# Arguing with my wife is a civil war



## chuckinwis (Dec 19, 2012)

So, my wife and I have a toxic relationship at times. I don't know what to do about it anymore. We tried counseling 2 years ago and made little progress. I went to anger management on my own last year and it hasn't helped much.

Here is what I feel the problem is: She is a marital argument war criminal. She just says things that are way out of bounds or are not things you saw to anyone you love, no matter how mad you are.

If the kids act up and I discipline them, I've apparently always done the wrong thing and she has to tell me on the spot in front of our son. (If I send him to time out, I did it to early or for too long, or for something not serious enough. If I spank him, I did it too hard. If I yell at him, I did it too loud.) She seems to purposely undermine me in front of our 3 1/2 year old. (No wonder he talks back to us and doesn't listen.) This is how most arguments between us start lately.

Anyway, every time we have an argument she starts throwing in things that are years old and should have been long forgotten, or she'll make some crazy accusation about me and my motives, thoughts or feelings. She gets this tone that I can't describe, where she dictates what I must be thinking and feeling, dictates what the "reality" of the problem is (and its always something I did), and every now and then throws in an unwarranted jab at my libido, manhood, etc. Sometimes, she makes up things she thinks I am going to do (You're going to cheat on me, leave me, beat me, teach our kids to do x, y or z, etc) and sprinkles those things into arguments too. I never feel respected or valued, but she manages to jab at my ability to parent, my work performance, etc 

When we went to marriage counseling, it came out that some of the things she did and said made me feel betrayed. We also discussed how our arguments or marital tension would make my anger build and I'd occasionally explode. (I'd break or throw things on rare occasion). Our therapist said it was like something "clicks and you go off." Well the next argument we had, which actually was pretty tame as I recall, she decided to chastise me about how I apparently had "clicked." Anyway, marriage counseling didn't go much further after that.

Then last year, because I was getting increasingly more angry in our arguments, I went to anger management counseling. I learned some great techniques for conflict avoidance and to help manage my reactions. However, I think it has made more more distant from my wife because conflict avoidance is, in part and in my situation, not talking to her about anything potentially volatile. If she's upset, I try not to engage her at all, because I can't talk her down and I know my reaction is ultimately likely to be fiery because I can only take so much of her BS. However, anger management did have the effect of extending my tolerance for her BS. However, the flip-side of that is I am resenting that she can just do and say whatever she wants and I'm supposed to keep my cool.

Anyway, her latest thing is that she's decided I must be bi-polar and that I need to go back for more counseling. Interestingly enough, my wife has clear signs of anxiety/stress management problems, but she refuses to see a therapist of any sort, because she can't admit there is anything wrong with her. She also has a narcissistic mother, which certainly didn't help her psyche.

I am really not at the point I want a divorce, because a few days out of the month, I feel like we really still have something wonderful and I want our kids to have 2 married parents. I certainly don't want to miss a day of my kids' lives. 

Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can either prompt my wife to make changes or I can do something to take control of this situation?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What are you doing not, just sitting/standing there and letting her go on and on?


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Walk away every single time she disrespects you in any way.

Tell her you want to be able to have an appropriate discussion, not in front of the children. And just leave.

If you did this every time she would learn how to treat you.

If not you might need to move on. 

Also keep at the counselling, find a good one.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Walk away every single time she disrespects you in any way.
> 
> Tell her you want to be able to have an appropriate discussion, not in front of the children. And just leave.
> 
> ...


I think this is great advice. If you leave and she has no one to rage at then she won't get what she wants out of it; making you feel like sh!t. Just do be careful, she might turn violent when you try to walk out.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I learned a lot from being in counseling and later becoming a counselor (not active any longer), but there are some things that I didn't learn. It sounds like you didn't either...

Conflict avoidance is critical with someone like your spouse, Chuck. It's also important for your needs to be met, and as you're finding out, if you don't feel like you can get there, resentment starts to grow.

You have undoubtedly learned to think about who is contributing what to a problem, so I'm going to encourage you to use those skills in a new way. When a problem arises, do what you're doing now to avoid argument, but take this a step further. For a day or two, find ways to own and solve your problem without assigning blame to anyone else. 

If you and only you had to stop the problem, what would have to happen? "Walking away" is the answer sometimes, like "I don't like when arguments get abusive, and I walk away." But sometimes that's just not enough, and you still have the duty to yourself to uphold your boundaries, beliefs, and values. How can you do this without blame? 

If you do this fully, then you'll find a way to say, "I am unhappy with the way you talk to me. I know you believe that they're justified, and you might be right. All I know is that I feel extremely unhappy when they happen and I'm going to XYZ to make sure I don't experience this any longer."


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Walk away every single time she disrespects you in any way.
> 
> Tell her you want to be able to have an appropriate discussion, not in front of the children. And just leave.
> 
> ...


Let me add that if she wants you to go to counseling, tell her you will, but she must also. Otherwise you can go on your own but follow the above steps.

One other note... you may want to keep a travel bag handy in case either you or your wife starts to cross the line in an argument and you need to leave to avoid violence.


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## chuckinwis (Dec 19, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Walk away every single time she disrespects you in any way.
> 
> Tell her you want to be able to have an appropriate discussion, not in front of the children. And just leave.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that every time one of these things ensues, I could just leave. However, I get the feeling that's what she wants. I have tried leaving and going to my office several times, but that usually prompts p.o.'d calls about why I left, why I left her with the kids, that I left because I am having an affair, or that while I am gone she's going to pack up the kids. She also is usually just as mad when I get home as when I left.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I'll add something I should have included above... 

Many people use unfair tactics and KNOW they are being unfair, but they're reluctant to give those tactics up because they're quite effective. Sounds to me like your wife's one of them.

I would encourage you to save some money and when you have enough set aside to take action immediately, tell her you plan to leave and take your child because she's toxic to his well-being. I suspect you'll see a drastic, immediate change of attitude.

It won't last if you don't uphold firm boundaries about how you're treated, though, and you shouldn't let yourself lose sight of the fact that she's in it to win it. She's not interested in win-win solutions because her world-view is that anything less than demolishing the opponent is a loss, and she can't tolerate being the "loser."


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## chuckinwis (Dec 19, 2012)

east2west said:


> I think this is great advice. If you leave and she has no one to rage at then she won't get what she wants out of it; making you feel like sh!t. Just do be careful, she might turn violent when you try to walk out.


She actually does get physical, if I try to take the kids with me when I leave, even if I tell her I'm going to my parents for the evening or taking the kids shopping. She usually doesn't try to stop me from going.


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## chuckinwis (Dec 19, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I'll add something I should have included above...
> 
> It won't last if you don't uphold firm boundaries about how you're treated, though, and you shouldn't let yourself lose sight of the fact that she's in it to win it. She's not interested in win-win solutions because her world-view is that anything less than demolishing the opponent is a loss, and she can't tolerate being the "loser."


That's really intuitive. I never thought of it like that, but given her tactics....you're saying she just needs to win? Can I make her feel like she wins, maybe I should be giving her some affirmation that she is right or at least that her feelings aren't wrong. Maybe then she could talk to me civilly. 

Because while I have no problem leaving to avoid the conflict, it does feel like I'd be living at my office or my parents' instead of at home, if I left as frequently as I should/could.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

chuckinwis said:


> maybe I should be giving her some affirmation that she is right or at least that her feelings aren't wrong.


I had this problem with my wife. It wasn't who was right or wrong, it's that I "didn't value her opinions".

But in reality, we both didn't value each other's opinions. One thing I learned was that I don't need an opinion on everything.

On the things that did matter, I could argue my side from a calm and logical position and if the discussion went off the rails, I could end it.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

chuckinwis said:


> When we went to marriage counseling, it came out that some of the things she did and said made me feel betrayed. We also discussed how our arguments or marital tension would make my anger build and I'd occasionally explode. (I'd break or throw things on rare occasion). Our therapist said it was like something "clicks and you go off." Well the next argument we had, which actually was pretty tame as I recall, she decided to chastise me about how I apparently had "clicked." Anyway, marriage counseling didn't go much further after that.
> 
> Then last year, because I was getting increasingly more angry in our arguments, I went to anger management counseling. I learned some great techniques for conflict avoidance and to help manage my reactions. However, I think it has made more more distant from my wife because conflict avoidance is, in part and in my situation, not talking to her about anything potentially volatile. If she's upset, I try not to engage her at all, because I can't talk her down and I know my reaction is ultimately likely to be fiery because I can only take so much of her BS. However, anger management did have the effect of extending my tolerance for her BS. However, the flip-side of that is I am resenting that she can just do and say whatever she wants and I'm supposed to keep my cool.


chuckinwis,

You are on a good trend here so stay with it. First, you have to quit yelling, throwing, exploding or any of that, no matter what she does. If you feel that means distancing, that's what you need to do. You have to develop rock solid self control before you can be effective here. Do what you need to get it.

Next, you need to start to approach sensitive issues in a loving manner. Never engage someone who is already upset. Say what you need to, stay on subject, if she starts up, walk away. Above all, don't let yourself get sucked into it.

Don't resent her for her problems, I promise you she is suffering inside like you can't believe. The idea behind leaving your home is not to control her but to protect yourself. Your core self esteem can only take so much. If you are damaged, and you will know if you are, then maybe you need some time away to recover.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

chuckinwis said:


> Can I make her feel like she wins, maybe I should be giving her some affirmation that she is right or at least that her feelings aren't wrong. Maybe then she could talk to me civilly.


"You're right, you know this is completely my fault. I'm sorry, I should have known better. I made a mistake and I apologize. You are a hundred percent right and I don't know why I wasn't seeing that. I really is my fault and I won't do it again. It's not your fault at all, I'm the one who is wrong."

Try a few of these lines and see how they work. Your wife is not rational so it doesn't make sense to try and be rational with her. Although she needs to be right, even more so she needs to be blameless. Try taking all the blame for anything and everything and you might be surprised how quick she settles down.


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## WhatASituation (Sep 27, 2012)

Oh wow, do I know how you feel! Arguing with my W is like arguing with the best lawyer money could buy! I just get to the point I say F-it!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chuckinwis said:


> I don't disagree that every time one of these things ensues, I could just leave. However, I get the feeling that's what she wants. I have tried leaving and going to my office several times, but that usually prompts p.o.'d calls about why I left, why I left her with the kids, that I left because I am having an affair, or that while I am gone she's going to pack up the kids. She also is usually just as mad when I get home as when I left.


My son's father was like your wife. It was terrible to live with.

The book "Dance of Anger" helped me a lot. It did talk about leaving when there is an outburst. But there was more to it. Here's the basic steps...

Come up with a signal.. I use the hand gesture for "STOP". When he's start on a tirade I'd put up use the STOP hand gesture and say "STOP" in a firm, not yelling, voice. At most I'd repeat it 3 times. Then say "I'm leaving to give us both time to calm down. Then I'd take my son to a quiet room or go on a walk... anything to get away from him.

Before I started this I spoke to him and told him what I would do. That I would no longer engage in the angry outbursts. That each of us is responsible for calming ourselves down. I'd be happy to talk to him when he was ready to discuss thing calmly, without name calling, etc.

I even practiced this in front of a mirror, imaging the point in a discussion when thing would start to get volatile. Then I'd go through the "STOP" routine. I did it until it was an automatic response.

I used this for about 6 months before he got the point. The angry outbursts stopped. He would just get on his bike and go for ride to work off his angst. 

We teach people how to treat us. You need to retrain her in this area… or you need to leave the marriage.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

chuckinwis said:


> That's really intuitive. I never thought of it like that, but given her tactics....you're saying she just needs to win? Can I make her feel like she wins, maybe I should be giving her some affirmation that she is right or at least that her feelings aren't wrong. Maybe then she could talk to me civilly.
> 
> Because while I have no problem leaving to avoid the conflict, it does feel like I'd be living at my office or my parents' instead of at home, if I left as frequently as I should/could.


Yes, I think she's a person who was probably raised to feel bad about making any mistakes. "Got a B in school? Why didn't you do better? You must have been being lazy!" "I can't believe you said that. You always try to hurt people!" 

Affirming her views may be helpful, but it probably won't solve the problem entirely. It can improve communication, but she'll still have the need to win. If you know of a way to help her feel that without giving up your needs, go for it, but I would guess she sees this as an opportunity to insist on her way. Then again, without this, you won't make progress either.


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## DrDavidCOlsen (Oct 7, 2012)

When arguments get out of control it is us usually because both parties escalate rapidly. Good couple's therapy helps couples create ground rules for conflict so that conflict stays contained and does not escalate. Even if one partner is not interested in sticking with the ground rules, if one partner makes a change, things can be different.
In THE COUPLEs SURVIVAL WORKBOOK we suggest that one partner practice constructive confusion. That is they do not take the bait, and try to stay non reactive even while the other escalates.
This takes great self discipline, but in the end can create positive change.
David Olsen, PHD, LMFT


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