# Am I out of options?



## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

I'm 22 yo. I've been married to my wife for over a year now. She has a 5 year old (now my step-daughter) and we just welcomed a 3 month old to the family. For the first month of our marriage everything was fine. Until she came down with some depression which she claimed was because of the move and the new life (that she wanted; we both did).

I was in the military for the past couple of years so marrying each other resulted in her moving from the central to the east coast. She couldn't wait to move. Though about a month later things went south.

Because she says she suffers from anxiety and depression, every day or every other day (2 days of peace time, at a time, at most) was me coming home to her in an awful mood. It resulted in petty arguments, anger towards me and her daughter, etc. I thought for the first 3 months or so that okay maybe she's adjusting to the move and the new life. I was incredibly patient and during those arguments/disputes I would talk as kindly and as calmly as I could to try to soothe her, comfort her, and make her feel loved.

Looking back, it never worked. For the next year and 3 months this continued. I hope you all don't think I was coming home to argue with her. That's not remotely true. I try my best to live by a code that's honest, sincere, and simple. That means I'm not one for exaggerated claims, lies, and drama. I told my wife this the first week I met her and she acknowledged.

Granted, I'm not perfect. I'm a human too and the mistakes I've (believed I've) made are accounted for and have been resolved. They were small mistakes, none big. To give more context on what ensued here are some examples.

The first few weeks when we moved in, she had terrible trust issues. No matter if I worked 17 hour days and came home exhausted, that 20 minute drive home was apparently a window for me to cheat. Moreover, mostly anything I tried to share with her she called "weird"; or called it weird that I liked such a thing. Things I would try to share were music, music videos, video games, books, art, etc. But because there was a female in what I shared with her, she called it weird.

If I looked at anything with a female in it she would visibly get upset and become short with me. I quit a few hobbies in order to not have the days get worse. It obviously made me feel awful to be called weird so early on in the relationship simply because anything I interacted with contained a person of the opposite sex.

This went on even until my transition out of the military. At 14 years old I set a goal which was to become a software developer because I started learning a programming language that young. I have no college experience and the only professional career has been the military. I struggled with my leadership to get into a class that allowed me to learn more skills, practice for interviews, etc. I was invited to Washington state for a second interview with Microsoft for the hard work that I put in. My friends and family were ecstatic and proud because they know that's what I wanted to achieve. What was my spouse's response? She forced half a smile and silently go back to what she was doing. Not one word. What was she thinking about? There would be women where I work in the future. Days later she mentioned she also felt left behind because people her age were getting the careers they wanted. I got one semi-forced "I'm proud" days later.

During the entire transition, and for over 300 days now, I've functioned off of 2-4 hours a sleep a day. My routine was this: Wake up at 5, physical training, work till 6-8pm (or 9, 10, 11, or 24 hours), come home, cook dinner for the family (wife was pregnant and bed-ridden for a while so I did this explicitly however we usually both cook), clean the house, spend time with my daughter, and study as much as I could before my wife became subtly upset about me being on the computer instead of with her (which I always try to do so in fact my time on the computer was drastically reduced so that I spend time with my family, and of course to avoid the negative responses), and then endure whatever argument my wife had conjured for that night. It still baffles me we even have them. I'm overwhelmed at the thought that I have no idea where they come from. One argument lasted till 5am. Which means I got home, did the routine, endured the argument, and went right back to work. This cycle was repeated for months. It resulted in 2 awful sleep terror episodes.

It got to the point where I searched online to see if it was normal to endure this much emotional abuse and damage. Apparently it's not. Regardless if whether or not she suffers from anxiety or depression, I don't believe those are reasons to act nasty and cruel to me or people around her. I try to set boundaries and tell her to please quit talking to me the way she does. Her responses: "No." "I can do whatever I want." "If you don't like it, then leave" Or she gets even more pissed off.

Recently it's gotten worse. Our 3 month old had a week where she would not stop crying. Shortly after I came home and we had a discussion about it. She sends me texts everyday whenever our daughter starts crying either for food, because she's tired, etc. My wife gets angry, sometimes livid and texts me her frustration. She loves to use the word "unhappy" a lot. The discussion that followed was her breaking down because she couldn't handle daily living anymore. She is not content with dealing with anxiety every day (she's refused counseling and treatment the dozens of times I suggest it) and of course dealing with our daughter. She then became suicidal and didn't know what else to do.

I was there for her and suggested many viable options. Daycare, babysitter, take a break from this. It was no to everything.

Yesterday we had the biggest argument yet. I got home and again she was upset because she had a bad day. Because our daughter prevented her from "doing anything" such as cleaning, studying photography, etc. Later that night she continued her usual name calling, yelling, cussing, etc. I've tried to stay resilient for a very long time but I feel like I've now broken.

I've never seen her act like that. She came downstairs to ask if I am happy with our marriage. I answered honestly that I didn't know. That if it'll be like this every day no matter our attempts to fix things (I did try to sit her down before and fix things), then of course I won't be 100% happy.

The result for the entire night from me saying I'm not 100% happy was:
*Nothing is good enough for you.
*You make me feel like ****, OP.
*Don't be surprised if you come home one day and I'm on the floor dead (almost called the cops on that one to be honest because she says that often and I don't want my children around that)
*You broke my heart
*Things will never be the same
*You did a lot of damage
*You don't love me

I only wanted to be heard but that didn't happen.

I tried to give my family everything. My family and friends tell me often they are impressed with how I've overachieved as a husband and father.

Here are solutions I suggested:
*Marriage counseling - she refused because "she hates people"
*As simple as stopping ourselves in our tracks the moment an unnecessary argument is about to arise. - May not have been the greatest solution but its worth a shot.
*Writing down our issues instead of talking about them because our communication obviously isn't the best.

Ultimately I want whats best for our children. Our 5 year old already cries every time she hears my wife yell. Children growing up in this environment doesn't seem healthy. I will get professional help no matter what, at least to help me cope with this bundle of emotions. But I want to know what a community of experienced individuals think is my best plan of action. I truly want to be there for her and be with her through everything and have a happy family. But what's the point if my happiness, and our children's happiness, will dwindle throughout the entire journey?

I'm not sure what to do.

**Edit**
As a disclaimer, we decided to have another child at a young age in order to make our future years easier.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

You've taken on too much for a 22 year old. You are married. You have a stepchild & a newborn. You are also working full time and moving your career ahead. Does your wife work & how old is she?

I was your age when I married. My husband was two years older. We both had demanding careers & I worked full-time in teaching & attended graduate school at night. We elected not to have children (discussed before we got married) as we both wanted a comfortable life and one in peace. My husband cannot stand chaos and above all, yelling. That was 37 years ago. We are still married & have reached our primary goals: early retirement, house paid for, and no debts.

Your wife needs medical help. You need to take her to your primary physician and asked for a referral to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist works in tandem with a psychologist. Your wife must agree to work on herself and your marriage to make it work. She has huge problems as demonstrated in her behavior.

OP, what are your goals in life? Is this the married life that you've envisioned? You might need to see a psychologist yourself to set your mind in the right direction. Really sorry you are here for such a young age.


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

Your wife needs to get over herself. I'm sorry you're married to that.

I hope you can find a way to divorce her and get your daughter and move on.


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

My wife currently does not work and she is 21. She never knew what she wanted to do in life until I suggested photography. I saved up and bought her her first camera and she is going through an accredited online course now. She just started actually. I will say she did appreciate me helping her get started with that. The first week she was happy. But now she's back to her usual mood especially because of our youngest.

Thank you for showing me there is still hope. It stabilizes a lot of my emotions knowing that anything can happen so long as we both want it to.

I have tried suggesting a psychiatrist, I have. We finally had an appointment scheduled but she cancelled it last minute in order to "save money".

We are great financially even if I am the sole supporter of 4 and a 3-story house which is incredibly affordable. I'm careful with finances. The most I buy for myself ever is water or beef jerky. The only reason we only struggled last month and this month is because I want to save for an emergency fund. I stress savings because I learned from my parents who worked incredibly hard to support my sister and I. Moving and buying new furniture for some reason drained my 11k savings account in a month. She wanted new furniture. Now I'm attempting to build it back up. For her that means "if I save money from cancelling this appointment, we'll have more shopping money." I know by the way she talks.

I've bought her CBD oil which has worked surprisingly well to combat her intrusive thoughts and thanatophobia (fear of death). But we still have those every day situations.

My aspirations were to become a software developer after the military. I just began my new career. My current goals are to learn as much as I can every day, no matter it be a skill or a new topic that I don't know about. Knowledge is important to me and I wish to learn from all experiences gained in life.

It was at first. But now it's steered an entirely different direction that I do wish we can come back from. What I fear is that we won't be able to or that my happiness will never return from before, which in turn affects our children. I do plan on seeing a professional and thank you for the support. I take partial blame for choosing to marry young as well.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

pseudo-nymous said:


> When I was 14 my aspirations were to become a software developer no matter what after I have served in the infantry and jumped out of planes.


Cool! I worked as a programmer for 25 years at a major semi-conductor company. Now I'm working on my own game project.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

You made a bad decision in having a baby early in the marriage to get it over with. Obviously your marriage is doomed so the only choice is to endure it or divorce. I will never understand how men and women marry people who they do not know well enough to commit to something that is a lifelong contract and expensive to break. People rarely change so what you see is what you get when you marry. Problem is that love blinds us to each other's faults and why long engagements are best and then a 2-3 year wait for kids is prudent. Romantic love fades after a few years and then you both view each other with warts and all. That is when you decide to stick together or not. If you rush things and make commitments and babies while still under the effects of romantic love, you will be seeing things differently once it wears off.

https://www.today.com/health/how-long-does-passion-last-four-stages-love-t108471

I believe that it is more harmful to raise a child in a loveless dysfunctional marriage than to divorce. Staying together for the sake of the kids often does more harm than good. Half of our kids come from divorced parents and do just fine. The dysfunction people I know came from families where the mother and father did not love each other, were abusive, etc. because they did not believe in divorce.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Your wife might have post partum depression.

It isn't uncommon and it is treatable.

She needs to see a specialist.


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## xMadame (Sep 1, 2016)

I second the post partum depression.

She needs professional help and soon. Do not let her cancel appointments.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

Your wife may have borderline personality disorder. It sounded familiar to me, especially the exaggerated fear of abandonment and the ridiculous notions of "other women" that you'll be around or are thinking about all the time. I'm 95% certain that my wife has it and it basically ruined our marriage. @Uptown can explain it very well, and I would encourage you to visit websites like bpdfamily.com as well. In any case, you guys can't fix this yourselves. She needs professional help.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Pseudo, I agree with @*Ghost Rider *that you are describing warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Specifically, the suicide threats, verbal abuse, controlling actions, temper tantrums, black-white thinking, always being "The Victim," inability to trust, and rapid flips between Jekyll (loving you) and Hyde (devaluing you) -- are classic warning signs for BPD. Importantly, I'm not suggesting that she exhibits full-blown BPD (only a professional can determine that). Rather, I suggesting that she may be exhibiting moderate to strong traits of BPD. 

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits them at a strong level (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum). 

If her BPD symptoms are strong, a second important issue is whether they are persistent year after year. Most BPD behavior in the general population is NOT a persistent, lifetime problem. Instead, it consists of temporary flareups of the normal BPD traits we all have. Those flareups are usually caused by drug abuse or hormone changes (e.g., puberty, pregnancy, postpartum, PMS, perimenopause, or any other life event starting with the letter "p," LOL). Because some of those hormone changes can last 2 or 3 years, the temporary BPD flareups can last that long.

In contrast, the persistent lifetime disorder is believed to be firmly entrenched in the mind during early childhood (usually by age 5). And the resulting BPD symptoms usually start showing very strongly in the early teens -- and persist thereafter unless the BPDer undergoes several years of intensive therapy.

Not having met her, I cannot tell you whether your W's BPD symptoms are strong or persistent. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as suicide threats, verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and irrational jealousy. I also believe you may learn how persistent her BPD symptoms have been by talking with her family members and close friends.



> For the next year and 3 months this continued.


Given that your baby is 3 months old, your W became pregnant 12 months ago. Hence, your statement implies that her abusive behaviors, depression, and anxiety started at least 3 months before she got pregnant. This suggests that PPD (postpartum depression) is an unlikely cause unless she's had PPD for five years, i.e., since the birth of her first child. Granted, that is a possibility -- so it would be prudent to have her hormone levels checked by a specialist, as @*MattMatt* and @*xMadame* suggest. 

It seems very unlikely, however, that PPD would last for several years and then disappear during the 6 or 12 months of your courtship period -- only to surface again right after your wedding. I say this because PPD is driven by hormone changes that alter body chemistry. Those chemical changes likely would persist during the courtship period.

With BPD, however, the mood changes and temper tantrums are not driven by changes in body chemistry. Instead, they occur when you trigger the BPDer's fears. Significantly, during the courtship period, a BPDer's infatuation over you holds her two fears at bay. They typically do not return until that infatuation starts to evaporate (which usually occurs about 4 to 6 months into the R/S but may occur much later if you're not seeing each other very frequently). It therefore is typical for a BPDer's abusive behavior and moodiness to completely disappear during courtship.



> For the first month of our marriage everything was fine.


As noted above, a BPDer's fears usually are held at bay throughout the courtship period. Hence, if your W really is a BPDer, you likely had a period of many months where her abusive behaviors were totally absent. It therefore is common for sexual activity and affection to start going off a cliff right after the wedding, if not before. Because BPDers are unstable, a BPDer marriage typically exhibits a repeating cycle of push-you-away (by creating fights over nothing) and pull-you-back (by love bombing you).



> She had terrible trust issues.


A BPDer has such a great fear of abandonment that the intense fear distorts her perception of your intentions and motivations. A BPDer thus is unable to trust her spouse for any extended period. Indeed, she is so emotionally unstable that she cannot even trust herself. She may not know today what she will want to do in a week or two because she has no idea of what mood she will be in then. This inability to trust is why BPDers typically exhibit strong signs of irrational jealousy over harmless events that pose no real threat of abandonment.



> I tried to soothe her, comfort her, and make her feel loved. Looking back, it never worked.


If she is a BPDer (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum), you are in a room with only two exit doors: one marked "Damned If You Do" and the other "Damned If You Don't." Your no-win predicament is due to the position of the BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at the opposite ends of the _very same_ spectrum. This means you are always in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum.

Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. Sadly, there is no midpoints position (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist. 



> She says she suffers from anxiety and depression.... and intrusive thoughts and thanatophobia.


Most BPDers suffer from both anxiety and depression. A recent study found that 81% of female full-blown BPDers have a co-occurring anxiety disorder (which includes disorders such as thanatophobia) and 80% have a mood disorder such as bipolar or Major Depressive Disorder. See Table 3 at *2008 Study in JCP*.



> She never knew what she wanted to do in life until I suggested photography. I saved up and bought her her first camera.


If she is a BPDer, her sudden interest in photography likely won't last long. Like a young child, a BPDer has a weak and unstable sense of self identity. She therefore will tend to jump from one intense interest to another when her temporary excitement turns into boredom. 

My BPDer exW, for example, repeatedly told me how she loved to play the piano because it had such a calming effect on her. So I surprised her, early in our relationship, by having a $4,000 piano delivered to our home. She was thrilled, of course. But the excitement only lasted a week or two. In the three years following this purchase, she played that piano a total of five hours. Yes, five hours. 

Similarly, she spent $5,000 on 3 different sewing machines and $6,000 on bolts of fabric. During our 15 year marriage, that $11,000 investment produced only one dress, one vest, a blouse, and a cat collar. The purpose of the piano and sewing machines, of course, was to give an "identity" to a woman lacking a stable self identify. For a short while, she became "the pianist" and "the seamstress" and thus knew who she was.



> She then became suicidal.


One of the 9 defining symptoms for BPD is _"Recurring suicidal behaviors or threats or self-harming behavior, such as cutting." _See 9 BPD Traits at NIMH.



> She's refused counseling the dozens of times I suggest it.


In advanced countries, most major cities offer excellent treatment programs that teach BPDers how to better regulate their own emotions. However, personality disorders like BPD are invisible to the vast majority of people suffering from them. It therefore is extremely difficult to persuade a BPDer to seek therapy. And, in the unlikely event that you do, the BPDer is likely to just play mind games with the therapist instead of working on her issues. The result is that it is rare for a BPDer to have both the self awareness and ego strength required to make a real difference in her behavior by attending therapy.



> I do plan on seeing a professional.


Smart decision! Regardless of whether your W seeks therapy, it is important that you see YOUR OWN psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you and your two children are dealing with. If you decide that BPD is a strong possibility, it is important to see a psychologist who has never treated or seen your W. 

In that way, you are assured that the psych is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. When BPD is involved, seeking advice from your W's therapist during the marriage would be as foolish as seeking advice from her attorney during the divorce. It is important you see someone who is ethically bound to provide you with candid advice.

I suggest that, while you're looking for a good psychologist, you learn which behaviors are red flags for BPD. Of course, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD. 

Yet, like learning warning signs for a stroke or heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid staying in a toxic marriage and avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her. It also may help you decide whether it is prudent to spend more money seeking a professional opinion.

I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_ to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Pseudo.


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

Uptown said:


> Pseudo, I agree with *Ghost Rider*that you are describing warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).


Uptown, thank you very much for this information. I took a look at the 9 BPD traits and the two forum threads that you linked. In addition to everything you wrote, my wife has shown signs and acted almost the exact same way.

You mentioned that someone with BPD will play mind games if by chance they allow themselves treatment. How would I even begin to approach my wife, no matter how sincere, and tell her that I suggest she sees a professional not only for anxiety but for a BPD diagnosis as well? It is a challenge because something in the back of my mind tells me she would play mind games during treatment.

It's a challenge also because the moment I bring that up to her, in relation to bettering our relationship, she'll fire back with becoming upset and stating that it's "her fault everything is messed up". Or something similar.

Yesterday she acted as if the last discussion didn't even happen. She felt sad throughout the day but if anything acted just a little more outgoing and "normal" or "happy". I'm afraid this is the BPD. Regardless, she listened to my suggestion about writing down our issues and so she came up with a template of about 12 bullets each with questions written for example, "What is something you wish I would stop doing?" "What is something you wish I would do?" "Something I want you to know." Etc. Etc.

Does having that disorder mean that the individual has no control over their actions? Does it mean that the personality masked over someone with BPD *is* who they are? Or do they have a definitive personality hidden under the disorder?

If you don't mind me asking could you possibly PM me more details on how you dealt with someone with the same characteristics as my wife?

I'm still afraid to come home because I feel she will use that argument against me somehow. For the past several days I've been experiencing loss of motivation for everything because of the amount of negativity that she likes to express about anything. And all the time that I have to walk around eggshells.

Part of me thinks this new writing down our issues plot will solve some problems; part of me thinks it's a way for her to dig even deeper into our situation resulting in another loop. 

Do you personally think anything will change at all if she seeks out treatment?


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

OP, you need to state it clearly to your wife that your marriage is in deep trouble. You need to make an appointment with her physician and have her go through a complete medical exam. Be present at all these appointments. Make this a no option and state to her clearly that your marriage is on the rocks. As I stated before, your physician will recommend a psychiatrist who works in tandem with a psychologist. The psychologist will evaluate her condition and if she requires medication, she will be attended to by the psychiatrist. She won't be able to manipulate these trained professionals as they attend to these cases on a daily basis.

At age 22, you are already worn out! Do not self-medicate mental conditions. You have children to care for. They will suffer in the long run. Your wife is playing mind games as she is evading the reality of her mental condition. Mental conditions escalate as time goes. You will need counseling yourself to cope with your situation. Get help as quickly as possible before it gets worse.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Sounds to me that your W needs dire outside help with her depression issues!

You, as her H, can only do so much!*


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You need to be open to the possibility that she won't change or get better if she is legitimately diagnosed as BPD. It's extremely rare for BPDers to even be open to receiving therapy.

As for yourself and your kids, it's now your job to keep them safe and you sane. She is suicidal and it doesn't matter if she's being honest or not with her threats - you can't afford to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Many mothers go off the deep end and take their kids with. You'd never forgive yourself if you didn't do everything in your power to intervene before she reaches the point of no return.

In my experience, you give a BPDer exactly what they threaten (what they least expect but most fear), but not before you protect all of your interests, physical and otherwise, because there's going to be rubble.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

pseudo-nymous said:


> I'm afraid this is the BPD.


Perhaps so, Pseudo. But remember that we are all "BPDers" to some degree. Moreover, even when people are exhibiting very strong BPD symptoms, most of them are experiencing temporary flareups caused by hormone changes or drug abuse -- not by the lifetime problem that constitutes the full-blown disorder. This is why I encouraged you to speak with her family members and close friends to find out if her abusive behavior and instability have been persistent (e.g., appearing every month or two) since her teenage years.

Moreover, for the purpose of deciding whether to remain married to her, it really does not matter whether she has the full-blown disorder, thus receiving a diagnosis of "having BPD." A woman whose behavior satisfies only 75% or 90% of the diagnostic criteria (thus "not having BPD") likely will be nearly as difficult to live with as a woman whose behavior satisfies 100% (thus "having BPD"). Hence, what is important to you is whether she exhibits strong symptoms and whether they have been persistent. As I noted above, you should be capable of spotting strong symptoms and finding out about her history. And, because two young children are involved, I also suggested that you see a psychologist, for a visit or two by yourself, to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you and the children are dealing with.

If your W really is a BPDer, it is unclear how high the risk is to the children of developing BPD themselves. Unfortunately, only a few studies (all with small sample sizes) have been done. Three older studies (1985 and 1988) found that _"between 10 and 20 percent of first-degree relatives of people with BPD also have BPD...."_ See BPD Survival Guide (at p. 42). 

A more recent 2011 study, however, estimates the risk at between 28% and 37%. It therefore concludes that _"An individual with a first-degree relative showing BPD exhibited a statistically significant 3- to 4-fold increase in risk of BPD compared with an individual without a first-degree relative with BPD." _See "Comment" section of BPD Family Study. Whereas the earlier studies had been based on self-reporting by the BPDer patient being treated, this 2011 study was based on interviews of both the BPDer patients and their affected family members. 

The NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) reports a similar risk figure. It states _"BPD is about five times more common among people who have a first-degree relative with the disorder."_ See NAMI on BPD. Given that the lifetime incidence is 6% for the general population, this NAMI statement estimates the risk to be 30% for each child.



> How would I even begin to approach my wife, no matter how sincere, and tell her that I suggest she sees a professional not only for anxiety but for a BPD diagnosis as well?


Pseudo, I suggest you NOT mention BPD to her even though you suspect she is exhibiting strong BPD symptoms. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project your accusation back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Because that projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, she would be absolutely convinced -- at a conscious level -- that the problem is coming from you.

Like other personality disorders, BPD almost always is invisible to the person suffering from it. Hence, if your W is a BPDer, you were blamed for all mistakes because she lacks the self awareness to realize she has a serious problem. This is why BPD and other PDs are said to be "egosyntonic," which means they are so consistent with the desires and needs of the person's ego that she is unaware that there is anything wrong or dysfunctional about them. She is convinced that her excessive demands are not only reasonable but also the only right way to do things. 

In contrast, a woman whose issues are limited to depression and anxiety disorders (i.e., not PDs) usually is aware that her behavior is unreasonable but she does it anyway to reduce the painful depression or anxiety. Whereas a high functioning BPDer typically feels no urgency to address her issues because her distorted thinking seems perfectly normal and comforting to her, a woman suffering only from depression or anxiety typically is well aware of this problem and finds it to be stressful and very unpleasant. 

This is why "clinical disorders" such as strong depression and anxiety are usually much easier to treat than personality disorders such as BPD. And this is why, if you urge a high functioning BPDer to seek therapy, it is very unlikely she will go. Your best chance to persuade her to see a therapist is during one of those rare days when she has a "moment of clarity." These moments typically occur only when a BPDer is have an emotional breakdown because she has been caught doing something awful and she is convinced her partner will abandon her. 

In my 15 years of marriage, for example, my exW had such self-aware moments on 5 or 6 occasions (e.g., when I discovered once again that she had done $5,000 worth of binge spending on a secret credit card). These moments of clarity typically last a day or two and have no lasting effect whatsoever.



> It is a challenge because something in the back of my mind tells me she would play mind games during treatment.


If she is a BPDer, that is the likely outcome. One reason, as noted above, is that she lacks self awareness and thus does not recognize that her own behavior is dysfunctional. A second reason is that, because BPDers are incapable of trusting anyone who is close to her, she likely will be unable to trust the therapist after meeting with him a few times.



> Does having that disorder mean that the individual has no control over their actions?


No, a BPDer has control. But, like a young child, a BPDer finds it very difficult to regulate her own emotions -- with the result that she frequently experiences intense feelings that distort her perceptions of your intentions. A BPDer has difficulty controlling her emotions because she never had the opportunity to learn the more mature emotional skills that the rest of us learned in childhood.

The BPDer needs to learn, for example, how to do self soothing, how to regulate all of her emotions, how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating strong mixed feelings, how to trust, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident "facts," and how to stay aware of the present instead of escaping through daydreams into the past and future. Absent those skills, she must continue to rely on the primitive ego defenses used by young children: projection, denial, temper tantrums, magical thinking, and black-white thinking.

This is not to say, however, that the BPDer gets a free pass to abuse you. As with young children, it is very important that you allow the BPDer to suffer (within reason) the logical consequences of her own bad decisions and bad behaviors. As long as you continue walking on eggshells -- i.e., protecting her from suffering those logical consequences -- you are destroying a BPDer's only incentives to confront her own issues and to learn how to control them. That is, you're harming her by spoiling her.



> All the time that I have to walk around eggshells.


Well, if you're really married to a BPDer, that is exactly how you should be feeling, Pseudo. And your eggshell walking is harmful to both of you. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused partners) is titled, _Stop Walking on Eggshells_.



> Does it mean that the personality masked over someone with BPD *is* who they are? Or do they have a definitive personality hidden under the disorder?


Like every other adult and every young child, a BPDer has only one personality. But, as with a four year old, the BPDer is so emotionally immature that she has never learned how to integrate the good and bad aspects of her personality. In her childhood, she never got to that point where -- after behaving very badly -- she realizes she is an essentially good person who occasionally makes mistakes and exhibits bad behavior. Instead, a BPDer thinks of herself as "all bad" when she realizes she has behaved badly. This is why her subconscious works 24/7 to prevent her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting her hurtful feelings and bad thoughts onto YOU.

Due to this immaturity, a BPDer is unable to handle strong conflicting feelings (e.g., love and hate). A BPDer therefore has great difficulty tolerating ambiguities, uncertainties, and the other gray areas of close interpersonal relationships. She therefore will categorize everyone close to her as "all good" (i.e., "white" or "with me") or "all bad" (i.e., "black" or "against me"). And she will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just ten seconds -- based solely on a minor comment or action. You will see this same all-or-nothing behavior in a four year old who adores Daddy while he's bringing out the toys but, in a few seconds, will flip to hating Daddy when he takes one toy away.

Significantly, a BPDer is just as hard on herself as she is on others. As noted above, she flips between seeing herself as "all bad" and "all good" in the same way she views other people. This B-W thinking also will be evident in the frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions such as "You NEVER..." and "You ALWAYS...." Because a BPDer's close friends eventually will be "split black," it is unusual for a BPDer to have really close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away).



> If you don't mind me asking could you possibly PM me more details on how you dealt with someone with the same characteristics as my wife?


Pseudo, if you want to ask me a question about an issue that is too personal for the public forum, please feel free to PM me. Yet, as long as you're comfortable discussing an issue here on the forum, I encourage you to do so. That way you will receive a variety of input and advice from members having a much wider range of experiences than I do. Moreover, by sharing your experiences here on the public forum, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers. Indeed, your thread has already attracted nearly 550 views in less than two days.



> Do you personally think anything will change at all if she seeks out treatment?


As I stated in my first post, major cities offer excellent therapy programs but it is rare for a BPDer to have both the self awareness and ego strength required to make a real difference in her behavior by attending therapy. I would be surprised if any more than 1% of high functioning BPDers choose to seek therapy and remain in it long enough to make a substantial change in behavior.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

@Uptown, we are very lucky to have you here.


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## pragmaticGoddess (Nov 29, 2017)

I went through a phase in my life where I was constantly worrying about my husband being unfaithful. Every small detail is opportunity for scrutiny and accusation of unfaithfulness. I was suicidal and spiralled into an emotional breakdown at just the thought of a remotely potential AP. I couldn’t concentrate at work. I wasn’t happy and I didn’t look forward to anything. I was argumentative and created the biggest fights we had ever had in our marriage. 

The difference between your wife and I is that I knew I was hurting my husband and my family. I wanted to change and took steps to do so. It took me 9 months. Ultimately it led me to insecurity stemming from childhood. I was diagnosed with depression, saw a counselor and practiced CBT techniquess. Unfortunately, your wife has to want to own that change. 

All the best to you. It sounds like you’re doing the best you can in your situation.


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

Uptown said:


> Significantly, a BPDer is just as hard on herself as she is on others. As noted above, she flips between seeing herself as "all bad" and "all good" in the same way she views other people. This B-W thinking also will be evident in the frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions such as "You NEVER..." and "You ALWAYS...." Because a BPDer's close friends eventually will be "split black," it is unusual for a BPDer to have really close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away).


That is a big one actually. She loves using those all-or-nothing expressions. And she seems to have a big issue with making friends. She talks about how she would never hang out with someone in person but loves to talk about things over the internet to other girls on FB long-distance. She refers to them as "friends" but whenever that is a discussion she mentions she has no friends.

She also likes to make me feel guilty about having friends though I don't know how or why. I have a handful of buddies back home and some I made in the military. A handful of genuine people I consider to be family. She likes to say "You have a lot of friends," randomly during the discussion and other things I can't quite remember (I suffer from chronic migraines which affects my memory). 

Anytime I mentioned a friend coming over she would get visibly upset, down, depressed, short with me, etc. As if having someone over would interfere with our lives terribly. Out of the three times that I ever had a friend over in the past, there was always a terrible argument at the end of every day. This includes my family members coming over. She can't help but mention how she feels "awkward" about everyone especially if she's alone with them. Those days also end with a random argument. Which usually refers to having people over. I no longer invite people over in order to prevent situations like that.

I know that isn't the right answer but I have addressed the issue before and she acts as if she didn't do anything wrong.



Uptown said:


> In contrast, a woman whose issues are limited to depression and anxiety disorders (i.e., not PDs) usually is aware that her behavior is unreasonable but she does it anyway to reduce the painful depression or anxiety. Whereas a high functioning BPDer typically feels no urgency to address her issues because her distorted thinking seems perfectly normal and comforting to her, a woman suffering only from depression or anxiety typically is well aware of this problem and finds it to be stressful and very unpleasant.


In regards to this paragraph, she has apologized on paper in the past before about some situations and actions. She did this in a "bulk-apology for everything" kind of way. She did this once more just yesterday on paper as well. How she is sorry if she caused pain, bad memories, sadness, etc. And that she is trying really really hard to change.

She's said this before. What I've noticed is that after every "bulk" apology her actions continue as if she isn't aware and damage is still done. Out of the past year and some months this has been done three times now. I'm not sure how to feel about an apology meaning I'm not sure if it is sincere, though it sounds like it. Simply because I feel like we are in a loop and something tells me things still won't change.




Uptown said:


> Pseudo, if you want to ask me a question about an issue that is too personal for the public forum, please feel free to PM me. Yet, as long as you're comfortable discussing an issue here on the forum, I encourage you to do so. That way you will receive a variety of input and advice from members having a much wider range of experiences than I do. Moreover, by sharing your experiences here on the public forum, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers. Indeed, your thread has already attracted nearly 550 views in less than two days.


I am all for sharing experience and getting input from others. Not only do I want some help and advice now, in the near future I wish to stay on these forums and help others as well. One thing I like to do is help others, I really do. I asked you because I didn't know whether you had an issue discussing personal information or not, so I wanted to respect that. I am more than willing to discuss this on the thread.

I hope I am able to find the book you suggested at a local library. I would not be able to order it for my wife would obviously want to see what I purchased out of curiosity.




pragmaticGoddess said:


> The difference between your wife and I is that I knew I was hurting my husband and my family. I wanted to change and took steps to do so. It took me 9 months. Ultimately it led me to insecurity stemming from childhood. I was diagnosed with depression, saw a counselor and practiced CBT techniquess. Unfortunately, your wife has to want to own that change.
> 
> All the best to you. It sounds like you’re doing the best you can in your situation.


This is where I am confused. It seems as if she knows that she is causing damage, especially after I told her it is. Even before, as I mentioned above, she has written these bulk apologies three times since we've been together. Regardless, she has still acted the same way and hasn't really showed any attempt to change besides only verbally stating it.

I admire your strength to accept that you needed to change and did so. It must have taken a lot for you but I am glad you are on a road to better yourself as well as your relationship. Thank you for your input and I wish the best to you as well.




Vinnydee said:


> You made a bad decision in having a baby early in the marriage to get it over with. Obviously your marriage is doomed so the only choice is to endure it or divorce. I will never understand how men and women marry people who they do not know well enough to commit to something that is a lifelong contract and expensive to break. People rarely change so what you see is what you get when you marry. Problem is that love blinds us to each other's faults and why long engagements are best and then a 2-3 year wait for kids is prudent. Romantic love fades after a few years and then you both view each other with warts and all. That is when you decide to stick together or not. If you rush things and make commitments and babies while still under the effects of romantic love, you will be seeing things differently once it wears off.


I cannot argue with that. I expected hard times, I expected some minor changes in character. I felt I was prepared and willing to handle that, and I still am. What I never expected was abuse and superfluous amounts of negativity.

I may have made a mistake or mistakes in pursuing the life I have now. What's important at present is that I make the right decision that will result in a lesser amount of repercussions for my family and myself. 

Your discerning input helps me a lot Vinny, thank you.


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## msrv23 (Jul 14, 2017)

You can be empathetic but also assertive when it comes to needing her to fix herself. Feeling supported is important for someone with issues, but she also must keep in mind that you won’t accept this kind of treatment.

You are so mature for your age and handling everything at home along with all the house chores and work? Not many men does it.

After giving birth and sleep deprivation for months I did get more irritable and easily triggered, to the point I can’t even recognize myself. I’ve yelled and hit furniture even. But I know that it’s not acceptable and try hard to not let things escalate. I even asked my husband for help that one of us must disengage and allowed to disengage if things escalate. I ask for his comprehension and at the same time I control myself to not be like this.
You might want to learn of ways to disengage if things escalate. Tell your wife thwt you can’t escalate and argue like this. Talk about how you need her help to function as a couple and share responsibilities. But she must be willing to change for the sake of the marriage and herself.

Also it’s bad for children to grow up in such environment. They might get negative emotional patterns from their mother.

I know someone with serious BPD and it really scared me. I can only imagine what it’s like to live with someone like that.


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

pseudo-nymous said:


> If you don't mind me asking could you possibly PM me more details on how you dealt with someone with the same characteristics as my wife?


I know you are not asking me directly, but I will tell you what I did. I bent over backwards trying to make her happy for 15 years. I distanced myself from my family and friends. I cast my eyes downward or away when we were in public so I wouldn't make her think I was checking out other women (which she would sometimes accuse me of anyway). I spent thousands to get her through college and start her own business and so on, even at the expense of my own career. I walked on eggshells for that 15 years to avoid triggering her fear of abandonment.

None of it mattered for ****. She decided I was the devil on earth because I accepted chocolate-chip cookies from her friend's sixteen-year-old daughter. And she went off and had an affair, had sex with another man. A revenge affair, if you will, even though I was faithful.


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

Yes, pseudo, my wife would get pissed off with me for hanging out with male friends as well, or even spending too much time petting my cat. Forget female friends, that was just out of the question. It all comes back to the fear of abandonment. My wife felt threatened by anything she thought I could possibly derive any happiness from, besides herself.


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

Ghost Rider said:


> Yes, pseudo, my wife would get pissed off with me for hanging out with male friends as well, or even spending too much time petting my cat. Forget female friends, that was just out of the question. It all comes back to the fear of abandonment. My wife felt threatened by anything she thought I could possibly derive any happiness from, besides herself.


It's shocking how everything you say and describe are things that I do and that she does exactly. Especially when you mention how your exW felt threatened by anything else you can derive happiness from. I've been finding a way to put that into words and you've now done it for me.

You and Uptown are incredible for having put up with that for so long. I feel I am at my wit's end and it's only been a year. I wish I had the mental resilience that you both possess.


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

pseudo-nymous said:


> It's shocking how everything you say and describe are things that I do and that she does exactly. Especially when you mention how your exW felt threatened by anything else you can derive happiness from. I've been finding a way to put that into words and you've now done it for me.
> 
> You and Uptown are incredible for having put up with that for so long. I feel I am at my wit's end and it's only been a year. I wish I had the mental resilience that you both possess.


I think it is very important for posters like Uptown to convey the wealth of information they have about this disorder because it helps the long-suffering abused partners to put a name to the insanity and feel some sort of relief that they are not alone and that this is real. Unlike some folks, I don't have much compassion or tolerance for these abusers and do believe they border on being evil. Regardless, I do feel like it is important to note that you will never be able to change this person and learning to cope with this person will require you sacrificing much of your life and your happiness. It will be 100 times harder than raising a child just to live with this person. Remember, you cannot fix them. You cannot love them enough, you can give them enough, you cannot self-flagellate enough, spend enough, deny yourself enough....anything enough to make them even slightly happy. Look up info on Borderline mothers and the abuse they inflict on their children. Is that how you want to live? Is that how you want your child to grow up? I mean, seriously...you're young and you have a life ahead of you. This person is a dead soul whose only purpose in life is to inflict pain and suffering on anyone who dares to care for her. You cannot save that from itself.


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

pseudo-nymous said:


> It's shocking how everything you say and describe are things that I do and that she does exactly. Especially when you mention how your exW felt threatened by anything else you can derive happiness from. I've been finding a way to put that into words and you've now done it for me.
> 
> You and Uptown are incredible for having put up with that for so long. I feel I am at my wit's end and it's only been a year. I wish I had the mental resilience that you both possess.


It's not about mental resilience; it's about healthy boundaries. You seem to have them, and I didn't. Most normal, emotionally healthy people cannot stay with a "BPDer" for more than a year or two. People like me who are so nice, who don't have those boundaries with regard to what they will tolerate from significant others, who believe they can pick up "wounded birds" and fix them (I knew in my heart that she was emotionally unstable before we were married), are the ones who stay in these relationships, ultimately in futility and to their own detriment.

By the way, the concept that I put into words for you, it took me a very long time to fully understand what was happening and put it into words.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

pseudo-nymous said:


> It's shocking how everything you say and describe are things that I do and that she does exactly. Especially when you mention how your exW felt threatened by anything else you can derive happiness from. I've been finding a way to put that into words and you've now done it for me.
> 
> You and Uptown are incredible for having put up with that for so long. I feel I am at my wit's end and it's only been a year. I wish I had the mental resilience that you both possess.


Why? Extricate yourself from this situation pronto.

From a relationship standpoint, the only thing harder than being alone is living with the disordered.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Ghost Rider said:


> It's not about mental resilience; it's about healthy boundaries. You seem to have them, and I didn't. Most normal, emotionally healthy people cannot stay with a "BPDer" for more than a year or two. People like me who are so nice, who don't have those boundaries with regard to what they will tolerate from significant others, who believe they can pick up "wounded birds" and fix them (I knew in my heart that she was emotionally unstable before we were married), are the ones who stay in these relationships, ultimately in futility and to their own detriment.
> 
> By the way, the concept that I put into words for you, it took me a very long time to fully understand what was happening and put it into words.


QFT.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

pseudo-nymous said:


> You and Uptown are incredible for having put up with that for so long.... I wish I had the mental resilience that you both possess.


Pseudo, as @*Ghost* explains so well, he and I were _"incredible"_ only due to our lack of strong personal boundaries. *Ghost* and I are excessive caregivers who are so highly empathetic that we oftentimes lose sight of our own boundaries. Moreover, our desire to be _needed_ (for what we can do) exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the men we already are). 

As *Ghost* observes, most men dating a BPDer will enjoy the 6 months of adulation and passionate sex and then, when after the abuse starts to appear, will spend another 6 to 12 months trying to restore their partners to the wonderful women they saw at the beginning. Then they bail. 

In contrast, *Ghost* and I both held on for 15 years -- until our BPDer partners abandoned us. With excessive care givers like us, what typically happens is that we will hold on forever, refusing to walk away from a loved one whom we perceive to be childlike in nature. Not realizing that we were dealing with a BPDer, we felt like it would be equivalent to abandoning our own child. 

This is why BPDers typically abandon guys like us after 12 to 15 years. As the years go by, the BPDers become increasingly resentful of our inability to rescue them from unhappiness (an impossible task). And, as they see their bodies aging, they become increasingly fearful of abandonment. The result is that BPDer relationships tend to last either 18 months (with partners having strong boundaries like you) or 12 to 15 years (with partners having weak boundaries like *Ghost* and me).

This is not to say, however, that *Ghost* and I are the same. On the day of the breakup, *Ghost's* behavior was far worse than mine. In my case, I refused to drive my exW to the beach early on a Saturday morning. She flew into a rage and chased me room to room. She called the police, having me arrested on the bogus charge of "brutalizing" her (never mind that we were only 20 feet from our granddaughter and my exW's sister, who were behind a closed bedroom door). 

Because it was early on Saturday, I was in jail for nearly three days before I could go before a judge to be released. Of course, *Ghost* is the one who should have been hauled off to jail for three days. His crime was accepting a plate of cookies from a friend's 16-year-old daughter! Thank goodness he's not running for Congress, LOL.



> Out of the three times that I ever had a friend over in the past, there was always a terrible argument at the end of every day. This includes my family members coming over.


Again, *Ghost* explains this very well, observing that this is how people behave when they have a terrible fear of abandonment. A BPDer mistakenly perceives your spending time with close friends or family members as your choosing THEM over HER. 

As noted earlier, a BPDer does all-or-nothing thinking (i.e., black-white thinking), where every decision is a zero-sum game. Hence, she tends to perceive of any affection or time spent on your friend or relative is a loss to her. This is why such harmless actions trigger her abandonment fear. 

Moreover, because this fear is painful when triggered, a BPDer will try to minimize this pain by controlling every aspect of your personal life and by isolating you away from friends and family. The last thing she wants is for you to have a support network who say, "That's the most ridiculous explanation I've ever heard."



> This is where I am confused. It seems as if she knows that she is causing damage, especially after I told her it is.


High functioning BPDers generally are aware that they don't know who they are and they usually realize that their projected false self identity is fake. In contrast, a full-blown narcissist typically is so completely out of touch with his true self that he is convinced that his false self image (of being special and gifted) is genuine.

Although HF BPDers have a vague awareness that something is missing and wrong with themselves, they are filled with so much self loathing that their subconscious works 24/7 to keep their conscious minds from seeing how their actions and decisions are dysfunctional and harmful. The subconscious accomplishes this by projecting all painful thoughts and feelings onto the partner.

On rare occasions, however, this protective "blindness" by the subconscious (i.e., the projection) breaks down entirely. When it happened to my exW, she would be trembling and shaking and she would tell me how much she hated herself. She would acknowledge that she had hurt me many times and beg forgiveness. 

At those rare times (about once every 3 years), she would threaten suicide. Specifically, she would leave our home and -- knowing I was following protectively behind -- walk to a nearby bridge that suicidal people sometimes jump off of. After two occasions of that, I stopped following her.

So, instead of going to the bridge, she started going to a nearby subway station where she would call me from the platform. She would call when a train was approaching so I knew she really was in the subway. She would state that she was going to jump in front of the next train. Then she would hang up. As before, I ran down to the station on two occasions. When I stopped running down there, she stopped doing that particular threat.

It is during these emotional breakdown periods that a HF BPDer will get the "moments of clarity" I mentioned earlier. While it lasts, it will seem like a curtain has been pulled back, allowing the BPDer to see how her behavior is destroying the relationship. After two or three days, however, the curtain is back in place and her subconscious is back to projecting every misfortune onto you. 

The result is that there will be no lasting change whatsoever unless the BPDer works hard for several years in a weekly therapy program that teaches her the missing emotional skills. Even then, there will be no improvement if she lacks the self awareness and ego strength needed to succeed. This, at least, is my understanding -- and has been my experience when taking my BPDer exW to six different psychologists for weekly sessions throughout 15 years.



> She said "You don't love me."


During the courtship period, she felt loved because her infatuation held her two fears at bay. As soon as the infatuation waned, however, she was unable to feel loved. If she is a BPDer, she is filled with so much self loathing that she cannot love herself -- and thus cannot believe that you can either. 

This is why a BPDer often will make outrageous demands -- or make offensive remarks -- to test your love and commitment. Of course, passing a test with flying colors accomplishes nothing. The only result is that she will simply raise the bar you must jump over on the very next test.

Yet, because she's immature and unstable, there likely will be periods of a day or two where she does feel loved. But, sadly, it is fleeting and cannot last. Moreover, as I noted earlier, your moving close to assure her of your love will temporarily solve one problem (soothing her abandonment fear) only by creating another (triggering her engulfment fear). This is why you're in a no-win predicament if you're married to a BPDer. As @Farside said,_ "The only thing harder than being alone is living with the disordered." _


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Why? Extricate yourself from this situation pronto.
> 
> From a relationship standpoint, the only thing harder than being alone is living with the disordered.


It's funny you say that. Since I can remember, it's always been a part of me to love time to myself in my own thoughts either meditating or reading a book. Part of who I am thrives off of small amounts of solitude to cope with the stresses of life. I haven't had that since I've been with my wife.

Recently I've been having thoughts that consist of wanting to live alone besides taking care of my daughters and still having friends and family around me. I can't tell if these thoughts stem from what I've been put through recently or because I've had no personal time to gather my thoughts in a while.


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

Ghost Rider said:


> It's not about mental resilience; it's about healthy boundaries. You seem to have them, and I didn't. Most normal, emotionally healthy people cannot stay with a "BPDer" for more than a year or two. People like me who are so nice, who don't have those boundaries with regard to what they will tolerate from significant others, who believe they can pick up "wounded birds" and fix them (I knew in my heart that she was emotionally unstable before we were married), are the ones who stay in these relationships, ultimately in futility and to their own detriment.





Uptown said:


> Pseudo, as @*Ghost* explains so well, he and I were _"incredible"_ only due to our lack of strong personal boundaries. *Ghost* and I are excessive caregivers who are so highly empathetic that we oftentimes lose sight of our own boundaries. Moreover, our desire to be _needed_ (for what we can do) exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the men we already are).


I knew she had trouble in the past with two relationships which meant she had anxiety. I felt the same way when I wanted to be with her. I wanted to show her that not all men are like those she used to know and that I could be there to support her out of her struggle with anxiety. I thought I could be that person to help "fix her" as well. If you ask me, I really don't know why I developed boundaries only recently. Because for this entire time they were definitely absent.

I will say I am glad now that I did so because I want to see where and how far I can go with this. Thank you both very much for the invaluable advice and information that you were able to provide.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I suffer from chronic migraines which affects my memory.


Pseudo, I forgot to mention that, if you haven't tried sumatriptan (e.g., "Imitrix"), ask your doctor about it. Most migraine sufferers get complete relief within a half hour but it will make you feel tired the rest of the day.


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