# How do I address sex issues during health issues



## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

I'm really not sure how to move forward. My wife and I have been married for over 25 years. Our sex life started out strong, but slowly dwindled over the years. It's a classic HD/LD situation. I would be thrilled to have sex 4-5 times a week. She would be happy with monthly. She doesn't have the desire she used to, and other life issues often supersede sex. At this point, which is been the case for at least the last 7 years, we've been having sex four or five times a month, mostly quickies. And it often seems like the tenor of the time is "I'm not into it so make it quick, I've got things to do." I've addressed the issue several times in the past few years with no improvement. About six months ago, my wife began suffering from migraines. Since that time, we've maintained sex about once a week to 10 days, but almost all quickies. Now I can't figure out how to move forward. It has become even more complicated to address my desire for more frequent sex now that her health issues are also a factor. After six months, though, I believe we need to figure out how to make it work with our new reality, but I don't want to come across as insensitive. Also, I'm not sure if another talk is even going to help. It certainly hasn't in the past. Any ideas here? Do I shut up and be supportive? Do I plunge in again with the talk? Is it time to push for marriage counseling?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Ironically Your title got me thinking about how to address Health issues during sex issues.
My wife's drive is similar to yours but has taken a bit of an uptick as we do more things together. 
I'm pretty sure I tried all the talking, threatening, and pleading that is possible. When I just started shutting down and not asking for it any more. It (sex) suddenly became a priority on her list. 

The trouble is Now I can quickly turn it off if something is bothering me. She has a minor health issue that has hung on to the point of a Chronic condition. It's not serious and will probably self correct in a few more months. The problem to me is it makes her smell funny, and it is a turn off. So, Viola, I'm not interested. I'm starting to avoid bedtimes. But at the same time I'm wondering what happened to the recovery. The answer of course is that my new skill at rejecting her is working strongly against the sexual recovery.

In the end I think I'm saying that I agree, Talking is not going to help.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

My wife has pretty much tried the same thing, finding any possible way she can minimize the amount of sex. It's not going to get any better and she will probably get to to agree to less and less sex until it's at zero. I think you should start planning an exit strategy and get out of the marriage when it's most financially feasible for you.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

1lonelyguy said:


> Our sex life started out strong, but slowly dwindled over the years. It's a classic HD/LD situation.


If she gives you the sense that something is more important than you, it might not be HD/LD. Low libido is very different than being you being below her topmost priority.

Has she gone to her primary care physician over the migraines? This might be very treatable. Push for her to get treatment and assuming she can get the migraines under control, I would then try to resolve this problem. If you're getting sex several times a month despite the migraines, it shouldn't be that hard to wait this out. 

As for marriage counseling, it would probably be beneficial for both of you. Seeking counseling may signal to your spouse that the sex problem is more serious than she presumed. Good luck!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How often do you take your wife out on a date?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Unless she has a headache when you want sex, that should not be an excuse. 

She gives new meaning to "not now, i have a headache "

For reference my W gets migraines and she is under a doctor's care for them. She also has massive health issues beyond that. 

Imo your wife is using that as an excuse.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Health issues may be real or may be excuses. Do her health issues prevent her from doing other things that she enjoys?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

It can be hard to feel good when you don't feel good!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Unless she has a headache when you want sex, that should not be an excuse.
> 
> She gives new meaning to "not now, i have a headache "


 @1lonelyguy instead of asking if she is in the mood, ask instead if she has a headache! When she says no, then say, "good because when I seduce you with my irresistible charm in a few moments, I wanted to be sure you did not have a headache, otherwise I was going to give you the night off!"


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

turnera said:


> How often do you take your wife out on a date?


Great question. We go out to lunch often, but go on more formal dates very infrequently, and that's not by my choosing. Her Health, her work, our children, or her fatigue always seem to get in the way.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Health issues may be real or may be excuses. Do her health issues prevent her from doing other things that she enjoys?


Or both. Sometimes they are real, but sometimes they feel like an excuse. She misses work on occasion, but she manages to keep just about everything else in her life.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

She is under a neurosurgeon's care, so it is serious.


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## camerashy (May 29, 2016)

OP, I would ask what you have done to address the issue until this point? As @turnera asked, have you taken her on a date recently? Do you show through your actions that you love and desire her? 

Your W may be suffering from LD, but maybe that LD has come from an increased expectation for sex on your part without putting the effort into keeping the relationship or the romance alive...just a thought.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

_anonymous_ said:


> If she gives you the sense that something is more important than you, it might not be HD/LD. Low libido is very different than being you being below her topmost priority.
> 
> Has she gone to her primary care physician over the migraines? This might be very treatable. Push for her to get treatment and assuming she can get the migraines under control, I would then try to resolve this problem. If you're getting sex several times a month despite the migraines, it shouldn't be that hard to wait this out.
> 
> As for marriage counseling, it would probably be beneficial for both of you. Seeking counseling may signal to your spouse that the sex problem is more serious than she presumed. Good luck!


I certainly don't feel like her highest priority most of the time. Unfortunately, her specialist isn't making any progress with her migraines.


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## camerashy (May 29, 2016)

1lonelyguy said:


> Great question. We go out to lunch often, but go on more formal dates very infrequently, and that's not by my choosing. Her Health, her work, our children, or her fatigue always seem to get in the way.


Do you help her around the house and with the children?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

1lonelyguy said:


> .....It's a classic HD/LD situation. I would be thrilled to have sex 4-5 times a week. She would be happy with monthly.
> 
> .......the last 7 years, we've been having sex four or five times a month, mostly quickies. And it often seems like the tenor of the time is *"I'm not into it so make it quick, I've got things to do." * *I've addressed the issue several times in the past few years with no improvement.*
> 
> ...


As someone married to the same woman for 45 years and who a few years back was in a Sex Starved Marriage. I have a real hard time giving to you too much sympathy.

For a lot of guys in Sex Starved Marriages, once a week to once every 7 to 10 days would seem Heavenly.

So you might want to contemplate your situation and if it is so terrible.

I think that yes, you and your wife should go to a Sex Therapist and not to a Marriage Counselor. 

When I was in a Sex Starved Marriage and went to a Sex Therapist, I was asked how frequently I needed sex to remain within the marriage and that I needed to have reasons, not just desires for my answer. I thought about it and concluded that vigorous and enthusiastic sex 3 times a week would make me extremely happy. I was asked to explain why it wasn't 3 times a day. I did. The ST then asked my wife if she had ever had sex with me 3 times a week. My wife said yes. The ST then said that my wife has historically satisfied me, has the physical capability to do so and it is now just a question of it she wants to remain married or take responsibility for ending the marriage. It was a harsh moment for my wife, who had been withdrawing (emotionally checking out) of our marriage. Ultimately, my wife and the ST renegotiated sex to twice a week.

You are in a slightly different situation, but I see two main differences. You claim your need for sex is much greater. Have you ever had a woman sexually satisfy you 4 to 5 times a week for a decade or more? If so then I apologize to you and go directly to sex therapy with your wife.

One the other hand, maybe you need to take some responsibility for your own sexual happiness and be a little less codependent upon your wife providing all your sexual pleasure. Yes, learn how to find happiness either through some non-PIV sex with your wife or through some masturbation time with yourself. I would wager that is what the sex therapist will tell you.

Secondly, as to your obsession with "quickies" and she needs to get better so she no longer has excuses. I want you to read the following and reread it and think about it from your wife's perspective.



> I'm not into it so make it quick, I've got things to do." I've addressed the issue several times in the past few years with no improvement.


Can you see where your wife might understand that you are unsatisfied with the sex she offers you at a frequency (once a week to every 10 days that is far more than her once a month) closer to your needs than hers? Maybe in her mind she knows that whatever she does will not be good enough. If so, she may ask herself why bother trying to please you. 

Again, put yourself in her shoes. You have made it very clear to her that sex with her is not good enough either in terms of quantity or quality. How do you think that makes her feel about having sex with you?

One of the hard lessons I learned in saving my Sex Starved Marriage, was that I can not change my wife. Only she can change herself. I can change the way I treat her. I can reinforce positive behaviors. I can change myself in ways she appreciates to show her that change is possible......but I can't change her.

I never asked the ST to change my wife. The ST tried to help us find common ground, explain what were the logical consequences of a Sex Starved Marriage (Divorce) and asked what each of us wanted. The ST then provided us with home work and exercises that helped us rebuild our relationship in a way we both could support and enjoy. It was a stretch for each of us and it is still a stretch, but I am truly happier as is my wife and we are still married.

Yes, I do think you and your wife need to go to a sex therapist to sort out your relationship and each other's sexual needs.

Having been there, I will wager that you are not going to enjoy your sex therapy sessions as you are part of the problem. My advice to you is to do some serious introspection before you start sex therapy and make some changes in the way your view and treat your wife, otherwise you are going to be emotionally ripped apart.

Good luck.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

camerashy said:


> OP, I would ask what you have done to address the issue until this point? As @turnera asked, have you taken her on a date recently? Do you show through your actions that you love and desire her?
> 
> Your W may be suffering from LD, but maybe that LD has come from an increased expectation for sex on your part without putting the effort into keeping the relationship or the romance alive...just a thought.


Good thought, but we both would agree that I'm the more affectionate, romantic and relationally minded member in our marriage. She can get very focused on her work, and often brings it home with her. I try to go on dates weekly, but she's either busy or not feeling well. We go out to lunch once or twice a week.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

1lonelyguy said:


> Great question. We go out to lunch often, but go on more formal dates very infrequently, and that's not by my choosing. Her Health, her work, our children, or her fatigue always seem to get in the way.


Women want to be pursued. They are sexually interested in men who pursue them. If your wife says 'oh, I can't find a babysitter,' you say 'that's ok, I already booked one. Get dressed!' and then hold the car door open for her. Date her. Flirt with her (without asking for sex). Tease her. Give her a surprise hug now and then. Pick her up from work with a picnic basket and take her to a dock on a lake somewhere and eat and watch the sunset, and then take her back to her car. Have exotic flowers delivered to her office. Book a hotel room in town.

Give her things to brag to her girlfriends about. THAT man, she'll want to have sex with.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> How often do you take your wife out on a date?


Whenever there is a Night that I want to guarantee that there will be no Sex that night. (you might have the solution to my problem there)



camerashy said:


> Do you help her around the house and with the children?


Help Yes! especially the icky chores like toilet cleaning and Garbage removal. Take over, Never! fast track to the **** lane.



Young at Heart said:


> You have made it very clear to her that sex with her is not good enough either in terms of quantity or quality. How do you think that makes her feel about having sex with you?


A better question would be how does that realization affect your feelings about the value of the marriage. You are getting neither good nor plenty sex. That leaves how is the boat?


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## camerashy (May 29, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Whenever there is a Night that I want to guarantee that there will be no Sex that night. (you might have the solution to my problem there)
> 
> 
> Help Yes! especially the icky chores like toilet cleaning and Garbage removal. Take over, Never! fast track to the **** lane.
> ...


I think you have a very warped view of what a marriage is.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

1lonelyguy said:


> Good thought, but we both would agree that I'm the more affectionate, romantic and relationally minded member in our marriage. She can get very focused on her work, and often brings it home with her. I try to go on dates weekly, but she's either busy or not feeling well. We go out to lunch once or twice a week.


The problem with this attitude is that you are being weak. Women ONLY respect (and desire) strong men. You have ALLOWED yourself to be put at the bottom of her priority list. 

Read the book No More Mr Nice Guy. I suspect you'll find yourself in those pages. The end result for every Nice Guy is either no sex or being cheated on (when a stronger man appears in her life and is more appealing).


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> As someone married to the same woman for 45 years and who a few years back was in a Sex Starved Marriage. I have a real hard time giving to you too much sympathy.
> 
> For a lot of guys in Sex Starved Marriages, once a week to once every 7 to 10 days would seem Heavenly.
> 
> ...


Thank you. This is very helpful. I'm guessing you are right about the sex therapist. That might be better based upon your comments. I have no illusions that "she is the problem"' and I'm open to work on my part in it. 

For clarification, I said I'd be thrilled with sex 4-5 times a week. That's not my expectation, just a point of reference. I find that I'm reasonably sexually satisfied if we're having some sort of sexual intimacy 2 times a week, and I've talked about non-PIV possibilities as part of that. However, I find that quickies and non-PIV experiences cannot completely replace more intimate PIV experiences. I've broached this issue in prior conversations we've had. Also, we did have sex a couple of times a week for about a month after our last talk. I was satisfied and she seemed more connected too. It just didn't last.

I'm wondering, does scheduling help, even when health issues could get in the way?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I am hesitant to post here for a few reasons. I don't have any real solid advice to offer you, is the biggest one. I live the same dynamic as your marriage - but I am the wife who is ill and posting here. I have written and subsequently deleted before posting my own thread on this topic many different times. So bravo to you for looking for help. 

The first thing I was going to suggest is to make sure your wife is proactively managing her own medical care. Seeking doctors and treatments. It sounds like she is from your most recent posts. 

It is hard to explain to someone who is well, what it feels like to be unwell a majority of the time. Chronic pain is exhausting. Not an exhausting like I've ever felt at any other time in my life. I also suffer from depression and anxiety which get worse when the chronic pain / migraines flare. 

I have a limited amount of energy in a day. That energy is spent trying to hold down my job, then trying to help in the evenings with kids and dinner and keeping the house running. At least once a week I bottom out completely and cannot get myself off the couch due to the pain. I've been missing a lot of work recently. 

It is hard to want sex or participate in sex when your body hurts. My migraines cause a fire like burning pain through all of my joints as well as nausea and dizziness. I often end up taking a combination of (doctor approved) meds to literally knock myself out so I can sleep and hope that when I wake up the pain will be gone. Trying to manage physical exertion or sex when I feel that way is really difficult. I can physically have sex but you are going to know it's not pleasing to me. My H does not want sex unless I am enjoying it as much as he does. 

Sadly, I don't have a good answer. 

We have less sex than you do. 

I keep plugging away at my various doctors appointments praying for an answer. I'm losing faith in doctors at this point. 

If you are sick for so long, you begin to try to normalize it. I often question whether I am actually feeling pain or a migraine or whether I am imagining it and losing my mind. That sounds crazy when I type it out. I guess I was wondering if it was psychosomatic. You mentioned feeling as a bystander that your wife can still function, and wondering whether the sickness was an excuse. 

I cannot control my symptoms and when they show up. I can be doing something enjoyable with zero stress...a fun filled vacation...and my pain will hit me out of nowhere. It is beyond frustrating. I've had just as many work days ruined as weekends and days that I was really looking forward to. It makes you afraid to leave the house because you can never predict where you will be when you begin feeling sick. 

Someone else advised you to leave. Honestly, dealing with someone who is sick is not something I'd wish on anyone and I often tell my H he should leave. He thinks I'm crazy for saying that but I figured if I can't get it under control at some point that he will eventually figure out he should leave. 

For me - the lack of sex is just the tip of the iceberg of things I wish I could do more frequently and enjoy.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

turnera said:


> The problem with this attitude is that you are being weak. Women ONLY respect (and desire) strong men. You have ALLOWED yourself to be put at the bottom of her priority list.
> 
> Read the book No More Mr Nice Guy. I suspect you'll find yourself in those pages. The end result for every Nice Guy is either no sex or being cheated on (when a stronger man appears in her life and is more appealing).


I suspect there is some truth in this statement. I definitely feel as though I'm steadily going down the priority list.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I am hesitant to post here for a few reasons. I don't have any real solid advice to offer you, is the biggest one. I live the same dynamic as your marriage - but I am the wife who is ill and posting here. I have written and subsequently deleted before posting my own thread on this topic many different times. So bravo to you for looking for help.
> 
> The first thing I was going to suggest is to make sure your wife is proactively managing her own medical care. Seeking doctors and treatments. It sounds like she is from your most recent posts.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for sharing! That is exactly how my wife seems to be feeling! She even has nightmares about having Migraines. And you are right! She is often dragging herself out of bed to go to work because she has to. If your husband is anything like me, he loves you deeply, and is heart-broken about your situation. Has the sex issue come up in your relationship?


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

camerashy said:


> Do you help her around the house and with the children?


I do all the cooking, most of the stuff with the kids, and almost all the housework.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> The problem with this attitude is that you are being weak. Women ONLY respect (and desire) strong men. You have ALLOWED yourself to be put at the bottom of her priority list.
> 
> Read the book No More Mr Nice Guy. I suspect you'll find yourself in those pages. The end result for every Nice Guy is either no sex or being cheated on (when a stronger man appears in her life and is more appealing).





1lonelyguy said:


> I suspect there is some truth in this statement. I definitely feel as though I'm steadily going down the priority list.


This is where Lowering my desire and neediness for her actually helped. It made me look less dependent on her, and Thus stronger and more attractive.



1lonelyguy said:


> I do all the cooking, most of the stuff with the kids, and almost all the housework.


And there is the proof. When you do everything she says you become the weak "Nice Guy" Turnera mentioned. The end of this particular path is almost always infidelity.
She brings her work home and is too busy for you or the kids. This places her importance as breadwinner over yours as support staff. I'm guessing that your financial contribution to the family is similar to hers. So she is manipulating you into the Support role when in fact you are a co-breadwinner.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

camerashy said:


> I think you have a very warped view of what a marriage is.


This remark earned a separate but relevant answer.

The view that I have is an accurate view of the marriage I am participating in. You find the description Warped, because it is not an ideal, or even very good marriage. Trust me that I am not exaggerating here. 
The relevant part of this is that @1lonelyguy , will soon see the same "warped" vision of marriage in his life. The specifics may differ but the dissatisfaction and just plain wrongness will be the same.


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## camerashy (May 29, 2016)

1lonelyguy said:


> I do all the cooking, most of the stuff with the kids, and almost all the housework.


I don't think that this makes you "weak" at all @1lonelyguy 

I think this makes you a caring and supportive H to a W who has on-going medical issues and needs support right now.

I have read nothing into your story that leads me to believe that your W is or is planning to have an affair. At this point, I think the mere suggestion of it is ludicrous. 

In my opinion, I think you and your W need to communicate. And probably while sitting in the office of a MC or ST. Your W could possibly also benefit from IC to talk about any residual (psychological or emotional) effects from suffering from her illness. From the sounds of it, you have both received very little answers as to what's ailing her and that could be playing heavily on her mind also.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I often question whether I am actually feeling pain or a migraine or whether I am imagining it and losing my mind. That sounds crazy when I type it out. I guess I was wondering if it was psychosomatic. You mentioned feeling as a bystander that your wife can still function, and wondering whether the sickness was an excuse.


 @kag123, on the off chance that there is something to what you're feeling, check out this:

https://www.amazon.com/Mindbody-Pre...?ie=UTF8&qid=1485300524&sr=8-2&keywords=Sarno

It's working for me


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

camerashy said:


> Do you help her around the house and with the children?


There should really be an auto-answer for this question, because the answer (on this site) always is:



1lonelyguy said:


> I do all the cooking, most of the stuff with the kids, and almost all the housework.


Not that all guys who don't get enough sex from their wives always do more than their fair share of the housework; just all the guys posting here. The ones that are trying to solve the problem instead of cheating, divorcing or threatening their wives.

Husbands should be doing their fair share of the housework because it's the right thing to do, not to get more sex (it won't work anyway).


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

1lonelyguy said:


> .... I find that I'm reasonably sexually satisfied if we're having some sort of sexual intimacy 2 times a week, and I've talked about non-PIV possibilities as part of that. However, *I find that quickies and non-PIV experiences cannot completely replace more intimate PIV* experiences.......
> 
> [I've broached this issue in prior conversations we've had. Also, *we did have sex a couple of times a week for about a month after our last talk. I was satisfied and she seemed more connected too*. It just didn't last.
> 
> I'm wondering, does scheduling help, even when health issues could get in the way?


A few more thoughts. 

(1) If you find quickies and no-PIV cannot completely replace more intimate PIV, you should stop a moment and think. She probably understands that you don't feel non-PIV is intimate enough. I advise you to think about changing yourself in this way. 

There are lots of ways that PIV could be medically taken off the table. Let's say you got prostate cancer and required for surgery and the surgeon damaged nerves that left you completely impotent. It happens. Would you sex life be completely over? Would you hope that you and your wife could work some form of intimacy and emotional/sexual bonding into your life? 

You know the Viagra commercial, where the sex kitten purrs into the Camera and says to ask your doctor if you heart is healthy enough for sex? Well some guys hearts are not healthy enough for vigorous sexual activity. Wouldn't it be nice to have some other form of sexual intimacy with you wife at such a point?

I would urge you to work with your wife on finding "options" that satisfy both of you, especially her.

You and your wife are getting older. If you are lucky, the two of you will live long lives together. As we age our bodies tend to deteriorate. At some point in your married life, you and your wife will need to start making accommodations for the ravages of time. Are you mentally ready for that? Why not practice a few options now while they are just playful "options." There may come a time when the options become the only alternatives. Learn on your part to savor them.

(2) You had sex for a month at a frequency you liked after a discussion with your wife. Wonderful that shows she is trying! 

What did you do to positively reinforce her changed behavior? Did your reinforcement taper off with time and then the frequency start to drop? Did you celebrate with her and praise her, even when things started to slow down? You might want to think back on that recent experience. She made a change after you talked to her. Often times (like on diets) we set a goal and make some changes, but don't have the reinforcement of those we love to keep us motivated (and so the diet ends without success). 

Think about and ask your wife how you can help her achieve whatever goals she sets for herself in all endeavors.

(3) One thing I discussed that you didn't discuss was "co-dependence" on your part. Someone else suggested reading Glover's book No More Mr. Nice Guy. I would echo that. It is not about being a jerk or a macho man. It is about being an integrated man who improves himself and does things to make himself happy and complete. Glover encourages men to "Get a Life," to stop being clingy, to end their co-dependence and their need to have a woman validate them emotionally. It is really good advice.

Good luck to you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

1lonelyguy said:


> I do all the cooking, most of the stuff with the kids, and almost all the housework.


What is she doing while you do all this?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

1lonelyguy said:


> I suspect there is some truth in this statement. I definitely feel as though I'm steadily going down the priority list.


What are you gonna do about it? (besides reading the book NMMNG)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

camerashy said:


> I don't think that this makes you "weak" at all @1lonelyguy
> 
> I think this makes you a caring and supportive H to a W who has on-going medical issues and needs support right now.
> 
> ...


I appreciate you input and viewpoint, but on this you are mistaken. There is a very strong psychological underpinning to this marriage dynamic. Have you read NMMNG? It's VERY accurate and is proved out in marriage after marriage after marriage. We've only been 'humans' for a short time on this planet. Before that, we ran entirely on instinct just like all the other animals around us. Think pea****s or rams. It hasn't been that long since we were in the caves and women chose men who were strong and would keep us alive. That DNA is still in us. We still choose men - and STAY with men - who are strong and would keep us alive.

Fight it all you want. But the reality is there. If a man accommodates his wife 'that' much to the point that she's being pampered or not having to 'do' something to keep her man, she will lose interest in him. He will fade into the wallpaper. Become her roommate. And any man who then shows up and compliments her, listens to her, seduces her...she's listening, whether she wants to or not.

Ignore the psychology at your own risk.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> ......Not that all guys who don't get enough sex from their wives always do more than their fair share of the housework; just all the guys posting here. The ones that are trying to solve the problem instead of cheating, divorcing or threatening their wives.
> 
> Husbands should be doing their fair share of the housework because it's the right thing to do, not to get more sex (it won't work anyway).


+1! As a former "Nice Guy" in a Sex Starved Marriage, I vacuumed, picked up, did laundry, did dishes, etc until the cows came home. As Glover points out, Nice Guys think that if doing something doesn't cause their wife to bestow upon them sex, that they just need to "double down" and do what doesn't work even more to get the sex they desperately want. Life just doesn't work that way. As MW Davis would say in say her book Divorce Busting, it is time for a 180.

In reading Chapman' 5 Languages of Loved, I finally understood that my wife (who has primary/secondary love languages of Acts of Service and Quality Time), did not view my washing, cleaning, cooking as Acts of Service, but merely as my share of the chores. I could have done all of the housework and it would never have risen to the level of "Act of Service" in making her feel loved.

One frustrating morning after reading Chapman, I got up early, went downstairs made myself some coffee and brought coffee upstairs to the bedroom for both my wife and myself. She liked that. THAT WAS SOMETHING SHE FELT WAS AN ACT OF SERVICE and it made her feel loved! While she was feeling good drinking coffee and waking up, we talked in bed. BINGO! She felt that was QUALITY TIME and it made her feel really loved. Our sex life improved a lot at that point. She provided me with lots of positive reinforcement, and I provided her with positive reinforcement. As I said, things improved a lot.

We now have a coffee pot in the bedroom of our house. In the morning I wake up and get out of bed first. I start the coffee each day. When it is done, I pour two cups of coffee and we wake up together drinking coffee and talking about what we are going to do that day. My wife starts each day feeling loved and special. It is now a ritual. 

As you said the people who talk about doing more chores around the house may not really understand what is truly going on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

This is good, but remember that acts of service differ from person to person. For some, acts of service might mean breakfast in bed. I couldn't care less if my H gave me breakfast in bed; in fact, it just wastes time. MY acts of service would be repairing the pressure washer so I can clean the sidewalk so people don't slip on my sidewalk; cleaning the mold off our siding so we don't get legal letters; putting his old car back together so we don't look like trailer trash; finishing the four separate projects awaiting his attention in the back yard; putting down the wood he bought in the bedroom 4 years ago; installing the new closet system he bought 3 years ago; installing the chandelier he bought 2 years ago.

Get the picture?

There is a reason 'acts of service' is often so high on women's lists of top emotional needs; and it's very often a result of the LOVE BUSTERS the husband is bestowing on his wife by NOT attending to what matters to her.


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## camerashy (May 29, 2016)

turnera said:


> I appreciate you input and viewpoint, but on this you are mistaken. There is a very strong psychological underpinning to this marriage dynamic. Have you read NMMNG? It's VERY accurate and is proved out in marriage after marriage after marriage. We've only been 'humans' for a short time on this planet. Before that, we ran entirely on instinct just like all the other animals around us. Think pea****s or rams. It hasn't been that long since we were in the caves and women chose men who were strong and would keep us alive. That DNA is still in us. We still choose men - and STAY with men - who are strong and would keep us alive.
> 
> Fight it all you want. But the reality is there. If a man accommodates his wife 'that' much to the point that she's being pampered or not having to 'do' something to keep her man, she will lose interest in him. He will fade into the wallpaper. Become her roommate. And any man who then shows up and compliments her, listens to her, seduces her...she's listening, whether she wants to or not.
> 
> Ignore the psychology at your own risk.


I think that when there are health concerns involved the last thing on a person's mind is "generally" cheating on their spouse....it's in finding the energy to get through the day...to get out of bed and out the door to work every day....to make sure the kids are fed etc....

And the LAST thing I think that any person who is going through some kind of medical issue or intervention should have to worry about is "keeping their spouse." That's ridiculous in my book.

I really don't like the idea of taking every situation and measuring it by the same standards. There are different factors involved. Different issues and concerns. One book does not define every situation. Not that I don't see certain truth or merit in what you are saying. I really do. But I just think that this couple need to sort the medical stuff first. And get her into some sort of IC to help her cope with the situation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

NOBODY - except predators - intends to cheat. 90% of affairs start off as friendships, innocent, just talking, getting to know each other. A person with medical issues has a certain set of 'problems' that their spouse, most often, is NOT tuning into, and thus they are left feeling unsupported. And when another person of the opposite sex suddenly takes an interest...IT FEELS GOOD. Psychologically. And you want more. Even if you have NO INTENTION of having any sort of relationship. It's human nature. It's basic psychology. Every human has basic needs - to be wanted, to be understood, to be cared about. And when a third party provides that, it's often nearly impossible to avoid or deny it.

Which is why I so very often question the betrayed spouse as to what he/she has NOT provided in the marriage. In most cases, their partner had no desire to cheat. But it happened anyway. So best to look at the marriage and detect the vulnerabilities BEFORE an affair happens.


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## camerashy (May 29, 2016)

If I'm sick and my H is more concerned with being a he-man than supporting me and doing everything he can to ease my load even a tiny bit...then I'm liable to kill him. Just saying.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

camerashy said:


> If I'm sick and my H is more concerned with being a he-man than supporting me and doing everything he can to ease my load even a tiny bit...then I'm liable to kill him. Just saying.


You obviously have never read NMMNG. It has NOTHING to do with being a he-man. It has everything to do with not being a doormat.

I get that you have medical problems and have no intention of cheating. But if you feel that your H isn't listening to you, or if you sense he's tired of having to take care of you, or if he dismisses you and your issues...and some stranger comes along and is 'all into you' and your problems, your core psychology is going to tune into this new man with laserlike focus. 

_Whether you want to or not._


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

camerashy said:


> And the LAST thing I think that any person who is going through some kind of medical issue or intervention should have to worry about is "keeping their spouse." That's ridiculous in my book.


Yeah, shouldn't have to worry about it but that doesn't mean it isn't happening on the regular. You know how many people get cheated on during sickness, pregnancy, etc? Many. It sucks. Life sucks sometimes.

If I get crushing depression, no one is going to coddle me. Still have to get up for work like per usual. As others have said, I don't think OP's marriage is "divorce bad". But if he is seeing a problem then one exist - even if it is only in his head (not that I am saying it is) - that needs to be addressed.

Have you considered getting a second opinion, OP? A different neurosurgeon?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This takes the discussion out of the usual Low Desire / High Desire territory. 

On the one occasion my wife had a serious long term medical issue, sex was the last thing on my mind. I just wanted her to get better.



1lonelyguy said:


> She is under a neurosurgeon's care, so it is serious.


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

If she's in too much pain to want sex it's unlikely she would cheat. When I have migraines I don't even want to get out of bed. And the truth of the matter is, when you have chronic pain or ongoing illness, sex drops pretty low on the priority list. Especially on days when you feel like you're going to die if the pain doesn't stop soon.

And I wouldn't have cared if my husband was alpha, beta, gamma, delta, or any other letter of the Greek alphabet if he would have helped out at home more. And my father is about as alpha as it gets - and the biggest issue in my parents 50 year marriage has been his absolute refusal to help out around the house - even after my mother had open heart surgery!

OP - my suggestion to you as a woman with chronic pain/illness. Your wife needs support, not to be pressured about sex. Help out around the house. Rub her back at night with no expectations. Understand that severe pain with no definite diagnosis is SCARY. No matter what doctors tell them, most migraine sufferers worry about things like brain tumors and aneurisms. The best thing you can do for her right now is just BE THERE for her. If she tells you she wants to be left alone in a dark room with no noise, turn off the lights and take the kids out for the day. If she needs to cry because the pain is so bad, offer your shoulder. But please don't put more on her plate than she is already dealing with.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IF her migraines are not psychosymatic, then take care of her. But get a second opinion. I've dealt with many women with migraines and more than half of them were psycosomatic.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Really? Migraines are a pretty specific set of symptoms and really nasty when they happen.

I don't think someone could confuse the auras with anything else. I occasionally get auras, but not the headaches (silent migraine) my wife sometimes gets full migraines. Even the auras are really really scary. 





turnera said:


> IF her migraines are not psychosymatic, then take care of her. But get a second opinion. I've dealt with many women with migraines and more than half of them were psycosomatic.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

1lonelyguy said:


> Thank you so much for sharing! That is exactly how my wife seems to be feeling! She even has nightmares about having Migraines. And you are right! She is often dragging herself out of bed to go to work because she has to. If your husband is anything like me, he loves you deeply, and is heart-broken about your situation. Has the sex issue come up in your relationship?


Yes, I would say my H is also heartbroken about my situation. He, like most men, wants to fix it but knows that he can't. And I think that makes him feel just as hopeless and frustrated as I am sometimes. 

He has only lost his cool about sex a hand full of times in our marriage. I know he wants more than I am currently giving. I also know he wants me to be fully engaged and mentally present each time and he realizes I don't have a lot of control over my illness right now so I can't always give him that. God bless him, he has always been an exceptionally patient person - much moreso than me - and that helps I think. 

I think he would be less patient if I were not actively trying to figure out a solution. I've been to at least one doctors appt per week since Thanksgiving trying to get some answers, so I'm not just shutting down and giving up (even though I truly want to). Some of the "solutions" I've been offered by some of the doctors are things I'm not interested in doing unless there is absolutely no other choice (taking narcotic pain pills for example) so I am always seeking multiple opinions. 

For us, the suddenness of onset of symptoms and the duration is the hardest. I can turn my head the wrong way and be incapacitated instantly by a blinding migraine and I have no idea why. There have been times when I've been feeling well, we start to get things going, and suddenly I am not OK and have to abruptly stop. We had a fantastic date the other night at a very nice restaurant and we were on our way home when I had a migraine suddenly hit me, had to pull over on the shoulder of the highway to let him drive and spent the rest of the night alternating between the bed and the bathroom. :/ Like every other time, I have no idea why it started. I was looking forward to continuing our evening at home...I am sure he was too...and once again it was ruined.


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Really? Migraines are a pretty specific set of symptoms and really nasty when they happen.
> 
> I don't think someone could confuse the auras with anything else. I occasionally get auras, but not the headaches (silent migraine) my wife sometimes gets full migraines. Even the auras are really really scary.


When I get migraines I literally lose my vision for several hours. It's absolutely terrifying. But at least I know the cause of mine - lack of oxygen to the brain due to my heart not pumping efficiently.

OP - has your wife seen a cardiologist? Some migraines can be caused by cardiac issues such as a chamber that is pumping weakly, a arterial blockage, or even a cardiac tumor, which is what my mom had.


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## camerashy (May 29, 2016)

turnera said:


> IF her migraines are not psychosymatic, then take care of her. But get a second opinion. I've dealt with many women with migraines and more than half of them were psycosomatic.


IF....

Are you for real @turnera ? You don't even know this woman. And migraines are f***ing awful.


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## hifromme67 (Oct 30, 2016)

Does she have migraines 24/7? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

turnera said:


> Women want to be pursued. They are sexually interested in men who pursue them. If your wife says 'oh, I can't find a babysitter,' you say 'that's ok, I already booked one. Get dressed!' and then hold the car door open for her. Date her. Flirt with her (without asking for sex). Tease her. Give her a surprise hug now and then. Pick her up from work with a picnic basket and take her to a dock on a lake somewhere and eat and watch the sunset, and then take her back to her car. Have exotic flowers delivered to her office. Book a hotel room in town.
> 
> Give her things to brag to her girlfriends about. THAT man, she'll want to have sex with.


This :yay::yay:

Sadly many men want the sex but not the effort of making the wife feel special. They want the end prize but not to experience the journey with her.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

OP -
She's not attracted to you. To cut short the analysis of nearly all LD/HD issues where only the HD partner is available for discussion , you unfortunately have only a few options:
- Leave
- Stay and be unhappy.
- Stay and be unhappy and cheat to have your sexual needs met.
- Negotiate an open relationship where you get your needs met outside the marriage.
- Try a program of self-improvement to make yourself more attractive to your spouse. This may or may not work.

There's lots of advice on TAM and elsewhere on how to do this and what this entails. It's on fundamentally about being an interesting attractive confident person. It's not about being her doormat or butler and making her life easier. 

Fundamentally you can only change yourself and your interactions with her, you can't force her to change. 

But you can insist to both yourself and to her that you have reasonable expectations about a frequent enthusiastic sex life in the context of her medical issues, and that as her husband you have a reasonable expectation of access to her time, effort, and energy both inside and outside the bedroom.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

And also, here's a big red flag question: Do you often end up thinking: "hey she's been healthy and energetic enough to go spend the day doing stuff that's important to her, but as soon as I initiate sex she's miserable and ill and exhausted? She's making things up to get out of sex."

If that's a pattern, call her out on it, tell her it's a very dangerous thing to do in a marriage, and bluntly tell her that doing that is a sign she is unwilling to be in an adult relationship.


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## hifromme67 (Oct 30, 2016)

Unfortunately this was me a few years ago. I hated having sex with my husband. I would do it but I would say the same things. I would tell him to just hurry up, I didn't care if I had an O or not. I didn't want him kissing me, etc. I had no attraction to him whatsoever. We got along well but for whatever reason, I didn't like him. I would make excuses to stay out of the room until I knew he was asleep. It wasn't until I had an eye opener 3 years ago and realized our marriage may end. Since that day we have not slept apart. That is not to say we don't have problems, because we do. We are struggling through his porn addiction/recovery at this time. I don't believe your wife is having migraines 24/7, that is her go-to excuse. Please call her on it before it is too late. You deserve attention, intimacy and sex.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

1lonelyguy said:


> I do all the cooking, most of the stuff with the kids, and almost all the housework.




Almost 100% of sexless men do this. Most women advise to do more but I've yet to see it actually work. I HAVE seen pulling back and stopping all help work though. People work hard to avoid consequences. No sex so you do more housework. That's a reward, not a consequence.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Who makes more money, you or her?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MartinBeck said:


> OP -
> She's not attracted to you. To cut short the analysis of nearly all LD/HD issues where only the HD partner is available for discussion , you unfortunately have only a few options:
> - Leave
> - Stay and be unhappy.
> ...


I wonder if hearing the bolded would light any woman's fire. 

"Wife, I am insisting on frequent, enthusiastic sex with you. I have a right to expect access to your time, effort, and energy inside and outside of the bedroom."

Just does not do anything for me, personally.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

It is much more effective to deliver the message by your actions. My personal favorite is spending a weekend away. Just go do something (non-sexual recreation) that you have been putting off to have time for her.


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

jld said:


> I wonder if hearing the bolded would light any woman's fire.
> 
> "Wife, I am insisting on frequent, enthusiastic sex with you. I have a right to expect access to your time, effort, and energy inside and outside of the bedroom."
> 
> Just does not do anything for me, personally.


Totally agree with you. If my husband had ever said anything like this to me I would have shown him the door. Then again my perception is probably skewed because my H was so verbally, emotionally, and sexually abusive. I no longer want anything to do with a dominating man either in the bedroom or out.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

She's checked out of the marriage. Think about a flip scenario- whats wrong with her bluntly saying he needs to step it up around things she needs from him - family participation, not working late constantly, more equitable distribution of housework, etc?
Adults have clear communication and state expectations.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hellomynameis said:


> Totally agree with you. If my husband had ever said anything like this to me I would have shown him the door. Then again my perception is probably skewed because my H was so verbally, emotionally, and sexually abusive. I no longer want anything to do with a dominating man either in the bedroom or out.


I like dominance in a man if it means leadership, and is mature and loving.

But if it means selfish and entitled and otherwise domineering, then I'm out.

OP, figure out her love language. Then use it to make massive deposits in her emotional bank account.

I am inspired to have sex with my husband. And one of the reasons is because he would not think to say anything like what I quoted in my earlier post. I cannot stress enough what a total turnoff that sort of entitlement would be.

And if you decide to spend less time with her, she might actually appreciate it. It might be less stressful for her. What do you do then? Are you ready for a divorce?

If she is ill and yet is still working, still helping provide for the family, you are very fortunate. Have you made a list of everything you are grateful to her for? How about sharing it with her?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Yes spending less time is a two edged sword. Generally she will appreciate it at first. Especially if you take the kids with you. Eventually she will start to wonder what is so fun that you would chose it over her. It's a bit of a dread game. The total message isn't "I don't need you". The real message is "I'm an interesting guy who does fun things." The trick is to make her jealous of the Fun. Not jealous of someone else.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Hellomynameis said:


> Totally agree with you. If my husband had ever said anything like this to me I would have shown him the door. Then again my perception is probably skewed because my H was so verbally, emotionally, and sexually abusive. I no longer want anything to do with a dominating man either in the bedroom or out.




Have you read "His Needs Her Needs"? (It's in the stock set of frequently suggested reading on this forum.)

Is either spouse abusive If explicitly asking the other to put more effort in any of the "His" or "Her" needs?

"I need recreational companionship and you should come to the archery range with me every other Saturday? You used to and now you don't and that's important to me!"

"I need emotional support and I need 1/2 hour a day where I can tell you about my day before dinner and you need to give me your attention and listen to me!"


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Yes, I would say my H is also heartbroken about my situation. He, like most men, wants to fix it but knows that he can't. And I think that makes him feel just as hopeless and frustrated as I am sometimes.
> 
> He has only lost his cool about sex a hand full of times in our marriage. I know he wants more than I am currently giving. I also know he wants me to be fully engaged and mentally present each time and he realizes I don't have a lot of control over my illness right now so I can't always give him that. God bless him, he has always been an exceptionally patient person - much moreso than me - and that helps I think.
> 
> ...


Your situation sounds very similar to my wife's. I hope you can get help!
Do you have periods of time where all settles down for several days?


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

turnera said:


> IF her migraines are not psychosymatic, then take care of her. But get a second opinion. I've dealt with many women with migraines and more than half of them were psycosomatic.


Good question. They think its hormonal, but nothing is helping at this point.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

uhtred said:


> This takes the discussion out of the usual Low Desire / High Desire territory.
> 
> On the one occasion my wife had a serious long term medical issue, sex was the last thing on my mind. I just wanted her to get better.


That was so true for the first few months, and now whenever she is having an episode. Where it gets more complicated is when she seems ok and goes back to life as usual in between episodes. For example, last week she had Migraines several days. I wasn't looking for sex. I just wanted to be there for her. Saturday through Tuesday she was feeling pretty good. During that time I'm wanting to be sexually intimate. She wants to relax and catch up on things that matter to her; tv shows and movies, friends and family, and getting out of the house. I know all these are important to bring back a sense of normalcy to her life, but I feel that sex is importnt too. If this is the new normal, I'm just wondering how to best move forward.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

hifromme67 said:


> Unfortunately this was me a few years ago. I hated having sex with my husband. I would do it but I would say the same things. I would tell him to just hurry up, I didn't care if I had an O or not. I didn't want him kissing me, etc. I had no attraction to him whatsoever. We got along well but for whatever reason, I didn't like him. I would make excuses to stay out of the room until I knew he was asleep. It wasn't until I had an eye opener 3 years ago and realized our marriage may end. Since that day we have not slept apart. That is not to say we don't have problems, because we do. We are struggling through his porn addiction/recovery at this time. I don't believe your wife is having migraines 24/7, that is her go-to excuse. Please call her on it before it is too late. You deserve attention, intimacy and sex.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is a fear of mine. It wears deeply on me. It makes me feel undesired and by extension unloved. She doesn't say it, even when I've broached the subject, but her actions seem to lead in this direction. I initiate all physical touch, kissing is kept to little pecks here and there, and sex is almost always as quick as possible.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Almost 100% of sexless men do this. Most women advise to do more but I've yet to see it actually work. I HAVE seen pulling back and stopping all help work though. People work hard to avoid consequences. No sex so you do more housework. That's a reward, not a consequence.


You might be right, but I really don't do more work to get anything. I do it because I want to be helpful, and I mostly enjoy it. Maybe that's the problem.



WorkingOnMe said:


> Who makes more money, you or her?


I do by far, but she has a more demanding job.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

MartinBeck said:


> Have you read "His Needs Her Needs"? (It's in the stock set of frequently suggested reading on this forum.)
> 
> Is either spouse abusive If explicitly asking the other to put more effort in any of the "His" or "Her" needs?
> 
> ...


I have read it. I've talked to my wife about it. She doesn't like to get into relational help stuff.

We have lost the recreational companionship part of our relationship. We really have no common recreational like. Work consumes much of my wife's free time, otherwise she is resting at home in front of the TV, playing on her phone, or going out with her mom or sister. I used to go with her to see movies, but that went away too. Maybe that would help.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

jld said:


> I like dominance in a man if it means leadership, and is mature and loving.
> 
> But if it means selfish and entitled and otherwise domineering, then I'm out.
> 
> ...


I tried to address the love language thing a couple of years ago. She was upset that I had to ask after more than 25 years. Never answered me. I still don't really know what's her love language.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

1lonelyguy said:


> I tried to address the love language thing a couple of years ago. She was upset that I had to ask after more than 25 years. Never answered me. I still don't really know what's her love language.


Read about them. Try them out on her. Observe her reactions. That should tell you.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It sounds like she has spending time with you as a low priority and having migraines just adds to the problem.

I get migraines, with aura, with blindness, and they can last for days. In my last relationship, I'd be mad I had a migraine because it was interfering with our sex life. I was dying to make up for lost time as soon as the migraine passed. Don't blame your current issues solely on the migraines. It seems to be more a relational rather than health related problem.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

1lonelyguy said:


> ......I just wanted to be there for her. Saturday through Tuesday she was feeling pretty good. During that time I'm wanting to be sexually intimate. *She wants to relax and catch up on things that matter to her; tv shows and movies, friends and family, and getting out of the house.* I know all these are important to bring back a sense of normalcy to her life, but I feel that sex is importnt too. If this is the new normal, I'm just wondering how to best move forward.


I agree with Livvie and others, you are low on her priorities. Let me put that another way, your marriage is low on her priorities.

That was the case in my marriage when I was in a Sex Starved Marriage. With the help of a Sex Therapist things changed. The ST pointed out to my wife that a sexless marriage would likely result in divorce. My wife finally admitted that. I was asked if I had thought about divorce if things didn't change. I told them I had, that I had researched State divorce laws and promised myself that by a certain birthday, I would be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman, hopefully my wife, but if that wasn't possible with someone else after the divorce. My wife was stunned as was the ST, but the ST said that was a very reasonable well thought out approach and that gave my wife plenty of time to figure out what she wanted.

A few months later, my LD wife asked me if I would really divorced her over something as unimportant as sex. I told her yes and that intimacy and feeling close to her was not unimportant.

You really need to read Glover's NMMNG and MW Davis The Sex Starved Marriage. Your wife's medical issues are real and will mean that sex and intimacy may be different than what it is that you want. A good ST can help you and your wife explore options and negotiate common ground so that you each get what you need and are able to give.

Good luck.


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## hifromme67 (Oct 30, 2016)

If she is too "ill" to have sex, how is she not "ill" to work so much, go out and play around on phone? Simply ask her if she would rather be divorced. 


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

hifromme67 said:


> If she is too "ill" to have sex, how is she not "ill" to work so much, go out and play around on phone? Simply ask her if she would rather be divorced.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, threaten divorce.

That will really give her the hots for you.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Has your wife tried Sumatriptan (Imitrex is the brand name) for the migraines? My wife has migraines, and this drug helps prevent them when she feels one starting, or greatly alleviates the symptoms otherwise. So, migraines seldom have a lasting effect on our sex life, and often, sex releases endorphins that help her feel better!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

::ripping Sarcasm::: What really gives me a desire to fulfill my wife's emotional needs is when she places me at a low priority. I get so turned on by her lackluster commitment to marriage and disinterest in resolving problems. I get such a warm Fuzzy feeling of security when she Never expresses admiration, gratitude, or even interest. :::end sarcasm::::
You see it is not a threat of divorce, it is a relationship status check. In the vain hope that she will say "why would I want that?" Which will be unfortunately followed up by a statement that she is perfectly happy with the way things are and there is no reason anyone should make a change.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> ::ripping Sarcasm::: What really gives me a desire to fulfill my wife's emotional needs is when she places me at a low priority. I get so turned on by her lackluster commitment to marriage and disinterest in resolving problems. I get such a warm Fuzzy feeling of security when she Never expresses admiration, gratitude, or even interest. :::end sarcasm::::
> You see it is not a threat of divorce, it is a relationship status check. In the vain hope that she will say "why would I want that?" Which will be unfortunately followed up by a statement that she is perfectly happy with the way things are and there is no reason anyone should make a change.


Somebody has to be the leader, Mr. Nail. Somebody has to go first.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Wow @jld I'm really having trouble answering that comment. Yes someone needs to be a leader in this relationship. Mrs. Lonelyguy appears to be very ineffective at it. She ignores important issues. She focus on the trivial. She makes poor decisions. She can't organize a dinner.
But Mr. 1lonelyguy is no better, he has continued for 7 years to follow her down this road to dissolution. He has failed to take control of a conversation. He fears to voice his needs. Sorry 1lonelyguy, I'm sure this feels harsh. In order to find the path home we first need to determine where we are.
I think that jld has hit on a very important point here. Leadership is missing. But leadership is more than being the first to offer the olive branch. It is having a realistic plan, and having the will to implement it. 
Now the loneyguy couple has both of those, Mrs has the will. Mr. has the plan. Can they get it together?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

1lonelyguy said:


> Your situation sounds very similar to my wife's. I hope you can get help!
> Do you have periods of time where all settles down for several days?


I used to have less migraines and more normal time. Migraines were infrequent, maybe 1-2x a month. Since November I've been lucky to get a full 24 hours symptom free. 



1lonelyguy said:


> That was so true for the first few months, and now whenever she is having an episode. Where it gets more complicated is when she seems ok and goes back to life as usual in between episodes. For example, last week she had Migraines several days. I wasn't looking for sex. I just wanted to be there for her. Saturday through Tuesday she was feeling pretty good. During that time I'm wanting to be sexually intimate. She wants to relax and catch up on things that matter to her; tv shows and movies, friends and family, and getting out of the house. I know all these are important to bring back a sense of normalcy to her life, but I feel that sex is importnt too. If this is the new normal, I'm just wondering how to best move forward.


So - under the migraines she is low drive, as her baseline. I try to live as normal of a life as possible when I am symptom free. I am also fairly LD and honestly - sex is just NOT always the very first thing on my mind. It's just not. It has absolutely nothing to do with my husband or anyone else. LD are often portrayed as evil selfish people. How often do you think about running a marathon? Flying a plane? Not often? That's kind of what it's like..

You said her migraines are hormonal? Her sex drive is also driven (or stalled) by those hormones. If they are out of whack it's going to affect her drive. 



1lonelyguy said:


> This is a fear of mine. It wears deeply on me. It makes me feel undesired and by extension unloved. She doesn't say it, even when I've broached the subject, but her actions seem to lead in this direction. I initiate all physical touch, kissing is kept to little pecks here and there, and sex is almost always as quick as possible.


Have you told her this? Your feelings? Women don't tend to attach the same meaning to sex that men do (on average)...I don't feel love thru sex. It's just an exercise and an orgasm. It took me a very long time of reading here to realize that men felt differently. Again...has zero to do with my husband (believe it or not). It's just how I am wired. 

Men tend to keep their feelings hidden and don't put them into words, when that is a big part of what women talk about all of the time. Our language is based on feelings. If my husband prefaced anything he said to me with "it makes me feel like..." I would be all ears. Maybe that's just me.


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## hifromme67 (Oct 30, 2016)

jld said:


> Yeah, threaten divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> That will really give her the hots for you.





I did not mean to threaten but to simply ask if a divorce wpuld make her happier or what are her intentions? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I used to have less migraines and more normal time. Migraines were infrequent, maybe 1-2x a month. Since November I've been lucky to get a full 24 hours symptom free.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good advice and insights. Ive talked to her about it, and I've used the "it makes me feel like" language. It helps for about a month but then back to business as usual. She has shared that she just doesn't think about sex. It has no impact on our relationship from her point of view. She expends her energy at work and just wants to relax at home. Sex is just one more thing to do.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

1lonelyguy said:


> Good advice and insights. Ive talked to her about it, and I've used the "it makes me feel like" language. It helps for about a month but then back to business as usual. She has shared that she just doesn't think about sex. It has no impact on our relationship from her point of view. She expends her energy at work and just wants to relax at home. Sex is just one more thing to do.


You can try having a 'state of the marriage' meeting once a month, where you are both free to discuss how you see things going; that would keep her aware, maybe strengthen her resolve to make you happy. As long as you do it in a safe, non-threatening way.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> You can try having a 'state of the marriage' meeting once a month, where you are both free to discuss how you see things going; that would keep her aware, maybe strengthen her resolve to make you happy. As long as you do it in a safe, non-threatening way.


See, this is one of those pieces of advice that is not wrong to give, but not always applicable, either. "Keep it safe for her". Yes, some women need to feel safe in order to allow themselves to be sexual. For them, sex involves vulnerability and they can't allow themselves to be vulnerable if they don't feel safe. So there is no sex when they don't feel safe. Other women, when they feel too "safe" in the relationship, stop feeling sexual attraction for their partner. Part of their desire for their partner is knowing that he is strong enough to dump her if she doesn't meet his needs sexually. Once they realize he will stay even if she cuts him off, she no longer finds him attractive and she stops desiring him sexually.

OP needs to determine which kind of woman he is with, and which approach is likely to work with his wife. For some women, the threat "have more sex with me or I am out of here" destroys their attraction for their man. For other women, it enhances their attraction to him. One problem is where the guy doesn't understand this or where he is with the wrong kind of woman given what type of guy he is. Another problem is where the woman is not honest (mostly with herself) about which type of woman she is. Some women who need a threatening guy to feel turned on believe that they need to feel safe to feel turned on. Then both partners become frustrated when he somehow can't seem to make it safe enough for her to feel sexual. When of course, what he really needs to do is destabilize to create some heat and friction. Wish I had known all that 25 years ago.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

1lonelyguy said:


> Good advice and insights. Ive talked to her about it, and I've used the "it makes me feel like" language. It helps for about a month but then back to business as usual. She has shared that she just doesn't think about sex. It has no impact on our relationship from her point of view. She expends her energy at work and just wants to relax at home. Sex is just one more thing to do.


Sex is just one more thing to do.

Yep. Amen to that. 

I don't always feel that way, but the more full my plate is, the less likely sex is to be included on that plate at all. 

I have to be relaxed. Mental to do list needs to be fully completed and then I need a good amount of decompression time after that. With the illness - my decompression time has increased exponentially. I'm not really sleeping anymore and it takes me a long time to bounce back to normal these days. 

Then - when I finally feel like I can crawl out of the bunker in the war zone I've been living in - do I start to entertain the idea of sex. 

Unfortunately that is not really conducive to how real life works. Who has time to relax and decompress? Everyone's got things to do. When you're sick it's not like the world stops turning for you. Work still needs to be done. 

Being sick actually increases my stress because I constantly think of how much time I've just lost to being incapacitated. Time that I can't get back. The to do list gets compressed to the point that it is truly overwhelming at times. 

Again- none of this is my husbands fault. We are just fundamentally different. He feels sex is relaxing and it's way higher on his priority list for doing during his "decompression" time...where for me, I don't find myself able to truly enjoy it and it becomes another thing to do. 

For my husband- he has zero interest in being treated as another item on the to do list. If I am not in the same frame of mind as he is, forget it. So most of the time we do forget it. I haven't found a solution to getting myself in his state of mind. I honestly don't know if it is even possible. I mean, I get there sometimes. Once or twice a month. But not nearly as much as I know he wants. 

Before this recent out of control sickness hit me I was actually working with my doctors to try to see if I can do anything chemically to get myself there. Maybe if I just had more of an innate urge that would overrule every other negative part of my brain and I'd be living on the same side of street as my H. I never got there...scrapped that to change gears and try to figure out how to just be normal again and get away from these migraines. 

I always see a lot of people who advise to escalate, threaten, give ultimatums. If you've talked to her about it before, she knows. My H never talks to me about it and I know. You don't live with someone 24/7 for years and not know. What's worse is after we do have sex, he is so cheerful and loving. It's nice and all but it just serves to highlight how he's mostly NOT that way, due to me. A little bit like rubbing salt into a wound. 

Maybe my H will get to the ultimatums and divorce one day. I wouldn't blame him. Right now somewhere deep down he must feel that the pros outweigh the cons overall or I expect he would be gone. But when he does give me those divorce papers- I feel like I will have no choice but to sign them. At the end of the day, this is me. This is my core personality. Whats even worse is that not even is this my personality but i am not even healthy. I am losing hope that i will ever be "normal" (healthy) again. Its a huge burden for him. If that can't make him happy then I must not be the right person for him.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Sex is just one more thing to do.
> 
> Yep. Amen to that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for being honest with your feelings. It is helpful. If your H is like me, he loves you and is willing to sacrifice in this area of life in order to be with you. However, it does take a heavy toll on us. Our self-perception and feeling of being loved are marred by it. That's why I can't just let it go.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

".....I always see a lot of people who advise to escalate, threaten, give ultimatums. If you've talked to her about it before, she knows. My H never talks to me about it and I know. You don't live with someone 24/7 for years and not know. What's worse is after we do have sex, he is so cheerful and loving. It's nice and all but it just serves to highlight how he's mostly NOT that way, due to me. A little bit like rubbing salt into a wound...."

Very well said. 

There is an old saying about the glass being half full or half empty, that contains a lot of wisdom. You might want to think about that and re-read what you said about the joy your husband feels after he has had sex with you.

Having been in a Sex Starved Marriage and gotten very close to divorcing my wife, I can tell you that the bonding, emotional closeness and intimacy associated with a healthy sexual relationship can be an incredible source of happiness in a man. It is not about getting off or getting laid, it is about emotionally connecting to someone I love and having those loving feeling be reinforced.

I think I understand what you are saying about having to be in the right mood, as my wife is much the same. 

Good luck to you.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> ".....I always see a lot of people who advise to escalate, threaten, give ultimatums. If you've talked to her about it before, she knows. My H never talks to me about it and I know. You don't live with someone 24/7 for years and not know. What's worse is after we do have sex, he is so cheerful and loving. It's nice and all but it just serves to highlight how he's mostly NOT that way, due to me. A little bit like rubbing salt into a wound...."
> 
> Very well said.
> 
> ...


All this is right on target in our situation. It's just hard for me to know that she knows this about me and doesn't respond. There is a part of me that asks, "Does she ever want to do anything that's special for me, that says I love you in my love language?"


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

1lonelyguy said:


> All this is right on target in our situation. It's just hard for me to know that she knows this about me and doesn't respond. There is a part of me that asks, "Does she ever want to do anything that's special for me, that says I love you in my love language?"


I'm an oddball. I'm very independent by nature and don't really feel like I "need" anyone. Husband included. (Insert shock and horror.) 

It sounds terrible, right? 

The thing is, it works both ways. I don't WANT to be needed, either. I want to be my own person and want to be surrounded by people who are also capable of meeting their own emotional needs. I'm great mother material, right? 

I don't wish to harm anyone. Intentionally or unintentionally, and that's what makes it so tough. Knowing that I am unintentionally causing my H undue unhappiness because my body doesn't work right is a little hard to deal with. Our biggest hurdle is that he wants a genuine desire and response from me that matches his exactly and I don't think I can provide that to him. 

I believe in love languages but moreso in the opposite - love busters I think they are called? As in, here's the things that will really make me feel like garbage. Please don't do those things. The active ones- the "please do these" things- I really don't care one way or the other. I dont have a "need" to feel loved. As long as you aren't actively against me, I'm pretty happy. 

I could be alone (and if I am ever to divorce, likely will be) and I think I'd be just fine with it. 

It took me a long time to realize that I am odd for feeling that way. I thought my way was "normal" and that everyone else was just too needy and clingy. Now I think I am some kind of robot without the part of my brain that makes me human LOL. 

Anyway... I try not to be a bad person, wife or mother. I do have noble intentions for whatever those are worth. I'm not sure that I always get it right but I do try. I just often feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Holdingontoit said:


> See, this is one of those pieces of advice that is not wrong to give, but not always applicable, either. "Keep it safe for her". Yes, some women need to feel safe in order to allow themselves to be sexual. For them, sex involves vulnerability and they can't allow themselves to be vulnerable if they don't feel safe. So there is no sex when they don't feel safe. Other women, when they feel too "safe" in the relationship, stop feeling sexual attraction for their partner. Part of their desire for their partner is knowing that he is strong enough to dump her if she doesn't meet his needs sexually. Once they realize he will stay even if she cuts him off, she no longer finds him attractive and she stops desiring him sexually.
> 
> OP needs to determine which kind of woman he is with, and which approach is likely to work with his wife. For some women, the threat "have more sex with me or I am out of here" destroys their attraction for their man. For other women, it enhances their attraction to him. One problem is where the guy doesn't understand this or where he is with the wrong kind of woman given what type of guy he is. Another problem is where the woman is not honest (mostly with herself) about which type of woman she is. Some women who need a threatening guy to feel turned on believe that they need to feel safe to feel turned on. Then both partners become frustrated when he somehow can't seem to make it safe enough for her to feel sexual. When of course, what he really needs to do is destabilize to create some heat and friction. Wish I had known all that 25 years ago.


hold, what I meant by safe was that the conversations need to not regress into shouting matches or who has it worse-fests or getting your feelings hurt by hearing the truth. Two intelligent adults having an intelligent discussion while explaining the truths about their opinions.


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## 1lonelyguy (Oct 5, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I'm an oddball. I'm very independent by nature and don't really feel like I "need" anyone. Husband included. (Insert shock and horror.)
> 
> It sounds terrible, right?
> 
> ...


Wow! That's very real. Thank you. Maybe my wife feels like this in some ways, but I'm not sure. She doesn't talk that way. I do get the feeling that she is often just going through the motions sexually. We worked through that somewhat already. I've accepted the fact that sex now is mostly for me, and that it's ok if she isn't over-the-moon excited. Of course, that is not the best either because now she doesn't see the need for much in the way of foreplay or intimacy.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> hold, what I meant by safe was that the conversations need to not regress into shouting matches or who has it worse-fests or getting your feelings hurt by hearing the truth. Two intelligent adults having an intelligent discussion while explaining the truths about their opinions.


Not every adult is willing or able to have a calm conversation about this. H2 and I, for example, could never do that. Not even with professional MC or ST involved. Some women want to talk and hear validation and know that their feelings are understood and respected. Some women want to be thrown down on the bed and pounded. Some of the women who want to be thrown on the bed get turned on by a good shouting match. Make up sex can be very hot. Very important to know which type of woman you are with. H2 and I never had make up sex. Important for me to not regress into shouting matches, because the first sign of aggression on my part turned her off. Trouble is, "safe" never caused her to be turned on. She needed to be thrown on bed and pounded to be turned on. Even though, if you asked her, she would say that was insulting and she would never stay with a man who did that. Problem is, both are correct. She would never stay with someone who did that. But she would also never be turned on by someone who didn't. Dilemma I have never figured out how to resolve.

Not everyone is an adult. Not everyone who is an adult can turn off their emotions and have a rational discussion about an emotionally laden topic. World would be a better place if everyone could. We do not live in that world.


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