# Am I asking too much? Tank on "E"



## lastinline

I feel completely alone in my marriage. I work hard, I clean, I take care of kids, but nothing I ever do is good enough in my wife's eyes. I am an attractive middle aged professional man who is NOT having a midlife crisis, but just feels neglected and unappreciated by his wife. I have not cheated on her ever, and aside from continual coffee drinking, I am devoid of serious vice. I am not perfect by any means, but I am a decent and honorable man in my estimation, and in the estimation of my peers. I earn a low 6 figure salary, but my wife is from a wealthier background, so this is a pittance. After a decade of neglect, I have given up and now I'm starting to put together my end game scenarios for leaving my marriage.

I have begged my wife to change but my pleas have fallen on deaf ears. I have told her that I cannot tolerate the status quo, but she just walks away, or says that "now is not the time" to have a discussion. She has denied my requests for counseling, as it's "a waste of money". Left with no other recourse, I just want out. Here is my last letter to her. Was I too harsh? She seems to think so, but she won't move to the center. If I ask for a better relationship she "punishes" me for it by further isolating me physically. She denies having had an affair or having anyone else, but nothing else makes sense to me. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to live in a frigid sexless reationship. Anyway here is my last letter to her...

It's 2:20 in the morning and I can't sleep. Why --- does our marriage have to be this way? You feel slighted because I don't listen...because I don't earn enough money...because we live in --------...because I got two stupid dogs...because we don't do anything as a family?

---, we are not a family. A family begins with a husband and wife who love one another. Does that sound like us? Who will be selfless and sacrifice for one another. Who will be there in sickness and health, and who will provide love and support. Does that sound like us? We are only a family in so much as we live at the same location.

I feel bad you don't have a new vehicle. I truly do. I feel bad that you don't have a nice house in an area you would like to live. I feel worse that at best I only work hard in your eyes, and that it's obvious that you don't love me as a man or your husband. Perhaps it's resentment built up from years of not listening, but do you know what...you don't listen either. I have begged for affection, begged for comfort, begged for you to be there for me, and you have repeatedly said no. These are things that are free. It wouldn't have cost you anything but time. These are things that didn't require work or study, only a little kindness, but I get it "you don't do that anymore." ---, I can't do this anymore either. 

I no longer have a meaningful relationship with you. I no longer have a meaningful relationship with God. I used to be a better man for being around you. This is no longer true. Where once I could forgive, now I have resentment. Where once I could love, now I have anger. Where once I could dream, now I can only get through the day. I can't live like this. I won't live like this. Go to counseling --- you need it. I am going to find someone to talk to myself. I have a lot on my mind that's bothering me, and no one really to share it with. I guess in 20 words or less, the bold text is the extent of my problem, and my problem is tearing me apart. I would have never of thought in my wildest dreams that I could ever feel so alone in a marriage.

---, I love you and I will always love you. I have nothing else to give. Sometimes a man just comes up short. I think this is one of those times. I just understand that I am incapable of giving you what you need to be happy. I wish you well, and I forgive you for all of the pain that you have caused me. I hope one day you can do the same for me. 

-----

I would love to salvage my marriage, but this is "killing me inside", and I no longer have the will to pursue this relationship. My tank is empty. For the record her car is about 4 years old, and our house is quite nice in an upscale neighborhood, it's just not on the coast by any of her wealthier high school friends. I'm looking into divorce options now. I am tired of trying to earn the approval of someone whom I feel no longer loves me. Currently, I am leaning towards mediation. 5500$, what a crappy way to spend my Christmas bonus. LIL


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## Loving Husband

Well you laid it out to her. You are not going to accept your marriage this way and that is great. If she is holding back why?? If she is that shallow nothing you will do will ever be good enough. 1 person can not run a marriage and if she's not going to tell you what your doing wrong or what she needs then seperation is a start. I don't think a lawyer yet. You still love her. Give her an opportunity to see if she wants to fight for your marriage. If after you seperate you see no change then I would follow through with a divorce. I wish you luck but I think this the best action for you.


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## MEM2020

LIL,

I think you have described this in a loving and kind manner. Ultimately your wife has some very modern values:
- She thinks money and possessions are very, very important 
- She is more focused on her immediate happiness then simply doing what is right and feeling satisfaction from that

She is just unable to see what a great guy you are. 

And the late night disappearance you described - when you had met her to have the talk and she left but magically appeared at home in time to leave for the airport. That screams affair. 

One person cannot repair a marriage working alone.






lastinline said:


> I feel completely alone in my marriage. I work hard, I clean, I take care of kids, but nothing I ever do is good enough in my wife's eyes. I am an attractive middle aged professional man who is NOT having a midlife crisis, but just feels neglected and unappreciated by his wife. I have not cheated on her ever, and aside from continual coffee drinking, I am devoid of serious vice. I am not perfect by any means, but I am a decent and honorable man in my estimation, and in the estimation of my peers. I earn a low 6 figure salary, but my wife is from a wealthier background, so this is a pittance. After a decade of neglect, I have given up and now I'm starting to put together my end game scenarios for leaving my marriage.
> 
> I have begged my wife to change but my pleas have fallen on deaf ears. I have told her that I cannot tolerate the status quo, but she just walks away, or says that "now is not the time" to have a discussion. She has denied my requests for counseling, as it's "a waste of money". Left with no other recourse, I just want out. Here is my last letter to her. Was I too harsh? She seems to think so, but she won't move to the center. If I ask for a better relationship she "punishes" me for it by further isolating me physically. She denies having had an affair or having anyone else, but nothing else makes sense to me. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to live in a frigid sexless reationship. Anyway here is my last letter to her...
> 
> It's 2:20 in the morning and I can't sleep. Why --- does our marriage have to be this way? You feel slighted because I don't listen...because I don't earn enough money...because we live in --------...because I got two stupid dogs...because we don't do anything as a family?
> 
> ---, we are not a family. A family begins with a husband and wife who love one another. Does that sound like us? Who will be selfless and sacrifice for one another. Who will be there in sickness and health, and who will provide love and support. Does that sound like us? We are only a family in so much as we live at the same location.
> 
> I feel bad you don't have a new vehicle. I truly do. I feel bad that you don't have a nice house in an area you would like to live. I feel worse that at best I only work hard in your eyes, and that it's obvious that you don't love me as a man or your husband. Perhaps it's resentment built up from years of not listening, but do you know what...you don't listen either. I have begged for affection, begged for comfort, begged for you to be there for me, and you have repeatedly said no. These are things that are free. It wouldn't have cost you anything but time. These are things that didn't require work or study, only a little kindness, but I get it "you don't do that anymore." ---, I can't do this anymore either.
> 
> I no longer have a meaningful relationship with you. I no longer have a meaningful relationship with God. I used to be a better man for being around you. This is no longer true. Where once I could forgive, now I have resentment. Where once I could love, now I have anger. Where once I could dream, now I can only get through the day. I can't live like this. I won't live like this. Go to counseling --- you need it. I am going to find someone to talk to myself. I have a lot on my mind that's bothering me, and no one really to share it with. I guess in 20 words or less, the bold text is the extent of my problem, and my problem is tearing me apart. I would have never of thought in my wildest dreams that I could ever feel so alone in a marriage.
> 
> ---, I love you and I will always love you. I have nothing else to give. Sometimes a man just comes up short. I think this is one of those times. I just understand that I am incapable of giving you what you need to be happy. I wish you well, and I forgive you for all of the pain that you have caused me. I hope one day you can do the same for me.
> 
> -----
> 
> I would love to salvage my marriage, but this is "killing me inside", and I no longer have the will to pursue this relationship. My tank is empty. For the record her car is about 4 years old, and our house is quite nice in an upscale neighborhood, it's just not on the coast by any of her wealthier high school friends. I'm looking into divorce options now. I am tired of trying to earn the approval of someone whom I feel no longer loves me. Currently, I am leaning towards mediation. 5500$, what a crappy way to spend my Christmas bonus. LIL


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## Corpuswife

I would love to hear her written response. Her side....something is missing. You are right either she is having an affair or she is extremely bitter/resentful. 

I'm sorry LIL...it's tough leaving your family. I would have never thought my family would be going through our issues. It's my hope, for you, that this is her wake up call. 

It's never too late..even when divorce is filed. Even when you divorce and the ink is dryed. You still need to move on as there are no guarantees.

I had a rough childhood. I was blessed with a wonderful adulthood. We worked for everything we have...our marriage, house, family, etc. The one thing that we took for granted was our marriage-it would always be... Now, it's not and I'm shocked. I would give up my material items to be with my H again as a family. Things don't matter. 

The good things about my marriage crisis is that it restored my faith in God. I know for you...it's distanced you from God. That's sometimes happens. Begin reading the Bible before bed (5 minutes)..it will help give you peace and hope. At least, in my case it did.


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## lastinline

Thanks for the advice CW. I had already started reading my Bible prior to your comment, but it is great advice nonetheless. Other than pespective, there is nothing missing. If you heard it from her side, she would simply state that she is "too tired" to fufill her role as my wife. That she can't understand why were just "getting by" with our salary, and that I should "do less" in my clinic. She would also state that I spend too much time with my TKD, but that is the only thing holding me together at the moment. It is a positive outlet for me and were talking maybe 5 hours/wk. This from someone who used to play racquet ball for 3 hours/d prior to her knee surgery.

I hate to separate, because of the additional expense, and I feel it's important that my kids spend time with me daily. I wish she would just talk to me and make a firm decision to "work this out". I honestly think she's cheating, but she denies everything. Go figure. LIL


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## lastinline

Well she actually suggested separation with me watching the kids for the weekend. How friggin convenient for her. I work all week to pay for everything and then all weekend to put everything back together...wait I already have this. I am going to push for straight divorce. I will live in the house until it sells and we will go from there. LIL


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## Loving Husband

Don't do anything you will regret.. Why not have her leave and then see what happens?? Just before you hate to seperate because of additional expense. What will be if you contact a lawyer?? Then what happens if you guys want to make a go of it again?? I am just saying from experience I wouldn't do anything so fast.. I paid dearly for my wife to contact a lawyer 5 years ago..


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## lastinline

Well LH too late for that. For a relationship to be healthy it has to have both boundaries and benefits. Ours has neither. I have told her that it needs to either be mended or humanely "put to sleep". As is often her way, she had opted to do nothing. In our state there is a six month wait prior to divorce, so separation is simply the first step in that direction.

The sad thing is she is obviously depressed, and yes I am qualified to make that determination. I told her as much in my last letter. Here read it for yourself...

---, I am not a coward, but is is easier to write to you then talk to you. I can communicate with you through a letter, and at least let you know what I am thinking. My contention is that I feel you have given up on our relationship for sometime. I feel I have carried the heavier burden without credit or commendation. I feel unloved and unappreciated. I feel rejected as a man and as your husband. This has blossomed over years into resentment, and from that bitter spring into the mess we have now.

I think though it is globally unfair for you to expect so much from me why delivering so little yourself. I too am human despite what you may think. If you cut me I bleed, and I do have feelings. You have hurt me in unimaginable ways ---. You were the first person that I ever trusted enough to love. You enticed me with early affection, support, and praise, and then when the novelty wore off, you left me alone on my shelf, like some forgotten toy. You have neglected me, and simply opted not to love me while pooring your attentions on other people, often obscure people. I credit you with being a good mother to our children, but I fault you for elevating that relationship so far above our own as husband and wife.

I came from a miserable home ---. Look at the relationships I have with my own family. If you wanted me to be a more loving person, you needed to be a more loving person to me. If you'll remember, you'll see for awhile you were, and for awhile I was. When you shut off your Love to me, my "springs of affection" dried up. I am not blaming you ---. I am simply informing you. I don't think I am that different than most men in this way. In fact as you start to compare me, and compare me you will as you meet others, you will sadly find that I am actually a better man than the one you will eventually replace me with. Whoever that man is though, love him, or I promise you he will be unable to sustain his love to you. This is a piece of information you will need for your next relationship, if it is to be successful. 

Reflecting back on our phone call yesterday, I understand you want to separate. To me this is simply the first step towards divorce. If this is what you want, let us walk in this direction. I am amicable to divorce, but it is not my first choice. I do wish you well, and I do love you ---. There is just a time when cost becomes greater than benefit, and I think we've reached it. I too, do not like or receive any satisfaction from our relationship the way it is. Get some help though ---. As a trained medical professional, I can assure you that you are exhibiting many of the classical signs associated with depression, such as: mood disorder, sleep, memory, and lack of sex drive. I know it's no longer my call, but please look into cognitive therapy rather than the standard SRI's. C.T. works. Change the way you think ---, and you'll change the way you feel.


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## Corpuswife

That was a good letter LIL-clear and concise. 

I know it's a tough thing to do to lay it all down. 

I've recently decided to push for our divorce settlement. My H filed mid Sept but is slow to divide assets (uncontested). With every corner I think he will come back to restore the marriage. I analyze every little detail (body language, hugs, words, etc). 

My crisis has gone on a year now. It's time to get into self-preservation mode. I have a feeling that you may be rounding that corner as well. When it hurts too much to go on with the relationship as it is....

We've been separated for almost 4 months. No real changes.

The fact is...if our spouses wanted to restore this marriage than we wouldn't have to look for hidden messages. It would be loud and clear. It isn't in my case. 

I pray for you LIL and your family.


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## lastinline

She was pissed that I updated my almost never used Facebook account's marital status to: "it's complicated". I looked at her like she was a nut, and informed her that "well, it is". I can't fathom with every real issue that is transpiring in our live's that this could even register as an issue. All I can come up with is that this is the first time socially she has had to deal with this status loss. Everyone who has spoken to me thus far has been shocked because they always saw us as "so strong". Well so much for appearances people.

She then started a tirade about what my next wife would be like, and I was like "what?" She has been the only person I have ever had the courage to love in my adult life, and well let's just say it "went badly." It is going to take awhile for these wounds to heal, if they ever completely do. If I ever did remarry, it would have to be to someone who's means were similar to my own, and who had a career that was just as consuming. Not for the money or status this would bring mind you, but for the balance. She couldn't understand last night that I don't want to discuss money, day trips, dogs, or dental insurance anymore. What's the frigging point. It's like asking someone if they want a flu shot after they have contracted Ebola. 

She's cancelled her appointments with her counselor, because he didn't "call me back" after our first meeting. He must be in on my conspiracy too. I gently suggested that that's because the primary problem effecting me was our marriage, and to effectively address that, I needed you present. She's pissed because he was continuing to meet with her, but guess what...I suspect she has issues that transcend our relationship. That's not my specialty mind you, but I can see it because I've lived it for 18+ years. I guess I have some issues currently with sadness now that our divorce seems inevitable, but I imagine it is normal to grieve for the loss of one's marriage. Like everything else, hopefully these feelings too shall pass.

I'll take it one day at a time. I'm typing away my workout hours right now, so I guess I'll log off and limber up. I appreciate this forum. If nothing else, it helps to get my feelings out, and that brings me some measure of peace. LIL


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## Corpuswife

You are in the first stages of separating from your wife (not physically). The fact that you put "it's complicated" on FB and your wife was upset indicates this intial stage. 

Then you have to tell kids, friends, family, etc. Then you have to separate this and that. It's unraveling your marriage. I'm still in that process. Every thing is intertwined in our marriages...it's truly complicated.

It's like your wife doesn't "get it" or care. 

Your marriage is dying LIL and you'll grieve like you would for any death. Allow yourself some breathing room and relaxation. You sound like an intense person. Give youself time and patience to "let go."


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## lastinline

My life is friggin weird, and my wife is friggin worse. I invited her out for coffee on Friday night with the implicit request that we were just going to try to "spend some time together". I didn't want any serious discussion, as I wanted to see if we could reopen some channels of communication and reconnect. What a disaster.

Someone from our church was there so the first 5 minutes went ok, but after they left she immediately dropped the "how are we going to tell the kids question". I said "like anything else, you just tell them." My God, they are all pretty bright, it can't be that they haven't noticed that Mom and Dad no longer talk or do stuff together. She then goes on this tirade about "how if momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy". To which I responded, I haven't been happy in a friggin decade. I told her that I don't know who she is receiving her counsel from, but that it is dangerous. I am done making concessions until some are given in return. I simply informed her that she has nothing left she can take from me, my life gets better no matter how this thing breaks...hers not so much. 

I spoke with her mom about it, and she gave me the 80-20 talk. She said from her perspective it's about 20% me, 80% my wife, but urged me to "hang in there for the kids". She agreed my wife is depressed, and said that she needs to "put some purpose in her life." Her mom's words not mine, but the same sentiment nonetheless. I spoke with my business partner about my pending divorce as we have a morality clause in our business agreement, and assured him I haven't did anything to violate said clause. He was very supportive, and that was that.
How many times do you keep going back to the same well if there is no water? That's today's question class.


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## Loving Husband

It depends on you.. I refused to give up.. To me as long as there was no other people involved I would hang in their forever. Worst case I tell the kids I did my best.. She would have to explain why she didn't.. Now my wife s growing more then I ever thought she was capable.


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## dobo

It is like your wife doesn't know HOW to talk to you about the relationship so all she can talk about are the logistics. That's her overture into asking you to talk. She either has no feelings toward you specifically, or is so afraid of feelings in general that she simply cannot risk sharing her true emotions with you.

Has she always been this way? Emotionally closed off?

She really does need to go to counseling and to honestly open up about what she thinks, feels and wants. 

I wonder how much your matter-of-fact attitude is helping or hurting. I understand why you are doing it. But if there were any hope of getting her to discuss how she FEELS, it may be counter-productive.

Have you asked her how she feels about the pending divorce, if she wants it, and if she does not, why she hasn't said so and what she would be willing to do differently to prevent divorce?


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## MEM2020

After a decade of giving way more then you are getting. 

It is important to look at the full time horizon of your life. This situation is patently unhealthy. Over time it will shorten your life. Perhaps by a few years, maybe a decade. No one has the right to steal years of your life by overburdening you with work, stress and at the same time depriveing you of love. 

A married person has the right to preserve their health and longevity. 

When things are this imbalanced it really is that simple. 










dobo said:


> It is like your wife doesn't know HOW to talk to you about the relationship so all she can talk about are the logistics. That's her overture into asking you to talk. She either has no feelings toward you specifically, or is so afraid of feelings in general that she simply cannot risk sharing her true emotions with you.
> 
> Has she always been this way? Emotionally closed off?
> 
> She really does need to go to counseling and to honestly open up about what she thinks, feels and wants.
> 
> I wonder how much your matter-of-fact attitude is helping or hurting. I understand why you are doing it. But if there were any hope of getting her to discuss how she FEELS, it may be counter-productive.
> 
> Have you asked her how she feels about the pending divorce, if she wants it, and if she does not, why she hasn't said so and what she would be willing to do differently to prevent divorce?


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## lastinline

I wonder how much your matter-of-fact attitude is helping or hurting. I understand why you are doing it. But if there were any hope of getting her to discuss how she FEELS, it may be counter-productive.


It is both of those things dobo. That's why I can't abandon it, my "matter-of-fact attitude is the only real tool I have in my box. Up until now. she has relied on my overwhelming sense of commitment to "protect her" from poor behavior. She's felt insulated from repercussion because somehow "morally" I would be unable to petition for a divorce. Don't get me wrong, divorce is still a brutal decision for me and I would "pull back" from the brink with a simple apology, a promise to seek counseling, and a renewed desire to honor our vows. 

Sadly, every day that goes by like this I grow a little colder, a little more distant, and a little better adjusted to the idea of a life without my wife. I don't know where my fail-safe point is, but it's not far off. I can feel it. My wife is suffering tremendously, I can tell. She's was in her pj's until 2:30 on Saturday. Today she cancelled a lunch appointment with her friends, and "blew off" her therapy for her knee. She doesn't "feel comfortable" with seeing any health care providers I know, which limits our pool considerably. She cries at just about everytime we talk now and not even if we are discussing anything inflammatory, a simple "what's for dinner" will set her off. I hope she changes course, I truly do. LIL


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## lastinline

Hmmm, brought the little one into our bed last night. The kid wasn't sick or anything. I'm sure she did it to comfort herself. I guess it's not like anything ever happens there anymore. I am quasi convinced she has a think tank on retainer somewhere that she periodically consults with the eternal question :"what else could I do to piss him off?"

I find that I am growing easier with the notion of separation. The bank and paperwork is going to be a pain in the @ss though, and I'm going to take a 50-60k bath on my home. I've begun putting out feelers to see about my housing options as she wants to separate. I have no problem with this, but I won't leave until our house is sold. I refuse to go through the inconvenience and expense until then. Anyway lunch is over and the Dr.'s in.


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## dobo

I think you're quasi-wrong to think she's doing this "to" you. She's doing things for herself to survive as best she knows how.

I still find it odd that the two of you have no viable communication. You're on two completely different wavelengths. She appears completely helpless to affect a change. And you've had enough. 

It is possible that if you are willing to break her down far enough, that you could avoid divorce completely. But she'll have to reach her bottom to allow that to happen.


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## lastinline

dobo said:


> I think you're quasi-wrong to think she's doing this "to" you. She's doing things for herself to survive as best she knows how.
> 
> I still find it odd that the two of you have no viable communication. You're on two completely different wavelengths. She appears completely helpless to affect a change. And you've had enough.
> 
> It is possible that if you are willing to break her down far enough, that you could avoid divorce completely. But she'll have to reach her bottom to allow that to happen.


Uhm, she pretty much is "doing this to me" as she is the one with the aberrant behavior. "Survive", really dobo? She's not in friggin GITMO. Come on. She has myriad resources available to her social and otherwise. It's not a bad existence, and it's certainly a hell of a lot easier than what I do. As for the no viable communication and the helpless to affect change, that's the depression part that I've alluded to in previous posts.

I am not sure what your second paragraph means? She's already pretty busted up mentally, and frankly the less functional she becomes, the less desirable she is as a partner. Capable and independent is "sexy"; neurotic and emotionally labile is not. LIL


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## Corpuswife

I'm not sure LIL...

The fact that she won't get help. 

The fact that you suspect OM.

It seems you've reached the endpoint. 

Maybe separation will spur her to get help. This could be her catalyst. 

Depression is messy and selfish. As a physician you get to DX patients and RX meds. You have an idea of what it entails right? Living through it is another thing. I've had it for years....dysthmia. 

I put on a happy face to the outside and did my wifely/mommy duties well. Inside I was numb and unhappy. I was in constant search-mode to the reason why? Why was I so unhappy. 

I decided to do something about it. It took me 2 years, complete with suicidal thoughts, to come out of the fog. During that time...my focus was on my unhappy self.

It was hard work getting out of the pit. I've since apologized to my H. But it broke my marriage down. He tried to help but didn't know how. 

Fortunately, I got help and began working on myself (slowly).

I tell you these things as your wife MAY be experiencing the same.

We had a family crisis and it put my H over the edge. The market crashed (he's a financial guy) and he couldn't take it. I was over my depression at that point but now had his issues to deal with....depression more than likely. 

During my time of depression what would have helped?

If my H would have said "S...I love you and want to stand by you. I don't want anything to happen to our marriage. But, if you don't get help within the month then I am going to leave you." 

I truly believed that it would have spurred me to do something. I would have been angry maybe. It would be a wakeup call. I assumed that my H would ALWAYS be there-almost 25 years now. He could handle anything right? Now..I know better.

She may feel the same.


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## lastinline

I should be writing patient reports. I have maybe a half hour max to squander, if I'm even to get a minimal amount of training in this morning. This is why I think I need to end my marriage. The ratio of unhappy to happy is friggin off the charts. I'm constantly distracted sorting through the flotsam and jetsam of some recent converstation or argument. Last night she woke me up just to "push me away" as I had drifted onto her side of the bed. It wasn't intentional, and it certainly wasn't sexual in anyway. I just had the audacity to "brush" my foot against her while sleeping.

It's not spoken of much or wrote about to my knowledge in "the journals", but in my uneducated opinion, physical neglect is on par with physical abuse. I'm a 2nd degree black belt in TKD, and I will tell you that my body absorbs blows far better than my soul does. If anyone out there reading this regularly does this to their spouse, know that this is cruel beyond measure and stop, or for God's sake just let them go. LIL


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## lastinline

Sorry Atholk, I know I'm killing you with my "beta-maleness", but here's today's e-mail to my wife:

--- I will cut to the chase...do you want to save this marriage? Your counsel is poor. Your pals are not wise. They mean well, but they are answering from their heart and not their head. I would advise that you decide on your own, or that at least you seek fresh voices. Talk to Paster ----. He is a wise man, and I would abide by his opinion. What you forget ---, is that I am your friend as well. With the exception of your Mom, there is no one on this planet who has done more, or would do more for you than me. Yes ---, a real friend tells you the"difficult" things when you are "screwing up". A pal tells you what you want to hear because they don't want to make waves. I have no problem with waves, because I have your greater interest at heart. "if momma's not happy...really?" I'm friggin amazed you could even utter such a statement. We are supposed to be equals. I value your happiness, but not above my own. I will work for you, and I will care for you, but I will not cater to you.

You need to go into grief couseling for -----'s death. After she died you really "checked out". I don't think you ever resolved things following your Dad's passing, but after --- and her family died, you've "really been someone else". My life has become sureal, everything from ---'s wife coming to my office with her claims of affair, to seeing you drunk in the bathtub throwing up, to just being frozen out from your love and affections. I am not your enemy. I am your husband. I will simplify this down...I don't, and haven't felt loved by you for sometime ---. This is not acceptable in a marriage. I understand you're depressed, but you have to take the steps now to fix this. I don't want to, but I will leave you. I grew up with an unstable mother, and I can't fathom growing old with an unstable wife. You need help ---. Your deductable is met for the year. You have absolutely no excuses... get help. You may not see it at the moment, but I do love you.

---

Am I missing anything? This is my last fall back position. If she doesn't respond, if she doesn't do anything, there is nothing left to do but "blow the bridge", and get the "F" out of this marriage. LIL


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## dobo

I am starting to question whether you really do love her any longer. You say that the less functional she becomes (because you pushed this into crisis mode -- not blaming you, but you must admit that you pushed things to where they are -- and I agree they had to go to this level) the less desirable she is as a mate. Well, if that's your attitude, you're creating a self-fulfilling prophesy. You want out. You just don't have the stuff (yet) to do it. 

She has to completely fall apart before she is going to seek the kind of help she needs. She's either proud or clueless, and honestly I'm not sure which. You attribute her behavior to other people's counsel and you think she is doing things "to" you, but you're clearly not seeing her with any compassion and you are jumping to conclusions about her motivations and behavior. If anything were going to push someone farther away from another person, it is that kind of response.

Do YOU want to save this marriage? 

You are going to have to offer openings for her to go to you, broken down, but asking for help or understanding or time or something. And those openings are going to have to be something that she recognizes and can relate to. I'm not sure talking at her in your emails are effective. You tell her what to do and what she is thinking or feeling. 

I think the only positive thing I see is that you asked her what she wants. 

When I encouraged you to man up with her, I didn't expect you to go 180 degrees. 

If you can't show compassion for her, perhaps it is best you go for the divorce. She's hurting. Because you are hurting too, you weigh your hurt over hers. And it has nothing to do with the lifestyle you provide. This is about her insides, not about the trappings.


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## lastinline

dobo said:


> I am starting to question whether you really do love her any longer. You say that the less functional she becomes (because you pushed this into crisis mode -- not blaming you, but you must admit that you pushed things to where they are -- and I agree they had to go to this level) the less desirable she is as a mate. Well, if that's your attitude, you're creating a self-fulfilling prophesy. You want out. You just don't have the stuff (yet) to do it.
> 
> She has to completely fall apart before she is going to seek the kind of help she needs. She's either proud or clueless, and honestly I'm not sure which. You attribute her behavior to other people's counsel and you think she is doing things "to" you, but you're clearly not seeing her with any compassion and you are jumping to conclusions about her motivations and behavior. If anything were going to push someone farther away from another person, it is that kind of response.
> 
> Do YOU want to save this marriage?
> 
> You are going to have to offer openings for her to go to you, broken down, but asking for help or understanding or time or something. And those openings are going to have to be something that she recognizes and can relate to. I'm not sure talking at her in your emails are effective. You tell her what to do and what she is thinking or feeling.
> 
> I think the only positive thing I see is that you asked her what she wants.
> 
> When I encouraged you to man up with her, I didn't expect you to go 180 degrees.
> 
> If you can't show compassion for her, perhaps it is best you go for the divorce. She's hurting. Because you are hurting too, you weigh your hurt over hers. And it has nothing to do with the lifestyle you provide. This is about her insides, not about the trappings.


Really Donna? You tell me to feign an affair...that's sensible to you? I want her to know she has to fish or cut bait. I will go with her either way, at this point I have no relationship with my wife, and thus sadly, nothing to loose. Money can always be earned, things can be replaced. Not so much with life, when it's used up it's gone. Maybe I owe ingrid an apology, a person does deserve something out of a marriage. I don't need happiness, at least not right away, what's another 6 months or a year after a decade of waiting. LIL


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## dobo

You are really hostile now. You were hurt and angry before but that's changed. You don't see like someone who will go either way with her. I'm sure it feels even less likely to her.

What was her answer to your question about wanting the marriage? Did she answer you? Ask her point blank to her face instead of in an email. And then begin acting on that answer.

You can *always* pull back from the brink of divorce. But, you have to actually want to pull back and you don't seem like you want to anymore. 

The affair idea was to see if she cares for YOU and not just your money.

Right now, we still don't know what she cares about.

If you are going to push her and she is going to fall apart, you have to actually accept that she's going to fall apart and that it may take a complete breakdown for her to choose marriage and you. But if you cant' stand her broken down, then you will never get the outcome where she chooses you. And in that case, it is cruel to continue.


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## lastinline

I looked it up dobo, hostile and angry are actually synonyms. Nothing has really changed I'm afraid, but your perception of my situation. I have asked her point blank about wanting to "work" for our marriage, and in response to my recent "unholy" campaign, I have finally gotten an answer. She has decided she wants to work to improve our marriage, and has agreed to counseling as a couple. She has also agreed to seek help for her depression. 

I do love my wife. Anyone who knows me well can see how much hurt this whole ordeal has caused me. However, I love her enough to grab her by the short hairs and try to stop her from self-destructing and really F-ing up her life, our kid's lives, and my life as well. I would hope that had our roles been reversed, she would have done the same for me. Anyway, Atholk loves my beta-male letters to my wife so here is today's:

I think the counseling is an awesome decision, ---. I don't want to stay at war with you. Our lives are pretty much inseparable at this point, and the best way out of this mess for both of us is together. I see that. Let's lay down our weapons, our cruel words, our willful neglect, and work to fix this thing starting today. I've sent you a truck load of e-mails saying what I need from our relationship. Send me one telling me what you need, or better still tell me tonight. Be clear and concise ---, or obscure and verbose. It doesn't matter to me, just let me know what your intentions and desires are. I will do my best to meet your needs. I just need to know what they are. 

---


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## MEM2020

This is a very good step LIL. I do think the biggest issue you have is that you feel you have been ill treated for a decade. That is a lot of baggage. I think it is fair for her to say what she wants - in fact I think she MUST say what she wants. 

I also think that she is doing this because she knows that her life gets complicated if you divorce her. And I think at this point, from what you describe, she is not sure what she wants. She sure isn't nice or compassionate to you. 

You know - I have thought about this a bit. 






lastinline said:


> I looked it up dobo, hostile and angry are actually synonyms. Nothing has really changed I'm afraid, but your perception of my situation. I have asked her point blank about wanting to "work" for our marriage, and in response to my recent "unholy" campaign, I have finally gotten an answer. She has decided she wants to work to improve our marriage, and has agreed to counseling as a couple. She has also agreed to seek help for her depression.
> 
> I do love my wife. Anyone who knows me well can see how much hurt this whole ordeal has caused me. However, I love her enough to grab her by the short hairs and try to stop her from self-destructing and really F-ing up her life, our kid's lives, and my life as well. I would hope that had our roles been reversed, she would have done the same for me. Anyway, Atholk loves my beta-male letters to my wife so here is today's:
> 
> I think the counseling is an awesome decision, ---. I don't want to stay at war with you. Our lives are pretty much inseparable at this point, and the best way out of this mess for both of us is together. I see that. Let's lay down our weapons, our cruel words, our willful neglect, and work to fix this thing starting today. I've sent you a truck load of e-mails saying what I need from our relationship. Send me one telling me what you need, or better still tell me tonight. Be clear and concise ---, or obscure and verbose. It doesn't matter to me, just let me know what your intentions and desires are. I will do my best to meet your needs. I just need to know what they are.
> 
> ---


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## lastinline

Thanks Mem11363, you are right she doesn't know what she wants. I probably don't either. I moved in her direction yesterday in response to her agreement for counseling, and was very conciliatory in my general approach with her. Her response to "nice" you ask? She friggin launched the worst "Battle of the Buldge" type offensive of our marriage. Every dog, clinic, money, kids, time argument was regurgitated yet again until I just got up out of our bed. I could go on, but it's pointless. The whole relationship is pointless. I'm getting a place. I'm getting a divorce. I'm getting peace. She can have all the money, but she can't have me. She doesn't own me...not anymore. She doesn't deserve me. I'm signing the death certificate on this marriage. Time of death: 11:37 pm 11/12/09 Cause of death: spousal neglect. I'm out. LIL


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## dobo

You've been missing my point completely, I'm afraid.

Things have to get worse before they get better. That's how bottoms work. In order to deal with someone who has a problem, you have to be patient enough to wait for their bottom. Since you've forced things into a crisis (an appropriate move) you have to wait for her to recognize her bottom. Only then can things improve. 

Do you know anything about dealing with alcoholics, for instance?

Well, I guess it doesn't matter because either you're serious and it is over or you're upset and you don't mean it. 

I think maybe the damage is too deep for you to handle any more. You want immediate improvement and that's just not likely for anyone, including your wife, in such a situation. She has layers to get through to even reach the surface and we still don't know if she's bottomed.


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## lastinline

Things are pretty bad dobo. I got a room Friday night and didn't come home for the first time ever in 18+ years of marriage. I told my wife where I was, and she felt compelled to actually call and check. Go figure.

I took out additional monies from our clinic and was going to set up some sort of living arrangement, but my kids called my cell on Saturday morning. They were sad that I didn't come home, and said that they really missed me. I felt like an @ss for walking out, because I only suceeded in hurting my kids. I came home following practice at about 1:00pm. I hate my wife and love my kids. I guess I'm stuck. I'm fresh out of ideas.

I don't know anything about alcholics dobo, or "hitting bottom" either, whatever the h*ll that means. I don't believe bottom exists. Things can always be "a little better" or "a little worse". My universe exists on a continuum. LIL


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## dobo

I'm sorry to hear of the latest news. 

What did she say when you came back? Anything positive? Did she put the kids up to calling you? 

Have you talked to the kids about what is going on? 

Has your wife made any motions toward getting help? 

You can't remain stuck in between your wife and the kids. It isn't good for you and it isn't good for the kids.


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## MEM2020

Dobo,

Underneath his anger - which is very great - LIL truly deeply loves his wife. 

Underneath her anger - which is very great - how can we know what she feels? 

It does not seem that she feels love for him. It seems she lacks love. And because of that she wants to maintain the status quo which is that he pays for everything, and asks almost nothing from her. 

If she really loved him - under the anger - she would fight for this marriage. Instead it feels like she is just bullying him to get him to accept the status quo. 

Finding forgiveness seems much easier then recreating love. 





dobo said:


> You've been missing my point completely, I'm afraid.
> 
> Things have to get worse before they get better. That's how bottoms work. In order to deal with someone who has a problem, you have to be patient enough to wait for their bottom. Since you've forced things into a crisis (an appropriate move) you have to wait for her to recognize her bottom. Only then can things improve.
> 
> Do you know anything about dealing with alcoholics, for instance?
> 
> Well, I guess it doesn't matter because either you're serious and it is over or you're upset and you don't mean it.
> 
> I think maybe the damage is too deep for you to handle any more. You want immediate improvement and that's just not likely for anyone, including your wife, in such a situation. She has layers to get through to even reach the surface and we still don't know if she's bottomed.


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## lastinline

Good question dobo, she said hello -----, as if nothing had happened when I returned. I honestly don't think she "put the kids up" to calling me though, but they are stressed about our current situation. The tension in our house is palpable. I slept in our room last night. However, it sucks more sleeping in my bed than in some other room in our house, because the "three feet between us" really hits home the state of our overall marriage.

I was briefly happy yesterday that she came to clinic to have her knee treated as she had been missing the last two or so weeks of therapy. However, my cell rang about thrity minutes later, and she informed me that she had helped herself to 80 bucks out of my wallet while she was in our break room. She didn't have time to go to the ATM and still "make lunch" with whomever. It's like she thinks of things to mess with me. I could care less about the money. We have always shared funds, and whats hers is mine and visa versa. However, it's the taking and not asking part that I don't care for. This is new to our relationship. In the past she would have been considerate enough to ask, now she just does it. It's as if she doesn't care, and yet she's pissed if I mention we are having marital troubles to anyone. She also routinely checks my email and my cell history. I guess she's forgotten that she was the one with the fidelity issues, not me. Does anyone remember a song by "The Clash" off "Combat Rock" titled "Should I Stay or Should I go?" I wish she'd stop sending mixed signals and tell me. LIL


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## GreenandBlue

My wife did the same thing in the months following her infidelity. She thought I would pay her back. She would check up on me to see if I was really where I said I was. This was perfect justice to me. I didn't get dirty and seek revenge. However, the fact that she stressed over that possibility and cared enough to check up on me was good for my ego and was the minimum of what she deserved.


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## dobo

Since your change in attitude, she's looking for an external reason to explain it. An obvious reason would be that you found someone else and you are looking to end the marriage for this other woman. 

She's going to be very sad when she figures out that SHE is the reason you are strongly considering divorce. She did it. It is about her. She failed the marriage. This is something that she just can't get her head around at the moment. 

It might be interesting if you also gave her all of your account info to email, etc. and tell her to have at it so she can see that the sole reason for the sorry state of your marriage is HER.

And yeah, it wasn't cool that she didn't ask about the money. But she's afraid to engage you in any way that reminds her that she is dependent on you. That reality is just too frightening to her.

She's got some major issues, this one.

I wonder how she'd respond if you asked her if she's thought about how her life would change if you divorced, and how she would handle things like finances and living arrangements and the kids. It is as though she's in denial. She sees what is going on but she doesn't see it.


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## lastinline

Your comments make sense dobo about her checking up on me and all, but I really am incapable of infidelity. After 22 years together, I would have thought she'd know me a little better by now. If I divorce her, I'm not sure if I can remarry, or have a legitimate relationship with another woman in the eyes of God. This is a concern to me.

I'm talking to my friend who is a Bishop about this, and he says infidelity is an acceptable reason for divorce. He's counseled me that forgiveness is the better path if she shows remorse. His take/Jesus' take was that infidelity does not demand divorce, it simply allows for it. It was only put there as a concession because of the hardness of man's heart. Sadly, my heart is hard.

My head has cleared, and I can think again with clarity. My instructor even commented that I'm smiling again. I crushed both of his assistants last night sparring. I feel better. I'm focusing better on the floor, and even some of my patients have noted that I seem like my old self. Some of the more perceptive ones, (old women mostly), have figured my situation out. How do you people friggin do that? I guess I don't read people that well...so much for my career as a professional poker player. LIL


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## dobo

I often wonder if God sees my second marriage as legitimate. And it bothers me. There were no Biblically acceptable reasons for my divorce so... But I can definitely relate to your concern in this area. 

I think you are in the clear with her apparent infidelity.

I'm also glad that you're feeling better. Does this mean that you've resolved to divorce her?

As far as her not knowing that you are incapable of infidelity, there are a couple of things to consider : (1) is that everyone is capable but they don't know it until it happens but more on point in this situation is (2) if she did it, she cannot imagine that you wouldn't do it, too. A lot of people imagine that everyone else thinks exactly as they do and cannot escape that thinking. It is one of the reasons why kooky people are so fun to play with because they are so predictable in what they expect from you. Don't give it to them and they're completely lost and will try to bait you in another way, expecting the result to be as they predict. So you get them again.


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## lastinline

Based on all the information in front of me dobo, divorce is the inevitable destination of our marriage. It's pointless to consume myself with worry or grief over a situation I can't effect. I have come to the conclusion that my wife is a very depressed woman and going through some sort of life crisis. I imagine she had hoped she'd accomplish more with her life by now. Who is to say. 

I honestly think life is about more than a fat curriculum vitae. On paper, my life is an A-. In reality, it's more of a C+. I think achievement for achievment's sake alone, is just one of life's cleverer little lies. At the end of the day, letters at the end of your name don't make you any happier. They are cool though when you make dinner reservations. I do believe we get seated faster at restaurants, but that's about the only perk.

As I have said, at this point there is very little I can do to control the situation, thus in my estimation it is pointless for me to fret. I have begun to separate myself emotionally from her. I have basically stopped any attempts at physical contact, and I have begun to place her on a secondary, or tertiary level in my life. I have given her carte blanche to do as she pleases. However, she insists on telling me now, more than ever where she's going. Once again, go figure.

Don't get me wrong, I care, but I can't continue to care like I did. You can't make someone love you. Ironically though, I saw she is now reading "Nights in Rodanthe". I noticed it on her night stand 2 days ago. Someone out there, tell me that this is any different than finding a Hustler or Swank magazine tucked away in some dark seedy corner of the garage. Well, I should be glad to see that at least she is still fantasizing about sleeping with Dr.'s. Hmmm, I guess once you've had quack you can never go back. LIL


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## lastinline

My Friday nights suck now. My spouse invited over every girl on the planet to spend the night with my daughters. Movies, food, games, ect., with the workup to this afternoon where they go to see the new friggin Twilight movie. 

Two problems though, first, my 8th grader is getting a "C" in math, so no friends are supposed to be over for her. OOOPS. Perhaps worse, my 6th grader who is an awesome student, is only 11. We have/had a rule about watching/previewing PG-13 movies for our kids and deciding afterwards if they are appropriate. I guess that's gone. That's one large problem I can see already with her as a single parent for some of my kids. She is way too permissive.

This is blatant child bribery, and jockeying for parental favor. I guess I can expect more of the same, but I had hoped she'd operate from a more noble position than this. The oldest two are definitely mine, and the youngest two hers. It's our middle two who are still in play. Gotta get that child support, nice job wifey. LIL


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## StrongEnough

She wants to appear as the fun parent. She is trying to be their friend. Just wait though, long term, the kids will lose respect for her.


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## lastinline

I called my family back in Minnesota yesterday and told them that I'm getting a divorce. I said the specifics haven't been worked out, but the destination has been pretty much selected. I admonished them for their questions. Even my own mother asked me if I was having an affair. I guess she's watched too much General Hospital. No extra "house calls" on my end.

Today I got a pressing phone call from an old Pastor friend of mine who said he "felt he had to call me." Wow, my first supernatural experience. Anyway, he said he would arrange for us to start counseling, and that he would assign one of the elder women to do a little mentoring with my wife. This is good. LIL


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## Corpuswife

LIL:

Do you and your wife share the same beliefs?

I believe that some good Christian counseling may be a way to soften up this marriage. Get back on track to how the Lord see things.


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## lastinline

Corpuswife said:


> LIL:
> 
> Do you and your wife share the same beliefs?
> 
> I believe that some good Christian counseling may be a way to soften up this marriage. Get back on track to how the Lord see things.


Sadly, no. My wife really doesn't believe. To her, the Bible is more of a "collection of stories" than the spoken word of God. She likes church, but more for the fellowship than the scholarship. I am just the opposite. To me every sermon is like going to school. 

We have been in small Bible groups together, and she almost never engages in the discussion, because she really doesn't know scipture well. This is an area where I really have failed my wife. I have been a poor spiritual leader for her as she has a gentler spirit than I do, and I maintain a very exacting standard. I should have tried to do a better job of meeting her where she was at, rather than expecting her to be where I was. I should have set a more compassionate and loving example of Christianity. I guess I know scripture well, I'm just not as good at living it. LIL


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## MEM2020

This is good. IF she listens to an elder mentor - maybe just maybe she will come out of this crazy state and commit to working with you to save the marriage. 




lastinline said:


> I called my family back in Minnesota yesterday and told them that I'm getting a divorce. I said the specifics haven't been worked out, but the destination has been pretty much selected. I admonished them for their questions. Even my own mother asked me if I was having an affair. I guess she's watched too much General Hospital. No extra "house calls" on my end.
> 
> Today I got a pressing phone call from an old Pastor friend of mine who said he "felt he had to call me." Wow, my first supernatural experience. Anyway, he said he would arrange for us to start counseling, and that he would assign one of the elder women to do a little mentoring with my wife. This is good. LIL


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## lastinline

MEM11363, or maybe she will just continue to be crazy. Last night she said she "wasn't sure" if she'd be attending our corporate Christmas party. I said what's hard about that, good food, good company, presents. She said she'll have to "think about it". it's her "birthday weekend." I didn't realize we were getting weekends for that now. I guess I missed the memo. Her mom is even going to be at the party, so to not have my spouse there is well...awkward. Anyway, when asked about her conspicuous absence, and asked I will be; it will make a fine time for me to publicly announce our pending divorce. 

LIL


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## Corpuswife

I see LIL. I was like your wife. In fact, I was an agnostic for many years. I gradually came around. 

I have regrets also. If only we could go back right? Undo the damage that we did. It wasn't THAT severe but I've made mistakes and was selfish at times.

I've gained peace over the past year. Something that is missing with my husband. My h's ability to process and work through issues is severely handicapped. Either he's fearful of looking inward or he's unskilled. I'm not sure.

It's amazing after almost 25 years of marriage how you can fail to know someone.


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## lastinline

"It's amazing after almost 25 years of marriage how you can fail to know someone." 

Wow Corpuswife it's only 18+ in my case, but truer words have seldom been spoken. At the end, it's like I never even knew her at all. She is not the same girl I fell in love with. At times, it's hard for me to even fathom as to how she got where she is. It's really rather sad. She really has fallen.

I'm starting to find my peace as well, Corpuswife. I still feel awful for what might have been, and what should have been. However, a limb can only bleed so long before it has to be removed. If I stay with her, I know I won't physically die, but I feel my soul will. LIL


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## Corpuswife

Start nurturing your soul now. Don't let it die. You don't have to wait for a separation or divorce. Make THAT your priority and peace will follow.

Changes will take place if you are willing to live a life in which GOD is in control. I fought against that one....

LIL. We have many of the same beliefs regarding marriage and loyalty. It must be extremely painful to get to this point of wanting out? I respect that you don't take this lightly.


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## lastinline

Today I had a cancellation which allowed me an opportunity to meet with my wife at her gym. It's literally across the street from my clinic. Anyway, to my horror there she was playing friggin raquetball with two men on a knee that's 10 1/2 weeks s/p ACL reconstruction. Just in case you don't have a strong ortho background this is border line insanity, but it illustrates well her overall poor judgement. She wasn't expecting me of course, so she was quite surprised when I tapped on the glass.

I am so friggin tired of this woman. She's 40, and she knows her surgical precautions, but she just "wanted to play." WTF, there are a lot of things I want, like a loving wife for instance, or a divorce. It doesn't mean that I'll get them. What is it that happens to people that causes them to become so reckless with their health? For the record, had it been any of my patient's doing this at that point post-op, I would have chewed their @ss as well. No favorites here. LIL


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## Corpuswife

No excuses LIL. It may just be that she craves the same type of escape that you do via your martial arts. She just couldn't wait! 

Did you speak with each other at the gym? What were you expecting when you went to the gym?


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## lastinline

Thanksgiving wasn't all that. Her drunk uncle wanted to have a conversation in front of my kids about my marital problems. Nice. Classy guy. Well, I guess that means it's common knowledge now on her side too. I guess her mom must have talked. People sure do love gossip. 

My marriage is in a weird state of limbo, and I hate it. It's not quite dead, but it's certainly not alive. We barely talk. We don't touch. Sex is nonexistent. She sometimes cooks. I pay bills, and that's about it. On the upside, I still get to see my kids. I just feel so disconnected to my wife. Her birthday is this Friday, but in all honesty, I can't imagine I'll take her anywhere. I'm just so unhappy with the whole thing. Some days aren't so bad, some days aren't so good. I guess that's just where I'm at right now. Can anyone identify with this?


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## Corpuswife

LIL...boy can I identify witht he LIMBO thing!

When my H said he was no longer "in love" with me, I was FIGHTING to keep our marriage together. He never told me he was unhappy until this point. Then, I was trying to meet him half way and work on the marriage. The problem he was already detached and was going through the motions. I could tell he was already gone (hindsight). 

Then, for the next 5 months I struggled to make it right. You name it! I was in LIMBO as I wasn't sure if I could gain the "in love" feelings that he lost. He couldn't muster the strength to want it as well. He finally uttered the D word.

Finally, after an additional 4 months of knowing that he wanted a divorce but hoping he'd changed his mind. He was full of mixed messages but the words out of his mouth didn't match. I kept thinking...."he's going to turn around soon." He didn't. I was in LIMBO not knowing what he was going to do. He wanted a divorce but took NO action to move on the words.

In July we separated. I used this an an opportunity to have no contact except kids/mutual business. I was going to show him what divorce felt like. I was in LIMBO waiting. He hadn't filed?

In Sept. we met. He wanted to file. He did the next week. LIMBO was over right? NO. I kept thinking this divorce action was going to wake him up. He was friendly. He still said he loved me. He complimented me. He still wanted the divorce. 

Now. We have our final court date at Jan. 6. It's my surreal life. I don't do LIMBO anymore. I can't. It hurts too much and frankly..it's pitiful. 

You'll have plenty of up and down LIL. It's part of the process of disconnecting.

Keep praying.


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## lastinline

Corpuswife, part of me hopes that there will be some sort of detente. That her heart will change, that she will realize what she is loosing. However, this doesn't seem to be the case. One of my business partners suggested that I take some of my dividends and establish a separate bank account, so I can prepare to set up a second household. It makes sense on paper, but it strikes me as unethical. Our expenditures have been going through the friggin roof. It seems like whatever I put in our account evaporates, hair clothes, ect. It's frustrating.

I didn't even work out this morning. I'm distracted. I've become dangerous on the mat for the same reason. I gave my senior instructor 19 stitches to his superior orbit after sweeping his inside leg while we were grappling over a staff about two weeks ago. I felt like an @ss. I consider him a friend. I almost took out another assistants throat with a side kick after a board break last week. I stopped about 1/3 of an inch short. Granted his head strayed, but I was oblivious to it, and it would have seriously hurt perhaps killed him. I'm thinking about hanging up the sparring until I get my head together. 

I'm sleeping more which is unusual for me, and I feel agitated. I know I'm depressed about my marriage. I just feel so alone, and caring for others needs right now is draining. It's just not in me. Clinically, I'm as effective as ever. I'm just detached. That's not me. I have been trying to funnel new patients over to my partners. They have been very understanding. I will try to be more grateful that I have people like this in my life. LIL


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## Corpuswife

LIL: I have given my marriage to GOD at this point. Nothing I've done, as you read, has worked. It's purely exhausting at this point. I feel like the village idiot.....I gave up about a month ago and it's freeing. 

You have to WORK your way to that point (giving up). It's nothing that you plan but it just happens.

My H and I, since separation, have shared the same accounts with no money moved to an individual account. I agree with the ethics of it. I called for transparency during the separation. It's worked so far. 

If you want to set up a single account it may appear "slick" and will make her defensive. 

How about separate bedrooms? I know you'd have to tell the kids something is up. Nothing wrong with letting the kids know that mom and dad are having problems and need space. You would be surprised how much better you are able to sleep.


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## lastinline

Corpuswife, I actually like sleeping in the same room with her, but I know what you mean about sleeping better without her. I have tried to spare our kids the "gory details" of our marital demise, but my kids are very sharp and have definitely picked up on things. 

I agree with you about transparency. I think honesty always works to your advantage. What kills me is that for the life of me I cannot figure out what she's looking for, other than it's not me. She has been very adamant that she is not looking for another husband. "I'll never marry again." She's "just tired" whatever the f*ck that means. 

Tonights jazz workshop night. She just called to say she'd be home at 11:30 or so. Nice...I don't think I am going to give up sparring just yet. Practice starts at 7:10. I think I'm going to go hit something. Not a good night to meet me on the floor. LIL


----------



## Corpuswife

LIL: She probably doesn't know what she's looking for...

My H is the same. He made statements "not happy" and "not attracted" and "I love you but no longer in love." Whatever. 

To this day, over a year later, I don't have any more insight. It will eat you up trying to figure this out.

If you can sleep in the same room..great! I couldn't as I was always looking at him and thinking. He spent the nights trying to ignore me with a pillow over his head. No touching allowed. He was guarded. Prior to the "bombshell" he couldn't keep his hands off of me until year 23 or so.

I wouldn't give up your physical activities..it keeps you sane.


----------



## lastinline

My life is friggin surreal. I let the cat into the garage this morning before I left to go workout. I didn't want to stop at the ATM this morning so I figured I'd mooch a few bucks from my wife's purse. When low and behold there were all of these strip club "sink the pink" passes tucked under her purse from the night before's supposed "Jazz Workshop".

I'll be honest. I don't care for jazz. I never have, I can't work out to it, so it's useless to me. However, if I'd known that they give lap dances now at these Jazz Workshops, hell that would of changed everything. 

She woke me up around 11:30 last night when she got in. She seemed reluctant to let me touch her. This is more and more the norm. Please don't tell me why. I am smart enough to figure this one out myself. 

However, I have absolutely no idea who this woman is anymore. I have read with some amusement other posts about women being attracted to Alpha male this and Alpha male that, but physically I'm about as Alpha as it gets. I am very physically fit. I am good looking, and I have "sick" hand to hand combat skills.

If you were looking for an animal definition of a man by appearance, I could easily meet and exceed it. If you met me on the street you would either guess that I was a military officer or cop, but I am telling you flat out my wife is not attracted to that Alpha image. At least not anymore. She seems more interested in the awkward artsy types.

Is it common for spouses when they rebound to go 180 degrees in the opposite direction when choosing their next partner or f*ck buddy, or am I just uniquely lucky this way? LIL


----------



## COFLgirl

Corpuswife said:


> LIL: She probably doesn't know what she's looking for...
> 
> My H is the same. He made statements "not happy" and "not attracted" and "I love you but no longer in love." Whatever.
> 
> To this day, over a year later, I don't have any more insight. It will eat you up trying to figure this out.
> 
> If you can sleep in the same room..great! I couldn't as I was always looking at him and thinking. He spent the nights trying to ignore me with a pillow over his head. No touching allowed. He was guarded. Prior to the "bombshell" he couldn't keep his hands off of me until year 23 or so.
> 
> I wouldn't give up your physical activities..it keeps you sane.


Corpuswife, I rarely post here but come to read from time to time. I've read a lot of your story about the demise of your marriage and I'm so sorry for your pain. (((hugs)))

You might have answered this before somewhere and I missed it, but do you think there is a chance your H had an affair at some point and that is why he pushed for the divorce? I see some similarities to what you describe to what happened in my marriage last year. My husband suddenly began really pushing for a divorce. We had been having some conflicts, but nothing that warranted a divorce. 

Eventually it came out that he had had an affair. My H figured it would be the end of our marriage if I ever found out so he decided to 'spare us' the pain and explored the idea of divorcing me without disclosing the truth.

CW, I'm not trying to make you feel worse and obviously no two situations are the same but most of the time, people don't divorce without a good reason. Especially when it is quite sudden.

The fact that you say your H was 'all over you' for 23 years and then suddenly backed off and dropped the D bombshell makes me think there is more he isn't telling you. Much more. 

What do you think?

LIL, sorry for the t/j.


----------



## Corpuswife

LIL: I am not sure about the alpha thing. I think she looking for something else. The problem is that you'll be analyzing this for awhile. Remember, they often don't know "why?" It's more about how they FEEL. Their feelings often don't match logic.

COFLgirl: Thanks for the read. I would say almost zero percent chance of my H cheating. Never has cheated and I have seen no indication pre or post separation. Wears wedding band faithfully etc. Friends and family agree at this point. At first they were questioning. My H and I are similiar in honesty and loyalty. We are on the same moral page so-to-speak.


----------



## MEM2020

LIL,
Let me ask you something? Do you think your wife got overwhelmed by the workload of taking care of 6 kids. When that happened do you think your frustration / disappointment with her lack of work ethic/determination was obvious to her?

I wonder if perhaps she knew she was struggling in some sense and resented the fact that you were aware of it and disappointed with her. I guess I am wondering if a lot of her issues with you might have to do with what she believes is your perception of her. 

Does that make any sense?




lastinline said:


> My life is friggin surreal. I let the cat into the garage this morning before I left to go workout. I didn't want to stop at the ATM this morning so I figured I'd mooch a few bucks from my wife's purse. When low and behold there were all of these strip club "sink the pink" passes tucked under her purse from the night before's supposed "Jazz Workshop".
> 
> I'll be honest. I don't care for jazz. I never have, I can't work out to it, so it's useless to me. However, if I'd known that they give lap dances now at these Jazz Workshops, hell that would of changed everything.
> 
> She woke me up around 11:30 last night when she got in. She seemed reluctant to let me touch her. This is more and more the norm. Please don't tell me why. I am smart enough to figure this one out myself.
> 
> However, I have absolutely no idea who this woman is anymore. I have read with some amusement other posts about women being attracted to Alpha male this and Alpha male that, but physically I'm about as Alpha as it gets. I am very physically fit. I am good looking, and I have "sick" hand to hand combat skills.
> 
> If you were looking for an animal definition of a man by appearance, I could easily meet and exceed it. If you met me on the street you would either guess that I was a military officer or cop, but I am telling you flat out my wife is not attracted to that Alpha image. At least not anymore. She seems more interested in the awkward artsy types.
> 
> Is it common for spouses when they rebound to go 180 degrees in the opposite direction when choosing their next partner or f*ck buddy, or am I just uniquely lucky this way? LIL


----------



## lastinline

MEM11363 said:


> LIL,
> Let me ask you something? Do you think your wife got overwhelmed by the workload of taking care of 6 kids. When that happened do you think your frustration / disappointment with her lack of work ethic/determination was obvious to her?
> 
> I wonder if perhaps she knew she was struggling in some sense and resented the fact that you were aware of it and disappointed with her. I guess I am wondering if a lot of her issues with you might have to do with what she believes is your perception of her.
> 
> Does that make any sense?


MEM11363, "overwhelmed" would seem the logical guess, "6 kids my God", but it's not the correct one. For the last three years, she has had only one kid at home with her during the day, and it's been the last three years or so, that our marriage has started to free-fall. 

Trust me when I say that she is not home all day cleaning. I clean more than her. She cooks, does some laundry, and that's about it. You were much closer when you suggested it may have more to do with my perception of her. She is NOT an equal partner. She doesn't put in a FULL DAY. She never takes one for the team. She basically has got caught up with this social "play" crowd, and she's screwing up big time. It's almost as if she's in high school again. We met when we are 18. Married at 21. We're 40 now. I grew up. I thought she had as well, but she's done the Peter Pan thing these last few years.

I will be as honest with you as I have been with her. I don't respect her. I can't. Respect is earned. There was a time when I respected her, loved her, and cherished her more than life itself, but that time is not now. I am not even sure I even love her. I know my feelings are not what they were. It's hard to have love without respect. It's like trying to make chocolate chip cookies without chocolate chips.

I have performed her job. I have performed my job. There are advantages to being her and for being me. We weren't placed into our roles randomly, we both chose them. She always wanted to be a mom. I sort of fell into what I'm doing because I excelled in college, and this is what 'smart people" do. I always wanted to stay in the service and get my commission, but she "rescued" me from that particular dream.

I am good at what I do, but I would be good at just about anything short of child birth. If you are going to do something do it right or don't do it at all. Yoda was right. There is no try. She is more of a do it until you can sweep the rest of it under the rug sort of person.

She literally laughs at my core values: honor, valor, commitment, sacrifice, duty, integrity, selflessness. She sees them as weakness, but they are all that has kept me in this marriage. Everything is negotiable with her. Very little is negotiable with me. I'm rigid. She's a wh0re. Nuf' said. LIL


----------



## Corpuswife

LIL: Don't hold onto your anger too long. It will eat you up inside and stunt our growth (emotional/spiritual).

If you continue living in the house, with her, you will need to step back and gain peace. Let things go as they ARE...not what you want or need. Accept that her capacity for the kind of woman that you want isn't there and may never be.

You see yourself rigid and her soft. That is a HUGE difference. Has it always been this way?


----------



## lastinline

CW, I will take your advice about "stepping back" as best I can. It's just so hard to have her "there", and yet for her not to be "there". That being said, I have really strived this week to be extraordinarily civil. She is at a place where "nice" makes her nervous. It could be guilt on her part. Who knows.

However, it has allowed communication to open back up and this has some practical benefits. It hopefully will allow this "process" to expedite once it begins after Christmas. I do not think we can reconcile at this point. The vehicle of our marriage has sustained too much structural damage. It's totaled. Sorry, Aligator Man.

To answer your last question CW, yes the "rigid"/"soft" thing has always been this way. It just used to work for some reason. It just used to balance. There was a harmony in our differences that made us stronger. Now it just rips us apart. No synergy here. At least not anymore. LIL


----------



## lastinline

Where do you go after posting anyone? I feel this forum has been helpful to vent and get my thoughts in order, but what does one do to heal?

I am already:
training physically, have done so vigorously for entire adult life
reading the Bible and other spiritual materials
reading relationship books to diagnose what went wrong with me/her
talking to others
have a "consuming" hobby which is also quite physical
working in a rewarding job
recontacting family and people from past

What else has really worked for anyone out there, and how do you get rid of the friggin feeling that you "failed" the most important test of your life? LIL


----------



## MEM2020

LIL,
What would your wife do if you simply asked her to write down the story of HER marriage. Her story about what it felt like to fall in love with you in the beginning, and how her feelings for you evolved over time including how she perceived you as a husband over time. 

What if you simply told her that - despite what is happening she is still at this moment the most important person in your life and that part of moving forward for you - even if that means parting amicably, is for you to achieve understanding and reach closure. 

I would ask her straight out to be unsparingly honest. Did the sexual part of your marriage fall apart because of what happens inside the bedroom or did it fall apart due to what was happening outside the bedroom. 

If you get the sense she wants to but is afraid to give you something that could be used against her - offer for her to write it and read it to you - she can keep the hardcopy. Or she can burn it. 

And I would tell her you aren't asking her to justify anything - just to help you understand what happened - since you really don't quite understand it. 

I can remember a few times wife and I deadlocked in anger. Both dug in and unwilling to budge. Both vindictively wanting to hurt the other. And in each case one or the other of us was able to reach out - and explain enough about what we were seeing, feeling and hearing to defuse the bomb before it detonated. True understanding of another's viewpoint in the midst of conflict is difficult, rare and beautifully curative when it does happen. 





lastinline said:


> Where do you go after posting anyone? I feel this forum has been helpful to vent and get my thoughts in order, but what does one do to heal?
> 
> I am already:
> training physically, have done so vigorously for entire adult life
> reading the Bible and other spiritual materials
> reading relationship books to diagnose what went wrong with me/her
> talking to others
> have a "consuming" hobby which is also quite physical
> working in a rewarding job
> recontacting family and people from past
> 
> What else has really worked for anyone out there, and how do you get rid of the friggin feeling that you "failed" the most important test of your life? LIL


----------



## Corpuswife

LIL: You are doing the work but it will take TIME. Keep moving on the path of self exploration. Gradually, it will take you to a better place. 

I used to think I failed as well. My counselor and friends told me that I had a really successful marriage for 24 years and 2 great kids. We built a business and managed our family with no help. We were pretty incredible as a team. That was no failure. 

I suspect that your family hasn't been a failure. It's a strong word that matches your feelings at this moment. 

I thought that I failed, in the eyes of God, but I reconciled that over time. I exhausted all avenues. I did everything humanly possible to save my marriage. I did it the right way. God doesn't like this one bit but he knows that it is out of my hands. "When someone divorces you, in your heart, then there is nothing else for you to do but sign a piece of paper"......(by my dear Christian friend of 28 years while I was sobbing to her)


----------



## lastinline

[*QUOTE=MEM11363;108275]LIL,
What would your wife do if you simply asked her to write down the story of HER marriage. Her story about what it felt like to fall in love with you in the beginning, and how her feelings for you evolved over time including how she perceived you as a husband over time. 

I would ask her straight out to be unsparingly honest. Did the sexual part of your marriage fall apart because of what happens inside the bedroom or did it fall apart due to what was happening outside the bedroom. 

I True understanding of another's viewpoint in the midst of conflict is difficult, rare and beautifully curative when it does happen.[/QUOTE]*

Wow Mem11363, there is a lot here to chew on.

First, I think her story would be a classical one of opposites attracting. Of her being smitten by a rakishly handsome young man, who being in the service and poor, was somewhat of a forbidden fruit.

She would tell of seeing a diamond in the rough. A project that she could fix with her sophisticated ways. However, the problem with projects is that sooner or later they get completed. 

She would write of loosing herself in her children, not one or two, but six. However the problem with children is that they too grow up.

Then she would bemoan coming to a place in her life where she felt less needed and less fulfilled. She would state that for the first time in her life she had "time", but no purpose, and she was unsure what to do with it. She would write of reaching out to old friends, and trying to establish a new identity for herself apart from mother.

Then I would imagine her story would start to include how some of her new friends paid a lot of attention to her. How some of the men said how pretty she was, and that "no way she had six kids". You can write the rest from there, I think you get it.

Our problems were never within the bedroom. I could always make her scream 6 ways to Tuesday, although frankly she never has had the sex drive that I do, and I have always resented this a bit. She was never more than a 3 times per week person, but once you got her going...stand back.

Bitterness is what lead to the death of our marriage. She has told me as much. "I put my clinic in front of her". Two years ago prior to any adultery, she gave me an ultimatum to sell my share of the clinic or she was going to leave. I guess I didn't, so she did. It really wasn't a viable option for me as it takes along time to "grow a practice", and my partner needed my presence if our clinic was going to survive. Without me, it had little value to him, and without him it would of had little value for me. It really was a marriage of a sort in itself. I have always been more clinical, and he has always been more administrative, but you need both in today's health care world to make it.

On the plus side, I'll get my new Charger this year, but the timing is crappy. I don't want it to look like a "crisis car". Oh well, to hell with appearances. LIL


----------



## MEM2020

LIL,
Of all the posts on the board - I feel the worst after reading what you write. Truly you deserved better. 

As for having a ferocious sex drive - I empathize - I was able to prevent mine from harming my marriage through a mix of business travel and other less savory means - not affairs....

If you took my wife away from me - well I would simply ask that out of basic decency you put me down painlessly but quickly.

I am sorry for you.



lastinline said:


> [*QUOTE=MEM11363;108275]LIL,
> What would your wife do if you simply asked her to write down the story of HER marriage. Her story about what it felt like to fall in love with you in the beginning, and how her feelings for you evolved over time including how she perceived you as a husband over time.
> 
> I would ask her straight out to be unsparingly honest. Did the sexual part of your marriage fall apart because of what happens inside the bedroom or did it fall apart due to what was happening outside the bedroom.
> 
> I True understanding of another's viewpoint in the midst of conflict is difficult, rare and beautifully curative when it does happen.*




Wow Mem11363, there is a lot here to chew on.

First, I think her story would be a classical one of opposites attracting. Of her being smitten by a rakishly handsome young man, who being in the service and poor, was somewhat of a forbidden fruit.

She would tell of seeing a diamond in the rough. A project that she could fix with her sophisticated ways. However, the problem with projects is that sooner or later they get completed. 

She would write of loosing herself in her children, not one or two, but six. However the problem with children is that they too grow up.

Then she would bemoan coming to a place in her life where she felt less needed and less fulfilled. She would state that for the first time in her life she had "time", but no purpose, and she was unsure what to do with it. She would write of reaching out to old friends, and trying to establish a new identity for herself apart from mother.

Then I would imagine her story would start to include how some of her new friends paid a lot of attention to her. How some of the men said how pretty she was, and that "no way she had six kids". You can write the rest from there, I think you get it.

Our problems were never within the bedroom. I could always make her scream 6 ways to Tuesday, although frankly she never has had the sex drive that I do, and I have always resented this a bit. She was never more than a 3 times per week person, but once you got her going...stand back.

Bitterness is what lead to the death of our marriage. She has told me as much. "I put my clinic in front of her". Two years ago prior to any adultery, she gave me an ultimatum to sell my share of the clinic or she was going to leave. I guess I didn't, so she did. It really wasn't a viable option for me as it takes along time to "grow a practice", and my partner needed my presence if our clinic was going to survive. Without me, it had little value to him, and without him it would of had little value for me. It really was a marriage of a sort in itself. I have always been more clinical, and he has always been more administrative, but you need both in today's health care world to make it.

On the plus side, I'll get my new Charger this year, but the timing is crappy. I don't want it to look like a "crisis car". Oh well, to hell with appearances. LIL[/QUOTE]


----------



## lastinline

*LIL,
Of all the posts on the board - I feel the worst after reading what you write. Truly you deserved better. 

As for having a ferocious sex drive - I empathize - I was able to prevent mine from harming my marriage through a mix of business travel and other less savory means - not affairs....

If you took my wife away from me - well I would simply ask that out of basic decency you put me down painlessly but quickly.

I am sorry for you.*

Mem11363, she deserved better as well. She invested a lot of time and energy into me. She gave me six kids, was patient with me through school/s, and was very understanding and supportive (up until recently) through two very family unfriendly careers e.g. the military and medicine.

I will agree with you on the fact that I deserve better in regards to her infidelity. She is in a "tough place" right now, and for whatever reason has set out to "go to war" with the people who love her the most in this life. She is currently "at odds" with her mom as well.

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that she feels her mom has "taken my side" in this matter. I don't think her mom has "taken sides" at all, she's just trying to lovingly tell her daughter that she is about to "screw up" something good. Her mom has basically "cut my wife off" from any of her resources aside from advice. She has been very clear that my wife will be monetarily on her own if she goes down this road.

I'm not sure what your next paragraph means sir, but if you have secrets about overcoming the difficulties of mismatched sex drives in a marriage; please share them with the class. 

I do understand your last paragraph though, and I will say one more time how wonderful your wife must be to you, and you to your wife. Well done. LIL


----------



## MEM2020

You and I are perhaps similar enough to understand each other and different enough to learn from one another. You have focused more on service - surely your place in the afterlife is secure from how you focus on the patients in your clinic. And it is obvious to me - that if you had chosen - you could have easily gone the plastic surgery - surgical route and made a TON more money. And what sucks about that is that work is not as valuable as what you have done - but it would have made it easier for you to accommodate your wife's need for expensive things. 

And that is a difference between us - one that reflects poorly on me and well on you. I focused more on earning money simply to ensure my wife was never stressed about it. I likely have made other compromises that you wouldn't have. Over all I am an honest guy and I work hard and mostly think I have treated other people fairly. Still - under duress I have made some compromises that in hindsight I feel bad about. 

Where perhaps I have bonded better at home is I am highly compassionate and very diplomatic. While I do point out mistakes when my wife makes them, I am generally able to do it with a light touch. 

I have mastered her sense of humor - and she mine - which helps a great deal as laughter has helped us get past some intense conflicts about sexual frequency and about our very difficult eldest child.

Sexually - I have learned to hit her switches outside the bedroom. I use a mix of brief bursts of intense fully clothed foreplay, mixed up with lots of touch that does not lead to sex. 
For instance I will randomly take her wrists pin her against the wall and tell her that later tonight she is going to strip - when I say so and after that I will tell her what to do to please me. And then I go on about whatever I was doing as if nothing happened. Later that night I do follow the script. 

And regarding our raw libido mismatch I have flat out cheated. All the stuff above has lifted her libido and the fact I am compassionate to her makes her make a major effort to have sex with me more often simply because she wants to make me happy. So those factors help a LOT. But a big factor is that I am on a medication that has a strong sexual side effect - it cuts my libido more then in half which brings me close enough to hers to eliminate tension about frequency. And that medication is optional - frankly I shouldn't be on it. But it has no apparent side effects other then libido reduction and that side effect has hugely improved our sex life because she rarely/almost never feels pressured and I am never angry if she goes 2-3-4 days in a row without wanting to connect. 

I think this is something you wouldn't do and I don't blame you. 

I know this will simply sound like a rationalization - because it is one. When I cranked my drive down with this med, I stopped pressuring her for sex. She fell more in love with me and that actually INCREASED her desire level. Before this med - I was slowly burning her out with my relentless needs. 





lastinline said:


> *LIL,
> Of all the posts on the board - I feel the worst after reading what you write. Truly you deserved better.
> 
> As for having a ferocious sex drive - I empathize - I was able to prevent mine from harming my marriage through a mix of business travel and other less savory means - not affairs....
> 
> If you took my wife away from me - well I would simply ask that out of basic decency you put me down painlessly but quickly.
> 
> I am sorry for you.*
> 
> Mem11363, she deserved better as well. She invested a lot of time and energy into me. She gave me six kids, was patient with me through school/s, and was very understanding and supportive (up until recently) through two very family unfriendly careers e.g. the military and medicine.
> 
> I will agree with you on the fact that I deserve better in regards to her infidelity. She is in a "tough place" right now, and for whatever reason has set out to "go to war" with the people who love her the most in this life. She is currently "at odds" with her mom as well.
> 
> It probably has a lot to do with the fact that she feels her mom has "taken my side" in this matter. I don't think her mom has "taken sides" at all, she's just trying to lovingly tell her daughter that she is about to "screw up" something good. Her mom has basically "cut my wife off" from any of her resources aside from advice. She has been very clear that my wife will be monetarily on her own if she goes down this road.
> 
> I'm not sure what your next paragraph means sir, but if you have secrets about overcoming the difficulties of mismatched sex drives in a marriage; please share them with the class.
> 
> I do understand your last paragraph though, and I will say one more time how wonderful your wife must be to you, and you to your wife. Well done. LIL


----------



## lastinline

Mem11363, I promise you that nothing I've done "has assured me a place in the afterlife". Remember, it's not about works sir. It's about what Christ has done for all of us believers that alone "assures" us salvation.

It's interesting you prefaced your letter with those remarks today, as I tried yet again to reach out to my wife's spiritual side this morning. I am truly grateful for God's mercy and grace to me. If he has forgiven me my debts then I know it is wrong for me to begrudge another who has wronged me to a far lesser extent their debts to me. Yet here I am, and just as the Bible story tells, my failure to do so has cast me back into a prison of sorts..

My wife really doesn't believe in God though, and I have failed her in this extent greatly. I have not been the loving Christian I ought to have been. I could list a whole lot of "bad" things I didn't do to make myself feel better at this point, but the reality is there are a whole lot of "good" things that I didn't do as well that may have helped win her to Christ. I have a bit too much pharisee in my blood for my own, or her good. She never wanted a lofty standard from her husband. She just wanted to be loved. I can see that now. 

You talk about my not chasing money Mem11363, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with wealth as long as it is honestly earned. It's a blessing, enjoy it and the freedom it brings. Help others, see the world, buy a labradooddle...whatever. It's just that for me sir, money beyond a point has never been much of a motivator. I think you've mistaken that for some sort of nobility on my part. 

You're much too generous with me, and much too hard on yourself. By all accounts that I've been able to gather, you seem to be a very honorable man. I agree we are somewhat different, but that being said, shoes are different then pants, but I don't think I would want to go to a store without either of them. Often times different is just different sir, and not necessarily better.

People make mistakes, even people who have been trained and brought up well. Do not think for a moment that the world isn't full of people of lesser means who have also had a child go astray. It truly isn't your fault. Sometimes people just "screw up" because that's what people do. Pray for her. She'll come back, if not today then eventually. We're people sir. We're flawed. Acknowledge it. Accept it. Embrace it. Expect it. At least then, you won't ever be surprised or disappointed. LIL


----------



## Corpuswife

LIL: This last post was beautifully written with a softer side. I don't recall reading a post, with that tone, from you.

Yes. We all make mistakes. If only we could change things but we can't. 

Mem: I have a wayward son also. We were great parents. Involved, provided structure, and loving. I'm praying for him. I never stop. I love him despite his flaws. I love him despite his choices. He has broken my heart but he's suffering the consequences of his behavior. I found the same peace, at this point, as I did with my husband. God has granted me peace. My son has rediscovered God. Now, he has to show by his actions, if he's willing to put forth a new life. I will be waiting.


----------



## MEM2020

LIL and CW,
Thank you for your kind words. 

LIL I will pray for you this Sunday that your wife has an epiphany and is able to realize that your brand of love, while sometimes tough is always genuine and that whatever your errors and omissions during the long course of your marriage they were honestly made and sincerely regretted. 

CW I hope that my child is able to find a path forward as yours seems to be doing. 




lastinline said:


> Mem11363, I promise you that nothing I've done "has assured me a place in the afterlife". Remember, it's not about works sir. It's about what Christ has done for all of us believers that alone "assures" us salvation.
> 
> It's interesting you prefaced your letter with those remarks today, as I tried yet again to reach out to my wife's spiritual side this morning. I am truly grateful for God's mercy and grace to me. If he has forgiven me my debts then I know it is wrong for me to begrudge another who has wronged me to a far lesser extent their debts to me. Yet here I am, and just as the Bible story tells, my failure to do so has cast me back into a prison of sorts..
> 
> My wife really doesn't believe in God though, and I have failed her in this extent greatly. I have not been the loving Christian I ought to have been. I could list a whole lot of "bad" things I didn't do to make myself feel better at this point, but the reality is there are a whole lot of "good" things that I didn't do as well that may have helped win her to Christ. I have a bit too much pharisee in my blood for my own, or her good. She never wanted a lofty standard from her husband. She just wanted to be loved. I can see that now.
> 
> You talk about my not chasing money Mem11363, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with wealth as long as it is honestly earned. It's a blessing, enjoy it and the freedom it brings. Help others, see the world, buy a labradooddle...whatever. It's just that for me sir, money beyond a point has never been much of a motivator. I think you've mistaken that for some sort of nobility on my part.
> 
> You're much too generous with me, and much too hard on yourself. By all accounts that I've been able to gather, you seem to be a very honorable man. I agree we are somewhat different, but that being said, shoes are different then pants, but I don't think I would want to go to a store without either of them. Often times different is just different sir, and not necessarily better.
> 
> People make mistakes, even people who have been trained and brought up well. Do not think for a moment that the world isn't full of people of lesser means who have also had a child go astray. It truly isn't your fault. Sometimes people just "screw up" because that's what people do. Pray for her. She'll come back, if not today then eventually. We're people sir. We're flawed. Acknowledge it. Accept it. Embrace it. Expect it. At least then, you won't ever be surprised or disappointed. LIL


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## lastinline

Corpuswife said:


> LIL: This last post was beautifully written with a softer side. I don't recall reading a post, with that tone, from you.
> 
> Yes. We all make mistakes. If only we could change things but we can't.
> 
> Mem: I have a wayward son also. We were great parents. Involved, provided structure, and loving. I'm praying for him. I never stop. I love him despite his flaws. I love him despite his choices. He has broken my heart but he's suffering the consequences of his behavior. I found the same peace, at this point, as I did with my husband. God has granted me peace. My son has rediscovered God. Now, he has to show by his actions, if he's willing to put forth a new life. I will be waiting.


CW, I generally don't show my softer underbelly much, but it's there never the less. I have learned over the course of my marriage that vulnerability is viewed as a weakness by my wife; so while I may routinely think along these lines, I seldom express myself this way. Ironically, she has hardened my persona far more than six years in the service ever did. LIL


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## Corpuswife

Hmmm LIL. I feel that there has to be a certain confidence to show your underbelly. However, if the underbelly is ALWAYS shown it turns into a weakness. Funny how that works.

I say that this is something that you may want to explore via writing or some other expressive means. The soft side may bring you to a deeper level of understanding your self. The focus should be on you at this point.


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## Atholk

lastinline said:


> Bitterness is what lead to the death of our marriage. She has told me as much. "I put my clinic in front of her". Two years ago prior to any adultery, she gave me an ultimatum to sell my share of the clinic or she was going to leave. I guess I didn't, so she did. It really wasn't a viable option for me as it takes along time to "grow a practice", and my partner needed my presence if our clinic was going to survive. Without me, it had little value to him, and without him it would of had little value for me. It really was a marriage of a sort in itself. I have always been more clinical, and he has always been more administrative, but you need both in today's health care world to make it.


I think this is the crux of the matter. She gave you a clear choice, and from her viewpoint, you did not choose "her". Everything else stems from this choice. Obviously she did not move out straight away, but she has "left" you for quite some time. She seems like she is milking it for whatever is left, but likely has no real committment to you. Nor intention to ever reforge one.

Basically if you communicate to your wife that she's not the most important thing in your world, they take that very personally.

I do understand the effort of setting up a medical practice though. Very difficult to have turned away from all that time and effort.


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## lastinline

I agree Atholk she gave me a clear choice, but it was a patently unfair choice. In my opinion, it was the equivalent of her saying, "I'll stay with you if you prove you love to me by placing your R hand into either this wood chipper here, or that garbage disposal there."

I work a lot, by I am by no means a workaholic. I would much rather be on a mat or at home, than in a clinic. I do what I have to do for my practice to survive. I have serious problems with cutting corners when it comes to people's health and well being. I can't do it. It's a moral issue, even though the alternative is easier and at times even more lucrative. Based upon long-term observation of my wife's motivations and priorities, I would never want her as my health care provider, and neither would you Atholk. 

That being said, she is in fact a kidaholic, and has willingly placed the kids needs well in front of mine, for 17+ years now. She has invited them into our bed, doted upon them to the point of weakening them, and placed them in a superior position to our union as husband and wife from post-parous day 1.

She has recklessly continued in this behavior despite countless objections from me, and seems genuinely confused why someone she has repeatedly pushed away is no longer responsive to her requests, or accomodating to her suggestions.

Atholk this was a great line:
"Basically if you communicate to your wife that she's not the most important thing in your world, they take that very personally."

However, it is more applicable to her than to me. How long could your wife refuse you for touch, not necessarily sex, before you would begin to harbor resentment in your heart? Are you a decent enough man to withstand 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? I made it about 1 decade sir. You can write back and let me know how I did. 

No sir, it was her that changed the rules. I was never around a lot from day one. The service has a way of sending you places, and college has a way of sequestering you away. It's no different after graduating either as far as time, and if anything there is even more pressure, as there are no real holiday or semester breaks.

Soon after we first met she invited me into her condo, and I just sort of stayed. She was a freak sexually. Insatiable. She would always touch me, and not just suggestively either. She had loving touches, playful touches; the whole friggin kit and kaboodle. 

I am not sure about the whole "5 languages of love" thing, but I do know this; touch is incredibly important to me in making an emotional connection, and willfully and repetitively depriving me of it when I have done nothing substanstively wrong is at least cruel, if not outright abusive. Please keep in mind I am not just referring to sex. I am talking about hugs, holding hands, cuddling, every friggin thing women are supposed to like, or so I've read.

Now before you go all "Freud" on me, realize that while I am not psychic and I profess no supranatural telepathic ability, I am telling you that her motivation in doing this was not out of any deep hurt or repulsion towards me, but out of a simple desire for control. I could "yes Dear" my way into her panties today in 10 minutes, if I conceded and capitulated every position or issue to her. 

Her problem is she does not understand the nature of the man she married. I on the other hand, feel I understand her motivations and machinations rather well. My hands are tied when it comes to issues of prinicple. I don't possess the luxury of wiggle room or negotiation in all of the areas of my life. She does. My world is largely black and white, and hers is shades of grey. God have we discussed that particular horse to death over the years.

I do appreciate your input Atholk. You are a brilliant man. Your insight serves you well, and I am sincerely glad there are capable people like you working in other areas of medicine. For the record though, I could keep this garbage relationship for as long as I wanted it. She may have chose to briefly leave the union for her indiscretion, but it was I that chose to end it.

Her desire is for manipulation, and she is better than most chiropractors at it. My desire is just for simple affection. If that is too much to ask then I am in fact a selfish @ss, but I won't be apologizing for it...at least not anytime soon. LIL


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## Loving Husband

*I agree Atholk she gave me a clear choice, but it was a patently unfair choice. In my opinion, it was the equivalent of her saying, "I'll stay with you if you prove you love to me by placing your R hand into either this wood chipper here, or that garbage disposal there."*

I totally respect the actions you have taken to better yourself and provide for your family but..... I have to agree with Atholk. In her eyes she gave you a choice. Her or the Practice. She obviously would be ok with no matter what the fall out would have been. IE no money.. So you made the choice to continue to do for yourself over the marriage. While I understand the delema I see where she is coming. She feels second fiddle to your work and she is no longer going to put up with it. I am not sure your anaology is the right one since it's extreme. A job isn't a limb. One is permanent the other can be gotten again. Maybe not exactly what you wanted though. Just a thought...


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## lastinline

LH, so you've spoken with my wife and you know she'd be ok with less money, because that's great news to me. For the record, my practice currently does bring me more satisfaction than my wife, but so does having a tooth extracted for that matter.

Because I do appreciate your input LH, and I know you are coming from a "good place", I will try to explain as best I can why I declined my wife's generous offer. 

I said no to her because I don't feel I have any real emotional connection to my wife and haven't for sometime. I listened to her proposition, and I briefly entertained the notion of selling out. I even went so far as to talk to my business partner about it. He said he understood my position, but that he really wasn't in a position to buy me out. In the end it wasn't a viable decision.

I understood why my partner refused my offer as he has always been more of a admin type, and I have generally carried the "clinical" side of the clinic. That's not to say he's not a good practitioner, he is. I'm just saying our skill sets our slightly different. You want this in a business as well as in a marriage LH.

If I took another job, it would of meant less money, less autonomy, more work, and less potential upside. It was a no win. LH, she was and still is unhappy. She's out right now with her "friends". I am at home with our kids watching the new Harry Potter movie, or at least they are. 

If my wife wants a say in my life, my humble advice to her would be to start acting like my wife. What she is "struggling" with is control, nothing more. She is a strong willed woman with strong willed friends. 

I am pleased to report I am not "whipped" LH. I am an intelligent man by all accounts, or so I think. Regardless, I am not going to throw away my financial security for a relationship where my needs haven't been met, and I haven't felt loved for quite sometime. What I do now, I do out of duty and not love.

What I want you to do now LH, is quit your job for me. What you wont? Why? Oh, because you don't love me. Good. I'm glad to hear you say that LH. Now you "get it". Now you understand my position. I knew you'd come around. LIL


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## MEM2020

LIL,

I rarely, rarely disagree with Atholk - in this case though I don't believe he was correct. When your wife gave you the ultimatum to sell the practice she was certainly attempting some maneuver - I simply don't believe that if you had sold it she would have worked to save the marriage. 

If she had simply asked you - can we work on your schedule so you can be home at such and such a time - that is different. And I bet you would have attempted to accommodate that type of request. It is not a good faith request to ask a man to change WHAT he does or WHO he works for. It is a good faith request to ask a man to be home a certain amount of time. 

Considering that at the same time your wife was asking you to sell the practice, she was ALSO complaining about wanting you to make mo' money. 

I had my wife issue a work related ultimatum once - it was about my travel schedule. And I quickly got reassigned to a local job for a year. We were both happy. But if she had demanded I change jobs - employers - I would have had a huge problem with that. Again - demanding that I not exceed a certain level of travel was fine - but telling me how to accomplish that would have crossed a control point separating a man from a puppet. 

LIL - If your wife had even met you a quarter of the way - I can tell you would have found a way to make this work. 








lastinline said:


> LH, so you've spoken with my wife and you know she'd be ok with less money, because that's great news to me. For the record, my practice currently does bring me more satisfaction than my wife, but so does having a tooth extracted for that matter.
> 
> Because I do appreciate your input LH, and I know you are coming from a "good place", I will try to explain as best I can why I declined my wife's generous offer.
> 
> I said no to her because I don't feel I have any real emotional connection to my wife and haven't for sometime. I listened to her proposition, and I briefly entertained the notion of selling out. I even went so far as to talk to my business partner about it. He said he understood my position, but that he really wasn't in a position to buy me out. In the end it wasn't a viable decision.
> 
> I understood why my partner refused my offer as he has always been more of a admin type, and I have generally carried the "clinical" side of the clinic. That's not to say he's not a good practitioner, he is. I'm just saying our skill sets our slightly different. You want this in a business as well as in a marriage LH.
> 
> If I took another job, it would of meant less money, less autonomy, more work, and less potential upside. It was a no win. LH, she was and still is unhappy. She's out right now with her "friends". I am at home with our kids watching the new Harry Potter movie, or at least they are.
> 
> If my wife wants a say in my life, my humble advice to her would be to start acting like my wife. What she is "struggling" with is control, nothing more. She is a strong willed woman with strong willed friends.
> 
> I am pleased to report I am not "whipped" LH. I am an intelligent man by all accounts, or so I think. Regardless, I am not going to throw away my financial security for a relationship where my needs haven't been met, and I haven't felt loved for quite sometime. What I do now, I do out of duty and not love.
> 
> What I want you to do now LH, is quit your job for me. What you wont? Why? Oh, because you don't love me. Good. I'm glad to hear you say that LH. Now you "get it". Now you understand my position. I knew you'd come around. LIL


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## lastinline

Thanks MEM11363 for the support. I honestly feel that had my business partner accepted my offer to buy me out 2 years ago nothing would have changed. Obviously, I cannot know a future that never happened, but my gut tells me she would have just filed at that time to "get her fair share" of the money. At least now, most of my net worth is still tied up in my clinic and I still have a financial upside. I can hardly wait to see how the friggin courts will handle this.

She was gone until midnight, and went to the gym today for 4 1/2 hours. Nice. I cleaned the house with the kids while she was out. Nothing like doing her job to put me in a completely foul mood. Hey, WTF I like scrubbing floors and polishing wood. Hell, even shampooing carpets makes me happy. It's amazing what I can accomplish in 5 hours that she can't do all friggin week. 

Some one please tell me again how hard she has it. She did tell me I did a really nice job on the tile floors and the carpets in the kids room. I didn't even honor her statement with a comment, as she was watching animal videos on u-tube in my office while I was finishing up. Thanks for the help wifey.

I don't even feel like coming home tonight. I don't even feel like I have a home anymore. It's more of a second job. I finally think I understand what estranged means. Fantastic...a new word for me. LIL


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## Atholk

I think she is getting demonized a little here. I think she needs a greater level of stimualtion from LIL than he is able to give. I think that she needs "XYZ" from him, but he can only supply "XY" beacuse all of "Z" is needed for the medical practice. So it all starts to break down a bit and things are really spirialing down now. And getting "Z" from outside the relationsip is probably a EA or PA, so naturally unacceptable and/or likely to end the relationship.

It's just relationship gridlock and I don't see a resolution anywhere. 

This is a very sad story LIL. I truely mean that.


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## lastinline

Atholk said:


> I think she is getting demonized a little here. I think she needs a greater level of stimualtion from LIL than he is able to give. I think that she needs "XYZ" from him, but he can only supply "XY" beacuse all of "Z" is needed for the medical practice. So it all starts to break down a bit and things are really spirialing down now. And getting "Z" from outside the relationsip is probably a EA or PA, so naturally unacceptable and/or likely to end the relationship.
> 
> It's just relationship gridlock and I don't see a resolution anywhere.
> 
> This is a very sad story LIL. I truely mean that.


You are right Atholk, she needs more from me than what I am able to give her. She blames my practice as do you apparently, but that is the simple answer. However, I do not believe it is the correct one.

She really hasn't put much into our relationship for a long while. She is a kidaholic. Her relationship with our children has always taken precedent to our relationship as husband and wife, and I have just become more and more vocal with my disatisfaction with our relationship.

I am not trying to demonize her. She's not evil Atholk, she's myopic. Her failure to understand that I have needs that are not being met, will ultimately cost her our marriage. 

In some ways I am the direct cause of her infidelity, as after making my needs known and not receiving satisfaction, I began to distance myself from her. Nature abhors a vacuum, and I abhor a wh0re, so with her indiscrestion that was a result of my distancing, we were put on a direct collision course with divorce.

Am I to blame? Hell yes, but less than her, and no there isn't a lot of satisfaction in only being "partially at fault". It just is what it is.

I could save me relationship for a season, by apologizing and capitulating to every whim and demand she has, but to what end? If she wants out, she can have out. She will resent the hell out of the next man she "hooks up" with for not being 1/2 the man I am. Do I take satisfaction in this...yah, sort of. If that's all I can get, than that's all I can get. Scorched Earth. LIL


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## Corpuswife

Either way LIL neither one of you were getting your needs met. No matter what the reason, at this point it doesn't matter.

She has been detached for awhile. You are now beginning your detachment. It was you that held the relationship together during this endpoint. It's obvious. 

Any time you put the kids first, long term, it's marriage suicide. I've been there and so had my husband. 

God first
Marriage second
Kids third

Try not to focus on your feelings of anger toward your wife. It's ok to have it but don't let it be your focus. Allow yourself to move through it.


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