lived with his mother after the divorce, puberty was a lower level of awkward hell without dad in the house.

4. Before, during and after my parents' divorce, I went to numerous counselors and family therapists, and none could plumb the depth of my pain or help me understand it in a way that I could shelve it. And why not? My parents, who were full grown adults, could not figure it out, so why should a child be able to? Our culture perpetuates a myth of the wise child who shows up in countless Hollywood films and sitcoms as somehow wiser and more emotionally mature than his parents. It is a load of crap. As a child, I only wanted to feel loved and safe, to play with my toys, and to know Mom and Dad were always right there to hold my hand as I took those scary, awkward steps toward growing up.


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## Trickster

Openminded said:


> Some women marry for reasons other than love -- generally because they want a man to provide for them. And often they aren't interested in sex so that goes away after marriage. What's left is a roommate situation and many men tolerate that the rest of their lives. That's where you've been for many years. I was one of the posters who told you the contract for an open marriage wouldn't work so I'm not surprised it didn't. She has never wanted a divorce because she wants you to take care of her for the rest of her life. She doubts her ability to find someone else who will so you're it. The guilting about an intact family is really more about her, IMO, than your daughter. She'll still be singing that tune after your daughter's moved out because she never plans to not live with you -- no matter what her inheritance might be. That's the bottom line.


You may be right on all of this. I have always been the provider and will be for who knows how long. Before we married, we split for a while and she moved several hours away. She had to fend for herself and after 6 months she wanted to move back in with me. Although I went out with about five women, it wasn't long enough to let another relationship develop. So my platonic friend move back in with me. Stupid me! We had no business getting married. Now, our daughter is the best thing in all the world to me. I don't regret that.

My wife jokingly says that when our daughter goes off to college, she will go with her. I don't know how she will manage that. My wife really needs a life of her own, without me and without our daughter. I am beginning to feel sorry for her. 

I know without me, she will struggle financially. She is using our daughter as an excuse. I wish I didn't care so much about her.


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## Trickster

reboot said:


> As a child of divorce and now father of two children and a husband struggling to maintain an average marriage after 15 years, here are my two cents why my parents' divorce when I was around 11 was devastating:
> 
> 1. While the pain of my parents' dysfunction hurt me, losing my father from the house after divorce was like losing a limb. In one sense the pain was gone, but so was the limb along with its pleasures and purpose and ability to balance things out. I was left more in shock than in pain.
> 
> 2. While my relationship with my father improved and became more intentional as he became my weekend pal, my day-to-day life at home worsened. Not only did I lose my daily father foundation, but also I unconsciously filled the emotional void for my mother and took on guilt about the divorce. Despite her best efforts, she struggled to raise boys and work full-time. My mother suffered from the divorce daily for years, and I soaked that up even though she never complained or talked about it. That hurt me more than seeing my parents' dysfunction when they were married, because at least they were married and there was hope as they were battling it out. Now it was over, dad was gone, and the terminal burden of that reality fell on my shoulders because I lived with it every day. It never occurred to me that I was a victim.
> 
> 3. Speaking as a boy who lived with his mother after the divorce, puberty was a lower level of awkward hell without dad in the house.
> 
> 4. Before, during and after my parents' divorce, I went to numerous counselors and family therapists, and none could plumb the depth of my pain or help me understand it in a way that I could shelve it. And why not? My parents, who were full grown adults, could not figure it out, so why should a child be able to? Our culture perpetuates a myth of the wise child who shows up in countless Hollywood films and sitcoms as somehow wiser and more emotionally mature than his parents. It is a load of crap. As a child, I only wanted to feel loved and safe, to play with my toys, and to know Mom and Dad were always right there to hold my hand as I took those scary, awkward steps toward growing up.



My parents divorced when I was 7. My dad left and I didn't even see him until I was 11. He never once played catch or basketball or anything. Then he left and life was a struggle. I was a very sensitive child to begin with and when he left, it was all my fault. Then my mom died when I was 12 and us kids moved to another state with our dad who didn't even want us there. That's another story though.

My daughter inherited my sensitivity. She is confident and always has been. I don't want her to lose that. I want her to always know and feel that she is loved.


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## mjgh06

@Trickster

I read through this entire post. My heart breaks for you. We have similar spouses. I wish you the best. I really know what you are going through. My main reason for staying is our daughter. I don't know if I could do the D and still live at home around my daughter as if nothing had changed. With my history from childhood, I fear my thoughts would lead me down a self-destructive path again. I have debated D, but I think staying is best for my daughter with hope somehow things with H will get better. 

Did you ever give her an ultimatum during all this? Such as we need more affection or else? If so, did it help at all? I ask because I am contemplating having this discussion with H soon. There is none -0- in our relationship. We have been married 12yrs. I don't know what I would do if he just responded that he didn't love me anymore. 

Please keep posting here with updates. I have subscribed to this thread and will review it often as I go through my own turmoil.

edited: 


> The worst thing is that our daughter never sees us being affectionate. Is that really worse than divorce?


My H doesn't want anyone showing any affection in the home. My 22yo son from a previous marriage is not even allowed to hold hands or sit next to his gf. Although he is a loving father to our daughter. She doesn't feel unloved.


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## mjgh06

opuss said:


> This thread is irrelevant.
> Most people going through a divorce aren't thinking about what's best for the kids.


How has that turned out?
I think most adults today are living with issues from childhood because of just that reason. Should we keep that cycle going?

I am sorry that is how you see it. I think this thread is VERY relevant. That is all I think about. 

When you get married, you are no longer caring just about yourself, you have your spouse. 

When you have children, you no longer care about just your self - you will forever be a parent.

Everything I do in life, now as a parent, I weigh how would this effect my kids, my family. Maybe more marriages could be saved if they stopped putting their needs first....Maybe more children would grow up without hangups if we thought about what is best for the kids first.


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## Trickster

mjgh06 said:


> @Trickster
> 
> I read through this entire post. My heart breaks for you. We have similar spouses. I wish you the best. I really know what you are going through. My main reason for staying is our daughter. I don't know if I could do the D and still live at home around my daughter as if nothing had changed. With my history from childhood, I fear my thoughts would lead me down a self-destructive path again. I have debated D, but I think staying is best for my daughter with hope somehow things with H will get better.
> 
> 
> *I waited a very long time hoping romance would improve. After 23 years it's a lost cause. For a very brief 2 years when I found TAM, sex did increase, but there wasn't any passion. I felt my wife was just complied so I wouldn't leave. I think it just caused more resentments. *
> 
> Did you ever give her an ultimatum during all this? Such as we need more affection or else? If so, did it help at all? I ask because I am contemplating having this discussion with H soon. There is none -0- in our relationship. We have been married 12yrs. I don't know what I would do if he just responded that he didn't love me anymore.
> 
> *We talked about it many times. I think she really tried. About that time the topic of the open marriage came up. That didn't work out all that well. That was just an out for her. The sex stopped completely. The sex was never what I was after.Most here may not believe that. *
> 
> Please keep posting here with updates. I have subscribed to this thread and will review it often as I go through my own turmoil.
> 
> edited:
> 
> 
> My H doesn't want anyone showing any affection in the home. My 22yo son from a previous marriage is not even allowed to hold hands or sit next to his gf. Although he is a loving father to our daughter. She doesn't feel unloved.
> 
> *I have no idea how this will work long term. Our daughter has a ways to go before she graduates. Even then, she may still live at home to get a year or two at a local college. There is a chance that she will want to get the heck away from us. We are both doing what we is in our daughter's best interests. That just happens to be in my wife's best interests.
> 
> We have filed and we are working on our decree, which means nothing unless one of us moves out. *


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## Trickster

Ugggghhh!

Now my wife is starting to cook. She is exercising, losing weight, she volunteered for the Special Olympics, and she is doing many of the things I wanted her to do over the years. She is even visiting her family without my daughter and me. She hasn't done that in 23 years. The biggest change is during her recent Special Olympics. She went with a few female co-workers several hours away. Her first friends in a very long time. I guess they talked about sex after 40/menopause and female stuff. Now she wants to go to the OBGYN to get her thyroid and estrogen checked out.. After all these years of me asking her to go. NOW SHE WANTS TO GO. OMG!

She has always avoided affection because she didn't want it to lead to sex. Too painful. She never cared to lose weight for probably fear I would want more sex.Now that we filed, she is making changes, except for the sex. I think I am done with that. Plus, Its been so long now, I don't think I have a libido anymore.


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## Tron

No surprise there.

She needs someone to take care of her. Finish the D. 

I could see her trying to date you and F your brains out after the D is final.

She is one messed up woman.


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## Catherine602

Trickster Please don't agree to the negative things that are being said about your STXW. She does not deserve that level of disrespect and dishonesty. No matter what, she has been your wife and she will always be the mother of your child. Do you really think she is sick? She is no more mentally deranged than you. Done let your daughter get a hint that you don't respect or that you are contemptuous of her mother.

Your STBX seems to be coming out of a slumber. It's unfortunate that this didn't happen for you two but it is good for her that it is happening. She is doing a 180 and good on her. She may discover that for the first time in her life, she does like sex and she needs the companionship of a comparable man. 

Just because it didn't happen with the only man she has had sex with does not mean that it cannot happen. That would be a win for both of you. She will model to your daughter a woman in a happy heathy relationship with a man. I hope she gets there.

Be happy and supportive just like she has been supportive of you. Dont disrespect her and don't allow anyone else to do so.


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## PieceOfSky

Trickster said:


> Ugggghhh!
> 
> Now my wife is starting to cook. She is exercising, losing weight, she volunteered for the Special Olympics, and she is doing many of the things I wanted her to do over the years. She is even visiting her family without my daughter and me. She hasn't done that in 23 years. The biggest change is during her recent Special Olympics. She went with a few female co-workers several hours away. Her first friends in a very long time. I guess they talked about sex after 40/menopause and female stuff. Now she wants to go to the OBGYN to get her thyroid and estrogen checked out.. After all these years of me asking her to go. NOW SHE WANTS TO GO. OMG!
> 
> She has always avoided affection because she didn't want it to lead to sex. Too painful. She never cared to lose weight for probably fear I would want more sex.Now that we filed, she is making changes, except for the sex. I think I am done with that. Plus, Its been so long now, I don't think I have a libido anymore.




Trickster, 

I've seen similar unprecedented action from my wife, a few times now, when I've conveyed, to an unprecedented degree, just how close to walking away I am.

Not sure if it is this way for you. But for me, it's hard not to feel like such positive "changes" or changes bring with them an obligation -- from me to her -- to stay. But, they don't obligate me to anything, at least according to my set of values and my attempts at logical thinking. Yet, the fact is I tend to feel such an obligation, and it's a suffocating and doom-like experience when I do.

I suppose some of that feeling in me comes from the same place (other?) co-dependency traits come from. And, I suppose, even the healthiest among us still feel guilt and compassion and second-guess when -- finally, after decades -- someone we care about finally starts to take positive action.

But, at the end of the day, she is responsible for her life, and I mine. Altering my behavior with the hope and expectation that doing so has the power to "help" her continue her positive steps -- well, that distorts the truth -- in my mind and possibly hers -- about who is responsible for what. (That distortion, over decades, has probably been one of the most destructive things in our marriage. It has caused both her and I to stagnate, I think.)

But, if one is tempted to effect the other's outcome, one should at least consider the only thing that has motivated the other in decades is what is happening now (the potential for divorce truly happening). Stopping that, especially out of fear, obligation, and guilt, may not be healthy thing for anyone, including the one finally taking action.

One can still be open to the other becoming available for love and (true) reconciliation at some point in the future, even while moving forward with divorce. If lasting change occurs and the attraction revives and sustains, the option to begin again at some future date is still there.

Just thoughts to consider. (And consider the source.... Still here... Still hesitating... Fears controlling my choices... Need a crystal ball....)


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## Trickster

Catherine602 said:


> Trickster Please don't agree to the negative things that are being said about your STXW. She does not deserve that level of disrespect and dishonesty. No matter what, she has been your wife and she will always be the mother of your child. Do you really think she is sick? She is no more mentally deranged than you. Done let your daughter get a hint that you don't respect or that you are contemptuous of her mother.
> 
> Your STBX seems to be coming out of a slumber. It's unfortunate that this didn't happen for you two but it is good for her that it is happening. She is doing a 180 and good on her. She may discover that for the first time in her life, she does like sex and she needs the companionship of a comparable man.
> 
> Just because it didn't happen with the only man she has had sex with does not mean that it cannot happen. That would be a win for both of you. She will model to your daughter a woman in a happy heathy relationship with a man. I hope she gets there.
> 
> Be happy and supportive just like she has been supportive of you. Dont disrespect her and don't allow anyone else to do so.



Thanks Catherine, I always like your logical POV. I don't think my wife is crazy. If anything, she has been the most stable person in my life. She has been there with my childhood baggage. She has been there while most of my family passed away and the sadness from all that. She has been there through my emotional rollercoaster and all the ups and downs. She has never judged me or had any expectations from me. She has always been non responsive and never reacted to my craziness, so we never argue. I guess that is all good. Maybe that is what I needed from her all these years. I no longer expect anything from her.

She has been a friend. I tried to turn it into a romantic relationship and she just went with the flow.

Edit: I probably had contempt before, but not anymore. I think she has been doing her best. I just wish she would of told me years ago that she didn't have romantic feelings for me.


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## Trickster

PieceOfSky said:


> Trickster,
> 
> I've seen similar unprecedented action from my wife, a few times now, when I've conveyed, to an unprecedented degree, just how close to walking away I am.
> 
> Not sure if it is this way for you. But for me, it's hard not to feel like such positive "changes" or changes bring with them an obligation -- from me to her -- to stay. But, they don't obligate me to anything, at least according to my set of values and my attempts at logical thinking. Yet, the fact is I tend to feel such an obligation, and it's a suffocating and doom-like experience when I do.
> 
> I suppose some of that feeling in me comes from the same place (other?) co-dependency traits come from. And, I suppose, even the healthiest among us still feel guilt and compassion and second-guess when -- finally, after decades -- someone we care about finally starts to take positive action.
> 
> But, at the end of the day, she is responsible for her life, and I mine. Altering my behavior with the hope and expectation that doing so has the power to "help" her continue her positive steps -- well, that distorts the truth -- in my mind and possibly hers -- about who is responsible for what. (That distortion, over decades, has probably been one of the most destructive things in our marriage. It has caused both her and I to stagnate, I think.)
> 
> But, if one is tempted to effect the other's outcome, one should at least consider the only thing that has motivated the other in decades is what is happening now (the potential for divorce truly happening). Stopping that, especially out of fear, obligation, and guilt, may not be healthy thing for anyone, including the one finally taking action.
> 
> One can still be open to the other becoming available for love and (true) reconciliation at some point in the future, even while moving forward with divorce. If lasting change occurs and the attraction revives and sustains, the option to begin again at some future date is still there.
> 
> Just thoughts to consider. (And consider the source.... Still here... Still hesitating... Fears controlling my choices... Need a crystal ball....)


"Be the change you wish to see in the world"...

I thought if I made positive changes, my wife would do the same. Most people her say to do the 180 and eventually our spouse will wake up. I made all the changes and I am better from all that I am doing. My wife didnt resond in any way. My STBXW has been there and I agree with you. I do feel an obligation to her. I like that she doesn't have BPD moments like I do. I glad she doesn't drink. I think in a weird kind of way, I am still alive because of her. She needs me as well. So there is a certain amount of co-dependency. It's a hard habit to break.


----------



## jld

Trickster said:


> I just wish she would of told me years ago that she didn't have romantic feelings for me.


Could she have afforded that kind of honesty?


----------



## Trickster

jld said:


> Could she have afforded that kind of honesty?


She had roommates before I came along. I just made thing easier for her. I honestly believe she would be more independent if she didn't have me to depend on back then. I think she would of stayed at her jobs longer rather than quiting all the time. On top of that, her dad was still giving her money. She stopped asking her dad for money when we moved in together.


----------



## Openminded

Sometimes people do wake up when they're about to lose everything. The question always is whether those changes are permanent (and are they too late). 

Are you willing to wait and see if this is real or are you going ahead with the divorce?


----------



## Trickster

Openminded said:


> Sometimes people do wake up when they're about to lose everything. The question always is whether those changes are permanent (and are they too late).
> 
> Are you willing to wait and see if this is real or are you going ahead with the divorce?



We are definitely going to divorce. Extended family knows already and a few close friends. 

For the most part, our marriage has platonic in nature. My mistake was spending so many years pretending it was romantic and resenting my STBX that she didn't love me in the way that I wanted. It became worse when I found TAM because I tried harder to fix something that was unfixable. We will never have a romantic marriage. Ive accepted that. So it is over. At least the marriage is.

We both want to see our daughter every night. I still have our nightly reading time with her and I still help with homework. This is going to be hard. We have 24 years together and it hasn't been horrible. It just lacked romance.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Trickster said:


> For the most part, our marriage has platonic in nature. My mistake was spending so many years pretending it was romantic and resenting my STBX that she didn't love me in the way that I wanted. It became worse when I found TAM because I tried harder to fix something that was unfixable. We will never have a romantic marriage. Ive accepted that. So it is over. At least the marriage is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .






That has been my life for 18 years, in a nutshell. I'm sorry it has been yours. I feel for my wife in a way, at times, because I don't believe she consciously chose thus path and I know she has been miserable as well. Yet, Ifeel resentment for the long term avoidance/stall tactics, and, essentially, the mind f'ck I opened myself to that left me feeling I was inadequate and inferior and deserved this struggle to convince her I could redeem myself somehow -- all the while she did nothing to close the gap, preferring instead to sacrifice anything, including my sanity almost, to keep the relationship ice cold.





I don't think I ever really stood a chance. The last thing she wanted was for me succeed in reviving our romance. It's not all her fault. I was to stupid or fearful or otherwise unwilling to call it for what it was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

Trickster said:


> Ugggghhh!
> 
> Now my wife is starting to cook. She is exercising, losing weight, she volunteered for the Special Olympics, and she is doing many of the things I wanted her to do over the years. She is even visiting her family without my daughter and me. She hasn't done that in 23 years. The biggest change is during her recent Special Olympics. She went with a few female co-workers several hours away. Her first friends in a very long time. I guess they talked about sex after 40/menopause and female stuff. Now she wants to go to the OBGYN to get her thyroid and estrogen checked out.. After all these years of me asking her to go. NOW SHE WANTS TO GO. OMG!
> 
> She has always avoided affection because she didn't want it to lead to sex. Too painful. She never cared to lose weight for probably fear I would want more sex.Now that we filed, she is making changes, except for the sex. I think I am done with that. Plus, Its been so long now, I don't think I have a libido anymore.


Don't expect a miracle. Continue on your course to have a life.


----------



## Trickster

Feeling so dam depressed at the moment and I did this to myself. I no longer know what to do. 

Back in November, I was pretty sure I contracted a STD. My wife and I totally stopped having sex and ended up with a stupid open marriage, so I went out looking for it. I wasn't in the right frame of mind and picked the we wrong women to have sex with. Initially, all the lab work was negative. I was treated with a shot in the butt and a prescription just in case. Mild symptoms persisted and I went to my PCP for more test. Still negative. Had my first physical in over 20 years and all was good. So about a month ago, I got the full Panel STD at Any Lab Test. I was positive for Herpes- 1. The nurse told me that most people have it and just don't know it. I just happen to have it on my pecker. Now I have a blister. Ouch! Not fun at all. I have an appointment with my primary next week to get a script to help lesson the symptoms. This will never go away. 

The ****ed up part of this is that I was never after sex. I wanted to feel loved. I wanted my wife to love me and for her to put some effort into that. After 24 years, I never felt she really loved me. I feel my soul has been crushed. 

This goes way back to my disfunctionial childhood when I didn't feel loved back then. My wife, I believe, saved me all those years ago. I still don't know why she stayed. Although I worked hard, I didn't exactly give her a life of luxury. Maybe she wanted a friend and I was that person.

Our divorce will be final soon marriage, and I have absolutely nothing to offer a woman. My IC wants me to work on changing that negative thought. I am really messed up and I have myself to blame.


----------



## pidge70

Did you not wear a condom?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

Trickster 

You are not being punished for wanting a more fulfilling life. You are learning what to do and what not to do. I've read that a person infected with herpes clears the infection with time and is not in danger of infecting anyone. Google it and learn all you can. 

Your wife did save you and you saved her. At the time that you and your wife met and for many years afterwards, you were good for each other. You inevitably changed and so did she and that's where your paths diverged. 

The childhood neglect reflects on the adults who did not take care of you, not you. Now that you are a father, you can imagine how monstrous it is to abuse a child. Children are so lovable and it is a special evil to mistreat them. A thing that might help is to forgive the people who should have loved you. They were sick and pitiful. That may free you up a bit to handle the down periods of your life.

Right now you are thinking totally negatively which is natural because there is a lot going on in your life. Take a step back and let life just happen. Don't drink. Spend your time planning and building for the future. The herpes will go away and you get a few more months of therapy while you adjust to single life.

All is not lost, one year from now, you will wonder why you felt that way. Hang on.


----------



## Mclane

Trickster said:


> I know there is a bias here on TAM about staying in an unhappy marriage for the kids.


Is there? I read tons of threads about people wanting to get divorced but only a fraction of those bring up the subject of what affect it may have on the children, and when i do occasionally read a thread where the person says they want out of a bad marriage but they're staying "for the children" it seems to me that the person is really just afraid of divorcing because of finances, or the fear of starting all over again with trying to meet someone or a dozen other selfish reasons, and they're just pulling out the old "staying for the children" card because it eases their guilt somewhat.


----------



## Trickster

pidge70 said:


> Did you not wear a condom?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not while receiving oral.


----------



## Trickster

Catherine602 said:


> Trickster
> 
> You are not being punished for wanting a more fulfilling life. You are learning what to do and what not to do. I've read that a person infected with herpes clears the infection with time and is not in danger of infecting anyone. Google it and learn all you can.
> 
> Your wife did save you and you saved her. At the time that you and your wife met and for many years afterwards, you were good for each other. You inevitably changed and so did she and that's where your paths diverged.
> 
> The childhood neglect reflects on the adults who did not take care of you, not you. Now that you are a father, you can imagine how monstrous it is to abuse a child. Children are so lovable and it is a special evil to mistreat them. A thing that might help is to forgive the people who should have loved you. They were sick and pitiful. That may free you up a bit to handle the down periods of your life.
> 
> Right now you are thinking totally negatively which is natural because there is a lot going on in your life. Take a step back and let life just happen. Don't drink. Spend your time planning and building for the future. The herpes will go away and you get a few more months of therapy while you adjust to single life.
> 
> All is not lost, one year from now, you will wonder why you felt that way. Hang on.



I am learning more about Herpes. The woman didn't seem to even know she had it, which I find that hard to believe. I just hope there isn't anything more that just hasn't shown up yet. I don't know if I'll need to get more labs done this coming week. 

The most important lesson is that realized it wasn't sex that I was after. It wasn't by even what I was after with my STBX. Now that we haven't had sex or any affection since September 20014, I don't really miss it. The last couple years when I was assertive with sex, she complied, but that was about it. It never made me feel loved. It almost seems like we are getting along better than we were before. I know I don't feel angry anymore. More importantly, I am no longer getting drunk to numb my pain. 

What I want more than anything is for our daughter to know we she is loved and to never doubt that for a second. She makes it easy. She is so sweet, sensitive, confident, and funny. I don't want that to change.

I thought that I forgave my parents for not giving me the love I craved. Maybe i didn't. Now I realize my wife never gave me the love I craved. Its easy for me to see that it's me that is messed up. Maybe I just created a world to continue the unlove I was feeling as a child. I chose the life I have. Maybe I just didn't love myself all that much. I spent 5 years debating divorce, and now, I am taking steps to change my future. Baby steps!

Thank-you Catherine for taking the time to follow and respond sincerely to my thread.


----------



## Trickster

The thing that really hurts.

- About 5 years ago, I realized my wife didn't love me.

-About 5 years ago, I started drinking again after 17 years of sobriety. My wife said nothing.

-About 5 years ago, I started reading marriage books. My wife said nothing. 

-About 5 years ago, I started exercising and took up jogging. My wife said nothing.

-About 4-1\2 years ago, I became more assertive with sex. Sex increased from 2-3 times a month to 7-8 times a month. She complied. My wife said nothing.

-About 4 years ago, I joined a Meet-Up hiking group which consisted of mostly single people. I was gone the whole day many times. My wife said nothing.

-About 4 years ago, I started having lunch dates with my lady friends, mostly work related. My wife said nothing.

-About 3- 1\2 years ago, I stopped drinking and started going to. A.A. My wife said nothing.

-About 3 years ago, I started on and off again drinking. My wife said nothing.

-About 3 years ago, we discussed having an open marriage. My wife excitedly agreed to that.

-About 2-1\2 years ago, I started having my morning coffee in another room, sometimes outside. My wife said nothing. 

-About 2 years ago, I stopped making breakfast for the two of us and she made her own. I don't eat breakfast much these days. My wife says nothing.

-About 2 years ago, we entertained the idea of divorce. My wife said almost nothing.

-About 1-1/2 years ago, I stopped washing her laundry. My wife said nothing.

-About that time, sex dwindled to once a month. My wife said nothing.

-About 1-1/2 years ago, I moved to the spare bedroom and sex totally stopped. My wife said nothing.

-About 1 year ago, I stopped making dinner like I did for so many years. My wife said nothing.

-About 1 year ago, I started meeting woman romantically. I know my wife knew. She said nothing.

-About 6 months ago, I contracted some form of STD. All the initial test were negative. Over the next several months, I continue with additional labs and still negative. I Haven't had any form of sex with anybody.

-About 6 months ago, I started seeing an IC. My wife said nothing.

-About 5 months ago we legally filed.

-About a month ago, I tested positive for Herpes-1. I am afraid there could be more.

Tomorrow, I am taking my results to my doctor and possibly additional testing and medication to lesson my symptoms. Don't know what to expect. I haven't told my wife anything. Why bother? I have one male friend close enough to talk to and he knows everything. My counclor knows everything as well. At the moment, I haven't been drinking alcohol, but I want to, I really do. . I feel so crushed and my wife doesn't say a word. I am a freaken mess.


----------



## CMD1978

My kids (preteens) are understandably not happy that their father is going to jail. They have however told me that life is easier with him not living with us. In general we did not have a high conflict marriage. But there was a lot of tension that is now gone because we are no longer walking on eggshells worrying about what might set him off. Not that there was ever a lot of yelling and screaming. He just pouted and sulked and gave us the silent treatment on a regular basis if he didn't feel like he was getting his own way. I'm just starting to realize a lot of his behavior was probably withdrawal symptoms since he told me he wasn't using when he was at home. So he was either in a bad mood or looking for excuses to get out of the house to go somewhere he could get high.

I will divorce him primarily because of the kids if his behavior doesn't improve after jail and rehab. But if he truly cleans up his act I'm willing to give him another chance if he cuts all ties to the friends who were a part of his private "user" lifestyle.


----------



## Trickster

CMD1978 said:


> My kids (preteens) are understandably not happy that their father is going to jail. They have however told me that life is easier with him not living with us. In general we did not have a high conflict marriage. But there was a lot of tension that is now gone because we are no longer walking on eggshells worrying about what might set him off. Not that there was ever a lot of yelling and screaming. He just pouted and sulked and gave us the silent treatment on a regular basis if he didn't feel like he was getting his own way. I'm just starting to realize a lot of his behavior was probably withdrawal symptoms since he told me he wasn't using when he was at home. So he was either in a bad mood or looking for excuses to get out of the house to go somewhere he could get high.
> 
> I will divorce him primarily because of the kids if his behavior doesn't improve after jail and rehab. But if he truly cleans up his act I'm willing to give him another chance if he cuts all ties to the friends who were a part of his private "user" lifestyle.


With all my on and off again drinking, my wife never said a word. I was never drunk to the point that she seen it as a problem. I still worked, still was the provider, I still read every night to my daughter. 

I wish my wife would of said something, anything to address our issues. I did so much around the house in addition to being the only provider. She was and still is lazy. Yet, she still doesn't respond in any behavior or sadness. It could of been so easy to remedy 5 years ago. She was the emotionally stable one. At least that's what I thought.


----------



## Tron

Trickster said:


> I wish my wife would of said something, anything to address our issues. I did so much around the house in addition to being the only provider. She was and still is lazy. Yet, she still doesn't respond in any behavior or sadness. It could of been so easy to remedy 5 years ago. She was the emotionally stable one. At least that's what I thought.


I'd say she was more like an emotional void.


----------



## Openminded

Passive, yes. Very. 

Emotionally stable, no. Definitely not.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Trickster said:


> With all my on and off again drinking, my wife never said a word. I was never drunk to the point that she seen it as a problem. I still worked, still was the provider, I still read every night to my daughter.
> 
> I wish my wife would of said something, anything to address our issues. I did so much around the house in addition to being the only provider. She was and still is lazy. Yet, she still doesn't respond in any behavior or sadness. It could of been so easy to remedy 5 years ago. She was the emotionally stable one. At least that's what I thought.


This should have ended 5 years ago. What is the point of staying with someone who you know doesn't love you? Talk about self abuse. After all this time, I am glad to see you finally moving on Trickster, I know I have been one of those here pushing you to do so. As far as your diagnosis goes, from what I have read before, the HPV1 strain is the one that causes cold sores and if you get it on the genitals, once you clear it up, it doesn't usually recur. It isn't the life sentence that the HPV2 strain is.


----------



## jb02157

I kind of had the same experience as the OP. After more than 25 years of marriage I feel like an empty soda can. I've been pumped out of all my useful contents (money and soda) now she feels since I don't have anything left, she doesn't have to be a wife and partner anymore just be one who just happens to occupy the same house I do.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Trickster said:


> The thing that really hurts.
> 
> - About 5 years ago, I realized my wife didn't love me.
> 
> -About 5 years ago, I started drinking again after 17 years of sobriety. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 5 years ago, I started reading marriage books. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 5 years ago, I started exercising and took up jogging. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 4-1\2 years ago, I became more assertive with sex. Sex increased from 2-3 times a month to 7-8 times a month. She complied. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 4 years ago, I joined a Meet-Up hiking group which consisted of mostly single people. I was gone the whole day many times. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 4 years ago, I started having lunch dates with my lady friends, mostly work related. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 3- 1\2 years ago, I stopped drinking and started going to. A.A. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 3 years ago, I started on and off again drinking. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 3 years ago, we discussed having an open marriage. My wife excitedly agreed to that.
> 
> -About 2-1\2 years ago, I started having my morning coffee in another room, sometimes outside. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 2 years ago, I stopped making breakfast for the two of us and she made her own. I don't eat breakfast much these days. My wife says nothing.
> 
> -About 2 years ago, we entertained the idea of divorce. My wife said almost nothing.
> 
> -About 1-1/2 years ago, I stopped washing her laundry. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About that time, sex dwindled to once a month. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 1-1/2 years ago, I moved to the spare bedroom and sex totally stopped. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 1 year ago, I stopped making dinner like I did for so many years. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 1 year ago, I started meeting woman romantically. I know my wife knew. She said nothing.
> 
> -About 6 months ago, I contracted some form of STD. All the initial test were negative. Over the next several months, I continue with additional labs and still negative. I Haven't had any form of sex with anybody.
> 
> -About 6 months ago, I started seeing an IC. My wife said nothing.
> 
> -About 5 months ago we legally filed.
> 
> -About a month ago, I tested positive for Herpes-1. I am afraid there could be more.
> 
> Tomorrow, I am taking my results to my doctor and possibly additional testing and medication to lesson my symptoms. Don't know what to expect. I haven't told my wife anything. Why bother? I have one male friend close enough to talk to and he knows everything. My counclor knows everything as well. At the moment, I haven't been drinking alcohol, but I want to, I really do. . I feel so crushed and my wife doesn't say a word. I am a freaken mess.


Trickster,

I hear your pain, or a least think I can hear similar echoing between my past and present. 

I'm going out on a limb with a guess.

It sounds like you, or a very precious and vulnerable part of you, needed your wife show that you are loved and worthy of being loved, that you were "enough" in your marriage years, and have been since day one. Sadly, your wife couldn't do that for you -- not because you are not lovable or worthy, but because it is not something one can 100% continuously do for another; and, because traits and behaviors that might have left you feeling loved or at ease with yourself much of the time (say, an insatiable appetite for physical intimacy) simply were not in her nature.

I remember your description of your childhood. I can't imagine anyone from such a background not having a strong need for visibility and empathy and nurturing love from another. I can only imagine when it doesn't flow easily from the one we had come to expect it from, the pain is far beyond what other adults would feel -- exactly because the absence of secure love and attachment in childhood literally starts to resonate in one's brain.

This occurs to me because I have felt it myself. Yet, I say that feeling uncomfortable that my childhood ended well, and much healing in my parents lives has since occurred. The void was established when we were children. How else could we end up?

I've heard over and over that as an adult, one can help that longing child inside feel loved -- but one can only do that for oneself; seeking it in another usually doesn't work out. To some (including myself at times) that notion feels like cliche psychobabble. Yet, most of the time it rings true to me.

I'd guess you've heard of that line of thought. Do you see, perhaps, you were seeking from your wife something in a perfect world you would have gotten in childhood -- conviction that you are ok and worthy of love, and that truth depends on no one in particular, nor how they treat you? Does it seem,at least, possible?

The good news I believe anyways is when one sees that as the root of the problem, one can begin steps to ultimately build that conviction missing from childhood. 

T, you are a kind and decent person. I have read your posts now for a couple years. Don't give up on yourself. Don't fold and chuck it all away by choosing to numb with drinking (stop if you have).

There is someone just as precious to you as your daughter who needs you to learn and show you are worth it. Someone inside.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trickster

PieceOfSky said:


> Trickster,
> 
> I hear your pain, or a least think I can hear similar echoing between my past and present.
> 
> I'm going out on a limb with a guess.
> 
> It sounds like you, or a very precious and vulnerable part of you, needed your wife show that you are loved and worthy of being loved, that you were "enough" in your marriage years, and have been since day one. Sadly, your wife couldn't do that for you -- not because you are not lovable or worthy, but because it is not something one can 100% continuously do for another; and, because traits and behaviors that might have left you feeling loved or at ease with yourself much of the time (say, an insatiable appetite for physical intimacy) simply were not in her nature.
> 
> I remember your description of your childhood. I can't imagine anyone from such a background not having a strong need for visibility and empathy and nurturing love from another. I can only imagine when it doesn't flow easily from the one we had come to expect it from, the pain is far beyond what other adults would feel -- exactly because the absence of secure love and attachment in childhood literally starts to resonate in one's brain.
> 
> This occurs to me because I have felt it myself. Yet, I say that feeling uncomfortable that my childhood ended well, and much healing in my parents lives has since occurred. The void was established when we were children. How else could we end up?
> 
> I've heard over and over that as an adult, one can help that longing child inside feel loved -- but one can only do that for oneself; seeking it in another usually doesn't work out. To some (including myself at times) that notion feels like cliche psychobabble. Yet, most of the time it rings true to me.
> 
> I'd guess you've heard of that line of thought. Do you see, perhaps, you were seeking from your wife something in a perfect world you would have gotten in childhood -- conviction that you are ok and worthy of love, and that truth depends on no one in particular, nor how they treat you? Does it seem,at least, possible?
> 
> The good news I believe anyways is when one sees that as the root of the problem, one can begin steps to ultimately build that conviction missing from childhood.
> 
> T, you are a kind and decent person. I have read your posts now for a couple years. Don't give up on yourself. Don't fold and chuck it all away by choosing to numb with drinking (stop if you have).
> 
> There is someone just as precious to you as your daughter who needs you to learn and show you are worth it. Someone inside.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All of what you stated could be true. I see the similarities as a child trying to earn love from my mother with acts of service. Nothing I did increased affection from my mother. It is interesting that I had the same dynamics with my STBX. Even more is why I chose a woman like that in the first place and even more, why I stayed so long. My mother passed away when I was a child, so I never had to make the decision to leave. 

My mother was somewhat helpless after my dad left us. I am trying hard to not feel responsible for my wife. It's easier said than done. I wish I could hate her or she was a horrible person so I could justify this divorce.


To love ourselves? OMG. That's a tough one. It's not black and white. I know the roots of my dysfunction. I am close to 50 years old and still, my behavior is effected by my childhood. I acted out as a child to get attention or just some response which never happened . I did the same with my behavior with my wife. It's like a subconscious game I was playing. Maybe that's the "Trickster" part of me. 

I did this to myself. I have myself to blame.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blame doesn't get you anywhere. Probably makes you even more stuck. Can you just accept that you were doing what you were equipped to do at the time, and, well, it wasn't what was needed? Does it have to be anyone's fault. For me, there's freedom and relief sometimes from framing it like this: It just was.

Yes, you are close to 50 and still your behavior is effected by your childhood. Same here. Same everywhere. That's the way were are made. No shame in that. No escaping what's that meant in the past. However, once someone starts to understand and accept that childhood affects us in ways we hadn't realized, there becomes a chance for a real and sustainable change. Lots of people manage to do it. Just my humble opinion, Trickster, but you seem like a thoughtful enough and honest-enough-with-yourself sort of person, you can manage to do it too.

The really unlucky ones are the ones oblivious to roots of dysfunction, or too scared or in too much despair to get any traction or even believe change is possible.


----------



## Catherine602

Can you forgive your wife and parents? They did the best they could. They were horrible people but they were probably products of similar horrors to what you experienced. You broke the cycle though, your daughter who is happy and healthy. 

I forgave my parents 2 yrs ago. The burden of ruminating about my childhood is slowly being lifted from me. It is often said that forgiveness is for the giver and I feel that is true. There is no way to get back what was denied to you in childhood. But there is someone who is always there waiting to love you. 

Imagine the teen you sitting on a bench. The adult you comes along and sits with him and he begins to tell you all of the things you listed above. What would you your adult self say? How would you feel for him? Would you not comfort him and embrace him with love? 

My IC asked me to do an exercise - take all the bad memories of may childhood and put them in a file draw in my head and lock it. I could, if needed, unlock it and review things but do so infrequently. 

It really helped me. I got nothing out of ruminating about my past. Nothing changed and I understood no better after trying for many years. 

The step to D is monumental for you. Not just in the changes it brings in your life but the shift in what you feel about yourself and what you expect in life. It's hard but also see the good in it. You value yourself much more and you are showing signs of having faith that you can handle change. 

Now you need to work on comforting and loving that child in you. Forgive him, it was not his fault, he was lovable all along. He had the misfortune of having parents who didn't love themselves and were incapable of loving such a lovely soul. I feel sorry for them, they missed out on a relationship with a loving son.


----------



## Trickster

Catherine602 said:


> Can you forgive your wife and parents? They did the best they could. They were horrible people but they were probably products of similar horrors to what you experienced. You broke the cycle though, your daughter who is happy and healthy.
> 
> *I don't believe my parents were horrible people. I know I did before. They said and did horrible things, but there must have been some good in them because I have good in me. It took a long time for me to find it in me. My wife isn't horrible either. Yes, she doesn't love me in the way that I wanted her to, just like my parents didn't love me in the way I wanted them to either.
> 
> My STBXW is still sweet. As mean as I've been over the past few years, she still has that beautiful smile on her face. We still don't fight and we never did. We still don't even argue. I don't know about forgiveness, but I can accept the friendship she is still offering. This divorce hurts. A huge part of me is dying. I may lose the one person who knows me better than anybody, she may know me better than I know myself. I fear it is too late for me to show my daughter what a loving affectionate marriage is all about. *
> 
> 
> I forgave my parents 2 yrs ago. The burden of ruminating about my childhood is slowly being lifted from me. It is often said that forgiveness is for the giver and I feel that is true. There is no way to get back what was denied to you in childhood. But there is someone who is always there waiting to love you.
> 
> *I don't know about forgiving my parents, but I have accepted all that happened all those years ago. I will get there, just you wait. *
> 
> Imagine the teen you sitting on a bench. The adult you comes along and sits with him and he begins to tell you all of the things you listed above. What would you your adult self say? How would you feel for him? Would you not comfort him and embrace him with love?
> 
> 
> *I would say to my younger self "you are worthy of love. Love is all around you if you allow it to flow in your direction instead of building a dam to block the flow". *
> 
> 
> My IC asked me to do an exercise - take all the bad memories of may childhood and put them in a file draw in my head and lock it. I could, if needed, unlock it and review things but do so infrequently.
> 
> It really helped me. I got nothing out of ruminating about my past. Nothing changed and I understood no better after trying for many years.
> 
> 
> * You're right, I will stop allowing my past to keep me down. *
> 
> The step to D is monumental for you. Not just in the changes it brings in your life but the shift in what you feel about yourself and what you expect in life. It's hard but also see the good in it. You value yourself much more and you are showing signs of having faith that you can handle change.
> 
> Now you need to work on comforting and loving that child in you. Forgive him, it was not his fault, he was lovable all along. He had the misfortune of having parents who didn't love themselves and were incapable of loving such a lovely soul. I feel sorry for them, they missed out on a relationship with a loving son.
> 
> 
> 
> *I wish my parents were still alive. I had many good moments with my Dad. It unfortunate that all that was eclipsed by the bad. I wish they could see how amazing their granddaughter is. They missed out. They really did. *


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