# unacceptable behaviour or paranoid?



## paul180285 (May 11, 2015)

Hi all,

First post so please be kind! 

My wife and I have been married for nearly 3 years, but together for 11 in total. We're both 30.

She has a sister she's close to, and they and the rest of their friends still enjoy a night out at a club or pub a few times a month without me.

In the past she has had her fair share of indiscretions - nothing concrete, but a number of photos have appeared on social networking of her appearing to be friendly with random men. She knows that I find this sort of behaviour inappropriate, but argues that she has a right to enjoy herself and doesn't see any harm in being friendly with people when she's out. I now know that her friends have set up privacy on social networks so that I can't see things they post on a night out. I'm ashamed to say it, but once I managed to see some and, although i thought they were unacceptable, did not provide any concrete proof of cheating.

Last weekend we went out for a friends engagement in Manchester, and my wife and her sister went to the bar for some drinks, and I noticed them chatting and laughing with a couple of other men that weren't with us. After ten minutes or so I stepped in and led my wife away. Her defence was that her sister was drunk and she was trying to coax her away, although it didn't seem like that.

Anyway, I shamefully checked my wife's phone the next day and found a text to her sister "[me] not happy about us chatting to blokes at bar - little does he know!".

I'm upset at the audacity of doing that when I was there, and makes me wonder what happens when I'm not, although I have no concrete proof either way. Should I confront, and give away the fact that I've read her messages? Could be perfectly innocent i.e. "little does he know they were gay" - but how likely is this? How does this sound to you? I've always had trust issues, but my wife's viewpoint is that just because she's married it doesn't mean she can go out and enjoy herself.

Any thoughts are appreciated before I go mad!

Cheers, 

Paul


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

clubbing while married w/o me would be a serious no no, especially multiple times/month.

I would do so very covert spying, just to make sure you know the truth.... Don't confront unless you have enough proof to get to D (cheating). Any proof you find, save. Look for Weighlifter's thread on the CWI forum for ways to snoop.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"little does he know" looks like a pretty heavy admission to me. Setting up privacy settings specifically where you can't see photos of their outings looks pretty suspicious, too. If nothing was going on, why hide it from her husband? If these outings don't involve activities you wouldn't approve of, why aren't you invited? You've been with this woman basically all her adult life. If you can't trust her after 11 years and you are a reasonably sane individual, it's her fault you can't trust her. She's had 11 years to prove her trustworthiness to you.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Yep, inappropriate. You're not being paranoid at all.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I would feel my trust were betrayed if I were you. And I would tell her so.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Yes, inappropriate behavior. You are not out of line having a issue with it. Specifically with "little does he know" comment.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

You have a party girl in your hands. Take the time to go in these clubs by yourself and see in person how your wife behaves in her group. Do not join in the group. Continue to observe them from a distance. Assess your situation after several observations to arrive to a sound decision. You're in a tough spot.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I know you love your wife, but is she mature enough to be in the type of relationship you want? The people she surrounds herself with, will impact the type of person she is, her habits and behavior.

I suggest detaching, gathering some emotional distance to really see your wife more objectively.

It takes more than a biological attachment to make a relationship work. There needs to be open and a honest communication.

Also, why does she not respect you, and you should also consider that she gets off, or enjoys the dopamine rush too much to have enough impulse control to stop her from behaving more like an adolescent teen, than someone in her early thirties. Look at her friends, sisters, and their behavior more closely, she will pick-up their behaviors and habits.

So, if you need to be more emotionally strong, get there first, then consider what your actions will be.

She may like the safety of a relationship you provide, while she will behave in manners that threaten that relationship. As of now, she does not fear losing you, or is not motivated to change in fear of losing you.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

STFU!!! Don't say anything yet!!! Do not confront without absolute proof of cheating.

Confronting about inappropriate behavior, whether it be cheating or something else you find unacceptable, must only be done when you have absolute undeniable proof. Even when confronted with good proof but not absolute proof, cheaters will deny, lie, and gaslight.

You need actual photos, explicit emails, or explicit text messages before you confront.

So don't say a word to her about your suspicions!!

Start by quietly collecting as much information as you can. Look at all the phone records for the past year or two. Look for numbers called or texted at odd hours. Perhaps during her nights out, or late at night, or immediately after you leave for work in the morning, etc. Check her contacts list, and verify every number. Cheaters will use a fake name in their contact list. If she's having a hot affair with Joe, she won't put "Joe" as the name in her contact list, she put in "Jane from work". So do a reverse number lookup on any suspicious numbers (keep in mind the phone might be in a family member's name, perhaps the real husband of "Jane from work", so don't immediately jump to conclusions).

Put a VAR in her car. See http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html . Keylog the computer to catch secret emails, IMs, and other things she is hiding.

Go through all the financial records for the last year or two. You're looking for things which don't quite make sense. An order from somewhere sexy (e.g. AdamEve) but you didn't see the stuff in your own bedroom. Look for possible gift purchases, or purchases made at a time/place which doesn't fit her normal life. These may or may not be smoking guns, but worth finding if they are there.

Go through her dresser and closet carefully. You're looking for several things. First, you're looking for sexy clothing you never see at home. Second, you're looking for things like condoms, hotel key cards, love notes, other souvenirs from trysts. Third, you're looking for a secret burner phone. 

Search her car thoroughly. Under seats, glove box, every cubby or pocket, the trunk, the spare tire and jack compartments. Condoms, underwear, secret phone, receipts, hotel key cards, etc.

I think you may have to hire a PI to follow her to one of these club nights if you don't find anything else on your own. She may be stepping out only on these nights, random hook ups rather than an ongoing affair.

Finally, the text you saw could mean something other than the worst case. Maybe her sister is screwing around but not your wife. Maybe they dance with men in clubs but never do anything more. I think you do need to fully investigate given the situation. Don't feel guilty, because you have the right to know the truth about your marriage. The message is certainly good enough reason to have worries. But don't go off the deep end.

If you do find something, stfu and come back here to TAM. Do not go off half-coccked by confronting her with one piece of evidence.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OP:

have children?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

There is a Spanish proverb that echoes what Mr. Fisty was saying: "Tell me who your friends are, and I will tell you who you are."


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

Its the "little does he know" i wold be really worried about. To me i take this as half the stuff they get up to when they are out you have no clue about..... This would freak me out.

I think that your wife was chatting these guys up too, I think she just said it was her sister shes just as bad.

Yes she was acting inappropriately and i would be worried about her going out, and i would also be worried about the photos that your blocked from seeing.


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## paul180285 (May 11, 2015)

Thanks everyone for all the advice - I really appreciate is as don't have anyone else I can turn to ATM.

@NN - no children involved. A sad miscarriage a year or so back which We have both taken hard, but these issues stretch back further than that.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

paul180285 said:


> but my wife's viewpoint is that just because she's married it doesn't mean she can go out and enjoy herself.


I'll bet.

You need to spy. Don't worry about texts and keloggers and such. For the most part, what happens in the clubs, stays in the clubs.

Maybe a VAR. I would LOVE to hear their conversations on their way home after a night with the boys.

But PI would be best. Track her somehow and give him the coordinates. It won't take long. An evening or two. He'll get some good cell phone video, I'll bet. It will be worth the investment. I can guarantee that.

No kids with a party girl. You dodged a bullet.

Please report back so that all of the "my wife/GF hits the clubs dressed like a $lut every weekend and I'm cool with that" crowd can get a good slap in the face.

Do this and it will be an awakening for you.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

paul180285 said:


> She has a sister she's close to, and they and the rest of their friends still enjoy a night out at a club or pub a few times a month without me.l


For how many years? Do you know how many men there have been? And do you know about any of them? I'll bet not.

How late does she get home? I'll bet quite a few Pound Sterling that she's had a few "we were too drunk to drive so we decided to stay at a friends downtown overnight" evenings. 

Just out of curiosity, what does she TELL you goes on during these nights out? I'll bet she doesn't tell you much, right? You need to be honest. There is a big crowd out here that needs to hear this stuff.


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## ShouldIbehere (Mar 24, 2015)

I am going to start this out with, I am sorry. I hope you are not going through what I just went through. First off, your most likely being blinded by your personal feelings and hope for what you want to believe, and not what is actually happening. My wife and I are 30, soon to be ex. We have been married for over 5 years. She used to go out all the time with her friends to clubs and to drink. I woke up after she came home after a night out, she hopped into the shower after putting her phone on the charger. A message from some guy popped up. I was dumb enough to read it. He was telling her that the picture she sent him was not the kind he was hoping for. I was being naive and dumb confronted her immediately. Dont do this. Save your confrontations for when you are willing to actually do something and not caught off guard. You need to be able to enforce your boundaries. She during our argument turned it around on me and was mad because I was snooping. We eventually moved on and she promised not to talk to other guys this way. Later, about two years, i started to get bad feelings in my gut, and started to dig into her life. I found out a ton of things I didnt want to know. What I found out was she didnt stop she just got better at hiding. She was deleting messages and using AIM and other forms of chats. Eventually because I didnt confront her immediately I got enough evidence to confront her, and legally get a divorce. She had sent pictures and sexting was a common occurrence for her. You need to find out what you want, what boundaries you want to enforce and where you want to take this. If she is doing something, are you willing to split? Usually a suspicion is your body telling you that something is up. Follow it, you are most likely right. DO NOT CONFRONT HER UNTIL YOU HAVE SOMETHING SOLID! Also if you think at that point that its a deal breaker, dont confront her until you have a lawyer. I honestly hope its not what you think.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

paul180285 said:


> Thanks everyone for all the advice - I really appreciate is as don't have anyone else I can turn to ATM.
> 
> @NN - no children involved. A sad miscarriage a year or so back which We have both taken hard, but these issues stretch back further than that.



Good that you do not have children, and sorry for the miscarriage.

By detaching, you can get more of a realistic view of her make-up. Things are complicated because of the attachment, and emotions involved. Detaching diminish those things as well, so if the situation is not favorable, it would make it easier to leave.

When all is said and done, you might think why am I attached to this person, and allowed myself this much suffering? Was it worth it over all?

These questions need ansering as your investing valuable time, life, and energy into this person, only to find out that it was a poor investment.

Your life is valuable, and there will never be another exactly like you. There will be others that cherish the qualities that you possess, someone who will not take that for granted, you need to find the right type.

Work on the things you need to work on. Self-worth is one. You needed to draw a line in the sand at some point.

There might be chemistry, but compatibility with your wife is an issue. Without that, it is hard to build a life around, or maintain a bond.

She wishes to be single and act in that manner, while you want a committed relationship with honesty and transparency. You have a difference of lifestyle wants.

And if you behave in the same manner, high probability of her having an issue with it. I am sure she has good qualities, but focus on the negative ones that cannot work for you, and what you are looking for in a mate.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Follow the advice here, it will be solid. I have a pretty established view on men or women that behave like they're single. I'm not talking about the very occasional drink with friends. I mean more frequent partying with blatant disregard for their relationship status. 

IMHO they're not marriage material.


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## D.H Mosquito (Jul 22, 2014)

She isn't having an affair but hooking up with who ever does it for her that night which is probably worse, so what do you want to do fix it or continue to be played for the fool and let her have fun men? or end it? i would confront and deal with it there and then it will be messy but it can't go on unchecked and has to be dealt with before it destroys you


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You've known a woman intimately for 11 years and you still can't trust her. That fact is more relevant than any specific information spying or an interrogation could reveal. Whether she's boinked a dozen guys or none, the simple fact is that you don't feel like you can trust her.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

ahh, this is an easy one to solve:

Divorce her.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Good that you do not have children, and sorry for the miscarriage.
> 
> By detaching, you can get more of a realistic view of her make-up. Things are complicated because of the attachment, and emotions involved. Detaching diminish those things as well, so if the situation is not favorable, it would make it easier to leave.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

she is a "bad bet" for you. she is not a wise emotional investment for you for your life. there are better women out there for you, surely. trying again to have a child with her would be a terible mistake IMO.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Without knowing what she is doing on the nights out, there is no way to jump to a conclusion she is hooking up. Paul180285 do you have any idea the kinds of places she is going? Is she dressing up all hot or just office casual? Does she come home drunk frequently? Has she not come home afterwards?

I think at a minimum the text message indicates she is doing things you would not be happy about. But are they truly disloyal to the marriage? For example does she dance once in a while with other men? That would really aggravate me if my wife did that, but it isn't necessarily an infidelity. Maybe she and her sister let guys buy drinks once in a while and they'll sit at the same table with the guys for a while. I don't think any of that is good behavior, but it is a world away from giving bj's in the parking lot or having unprotected sex with random guys.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Thor said:


> STFU!!! Don't say anything yet!!! Do not confront without absolute proof of cheating.
> 
> Confronting about inappropriate behavior, whether it be cheating or something else you find unacceptable, must only be done when you have absolute undeniable proof. Even when confronted with good proof but not absolute proof, cheaters will deny, lie, and gaslight.
> 
> ...


This :iagree::iagree:


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## paul180285 (May 11, 2015)

Thanks everyone for all your advice. I'll keep quiet and do some digging, which seems to be the overall consensus. 

Thor - clubs and bars, not the sort of outfits I'd be happy for her to wear, put it that way. Frequently comes home drunk yes, sometimes "stays with friends" (pre planned).





Thor said:


> Without knowing what she is doing on the nights out, there is no way to jump to a conclusion she is hooking up. Paul180285 do you have any idea the kinds of places she is going? Is she dressing up all hot or just office casual? Does she come home drunk frequently? Has she not come home afterwards?
> 
> I think at a minimum the text message indicates she is doing things you would not be happy about. But are they truly disloyal to the marriage? For example does she dance once in a while with other men? That would really aggravate me if my wife did that, but it isn't necessarily an infidelity. Maybe she and her sister let guys buy drinks once in a while and they'll sit at the same table with the guys for a while. I don't think any of that is good behavior, but it is a world away from giving bj's in the parking lot or having unprotected sex with random guys.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

suggestion to contact a mod and move this down to the coping with infidelity thread. This isn't going to end well I'm afraid.

While others are suggesting gathering evidence I would also make plans to separate your bank accounts, find a place to move, and retain a good divorce attorney. When you do confront you want all three of these things in place and ready to go


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

paul180285 said:


> Thanks everyone for all your advice. I'll keep quiet and do some digging, which seems to be the overall consensus.
> 
> Thor - clubs and bars, not the sort of outfits I'd be happy for her to wear, put it that way. Frequently comes home drunk yes, sometimes "stays with friends" (pre planned).


Paul, your description fits in with a pattern we see here frequently. I would be highly suspicious of what is really going on. Though I also caution against jumping to conclusions because not every situation is the same. Still, Wolf has some good basic advice. You need to investigate this thoroughly without getting caught, and you need to do some basic research into what the legal landscape is for you wrt divorce.

I would hire a PI to follow her on a club night.

Alternatively, I would GPS her car to track where she is really going on the club nights. I would VAR her car. Do search the house and car as previously mentioned, though you probably won't find anything in the house. Search the car early in the morning after a club night, if you can do it without getting caught.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Thor said:


> Paul, your description fits in with a pattern we see here frequently. I would be highly suspicious of what is really going on. Though I also caution against jumping to conclusions because not every situation is the same. Still, Wolf has some good basic advice. You need to investigate this thoroughly without getting caught, and you need to do some basic research into what the legal landscape is for you wrt divorce.
> 
> *I would hire a PI to follow her on a club night.*
> 
> Alternatively, I would GPS her car to track where she is really going on the club nights. I would VAR her car. Do search the house and car as previously mentioned, though you probably won't find anything in the house. Search the car early in the morning after a club night, if you can do it without getting caught.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## seasalt (Jul 5, 2012)

Without question she is behaving inappropriately. The usual rule of thumb is she shouldn't do anything she wouldn't do in your presence. Unfortunately for you she seems to have no problems of disrespecting you to your face.

How you resond will now not only be key for your relationship going forward, if that is in the cards for the two of you, but also the self esteem you will bring to any future relationship.

Good luck,

Seasalt


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Even if no infidelity is involved, the lack of trust and respect alone should be enough evidence to pull the plug on this marriage on life support. The problem I see is that you don't view this as more than enough reasons for divorcing her because you are emotionally co-dependent on her. As someone here suggested, you need to detach emotionally from her in order to save your sanity, which is more important than saving a dying marriage.


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## Vorlon (Sep 13, 2012)

paul180285, 

Sorry you are going through this. As stated above it doesn't look good. What you have described is classic cheater behavior. If you take some time and read here on TAM and the CWI section your situation is not new but very common. 

Its as though they all read the same script. Frequent Girls Night Out (GNO) almost always end badly. We see it all the time here and by the time people get here its usually to late for the relationship to survive but people will try anyway. It usually involves a lot of pain and disappointment. Thus you'll see the advice quickly thrown out to Divorce or run as fast as you can. 

To be honest she will have her reasons for her behavior but in the end it doesn't matter because you are not and probably never have been her top priority. Your gut tells you something is wrong. Rarely is your gut wrong. It may not have the details exactly picture perfect but its not wrong. 

Do your homework. Talk to a lawyer (They usually offer one free consult). Prepare for battle. Get evidence to support your position. But evidence may not help depending on where you live. Your wife is a selfish one and as soon as she sees your not going to play her game she will try take you for everything she can. Don' expect compassion, fond memories, your history, family or anything else to prevent her from screwing you over if she can. Why....Because its all about her and you not playing her game by her rules upsets the way she thinks life should go. She feels perfectly entitled to do what she pleases because it makes her happy. She probably has her sister and friends cheering her on saying she deserves it. 

You and your feelings are not her concern. They are just a trivial inconvenience to her. Oh she will play the game to keep you quiet and complainant but she has no respect for you, and probably no small measure of contempt too. I mean really you have been so easy to fool ...how can she respect you. She probably feels your getting what you deserve because if you were a a real man you wouldn't stand for it in the first place. But she'll take it for now because you serve some purpose. But not the purpose that you think you do or should in her life. She has lost respect for you and a women can't truly love a man she doesn't respect. 

I know that last bit was Harsh but I'm trying to prepare you for what is coming and if your not in the right state of mind you will suffer longer and feel like an even bigger fool than you already will when all this is over. Make no mistake this marriage is over you just don't know it yet. There really are plenty of fish in the sea. Its time to throw this one back. 

Best of luck.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Frankly, I would just follow her when she goes out and observe for yourself. When you you see something you don't like you either confront or take phone cam photos and confront later. You have nothing to loose by doing this, based on your posts she's checking out of the marriage anyway. You might as well preserve some of your dignity. 

BTW: She is doing this because she knows she can do it and you won't say anything. You are allowing and accepting bad behavior. Time to change yourself.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Vorlon said:


> You and your feelings are not her concern. They are just a trivial inconvenience to her.


Ouch! That one hit home.

That whole post was good. I'm giving it a second "like" here.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

She gets to go have her fun as a single woman and then come back to the safety of a home kept by you.

It is good for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Hi Paul and sorry to have you here mate! 

I don't think you need anyone to tell you what is going on - you already know (I am sure)!

The questions are how far does she go with these guys and what is a deal breaker for you ?

I think we can safely say that she goes out to "have a good time" with her sister and friends (all of whom you can view as toxic to your marriage). The "good time" almost certainly includes flirting, sex talk, touching, kissing, petting etc. The question is how often does it result in oral or PIV sex etc.?

And is any of this a deal breaker for you ?

Certainly investigate further but keep shtum until you have concrete evidence. However, the fact that you still cannot trust her and that she is a "party girl" already tells you that she is not for you (and not real marriage material), so why prolong this. Go find someone that will love you and respect you and don't waste any more time with her.

Don't waste any more of your life.


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