# What Defines a "Real Man"



## EllisRedding

I posted something about this in another thread, but JLD was right this would fit better as its own thread. Here is what I posted:

Here is an interesting article which for whatever reason feels the need to define what a "real man" is

A Real Man Doesn?t Hesitate When He Finds The Right Woman

My favorite quote:



> A real man is an experienced man; he’s been through enough failed relationships and met enough wrong women that when he meets the right woman, he knows what he’s found.


So I guess I am not a real man. My wife is the only real relationship I have been in, any ones before her were minimal at best. Guess I should break up with her, hoar myself around a bit, and once I achieve "Real Man" status see if she will take me back ...

Not that there aren't some good points in the article, but it basically reads as an article about how a man should worship a woman. Nowhere in the article does it talk about how the man should also expect back the same love/respect from the female. 

Side question for the women here, are there articles pushed on you about how to be a real woman and treat a man right, or is this just specific to guys?


----------



## Married but Happy

Meh. Determining what a "real" man is, depends on cultural stereotypes, which are relative and change with time. Even within a culture, there are many variants and opinions. So, I think the only "real" thing you can say about it is that someone who is true to themselves is - IMO - a real man. IMO, a real man is also someone who will do the right thing according to his values (even when those values are wrong or delusional or misdirected) - and a better man is one who will question and examine his values and change them when he discovers something better.


----------



## jld

I like this one better:

A Real Man


----------



## Ripper

EllisRedding said:


> basically reads as an article about how a man should worship a woman.


Yep.

Anytime I've heard the words "real man" uttered it has been an attempt to put a man back on his knees. Its always a bunch of tripe about selflessly servicing something or someone else.

Here's a pretty accurate definition shamelessly stolen from elsewhere.

_Real Man noun, plural Real Men;
1. term used as means of social or emotional blackmail
2. a challenge to a males social standing
3. obsolete means of control_

Your viewpoints may vary.


----------



## samyeagar

All you have to do is look at all the internet meme's about what real men are, and what real men do


----------



## Jung_admirer

What defines any human? 

A person who knows who they are and what they stand for. Consciousness
Being conscious is not enough. You must also have courage to support your convictions. Integrity
Integrity is not enough since part of our journey is to connect with others. Vulnerability


----------



## batsociety

It's the individual that defines their gender, not some cute little romantic article on the internet. A cute little romantic article whose target audience is women who like cute little romantic articles, not men who want to know what it takes to be a "real man".

Although I do love reading the comments from angry men.



> What the hell is this garbage? Is this a joke or is there a treacherous white knight among us? I refuse to believe a man wrote this unless his name is Beta Max because this is maximum level beta trash right here.


Amazing.


----------



## Kristisha

jld said:


> I like this one better:
> 
> A Real Man


 This is article hits the nail on the head!:wink2:


----------



## EleGirl

I don't think I have ever seen anything about what it takes to be a "Real Woman". A woman I a real woman if she has the right parts.

I think it's the same for men. Well except that they have to have male parts.


----------



## batsociety

EleGirl said:


> I don't think I have ever seen anything about what it takes to be a "Real Woman". A woman I a real woman if she has the right parts.
> 
> I think it's the same for men. Well except that they have to have male parts.


A person's _parts_ doesn't really have anything to do with it.


----------



## EleGirl

batsociety said:


> A person's _parts_ doesn't really have anything to do with it.


Then how do we know if we are a real woman or a real man?

Who defines that and who informs us?


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
Perhaps we just need to define what makes someone a "good person". 

Are there important differences between what is expected for a good man and a good woman? I can't think of any.


----------



## NobodySpecial

A real, authentic man or woman

1. Does not really give a rat's patootey what anyone ELSE thinks of their definition.

2. Bases the decisions of what is important based on character and integrity not based on selfish desire. 

3. Has the courage to face life with eyes and mind wide open, dealing with what IS.

My opinion.


----------



## batsociety

EleGirl said:


> Then how do we know if we are a real woman or a real man?
> 
> Who defines that and who informs us?


We define that. It's really not anyone else's business. It's in our heads, not our pants.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> I like this one better:
> 
> A Real Man


Is there a real woman equivalent?



EleGirl said:


> I don't think I have ever seen anything about what it takes to be a "Real Woman". A woman I a real woman if she has the right parts.
> 
> I think it's the same for men. Well except that they have to have male parts.


Nowadays I guess the "parts" seem to be more interchangeable 

I just find it interesting, at least in the article I quoted, a real man is defined essentially by how he acts towards a female. 

It has just got to be confusing these days for young men. Be yourself, don't be yourself, be alpha but not too alpha, be a nice guy ... oh wait, be a bad boy, worship women, treat them as equals, happy wife = happy life, etc ...


----------



## jld

Not from that site, no. It focuses on making men better men.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Is there a real woman equivalent?
> 
> 
> 
> Nowadays I guess the "parts" seem to be more interchangeable
> 
> I just find it interesting, at least in the article I quoted, a real man is defined essentially by how he acts towards a female.
> 
> It has just got to be confusing these days for young men. Be yourself, don't be yourself, be alpha but not too alpha, be a nice guy ... oh wait, be a bad boy, worship women, treat them as equals, happy wife = happy life, etc ...


The problem with all this advice is that it is all aimed at *acquiring* a female. A person who is themselves in the context of strength, character and integrity as well as confidence does not need female aqcuisition advice.


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> Is there a real woman equivalent?
> 
> 
> 
> Nowadays I guess the "parts" seem to be more interchangeable
> 
> I just find it interesting, at least in the article I quoted, a real man is defined essentially by how he acts towards a female.
> 
> It has just got to be confusing these days for young men. Be yourself, don't be yourself, be alpha but not too alpha, be a nice guy ... oh wait, be a bad boy, worship women, treat them as equals, happy wife = happy life, etc ...


Ah but a "real man" would not listen to all the contradicting voices. He be real... himself. >

There is just as much confusing stuff out there for women, believe me.


----------



## Big Dude

EllisRedding said:


> I just find it interesting, at least in the article I quoted, a real man is defined essentially by how he acts towards a female.


This idea is silly. I judge a man's real-ness by how he keeps his lawn. Overgrown and ugly? Not a real man. Hires somebody else to mow it for him? Not a real man. Doesn't even have a yard? Ditto. It's amazing how silly people can be regarding male real-ness. :smile2:


----------



## Married but Happy

I think Lila's list is a good one for any Good Person.


----------



## samyeagar

EllisRedding said:


> Is there a real woman equivalent?
> 
> 
> 
> Nowadays I guess the "parts" seem to be more interchangeable
> 
> I just find it interesting, at least in the article I quoted, a real man is defined essentially by how he acts towards a female.
> 
> It has just got to be confusing these days for young men. Be yourself, don't be yourself, be alpha but not too alpha, be a nice guy ... oh wait, be a bad boy, worship women, treat them as equals, happy wife = happy life, etc ...


The only women who deserve to be treated like queens are the ones who treat their men like kings.


----------



## Deejo

Mr. Hudson contributes regularly to Elite Daily and The Good Men Project.

And ... has his own website: Home - Paul Hudson

And ... suffers the exact same thing that so many here do. What It Feels Like When You're Always An Option And Never A Priority

I'm left with the impression that he's young, and opinionated, and likes the attention he gets with the words he writes, which of course there is nothing wrong with.

Does he know what a real man is? I can all but guarantee if he's thinking about that question it's because he either recently has, or is about to have his heart ripped out by a woman that can make him sob like a baby. 

Once one has achieved, 'Real Man' status, one doesn't much wonder about what it is or what it means. 

They just do it. And they don't complain about it.


----------



## Fozzy

No matter how much of a "real man" you are, there's always going to be somebody that thinks you're a girly-man. Regardless of your mechanicing skills, your lawn, your muscles, your emotional availability (or lack thereof--if that defines a man for you).

All you can do is be a good you. And tell all the haters to f*ck off.


----------



## 2&out

A real man ? This ones easy - Al Bundy ("Love and marriage, love and marriage...)


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening Fozzy
I'm really not trying to give you a bad time since I know the phrase is in common use, but couldn't "girly-man" be viewed as an extremely biased term? Isn't it implying that women are so inferior to men that to call a man a "girl" is the ultimate insult?

At the same time I understand the idea behind the phrase, it just seems unfortunate. I can't think of a better one in common use though. 

Or maybe you were making fun of people who use that term, in which case, I'm suitable embarrassed for not getting ig.




Fozzy said:


> No matter how much of a "real man" you are, there's always going to be somebody that thinks you're a girly-man. Regardless of your mechanicing skills, your lawn, your muscles, your emotional availability (or lack thereof--if that defines a man for you).
> 
> All you can do is be a good you. And tell all the haters to f*ck off.


----------



## Kristisha

2&out said:


> A real man ? This ones easy - Al Bundy ("Love and marriage, love and marriage...)


That TV show was proper funny>


----------



## Fozzy

richardsharpe said:


> Or maybe you were making fun of people who use that term, in which case, I'm suitable embarrassed for not getting ig.


That was actually my intent, yeah. So much internet posturing goes on with the "I'm more alpha than you" types. It always seemed to me that it's done more to impress other men than it is to impress women.

Which is kind of dopey.


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> That was actually my intent, yeah. So much internet posturing goes on with the "I'm more alpha than you" types. It always seemed to me that it's done more to impress other men than it is to impress women.
> 
> Which is kind of dopey.


Boy, "alpha" is a loaded word. Makes me think of playboys and barbarians, both of whom sound pretty dangerous.

I prefer to think in terms of mature, responsible men. And I would love to see men try to impress other men with how mature and responsible they are.


----------



## Somanylemons

I really hate the term 'real man', it makes me worry about the sort of nonsense my son will have to grow up with. 

I don't think there is such a thing as real men or real women.


----------



## Fozzy

jld said:


> Boy, "alpha" is a loaded word. Makes me think of playboys and barbarians, both of whom sound pretty dangerous.
> 
> I prefer to think in terms of mature, responsible men. And I would love to see men try to impress other men with how mature and responsible they are.


That's called leading by example, and it's a great thing. But it rarely is associated with telling some other guy "you're not a real man unless you do things my way".


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> That's called leading by example, and it's a great thing. But it rarely is associated with telling some other guy "you're not a real man unless you do things my way".


Thing is, Fozzy, I don't think all men know what a good example is. And articles like the ones mentioned can give them an idea.

For example, at one time I think many men thought the way to deal with frustrations with their wives was to beat them. But social pressure, and increased legal and economic opportunities for women, curbed that.


----------



## Fozzy

Absolutely! Look, i'm not saying that men shouldn't have examples, or that they shouldn't try to BE an example. I'm just saying that the term "Real Man" when used in that context seems manipulative to me. It can be used just as easily to manipulate someone into bad behavior as good. "Real men take what they want". "Real men don't accept back-talk", etc.

Kind of like the Valentines Day commercials you hear every year--"Remember ladies, if your man doesn't buy you a diamond of a caret or more...he doesn't REALLY love you"


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> Absolutely! Look, i'm not saying that men shouldn't have examples, or that they shouldn't try to BE an example. I'm just saying that the term "Real Man" when used in that context seems manipulative to me. It can be used just as easily to manipulate someone into bad behavior as good. "Real men take what they want". "Real men don't accept back-talk", etc.
> 
> Kind of like the Valentines Day commercials you hear every year--"Remember ladies, if your man doesn't buy you a diamond of a caret or more...he doesn't REALLY love you"


I don't think money on more than a basic level should figure into love. I think it is risky to get into expensive gift-giving if you are not wealthy. Jmo.

Everyone will define a Real Man differently. Look at how the Marlboro Man was used to sell cigarettes. Anyone impressed with smoking now, decades later?

My opinion is that men should focus on being mature and responsible. That is the base. Good women will be drawn to that. Most of the rest is optional.


----------



## Marduk

A real man does what he has to do for no other reason than it's the right thing to do and he's capable of doing it.


----------



## jld

marduk said:


> A real man does what he has to do for no other reason than it's the right thing to do and he's capable of doing it.


It's okay if he needs to stretch himself a little to do it, too.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> It's okay if he needs to stretch himself a little to do it, too.


I define capable = able to achieve before death.


----------



## RoseAglow

"Mature and responsible"- to me, these are necessary components of a "Real Man" and a "Real Woman". 

A "Real" man or woman is basically an adult who is well-developed enough to handle life, and "real" is akin to "developed"; someone who isn't yet a "real man" or a "real woman" just hasn't quite matured enough yet. 

We are all developing/growing so we all have the opportunity to become more "Real", in my perspective.


----------



## morituri

marduk said:


> I define capable = able to achieve before death.


Or to prevent.


----------



## chillymorn

well the simplest definition is obvious.

a twig and berries of course.


----------



## Kitt

Real man, as opposed to what? A blow up doll....I hear they have some with attachable penises now.


----------



## NotEasy

Big Dude said:


> This idea is silly. I judge a man's real-ness by how he keeps his lawn. Overgrown and ugly? Not a real man. Hires somebody else to mow it for him? Not a real man. Doesn't even have a yard? Ditto. It's amazing how silly people can be regarding male real-ness. :smile2:


Or its amazing how silly some people can be regarding lawns. jk

I had a lawn, mown twice a week or more in spring/summer, edged, fertilized, weeded. Three of us were vying for best lawn in the street. We were childish.
Then moved to an apartment.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

EllisRedding said:


> A Real Man Doesn?t Hesitate When He Finds The Right Woman


I've read A LOT of articles like this when I was trying to sort through the whole ALPHA / BETA thing upon landing here.....just trying to make more sense of it -with so many mixed messages, then adding how VERY different women can be in what they want & what's important to US in a man.... When I came across a certain article on the net... it CAPTURED ALL I was feeling..and I did a thread on this too! 

Here's mine *>>* http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...thy-praise-honor-minus-alpha-beta-debate.html




> *EllisReading said*: *My favorite quote:
> 
> So I guess I am not a real man. My wife is the only real relationship I have been in, any ones before her were minimal at best*.


 Same is true with us... he's only had 2 former puppy love Girlfriends -like age 14ish before me. 



> *Not that there aren't some good points in the article, but it basically reads as an article about how a man should worship a woman. Nowhere in the article does it talk about how the man should also expect back the same love/respect from the female.*


 Is it bad for me to say that I feel most of that article fits my husband in those respects... he's always treated me like I was the most special thing in his world...from when we met... but I'll be the 1st to say.. a woman needs to BE and DO the same in return or it's not healthy.. ya know.. 

I tried to GIVE that back...from our ends, as I've seen many men here bring this up after a # of articles like this given by the ladies..








...so many of them asking... *"What about the woman...where are those articles!!??".*... so I took that on.. have you clicked on this Ellis ... I'd really enjoy hearing your thoughts.. ... anything you might add, from your own marriage... or take away.. 








http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...ion-our-husbands-shake-up-rock-his-world.html


----------



## MountainRunner

NobodySpecial said:


> The problem with all this advice is that it is all aimed at *acquiring* a female. A person who is themselves in the context of strength, character and integrity as well as confidence does not need female aqcuisition advice.


QFT...


----------



## MountainRunner

samyeagar said:


> The only women who deserve to be treated like queens are the ones who treat their men like kings.


And so for a wife who is disabled, what would you suggest? Let's say she has physical handicaps that prevent her from simply jumping on one's c0ck and riding him until he "hits the ceiling", or handicapped to where she relies upon her husband to handle the bulk of the chores and heavy lifting. Let's say she needs help a lot of time and cannot return the favor due to her handicaps. Sure she treats him nicely and appreciates what he does for her, but let's say she cannot necessarily return "like for like", what would you suggest? When I came here with my problems, some members of the "MMSL crew" suggested I kick her to the curb.

To which I replied..."I will not"...And that is why I take umbrage with a lot of what the "wannabes" are selling.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Ripper said:


> Anytime I've heard the words "real man" uttered it has been an attempt to put a man back on his knees. Its always a bunch of tripe about selflessly servicing something or someone else.
> 
> Here's a pretty accurate definition shamelessly stolen from elsewhere.
> 
> _Real Man noun, plural Real Men;
> 1. term used as means of social or emotional blackmail
> 2. a challenge to a males social standing
> 3. obsolete means of control_
> 
> Your viewpoints may vary.


My viewpoint varies.. yes...I don't look at this the same as you ... I haven't abused it like that... (this is not to say it isn't used like this .. of course!)

1st of all.. it would be a better world if every one of us cared to better ourselves & our relationships, so apathy is less likely to set in.. or feeling disconnected.. let down by the other .... to keep the passion, the laughter...validating each other.. 

A large part of this is being self aware of how we AFFECT our spouses/ partners .... isn't it??

Some of us need to step it up in the communication.. some need to start by keeping their word, maybe step it up in the bedroom to please our spouses.. whatever it is.. nothing wrong with reading articles that can *INSPIRE *that within us.. some will be helpful.. and others we'll have to take what resonates.. and throw some of it out.. (I've certainly thrown plenty out in some of the stuff I have read !)

I guess I come from the mindset ...that a GOOD MAN will inspire within the woman to be a better woman.. and a Good Woman will inspire within the man to be the BEST he can be for her & their family..

Maybe it's the wording that puts people off... as if one is not a REAL (which is silly but plenty of men can squirt out the sperm & be a real douchbag -sure they are real.. but they sure as hell aren't honorable or responsible! 

There is always room for improvement...we should consider such things.. for the benefit of all.. 

Anymore, it seems to me that if one holds Goodness up.. it gets chopped down...and spit upon.. BAD has become GOOD.. and GOOD has become BAD... 

I just feel most of these articles have nuggets of wisdom in them... it sure beats Pick up Artist SH**.. if you are looking for more than casual sex, that is..



jld said:


> *I like this one better:*
> 
> A Real Man


Worthy to post.. I love most of these.. a few I could argue a thing or 2.. not sure my H would want to take on another's child.. but he would if he loved the woman, that's part of the package. 











On the REAL WOMAN end.. when Heartsbeating posted this years ago.. I loved it SO much.. I saved it.. I agreed whole heartily.. do I always measure up.. NO! But it's surely something worthy to strive for...



> *Heartsbeating said*: To me, a woman is someone that has maturity. She displays compassion, intuition, self-acceptance and strength. She is able to embrace and welcome. She is able to set boundaries and say no.
> 
> She is emotional but is not a slave to her emotions. She allows herself to be vulnerable. She has self-respect. She inspires. She is comfortable in her own skin and from that place, she helps to put others at ease too.
> 
> There is a kindness and softness as well as an inner strength. She is intelligent. And being intelligent doesn't equate to having a degree, no it's more than that. It's about wisdom and social intelligence. A woman is able to say sorry and admit her mistakes. A woman is someone you trust, you know you are seeing the real them, and you know she sees beyond the superficial. She has self-awareness.


----------



## tech-novelist

NobodySpecial said:


> The problem with all this advice is that it is all aimed at *acquiring* a female. A person who is themselves in the context of strength, character and integrity as well as confidence does not need female aqcuisition advice.


Right, as long as they also are attractive to women.
If they aren't attractive to women, even though they have those attributes, then they have to change. Assuming they want to attract women, of course.


----------



## tech-novelist

MountainRunner said:


> And so for a wife who is disabled, what would you suggest? Let's say she has physical handicaps that prevent her from simply jumping on one's c0ck and riding him until he "hits the ceiling", or handicapped to where she relies upon her husband to handle the bulk of the chores and heavy lifting. Let's say she needs help a lot of time and cannot return the favor due to her handicaps. Sure she treats him nicely and appreciates what he does for her, but let's say she cannot necessarily return "like for like", what would you suggest? When I came here with my problems, some members of the "MMSL crew" suggested I kick her to the curb.
> 
> To which I replied..."I will not"...And that is why I take umbrage with a lot of what the "wannabes" are selling.


Anyone who would say that you should dump her, in your circumstances, is not a real man.

And that is not intended in the least to be sarcastic or humorous in any way.


----------



## Ripper

Minus the child part, I've done everything else on that little yellow list. Some for women, others for the government. All I got to show for it is some permanent physical injuries and a head full of bad memories. Its a dead end street. Literally, for a few friends of mine.

My advise for any young guys out there, go tell society to pound its "real man" expectations up its ass and go live for yourself.


----------



## MountainRunner

technovelist said:


> Anyone who would say that you should dump her, in your circumstances, is not a real man.
> 
> And that is not intended in the least to be sarcastic or humorous in any way.


I had more than a couple of the red pill/MMSL crew say "What are you even doing with her? What is she doing for you? Divorce her."

A few called her a "druggie" and a "pothead" because she is a MMJ patient due to her disabilities. She read what was said about her from "MEN" and has now decided that she does not want to participate here because of what these "Mommie's boys" (my term) said about my wife.

So my wife cannot reciprocate what I do for her. I don't recall anything in our wedding vows that even intimated anything like...

"Should one partner become handicapped where one cannot reciprocate affections and/or acts of service/affection, one should be allowed to kick said failing spouse to said curb."

The "boys" (yeas I said it) that subscribe to that MMSL/red pill [email protected] are a bunch of selfish crybabies IMO.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

batsociety said:


> It's the individual that defines their gender, not some cute little romantic article on the internet. A cute little romantic article whose target audience is women who like cute little romantic articles, not men who want to know what it takes to be a "real man".


 It wasn't a woman who wrote that article.. his name was Paul... this article also was written by a MAN.. a husband looking back with regret due to not caring for his wife & it resulted in her leaving him.....

Marriage Advice I wish I would have had? ....his article generally has men giving a fair amount of criticism .. but I can see why he wrote as he did.. as he DIDN'T live what he wrote.. but being self aware as he became in hindsight... he feels had he moved more in this direction -it could have saved his marriage.. (again he didn't live this.. but felt it could be helpful to other men - to avoid the mistakes he made)...

Also the article I found on the net -that I made a thread... also was written by A MAN.. So these are not just Cute romantic articles penned by women watching too many Disney movies... 



> *Ripper said*: *Minus the child part, I've done everything else on that little yellow list. Some for women, others for the government. All I got to show for it is some permanent physical injuries and a head full of bad memories. Its a dead end street. Literally, for a few friends of mine.
> 
> My advise for any young guys out there, go tell society to pound its "real man" expectations up its ass and go live for yourself*.


 It sounds you are a War veteran Ripper....and I am guessing the woman you loved hurt you very deeply...you gave your all.. and it seems for nothing.. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be in your shoes.. I can't... your anger is so understandable [email protected]# 

Last week we watched our 2nd son walk to get his diploma.. they announced what each Graduate planned to do ...which did I clap the hardest for.. and also have the greatest concern.. admirable ... those going into the ARMY.... These are our REAL HERO's...not some damn Football player/ rock star or movie star who gets all the comforts in life & abuses it so bad....

But you who have put your lives on the line...sacrificing family, comfort & OMG, so much more!!.. 

I can not even listen to this song - I'm proud to be an American  ...I will get teary eyed.... those words.. we don't do enough for our veterans.. not near. Just saying.. I am reading a lot into your post here.. 

I had an Uncle sprayed with Agent Orange in Vietnam that died yrs before his likely time... these are devastating breaks.. though I seen him more ANGRY over a woman he loved...yrs before this.. he never got over her...was very bitter.. more so over that than his coming to terms with his dying at age 54.


----------



## coffee4me

SimplyAmorous said:


> Anymore, it seems to me that if one holds Goodness up.. it gets chopped down...and spit upon.. BAD has become GOOD.. and GOOD has become BAD...


That is so true!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MountainRunner said:


> I had more than a couple of the red pill/MMSL crew say "What are you even doing with her? What is she doing for you? Divorce her."
> 
> A few called her a "druggie" and a "pothead" because she is a MMJ patient due to her disabilities. She read what was said about her from "MEN" and has now decided that she does not want to participate here because of what these "Mommie's boys" (my term) said about my wife.
> 
> So my wife cannot reciprocate what I do for her. I don't recall anything in our wedding vows that even intimated anything like...
> 
> "Should one partner become handicapped where one cannot reciprocate affections and/or acts of service/affection, one should be allowed to kick said failing spouse to said curb."
> 
> The "boys" (yeas I said it) that subscribe to that MMSL/red pill [email protected] are a bunch of selfish crybabies IMO.


I don't know what MMJ means.. I've seen many of your posts, but never read that your wife had disabilities.. 

Extremely admirable.. These are my personal worst fears, if I may be so honest..... that something like this happens to Myself OR my husband.. I expect our bodies to fall apart when we get older but not when we're younger...I don't think I would handle it well.. I'd be a horrible patient.. It would be very angry not being able to do for myself... or to take care of him / my kids in the ways I am used to... 

I also think those in any caretaker role needs a lot of support outside of the home.. I am always in AWE of those who love so deeply ... unfortunately many do walk away... they can't emotionally handle it...I've seen it !! From a young Gf who left her husband on kidney dialysis -he had diabetes really bad.. he died in his early 30's -pretty much alone.. .. to a neighbor who got MS.. and her husband left her... just devastating..


----------



## Kristisha

MountainRunner said:


> I had more than a couple of the red pill/MMSL crew say "What are you even doing with her? What is she doing for you? Divorce her."
> 
> A few called her a "druggie" and a "pothead" because she is a MMJ patient due to her disabilities. She read what was said about her from "MEN" and has now decided that she does not want to participate here because of what these "Mommie's boys" (my term) said about my wife.
> 
> So my wife cannot reciprocate what I do for her. I don't recall anything in our wedding vows that even intimated anything like...
> 
> "Should one partner become handicapped where one cannot reciprocate affections and/or acts of service/affection, one should be allowed to kick said failing spouse to said curb."
> 
> The "boys" (yeas I said it) that subscribe to that MMSL/red pill [email protected] are a bunch of selfish crybabies IMO.


I've been with something somilar with my H and I had good friends telling me to leave him. It was heartbreaking for me, especially since they were people close to us.

His recovery was amazing but he will never be like a normal person again due to his nerve pains and some areas that he doesn't have any feeling in.

Marriage it's all about being there for one another especially in situation like this, and you learn to adapt every day to new situations.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

EllisRedding said:


> I posted something about this in another thread, but JLD was right this would fit better as its own thread. Here is what I posted:
> 
> Here is an interesting article which for whatever reason feels the need to define what a "real man" is
> 
> A Real Man Doesn?t Hesitate When He Finds The Right Woman
> 
> My favorite quote:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess I am not a real man. My wife is the only real relationship I have been in, any ones before her were minimal at best. Guess I should break up with her, hoar myself around a bit, and once I achieve "Real Man" status see if she will take me back ...
> 
> Not that there aren't some good points in the article, but it basically reads as an article about how a man should worship a woman. Nowhere in the article does it talk about how the man should also expect back the same love/respect from the female.
> 
> Side question for the women here, are there articles pushed on you about how to be a real woman and treat a man right, or is this just specific to guys?


Maybe you are just lucky. I marvel at how successful I have been in all parts of my life besides relationships and I have attributed that to, too few serious relationships in my life. I have not had enough failure to properly recognize success, at least maybe not until now. But that does not make me a "real" man. I do believe if I stumbled onto the "right" women I could have carried on for life with the same women and never looked back....


----------



## NotEasy

Ellis, I can't figure out if you owe me for a day lost contemplating this, or I owe you for a very interesting day. 

And I think I am days away from any answer.



EllisRedding said:


> Here is an interesting article which for whatever reason feels the need to define what a "real man" is
> 
> A Real Man Doesn?t Hesitate When He Finds The Right Woman
> 
> My favorite quote:
> *A real man is an experienced man; he’s been through enough failed relationships and met enough wrong women that when he meets the right woman, he knows what he’s found.*


The quote was my least favourite part. It sounds like an old sexists Aussie meme that a Real Man has 20 conquests before he marries a virgin. The idea is his conquests prove he is a real man, her virginity proves she is a real woman. Yuck.
But separate from that, I don't see how he knows this is the right woman. I don't see how a failed relationship teaches that. If he can spot the right woman straight away, why did he start the other relationships? At best he merely knows this woman is different, so he might just be heading towards a different failure.
TAM (and real life) has many who have been injured by breakups. Some have learned from these breakups. They realise their flaws and improve themselves. Certainly I rarely change and relationship failure is the sort of shock needed to shake me up. But people should always be able to improve themselves. And if he only improves after relationship failure then will he ever change again?



EllisRedding said:


> So I guess I am not a real man. My wife is the only real relationship I have been in, any ones before her were minimal at best. Guess I should break up with her, hoar myself around a bit, and once I achieve "Real Man" status see if she will take me back ...


I have similar history to you.
Personally I think I only started growing up after marriage. Although my wife doubts I have ever grown up.



EllisRedding said:


> Not that there aren't some good points in the article, but it basically reads as an article about how a man should worship a woman. Nowhere in the article does it talk about how the man should also expect back the same love/respect from the female.


To me, the article is perhaps about Real Metrosexual Man, or Real Commitment Phobia Man.



EllisRedding said:


> Side question for the women here, are there articles pushed on you about how to be a real woman and treat a man right, or is this just specific to guys?


I also wonder about this. I don't have Real Woman as a concept. Maybe because I am male and being a Real Man is my personal target. Perhaps because to me all woman are real, the rest are just girls. Still trying to figure this out.


----------



## NobodySpecial

technovelist said:


> Right, as long as they also are attractive to women.
> If they aren't attractive to women, even though they have those attributes, then they have to change. Assuming they want to attract women, of course.


I would venture to say that if this person is "not attractive" to any woman with whom he is compatible, then he is inauthentic. Playing games. And THAT is unattractive to many women.


----------



## samyeagar

MountainRunner said:


> And so for a wife who is disabled, what would you suggest? Let's say she has physical handicaps that prevent her from simply jumping on one's c0ck and riding him until he "hits the ceiling", or handicapped to where she relies upon her husband to handle the bulk of the chores and heavy lifting. Let's say she needs help a lot of time and cannot return the favor due to her handicaps. Sure she treats him nicely and appreciates what he does for her, but let's say she cannot necessarily return "like for like", what would you suggest? When I came here with my problems, some members of the "MMSL crew" suggested I kick her to the curb.
> 
> To which I replied..."I will not"...And that is why I take umbrage with a lot of what the "wannabes" are selling.


Presumably, since they are married, there was already some time in the relationship for certain types of good treatment, and treating her husband like a king doesn't have to stop, it just has to change. In most relationships, it's not a like for like anyway, as everybody has different ways of loving and being loved.

In your hypothetical, I would suggest that the couple find ways of maintaining the bonds they have, and finding a new way forward.


----------



## NotEasy

MountainRunner said:


> I had more than a couple of the red pill/MMSL crew say "What are you even doing with her? What is she doing for you? Divorce her."
> 
> A few called her a "druggie" and a "pothead" because she is a MMJ patient due to her disabilities. She read what was said about her from "MEN" and has now decided that she does not want to participate here because of what these "Mommie's boys" (my term) said about my wife.
> 
> So my wife cannot reciprocate what I do for her. I don't recall anything in our wedding vows that even intimated anything like...
> 
> "Should one partner become handicapped where one cannot reciprocate affections and/or acts of service/affection, one should be allowed to kick said failing spouse to said curb."
> 
> The "boys" (yeas I said it) that subscribe to that MMSL/red pill [email protected] are a bunch of selfish crybabies IMO.


Sorry to hear your problems MountainRunner, but glad to hear your response.
Part of my definition of a RealMan is they stand behind their vows. People should really consider marriage vows. Each party agrees separately, it is never "I will if you will". My vows included "in sickness and in health". You are getting the "in sickness" part and I am proud of your response.


----------



## EllisRedding

SimplyAmorous said:


> Worthy to post.. I love most of these.. a few I could argue a thing or 2.. not sure my H would want to take on another's child.. but he would if he loved the woman, that's part of the package.


Hmmm... this made me think if I would raise someone else's child. Although not really ideal in my mind, if I really loved the woman then I would probably have no issues with. After all, it is not the child's fault that things with his parents didn't work out, and I would look at it as a positive to be a role model for the child. Also, if the child is a lefty male I know there is a chance he could become a pitcher in the Major Leagues 

My uncle is raising one child that isn't his own, but unless someone told you, you would never know. He loves that kid with all his heart, it is so awesome to see



ScrambledEggs said:


> Maybe you are just lucky. I marvel at how successful I have been in all parts of my life besides relationships and I have attributed that to, too few serious relationships in my life. I have not had enough failure to properly recognize success, at least maybe not until now. But that does not make me a "real" man. I do believe if I stumbled onto the "right" women I could have carried on for life with the same women and never looked back....


Yeah, I honestly believe I lucked out. My wife and I were talking about this, and it is amazing how decisions that were so inconsequential at the time would have completely changed things had they not happened. For example, I met my wife at college, a college I didn't even apply to. My Mom decided to apply for me. I had other colleges that I had gotten in to that I planned on going to, but the one my Mom had applied for me to I got a full academic scholarship, so that pretty much made the decision for me. Had I not gotten that scholarship, or had my Mom not applied, I would have not met my wife and who knows where my life would be (professionally and also from a relationship standpoint). Given my personality where I am happy being by myself and won't take crap from anyone, I could have just as easily ended up hopping from relationship to relationship with nothing to show for it.



NotEasy said:


> Ellis, I can't figure out if you owe me for a day lost contemplating this, or I owe you for a very interesting day.
> 
> And I think I am days away from any answer.
> 
> I have similar history to you.
> Personally I think I only started growing up after marriage. Although my wife doubts I have ever grown up.


Haha. This stuff is interesting to me since a lot of this stuff I never really had to deal with. In part, I am just trying to get a sense of what my kids will be walking in to when they get older.

So agree with you on growing up after marriage, even if at times my wife thinks I am a 5yr old trapped in an adult body :grin2:


----------



## tech-novelist

MountainRunner said:


> I had more than a couple of the red pill/MMSL crew say "What are you even doing with her? What is she doing for you? Divorce her."
> 
> A few called her a "druggie" and a "pothead" because she is a MMJ patient due to her disabilities. She read what was said about her from "MEN" and has now decided that she does not want to participate here because of what these "Mommie's boys" (my term) said about my wife.
> 
> So my wife cannot reciprocate what I do for her. I don't recall anything in our wedding vows that even intimated anything like...
> 
> "Should one partner become handicapped where one cannot reciprocate affections and/or acts of service/affection, one should be allowed to kick said failing spouse to said curb."
> 
> The "boys" (yeas I said it) that subscribe to that MMSL/red pill [email protected] are a bunch of selfish crybabies IMO.


Again, not all men who subscribe to the red pill would give you that advice, so it is not inherent in the red pill. 

Obviously I wouldn't, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.


----------



## tech-novelist

NobodySpecial said:


> I would venture to say that if this person is "not attractive" to any woman with whom he is compatible, then he is inauthentic. Playing games. And THAT is unattractive to many women.


That is easy for you to say, as you have never been a man who is unattractive to women by "being himself". For such men, "being themselves" doesn't work, so they have to change their behavior.

This isn't rocket science.


----------



## NobodySpecial

technovelist said:


> That is easy for you to say, as you have never been a man who is unattractive to women by "being himself". For such men, "being themselves" doesn't work, so they have to change their behavior.
> 
> This isn't rocket science.


I just don't agree with you. If what one is AIMING at is to "work" with the giant category of "women", THEN their attitude is severely unattractive. I disagree with your horse and cart order.


----------



## tech-novelist

NobodySpecial said:


> I just don't agree with you. If what one is AIMING at is to "work" with the giant category of "women", THEN their attitude is severely unattractive. I disagree with your horse and cart order.


I know you don't agree with me.
However, your agreement, or lack thereof, has no bearing on the question of what men who aren't attracting women should do.
Hope that helps.


----------



## jld

technovelist said:


> That is easy for you to say, as you have never been a man who is unattractive to women by "being himself". For such men, "being themselves" doesn't work, so they have to change their behavior.
> 
> This isn't rocket science.


I bet that hurts, to feel like yourself, just the way you are, is not good enough somehow.


----------



## tech-novelist

jld said:


> I bet that hurts, to feel like yourself, just the way you are, is not good enough somehow.


Yes, that feeling is very painful.

However, the purpose of pain is to signal that something is wrong. In this case, there is something that can be done, and the pain is an impetus for change.


----------



## NobodySpecial

technovelist said:


> I know you don't agree with me.
> However, your agreement, or lack thereof, has no bearing on the question of what men who aren't attracting women should do.
> Hope that helps.


I think it does. If one agrees with me, one will be more concerned with their character and integrity then whether or not the mass of females in the world want him, especially since it is really only necessary to be attractive to on for most monogamous people. This, in turn, will increase the likelihood that he will actually meet someone *compatible* rather than just any old female. This, in turn, will increase BOTH their likelihood of happiness since they are actually compatible AS THEY ARE without him pretending to be someone he is not in order to catch someone.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I bet that hurts, to feel like yourself, just the way you are, is not good enough somehow.


Good enough for whom? For an entire gender? A person who is good enough for themselves are just going to be good enough for someone else.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Good enough for whom? For an entire gender? A person who is good enough for themselves are just going to be good enough for someone else.


Good enough for his wife, to keep her attracted.


----------



## tech-novelist

NobodySpecial said:


> I think it does. If one agrees with me, one will be more concerned with their character and integrity then whether or not the mass of females in the world want him, especially since it is really only necessary to be attractive to on for most monogamous people. This, in turn, will increase the likelihood that he will actually meet someone *compatible* rather than just any old female. This, in turn, will increase BOTH their likelihood of happiness since they are actually compatible AS THEY ARE without him pretending to be someone he is not in order to catch someone.


What I am saying is that character and integrity, although they are *necessary* (here we agree), are *not sufficient to attract a woman* (here we disagree).

So if a man wants to attract a woman, and he finds that character and integrity aren't enough, then he has to change his behavior to be more attractive, without in the process giving up his character and integrity.

I can't believe anyone could fail to understand that, but maybe I'm wrong in that (lack of) belief.


----------



## tech-novelist

jld said:


> Good enough for his wife, to keep her attracted.


Exactly. 

Please note that I have not had that unfortunate experience (loss of attraction) in my current marriage, although I did in my previous one (which contributed to my leaving that marriage).

However, I was becoming concerned about its happening in my current marriage, which is why I started looking for information about what could be done to prevent that occurrence.

Partly as a result of how I applied my new knowledge, we are now happier after almost 20 years together than any other couple of which I have personal knowledge.


----------



## NobodySpecial

technovelist said:


> What I am saying is that character and integrity, although they are *necessary* (here we agree), are *not sufficient to attract a woman* (here we disagree).
> 
> So if a man wants to attract a woman, and he finds that character and integrity aren't enough, then he has to change his behavior to be more attractive, without in the process giving up his character and integrity.
> 
> I can't believe anyone could fail to understand that, but maybe I'm wrong in that (lack of) belief.


You can't believe that someone would fail to understand? Yet I am not failing to understand. I am not speaking just to character and integrity but the pursuit of a woman or women as one might pursue the acquisition of a car. And I DO know because I WAS pursued like the acquisition of a car. It made my skin crawl. If someone is like that and manages to attract someone, then I am betting good money on a bad match.


----------



## tech-novelist

NobodySpecial said:


> You can't believe that someone would fail to understand? Yet I am not failing to understand. I am not speaking just to character and integrity but the pursuit of a woman or women as one might pursue the acquisition of a car. And I DO know because I WAS pursued like the acquisition of a car. It made my skin crawl. If someone is like that and manages to attract someone, then I am betting good money on a bad match.


If I want something, and it doesn't fall into my lap, then I pursue it.
What do you do in that case?


----------



## NobodySpecial

technovelist said:


> If I want something, and it doesn't fall into my lap, then I pursue it.
> What do you do in that case?


As a woman, when pursued by men who saw me solely as an instance of class "woman", I found it VERY unattractive, since human beings are different than objects. And I wanted someone who wanted ME, not "women" or a woman.

I got him! Yay!


----------



## tech-novelist

NobodySpecial said:


> As a woman, when pursued by men who saw me solely as an instance of class "woman", I found it VERY unattractive, since human beings are different than objects. And I wanted someone who wanted ME, not "women" or a woman.
> 
> I got him! Yay!


I'm happy for you, but of course this doesn't answer the original question of what a man should do if he doesn't attract women by "being himself".


----------



## Wolf1974

samyeagar said:


> The only women who deserve to be treated like queens are the ones who treat their men like kings.


Like x 1000 sir

Well said and definitely true. Wish I had gotten this advice growing up


----------



## NobodySpecial

technovelist said:


> I'm happy for you, but of course this doesn't answer the original question of what a man should do if he doesn't attract women by "being himself".


It does. Be a decent human being who does not seek to acquire an instance of the female class but actually sees, likes, engages with respect toward other people.


----------



## NobodySpecial

^^ ANyway what do I know. I know what makes my DH attractive to me. And what I consider to be a real man.


----------



## tech-novelist

NobodySpecial said:


> It does. Be a decent human being who does not seek to acquire an instance of the female class but actually sees, likes, engages with respect toward other people.


That will work fine... for men to whom women are attracted when those men "are themselves". For other men, it won't work.

As in other types of object-oriented programming, doing the "same thing" is implemented differently in different polymorphic classes. 

Oh, this isn't the nerd thread? Never mind then.


----------



## NobodySpecial

If I had to be someone else to attract a mate, I would not want a mate. AND I would go so far as to think that a person who would change themselves into someone else is devoid of the character, integrity and confidence that would render them ACTUALLY attractive rather than play actor at attractiveness. God help the person stuck with a person like that.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

NobodySpecial said:


> If I had to be someone else to attract a mate, I would not want a mate. AND I would go so far as to think that a person who would change themselves into someone else is devoid of the character, integrity and confidence that would render them ACTUALLY attractive rather than play actor at attractiveness. God help the person stuck with a person like that.



Personality is fluid, we are always changing into someone else, I am not even remotely the same person I was 20 years ago


----------



## samyeagar

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Personality is fluid, we are always changing into someone else, I am not even remotely the same person I was 20 years ago


Where I think the point of contention is for some people is that the act of making a conscious choice to change is seen as unnatural, or forced sometimes, depending on how they feel about the perceived underlying motivation.

Behavioral modification is accepted and suggested all the time here, and elsewhere in the real world as a means to an end...so long as the suggestor agrees with the end.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

samyeagar said:


> Where I think the point of contention is for some people is that the act of making a conscious choice to change is seen as unnatural, or forced sometimes, depending on how they feel about the perceived underlying motivation.
> 
> Behavioral modification is accepted and suggested all the time here, and elsewhere in the real world as a means to an end...so long as the suggestor agrees with the end.



I agree, a change in personality or behavior unsettles people but a conscious decision to make positive changes to achieve a goal is natural behavior, evolution if you will


----------



## EllisRedding

Julius Beastcavern said:


> I agree, a change in personality or behavior unsettles people but a conscious decision to make positive changes to achieve a goal is natural behavior, evolution if you will


Completely agree, and this happens all the time. I have consciously changed my behavior for example when I had kids (i.e. there are things I would have done but now that I am responsible parent I need to do things differently, etc...). I don't follow this assumption that behavioral change is bad, as you said, as long as it is a conscious decision.


----------



## Marduk

Being a real man has nothing to do with women, animals, or anything else.

Particularly that patently ludicrous yellow image. 

All these things are side effects of being a real man. As I define it.

A real man stuck on a desert island with no women in sight is still a real man. 

Any attempts to give lists of how "a real man" treats a woman...

Just sad. Because a real man defines himself independently of such things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *I bet that hurts, to feel like yourself, just the way you are, is not good enough somehow*.


But it could be good for someone else.. depending...

I look at the being yourself ...it's not so black & white.. so much variation in our world.. I tend to pound the compatibility thing badly here (religiously)...cause I feel very strongly about it...

True is.. MANY will NOT like us for who we are...they may find us annoying or don't care for our sense of humor.. or how we look at Politics , or religion...or SEX!.... we just wouldn't be compatible with those people!! .. Where something is a turn off to one person.. it could be a breath of fresh air to another.. I mean that seriously.. 

I think for the most part.. just being Honest.. living with integrity would cover so many dysfunctional ills.. but yet it still won't help you be compatible with someone who is just too far in left field over us...... When it comes to our individual passions, life goals, our beliefs... are we more Traditionally minded...or Modern.. want Family.. or more to just live for the 2 of you...more a life of ongoing adventure....busy with careers, etc..



> *Murduk said* :* Any attempts to give lists of how "a real man" treats a woman...
> 
> Just sad. Because a real man defines himself independently of such things.*





> *Personal said*: *All adult males are real men*.


 Yes .. they have a penis. so that makes them a MAN.. but the spirit of this thread is really about being a GOOD MAN...frankly THAT is a much better term... but even using the word GOOD seems to irritate others here.. I have been slapped on the wrist for using the term BAD in relation to what I call "BAD BOYS"... ya know what I say.. WHATEVER.. I have a mental list of GOOD MEN .. and what I look upon as BAD MEN.. 

WE all have that in our heads.. if not, we'd not find anything special about who we are with or could go on about why we love them .. so IF You can do this.. you have a mental list too..


----------



## Holland

Personal said:


> All adult males are real men.


Yes they are. 

The deciding factor for me to want them in my life is if they are good men. I only have time for good people.


----------



## NotEasy

marduk said:


> Being a real man has nothing to do with women, animals, or anything else.
> 
> Particularly that patently ludicrous yellow image.
> 
> All these things are side effects of being a real man. As I define it.
> 
> A real man stuck on a desert island with no women in sight is still a real man.
> 
> Any attempts to give lists of how "a real man" treats a woman...
> 
> Just sad. Because a real man defines himself independently of such things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, a real man can exist apart from a woman. He is a real man because of his character. His behaviour toward her comes from his character, and hers. 
But measuring character is hard. Measuring or observing behaviour is easier.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NotEasy said:


> Yes, a real man can exist apart from a woman. He is a real man because of his character. His behaviour toward her comes from his character, and hers.
> But measuring character is hard. Measuring or observing behaviour is easier.


I don't think measuring character is all that difficult .... it just takes TIME, consistent experiences, some history to bring it to light... 

True, people can be FAKE in front of others, 1st impressions can be deceiving, not everything we see on Facebook is a good representation either ....though if one curses every sentence or 2, posts pictures of holding a turd over the toilet , acting like a bad a** gangster.. they sure help us with our stereotyping....(seen this on a 18 yr olds page a couple weeks ago, this menace beat up a 13 yr old we know, gave him a concussion, of course that kid isn't no saint either).... but Yeah.. how some even manage to have any friends ....well.. just shows how dysfunctional society really is.. 

People like that make our judgments pretty easy...but then we have our master manipulators who ride under the radar -where others THINK they are ALL THAT...though anyone who lives with them or works with them.....they KNOW....(well generally).. I guess some serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer working in the chocolate factory sure missed the signs.. though he was WEIRD, something was very off...


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> A real man stuck on a desert island with no women in sight is still a real man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A. Men.


----------



## NotEasy

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't think measuring character is all that difficult .... it just takes TIME, consistent experiences, some history to bring it to light...


Time + consistent experience + history = harder
Behaviour (especially like below) can be judged quicker and easier.


SimplyAmorous said:


> True, people can be FAKE in front of others, 1st impressions can be deceiving, not everything we see on Facebook is a good representation either ....though if one curses every sentence or 2, posts pictures of holding a turd over the toilet , acting like a bad a** gangster.. they sure help us with our stereotyping....(seen this on a 18 yr olds page a couple weeks ago, this menace beat up a 13 yr old we know, gave him a concussion, of course that kid isn't no saint either).... but Yeah.. how some even manage to have any friends ....well.. just shows how dysfunctional society really is..


These are all behaviours. Granted the character under them is obvious, but these are actions or behaviours you are describing. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> People like that make our judgments pretty easy...but then we have our master manipulators who ride under the radar -where others THINK they are ALL THAT...though anyone who lives with them or works with them.....they KNOW....(well generally).. I guess some serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer working in the chocolate factory sure missed the signs.. though he was WEIRD, something was very off...


To really see the character behind the mask can be very hard. That is what I was getting at. And not just serial killer try to mask their character. 
To really see character I think you need to see the belief and emotions underneath. They rarely show through our masks.
One danger of marriage is our spouse gets to see us without our masks.


SimplyAmorous said:


>


A ninety something year old man at our church told me he read a chapter or two of Proverbs or Psalms every day. He had been doing that since childhood. Every day he still found something new that spoke to his character. He casually mentioned this, with no pride or boasting. He almost seemed embarrassed that even after 80 years he still had faults. Yes he was describing his behaviour, but his character came through very clearly.
He was what I call a real man, with the sort of character I aspire to. 
Seeing character like this is hard. Few have it. It doesn't reveal itself often. It doesn't show off.


----------



## Satya

"Real man" is perhaps not the best phrase to use given the ambiguity. Perhaps "man of integrity" or similar is more apt (good man gets thrown out a lot, and I subscribe to SA's definition although I think the term good can also be somewhat ambiguous). 

I mainly look for personal development in men, if they are eager to learn and improve themselves, not for any reason other reason than their own well-being. I know such a man will lead by example, and like water, I am likely to take the shape of whatever standard he sets. 

I am naturally independent and capable of reaching my own goals, but I would be lying if I said that an inspiring leader does not spark me to be more than what I would likely strive for on my own.


----------



## NotEasy

Personal said:


> All adult males are real men.


No, many males are simply boys who grew older and got more expensive toys.
Unless you are saying 'adult' is when males stop being boys and become real men.


----------



## TheColonel

Well as a 35 year old who is completely inexperienced with women I'm not going to lie that I sometimes feel like I'm not a "real" man. I'm working on it though it is a struggle at times.


----------



## jld

TheColonel said:


> Well as a 35 year old who is completely inexperienced with women I'm not going to lie that I sometimes feel like I'm not a "real" man. I'm working on it though it is a struggle at times.


It really does not have anything to do with _that._


----------



## EllisRedding

TheColonel said:


> Well as a 35 year old who is completely inexperienced with women I'm not going to lie that I sometimes feel like I'm not a "real" man. I'm working on it though it is a struggle at times.


Could you explain more exactly what qualities do you feel you are lacking at time that makes you not feel like a real man? Your experience with women should have no bearing on this.


----------



## ocotillo

EllisRedding,



EllisRedding said:


> My favorite quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A real man is an experienced man; he’s been through enough failed relationships and met enough wrong women that when he meets the right woman, he knows what he’s found.
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess I am not a real man.....
Click to expand...


I hope you realize that the entire concept is an informal fallacy known as, "No True Scotsman." 

Statements like:

Real women know their place

Real musicians don't need sheet music

Real Christians don't accept evolutionary theory 

..are all _ad hoc_ definitions concocted to suit the agenda of the speaker.

Whether they realize it or not, people throwing the term, "Real men" around are making a statement about their ability to string thoughts together in a coherent fashion.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NotEasy said:


> Time + consistent experience + history = harder
> Behaviour (especially like below) can be judged quicker and easier.
> 
> These are all behaviours. Granted the character under them is obvious, but these are actions or behaviours you are describing. To really see the character behind the mask can be very hard. That is what I was getting at. And not just serial killer try to mask their character.
> *To really see character I think you need to see the belief and emotions underneath*. They rarely show through our masks.


I spoke about those masks in my  Transparency thread ..











> *One danger of marriage is our spouse gets to see us without our masks.*


 if they don't see this LONG BEFORE walking down the aisle ...there is going to be some heartache ahead!!!



> *A ninety something year old man at our church told me he read a chapter or two of Proverbs or Psalms every day. He had been doing that since childhood. Every day he still found something new that spoke to his character. He casually mentioned this, with no pride or boasting. He almost seemed embarrassed that even after 80 years he still had faults. Yes he was describing his behaviour, but his character came through very clearly.
> He was what I call a real man, with the sort of character I aspire to.
> Seeing character like this is hard. Few have it. It doesn't reveal itself often. It doesn't show off*.










Isn't this so true.. it's those who can look at themselves.. with a couple fingers pointing back...it keeps you humble.. for sure..

I think we should all be able to say *>> *







when it calls for it...

I know I have been there [email protected]#$

Being able to admit one's faults, know the demons we may struggle with ....it's all about being self aware... It's very healthy.. like your Proverb reading 90 yr old friend here. 

I, too, have always loved Proverbs...sometimes I wonder if it may offend.... but the ones I use are just plain common sense really.. these nuggets of truth are found in many places...it's just integrity.. 

I look at my husband and feel he has near exemplary character...he may not be a successful Alpha male who had lots of women (which is what the world looks at)...but he is one of the humblest men I've ever known.. He couldn't brag on himself to save his life (Good thing he has me!)...I so appreciate these qualities in him... I looked at him one day , yrs ago now....... this is after being together like 30 some yrs... I said "I can't think of a time you EVER LET ME DOWN...."..... he looks back at me & within seconds says 
"Yes I did.. that time I was late picking up after school and you were grounded "... 

I was blown away by that.. how in the world did he come up with that SO FAST.. I didn't even remember it.. but he carried it .. I never felt that was his fault ! 

If he even says a cross word to me in haste.. he will come to me later & apologize telling me I didn't deserve that.. I have laughed at him at times ... as these things were so minor.. like putting together a desk for our son, a part broke... (he starts swearing about China)...& he unleashed some attitude on me when I asked what can I do...heck I'd be steamed too.. I didnt take it personally.. 

He is a man who has to make it RIGHT.. that's just how he lives.. no matter if it's family, co-workers..... though if you push him far enough, he'll tell you what he thinks. It doesn't mean he likes everyone ...but he'll treat them fairly none the less..... He feels as you do here.. it's more few & far between ...


----------



## Forest

He doesn't listen to people on TAM.


----------



## jld

Forest said:


> He doesn't listen to people on TAM.


----------



## NotEasy

Forest said:


> He doesn't listen to people on TAM.


He listens to people on TAM, but he doesn't blindly copy anyone. He has his own standards, which he is willing to choose even against the rest of TAM.


----------



## NotEasy

Satya said:


> "Real man" is perhaps not the best phrase to use given the ambiguity. Perhaps "man of integrity" or similar is more apt (good man gets thrown out a lot, and I subscribe to SA's definition although I think the term good can also be somewhat ambiguous).


"Man of integrity" is a great phrase, it describes what I am after. It passed the google test, with a picture of Spock, A Man of Integrity by HapticMimesis on DeviantArt .
"Real man" is mainly used as it is a common term. but that also means it has been mis-used.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Yes.."a man of Integrity" ...much better description.. even if one doesn't always agree with such a person or would choose their lifestyle.. generally the majority will still RESPECT those who live with integrity...


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> ....


I really this, SA. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## NotEasy

"Man of integrity" is a great phrase. And Spock is a model of integrity. But thinking about it, I wonder is Spock a "real man". Perhaps he would fall short in emotional intelligence, which I see as a vital ingredient. 

I am no expert on Star Trek, so can others comment on is Spock a good role model for what we are talking about.


----------



## TheColonel

EllisRedding said:


> Could you explain more exactly what qualities do you feel you are lacking at time that makes you not feel like a real man? Your experience with women should have no bearing on this.


Just the fact that I've never groped, kissed, or made love to a woman before. It's not all the time though occasionally if I see a beautiful woman with her boyfriend it does sometimes make me sad. I'm working on it though! Hopefully I can change this fact about myself soon. :smile2:


----------



## NotEasy

marduk said:


> Being a real man has nothing to do with women, animals, or anything else.
> ...
> Any attempts to give lists of how "a real man" treats a woman...
> 
> Just sad. Because a real man defines himself independently of such things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





NotEasy said:


> Yes, a real man can exist apart from a woman. He is a real man because of his character. His behaviour toward her comes from his character, and hers.
> ...


Another day lost contemplating this and I am going to disagree with myself again. Or at least add a nuance that changes it. Or admit that I can't clarify my ideas. 

Sorry this post is so scattered. Lack of clarity about defining 'real men' is depressing.

The contemplation was about when I was courting my wife. She was a near impossible catch for me, I had the wrong 'race', language, culture, bank balance, age, no common history, etc and she wasn't interested in me. Then I realised, with great clarity, that I needed to catch her or die trying. Loosing her would be a pain, but I would survive. I could exist without her. But not trying, or only making a half hearted attempt, would cripple me. Without 100% effort in this battle I would never be a real man. Of course, at the time, I did not word it in terms of 'real man'.

Also at the time I considered I had the theoretical option to just walk away. Indeed the friend that introduced us had other ladies already lined up. I did not think love overwhelmed me or took my brain away. It just changed my direction.

I think that clear perception of their emotions is a defining characteristic of real men, or men of integrity. Or another way of putting this might be that real men can be redirected by love and they will follow love ruthlessly. 

This self perception is also what I think Spock does not have, but others who know Star Trek better might correct me.

I think a real man can accurately percieve his emotions and can ride them, but only is the same way a surfer can ride a surfboard on a wave. The wave itself cannot be controlled only riden. So a real man is not independent of love, or immune from it. And can be rapidly and radically changed by love and other emotions.

A real man can exist independent of any woman, until he falls in love. Even then you could say his love for her is within him, so he is still independent. His love for her directs how he acts toward her. But if he ignores his love for her he will rip himself apart.

Someone here had a signature something like "Love is chemicals disguised as emotions", or similar. Wish I could remember it all. But real men are not robots, they are not Spock. Real men exist in human bodies. Our bodies have 'weaknesses', such as emotions. Real men will be true to their emotions. They can happily go on their way growing and progressing as 'real men', then get blind sided by emotions.

And I also think real men must be able to accurately perceive emotions in others, but that is another post.

I had a friend who wanted as many girls as he could, he wanted open long term relationships. He went through various ONS until finally he got a girl who wanted more. He wanted her and his ONSs. She put up with this for a while, then left him, met and married someone else. My friend was upset that she would no longer date him, as he still loved her. And he thought his other ONSs were fine too because he wanted them before he met her. He seemed unable to see any emotions that got in the way of his open LTR ideas.


----------



## Marduk

NotEasy said:


> Another day lost contemplating this and I am going to disagree with myself again. Or at least add a nuance that changes it. Or admit that I can't clarify my ideas.
> 
> Sorry this post is so scattered. Lack of clarity about defining 'real men' is depressing.
> 
> The contemplation was about when I was courting my wife. She was a near impossible catch for me, I had the wrong 'race', language, culture, bank balance, age, no common history, etc and she wasn't interested in me. Then I realised, with great clarity, that I needed to catch her or die trying. Loosing her would be a pain, but I would survive. I could exist without her. But not trying, or only making a half hearted attempt, would cripple me. Without 100% effort in this battle I would never be a real man. Of course, at the time, I did not word it in terms of 'real man'.
> 
> Also at the time I considered I had the theoretical option to just walk away. Indeed the friend that introduced us had other ladies already lined up. I did not think love overwhelmed me or took my brain away. It just changed my direction.
> 
> I think that clear perception of their emotions is a defining characteristic of real men, or men of integrity. Or another way of putting this might be that real men can be redirected by love and they will follow love ruthlessly.
> 
> This self perception is also what I think Spock does not have, but others who know Star Trek better might correct me.
> 
> I think a real man can accurately percieve his emotions and can ride them, but only is the same way a surfer can ride a surfboard on a wave. The wave itself cannot be controlled only riden. So a real man is not independent of love, or immune from it. And can be rapidly and radically changed by love and other emotions.
> 
> A real man can exist independent of any woman, until he falls in love. Even then you could say his love for her is within him, so he is still independent. His love for her directs how he acts toward her. But if he ignores his love for her he will rip himself apart.
> 
> Someone here had a signature something like "Love is chemicals disguised as emotions", or similar. Wish I could remember it all. But real men are not robots, they are not Spock. Real men exist in human bodies. Our bodies have 'weaknesses', such as emotions. Real men will be true to their emotions. They can happily go on their way growing and progressing as 'real men', then get blind sided by emotions.
> 
> And I also think real men must be able to accurately perceive emotions in others, but that is another post.
> 
> I had a friend who wanted as many girls as he could, he wanted open long term relationships. He went through various ONS until finally he got a girl who wanted more. He wanted her and his ONSs. She put up with this for a while, then left him, met and married someone else. My friend was upset that she would no longer date him, as he still loved her. And he thought his other ONSs were fine too because he wanted them before he met her. He seemed unable to see any emotions that got in the way of his open LTR ideas.


While insightful, I think these are still symptoms, not root causes.

These things show up in certain patterns at times, which is why I think we see all kinds of posts from women about how 'real men' show up.

But how they show up is not why they show up this way.

They show up this way because of who they are, not what they do.

And who they are is the key. Not chasing some behavioural notion of who we're expected to be.

It's internal. So you can't see it. Just like no man can take another's honour, he can only take it or give it to himself.

It has nothing to do with anybody else.


----------



## MountainRunner

TheColonel said:


> *Just the fact that I've never groped, kissed, or made love to a woman before.* It's not all the time though occasionally if I see a beautiful woman with her boyfriend it does sometimes make me sad.* I'm working on it though! Hopefully I can change this fact about myself soon*. :smile2:


Of course you will my friend. I know all about low self-esteem and you can overcome that fairly easily. Just a little bit of advice, when it happens (and it will)...don't "grope". Groping is a bit akin to "pawing" if'n ya get my meaning. I use the terms "caressing" for the nicey nicey romantic "stuff", but when she wants it "rough", I don't "grope" her...I "handle" her (my term and it describes how I take her and have my way with her...dominant, but not too harsh...ya know?).

And be kind to her when you get there, ok? Just sayin.


----------



## NotEasy

marduk said:


> While insightful, I think these are still symptoms, not root causes.
> 
> These things show up in certain patterns at times, which is why I think we see all kinds of posts from women about how 'real men' show up.
> 
> But how they show up is not why they show up this way.
> 
> They show up this way because of who they are, not what they do.
> 
> And who they are is the key. Not chasing some behavioural notion of who we're expected to be.
> 
> It's internal. So you can't see it. Just like no man can take another's honour, he can only take it or give it to himself.
> 
> It has nothing to do with anybody else.


I don't think we are disagreeing, rather I have not explained myself clearly, as I am still grappling with how to understand and word it all.

Let me divide this into two parts, perception and response.
*
Perception* is seeing the emotional state, valuing it and not ignoring it. This is the root cause. It also requires that one can be separate from the emotion, or can be self aware.

Some men might not even have the emotional state itself, so can't percieve them. I think John117 might class them as "not normal" people. And this is also part of my uncertainty, perhaps Aussie males are "not normal" males. 

We had an advertising icon called Chesty Bond, especially as plastic upper body store dummies to advertise mens singlets. He became the ideal Aussie male body shape. Many jokingly said he also typified Aussie male emotional makeup, i.e. we have as much emotional content as a hollow store dummy. The cynic within me thinks Aussie men have roughly similar emotional content with men from other countries. Not saying that normal men are completely hollow shells emotionally. Just that normal men everywhere typically have less perception of their emotions than normal women. 
*
So what I am saying is a "real man" or "man of integrity" needs to percieve his emotions better than other men. 
*
This perception needs to be conscious, i.e. real men need to have the possibility of seeing the emotion and deciding to act on it or not act on it. Children often react based on emotion. They get swept up in the emotion and go out of control. The seem unable to see their emotion as a separate thing. Cries of "I am ..." are vastly different to "I feel ...". Some non-real men do the same.

Humans are a bag of hormones and emotions. No human gets away from this reality. Real men recognise their emotions and can choose how they respond. 

And I see emotions as the root cause, I don't see chemicals or something else is the root cause of emotions. But even if you say chemicals underlie emotions, the perception of emotions remain a vital distinction. 


So, secondly comes *response*, which I think is what you called a symptom or behaviour. I mostly talked about this in my last post, because it is the easiest to see and talk about. But I am less interested in this response than perception.

Largely I see the response as just the honest answer to the percieved emotion. And honesty should already be part of any definition of a real man or man of integrity.

In the case of me courting my wife, I always thought I had the choice of how our responded. I just thought any response other than 100% pursuit would leave a deep scar of "what if". But I always thought I had other options. I never felt forced into any response. So response and perception must be separate.


Alot of this is just how you look at it. I think my friend was able to see his emotions, as he named them. But he overrode them with his initial desires, lots of ONSs.

In one sense what I am saying is a real man can amend his world view based on his emotions. 


Another point is I do NOT want to say an experience like this is essential step before becoming a real man. Both because a real man can still be a real man without a mate. And because proving any perception of emotion seems impossible. I am only trying to clarify a hopefully useful part of some larger definition. I say this experience is a characteristic difference which all real men must be capable of and which many real man experience.

And the emotion of love for a woman is not the only emotional experience I am talking about. I saw similar perception of emotions with farmers and their children talking about their land and farms. 

Also love itself is not the only emotion concerned. Farmers here are sometimes forced to kill drought weakened stock. They clearly percieve the emotion, it is nearly crippling them. In this sad case they do not have any good response.


Another area I am still pondering is metrosexuals/wimps/modern men. I am NOT saying a real man is governed by his emotions.


----------

