# She divorced me because...



## BlueWoman

I am sure I will get flamed for this, but OMG, Yes! This exactly. 

She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink | Must Be This Tall To Ride


----------



## OpenWindows

I saw this on Facebook recently. And it's so true. I was a walkaway wife, because my husband could never understand this.

Especially the idea that it was unfair for him to say that she should just tell him what to do, and he would do it, because it still lays all of the responsibility on her... So true.


----------



## richie33

I would say that woman has lead a very charmed life if that's what would take to end a marriage.


----------



## OpenWindows

richie33 said:


> I would say that woman has lead a very charmed life if that's what would take to end a marriage.


Maybe it is a charmed life. A century ago, we wouldn't have been allowed to leave at all. You get that's it not just about dishes, right?



> The wife doesn’t want to divorce her husband because he leaves used drinking glasses by the sink.
> 
> She wants to divorce him because she feels like he doesn’t respect or appreciate her, which suggests he doesn’t love her, and she can’t count on him to be her lifelong partner.


----------



## Marduk

Bwahahahaha

If you assign that much meaning to a glass next to the sink, the problem isn't that the world (and your husband) doesn't conform to your value system, it's that your value system is totally skewed.

Go back to your romance novels and let him find a real woman.


----------



## BlueWoman

Read the article @richie33. It's not really about the dishes. 

For me, I was completely complicit in my X's passive aggressive refusal to deal with house hold chores. I took care of everything, bills, household duties, insurance, etc. He would only do something if I asked him to do it, and usually it took multiple times of asking and then finally getting pissed before he would do it. 

In the beginning, I rationalized it. He was in school and it was my job to support him. But once he got out of school, I started expecting him to pull his weight. But it was too late. The pattern had been established and he had no interest in changing it. So he "fell in love" with a younger version of me who didn't want anything from him. But the truth was, I too was heading towards being a walk a way wife. I really resented him by the end. 

He had this weird fear of being emasculated that he was unwilling to do anything just because I wanted it. So there was no effort to care for me. And of course, as this began to progress, I began to pull back and became hostile. 

And I have to say, at least at this point, I'm not willing go through that again. I'm going to give birth if I'm going to be someones mother.


----------



## richie33

OpenWindows said:


> Maybe it is a charmed life. A century ago, we wouldn't have been allowed to leave at all. You get that's it not just about dishes, right?


I am sure it's not. But that same man was most likely the same way while they were dating. A ring doesn't magically change a person.


----------



## Yeswecan

I like tater-tots. 


My W does not like going to bed or leaving the house with dishes in the sink. Some people just have their thing.


----------



## jb02157

OpenWindows said:


> Maybe it is a charmed life. A century ago, we wouldn't have been allowed to leave at all. You get that's it not just about dishes, right?


That's exactly the problem, it's too easy to get divorced these days and when you do, women get rewarded for it. We should go back to the way it was, where you really can't get a divorce.


----------



## OpenWindows

richie33 said:


> I am sure it's not. But that same man was most likely the same way while they were dating. A ring doesn't magically change a person.


No, it doesn't. But the author said that he felt the ring entitled him to her respect, and he learned the hard way that he was wrong too.


----------



## BlueWoman

marduk said:


> Bwahahahaha
> 
> If you assign that much meaning to a glass next to the sink, the problem isn't that the world (and your husband) doesn't conform to your value system, it's that your value system is totally skewed.
> 
> Go back to your romance novels and let him find a real woman.


I love how you just proved the authors point. 

Here is my priority in a relationship, my wants and needs are just as important as his. In a relationship I believe it's my responsibility to figure out what makes him happy (or at least happier) and do it. I don't do things that make his life more difficult or more irritating. But that's a two streak. And I hate to say it, but I rarely see examples of men going out of their way for their wives happiness as much as the women go out of their way for their husbands. (This isn't always true. It does happen.) And in fact men are chastised for doing that. Ever heard of the term "***** whipped"? It's not socially acceptable to care about your wife's feelings. It's not socially acceptable to understand and respect that she has different values and responsibilities. 

But here's the thing, I don't have to put up with that. I work full time as well. I don't have to stay married. (And I didn't.) I used to be totally pro marriage. But having done it, I got to say, it was a raw deal for me and I'm not sure I would want to do it again. (To note: I do take responsibility for my failing marriage. I was completely codependent. Sadly, when I stepped back hoping he would do his share he couldn't do it. But what can I expect, he never could it.)


----------



## Lostinthought61

Some men do wash the dishes, do the laundry, we vacuum, pick up the kids, clean the house, and we even iron....does that mean we can also walk away because of a sexless marriage......is this a equal opportunity to walk away for men as well...because i have people who count on me, i have bills to pay, i don't have the luxury to walk away.


----------



## BlueWoman

richie33 said:


> I am sure it's not. But that same man was most likely the same way while they were dating. A ring doesn't magically change a person.


This is exactly true. But sadly women are taught that we are supposed to put up with it. It's on us to suck it up. 

If you read the article, (I really suggest you do.) This man is talking about what he did wrong in his marriage. 

But man, it just reminded me of all my resentments towards my ex.


----------



## richie33

BlueWoman said:


> This is exactly true. But sadly women are taught that we are supposed to put up with it. It's on us to suck it up.
> 
> If you read the article, (I really suggest you do.) This man is talking about what he did wrong in his marriage.
> 
> But man, it just reminded me of all my resentments towards my ex.


Well I guess the tides have change cause us men are now dealing the same behaviors from their wives.


----------



## BlueWoman

jb02157 said:


> That's exactly the problem, it's too easy to get divorced these days and when you do, women get rewarded for it. We should go back to the way it was, where you really can't get a divorce.


No, the exact problem is that you probably really believe this. 

Women only get rewarded for ending a marriage, because their lives improve once they shed all that dead weight. At least that's the case for me. 

And to be honest, my ex was a hell of a lot better off when we divorced than he was when we started.


----------



## Yeswecan

Xenote said:


> Some men do wash the dishes, do the laundry, we vacuum, pick up the kids, clean the house, and we even iron....does that mean we can also walk away because of a sexless marriage......is this a equal opportunity to walk away for men as well...because i have people who count on me, i have bills to pay, i don't have the luxury to walk away.


MEANINGLESS! You left a glass in the sink. That's it! We are done! :grin2:


----------



## Marduk

BlueWoman said:


> I love how you just proved the authors point.
> 
> Here is my priority in a relationship, my wants and needs are just as important as his. In a relationship I believe it's my responsibility to figure out what makes him happy (or at least happier) and do it. I don't do things that make his life more difficult or more irritating. But that's a two streak. And I hate to say it, but I rarely see examples of men going out of their way for their wives happiness as much as the women go out of their way for their husbands. (This isn't always true. It does happen.) And in fact men are chastised for doing that. Ever heard of the term "***** whipped"? It's not socially acceptable to care about your wife's feelings. It's not socially acceptable to understand and respect that she has different values and responsibilities.
> 
> But here's the thing, I don't have to put up with that. I work full time as well. I don't have to stay married. (And I didn't.) I used to be totally pro marriage. But having done it, I got to say, it was a raw deal for me and I'm not sure I would want to do it again. (To note: I do take responsibility for my failing marriage. I was completely codependent. Sadly, when I stepped back hoping he would do his share he couldn't do it. But what can I expect, he never could it.)


It really irritates me that my wife's bra and panties often don't match.

I mean, it's a small thing that would only take an extra few seconds out of her day, and would mean a lot to me.

It must mean that she's quite the ***** for not conforming to my value system, and that she doesn't love me, and deserves to be divorced.

Bwahahahaha!


----------



## OpenWindows

Xenote said:


> Some men do wash the dishes, do the laundry, we vacuum, pick up the kids, clean the house, and we even iron....does that mean we can also walk away because of a sexless marriage......is this a equal opportunity to walk away for men as well...because i have people who count on me, i have bills to pay, i don't have the luxury to walk away.


Of course you can leave. You just choose not to, because you feel you have greater obligations. And some of us feel we can meet our obligations better on our own than with our partner. That may, or may not, be true for you.


----------



## jld

From the article:

_"She wants to divorce him because she feels like he doesn’t respect or appreciate her, which suggests he doesn’t love her, and she can’t count on him to be her lifelong partner. She can’t trust him. She can’t be safe with him. Thus, she must leave and find a new situation in which she can feel content and secure."_

I wish more men understood this. It is the small things that pile up over time that often break a marriage, the small things that leave her feeling alone. And finally she decides that if she feels alone, she might as well be alone. Then she won't have to worry about that glass anymore.

Great thread, BW.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> From the article:
> 
> _"She wants to divorce him because she feels like he doesn’t respect or appreciate her, which suggests he doesn’t love her, and she can’t count on him to be her lifelong partner. She can’t trust him. She can’t be safe with him. Thus, she must leave and find a new situation in which she can feel content and secure."_
> 
> I wish more men understood this. It is the small things that pile up over time that often break a marriage, the small things that leave her feeling alone. And finally she decides that if she feels alone, she might as well be alone. Then she won't have to worry about that glass anymore.
> 
> Great thread, BW.


If you feel alone because of a glass next to a sink, news flash -- you're alone of your own volition.

There's a great big world out there filled with grown ups with grown up issues and grown up problems.

Perhaps one day this guy's wife will join the rest of us in it.

But I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## Lostinthought61

OpenWindows said:


> Of course you can leave. You just choose not to, because you feel you have greater obligations. And some of us feel we can meet our obligations better on our own than with our partner. That may, or may not, be true for you.


your right, there is no chain around my ankle that will tie me down, but if i was to leave the financial burden that my children would have to incur was to great to impose on them, and the guilt to great to enjoy my life alone. I am sure you had your reasons, and i don't need to know them but you need to know is that there are men who are not afraid to give hundred and 110% in a marriage and still find themselves on the short end of the stick...not to be a martyr...just to be a dad. And one day when i walk away there will be regrets.


----------



## SadSamIAm

The article is about how the wife lost respect for her husband because he left dishes by the sink when he knew this was REALLY IMPORTANT to her. 

Now if it was a sink full of dishes, I can understand. If he continually walks by a sink full of dishes and leaves her to unload the dishwasher and fill it up, then he is being a lazy ass. 

I see the point of the article, but the example they use is stupid. Yes, the guy has to respect what his wife feels is important. But if it is this small of a thing, then she is the one with the issue. A dish left by the sink shouldn't be this important to anyone. 

The cynic in me says this same wife has probably been avoiding having sex with him for the last couple of weeks. Something that is very important to a marriage.


----------



## CatJayBird

marduk said:


> It really irritates me that my wife's* bra and panties often don't match*.
> 
> I mean, it's a small thing that would only take an extra few seconds out of her day, and would mean a lot to me.
> 
> It must mean that she's quite the ***** for not conforming to my value system, and that she doesn't love me, and deserves to be divorced.
> 
> Bwahahahaha!


Unacceptable!!


----------



## richie33

jld said:


> From the article:
> 
> _"She wants to divorce him because she feels like he doesn’t respect or appreciate her, which suggests he doesn’t love her, and she can’t count on him to be her lifelong partner. She can’t trust him. She can’t be safe with him. Thus, she must leave and find a new situation in which she can feel content and secure."_
> 
> I wish more men understood this. It is the small things that pile up over time that often break a marriage, the small things that leave her feeling alone. And finally she decides that if she feels alone, she might as well be alone. Then she won't have to worry about that glass anymore.
> 
> Great thread, BW.


We understand it. You don't think we have wives that do the same things. I am a clean freak, lived on my own basically since I was 17. I meet my wife who is the polar opposite. Not sure she can pick out a mop in a police lineup. I could have become resentful that in 16 years she still can't. I don't.....why cause I focus on what she is great at. And I figured out long ago I can't change her and only change control my thoughts.


----------



## EleGirl

From the article:


There is only ONE reason I will ever stop leaving that glass by the sink. A lesson I learned much too late: Because I love and respect my partner, and it REALLY matters to her. I understand that when I leave that glass there, it hurts her— literally causes her pain—because it feels to her like I just said: “Hey. I don’t respect you or value your thoughts and opinions. Not taking four seconds to put my glass in the dishwasher is more important to me than you are.”

There something that he still does not get.

Leaving his glass by the sink is also telling her that she's the maid and/or his mother. That it's her job to do the stuff that he could not be bothered with. It's telling her that as his maid/mother she can put the stupid glass in the dishwasher. It's a huge show of disrespect.

When she has to tell him what to do, again it reduces her to the maid/mother. She is his wife. She wants to be his wife, not his mother or maid.

He goes on about the fact that men need to be respected by their wives. Well, women need to be respected by their husband just as much. Respect is not only the domain of men.

And of course she did not divorce him only because he left a glass by the sink. There were thousands of other small disrespects through the years. The glass is used symbolically by the author of the article.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> From the article:
> 
> _"She wants to divorce him because she feels like he doesn’t respect or appreciate her, which suggests he doesn’t love her, and she can’t count on him to be her lifelong partner. She can’t trust him. She can’t be safe with him. Thus, she must leave and find a new situation in which she can feel content and secure."_


Just a really dumb example.

He leaves a dish by the sink and she concludes:

1) he doesn't respect her
2) he doesn't appreciate her
3) he doesn't love her
4) he will be a bad lifelong partner
5) she can't trust him

REALLY!!!! Over a glass by the sink.


----------



## OpenWindows

For most of us, it's not just a glass by the sink.

For me, it was dishes on the counter, on every table, on the couch, under the beds. Dirty clothes left on the floor, wherever he happened to take them off. Rotting food by his bedside table.

And him telling me, "It's no big deal. It's just housework. Just leave it there. If you want it picked up, tell me and I'll pick it up. But I can't stop doing it, I can't change, so you should change and be more understanding. It's not my fault it's dirty, you should have told me to clean it up."

It's not housework, it's disrespect and lack of consideration.


----------



## EleGirl

richie33 said:


> I am sure it's not. But that same man was most likely the same way while they were dating. A ring doesn't magically change a person.


My bet is that he was not like that at all before they married. A ring does often change people quite a bit. I've experienced that. So have a of other people. 

A therapist explained that people have been taught models of how to behave in different circumstances. There is the boyfriend/girlfriend models, the live-together modles and the married-person models. Often people change to be like their own same-sex parent after marriage.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> From the article:
> 
> 
> There is only ONE reason I will ever stop leaving that glass by the sink. A lesson I learned much too late: Because I love and respect my partner, and it REALLY matters to her. I understand that when I leave that glass there, it hurts her— literally causes her pain—because it feels to her like I just said: “Hey. I don’t respect you or value your thoughts and opinions. Not taking four seconds to put my glass in the dishwasher is more important to me than you are.”
> 
> There something that he still does not get.
> 
> Leaving his glass by the sink is also telling her that she's the maid and/or his mother. That it's her job to do the stuff that he could not be bothered with. It's telling her that as his maid/mother she can put the stupid glass in the dishwasher. It's a huge show of disrespect.
> 
> When she has to tell him what to do, again it reduces her to the maid/mother. She is his wife. She wants to be his wife, not his mother or maid.
> 
> He goes on about the fact that men need to be respected by their wives. Well, women need to be respected by their husband just as much. Respect is not only the domain of men.
> 
> And of course she did not divorce him only because he left a glass by the sink. There were thousands of other small disrespects through the years. The glass is used symbolically by the author of the article.


You're hilarious.

Assigning that much meaning to a glass next to a sink -- which he's not finished using -- is totally ludicrous.

All he did was buy into her delusion.

I've been that guy with the glass and the sink. Or the toilet seat. Or whatever minor thing IS SUCH A ****ING GIANT BIG DEAL.

And I chased that glass and the dishes and the toilet seats...

Guess what it was really about?

Control. Finding a reason to leave. Having someone jump through your hoops. Finding someone to be the scapegoat for your unhappiness.

This thread is no different than the WAW thread.

External validation based upon meaningless symbols.

Chasing that path will always lead to ruin. If you feel loved through dishes, you should examine your definition of love and your definition of dishes.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

While I went through a time with my H when we first met where he was less than stellar around the house and his mother insisted he needed a list, upon which I promptly informed her he was too smart for that, I cannot imagine leaving over something that petty. Some people need to grow up.

My response to my H. As smart as he is, I cannot imagine having to provide a list. He needed an attitude adjustment because he was a spoiled brat by his Mama. Love her dearly, but she realizes now she didn't help either of her sons by not expecting them to help. Her son ended learning the hard way that it matters.

But I STILL cannot fathom being that petty... geeze.

Today, my H graciously pays attention to when I am struggling. I get overwhelmed with everything we are trying to do in this last push to get me retired. He has come a LONGGGGGGGGGGG way.


----------



## EleGirl

jb02157 said:


> That's exactly the problem, it's too easy to get divorced these days and when you do, women get rewarded for it. We should go back to the way it was, where you really can't get a divorce.


Sure, and trap people who are in abusive relationships. Not such a good idea.

The issue today is that people have to actually treat their spouse well to keep their spouse. And yes, sometimes it means that some people are unreasonable about what they expect. But it's still better than trapping people in really bad situations.


And there is nothing trivial aobut what the author of that article talks about. He wanted respect from his wife. But he did not want to have to treat her with respect. Who wants that?


----------



## richie33

EleGirl said:


> My bet is that he was not like that at all before they married. A ring does often change people quite a bit. I've experienced that. So have a of other people.
> 
> A therapist explained that people have been taught models of how to behave in different circumstances. There is the boyfriend/girlfriend models, the live-together modles and the married-person models. Often people change to be like their own same-sex parent after marriage.


He may have been on his best behavior or she was so driven to get married she ignored the red flags.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> It's not housework, it's disrespect and lack of consideration.


I understand, OW.

I will admit that I probably have high standards in some ways. I may expect too much. 

But when I have to ask for something time and again, only to see him sitting on the couch watching a movie, or prioritizing something else over whatever I have asked for how many times, I start losing respect for him. If I lose respect for him, I don't want to be close. 

The article talked about how much men want to be respected. If they want true respect, they need to earn it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> From the article:
> 
> 
> There is only ONE reason I will ever stop leaving that glass by the sink. A lesson I learned much too late: Because I love and respect my partner, and it REALLY matters to her. I understand that when I leave that glass there, it hurts her— literally causes her pain—because it feels to her like I just said: “Hey. I don’t respect you or value your thoughts and opinions. Not taking four seconds to put my glass in the dishwasher is more important to me than you are.”
> 
> There something that he still does not get.
> 
> Leaving his glass by the sink is also telling her that she's the maid and/or his mother. That it's her job to do the stuff that he could not be bothered with. It's telling her that as his maid/mother she can put the stupid glass in the dishwasher. It's a huge show of disrespect.
> 
> When she has to tell him what to do, again it reduces her to the maid/mother. She is his wife. She wants to be his wife, not his mother or maid.


Nobody should have to tell anyone to put a glass in the dishwasher. If SHE is telling him to do this, then SHE is being his mother. Nothing to do with him. 

My wife will do this to me at times. Then the next day, I come home from work and there are a bunch of dishes and stuff left out from her having lunch earlier in the day. 

Do you know what I do? I realize that she probably had to leave and didn't have time to clean up before going, so I clean up. I don't tell her to do anything.




> He goes on about the fact that men need to be respected by their wives. Well, women need to be respected by their husband just as much. Respect is not only the domain of men.
> 
> And of course she did not divorce him only because he left a glass by the sink. There were thousands of other small disrespects through the years. The glass is used symbolically by the author of the article.


I get that it is symbolic. But it was a very bad example. Makes it sound like the husband should jump for any little thing his wife wants no matter how OCD she is.


----------



## EleGirl

Xenote said:


> Some men do wash the dishes, do the laundry, we vacuum, pick up the kids, clean the house, and we even iron....does that mean we can also walk away because of a sexless marriage......is this a equal opportunity to walk away for men as well...because i have people who count on me, i have bills to pay, i don't have the luxury to walk away.


Of course you can walk away is you are in a sexless marriage just as a woman in a sexless marriage can walk away.

Women also have people who count on them. Having people who count on them is not something only men have. Women have bills to pay too.

It is your choice to not divorce. You could still take care of those who count of you divorced or not.


----------



## SadSamIAm

OpenWindows said:


> For most of us, it's not just a glass by the sink.
> 
> For me, it was dishes on the counter, on every table, on the couch, under the beds. Dirty clothes left on the floor, wherever he happened to take them off. Rotting food by his bedside table.
> 
> And him telling me, "It's no big deal. It's just housework. Just leave it there. If you want it picked up, tell me and I'll pick it up. But I can't stop doing it, I can't change, so you should change and be more understanding. It's not my fault it's dirty, you should have told me to clean it up."
> 
> It's not housework, it's disrespect and lack of consideration.


This would have been a better example. The guy who leaves stuff everywhere and is a slob.


----------



## EleGirl

Xenote said:


> your right, there is no chain around my ankle that will tie me down, but if i was to leave the financial burden that my children would have to incur was to great to impose on them, and the guilt to great to enjoy my life alone. I am sure you had your reasons,


I don't think she has children with her husband.



Xenote said:


> and i don't need to know them but you need to know is that there are men who are not afraid to give hundred and 110% in a marriage and still find themselves on the short end of the stick


Yes there are. And no one here is talking about those men.

There are also women who are not afraid to give 110% in a marriage and still find themselves on the short end of the stick. 



Xenote said:


> ...not to be a martyr...just to be a dad. And one day when i walk away there will be regrets.


So you are a guy who plans on being a walk away husband. But you are not ok with women who do the same thing that you are planning to do. Interesting.


----------



## Lostinthought61

EleGirl said:


> Of course you can walk away is you are in a sexless marriage just as a woman in a sexless marriage can walk away.
> 
> Women also have people who count on them. Having people who count on them is not something only men have. Women have bills to pay too.
> 
> It is your choice to not divorce. You could still take care of those who count of you divorced or not.


Yeah....we call that selfishness...there is enough of that already in this world, i don't need to add too it. is that the role model you want for kids...when things make you unhappy...just walk away.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> I don't think she has children with her husband.
> 
> 
> Yes there are. And no one here is talking about those men.
> 
> There are also women who are not afraid to give 110% in a marriage and still find themselves on the short end of the stick.
> 
> 
> 
> So you are a guy who plans on being a walk away husband. But you are not ok with women who do the same thing that you are planning to do. Interesting.


A person that leaves a relationship because their partner left a glass by the sink is a WAS.

A person that stays until his kids are grown and then leaves a sexless marriage is not a WAS.


----------



## MJJEAN

Xenote said:


> your right, there is no chain around my ankle that will tie me down, but if i was to leave the financial burden that my children would have to incur was to great to impose on them, and the guilt to great to enjoy my life alone. I am sure you had your reasons, and i don't need to know them but you need to know is that there are men who are not afraid to give hundred and 110% in a marriage and still find themselves on the short end of the stick...not to be a martyr...just to be a dad. And one day when i walk away there will be regrets.


Just curious, but is your wife disabled and unable to work post divorce in order to help provide for the children?


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> You're hilarious.
> 
> Assigning that much meaning to a glass next to a sink -- which he's not finished using -- is totally ludicrous.


There is a saying in the counseling field that when a person comes in complaining that their spouse does not put the cap on the toothpaste tube, it’s bad, the marriage is over. Why? Because it’s a SYMBOL of a thousand little thanking. The cap is the straw that broke the camels’ back. The author of that article is using a glass by the sink as an example of one of many small things that he did over years that were basically him disrespecting his wife. 
Sure one glass by the sink is nothing. But thousands of things that he ignored, refused to do, etc empty the love bank.



marduk said:


> All he did was buy into her delusion.


I've been that guy with the glass and the sink. Or the toilet seat. Or whatever minor thing IS SUCH A ****ING GIANT BIG DEAL. [/QUOTE]
Sure, putting dishes in the dishwasher, cleaning mirrors, etc are all the woman’s job. How dare she expect a man to do things like that? She needs to know her place.


marduk said:


> And I chased that glass and the dishes and the toilet seats...
> 
> Guess what it was really about?
> 
> Control. Finding a reason to leave. Having someone jump through your hoops. Finding someone to be the scapegoat for your unhappiness.


That’s what my son’s father was like. He there was never anything I could do that was right. Not one thing. If I did x, I should have done Y. Sure there are people like your wife and my ex. But it is not the only scenario out there.

The situation with my step-kids dad was completely different. He never complained about anything, never nit picked, that part was great. But he also treated me like his slave… he would not do anything, not one thing around the house. He expected me to do all the housework and take care of not only my son but his two. Did he leave his drinking glasses by the sink? Yep and everything else too. He clearly had no respect for me at all.


marduk said:


> This thread is no different than the WAW thread.
> 
> External validation based upon meaningless symbols.
> 
> Chasing that path will always lead to ruin. If you feel loved through dishes, you should examine your definition of love and your definition of dishes.


Please tell this to Xenote, since he is plotting to leave his wife, he plans to be a walk away husband. I guess you think that’s awful too?


----------



## EleGirl

Xenote said:


> Yeah....we call that selfishness...there is enough of that already in this world, i don't need to add too it. is that the role model you want for kids...when things make you unhappy...just walk away.


You plan on walking away. So I'm not real sure why you are so self righteous here.

I left my son's father because he was abusive (verbally & physically), withheld sex for years, and cheated with a revolving door. I stayed with him until I could safely leave with my son.. that was 4 years longer than I wanted to (it was a complicated legal issue).

I divorced my second husband because he refused get a job, he refused to lift a finger around the house and yard, spent every waking hour playing video games and surfing the web (read porn) and refused to take care of his own children. So once his kids were out of high school I divorced him.

But go ahead and act superior and like I was frivols to divorce them. What a piece of work!


----------



## OpenWindows

Xenote said:


> Yeah....we call that selfishness...there is enough of that already in this world, i don't need to add too it. is that the role model you want for kids...when things make you unhappy...just walk away.


The role model I want for my children is that when someone continually treats you with disrespect, you don't have to sit there and take it just to spare their feelings. I don't want my daughters to feel obligated to stay with someone they are unhappy with. I want them to be happy... married or not.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I understand, OW.
> 
> I will admit that I probably have high standards in some ways. I may expect too much.
> 
> But when I have to ask for something time and again, only to see him sitting on the couch watching a movie, or prioritizing something else over whatever I have asked for how many times, I start losing respect for him. If I lose respect for him, I don't want to be close.
> 
> The article talked about how much men want to be respected. If they want true respect, they need to earn it.


Oh, and I hear you answer his requests of you in a perfectly timely manner, oops, oh wait... Except having groceries in the fridge when he gets home from working all week. Guess that road works both ways.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I understand, OW.
> 
> I will admit that I probably have high standards in some ways. I may expect too much.
> 
> But when I have to ask for something time and again, only to see him sitting on the couch watching a movie, or prioritizing something else over whatever I have asked for how many times, I start losing respect for him. If I lose respect for him, I don't want to be close.
> 
> The article talked about how much men want to be respected. If they want true respect, they need to earn it.


Ah, I understand.

He should earn your respect through strict obedience and aqcuiescence to your values and priorities.

How foolish of him to think that he has self-determination.


----------



## naiveonedave

this cracks me up, there is no 'history of neglect' by the man in this story. There is so much projection, it is killing me.


----------



## Yeswecan

jld said:


> From the article:
> 
> _"She wants to divorce him because she feels like he doesn’t respect or appreciate her, which suggests he doesn’t love her, and she can’t count on him to be her lifelong partner. She can’t trust him. She can’t be safe with him. Thus, she must leave and find a new situation in which she can feel content and secure."_
> 
> I wish more men understood this. It is the small things that pile up over time that often break a marriage, the small things that leave her feeling alone. And finally she decides that if she feels alone, she might as well be alone. Then she won't have to worry about that glass anymore.
> 
> Great thread, BW.


And the same sentiment can be expressed for men who do not feel respected or appreciated. It is a two way street in many respects.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> You plan on walking away. So I'm not real sure why you are so self righteous here.
> 
> I left my son's father because he was abusive (verbally & physically), withheld sex for years, and cheated with a revolving door. I stayed with him until I could safely leave with my son.. that was 4 years longer than I wanted to (it was a complicated legal issue).
> 
> I divorced my second husband because he refused get a job, he refused to lift a finger around the house and yard, spent every waking hour playing video games and surfing the web (read porn) and refused to take care of his own children. So once his kids were out of high school I divorced him.
> 
> But go ahead and act superior and like I was frivols to divorce them. What a piece of work!


Ele, I struggle how reading into this guy's story about the glass and the sink (stated in isolation) has any relevance or relationship to what you went through.

Or is there a relationship between equating a serial abuser and cheat with someone who leaves a glass by the sink?


----------



## lifeistooshort

jb02157 said:


> That's exactly the problem, it's too easy to get divorced these days and when you do, women get rewarded for it. We should go back to the way it was, where you really can't get a divorce.


That means when your wife cuts off the sex you're richly entitled to you can't go anywhere. 

Will not being able to leave still apply?

I can think of few things more pathetic and unattractive then one so wants to force someone to stay married.

If my hb wants to go he knows where the door is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lostinthought61

MJJEAN said:


> Just curious, but is your wife disabled and unable to work post divorce in order to provide for the children?


No not at all very healthy, and she is a great mom to our kids.....a very wonderful person and works hard....its just that we have all the kids in college now and it takes every cent to put them trough it. 

don't get me wrong i will ALWAYS love her, and always respect her, but decades of rejects takes their tolls, in this case bot of us agree, that we are in for the kids...no regrets there either. 

here is where i stand, you can agree or not...if there is abuse in the household; mental, physical emotional, if there is violence or a threat to life...i would be the first one to tell you "get out of there and protect the kids....but if you walk away because your unhappy, and you don't think your life would be like this...then that is what call selfishness...man or woman. self-centerness is the hallmark of our demise as civilization.


----------



## BetrayedDad

marduk said:


> It really irritates me that my wife's bra and panties often don't match.


In all seriousness. That REALLY annoys me when women do that too.

Easily as much as a stupid dish by the sink. Probably more.


----------



## Lostinthought61

EleGirl said:


> You plan on walking away. So I'm not real sure why you are so self righteous here.
> 
> I left my son's father because he was abusive (verbally & physically), withheld sex for years, and cheated with a revolving door. I stayed with him until I could safely leave with my son.. that was 4 years longer than I wanted to (it was a complicated legal issue).
> 
> I divorced my second husband because he refused get a job, he refused to lift a finger around the house and yard, spent every waking hour playing video games and surfing the web (read porn) and refused to take care of his own children. So once his kids were out of high school I divorced him.
> 
> But go ahead and act superior and like I was frivols to divorce them. What a piece of work!


look Elle, i'm not superior at all, you and i have gone down this road on other topics we disagree, frankly i don't like you and i am sure you don't like me...and i don't care...if you read my other post you will see i would be on your side on your first marriage....as for your second marriage you...you married the loser not me..your problem not mine. 

the disbandment of my marriage in the future will come when we both realize its time to go and not before.


----------



## SadSamIAm

I think in the vast majority of cases, these arguments about things like the dish by the sink or the laundry on the floor are about POWER. 

The reason I say this is because the rules change. Depending on moods. Depending on who is involved.

My wife can leave a dish full of dishes all day long with no issues when I am not home. Doesn't bother her in the least. She can watch TV for a few hours with the sink full. But that same evening, she will have no problem telling me to put away one glass that was only there for a couple of minutes.

She can complain about one pair of pants on the floor in the bedroom. But then later in the day I come home and she will have several items of clothing out in the bedroom as she was deciding what to wear.

Same thing with the bathroom in our bedroom. I will hear about a spot of toothpaste left in my sink (we have two sinks). But the next day, my sink will have several long hairs (definitely hers) in it and her side will be a disaster with makeup and hair straighteners and brushes and whatever else left on the counter.

It isn't about the dish. It isn't about the laundry. It is about the need to CONTROL.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> There is a saying in the counseling field that when a person comes in complaining that their spouse does not put the cap on the toothpaste tube, it’s bad, the marriage is over. Why? Because it’s a SYMBOL of a thousand little thanking. The cap is the straw that broke the camels’ back. The author of that article is using a glass by the sink as an example of one of many small things that he did over years that were basically him disrespecting his wife.
> Sure one glass by the sink is nothing. But thousands of things that he ignored, refused to do, etc empty the love bank.


We are saying the same thing. That the glass is a symbol.

Where we disagree is that you seem to be saying that allowing herself to equate the glass symbolically with love and respect is valid, and I do not.

Because a glass by the sink is not love, nor is it respect. That is delusion.

Chase delusions all you like and put them in your love bank... But that doesn't make it true.

And comparitively, assigning such significance to mundane things is a path for endless pain in your life -- because there will always be glasses by the sink and you will always be offended that others do not value such things.



> Sure, putting dishes in the dishwasher, cleaning mirrors, etc are all the woman’s job. How dare she expect a man to do things like that? She needs to know her place.


Funny, in that marriage, I did 99% of the cooking and cleaning.

And somehow did 99% of it wrong.

My current wife hates the way I load the dishwasher. So she loads the dishwasher while I do homework with the kids. 

Is there symbolic meaning there?

No.



> That’s what my son’s father was like. He there was never anything I could do that was right. Not one thing. If I did x, I should have done Y. Sure there are people like your wife and my ex. But it is not the only scenario out there.


I struggle with ANY scenario where leaving a glass next to the sink when maybe you're not done with it is a big deal in ANY reality.



> The situation with my step-kids dad was completely different. He never complained about anything, never nit picked, that part was great. But he also treated me like his slave… he would not do anything, not one thing around the house. He expected me to do all the housework and take care of not only my son but his two. Did he leave his drinking glasses by the sink? Yep and everything else too. He clearly had no respect for me at all.


Wait, are we talking about the glass now, or the 'everything else?'


> Please tell this to Xenote, since he is plotting to leave his wife, he plans to be a walk away husband. I guess you think that’s awful too?


I think it's awful if people leave their marriage without warning and opportunity to improve it.

And I think it's awful if people leave their marriage over foolish things, because all it does is show that people have gambled their lives on foolish people.


----------



## BetrayedDad

If anyone wants to assign THAT much symbolism over a stupid dish then they are MENTALLY ILL.

Why should he have to change? Maybe he doesn't care if the dishes are done every other day.

So she doesn't want to stop being a clean freak but HE has to change to prove he loves her LOL.

So there can be no compromise on this issue and divorce is clearly the only solution to her?

Oh the hypocrisy... This women is batsh!t crazy and he's an idiot for blaming himself. The end.

She did him a favor releasing him from a life sentence with a nut job. How about this....

GET OVER YOURSELF!


----------



## MJJEAN

Xenote said:


> Yeah....we call that selfishness...there is enough of that already in this world, i don't need to add too it. is that the role model you want for kids...when things make you unhappy...just walk away.


Life is far too short to spend it with someone you aren't in love with and do not want to be married to any longer.

Deliberately staying in a miserable situation isn't mentally healthy. It's masochism.

YES! God, yes! I hope and pray my kids will follow my example and leave any unhappy relationship they may find themselves in. There are few things as soul destroying as living day in and day out with a spouse that you don't love.

The very idea that my child would watch me stay in a sexless/loveless marriage for the sake of obligation and emulate that in their own lives makes me a bit nauseous.


----------



## SadSamIAm

naiveonedave said:


> this cracks me up, there is no 'history of neglect' by the man in this story. There is so much projection, it is killing me.


I had to read the article again to see if I was missing something.


----------



## SadSamIAm

BetrayedDad said:


> In all serious. That REALLY annoys me when women do that too.
> 
> Easily as much as a stupid dish by the sink. Probably more.


Wonder what Elle would tell her husband if he told her to wear matching ones every day? 

I am guessing he would be told to not try to control her. As she should.


----------



## ButtPunch

Here is a post from @FrenchFry from a different thread that I think applies here. 

Hello! I'm kinda like your wife. I'm 29, My job is kinda demanding, but I really love it and it takes up a lot of my brain space. Before I went back to work, I stayed at home and I was bored out of my mind so I spent most of my day reading and entertaining my son. When I went back to work, I spend a lot of my home time reading, not mommy porn but a lot of various blogs and websites that either directly correlate to my job or are a total waste of time like Real Housewifes stuff.

I'm a terrible housekeeper. It's boring as hell and most of the time as long as I can find what I or what my family needs, I don't really care too hard about how the house looks.

My husband, imo, is a neat freak.* He cannot go to bed with dishes in the sink*, he is constantly organizing drawers and he can't sit down if he thinks that "something" needs to be done.

So, of course, I drive him crazy. In fact, 97% of our fights in our marriage are about how the house looks. 97% and we were so close to divorcing when I registered here because all we did is fight about how we kept the house.


The hardass route? Smashing things? Threatening divorce? Terrible. My husband tried this as well. I'm not scared of him, I can survive on my own and instead of shocking me into compliance, I retreated further into my head so when he started yelling, I started thinking about chocolate cake and rainbows. Basically him getting frustrated and walking away ALSO gave me exactly what I wanted: more free time to read.

Oh, man call me lazy. In fact, point out how lazy I am by huffing around the house doing chores. I can tune that out as well and you are doing chores. It's a win-win.

Listen to @Anon Pink. You wife is an escapist and trying to out-escape her is going to frustrate you immensely. If she is anything like me, she will get tired of being criticized and the sex that is so good? Will stop and you will have a checked out wife.

My husband and I don't fight anymore. 

1. Be more interesting than the books. My husband will, all in good nature (Super key) take the tablet out of my hand and say "I want to go on a hike. Do you want to come? He knows my likes, what I want to do for fun and can usually entice me to get out of the house. 

2. So, we have to get out of the house. Lets clean together. I know, it's unfair that you have to clean together to get your wife to clean. However, it works like magic. I like cleaning WITH my husband WITH a goal to do something fun. It's motivation plus I get to spend extra time with my love.

3. No guilting. No anger. No passive-agressive manuvers. Be straight-forward. What do you need done? What do you need help with? As long as my husband asks in a genuinely nice manner for me to do something while I am at home, I'll do it. To my standard, but I'm willing to try to elevate it as long as he is specific and nice.


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> While I went through a time with my H when we first met where he was less than stellar around the house and his mother insisted he needed a list, upon which I promptly informed her he was too smart for that, I cannot imagine leaving over something that petty. Some people need to grow up.
> 
> My response to my H. As smart as he is, I cannot imagine having to provide a list. He needed an attitude adjustment because he was a spoiled brat by his Mama. Love her dearly, but she realizes now she didn't help either of her sons by not expecting them to help. Her son ended learning the hard way that it matters.
> 
> But I STILL cannot fathom being that petty... geeze.
> 
> Today, my H graciously pays attention to when I am struggling. I get overwhelmed with everything we are trying to do in this last push to get me retired. He has come a LONGGGGGGGGGGG way.


What would you do had he stayed exactly as he was? What if he just would not do a thing unless you gave him that list? And even then not done much or any of the things on that list?


----------



## ButtPunch

I agree with Marduk that the husbands values and his wifes values are different. 

I learned quickly in my marriage that my wife doesn't have near the energy I do. 

I am a drawer organizer as well. I had to accept my wife for who she was or I 
would need to get a divorce. My wife is no clean freak and I can't MAKE her one. 

Neither could the woman in this article. She had every right to walk away and I 
think she probably did the poor fellow a favor.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> What would do had he stayed exactly as he was? What if he just would not do a thing unless you gave him that list? And even then not done much or any of the things on that list?


I would have hired a maid to get it off both of us if we were both working full time.


----------



## nirvana

Xenote said:


> Some men do wash the dishes, do the laundry, we vacuum, pick up the kids, clean the house, and we even iron....does that mean we can also walk away because of a sexless marriage......is this a equal opportunity to walk away for men as well...because i have people who count on me, i have bills to pay, i don't have the luxury to walk away.


After doing half of the chores, if we complain about a sexless marriage, men are blamed for not making the woman comfortable, not listening to her etc etc. Always the man's fault.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I had to read the article again to see if I was missing something.


The Buddha said "what we think, we become."

If we think glasses and sinks have significance and control in our lives, they do. And if you want to live in that kind of world -- controlled by glasses and sinks, you will.

And you will fail to be happy, because I've never seen a human being be happy because of sinks and glasses.

When we had our first child, my wife and I were somewhat at odds about clutter, and toys, and having the 'perfect house' for our perfect child.

And then we had another, and so while she had the baby I cared more for our toddler. And of course I did everything wrong and we fretted about the disorder and the laundry and such things.

And then we discovered that our newborn had a potentially fatal heart condition, and suddenly none of that mattered. What mattered is that our kids were safe and happy and we had to be there for them and each other through all that, the house and the laundry be damned.

Of course, it all worked out and everything is fine. But we don't find much significance in such things any longer. We both do what we can do, and that's it.


----------



## Lostinthought61

MJJEAN said:


> Life is far too short to spend it with someone you aren't in love with and do not want to be married to any longer.
> 
> Deliberately staying in a miserable situation isn't mentally healthy. It's masochism.
> 
> YES! God, yes! I hope and pray my kids will follow my example and leave any unhappy relationship they may find themselves in. There are few things as soul destroying as living day in and day out with a spouse that you don't love.
> 
> The very idea that my child would watch me stay in a sexless/loveless marriage for the sake of obligation and emulate that in their own lives makes me a bit nauseous.


MJ,

i agree with your situation, and what you had to do...and i pointed that out in my early post...no one ...man or woman she tolerate physical, emotional or mental abuse....no one. you took the right action.


----------



## nirvana

ButtPunch said:


> I agree with Marduk that the husbands values and his wifes values are different.
> 
> I learned quickly in my marriage that my wife doesn't have near the energy I do.
> 
> I am a drawer organizer as well. I had to accept my wife for who she was or I
> would need to get a divorce. My wife is no clean freak and I can't MAKE her one.
> 
> Neither could the woman in this article. She had every right to walk away and I
> think she probably did the poor fellow a favor.


Similar situation.
When we got married, she was the clean one and I was the messy one. 
More than a decade later, she is the messy one and she does not care anymore. Her closet is a horrendous mess while mine is neat and I can find my stuff. If someone comes by and looks, they will think that her closet is mine because of the untidiness. She also leaves food lying in her car, like banana peels and open lunch containers while my car is pristine.

Her excuse is that she focuses on other things which are more important. And having a clean house does not mean kids are taken care of. Weird logic.

Her jacket is on the floor, never on the hangar. I just take it and throw it in a place where I don't have to see it. She spends time looking for it, that's her problem.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> I would have hired a maid to get it off both of us if we were both working full time.


And the only symbolic significance would be some digits in a bank account somewhere.

As it should be.

Life is for living. Not for stuff.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> The Buddha said "what we think, we become."
> 
> If we think glasses and sinks have significance and control in our lives, they do. And if you want to live in that kind of world -- controlled by glasses and sinks, you will.
> 
> And you will fail to be happy, because I've never seen a human being be happy because of sinks and glasses.
> 
> When we had our first child, my wife and I were somewhat at odds about clutter, and toys, and having the 'perfect house' for our perfect child.
> 
> And then we had another, and so while she had the baby I cared more for our toddler. And of course I did everything wrong and we fretted about the disorder and the laundry and such things.
> 
> And then we discovered that our newborn had a potentially fatal heart condition, and suddenly none of that mattered. What mattered is that our kids were safe and happy and we had to be there for them and each other through all that, the house and the laundry be damned.
> 
> Of course, it all worked out and everything is fine. But we don't find much significance in such things any longer. We both do what we can do, and that's it.


Exactly I don't tie my self worth and love of me to a clean or not clean house. I do want him to notice if I'm struggling. But there are times that struggle is self inflicted and he is right to stand up to me. I don't let him cop out and he doesn't let me be entitled. It works for us.


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

OpenWindows said:


> For most of us, it's not just a glass by the sink.
> 
> For me, it was dishes on the counter, on every table, on the couch, under the beds. Dirty clothes left on the floor, wherever he happened to take them off. Rotting food by his bedside table.
> 
> And him telling me, "It's no big deal. It's just housework. Just leave it there. If you want it picked up, tell me and I'll pick it up. But I can't stop doing it, I can't change, so you should change and be more understanding. It's not my fault it's dirty, you should have told me to clean it up."
> 
> It's not housework, it's disrespect and lack of consideration.


OK, fair enough - it's disrespect and lack of consideration. So why doesn't it work both ways? 

I'm a lot like the guy in the article, and I understand intellectually what women feel like in situations like that - or at least how my wife feels in situations like that. So why doesn't she give me the same respect and consideration when I ask her to do something? I've got one thing that I've consistently asked her to do - put away the blankets on the couch after she uses them so the dogs don't sleep on them. I don't like the blankets to smell like dog. She cannot or will not put them away and it led to fights between my wife and I. Didn't matter to her when I made the connection between what she asks me to do and what I do, and what I ask her to do and what she doesn't do. It's not important to her, but it still was to me. 

So what did I do? Nothing. I've given up getting steamed about it, because like somebody else said I can't control her and can only control myself. I don't know if that's a gender-related thing or a situation where a husband doesn't want to rock the boat with his wife, but at least for this one guy I've learned the hard way to just move on and not point out that she's being hypocritical. Doesn't make me feel any better about it, but it's not going to chip away at my marriage to the point where I feel like I need to walk away.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> And the only symbolic significance would be some digits in a bank account somewhere.
> 
> As it should be.
> 
> Life is for living. Not for stuff.


Always...


----------



## SadSamIAm

ButtPunch said:


> I agree with Marduk that the husbands values and his wifes values are different.
> 
> I learned quickly in my marriage that my wife doesn't have near the energy I do.
> 
> I am a drawer organizer as well. I had to accept my wife for who she was or I
> would need to get a divorce. My wife is no clean freak and I can't MAKE her one.
> 
> Neither could the woman in this article. She had every right to walk away and I
> think she probably did the poor fellow a favor.


From what was written in the article she didn't have a right to walk away. 

But I agree that she did the guy a favor!


----------



## MJJEAN

BetrayedDad said:


> If anyone wants to assign THAT much symbolism over a stupid dish then they are MENTALLY ILL.
> 
> Why should he have to change? Maybe he doesn't care if the dishes are done every other day.
> 
> So she doesn't want to stop being a clean freak but HE has to change to prove he loves her LOL.
> 
> So there can be no compromise on this issue and divorce is clearly the only solution to her?
> 
> Oh the hypocrisy... This women is batsh!t crazy and he's an idiot for blaming himself. The end.
> 
> She did him a favor releasing him from a life sentence with a nut job. How about this....
> 
> GET OVER YOURSELF!


Awww, you almost had it and then lost it.

He doesn't care if there are dishes in the sink or a sock on the floor.

She's a neat freak.

I'd bet money there were other personality traits they had that aggravated each other to no end. I'd bet there were other key areas where they had opposing life views.

It's really not about the dish or about how him leaving that dish makes her feel as much as it is about the fact that these were two incompatible people who had the misfortune to love each other at one point and yet be unable to live happily together.

I know I have little habits and traits that annoy my DH. DH has little habits and traits that annoy me. But we overlook those things as something we accept about each other and let them go years ago. Still annoying, but not in a relationship threatening kind of way. More in a comedy routine kind of way.

Why do we "put up with" each other? Because in most ways we are very compatible, we're into each other physically and mentally, and we love each other.

I think couples that are genuinely base compatible and who share a healthy physical and emotional attraction will either never mind the glass on the sink, put it away and move on, or make an inside joke of it.


----------



## EleGirl

richie33 said:


> He may have been on his best behavior or she was so driven to get married she ignored the red flags.


Or more likely, she was not 'driven (aka desperate) to get married' but he truly presented himself as someone who he would not be in marriage.

I dated and lived with my son's father for 5 years before marrying him. He was a kind, loving man. He was very HD as am I. He never yelled, never picked on me. He never raised a hand to me. By second year of our marriage he was yelling at me all the time, I could not do anything right. He was hitting, pushing, shoving me into the wall. He was also cheating. By the 3rd year he stopped having sex with me. Now either I married his evil twin or after marriage he turned into his father (who I had never met and did not know was like this.)

Before I married my step kid's father he was a hard worker. He had a very good job in IT. Had worked all through high school to help support his mom and sisters, he was in the Army for 10 years, then got that great job for 15 years. He completely re-did the back yard in my house becaseu he wanted to.. worked really hard at it. Kept up his own home iwht the 2 children he had custody of. And when he was visiting me, he helped in the house so we could go do things we enjoyed.

As soon as we married he stopped doing anything in the house and with/for his kids. He refused to spend any time with me. He had gotten a new job to move to where I was. And he was laid off after 2 years. From that point forward he refused to get a job, refused to do any house or yard work, refused to do anything with/for his own kids and refused to spend time with me. Again I married his useless, lazy, disrespectful evil twin.

Were there red flags? Not for what ended up happened, not in either case.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> Or more likely, she was not 'driven (aka desperate) to get married' but he truly presented himself as someone who he would not be in marriage.
> 
> I dated and lived with my son's father for 5 years before marrying him. He was a kind, loving man. He was very HD as am I. He never yelled, never picked on me. He never raised a hand to me. By second year of our marriage he was yelling at me all the time, I could not do anything right. He was hitting, pushing, shoving me into the wall. He was also cheating. By the 3rd year he stopped having sex with me. Now either I married his evil twin or after marriage he turned into his father (who I had never met and did not know was like this.)
> 
> Before I married my step kid's father he was a hard worker. He had a very good job in IT. Had worked all through high school to help support his mom and sisters, he was in the Army for 10 years, then got that great job for 15 years. He completely re-did the back yard in my house becaseu he wanted to.. worked really hard at it. Kept up his own home iwht the 2 children he had custody of. And when he was visiting me, he helped in the house so we could go do things we enjoyed.
> 
> As soon as we married he stopped doing anything in the house and with/for his kids. He refused to spend any time with me. He had gotten a new job to move to where I was. And he was laid off after 2 years. From that point forward he refused to get a job, refused to do any house or yard work, refused to do anything with/for his own kids and refused to spend time with me. Again I married his useless, lazy, disrespectful evil twin.
> 
> Were there red flags? Not for what ended up happened, not in either case.


And that has what to do with glasses and sinks again?


----------



## jb02157

EleGirl said:


> Sure, and trap people who are in abusive relationships. Not such a good idea.
> 
> The issue today is that people have to actually treat their spouse well to keep their spouse. And yes, sometimes it means that some people are unreasonable about what they expect. But it's still better than trapping people in really bad situations.


There are many who are trapped in bad marriages they wish they could get out of simply because the financial implications would, quite literally, put them in the poor house. For these people, divorce is often forced upon them because it's to easy for their spouse, who would benefit financially, to get one even if there is no reason why. At least back in the old days, one couldn't get a divorce merely to financially take advantage of their spouse, as what happens these all to frequently. So instead of being trapped in a marriage, you're trapped being poor the rest of your life. At least two people in a marriage who don't want to be together can make the best of it and keep a roof over their head and food on the table. 

I have to disagree with the statement that today you have to treat your spouse well to keep them. It's quite the opposite. If you treat your spouse well, they get used it to all the extras you can afford. Then, when financial problems happen you get all the blame and they want out when the gravy train stops. This has happened to so many of my friends it sickens me. You use to have to ride these times out together and it makes you stronger. Today people just quit at the first sign of trouble.


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> Nobody should have to tell anyone to put a glass in the dishwasher. If SHE is telling him to do this, then SHE is being his mother. Nothing to do with him.
> 
> My wife will do this to me at times. Then the next day, I come home from work and there are a bunch of dishes and stuff left out from her having lunch earlier in the day.
> 
> Do you know what I do? I realize that she probably had to leave and didn't have time to clean up before going, so I clean up. I don't tell her to do anything.


I agree that if she starts telling him what to do, then she is putting herself in the mommy position.

If he is constantly leaving a mess (example beyond what the article talked about) then she is putting herself in the position of mommy.

If she give him a list of chores for normal, daily types of chores, then she is putting herself in the position of mommy.

The author said that he told her that she just needed to tell him what to do. That is him trying to put her in the position of mommy. And if she followed through, she was putting herself out as mommy.

When this is the character of the relationship (not an occasional thing) then she has 3 choices, do it all herself, be a mommy to him, or leave. She can tell him that it's not cool and if he does not change then those are those her choices.





SadSamIAm said:


> I get that it is symbolic. But it was a very bad example. Makes it sound like the husband should jump for any little thing his wife wants no matter how OCD she is.


I agree with your assessment of the article. I think that the article does a disservice because it makes it sound like he really is talking about something trivial. And I don't think he is.


----------



## OpenWindows

Lloyd Dobler said:


> OK, fair enough - it's disrespect and lack of consideration. So why doesn't it work both ways?


It should work both ways. I tried to give him that. I folded his clothes the way he wanted, cooked the food he preferred, rearranged my work schedule to accommodate his, etc. And his response was, if I could handle all of that, why couldn't I do MORE?

It wasn't about me not letting go of the little things... I would have had to let go of nearly everything, and I shouldn't have to do that.


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> A person that leaves a relationship because their partner left a glass by the sink is a WAS.
> 
> A person that stays until his kids are grown and then leaves a sexless marriage is not a WAS.


Sure they are a WAS even if they wait until there children are grown. Women who leave for very good reasons, to include a husband who withholds sex, often wait until the children are grown and gone. It's actually one of the most common things about a WAW, they usually wait years to leave.. until the children are gone.

But when a woman does it, she is a hated WAW who had no good reason to leave.

When a man does it there is a good reason.. right?


----------



## ButtPunch

EleGirl said:


> I agree with your assessment of the article. I think that the article does a disservice because it makes it sound like he really is talking about something trivial. And I don't think he is.


It was obviously not trivial to the WAW.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> I have to disagree with the statement that today you have to treat your spouse well to keep them. It's quite the opposite. If you treat your spouse well, they get used it to all the extras you can afford. Then, when financial problems happen you get all the blame and they want out when the gravy train stops. This has happened to so many of my friends it sickens me. You use to have to ride these times out together and it makes you stronger. Today people just quit at the first sign of trouble.


You can treat your spouse well without having to support them financially though.


----------



## naiveonedave

EleGirl said:


> I agree with your assessment of the article. I think that the article does a disservice because it makes it sound like he really is talking about something trivial. And I don't think he is.


that is my point, anything past her walking away due to a glass by the sink is projection. ...


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

OpenWindows said:


> It should work both ways. I tried to give him that. I folded his clothes the way he wanted, cooked the food he preferred, rearranged my work schedule to accommodate his, etc. And his response was, if I could handle all of that, why couldn't I do MORE?
> 
> It wasn't about me not letting go of the little things... I would have had to let go of nearly everything, and I shouldn't have to do that.


Agreed - it should work like that. Why can't everyone be as reasonable as us, right?


----------



## BetrayedDad

MJJEAN said:


> Awww, you almost had it and then lost it.


That's what she said...



MJJEAN said:


> I think couples that are genuinely base compatible and who share a healthy physical and emotional attraction will either never mind the glass on the sink, put it away and move on, or make an inside joke of it.


I agree with this. She blames him for a stupid dish rather than accept personal responsibility from marrying a man THINKING she could change him later into what she wanted. He was always a slob. People are who they are. Does anyone really think this guy was Mr. Clean before he said "I do". PLEASE.

Now this fool blames himself, "If only I put the dish away". To him I say, "No, you IDIOT. If only you knew better than to marry a nut job. The signs were there, you ignored them." He shares responsibility for at least that much. To bad, he's been brainwashed. I've had it happen to me. You feel guilty about the failure and you look for answers. So you start believing the crap you are fed by the broken spouse.


----------



## lifeistooshort

BetrayedDad said:


> If anyone wants to assign THAT much symbolism over a stupid dish then they are MENTALLY ILL.
> 
> Why should he have to change? Maybe he doesn't care if the dishes are done every other day.
> 
> So she doesn't want to stop being a clean freak but HE has to change to prove he loves her LOL.
> 
> So there can be no compromise on this issue and divorce is clearly the only solution to her?
> 
> Oh the hypocrisy... This women is batsh!t crazy and he's an idiot for blaming himself. The end.
> 
> She did him a favor releasing him from a life sentence with a nut job. How about this....
> 
> GET OVER YOURSELF!


You're right, he doesn't have to change. 

But his wife might dump him. 

We all have boundaries which are important to us, and it's up to you to decide whether what your wife needs from you to be married to you is worth it.

I see guys posting on TAM that they're miserable because their wife won't give them a BJ. I personally think that's a stupid reason to blow up a marriage, but maybe to said guy it's that important. 

We all get to decide what we will and won't live with, but what we cannot do is inform our spouse that what bothers them is their problem and then whine when said spouse walks.

And remember that we're getting his perspective; quite possible that if you asked his wife why she dumped him you might get quite a different story.

He perceives it to be over a glass by the sink that represents him not respecting her, but she may have a list of other issues.

They likely see the nature of their issues quite differently.

Guys on TAM b!tch about duty sex but maybe to the wife she's having sex with him so what's the issue? She could come here and say my hb walked because I wouldn't scream like a porn star, while he simply wants a willing participant. But in her mind she was willing because she had sex. See the disconnect in perception? 

Po'd your wife won't scream like a porn star: stupid.
Po'd that your wife only gives duty sex: reasonable. 

When she describes things they sound stupid, yet when he does it the issue becomes reasonable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

Xenote said:


> MJ,
> 
> i agree with your situation, and what you had to do...and i pointed that out in my early post...no one ...man or woman she tolerate physical, emotional or mental abuse....no one. you took the right action.


But the thing is, it wasn't about abuse.

I was living in a house with someone I was pretending friendship with, but who set my teeth on edge by breathing. I didn't much like him and his presence in the room just tensed me up because I just knew he was going to want to talk or something.

It was about waking up in the morning happy if my ex wasn't home because I wouldn't have to hear his inane conversation or see him or smell him. 

It was about wanting to have fun and relax, but having my plan "ruined" because he came home and wanted to participate. 

It was about him wanting to be physically near me and always having to make up excuses to move because I didn't want his touch. Practically hanging off the end of the bed to avoid being cuddled. Finding excuses to sleep elsewhere or "accidentally" falling asleep on the couch.

It was about hearing him talk and wishing I could have a conversation with a man I actually find interesting, intelligent, and witty.

It was about always being expected to pretend warm and friendly feelings I didn't feel.

It was about thinking, day in and day out, that I was missing out on life and love all for the sake of a marriage to someone I didn't have romantic love for or find sexually appealing just so I could say I raised my kids with their father.

The terror I felt when my mom died and I realized I was mortal, that my life was finite, and I was squandering it on this emotionless, joyless, fake existence. *shudder*

A lot of people who have never lived with someone they aren't in love with and not attracted to really can't understand how much it effects everything.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> Sure they are a WAS even if they wait until there children are grown. Women who leave for very good reasons, to include a husband who withholds sex, often wait until the children are grown and gone. It's actually one of the most common things about a WAW,* they usually wait years to leave*.. until the children are gone.
> 
> But when a woman does it, she is a hated WAW who had no good reason to leave.
> 
> When a man does it there is a good reason.. right?


The bolded is the part of the WAW scenario that drives me more up the wall than the ones that just leave for a flight of fancy.

If you wait years to leave, when it maximizes your benefit over your partners, this is quite Machiavellian. Sure, you get to keep your stuff and 'oh my goodness, the children!' 

But it comes at a cost. The cost is years of dishonesty. Telling your husband everything is fine, when it isn't. Telling your husband that you love him, when you don't. Letting him plan his life with you when you know it's not true.

And then, when your conditions are just right, the WAW does what her namesake says -- and walks.

If you want to leave, leave. But say why. If you want to stay until the kids are older, but no longer want to be married and just want to keep up appearances, say so.

But there is no excuse for living a life of deception for years simply because it suits your exit strategy.

That is my problem with the considered WAW scenario. Not that she didn't have good reason to leave. That she didn't act on it accordingly.

It is little different in my mind than spending those years while in an affair. In both scenarios, you're saying one thing, while doing quite another. And benefiting a lot from the dichotomy.


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> And that has what to do with glasses and sinks again?


It often is a good thing to actually read the post that was replied to. The person I replied to was carrying on a side conversation in which he was assuming that no one ever changes after marriage. So I was addressing the fact that a lot of people do change after married; some as soon as the ring goes on.

So please, follow the conversation before jumping on what I say in reply to the line of conversation.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> It often is a good thing to actually read the post that was replied to. The person I replied to was carrying on a side conversation in which he was assuming that no one ever changes after marriage. So I was addressing the fact that a lot of people do change after married; some as soon as the ring goes on.
> 
> So please, follow the conversation before jumping on what I say in reply to the line of conversation.


I was trying very hard to follow the line of thinking, but you lost me. 

Thank you for clarifying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

marduk said:


> The bolded is the part of the WAW scenario that drives me more up the wall than the ones that just leave for a flight of fancy.
> 
> If you wait years to leave, when it maximizes your benefit over your partners, this is quite Machiavellian. Sure, you get to keep your stuff and 'oh my goodness, the children!'
> 
> But it comes at a cost. The cost is years of dishonesty. Telling your husband everything is fine, when it isn't. Telling your husband that you love him, when you don't. Letting him plan his life with you when you know it's not true.
> 
> And then, when your conditions are just right, the WAW does what her namesake says -- and walks.
> 
> If you want to leave, leave. But say why. If you want to stay until the kids are older, but no longer want to be married and just want to keep up appearances, say so.
> 
> But there is no excuse for living a life of deception for years simply because it suits your exit strategy.
> 
> That is my problem with the considered WAW scenario. Not that she didn't have good reason to leave. That she didn't act on it accordingly.
> 
> It is little different in my mind than spending those years while in an affair. In both scenarios, you're saying one thing, while doing quite another. And benefiting a lot from the dichotomy.


Good points.

My W has said several times over the years that I would walk after the kids are grown and out of the home. I never said, indicated or acted in a way that my W would draw this conclusion. However, my W might have been just fishing for a reaction. Not sure. At any rate, walking after the kids leave has never entered my mind. Traveling with my W has always been on my mind.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> I agree that if she starts telling him what to do, then she is putting herself in the mommy position.
> 
> If he is constantly leaving a mess (example beyond what the article talked about) then she is putting herself in the position of mommy.
> 
> If she give him a list of chores for normal, daily types of chores, then she is putting herself in the position of mommy.
> 
> The author said that he told her that she just needed to tell him what to do. That is him trying to put her in the position of mommy. And if she followed through, she was putting herself out as mommy.
> 
> When this is the character of the relationship (not an occasional thing) then she has 3 choices, do it all herself, be a mommy to him, or leave. She can tell him that it's not cool and if he does not change then those are those her choices.


For this example, she has a fourth choice. Change her expectations. Fight battles that matter. Don't become the mother. Accept her husband the way he is.

Do you know what I do when I see a glass by the sink? 

I put it in the dishwasher. Every time! My wife does too.  But sometimes she is in a mood and needs to find out who left it there and chastise them for leaving it there. 

PS. I agree with your 3 choices for someone that is a total slob and has been asked over and over.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

I read this article slightly differently.

I learned a lesson with my last marriage because any little thing that I brought up with my ex husband was turned into a huge fight so I learned to keep my mouth shut. I think a lot of people do this until finally, it piles up to the point where something like a glass by the sink is simply the snowflake that starts the avalanche. 

I know a lot of spouses think they can do things or say things and then after they apologize, it all goes away and resets. But in reality, I think a lot of people (me included) simply never forget anything and then relate each incident to each other and see a pattern of behavior over a long period of time. Once you get to a place where you realize that the pattern isn't going to change and you lose the ability to tolerate it anymore, the marriage is often over. And while it seems its over something trivial its really over a conglomeration of a lot of events and the overall meaning behind them.

And also, people have tolerance for different things. I fully admit that I cannot live with someone who's messy. If my house isn't clean and organized, it messes with my equilibrium and sense of peace and makes it hard for me to concentrate on more important stuff. 

I have a friend who divorced her husband for a number of reasons but mainly because he didn't have sex with her enough. She just couldn't stand it.

People often find importance and significance in things others consider trivial. That's why every spouse should spend a lot of time finding out what drives their partner crazy.


----------



## Lostinthought61

MJJEAN said:


> But the thing is, it wasn't about abuse.
> 
> I was living in a house with someone I was pretending friendship with, but who set my teeth on edge by breathing. I didn't much like him and his presence in the room just tensed me up because I just knew he was going to want to talk or something.
> 
> It was about waking up in the morning happy if my ex wasn't home because I wouldn't have to hear his inane conversation or see him or smell him.
> 
> It was about wanting to have fun and relax, but having my plan "ruined" because he came home and wanted to participate.
> 
> It was about him wanting to be physically near me and always having to make up excuses to move because I didn't want his touch. Practically hanging off the end of the bed to avoid being cuddled. Finding excuses to sleep elsewhere or "accidentally" falling asleep on the couch.
> 
> It was about hearing him talk and wishing I could have a conversation with a man I actually find interesting, intelligent, and witty.
> 
> It was about always being expected to pretend warm and friendly feelings I didn't feel.
> 
> It was about thinking, day in and day out, that I was missing out on life and love all for the sake of a marriage to someone I didn't have romantic love for or find sexually appealing just so I could say I raised my kids with their father.
> 
> The terror I felt when my mom died and I realized I was mortal, that my life was finite, and I was squandering it on this emotionless, joyless, fake existence. *shudder*
> 
> A lot of people who have never lived with someone they aren't in love with and not attracted to really can't understand how much it effects everything.


MJ,

help me understand in another thread he became violent with you (at least in the end) so if you didn't care for this person at the beginning of the relationship, when why stay with him, why deny yourself and to be honest him the pleasure of being with someone who you love and loves him. can you see where it was not fair to him as well?


----------



## Blondilocks

"Guys on TAM b!tch about duty sex", not enough sex, no sex, too much sex, drunk sex, untimely sex, tame sex, wild sex. Let's face it - most guys on here only come on to complain about their sex lives. The guy who wrote the article obviously took a lighthearted approach. Maybe he wanted to b!tch about his sex life, too.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> Sure they are a WAS even if they wait until there children are grown. Women who leave for very good reasons, to include a husband who withholds sex, often wait until the children are grown and gone. It's actually one of the most common things about a WAW, they usually wait years to leave.. until the children are gone.
> 
> But when a woman does it, she is a hated WAW who had no good reason to leave.
> 
> When a man does it there is a good reason.. right?


Doesn't matter if it is a wife or a husband. Withholding sex is a valid reason to leave a marriage. If you have a valid reason for leaving, you don't fit my definition of being a Walk Away Spouse.


----------



## BetrayedDad

lifeistooshort said:


> Po'd your wife won't scream like a porn star: stupid.
> Po'd that your wife only gives duty sex: reasonable.


For porn star sex, I'd personally make sure every single dish was spotless until the day she died. 

That's a better solution than divorce don't you think? And everyone gets what they want.


----------



## Evinrude58

EleGirl said:


> I agree that if she starts telling him what to do, then she is putting herself in the mommy position.
> 
> If he is constantly leaving a mess (example beyond what the article talked about) then she is putting herself in the position of mommy.
> 
> If she give him a list of chores for normal, daily types of chores, then she is putting herself in the position of mommy.
> 
> The author said that he told her that she just needed to tell him what to do. That is him trying to put her in the position of mommy. And if she followed through, she was putting herself out as mommy.
> 
> When this is the character of the relationship (not an occasional thing) then she has 3 choices, do it all herself, be a mommy to him, or leave. She can tell him that it's not cool and if he does not change then those are those her choices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your assessment of the article. I think that the article does a disservice because it makes it sound like he really is talking about something trivial. And I don't think he is.


So when the man take care of the lion's share of the wage earning and providing, and when a car breaks down, the plumbing won't work and they can't use the shower or the toilet, the A/C breaks in 100 degree weather, the house needs a roof, and the neighbor down the street is giving the wife trouble about this and that----- if the HUSBAND takes care of all that, is he not "DADDYing" her?

All this about not getting enough respect or appreciation being an excuse to divorce a good man that has no bad intentions and is trying to do the right things as a whole for his family and receiving a nit-picky, entitled, self-centered wife------- all I can say is GOOD RIDDANCE. IT's just a shame that they get half the man's retirement, alimony, the house, , and any number of rewards for their own character problems and bad decisions at the man's expense.

You walkaway wives can pat yourselves on the back all you want, you're still unhappy and that's why you're looking up idiotic articles on how to blame-shift a man so you can not feel so guilty.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> "Guys on TAM b!tch about duty sex", not enough sex, no sex, too much sex, drunk sex, untimely sex, tame sex, wild sex. Let's face it - most guys on here only come on to complain about their sex lives.


True, blondi. No wonder some women withhold sex. It is probably the only way they can get their husband's attention!


----------



## Marduk

EnigmaGirl said:


> I read this article slightly differently.
> 
> I learned a lesson with my last marriage because any little thing that I brought up with my ex husband was turned into a huge fight so I learned to keep my mouth shut. I think a lot of people do this until finally, it piles up to the point where something like a glass by the sink is simply the snowflake that starts the avalanche.
> 
> I know a lot of spouses think they can do things or say things and then after they apologize, it all goes away and resets. But in reality, I think a lot of people (me included) simply never forget anything and then relate each incident to each other and see a pattern of behavior over a long period of time. Once you get to a place where you realize that the pattern isn't going to change and you lose the ability to tolerate it anymore, the marriage is often over. And while it seems its over something trivial its really over a conglomeration of a lot of events and the overall meaning behind them.
> 
> And also, people have tolerance for different things. I fully admit that I cannot live with someone who's messy. If my house isn't clean and organized, it messes with my equilibrium and sense of peace and makes it hard for me to concentrate on more important stuff.
> 
> I have a friend who divorced her husband for a number of reasons but mainly because he didn't have sex with her enough. She just couldn't stand it.
> 
> People often find importance and significance in things others consider trivial. That's why every spouse should spend a lot of time finding out what drives their partner crazy.


Interesting. 

What happens when you are in environments that are disorganized and out of your control?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

EnigmaGirl said:


> I read this article slightly differently.
> 
> I learned a lesson with my last marriage because any little thing that I brought up with my ex husband was turned into a huge fight so I learned to keep my mouth shut. I think a lot of people do this until finally, it piles up to the point where something like a glass by the sink is simply the snowflake that starts the avalanche.
> 
> I know a lot of spouses think they can do things or say things and then after they apologize, it all goes away and resets. But in reality, I think a lot of people (me included) simply never forget anything and then relate each incident to each other and see a pattern of behavior over a long period of time. Once you get to a place where you realize that the pattern isn't going to change and you lose the ability to tolerate it anymore, the marriage is often over. And while it seems its over something trivial its really over a conglomeration of a lot of events and the overall meaning behind them.
> 
> And also, people have tolerance for different things. I fully admit that I cannot live with someone who's messy. If my house isn't clean and organized, it messes with my equilibrium and sense of peace and makes it hard for me to concentrate on more important stuff.
> 
> I have a friend who divorced her husband for a number of reasons but mainly because he didn't have sex with her enough. She just couldn't stand it.
> 
> People often find importance and significance in things others consider trivial. That's why every spouse should spend a lot of time finding out what drives their partner crazy.



As I grow older the stuff that drives me crazy has become trivial at best. Yes, over the 21 years we have come to understand what drives each other nuts. This has helped keeping everything happy all day every day.


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> The bolded is the part of the WAW scenario that drives me more up the wall than the ones that just leave for a flight of fancy.
> 
> If you wait years to leave, when it maximizes your benefit over your partners, this is quite Machiavellian. Sure, you get to keep your stuff and 'oh my goodness, the children!'
> 
> But it comes at a cost. The cost is years of dishonesty. Telling your husband everything is fine, when it isn't. Telling your husband that you love him, when you don't. Letting him plan his life with you when you know it's not true.
> 
> And then, when your conditions are just right, the WAW does what her namesake says -- and walks.
> 
> If you want to leave, leave. But say why. If you want to stay until the kids are older, but no longer want to be married and just want to keep up appearances, say so.
> 
> But there is no excuse for living a life of deception for years simply because it suits your exit strategy.
> 
> That is my problem with the considered WAW scenario. Not that she didn't have good reason to leave. That she didn't act on it accordingly.
> 
> It is little different in my mind than spending those years while in an affair. In both scenarios, you're saying one thing, while doing quite another. And benefiting a lot from the dichotomy.


I agree that a WAS needs to tell their spouse what’s going on. But if you look at the description of the WAW syndrome, the WAW learned a long time ago that talking to her husband does nothing. He does not care what her needs are.

According the description of the WAW Syndrome. The women finally just give up trying to talk about their needs because they know that their husbands do not care about their needs. So they enter a period of time when they stop talking with the intent to learn to live with it. They try to stuff their needs not being met. They do this because they love their spouse and want to stay married to them. They want to make the marriage work and if just accepting the status quo is what is needed then they try that. And then, only after a long time of trying to stuff their needs, do they get to the point of wanting out. They fall out of love. (It’s the empty love bank thing)

There are two different things being talked about on this thread.

The first thing that is being discussed is what is a reasonable thing for which to leave a marriage. It’s not clear that the author of that article is a left behind husband. He knew what upset her. So clearly she was telling him. But he did not care to address it. 

The other thing is WAW/S syndrome.

These are two different topics.

Because of the threads we’ve had here on TAM about WAW/S, I’ve learned something very important and am using it on TAM. When a spouse, man or woman comes to TAM and they are clearly in the WAW/H situation, I talk to them about learning to talk about their needs in a way that is very clear; to assess what they have been asking for to make sure what they want is reasonable (glass by the sink?) and to then talk to their spouse and let their spouse know how serious it is. This is often when I suggest that they read “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters”… to teach them what is reasonable to expect and how to talk about it. Then hopefully the next step is for them to talk to their spouse and work through the books together and actually start meeting each other’s needs.

Sometimes an ultimatum is needed to finally get the attention of their spouse. This has to be done before they lose all love for their spouse.


----------



## OpenWindows

BetrayedDad said:


> For porn star sex, I'd personally make sure every single dish was spotless until the day she died.
> 
> That's a better solution than divorce don't you think? And everyone gets what they want.


I would have happily given porn star sex for clean dishes!!

Unfortunately, my husband felt that porn star sex was his right, and clean dishes were a privilege for me, so no deal. I was supposed to give the porn star sex anyway, and find another way to entice him to clean up his mess.


----------



## wmn1

yah, my wife left a soap bar in the shower this morning and I slipped on it.

Time to divorce.......

This stuff is insane.

People need to wear adult pants and stop the garbage.

If someone is this sensitive, they should never get married.

What has this world come to ?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

The people that I admire are the one's who stay married when their spouse can no longer "do" for them. 

I love when my husband makes time for me. Not when he is my maid or handyman. I can hire that stuff out. I want that heart connection and someone "performing" for me doesn't do that.


----------



## SadSamIAm

FrenchFry said:


> This isn't a WAW scenario and I don't read the article as such
> 
> He knows why she left, even if he doesn't really agree.
> 
> Two incompatible people got married and divorced.
> 
> It sucks but it happens. If he has any self awareness, he'll look for a person who doesn't place organization on a deal breaker level.


I think a WAW is someone who leaves for very little reason. Whether the husband knows about it or not.

I also believe that if there is a big enough reason to leave, it is virtually impossible for the left behind spouse to not be aware of the reason.


----------



## EleGirl

Xenote said:


> look Elle, i'm not superior at all, you and i have gone down this road on other topics we disagree, frankly i don't like you and i am sure you don't like me...and i don't care...


Please do not put words in my mouth. I have never said that I do not like you. Do you know why? Because I do like you. I have no problem with you at all. It's fine with me if and when people disagree with me.

It's even ok with me if someone does not like me. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it.




Xenote said:


> if you read my other post you will see i would be on your side on your first marriage....as for your second marriage you...you married the loser not me..your problem not mine.


When I married my step kids father, there was no way to tell that he was going to do what he did. He has a long history of being a hard working husband and a loving involved father.

And likewise for you, did you really expect your wife to turn out to be someone who withheld sex as your wife does. But as you, say that's your problem. You married her.



Xenote said:


> the disbandment of my marriage in the future will come when we both realize its time to go and not before.


That is of course your right. Just as it is the right of everyone else to decide for themselves if and when they decide to end their marriage.


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> I think in the vast majority of cases, these arguments about things like the dish by the sink or the laundry on the floor are about POWER.
> 
> The reason I say this is because the rules change. Depending on moods. Depending on who is involved.
> 
> My wife can leave a dish full of dishes all day long with no issues when I am not home. Doesn't bother her in the least. She can watch TV for a few hours with the sink full. But that same evening, she will have no problem telling me to put away one glass that was only there for a couple of minutes.
> 
> She can complain about one pair of pants on the floor in the bedroom. But then later in the day I come home and she will have several items of clothing out in the bedroom as she was deciding what to wear.
> 
> Same thing with the bathroom in our bedroom. I will hear about a spot of toothpaste left in my sink (we have two sinks). But the next day, my sink will have several long hairs (definitely hers) in it and her side will be a disaster with makeup and hair straighteners and brushes and whatever else left on the counter.
> 
> It isn't about the dish. It isn't about the laundry. It is about the need to CONTROL.


This is a very good post.

What you describe is not about the glass, or the pants on the floor. You are so right. Your situation does sounds like a power struggle. If there is any way to fix it, it's to address what your wife apparently feels is a power struggle. (I'm not sure if you are involved in that struggle or just the unfortunate guy who is the target of it.)

What the guy in the article describes is really not about the glass by the sink. There was something else going on. The glass (and other such things) is a symbol for something deeper for his wife.

I took that to be about respect I suppose because in my experience it was a lack of respect.


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> I would have hired a maid to get it off both of us if we were both working full time.


Ok.. now what do you do if he says that he is not ok with your spending money on a maid. He is also not ok with a stranger being in the house, cleaning, with access to everything that you two have?

(Not a straw man argument. It's a pretty common point of view.)


----------



## JohnA

So if man were to walk away from a marriage over something you or women consider trivial that would be ok? 

Look, we all know it is not about dishes in the sink, so what is really going on ? 
@jld really ?


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> This is a very good post.
> 
> What you describe is not about the glass, or the pants on the floor. You are so right. Your situation does sounds like a power struggle. If there is any way to fix it, it's to address what your wife apparently feels is a power struggle. (I'm not sure if you are involved in that struggle or just the unfortunate guy who is the target of it.)
> 
> What the guy in the article describes is really not about the glass by the sink. There was something else going on. The glass (and other such things) is a symbol for something deeper for his wife.


I know that and you know that, but the article is written as if the guy doesn't know that. It is written as if the guy truly believes that if he had not left the glass in the sink, his wife wouldn't have left him.


----------



## Blondilocks

Ele, "According the description of the WAW Syndrome. The women finally just give up trying to talk about their needs because they know that their husbands do not care about their needs. So they enter a period of time when they stop talking with the intent to learn to live with it. They try to stuff their needs not being met. They do this because they love their spouse and want to stay married to them. They want to make the marriage work and if just accepting the status quo is what is needed then they try that. And then, only after a long time of trying to stuff their needs, do they get to the point of wanting out. They fall out of love. (It’s the empty love bank thing)

I thought that the author did a fine job of trying to explain what MachoMcCoy is always hinting at:

"If he KNEW that—*if he fully understood this secret she has never explained to him in a way that doesn’t make her sound crazy to him (causing him to dismiss it as an inconsequential passing moment of emo-ness)*, and that this drinking glass situation and all similar arguments will eventually end his marriage, I believe he WOULD rethink which battles he chose to fight, and would be more apt to take action doing things he understands to make his wife feel loved and safe.

I think a lot of times, wives don’t agree with me. They don’t think it’s possible that their husbands don’t know how their actions make her feel because she has told him, sometimes with tears in her eyes, over and over and over and over again how upset it makes her and how much it hurts.

And this is important: Telling a man something that doesn’t make sense to him once, or a million times, doesn’t make him “know” something. Right or wrong, he would never feel hurt if the same situation were reversed so he doesn’t think his wife SHOULD hurt. It’s like, he doesn’t think she has the right to (and then use it as a weapon against him) because it feels unfair.

“I never get upset with you about things you do that I don’t like!” men reason, as if their wives are INTENTIONALLY choosing to feel hurt and miserable.

Maybe it would be a good thing if both women and men truly believed that men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Two different thinking patterns going on so just accept that you won't truly understand and try it their way for awhile. If the man isn't emasculated and the woman isn't growing a beard, then no harm. My husband convinced me that climbing up to a two story roof and adjusting the antennae wouldn't kill me. It didn't the first two times - the third it was him making the trip.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> Ok.. now what do you do if he says that he is not ok with your spending money on a maid. He is also not ok with a stranger being in the house, cleaning, with access to everything that you two have?
> 
> (Not a straw man argument. It's a pretty common point of view.)


Sounds like a great opening to a non passive-aggressive conversation.

"Husband, you can either help pick stuff up around the house or be OK with spending money on a housecleaner. But you don't get to say no to both. So which is it?"


----------



## Marduk

JohnA said:


> So if man were to walk away from a marriage over something you or women consider trivial that would be ok?
> 
> Look, we all know it is not about dishes in the sink, so what is really going on ?
> 
> @jld really ?


Externalized validation and control over anxieties through control over the environment and those in it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> Ok.. now what do you do if he says that he is not ok with your spending money on a maid. He is also not ok with a stranger being in the house, cleaning, with access to everything that you two have?
> 
> (Not a straw man argument. It's a pretty common point of view.)


Someone like that wouldn't control my money. 

She would be brought in anyway.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Someone like that wouldn't control my money.
> 
> She would be brought in anyway.


See how easy it is when you handle things in a grown-up straightforward fashion?

And here's where I'd like to add that I'm still slipping a gear at those who equate such things as being on a level with love or with sex.

Because one can quite easily outsource household chores, and people tend to get happier as a result.

But when someone outsources love or sex, people tend to get all kinds of upset.


----------



## EleGirl

Lloyd Dobler said:


> OK, fair enough - it's disrespect and lack of consideration. So why doesn't it work both ways?
> 
> I'm a lot like the guy in the article, and I understand intellectually what women feel like in situations like that - or at least how my wife feels in situations like that. So why doesn't she give me the same respect and consideration when I ask her to do something? I've got one thing that I've consistently asked her to do - put away the blankets on the couch after she uses them so the dogs don't sleep on them. I don't like the blankets to smell like dog. She cannot or will not put them away and it led to fights between my wife and I. Didn't matter to her when I made the connection between what she asks me to do and what I do, and what I ask her to do and what she doesn't do. It's not important to her, but it still was to me.
> 
> So what did I do? Nothing. I've given up getting steamed about it, because like somebody else said I can't control her and can only control myself. I don't know if that's a gender-related thing or a situation where a husband doesn't want to rock the boat with his wife, but at least for this one guy I've learned the hard way to just move on and not point out that she's being hypocritical. Doesn't make me feel any better about it, but it's not going to chip away at my marriage to the point where I feel like I need to walk away.


This is very common in marriage. Each spouse has their 'thing' that the other just cannot comprehend is a real issue.

That is what the book "Love Busters" talks about. It says that both spouses need to tell the other what their love busters are, and the other has to respect that and not do the love busters. I agree with this. Why? Because those little things are often what kills love.

If my husband told me that he needed me to fold the blankets and put them away because of do hair/smell. I would do it. I was like that long before I read the love buster book. That is how it was in my FOO. People listen to each other and give respect. Such things are so easy to do. 

But it seems that for most people it's not. I guess most people are not raised that way.

I also think that nick picking is ridiculous.

Do hair/smell on a blanket is a health issue. 

A glass by the sink is nothing. (But I still think that the guy in the article is talking about more than a glass by the sink because of other things he said in the article.)

Piles of dirty dishes all over sinks, every counter, under the bed, in the closet (all with moldy food) is a health issue.

People need to be very careful of the hill they chose to die on.


----------



## OpenWindows

It's not the glass, it's not the housework.

It's telling someone over and over that something is really important to you and really affects you... and them telling you it's not important at all, because it's not important to THEM.

It's your own needs continually taking the backseat to the needs of someone else, knowing they won't return the favor.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OpenWindows said:


> It's not the glass, it's not the housework.
> 
> It's telling someone over and over that something is really important to you and really affects you... and them telling you it's not important at all, because it's not important to THEM.
> 
> It's your own needs continually taking the backseat to the needs of someone else, knowing they won't return the favor.


But that person is the one tying their needs to it....


----------



## OpenWindows

Blossom Leigh said:


> But that person is the one tying their needs to it....


Maybe I'm just not understanding you...

But if they didn't tie the need for cleanliness and respect to that glass, they would still have the need. It would just manifest differently, and still be written off as "wrong" and unimportant.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> It's not the glass, it's not the housework.
> 
> It's telling someone over and over that something is really important to you and really affects you... and them telling you it's not important at all, because it's not important to THEM.
> 
> It's your own needs continually taking the backseat to the needs of someone else, knowing they won't return the favor.


Here's where I struggle.

Because while that all sounds very reasonable and sensitive, it actually can be totally the opposite of that.

Because I could very well say that I agree with you, and in that the following statement is valid:

"Wife, it's very important for me that you never age, you breasts never sag, and every day when I get home from work I find you on your knees in new lingerie ready to give me the most mind-blowing BJ of my life. I place a lot of value and significance on this, and the fact that you almost never do it shows me that my needs take a backseat to yours, and even though I try very hard to make you happy, you do very little in return."

You can assign meaning and significance to anything you want in life. And you may find that totally valid.

And for every person who finds that valid, you'll find many others that will think it is mind-blisteringly insane and totally unreasonable.

Do you love each other?

If the answer is no, you got a problem.

Are you both working hard to make each other happy in ways you both agree are reasonable?

If the answer is no, you got a problem.

Now, people's definitions of reasonableness are very different. I just really, really struggle with anything in there that even approaches glasses and sinks in any level of reality.

Materialism has well and truly won the day.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OpenWindows said:


> Maybe I'm just not understanding you...
> 
> But if they didn't tie the need for cleanliness and respect to that glass, they would still have the need. It would just manifest differently, and still be written off as "wrong" and unimportant.



People choose what they get upset about...


----------



## Blondilocks

marduk said:


> Externalized validation and control over anxieties through control over the environment and those in it.



Every one wants control over their home environment. It's the only place where you will get it unless you own your own business and that is rife with regulations. 

It's not necessarily 'externalized'. Some people just don't feel comfortable unless their home looks like the image of how it should look in their mind's eye. Kids and dogs tracking mud through the house - for some it's no problem and for others it's a meltdown.


----------



## Marduk

Blondilocks said:


> Every one wants control over their home environment. It's the only place where you will get it unless you own your own business and that is rife with regulations.
> 
> It's not necessarily 'externalized'. Some people just don't feel comfortable unless their home looks like the image of how it should look in their mind's eye. Kids and dogs tracking mud through the house - for some it's no problem and for others it's a meltdown.


Hmm.

I don't control my home environment. 

It's an environment lived in by several human beings and mammals, of which I am only one.

I have some influence over it, that's all.


----------



## SadSamIAm

FrenchFry said:


> I struggle with the qualification "very little reason."


Me too. It is very subjective. 

It gets deeper, as I also think it has to do with 'what did you do to fix the problem'. You might have what you believe to be a valid reason why you are unhappy and you have told your spouse. 

So does that mean it is OK to leave? 

I still think that you have an obligation to try to fix the issue. Go to counseling, compromise, give it time, etc. etc. etc.


----------



## VirgenTecate

marduk said:


> Here's where I struggle.
> 
> Because while that all sounds very reasonable and sensitive, it actually can be totally the opposite of that.
> 
> Because I could very well say that I agree with you, and in that the following statement is valid:
> 
> "Wife, it's very important for me that you never age, you breasts never sag, and every day when I get home from work I find you on your knees in new lingerie ready to give me the most mind-blowing BJ of my life. I place a lot of value and significance on this, and the fact that you almost never do it shows me that my needs take a backseat to yours, and even though I try very hard to make you happy, you do very little in return."
> 
> You can assign meaning and significance to anything you want in life. And you may find that totally valid.
> 
> And for every person who finds that valid, you'll find many others that will think it is mind-blisteringly insane and totally unreasonable.
> 
> Do you love each other?
> 
> If the answer is no, you got a problem.
> 
> Are you both working hard to make each other happy in ways you both agree are reasonable?
> 
> If the answer is no, you got a problem.
> 
> Now, people's definitions of reasonableness are very different. I just really, really struggle with anything in there that even approaches glasses and sinks in any level of reality.
> 
> Materialism has well and truly won the day.


Marduk, I just want to start off with that I have agreed with every post you have written. 

I think this revs up a lot of women because it is a larger societal issue. Women still take the brunt of housework even if they are working the same amount of hours as men. The assumption that a woman will do the maid activities for me was a bit of a love buster at first honestly. This article is teasing out that larger societal ill will women have to having that burden placed on them even if they are a bread winner.

More extreme, but my extended family comes from a rural place in Italy. My aunt and uncle are progressive and modern and live in Milan. He is unemployed and stays at home with the kid. She is employed full time. When she comes home, she does all the cooking, cleaning and child care. She told me she wishes it was different but no matter how many times she has tried to get him to contribute more, he reverts to not doing anything because he grew up that way. 

However, at the personal level and in one's relationship, your advice is golden. Cleanliness is the first thing for me to go out the window even for "non-essential" activities such as cuddling. THAT contributes to my happiness more than tying it to a cup.


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> Here's where I struggle.
> 
> Because while that all sounds very reasonable and sensitive, it actually can be totally the opposite of that.
> 
> Because I could very well say that I agree with you, and in that the following statement is valid:
> 
> "Wife, it's very important for me that you never age, you breasts never sag, and every day when I get home from work I find you on your knees in new lingerie ready to give me the most mind-blowing BJ of my life. I place a lot of value and significance on this, and the fact that you almost never do it shows me that my needs take a backseat to yours, and even though I try very hard to make you happy, you do very little in return."
> 
> You can assign meaning and significance to anything you want in life. And you may find that totally valid.
> 
> And for every person who finds that valid, you'll find many others that will think it is mind-blisteringly insane and totally unreasonable.
> 
> Do you love each other?
> 
> If the answer is no, you got a problem.
> 
> Are you both working hard to make each other happy in ways you both agree are reasonable?
> 
> If the answer is no, you got a problem.
> 
> Now, people's definitions of reasonableness are very different. I just really, really struggle with anything in there that even approaches glasses and sinks in any level of reality.
> 
> Materialism has well and truly won the day.


If a man needed that from me, and I couldn't give it to him, then he should leave, even if i think that need is unreasonable. I can't change what he wants.

The real question is "Are you both working hard to make each other happy, in ways you both agree are reasonable?". That is a very important question. The author of the original article says he wasn't doing that. He wasn't trying to make her happy in a way they agreed on, he was stubbornly insisting that she just be fine with what he wanted to offer.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> Hmm.
> 
> I don't control my home environment.
> 
> It's an environment lived in by several human beings and mammals, of which I am only one.
> 
> I have some influence over it, that's all.


Correct... the only time I "take control" inside my house is when the danger of abuse has shown up of which I include infidelity. Those you cannot hire out. The rest can be hired.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> If a man needed that from me, and I couldn't give it to him, then he should leave, even if i think that need is unreasonable. I can't change what he wants.
> 
> The real question is "Are you both working hard to make each other happy, in ways you both agree are reasonable?". That is a very important question. The author of the original article says he wasn't doing that. He wasn't trying to make her happy in a way they agreed on, he was stubbornly insisting that she just be fine with what he wanted to offer.


The fact that you see no irony in that statement astounds me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VirgenTecate

OpenWindows said:


> The real question is "Are you both working hard to make each other happy, in ways you both agree are reasonable?". That is a very important question. The author of the original article says he wasn't doing that. He wasn't trying to make her happy in a way they agreed on, he was stubbornly insisting that she just be fine with what he wanted to offer.


 I think this is very key. 

I always found MarriageBuilders way of deciding how to move forward by checking in with both husband and wife first before implementing a behavior was optimal. He even has a part on "unreasonable demands" such as Marduk's don't age example.

It's a hard thing to figure out.


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> The fact that you see no irony in that statement astounds me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just so we're clear, I'm not saying he has to do it her way. I'm saying they didn't agree on anything, they weren't actually working together.


----------



## Popcorn2015

Bull crap.

If Matt Damon or Tom Brady left their dishes by the sink, this woman would have washed them gladly. She left the blog poster because she was no longer attracted to him, and it had nothing to do with dishes.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> Interesting.
> 
> What happens when you are in environments that are disorganized and out of your control?


I was actually talking about my own home (and office).

I would say I got more stressed out than usual when I used to come home when I was married to my ex and the house was trashed. I have a period when I get in the door from work when I need to decompress and have some down time and its impossible for me to do when I don't have a clean, organized space to do it in. So I used to come home, drop my bag and immediately start cleaning a house that was clean when I left. My ex husband believed that he didn't have to tidy up after himself or the kids at all.

I don't have that problem anymore, I divorced my ex and although my new husband doesn't really clean the house, he's meticulous about tidying up after himself when I clean which is all I need. I actually really enjoy cleaning the house...its relaxing...I just hate when someone trashes whatever I just cleaned up.

I didn't divorce my ex because he was messy but it definitely contributed because I would fantasize daily about not having him invading my space and not having to clean up after him anymore.

I don't know anyone with a really messy house but if I did, I probably wouldn't visit them and would invite them over to my place instead.


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> Wonder what Elle would tell her husband if he told her to wear matching ones every day?
> 
> I am guessing he would be told to not try to control her. As she should.


Well.... I've never left a husband over a glass left by the sink. I have also never made a big deal out of something that trivial. I'm also not justifying leaving a marriage because your spouse left a glass by the sink. 

Perhaps that is why, when I read the below line in the article, I read it as he was admitting that there was a lot more than a glass left by the sink. I read it as the author saying that he was basically not taking responsibility for a lot of things that he should have been taking responsivity for. I think that each of us has read that article through lenses of our own experiences.

“But I remember my wife often saying how exhausting it was for her to have to tell me what to do all the time. It’s why the sexiest thing a man can say to his partner is *“I got this,” and then take care of whatever needs taken care of.”*

“*The wife doesn’t want to divorce her husband because he leaves used drinking glasses by the sink.

She wants to divorce him because she feels like he doesn’t respect or appreciate her, which suggests he doesn’t love her, and she can’t count on him to be her lifelong partner.* She can’t trust him. She can’t be safe with him. Thus, she must leave and find a new situation in which she can feel content and secure.”


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> I think this revs up a lot of women because it is a larger societal issue. Women still take the brunt of housework even if they are working the same amount of hours as men. The assumption that a woman will do the maid activities for me was a bit of a love buster at first honestly. This article is teasing out that larger societal ill will women have to having that burden placed on them even if they are a bread winner.


I can't say that being largely responsible for the housework ever bothered me. I'm good at it, my husband isn't. He does a lot of stuff that I'm not as good at.

Personally, where I felt disrespected is when my ex would literally trash the room I just finished cleaning....usually the kitchen.

I'll never forget this one morning, I cleaned the kitchen on my way out to work in the morning and set spaghetti sauce with meatballs on the slow cooker because I had a late mtg that day. I got home and there was a meatball right in the middle of the floor with sauce splattered all around it. I asked my ex if he saw it and his response was "yea, but one of the kids did it."

That was a pretty typical story. And every woman that I've ever told it to totally gets why I got divorced without me having to say anything else...lol.


----------



## Marduk

Popcorn2015 said:


> Bull crap.
> 
> If Matt Damon or Tom Brady left their dishes by the sink, this woman would have washed them gladly. She left the blog poster because she was no longer attracted to him, and it had nothing to do with dishes.


Ya, I bet Victoria's Secret lingerie models spend a lot of their life complaining about toilet seats left up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> Ya, I bet Victoria's Secret lingerie models spend a lot of their life complaining about toilet seats left up.


I also doubt they clean their own homes.


----------



## Marduk

EnigmaGirl said:


> I also doubt they clean their own homes.


_Exactly_.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jsmart

@Popcorn2015 , That's what it comes down to. The wife no longer found husband attractive because he let himself go and became complacent. If he would have stayed on top of his game, went out with friends, flirting with woman, occasionally having one night stands and other wise being an @sshole. These women we be sweating these men. 

Treat them like [email protected] and they love & sex you up. Let your guard down and become a needy beta, you'll face being cleaned out in a frivorce by our "family" courts, that hand out cash and prizes for destroying a family.

Also the whole helping with the chores has been debunked. There was a study that found that husbands that did most of the chores were rewarded with less sex than men who didn't help at all. So what's the take away there? Become a kitchen B!tch and the wife will reward your effort with a sexless marriage. 

I know, I know, you need romance. Your husband has to continually pursue and woo you. If you're not feeling thrills similar to a new romance, it means you should divorce. Who cares about the kids growing up in a broken home. All that matters is that the wife be continually entertained. How does that vow go? For better or worse or until I'm bored.


----------



## OpenWindows

Personal said:


> I understand that when I get angry about him leaving the glass there, it hurts him— literally causes him pain—because it feels to him like I just said: “Hey. I don’t respect you or value your thoughts and opinions. Not taking four seconds to put my glass in the dishwasher is more important to me than you are.”


I'm sure some men feel that way, but I didn't think that was what the author was saying. It sounded like he wished he'd put the glass away, and that in hindsight, he didn't know why it was so important to him to stand his ground.


----------



## frusdil

I can see both sides of this...I totally get that it's not about the glass by the sink. I also think that a lot of women could help the situation by telling their husbands "When you leave glasses by the sink I feel disrespected and it really hurts". In a lot of cases, he would think "whoa, I didn't know that..." and put the glasses in the dishwasher. When she just goes off her narna about the #&#*%@ glass by the sink, he thinks "It's only a friggin' glass" and I agree with him! Of course, there'll always be those men (and women) who are just clueless boofheads, who'll never get it no matter what you say.

My husband isn't one who leaves the toilet seat up - and honestly, if he did who cares, just put it down! He does leave dishes by the sink, which irritates me sometimes but I just put them in the dishwasher (after sometimes saying "why are these on the sink? ffs" hehe), he sits on the bed after I've made it, and sometimes leaves a beer bottle or two on the coffee table. He also mops the floors for me, after working all day (I stay at home) because I have a bad back, brings me chocolate and my warm wheat bag when I have cramps, and makes dinner if I'm sick. It goes both ways.


----------



## Ms. GP

ButtPunch said:


> I agree with Marduk that the husbands values and his wifes values are different.
> 
> I learned quickly in my marriage that my wife doesn't have near the energy I do.
> 
> I am a drawer organizer as well. I had to accept my wife for who she was or I
> would need to get a divorce. My wife is no clean freak and I can't MAKE her one.
> 
> Neither could the woman in this article. She had every right to walk away and I
> think she probably did the poor fellow a favor.


You don't strike me as a drawer organizer. You strike me as a dirty dish leaving, underwear on the floor, can't cook type of guy. But I could be wrong. Acceptance works both ways.


----------



## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> Ok.. now what do you do if he says that he is not ok with your spending money on a maid. He is also not ok with a stranger being in the house, cleaning, with access to everything that you two have?
> 
> (Not a straw man argument. It's a pretty common point of view.)
> 
> 
> 
> marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a great opening to a non passive-aggressive conversation.
> 
> "Husband, you can either help pick stuff up around the house or be OK with spending money on a housecleaner. But you don't get to say no to both. So which is it?"
Click to expand...

Oh if only is was that easy.

I actually had this happen with my son’s father. I told him that since he refused to do housework, was hiring a maid.

He said nope I do not agree with spending money that way and I do not want people I don’t know in my house going through my stuff. I told him that they were not going through his stuff, they were cleaning. He said NO!

So I told him basically "Husband, you can either help pick stuff up around the house or be OK with spending money on a housecleaner. But you don't get to say no to both. So which is it?"

His reply was no housecleaner. And no, he does not do housework.

I hired the housecleaner. And for our entire marriage he used it to beat up on my verbally for spending money on something as frivolously as a house keeper and on having a ‘stranger’ in our house.

It is an aggressive act to hire household help when the other spouse does not agree. And it leads to serious martial problems.

My point is that things it is often not as easy as ‘well just hire someone to clean the house’ as was suggested. Sometimes the non-cleaning spouse will make your life hell for doing it. And a lot of people do not have the disposable income to hire some. Hiring household help is not a universal fix for a marriage in which one spouse refuses to take responsibility for a fair share of chores.

But it was presented as the mature way to handle it. So what is the mature way for a person to handle the situation when hiring help is not an available solution?


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> Oh if only is was that easy.
> 
> I actually had this happen with my son’s father. I told him that since he refused to do housework, was hiring a maid.
> 
> He said nope I do not agree with spending money that way and I do not want people I don’t know in my house going through my stuff. I told him that they were not going through his stuff, they were cleaning. He said NO!
> 
> So I told him basically "Husband, you can either help pick stuff up around the house or be OK with spending money on a housecleaner. But you don't get to say no to both. So which is it?"
> 
> His reply was no housecleaner. And no, he does not do housework.
> 
> I hired the housecleaner. And for our entire marriage he used it to beat up on my verbally for spending money on something as frivolously as a house keeper and on having a ‘stranger’ in our house.
> 
> It is an aggressive act to hire household help when the other spouse does not agree. And it leads to serious martial problems.
> 
> My point is that things it is often not as easy as ‘well just hire someone to clean the house’ as was suggested. Sometimes the non-cleaning spouse will make your life hell for doing it. And a lot of people do not have the disposable income to hire some. Hiring household help is not a universal fix for a marriage in which one spouse refuses to take responsibility for a fair share of chores.
> 
> But it was presented as the mature way to handle it. So what is the mature way for a person to handle the situation when hiring help is not an available solution?


I can see this happening. And at that point, I believe you would be justified in leaving.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> Oh if only is was that easy.
> 
> I actually had this happen with my son’s father. I told him that since he refused to do housework, was hiring a maid.
> 
> He said nope I do not agree with spending money that way and I do not want people I don’t know in my house going through my stuff. I told him that they were not going through his stuff, they were cleaning. He said NO!
> 
> So I told him basically "Husband, you can either help pick stuff up around the house or be OK with spending money on a housecleaner. But you don't get to say no to both. So which is it?"
> 
> His reply was no housecleaner. And no, he does not do housework.
> 
> I hired the housecleaner. And for our entire marriage he used it to beat up on my verbally for spending money on something as frivolously as a house keeper and on having a ‘stranger’ in our house.
> 
> It is an aggressive act to hire household help when the other spouse does not agree. And it leads to serious martial problems.
> 
> My point is that things it is often not as easy as ‘well just hire someone to clean the house’ as was suggested. Sometimes the non-cleaning spouse will make your life hell for doing it. And a lot of people do not have the disposable income to hire some. Hiring household help is not a universal fix for a marriage in which one spouse refuses to take responsibility for a fair share of chores.
> 
> But it was presented as the mature way to handle it. So what is the mature way for a person to handle the situation when hiring help is not an available solution?



Your husband was the aggressor, not you. He was an abuser, which crosses out of frivolous, which is what people are discussing here and into an alternative realm of treatment of the situation. So, therefore since we have crossed over into that realm, here is how I handled abuse when my husband chose to make my life a living hell. 

1. Put him out of the house

2. Remained separated until he complied with treatment for his abusive ways

3. Maintained a tight timeframe under which such compliance was to happen.


It did not serve my husband nor our child to leave him in the condition he was in, therefore I chose emotional leverage to affect his choices and asked him to choose better. I also named every abusive behavior that was present. I gave myself voice AND my son voice. It worked. My H chose to embrace the challenge.


----------



## SongoftheSouth

BlueWoman said:


> I am sure I will get flamed for this, but OMG, Yes! This exactly.
> 
> She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink | Must Be This Tall To Ride


Utter nonsense and complete crap. Kiss my southern a$$:smile2:


----------



## EleGirl

EnigmaGirl said:


> I think this revs up a lot of women because it is a larger societal issue. Women still take the brunt of housework even if they are working the same amount of hours as men. The assumption that a woman will do the maid activities for me was a bit of a love buster at first honestly. This article is teasing out that larger societal ill will women have to having that burden placed on them even if they are a bread winner.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say that being largely responsible for the housework ever bothered me. I'm good at it, my husband isn't. He does a lot of stuff that I'm not as good at.
> 
> Personally, where I felt disrespected is when my ex would literally trash the room I just finished cleaning....usually the kitchen.
> 
> I'll never forget this one morning, I cleaned the kitchen on my way out to work in the morning and set spaghetti sauce with meatballs on the slow cooker because I had a late mtg that day. I got home and there was a meatball right in the middle of the floor with sauce splattered all around it. I asked my ex if he saw it and his response was "yea, but one of the kids did it."
> 
> That was a pretty typical story. And every woman that I've ever told it to totally gets why I got divorced without me having to say anything else...lol.
Click to expand...

I think that for different people this topic manifest diffidently. We all have different lives.

For example, with my step kid’s father. His refusal to do anything in the house was one of the major reasons I divorced him. And it’s not because I’m a clean freak. I has to do with respect and being a partner and exhaustion.

He was not working (of years) because of things on my job I often worked very long hours. I would ask him so many times.. could you please clean the kitchen and cook dinner. I will be working home late tonight.

I would come home at 9 or 10 pm after 14 to 16 hour day. I had no choice. The company would not hire any more people. When we complained, we were told that we were lucky to have a job. Everyone I know in the engineering field works at least 60 hours a week. 

The kitchen was piled high with dirty dishes, table was the same. No dinner. So then I had to clean the dishes, thaw out food and cook. Either that or the kids just ate whatever they could find. 

So then I started to use the crock pot because I knew that he would never, ever, help in any way. So then I’d come home late, so the kids had a hot meal from the crock pot. Of course my husband also happily had a hot meal. I then had to clean the dishes and any mess in the kitchen so that I could get to things to prepare the crock pot meal for the next day.

While it is great that you have no problem with doing house work, and in your situation it makes sense, a lot of people have very different circumstances. And when their spouse will not come through it is clear that their spouse sees them as the maid, has no respect for them and could care less about them.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> Oh if only is was that easy.
> 
> I actually had this happen with my son’s father. I told him that since he refused to do housework, was hiring a maid.
> 
> He said nope I do not agree with spending money that way and I do not want people I don’t know in my house going through my stuff. I told him that they were not going through his stuff, they were cleaning. He said NO!
> 
> So I told him basically "Husband, you can either help pick stuff up around the house or be OK with spending money on a housecleaner. But you don't get to say no to both. So which is it?"
> 
> His reply was no housecleaner. And no, he does not do housework.
> 
> I hired the housecleaner. And for our entire marriage he used it to beat up on my verbally for spending money on something as frivolously as a house keeper and on having a ‘stranger’ in our house.
> 
> It is an aggressive act to hire household help when the other spouse does not agree. And it leads to serious martial problems.
> 
> My point is that things it is often not as easy as ‘well just hire someone to clean the house’ as was suggested. Sometimes the non-cleaning spouse will make your life hell for doing it. And a lot of people do not have the disposable income to hire some. Hiring household help is not a universal fix for a marriage in which one spouse refuses to take responsibility for a fair share of chores.
> 
> But it was presented as the mature way to handle it. So what is the mature way for a person to handle the situation when hiring help is not an available solution?


I'll ask you: were you expecting an objectively reasonable level of cleanliness, or were you expecting to have things done your way to make you feel comfortable?

It sounds to me like he was being unreasonable. Was he?

It also sounds to me like you put an awful lot of value on organization. Do you?


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Your husband was the aggressor, not you. He was an abuser, which crosses out of frivolous, which is what people are discussion and into an alternative realm of treatment of the situation. So, thetefote, since we have crossed over into that realm, here is how I handled abuse when my husband chose to make my life a living hell.
> 
> 1. Put him out of the house
> 
> 2. Remained separated until he complied with treatment for his abusive ways
> 
> 3. Maintained a tight timeframe under which such compliance was to happen.
> 
> 
> It did not serve my husband nor our child to leave him in the condition he was in, therefore I chose emotional leverage to affect his choices and asked him to choose better. I also named every abusive behavior that was present. I gave myself voice AND my son voice. It worked. My H chose to embrace the challenge.


I tried that. He got the courts involved. They told me I could leave but I had to leave our son with him.

A person cannot legally throw their spouse out of the house. It just does not work that way. Sure they can ask them to leave. They can scream at them to leave. But the spouse does not have to leave.


----------



## VirgenTecate

I really think that we project our own experiences on to this story and that doesn't mean our different conclusions are incorrect.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> From the article:
> 
> _"She wants to divorce him because she feels like he doesn’t respect or appreciate her, which suggests he doesn’t love her, and she can’t count on him to be her lifelong partner. She can’t trust him. She can’t be safe with him. Thus, she must leave and find a new situation in which she can feel content and secure."_
> 
> I wish more men understood this. It is the small things that pile up over time that often break a marriage, the small things that leave her feeling alone. And finally she decides that if she feels alone, she might as well be alone. Then she won't have to worry about that glass anymore.
> 
> Great thread, BW.


Anyone who puts that much emphasis on such minor things in life is probably best to stay alone.


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> I'll ask you: were you expecting an objectively reasonable level of cleanliness, or were you expecting to have things done your way to make you feel comfortable?


No I was not expecting to have things done my way or expecting anything unreasonable level of cleanliness. 
One example was HE wanted the bathroom cleaned once a week.. Toilet, sink, floor clean. I said good. We can take turns every other week. His response was verbatim “I DO NOT DO TOILETS.”


marduk said:


> It sounds to me like he was being unreasonable. Was he?


Yes he was being unreasonable.
He wanted the kitchen spotless at all times. Well he wanted everything spotless at all time. He wanted everything in its place at all times. If our son left a toy out he should have a major melt down. 

If I cleaned the kitchen, I should have cleaned the bedroom. And so on. He was profoundly unreasonable. I’m actually very lax about housework.

But wanted ME to do it, not himself and not a housecleaner.


marduk said:


> It also sounds to me like you put an awful lot of value on organization. Do you?


You are making assumptions. I am talking about a problem in 2 marriages that had to do with house cleaning. You assume it was because I was unreasonable. Why that assumption instead of the assumption that I have/had valid concerns?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> I tried that. He got the courts involved. They told me I could leave but I had to leave our son with him.
> 
> A person cannot legally throw their spouse out of the house. It just does not work that way. Sure they can ask them to leave. They can scream at them to leave. But the spouse does not have to leave.



I didn't have to scream. He knew I was right.

If he had not left on his own I would have headed for legal separation.


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> You don't strike me as a drawer organizer. You strike me as a dirty dish leaving, underwear on the floor, can't cook type of guy. But I could be wrong. Acceptance works both ways.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> No I was not expecting to have things done my way or expecting anything unreasonable level of cleanliness.
> One example was HE wanted the bathroom cleaned once a week.. Toilet, sink, floor clean. I said good. We can take turns every other week. His response was verbatim “I DO NOT DO TOILETS.”
> 
> Yes he was being unreasonable.
> He wanted the kitchen spotless at all times. Well he wanted everything spotless at all time. He wanted everything in its place at all times. If our son left a toy out he should have a major melt down.
> 
> If I cleaned the kitchen, I should have cleaned the bedroom. And so on. He was profoundly unreasonable. I’m actually very lax about housework.
> 
> But wanted ME to do it, not himself and not a housecleaner.


Exactly. He had an unreasonable expectation of you. He was delusional.

And the solution to his unreasonable expectation wasn't to try to join him in his delusion, it was to exit it.

Just like the lady in this article had an unreasonable expectation to associate a glass with love, even when he wasn't finished using it.

And the solution wasn't to play into her delusion so that she felt loved.



> You are making assumptions. I am talking about a problem in 2 marriages that had to do with house cleaning. You assume it was because I was unreasonable. Why that assumption instead of the assumption that I have/had valid concerns?


It seems that you value organization. It seems that you have difficulty relaxing in a disorganized environment. I base that upon what you said about your feelings about your home and office environment.

I was asking if that played into this for you, or amplified it perhaps?


----------



## Ms. GP

Mabye the author has rewritten the marital history just a bit.


----------



## Marduk

Ms. GP said:


> Mabye the author has rewritten the marital history just a bit.


When I read it, my first thought was that the author was desperate to get laid.

Desperate enough to wish he'd kept his crazy ex wife happy.


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> I didn't have to scream. He knew I was right.
> 
> If he had not left on his own I would have headed for legal separation.


And did you read my post.. I did that. I filed. And the judge told me that if I wanted to I could leave and gave him 100% custody of our son if I left without even finding out what the situation really was. The judge spent no more than 5 minutes with us.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> And did you read my post.. I did that. I filed. And the judge told me that if I wanted to I could leave and gave him 100% custody of our son if I left without even finding out what the situation really was. The judge spent no more than 5 minutes with us.


File for divorce. We are beyond the scope of this thread.

Yes, I read it.

I also actively worked boundaries and no codependency techniques. When he came back we weren't done working on it. There are mature ways to address these things. I did it. It worked.


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> File for divorce. We are beyond the scope of this thread


You said that you would start filing legal separation papers. I don't see much of a difference. Both are legal actions against a spouse. Few marriage survive a legal separation.



Blossom Leigh said:


> Yes, I read it.
> 
> I also actively worked boundaries and no codependency techniques. When he came back we weren't done working on it. There are mature ways to address these things. I did it. It worked.


Ok, so you are saying that I'm not mature like you. I get it.

It is nice that it worked for you. It does not work in every case. That is my point. If you want to ignore that fact that it does not work in every case, that's on you.


----------



## Ms. GP

marduk said:


> When I read it, my first thought was that the author was desperate to get laid.
> 
> Desperate enough to wish he'd kept his crazy ex wife happy.


That's funny. My first thought was mabye he's a disgusting slob/ man child who's trying to portray himself as , "not that bad" to garner sympathy from from female readers and ultimately get laid from some unsuspecting woman.

I guess we can both agree one thing! Lol 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> Exactly. He had an unreasonable expectation of you. He was delusional.
> 
> And the solution to his unreasonable expectation wasn't to try to join him in his delusion, it was to exit it.
> 
> Just like the lady in this article had an unreasonable expectation to associate a glass with love, even when he wasn't finished using it.
> 
> And the solution wasn't to play into her delusion so that she felt loved.


I know for a fact that when my ex (son's father) tell people about why I left him, he puts it in a way that makes it sound like I had unreasonable expectations. He also paints himself as being a wonderful, loving husband. (I've hear him say all this nonsense.)



marduk said:


> It seems that you value organization. It seems that you have difficulty relaxing in a disorganized environment. I base that upon what you said about your feelings about your home and office environment.
> 
> I was asking if that played into this for you, or amplified it perhaps?


I did not say anywhere that I "have difficulty relaxing in a disorganized environment." EnigmaGirl said that.

So no, her issues did not play into or amplify my issues.

I don't know why you think I had realistic expectations. Rather baffles me.


----------



## EleGirl

Ms. GP said:


> That's funny. My first thought was mabye he's a disgusting slob/ man child who's trying to portray himself as , "not that bad" to garner sympathy from from female readers and ultimately get laid from some unsuspecting woman.
> 
> I guess we can both agree one thing! Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


lol ... same thoughts here.


----------



## EleGirl

VirgenTecate said:


> I really think that we project our own experiences on to this story and that doesn't mean our different conclusions are incorrect.


I think that this is the bottom line on this thread. As is usual, we all read an article like that and filter it through our own experiences. Which is why I have been posting what I have... to give an alternative perspective to the "it's just a stupid glass" filter.


----------



## lifeistooshort

jsmart said:


> @Popcorn2015 , That's what it comes down to. The wife no longer found husband attractive because he let himself go and became complacent. If he would have stayed on top of his game, went out with friends, flirting with woman, occasionally having one night stands and other wise being an @sshole. These women we be sweating these men.
> 
> Treat them like [email protected] and they love & sex you up. Let your guard down and become a needy beta, you'll face being cleaned out in a frivorce by our "family" courts, that hand out cash and prizes for destroying a family.
> 
> Also the whole helping with the chores has been debunked. There was a study that found that husbands that did most of the chores were rewarded with less sex than men who didn't help at all. So what's the take away there? Become a kitchen B!tch and the wife will reward your effort with a sexless marriage.
> 
> I know, I know, you need romance. Your husband has to continually pursue and woo you. If you're not feeling thrills similar to a new romance, it means you should divorce. Who cares about the kids growing up in a broken home. All that matters is that the wife be continually entertained. How does that vow go? For better or worse or until I'm bored.



My hb made dinner and washed dishes tonight, and I'm planning to jump him when we go to bed. 

Surely there must be a happy medium between needy beta and cheating pr!ck?

Maybe in your case the problem is you. It wouldn't be solved by forcing your wife to stay married. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> You said that you would start filing legal separation papers. I don't see much of a difference. Both are legal actions against a spouse. Few marriage survive a legal separation.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so you are saying that I'm not mature like you. I get it.
> 
> It is nice that it worked for you. It does not work in every case. That is my point. If you want to ignore that fact that it does not work in every case, that's on you.


Yes... the situation would be addressed. Period. One way or another. I will not tolerate abuse in my home. Now you can make of that what you will since you seem to be zeroing in on my declaration of such, but I in no way implied that you were immature in handling your situation, instead I was commenting on YOUR comment that my approach was referred to as "mature". Yes, it worked in my case because my husband became willing. I do not ignore the fact that it will not work with an unwilling husband. You had an unwilling husband, which is why it did not work. I would have kicked him to the curb just like you. I gave mine ONE shot to change. He took me up on it. I am sharing an alternative approach that worked for us. I have not said once that it would work in all cases. I was being asked what *I* would do next. So I answered what I would do next. That in no way extrapolated to mean any of what you applied to my answers.


----------



## MattMatt

EleGirl said:


> From the article:
> 
> 
> There is only ONE reason I will ever stop leaving that glass by the sink. A lesson I learned much too late: Because I love and respect my partner, and it REALLY matters to her. I understand that when I leave that glass there, it hurts her— literally causes her pain—because it feels to her like I just said: “Hey. I don’t respect you or value your thoughts and opinions. Not taking four seconds to put my glass in the dishwasher is more important to me than you are.”
> 
> There something that he still does not get.
> 
> Leaving his glass by the sink is also telling her that she's the maid and/or his mother. That it's her job to do the stuff that he could not be bothered with. It's telling her that as his maid/mother she can put the stupid glass in the dishwasher. It's a huge show of disrespect.
> 
> When she has to tell him what to do, again it reduces her to the maid/mother. She is his wife. She wants to be his wife, not his mother or maid.
> 
> He goes on about the fact that men need to be respected by their wives. Well, women need to be respected by their husband just as much. Respect is not only the domain of men.
> 
> And of course she did not divorce him only because he left a glass by the sink. There were thousands of other small disrespects through the years. The glass is used symbolically by the author of the article.


Actually he wanted the glass there so he could get another drink without having to get a second glass out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> I know for a fact that when my ex (son's father) tell people about why I left him, he puts it in a way that makes it sound like I had unreasonable expectations. He also paints himself as being a wonderful, loving husband. (I've hear him say all this nonsense.)
> 
> 
> 
> I did not say anywhere that I "have difficulty relaxing in a disorganized environment." EnigmaGirl said that.
> 
> So no, her issues did not play into or amplify my issues.
> 
> I don't know why you think I had realistic expectations. Rather baffles me.


Omg, sorry for mixing them up!

You don't know why I think you had realistic expectations?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> He was not working (of years) because of things on my job I often worked very long hours. I would ask him so many times.. could you please clean the kitchen and cook dinner. I will be working home late tonight.
> 
> I would come home at 9 or 10 pm after 14 to 16 hour day. I had no choice. The company would not hire any more people. When we complained, we were told that we were lucky to have a job. Everyone I know in the engineering field works at least 60 hours a week.
> 
> The kitchen was piled high with dirty dishes, table was the same. No dinner. So then I had to clean the dishes, thaw out food and cook. Either that or the kids just ate whatever they could find.
> 
> So then I started to use the crock pot because I knew that he would never, ever, help in any way. So then I’d come home late, so the kids had a hot meal from the crock pot. Of course my husband also happily had a hot meal. I then had to clean the dishes and any mess in the kitchen so that I could get to things to prepare the crock pot meal for the next day.


Don't get me wrong. I totally understand any working woman's request for equal help around the house but in my last marriage, that would have been pointless and doing the brunt of the housework was just never an issue for me personally because I like it done my way. But I totally get women asking for help or hiring help when they work full-time.

I can tell you that at the beginning of my first marriage, I did ask for help a couple times and it was a total train wreck and I soon figured out that it was easier to just do it myself anyway. 

One time, I asked my ex to clean the large upstairs bathroom in our first house. Seems pretty routine right? 

I came home from the grocery store over an hour and a half later and walked upstairs. No lie, my ex was standing in the middle of the bathroom in his boxer shorts soaking wet along with everything else in the bathroom. There were a bunch of sopping wet towels in the bathtub. Everything was covered with water and suds. 

Evidently his story was that he used dish soap (yea, dish soap) to try to clean and put a layer of the stuff on everything and then couldn't figure out how to rinse it off so he disrobed and started rubbing everything with wet bathtowels.

It took me ages to clean up the mess.

I asked him a couple more times to do things and would try to explain to him the best way to handle it. Cleaning is a skill like any other. But he used to get really mad if I gave him instructions on anything because he would say he already knew how to do it (he didn't though). So invariably, it would simply mean that I'd have to fix or redo whatever he did...so there was no point.

The only thing that helped me stay in my first marriage as long as I did was that for the last 12 years of our marriage, we slept in separate master suites. So if his bedroom smelled like a monkey pit and his bathroom was gross, I didn't care cause me and the kids didn't go in there.

And this in no way is an indictment of all men. My ex was a very unique idiot that in did not represent the male of our species at all.


----------



## jsmart

@lifeistooshort, I believe the husband should do his share and DEFINIELY not take his wife for granted But you have to see that the pendlum has swung so far against marriage and men. The amount of frivorces is skyrocketing. 

There is no stigma. A woman can proudly state she's a walk away wife. Instead of someone intervening with advise to try to resolve problems you have friends egging the woman on. Marriage vows don't mean anything. 

With the courts ensuring there are financial incentives to break up the family, sometimes woman can life better than she did while married.

With an endless line of thirsty men willing to date a divorcee with kids there is the promise of tons of men to chose from. With no stigma of being considered loose. 

Then there is our media, that glamorizes divorce in movies, books, magazines. It's like they're lifting up the status of divorced people while lowering marriage.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@jsmart LOL!!! That's hilarious!! Ya gotta give him some A for effort. What a visual.


----------



## BlueWoman

marduk said:


> It really irritates me that my wife's bra and panties often don't match.
> 
> I mean, it's a small thing that would only take an extra few seconds out of her day, and would mean a lot to me.
> 
> It must mean that she's quite the ***** for not conforming to my value system, and that she doesn't love me, and deserves to be divorced.
> 
> Bwahahahaha!





BetrayedDad said:


> In all seriousness. That REALLY annoys me when women do that too.
> 
> Easily as much as a stupid dish by the sink. Probably more.


You know this is the thing...why wouldn't your wife wear matching panties and bra if it bothered you when she didn't. My ex had a definite preference on my underwear and so that's what I wore. As long as it wasn't uncomfortable to be my why wouldn't I do something for no other reason than he preferred it. I did a lot of things because he preferred it. For me these small things were acts of love. 

Maybe guys don't feel the same way about that. Maybe they don't care. As long as they get head on a daily basis it doesn't matter to them. 

Which I think is kind of the point of the article. It doesn't matter if you think putting a glass in the dishwasher is a big deal. If she does then that should be enough. Even if you don't get it. 

Because, to me that's kind of what I thought it was all about. I thought marriage was all about doing nice things for each other. I though it meant caring about how my significant other felt, even if it wasn't a big deal to me. I thought it meant that sometimes I did things that I thought were stupid, because it made him happy. I thought it would be a two way streak. It turns out, at least for me, it wasn't. 

And before anyone accused me of denying sex...I was the HD in the relationship. He was the one who withheld sex. And that wasn't enough to make me leave the marriage. It was when I realized he would with hold anything that involved him going out of his way or putting effort. 

And for the person who said there is tons of projection...of course there is. When I read this, it was like reading a story about my marriage. Even though I was the one who left glasses around... What I saw in that story was a man recognizing that he had consistently, over the course of their marriage ignored the small stuff that was important to her, because it wasn't important to him. When in fact that was the very stuff he should have taken care of. The stuff that wasn't a big deal to him, that didn't involve going out of his way much. 

Sadly from this thread, I realize that my ex wasn't an isolated case. That there are many men who actually resent that they might have to go out of their way for their wives. 

Quite frankly, if I'm not worth going out your way for, why would I want to have sex with you.


----------



## BlueWoman

jsmart said:


> @lifeistooshort, I believe the husband should do his share and DEFINIELY not take his wife for granted But you have to see that the pendlum has swung so far against marriage and men. The amount of frivorces is skyrocketing.
> 
> There is no stigma. A woman can proudly state she's a walk away wife. Instead of someone intervening with advise to try to resolve problems you have friends egging the woman on. Marriage vows don't mean anything.
> 
> With the courts ensuring there are financial incentives to break up the family, sometimes woman can life better than she did while married.
> 
> With an endless line of thirsty men willing to date a divorcee with kids there is the promise of tons of men to chose from. With no stigma of being considered loose.
> 
> Then there is our media, that glamorizes divorce in movies, books, magazines. It's like they're lifting up the status of divorced people while lowering marriage.


Actually the divorce rate is going down. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/upshot/the-divorce-surge-is-over-but-the-myth-lives-on.html?_r=0

I get that there are some men who really feel they got that wrong end of the stick in a divorce. I can find plenty of women who also got the wrong end of the stick. 

My ex actually feels resentful because I wanted him to get my name off of his student loans and the car payment for the car he was driving. 

He actually complained about it. 

So, I am a little skeptical that the pendulum has swung against men. I think divorce just sucks for men and women. 

I am glad that there is no stigma in divorce. But to be honest, I stayed in my marriage far too long. I should have left with his first EA.


----------



## EleGirl

MattMatt said:


> Actually he wanted the glass there so he could get another drink without having to get a second glass out.


The words he used here "I may want to use it again." 

I took it as sometimes he's want to use it again. Sometimes he might not... basically that the reason was not always the same.

I wonder if he ever told her that this was why he left it out.


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> Omg, sorry for mixing them up!
> 
> You don't know why I think you had realistic expectations?


I meant you thought I had unrealistic expectations. I'm not sure fi you thought I had unrealistic expectations other than based on mixing me up with EnigmaGirl's post.


----------



## BetrayedDad

marduk said:


> The fact that you see no irony in that statement astounds me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You mean hypocracy don't you?

Call it what it is.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> Which I think is kind of the point of the article. It doesn't matter if you think putting a glass in the dishwasher is a big deal. If she does then that should be enough. Even if you don't get it.


I agree except that sometimes people that are bothered by little things like this aren't bothered by just one little thing.

They're bothered by a million things that change on a daily basis.

I saw a Dr Phil show once where the wife was complaining about the way the husband breathed. Actually would tell him "not to breathe like that."

I think there is some truth to the fact that there are partners that just nag too much about everything and it becomes overwhelming for the nagee to keep up with all the things they're apparently doing wrong.


----------



## BlueWoman

EnigmaGirl said:


> I agree except that sometimes people that are bothered by little things like this aren't bothered by just one little thing.


I think that's true. But I think my ex would have said that about me. I think he thought that I thought he couldn't do anything right. 

Whereas what I really thought was that he could do plenty right, he just chose not too. 

Maybe the reality is that it was somewhere in the middle. 

In the end though it ruined our marriage. Well besides the fact that he was sleeping with someone else.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> Well besides the fact that he was sleeping with someone else.


lol, yea well that'll do it.

Hopefully he's leaving glasses by the sink for his AP too.


----------



## jld

EnigmaGirl said:


> lol, yea well that'll do it.
> 
> Hopefully he's leaving glasses by the sink for his AP too.


----------



## Evinrude58

EleGirl said:


> I agree that a WAS needs to tell their spouse what’s going on. But if you look at the description of the WAW syndrome, the WAW learned a long time ago that talking to her husband does nothing. He does not care what her needs are.
> 
> According the description of the WAW Syndrome. The women finally just give up trying to talk about their needs because they know that their husbands do not care about their needs. So they enter a period of time when they stop talking with the intent to learn to live with it. They try to stuff their needs not being met. They do this because they love their spouse and want to stay married to them. They want to make the marriage work and if just accepting the status quo is what is needed then they try that. And then, only after a long time of trying to stuff their needs, do they get to the point of wanting out. They fall out of love. (It’s the empty love bank thing)
> 
> There are two different things being talked about on this thread.
> 
> The first thing that is being discussed is what is a reasonable thing for which to leave a marriage. It’s not clear that the author of that article is a left behind husband. He knew what upset her. So clearly she was telling him. But he did not care to address it.
> 
> The other thing is WAW/S syndrome.
> 
> These are two different topics.
> 
> Because of the threads we’ve had here on TAM about WAW/S, I’ve learned something very important and am using it on TAM. When a spouse, man or woman comes to TAM and they are clearly in the WAW/H situation, I talk to them about learning to talk about their needs in a way that is very clear; to assess what they have been asking for to make sure what they want is reasonable (glass by the sink?) and to then talk to their spouse and let their spouse know how serious it is. This is often when I suggest that they read “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters”… to teach them what is reasonable to expect and how to talk about it. Then hopefully the next step is for them to talk to their spouse and work through the books together and actually start meeting each other’s needs.
> 
> Sometimes an ultimatum is needed to finally get the attention of their spouse. This has to be done before they lose all love for their spouse.


I think this can definitely be accurate. There's no freaking manual that comes with a wife because every one is different. There should be instructions on how and what to so to keep them happy tattooed on their butts...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Evinrude58 said:


> I think this can definitely be accurate. There's no freaking manual that comes with a wife because every one is different. There should be instructions on how and what to so to keep them happy tattooed on their butts...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL!!


----------



## OpenWindows

BlueWoman said:


> It doesn't matter if you think putting a glass in the dishwasher is a big deal. If she does then that should be enough. Even if you don't get it.
> 
> Because, to me that's kind of what I thought it was all about. I thought marriage was all about doing nice things for each other. I though it meant caring about how my significant other felt, even if it wasn't a big deal to me. I thought it meant that sometimes I did things that I thought were stupid, because it made him happy. I thought it would be a two way streak. It turns out, at least for me, it wasn't.


It really is all of those little gestures that build so much of a good relationship. They create a sense of respect and belonging, little by little.

My boyfriend has a thing about keeping right on the highway. He's really adamant that the left lane is for passing only so you have to keep right, and you should NEVER pass while in the right lane! I don't get why this a big deal to him, I think it's kind of dumb. But it IS a big deal to him, so I keep right. 

I have a thing about cleaning kitchen counters with the dish sponge. I think it's gross and unsanitary, and it just sets me on edge. BF doesn't get why I care so much, and that's how he's always cleaned his counters. But he knows it bothers me, so he doesn't do it (at least not when I'm around, LOL).

It's about making each other happy in all those little ways that really aren't much extra trouble to you. Those are all little gestures of love and respect.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> There should be instructions on how and what to so to keep them happy tattooed on their butts...


Ass tattoos make me unhappy.


----------



## EleGirl

Evinrude58 said:


> I think this can definitely be accurate. There's no freaking manual that comes with a wife because every one is different. There should be instructions on how and what to so to keep them happy tattooed on their butts...


LOL.. we could use the same thing for men... >


----------



## AliceA

DH has always had this response to me telling him I would like him to just do what needs to be done:

“If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.”

and this is exactly how I feel about it:

"But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household.

She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management.

I wish I could remember what seemed so unreasonable to me about that at the time."


----------



## MattMatt

EnigmaGirl said:


> I agree except that sometimes people that are bothered by little things like this aren't bothered by just one little thing.
> 
> They're bothered by a million things that change on a daily basis.
> 
> I saw a Dr Phil show once where the wife was complaining about the way the husband breathed. Actually would tell him "not to breathe like that."
> 
> I think there is some truth to the fact that there are partners that just nag too much about everything and it becomes overwhelming for the nagee to keep up with all the things they're apparently doing wrong.


And on the Jeremy Kyle show in the UK there was a woman who had a long, long list of complaints against her husband including the 'funny face' he made whilst he had an orgasm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AliceA

I don't tell my husband what underwear to wear, and he doesn't tell me. I'm not sure how expecting someone to do their share around the house is considered so unreasonable, but dictating to someone what underwear they should wear is okay?


----------



## Livvie

Did anyone read the test of his blog? It's pretty sad, he's pretty sad about how he treated his wife for years and mourns the loss of his marriage. He put everything first before her. Passed on requests to spend time with her. It wasn't about cleaning.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breeze said:


> I don't tell my husband what underwear to wear, and he doesn't tell me. I'm not sure how expecting someone to do their share around the house is considered so unreasonable, but dictating to someone what underwear they should wear is okay?


You missed the point.

Clean/Tidy kitchen was important to her.

Sex/ Beauty is important to him.

Both should care what is important to the other.



I find it interesting how quick women want the man to "get her" but don't take a nano second to care what's important to him. I've seen it on this very thread, and I have been guilty when I didn't even realize it and I challenge all the women on here spouting off about the inadequacies of men to step up and self assess. Not all of the women on here are being inconsiderate of the important things to men, but many are. The hypocrisy is stunning. While you are holding your men to a high standard of caring what matters to you, you need to first hold yourself to a high standard of what is important to him. Just how contemptuous are you being and are you taking pause to assess the reasonableness of your contempt. Yes, we have all been through a lot, but it doesn't give us license to be hypocrites or rest on our laurels. Lets keep our side of the street clean Ladies.


----------



## jsmart

BlueWoman said:


> *Actually the divorce rate is going down. *
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/upshot/the-divorce-surge-is-over-but-the-myth-lives-on.html?_r=0
> 
> I get that there are some men who really feel they got that wrong end of the stick in a divorce. I can find plenty of women who also got the wrong end of the stick.
> 
> My ex actually feels resentful because I wanted him to get my name off of his student loans and the car payment for the car he was driving.
> 
> He actually complained about it.
> 
> So, I am a little skeptical that the pendulum has swung against men. I think divorce just sucks for men and women.
> 
> I am glad that there is no stigma in divorce. But to be honest, I stayed in my marriage far too long. I should have left with his first EA.


You're right that the divorce rate is down. What is up is frivolous divorce. 

Women divorcing men for frivolous reasons. No abuse or infidelity. They simply didn't "feel" the passion or "they grew apart." So they blow up their families. Oh, they find petty things to complain about blow them up to extreme levels. They also downplay the positive of their husband to make him seem like a neglectful heel. 

There is no incentive to work things out. Even though studies have been done that show that couples that toughed it out were happier 5 years later than those who decided to divorce. Which is surprising because divorcees like WWs, have that need to justify their decisions. They have to blow up the problems they had with their husbands to justify their actions. They also will glamourise their current life, so that they don't have to face the wreckage they created. 

Kids acting out, getting involved in drugs or becoming sexually active at much younger ages than kids in intact families. But those problems pale in comparison to mommy being happy with the new sex partners she's racking up. Even adult children are affected by divorce. 

So many woman plot to wait until the kids are older. Blindside their husband with D as soon as they feel financially or feel that kids should be able to handle it now. But it's actually older children who are wounded the most.


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

breeze said:


> DH has always had this response to me telling him I would like him to just do what needs to be done:
> 
> “If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.”
> 
> and this is exactly how I feel about it:
> 
> "But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household.
> 
> She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management.
> 
> I wish I could remember what seemed so unreasonable to me about that at the time."


But doesn't this verge on asking the husband to be psychic about what the wife wants? How fair is that?


----------



## OpenWindows

Livvie said:


> Did anyone read the test of his blog? It's pretty sad, he's pretty sad about how he treated his wife for years and mourns the loss of his marriage. He put everything first before her. Passed on requests to spend time with her. It wasn't about cleaning.


We're treating the glass like it's the only bad thing that happened in their marriage. I had a feeling it was more than that. From his blog intro -



> I was a ****ty husband.
> 
> For years I put my wants ahead of the wants and needs of the person to whom I promised forever.
> 
> She tried to talk to me about it. But I didn’t listen.
> 
> I thought she was nagging. Complaining. Being needy. Being a *****.
> 
> No one wants to hear bad things being said about themselves. So when we do, we don’t listen. We justify our behavior. Rationalize it. Get defensive.
> 
> Because we’re good. Because we’re nice. Because we mean well.
> 
> I didn’t get it. I probably still don’t. But I’m closer than before.
> 
> I want to help men “get it.”


His site:
Must Be This Tall To Ride | I'm a single dad documenting his journey. A guy trying to walk a higher path. And messing up. A lot.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I'm not surprised there's more to it, nor am I surprised by the defensiveness of most of the guys here who continue to insist this is about what they deem stupid reasons.

Frankly if he was turning down requests to spend time with her I question how much he wanted to be married to her. Unless he sees a wife as a convenience for sex and services. 

Maybe that's the root of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VirgenTecate

> Are Our Complaining Wives ‘Irrational’?
> 
> That’s what John said after reading She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink, a headline that accidentally hookwinked hundreds of thousands of readers.
> 
> He called it “irrational” for a wife to be upset about a dish by the sink.
> 
> Here’s the common male thought process: Because it’s “irrational” for her to feel that way, a husband is not obligated to cooperate on the matter. After all, “irrational” is not so different than “wrong.”
> 
> My wife is wrong. I am right. End of discussion, *****!
> 
> It doesn’t even seem crazy to me because that’s exactly how I felt in those frustrating marriage fights, and I’m reasonably smart. This isn’t something that had ever come up in life until my girlfriend and future-wife started upsetting me with all of her “irrational”ness.
> 
> If we fought long enough, she would just cry, at which time I thought she was unstable, but had an easier time speaking with her then because Sad is so much easier to deal with than Angry.
> 
> In John’s current form, he has no chance of ever finding common ground with a wife or girlfriend. Because any time he considers her opinions or emotions “irrational,” he will simply dismiss them as inconsequential. Once his little argument is over, he’ll never think about it again.
> 
> And maybe he doesn’t care.
> 
> Maybe single guys don’t care because they don’t want to be married anyway. I’m cool with that.
> 
> What I’m not cool with are the guys suggesting their “rational” opinion that a glass left by the sink—innocently and with ZERO malice—shouldn’t be dismissed or deemed less important than their wives’ “irrational” emotional response to it. I’m not cool with people who want to marry or want to stay married doing things I know to be toxic in relationships.
> 
> Rational Emotion: Is There Such a Thing?


This is the reason why he said he wrote the post. It seems like it is less about actions and more about communication styles.

Must Be This Tall To Ride | I'm a single dad documenting his journey. A guy trying to walk a higher path. And messing up. A lot.

I would be interested in TAM's perspective on this. On men and women's different communication styles and how we would overcome it? What if he came on this forum asking us for adivce?

Edit: I am going to add that many conclusions he comes to I do not. Such as "if you treat a woman this way for so long she will have sex with another man". That's believing affairs are the BS fault. There are a few other things I do not agree with.



> A critical lesson of my divorce: We must allow others to have their own individual human experiences, and accept that they’re real even when they react to something differently than we do, or describe a conflicting feeling.
> 
> What that means is, some people can be called an ******* and it’s funny, and some people can be called an ******* and it REALLY upsets them.
> 
> One is not rational while the other is irrational. One is not logical while the other is illogical.
> 
> It’s simply two separate people experiencing the SAME thing two DIFFERENT ways.
> 
> It’s not right or wrong. It just IS.
> 
> I used to believe my wife was irrational. Because I believed my wife was irrational, I never took seriously her requests for me to more assertively participate in our marriage on MANY levels—not just dish washing, which I actually did reasonably well.


----------



## jld

Here's a thought:

_"I predict that any man who doesn’t understand the dish metaphor, OR feels offended and reacts defensively to it as if I believe wives’ or women’s feelings are somehow more important than husbands’ or men’s, also doesn’t participate actively in his marriage.

It likely means that when his wife tells him that something he does or doesn’t do hurts her, he dismisses it as her being “irrational.” And because he does that, she feels abandoned and alone in her marriage. Wives who feel abandoned and alone in their marriages will eventually do one of three things: Have sex with other men, leave their husbands, or both.

Deny that at your peril."_


----------



## VirgenTecate

> Hundreds of men said it. And five years ago, I would have agreed with them: “Why does it always have to be the man changing for the wife? I’m pretty sure the wife could also show love and respect by just putting the glass in the dishwasher and not complaining about it! I hate that men always get blamed for this stuff even though it takes 50/50 to make it work!”
> 
> The answer to that is: You’re NOT changing for her. You’re not going to tell her she’s a crazy, nagging, complaining shrew AND also not help her with things she pleads for help with for the same reason you wouldn’t hit her with a baseball bat.
> 
> Because it hurts her. And you NEVER want to intentionally hurt her. And once the truth dawns on you: Holy ****. Now I understand why she gets upset about me throwing my socks on the floor, and that it causes her pain in ways I don’t experience. Then, the light bulb can go off.
> 
> Ohhhhhh. Because she has told me this 18,000 times, and I always dismiss her as crazy and tell her that she’s wrong, I can finally understand why it FEELS to her like I’m hurting her intentionally. It all makes sense now.
> 
> A lot of men think their wives shouldn’t be allowed to feel hurt by things because that same thing would never hurt them. The man makes the conversation about the thing they disagree on, instead of how bad it makes her feel.
> 
> Things the Post Wasn’t About
> 
> It wasn’t about me.
> 
> It wasn’t about Men Vs. Women.
> 
> It wasn’t about encouraging men to be subservient husbands.
> 
> It wasn’t about propping up wives as the all-knowing and wise queens of how to structure relationships.
> 
> It wasn’t about complaints suggesting my wife nagged me over inconsequential things.
> 
> And for Pete’s freaking sake, IT WAS NOT ABOUT THE DAMN DISHES
> 
> he most important lesson I’ve learned post-divorce is how critical it is for human beings to have well-communicated, strongly enforced boundaries. Boundaries which are ideally discussed and mutually respected during the dating process and long before anyone agrees to marry.
> 
> No, men. Your wives should never be domineering tyrants.
> 
> Wives are not better than husbands. Women are not better than men. (Nor the other way around.)
> The “dishes” post that wasn’t really about dishes at all.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

THIS is the crux of his blog.... he is telling EVERYONE to self assess well, have strong well discussed boundaries and head into marriage seriously. So the women are NOT off the hook in this guy's blog just because he is writing to the men as he says so himself. 

"The *most* important lesson I’ve learned post-divorce is how *critical* it is for *human beings *to have *well-communicated*, *strongly enforced boundaries*. Boundaries which are* ideally discussed *and *mutually respected *during the dating process and *long before anyone agrees to marry*.

No, men.* Your wives should never be domineering tyrants*. But there can be no question that if you’re married to one of those, it’s because you allowed it to happen AND failed to demonstrate competence—either in the life areas which she now must control, or in the preservation of your self-respect or enforcement of your boundaries."

This was MY road. My husband failed in TWO extremely important areas, safety and trust, causing me to HAVE to pick up his slack in them for the best interest of the family. As soon as he had his feet back under him, I handed his part in those areas right back to him. We walk this thing together. I'm grateful he was willing, but his failure in no way lets me off the hook for remaining on my feet and not failing the marriage. No room for self righteousness, just because he failed. It is something that I choose to self assess on all the time and he will *still* catch me in hypocrisy even when I don't try, so self righteousness is an EASY area for humans to trip over and create an unbalanced situation at home. I just don't see the women off the hook here.


----------



## Wolf1974

VirgenTecate said:


> This is the reason why he said he wrote the post. It seems like it is less about actions and more about communication styles.
> 
> Must Be This Tall To Ride | I'm a single dad documenting his journey. A guy trying to walk a higher path. And messing up. A lot.
> 
> I would be interested in TAM's perspective on this. On men and women's different communication styles and how we would overcome it? What if he came on this forum asking us for adivce?
> 
> Edit: I am going to add that many conclusions he comes to I do not. Such as "if you treat a woman this way for so long she will have sex with another man". That's believing affairs are the BS fault. There are a few other things I do not agree with.


That's correct we certinaly have different communication styles. Only way to overcome it is to talk openly and REPECT the other viewpoint. My experience is you won't see much of that on tam. 

I can only speculate that BOTH spouses get dismissive about little things when they FEEL dismissed about the things they feel important. You see this when we talk about sex issues....wife doesn't feel respected so doesn't want sex, husband can't have sex so feels disrespected. It's the chicken and the egg scenario . 

This is about a glass and a million things behind it. Guessing he had a million minor things that bothered him as well. I have never seen a perfect relationship. But the really great realtionships I have seen don't stew in the little things they work hard to fix the big issues. When the big issues are fixed then the minor issues just seem less important, the reverse is true as well.


----------



## jld

Another good one:

_"The “dishes” post is about trying to help husbands get from oblivious to enlightened RE: Why Their Wives Seem to Care About “Little” Things We Don’t Care About. Men don’t understand how a stupid glass by the sink could actually hurt. That sounds insane to him. Until he figures out how to believe it’s happening anyway, and then care about the glass BECAUSE he cares about his wife, these totally cliché and annoying Man Vs. Woman, But That’s Not Fair!!! whine festivals will continue."_


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> I meant you thought I had unrealistic expectations. I'm not sure fi you thought I had unrealistic expectations other than based on mixing me up with EnigmaGirl's post.


No, I think you had realistic expectations. 

I just wasn't connecting how a guy who does nothing else wrong except leave his water glass by the sink (as stated as the sole reason for divorce in the article) had anything to do with your situation which sounds pathological - leaving rotting food around the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Blossom Leigh said:


> THIS is the crux of his blog.... he is telling EVERYONE to self assess well, have strong well discussed boundaries and head into marriage seriously. So the women are NOT off the hook in this guy's blog just because he is writing to the men as he says so himself.
> 
> "The *most* important lesson I’ve learned post-divorce is how *critical* it is for *human beings *to have well-communicated, *strongly enforced boundaries*. Boundaries which are* ideally discussed *and *mutually respected *during the dating process and *long before anyone agrees to marry*.
> 
> No, men.* Your wives should never be domineering tyrants*. But there can be no question that if you’re married to one of those, it’s because you allowed it to happen AND failed to demonstrate competence—either in the life areas which she now must control, or in the preservation of your self-respect or enforcement of your boundaries."
> 
> This was MY road. My husband failed in TWO extremely important areas, safety and trust, causing me to HAVE to pick up his slack in them for the best interest of the family. As soon as he had his feet back under him, I handed his part in those areas right back to him. We walk this thing together. I'm grateful he was willing, but his failure in no way lets me off the hook for remaining on my feet and not failing the marriage. No room for self righteousness, just because he failed. It is something that I choose to self assess on all the time and he will *still* catch me in hypocrisy even when I don't try, so self righteousness is an EASY area for humans to trip over and create an unbalanced situation at home. I just don't see the women off the hook here.


I agree also post divorce. I think so much of it comes from understanding yourself and what you can and can't live with. How important it is to be on the same page, at minimum about the really big things/ deal breakers.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> It really is all of those little gestures that build so much of a good relationship. They create a sense of respect and belonging, little by little.
> 
> My boyfriend has a thing about keeping right on the highway. He's really adamant that the left lane is for passing only so you have to keep right, and you should NEVER pass while in the right lane! I don't get why this a big deal to him, I think it's kind of dumb. But it IS a big deal to him, so I keep right.
> 
> I have a thing about cleaning kitchen counters with the dish sponge. I think it's gross and unsanitary, and it just sets me on edge. BF doesn't get why I care so much, and that's how he's always cleaned his counters. But he knows it bothers me, so he doesn't do it (at least not when I'm around, LOL).
> 
> It's about making each other happy in all those little ways that really aren't much extra trouble to you. Those are all little gestures of love and respect.


Why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> I understand, OW.
> 
> I will admit that I probably have high standards in some ways. I may expect too much.
> 
> But when I have to ask for something time and again, only to see him sitting on the couch watching a movie, or prioritizing something else over whatever I have asked for how many times, I start losing respect for him. If I lose respect for him, I don't want to be close.
> 
> The article talked about how much men want to be respected. If they want true respect, they need to earn it.


Imagine how powerful you would feel if instead of nagging and taking his reaction personally, you did the task yourself. This would allow your husband to feel safer and so open his heart to you, I feel there may be unmet needs on his part


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Another good one:
> 
> _"The “dishes” post is about trying to help husbands get from oblivious to enlightened RE: Why Their Wives Seem to Care About “Little” Things We Don’t Care About. Men don’t understand how a stupid glass by the sink could actually hurt. That sounds insane to him. Until he figures out how to believe it’s happening anyway, and then care about the glass BECAUSE he cares about his wife, these totally cliché and annoying Man Vs. Woman, But That’s Not Fair!!! whine festivals will continue."_


Its a choice to let it hurt.


----------



## Marduk

breeze said:


> I don't tell my husband what underwear to wear, and he doesn't tell me. I'm not sure how expecting someone to do their share around the house is considered so unreasonable, but dictating to someone what underwear they should wear is okay?


Tell me. 

Everything else aside - is leaving a glass by the sink that you might use again unreasonable?

Nowhere does it say that he didn't help out around the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Livvie said:


> Did anyone read the test of his blog? It's pretty sad, he's pretty sad about how he treated his wife for years and mourns the loss of his marriage. He put everything first before her. Passed on requests to spend time with her. It wasn't about cleaning.


If that's true, the glass never mattered, and all he is doing in this article is lying to himself and everyone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VirgenTecate

Hey, just posting another quote from a responder. I liked the idea about personal responsibility. 



> . I honestly don’t think it’s intentional, or at least not intentional from the standpoint of actively seeking a negative response. As referenced in Matt’s post (and continuing with his analogy), it’s because we’re just waiting for the light bulb to go off for our wives where they realize we men were right all along–it’s just a stupid dirty dish. Entire galaxies will come into being and smash themselves out of existence in the lifespan of this Universe that’s been built on a foundation of chaos, so how can a stupid dirty dish matter in the grand (or even meager) scheme of things? We’re not seeking a negative response from women; we’re waiting for them to start thinking like men. It is our own little uniquely male version of insanity: practicing the same behaviors/approach over and over again, expecting a different result.
> 
> 2. For me, and I can speak for no other, it was that simple realization as highlighted in this article (though I came to the same conclusion about a month before this blog post went live, thank God–had I not, I would have been too late) that IT DOESN’T HAVE TO MATTER TO ME, BUT THE FACT THAT IT MATTERS TO HER HAS TO. I will never give one friggin’ flip about the dishes piling up. I’ll never even notice those little dried pee drops around the rim of the toilet. I’ll never give two squats about that giant pile of tree limbs that fell down over two years ago in an ice storm and have sat there ever since–hell, I don’t live out in the backyard, do I?–and I’ll sure never feel zipadeedoodah about dropping $250 of my hard-earned wages for someone to come haul them all away. But they matter to her. I hate that they do. It seems like such wasted psychological and emotional energy to me that they do. BUT THEY DO.
> 
> And if I love this woman as much as my wedding vows say I do, then I have to be all right with that. I have to understand that, like physics and advanced mathematics, just because it doesn’t make one whit of sense to me doesn’t mean it isn’t critical. My wife is critical. Her smile (oh, you can’t imagine what her perfect, high-wattage smile does to me), the twinkle in her eyes, her happiness, her contentment, her vitality, her peace of mind and heart are critical, and if they went away forever, none of the physical ease I awarded myself from ignoring dirty dishes, pee stained toilet rims or mountains of dead tree limbs will ever come anywhere remotely near filling the despairing, hellish hole she would have left in my heart and soul in her wake. It’s as simple as knowing that I love myself fully and completely…yet I love her more. I exist to do everything I can to make her life–not mine!–every rewarding thing it can and should be. I have to fully trust that her life’s mission will be reciprocal, but she owns that part of the story. All I own is my responsibility to her. Hand to God, I don’t intend to ever lose sight of my duty to her again.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree also post divorce. I think so much of it comes from understanding yourself and what you can and can't live with. How important it is to be on the same page, at minimum about the really big things/ deal breakers.


Agree. And the reality is, there is a LOT there we can't know before marriage. I would have NEVER suspected my H fail the way he did. It showed up after our son was born. I think he was struggling under the pressure of now being a parent of a new born. So sometimes it shows up well into the relationship. What do you do then? I wasn't willing to waste this family on my selfishness no matter how much I hurt over his failure. It was extremely important to me to salvage the wreckage even though I didn't cause it. My son needed his father to be better and I wanted the love of my life healed. I didn't want to lose the deepest connection I have ever experienced. To my dying day I vow to take care of my childs father and my greatest love. That choice is on me. And if the day comes that abuse returns unabated I will choose to love him and take care of him from a distance.


----------



## VirgenTecate

> read your dirty dishes in the sink post on Facebook and the woman who shared it had many comments from her friends. When I shared this with my fiance, he asked me how many men commented on my friend’s share and I said none. We had a long discussion and I told him that your post isn’t just about the “little things” men don’t do, as I feel it goes both ways. It was a good, healthy conversation for both of us and it made me conscious of “little things” (from my point of view) that I can work on that are big to him.
> 
> Since our discussion, my fiance has been putting his dishes in the sink because he knows it’s a big deal to me. He’s been so conscious of this that he put his dirty dishes in a clean dishwasher. We both laughed. Thank you for the great writing. I’m following you now as I feel a relationship is like a job: it constantly needs attention, improvement, room for growth, as well as a genuine love and passion for being where you are at that time. My first marriage broke up after 26 years of being together, 23 married (by the time the divorce was final) and four beautiful sons that will never be the same. I told my oldest son that I don’t regret anything in my first marriage and there are no guarantees in life and it takes two to make any relationship work.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree also post divorce. I think so much of it comes from understanding yourself and what you can and can't live with. How important it is to be on the same page, at minimum about the really big things/ deal breakers.


I agree. And there is a lot we cannot know for sure before marriage. I would have NEVER suspected my H to fail the way he did. It showed up after our son was born. I believe the pressure of a new born brought out the character issues HE didn't even know were there. So sometimes it shows up well into the relationship, blindsiding everyone. What do you do then? I wasn't willing to waste this family on my selfishness no matter how much I hurt over his failure. It was extremely important to me to salvage the wreckage even though I didn't cause it. My son needed his father to be better and I wanted the love of my life healed. I didn't want to lose the deepest connection I have ever experienced. To my dying day I vow to take care of my child's father and my greatest love. That choice is on me. My only deal breaker would be if the abuse returns unabated. Then I will have to love and care for him from a distance.


----------



## soccermom2three

richie33 said:


> I am sure it's not. But that same man was most likely the same way while they were dating. A ring doesn't magically change a person.


Huh?

My husband and I didn't live together before marriage. There are things you don't know about another person until you do, lol.


----------



## soccermom2three

jb02157 said:


> That's exactly the problem, it's too easy to get divorced these days and when you do, women get rewarded for it. We should go back to the way it was, where you really can't get a divorce.


Where are all these women? I don't know one woman that has benefited monetarily from a divorce. Their ex's lifestyle didn't change one wit.


----------



## soccermom2three

jld said:


> From the article:
> 
> _"She wants to divorce him because she feels like he doesn’t respect or appreciate her, which suggests he doesn’t love her, and she can’t count on him to be her lifelong partner. She can’t trust him. She can’t be safe with him. Thus, she must leave and find a new situation in which she can feel content and secure."_
> 
> I wish more men understood this. It is the small things that pile up over time that often break a marriage, the small things that leave her feeling alone. And finally she decides that if she feels alone, she might as well be alone. Then she won't have to worry about that glass anymore.
> 
> Great thread, BW.


I agree. This is why I'm head over heels in love with my husband all over again. We came close to being that couple that just exists together in the same house but when I expressed my concerns, he totally got it. He listened to me and he decided that he wanted a more satisfying marriage too. Now we really work at staying connected. I wish more men got it.


----------



## OpenWindows

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Imagine how powerful you would feel if instead of nagging and taking his reaction personally, you did the task yourself. This would allow your husband to feel safer and so open his heart to you, I feel there may be unmet needs on his part


I did that. Just did it myself. And every time I did, he took that as permission to leave that task to me, because clearly I could handle it myself. So I handled more and more, until 10 years later I was handling nearly everything. And then he felt more like a dependent than a partner, and I couldn't respect that.

I can't love a man I don't respect. Maybe some people can, but not me.


----------



## naiveonedave

soccermom2three said:


> Where are all these women? I don't know one woman that has benefited monetarily from a divorce. Their ex's lifestyle didn't change one wit.


No one (at least virtually no one) exists a D with children at higher standard of living than when married. However, the point of contention here (and especially on the MGTOW thread) is that if you compared before marriage to after D, many women and few men are better off. Not sure I totally agree with this, but that is the perception. And it is an average thing, with many outliers.

For example, if I got D'd (praying and working to make that never happen), I would have been better off financially to never have been married, my W, on the other hand would have it the other way.


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> You missed the point.
> 
> Clean/Tidy kitchen was important to her.
> 
> Sex/ Beauty is important to him.
> 
> Both should care what is important to the other.
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting how quick women want the man to "get her" but don't take a nano second to care what's important to him. I've seen it on this very thread, and I have been guilty when I didn't even realize it and I challenge all the women on here spouting off about the inadequacies of men to step up and self assess. Not all of the women on here are being inconsiderate of the important things to men, but many are. The hypocrisy is stunning. While you are holding your men to a high standard of caring what matters to you, you need to first hold yourself to a high standard of what is important to him. Just how contemptuous are you being and are you taking pause to assess the reasonableness of your contempt. Yes, we have all been through a lot, but it doesn't give us license to be hypocrites or rest on our laurels. Lets keep our side of the street clean Ladies.


Please point out who all these women are on this thread that you are accusing of this. I'd like to go back and look at those posts so I can understand why are think they are doing what you accuse them of doing.


----------



## OpenWindows

Blossom Leigh said:


> Its a choice to let it hurt.


I've never mastered the art of choosing not to be hurt when the man I married ignores my feelings and requests because he deems them "not important enough". I hope I never do master it, because that's not a marriage I want to be in.


----------



## ButtPunch

So the jist of this thread is if a man doesn't want dirty dishes in the sink he is a psycho neat freak but
if a woman doesn't want dirty dishes in the sink, the man needs to respect her and understand it's more
than just a dirty dish. LOL


----------



## soccermom2three

naiveonedave said:


> For example, if I got D'd (praying and working to make that never happen), I would have been better off financially to never have been married, my W, on the other hand would have it the other way.


I don't understand. Are you saying only a man would be financially better off if he never married and didn't have kids? I think anyone that didn't get married and have kids would be financially better off.


----------



## soccermom2three

What I can't believe is there's actually posters on this thread that think the article is about a dirty dish.


----------



## Marduk

soccermom2three said:


> What I can't believe is there's actually posters on this thread that think the article is about a dirty dish.


Ok. I'll bite. 

I read the article. 

What's it about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ms. GP

soccermom2three said:


> What I can't believe is there's actually posters on this thread that think the article is about a dirty dish.


Some people just like to poke the beehive. :grin2:


----------



## EleGirl

breeze said:


> DH has always had this response to me telling him I would like him to just do what needs to be done:
> 
> “If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.”
> 
> and this is exactly how I feel about it:
> 
> "But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household.
> 
> She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management.
> 
> I wish I could remember what seemed so unreasonable to me about that at the time."


But doesn't this verge on asking the husband to be psychic about what the wife wants? How fair is that?




Lloyd Dobler said:


> But doesn't this verge on asking the husband to be psychic about what the wife wants? How fair is that?


Here is an example of what I think the wife of the guy in the article meant. I doubt from reading his blog that she was wanting him to psychic. On this issue she probably wanted him to take responsibility.

Husband is off for the day. There are dirty dishes in the sink, dinner needs to be cooked, and the wife it still at work. He’s playing video games. She comes home. There I dinner and nothing clean to cook with or to eat with. So now she is doing the dishes and cooking.

When she’s off for the day, she cleans up the kitchen and cooks dinner so that when he walks in the door there is a warm meal for him.. because she loves him and wants to do good things for him.
Why should she need to tell him that the dishes need to be done and dinner cooked when he has a day off and she does not?


----------



## always_alone

My SO often hitches at me for failing to put my dishes in the dishwasher. 

I attempt to be more considerate, and remember to put my dishes in the dishwasher.


----------



## naiveonedave

@EleGirl - you may be write, but you are making assumptions. This stuff is just there...


----------



## naiveonedave

soccermom2three said:


> I don't understand. Are you saying only a man would be financially better off if he never married and didn't have kids? I think anyone that didn't get married and have kids would be financially better off.


No. Just the not married part. If I were to have had kids w/my W but never had been married, my life style would be better than if we had married, had kids and D'd. Hers would be the other way around.


----------



## Middle of Everything

soccermom2three said:


> I don't understand. Are you saying only a man would be financially better off if he never married and didn't have kids? I think anyone that didn't get married and have kids would be financially better off.


No I dont believe hes speaking in generalities.

I believe hes speaking of certain cases. For instance Tiger Woods former wife. Benefitted financially from being married to him. Same goes for some guys. Say Oprah was married and divorced. That MAN would financially benefit from being married to her.

No sex war here from me. Just pointing things out.


----------



## Abc123wife

naiveonedave said:


> No one (at least virtually no one) exists a D with children at higher standard of living than when married. However, the point of contention here (and especially on the MGTOW thread) is that if you compared before marriage to after D, many women and few men are better off. Not sure I totally agree with this, but that is the perception. And it is an average thing, with many outliers.
> 
> For example, if I got D'd (praying and working to make that never happen), I would have been better off financially to never have been married, my W, on the other hand would have it the other way.


I am not so sure what you say about women being financially better off due to marriage as compared to if they had not married is true for most women. If many women had not married, their careers would have remained their top priority. In my case, I would not have given up good jobs (after advanced degrees) each time my husband wanted to move for his career advancement. I would not have been limited to the location of his job to get a new position, and I would not have finally given up trying to do career catch up after each move. I would not have stayed home with 4 kids (worked during the 1st 2). I think this is more common for women (putting their careers as a lower priority for the benefit of the husband's career and for children) than it is for men. 

So it is all how you look at it. The usual perception is often that the wife is being supported by a husband so she can stay home, not that she gave up a good career to support her husband allowing him to focus more on his career.


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

EleGirl said:


> But doesn't this verge on asking the husband to be psychic about what the wife wants? How fair is that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an example of what I think the wife of the guy in the article meant. I doubt from reading his blog that she was wanting him to psychic. On this issue she probably wanted him to take responsibility.
> 
> Husband is off for the day. There are dirty dishes in the sink, dinner needs to be cooked, and the wife it still at work. He’s playing video games. She comes home. There I dinner and nothing clean to cook with or to eat with. So now she is doing the dishes and cooking.
> 
> When she’s off for the day, she cleans up the kitchen and cooks dinner so that when he walks in the door there is a warm meal for him.. because she loves him and wants to do good things for him.
> Why should she need to tell him that the dishes need to be done and dinner cooked when he has a day off and she does not?


Elegirl,

I guess where I struggle with this is where the line is between being responsible and just "knowing" what my wife wants me to do without it being defined beforehand. Most guys I know prefer to have things clearly defined so they know what is expected of them. The problems come in when we were expected to do something we had no idea was even expected, or otherwise even mentioned. 

And full disclosure, yes there are times when I am not responsible in the way that the writer's wife expects. Getting better at it, though...


----------



## naiveonedave

@Abc123wife - I don't agree or disagree with your post above. I think there is some truth to both perspectives. If you use some real extremes, say Tiger Woods, his exW is way better off having married and D'd him than she likely would have been in any other scenario besides still being married to him. I am sure there are examples where the man benefited from marrying the rich woman. As the income gap between the H and W gets smaller, there is less benefit to the lower earner in a D and at some point, both end up losers.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> Please point out who all these women are on this thread that you are accusing of this. I'd like to go back and look at those posts so I can understand why are think they are doing what you accuse them of doing.


I don't have the inclination nor the time to do so, but also some of my knowledge about it comes from previous threads. You will also note that I also accuse myself of the thing I am challenging all the women here to consider doing.


----------



## Ms. GP

Lloyd Dobler said:


> Elegirl,
> 
> I guess where I struggle with this is where the line is between being responsible and just "knowing" what my wife wants me to do without it being defined beforehand. Most guys I know prefer to have things clearly defined so they know what is expected of them. The problems come in when we were expected to do something we had no idea was even expected, or otherwise even mentioned.
> 
> And full disclosure, yes there are times when I am not responsible in the way that the writer's wife expects. Getting better at it, though...


I agree. Men need the dots drawn really close together for them. That's why I tell my husband, "If I come home to a stinky unrun dishwasher after 5 days of being gone for work, I'm picking the moldiest most disgusting knife out of said dishwasher and stabbing you with it!!!"

I don't believe in hints.


----------



## naiveonedave

I guess I don't see where telling someone what you want is akin to being their mother? I mean, if I ask for a sexual favor, am I her father? (sorry if that is too gross, but that is the implication)


----------



## Abc123wife

marduk said:


> Ok. I'll bite.
> 
> I read the article.
> 
> What's it about?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It not the dish! It could be any number of things and more probably an accumulation of many things! For example, I said to my husband the other day after trying to balance everyone else's schedules "I wish I had a personal secretary!" I can not imagine how nice it would be for someone to keep track of everything for me, my appointments, my deadlines, my bill due dates, have needed documents available at a moments notice. Then add kids to that - keep everyone's appointments straight, remind everyone of deadlines, be sure the right cloths make it through the wash for the right kid for the right event/job/sport/activity... Now that is what i am good at (juggling), but my husband takes on other things to balance it all out. 

But if a husband is not contributing without having to be told what to do and when, not thinking what can I do to help, what can I take the responsibility for, then he just becomes more of an annoyance. If he needs to be handed a list of what he can do to help, that is just one more thing his wife has to do. All he has to do is show up and work on the list. Where is her list? Who is doing that for her?


----------



## ButtPunch

I am sorry but I have seen numerous threads with male OP's complaining that their wives do not
cook or clean enough. That they are slobs etc. 

The advice they get is maybe a clean house isn't that important too her. @FrenchFry is a perfect example

She admits she doesn't like to clean. She admits it isn't important to her. She knows what a big deal it is for
her husband. Does this mean she doesn't love or respect her husband. Absolutely not.


----------



## Marduk

Ms. GP said:


> I agree. Men need the dots drawn really close together for them. That's why I tell my husband, "If I come home to a stinky unrun dishwasher after 5 days of being gone for work, I'm picking the moldiest most disgusting knife out of said dishwasher and stabbing you with it!!!"
> 
> I don't believe in hints.


Physical violence as a humourous threat in response to non-compliance is acceptable because it comes from a woman and is directed to a man? 

With a side order of insinuation that men are stupid?

Fascinating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ms. GP

Not stupid. Just not as good at reading emotional cues. 

If my husband said the same thing back to me I would laugh. I guess I have a little bit of a dark sense of humor. I find humor diffuses a lot of tense situations especially with men. Of course, that is operating on the assumption that every man has a sense of humor, but I have learned that is a mistake on my part.


----------



## Marduk

Abc123wife said:


> It not the dish! It could be any number of things and more probably an accumulation of many things! For example, I said to my husband the other day after trying to balance everyone else's schedules "I wish I had a personal secretary!" I can not imagine how nice it would be for someone to keep track of everything for me, my appointments, my deadlines, my bill due dates, have needed documents available at a moments notice. Then add kids to that - keep everyone's appointments straight, remind everyone of deadlines, be sure the right cloths make it through the wash for the right kid for the right event/job/sport/activity... Now that is what i am good at (juggling), but my husband takes on other things to balance it all out.
> 
> But if a husband is not contributing without having to be told what to do and when, not thinking what can I do to help, what can I take the responsibility for, then he just becomes more of an annoyance. If he needs to be handed a list of what he can do to help, that is just one more thing his wife has to do. All he has to do is show up and work on the list. Where is her list? Who is doing that for her?


None of that is said or even insinuated in the article. 

In fact; quite the opposite. The stated position is that the sole issue is leaving the glass by the sink rather than putting it in the dishwasher. 

In fact, the author seems to indicate that if hadn't left it out, he would still be married.

The rest of your statement is pure projection based on your own position.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three

Popcorn2015 said:


> Bull crap.
> 
> If Matt Damon or Tom Brady left their dishes by the sink, this woman would have washed them gladly. She left the blog poster because she was no longer attracted to him, and it had nothing to do with dishes.


Why do you think she lost attraction? Do you think a switch just turned off in her head?


----------



## Marduk

soccermom2three said:


> Why do you think she lost attraction? Do you think a switch just turned off in her head?


As long as we're allowing conjecture, he lost his six pack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

soccermom2three said:


> Why do you think she lost attraction? Do you think a switch just turned off in her head?


PEA chemicals long gone?


----------



## Starstarfish

Just to say .... "But I might use it again." To me is a slightly scary idea. What's the time frame? An hour? A day? A week?

What does it matter, you ask? Have you ever watched Hoarders? Have you ever seen episodes where those people have kids and thought, "My god, how do kids grow up in this?" I was one of those kids, no lie. Could be a whole thread on its own.

So for all of this mental strife trying to pick apart the perspective that she's "unreasonable" and "a clean freak" with unrealistic expectations and all this other stuff. "But I might use it again ... soon, soonish ... ever." Is the first step in justifying not picking up anything or throwing anything away. And becoming angry, resentful, and accusatory about people "trying to control you" through cleanliness. 

And from my perspective with how that mindset goes extreme just saying ... I hear a lot of similar things on here.


----------



## EleGirl

Lloyd Dobler said:


> Elegirl,
> 
> I guess where I struggle with this is where the line is between being responsible and just "knowing" what my wife wants me to do without it being defined beforehand. Most guys I know prefer to have things clearly defined so they know what is expected of them. The problems come in when we were expected to do something we had no idea was even expected, or otherwise even mentioned.
> 
> And full disclosure, yes there are times when I am not responsible in the way that the writer's wife expects. Getting better at it, though...


What is it that your wife wants you to do that you need for her to tell you? (asking to get the basis of a discussion)


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> None of that is said or even insinuated in the article.
> 
> In fact; quite the opposite. The stated position is that the sole issue is leaving the glass by the sink rather than putting it in the dishwasher.
> 
> In fact, the author seems to indicate that if hadn't left it out, he would still be married.
> 
> The rest of your statement is pure projection based on your own position.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The article only indicates that when it's taken out of context of the rest of his blog, where he states that he neglected his wife and drove her away, and that the dish was only a tiny point in a much bigger problem.

He never said in this article that it was JUST the glass. He simply didn't mention any other things. The other stuff is in his other posts.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> The article only indicates that when it's taken out of context of the rest of his blog, where he states that he neglected his wife and drove her away, and that the dish was only a tiny point in a much bigger problem.
> 
> He never said in this article that it was JUST the glass. He simply didn't mention any other things. The other stuff is in his other posts.


Oh, you mean other random **** he posted which totally contradicts what he said in the article in question, specifically:



> Once someone figures out how to help a man equate the glass situation (which does not, and will never, affect him emotionally) with DEEPLY wounding his wife and making her feel sad, alone, unloved, abandoned, disrespected, afraid, etc. … Once men really grasp that and accept it as true even though it doesn’t make sense to them?


In which he clearly articulates that not putting the glass away is functionally equivalent to triggering an emotional reaction which includes feeling sad, alone and unloved.

Which is my point -- playing into this version of cause and effect is totally delusional.


----------



## Marduk

Starstarfish said:


> Just to say .... "But I might use it again." To me is a slightly scary idea. What's the time frame? An hour? A day? A week?
> 
> What does it matter, you ask? Have you ever watched Hoarders? Have you ever seen episodes where those people have kids and thought, "My god, how do kids grow up in this?" I was one of those kids, no lie. Could be a whole thread on its own.
> 
> So for all of this mental strife trying to pick apart the perspective that she's "unreasonable" and "a clean freak" with unrealistic expectations and all this other stuff. "But I might use it again ... soon, soonish ... ever." Is the first step in justifying not picking up anything or throwing anything away. And becoming angry, resentful, and accusatory about people "trying to control you" through cleanliness.
> 
> And from my perspective with how that mindset goes extreme just saying ... I hear a lot of similar things on here.


So now he's a hoarder because he leaves a glass next to the sink.


----------



## Ms. GP

marduk said:


> Physical violence as a humourous threat in response to non-compliance is acceptable because it comes from a woman and is directed to a man?
> 
> With a side order of insinuation that men are stupid?
> 
> Fascinating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You do realize that was not an actual threat of violence?


----------



## Marduk

Ms. GP said:


> Not stupid. Just not as good at reading emotional cues.
> 
> If my husband said the same thing back to me I would laugh. I guess I have a little bit of a dark sense of humor. I find humor diffuses a lot of tense situations especially with men. Of course, that is operating on the assumption that every man has a sense of humor, but I have learned that is a mistake on my part.


I could point at numerous studies that show that men are on average better at reading emotional cues than women are, they're just conditioned out of it.

And I don't find threatening violence funny, nor do I think insulting an entire gender aids your position in any way, all it does is insult yourself.

Your sense of smug superiority is showing.


----------



## Marduk

Ms. GP said:


> You do realize that was not an actual threat of violence?


Ah, because it's funny to threaten your husband with being stabbed.

You know, when he doesn't do what you want.

Because he's stupid.

Sorry, I didn't hear any humour in that whatsoever.


----------



## OpenWindows

No one is required to agree with the author's philosophy on marriage. But the author himself knows his wife did not leave over just a glass. The glass was a part of a larger pattern.

The author's blog post, entitled "Of course it was about more than dirty dishes"...



> I thought it was obvious that my wife didn’t—literally—want a divorce because of some dishes left by the sink.
> 
> I assumed no adult could possibly believe that. I was wrong.
> 
> Because many people gave the post the TL;DR treatment, or I did a lousy job of writing it, or they lacked the intellectual capacity to understand it, or never bothered to ask themselves the right questions because life is more comfortable when we’re secure in our personal beliefs, a frightening amount of people missed the point entirely.
> 
> My post*“She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink”*spent time as one of the most popular things on the internet over the weekend. As of this writing,*it has been read more than 2.3 million times.
> 
> For context, my previous most popular post had been read about 100,000 times. Over the course of 2 ½ years.
> 
> As a writer, you’re like*Cool! People are validating my work!*But then the comments start rolling in.
> 
> “Be a man. *****.”
> 
> “Your wife was a nagging shrew and you’re better off without her if she would leave you over something petty like a glass by the sink.”
> 
> “You’re STILL missing the point if you think she left you because of dishes!”
> 
> “You’re a sackless ***.”
> 
> “You’re sexist because you wrote that ‘Men are capable of things’ as if women couldn’t do those things, too!”
> 
> “You’re sexist because you write about how horrible men are, but never talk about how women can be the problem*too!”
> 
> My personal favorite was the Canadian high school girl who tweeted that my wife left because I write like “a whiny teenage girl.”
> 
> That was discouraging.
> 
> Things the Post Wasn’t About
> 
> It wasn’t about me.
> 
> It wasn’t about Men Vs. Women.
> 
> It wasn’t about encouraging men to be subservient husbands.
> 
> It wasn’t about propping up wives as the all-knowing*and wise queens of how to structure relationships.
> 
> It wasn’t about complaints*suggesting my wife nagged me*over inconsequential things.
> 
> And for Pete’s freaking sake,*IT WAS NOT ABOUT THE DAMN DISHES.
> 
> The “dishes” post has a thousand comments to the contrary, and each time I approved one of them I wanted to set myself on fire just a little bit more, because THAT—along with reading*another*new ******* call me a “mangina”—would feel infinitely less frustrating than all the people screaming on the internet while the entire point sailed*a thousand miles over their heads.
> 
> Things the Post Was About
> 
> Understand something, please. Until five seconds ago, a thousand people AT MOST, were reading my posts. This “dishes” one? It was read 63 times the day it was published. And all of them “know” me, in that they’ve read dozens, maybe hundreds, of my posts, so they recognized the metaphor immediately.
> 
> Here’s my entire thing:*I’m a child of divorce, and a few years ago I got divorced myself. I think divorce is very, very bad.
> 
> While I was trying and failing to save my marriage, I began a journey of introspection and self-discovery.*I wanted to understand what I had done to help break the marriage, and discover tools to repair it OR at the very least, to make sure I wouldn’t repeat the same mistakes in a future relationship.
> 
> I read books. I read articles. I spoke with married people. I spoke with divorced people. And I started writing down ideas and publishing them.
> 
> More and more and more, people were saying:*“Yes, this! You GET it!”
> 
> And if you read through the comments in the “dishes” post, you’ll see that the vast majority are*echoing that.
> 
> I’m no smarter than anyone else. I’ve simply heard the same divorce stories so many times now*that, combined with my not-too-distant memories of my marriage,*I’ve been able to identify terrifyingly common behaviors by husbands and boyfriends that mirror my own that I*now understand*to be marriage and relationship killers.
> 
> As someone passionately against divorce, I feel compelled to share these ideas.
> 
> I am NOT a “Get Married” advocate.*It’s clear most people are doing a terrible job in the partner-evaluation process, and overestimating their abilities to function as marriage partners, which mostly has to do with how we can’t know what we don’t know when we’re young.
> 
> And the adults shelter us from the ugly truth.
> 
> Mom and dad don’t tell you how they fantasize about running away, or sleeping with someone else who makes them feel desired and respected, or just how much more sad they feel today than they did when they were young. It’s because they want to preserve our innocence.
> 
> Our education system, shamefully, avoids the topic altogether.
> 
> But*I am a “Stay Married” advocate.*Unless we’re going to ban marriage or eliminate long-term monogamous relationships altogether,*I think it behooves us to improve an institution thataffects 95 percent of people*AND fails more than half the time.
> 
> …
> 
> People thought the “dishes” post was about me and wanted to critique my marriage based on a headline they misinterpreted.
> 
> The “dishes” post is about trying to help husbands get from oblivious to enlightened RE: Why Their Wives Seem to Care About “Little” Things We Don’t Care About.*Men don’t understand how a stupid glass by the sink could actually hurt. That sounds insane to him.*Until he figures out how to believe it’s happening anyway, and then care about the glass BECAUSE he cares about his wife, these totally cliché and annoying Man Vs. Woman,*But That’s Not Fair!!!whine festivals will continue.
> 
> People accused me of sexism.
> 
> I only write for husbands and about being a husband because that’s what I know.*I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman, wife or mother. I’m going to leave the role-reversal writing on these topics to the people who do know what it’s like.
> 
> And OF COURSE sometimes wives are the dish-leaving culprits in a marriage! But that’s just not*relevant to me writing for*guys like me.
> 
> Husbands who are frustrated with their wives’ cleanliness habits are not likely to identify with my marriage whatsoever.
> 
> People accused me of preaching submission.
> 
> Hahahahahahahaha!
> 
> I’m the most stubborn mule I know. It’s a damn shame you can’t hear my high-and-mighty*Piss off, you’re not the boss of me!*voice. That was my ex-wife’s favorite. (Not.)
> 
> The most important lesson I’ve learned post-divorce is*how critical it is for human beings to have well-communicated, strongly enforced boundaries.*Boundaries which are ideally discussed and mutually respected during the dating process and long before anyone agrees to marry.
> 
> No, men. Your wives should never be domineering tyrants.*But there can be no question that if you’re married to one of those, it’s because you allowed it to happen AND failed to demonstrate competence—either in the life areas which she now must control, or in the preservation of your self-respect or enforcement of your boundaries.
> 
> Wives are not better than husbands. Women are not better than men. (Nor the other way around.)
> 
> But*I see a hell of a lot of men getting marriage wrong, and this is my way of trying to help.
> 
> All the evidence in the world that men are getting marriage wrong lives in the comments section of the “dishes” post.
> 
> The “dishes” post that wasn’t really about dishes at all.


----------



## Ms. GP

marduk said:


> I could point at numerous studies that show that men are on average better at reading emotional cues than women are, they're just conditioned out of it.
> 
> And I don't find threatening violence funny, nor do I think insulting an entire gender aids your position in any way, all it does is insult yourself.
> 
> Your sense of smug superiority is showing.


Conditioned or not, they're not doing it. The end result is the same. Men on these threads complain they are not mind readers, and I agree with them. No big deal.

I guess we can agree to disagree on what's funny. Your poor wife must walk on egg shells.


----------



## Evinrude58

EleGirl said:


> What is it that your wife wants you to do that you need for her to tell you? (asking to get the basis of a discussion)


Everything.  Hence, I'm divorced.....

I think the things men need women to tell them are things a woman needs from their husband to meet their emotional needs. I don't think there's a whole lot that a husband can do other than try to be considerate, as far as dishes and clothes and basic housework. Certainly I was guilty of some disrespectful, lazy behavior on housework in my previous marriage. She was guilty of some major laziness and disrespect also. I didn't keep score. I just did what it took to make me happy and figured she'd do the same. I tried to do things to make her happy. Wasn't enough....... Sometimes enough doesn't exist.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> No one is required to agree with the author's philosophy on marriage. But the author himself knows his wife did not leave over just a glass. The glass was a part of a larger pattern.
> 
> The author's blog post, entitled "Of course it was about more than dirty dishes"...


How about this.

You guys all decide on WHAT this is really about, since it's obviously not about what he said it was about, it's about random other things that all mean that wives are hard done by by their clueless husbands or some such thing.

When you guys come to some kind of clear conclusion what the point is and have it actually stay put, let's have a clear and rational conversation about it.

Because this whole "here's this article, discuss" and bait and switch for meaning every time there's pushback on it is getting really tired.

And it is with some irony given that the issue is purported to be so obvious that it cannot clearly be stated.


----------



## Abc123wife

marduk said:


> None of that is said or even insinuated in the article.
> 
> In fact; quite the opposite. The stated position is that the sole issue is leaving the glass by the sink rather than putting it in the dishwasher.
> 
> In fact, the author seems to indicate that if hadn't left it out, he would still be married.
> 
> The rest of your statement is pure projection based on your own position.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you sure you read the article?

"But I remember my wife often saying how exhausting it was for her to have to tell me what to do all the time. It’s why the sexiest thing a man can say to his partner is “I got this,” and then take care of whatever needs taken care of.

I always reasoned: “If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.”

But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household."

I think what I stated was exactly what the article was about!


----------



## Marduk

Ms. GP said:


> Conditioned or not, they're not doing it. The end result is the same. Men on these threads complain they are not mind readers, and I agree with them. No big deal.
> 
> I guess we can agree to disagree on what's funny. Your poor wife must walk on egg shells.


Oh, that's right.

She lives in mortal terror of accidentally thretening to stab me (ha, ha).

That's our glass and sink issue.

"If only my husband would think it funny every time I chased him with a kitchen knife, our life would be so good! When he doesn't, he makes me all kinds of sad and alonely."


----------



## Marduk

Abc123wife said:


> Are you sure you read the article?
> 
> "But I remember my wife often saying how exhausting it was for her to have to tell me what to do all the time. It’s why the sexiest thing a man can say to his partner is “I got this,” and then take care of whatever needs taken care of.


The stated context of that quote was leaving the glass by the sink.



> I always reasoned: “If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.”
> 
> But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household."
> 
> I think what I stated was exactly what the article was about!


Hey I never claimed the guy wasn't a weenie.

In fact, quite the opposite.


----------



## Ms. GP

marduk said:


> Oh, that's right.
> 
> She lives in mortal terror of accidentally thretening to stab me (ha, ha).
> 
> That's our glass and sink issue.
> 
> "If only my husband would think it funny every time I chased him with a kitchen knife, our life would be so good! When he doesn't, he makes me all kinds of sad and alonely."


Have fun with that bro. I've got work to do. I'm out. It must be a fun head space to live in to see everything as a personal attack and a war between the genders.


----------



## Me Vietare

richie33 said:


> I am sure it's not. But that same man was most likely the same way while they were dating. A ring doesn't magically change a person.


It may not change them, but it sure as hell reveals them. Take sex; as soon as I said "I do," and she said "I won't." Frisky sex kitten before marriage, lazy fat cat after. It is the LD person who controls the relationship and don't they know it.


----------



## Abc123wife

marduk said:


> How about this.
> 
> You guys all decide on WHAT this is really about, since it's obviously not about what he said it was about, it's about random other things that all mean that wives are hard done by by their clueless husbands or some such thing.
> 
> When you guys come to some kind of clear conclusion what the point is and have it actually stay put, let's have a clear and rational conversation about it.
> 
> Because this whole "here's this article, discuss" and bait and switch for meaning every time there's pushback on it is getting really tired.
> 
> And it is with some irony given that the issue is purported to be so obvious that it cannot clearly be stated.


The ironic thing is that it is clearly stated what is about! You are one of the few not getting it and being nasty to others as you continue to show how much you don't get it!


----------



## Marduk

Ms. GP said:


> Have fun with that bro. I've got work to do. I'm out. It must be a fun head space to live in to see everything as a personal attack and a war between the genders.


LOL!

An ad hominem attack, straw dog arguement, and cartman's taking his ball and going home, all rolled up in one!


----------



## Marduk

Abc123wife said:


> The ironic thing us that it is clearly stated what is about! You are one of the few not getting it and being nasty to others as you continue to show how much you don't get it!


Oh?

Where in the article does it say that he was a hoarder? Or didn't help out around the house? Or that he was generally a douchy husband?

What it says is that he intentionally and willfully time and again left his glass by the sink instead of put it in the dishwasher because he didn't make the connection that by doing so, his wife felt alone and unloved.

And he should have put the glass away so that she wouldn't have felt that way, and maybe if he did, he would still be married.

And I really struggle how I've been nasty to anyone.

Well, except when threats of violence if someone disobeys is considered humour.


----------



## Ms. GP

marduk said:


> LOL!
> 
> An ad hominem attack, straw dog arguement, and cartman's taking his ball and going home, all rolled up in one!


More like stepping out of the drama triangle. Might wanna try it some time.

I really do have work to do. I'm actually a pharmacist. Which means I have about 50 untraceable poisons in my possession at all times. Mwah HA HA HA!!! Look out here I come hubby!!! > (Don't worry that was sarcasm MarduK)


----------



## wmn1

wow, I am out for a few days and it grew a little nasty.

BTW, all, I agree with Marduk here.


----------



## AliceA

marduk said:


> Tell me.
> 
> Everything else aside - is leaving a glass by the sink that you might use again unreasonable?
> 
> Nowhere does it say that he didn't help out around the house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Since he was using that as an example of a much larger issue, which I thought was quite obvious, I think to focus on the glass in his article and ignore his point would be a waste of time.


----------



## Marduk

breeze said:


> Since he was using that as an example of a much larger issue, which I thought was quite obvious, I think to focus on the glass in his article and ignore his point would be a waste of time.


OK, what's the larger issue?


----------



## Abc123wife

@marduk, I am starting to get this. Let me tell a little story and see if you see any connection to the discussion of this blog post. 

A few years ago my oldest son was taking a college short stories literature course. He was just 16 at the time (dual-enrolled). He was to read read Hemingway's White Elephant and write a short paper. My son is pretty brilliant in science and math. He's a great technical writer, but literature is not his strength! He read that story three times and still had NO clue what it was about. I read it and got it right away. Talking to him about the meaning of that story was like this discussion with you. He kept saying where are you reading that. It doesn't say that... But that is good and interesting writing sometimes. The author does not need to come straight out and give a bullet point list of the plot, the theme, the symbolism in the story. That would not be very interesting.

Now go read Hemingway's White Elephant and tell me what it means. I guarantee it does not spell out exactly what is happening and the symbolism and the innuendos. That doesn't mean that the story doesn't have meaning.

BTW, 7 years later my oldest is now working on his PhD in organic synthesis at one of the big 10 universities. So he is definitely bright, just not when it come to interpretation of literature!


----------



## Marduk

Abc123wife said:


> @marduk, I am starting to get this. Let me tell a little story and see if you see any connection to the discussion of this blog post.
> 
> A few years ago my oldest son was taking a college short stories literature course. He was just 16 at the time (dual-enrolled). He was to read read Hemingway's White Elephant and write a short paper. My son is pretty brilliant in science and math. He's a great technical writer, but literature is not his strength! He read that story three times and still had NO clue what it was about. I read it and got it right away. Talking to him about the meaning of that story was like this discussion with you. He kept saying where are you reading that. It doesn't say that... But that is good and interesting writing sometimes. The author does not need to come straight out and give a bullet point list of the plot, the theme, the symbolism in the story. That would not be very interesting.
> 
> Now go read Hemingway's White Elephant and tell me what it means. I guarantee it does not spell out exactly what is happening and the symbolism and the innuendos. That doesn't mean that the story doesn't have meaning.


I had a double minor in English lit and philosophy.

Does it show?

Are we criticizing the article based on the article, or using the article as a metaphor for something else?

I can surmise a totally different symantically accurate meaning from this article based upon my own conjecture than you may come up with.

Does that make my position valid?


----------



## ButtPunch

marduk said:


> OK, what's the larger issue?


and the sad thing is CWI is riddled with men who go above and beyond to meet their wifes needs. They load the dishwasher, rub feet, vacuum, watch the kids while their wives head to the bar to find some guy to plow. 

What a tightrope men have to balance these days. 

And still I hear nothing but crickets for the guys complaining about not getting enough domestic help from their wives. They get totally different advice from the women here.

I remember one comment said that he needed to inspire her to want to help out with the chores.

Complete double standard.

Two incompatible people is what we got here. Love chemicals make some people make really dumb choices. The end.


----------



## ne9907

I read this article and thought it was spot on!! If only I had been wiser 10 years ago


----------



## Wolf1974

Going to go home later and throw out all the glasses and replace them with Red and blue solo cups.


----------



## AliceA

Blossom Leigh said:


> You missed the point.
> 
> Clean/Tidy kitchen was important to her.
> 
> Sex/ Beauty is important to him.
> 
> Both should care what is important to the other.
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting how quick women want the man to "get her" but don't take a nano second to care what's important to him. I've seen it on this very thread, and I have been guilty when I didn't even realize it and I challenge all the women on here spouting off about the inadequacies of men to step up and self assess. Not all of the women on here are being inconsiderate of the important things to men, but many are. The hypocrisy is stunning. While you are holding your men to a high standard of caring what matters to you, you need to first hold yourself to a high standard of what is important to him. Just how contemptuous are you being and are you taking pause to assess the reasonableness of your contempt. Yes, we have all been through a lot, but it doesn't give us license to be hypocrites or rest on our laurels. Lets keep our side of the street clean Ladies.


I hold what matters to him as important. He hates it when the bin is emptied and a new bag isn't put in. The taking the rubbish bit out is important to me, and having to put a new bag in seems like it could be done by anyone, but I make sure to put the bag in straight away because it means he won't be annoyed next time he goes to the bin.

Not wanting to have someone tell you what underwear to wear is a different issue imo. It's not a "he wants sex and she ignores him issue". To me, underwear is highly personal. I'm not a huge fan of boxers, but DH wants to wear them and I've never asked him to change his choice because of my preferences. I think that would be highly inconsiderate and intrusive on my part.


----------



## Evinrude58

I think the larger issue is that women want their men to anticipate what they want without help, take care of their jobs and also run the household so their wives are not stressed by household duties or taking care of kids too much (this is the "MOTHERING" word that apparently drives women crazy, particularly with their husbands), look the other way when their wives are out on girl's night out and they're dressed in clothes that obviously are meant to attract men, and bring them flowers and rub their back when they get home.

It's about getting the splint out of their husband's eye and ignoring the log in theirs, and then knowing it and high-fiving their lady friends about it.

Not all women, just some.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breeze said:


> I hold what matters to him as important. He hates it when the bin is emptied and a new bag isn't put in. The taking the rubbish bit out is important to me, and having to put a new bag in seems like it could be done by anyone, but I make sure to put the bag in straight away because it means he won't be annoyed next time he goes to the bin.
> 
> Not wanting to have someone tell you what underwear to wear is a different issue imo. It's not a "he wants sex and she ignores him issue". To me, underwear is highly personal. I'm not a huge fan of boxers, but DH wants to wear them and I've never asked him to change his choice because of my preferences. I think that would be highly inconsiderate and intrusive on my part.


Marduks intended meaning was that sex and beauty are important to him, which is the point. He shared his view with his wife about what he prefers.

The blogger's wife shared with him what she prefers about the dishes. 

That was the parallel that was being drawn... He wasn't making it about you and how you would handle it.

My secondary comments were to the thread in general and for all women here to do a gut check on this issue. No more no less. I think that is important. If we are going to call out the men, it doesn't need to be from a place of hypocrisy.

So no offense breeze.. probably a poor choice of post combination on my part.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Marduks intended meaning was that sex and beauty are important to him, which is the point. He shared his view with his wife about what he prefers.
> 
> The blogger's wife shared with him what she prefers about the dishes.
> 
> That was the parallel that was being drawn... He wasn't making it about you and how you would handle it.
> 
> My secondary comments were to the thread in general and for all women here to do a gut check on this issue. No more no less. I think that is important. If we are going to call out the men, it doesn't need to be from a place of hypocrisy.
> 
> So no offense breeze.. probably a poor choice of post combination on my part.


My point is that we as free human beings can assign symbolic value anywhere we want.

I could assign symbolic value to any random thing. And it could become my 'thing' and have tremendous power over me. 

And I could demand that those who love me respect this thing and enable this thing and treat this thing the exact way I want this thing treated.

It could be underwear. My car. The toilet seat. The kitchen floor. My flat screen TV. My world of Warcraft account.

The thing doesn't matter. 

But that's the point: the thing doesn't matter. I have ascribed symbolic meaning to the externalized fascet of my environment. It's status now dominates my emotional landscape, and has power over me. And by extension, it has power over everyone that cares about me.

We see this kind of fetishism all the time. Classic cars, guns, purses, shoes, keeping up with the joneses. 

My assertion is that playing into that fetishism beyond simple enjoyment is playing into delusion and the attachment causes unhappiness.

And love is not allowing that. Love is saying "person who I love, love is not this glass." Or this car, or this purse. Love is an act.

Chasing the glass or the car or the purse or being devastated that someone doesn't share your delusion isn't going to help anyone do anything.

To those that get hung up on such things, I'd say put your life in context, and put value where it belongs. 

I used to care about how my house was decorated. I used to want to control it. But I care about the people who live in it more, so I let go of my need to have things my way.

Or perhaps my wife and children should have respected my need to live a spartan existence like my bachelor pad if they loved me?


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> OK, what's the larger issue?


You are having a lot of fun here pulling people's chains.. aren't you?

I'll bet you have something a lot more important to do.. like put that glass in the dishwasher instead of leaving it on the side of the since with the excuse 'I might use it later'. 

>


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> You are having a lot of fun here pulling people's chains.. aren't you?
> 
> I'll bet you have something a lot more important to do.. like put that glass in the dishwasher instead of leaving it on the side of the since with the excuse 'I might use it later'.
> 
> >


LOL... Kinda. 

But actually, I have a point here. I've been on the wrong end of this kind of glass/sink issue.

Like I said, even when I did most of the cooking and cleaning, there were still issues like this. So to say that one can extrapolate from the glass and sink issue that someone's not pulling their weight is a false assumption.

Because, as you say, it wasn't about the glass or the sink. It was about power.

And that, to me, is clearly what this article is about. The issue that he can't remember why it was a big deal to him at the time is a signpost for me.

Because it was about power.

Now, in this marriage, I am a total slob. I do virtually nothing around the house. My wife complains about this not at all as long as I'm not stupid or unreasonable about it.

Why?

Because we intentionally constructed and agreed to expectations that are reasonable. There is no passive aggressive symbolic meaning in any of the household jobs. I do my thing, she does her thing, and things get done.

My things have nothing to do with her things, and vice versa.

Now, in marriage #1, it didn't matter that I put far, far more effort into making her happy than she ever did me. One step out of line, big issue.

A simple dish or a pot left out would have made her vibrate with anger. There was no winning, because that was the game.

I think that's what some guys are picking up on. Just like some women are picking up on their husbands not lifting a finger around the house, and that's what it comes down to for them.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> My point is that we as free human beings can assign symbolic value anywhere we want.
> 
> I could assign symbolic value to any random thing. And it could become my 'thing' and have tremendous power over me.
> 
> And I could demand that those who love me respect this thing and enable this thing and treat this thing the exact way I want this thing treated.
> 
> It could be underwear. My car. The toilet seat. The kitchen floor. My flat screen TV. My world of Warcraft account.
> 
> The thing doesn't matter.
> 
> But that's the point: the thing doesn't matter. I have ascribed symbolic meaning to the externalized fascet of my environment. It's status now dominates my emotional landscape, and has power over me. And by extension, it has power over everyone that cares about me.
> 
> We see this kind of fetishism all the time. Classic cars, guns, purses, shoes, keeping up with the joneses.
> 
> My assertion is that playing into that fetishism beyond simple enjoyment is playing into delusion and the attachment causes unhappiness.
> 
> And love is not allowing that. Love is saying "person who I love, love is not this glass." Or this car, or this purse. Love is an act.
> 
> Chasing the glass or the car or the purse or being devastated that someone doesn't share your delusion isn't going to help anyone do anything.
> 
> To those that get hung up on such things, I'd say put your life in context, and put value where it belongs.
> 
> I used to care about how my house was decorated. I used to want to control it. But I care about the people who live in it more, so I let go of my need to have things my way.
> 
> Or perhaps my wife and children should have respected my need to live a spartan existence like my bachelor pad if they loved me?


Glad you expanded on that because it ties in nicely with what I've been saying... people choose what they attach their "angst" to and it can be adjusted at will. Most of what I hear is self inflicted angst.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Glad you expanded on that because it ties in nicely with what I've been saying... people choose what they attach their "angst" to and it can be adjusted at will. Most of what I hear is self inflicted angst.


Well, there's a whole other layer that could be in play as well.

Why do people attach symbolic meaning to this random thing? Why do they need to control their environment so much? Why do they fixate on random disorder?

Entropy is always increasing. Entropy always wins.

Are you going to be increasingly unhappy for your whole life?

Or is it that you assigning value to some fetish object makes you feel powerful? Because you force others to comply? A sense of superiority?


----------



## AliceA

Let me backtrack for a minute; I was tired when I initially responded and the underwear thing twanged against my personal boundaries. It's fine to have preferences about what your partner wears, just not to be an arse about it (not saying anyone was an arse).

I took the glass thing to be an example in order to discuss HOW he was thinking and reacting to matters she brought up as important. Instead of focusing on the glass, focus on the message. He was saying that he now thinks his pattern of thinking was wrong. 

Since he described his pattern of thought in that situation, apply that to all their interactions, and what you can have is one partner refusing to give any importance to the wishes of their spouse and coming up with arguments to justify it in all situations. This would make ANYONE feel unloved, regardless of gender.

I came in and got into that issue of what is a realistic and unrealistic request, and that seems decidedly pointless because it could go on forever.

If one spouse makes an effort and the other doesn't it's obviously an issue (or both not making an effort of course). Reducing this to arguments about glasses or gender is ridiculous.


----------



## EleGirl

Here is where I think the problem usually comes in.


If the other person's lack of ability to take responsibility means that I have to spend a huge percentage of my time and energy doing things that both spouses are responsible for, there is a problem.

(This can go for either gender, but I'm going to use 'he' for the other person for simplicity of discussion)

If he will not do any, or almost none, of the household chores and child care, that means that I have to do them.

Yes dishes do need to be cleaned since it is not healthy to eat off dishes with food on the from previous meals.

If the toilet and the floor below it is full of dried pee with dog hair stuck to it, it's a health hazard. 

If the floors need sweeping, again it can be a health hazard and a safety hazard depending on how much junk is on the floor.

If the trash needs to go out, take it out. Keeping trash in the house is a health hazard, draws insects and rodents.

Why should one spouse, who has done the majority of the housework, have to tell the other one, "Please clean the toilet, it's filthy." ?

It makes no sense that an adult who responsibility it is to take care of their own home and children needs to be told those to do them. IMO, two adults living in a home should be 100% capable of splitting the work without one having to constantly ask the other to do routine things like that.

One spouse basically ignoring what needs to be done so that the other will do it.. or have to beg and plead with them to do it is not cool at all.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> Here is where I think the problem usually comes in.
> 
> 
> If the other person's lack of ability to take responsibility means that I have to spend a huge percentage of my time and energy doing things that both spouses are responsible for, there is a problem.
> 
> (This can go for either gender, but I'm going to use 'he' for the other person for simplicity of discussion)
> 
> If he will not do any, or almost none, of the household chores and child care, that means that I have to do them.
> 
> Yes dishes do need to be cleaned since it is not healthy to eat off dishes with food on the from previous meals.
> 
> If the toilet and the floor below it is full of dried pee with dog hair stuck to it, it's a health hazard.
> 
> If the floors need sweeping, again it can be a health hazard and a safety hazard depending on how much junk is on the floor.
> 
> If the trash needs to go out, take it out. Keeping trash in the house is a health hazard, draws insects and rodents.
> 
> Why should one spouse, who has done the majority of the housework, have to tell the other one, "Please clean the toilet, it's filthy." ?
> 
> It makes no sense that an adult who responsibility it is to take care of their own home and children needs to be told those to do them. IMO, two adults living in a home should be 100% capable of splitting the work without one having to constantly ask the other to do routine things like that.
> 
> One spouse basically ignoring what needs to be done so that the other will do it.. or have to beg and plead with them to do it is not cool at all.


Genders aside, if both people put an equal amount of effort and time in, and one person demands to have it one way and the other comply, who's right?

Or if the thing at issue is totally minor from a household operations perspective, and yet the other person assigns massive artificial meaning to it, should the other person comply?


----------



## NobodySpecial

OpenWindows said:


> I saw this on Facebook recently. And it's so true. I was a walkaway wife, because my husband could never understand this.
> 
> Especially the idea that it was unfair for him to say that she should just tell him what to do, and he would do it, because it still lays all of the responsibility on her... So true.


And really, they only do about 25% of the stuff because 75% does not "touch down" or is not a "big deal".


----------



## BetrayedDad

breeze said:


> Not wanting to have someone tell you what underwear to wear is a different issue imo. It's not a "he wants sex and she ignores him issue". To me, underwear is highly personal. I'm not a huge fan of boxers, but DH wants to wear them and I've never asked him to change his choice because of my preferences. I think that would be highly inconsiderate and intrusive on my part.


But no one is asking you to switch to a thong. Just color coordinate. If you loved and respected your husband wouldn't you just match the top to the bottom? It would have zero impact on your life and make him immensely happy!

Or is that as STUPID as a glass by the sink metaphor....


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> LOL... Kinda.
> 
> But actually, I have a point here. I've been on the wrong end of this kind of glass/sink issue.
> 
> Like I said, even when I did most of the cooking and cleaning, there were still issues like this. So to say that one can extrapolate from the glass and sink issue that someone's not pulling their weight is a false assumption.
> 
> Because, as you say, it wasn't about the glass or the sink. It was about power.
> 
> And that, to me, is clearly what this article is about. The issue that he can't remember why it was a big deal to him at the time is a signpost for me.
> 
> Because it was about power.
> 
> Now, in this marriage, I am a total slob. I do virtually nothing around the house. My wife complains about this not at all as long as I'm not stupid or unreasonable about it.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because we intentionally constructed and agreed to expectations that are reasonable. There is no passive aggressive symbolic meaning in any of the household jobs. I do my thing, she does her thing, and things get done.
> 
> My things have nothing to do with her things, and vice versa.
> 
> Now, in marriage #1, it didn't matter that I put far, far more effort into making her happy than she ever did me. One step out of line, big issue.
> 
> A simple dish or a pot left out would have made her vibrate with anger. There was no winning, because that was the game.
> 
> I think that's what some guys are picking up on. Just like some women are picking up on their husbands not lifting a finger around the house, and that's what it comes down to for them.


Is your current wife a SAH wife? Or does she have a job and work about as many hours as you do?

I agree that in some cases it comes down to a point where the one complaining about a glass left by the sink or a few pots left out is way out of line and it's a power struggle.

This is not an gender thing either. There are plenty of men who set up unreasonable expectations, often as silly as literally leaving a glass by the sink. The attempt to make this a gender issue on this thread is part of the problem I see with the thread.


----------



## NobodySpecial

BetrayedDad said:


> But no one is asking you to switch to a thong. Just color coordinate. If you loved and respected your husband wouldn't you just match the top to the bottom?



Would it actually make you FEEL respected?


----------



## BetrayedDad

NobodySpecial said:


> Would it actually make you FEEL respected?


YES


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> Is your current wife a SAH wife? Or does she have a job and work about as many hours as you do?
> 
> I agree that in some cases it comes down to a point where the one complaining about a glass left by the sink or a few pots left out is way out of line and it's a power struggle.


She now works part-time, and we have a cleaning lady to fill the balance of the hours she now spends working.

Which I was happy to get, because who wants to spend their life cleaning?

Like I said, I do the vast minority of the cooking, cleaning, laundry. By her agreement.

What I do instead is the vast majority of the yard work, shovelling snow, keeping the cars going (including gas and carwashes), more than half of the kids homework, and all the bbqing. Essentially anything inside the house is her domain (and basically her call) and anything outside of it is mine.

Blue job and pink jobs. 

But the critical point is -- there is no symbolic meaning. I don't feel loved because I have clean underwear. She doesn't feel loved because our lawn looks nice. 

It's **** we have to do to keep the house running, and stuff we have to get out of the way to end up next to each other in bed that night. We had to learn the hard way that all of that stuff is inherently pointless, even thought it has to get done.


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> Genders aside, if both people put an equal amount of effort and time in, and one person demands to have it one way and the other comply, who's right?
> 
> Or if the thing at issue is totally minor from a household operations perspective, and yet the other person assigns massive artificial meaning to it, should the other person comply?


In these types of cases, the couple needs to get into some serious communications. They need to work this out in a way that is satisfactory to both of them. If they cannot, then someone, or both, are not putting the marriage first.

Often times couples in good marriages compromise. Sometimes he does a thing her way, sometime she will do something else his way. And sometimes they find a middle ground.


----------



## NobodySpecial

BetrayedDad said:


> YES


Then I'd do it.


----------



## richie33

soccermom2three said:


> Huh?
> 
> My husband and I didn't live together before marriage. There are things you don't know about another person until you do, lol.


So you never went over his house before marrying him? If there was a huge pile of dishes in his sink and lived like a hoarder would you not think it would continue after the I do's?


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> In these types of cases, the couple needs to get into some serious communications. They need to work this out in a way that is satisfactory to both of them. If they cannot, then someone, or both, are not putting the marriage first.
> 
> Often times couples in good marriages compromise. Sometimes he does a thing her way, sometime she will do something else his way. And sometimes they find a middle ground.


Basically, our rule is 'you can either ask me to do something, or tell me how you think it should be done -- but not both.'


----------



## BetrayedDad

NobodySpecial said:


> Then I'd do it.


Fine you're right not really, but porn star sex definitely would.


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> She now works part-time, and we have a cleaning lady to fill the balance of the hours she now spends working.
> 
> Which I was happy to get, because who wants to spend their life cleaning?
> 
> Like I said, I do the vast minority of the cooking, cleaning, laundry. By her agreement.
> 
> What I do instead is the vast majority of the yard work, shovelling snow, keeping the cars going (including gas and carwashes), more than half of the kids homework, and all the bbqing. Essentially anything inside the house is her domain (and basically her call) and anything outside of it is mine.
> 
> Blue job and pink jobs.
> 
> But the critical point is -- there is no symbolic meaning. I don't feel loved because I have clean underwear. She doesn't feel loved because our lawn looks nice.
> 
> It's **** we have to do to keep the house running, and stuff we have to get out of the way to end up next to each other in bed that night. We had to learn the hard way that all of that stuff is inherently pointless, even thought it has to get done.


It sounds like the two of you have done a good job in handling this issue.

For me, it became an issue when I had to do 100% of breadwinning, household and child care. So I think my experiences are outside what this thread is about. (Eventhough I was sort of called selfish)

If it were only about think like not putting a glass in the dishwasher or leaving some pots out, I'd be doing a jig.


----------



## AliceA

marduk said:


> But the critical point is -- there is no symbolic meaning. I don't feel loved because I have clean underwear. She doesn't feel loved because our lawn looks nice.
> 
> It's **** we have to do to keep the house running, and stuff we have to get out of the way to end up next to each other in bed that night. We had to learn the hard way that all of that stuff is inherently pointless, even thought it has to get done.


I agree. I don't feel loved because he made the bed yesterday, and he doesn't feel loved because I put a bag in the bin, but we both have an absence of irritation that would be present if one or both of us didn't bother.

Not being annoyed about something is great and should not be assigned so little value. The requirement for happy happy joy joy feelings dominates too many conversations imo.


----------



## EleGirl

BetrayedDad said:


> But no one is asking you to switch to a thong. Just color coordinate. If you loved and respected your husband wouldn't you just match the top to the bottom? It would have zero impact on your life and make him immensely happy!
> 
> Or is that as STUPID as a glass by the sink metaphor....


If my husband asked me to wear matching bra and panties... and it meant that he found me sexy and desirable... yea I'd do that... it would be fun.. I'd ask him to buy me some that he would like too. 

To me that's part of flirting and having sexy fun with my husband who is my lover too.


----------



## ButtPunch

richie33 said:


> So you never went over his house before marrying him? If there was a huge pile of dishes in his sink and lived like a hoarder would you not think it would continue after the I do's?


That's the rub. Initially, women aren't attracted to these beta orbiters falling all over them. They push him away and go marry the guy that won't put his glass in the dishwasher. 

SMDH


----------



## RClawson

Sorry but I could not continue to wade through anymore of the "He says, She Says" yammering. This article pretty much sums up my thoughts.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/scientists-one-behavior-kiss-death-161900148.html


----------



## BetrayedDad

FrenchFry said:


> Lol, this is why I don't jump to my husbands cleanliness requirements. Because it's a "not really, " or A **** test! A male **** test in the wild! So stoked I found it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well in all fairness she was talking about me personally. 

Plenty of clean freak husbands and slob wives out their arguing about dirty dishes too. Or underwear fetish spouses, etc. 

If it's REALLY about the glass then the spouse is mentally ill.

If it's not, then stop blaming the dishes and using stupid metaphors and address the real issue.


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> Genders aside, if both people put an equal amount of effort and time in, and one person demands to have it one way and the other comply, who's right?
> 
> Or if the thing at issue is totally minor from a household operations perspective, and yet the other person assigns massive artificial meaning to it, should the other person comply?


This is not the situation described by the author.

But to take your questions at face value...

Generally, if it's a fairly minor operation but it has major significance to my partner, I'll do it his way. Why not? I love him and want to make him happy, and if that means going three steps out of my way to put the book in the "right" place on the shelf, then no problem. I would hope he'd do the same for me.

If he is repeatedly making these demands of me, and he's not returning the favor, THAT'S when we have a power struggle. That's when we need to decide if we're keeping the proper balance in the relationship.

I think you can agree to do these things for each other, or agree to deal with them yourselves, and either way is fine, as long as you agree. The problems start when someone feels they're doing all of these things for their partner and not getting them back... when it really DOESN'T go both ways.


----------



## Ms. GP

ButtPunch said:


> That's the rub. Initially, women aren't attracted to these beta orbiters falling all over them. They push him away and go marry the guy that won't put his glass in the dishwasher.
> 
> SMDH


No here's the rub. Men who spend way too much time in CWI think if they clean up after themselves, they will be seen as beta instead of a self sufficient adult.


----------



## OpenWindows

Ms. GP said:


> No here's the rub. Men who spend way too much time in CWI think if they clean up after themselves, they will be seen as beta instead of a self sufficient adult.


Beta, my a**. I see a guy who cleans as responsible, and I think it's hot when a guy can cook.

I always thought alphas were men who handled themselves.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

RClawson said:


> Sorry but I could not continue to wade through anymore of the "He says, She Says" yammering. This article pretty much sums up my thoughts.
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/scientists-one-behavior-kiss-death-161900148.html


My thoughts exactly....

and Gottman is quoted in that article


----------



## Blossom Leigh

BetrayedDad said:


> Well in all fairness she was talking about me personally.
> 
> Plenty of clean freak husbands and slob wives out their arguing about dirty dishes too. Or underwear fetish spouses, etc.
> 
> If it's REALLY about the glass then the spouse is mentally ill.
> 
> If it's not, then stop blaming the dishes and using stupid metaphors and address the real issue.


Amen Brother and SOMETIMES it's not going to be about what the *woman* THINKS it's about even after she decides to finally be direct.

Asking a man to be responsible does not always mean that responsibility belongs on him.


----------



## BetrayedDad

FrenchFry said:


> Here is the funny thing though (at least what I found funny)
> 
> NobodySpecial asked you if matching bra and panties would make you feel respected.
> 
> You said YES!
> 
> then you said no, not quite porn star sex would.


My "YES" was tongue in cheek so I did mean to be funny that's why I purposely contradicted myself.


Consider this:

If it's really NOT about the dishes like you all claim. They why would putting the dish away make a REAL difference?

She'll just find something else to be resentful about. Instead ADDRESS the underline cause not the stupid metaphor.

I.E. loss of attraction, lack of affection, etc. whatever the REAL problem is. Spouses in deep love don't give a sh!t about dirty dishes.


----------



## Evinrude58

betrayeddad said:


> my "yes" was tongue in cheek so i did mean to be funny that's why i purposely contradicted myself.
> 
> 
> Consider this:
> 
> If it's really not about the dishes like you all claim. They why would doing putting the dish away make a real difference?
> 
> She'll just find something else to be resentful about. Instead address the underline cause not the stupid metaphor.
> 
> I.e. Loss of attraction, lack of affection, etc. Whatever the real problem is. Spouses in deep love don't give a sh!t about dirty dishes.


indeed!


----------



## soccermom2three

richie33 said:


> So you never went over his house before marrying him? If there was a huge pile of dishes in his sink and lived like a hoarder would you not think it would continue after the I do's?


He lived with his parents up until 5 months before we married.


----------



## Ms. GP

FWIW, @marduk I'd give my left ovary to only have to work part time and have a house cleaner.

My husband and I both work full time, have two small kids, and our house is disgusting. Most of the time it doesn't bother me, but here lately a little order in the mountain of chaos that is my life would be nice.


----------



## soccermom2three

ButtPunch said:


> PEA chemicals long gone?


I'm still attracted to my husband after 33 years. Why do you think that is?


----------



## Evinrude58

soccermom2three said:


> He lived with his parents up until 5 months before we married.


Heh, Heh......

That's kinda funny. And then with the comments from several about not wanting to "mother" the husband....


----------



## ButtPunch

soccermom2three said:


> I'm still attracted to my husband after 33 years. Why do you think that is?


That's because you really love him. The mature kind of love.


----------



## soccermom2three

ButtPunch said:


> That's because you really love him


But are there reasons I really love him?

I mean, it's not like a magical fairy wand went poof on my head or an arrow from cupid's bow struck me in the heart.


----------



## OpenWindows

BetrayedDad said:


> My "YES" was tongue in cheek so I did mean to be funny that's why I purposely contradicted myself.
> 
> 
> Consider this:
> 
> If it's really NOT about the dishes like you all claim. They why would putting the dish away make a REAL difference?
> 
> She'll just find something else to be resentful about. Instead ADDRESS the underline cause not the stupid metaphor.
> 
> I.E. loss of attraction, lack of affection, etc. whatever the REAL problem is. Spouses in deep love don't give a sh!t about dirty dishes.


But that is what the author is saying! She told him what she was feeling, and he wrote it off as irrational, and instead only focused on the glass. So her issues were not handled, and she left, and he regrets not listening. She told him, "When you do this, it makes me feel..." And he thought to himself "That's dumb, it's just a glass.". So he ignored the feelings she expressed because they didn't make sense to him. He was focusing on the metaphor, and willfully ignoring the underlying issue she was trying to communicate, because he didn't want to hear negative things about himself. 

This article by itself is a small-picture kind of thing. The bigger picture is better illustrated when you read a few more of his pieces.


----------



## ButtPunch

OpenWindows said:


> But that is what the author is saying! She told him what she was feeling, and he wrote it off as irrational, and instead only focused on the glass. So her issues were not handled, and she left, and he regrets not listening. She told him, "When you do this, it makes me feel..." And he thought to himself "That's dumb, it's just a glass.". So he ignored the feelings she expressed because they didn't make sense to him.
> 
> This article by itself is a small-picture kind of thing. The bigger picture is better illustrated when you read a few more of his pieces.


What I think BD is saying is, if he would have put that dish in the diswasher then she would have left because the trash wasn't taken out. She would find something. Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## AliceA

I think spouses in deep love care about "dirty dishes" (yes, I know, just an example, which I've stolen), but instead of it being a big issue it's generally a small one. If it was an issue that continually raised it's ugly head, chipping away over many years, then that's what might've eroded what could've been deep love. Depends on each relationship imo. Could be arguing about which came first, the chicken or the egg. Did they fall out of love because of those issues, or did those issues become issues because they fell out of love?


----------



## OpenWindows

ButtPunch said:


> What I think BD is saying is, if he would have put that dish in the diswasher then she would have left because the trash wasn't taken out. She would find something. Correct me if I'm wrong.


You're mostly correct. The author is saying she would have left anyway, because she felt disrespected and he refused to acknowledge it, and instead he hid behind the excuse of "Its just a glass". She wasn't finding something just for the sake of finding it... she was venting because he was willfully ignoring her and writing her off.

When she said "I feel disrespected.", he said "Irrational woman, that can't be true. Don't you know I'm a nice guy?". His piece on thinking his wife was irrational was very interesting to me.


----------



## EleGirl

BetrayedDad said:


> My "YES" was tongue in cheek so I did mean to be funny that's why I purposely contradicted myself.
> 
> 
> Consider this:
> 
> If it's really NOT about the dishes like you all claim. They why would putting the dish away make a REAL difference?
> 
> She'll just find something else to be resentful about. Instead ADDRESS the underline cause not the stupid metaphor.
> 
> I.E. loss of attraction, lack of affection, etc. whatever the REAL problem is. Spouses in deep love don't give a sh!t about dirty dishes.


To be clear, it was the author who used the metaphor of a glass he left by the sink. We have nothing from her about the situation, what he wanted and what she felt, thought, did, did not do.

He says that what she wanted was:


I always reasoned: “If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.”

But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household.

She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management.

I wish I could remember what seemed so unreasonable to me about that at the time.


----------



## ButtPunch

OpenWindows said:


> You're mostly correct. The author is saying she would have left anyway, because she felt disrespected and he refused to acknowledge it, and instead he hid behind the excuse of "Its just a glass". She wasn't finding something just for the sake of finding it... she was venting because he was willfully ignoring her and writing her off.


The negatives outweighed the positives and she left.

Two incompatible people. 

Good thing she left. Piling up resentment and anger is a crummy way to live. Would also suck big ones for him too.


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Amen Brother and SOMETIMES it's not going to be about what the *woman* THINKS it's about even after she decides to finally be direct.
> 
> Asking a man to be responsible does not always mean that responsibility belongs on him.


Nor does it mean that it does not belong to him.

What household responsibilities belong to a man vs what belongs to a woman? (assuming that they both work full time).

Do they both have responsibility for their own home and children?


----------



## Ms. GP

OpenWindows said:


> You're mostly correct. The author is saying she would have left anyway, because she felt disrespected and he refused to acknowledge it, and instead he hid behind the excuse of "Its just a glass". She wasn't finding something just for the sake of finding it... she was venting because he was willfully ignoring her and writing her off.


I agree. Be careful of the hill you wish to die on. Mabye the glass wouldn't have led to the trash and so on...(metaphorically speaking) But instead he chose to dig in his heels instead of appearing weak, and now he's all alone.


----------



## OpenWindows

ButtPunch said:


> The negatives outweighed the positives and she left.
> 
> Two incompatible people.
> 
> Good thing she left. Piling up resentment and anger is a crummy way to live. Would also suck big ones for him too.


No doubt.

He says he wishes he respected her feelings even when he didn't understand them. That he had no right to tell her how she should feel, because her life experiences belonged to her and he didn't get to modify them to suit his own feelings.


----------



## jld

BD, are you blaming her for not being in love? Am I reading you wrong?


----------



## EleGirl

Evinrude58 said:


> Heh, Heh......
> 
> That's kinda funny. And then with the comments from several about not wanting to "mother" the husband....


To be clear, it was ONE woman who said that her husband lived at home with his bother before they married.

That has zero to do with other women who have stated that they do not want to mother their husband. I know that in my case, I married men who had lived on their own over years. I am sure that many of the women here did the same thing.

Why do you extrapolate the experience of one woman here to apply to all women posting here?


----------



## EleGirl

soccermom2three said:


> I'm still attracted to my husband after 33 years. Why do you think that is?


Because he still treats you with love and respect? 

Oh snap.. I guess that's how it works.

:grin2:


----------



## BetrayedDad

> I always reasoned: “If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.”
> 
> But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household.
> 
> She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management.
> 
> I wish I could remember what seemed so unreasonable to me about that at the time.



Let me help remind you then sir:

There is this thing in a relationship called "communication" and it is very important.

Now when one spouse needs help, then the other should communicate that as we have not evolved enough to be able to READ MINDS. 

It is very reasonable for one spouse to ask for help and the other to oblige. That is how we function in our society WITH WORDS.

It is NOT REASONABLE to expect a spouse to JUST KNOW that she doesn't want the dish there. 

It is NOT REASONABLE to expect a spouse TO WANT to want to do dishes when he really doesn't give a sh!t.

It is NOT REASONABLE to try to control your spouse and turn them into someone they are not (eg someone who NEEDS to have a clean sink like you).

This spouse was "GLAD" to have helped anyway he could have upon any request received and for that to not good enough makes your spouse a LUNATIC. 

You women comparing this guy to your lazy husbands who by contrast REFUSED to help you verbally should be ashamed. You know who you are.

He committed no crime except for being too damn nice. This poor bastard was put through the blame shift wringer HARD. I pity his delusional mentality. 

HE should of left HER. Does anybody here still think we are talking about stupid dishes?!?


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Here's a thought:
> 
> _"I predict that any man who doesn’t understand the dish metaphor, OR feels offended and reacts defensively to it as if I believe wives’ or women’s feelings are somehow more important than husbands’ or men’s, also doesn’t participate actively in his marriage.
> 
> It likely means that when his wife tells him that something he does or doesn’t do hurts her, he dismisses it as her being “irrational.” And because he does that, she feels abandoned and alone in her marriage. Wives who feel abandoned and alone in their marriages will eventually do one of three things: Have sex with other men, leave their husbands, or both.
> 
> Deny that at your peril."_


I predict that any woman who agrees with the dish metaphor thinks it is fine to request anything she wants from her husband. No matter how frivolous and unreasonable it is. That if asked to jump, the husband should ask 'how high' while on the way up.

It likely means that when the husband explains that her request is unreasonable, she dismisses it as him just being lazy and unloving. And since she views him as being lazy and unloving, she is no longer attracted to him and rejects him sexually. Husbands who are denied sex eventually do one of three things: Have sex with other women, leave their wives or both.

Deny that at your peril
:laugh:


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> He committed no crime except for being too damn nice. This poor bastard was put through the blame shift wringer HARD. I pity his delusional mentality.


lol...relax.

Maybe you're right but I'll tell you something about divorcing people...they almost never agree on what they got divorced over.

If you ask my ex, he'll tell you that he was blindsided by divorce and that he was the perfect husband and I just wanted to date again.

However, if you ask me, I could tell you years of serious issues that I had finally culminating in me asking regularly for an amicable divorce for the last 3 years of our marriage.

I felt like I was communicating...maybe he did too. But neither one of us was compatible with the other and we both heard what we heard.

I take this blog with a grain of salt because in reality, I know many, many divorced couples who would give you blatantly different stories about the reasons behind the marriage falling apart. You can't trust one person's version of causality.

Like I said, sometimes a glass by the sink is simply the snowflake that starts the avalanche for a woman who's at her absolute limit.


----------



## OpenWindows

Betrayed Dad...

So you wouldn't mind if your wife only cooked dinner when specifically asked, only washed your clothes when specifically asked, and only had sex when you initiated it?

After all, she'll gladly comply, so long as you ask... :wink2:


----------



## Evinrude58

EleGirl said:


> To be clear, it was ONE woman who said that her husband lived at home with his bother before they married.
> 
> That has zero to do with other women who have stated that they do not want to mother their husband. I know that in my case, I married men who had lived on their own over years. I am sure that many of the women here did the same thing.
> 
> Why do you extrapolate the experience of one woman here to apply to all women posting here?


I didn't at all. I just thought it was funny that lots of wives seem to hate "mothering" their husbands, and I found it ironic that this one went from mom to wife directly. Seemed like a good way to guearantee this H would probably want to be taken care of, aka "mothered".

I'm thinking a man would love a lot of so called mothering from their wives. I think that one of the love languages is doing things for the person... Seems a lot of women these days resent doing a darn thing for their husbands and want everything under the sun done for them. No bearing in this thread, just an observation of mine. 
I see a lot of selfish women out there that hide their disgust with doing any housework under the "mothering" umbrella.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

> It is NOT REASONABLE to expect a spouse to JUST KNOW that she doesn't want the dish there.


It's not reasonable to expect a supposedly fully functional adult to just well ... know that the proper place to put clean dishes is where the clean dishes go?



> It is NOT REASONABLE to expect a spouse TO WANT to want to do dishes when he really doesn't give a sh!t.


It's NOT REASONABLE to expect a spouse TO WANT to have sex (including sex act X, Y, or Z) or wear matching underwear when she doesn't really give a $h!t. And yet ... 



> It is NOT REASONABLE to try to control your spouse and turn them into someone they are not (eg someone who NEEDS to have a clean sink like you).


It is NOT REASONABLE to try and control your spouse and turn them into someone they are not (IE someone who NEEDS to have blow jobs daily like you.)



> This spouse was "GLAD" to have helped anyway he could have upon any request received and for that to not good enough then your spouse is a LUNATIC.


This wife was glad to have sex when you asked, but the fact you had to ask made it not good enough she should simply know. I wonder if he's a LUNATIC.




> You women hear comparing this guy to your lazy husbands who by contrast REFUSED to help you verbally should be ashamed.


You hear men comparing this woman to your wife who REFUSED sex, you should be ashamed. 

.............


Why when the conversation is about sex and the complainer is male is the very same attitude tolerated hell, if not sympathized with or encouraged, but when it's a female complaining about well ... basically anything, she's clearly insane?

Why do we recommend books around here like Five Love Languages and His Needs/Her Needs if we don't indeed see male and female needs as different but equivalent?

Oh, wait, no, they aren't she's crazy, just go dark triad red-pill alpha male on her. Abuse her, she secretly wants you to. Flirt with or threaten to sleep with other women, her being jealous is good for your relationship. Right, carry on.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I predict that any woman who agrees with the dish metaphor thinks it is fine to request anything she wants from her husband. No matter how frivolous and unreasonable it is. That if asked to jump, the husband should ask 'how high' while on the way up.
> 
> It likely means that when the husband explains that her request is unreasonable, she dismisses it as him just being lazy and unloving. And since she views him as being lazy and unloving, she is no longer attracted to him and rejects him sexually. Husbands who are denied sex eventually do one of three things: Have sex with other women, leave their wives or both.
> 
> Deny that at your peril
> :laugh:


And if she doesn't care, because she does not feel loved, anyway?

The author regrets his actions. He does care. But too late.


----------



## Starstarfish

OpenWindows said:


> Betrayed Dad...
> 
> So you wouldn't mind if your wife only cooked dinner when specifically asked, only washed your clothes when specifically asked, and only had sex when you initiated it?
> 
> After all, she'll gladly comply, so long as you ask... :wink2:


Possibly on the first two, hell no on the last. A wife not initiating sex is as bad as her not having any with you at all. If it isn't your idea on your own every once in a while, clearly how much do you care about him or the relationship?

Oh ... wait ...


----------



## BetrayedDad

OpenWindows said:


> Betrayed Dad...
> 
> So you wouldn't mind if your wife only cooked dinner when specifically asked, only washed your clothes when specifically asked, and only had sex when you initiated it?
> 
> After all, she'll gladly comply, so long as you ask...


My exwife wasn't my maid. 

I did my own laundry when we were married and her idea of cooking was microwaving frozen chicken nuggets. And I did have to initiate the once a month she would agree to.

Some women suck too. It's not always the men. Maybe this guy's wife is just a b!tch. The end.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> And if she doesn't care, because she does not feel loved, anyway?
> 
> The author regrets his actions. He does care. But too late.


Huh! She doesn't care about what?


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Huh! She doesn't care about what?


She does not care if he leaves. Why would she, if she does not feel loved by him?


----------



## jld

BetrayedDad said:


> My exwife wasn't my maid.
> 
> I did my own laundry when we were married and her idea of cooking was microwaving frozen chicken nuggets. And I did have to initiate the once a month she would agree to.
> 
> Some women suck too. It's not always the men. Maybe this guy's wife is just a b!tch. The end.


So her leaving was a blessing to you. Right?


----------



## Duguesclin

Starstarfish said:


> Possibly on the first two, hell no on the last. A wife not initiating sex is as bad as her not having any with you at all. If it isn't your idea on your own every once in a while, clearly how much do you care about him or the relationship?
> 
> Oh ... wait ...


Having sex is better than not having sex, regardless of who initiates it. By being too picky you might end up with nothing.


----------



## EleGirl

Evinrude58 said:


> I didn't at all. I just thought it was funny that lots of wives seem to hate "mothering" their husbands, and I found it ironic that this one went from mom to wife directly.  Seemed like a good way to guearantee this H would probably want to be taken care of, aka "mothered".
> 
> I'm thinking a man would love a lot of so called mothering from their wives. I think that one of the love languages is doing things for the person... Seems a lot of women these days resent doing a darn thing for their husbands and want everything under the sun done for them. No bearing in this thread, just an observation of mine.
> I see a lot of selfish women out there that hide their disgust with doing any housework under the "mothering" umbrella.


There is a huge difference between a woman doing things for her husband out of love.. 'acts of service' is what I think it is called.

That's quite a bit different from being married to a man who acts like a 13 year old towards his wife and household responsibilities. Surely I don't have to explain the difference.

I know a lot of married women. They do what could be called acts of service for their husbands all the time. The husbands do the same for them.

I know one, only one, who falls into what you describe. She did divorce her husband and he is slowly seeing how lucky he is for that.


----------



## Marduk

Ms. GP said:


> No here's the rub. Men who spend way too much time in CWI think if they clean up after themselves, they will be seen as beta instead of a self sufficient adult.


Oh, snap, somebody's back in the drama triangle.

I thought you had work to do?


----------



## OpenWindows

BetrayedDad said:


> My exwife wasn't my maid.
> 
> I did my own laundry when we were married and her idea of cooking was microwaving frozen chicken nuggets. And I did have to initiate the once a month she would agree to.
> 
> Some women suck too. It's not always the men. Maybe this guy's wife is just a b!tch. The end.


Maybe she is a b****. But in this case, he doesn't seem to think so. He openly states that he was "a s***** husband" and he should have listened to her. It doesn't apply to all marriages, but it could have saved his, and he wishes he'd done it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> She does not care if he leaves. Why would she, if she does not feel loved by him?


At that point I think he is glad he left crazy town. Not sure it matters what she thinks about him leaving.


----------



## EleGirl

BetrayedDad said:


> My exwife wasn't my maid.
> 
> I did my own laundry when we were married and her idea of cooking was microwaving frozen chicken nuggets. And I did have to initiate the once a month she would agree to.
> 
> Some women suck too. It's not always the men. Maybe this guy's wife is just a b!tch. The end.


Not one woman (or man) on this thread has said that men are always in the wrong. So why are you taking it that way?


----------



## Starstarfish

> Some women suck too. It's not always the men.


And it's not always the women. 

And when women tell you something bothers us sometimes we aren't just "picking something that isn't really the issue" or "just making an excuse to want to leave" because Julia Roberts told us to. Sometimes when we say something bothers us, we are telling the truth. 

And you can decide our request is "insane" or we are a LUNATIC, but clearly, the relationship has a serious issue if we are that far apart about things. But the constant default idea that when a woman and a man disagree that the woman is clearly mentally ill is beyond. Hell, we have a boatload of armchair psychiatrists on here who will ever diagnose that crazy, evil b!+ch wife for you for free. She's clearly BPD, it's hopeless, leave her, it will never get better. 

In any other case someone who constantly asked you, "What is this fight really about?" or constantly questioned the validity of your opinion and inferred it was insane would be called out for gaslighting you and showing clear signs of being BPD themselves. Yet seems basically the default position a lot of the time. 

And then the accusation will be made that you didn't clearly communicate what you meant to him. Well, I mean, I know you -said- what bothered you, but ... no reasonable person would be bothered by that, so ... no, he didn't listen. So that doesn't really count as communicating. It only counts if what you are saying would be seen as "reasonable."


----------



## Marduk

breeze said:


> I think spouses in deep love care about "dirty dishes" (yes, I know, just an example, which I've stolen), but instead of it being a big issue it's generally a small one. If it was an issue that continually raised it's ugly head, chipping away over many years, then that's what might've eroded what could've been deep love. Depends on each relationship imo. Could be arguing about which came first, the chicken or the egg. Did they fall out of love because of those issues, or did those issues become issues because they fell out of love?


If me leaving glasses out could chip away at our relationship after everything we've been through together, I'd have found that out long ago.

Because our relationship would be meaningless.


----------



## jld

I really don't understand why it matters who initiates.


----------



## Fozzy

Late to the game. I just read it. My takeaway was not that it was about dishes. It was just a guy using his failed marriage as a cautionary tale that we all need to treat our spouses the way they want to be treated. It's not about men supplicating themselves to their wives. And it doesn't mean women need to supplicate themselves either.

It's about doing stuff that maybe doesn't come naturally to you because it makes your spouse feel good.

What's wrong with that?


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> To be clear, it was the author who used the metaphor of a glass he left by the sink. We have nothing from her about the situation, what he wanted and what she felt, thought, did, did not do.
> 
> He says that what she wanted was:
> 
> 
> I always reasoned: “If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.”
> 
> But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household.
> 
> She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management.
> 
> I wish I could remember what seemed so unreasonable to me about that at the time.


I found that part contradictory, and weasel-like because it's so passive aggressive.

I mean, he goes from saying he knows what the problem is, he just didn't know why it meant so much to her, to telling her to tell him what to do because he can't be bothered to figure out how to be a grown up.

Which is it? Or both?

Either way... Eeew.

A dude that lets his wife get bent out of shape because of a glass he's using, and a dude that wants her to tell him what needs doing... Is a baby.


----------



## soccermom2three

Evinrude58 said:


> Heh, Heh......
> 
> 
> 
> That's kinda funny. And then with the comments from several about not wanting to "mother" the husband....



I don't get it. 

I think someone's trying really hard.


----------



## Fozzy

jld said:


> I really don't understand why it matters who initiates.


I'll field this one.

It matters because it's a sign of being desired. It sends the same message as being surprised with a nice piece of lingerie.

It's that simple.


----------



## naiveonedave

JMO - it is very vain to expect your spouse to cater to every whim. If you don't extrapolate to the nth degree here, the woman who divorced this man is incredibly vain. 

Now, if he knows she is OCD (or just really hates picking up after anyone and routinely lets it be known that this is marriage killer), maybe he should have acted differently or just never married someone whose requirements are not aligned with his. Or maybe the exW should have communicated her needs (or maybe she did and he ignored, or she routinely ignored his as well). 

It just feels so wrong, that a left out glass = resentment enough to destroy a marriage. Seems like she was never a committed partner.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

Well, there's only 2 possibilities:

1) The divorce wasn't really just about the glass and this guy had a pattern or history that caused his wife to feel systematically unappreciated and eventually caused a divorce, or,

2) This woman had an unreasonable fixation with dishes or trivial nonsense that no man will ever be able to live up to and she shouldn't have gotten married.

So,whatever the case, problem solved.


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> Oh, snap, somebody's back in the drama triangle.
> 
> I thought you had work to do?


She told her husband to do it. He's not in there sulking about how irrational she is. But by golly he's doing it.

(Sorry couldn't help myself ... > )


----------



## Ms. GP

marduk said:


> Oh, snap, somebody's back in the drama triangle.
> 
> I thought you had work to do?


Busted!! :grin2:

I do. I'm just so overwhelmed right now. I keep saying F' it and TAMing. Because I refuse to cry at work. No way in HE#@ am I gonna be that chick.


----------



## Marduk

Ms. GP said:


> I agree. Be careful of the hill you wish to die on. Mabye the glass wouldn't have led to the trash and so on...(metaphorically speaking) But instead he chose to dig in his heels instead of appearing weak, and now he's all alone.


How could you ever appear more weak than telling your wife to please be his boss so he could please her better?

He should have thrown the glass on the floor, put her over his shoulder, and carried her upstairs for a night she wouldn't soon forget. While making plans that weekend to sweep her off her feet with whatever makes her happy -- dinner and dancing or maybe a weekend away. Followed by a nice candle lit bath with maybe some champagne or something. 

And then see how much there's a problem with glasses.

I bet he could leave all the glasses out he wanted after that, and it wouldn't be a problem.


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> Either way... Eeew.
> 
> A dude that lets his wife get bent out of shape because of a glass he's using, and a dude that wants her to tell him what needs doing... Is a baby.


Yea, that's what many of us have been saying.

He's an adult. Act like one.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> He should have thrown the glass on the floor, put her over his shoulder, and carried her upstairs for a night she wouldn't soon forget.


Holy crap, its Rhett Butler!


----------



## OpenWindows

naiveonedave said:


> JMO - it is very vain to expect your spouse to cater to every whim. If you don't extrapolate to the nth degree here, the woman who divorced this man is incredibly vain.
> 
> Now, if he knows she is OCD (or just really hates picking up after anyone and routinely lets it be known that this is marriage killer), maybe he should have acted differently or just never married someone whose requirements are not aligned with his. Or maybe the exW should have communicated her needs (or maybe she did and he ignored, or she routinely ignored his as well).
> 
> It just feels so wrong, that a left out glass = resentment enough to destroy a marriage. Seems like she was never a committed partner.


The husband says HE was never a committed partner, and he routinely ignored her needs.


----------



## Marduk

Ms. GP said:


> Busted!! :grin2:
> 
> I do. I'm just so overwhelmed right now. I keep saying F' it and TAMing. Because I refuse to cry at work. No way in HE#@ am I gonna be that chick.


You're surrounded by drugs, aren't you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> Yea, that's what many of us have been saying.
> 
> He's an adult. Act like one.


He could start by stopping whining and start being self-motivated and determined enough not to let another human being tell him where he gets to leave his hydration facilitation containers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Fozzy said:


> Late to the game. I just read it. My takeaway was not that it was about dishes. It was just a guy using his failed marriage as a cautionary tale that we all need to treat our spouses the way they want to be treated. It's not about men supplicating themselves to their wives. And it doesn't mean women need to supplicate themselves either.
> 
> It's about doing stuff that maybe doesn't come naturally to you because it makes your spouse feel good.
> 
> What's wrong with that?


Nothing is wrong with that. But apparently it's way too much fun for some to go on all day claiming it was just about the glass and his wife is irrational.


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> I'll field this one.
> 
> It matters because it's a sign of being desired. It sends the same message as being surprised with a nice piece of lingerie.
> 
> It's that simple.


I think that has to be inspired. Jmo.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> This is not the situation described by the author.
> 
> But to take your questions at face value...
> 
> Generally, if it's a fairly minor operation but it has major significance to my partner, I'll do it his way. Why not? I love him and want to make him happy, and if that means going three steps out of my way to put the book in the "right" place on the shelf, then no problem. I would hope he'd do the same for me.
> 
> If he is repeatedly making these demands of me, and he's not returning the favor, THAT'S when we have a power struggle. That's when we need to decide if we're keeping the proper balance in the relationship.
> 
> I think you can agree to do these things for each other, or agree to deal with them yourselves, and either way is fine, as long as you agree. The problems start when someone feels they're doing all of these things for their partner and not getting them back... when it really DOESN'T go both ways.


Maybe I'm a ****, but I wouldn't, unless she could convince me why it mattered. 

I wouldn't expect her to, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> How could you ever appear more weak than telling your wife to please be his boss so he could please her better?
> 
> He should have thrown the glass on the floor, put her over his shoulder, and carried her upstairs for a night she wouldn't soon forget. While making plans that weekend to sweep her off her feet with whatever makes her happy -- dinner and dancing or maybe a weekend away. Followed by a nice candle lit bath with maybe some champagne or something.
> 
> And then see how much there's a problem with glasses.
> 
> I bet he could leave all the glasses out he wanted after that, and it wouldn't be a problem.


I think doing all that, _and_ starting to put the glass away would be best.


----------



## Ms. GP

marduk said:


> How could you ever appear more weak than telling your wife to please be his boss so he could please her better?
> 
> He should have thrown the glass on the floor, put her over his shoulder, and carried her upstairs for a night she wouldn't soon forget. While making plans that weekend to sweep her off her feet with whatever makes her happy -- dinner and dancing or maybe a weekend away. Followed by a nice candle lit bath with maybe some champagne or something.
> 
> And then see how much there's a problem with glasses.
> 
> I bet he could leave all the glasses out he wanted after that, and it wouldn't be a problem.


I wish I could like this a thousand times!!! You're right!! F#$% the glasses after all that. That sounds awesome. I'd clean glasses for a thousand years after that!! 

My husband and I never do fun stuff like that. Too busy I guess.


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> Maybe I'm a ****, but I wouldn't, unless she could convince me why it matter.
> 
> I wouldn't expect her to, either.


Because you dirtied the glass and so you are responsible for cleaning it?

If you leave it on the sink, she will have to take care of it later. Why should she take care of your sh!t?


----------



## AliceA

marduk said:


> If me leaving glasses out could chip away at our relationship after everything we've been through together, I'd have found that out long ago.
> 
> Because our relationship would be meaningless.


You have been married previous to your current relationship, yes? I assume in your first marriage you'd been through stuff together, yet you still broke up. Was it just one thing or many things that led to the marriage failing?


----------



## Ms. GP

marduk said:


> You're surrounded by drugs, aren't you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No way Jose!! I'm drug tested all the time!! Clean and sober all the way baby!!


----------



## Starstarfish

> How could you ever appear more weak than telling your wife to please be his boss so he could please her better?


That sounds way hotter than it really is. That's hot in the bedroom or out of the bedroom as kink. And I can think of scenarios that would be a turn on, if the rest of your scenario played out.

But that's not really how it works in the day to day. It's just not sexy to need to tell him to "do the chores." Ugh ... because a lot of the time when you do say what needs doing than you are a "nag" for saying it. And evidently he should get to decide when it gets done. And if it never gets done, well ... it's not that important to him, stop trying to change him. 

That's a no win scenario.


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> Maybe I'm a ****, but I wouldn't, unless she could convince me why it matter.
> 
> I wouldn't expect her to, either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then the author's ex-wife would be a poor choice of wife for you, and that's okay.

I Iove it when a guy does things simply because they make me happy, and I do the same for them. To me, part of being married is having a partner and not having to do everything myself. My roommate doesn't have to care about my dish preferences or my feelings... but that's why they're a roommate and not my SO.


----------



## Wolf1974

breeze said:


> You have been married previous to your current relationship, yes? I assume in your first marriage you'd been through stuff together, yet you still broke up. Was it just one thing or many things that led to the marriage failing?


For me it was just one thing. Her cheating. I never made a big deal about the socks she left on the floor. I concentrated on the 101 good things and not the 1 or two bad
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

FrenchFry said:


> This isn't about men and women sucking, honestly.
> 
> What would you like more: A wife who wore matching underwear every time and initiated 50% of the time (after a brief mention sometime in your marriage) or a wife who wore matching underwear when you said something every time and had sex only if you spent a couple minutes telling her how much it means to you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Any possibility of option three? No underwear use and we work on big issues and not what is in and out of the sink >
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AliceA

Wolf1974 said:


> For me it was just one thing. Her cheating. I never made a big deal about the socks she left on the floor. I concentrated on the 101 good things and not the 1 or two bad
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people reconcile after cheating, so if we follow the glass logic, I could turn around and say that's not a good enough reason to end a marriage. I wouldn't say that though. I'd leave over that too I imagine.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> Because you dirtied the glass and so you are responsible for cleaning it?
> 
> If you leave it on the sink, she will have to take care of it later. Why should she take care of your sh!t?


I wouldn't expect her to clean it up. 

I'd get to it when I was done with it or it bothered me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WonkyNinja

EnigmaGirl said:


> I agree except that sometimes people that are bothered by little things like this aren't bothered by just one little thing.
> 
> They're bothered by a million things that change on a daily basis.


:iagree:

My XW had a wonderful expression "little things mean a lot to me" it was used as carte blanche to find fault with anything and everything. Nothing was good until every "little thing" was correct which could never happen.

In the end I just gave up caring and gave up trying. If the two choices are make no effort and be in the dog house or make a good effort and be in the dog house it's easier to make no effort.

I agree with previous posters sometimes it's not about the item or action "at issue" it's about being in control.


----------



## Wolf1974

breeze said:


> Some people reconcile after cheating, so if we follow the glass logic, I could turn around and say that's not a good enough reason to end a marriage. I wouldn't say that though. I'd leave over that too I imagine.


That's fine. People do reconcile and more power to them. If someone would compare where a glass was left to infidelity ...... Great for them I guess. Some will justify anything I suppose
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

breeze said:


> You have been married previous to your current relationship, yes? I assume in your first marriage you'd been through stuff together, yet you still broke up. Was it just one thing or many things that led to the marriage failing?


I'm not sure. 

But I think her having a boyfriend had something to do with it. 

Funny, that's right about the time she suddenly cared about how well I kept the kitchen...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I disagree it is about control in the sense of her wanting power over him. I think it is about feeling loved.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

marduk said:


> I wouldn't expect her to clean it up.
> 
> I'd get to it when I was done with it or it bothered me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But the whole point is, that you (in theory of course) KNOW that it bothers HER, hence, she feels disrespected by you when you leave it there. It isn't about expecting/not expecting her to take care of it, its about respecting her feelings on it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EnigmaGirl said:


> Well, there's only 2 possibilities:
> 
> 1) The divorce wasn't really just about the glass and this guy had a pattern or history that caused his wife to feel systematically unappreciated and eventually caused a divorce, or,
> 
> 2) This woman had an unreasonable fixation with dishes or trivial nonsense that no man will ever be able to live up to and she shouldn't have gotten married.
> 
> So,whatever the case, problem solved.


This is it. And if you live with a lazy spouse, you think it is 1. If you live with a demanding spouse you think 2.

I am a bit lazy and my wife is a bit demanding, so I think it could be either.

But I stand by my comment that it was a stupid metaphor to use. Complaining about a glass in the sink is CRAZY.


----------



## SadSamIAm

OpenWindows said:


> Maybe she is a b****. But in this case, he doesn't seem to think so. He openly states that he was "a s***** husband" and he should have listened to her. It doesn't apply to all marriages, but it could have saved his, and he wishes he'd done it.


Until he was actually back living with her. Then he might remember it a bit more clearly.


----------



## AliceA

Wolf1974 said:


> That's fine. People do reconcile and more power to them. If someone would compare where a glass was left to infidelity ...... Great for them I guess. Some will justify anything I suppose
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nah, not saying that leaving a glass out is the same as infidelity, saying that minimizing someone's issue (that for one instance was summarised as a problem with a glass) could also be done with other issues, such as "so and so reconciled over that so why can't you" sort of response.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Until he was actually back living with her. Then he might remember it a bit more clearly.


He is full of regret. It was not his choice to divorce, iirc. It was hers.


----------



## Starstarfish

> I wouldn't expect her to clean it up.
> 
> I'd get to it when I was done with it or it bothered me.


The issue is sometimes "when it bothers me" is never. 

I do the laundry, I'm better at making sure things don't come out weird colors, getting stains out, etc. It's fine. I'm okay with that.

My husband's part of the equation is folding and putting things away. One time his "when it bothered him" time phrase for putting away that basket of clothes was three weeks. And it only bothered him because he'd run out of underwear and then evidently remembered where the rest of them were. Of course, by the time it was discovered it had to be washed again because it had sat in the basket so long it had gotten musty.Which is a known issue in our apartment (a whole different story.)

Yes, I could have put it away myself before then, but ... if you promise or agree to do something and then don't ... I don't feel good about it. And if you always "happen to forget" so that I do it myself anyways ... double ugh. 

And am I planning on leaving him over that incident, no. But things like that don't do wonders for my "love bank" either.


----------



## Marduk

3Xnocharm said:


> But the whole point is, that you (in theory of course) KNOW that it bothers HER, hence, she feels disrespected by you when you leave it there. It isn't about expecting/not expecting her to take care of it, its about respecting her feelings on it.


That's my point. 

She can feel whatever she wants about it, but it doesn't make it anything but a glass by the sink. 

I'm happy to do lots of things that make her happy. Lots of silly things that I don't understand, but I can understand the experience of it. 

That isn't one of them.

I don't expect her to care about stupid stuff like when I found the complete original set of Tom baker doctor who episodes on line and sit there watching them with me, either. 

Because it's stupid and I know it and just because I assign value to it doesn't mean that I don't know it's stupid. 

lifes too short.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

breeze said:


> Nah, not saying that leaving a glass out is the same as infidelity, saying that minimizing someone's issue (that for one instance was summarised as a problem with a glass) could also be done with other issues, such as "so and so reconciled over that so why can't you" sort of response.


I get what your saying but doesn't change my response. Relationships have big and small issues. If a woman wants to pick at these minor issues ok then I wouldn't want to be with her Anyway. My personal experience with these types is its never 1 thing and they will pick at you for everything. You'll never be right in their eyes. It's control and punishing and I'm not interested in that. Seems many are concentrating on her feeling on it but missing that he probably also has feelings on the matter Maybe not this particular case but in general mind you. 

Have to keep going back to finding people you are compatible with. Just could never imagine respecting someone who would make a monumental deal over a glass and its location.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Starstarfish said:


> The issue is sometimes "when it bothers me" is never.
> 
> I do the laundry, I'm better at making sure things don't come out weird colors, getting stains out, etc. It's fine. I'm okay with that.
> 
> My husband's part of the equation is folding and putting things away. One time his "when it bothered him" time phrase for putting away that basket of clothes was three weeks. And it only bothered him because he'd run out of underwear and then evidently remembered where the rest of them were. Of course, by the time it was discovered it had to be washed again because it had sat in the basket so long it had gotten musty.Which is a known issue in our apartment (a whole different story.)
> 
> Yes, I could have put it away myself before then, but ... if you promise or agree to do something and then don't ... I don't feel good about it. And if you always "happen to forget" so that I do it myself anyways ... double ugh.
> 
> And am I planning on leaving him over that incident, no. But things like that don't do wonders for my "love bank" either.


Is this isolated to the laundry or is it systemic?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AliceA

marduk said:


> That's my point.
> 
> She can feel whatever she wants about it, but it doesn't make it anything but a glass by the sink.
> 
> I'm happy to do lots of things that make her happy. Lots of silly things that I don't understand, but I can understand the experience of it.
> 
> That isn't one of them.
> 
> I don't expect her to care about stupid stuff like when I found the complete original set of Tom baker doctor who episodes on line and sit there watching them with me, either.
> 
> Because it's stupid and I know it and just because I assign value to it doesn't mean that I don't know it's stupid.
> 
> lifes too short.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If the author had used an example of something that would bother *you*, then your responses would be different I'm guessing, but because he used an example of something that bothered *her* and you see no value in it, it's a different story. Problem is, he was talking about his marriage with her, so just because you would have no issue with the glass doesn't mean she shouldn't.

Edited to add: I'm pretty sure no one here would give a crap about the glass, but we didn't live in the marriage, and assuming she divorced him over a glass is directly opposed to what he stated.


----------



## jld

@Fozzy

Do *you* think initiation needs to be inspired? Or do you think the woman should just find it in herself to initiate?


----------



## Marduk

breeze said:


> If the author had used an example of something that would bother *you*, then your responses would be different I'm guessing, but because he used an example of something that bothered *her* and you see no value in it, it's a different story. Problem is, he was talking about his marriage with her, so just because you would have no issue with the glass doesn't mean she shouldn't.
> 
> Edited to add: I'm pretty sure no one here would give a crap about the glass, but we didn't live in the marriage, and assuming she divorced him over a glass is directly opposed to what he stated.


Ok. 

I care about my Tom baker doctor who series. 

Go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

> I care about my Tom baker doctor who series.


I'm a Whovian, I'm down on that.


----------



## LongWalk

I'll admit to only having read part of this thread, so pardon me if I go over old ground. Some men disappoint their wives in profound ways, for example by failing to better themselves professionally. If a husband doesn't get the promotion and a colleague whom the wife knows socially does, meeting the wife of the colleague may cause envy. 

If the husband does his share of the housework and a little more, he may appear less masculine. If he is lazy, she will resent him for exploiting her.

In this dynamic the problem is that women often want more. The cause of their 
dissatisfaction is not fully known to them.

In these circumstances it is easy for a couple's sexlife to tank. 

If a husband shines in other areas, e.g., could be coaching their kids sports and earning respect or doing other things to raise his sex ranking.

Women will put up with significant nonsense and inequality if they have a very high status husband. 

Men and women don't always want the same things from marriage. Sometimes they want the same things but at different times.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> I'll admit to only having read part of this thread, so pardon me if I go over old ground. Some men disappoint their wives in profound ways, for example by failing to better themselves professionally. If a husband doesn't get the promotion and a colleague whom the wife knows socially does, meeting the wife of the colleague may cause envy.
> 
> If the husband does his share of the housework and a little more, he may appear less masculine. If he is lazy, she will resent him for exploiting her.
> 
> In this dynamic the problem is that women often want more. The cause of their
> dissatisfaction is not fully known to them.
> 
> In these circumstances it is easy for a couple's sexlife to tank.
> 
> If a husband shines in other areas, e.g., could be coaching their kids sports and earning respect or doing other things to raise his sex ranking.
> 
> Women will put up with significant nonsense and inequality if they have a very high status husband.
> 
> Men and women don't always want the same things from marriage. Sometimes they want the same things but at different times.


I think women will put up with a lot if their main needs are being met. And they are the ones who get to define their main needs.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Is this isolated to the laundry or is it systemic?


The issue of ignoring things until I take care of them?

I'd say somewhere between "systemic" and "isolated to the laundry." It occurs in more areas but not all the time.

He works at a bank, therefore one of his "chores" is to get the rent check printed and turned in on time each month (our landlord charges if you use the online payment system.) Because me driving to a bank to get a check when he's there well ... every work day anyway, makes no sense. 

And yet, once a few months ago, he didn't turn the rent check in on time and it cost us a $30 late fee because that was his way of "protesting" that the rent had gone up. 

So ... when I'm upset about the laundry, is it connecting to a deeper issue, in my case, yes. But I am also in and of itself annoyed at the laundry anyways because it's a passive-aggressive way to get out of doing stuff.

So all of the talk about how many I'm a lunatic, too needy, demanding, unreasonable, he'll get to it when he gets to it. In my case, I know exactly what that means.


----------



## Marduk

Starstarfish said:


> The issue of ignoring things until I take care of them?
> 
> I'd say somewhere between "systemic" and "isolated to the laundry." It occurs in more areas but not all the time.
> 
> He works at a bank, therefore one of his "chores" is to get the rent check printed and turned in on time each month (our landlord charges if you use the online payment system.) Because me driving to a bank to get a check when he's there well ... every work day anyway, makes no sense.
> 
> And yet, once a few months ago, he didn't turn the rent check in on time and it cost us a $30 late fee because that was his way of "protesting" that the rent had gone up.
> 
> So ... when I'm upset about the laundry, is it connecting to a deeper issue, in my case, yes. But I am also in and of itself annoyed at the laundry anyways because it's a passive-aggressive way to get out of doing stuff.
> 
> So all of the talk about how many I'm a lunatic, too needy, demanding, unreasonable, he'll get to it when he gets to it. In my case, I know exactly what that means.


More, please. 

He doesn't fold the sheets and purposefully put the rent in late once. 

How's the sex? Romance?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

MattMatt said:


> Actually he wanted the glass there so he could get another drink without having to get a second glass out.


My wife would be more likely to dislike it if I put my glass away after every use. I usually keep it out most of the day so we don't fill up the dishwasher too quickly.

But she wouldn't want to divorce me even if I handled this a different way; that's crazy.


----------



## richie33

It's been a long time where I have seen a thread take off and posters are actually respectful each other and are having a healthy debate. Good job.


----------



## Livvie

Starstarfish said:


> I wouldn't expect her to clean it up.
> 
> I'd get to it when I was done with it or it bothered me.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue is sometimes "when it bothers me" is never.
> 
> I do the laundry, I'm better at making sure things don't come out weird colors, getting stains out, etc. It's fine. I'm okay with that.
> 
> My husband's part of the equation is folding and putting things away. One time his "when it bothered him" time phrase for putting away that basket of clothes was three weeks. And it only bothered him because he'd run out of underwear and then evidently remembered where the rest of them were. Of course, by the time it was discovered it had to be washed again because it had sat in the basket so long it had gotten musty.Which is a known issue in our apartment (a whole different story.)
> 
> Yes, I could have put it away myself before then, but ... if you promise or agree to do something and then don't ... I don't feel good about it. And if you always "happen to forget" so that I do it myself anyways ... double ugh.
> 
> And am I planning on leaving him over that incident, no. But things like that don't do wonders for my "love bank" either.
Click to expand...

Yes!! "When it bothers me" is a pretty lame timeframe, when you live with someone. When you live with someone, isn't it respectful to take your partner into consideration?

I was dating a man after my divorce. It didn't work out. One aspect of incompatibility was that he'd do something to clean up and keep a home running "when it bothered him" which ended up being never. Both while we were living together for a time, AND when he lived alone in his place. His apartment was disgusting. He ate in bed, the bedroom looked like a garbage dump, piled with used food containers and dirty dishes. In his bed were crumbs such that you could pick them up off the sheets by a handful. He got mice. Trapped them, and then left the dead bodies in the traps in the bedroom. Just left them amongst all of the other debris.

The toilet never got cleaned. It was brown inside the bowl and smelled like a urinal. I stopped peeing in it if I was there and held it until we went out.

The kitchen sink was stacked with weeks worth of dirty dishes. Mold, stink. I tackled it once. Some things were so moldy and stuck on, the dishes had to be thrown out. It all smelled like poop, I'm not kidding. I wasn't keen to ever eat off of those things in the future. I stopped going there, it was so unhealthy. I couldn't eat, sleep or pee there without health concerns.

At my place I did all of the daily domestic chores and picked up his debris, too.

But really, I read the blog the article in the OP came from. It wasn't domestic issues that led to the demise of the marriage, at all. Mainly, he didn't care about spending time with her.


----------



## Starstarfish

> More, please.
> 
> He doesn't fold the sheets and purposefully put the rent in late once.
> 
> How's the sex? Romance?


The rent thing was scary because they posted a notice to vacate sign on our door for being three days late. It was how I found out about the problem. That whole thing irked me ... a lot. Especially now because evidently in our state because we were late once, it means they have the legal recourse if we are ever late again to give us less than 30 days to leave.

We have sex usually about three times a week on average. We don't have as much adult style alone time out of the house as one might like, but unfortunately we have a lot of medical debt to pay back so for the time we both work a lot. We go away usually twice a year (once for our anniversary) and spend a weekend by ourselves without the kiddo. How that goes, well ... that's a different discussion.

I don't want to totally thread jack this discussion by talking about myself, but I can if people feel it will help the discussion at hand. Otherwise, I can take it to another thread or to my old OP.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> Nor does it mean that it does not belong to him.
> 
> What household responsibilities belong to a man vs what belongs to a woman? (assuming that they both work full time).
> 
> Do they both have responsibility for their own home and children?


They absolutely do. 

What I have discovered is that sometimes the emotion connected to that "thing" is unresolved trauma from the past. And becomes an opportunity to heal, if the couple is paying attention and cares to address the real issues.


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> They absolutely do.
> 
> What I have discovered is that sometimes the emotion connected to that "thing" is unresolved trauma is paying attention and care to address the real issues.


I don't know. What I found is that sometimes, if not very often, the problem is the refusal to take equal responsibility and thus dumping most if not all household and child care onto the their spouse And that leads to one person being over worked and exhausted. And when a person is over worked and exhausted, they will tend to get into a bad place emotionally.

We have a new thread on TAM that is a good example of this.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/315513-division-household-chores.html


----------



## OpenWindows

Blossom Leigh said:


> They absolutely do.
> 
> What I have discovered is that sometimes the emotion connected to that "thing" is unresolved trauma from the past. And becomes an opportunity to heal, if the couple is paying attention and cares to address the real issues.


I think that's what the article was saying. The emotion she attached to the glass was unresolved feelings of disrespect. But he ignored the disrespect and focused on the glass, so he missed his opportunity to address the issue. And now he regrets that because she left over the unresolved issues.

She could have chosen not to hurt over that glass. But she would still have felt disrespected, because that problem was systemic in their marriage.


----------



## OpenWindows

EleGirl said:


> I don't know. What I found is that sometimes, if not very often, the problem is the refusal to take equal responsibility and thus dumping most if not all household and child care onto the their spouse And that leads to one person being over worked and exhausted. And when a person is over worked and exhausted, they will tend to get into a bad place emotionally.
> 
> We have a new thread on TAM that is a good example of this.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/315513-division-household-chores.html


Sooner or later, the woman who started that thread may blow her top over a glass or a dirty sock. And her husband will think the glass is no big deal, because he can't see the forest when he's focusing on one tree (or he can't see the pile of dishes because he's focused on the glass).

Things like dirty cups don't hurt a happy marriage, but they can absolutely destroy an unstable one.


----------



## Wolf1974

OpenWindows said:


> I think that's what the article was saying. The emotion she attached to the glass was unresolved feelings of disrespect. But he ignored the disrespect and focused on the glass, so he missed his opportunity to address the issue. And now he regrets that because she left over the unresolved issues.
> 
> She could have chosen not to hurt over that glass. But she would still have felt disrespected, because that problem was systemic in their marriage.


She could have focused on the real issue as well and not make it about a petty object. She may have gotten the real issue solved instead of making it about a glass. Maybe she wouldn't have because he didn't care about either issue but seems like, from the blog, that if presented with the real issue he might have been willing to work on it. I know I would have if in his shoes .


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> Sooner or later, the woman who started that thread may blow her top over a glass or a dirty sock. And her husband will think the glass is no big deal, because he can't see the forest when he's focusing on one tree (or he can't see the pile of dishes because he's focused on the glass).
> 
> Things like dirty cups don't hurt a happy marriage, but they can absolutely destroy an unstable one.


I think a lot of men take their wives for granted.


----------



## Fozzy

marduk said:


> Ok.
> 
> I care about my Tom baker doctor who series.
> 
> Go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The ONLY Doctor imo.


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> She could have focused on the real issue as well and not make it about a petty object. She may have gotten the real issue solved instead of making it about a glass. Maybe she wouldn't have because he didn't care about either issue but seems like, from the blog, that if presented with the real issue he might have been willing to work on it. I know I would have if in his shoes .


There is nothing on in the article or in his blog that says that she did not focus on the real issue. Some of what he posted in the article was him talking about her focusing on a real issue.

She might have mentioned the glass. But she also made at least one bigger issue very clear to him. He ignored it.

Another bigger issue that is talks about in his blog is that she wanted to spend time together. He did not want to spend time with her.

It sounds like that alone is two big issues. 

1) she wanted him to take responsibility for things and not wait for her to tell him what to do.

2) she wanted to spend time with him. He did not care enough about her to want to spend time with her.


----------



## OpenWindows

Wolf1974 said:


> She could have focused on the real issue as well and not make it about a petty object. She may have gotten the real issue solved instead of making it about a glass. Maybe she wouldn't have because he didn't care about either issue but seems like, from the blog, that if presented with the real issue he might have been willing to work on it. I know I would have if in his shoes .


Reading his other posts, he says pretty clearly that she said it and he didn't take her seriously. When she said she felt disrespected, he wrote her off as irrational, because he thought of himself as a nice guy and so he couldn't compute why she would feel that way... therefore she must be wrong.

A lot of guys who wouldn't do that, don't understand this. And some guys don't realize they're doing it until it's too late (like the author).


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> There is nothing on in the article or in his blog that says that she did not focus on the real issue. Some of what he posted in the article was him talking about her focusing on a real issue.
> 
> She might have mentioned the glass. But she also made at least one bigger issue very clear to him. He ignored it.
> 
> Another bigger issue that is talks about in his blog is that she wanted to spend time together. He did not want to spend time with her.
> 
> It sounds like that alone is two big issues.
> 
> 1) she wanted him to take responsibility for things and not wait for her to tell him what to do.
> 
> 2) she wanted to spend time with him. He did not care enough about her to want to spend time with her.


That's your take away from it and your perspective. It's not mine. I have known a few couple with the "glass" issue. When you aren't talking about the real issues your relationship is doomed


----------



## Fozzy

jld said:


> @Fozzy
> 
> Do *you* think initiation needs to be inspired? Or do you think the woman should just find it in herself to initiate?


Should be yeah.

Look, the water glass DOES matter. So does initiation for equally valid reasons.

I get it--some women don't understand why it's important to some men. But just like the water glass--it DOESN'T MATTER if they understand why it's important. Simply accept that it is. Just like the author finally accepted (too late) that it didn't matter if he understood why she needed the glass put away. It didn't matter to him--but he now understands that it doesn't have to matter to him, except that it matters to her.

As to Dug's point that you're having sex, so who cares---it's not completely about sex. It's about feeling valued.


----------



## Wolf1974

OpenWindows said:


> Reading his other posts, he says pretty clearly that she said it and he didn't take her seriously. When she said she felt disrespected, he wrote her off as irrational, because he thought of himself as a nice guy and so he couldn't compute why she would feel that way... therefore she must be wrong.
> 
> A lot of guys who wouldn't do that, don't understand this. And some guys don't realize they're doing it until it's too late (like the author).


Which is my point. Working on the real issue may have helped. It may not have. Some men and women are selfish and don't care about thier spouse but plenty do. You can lead the horse to water right


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> That's your take away from it and your perspective. It's not mine. I have known a few couple with the "glass" issue. When you aren't talking about the real issues your relationship is doomed


My take is on what the author said in that article and on his blog. Not according to what I see in some other couple.

And yes, of course the real issues need to be addressed in any relationship. Why they are not addressed has different reasons in different couples.


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> Should be yeah.
> 
> Look, the water glass DOES matter. So does initiation for equally valid reasons.
> 
> I get it--some women don't understand why it's important to some men. But just like the water glass--it DOESN'T MATTER if they understand why it's important. Simply accept that it is. Just like the author finally accepted (too late) that it didn't matter if he understood why she needed the glass put away. It didn't matter to him--but he now understands that it doesn't have to matter to him, except that it matters to her.
> 
> As to Dug's point that you're having sex, so who cares---it's not completely about sex. * It's about feeling valued*.


I can see your point. To you, her inspiring herself for your sake is equivalent to your putting the glass away for hers. Is that correct?

I just don't think I could ever try to get myself to initiate if I were not naturally inspired. I know myself. I would just reject that idea right from the start. 

But this is not an issue in our marriage, so it's all good.


----------



## MattMatt

Unless the glass was a control symbol?

"You want to leave your glass out for you to have another drink? Well, I say the heck with you! I want that glass put in the dishwasher! Now!

"Why? Because!"


----------



## Fozzy

jld said:


> I can see your point. To you, her inspiring herself for your sake is equivalent to your putting the glass away for hers. Is that correct?
> 
> I just don't think I could ever try to get myself to initiate if I were not naturally inspired. I know myself. I would just reject that idea right from the start.
> 
> But this is not an issue in our marriage, so it's all good.


I'm not sure what you mean by "inspiring herself". I said that I agreed with you that he should be inspiring her. Part of the way he would be inspiring her would be by putting away the drinking glass (or it's equivalent). See what I mean? If he's doing stuff that she really cares about--he's going to inspire her.

He does something that SHE cares about, and she does something HE cares about. They both benefit from clean glasses and from a happy sex life.

It's a matter of viewing the relationship through the lens of "what can I give to my partner?" while trusting them to do the same for you. And yeah, that doesn't always work if you have a crappy partner, but if you can get both people on board with thinking that way I don't see how you'd ever wind up with a divorced couple.


----------



## Starstarfish

> What I have discovered is that sometimes the emotion connected to that "thing" is unresolved trauma from the past. And becomes an opportunity to heal, if the couple is paying attention and cares to address the real issues.


I'd agree with that assessment, personally at least. 

I've been evicted when I was a teenager, I've been homeless, that's my unresolved (arguably) trauma. It's my emotional baggage. So my husband not paying the rent that one time and us getting an eviction notice, yeah, it's a "thing" because it brought me back to a really scary place. 

Likewise, as mentioned earlier on the thread, the not putting stuff away and letting it sit around reminds me of being a hoarder (and potentially why that was my projection on the discussion of the blog post in question).

It may or may not make what bothers me more "valid" but I didn't just randomly pick something out of thin air to be bothered with. Those things matter to me because they are the kinds of things that make me feel "safe." Doing otherwise makes me feel not safe, and worse makes me feel like my son is not safe. It's really triggering. And yes, that's my issue, not his, ultimately. But it means a lot to me and speaks love for him to avoid doing things like that.


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "inspiring herself". I said that I agreed with you that he should be inspiring her. Part of the way he would be inspiring her would be by putting away the drinking glass (or it's equivalent). See what I mean? If he's doing stuff that she really cares about--he's going to inspire her.
> 
> *He does something that SHE cares about, and she does something HE cares about.* They both benefit from clean glasses and from a happy sex life.
> 
> It's a matter of viewing the relationship through the lens of "what can I give to my partner?" while trusting them to do the same for you. And yeah, that doesn't always work if you have a crappy partner, but if you can get both people on board with thinking that way I don't see how you'd ever wind up with a divorced couple.


Oh, okay. Then I agree. I work off a "he inspires, and she responds" model, as you know.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> My take is on what the author said in that article and on his blog. Not according to what I see in some other couple.
> 
> And yes, of course the real issues need to be addressed in any relationship. Why they are not addressed has different reasons in different couples.


We all look at it from our own lens. If you now want to state you don't then that's on you. I'm offering my perspective as someone who has seen it BUT never lived it. But it is still my perspective take it or leave it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

The bottom line on this thread is that in marriage, we need to communicate. Talk about needs. Talk about love busters. And come to an agreement on all this. If you feel that your spouse's stated need is unreasonable, state that and talk about it until there is an agreement. And then a couple needs to revisit this often. Needs change over time.

When your spouse tells you what their needs are and how they you can meet them.. do that... meet their needs.

If you cannot do that, they should dump your sorry behind. Pretty simple.

And no it is not selfish.


----------



## BetrayedDad

jld said:


> So her leaving was a blessing to you. Right?


I dumped her so I blessed myself I guess.

Back then, lousy wife I would have put up with sadly enough. Cheating wife was my line.

Now I will not tolerate either or one like poor idiot's horrible ex.

The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think his who blog is some kind of farce. Who is this stupid, besides him apparently, to blame themselves over dishes?!?


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> She could have focused on the real issue as well and not make it about a petty object. She may have gotten the real issue solved instead of making it about a glass. Maybe she wouldn't have because he didn't care about either issue but seems like, from the blog, that if presented with the real issue he might have been willing to work on it. I know I would have if in his shoes .


_Exactly. _


----------



## BlueWoman

marduk said:


> None of that is said or even insinuated in the article.
> 
> In fact; quite the opposite. The stated position is that the sole issue is leaving the glass by the sink rather than putting it in the dishwasher.
> 
> In fact, the author seems to indicate that if hadn't left it out, he would still be married.
> 
> The rest of your statement is pure projection based on your own position.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You didn't do very well in high school English class, did you?


----------



## BetrayedDad

OpenWindows said:


> Maybe she is a b****. But in this case, he doesn't seem to think so. He openly states that he was "a s***** husband" and he should have listened to her. It doesn't apply to all marriages, but it could have saved his, and he wishes he'd done it.


I read his whole blog. The man is deranged and sounds like he's repeating back his wife's blameshifting verbatim. How many BS's come on TAM and blame themselves for the spouse cheating. Does this make it so? Obviously not.

"Washing that glass just wasn't good enough.... If only I washed it without being asked, THEN my wife would still be with me!"

Delusional. Give me a fvcking break..... Barf


----------



## Marduk

Starstarfish said:


> The rent thing was scary because they posted a notice to vacate sign on our door for being three days late. It was how I found out about the problem. That whole thing irked me ... a lot. Especially now because evidently in our state because we were late once, it means they have the legal recourse if we are ever late again to give us less than 30 days to leave.
> 
> We have sex usually about three times a week on average. We don't have as much adult style alone time out of the house as one might like, but unfortunately we have a lot of medical debt to pay back so for the time we both work a lot. We go away usually twice a year (once for our anniversary) and spend a weekend by ourselves without the kiddo. How that goes, well ... that's a different discussion.
> 
> I don't want to totally thread jack this discussion by talking about myself, but I can if people feel it will help the discussion at hand. Otherwise, I can take it to another thread or to my old OP.


K. 

If the debt were wiped out and you bought a place instead of renting because he worked his ass off to make it so, would the sheets still matter to you?


----------



## Marduk

BlueWoman said:


> You didn't do very well in high school English class, did you?


Lol. 

Good one. 

I've been watching a lot of Downton Abbey, does that count?


----------



## Celes

Wow that article was ridiculous. And I'm a woman. Honestly, the dude sounds like a total wimp. That's probably really why she left him. Has nothing to do with dirty cups.


----------



## AliceA

Wolf1974 said:


> She could have focused on the real issue as well and not make it about a petty object. She may have gotten the real issue solved instead of making it about a glass. Maybe she wouldn't have because he didn't care about either issue but seems like, from the blog, that if presented with the real issue he might have been willing to work on it. I know I would have if in his shoes .


Probably easier said than done. I don't think it's particularly easy to step back from the issue when you are knee deep in it.


----------



## Starstarfish

> If the debt were wiped out and you bought a place instead of renting because he worked his ass off to make it so, would the sheets still matter to you?


You'd have to read my OP to realize that's an entirely hypothetical in our case, in all likelihood. 

But would it still matter? Well ... there's more info I posted a bit back. So there is that stuff there ... But would our financial situation make it less important? Possibly. If money was less a concern I could bring his dress shirts that I wash and iron to the dry cleaners each week and then have the time to fold/put away the other stuff. 

But in either case, I'd rather have you straight tell me you aren't going to do something then promise to and then not. That's $hi+ test passive aggressive stuff.


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

jld said:


> I think a lot of men take their wives for granted.


Come on now. I think a lot of SPOUSES take their own spouses for granted.


----------



## AliceA

Honestly, if she had of started a deep and meaningful conversation about the 'real issue' after an event that triggered the annoyance, it still might've been all about the annoyance (glass whatever), and he'd might've said something like "zomg, you're completely overreacting, it's just a f*cking *whatever*". Just because one partner feels there is a serious issue and brings it up it doesn't mean the other person is going to take it seriously.

Edited to add: Come to think of it, how often do you see people here say they've brought up these big issues with their partners time and time again and nothing changed? I couldn't count how often I've seen that, so I don't necessarily believe someone when they say, "oh I'd get right on that if my partner told me about it" line; feel free to call me cynical, lol.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Celes said:


> Wow that article was ridiculous. And I'm a woman. Honestly, the dude sounds like a total wimp. That's probably really why she left him. Has nothing to do with dirty cups.


Wow...

Will you marry me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Starstarfish said:


> You'd have to read my OP to realize that's an entirely hypothetical in our case, in all likelihood.
> 
> But would it still matter? Well ... there's more info I posted a bit back. So there is that stuff there ... But would our financial situation make it less important? Possibly. If money was less a concern I could bring his dress shirts that I wash and iron to the dry cleaners each week and then have the time to fold/put away the other stuff.
> 
> But in either case, I'd rather have you straight tell me you aren't going to do something then promise to and then not. That's $hi+ test passive aggressive stuff.


My point is that I don't think it's about the sheets. Or the sheets are tangential to the whole real problem here.

I think you're in a tough spot.


----------



## AliceA

Celes said:


> Wow that article was ridiculous. And I'm a woman. Honestly, the dude sounds like a total wimp. That's probably really why she left him. Has nothing to do with dirty cups.


Ah, but are you calling him a wimp because of what he didn't do while he was married or because of what he thinks about it now?


----------



## Starstarfish

> My point is that I don't think it's about the sheets. Or the sheets are tangential to the whole real problem here.
> 
> I think you're in a tough spot.


Yeah, I know. It's a symptom of a bigger issue. 

But discussing the sheets is a lot easier a fight than getting into really ugly truths sometimes. It's a form of rug sweeping.


----------



## WandaJ

marduk said:


> It really irritates me that my wife's bra and panties often don't match.
> 
> I mean, it's a small thing that would only take an extra few seconds out of her day, and would mean a lot to me.
> 
> It must mean that she's quite the ***** for not conforming to my value system, and that she doesn't love me, and deserves to be divorced.
> 
> Bwahahahaha!


come on marduk, you can do better than that. You know very well this is not about one pile of dirty dishes, this is about husband who does not give a **** and takes his wife for granted.


----------



## Wolf1974

breeze said:


> Probably easier said than done. I don't think it's particularly easy to step back from the issue when you are knee deep in it.


Much easier than getting divorced. Just sayin


----------



## Blossom Leigh

breeze said:


> Probably easier said than done. I don't think it's particularly easy to step back from the issue when you are knee deep in it.


It IS hard work and many won't do this kind of work. 

Another area I think happens are positions we adopted from our parents that aren't necessarily "our" beliefs but we never pay them mind enough to consider whether we should keep that position.


----------



## Marduk

WandaJ said:


> come on marduk, you can do better than that. You know very well this is not about one pile of dirty dishes, this is about husband who does not give a **** and takes his wife for granted.


Funny, if you read the rest of his blog, he's obviously something else entirely.


----------



## RClawson

Gottman sums it up like this:

"It comes down to a superiority complex."

"Feeling smarter than, better than, or more sensitive than your significant other means you're not only less likely see his or her opinions as valid, but, more importantly, you're far less willing to try to put yourself in his or her shoes to try to see a situation from his or her perspective."

Why is this thread still going on? Don't you people have lives?


----------



## Evinrude58

He should have put a gift card for a pair of diamond earrings under the cup and tried to see how long it would take her lazy butt to discover it.😋

I think his ex could write a master's thesis on blame shifting. And according to the weakminded poo he writes, he could be up for the feminist's man of the year award.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AliceA

Wolf1974 said:


> Much easier than getting divorced. Just sayin


True, but that's assuming they know at that point that they'll be getting a divorce in the future. Once they've decided to get a divorce, then it's generally too little too late.


----------



## AliceA

RClawson said:


> Why is this thread still going on? Don't you people have lives?


People are just discussing stuff. Feel free not to read it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I will say this. There is no way the demise of their marriage was 100% on him even though he appears to be taking 100% of the blame.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I will say this. *There is no way the demise of their marriage was 100% on him *even though he appears to be taking 100% of the blame.


Would you like to elaborate on the bolded?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Would you like to elaborate on the bolded?


Sure, very simple.

I know women.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sure, very simple.
> 
> I know women.


Too simple for me. I would need more elaboration to understand.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Too simple for me. I would need more elaboration to understand.


I've been front row seat to the level of depravity that can blossom from the heart of a woman. She is not innocent of the demise of that marriage. If two are to become one, then two become two. Women are not innocent creatures that we too often paint ourselves to be. Hard as we may try.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I've been front row seat to the level of depravity that can blossom from the heart of a woman. She is not innocent of the demise of that marriage. *If two are to become one, the two become two.* Women are not innocent creatures that we too often paint ourselces to be. Hard as we may try.


Do you think all women are the same?

I don't understand the bolded.


----------



## lifeistooshort

BetrayedDad said:


> I read his whole blog. The man is deranged and sounds like he's repeating back his wife's blameshifting verbatim. How many BS's come on TAM and blame themselves for the spouse cheating. Does this make it so? Obviously not.
> 
> "Washing that glass just wasn't good enough.... If only I washed it without being asked, THEN my wife would still be with me!"
> 
> Delusional. Give me a fvcking break..... Barf


Because there's no possible way he could in fact have been a sh!tty hb?

It's always the woman's fault right?

I see it all the time her on TAM.....no matter what a guy admits to he's told that he really can't be that bad and his wife is rewriting history and blameshifting. Maybe that's why so many here have marital problems.

Delusional.....Give me a fvcking break....barf.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Do you think all women are the same?
> 
> I don't understand the bolded.


The *the* was supposed to be *then.* If two become one in marriage, then two become two in divorce.

For the capacity of depravity, yes.

As well as the capacity for delusion of said depravity.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Wolf1974 said:


> She could have focused on the real issue as well and not make it about a petty object. She may have gotten the real issue solved instead of making it about a glass. Maybe she wouldn't have because he didn't care about either issue but seems like, from the blog, that if presented with the real issue he might have been willing to work on it. I know I would have if in his shoes .


If you read his blog you'd see that she did focus on the issues, he just ignored it. Whether she even gave the glass as a reason for dumping him isn't clear.....that what HE says is a reason but I did not see where she told him it was because he didn't put a dirty glass in the dishwasher.

There's big time projecting going on all over this thread.


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe that's why so many here have marital problems.


I have had similar thoughts as I read some of the posts on this thread.


----------



## jld

The writer is doing a good job examining his conscience and taking responsibility for the demise of his marriage. He is trying to learn from the past in order to be a better husband next time around. His effort to empower himself is commendable.


----------



## jld

@OpenWindows

You seem to have read more on his blog than just this article. Does he ever mention apologizing to his ex-wife for his treatment of her?


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> The writer is doing a good job examining his conscience and taking responsibility for the demise of his marriage. He is trying to learn from the past in order to be a better husband next time around. His effort to empower himself is commendable.


Yes he is. I've no doubt his wife had her part in things, these things always work both ways. 

But she left and he didn't, so while blame goes both ways it's little comfort to the one that didn't want the marriage to end. 

Self reflection can only help him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes he is. I've no doubt his wife had her part in things, these things always work both ways.
> 
> But she left and he didn't, so while blame goes both ways it's little comfort to the one that didn't want the marriage to end.
> 
> Self reflection can only help him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What blame do you think she has, life?


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> @OpenWindows
> 
> You seem to have read more on his blog than just this article. Does he ever mention apologizing to his ex-wife for his treatment of her?


I haven't seen a post about it, but I haven't read it all. His blog is a little painful for me, because it feels like it could have been written by my own XH, if he had a bit more self-awareness (even the bit I'm about to share is eerily similar to an experience we had).

For the sake of perspective on the state of his marriage and how he thought of his wife, I'm sharing a post he made about the birth of his child. While there are horrible, demanding women in the world, it get the impression that's not his situation.



> The Worst Thing I’ve Ever Done
> 
> Between acting like my wife should hurry up and get over the unexpected death of her father because it was damaging our marriage, and my nonchalant denial of her postpartum depression following our son’s birth, I can’t decide which is my greatest failure on my*journey toward divorce.
> 
> I wake up every day believing I’m a good person, but maybe I’m not.
> 
> My failure to adequately support my wife after losing a parent was largely a function of a million previous tiny failures culminating in*her breaking point in the midst of grief. When everything hurts, you need someone you can trust to help take some of the pain away. I’d stopped being that a long time ago.*I just didn’t know it yet.
> 
> I thought she had been nitpicky, overly emotional and occasionally unfair for the previous seven years. Like most guys, I was selfish and clueless.
> 
> So, here’s a secret I’ve never told anyone: I have a sociopathic trait.*I*lack the ability to*empathize with the physical pain of others.
> 
> When I read books, or hear someone describe something I’ve never seen, my brain dials up images, but what I visually imagine is almost never*what reality looks like when I get to see whatever the thing is. And maybe that’s why I struggle with relating to the physical pain of others. Because I can’t properly imagine it.
> 
> I am quite sensitive to emotional pain—especially if I’ve been through something similar to a hurting person, or can adequately imagine what it would be like to.
> 
> That matters for two reasons: I wasn’t appreciating how much physical discomfort my wife was experiencing during pregnancy, and because I was an ignorant mook, I also failed to grasp the fear, stress and anxiety she might have been feeling worrying*about both child delivery, first, then the following 18 years of being responsible for the safety and wellbeing of an actual person.
> 
> …
> 
> I was texting friends from the chair next to her bed while she was in labor.*I was updating them on her and the baby’s status, so I thought I was doing something important. My wife expressed displeasure with my choice. She wanted me to be fully present and engaged with her, demonstrating my commitment to her, and reinforcing in her mind and heart that I would always be at her side through life’s difficult moments.
> 
> These are things I understand today. They make perfect sense, because today I am less of an ignorant mook. But on that day seven and a half years ago, none of that made sense.
> 
> The mere act of marrying her demonstrates my commitment to her forever, I thought.
> 
> OF COURSE she knows based on thousands of conversations how much I value*being a good father.
> 
> OF COURSE she knows she’s loved.
> 
> OF COURSE she knows she can count on me.
> 
> She knows me well enough. She knows I’m a good*person.
> 
> I wasn’t illogical for assuming and believing that. I was just profoundly ignorant. I think most guys are because no one ever explains it to us in a way that ever computes and resonates.
> 
> I would never consider something more important than the birth of my son.*But texting friends while my wife was in labor—no matter how uneventful or undramatic it seemed to me—felt to her precisely like I cared more about doing what I wanted than being there for her in her most-vulnerable moments.
> 
> I would never physically abandon my crying wife.*But that’s exactly what I did.*She cried. She asked me not to go. But I’m stubborn and moronic and had it in my head that I needed to be well rested for the days ahead per the advice of other fathers.
> 
> I left my crying wife alone in a hospital room just hours removed from an emergency C-section where she struggled to breastfeed a screaming child who didn’t want to with nurses who made her feel like she just wasn’t trying hard enough.
> 
> Why?
> 
> So I could sleep, shower, send photos to family and friends, and revel in the amazing feeling of being a father to a newborn son.
> 
> I hope you believe me when I tell you how reasonable it seemed at the time.
> 
> In the context of my nine-year marriage? It’s the single worst thing I’ve ever done.
> 
> Then I Made it Worse By Suggesting Postpartum Depression Wasn’t Real*
> 
> My wife developed postpartum depression.
> 
> My lack of education about hormone loss and the psychological impact of childbirth on a new mother, combined with*my lack of respect for mental and emotional health issues across the board, were just the ingredients needed to make me a profoundly negligent ******* in the early months of our son’s life.
> 
> I thought postpartum depression amounted to mental weakness.
> 
> I thought it was something “crazy” people feel, likeAndrea Yates*who drowned five of her children in the family bathtub.
> 
> I thought it was tantamount to my wife not loving our infant son.
> 
> This is just a phase she’ll get over, I thought.
> 
> She’s emotional sometimes, but I know she isn’t crazy!
> 
> I know she loves our baby.
> 
> Instead of reading books, talking to other parents, researching PPD or even just actively seeking ways to help my wife in whatever way I could make the difficult adjustment to parenthood, I played a lot of online poker and watched football and convinced myself I was a good husband and father because I have a kind heart.
> 
> I hope when she thinks back on those days, she remembers at least something positive about me, but I can’t say with certainty that she can, or that she should.
> 
> She tried to talk to me about it later. About the PPD. About how sad and afraid and alone she felt in the hospital when I’d left her there. About how she wanted me to actively participate in the planning and organization of our new life as parents.
> 
> But instead of apologizing with heartfelt sincerity for hurting my wife so badly, I’d get angry with her and accuse her of looking for yet another reason to complain about me even though I was such a good guy.Good guys are well liked and get told what good guys they are all the time, so when their wives point out their shortcomings in*a relationship, all the “good guys” resort to the old:*“How is it that the person I married is the one always *****ing about me?”*Because if no one else is *****ing about you, they must all be right, and your crazy emo wife must be wrong.
> 
> …
> 
> Postpartum depression,*according to the Mayo Clinic, typically requires professional treatment, including therapy sessions and, when applicable, anti-depressant medication.
> 
> The Mayo Clinic lists the following things mothers suffering from PPD can do to speed up recovery:
> 
> Make healthy lifestyle choices.*Include physical activity, such as a walk with your baby, in your daily routine. Try to get adequate rest. Eat healthy foods and avoid alcohol.
> 
> Only a mother with a thoughtful and attentive husband can realistically expect to get the sleep, healthy food preparation, and time (not to mention energy) for physical activity to achieve a healthy lifestyle and overcome PPD.
> 
> Set realistic expectations.*Don’t pressure yourself to do everything. Scale back your expectations for the perfect household. Do what you can and leave the rest.
> 
> A new mother only feels like she has to do everything when her partner doesn’t have her back.
> 
> Make time for yourself.*If you feel like the world is coming down around you, take some time for yourself. Get dressed, leave the house, and visit a friend or run an errand. Or schedule some time alone with your partner.
> 
> There are only enough hours in the day when all of a household’s responsibilities are tended to. Time alone with a partner only works when the partner makes himself available for such things.
> 
> Avoid isolation.*Talk with your partner, family and friends about how you’re feeling. Ask other mothers about their experiences. Breaking the isolation may help you feel human again.
> 
> When my wife tried to talk to me about it, I basically*invalidated her condition and dismissed it as a figment of her imagination. “You’re a great mother,” I kept saying, as if you can’t be a great mother AND feel uncontrollably depressed due to a variety of hormonal and psychological conditions I was largely responsible for creating in the first place.
> 
> Ask for help.*Try to open up to the people close to you and let them know you need help. If someone offers to baby-sit so you can take a break, take them up on it. If you can sleep, take a nap, or maybe you can catch a movie or meet for coffee with friends.
> 
> She tried to talk to me. Several times. She asked me for help. And I denied her my help by suggesting there was nothing to worry about. Instead of trying to understand how she felt*and working diligently to figure out what more I could do to help,*I pretended everything was fine and left her to fend for herself.
> 
> Maybe I did that because it was easier than working hard.
> 
> Maybe I let my wife run the show because I didn’t want the responsibility or the hassle.
> 
> Maybe every single thing about our lives would be different had I made the right choices.
> 
> …
> 
> There were countless little moments where I failed my wife. Where I didn’t work harder to understand her or speak to her in ways that conveyed my sincere desire to be a good partner.
> 
> But until I ditched my crying wife at the hospital to catch a few winks, left all the new-parenting heavy lifting to her, and never once apologized or took responsibility for it, I hadn’t actually destroyed my family.
> 
> There’s no such thing as time travel. And there’s not enough Christmas magic to rewind clocks and unflip calendars.
> 
> But if anyone’s wondering what I’m most sorry for in my entire life, now you know.


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> What blame do you think she has, life?


Difficult to say as his blog is his own self reflection but nobody's perfect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> I haven't seen a post about it, but I haven't read it all. His blog is a little painful for me, because it feels like it could have been written by my own XH, if he had a bit more self-awareness (even the bit I'm about to share is eerily similar to an experience we had).
> 
> For the sake of perspective on the state of his marriage and how he thought of his wife, I'm sharing a post he made about the birth of his child. While there are horrible, demanding women in the world, it get the impression that's not his situation.


She seems very reasonable to me, too. And he was not horrible, *just* selfish and clueless.

Reading the posts here, I have been reflecting on how minor my complaints seem in comparison. My husband would never respond as some of the folks here have. He is generally sympathetic to my disappointments.

But he is not pro-active. He listens and nods, and then it seems he is right back to whatever it is I was complaining about. 

I don't think I would ever leave my husband. I think if it were looking like that, he would make some big efforts to be pro-active. 

But barring some major move on my part, I don't think he will ever do more than just whatever he feels like doing. And because my life in general is nice, and because he seems very good in comparison to most men, there will never be any real pressure on him to change.


----------



## lifeistooshort

OpenWindows said:


> I haven't seen a post about it, but I haven't read it all. His blog is a little painful for me, because it feels like it could have been written by my own XH, if he had a bit more self-awareness (even the bit I'm about to share is eerily similar to an experience we had).
> 
> For the sake of perspective on the state of his marriage and how he thought of his wife, I'm sharing a post he made about the birth of his child. While there are horrible, demanding women in the world, it get the impression that's not his situation.


This post is so sad. 

I had terrible ppd with my first, compounded by the fact that I'd left my job and was isolated, we were far away from family, and my ex was a d0uche. 

I remember one of the pivotal moments for me, when I realized he didn't have my back. He'd met some dope smoking weirdos when his car broke down and wanted to go hang out with them one Saturday. I was not invited and was having a pretty bad breakdown, at least for me as I have difficulty being vulnerable. 

I was in our apartment crying my eyes out and really needed him to hang out with me, but dope smoking friends he just met were more important. I was sitting on the floor crying my eyes out with his infant son next to me and he looked me in the face while walking out the door. 

I think our relationship, at least to the extent we'd ever had one, damaged irreparably at that moment. I walled myself off from him after that. ... yet he never noticed until I filed for divorce. 

I doubt he even remembers that incident. .... he has no capacity for self reflection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

lifeistooshort said:


> If you read his blog you'd see that she did focus on the issues, he just ignored it. Whether she even gave the glass as a reason for dumping him isn't clear.....that what HE says is a reason but I did not see where she told him it was because he didn't put a dirty glass in the dishwasher.
> 
> There's big time projecting going on all over this thread.


And what I have been saying ...repeatedly.......is you can't fix the big issues when you only concentrate on the small insignificant ones. If ou are not going to talk about the big issues then your relationship is doomed.....


Yes it's clear a LOT of projecting is on going on here


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

Wolf1974 said:


> And what I have been saying ...repeatedly.......is you can't fix the big issues when you only concentrate on the small insignificant ones. If ou are not going to talk about the big issues then your relationship is doomed.....
> 
> 
> Yes it's clear a LOT of projecting is on going on here


QFT I have the feeling some posters on this thread will be quoting this single case study (whilst feeling morally superior) for a looooong time


----------



## Wolf1974

breeze said:


> True, but that's assuming they know at that point that they'll be getting a divorce in the future. Once they've decided to get a divorce, then it's generally too little too late.


That's a very good point, I have to imagine that at some point before you check out in a marriage like this you make a choice to give up. Not sure when that comes, never been there myself, but When someone checks out the marriage is over really at that point. The divorce is just the formality.


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> She seems very reasonable to me, too. And he was not horrible, *just* selfish and clueless.
> 
> Reading the posts here, I have been reflecting on how minor my complaints seem in comparison. My husband would never respond as some of the folks here have. He is generally sympathetic to my disappointments.
> 
> But he is not pro-active. He listens and nods, and then it seems he is right back to whatever it is I was complaining about.
> 
> I don't think I would ever leave my husband. I think if it were looking like that, he would make some big efforts to be pro-active.
> 
> But barring some major move on my part, I don't think he will ever do more than just whatever he feels like doing. And because my life in general is nice, and because he seems very good in comparison to most men, there will never be any real pressure on him to change.



I know what you mean. I love my hb and after almost 11 years still feel I made a great choice. Having said that I do wish he was a little more emotionally suppprtive, but he'd NEVER leave me in the hospital like that. He wouldn't do it if I'd had my knee operated on let alone if I'd just had his child. Especially if I begged him not to go. 

Maybe I should rethink some of my complaints. 

I know I'm not always a picnic to live with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Wolf1974 said:


> And what I have been saying ...repeatedly.......is you can't fix the big issues when you only concentrate on the small insignificant ones. If ou are not going to talk about the big issues then your relationship is doomed.....
> 
> 
> Yes it's clear a LOT of projecting is on going on here


Yes, I agree with you. It just looks like she did try to talk to him about the big issues and he dismissed them as stupid.

Many posters here are hung up on the glass or are sure she didn't try, yet according to him she did. 

What more was she supposed to do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

Wolf1974 said:


> That's a very good point, I have to imagine that at some point before you check out in a marriage like this you make a choice to give up. Not sure when that comes, never been there myself, but When someone checks out the marriage is over really at that point. The divorce is just the formality.


That's how is was for me. XH told me later that at the time, he sensed I'd checked out. But he told himself it was just hormones, I was just tired, I wouldn't really leave a nice guy like him... so he ignored it and waited for it to pass.

When you get to that point of checking out, it's usually too late to fix. And if someone is checking out like that, it's usually because they're with a spouse who feels no responsibility to work on fixing it anyway.


----------



## Wolf1974

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes, I agree with you. It just looks like she did try to talk to him about the big issues and he dismissed them as stupid.
> 
> Many posters here are hung up on the glass or are sure she didn't try, yet according to him she did.
> 
> What more was she supposed to do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing.. Nothing you can do that's my point. When you choose to fight a battle over dishware when the boat is already sinking that war is long since lost my opinion. 

I don't know totally who was to blame for the demise in this marriage but I would bet a paycheck that it was both of them and thier inability to communicate effectively. 

My guess would be that her technique was to lash out about minor things but not talk about the real issues in the beginning. He likely shut it down and didn't want to hear it so tuned her out. Then the issues became monumental and needed to be addressed because they were causing her to check out of the marriage , however, he was tuning everything out at this point because that was the habit that they established. she checks out and stops communicating cause what good does it do. He thinks wholly hell finally peace we aren't arguing or at each other throats anymore, this is an improved marriage 2.0. Que the cup she says she is leaving he says WTF just happend I thought things were better now.

I have no doubt that some will place all blame on the guy...cause you know TAM and all. But I am just trying to illustrate that I have seen marriages go down for things like this. Now I am probably a better communicator than some guys. If we have an issue I will talk to you all day long about it till we reach a compromise. What I won't do is argue over a glass when what we really need to do is talk about the real problem. That was my point.


----------



## WandaJ

marduk said:


> Funny, if you read the rest of his blog, he's obviously something else entirely.


maybe he is now, to bad he wasn't then


----------



## Marduk

WandaJ said:


> maybe he is now, to bad he wasn't then


Blech. 

If anything, he's sorry he wasn't weaker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

lifeistooshort said:


> This post is so sad.
> 
> I had terrible ppd with my first, compounded by the fact that I'd left my job and was isolated, we were far away from family, and my ex was a d0uche.
> 
> I remember one of the pivotal moments for me, when I realized he didn't have my back. He'd met some dope smoking weirdos when his car broke down and wanted to go hang out with them one Saturday. I was not invited and was having a pretty bad breakdown, at least for me as I have difficulty being vulnerable.
> 
> I was in our apartment crying my eyes out and really needed him to hang out with me, but dope smoking friends he just met were more important. I was sitting on the floor crying my eyes out with his infant son next to me and he looked me in the face while walking out the door.
> 
> I think our relationship, at least to the extent we'd ever had one, damaged irreparably at that moment. I walled myself off from him after that. ... yet he never noticed until I filed for divorce.
> 
> I doubt he even remembers that incident. .... he has no capacity for self reflection.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, I hear you!

XH tried to leave me in the hospital alone just so he wouldn't have to speak to my mom while he dropped off our older daughter. I had to lay in my hospital bed making arrangements for a friend to drop her off, just so he wouldn't leave me. So he stayed and played on his tablet the whole time. He also had a habit of leaving me alone with our colicky baby and our toddler, so he could go find weed, because "daddy needs a break."

He still tells people I left him over housework, and I think he still believes it, no matter what I say to him. It's never really about the d*** glass, the glass is just a scapegoat for everything else.


----------



## Wolf1974

OpenWindows said:


> That's how is was for me. XH told me later that at the time, he sensed I'd checked out. But he told himself it was just hormones, I was just tired, I wouldn't really leave a nice guy like him... so he ignored it and waited for it to pass.
> 
> When you get to that point of checking out, it's usually too late to fix. And if someone is checking out like that, it's usually because they're with a spouse who feels no responsibility to work on fixing it anyway.


i will have to disagree. Unless you are telling me that before you married him he was a bad communicator and never cared about you then something changed through the course of the marriage for both of you and both deserve some accountability in that.

Now if you just straight up married a bad dude that's ok too. I straight up married a bad woman and could do nothing for her to stop her from cheating so I get it. But our cases aside things don't happen in a vacuum often they erode slowly over time. I don't know many walking down the aisle going this is a bad guy or girl I am marrying. 

To me the bulk of the marriages break down on communication. NOT just the guys lack of it but how they communicate with one another


----------



## OpenWindows

Wolf1974 said:


> i will have to disagree. Unless you are telling me that before you married him he was a bad communicator and never cared about you then something changed through the course of the marriage for both of you and both deserve some accountability in that.
> 
> Now if you just straight up married a bad dude that's ok too. I straight up married a bad woman and could do nothing for her to stop her from cheating so I get it. But our cases aside things don't happen in a vacuum often they erode slowly over time. I don't know many walking down the aisle going this is a bad guy or girl I am marrying.
> 
> To me the bulk of the marriages break down on communication. NOT just the guys lack of it but how they communicate with one another


He was always a bad communicator, and always prone to writing me off when I was upset. But when I was 20, I thought that was normal, as it was common in my life at the time. I thought I could work with it, and was too naive to realize how wrong I was.

He was never a bad person, never had bad intent. He just didn't understand that my feelings were just as important as his, so he thought he could just shut me down when I didn't make sense to him, and I'd get over it and realize my feelings were "wrong".


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes, I agree with you. It just looks like she did try to talk to him about the big issues and he dismissed them as stupid.
> 
> Many posters here are hung up on the glass or are sure she didn't try, yet according to him she did.
> 
> What more was she supposed to do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"I am going to leave you unless you start to put as much effort into our relationship as I do."

And then do that. 

Because that was the real problem, right?









_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

OpenWindows said:


> He was always a bad communicator, and always prone to writing me off when I was upset. But when I was 20, I thought that was normal, as it was common in my life at the time. I thought I could work with it, and was too naive to realize how wrong I was.
> 
> He was never a bad person, never had bad intent. He just didn't understand that my feelings were just as important as his, so he thought he could just shut me down when I didn't make sense to him, and I'd get over it and realize my feelings were "wrong".


Fair enough. And believe me I get it. I was young and naive when I married my x. Believed I could love her out of her daddy issues. But I couldn't and would never do that now. She was never a good person
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This thread is getting tiresome. Too much expecting someone else to make us happy. When it's not where it comes from anyway. Can we find joy in others, yes. But expecting others to carry our emotional load is sure fire way for let down and we tie it to SO MANY stupid things AND many times we don't even know WHY we tied it to that in the first place. If there is one thing my marriage has taught me its that no man is designed to carry my entire emotional load and I am not designed to carry any man's entire emotional load. I guarantee you had this woman gotten centered on her own soul instead of looking to him to "fulfill" her, it quite possibly would have affected him to the point where he OFFERED to do the things important to her. When a woman constantly applies pressure and never removes it, the man moves away... pure and simple. I don't see where she ever opened up space for him to come towards her UNTIL she just left. I see a LOT that could have been done. Is he that thickheaded... maybe ... my ex was, but I believe that were I am who I am today my past marriage would have turned out different. I am very grateful for my H today because he taught me that love doesn't always "look" like I expect it to look. Therefore tying my expectations too hard core in any one direction will cause me to miss the times he loved me in HIS way. It has stretched me, challenged me and has been a rough road sometimes, but sometimes that rough road was rough because *I* never dropped my preconceived notion of how it needed to go and I rattled and railed and injured MYSELF by not letting go of my "safety nets." I've learned to trust his heart.


----------



## ButtPunch

Blossom Leigh said:


> This thread is getting tiresome. Too much expecting someone else to make us happy. When it's not where it comes from anyway. Can we find joy in others, yes. But expecting others to carry our emotional load is sure fire way for let down and we tie it to SO MANY stupid things AND many times we don't even know WHY we tied it to that in the first place. If there is one thing my marriage has taught me its that no man is designed to carry my entire emotional load and I am not designed to carry any man's entire emotional load. I guarantee you had this woman gotten centered on her own soul instead of looking to him to "fulfill" her, it quite possibly would have affected him to the point where he OFFERED to do the things important to her. When a woman constantly applies pressure and never removes it, the man moves away... pure and simple. I don't see where she ever opened up space for him to come towards her UNTIL she just left. I see a LOT that could have been done. Is he that thickheaded... maybe ... my ex was, but I believe that were I am who I am today my past marriage would have turned out different. I am very grateful for my H today because he taught me that love doesn't always "look" like I expect it to look. Therefore tying my expectations too hard core in any one direction will cause me to miss the times he loved me in HIS way. It has stretched me, challenged me and has been a rough road sometimes, but sometimes that rough road was rough because *I* never dropped my preconceived notion of how it needed to go. I've learned to trust his heart.


I couldn't agree with this more. 

And this story goes both ways there are alot of men who need their wives to do this and that to "fulfill" them too.


----------



## Eagle3

Great post Blossom well thought out and balanced. Probably can shut the thread down. Or we could see it go for another 30 pages giving the same views!!!


----------



## Ms. GP

I agree Blossom. It is a two way street. We can't expect our partners (or any one person for that matter) to meet all of our emotional needs all the time. But what I'm hearing from the post about how he treated her after the child was born, was that he emotionally/physically abandoned her at her weakest moments. That post was absolutely gut wrenching for me to read. I know ppd all to well. The feelings of being overwhelmed and all alone led me down a horrible path of self destruction. I recognize now that my expectations for myself were absolutely unattainable. (I tried to do attachment parenting with a full time job. That's impossible BTW) But I never felt more exhausted, alone, and like a complete failure in my entire life. 
I think when a person systematically abandons you in your weakest moments, your heart can't help but harden over time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eagle3

That is horrible Mrs GP I am sorry you were made to feel that way. Your partner should have been there to help you in your time of struggle not make you feel alone and hurt. I get why your heart would have hardened I hope one day someone will prove worthy for you to let it open and soften up for you again.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ms. GP said:


> I agree Blossom. It is a two way street. We can't expect our partners (or any one person for that matter) to meet all of our emotional needs all the time. But what I'm hearing from the post about how he treated her after the child was born, was that he emotionally/physically abandoned her at her weakest moments. That post was absolutely gut wrenching for me to read. I know ppd all to well. The feelings of being overwhelmed and all alone led me down a horrible path of self destruction. I recognize now that my expectations for myself were absolutely unattainable. (I tried to do attachment parenting with a full time job. That's impossible BTW) But I never felt more exhausted, alone, and like a complete failure in my entire life.
> I think when a person systematically abandons you in your weakest moments, your heart can't help but harden over time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I get that. I've walked that road more times than I care to explain. But humans are limited. And many of us are not willing to accept that and we beat ourselves up trying to deny it and demand different. It takes wisdom to discern the difference.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> This thread is getting tiresome. Too much expecting someone else to make us happy. When it's not where it comes from anyway. Can we find joy in others, yes. But expecting others to carry our emotional load is sure fire way for let down and we tie it to SO MANY stupid things AND many times we don't even know WHY we tied it to that in the first place. If there is one thing my marriage has taught me its that no man is designed to carry my entire emotional load and I am not designed to carry any man's entire emotional load. I guarantee you had this woman gotten centered on her own soul instead of looking to him to "fulfill" her, it quite possibly would have affected him to the point where he OFFERED to do the things important to her. When a woman constantly applies pressure and never removes it, the man moves away... pure and simple. I don't see where she ever opened up space for him to come towards her UNTIL she just left. I see a LOT that could have been done. Is he that thickheaded... maybe ... my ex was, but I believe that were I am who I am today my past marriage would have turned out different. I am very grateful for my H today because he taught me that love doesn't always "look" like I expect it to look. Therefore tying my expectations too hard core in any one direction will cause me to miss the times he loved me in HIS way. It has stretched me, challenged me and has been a rough road sometimes, but sometimes that rough road was rough because *I* never dropped my preconceived notion of how it needed to go and I rattled and railed and injured MYSELF by not letting go of my "safety nets." I've learned to trust his heart.


----------



## Ms. GP

Eagle3 said:


> That is horrible Mrs GP I am sorry you were made to feel that way. Your partner should have been there to help you in your time of struggle not make you feel alone and hurt. I get why your heart would have hardened I hope one day someone will prove worthy for you to let it open and soften up for you again.


That's the thing. Nobody can make you feel anything. That situation was a mixed bag and my side of the street was not entirely clean. I had absolutely unattainable goals and anything less of that was complete failure. I did ask for help with the night feedings, but was told no. Instead of escalating things and demanding help, I felt somehow deep down I deserved this misery and put another brick in the wall of resentment and began to turn to anything to help me escape this misery if only for a brief moment, and that was drugs and alcohol. Completely unhealthy and self destructive. Wolf is right communication is a two way street. I don't see myself as a victim, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ms. GP

Blossom Leigh said:


> I get that. I've walked that road more times than I care to explain. But humans are limited. And many of us are not willing to accept that and we beat ourselves up trying to deny it and demand different. It takes wisdom to discern the difference.


Humans are limited. That is why forgiveness is so important. We only put up with what we think we deserve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> I know what you mean. I love my hb and after almost 11 years still feel I made a great choice. Having said that I do wish he was a little more emotionally suppprtive, but he'd NEVER leave me in the hospital like that. He wouldn't do it if I'd had my knee operated on let alone if I'd just had his child. Especially if I begged him not to go.
> 
> Maybe I should rethink some of my complaints.
> 
> I know I'm not always a picnic to live with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you are a very reasonable person, life. I did not mean at all to minimize your disappointment with him, nor any other woman's disappointment with her husband. I think one of the best ways for husbands to grow is to listen to their wives.

I do think one way I could have made life easier on myself as a mother, especially when my kids were younger, would have been to be more relaxed about . . . everything. 

But in terms of marriage, I think I have had reasonable expectations. And the only other person whose opinion matters on that is Dug.


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> That's the thing. Nobody can make you feel anything. That situation was a mixed bag and my side of the street was not entirely clean. I had absolutely unattainable goals and anything less of that was complete failure. I did ask for help with the night feedings, but was told no. Instead of escalating things and demanding help, I felt somehow deep down I deserved this misery and put another brick in the wall of resentment and began to turn to anything to help me escape this misery if only for a brief moment, and that was drugs and alcohol. Completely unhealthy and self destructive. Wolf is right communication is a two way street. I don't see myself as a victim, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't hurt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, I think that's on him. You coped the best way you knew how. He could have been there for you. He could have prevented a lot of heartache, including his own. 

Of course it hurts. How could it not?


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> Humans are limited. That is why forgiveness is so important. We only put up with what we think we deserve.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or what we think we can get. Trade-offs.


----------



## Marduk

I think the point being made @jld is that you should discuss what is really bothering you - the root cause - not the symptoms which can easily be filtered out as meaningless noise. 

And some introspection before you do so to understand what the problem actually is, because it might just be yourself after all.

And to check your expectations that your spouse should manage your neuroses for you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I think the point being made @jld is that you should discuss what is really bothering you - the root cause - not the symptoms which can easily be filtered out as meaningless noise.
> 
> And some introspection before you do so to understand what the problem actually is, because it might just be yourself after all.
> 
> And to check your expectations that your spouse should manage your neuroses for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not everyone can put their finger right on the problem, Marduk. That is where something like active listening can be helpful.

I think husbands in general could be doing more, emotionally, for their wives. I have seen neglect of wives around me my whole life. And if a wife has to start "escalating" in order to be heard, truly heard, I have to wonder how satisfying the possible change is, anyway.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> Not everyone can put their finger right on the problem, Marduk. That is where something like active listening can be helpful.
> 
> I think husbands in general could be doing more, emotionally, for their wives. I have seen neglect of wives around me my whole life. And if a wife has to start "escalating" in order to be heard, truly heard, I have to wonder how satisfying the possible change is, anyway.


Making an issue about a glass when the real problem was disrespect that occurred a month ago at a party is on the the offended person to clearly articulate. You won't find any men or women who can mind read or active listen through a glass on the counter translates into something that happend a month ago. You deal with the problem, the real problem, not make new ones. That's what adult realtionships are all about. Course all bets are off if you marry a bad person. Not much anyone can do with that.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Not everyone can put their finger right on the problem, Marduk. That is where something like active listening can be helpful.
> 
> I think husbands in general could be doing more, emotionally, for their wives. I have seen neglect of wives around me my whole life. And if a wife has to start "escalating" in order to be heard, truly heard, I have to wonder how satisfying the possible change is, anyway.


If you don't know what the problem is, either do the work figuring that out instead of complaining about random things, or have a conversation with your spouse asking for help getting to the root cause. 

You will never be heard complaining about random things and expecting someone else to figure out and reverse engineer your internal emotional state about random things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> Making an issue about a glass when the real problem was disrespect that occurred a month ago at a party is on the the offended person to clearly articulate. You won't find any men or women who can mind read or active listen through a glass on the counter translates into something that happend a month ago. You deal with the problem, the real problem, not make new ones. That's what adult realtionships are all about. Course all bets are off if you marry a bad person. Not much anyone can do with that.





marduk said:


> If you don't know what the problem is, either do the work figuring that out instead of complaining about random things, or have a conversation with your spouse asking for help getting to the root cause.
> 
> You will never be heard complaining about random things and expecting someone else to figure out and reverse engineer your internal emotional state about random things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I disagree with both of you. My husband does a very good job helping me figure things out when he is tuned in. The problem is that he is not always tuned in.

A little prevention is worth a pound of cure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think a lot of men take their wives for granted.


I think a lot of spouses take each other for granted.

Victim status is no more helpful for one gender than it is the other.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I think a lot of spouses take each other for granted.
> 
> Victim status is no more helpful for one gender than it is the other.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think it could be more harmful for the one who has more to lose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Well, I disagree with both of you. My husband does a very good job helping me figure things out when he is tuned in. The problem is that he is not always tuned in.
> 
> A little prevention is worth a pound of cure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you expect him to manage your internal emotional state, anxieties, and neuroses for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> If you don't know what the problem is, either do the work figuring that out instead of complaining about random things, or have a conversation with your spouse asking for help getting to the root cause.
> 
> You will never be heard complaining about random things and expecting someone else to figure out and reverse engineer your internal emotional state about random things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is true.

But when a person tries to talk about the big things and gets ignored, that frustration has to go somewhere. So it starts popping out over little things like glasses.

Some people complain about the glass without ever talking about the root cause. And some people complain about the glass because every other complaint has been dismissed without a resolution. Those two situations have different solutions, and shouldn't be treated as the same thing.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> And you expect him to manage your internal emotional state, anxieties, and neuroses for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know that I expect management. I do expect support. And I know he is capable of inspiration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> Well, I disagree with both of you. My husband does a very good job helping me figure things out when he is tuned in. The problem is that he is not always tuned in.
> 
> A little prevention is worth a pound of cure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I'm shocked that you disagree with us, To you its all on the husband to figure it out lol. "He is not always tuned in" you say...probably always would be if you let him know what the real issue is. Seems like from you posts he cares about you and what you are concerned about would be heard.

Sorry but marriages are composed of both men and women. And if we aren't going to get on the same page on communication or at least understand how each communicate and what each gender needs to feel heard, respected and validated then you will continue to see the divorce rate climb. I mean we are at what about 50% failure rate so we have room to keep expanding that area :grin2:


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

marduk said:


> I wouldn't expect her to clean it up.
> 
> I'd get to it when I was done with it or it bothered me.


Never mind if it bothered her? You purposely do things that you know bother your spouse?


This line from the dishes guy's other quoted post encapsulates it better, I think.


> A new mother only feels like she has to do everything when her partner doesn’t have her back.


You should always feel that your partner has your back. That's the fundamental truth here. Two adults in a relationship should bolster each other. Your strengths should make up for your partner's weaknesses, AND you should be working on your own weaknesses so that you are not draining your partner's strength.

My ex used to leave stuff lying around the house all the time for me to clean up. On purpose. Never mind that these messes were frequently gross and potentially dangerous, which was why I consistently cleaned them up as soon as I found them. Knowing what I know now, I guess the acts of service love language was a big factor there. My ex felt loved because I cleaned up these messes, and was creating opportunities for me to express my love. But at the time, I was simmering with resentment about every single damn mess, but didn't feel that telling a fellow adult to clean up their own mess, or better still, not make it in the first place, should be necessary. When I got so frustrated that I would communicate my displeasure (probably less than politely, I'll admit), I never saw any changes. As a result, I felt that my partner didn't have my back.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> This is true.
> 
> But when a person tries to talk about the big things and gets ignored, that frustration has to go somewhere. So it starts popping out over little things like glasses.
> 
> Some people complain about the glass without ever talking about the root cause. And some people complain about the glass because every other complaint has been dismissed without a resolution. Those two situations have different solutions, and shouldn't be treated as the same thing.


This is my point. 

You need sufficient introspection to actually fight about what you're fighting about. If you have a valid reasonable complaint, you need to stay on that until a compromise is made, or a resolution, or you accept that a resolution is not to be had. 

You cannot make the fight about random things. Fighting with your spouse 101. 

Otherwise, you've lost your high ground, and your spouse now has a valid complaint about you. 

This is only different in magnitude but not direction from your spouse reusing to work on your sex life, so you have an affair.

You've now made the fight about the unreasonable action of having an affair, rather than the reasonable complaint about your sex life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> I don't know that I expect management. I do expect support. And I know he is capable of inspiration.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What is your definition of inspire? how does he do it? and what has he inspired you to do? can he inspire you to make life long changes or do you require constant inspiration?


(no one expects the Spanish inquisition) :grin2:


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> Well I'm shocked that you disagree with us, To you its all on the husband to figure it out lol. "He is not always tuned in" you say...probably always would be if you let him know what the real issue is. Seems like from you posts he cares about you and what you are concerned about would be heard.
> 
> Sorry but marriages are composed of both men and women. And if we aren't going to get on the same page on communication or at least understand how each communicate and what each gender needs to feel heard, respected and validated then you will continue to see the divorce rate climb. I mean we are at what about 50% failure rate so we have room to keep expanding that area :grin2:


Heard for the moment. But other priorities quickly render him deaf, or amnesiac.

I think the writer is mostly right on with what he is try get to tell men. But it is apparently hard to hear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Never mind if it bothered her? You purposely do things that you know bother your spouse?


I live my life according to my values. I learned the hard way not to let my wife define success or failure for me. 

I work hard to provide. I work hard at home. I'm generally neat and tidy. I work hard to make sure my wife feels loved and valued. 

If I don't think that leaving my water glass by the sink is a big deal, and she does, I don't take this problem on for her.

I'm not going to manage her attachment to silly things like that. If she does, that is her problem to resolve. I will support her in it, but not by sharing her delusion.

Just like I know she would laugh her ass off at me if it were reversed. 

It is my job to be a good provider, be a loving husband, and help her grow in directions she wants to grow. Not play into every little irritation she has in her life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> This is my point.
> 
> You need sufficient introspection to actually fight about what you're fighting about. If you have a valid reasonable complaint, you need to stay on that until a compromise is made, or a resolution, or you accept that a resolution is not to be had.
> 
> You cannot make the fight about random things. Fighting with your spouse 101.
> 
> Otherwise, you've lost your high ground, and your spouse now has a valid complaint about you.
> 
> This is only different in magnitude but not direction from your spouse reusing to work on your sex life, so you have an affair.
> 
> You've now made the fight about the unreasonable action of having an affair, rather than the reasonable complaint about your sex life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Valid? Reasonable?

If she eventually leaves you over whatever her complaints were, you may rethink your judgments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Valid? Reasonable?
> 
> If she eventually leaves you over whatever her complaints were, you may rethink your judgments.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would certainly reconsider my first officer selection criteria.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> Heard for the moment. But other priorities quickly render him deaf, or amnesiac.
> 
> I think the writer is mostly right on with what he is try get to tell men. But it is apparently hard to hear.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well JLD you should of all people appreciate that you and your husband are compatable. That is just so key to any relationship. If you are with someone who won't communicate or isn't capable of making your laundry list of priorities theirs then that is going to be a hard relationship. Relationships are about compromises to my mind. Both sides not just husbands. if you take two good people who value and respect what each other then you avoid these glasses issues all together.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Never mind if it bothered her? You purposely do things that you know bother your spouse?
> 
> 
> This line from the dishes guy's other quoted post encapsulates it better, I think.
> 
> 
> You should always feel that your partner has your back. That's the fundamental truth here. Two adults in a relationship should bolster each other. Your strengths should make up for your partner's weaknesses, AND you should be working on your own weaknesses so that you are not draining your partner's strength.
> 
> My ex used to leave stuff lying around the house all the time for me to clean up. On purpose. Never mind that these messes were frequently gross and potentially dangerous, which was why I consistently cleaned them up as soon as I found them. Knowing what I know now, I guess the acts of service love language was a big factor there. My ex felt loved because I cleaned up these messes, and was creating opportunities for me to express my love. But at the time, I was simmering with resentment about every single damn mess, but didn't feel that telling a fellow adult to clean up their own mess, or better still, not make it in the first place, should be necessary. When I got so frustrated that I would communicate my displeasure (probably less than politely, I'll admit), I never saw any changes. As a result, I felt that my partner didn't have my back.


Because by the time you spoke up, it was so forceful, everyone shut down to self protect. Speak sooner, rather than later and kinder rather than harsher. In our house I say... "hey ya'll let's partner on this for a bit and get this knocked out so we can all go do xyz fun." Works every time. I no longer choose to bottle that crap up and explode on the ones I love. It's unkind.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Heard for the moment. But other priorities quickly render him deaf, or amnesiac.
> 
> I think the writer is mostly right on with what he is try get to tell men. But it is apparently hard to hear.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, we just disagree. Has nothing to do with hard to hear.


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> What is your definition of inspire? how does he do it? and what has he inspired you to do? can he inspire you to make life long changes or do you require constant inspiration?
> 
> 
> (no one expects the Spanish inquisition) :grin2:


Marry him? Have children with him? Trust him for lifelong financial support? Move around the world with him?

He makes reasonable arguments, for sure, but they are undergirded by his love for me and our kids. When I feel loved, actively loved, I am even more open to his influence than usual.

Yes, I need consistent inspiration. I need consistently reasonable arguments and actions to maintain my trust in him and I need to feel loved to believe any of it matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

This all sounds so simple. They need to communicate and listen to each other. Meet each other's needs.

I want to know if what I deal with is normal. Because it really hasn't been talked about here.

Is it normal for needs / issues to change?

My wife is a very tidy person. But, sometimes she is fine with us leaving a few dishes in the sink while we watch a show. Sometimes not, she wants it clean.

I am kind of the same. If there is something I feel like doing, I can leave the dishes for a bit. Sometimes I just clean them up right away. Doesn't really affect me one way or the other.

The difference though is that sometimes, she gets very angry about it. Then the next day, I am cleaning up and she will say, leave that, go watch your hockey game. Then the next day I am told how lazy I am and that all I do is sit and watch hockey.

A few years back, my wife had a lump on her throat. She was getting it checked and she was very worried about it. I offered to go to her appointment with her. She told me it was just an appointment and there was nothing I could do. They were doing tests and she wouldn't know the results for days. So I went to work. Years later, I still hear how I wasn't there to support her.

Is this normal? Doesn't everyone go through this? One day their wife is in a good mood and nothing is bothering her. A couple of hours later, a dirty glass can almost end the marriage.


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> This is my point.
> 
> You need sufficient introspection to actually fight about what you're fighting about. If you have a valid reasonable complaint, you need to stay on that until a compromise is made, or a resolution, or you accept that a resolution is not to be had.


Unfortunately, the emotional part of us makes rationally accepting that there is no solution to be very difficult. Accepting that my husband had no ill will, but would never offer me any kind of support, was one of the most difficult things I've ever done. So I hung around and fought over housework for a while, hoping he would prove me wrong. But he didn't, so I left, just as the author's wife did.

Emotions aren't rational, they don't respond to reason.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I don't know that I expect management. I do expect support. And I know he is capable of inspiration.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh?

And what is expecting inspiration to do what you already know you should do except seeking external validation and management?

Which do you complain about, the glass by the sink, or that you don't feel loved, or that you have an unhealthy attachment to the glass?

Or do you just lose your **** on him and expect him to sort it out and make it all better?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> Unfortunately, the emotional part of us makes rationally accepting that there is no solution to be very difficult. Accepting that my husband had no ill will, but would never offer me any kind of support, was one of the most difficult things I've ever done. So I hung around and fought over housework for a while, hoping he would prove me wrong. But he didn't, so I left, just as the author's wife did.
> 
> Emotions aren't rational, they don't respond to reason.


Actually, emotions are one of our oldest mental structures, and are actually one of our most rational features. 

You just need to get ego and social convention out of the way to understand it.

In other words, the deep emotional introspection and clarity that is the hallmark of a mature adult.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> I think the point being made @jld is that you should discuss what is really bothering you - the root cause - not the symptoms which can easily be filtered out as meaningless noise.


I was reading some of this thread and something tickled at the back of my mind. What is "meaningless noise"? This is the crux of what I take away from the article. When I ask DH to put a dryer sheet in the dryer so that the laundry does not come out covered still in animal hair, I explain it is so I don't have to rewash the clothes. I can't wear clothes covered in dog hair to work. We verbally agree that we are a partnership. We share the work. So then what happens when he "remembers" to put the drier sheet in about 25% of the time? I nag him again? He LOVES that. I rewash the clothes? Again. Sigh.

Multiply that by the rework incumbent on me on the various other things. For him, each individual instance is "no big deal". What's the "big deal"??!!?? For him, meaningless noise. But on balance and pattern, it amounts to disrespect of my time an energy. My recourse is to do my own damned laundry and let him do his. Not satisfying. And when he notices, he will be pissed, like I am treating him like some kind of child. Sigh.

I get it. I can ask him to do something (like laundry) or (edited holy moly so did not fit there) I can't ask him how to do it (like drier sheet). But I get better response from my children who are like ... oh yeah hey that would be helpful to Mom, I think I will do that.

It is not the drier sheet. It is the feeling that he can determine what constitutes "partnership" or "meaningless noise" simply by ignoring anything he doesn't want to deal with until the next time I "just tell him". It's just easier to do the damned laundry (or dishes, or driveway, or painting or...)





> And some introspection before you do so to understand what the problem actually is, because it might just be yourself after all.


Myself can choose to live with it. Mitigate the irritation by doing the vast majority of the **** myself and let him do the **** I don't care about. That is why the floor is currently absolutely disgusting. Sigh.

And you know what? He'd "get it" if I walked out the door. Just like this guy did. Why does it take walking out the door? Oh urm duh, now I get it!


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> Well JLD you should of all people appreciate that you and your husband are compatable. That is just so key to any relationship. If you are with someone who won't communicate or isn't capable of making your laundry list of priorities theirs then that is going to be a hard relationship. Relationships are about compromises to my mind. Both sides not just husbands. if you take two good people who value and respect what each other then you avoid these glasses issues all together.


I can certainly believe I have high expectations. That does make them invalid or unreasonable. Just makes them more effort for him, which he tells me makes him grow.

I would guess the writer, looking back, would agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think it could be more harmful for the one who has more to lose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which again has nothing to do with gender.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Because by the time you spoke up, it was so forceful, everyone shut down to self protect. Speak sooner, rather than later and kinder rather than harsher. In our house I say... "hey ya'll let's partner on this for a bit and get this knocked out so we can all go do xyz fun." Works every time. I no longer choose to bottle that crap up and explode on the ones I love. It's unkind.


Do you think the first five times or so that a woman speaks up on an issue, it is not in a kind manner?

Blossom, not every woman has the same influence on their husband that you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

SadSamIAm said:


> This all sounds so simple. They need to communicate and listen to each other. Meet each other's needs.
> 
> I want to know if what I deal with is normal. Because it really hasn't been talked about here.
> 
> Is it normal for needs / issues to change?
> 
> My wife is a very tidy person. But, sometimes she is fine with us leaving a few dishes in the sink while we watch a show. Sometimes not, she wants it clean.
> 
> I am kind of the same. If there is something I feel like doing, I can leave the dishes for a bit. Sometimes I just clean them up right away. Doesn't really affect me one way or the other.
> 
> The difference though is that sometimes, she gets very angry about it. Then the next day, I am cleaning up and she will say, leave that, go watch your hockey game. Then the next day I am told how lazy I am and that all I do is sit and watch hockey.
> 
> A few years back, my wife had a lump on her throat. She was getting it checked and she was very worried about it. I offered to go to her appointment with her. She told me it was just an appointment and there was nothing I could do. They were doing tests and she wouldn't know the results for days. So I went to work. Years later, I still hear how I wasn't there to support her.
> 
> Is this normal? Doesn't everyone go through this? One day their wife is in a good mood and nothing is bothering her. A couple of hours later, a dirty glass can almost end the marriage.


I can't speak to normal but what you do with it is key. Are you tolerating that or letting her know that isn't ok. To me the simplest solution is to let the most invested party take care of the thing they are most invested in so they have no room to complain.

Real example

My GF, whom I live with, has a freaking weird quirk about the dish washer. Don't ask me why, I don't get it she just does. To her mind it has to be loaded a very particular way and anyway I tried to load it wasn't good enough. First couple of months she picked at the way I loaded it. Tried explaining how little a thing it was but it was her thing and she wasn't going to let it go. Finally one day we are loading the dish washer and she starts in again, I calmly took out the three dishes I put in, wrong apparently :wink2:, and walked out of the room. She finished then came in and asked if I was mad. I said no, and I wasn't, but I then said I won't be loading the dishwasher anymore that will be her job since she is way more invested in that then I am. I will from now on unload since apparently we can agree on where the dishes go when dried lol.

So we both do our share but different tasks. 8 month later I have not put anything in that dishwasher and she hasn't unloaded it once. Guess how many fights we have had about it. None


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Do you think the first five times or so that a woman speaks up on an issue, it is not in a kind manner?
> 
> Blossom, not every woman has the same influence on their husband that you do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh please.... I had to LEARN how to have influence on my husband.

Why else do you think I can just about "man speak" around here and the guys around here can tell that I "get it."


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> I can certainly believe I have high expectations. That does make them invalid or unreasonable. Just makes them more effort for hm, which he tells me makes him grow.
> 
> I would guess the writer, looking back, would agree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And he is willing to go through that journey with you. Many men would not.


----------



## Fozzy

Blossom Leigh said:


> This thread is getting tiresome. Too much expecting someone else to make us happy. When it's not where it comes from anyway. Can we find joy in others, yes. But expecting others to carry our emotional load is sure fire way for let down and we tie it to SO MANY stupid things AND many times we don't even know WHY we tied it to that in the first place. If there is one thing my marriage has taught me its that no man is designed to carry my entire emotional load and I am not designed to carry any man's entire emotional load. I guarantee you had this woman gotten centered on her own soul instead of looking to him to "fulfill" her, it quite possibly would have affected him to the point where he OFFERED to do the things important to her. When a woman constantly applies pressure and never removes it, the man moves away... pure and simple. I don't see where she ever opened up space for him to come towards her UNTIL she just left. I see a LOT that could have been done. Is he that thickheaded... maybe ... my ex was, but I believe that were I am who I am today my past marriage would have turned out different. I am very grateful for my H today because he taught me that love doesn't always "look" like I expect it to look. Therefore tying my expectations too hard core in any one direction will cause me to miss the times he loved me in HIS way. It has stretched me, challenged me and has been a rough road sometimes, but sometimes that rough road was rough because *I* never dropped my preconceived notion of how it needed to go and I rattled and railed and injured MYSELF by not letting go of my "safety nets." I've learned to trust his heart.



Bravo Blossom.

Expectations are poison to marriage.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> I was reading some of this thread and something tickled at the back of my mind. What is "meaningless noise"? This is the crux of what I take away from the article. When I ask DH to put a dryer sheet in the dryer so that the laundry does not come out covered still in animal hair, I explain it is so I don't have to rewash the clothes. I can't wear clothes covered in dog hair to work. We verbally agree that we are a partnership. We share the work. So then what happens when he "remembers" to put the drier sheet in about 25% of the time? I nag him again? He LOVES that. I rewash the clothes? Again. Sigh.
> 
> Multiply that by the rework incumbent on me on the various other things. For him, each individual instance is "no big deal". What's the "big deal"??!!?? For him, meaningless noise. But on balance and pattern, it amounts to disrespect of my time an energy. My recourse is to do my own damned laundry and let him do his. Not satisfying. And when he notices, he will be pissed, like I am treating him like some kind of child. Sigh.
> 
> I get it. I can ask him to do something (like laundry) or (edited holy moly so did not fit there) I can't ask him how to do it (like drier sheet). But I get better response from my children who are like ... oh yeah hey that would be helpful to Mom, I think I will do that.
> 
> It is not the drier sheet. It is the feeling that he can determine what constitutes "partnership" or "meaningless noise" simply by ignoring anything he doesn't want to deal with until the next time I "just tell him". It's just easier to do the damned laundry (or dishes, or driveway, or painting or...)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Myself can choose to live with it. Mitigate the irritation by doing the vast majority of the **** myself and let him do the **** I don't care about. That is why the floor is currently absolutely disgusting. Sigh.
> 
> And you know what? He'd "get it" if I walked out the door. Just like this guy did. Why does it take walking out the door? Oh urm duh, now I get it!


Is the dryer sheet issue an isolated situation or is it systemic?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> Do you think the first five times or so that a woman speaks up on an issue, it is not in a kind manner?
> 
> *Blossom, not every woman has the same influence on their husband that you do.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the ultimate pot and kettle. Not every man as the same influence your husband has over you. We are not all the same

I would venture that women and wives have plenty more influence on their husbands than vice versa


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Is the dryer sheet issue an isolated situation or is it systemic?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Multiply that by the rework incumbent on me on the various other things."

The funny thing is I only care when other things are going less well.


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> I can't speak to normal but what you do with it is key. Are you tolerating that or letting her know that isn't ok. To me the simplest solution is to let the most invested party take care of the thing they are most invested in so they have no room to complain.
> 
> Real example
> 
> My GF, whom I live with, has a freaking weird quirk about the dish washer. Don't ask me why, I don't get it she just does. To her mind it has to be loaded a very particular way and anyway I tried to load it wasn't good enough. First couple of months she picked at the way I loaded it. Tried explaining how little a thing it was but it was her thing and she wasn't going to let it go. Finally one day we are loading the dish washer and she starts in again, I calmly took out the three dishes I put in, wrong apparently :wink2:, and walked out of the room. She finished then came in and asked if I was mad. I said no, and I wasn't, but I then said I won't be loading the dishwasher anymore that will be her job since she is way more invested in that then I am. I will from now on unload since apparently we can agree on where the dishes go when dried lol.
> 
> So we both do our share but different tasks. 8 month later I have not put anything in that dishwasher and she hasn't unloaded it once. Guess how many fights we have had about it. None


That's exactly how my wife and I resolve such issues, and we haven't fought about domestic duties in years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> "Multiply that by the rework incumbent on me on the various other things."
> 
> The funny thing is I only care when other things are going less well.


Which is my point. 

What are you not getting in order to accept that he will never care about dryer sheets the way you do?

We have all seen people happily in love overlook a myriad of annoyances. Why is that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> This all sounds so simple. They need to communicate and listen to each other. Meet each other's needs.
> 
> I want to know if what I deal with is normal. Because it really hasn't been talked about here.
> 
> Is it normal for needs / issues to change?
> 
> My wife is a very tidy person. But, sometimes she is fine with us leaving a few dishes in the sink while we watch a show. Sometimes not, she wants it clean.
> 
> I am kind of the same. If there is something I feel like doing, I can leave the dishes for a bit. Sometimes I just clean them up right away. Doesn't really affect me one way or the other.
> 
> The difference though is that sometimes, she gets very angry about it. Then the next day, I am cleaning up and she will say, leave that, go watch your hockey game. Then the next day I am told how lazy I am and that all I do is sit and watch hockey.
> 
> A few years back, my wife had a lump on her throat. She was getting it checked and she was very worried about it. I offered to go to her appointment with her. She told me it was just an appointment and there was nothing I could do. They were doing tests and she wouldn't know the results for days. So I went to work. Years later, I still hear how I wasn't there to support her.
> 
> Is this normal? Doesn't everyone go through this? One day their wife is in a good mood and nothing is bothering her. A couple of hours later, a dirty glass can almost end the marriage.


Yes, I would say some of that is normal. Not ideal, but not unheard of. 

Communication, started by you, using something like active listening, should help. Be able to hear anything she says. 

Try to make a mutually agreeable plan to address discontent earlier next time. Hold her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

Wolf1974 said:


> I can't speak to normal but what you do with it is key. Are you tolerating that or letting her know that isn't ok. To me the simplest solution is to let the most invested party take care of the thing they are most invested in so they have no room to complain.
> 
> Real example
> 
> My GF, whom I live with, has a freaking weird quirk about the dish washer. Don't ask me why, I don't get it she just does. To her mind it has to be loaded a very particular way and anyway I tried to load it wasn't good enough. First couple of months she picked at the way I loaded it. Tried explaining how little a thing it was but it was her thing and she wasn't going to let it go. Finally one day we are loading the dish washer and she starts in again, I calmly took out the three dishes I put in, wrong apparently :wink2:, and walked out of the room. She finished then came in and asked if I was mad. I said no, and I wasn't, but I then said I won't be loading the dishwasher anymore that will be her job since she is way more invested in that then I am. I will from now on unload since apparently we can agree on where the dishes go when dried lol.
> 
> So we both do our share but different tasks. 8 month later I have not put anything in that dishwasher and she hasn't unloaded it once. Guess how many fights we have had about it. None


My wife has the same issue with the dishwasher. She packs it a certain way. I do it wrong. 

I have told her that if she is that particular about it, then do it herself. But that still doesn't stop her from complaining about me not doing it.

This is typical for many things. Being criticized all the time just shuts a person down. And then you get criticized for not communicating.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> My wife has the same issue with the dishwasher. She packs it a certain way. I do it wrong.
> 
> I have told her that if she is that particular about it, then do it herself. But that still doesn't stop her from complaining about me not doing it.
> 
> This is typical for many things. Being criticized all the time just shuts a person down. And then you get criticized for not communicating.


"Listen wife, this is getting tired. Do you want me to do the dishes, or do you need them done your way? Because you're not going to get both."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> That's exactly how my wife and I resolve such issues, and we haven't fought about domestic duties in years.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But your wife could be steaming everytime she is doing the domestic chore because you aren't doing it. You refused to do it her way. 

You say you aren't fighting, but the resentment is probably growing.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Oh?
> 
> And what is expecting inspiration to do what you already know you should do except seeking external validation and management?
> 
> Which do you complain about, the glass by the sink, or that you don't feel loved, or that you have an unhealthy attachment to the glass?
> 
> Or do you just lose your **** on him and expect him to sort it out and make it all better?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It would not come to that if he would listen in the first place.

But that of course is more work. At least initially.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

SadSamIAm said:


> My wife has the same issue with the dishwasher. She packs it a certain way. I do it wrong.
> 
> I have told her that if she is that particular about it, then do it herself. But that still doesn't stop her from complaining about me not doing it.
> 
> This is typical for many things. Being criticized all the time just shuts a person down. And then you get criticized for not communicating.


Do you unload then all the time? How can you have an argument about that? you're part and she is doing hers. Just keep reminding her you load I unload remember. 

I would tell her exactly what you told us. That you are shutting down because of the constant criticism


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Actually, emotions are one of our oldest mental structures, and are actually one of our most rational features.
> 
> You just need to get ego and social convention out of the way to understand it.
> 
> In other words, the deep emotional introspection and clarity that is the hallmark of a mature adult.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This post, and maybe the whole discussion, reminds me of that "Why can't a woman be more like a man?" scene from _My Fair Lady._
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> But your wife could be steaming everytime she is doing the domestic chore because you aren't doing it. You refused to do it her way.
> 
> You say you aren't fighting, but the resentment is probably growing.


No, I go and do other things that need doing. 

I spend very little non-productive time at home unless it's with her. 

And if I'm honestly working my ass off getting things done that need doing, and she's resentful, that's her problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> It would not come to that if he would listen in the first place.
> 
> But that of course is more work. At least initially.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, the world would be such a grand place if everybody would just listen to you in the first place.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Oh please.... I had to LEARN how to have influence on my husband.
> 
> Why else do you think I can just about "man speak" around here and the guys around here can tell that I "get it."


Not every woman can be that way, Blossom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Which is my point.
> 
> What are you not getting in order to accept that he will never care about dryer sheets the way you do?


I don't care about his feelings on dryer sheets. I care about his actions belying his words which results in a lot of effort for me. Like it or not, that FEELS like rampant disrespect. All this whooey about communication is just that. One cannot have it both ways. Communicate by jesum! But when you do, recognize that I am going to find the majority of what you say as meaningless noise.




> We have all seen people happily in love overlook a myriad of annoyances. Why is that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because the good outweighs the bad. When it is me, I don't think, gee how much can I get away with because the good is enough to outweigh the bad. When the time comes, as with the woman in this article, the good does not outweigh the bad, the dude went, well ****, I wish I had not been making all those utterly useless withdrawals from the love bank of a stupid

cup
dryer sheet
lack of sex
child care issues

or whatever.

And you may feel free to substitute any she for he and vice versa in here and my point remains.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> This post, and maybe the whole discussion, reminds me of that "Why can't a woman be more like a man?" scene from _My Fair Lady._
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Women are as capable of men of emotional maturity and rational thought.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Wolf1974 said:


> Do you unload then all the time? How can you have an argument about that? you're part and she is doing hers. Just keep reminding her you load I unload remember.
> 
> I would tell her exactly what you told us. That you are shutting down because of the constant criticism


I unload a fair amount. My wife is a SAHS, so she is there most of the time and does most of the domestic chores. 

When we are getting along. We do the cleanup together. I put the plates, glasses and cutlery in the dishwasher (because you can't screw that up). I leave the bowls and odd shaped things for her. She believes she can get more in and everything still comes out clean. I don't see a difference when I do it, but I don't tell her that.

Yes, I have told her that that. Same issue. Sometimes she is in a good mood and agrees that she is unreasonable at times. Sometimes she tells me I am being a baby.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't care about his feelings on dryer sheets. *I care about his actions belying his words which results in a lot of effort for me.* Like it or not, that FEELS like rampant disrespect. All this whooey about communication is just that. One cannot have it both ways. Communicate by jesum! But when you do, recognize that I am going to find the majority of what you say as meaningless noise.


If this is true, your husband lacks honour and integrity, and that's the conversation that you need to have.

If a man (or woman) does not live up to his (or her) word, they are nothing. And I would take such a conversation very seriously.


----------



## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> Women are as capable of men of emotional maturity and rational thought.


Frequently more so.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> Not every man as the same influence your husband has over you.


Now this we can agree on. If there is anything I should have learned by now on TAM, it is this. And yet it is still not part of my default thinking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> "Listen wife, this is getting tired. Do you want me to do the dishes, or do you need them done your way? Because you're not going to get both."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds simple. Again, it is all about moods.

One day she would understand my point of view. One day she has no problem with the way I load the dishwasher. 

The next day I am a total moron because I put the bowl in 'that way'.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I unload a fair amount. My wife is a SAHS, so she is there most of the time and does most of the domestic chores.
> 
> When we are getting along. We do the cleanup together. I put the plates, glasses and cutlery in the dishwasher (because you can't screw that up). I leave the bowls and odd shaped things for her. She believes she can get more in and everything still comes out clean. I don't see a difference when I do it, but I don't tell her that.
> 
> Yes, I have told her that that. Same issue. Sometimes she is in a good mood and agrees that she is unreasonable at times. Sometimes she tells me I am being a baby.


If I heard that last line, I'd leave the room and never touch the dishes again.

I'd probably go and do something like work on the car or dig a hole in the backyard or something. Something only I could do.


----------



## Wolf1974

SadSamIAm said:


> I unload a fair amount. My wife is a SAHS, so she is there most of the time and does most of the domestic chores.
> 
> When we are getting along. We do the cleanup together. I put the plates, glasses and cutlery in the dishwasher (because you can't screw that up). I leave the bowls and odd shaped things for her. She believes she can get more in and everything still comes out clean. I don't see a difference when I do it, but I don't tell her that.
> 
> Yes, I have told her that that. Same issue. Sometimes she is in a good mood and agrees that she is unreasonable at times. Sometimes she tells me I am being a baby.


Wow. A baby cause you aren't doing things her way. 


I got nothing man. Sorry I couldn't tolerate that


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> Sounds simple. Again, it is all about moods.
> 
> One day she would understand my point of view. One day she has no problem with the way I load the dishwasher.
> 
> The next day I am a total moron because I put the bowl in 'that way'.


You are a slave to her emotional tantrums.

Do you want to be free?

Do you know the astounding respect that comes from women when you don't play into this kind of thing?


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> Now this we can agree on. If there is anything I should have learned by now on TAM, it is this. And yet it is still not part of my default thinking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First step to address a problem JLD is recognition of its existence right


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> But your wife could be steaming everytime she is doing the domestic chore because you aren't doing it. You refused to do it her way.
> 
> You say you aren't fighting, but the resentment is probably growing.


Food for thought, Marduk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Not every woman can be that way, Blossom.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think its more accurate to say that not every woman *wants* to be that way because just about every woman I've ever met totally possesses the capacity for it, they just don't. The want to isnt big enough.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> Frequently more so.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Especially when sick. I'm just getting over the flu, and holy crap do I become a five year old.

My wife took great care of me and tolerated me a lot. Until about day four, when she told me it was time for me to get better because she'd had enough.

Which I can respect. Especially now, when she's getting sick and handling it far better than I did.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Oh, the world would be such a grand place if everybody would just listen to you in the first place.


Hmm. Not a bad idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Food for thought, Marduk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife resents me for a great many things. Some very valid.

She also internalizes almost zero of her emotional state. If she resented me over housework, I'd have heard about it by now.

She also brags about me a lot to her friends. Even jokingly, when she says that I won't touch the vacuuming because she complained about me doing it wrong.

Funny, huh?


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> If this is true, your husband lacks honour and integrity, and that's the conversation that you need to have.
> 
> If a man (or woman) does not live up to his (or her) word, they are nothing. And I would take such a conversation very seriously.


That's a load of poo. Like small issues like dryer sheets and division of labor, integrity is measured on balance. Not one of us has a perfect rap sheet in this regard. I am not going to toss his perfect record in other regards because he is a flake on some matters. He does not tell me he is going to put in dryer sheets with the intent to not do it. The conversation of what constitutes useless noise and what constitutes no frickin really is a lifelong conversation. Because TO HIM doing one more load of laundry is ... just not a big deal in the big scheme of things. I hear that. He hears my feelings. Rinse repeat. Since it is native to neither of us, it will likely never go away. And for the most part, it is just the background of life.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Women are as capable of men of emotional maturity and rational thought.


No one said they were not. It may just be defined differently than you would.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> That's a load of poo. Like small issues like dryer sheets and division of labor, integrity is measured on balance. Not one of us has a perfect rap sheet in this regard. I am not going to toss his perfect record in other regards because he is a flake on some matters. He does not tell me he is going to put in dryer sheets with the intent to not do it. The conversation of what constitutes useless noise and what constitutes no frickin really is a lifelong conversation. Because TO HIM doing one more load of laundry is ... just not a big deal in the big scheme of things. I hear that. He hears my feelings. Rinse repeat. Since it is native to neither of us, it will likely never go away. And for the most part, it is just the background of life.


If I say I will do something, I will do it. End of story. No exceptions. It doesn't matter if it's a dryer sheet or paying the mortgage. It gets done. Or I don't say it will get done.

And if it's a load of poo, then why did you bring it up in the first place? If he has a spotless record with integrity and honour, then why did you say it bothers you?

Why are you defending him now, and complaining about him before?

Because if what you say is true, then what's the problem?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> No one said they were not. It may just be defined differently than you would.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you think it's an optional choice for women?


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> If I say I will do something, I will do it. End of story. No exceptions. It doesn't matter if it's a dryer sheet or paying the mortgage. It gets done. Or I don't say it will get done.


Yay for you!



> And if it's a load of poo, then why did you bring it up in the first place? If he has a spotless record with integrity and honour, then why did you say it bothers you?


I did not say he has a perfect record, did I? I said quite the opposite. I certainly don't have a perfect record. There is no human that does. The best of us strive for it but fail often.

Today it bothers me because I am in a pissy mood. But for the most part I was expressing an understanding of what the author was saying. If DH was not making deposits in the love bank and was not a pretty terrific person, the weight would tip to the other side of the scale.



> Why are you defending him now, and complaining about him before?
> 
> Because if what you say is true, then what's the problem?


Your understanding, apparently.


----------



## Fozzy

oh snap. it's on.

/popcorn


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> You are a slave to her emotional tantrums.
> 
> Do you want to be free?
> 
> Do you know the astounding respect that comes from women when you don't play into this kind of thing?


As the thread goes. The issue isn't about the dishwasher.

I think the issue is mostly about power and about how my wife isn't very happy with her life. 

We have been planning to go on a ski trip. Work has gotten too busy, so I can't go. She is going with two of our kids and their partners. This morning when I left for work I said goodbye and , "I hope you have a good time."

She said, "No you don't, you are just happy I will be away for a few days." I hate to admit that she is right.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Yay for you!
> 
> 
> I did not say he has a perfect record, did I? I said quite the opposite. I certainly don't have a perfect record. There is no human that does. The best of us strive for it but fail often.
> 
> *Today it bothers me because I am in a pissy mood.* But for the most part I was expressing an understanding of what the author was saying. If DH was not making deposits in the love bank and was not a pretty terrific person, the weight would tip to the other side of the scale.
> 
> 
> 
> Your understanding, apparently.


I'm baffled.

Now the problem is your mood?


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> I'm baffled.
> 
> Now the problem is your mood?


There is no problem. I was expressing understanding of the author's wife's feelings. I explained my understanding with an example from my own life. I then explained why it is not a problem due to the balance in the love bank. I then added some humor, which was apparently lost. As was all the content except for the joking comment about my mood.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Do you think it's an optional choice for women?


I don't think your definition is the universal definition. I think women are plenty emotionally mature and rationally thoughtful.

The challenge, to me, is that many men seem to have a hearing, or comprehension, problem.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I don't think your definition is the universal definition. I think women are plenty emotionally mature and rationally thoughtful.
> 
> The challenge, to me, is that many men seem to have a hearing, or comprehension, problem.


I don't think men have a hearing or comprehension problem. I think we have basic differences in filter and priority.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> As the thread goes. The issue isn't about the dishwasher.
> 
> I think the issue is mostly about power and about how my wife isn't very happy with her life.
> 
> We have been planning to go on a ski trip. Work has gotten too busy, so I can't go. She is going with two of our kids and their partners. This morning when I left for work I said goodbye and , "I hope you have a good time."
> 
> She said, "No you don't, you are just happy I will be away for a few days." I hate to admit that she is right.


What isn't she happy about?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I don't think your definition is the universal definition. I think women are plenty emotionally mature and rationally thoughtful.
> 
> The challenge, to me, is that many men seem to have a hearing, or comprehension, problem.


Well, obviously, based on my confusion with NobodySpecial's posts.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Well, obviously, based on my confusion with NobodySpecial's posts.


You never listen!  I do think it is a little funny that you ignored the entire content of the posts in favor of a comment on mood.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> You never listen!  I do think it is a little funny that you ignored the entire content of the posts in favor of a comment on mood.


I was honestly trying to filter it for what was really bothering you.

And since nothing was really bothering you, I was coming up with all kinds of false positives.

Which is probably why I don't listen much to such things in my marriage after all.

Besides, you girls are so cute when you're in a mood and have your back up about something that it's hard to pay attention to anything else.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> You never listen!  I do think it is a little funny that you ignored the entire content of the posts in favor of a comment on mood.


That filter and priority issue?

I don't know. I think some of them truly do not understand, and some of them understand, but do not want to do anything about it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> I was honestly trying to filter it for what was really bothering you.
> 
> And since nothing was really bothering you, I was coming up with all kinds of false positives.


I am curious. Why did you not read what was written?


> Which is probably why I don't listen much to such things in my marriage after all.
> 
> *Besides, you girls are so cute when you're in a moo*d and have your back up about something that it's hard to pay attention to anything else.


Sicking up all over Marduk, the patronizing MANLY MAN. He thumps chest now.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think men have a hearing or comprehension problem. I think we have basic differences in filter and priority.


Many women not only don't get this, the unfortunate truth is many don't care. It would be wise to understand, accept and appreciate the difference.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> That filter and priority issue?


Filter. I am MAN. Must interpret woman. Ogggh.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> That filter and priority issue?
> 
> I don't know. I think some of them truly do not understand, and some of them understand, but do not want to do anything about it.


Because sometimes it would be unwise to do so.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> If I say I will do something, I will do it. End of story. No exceptions. It doesn't matter if it's a dryer sheet or paying the mortgage. It gets done. Or I don't say it will get done.
> 
> And if it's a load of poo, then why did you bring it up in the first place? If he has a spotless record with integrity and honour, then why did you say it bothers you?
> 
> Why are you defending him now, and complaining about him before?
> 
> Because if what you say is true, then what's the problem?



I don't believe you. There are many things that I say I will do, but sometimes I just plain forget. Mostly I don't notice. 

My wife will mention that a light bulb needs to be replaced. I totally intend to do it. But I forget and don't notice the burned out bulb. A couple of days later I am in trouble.

It isn't that a person maliciously doesn't do something on purpose. They simply forget. That particular thing just isn't very important to them (no matter how badly they want it to be to please their spouse). 

The difference is that some people hold this over their spouse and some people realize it is human nature and there is no reason to get upset over it.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> I don't think your definition is the universal definition. I think women are plenty emotionally mature and rationally thoughtful.
> 
> The challenge, to me, is that many men seem to have a hearing, or comprehension, problem.


Just because we don't see it as you doesn't mean we don't comprehend it


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> Just because we don't see it as you doesn't mean we don't comprehend it


I think some of you don't understand it, truly. And some of you do, but reject it, for various reasons, none of which I personally would accept as valid.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> I am curious. Why did you not read what was written?


That hearing issue again?



> Sicking up all over Marduk, the patronizing MANLY MAN. He thumps chest now.


His comment was patronizing. I agree with that and the sicking up part.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't believe you. There are many things that I say I will do, but sometimes I just plain forget. Mostly I don't notice.
> 
> My wife will mention that a light bulb needs to be replaced. I totally intend to do it. But I forget and don't notice the burned out bulb. A couple of days later I am in trouble.


This one makes me chuckle every time. Remembering being a consistent problem for DH, he does nor remedy. He does not
- Get up from his game and do it right then.
- Write himself a post it note.
- Put a task in his calendar.
- Email himself a reminder.

Any of which he would do it it was work. How is this hard?



> It isn't that a person maliciously doesn't do something on purpose. They simply forget. That particular thing just isn't very important to them (no matter how badly they want it to be to please their spouse).
> 
> The difference is that some people hold this over their spouse and some people realize it is human nature and there is no reason to get upset over it.


In your case, there is SOMETHING going on that does not allow the two of you to make meaningful deposits in each others love banks. Thus the scales are tipping in the wrong way. You don't remedy the small things you can. She does not get over herself. Why would you? The scales are in the position where you feel more like making a case for what a bad person the other one is.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't believe you. There are many things that I say I will do, but sometimes I just plain forget. Mostly I don't notice.


I went on the warpath with this in my life some years ago.

It did two things: it made me really clear and intentional about what I commit to, and gave people around me the ability to trust me.

I forget things sometimes, too. But I've also become a GTD fanatic, so that this of things is usually pretty short.

But I've had my fair share of remembering to do something in the middle of the night, and my commitment to do it, and getting up to get it done because I said it would be done.



> My wife will mention that a light bulb needs to be replaced. I totally intend to do it. But I forget and don't notice the burned out bulb. A couple of days later I am in trouble.


Did you say you will do it and then not do it?

That's the root of the problem. 

Take a picture of the light with your phone and stick it into a reminder that goes off when you're at a point to do it. Or just get up and do it right then and there.


> It isn't that a person maliciously doesn't do something on purpose. They simply forget. That particular thing just isn't very important to them (no matter how badly they want it to be to please their spouse).


Personal commitments matter. The size of them doesn't matter. And it doesn't mean you can't renegotiate them.

"Wife, I'll get to the light in a couple days -- I'm kind of busy with the basement flooding after all."



> The difference is that some people hold this over their spouse and some people realize it is human nature and there is no reason to get upset over it.


I have found that if I hold myself to a very high standard, people suddenly stop judging me for this kind of stuff at all. 

But you have to live up to your commitments.


----------



## jld

If this were not such an important issue, some of this back and forth might be amusing. But marriages are lost because women do not feel heard, do not feel loved. They file much more often than men, and this is surely a big part of the reason.


----------



## Wolf1974

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't believe you. There are many things that I say I will do, but sometimes I just plain forget. Mostly I don't notice.
> 
> My wife will mention that a light bulb needs to be replaced. I totally intend to do it. But I forget and don't notice the burned out bulb. A couple of days later I am in trouble.
> 
> It isn't that a person maliciously doesn't do something on purpose. They simply forget. That particular thing just isn't very important to them (no matter how badly they want it to be to please their spouse).
> 
> The difference is that some people hold this over their spouse and some people realize it is human nature and there is no reason to get upset over it.


That maybe your personality type but I also will do what I say and less than 1% of the time would I forget. Matter of fact can't think of a single example. Reason being is that to me doing what I say and keeping my word is a high priority for me so if I say I will do something I will get it done barring some other incident that gets in the way. But just forget not happening.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> That hearing issue again?
> 
> 
> 
> His comment was patronizing. I agree with that and the sicking up part.


Oh, I see.

Only women get to joke now.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

marduk said:


> If this is true, your husband lacks honour and integrity, and that's the conversation that you need to have.
> 
> If a man (or woman) does not live up to his (or her) word, they are nothing. And I would take such a conversation very seriously.


Wish my ex had!


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> If this were not such an important issue, some of this back and forth might be amusing. But marriages are lost because women do not feel heard, do not feel loved. They file much more often than men, and this is surely a big part of the reason.


This hands down is one of the more common sense thing you have said. Now if only you could look past its all on men to fix it we might actually get somewhere. But so long as we don't then like I said we have room to expand on the divorce rate.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> I think some of you don't understand it, truly. And some of you do, but reject it, for various reasons, none of which I personally would accept as valid.


This is your opinion and your opinion only JLD. So long as you continue to hold your opinion as superior to all others you won't learn or change a thing. But by all means continue :smile2:


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Wolf1974 said:


> This hands down is one of the more common sense thing you have said. Now if only you could look past its all on men to fix it we might actually get somewhere. But so long as we don't then like I said we have room to expand on the divorce rate.


I cant believe people bother arguing with her any more, her mind is closed as a steel trap. Just because the whole weird dynamic of her being submissive to her husband works for HER, she thinks that this is the way the world actually works, and it isn't. She lives in a bubble and it is beyond frustrating to the rest of us.


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> This one makes me chuckle every time. Remembering being a consistent problem for DH, he does nor remedy. He does not
> - Get up from his game and do it right then.
> - Write himself a post it note.
> - Put a task in his calendar.
> - Email himself a reminder.
> 
> Any of which he would do it it was work. How is this hard?


It isn't hard. It is dead easy. If the light bulb was important to me, there is no way I would ask my wife to change it. I would just do it.

The room has 6 bulbs in it. I don't notice if one is out. She sure does. Now if there was one bulb and it burned out, then I would notice and the bulb would be changed straight away.

You are correct. I don't forget things at work. If a client is expecting something, I deliver. But I do have burned out light bulbs at my office. 

I don't get upset with my wife when she forgets the password for our online banking when it has been the same for 6 months. I don't make her feel inept or stupid for not remembering it. I understand that isn't her thing.

I wish she had a similar understanding.



> In your case, there is SOMETHING going on that does not allow the two of you to make meaningful deposits in each others love banks. Thus the scales are tipping in the wrong way. You don't remedy the small things you can. She does not get over herself. Why would you? The scales are in the position where you feel more like making a case for what a bad person the other one is.


When it feels like the love and caring is only going one direction, it is difficult to keep it flowing.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> It isn't hard. It is dead easy. If the light bulb was important to me, there is no way I would ask my wife to change it. I would just do it.
> 
> The room has 6 bulbs in it. I don't notice if one is out. She sure does. Now if there was one bulb and it burned out, then I would notice and the bulb would be changed straight away.
> 
> You are correct. I don't forget things at work. If a client is expecting something, I deliver. But I do have burned out light bulbs at my office.
> 
> I don't get upset with my wife when she forgets the password for our online banking when it has been the same for 6 months. I don't make her feel inept or stupid for not remembering it. I understand that isn't her thing.
> 
> I wish she had a similar understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> When it feels like the love and caring is only going one direction, it is difficult to keep it flowing.


The lights being fixed have nothing to do with your wife giving you love. 

You either take accountability for something or you don't. 

Don't make you failing to deliver on your commitments someone else's fault. 

Go read Seneca.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> It isn't hard. It is dead easy. If the light bulb was important to me, there is no way I would ask my wife to change it. I would just do it.


Have you told her that? I remember early in our marriage DH told me, look you have this vision of marriage and honey do lists and stuff. That is not happening. We are partners. I will help you when I can. It is somewhat dishonest for you to say on the one hand

1. Yes, dear, I will do it and
2. It is not really important to me, so I will blow it off and call it not remembering.



> The room has 6 bulbs in it. I don't notice if one is out. She sure does. Now if there was one bulb and it burned out, then I would notice and the bulb would be changed straight away.
> 
> You are correct. I don't forget things at work. If a client is expecting something, I deliver. But I do have burned out light bulbs at my office.
> 
> I don't get upset with my wife when she forgets the password for our online banking when it has been the same for 6 months. I don't make her feel inept or stupid for not remembering it. I understand that isn't her thing.
> 
> I wish she had a similar understanding.


You are you. She is her. She is not you. You wish she would lighten up. She wishes you would take her feelings seriously. See how that works?




> When it feels like the love and caring is only going one direction, it is difficult to keep it flowing.


What does love and caring look like TO HER? Sounds like you are equating love and caring as honey do lists half assedly accommodated. Or she may just be a *****. I don't know.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't believe you. There are many things that I say I will do, but sometimes I just plain forget. Mostly I don't notice.
> 
> My wife will mention that a light bulb needs to be replaced. I totally intend to do it. But I forget and don't notice the burned out bulb. A couple of days later I am in trouble.
> 
> It isn't that a person maliciously doesn't do something on purpose. They simply forget. That particular thing just isn't very important to them (no matter how badly they want it to be to please their spouse).
> 
> The difference is that some people hold this over their spouse and some people realize it is human nature and there is no reason to get upset over it.


Here is a not-uncommon situation that used to happen around my house.

ME: bumps head on an upper kitchen cupboard door that was left open. "Ouch! Honey, can you please remember to close the door after you're done in there?" Closes door.

Ex: "sure, whatever."

later

ME - bang "ouch, dammit!" closes door. "Please honey, I need you to close these doors so I don't hurt myself."

Ex: "sorry, I forgot."

later

ME - bang "ouch dammit not again!" closes door. "Honey, it's still happening. I know we're not the same height and you don't bang your own head on these doors, but I really need you to close them when you are done."

Ex: "I know!"

later

ME - bang. *#&%&@$*

I know you're all going to tell me I should just have gotten in the habit of looking more closely at the cupboard doors before I went in the kitchen instead of getting upset, right? That I should have been more forgiving of my ex's absentmindedness and made adjustments? My feeling was that my ex could have taken the two seconds to close the door. You don't even have to take your hand off the knob to close a door you just opened! How can you possibly forget to close something you JUST opened? The only answer to me was that my ex didn't actually care that I was getting goose-eggs on my head on a regular basis.

Some people look around a messy house and think "hey, it's okay, people live here." Other people look around at a messy house and see a hundred things that need doing. Those two types of people should not live in the same house without expecting friction. One person cannot just assume that the other will magically change after beginning cohabitation. And let me tell you, the one who thinks there are things to do will build resentment against the other person for not helping fairly to do them, and the one who doesn't will build resentment against the other for nagging. And it often (but not always) divides along gender lines because women are still judged for a messy house in a way that men are not. And a messy man will not easily understand that his wife may be being judged for his own messiness.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> I went on the warpath with this in my life some years ago.
> 
> It did two things: it made me really clear and intentional about what I commit to, and gave people around me the ability to trust me.
> 
> I forget things sometimes, too. But I've also become a GTD fanatic, so that this of things is usually pretty short.
> 
> But I've had my fair share of remembering to do something in the middle of the night, and my commitment to do it, and getting up to get it done because I said it would be done.
> 
> 
> Did you say you will do it and then not do it?
> 
> That's the root of the problem.
> 
> Take a picture of the light with your phone and stick it into a reminder that goes off when you're at a point to do it. Or just get up and do it right then and there.
> 
> 
> Personal commitments matter. The size of them doesn't matter. And it doesn't mean you can't renegotiate them.
> 
> "Wife, I'll get to the light in a couple days -- I'm kind of busy with the basement flooding after all."
> 
> 
> 
> I have found that if I hold myself to a very high standard, people suddenly stop judging me for this kind of stuff at all.
> 
> But you have to live up to your commitments.


I try to just do it right away so I don't forget. 

To me the issue is understanding and respect.

I run a business and my wife is a SAHS (youngest is 19). I would never tell her to have supper ready at 5:30pm. And if I did, I would never give her grief if it wasn't ready. 

I often wonder what things would be like if she was the one running the business and I was doing what she does.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> If this were not such an important issue, some of this back and forth might be amusing. But marriages are lost because women do not feel heard, do not feel loved.


And vice versa


----------



## Wolf1974

3Xnocharm said:


> I cant believe people bother arguing with her any more, her mind is closed as a steel trap. Just because the whole weird dynamic of her being submissive to her husband works for HER, she thinks that this is the way the world actually works, and it isn't. She lives in a bubble and it is beyond frustrating to the rest of us.


I know, I get it and her agenda. However we have to keep refuting the one side gender nonsense because while I make light of it the reality is that the divorce rate is way to high, and more men than ever are checking out of marriage completely. I guess some studies are now saying women are too. What I have seen is that the divorce rate is so high because or the Me me me mentality when so much of marriage actually takes a lot of you you you kind of compromise.

Second men and women communicate different and somewhere that just got lost. That has got to be addressed. Thread after thread of men don't listen and then thread after thread of wives walk away and never talk to us... Umm how does everyone not see the disconnect on that. Keep blaming one gender as much as you like and see how that solves the problem. It won't


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> This hands down is one of the more common sense thing you have said. Now if only you could look past its all on men to fix it we might actually get somewhere. But so long as we don't then like I said we have room to expand on the divorce rate.


I guess it is only on them to fix it if they are not ready to accept the consequences of not fixing it.

Again, I think that is what the writer is trying to help men see.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Here is a not-uncommon situation that used to happen around my house.
> 
> ME: bumps head on an upper kitchen cupboard door that was left open. "Ouch! Honey, can you please remember to close the door after you're done in there?" Closes door.
> 
> Ex: "sure, whatever."
> 
> later
> 
> ME - bang "ouch, dammit!" closes door. "Please honey, I need you to close these doors so I don't hurt myself."
> 
> Ex: "sorry, I forgot."
> 
> later
> 
> ME - bang "ouch dammit not again!" closes door. "Honey, it's still happening. I know we're not the same height and you don't bang your own head on these doors, but I really need you to close them when you are done."
> 
> Ex: "I know!"
> 
> later
> 
> ME - bang. *#&%&@$*
> 
> I know you're all going to tell me I should just have gotten in the habit of looking more closely at the cupboard doors before I went in the kitchen instead of getting upset, right? That I should have been more forgiving of my ex's absentmindedness and made adjustments? My feeling was that my ex could have taken the two seconds to close the door.


It is not a matter of "should". It is a matter of whether or not things are awesome on balance to make you decide, **** it, this one is a non issue. Sure, there are people out there who are sort of picky and like to make issues of things. Those people cannot be helped. I am guessing the doors were not the defining issue of the problems.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> I guess it is only on them to fix it if they are not ready to accept the consequences of not fixing it.
> 
> Again, I think that is what the writer is trying to help men see.


Can't fix what you don't recognize is broken. In this or anything in life


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> That hearing issue again?
> 
> 
> 
> His comment was patronizing. I agree with that and the sicking up part.


There has been jabs toward both sexes, in humor. 

But take yourself back to that victim chair, JLD. It seems to be rather comfortable for you in this thread.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I try to just do it right away so I don't forget.
> 
> To me the issue is understanding and respect.
> 
> I run a business and my wife is a SAHS (youngest is 19). I would never tell her to have supper ready at 5:30pm. And if I did, I would never give her grief if it wasn't ready.
> 
> I often wonder what things would be like if she was the one running the business and I was doing what she does.


For the next month I recommend you deliver ruthlessly on your commitments to yourself at all costs. The large and the small. The meaningful and meaningless. The external and internal. 

Every single one. 

And then tell me your life is not better and you have more respect - for yourself and from others. 

Because all I see is you letting yourself off the hook from what you're capable of, and you know it, and it shows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

farsidejunky said:


> There has been jabs toward both sexes, in humor.
> 
> But take yourself back to that victim chair, JLD. It seems to be rather comfortable for you in this thread.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I was joking around.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> For the next month I recommend you deliver ruthlessly on your commitments to yourself at all costs. The large and the small. The meaningful and meaningless. The external and internal.
> 
> Every single one.
> 
> And then tell me your life is not better and you have more respect - for yourself and from others.
> 
> Because all I see is you letting yourself off the hook from what you're capable of, and you know it, and it shows.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or if the **** violates NUTs, don't do it. And SAY you aren't going to do it.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Or if the **** violates NUTs, don't do it. And SAY you aren't going to do it.


When I started this journey one of the greatest realizations was that I was committing to things without realizing it. 

That ranges from "ok babe I'll do this thing that I have no intention of doing" to "if you do that thing that pisses me off I'm going to do this other thing that pisses you off" and then not doing it. 

You know, considering before saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Here is a not-uncommon situation that used to happen around my house.
> 
> ME: bumps head on an upper kitchen cupboard door that was left open. "Ouch! Honey, can you please remember to close the door after you're done in there?" Closes door.
> 
> Ex: "sure, whatever."
> 
> later
> 
> ME - bang "ouch, dammit!" closes door. "Please honey, I need you to close these doors so I don't hurt myself."
> 
> Ex: "sorry, I forgot."
> 
> later
> 
> ME - bang "ouch dammit not again!" closes door. "Honey, it's still happening. I know we're not the same height and you don't bang your own head on these doors, but I really need you to close them when you are done."
> 
> Ex: "I know!"
> 
> later
> 
> ME - bang. *#&%&@$*
> 
> I know you're all going to tell me I should just have gotten in the habit of looking more closely at the cupboard doors before I went in the kitchen instead of getting upset, right? That I should have been more forgiving of my ex's absentmindedness and made adjustments? My feeling was that my ex could have taken the two seconds to close the door. You don't even have to take your hand off the knob to close a door you just opened! How can you possibly forget to close something you JUST opened? The only answer to me was that my ex didn't actually care that I was getting goose-eggs on my head on a regular basis.
> 
> Some people look around a messy house and think "hey, it's okay, people live here." Other people look around at a messy house and see a hundred things that need doing. Those two types of people should not live in the same house without expecting friction. One person cannot just assume that the other will magically change after beginning cohabitation. And let me tell you, the one who thinks there are things to do will build resentment against the other person for not helping fairly to do them, and the one who doesn't will build resentment against the other for nagging. And it often (but not always) divides along gender lines because women are still judged for a messy house in a way that men are not. And a messy man will not easily understand that his wife may be being judged for his own messiness.


This has kind of gone full circle.

To me, a glass by the sink and a light bulb being out are so minor that they should not be an issue to anyone.

A messy house and leaving a cupboard door open that can cause injury are on a different level. They are things worthy of discussion and action. 

Don't sweat the small stuff. Fight your battles. All that stuff.

I used the light bulb example as a way of trying to get my point across that people should understand that nobody is perfect. That somethings are not worth causing an issue over. What people got out of it is that I make promises and don't keep them. To be very honest. When told about a light bulb or when I notice a light bulb I change it 98% of the time. It was just an example. 

Just like some people saw the guy leaving a sink in the glass and imagined that to mean the guy was a total slob. People now image me forgetting a light bulb as someone who dismisses everything that is important to my wife and never lifting a hand.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> For the next month I recommend you deliver ruthlessly on your commitments to yourself at all costs. The large and the small. The meaningful and meaningless. The external and internal.
> 
> Every single one.
> 
> And then tell me your life is not better and you have more respect - for yourself and from others.
> 
> Because all I see is you letting yourself off the hook from what you're capable of, and you know it, and it shows.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So now are you saying the guy should have never left the glass in the sink?


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> This has kind of gone full circle.
> 
> To me, a glass by the sink and a light bulb being out are so minor that they *should *not be an issue to anyone.


You are stuck on should. Your should is not the same as her should, especially if there is a consistent pattern of blowing off her desires.
A messy house and leaving a cupboard door open that can cause injury are on a different level. They are things worthy of discussion and action. 


> Don't sweat the small stuff. Fight your battles. All that stuff.


You don't get to pick what is small for her. That was sort of the author's entire point.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> So now are saying the guy should have never left the glass in the sink?


You really don't get that it is not about the glass. That much is clear.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> So now are saying the guy should have never left the glass in the sink?


The difference was I never would have said I wouldn't leave them by the sink. 

If I agreed to it, and then didn't do it, the fault would have been mine. Two fold, one for agreeing to something stupid, and two for not doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> The difference was I never would have said I wouldn't leave them by the sink.
> 
> If I agreed to it, and then didn't, the fault would have been mine. Two fold, *one for agreeing to something stupid*, and two for not doing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Change that to "one for agreeing to do something I had no intention of doing". Categorizing it as stupid, when it clearly is not to her, adds no value to the discourse.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Change that to "one for agreeing to do something I had no intention of doing". Categorizing it as stupid, when it clearly is not to her, adds no value to the discourse.


It is objectively a stupid allocation of resources to fixate, demand, and assign emotional value to a glass that I'm not done with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> It is objectively a stupid allocation of resources to fixate, demand, and assign emotional value to a glass that I'm not done with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who cares? You don't get to choose what someone else assigns emotional value to. Emotions are not objective. You can right fight until your purple about the objective rightness of this position. Does it win you a Kewpie doll?


----------



## farsidejunky

NobodySpecial said:


> I was joking around.


I know.

I found it quite humorous.

So was Marduk, which produced hurt feelings and victimization rather than humor in JLD, to whom I was referring.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## NobodySpecial

farsidejunky said:


> I know.
> 
> I found it quite humorous.
> 
> So was Marduk, which produced hurt feelings and victimization rather than humor in JLD, to whom I was referring.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


There are a couple of people who get hurt or offended no matter what is said.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Who cares? You don't get to choose what someone else assigns emotional value to. Emotions are not objective. You can right fight until your purple about the objective rightness of this position. Does it win you a Kewpie doll?


And that would be a valid reason for my wife to resent me. 

Because that would be my position.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> You are stuck on should. Your should is not the same as her should, especially if there is a consistent pattern of blowing off her desires.
> A messy house and leaving a cupboard door open that can cause injury are on a different level. They are things worthy of discussion and action.
> 
> You don't get to pick what is small for her. That was sort of the author's entire point.


As I said, we have gone full circle. That is entirely the point. Some people agree with the author and some don't.

Some people are saying that no matter what your partner demands, you should do it because it is important to them. Whether it is a crumb on the floor or a glass in the sink or lightbulb that is out.

Others are saying that people need to be responsible for themselves. That there is a limit to what you should expect from your partner. 

For bigger things, sure. It is important for the house to be clean, so the other spouse should respect that. Don't leave clothes everywhere. Don't spill things and not clean them up. Empty the dishwasher when it is full. etc. etc. etc. 

Complaining about one glass in the sink is unreasonable to me. Others feel that if that is important to the spouse, then you should do it.

I am in between on it. I know these things are important to my wife. So for the most part I do them. I put glasses away. But when a glass is left out, I don't expect the marriage to end because of it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> And that would be a valid reason for my wife to resent me.
> 
> Because that would be my position.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you would rather be "right" than caring? How is that integrity metric working for you?


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> As I said, we have gone full circle. That is entirely the point. Some people agree with the author and some don't.


I think some people don't get the point of what the author is saying.




> Some people are saying that no matter what your partner demands, you should do it because it is important to them.


It is not about demands.



> Whether it is a crumb on the floor or a glass in the sink or lightbulb that is out.
> 
> Others are saying that people need to be responsible for themselves. That there is a limit to what you should expect from your partner.
> 
> For bigger things, sure. It is important for the house to be clean, so the other spouse should respect that. Don't leave clothes everywhere. Don't spill things and not clean them up. Empty the dishwasher when it is full. etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Complaining about one glass in the sink is unreasonable to me. Others feel that if that is important to the spouse, then you should do it.
> 
> I am in between on it. I know these things are important to my wife. So for the most part I do them. I put glasses away. But when a glass is left out, I don't expect the marriage to end because of it.


I think you miss the entire point. Having tried to make it clear, and having had you ignore that in favor of the right fight you feel you must have, I leave you to your unhappy marriage.


----------



## Fozzy

NobodySpecial said:


> Who cares? You don't get to choose what someone else assigns emotional value to. Emotions are not objective. You can right fight until your purple about the objective rightness of this position. Does it win you a Kewpie doll?



/mic drop


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> The difference was I never would have said I wouldn't leave them by the sink.
> 
> If I agreed to it, and then didn't do it, the fault would have been mine. Two fold, one for agreeing to something stupid, and two for not doing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife is quite particular about the house and glasses by the sink.

When my wife lets me know that it is important to her that glasses not be left by the sink, I tell her I will try to accommodate that request. And out of respect, I put things away 90% of the time.

In return, I expect her to not cause a world war because 10% of the time, I leave a glass out. 

So what would you tell your wife if she let you know it was important to her that you not leave glasses by the sink?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Fozzy said:


> /mic drop


What does that mean??


----------



## farsidejunky

NobodySpecial said:


> So you would rather be "right" than caring? How is that integrity metric working for you?


I completely understand the point you're making and agree.

However, there are times where these disputes are over things that are my N.U.T.'s (non-negotiable unalterable terms). When that happens I will most certainly dig my heels in.

It is not about being right in that instance, but rather about what I will and will not accept from my partner.

This entire discussion becomes much more clear and much more simple when you have a grip on what truly matters. That list should be expectedly small. 

In anything dealing with those lists, it is not a negotiation. In nearly everything else, there is plenty of room for compromise.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> So you would rather be "right" than caring? How is that integrity metric working for you?


Am I wrong?

In a context where I move heaven and earth to show her that I love her?

It's better to be honest, I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> If this were not such an important issue, some of this back and forth might be amusing. But marriages are lost because women do not feel heard, do not feel loved. They file much more often than men, and this is surely a big part of the reason.


I disagree with this assumption.

Women have filed on average 2/3 of the time for married couples.

Long term relationships it's practically a 50/50 split.

Why the difference?

Lots of men do not want to lose their relationships with their kids. The courts used to be really biased and every other weekend was the norm for Dads. Add the financial burden with it. Of course men don't file, even the ones in active affairs and in love with other women would not file. 

However, thanks to 50/50 custody and the courts becoming more progressive to men the 2/3 has dropped to around 60% of women filing first.


----------



## NobodySpecial

farsidejunky said:


> I completely understand the point you're making and agree.
> 
> However, there are times where these disputes are over things that are my N.U.T.'s (non-negotiable unalterable terms). When that happens I will most certainly dig my heels in.
> 
> It is not about being right in that instance, but rather about what I will and will not accept from my partner.
> 
> This entire discussion becomes much more clear and much more simple when you have a grip on what truly matters. That list should be expectedly small.
> 
> In anything dealing with those lists, it is not a negotiation. In nearly everything else, there is plenty of room for compromise.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


You can hold onto your NUTs without categorizing your partner's feelings as stupid. The former is smart. The latter is mean.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Am I wrong?


Are you wrong in what? That you are not going to put your glass in the sink? If you are not going to do it, then saying you are not going to do it is right. Categorizing her feelings on dishes as stupid is dead, dead wrong. And the entire point of the whole listening and understanding thing. Feelings are not objective. And the one thing that is the worst to right fight about is feelings. The are to be understood when possible, accepted when not.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> My wife is quite particular about the house and glasses by the sink.
> 
> When my wife lets me know that it is important to her that glasses not be left by the sink, I tell her I will try to accommodate that request. And out of respect, I put things away 90% of the time.
> 
> In return, I expect her to not cause a world war because 10% of the time, I leave a glass out.
> 
> So what would you tell your wife if she let you know it was important to her that you not leave glasses by the sink?


That she can have fun with that.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Are you wrong in what? That you are not going to put your glass in the sink? If you are not going to do it, then saying you are not going to do it is right. Categorizing her feelings on dishes as stupid is dead, dead wrong. And the entire point of the whole listening and understanding thing. Feelings are not objective. And the one thing that is the worst to right fight about is feelings. The are to be understood when possible, accepted when not.


I never once said her feelings would be stupid. 

I said agreeing to it would be stupid and arguing about it is a stupid allocation of resources. 

I would question her on her fixation with glasses. 

We each have stupid things we value - like me and Doctor who. But I agree it's stupid and don't try to justify it as anything valid.


----------



## Fozzy

Fozzy said:


> /mic drop





NobodySpecial said:


> What does that mean??




the microphone drop is common in the world of rap battles and professional wrestling.

when you say something that's completely undeniably so true that your opponent hangs their head in shame with no legitimate comeback, you extend your arm, turn the mic sideways, drop it to the floor and walk away victorious.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> My wife is quite particular about the house and glasses by the sink.
> 
> When my wife lets me know that it is important to her that glasses not be left by the sink, I tell her I will try to accommodate that request. And out of respect, I put things away 90% of the time.
> 
> In return, I expect her to not cause a world war because 10% of the time, I leave a glass out.
> 
> So what would you tell your wife if she let you know it was important to her that you not leave glasses by the sink?


That's the entirety of the problem, and I wish you could see that.


----------



## SadSamIAm

farsidejunky said:


> I completely understand the point you're making and agree.
> 
> However, there are times where these disputes are over things that are my N.U.T.'s (non-negotiable unalterable terms). When that happens I will most certainly dig my heels in.
> 
> It is not about being right in that instance, but rather about what I will and will not accept from my partner.
> 
> This entire discussion becomes much more clear and much more simple when you have a grip on what truly matters. That list should be expectedly small.
> 
> In anything dealing with those lists, it is not a negotiation. In nearly everything else, there is plenty of room for compromise.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I agree with you. 

My opinion is that these things that we are talking about are not NUTS type issues. They are compromise type issues. 

The problem is when your spouse sees them as a NUTS type issue to them and/or isn't willing to compromise.


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> I think some people don't get the point of what the author is saying.


I know! It is so frustrating. I have tried over and over and they just don't understand.


----------



## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> However, there are times where these disputes are over things that are my N.U.T.'s (non-negotiable unalterable terms). When that happens I will most certainly dig my heels in.
> 
> It is not about being right in that instance, but rather about what I will and will not accept from my partner.
> 
> This entire discussion becomes much more clear and much more simple when you have a grip on what truly matters. That list should be expectedly small.


The way I see it, the problem is that the conversation goes something like the following.

A: You don't treat me with respect. I feel like you take me for granted.
B: Huh? What do you mean?
A: I feel like you don't respect me.
B: Why do you feel that way?
A: Well, for example when I talk to you, you don't listen to what I say
B: I'm listening right now
A: Well, sure, but most of the time what I say to you goes in one ear and out the other. You don't seem to care what I think
B: Not sure what you mean, can you give an example.
A: I just gave you an example. 
B: You are being too vague. It makes no sense Give me a concrete example of how I "don't respect you".
A: Well, I've been telling you for ages that it's more work for me if I always have to clean up after you, and that I would appreciate it if you could just help out a bit and put your own dishes in the dishwasher.
B: That's what this is about? Why are you making a federal case out of a stupid glass. Stop being so neurotic about something that doesn't matter at all.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> I never once said her feelings would be stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> It is *objectively a stupid *allocation of resources to fixate, demand, *and assign emotional value* to a glass that I'm not done with.
Click to expand...

Your words.



I said agreeing to it would be stupid and arguing about it is a stupid allocation of resources. 



> I would question her on her fixation with glasses.


You would categorize what to her might be simple efficiency, when you are done with something put it away, with fixation.



> We each have stupid things we value - like me and Doctor who. But I agree it's stupid and don't try to justify it as anything valid.


There is nothing stupid about liking Dr Who. Or wanting a clean kitchen. There is fundamentally no need to categorize someone else' stuff as stupid.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

How did this turn into a battle between the guys?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Fozzy said:


> the microphone drop is common in the world of rap battles and professional wrestling.
> 
> when you say something that's completely undeniably so true that your opponent hangs their head in shame with no legitimate comeback, you extend your arm, turn the mic sideways, drop it to the floor and walk away victorious.


Neat. I learned something today! Thanks.


----------



## OpenWindows

NobodySpecial said:


> Who cares? You don't get to choose what someone else assigns emotional value to. Emotions are not objective. You can right fight until your purple about the objective rightness of this position. Does it win you a Kewpie doll?





marduk said:


> And that would be a valid reason for my wife to resent me.
> 
> Because that would be my position.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And that is why the author's wife resented him. Not over that specific glass, but over the fact that he treated his feelings as more correct then hers, and it made her feel disrespected.


----------



## lifeistooshort

At the end of the day nobody gets to decide what someone else should think is stupid. You can only evaluate your partner's requirements for staying married to you and decide if what you get in return is worth it.

What you don't get to do is dismiss what bothers your partner and then assume victimhood when they dump you. Period. 

Some people might tell you that your spouse's EA really isn't a big deal because no touching was involved, but fortunately they don't get to decide. Extreme example for sure but it illustrates how these things are subjective. 

Maybe a guys request for more involved sex should be written off as nagging. After all, he gets to use his starfish sex wife as a masturbation tool so what's the problem? Just choose not to let it bother you, since it has been suggested that we should just choose not to let things bother us.

Yet we know that if starfish sex bothers you then it bothers you and should be dealt with precisely because it bothers you. 

So at the end of the day you can argue all you want and if your marriage is working for you then great, but it won't help you remain married if your marriage is in trouble, assuming of course that's what you want. 

I often wonder why things that bother men, like sex, aren't labeled nagging. The very term is a nasty, disrespectful way of dismissing your partner's needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> And that is why the author's wife resented him. Not over that specific glass, but over the fact that he treated his feelings as more correct then hers, and it made her feel disrespected.


And had he not cared about losing his marriage, how he treated her would have been fine with him, I guess. He would have decided he was right, and her feelings were wrong, or stupid, or irrationally hurt, or emotionally immature, or something.


----------



## NobodySpecial

OpenWindows said:


> And that is why the author's wife resented him. Not over that specific glass, but over the fact that he treated his feelings as more correct then hers, and it made her feel disrespected.


Treated his opinion over the RIGHTNESS of the opinion of the glass as more important than hers.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> Marry him? Have children with him? Trust him for lifelong financial support? Move around the world with him?
> 
> He makes reasonable arguments, for sure, but they are undergirded by his love for me and our kids. When I feel loved, actively loved, I am even more open to his influence than usual.
> 
> Yes, I need consistent inspiration. I need consistently reasonable arguments and actions to maintain my trust in him and I need to feel loved to believe any of it matters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was more after your definition of how he inspires you not what he has inspired you to do. What does 'undergirded' mean? who decides if his arguments are reasonable?


----------



## bc3543

NobodySpecial said:


> Treated his opinion over the RIGHTNESS of the opinion of the glass as more important than hers.


Then who decides who should get to be right? If he has an opinion on the glass and she has an opposing one, then don't both disrespect the other's opinion?


----------



## OpenWindows

What it often comes down to in these situations, is this...

One partner in these marriages has a tendency to believe that what they feel is "right", because it feels right to them and makes so much sense to them.

So when they feel something, it's right, and their spouse should respect that, because it's just so obvious to them.
When their spouse feels something they don't understand, well obviously that's wrong, because it makes no sense to them.

When you mix that with poor communication, you get a person who expects their own feelings to be respected at all times and at any cost to their partner, and the partner who resents the crap out of that. But they feel their resentful partner is wrong for feeling that way, so it's not dealt with.

It plays out with walkaway wives, and sexless husbands as well.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Your words.
> 
> 
> 
> I said agreeing to it would be stupid and arguing about it is a stupid allocation of resources.
> 
> 
> You would categorize what to her might be simple efficiency, when you are done with something put it away, with fixation.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing stupid about liking Dr Who. Or wanting a clean kitchen. There is fundamentally no need to categorize someone else' stuff as stupid.


I would think it was stupid to assign feelings to a glass, not that having feelings are stupid. 

And have you seen 70s Doctor who?

It's pretty stupid. Awesomely so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

bc3543 said:


> Then who decides who should get to be right? If he has an opinion on the glass and she has an opposing one, then don't both disrespect the other's opinion?


Gah! The position of the glass is not the issue. There is a lot already in the thread.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Quote:
Originally Posted by SadSamIAm View Post
My wife is quite particular about the house and glasses by the sink.

When my wife lets me know that it is important to her that glasses not be left by the sink, I tell her I will try to accommodate that request. And out of respect, I put things away 90% of the time.

In return, I expect her to not cause a world war because 10% of the time, I leave a glass out.

So what would you tell your wife if she let you know it was important to her that you not leave glasses by the sink?



marduk said:


> That's the entirety of the problem, and I wish you could see that.


I think you didn't answer my question because it isn't as easy as you make it sound. 

From what you said earlier, your response to her would be "NO". That you aren't going to agree to put away your glasses.

Because if you agreed to her request, and you forget sometimes, then you are in the wrong. So you can't agree to do this for her.

But if you say NO to something that is important to her, then you are just being a jerk. 

What is wrong with compromise? I understand that is important to you and I will do my best to accommodate you.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Treated his opinion over the RIGHTNESS of the opinion of the glass as more important than hers.


I never claimed to be easy to be married to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bc3543

NobodySpecial said:


> Gah! The position of the glass is not the issue. There is a lot already in the thread.


I know that. But you said he didn't respect her right to have an opinion. 

But she didn't respect his right to an opinion either? So doesn't it work both ways?


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by SadSamIAm View Post
> My wife is quite particular about the house and glasses by the sink.
> 
> When my wife lets me know that it is important to her that glasses not be left by the sink, I tell her I will try to accommodate that request. And out of respect, I put things away 90% of the time.
> 
> In return, I expect her to not cause a world war because 10% of the time, I leave a glass out.
> 
> So what would you tell your wife if she let you know it was important to her that you not leave glasses by the sink?
> 
> 
> 
> I think you didn't answer my question because it isn't as easy as you make it sound.
> 
> From what you said earlier, your response to her would be "NO". That you aren't going to agree to put away your glasses.
> 
> Because if you agreed to her request, and you forget sometimes, then you are in the wrong. So you can't agree to do this for her.
> 
> But if you say NO to something that is important to her, then you are just being a jerk.
> 
> What is wrong with compromise? I understand that is important to you and I will do my best to accommodate you.


Is getting something done at work 90% of the time enough?

Showing up on time 90% of the time?

Paying your bills 90% of the time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

bc3543 said:


> I know that. But you said he didn't respect her right to have an opinion.


I really didn't.


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> I was more after your definition of how he inspires you not what he has inspired you to do. What does 'undergirded' mean? who decides if his arguments are reasonable?


If I am persuaded by them, then I would call them reasonable. We both want what is best for the family, after all. Everything we do needs to be undergirded, or motivated, by love.

He inspired me yesterday. He has been at a meeting in Eastern Europe all week. The level above his, all the guys went to Dubai for meetings a few years ago. They were talking about the extravagance, really got into it.

Dug remarked that he had no interest in that, does not share their enthusiasm. I already know that he is not materialistic, but hearing that comment reminded me of one of the reasons I respect his character, and find him inspiring.


----------



## ButtPunch

bc3543 said:


> I know that. But you said he didn't respect her right to have an opinion.
> 
> But she didn't respect his right to an opinion either? So doesn't it work both ways?


His opinion don't matter. Men aren't allowed feelings.


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> What does 'undergirded' mean?


_un·der·gird
ˌəndərˈɡərd/
verb
past tense: undergirded; past participle: undergirded
secure or fasten from the underside, especially by a rope or chain passed underneath.
formal
provide support or a firm basis for._


----------



## lifeistooshort

bc3543 said:


> I know that. But you said he didn't respect her right to have an opinion.
> 
> But she didn't respect his right to an opinion either? So doesn't it work both ways?


Yes, except that she wanted out and he didn't, so he can bring up his opinion not being respected until the cows come home and it won't matter.

It's no comfort to the one who didn't want the marriage to end. 

If I don't participate in a good sex life and my hb leaves over it i can b!tch all day long that his wants were stupid and he didn't respect me by demanding a good sex life, but he left and I wanted the marriage.

So how does it matter that I'm entitled to claim he didn't respect me? I didn't want out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

Can't two people just be incompatible. 

Why does the blame game keep going on and on?

We haven't heard her side of the story either.

She may tell us she left him cause he was a wimp with smelly feet.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> His opinion don't matter. Men aren't allowed feelings.


It is not that his feelings do not matter. But he might get better mileage out of trying to understand and respect her feelings first.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> His opinion don't matter. Men aren't allowed feelings.


Yet somehow they're told to leave sexless marriages all the time. 

So how don't their feelings matter?

Feel what you want but if your wife doesn't want to be married to you nothing can force her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

ButtPunch said:


> Can't two people just be incompatible.
> 
> Why does the blame game keep going on and on?
> 
> We haven't heard her side of the story either.
> 
> She may tell us she left him cause he was a wimp with smelly feet.


Correct. But he's he's self reflecting, and that can only be good for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

ButtPunch said:


> His opinion don't matter. Men aren't allowed feelings.


His feelings very much do matter. As such, they should be voiced. You know honey, I just don't see that I am every going to find putting the glass in the sink. The silent blow off is the killer.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> It is not that his feelings do not matter. But he might get better mileage out of trying to understand and respect her feelings first.


Completely sexist IMO.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Completely sexist IMO.


Maybe. But if you are in what I would guess is a typical marriage, a helpful strategy.


----------



## ButtPunch

lifeistooshort said:


> Yet somehow they're told to leave sexless marriages all the time.
> 
> So how don't their feelings matter?
> 
> Feel what you want but if your wife doesn't want to be married to you nothing can force her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again not compatible. I think the guy's wife had every right to leave. 
If a clean kitchen is a deal breaker for her, then that's that.

HD/LD couple and HD wants to leave. I don't blame them either.

Heck I wouldn't blame the LD for leaving either.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Maybe. But if you are in what I would guess is a typical marriage, a helpful strategy.


What is so great about women that there feelings should come first? 

Even children are scolded when they display this type behavior.

It's baby like.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> What is so great about women that there feelings should come first?


You would know better than I. You have a wife you would like to keep, I would presume.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> You would know better than I. You have a wife you would like to keep, I would presume.


Yes and she is a functioning adult who does not have to be babied. 

She has feelings. I have feelings. Our kids have feelings. 

Everyone's feelings matter.


----------



## zackie

ButtPunch said:


> What is so great about women that there feelings should come first?
> 
> Even children are scolded when they display this type behavior.
> 
> It's baby like.


Because normally the wife's needs and feelings come last because she's too busy tending to the the feelings of her husband and family.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> You would know better than I. You have a wife you would like to keep, I would presume.


Can't Answer for him but I would never want a wife or GF that thought thier thoughts, feelings or desires were more important than mine. They are equally important or I'm not interested.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I wonder if this thread would be this active/contentious if we were discussing how to treat the Husband well instead of the Wife to ensure he stays.


----------



## Wolf1974

zackie said:


> Because normally the wife's needs and feelings come last because she's too busy tending to the the feelings of her husband and family.


I would not describe that as normal by any stretch. Come last??? 

Sorry was this Sarcasm?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

zackie said:


> Because normally the wife's needs and feelings come last because she's too busy tending to the the feelings of her husband and family.


This is totally projecting


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

zackie said:


> Because normally the wife's needs and feelings come last because she's too busy tending to the the feelings of her husband and family.


How does making her feelings come first remedy this


----------



## Blossom Leigh

zackie said:


> Because normally the wife's needs and feelings come last because she's too busy tending to the the feelings of her husband and family.


Lol!!! And the guys aren't ... Omg. That is just off the rails.


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> How does making her feelings come first remedy this


Feeling heard and loved and respected is likely to make a wife want her husband to feel the same way.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Blossom Leigh said:


> Lol!!! And the guys aren't ... Omg. That is just off the rails.


Why, are you not tending to your hb's needs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> Feeling heard and loved and respected is likely to make a wife want her husband to feel the same way.


Possibly but why must her feelings come first?


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Possibly but why must her feelings come first?


If you want to keep the relationship, you listen first.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

lifeistooshort said:


> Why, are you not tending to your hb's needs?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol!!!!!!!!

Chicka. I bust my ass taking care of my H and child, multiple houses, horses, dog, two jobs, but I assure you I am not last.

I see MANY men busting ass And being Dad, Husband, keeping the peace at home, who do NOT get credit where credit is due.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> If you want to keep the relationship, you listen first.



Therefore so must you?


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Therefore so must you?


It is certainly your choice. Just realize what you are risking by not doing it. 

That is the message of the writer, anyway.


----------



## farsidejunky

NobodySpecial said:


> You can hold onto your NUTs without categorizing your partner's feelings as stupid. The former is smart. The latter is mean.


Only if you want your own feelings to matter and sustain a relationship.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> My opinion is that these things that we are talking about are not NUTS type issues. They are compromise type issues.
> 
> The problem is when your spouse sees them as a NUTS type issue to them and/or isn't willing to compromise.


I have no right to tell my partner what her NUT's issues are.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> It is certainly your choice. Just realize what you are risking by not doing it.
> 
> That is the message of the writer, anyway.


I'm struggling to understand your point of view on this, why must the woman's feelings come first?


----------



## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> The way I see it, the problem is that the conversation goes something like the following.
> 
> A: You don't treat me with respect. I feel like you take me for granted.
> B: Huh? What do you mean?
> A: I feel like you don't respect me.
> B: Why do you feel that way?
> A: Well, for example when I talk to you, you don't listen to what I say
> B: I'm listening right now
> A: Well, sure, but most of the time what I say to you goes in one ear and out the other. You don't seem to care what I think
> B: Not sure what you mean, can you give an example.
> A: I just gave you an example.
> B: You are being too vague. It makes no sense Give me a concrete example of how I "don't respect you".
> A: Well, I've been telling you for ages that it's more work for me if I always have to clean up after you, and that I would appreciate it if you could just help out a bit and put your own dishes in the dishwasher.
> B: That's what this is about? Why are you making a federal case out of a stupid glass. Stop being so neurotic about something that doesn't matter at all.


Agreed. I used to do this to my wife before we were healthy. It was a nice guys way of deflecting and avoiding accountability. I knew damn well what I was doing, too. 

The internal dialogue was something like:

"She wants to hold me accountable? She still does x, y, and z and she wants to tell me I don't listen?"

It was pretty messed up, and incredibly intellectually dishonest.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Agreed. I used to do this to my wife before we were healthy. It was a nice guys way of deflecting and avoiding accountability. I knew damn well what I was doing, too.
> 
> The internal dialogue was something like:
> 
> "She wants to hold me accountable? She still does x, y, and z and she wants to tell me I don't listen?"
> 
> It was pretty messed up, and incredibly intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


This is where my H was.


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> I'm struggling to understand your point of view on this, why must the woman's feelings come first?


If you can get away with not putting them first, and like the results, maybe they do not have to.

Why do you open a door for your wife? Why do you help her put on her coat? Why do you give her flowers on Mother's Day?

I think most men understand that if they treat women just like they might treat another man, there is likely to be a chill in the air. Most men don't like that type of cold.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> If you can get away with not putting them first, and like the results, maybe they do not have to.
> 
> Why do you open a door for your wife? Why do you help her put on her coat? Why do you give her flowers on Mother's Day?
> 
> I think most men understand that if they treat women just like they might treat another man, there is likely to be a chill in the air. Most men don't like that type of cold.


You didn't answer his question.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> If you can get away with not putting them first, and like the results, maybe they do not have to.
> 
> Why do you open a door for your wife? Why do you help her put on her coat? Why do you give her flowers on Mother's Day?
> 
> I think most men understand that if they treat women just like they might treat another man, there is likely to be a chill in the air. Most men don't like that type of cold.


You are not actually answering the question of why the womans feelings must come first only equating not doing it to treating her as if she were another man. By the way why on earth would I buy my wife flowers for mothers day? is that an American tradition?


----------



## Duguesclin

Julius Beastcavern said:


> I'm struggling to understand your point of view on this, why must the woman's feelings come first?


She is the more vulnerable one.

What would be your argument to have the man's feelings being first?


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> You are not actually answering the question of why the womans feelings must come first only equating not doing it to treating her as if she were another man. By the way why on earth would I buy my wife flowers for mothers day? is that an American tradition?


It is just an example. I gave a few.

If the man wants to keep his wife, he is wise to put her feelings first when he can. It is like the salesman taking the client to the client's favorite restaurant for lunch. If the salesman insists on going to his own favorite place, he risks the client's not liking it. May not make business go well.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> If you can get away with not putting them first, and like the results, maybe they do not have to.
> 
> Why do you open a door for your wife? Why do you help her put on her coat? Why do you give her flowers on Mother's Day?
> 
> I think most men understand that if they treat women just like they might treat another man, there is likely to be a chill in the air. Most men don't like that type of cold.


I do all those things but if I ever suspected my feels were considered by her as second class that would be the end of that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> That's the entirety of the problem, and I wish you could see that.





marduk said:


> Is getting something done at work 90% of the time enough?
> 
> Showing up on time 90% of the time?
> 
> Paying your bills 90% of the time?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You still didn't answer my question

What would you tell your wife if she told you it was very important to her that you put your glass in the dishwasher instead of the sink?


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

Duguesclin said:


> She is the more vulnerable one.
> 
> What would be your argument to have the man's feelings being first?


Where did I say the mans feelings have to come first? I go for that old fashioned mutual thing


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> I do all those things but if I ever suspected my feels were considered by her as second class that would be the end of that
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just curious, why do you do them? Do you insist she open the door equally as many times as you open it for her? Same with your coat?

If not, why not?


----------



## Duguesclin

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Where did I say the mans feelings have to come first? I go for that old fashioned mutual thing


There is always a first. So which one do you pick?


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Where did I say the mans feelings have to come first? I go for that old fashioned mutual thing


How do you make sure it is exactly equal?


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> Just curious, why do you do them? Do you insist she open the door equally as many times as you open it for her? Same with your coat?
> 
> If not, why not?


Equal never has to mean the same again your scope in life is way too narrow. She does much for me and I appreciate them, every one. One of the things that she doesn't do is put her anything above mine which after reading this thread I appreciate all the more
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> How do you make sure it is exactly equal?


Simple, she considers my feelings and I consider hers, if there is a disagreement we work out a compromise


----------



## GettingIt_2

Wow, 46 pages!

I didn't read them all, so I'm not sure if anyone else noticed the blogger's follow up to his original "dirty glass" post. 

Of Course It Was About More Than Dirty Dishes | Must Be This Tall To Ride

But I found neither post to be all that illuminating about what his marriages issues were--only that he thinks his wife left him because he didn't pay attention to all the little things, she didn't feel heard, etc. It's not a very thorough examination of a dynamic to just say, "I'm so sad I lost her, and it was all my fault!"

A million little things slide every day that I would *rather* my husband do differently, but none of them add up to so much resentment that I'd leave him for it. I really try not to ask him to hoop jump on my pet peeves, and he does the same for me. But maybe we are more compatible than I've always thought. For me, my _respect_ for him hinges on his commitment to me and the kids, to his integrity as a person. 

All the other stuff? I would say that it's more about how _attracted_ I feel to him as a partner and as a sexual mate. But I do know that for years I conflated the two (respect vs attraction) because I think I tended to panic when my sexual attraction waned, and it was just easier for me to blame it on lack of respect. 

I often wonder if I'm not that unique--if a lot of women say, "I can't respect you if you don't x, y, z" instead of "Boy does it turn me off when you x, y, z." 

Because it's hard to sit down face to face with someone you've made a life with and say: "I want to stay married to you because you're a stand up guy and a good man and will do right by me and the kids . . . . but I really can't stand you otherwise." 

I'm not suggesting that such women are being purposefully dishonest or deceitful, but nor do I think they are doing very deep thinking about what might be at play beneath all the bickering about the little things.


----------



## AliceA

SadSamIAm said:


> I know! It is so frustrating. I have tried over and over and they just don't understand.


People get it if you look and read deep enough into what they are writing. I think the main thing some are disagreeing with are other people's philosophies on life, which are not so easy to change, regardless of how much you debate it.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

Duguesclin said:


> There is always a first. So which one do you pick?


In terms of disagreement we compromise in a way that neither of us feels put out


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Simple, she considers my feelings and I consider hers, if there is a disagreement we work out a compromise


Who usually starts the conversation?


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> It is just an example. I gave a few.
> 
> If the man wants to keep his wife, he is wise to put her feelings first when he can. It is like the salesman taking the client to the client's favorite restaurant for lunch. If the salesman insists on going to his own favorite place, he risks the client's not liking it. May not make business go well.


So you equate your marriage to a client salesman scenario :surprise:


----------



## jld

Wolf1974 said:


> Equal never has to mean the same again your scope in life is way too narrow. *She does much for me and I appreciate them, every one. * One of the things that she doesn't do is put her anything above mine which after reading this thread I appreciate all the more
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like the bolded, Wolf.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> Who usually starts the conversation?


Depends on what the issue is, the person who places more value on that issue generally starts the conversation


----------



## OpenWindows

It seems to me like the feelings of the person who is actually upset should come first.

In this case, wife was upset about the glass. HB was not... He just didn't really care if it was put up or not.

For a sexless husband, hb's feelings come first. He's upset, she doesn't care about the sex (assuming she's LD and not mistreated).

I usually try to favor the one who is more emotionally invested in the situation.


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> So you equate your marriage to a client salesman scenario :surprise:


If you want your wife to stay with you, you might consider it.


----------



## Fozzy

GettingIt said:


> Wow, 46 pages!
> 
> I didn't read them all, so I'm not sure if anyone else noticed the blogger's follow up to his original "dirty glass" post.
> 
> Of Course It Was About More Than Dirty Dishes | Must Be This Tall To Ride
> 
> But I found neither post to be all that illuminating about what his marriages issues were--only that he thinks his wife left him because he didn't pay attention to all the little things, she didn't feel heard, etc. It's not a very thorough examination of a dynamic to just say, "I'm so sad I lost her, and it was all my fault!"
> 
> A million little things slide every day that I would *rather* my husband do differently, but none of them add up to so much resentment that I'd leave him for it. I really try not to ask him to hoop jump on my pet peeves, and he does the same for me. But maybe we are more compatible than I've always thought. For me, my _respect_ for him hinges on his commitment to me and the kids, to his integrity as a person.
> 
> All the other stuff? I would say that it's more about how _attracted_ I feel to him as a partner and as a sexual mate. But I do know that for years I conflated the two (respect vs attraction) because I think I tended to panic when my sexual attraction waned, and it was just easier for me to blame it on lack of respect.
> 
> I often wonder if I'm not that unique--if a lot of women say, "I can't respect you if you don't x, y, z" instead of "Boy does it turn me off when you x, y, z."
> 
> Because it's hard to sit down face to face with someone you've made a life with and say: "I want to stay married to you because you're a stand up guy and a good man and will do right by me and the kids . . . . but I really can't stand you otherwise."
> 
> I'm not suggesting that such women are being purposefully dishonest or deceitful, but nor do I think they are doing very deep thinking about what might be at play beneath all the bickering about the little things.



GI--He's writing to an audience. This is the initial slug with the clue-bat. The kind of introspection you're talk about doesn't come about from day 1 after an a-ha moment reading a blog.

Were there deeper issues that caused the end of his marriage? Most likely yes. It doesn't take away from his basic message of "take care of your partner, even if you think it's dumb".


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

OpenWindows said:


> It seems to be like the feelings of the person who is actually upset should come first.
> 
> In this case, wife was upset about the glass. HB was not... He just didn't really care if it was put up or not.
> 
> For a sexless husband, hb's feelings come first. He's upset, she doesn't care about the sex (assuming she's LD and not mistreated).
> 
> I usually try to favor the one who is more emotionally invested in the situation.


I see alot of truth in this, if doing whatever it is doesn't affect you at all why not do it?


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> If you want your wife to stay with you, you might consider it.



You keep saying that but never really explain why. I'm not sure you know why you feel that way. If I have been married for longer than you does that mean my view is more successful than yours?


----------



## OpenWindows

Julius Beastcavern said:


> I see alot of truth in this, if doing whatever it is doesn't affect you at all why not do it?


Exactly!

And if you feel your partner is constantly upset about things that you think are trivial, you don't get to insist they ignore those things, just because you would. But you do get to decide if you want to stay with someone like that.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> It seems to me like the feelings of the person who is actually upset should come first.
> 
> In this case, wife was upset about the glass. HB was not... He just didn't really care if it was put up or not.
> 
> For a sexless husband, hb's feelings come first. He's upset, she doesn't care about the sex (assuming she's LD and not mistreated).
> 
> I usually try to favor the one who is more emotionally invested in the situation.


I don't think it is the wife's responsibility to address the sexual frustration of her husband. I think he needs to address with her why she is not attracted. After listening to her, he can think about how to inspire her. 

Jmo.


----------



## Wolf1974

jld said:


> I like the bolded, Wolf.


Well of course. Why wouldn't I. I give a lot. But my new thing is also expecting it in return :grin2:


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

OpenWindows said:


> Exactly!
> 
> And if you feel your partner is constantly upset about things that you think are trivial, you don't get to insist they ignore those things, just because you would. But you do get to decide if you want to stay with someone like that.


Yes, it's all about compatibility. I don't really have to consider putting my wifes feeling first all the time as I married someone who is compatible with me (the same goes for her)


----------



## Wolf1974

OpenWindows said:


> It seems to me like the feelings of the person who is actually upset should come first.
> 
> In this case, wife was upset about the glass. HB was not... He just didn't really care if it was put up or not.
> 
> For a sexless husband, hb's feelings come first. He's upset, she doesn't care about the sex (assuming she's LD and not mistreated).
> 
> I usually try to favor the one who is more emotionally invested in the situation.


I agree so with a minor issue my suggestion was the person who holds the most interest in things done a certain way should take accountability for it. That's just makes sense right?


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> You keep saying that but never really explain why. I'm not sure you know why you feel that way. If I have been married for longer than you does that mean my view is more successful than yours?


I work off the idea that the husband wanted the marriage, and wants to keep the marriage. To that end, he is willing to take responsibility for it. And the person who is willing to take responsibility is the person who seeks to understand first, before he seeks to be understood.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Fozzy said:


> Were there deeper issues that caused the end of his marriage? Most likely yes. It doesn't take away from his basic message of "take care of your partner, even if you think it's dumb".


Yeah, but even that is a mine field. If what I need to be taken care of makes my partner feel devalued or manipulated or whatever, then what you have is a major conflict of needs. Not necessarily a "right vs. wrong" situation.


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> I don't think it is the wife's responsibility to address the sexual frustration of her husband. I think he needs to address with her why she is not attracted. After listening to her, he can think about how to inspire her.
> 
> Jmo.


It still ties into my point. She doesn't get to say that sex is dumb and he needs to stop wanting it. He's upset and it needs to be addressed, and maybe that method is to increase her attraction, or whatever else works for them.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> I work off the idea that the husband wanted the marriage, and wants to keep the marriage. To that end, he is willing to take responsibility for it. And the person who is willing to take responsibility is the person who seeks to understand first, before he seeks to be understood.


Ah, this is where our relationships differ because both me and my wife wanted to get married and want to keep the marriage


----------



## OpenWindows

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree so with a minor issue my suggestion was the person who holds the most interest in things done a certain way should take accountability for it. That's just makes sense right?


In some cases, yes. Depends on the situation.

If she fusses about how he loads the dish washer, she can do it herself. It she fusses about him not cleaning up after himself, her doing all of the cleaning may not be a fair solution, because it leads to her fussing about doing all the work.

There's no definitive solution, it depends on where people's boundaries fall.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> It still ties into my point. She doesn't get to say that sex is dumb and he needs to stop wanting it. He's upset and it needs to be addressed, and maybe that method is to increase her attraction, or whatever else works for them.


If she can get away with it, she can. If she is willing to lose the marriage, she can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fozzy

GettingIt said:


> Yeah, but even that is a mine field. If what I need to be taken care of makes my partner feel devalued or manipulated or whatever, then what you have is a major conflict of needs. Not necessarily a "right vs. wrong" situation.


Part of taking care of your spouse is not putting them in that position.

Ideally (har de har) each spouse would be operating 100% from motivation to make the other happy. You then trust your spouse to do the same for you. Once you reach that point, if there's something your partner still isn't doing, it's probably because there's a bigger problem with that particular thing. If you really trust your spouse at that point, odds are you're going to let whatever that thing is slide (assuming it's been properly communicated).


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Ah, this is where our relationships differ because both me and my wife wanted to get married and want to keep the marriage


Yes, that is a different dynamic than what I am talking about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> Yes, that is a different dynamic than what I am talking about.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife proposed to me so does that mean (under your beliefs) that she is responsible for the marriage?


----------



## Wolf1974

OpenWindows said:


> In some cases, yes. Depends on the situation.
> 
> If she fusses about how he loads the dish washer, she can do it herself. It she fusses about him not cleaning up after himself, her doing all of the cleaning may not be a fair solution, because it leads to her fussing about doing all the work.
> 
> There's no definitive solution, it depends on where people's boundaries fall.


Yes but it could be worked out you do the laundry and I put it away or whatever. But you do illustrate my other point on picking someone your compatible with. I would guess everyone has their things. And if your big thing is something I don't find important then not a good match would me make.


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> My wife proposed to me so does that mean (under your beliefs) that she is responsible for the marriage?


Could be. Does she want it more than you do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> Could be. Does she want it more than you do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No we want it equally now, but she obviously did at the time as I didn't propose (I did however want the relationship). Does your husband want the marriage more than you do?


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> No we want it equally now, but she obviously did at the time as I didn't propose (I did however want the relationship). Does your husband want the marriage more than you do?


I think so.

I think I benefit from it more, though.


----------



## OpenWindows

Wolf1974 said:


> Yes but it could be worked out you do the laundry and I put it away or whatever. But you do illustrate my other point on picking someone your compatible with. I would guess everyone has their things. And if your big thing is something I don't find important then not a good match would me make.


Precisely. It can be worked out, and agreed upon.

But if you want to keep your marriage, telling someone to stop caring about something, or that their feelings on it are unimportant, is NOT a good solution. That's why the guy is living alone with his dirty glass now. :wink2:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I work off the idea that the husband wanted the marriage, and wants to keep the marriage. To that end, he is willing to take responsibility for it. And the person who is willing to take responsibility is the person who seeks to understand first, before he seeks to be understood.


Omg... I dont know how yall can stand to live like that. 

When I read this to my H he would like to know if you are just a passenger in your own body jld.

I hear total disconnect from wanting the marriage and wanting to keep it on your part. 

I dont know how Dug tolerates total lack of concern for marriage support from you.

Its like he has to bow to you to "keep" you and yet you say I'm in a *wife led marriage.* I actually now see that as reversed. You are in a wife led marriage.


----------



## Wolf1974

OpenWindows said:


> Precisely. It can be worked out, and agreed upon.
> 
> But if you want to keep your marriage, telling someone to stop caring about something, or that their feelings on it are unimportant, is NOT a good solution. That's why the guy is living alone with his dirty glass now. :wink2:


That's fine as long as it goes both ways and not a one sided gender based approach. :grin2:


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> I work off the idea that the husband wanted the marriage, and wants to keep the marriage. To that end, he is willing to take responsibility for it. And the person who is willing to take responsibility is the person who seeks to understand first, before he seeks to be understood.


Very sad for your husband that you didn't want the marriage! Or want to keep it!


----------



## farsidejunky

GettingIt said:


> Yeah, but even that is a mine field. If what I need to be taken care of makes my partner feel devalued or manipulated or whatever, then what you have is a major conflict of needs. Not necessarily a "right vs. wrong" situation.


DeMello categorized these as number 3's. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## GettingIt_2

Fozzy said:


> Part of taking care of your spouse is not putting them in that position.
> 
> Ideally (har de har) each spouse would be operating 100% from motivation to make the other happy. You then trust your spouse to do the same for you. Once you reach that point, if there's something your partner still isn't doing, it's probably because there's a bigger problem with that particular thing. *If you really trust your spouse at that point,* odds are you're going to let whatever that thing is slide (assuming it's been properly communicated).


And right there is, like always: trust. 

If you hear "no" and automatically think it means "I won't" instead of "I can't," then there is little anyone can ever say to convince you that acceptance is sometimes the path to happiness. 

I think trust on this level is exceedingly rare. At least around here.

ETA: And I don't mean to say that there still aren't struggles even when you have that sort of trust. It still can suck to realize you have to choose between a real need, and the person you love. And if you chose the person over the need, then you have to work on being happy without that need, and not building resentment over a choice you freely made.


----------



## frusdil

Wolf1974 said:


> Yes but it could be worked out you do the laundry and I put it away or whatever. But you do illustrate my other point on picking someone your compatible with. I would guess everyone has their things. And if your big thing is something I don't find important then not a good match would me make.


So true, but no two people are ever going to be 100% compatible. Both people in the marriage need to let some things slide...not deal breakers obviously, but there'll be something...there always is :smile2:


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> I don't think it is the wife's responsibility to address the sexual frustration of her husband. I think he needs to address with her why she is not attracted. After listening to her, he can think about how to inspire her.
> 
> Jmo.


Hm.. I think that it is both of their responsibility to deal with it. There are probably things that both of them need to address to get back on track and rebuild the attraction. That is what His Needs, Her Needs is about. Both man and wife have to address any issue.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> Hm.. *I think that it is both of their responsibility to deal with it. There are probably things that both of them need to address to get back on track and rebuild the attraction.* That is what His Needs, Her Needs is about. Both man and wife have to address any issue.


Could you give an example, Ele?

Other than when I am angry with my husband, I feel attracted to him. Once he repairs whatever it is I am angry about (or as MEM would say, hurt by or fearful of), the attraction is right back. 

That is why, to me, it would be on the man, if he is not happy with his wife's level of attraction to him, to address it and inspire her to more.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Could you give an example, Ele?
> 
> Other than when I am angry with my husband, I feel attracted to him. Once he repairs whatever it is I am angry about (or as MEM would say, hurt by or fearful of), the attraction is right back.
> 
> That is why, to me, it would be on the man, if he is not happy with his wife's level of attraction to him, to address it and inspire her to more.


This position assumes the man never loses attraction for the woman.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> This position assumes the man never loses attraction for the woman.


Yes. My husband is always attracted, no matter what. So that is definitely the framework I am working from.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Yes. My husband is always attracted, no matter what. So that is definitely the framework I am working from.


At least for now...


There are MANY things women do to cause a man to lose attraction for her. You and Dug are not immune to those things. To think that you are leaves your relationship at risk.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> At least for now...
> 
> 
> There are MANY things women do to cause a man to lose attraction for her. You and Dug are not immune to those things. To think that you are leaves your relationship at risk.


I just cannot see it, Blossom. Dug's attraction is a non-question in my life.

It must be very hard for women who do have that worry, though.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I just cannot see it, Blossom. Dug's attraction is a non-question in my life.
> 
> It must be very hard for women who do have that worry, though.




Its a non-question for now.

Ignore the ***** in the armour at your own peril.

I see it coming.

I hope you are right.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Its a non-question for now.
> 
> Ignore the ***** in the armour at your own peril.
> 
> I see it coming.
> 
> I hope you are right.


I'm sure I am.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I'm sure I am.


Until you're not


----------



## Ms. GP

jld said:


> Yes. My husband is always attracted, no matter what. So that is definitely the framework I am working from.


Question @jld. Does your hubby ever get angry/annoyed/upset with you? What happens if and when he does? Just curious.


----------



## just got it 55

BlueWoman said:


> I love how you just proved the authors point.
> 
> Here is my priority in a relationship, my wants and needs are just as important as his. In a relationship I believe it's my responsibility to figure out what makes him happy (or at least happier) and do it. I don't do things that make his life more difficult or more irritating. But that's a two streak. And I hate to say it, but I rarely see examples of men going out of their way for their wives happiness as much as the women go out of their way for their husbands. (This isn't always true. It does happen.) And in fact men are chastised for doing that. Ever heard of the term "***** whipped"? It's not socially acceptable to care about your wife's feelings. It's not socially acceptable to understand and respect that she has different values and responsibilities.
> 
> But here's the thing, I don't have to put up with that. I work full time as well. I don't have to stay married. (And I didn't.) I used to be totally pro marriage. But having done it, I got to say, it was a raw deal for me and I'm not sure I would want to do it again. (To note: I do take responsibility for my failing marriage. I was completely codependent. Sadly, when I stepped back hoping he would do his share he couldn't do it. But what can I expect, he never could it.)


I liked this post because I have two daughters

55


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> Question @jld. Does your hubby ever get angry/annoyed/upset with you? What happens if and when he does? Just curious.


Yes, not very often, though. He talks to me about it. I try to do what he wants. 

If I can't, or don't want to, I usually tell him. Even when I don't say it, he usually knows. I have a hard time hiding anything.

He knows I want to please him. I want to feel close to him. He does not try to manipulate me with that, fortunately.

How about you, Ms GP?


----------



## Celes

BetrayedDad said:


> Celes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow that article was ridiculous. And I'm a woman. Honestly, the dude sounds like a total wimp. That's probably really why she left him. Has nothing to do with dirty cups.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow...
> 
> Will you marry me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

Haha. Sorry, already married to a non-wimp 



breeze said:


> Celes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow that article was ridiculous. And I'm a woman. Honestly, the dude sounds like a total wimp. That's probably really why she left him. Has nothing to do with dirty cups.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, but are you calling him a wimp because of what he didn't do while he was married or because of what he thinks about it now?
Click to expand...

I'm calling him a wimp for sitting around blaming himself over dirty dishes and failing to see that if that's all it took for his wife to leave, then good riddance. Yes, we should try to respect and be there for our spouse and meet their needs as best we can. But some so called "needs" are really just entitlements. Dirty dishes were a big deal to her, but not him and it doesn't mean he's wrong for not seeing her way. Why must he be the one to agree with her and not the other way around?

If my husband were to come up to me and say "Babe, I really have a need to bang other women. It would make me feel loved and respected." Should I just allow him to sleep with other women because it's a "need"? You can bet if he left over that "need", I wouldn't be kicking myself over it.


----------



## Ms. GP

jld said:


> Yes, not very often, though. He talks to me about it. I try to do what he wants.
> 
> If I can't, or don't want to, I usually tell him. Even when I don't say it, he usually knows. I have a hard time hiding anything.
> 
> He knows I want to please him. I want to feel close to him. He does not try to manipulate me with that, fortunately.
> 
> How about you, Ms GP?


Thanks for answering that. So if you can't / won't, that's the end of it?

In my case, Also does not happen very often, I hear about it very quickly. (so does he btw) No resentment building in my house! 

We usually figure out some kind of compromise depending on who the issue is more important too. For example, kids extracurriculars are more important to him so he makes most of those decisions. The family's health care is my domain and I make all the health decisions for the family.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Celes said:


> Haha. Sorry, already married to a non-wimp
> 
> 
> 
> I'm calling him a wimp for sitting around blaming himself over dirty dishes and failing to see that if that's all it took for his wife to leave, then good riddance. Yes, we should try to respect and be there for our spouse and meet their needs as best we can. But some so called "needs" are really just entitlements. Dirty dishes were a big deal to her, but not him and it doesn't mean he's wrong for not seeing her way. Why must he be the one to agree with her and not the other way around?
> 
> If my husband were to come up to me and say "Babe, I really have a need to bang other women. It would make me feel loved and respected." Should I just allow him to sleep with other women because it's a "need"? You can bet if he left over that "need", I wouldn't be kicking myself over it.


Amen Sister


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> You still didn't answer my question
> 
> What would you tell your wife if she told you it was very important to her that you put your glass in the dishwasher instead of the sink?


I've said it many times. 

I'd say no, I'll put it away when I'm done with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ms. GP said:


> Thanks for answering that. So if you can't / won't, that's the end of it?
> 
> In my case, Also does not happen very often, I hear about it very quickly. (so does he btw) No resentment building in my house!
> 
> We usually figure out some kind of compromise depending on who the issue is more important too. For example, kids extracurriculars are more important to him so he makes most of those decisions. The family's health care is my domain and I make all the health decisions for the family.


Same here... We don't leave things unresolved here.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> I've said it many times.
> 
> I'd say no, I'll put it away when I'm done with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's the other angle of that too. My husband said he would keep the glass to keep from creating too much mess in order to keep me from overloaded with work.


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> Thanks for answering that. So if you can't / won't, that's the end of it?
> 
> In my case, Also does not happen very often, I hear about it very quickly. (so does he btw) No resentment building in my house!
> 
> We usually figure out some kind of compromise depending on who the issue is more important too. For example, kids extracurriculars are more important to him so he makes most of those decisions. The family's health care is my domain and I make all the health decisions for the family.


Nothing is really a closed case here. Anything can be brought up and rethought at any time. Very open atmosphere.

I think about what Dug says when we disagree. But I have to genuinely be in agreement. I am not going to try to be anything I am not. Would not work anyway.

When it comes right down to it, I think we accept each other for who we are. And we influence each other.

Dug does not have any resentment. I have had some. But we talk about it, and that helps bring me peace.

It is hard to fully and accurately describe the inner workings of a 20+ year relationship in a few sentences. I know that I rely on Dug, and he feels responsible for the marriage. I will help, but I don't feel the responsibility I think other women feel. I really do think this is ultimately his project. I am certainly affected, though, so I do try to be helpful.

Your letting each person manage what is important to them is an efficient way to do things. I still want Dug to be involved in my areas, though. I lean on him for emotional support. I have a lot of self-doubt.

Ms GP, you seemed pretty distressed earlier in this thread. Do you think you just have too much on your plate?


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> I've said it many times.
> 
> I'd say no, I'll put it away when I'm done with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's kind of a perspective thing. It's easy for you to say you'll put it away when you're done, because you know at some point you'll put it away. And your wife knows you will, so she doesn't worry much about it.

My XH would leave his dirty dishes on the counter and the furniture, because they didn't bother him at all. He figured if they bothered me, I could clean them up. But NO mess ever bothered him, so I was forever cleaning up his messes. And from my perspective, it was absolutely unfair for him to say that he didn't care about the messes so I should do all of the cleaning. I'm not his maid, and its not unreasonable for me to not want to live in his filth. Sometimes "if it bothers you, you deal with it" can be a really raw deal for one spouse... and if you'd like to keep that spouse, you should be aware of that. 

So if it's just a glass in an otherwise happy relationship, maybe it shouldn't be a huge deal, and usually it's not. But I don't think a lot of divorces happen over just a glass, and the author knows perfectly well his wife didn't leave over just a glass.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> It's kind of a perspective thing. It's easy for you to say you'll put it away when you're done, because you know at some point you'll put it away. And your wife knows you will, so she doesn't worry much about it.
> 
> My XH would leave his dirty dishes on the counter and the furniture, because they didn't bother him at all. He figured if they bothered me, I could clean them up. But NO mess ever bothered him, so I was forever cleaning up his messes. And from my perspective, it was absolutely unfair for him to say that he didn't care about the messes so I should do all of the cleaning. I'm not his maid, and its not unreasonable for me to not want to live in his filth. Sometimes "if it bothers you, you deal with it" can be a really raw deal for one spouse... and if you'd like to keep that spouse, you should be aware of that.
> 
> So if it's just a glass in an otherwise happy relationship, maybe it shouldn't be a huge deal, and usually it's not. But I don't think a lot of divorces happen over just a glass, and the author knows perfectly well his wife didn't leave over just a glass.


Is your ex bitter about your leaving, OW?


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> Is your ex bitter about your leaving, OW?


Yes. Bitter and depressed... He goes back and forth, depending on his mood. Logically he understands why I felt mistreated. But emotionally, he thinks it's horribly unfair that he ran out of chances to fix it.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> Yes. Bitter and depressed... He goes back and forth, depending on his mood. Logically he understands why I felt mistreated. But emotionally, he thinks it's horribly unfair that he ran out of chances to fix it.


He still has not taken responsibility. Sad.


----------



## Ms. GP

jld said:


> Nothing is really a closed case here. Anything can be brought up and rethought at any time. Very open atmosphere.
> 
> I think about what Dug says when we disagree. But I have to genuinely be in agreement. I am not going to try to be anything I am not. Would not work anyway.
> 
> When it comes right down to it, I think we accept each other for who we are. And we influence each other.
> 
> Dug does not have any resentment. I have had some. But we talk about it, and that helps bring me peace.
> 
> It is hard to fully and accurately describe the inner workings of a 20+ year relationship in a few sentences. I know that I rely on Dug, and he feels responsible for the marriage. I will help, but I don't feel the responsibility I think other women feel. I really do think this is ultimately his project. I am certainly affected, though, so I do try to be helpful.
> 
> Your letting each person manage what is important to them is an efficient way to do things. I still want Dug to be involved in my areas, though. I lean on him for emotional support. I have a lot of self-doubt.
> 
> Ms GP, you seemed pretty distressed earlier in this thread. Do you think you just have too much on your plate?


Thank you for sharing again. It is hard to boil it down to a few sentences. I agree. 

I don't want to thread jack, but yes distressed is an understatement. My job that I worked for almost three years to get, is closing the store I'm in after only a month with the company. I have no idea if they are going to keep me or not, and I'm desperately trying to keep my job or find another one (which is very difficult. Long story) Also we had to put our dog to sleep last night. When it rains, it pours.


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> Thank you for sharing again. It is hard to boil it down to a few sentences. I agree.
> 
> I don't want to thread jack, but yes distressed is an understatement. My job that I worked for almost three years to get, is closing the store I'm in after only a month with the company. I have no idea if they are going to keep me or not, and I'm desperately trying to keep my job or find another one (which is very difficult. Long story) Also we had to put our dog to sleep last night. When it rains, it pours.


I'm so sorry about your dog, Ms. GP.  How are the kids coping?

I'm sorry to hear about your job troubles, too. I can understand how it might be complicated. Just hoping the very best for you. 

You are right: when it rains, it pours.


----------



## jld

I would like to read more from this author. He talked a little bit on one post about how men need to show more leadership in their families. I think he is right on with that.


----------



## Ms. GP

jld said:


> I'm so sorry about your dog, Ms. GP.  How are the kids coping?
> 
> I'm sorry to hear about your job troubles, too. I can understand how it might be complicated. Just hoping the very best for you.
> 
> You are right: when it rains, it pours.


Thanks. Kids are doing remarkably well. Hubby is really upset over the dog. The dog was his morning cuddle buddy. It's sad.


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> Thanks. Kids are doing remarkably well. Hubby is really upset over the dog. The dog was his morning cuddle buddy. It's sad.


Glad to hear the kids are doing well. Hope BP feels better soon. 

You always seem very caring towards him. I am sure he appreciates your comfort.


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> I would like to read more from this author. He talked a little bit on one post about how men need to show more leadership in their families. I think he is right on with that.


His blog is interesting, and very sad. I think many people could benefit from reading more.

Part of my frustration with this whole discussion is that so many posters are isolating the glass article and then treating it like a ridiculous issue. But I'm looking at the blog as a whole, which paints a picture of a troubled marriage with a lonely wife and happily oblivious husband. The glass article looks different to me in that context.


----------



## jld

Apparently the author has gotten blowback from other men, too:


_I know it’s hard, guys.

I’ll never be confused for a genius or scholar, but I’m reasonably bright in a Get B+ and A- Grades Without Trying kind-of way. And I made all of the same arguments you’re making. I repeated them until I was blue in the face, sometimes in my best ****head voice while my wife and I volleyed shots at each other in another fight in which no winner would emerge.

I agreed with you so much that I unknowingly bet my entire family on it. And lost._


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> His blog is interesting, and very sad. I think many people could benefit from reading more.
> 
> Part of my frustration with this whole discussion is that so many posters are isolating the glass article and then treating it like a ridiculous issue. But I'm looking at the blog as a whole, which paints a picture of a troubled marriage with a lonely wife and happily oblivious husband. The glass article looks different to me in that context.


I think a lot of men don't want to see what the author is saying. They are probably closer to being in his position than they realize. 

And if they cannot listen to him, they might be writing similar posts one day.


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> I think a lot of men don't want to see what the author is saying. They are probably closer to being in his position than they realize.
> 
> And if they cannot listen to him, they might be writing similar posts one day.


I think there will always be a clear divide on this, based on personality. Some men will say good riddance, I don't want to be married to a woman like that, and they'll mean it. And some men will wish they'd done it differently, because they loved that woman and just didn't know any better. Those two sets of men aren't going to agree on this issue at all.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> I think there will always be a clear divide on this, based on personality. Some men will say good riddance, I don't want to be married to a woman like that, and they'll mean it. And some men will wish they'd done it differently, because they loved that woman and just didn't know any better. Those two sets of men aren't going to agree on this issue at all.


I think some guys realize they *cannot* be married to a woman like that. They truly need a woman to care for them, to reach out and try to understand them, to make them feel loved and respected . . . _first._ Then they can respond in kind.

The author realizes now that he needed to do those things for his wife, _first._ I think he knows he was capable. He just did not *want* to. And he is paying for it.


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> I think some guys realize they *cannot* be married to a woman like that. They truly need a woman to care for them, to reach out and try to understand them, to make them feel loved and respected . . . _first._ Then they can respond in kind.


My XH needed this, A LOT of this. It was easier for me to give him that when we were younger and carefree. But as life went on and my needs changed, it wasn't working anymore. When I needed him to take care of me, that wasn't what he wanted and wasn't what he signed up for. When he couldn't meet my needs, it eroded my love and respect for him, and made me less inclined to take care of him. When I didn't take care of him like he wanted, he was less inclined to try to meet my needs. And that cycle just went on and on until I finally broke.

I see it more clearly now that he's trying to date again... He really wants a woman to take care of him, but he's very attracted to feisty, independent women, and he doesn't see how those things fundamentally mismatch.


----------



## soccermom2three

jld said:


> I think a lot of men don't want to see what the author is saying. They are probably closer to being in his position than they realize.
> 
> 
> 
> And if they cannot listen to him, they might be writing similar posts one day.



Yes! I don't understand this defense for the right to have a mediocre or unsatisfying marriage.


----------



## lifeistooshort

OpenWindows said:


> I think there will always be a clear divide on this, based on personality. Some men will say good riddance, I don't want to be married to a woman like that, and they'll mean it. And some men will wish they'd done it differently, because they loved that woman and just didn't know any better. Those two sets of men aren't going to agree on this issue at all.


For them men who would say good riddance there's no problem, because for them the prices of staying married to such a woman isn't worth it. That's ok, that is their decision to make.

But this guy didn't want to lose her, and therein lies the problem. The guys who will suffer are the ones who don't want to hear it but don't want to get divorced.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> My XH needed this, A LOT of this. It was easier for me to give him that when we were younger and carefree. But as life went on and my needs changed, it wasn't working anymore. When I needed him to take care of me, that wasn't what he wanted and wasn't what he signed up for. When he couldn't meet my needs, it eroded my love and respect for him, and made me less inclined to take care of him. When I didn't take care of him like he wanted, he was less inclined to try to meet my needs. And that cycle just went on and on until I finally broke.
> 
> I see it more clearly now that he's trying to date again... He really wants a woman to take care of him, but he's very attracted to feisty, independent women, and he doesn't see how those things fundamentally mismatch.


Or how those feisty, independent women may be fine taking care of a man before they have children. Once the children come, they are stretched pretty thin.


----------



## jld

soccermom2three said:


> Yes! I don't understand this defense for the right to have a mediocre or unsatisfying marriage.


Dug says a lot of men seem defensive on this topic. He says they just don't want to do the work.

It might be that, just a lack of humility. But I would agree with OW that some men are just not capable of putting a woman first. Those men have to feel cared for first themselves in order to be able to then care for their wives. A sort of emotional responsive desire.


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> Or how those feisty, independent women may be fine taking care of a man before they have children. Once the children come, they are stretched pretty thin.


Precisely. We were mostly fine until the kids came along. Neither of us anticipated how much that would really change things.

So it's easy to say that we weren't very compatible and shouldn't have married, but we really seemed fairly compatible until it was too late. That lesson will help us both going forward, but doesn't soothe the pain of a marriage already broken.


----------



## Wolf1974

frusdil said:


> So true, but no two people are ever going to be 100% compatible. Both people in the marriage need to let some things slide...not deal breakers obviously, but there'll be something...there always is :smile2:


No doubt. But so long as those big ones are covered it's amazing how the small ones never become the big issue


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> But I would agree with OW that some men are just not capable of putting a woman first. Those men have to feel cared for first themselves in order to be able to then care for their wives. A sort of emotional responsive desire.


Emotional responsive desire... I really like that!

When a woman doesn't understand her sexual responsive desire, her husband's sexual need seem very unreasonable to her. Maybe when a man doesn't understand his emotional responsive desire, his wife's emotional needs seem unreasonable.

If my XH had been able to tell me that he couldn't care for me until I cared for him first, I might have been better able to make the first gesture when I really needed something in return. But instead, I just wondered why he didn't *want* to care for me when I needed it (just like a frustrated man wonders why his responsive wife won't initiate once in a while).


----------



## Livvie

Hi,

Would you have been able to live forever with that dynamic, of his needs to be loved and supported ALWAYS coming first, even at a time when YOU needed taking care of?


----------



## ButtPunch

Maybe so ladies....but I think the blog poster is not the norm.

I have read countless WAW threads and one thing in common in most is that
after a period of time the OP comes back and says he's the happiest he
has ever been and that his ex did him a huge favor by leaving. They 
usually meet someone else and cannot believe the amount of disrespect
they tolerated in order to try and stay married.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Maybe so ladies....but I think the blog poster is not the norm.
> 
> I have read countless WAW threads and one thing in common in most is that
> after a period of time the OP comes back and says he's the happiest he
> has ever been and that his ex did him a huge favor by leaving. They
> usually meet someone else and cannot believe the amount of disrespect
> they tolerated in order to try and stay married.


He has matured quite a bit through this experience. That is why I am glad he is writing to other men.

A new woman is not going to be the mother of the children he already has. That can offer some complications. Might have been better to just listen to what the original wife was trying to tell him . . .


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> Dug says a lot of men seem defensive on this topic. He says they just don't want to do the work.
> 
> It might be that, just a lack of humility. But I would agree with OW that some men are just not capable of putting a woman first. Those men have to feel cared for first themselves in order to be able to then care for their wives. A sort of emotional responsive desire.


Dug, who I presume is you husband, comes on here and answers a question with a question then runs away until the next thread. Why does he avoid defending bis position?


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

I can see the author of the blog getting into a new relationship then wondering why his wife left him for someone else who stood up to her more. I can see the wife getting into a new relationship then leaving him wondering why she left because he left a pube on the toilet seat. She lacks communication skills imo


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> I think some guys realize they *cannot* be married to a woman like that. They truly need a woman to care for them, to reach out and try to understand them, to make them feel loved and respected . . . _first._ Then they can respond in kind.
> 
> The author realizes now that he needed to do those things for his wife, _first._ I think he knows he was capable. He just did not *want* to. And he is paying for it.


I'm not even sure that in these types of cases (note.. not all marriages) that the husband has to reach out first. 

I think that often (in these cases) it starts out with both spouses giving and caring pretty generously. That's why they got together. But then one of them (A) starts taking things for granted, slacks of and becomes self centered. A's needs are being met so they think that all is good. They don't ever stop to check in with their, or to really listen to their spouse (B). 

Then over time, B's needs are no longer being met. B keeps trying to tell A that they are not happy and why. A is happy, and blows off what says.

And then the marriage spirals down and down for B. A is still happy because B is still meeting A's needs.

I do think that there are both men and women who take on the role of A here... happy and self centered. Thus they ignore their spouse's needs. IN B's mind, if B is happy there is no problem and surly A is happy.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

EleGirl said:


> I'm not even sure that in these types of cases (note.. not all marriages) that the husband has to reach out first.
> 
> I think that often (in these cases) it starts out with both spouses giving and caring pretty generously. That's why they got together. But then one of them (A) starts taking things for granted, slacks of and becomes self centered. A's needs are being met so they think that all is good. They don't ever stop to check in with their, or to really listen to their spouse (B).
> 
> Then over time, B's needs are no longer being met. B keeps trying to tell A that they are not happy and why. A is happy, and blows off what says.
> 
> And then the marriage spirals down and down for B. A is still happy because B is still meeting A's needs.
> 
> I do think that there are both men and women who take on the role of A here... happy and self centered. Thus they ignore their spouse's needs. IN B's mind, if B is happy there is no problem and surly A is happy.


True, I think that is conditioned in the early relationship and actually being yourself at the time is a better strategy


----------



## OpenWindows

Livvie said:


> Hi,
> 
> Would you have been able to live forever with that dynamic, of his needs to be loved and supported ALWAYS coming first, even at a time when YOU needed taking care of?


I could not. I tried, I failed, and I left. I hope someday he finds someone who can give him what he needs... but it won't be me.


----------



## EleGirl

Julius Beastcavern said:


> I can see the author of the blog getting into a new relationship then wondering why his wife left him for someone else who stood up to her more. I can see the wife getting into a new relationship then leaving him wondering why she left because he left a pube on the toilet seat. She lacks communication skills imo


You have no idea if she lacks communication skills. All you know is what the guy wrote.


----------



## Evinrude58

My opinion is that some people are chronically discontented. No matter who they marry, they won't stay happy. 
I think the guy in this article, and some of the women that post here (very few, but a couple) may fall into that category. 
Some people just don't really know how to be happy. Could this be pat of the WalkawAy syndrome?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

EleGirl said:


> You have no idea if she lacks communication skills. All you know is what the guy wrote.



That's all you know as well so you have no idea either hence I said IMO


----------



## EleGirl

Evinrude58 said:


> My opinion is that some people are chronically discontented. No matter who they marry, they won't stay happy.
> 
> I think the guy in this article, and some of the women that post here (very few, but a couple) may fall into that category.
> 
> Some people just don't really know how to be happy. Could this be pat of the WalkawAy syndrome?


I agree that there are people who are chronically discontent. That goes for both genders (or perhaps today I should say all genders?)

The easiest way to tell who is chronically discontent is to look at how they are before the marriage and after the divorce.

A chronically discontent person will be discontent even after the divorce, even after they have had time to heal from the trauma of their failed marriage.

I'm not sure how many WAWs or WAHs are discontent after they walk away. I was reading something yesterday about this topic. The researchers found that most women who divorce are pretty happy with their lives after the divorce. My bet is that over the long run, most men are too.


----------



## Livvie

OpenWindows said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Would you have been able to live forever with that dynamic, of his needs to be loved and supported ALWAYS coming first, even at a time when YOU needed taking care of?
> 
> 
> 
> I could not. I tried, I failed, and I left. I hope someday he finds someone who can give him what he needs... but it won't be me.
Click to expand...

I was in a relationship with someone like this after my divorce. I couldn't do it, either!!


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

OpenWindows said:


> I could not. I tried, I failed, and I left. I hope someday he finds someone who can give him what he needs... but it won't be me.


I hope you find someone who gives you what you need


----------



## EleGirl

Julius Beastcavern said:


> That's all you know as well so you have no idea either hence I said IMO


Yep, that's all I know too. Which is why I stuck to what he actually wrote.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

EleGirl said:


> Yep, that's all I know too. Which is why I stuck to what he actually wrote.


Yes but being male/female our interpretation is different which is the point of his blog I think


----------



## OpenWindows

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure how many WAWs or WAHs are discontent after they walk away. I was reading something yesterday about this topic. The researchers found that most women who divorce are pretty happy with their lives after the divorce. My bet is that over the long run, most men are too.


I know I'm happier now!

I've read that husbands of walk-away wives also tend to be happier and more successful with their later marriages. Lessons learned, I guess.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Julius Beastcavern said:


> I can see the author of the blog getting into a new relationship then wondering why his wife left him for someone else who stood up to her more. I can see the wife getting into a new relationship then leaving him wondering why she left because he left a pube on the toilet seat. She lacks communication skills imo


Guess I don't understand why you'd say this. The guy directly says she tried to talk him and he ignored it, so what more is she supposed to do? 

If we had a woman here whose hb had left her and she admitted that he'd told her many times that he needed more sex but she either ignored him or tried to argue that his position was unreasonable would you say that he had communication problems? 

In that scenario he told her what he needed, she just ignored it. This guy admits she told him, he just ignored it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Yes but being male/female our interpretation is different which is the point of his blog I think


I don’t think that the point of his blog is that there is a universal difference in male/female interpretation of a martial dynamic similar to his. 

I think that the point of his blog is that his wife told him what her needs were and he did not care enough and was so hung up in a power struggle that he chose to ignore her needs.

Reverse the genders and the same things would happen. There are men who post here with the same type of issues. For some of them, it is about things like housework. The wife just leaves it all up to him, he tells her his needs, and she blows him off.

What would you tell a man whose wife ignored his needs, refused to do housework (or fill in the blank _________ ), ignored his needs even after he clearly told her what his needs were.. yet she continued to blow him off because she thought that his needs made no sense.

Would you really just tell him that the problem was that he did not communicate well (even though you have no idea how he did communicate)? Would you tell him that he was making too much of it, that his needs were just silly?

I doubt it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> I've said it many times.
> 
> I'd say no, I'll put it away when I'm done with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand. But if she is like my wife, she will never let it go. And even if she agrees, underneath, resentment will be growing.


----------



## just got it 55

marduk said:


> I've said it many times.
> 
> I'd say no, I'll put it away when I'm done with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is why I use paper cups

Call me PA :grin2:

55


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Dug says a lot of men seem defensive on this topic. He says they just don't want to do the work.
> 
> It might be that, just a lack of humility. But I would agree with OW that some men are just not capable of putting a woman first. Those men have to feel cared for first themselves in order to be able to then care for their wives. A sort of emotional responsive desire.


In our relationship I have always been the giver and she is the taker. It worked pretty well for a number of reasons. 

At a certain point, giving stopped meaning much to her. I was not giving enough. I was giving the wrong way. Nothing is good enough. 

This is why I see the glass issue as an insignificant thing. Something that if he did, it wouldn't matter. Because she would only find something else that he was doing wrong.

A giver can stop giving. But you can't change a taker into a giver. My choice is to keep giving or leave. 

I think the guy is sad about losing his wife, but when he finds someone else, he might wonder why he put up with her as long as he did. He is blogging out of loneliness.


----------



## Evinrude58

SadSamIAm said:


> In our relationship I have always been the giver and she is the taker. It worked pretty well for a number of reasons.
> 
> At a certain point, giving stopped meaning much to her. I was not giving enough. I was giving the wrong way. Nothing is good enough.
> 
> This is why I see the glass issue as an insignificant thing. Something that if he did, it wouldn't matter. Because she would only find something else that he was doing wrong.
> 
> A giver can stop giving. But you can't change a taker into a giver. My choice is to keep giving or leave.
> 
> I think the guy is sad about losing his wife, but when he finds someone else, he might wonder why he put up with her as long as he did. He is blogging out of loneliness.


Excellent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> I understand. But if she is like my wife, she will never let it go. And even if she agrees, underneath, resentment will be growing.


Your wife sounds a lot like my ex (son's father) in this regard. He would find something like that and hold on to it. The only way he would let it go is if I changed my behavior to do what he wanted. Then he would find another thing to do this with.

In the last few months of our marriage he finally communicated the problem.

"All I ever asked of you was that you keep the house clean."

It was an outrageous statement because that is not all he ever asked of me... and the house was always in good shape given our circumstances. Plus, why is it my job to clean the house?

As I said, this sort of behavior is not gender specific.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I think the guy is sad about losing his wife, but when he finds someone else, he might wonder why he put up with her as long as he did. He is blogging out of loneliness.


It could work out that way. Or he might always regret losing her. She is the mother of his child, after all. And he did love her. Probably still does.


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> In our relationship I have always been the giver and she is the taker. It worked pretty well for a number of reasons.
> 
> At a certain point, giving stopped meaning much to her. I was not giving enough. I was giving the wrong way. Nothing is good enough.
> 
> This is why I see the glass issue as an insignificant thing. Something that if he did, it wouldn't matter. Because she would only find something else that he was doing wrong.
> 
> A giver can stop giving. But you can't change a taker into a giver. My choice is to keep giving or leave.
> 
> I think the guy is sad about losing his wife, but when he finds someone else, he might wonder why he put up with her as long as he did. He is blogging out of loneliness.


Or, it could have been exactly as he says.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> As I said, this sort of behavior is not gender specific.


Neither sex has a monopoly on selfishness. But what I read in his blog does remind me of Gottman's research. 


From 12 Amazing Relationship Truths (as discovered by John Gottman, a marriage researcher at U of WA):


_7. Men who allow their wives to influence them have happier marriages and are less likely to divorce than men who resist their wives' influence. *The happiest, most stable marriages were the ones in which the husband treated his wife with respect and didn't resist power sharing and decision making with her but actively searched for common ground with her.* (Stonewalling and refusing to plan things out with her is a power play. The one who says the least has the most power. *When a man ignores her influence, it creates instability in the relationship and the marriage will be damaged*).

Women tend to allow their husbands to influence them. *The research bears out that she can, in anger, escalate into negativity and it won't harm the marriage but if the husband does it (through stonewalling or bullying) it does harm their marriage.* If the husband accepts her influence, the wife is less likely to be harsh when something causes stress. If she feels hopeless about being able to influence him, she will be "triggered" and her negativity will escalate.

*When a husband accepts his wifes influence, his open attitude heightens the positive in his relationship by strengthening his friendship with his wife. It makes it easier for him to deepen his love map of her, bolster fondness and admiraton and turn toward his wife. *This helps him learn from his wife many of the emotional skills that she learned growing up and he didn't. Studies show that from a very young age (1 1/2 years), boys will accept influence only from boys when they play and girls accept influence from boys and girls equally.

8. *The emotionally intelligent husband*:

*Learns how to connect with his wife
Chooses "us" over "me"*
Makes his career less of a priority than his marriage
*Makes a detailed map of his wife's world
Keeps in daily touch with his admiration and fondness of her
Communicates his admiration and fondness of her by turning toward her in a myriad of daily actions*
This leads to a meaningful and rich life
Having this happy home base makes it possible for him to create and work effectively
*Because he is so connected to his mate, she will not only come to him when she is troubled but also when she is delighted*

9. *More than 80% of the time, it is the wife who brings up sticky marital issues, while the husband tries to avoid discussing them. *This isn't a symptom of a troubled marriage- it's true in most happy marriages as well._


----------



## soccermom2three

ButtPunch said:


> Maybe so ladies....but I think the blog poster is not the norm.
> 
> I have read countless WAW threads and one thing in common in most is that
> after a period of time the OP comes back and says he's the happiest he
> has ever been and that his ex did him a huge favor by leaving. They
> usually meet someone else and cannot believe the amount of disrespect
> they tolerated in order to try and stay married.


Then the PEA chemicals will wear off and he'll be back to square one because he didn't learn anything from the dissolution of his first marriage.


----------



## lifeistooshort

SadSamIAm said:


> In our relationship I have always been the giver and she is the taker. It worked pretty well for a number of reasons.
> 
> At a certain point, giving stopped meaning much to her. I was not giving enough. I was giving the wrong way. Nothing is good enough.
> 
> This is why I see the glass issue as an insignificant thing. Something that if he did, it wouldn't matter. Because she would only find something else that he was doing wrong.
> 
> A giver can stop giving. But you can't change a taker into a giver. My choice is to keep giving or leave.
> 
> I think the guy is sad about losing his wife, but when he finds someone else, he might wonder why he put up with her as long as he did. He is blogging out of loneliness.



How exactly do you deduce from his blog that his wife was the taker?

I read a lot if it and it seems to me that he may have been the taker. Why would you assume it's her?

And you don't even know that the glass was the issue. ....he is the one who brings it up but it's entirely possible that if you asked her about the demise of the marriage the glass would never come up.

As far as him meeting someone else, that's possible..... that he'll meet a better match, but you could've said the same thing about my ex. Yet 11 years later he's still unable to keep a relationship together, so that suggests the problem was him. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I understand. But if she is like my wife, she will never let it go. And even if she agrees, underneath, resentment will be growing.


Her resentment for her own unreasonableness is not your problem.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Her resentment for her own unreasonableness is not your problem.


_Oh, I think it might become his problem . . ._


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> Her resentment for her own unreasonableness is not your problem.


If I chose to leave, it wouldn't be my problem. Since for now, I have chosen to stay, it most definitely is a problem.


----------



## SadSamIAm

lifeistooshort said:


> How exactly do you deduce from his blog that his wife was the taker?
> 
> I read a lot if it and it seems to me that he may have been the taker. Why would you assume it's her?
> 
> And you don't even know that the glass was the issue. ....he is the one who brings it up but it's entirely possible that if you asked her about the demise of the marriage the glass would never come up.
> 
> As far as him meeting someone else, that's possible..... that he'll meet a better match, but you could've said the same thing about my ex. Yet 11 years later he's still unable to keep a relationship together, so that suggests the problem was him.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Earlier people have talked about how different people see the situation differently because of their own situation. When the guy mention how important the glass was to his wife, it made me think of how particular my wife is about such things. 

I suggest you are doing the same thing equating this guy to your husband who hasn't been able to find a partner.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> If I chose to leave, it wouldn't be my problem. Since for now, I have chosen to stay, it most definitely is a problem.


You seem pretty unhappy with the status quo.

Yet, you want to stay.

So why would the situation change?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> _Oh, I think it might become his problem . . ._


Taking on responsibility for someone else's unreasonableness is the ultimate white knight move.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> You seem pretty unhappy with the status quo.
> 
> Yet, you want to stay.
> 
> So why would the situation change?


Because it always has. Although the good times are less and less, they still happen. 

I am unhappy with the stats quo. That is why I read TAM and other relationship books. Always looking for ways to make things better.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Taking on responsibility for someone else's unreasonableness is the ultimate white knight move.


Unreasonableness (is that a word?) may be in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Unreasonableness (is that a word?) may be in the eye of the beholder.


It is a word if we make it one.

So, let me ask you a question, because this issue right here matters. Why? Because THIS is where abusive attitudes live.

Here is the question.

Was it reasonable or unreasonable for my mother to say to me, "If you have a relationship with your birth father it will crush your Daddy's (step dad) heart."

Reasonable or Unreasonable?

I'll tell you what my counselor said AFTER you answer. And don't side step this one jld.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> It is a word if we make it one.
> 
> So, let me ask you a question, because this issue right here matters. Why? Because THIS is where abusive attitudes live.
> 
> Here is the question.
> 
> Was it reasonable or unreasonable for my mother to say to me, "If you have a relationship with your birth father it will crush your Daddy's (step dad) heart."
> 
> Reasonable or Unreasonable?
> 
> I'll tell you what my counselor said AFTER you answer. And don't side step this one jld.


Unreasonable. It is your own business who you have a relationship with. Any mature man knows and respects that. 

Very fearful on your mother's part. I hope your stepfather reassured you that it was your choice what to do regarding your birth father, that his love for you was independent of that. I hope he reassured your mother in the face of her fears, too.

But something tells me it probably did not go down that way . . .


----------



## lifeistooshort

SadSamIAm said:


> Earlier people have talked about how different people see the situation differently because of their own situation. When the guy mention how important the glass was to his wife, it made me think of how particular my wife is about such things.
> 
> I suggest you are doing the same thing equating this guy to your husband who hasn't been able to find a partner.


Not really, I'm considering what he wrote about himself. And I also like to consider what the unrepresented party might say, but in this case it's hard for me to imagine her having a vastly different story.

I'm sure she wasn't perfect, nobody is. But some of the stuff he admits to saying and doing is pretty sh!tty. 

This guy is leaps and bounds ahead of my ex, my ex has no ability to self reflect. This guy has done a ton of it which will undoubtedly make him a better partner then he was. 

It just seems like you're trying to convince yourself that he couldn't be that bad and his wife must've just been selfish, when you have no basis for that assumption. Could you be projecting based on your own situation?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Unreasonable. It is your own business who you have a relationship with. Any mature man knows and respects that.
> 
> Very fearful on your mother's part. I hope your stepfather reassured you that it was your choice what to do regarding your birth father, that his love for you was independent of that. I hope he reassured your mother in the face of her fears, too.
> 
> But something tells me it probably did not go down that way . . .


Thats correct. Unreasonable. So it wasn't just in my beholden eye as you stated about the topic issue, sometimes it is, but not always. My Mom was actually fully unreasonable. And no, no one called her on it. When I went to counseling with someone versed in emotional abuse, my counselor said it was one of the worst cases of emotional abuse he had ever heard. So it is important to recognize when someone elses emotional issues don't belong on you and to not internalize it, maybe reassure if possible, but many times you have to let them wrestle with that on their own. Not doing so can emotionally cripple someone into learned helplessness. There isn't always a man around to save the day. And to be honest, my mother didn't need a man to work that out for her, she is quite intelligent, but she chose to stay broken. I on the other hand don't choose to repeat her mistakes. I take responsibility for my emotional weight and do my best not pass that on to my child. My goal is to break those cycles. It is not my H's job to fix all of that for me. Has he played a pivotal role? Tremendously so.. I wouldn't be where I am on this without his impact, BUT the VAST majority of homework was done by ME because I view it as my baby to work through. Only God and me can work on my insides to pave a better tomorrow. 

So, it is not always in the eye if the beholder, sometimes there is an abusive attitude present and it is wise to possess the ability to recognize it and deal with it in a way that breaks the pattern.


----------



## VirgenTecate

I have spent the last two days reading through this man's blog. 

I don't know how to phrase this without sounding like a know it all ******* but

It has nothing to do with betas, alphas, cheating, abuse...

But what happens when two people genuinely take vows but don't know what that means.

And they end up miserable and think they need to divorce.

A lot of the arguments about LD, men's and women's issues are really just the smokescreen that covers the true issue

We don't know how to take responsibility for ourselves and communicate to the other person in our marriage.

Some of us married complete *******s. 

But the majority of people get married with good intentions.

Please, *just give his blog a try*. It opened up my eyes to the solution to a lot of debates we have on TAM. It has also pushed my foot out the door on TAM because what I have been trying to hash out on these forums with others usually just goes back to the same endless argument (much like a married couple's endless argument  )

He addresses men but he says his advice generally applies to women and even links to a woman's blog who is trying to be the best wife for her husband.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

No one is saying she was abusive. Its being pointed out that in SOME situations it is unreasonableness or abuse your staring at and not a reasonable request that should be honored. And that it is wise to discern the difference because they are handled differently.

And I read his blog...


----------



## Evinrude58

lifeistooshort said:


> Not really, I'm considering what he wrote about himself. And I also like to consider what the unrepresented party might say, but in this case it's hard for me to imagine her having a vastly different story.
> 
> I'm sure she wasn't perfect, nobody is. But some of the stuff he admits to saying and doing is pretty sh!tty.
> 
> This guy is leaps and bounds ahead of my ex, my ex has no ability to self reflect. This guy has done a ton of it which will undoubtedly make him a better partner then he was.
> 
> It just seems like you're trying to convince yourself that he couldn't be that bad and his wife must've just been selfish, when you have no basis for that assumption. Could you be projecting based on your own situation?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



If she is griping about a cup when she is contemplating divorce, it says a lot about her to me. I think a woman who doesn't communicate in an effective way-- separating, throwing a fit, whatever it takes, to let their husband know how badly she is feeling--- shows a willingness to just throw in the towel far too easily and dump the person they swore to love. I didn't hear the guy say he was doing anything that was that horrible. The fact that he is thinking about what happened, what he contributed to her unhappiness, etc., shows that he was/is willing to see what it takes to be a better husband. The ex wife just didn't care. She had already made her mind up--- the straw that broke the camels back was stacked on a bunch of straw that could have been shaken off if the effort was made.
Just my opinion from what I read if the story......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VirgenTecate

Blossom Leigh said:


> No one is saying she was abusive. Its being pointed out that in SOME situations it is unreasonableness or abuse your staring at and not a reasonable request that should be honored. And that it is wise to discern the difference because they are handled differently.
> 
> And I read his blog...


I wasn't directing my post to you or about the woman you are talking about. I actually have not read any recent posts of yours. 

Just in general I think this guy has a lot to say and many times we wrap it around many other issues.


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> If she is griping about a cup when she is contemplating divorce, it says a lot about her to me. I think a woman who doesn't communicate in an effective way-- separating, throwing a fit, whatever it takes, to let their husband know how badly she is feeling--- shows a willingness to just throw in the towel far too easily and dump the person they swore to love. I didn't hear the guy say he was doing anything that was that horrible. The fact that he is thinking about what happened, what he contributed to her unhappiness, etc., shows that he was/is willing to see what it takes to be a better husband. The ex wife just didn't care. She had already made her mind up--- the straw that broke the camels back was stacked on a bunch of straw that could have been shaken off if the effort was made.
> Just my opinion from what I read if the story......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think if he had cared earlier, she would not have come to the decision she did.


----------



## Starstarfish

> If she is griping about a cup when she is contemplating divorce, it says a lot about her to me. I think a woman who doesn't communicate in an effective way-- separating, throwing a fit, whatever it takes, to let their husband know how badly she is feeling--- shows a willingness to just throw in the towel far too easily and dump the person they swore to love. I didn't hear the guy say he was doing anything that was that horrible


You need to read the rest of his blog to get the context.

I'm thinking the fact he left her alone in the hospital scared and alone after a C-section so he could go home and humble-brag about the baby on Facebook probably had a lot to do with how she felt about him.

The glass situation to her was likely just one more instance in which he showed he didn't care about her. But really the reason she felt that way had a lot stronger basis. That at her most scary and vulnerable moment, he left her alone. 

I'm not sure there's an "I'm sorry" that really effectively changes the psychological and emotional impact of that.


----------



## SadSamIAm

lifeistooshort said:


> Not really, I'm considering what he wrote about himself. And I also like to consider what the unrepresented party might say, but in this case it's hard for me to imagine her having a vastly different story.
> 
> I'm sure she wasn't perfect, nobody is. But some of the stuff he admits to saying and doing is pretty sh!tty.
> 
> This guy is leaps and bounds ahead of my ex, my ex has no ability to self reflect. This guy has done a ton of it which will undoubtedly make him a better partner then he was.
> 
> It just seems like you're trying to convince yourself that he couldn't be that bad and his wife must've just been selfish, when you have no basis for that assumption. Could you be projecting based on your own situation?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I am projecting based on my own situation. As is everyone. 

My assumption is that since she took him leaving a glass in the sink so personally, that she probably was just as 'touchy' about other little things. It wasn't about a glass. But since he used such an insignificant thing to write about, my assumption was that there were a pile of little insignificant hoops that he failed to jump through for her. 

I agree that he did many things wrong (not spend enough time with her) but based on what he said about her, she didn't sound like a fun person to be around.


----------



## jld

Starstarfish said:


> You need to read the rest of his blog to get the context.
> 
> I'm thinking the fact he left her alone in the hospital scared and alone after a C-section so he could go home and humble-brag about the baby on Facebook probably had a lot to do with how she felt about him.
> 
> The glass situation to her was likely just one more instance in which he showed he didn't care about her. But really the reason she felt that way had a lot stronger basis. That at her most scary and vulnerable moment, he left her alone.
> 
> I'm not sure there's an "I'm sorry" that really effectively changes the psychological and emotional impact of that.


It certainly showed his character. 

But we all have character flaws. We can apologize and work to improve. I think it was his defensiveness for so long that wore her down. 

I wonder what she thinks of the reflection he is doing.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Yes I am projecting based on my own situation. As is everyone.
> 
> My assumption is that since she took him leaving a glass in the sink so personally, that she probably was just as 'touchy' about other little things. It wasn't about a glass. But since he used such an insignificant thing to write about, my assumption was that there were a pile of little insignificant hoops that he failed to jump through for her.
> 
> I agree that he did many things wrong (not spend enough time with her) but based on what he said about her, she didn't sound like a fun person to be around.


Basically, you feel sympathetic to him. As do many other men, and some women, here.

Other women, and one man, for sure, feel sympathetic toward his wife. 

That seems to be where we are with it.


----------



## Starstarfish

> But we all have character flaws. We can apologize and work to improve.


We can apologize. But that's no guarantee or requirement that the other person "get over it." 

Cheating is a character flaw. Apologizing and working to improve doesn't indeed fix that situation for everyone, nor should it.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> It certainly showed his character.
> 
> But we all have character flaws. We can apologize and work to improve. I think it was his defensiveness for so long that wore her down.
> 
> I wonder what she thinks of the reflection he is doing.


I can answer that: He is a repulsive whimp that can't find a woman and keeps harping on the one he lost. I don't think that, but I'll bet she does. I'd put money on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Starstarfish said:


> We can apologize. But that's no guarantee or requirement that the other person "get over it."
> 
> Cheating is a character flaw. Apologizing and working to improve doesn't indeed fix that situation for everyone, nor should it.


Nope, no guarantees.

I am not sure about the *should* part. Especially when there are kids involved.

Ultimately you have to live with yourself. You know your own limits best.


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> I can answer that: He is a repulsive whimp that can't find a woman and keeps harping on the one he lost. I don't think that, but I'll bet she does. I'd put money on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It would be interesting to hear her view.

I think a woman has to be hurt pretty bad to leave. It has to be less painful to leave than to stay.

I wonder if she wonders why she tolerated his treatment for so long. I hope she has found love and nurturing.


----------



## VirgenTecate

jld said:


> Basically, you feel sympathetic to him. As do many other men, and some women, here.
> 
> Other women, and one man, for sure, feel sympathetic toward his wife.
> 
> That seems to be where we are with it.


I think if we stop sympathizing with one side or the other then it is more useful and I think that is what he is trying to do.

I can see myself in both his wife and in him.

I want to understand and stop the actions of the man who wrote this blog did so I can cherish and love my husband without assuming he thinks and acts like me. I can then respect his mind and life without thinking that because he sees it differently than me means he doesn't love me.

I want my husband to understand that I can love and cherish him without thinking or acting like him. He can then respect my mind and life without thinking that because I do not think and act like him means that I do not love him.

Then we can find common ground and work on solutions together knowing that our differences as men women, individual and individual does not rip us apart. Because we know we love each other and can respect our differences. We can talk through when we don't see eye to eye. We still do not need to see it the same and we may never will. But we will make strides to show that we understand their side and accommodate to show that _we understand the difference even if we do not agree with the difference._


----------



## NobodySpecial

Evinrude58 said:


> If she is griping about a cup when she is contemplating divorce, it says a lot about her to me. I think a woman who doesn't communicate in an effective way-- separating, throwing a fit, whatever it takes, to let their husband know how badly she is feeling--- shows a willingness to just throw in the towel far too easily and dump the person they swore to love. I didn't hear the guy say he was doing* anything that was that horrible*.


I think this is where people fall down. The notion that there is an objective "that horrible" or that failing to do anything "that horrible" is where the bar should be.




> The fact that he is thinking about what happened, what he contributed to her unhappiness, etc., shows that he *was*/_is_ willing to see what it takes to be a better husband.


The italics yes. The bold, not so much.




> The ex wife just didn't care. She had already made her mind up--- the straw that broke the camels back was stacked on a bunch of straw that could have been shaken off if the effort was made.
> Just my opinion from what I read if the story......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, one person learned from their experience anyway.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Evinrude58 said:


> If she is griping about a cup when she is contemplating divorce, it says a lot about her to me. I think a woman who doesn't communicate in an effective way-- separating, throwing a fit, whatever it takes, to let their husband know how badly she is feeling--- shows a willingness to just throw in the towel far too easily and dump the person they swore to love. I didn't hear the guy say he was doing anything that was that horrible. The fact that he is thinking about what happened, what he contributed to her unhappiness, etc., shows that he was/is willing to see what it takes to be a better husband. The ex wife just didn't care. She had already made her mind up--- the straw that broke the camels back was stacked on a bunch of straw that could have been shaken off if the effort was made.
> Just my opinion from what I read if the story......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get it, I really do. If she is griping about a cup and that's it then yes, that is stupid my standards. But first of all, even if she was it's not really the cup; you know that when you don't like someone they can't make toast right. So while the cup by itself is silly in the context of the entire relationship it might be like the toast.

And second, as I keep trying to point out, it's him that brings up the cup. If you asked her maybe the cup wouldn't come up....it could be his perception of it. 

So be might be making the cup a much bigger deal then it really is in her eyes. 

I think this is where we're having trouble understanding each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

VirgenTecate said:


> I think if we stop sympathizing with one side or the other then it is more useful and I think that is what he is trying to do.
> 
> I can see myself in both his wife and in him.
> 
> I want to understand and stop the actions of the man who wrote this blog did so I can cherish and love my husband without assuming he thinks and acts like me. I can then respect his mind and life without thinking that because he sees it differently than me means he doesn't love me.
> 
> I want my husband to understand that I can love and cherish him without thinking or acting like him. He can then respect my mind and life without thinking that because I do not think and act like him means that I do not love him.
> 
> Then we can find common ground and work on solutions together knowing that our differences as men women, individual and individual does not rip us apart. Because we know we love each other and can respect our differences. We can talk through when we don't see eye to eye. We still do not need to see it the same and we may never will. But we will make strides to show that we understand their side and accommodate to show that _we understand the difference even if we do not agree with the difference._


If both people are equally willing to work on the marriage, this might work.

I think the greater value of his writing may be for men whose wives no longer care about the marriage working. Not that it is not interesting reading, period.


----------



## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> I think this is where people fall down. The notion that there is an objective "that horrible" or that failing to do anything "that horrible" is where the bar should be.
> 
> 
> 
> The italics yes. The bold, not so much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, one person learned from their experience anyway.


Good to hear from you miss Special.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> you know that when you don't like someone they can't make toast right.


True.


----------



## VirgenTecate

NobodySpecial said:


> I think this is where people fall down. The notion that there is an objective "that horrible" or that failing to do anything "that horrible" is where the bar should be.


Perfect. That is what he is trying to get at. There is not objective that's horrible.

We may find the other person's that's horrible silly.

But we still strive to understand that that is their reality. The reality of the person we love and cherish.

We hope that they respect our "that's horrible" when they don't agree either.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ConanHub said:


> Good to hear from you miss Special.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks!


----------



## farsidejunky

VirgenTecate said:


> I think if we stop sympathizing with one side or the other then it is more useful and I think that is what he is trying to do.
> 
> I can see myself in both his wife and in him.
> 
> I want to understand and stop the actions of the man who wrote this blog did so I can cherish and love my husband without assuming he thinks and acts like me. I can then respect his mind and life without thinking that because he sees it differently than me means he doesn't love me.
> 
> I want my husband to understand that I can love and cherish him without thinking or acting like him. He can then respect my mind and life without thinking that because I do not think and act like him means that I do not love him.
> 
> Then we can find common ground and work on solutions together knowing that our differences as men women, individual and individual does not rip us apart. Because we know we love each other and can respect our differences. We can talk through when we don't see eye to eye. We still do not need to see it the same and we may never will. But we will make strides to show that we understand their side and accommodate to show that _we understand the difference even if we do not agree with the difference._


This would require both sides to stop deepening their trenches.

Neither side has shown a wilingness to do so.

Even when one side starts with "I can umderstand...", it is followed by a "but" of some form and a continuation of the argument disguised as empathy or something else. Disengenious.

Both sides are embracing the victim chair.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> If both people are equally willing to work on the marriage, this might work.
> 
> I think the greater value of his writing may be for men whose wives no longer care about the marriage working. Not that it is not interesting reading, period.


Funny, but this is exactly what I was speaking to in my last post.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> This would require both sides to stop deepening their trenches.
> 
> Neither side has shown a wiling Ness to do so.
> 
> Even when one side starts with "I can umderstand...", it b is followed by a "but" and a continuation of the argument disguised as empathy.
> 
> Both sides are embracing the victim chair.


It must be hard to be in a marriage where the two are not basically on the same side.


----------



## jld

Just saw your addition. Why is it disingenuous, far?


----------



## NobodySpecial

farsidejunky said:


> This would require both sides to stop deepening their trenches.
> 
> Neither side has shown a wilingness to do so.
> 
> Even when one side starts with "I can umderstand...", it is followed by a "but" of some form and a continuation of the argument disguised as empathy or something else. Disengenious.
> 
> Both sides are embracing the victim chair.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Once you get in this space, it is hard to get out of.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Just read his blogpost about the masters below. She decides that it is a nice day out and she insists he go to the playground with the family instead of watching The Masters. 

To me, this says she doesn't care at all about his needs. Reinforces my view of her. He mentions many other examples about how guys can be ****ty husbands. I agree with many of them. He doesn't say that he did those things though. 

Reminds me of the day I was watching the Grey Cup and my wife insisted that I put up the Christmas Lights during the game. 

Thoughts?




Watching The Masters

I didn’t know it at the time, but four years ago, a defining moment in my life happened during the Sunday final round of The Masters golf tournament—generally considered to be the most-popular golf tournament of the year by American golf fans.

Living in Ohio, that general time period around Easter and The Masters is when you can count on the weather to break and really give you some beautiful days.

My ex-wife absolutely loves being outside. She grew up in the country, and sitting inside on a beautiful day is not her idea of a good time.

So, inevitably, it was gorgeous outside during the final round of The Masters. Our son was not quite a year old. And my wife wanted us, as a family, to go enjoy the weather together.

Go hike in the nearby national park.

Go to the zoo.

Go to a metro park trail.

Sounds pretty reasonable, right?

I think so.

But on that particular Sunday, without the benefit of failed-marriage hindsight? It sounded perfectly unreasonable.

It went something like this:

Me: “Babe. I’d really just like to watch my favorite golf tournament. This only happens once a year.”

Wife: “I can’t believe you want to sit inside on a such a beautiful day. You don’t want to go do something nice as a family?”

Me: “I don’t want to sit inside on a beautiful day—I kind of wish it was raining—and of course I want to do fun things together, but again, this golf tournament happens just one weekend a year. And that happens to be today. I’d like to watch it. I’m sorry.”

This all hit me a few months ago during the 2013 Masters. It was on TV at my house. But nobody was home. She’d already left. My son was gone. I was there. I was awake. But I wasn’t home.

I’m tempted to look up who even won the damn golf tournament this year. Because I truly can’t remember. Maybe Justin Rose or Adam Scott. But honestly, who cares?

I chose The Masters over a perfect Sunday afternoon with my wife and son.

And guess what, Guy Who Thinks That Sounds Perfectly Acceptable?

You’re an *******. And a ****ty husband. Just like me.

I committed marriage’s worst crime, after all the obvious stuff like cheating, and abuse, and the like.

I left my wife alone in our marriage.

It looks a lot like that Masters Sunday four years ago.

It’s what it looks like when she stays home on a Friday night to take care of the kids and do chores and watch “Desperate Housewives” alone on the couch while you’re out with the boys.

It’s what it looks like when she invites you to bed during Monday Night Football, but you’re too busy monitoring your fantasy football team to join her.

It’s what it looks like when she asks you to join her for a family function at the in-laws, and you decline so you can watch a movie at home alone, or sit around playing video games, or playing golf, or playing poker.

It’s what it looks like when you go to a party and you spend all of your time drinking and laughing with your friends, and never once squeezing her hand, or whispering in her ear how gorgeous she looks, or making eye contact from across the room and mouthing the words “I love you.”

It’s what it looks like when you leave the hospital to get a good night’s sleep the day your son was born even though your wife is begging you to stay.

It’s what it looks like when you don’t acknowledge all of the many things she carries every day so that you don’t have to—managing schedules, and the household, and buying gifts for birthdays and weddings and graduations, and keeping the house clean, and a million other things I’m STILL too ****ing dense to recognize even though I’m still picking up the pieces in my now-empty home.

The hardest lesson I’ve ever learned is that you can have all of the good intentions in the world. You can be kind. And charming. And willing to sacrifice.

And it can STILL break.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I’ve heard that proverb my entire life and I never really knew what it meant until now.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Just saw your addition. Why is it disingenuous, far?


Because of how it is received.

Translation:

"I think both could learn from it, but men need to learn it more."

Both sides know this is what is happening. Even you, JLD. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Because of how it is received.
> 
> Translation:
> 
> "I think both could learn from it, but men need to learn it more."
> 
> Both sides know this is what is happening. Even you, JLD.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I still do not see how it is disingenuous.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> It would be interesting to hear her view.
> 
> I think a woman has to be hurt pretty bad to leave. It has to be less painful to leave than to stay.
> 
> I wonder if she wonders why she tolerated his treatment for so long. I hope she has found love and nurturing.


And I am wondering if she is in the middle of a second divorce!

I think she would be tough to please and would leave at the drop of a hat.


----------



## farsidejunky

Because it is pretending that the problem is equal in the first part of the statement, then saying men are more responsible for it in the second part.

The opinions are not consistent.

That means either the second statement is false, or the first one is.

Disingenuous. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

I think this man is truthful, and most of the men here are defensive about his message.

And some of the women want to defend the men. 

And some of the women, and perhaps some of the men, think both sides are at fault.

And I, and perhaps some others, are looking right at the man.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think this man is truthful, and most of the men here are defensive about his message.
> 
> And some of the women want to defend the men.
> 
> And some of the women, and perhaps some of the men, think both sides are at fault.
> 
> And I, and perhaps some others, are looking right at the man.


Keep digging the trench deeper rather than focusing on your own side of the street.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## lifeistooshort

SadSamIAm said:


> And I am wondering if she is in the middle of a second divorce!
> 
> I think she would be tough to please and would leave at the drop of a hat.


She's not. They met at 19.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> And I am wondering if she is in the middle of a second divorce!
> 
> I think she would be tough to please and would leave at the drop of a hat.


And so?

Maybe she just has high standards.

_"People who will accept only the best . . .are very likely to get it."_

I read that in college. Was amazed by the arrogance.

25 years later, I think that author was onto something.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Because it is pretending that the problem is equal in the first part of the statement, then saying men are more responsible for it in the second part.
> 
> The opinions are not consistent.
> 
> That means either the second statement is false, or the first one is.
> 
> Disingenuous.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Virgen Tecate thinks it is equal. I never said I did.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Keep digging the trench deeper rather than focusing on your own side of the street.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


How do you know I am not?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> How do you know I am not?


Poor communication on my part (see how I did that?).

What I should have said was encouraging women to see their role as well, not specifically you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Poor communication on my part (see how I did that?).
> 
> What I should have said was encouraging women to see their role as well, not specifically you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


The bottom line is that he regrets losing the marriage, and she does not. And he does not want it to happen again.

Her willingness to do *anything* in regard to saving the marriage was entirely optional. That is the reality, perhaps not the morality, of it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

farsidejunky said:


> Because it is pretending that the problem is equal in the first part of the statement, then saying men are more responsible for it in the second part.
> 
> The opinions are not consistent.
> 
> That means either the second statement is false, or the first one is.
> 
> Disingenuous.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I don't think anyone but jld is saying that.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> The bottom line is that he regrets losing the marriage, and she does not. And he does not want it to happen again.
> 
> Her willingness to do *anything* in regard to saving the marriage was entirely optional. That is the reality, perhaps not the morality, of it.


That's what I hate about a WalkawAy.... Once you make your marriage optional--- it is. Not saying anyone should stay I'm an abusive situation, just saying that one should be more committed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

> Just read his blogpost about the masters below. She decides that it is a nice day out and she insists he go to the playground with the family instead of watching The Masters.
> 
> To me, this says she doesn't care at all about his needs. Reinforces my view of her. He mentions many other examples about how guys can be ****ty husbands. I agree with many of them. He doesn't say that he did those things though.
> 
> Reminds me of the day I was watching the Grey Cup and my wife insisted that I put up the Christmas Lights during the game.
> 
> Thoughts?


Honestly, I think you want to see her as to blame, because you've written this head-cannon about her as this unreasonable harpy who just didn't care about him at all. 

She stated what she wanted, he stated what he wanted. They didn't agree. In the end arguably they both got what they wanted, just not with each other.

Why was his need more important than her need? He knew who she was, he clearly states it - she's an outdoors type of girl who likes to be outside. He's a sports fan. Expecting to become the type to sit around on nice days depending on what sports are on, probably not realistic. 

Again, it doesn't really seem like this couple was a good match. Trying to place blame just seems to ignore that fact.


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> That's what I hate about a WalkawAy.... Once you make your marriage optional--- it is. Not saying anyone should stay I'm an abusive situation, just saying that one should be more committed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But that is a different debate--the morality of "walkawayness," what constitutes a frivorce, etc.

In this man's writing I see a very straightforward, realistic assessment of what went wrong in his own actual situation, how he could have prevented it, and his desire to give other men an opportunity to learn from his mistakes. I applaud his efforts.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Evinrude58 said:


> That's what I hate about a WalkawAy.... Once you make your marriage optional--- it is. Not saying anyone should stay I'm an abusive situation, just saying that one should be more committed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This makes me nutty. The bar is so low that absence of abuse is the defining characteristic and barring that, no matter what is said, one has to "stay". The vast majority of "walk away" spouses tried to communicate for years and were ignored. This is the point the author is making. One party does not get to decide for the other how low the bar can go before they leave.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> This makes me nutty. The bar is so low that absence of abuse is the defining characteristic and barring that, no matter what is said, one has to "stay". The vast majority of "walk away" spouses tried to communicate for years and was ignored. This is the point the author is making. One party does not get to decide for the other how low the bar can go before they leave.


The reality is that nobody "has to stay." Not in a marriage, not in a friendship, not in a job. We all decide what makes it worthwhile to us. Any negotiation starts from there.


----------



## Evinrude58

I guess one of the many things I've learned about modern marriage vows is that they don't mean ****.

I'm in agreement that bad is bad, but as you said--- just where is the bar? If one isn't happy, they just pick up and go? Ok, that makes sense. It just doesn't make sense at all to get married. Why get the legal system and God involved?
_Posted via Mobile 

Check that--- from the woman's perspective, I definitely see why they need to get the legal system involved---- cash and carry.....Device_


----------



## jld

Found it:

_ "It's a funny thing about life; if you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." _

--Somerset Maugham, Novelist (1874-1965)


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> The reality is that nobody "has to stay." Not in a marriage, not in a friendship, not in a job. We all decide what makes it worthwhile to us. Any negotiation starts from there.


That's the point. Those were "walked away" on want to believe that they get to determine what is "bad enough". And then are bitter, arguing over objective merits of handling dishware. This guy is learning otherwise. Good on him.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Starstarfish said:


> Honestly, I think you want to see her as to blame, because you've written this head-cannon about her as this unreasonable harpy who just didn't care about him at all.
> 
> She stated what she wanted, he stated what he wanted. They didn't agree. In the end arguably they both got what they wanted, just not with each other.
> 
> Why was his need more important than her need? He knew who she was, he clearly states it - she's an outdoors type of girl who likes to be outside. He's a sports fan. Expecting to become the type to sit around on nice days depending on what sports are on, probably not realistic.
> 
> Again, it doesn't really seem like this couple was a good match. Trying to place blame just seems to ignore that fact.


I think he should go to the park with his family all the time. I think that he should do things that his wife enjoys.

I think that when The Masters is on, the wife should give him a kiss and tell him that she is taking the kids to the park and to enjoy the game.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Evinrude58 said:


> I guess one of the many things I've learned about modern marriage vows is that they don't mean ****.
> 
> I'm in agreement that bad is bad, but as you said--- just where is the bar? If one isn't happy, they just pick up and go? Ok, that makes sense. It just doesn't make sense at all to get married. Why get the legal system and God involved?
> _Posted via Mobile
> 
> Check that--- from the woman's perspective, I definitely see why they need to get the legal system involved---- cash and carry.....Device_


JLD, see? This is what some people take away. I signed up and said the words. Done.

Women don't need men for money anymore.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> That's the point. Those were "walked away" on want to believe that they get to determine what is "bad enough". And then are bitter, arguing over objective merits of handling dishware. This guy is learning otherwise. Good on him.


I agree.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> JLD, see? This is what some people take away. I signed up and said the words. Done.
> 
> Women don't need men for money anymore.


Some folks have not caught up yet, NS.


----------



## Evinrude58

NobodySpecial said:


> JLD, see? This is what some people take away. I signed up and said the words. Done.
> 
> Women don't need men for money anymore.


They usually do until after their first divorce.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

Evinrude58 said:


> They usually do until after their first divorce.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Another one for the bitter I don't get to buy a wife bin.


----------



## Evinrude58

I agree with the blogger that he should have put his wife's feelings ahead of his own. But there has to be balance. If one is constantly seeing to the other's needs, that's getting walked on. And some people here have the attitude that men are 99% guilty of this. The blogger seems to think so, too. I disagree. 

But, I think I was guilty of leaning toward the selfish side in my first marriage. I fully intend on fixing that. But not to the extent of getting walked on and pushed around by a person who is never satisfied. Ever met a person that is never satisfied? The last few years of my marriage I HAD listened and her own relatives admitted that I had made a lot of huge changes. I asked little of her, she asked of me constantly. 

Could it be that this guy may have been much more attentive to his wife's needs, and she would still view his efforts as lacking, and herself as pure as the driven snow? 
Who knows?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Evinrude58 said:


> That's what I hate about a WalkawAy.... Once you make your marriage optional--- it is. Not saying anyone should stay I'm an abusive situation, just saying that one should be more committed.


Who is the person who showed the lack of commitment? The one who spent years of a marriage refusing to spend time with their sposiue (aka refusing to acutally have a relationship with them)? or is it the persons who eventually decides that there is no relationship, their spouse does not care for them or respect them and leaves?


----------



## EleGirl

VirgenTecate said:


> I think if we stop sympathizing with one side or the other then it is more useful and I think that is what he is trying to do.
> 
> I can see myself in both his wife and in him.
> 
> I want to understand and stop the actions of the man who wrote this blog did so I can cherish and love my husband without assuming he thinks and acts like me. I can then respect his mind and life without thinking that because he sees it differently than me means he doesn't love me.
> 
> I want my husband to understand that I can love and cherish him without thinking or acting like him. He can then respect my mind and life without thinking that because I do not think and act like him means that I do not love him.
> 
> Then we can find common ground and work on solutions together knowing that our differences as men women, individual and individual does not rip us apart. Because we know we love each other and can respect our differences. We can talk through when we don't see eye to eye. We still do not need to see it the same and we may never will. But we will make strides to show that we understand their side and accommodate to show that _we understand the difference even if we do not agree with the difference._


This is a very good post. I'm curious, do you have conversations like this with your husband?


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> Who is the person who showed the lack of commitment? The one who spent years of a marriage refusing to spend time with their sposiue (aka refusing to acutally have a relationship with them)? or is it the persons who eventually decides that there is no relationship, their spouse does not care for them or respect them and leaves?


As just stated here without background...

Both


----------



## NobodySpecial

Evinrude58 said:


> That's what I hate about a WalkawAy.... Once you make your marriage optional--- it is.


ONe other thing. My marriage is optional. That is what gets us in the game instead of phoning it in. Each of us understands we have something to lose. Each other.


----------



## VirgenTecate

farsidejunky said:


> This would require both sides to stop deepening their trenches.
> 
> Neither side has shown a wilingness to do so.
> 
> Even when one side starts with "I can umderstand...", it is followed by a "but" of some form and a continuation of the argument disguised as empathy or something else. Disengenious.
> 
> Both sides are embracing the victim chair.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Being a victim is popular on the internet. 

I care more about the health of people's marriage than a forum. The advice is not for the internet, but for two people in a marriage.


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> Just read his blogpost about the masters below. She decides that it is a nice day out and she insists he go to the playground with the family instead of watching The Masters.
> 
> To me, this says she doesn't care at all about his needs. Reinforces my view of her. He mentions many other examples about how guys can be ****ty husbands. I agree with many of them. He doesn't say that he did those things though.
> 
> Reminds me of the day I was watching the Grey Cup and my wife insisted that I put up the Christmas Lights during the game.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watching The Masters
> 
> I didn’t know it at the time, but four years ago, a defining moment in my life happened during the Sunday final round of The Masters golf tournament—generally considered to be the most-popular golf tournament of the year by American golf fans.
> 
> Living in Ohio, that general time period around Easter and The Masters is when you can count on the weather to break and really give you some beautiful days.
> 
> My ex-wife absolutely loves being outside. She grew up in the country, and sitting inside on a beautiful day is not her idea of a good time.
> 
> So, inevitably, it was gorgeous outside during the final round of The Masters. Our son was not quite a year old. And my wife wanted us, as a family, to go enjoy the weather together.
> 
> Go hike in the nearby national park.
> 
> Go to the zoo.
> 
> Go to a metro park trail.
> 
> Sounds pretty reasonable, right?
> 
> I think so.
> 
> But on that particular Sunday, without the benefit of failed-marriage hindsight? It sounded perfectly unreasonable.
> 
> It went something like this:
> 
> Me: “Babe. I’d really just like to watch my favorite golf tournament. This only happens once a year.”
> 
> Wife: “I can’t believe you want to sit inside on a such a beautiful day. You don’t want to go do something nice as a family?”
> 
> Me: “I don’t want to sit inside on a beautiful day—I kind of wish it was raining—and of course I want to do fun things together, but again, this golf tournament happens just one weekend a year. And that happens to be today. I’d like to watch it. I’m sorry.”
> 
> This all hit me a few months ago during the 2013 Masters. It was on TV at my house. But nobody was home. She’d already left. My son was gone. I was there. I was awake. But I wasn’t home.
> 
> I’m tempted to look up who even won the damn golf tournament this year. Because I truly can’t remember. Maybe Justin Rose or Adam Scott. But honestly, who cares?
> 
> I chose The Masters over a perfect Sunday afternoon with my wife and son.
> 
> And guess what, Guy Who Thinks That Sounds Perfectly Acceptable?
> 
> You’re an *******. And a ****ty husband. Just like me.
> 
> I committed marriage’s worst crime, after all the obvious stuff like cheating, and abuse, and the like.
> 
> I left my wife alone in our marriage.
> 
> It looks a lot like that Masters Sunday four years ago.
> 
> It’s what it looks like when she stays home on a Friday night to take care of the kids and do chores and watch “Desperate Housewives” alone on the couch while you’re out with the boys.
> 
> It’s what it looks like when she invites you to bed during Monday Night Football, but you’re too busy monitoring your fantasy football team to join her.
> 
> It’s what it looks like when she asks you to join her for a family function at the in-laws, and you decline so you can watch a movie at home alone, or sit around playing video games, or playing golf, or playing poker.
> 
> It’s what it looks like when you go to a party and you spend all of your time drinking and laughing with your friends, and never once squeezing her hand, or whispering in her ear how gorgeous she looks, or making eye contact from across the room and mouthing the words “I love you.”
> 
> It’s what it looks like when you leave the hospital to get a good night’s sleep the day your son was born even though your wife is begging you to stay.
> 
> It’s what it looks like when you don’t acknowledge all of the many things she carries every day so that you don’t have to—managing schedules, and the household, and buying gifts for birthdays and weddings and graduations, and keeping the house clean, and a million other things I’m STILL too ****ing dense to recognize even though I’m still picking up the pieces in my now-empty home.
> 
> The hardest lesson I’ve ever learned is that you can have all of the good intentions in the world. You can be kind. And charming. And willing to sacrifice.
> 
> And it can STILL break.
> 
> The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> 
> I’ve heard that proverb my entire life and I never really knew what it meant until now.


Thoughts?

When I read the above writing by the author, I believe that all those things he listed are thing that he did/did-not do. Basically is sounds like he was not really interested in spending much time with her at all. He was doing his own thing mostly.

If he was normally an attentive husband who spent the 15 hours a week of quality time with her, then yea, if he wanted to watch the masters should not be a big deal. I can see her being disappointed because a day out as a family sounds like a wonderful idea.

But, the way I read his post, he basically did not spend all that much quality time with her. So under the circumstances, the Masters could have been recorded and watched later.

What I get out of what he wrote is that at that time in his life, he did not like spending time with his wife. He took her for granted and she was a nagging annoyance. It is only in retrospect that he realizes that he was wrong to not want to spend quality time with her.


----------



## Evinrude58

NobodySpecial said:


> ONe other thing. My marriage is optional. That is what gets us in the game instead of phoning it in. Each of us understands we have something to lose. Each other.


Hey, it's your life....
And I can see the truth in always treating your spouse like you are dating them (which I feel I did). 

But if I may ask, what did your newest marriage "vows" sound like?

Bill, I promise to always consider you optional, and if you fail to meet my expectations, your butt is history"...

I'm just not getting the vows thing if your marriage is optional.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Evinrude58 said:


> I agree with the blogger that he should have put his wife's feelings ahead of his own. But there has to be balance. If one is constantly seeing to the other's needs, that's getting walked on. And some people here have the attitude that men are 99% guilty of this. The blogger seems to think so, too. I disagree.
> 
> But, I think I was guilty of leaning toward the selfish side in my first marriage. I fully intend on fixing that. But not to the extent of getting walked on and pushed around by a person who is never satisfied. Ever met a person that is never satisfied? The last few years of my marriage I HAD listened and her own relatives admitted that I had made a lot of huge changes. I asked little of her, she asked of me constantly.
> 
> Could it be that this guy may have been much more attentive to his wife's needs, and she would still view his efforts as lacking, and herself as pure as the driven snow?
> Who knows?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That's true, everyone must find their balance. And that balance will be different for different people. 

But any speculation on what his wife was like is just that. ...
speculation. He's writing and she's not, and he's not made complaints about her. He's self reflecting. 

But based on his blog he seems to feel that less selfishness on his part would've been welcomed by her, and he's the one who knows her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

Evinrude58 said:


> Hey, it's your life....
> And I can see the truth in always treating your spouse like you are dating them (which I feel I did).
> 
> But if I may ask, what did your newest marriage "vows" sound like?
> 
> Bill, I promise to always consider you optional, and if you fail to meet my expectations, your butt is history"...
> 
> I'm just not getting the vows thing if your marriage is optional.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There were no "new vows". Neither of us want them. We don't want promises that we cannot fulfill. It is not possible to will yourself into loving someone forever. What we decided we want instead is always strive to be happy with each other. But on the day one of us does not WANT to be with the other, then the other lets that person go with a caring heart.

You are looking at this from the point of view of a taker. As if all anyone wants is what is in it for them. I don't look at either love or life that way.


----------



## VirgenTecate

EleGirl said:


> This is a very good post. I'm curious, do you have conversations like this with your husband?


Yes. We actually just had one recently based on this man's blog.

But we have had many discussions where we go back to an argument and identify the problem as a difference in viewpoint and reaffirm that we love each other.

I recently had one where I apologized to him for not understanding why a hobby was so important to him.

He apologized to me for not understanding that saying how attractive a girl is hurts me.

Neither one of us had to be right or wrong overall. We just had to apologize for not taking into consideration the other's viewpoint.

Once we do that, it makes us WANT to stop the behavior. 

I didn't force him to stop talking about attractive women. He understood how it affected me. He made the decision. We are able to do that because putting each other first is our priority, not being right or wrong. 

Many people on these forums would say my actions were wrong because I should make him spend more time with me. Many would say his actions are wrong because he is being made into a beta. 

That type of thinking doesn't make us stronger.


----------



## Evinrude58

NobodySpecial said:


> There were no "new vows". Neither of us want them. We don't want promises that we cannot fulfill. It is not possible to will yourself into loving someone forever. What we decided we want instead is always strive to be happy with each other. But on the day one of us does not WANT to be with the other, then the other lets that person go with a caring heart.
> 
> You are looking at this from the point of view of a taker. As if all anyone wants is what is in it for them. I don't look at either love or life that way.


Well, you are straightforward and clear about things. I can't argue with that. Maybe I am a "taker". I appreciate your observations and will think about that for a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

VirgenTecate said:


> Yes. We actually just had one recently based on this man's blog.
> 
> But we have had many discussions where we go back to an argument and identify the problem as a difference in viewpoint and reaffirm that we love each other.
> 
> I recently had one where I apologized to him for not understanding why a hobby was so important to him.
> 
> He apologized to me for not understanding that saying how attractive a girl is hurts me.
> 
> Neither one of us had to be right or wrong overall. We just had to apologize for not taking into consideration the other's viewpoint.
> 
> Once we do that, it makes us WANT to stop the behavior.
> 
> I didn't force him to stop talking about attractive women. He understood how it affected me. He made the decision. We are able to do that because putting each other first is our priority, not being right or wrong.
> 
> *Many people on these forums would say my actions were wrong because I should make him spend more time with me. Many would say his actions are wrong because he is being made into a beta.
> *
> That type of thinking doesn't make us stronger.


Not me this is what I have purposed as adult communication where both sides are respected and heard. This is how we handle things as well. I am guessing your relationship is rock solid cause of it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> When I read the above writing by the author, I believe that all those things he listed are thing that he did/did-not do. Basically is sounds like he was not really interested in spending much time with her at all. He was doing his own thing mostly.
> 
> If he was normally an attentive husband who spent the 15 hours a week of quality time with her, then yea, if he wanted to watch the masters should not be a big deal. I can see her being disappointed because a day out as a family sounds like a wonderful idea.
> 
> But, the way I read his post, he basically did not spend all that much quality time with her. So under the circumstances, the Masters could have been recorded and watched later.
> 
> What I get out of what he wrote is that at that time in his life, he did not like spending time with his wife. He took her for granted and she was a nagging annoyance. It is only in retrospect that he realizes that he was wrong to not want to spend quality time with her.


Still not very smart on her part. 

If she really wanted him to spend more time with the family, she would not have insisted on it at a time that has the least amount of success. It looks more like her trying to boss him. 

It is the same as if my wife is always rejecting me sexually and then I ask her to come to the bedroom during the final episode of The Housewives From Wherever.


----------



## Evinrude58

VirgenTecate said:


> Yes. We actually just had one recently based on this man's blog.
> 
> But we have had many discussions where we go back to an argument and identify the problem as a difference in viewpoint and reaffirm that we love each other.
> 
> I recently had one where I apologized to him for not understanding why a hobby was so important to him.
> 
> He apologized to me for not understanding that saying how attractive a girl is hurts me.
> 
> Neither one of us had to be right or wrong overall. We just had to apologize for not taking into consideration the other's viewpoint.
> 
> Once we do that, it makes us WANT to stop the behavior.
> 
> I didn't force him to stop talking about attractive women. He understood how it affected me. He made the decision. We are able to do that because putting each other first is our priority, not being right or wrong.
> 
> Many people on these forums would say my actions were wrong because I should make him spend more time with me. Many would say his actions are wrong because he is being made into a beta.
> 
> That type of thinking doesn't make us stronger.


Just wanted to say how much I liked this post and that I admire how you handle things with your husband, and he you. Whatever you look like, your attitude makes you a very attractive person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who is the person who showed the lack of commitment? The one who spent years of a marriage refusing to spend time with their sposiue (aka refusing to acutally have a relationship with them)? or is it the persons who eventually decides that there is no relationship, their spouse does not care for them or respect them and leaves?
> 
> 
> 
> As just stated here without background...
> 
> Both
Click to expand...

I am truly baffled by some of the posts here. So I’d like to use situations from my life to analyze through this lens.

So here goes.

The pattern of the marriage is that the husband spends his time playing computer games, watching sports events on TV and/or his computer. 

She works full time, does all the housework, yard work and child care. He does zero of these things. She talks to him asking him to start doing is part. He always agrees that he needs to be doing this. She’s made lists and asks him to pick what he will do. She’s asked him to just tell her what he will take responsibility for. Over a 10 years, he does maybe 1% of anything. 

His wife has talked to him many times about spending time together, sets up dates that he blows off, asked him to do spontaneous things like let’s to for a walk along the river, or let’s go to some home show, garden show, gun show, etc. When talking to him, he agrees that they should be spending time together. But he never follows through. Over a 10 year period, he might do something with her once a year, maybe.

And yes I asked him to give up watching a game to do something like watch a game to do something with me that was important to me. He watched games all the time. He spent little to time with me. So I felt it was reasonable to ask.

Also note that he never complained about anything. According to him, he was happy and had a wonderful life.

But according to a lot of posts on here, I am equally as responsible for this. I was not committed because I got fed up and divorced him. 

Please explain.


----------



## SadSamIAm

lifeistooshort said:


> That's true, everyone must find their balance. And that balance will be different for different people.
> 
> But any speculation on what his wife was like is just that. ...
> speculation. He's writing and she's not, and he's not made complaints about her. He's self reflecting.
> 
> But based on his blog he seems to feel that less selfishness on his part would've been welcomed by her, and he's the one who knows her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


His blog is meant to get people to think of their part of the problem. To speak about his wife's issues would take away from the point he is trying to make in his blog.

He did write this though:

"She is emotionally colder than I am. Depending on mood and environment, she is not always warm with strangers and isn’t afraid to use a biting tone with people who disappoint her. Because I’m wired the way I am, that behavior sometimes comes off mean and *****y, and I find it very unattractive.

When it’s directed toward me, I feel disrespected, unwanted, unloved, and like a failure. It also makes me angry because I’m predominantly nice and friendly and have little patience when the courtesy isn’t returned.

I have always believed I was capable of bigger and better things than a ho-hum life in suburbia and a cubicle job. Out of every person I know, my wife was the least likely to make me feel believed in or rooted for. The feedback was primarily constant disappointment.

That is a bad thing for a guy to feel if you want your relationship to work out. That does NOT justify the emotional abandonment my wife felt in our marriage. Nor would it justify someone cheating on their spouse. But I think it’s wise to be aware of WHY humans sometimes behave as they do."


----------



## VirgenTecate

Wolf1974 said:


> Not me this is what I have purposed as adult communication where both sides are respected and heard. This is how we handle things as well. I am guessing your relationship is rock solid cause of it.


When we did not implement this, our relationship was rocky. I wasn't sure if we were going to make it.

But we had one argument too many and we looked at each other and realized we did love each other but we didn't know what we were doing.

So we started from there. 

Now we have faced many more difficult challenges and we both feel safe and secure that we will make it. I cannot 100% guarantee the future but I can say that I feel 100% secure with him.
@Wolf1974,

You have always promoted adult conversation over politics. 

But at times you will see that on this forum others have different intentions than that. And I don't think that means they come with bad intentions, just the belief that there is a right and wrong and they know the answer. They genuinely believe that making everyone behave the right or wrong way is going to improve relationships.


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> Still not very smart on her part.
> 
> If she really wanted him to spend more time with the family, she would not have insisted on it at a time that has the least amount of success. It looks more like her trying to boss him.
> 
> It is the same as if my wife is always rejecting me sexually and then I ask her to come to the bedroom during the final episode of The Housewives From Wherever.


The incident where he watched the Master's program was just one example. If her asking him one time to give up a game, that does not make her a selfish, demanding person.

He listed many things to describe a pattern of him neglecting, refusing to spend time with her. That is a huge problem. But I guess for some spending time with a spouse is not important.


----------



## VirgenTecate

Evinrude58 said:


> Just wanted to say how much I liked this post and that I admire how you handle things with your husband, and he you. Whatever you look like, your attitude makes you a very attractive person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right now I look like a mess because I'm cleaning hahaha.

But thank you


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> I am truly baffled by some of the posts here. So I’d like to use some situations that from my life to analyze through this lens.
> 
> So here goes.
> 
> The pattern of the marriage is that the husband spends his time playing computer games, watching sports events on TV and/or his computer.
> 
> His wife has talked to him many times about spending time together, sets up dates that he blows off, asked him to do spontaneous things like let’s to for a walk along the river, or let’s go to some home show, garden show, gun show, etc. When talking to him, he agrees that they should be spending time together. But he never follows through. Over a 10 year period, he might do something with her once a year, maybe.
> 
> She works full time, does all the housework, yard work and child care. He does zero of these things. She talks to him asking him to start doing is part. He always agrees that he needs to be doing this. She’s made lists and asks him to pick what he will do. She’s asked him to just tell her what he will take responsibility for. Over a 10 years, he does maybe 1% of anything.
> 
> And yes I asked him to give up watching a game to do something like watch a game to do something with me that was important to me. He watched games all the time. He spent little to time with me. So I felt it was reasonable to ask.
> 
> Also note that he never complained about anything. According to him, he was happy and had a wonderful life.
> 
> But according to a lot of posts on here, I am equally as responsible for this. I was not committed because I got fed up and divorced him.
> 
> Please explain.


I don't see any resemblance to what you are saying to leaving a glass in a sink. Your complaints are all legitimate. You did way too much and he did next to nothing.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> I am truly baffled by some of the posts here. So I’d like to use situations from my life to analyze through this lens.
> 
> So here goes.
> 
> The pattern of the marriage is that the husband spends his time playing computer games, watching sports events on TV and/or his computer.
> 
> She works full time, does all the housework, yard work and child care. He does zero of these things. She talks to him asking him to start doing is part. He always agrees that he needs to be doing this. She’s made lists and asks him to pick what he will do. She’s asked him to just tell her what he will take responsibility for. Over a 10 years, he does maybe 1% of anything.
> 
> His wife has talked to him many times about spending time together, sets up dates that he blows off, asked him to do spontaneous things like let’s to for a walk along the river, or let’s go to some home show, garden show, gun show, etc. When talking to him, he agrees that they should be spending time together. But he never follows through. Over a 10 year period, he might do something with her once a year, maybe.
> 
> And yes I asked him to give up watching a game to do something like watch a game to do something with me that was important to me. He watched games all the time. He spent little to time with me. So I felt it was reasonable to ask.
> 
> Also note that he never complained about anything. According to him, he was happy and had a wonderful life.
> 
> But according to a lot of posts on here, I am equally as responsible for this. I was not committed because I got fed up and divorced him.
> 
> Please explain.


Is your ex remarried?

If so, does he do these things now?


----------



## MJJEAN

EleGirl said:


> I am truly baffled by some of the posts here. So I’d like to use situations from my life to analyze through this lens.
> 
> So here goes.
> 
> The pattern of the marriage is that the husband spends his time playing computer games, watching sports events on TV and/or his computer.
> 
> She works full time, does all the housework, yard work and child care. He does zero of these things. She talks to him asking him to start doing is part. He always agrees that he needs to be doing this. She’s made lists and asks him to pick what he will do. She’s asked him to just tell her what he will take responsibility for. Over a 10 years, he does maybe 1% of anything.
> 
> His wife has talked to him many times about spending time together, sets up dates that he blows off, asked him to do spontaneous things like let’s to for a walk along the river, or let’s go to some home show, garden show, gun show, etc. When talking to him, he agrees that they should be spending time together. But he never follows through. Over a 10 year period, he might do something with her once a year, maybe.
> 
> And yes I asked him to give up watching a game to do something like watch a game to do something with me that was important to me. He watched games all the time. He spent little to time with me. So I felt it was reasonable to ask.
> 
> Also note that he never complained about anything. According to him, he was happy and had a wonderful life.
> 
> But according to a lot of posts on here, I am equally as responsible for this. I was not committed because I got fed up and divorced him.
> 
> Please explain.


Who I would consider responsible for the break up of the marriage really depends. If the husband was like that before marriage and the wife knew he was like that, whether she ignored the red flags or simply thought he might change, then she got exactly what she signed up for and cannot place the blame on anyone but herself.


----------



## lifeistooshort

SadSamIAm said:


> His blog is meant to get people to think of their part of the problem. To speak about his wife's issues would take away from the point he is trying to make in his blog.
> 
> He did write this though:
> 
> "She is emotionally colder than I am. Depending on mood and environment, she is not always warm with strangers and isn’t afraid to use a biting tone with people who disappoint her. Because I’m wired the way I am, that behavior sometimes comes off mean and *****y, and I find it very unattractive.
> 
> When it’s directed toward me, I feel disrespected, unwanted, unloved, and like a failure. It also makes me angry because I’m predominantly nice and friendly and have little patience when the courtesy isn’t returned.
> 
> I have always believed I was capable of bigger and better things than a ho-hum life in suburbia and a cubicle job. Out of every person I know, my wife was the least likely to make me feel believed in or rooted for. The feedback was primarily constant disappointment.
> 
> That is a bad thing for a guy to feel if you want your relationship to work out. That does NOT justify the emotional abandonment my wife felt in our marriage. Nor would it justify someone cheating on their spouse. But I think it’s wise to be aware of WHY humans sometimes behave as they do."




That's true, I did read that (forgot about it) and it is not cool. But it does beg the question of whether he communicated that to her, particularly since she's being accused in absentia of not communicating. 

But clearly is was not bad enough for him to leave, or even want to leave. He never makes mention of thinking about it but it would cause him hardship. 

So unless he's left it out it wasn't bad enough to even get him to think about leaving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> The incident where he watched the Master's program was just one example. If her asking him one time to give up a game, that does not make her a selfish, demanding person.
> 
> He listed many things to describe a pattern of him neglecting, refusing to spend time with her. That is a huge problem. But I guess for some spending time with a spouse is not important.


That one example is very telling though in regards to her disrespect for him. 

There is a distinct difference between a game and the masters. Just like there is a distinct difference between spending time with your family on Sunday than spending time with your family on Christmas Day.


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't see any resemblance to what you are saying to leaving a glass in a sink. Your complaints are all legitimate. You did way too much and he did next to nothing.


I do see resemblances. 

One is that I had needs and expectations that he clearly thought were not valid. Doesn't he have that right?

The author of the blog stated that he told his wife to tell him what to do and he would do it. I take that to mean that he was not doing a fair shar of household chores. What is the percentage of household chores that make it ok for a wife to complain. 0%, 10%, 45%? In retrospect, he seems to think that he was not doing what he should have. But a lot of people on this thread seem to think that she was unreasonable to ask him to do things.

He also says that he spent very little time with her. What does that mean? How much lack of time NOT spent together would give her the right to ask him to give up watching a game in real time... when he could have just recorded it.

I don't see any balance in some posts that allow that at some point, expecting blind commitment makes sense.

When is it ok for a person to leave a marriage when there no infidelity, no physical abuse and no extreme emotional abuse?

Does the person who won't do a fair share of chores and who will not spend time with their spouse lack commitment? Or is it only the spouse who finally gives up and leaves lacks comment?


----------



## Evinrude58

EleGirl said:


> I am truly baffled by some of the posts here. So I’d like to use situations from my life to analyze through this lens.
> 
> So here goes.
> 
> The pattern of the marriage is that the husband spends his time playing computer games, watching sports events on TV and/or his computer.
> 
> She works full time, does all the housework, yard work and child care. He does zero of these things. She talks to him asking him to start doing is part. He always agrees that he needs to be doing this. She’s made lists and asks him to pick what he will do. She’s asked him to just tell her what he will take responsibility for. Over a 10 years, he does maybe 1% of anything.
> 
> His wife has talked to him many times about spending time together, sets up dates that he blows off, asked him to do spontaneous things like let’s to for a walk along the river, or let’s go to some home show, garden show, gun show, etc. When talking to him, he agrees that they should be spending time together. But he never follows through. Over a 10 year period, he might do something with her once a year, maybe.
> 
> And yes I asked him to give up watching a game to do something like watch a game to do something with me that was important to me. He watched games all the time. He spent little to time with me. So I felt it was reasonable to ask.
> 
> Also note that he never complained about anything. According to him, he was happy and had a wonderful life.
> 
> But according to a lot of posts on here, I am equally as responsible for this. I was not committed because I got fed up and divorced him.
> 
> Please explain.


He had no job, contributed nothing, and spent no time with you. What baffles me is why you feel guilt and why you tolerated that for ten years. 
Anyone would agree that a husband that has no job and contributes nothing deserves divorcing. Is someone saying otherwise?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

MJJEAN said:


> Who I would consider responsible for the break up of the marriage really depends. If the husband was like that before marriage and the wife knew he was like that, whether she ignored the red flags or simply thought he might change, then she got exactly what she signed up for and cannot place the blame on anyone but herself.


He was not like that before marriage.

He was a hard worker and we spent all our free time together, emailed/phoned often at work.


----------



## lifeistooshort

SadSamIAm said:


> Still not very smart on her part.
> 
> If she really wanted him to spend more time with the family, she would not have insisted on it at a time that has the least amount of success. It looks more like her trying to boss him.
> 
> It is the same as if my wife is always rejecting me sexually and then I ask her to come to the bedroom during the final episode of The Housewives From Wherever.


One could deduce, based on your story, that your wife isn't all that interested in you sexually considering what you have go through. 

For that I am sorry.


Maybe his wife felt like that, that in totality he wasn't that interested in family time. 

I think getting upset over a once a year golf tournament is ridiculous, my hb watches a ton of golf and I wouldn't ask him to skip the master's without a darn good reason. But I think if I had a good one hb would skip it himself, and because he generally does demonstrate that he wants to hang out with me, golf tournaments aren't a big deal. 

But once again this is from his viewpoint as he reflects. .... the golf tournament is likely not what drove her out the door.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Evinrude58 said:


> Hey, it's your life....
> And I can see the truth in always treating your spouse like you are dating them (which I feel I did).
> 
> But if I may ask, what did your newest marriage "vows" sound like?
> 
> Bill, I promise to always consider you optional, and if you fail to meet my expectations, your butt is history"...
> 
> I'm just not getting the vows thing if your marriage is optional.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All marriages are optional, it's just differing standards as to what drives one out.

Men on TAM are constantly told to leave sexless or infidelity afflicted marriages. 

Did that make their marriage optional? 

Of course, and it should be, because there are things people shouldn't be required to tolerate. 

The issue is where that bar is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

lifeistooshort said:


> One could deduce, based on your story, that your wife isn't all that interested in you sexually considering what you have go through.
> 
> For that I am sorry.
> 
> 
> Maybe his wife felt like that, that in totality he wasn't that interested in family time.
> 
> I think getting upset over a once a year golf tournament is ridiculous, my hb watches a ton of golf and I wouldn't ask him to skip the master's without a darn good reason. But I think if I had a good one hb would skip it himself, and because he generally does demonstrate that he wants to hang out with me, golf tournaments aren't a big deal.
> 
> But once again this is from his viewpoint as he reflects. .... the golf tournament is likely not what drove her out the door.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


if my wife asked me to miss the masters for a good reason I would as well.

I am thinking that she was already headed out the door when she asked him to miss the masters to go to the park.


----------



## EleGirl

Evinrude58 said:


> He had no job, contributed nothing, and spent no time with you. What baffles me is why you feel guilt and why you tolerated that for ten years.


I feel no guilt. I’m trying to understand the points of view that others are expressing here. I’m trying to figure out when a person can let go of the commitment when there is no abuse or infidelity. (according to some)

I stayed married to him for 10 years because I was not going to throw my step kids out on the street. Their mother had already abandoned them. For all intents, their father had as well. Their lives had been horribly messed up by this already. I was not going to add to that trauma for innocent children.

While we were married, I did continue to try to get it to work on the marriage as I think that is important. But I divorced him once his kids were out of high school and on their own.



Evinrude58 said:


> Anyone would agree that a husband that has no job and contributes nothing deserves divorcing. Is someone saying otherwise?


There have been many threads on TAM by women in similar situations. And there are posters who beat up on them pretty hard for wanting to divorce a man who was doing what mine did. So apparently some do not think this is something that a woman should divorce a man over.

I left out not having a job because I would have divorced him, based on the refusal to participate in the household and child care and refusal to spend time with me even if he had a job. That’s why I asked about those things and commitment.


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Is your ex remarried?
> 
> If so, does he do these things now?


He was married before. From all I've been told by his children and his ex, he spent tons of time with the children, coach their sports, their bowling, etc. He did tons of housework and worked full time.

2 years after we married he lost his job due to a post 9/11 turn down in business that lead to a mass layoff. From there he went down hill. but the refusal to spend time and help with chores and children started as soon as we married.

No he has not remarried.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> I do see resemblances.
> 
> One is that I had needs and expectations that he clearly thought were not valid. Doesn't he have that right?
> 
> The author of the blog stated that he told his wife to tell him what to do and he would do it. I take that to mean that he was not doing a fair shar of household chores. What is the percentage of household chores that make it ok for a wife to complain. 0%, 10%, 45%? In retrospect, he seems to think that he was not doing what he should have. But a lot of people on this thread seem to think that she was unreasonable to ask him to do things.
> 
> He also says that he spent very little time with her. What does that mean? How much lack of time NOT spent together would give her the right to ask him to give up watching a game in real time... when he could have just recorded it.
> 
> I don't see any balance in some posts that allow that at some point, expecting blind commitment makes sense.
> 
> When is it ok for a person to leave a marriage when there no infidelity, no physical abuse and no extreme emotional abuse?
> 
> Does the person who won't do a fair share of chores and who will not spend time with their spouse lack commitment? Or is it only the spouse who finally gives up and leaves lacks comment?


It is all a matter of scale. 

I have read some of his blog. I need to read more. He obviously wasn't the perfect husband but he doesn't sound that bad. He brings up examples of bad behaviour but often says, "when the husband does X,y,z". He doesn't say that he did those things. 

I also wonder why you question your decision to leave. You obviously feel guilty about it. Many people here have told you that you were totally justified in leaving. Has anyone told you that you weren't justified?


----------



## Wolf1974

VirgenTecate said:


> When we did not implement this, our relationship was rocky. I wasn't sure if we were going to make it.
> 
> But we had one argument too many and we looked at each other and realized we did love each other but we didn't know what we were doing.
> 
> So we started from there.
> 
> Now we have faced many more difficult challenges and we both feel safe and secure that we will make it. I cannot 100% guarantee the future but I can say that I feel 100% secure with him.
> 
> @Wolf1974,
> 
> You have always promoted adult conversation over politics.
> 
> But at times you will see that on this forum others have different intentions than that. And I don't think that means they come with bad intentions, just the belief that there is a right and wrong and they know the answer. They genuinely believe that making everyone behave the right or wrong way is going to improve relationships.


Ohh I'm aware of the talkers over listeners here lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> I am truly baffled by some of the posts here. So I’d like to use situations from my life to analyze through this lens.
> 
> So here goes.
> 
> The pattern of the marriage is that the husband spends his time playing computer games, watching sports events on TV and/or his computer.
> 
> She works full time, does all the housework, yard work and child care. He does zero of these things. She talks to him asking him to start doing is part. He always agrees that he needs to be doing this. She’s made lists and asks him to pick what he will do. She’s asked him to just tell her what he will take responsibility for. Over a 10 years, he does maybe 1% of anything.
> 
> His wife has talked to him many times about spending time together, sets up dates that he blows off, asked him to do spontaneous things like let’s to for a walk along the river, or let’s go to some home show, garden show, gun show, etc. When talking to him, he agrees that they should be spending time together. But he never follows through. Over a 10 year period, he might do something with her once a year, maybe.
> 
> And yes I asked him to give up watching a game to do something like watch a game to do something with me that was important to me. He watched games all the time. He spent little to time with me. So I felt it was reasonable to ask.
> 
> Also note that he never complained about anything. According to him, he was happy and had a wonderful life.
> 
> But according to a lot of posts on here, I am equally as responsible for this. I was not committed because I got fed up and divorced him.
> 
> Please explain.


Ahh ok so this about you then. Ok well I will ask you the same question I asked of open window. Did you know he was like this before you married him and just married a bad guy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> It is all a matter of scale.
> 
> I have read some of his blog. I need to read more. He obviously wasn't the perfect husband but he doesn't sound that bad. He brings up examples of bad behaviour but often says, "when the husband does X,y,z". He doesn't say that he did those things.
> 
> I also wonder why you question your decision to leave. You obviously feel guilty about it. Many people here have told you that you were totally justified in leaving. Has anyone told you that you weren't justified?


I don't feel guilty, why would I? I do feel hurt.

I have wondered about what people think about situations like this since I have seen quite a few threads on TAM written by women going through the same thing. Sometimes the guy has a job but does not participate in the household, childcare or spend time with his wife. Sometimes he also does not have a job. And there are almost always posters who 

They get a lot of responses bashing them for wanting to leave a marriage with the same dynamics.

Then there have been posts on this thread that make me wonder exactly how bad things have to be before some people would agree that leaving is ok.


----------



## farsidejunky

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think anyone but jld is saying that.


Both sides are doing it. I will make a point to call it out when I see it so as not to be singling out JLD.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> Ahh ok so this about you then. Ok well I will ask you the same question I asked of open window. Did you know he was like this before you married him and just married a bad guy?


I answered this in two other posts above.

He was married before he married me. He had a job, was a good father, spent time with his wife, and did a lot around the house.

When we dated, he did the same with me.

He had a very good job when we married. But did went into the rest of the negative things from day one of the marriage.

I don't know why except that he must not have really cared. Though he says to this day that he is madly in love with me. :scratchhead:

Yes he visits me all the time, calls me, etc. and always says this.

His kids are so pissed at him over it that they hardly speak to him. But they are in constant contact with me.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> He was married before. From all I've been told by his children and his ex, he spent tons of time with the children, coach their sports, their bowling, etc. He did tons of housework and worked full time.
> 
> 2 years after we married he lost his job due to a post 9/11 turn down in business that lead to a mass layoff. From there he went down hill. but the refusal to spend time and help with chores and children started as soon as we married.
> 
> No he has not remarried.


The reason I ask is it highlights a certain area that could hav affected this guys responsiveness. In my previous marriage, I would ask my ex to go on vacation to which he would always refuse, but his wife after me kept him on the road. So somewhere I was not as effective as she was in getting him to respond. Its why some here including me are saying that at least this part is an issue with her. *Effective* communication was missing, not just communication, but the kind that causes a change. I was WAY too soft on my EX. The woman behind me was WAY harder on him and it got him out the door. She was way more confident than me at the time. Now the flip side is they only last three years before divorcing because she was a serious loose canon, but it allowed me to see that I could refine my communication until I'm effective instead of just communicating.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> I don't feel guilty, why would I? I do feel hurt.
> 
> I have wondered about what people think about situations like this since I have seen quite a few threads on TAM written by women going through the same thing. Sometimes the guy has a job but does not participate in the household, childcare or spend time with his wife. Sometimes he also does not have a job. And there are almost always posters who
> 
> They get a lot of responses bashing them for wanting to leave a marriage with the same dynamics.
> 
> Then there have been posts on this thread that make me wonder exactly how bad things have to be before some people would agree that leaving is ok.


I hear you about when it is ok to leave.

My wife is a good mother. A great housekeeper. She makes sure everyone thinks she is perfect. She has never cheated. She works out all the time and is beautiful. 

People would think I am the worst person to leave. Would think I am going through a mid life crisis.

But when I left for a few days my daughter told me she was proud of me!


----------



## farsidejunky

Evinrude58 said:


> Check that--- from the woman's perspective, I definitely see why they need to get the legal system involved---- cash and carry.....Device


Does that amazing woman you are dating also fall in to this category, or is it perhaps rhetoric?



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> The reason I ask is it highlights a certain area that could hav affected this guys responsiveness. In my previous marriage, I would ask my ex to go on vacation to which he would always refuse, but his wife after me kept him on the road. So somewhere I was not as effective as she was in getting him to respond. Its why some here including me are saying that at least this part is an issue with her. *Effective* communication was missing, not just communication, but the kind that causes a change. I was WAY too soft on my EX. The woman behind me was WAY harder on him and it got him out the door. She was way more confident than me at the time. Now the flip side is they only last three years before divorcing because she was a serious loose canon, but it allowed me to see that I could refine my communication until I'm effective instead of just communicating.


I see what you are saying.

It might be that it is not so much that she is a better communicator than you or that she is harder on him. It might be that you taught him a hard lesson.. that he will lose his wife if he does not shape up.

I communicate very clearly. I do not hint or expect someone to read my mind. I ask for his side, for input , or exchange. At some point he has a responsibility to put in the effort to hear what is being said and take it seriously. The respopnslibty in communication is not one sided.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> He was married before. From all I've been told by his children and his ex, he spent tons of time with the children, coach their sports, their bowling, etc. He did tons of housework and worked full time.
> 
> 2 years after we married he lost his job due to a post 9/11 turn down in business that lead to a mass layoff. From there he went down hill. but the refusal to spend time and help with chores and children started as soon as we married.
> 
> No he has not remarried.


Strange! Did he ever get checked for depression? After losing his job.


----------



## farsidejunky

Evinrude58 said:


> Hey, it's your life....
> And I can see the truth in always treating your spouse like you are dating them (which I feel I did).
> 
> But if I may ask, what did your newest marriage "vows" sound like?
> 
> Bill, I promise to always consider you optional, and if you fail to meet my expectations, your butt is history"...
> 
> I'm just not getting the vows thing if your marriage is optional.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Conversely, vows are not an entitlement to neglect, either. Not suggesting you did, but the problem becomes something akin to:

"After 'I do', he/she never wants to give me any effort."

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> Strange! Did he ever get checked for depression? After losing his job.


Yes, I finally drug his behind to a psychiatrist. He was diagnosed with depression and OCD... .the developed OCD with the computer gaming, porn, etc.

After our divorce, I helped him start a small business. He now earns enough to support himself. Not much but enough.

ETA: After he lost his job and I could tell that he was not really job hunting, I started helping him job hunt. He got interviews but blew them all. Then I put out the money for him to start his own business in web development/design (his field). But he just spent a lot of money and never really got any clients.

Eventually he just stopped trying.


----------



## farsidejunky

Evinrude58 said:


> Well, you are straightforward and clear about things. I can't argue with that. Maybe I am a "taker". I appreciate your observations and will think about that for a while.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for willing to be humbly introspective, Evinrude.

This is exactly what I am asking folks to try to do.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> I see what you are saying.
> 
> It might be that it is not so much that she is a better communicator than you or that she is harder on him. It might be that you taught him a hard lesson.. that he will lose his wife if he does not shape up.
> 
> I communicate very clearly. I do not hint or expect someone to read my mind. I ask for his side, for input , or exchange. At some point he has a responsibility to put in the effort to hear what is being said and take it seriously. The respopnslibty in communication is not one sided.


Yea, its a possibility. Which means had I gone for separation it might gave rattled him enough, but I wasn't emotionally strong enough at the time. So to say I tried everything would be false. She could have done the same. I did try separation the in my 2nd marriage and it,with a blend of other things set us on the right course with my current H. When you know better you do better as the saying goes.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> Yes, I finally drug his behind to a psychiatrist. He was diagnosed with depression and OCD... .the developed OCD with the computer gaming, porn, etc.
> 
> After our divorce, I helped him start a small business. He now earns enough to support himself. Not much but enough.
> 
> ETA: After he lost his job and I could tell that he was not really job hunting, I started helping him job hunt. He got interviews but blew them all. Then I put out the money for him to start his own business in web development/design (his field). But he just spent a lot of money and never really got any clients.
> 
> Eventually he just stopped trying.


Sounds like he is still depressed. Was he prescribed anything for it?

Very good of you to continue to help him after the divorce.


----------



## anonmd

EleGirl said:


> I don't feel guilty, why would I? I do feel hurt.
> 
> I have wondered about what people think about situations like this since I have seen quite a few threads on TAM written by women going through the same thing. Sometimes the guy has a job but does not participate in the household, childcare or spend time with his wife. Sometimes he also does not have a job. And there are almost always posters who
> 
> They get a lot of responses bashing them for wanting to leave a marriage with the same dynamics.
> 
> Then there have been posts on this thread that make me wonder exactly how bad things have to be before some people would agree that leaving is ok.


So, there are threads like that breadwinner appreciation one which start out looking promising but quickly degenerate into extremists talking past each other - I can't get too involved in those.

Then there is what you are saying here, dude doesn't work, doesn't help out at all and doesn't have sex with his wife. This just does not compute to me. I got no explanation, you seem normal and it wouldn't be fair to say you must have done something so I have nothing to add. See what I did there, I left open the possibility he just changed into a jerk for no apparent reason. But that won't support a 50 page thread:smile2:


----------



## MJJEAN

EleGirl said:


> I feel no guilt. I’m trying to understand the points of view that others are expressing here. I’m trying to figure out when a person can let go of the commitment when there is no abuse or infidelity. (according to some)
> 
> I left out not having a job because I would have divorced him, based on the refusal to participate in the household and child care and refusal to spend time with me even if he had a job. That’s why I asked about those things and commitment.


I think most would agree it's ok to leave when the marital contract has been broken by one or both spouses. 

Adultery, Abuse, and Addiction, the famous 3 A's, are breaches of the marital contract and pretty much universally accepted reasons for leaving.

The grey area seems to be the other marital contract obligations like companionship and sex. Some say those being withheld are good reason to leave and others disagree.

Personally, I think withholding sex and companionship is breaking the marital contract just as much as the 3 A's and justifies leaving.


----------



## EleGirl

MJJEAN said:


> I think most would agree it's ok to leave when the marital contract has been broken by one or both spouses.
> 
> Adultery, Abuse, and Addiction, the famous 3 A's, are breaches of the marital contract and pretty much universally accepted reasons for leaving.
> 
> The grey area seems to be the other marital contract obligations like companionship and sex. Some say those being withheld are good reason to leave and others disagree.
> 
> Personally, I think withholding sex and companionship is breaking the marital contract just as much as the 3 A's and justifies leaving.


You listed those that you agree with as valid reasons to leave.

I also think that divorce if justified when one spouse basically dumps all, or the major part, of the respopnslibty for the household, child care, personal things like finances, etc. on the other when they both work or when it is the bread winner who has it all dumped on them. This shows such a level of selfishness/entitlement and lack of care/respect for their spouse that I do thing that the spouse is justified.


----------



## EleGirl

anonmd said:


> So, there are threads like that breadwinner appreciation one which start out looking promising but quickly degenerate into extremists talking past each other - I can't get too involved in those.
> 
> Then there is what you are saying here, dude doesn't work, doesn't help out at all and doesn't have sex with his wife. This just does not compute to me. I got no explanation, you seem normal and it wouldn't be fair to say you must have done something so I have nothing to add. See what I did there, I left open the possibility he just changed into a jerk for no apparent reason. But that won't support a 50 page thread:smile2:


I'm was not talking about threads like the breadwinner thead.


I'm talking about ones in which some woman who is posting her, exasperated and ready to walk due to this. She might get a few pages of response, not 50. And a good number of them are posters attacking her for being a b!tch because she is consider leaving her husband just because he spends no time with her, does not help with anything and does not work.

{One of these days when I have nothing to do, I'm going to go through TAM and catalogue all the threads so I can find ones I want to refer to > }


----------



## Evinrude58

SadSamIAm said:


> Sounds like he is still depressed. Was he prescribed anything for it?
> 
> Very good of you to continue to help him after the divorce.


I was thinking the same thing--- this guy was totally devastated by the loss of his career and he's never gotten over it. Not elegirl's fault, but it's obvious that such a severe change in personality was a health issue. 
That's a sad story for all involved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Evinrude58 said:


> I was thinking the same thing--- this guy was totally devastated by the loss of his career and he's never gotten over it. Not elegirl's fault, but it's obvious that such a severe change in personality was a health issue.
> 
> That's a sad story for all involved.


I do agree that he was completely devastated from losing his job and for some reason could not pick up and move on, find another job. 

But that is not the reason for him not helping with household things, taking care of his children or wanting to spend time together.

Why do I say that? He was fully employed in a very good job when we married. He lost his job 2 years after we married.

But for those two years he: refused to help with household things, taking care of his children or spend time together. This started from the day we married.


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> Sounds like he is still depressed. Was he prescribed anything for it?
> 
> Very good of you to continue to help him after the divorce.


After I took him to see a physiatrist he was on medications for a year or two. But all they did was to make it so that he could concentrate even better on his computer games. He made no effort to change. Eventually I got him on his own health insurance after the divorce and he would not go to see the psychiatrist again.

I think that he is truly happy with his life and where he is at. I'm not sure he is depressed anymore.


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> He was married before. From all I've been told by his children and his ex, he spent tons of time with the children, coach their sports, their bowling, etc. He did tons of housework and worked full time.
> 
> 2 years after we married he lost his job due to a post 9/11 turn down in business that lead to a mass layoff. From there he went down hill. but the refusal to spend time and help with chores and children started as soon as we married.
> 
> No he has not remarried.


Why did his first marriage end? 

Thinking now maybe he was heartbroken by his first wife and has never recovered. 

Really strange. I was very involved in my kids sports. Managed teams and coached a bit. Never missed games and enjoyed watching them practice. I can't see anything happening that would change that.


----------



## MBTTTR

marduk said:


> If you feel alone because of a glass next to a sink, news flash -- you're alone of your own volition.
> 
> There's a great big world out there filled with grown ups with grown up issues and grown up problems.
> 
> Perhaps one day this guy's wife will join the rest of us in it.
> 
> But I wouldn't hold my breath.


I'm trying to just patiently read through this thread, but you're killing me just a little bit too much to go on.

Hi. I'm Matt. I'm the author of the "dishes" post that had almost NOTHING to do with dishes despite the tricky headline to the contrary. 

Sorry for the rope-a-dope. When I wrote it in five seconds and hurriedly hit Publish like I do twice a week during work lunch breaks, I didn't know anyone who wasn't my regular (and not very big) audience would read it.

The post isn't about "dishes." 

The post is about how men seem to have a tendency to think about disagreement with their partners this way: "She is upset about something petty again, focusing on this thing that doesn't matter and demonstrating zero gratitude for all of the things I do for her. She is being irrational. Since she's irrational, she's wrong. Since the thing she's upset about doesn't matter, I'm not going to care about it either."

After years of that, your wife stops wanting to have sex with you, starts wanting to have sex with someone else, might go do it, and will likely file for divorce regardless. 

That is the cold, hard, truth. 

The post wasn't about me, personally, or about my wife, per se. I just like to tell first-person stories to illustrate ideas I think about. 

I didn't think a sane adult could really believe that a wife would divorce a husband over a glass by the sink. But strange things happen, I guess.

So, here's the whole thing--a major secret to helping our spouses maintain emotional health, and feel secure in their partnerships with us because we are demonstrating, to them, trustworthiness:

It might be a glass by the sink, it might be where you throw your shoes, or it might be the way she feels when you're out together in social situations, or something else.

But there is something that matters to your partner, that DOESN'T matter to you. And because it doesn't matter to you, you don't take it seriously, and the act of doing so makes your wife feel disrespected. Because you are the kind of man who does this, you likely do it about MANY "little" things in your relationship. All these things that makes her crazy and overly emotional, and you a rational male. 

And because you think she's irrational, you tell her she's wrong. You do it over and over and over again. 

Moving forward, when you leave the glass by the sink, or your shoes thrown wherever, or crack on her in front of your friends even though you're "just joking," THAT makes her feel pain.

It's not Leave Glass By Sink = Hurt Feelings because dirty dishes hurt feelings.

It's Leave Glass By Sink = Hurt Feelings because I've told him a bunch of times this hurts me and he's still doing it which means he's hurting me on purpose which means he doesn't love me which means I don't feel safe and can't trust him and have to leave.

I wish that wasn't how it worked. If we all felt the same about things, relationships would be easier and less complicated.

Your lack of respect for her feelings is what hurts her and why she wants to leave. NOT the silly "little thing" you're arguing about. 

The lesson in all of this is super-simple: Care about the little things she cares about BECAUSE she cares about it. 

You don't have to agree that leaving a glass by the sink is bad. But you DO have to agree that repeatedly hurting your wife is bad. 

Just because you don't think it SHOULD hurt, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. It HURTS. Like if she told you she fantasizes about your friend Craig because she heard from one of his former girlfriends that he's packing a huge one and their entire relationship was one long orgasm. 

Maybe that would hurt your pride and ego. Maybe when you saw your wife smiling at Craig at future parties, that would HURT you, even though she didn't think it was worth feeling hurt over. 

A glass doesn't affect you. Cool. That doesn't mean it doesn't affect her. 

The apples-to-apples comparison is not to say, if she doesn't respect your desire to drink beer and watch Thursday Night Football, then she doesn't love you. 

The apples-to-apples comparison is to compare a thing that hurts one spouse with a thing that hurts the other.


----------



## VirgenTecate

Matt,

It is a great honor to have you respond to your article here on TAM.

I love your honesty and the words honestly are not coming to me about how I feel.

I hope that I represented your ideas truthfully here.

If it is not you Matt, then I apologize


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Oh boy.... This is going to get interesting. 

First question Matt: Why did your wife leave you?

Second question Matt: You mention "affair" in your post to Marduk. Did your wife leave you for someone else?

Third question Matt: Is the whole persona and stories made up and you are writing your opinions as first person?


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> I answered this in two other posts above.
> 
> He was married before he married me. He had a job, was a good father, spent time with his wife, and did a lot around the house.
> 
> When we dated, he did the same with me.
> 
> He had a very good job when we married. But did went into the rest of the negative things from day one of the marriage.
> 
> I don't know why except that he must not have really cared. Though he says to this day that he is madly in love with me. :scratchhead:
> 
> Yes he visits me all the time, calls me, etc. and always says this.
> 
> His kids are so pissed at him over it that they hardly speak to him. But they are in constant contact with me.


I was answering your question not looking at the other answers you were giving to other posters.

So he was a good and loving man and checked out of his relationship with you and you have no idea why?? 

Not sure how we could ever come up with that answer if he and you don't know.


----------



## Cosmos

MBTTTR said:


> So, here's the whole thing--a major secret to helping our spouses maintain emotional health, and feel secure in their partnerships with us because we are demonstrating, to them, trustworthiness:
> 
> It might be a glass by the sink, it might be where you throw your shoes, or it might be the way she feels when you're out together in social situations, or something else.
> 
> But there is something that matters to your partner, that DOESN'T matter to you. And because it doesn't matter to you, you don't take it seriously, and the act of doing so makes your wife feel disrespected. Because you are the kind of man who does this, you likely do it about MANY "little" things in your relationship. All these things that makes her crazy and overly emotional, and you a rational male.
> 
> And because you think she's irrational, you tell her she's wrong. You do it over and over and over again.


You have excellent insight into how small things can become like a dripping tap in a marriage - eroding trust and emotional connectedness.

Thank you for taking the time to post here.


----------



## MBTTTR

Blossom Leigh said:


> Oh boy.... This is going to get interesting.
> 
> First question Matt: Why did your wife leave you?
> 
> Second question Matt: You mention "affair" in your post to Marduk. Did your wife leave you for someone else?
> 
> Third question Matt: Is the whole persona and stories made up and you are writing your opinions as first person?


1. "Why did your wife leave you?"

I have a very good relationship with my ex-wife. The final 18 months of our marriage was miserable and we slept in separate rooms. The first year post-divorce was miserable and we had some words. 

Today, we get along very well. Just a few hours ago, she came over to bring a couple toys for our son, and we sat in the kitchen and talked together for an hour about something school-related for our second-grader.

She is a kind, smart, talented, educated, successful professional. And she's a VERY good mother. 

In the context of divorce (which I hate more than most things), I am very blessed that she is who I have to work with RE: our son, who has another 11 years or so before "legal" adulthood.

She left because of the metaphorical dishes. 

That's why I write this stuff. MOST divorce isn't abuse and addiction. There are certainly a lot of affairs, but those happen because of the "dishes," too. 

We were just two decent people who grew apart over a nine-year marriage. The same kind you see all the time. 

We were struggling but I didn't fully realize it. I lost a job in 2010 after the '08 crash (layoff, not firing). It was tricky to find a job because I had been a newspaper reporter, and there were no more jobs available in that industry. After 18 months of unemployment, I got a good job in corporate marketing. Things were starting to get a little better. 

Out of nowhere, she lost a parent. We just got a phone call one night. 

All the years of the "little things" piling up, combined with the grief of losing her dad, it all just broke under the weight. She stuck around for 18 more months, but it was dead. 

But make no mistake. If I'd tended to the "dishes," none of that would have happened.

2. While I was still reeling from the emotional fallout of the separation, I eventually learned she was seeing someone and it hurt. I wouldn't call it an affair. But it felt the same, so who cares?

3. No. It's all true. I would hope that would feel obvious to anyone reading. It's too specific to make up, and too boring to warrant making up. 

But that's the point, isn't it? Marriages don't end from a dramatic violent act. They die from a million tiny pinpricks. 

I tell my story, because I've come to believe it is the typical American (I'm American--I have no idea how it works in other cultures) divorce story. I tell it because it's so average and so typical that I think a lot of people can relate to it (that question was long ago answered--well before the "dishes" post got popular), and I'm always hopeful that a few guys here and there will read it, and see themselves in the words, and make some changes before it's too late.

My parents split when I was 4. I grew up 500 miles away from my father, only seeing him on school breaks. 

I got divorced when I was 34, and even though I see my son 50% of the time in a cooperative shared-parenting agreement, the first 6-12 months were the worst days of my life. 

Conclusion = Divorce is bad.

This is my little way of trying to help. Some people say it does.


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> I was answering your question not looking at the other answers you were giving to other posters.
> 
> So he was a good and loving man and checked out of his relationship with you and you have no idea why??
> 
> Not sure how we could ever come up with that answer if he and you don't know.


I am not looking for an answer as to why he checked out. I think I know.. he checked out because he wanted to. He married me so he could check out. Even though he says he loves me, he does not really care about me. That is the bottom line.

I brought it up here not to discuss why he did what he did but to discuss what is a valid reason for leaving a marriage.

I stated that I was only looking at the issues of no help at all with household and children and spending no time with his wife. Is that enough for the wife (or a husband with a similar wife) to divorce? Or is the leaving spouse, the WAW/H a person lacking in commitment and selfish?


----------



## sapientia

BlueWoman said:


> I am sure I will get flamed for this, but OMG, Yes! This exactly.
> 
> She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink | Must Be This Tall To Ride


Does anyone here think that is the real reason she divorced him? LOL.


----------



## MBTTTR

It totally wasn't.


----------



## farsidejunky

MBTTTR said:


> I'm trying to just patiently read through this thread, but you're killing me just a little bit too much to go on.
> 
> Hi. I'm Matt. I'm the author of the "dishes" post that had almost NOTHING to do with dishes despite the tricky headline to the contrary.
> 
> Sorry for the rope-a-dope. When I wrote it in five seconds and hurriedly hit Publish like I do twice a week during work lunch breaks, I didn't know anyone who wasn't my regular (and not very big) audience would read it.
> 
> The post isn't about "dishes."
> 
> The post is about how men seem to have a tendency to think about disagreement with their partners this way: "She is upset about something petty again, focusing on this thing that doesn't matter and demonstrating zero gratitude for all of the things I do for her. She is being irrational. Since she's irrational, she's wrong. Since the thing she's upset about doesn't matter, I'm not going to care about it either."
> 
> After years of that, your wife stops wanting to have sex with you, starts wanting to have sex with someone else, might go do it, and will likely file for divorce regardless.
> 
> That is the cold, hard, truth.
> 
> The post wasn't about me, personally, or about my wife, per se. I just like to tell first-person stories to illustrate ideas I think about.
> 
> I didn't think a sane adult could really believe that a wife would divorce a husband over a glass by the sink. But strange things happen, I guess.
> 
> So, here's the whole thing--a major secret to helping our spouses maintain emotional health, and feel secure in their partnerships with us because we are demonstrating, to them, trustworthiness:
> 
> It might be a glass by the sink, it might be where you throw your shoes, or it might be the way she feels when you're out together in social situations, or something else.
> 
> But there is something that matters to your partner, that DOESN'T matter to you. And because it doesn't matter to you, you don't take it seriously, and the act of doing so makes your wife feel disrespected. Because you are the kind of man who does this, you likely do it about MANY "little" things in your relationship. All these things that makes her crazy and overly emotional, and you a rational male.
> 
> And because you think she's irrational, you tell her she's wrong. You do it over and over and over again.
> 
> Moving forward, when you leave the glass by the sink, or your shoes thrown wherever, or crack on her in front of your friends even though you're "just joking," THAT makes her feel pain.
> 
> It's not Leave Glass By Sink = Hurt Feelings because dirty dishes hurt feelings.
> 
> It's Leave Glass By Sink = Hurt Feelings because I've told him a bunch of times this hurts me and he's still doing it which means he's hurting me on purpose which means he doesn't love me which means I don't feel safe and can't trust him and have to leave.
> 
> I wish that wasn't how it worked. If we all felt the same about things, relationships would be easier and less complicated.
> 
> Your lack of respect for her feelings is what hurts her and why she wants to leave. NOT the silly "little thing" you're arguing about.
> 
> The lesson in all of this is super-simple: Care about the little things she cares about BECAUSE she cares about it.
> 
> You don't have to agree that leaving a glass by the sink is bad. But you DO have to agree that repeatedly hurting your wife is bad.
> 
> Just because you don't think it SHOULD hurt, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. It HURTS. Like if she told you she fantasizes about your friend Craig because she heard from one of his former girlfriends that he's packing a huge one and their entire relationship was one long orgasm.
> 
> Maybe that would hurt your pride and ego. Maybe when you saw your wife smiling at Craig at future parties, that would HURT you, even though she didn't think it was worth feeling hurt over.
> 
> A glass doesn't affect you. Cool. That doesn't mean it doesn't affect her.
> 
> The apples-to-apples comparison is not to say, if she doesn't respect your desire to drink beer and watch Thursday Night Football, then she doesn't love you.
> 
> The apples-to-apples comparison is to compare a thing that hurts one spouse with a thing that hurts the other.


I think that it mostly spot on. Where I struggle is when someone grabs a gender and applies it like it does not happen on both sides.

My wife and I have both gone through cycles of taking each other for granted.

But we have many saying it is mostly a male problem, and many saying it is a mostly female problem, when the truth is ALL people take their partner for granted, some worse than others, it borders on hypocrisy and enables America's favorite pastime: victim hood.

And then you have what you have here, which is what many of theses threads, with decent starts, end up: finger pointing at the sexes when all of us are, to a greater or lesser degree, @$$holes.

Welcome to TAM.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## SadSamIAm

MBTTTR said:


> 1. "Why did your wife leave you?"
> 
> I have a very good relationship with my ex-wife. The final 18 months of our marriage was miserable and we slept in separate rooms. The first year post-divorce was miserable and we had some words.
> 
> Today, we get along very well. Just a few hours ago, she came over to bring a couple toys for our son, and we sat in the kitchen and talked together for an hour about something school-related for our second-grader.
> 
> She is a kind, smart, talented, educated, successful professional. And she's a VERY good mother.
> 
> In the context of divorce (which I hate more than most things), I am very blessed that she is who I have to work with RE: our son, who has another 11 years or so before "legal" adulthood.
> 
> She left because of the metaphorical dishes.
> 
> That's why I write this stuff. MOST divorce isn't abuse and addiction. There are certainly a lot of affairs, but those happen because of the "dishes," too.
> 
> We were just two decent people who grew apart over a nine-year marriage. The same kind you see all the time.
> 
> We were struggling but I didn't fully realize it. I lost a job in 2010 after the '08 crash (layoff, not firing). It was tricky to find a job because I had been a newspaper reporter, and there were no more jobs available in that industry. After 18 months of unemployment, I got a good job in corporate marketing. Things were starting to get a little better.
> 
> Out of nowhere, she lost a parent. We just got a phone call one night.
> 
> All the years of the "little things" piling up, combined with the grief of losing her dad, it all just broke under the weight. She stuck around for 18 more months, but it was dead.
> 
> But make no mistake. If I'd tended to the "dishes," none of that would have happened.
> 
> 2. While I was still reeling from the emotional fallout of the separation, I eventually learned she was seeing someone and it hurt. I wouldn't call it an affair. But it felt the same, so who cares?
> 
> 3. No. It's all true. I would hope that would feel obvious to anyone reading. It's too specific to make up, and too boring to warrant making up.
> 
> But that's the point, isn't it? Marriages don't end from a dramatic violent act. They die from a million tiny pinpricks.
> 
> I tell my story, because I've come to believe it is the typical American (I'm American--I have no idea how it works in other cultures) divorce story. I tell it because it's so average and so typical that I think a lot of people can relate to it (that question was long ago answered--well before the "dishes" post got popular), and I'm always hopeful that a few guys here and there will read it, and see themselves in the words, and make some changes before it's too late.
> 
> My parents split when I was 4. I grew up 500 miles away from my father, only seeing him on school breaks.
> 
> I got divorced when I was 34, and even though I see my son 50% of the time in a cooperative shared-parenting agreement, the first 6-12 months were the worst days of my life.
> 
> Conclusion = Divorce is bad.
> 
> This is my little way of trying to help. Some people say it does.


There is a point about how a ton of small things can eventually erode people's feelings for each other. But there is also a point about people shouldn't allow small things to affect them that profoundly if they truly are small things.

Was the tea cup a metaphor for larger issues? Were you generally a bad husband who rarely helped around the house and who would leave things where ever you felt like it. Or did you do your fair share but sometimes didn't live up to her requirements?

It it was the former then I can see how it eventually eroded the marriage. If it was the latter, then I think it was on her to adjust her expectations.

Same thing with the story about The Masters. If you hardly ever spent time with her and never took your child to the park, then she has a point. But if you were a present father who spent a bunch of time playing with your child, then I think it was very rude of your wife to expect you to go to the park during The Masters. Even if you weren't a great spouse, asking someone to go the the park during The Masters (when they know it is important to you) is really just someone trying to pick a fight.

The way people take your stories is directly related to their own experiences. If we are from a marriage where the spouse is absent and not pulling their weight, then we understand why your wife left. If we are from a marriage where the spouse is OCD about many small issues and we feel like we can never please them, then we feel like she left for the wrong reasons.

Were you really that bad of a husband?


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> I am not looking for an answer as to why he checked out. I think I know.. he checked out because he wanted to. He married me so he could check out. Even though he says he loves me, he does not really care about me. That is the bottom line.
> 
> I brought it up here not to discuss why he did what he did but to discuss what is a valid reason for leaving a marriage.
> 
> I stated that I was only looking at the issues of no help at all with household and children and spending no time with his wife. Is that enough for the wife (or a husband with a similar wife) to divorce? Or is the leaving spouse, the WAW/H a person lacking in commitment and selfish?


Well if they check out and breach vows then obviously that's as good a reason as any to leave a marriage. I imagine I would. Every circumstance is going to be different
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Or put another way, it reinforces confirmation bias.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

How long where yall separated before she started seeing someone else?

Were yall separated to work on your issues or just pending a divorce?


----------



## OpenWindows

MBTTTR said:


> This is my little way of trying to help. Some people say it does.


I think it helps a few who read and relate to it, and I think that's a wonderful thing. I've read a good bit of your blog... it's strangely cathartic and painful for me, as the story of your marriage and divorce is very similar to mine. It's almost like reading my own ex-husband's words. I'm sure neither you or your wife are bad people... just human.

Welcome to TAM. How did you find our little fire-storm of a thread?


----------



## EleGirl

OpenWindows said:


> I think it helps a few who read and relate to it, and I think that's a wonderful thing. I've read a good bit of your blog... it's strangely cathartic and painful for me, as the story of your marriage and divorce is very similar to mine. It's almost like reading my own ex-husband's words. I'm sure neither you or your wife are bad people... just human.
> 
> Welcome to TAM. *How did you find our little fire-storm of a thread?*


I emailed Matt and invited him here. :grin2:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> I emailed Matt and invited him here. :grin2:


Lol... I almost did it myself.


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> Well if they check out and breach vows then obviously that's as good a reason as any to leave a marriage. I imagine I would. Every circumstance is going to be different


What is the difference of checking out right after the wedding or slowly checking out over a long time? It's checkout, out way or the other.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> What is the difference of checking out right after the wedding or slowly checking out over a long time? It's checkout, out way or the other.


I never said the time frame was a difference the reason one checks out is
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ms. GP

@MBTTTR Did you guys go to marriage counseling? 

Thanks for stopping by. You're a great writer BTW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MBTTTR

farsidejunky said:


> I think that it mostly spot on. Where I struggle is when someone grabs a gender and applies it like it does not happen on both sides.
> 
> My wife and I have both gone through cycles of taking each other for granted.
> 
> But we have many saying it is mostly a male problem, and many saying it is a mostly female problem, when the truth is ALL people take their partner for granted, some worse than others, it borders on hypocrisy and enables America's favorite pastime: victim hood.
> 
> And then you have what you have here, which is what many of theses threads, with decent starts, end up: finger pointing at the sexes when all of us are, to a greater or lesser degree, @$$holes.
> 
> Welcome to TAM.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk



Right. 

I get the "sexism" thing thrown at me a little, because I am guilty of believing it's a predominantly male problem. 

And I use He and She, and Husband and Wife, as if it can't be true in a gender-reversal way or same-sex relationship. 

This is another thing everyone used to me knows, but millions of strangers did not. 

I'm happy to share my thoughts on that, though. 

First and foremost, I DO believe men and women are GENERALLY different. You know. In the same way astrological personality profiles are generally accurate. 

Absolutely, I know there are always exceptions. And there are plenty of same-sex couples. And there are lots of cultural things that influence all of this stuff between someone raised in a liberal household in Connecticut vs. someone raised in a super-conservative environment in Oklahoma. 

I think men and women are different in the same way we make "It's a Boy!" stuff blue and "It's a Girl!" stuff pink. 

It's not ALWAYS true. It's just MOSTLY true. 

Because I'm a guy and a husband, and because I put a lot of stock in the relationship psychology sub-genre of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus," I try to keep things in the first person, and I tend to default to writing them in a He and She sort of way. 

I'm a husband who messed up on all this stuff, so I'm writing for other guys who might also be messing it up. There are aspects of the female experience I can't fully appreciate or understand. 

Because I don't know what it's like to be a woman, wife, girlfriend or mother, I try to be very careful about saying anything that might be interpreted as a life tip for women.

I see all these men say: WELL!!! Women should [blah, blah, blah]! It's not fair!"

And I find the entire notion annoying. 

I know there are a ton of great guys out there. I'm so confident in the "Great Guy" that I write stuff that results in thousands of strangers calling me and my son's mother the most vile names in the English language based on reading a tiny bit of one blog post. And I do so with purpose, trusting the "Great Guy" to see through all the noise, recognize himself, and begin a journey of self-reflection and growth that can lead to a bunch of really good things, instead of a bunch of cliche' things.

I want people to accept responsibility for their lives and marriages. 

I want guys to give and love unselfishly. 

I see so many guys (usually from the Red Pill-swallowing Manosphere, or the MGTOW crew) with their laundry list of cliche' accusations they throw at women in conjunction with a bunch of psychobabble words they made up to characterize most women in pretty horrible ways. 

They've all seen it so many times, they're convinced this is just "the way women are."

And I don't see it that way. 

I see a group of men holding onto the whole Don Draper "I'm the man, so you will do what I want and not question me and blow me once you're done cleaning up the kitchen" mentality, and wondering why women are responding negatively to it. 

And my whole thing is: If you figure out all of this stuff I'm talking about and you start making your wife feel loved, safe, cherished, desired, pursued, etc., NONE OF THAT CRAP will happen in the first place.

I'm asking men to go first. 

I'm asking men to be great husbands and fathers proactively.

I think that will make most marriage problems disappear right away.


----------



## jld

MBTTTR said:


> Right.
> 
> *I get the "sexism" thing thrown at me a little, because I am guilty of believing it's a predominantly male problem. *
> 
> And I use He and She, and Husband and Wife, as if it can't be true in a gender-reversal way or same-sex relationship.
> 
> This is another thing everyone used to me knows, but millions of strangers did not.
> 
> I'm happy to share my thoughts on that, though.
> 
> First and foremost, I DO believe men and women are GENERALLY different. You know. In the same way astrological personality profiles are generally accurate.
> 
> Absolutely, I know there are always exceptions. And there are plenty of same-sex couples. And there are lots of cultural things that influence all of this stuff between someone raised in a liberal household in Connecticut vs. someone raised in a super-conservative environment in Oklahoma.
> 
> I think men and women are different in the same way we make "It's a Boy!" stuff blue and "It's a Girl!" stuff pink.
> 
> *It's not ALWAYS true. It's just MOSTLY true. *
> 
> Because I'm a guy and a husband, and because I put a lot of stock in the relationship psychology sub-genre of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus," I try to keep things in the first person, and I tend to default to writing them in a He and She sort of way.
> 
> I'm a husband who messed up on all this stuff, so I'm writing for other guys who might also be messing it up. There are aspects of the female experience I can't fully appreciate or understand.
> 
> Because I don't know what it's like to be a woman, wife, girlfriend or mother, I try to be very careful about saying anything that might be interpreted as a life tip for women.
> 
> *I see all these men say: WELL!!! Women should [blah, blah, blah]! It's not fair!"
> 
> And I find the entire notion annoying. *
> 
> I know there are a ton of great guys out there. I'm so confident in the "Great Guy" that I write stuff that results in thousands of strangers calling me and my son's mother the most vile names in the English language based on reading a tiny bit of one blog post. And I do so with purpose, trusting the "Great Guy" to see through all the noise, recognize himself, and begin a journey of self-reflection and growth that can lead to a bunch of really good things, instead of a bunch of cliche' things.
> 
> I want people to accept responsibility for their lives and marriages.
> 
> *I want guys to give and love unselfishly. *
> 
> I see so many guys (usually from the Red Pill-swallowing Manosphere, or the MGTOW crew) with their laundry list of cliche' accusations they throw at women in conjunction with a bunch of psychobabble words they made up to characterize most women in pretty horrible ways.
> 
> They've all seen it so many times, they're convinced this is just "the way women are."
> 
> And I don't see it that way.
> 
> I see a group of men holding onto the whole Don Draper "I'm the man, so you will do what I want and not question me and blow me once you're done cleaning up the kitchen" mentality, and wondering why women are responding negatively to it.
> 
> *And my whole thing is: If you figure out all of this stuff I'm talking about and you start making your wife feel loved, safe, cherished, desired, pursued, etc., NONE OF THAT CRAP will happen in the first place.
> 
> I'm asking men to go first.
> 
> I'm asking men to be great husbands and fathers proactively.
> 
> I think that will make most marriage problems disappear right away.*


I very much agree, Matt.


----------



## MBTTTR

Ms. GP said:


> @MBTTTR Did you guys go to marriage counseling?
> 
> Thanks for stopping by. You're a great writer BTW.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi. "Great" is a little over the top, probably, but I accept your kind compliment. Thank you. I'm lucky to have people like it. I take plenty of things in life for granted. Having strangers read stuff I write and praise me for it is not one of them.

...

We did go to counseling. It didn't last long. 

I'm guilty of being anti-couples' counseling, but VERY pro-individual counseling. 

The quick-and-dirty reason is by the time most people get to counseling, they already hurt and resent one another. 

And then we ask them to say out loud all of the things their partners do that makes them feel bad. 

Two people, who promised to love and honor one another forever. And we ask them to take turns, essentially, complaining about one another to a stranger who isn't terribly invested in the outcome.

I think it's insane. And I had pretty bad experiences with it. 

I believe strongly in individual therapy. 

I think saving marriage shouldn't be about what the other person can do for me, or how the other person has to change in order for me to love and sacrifice.

I think saving marriage is about choosing to love even when it's inconvenient. I think if we all just did whatever we "felt" like, zero marriages would stay intact. We'd all murder each other, run away, or have sex with someone else.

"Feelings" are tricky things, and I don't think in the context of fulfilling marriage vows, they're the best guide to what we should do. 

The go up and down, and side to side. Constantly changing. 

So. We choose our partners. We choose them every day, even when we're a little bit pissed, or a little bit sad, or a little bit stressed, or a little bit afraid. 

We get out of bed and say: "I choose my marriage today. I will choose it tomorrow. I will choose it the day after that."

We're all going to get bored with one another. We're all going to get angry. We're all going to secretly want this thing or that, that our partner sometimes lacks. 

And every adult knows the truth--that if we go chase that thing we want that our partner lacks, we're just going to end up disappointed and dissatisfied when it dawns on us that it wasn't really our previous partner, because "This feels just like before." It's me. 

Because, wherever you go, there you are. 

...

Marriage counseling needs to be about: "How can I be the best possible husband I can be? What do I need to do to achieve that and make my partner's life as satisfying and fulfilling as possible?"

A person working toward that, with a partner doing the same gets to make it. 

A person working toward that, with a partner unwilling to do the same gets to sleep at night knowing he gave all he could. No regrets.

A person working toward that has an outstanding chance to have a great relationship on the next go round, and help their children, and friends, and family do the same. 

Figuring out how to fix oneself instead of how to fix someone else, seems like obvious solution to me.


----------



## MBTTTR

SadSamIAm said:


> There is a point about how a ton of small things can eventually erode people's feelings for each other. But there is also a point about people shouldn't allow small things to affect them that profoundly if they truly are small things.
> 
> Was the tea cup a metaphor for larger issues? Were you generally a bad husband who rarely helped around the house and who would leave things where ever you felt like it. Or did you do your fair share but sometimes didn't live up to her requirements?
> 
> It it was the former then I can see how it eventually eroded the marriage. If it was the latter, then I think it was on her to adjust her expectations.
> 
> Same thing with the story about The Masters. If you hardly ever spent time with her and never took your child to the park, then she has a point. But if you were a present father who spent a bunch of time playing with your child, then I think it was very rude of your wife to expect you to go to the park during The Masters. Even if you weren't a great spouse, asking someone to go the the park during The Masters (when they know it is important to you) is really just someone trying to pick a fight.
> 
> The way people take your stories is directly related to their own experiences. If we are from a marriage where the spouse is absent and not pulling their weight, then we understand why your wife left. If we are from a marriage where the spouse is OCD about many small issues and we feel like we can never please them, then we feel like she left for the wrong reasons.
> 
> Were you really that bad of a husband?



I'm sure there were some things my wife could have done to benefit our relationship. 

There were some obvious moments I felt like she sucked more than I did. I'm sure that's true in every marriage. 

But. 

1. I'm not going to write about the shortcomings I perceived my wife to have castrating every single point I'm trying to make while encouraging men to pursue greatness in their marriages.

2. EVEN IF she was, say, 80% responsible for the marriage failing, am I somehow not obligated to try and improve on my minority share? (Rest assured she got it right more often than I did.)

3. Life is about taking ownership of yourself and doing the best you can. I PROMISE, the day I'm kicking ass every second of every day and walking on water and never hurting anyone, I'll start pointing fingers and throwing stones.


----------



## MBTTTR

Blossom Leigh said:


> How long where yall separated before she started seeing someone else?
> 
> Were yall separated to work on your issues or just pending a divorce?


We were separated because the marriage was over. It had been over 18 months. It's just that I spent much of that time in the guest room trying to figure out all these things I think I've figured out, and trying to keep the family together. 

She finally made it official one day. The judge signed our dissolution of marriage four months later. (I just say divorce because it's easier.)

I don't have all the details about my wife's follow-up relationship. 

I also am not interested in discussing it. 

My writing is about men accepting responsibility for their marriages and being great husbands. The rest is just noise.


----------



## Ms. GP

Thank you for answering. For the record, I'm a big fan of IC and MC. I had a good experience with MC. For us, it wasn't so much about airing of the grievances but more about learning to communicate and resolve conflicts. The counselor was very unbiased which I think is key. Do you think mabye your bias about MC going in, might have affected things? Not trying to pour salt in old wounds BTW. 

Have you found a new relationship yet? Are things different?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MBTTTR said:


> We were separated because the marriage was over. It had been over 18 months. It's just that I spent much of that time in the guest room trying to figure out all these things I think I've figured out, and trying to keep the family together.
> 
> She finally made it official one day. The judge signed our dissolution of marriage four months later. (I just say divorce because it's easier.)
> 
> I don't have all the details about my wife's follow-up relationship.
> 
> I also am not interested in discussing it.
> 
> My writing is about men accepting responsibility for their marriages and being great husbands. The rest is just noise.


Kudos on taking responsibility.

Kudos on believing that responsibility for the marriage isn't solely on the husband. That everyone bears their personal best FOR the relationship.

Yet, as you know, I do not let the women off the hook as easily or as quickly as you do.

History can be rewritten, just be careful. Its why I asked about her relationship, because that is prime area to rewrite if had been an affair before splitting. Self assess and make sure you aren't taking on things that don't belong on you. 

In addition, I have seen great efforts by men be ripped to shreds by women. You are admitting you didn't give great effort. Thats on you. Glad you are self assessing, learning and growing. But questions remain to me about the level of committment your wife had. Personally, I think she gave up too easy or too soon, or both. Just my opinion.


----------



## MBTTTR

Ms. GP said:


> Thank you for answering. For the record, I'm a big fan of IC and MC. I had a good experience with MC. For us, it wasn't so much about airing of the grievances but more about learning to communicate and resolve conflicts. The counselor was very unbiased which I think is key. Do you think mabye your bias about MC going in, might have affected things? Not trying to pour salt in old wounds BTW.
> 
> Have you found a new relationship yet? Are things different?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My bias about marriage counseling came about AFTER marriage counseling. 

I wanted to go really bad before we started going because I very much wanted us to make it. 

I'm sure the right counselor or therapist can make all the difference in the world. 

I have been single every day since April 1, 2013. I meet people here and there. Life and logistics either gets in the way, or I know right away there's no future. 

There has been nothing reminiscent of a serious relationship. 

One of the things I wanted to write about soon is how I'm afraid once I do find myself in the midst of one, that natural chemistry and habits take over, and I find myself doing some of the same things I was doing in my marriage. 

I want to be super clear on this point: Most ****ty husbands aren't ****ty husbands because they're bad men. They're good men, and they simply have no idea that leaving a dish by a sink can be such a big deal.


----------



## VirgenTecate

farsidejunky said:


> I think that it mostly spot on. Where I struggle is when someone grabs a gender and applies it like it does not happen on both sides.
> 
> My wife and I have both gone through cycles of taking each other for granted.
> 
> But we have many saying it is mostly a male problem, and many saying it is a mostly female problem, when the truth is ALL people take their partner for granted, some worse than others, it borders on hypocrisy and enables America's favorite pastime: victim hood.
> 
> And then you have what you have here, which is what many of theses threads, with decent starts, end up: finger pointing at the sexes when all of us are, to a greater or lesser degree, @$$holes.
> 
> Welcome to TAM.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Haha yes to all of this. I love TAM but this is very accurate.


----------



## MBTTTR

Blossom Leigh said:


> Kudos on taking responsibility.
> 
> Kudos on believing that responsibility for the marriage isn't solely on the husband. That everyone bears their personal best FOR the relationship.
> 
> Yet, as you know, I do not let the women off the hook as easily or as quickly as you do.
> 
> History can be rewritten, just be careful. Its why I asked about her relationship, because that is prime area to rewrite if had been an affair before splitting. Self assess and make sure you aren't taking on things that don't belong on you.
> 
> In addition, I have seen great efforts by men be ripped to shreds by women. You are admitting you didn't give great effort. Thats on you. Glad you are self assessing, learning and growing. But questions remain to me about the level of committment your wife had. Personally, I think she gave up too easy or too soon, or both. Just my opinion.


I don't disagree. 

Here's one of my biggest things about divorce:

If you're splitting because of "irreconcilable differences" then I generally think it only makes sense if you're going to stay single the rest of your life. 

If you're going to pair up again, then all the same bull**** is going to crop up again, just in different shades of black and white. So, why not persevere on behalf of the family?

Our emotions (or lack thereof) are powerful. I've seen or talked to countless couples on the brink of divorce now. 

It's USUALLY my story. Guy does a bunch of stuff that exhausts wife, and he doesn't know how serious it is to her and that she's going to leave. Once he figures out his marriage is on the rocks, he jumps into gear FINALLY, but she's already emotionally checked out. Even IF he starts making a bunch of progress and figuring things out, she's not responding positively because for all intents and purposes she already left the marriage. Then the guy gives up, because what's the point in working when it's all for naught anyway? And then she says: "See!? You never follow through on anything. More proof you don't really love me."

Then she leaves, or he starts sleeping with the girl at work who likes him and knows his wife never touches him.

The wife was never really emotionally available. She asked and asked and asked and asked, and he kept choosing everything but her. And it's all over. 

On paper, you're right. On paper, I was right. Why go through the fuss of divorce and split up our family, when you're going to see that all relationships have these problems, and I'm trying really hard to figure things out?

...

None of that really matters for what I want to help guys do, though. I want to help them make better choices every day, so that the emotional disconnect and relationship breakdown never happens in the first place. 

I'm not for people hanging on for dear life. I'm for people staying far away from the edge with prudence and good life choices.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MBTTTR said:


> I don't disagree.
> 
> Here's one of my biggest things about divorce:
> 
> If you're splitting because of "irreconcilable differences" then I generally think it only makes sense if you're going to stay single the rest of your life.
> 
> If you're going to pair up again, then all the same bull**** is going to crop up again, just in different shades of black and white. So, why not persevere on behalf of the family?
> 
> Our emotions (or lack thereof) are powerful. I've seen or talked to countless couples on the brink of divorce now.
> 
> It's USUALLY my story. Guy does a bunch of stuff that exhausts wife, and he doesn't know how serious it is to her and that she's going to leave. Once he figures out his marriage is on the rocks, he jumps into gear FINALLY, but she's already emotionally checked out. Even IF he starts making a bunch of progress and figuring things out, she's not responding positively because for all intents and purposes she already left the marriage. Then the guy gives up, because what's the point in working when it's all for naught anyway? And then she says: "See!? You never follow through on anything. More proof you don't really love me."
> 
> Then she leaves, or he starts sleeping with the girl at work who likes him and knows his wife never touches him.
> 
> The wife was never really emotionally available. She asked and asked and asked and asked, and he kept choosing everything but her. And it's all over.
> 
> On paper, you're right. On paper, I was right. Why go through the fuss of divorce and split up our family, when you're going to see that all relationships have these problems, and I'm trying really hard to figure things out?
> 
> ...
> 
> None of that really matters for what I want to help guys do, though. I want to help them make better choices every day, so that the emotional disconnect and relationship breakdown never happens in the first place.
> 
> I'm not for people hanging on for dear life. I'm for people staying far away from the edge with prudence and good life choices.


Correct why not persevere  See this is where I fall on it. My H and I almost lost it all. We have one son. My H had an affair and became abusive, but after time studying and doing MY homework I determined he had the capacity to right himself. I loved him and was committed enough to allow him that chance. I feel it was on me at that point that as long as he was willing, I wasn't going to kill his try with criticism. Today, we survived it and our home is loving, peaceful and in tact. Her being fed up does not justify her poor attitude on your try. Should your try been sooner, sure, but that's not an excuse not to accept try when it does come especially when children are involved. 

He retrained himself to choose better. I was willing to allow that process.

I think your wife should have allowed that process, cause see.. here you are today a better man. It didn't have to end. And you are 100% right, those relationship issues CAN extend to the next relationship so its wise to address them in the current one. That was a main reason I stayed as well. A third relationship wasn't the answer.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> I very much agree, Matt.


I agree that what you are asking seems reasonable, however, I have seen firsthand how a man did all you're asking a man to do, and his cheating, nasty ***** of a wife slept with anything that walked, even his beat friend. Then she told him she wanted to move and put him on the hook for an expensive home and divorced him immediately. She even told my ex, who coincidentally made a similar move after saying what an evil lady she wAs, did the same thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> I agree that what you are asking seems reasonable, however, I have seen firsthand how a man did all you're asking a man to do, and his cheating, nasty ***** of a wife slept with anything that walked, even his beat friend. Then she told him she wanted to move and put him on the hook for an expensive home and divorced him immediately. She even told my ex, who coincidentally made a similar move after saying what an evil lady she wAs, did the same thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I had had similar experiences, I would surely see things the way you and some others on the thread see them, evinrude. But my experience is more like Matt's.


----------



## Marduk

MBTTTR said:


> I'm trying to just patiently read through this thread, but you're killing me just a little bit too much to go on.
> 
> Hi. I'm Matt. I'm the author of the "dishes" post that had almost NOTHING to do with dishes despite the tricky headline to the contrary.
> 
> Sorry for the rope-a-dope. When I wrote it in five seconds and hurriedly hit Publish like I do twice a week during work lunch breaks, I didn't know anyone who wasn't my regular (and not very big) audience would read it.
> 
> The post isn't about "dishes."
> 
> The post is about how men seem to have a tendency to think about disagreement with their partners this way: "She is upset about something petty again, focusing on this thing that doesn't matter and demonstrating zero gratitude for all of the things I do for her. She is being irrational. Since she's irrational, she's wrong. Since the thing she's upset about doesn't matter, I'm not going to care about it either."
> 
> After years of that, your wife stops wanting to have sex with you, starts wanting to have sex with someone else, might go do it, and will likely file for divorce regardless.
> 
> That is the cold, hard, truth.
> 
> The post wasn't about me, personally, or about my wife, per se. I just like to tell first-person stories to illustrate ideas I think about.
> 
> I didn't think a sane adult could really believe that a wife would divorce a husband over a glass by the sink. But strange things happen, I guess.
> 
> So, here's the whole thing--a major secret to helping our spouses maintain emotional health, and feel secure in their partnerships with us because we are demonstrating, to them, trustworthiness:
> 
> It might be a glass by the sink, it might be where you throw your shoes, or it might be the way she feels when you're out together in social situations, or something else.
> 
> But there is something that matters to your partner, that DOESN'T matter to you. And because it doesn't matter to you, you don't take it seriously, and the act of doing so makes your wife feel disrespected. Because you are the kind of man who does this, you likely do it about MANY "little" things in your relationship. All these things that makes her crazy and overly emotional, and you a rational male.
> 
> And because you think she's irrational, you tell her she's wrong. You do it over and over and over again.
> 
> Moving forward, when you leave the glass by the sink, or your shoes thrown wherever, or crack on her in front of your friends even though you're "just joking," THAT makes her feel pain.
> 
> It's not Leave Glass By Sink = Hurt Feelings because dirty dishes hurt feelings.
> 
> It's Leave Glass By Sink = Hurt Feelings because I've told him a bunch of times this hurts me and he's still doing it which means he's hurting me on purpose which means he doesn't love me which means I don't feel safe and can't trust him and have to leave.
> 
> I wish that wasn't how it worked. If we all felt the same about things, relationships would be easier and less complicated.
> 
> Your lack of respect for her feelings is what hurts her and why she wants to leave. NOT the silly "little thing" you're arguing about.
> 
> The lesson in all of this is super-simple: Care about the little things she cares about BECAUSE she cares about it.
> 
> You don't have to agree that leaving a glass by the sink is bad. But you DO have to agree that repeatedly hurting your wife is bad.
> 
> Just because you don't think it SHOULD hurt, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. It HURTS. Like if she told you she fantasizes about your friend Craig because she heard from one of his former girlfriends that he's packing a huge one and their entire relationship was one long orgasm.
> 
> Maybe that would hurt your pride and ego. Maybe when you saw your wife smiling at Craig at future parties, that would HURT you, even though she didn't think it was worth feeling hurt over.
> 
> A glass doesn't affect you. Cool. That doesn't mean it doesn't affect her.
> 
> The apples-to-apples comparison is not to say, if she doesn't respect your desire to drink beer and watch Thursday Night Football, then she doesn't love you.
> 
> The apples-to-apples comparison is to compare a thing that hurts one spouse with a thing that hurts the other.


And where does it end?

I can very well make a claim that anyone that loves me prove it by doing everything I want any time I want.

See, there's two sides to every exchange of love. One is loving someone the way they want to be loved. The other is receiving love the way they want to love you.


----------



## Marduk

MBTTTR said:


> 1. "Why did your wife leave you?"
> 
> I have a very good relationship with my ex-wife. The final 18 months of our marriage was miserable and we slept in separate rooms. The first year post-divorce was miserable and we had some words.
> 
> Today, we get along very well. Just a few hours ago, she came over to bring a couple toys for our son, and we sat in the kitchen and talked together for an hour about something school-related for our second-grader.
> 
> She is a kind, smart, talented, educated, successful professional. And she's a VERY good mother.
> 
> In the context of divorce (which I hate more than most things), I am very blessed that she is who I have to work with RE: our son, who has another 11 years or so before "legal" adulthood.
> 
> She left because of the metaphorical dishes.
> 
> That's why I write this stuff. MOST divorce isn't abuse and addiction. There are certainly a lot of affairs, but those happen because of the "dishes," too.
> 
> We were just two decent people who grew apart over a nine-year marriage. The same kind you see all the time.
> 
> We were struggling but I didn't fully realize it. I lost a job in 2010 after the '08 crash (layoff, not firing). It was tricky to find a job because I had been a newspaper reporter, and there were no more jobs available in that industry. After 18 months of unemployment, I got a good job in corporate marketing. Things were starting to get a little better.
> 
> Out of nowhere, she lost a parent. We just got a phone call one night.
> 
> All the years of the "little things" piling up, combined with the grief of losing her dad, it all just broke under the weight. She stuck around for 18 more months, but it was dead.
> 
> But make no mistake. If I'd tended to the "dishes," none of that would have happened.
> 
> 2. While I was still reeling from the emotional fallout of the separation, I eventually learned she was seeing someone and it hurt. I wouldn't call it an affair. But it felt the same, so who cares?
> 
> 3. No. It's all true. I would hope that would feel obvious to anyone reading. It's too specific to make up, and too boring to warrant making up.
> 
> But that's the point, isn't it? Marriages don't end from a dramatic violent act. They die from a million tiny pinpricks.
> 
> I tell my story, because I've come to believe it is the typical American (I'm American--I have no idea how it works in other cultures) divorce story. I tell it because it's so average and so typical that I think a lot of people can relate to it (that question was long ago answered--well before the "dishes" post got popular), and I'm always hopeful that a few guys here and there will read it, and see themselves in the words, and make some changes before it's too late.
> 
> My parents split when I was 4. I grew up 500 miles away from my father, only seeing him on school breaks.
> 
> I got divorced when I was 34, and even though I see my son 50% of the time in a cooperative shared-parenting agreement, the first 6-12 months were the worst days of my life.
> 
> Conclusion = Divorce is bad.
> 
> This is my little way of trying to help. Some people say it does.


I think if you would have said "**** it" to the dishes and focused on the core issues of your marriage, you'd still be married, and she wouldn't care about the dishes.

You want to know when the small things matter?

When the big things are broken.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> I think if you would have said "**** it" to the dishes and focused on the core issues of your marriage, you'd still be married, and she wouldn't care about the dishes.
> 
> You want to know when the small things matter?
> 
> When the big things are broken.


Boy, that sums it up in a nut shell. Well said.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Boy, that sums it up in a nut shell. Well said.


Thanks -- and you can't fix the big things by focusing on the small things.

Sometimes the only way you fix the big things is by ignoring the small things.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> Thanks -- and you can't fix the big things by focusing on the small things.
> 
> Sometimes the only way you fix the big things is by ignoring the small things.


Agree, because I HAD to ignore many small things on the way to fixing the big things as did my H because some days were just crap and we would screw it up, shake it off and try again the next day until we got good at getting it right consistently over time. Then later the small things fell back into place.


----------



## EleGirl

Blossom Leigh said:


> Correct why not persevere  See this is where I fall on it. My H and I almost lost it all. We have one son. My H had an affair and became abusive, but after time studying and doing MY homework I determined he had the capacity to right himself. I loved him and was committed enough to allow him that chance. I feel it was on me at that point that as long as he was willing, I wasn't going to kill his try with criticism. Today, we survived it and our home is loving, peaceful and in tact. Her being fed up does not justify her poor attitude on your try. Should your try been sooner, sure, but that's not an excuse not to accept try when it does come especially when children are involved.
> 
> He retrained himself to choose better. I was willing to allow that process.
> 
> I think your wife should have allowed that process, cause see.. here you are today a better man. It didn't have to end. And you are 100% right, those relationship issues CAN extend to the next relationship so its wise to address them in the current one. That was a main reason I stayed as well. A third relationship wasn't the answer.


You left your first husband, right?


----------



## EleGirl

Evinrude58 said:


> I agree that what you are asking seems reasonable, however, I have seen firsthand how a man did all you're asking a man to do, and his cheating, nasty ***** of a wife slept with anything that walked, even his beat friend. Then she told him she wanted to move and put him on the hook for an expensive home and divorced him immediately. She even told my ex, who coincidentally made a similar move after saying what an evil lady she wAs, did the same thing.


Are you saying that because you woman you know and your wife did this, all men should not try to be the best husbands that they could be?

Because that's what it sounds like.


----------



## jdawg2015

xenote said:


> some men do wash the dishes, do the laundry, we vacuum, pick up the kids, clean the house, and we even iron....does that mean we can also walk away because of a sexless marriage......is this a equal opportunity to walk away for men as well...because i have people who count on me, i have bills to pay, i don't have the luxury to walk away.


bingo!


----------



## EleGirl

marduk said:


> And where does it end?
> 
> I can very well make a claim that anyone that loves me prove it by doing everything I want any time I want.
> 
> See, there's two sides to every exchange of love. One is loving someone the way they want to be loved. The other is receiving love the way they want to love you.


What is confusing me is this assumption that when a woman asks her husband to meet her needs, that it is just her demanding that he prove his love for her by doing everything that she wants any time she wants. Why the assumption that this is what women want?

Do we make the same assumption when a man asks that his wife meet some needs of his?


----------



## SadSamIAm

EleGirl said:


> You left your first husband, right?


I don't see the point of asking Blossom this!

Do you not see that all marriages are not the same?

I look at your circumstances and my opinion is that you were justified to leave your marriage.

I look at the circumstances of Mr. Glass in the sink, and my opinion is he wasn't that bad of a guy for his wife to leave him.

Now maybe Blossom left her first husband and now realizes she should have hung in there because every relationship has issues. Maybe she left her first husband because he was a lazy drunk or he cheated on her. Maybe she cheated on him. 

What is the point of bringing up her first marriage in this discussion?


----------



## EleGirl

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't see the point of asking Blossom this!
> 
> Do you not see that all marriages are not the same?
> 
> I look at your circumstances and my opinion is that you were justified to leave your marriage.
> 
> I look at the circumstances of Mr. Glass in the sink, and my opinion is he wasn't that bad of a guy for his wife to leave him.
> 
> Now maybe Blossom left her first husband and now realizes she should have hung in there because every relationship has issues. Maybe she left her first husband because he was a lazy drunk or he cheated on her. Maybe she cheated on him.
> 
> What is the point of bringing up her first marriage in this discussion?


I bring I up because I think her take on that would be interesting to hear if her approach was different in her first marriage and if she thinks she should have stuck it out. And what she learned from that.


----------



## alte Dame

MBTTTR said:


> I'm trying to just patiently read through this thread, but you're killing me just a little bit too much to go on.
> 
> Hi. I'm Matt. I'm the author of the "dishes" post that had almost NOTHING to do with dishes despite the tricky headline to the contrary.
> 
> Sorry for the rope-a-dope. When I wrote it in five seconds and hurriedly hit Publish like I do twice a week during work lunch breaks, I didn't know anyone who wasn't my regular (and not very big) audience would read it.
> 
> The post isn't about "dishes."
> 
> The post is about how men seem to have a tendency to think about disagreement with their partners this way: "She is upset about something petty again, focusing on this thing that doesn't matter and demonstrating zero gratitude for all of the things I do for her. She is being irrational. Since she's irrational, she's wrong. Since the thing she's upset about doesn't matter, I'm not going to care about it either."
> 
> After years of that, your wife stops wanting to have sex with you, starts wanting to have sex with someone else, might go do it, and will likely file for divorce regardless.
> 
> That is the cold, hard, truth.
> 
> The post wasn't about me, personally, or about my wife, per se. I just like to tell first-person stories to illustrate ideas I think about.
> 
> I didn't think a sane adult could really believe that a wife would divorce a husband over a glass by the sink. But strange things happen, I guess.
> 
> So, here's the whole thing--a major secret to helping our spouses maintain emotional health, and feel secure in their partnerships with us because we are demonstrating, to them, trustworthiness:
> 
> It might be a glass by the sink, it might be where you throw your shoes, or it might be the way she feels when you're out together in social situations, or something else.
> 
> But there is something that matters to your partner, that DOESN'T matter to you. And because it doesn't matter to you, you don't take it seriously, and the act of doing so makes your wife feel disrespected. Because you are the kind of man who does this, you likely do it about MANY "little" things in your relationship. All these things that makes her crazy and overly emotional, and you a rational male.
> 
> And because you think she's irrational, you tell her she's wrong. You do it over and over and over again.
> 
> Moving forward, when you leave the glass by the sink, or your shoes thrown wherever, or crack on her in front of your friends even though you're "just joking," THAT makes her feel pain.
> 
> It's not Leave Glass By Sink = Hurt Feelings because dirty dishes hurt feelings.
> 
> It's Leave Glass By Sink = Hurt Feelings because I've told him a bunch of times this hurts me and he's still doing it which means he's hurting me on purpose which means he doesn't love me which means I don't feel safe and can't trust him and have to leave.
> 
> I wish that wasn't how it worked. If we all felt the same about things, relationships would be easier and less complicated.
> 
> Your lack of respect for her feelings is what hurts her and why she wants to leave. NOT the silly "little thing" you're arguing about.
> 
> The lesson in all of this is super-simple: Care about the little things she cares about BECAUSE she cares about it.
> 
> You don't have to agree that leaving a glass by the sink is bad. But you DO have to agree that repeatedly hurting your wife is bad.
> 
> Just because you don't think it SHOULD hurt, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. It HURTS. Like if she told you she fantasizes about your friend Craig because she heard from one of his former girlfriends that he's packing a huge one and their entire relationship was one long orgasm.
> 
> Maybe that would hurt your pride and ego. Maybe when you saw your wife smiling at Craig at future parties, that would HURT you, even though she didn't think it was worth feeling hurt over.
> 
> A glass doesn't affect you. Cool. That doesn't mean it doesn't affect her.
> 
> The apples-to-apples comparison is not to say, if she doesn't respect your desire to drink beer and watch Thursday Night Football, then she doesn't love you.
> 
> The apples-to-apples comparison is to compare a thing that hurts one spouse with a thing that hurts the other.


I think you are very insightful and fair-minded. What you talk about has been an ongoing source of difficulty in my own long-term marriage. My husband substitutes his judgment and emotion for mine all the time, assuming that his is 'more reasonable.' This happens in things big and small. I perceive it as a slow drip of disrespect.

The men here objecting to the OP are, in my opinion, missing the point. If women feel the way they feel, how are men in any position to declare that the women don't feel the way they feel?

I'm well aware that I have behaviors that bother my husband. This in no way negates, neutralizes, or changes the reality that Matt describes. (And he is, I believe, completely on the money.)

I am a rational, thoughtful, well-educated woman, and believe that when my husband tacitly and reflexively discounts my feelings or opinions, HE is often the one who is not seeing or thinking clearly. 

These things are indeed an issue of respect to a woman. The men who insist that the women are wrong in this are just illustrating the point.


----------



## MJJEAN

EleGirl said:


> You listed those that you agree with as valid reasons to leave.
> 
> I also think that divorce if justified when one spouse basically dumps all, or the major part, of the respopnslibty for the household, child care, personal things like finances, etc. on the other when they both work or when it is the bread winner who has it all dumped on them. This shows such a level of selfishness/entitlement and lack of care/respect for their spouse that I do thing that the spouse is justified.


I wouldn't think general laziness would qualify as good reason to leave a marriage, but your example was more than just the guy doesn't care much about housework type laziness. 

Some people just aren't as bothered by a certain level of messiness and/or are a bit lazy but are otherwise good partners who contribute to the household and the personal relationship between spouses in other ways.

Your ex broke the marital contract into pieces by refusing to contribute and refusing you sex and companionship. He abandoned you and the marriage while still hanging around the house.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

EleGirl said:


> You left your first husband, right?


Hey there.. just now seeing this. I will respond tomorrow when its not so late and I'm not so tired, because it deserves good thought to write it out.

Nite yall


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

marduk said:


> Thanks -- and you can't fix the big things by focusing on the small things.
> 
> Sometimes the only way you fix the big things is by ignoring the small things.


I think of the small things as little bits of ice sticking up from a massive hidden but dangerous iceberg.

Ignore those little hints at your peril. Especially if your spouse keeps harping on about them.


----------



## soccermom2three

marduk said:


> I think if you would have said "**** it" to the dishes and focused on the core issues of your marriage, you'd still be married, and she wouldn't care about the dishes.
> 
> 
> 
> You want to know when the small things matter?
> 
> 
> 
> When the big things are broken.



You still think it's about the dish,lol.


----------



## SadSamIAm

soccermom2three said:


> You still think it's about the dish,lol.


He said the exact opposite. He said the guy should have forgotten about the dishes and focused on the core issues.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

Hi Matt, thanks for posting. I haven't read all of your blog, do you have custody of your son?


----------



## NobodySpecial

MBTTTR said:


> I'm asking men to go first.


This is the only bit I disagree with. The stronger one goes first. The one with the capacity and insight goes first. It takes only on to change a dynamic. The other must choose how to respond. Often loving behavior begets loving behavior.


----------



## OpenWindows

SadSamIAm said:


> He said the exact opposite. He said the guy should have forgotten about the dishes and focused on the core issues.


I think he should have done both. Ignoring the dish issue would be another case of writing off something that is important to his wife, by saying it's not important enough to deal with right now. 

Forgetting about the dish reinforces his wife's idea that her feelings are not important to him. If he ignored the dish while focusing on the feeling of disrespect, his wife would see him saying the right words ("I want to make you feel respected") while continuing negative actions that contradict that. She would probably think he wasn't listening to her feelings, and was just telling her what she wants to hear. After all, he's continuing the action that makes her feel disrespected... why would that feel to her like he's focusing on the disrespect issue?


----------



## OpenWindows

NobodySpecial said:


> This is the only bit I disagree with. The stronger one goes first. The one with the capacity and insight goes first. It takes only on to change a dynamic. The other must choose how to respond. Often loving behavior begets loving behavior.


In theory, that sounds good. In a lot of cases, I would agree with this. But if she's trying to talk to him and he's not listening, and he's dismissing her feelings as irrational, how does she go about starting the change? That's the part many of us struggle with, especially when our husband feels his behavior already IS loving and fair, because he's dismissing our feelings on that as "wrong".


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> This is the only bit I disagree with. The stronger one goes first. The one with the capacity and insight goes first. It takes only on to change a dynamic. The other must choose how to respond. Often loving behavior begets loving behavior.


Totally agree. 

I was that person in both marriages.

My first husband lacked emotional intelligence AND was unwilling to change that in order to engage me.

My second husband has the emotional intelligence in spades AND was willing after some hard boundaries to dig in and do the work to be a better man for me and our son.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ok.. my ex and what I learned. Like many of you my 1st H put me dead last on his priority list. He was a fire fighter who also had another job, so was gone almost 75% of the time already. Then when he was home he wanted to focus on his toys. He was a Big Boy Toys advocate. I felt like I chased that man for 17 years. He ran all over me financially to the point it bankrupted us and I could never get him to change course to fix it. As soon as we were finished paying back the courts he then shifted his big toys to Harleys and after 17 years of trying to get him to care about us financially, he then stepped over the line and basically asked me to be in an open marriage after he openly fantasized about it one night while we were intimate. The hardest part about his fantasy was he mentioned two of my closest friends names. I was devastated. I broke after that moment.

Looking back on it, I know I had NO boundaries. Had I known then what I know today about boundaries, that path would have been very different. He was a decent guy in a lot of ways, hard worker, jovial personality, everybody loved him and was SHOCKED when I left. We got along very easily, but part of the reason why... I had no boundaries. The woman behind me had boundaries and their relationship was VERY different from ours. So, I appreciated Matt's mention of boundaries and persevering to fix them in a current relationship because that has been my experience. My boundary issues followed me into my second marriage and when problems showed up I recognized that a third marriage wasn't going to fix that. 

I liken it to horse women I've seen and rode with who will sell their horse and get another one hoping it will fix the problem of the horse running off with them. They go buy another horse, guess what, that one runs off too. I saw a girl go through four horses and she never figured out it was HER and not the horse. Me? I've had the same two horses for 13 years because I know my inability to handle a horse is not the horses fault. Same thing with a man. My inability to handle a man is not the man's fault. So I learned how to handle a horse and I learned how to handle a man


----------



## NobodySpecial

OpenWindows said:


> In theory, that sounds good. In a lot of cases, I would agree with this. But if she's trying to talk to him and he's not listening, and he's dismissing her feelings as irrational, how does she go about starting the change? That's the part many of us struggle with, especially when our husband feels his behavior already IS loving and fair, because he's dismissing our feelings on that as "wrong".


In a word. Boundaries.


----------



## ButtPunch

OpenWindows said:


> Forgetting about the dish reinforces his wife's idea that her feelings are not important to him. If he ignored the dish while focusing on the feeling of disrespect, his wife would see him saying the right words ("I want to make you feel respected") while continuing negative actions that contradict that. She would probably think he wasn't listening to her feelings, and was just telling her what she wants to hear. After all, he's continuing the action that makes her feel disrespected... why would that feel to her like he's focusing on the disrespect issue?


I'm sorry but who becomes resentful over a dish left in the sink and just try and tell me who the person with the problem is. 

I have come to grips that I am a very peculiar person. I think the dishwasher should be loaded a certain way, foods should be put away a certain way, etc. You know No plastic containers on the bottom shelf of the dishwasher kind of guy. Don't overload the washing machine because the clothes don't come clean. 

However, these things are not important to my wife. They just aren't. I could be like Matt's wife and start building my resentment wall because my wife is dismissing my feelings however rational or irrational she deems them. They are my feelings right.

I don't want to live that way. I choose not to live that way. I don't want a hardened heart. I like being happy. I accept my wife for who she is an imperfect person just *like myself*. I hope she accepts me for who I am as well. Happiness is a lot more fun than sweating the small stuff. Some people are resentment mongers and just love building their walls of unhappiness. 

I feel confident that Matt has done the work on his side of the street and will be successful going forward and I can only hope his ex has done the same.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ButtPunch said:


> I'm sorry but who becomes resentful over a dish left in the sink and just try and tell me who the person with the problem is.
> 
> I have come to grips that I am a very peculiar person. I think the dishwasher should be loaded a certain way, foods should be put away a certain way, etc. You know plastic containers on the bottom shelf of the dishwasher kind of guy. Don't overload the washing machine because the clothes don't come clean.
> 
> However, these things are not important to my wife. They just aren't. I could be like Matt's wife and start building my resentment wall because my wife is dismissing my feelings however rational or irrational she deems them. They are my feelings right.
> 
> I don't want to live that way. I choose not to live that way. I don't want a hardened heart. I like being happy. I accept my wife for who she is an imperfect person just *like myself*. Happiness is a lot more fun than sweating the small stuff. Some people are resentment mongers and just love building their walls of unhappiness.
> 
> I feel confident that Matt has done the work on his side of the street and will be successful going forward and I can only hope his ex has done the same.


That's the other part of this ... accepting your partner in their imperfect state. I've had to learn to accept my H, extend mercy, grace and RELAX. And he has had to do the same of me. 

I would venture to say if your spouse isn't respecting you, you have no boundaries.

If one of the spouses is being unreasonable, they are not accepting. 

It takes wisdom to know which is which because from the outside they can look identical.


----------



## MBTTTR

marduk said:


> And where does it end?
> 
> I can very well make a claim that anyone that loves me prove it by doing everything I want any time I want.
> 
> See, there's two sides to every exchange of love. One is loving someone the way they want to be loved. The other is receiving love the way they want to love you.


This is a fair question. And it's the one I'm TERRIFIED to potentially face whenever I find myself in a new serious, long-term relationship. 

Here's how I'm hoping to to address it proactively. 

I'm going to very clearly state my boundaries, and have a bunch of conversations about these types of moments over several months and probably years with my significant other. 

We will both have a long track record of respecting one another's boundaries and communicating effectively before I ever agree to marry again. Especially with my child involved (and possibly children she might have).

If there is a repeated pattern of anger and sadness and fighting over things in the way I remember them happening in my marriage, that will be the indicator I need to not sign the dotted line for the rest of my life. 

I trust myself to not be with someone who would be ridiculous. I know what you're talking about. 

The VAST majority of the time I hurt my wife's feelings (I mean, damn near 100-percent) it was done accidentally. I never thought to myself: "I know! I'm going to do and say REALLY terrible things to my wife right now and see if I can mentally and emotionally abuse her!"

I grew up in a small town full of nice people, with nice role models, and nice friends and nice sense of community. I realize not everyone else had the same life experiences and/or has the same life philosophies and outlook that I have. 

But for the purposes of this discussion, I know that I aspire to treat people well, despite my occasional mouthiness. And I trust myself to eventually settle with someone who shares my affinity for kindness. 

I trust that I would never find myself in a relationship with someone who constantly moves the target away like a sadist.

Someone who would say: "If you don't tell me you love me once per hour, and rub my shoulders every night before bed, you're hurting me," or "If you don't mow the lawn with horizontal instead of vertical lines, you're hurting me," or "If you don't buy me diamonds every Valentine's Day, you're hurting me," is not someone who fits within my personal boundaries. 

Let's pretend, you had a great engagement, and you were with your partner for, like, three years, and every day was amazing. 

And then, as soon as you said "I do," she totally flipped like a con artist would, and now you realize she's not who you thought she was. She was playing you for nefarious reasons this entire time. 

In such a scenario, I would advocate ending the marriage, and possibly exacting some kind of badass revenge scenario (even though it goes against my kindness thing).

I'm trying to deal in reality, though. In reality, MOST (85%?) of people are just regular, flawed people. They generally mean well, and the mistakes they make are less a deliberate attempt to inflict pain than they are a selfish gesture performed thoughtlessly. 

MOST people get married with the best of intentions, fully desiring to love one another and be faithful for the rest of their lives. And then 5-10 years later, bad things start popping up, and so often, it's kind of hard to describe what happened. 

Our marriages die very slowly. Almost imperceptibly. One little "dish" incident at a time. In both directions between husband and wife as they respond to one another in ways that drive the wedge a little bit further. 

I really think it's this simple: We don't know what we're doing when we leave a "dish" by the sink, or the way we speak to one another, or the choice we make to do or not do something. We inflict pain on one another in various ways accidentally. 

Our best friends don't upset us, so why do our spouses whom we do EVERYTHING for?, we think. Resentment builds. Not in bunches. In trace amounts. 

Then, one thing one day triggers the collapse. 

Boom.

Done.

Because we rolled our eyes and defended ourselves over some crap thing that doesn't matter at all instead of just loving one another enough to respect their wishes and feelings, so long as it wasn't a clear violation of our personal boundaries. 

I think it mostly happens because young people get married and don't know any better. They've never had this sort of thing happen before, because they've always just been kids having fun. That's where the real education needs to happen. 

Since we can't do anything about yesterday, the only thing I know how to do is talk about tomorrow.


----------



## MBTTTR

marduk said:


> I think if you would have said "**** it" to the dishes and focused on the core issues of your marriage, you'd still be married, and she wouldn't care about the dishes.
> 
> You want to know when the small things matter?
> 
> When the big things are broken.


Yes. This exactly. 

The "dishes" thing isn't supposed to contradict that. It's suppose to illustrate it. 

And if you were one of the people who'd been following my story the past couple years, you would have thought that. 

I totally understand how people got hung up on the "dishes" part of all this, given the headline, and their lack of familiarity with the back story.


----------



## ButtPunch

MBTTTR said:


> Yes. This exactly.
> 
> The "dishes" thing isn't supposed to contradict that. It's suppose to illustrate it.
> 
> And if you were one of the people who'd been following my story the past couple years, you would have thought that.
> 
> I totally understand how people got hung up on the "dishes" part of all this, given the headline, and their lack of familiarity with the back story.


Tell us.....What was the core issue that caused your wife to walk away then?


----------



## MBTTTR

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Hi Matt, thanks for posting. I haven't read all of your blog, do you have custody of your son?



Hi, back. My pleasure. Rest assured I'm not accustomed to sparking important marriage discussion. I realize this is what you always do in here. But it's still sort of humbling to see a bunch of people talking about marriage dynamics through the prism of something they read from me. 

To answer your question, my son's mother and I have a 50-percent shared-parenting arrangement. It's very cooperative and damn near friendly. 

She's a great mom. She respects my role as his father, and we work together constantly, both on logistics things like schedules and physical objects or clothes he might need, as well as philosophically when it comes to parenting decisions. 

We all sat together in my kitchen for an hour yesterday talking to our son about something school-related from the past week, EXACTLY as we would have had we still been married. 

Being that we are creeping up on three years removed from the marriage, I'm in a fine place emotionally and mentally to deal with all that. 

I am grateful that I have a peaceful, civil, cooperative relationship with my ex-wife, as opposed to an adversarial one like some of the horror stories I hear where one parent leverages children to inflict pain on the other. 

I can't fathom the depravity one must possess to wield a child as a tool, or to have so much hate in their hearts that they would dedicate time, energy and resources to making a person they once promised to love's life as miserable as possible. 

Maybe I'm just lucky to be wired as I am. But that's not the kind of thing I'm capable of understanding.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ButtPunch said:


> Tell us.....What was the core issue that caused your wife to walk away then?


I don't know if this is true in other people's marriages. In mine, I have a tendency to see patterns where he sees each moment in time as a singular occurrence. So the fact that THIS time he has ignored what I asked him looks like No Big Deal. Geez, get over it already. From my PoV, it is not so much that I want to keep score, but that time after time ignoring what I say gets old. 

For me, this could BE the bigger issue if he did not try so hard NOT to ignore me. He does not succeed a lot. But it means a lot to me that he tries, and allows me to cut him some slack... and... get over it already.


----------



## MBTTTR

NobodySpecial said:


> This is the only bit I disagree with. The stronger one goes first. The one with the capacity and insight goes first. It takes only on to change a dynamic. The other must choose how to respond. Often loving behavior begets loving behavior.


There's no way to capture every single thing I think and feel in a sentence, or an article, or a book, or a lifetime of writing. 

I trust myself. I trust myself to see and hear information, and make a solid judgment if I have enough facts or experience with whatever the situation is. 

I'm not saying, always and forever, men should go first.

I'm saying, in the context of men like me frustrated with their wives because they feel like she's nagging and being unfair over petty things, and responding unreasonably to things like "dishes" sitting out, and who are waiting for their wives to magically snap out of it, and start agreeing with his "correct" Man Opinions; I would like men to try a new tactic.....

Love unselfishly. LISTEN to your wife, and respect the words she's saying even if they don't always make sense. 

Try to put her needs first (with the expectation that she will do the same in return in a healthy, high-functioning marriage).

I'm saying, BE THE CHANGE. 

Love hard. Sacrifice. Give without demanding anything in return.

I believe doing so will bring about magic-like transformations in marriage. 

I believe doing so will see men recognize radical changes in his wife. Really positive ones. And that the trickle down effect of those things will create a new cycle of behavior that perpetuates good things and intimacy building, rather than growing resentment and breakage.

Someone has to go first. 

In a situation like men, for guys like me, we all secretly want to do something heroic. We want to live purposefully. Meaningfully. 

So, love hard. Be a great man. Transform a marriage and be the glue that holds a family together. 

I'm perfectly okay with wives going first if men respond properly.

But that's rarely what I see. I see wives going first. Husbands reacting negatively and defensively because male-female communication can be super hard sometimes. 

And then it gets worse not better. 

It doesn't have to be this way. 

We now know smoking causes cancer, so fewer people smoke. 

If everyone really saw these marriage situations for what they are, fewer people would accidentally ruin their marriages.


----------



## NobodySpecial

MBTTTR said:


> There's no way to capture every single thing I think and feel in a sentence, or an article, or a book, or a lifetime of writing.
> 
> I trust myself. I trust myself to see and hear information, and make a solid judgment if I have enough facts or experience with whatever the situation is.
> 
> I'm not saying, always and forever, men should go first.
> 
> I'm saying, in the context of men like me frustrated with their wives because they feel like she's nagging and being unfair over petty things, and responding unreasonably to things like "dishes" sitting out, and who are waiting for their wives to magically snap out of it, and start agreeing with his "correct" Man Opinions; I would like men to try a new tactic.....
> 
> Love unselfishly. LISTEN to your wife, and respect the words she's saying even if they don't always make sense.
> 
> Try to put her needs first (with the expectation that she will do the same in return in a healthy, high-functioning marriage).
> 
> I'm saying, BE THE CHANGE.
> 
> Love hard. Sacrifice. Give without demanding anything in return.
> 
> I believe doing so will bring about magic-like transformations in marriage.
> 
> I believe doing so will see men recognize radical changes in his wife. Really positive ones. And that the trickle down effect of those things will create a new cycle of behavior that perpetuates good things and intimacy building, rather than growing resentment and breakage.
> 
> Someone has to go first.
> 
> In a situation like men, for guys like me, we all secretly want to do something heroic. We want to live purposefully. Meaningfully.
> 
> So, love hard. Be a great man. Transform a marriage and be the glue that holds a family together.
> 
> I'm perfectly okay with wives going first if men respond properly.
> 
> But that's rarely what I see. I see wives going first. Husbands reacting negatively and defensively because male-female communication can be super hard sometimes.
> 
> And then it gets worse not better.
> 
> It doesn't have to be this way.
> 
> We now know smoking causes cancer, so fewer people smoke.
> 
> If everyone really saw these marriage situations for what they are, fewer people would accidentally ruin their marriages.


I think you are seeing this through a man lens because you are a man. If you like your target audience to be men, then as an author, that is your prerogative. From the standpoint of this forum, I don't see this issue being a gender issue. Right fighting instead of seeking understanding is not a gender specific trait. Men are absolutely NOT more likely to fail to understand woman speak any more than women will fail to understand man speak. Women who wait for their men to "get" this are stuck with no opportunity to change their lot if their marriages. Yes, men COULD and SHOULD understand that women communicate with words. And if they do or they don't, women CAN and SHOULD understand that men speak through actions.


----------



## Marduk

EleGirl said:


> What is confusing me is this assumption that when a woman asks her husband to meet her needs, that it is just her demanding that he prove his love for her by doing everything that she wants any time she wants. Why the assumption that this is what women want?
> 
> Do we make the same assumption when a man asks that his wife meet some needs of his?


My wife sure laughs off my eccentricities with ease.

I don't think this is a gender issue.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

mbtttr said:


> there's no way to capture every single thing i think and feel in a sentence, or an article, or a book, or a lifetime of writing.
> 
> I trust myself. I trust myself to see and hear information, and make a solid judgment if i have enough facts or experience with whatever the situation is.
> 
> *i'm not saying, always and forever, men should go first.*
> 
> i'm saying, in the context of men like me frustrated with their wives because they feel like she's nagging and being unfair over petty things, and responding unreasonably to things like "dishes" sitting out, and who are waiting for their wives to magically snap out of it, and start agreeing with his "correct" man opinions; i would like men to try a new tactic.....
> 
> Love unselfishly. Listen to your wife, and respect the words she's saying even if they don't always make sense.
> 
> Try to put her needs first (with the expectation that she will do the same in return in a healthy, high-functioning marriage).
> 
> I'm saying, be the change.
> 
> Love hard. Sacrifice. Give without demanding anything in return.
> 
> I believe doing so will bring about magic-like transformations in marriage.
> 
> I believe doing so will see men recognize radical changes in his wife. Really positive ones. And that the trickle down effect of those things will create a new cycle of behavior that perpetuates good things and intimacy building, rather than growing resentment and breakage.
> 
> Someone has to go first.
> 
> In a situation like men, for guys like me, we all secretly want to do something heroic. We want to live purposefully. Meaningfully.
> 
> So, love hard. Be a great man. Transform a marriage and be the glue that holds a family together.
> 
> I'm perfectly okay with wives going first if men respond properly.
> 
> But that's rarely what i see. I see wives going first. Husbands reacting negatively and defensively because male-female communication can be super hard sometimes.
> 
> And then it gets worse not better.
> 
> It doesn't have to be this way.
> 
> We now know smoking causes cancer, so fewer people smoke.
> 
> If everyone really saw these marriage situations for what they are, fewer people would accidentally ruin their marriages.


thank you!!!


----------



## Marduk

soccermom2three said:


> You still think it's about the dish,lol.


No, I don't think it's about the dish.

I think the problem is that it's not about the dish, and yet it's about the dish.

In other words, there's a giant elephant in the room, and what comes out is irritation about the dish.


----------



## Marduk

MBTTTR said:


> This is a fair question. And it's the one I'm TERRIFIED to potentially face whenever I find myself in a new serious, long-term relationship.
> 
> Here's how I'm hoping to to address it proactively.
> 
> I'm going to very clearly state my boundaries, and have a bunch of conversations about these types of moments over several months and probably years with my significant other.
> 
> We will both have a long track record of respecting one another's boundaries and communicating effectively before I ever agree to marry again. Especially with my child involved (and possibly children she might have).
> 
> If there is a repeated pattern of anger and sadness and fighting over things in the way I remember them happening in my marriage, that will be the indicator I need to not sign the dotted line for the rest of my life.
> 
> I trust myself to not be with someone who would be ridiculous. I know what you're talking about.
> 
> The VAST majority of the time I hurt my wife's feelings (I mean, damn near 100-percent) it was done accidentally. I never thought to myself: "I know! I'm going to do and say REALLY terrible things to my wife right now and see if I can mentally and emotionally abuse her!"
> 
> I grew up in a small town full of nice people, with nice role models, and nice friends and nice sense of community. I realize not everyone else had the same life experiences and/or has the same life philosophies and outlook that I have.
> 
> But for the purposes of this discussion, I know that I aspire to treat people well, despite my occasional mouthiness. And I trust myself to eventually settle with someone who shares my affinity for kindness.
> 
> I trust that I would never find myself in a relationship with someone who constantly moves the target away like a sadist.
> 
> Someone who would say: "If you don't tell me you love me once per hour, and rub my shoulders every night before bed, you're hurting me," or "If you don't mow the lawn with horizontal instead of vertical lines, you're hurting me," or "If you don't buy me diamonds every Valentine's Day, you're hurting me," is not someone who fits within my personal boundaries.
> 
> Let's pretend, you had a great engagement, and you were with your partner for, like, three years, and every day was amazing.
> 
> And then, as soon as you said "I do," she totally flipped like a con artist would, and now you realize she's not who you thought she was. She was playing you for nefarious reasons this entire time.
> 
> In such a scenario, I would advocate ending the marriage, and possibly exacting some kind of badass revenge scenario (even though it goes against my kindness thing).
> 
> I'm trying to deal in reality, though. In reality, MOST (85%?) of people are just regular, flawed people. They generally mean well, and the mistakes they make are less a deliberate attempt to inflict pain than they are a selfish gesture performed thoughtlessly.
> 
> MOST people get married with the best of intentions, fully desiring to love one another and be faithful for the rest of their lives. And then 5-10 years later, bad things start popping up, and so often, it's kind of hard to describe what happened.


Up to this point, I think what you say is brilliant.


> Our marriages die very slowly. Almost imperceptibly. One little "dish" incident at a time. In both directions between husband and wife as they respond to one another in ways that drive the wedge a little bit further.
> 
> I really think it's this simple: We don't know what we're doing when we leave a "dish" by the sink, or the way we speak to one another, or the choice we make to do or not do something. We inflict pain on one another in various ways accidentally.
> 
> Our best friends don't upset us, so why do our spouses whom we do EVERYTHING for?, we think. Resentment builds. Not in bunches. In trace amounts.
> 
> Then, one thing one day triggers the collapse.
> 
> Boom.
> 
> Done.
> 
> Because we rolled our eyes and defended ourselves over some crap thing that doesn't matter at all instead of just loving one another enough to respect their wishes and feelings, so long as it wasn't a clear violation of our personal boundaries.
> 
> I think it mostly happens because young people get married and don't know any better. They've never had this sort of thing happen before, because they've always just been kids having fun. That's where the real education needs to happen.
> 
> Since we can't do anything about yesterday, the only thing I know how to do is talk about tomorrow.


And this is where you lose me. Because here's the thing about people: they're ****ing annoying. Even super awesome people.

My best friends piss me off all the time. And yet they're my best friends because they're ****ing awesome people.

Same goes with my wife. She's a giant supermassive black hole of annoyingness and frustration. And yet I'm with her. Because for the 1% of giant annoying, she's 99% awesome and generally knows what exactly to do on a regular basis to wipe away the annoying crud that builds up like mildew in the shower.

People can't help but be annoying. You'll never find someone that doesn't secretly annoy you because of the way they blow their nose or sip their soup or cheer for their favorite team or whatever.

So chasing that is chasing a fool's errand. Just be good people, and put the work in to wipe away the crud that will always build up in the shower every once in a while.

While resentment over stupid stuff was building in your marriage, how often did you sweep your wife off her feet? How often did you do things that made her brag about you to her friends? How often did you take her breath away for no reason?


----------



## Marduk

MBTTTR said:


> Yes. This exactly.
> 
> The "dishes" thing isn't supposed to contradict that. It's suppose to illustrate it.
> 
> And if you were one of the people who'd been following my story the past couple years, you would have thought that.
> 
> I totally understand how people got hung up on the "dishes" part of all this, given the headline, and their lack of familiarity with the back story.


You know you contradict yourself all the time, and then hide behind skillful writing, right?

Did you do that in your marriage, too?


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> This is the only bit I disagree with. The stronger one goes first. The one with the capacity and insight goes first. It takes only on to change a dynamic. The other must choose how to respond. Often loving behavior begets loving behavior.


I think the one that has a problem goes first. Because most problems benefit one person to the detriment of someone else. 

In this case, it should have been his wife.

Who also should have done some introspection about it to get at what the problem really was.


----------



## OpenWindows

Marduk, is it possible that you're having trouble understanding his point, simply because you and your wife wouldn't behave like that? That maybe you just can't identify with this situation because it doesn't fit into your experience?


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> I think the one that has a problem goes first. Because most problems benefit one person to the detriment of someone else.
> 
> In this case, it should have been his wife.
> 
> Who also should have done some introspection about it to get at what the problem really was.


She did go first, and did tell him what the problem was (not just the glass, but the disrespect). He didn't believe her. No matter what she said or did, nothing could be fixed until he believed her problem was real.

He's asking people to believe their partner's complaints.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> I think the one that has a problem goes first. Because most problems benefit one person to the detriment of someone else.



This is constant with my DH's attitude, so worried about blame, shoulds and right, that the possibilities escape him. Why "should" she? The entire point is the ONLY person who can tell ME what I SHOULD do is ME. I can think about what someone like the author says and apply to ME. I can sit around and wait for what my husband "should" do until I am purple. She "Should" do what she deems right. A person reading the author will be taking away the right message, in my view, if they think what can *I* do vs what can I hope, expect, wait for ... my spouse to do.


----------



## just got it 55

I have been working on improving my end of our marriage of 37 years since my join date 3/13.
I started this in earnest because I was sure my wife would walk away .She would have been justified to do so.

She never asked me for help and to me, she would try to prove every day that she could do just fine without me, and being the PA ahole that I was I was inclined to let her.

After 3 years of making changes in my role as her husband the difference is stark to say the least. Last year I asked her to do the love language test with me and the scores were no surprise to me on her end but mine were.Her # 1 was acts of service.So by not giving her the support she needed I was hurting her and our marriage

The changes I made were not in words but actions and never made announcements they were on my list of goals to improve my performance as her husband. If I had I’m sure she would think “Just Words” I have heard them before and nothing would be different.

It occurred to me that she didn’t ask for help because she could not trust me to carry out the task. For example she would never have left the DW for me to unload she would just do it no matter how much she had going on.

Now she can feel free to leave it seems like a small thing but it shows my continued improvements have built trust in me being a partner willing to share the responsibilities of running (our household).

And you know what? I thanked her for that. To me that was a big milestone. After a few years of finishing home improvement projects (and they were substantial) I believe I have repaired that which was lacking in my role as husband and partner.

All the hard work has been done raising our four children and completing their educations. There was a time when I worked two jobs 60 to 70 hours per week to provide for them. My wife was a SAHM for 10 years until she was able to re-enter the workforce and work her 40 hours as well as the bulk of the house work.

As time went on and I built my career my work hours slowly declined as my wages increased. But I never made the adjustment to pick up my end of the domestic responsibilities. 

Now we share most everything.

Everything about my marriage is better because I believe my wife believes in me.And most importantly she trusts me

55


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> I think the one that has a problem goes first.* Because most problems benefit one person to the detriment of someone else. *




AFAIC that is backasward thinking. In a marriage, what benefits one, ultimately, benefits them both if they can choose to see it that way. The idea that for one to "win" something, the other needs to lose is a yucky place to be. I would not want to be in that mind set.


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> This is constant with my DH's attitude, so worried about blame, shoulds and right, that the possibilities escape him. Why "should" she? The entire point is the ONLY person who can tell ME what I SHOULD do is ME. I can think about what someone like the author says and apply to ME. I can sit around and wait for what my husband "should" do until I am purple. She "Should" do what she deems right. A person reading the author will be taking away the right message, in my view, if they think what can *I* do vs what can I hope, expect, wait for ... my spouse to do.


You say, " the ONLY person who can tell ME what I SHOULD do is ME."

Does this mean you shouldn't be trying to tell your husband what he should do?


----------



## ButtPunch

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/316129-im-not-great-housewife.html

Ladies read this thread that just started and give me your thoughts. I see it as this thread but the genders reversed. 
How do you see it?


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> She did go first, and did tell him what the problem was (not just the glass, but the disrespect). He didn't believe her. No matter what she said or did, nothing could be fixed until he believed her problem was real.
> 
> He's asking people to believe their partner's complaints.


Just so I'm clear, do you mean the part where she tells him she doesn't feel respected because of the small things?


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> This is constant with my DH's attitude, so worried about blame, shoulds and right, that the possibilities escape him. Why "should" she? The entire point is the ONLY person who can tell ME what I SHOULD do is ME. I can think about what someone like the author says and apply to ME. I can sit around and wait for what my husband "should" do until I am purple. She "Should" do what she deems right. A person reading the author will be taking away the right message, in my view, if they think what can *I* do vs what can I hope, expect, wait for ... my spouse to do.


I'm sorry, you lost me. I mean, I agree with what you're saying, I'm just struggling to connect it.


----------



## alte Dame

just got it 55 said:


> I have been working on improving my end of our marriage of 37 years since my join date 3/13.
> I started this in earnest because I was sure my wife would walk away .She would have been justified to do so.
> 
> She never asked me for help and to me, she would try to prove every day that she could do just fine without me, and being the PA ahole that I was I was inclined to let her.
> 
> After 3 years of making changes in my role as her husband the difference is stark to say the least. Last year I asked her to do the love language test with me and the scores were no surprise to me on her end but mine were.Her # 1 was acts of service.So by not giving her the support she needed I was hurting her and our marriage
> 
> The changes I made were not in words but actions and never made announcements they were on my list of goals to improve my performance as her husband. If I had I’m sure she would think “Just Words” I have heard them before and nothing would be different.
> 
> It occurred to me that she didn’t ask for help because she could not trust me to carry out the task. For example she would never have left the DW for me to unload she would just do it no matter how much she had going on.
> 
> Now she can feel free to leave it seems like a small thing but it shows my continued improvements have built trust in me being a partner willing to share the responsibilities of running (our household).
> 
> And you know what? I thanked her for that. To me that was a big milestone. After a few years of finishing home improvement projects (and they were substantial) I believe I have repaired that which was lacking in my role as husband and partner.
> 
> All the hard work has been done raising our four children and completing their educations. There was a time when I worked two jobs 60 to 70 hours per week to provide for them. My wife was a SAHM for 10 years until she was able to re-enter the workforce and work her 40 hours as well as the bulk of the house work.
> 
> As time went on and I built my career my work hours slowly declined as my wages increased. But I never made the adjustment to pick up my end of the domestic responsibilities.
> 
> Now we share most everything.
> 
> Everything about my marriage is better because I believe my wife believes in me.And most importantly she trusts me
> 
> 55


This is great to read, 55.

For me, so much of my anguish in my marriage has been because of what I perceive to be a useless face-off with my H. It doesn't matter what is important to me. If I express it, his reaction has always been defensive. He either overrides my judgment with his own, or has a ' who does she think she is' reaction.

This pervaded everything. If I planned a Saturday of fun with our children, he was churlish and pissed off because I 'was making decisions and then forcing him into it.' If I told him it was important to me that he be in town for my birthday because my mother's funeral was on my bday when I was 22 and the day was hard for me, he would scoff and tell me I'm being ridiculous. We could celebrate on another day - no need to go skiing on a different weekend.

I am pretty much the opposite of a nagging wife. I'm the competent, takes-care-of-things wife. I have my career and was always around to raise our children. I have never expected him to do things around the house just based on my sensibility. If anything, I'm the 'everything is relative' queen.

So, for me, the 'cup' analogy is very real and meaningful. Always feeling like your spouse is dug in against you because.....he's dug in against you.... for no other reason than to oppose you....this is tiring and unnecessary. I've been done with it for a long time.

I want my H to see what 55 has seen. I'm my H's partner, not his adversary, maid, or mother. We are working on it. Empathy from both our ends is key for us.

I know that he has his corollary with me. Commenting on my post here with a 'but don't you do the same, AD?' isn't a counterargument to me. We have a dynamic, to be sure, and I have my own side of the street to take care of, but neither of these things neutralizes my experience and feelings about the 'cup' issue.

And I absolutely believe that this is a gender issue insofar as how this plays out in a marriage.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> AFAIC that is backasward thinking. In a marriage, what benefits one, ultimately, benefits them both if they can choose to see it that way. The idea that for one to "win" something, the other needs to lose is a yucky place to be. I would not want to be in that mind set.


Exactly.

There's actually three sides in a relationship: my side, your side, and the meta view of the relationship as a whole.

My premise is that when one side slacks, it benefits them (temporarily) to the deficit of the other. 

And maybe you fall into a rut, or maybe you think it's reasonable because of something else you do in the relationship. Or maybe you're just a slacker, or have odd expectations of a relationship.


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> Just so I'm clear, do you mean the part where she tells him she doesn't feel respected because of the small things?


Specifically, I am talking about this -

** [Wives] don’t think it’s possible that their husbands don’t know how their actions make her feel because she has told him, sometimes with tears in her eyes, over and over and over and over again how upset it makes her and how much it hurts. **

The fact that he thinks it's a small thing does not make that true to her. He is looking at a small glass, and she is looking at a big pattern. When she points out the big pattern, he's still seeing the small glass and not believing how the big pattern affects her, because it doesn't make sense to him.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/316129-im-not-great-housewife.html
> 
> Ladies read this thread that just started and give me your thoughts. I see it as this thread but the genders reversed.
> How do you see it?


If the husband has said he has fallen out of love with her, then I think he may become a WAH. If she does not want that to happen, she will have to assume leadership of the relationship. She seems open to that. 

Whoever does not want to lose the relationship needs to become the leader, imo.


----------



## jld

alte Dame said:


> And I absolutely believe that this is a gender issue insofar as how this plays out in a marriage.


Could you elaborate on this, please, aD?


----------



## Marduk

alte Dame said:


> This is great to read, 55.
> 
> For me, so much of my anguish in my marriage has been because of what I perceive to be a useless face-off with my H. It doesn't matter what is important to me. If I express it, his reaction has always been defensive. He either overrides my judgment with his own, or has a ' who does she think she is' reaction.
> 
> This pervaded everything. If I planned a Saturday of fun with our children, he was churlish and pissed off because I 'was making decisions and then forcing him into it.' *If I told him it was important to me that he be in town for my birthday because my mother's funeral was on my bday when I was 22 and the day was hard for me, he would scoff and tell me I'm being ridiculous.* We could celebrate on another day - no need to go skiing on a different weekend.
> 
> I am pretty much the opposite of a nagging wife. I'm the competent, takes-care-of-things wife. I have my career and was always around to raise our children. I have never expected him to do things around the house just based on my sensibility. If anything, I'm the 'everything is relative' queen.
> 
> So, for me, the 'cup' analogy is very real and meaningful. Always feeling like your spouse is dug in against you because.....he's dug in against you.... for no other reason than to oppose you....this is tiring and unnecessary. I've been done with it for a long time.
> 
> I want my H to see what 55 has seen. I'm my H's partner, not his adversary, maid, or mother. We are working on it. Empathy from both our ends is key for us.
> 
> I know that he has his corollary with me. Commenting on my post here with a 'but don't you do the same, AD?' isn't a counterargument to me. We have a dynamic, to be sure, and I have my own side of the street to take care of, but neither of these things neutralizes my experience and feelings about the 'cup' issue.
> 
> And I absolutely believe that this is a gender issue insofar as how this plays out in a marriage.


I'm slipping a gear here.

And you may be absolutely right to do what you did, but am I reading this right -- you're resentful because you have something that seems giant sitting in the middle of the relationship -- your birthday coinciding with the loss of your mother.

And sufficient resentment that you don't want to remind him of that, and yet resent him because he fails to deliver on it?

How is that going to be a path for resolution?

Why not say "Husband, do you realize that my mother died on my birthday when I was 22 and it's extremely meaningful to me to do X and Y and for you to support me on this?"

I mean, I'm an avid skier, and yet I'd have trouble rationalizing how that wouldn't be a reasonable ask of your spouse.

And if he refused to respect that, then there's an opportunity for a difficult yet meaningful conversation about respect when it's not about minor things.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Exactly.
> 
> There's actually three sides in a relationship: my side, your side, and the meta view of the relationship as a whole.


No this is where you and I fundamentally different. There is not meta view of the relationship as a whole. Relationships are filtered through perspective. The relationship IS what we view it to be. So viewing it to be a competition sport is fundamentally dangerous. When he wins, *I* win. When I win, *he* wins. Then we both win.



> My premise is that when one side slacks, it benefits them (temporarily) to the deficit of the other.


So what? I mean, really what possible use is this supposed fact? Who is the arbiter of this supposed benefit?



> And maybe you fall into a rut, or maybe you think it's reasonable because of something else you do in the relationship. Or maybe you're just a slacker, or have odd expectations of a relationship.


You are just so stuck on measuring as if there is an objective way to measure how someone feels about their relationship and their respect within it. Maybe one or the other FEELS some way and they would gain benefit from having their partner empathize, respect and care about those feelings rather than having a yard stick held up to them for some supposed ability to judge their reasonableness.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> Specifically, I am talking about this -
> 
> ** [Wives] don’t think it’s possible that their husbands don’t know how their actions make her feel because she has told him, sometimes with tears in her eyes, over and over and over and over again how upset it makes her and how much it hurts. **
> 
> The fact that he thinks it's a small thing does not make that true to her. He is looking at a small glass, and she is looking at a big pattern. When she points out the big pattern, he's still seeing the small glass and not believing how the big pattern affects her, because it doesn't make sense to him.


OK, I'm going to assume you're female, and apologize in advance if you're not.

Let's say you're the wife with a husband that does small stuff like this that pisses you off.

And yet he does other giant things in the relationship to make you very, very happy. 

Are the small things going to still be an issue?

Now, conversely, if he starts doing some of the small things, and none of the big things, are you going to be happy?

Or are you going to find yet another small thing because there will always be small things?


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> No this is where you and I fundamentally different. There is not meta view of the relationship as a whole. Relationships are filtered through perspective. The relationship IS what we view it to be. So viewing it to be a competition sport is fundamentally dangerous. When he wins, *I* win. When I win, *he* wins. Then we both win.


How is this functionally different than the meta view?

Because that's kind of what I was trying to say, maybe you said it better.


> So what? I mean, really what possible use is this supposed fact? Who is the arbiter of this supposed benefit?


Here's what I mean.

If I leave my dirty underwear on the floor for my wife to pick up, I get the benefit of not having to do it, to my wife's detriment of having to do it.

That's what I meant. 



> You are just so stuck on measuring as if there is an objective way to measure how someone feels about their relationship and their respect within it. Maybe one or the other FEELS some way and they would gain benefit from having their partner empathize, respect and care about those feelings rather than having a yard stick held up to them for some supposed ability to judge their reasonableness.


True enough.

I guess I'm coming at it with the lens of looking for a partner on the big things in life, not someone who will not irritate me with the small things.

Maybe because I've never _not_ had a partner in my life that didn't irritate me in innumerable small ways.


----------



## OpenWindows

I'm kind of surprised this phrase hasn't come up in this thread, so I'll be the one to say it...

Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?


We don't get to define big and small for our partners. And if something is big to my partner, and small to me, then why on earth shouldn't I accommodate him? That's what we do when we care about people!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

alte Dame said:


> This is great to read, 55.
> 
> For me, so much of my anguish in my marriage has been because of what I perceive to be a useless face-off with my H. It doesn't matter what is important to me. If I express it, his reaction has always been defensive. He either overrides my judgment with his own, or has a ' who does she think she is' reaction.
> 
> This pervaded everything. If I planned a Saturday of fun with our children, he was churlish and pissed off because I 'was making decisions and then forcing him into it.' If I told him it was important to me that he be in town for my birthday because my mother's funeral was on my bday when I was 22 and the day was hard for me, he would scoff and tell me I'm being ridiculous. We could celebrate on another day - no need to go skiing on a different weekend.
> 
> I am pretty much the opposite of a nagging wife. I'm the competent, takes-care-of-things wife. I have my career and was always around to raise our children. I have never expected him to do things around the house just based on my sensibility. If anything, I'm the 'everything is relative' queen.
> 
> So, for me, the 'cup' analogy is very real and meaningful. Always feeling like your spouse is dug in against you because.....he's dug in against you.... for no other reason than to oppose you....this is tiring and unnecessary. I've been done with it for a long time.
> 
> I want my H to see what 55 has seen. I'm my H's partner, not his adversary, maid, or mother. We are working on it. Empathy from both our ends is key for us.
> 
> I know that he has his corollary with me. Commenting on my post here with a 'but don't you do the same, AD?' isn't a counterargument to me. We have a dynamic, to be sure, and I have my own side of the street to take care of, but neither of these things neutralizes my experience and feelings about the 'cup' issue.
> 
> And I absolutely believe that this is a gender issue insofar as how this plays out in a marriage.


This is where boundaries started for me... your husband is boorish

And you are allowing it.

THAT is precisely where I put my foot down and told him fix it or get out. Mine took it to an abusive level so I HAD to go hardline, but nip it in the bud is my advice to you.


----------



## just got it 55

alte Dame said:


> This is great to read, 55.
> 
> For me, so much of my anguish in my marriage has been because of what I perceive to be a useless face-off with my H. It doesn't matter what is important to me. If I express it, his reaction has always been defensive. He either overrides my judgment with his own, or has a ' who does she think she is' reaction.
> 
> This pervaded everything. If I planned a Saturday of fun with our children, he was churlish and pissed off because I 'was making decisions and then forcing him into it.' If I told him it was important to me that he be in town for my birthday because my mother's funeral was on my bday when I was 22 and the day was hard for me, he would scoff and tell me I'm being ridiculous. We could celebrate on another day - no need to go skiing on a different weekend.
> 
> I am pretty much the opposite of a nagging wife. I'm the competent, takes-care-of-things wife. I have my career and was always around to raise our children. I have never expected him to do things around the house just based on my sensibility. If anything, I'm the 'everything is relative' queen.
> 
> So, for me, the 'cup' analogy is very real and meaningful. Always feeling like your spouse is dug in against you because.....he's dug in against you.... for no other reason than to oppose you....this is tiring and unnecessary. I've been done with it for a long time.
> 
> I want my H to see what 55 has seen. I'm my H's partner, not his adversary, maid, or mother. We are working on it. Empathy from both our ends is key for us.
> 
> I know that he has his corollary with me. Commenting on my post here with a 'but don't you do the same, AD?' isn't a counterargument to me. We have a dynamic, to be sure, and I have my own side of the street to take care of, but neither of these things neutralizes my experience and feelings about the 'cup' issue.
> 
> And I absolutely believe that this is a gender issue insofar as how this plays out in a marriage.


It took me 100 years and the fear of losing the girl I have loved since I was 16 years old No time to be stubborn.

She said she would not have walked but I think she was kidding herself I gave her 75 K in her hand to do it (Money I owed her from her parents estate ) If she was going to do it that would have been the time I wanted to know for sure what was in her mind not in her heart.

Her heart gave me the answer I needed

55

55


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> I'm kind of surprised this phrase hasn't come up in this thread, so I'll be the one to say it...
> 
> Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?
> 
> 
> We don't get to define big and small for our partners. And if something is big to my partner, and small to me, then why on earth shouldn't I accommodate him? That's what we do when we care about people!


If I have to pretend to be wrong when I know I'm not to keep someone happy, I won't love them for long.

I have been down that path more than once.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

MBTTTR said:


> Hi, back. My pleasure. Rest assured I'm not accustomed to sparking important marriage discussion. I realize this is what you always do in here. But it's still sort of humbling to see a bunch of people talking about marriage dynamics through the prism of something they read from me.
> 
> To answer your question, my son's mother and I have a 50-percent shared-parenting arrangement. It's very cooperative and damn near friendly.
> 
> She's a great mom. She respects my role as his father, and we work together constantly, both on logistics things like schedules and physical objects or clothes he might need, as well as philosophically when it comes to parenting decisions.
> 
> We all sat together in my kitchen for an hour yesterday talking to our son about something school-related from the past week, EXACTLY as we would have had we still been married.
> 
> Being that we are creeping up on three years removed from the marriage, I'm in a fine place emotionally and mentally to deal with all that.
> 
> I am grateful that I have a peaceful, civil, cooperative relationship with my ex-wife, as opposed to an adversarial one like some of the horror stories I hear where one parent leverages children to inflict pain on the other.
> 
> I can't fathom the depravity one must possess to wield a child as a tool, or to have so much hate in their hearts that they would dedicate time, energy and resources to making a person they once promised to love's life as miserable as possible.
> 
> Maybe I'm just lucky to be wired as I am. But that's not the kind of thing I'm capable of understanding.


Thanks for clearing that up, TBF you sound like you are still in love with her and would take her back at the drop of a hat


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> How is this functionally different than the meta view?


Because in order for a view to exist (the meta view) there needs to be someone to perceive it. You WANT there to be some objective view that IS right. There just isn't.



> Because that's kind of what I was trying to say, maybe you said it better.
> 
> 
> Here's what I mean.
> 
> If I leave my dirty underwear on the floor for my wife to pick up, I get the benefit of not having to do it, to my wife's detriment of having to do it.
> 
> That's what I meant.


reductio ad absurdum. Have fun with that.




> True enough.
> 
> I guess I'm coming at it with the lens of looking for a partner on the big things in life, not someone who will not irritate me with the small things.


Which is fine. Until YOU decide for HER what the "small things" are. And she kicks you to the curb because she is different from you. And you continue for the next decades of your life really actually thinking it had anything to do with dishware.


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> OK, I'm going to assume you're female, and apologize in advance if you're not.
> 
> Let's say you're the wife with a husband that does small stuff like this that pisses you off.
> 
> And yet he does other giant things in the relationship to make you very, very happy.
> 
> Are the small things going to still be an issue?
> 
> Now, conversely, if he starts doing some of the small things, and none of the big things, are you going to be happy?
> 
> Or are you going to find yet another small thing because there will always be small things?


If he does things I consider big, then I let the small stuff slide. The author wasn't doing her big things. My XH wasn't doing my big things. That's why we're both divorced.

My BF does my big things, so I let the small things slide. And if he doesnt get why something is big to me, he does it anyway, because he believes me when I tell him I'm hurting. He doesn't question if I'm entitled to feel that way. So all those small things look tiny because I feel respected.

When I feel respected, the impact of the cup on my feeling of respect is a drop in an empty bucket. When there's a pattern of disrespect, that drop can cause the full bucket to start overflowing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> If I have to pretend to be wrong when I know I'm not to keep someone happy, I won't love them for long.


What does it mean to be wrong in a relationship. Wrong is killing people. Wrong is torturing puppies. We ALL have our NUTs. But beyond that, what is wrong?


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Because in order for a view to exist (the meta view) there needs to be someone to perceive it. You WANT there to be some objective view that IS right. There just isn't.


Ah, I get what you're saying now.



> reductio ad absurdum. Have fun with that.


I don't think it's that. I think it's very easy to be lazy, and that's the thinking (or lack there of) that goes into these problems, right?



> Which is fine. Until YOU decide for HER what the "small things" are. And she kicks you to the curb because she is different from you. And you continue for the next decades of your life really actually thinking it had anything to do with dishware.


If after everything that I've done for her, and always do for her, she does so... Then that's the way it will be and I'll have a clear head about it. 

Have you ever lived with a truly unreasonable person? One that demands that everything go their way, and fixates on the small stuff?

I have found that those people unsurprisingly miss the giant problems.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> If he does things I consider big, then I let the small stuff slide. The author wasn't doing her big things. My XH wasn't doing my big things. That's why we're both divorced.
> 
> My BF does my big things, so I let the small things slide. And if he doesnt get why something is big to me, he does it anyway, because he believes me when I tell him I'm hurting. He doesn't question if I'm entitled to feel that way. So all those small things look tiny because I feel respected.
> 
> When I feel respected, the impact of the cup on my feeling of respect is a drop in an empty bucket. When there's a pattern of disrespect, that drop can cause the full bucket to start overflowing.


Exactly my point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> If I have to pretend to be wrong when I know I'm not to keep someone happy, I won't love them for long.
> 
> I have been down that path more than once.


And as long as you are with someone that will accommodate your need to be right, then good enough.

Matt's wife got tired of that.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> What does it mean to be wrong in a relationship. Wrong is killing people. Wrong is torturing puppies. We ALL have our NUTs. But beyond that, what is wrong?


Wrong is living life contrary to your values, and letting other people define what success is. 

That's what wrong is to me. 

Many of the core problems and unhappiness I've had stem from either doing something I know in my heart was wrong, or more usually... when I let a loved one judge for me what success or failure is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

marduk said:


> Why not say "Husband, do you realize that my mother died on my birthday when I was 22 and it's extremely meaningful to me to do X and Y and for you to support me on this?"


How about I say this every year for 30+ years? How about everyone in my life who knows me knows this about me? How about I say it AGAIN this year, not in a threatening, resentful or (gasp!) nagging way? How about my H looks at me this year and says, 'I guess I never realized that'? How about now he knows it because he sees how he has hurt me in this over the years? Maybe? One can hope, right? How about being married to a clear narcissist is filled with these big 'cup' moments?

And antepenultimately, how about he can remember details of so many things, but doesn't remember things that are important to me, big and small?

Finally, how about he's suddenly getting it because, like 55, he's worried that he has a WAW on his hands?


----------



## jld

alte Dame said:


> How about I say this every year for 30+ years? How about everyone in my life who knows me knows this about me? How about I say it AGAIN this year, not in a threatening, resentful or (gasp!) nagging way? How about my H looks at me this year and says, 'I guess I never realized that'? How about now he knows it because he sees how he has hurt me in this over the years? Maybe? One can hope, right? How about being married to a clear narcissist is filled with these big 'cup' moments?
> 
> And antepenultimately, how about he can remember details of so many things, but doesn't remember things that are important to me, big and small?
> 
> Finally, how about he's suddenly getting it because, like 55, *he's worried that he has a WAW on his hands?*


That is what usually wakes them up. Pity it takes action and not words to get them there.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> That is what usually wakes them up. Pity it takes action and not words to get them there.


Have you ever threatened to walk away? if so do you do it often?


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> If I have to pretend to be wrong when I know I'm not to keep someone happy, I won't love them for long.
> 
> I have been down that path more than once.


You don't have to pretend to be wrong. It's fine to say, "Honey, I think you're weird... but your happiness is important to me, so I'll do what I can."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@jld, Neither action NOR words of just me moved my mother. It took the words AND action of almost the entire family to start impacting her selfishness. She is just now coming around after seven years and treating me with kindness. Prior to now, she not only cut me out of her life, but also my new born, her ONLY grandson when he was four months old. So it's not just men who can be hard to move. It's ANYONE who is so dug down deep into their selfishness that they can't see the destruction they are causing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Ah, I get what you're saying now.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's that. I think it's very easy to be lazy, and that's the thinking (or lack there of) that goes into these problems, right?


No? I mean that is not what I am talking about. You seem to be talking about any damned thing that allows you to be right. What are you trying to achieve with this discussion? An excuse to be lazy? Your points are all over the place.




> If after everything that I've done for her, and always do for her, she does so... Then that's the way it will be and I'll have a clear head about it.
> 
> Have you ever lived with a truly unreasonable person? One that demands that everything go their way, and fixates on the small stuff?
> 
> I have found that those people unsurprisingly miss the giant problems.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wonder why you continue to talk about a problem on a thread that is not about that problem. Do you really fail to understand the topic?


----------



## NobodySpecial

OpenWindows said:


> You don't have to pretend to be wrong. It's fine to say, "Honey, I think you're weird... but your happiness is important to me, so I'll do what I can."


Works for me.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> No? I mean that is not what I am talking about. You seem to be talking about any damned thing that allows you to be right. What are you trying to achieve with this discussion? An excuse to be lazy? Your points are all over the place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why you continue to talk about a problem on a thread that is not about that problem. Do you really fail to understand the topic?



I'm not sure why y'all are missing each other... you are both saying the same thing... just from two different angles.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm not sure why y'all are missing each other... you are both saying the same thing... just from two different angles.


I actually don't think so.


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> Exactly my point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So your point is that this won't happen in a balanced relationship? If so, I agree... But a balanced relationship is not what we're talking about here.


----------



## SadSamIAm

OpenWindows said:


> You don't have to pretend to be wrong. It's fine to say, "Honey, I think you're weird... but your happiness is important to me, so I'll do what I can."


No that is definitely not fine to say! 

That would piss my wife off. She doesn't want me to think she is weird. She wants me to value what she values.

The hardest part is that can change from day to day. One day a glass on the counter is a major issue. Then next day, the kitchen can be left a mess all day.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually don't think so.


Well, then one of you needs to make it clear and get to the point because I'm getting dizzy over here. LOL


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Have you ever threatened to walk away? if so do you do it often?


In a serious way?

I have thought it twice. The second time was more serious and produced action on his part. All of a sudden I was a priority, my ideas were taken seriously.

But I am soft. I forgave quickly and easily. 

I think the main problem for us is that I am a J and my husband is a P, in MBTI. I want more structure than he does. He is very comfortable with a lot of open ends, a lot of flexibility. That does not make me feel safe at all.

But with structure, I do want flexibility and consideration and respect. So that is not easy to manage, either.

But I am very drawn to him. He is obviously meeting my greatest needs. But the death by a thousand paper cuts, little disappointments, is not helpful. And with a little structure, would probably not even happen.

To ramble further . . . It is really not satisfying, at least for me, to have to remind him to pay attention to me. He needs very little attention himself, and thinks everyone is that way. It is painful to have to ask for attention. 

And if I were to start some big disciplining program for him, like I sense from some of the other folks here, I would just feel really uncomfortable. I really wonder if it would work, anyway. 

And I don't think it would be satisfying to get something because I imposed it on him, rather than it coming from his own spirit. It would be like reminding him it is my birthday, and I want that specific yellow sweater from that particular store. If I have to do that, I might as well go and buy it myself.

But some gals are fine with that. More power to them. Just is not what I would find satisfying.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> No that is definitely not fine to say!
> 
> That would piss my wife off.


What doesn't? You keep acting like your situation is somehow representative of a lot of things that it isn't. You lost your NUTs eons ago. She has no respect for you. So where else is there for her to go but pissed? And you let her.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> No that is definitely not fine to say!
> 
> That would piss my wife off. She doesn't want me to think she is weird. She wants me to value what she values.
> 
> The hardest part is that can change from day to day. One day a glass on the counter is a major issue. Then next day, the kitchen can be left a mess all day.


I can relate to that. Keep communicating with her. Try to follow her emotions.

Yes, it is work. But it will make her feel you care, and close to you.


----------



## OpenWindows

SadSamIAm said:


> No that is definitely not fine to say!
> 
> That would piss my wife off. She doesn't want me to think she is weird. She wants me to value what she values.
> 
> The hardest part is that can change from day to day. One day a glass on the counter is a major issue. Then next day, the kitchen can be left a mess all day.


Feel free to substitute "I think you're weird" with "I can't identify", " I don't fully understand", or whatever works for guys.


I know I'm weird, and so is he. His crazy matches my crazy. :wink2:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> In a serious way?
> 
> I have thought it twice. The second time was more serious and produced action on his part. All of a sudden I was a priority, my ideas were taken seriously.
> 
> But I am soft. I forgave quickly and easily.
> 
> I think the main problem for us is that I am a J and my husband is a P, in MBTI. I want more structure than he does. He is very comfortable with a lot of open ends, a lot of flexibility. That does not make me feel safe at all.
> 
> But with structure, I do want flexibility and consideration and respect. So that is not easy to manage, either.
> 
> But I am very drawn to him. He is obviously meeting my greatest needs. But the death by a thousand paper cuts, little disappointments, is not helpful. And with a little structure, would probably not even happen.
> 
> To ramble further . . . It is really not satisfying, at least for me, to have to remind him to pay attention to me. He needs very little attention himself, and thinks everyone is that way. It is painful to have to ask for attention.
> 
> And if I were to start some big disciplining program for him, like I sense from some of the other folks here, I would just feel really uncomfortable. I really wonder if it would work, anyway.
> 
> And I don't think it would be satisfying to get something because I imposed it on him, rather than it coming from his own spirit. It would be like reminding him it is my birthday, and I want that specific yellow sweater from that particular store. If I have to do that, I might as well go and buy it myself.
> 
> But some gals are fine with that. More power to them. Just is not what I would find satisfying.


Do you wait for him to pay you attention?


The discipline comes in jld when unreasonableness and abuse shows up... otherwise with an intp... provocative works the rest of the time.

I'm an ENT/FJ myself so I get the needing structure, so I create my own. I don't look to him to provide it.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> @jld, Neither action NOR words of just me moved my mother. It took the words AND action of almost the entire family to start impacting her selfishness. She is just now coming around after seven years and treating me with kindness. Prior to now, she not only cut me out of her life, but also my new born, her ONLY grandson when he was four months old. So it's not just men who can be hard to move. It's ANYONE who is so dug down deep into their selfishness that they can't see the destruction they are causing.


I am sure that is true, BL. In my experience it has been men. I am sure our different experiences affect our individual outlooks.


----------



## alte Dame

marduk said:


> I'm slipping a gear here.
> 
> And you may be absolutely right to do what you did, but am I reading this right -- you're resentful because you have something that seems giant sitting in the middle of the relationship -- your birthday coinciding with the loss of your mother.
> 
> And sufficient resentment that you don't want to remind him of that, and yet resent him because he fails to deliver on it?
> 
> How is that going to be a path for resolution?
> 
> Why not say "Husband, do you realize that my mother died on my birthday when I was 22 and it's extremely meaningful to me to do X and Y and for you to support me on this?"
> 
> I mean, I'm an avid skier, and yet I'd have trouble rationalizing how that wouldn't be a reasonable ask of your spouse.
> 
> And if he refused to respect that, then there's an opportunity for a difficult yet meaningful conversation about respect when it's not about minor things.


I have to respond to this again. 

First, I don't resent him for it. I'm hurt by it. I'm hurt over and over by it. And by so many BIG things, things bigger than this.

And I have zero problem reminding him of my issue. He just rejects it, either failing to process or remember, or outright telling me that I'm being ridiculous.

What you have to understand, M, is that there are some people out there who are so self-absorbed that they are immune to the sort of rational back-and-forth that you describe as healthy.

My H has resented ME for even bringing these things up. He takes it as a challenge that rains on his parade.

I've been flabbergasted and hurt by these big cup moments our entire marriage. I love his better qualities and love my children, but I don't want to go into my golden years with this same sh!t in my marriage.

So, yes, I've done everything I think is humanly possible to cope with the narcissistic man that I still love.

They say that you need to be willing to lose it to fix it. I'm doing that now. I'm not yet WAW, but I will be if we don't find a mutually respectful way of changing this.

ETA: You're an avid skier who would consider my request reasonable. My H is not. He is an avid skier/biker/hiker who thinks his own time is inviolate.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I am sure that is true, BL. In my experience it has been men. I am sure our different experiences affect our individual outlooks.


Without question....

One of the most painful moments I watched between my Mom and my Step Dad was when he was building her this BEAUTIFUL house and the kitchen guys had finished the kitchen and she noticed the cabinets were not flush with the finished sheet rock above it. They finished it out where there was a ledge above the cabinets and she was asking him to rip out the kitchen and fix this one inch overhang. My Step Dad was overwhelmed by that prospect and he calmly tried to explain that it would be ok, he could fix it with molding, but she kept on and on and on TOTALLY oblivious to how much pain she had just caused him. He finally threw the hammer down that was in his hand, stormed off and yelled, "just burn the MF'er down" and she had NO reaction to his behavior whatsoever just turned around to me and ask me if I agreed with her and I said.... "um, did you just see how upset he was?" She totally dismissed it. 

He ended up fixing it with molding and it is by far one of the most gorgeous kitchens I have ever seen. He built her a gorgeous house with HIS own hands and a few crew men. HUGE effort... dismissed by her. It was gut wrenching to watch. She didn't care... she only wanted to be right. Broke my heart for him because that was my experience with her too... nothing was every good enough.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do you wait for him to pay you attention?
> 
> 
> The discipline comes in jld when unreasonableness and abuse shows up... otherwise with an intp... provocative works the rest of the time.
> 
> I'm an ENT/FJ myself so I get the needing structure, so I create my own. I don't look to him to provide it.


I certainly speak up. But there is a limit to that for me, too. Then I withdraw.

This is not some kind of strategy, btw. It is all organic. I have a hard time hiding my feelings, and certainly will not do so with a partner.

I am not interested in trying to manage him in some way. Again, for me it would just not be satisfying. 

I certainly provide a lot of structure in other areas. But in my marriage, in my personal intimate relationship with him, emotional, I specifically mean, I am not going to do it all. If I have to do too much, I will feel alone anyway.

I think that is my real complaint: feeling alone. And that has little to do with his physical presence.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Without question....
> 
> One of the most painful moments I watched between my Mom and my Step Dad was when he was building her this BEAUTIFUL house and the kitchen guys had finished the kitchen and she noticed the cabinets were not flush with the finished sheet rock above it. They finished it out where there was a ledge above the cabinets and she was asking him to rip out the kitchen and fix this one inch overhang. My Step Dad was overwhelmed by that prospect and he calmly tried to explain that it would be ok, he could fix it with molding, but she kept on and on and on TOTALLY oblivious to how much pain she had just caused him. He finally threw the hammer down that was in his hand, stormed off and yelled, "just burn the MF'er down" and she had NO reaction to his behavior whatsoever just turned around to me and ask me if I agreed with her and I said.... "um, did you just see how upset he was?" She totally dismissed it.
> 
> He ended up fixing it with molding and it is by far one of the most gorgeous kitchens I have ever seen. He built her a gorgeous house with HIS own hands and a few crew men. HUGE effort... dismissed by her. It was gut wrenching to watch. She didn't care... she only wanted to be right. Broke my heart for him because that was my experience with her too... nothing was every good enough.


Is she a T, Blossom?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Is she a T, Blossom?


Yep, INTJ


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> And as long as you are with someone that will accommodate your need to be right, then good enough.
> 
> Matt's wife got tired of that.


See, that's where you're wrong.

Both my wife and I respect each other's right to be right, even when we disagree.

I don't need her to agree with me. I have no need to make her acquiesce to my way of thinking. She just needs to respect it. As I do her.

And one of the things we agreed with early on in our relationship together is to not sweat stuff like this. To focus on the big stuff, because we have huge stuff to deal with. 

Let me give you an example. Recently, we had a contentious election here in Canada. We went over to a friend's house, and it came up as a topic of conversation. The husband and wife got into a very heated discussion because they disagreed on it. My wife turned to me and said "who are you going to vote for?" And I said "PCs, Liberals are lunatics." And she said exactly the opposite. 

And this couple said "Aren't you going to argue about it?"

And we both said in unison "Why?"

We can both be right, even when we disagree. The point is that I don't think she has to bend to my will out of respect to me about things that don't matter, and neither do I.

If my wife were to tell me "You leaving out your glass all the time makes me feel disrespected" I would immediately take inventory of all the things I've done in recent history that would have influenced this feeling of hers.

If I hadn't done something significant recently to make her feel respected or valued, I'd do something about that. But that's where my focus would be -- on the big thing, not on the glass.

Because my existence in the same house with her is always going to have ripples in that domain.

But if I had been doing things to make her feel respected and valued, and she was still fixated on the glass... Well, you know what my response would be to that.


----------



## giddiot

Blossom Leigh said:


> Without question....
> 
> One of the most painful moments I watched between my Mom and my Step Dad was when he was building her this BEAUTIFUL house and the kitchen guys had finished the kitchen and she noticed the cabinets were not flush with the finished sheet rock above it. They finished it out where there was a ledge above the cabinets and she was asking him to rip out the kitchen and fix this one inch overhang. My Step Dad was overwhelmed by that prospect and he calmly tried to explain that it would be ok, he could fix it with molding, but she kept on and on and on TOTALLY oblivious to how much pain she had just caused him. He finally threw the hammer down that was in his hand, stormed off and yelled, "just burn the MF'er down" and she had NO reaction to his behavior whatsoever just turned around to me and ask me if I agreed with her and I said.... "um, did you just see how upset he was?" She totally dismissed it.
> 
> He ended up fixing it with molding and it is by far one of the most gorgeous kitchens I have ever seen. He built her a gorgeous house with HIS own hands and a few crew men. HUGE effort... dismissed by her. It was gut wrenching to watch. She didn't care... she only wanted to be right. Broke my heart for him because that was my experience with her too... nothing was every good enough.


My wife resembles this, she is never satisfied with anything I make or fix so I don't.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> So your point is that this won't happen in a balanced relationship? If so, I agree... But a balanced relationship is not what we're talking about here.


My point is that if there's a problem with minor ****, it's because the major **** is out of whack.

And focusing on the minor **** and expecting it to have a major impact is going to simultaneously not help the one that's bothered by the small stuff and frustrate the one that's trying to fix it because it won't work.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yep, INTJ


Yeah, that type often has to be right. Plus she likely has dysfunction of her own in her past. Yikes.


----------



## Marduk

alte Dame said:


> I have to respond to this again.
> 
> First, I don't resent him for it. I'm hurt by it. I'm hurt over and over by it. And by so many BIG things, things bigger than this.
> 
> And I have zero problem reminding him of my issue. He just rejects it, either failing to process or remember, or outright telling me that I'm being ridiculous.
> 
> What you have to understand, M, is that there are some people out there who are so self-absorbed that they are immune to the sort of rational back-and-forth that you describe as healthy.
> 
> My H has resented ME for even bringing these things up. He takes it as a challenge that rains on his parade.
> 
> I've been flabbergasted and hurt by these big cup moments our entire marriage. I love his better qualities and love my children, but I don't want to go into my golden years with this same sh!t in my marriage.
> 
> So, yes, I've done everything I think is humanly possible to cope with the narcissistic man that I still love.
> 
> They say that you need to be willing to lose it to fix it. I'm doing that now. I'm not yet WAW, but I will be if we don't find a mutually respectful way of changing this.
> 
> ETA: You're an avid skier who would consider my request reasonable. My H is not. He is an avid skier/biker/hiker who thinks his own time is inviolate.


How would a conversation that starts with "Husband, I'm thinking of leaving you because I don't feel respected or valued" go?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I certainly speak up. But there is a limit to that for me, too. Then I withdraw.
> 
> This is not some kind of strategy, btw. It is all organic. I have a hard time hiding my feelings, and certainly will not do so with a partner.
> 
> I am not interested in trying to manage him in some way. Again, for me it would just not be satisfying.
> 
> I certainly provide a lot of structure in other areas. But in my marriage, in my personal intimate relationship with him, emotional, I specifically mean, I am not going to do it all. If I have to do too much, I will feel alone anyway.
> 
> I think that is my real complaint: feeling alone. And that has little to do with his physical presence.


I don't have to have strategy to get him to pay attention to me. I get that from him without asking. He almost goes too far the other way. I did have to learn how to give him space, but now that is easy since I learned how to create my own heart peace. The only thing I "manage" now is disrespect when it shows up. He just doesn't do that much of that anymore.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Yeah, that type often has to be right. Plus she likely has dysfunction of her own in her past. Yikes.


Yes Ma'am.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

giddiot said:


> My wife resembles this, she is never satisfied with anything I make or fix so I don't.


And this is exactly what I was talking about with someone yesterday. When the person being particular chooses to be critical without EVER balancing that out. It TOTALLY kills the try.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> No? I mean that is not what I am talking about. You seem to be talking about any damned thing that allows you to be right. What are you trying to achieve with this discussion? An excuse to be lazy? Your points are all over the place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why you continue to talk about a problem on a thread that is not about that problem. Do you really fail to understand the topic?


Wow...

Here is my point:

If someone complains about the small stuff, it's either because they're fixated by small stuff, or that big stuff is broken in the relationship.

Either way, fixing the small stuff on it's own isn't going to work.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I don't have to have strategy to get him to pay attention to me. I get that from him without asking. He almost goes too far the other way. I did have to learn how to give him space, but now that is easy since I learned how to create my own heart peace. The only thing I "manage" now is disrespect when it shows up. He just doesn't do that much of that anymore.


I am glad you have found a way that works for you, Blossom.


----------



## Marduk

giddiot said:


> My wife resembles this, she is never satisfied with anything I make or fix so I don't.


Do you see what happens when you fixate on the small stuff?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> Do you see what happens when you fixate on the small stuff?


If women are weak in an area, I say it is learning to be particular without being critical, not having their own thing to maximize their talents and not allowing enough space to let the man come to them. 

In other words...

Be reasonable

Relish your talents

Don't be needy


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> My point is that if there's a problem with minor ****, it's because the major **** is out of whack.
> 
> And focusing on the minor **** and expecting it to have a major impact is going to simultaneously not help the one that's bothered by the small stuff and frustrate the one that's trying to fix it because it won't work.


Fair enough.

But if the minor stuff is contributing to the major stuff, then continuing to deal out those minor hurts will slow down your progress on the major issue. You have to focus on both, especially if you don't agree on what's minor and what's major.

Maybe I just don't understand how you can deal with the major issue (in this case, her feeling disrespected), while still doing the things that make her FEEL disrespected.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Wow...


Oy! Sounded harsh. Was not my intention. I clacked too quickly while working.



> Here is my point:
> 
> If someone complains about the small stuff, it's either because they're fixated by small stuff, or that big stuff is broken in the relationship.
> 
> Either way, fixing the small stuff on it's own isn't going to work.


I don't disagree with your point. It just isn't the point of the thread. The point of the thread is ignoring someone ELSEs big stuff because one thinks it is small.


----------



## jld

Matt, what kind of feedback do you get on your posts? I am guessing a lot of women are very positive on what you write, and most of the men think it is too much work. Is that accurate?


----------



## giddiot

marduk said:


> Do you see what happens when you fixate on the small stuff?


The reason for this I believe comes from a much bigger problem that I caused. There are times when my wife wants to make major improvements to our house, like replace all the carpet, paint the whole house on the inside, put up new blinds and fix fixtures and worn out plumbing fixtures. 

The problem is she had no concept of our money situation, I have tried for a long time to get her involved but she wants no part of it. She wants money to be available when she wants to spend it. I have put the brakes on that one and I know she feels that I am disrespecting her opinions. 

I tell her lets focus on one of them not all at the same time, but then she says whats the point. So we are stalemated. Then she brings up that I had to spend about $20K on a previous house to replace windows, carpet, paint, roof, etc in order to sell it. We got the money back out of the sale. So I get the you spent it then when you wanted to spend it but not when I want to spend it.

I should have been more respectful of her wants and worked with her on it rather than just doing what AD's husband does is say she is being ridiculous.

This discussion has really made me feel guilty for being an A$$.

My wife gets exasperated with me when I dont put the toilet seat down, close cabinet doors, turn off the oven after cooking something, leave the kitchen messed up after cooking dinner, not bring my clothes to the landry and the one that really bugs her is not wiping up the water on the shower door. I try but as a guy, I am terrible about focusing on this, my mind is somewhere else most of the time. I guess I know now this little stuff is cumulative on her feeling disrespected.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> In a serious way?
> 
> I have thought it twice. The second time was more serious and produced action on his part. All of a sudden I was a priority, my ideas were taken seriously.
> 
> But I am soft. I forgave quickly and easily.
> 
> I think the main problem for us is that I am a J and my husband is a P, in MBTI. I want more structure than he does. He is very comfortable with a lot of open ends, a lot of flexibility. That does not make me feel safe at all.
> 
> But with structure, I do want flexibility and consideration and respect. So that is not easy to manage, either.
> 
> But I am very drawn to him. He is obviously meeting my greatest needs. But the death by a thousand paper cuts, little disappointments, is not helpful. And with a little structure, would probably not even happen.
> 
> To ramble further . . . It is really not satisfying, at least for me, to have to remind him to pay attention to me. He needs very little attention himself, and thinks everyone is that way. It is painful to have to ask for attention.
> 
> And if I were to start some big disciplining program for him, like I sense from some of the other folks here, I would just feel really uncomfortable. I really wonder if it would work, anyway.
> 
> And I don't think it would be satisfying to get something because I imposed it on him, rather than it coming from his own spirit. It would be like reminding him it is my birthday, and I want that specific yellow sweater from that particular store. If I have to do that, I might as well go and buy it myself.
> 
> But some gals are fine with that. More power to them. Just is not what I would find satisfying.


Thanks, I understand a bit more now


----------



## Blossom Leigh

giddiot said:


> The reason for this I believe comes from a much bigger problem that I caused. There are times when my wife wants to make major improvements to our house, like replace all the carpet, paint the whole house on the inside, put up new blinds and fix fixtures and worn out plumbing fixtures.
> 
> The problem is she had no concept of our money situation, I have tried for a long time to get her involved but she wants no part of it. She wants money to be available when she wants to spend it. I have put the brakes on that one and I know she feels that I am disrespecting her opinions.
> 
> I tell her lets focus on one of them not all at the same time, but then she says whats the point. So we are stalemated. Then she brings up that I had to spend about $20K on a previous house to replace windows, carpet, paint, roof, etc in order to sell it. We got the money back out of the sale. So I get the you spent it then when you wanted to spend it but not when I want to spend it.
> 
> I should have been more respectful of her wants and worked with her on it rather than just doing what AD's husband does is say she is being ridiculous.
> 
> This discussion has really made me feel guilty for being an A$$.


Boundaries!! Nip it in the bud. 

ETA: When one person's actions in the family are serving to wreck the entire family either financially, emotionally, physically, it's time to bring out the big "guns" and cause an attitude adjustment. For me that is a general rule of thumb for boundaries. And it is MUCH better to do it sooner than later.


----------



## jld

giddiot said:


> The reason for this I believe comes from a much bigger problem that I caused. There are times when my wife wants to make major improvements to our house, like replace all the carpet, paint the whole house on the inside, put up new blinds and fix fixtures and worn out plumbing fixtures.
> 
> The problem is she had no concept of our money situation, I have tried for a long time to get her involved but she wants no part of it. She wants money to be available when she wants to spend it. I have put the brakes on that one and I know she feels that I am disrespecting her opinions.
> 
> I tell her lets focus on one of them not all at the same time, but then she says whats the point. So we are stalemated. Then she brings up that I had to spend about $20K on a previous house to replace windows, carpet, paint, roof, etc in order to sell it. We got the money back out of the sale. So I get the you spent it then when you wanted to spend it but not when I want to spend it.
> 
> I should have been more respectful of her wants and worked with her on it rather than just doing what AD's husband does is say she is being ridiculous.
> 
> This discussion has really made me feel guilty for being an A$$.


I think when people feel their feelings are being respected, they will be more open to logical solutions. Without feeling respected on a personal level, the heart sort of stops the flow to the brain. Jmo.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But if the minor stuff is contributing to the major stuff, then continuing to deal out those minor hurts will slow down your progress on the major issue. You have to focus on both, especially if you don't agree on what's minor and what's major.
> 
> Maybe I just don't understand how you can deal with the major issue (in this case, her feeling disrespected), while still doing the things that make her FEEL disrespected.


Here's what I would do if my wife did this exact thing, and I hadn't been making her feel respected and valued recently. I'd pick one of the following based on what exactly the deficit was that she was feeling:

A: If she was feeling overwhelmed and overburdened by being a wife and mother, I'd book a weekend for her and her sister or girlfriend in NYC or SF wine country. Spas, luxury treatment, restaraunts, all that jazz. While I take care of the kids and make sure she comes home to a sparkling house.

B: If she was feeling like I'm not making enough of an effort, it would be arranging for one of our family members to watch the kids, and me taking her away for the weekend or at least a great date night out to one of her favorite spots. For example, recently I arranged for a running joke/romantic thing recently -- where I'm having an affair with my wife. I take a few hours off work in the middle of the day on a day that she has off as well, and leave a note for her to meet her affair partner at a 5 star hotel downtown for an illicit meetup.

C: If she felt like I wasn't listening to her, I'd arrange to spend a lot more 1-1 time... In the hot tub, or over drinks, or even while we take kids to their practice... Where I just listen. Specifically, "you seem to have a lot on your mind, I'm just here to listen." And let her go.

D: If she felt like the family wasn't helping out enough around the house, I'd arrange for a full day family cleanup where the kids and I tackle all the major crap around the house... And usually take on at least one project that's been bugging her. Recently it was cleaning out the storage room.

That kind of stuff seems to work a heck of a lot better than just running around trying to fix the random stuff that we all like to complain about.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> Matt, what kind of feedback do you get on your posts? I am guessing a lot of women are very positive on what you write, and most of the men think it is too much work. Is that accurate?


Good question


----------



## alte Dame

marduk said:


> How would a conversation that starts with "Husband, I'm thinking of leaving you because I don't feel respected or valued" go?


The way that has gone is ,"Wife, I don't want our marriage to fail. Can we try to recover? What can I do?"

So, we are now in counseling together.


----------



## Marduk

giddiot said:


> The reason for this I believe comes from a much bigger problem that I caused. There are times when my wife wants to make major improvements to our house, like replace all the carpet, paint the whole house on the inside, put up new blinds and fix fixtures and worn out plumbing fixtures.
> 
> The problem is she had no concept of our money situation, I have tried for a long time to get her involved but she wants no part of it. She wants money to be available when she wants to spend it. I have put the brakes on that one and I know she feels that I am disrespecting her opinions.
> 
> I tell her lets focus on one of them not all at the same time, but then she says whats the point. So we are stalemated. Then she brings up that I had to spend about $20K on a previous house to replace windows, carpet, paint, roof, etc in order to sell it. We got the money back out of the sale. So I get the you spent it then when you wanted to spend it but not when I want to spend it.
> 
> I should have been more respectful of her wants and worked with her on it rather than just doing what AD's husband does is say she is being ridiculous.
> 
> This discussion has really made me feel guilty for being an A$$.
> 
> My wife gets exasperated with me when I dont put the toilet seat down, close cabinet doors, turn off the oven after cooking something, leave the kitchen messed up after cooking dinner, not bring my clothes to the landry and the one that really bugs her is not wiping up the water on the shower door. I try but as a guy, I am terrible about focusing on this, my mind is somewhere else most of the time. I guess I know now this little stuff is cumulative on her feeling disrespected.


Ugh. Been there.

What I would recommend is to have you make a plan for the house improvements. Based on priority, time, money, and bang for the buck. And sequencing... That's very important. Like do the floors and painting last.

Make your plan. Share your plan with her, get her input (she will want to change some priorities, most likely). Then when you come to some reasonable conclusions, start executing the plan. She doesn't want to be involved, so she doesn't have to be.

But here's the kicker -- you have to execute the plan with 100% trustworthiness. Let her relax because you have it. But because your focus is on the plan... Ask for some slack on the small stuff that you suck at.

I really would struggle with thinking of a wife that sees her husband working on the house every weekend and yet gets mad at water on the shower door.


----------



## Marduk

alte Dame said:


> The way that has gone is ,"Wife, I don't want our marriage to fail. Can we try to recover? What can I do?"
> 
> So, we are now in counseling together.


That's good, right?


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> That kind of stuff seems to work a heck of a lot better than just running around trying to fix the random stuff that we all like to complain about.


Most definitely. But we're talking about people who don't believe their spouse has any reason to feel disrespected, they just don't believe it's happening. Those people won't go to the trouble you describe, because they don't believe there's a problem to address.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Here's what I would do if my wife did this exact thing, and I hadn't been making her feel respected and valued recently. I'd pick one of the following based on what exactly the deficit was that she was feeling:
> 
> A: If she was feeling overwhelmed and overburdened by being a wife and mother, I'd book a weekend for her and her sister or girlfriend in NYC or SF wine country. Spas, luxury treatment, restaraunts, all that jazz. While I take care of the kids and make sure she comes home to a sparkling house.
> 
> B: If she was feeling like I'm not making enough of an effort, it would be arranging for one of our family members to watch the kids, and me taking her away for the weekend or at least a great date night out to one of her favorite spots. For example, recently I arranged for a running joke/romantic thing recently -- where I'm having an affair with my wife. I take a few hours off work in the middle of the day on a day that she has off as well, and leave a note for her to meet her affair partner at a 5 star hotel downtown for an illicit meetup.
> 
> C: If she felt like I wasn't listening to her, I'd arrange to spend a lot more 1-1 time... In the hot tub, or over drinks, or even while we take kids to their practice... Where I just listen. Specifically, "you seem to have a lot on your mind, I'm just here to listen." And let her go.
> 
> D: If she felt like the family wasn't helping out enough around the house, I'd arrange for a full day family cleanup where the kids and I tackle all the major crap around the house... And usually take on at least one project that's been bugging her. Recently it was cleaning out the storage room.
> 
> That kind of stuff seems to work a heck of a lot better than just running around trying to fix the random stuff that we all like to complain about.


This is not you. And this is not your wife. Because she is happy with what you are doing, so that makes it fine. But when I say

I really need X

and my husband bends over backward to manthink me and comes up with doing Y FOR me, I want to smack him back to the stone age.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> This is not you. And this is not your wife. Because she is happy with what you are doing, so that makes it fine. But when I say
> 
> I really need X
> 
> *and my husband bends over backward to manthink me and comes up with doing Y FOR me, I want to smack him back to the stone age.*


Oh, I do that too. I think of it as a free bonus.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Oh, I do that too. I think of it as a free bonus.


Marduk, you just did. There is no "too" about it.


----------



## Marduk

Of course, if I had been working hard to be an awesome husband and she complained about the glass, my reaction would probably be a lot less respectful.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Of course, if I had been working hard to be an awesome husband and she complained about the glass, my reaction would probably be a lot less respectful.


Marduk, would it matter to you if she disagreed with your definition of awesome husband?


----------



## alte Dame

marduk said:


> That's good, right?


Yes, that's good. My H is starting to experience the justgotit55 moment, I think. And here's the kicker -> He is having a hard time developing his empathy. This is a longstanding problem for him both personally and professionally. Being me, I now am watching him with my heart in my throat because I feel bad for him. That's love, right? Or is it enabling?? LOL, can't win for losing.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Marduk, you just did. There is no "too" about it.


Is that womansplaining?


----------



## jld

@BlueWoman and @OpenWindows

Do you feel more understood and respected at this point in the thread?


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> Marduk, would it matter to you if she disagreed with your definition of awesome husband?


An important point, for sure.

My XH's definition of an awesome husband was bring home a paycheck, don't hit, and don't cheat. To me, that was just the baseline requirement, not awesomeness.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Marduk, would it matter to you if she disagreed with your definition of awesome husband?


In a reasonable way or an unreasonable way?

Let me give you some real world examples in the past six months.

A: my friend's husband just bought her a giant 3 carat ring. If you loved me, you'd buy me one, right? 

B: you know, I've been saying for years we need to redo the windows and doors on the house. I know you don't want to spend the money, but it's becoming unreasonable because of the drafts and the back door is getting too hard to open for even me.

My response to her definition of being an awesome husband in both examples were quite different.

A was "good luck with that one." B was "you know, I have let it slide for too long, I'll get some quotes in the spring."


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> @BlueWoman and @OpenWindows
> 
> Do you feel more understood and respected at this point in the thread?


By who? Other posters?

Yes and no. Mostly yes, but I also feel like I'm talking to a wall sometimes.

By my ex?
No change there.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> In a reasonable way or an unreasonable way?




Haaaaa! There it is, in a nutshell.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Marduk, would it matter to you if she disagreed with your definition of awesome husband?


This is the key for me. My husband listens for **** sometimes. HE thinks he is a rock star because of how he loves to touch me, cuddle me, hold my hand. Touch is NOT my love language. I have taught myself to hear love from it. Because that is what HE feels. NOW he has learned to try to speak my love language. But back in the day when he patted himself on the back for how awesome he was despite how *I* felt, it was not a lot of fun.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> Yes and no. Mostly yes, but *I also feel like I'm talking to a wall sometimes.*


I hear you.

I think people mean well, and really want to help solve problems. But ultimately people need to find their own solutions. 

Nothing is really going to satisfy me personally other than my husband making me feel I am not alone in the marriage. I need his attention, and *I need it to come from him, from his own spirit, just because he cares enough to do it*.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> This is the key for me. My husband listens for **** sometimes. HE thinks he is a rock star because of how he loves to touch me, cuddle me, hold my hand. Touch is NOT my love language. I have taught myself to hear love from it. Because that is what HE feels. NOW he has learned to try to speak my love language. But back in the day when he patted himself on the back for how awesome he was despite how *I* felt, it was not a lot of fun.


What is your love language?


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> This is the key for me. My husband listens for **** sometimes. HE thinks he is a rock star because of how he loves to touch me, cuddle me, hold my hand. Touch is NOT my love language. I have taught myself to hear love from it. Because that is what HE feels. NOW he has learned to try to speak my love language. But back in the day when he patted himself on the back for how awesome he was despite how *I* felt, it was not a lot of fun.


Well, at least he tries.

I know that it counts for a lot for me when my wife tries, even if it's a total miss.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I hear you.
> 
> I think people mean well, and really want to help solve problems. But ultimately people need to find their own solutions.
> 
> Nothing is really going to satisfy me personally other than my husband making me feel I am not alone in the marriage. I need his attention, and *I need it to come from him, from his own spirit, just because he cares enough to do it*.


When you talk to Dug about it, do you talk about the specific annoyances that makes you feel alone, or the fact that you feel alone and the things he can do to help that feeling go away?


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> Nothing is really going to satisfy me personally other than my husband making me feel I am not alone in the marriage. I need his attention, and *I need it to come from him, from his own spirit, just because he cares enough to do it*.


I need that too. If I have to fight him for it, it doesn't feel authentic. It just feels like something he's doing to make me settle down and be quiet.

"I want you to want me, I need you to need me..."


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> When you talk to Dug about it, do you talk about the specific annoyances that makes you feel alone, or the fact that you feel alone and the things he can do to help that feeling go away?


He knows. That is what hurts. He knows and only does what he feels like doing, because he knows he can. Nothing very bad will ever happen.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> I need that too. If I have to fight him for it, it doesn't feel authentic. It just feels like something he's doing to make me settle down and be quiet.
> 
> "I want you to want me, I need you to need me..."


It's not even fighting him. It is just having to remind him repeatedly that I am here and have way more needs than he ever will.

I am always going to ultimately do the right thing. I am devoted to him and the kids. I am devoted to doing the right thing for the family overall. 

I don't appreciate having that devotion taken for granted. But I have no way that is acceptable to me, other than his goodwill, to get my own needs met.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> He knows. That is what hurts. He knows and only does what he feels like doing, because he knows he can. Nothing very bad will ever happen.


That's not really an answer.

I know he says he knows... But does he _know?_

When the small **** bugs you, what big **** is missing?


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> It's not even fighting him. It is just having to remind him repeatedly that I am here and have way more needs than he ever will.
> 
> I am always going to ultimately do the right thing. I am devoted to him and the kids. I am devoted to doing the right thing for the family overall.
> 
> I don't appreciate having that devotion taken for granted. But I have no way that is acceptable to me, other than his goodwill, to get my own needs met.


That's where we differ. The right thing for me and my kids was for me to leave, and meet my own needs and theirs.

That's not criticism, just an observation. I couldn't do what you do.


----------



## just got it 55

I know it would hurt me to know I hurt my wife But......She would never tell me I hurt her

Does she figure it's my job to know even if it is small?

Is that even fair? To cause harm and not knowing or not having the info to avoid it ?

55


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> That's not really an answer.
> 
> I know he says he knows... But does he _know?_
> 
> When the small **** bugs you, what big **** is missing?


It is the sense of being important, more important than whatever is occupying his interest at the moment. The sense of being a priority.

It is very hard to love someone very much and not feel like you are as much a priority to them as they are to you.

I cannot get my needs met from an equal relationship perspective, nor from a female dominant one. I need a leader to feel safe, and I need to feel that I am very special and very important to that leader.

It is also hard to be married to a strong T when you have strong F tendencies. Dug is not a communicator. I am. I need that back.

And when I get it, it is so beautiful. So inspiring. But having to chase it down and practically reach my hand in and pull it out of his heart is so discouraging.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I don't appreciate having that devotion taken for granted. But I have no way that is acceptable to me, other than his goodwill, to get my own needs met.


Why do you think he takes it for granted? Because you feel he does. He sure doesn't seem to be someone who is taking advantage of you. Accept him for who he is. Meet your own needs. We don't need others to be happy. Sure it's nice but I wouldn't bust up a family cause we don't talk to 4 am like we did when we first met.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> That's where we differ. The right thing for me and my kids was for me to leave, and meet my own needs and theirs.
> 
> That's not criticism, just an observation. *I couldn't do what you do.*


You mean being devoted?

Dug is a very good man. Clueless, but very good. 

Your ex does not sound that way. I think you absolutely did the right thing to leave.

The only other way might have been Blossom's, just taking charge of the relationship. It clearly worked for her. But we are not all Blossom.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Why do you think he takes it for granted? Because you feel he does. He sure doesn't seem to be someone who is taking advantage of you. Accept him for who he is. Meet your own needs. We don't need others to be happy. Sure it's nice but I wouldn't bust up a family cause we don't talk to 4 am like we did when we first met.


He tells me he takes me for granted. He knows it. 

But he can get away with it. Nothing I am realistically ever going to do is going to hurt him very much. And again, that is what is hurtful.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Nothing I am realistically ever going to do is going to hurt him very much. And again, that is what is hurtful.


Are you certain? That is painful to read.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> It is the sense of being important, more important than whatever is occupying his interest at the moment. The sense of being a priority.
> 
> It is very hard to love someone very much and not feel like you are as much a priority to them as they are to you.
> 
> I cannot get my needs met from an equal relationship perspective, nor from a female dominant one. I need a leader to feel safe, and I need to feel that I am very special and very important to that leader.
> 
> It is also hard to be married to a strong T when you have strong F tendencies. Dug is not a communicator. I am. I need that back.
> 
> And when I get it, it is so beautiful. So inspiring. But having to chase it down and practically reach my hand in and pull it out of his heart is so discouraging.


My confusion of course lies in the fact that Dug is only in your life because he is low emo to begin with. That's why you feel safe, because he does not respond emotionally. 

And yet his low emo means that he will never do what you need to not feel alone. 

Do you not see the trap?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> You mean being devoted?
> 
> Dug is a very good man. Clueless, but very good.
> 
> Your ex does not sound that way. I think you absolutely did the right thing to leave.
> 
> The only other way might have been Blossom's, just taking charge of the relationship. It clearly worked for her. But we are not all Blossom.


I meant submitting myself completely to a man's leadership. That doesn't compute to me... I can't trust quite that much. But I'm not Blossom either. I'm somewhere in between. I believe in balance, above all things. He did not believe I needed balance, and therefore I did not want to stay with him in our unbalanced marriage.

And yes, our husbands are very different!


----------



## VirgenTecate

Even if we never reach any sort of agreement, I have been enjoying reading this thread. It's one of the deeper discussions on marriage we have had here.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> It is the sense of being important, more important than whatever is occupying his interest at the moment. The sense of being a priority.
> 
> It is very hard to love someone very much and not feel like you are as much a priority to them as they are to you.
> 
> I cannot get my needs met from an equal relationship perspective, nor from a female dominant one. I need a leader to feel safe, and I need to feel that I am very special and very important to that leader.
> 
> It is also hard to be married to a strong T when you have strong F tendencies. Dug is not a communicator. I am. I need that back.
> 
> And when I get it, it is so beautiful. So inspiring. But having to chase it down and practically reach my hand in and pull it out of his heart is so discouraging.


I don't chase anybody anymore. If they aren't around I go make my own fun. What typically ends up happening is once they do think of me, they've missed out on some awesomeness and end up saying "hey, I want some of that." And when they do, I celebrate them showing up. I don't say a word.... I just go do and have fun... they catch up later and wish they had caught up to me sooner.:grin2: Next time.. they catch up sooner. I don't have it in me to stew in that pain anymore OR choose to resent either.


----------



## OpenWindows

VirgenTecate said:


> Even if we never reach any sort of agreement, I have been enjoying reading this thread. It's one of the deeper discussions on marriage we have had here.


I doubt there will be an agreement. We'll just get bored and wander away. I keep telling myself I'll stop posting on this thread... but I've already demonstrated that I suck at boundaries, LOL!


----------



## VirgenTecate

OpenWindows said:


> I doubt there will be an agreement. We'll just get bored and wander away. I keep telling myself I'll stop posting on this thread... but I've already demonstrated that I suck at boundaries, LOL!


I say the same thing about TAM lol


----------



## Blossom Leigh

lol... y'all are not Blossom.. Hey.. I used to not be Blossom either. I learned to be Blossom.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> *I would be depressed if I were with a man I could not please, too.*
> 
> You have an uphill climb with this one, OP. You are more courageous than I am. Kids alone are enough of a challenge, never mind such a husband.


Taken from Not A Great Housewife

This is what rubs me the wrong way about this thread. A clean house is super important to him. 
This is his need. She knows this is his need and you dismiss it with your above quote.

How are these two situations different? They are not different at all. She is not meeting his needs and has fell out of love with her and as she states is probably going to leave her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ButtPunch said:


> Taken from Not A Great Housewife
> 
> This is what rubs me the wrong way about this thread. A clean house is super important to him.
> This is his need. She knows this is his need and you dismiss it with your above quote.
> 
> How are these two situations different. They are not different at all. She is not meeting his needs and has fell
> out of love with her.


Yea, that's why we go back to a non-gender approach. It happens on both sides. I think spouses need to be mindful of the frequency of criticism and the quality of it. It is better to be particular without being critical as well as not micromanaging no matter what the gender is. Don't kill the try.


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> He tells me he takes me for granted. He knows it.
> 
> But he can get away with it. Nothing I am realistically ever going to do is going to hurt him very much. And again, that is what is hurtful.


JLD don't be so sure about that If he loves and honors you as you say you could hurt him deeply He may be very good at hiding it

My sense is,you would never hurt him in any meaningful way I just don't think you have it in you

55


----------



## ButtPunch

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, that's why we go back to a non-gender approach. It happens on both sides. I think spouses need to be mindful of the frequency of criticism and the quality of it. It is better to be particular without being critical as well as not micromanaging no matter what the gender is. Don't kill the try.


This!

I remember breaking out the dishwasher catalog as further evidence to support my theory that my wife was loading the dishwasher wrong.

As ridiculous as this sounds, for some reason it was important to me. I guess it's the engineer in me.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ButtPunch said:


> This!
> 
> I remember breaking out the dishwasher catalog as further evidence to support my theory that my wife was loading the dishwasher wrong.
> 
> As ridiculous as this sounds, for some reason it was important to me. I guess it's the engineer in me.


LOL!! I would have told you to shove that catalog up your..... bleep.

That's not what I meant, but it cracks me up that you did that.


----------



## OpenWindows

VirgenTecate said:


> I say the same thing about TAM lol


Me too. I leave for a few months, then come back with a new username! The flesh is weak... :wink2:


----------



## ButtPunch

Blossom Leigh said:


> LOL!! I would have told you to shove that catalog up your..... bleep.
> 
> That's not what I meant, but it cracks me up that you did that.


I believe that was pretty much what I was told.

Even though the catalog clearly states that knives should point up and that no plastics on the bottom shelf. It doesn't take an engineering degree folks. The heat from the bottom shelf can disrupt the molecular make-up of certain plastics especially those that aren't dishwasher safe. Remember the big BPA scare.


----------



## BlueWoman

jld said:


> @BlueWoman and @OpenWindows
> 
> Do you feel more understood and respected at this point in the thread?


I have a lot of feelings about this thread. 
Mostly it makes me sad. Because, I get that it wasn't just about the glass in my marriage. And most women and a few men on this thread get it as well.

But most men and a few women, don't seem to get it. And I wonder, am I doomed? 

Because I have to say, I resent like hell, how much of the small stuff I put up with, for so little pay off. Because enough small stuff becomes big. And it becomes exhausting. And I wonder why I put up with it for so long? But with so many men, not seeing it, I think that I'm stuck being single because the odds of find a guy who doesn't resent me for wanting my home to not feel like chaos and to not want to spend my precious free time cleaning up after him in an effort not to have my home chaotic, is pretty low.


----------



## OpenWindows

ButtPunch said:


> I believe that was pretty much what I was told.
> 
> Even though the catalog clearly states that knives should point up and that no plastics on the bottom shelf. It doesn't take an engineering degree folks. The heat from the bottom shelf can disrupt the molecular make-up of certain plastics especially those that aren't dishwasher safe. Remember the big BPA scare.


My XH would have had a fit over knives pointing up. "I might cut myself if I'm not paying attention!!"


----------



## Marduk

ButtPunch said:


> This!
> 
> I remember breaking out the dishwasher catalog as further evidence to support my theory that my wife was loading the dishwasher wrong.
> 
> As ridiculous as this sounds, for some reason it was important to me. I guess it's the engineer in me.


I call BS.

Since when do men read catalogues or instruction manuals?


----------



## ButtPunch

BlueWoman said:


> I have a lot of feelings about this thread.
> Mostly it makes me sad. Because, I get that it wasn't just about the glass in my marriage. And most women and a few men on this thread get it as well.
> 
> But most men and a few women, don't seem to get it. And I wonder, am I doomed?
> 
> Because I have to say, I resent like hell, how much of the small stuff I put up with, for so little pay off. Because enough small stuff becomes big. And it becomes exhausting. And I wonder why I put up with it for so long? But with so many men, not seeing it, I think that I'm stuck being single because the odds of find a guy who doesn't resent me for wanting my home to not feel like chaos and to not want to spend my precious free time cleaning up after him in an effort not to have my home chaotic, is pretty low.


There are guys out there that place the same value on a clean home as you do. Find one of them. Problem is sometimes the whole attraction thing gets in the way of the compatibility thing.


----------



## OpenWindows

BlueWoman said:


> I have a lot of feelings about this thread.
> Mostly it makes me sad. Because, I get that it wasn't just about the glass in my marriage. And most women and a few men on this thread get it as well.
> 
> But most men and a few women, don't seem to get it. And I wonder, am I doomed?
> 
> Because I have to say, I resent like hell, how much of the small stuff I put up with, for so little pay off. Because enough small stuff becomes big. And it becomes exhausting. And I wonder why I put up with it for so long? But with so many men, not seeing it, I think that I'm stuck being single because the odds of find a guy who doesn't resent me for wanting my home to not feel like chaos and to not want to spend my precious free time cleaning up after him in an effort not to have my home chaotic, is pretty low.


Going forward, if you stop putting up with too much, the rest falls into place better. You'll weed out the guys who don't care, and the one who do care will respect your boundaries if you make them clear. 

It's easier to start a good habit than to break a bad one!

I had to learn that if I was seriously asking myself, "Can I REALLY live with this behavior?"... the answer was most likely no, even if I really wanted it to be yes.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ButtPunch said:


> I believe that was pretty much what I was told.
> 
> Even though the catalog clearly states that knives should point up and that no plastics on the bottom shelf. It doesn't take an engineering degree folks. The heat from the bottom shelf can disrupt the molecular make-up of certain plastics especially those that aren't dishwasher safe. Remember the big BPA scare.




Being particular without being critical is a high standard and very hard to do. One of the masters at it is Pat Parelli.


----------



## ButtPunch

marduk said:


> I call BS.
> 
> Since when do men read catalogues or instruction manuals?


I'm a mechanical engineer. I am an instructional manual. I read it to see if they got it right.


----------



## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> I call BS.
> 
> Since when do men read catalogues or instruction manuals?


What are they?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

BlueWoman said:


> I have a lot of feelings about this thread.
> Mostly it makes me sad. Because, I get that it wasn't just about the glass in my marriage. And most women and a few men on this thread get it as well.
> 
> But most men and a few women, don't seem to get it. And I wonder, am I doomed?
> 
> Because I have to say, I resent like hell, how much of the small stuff I put up with, for so little pay off. Because enough small stuff becomes big. And it becomes exhausting. And I wonder why I put up with it for so long? But with so many men, not seeing it, I think that I'm stuck being single because the odds of find a guy who doesn't resent me for wanting my home to not feel like chaos and to not want to spend my precious free time cleaning up after him in an effort not to have my home chaotic, is pretty low.


Three words...

Hire a maid.


----------



## ButtPunch

OpenWindows said:


> My XH would have had a fit over knives pointing up. "I might cut myself if I'm not paying attention!!"


IKR...You know what happens with knives pointing down? You have to buy a new utensil holder in about a year because plastic and knives don't mix.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ButtPunch said:


> I'm a mechanical engineer. I am an instructional manual. I read it to see if they got it right.


LOL!!! I'd have to hurt you.


----------



## Marduk

ButtPunch said:


> I'm a mechanical engineer. I am an instructional manual. I read it to see if they got it right.


Hmm... "If you loved me, you'd stop telling me to open the instruction manual instead of swearing about how it's designed wrong."

I'll have to try that next time she brings something home that's 'some assembly required.'

Although I guarantee I'm going to end up with the manual lodged in one end or the other of my GI tract.


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> Hmm... "If you loved me, you'd stop telling me to open the instruction manual instead of swearing about how it's designed wrong."
> 
> I'll have to try that next time she brings something home that's 'some assembly required.'


If you say it like that, you'll never get to the major issue. 

Try it like this-
"When you tell me to read the manual, I feel disrespected."
...
"When you won't help me pull the manual out of my butt, I feel like you don't care about my pain."


----------



## farsidejunky

ButtPunch said:


> IKR...You know what happens with knives pointing down? You have to buy a new utensil holder in about a year because plastic and knives don't mix.


Two words:

Wooden block

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## ButtPunch

When you load the dishwasher incorrectly, I feel disrespected. Chemical toxins from the plastics are getting into our children's bodies. This is a life safety issue. Ohhhh.....the humanity!


----------



## ButtPunch

farsidejunky said:


> Two words:
> 
> Wooden block
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


The body will sink better with a concrete block.


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> If you say it like that, you'll never get to the major issue.
> 
> Try it like this-
> "When you tell me to read the manual, I feel disrespected."
> ...
> "When you won't help me pull the manual out of my butt, I feel like you don't care about my pain."


How about "oh ya, that's why I leave my glass on the counter all the time."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

omg... ya'll are cracking me up


----------



## farsidejunky

ButtPunch said:


> When you load the dishwasher incorrectly, I feel disrespected. Chemical toxins from the plastics are getting into our children's bodies. This is a life safety issue. Ohhhh.....the humanity!


Does she feed the whole family with machine washed dishes...or just you?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> Does she feed the whole family with machine washed dishes...or just you?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


"You slowly poisoning me to death by leaching toxins into my body is really making me feel disrespected."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

marduk said:


> "You slowly poisoning me to death by leaching toxins into my body is really making me feel disrespected."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now you're getting it! Even if she doesn't think poisoning you is a big deal, YOU think it is, so she should respect that!


----------



## ButtPunch

marduk said:


> "You slowly poisoning me to death by leaching toxins into my body is really making me feel disrespected."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly....I get cancer and she get's my life insurance. I still haven't figured out how she is purifying her drinking containers though?


----------



## Marduk

OpenWindows said:


> Now you're getting it! Even if she doesn't think poisoning you is a big deal, YOU think it is, so she should respect that!


I can hear her response now.

"If you loved me, you'd hurry up and die without complaining about it."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> JLD don't be so sure about that If he loves and honors you as you say you could hurt him deeply He may be very good at hiding it
> 
> My sense is,you would never hurt him in any meaningful way I just don't think you have it in you
> 
> 55


Of course I don't. I love him very much.

And I love my family. Why would I ever hurt my family?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> I can hear her response now.
> 
> "If you loved me, you'd hurry up and die without complaining about it."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Of course I don't. I love him very much.
> 
> And I love my family. Why would I ever hurt my family?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it causes a desired affect that is in their best interests. 

ie... spanking a child is FOR him not against him when it is ethically done. Some would argue spanking is ethical at all, but I know there have been times my son didn't get the message any other way. I subscribe to "as soft as possible but as firm as necessary" prescription.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Blossom Leigh said:


> If it causes a desired affect that is in their best interests.
> 
> ie... spanking a child is FOR him not against him when it is ethically done. Some would argue spanking is ethical at all, but I know there have been times my son didn't get the message any other way. I subscribe to "as soft as possible but as firm as necessary" prescription.


Nooooo! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I believe that was pretty much what I was told.
> 
> Even though the catalog clearly states that knives should point up and that no plastics on the bottom shelf. It doesn't take an engineering degree folks. The heat from the bottom shelf can disrupt the molecular make-up of certain plastics especially those that aren't dishwasher safe. Remember the big BPA scare.


What is the risk?

Sometimes I put plastic on the bottom . . .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I call BS.
> 
> Since when do men read catalogues or instruction manuals?


Engineers do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> If it causes a desired affect that is in their best interests.
> 
> ie... spanking a child is FOR him not against him when it is ethically done. Some would argue spanking is ethical at all, but I know there have been times my son didn't get the message any other way. I subscribe to "as soft as possible but as firm as necessary" prescription.


What if it's my wife that deserves the spanking and she's being very disrespectful about accepting that?

I mean, she won't even go get the hairbrush or anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> Going forward, if you stop putting up with too much, the rest falls into place better. You'll weed out the guys who don't care, and the one who do care will respect your boundaries if you make them clear.


Totally agree. The biggest mistake women make is not being picky enough at the beginning. Let him win you over. Remember that song that said he will sleep out in the rain if that is the way you say it should be?

That is what I am advising my daughter, anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Totally agree. The biggest mistake women make is not being picky enough at the beginning. Let him win you over. Remember that song that said he will sleep out in the rain if that is the way you say it should be?
> 
> That is what I am advising my daughter, anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not sure why anyone would want THAT. In a love song, it is purely rhetorical. I would not want someone who had no NUTs.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> what if it's my wife that deserves the spanking and she's being very disrespectful about accepting that?
> 
> I mean, she won't even go get the hairbrush or anything.
> _posted via mobile device_


lololll!!!!


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure why anyone would want THAT. In a love song, it is purely rhetorical. I would not want someone who had no NUTs.


If women wanted men with NUTs, then why do they spend so much effort trying to castrate them.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> If women wanted men with NUTs, then why do they spend so much effort trying to castrate them.


You can't castrate a man with NUTs.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure why anyone would want THAT. In a love song, it is purely rhetorical. I would not want someone who had no NUTs.


I had no idea before TAM that doing what a wife wanted would be a concern to anyone. Maybe it has been taken to an extreme by some women, but most women I know would love that kind of influence in their marriage. I don't think I know even one woman IRL, including myself, who would object to having her opinions and preferences considered and prioritized.

Honestly, I think that kind of thinking has to be pushed pretty hard to get it even some of the time.

And if you are not being treated like that at the beginning, good luck after kids come.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I had no idea before TAM that doing what a wife wanted would be a concern to anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... he will sleep out in the rain if that is the way you say it should be
Click to expand...


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> You can't castrate a man with NUTs.


That is the problem. But they keep trying.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> That is the problem. But they keep trying.


How would you know? You've never stood up for your NUTs.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Totally agree. The biggest mistake women make is not being picky enough at the beginning. Let him win you over. Remember that song that said he will sleep out in the rain if that is the way you say it should be?
> 
> That is what I am advising my daughter, anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes!!!! Bait and Switch is very unfair. Glad you are teaching your daughters.

Biggest mistake men make is going into a marriage thinking there wives aren't going to change.


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> How would you know? You've never stood up for your NUTs.


If I had no NUTs there would be no pain. 

The amount of pain is directly as a result of my HUGE NUTS that I am trying to hang onto.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> Nooooo! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


LOL...Please don't tell me I am the only one here that believes in spanking.


----------



## Evinrude58

jld said:


> Of course I don't. I love him very much.
> 
> And I love my family. Why would I ever hurt my family?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because people change and evolve and all that bs.....

Careful jld, you might say something incriminating and accidentally agree with me.😊
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Yes!!!! Bait and Switch is very unfair. Glad you are teaching your daughters.
> 
> Biggest mistake men make is going into a marriage thinking there wives aren't going to change.


I have one very intelligent daughter. I want her to be with a man who realizes her worth and does not take her for granted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

jld said:


> I have one very intelligent daughter. I want her to be with a man who realizes her worth and does not take her for granted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As for her other, unintelligent daughters... meh.


I'm joking, don't shoot!! :wink2:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

yea, that almost came across bad didn't it.. lol


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> As for her other, unintelligent daughters... meh.
> 
> 
> I'm joking, don't shoot!! :wink2:


I have four boys, too. I am advising them to _look beyond the packaging!_

I really believe women have to be picky. Get a good education, pursue success in a career. Let the man find you. It is so easy to be taken advantage of, otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I have four boys, too. I am advising them to _look beyond the packaging!_
> 
> I really believe women have to be picky. Get a good education, pursue success in a career. Let the man find you. It is so easy to be taken advantage of, otherwise.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can't disagree and yet ....

Check
Check
Check
Check
Check

Still had problems..... :grin2:

That's exactly what my mother preached to me


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Totally agree. The biggest mistake women make is not being picky enough at the beginning. Let him win you over. Remember that song that said he will sleep out in the rain if that is the way you say it should be?
> 
> That is what I am advising my daughter, anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd tell my daughter to stay away from any guy that would be led around like that. Ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> If I had no NUTs there would be no pain.
> 
> The amount of pain is directly as a result of my HUGE NUTS that I am trying to hang onto.


I KNOW this has been recommended to you. 

Robot Check

I was not talking about your testicles.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Engineers do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_












Well, there's your problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Can't disagree and yet ....
> 
> Check
> Check
> Check
> Check
> Check
> 
> Still had problems..... :grin2:
> 
> That's exactly what my mother preached to me


No guarantees. But we mothers try our best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

Blossom Leigh said:


> LOL...Please don't tell me I am the only one here that believes in spanking.


As a person who has spent time in parenting forums, heed my warnings. This is where angels fear to tread!

I don't know about anyone else on here. I don't have any "belief" about spanking. I *think* they are one of the lesser effective tools in the parenting box. I did not choose to add it to my toolbox at all. But ... we can take it to the parenting forum if you like. But I was entirely being goofy.

It IS a little funny that you chose child rearing as a metaphor for raising a husband.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> No guarantees. But we mothers try our best.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:nerd:


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I'd tell my daughter to stay away from any guy that would be led around like that. Ugh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If he won't listen to the woman during courtship, he certainly won't listen after.

I really do not get the objection to this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> I KNOW this has been recommended to you.
> 
> Robot Check
> 
> I was not talking about your testicles.


I was aware of that. I have read that book. 

No match for the book my wife wrote, "Squeeze-His-NUTs- Relationship Manual"


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> As a person who has spent time in parenting forums, heed my warnings. This is where angels fear to tread!
> 
> I don't know about anyone else on here. I don't have any "belief" about spanking. I *think* they are one of the lesser effective tools in the parenting box. I did not choose to add it to my toolbox at all. But ... we can take it to the parenting forum if you like. But I was entirely being goofy.
> 
> It IS a little funny that you chose child rearing as a metaphor for raising a husband.


I wanted to make a joke about locking my kids in the cellar, but was not sure how that would go over . . . would never actually do that, folks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Blossom Leigh said:


> LOL...Please don't tell me I am the only one here that believes in spanking.


Course not

My Gf loves it


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> As a person who has spent time in parenting forums, heed my warnings. This is where angels fear to tread!
> 
> I don't know about anyone else on here. I don't have any "belief" about spanking. I *think* they are one of the lesser effective tools in the parenting box. I did not choose to add it to my toolbox at all. But ... we can take it to the parenting forum if you like. But I was entirely being goofy.
> 
> It IS a little funny that you chose child rearing as a metaphor for raising a husband.


lol... it wasn't about raising a husband. jld had said why would she cause her family pain. I could have thrown anything out there as an example it was just the easiest example. Exposure of a wayward is another, etc. :grin2: I could have used a horse example too  I didn't raise my husband, but my boundaries did mature him. Just sharing the idea of inflicting pain "for" that person ... like allowing an addict to go to jail... that kind of stuff.

We reserve spanking at our house with our son for absolute last resort UNLESS my son has developed a habit of non responsiveness, then when he least expects it I get him out of the blue. Works every time. But yes, we are VERY sparing with it by design.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I was aware of that. I have read that book.
> 
> No match for the book my wife wrote, "Squeeze-His-NUTs- Relationship Manual"


Can you describe the problem in a nutshell?

Can't you just say No when you have to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> If he won't listen to the woman during courtship, he certainly won't listen after.
> 
> I really do not get the objection to this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would Dug have slept in the rain for you just because you said that's the way it should be?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@NobodySpecial You are absolutely right. It IS where angels fear to tread. Fully believe that.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Would Dug have slept in the rain for you just because you said that's the way it should be?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not literally, Marduk. The idea is that the man takes the woman's wishes into account, and not just his own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Not literally, Marduk. The idea is that the man takes the woman's wishes into account, and not just his own.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree... All I want is to be considered.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Not literally, Marduk. The idea is that the man takes the woman's wishes into account, and not just his own.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm beginning to understand Dug's confusion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I'm beginning to understand Dug's confusion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Communication can be confusing, I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Communication can be confusing, I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps you need to write an operating manual for him to read.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame

If I were programmed in assembly language, my H would totally get me.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Agree... All I want is to be considered.


Sometimes I straight out want my way, too. But both Dug and I will give in for the good of the family.

Maybe I need to bring this up to him, that giving me attention serves the overall interest of the family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Can you describe the problem in a nutshell?


I leave a glass in the sink.



> Can't you just say No when you have to?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She says, why should I have to clean up after you. You are so lazy Blah Blah Blah

I say, sorry, I will try not to forget.

Then she says No to intimacy for the next 3 weeks.


----------



## Marduk

alte Dame said:


> If I were programmed in assembly language, my H would totally get me.


It depends, are you big or little endian?

Sorry, old assembly programming joke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I leave a glass in the sink.
> 
> 
> 
> She says, why should I have to clean up after you. You are so lazy Blah Blah Blah
> 
> I say, sorry, I will try not to forget.
> 
> Then she says No to intimacy for the next 3 weeks.


And when you laugh at her for refusing awesome sex with you, and go do other things that are fun for 3 weeks until she's asking you for sex, what happens?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Then she says No to intimacy for the next 3 weeks.


She does not feel the desire to be close to you?

That was another shocker for me on TAM. Had no idea there were so many sexless marriages.

You could try what Dug does with me, Sam. Keep her half-starved for attention and affection, to where she would not think of turning down a chance to be close to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> She does not feel the desire to be close to you?
> 
> That was another shocker for me on TAM. Had no idea there were so many sexless marriages.
> 
> You could try what Dug does with me, Sam. Keep her half-starved for attention and affection, to where she would not think of turning down a chance to be close to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ouch. 

@Dug man, c'mon, you're getting killed here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> And when you laugh at her for refusing awesome sex with you, and go do other things that are fun for 3 weeks until she's asking you for sex, what happens?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She remains cold and angry. She finds more 'glass in the sink' things.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I leave a glass in the sink.
> 
> 
> 
> She says, why should I have to clean up after you. You are so lazy Blah Blah Blah
> 
> I say, sorry, I will try not to forget.
> 
> Then she says No to intimacy for the next 3 weeks.


See I don't like that at all... she is using her intimacy as a weapon. Not cool. I have NEVER done that to either husband.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> She remains cold and angry. She finds more 'glass in the sink' things.


Sounds like you need the books Emotional Blackmail and Boundaries.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> She remains cold and angry. She finds more 'glass in the sink' things.


Emotional terrorism.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Sometimes I straight out want my way, too. But both Dug and I will give in for the good of the family.
> 
> Maybe I need to bring this up to him, that giving me attention serves the overall interest of the family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds too much like selling him on the idea. It's not the route I would take.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> Emotional terrorism.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree 

Boundaries.... nip it in the bud!


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sounds too much like selling him on the idea. It's not the route I would take.


Why not?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> She does not feel the desire to be close to you?
> 
> That was another shocker for me on TAM. Had no idea there were so many sexless marriages.
> 
> You could try what Dug does with me, Sam. Keep her half-starved for attention and affection, to where she would not think of turning down a chance to be close to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This has the opposite affect on my wife. 

If she turns me down and I just go about life and do other things. Give her no attention or affection. Then it gets worse. 

Her attitude is why would I feel like being close to you when you never talk to me.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Why not?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds too much like....

See, aren't I worth buying?

No Ma'am

You are already worth buying.... own it.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> This has the opposite affect on my wife.
> 
> If she turns me down and I just go about life and do other things. Give her no attention or affection. Then it gets worse.
> 
> Her attitude is why would I feel like being close to you when you never talk to me.


And what exactly does this gem of a wife bring to the table?

Except exacting standards in kitchen hygene, I mean?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> This has the opposite affect on my wife.
> 
> If she turns me down and I just go about life and do other things. Give her no attention or affection. Then it gets worse.
> 
> Her attitude is why would I feel like being close to you when you never talk to me.


Well, she's not needy. That is probably something you really like about her, no?


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> And what exactly does this gem of a wife bring to the table?
> 
> Except exacting standards in kitchen hygene, I mean?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is beautiful
She works out every day
She is a good cook
She shops a lot but she is very frugal
She was a great mom
Very hard worker. Never sits down.

When we getting along, we have a great time. We like doing the same things. We golf together in the summer. We both like walking down the beach. We both like snow skiing in the winter. We both like going out for suppers. We both like watching renovation/decorating shows.

When we were in Toronto for a week we got along great. She says it is because we were talking to each other a bunch. I say it was because we were being intimate a bunch.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> She is beautiful
> She works out every day
> She is a good cook
> She shops a lot but she is very frugal
> She was a great mom
> Very hard worker. Never sits down.
> 
> When we getting along, we have a great time. We like doing the same things. We golf together in the summer. We both like walking down the beach. We both like snow skiing in the winter. We both like going out for suppers. We both like watching renovation/decorating shows.
> 
> When we were in Toronto for a week we got along great. She says it is because we were talking to each other a bunch. I say it was because we were being intimate a bunch.


Keep up the talking. That should keep up the intimacy.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Well, she's not needy. That is probably something you really like about her, no?


I would like to be needed


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I would like to be needed


Have you shared that with her?


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> She is beautiful
> She works out every day
> She is a good cook
> She shops a lot but she is very frugal
> She was a great mom
> Very hard worker. Never sits down.
> 
> When we getting along, we have a great time. We like doing the same things. We golf together in the summer. We both like walking down the beach. We both like snow skiing in the winter. We both like going out for suppers. We both like watching renovation/decorating shows.
> 
> When we were in Toronto for a week we got along great. She says it is because we were talking to each other a bunch. I say it was because we were being intimate a bunch.


Ok she's hot and disciplined. 

And what do you bring to the table?

And how did you manage to get laid in Toronto? It's Toronto. 

Do that more. Except go someplace nice. Like... Anywhere else.


----------



## giddiot

If I put a glass in the sink my wife is proud of me, If I put it by the sink she is proud of me because at least I didn't leave it on the coaster. Now if I try to put that in the dishwasher my wife will be unhappy with me because "I do not know how to load a dishwasher correctly" and she would have to take everything out and rearrange it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Keep up the talking. That should keep up the intimacy.


I am terrible at talking. I run a business that is quite technical. She has no interest in it at all. So what happens during the day creates very little in regards to things we can talk about.

She can be very critical. She talks down to me. Her tone of voice can often discourage conversation. Sometimes I think she talks mean to put space between us. Then later she can say that she doesn't feel like being intimate because I haven't been talking to her.

I agree though. I need to talk more. I have a habit of being grumpy and avoiding her after being rejected and not being intimate for a couple of weeks.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

giddiot said:


> If I put a glass in the sink my wife is proud of me, If I put it by the sink she is proud of me because at least I didn't leave it on the coaster. Now if I try to put that in the dishwasher my wife will be unhappy with me because "I do not know how to load a dishwasher correctly" and she would have to take everything out and rearrange it.


There are times I rearrange what my H put in there to fit more in, but I DO NOT make him feel bad for that.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> I leave a glass in the sink.
> 
> 
> 
> She says, why should I have to clean up after you. You are so lazy Blah Blah Blah
> 
> I say, sorry, I will try not to forget.


No NUTs. 


> Then she says No to intimacy for the next 3 weeks.


Super no NUTs.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I am terrible at talking. I run a business that is quite technical. She has no interest in it at all. So what happens during the day creates very little in regards to things we can talk about.
> 
> She can be very critical. She talks down to me. Her tone of voice can often discourage conversation. Sometimes I think she talks mean to put space between us. Then later she can say that she doesn't feel like being intimate because I haven't been talking to her.
> 
> I agree though. I need to talk more. I have a habit of being grumpy and avoiding her after being rejected and not being intimate for a couple of weeks.


Self righteous porcupine. Not attractive to men.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I am terrible at talking. I run a business that is quite technical. She has no interest in it at all. So what happens during the day creates very little in regards to things we can talk about.
> 
> She can be very critical. She talks down to me. Her tone of voice can often discourage conversation. Sometimes I think she talks mean to put space between us. Then later she can say that she doesn't feel like being intimate because I haven't been talking to her.
> 
> I agree though. I need to talk more. I have a habit of being grumpy and avoiding her after being rejected and not being intimate for a couple of weeks.


Talk to her about her day. Talk about what interests her. Give her that attention.

Ignore the tone. Just focus on her interests. That should warm her up and make her feel close to you.

For best results, drop the grumpiness and avoidance. Just relax and focus on listening and connecting.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> There are times I rearrange what my H put in there to fit more in, but I DO NOT make him feel bad for that.


What would happen if you did make him feel bad?


----------



## jld

BlueWoman said:


> I have a lot of feelings about this thread.
> Mostly it makes me sad. Because, I get that it wasn't just about the glass in my marriage. And most women and a few men on this thread get it as well.
> 
> But most men and a few women, don't seem to get it. And I wonder, am I doomed?
> 
> Because I have to say, I resent like hell, how much of the small stuff I put up with, for so little pay off. Because enough small stuff becomes big. And it becomes exhausting. And I wonder why I put up with it for so long? But with so many men, not seeing it, I think that I'm stuck being single because the odds of find a guy who doesn't resent me for wanting my home to not feel like chaos and to not want to spend my precious free time cleaning up after him in an effort not to have my home chaotic, is pretty low.


Matt is learning. I bet more guys are going to be learning the importance of emotional connection, as women get more education and make more money. Emotional connection is what marriage is going to be all about in the future.

BW, you need to feel good in yourself. It is better to feel good alone than miserable with someone.


----------



## alte Dame

marduk said:


> It depends, are you big or little endian?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Beats me, M. I'm more of a predicate calculus type of gal .


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> What would happen if you did make him feel bad?


He would be confused, because I give him a green light to help, but give him a red light when he actually does.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> Ok she's hot and disciplined.
> 
> And what do you bring to the table?
> 
> And how did you manage to get laid in Toronto? It's Toronto.
> 
> Do that more. Except go someplace nice. Like... Anywhere else.



I work full time. Run my own business. She has been able to stay at home since the kids were born and is able to not have to work now that they are grown. We met at college and came from lower to middle class families.

We have a large house with a four car garage. We both drive BMWs.  We own a vacation property in the mountains where she is now with our kids.

We go on a few vacations a year. Including a few trips to the mountains, we also spent weeks in Vancouver, Toronto and Mexico last year. We have been to Hawaii a few times. Dominican Republic. Planning Tahiti in September for her 50th. We have been trying to see places in Canada since the dollar is so low. We actually loved Toronto/Niagra Falls in the summer.

She has full access to all our accounts. She can spend whatever she wants. She is frugal though. She shops a lot and buys quite a bit, but always on sale.

I plan all our vacations. I try to get her involved, but she just wants me to do it.

I pay all our bills. She was supposed to but she typically forgets so I do it.

I handle all our investments, insurance, etc. She met with our financial planner once, but doesn't like to.

She has no idea how much money we have saved or how much we spend each month.

I plan all our date nights. 

I initiate all affection

I initiate all sex

We renovated our first home from top to bottom. I did most of the work myself. She did help. Same with the second home. Our current home is pretty new and I still do handyman things when needed but we also pay people to some things that I used to do myself. 

I mow the lawn and some weeding. She does most of the flower bed stuff.

I work from about 7 to 5. Home every night if I am not playing golf or squash.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> He would be confused, because I give him a green light to help, but give him a red light when he actually does.


And then?


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I work full time. Run my own business. She has been able to stay at home since the kids were born and is able to not have to work now that they are grown. We met at college and came from lower to middle class families.
> 
> We have a large house with a four car garage. We both drive BMWs. We own a vacation property in the mountains where she is now with our kids.
> 
> We go on a few vacations a year. Including a few trips to the mountains, we also spent weeks in Vancouver, Toronto and Mexico last year. We have been to Hawaii a few times. Dominican Republic. Planning Tahiti in September for her 50th. We have been trying to see places in Canada since the dollar is so low. We actually loved Toronto/Niagra Falls in the summer.
> 
> She has full access to all our accounts. She can spend whatever she wants. She is frugal though. She shops a lot and buys quite a bit, but always on sale.
> 
> I plan all our vacations. I try to get her involved, but she just wants me to do it.
> 
> I pay all our bills. She was supposed to but she typically forgets so I do it.
> 
> I handle all our investments, insurance, etc. She met with our financial planner once, but doesn't like to.
> 
> She has no idea how much money we have saved or how much we spend each month.
> 
> I plan all our date nights.
> 
> I initiate all affection
> 
> I initiate all sex
> 
> We renovated our first home from top to bottom. I did most of the work myself. She did help. Same with the second home. Our current home is pretty new and I still do handyman things when needed but we also pay people to some things that I used to do myself.
> 
> I mow the lawn and some weeding. She does most of the flower bed stuff.
> 
> I work from about 7 to 5. Home every night if I am not playing golf or squash.


Hmm. This kind of reminds me of @UMP. 

UMP, do you have any advice for Sam?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> And then?


Depends 
@jld Sometimes I will catching him silently studying how I do things. He still wants to please me. I just don't require him to. Makes him want to. The only thing I required was no abuse.


----------



## OpenWindows

SadSamIAm said:


> I work full time. Run my own business. She has been able to stay at home since the kids were born and is able to not have to work now that they are grown. We met at college and came from lower to middle class families.
> 
> We have a large house with a four car garage. We both drive BMWs. We own a vacation property in the mountains where she is now with our kids.
> 
> We go on a few vacations a year. Including a few trips to the mountains, we also spent weeks in Vancouver, Toronto and Mexico last year. We have been to Hawaii a few times. Dominican Republic. Planning Tahiti in September for her 50th. We have been trying to see places in Canada since the dollar is so low. We actually loved Toronto/Niagra Falls in the summer.
> 
> She has full access to all our accounts. She can spend whatever she wants. She is frugal though. She shops a lot and buys quite a bit, but always on sale.
> 
> I plan all our vacations. I try to get her involved, but she just wants me to do it.
> 
> I pay all our bills. She was supposed to but she typically forgets so I do it.
> 
> I handle all our investments, insurance, etc. She met with our financial planner once, but doesn't like to.
> 
> She has no idea how much money we have saved or how much we spend each month.
> 
> I plan all our date nights.
> 
> I initiate all affection
> 
> I initiate all sex
> 
> We renovated our first home from top to bottom. I did most of the work myself. She did help. Same with the second home. Our current home is pretty new and I still do handyman things when needed but we also pay people to some things that I used to do myself.
> 
> I mow the lawn and some weeding. She does most of the flower bed stuff.
> 
> I work from about 7 to 5. Home every night if I am not playing golf or squash.



Most of this is about money. Is that money very important to her? Does it make her feel fulfilled?

Do you think quality time spent together is a big thing or a small thing to her? To you?


----------



## SadSamIAm

OpenWindows said:


> Most of this is about money. Is that money very important to her? Does it make her feel fulfilled?


She likes the fact that she doesn't have to work. I think she takes it for granted. I think she takes a bunch of what I do for granted. 

I have heard comments like how can you sit around at night when all do all day is sit around.

I don't know what makes her fulfilled. I know that she loves being a mother. She still does too much mothering. We have two at home that are in university. She makes their lunches, does their laundry, she spends most nights baking things for them. 

I have asked her if she would like to go to school, get a job, volunteer somewhere. She has no interest. I think that if she had something more meaningful to do, she might be happier.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> She likes the fact that she doesn't have to work. I think she takes it for granted. I think she takes a bunch of what I do for granted.
> 
> I have heard comments like how can you sit around at night when all do all day is sit around.
> 
> I don't know what makes her fulfilled. I know that she loves being a mother. She still does too much mothering. We have two at home that are in university. She makes their lunches, does their laundry, she spends most nights baking things for them.
> 
> I have asked her if she would like to go to school, get a job, volunteer somewhere. She has no interest. I think that if she had something more meaningful to do, she might be happier.


Do they do for themselves too?


----------



## OpenWindows

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't know what makes her fulfilled.


And here is what you need to focus on. This is important information! 

You need to know what makes her feel fulfilled and happy. Then you can at least aim in that general direction. Otherwise, you might find yourself burning a lot of energy giving her things that aren't really important to her.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do they do for themselves too?


Yes, they do. But they could do more around the house.

My daughter cleans houses while going to university. She started a year ago when she took a year off after high school. She works very hard. She gets good marks.

My son worked all summer at a golf course. He is in second year of business. Has a 3.9 average. Has gotten a few scholarships. He could do more around the house. 

They both have cars that we bought for them. We pay for all their books and tuition. So they are pretty lucky. They are all good with their money.


----------



## SadSamIAm

OpenWindows said:


> And here is what you need to focus on. This is important information!
> 
> You need to know what makes her feel fulfilled and happy. Then you can at least aim in that general direction. Otherwise, you might find yourself burning a lot of energy giving her things that aren't really important to her.


I agree, but I don't know what more I can do than suggest. 

We have talked about buying a property to renovate. She is very good at decorating (she took interior decorating in college). She would work hard at it. There would be a lot of pressure on me to help and I feel busy enough with the business. Also, the economy is bad right now.


----------



## Evinrude58

SadSamIAm said:


> I work full time. Run my own business. She has been able to stay at home since the kids were born and is able to not have to work now that they are grown. We met at college and came from lower to middle class families.
> 
> We have a large house with a four car garage. We both drive BMWs. We own a vacation property in the mountains where she is now with our kids.
> 
> We go on a few vacations a year. Including a few trips to the mountains, we also spent weeks in Vancouver, Toronto and Mexico last year. We have been to Hawaii a few times. Dominican Republic. Planning Tahiti in September for her 50th. We have been trying to see places in Canada since the dollar is so low. We actually loved Toronto/Niagra Falls in the summer.
> 
> She has full access to all our accounts. She can spend whatever she wants. She is frugal though. She shops a lot and buys quite a bit, but always on sale.
> 
> I plan all our vacations. I try to get her involved, but she just wants me to do it.
> 
> I pay all our bills. She was supposed to but she typically forgets so I do it.
> 
> I handle all our investments, insurance, etc. She met with our financial planner once, but doesn't like to.
> 
> She has no idea how much money we have saved or how much we spend each month.
> 
> I plan all our date nights.
> 
> I initiate all affection
> 
> I initiate all sex
> 
> We renovated our first home from top to bottom. I did most of the work myself. She did help. Same with the second home. Our current home is pretty new and I still do handyman things when needed but we also pay people to some things that I used to do myself.
> 
> I mow the lawn and some weeding. She does most of the flower bed stuff.
> 
> I work from about 7 to 5. Home every night if I am not playing golf or squash.


And this is the woman that gives little sex??? Geez, she is hard to please, must be super low drive. You have a great life-- just one thing missing....

You sound like a great husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

Sam,

The only thing I ever read that was positive about me that my trashy ex tweeted in the months she was cheating is that she liked when after church one Sunday, I grabbed her and tore her clothes off and leaned her over the bed and had my way with her. She looked nice that Sunday, as always, and I wanted her. This was before she told me she wanted a divorce and before I had any worries, but she was sexting other men at the time unbeknownst to me.
I personally though at the time that I was kinda selfish with that, but of all things, she liked a freaking quickie.
My point--- maybe you're trying too hard. Maybe she'd like you to just walk in and take her one day, and it would be quick and no pressure on her to please you. No time for no....
I'm sure you thought about it... Just a suggestion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

Evinrude58 said:


> And this is the woman that gives little sex??? Geez, she is hard to please, must be super low drive. You have a great life-- just one thing missing....
> 
> You sound like a great husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks. 

We had some issues when the kids were teenagers. 

She grew up in a home where her father never trusted her. She was not allowed to do much. I grew up in a home where I was pretty much allowed to do what I wanted. 

The kids and her were great when they were young. When they became teenagers they didn't like her bossing them around. She didn't think I backed her up enough. I had a hard time being tough on things that I didn't agree with. 

A bunch of the fighting happened while I was at work. The kids never talk back to me. When I give them hell, they know it. 

She resents me for this. 

I know I should have had her back more. I wish I could do it over. She feels like she always had to be the bad guy.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Evinrude58 said:


> Sam,
> 
> The only thing I ever read that was positive about me that my trashy ex tweeted in the months she was cheating is that she liked when after church one Sunday, I grabbed her and tore her clothes off and leaned her over the bed and had my way with her. She looked nice that Sunday, as always, and I wanted her. This was before she told me she wanted a divorce and before I had any worries, but she was sexting other men at the time unbeknownst to me.
> I personally though at the time that I was kinda selfish with that, but of all things, she liked a freaking quickie.
> My point--- maybe you're trying too hard. Maybe she'd like you to just walk in and take her one day, and it would be quick and no pressure on her to please you. No time for no....
> I'm sure you thought about it... Just a suggestion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has responsive desire. I have tried things like this and it does not go over well with her. It takes her a while to warm up. But when she gets going we can get pretty kinky at times. 

Like I have said, when we are getting along well it can be very good.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> She has responsive desire. I have tried things like this and it does not go over well with her. It takes her a while to warm up. But when she gets going we can get pretty kinky at times.
> 
> Like I have said, when we are getting along well it can be very good.


How about going and talking to her right now about something that interests her?


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> This has the opposite affect on my wife.
> 
> If she turns me down and I just go about life and do other things. Give her no attention or affection. Then it gets worse.
> 
> Her attitude is why would I feel like being close to you when you never talk to me.


There are more women like your wife than people would have you think. (IOW me.)

Pushing me away causes me to become more independent and less emotionally attached.

Kindness and attentiveness, even after a spat, go a LONG way.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> How about going and talking to her right now about something that interests her?


She is in the mountains. She will be home tomorrow. 

I told her I couldn't go with her because business is too busy. From the middle of January to the end of February is our busiest time. I really can't be away.

I texted her the day after she left that I missed her and wished I was there. Her response was "then you should have came". I can tell she was mad I wasn't going. 

Whenever she is away, she never initiates texting. Just like at home she never initiates conversation. She just complains that I don't.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> There are more women like your wife than people would have you think. (IOW me.)
> 
> Pushing me away causes me to become more independent and less emotionally attached.
> 
> Kindness and attentiveness, even after a spat, go a LONG way.


But is always only one way. Me approaching her. And often her just continuing to be angry. Whether it is my fault or hers or some each. She is never the first to apologize. 

After we are cold to each other for three weeks I eventually give in. We end up hugging, talking and making love. Then she will often say how lucky she is that I am so patient and how I understand her so well. We are then good for a couple of days until some small thing ticks her off or I try to show affection. Then we are off on another month of fighting. 

Not been a great life the last couple of years. It is getting worse not better. She thinks she might be going through menopause.


----------



## Evinrude58

This seems stupid, but have you considered recording yourself immediately after a good period and seeing if you can figure out where things are taking a turn? It seems like a rough life having to constantly wonder what gets her mad. You can't show her affection???? How can she expect you to keep trying?

I see your frustration. I'm frustrated just reading about it. Inconsistency is impossible to deal with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> But is always only one way. Me approaching her. And often her just continuing to be angry. Whether it is my fault or hers or some each. She is never the first to apologize.
> 
> After we are cold to each other for three weeks I eventually give in. We end up hugging, talking and making love. Then she will often say how lucky she is that I am so patient and how I understand her so well. We are then good for a couple of days until some small thing ticks her off or I try to show affection. Then we are off on another month of fighting.
> 
> Not been a great life the last couple of years. It is getting worse not better. She thinks she might be going through menopause.


How about giving in earlier?

For the recent text, how about just saying, "I really wish I could have come. It is a pleasure to spend time with people I love." Patient, kind, sincere replies can soften hearts and build goodwill.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Another issue we have is sex rank. When we met I was the captain of the Volleyball team in college. I was 6 feet tall, 180 lbs and very fit. Was probably an 7.5 or 8. 

She was probably an 8. She wasn't into fitness but she was slim. She puts a lot of effort into her hair and makeup. 

Once college was over I started working in an office and not playing organized sports. When we got married 5 years later I weighed 200 pounds.

For the first 20 years of our marriage my wife wasn't into fitness. We ate what I call typical foods. Fairly healthy, but the odd pizza. Meat, potatoes, rice, etc. I played squash 3 times a week, but like having beer and wings afterwards as well as the exercise. 

The last 10 years my wife has gotten into fitness. She works out 4 mornings a week for a couple of hours. She eats only healthy food. She is 49 and looks like 39. 

I am 52. Have grey hair. Am balding. Now weigh 210 pounds. Probably look closer to 60 than 50.

She went from an 8 to a 9. I went from an 8 to a 6!

She wants to eat quino and work out and live forever. I want to eat what I like, exercise a bit and enjoy life. I know she would like it if I ate better and worked out more. This is something I need to do. Just business is busy and I don't have the energy. I have arthritis in my hip which also makes it tough. 

Just trying to give a balanced view. I know I should be better.


----------



## jld

I bet that is not as big a deal as you think. Try focusing on her emotional needs. That is where you will see the quickest results.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> How about giving in earlier?
> 
> For the recent text, how about just saying, "I really wish I could have come. It is a pleasure to spend time with people I love." Patient, kind, sincere replies can soften hearts and build goodwill.


I just read the text messages. What I actually said was "I Love You and miss you. I wish I was there skiing with you." Her reply was "well you chose not to". 

I know you don't agree, but softening hearts and build goodwill should go both ways. 

After years of being the only one to reach out and often getting kicked in the NUTS, makes it hard to continue doing so.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Sorry everyone for turning this pretty good discussion into a thread jack about my situation.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I just read the text messages. What I actually said was "I Love You and miss you. I wish I was there skiing with you." Her reply was "well you chose not to".
> 
> I know you don't agree, but softening hearts and build goodwill should go both ways.
> 
> After years of being the only one to reach out and often getting kicked in the NUTS, makes it hard to continue doing so.


I know. It would be easier if she were to step up, too. 

But I do not know how to get her to do that. The only thing I can think of is for you to set the example.

How about, "You really felt hurt that I did not come, too." That could make her feel like you heard her. It seems like a small thing, but it might start a healing conversation, if she feels her feelings are being acknowledged.


----------



## OpenWindows

SadSamIAm said:


> I just read the text messages. What I actually said was "I Love You and miss you. I wish I was there skiing with you." Her reply was "well you chose not to".
> 
> I know you don't agree, but softening hearts and build goodwill should go both ways.
> 
> After years of being the only one to reach out and often getting kicked in the NUTS, makes it hard to continue doing so.


She's hurt because you turned her down. She wanted to spend time with you. I've seen a few examples here of you turning down time with her to do something else. She wants to be together and talk to you, and whenever you decline, more distance is created between you. I wonder if she feels like these work obligations and things you need to do are more important to you then she is.

Is quality time her love language?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sometimes you can't always get away. Our company is super busy in January too. 

Are there times where you do cut away to be with her?


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> I am 52. Have grey hair. Am balding. Now weigh 210 pounds. Probably look closer to 60 than 50.


I know this is of minimal help. SHAVE IT. Bald is HOT.


----------



## UMP

SadSamIAm said:


> She is in the mountains. She will be home tomorrow.
> 
> I told her I couldn't go with her because business is too busy. From the middle of January to the end of February is our busiest time. I really can't be away.
> 
> I texted her the day after she left that I missed her and wished I was there. Her response was "then you should have came". I can tell she was mad I wasn't going.
> 
> Whenever she is away, she never initiates texting. Just like at home she never initiates conversation. She just complains that I don't.


IMO, this is all on her. She does not even know how much money you have or what it costs you to pay the bills and then complains when you have to stay home and work !!!! WTF? Money does not grow on trees.

She needs a wake up call. She sounds like an entitled princess.
My wife got a little like this and I sat her down and said, more or less "hey, I know you like your lifestyle, nice car, nice house, no work, do whatever you want to do, but I want great sex. If you are not at least willing to work at this and have sex at least twice a week I am crazy enough to implode our entire life. If you don't think so, go ahead and test me."

On my behalf I really studied up on how to please my wife sexually speaking. She takes a LOOOOONG time to warm up, so I warm her up. She takes a while to cum, so I take my time. However, there is that sweet spot when I know I'm doing it ALL right and she becomes one with me. That moment lasts me a long time and I reflect on that during the difficult times.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

UMP said:


> IMO, this is all on her. She does not even know how much money you have or what it costs you to pay the bills and then complains when you have to stay home and work !!!! WTF? Money does not grow on trees.
> 
> She needs a wake up call. She sounds like an entitled princess.
> My wife got a little like this and I sat her down and said, more or less "hey, I know you like your lifestyle, nice car, nice house, no work, do whatever you want to do, but I want great sex. If you are not at least willing to work at this and have sex at least twice a week I am crazy enough to implode our entire life. If you don't think so, go ahead and test me."
> 
> On my behalf I really studied up on how to please my wife sexually speaking. She takes a LOOOOONG time to warm up, so I warm her up. She takes a while to cum, so I take my time. However, there is that sweet spot when I know I'm doing it ALL right and she becomes one with me. That moment lasts me a long time and I reflect on that during the difficult times.


Amen Brother.... THANK YOU... Boundaries... right there.


----------



## NobodySpecial

UMP said:


> IMO, this is all on her. She does not even know how much money you have or what it costs you to pay the bills and then complains when you have to stay home and work !!!! WTF? Money does not grow on trees.
> 
> She needs a wake up call. She sounds like an entitled princess.
> My wife got a little like this and I sat her down and said, more or less "hey, I know you like your lifestyle, nice car, nice house, no work, do whatever you want to do, but I want great sex. If you are not at least willing to work at this and have sex at least twice a week I am crazy enough to implode our entire life. If you don't think so, go ahead and test me."
> 
> On my behalf I really studied up on how to please my wife sexually speaking. She takes a LOOOOONG time to warm up, so I warm her up. She takes a while to cum, so I take my time. However, there is that sweet spot when I know I'm doing it ALL right and she becomes one with me. That moment lasts me a long time and I reflect on that during the difficult times.


NUTs


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> Thanks.
> 
> We had some issues when the kids were teenagers.
> 
> She grew up in a home where her father never trusted her. She was not allowed to do much. I grew up in a home where I was pretty much allowed to do what I wanted.
> 
> The kids and her were great when they were young. When they became teenagers they didn't like her bossing them around. She didn't think I backed her up enough. I had a hard time being tough on things that I didn't agree with.
> 
> A bunch of the fighting happened while I was at work. The kids never talk back to me. When I give them hell, they know it.
> 
> She resents me for this.
> 
> I know I should have had her back more. I wish I could do it over. She feels like she always had to be the bad guy.


We are married to similar women and have similar lifestyles - I'm just a few years behind you. Right down to looking at places in the mountains. 

Wife is also hot and disciplined - elite level athlete disciplined. 

All the money stuff is just table stakes to her. Sure, it's great, and she appreciates it... But it's expected. It doesn't make her panties drop. 

Have her back. But have yours, too. Work on attractors and recontextualize your relationship. Meet your commitments. Woo her. 

I had to make it obvious that I simultaneously expect a marriage to include sex, but that I don't expect sex by just showing up. 

You sound nice, but boring and introverted. Be unexpected. Take charge. Knock her socks off.

You might find you have as much fun doing it as she does.

Oh, and what UMP says. Getting my wife to be more financially accountable and involved made a world of difference. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

OpenWindows said:


> She's hurt because you turned her down. She wanted to spend time with you. I've seen a few examples here of you turning down time with her to do something else. She wants to be together and talk to you, and whenever you decline, more distance is created between you. I wonder if she feels like these work obligations and things you need to do are more important to you then she is.
> 
> Is quality time her love language?


Yes, I would say quality time is her love language. At least when we are spending quality time together, it is when we get along the best and she seems happiest.

I don't know what other examples you are mentioning, but we do spend a fair amount of time together. Probably 8 weeks of vacation a year. All summer we golfed most Friday afternoons together and most Sundays.

She expected me to drive 7 hours to the mountains Friday after work, ski Saturday and Sunday and then drive back Sunday Night, so I could be at work on Monday. Actually I think she expected me to miss work Monday. I try hard to be here for my clients during their busy time (January and February). I do take a fair amount of time off during the rest of the year.

Her love language is quality time. I am supposed to arrange holidays, date nights, etc. My love language is words of affirmation and physical touch. Words of affirmation seldom happen. If I want physical touch I have to be the one to initiate with a 90% chance of being rejected.

Why am I the only one that is doing things for the relationship?


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sometimes you can't always get away. Our company is super busy in January too.
> 
> Are there times where you do cut away to be with her?


Yes, as per other post.

And things will be getting easier and easier. Our oldest daughter started working for me a year ago. She is learning the business, but will be able to do more and more and I will be able to do less and less. And least that is the plan for now.


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> I know this is of minimal help. SHAVE IT. Bald is HOT.


I tried that once. She wasn't a fan. I might have no choice in a few more years.


----------



## SadSamIAm

UMP said:


> IMO, this is all on her. She does not even know how much money you have or what it costs you to pay the bills and then complains when you have to stay home and work !!!! WTF? Money does not grow on trees.
> 
> She needs a wake up call. She sounds like an entitled princess.
> My wife got a little like this and I sat her down and said, more or less "hey, I know you like your lifestyle, nice car, nice house, no work, do whatever you want to do, but I want great sex. If you are not at least willing to work at this and have sex at least twice a week I am crazy enough to implode our entire life. If you don't think so, go ahead and test me."
> 
> On my behalf I really studied up on how to please my wife sexually speaking. She takes a LOOOOONG time to warm up, so I warm her up. She takes a while to cum, so I take my time. However, there is that sweet spot when I know I'm doing it ALL right and she becomes one with me. That moment lasts me a long time and I reflect on that during the difficult times.


I have tried this. I have moved out a couple of times. Only for a few days though each time. That was a mistake. I should have either never left, or stayed away longer.

I have talked to my mother in law about our relationship. My wife is very much like her father. My mother in law has said things to me like, "I don't know how you put up with the way she treats you." I mentioned to my mother in law that maybe I just need to leave. My mother in law said, "She would never give in." She knows how stubborn she is. 

I don't want to lose my marriage over this. We should be having a great life. At times, it really is great. Just the majority of the time it is pretty bad.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> Yes, I would say quality time is her love language. At least when we are spending quality time together, it is when we get along the best and she seems happiest.
> 
> I don't know what other examples you are mentioning, but we do spend a fair amount of time together. Probably 8 weeks of vacation a year. All summer we golfed most Friday afternoons together and most Sundays.
> 
> She expected me to drive 7 hours to the mountains Friday after work, ski Saturday and Sunday and then drive back Sunday Night, so I could be at work on Monday. Actually I think she expected me to miss work Monday. I try hard to be here for my clients during their busy time (January and February). I do take a fair amount of time off during the rest of the year.
> 
> Her love language is quality time. I am supposed to arrange holidays, date nights, etc. My love language is words of affirmation and physical touch. Words of affirmation seldom happen. If I want physical touch I have to be the one to initiate with a 90% chance of being rejected.
> 
> Why am I the only one that is doing things for the relationship?


You married an expensive princess that wants to spend her precious time with you. 

That's the cost of a ticket on this ride. 

Are you going to buy a ticket happily, buy a ticket grudgingly, or get off the ride?

What you said - I've done that kind of trip many times. Wife and kids go with friends skiing, I can only get away for a night or two, so I drive to be with them when I can. 

It really matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

You didn't stay away long enough.....


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> We are married to similar women and have similar lifestyles - I'm just a few years behind you. Right down to looking at places in the mountains.


Thanks. We only have a quarter share of a condo which works great because we can't be there all the time anyhow. One week a month is too much. 

It was a great investment (not money wise) as we have great family memories there. It made us take holidays. Our kids were involved in many sports, but we always had our week or two of skiing.



> Wife is also hot and disciplined - elite level athlete disciplined.
> 
> All the money stuff is just table stakes to her. Sure, it's great, and she appreciates it... But it's expected. It doesn't make her panties drop.
> 
> Have her back. But have yours, too. Work on attractors and recontextualize your relationship. Meet your commitments. Woo her.
> 
> I had to make it obvious that I simultaneously expect a marriage to include sex, but that I don't expect sex by just showing up.
> 
> You sound nice, but boring and introverted. Be unexpected. Take charge. Knock her socks off.
> 
> You might find you have as much fun doing it as she does.


I am actually not boring or introverted. We have some couple friends over at I am usually the life of the party. In some ways, I think my wife resents that I am so well liked.

I used to do more unexpected things. I did take charge and knock her socks off. But getting kicked in the nuts a few times, slows a guy down.



> Oh, and what UMP says. Getting my wife to be more financially accountable and involved made a world of difference.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I show her numbers from the company. Show her how the investments are doing. She just isn't interested. I am lucky because she really doesn't spend that much. She shops at Winners and Homesense. She has some nice things, but she is actually very good with spending. She spends hours shopping though!


----------



## UMP

SadSamIAm said:


> I have tried this. I have moved out a couple of times. Only for a few days though each time. That was a mistake. I should have either never left, or stayed away longer.
> 
> I have talked to my mother in law about our relationship. My wife is very much like her father. My mother in law has said things to me like, "I don't know how you put up with the way she treats you." I mentioned to my mother in law that maybe I just need to leave. My mother in law said, "She would never give in." She knows how stubborn she is.
> 
> I don't want to lose my marriage over this. We should be having a great life. At times, it really is great. Just the majority of the time it is pretty bad.


My wife is also VERY stubborn. If we fight, I have to have the will of 10 men to out last her. The key, for me, was enduring her shiit tests with laughter. Your wife is shiit testing you to death!
The absolute worst thing you can do is take what she says seriously. Here is what I do:

My wife starts to get into me for whatever reason. In the past I would get pissed and mope. Now, I play along and start smiling. I end it with a smile and say "do you want me to spank you?" I then proceed to grab her, pick her up and bear hug her, push her into the bed and wrestle a bit till she starts laughing herself.

It works. You must overcome her stubbornness with super human mental strength. Unless you can become stronger than her, she will never respect you. When you do, she will give in to you and you will start to see that light at the end of the tunnel.

NEVER become angry for her shiit tests. Anger is an immediate loss for you.

Your wife is a wild untamed horse. Become the horse whisperer.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I have tried this. I have moved out a couple of times. Only for a few days though each time. That was a mistake. I should have either never left, or stayed away longer.
> 
> I have talked to my mother in law about our relationship. My wife is very much like her father. My mother in law has said things to me like, "I don't know how you put up with the way she treats you." I mentioned to my mother in law that maybe I just need to leave. My mother in law said, "She would never give in." She knows how stubborn she is.
> 
> I don't want to lose my marriage over this. We should be having a great life. At times, it really is great. Just the majority of the time it is pretty bad.


Ugh. 

You have handed your power over so many times its second nature. 

The only way to be with a woman like this is to always act from a place of strength. Always and forever. My wife can sniff out weakness like its moldy old cheese.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> She expected me to drive 7 hours to the mountains Friday after work, ski Saturday and Sunday and then drive back Sunday Night, so I could be at work on Monday. Actually I think she expected me to miss work Monday. I try hard to be here for my clients during their busy time (January and February). I do take a fair amount of time off during the rest of the year.


Sam, my husband works in a city 6 hours from where the boys and I live. He does that 12 hour commute every weekend, 4-10pm in the car Friday night, and 4-10pm again Sunday night. That is just the cost of having a job he really likes and being able to see his family every weekend, which is also really important to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> You married an expensive princess that wants to spend her precious time with you.
> 
> That's the cost of a ticket on this ride.
> 
> Are you going to buy a ticket happily, buy a ticket grudgingly, or get off the ride?
> 
> What you said - I've done that kind of trip many times. Wife and kids go with friends skiing, I can only get away for a night or two, so I drive to be with them when I can.
> 
> It really matters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It was a combination of things:

1) work is very busy
2) lots of driving for a couple of nights
2) she has been treating me like crap lately

One minute I am being told to have NUTS, the next minute I am supposed to do this for her when she is treating me poorly.

I have done things like this for her in the past. For six months, early in our relationship, I moved away for a temporary job. Every weekend I drove 5 hours every Friday Night to see her and every Sunday night back to work. Only missed one weekend.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> You didn't stay away long enough.....


I truly believe that I would need to leave forever. I don't see her ever giving in.

If we were to divorce, she would still have plenty of money. She really doesn't need me for anything.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I truly believe that I would need to leave forever. I don't see her ever giving in.
> 
> If we were to divorce, she would still have plenty of money. She really doesn't need me for anything.


I hate it when relationships get to that level and typically I see it when the woman has her head too far up her a$$ to appreciate a good man.


----------



## Marduk

Ok Sam. 

I'm going to cut to it. 

You don't sound like the life of the party. You sound like you mope. 

You sound like 90% effort is good enough to you. 

You sound like you describe yourself as old looking and out of shape and style. 

You sound like you're too lazy to spend time with your family this weekend. 

You sound like you left her in a huff and then came crawling back. 

You sound like you showed her dollar signs in an account and expected her to fall on her knees and give you a BJ because she'd get so turned on. 

You sound like you've spent decades playing into the spoiled entitled princess schtick and you don't like it any more. 

You sound like you expect things to be different because it's unfair.

I'm saying this to you because I think you need to hear it. I needed to hear it. 

Now, the question is, do you want to do the difficult work of giving it a shot or the difficult work of leaving her for good?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> It was a combination of things:
> 
> 1) work is very busy
> 2) lots of driving for a couple of nights
> 2) she has been treating me like crap lately
> 
> One minute I am being told to have NUTS, the next minute I am supposed to do this for her when she is treating me poorly.
> 
> I have done things like this for her in the past. For six months, early in our relationship, I moved away for a temporary job. Every weekend I drove 5 hours every Friday Night to see her and every Sunday night back to work. Only missed one weekend.


You're totally missing the point. 

You're supposed to do it for you and your kids. 

Reacting like this to 2 is the way a child would react. 

"Wife, I'm coming even though you've been acting like a spoiled brat. That's going to change on this trip. Understand?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

SadSamIAm said:


> Another issue we have is sex rank. When we met I was the captain of the Volleyball team in college. I was 6 feet tall, 180 lbs and very fit. Was probably an 7.5 or 8.
> 
> She was probably an 8. She wasn't into fitness but she was slim. She puts a lot of effort into her hair and makeup.
> 
> Once college was over I started working in an office and not playing organized sports. When we got married 5 years later I weighed 200 pounds.
> 
> For the first 20 years of our marriage my wife wasn't into fitness. We ate what I call typical foods. Fairly healthy, but the odd pizza. Meat, potatoes, rice, etc. I played squash 3 times a week, but like having beer and wings afterwards as well as the exercise.
> 
> The last 10 years my wife has gotten into fitness. She works out 4 mornings a week for a couple of hours. She eats only healthy food. She is 49 and looks like 39.
> 
> I am 52. Have grey hair. Am balding. Now weigh 210 pounds. Probably look closer to 60 than 50.
> 
> She went from an 8 to a 9. I went from an 8 to a 6!
> 
> She wants to eat quino and work out and live forever. I want to eat what I like, exercise a bit and enjoy life. I know she would like it if I ate better and worked out more. This is something I need to do. Just business is busy and I don't have the energy. I have arthritis in my hip which also makes it tough.
> 
> Just trying to give a balanced view. I know I should be better.



This is something you should address, because it's something that could have a huge impact and is within your control. 

It's good for your health, and it's possible that your wife sees you choosing the crap food you like over looking good for her. We see this from men too..... they are working hard at the gym while their wife lays around eating crap and they resent it.

My hb is 60 and I'm 41, and our sex life is good because he puts a lot of effort into his fitness. He mentioned to me last night that he'd seen key lime pie on sale but had passed because he's trying to watch things. If he decided that pie was more important than maintaining his fitness our sex life would tank, especially because I'm in very good shape. There's nothing sexually appealing about one who lets themselves go.

Is it possible that it really is as simple as your wife resents that she puts effort into fitness but you don't? That she feels you choose crappy food over looking good for her? I'm sure you make a good living but even though many men think money creates desire it doesn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

UMP said:


> My wife is also VERY stubborn. If we fight, I have to have the will of 10 men to out last her. The key, for me, was enduring her shiit tests with laughter. Your wife is shiit testing you to death!
> The absolute worst thing you can do is take what she says seriously. Here is what I do:
> 
> My wife starts to get into me for whatever reason. In the past I would get pissed and mope. Now, I play along and start smiling. I end it with a smile and say "do you want me to spank you?" I then proceed to grab her, pick her up and bear hug her, push her into the bed and wrestle a bit till she starts laughing herself.
> 
> It works. You must overcome her stubbornness with super human mental strength. Unless you can become stronger than her, she will never respect you. When you do, she will give in to you and you will start to see that light at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> NEVER become angry for her shiit tests. Anger is an immediate loss for you.
> 
> Your wife is a wild untamed horse. Become the horse whisperer.


I know and I have tried. I have tried to do what you said and physically tried to hug her and hold her. She fights back. I have to be very firm and it starts to feel like abuse. She has dug her nails in pretty deep trying to get me away from her.

I have tried making light of her. She hates being made fun of. At the moment she is very serious about whatever mundane thing it is. Me laughing and making light of her is disrespecting her.

There have been times when I have hugged her and she pushes me away. I don't give in and just hold her and she is fuming. Telling me to leave her along. Then eventually she warms up. Melts into my arms and is later apologizing for being so head strong. Other times I try the same thing and she is physically hitting me to get me away from her.

There are times when she pushes me away and I just laugh, pinch her butt and say "your loss". 

I know what you are saying, but it is easier said than done.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I'm all for calling out her spoiled brattiness.... Hell, I'll do it for ya... LOL

If ya'll can't tell there is NOTHING that grates on me worse than ingratitude.


----------



## farsidejunky

Sam:

"Wife, I have felt neglected in our relationship for some time now. I feel like even when I give selflessly, I am still treated like a convenience to the other person. I can't remain in a relationship in which I do not feel like I am a priority. I am ready to be all in or all out. What is it going to be?"

As for the all in or all out sentence, you had better mean it. If she gives you excuses or blowback, let her vent. Then:

"I understand I have not been the perfect husband. I am willing to work on that with you, but not if it will not be reciprocated."

If she gives you blowback again, I would disengage and then work on detachment. 

Also, the next time she pulls anything like she did over this ski trip, simply say:

"I have no interest in spending time with someone who does not want to spend time with me. If you want me to be there with you, communicate that to me through actions and words."

But here is the rub, Sam. You simply are not ready to draw that line in the sand from my view. You don't sound strong enough, or ready enough, or something enough.

What will it take for you to have enough and draw your line in the sand?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Sam, my husband works in a city 6 hours from where the boys and I live. He does that 12 hour commute every weekend, 4-10pm in the car Friday night, and 4-10pm again Sunday night. That is just the cost of having a job he really likes and being able to see his family every weekend, which is also really important to him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't imagine a life like that. Only being with my wife two nights a week. Only seeing my family on weekends. 

The upside would be that I think my wife would be happier to see me.

Like I said, I did this for work for 6 months as well. This was different. I gave the reasons. And we had just spent a week together in the mountains a month ago for Christmas.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> "Wife, I'm coming even though you've been acting like a spoiled brat. That's going to change on this trip. Understand?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think this might backfire. Not every woman would see this as "strength." Some would just see it as selfish and aggressive.

Just sayin.'


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I know and I have tried. I have tried to do what you said and physically tried to hug her and hold her. She fights back. I have to be very firm and it starts to feel like abuse. She has dug her nails in pretty deep trying to get me away from her.
> 
> I have tried making light of her. She hates being made fun of. At the moment she is very serious about whatever mundane thing it is. Me laughing and making light of her is disrespecting her.
> 
> There have been times when I have hugged her and she pushes me away. I don't give in and just hold her and she is fuming. Telling me to leave her along. Then eventually she warms up. Melts into my arms and is later apologizing for being so head strong. Other times I try the same thing and she is physically hitting me to get me away from her.
> 
> There are times when she pushes me away and I just laugh, pinch her butt and say "your loss".
> 
> I know what you are saying, but it is easier said than done.


She doesn't believe you are strong enough for her. So she tests you, hoping you'll pass. 

I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's good or it's easy. 

I'm saying it is what it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Sam:
> 
> "Wife, I have felt neglected in our relationship for some time now. I feel like even when I give selflessly, I am still treated like a convenience to the other person. I can't remain in a relationship in which I do not feel like I am a priority. I am ready to be all in or all out. What is it going to be?"
> 
> As for the all in or all out sentence, you had better mean it. If she gives you excuses or blowback, let her vent. Then:
> 
> "I understand I have not been the perfect husband. I am willing to work on that with you, but not if it will not be reciprocated."
> 
> If she gives you blowback again, I would disengage and then work on detachment.
> 
> Also, the next time she pulls anything like she did over this ski trip, simply say:
> 
> "I have no interest in spending time with someone who does not want to spend time with me. If you want me to be there with you, communicate that to me through actions and words."
> 
> But here is the rub, Sam. You simply are not ready to draw that line in the sand from my view. You don't sound strong enough, or ready enough, or something enough.
> 
> What will it take for you to have enough and draw your line in the sand?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think he's ready, but just doesn't have a structure from which to operate from that is effective, but YOU just pointed him in the right direction. Knowing what he will accept and won't accept, and consistent boundaries around it. Think ahead of time how you need to do it. Be prepared, study if you have to. I see it as the only way.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I think this might backfire. Not every woman would see this as "strength." Some would just see it as selfish and aggressive.
> 
> Just sayin.'


If I were him, I'd rather err on that side than the other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I can't imagine a life like that. Only being with my wife two nights a week. Only seeing my family on weekends.
> 
> The upside would be that I think my wife would be happier to see me.
> 
> Like I said, I did this for work for 6 months as well. This was different. I gave the reasons. And we had just spent a week together in the mountains a month ago for Christmas.


When he can, he works from home. That is a real pleasure, having him around all the time.

But we do what we have to do. We have a family to provide for. And I want him to have a job he enjoys.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> When he can, he works from home. That is a real pleasure, having him around all the time.
> 
> But we do what we have to do. We have a family to provide for. And I want him to have a job he enjoys.


Refresh my memory why y'all don't move the family to him?


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> If I were him, I'd rather err on that side than the other.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I were his wife, I would prefer he err on the other side.

Jmo, Sam. You know her best.


----------



## Marduk

Sam, you have money. 

Have you ever owned an expensive tempermental sports car that took tons of time and effort to keep going, but that drove like a bat out of hell and hugged the curves like they're on rails?

Did you get mad at it because it wasn't a Hyundai?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think this might backfire. Not every woman would see this as "strength." Some would just see it as selfish and aggressive.
> 
> Just sayin.'


I agree.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> Sam, you have money.
> 
> Have you ever owned an expensive tempermental sports car that took tons of time and effort to keep going, but that drove like a bat out of hell and hugged the curves like they're on rails?
> 
> Did you get mad at it because it wasn't a Hyundai?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL!!! great visual

Same could be said for a Thoroughbred vs a Belgian

One is HOT blooded and the other is reliable....

You gotta know which horse ya got in order to know how to wisper to it and you definitely need to learn how to be the wisperer to THAT horse.... and yet...

when BRAT shows up... you gotta smack that ***

Every once in a while my big draft will test me and I WIN every time. Its too dangerous if I don't.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Refresh my memory why y'all don't move the family to him?


Lots of reasons. Real estate has not recovered here, small city where he is, far from any major one, he travels a lot anyway, more job opportunities here if he ever wants to change, etc.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> I agree.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fozzy

SadSamIAm said:


> I tried that once. She wasn't a fan. I might have no choice in a few more years.


When I first started shaving my head, my wife HATED it. And let me know.

I kept shaving it because I like it. Now she likes it too.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I agree.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Be still my beating heart . . .


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> LOL!!! great visual
> 
> Same could be said for a Thoroughbred vs a Belgian
> 
> One is HOT blooded and the other is reliable....
> 
> You gotta know which horse ya got in order to know how to wisper to it and you definitely need to learn how to be the wisperer to THAT horse.... and yet...
> 
> when BRAT shows up... you gotta smack that ***
> 
> Every once in a while my big draft will test me and I WIN every time. Its too dangerous if I don't.


Which is exactly why I'd pay the price to have the sports car, but treat it just a little selfishly and aggressively. 

Because sports cars are inherintly selfish and aggressive things to have, and they respond to it. 

As long as you baby them and spend money on them, too. 

But they need to be driven.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> When I first started shaving my head, my wife HATED it. And let me know.
> 
> I kept shaving it because I like it. Now she likes it too.


Bald is attractive. But a man who loves you and is committed to you is even more attractive. 

Or maybe that is just how my attraction works . . .


----------



## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> Why?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because she sounds stubborn like my wife. F2 would cut off her nose to spite her face. 

She needs to see his pain one time. Just once. And not anger masking the pain. That would be in the conversation I recommended. 

When I showed my wife my anger and frustration, she volleyed it right back to me. When I showed her my hurt, followed by true resolve, she listened.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Fozzy said:


> When I first started shaving my head, my wife HATED it. And let me know.
> 
> I kept shaving it because I like it. Now she likes it too.


This is a great point. It isn't her head, Sam.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Adelais

sadsamiam said:


> She is never the first to apologize.
> 
> You should never apologize when you have done nothing wrong. If you are apologizing to just get through the problem, then you might look into whether you are conflict avoidant or codependent, and fix that in yourself. If she is overly proud or stubborn, refusing to acknowledge or apologize for things she has done, do you really want to live with someone like that for the rest of your life?
> 
> After we are cold to each other for three weeks i eventually give in.
> 
> That is a long time to suffer and be angry or cold. Imo it is too long.
> 
> She thinks she might be going through menopause.
> 
> Yes, a woman's hormones do things to her that make her feel physically and even emotionally unbalanced at times. However she needs to still apologize for things she has done. Perhaps she needs to find herself apologizing a lot if she is "off" a lot due to menopause.
> 
> Referring to her comment to you when you said you missed her while she is at the mountain house: Has your wife always been upset that you work so much or have been absent from family activities? Does she really care about the 2 BMWs, and all the things you listed in your post? Would she have been happier with less expensive cars, less nice things, but having you around more? Could that be the root of some of her anger against you?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Bald is attractive. But a man who loves you and is committed to you is even more attractive.
> 
> Or maybe that is just how my attraction works . . .


Unless he is needy and subservient, which Sam demonstrates through his actions, no matter what his words say.

Sam: talk less, do more.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Because she sounds stubborn like my wife. F2 would cut off her nose to spite her face.
> 
> She needs to see his pain one time. Just once. And not anger masking the pain. That would be in the conversation I recommended.
> 
> When I showed my wife my anger and frustration, she volleyed it right back to me. When I showed her my hurt, followed by true resolve, she listened.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Vulnerability is moving, Sam. Don't underestimate the love she still holds in her heart for you. Tap into it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

You have some of this correct. Some you are off base.




marduk said:


> Ok Sam.
> 
> I'm going to cut to it.
> 
> You don't sound like the life of the party. You sound like you mope.


I am the life of the party when we are out socializing and when the family is together. My kids think I am hilarious. So do their partners.

I am a mope when it comes to dealing with my wife. I know it is counter productive. I need to be stronger. 



> You sound like 90% effort is good enough to you.


I feel like I gave 100% for years. I feel like my wife gives 110% to the family, but 25% to us as a couple. It is tough to keep giving when you feel like you are the only one doing it.

I agree though. I need to do better.



> You sound like you describe yourself as old looking and out of shape and style.


I am old looking. I am probably in better shape than the average guy my age, but I could do a bunch better. I usually wear golf shirts and shorts to work in the summer. Jeans and sweat shirts in the winter. The odd suit for meetings and events. My wife buys 95% of my clothes. 



> You sound like you're too lazy to spend time with your family this weekend.


I gave the reasons why. It wasn't because I was lazy. My wife went with our two daughters and their partners. I stayed at home with my son as he didn't want to make the drive either since he couldn't miss school on Monday. 



> You sound like you left her in a huff and then came crawling back.


This last time I was really intent on leaving for good. My daughter got her car stuck by our house. She called me to help. I went to help her and my wife called me into the bedroom. She was crying and told me she wasn't ready for the marriage to end. I can't handle her crying. I had to hold her. I know I should have turned and walked out. I was weak.



> You sound like you showed her dollar signs in an account and expected her to fall on her knees and give you a BJ because she'd get so turned on.


Wrong. I know that money isn't that important to her. I was trying to make conversation with her. Get her more interested in my life. I never expected her to get turned on by it. 



> You sound like you've spent decades playing into the spoiled entitled princess schtick and you don't like it any more.


Wrong. I have never thought of her as a spoiled princess. She really isn't like that. When I book a vacation she always wants to stay in the cheapest room. I like the suites. 



> You sound like you expect things to be different because it's unfair.
> 
> I'm saying this to you because I think you need to hear it. I needed to hear it.
> 
> Now, the question is, do you want to do the difficult work of giving it a shot or the difficult work of leaving her for good?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel like I am the only one putting in effort into us. I have to continue to do so, because I really don't want to start over. I know I still love her. There are times when I believe she still loves me.

Time to book another vacation. Time to stop moping around. Time to be a better leader.

Thanks for the message. You were mostly correct.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> Because she sounds stubborn like my wife. F2 would cut off her nose to spite her face.
> 
> She needs to see his pain one time. Just once. And not anger masking the pain. That would be in the conversation I recommended.
> 
> When I showed my wife my anger and frustration, she volleyed it right back to me. When I showed her my hurt, followed by true resolve, she listened.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


My wife does exactly the same thing. You know that. 

But over the ski trip, that's exactly what I would do. And she's stew and be mad and by the end of the first night as long as I didn't play into that, she'd be happy and nice.

I agree she needs to see his pain. But she needs to see it in a relevant and controlled context about something emotionally more neutral to her. Not a family ski trip that he broke his commitment on, when he didn't really have to. 

At a time of his choosing, when he is emotionally stable enough not to lose control, he gives her the "our marriage sucks and we're both ****ty spouses" speech. 

That wasn't the time. That was the time to be clear that he delivers on his commitments even if she's *****y, and he expects the *****y to end. Instead, he handed her justification to continue to be *****y.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Unless he is needy and subservient, which Sam demonstrates through his actions, no matter what his words say.
> 
> Sam: talk less, do more.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Honestly... I think he does enough. "doing more" seems counter productive to me.. She's not even appreciating what he DOES do. Waste of time.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Unless he is needy and subservient, which Sam demonstrates through his actions, no matter what his words say.
> 
> Sam: talk less, do more.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Being mopey and whiny, as well as moving out a few times, does not send the message: "I am strong enough to meet your anger with my understanding and compassion," Sam.


----------



## SadSamIAm

lifeistooshort said:


> This is something you should address, because it's something that could have a huge impact and is within your control.
> 
> It's good for your health, and it's possible that your wife sees you choosing the crap food you like over looking good for her. We see this from men too..... they are working hard at the gym while their wife lays around eating crap and they resent it.
> 
> My hb is 60 and I'm 41, and our sex life is good because he puts a lot of effort into his fitness. He mentioned to me last night that he'd seen key lime pie on sale but had passed because he's trying to watch things. If he decided that pie was more important than maintaining his fitness our sex life would tank, especially because I'm in very good shape. There's nothing sexually appealing about one who lets themselves go.
> 
> Is it possible that it really is as simple as your wife resents that she puts effort into fitness but you don't? That she feels you choose crappy food over looking good for her? I'm sure you make a good living but even though many men think money creates desire it doesn't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lots of truth in this. I know this is a big deal to her. Another thing I need to change.

I have been thinking about making a plan to lose 20 pounds before our trip to Tahiti in September. I need to start now.


----------



## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> Honestly... I think he does enough. "doing more" seems counter productive to me.. She's not even appreciating what he DOES do. Waste of time.


It is vague, and what you are taking from it was not my intent, but rather to show her they will either be all in or all out after telling her only once.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> It is vague, and what you are taking from it was not my intent, but rather to show her they will either be all in or all out after telling her only once.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Understood, but not going to work.... "doing " is going to fall on deaf ears in this one... just my gut on it.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Lots of truth in this. I know this is a big deal to her. Another thing I need to change.
> 
> I have been thinking about making a plan to lose 20 pounds before our trip to Tahiti in September. I need to start now.


How did you choose Tahiti?

I ask because nearly every time I bring up Hawaii, Dug mentions Tahiti. French possession.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> Sam, you have money.
> 
> Have you ever owned an expensive tempermental sports car that took tons of time and effort to keep going, but that drove like a bat out of hell and hugged the curves like they're on rails?
> 
> Did you get mad at it because it wasn't a Hyundai?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, but I do drive a little two door BMW 435. It drives like a bat out of hell and hugs curves like crazy. Love driving it up with curvy roads to the ski hill in the summer. It isn't tempermental and takes no time or effort. 

Wish wives came in the same model!


----------



## Marduk

Do this, Sam. 

Today, hit the gym. Focus on building muscle. Switch to a diet high in protein and quality fats, low in carbs. 

Today, book a haircut at a quality place. 

Today, go to a fashionable place and get some clothes appropriate and well fitting for you. Your wife no longer buys your clothes, she's not your mother. You do. But pay attention to what she likes. I've been liking frank and oak recently. 

Tomorrow, make sure you look good and smell nice. Make sure you have a **** eating grin on your face whenever she's around. Tell her you have plans for a date night, but don't tell her what you have planned. That's when you are going to make your intentions for your marriage plain. 

Settle yourself that you need to find a place of strength whenever you deal with her. You may never find safety with her, Sam. I never will with my wife. But that's the wife I chose. 

So find safety in yourself. 

You don't buy a sports car because they're safe, reliable, cheap, or low maintenance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom, how would you ideally like Sam to handle this? What would speak to you?


----------



## farsidejunky

Sam:

The perfect analogy:

"Wife, there is a boat that is about to set sail. Being on the dock is not hell, but it is stagnant. On that boat is not the promise of happiness, but rather the pursuit of it. I am stepping off the dock and into the boat. You can either step off with me, or not. But you can't keep one foot on each, because come hell or high water, I am setting sail. I love you dearly, and I hope and pray you will step off the dock with me, but I can't make that choice for you. Let me know what your choice will be."

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## SadSamIAm

farsidejunky said:


> Because she sounds stubborn like my wife. F2 would cut off her nose to spite her face.
> 
> She needs to see his pain one time. Just once. And not anger masking the pain. That would be in the conversation I recommended.
> 
> When I showed my wife my anger and frustration, she volleyed it right back to me. When I showed her my hurt, followed by true resolve, she listened.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Your wife sounds like mine. But if I show her my hurt too often, she takes it as me being weak.


----------



## jld

Marduk, what if she does not trust **** -eating grins?


----------



## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> Your wife sounds like mine. But if I show her my hurt too often, she takes it as me being weak.


Of course she does. Because you TELL her it hurts, and then do nothing about it when she hurts you exactly the same way again.

Talk less. Do more.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Being mopey and whiny, as well as moving out a few times, does not send the message: "I am strong enough to meet your anger with my understanding and compassion," Sam.


Exactly.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sam, if her desire is for you to "be" with her... that's quality time. 

When you try to accommodate her and yet she is a porcupine once you get there... what is the point. 

Accomplishes nothing. Other than you having to stuff your feelings to get along while you are there.

No thank you.

Its this push pull.... go whoa thing that women are notorious for. 

"Come be with me.... No don't be with me" ugh... Help me with the dishes.... NO you are doing it wrong... drives me nuts. Does nothing but causes confusion and these poor guys around here run around chasing their tails wondering what in the hell us women want. No wonder!!

Schedule some time to be with her.... but the SECOND she starts being cruel... leave, explaining to her that you will no longer tolerate foul treatment of you when you have made the effort to accommodate her. You are not her punching bag. You are her husband and it is time she treated you like you are. If she chooses to be bratty... trip over.

Sorry... if my vent upsets you. Just frustrating to see the hoops these guys are trying to jump through to please women. Its ridiculous.


----------



## jld

I don't think you should leave. I think you should draw closer by listening to her.

It sounds like you love each other very much. You both just want to feel understood.


----------



## Wolf1974

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sam, if her desire is for you to "be" with her... that's quality time.
> 
> When you try to accommodate her and yet she is a porcupine once you get there... what is the point.
> 
> Accomplishes nothing. Other than you having to stuff your feelings to get along while you are there.
> 
> No thank you.
> 
> Its this push pull.... go whoa thing that women are notorious for.
> 
> "Come be with me.... No don't be with me" ugh... Help me with the dishes.... NO you are doing it wrong... drives me nuts. Does nothing but causes confusion and these poor guys around here run around chasing their tails wondering what in the hell us women want. No wonder!!
> 
> Schedule some time to be with her.... but the SECOND she starts being cruel... leave, explaining to her that you will no longer tolerate foul treatment of you when you have made the effort to accommodate her. You are not her punching bag. You are her husband and it is time she treated you like you are. If she chooses to be bratty... trip over.
> 
> Sorry... if my vent upsets you. Just frustrating to see the hoops these guys are trying to jump through to please women. Its ridiculous.


True words. The happy wife happy life cost me so much in life. I hope that other realize , long before I ever did, that giving into your wives moods, wants ,desires, hopes, and dreams above anything you want all the time is a disaster waiting to happen. They have the term nice guy for a reason and I was certainly one. I keep positing hoping that others will do it better than me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> She is never the first to apologize.
> 
> You should never apologize when you have done nothing wrong. If you are apologizing to just get through the problem, then you might look into whether you are conflict avoidant or codependent, and fix that in yourself. If she is overly proud or stubborn, refusing to acknowledge or apologize for things she has done, do you really want to live with someone like that for the rest of your life?
> 
> After we are cold to each other for three weeks i eventually give in.
> 
> That is a long time to suffer and be angry or cold. Imo it is too long.
> 
> She thinks she might be going through menopause.
> 
> Yes, a woman's hormones do things to her that make her feel physically and even emotionally unbalanced at times. However she needs to still apologize for things she has done. Perhaps she needs to find herself apologizing a lot if she is "off" a lot due to menopause.
> 
> Referring to her comment to you when you said you missed her while she is at the mountain house: Has your wife always been upset that you work so much or have been absent from family activities? Does she really care about the 2 BMWs, and all the things you listed in your post? Would she have been happier with less expensive cars, less nice things, but having you around more? Could that be the root of some of her anger against you?


I really don't have to work that much. Not anymore than anyone else. I actually have more flexibility. 

Up until a couple of years ago, our life was our kids. They were involved in many sports. Every night, I would come home from work and then I was off to the rink for hockey or somewhere for volleball, or soccer, or lacrosse, or ringette. Many nights my wife was off in a different direction. 

I was around for all of it. Did most of the extra curricular stuff with the kids. I coached some and was always a manager or treasurer or something for all the teams. 

We have nice stuff. But we were lucky. I found a niche for my business and am doing well, but I really only work 5 days a week from 7 to 5. 

The only time I can't take time off during the week is late January to the end of February as that is a big deadline for my clients and I need to be around in case something goes wrong (software business). I often respond to emails on weekends and at night, but it just for a few minutes every once in a while.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

The ONLY answer here is putting his friggen foot down on how he wants be treated and if she pitches a [email protected] fit, LET HER..... That's on her.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> [/color]





jld said:


> How did you choose Tahiti?
> 
> I ask because nearly every time I bring up Hawaii, Dug mentions Tahiti. French possession.


We have been to Hawaii four times. I love it too. 

Never been to Tahiti. A friend of mine was there and said it is beautiful. I like the look of the over water bungalows. We love to walk on the beach. Looks like a spectacular place.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> The ONLY answer here is putting his friggen foot down on how he wants be treated and if she pitches a [email protected] fit, LET HER..... That's on her.


How would you respond to that?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sam, if her desire is for you to "be" with her... that's quality time.
> 
> When you try to accommodate her and yet she is a porcupine once you get there... what is the point.
> 
> Accomplishes nothing. Other than you having to stuff your feelings to get along while you are there.
> 
> No thank you.
> 
> Its this push pull.... go whoa thing that women are notorious for.
> 
> "Come be with me.... No don't be with me" ugh... Help me with the dishes.... NO you are doing it wrong... drives me nuts. Does nothing but causes confusion and these poor guys around here run around chasing their tails wondering what in the hell us women want. No wonder!!
> 
> Schedule some time to be with her.... but the SECOND she starts being cruel... leave, explaining to her that you will no longer tolerate foul treatment of you when you have made the effort to accommodate her. You are not her punching bag. You are her husband and it is time she treated you like you are. If she chooses to be bratty... trip over.
> 
> Sorry... if my vent upsets you. Just frustrating to see the hoops these guys are trying to jump through to please women. Its ridiculous.


AND THEN..... we change the goal posts on them.... AUGH!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> How would you respond to that?


My H has done just that to me before and I wanted to jump his bones.

And when I finished being a brat... I apologized for being a BRAT.


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> Your wife sounds like mine. But if I show her my hurt too often, she takes it as me being weak.


Show it to her one last time. Don't do it until you are resolute that you are going to get on that boat that farsidejunky talked about with or without your wife.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> Do this, Sam.
> 
> Today, hit the gym. Focus on building muscle. Switch to a diet high in protein and quality fats, low in carbs.
> 
> Today, book a haircut at a quality place.
> 
> Today, go to a fashionable place and get some clothes appropriate and well fitting for you. Your wife no longer buys your clothes, she's not your mother. You do. But pay attention to what she likes. I've been liking frank and oak recently.
> 
> Tomorrow, make sure you look good and smell nice. Make sure you have a **** eating grin on your face whenever she's around. Tell her you have plans for a date night, but don't tell her what you have planned. That's when you are going to make your intentions for your marriage plain.
> 
> Settle yourself that you need to find a place of strength whenever you deal with her. You may never find safety with her, Sam. I never will with my wife. But that's the wife I chose.
> 
> So find safety in yourself.
> 
> You don't buy a sports car because they're safe, reliable, cheap, or low maintenance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good plan. I just had my hair cut very short so that part will have to wait.

My car is new. Only 17000 kms on it. So it is still reliable and low maintenance. I will probably sell it before it becomes otherwise.

I drive pretty safe most of the time. It isn't cheap. But there are definitely more expensive.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> It was a combination of things:
> 
> 1) work is very busy
> 2) lots of driving for a couple of nights
> 2) she has been treating me like crap lately
> 
> One minute I am being told to have NUTS, the next minute I am supposed to do this for her when she is treating me poorly.


Not everyone on a board is going to agree. IMO the women who are telling you to kiss her ass more and harder are wrong. You have to ask yourself, of the advice that you are getting, what is likely to be actually different from what you have done since what you have done has not worked. Clearly you cannot agree with everyone on this board.

To be unfortunately, very honest, the fact that you want to follow all advice without filtering it through your own powerful thought process is telling.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> My H has done just that to me before and I wanted to jump his bones.
> 
> And when I finished being a brat... I apologized for being a BRAT.


I have heard a few other women say they wanted to be treated similarly. It really seems to turn some women on.

I just would not want that at all. I would feel completely rejected and alone. My trust and respect and love would just go lower and lower.

I would want understanding and compassion. I would want to talk about what went wrong and how we could fix it. That kind of gentleness and vulnerability would make me feel very close to him.


----------



## jld

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Show it to her one last time. Don't do it until you are resolute that you are going to get on that boat that farsidejunky talked about with or without your wife.


Would you want to be treated that way, IMFAR?

If your husband had said, "I am going to eat pork. Either accept it or we can split," how would you have reacted?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Would you want to be treated that way, IMFAR?
> 
> If your husband had said, "I am going to eat pork. Either accept it or we can split," how would you have reacted?


Kind of a lacking comparison, but I understand your point.

If Sam's wife believes they have a great marriage, I wouldn't want to continue the marriage with her. However, I am certain based on her apparent resentment that she does not believe it is great.

Sam would be asking her to commit to making a great marriage. If she can't commit, it is time to end it. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Kind of a lacking comparison, but I understand your point.
> 
> If Sam's wife believes they have a great marriage, I wouldn't want to continue the marriage with her. However, I am certain based on her apparent resentment that she does not believe it is great.
> 
> Sam would be asking her to commit to making a great marriage. If she can't commit, it is time to end it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


She clearly loves him. She was crying in the bedroom when he was leaving her.

I cannot imagine how terrifying it must be to have a husband leave you. Depending on how emotionally dependent she is on him, she may have PTSD from it.

Sam, do you think that might be true?


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sam, if her desire is for you to "be" with her... that's quality time.
> 
> When you try to accommodate her and yet she is a porcupine once you get there... what is the point.
> 
> Accomplishes nothing. Other than you having to stuff your feelings to get along while you are there.
> 
> No thank you.
> 
> Its this push pull.... go whoa thing that women are notorious for.
> 
> "Come be with me.... No don't be with me" ugh... Help me with the dishes.... NO you are doing it wrong... drives me nuts. Does nothing but causes confusion and these poor guys around here run around chasing their tails wondering what in the hell us women want. No wonder!!
> 
> Schedule some time to be with her.... but the SECOND she starts being cruel... leave, explaining to her that you will no longer tolerate foul treatment of you when you have made the effort to accommodate her. You are not her punching bag. You are her husband and it is time she treated you like you are. If she chooses to be bratty... trip over.
> 
> Sorry... if my vent upsets you. Just frustrating to see the hoops these guys are trying to jump through to please women. Its ridiculous.


I see both sides. I have tried both approaches. Obviously not strong enough for either one.

Your comment reminded me of something that happened a month ago. At Christmas, just before heading to the mountains, my wife was stressed. She had been out shopping for gifts for the kids. We had decided to give them money, but she was buying 'stocking stuffers' which she always goes overboard. She was planning and cooking meals while away and was running out of time. I asked her what I could do to help. She asked me to make some Muffins and some cookies. She had some last minute running around to do.

She put out the recipes for me. The recipe book for the muffins was turned to a page and there was two recipes showing. One was for Chocolate Chip Banana Muffins the other was for Banana Muffins. She always makes muffins with chocolate chips in them. So I made the Chocolate Chip Banana Muffins. 

She also left a recipe out for Chocolate Swirl Chocolate Cookies. The last step was to drizzle in some chocolate and give it a stir. I thought it would be a good idea to just turn on the mixer instead of stirring. Ended up making the cookies all brown instead of a swirl.

So when she gets home she sees the Muffins and says they look different. Asked me if I used 'butter or margarine'. I said the recipe didn't call for either. Turns out she always used the Banana Muffin recipe and added chocolate chips to it. 

Then she looks at the cookies and says "What happened to these? They are supposed to be white!" So explain how I mixed in the chocolate too much.

Her comment was "I guess I should have just done it myself". 

Her muffins are much better than the ones I made, but it pissed her off that everyone loved the cookies.

The next day we went to the mountains. We skiied together each day and each morning and night she pushed me away when I tried to get close to her. We have been fighting every since.


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> I really don't have to work that much. Not anymore than anyone else. I actually have more flexibility.
> 
> Up until a couple of years ago, our life was our kids. They were involved in many sports. Every night, I would come home from work and then I was off to the rink for hockey or somewhere for volleball, or soccer, or lacrosse, or ringette. Many nights my wife was off in a different direction.
> 
> I was around for all of it. Did most of the extra curricular stuff with the kids. I coached some and was always a manager or treasurer or something for all the teams.
> 
> We have nice stuff. But we were lucky. I found a niche for my business and am doing well, but I really only work 5 days a week from 7 to 5.
> 
> The only time I can't take time off during the week is late January to the end of February as that is a big deadline for my clients and I need to be around in case something goes wrong (software business). I often respond to emails on weekends and at night, but it just for a few minutes every once in a while.


All that you described sounds great. You have not only taken a lot of the burdens off your wife (running the children here and there), but you have blessed your children and their teams with your service over the years! It is also wonderful that you weren't a slave to your work, but had time to have a life while you were accumulating wealth.

Now your wife is demanding while at the same time taking you for granted.

Then it sounds like your wife actually is a spoiled brat and unappreciative.

You also said you have time to go golfing with her every Friday during warm weather, and do other things with her as well.

You also said that the two of you have grown apart in your diets and in your physical condition. Those two things can be improved, and it would only be good for you to improve. She is not a fanatic, is she? If not, you really should join her on the new diet, and on getting in shape. 

Is your hip so bad that you aren't able to do light workouts? I had a bad hip for a while, and while working out hurt, I actually felt a bit better overall when I got some exercise. Can you go to the Dr. and get something done for your hip?

When you have your heart-to-heart with her you have to tell her (again) that there are only two months a year that you aren't readily available to do things with her or the children, and she has to accept it and stop jabbing you over it.

Although you are unhappy, it sounds like you aren't miserable enough to decide that you want to be happier, no matter what it takes. When you are sick and tired of feeling bad, you will do whatever it takes.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I see both sides. I have tried both approaches. Obviously not strong enough for either one.
> 
> Your comment reminded me of something that happened a month ago. At Christmas, just before heading to the mountains, my wife was stressed. She had been out shopping for gifts for the kids. We had decided to give them money, but she was buying 'stocking stuffers' which she always goes overboard. She was planning and cooking meals while away and was running out of time. I asked her what I could do to help. She asked me to make some Muffins and some cookies. She had some last minute running around to do.
> 
> She put out the recipes for me. The recipe book for the muffins was turned to a page and there was two recipes showing. One was for Chocolate Chip Banana Muffins the other was for Banana Muffins. She always makes muffins with chocolate chips in them. So I made the Chocolate Chip Banana Muffins.
> 
> She also left a recipe out for Chocolate Swirl Chocolate Cookies. The last step was to drizzle in some chocolate and give it a stir. I thought it would be a good idea to just turn on the mixer instead of stirring. Ended up making the cookies all brown instead of a swirl.
> 
> So when she gets home she sees the Muffins and says they look different. Asked me if I used 'butter or margarine'. I said the recipe didn't call for either. Turns out she always used the Banana Muffin recipe and added chocolate chips to it.
> 
> Then she looks at the cookies and says "What happened to these? They are supposed to be white!" So explain how I mixed in the chocolate too much.
> 
> Her comment was "I guess I should have just done it myself".
> 
> Her muffins are much better than the ones I made, but it pissed her off that everyone loved the cookies.
> 
> The next day we went to the mountains. We skiied together each day and each morning and night she pushed me away when I tried to get close to her. We have been fighting every since.


She might feel her sense of self worth threatened. Her kids are grown and her husband can bake as well as she does. What value does she have anymore, she might wonder.

You could reassure her of her value, Sam. A little unconditional reassurance could go a long way.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I see both sides. I have tried both approaches. Obviously not strong enough for either one.
> 
> Your comment reminded me of something that happened a month ago. At Christmas, just before heading to the mountains, my wife was stressed. She had been out shopping for gifts for the kids. We had decided to give them money, but she was buying 'stocking stuffers' which she always goes overboard. She was planning and cooking meals while away and was running out of time. I asked her what I could do to help. She asked me to make some Muffins and some cookies. She had some last minute running around to do.
> 
> She put out the recipes for me. The recipe book for the muffins was turned to a page and there was two recipes showing. One was for Chocolate Chip Banana Muffins the other was for Banana Muffins. She always makes muffins with chocolate chips in them. So I made the Chocolate Chip Banana Muffins.
> 
> She also left a recipe out for Chocolate Swirl Chocolate Cookies. The last step was to drizzle in some chocolate and give it a stir. I thought it would be a good idea to just turn on the mixer instead of stirring. Ended up making the cookies all brown instead of a swirl.
> 
> So when she gets home she sees the Muffins and says they look different. Asked me if I used 'butter or margarine'. I said the recipe didn't call for either. Turns out she always used the Banana Muffin recipe and added chocolate chips to it.
> 
> Then she looks at the cookies and says "What happened to these? They are supposed to be white!" So explain how I mixed in the chocolate too much.
> 
> Her comment was "I guess I should have just done it myself".
> 
> Her muffins are much better than the ones I made, but it pissed her off that everyone loved the cookies.
> 
> The next day we went to the mountains. We skiied together each day and each morning and night she pushed me away when I tried to get close to her. We have been fighting every since.


ugh.... I'm sorry Sam... I would have said Thank you SO much for helping me out, really takes the pressure off. And would have given you huge kisses and hugs and would have bit into one to see if a new cool concoction had been discovered. 

I just don't get it and I'm sorry to the guys around here who have to put up with this Bull$hit


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Marduk, what if she does not trust **** -eating grins?


That's mostly for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Adelais

jld said:


> Would you want to be treated that way, IMFAR?
> 
> If your husband had said, "I am going to eat pork. Either accept it or we can split," how would you have reacted?


I would say, "We can split." 

I was actually the one who told him, "I am tired of being reminded of OW every time you refuse to eat pork. I have to cook pork, because of our strict budget, because eating chicken is boring. I can't make you change, but I can get away from you so I won't be hurt anymore. We have irreconcilable differences, and I am going to begin the divorce process tomorrow." He thought about it overnight (he slept in another room) and he decided that he would rather eat pork than push me away over it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> She might feel her sense of self worth threatened. Her kids are grown and her husband can bake as well as she does. What value does she have anymore, she might wonder.
> 
> You could reassure her of her value, Sam. A little unconditional reassurance could go a long way.


:slap:


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> She clearly loves him. She was crying in the bedroom when he was leaving her.
> 
> I cannot imagine how terrifying it must be to have a husband leave you. Depending on how emotionally dependent she is on him, she may have PTSD from it.
> 
> Sam, do you think that might be true?


I agree. But the problem is with the stubbornness. I said on more than one occasion that my wife could keep her pride, or keep me, but not both.

Yes, she hurts. But they are both using emotions as a weapon. The phone conversation about the ski trip? She was seeking his validation. He was seeking hers.

Sam, try this as an experiment. When she gets back, I want you to tell her this:

"Wife, I am going to lunch at x (someplace y'all both love). I want you to come with me."

I have money that says she will like to hear that. I did this one day with my wife, and it was when it was really questionable as to whether or not we were going to make it. She BEAMED. 

My wife is insecure, and she responds with anger because it takes next to nothing for me to hurt her. This was 6 months after I told her that our marriage/intimacy would improve or I would divorce her.

Just try it and post the results.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> That's mostly for him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To try to feel fearless?

I think having an open, humble, listening heart would invite her confidence. 

Jmo, Sam. I would not feel comfortable with anything I thought might not be sincere.


----------



## Adelais

jld said:


> I have heard a few other women say they wanted to be treated similarly. It really seems to turn some women on.
> 
> I just would not want that at all. I would feel completely rejected and alone. My trust and respect and love would just go lower and lower.
> 
> I would want understanding and compassion. I would want to talk about what went wrong and how we could fix it. That kind of gentleness and vulnerability would make me feel very close to him.


I'm like you too jld. Being treated badly would only make me feel insecure and disrespected.

I feel best and respond best if my husband is a combination of strong and compassionate.


----------



## jld

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I would say, "We can split."
> 
> I was actually the one who told him, "I am tired of being reminded of OW every time you refuse to eat pork. I have to cook pork, because of our strict budget, because eating chicken is boring. I can't make you change, but I can get away from you so I won't be hurt anymore. We have irreconcilable differences, and I am going to begin the divorce process tomorrow." He thought about it overnight (he slept in another room) and he decided that he would rather eat pork than push me away over it.


I hear you, but I think his wife is pretty sensitive.


----------



## jld

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I'm like you too jld. Being treated badly would only make me feel insecure and disrespected.
> 
> I feel best and respond best if my husband is a combination of strong and compassionate.


What does "strong" feel like to you, IMFAR?


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> She clearly loves him. She was crying in the bedroom when he was leaving her.
> 
> I cannot imagine how terrifying it must be to have a husband leave you. Depending on how emotionally dependent she is on him, she may have PTSD from it.
> 
> Sam, do you think that might be true?


I don't think so. She treated me better for a week or so.

I think it just gave her license to treat me worse, because she knows that even if I leave, she can easily get me back.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I'm like you too jld. Being treated badly would only make me feel insecure and disrespected.
> 
> I feel best and respond best if my husband is a combination of strong and compassionate.


I like strong and compassionate too...

I like a man who will STAND his ground

But then be able to be as compassionate as he is strong

A man who will not stand up to me when I deserve it.... no


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't think so. She treated me better for a week or so.
> 
> I think it just gave her license to treat me worse, because she knows that even if I leave, she can easily get me back.


Do you think so? She seems to want you to be with her. When the love is gone, I don't think people care if they are together.

I just don't want you to get to that point. That is why I think gentleness and compassion are so important here.


----------



## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't think so. She treated me better for a week or so.
> 
> I think it just gave her license to treat me worse, because she knows that even if I leave, she can easily get me back.


Sam:

You are both seeking validation from each other and not getting it. So you both respond by putting up walls. 

You have to find a way to not need the validation from her, or at least need less of it. Recognize the dynamic. You need her to tell you or show you that you are important to her. She is doing the same.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> The next day we went to the mountains. We skiied together each day and each morning and night she pushed me away when I tried to get close to her. We have been fighting every since.


Over muffins and cookies?

I would have also been initially bothered that the wrong muffins were made and that the cookies looked different. But i would have quickly gotten over it when I saw that everyone like them anyway. Is she not able to see the big picture: everyone got cookies and muffins? Is she controlling?


----------



## farsidejunky

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Over muffins and cookies?
> 
> I would have also been initially bothered that the wrong muffins were made and that the cookies looked different. But i would have quickly gotten over it when I saw that everyone like them anyway. Is she not able to see the big picture: everyone got cookies and muffins? Is she controlling?


I bet she is very controlling. Control is what insecure people crave to alleviate their fears.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> To try to feel fearless?
> 
> I think having an open, humble, listening heart would invite her confidence.
> 
> Jmo, Sam. I would not feel comfortable with anything I thought might not be sincere.


He needs to realize that 99% of what he is responding to is a joke. 

Because it is a joke. And it deserves to be treated like one. 

While he gets at the 1% that is real that is driving the 99% that is fiction. 

I mean look at the cookie story. I would have asked her what planet she is on that she gets to pull **** like that, while simultaneously realizing that the elephant in the room is that she doesn't feel like she can trust him to deliver on his commitments. 

So it comes out like "you need to do what I want my way" so she can feel safe. That's mommy talk, man. 

That's back to the glass on the countertop scenario. You can't play into that. Deliver on your commitments your way 100% of the time. Not her commitments for you. 

Pushing back assertively on bull**** while meeting your commitments and giving her quality time will work wonders. 

As will the other stuff far and ump and I've been saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> I bet she is very controlling. Control is what insecure people crave to alleviate their fears.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Exactly. 

Flip it around though. Did he deliver on his commitment to come skiing?

No.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> All that you described sounds great. You have not only taken a lot of the burdens off your wife (running the children here and there), but you have blessed your children and their teams with your service over the years! It is also wonderful that you weren't a slave to your work, but had time to have a life while you were accumulating wealth.
> 
> Now your wife is demanding while at the same time taking you for granted.
> 
> Then it sounds like your wife actually is a spoiled brat and unappreciative.
> 
> You also said you have time to go golfing with her every Friday during warm weather, and do other things with her as well.
> 
> You also said that the two of you have grown apart in your diets and in your physical condition. Those two things can be improved, and it would only be good for you to improve. She is not a fanatic, is she? If not, you really should join her on the new diet, and on getting in shape.
> 
> Is your hip so bad that you aren't able to do light workouts? I had a bad hip for a while, and while working out hurt, I actually felt a bit better overall when I got some exercise. Can you go to the Dr. and get something done for your hip?
> 
> When you have your heart-to-heart with her you have to tell her (again) that there are only two months a year that you aren't readily available to do things with her or the children, and she has to accept it and stop jabbing you over it.
> 
> Although you are unhappy, it sounds like you aren't miserable enough to decide that you want to be happier, no matter what it takes. When you are sick and tired of feeling bad, you will do whatever it takes.


I agree with everything you say. 

She is a bit fanatical about the diet and exercise. I believe I can do the exercise. The diet will be tougher.

At the end of last golf season I was visibly limping because of the hip. I don't ride a cart as I like the exercise. Our course is quite hilly so it isn't an easy walk. I was playing 3 times a week with the guys and twice a week with her.

I went to the doctor and they did xrays and told me I have arthritis. I had a cortozone shot in the hip and it has done wonders. It has been 4 months and I can just start feeling the pain come back. I was hoping to wait until spring to have another one.

We have a work out room in the house. With a large TV, elliptical, treadmill and some weights. The elliptical doesn't bother my hip. I just need to get my butt in there more often.


----------



## Adelais

jld said:


> To try to feel fearless?
> 
> I think having an open, humble, listening heart would invite her confidence.
> 
> Jmo, Sam*. I would not feel comfortable with anything I thought might not be sincere.*


The *bolded* part. Always be sincere.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Sam:
> 
> You are both seeking validation from each other and not getting it. So you both respond by putting up walls.
> 
> You have to find a way to not need the validation from her, or at least need less of it. Recognize the dynamic. You need her to tell you or show you that you are important to her. She is doing the same.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Sam, you know why I am chasing my husband all the time? Why we did not know what a sexless marriage was before we read about it on TAM?

Because he does not need validation from me. He validates himself. 

But he validates me. He is the fountain that I drink from. That is why I am always seeking him out, wanting to be close to him.

Women like me like that. Maybe not all women like that. But I am attracted to that. Your wife might be, too.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I bet she is very controlling. Control is what insecure people crave to alleviate their fears.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


They want to feel safe.

Feeling listened to and a priority to you can make her feel safe, Sam.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree with everything you say.
> 
> She is a bit fanatical about the diet and exercise. I believe I can do the exercise. The diet will be tougher.
> 
> At the end of last golf season I was visibly limping because of the hip. I don't ride a cart as I like the exercise. Our course is quite hilly so it isn't an easy walk. I was playing 3 times a week with the guys and twice a week with her.
> 
> I went to the doctor and they did xrays and told me I have arthritis. I had a cortozone shot in the hip and it has done wonders. It has been 4 months and I can just start feeling the pain come back. I was hoping to wait until spring to have another one.
> 
> We have a work out room in the house. With a large TV, elliptical, treadmill and some weights. The elliptical doesn't bother my hip. I just need to get my butt in there more often.


Weights. 

Heavy ones. 

If your hip has trouble, do deep squats and work on your core. 

If nothing else it will clear your mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

farsidejunky said:


> I agree. But the problem is with the stubbornness. I said on more than one occasion that my wife could keep her pride, or keep me, but not both.
> 
> Yes, she hurts. But they are both using emotions as a weapon. The phone conversation about the ski trip? She was seeking his validation. He was seeking hers.
> 
> Sam, try this as an experiment. When she gets back, I want you to tell her this:
> 
> "Wife, I am going to lunch at x (someplace y'all both love). I want you to come with me."
> 
> I have money that says she will like to hear that. I did this one day with my wife, and it was when it was really questionable as to whether or not we were going to make it. She BEAMED.
> 
> My wife is insecure, and she responds with anger because it takes next to nothing for me to hurt her. This was 6 months after I told her that our marriage/intimacy would improve or I would divorce her.
> 
> Just try it and post the results.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I will do this. Whenever I have done this in the past she will come and we have a good time. I just have to give her a heads up as she usually spends the mornings in the gym and she will be in her workout clothes.

I just wish she would do something like this for us. Wish she would plan a lunch. A rendezvous in a hotel in the afternoon. I wish it wasn't always on me.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> He needs to realize that 99% of what he is responding to is a joke.
> 
> Because it is a joke. And it deserves to be treated like one.
> 
> While he gets at the 1% that is real that is driving the 99% that is fiction.
> 
> I mean look at the cookie story. I would have asked her what planet she is on that she gets to pull **** like that, while simultaneously realizing that the elephant in the room is that she doesn't feel like she can trust him to deliver on his commitments.
> 
> So it comes out like "you need to do what I want my way" so she can feel safe. That's mommy talk, man.
> 
> That's back to the glass on the countertop scenario. You can't play into that. Deliver on your commitments your way 100% of the time. Not her commitments for you.
> 
> Pushing back assertively on bull**** while meeting your commitments and giving her quality time will work wonders.
> 
> As will the other stuff far and ump and I've been saying.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would not talk to her aggressively. No saying things like "pulling ****." That will be taken as an attack.

I would lay down weapons, Sam, not pick them up.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I would not talk to her aggressively. No saying things like "pulling ****." That will be taken as an attack.
> 
> I would lay down weapons, Sam, not pick them up.


Treating him like **** for days because he made cookies wrong is pulling some serious ****. 

And it would need to be called out. In fact, she might feel safer knowing he has the balls to do it. 

While not being pissy or passive aggressive about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fozzy

You guys have been fighting for over a month because of cookies.

This isn't something you can fix with weightlifting or long hugs.

You guys need marriage counseling.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> They want to feel safe.
> 
> Feeling listened to and a priority to you can make her feel safe, Sam.


F2 is very much this way. If she feels insecure towards me, she wants little to do with me. 

That does not mean we are without boundaries. I still call her out on her $hit.

Sam, there was a time when I needed validation from her. It was largely because I did not really see my own worth. When I recognized my worth, I still didn't quite believe it. Then, I started believing it. 

I am 40, fit, retired from the military and on to a second career, just finished my MBA, the head of the leadership team in my church, started a small business that is growing by leaps and bounds, and I believe myself to be (perhaps delusionally) a solid 6+ on the sex rank. I had a TON to be proud of. Yet I was still seeking her validation. 

I finally realized that I didn't need her to feel loved. I loved myself and my acconplishments. When that clicked, her validation became mostly unimportant. And as soon as that happened, she started seeking me out. She needed me th be near her. Before, I initiated most of the time at about a 60% success rate. Now she initiates about 75% of thr time. I have not been told no in months. Months, Sam.

All because I realized I did not need her validation because I loved myself.

Think about that.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Treating him like **** for days because he made cookies wrong is pulling some serious ****.
> 
> And it would need to be called out. In fact, she might feel safer knowing he has the balls to do it.
> 
> While not being pissy or passive aggressive about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know your wife best, Sam. If she accepts that kind of language, good enough. I would find it threatening.


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> You guys have been fighting for over a month because of cookies.
> 
> This isn't something you can fix with weightlifting or long hugs.
> 
> You guys need marriage counseling.


MC is going to teach them the same things we are talking about here: listening, seeking to understand, being kind and compassionate with each other.

But it would surely be easier with a live coach.


----------



## jld

Far, do you use words like "****" with your wife?

How does she respond?


----------



## Fozzy

jld said:


> MC is going to teach them the same things we are talking about here: listening, seeking to understand, being kind and compassionate with each other.
> 
> But it would surely be easier with a live coach.


MC isn't going to give them opposite end of the spectrum opinions at the same time and leave them confused.

More importantly, MC will have both of them engaged rather than just one of them.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Vulnerability is moving, Sam. Don't underestimate the love she still holds in her heart for you. Tap into it.


JLD, you have to be able to see that this poster's situation is nothing like yours. You think you want vulnerability because Dug never is. SadSam has been doing that schtick for years. You are projecting your own harlequin romance fantasy.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> F2 is very much this way. If she feels insecure towards me, she wants little to do with me.
> 
> That does not mean we are without boundaries. I still call her out on her $hit.
> 
> Sam, there was a time when I needed validation from her. It was largely because I did not really see my own worth. When I recognized my worth, I still didn't quite believe it. Then, I started believing it.
> 
> I am 40, fit, retired from the military and on to a second career, just finished my MBA, the head of the leadership team in my church, started a small business that is growing by leaps and bounds, and I believe myself to be (perhaps delusionally) a solid 6+ on the sex rank. I had a TON to be proud of. Yet I was still seeking her validation. I finally realized that I didn't need her to feel loved. I loved myself and my acconplishments. When that clicked, her validation became mostly unimportant. And as soon as that happened, she started seeking me out. She needed me th be near her. Before, I initiated most of the time at about a 60% success rate. Now she initiates about 75% of thr time. I have not been told no in months. Months, Sam.
> 
> All because I realized I did not need her validation because I loved myself.
> 
> Think about that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


THANK YOU!!!! YES!! Which is exactly why doing more without THIS is a waste of time. Great post far!


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> MC isn't going to give them opposite end of the spectrum opinions at the same time and leave them confused.
> 
> More importantly, MC will have both of them engaged rather than just one of them.


True. 

We are just a free counseling service, Sam.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Over muffins and cookies?
> 
> I would have also been initially bothered that the wrong muffins were made and that the cookies looked different. But i would have quickly gotten over it when I saw that everyone like them anyway. Is she not able to see the big picture: everyone got cookies and muffins? Is she controlling?


It wasn't about the muffins and cookies. She was just stressed about Christmas and the trip. She understood that she should have told me what recipe to use for the muffins. It wasn't that big of a deal. 

The fight is because of the rejection.

I just thought that once we were there and doing stuff together, that she would want to be close to me.

Sometimes I suck up to her after being rejected. I help more around the house. I spend more time with her. She is grumpy but we eventually start getting along. It might take a few nights, but eventually she allows me to hug her and we make love. 

If I handle it this way, the fight might last a week or 10 days. In the end I feel like she is only putting up with me. That she doesn't really want to be with me.

Other times I get pissed off and start doing my own thing. I go downstairs and watch hockey or whatever I want to watch (instead of watching some housewives thing with her). I figure I tried and if she wants me, then she knows where I am. This means the fight goes on forever. She never has given in to show she actually cares.

Eventually I give in. Start spending time around her. She will say something like, "So now you want to talk to me. You have been ignoring me for weeks." Never once does she think that she could have come to me. She could have started a conversation. She could have reached out to me. 

And in the end, we end up back together. And I again feel not wanted, desired or loved.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> She might feel her sense of self worth threatened. Her kids are grown and her husband can bake as well as she does. What value does she have anymore, she might wonder.
> 
> You could reassure her of her value, Sam. A little unconditional reassurance could go a long way.


Or her sense of BMW and free ride might be threatened.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> JLD, you have to be able to see that this poster's situation is nothing like yours. You think you want vulnerability because Dug never is. SadSam has been doing that schtick for years. You are projecting your own harlequin romance fantasy.


I remember FF saying the same thing a year ago, NS. She listens intently to her husband when he is vulnerable with her.

Vulnerable does not have to mean needy, Sam. Just sincerely sharing from your heart.


----------



## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> I will do this. Whenever I have done this in the past she will come and we have a good time. I just have to give her a heads up as she usually spends the mornings in the gym and she will be in her workout clothes.
> 
> I just wish she would do something like this for us. Wish she would plan a lunch. A rendezvous in a hotel in the afternoon. I wish it wasn't always on me.


Why?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## SadSamIAm

farsidejunky said:


> I bet she is very controlling. Control is what insecure people crave to alleviate their fears.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


She is very insecure. She is beautiful, but she can't go anywhere unless her hair and makeup is perfect. She spends a lot of effort on her appearance. 

I think she is also very particular about the house being neat and tidy because of insecurity. If someone was to drop by and everything wasn't perfect, she would look like a bad housekeeper.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> It wasn't about the muffins and cookies. She was just stressed about Christmas and the trip. She understood that she should have told me what recipe to use for the muffins. It wasn't that big of a deal.
> 
> The fight is because of the rejection.
> 
> I just thought that once we were there and doing stuff together, that she would want to be close to me.
> 
> Sometimes I suck up to her after being rejected. I help more around the house. I spend more time with her. She is grumpy but we eventually start getting along. It might take a few nights, but eventually she allows me to hug her and we make love.
> 
> If I handle it this way, the fight might last a week or 10 days. In the end I feel like she is only putting up with me. That she doesn't really want to be with me.
> 
> Other times I get pissed off and start doing my own thing. I go downstairs and watch hockey or whatever I want to watch (instead of watching some housewives thing with her). I figure I tried and if she wants me, then she knows where I am. This means the fight goes on forever. She never has given in to show she actually cares.
> 
> Eventually I give in. Start spending time around her. She will say something like, "So now you want to talk to me. You have been ignoring me for weeks." Never once does she think that she could have come to me. She could have started a conversation. She could have reached out to me.
> 
> And in the end, we end up back together. And I again feel not wanted, desired or loved.


Not every woman is a leader in her marriage, Sam.

Why not do what you know works?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> It wasn't about the muffins and cookies. She was just stressed about Christmas and the trip. She understood that she should have told me what recipe to use for the muffins. It wasn't that big of a deal.
> 
> The fight is because of the rejection.
> 
> I just thought that once we were there and doing stuff together, that she would want to be close to me.
> 
> Sometimes I suck up to her after being rejected. I help more around the house. I spend more time with her. She is grumpy but we eventually start getting along. It might take a few nights, but eventually she allows me to hug her and we make love.
> 
> If I handle it this way, the fight might last a week or 10 days. In the end I feel like she is only putting up with me. That she doesn't really want to be with me.
> 
> Other times I get pissed off and start doing my own thing. I go downstairs and watch hockey or whatever I want to watch (instead of watching some housewives thing with her). I figure I tried and if she wants me, then she knows where I am. This means the fight goes on forever. She never has given in to show she actually cares.
> 
> Eventually I give in. Start spending time around her. She will say something like, "So now you want to talk to me. You have been ignoring me for weeks." Never once does she think that she could have come to me. She could have started a conversation. She could have reached out to me.
> 
> And in the end, we end up back together. And I again feel not wanted, desired or loved.


omg you are killing me Sam... she is running this show 100%


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Or her sense of BMW and free ride might be threatened.


He said she is not materialistic.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> Or her sense of BMW and free ride might be threatened.


Preach it Sister...


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> She is very insecure. She is beautiful, but she can't go anywhere unless her hair and makeup is perfect. She spends a lot of effort on her appearance.
> 
> I think she is also very particular about the house being neat and tidy because of insecurity. If someone was to drop by and everything wasn't perfect, she would look like a bad housekeeper.


Probably lifelong insecurity. That is very sad.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Far, do you use words like "****" with your wife?
> 
> How does she respond?


I am more gentle in my wording in the moment, because she is more volatile. 

Later? I will rib her in a fun way (not passive aggressive) about it. 

Me: I don't know who this person is with me now. She is nice! Who are you and what have you done with my ***** of a wife?

Her, laughing: Shut up!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

NobodySpecial said:


> JLD, you have to be able to see that this poster's situation is nothing like yours. You think you want vulnerability because Dug never is. SadSam has been doing that schtick for years. You are projecting your own harlequin romance fantasy.


He has. While he has been passive aggressive in seeking validation from her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I am more gentle in my wording in the moment, because she is mre volatile.
> 
> Later? I will rib her in a fun way (not passive aggressive) about it.
> 
> Me: I don't know who this person is with me now. She is nice! Who are you and what have you done with my ***** of a wife?
> 
> Her, laughing: Shut up!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Okay. It sounds like she uses aggressive language with you, too. If you are both okay with it, then it works for you.


----------



## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> It wasn't about the muffins and cookies. She was just stressed about Christmas and the trip. She understood that she should have told me what recipe to use for the muffins. It wasn't that big of a deal.
> 
> The fight is because of the rejection.
> 
> I just thought that once we were there and doing stuff together, that she would want to be close to me.
> 
> Sometimes I suck up to her after being rejected. I help more around the house. I spend more time with her. She is grumpy but we eventually start getting along. It might take a few nights, but eventually she allows me to hug her and we make love.
> 
> If I handle it this way, the fight might last a week or 10 days. In the end I feel like she is only putting up with me. That she doesn't really want to be with me.
> 
> Other times I get pissed off and start doing my own thing. I go downstairs and watch hockey or whatever I want to watch (instead of watching some housewives thing with her). I figure I tried and if she wants me, then she knows where I am. This means the fight goes on forever. She never has given in to show she actually cares.
> 
> Eventually I give in. Start spending time around her. She will say something like, "So now you want to talk to me. You have been ignoring me for weeks." Never once does she think that she could have come to me. She could have started a conversation. She could have reached out to me.
> 
> And in the end, we end up back together. And I again feel not wanted, desired or loved.


Sam:

You HAVE to read Hold On To Your N.U.T's. MUST READ. 

She doesn't apologize with words, does she? She probably does things like elbowing you, or trying to be super nice...anything to not apologize, right?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> She is very insecure. She is beautiful, but she can't go anywhere unless her hair and makeup is perfect. She spends a lot of effort on her appearance.
> 
> I think she is also very particular about the house being neat and tidy because of insecurity. If someone was to drop by and everything wasn't perfect, she would look like a bad housekeeper.


You need to rock her world.... ravage her in every room in the house. Leave it a mess and hire a maid to clean it up behind yall...

Change SOMETHING.. she is too uptight!


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> He has. *While he has been passive aggressive in seeking validation from her.*
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


The bolded is a problem. I don't think plain vulnerability is a problem.

Dug says it is fine to share your feelings with your wife. He says you just cannot expect her to take responsibility for your feelings.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> The bolded is a problem. I don't think plain vulnerability is a problem.
> 
> Dug says it is fine to share your feelings with your wife. He says you just cannot expect her to take responsibility for your feelings.


And the same is true in reverse.


----------



## farsidejunky

Look, y'all. Every one of you knows I disagree with JLD more than I agree with her.

She has your wife pegged, Sam. The same way she had mine pegged. 

I would encourage you to listen very carefully to her in this instance.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> You need to rock her world.... ravage her in every room in the house. Leave it a mess and hire a maid to clean it up behind yall...
> 
> Change SOMETHING.. she is too uptight!


Her appearance is her security blanket. People do not react well to having their security blanket pulled away.

But helping them feel secure might have them letting go of it all on their own . . .


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Look, y'all. Every one of you knows I disagree with JLD more than I agree with her.
> 
> She has your wife pegged, Sam. The same way she had mine pegged.
> 
> I would encourage you to listen very carefully to her in this instance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Oh, no. I can't handle the pressure!


----------



## SadSamIAm

farsidejunky said:


> Why?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk



If you reach out to hug someone and they push you away, then you know they don't want you close to them.

When you reach out to someone and they hug you back, you think maybe they want to be close to you.

But when they reach out to hug you, you know they want to be there.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I remember FF saying the same thing a year ago, NS. She listens intently to her husband when he is vulnerable with her.
> 
> Vulnerable does not have to mean needy, Sam. Just sincerely sharing from your heart.


FF is not this poster.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Her appearance is her security blanket. People do not react well to having their security blanket pulled away.
> 
> But helping them feel secure might have them letting go of it all on their own . . .


Maybe


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> If you reach out to hug someone and they push you away, then you know they don't want you close to them.
> 
> When you reach out to someone and they hug you back, you think maybe they want to be close to you.
> 
> But when they reach out to hug you, you know they want to be there.


Think about the times she has reached out to hug you. What inspired her to do that?


----------



## BetrayedDad

SadSamIAm said:


> Sometimes I suck up to her after being rejected. I help more around the house. I spend more time with her.





SadSamIAm said:


> It might take a few nights, but eventually she allows me to hug her and we make love.





SadSamIAm said:


> I figure I tried and if she wants me, then she knows where I am. This means the fight goes on forever. She never has given in to show she actually cares.
> 
> Eventually I give in.


Urgh.... Cringe worthy. Stop catering to this person. She has your balls in her purse.



SadSamIAm said:


> And in the end, we end up back together. And I again feel not wanted, desired or loved.


Because she turned you into her doormat. Doormats don't get a lot of love. The just get walked all over.

Sad is an understatement @SadSamIAm


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> He said she is not materialistic.


I would think the bubble you live in was really cute if you didn't give people advice on the internet.


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> She is a bit fanatical about the diet and exercise. I believe I can do the exercise. The diet will be tougher.
> 
> I went to the doctor and they did xrays and told me I have arthritis. I had a cortozone shot in the hip and it has done wonders. It has been 4 months and I can just start feeling the pain come back. I was hoping to wait until spring to have another one.
> 
> We have a work out room in the house. With a large TV, elliptical, treadmill and some weights. The elliptical doesn't bother my hip. I just need to get my butt in there more often.


Even though she is a bit fanatical, you don't have to go that far. However, once you start eating better and working out, you might find yourself getting fanatical too as you see and feel the improvements in yourself.

Is your sore hip the main reason for your not working out? I ask because I don't like to work out alone, but I do like to do things with people. 

Can you go in for another shot sooner than you had planned? Although the shots can cause the joints to degenerate quicker if you get too many, at least you will not be in pain. I knew a woman who had crippling arthritis throughout her body, and she felt great from the shots, and her life was greatly improved, not hurt by them.

Rent some good movies to watch on that big screen tv to distract you while you start working out lightly.


----------



## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> If you reach out to hug someone and they push you away, then you know they don't want you close to them.
> 
> When you reach out to someone and they hug you back, you think maybe they want to be close to you.
> 
> But when they reach out to hug you, you know they want to be there.


Sam:

Hurt people hurt people.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## SadSamIAm

farsidejunky said:


> Sam:
> 
> You HAVE to read Hold On To Your N.U.T's. MUST READ.
> 
> She doesn't apologize with words, does she? She probably does things like elbowing you, or trying to be super nice...anything to not apologize, right?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I need to read it AGAIN.

No she never apologizes. She is the same with the kids. 

No she doesn't elbow or be super nice. She doesn't do anything.

Eventually she might talk to me if I initiate the conversation. Eventually she might allow me to hug her. Eventually she might want to be intimate with me. Only then does she sometimes apologize.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Her appearance is her security blanket. People do not react well to having their security blanket pulled away.
> 
> But helping them feel secure might have them letting go of it all on their own . . .


Which is why he needs to deliver on his commitments 100%. 

No ifs, ands, or buts. 100%. 

The exercise and the rest of it is for him. He needs to stop seeking validation from her in order to feel good about himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> I need to read it AGAIN.
> 
> No she never apologizes. She is the same with the kids.
> 
> No she doesn't elbow or be super nice. She doesn't do anything.
> 
> Eventually she might talk to me if I initiate the conversation. Eventually she might allow me to hug her. Eventually she might want to be intimate with me. Only then does she sometimes apologize.


Because she fears your rejection. 

Which is exactly how she perceives you needing her validation after she has been snotty to you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I need to read it AGAIN.
> 
> No she never apologizes. She is the same with the kids.
> 
> No she doesn't elbow or be super nice. She doesn't do anything.
> 
> Eventually she might talk to me if I initiate the conversation. Eventually she might allow me to hug her. Eventually she might want to be intimate with me. Only then does she sometimes apologize.


In her mind, she's hot and fit and disciplined and you're out of shape and old and don't deliver on your commitments. 

She's worried her hotness will slip, so you'll see escalation in her insecurity. 

Let her find it in her husband who's strong and doesn't take **** and delivers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Which is why he needs to deliver on his commitments 100%.
> 
> No ifs, ands, or buts. 100%.
> 
> The exercise and the rest of it is for him. He needs to stop seeking validation from her in order to feel good about himself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed. He also needs to validate *her.*


----------



## Adelais

jld said:


> She might feel her sense of self worth threatened. Her kids are grown and her husband can bake as well as she does. What value does she have anymore, she might wonder.
> 
> You could reassure her of her value, Sam. A little unconditional reassurance could go a long way.


I hope she believes she can do more than bake.

Sam, what else does your wife believe she does well? Does she have a realistic self esteem?


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> In her mind, she's hot and fit and disciplined and you're out of shape and old and don't deliver on your commitments.
> 
> She's worried her hotness will slip, so you'll see escalation in her insecurity.
> 
> Let her find it in her husband who's strong and doesn't take **** and delivers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really do not think this is about appearance.

And I would focus way more on kindness and understanding than any sort of discipline.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Because she fears your rejection.
> 
> Which is exactly how she perceives you needing her validation after she has been snotty to you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Is this how it was in your marriage, far?


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> You need to rock her world.... ravage her in every room in the house. Leave it a mess and hire a maid to clean it up behind yall...
> 
> Change SOMETHING.. she is too uptight!


Hey, its been 30 years. I have tried it all. 

Maid is out of the question. I have offered to hire a maid. She is too scared someone would find out that she doesn't have a job and has a maid. Also, she would have to clean the house before the maid got there so she didn't think she was a ****ty housekeeper.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Is this how it was in your marriage, far?


To a tee.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> Think about the times she has reached out to hug you. What inspired her to do that?


I think the last time was 12 years ago at my mother's funeral.


----------



## farsidejunky

There are times where I still need an apology from her. And I can't lie, occasionally I still build resentment when she doesn't apologize. Most of time I get a non apology apology. She will give me an elbow with a smile, or try and be flirty, or cute, or even sweet. Toxic shame is incredibly powerful

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I really do not think this is about appearance.
> 
> And I would focus way more on kindness and understanding than any sort of discipline.


It's about what appearance represents for her. 

Why do you think fitness suddenly became a thing? Because she was getting old and her value might go down. 

Why do you think her hair and makeup have to be perfect? Because that's her value. 

Why does her house have to be perfect? Because as a sahm with adult children, if it's not, she's failed, and has no value. 

Why does she need quality time from him and lose her **** when he doesn't get it? Because she feels her value is slipping. 

Why won't she apologize? Because if she's wrong, she has no value. 

She has nothing else to fall back on. She doesn't work. She doesn't do anything but exist, and her reason for existence (children) is done. 

At the same time she feels her value is slipping, all she has to rely on with Sam is his word. Only Sam doesn't always deliver, Sam caves to her whims, Sam doesn't make her feel safe. In a way, Sam sweeping her **** under the rug and coming back probably made her feel less safe. 

And because Sam is a wet blanket about it, Sam is also the easy target for all of her insecurities and rage at the world that is slipping through her fingers. 

She's all bluff and bluster, Sam.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Adelais

jld said:


> What does "strong" feel like to you, IMFAR?


Strong to me means stepping up to the plate when he sees something needs to be done. It means not whining or feeling sorry for himself for making sacrifices, or going the extra mile. It means having feelings, but not being thin skinned. It means being even keeled, keeping his eyes on a goal and doing what it takes, with honesty and integrity, to get there.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> Hey, its been 30 years. I have tried it all.
> 
> Maid is out of the question. I have offered to hire a maid. She is too scared someone would find out that she doesn't have a job and has a maid. Also, she would have to clean the house before the maid got there so she didn't think she was a ****ty housekeeper.


So what do you suggest ....

What plan progresses your marriage to the degree that you don't have to stuff your feelings to get along and survive the porcupine?


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> Hey, its been 30 years. I have tried it all.
> 
> Maid is out of the question. I have offered to hire a maid. She is too scared someone would find out that she doesn't have a job and has a maid. Also, she would have to clean the house before the maid got there so she didn't think she was a ****ty housekeeper.


Appearances = value for her because she thinks she has nothing else to offer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

farsidejunky said:


> Sam:
> 
> You HAVE to read Hold On To Your N.U.T's. MUST READ.
> 
> She doesn't apologize with words, does she? She probably does things like elbowing you, or trying to be super nice...anything to not apologize, right?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


He has read it. Part of the problem is that, unlike you, he has not decided to value himself independantly. He is stuck in a should fight with himself. He SHOULD be valued for what he IS doing. He SHOULD be able to eat what he wants to eat and be comfortable in his skin. Of course he SHOULD be able to do all those things. But them ain't working. He has to decide

- status quo
- change
- leave

Waiting around for her to do something is not working. Caving in to her is not working.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I think the last time was 12 years ago at my mother's funeral.


OMG!!!! and you LIVE with THAT??? HOW?

My H and I are constantly hugging and kissing on each other, started by either and reciprocated by both!

TWELVE YEARS!!!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> He has read it. Part of the problem is that, unlike you, he has not decided to value himself independantly. He is stuck in a should fight with himself. He SHOULD be valued for what he IS doing. He SHOULD be able to eat what he wants to eat and be comfortable in his skin. Of course he SHOULD be able to do all those things. But them ain't working. He has to decide
> 
> - status quo
> - change
> - leave
> 
> Waiting around for her to do something is not working. Caving in to her is not working.


Amen Sister


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I think the last time was 12 years ago at my mother's funeral.


So she responds to genuine suffering on your part. Not something you want to have to rely on, though.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Even though she is a bit fanatical, you don't have to go that far. However, once you start eating better and working out, you might find yourself getting fanatical too as you see and feel the improvements in yourself.
> 
> Is your sore hip the main reason for your not working out? I ask because I don't like to work out alone, but I do like to do things with people.
> 
> Can you go in for another shot sooner than you had planned? Although the shots can cause the joints to degenerate quicker if you get too many, at least you will not be in pain. I knew a woman who had crippling arthritis throughout her body, and she felt great from the shots, and her life was greatly improved, not hurt by them.
> 
> Rent some good movies to watch on that big screen tv to distract you while you start working out lightly.


The main reason I don't work out often is because I am lazy. 

I like competing in a sport. I played squash for 25 years. This last year is the first I didn't because of my hip. I like golf because my buddies and I bet and talk trash the entire time. It is fun. I could ride a cart, but I walk because I want the exercise. 

I hate just running for the sake of running. I have never cared that much about my appearance or health to want to spend my life running. 

I know it ticks her off that I don't put in the effort. I need to do it for her. I also need to do it for myself. I think this is a major thing for her.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Appearances = value for her because she thinks she has nothing else to offer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very sad.


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> I just wish she would do something like this for us. Wish she would plan a lunch. A rendezvous in a hotel in the afternoon. I wish it wasn't always on me.


Have you specifically told her this? Can you tell her that from now on you will have one date a week. You expect her to plan the date every other time. Can you tell her that it is not a joke, and that it is very important to you, and one of the things that is making you reconsider if you want to remain married to her?

Can you tell her that the clock is ticking, and that you are seriously examining the marriage, and looking at what she is contributing to show you that she values you? In the event of a divorce, it sounds like she will have money, but she won't have you. Tell her that you need to know that she values your presence, and she needs to begin to show you that.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> The main reason I don't work out often is because I am lazy.
> 
> I like competing in a sport. I played squash for 25 years. This last year is the first I didn't because of my hip. I like golf because my buddies and I bet and talk trash the entire time. It is fun. I could ride a cart, but I walk because I want the exercise.
> 
> I hate just running for the sake of running. I have never cared that much about my appearance or health to want to spend my life running.
> 
> I know it ticks her off that I don't put in the effort. I need to do it for her. I also need to do it for myself. I think this is a major thing for her.


Running sucks and will screw up your hip so don't do it.

Weights. 

For you. 

Stop being lazy. You must kill the part of you that is lazy.

Not for her, for you. 

You're better than this, man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Strong to me means stepping up to the plate when he sees something needs to be done. It means not whining or feeling sorry for himself for making sacrifices, or going the extra mile. It means having feelings, but not being thin skinned. It means being even keeled, keeping his eyes on a goal and doing what it takes, with honesty and integrity, to get there.


I like this, IMFAR. I know I can say anything to my husband and it will not be held against me. We will just work through it, no blaming or shaming or withdrawal from him. It is really nice to have a strong man to lean on.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Very sad.


I did this, too. To my wife. 

I always showered attention on her because she was beautiful. And when she neared 40, she got very insecure. 

Because if I valued her for her beauty, and it was going away, then the attention would go away, too. 

My mistake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Have you specifically told her this? Can you tell her that from now on you will have one date a week. You expect her to plan the date every other time. Can you tell her that it is not a joke, and that it is very important to you, and one of the things that is making you reconsider if you want to remain married to her?
> 
> Can you tell her that the clock is ticking, and that you are seriously examining the marriage, and looking at what she is contributing to show you that she values you? In the event of a divorce, it sounds like she will have money, but she won't have you. Tell her that you need to know that she values your presence, and she needs to begin to show you that.


I think threats are risky. I prefer inspiration, myself.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I did this, too. To my wife.
> 
> I always showered attention on her because she was beautiful. And when she neared 40, she got very insecure.
> 
> Because if I valued her for her beauty, and it was going away, then the attention would go away, too.
> 
> My mistake.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How have you reassured her that you value her for more than beauty?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I think threats are risky. I prefer inspiration, myself.


The two can be one. 

"Wife, I haven't been awesome, and you're going to see some changes. I'd like for you to come on this journey with me, but only if you're going to step it up too. We can have it all, or we can have nothing, but either way I'm going to be a better man."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> The two can be one.
> 
> "Wife, I haven't been awesome, and you're going to see some changes. I'd like for you to come on this journey with me, but only if you're going to step it up too. We can have it all, or we can have nothing, but either way I'm going to be a better man."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That just feels threatening to me.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I hope she believes she can do more than bake.
> 
> Sam, what else does your wife believe she does well? Does she have a realistic self esteem?


I think this is an issue. She has been a MOM for a long time. She works very hard at it.

Her self esteem isn't great. She might have felt better about herself had she had a career. I think she is happy with our decision for her to stay home though.


----------



## SadSamIAm

farsidejunky said:


> There are times where I still need an apology from her. And I can't lie, occasionally I still build resentment when she doesn't apologize. Most of time I get a non apology apology. She will give me an elbow with a smile, or try and be flirty, or cute, or even sweet. Toxic shame is incredibly powerful
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think I could live with that!!!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sam.... WHY are you ok with such little affection?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> How have you reassured her that you value her for more than beauty?


I had to first take a hard look at her and see if I actually loved her for more than her beauty. 

And I won't lie, that was hard, because I overlooked a lot of bull**** in our marriage because she's hot. 

Especially through some of the stuff she's pulled. 

And we worked through it and continue to work through it and what I discovered is that for all the really crappy qualities my wife has, I truly admire her for a lot. A lot that will never change. Like her intelligence. Like her radical honesty even when it hurts (despite failures she's had there). For her courage to come from an overbearing family and do what she did. For her spirit. For her fire. 

I never wanted easy. I never needed easy. 

What I wanted and needed was someone who had my back and was worth fighting for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> It's about what appearance represents for her.
> 
> Why do you think fitness suddenly became a thing? Because she was getting old and her value might go down.
> 
> Why do you think her hair and makeup have to be perfect? Because that's her value.
> 
> Why does her house have to be perfect? Because as a sahm with adult children, if it's not, she's failed, and has no value.
> 
> Why does she need quality time from him and lose her **** when he doesn't get it? Because she feels her value is slipping.
> 
> Why won't she apologize? Because if she's wrong, she has no value.
> 
> She has nothing else to fall back on. She doesn't work. She doesn't do anything but exist, and her reason for existence (children) is done.
> 
> At the same time she feels her value is slipping, all she has to rely on with Sam is his word. Only Sam doesn't always deliver, Sam caves to her whims, Sam doesn't make her feel safe. In a way, Sam sweeping her **** under the rug and coming back probably made her feel less safe.
> 
> And because Sam is a wet blanket about it, Sam is also the easy target for all of her insecurities and rage at the world that is slipping through her fingers.
> 
> She's all bluff and bluster, Sam.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is it in a nutshell.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> That just feels threatening to me.


Good.

Her whole world might go away if she doesn't pull her head out of her ass. 

Best she has fair warning it's on it's way. 

No white knighting. No protecting her from the consequences of her own decisions. Own your ****.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> That is it in a nutshell.


So you have a scared hot wife. Who acts out. 

What are you going to do with her?

Take charge, Sam. She's tired of being the captain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Have you specifically told her this? Can you tell her that from now on you will have one date a week. You expect her to plan the date every other time. Can you tell her that it is not a joke, and that it is very important to you, and one of the things that is making you reconsider if you want to remain married to her?
> 
> Can you tell her that the clock is ticking, and that you are seriously examining the marriage, and looking at what she is contributing to show you that she values you? In the event of a divorce, it sounds like she will have money, but she won't have you. Tell her that you need to know that she values your presence, and she needs to begin to show you that.


Yes, we have talked about it often. When she is in a good mood, she just thanks me doing things for her. When she is in a bad mood, me asking her to do this is just something else that she would HAVE TO DO. Like having sex.


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> It's about what appearance represents for her.
> 
> Why do you think fitness suddenly became a thing? Because she was getting old and her value might go down.
> 
> Why do you think her hair and makeup have to be perfect? Because that's her value.
> 
> Why does her house have to be perfect? Because as a sahm with adult children, if it's not, she's failed, and has no value.
> 
> Why does she need quality time from him and lose her **** when he doesn't get it? Because she feels her value is slipping.
> 
> Why won't she apologize? Because if she's wrong, she has no value.
> 
> She has nothing else to fall back on. She doesn't work. She doesn't do anything but exist, and her reason for existence (children) is done.
> 
> At the same time she feels her value is slipping, all she has to rely on with Sam is his word. Only Sam doesn't always deliver, Sam caves to her whims, Sam doesn't make her feel safe. In a way, Sam sweeping her **** under the rug and coming back probably made her feel less safe.
> 
> And because Sam is a wet blanket about it, Sam is also the easy target for all of her insecurities and rage at the world that is slipping through her fingers.
> 
> She's all bluff and bluster, Sam.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sam has been here forever. This stuff is not new. Has MEM ever shared with him? He would be the perfect one.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> I did this, too. To my wife.
> 
> I always showered attention on her because she was beautiful. And when she neared 40, she got very insecure.
> 
> Because if I valued her for her beauty, and it was going away, then the attention would go away, too.
> 
> My mistake.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have never taken the attention away. I tell her all the time how beautiful she is. I tell her all the time how great she looks in the LuLu Lemon pants. 

I make sure I tell her all the time because I know she is insecure. 

Her friends tell her all the time. They have all aged much more than she has.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> Good.
> 
> Her whole world might go away if she doesn't pull her head out of her ass.
> 
> Best she has fair warning it's on it's way.
> 
> No white knighting. No protecting her from the consequences of her own decisions. Own your ****.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:allhail:


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> The two can be one.
> 
> "Wife, I haven't been awesome, and you're going to see some changes. I'd like for you to come on this journey with me, but only if you're going to step it up too. We can have it all, or we can have nothing, but either way I'm going to be a better man."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I think it would mean more to her if I just do it. I don't need to tell her. I need to show her.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I have never taken the attention away. I tell her all the time how beautiful she is. I tell her all the time how great she looks in the LuLu Lemon pants.
> 
> I make sure I tell her all the time because I know she is insecure.
> 
> Her friends tell her all the time. They have all aged much more than she has.


Shift the focus to things you truly admire about her that have nothing to do with her hotness.

While calling her out on her bull****.

And learning to be stronger.

And what fozzy said. Go talk to someone together.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> I think it would mean more to her if I just do it. I don't need to tell her. I need to show her.


A declaration without backing it up worsens your position.

Actions without declaring your intent may seem random or like it's just a fad.

A declaration that is backed up, and repeated when she asks you what the **** you're doing?

Golden.

Want your word to become more than enough for her?

Say what you're going to do, and then do it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> A declaration without backing it up worsens your position.
> 
> Actions without declaring your intent may seem random or like it's just a fad.
> 
> A declaration that is backed up, and repeated when she asks you what the **** you're doing?
> 
> Golden.
> 
> Want your word to become more than enough for her?
> 
> Say what you're going to do, and then do it.


Agree... its going to take both words and action

It is ALSO going to take knowing your own heart and what you need from this relationship, not just her needs.

The reason I say that is if I were in your shoes there is no way in HELL I could live with one hug in 12 years. No way no how. So PLEASE don't leave your emotional needs at the door.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sam.... WHY are you ok with such little affection?


What makes you think I am OK with it?

That is the reason for most of the fighting. I know I am not handling it properly, but I don't think I have ever said I am ok with it.


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> Sam has been here forever. This stuff is not new. Has MEM ever shared with him? He would be the perfect one.


Yes, MEM has. He has great advice.

I am thinking he has given up on me.


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> It wasn't about the muffins and cookies. She was just stressed about Christmas and the trip. She understood that she should have told me what recipe to use for the muffins. It wasn't that big of a deal.
> 
> The fight is because of the rejection.


So you made the cookies wrong, admitted it, apologized for it, and she still rejected you?

The reason I ask this is because as I read your post it felt eerily like my own marriage used to be and sometimes still is.

When my husband does something wrong by accident he used to not apologize. Because of his low self esteem, he would say something defensive, aggressive or flippant, like "If you don't like the muffins, you make them." Or "Why didn't you tell me it was the other recipe?" or "Who cares, they'll still be good."

I need him to at least recognize what he did, admit it, and acknowledge why I am disappointed.

His flippancy and desperate measures to avoid any fault upset me more than the mistake he made.

If you did actually acknowledge what you had done wrong, apologized and acknowledged her disappointment, she needed to let it go. If she can't let it go even after you have apologized, then you might not want to remain in an abusive relationship.

Is she abusive, or are you at fault for not owning your mistake and acknowledging her disappointment?



SadSamIAm said:


> I just thought that once we were there and doing stuff together, that she would want to be close to me.
> Sometimes* I suck up to her after being rejected.* I help more around the house. I spend more time with her. She is grumpy but we eventually start getting along. It might take a few nights, bu t eventually she *allows me* to* hug* her and we *make love. *
> 
> If I handle it this way, the fight might last a week or 10 days. In the end I feel like she is only putting up with me. That she doesn't really want to be with me.


Never "suck up" to her. You humiliate yourself, and it is a put off and feels manipulative to your wife. Especially when she feels your goal is physical intimacy.

This sounds like conflict avoidant behavior and manipulation. 

When my husband used to refuse to talk about an issue, and seemed to "suck up" to me instead of apologize, I would eventually be worn down and "allow" myself to be used for his gratification. (That is how I felt.) An honest and open conversation with apology and acknowledgement of his part in the earlier conflict would have cleared the air, and I would have gladly thrown myself in his arms, instead of "allowing" him to be with me.



SadSamIAm said:


> Other times I get pissed off and start doing my own thing. I go downstairs and watch hockey or whatever I want to watch (instead of watching some housewives thing with her). I figure I tried and if she wants me, then she knows where I am. This means the fight goes on forever. She never has given in to show she actually cares.


This type of behavior will only make you look uncaring and push her away further.



SadSamIAm said:


> Eventually I give in. Start spending time around her. She will say something like, "So now you want to talk to me. You have been ignoring me for weeks." Never once does she think that she could have come to me. She could have started a conversation. She could have reached out to me.
> 
> And in the end, we end up back together. And I again feel not wanted, desired or loved.


It sounds like the two of you are in a power game, combined with conflict avoidant behavior.

You both need to commit to complete honesty all the time. No more games. You both have to own your part in every conflict. Never play along when the other person refuses to own their part. Do not budge or suck up to make the peace. If the someone consistently refuses to own their part or doesn't have the grace to accept the other's weakness, you two will be better off getting a divorce to save your sanity and find some happiness.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Agree... its going to take both words and action
> 
> It is ALSO going to take knowing your own heart and what you need from this relationship, not just her needs.
> 
> The reason I say that is if I were in your shoes there is no way in HELL I could live with one hug in 12 years. No way no how. So PLEASE don't leave your emotional needs at the door.


I agree that I should talk to her and do it.

The question was when did she reach out to hug me. She hasn't reached out to me for 12 years. 

If I reach out to her, she will sometimes allow me to hug her and hug me back. It hasn't been 12 years since we hugged.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> What makes you think I am OK with it?
> 
> That is the reason for most of the fighting. I know I am not handling it properly, but I don't think I have ever said I am ok with it.


GOOD!! Glad to hear it, but why have you stayed this long without it? Its the length of time *with* it that communicates to me that you are ok without it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> Yes, MEM has. He has great advice.
> 
> I am thinking he has given up on me.


Why do you think this is? I am not trying to be mean. You ask for advice Over and Over. You read the book about not losing your NUTs. But you seem thoroughly unwilling to do the work. Unwilling? Or unable? Do YOU need to see someone?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree that I should talk to her and do it.
> 
> The question was when did she reach out to hug me. She hasn't reached out to me for 12 years.
> 
> If I reach out to her, she will sometimes allow me to hug her and hug me back. It hasn't been 12 years since we hugged.


That was the way I read it the first time, that it's been 12 years since she reached for you. I don't know how you live like that. I could not do that. No wonder you feel like it is all on you.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> So you made the cookies wrong, admitted it, apologized for it, and she still rejected you?
> 
> The reason I ask this is because as I read your post it felt eerily like my own marriage used to be and sometimes still is.
> 
> When my husband does something wrong by accident he used to not apologize. Because of his low self esteem, he would say something defensive, aggressive or flippant, like "If you don't like the muffins, you make them." Or "Why didn't you tell me it was the other recipe?" or "Who cares, they'll still be good."
> 
> I need him to at least recognize what he did, admit it, and acknowledge why I am disappointed.
> 
> His flippancy and desperate measures to avoid any fault upset me more than the mistake he made.
> 
> If you did actually acknowledge what you had done wrong, apologized and acknowledged her disappointment, she needed to let it go. If she can't let it go even after you have apologized, then you might not want to remain in an abusive relationship.
> 
> Is she abusive, or are you at fault for not owning your mistake and acknowledging her disappointment?
> 
> 
> Never "suck up" to her. You humiliate yourself, and it is a put off and feels manipulative to your wife. Especially when she feels your goal is physical intimacy.
> 
> This sounds like conflict avoidant behavior and manipulation.
> 
> When my husband used to refuse to talk about an issue, and seemed to "suck up" to me instead of apologize, I would eventually be worn down and "allow" myself to be used for his gratification. (That is how I felt.) An honest and open conversation with apology and acknowledgement of his part in the earlier conflict would have cleared the air, and I would have gladly thrown myself in his arms, instead of "allowing" him to be with me.
> 
> This type of behavior will only make you look uncaring and push her away further.
> 
> It sounds like the two of you are in a power game, combined with conflict avoidant behavior.
> 
> You both need to commit to complete honesty all the time. No more games. You both have to own your part in every conflict. Never play along when the other person refuses to own their part. Do not budge or suck up to make the peace. If the someone consistently refuses to own their part or doesn't have the grace to accept the other's weakness, you two will be better off getting a divorce to save your sanity and find some happiness.


Do you honestly believe she deserved an apology from me for the Muffins/Cookies?

I think both were honest mistakes. 

The muffin mistake was probably her mistake. She asked me to make Chococolate Chip Muffins and put out a recipe book showing two recipes. One called Chocolate Chip Muffins the other called Banana Muffins. Which one would you choose?

And then she says. "I should have done it myself". She should have said, "Thankyou".

I don't have a problem apologizing when I do something wrong. I do it all the time. My problem is I end up apologizing when I didn't do anything wrong. Like I did with the Muffins/Cookies.

How do you get back to communicating when one person refuses to apologize when they do something wrong? 

I have waited and waited and waited. It doesn't happen. So to make peace I end up sucking up. What other option is there?


----------



## Adelais

What happened before 12 years ago that caused your wife to stop initiating hugging and other physical affection? Ask her to think about what happened and to tell you when she figures it out. Think about your relationship prior to 12 years ago, and help her remember what happened. Maybe talking about it can help heal the wound.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> Do you honestly believe she deserved an apology from me for the Muffins/Cookies?
> 
> I think both were honest mistakes.
> 
> The muffin mistake was probably her mistake. She asked me to make Chococolate Chip Muffins and put out a recipe book showing two recipes. One called Chocolate Chip Muffins the other called Banana Muffins. Which one would you choose?
> 
> And then she says. "I should have done it myself". She should have said, "Thankyou".
> 
> I don't have a problem apologizing when I do something wrong. I do it all the time. My problem is I end up apologizing when I didn't do anything wrong. Like I did with the Muffins/Cookies.
> 
> How do you get back to communicating when one person refuses to apologize when they do something wrong?
> 
> I have waited and waited and waited. It doesn't happen. So to make peace I end up sucking up. What other option is there?


No way I'd apologize about the baking.

You apologize only when you've done something wrong. You don't apologize for every little bull**** thing that she gets bent out of shape about. That just devalues your apology, puts her on a pedastal, and screws everything up.

And no way should you have sucked up to her about it.

What you should have done is say (in your own way) "Wife, you being mad for days because I baked my way only hurts yourself and makes me respect you less. Is that what you want?"


----------



## Blossom Leigh

How long before the twelve years did she reach out for you? Is that normal for her?


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> Do you honestly believe she deserved an apology from me for the Muffins/Cookies?


Yes. Just a quick "Oh, I'm sorry I used the wrong recipe. I didn't know you put chocolate in the Banana Muffin recipe. And I'm sorry I made the cookies wrong. They won't be what everyone is used to, but I hope they taste alright."

An acknowledgment of what has happened goes a long way. Minimizing it and perhaps blaming her for being upset also goes a long way.



SadSamIAm said:


> I think both were *honest mistakes*.
> 
> The muffin mistake was probably her mistake. She asked me to make Chococolate Chip Muffins and put out a recipe book showing two recipes. One called Chocolate Chip Muffins the other called Banana Muffins. Which one would you choose?


They were both honest mistakes. The key word here is mistakes. Did you believe that you didn't have to apologize because it was a _honest_ mistake?

My daughter hit someone with her car. It was an honest mistake and she hit her because she was avoiding another hazard in the road. She still had to pay the fine and lost 4 points.

Because she was humble and accepted responsibility for her honest mistake she paid the minimum fine and didn't go to jail. Had she argued with the police officer and later with the judge she would have received a heavier fine and gone to jail too. That is what the judge told her.

Marriage is also like that. Even when we make honest mistakes, it helps the other person involved feel better about us and about the whole situation when we own our part, however small, even if it is also the other person's fault.



SadSamIAm said:


> And then she says. "I should have done it myself". She should have said, "Thankyou".
> 
> I don't have a problem apologizing when I do something wrong. I do it all the time. My problem is I end up apologizing when I didn't do anything wrong. Like I did with the Muffins/Cookies.Did you apologize for them? What you wrote above sounded like you didn't apologize because it was an "honest mistake."
> 
> How do you get back to communicating when one person refuses to apologize when they do something wrong?
> 
> I have waited and waited and waited. It doesn't happen. So to make peace I end up sucking up. What other option is there?


Never suck up. Always own your stuff, however small. Even when you made a mistake because someone else made a mistake first.


----------



## Adelais

Sometimes an apology makes one look stronger. A quick, "I'm sorry for ___." looks like it you are sincere but strong. You're sorry, it didn't hurt to apologize, and now let's move on.

You want apologies from your wife, yet you balk at apologizing for the muffins/cookies because in your opinion it was an honest mistake.

You also said that your wife values her role as a SAHM, and having her muffins and cookies just right would be important to her, even if it isn't important to you. It sounds like you don't truly understand how important some things are to her.

It sounds like you are in as much as a power struggle as your wife.

You both need to begin to talk about all this openly...even about stupid little muffins and cookies. These things are what build up and create WAW and WAH.


----------



## Marduk

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Yes. Just a quick "Oh, I'm sorry I used the wrong recipe. I didn't know you put chocolate in the Banana Muffin recipe. And I'm sorry I made the cookies wrong. They won't be what everyone is used to, but I hope they taste alright."
> 
> An acknowledgment of what has happened goes a long way. Minimizing it and perhaps blaming her for being upset also goes a long way.
> 
> 
> 
> They were both honest mistakes. The key word here is mistakes. Did you believe that you didn't have to apologize because it was a _honest_ mistake?
> 
> My daughter hit someone with her car. It was an honest mistake and she hit her because she was avoiding another hazard in the road. She still had to pay the fine and lost 4 points.
> 
> Because she was humble and accepted responsibility for her honest mistake she paid the minimum fine and didn't go to jail. Had she argued with the police officer and later with the judge she would have received a heavier fine and gone to jail too. That is what the judge told her.
> 
> Marriage is also like that. Even when we make honest mistakes, it helps the other person involved feel better about us and about the whole situation when we own our part, however small, even if it is also the other person's fault.
> 
> Never suck up. Always own your stuff, however small. Even when you made a mistake because someone else made a mistake first.


Careful. 

He has a history of sucking up to her and playing into her being right. 

Who's mistake was it? 

I think it was hers. If she was fixated on which one she wanted, she would have specified. 

The brown instead of the swirl... Maybe. But the wrong one was her mistake. 

I only harp on this because you white knight her so hard that it makes my head spin. 

She has to trust your word and your apology. If she gets a hint that you're apologizing for her mistake to make it all better, it will be for naught.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> How long before the twelve years did she reach out for you? Is that normal for her?


I think she has always been this way. She isn't a touchy feely type of person.

For the first 5 years or so, I never noticed. Because she always accepted my affection. I didn't notice that she never initiated it.

We had sex like bunnies. We would cuddle a bunch. But I believe it was always me initiating it. 

I don't mind initiating. I just hate getting rejected. Or not getting rejected but feeling like I was being serviced.

Sex and intimacy slowed down a bit after the 5 year mark. A couple of years later we started a family. Things slowed down more then. Life was very busy. But we both loved it. We had three kids and the oldest was three. I would come home from work some days and my wife would leave for three hours to wander a mall. I didn't blame her. For those years (when the kids were young) she worked much harder than I did. We would sometimes fight about intimacy because I still wanted it and she was too tired. But it didn't get as bad as now. We had too much going on.

Things got less again when the kids became teenagers because we would bump heads about discipline. This one has a lasting affect because my wife holds resentment because I didn't back her up like I should.

At the same time it worse again after her father died. He had his moments but for the most part he was an *******. He was an alcoholic. He was a narcissist. He was only happy if his everyone did what he wanted to do. He said a bunch of things to my wife when she was growing up that made her insecure about her body and shaped her attitude about sexuality. 

He died of Lung Cancer. Years of drinking and smoking. My wife spent the last 3 weeks or so with him. He was still relatively young (late 60s). The last couple of days were horrible. He was quite strong and the meds didn't seem to work and from the sounds of it, his death was very painful. My wife was his favorite child. She knows he was an *******, but she still loved him. My wife's sister was there at the end as well. She was (still is) very angry with her dad, because even at the end, when he was dying, he never told them that he loved them. He didn't tell his wife either. My wife thinks her sister is selfish for thinking that way about him. 

After the death of her father, my wife seems colder to me. She is also much more fanatical about her health. He died about 6 years ago. 

So she has never been very affectionate.


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> No way I'd apologize about the baking.
> 
> You apologize only when you've done something wrong. You don't apologize for every little bull**** thing that she gets bent out of shape about. That just devalues your apology, puts her on a pedastal, and screws everything up.
> 
> And no way should you have sucked up to her about it.
> 
> What you should have done is say (in your own way) "Wife, you being mad for days because I baked my way only hurts yourself and makes me respect you less. Is that what you want?"


We are making too much of the baking. At the time, the baking seemed like a big deal. She was rude about it, but it wasn't what caused the problem.

The problem was the next few days when we were spending a bunch of time together and she was rejecting me for 3 days in a row. Usually when we have spent a bunch of time together we are intimate. Especially when away at the Condo in the mountains :smile2:


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Yes. Just a quick "Oh, I'm sorry I used the wrong recipe. I didn't know you put chocolate in the Banana Muffin recipe. And I'm sorry I made the cookies wrong. They won't be what everyone is used to, but I hope they taste alright."
> 
> An acknowledgment of what has happened goes a long way. Minimizing it and perhaps blaming her for being upset also goes a long way.
> 
> 
> 
> They were both honest mistakes. The key word here is mistakes. Did you believe that you didn't have to apologize because it was a _honest_ mistake?
> 
> My daughter hit someone with her car. It was an honest mistake and she hit her because she was avoiding another hazard in the road. She still had to pay the fine and lost 4 points.
> 
> Because she was humble and accepted responsibility for her honest mistake she paid the minimum fine and didn't go to jail. Had she argued with the police officer and later with the judge she would have received a heavier fine and gone to jail too. That is what the judge told her.
> 
> Marriage is also like that. Even when we make honest mistakes, it helps the other person involved feel better about us and about the whole situation when we own our part, however small, even if it is also the other person's fault.
> 
> Never suck up. Always own your stuff, however small. Even when you made a mistake because someone else made a mistake first.


I am sure I apologized. It might not have sounded too sincere.

In retrospect, I should have told her next time she make it herself.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Careful.
> 
> He has a history of sucking up to her and playing into her being right.
> 
> Who's mistake was it?
> 
> I think it was hers. If she was fixated on which one she wanted, she would have specified.
> 
> The brown instead of the swirl... Maybe. But the wrong one was her mistake.
> 
> I only harp on this because you white knight her so hard that it makes my head spin.
> 
> She has to trust your word and your apology. *If she gets a hint that you're apologizing for her mistake to make it all better, it will be for naught.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think in reality, that is sometimes what an apology is: a way to soothe the other person's bruised feelings.

And how do you see him white knighting her?


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I am sure I apologized. It might not have sounded too sincere.
> 
> In retrospect,* I should have told her next time she make it herself*.


And how would that help?


----------



## SadSamIAm

marduk said:


> Careful.
> 
> He has a history of sucking up to her and playing into her being right.
> 
> Who's mistake was it?
> 
> I think it was hers. If she was fixated on which one she wanted, she would have specified.
> 
> The brown instead of the swirl... Maybe. But the wrong one was her mistake.
> 
> I only harp on this because you white knight her so hard that it makes my head spin.
> 
> She has to trust your word and your apology. If she gets a hint that you're apologizing for her mistake to make it all better, it will be for naught.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What makes it tougher, is you are telling me to apologize to someone that virtually never apologizes for anything.

If I do something wrong. I do apologize. And I do it sincerely.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> We are making too much of the baking. At the time, the baking seemed like a big deal. She was rude about it, but it wasn't what caused the problem.
> 
> The problem was the next few days when we were spending a bunch of time together and she was rejecting me for 3 days in a row. Usually when we have spent a bunch of time together we are intimate. Especially when away at the Condo in the mountains :smile2:


To you the rejection was the problem. To her, what precipitated the rejection was likely the problem.

Does she like for you to draw her out? Will she open up to you about her resentment if you approach her?


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> And how would that help?


It might give her a glance at my NUTS


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> What makes it tougher, is you are telling me to apologize to someone that virtually never apologizes for anything.
> 
> If I do something wrong. I do apologize. And I do it sincerely.


That is good. 

It must be hard to be someone who never feels safe enough to apologize.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> It might give her a glance at my NUTS


How do you think she would respond?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I think in reality, that is sometimes what an apology is: a way to soothe the other person's bruised feelings.
> 
> And how do you see him white knighting her?


Every time he sucks up to her when she's being a *****, he white knights her. 

Every time he initiates sex when she's shut down as a power play, he white knights her. 

Every time he rug sweeps her bad behaviour he white knights her. 

Every time he continues providing financial freedom with no expectation that she contribute in return he white knights her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> To you the rejection was the problem. To her, what precipitated the rejection was likely the problem.


Correct, but neither of which was the baking. 

I am sure for her it was many things that precipitated the rejection. Probably things that happen years ago that she still holds resentment over. When we argue, she will bring up things from before we were even married.



> Does she like for you to draw her out? Will she open up to you about her resentment if you approach her?


Not sure what you mean. I am guessing the answer is no


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> How do you think she would respond?


I'm guessing the exact same as what I got.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> What makes it tougher, is you are telling me to apologize to someone that virtually never apologizes for anything.
> 
> If I do something wrong. I do apologize. And I do it sincerely.


If your last statement holds true no matter what she does, you're good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Every time he sucks up to her when she's being a *****, he white knights her.
> 
> Every time he initiates sex when she's shut down as a power play, he white knights her.
> 
> Every time he rug sweeps her bad behaviour he white knights her.
> 
> Every time he continues providing financial freedom with no expectation that she contribute in return he white knights her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


White knighting is rescuing someone instead of their growing from facing the consequences of their actions, correct?

You are assuming he is correct in everything he is doing. I don't think he will revive their relationship with that kind of thinking.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Correct, but neither of which was the baking.
> 
> I am sure for her it was many things that precipitated the rejection. Probably things that happen years ago that she still holds resentment over. When we argue, she will bring up things from before we were even married.
> 
> How do you then respond?
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean. I am guessing the answer is no


I mean do you wait patiently, ask her open ended questions? Does she feel safe opening her heart to you?

A wife may not risk opening her heart if she thinks she will be rejected in some way.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I'm guessing the exact same as what I got.


I agree. That is why I would reject the "tough" approaches. I think they will just build more resentment.

I would focus on building her trust through approaching her with kindness and understanding. You have to be very strong to approach someone you feel hurt by with warmth and tenderness, and to persevere until they are willing to open up to you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I think she has always been this way. She isn't a touchy feely type of person.
> 
> For the first 5 years or so, I never noticed. Because she always accepted my affection. I didn't notice that she never initiated it.
> 
> We had sex like bunnies. We would cuddle a bunch. But I believe it was always me initiating it.
> 
> I don't mind initiating. I just hate getting rejected. Or not getting rejected but feeling like I was being serviced.
> 
> Sex and intimacy slowed down a bit after the 5 year mark. A couple of years later we started a family. Things slowed down more then. Life was very busy. But we both loved it. We had three kids and the oldest was three. I would come home from work some days and my wife would leave for three hours to wander a mall. I didn't blame her. For those years (when the kids were young) she worked much harder than I did. We would sometimes fight about intimacy because I still wanted it and she was too tired. But it didn't get as bad as now. We had too much going on.
> 
> Things got less again when the kids became teenagers because we would bump heads about discipline. This one has a lasting affect because my wife holds resentment because I didn't back her up like I should.
> 
> At the same time it worse again after her father died. He had his moments but for the most part he was an *******. He was an alcoholic. He was a narcissist. He was only happy if his everyone did what he wanted to do. He said a bunch of things to my wife when she was growing up that made her insecure about her body and shaped her attitude about sexuality.
> 
> He died of Lung Cancer. Years of drinking and smoking. My wife spent the last 3 weeks or so with him. He was still relatively young (late 60s). The last couple of days were horrible. He was quite strong and the meds didn't seem to work and from the sounds of it, his death was very painful. My wife was his favorite child. She knows he was an *******, but she still loved him. My wife's sister was there at the end as well. She was (still is) very angry with her dad, because even at the end, when he was dying, he never told them that he loved them. He didn't tell his wife either. My wife thinks her sister is selfish for thinking that way about him.
> 
> After the death of her father, my wife seems colder to me. She is also much more fanatical about her health. He died about 6 years ago.
> 
> So she has never been very affectionate.


You are married to an adult child of an alcoholic.


Adult Children of Alcoholics

Those resources will deepen your understanding of her. You can't fix her, but you can sure as heck choose what to put stock in and what not to put stock in.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> White knighting is rescuing someone instead of their growing from facing the consequences of their actions, correct?
> 
> You are assuming he is correct in everything he is doing. I don't think he will revive their relationship with that kind of thinking.


I'm assuming he is being honest. 

And reflecting on my own experience. 

When I rescue my wife from her own mistakes, she gets more anxious, more demanding, more controlling, less secure, and less confident. 

When I let her resolve her own mistakes, with support when needed, I see the opposite of that. 

Especially when she's worried about her own value.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I'm assuming he is being honest.
> 
> And reflecting on my own experience.
> 
> When I rescue my wife from her own mistakes, she gets more anxious, more demanding, more controlling, less secure, and less confident.
> 
> When I let her resolve her own mistakes, with support when needed, I see the opposite of that.
> 
> Especially when she's worried about her own value.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


His honesty and his wife's honesty may be different, no?

I am not sure what mistakes of his wife's you might be thinking of?


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I agree. That is why I would reject the "tough" approaches. I think they will just build more resentment.


One can be firm without being tough. 



> I would focus on building her trust through approaching her with kindness and understanding. You have to be very strong to approach someone you feel hurt by with warmth and tenderness, and to persevere until they are willing to open up to you.


One can be tender without capitulation. Wish MEM would give it another go.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> His honesty and his wife's honesty may be different, no?
> 
> I am not sure what mistakes of his wife's you might be thinking of?


I can name many....


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> His honesty and his wife's honesty may be different, no?
> 
> I am not sure what mistakes of his wife's you might be thinking of?


Being upset for days because of a baking mishap is clearly an error for an adult to make.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> One can be firm without being tough.
> 
> One can be tender without capitulation. Wish MEM would give it another go.


Firm when necessary. But I don't see her overspending or smoking or any other activity where I think he would be wise to be firm.

Genuinely listening to your partner is not what I think of as capitulation, unless you mean throwing away your pride and really seeking to understand her, no matter how humbling.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Being upset for days because of a baking mishap is clearly an error for an adult to make.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We don't get to decide what hurts her. And it sounds like the baking incident may just be a cover for deeper issues.

Judging her will not help him, Marduk. Seeking to understand and respect her feelings will.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> We don't get to decide what hurts her. And it sounds like the baking incident may just be a cover for deeper issues.
> 
> Judging her will not help him, Marduk. Seeking to understand and respect her feelings will.


I agree it shouldn't be judgemental. 100% with you there. 

But I think in his case it should be firm. 

And there's no way what she did was reasonable. In fact, I think it was designed by her - consciously or not - to be unreasonable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> You are married to an adult child of an alcoholic.
> 
> 
> Adult Children of Alcoholics
> 
> Those resources will deepen your understanding of her. You can't fix her, but you can sure as heck choose what to put stock in and what not to put stock in.


I didn't get much out of that link.

This list certainly rings true for a number of different things:

Adult Children of Alcoholics Characteristics & Personality

Thanks for this. I will do more reading.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Firm when necessary. But I don't see her overspending or smoking or any other activity where I think he would be wise to be firm.
> 
> Genuinely listening to your partner is not what I think of as capitulation, unless you mean throwing away your pride and really seeking to understand her, no matter how humbling.


The issue is not the abstract rightness or wrongness. The issue is his TENDENCY to capitulate in the face of her tantrums.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I agree it shouldn't be judgemental. 100% with you there.
> 
> But I think in his case it should be firm.
> 
> And there's no way what she did was reasonable. In fact, I think it was designed by her - consciously or not - to be unreasonable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Emotions are not necessarily reasonable.

I think he could be firm with himself. Not allow himself to become needy or whiny, nor to take her words personally. That would show great maturity, and likely inspire his wife.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> We don't get to decide what hurts her.


No. But he CAN decide when he is going to tolerate, and even appease, tantrum behavior. There is a REASON not to appease tantrum behavior in toddlers, because it retards their ability to grow past it. Alas, that is the same with some behaviors in grown ups who are masking some other issue.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> The issue is not the abstract rightness or wrongness. The issue is his TENDENCY to capitulate in the face of her tantrums.


Again, I am not seeing capitulation. What exactly do you want him to do when he is leaving the family and gets called back for a car crisis, and sees her crying?

To me, the answer was not leaving in the first place.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I didn't get much out of that link.
> 
> This list certainly rings true for a number of different things:
> 
> Adult Children of Alcoholics Characteristics & Personality
> 
> Thanks for this. I will do more reading.


Yea... get their big red book... explains a lot.

You are very welcome.


----------



## SadSamIAm

From my description of things does much of this sound true to you guys?


Characteristics and Personality Traits of an Adult Child of an Alcoholic:

Fear of losing control.

Adult children of alcoholics maintain control over their behaviour and feelings. They also try to control the behaviour and feelings of others. They do this because they are afraid not because they want to hurt themselves or others. They fear that if they relinquish control their lives will get worse, and they can become very anxious when they are not able to control a situation.

Fear of Emotions or Feelings

Adult children of alcoholics tend to bury their feelings (particularly anger and sadness) since childhood and are not able to feel or express emotions easily. Ultimately they fear all powerful emotions and even fear positive emotions like fun and joy.

Avoid conflict

Adult children of alcoholics have a fear of people who are in authority, people who are angry, and do not take personal criticism very well. Often they misinterpret assertiveness for anger. Therefore, they are constantly seeking approval of others whilst losing their identities in the process. Frequently they isolate themselves.

A high burden of responsibility and constant approval seeking

Adult children of alcoholics are oversensitive to the needs of others. Their self-esteem comes from others’ judgments of them, thus having the compulsive need to be perfectionists and be accepted.

An inability to relax and have fun.

Adult children of alcoholics cannot have fun because it is stressful, especially when others are watching. The child inside is frightened, and in an effort to appear perfect, exercises strict self-control.

Harsh self-criticism and low self esteem

Adult children of alcoholics are weighed down with a very low sense of self-esteem and respect, no matter how competent they may be.

Denial

Whenever adult children of alcoholics feel threatened, they tend to deny that which provoke their fears.

Difficulties with intimacy

Adult children of alcoholics fear intimacy because it makes them feel that they lost control. They have difficulties expressing their needs and consequently have problems with their sexuality, and repeat relationship patterns.

Develop a victim mentality

Adult children of alcoholics may either be passive or aggressive victims, and are often attracted to others like them whether in friendships, career and love relationships.

Adopting compulsive behaviour

Adult children of alcoholics may eat compulsively or become workaholics. They may become addicted and co-dependent in a relationship, or behave compulsively in other ways. Sadly, they may abuse alcohol and become alcoholics like their parent(s).

More comfortable living in chaos or drama than in peace

Adult children of alcoholics become addicted to chaos and drama, which gives them their adrenaline fix and feelings of power and control.

The tendency to confuse love with pity.

Adult children of alcoholics are often in relationships with people they can rescue.

Abandonment issues

Adult children of alcoholics will do anything to save a relationship, rather than face the pain of abandonment even if the relationship is unhealthy.

Tendency to see everything and everyone in extremes, when under pressure

Physical illness

Adult children of alcoholics are highly susceptible to stress-related illnesses.

Suffering from an accumulation of grief.

Adult children of alcoholics are frequently depressed. Losses experienced during their childhood were often never grieved for because the alcoholic family doesn’t tolerate intense uncomfortable feelings.

Overreaction to outside changes

Adult children of alcoholics remain hyper vigilant, constantly scanning their surroundings for potential catastrophes.

Adult Children of Alcoholics Attracted to Compulsive Personalities

Many lose themselves in their relationship with others and sometimes find themselves attracted to alcoholics or other compulsive personalities - such as workaholics. They are generally attracted to those who are emotionally unavailable.
Adult children sometimes like to be the “rescuer” and will form relationships with others who need their help, to the extent of neglecting their own needs. What happens is that they place the focus on the needs of someone else whilst not having to examine their own difficulties and shortcomings.

Often, these adult children will acquire the characteristics of alcoholics, even if they never drink themselves. They can be in denial, develop poor coping strategies, have an inability to problem solve and form dysfunctional relationships.


----------



## jld

I think that covers a lot of folks, alcoholic parents or not.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> No. But he CAN decide when he is going to tolerate, and even appease, tantrum behavior. There is a REASON not to appease tantrum behavior in toddlers, because it retards their ability to grow past it. Alas, that is the same with some behaviors in grown ups who are masking some other issue.


I think anything other than seeking to understand, and then seeking to be understood, is going to perpetuate the unhealthy cycles they seem to have now.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I think anything other than seeking to understand, and then seeking to be understood, is going to perpetuate the unhealthy cycles they seem to have now.


There is nothing inconsistent about failing to tolerate tantrums and seeking understanding.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Emotions are not necessarily reasonable.
> 
> I think he could be firm with himself. Not allow himself to become needy or whiny, nor to take her words personally. That would show great maturity, and likely inspire his wife.


Emotional reasoning is extremely reasonable and rational. 

It just can be amoral, intellectually dishonest, and profoundly self-centred.

Which has a rationality all its own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think that covers a lot of folks, alcoholic parents or not.


Correct... ACOA found over time that their ranks included anyone with severe dysfunction in their family dynamics.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@SadSamIAm

You see.... I am an ACOA. One of the things that has helped me the MOST is choosing to no longer control my husbands love and learning to accept my husbands love the way HE tries to love me. From that I have learned his love has more expressions than my limited expectations and by allowing space for that to blossom my love life has become richer. But I am an ACOA who has done homework in this area and my husband has also done work. 

He just sent me facebook stickers that were absolutely freakin' adorable about his love for me and at the very end he sent me one that has a teary eyed puppy leaning over a heart saying he misses me. 

We are like love sick pups now. 

Take heart.... it's in there... its' just going to take time to uncover it and lots of homework, but you will have to understand what part belongs to you and what part belongs to her. This will NOT be a situation where you can require no work from her. It's not going to work that way. All the best to you Sam..


----------



## JJXmomma

Okay I'm new here and just read the original post and article and also saw some of Sam's situation. Umm, I'm sure I'm not like all women so I don't know if my advice would be good or not. I am naturally more submissive and like a strong dominant man but all the other women in my family are more dominant themselves and tend to go for more caring men. 

That being said, I thought the original article was interesting but wouldn't work for me. I don't think the husband should have to cater around every little irrational desire of his wife. In fact if he did I'd lose respect for him for not being confident enough to be himself. I don't think the wife should have to cater around the husband either of course. In my marriage we both accept each others' quirks and don't try to change each other. I pick my battles and try to let the little things go. My husband has a strange tendency to leave used paper towels everywhere. I used to comment about it and if I did he'd throw them away and say it's an irrational thing (he thinks he'll reuse them but he doesn't) and he has never stopped even though I mentioned it many times. Eventually I just stopped because it's not worth getting mad about. It takes two seconds for me to throw them away and I know that I am not a clean freak myself and have plenty of flaws of my own that my husband accepts. I think that if one spouse tries too hard to tiptoe around each little behavior of the other then that spouse may lose a sense of his or her identity. I don't think either spouse should try to "mother" or "father" the other unless they are acting really out of line.

As far as standing up for yourself, I have discovered that it actually does really turn me on when my husband stands up for himself. Sometimes I really push him to see how far I can go, I don't know why. I'm a grown intelligent woman and don't realize I'm even doing it until after the fact but I admit I've done it. If he really puts his foot down, even gets quite angry, I actually feel safer because it's like I know where the boundaries are. It's almost like a child pushing their parents. I don't know why I'm like that; it's more just an observation I've made about myself. Since my husband is so logical and reasonable and I'm ruled by my emotions (nothing to do with intelligence, I'm insanely good at math btw) I feel better knowing that he draws the line somewhere. 

So recently I had been pushing and pushing my bad mood onto him for days on end and he got pretty pissed at me and actually yelled at me and for a little time afterwards I fantasized about how great it would feel to hand him divorce papers but after about an hour I admitted to myself that I had been completely unreasonable and have also not been giving him enough affection and sex (or else he wouldn't have had such anger). So I jumped his bones.

Confusing? Maybe, but maybe that explains a little of the psychology behind that dynamic. I don't know if that works for all couples though. My husband has never been abusive to me so don't think I'm one who likes to punish herself. I just find it attractive if a man doesn't allow himself to be knocked around. 

My mom said she could never be married to a man like my husband though so of course not all women are the same. My mom is much more dominating than I am. In Sam's case, I feel sorry for him. I think withdrawing affection for three weeks at a time is cruel and abusive. I feel like he's already experiencing so much pain that it couldn't hurt him at this point to try a different way. Hasn't he tried already to do everything she wants? He's supposed to keep and keep and keep trying? She sounds like she's determined to be displeased with him no matter what.


----------



## SadSamIAm

The thing that really resonates with me is:

"More comfortable living in chaos or drama than in peace
Adult children of alcoholics become addicted to chaos and drama, which gives them their adrenaline fix and feelings of power and control."

We make love and spend three hours in bed. It is wonderful. We talk and laugh. For a couple of days things are great. I come home from work wanting to talk to her to share my day. Then after two or three days of happy home, something happens. She just does things to create drama. Complain about something frivolous. I try to hug her and she pushes me away. Sometimes she brings up things from months or years ago. I have no idea where it comes from.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@JJXmomma Amen Sister, great to meet you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> The thing that really resonates with me is:
> 
> "More comfortable living in chaos or drama than in peace
> Adult children of alcoholics become addicted to chaos and drama, which gives them their adrenaline fix and feelings of power and control."
> 
> We make love and spend three hours in bed. It is wonderful. We talk and laugh. For a couple of days things are great. I come home from work wanting to talk to her to share my day. Then after two or three days of happy home, something happens. She just does things to create drama. Complain about something frivolous. I try to hug her and she pushes me away. Sometimes she brings up things from months or years ago. I have no idea where it comes from.


Unresolved trauma

And chaos at home created an adrenaline addiction


----------



## SadSamIAm

JJXmomma said:


> Okay I'm new here and just read the original post and article and also saw some of Sam's situation. Umm, I'm sure I'm not like all women so I don't know if my advice would be good or not. I am naturally more submissive and like a strong dominant man but all the other women in my family are more dominant themselves and tend to go for more caring men.
> 
> That being said, I thought the original article was interesting but wouldn't work for me. I don't think the husband should have to cater around every little irrational desire of his wife. In fact if he did I'd lose respect for him for not being confident enough to be himself. I don't think the wife should have to cater around the husband either of course. In my marriage we both accept each others' quirks and don't try to change each other. I pick my battles and try to let the little things go. My husband has a strange tendency to leave used paper towels everywhere. I used to comment about it and if I did he'd throw them away and say it's an irrational thing (he thinks he'll reuse them but he doesn't) and he has never stopped even though I mentioned it many times. Eventually I just stopped because it's not worth getting mad about. It takes two seconds for me to throw them away and I know that I am not a clean freak myself and have plenty of flaws of my own that my husband accepts. I think that if one spouse tries too hard to tiptoe around each little behavior of the other then that spouse may lose a sense of his or her identity. I don't think either spouse should try to "mother" or "father" the other unless they are acting really out of line.
> 
> As far as standing up for yourself, I have discovered that it actually does really turn me on when my husband stands up for himself. Sometimes I really push him to see how far I can go, I don't know why. I'm a grown intelligent woman and don't realize I'm even doing it until after the fact but I admit I've done it. If he really puts his foot down, even gets quite angry, I actually feel safer because it's like I know where the boundaries are. It's almost like a child pushing their parents. I don't know why I'm like that; it's more just an observation I've made about myself. Since my husband is so logical and reasonable and I'm ruled by my emotions (nothing to do with intelligence, I'm insanely good at math btw) I feel better knowing that he draws the line somewhere.
> 
> So recently I had been pushing and pushing my bad mood onto him for days on end and he got pretty pissed at me and actually yelled at me and for a little time afterwards I fantasized about how great it would feel to hand him divorce papers but after about an hour I admitted to myself that I had been completely unreasonable and have also not been giving him enough affection and sex (or else he wouldn't have had such anger). So I jumped his bones.
> 
> Confusing? Maybe, but maybe that explains a little of the psychology behind that dynamic. I don't know if that works for all couples though. My husband has never been abusive to me so don't think I'm one who likes to punish herself. I just find it attractive if a man doesn't allow himself to be knocked around.
> 
> My mom said she could never be married to a man like my husband though so of course not all women are the same. My mom is much more dominating than I am. In Sam's case, I feel sorry for him. I think withdrawing affection for three weeks at a time is cruel and abusive. I feel like he's already experiencing so much pain that it couldn't hurt him at this point to try a different way. Hasn't he tried already to do everything she wants? He's supposed to keep and keep and keep trying? She sounds like she's determined to be displeased with him no matter what.


Thanks for this.

She is "More comfortable living in chaos or drama than in peace"


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ACOA's tend to be emotionally unavailable unless they learn to be present. 

They will distract themselves with ANYTHING which could explain all the shopping and doing for others too much.


----------



## lucy999

JJXmomma said:


> Okay I'm new here and just read the original post and article and also saw some of Sam's situation. Umm, I'm sure I'm not like all women so I don't know if my advice would be good or not. I am naturally more submissive and like a strong dominant man but all the other women in my family are more dominant themselves and tend to go for more caring men.
> 
> That being said, I thought the original article was interesting but wouldn't work for me. I don't think the husband should have to cater around every little irrational desire of his wife. In fact if he did I'd lose respect for him for not being confident enough to be himself. I don't think the wife should have to cater around the husband either of course. In my marriage we both accept each others' quirks and don't try to change each other. I pick my battles and try to let the little things go. My husband has a strange tendency to leave used paper towels everywhere. I used to comment about it and if I did he'd throw them away and say it's an irrational thing (he thinks he'll reuse them but he doesn't) and he has never stopped even though I mentioned it many times. Eventually I just stopped because it's not worth getting mad about. It takes two seconds for me to throw them away and I know that I am not a clean freak myself and have plenty of flaws of my own that my husband accepts. I think that if one spouse tries too hard to tiptoe around each little behavior of the other then that spouse may lose a sense of his or her identity. I don't think either spouse should try to "mother" or "father" the other unless they are acting really out of line.
> 
> As far as standing up for yourself, I have discovered that it actually does really turn me on when my husband stands up for himself. Sometimes I really push him to see how far I can go, I don't know why. I'm a grown intelligent woman and don't realize I'm even doing it until after the fact but I admit I've done it. If he really puts his foot down, even gets quite angry, I actually feel safer because it's like I know where the boundaries are. It's almost like a child pushing their parents. I don't know why I'm like that; it's more just an observation I've made about myself. Since my husband is so logical and reasonable and I'm ruled by my emotions (nothing to do with intelligence, I'm insanely good at math btw) I feel better knowing that he draws the line somewhere.
> 
> So recently I had been pushing and pushing my bad mood onto him for days on end and he got pretty pissed at me and actually yelled at me and for a little time afterwards I fantasized about how great it would feel to hand him divorce papers but after about an hour I admitted to myself that I had been completely unreasonable and have also not been giving him enough affection and sex (or else he wouldn't have had such anger). So I jumped his bones.
> 
> Confusing? Maybe, but maybe that explains a little of the psychology behind that dynamic. I don't know if that works for all couples though. My husband has never been abusive to me so don't think I'm one who likes to punish herself. I just find it attractive if a man doesn't allow himself to be knocked around.
> 
> My mom said she could never be married to a man like my husband though so of course not all women are the same. My mom is much more dominating than I am. In Sam's case, I feel sorry for him. I think withdrawing affection for three weeks at a time is cruel and abusive. I feel like he's already experiencing so much pain that it couldn't hurt him at this point to try a different way. Hasn't he tried already to do everything she wants? He's supposed to keep and keep and keep trying? She sounds like she's determined to be displeased with him no matter what.


Hey I do believe you've read my mind. Well said!:smile2:


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> There is nothing inconsistent about failing to tolerate tantrums and seeking understanding.


Where do you see tantrums here? Iirc, she just rejects him sexually.


----------



## jld

JJX, I don't think Sam's wife feels like she is picking on him. I think she genuinely feels hurt by some of his behavior. I think that is driving the sexlessness.

I just do not see how telling her to get in line is going to do anything but bring on more resentment.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> ACOA's tend to be emotionally unavailable unless they learn to be present.
> 
> They will distract themselves with ANYTHING which could explain all the shopping and doing for others too much.


It talks about being a workaholic

Weird for a SAHM to be a workaholic, but she is. And when the kids were young she had plenty to do. But it seems like ever since the kids have been grown, she has gotten worse. She bakes every night. She stays up until 1 and 2 in the morning. Cleaning things that are clean. Making work projects to keep busy. 


and isolating themselves.

All of her friends complain that she never calls them. She will never call her family and then when they complain to her she says, well they never call me. She seems fine being alone. 

A bunch of this helps to explain her.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Where do you see tantrums here? Iirc, she just rejects him sexually.


Do you even read these threads? Cookies and muffins? Pouted for DAYS?


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Do you even read these threads? Cookies and muffins? Pouted for DAYS?


Isn't he doing the same, but worse? As in moving out for days at a time?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> It talks about being a workaholic
> 
> Weird for a SAHM to be a workaholic, but she is. And when the kids were young she had plenty to do. But it seems like ever since the kids have been grown, she has gotten worse. She bakes every night. She stays up until 1 and 2 in the morning. Cleaning things that are clean. Making work projects to keep busy.
> 
> 
> and isolating themselves.
> 
> All of her friends complain that she never calls them. She will never call her family and then when they complain to her she says, well they never call me. She seems fine being alone.
> 
> A bunch of this helps to explain her.


The tendendencies worsen with age if this goes untreated and some ACOAs fall into addiction when it gets bad enough.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> JJX, I don't think Sam's wife feels like she is picking on him. I think she genuinely feels hurt by some of his behavior. I think that is driving the sexlessness.
> 
> I just do not see how telling her to get in line is going to do anything but bring on more resentment.


I have aways felt that the issues with intimacy had to do with control. She feels uncomfortable giving up control. Maybe TMI, but especially when it comes to receiving oral sex. I know she loves it, but times she rejects it because although it feels good it makes her uncomfortable to lose control. At least that is how I have felt and ready this below explains it somewhat. 

"Difficulties with intimacy

Adult children of alcoholics fear intimacy because it makes them feel that they lost control. They have difficulties expressing their needs and consequently have problems with their sexuality, and repeat relationship patterns."


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> We are making too much of the baking. At the time, the baking seemed like a big deal. She was rude about it, but it wasn't what caused the problem.
> 
> The problem was the next few days when we were spending a bunch of time together and she was rejecting me for 3 days in a row.


Why did she reject you for 3 days in a row? I thought you said it was precipitated by the baking.

If you tell her, "Next time do it yourself" you surely won't make anything better, unless she is just a control freak and she needs to be put in her place.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I have aways felt that the issues with intimacy had to do with control. She feels uncomfortable giving up control. Maybe TMI, but especially when it comes to receiving oral sex. I know she loves it, but times she rejects it because although it feels good it makes her uncomfortable to lose control. At least that is how I have felt and ready this below explains it somewhat.
> 
> "Difficulties with intimacy
> 
> Adult children of alcoholics fear intimacy because it makes them feel that they lost control. They have difficulties expressing their needs and consequently have problems with their sexuality, and repeat relationship patterns."


What do you think about sharing that with her?


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> The tendendencies worsen with age if this goes untreated and some ACOAs fall into addiction when it gets bad enough.


She drank quite a bit in college. 

She doesn't drink very much now at all. I think she doesn't because she is worried about falling into that.


----------



## jld

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Why did she reject you for 3 days in a row? I thought you said it was precipitated by the baking.
> 
> If you tell her, "Next time do it yourself" you surely won't make anything better, unless she is just a control freak and she needs to be put in her place.


I think this "put her in her place" idea is risky. I understand some women have said they find it a turn on.

But if she does not, I think he would just be digging himself in deeper.

"Next time do it yourself" sounds distancing to me.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Why did she reject you for 3 days in a row? I thought you said it was precipitated by the baking.
> 
> If you tell her, "Next time do it yourself" you surely won't make anything better, unless she is just a control freak and she needs to be put in her place.


She had been stressed from Christmas shopping and baking and getting ready for the trip. I helped her with the baking because of this. She was rude about my mistake because of all the stress leading up to it.

I think the rejection was a culmination of all those things. I guess including the baking, but I think it was more about all the other things.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hey and if you introduce this concept to her be prepared for denial first. Just hold steady... If you want to keep her, get as educated as much as possible on it, and know that your patience will be severely tested. An ACOA can give some pretty serious blow back if approached as if they are the entire problem. It could feel like that and totally overwhelm her emotions. If its approached that way she will push back hard and fast and probably in ways you've never seen before. She could do just fine, but could also just as easily swing the other way.

If she does accept this as a healing path, she will need to pace herself. If she doesn't accept it you will have decisions to make on what you are willing to live with. The Boundaries books will help you a lot. A lot of ACOA's have Complex PTSD. There are books on it on Amazon. Knowing how to recognize it and work through it helped me and my H.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> She drank quite a bit in college.
> 
> She doesn't drink very much now at all. I think she doesn't because she is worried about falling into that.


Good.

I'm the same way.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> I think this "put her in her place" idea is risky. I understand some women have said they find it a turn on.
> 
> But if she does not, I think he would just be digging himself in deeper.
> 
> "Next time do it yourself" sounds distancing to me.


I am thinking my reactions have been feeding into what she is after.

If she really does feel more comfortable during chaos and is creating chaos on purpose, then me reacting at all is only encouraging her to do it more. And if she really fears intimacy because of loss of control than creating a fight also helps her with that.

If I go off and do my own thing and ignore her it creates friction between us even though we are quiet. If I get mad and tell her to do it herself, then she has reason to get madder. Either way she gets the chaos she is looking for.

The article I read mentioned to use humor to deflect. I think others on this thread have mentioned it. Maybe now that I realize she is trying to create the chaos, then I won't take it so personally. 

If I would have said something like, "Well let me do this another couple of hundred times and I will get it right, I wouldn't have fed into the fight."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I am thinking my reactions have been feeding into what she is after.
> 
> If she really does feel more comfortable during chaos and is creating chaos on purpose, then me reacting at all is only encouraging her to do it more. And if she really fears intimacy because of loss of control than creating a fight also helps her with that.
> 
> If I go off and do my own thing and ignore her it creates friction between us even though we are quiet. If I get mad and tell her to do it herself, then she has reason to get madder. Either way she gets the chaos she is looking for.
> 
> The article I read mentioned to use humor to deflect. I think others on this thread have mentioned it. Maybe now that I realize she is trying to create the chaos, then I won't take it so personally.
> 
> If I would have said something like, "Well let me do this another couple of hundred times and I will get it right, I wouldn't have fed into the fight."


You will definitely see the patterns. Handling an ACOA can be tricky. You WILL need boundaries, but pair them with reassurances. Humor is good, the only thing being you may tire of it over time if core issues aren't addressed. But humor does help.


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> The thing that really resonates with me is:
> 
> "More comfortable living in chaos or drama than in peace
> Adult children of alcoholics become addicted to chaos and drama, which gives them their adrenaline fix and feelings of power and control."
> 
> We make love and spend three hours in bed. It is wonderful. We talk and laugh. For a couple of days things are great. I come home from work wanting to talk to her to share my day. Then after two or three days of happy home, something happens. *She just does things to create drama. Complain about something frivolous.* I try to hug her and she pushes me away. Sometimes she brings up things from months or years ago. I have no idea where it comes from.


I bolded the part you where you are saying she "creates" the drama. 

Hypothetically, lets say you miss the toilet for the umpteenth time, and she finds a puddle of urine on the floor and gets upset about it. According to your perception, she is creating the drama by being upset about it. Never mind that you know full well that she hates when you miss the toilet, and you did it anyway and didn't bother to clean up after yourself.

When she is upset about something, do you always minimize her reality by letting her know that what she is upset about is frivolous in your opinion?

It is obviously not frivolous to her. Being belittled in the subtle way you belittle her wears on a person, and they build up resentment.

When you start to "suck up" to her, you are not being empathetic, but you are trying to get on her good side, for your own comfort. She doesn't want a suck up, she wants a man who is always empathetic, while owning his stuff, who can apologize, change, stand for himself when he is not wrong, and whom she can trust to always have good motives.

Being conflict avoidant, sucking up and then complaining about/resenting it, or belittling her later is not good motives. Have you read NMMNG?


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> If I would have said something like, "Well let me do this another couple of hundred times and I will get it right, I wouldn't have fed into the fight."


Saying that with regards to the muffins/cookies would have been an admission of mistake, not been whiny, plus it would have shown a willingness to work with her.


----------



## jld

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I bolded the part you where you are saying she "creates" the drama.
> 
> Hypothetically, lets say you miss the toilet for the umpteenth time, and she finds a puddle of urine on the floor and gets upset about it. According to your perception, she is creating the drama by being upset about it. Never mind that you know full well that she hates when you miss the toilet, and you did it anyway and didn't bother to clean up after yourself.
> 
> When she is upset about something, do you always minimize her reality by letting her know that what she is upset about is frivolous in your opinion?
> 
> It is obviously not frivolous to her. Being belittled in the subtle way you belittle her wears on a person, and they build up resentment.
> 
> When you start to "suck up" to her, you are not being empathetic, but you are trying to get on her good side, for your own comfort. She doesn't want a suck up, she wants a man who is always empathetic, while owning his stuff, who can apologize, change, stand for himself when he is not wrong, and whom she can trust to always have good motives.
> 
> Being conflict avoidant, sucking up and then complaining about/resenting it, or belittling her later is not good motives. Have you read NMMNG?


Very good post, IMFAR.


----------



## NobodySpecial

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Why did she reject you for 3 days in a row? I thought you said it was precipitated by the baking.
> 
> If you tell her, "Next time do it yourself" you surely won't make anything better, unless she is just a control freak and she needs to be put in her place.


So I agree that the MANNER in which this is said is important. A cheerful, Ok honey, next time you can do it so you will know it is right! If you are cranky and puff Fine! (yes feeeeel the grump) YOU do it. Um no.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@SadSamIAm ... Proud of you. I can tell you are sinking your teeth into doing homework on the ACOA patterns. You are picking up on it fast and it won't take you long to establish a good framework to operate from.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> JJX, I don't think Sam's wife feels like she is picking on him. I think she genuinely feels hurt by some of his behavior. I think that is driving the sexlessness.
> 
> I just do not see how telling her to get in line is going to do anything but bring on more resentment.


Get in line, no. 

Be reasonable, yes. 

and where that's a question, it gets discussed, and challenged if need be. 

Because she clearly has unreasonable expectations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Hey and if you introduce this concept to her be prepared for denial first. Just hold steady... If you want to keep her, get as educated as much as possible on it, and know that your patience will be severely tested. An ACOA can give some pretty serious blow back if approached as if they are the entire problem. It could feel like that and totally overwhelm her emotions. If its approached that way she will push back hard and fast and probably in ways you've never seen before. She could do just fine, but could also just as easily swing the other way.
> 
> If she does accept this as a healing path, she will need to pace herself. If she doesn't accept it you will have decisions to make on what you are willing to live with. The Boundaries books will help you a lot. A lot of ACOA's have Complex PTSD. There are books on it on Amazon. Knowing how to recognize it and work through it helped me and my H.


That is very scary. At one point I mentioned that maybe she had BPD. The stuff I read warned that most everyone denies it. That they will probably turn it around and say you have it. That is exactly what she did.

This is another thing that she will bring up and is resentful about. That I tried to tell her she is crazy.


----------



## Marduk

SadSamIAm said:


> That is very scary. At one point I mentioned that maybe she had BPD. The stuff I read warned that most everyone denies it. That they will probably turn it around and say you have it. That is exactly what she did.
> 
> This is another thing that she will bring up and is resentful about. That I tried to tell her she is crazy.


Never, ever try to diagnose or reverse engineer your wife.

What does she respond to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm, what is your FOO like?


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I bolded the part you where you are saying she "creates" the drama.
> 
> Hypothetically, lets say you miss the toilet for the umpteenth time, and she finds a puddle of urine on the floor and gets upset about it. According to your perception, she is creating the drama by being upset about it. Never mind that you know full well that she hates when you miss the toilet, and you did it anyway and didn't bother to clean up after yourself.
> 
> When she is upset about something, do you always minimize her reality by letting her know that what she is upset about is frivolous in your opinion?
> 
> It is obviously not frivolous to her. Being belittled in the subtle way you belittle her wears on a person, and they build up resentment.
> 
> When you start to "suck up" to her, you are not being empathetic, but you are trying to get on her good side, for your own comfort. She doesn't want a suck up, she wants a man who is always empathetic, while owning his stuff, who can apologize, change, stand for himself when he is not wrong, and whom she can trust to always have good motives.
> 
> Being conflict avoidant, sucking up and then complaining about/resenting it, or belittling her later is not good motives. Have you read NMMNG?


Yes I have read it.

I will need to be careful. I have to recognize when she is upset at something real and when she is creating chaos out of something that is not very significant. 

I will have to take ownership if she has a valid complaint. I thought I was doing that. 

I have always been confused how a few dishes in the sink is fine one day. Then the next day it is like the world has ended because a glass is in there. 

Maybe I need to think, "Is this something that always upsets her or is it something she is usually fine with?" If it is something she is usually fine with, then not take it so personally and think maybe she is trying to cause chaos.


----------



## farsidejunky

SadSamIAm said:


> I am thinking my reactions have been feeding into what she is after.
> 
> If she really does feel more comfortable during chaos and is creating chaos on purpose, then me reacting at all is only encouraging her to do it more. And if she really fears intimacy because of loss of control than creating a fight also helps her with that.
> 
> If I go off and do my own thing and ignore her it creates friction between us even though we are quiet. If I get mad and tell her to do it herself, then she has reason to get madder. Either way she gets the chaos she is looking for.
> 
> The article I read mentioned to use humor to deflect. I think others on this thread have mentioned it. Maybe now that I realize she is trying to create the chaos, then I won't take it so personally.
> 
> If I would have said something like, "Well let me do this another couple of hundred times and I will get it right, I wouldn't have fed into the fight."


Sam: 

You are still focusing on her.

Focus on you first. You can't make an accurate assessment until you are emotionally healthy. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

If you think of her as "trying to cause chaos," you might feel defensive and build resentment. Do you think it would help to frame it differently?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> That is very scary. At one point I mentioned that maybe she had BPD. The stuff I read warned that most everyone denies it. That they will probably turn it around and say you have it. That is exactly what she did.
> 
> This is another thing that she will bring up and is resentful about. That I tried to tell her she is crazy.


Good, then you are already aware of that dynamic. ONLY approach this for now as education for yourself to help you understand her better and to lay down that which doesn't belong to you to help you gain longevity with her if that is what you choose to do. If you are already aware of that dynamic then you know not to do it that way. I would be more inclined to do joint counseling and through that process let the counselor introduce it to her so that it is not emotionally charged. That allows you to be the partner to help her through it because ultimately its HER path to pick up. She might choose to never pick it up. For her own happiness I hope she does because wanting to control all the time is miserable. Consider your own path.. sometimes two ACOA's find each other


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> If you think of her as "trying to cause chaos," you might feel defensive and build resentment. Do you think it would help to frame it differently?


This is a great question, yet I think he already has it framed in a detached way, not in a blaming way, so I think he will be ok, but if he finds himself struggling with resentment, reframing it may serve the greater purpose of protecting the relationship.


----------



## SadSamIAm

NobodySpecial said:


> So I agree that the MANNER in which this is said is important. A cheerful, Ok honey, next time you can do it so you will know it is right! If you are cranky and puff Fine! (yes feeeeel the grump) YOU do it. Um no.


That was my thought. The tone I say it will mean a bunch. 

If I think she isn't feeling comfortable in her own skin and is trying to create chaos, then I won't take it personally and react with anger.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> @SadSamIAm ... Proud of you. I can tell you are sinking your teeth into doing homework on the ACOA patterns. You are picking up on it fast and it won't take you long to establish a good framework to operate from.


I haven't been on here for years, reading all kinds of relationship books, because I don't care. I really want to make my marriage better. My wife happier. My life better.

I knew her father was an alcoholic. I knew it affects people around them. I can't believe I haven't really read about it before.


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> I have always been confused how a few dishes in the sink is fine one day. Then the *next day it is like the world has ended* because a glass is in there.
> 
> Maybe I need to think, "Is this something that always upsets her or is it something she is usually fine with?" If it is something she is usually fine with, then not take it so personally and think maybe she is trying to cause chaos.


More belittling here. If my husband said that to me, or if I knew he was thinking that I would be even more upset. Does she know you perceive her that way?

Your belittling aside, the blow ups aren't probably about the glass in the sink. They stem from 1. Built up frustration over (fill in the blank) 2. Could be menopause. 3. Maybe she is just a frivolous crazy woman who likes to create chaos.

And regarding the ACOA, I sense belittling there too, on your part. In an earlier post you said that she would be upset that you called her crazy. Do you believe that ACOAs are crazy? They are not crazy, they have just learned unhealthy coping and communication methods.

What coping methods did you learn in your FOO which you are using in your marriage?

I don't see a lot of self introspection on your part, besides playing the victim, blaming and belittling your wife.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> That was my thought. The tone I say it will mean a bunch.
> 
> If I think she isn't feeling comfortable in her own skin and is trying to create chaos, then I won't take it personally and react with anger.


Exactly!

You will know when the time comes that you can ask her to assess her behavior, but still from that centered place.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I haven't been on here for years, reading all kinds of relationship books, because I don't care. I really want to make my marriage better. My wife happier. My life better.
> 
> I knew her father was an alcoholic. I knew it affects people around them. I can't believe I haven't really read about it before.


Excellent.... you may find this as a gem in your tool kit.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> SadSamIAm, what is your FOO like?


Do you mean Family Of Origin?


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> That was my thought. The tone I say it will mean a bunch.
> 
> If I think she isn't feeling comfortable in her own skin and is trying to create chaos, then *I won't take it personally and react with anger*.


Perfect.


----------



## Adelais

Yes.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> More belittling here. If my husband said that to me, or if I knew he was thinking that I would be even more upset. Does she know you perceive her that way?
> 
> Your belittling aside, the blow ups aren't probably about the glass in the sink. They stem from 1. Built up frustration over (fill in the blank) 2. Could be menopause. 3. Maybe she is just a frivolous crazy woman who likes to create chaos.
> 
> And regarding the ACOA, I sense belittling there too, on your part. In an earlier post you said that she would be upset that you called her crazy. Do you believe that ACOAs are crazy? They are not crazy, they have just learned unhealthy coping and communication methods.
> 
> What coping methods did you learn in your FOO which you are using in your marriage?
> 
> I don't see a lot of self introspection on your part, besides playing the victim, blaming and belittling your wife.


No, this is him acknowledging and the recognition of his gut telling him all this time there was something wrong. Her wide range of responses he knew deep inside wasn't fully normal. There was another answer here he didn't have. It has nothing to do with belittling and everything to do with becoming informed. YOUR posts are belittling. There are a LOT of extra chemical reactions that happens inside of persons who are ACOA, so it has nothing to do with normal buildup and resentment. It's WAYYYYYYYYYY beyond that and more complex. Its why we are telling him he can't fix her. He can only use this information to understand what's happening and support her from that angle. He's not learning it for a weapon. And I can tell he will get around to his own deeper introspection. He's had this info less than a few hours and it takes a lot to fully digest it. Give the guy a break.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> More belittling here. If my husband said that to me, or if I knew he was thinking that I would be even more upset. Does she know you perceive her that way?
> 
> Your belittling aside, the blow ups aren't probably about the glass in the sink. They stem from 1. Built up frustration over (fill in the blank) 2. Could be menopause. 3. Maybe she is just a frivolous crazy woman who likes to create chaos.


Did you just call her crazy?



> And regarding the ACOA, I sense belittling there too, on your part. In an earlier post you said that she would be upset that you called her crazy. Do you believe that ACOAs are crazy? They are not crazy, they have just learned unhealthy coping and communication methods.


I didn't call her crazy. I suggested she maybe had BPD. She replied with "You think I am crazy."

The things I read about ACOA seem to apply to my situation. I am not qualified to diagnose anyone. I don't consider it crazy. I like the fact that it gives me something additional to think about that could be a factor in our situation.




> What coping methods did you learn in your FOO which you are using in your marriage?
> 
> I don't see a lot of self introspection on your part, besides playing the victim, blaming and belittling your wife.


Sorry you feel that way.


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Yes.


I grew up in a lower to middle class family. My parents both worked retail for other people. No alcohol. No abuse.

I never really saw my parents fight about anything other than politics. I have a brother and three sisters. They are married, have children and some grandchildren. My one sister got divorced. Her husband was an alcoholic. She stayed until her boys were in High School. She stayed too long. I believe my other siblings are happily married (but they think I am too).

About the only traumatic thing that happened to me was I failed grade 8. Every teacher I had, had my older brother before me and he was brilliant. The teachers pretty much made me feel stupid compared to him. So I proved them right. I was the class clown. Immature for my age both physically and mentally. 

Failing grade 8 was a wake up call for me. The next year I was on the honor roll and won the Most Improved Student for the school. Was on the honor roll every year afterwards and graduated college with honors.

Is that what you are looking for?


----------



## SadSamIAm

And by the way. I am still going to work on diet and exercise. And more quality time together. I know these things are very important to her and good for me.


----------



## lifeistooshort

SadSamIAm said:


> Did you just call her crazy?
> 
> 
> 
> *I didn't call her crazy. I suggested she maybe had BPD*. She replied with "You think I am crazy."
> 
> The things I read about ACOA seem to apply to my situation. I am not qualified to diagnose anyone. I don't consider it crazy. I like the fact that it gives me something additional to think about that could be a factor in our situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry you feel that way.


I'm not surprised that didn't go over well. Are you a shrink? Do you have any basis to make such an accusation? How would you receive it if she suggested you have a mental disorder because you don't respond to thinks like she thinks you should?

And yes, you did basically call her crazy. Not a very nice way to dismiss someone's concerns.


----------



## SadSamIAm

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm not surprised that didn't go over well. Are you a shrink? Do you have any basis to make such an accusation? How would you receive it if she suggested you have a mental disorder because you don't respond to thinks like she thinks you should?
> 
> And yes, you did basically call her crazy. Not a very nice way to dismiss someone's concerns.


What should I reply to you if I want you to see my NUTS?


----------



## SadSamIAm

I have to get home and make supper for my wife who will be returning in a couple of hours.

Thanks Everyone


----------



## Blossom Leigh

:slap:



lifeistooshort said:


> I'm not surprised that didn't go over well. Are you a shrink? Do you have any basis to make such an accusation? How would you receive it if she suggested you have a mental disorder because you don't respond to thinks like she thinks you should?
> 
> And yes, you did basically call her crazy. Not a very nice way to dismiss someone's concerns.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I have to get home and make supper for my wife who will be returning in a couple of hours.
> 
> Thanks Everyone


Take care Sam


----------



## lifeistooshort

Blossom Leigh said:


> :slap:


You're right, everyone is qualified to make a mental diagnosis. I have no idea whh shrinks even go to school. .... everyone can come here and get diagnosed. 

Whatever, keep bashing his wife. .... that'll help him. 

Sam, lots of luck with the things you control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> SadSamIAm, what is your FOO like?


Now I am wondering if you were asking about my race?

I am Canadian. (Split 50/50. French and Icelandic)


----------



## SadSamIAm

Blossom Leigh said:


> Take care Sam


Wife and daughters stopped for supper. So I am off the hook for that. 

Thanks.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

lifeistooshort said:


> You're right, everyone is qualified to make a mental diagnosis. I have no idea whh shrinks even go to school. .... everyone can come here and get diagnosed.
> 
> Whatever, keep bashing his wife. .... that'll help him.
> 
> Sam, lots of luck with the things you control.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no crime in sharing resources that help.

From his description of her past she IS an adult child of an alcoholic. That is not a diagnosis. It is a fact. Big difference. 

I'm not bashing HER, but her choice of behavior. Big difference. 

And yes.... she has a LOT of work ahead of her if she ever wakes up to that fact. If not, she leaves her marriage at risk. Sam may make the decision to stand by her til the end, which is totally his personal choice. I think he has already stepped up to a large degree in a lot of different ways trying to figure this thing out and has remained committed to figuring it out and being a better man, husband, father. NO ONE has diagnosed her. Not even Sam. He is exploring resources. No more, no less. He has that right.

At least HE is putting in the work to get it figured out.... does she?


----------



## Marduk

Listen man. Feel free to read psychological stuff on line and mull about stuff. But leave it at that.

You're not qualified to diagnose her. You're not objective enough to diagnose her. You've got no right to label her. And even if you're right, you're white knighting her because her problems are her problems, not your problems. Of which you have plenty.

So leave all that **** alone.


----------



## farsidejunky

Clean up your side of the street first, Sam.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

When you do not feel loved, it is hard to love.

Sam, can you think of some ways to love yourself? Are there people in your life you feel loved by?


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

SadSamIAm said:


> Yes, I would say quality time is her love language. At least when we are spending quality time together, it is when we get along the best and she seems happiest.


So her love language is quality time. She wants to spend time with you, and she wants you to spend time with her. If you don't spend time with her, she feels unloved, like you are prioritizing other things over her. And if you don't spend time with her, she can't show you she loves you, because again, quality time is how she expresses love. She doesn't understand that she should just be talking you up more, or touching you more.



SadSamIAm said:


> She expected me to drive 7 hours to the mountains Friday after work, ski Saturday and Sunday and then drive back Sunday Night, so I could be at work on Monday. Actually I think she expected me to miss work Monday. I try hard to be here for my clients during their busy time (January and February). I do take a fair amount of time off during the rest of the year.





SadSamIAm said:


> I have done things like this for her in the past. For six months, early in our relationship, I moved away for a temporary job. Every weekend I drove 5 hours every Friday Night to see her and every Sunday night back to work. Only missed one weekend.


Put these two things together, which is how they are connected in her mind. At one point in your relationship, you loved her enough to drive 10 hours a weekend to see her. EVERY weekend. Now, you won't even drive 14 hours ONE weekend? She feels you don't love her like you used to. Simple.



SadSamIAm said:


> Your comment reminded me of something that happened a month ago. At Christmas, just before heading to the mountains, my wife was stressed. She had been out shopping for gifts for the kids. We had decided to give them money, but she was buying 'stocking stuffers' which she always goes overboard. She was planning and cooking meals while away and was running out of time. I asked her what I could do to help. She asked me to make some Muffins and some cookies. She had some last minute running around to do.
> 
> She put out the recipes for me. The recipe book for the muffins was turned to a page and there was two recipes showing. One was for Chocolate Chip Banana Muffins the other was for Banana Muffins. She always makes muffins with chocolate chips in them. So I made the Chocolate Chip Banana Muffins.
> 
> She also left a recipe out for Chocolate Swirl Chocolate Cookies. The last step was to drizzle in some chocolate and give it a stir. I thought it would be a good idea to just turn on the mixer instead of stirring. Ended up making the cookies all brown instead of a swirl.
> 
> So when she gets home she sees the Muffins and says they look different. Asked me if I used 'butter or margarine'. I said the recipe didn't call for either. Turns out she always used the Banana Muffin recipe and added chocolate chips to it.
> 
> Then she looks at the cookies and says "What happened to these? They are supposed to be white!" So explain how I mixed in the chocolate too much.
> 
> Her comment was "I guess I should have just done it myself".
> 
> Her muffins are much better than the ones I made, but it pissed her off that everyone loved the cookies.
> 
> The next day we went to the mountains. We skiied together each day and each morning and night she pushed me away when I tried to get close to her. We have been fighting every since.


This example is actually telling. She was disappointed that you hadn't taken an interest in her cooking enough to already know which recipe she habitually uses. Or to ask her instead of guessing. Your inability to read her mind made her feel that you haven't paid enough attention to her. It's an undercurrent of not paying enough attention to her going on already, for this to become an additional issue. If she felt comfortable and truly loved before this incident, it would have been something to be laughed off. Because she didn't laugh it off, it's a little tip of an iceberg that's much greater. Ie, not enough quality time spent with her.

The correct response would have been "haha, yeah, they turned out weird, didn't they! Let's make another batch together to you can show me all your secret tricks." You turn your honest mistake and her disappointment into that quality time she craves.

Also, she probably feels judged by the cooking, since these are traditionally done by her? So presenting the wrong muffins and funny-looking cookies to guests makes her feel like she's disappointing people who were expecting her usual quality. I'm guessing she's also a perfectionist? Hard to live with. She felt like she relied on you to have her back, and help her get caught up on the baking, and you let her down. She probably has been feeling like she can't rely on you for some time now, for this to trigger it.

Again, it's not about the glass. It's about what big thing the little things represent. (Look! I got it back on topic!)



SadSamIAm said:


> I have never taken the attention away. I tell her all the time how beautiful she is. I tell her all the time how great she looks in the LuLu Lemon pants.
> 
> I make sure I tell her all the time because I know she is insecure.
> 
> Her friends tell her all the time. They have all aged much more than she has.


If she places her own value primarily in her appearance, all your compliments are doing is feeding that vicious circle. Tell her you admire her generosity, her kindness, her thoughtfulness and dedication. Anything that's an intrinsic good quality on the inside, not something that depreciates naturally with age. The more she thinks you only value her for her appearance, the more obsessed she'll become with it.

I don't know much about the ACOA stuff. Thankfully, I think. But more knowledge is always good.


----------



## jld

What a wonderful post, HC. Such insightful analysis.


----------



## Adelais

SadSamIAm said:


> That is very scary. At one point I mentioned that maybe she had BPD. The stuff I read warned that most everyone denies it. That they will probably turn it around and say you have it. That is exactly what she did.
> 
> This is another thing that she will bring up and is resentful about. That I tried to tell her *she is crazy*.


This is where you are insinuating she is crazy if she really is an ACOH. Since she knows nothing about ACOH (yet) she hasn't had the opportunity of accusing you of saying she is crazy. You said the word "crazy" when imagining what her response is. Do you think people with ACOH are crazy?

Sorry Sam, I am not trying to be condescending to you, as Blossom said. I just see some things in your post and am trying to help you see that you are condescending to her, while at the same time "sucking up" to her to make peace. I could be way off base, and if I am I'm sorry I've taken up space on your thread, or caused distraction from the real issues.

Your focus is on her, and when people ask about you about yourself you become defensive.

Regarding your question about race: I don't know or care what race you are since I don't believe in races anyway. I believe we are all descended from Noah, and that there are different looking people groups. I do believe there are some very different cultural differences between people groups.

FOO issues can be difficult to identify if one doesn't want to go there. Where did you learn to rug sweep and "suck up?" Where did you learn to accept little to no affection unless you initiate it yourself?


----------



## Adelais

Yes, @Hopeful Cynic, you said some of what I was trying to say, but you said it much nicer.


----------



## Evinrude58

Hopeful Cynic said:


> So her love language is quality time. She wants to spend time with you, and she wants you to spend time with her. If you don't spend time with her, she feels unloved, like you are prioritizing other things over her. And if you don't spend time with her, she can't show you she loves you, because again, quality time is how she expresses love. She doesn't understand that she should just be talking you up more, or touching you more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Put these two things together, which is how they are connected in her mind. At one point in your relationship, you loved her enough to drive 10 hours a weekend to see her. EVERY weekend. Now, you won't even drive 14 hours ONE weekend? She feels you don't love her like you used to. Simple.
> 
> 
> 
> This example is actually telling. She was disappointed that you hadn't taken an interest in her cooking enough to already know which recipe she habitually uses. Or to ask her instead of guessing. Your inability to read her mind made her feel that you haven't paid enough attention to her. It's an undercurrent of not paying enough attention to her going on already, for this to become an additional issue. If she felt comfortable and truly loved before this incident, it would have been something to be laughed off. Because she didn't laugh it off, it's a little tip of an iceberg that's much greater. Ie, not enough quality time spent with her.
> 
> The correct response would have been "haha, yeah, they turned out weird, didn't they! Let's make another batch together to you can show me all your secret tricks." You turn your honest mistake and her disappointment into that quality time she craves.
> 
> Also, she probably feels judged by the cooking, since these are traditionally done by her? So presenting the wrong muffins and funny-looking cookies to guests makes her feel like she's disappointing people who were expecting her usual quality. I'm guessing she's also a perfectionist? Hard to live with. She felt like she relied on you to have her back, and help her get caught up on the baking, and you let her down. She probably has been feeling like she can't rely on you for some time now, for this to trigger it.
> 
> Again, it's not about the glass. It's about what big thing the little things represent. (Look! I got it back on topic!)
> 
> 
> 
> If she places her own value primarily in her appearance, all your compliments are doing is feeding that vicious circle. Tell her you admire her generosity, her kindness, her thoughtfulness and dedication. Anything that's an intrinsic good quality on the inside, not something that depreciates naturally with age. The more she thinks you only value her for her appearance, the more obsessed she'll become with it.
> 
> I don't know much about the ACOA stuff. Thankfully, I think. But more knowledge is always good.


She is pissed because the man took the time to make cookies and muffins and didn't do them like she wanted, when she gave zero instructions? He should have read her mind? He should have asked? Heck, if he'd have asked, she would have thought he wasn't manning up and taking care of it without asking her to "mother" him!
I am astonished that this is how a woman thinks.... I'm starting to be glad I'm divorced.

He's giving the wrong kind of compliments???

He's not watching her cook enough to show her he cares?

If this is really how she thinks, he needs to divorce this horrible person and find himself a person that appreciates her man taking the time to make muffins and cookies, one that tells her she's beautiful, and one that doesnt need him to actually read her mind.

She feels she can't rely on him? This guy takes care of business better than 99% of men. He's as reliable as it gets!
HC, this is asking too much of any man. No mere mortal could make her happy if you are correct in her thoughts.

He can't rely on her for a dang hug at night...... Oh man, she is a real stinker, I think.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Evinrude58 said:


> She is pissed because the man took the time to make cookies and muffins and didn't do them like she wanted, when she gave zero instructions? He should have read her mind? He should have asked? Heck, if he'd have asked, she would have thought he wasn't manning up and taking care of it without asking her to "mother" him!
> I am astonished that this is how a woman thinks.... I'm starting to be glad I'm divorced.
> 
> He's giving the wrong kind of compliments???
> 
> He's not watching her cook enough to show her he cares?
> 
> If this is really how she thinks, he needs to divorce this horrible person and find himself a person that appreciates her man taking the time to make muffins and cookies, one that tells her she's beautiful, and one that doesnt need him to actually read her mind.
> 
> She feels she can't rely on him? This guy takes care of business better than 99% of men. He's as reliable as it gets!
> HC, this is asking too much of any man. No mere mortal could make her happy if you are correct in her thoughts.
> 
> He can't rely on her for a dang hug at night...... Oh man, she is a real stinker, I think.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The cooking wasn't the issue. Go back and read HC's post, #1549. It was really good.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SadSamIAm said:


> I am thinking my reactions have been feeding into what she is after.
> 
> If she really does feel more comfortable during chaos and is creating chaos on purpose, then me reacting at all is only encouraging her to do it more. And if she really fears intimacy because of loss of control than creating a fight also helps her with that.
> 
> If I go off and do my own thing and ignore her it creates friction between us even though we are quiet. If I get mad and tell her to do it herself, then she has reason to get madder. Either way she gets the chaos she is looking for.
> 
> The article I read mentioned to use humor to deflect. I think others on this thread have mentioned it. Maybe now that I realize she is trying to create the chaos, then I won't take it so personally.
> 
> If I would have said something like, "Well let me do this another couple of hundred times and I will get it right, I wouldn't have fed into the fight."





IMFarAboveRubies said:


> This is where you are insinuating she is crazy if she really is an ACOH. Since she knows nothing about ACOH (yet) she hasn't had the opportunity of accusing you of saying she is crazy. You said the word "crazy" when imagining what her response is. Do you think people with ACOH are crazy?
> 
> Sorry Sam, I am not trying to be condescending to you, as Blossom said. I just see some things in your post and am trying to help you see that you are condescending to her, while at the same time "sucking up" to her to make peace. I could be way off base, and if I am I'm sorry I've taken up space on your thread, or caused distraction from the real issues.
> 
> Your focus is on her, and when people ask about you about yourself you become defensive.
> 
> Regarding your question about race: I don't know or care what race you are since I don't believe in races anyway. I believe we are all descended from Noah, and that there are different looking people groups. I do believe there are some very different cultural differences between people groups.
> 
> FOO issues can be difficult to identify if one doesn't want to go there. Where did you learn to rug sweep and "suck up?" Where did you learn to accept little to no affection unless you initiate it yourself?


You are misreading what he wrote. He said HIS WIFE accused him of calling her crazy. He never called her crazy. He went to her and said she MIGHT have BPD. That is not calling someone crazy. That is him sharing with her after MUCH thought that as a couple they may be dealing with more than just normal man woman husband wife issues and was asking her to consider the possibility. Her OR yall blowing that out of proportion and accusing him of malintent is not on him, but on her. And you guys are taking her false assumption and running with it. You cannot tell me a man who has spent this much careful consideration of his marriage AND long term effort, who has tried MUCH of the standard TAM advice and even some thats not standard and still coming up short and no telling how much independent study on his own doesn't have the right to consider that his wife has an issue that falls just outside the "norm.". That DOES NOT mean he is dismissing her. It means he can now gain some peace because he will better know how to respond in a way to protect their marriage, not destroy it. 

If no one else hears the careful thought and effort you've put into this Sam, I do. Keep on keeping on Brother.


----------



## VirgenTecate

I am going to use an example from my own life of one of the recent conversations I've had with my fiance.

This is a very emotional one from me. I also hope that we don't take this as an invitation to debate what men should do and what women should do. Please read it as two individual's trying to make "till death do us part" happen

He stares at other women and it hurts me. He says "It doesn't mean I love you its just natural" but all I feel is belittling and contempt of my emotions. In his mind Big Picture: I come home every night to you and I am faithful. Small picture: Looking at other women should not be a big deal

In my mind Big Picture: You belittle my reaction to you seeing other women and do not try to understand why I feel that way but have contempt for my feelings as if they are not important. 

I do understand that he is faithful and loves me. But it doesn't make it any less of a huge love buster for me. To the point where I do not want him to touch me. I have been told on this forum that I must change my feelings about it because it is the small picture. But for me it is not. Then I wonder why my reaction is any less natural than his and if I must change my hurt about it than why could he not change his behavior. 

The truth is this. I know attractive women will come near him and I know he will look. To see him UNDERSTAND how it hurts me _even if he doesn't have the same emotions and importance as me about it_ turns this from a love buster to a love builder. Glancing instead of staring or turning his attention to me instead of staring gives me the message that I am safe and loved. He may not have the same reaction as me in that situation but he is showing he understands my emotions.

The truth is this. I know he comes home and is faithful to me every night. It is important to him for me to understand and appreciate the work he does for the both of us. I put in the effort to do so above and beyond during the time he put in the effort to understand my reaction.

Its not a one-way street. And yes, a spouse could use this tool one way to control and abuse one partner. It should be a warning sign if it is going one way. But if it is a two way street, this tool is so so so healthy and so so so important because two people will never ever have the same worldview. How do we get each other to understand that worldview and live together?


----------



## jld

Virgen, in your case, you both sound willing to accommodate the other. That is the easiest way.

In Sam's case, that might work. He could present things to his spouse as you have and maybe she would agree to work with him. 

If not, he can still work from his side to try to understand her and change his own behavior. Often changing our own behavior changes the reaction we get from our spouse.

Sam, I would suggest not withdrawing anymore. That might be the biggest love buster you have mentioned so far. Leaving your wife for days at a time surely shakes her trust in you to the core.

Imagine you were working for a company, and your boss were behaving that way. He would get mad at you and just not show up for work for days at a time. Then he would come back, and kind of try to work with you. But you could still feel the resentment from him. How much trust would you feel in him? Would you have the courage to open up to him? Or would you be guarded, trying to defend and protect yourself?


----------



## Wolf1974

VirgenTecate said:


> I am going to use an example from my own life of one of the recent conversations I've had with my fiance.
> 
> This is a very emotional one from me. I also hope that we don't take this as an invitation to debate what men should do and what women should do. Please read it as two individual's trying to make "till death do us part" happen
> 
> He stares at other women and it hurts me. He says "It doesn't mean I love you its just natural" but all I feel is belittling and contempt of my emotions. In his mind Big Picture: I come home every night to you and I am faithful. Small picture: Looking at other women should not be a big deal
> 
> In my mind Big Picture: You belittle my reaction to you seeing other women and do not try to understand why I feel that way but have contempt for my feelings as if they are not important.
> 
> I do understand that he is faithful and loves me. But it doesn't make it any less of a huge love buster for me. To the point where I do not want him to touch me. I have been told on this forum that I must change my feelings about it because it is the small picture. But for me it is not. Then I wonder why my reaction is any less natural than his and if I must change my hurt about it than why could he not change his behavior.
> 
> The truth is this. I know attractive women will come near him and I know he will look. To see him UNDERSTAND how it hurts me _even if he doesn't have the same emotions and importance as me about it_ turns this from a love buster to a love builder. Glancing instead of staring or turning his attention to me instead of staring gives me the message that I am safe and loved. He may not have the same reaction as me in that situation but he is showing he understands my emotions.
> 
> The truth is this. I know he comes home and is faithful to me every night. It is important to him for me to understand and appreciate the work he does for the both of us. I put in the effort to do so above and beyond during the time he put in the effort to understand my reaction.
> 
> Its not a one-way street. And yes, a spouse could use this tool one way to control and abuse one partner. It should be a warning sign if it is going one way. But if it is a two way street, this tool is so so so healthy and so so so important because two people will never ever have the same worldview. How do we get each other to understand that worldview and live together?


From my world view again I will say comptabaility. In your example it's true that he will notice attractive women and will look. To him this is a small thing to do and also a small thing to be considerate of your feelings and not stare. To you this a big thing so I think a compromise can be reached where the two of you are on the same page. Mostly because you are wise to value and respect him and he does the same with you. You communicate and make each other the priority and hope you always do. It's easy to make compromises on the small things but when they are big issues not so much.

Where a compatibility issue would arise is if he doesn't think it's a big deal, but you do, and neither of you are willing to look at it, talk about it, or work on it. 

Throughout this thread you have seen various opinions on how relationships run. I would never be with a woman who thought her needs and wants and feeling should come before mine in all things. I lived that, never again. You learn and grow and discover what you can and can't live with. I think the older we get the better off we are at picking people who compliment us vs go to war with us


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> You are misreading what he wrote. He said HIS WIFE accused him of calling her crazy. He never called her crazy. He went to her and said she MIGHT have BPD. That is not calling someone crazy. That is him sharing with her after MUCH thought that as a couple they may be dealing with more than just normal man woman husband wife issues and was asking her to consider the possibility. Her OR yall blowing that out of proportion and accusing him of malintent is not on him, but on her. And you guys are taking her false assumption and running with it. You cannot tell me a man who has spent this much careful consideration of his marriage AND long term effort, who has tried MUCH of the standard TAM advice and even some thats not standard and still coming up short and no telling how much independent study on his own doesn't have the right to consider that his wife has an issue that falls just outside the "norm.". That DOES NOT mean he is dismissing her. It means he can now gain some peace because he will better know how to respond in a way to protect their marriage, not destroy it.
> 
> If no one else hears the careful thought and effort you've put into this Sam, I do. Keep on keeping on Brother.


Blossom, you don't want Sam to feel discouraged, correct? You don't want him to feel unappreciated for the efforts he has made?

I think HC, in particular, just tried to shine a light on what Sam did, and might do differently, to affect the trust his wife has in him. Sam seems to be searching, and may want to consider carefully what she said, along with the helpful info you directed him to regarding ACOA. 

It is great that Sam is willing to put so much time into examining his relationship. I think some people are looking at it from a perspective of what his wife may be doing that is unhelpful, and others are focusing on what he may be doing that is unhelpful. I trust that Sam will comb through all the input and decide what could be of use to him.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Blossom, you don't want Sam to feel discouraged, correct? You don't want him to feel unappreciated for the efforts he has made?
> 
> I think HC, in particular, just tried to shine a light on what Sam did, and might do differently, to affect the trust his wife has in him. Sam seems to be searching, and may want to consider carefully what she said, along with the helpful info you directed him to regarding ACOA.
> 
> It is great that Sam is willing to put so much time into examining his relationship. I think some people are looking at it from a perspective of what his wife may be doing that is unhelpful, and others are focusing on what he may be doing that is unhelpful. I trust that Sam will comb through all the input and decide what could be of use to him.


I would say it is correct that I feel it is unfair to discount his effort and hammering on him OR assuming he doesn't "get it" at this point isn't necessary. He has been trying to piece this thing together for years.

I agree, I think he will dig through posts here and new ACOA info, make accurate choices and ultimately find peace that he was not malicious with his wife, doing the best he knew at the time, just uneducated about this ACOA dynamic, that up until now left him feeling like he was shooting in the dark with her inconsistent reactions. I think in his gut he felt there was a missing piece, because it wasn't that he was disengaged, didn't care or irresponsible. He knew somewhere, that it should not be quite this hard. Good effort, yes, but he was already doing that. The more he talked yesterday the more I saw a bigger picture here that some are still missing and discounting, that he WAS engaged, WAS trying at different times over these past seven years things people have told him around here and on his own. This man is not a troglodite that has to be coached into every step of this and I support his effort to defend his position. He's earned it.

So, I appreciate your approach with me this morning.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I would say it is correct that I feel it is unfair to discount his effort and hammering on him OR assuming he doesn't "get it" at this point isn't necessary. He has been trying to piece this thing together for years.
> 
> I agree, I think he will dig through posts here and new ACOA info, make accurate choices and ultimately find peace that he was not malicious with his wife, doing the best he knew at the time, just uneducated about this ACOA dynamic, that up until now left him feeling like he was shooting in the dark with her inconsistent reactions. I think in his gut he felt there was a missing piece, because it wasn't that he was disengaged, didn't care or irresponsible. He knew somewhere, that it should not be quite this hard. Good effort, yes, but he was already doing that. The more he talked yesterday the more I saw a bigger picture here that some are still missing and discounting, that he WAS engaged, WAS trying at different times over these past seven years things people have told him around here and on his own. This man is not a troglodite that has to be coached into every step of this and I support his effort to defend his position. He's earned it.
> 
> So, I appreciate your approach with me this morning.


And I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts, too, Blossom. We all learn from each other here, and I trust we are all doing our best for Sam. 

And for free, Sam! What a deal! :grin2:


----------



## VirgenTecate

Wolf1974 said:


> From my world view again I will say comptabaility. In your example it's true that he will notice attractive women and will look. To him this is a small thing to do and also a small thing to be considerate of your feelings and not stare. To you this a big thing so I think a compromise can be reached where the two of you are on the same page. Mostly because you are wise to value and respect him and he does the same with you. You communicate and make each other the priority and hope you always do. It's easy to make compromises on the small things but when they are big issues not so much.
> 
> Where a compatibility issue would arise is if he doesn't think it's a big deal, but you do, and neither of you are willing to look at it, talk about it, or work on it.
> 
> Throughout this thread you have seen various opinions on how relationships run. I would never be with a woman who thought her needs and wants and feeling should come before mine in all things. I lived that, never again. You learn and grow and discover what you can and can't live with. I think the older we get the better off we are at picking people who compliment us vs go to war with us


I completely agree with you as well. It is about compatibility, but I also think it is a skill to be learned. However, there are people who will only ever take. For that reason we must push people to show us who they truly are before marriage...and sometimes they will never show that until they get the ring.

This is a delicate dance and many times I stumble and fall.

I wrote what I did to combat the idea that this is about getting what you want and bludgeoning the other into submission because of "emotions". It is a reciprocal tool. It wasn't necessarily a response to sam's situation.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Evinrude58 said:


> She is pissed because the man took the time to make cookies and muffins and didn't do them like she wanted, when she gave zero instructions? He should have read her mind? He should have asked? Heck, if he'd have asked, she would have thought he wasn't manning up and taking care of it without asking her to "mother" him!
> I am astonished that this is how a woman thinks.... I'm starting to be glad I'm divorced.
> 
> He's giving the wrong kind of compliments???
> 
> He's not watching her cook enough to show her he cares?
> 
> If this is really how she thinks, he needs to divorce this horrible person and find himself a person that appreciates her man taking the time to make muffins and cookies, one that tells her she's beautiful, and one that doesnt need him to actually read her mind.
> 
> She feels she can't rely on him? This guy takes care of business better than 99% of men. He's as reliable as it gets!
> HC, this is asking too much of any man. No mere mortal could make her happy if you are correct in her thoughts.
> 
> He can't rely on her for a dang hug at night...... Oh man, she is a real stinker, I think.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



"Your inability to read her mind made her feel that you haven't paid enough attention to her."

I am going to have to work on that one.

Thanks for understanding


----------



## NobodySpecial

SadSamIAm said:


> "Your inability to read her mind made her feel that you haven't paid enough attention to her."
> 
> I am going to have to work on that one.
> 
> Thanks for understanding


It is one thing to recognize that (if) your wife is insecure. It is one thing to recognize if quality time is important. It is another thing to read some fat meaning into every interaction. 1. No one has that level of attention that measuring ones reaction to a muffin request will somehow tell someone you love them. 2. It is in neither of your best interest for you to appease her feelings that she expresses through bad behavior.


----------



## GettingIt_2

NobodySpecial said:


> 2. It is in neither of your best interest for you to appease her feelings that she expresses through bad behavior.


Great point, and one that I wanted to expand upon a bit. 

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest, since Sam's position with his wife seems similar in many ways to my husband's position with me for many, many years. I really, really appreciate Sam's perspective because there has always been a huge disconnect between my husband and me that has to do with his ability to separate my feelings (valid and never dismissed by him) and my behavior (often not very good and a struggle for him sometimes.)

Without Sam's wife here to chime in, I hesitate to council him on an approach except for this opinion: you will do your marriage (and your wife) a great service if you can learn to separate her feelings from her behavior, and deal with the former with great compassion and the latter with consistent boundaries. 

If you can get your wife to trust you enough to work WITH you on this, it could be that she would be grateful. I know I don't like myself very much when I'm behaving "badly," but when I have negative feelings or when I'm struggling with insecurities, it almost always is aimed at my husband. 

Being able to admit that to myself was hard enough. Being able to admit it to my husband was even harder. But he always helps me when I acknowledge what is going on, and that has made it easier to regulate my behavior, or at least to recognize it and give him a heads up. I can't tell you what a relief it is to have him on my side on this, or how much gratitude I have for the crap he puts up with so that I can feel good and not carry anxiety about my negative emotions and how they are going to booby trap my marriage. 

It has also helped him separate the important stuff that he should pay attention to (my feelings) from the stuff he shouldn't take personally or extract meaning from (my behavior.)

I'm not happy that I work this way. Who wants to admit that the only thing that helps them feel better when they feel like sh!t is to use the person they love as a punching bag? Of course it hurts intimacy, of course it builds walls. I knew I was being a b!tch, _but I justified it because I felt so bad and didn't know other ways to feel better._ 

If you think this is the case with your wife, Sam, and if you are going to stick it out in the marriage (which I think you are), then learning to locate her feelings from within all the noise of her behavior might be a good path. Once you do that, you can give her what she needs for her feelings, and set boundaries for the good of the marriage on her behaviors.

Tricky stuff, but a few of the gents here have figured it out and have made huge strides--Marduk and Farside and MEM among them.


----------



## NobodySpecial

GettingIt said:


> Great point, and one that I wanted to expand upon a bit.
> 
> I've been following this thread with a lot of interest, since Sam's position with his wife seems similar in many ways to my husband's position with me for many, many years. I really, really appreciate Sam's perspective because there has always been a huge disconnect between my husband and me that has to do with his ability to separate my feelings (valid and never dismissed by him) and my behavior (often not very good and a struggle for him sometimes.)
> 
> Without Sam's wife here to chime in, I hesitate to council him on an approach except for this opinion: you will do your marriage (and your wife) a great service if you can *learn to separate her feelings from her behavior, and deal with the former with great compassion and the latter with consistent boundaries. *


Love. Love. Love. Love. Love. Love. Did I mention I LOVE the way you put this? I should probably tell you that I LOVE the way you put this.


----------



## jld

GettingIt said:


> It has also helped him separate the important stuff that he should pay attention to (my feelings) from the stuff he shouldn't take personally or extract meaning from (my behavior.)


Very important point. Do not take her words or actions personally, Sam--even though it is hard not to.

"It is from the heart that the mouth speaks." Focus on the hurt in her heart (and how you can be a part of healing it), not the negative manifestations of it.


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> Very important point. Do not take her words or actions personally, Sam--even though it is hard not to.
> 
> "It is from the heart that the mouth speaks." Focus on the hurt in her heart (and how you can be a part of healing it), not the negative manifestations of it.


I agree with this very much, jld, but for me that is only half of the equation. 

I can't be truly happy (free) when my crappy behavior goes untouched by my husband. It kills my desire for him, and that was a big part of the equation in the ten years we struggled with sex. 

I'm hugely attracted to him . . . but when he doesn't set boundaries on my behavior even when he's attending to my feelings, I get anxious, I feel like he must be just "putting up" with me, I feel like I'm not worth his effort, that mutual happiness is not important to him. I feel like he's not in the game, that he's just doing without intimacy for the sake of stability. That does not make me feel close to him, or loved by him, or valued as a partner. 

I NEED him to be happy *with me*---not just for him to hoop jump to make me happy. There is a difference . .


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Very important point. Do not take her words or actions personally, Sam--even though it is hard not to.
> 
> "It is from the heart that the mouth speaks." Focus on the hurt in her heart (and how you can be a part of healing it), not the negative manifestations of it.


You are missing the boundaries part. Not only don't take them personally, calmly, respectfully do not allow them. Bound them.


----------



## jld

GettingIt said:


> I agree with this very much, jld, but for me that is only half of the equation.
> 
> I can't be truly happy (free) when my crappy behavior goes untouched by my husband. It kills my desire for him, and that was a big part of the equation in the ten years we struggled with sex.
> 
> I'm hugely attracted to him . . . but when he doesn't set boundaries on my behavior even when he's attending to my feelings, I get anxious, I feel like he must be just "putting up" with me, I feel like I'm not worth his effort, that mutual happiness is not important to him. I feel like he's not in the game, that he's just doing without intimacy for the sake of stability. That does not make me feel close to him, or loved by him, or valued as a partner.
> 
> I NEED him to be happy *with me*---not just for him to hoop jump to make me happy. There is a difference . .


You want boundaries on your behavior, and you think Sam's wife would like those, too, because you feel like Sam's marriage is so much like your own?


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> You want boundaries on your behavior, and you think Sam's wife would like those, too, because you feel like Sam's marriage is so much like your own?


Liking is not the only important thing. Sometimes a person NEEDS a thing. Like can come later. I have no idea whether or not Sam's wife would like them. But she needs them. So does Sam himself.


----------



## farsidejunky

GettingIt said:


> Great point, and one that I wanted to expand upon a bit.
> 
> I've been following this thread with a lot of interest, since Sam's position with his wife seems similar in many ways to my husband's position with me for many, many years. I really, really appreciate Sam's perspective because there has always been a huge disconnect between my husband and me that has to do with his ability to separate my feelings (valid and never dismissed by him) and my behavior (often not very good and a struggle for him sometimes.)
> 
> Without Sam's wife here to chime in, I hesitate to council him on an approach except for this opinion: you will do your marriage (and your wife) a great service if you can learn to separate her feelings from her behavior, and deal with the former with great compassion and the latter with consistent boundaries.
> 
> If you can get your wife to trust you enough to work WITH you on this, it could be that she would be grateful. I know I don't like myself very much when I'm behaving "badly," but when I have negative feelings or when I'm struggling with insecurities, it almost always is aimed at my husband.
> 
> Being able to admit that to myself was hard enough. Being able to admit it to my husband was even harder. But he always helps me when I acknowledge what is going on, and that has made it easier to regulate my behavior, or at least to recognize it and give him a heads up. I can't tell you what a relief it is to have him on my side on this, or how much gratitude I have for the crap he puts up with so that I can feel good and not carry anxiety about my negative emotions and how they are going to booby trap my marriage.
> 
> It has also helped him separate the important stuff that he should pay attention to (my feelings) from the stuff he shouldn't take personally or extract meaning from (my behavior.)
> 
> I'm not happy that I work this way. Who wants to admit that the only thing that helps them feel better when they feel like sh!t is to use the person they love as a punching bag? Of course it hurts intimacy, of course it builds walls. I knew I was being a b!tch, _but I justified it because I felt so bad and didn't know other ways to feel better._
> 
> If you think this is the case with your wife, Sam, and if you are going to stick it out in the marriage (which I think you are), then learning to locate her feelings from within all the noise of her behavior might be a good path. Once you do that, you can give her what she needs for her feelings, and set boundaries for the good of the marriage on her behaviors.
> 
> Tricky stuff, but a few of the gents here have figured it out and have made huge strides--Marduk and Farside and MEM among them.


Soak this in for a moment, Sam.

More to follow.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> You want boundaries on your behavior, and you think Sam's wife would like those, too, because you feel like Sam's marriage is so much like your own?


I think she needs them. 

The reason has yet to be determined. 

A firm but compassionate hand is what is being called for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

GettingIt said:


> Great point, and one that I wanted to expand upon a bit.
> 
> I've been following this thread with a lot of interest, since Sam's position with his wife seems similar in many ways to my husband's position with me for many, many years. I really, really appreciate Sam's perspective because there has always been a huge disconnect between my husband and me that has to do with his ability to separate my feelings (valid and never dismissed by him) and my behavior (often not very good and a struggle for him sometimes.)
> 
> Without Sam's wife here to chime in, I hesitate to council him on an approach except for this opinion: you will do your marriage (and your wife) a great service if you can learn to separate her feelings from her behavior, and deal with the former with great compassion and the latter with consistent boundaries.
> 
> If you can get your wife to trust you enough to work WITH you on this, it could be that she would be grateful. I know I don't like myself very much when I'm behaving "badly," but when I have negative feelings or when I'm struggling with insecurities, it almost always is aimed at my husband.
> 
> Being able to admit that to myself was hard enough. Being able to admit it to my husband was even harder. But he always helps me when I acknowledge what is going on, and that has made it easier to regulate my behavior, or at least to recognize it and give him a heads up. I can't tell you what a relief it is to have him on my side on this, or how much gratitude I have for the crap he puts up with so that I can feel good and not carry anxiety about my negative emotions and how they are going to booby trap my marriage.
> 
> It has also helped him separate the important stuff that he should pay attention to (my feelings) from the stuff he shouldn't take personally or extract meaning from (my behavior.)
> 
> I'm not happy that I work this way. Who wants to admit that the only thing that helps them feel better when they feel like sh!t is to use the person they love as a punching bag? Of course it hurts intimacy, of course it builds walls. I knew I was being a b!tch, _but I justified it because I felt so bad and didn't know other ways to feel better._
> 
> If you think this is the case with your wife, Sam, and if you are going to stick it out in the marriage (which I think you are), then learning to locate her feelings from within all the noise of her behavior might be a good path. Once you do that, you can give her what she needs for her feelings, and set boundaries for the good of the marriage on her behaviors.
> 
> Tricky stuff, but a few of the gents here have figured it out and have made huge strides--Marduk and Farside and MEM among them.



FREAKIN BRILLIANT POST!!! You painted the picture perfectly what lies ahead of him. THANK YOU!!

This is exactly the path my H and I have walked as well times two, because I ALSO have had to do the exactly same thing with him. So can you imagine!! We are BOTH ACOA. The only exception is his Dad is a dry alcoholic and his brother is full blown. Where as my birth Dad was full blown, plus the violence I experienced with my step dad and the tremendous abuse at my mother's hands in all forms. I'm more severe in some ways than he is and he is more severe in others than me. It is AMAZING what we have overcome.

You ROCK Girl!


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> You are missing the boundaries part. Not only don't take them personally, calmly, respectfully do not allow them. Bound them.


You feel that if he binds her, she will feel happier? And want to be sexual with him?


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> You feel that if he binds her, she will feel happier? And want to be sexual with him?


I did not say bind her. Good grief.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Liking is not the only important thing. Sometimes a person NEEDS a thing. Like can come later. I have no idea whether or not Sam's wife would like them. But she needs them. So does Sam himself.


Should she put boundaries on him, too?


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Should she put boundaries on him, too?


The boundaries are not on her. I find this a little disingenuous of you, frankly. You have been on plenty of threads about boundaries. The boundaries are for HIM. To enforce how HE will be treated. The REaction one would hope for from her is to learn them. Moderate her behavior now that that is what is expected of her. Of course, there is a possibility that she will loose her noodle. But then Sam probably needs to know if that is going to be the case too.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> You are missing the boundaries part. Not only don't take them personally, calmly, respectfully do not allow them. *Bound them*.


This is where I got that, NS.


----------



## farsidejunky

Okay, Sam. I want you to tell me if you see any of this in your dynamic.

Remember I said that I am good most of the time about not needing validation from F2. Last night was not one of my better nights.

I decided to not spar at the gym because I wanted some quality time with her. So I go home and tell her I want quality time. She is a bit stand offish. She has some things to work on after dinner. 

Now, it used to be I would get bent out of shape and not say anything about it. Passive aggressive stuff. So I told her how it made me feel, which was hurt. I did it without anger, and without trying to "get her back".

Today, this is our text exchange (unprompted) as I had to leave for work two hours before she woke up.

Her: We have a communal from x (business related).
Her: You naked in bed tonight 💋
Me: Cool and cool.
Her: Cool? That's it

Now, what do you see from that? She rejected me the prior night. And now she is distressed over me not acting genuinely enthused at the prospect of her giving herself to me. Think about that for a moment. How often have you seen that from your wife?

Continued text exchange:

Me: Well yea!
Her: That's not very exciting coming from you.
Me: Communals are not the same as privates...
Her: I was talking about the sex.
Me: Oh, lol... 😎 It's on!
Her: Go ahead keep messing with me I'll dirty talk to you so you have a hard on and can't stand up to leave class!

It got more graphic from there. But here is the thing, Sam. My wife straight up rejected me last night. It wasn't malicious but rejection nonetheless. When I was not enthused enough about her initiating, she was incredibly hurt. Double standard? Absolutely. But, our dynamic used to be one that we were both hurt and waiting for the other to reach out. I see so much of that in your situation. 

The hard part is not just understanding the broken dynamic, but understanding and accepting that things will never be quite equal; that you will have to give more than you receive; that occasionally you will be hurt and have to deal with it internally without holding her to the same standard.

And Sam, I would encourage you to go read my thread if you want to see how broken our relationship was. We had sex five times or less in 2013. We couldn't stand to be near each other. 

Yes, my wife has put in some effort. But she hasn't really changed, at least, not much. But she responded to my changes. 

Chew on that for a while, brother.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> The boundaries are not on her. I find this a little disingenuous of you, frankly. You have been on plenty of threads about boundaries. The boundaries are for HIM. To enforce how HE will be treated. The REaction one would hope for from her is to learn them. Moderate her behavior now that that is what is expected of her. Of course, there is a possibility that she will loose her noodle. But then Sam probably needs to know if that is going to be the case too.


How can you *force* someone to treat you a certain way, especially your spouse? Won't that just make her smile?  It makes *me* smile, anyway. 

I think he would be better off changing his own behavior and inspiring a change in hers. I would not be inspired by my husband putting "boundaries" on me. My behavior changes naturally when he changes his.

But my marriage is not like Sam's. GI says hers is, so maybe her advice would work better for him.

Is your marriage like his, NS?


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> How can you *force* someone to treat you a certain way, especially your spouse?


You can't. Please. What are you doing? You have been here. You know how this conversation goes. You know what a boundary is. I am not having this discussion with you.

Sam, the question is, do YOU know what a boundary is?


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> What are you doing?


I disagree with this "boundary" approach, and I am trying to gently challenge your thinking on it. 

If she wholeheartedly agrees to his boundaries, good enough. But setting up some rules for her to live by, without her buy in, is likely to lead to more tension and resentment on her part.

Again, I think he could work on his own mindset and behavior, and his positive changes would naturally inspire positive change in her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I disagree with this "boundary" approach, and I am trying to gently challenge your thinking on it.
> 
> If she wholeheartedly agrees to his boundaries, good enough. But setting up some rules for her to live by, without her buy in, is likely to lead to more tension and resentment on her part.
> 
> Again, I think he could work on his own mindset and behavior, and his positive changes would naturally inspire positive change in her.


Only he has to agree to his own boundaries. Boundaries are personal to him.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Okay, Sam. I want you to tell me if you see any of this in your dynamic.
> 
> Remember I said that I am good most of the time about not needing validation from F2. Last night was not one of my better nights.
> 
> I decided to not spar at the gym because I wanted some quality time with her. So I go home and tell her I want quality time. She is a bit stand offish. She has some things to work on after dinner.
> 
> Now, it used to be I would get bent out of shape and not say anything about it. Passive aggressive stuff. So I told her how it made me feel, which was hurt. I did it without anger, and without trying to "get her back".
> 
> Today, this is our text exchange (unprompted) as I had to leave for work two hours before she woke up.
> 
> Her: We have a communal from x (business related).
> Her: You naked in bed tonight 💋
> Me: Cool and cool.
> Her: Cool? That's it
> 
> Now, what do you see from that? She rejected me the prior night. And now she is distressed over me not acting genuinely enthused at the prospect of her giving herself to me. Think about that for a moment. How often have you seen that from your wife?
> 
> Continued text exchange:
> 
> Me: Well yea!
> Her: That's not very exciting coming from you.
> Me: Communals are not the same as privates...
> Her: I was talking about the sex.
> Me: Oh, lol... 😎 It's on!
> Her: Go ahead keep messing with me I'll dirty talk to you so you have a hard on and can't stand up to leave class!
> 
> It got more graphic from there. But here is the thing, Sam. My wife straight up rejected me last night. It wasn't malicious but rejection nonetheless. When I was not enthused enough about her initiating, she was incredibly hurt. Double standard? Absolutely. But, our dynamic used to be one that we were both hurt and waiting for the other to reach out. I see so much of that in your situation.
> 
> The hard part is not just understanding the broken dynamic, but understanding and accepting that things will never be quite equal; that you will have to give more than you receive; that occasionally you will be hurt and have to deal with it internally without holding her to the same standard.
> 
> And Sam, I would encourage you to go read my thread if you want to see how broken our relationship was. We had sex five times or less in 2013. We couldn't stand to be near each other.
> 
> Yes, my wife has put in some effort. But she hasn't really changed, at least, not much. But *she responded to my changes. *
> 
> Chew on that for a while, brother.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


This.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Only he has to agree to his own boundaries. Boundaries are personal to him.


Boundary: "I will not be disrespected."

Control/demand: "You will respect me."

Ultimatum: "you will show me respect by doing X and Y or I leave."

Line in the sand: "I will not be in a marriage where I'm not respected."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> This.


Far had a comfort level redirecting in that instance. He saw he didn't need a personal boundary for that exchange. Good call.

"As soft as possible, but firm as necessary"


----------



## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> I decided to not spar at the gym because I wanted some quality time with her. So I go home and tell her I want quality time. She is a bit stand offish. She has some things to work on after dinner.
> 
> Now, it used to be I would get bent out of shape and not say anything about it. Passive aggressive stuff. So I told her how it made me feel, which was hurt. I did it without anger, and without trying to "get her back".


Can I ask a question? Did she know ahead of time that you were changing your schedule to get that quality time? Did you check in with her on this? Or did you just assume it would be okay, and she could drop everything to comply?

Personally, I would be thrilled if my SO told me he wanted quality time, and gave me opportunity to arrange my own schedule to suit that. But would be annoyed if he just expected me to drop everything and find some other time to do what I needed to do.

In the end of all, we need to be careful what we let ourselves be hurt by. Lots of things aren't personal at all.

(Also, while I'm here, one more question: why would you say that her response of "that's it" indicates that she needs to be treated with a double standard? I mean, clearly she is fishing for more, but does that necessarily mean she is hurt/angry?)


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I disagree with this "boundary" approach, and I am trying to gently challenge your thinking on it.
> 
> If she wholeheartedly agrees to his boundaries, good enough. But setting up some rules for her to live by, without her buy in, is likely to lead to more tension and resentment on her part.
> 
> Again, I think he could work on his own mindset and behavior, and his positive changes would naturally inspire positive change in her.


Still trying to dispute boundaries, are you?



Some things don't change...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Boundary: "I will not be disrespected."
> 
> Control/demand: "You will respect me."
> 
> Ultimatum: "you will show me respect by doing X and Y or I leave."
> 
> Line in the sand: "I will not be in a marriage where I'm not respected."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"I wonder how I could earn her respect? 

Not just her outward conformity to my expectations of her, but her genuine admiration of, and sincere trust in, me."


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I disagree with this "boundary" approach, and I am trying to gently challenge your thinking on it.


You are being disingenuous to the point of being dishonest. And as far as I am concerned, your advice to Sam to just suck it up and take MORE of her bull**** with out any recourse is not just bad advice, it is dangerous advice.



> If she wholeheartedly agrees to his boundaries, good enough.


This is where you are being disingenuous. You KNOW what boundaries are for. They are not for bending her to his will. NO ONE get to tell someone else what their drop dead boundaries are anymore than someone can tell someone else how to feel. One's ACTIONS state those boundaries in a manner that make them crystal clear and non-negotiable.




> But setting up some rules for her to live by, without her buy in, is likely to lead to more tension and resentment on her part.


I did not say a thing about rules and you know it. Peace out.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> "I wonder how I could earn her respect?
> 
> Not just her outward conformity to my expectations of her, but her genuine admiration of, and sincere trust in, me."


:nerd:


----------



## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> Far had a comfort level redirecting in that instance. He saw he didn't need a personal boundary for that exchange. Good call.
> 
> "As soft as possible, but firm as necessary"


Where did you see a need for boundaries in what took place? Maybe I missed something obvious.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Far had a comfort level redirecting in that instance. He saw he didn't need a personal boundary for that exchange. Good call.
> 
> "As soft as possible, but firm as necessary"


The stronger far gets in himself, the more he will inspire the behavior he wants in her.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> "I wonder how I could earn her respect?
> 
> Not just her outward conformity to my expectations of her, but her genuine admiration of, and sincere trust in, me."


Who gives a **** if he earns her respect?

This is totally wrong thinking about the whole thing. 

He needs to earn exactly one person's respect: himself. And that is the hardest thing anyone will ever do. 

Everything else flows from that. 

Honor is a gift that only you can give yourself, or take away from yourself. 

If he truly respects himself, without hiding and masks off, and she doesn't respect him... Then to hell with her. 

But I have found that I am a far harder critic about myself than anyone else is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Where did you see a need for boundaries in what took place? Maybe I missed something obvious.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


 Did I say I saw one... I don't believe I did


----------



## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> Can I ask a question? Did she know ahead of time that you were changing your schedule to get that quality time? Did you check in with her on this? Or did you just assume it would be okay, and she could drop everything to comply?
> 
> Personally, I would be thrilled if my SO told me he wanted quality time, and gave me opportunity to arrange my own schedule to suit that. But would be annoyed if he just expected me to drop everything and find some other time to do what I needed to do.
> 
> In the end of all, we need to be careful what we let ourselves be hurt by. Lots of things aren't personal at all.
> 
> (Also, while I'm here, one more question: why would you say that her response of "that's it" indicates that she needs to be treated with a double standard? I mean, clearly she is fishing for more, but does that necessarily mean she is hurt/angry?)


I did not coordinate it with her.

While I understand your point, we don't really choose what does and does not hurt us, AA, but we do choose how to behave in the face of what does hurt us. 
I can decide all day long that what happened last night will not hurt me, but I will only be lying to myself. However, how I chose to handle it is completely up to me.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Still trying to dispute boundaries, are you?
> 
> 
> 
> Some things don't change...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


They are just so boring, far. 

Inspiration is much more fulfilling.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> Where did you see a need for boundaries in what took place? Maybe I missed something obvious.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I would say she needs boundaries for acceptable behaviour.

For me it would look like "Wife, your behaviour about the baking - being upset and pushing me away for days in a passive aggressive way - is unacceptable to me. In the future, I expect a rational and open conversation from both of us about what the issue and resolution is instead."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> Can I ask a question? Did she know ahead of time that you were changing your schedule to get that quality time? Did you check in with her on this? Or did you just assume it would be okay, and she could drop everything to comply?
> 
> Personally, I would be thrilled if my SO told me he wanted quality time, and gave me opportunity to arrange my own schedule to suit that. But would be annoyed if he just expected me to drop everything and find some other time to do what I needed to do.
> 
> In the end of all, we need to be careful what we let ourselves be hurt by. Lots of things aren't personal at all.
> 
> (Also, while I'm here, one more question: why would you say that her response of "that's it" indicates that she needs to be treated with a double standard? I mean, clearly she is fishing for more, but does that necessarily mean she is hurt/angry?)


In response to your last part, if I don't act with the proper level of enthusiasm over her sexual advances, she becomes hurt incredibly easy. It ties into her low self esteem, and will happen every single time if I am less than enthusiastic.

It's okay. We all have our character flaws.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> I would say she needs boundaries for acceptable behaviour.
> 
> For me it would look like "Wife, your behaviour about the baking - being upset and pushing me away for days in a passive aggressive way - is unacceptable to me. In the future, I expect a rational and open conversation from both of us about what the issue and resolution is instead."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought BL was talking about me, not Sam. My mistake.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Who gives a **** if he earns her respect?
> 
> This is totally wrong thinking about the whole thing.
> 
> He needs to earn exactly one person's respect: himself. And that is the hardest thing anyone will ever do.
> 
> Everything else flows from that.
> 
> Honor is a gift that only you can give yourself, or take away from yourself.
> 
> If he truly respects himself, without hiding and masks off, and she doesn't respect him... Then to hell with her.
> 
> But I have found that I am a far harder critic about myself than anyone else is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I respect someone, I will allow them to influence me. I will give them the benefit of the doubt in uncertain situations. I will trust that listening to them will benefit me.

Earning respect, like trust, is really the only way to get it.

Don't confuse it with outward conformity.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> If I respect someone, I will allow them to influence me. I will give them the benefit of the doubt in uncertain situations. I will trust that listening to them will benefit me.
> 
> Earning respect, like trust, is really the only way to get it.
> 
> Don't confuse it with outward conformity.


You don't get respect by chasing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> If I respect someone, I will allow them to influence me. I will give them the benefit of the doubt in uncertain situations. I will trust that listening to them will benefit me.
> 
> Earning respect, like trust, is really the only way to get it.
> 
> Don't confuse it with outward conformity.


He isn't. What he is saying is the only person that he should have to live with is himself. He has to be what comes natural, or what he wants to be. Not some version of what someone else thinks is respectable.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Who gives a **** if he earns her respect?


It would be nice if the happy REaction to what you say below is that it increases her respect for him.



> This is totally wrong thinking about the whole thing.
> 
> He needs to earn exactly one person's respect: himself. And that is the hardest thing anyone will ever do.


Should I be pleased with myself? I jest. It actually really is hard. I had the good fortune to have someone smack that reality into my head when I was much younger and the mistakes I had made to that date much less permanent. 

People talk about self confidence as if it is so much bluster and bravado. I believe it is the cornerstone of mental health which drives good decisions, openness to things like love, compassion, empathy. Every day you love, are compassionate or empathetic, you open yourself to pain. AND PAIN WILL COME. People who are strong in self esteem don't seek to avoid pain, they simply know that they will recover.

This little side trip is about the respect you mention. Without that core of self, the esteem built on who you are, not your minute by minute accomplishments, which are so easy to dash with one failure, respect for oneself is impossible.

Basing one's SELF respect and SELF esteem on the feelings of others is sure fire way to walk a very bumpy life.



> Everything else flows from that.


Yup. But. You don't get to choose at the outset what "everything" is. Is everything GUARANTEED that Sam's wife is going to grow up, grow into learning how to soothe her own anxiety? We don't get to say that. All we get to say is, Sam, when you are your own man, things will be better no matter WHAT she chooses. That is a bitter pill to swallow.



> Honor is a gift that only you can give yourself, or take away from yourself.


This is challenging for jld because she takes her value from her husband.



> If he truly respects himself, without hiding and masks off, and she doesn't respect him... Then to hell with her.
> 
> But I have found that I am a far harder critic about myself than anyone else is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ayuh.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> You don't get respect by chasing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You get it by earning it. Mainly by doing the right thing.

I guess the trick is knowing what the right thing is.


----------



## Marduk

If he learns truly and deeply how to be true to himself while being compassionate with her - and that balance - he wins whether she comes around or not. 

It ties back to what far has been saying about validation. 

Chasing or "earning" her respect is no different than seeking validation from her. 

If he becomes stronger, he will benefit. 

If he becomes more compassionate in an enlightened self interest kind of way, he will benefit. 

If she stays, she will benefit from these changes, too. If she leaves, she won't. 

That last bit is up to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> I thought BL was talking about me, not Sam. My mistake.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I was talking about you.


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> I was talking about you.


My mistake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> You get it by earning it. Mainly by doing the right thing.
> 
> I guess the trick is knowing what the right thing is.


The right thing is subjective, JLD. There are some cultures where suicide bombing is doing the right thing. Hell, we can't agree on what the right thing is in this forum, and we are all here to improve our marriages. Granted, this is an extreme example, but you get the gist of the conversation.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> I was talking about you.


What did I miss that you thought should have had a boundary?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> If he learns truly and deeply how to be true to himself while being compassionate with her - and that balance - he wins whether she comes around or not.
> 
> It ties back to what far has been saying about validation.
> 
> Chasing or "earning" her respect is no different than seeking validation from her.


yes, yes, yes



> If he becomes stronger, he will benefit.


"Coming stronger" does not mean , as jld would have it, internalizing more of her bad behavior in the name of "not taking it personally". It means having the confidence to face the storm calmly, as you say with compassion, without allowing non negotiable boundaries to be broken.



> If he becomes more compassionate in an enlightened self interest kind of way, he will benefit.
> 
> If she stays, she will benefit from these changes, too. If she leaves, she won't.
> 
> That last bit is up to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> The right thing is subjective, JLD. There are some cultures where suicide bombing is doing the right thing. Hell, we can't agree on what the right thing is in this forum, and we are all here to improve our marriages. Granted, this is an extreme example, but you get the gist of the conversation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think sometimes it is subjective: Is a big wedding the right way to go, or a small one? Should we buy this house, or that one?

But I think there may be some deeper truths in more important areas, for those interested in seeking them. 

And no one is forced to seek them, far.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> What did I miss that you thought should have had a boundary?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I didn't.... I said you correctly assessed one wasn't needed and you redirected emotions and conversation with her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> You get it by earning it. Mainly by doing the right thing.
> 
> I guess the trick is knowing what the right thing is.


Moving target... Which is why my personal boundaries are set on my personhood.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> They are just so boring, far.
> 
> *Inspiration is much more fulfilling*.


For who? You or Dug. Does Dug feel equally fulfilled as you?

Our boundaries have actually been extremely fulfilling... it opened space for us both to blossom, heal, get stronger and have totally free movement in our relationship.


----------



## always_alone

farsidejunky said:


> I did not coordinate it with her.
> 
> While I understand your point, we don't really choose what does and does not hurt us, AA, but we do choose how to behave in the face of what does hurt us.
> I can decide all day long that what happened last night will not hurt me, but I will only be lying to myself. However, how I chose to handle it is completely up to me.


Thanks, far. And fair enough. It just seems to me that we need to be careful about assuming another person's ability to just drop everything and accommodate our whims. Maybe it is hurtful when they can't, but suppose the tables were turned? What if she, I dunno, showed up at your work and expected you to leave in the middle of a meeting? Should she be hurt when you can't?

I get that those scenarios aren't exactly parallel, but it strikes me that a whole host of marital problems fall under the simple category of "things didn't go quite the way I hoped they would.". In a lot of those cases, it seems to me, we just need to realize our imaginations often run wilder than reality will permit. And that is on us.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

always_alone said:


> Thanks, far. And fair enough. It just seems to me that we need to be careful about assuming another person's ability to just drop everything and accommodate our whims. Maybe it is hurtful when they can't, but suppose the tables were turned? What if she, I dunno, showed up at your work and expected you to leave in the middle of a meeting? Should she be hurt when you can't?
> 
> I get that those scenarios aren't exactly parallel, but it strikes me that a whole host of marital problems fall under the simple category of "things didn't go quite the way I hoped they would.". In a lot of those cases, it seems to me, we just need to realize our imaginations often run wilder than reality will permit. And that is on us.


You are describing what I call putting someone we love on our *emotional hook.* It is an unkind thing to do and you are right we all need to be aware of that dynamic.


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> You want boundaries on your behavior, and you think Sam's wife would like those, too, because you feel like Sam's marriage is so much like your own?



Hmmmm. jld, I think you misunderstand "boundaries"--at least in the way they are being put forth in this discussion. 

It's not that I want my husband to say, "You are permitted to do this, but not to do that." I'm not looking for rules when I talk about him setting boundaries. What I want is to know--for him to be honest with me--about how my behavior makes him feel. That includes knowing when my behavior threatens our intimacy. Because, you see, he is one half of this marriage, and as such, his feelings are as important as mine to it's success as an_ intimate_ union. 

If he didn't have feelings, it wouldn't matter. If he didn't want intimacy and companionship from me, it wouldn't matter. But he does have feelings, and he does want an intimate connection with me. In order to achieve that _I have to know him._ 

It's not always easy. When we reconciled three years ago, we started along that path of him absorbing it all, of him being the stoic "rock," of him sucking it up and finding a way to deal with my behavior, no matter what I threw at him. It was better than what we'd had, but it wasn't a fully intimate marriage. I felt more secure, but not . . . completely satisfied. I knew part of him was walled off. It bugged me. I didn't want to be "managed." I didn't want him to "keep the peace." _I wanted to know my husband._ 

I've written about this before, many times. When I say it is necessary that my husband sets boundaries, I mean it it necessary for him to be open with me. If something I do makes him feel bad, do I want to know about it, or do I want him to stuff it? Him telling me that my behavior is hurting out intimacy is not a way for him to control my behavior. Why? Because I trust him. 

He rarely tells me that my behavior is "bad" for us. There are one or two items that consistently bother him, and I know what they are. He doesn't harp on them constantly. He doesn't whine or demand. In fact, he rarely brings them up. I might or might not ever be able to make him happy on these counts, but the point it that I know how he feels. I'm not doing something day in and day out that erodes our intimacy without even being aware of it. 

Why should Sam--or any man--hide from their wives? It is certainly possible to be happily and intimately bound to another person . . . and still think they absolutely suck in some ways. 

I know the areas in which I absolutely suck for my husband, and he knows the areas that I think he sucks. But at least we're not afraid of what we DON'T know about one another.


----------



## SadSamIAm

I feel like I have set boundaries in the past. I have tried to enforce them and she has said 'F You'.

I need to be better. I can't set boundaries until I am better.

I know that it is very important to her that I eat better and that I exercise more. This is not unreasonable. I need to do this. 

I know that it is very important to her that I spend quality time with her. Talking to her, sharing my day. Listening to her. I need to be better at this.

In the past, I get upset because she has rejected me. I either suck up to her which is obvious to her and unattractive. Or I retreat and sulk which is even worse. I take it personally. Often when I approach her she says, "Why would I want to be close to you when you never talk to me?". 

In my head I am thinking "Why would I want to talk to you when you never want to be close to me. Why is it always me? Why are her needs more important than mine. I did talk to her. We spent all day Sunday together." I try to justify in my head why I am right and she is wrong.

I hate to admit it, but I think too often that I am working all day, I provide a nice home and nice things, I am at work while she is shopping, curling, working out etc. So my work is done and she owes me. But deep down I know that those things are not meeting her needs. Sure she likes them. But those things aren't what makes her happy.

Bottom line is I don't do a good enough job at meeting her needs. Until I do, I can't enforce any boundaries. I need to be at a place that when she rejects me, I have every right to say, "This is not acceptable!" That when she gets upset at some minor thing, I have every right to say, "This is not acceptable".

If in fact, because of the ACOH thing, she is creating chaos when things are too good, because it makes her uncomfortable, then we will need to talk about it. But we can't have that discussion honestly when I know I haven't been meeting her needs the way I can. 

I have a lot of work to do. I hope that she will follow. 

Work has been very busy today. I have a bunch to do. And I can't have my employees see me sitting here with tears in my eyes. Thanks Everyone.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ACOA instead of H yall

Yea, an important part of this process is determining when she is reasonable and unreasonable. If she is legitimately complaining about something you haven't stepped up on then yea, take your licks and do better. If you are innocent and she is being unreasonable, seek to know where it is coming from and consider what boundary may be needed and how to share it. 

Why the tears Sam?


----------



## farsidejunky

always_alone said:


> Thanks, far. And fair enough. It just seems to me that we need to be careful about assuming another person's ability to just drop everything and accommodate our whims. Maybe it is hurtful when they can't, but suppose the tables were turned? What if she, I dunno, showed up at your work and expected you to leave in the middle of a meeting? Should she be hurt when you can't?
> 
> I get that those scenarios aren't exactly parallel, but it strikes me that a whole host of marital problems fall under the simple category of "things didn't go quite the way I hoped they would.". In a lot of those cases, it seems to me, we just need to realize our imaginations often run wilder than reality will permit. And that is on us.


I would do it. I always have. That is a bit of a covert contract on my part I suppose.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

GettingIt said:


> Hmmmm. jld, I think you misunderstand "boundaries"--at least in the way they are being put forth in this discussion.
> 
> It's not that I want my husband to say, "You are permitted to do this, but not to do that." I'm not looking for rules when I talk about him setting boundaries. What I want is to know--for him to be honest with me--about how my behavior makes him feel. That includes knowing when my behavior threatens our intimacy. Because, you see, he is one half of this marriage, and as such, his feelings are as important as mine to it's success as an_ intimate_ union.
> 
> If he didn't have feelings, it wouldn't matter. If he didn't want intimacy and companionship from me, it wouldn't matter. But he does have feelings, and he does want an intimate connection with me. In order to achieve that _I have to know him._
> 
> It's not always easy. When we reconciled three years ago, we started along that path of him absorbing it all, of him being the stoic "rock," of him sucking it up and finding a way to deal with my behavior, no matter what I threw at him. It was better than what we'd had, but it wasn't a fully intimate marriage. I felt more secure, but not . . . completely satisfied. I knew part of him was walled off. It bugged me. I didn't want to be "managed." I didn't want him to "keep the peace." _I wanted to know my husband._
> 
> I've written about this before, many times. When I say it is necessary that my husband sets boundaries, I mean it it necessary for him to be open with me. If something I do makes him feel bad, do I want to know about it, or do I want him to stuff it? Him telling me that my behavior is hurting out intimacy is not a way for him to control my behavior. Why? Because I trust him.
> 
> He rarely tells me that my behavior is "bad" for us. There are one or two items that consistently bother him, and I know what they are. He doesn't harp on them constantly. He doesn't whine or demand. In fact, he rarely brings them up. I might or might not ever be able to make him happy on these counts, but the point it that I know how he feels. I'm not doing something day in and day out that erodes our intimacy without even being aware of it.
> 
> Why should Sam--or any man--hide from their wives? It is certainly possible to be happily and intimately bound to another person . . . and still think they absolutely suck in some ways.
> 
> I know the areas in which I absolutely suck for my husband, and he knows the areas that I think he sucks. But at least we're not afraid of what we DON'T know about one another.


GI, JLD believes boundaries are control, even after admitting there are boundaries in her own relationship and that she does not view them as controlling.

If the boundary is reasonable to her, they are not controlling. If they are unreasonable to her, they are controlling. I believe it is a trigger for her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> GI, JLD believes boundaries are cobtrol, even after admitting there are boundaries in her own relationship and that she does not view them as controlling.
> 
> If the boundary is reasonable to her, they are not controlling. If they are unreasonable to her, they are controlling. I believe it is a trigger for her.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk



Ahhh... incongruent definitions....

No wonder it feels like she goes all over the place on this issue.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> For who? You or Dug. Does Dug feel equally fulfilled as you?
> 
> Our boundaries have actually been extremely fulfilling... it opened space for us both to blossom, heal, get stronger and have totally free movement in our relationship.


I am sure he does. He is very happy in the marriage.

I could not respect a man who tried to control me, Blossom. But a man who inspires me will always get my respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

SadSamIAm said:


> I have a lot of work to do. I hope that she will follow.


I think she will respond. But more important, you'll be in the place YOU need to be to feel confident about asking her to.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I am sure he does. He is very happy in the marriage.
> 
> I could not respect a man who tried to control me, Blossom. But a man who inspires me will always get my respect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is inspiring to you may be stomach turning to another. I don't think you can truly understand that.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I am sure he does. He is very happy in the marriage.
> 
> I could not respect a man who tried to control me, Blossom. But a man who inspires me will always get my respect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Boundaries aren't controlling someone else.

So, I'm not sure why you view that way...

Interesting.


----------



## jld

GettingIt said:


> Hmmmm. jld, I think you misunderstand "boundaries"--at least in the way they are being put forth in this discussion.
> 
> It's not that I want my husband to say, "You are permitted to do this, but not to do that." I'm not looking for rules when I talk about him setting boundaries. What I want is to know--for him to be honest with me--about how my behavior makes him feel. That includes knowing when my behavior threatens our intimacy. Because, you see, he is one half of this marriage, and as such, his feelings are as important as mine to it's success as an_ intimate_ union.
> 
> If he didn't have feelings, it wouldn't matter. If he didn't want intimacy and companionship from me, it wouldn't matter. But he does have feelings, and he does want an intimate connection with me. In order to achieve that _I have to know him._
> 
> It's not always easy. When we reconciled three years ago, we started along that path of him absorbing it all, of him being the stoic "rock," of him sucking it up and finding a way to deal with my behavior, no matter what I threw at him. It was better than what we'd had, but it wasn't a fully intimate marriage. I felt more secure, but not . . . completely satisfied. I knew part of him was walled off. It bugged me. I didn't want to be "managed." I didn't want him to "keep the peace." _I wanted to know my husband._
> 
> I've written about this before, many times. When I say it is necessary that my husband sets boundaries, I mean it it necessary for him to be open with me. If something I do makes him feel bad, do I want to know about it, or do I want him to stuff it? Him telling me that my behavior is hurting out intimacy is not a way for him to control my behavior. Why? Because I trust him.
> 
> He rarely tells me that my behavior is "bad" for us. There are one or two items that consistently bother him, and I know what they are. He doesn't harp on them constantly. He doesn't whine or demand. In fact, he rarely brings them up. I might or might not ever be able to make him happy on these counts, but the point it that I know how he feels. I'm not doing something day in and day out that erodes our intimacy without even being aware of it.
> 
> Why should Sam--or any man--hide from their wives? It is certainly possible to be happily and intimately bound to another person . . . and still think they absolutely suck in some ways.
> 
> I know the areas in which I absolutely suck for my husband, and he knows the areas that I think he sucks. But at least we're not afraid of what we DON'T know about one another.


To me this just sounds like sharing your feelings with each other. 

When I think of boundaries, I think of rules and consequences set arbitrarily by one person. I think that is risky. 

I do think Sam should share his feelings, but should listen to hers first. I don't think it will work if he expects to go first. I think his latest post indicates that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> To me this just sounds like sharing your feelings with each other.
> 
> When I think of boundaries, I think of rules and consequences set arbitrarily by one person. I think that is risky.
> 
> I do think Sam should share his feelings, but should listen to hers first. I don't think it will work if he expects to go first. I think his latest post indicates that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They are rules and boundaries set by one person and apply to the person who is setting them for their own good


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> GI, JLD believes boundaries are control, even after admitting there are boundaries in her own relationship and that she does not view them as controlling.
> 
> If the boundary is reasonable to her, they are not controlling. If they are unreasonable to her, they are controlling. I believe it is a trigger for her.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


If they are freely agreed to by both people, I don't think they are controlling. 

And there are indeed boundaries in my marriage, even if I don't view them that way. If Dug beat me up, I would leave him. 

So maybe it depends on the seriousness of the behavior we are trying to prevent.

Yes, I am sensitive to anything resembling controlling behavior, particularly by the partner with greater power. I think it limits our growth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> I am sure he does. He is very happy in the marriage.
> 
> I could not respect a man who tried to control me, Blossom. But a man who inspires me will always get my respect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wonder if the disconnect here is lack of trust. jld, you would feel controlled, you say, if Dug sent boundaries. Does that mean you don't trust him to choose wisely for you and the marriage?

You think he is selfish with his time, for example. His choices sometimes anger you, and you have noted that they make you feel lonely or like you don't matter enough to him.

I think that would erode trust. 

Boundaries set by my husband don't make me feel controlled because my experience has been that his choices are generally good for *US* and for *OUR MARRIAGE* even if they are not what I would want. 

When things are left up to me . . . I consistently choose selfishly. That's why I'm not a good leader for our marriage. I fight him tooth and nail on things he chooses sometimes because I don't WANT them personally even if I KNOW they would benefit our marriage. I'm not the best, erm, grown-up sometimes. He, on the other hand, will put his own wants and desires aside pretty easily if it means harmony for us and for the family. 

A lot of the time I come around naturally to his views because eventually things do start to go haywire, as he predicted they would, and I don't like it. Then I get to eat crow. But that's just how I am. He learned a long time ago that he can't force me to do anything. 

When he asks me to do something these days and I say, "no," I usually understand that it's going to be a downhill slide into what he proposed anyway. 

But I've got to have my little fit first. He usually just stands back and lets me run the train of the rails, then patiently puts it back on again.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

jld said:


> If they are freely agreed to by both people, I don't think they are controlling.
> 
> And there are indeed boundaries in my marriage, even if I don't view them that way. If Dug beat me up, I would leave him.
> 
> So maybe it depends on the seriousness of the behavior we are trying to prevent.
> 
> Yes, *I am sensitive to anything resembling controlling behavior, particularly by the partner with greater power.* I think it limits our growth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This confuses me as you appear to be the one with greater power and yet seem to be very controlling


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> If they are freely agreed to by both people, I don't think they are controlling.
> 
> And there are indeed boundaries in my marriage, even if I don't view them that way. If Dug beat me up, I would leave him.
> 
> So maybe it depends on the seriousness of the behavior we are trying to prevent.
> 
> Yes, I am sensitive to anything resembling controlling behavior, particularly by the partner with greater power. I think it limits our growth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny that you view it as controlling only when it does not fit into your world view yet it is not controlling when it does?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> To me this just sounds like sharing your feelings with each other.


Yes, a lot of times that is exactly what it looks like--especially if you have a dynamic that has become grossly imbalanced towards one person "stuffing" how they feel in order to keep peace. 



jld said:


> When I think of boundaries, I think of rules and consequences set arbitrarily by one person. I think that is risky.


I don't think Sam has any interest in controlling his wife. Nothing he has ever said makes me think that he has anything but the health of their marriage in mind. He wants intimacy with his wife, not to mange her. 



jld said:


> I do think Sam should share his feelings, but should listen to hers first. I don't think it will work if he expects to go first. I think his latest post indicates that.


I don't think expecting the other person to change first is ever a good way to go. Sam is here and has been extremely receptive to a variety of ideas. If his wife would work with him, they could make faster progress, but most folks who come to TAM are not that lucky.


----------



## jld

Julius Beastcavern said:


> They are rules and boundaries set by one person and apply to the person who is setting them for their own good


Does the input of the other person matter? 

"For your own good" can be debated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> Does the input of the other person matter?
> 
> "For your own good" can be debated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, I think it's a matter of trust. 

If you don't trust that your partner is setting boundaries for the good of the marriage, you will feel like its a control tactic, or weakness, or any number of things. 

And sometimes we just don't like it when our partner sets a boundary because we're attached to the behavior that they don't like. 

If my husband decided to take up smoking, I would put my foot down. Yeah, I would be "controlling" him, but I honestly could not be married to a smoker. 

And I say that as an ex-smoker who quit 25 years ago because it was a deal breaker for the man I loved. And still do


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> What is inspiring to you may be stomach turning to another. I don't think you can truly understand that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Maybe not. I think it is because the husbands are different. I can't imagine Dug ever behaving like Sam, for example.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

GettingIt said:


> Again, I think it's a matter of trust.
> 
> If you don't trust that your partner is setting boundaries for the good of the marriage, you will feel like its a control tactic, or weakness, or any number of things.
> 
> And sometimes we just don't like it when our partner sets a boundary because we're attached to the behavior that they don't like.
> 
> If my husband decided to take up smoking, I would put my foot down. Yeah, I would be "controlling" him, but I honestly could not be married to a smoker.
> 
> And I say that as an ex-smoker who quit 25 years ago because it was a deal breaker for the man I loved. And still do


For the good of the family is important, too. I think that is an excellent boundary to have. I bet your husband would agree, so it would hardly be controlling. At least in my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Boundaries aren't controlling someone else.
> 
> So, I'm not sure why you view that way...
> 
> Interesting.


If a man says to his wife, "Stop talking about x. I don't want to hear about x anymore."

What if x is a big credit card bill they cannot pay? But it makes the husband uncomfortable to think about it?

Sometimes boundaries are set to protect ourselves when by working through the issue, however it is brought up, we could grow from it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> If a man says to his wife, "Stop talking about x. I don't want to hear about x anymore."
> 
> What if x is a big credit card bill they cannot pay? But it makes the husband uncomfortable to think about it?
> 
> Sometimes boundaries are set to protect ourselves when by working through the issue, however it is brought up, we could grow from it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's not a boundary. That is controlling. Him enforcing a boundary would be refusing to listen. It would not be justified, but it would be a boundary. For the umpteenth time, boundaries are about what I will accept from someone, not what I will enforce up on someone.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

GettingIt said:


> I wonder if the disconnect here is lack of trust. jld, you would feel controlled, you say, if Dug sent boundaries. Does that mean you don't trust him to choose wisely for you and the marriage?
> 
> You think he is selfish with his time, for example. His choices sometimes anger you, and you have noted that they make you feel lonely or like you don't matter enough to him.
> 
> I think that would erode trust.
> 
> Boundaries set by my husband don't make me feel controlled because my experience has been that his choices are generally good for *US* and for *OUR MARRIAGE* even if they are not what I would want.
> 
> When things are left up to me . . . I consistently choose selfishly. That's why I'm not a good leader for our marriage. I fight him tooth and nail on things he chooses sometimes because I don't WANT them personally even if I KNOW they would benefit our marriage. I'm not the best, erm, grown-up sometimes. He, on the other hand, will put his own wants and desires aside pretty easily if it means harmony for us and for the family.
> 
> A lot of the time I come around naturally to his views because eventually things do start to go haywire, as he predicted they would, and I don't like it. Then I get to eat crow. But that's just how I am. He learned a long time ago that he can't force me to do anything.
> 
> When he asks me to do something these days and I say, "no," I usually understand that it's going to be a downhill slide into what he proposed anyway.
> 
> But I've got to have my little fit first. He usually just stands back and lets me run the train of the rails, then patiently puts it back on again.


GI, I don't trust controlling behavior, period. To me, everything can be talked about. Everything should be talked about. And a decision should be taken that everyone can at least live with, and ideally would feel good about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> If a man says to his wife, "Stop talking about x. I don't want to hear about x anymore."
> 
> What if x is a big credit card bill they cannot pay? But it makes the husband uncomfortable to think about it?
> 
> Sometimes boundaries are set to protect ourselves when by working through the issue, however it is brought up, we could grow from it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Boundaries are just information. 

I think what you object to, jld, is enforcement of boundaries through arbitrary consequences. 

But natural consequences are what usually occur anyway. So in the case of the husband who doesn't want to talk about the credit card . . . the natural consequences will eventually catch up to him, even if his wife doesn't give him arbitrary consequences first. 

Same in relationships. Sam's wife can ignore the information he gives her about his boundaries, but the natural consequences to her ignoring that info come in the form of reduced intimacy and her husband detaching from her. That might be perfectly acceptable to her, who knows.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> That's not a boundary. That is controlling. Him enforcing a boundary would be refusing to listen. It would not be justified, but it would be a boundary. For the umpteenth time, boundaries are about what I will accept from someone, not what I will enforce up on someone.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


"Jim" won't accept talk about x. He enforces it by leaving the room, turning the volume up on the TV, etc.

I think this whole set a boundary talk can be risky, far. Sam himself has said he needs to make some deposits in his wife's emotional bank account before he can make some possible withdrawals. And some boundaries may feel like withdrawals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> GI, I don't trust controlling behavior, period. To me, everything can be talked about. Everything should be talked about. And a decision should be taken that everyone can at least live with, and ideally would feel good about.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have to believe it is controlling before you can't trust it. 

When you trust someone, you give up the belief that they would control you for their own satisfaction. You just know that it's for the good of the marriage. 

And always believing that your partner is trying to control you is . . . controlling in itself.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> If a man says to his wife, "Stop talking about x. I don't want to hear about x anymore."
> 
> What if x is a big credit card bill they cannot pay? But it makes the husband uncomfortable to think about it?
> 
> Sometimes boundaries are set to protect ourselves when by working through the issue, however it is brought up, we could grow from it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't consider that a boundary. That is just flat out rejection.


----------



## farsidejunky

You're speaking as if I advocated for boundaries from Sam. I have not. Right now, what Sam needs is to recognize his contribution to the dynamic.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## GettingIt_2

farsidejunky said:


> You're speaking as if I advocated for boundaries from Sam. I have not. Right now, what Sam needs is to recognize his contribution to the dynamic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


This is where anyone--husband or wife-- who wants to see an improvement in their relationship has to start.


----------



## Marduk

GettingIt said:


> Boundaries are just information.
> 
> I think what you object to, jld, is enforcement of boundaries through arbitrary consequences.
> 
> But natural consequences are what usually occur anyway. So in the case of the husband who doesn't want to talk about the credit card . . . the natural consequences will eventually catch up to him, even if his wife doesn't give him arbitrary consequences first.
> 
> Same in relationships. Sam's wife can ignore the information he gives her about his boundaries, but the natural consequences to her ignoring that info come in the form of reduced intimacy and her husband detaching from her. That might be perfectly acceptable to her, who knows.


Oh, my god this.

Natural consequences.

No white knighting.


----------



## jld

GettingIt said:


> Boundaries are just information.
> 
> *I think what you object to, jld, is enforcement of boundaries through arbitrary consequences. *
> 
> But natural consequences are what usually occur anyway. So in the case of the husband who doesn't want to talk about the credit card . . . the natural consequences will eventually catch up to him, even if his wife doesn't give him arbitrary consequences first.
> 
> Same in relationships. Sam's wife can ignore the information he gives her about his boundaries, but the natural consequences to her ignoring that info come in the form of reduced intimacy and her husband detaching from her. That might be perfectly acceptable to her, who knows.


I have two objections to the one-sided rules and consequences advice that runs through TAM:

1) The more vulnerable partner may be exploited

and 

2) The less vulnerable partner may not have the opportunity to grow.

I think natural consequences are easier to take. And they can be avoided, too, through pro-activity. Sam could work on himself by becoming less needy and reactive, and work on his marriage by seeking to understand and effectively communicate with his wife. 

What specific boundaries do you think need to be set?


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> I have two objections to the one-sided rules and consequences advice that runs through TAM:


I haven't seen any "one sided rules and consequences" advice given in this thread. I think most of us are rooting for Sam's marriage--not for Sam, not for Sam's wife . . . _for their marriage._ 



jld said:


> 1) The more vulnerable partner may be exploited


I don't know how we can possibly determine who the more vulnerable partner is. All we can do is encourage the person who comes seeking advice to work on themselves, and to protect themselves. That includes setting healthy boundaries. Not arbitrary boundaries. Ones that will protect the intimacy of the marriage. If someone wants to stay married, I tend to default towards protection and preservation of intimacy. You can't build/preserve intimacy if you're going to hide your feelings. 





jld said:


> 2) The less vulnerable partner may not have the opportunity to grow.


Being open to growth is a choice. Some people rise to the challenge naturally, others are suspicious of it, or fear it, and avoid it. It's easy to find reasons not to grow. I tend to ask everyone to push their boundaries and attempt to grow, even when they are sure they cannot, or should not. Vulnerability has little to do with it, IMO. 



jld said:


> I think natural consequences are easier to take. And they can be avoided, too, *through pro-activity. *


Such as setting healthy boundaries and not standing mutely by and building resentment while your partner blithely swings along, unaware of the slow death of intimacy in their marriage. 



jld said:


> Sam could work on himself by becoming less needy and reactive, and work on his marriage by seeking to understand and effectively communicate with his wife.


Less needy how? Why should he want and need less from his marriage? I think he should continue to search for ways to express himself, his wants, his needs and desires. I very much agree that he must also seek to draw his wife out and understand her wants, needs and desires as well. This is not a case where Sam or his wife should withdraw their desires or hide their feelings. That's how they got in this predicament in the first place. Sam should work on himself, I agree, but that doesn't mean continuing to hide from his wife.



jld said:


> What specific boundaries do you think need to be set?


I don't know. I'm not Sam. He should figure out what his wife does that damages intimacy for him, and communicate that to her. I'm not suggesting he ignore her feelings, I'm simply encouraging him to stop stuffing his. This whole endeavor will be a process and Sam will have to take it one day at a time. They have years of problems to undo. It takes time and patience and there is no play book.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

GettingIt said:


> I haven't seen any "one sided rules and consequences" advice given in this thread. I think most of us are rooting for Sam's marriage--not for Sam, not for Sam's wife . . . _for their marriage._
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how we can possibly determine who the more vulnerable partner is. All we can do is encourage the person who comes seeking advice to work on themselves, and to protect themselves. That includes setting healthy boundaries. Not arbitrary boundaries. Ones that will protect the intimacy of the marriage. If someone wants to stay married, I tend to default towards protection and preservation of intimacy. You can't build/preserve intimacy if you're going to hide your feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being open to growth is a choice. Some people rise to the challenge naturally, others are suspicious of it, or fear it, and avoid it. It's easy to find reasons not to grow. I tend to ask everyone to push their boundaries and attempt to grow, even when they are sure they cannot, or should not. Vulnerability has little to do with it, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Such as setting healthy boundaries and not standing mutely by and building resentment while your partner blithely swings along, unaware of the slow death of intimacy in their marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Less needy how? Why should he want and need less from his marriage? I think he should continue to search for ways to express himself, his wants, his needs and desires. I very much agree that he must also seek to draw his wife out and understand her wants, needs and desires as well. This is not a case where Sam or his wife should withdraw their desires or hide their feelings. That's how they got in this predicament in the first place. Sam should work on himself, I agree, but that doesn't mean continuing to hide from his wife.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. I'm not Sam. He should figure out what his wife does that damages intimacy for him, and communicate that to her. I'm not suggesting he ignore her feelings, I'm simply encouraging him to stop stuffing his. This whole endeavor will be a process and Sam will have to take it one day at a time. They have years of problems to undo. It takes time and patience and there is no play book.


2nd BRILLIANT post of the day!!!!!!

Extremely well said!


----------



## jld

GettingIt said:


> I haven't seen any "one sided rules and consequences" advice given in this thread. I think most of us are rooting for Sam's marriage--not for Sam, not for Sam's wife . . . _for their marriage._
> 
> I have not seen anyone suggest his wife put boundaries on him, only him on her. That looks one-sided to me.
> 
> I wonder what Sam's wife thinks would be considered rooting for the marriage.
> 
> I don't know how we can possibly determine who the more vulnerable partner is. All we can do is encourage the person who comes seeking advice to work on themselves, and to protect themselves. That includes setting healthy boundaries. Not arbitrary boundaries. Ones that will protect the intimacy of the marriage. If someone wants to stay married, I tend to default towards protection and preservation of intimacy. You can't build/preserve intimacy if you're going to hide your feelings.
> 
> She would suffer financially, is my understanding. She also does not seem to have the emotional strength to pull out of her problems, or maybe even look at them, on her own. That makes her look like the more vulnerable partner to me.
> 
> Who gets to decide what makes a boundary healthy? Does Sam's wife get a say in his boundaries? In boundaries that are supposed to protect the intimacy of the marriage?
> 
> I think listening to her and seeking to understand her would go much farther in developing intimacy in the marriage than setting boundaries on her behavior.
> 
> Nobody told him to hide his feelings. I have said he needs to listen to hers first, though.
> 
> Being open to growth is a choice. Some people rise to the challenge naturally, others are suspicious of it, or fear it, and avoid it. It's easy to find reasons not to grow. I tend to ask everyone to push their boundaries and attempt to grow, even when they are sure they cannot, or should not. Vulnerability has little to do with it, IMO.
> 
> If he is being encouraged to set the rules for the relationship, and impose consequences on her for not following his rules, I don't see much potential for growth for him.
> 
> Encouraging him to seek to understand her, and improve his own behavior, and even better, his whole mindset, would go much farther towards empowering him. It is change from the inside out.
> 
> Asking her to change impedes the growth he could experience by learning to inspire her.
> 
> Such as setting healthy boundaries and not standing mutely by and building resentment while your partner blithely swings along, unaware of the slow death of intimacy in their marriage.
> 
> Again on setting boundaries. What do you specifically mean? What you described a few posts ago just sounded like mutual sharing of feelings to me. I did not see any rules and consequences in there, like "If you don't have sex with me 4 times a week, I will divorce you."
> 
> Less needy how? Why should he want and need less from his marriage? I think he should continue to search for ways to express himself, his wants, his needs and desires. I very much agree that he must also seek to draw his wife out and understand her wants, needs and desires as well. This is not a case where Sam or his wife should withdraw their desires or hide their feelings. That's how they got in this predicament in the first place. Sam should work on himself, I agree, but that doesn't mean continuing to hide from his wife.
> 
> No more pouting and leaving for days at a time. That has got to frighten her. And what kind of example does it set for his kids?
> 
> I don't know. I'm not Sam. He should figure out what his wife does that damages intimacy for him, and communicate that to her. I'm not suggesting he ignore her feelings, I'm simply encouraging him to stop stuffing his. This whole endeavor will be a process and Sam will have to take it one day at a time. They have years of problems to undo. It takes time and patience and there is no play book.
> 
> Well, since you have advocated for setting boundaries, I would like to hear your ideas for some. What you have described so far just looks like sharing feelings to me. Not what I think of when I think of boundaries (limits).


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Jld, have you read the book Boundaries by Cloud? He is very specific about what they are and what they aren't. I think you are confusing the boundaries we speak of described in that book with the sub/dom world or some other book and they aren't the same.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Jld, have you read the book Boundaries by Cloud? He is very specific about what they are and what they aren't. I think you are confusing the boundaries we speak of described in that book with the sub/dom world or some other book and they aren't the same.


Have not read the book. A boundary to me is a limit.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Have not read the book. A boundary to me is a limit.


That's not what the book says. So until you read the book, you are not going to understand. I challenge you to read the book.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> That's not what the book says. So until you read the book, you are not going to understand. I challenge you to read the book.


I just took a look at the PDF. I saw this:

_"Many people think that boundaries are about selfishness and are at their root, self-serving." _

That is definitely my concern.

The write up assures that boundaries are not meant to be selfish. I cannot imagine the writers of the book would mean for them to be. The average human running with that ball, though . . . questionable.


----------



## jld

Sam, I just recommended this book to chunder, but you might enjoy it, too:

://www.amazon.com/Hold-Me-Tight-Conversations-Lifetime/dp/1491513810?tag=viglink21453-20]


_"The message of Hold Me Tight is simple: Forget about learning how to argue better, analyzing your early childhood, making grand romantic gestures, or experimenting with new sexual positions. Instead, get to the emotional underpinnings of your relationship by recognizing that you are emotionally attached to and dependent on your partner in much the same way that a child is on a parent for nurturing, soothing, and protection. 

Dr. Johnson teaches that the way to enhance or save a relationship is to be open, attuned, and responsive to each other and to reestablish emotional connection. With this in mind, she focuses on key moments in a relationship―from Recognizing the Demon Dialogues to Forgiving Injuries―and uses them as touch points for seven healing conversations. These conversations give you insight into the defining moments in your relationship and guide you in reshaping these moments to create a secure and lasting bond."_


----------



## pidge70

Geez, threadjack city up in here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I just took a look at the PDF. I saw this:
> 
> _"Many people think that boundaries are about selfishness and are at their root, self-serving." _
> 
> That is definitely my concern.
> 
> The write up assures that boundaries are not meant to be selfish. I cannot imagine the writers of the book would mean for them to be. The average human running with that ball, though . . . questionable.


I challenge you to read the whole book.


----------



## GettingIt_2

*jld>> have not seen anyone suggest his wife put boundaries on him, only him on her. That looks one-sided to me.*

Sam's wife isn't here, but that doesn't mean we think she's the enemy. I don't think the problems in the marriage are all her fault. They both contributed to the current dynamic. If she comes here and gives her side, she'll get our opinions, same as Sam got. 

*I wonder what Sam's wife thinks would be considered rooting for the marriage.*

I don't know. But if she wants the best that Sam has to offer, she is going to have to listen to what he has to say about how to build intimacy with him. 

*She would suffer financially, is my understanding. She also does not seem to have the emotional strength to pull out of her problems, or maybe even look at them, on her own. That makes her look like the more vulnerable partner to me.*

I think this is where we all project a bit. We can only guess at what is really going on with her. But even if she is vulnerable, what Sam is trying to do is give her the benefit of a marriage in which is he fully invested. And that will bring her more stability, not less. 

*Who gets to decide what makes a boundary healthy? Does Sam's wife get a say in his boundaries? In boundaries that are supposed to protect the intimacy of the marriage?*

No, she doesn't get a say. She can chose to ignore them though. I still think you have the wrong idea of boundaries, jld. They are meant to be threats, or to control the other person. They are meant to communicate, to give information, about what optimizes happiness, intimacy, feelings of well being, etc, etc, for a person. Some of Sam's boundaries very well might be at odds with some of his wife's. C'est la vie. The point is that they know what works best for one another. 

*I think listening to her and seeking to understand her would go much farther in developing intimacy in the marriage than setting boundaries on her behavior.

Nobody told him to hide his feelings. I have said he needs to listen to hers first, though.*

You don't have to chose one over the other. It's all important stuff. And I think he is willing to go first, and is comfortable with that. I'm not sure how different this attempt will be from others he has made, but if he's got the energy and the stamina and the ideas, then it can't hurt to keep trying. 


*If he is being encouraged to set the rules for the relationship, and impose consequences on her for not following his rules, I don't see much potential for growth for him. 

Encouraging him to seek to understand her, and improve his own behavior, and even better, his whole mindset, would go much farther towards empowering him. It is change from the inside out.* 

He doesn't get to set the rules for the relationship; but he has to determine what he needs in order to stay invested in the marriage, to feel bonded to his wife, etc. Those aren't "rules." 

*Asking her to change impedes the growth he could experience by learning to inspire her.*

Bullsh!t. And I mean that in the friendliest of ways, my dear. Sam isn't the only one who needs to grow and change so that this marriage can thrive. Again, I'd not advocating for a situation where only Sam is happy or only his wife is happy--this is about maximizing happiness for them both. Sam isn't happy with the intimacy in his marriage. Maybe his wife doesn't care about that; but then she's not getting the benefit of Sam's considerable capacity to love her. Maybe she's choose differently if she knew what that would look like. 

*Again on setting boundaries. What do you specifically mean? What you described a few posts ago just sounded like mutual sharing of feelings to me. I did not see any rules and consequences in there, like "If you don't have sex with me 4 times a week, I will divorce you."*

I already said boundaries are not rules and consequences. Think of them of expressions of feelings if that helps make them less threatening. 

*No more pouting and leaving for days at a time. That has got to frighten her. And what kind of example does it set for his kids?*

I agree--if he's going to commit to the marriage, leaving isn't productive. If he needs a break, then he can arrange to go away for a few days and not make it so dramatic. 

*Well, since you have advocated for setting boundaries, I would like to hear your ideas for some. What you have described so far just looks like sharing feelings to me. Not what I think of when I think of boundaries (limits).*

It think it's pretty obvious by now that you have a much more nefarious view of boundaries than I do, but I still can't offer anything concrete by way of what Sam should do. I can only say what would work for me . . . and I'm guessing turning his wife over his knee and spanking her with the spatula he used to make the less-than-perfect cookies ain't gonna work for him.


----------



## Duguesclin

What are examples of boundaries people would like Sam to have? It would be nice to have some concrete examples to make sure we are all on the same page.

Whether we like it or not, a boundary is meant to control your environment. If my neighbor's dog comes in my yard and I do not like it, I can enforce my property limits. My neighbor will have to figure a way to control his dog. I would have effectively controlled my neighbor.


----------



## jld

I don't think boundaries are just expressions of feelings, GI. I think boundaries are limits. 

Putting the emphasis on setting boundaries, as opposed to opening one's heart to one's spouse, particularly to listening to and seeking to understand one's spouse, seems self-protective more than anything.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Dug/jld

Read the book.

Its very specific.


----------



## jld

I have it here next to me. I found it in my closet.

Any specific part you want me to read?

I looked at the table of rules and consequences on page 227. Blossom, I really do not feel that is as growth-inspiring for both people as two open hearts seeking to understand each other, or even just one seeking to lead through example. And I think under certain circumstances, those consequences could escalate conflict greatly. Giving away your spouse's clothes because they did not put them away? Seriously?


----------



## jld

I think the best marriage manual out there is _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People._


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I have it here next to me. I found it in my closet.
> 
> Any specific part you want me to read?
> 
> I looked at the table of rules and consequences on page 227. Blossom, I really do not feel that is as growth-inspiring for both people as two open hearts seeking to understand each other, or even just one seeking to lead through example. And I think under certain circumstances, those consequences could escalate conflict greatly. Giving away your spouse's clothes because they did not put them away? Seriously?


Look at page 201 at the bottom. "God designed boundaries for..."

I personally would not give away my spouses things, boundaries are self defined.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Hmmmm, Dug, I'll try to come up with an example of something Sam could do. But it might not look like a boundary to you or to jld. We do seem to have different views. 

I don't see them as having as a purpose control of others so much as being a part of honest expression of who a person is. I think it is helpful to know the boundaries of the person you strive to be intimate with, even if you struggle to honor those boundaries. 

But right now I'm going to switch gears and get off TAM and go read more of this really great book I'm working my way through. It's called The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know is Possible. Some intriguing stuff about inspiring change in that book. I think you and jld might like it!


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Look at page 201 at the bottom. "God designed boundaries for..."
> 
> I personally would not give away my spouses things, boundaries are self defined.


I read that, Blossom. I read a little more, too. 

I just don't think it sounds as healthy as opening your heart to each other. For certain personalities, though, maybe it would be appealing.

And I just have a hard time trusting authors who recommend giving your spouse's clothing away if you find your spouse too messy. Harsh.


----------



## JJXmomma

Wow there have been a lot of posts here since yesterday. I just read the muffin incident for the first time just now and have to say I agree with blossom Leigh's viewpoint. 

It sounds like a lot of people are trying to help Sam figure out how to make his wife happy. Sounds fine right? But he can't be responsible for her happiness. He will fail because he can't read her mind and know exactly what she wants at any given moment. That is completely unrealistic. If she is so bent out of shape because he made muffins differently than her and people liked it anyway, she is struggling with a lot of her own unhappiness. Sam would be like trying to scoop out the ocean with a cup if he tries to cater around her every little minute bad thing that happens to her. 

I have a tendency to try depressed. Does my husband feel it's his responsibility to pull me out of it? No. As much as it sucks at the time, he doesn't. He continues to love me and asks me if there is anything I need him to do but he doesn't jump through hoops to appease me either. 

I think a lot of people are being unfair to Sam here. Don't get me wrong it's good to give him advice as that's what he's asking for but he sounds like he's trying so hard and just getting beaten down. I think counseling would be the best thing if she is interested. I also think Sam should try to take care of himself as much as possible to stay healthy. Continue to love her and show her he cares but try to stop worrying and feeling responsible for her every mood.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I read that, Blossom. I read a little more, too.
> 
> I just don't think it sounds as healthy as opening your heart to each other. For certain personalities, though, maybe it would be appealing.
> 
> And I just have a hard time trusting authors who recommend giving your spouse's clothing away if you find your spouse too messy. Harsh.



I agree and personally wouldn't choose that.

I can think for myself.

Doesn't mean the entire idea is dismissed.

I'm going to share a boundary I used several years ago... It will take me a moment to write it out.


----------



## jld

GettingIt said:


> Hmmmm, Dug, I'll try to come up with an example of something Sam could do. But it might not look like a boundary to you or to jld. We do seem to have different views.
> 
> I don't see them as having as a purpose control of others so much as being a part of honest expression of who a person is. I think it is helpful to know the boundaries of the person you strive to be intimate with, even if you struggle to honor those boundaries.
> 
> But right now I'm going to switch gears and get off TAM and go read more of this really great book I'm working my way through. It's called The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know is Possible. Some intriguing stuff about inspiring change in that book. I think you and jld might like it!


Looks very nice, GI:

_"In a time of social and ecological crisis, what can we as individuals do to make the world a better place? This inspirational and thought-provoking book serves as an empowering antidote to the cynicism, frustration, paralysis, and overwhelm so many of us are feeling, replacing it with a grounding reminder of what’s true: we are all connected, and our small, personal choices bear unsuspected transformational power. By fully embracing and practicing this principle of interconnectedness—called interbeing—we become more effective agents of change and have a stronger positive influence on the world.

Throughout the book, Eisenstein relates real-life stories showing how small, individual acts of courage, kindness, and self-trust can change our culture’s guiding narrative of separation, which, he shows, has generated the present planetary crisis. He brings to conscious awareness a deep wisdom we all innately know: until we get our selves in order, any action we take—no matter how good our intentions—will ultimately be wrongheaded and wronghearted. Above all, Eisenstein invites us to embrace a radically different understanding of cause and effect, sounding a clarion call to surrender our old worldview of separation, so that we can finally create the more beautiful world our hearts know is possible."_


I am wondering if you are talking about accepting the capabilities of the other person? Is that what you mean by boundaries?

To me, that seems different. For example, Dug is never going to be as emotionally expressive as I am. He just is not as emotional. If I expected that of him, I would be continually disappointed.

I am not athletic. If Dug wanted that from me, he would be continually disappointed. We have to accept each other's capabilities.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Before my H did his hard work and several years ago we had an agreement that if I was struggling emotionally with his vocal and facial pressure while he is communicating then I would simply say. Baby, I need for you to back your energy down. It was code word to let him know my PTSD was triggering.

He found out how important it was when one night he chose to push right past my SEVERAL "calm" warnings to back the pressure off and by the time he was done I was in full blown panic attack. It was VERY hard to get calmed back down , but that is a boundary. I could tell I was triggering and needed for him to not push in on me like that. He is 6'3" and a BIG guy. When he is angry he is LOUD naturally without trying and there have been a few times where I was triggering so hard on his energy that by the time I kept asking him to back his energy down, he was practically wispering.

The reason I had that boundary there was because I feared inflicting irreversible damage on our relationship during a PTSD episode. So it was to protect the relationship from additional damage while I worked on my triggers.

Today, it is rare I have to do that. Two reasons, I know his is for me and not against me.  And he isn't struggling to be heard anymore. He had some hangups about being heard. He worked those out and doesnt press in so hard any more. And a third, my triggers are just no longer that severe. I've done a lot of work and it paid off.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Looks very nice, GI:
> 
> _"In a time of social and ecological crisis, what can we as individuals do to make the world a better place? This inspirational and thought-provoking book serves as an empowering antidote to the cynicism, frustration, paralysis, and overwhelm so many of us are feeling, replacing it with a grounding reminder of what’s true: we are all connected, and our small, personal choices bear unsuspected transformational power. By fully embracing and practicing this principle of interconnectedness—called interbeing—we become more effective agents of change and have a stronger positive influence on the world.
> 
> Throughout the book, Eisenstein relates real-life stories showing how small, individual acts of courage, kindness, and self-trust can change our culture’s guiding narrative of separation, which, he shows, has generated the present planetary crisis. He brings to conscious awareness a deep wisdom we all innately know: until we get our selves in order, any action we take—no matter how good our intentions—will ultimately be wrongheaded and wronghearted. Above all, Eisenstein invites us to embrace a radically different understanding of cause and effect, sounding a clarion call to surrender our old worldview of separation, so that we can finally create the more beautiful world our hearts know is possible."_
> 
> 
> I am wondering if you are talking about accepting the capabilities of the other person? Is that what you mean by boundaries?
> 
> To me, that seems different. For example, Dug is never going to be as emotionally expressive as I am. He just is not as emotional. If I expected that of him, I would be continually disappointed.
> 
> I am not athletic. If Dug wanted that from me, he would be continually disappointed. We have to accept each other's capabilities.



Yes, boundaries absolutely includes, others acceptance and self acceptance. The boundaries are actually the defined boundary of who I am. And.. the defined boundaey of who you are. THAT is the boundary. So its self respect, and others respect. Part of boundaries is communicating your "who." And hearing the other person communicate their "who."


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Before my H did his hard work and several years ago we had an agreement that if I was struggling emotionally with his vocal and facial pressure while he is communicating then I would simply say. Baby, I need for you to back your energy down. It was code word to let him know my PTSD was triggering.
> 
> He found out how important it was when one night he chose to push right past my SEVERAL "calm" warnings to back the pressure off and by the time he was done I was in full blown panic attack. It was VERY hard to get calmed back down , but that is a boundary. I could tell I was triggering and needed for him to not push in on me like that. He is 6'3" and a BIG guy. When he is angry he is LOUD naturally without trying and there have been a few times where I was triggering so hard on his energy that by the time I kept asking him to back his energy down, he was practically wispering.
> 
> The reason I had that boundary there was because I feared inflicting irreversible damage on our relationship during a PTSD episode. So it was to protect the relationship from additional damage while I worked on my triggers.
> 
> Today, it is rare I have to do that. Two reasons, I know his is for me and not against me. And he isn't struggling to be heard anymore. He had some hangups about being heard. He worked those out and doesnt press in so hard any more. And a third, my triggers are just no longer that severe. I've done a lot of work and it paid off.


Okay, this sounds more like a plan than a boundary to me. It was agreed to by both of you ahead of time, and you each had your roles to play.

He did not follow the mutually agreed upon plan and the natural consequence to both of you was your panic attack.

Just not seeing a boundary and imposed consequence there, myself.

When I say boundary, I mean limit. And one-sided limits often seem to come with imposed consequences, like the clothes on the floor that get given away from the Boundaries book.


----------



## jld

Blossom . . . just wanted to say it is great that you two have done the work you have, and cleared up a lot of the former conflicts.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Okay, this sounds more like a plan than a boundary to me. It was agreed to by both of you ahead of time, and you each had your roles to play.
> 
> He did not follow the mutually agreed upon plan and the natural consequence to both of you was your panic attack.
> 
> Just not seeing a boundary and imposed consequence there, myself.
> 
> When I say boundary, I mean limit. And one-sided limits often seem to come with imposed consequences, like the clothes on the floor that get given away from the Boundaries book.


JLD, are you avoiding calling it a boundary? Why? Do I smell pride?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Okay, this sounds more like a plan than a boundary to me. It was agreed to by both of you ahead of time, and you each had your roles to play.
> 
> He did not follow the mutually agreed upon plan and the natural consequence to both of you was your panic attack.
> 
> Just not seeing a boundary and imposed consequence there, myself.
> 
> When I say boundary, I mean limit. And one-sided limits often seem to come with imposed consequences, like the clothes on the floor that get given away from the Boundaries book.


The boundary part of it is "my who includes being a woman with PTSD"

Therefore I need for you to be mindful of your energy when we argue

If you cant do that, you will unfortunately be at the receiving end of a PTSD episode.

And something like that has to seriously be ethically done because I could hold it over his head that I have that, but I choose not to. He didn't cause my PTSD, so I take responsibility for managing it, but I also communicate my personal limits to him.

One of which ended up being living with his chronic anger long term. There was just no way I could do that.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> JLD, are you avoiding calling it a boundary? Why? Do I smell pride?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I told you: I see a mutually agreed to plan, not a boundary.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Blossom . . . just wanted to say it is great that you two have done the work you have, and cleared up a lot of the former conflicts.


Me too. Thank you


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> The boundary part of it is "my who includes being a woman with PTSD"
> 
> Therefore I need for you to be mindful of your energy when we argue
> 
> If you cant do that, you will unfortunately be at the receiving end of a PTSD episode.
> 
> And something like that has to seriously be ethically done because I could hold it over his head that I have that, but I choose not to. He didn't cause my PTSD, so I take responsibility for managing it, but I also communicate my personal limits to him.
> 
> One of which ended up being living with his chronic anger long term. There was just no way I could do that.


I do not see that as a boundary. I see that as part of who you are, your condition, like a diabetic having a low blood sugar attack if you do not eat regularly, and he is the only one who can get you the food. 

But again, we may be defining boundaries differently.

And you both received the natural consequences of his pushing, not just him. That right there was probably motivating to him to be more careful in the future.

Blossom, when I say boundary, I mean something like, "If you do not hug me on your own at least once a day, I will not speak to you until the next day." This would be in reference to Sam's frustration with his wife's lack of initiation. I just do not think this sort of thing is healthy.


----------



## farsidejunky

SMH... Potato, potahto... 

Going to bed now.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> SMH... Potato, potahto...
> 
> Going to bed now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Good night, far. 

Maybe tomorrow you could give an example of the kind of boundary you would like Sam to institute?


----------



## farsidejunky

farsidejunky said:


> You're speaking as if I advocated for boundaries from Sam. I have not. Right now, what Sam needs is to recognize his contribution to the dynamic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Repeating for effect.

Gnight.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I do not see that as a boundary. I see that as part of who you are, your condition, like a diabetic having a low blood sugar attack if you do not eat regularly, and he is the only one who can get you the food.
> 
> But again, we may be defining boundaries differently.
> 
> And you both received the natural consequences of his pushing, not just him. That right there was probably motivating to him to be more careful in the future.
> 
> Blossom, when I say boundary, I mean something like, "If you do not hug me on your own at least once a day, I will not speak to you until the next day." This would be in reference to Sam's frustration with his wife's lack of initiation. I just do not think this sort of thing is healthy.


The latter is not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating Sam communicating where is personal limits are, his "who" and what his who is willing to accept or not accept. For instance, lets just say that IF Sam's wife had slapped him for those cookies, he could say "I will accept you are upset about the cookies, but what I will not accept is you slapping me for that. In the future I ask you to refrain from physically expressing your upset, but instead choose words to express it. If you choose this behavior in the future, then I will be removing myself from this relationship."

Note to all readers.... Sams wife did not slap him. Just wanted an example that has a crystal clear difference in behavior choices.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Repeating for effect.
> 
> Gnight.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


You're right, far. You were not one of the ones encouraging him to set boundaries. Sorry about that.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> The latter is not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating Sam communicating where is personal limits are, his "who" and what his who is willing to accept or not accept. For instance, lets just say that IF Sam's wife had slapped him for those cookies, he could say "I will accept you are upset about the cookies, but what I will not accept is you slapping me for that. In the future I ask you to refrain from physically expressing your upset, but instead choose words to express it. If you choose this behavior in the future, then I will be removing myself from this relationship."
> 
> Note to all readers.... Sams wife did not slap him. Just wanted an example that has a crystal clear difference in behavior choices.


I certainly understand leaving a relationship due to physical aggression. But to my knowledge, there has not been any physical aggression in Sam's marriage. Yet many want him to institute boundaries. 

Could you give a realistic example of a boundary you would like Sam to set?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I certainly understand leaving a relationship due to physical aggression. But to my knowledge, there has not been any physical aggression in Sam's marriage. Yet many want him to institute boundaries.
> 
> Could you give a realistic example of a boundary you would like Sam to set?


Yea, I will do one tomorrow. Going to go lay down for now. Not feelung very well. Good Night


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I will do one tomorrow. Going to go lay down for now. Not feelung very well. Good Night


Hope a good night's rest will make you feel better, Blossom.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I found a thread Sam has and one I write out the boundary, I will cut and paste over here, include the link, but then finish the topic over there. I'm headed to thr school with my baby boy. Be back in a bit


----------



## GettingIt_2

So I think we've established that "boundary" means different things to different people. 

jld sees them as threatening, other see them as a part of healthy relationship hygiene. Like anything else, our views are probably influenced by our experiences. 

I don't advocate for the sort of boundaries that jld is afraid of; at least not for Sam, who wants to stay married and who is willing to own his part in a marriage that feels dissatisfying to him in many ways. I do advocate that he does the sort of work on personal boundaries that will allow him to feel more in control of his happiness. (For the record, his wife should do this, too. They both seem to "ping" of of one another's negativity in ways that continue to hurt their intimacy.)

Here is a little article that sort of gets to the heart of the sort of boundary setting that I do advocate: 

How to Set Healthy Boundaries: 3 Crucial First Steps

Sam could work on identifying the behaviors from his wife that affect him negatively and that he would 
1. Minimize his contact with those behaviors
2. Mitigate the impact those behaviors have on him
3. Work with his wife on changing her behaviors, if she is willing.

He will probably have to rely on 1 and 2, at least for the short term. How he decides to minimize contact with behaviors that hurt him and/or mitigate the impact those behaviors have on him is up to him to determine. It might be that he will identify some goals and then work on boundary setting in service to those goals. For example, if he chooses not to tell his wife when her words are causing him to think she is out of line (such as with the cookie incident), then he might choose to have a conversation with her at a later date about how they communicate. Or he might decide to detach from her a bit and just ignore the way she blames him when she is upset about something. 

Sam has to figure this out for himself; we all do. 

Based on my person experience, I think Sam's marriage would benefit if he could learn to separate his wife's feelings from her behavior, and then work with her on how she can better communicate her feelings to him so that he can attend to them right away instead of having to wade through his involuntary responses to her behavior first.


----------



## NobodySpecial

GettingIt said:


> So I think we've established that "boundary" means different things to different people.
> 
> jld sees them as threatening, other see them as a part of healthy relationship hygiene. Like anything else, our views are probably influenced by our experiences.
> 
> I don't advocate for the sort of boundaries that jld is afraid of; at least not for Sam, who wants to stay married and who is willing to own his part in a marriage that feels dissatisfying to him in many ways. I do advocate that he does the sort of work on personal boundaries that will allow him to feel more in control of his happiness. (For the record, his wife should do this, too. They both seem to "ping" of of one another's negativity in ways that continue to hurt their intimacy.)
> 
> Here is a little article that sort of gets to the heart of the sort of boundary setting that I do advocate:
> 
> How to Set Healthy Boundaries: 3 Crucial First Steps
> 
> Sam could work on identifying the behaviors from his wife that affect him negatively and that he would
> 1. Minimize his contact with those behaviors
> 2. Mitigate the impact those behaviors have on him
> 3. Work with his wife on changing her behaviors, if she is willing.
> 
> He will probably have to rely on 1 and 2, at least for the short term. How he decides to minimize contact with behaviors that hurt him and/or mitigate the impact those behaviors have on him is up to him to determine. It might be that he will identify some goals and then work on boundary setting in service to those goals. For example, if he chooses not to tell his wife when her words are causing him to think she is out of line (such as with the cookie incident), then he might choose to have a conversation with her at a later date about how they communicate. Or he might decide to detach from her a bit and just ignore the way she blames him when she is upset about something.
> 
> Sam has to figure this out for himself; we all do.
> 
> Based on my person experience, I think Sam's marriage would benefit if he could learn to separate his wife's feelings from her behavior, and then work with her on how she can better communicate her feelings to him so that he can attend to them right away instead of having to wade through his involuntary responses to her behavior first.


You are, indeed, GeetingIt. And communicating as clearly as a bell. Yes!


----------



## jld

Sam should focus on changing his own behavior. If he changes, his wife is likely to, as well. This is a position of freedom for Sam: he does not have to wait for his wife to change. His current emotional dependence on her frustrates him greatly.

My biggest concern with all the boundary talk is that it seems like a defensive posture, rather than an open, inviting posture. I think relationships function better with an attitude of "Help me understand," rather than "Don't do that!" One invites communication, and one very likely shuts it down.

It seems to me that both Sam and his wife expect each other to be the leader. They each prefer to be the responder.

If Sam can become the leader, at least initially, his wife will likely respond to his positive changes. Expecting her to initiate positive change will prove disappointing for Sam.

Learning to not take her words and actions personally could prove freeing for him.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

One issue I see as an on going issue with them is when S2 wants him near and when he does, she is prickly.

So, one boundary issue I would work on if I were him would be to target this push pull he's getting. 

So lets say she's been after him to talk to her and he keeps trying and trying and every single time she is a barbed porcupine. If I were in his shoes, ESPECIALLY if he is kind, considerate, has already attempted hearing her and being warm, I would say something to the effect of "It is an extremely unpleasant experience following invitations to heart connect through talking, bring my whole heart to the conversation, then find myself running into the barbs of your porcupine attitude, so when you choose to put the porcupine quills away, I will be back to talk. Until then I will not be subjecting myself to this chronic pain. I'm choosing to not live like that any longer, no one should have to."

Then anytime after that if she invites to talk and he KNOWS he is in the clear on his care for her and the quills come out again, he can simply say "I'm not talking to porcupine quills" and hit that truth drum regular until the behavior disappears. She is CHOOSING those quills and she can choose to lay them down. 

Now if she wants to come back around and tell him .... "ok, I hear you, but those quills are there because of xyz", then they can get to the bottom of xyz, but he does not have to live in chronic pain like that. He can work on detachment and self fulfillment, which I feel both will help to mitigate "some" of the impact of her actions, but it's not going to eliminate all of it and at the end of the day it still has to be addressed. Taking it too far into acceptance is the beginning of conditioning yourself to accept abusive attitudes, words, deeds and that can expand too far. So part of this is Sam recognizing how much he can legitimately take and how much he can't then make it known what he will and will not accept. This push pull is one of the MAIN issues between the two of them. 

He may have more self assessment on his contribution to the push pull, but sometimes the boundary will serve to give him space to breathe and heal, before he has everything figured out. He needs a break, that much is crystal clear to me. Its very telling to me that his daughter was proud of him for moving out and standing up to his wife. She does not like how her mother treats him. And she is boots on the ground.


----------



## ButtPunch

Keeping Good Boundaries & Getting Your Needs Met By Rachel Eddins

Keeping Good Boundaries & Getting Your Needs Met. You may be familiar with the psychological term “boundaries,” but what does it mean and how does it apply to you?

Put plainly, boundaries are the line between where I end and you begin. Healthy boundaries define who we are in relation to others. They also help us to know what the extents and limits are with others. Personal boundaries are how we teach people who we are and how we would like to be handled in relationships. Boundaries help you to say, “This is who I am.”

Good personal boundaries protect you. Without them life feels scary and you may feel anxious. Having a sense of boundaries and limits also helps you to connect with your true self. They are based on your beliefs, thoughts, feelings, decisions, choices, wants, needs, and intuitions. They are clear, firm, maintained, and sometimes flexible.

Ultimately, when you don’t protect or overprotect your boundaries, your needs go unmet, which can lead to anxiety or compulsive behaviors such as overeating, addictions, or working too much. Setting healthy boundaries allows you to connect with yourself, your emotions and your needs. It allows you to feel safe, to relax and to feel empowered to care for yourself.

Loose Boundaries Lead to Emotional Drain

When boundaries are loose, you may easily take on the emotions and needs of others. There is a little sense of a separate self and you may experience difficulty identifying your own emotions and needs. People with loose boundaries often are hypersensitive to others’ comments and criticisms.

Common signs of loose boundaries include overinvolvement in others’ lives; perfectionism and people pleasing; trying to fix and control others with judgments and advice; staying in unhealthy relationships; taking on too much work or too many commitments; and avoiding being alone too much. When your boundaries are too loose you can feel responsible for everything and everyone, powerless, imposed upon, and resentful.

Unconsciously, loose boundaries may represent your own need for caretaking. Ultimately, however, they disconnect you from yourself as you’re not connected with your own emotions and needs. The disconnection can lead to compulsive behaviors such as overeating and working too much.

Rigid Boundaries Lead to Loneliness

For some people, too much closeness is anxiety-provoking. Intimacy may be frightening due to fears of being suffocated and the loss of independence. Some may also avoid connection with themselves due to a harsh internal critic. Feelings of emptiness and depression may be present, along with difficulty giving and receiving care and concern.

Ultimately, rigid boundaries can lead to chronic feelings of loneliness. It can be a double-edged sword – craving connection while fearing closeness. Rigid boundaries represent a protection from vulnerability, where hurt, loss and rejection can occur and be especially painful.

Here are some signs that your boundaries need adjusting:

Feel unable to say no
Feel responsible for others’ emotions
Concerned about what others think to the point of discounting your own thoughts, opinions and intuition
Your energy is so drained by something that you neglect your own needs (including the need for food, rest, etc.)
People-pleasing
Avoiding intimate relationships
Inability to make decisions
Believe your happiness depends on others
Take care of others’ needs, but not your own
Others’ opinions are more important than your own
Have difficulty asking for what you want or need
Go along with others vs. with what you want
Feel anxious or afraid
Not sure what you really feel
Take on moods or emotions of others around you
Overly sensitive to criticism
How to Set Effective Boundaries

If you find that you may have loose or rigid boundaries, it’s OK. Try not to judge where you are right now. Rather, approach it with curiosity and openness. Read through the following suggestions and find one thing you can start with today. Give it a try and see how you feel. Remember, it may be uncomfortable at first as you are learning a new skill. Stick with it. You deserve to be treated as valuable, which is what healthy boundaries communicate. You may need to remind yourself that this is a form of loving self-care and you’re doing the best you can. You don’t need to feel guilty for what you need.

Know yourself.This means knowing your innermost thoughts, beliefs, feelings, choices, and experiences. It also means knowing and connecting with your needs, feelings and physical sensations. Without knowing your true self, you can’t really know your limits and needs, i.e., your boundaries. This will also help you to more clearly define your needs when boundaries are crossed.
Be flexible.Having healthy boundaries doesn’t mean rigidly saying no to everything. Nor does it mean cocooning yourself from others. We are constantly growing, learning and evolving as human beings.
Stay out of judgment.Practice having healthy compassion for others without the need to “fix” them.
Let go of judgment about yourself.Easier said than done, but start practicing compassion and acceptance. When you can accept yourself for who you are, there is less need to hide your true self. A more positive inner world can help you feel safe with vulnerability. Connect with the voice of someone loving and nurturing and imagine what he or she would say to you in this moment instead.
Accept the truth in what others say and leave the rest.Feel what you feel and don’t take responsibility for or take on the emotions of others. Give back their feelings, thoughts and expectations.
Practice openness.Be willing to listen to others about how your behavior impacts them.
Watch out for black and white thinking.Do you have difficulty saying no? Try, “let me think about it and get back to you.” Do you have to do x, y, or z or else? Try to find the middle ground.
Pay attention to activities and people who drain you and those who energize you.Protect yourself by saying no to those who drain you or finding ways to reduce them through delegating, setting limits, or lowering perfectionistic standards. Add more energizing activities to your day instead.
Pause.When you feel the urge to (insert compulsion here), stop and check in with yourself. What are you feeling? Can you allow that feeling to be present without acting on it for the moment? What do you need? Dig deep and see what comes up for you. Take five or 10 deep breaths if need be, focusing on exhaling completely.
Get clear on what you value and desire.What do you really want or long for? What is truly important to you in your life? Get clear on your most important values. Use your values to guide your decisions vs. others’ opinions or expectations. Use this to help you find what is missing from your life.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> *Sam should focus on changing his own behavior. If he changes, his wife is likely to, as well. This is a position of freedom for Sam: he does not have to wait for his wife to change. His current emotional dependence on her frustrates him greatly.
> *
> My biggest concern with all the boundary talk is that it seems like a defensive posture, rather than an open, inviting posture. I think relationships function better with an attitude of "Help me understand," rather than "Don't do that!" One invites communication, and one very likely shuts it down.
> 
> It seems to me that both Sam and his wife expect each other to be the leader. They each prefer to be the responder.
> 
> If Sam can become the leader, at least initially, his wife will likely respond to his positive changes. Expecting her to initiate positive change will prove disappointing for Sam.
> 
> Learning to not take her words and actions personally could prove freeing for him.


Sam will become the leader when he decides what he is no longer willing to accept. You are correct that he needs to change himself and he already knows he can't take it anymore. He's done. All that is left is him choosing to say "I'm done with this behavior"

I call that a natural consequence of her treatment of him for so long. She now can either choose to join him in his new space or not. But he's done with it.

Now will he have the courage to enact that... I don't know. But one thing I do know... this is not about him conditioning himself to accept more poor behavior from her, that would be unwise.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> One issue I see as an on going issue with them is when S2 wants him near and when he does, she is prickly.
> 
> So, one boundary issue I would work on if I were him would be to target this push pull he's getting.
> 
> So lets say she's been after him to talk to her and he keeps trying and trying and every single time she is a barbed porcupine. If I were in his shoes, ESPECIALLY if he is kind, considerate, has already attempted hearing her and being warm, I would say something to the effect of "It is an extremely unpleasant experience following invitations to heart connect through talking, bring my whole heart to the conversation, then find myself running into the barbs of your porcupine attitude, so when you choose to put the porcupine quills away, I will be back to talk. Until then I will not be subjecting myself to this chronic pain. I'm choosing to not live like that any longer, no one should have to."
> 
> I think this is likely to get a defensive reaction, as it sounds like whining, and blaming. Not leadership.
> 
> I think something like, "I am not sure how to communicate with you in a way that makes you feel comfortable talking to me. I am open to learning," would feel more inviting.
> 
> Then anytime after that if she invites to talk and he KNOWS he is in the clear on his care for her and the quills come out again, he can simply say "I'm not talking to porcupine quills" and hit that truth drum regular until the behavior disappears. She is CHOOSING those quills and she can choose to lay them down.
> 
> I think this sounds judgmental, and again, is likely to get a defensive response, or outright rejection. "You seem hurt or fearful. Would you like to talk about it?" might invite more open-hearted sharing.
> 
> Now if she wants to come back around and tell him .... "ok, I hear you, but those quills are there because of xyz", then they can get to the bottom of xyz, but he does not have to live in chronic pain like that. He can work on detachment and self fulfillment, which I feel both will help to mitigate "some" of the impact of her actions, but it's not going to eliminate all of it and at the end of the day it still has to be addressed. Taking it too far into acceptance is the beginning of conditioning yourself to accept abusive attitudes, words, deeds and that can expand too far. So part of this is Sam recognizing how much he can legitimately take and how much he can't then make it known what he will and will not accept. This push pull is one of the MAIN issues between the two of them.
> 
> I think it is unlikely that Sam is the only person with pain in the marriage. It may not be fair, but I think it will be on him to break the ice in the most inviting, least threatening way possible.
> 
> He may have more self assessment on his contribution to the push pull, but sometimes the boundary will serve to give him space to breathe and heal, before he has everything figured out. He needs a break, that much is crystal clear to me. Its very telling to me that his daughter was proud of him for moving out and standing up to his wife. She does not like how her mother treats him. And she is boots on the ground.
> 
> Or she is simply more sympathetic to him. Either way, blaming her mother instead of seeking to understand her and opening up communication with her is unlikely to move the marriage forward.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sam will become the leader when he decides what he is no longer willing to accept. You are correct that he needs to change himself and he already knows he can't take it anymore. He's done. All that is left is him choosing to say "I'm done with this behavior"
> 
> I call that a natural consequence of her treatment of him for so long. She now can either choose to join him in his new space or not. But he's done with it.
> 
> Now will he have the courage to enact that... I don't know. But one thing I do know... this is not about him conditioning himself to accept more poor behavior from her, that would be unwise.


I think if he would change his own behavior, and really, his mindset, hers would naturally change, too.

There is a lot of power in positive unilateral change.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@jld I like the way you worded those. I'm just not sure they will work in this situation. She seems to be all over the place and a bit unpredictable, moving goal posts. If she is, standing up for what he will and will not accept is not whining, it is declaring... enough! He may see his way past it and that would be great, but it sounds like he has his belly full and he is definitely seeking relief. He doesn't have to tolerate that kind of attitude. She can learn to speak to him about her issues/pain without contempt. I do with my H. The learning is not all on him. It is also on her. If he stands up to her approach it pushes to need to learn a different approach back onto her, which is the one doing the push pull to begin with. She needs to learn to not push pull and speak to her husband without contempt. If he never pushes that responsibility back onto her she will never learn to choose differently, thus I disagree with your assessment of what is needed here. He is looking for a permanent change, therefore, she will need to learn a different way. She cannot do that with your approach because Sam is taking all the learning onto himself. He truly does need to let her hit a boundary so that she is forced to learn a different behavior in order to remain in this relationship with him. That is the ONLY permanent relief he is going to find. She either chooses to be willing and learns different or he goes and finds someone else who already knows not to treat him like that. I believe that is where this situation has come to. His change is learning what he will no longer tolerate in her OR someone new. THAT is the change that is permanent. Unfortunately.... his wife will have to learn new behaviors since they didn't start out like that. But, that's ok, it's good for her. Lets see how wise she is. If he chooses that route, he is fixing to find out how devoted she is. Which is also a good thing. If she commits, then he will know, she is truly devoted. If she doesn't, he will find out she wasn't and he can let her go. I'm all for empathy and care/listening, bringing whole heart. But for me, that approach has some serious limits. You don't just give those things away to just any person or any type of behavior. That's where I stand on it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think if he would change his own behavior, and really, his mindset, hers would naturally change, too.
> 
> There is a lot of power in positive unilateral change.


I agree to a point, but it will still leave issues laying on the table unaddressed.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Its probably safe to say we can move Sam's issues on over to his thread now.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> @jld I like the way you worded those. I'm just not sure they will work in this situation. She seems to be all over the place and a bit unpredictable, moving goal posts. If she is, standing up for what he will and will not accept is not whining, it is declaring... enough! He may see his way past it and that would be great, but it sounds like he has his belly full and he is definitely seeking relief. He doesn't have to tolerate that kind of attitude. She can learn to speak to him about her issues/pain without contempt. I do with my H. The learning is not all on him. It is also on her. If he stands up to her approach it pushes to need to learn a different approach back onto her, which is the one doing the push pull to begin with. She needs to learn to not push pull and speak to her husband with contempt. If he never pushes that responsibility back onto her she will never learn to choose differently, thus I disagree with your assessment of what is needed here. He is looking for a permanent change, therefore, she will need to learn a different way. She cannot do that with your approach because Sam is taking all the learning onto himself. He truly does need to let her hit a boundary so that she is forced to learn a different behavior in order to remain in this relationship with him. That is the ONLY permanent relief he is going to find. She either chooses to be willing and learns different or he goes and finds someone else who already knows not to treat him like that. I believe that is where this situation has come to. His change is learning what he will no longer tolerate in her OR someone new. THAT is the change that is permanent. Unfortunately.... his wife will have to learn new behaviors since they didn't start out like that. But, that's ok, it's good for her. Lets see how wise she is. If he chooses that route, he is fixing to find out how devoted she is. Which is also a good thing. If she commits, then he will know, she is truly devoted. If she doesn't, he will find out she wasn't and he can let her go. I'm all for empathy and care/listening, bringing whole heart. But for me, that approach has some serious limits. You don't just give those things away to just any person or any type of behavior. That's where I stand on it.


I do think we have two fundamentally different approaches, Blossom. That is why it is good to discuss them thoroughly. It allows Sam a chance to see which one might work better with his wife.

Some women, like perhaps you and GI and NS, may prefer a very direct, in your face, "Stop it now, Woman, or I am leaving!" approach. That may feel more comfortable to you. It may turn some women on, too. They may see it as strength in a man. 

To me, it feels like weakness. Great emotional weakness. I would think, "Wow. No curiosity. No belief in his ability to understand me. No emotional strength. Just quits when I won't, or cannot, carry him."

See how two different women can have a completely different reaction to the same approach?


----------



## jld

Just saw your last post. Will move over to his thread.

Maybe you want to link it for other folks?


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I think if he would change his own behavior, and really, his mindset, hers would naturally change, too.
> 
> There is a lot of power in positive unilateral change.


That is what boundary setting IS.


----------



## naiveonedave

@jld - enforcing boundaries is the opposite of whining. It is exactly like being in charge. It is Sam saying, it is this way or you will be hitting the highway. Very strong leadership of poor attitude performers tends to be like this...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I do think we have two fundamentally different approaches, Blossom. That is why it is good to discuss them thoroughly. It allows Sam a chance to see which one might work better with his wife.
> 
> Some women, like perhaps you and GI and NS, may prefer a very direct, in your face, "Stop it now, Woman, or I am leaving!" approach. That may feel more comfortable to you. It may turn some women on, too. They may see it as strength in a man.
> 
> To me, it feels like weakness. Great emotional weakness. I would think, "Wow. No curiosity. No belief in his ability to understand me. No emotional strength. Just quits when I won't, or cannot, carry him."
> 
> See how two different women can have a completely different reaction to the same approach?


I see that between us. Yet, the boundary is Sam's. What can he stomach. At that point when his belly is full, its not going to matter what she thinks of it. Its too easy to find a woman who takes responsibility for herself. If he is getting tired, he may not care to slog that hill anymore. He has that right and he is no less of a man for it, he just recognizes what hill is isn't willing to die on. If she chose to make it that difficult for him... natural consequence.

Lets move this to his thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...n/314242-never-ending-saga-getting-worse.html


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> That is what boundary setting IS.


I think we define positive differently, NS.

Would you like to give an example of a boundary you would like him to set?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think we define positive differently, NS.
> 
> Would you like to give an example of a boundary you would like him to set?


On his thread please

We need to be addressing Sam


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> @jld - enforcing boundaries is the opposite of whining. It is exactly like being in charge. It is Sam saying, it is this way or you will be hitting the highway. Very strong leadership of poor attitude performers tends to be like this...


To me it looks defensive and protective, Dave. I don't see strength in it. 

What could seem strong is, "I would like to try to understand you. I don't think I have done a good job of it, or I would not be in the situation I am. How do you think I could improve, wife? What am I doing/not doing that has hurt you?" That approach takes courage and emotional strength. Not for the faint of heart.

If after all that, things still are not working for them, he could say, "I feel like I have failed you. I just cannot seem to meet your needs. I want the best for you, and I think that cannot happen with me in the picture. I think it is time for us to pursue a fair, amicable divorce. Please know I will always treasure the life we shared, and will always hope the best for you." That would be a way to release her with love and appreciation. Should make it easier for both of them to heal.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> To me it looks defensive and protective, Dave. I don't see strength in it.
> 
> What could seem strong is, "I would like to try to understand you. I don't think I have done a good job of it, or I would not be in the situation I am. How do you think I could improve, wife? What am I doing/not doing that has hurt you?" That approach takes courage and emotional strength. Not for the faint of heart.
> 
> If after all that, things still are not working for them, he could say, "I feel like I have failed you. I just cannot seem to meet your needs. I want the best for you, and I think that cannot happen with me in the picture. I think it is time for us to pursue a fair, amicable divorce. Please know I will always treasure the life we shared, and will always hope the best for you." That would be a way to release her with love and appreciation. Should make it easier for both of them to heal.


He is still recognizing HIS limit which is where the leadership is. He is captain of his ship and he can choose what waters he puts it in. The rest is just different styles of communicating that.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> He is still recognizing HIS limit which is where the leadership is. He is captain of his ship and he can choose what waters he puts it in. The rest is just different styles of communicating that.


Did you want to move this last exchange to his thread?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Did you want to move this last exchange to his thread?


Yes Ma'am, that would be great


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> To me it looks defensive and protective, Dave. I don't see strength in it.
> 
> What could seem strong is, "I would like to try to understand you. I don't think I have done a good job of it, or I would not be in the situation I am. How do you think I could improve, wife? What am I doing/not doing that has hurt you?" That approach takes courage and emotional strength. Not for the faint of heart.
> 
> If after all that, things still are not working for them, he could say, "I feel like I have failed you. I just cannot seem to meet your needs. I want the best for you, and I think that cannot happen with me in the picture. I think it is time for us to pursue a fair, amicable divorce. Please know I will always treasure the life we shared, and will always hope the best for you." That would be a way to release her with love and appreciation. Should make it easier for both of them to heal.


Here is the problem @jld. He is done. He is communicating this by setting and enforcing boundaries. That IS leadership. Your approach is basically back to your normal line of thinking, that woman is NEVER in the wrong. In this case, since he is done, due to her actions, HE needs to save himself from her. Applying boundaries is a way to lead her to where he can accept her and her behavior...


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> Here is the problem @jld. He is done. He is communicating this by setting and enforcing boundaries. That IS leadership. Your approach is basically back to your normal line of thinking, that woman is NEVER in the wrong. In this case, since he is done, due to her actions, HE needs to save himself from her. Applying boundaries is a way to lead her to where he can accept her and her behavior...


Dave, can you post this on the other thread, please?


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> Some women, like perhaps you and GI and NS, may prefer a very direct, in your face, "Stop it now, Woman, or I am leaving!" approach. That may feel more comfortable to you. It may turn some women on, too. They may see it as strength in a man.


No. Go back and re-read all my posts in this thread. I was pretty clear, I think, that she needs to be shown compassion and understanding.

ETA: I don't think your approach is wrong, jld, just incomplete.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Where is Sam's thread, please.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> I see that between us. Yet, the boundary is Sam's. What can he stomach. At that point when his belly is full, its not going to matter what she thinks of it. Its too easy to find a woman who takes responsibility for herself. If he is getting tired, he may not care to slog that hill anymore. He has that right and he is no less of a man for it, he just recognizes what hill is isn't willing to die on. If she chose to make it that difficult for him... natural consequence.
> 
> Lets move this to his thread.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...n/314242-never-ending-saga-getting-worse.html





NobodySpecial said:


> Where is Sam's thread, please.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Blossom, when I say boundary, I mean something like, "If you do not hug me on your own at least once a day, I will not speak to you until the next day." This would be in reference to Sam's frustration with his wife's lack of initiation. I just do not think this sort of thing is healthy.


That's an ultimatum, not a boundary.

A boundary would be "You will not hug me when I don't want to be hugged."

It's not telling someone what they must do, it's telling them how you will tolerate being treated.

In your case, I would not frame what you said in terms of a boundary, but a request with emotional transparency:

"When I don't get hugged by you every day I feel ..." And leave it at that. Because it's a request. Not a boundary.

If you want to make it an ultimatum, because for you it's a deal breaker, I would say "For me to stay married I need to get hugged by my spouse every day."

Understand?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I certainly understand leaving a relationship due to physical aggression. But to my knowledge, there has not been any physical aggression in Sam's marriage. Yet many want him to institute boundaries.
> 
> Could you give a realistic example of a boundary you would like Sam to set?


"I won't tolerate being ignored for days on end without being told why, or the reason being that I didn't do exactly what you wanted me to do."


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> That's an ultimatum, not a boundary.
> 
> A boundary would be "You will not hug me when I don't want to be hugged."
> 
> It's not telling someone what they must do, it's telling them how you will tolerate being treated.
> 
> In your case, I would not frame what you said in terms of a boundary, but a request with emotional transparency:
> 
> "When I don't get hugged by you every day I feel ..." And leave it at that. Because it's a request. Not a boundary.
> 
> If you want to make it an ultimatum, because for you it's a deal breaker, I would say "For me to stay married I need to get hugged by my spouse every day."
> 
> Understand?


Are you sure that last one is not a boundary?

Lol, this is all confusing.

To me, ultimatum is, "Hug me or I am leaving for the rest of the night."

None of this sounds as effective to me as "Help me understand," or "How can I help?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Are you sure that last one is not a boundary?
> 
> Lol, this is all confusing.
> 
> To me, ultimatum is, "Hug me or I am leaving for the rest of the night."
> 
> None of this sounds as effective to me as "Help me understand," or "How can I help?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That last one is a boundary.

And I wouldn't use any of them until I asked something that approached "help me understand." But in Sam's case, I would likely never say "How can I help?"

Because what she is doing is emotional terrorism and borderline abusive. You don't ask abusers how you can help them abuse you.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> "I won't tolerate being ignored for days on end without being told why, or the reason being that I didn't do exactly what you wanted me to do."


How is he not going to tolerate it?

"Dug, I am not going to tolerate being last priority in the evening's activities.

Except I am. And I will. I'll be mad for a little bit and then I will capitulate as soon as you touch me. Because I really want to be close to you. And I miss you."

Idk. I am not sure how meaningful a response would be if it came from coercion and not from a spouse's own spirit. I wonder how long it would last, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> How is he not going to tolerate it?
> 
> "Dug, I am not going to tolerate being last priority in the evening's activities.
> 
> Except I am. And I will. I'll be mad for a little bit and then I will capitulate as soon as you touch me. Because I really want to be close to you. And I miss you."
> 
> Idk. I am not sure how meaningful a response would be if it came from coercion and not from a spouse's own spirit. I wonder how long it would last, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you have weak boundaries and low expectations of your spouse.

That's the problem, not having boundaries to begin with.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

They both do.... question is ... will they let it go so far that one of them hits their limit and we are talking to them on how to fix it like we are talking to Sam, because trust me.... you both have limits and to ignore them puts your emotional health and marriage at risk.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> So you have weak boundaries and low expectations of your spouse.
> 
> That's the problem, not having boundaries to begin with.


I would not feel comfortable trying to force something. I think that has to come from his spirit to be meaningful.

We have both been told we are low maintenance, though. And AP told me Dug and I have the same boundaries, which is why we do not understand all the emphasis on them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> "I won't tolerate being ignored for days on end without being told why, or the reason being that I didn't do exactly what you wanted me to do."


This is not a great example because it is not enforceable. Better would be I am not going to tolerate being berated for not doing things precisely the way you think I should. When you berate me, I will walk away and leave the room.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> This is not a great example because it is not enforceable. Better would be I am not going to tolerate being berated for not doing things precisely the way you think I should. When you berate me, I will walk away and leave the room.


What if they follow you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> This is not a great example because it is not enforceable. Better would be I am not going to tolerate being berated for not doing things precisely the way you think I should. When you berate me, I will walk away and leave the room.


I think it is totally enforceable.

Here's the sequence:
#1 "Wife, what's the problem? Here's your chance to communicate."
#2 Walk away/go do something else fun/totally ignore her in response if she refuses, or makes it about not obeying her about something minor. With a simple "No."
#3 Escalate as needed.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> What if they follow you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Um? That would make them a complete jerk. But I would just leave.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I would not feel comfortable trying to force something. I think that has to come from his spirit to be meaningful.
> 
> We have both been told we are low maintenance, though. And AP told me Dug and I have the same boundaries, which is why we do not understand all the emphasis on them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you and Dug have the same basic boundaries. No cheating, honesty, that kind of thing.

However I think you have radically different expectations from one another, and radically different tolerances for behaviour from one another.

Just look at your exchange: I need X and will tell you because I'm transparent. He acknowledges but doesn't deliver. You persue him until you get a small token of what you need. He blames himself but doesn't change. You don't blame yourself but then wring your hands about it.

Go back to step one.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Um? That would make them a complete jerk. But I would just leave.


I remember a girl hitting on me that I wasn't interested in so I walked into the men's bathroom.

She followed me and continued to talk to me and hit on me as I'm standing there at the urinal.

I thought that took guts, actually.

But I know that's not what you're talking about. It just reminded me, and I needed a pleasant reminder today.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I think it is totally enforceable.
> 
> Here's the sequence:
> #1 "Wife, what's the problem? Here's your chance to communicate."
> #2 Walk away/go do something else fun/totally ignore her in response if she refuses, or makes it about not obeying her about something minor. With a simple "No."
> #3 Escalate as needed.


How does escalating help?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Um? That would make them a complete jerk. But I would just leave.


My mom tried to leave the room. My dad just followed her.

My therapist does not advise leaving the room. She said it tends to escalate conflict. She advises talking in a calming voice and being as empathetic as possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## beatricecat

I've been on both sides of this so I can understand where both parties are coming from.

Before we separated one of my favorite things to do for my husband was to cook for him. On the weekend I would make him a big elaborate meal every so often. It would take me hours to cook, and because he ate a ton of meat, it was never really cheap meal either. But I did it for him because he is from South Africa and misses the food from back home, and it was a way for me to show him I cared. But after the meal, he would walk over to the sink, put his plate down, complain about how much of a mess the kitchen is.

With that said though, most of my clothes are vintage so I hand wash them to make sure they don't get damaged or stolen, but my commute to work was crazy and I was exhausted all the time so I had laundry and art supplies all over the apartment normally. And he hated it.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I think you and Dug have the same basic boundaries. No cheating, honesty, that kind of thing.
> 
> However I think you have radically different expectations from one another, and radically different tolerances for behaviour from one another.
> 
> Just look at your exchange: I need X and will tell you because I'm transparent. He acknowledges but doesn't deliver. You persue him until you get a small token of what you need. He blames himself but doesn't change. You don't blame yourself but then wring your hands about it.
> 
> Go back to step one.


Step one?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> How does escalating help?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's the thing about boundaries.

You only need to enforce or reinforce them if they get crossed. That's why in the beginning of a relationship, there frequently isn't an issue -- we assume we share common boundaries, but have no actual data to support this. So you live in laughter and light and sex and it's good.

Then one person does something that crosses a boundary. 

Usually this person knows full well that there's a boundary there if it's something obvious. Like cheating, or violence, or stuff like that.

But what usually happens is that it doesn't come out of the blue. Usually, there's a dynamic in play that causes an escalation of insensitivity or crappy behaviour on both sides until a line gets crossed.

And at that point, _that's_ when the boundary talk comes out. It's like Jean-luc Picard saying "The line must be drawn here!"

Because what is now happening is that the relationship is at risk. 

The one that has had the boundary crossed needs to express that they're going to exit or seriously damage the relationship if this continues.

The one that crossed the boundary needs to hear that, and back away, or risk the relationship or chronic damage to it.

Expressing a boundary in effect is offering a choice: "I will go with you this far and no further."

The escalating that I would speak of in terms of this kind of P-A abusive toxic behaviour (if you don't do as I say I'm going to put you through days of no speaking or continual abuse) would be to withdraw from the relationship.

A graduated withdrawl: at first a temporary one, then a longer one, and then a final termination of the relationship. With communication along the way.

You can only give someone so many chances before you need to call the ball.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Step one?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need attention, Dug doesn't deliver, you get upset, he takes the blame, nothing changes, you chase him until you get just enough to get off his back and settle down...

Do you not see it?


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> My mom tried to leave the room. My dad just followed her.
> 
> My therapist does not advise leaving the room. She said it tends to escalate conflict. She advises talking in a calming voice and being as empathetic as possible.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't agree with your therapist.


----------



## jld

Hmm. Withdrawing from the relationship is not what I think of when I think of "escalating."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Hmm. Withdrawing from the relationship is not what I think of when I think of "escalating."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


An escalated withdrawl. Because if he thinks he's awesome, the worst thing in the world that he could do to her is deny her himself.

Or it could be an escalation in intolerance for ****ty behaviour. Or an escalation in his behaviour that causes her alarm. Everybody's got a different style. It depends on the circumstance.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> My mom tried to leave the room. My dad just followed her.
> 
> My therapist does not advise leaving the room. She said it tends to escalate conflict. She advises talking in a calming voice and being as empathetic as possible.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My therapist says that's step one.

Leaving the room is step two.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> You need attention, Dug doesn't deliver, you get upset, he takes the blame, nothing changes, you chase him until you get just enough to get off his back and settle down...
> 
> Do you not see it?


Yes. It may not be exactly that, but the idea is there.

Dug is a strong T and a strong P. I lean towards F and, while not the strongest J, am pretty J nonetheless.

Dug is not going to change, Marduk. He has improved in some areas over the years, like procrastinating less, but the basic P is always going to be there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Here's the thing about boundaries.
> 
> You only need to enforce or reinforce them if they get crossed. That's why in the beginning of a relationship, there frequently isn't an issue -- we assume we share common boundaries, but have no actual data to support this. So you live in laughter and light and sex and it's good.
> 
> Then one person does something that crosses a boundary.
> 
> Usually this person knows full well that there's a boundary there if it's something obvious. Like cheating, or violence, or stuff like that.
> 
> But what usually happens is that it doesn't come out of the blue. Usually, there's a dynamic in play that causes an escalation of insensitivity or crappy behaviour on both sides until a line gets crossed.
> 
> And at that point, _that's_ when the boundary talk comes out. It's like Jean-luc Picard saying "The line must be drawn here!"
> 
> Because what is now happening is that the relationship is at risk.
> 
> The one that has had the boundary crossed needs to express that they're going to exit or seriously damage the relationship if this continues.


So there is a lot that can be done with a boundary before we pull out exit or damage the relationship. Risk damaging the relationship is terminology I can get with.

It also needn't be aggressive.



> The one that crossed the boundary needs to hear that, and back away, or risk the relationship or chronic damage to it.
> 
> Expressing a boundary in effect is offering a choice: "I will go with you this far and no further."
> 
> The escalating that I would speak of in terms of this kind of P-A abusive toxic behaviour (if you don't do as I say I'm going to put you through days of no speaking or continual abuse) would be to withdraw from the relationship.


Withdraw from the situation is the place to start. The BEST outcome is for these actions to stimulate a desired reaction from your partner. 



> A graduated withdrawl: at first a temporary one, then a longer one, and then a final termination of the relationship. With communication along the way.


Maybe that is what you mean here?



> You can only give someone so many chances before you need to call the ball.


So one problem is this chances thing. If you have let bad behavior go on for years, you have made setting boundaries HARDER not been more effective at curbing the non-negotiable behavior. Chances are not useful.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> My therapist says that's step one.
> 
> Leaving the room is step two.


It obviously did not work for my mother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> It obviously did not work for my mother.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Step 3. Leave the house.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> An escalated withdrawl. Because if he thinks he's awesome, the worst thing in the world that he could do to her is deny her himself.
> 
> Or it could be an escalation in intolerance for ****ty behaviour. Or an escalation in his behaviour that causes her alarm. Everybody's got a different style. It depends on the circumstance.


I think she would need to think he is awesome for his withdrawal to be an issue. 

She did cry when Sam left that time, though, so she surely loves him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Yes. It may not be exactly that, but the idea is there.
> 
> Dug is a strong T and a strong P. I lean towards F and, while not the strongest J, am pretty J nonetheless.
> 
> Dug is not going to change, Marduk. He has improved in some areas over the years, like procrastinating less, but the basic P is always going to be there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is not going to change.

And yet you very much want him to.

And you're willing to assign him blame, and he is willing to accept it.

And nothing changes.

What's the point of this dance, JLD?

You should either accept him or leave him. And he should stop taking accountability to improve when he's never going to change.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I think she would need to think he is awesome for his withdrawal to be an issue.
> 
> She did cry when Sam left that time, though, so she surely loves him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is the only reason I've been on Sam to work on this.

Otherwise, I'd be advising him to leave her.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Step 3. Leave the house.


Step 4. Go to the strippers.

I should have thought of that when an ex was following me driving me around refusing to leave me alone.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Step 3. Leave the house.


You did not know my dad.

Really, my therapist's advice would have been so good for my mom. But my mom never could have done it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I think she would need to think he is awesome for his withdrawal to be an issue.
> 
> She did cry when Sam left that time, though, so she surely loves him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Crying <> love. That is just whacky. It could have been anything from stress over the situation, worry over her future. Anything.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> You did not know my dad.


Look if you want advice on how to set "boundaries" with an abuser, then you are asking the wrong person. If your father had control issues, and would not let her leave the house, then he was abusive, plain and simple.


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe that is what you mean here?


Yes.



> So one problem is this chances thing. If you have let bad behavior go on for years, you have made setting boundaries HARDER not been more effective at curbing the non-negotiable behavior. Chances are not useful.


Yup, if you let your boundaries be crossed more than once, they're not boundaries any more. 

You get what you tolerate.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> That is the only reason I've been on Sam to work on this.
> 
> Otherwise, I'd be advising him to leave her.


I don't think he is ready.

That is the step that can change things, though. Sometimes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Look if you want advice on how to set "boundaries" with an abuser, then you are asking the wrong person. If your father had control issues, and would not let her leave the house, then he was abusive, plain and simple.


Has been known for a long time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Crying <> love. That is just whacky. It could have been anything from stress over the situation, worry over her future. Anything.


Could be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Has been known for a long time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So in what way is that a useful example to the conversation?


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Step 4. Go to the strippers.
> 
> I should have thought of that when an ex was following me driving me around refusing to leave me alone.


I need a boundary crossed.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> He is not going to change.
> 
> And yet you very much want him to.
> 
> And you're willing to assign him blame, and he is willing to accept it.
> 
> And nothing changes.
> 
> What's the point of this dance, JLD?
> 
> You should either accept him or leave him. And he should stop taking accountability to improve when he's never going to change.


Ouch.

Ouch, ouch, ouch.


_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> So in what way is that a useful example to the conversation?


It was just a comment. He was indeed abusive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Ouch.
> 
> Ouch, ouch, ouch.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I sincerely intend you or Dug no harm.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I sincerely intend you or Dug no harm.


I know. 

He will just laugh when he reads all this. It is that T thing.

But as an F, it is painful to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Hello, far, you little lurker, you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I know.
> 
> He will just laugh when he reads all this. It is that T thing.
> 
> But as an F, it is painful to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let me ask you this: can you accept him the way he is without it continually causing you pain?


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Let me ask you this: can you accept him the way he is without it continually causing you pain?


Yes. 

A few years ago, maybe the fall of 2011 or 2012, I started saying to myself, "That's just how he is." Every time I would start getting frustrated, I repeated it. 

And most of the time our relationship is really good. It is very easy.

But here on TAM, I think I got my hopes up that things could be different. But they can't be. 

I think there is great freedom in accepting reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Yes.
> 
> A few years ago, maybe the fall of 2011 or 2012, I started saying to myself, "That's just how he is." Every time I would start getting frustrated, I repeated it.
> 
> And most of the time our relationship is really good. It is very easy.
> 
> But here on TAM, I think I got my hopes up that things could be different. But they can't be.
> 
> I think there is great freedom in accepting reality.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A great freedom for both of you.

What you have is good. Let it be good. Let it be enough.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Hello, far, you little lurker, you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Moving and shaking today. 

In the waiting room of a vet hospital, selling.

Oh hey, this isn't GIG... Nobody is going to know what the hell I am talking about... lol

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> A great freedom for both of you.
> 
> What you have is good. Let it be good. Let it be enough.



UNLESS, it crosses an abusive line on emotional neglect for you jld


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> UNLESS, it crosses an abusive line on emotional neglect for you jld


I'm pretty sure that Dug wouldn't do that.

I don't think he pays enough attention to her or considers her feelings as much as she would like.

But I think he's a decent guy who can be clueless and wrapped up in himself and not pay attention to other people.

In other words, an engineer.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sounds like my ex. The emotional neglect ended up getting to me. 

Just saying it can happen. Just be careful.


----------



## ButtPunch

marduk said:


> but i think he's a decent guy who can be clueless and wrapped up in himself and not pay attention to other people.
> 
> In other words, an *engineer*.


not cool!


----------



## farsidejunky

ButtPunch said:


> not cool!


Yet not dissimilar...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

For the record... My ex wasnt an engineer, so I don't think that has anything to do with it.

My current H is an INTP like Dug and is very attentive to me, so again.. just doesn't resonate for me that its because of that. 

I think my bottom line for both of you jld and Dug is I don't want to see either of you condition yourselves to receive too much of any severe behavior from the other one. My hope is it stops WAY short of that. I have concerns for both of you, even if I push and challenge from time to time, its where my heart is. 


I get physically ill thinking of anyone conditioning themselves to accept abuse. I just pray neither of you are in that position now or in the future.


----------



## Duguesclin

Blossom, we are OK. Do not lose sleep over us.

JLD is very intense. She is a single issue person and she tends to demand the same from me.

Now, if I would have been as intense or single issue focused as she is, she may have been very satisfied. However having 2 intense people together interested in the same thing is impossible to get. Therefore they would clash.

The reason our marriage is doing well is because we are compatible but not the same. It obviously comes with some frustration, but "c'est la vie". Better this way than fighting every day.


----------



## soccermom2three

jld said:


> I would not feel comfortable trying to force something. I think that has to come from his spirit to be meaningful.
> 
> We have both been told we are low maintenance, though. And AP told me Dug and I have the same boundaries, which is why we do not understand all the emphasis on them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


JLD, I think this is the same with me and my husband. Low maintenance and same boundaries. We are also on the same page regarding the type of marriage we want. I think it can cause a lot problems when a couple can't agree on what they want from marriage. Do they want to be lovers? Just friends? Just exist for the kids sake?


----------



## jld

soccermom2three said:


> JLD, I think this is the same with me and my husband. Low maintenance and same boundaries. We are also on the same page regarding the type of marriage we want. I think it can cause a lot problems when a couple can't agree on what they want from marriage. Do they want to be lovers? Just friends? Just exist for the kids sake?


I was thinking about you recently, soccermom. You said once that you felt lonely in your marriage, taken for granted. And when you talked to your husband about it, he made some changes. Is that right?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Duguesclin said:


> Blossom, we are OK. Do not lose sleep over us.
> 
> JLD is very intense. She is a single issue person and she tends to demand the same from me.
> 
> Now, if I would have been as intense or single issue focused as she is, she may have been very satisfied. However having 2 intense people together interested in the same thing is impossible to get. Therefore they would clash.
> 
> The reason our marriage is doing well is because we are compatible but not the same. It obviously comes with some frustration, but "c'est la vie". Better this way than fighting every day.


Well, I'm glad. 

What was sad about our rough time is we've been deeply compatible since day one, but he hit total overwhelm because he went from very low responsibility prior to meeting me, to a wife who has PTSD from abuse and almost died in childbirth, a premie child, three houses and two horses over night. He was already on a sharp learning curve prior to our child arriving and being a father of a premie sent him over the edge. I am grateful he strengthened and recovered, so I hear you when you say the frustration from slight differences is better than fighting everyday since I've been in both. I'll talk the calm we have now, thats for sure.


----------



## soccermom2three

Yes, short version: the first 5 years of our marriage it was like we were two roommates then the kids came and the focus changes. We were so busy but about 5 years ago the kids were all in school and becoming independent and I started thinking I didn't want to be that couple when all the kids leave they have nothing in common and really don't love each other anymore. 3 and 1/2 years ago I started a conversation with my husband about what I wanted in our marriage and ask if he wanted the same thing. He did and we talked for hours. I think it really got us on the right path.


----------



## jld

soccermom2three said:


> Yes, short version: the first 5 years of our marriage it was like we were two roommates then the kids came and the focus changes. We were so busy but about 5 years ago the kids were all in school and becoming independent and I started thinking *I didn't want to be that couple when all the kids leave they have nothing in common and really don't love each other anymore*. 3 and 1/2 years ago I started a conversation with my husband about what I wanted in our marriage and ask if he wanted the same thing. He did and we talked for hours. I think it really got us on the right path.


Ms. GP made a similar comment in a letter she wrote to her husband. He posted it on his thread. The honesty of that letter made quite an impression on me. 

I am glad to hear that talk with your husband changed things, soccermom.  Was it ultimately just a question of opening up communication?


----------



## Duguesclin

marduk said:


> I think you and Dug have the same basic boundaries. No cheating, honesty, that kind of thing.
> 
> However I think you have radically different expectations from one another, and radically different tolerances for behaviour from one another.
> 
> Just look at your exchange: I need X and will tell you because I'm transparent. He acknowledges but doesn't deliver. You persue him until you get a small token of what you need. He blames himself but doesn't change. You don't blame yourself but then wring your hands about it.
> 
> Go back to step one.


We are not in a 50/50 relationship. I am willing to take responsibility for the success of this marriage. Therefore it is normal that expectations are very different.

But you also need to look at personalities. JLD likes to reference the MBTI. It is a great illustrator of our differences. I am a P. Therefore I am flexible and do not get bent out of shape if I am not perfect. It did not bother me not to have an A in school. It mattered very much to JLD. As a result she has the tendency to not try if she is not sure to excel. I, on the other hand, am willing to try, regardless of the outcome.

So when JLD is asking for X, she expects to receive it. For me, it is good enough to try.

I believe our relationship is doing well. Is it perfect, of course not. We obviously have our conflicts. But believing JLD will be totally happy because I somehow do exactly what she wants, the way she wants it, would be very short sighted.

I am good to her like she is good to me. Being like her is not what I need like being like me is not what she needs.

We need to keep an open conversation. It just happens to be on a public forum right now. Not something I imagined we would do, but so be it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Duguesclin said:


> We are not in a 50/50 relationship. I am willing to take responsibility for the success of this marriage. Therefore it is normal that expectations are very different.
> 
> But you also need to look at personalities. JLD likes to reference the MBTI. It is a great illustrator of our differences. I am a P. Therefore I am flexible and do not get bent out of shape if I am not perfect. It did not bother me not to have an A in school. It mattered very much to JLD. As a result she has the tendency to not try if she is not sure to excel. I, on the other hand, am willing to try, regardless of the outcome.
> 
> So when JLD is asking for X, she expects to receive it. For me, it is good enough to try.
> 
> I believe our relationship is doing well. Is it perfect, of course not. We obviously have our conflicts*. But believing JLD will be totally happy because I somehow do exactly what she wants, the way she wants it, would be very short sighted.*
> 
> I am good to her like she is good to me. Being like her is not what I need like being like me is not what she needs.
> 
> We need to keep an open conversation. It just happens to be on a public forum right now. Not something I imagined we would do, but so be it.


 @jld... Sister, don't kill his try with stringent expectations. As strigent as they are, they are still limited. I challenge you to pay attention to how HE attempts to love you. Thats part of hearing his heart. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

And I see the intent behind your posts to soccermom as passive aggressive towards Dug, as his wife, thats not cool.

He may be fully able to let it roll off a ducks back, but it wasn't cool for you to choose to put him in that position even if he can.

Moves like that cost you on some level. I think he deserves an apology for that one.


----------



## jld

But he does not, Blossom. He and I are both fine with what I wrote, and do not see any passive-aggressive anything there. 

What surprises both of us, though, is the idea that Dug needs any kind of protection from me. He is used to my transparency. He says it makes his life easier.

I do agree with you about my expectations limiting my happiness, though. I think that can be a problem with Js. We are more structured, and have at the very least ideas of how we think things should be, if not an outright plan, not only for ourselves, but for others. We try to control our way to happiness. Ps just do what makes them happy as a matter of course. Very freeing.

Dug, you are right to say what you did about not trying to be what I want, when I want it. The details of what I may want at any point during the day are as changeable as my mood. Trying to keep up with that would indeed be exhausting. 

The truth is, Dug, I do not even know exactly what I want sometimes. That is why the communication can be confusing. I only know I don't like what I have in that moment. 

But when I think about it, would I really want something else?

Even though your P drives me crazy sometimes, I am sure overall it is good for me. You have always said you sensed I needed a lot of freedom, and you are right. I don't find the idea of being controlled appealing at all. I want to be loved, nurtured, listened to, and inspired. 

Dug, I feel kind of bad sometimes for how demanding I am. But you say it makes you a better man. I think that is why Js are good for Ps. And I know Ps are good for Js. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Jeez, the guy can't even get a break over his P...



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, its not a lowering of standards per se, but more the idea that being so wrapped up in them causes you to miss his style is what I see.

You are correct, he should do his best to understand you, know you, but expectations for every whim is unrealistic, glad you both see that. 

The exchange appeared to be an attempt to put it in Dug's face, see her husband changed, why aren't you. If yall didnt see it that way, good enough.

Transparency is good, I just wouldn't allow it to be abusive. Same thing with not being available, don't allow it to be abusive. Glad you both are feeling safe right now. Just putting voice to the risky areas.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Jeez, the guy can't even get a break over his P...
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I just read this to Dug. We both laughed. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, its not a lowering of standards per se, but more the idea that being so wrapped up in them causes you to miss his style is what I see.
> 
> You are correct, he should do his best to understand you, know you, but expectations for every whim is unrealistic, glad you both see that.
> 
> The exchange appeared to be an attempt to put it in Dug's face, see her husband changed, why aren't you. If yall didnt see it that way, good enough.
> 
> Transparency is good, I just wouldn't allow it to be abusive. Same thing with not being available, don't allow it to be abusive. Glad you both are feeling safe right now. Just putting voice to the risky areas.


No, Dug did not take any offense to what I said. He was surprised that anyone would. 

I think it is great to share how we all see things. We learn from hearing honest views. But it is important to realize that not everyone is as sensitive as some of us are. For sure, Dug is not.

To Dug, the idea that I could abuse him seems strange. He just does not give me that kind of power over him.

I certainly agree that when we have expectations of people, we risk missing out on just enjoying what they bring to the table. I think that is a real issue for Js.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

Duguesclin said:


> We are not in a 50/50 relationship. I am willing to take responsibility for the success of this marriage. Therefore it is normal that expectations are very different.
> 
> But you also need to look at personalities. JLD likes to reference the MBTI. It is a great illustrator of our differences. I am a P. Therefore I am flexible and do not get bent out of shape if I am not perfect. It did not bother me not to have an A in school. It mattered very much to JLD. As a result she has the tendency to not try if she is not sure to excel. I, on the other hand, am willing to try, regardless of the outcome.
> 
> So when JLD is asking for X, she expects to receive it. *For me, it is good enough to try*.
> 
> I believe our relationship is doing well. Is it perfect, of course not. We obviously have our conflicts. But believing JLD will be totally happy because I somehow do exactly what she wants, the way she wants it, would be very short sighted.
> 
> I am good to her like she is good to me. Being like her is not what I need like being like me is not what she needs.
> 
> We need to keep an open conversation. It just happens to be on a public forum right now. Not something I imagined we would do, but so be it.


Why is it do you think that you you have a hard time succeeding after all this time trying? What would inspire you to success beyond just trying? Do you feel that you continually strive for success, to better yourself for your wife and marriage? Do you feel confident in the dynamic that jld, while she may be unhappy with your lack of success in meeting her needs, will continue be ok with it?


----------



## jld

Thanks for the questions, Sam. Dug will not be on until tonight, but it will be interesting to see his answers.

As for the last, yes, I think he is confident I would never leave him. I just don't think he would ever let it go that far. 

And Dug does not take my emotions personally. He trusts that I will calm down and we will return to homeostasis.

The problem, of course, with being married to someone who does not take my emotions personally is that it makes it hard to get his attention. He assumes everything will be fine, that it will all work itself out. And it usually does. But for the more emotional person in such a relationship, there can be a lot of Sturm und Drang along the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Thanks for the questions, Sam. Dug will not be on until tonight, but it will be interesting to see his answers.
> 
> As for the last, yes, I think he is confident *I would never leave him. *I just don't think he would ever let it go that far.


That is a pretty low bar, doing just enough so someone does not leave. Never been a fan of that approach. 



> And Dug does not take my emotions personally. He trusts that I will calm down and we will return to homeostasis.


Pat, pat. Be a good little girl and be quiet so we can return to the status quo as Dug has defined it. Works for you I guess.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> Thanks for the questions, Sam. Dug will not be on until tonight, but it will be interesting to see his answers.
> 
> As for the last, yes, I think he is confident I would never leave him. I just don't think he would ever let it go that far.
> 
> And Dug does not take my emotions personally. He trusts that I will calm down and we will return to homeostasis.
> 
> The problem, of course, with being married to someone who does not take my emotions personally is that it makes it hard to get his attention. He assumes everything will be fine, that it will all work itself out. And it usually does. But for the more emotional person in such a relationship, there can be a lot of Sturm und Drang along the way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a very complicated dynamic, and one that many women neither desire, nor tolerate indefinitely. It is the very definition of taking for granted, and contrary to what you have consistently expressed, puts you in the power position in this relationship. He is dependent on you being willing to maintain this dynamic.

If he were to change and begin to better meet your needs, things would most likely continue with the only change being you feeling calmer, happier, heard. If you were to change, set expectations, and enforce those expectations, his current mindset of being ok with good enough would have a very negative affect.

Are you afraid that he would not be able to meet your needs more regularly and completely if you stood firmer in your desire to have them met?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> No, Dug did not take any offense to what I said. He was surprised that anyone would.
> 
> I think it is great to share how we all see things. We learn from hearing honest views. But it is important to realize that not everyone is as sensitive as some of us are. For sure, Dug is not.
> 
> To Dug, the idea that I could abuse him seems strange. He just does not give me that kind of power over him.
> 
> I certainly agree that when we have expectations of people, we risk missing out on just enjoying what they bring to the table. I think that is a real issue for Js.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree, being a J myself, it was something I had to work on. When I discovered that dynamic it was a true joy. Love has many shapes. 

On the abuse side of things, I don't think its that he doesn't give you that kind of power, Ijust think he is topped out on his T of his INTP where as my H rides close to that F on the INTP scale and it would take a LOT for DUG to view something as abusive, like a gun to the head, where as my H would feel it sooner, such as see the intent to harm before the weapon is chosen. I am SURE Dug would not tolerate a gun to his head no matter who was holding the trigger. So, It just takes more for him to feel the abuse, not that he manages the power. It would take more hardcore abuse to get him to throw up a boundary because of his high T. 

But you know what... just because he doesn't feel it as abuse doesn't mean you didn't have abusive intent.... keep that in mind. Regardless of what he can "take." If I were in your shoes I would always self assess in two area's. 

One being, if I felt I had abusive intent, I would self correct. 

The second being, assessing my expectations as either reasonable or unreasonable, then I would eliminate the unreasonable expectations for two reasons.... 

one, they make ME friggen miserable, who wants to create their own pain and two, its just the right thing to do. Whether it affects him or not, its just not kind to place unreasonable expectations on anyone.

Now, of course, I'm not in your shoes :grin2: but if I were, even if I had no fear of my H leaving and even if I knew those issues were no bigger than a gnat to him, I would still self correct not to protect him but because I felt it was the right thing to do.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> That is a pretty low bar, doing just enough so someone does not leave. Never been a fan of that approach.
> 
> Probably not optimal. But I think change has to come from his own spirit to be meaningful, and sustainable.
> 
> And I don't think I spend enough time reflecting on all the things he does for me. I take a lot for granted, too.
> 
> Pat, pat. Be a good little girl and be quiet so we can return to the status quo as Dug has defined it. Works for you I guess.
> 
> It frustrates me. It is why I keep bringing up my concerns as I feel them.
> 
> Look, there will always be frustrations in a relationship. I seem to be able to live with these.
> 
> Anyway, I am not leaving, so I will be continuing to share my thoughts with him and hoping they have some effect at some point.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> That is a pretty low bar, doing just enough so someone does not leave. Never been a fan of that approach.
> 
> 
> *Pat, pat. Be a good little girl and be quiet so we can return to the status quo as Dug has defined it. Works for you I guess*.


Did he actually say that?

That would drive me nuts...

giggle... he would get a "oh, no you didn't" from me... :wink2:


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> This is a very complicated dynamic, and one that many women neither desire, nor tolerate indefinitely. It is the very definition of taking for granted, and contrary to what you have consistently expressed, puts you in the power position in this relationship. He is dependent on you being willing to maintain this dynamic.
> 
> Well, if I were truly ready to leave, I think there would be changes. That is really the way to get power in a relationship: be willing to walk away.
> 
> If he were to change and begin to better meet your needs, things would most likely continue with the only change being you feeling calmer, happier, heard. If you were to change, set expectations, and enforce those expectations, his current mindset of being ok with good enough would have a very negative affect.
> 
> Sam, think about that once. How do you set and enforce the "expectation" that your partner *want* to be attentive to and affectionate with you? How meaningful is that going to be if it does not come from their own spirit?
> 
> I think I am better off expressing myself and accepting his response, and being grateful for what I do get in the relationship.
> 
> Honestly, all this setting and enforcing expectations sounds very controlling to me. And not very satisfying if that is what it takes to get what you want.
> 
> Are you afraid that he would not be able to meet your needs more regularly and completely if you stood firmer in your desire to have them met?
> 
> I just think it would be empty.
> 
> Again, if it does not come from his own spirit, does not spring up from his own heart, what meaning does it have?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Blossom Leigh said:


> Did he actually say that?
> 
> That would drive me nuts...
> 
> giggle... he would get a "oh, no you didn't" from me... :wink2:


No, no. That is my categorization.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> It frustrates me. It is why I keep bringing up my concerns as I feel them.
> 
> Look, there will always be frustrations in a relationship. I seem to be able to live with these.


Why do some people use the quote function like 99% of the time then just embed colored response every now and then? I must be a geek.

Anyway as to this. There does not need to always be frustrations in a relationship. Frustrations are a pain in the butt, and can be RESOLVED. I would not want to live in a constant state of frustration.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

There is some kind of disconnect between the boundaries we are advocating and this comment you made to Sam

"Honestly, all this setting and enforcing expectations sounds very controlling to me. And not very satisfying if that is what it takes to get what you want. Again, if it does not come from his own spirit, does not spring up from his own heart, what meaning does it have?"


They aren't done to "get" them to do what you want. They are communicated to allow your partner to know you have just hit a personal limit. They can choose to engage that or choose to not engage it and/or leave. But it wasn't put out there to "get" them to do anything. So if they do choose to engage it, it still sprang from their heart. Its ideal if they don't push to your limit, but it does not mean that if you do hit your limit and express that and they in turn choose to engage that, that it is meaningless and not from their heart or coerced. It can be if it is done the wrong way, but it doesn't always mean that. 

That's what I'm seeing in my relationship. I expressed a big personal limit. There was just no way I was going to live in the chaos and abuse that had arrived in our home. I would be a bad mother if I allowed that to continue around my child and my health cannot withstand that. My husband chose to engage that and I have seen this man blossom, truly blossom.

Last night without any words from me at all, he went to the grocery store and brought home fixin's for a great fresh fish meal, cooked it all, cleaned it up and loved on me because I was feeling horrible yesterday. Did other chores around the house and never once grumbled, huffed, or moped around. I could tell he was perfectly content and happy. 

I marveled at his growth because there was a time he would not have been that way. He sat down in his chair and said, "I just love cooking for you." When he walked into the house with all of his goodies, most of them were for me and my auto immune issues. When I saw them, I just cried. Because there was a time when he wouldn't have done that. 

All that sprung from his heart. In the past I had to say, buddy you just seriously maxed out my limit and I will not live that way. The rest... He and God did, because I took my hands off. Why? because I'm like you, I too want that to spring naturally and it has here despite him initially crossing/maxing my limit.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> Why do some people use the quote function like 99% of the time then just embed colored response every now and then? I must be a geek.
> 
> Anyway as to this. There does not need to always be frustrations in a relationship. Frustrations are a pain in the butt, and can be RESOLVED. I would not want to live in a constant state of frustration.


Agree, which is finally why after 17 years, I left my ex. I was tired of chasing that man. I won't chase another one.

"If you are in my space you put yourself here and don't be destructive in my space."

That's my framework.


----------



## Middle of Everything

120 pages and still going? God damn that dirty glass.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Blossom Leigh said:


> Agree, which is finally why after 17 years, I left my ex. I was tired of chasing that man. I won't chase another one.
> 
> "If you are in my space you put yourself here and don't be destructive in my space."
> 
> That's my framework.



For ME I accept a lot. People are who they are. Boundaries are for the things I WON'T accept. But I am not going to say I won't accept something, whinge about it, then accept it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Middle of Everything said:


> 120 pages and still going? God damn that dirty glass.


LOL.... nah, we are just having pondering conversations now... mullin' around hangin' out :nerd:

It's all good.... :grin2:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NobodySpecial said:


> For ME I accept a lot. People are who they are. Boundaries are for the things I WON'T accept. But I am not going to say I won't accept something, whinge about it, then accept it.


Exactly... I am exactly the same.

I don't accept destruction in my space.

I accept the person.

No destruction.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> This is a very complicated dynamic, and one that many women neither desire, nor tolerate indefinitely. It is the very definition of taking for granted, and contrary to what you have consistently expressed, puts you in the power position in this relationship. He is dependent on you being willing to maintain this dynamic.
> 
> *Well, if I were truly ready to leave, I think there would be changes. That is really the way to get power in a relationship: be willing to walk away.*
> 
> If he were to change and begin to better meet your needs, things would most likely continue with the only change being you feeling calmer, happier, heard. If you were to change, set expectations, and enforce those expectations, his current mindset of being ok with good enough would have a very negative affect.
> 
> *Sam, think about that once. How do you set and enforce the "expectation" that your partner *want* to be attentive to and affectionate with you? How meaningful is that going to be if it does not come from their own spirit?*
> 
> I think I am better off expressing myself and accepting his response, and being grateful for what I do get in the relationship.
> 
> *Honestly, all this setting and enforcing expectations sounds very controlling to me. And not very satisfying if that is what it takes to get what you want. *
> 
> Are you afraid that he would not be able to meet your needs more regularly and completely if you stood firmer in your desire to have them met?
> 
> I just think it would be empty.
> 
> *Again, if it does not come from his own spirit, does not spring up from his own heart, what meaning does it have*?


There really isn't anything controlling about it at all. Do you have expectations for your children? Do those expectations make you a controlling person?

My wife tends to be an angry person. I am similar to dug in that I weather my wife's anger without being hurt by it. The difference is, her anger is very rarely directed at me, and I am able to see that. I know that I meet her needs. When she does express something that I could do better, it only takes once.

I understand the idea of doing something from the spirit, but I think that spirit is far deeper than what you are saying. For example...I never said "bless you" to anyone before in my life when they sneezed. My wife brought that up to me, and said that is bothered her that I never said it to her. I've said it every time since then. That did come from my spirit. The words are still meaningless to me, but that is just superficial. The spirit, the deep, underlying motivation was to provide for my wife something that was within my power to provide. It is about hearing her, recognizing that she has a need, and not settling within myself that simply trying is good enough to be considered a success.


----------



## Middle of Everything

Blossom Leigh said:


> LOL.... nah, we are just having pondering conversations now... mullin' around hangin' out :nerd:
> 
> It's all good.... :grin2:


I thought you were going to tell me its not about the [email protected] glass. :grin2:


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I agree, being a J myself, it was something I had to work on. When I discovered that dynamic it was a true joy. Love has many shapes. Which dynamic?
> 
> On the abuse side of things, I don't think its that he doesn't give you that kind of power, Ijust think he is topped out on his T of his INTP where as my H rides close to that F on the INTP scale and it would take a LOT for DUG to view something as abusive, like a gun to the head, where as my H would feel it sooner, such as see the intent to harm before the weapon is chosen. Yes, Dug is a strong T, and an even stronger P. He has a hard time relating to people who are very sensitive. And I do think it is because he just does not give them that kind of power over him. Not intentionally, but just because that is how he is. I am SURE Dug would not tolerate a gun to his head no matter who was holding the trigger. No, he would not tolerate that. Any physical aggression would be shut down quickly. So, It just takes more for him to feel the abuse, not that he manages the power. Disagree. It would take more hardcore abuse to get him to throw up a boundary because of his high T. The only thing that really works in a fundamental way with verbal or emotional abuse, imo, is reaching the heart of the other person. It is from the heart that the mouth speaks. Reach the heart, and the behavior will change on its own.
> 
> Okay, depending on the background of the person, there might need to be some coaching.
> 
> But you know what... just because he doesn't feel it as abuse doesn't mean you didn't have abusive intent.... keep that in mind. Regardless of what he can "take." If I were in your shoes I would always self assess in two area's. I have tried to hurt him, Blossom. It does not work. It just hurts me.
> 
> The only thing that seems to work is sharing my heart repeatedly, then giving up in exasperation, then a few years down the line actually seeing some improvement. It has to come from his own heart, and it takes time for the head to process it, too, I guess.
> 
> One being, if I felt I had abusive intent, I would self correct. Well, seeing it does not work tends to make one give up at some point. Sometimes in despair.
> 
> The second being, assessing my expectations as either reasonable or unreasonable, then I would eliminate the unreasonable expectations for two reasons....
> 
> one, they make ME friggen miserable, who wants to create their own pain and two, its just the right thing to do. Whether it affects him or not, its just not kind to place unreasonable expectations on anyone. The reason to give up on that is because it just does not work. Unreasonable expectations just frustrate the "expecter."
> 
> Now, of course, I'm not in your shoes :grin2: but if I were, even if I had no fear of my H leaving and even if I knew those issues were no bigger than a gnat to him, I would still self correct not to protect him but because I felt it was the right thing to do.


And when I can be completely rational without any emotion seeping in, I can do this. 

There are two things that could help me: accepting Dug as he is and ceasing to have expectations, or his stepping up of his own free will.

Okay, I want to give Dug some credit here. He is much more affectionate than he used to be. I really appreciate that. Dug is never going to be as affectionate as I am, but he is making efforts.

And he does make efforts to be attentive. I mean, he participates on TAM. That is a huge deposit in my emotional bank account.

I want for Dug and me to beat with one heart. I want perfect unity. But it seems it is not realistic, and I need to be satisfied with what he does do, plus share my feelings about what I would like, and hope he can either accommodate that somehow or we can find a way together for both of us to be satisfied, and not just one of us.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Middle of Everything said:


> I thought you were going to tell me its not about the [email protected] glass. :grin2:


ROFL!!! That's not the camp I was in anyway :wink2:


----------



## jld

I have to say, just writing a lot of this out is helpful. Things just seem clearer to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> There really isn't anything controlling about it at all. Do you have expectations for your children? Do those expectations make you a controlling person?
> 
> My wife tends to be an angry person. I am similar to dug in that I weather my wife's anger without being hurt by it. The difference is, her anger is very rarely directed at me, and I am able to see that. I know that I meet her needs. When she does express something that I could do better, it only takes once.
> 
> I understand the idea of doing something from the spirit, but I think that spirit is far deeper than what you are saying. For example...I never said "bless you" to anyone before in my life when they sneezed. My wife brought that up to me, and said that is bothered her that I never said it to her. I've said it every time since then. That did come from my spirit. The words are still meaningless to me, but that is just superficial. The spirit, the deep, underlying motivation was to provide for my wife something that was within my power to provide. It is about hearing her, recognizing that she has a need, and not settling within myself that simply trying is good enough to be considered a success.


Yes. I will never ever ever be able to stroke, hug, cuddle in a serious I love you sort of what from my own motivation for same. It just is not me. That does not change the fact that my husband wants and needs it. I do it for HIM. That is where my "spirit" is.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> Yes. I will never ever ever be able to stroke, hug, cuddle in a serious I love you sort of what from my own motivation for same. It just is not me. That does not change the fact that my husband wants and needs it. I do it for HIM. That is where my "spirit" is.


True desire drives the spirit which drives the actions. The actions are merely a reflection of the true desire.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> And when I can be completely rational without any emotion seeping in, I can do this.
> 
> There are two things that could help me: accepting Dug as he is and ceasing to have expectations, or his stepping up of his own free will.
> 
> Okay, I want to give Dug some credit here. He is much more affectionate than he used to be. I really appreciate that. Dug is never going to be as affectionate as I am, but he is making efforts.
> 
> And he does make efforts to be attentive. I mean, he participates on TAM. That is a huge deposit in my emotional bank account.
> 
> I want for Dug and me to beat with one heart. I want perfect unity. But it seems it is not realistic, and* I need to be satisfied with what he does do, plus share my feelings about what I would like, and hope he can either accommodate that somehow or we can find a way together for both of us to be satisfied*, and not just one of us.


Yea, I like making those things positive. Partnering together to really make it good. It's the destructive stuff that brings my boundaries.

The dynamic I was mentioning was the one of releasing my expectations of how I think my H should love me and paying attention to how he actually does love me. I have discovered nuances that I had never noticed before. 

giggle... I am VERY familiar with that INTP need to process and how excruciatingly long that can be. LOL especially for us J's. Boy howdy.... THAT was a huge growing spot for me in this relationship. I banged myself up bad before accepting that one and learning to work with it instead of against it. I think Extraverted J's struggle with that more because we not only want a decision.... we want that decision NOW. LOL No patience.

My H is complex and I love it. Fascinates me.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Why do some people use the quote function like 99% of the time then just embed colored response every now and then? I must be a geek.
> 
> Anyway as to this. There does not need to always be frustrations in a relationship. Frustrations are a pain in the butt, and can be RESOLVED. I would not want to live in a constant state of frustration.


I'm apparently okay with it. Because, in reality, when we are not, we change things, at least on our side.

Though I still do not know how to get someone to change, while also wanting it to come from their own spirit, other than the way I have already talked about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> I'm apparently okay with it. Because, in reality, when we are not, we change things, at least on our side.
> 
> Though I still do not know how to get someone to change, while also wanting it to come from their own spirit, other than the way I have already talked about.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They will change if and when they want to change. You can not make them. The change is only the manifestation of the spirit, not the spirit itself.


----------



## Middle of Everything

jld said:


> And when I can be completely rational without any emotion seeping in, I can do this.
> 
> There are two things that could help me: accepting Dug as he is and ceasing to have expectations, or his stepping up of his own free will.
> 
> Okay, I want to give Dug some credit here. He is much more affectionate than he used to be. I really appreciate that. Dug is never going to be as affectionate as I am, but he is making efforts.
> 
> And he does make efforts to be attentive. I mean, he participates on TAM. That is a huge deposit in my emotional bank account.
> 
> I want for Dug and me to beat with one heart.* I want perfect unity*. But it seems it is not realistic, and I need to be satisfied with what he does do, plus share my feelings about what I would like, and hope he can either accommodate that somehow or we can find a way together for both of us to be satisfied, and not just one of us.


JLD I dont know your situation so ignore me if I missed something pertinent. Im only responding to the bolded.

Be careful about wanting perfection. Sometimes it makes people not be able to see and appreciate that what they have is pretty damn good. Like the person who was desperate to have the huge fancy house their whole life and therefore could never be truly happy in their average 3 bedroom home in their average neighborhood. 

Not saying we shouldnt be able to want the best for ourselves in everything in life. Some people miss out on enjoying what they truly have though when they pine for "the best" for too long. 

Might not be relevant, just an observation.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> There is some kind of disconnect between the boundaries we are advocating and this comment you made to Sam
> 
> "Honestly, all this setting and enforcing expectations sounds very controlling to me. And not very satisfying if that is what it takes to get what you want. Again, if it does not come from his own spirit, does not spring up from his own heart, what meaning does it have?"
> 
> 
> They aren't done to "get" them to do what you want. They are communicated to allow your partner to know you have just hit a personal limit. They can choose to engage that or choose to not engage it and/or leave. But it wasn't put out there to "get" them to do anything. So if they do choose to engage it, it still sprang from their heart. Its ideal if they don't push to your limit, but it does not mean that if you do hit your limit and express that and they in turn choose to engage that, that it is meaningless and not from their heart or coerced. It can be if it is done the wrong way, but it doesn't always mean that.
> 
> That's what I'm seeing in my relationship. I expressed a big personal limit. There was just no way I was going to live in the chaos and abuse that had arrived in our home. I would be a bad mother if I allowed that to continue around my child and my health cannot withstand that. My husband chose to engage that and I have seen this man blossom, truly blossom.
> 
> Last night without any words from me at all, he went to the grocery store and brought home fixin's for a great fresh fish meal, cooked it all, cleaned it up and loved on me because I was feeling horrible yesterday. Did other chores around the house and never once grumbled, huffed, or moped around. I could tell he was perfectly content and happy.
> 
> I marveled at his growth because there was a time he would not have been that way. He sat down in his chair and said, "I just love cooking for you." When he walked into the house with all of his goodies, most of them were for me and my auto immune issues. When I saw them, I just cried. Because there was a time when he wouldn't have done that.
> 
> All that sprung from his heart. In the past I had to say, buddy you just seriously maxed out my limit and I will not live that way. The rest... He and God did, because I took my hands off. Why? because I'm like you, I too want that to spring naturally and it has here despite him initially crossing/maxing my limit.


I am sure that was gratifying, Blossom. He really has come a long way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> There really isn't anything controlling about it at all. Do you have expectations for your children? Do those expectations make you a controlling person? Yes, I have expectations. But that does not mean they are going to meet them. They might far exceed them, in their own area.
> 
> But if I am trying to control them, because I know best, I may very likely frustrate them and not appreciate what their own spirits are inclined to.
> 
> My wife tends to be an angry person. I am similar to dug in that I weather my wife's anger without being hurt by it. The difference is, her anger is very rarely directed at me, and I am able to see that. I know that I meet her needs. When she does express something that I could do better, it only takes once.
> 
> I understand the idea of doing something from the spirit, but I think that spirit is far deeper than what you are saying. For example...I never said "bless you" to anyone before in my life when they sneezed. My wife brought that up to me, and said that is bothered her that I never said it to her. I've said it every time since then. That did come from my spirit. The words are still meaningless to me, but that is just superficial. The spirit, the deep, underlying motivation was to provide for my wife something that was within my power to provide. It is about hearing her, recognizing that she has a need, and not settling within myself that simply trying is good enough to be considered a success.
> 
> Yes, you want to be considerate. I think this is commendable.
> 
> Dug is certainly not against being considerate. But he may not think of it with the discipline that you do. Again, he is not sensitive. He does not understand why you want your wife to compliment you, for example.


_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I am sure that was gratifying, Blossom. He really has come a long way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It truly was. 

He truly has.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I like making those things positive. Partnering together to really make it good. It's the destructive stuff that brings my boundaries.
> 
> The dynamic I was mentioning was the one of *releasing my expectations of how I think my H should love me and paying attention to how he actually does love me. I have discovered nuances that I had never noticed before. *
> 
> giggle... I am VERY familiar with that INTP need to process and how excruciatingly long that can be. LOL especially for us J's. Boy howdy.... THAT was a huge growing spot for me in this relationship. I banged myself up bad before accepting that one and learning to work with it instead of against it. I think Extraverted J's struggle with that more because we not only want a decision.... we want that decision NOW. LOL No patience.
> 
> My H is complex and I love it. Fascinates me.


I think in some ways you are more patient than I am, Blossom. I could not have done what you did. 

But our marriages are different. Context is important. And I am not the strongest J. 

That bolded is very good. When I take time to reflect on my blessings, I realize there is an awful lot to be thankful for.

But it is still good to be transparent about how to make it better!
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> Yes, you want to be considerate. I think this is commendable.
> 
> Dug is certainly not against being considerate. But he may not think of it with the discipline that you do. Again, he is not sensitive. He does not understand why you want your wife to compliment you, for example.


It is not about being considerate. That is just the side affect. It is about my desire to meet her needs in a way that I am able.

I am not a terribly sensitive person, but I am very perceptive. The words of physical appreciation that I want from my wife...I would be perfectly fine without them if that was something she was not capable of doing. She is capable of it as evidenced by the fact that she is able to say the things I want to hear about me, about other men. That is where the disconnect is for me. Where doubts begin to creep in. Yes, she is married to me. Yes we have copious amount of mutually desired sex. Actions speak louder than words, except when the words ARE the actions.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think in some ways you are more patient than I am, Blossom. I could not have done what you did.
> 
> But our marriages are different. Context is important. And I am not the strongest J.
> 
> That bolded is very good. When I take time to reflect on my blessings, I realize there is an awful lot to be thankful for.
> 
> But it is still good to be transparent about how to make it better!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea, when I believe in something and see the potential for success I can be doggedly determined. That's where my patience shows up. But, moment to moment, I like "quick" responsiveness, so THAT is where I failed my H many times. As you know and INTP prrrroooooocessessssssss. LOL omg. I thought I was going to lose my mind. I'm good with it now and the super cool part is they can come up with the most amazing ideas. I learned to trust his processing because what comes from it is good now. Context is definitely important. Yea even though I am an ENTJ... I run super close to that ENFJ. For a while I thought I was ENFJ, but after much thought and testing... I'm definitely wired as a CEO type, but just have a lot of heart :grin2:

My H and I enjoy much transparency too. Neither one of us can hide our emotions well. Both of us notice the *slightest* shift. THAT is a blessing and a curse.  So we had to learn how to manage that correctly or it's destructive.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> It is not about being considerate. That is just the side affect. It is about my desire to meet her needs in a way that I am able.
> 
> I am not a terribly sensitive person, You seem sensitive to me. but I am very perceptive. The words of physical appreciation that I want from my wife...I would be perfectly fine without them if that was something she was not capable of doing. She is capable of it as evidenced by the fact that she is able to say the things I want to hear about me, about other men. That is where the disconnect is for me. It feels unfair?Where doubts begin to creep in. That she does not desire you as much as them? Yes, she is married to me. Yes we have copious amount of mutually desired sex. Actions speak louder than words, except when the words ARE the actions.
> 
> I guess my question would still be, Why do you need it? Why is it an issue?


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, when I believe in something and see the potential for success I can be doggedly determined. I can relate to that. That's where my patience shows up. But, moment to moment, I like "quick" responsiveness, so THAT is where I failed my H many times. As you know and INTP prrrroooooocessessssssss. LOL omg. I thought I was going to lose my mind. I'm good with it now and the super cool part is they can come up with the most amazing ideas. Yes, very intelligent people. Both always alone and French Fry are INTPs. I learned to trust his processing because what comes from it is good now. That's good. Context is definitely important. Yea even though I am an ENTJ... I run super close to that ENFJ. For a while I thought I was ENFJ, but after much thought and testing... I'm definitely wired as a CEO type, but just have a lot of heart :grin2:
> 
> My H and I enjoy much transparency too. Neither one of us can hide our emotions well. Both of us notice the *slightest* shift. Are you sure he is not an F?THAT is a blessing and a curse.  So we had to learn how to manage that correctly or it's destructive. I think it would be hard to have two Fs together. Not that you two are Fs. It is just a thought that occurred to me. Too much sensitivity can be draining, imo. It is hard to watch out for misinterpretation while trying to accurately present ideas.


----------



## Marduk

Duguesclin said:


> We are not in a 50/50 relationship. I am willing to take responsibility for the success of this marriage. Therefore it is normal that expectations are very different.
> 
> But you also need to look at personalities. JLD likes to reference the MBTI. It is a great illustrator of our differences. I am a P. Therefore I am flexible and do not get bent out of shape if I am not perfect. It did not bother me not to have an A in school. It mattered very much to JLD. As a result she has the tendency to not try if she is not sure to excel. I, on the other hand, am willing to try, regardless of the outcome.
> 
> So when JLD is asking for X, she expects to receive it. For me, it is good enough to try.
> 
> I believe our relationship is doing well. Is it perfect, of course not. We obviously have our conflicts. But believing JLD will be totally happy because I somehow do exactly what she wants, the way she wants it, would be very short sighted.
> 
> I am good to her like she is good to me. Being like her is not what I need like being like me is not what she needs.
> 
> We need to keep an open conversation. It just happens to be on a public forum right now. Not something I imagined we would do, but so be it.


I think the core dynamic I'm trying to point at with you that I see Dug is that you will commit to changing, take full accountability for the discrepancy in expectations, and then not deliver. 

But I think you know you're not going to deliver the way JLD expects. You make an assessment for the minimum that she needs for the marriage to be happy, and do that.

Which leaves a pretty big gap between what JLD expects and what you're going to deliver.

What I would suggest is hearing her out, make your assessment for what you're willing to do and think you need to do, and then manage her expectations on that. Instead of just letting the gap be the gap.

I think she's ready to accept that there will be a gap. Just be intentional about it, maybe.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> What I would suggest is hearing her out, make your assessment for what you're willing to do and think you need to do, and then manage her expectations on that. Instead of just letting the gap be the gap.


That's very J of you, marduk.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I want for Dug and me to beat with one heart. I want perfect unity.


Even if Dug wasn't Dug, even if he were high emo, that isn't going to happen, right? 

With nobody, ever is that going to happen. At least, not for long.

But especially for Dug. Who you picked specifically because he's low emo.

So it's like asking for a guy who has super high muscle mass because he's a power lifter to scale Mount Everest. The thing that makes him a good power lifter is going to make it impossible to do the task you want him to do -- he's not going to be able to have the endurance or keep his blood oxygen up to do it. And you can't blame him for it, because that's who you needed to be with.


> But it seems it is not realistic, and I need to be satisfied with what he does do, plus share my feelings about what I would like, and hope he can either accommodate that somehow or we can find a way together for both of us to be satisfied, and not just one of us.


What I don't want is for both you and Dug to continually feel like there's failure, when you're not set up for success to begin with.

Move the goal posts to where you can both succeed, and then succeed, and be happy.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Even if Dug wasn't Dug, even if he were high emo, that isn't going to happen, right?
> 
> With nobody, ever is that going to happen. Agreed. At least, not for long.
> 
> But especially for Dug. Who you picked specifically because he's low emo. I did not pick him. He picked me. But yes, the pairing works very well.
> 
> So it's like asking for a guy who has super high muscle mass because he's a power lifter to scale Mount Everest. The thing that makes him a good power lifter is going to make it impossible to do the task you want him to do -- he's not going to be able to have the endurance or keep his blood oxygen up to do it. And you can't blame him for it, because that's who you needed to be with. Yes, I do need him. And his life is very happy with me in it.
> 
> What I don't want is for both you and Dug to continually feel like there's failure, when you're not set up for success to begin with. I don't think he ever feels failure in our relationship. Rough moments, maybe, but never failure. He is always very sure of his decision to marry me. Says it is the best decision he ever made.
> 
> And really, for as many times as I have cried out during an argument that I married the wrong man, there have been many more times that in my heart I have realized that if I did everything else wrong in life, at least I married the right man. Emotions can be fickle.
> 
> Move the goal posts to where you can both succeed, and then succeed, and be happy. Yes, I need to reset my expectations. I may be too idealistic.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Yea, when I believe in something and see the potential for success I can be doggedly determined. I can relate to that. That's where my patience shows up. But, moment to moment, I like "quick" responsiveness, so THAT is where I failed my H many times. As you know and INTP prrrroooooocessessssssss. LOL omg. I thought I was going to lose my mind. I'm good with it now and the super cool part is they can come up with the most amazing ideas. Yes, very intelligent people. Both always alone and French Fry are INTPs. I learned to trust his processing because what comes from it is good now. That's good. Context is definitely important. Yea even though I am an ENTJ... I run super close to that ENFJ. For a while I thought I was ENFJ, but after much thought and testing... I'm definitely wired as a CEO type, but just have a lot of heart
> 
> My H and I enjoy much transparency too. Neither one of us can hide our emotions well. Both of us notice the *slightest* shift. Are you sure he is not an F?THAT is a blessing and a curse. So we had to learn how to manage that correctly or it's destructive. I think it would be hard to have two Fs together. Not that you two are Fs. It is just a thought that occurred to me. Too much sensitivity can be draining, imo. It is hard to watch out for misinterpretation while trying to accurately present ideas.


He and I both are close to the middle between the T/F.

to be honest I believe it was the growing up in the alcoholic home that caused both of us to be hypervigilant and because of violence in my home, I'm more so. But, he is definitely a T and so am I, but like I said I will "float" occasionally over into F especially during a trigger, he just hugs the line.  AND YES... we have worn each other out before. It was one reason why I was like... I can't do this. Can you imagine dual sensitivity AND abuse??? It HAD to change. There was no other way than to just end it. That mutual sensitivity though is also the deepest connection I have ever experienced, not just by a little bit, but in the next galaxy different. It was worth fighting to keep.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> He and I both are close to the middle between the T/F.
> 
> to be honest I believe it was the growing up in the alcoholic home that caused both of us to be hypervigilant and because of violence in my home, I'm more so. But, he is definitely a T and so am I, but like I said I will "float" occasionally over into F especially during a trigger, he just hugs the line.  AND YES... we have worn each other out before. It was one reason why I was like... I can't do this. Can you imagine dual sensitivity AND abuse??? It HAD to change. There was no other way than to just end it. That mutual sensitivity though is also the deepest connection I have ever experienced, not just by a little bit, but in the next galaxy different. It was worth fighting to keep.


Wow, sounds intense.

What drew you to each other, Blossom? Have you ever told the story of how you two met?


----------



## jld

FrenchFry said:


> @jld
> 
> I'm not that smart, I married an ENTJ. :grin2:


Too funny! 

I think you're brilliant, right along with always alone.


----------



## samyeagar

Since types are being thrown around here...I am INFJ for what it's worth.


----------



## jld

samyeagar said:


> Since types are being thrown around here...I am INFJ for what it's worth.


That is what @Blonde is, too. 

What is your wife, sam?


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## samyeagar

jld said:


> that is what @blonde is, too.
> 
> What is your wife, sam?


isfj


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Wow, sounds intense.
> 
> What drew you to each other, Blossom? Have you ever told the story of how you two met?


lol..I don't think so. A mutual friend we were helping with her relationships, told us, y'all need to meet. You two think just alike. 

The rest is history. We fell HARD.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

FrenchFry said:


> @jld
> 
> I'm not that smart, I married an ENTJ. :grin2:


LOL!! omg... ya'll are us in reverse.


----------



## Marduk

FrenchFry said:


> @jld
> 
> I'm not that smart, I married an ENTJ. :grin2:


Hey, I'm an ENTJ.

Everything works just fine as long as I'm in charge and everybody realizes that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> Hey, I'm an ENTJ.
> 
> Everything works just fine as long as I'm in charge and everybody realizes that.


LOL!!! My brother from another mother.

That's funny... I should have known we were both ENTJ's


----------



## jld

Zanne said:


> What an interesting turn to the conversation! As an ISFP, I have let the dishes stack up and will do them happily to keep the peace, until such time that I am overwhelmed with other duties which I have taken on and then I blow up and blame everyone else for taking advantage of my kindness.
> 
> If anyone here ever followed a gal named "Fly Lady", she would tell you that if having a clean sink is really important to you, then you should clean it yourself because you can't expect everyone else to think it's important too. They have their own issues, i.e., having a clean garage floor or whatever. I guess that's where compromise comes in.


Nice to see you, Zanne. I totally agree that if you want something done, it is best to do it yourself. 

But it can get kind of lonely in a marriage if you don't feel like your spouse does not have at least some of your same priorities. Would you agree?


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> lol..I don't think so. A mutual friend we were helping with her relationships, told us, y'all need to meet. You two think just alike.
> 
> The rest is history. We fell HARD.


Well, it would be fun to hear that history some time . . .


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> LOL!!! My brother from another mother.
> 
> That's funny... I should have known we were both ENTJ's


It's why we both recognize that we're awesome.

And would probably tear each other part in any workplace or competitive sport. 

Because we can't both be captain, and there can be only one.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> It's why we both recognize that we're awesome.
> 
> And would probably tear each other part in any workplace or competitive sport.
> 
> Because we can't both be captain, and there can be only one.


LOL!! SO true!


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> That is what @Blonde is, too.
> 
> What is your wife, sam?


Are you asking with me or the rest of the world?


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Are you asking with me or the rest of the world?


I was talking to sam yeagar.

You are welcome to say what you and your wife are, too.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Well, it would be fun to hear that history some time . . .


Well, I have one story that started my love affair with him. I it was the last two weeks of my divorce and I was looking desperately for my friend who knew us both. I couldn't find her and I sent him a message on messenger asking him if she knew where she was... in his intuitive way he sensed I was very upset and asked me if I was ok. I shared some of my distress with him. I remember reeling at the time with upset and with ONE question, he cut through my upset and I became 1000% calm. I don't even remember the question, but I was BLOWN AWAY. I asked him... how did you do that?!?! I was toast from there. Totally hooked. Our connection has been intense.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

FrenchFry said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Not reverse, just in the same quadrant! Your appreciation story made me laugh, my husband has made significant progress on accepting my form of love rather than squeezing me to conform to his love. I definitely appreciate it.
> 
> And as long as my husband thinks he's in charge, I get away with bloody murder--which is just how I like it.
> 
> The trick with ENTJs is that you have to let them think that they came up with the idea.* The trick with INTPs is that you have to rearrange the situation until no other idea makes sense*.
> 
> NFs just get it. :grin2:


LOL! That's funny!


----------



## jld

FrenchFry said:


> The trick with ENTJs is that you have to let them think that they came up with the idea. *The trick with INTPs is that you have to rearrange the situation until no other idea makes sense.*


I can believe this.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

:rofl::rofl::rofl: SEEEEEE!!!! They are both INTP! LOL! That's freakin hilarious we both commented on that.. omg THAT is EXACTLY how my H is. omg... the fights we have had over where to live... 



Blossom Leigh said:


> LOL! That's funny!





jld said:


> I can believe this.


----------



## Marduk

FrenchFry said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Not reverse, just in the same quadrant! Your appreciation story made me laugh, my husband has made significant progress on accepting my form of love rather than squeezing me to conform to his love. I definitely appreciate it.
> 
> And as long as my husband thinks he's in charge, I get away with bloody murder--which is just how I like it.
> 
> The trick with ENTJs is that you have to let them think that they came up with the idea. The trick with INTPs is that you have to rearrange the situation until no other idea makes sense.
> 
> NFs just get it. :grin2:


The trick with ENTJs and everybody else is that we make you feel good and like you're consenting to our leadership.

Not that it really matters to us, but there's less drama that way.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## jld

Zanne said:


> I definitely agree. It was clear to me early on that my husband and I did not have the same priorities and further, he was not willing to show me that it mattered to him. Case in point, I told him that it was important to me that he shower on a regular basis (his hygiene was horrible, mainly because of laziness - huge turn off for me). He told me and our marriage counselor that he wasn't going to be told when to take a shower! Everything was oppositional with him. It was like being married to a teenager.


My gosh, that must have been awful. Amazing that a grown man would not realize he should be showering regularly.

I don't blame you for not wanting to be married to a teenager. Honestly, Zanne, I am amazed your marriage lasted as long as it did.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> The trick with ENTJs and everybody else is that we make you feel good and like you're consenting to our leadership.
> 
> Not that it really matters to us, but there's less drama that way.


omg... y'all have gotta stop, my sides are hurting!

:rofl:


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> omg... y'all have gotta stop, my sides are hurting!
> 
> :rofl:


For all you Fs and Ps out there...


----------



## Marduk

FrenchFry said:


> NTs can't gloat too hard. We are terrible at interpersonal relationships and everyone gets frustrated with us at some point because we just don't get how to act like a decent human being without full on bludgeoning.
> 
> Which is why we end up divorced over glasses.


More likely that we get divorced because we're so awesome and busy riding bears with no shirt on to notice a stupid glass.

You know, while we're occupying Ukraine and stuff.










Besides, we interact with our subordinates just fine.


----------



## jld

Keep telling yourself that, marduk . . .


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Keep telling yourself that, marduk . . .


Why would I do that?

I'll just get everyone else to tell it to me for me.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> Why would I do that?
> 
> I'll just get everyone else to tell it to me for me.


Ever the politician . . .


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Rofl!!!!


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Here is some interesting Blossom trivia...

My ex was an ESTJ ... My current H is a INTP

Complete and utter opposites besides the T.

THAT was an interesting transition.


----------



## Marduk

FrenchFry said:


> How to placate an ENTJ:
> 
> Yeah! Of course! I totally didn't see that before. Excuse me while I think about how right you were.
> 
> *spends the rest of the day on Xbox*
> 
> (This also works on ENTPs.)


... while the entj is out surrounded by adoring fans.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> ... while the entj is out surrounded by adoring fans.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


to reassure himself of his worth. 

Just giving you a very hard time, marduk.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Here is some interesting Blossom trivia...
> 
> My ex was an ESTJ ... My current H is a INTP
> 
> Complete and utter opposites besides the T.
> 
> THAT was an interesting transition.


Did the ESTJ feel like too much competition in some ways?


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> to reassure himself of his worth.
> 
> Just giving you a very hard time, marduk.


It's ok. 

It's cute when you try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

*rolls eyes*


----------



## jld

Zanne said:


> You know, I had some growing up to do as well. Still working on some areas. We met as teens and married young. Five kids in nine years. He was always running from his responsibilities though. Not that he needs a defense, but he had a messed up childhood. His mom moved him around a lot and he became the school bully to survive.
> 
> I think there is a lot of truth in these personality tests. You can't change people, but you can understand them better. Hippocrates proposed the four humors (temperaments). I happen to agree with his assessments too. I think I'm Melancholic? Of course, my husband would never entertain me with any of these assessments. His loss!
> 
> I guess the key thing is to figure this stuff out BEFORE you commit to a serious relationship.


What would you say you needed to work on, Zanne, in a nutshell?

As for the marriage, you certainly have my sympathy. I remember the day I read that you had two kids with cancer, and no help from your husband. I am still stunned by that.

I think personality tests are fun to read, too. It seems to be hard to be sure which one a person is, though. Some of the lines can be close, as others have noted.

I am not very familiar with the four humors, though others have talked about them. I could see your being melancholic, though.

Totally agree that the more naturally compatible a couple is, the easier the relationship will be.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Did the ESTJ feel like too much competition in some ways?


No, he was just gone all the time. Workaholic AND He was easily distracted from us. Had a million friends and everyone wanted his time and talents. I was left in the dust.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> No, he was just gone all the time. Workaholic AND He was easily distracted from us. Had a million friends and everyone wanted his time and talents. I was left in the dust.


Wow, he was a real extrovert. I can see how your current husband would be a big change from that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> It's ok.
> 
> It's cute when you try.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





jld said:


> *rolls eyes*


Haha!! Its not easy to intimidate an ENTJ.... Nor is it easy to impress an INFJ

Funny!!


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> *rolls eyes*


I'm sure you did that while playing with your hair and pouting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Wow, he was a real extrovert. I can see how your current husband would be a big change from that.



Oh I totally agree. My INTP is WAY more independent from distractions and loves being home.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I'm sure you did that while playing with your hair and pouting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not at all. I am just sitting here with my ruler close by, marduk. 

And far.


----------



## Marduk

FrenchFry said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Oh no, please don't leave me alone. I definitely don't want time to fart around with my head up my ass. I really, really don't like it.
> 
> Your fans need you. Don't let them down!


... Queues up another episode of Doctor who...

Ooh! The Face of Evil. That's a good one!

When he meets Leela. She was hot. In her leather and everything. 

Time for a scotch. It's Friday!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Oh I totally agree. My INTP is WAY more independent from distractions and loves being home.


Blossom, not to intrude on sensitive territory, but . . . I can't ever see Dug cheating. Not at all. Nor threatening suicide. 

Okay, I am going to just say it, and if you are offended, just tell me and I will erase this post, okay? But considering what has gone down in the past with you two, and all the repair work you had to do, do you somewhat feel like a mom to him?

Again, this is not meant to offend. Just genuine questions. That can be deleted if you give the word!

Taking courage in hand and posting . . .


----------



## jld

What's the topic again?


----------



## GettingIt_2

FrenchFry said:


> How to placate an ENTJ:
> 
> Yeah! Of course! I totally didn't see that before. Excuse me while I think about how right you were.
> 
> *spends the rest of the day on Xbox*
> 
> *(This also works on ENTPs.)*


Well, this ENTP would need a _little_ more in depth discussion of the merits of my ingenious insight . . . 

ENTPs have endless stamina and fascination for working on interpersonal relationships, which is good since we tend to drive our partners BSC with our highly developed skills of rationalization. 

We're hard to get along with, but willing to try and figure out exactly why . . . as long as you don't ask us to then change.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Blossom, not to intrude on sensitive territory, but . . . I can't ever see Dug cheating. Not at all. Nor threatening suicide.
> 
> Okay, I am going to just say it, and if you are offended, just tell me and I will erase this post, okay? But considering what has gone down in the past with you two, and all the repair work you had to do, do you somewhat feel like a mom to him?
> 
> Again, this is not meant to offend. Just genuine questions. That can be deleted if you give the word!
> 
> Taking courage in hand and posting . . .


It doesn't feel that way on this end. From the beginning, I expected him to carry his load. When he hit my personal limits I made them loud and clear once I figured out how to effectively. It took me a while, but once I did and knew I was spot on, I stepped back. It was up to him to chose me, and fill in the blanks on how he was to choose different. His mother, as loving as she is didn't do him any favors by protecting him. I was reasonable and fair to him because thats just who I am, but refused to protect him. I can't tell you how many times I told him I aintcha mama and I'm not gonna be ya mama  Some would probably say I did... His behavior was very bratty and in a grown 6'3" body it was scary as hell, but my single goal was to get his emotional weight off me... Remember the "keep your eyes on your own paper". Highly effective. Whether it was or not, I was equipped to address it, I did, and here we are  If it was or if it wasn't I wanted my son to have his Dad in better shape and I deserved better treatment than I was getting. Either way, I'm ok with it. Just doesnt feel like it and probably because I'm fiercely independent and didn't want to be weighed down like that. Anytime he would lean in on me I pushed him off.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> What's the topic again?


I'm pretty sure it was how awesome I am. Or blossom. Or both.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> It doesn't feel that way on this end. From the beginning, I expected him to carry his load. When he hit my personal limits I made them loud and clear once I figured out how to effectively. It took me a while, but once I did and knew I was spot on, I stepped back. It was up to him to chose me, and fill in the blanks on how he was to choose different. His mother, as loving as she is didn't do him any favors by protecting him. I was reasonable and fair to him because thats just who I am, but refused to protect him. I can't tell you how many times I told him I aintcha mama and I'm not gonna be ya mama  Some would probably say I did... His behavior was very bratty and in a grown 6'3" body it was scary as hell, but my single goal was to get his emotional weight off me... Remember the "keep your eyes on your own paper". Highly effective. Whether it was or not, I was equipped to address it, I did, and here we are  If it was or if it wasn't I wanted my son to have his Dad in better shape and I deserved better treatment than I was getting. Either way, I'm ok with it. Just doesnt feel like it and probably because I'm fiercely independent and didn't want to be weighed down like that. Anytime he would lean in on me I pushed him off.


I appreciate the response, Blossom. 

I do remember "keep your eyes on your own paper," and "stay different." And I certainly understand wanting your son to grow up in an intact family.

I think you love your husband very much. I know I love Dug, too, but it just feels like a different kind of love than you have for your husband. Not that it has to be the same at all. We are all different and our marriages are different. It is just interesting to try to understand different dynamics, I guess.

Thanks again for addressing my question. And I am glad you were not offended.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> I'm pretty sure it was how awesome I am. Or blossom. Or both.


Oh, brother. 

Not that you're not awesome, Blossom. 

Lol, I think that used to be an appetizer at Chili's.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I appreciate the response, Blossom.
> 
> I do remember "keep your eyes on your own paper," and "stay different." And I certainly understand wanting your son to grow up in an intact family.
> 
> I think you love your husband very much. I know I love Dug, too, but it just feels like a different kind of love than you have for your husband. Not that it has to be the same at all. We are all different and our marriages are different. It is just interesting to try to understand different dynamics, I guess.
> 
> Thanks again for addressing my question. And I am glad you were not offended.


Sure  You are welcome . Wasn't offended at all.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Oh, brother.
> 
> Not that you're not awesome, Blossom.
> 
> Lol, I think that used to be an appetizer at Chili's.


Haha!!! I KNOW I've got awesome sauce going on over here


----------



## farsidejunky

Dunno, but I have a near beer poured and a bedroom date with F2, so y'all will have to continue this conversation of greatness and spanking with rulers without my presence.

Unless, of course, you guys are going to thread jack this thing into the realm of bedroom creativity. Then I will be all ears...



Night, y'all!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

Blossom Leigh said:


> Haha!!! I KNOW I've got awesome sauce going on over here


Ya, it's like a Jackson Pollock painting over here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Dunno, but I have a near beer poured and a bedroom date with F2, so y'all will have to continue this conversation of greatness and spanking with rulers without my presence.
> 
> Unless, of course, you guys are going to thread jack this thing into the realm of bedroom creativity. Then I will be all ears...
> 
> 
> 
> Night, y'all!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I was not going to spank you, though I am sure you both deserve it. I was just going to beat you about the shoulders a bit. 

Enjoy your evening, far.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> I was not going to spank you, though I am sure you both deserve it. I was just going to beat you about the shoulders a bit.
> 
> Enjoy your evening, far.


If I say "mommie stop" that really means "do it harder."

My safe word is "pineapple."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I give up.

FF, are you going to come back with that on-topic post soon?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

marduk said:


> If I say "mommie stop" that really means "do it harder."
> 
> My safe word is "pineapple."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Omg NO!!

Lets not go there!!


where's my 10' horse whip that I can use on Far's backside for cracking that door!!

:whip:


----------



## MAJDEATH

... I abandoned her to run off on every military deployment that came up, which is also an indication of the level of satisfaction in the relationship-if you would choose bullets over betrayal.


----------

