# Child Support and a Lazy Ex



## Dread Pirate Roberts

Hi everyone,

I moved out almost exactly a year ago, and the divorce was final on Jan 31st of this year. Nevada has a formula for CS, with something called a presumptive maximum per income band, which is basically a cap. It's also calculated as a difference between the incomes, and as the ex didn't work, I pay 100%. This comes out to right around $1,500/month for my 2 teenage kids. This is in addition to spousal support that she also receives. No car payment, just the rent/utilities/etc.

Anyway, one of my girls is always asking for me to buy things - regular day to day stuff, like a lunch after school, a new binder for school or most recently a haircut. I explain to her that I'm already sending money to her mother for just those kinds of things. I don't know if her mom is putting her up to it, but my daughter says that her mom doesn't have any money to pay for these things. And that's the kicker. It's been a year, and the ex still won't get a job. It's getting really frustrating. Part of me wants to ask them why their mom gets this free pass on providing absolutely nothing in financial support - these are high school kids, mind you, not little kids that you'd need to stay home to take care of. So, how have any of you out there in similar situations handled this? At first, I would say OK and do it, but for the last several months I've just been telling her no. The ex is pretty much impossible to talk to - hyper emotional, very narcissistic, won't take responsibility for anything, etc.

Thanks


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## lifeistooshort

I would certainly start by showing your kids exactly what you make and what you pay their mother every month because she doesn't work. Like you said they're not little kids and it would be a good lesson in finance for them. Tell them you simply don't have money to pay your bills, support all of them, and still buy them stuff. Tell them you know it stinks and apologize for it but that's life. Soon they'll be adults and cs will end, and your ex will be in for a shock. It's a shocker for people that build their lives around cs when it end; my hb's ex whined about how she didn't know how she was going to manage when their daughter became am an adult and he paid voluntarily for an extra year, but eventually she figured it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

Is there an end date to the spousal support? 

When child support is calculated, the formula assumes that each of you will be spending money on your child when the child is with you.


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

lifeistooshort said:


> I would certainly start by showing your kids exactly what you make and what you pay their mother every month because she doesn't work. Like you said they're not little kids and it would be a good lesson in finance for them. Tell them you simply don't have money to pay your bills, support all of them, and still buy them stuff. Tell them you know it stinks and apologize for it but that's life. Soon they'll be adults and cs will end, and your ex will be in for a shock. It's a shocker for people that build their lives around cs when it end; my hb's ex whined about how she didn't know how she was going to manage when their daughter became am an adult and he paid voluntarily for an extra year, but eventually she figured it out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have done that - they know exactly how much money I pay every month, and what my expenses are. It's just a weird feeling to me - they really shouldn't be involved in this, ya know..


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

EleGirl said:


> Is there an end date to the spousal support?
> 
> When child support is calculated, the formula assumes that each of you will be spending money on your child when the child is with you.


We were married for 14 years, so after the negotiations the spousal ended up at 5 years.

I understand that - when they are with me, I'll take them shopping for clothes - they're teenage girls, after all  - go the movies, hiking, etc. I provide all of their essentials here - toothbrush, toothpaste, hair/face/makeup/shampoo/conditioner/hair dryer so they don't have to tote it back and forth. I make dinner, then send the leftovers home with them.


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## EleGirl

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> We were married for 14 years, so after the negotiations the spousal ended up at 5 years.
> 
> I understand that - when they are with me, I'll take them shopping for clothes - they're teenage girls, after all  - go the movies, hiking, etc. I provide all of their essentials here - toothbrush, toothpaste, hair/face/makeup stuff so they don't have to tote it back and forth. I make dinner, and send the leftovers home with them.


I completely understand your frustration. But sadly it is what it is.

You seem to have a good handle on the fact that the most important thing is that your daughters know that their daddy loves them can will care for them. They know what their mother is doing. In time they will realize even more about it.


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## EleGirl

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> I have done that - they know exactly how much money I pay every month, and what my expenses are. It's just a weird feeling to me - they really shouldn't be involved in this, ya know..


I think that showing your children the basics of your income and what you pay in child support and spousal support is ok.

Beyond that they need to be kept out of this.

My ex made sure that our son (DS) knew that he paid child support. But of course he did not tell the entire story.

My ex paid about half as much as his would have to pay had I pursued it more in court. His income is in the area of 500K. My income is about 1/4 of that. IT's not like my ex was being taken to the cleaners.

But every month he sent me a bill itemizing every penny he spent on DS and deducted it from the child support. He even deducted the cost of the stamp on the envelope for mailing the bill and child support check.

I never showed any of this nonsense to DS. But apparently his father made sure that DS knew about this huge 'injustice'. 

When DS was a teen, he asked my why his father resented him. When I asked why. His response was that his father was so angry over any money he spend on DS. 

I just told DS that his father was angry at me. It had nothing to do with him. 

On a good note about his father, once DS started college, he has paid the tuition, books and some spending money with to complaint. I've supported DS otherwise for school. So I guess my ex has finally given up on his anger.


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## lifeistooshort

EleGirl said:


> I think that showing your children the basics of your income and what you pay in child support and spousal support is ok.
> 
> Beyond that they need to be kept out of this.
> 
> My ex made sure that our son (DS) knew that he paid child support. But of course he did not tell the entire story.
> 
> My ex paid about half as much as his would have to pay had I pursued it more in court. His income is in the area of 500K. My income is about 1/4 of that. IT's not like my ex was being taken to the cleaners.
> 
> But every month he sent me a bill itemizing every penny he spent on DS and deducted it from the child support. He even deducted the cost of the stamp on the envelope for mailing the bill and child support check.
> 
> I never showed any of this nonsense to DS. But apparently his father made sure that DS knew about this huge 'injustice'.
> 
> When DS was a teen, he asked my why his father resented him. When I asked why. His response was that his father was so angry over any money he spend on DS.
> 
> I just told DS that his father was angry at me. It had nothing to do with him.
> 
> On a good note about his father, once DS started college, he has paid the tuition, books and some spending money with to complaint. I've supported DS otherwise for school. So I guess my ex has finally given up on his anger.


Ha ha, mine was somewhat like that. He thought because I wanted the divorce he shouldn't have to pay cs, and in the early days tried to get me to grocery shop for them before they went to his house. He actually thought he shouldn't have to pay for them to eat while they were there.

He's a little better now in that he buys groceries, but he doesn't buy them so much as a sock. His contribution is cs, period, even though I let him pay less than he's ordered to and I haven't asked for anything else, including half of medical/dental, which he's supposed to pay. And I expect him to contribute nothing to their college expenses because he thinks cs should cover that too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear

Talk to a lawyer?

C


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## Pluto2

It is what it is.
You really can't force your ex to itemize expenses for the kids, unless there is clear evidence of neglect, which doesn't appear here from what you are saying.
Imagine what the ex's household will be like when the spousal support ends. Prepare yourself, because you will be a real demon in her eyes then.


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## EnjoliWoman

Could you obtain custody? Would you want to? Would it be better for the girls? It's great you can afford all of that plus stuff for them anyway.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum - when kiddo wanted a toy, ex told her that he gave me money every month that I was supposed to spend on her. 

I pointed out to her that her Dad and I both paid half of what it takes to take care of her, but since I paid the bills, he gave his half to me. And since I bought all of her clothing and school stuff it was pretty obvious to her. I also pointed out it was for her bedroom, power, water, TV - ALL of the things she used that cost money. I wasn't the one watching Disney channel or who just got a new canopy bed, nightstand, dresser and desk.

So to the extreme, ex only supplies shampoo/conditioner and soap. She asked for another razor to keep at Dad's - I bought it. Asked for extra deodorant to keep at Dad's - I bought it. And so on.

Recently he complained that, based on what he contributed constituting 56% of her card, that she should benefit to the tune of $1300 per month. I did not justify this with an answer but I did the math. I wouldn't have purchased a home with a yard and a pool, or the extra bedroom had it not been for her so I calculated the sq ft that was just hers, the square ft that was shared (omitted by area) the figured out the house payment portion, her share of food, power, gas, TV, internet... along with what I spent on clothing, school supplies and entertainment - not including the yard/pool upkeep I was already over that figure. If he had to take care of her that would be quite a reality check for him. Girls aren't cheap. (as OP knows!)


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## Bluebirdie

Ok, you already explained to the girls and I understand you that they dont have to be in the middle, they get it and will get it more.

Just think that everything has an end, cs will end (you dont seem as if you will abandon them financially but will be more legally free) and spouse support will end too... so it is not eternal, it is momentary. 

My kids are already 22 and 24 but their dad is there always for things they may not ask but he wants to give to them, I appreciate it. My spousal support will end if I get remarried, which I dont know if I will do again. But still knowing this, I know H is not eternal and if something happens to him I will be *&*(%(^% for a while financially... so that is why I need to get a job. 

Unfortunately not all women think ahead and are used to only put their hand to get and get. You seem to be a good person and dad.


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

EnjoliWoman said:


> Could you obtain custody? Would you want to? Would it be better for the girls? It's great you can afford all of that plus stuff for them anyway.


The divorce has only been final since January, and my understanding is that it's really hard to get a custody change in the first year. We talked quite a bit about this - the kids and I - and the mediator and attorneys both said that since they were in high school, the courts give a lot of leeway to them to decide where to live, and they said they wanted to stay with mom.

I would like to have custody, and I do think they would be better off, but as the theme of this post seems to be, "It is what it is". I just let them know that I love them, and that they are welcome anytime, regardless of the visitation plan.

It's just baffling that someone that claims to be 100% about her children will do nothing to help support them. Well, not baffling, because that's just how she is and I know that, but still.


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## Hope1964

What does your lawyer say about this? Would you be able to submit receipts and then deduct what you spent directly from the amount you pay to your ex?


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

Pluto2 said:


> Imagine what the ex's household will be like when the spousal support ends. Prepare yourself, because you will be a real demon in her eyes then.


Ha ha! Already there Pluto. She was the one with the multiple online boyfriends and signing up on dating sites as Separated, but I screwed her over by leaving her. Same stuff you see over in CWI all the time. 



Hope1964 said:


> What does your lawyer say about this? Would you be able to submit receipts and then deduct what you spent directly from the amount you pay to your ex?


Haven't asked, and I'm not going to. It's not worth the hassle, and the less I have to deal with her the better, honestly. I pay my CS, then spend on them as I can/want. And that's fine with me. I guess my frustration is that I think she's putting them up to it. She's impossible to talk to - classic victim mentality, nothing is her fault, hair trigger temper, etc. And she would deny it anyway. Just wondering how other people have handled things. I'll just keep on doing what I'm doing now - just explain the situation to my daughters when/if it comes up - and enjoy my time with them.


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## EnjoliWoman

I hear ya. Today kiddo was asking for a fresh ziplok bag to put her facial cleanser in to take to her Dad's - it had leaked. I gave her one and told her to just leave that one at her Dad's and I'd get a new one at the store for our house. 

Regardless of the reason - whether she won't ask him or she has and he directs her to ask me - it really doesn't matter. I don't want to put her in that position and I don't want to deal with him so I'll just try to make it easy on her.


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## daddymikey1975

*Re: Re: Child Support and a Lazy Ex*



Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> Ha ha! Already there Pluto. She was the one with the multiple online boyfriends and signing up on dating sites as Separated, but I screwed her over by leaving her. Same stuff you see over in CWI all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't asked, and I'm not going to. It's not worth the hassle, and the less I have to deal with her the better, honestly. I pay my CS, then spend on them as I can/want. And that's fine with me. I guess my frustration is that I think she's putting them up to it. She's impossible to talk to - classic victim mentality, nothing is her fault, hair trigger temper, etc. And she would deny it anyway. Just wondering how other people have handled things. I'll just keep on doing what I'm doing now - just explain the situation to my daughters when/if it comes up - and enjoy my time with them.


Not sure how old your children are, but would they be able to get part time Jobs or babysit to help them earn some spending money for things they want? 

My daughter (now 18) works part time and starts college this fall but my 11yr old wants to start mowing lawns to earn some cash and I'm all for it.


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## jb02157

lifeistooshort said:


> I would certainly start by showing your kids exactly what you make and what you pay their mother every month because she doesn't work. Like you said they're not little kids and it would be a good lesson in finance for them. Tell them you simply don't have money to pay your bills, support all of them, and still buy them stuff. Tell them you know it stinks and apologize for it but that's life. Soon they'll be adults and cs will end, and your ex will be in for a shock. It's a shocker for people that build their lives around cs when it end; my hb's ex whined about how she didn't know how she was going to manage when their daughter became am an adult and he paid voluntarily for an extra year, but eventually she figured it out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is an excellent post! Together with the original post, it shows that, yes, women do get more than just a few hundred dollars in CS and some do not take care of their children with the money. In almost every case it's thousands of dollars every month. This very thing has been the biggest reason I have decided not to divorce. It's sad, all this money father's are pouring into their ex's pockets and still make their children suffer because they spend the money foolishly or just won't get jobs. In this situation it should be brought to children's attention that their mother IS getting a substancial amount from dad and he is not holding back from them.


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## EnjoliWoman

Hm. I disagree a bit. There's a careful balance to disclosing support.

When ex did that I carefully explained that she uses water, power, gas, internet, toiletries, food, schools supplies, medical and dental bills, insurance and activities to pay for and Dad just gives me his share of those expenses for her and I pay the other part for her. Of course I do actually buy all of that stuff with our combined funds. He only pays for entertainment/travel/meals he enjoys with her.

Granted, I work full time as well so I definitely contribute to her 'upkeep'. I don't see why a mother, of school aged kids especially, can't work.


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

EnjoliWoman said:


> Hm. I disagree a bit. There's a careful balance to disclosing support.
> 
> When ex did that I carefully explained that she uses water, power, gas, internet, toiletries, food, schools supplies, medical and dental bills, insurance and activities to pay for and Dad just gives me his share of those expenses for her and I pay the other part for her. Of course I do actually buy all of that stuff with our combined funds. He only pays for entertainment/travel/meals he enjoys with her.
> 
> Granted, I work full time as well so I definitely contribute to her 'upkeep'. I don't see why a mother, of school aged kids especially, can't work.


That's the exact conversation I had with them. The obvious exception is that she pays no share of the expenses, it's from me alone. She will ask me to split costs, and I'm thinking, split what? I'm providing the money for your half, then I pay the other half, so in reality I'm paying for 100% of this.

Here we go again. Just got a text from one of my daughters. They want to retake a math class this summer, "and you have to pay for it". I'm going to call the ex and send an email telling her this has to stop - any discussion of finances must be between me and her. But she will ignore it as always, and it's the kids that suffer, not her.


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

daddymikey1975 said:


> Not sure how old your children are, but would they be able to get part time Jobs or babysit to help them earn some spending money for things they want?
> 
> My daughter (now 18) works part time and starts college this fall but my 11yr old wants to start mowing lawns to earn some cash and I'm all for it.


They are 16 and 15. The 16 year old has been applying for jobs - Hot Dog on a Stick, that kind of thing, and the 15 year old does some babysitting.

It's sad but most likely true to think that my kids will get a job before their mother does...


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## Pluto2

jb02157 said:


> This is an excellent post! Together with the original post, it shows that, yes, women do get more than just a few hundred dollars in CS and some do not take care of their children with the money. In almost every case it's thousands of dollars every month. This very thing has been the biggest reason I have decided not to divorce. It's sad, all this money father's are pouring into their ex's pockets and still make their children suffer because they spend the money foolishly or just won't get jobs. In this situation it should be brought to children's attention that their mother IS getting a substancial amount from dad and he is not holding back from them.


Sorry, no. I see child support from a different point of view.
My child support for two kids is under a thousand (Not that I've actually received it, but I'm working on it). I have 100% custody and I work. So my ex doesn't pay for:
groceries
insurance co-pays and non-covered meds
dental (we have no dental insurance)
school fees (even in public school it is several hundred dollars per child/per year)
clothing
increase auto insurance (oldest DD is driving)
any entertainment

I manage to keep the bills paid (mostly) but there is nothing left at the end of the month. What is hard is not bad-mouthing the ex when my kids go without. I keep my mouth shut, and just say the vile things in the shower. 
So there really is another side to child support and maybe you should consider that, too.


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## EleGirl

jb02157 said:


> This is an excellent post! Together with the original post, it shows that, yes, women do get more than just a few hundred dollars in CS and some do not take care of their children with the money. In almost every case it's thousands of dollars every month. This very thing has been the biggest reason I have decided not to divorce. It's sad, all this money father's are pouring into their ex's pockets and still make their children suffer because they spend the money foolishly or just won't get jobs. In this situation it should be brought to children's attention that their mother IS getting a substancial amount from dad and he is not holding back from them.


Average income in the USA is about 52K. That's $4333 a month. Child support is usually about 10% for the first child. That's hardly thousands a month.


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## EnjoliWoman

Pluto2 said:


> Sorry, no. I see child support from a different point of view.
> My child support for two kids is under a thousand (Not that I've actually received it, but I'm working on it). I have 100% custody and I work. So my ex doesn't pay for:
> groceries
> insurance co-pays and non-covered meds
> dental (we have no dental insurance)
> school fees (even in public school it is several hundred dollars per child/per year)
> clothing
> increase auto insurance (oldest DD is driving)
> any entertainment
> 
> I manage to keep the bills paid (mostly) but there is nothing left at the end of the month. What is hard is not bad-mouthing the ex when my kids go without. I keep my mouth shut, and just say the vile things in the shower.
> So there really is another side to child support and maybe you should consider that, too.


As a mother with primary custody (and fortunate that he does pay support)

Child support IS supposed to cover:
groceries
insurance co-pays and non-covered meds
dental 
school fees 
clothing

The calculator takes into consideration that the child requires food, clothes, medical care as well as a roof over their head. Child support is for all basic needs - food, clothing, shelter.

I do get credit for insurance - I provide it and that is part of the calculation - he pays for his 'share' of the premiums my employer charges me. I do have dental insurance but regardless he is to pay his share of all of my out-of-pocket medical/dental/vision expenses. I pay the first $250 and any other expenses are split.

any entertainment: He pays for her entertainment when with him; I pay for her entertainment when she is with me. However, entertainment is OPTIONAL. It is not a must-have. Yes, kids want to hang at the mall, go to movies, etc. and it's nice that we can provide that stuff but it is not a necessity.

increase auto insurance (oldest DD is driving): Ditto. I'm glad I can probably afford this next year; I will have to get a new car for me as I'm giving her my old car. But again, this is optional. Kids don't HAVE to drive, a license is optional. My friend and her husband (still married) can't afford this and her kid will be 18 when she gets her license and will be on her own there. 

Perhaps a bit of Devil's Advocate but child support is for necessities. If the parents each pitch in to give those niceties, it's great. But if they can't, no one is guaranteed a car, or going to the movies, etc. That can be a hard lesson to learn. But life doesn't OWE us those things, so since they are optional, they aren't part of support.


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## Pluto2

Enjoli, sorry, but talk to me when your child is the only one in her group who can't go see the saturday matenee with her friends....
or when your 16 yr old gets a license-are you going to tell them glad you got that license and sorry-driving is a luxury so give that license to me.

I get those expenses are not covered in the child support calculations. But your comments came off as entitled


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## EnjoliWoman

I'm sorry if my post came off as entitled - particularly when I'm the person supporting the child and receiving the child support vs. paying for it. And he does question how much he pays and thinks it's too much and tells me what he thinks her standard of living should be for what he pays. He doesn't realize her standard of living surpasses the degree to which he feels she should benefit.

I have had to tell my child no. I know other people whose kids cannot get a license yet, who will not get a car, who cannot afford the year book or a school T-shirt. People who are married and have TWO incomes. And those things are extras. Prom dresses, name brand shoes, cell phones with data plans, driving privileges - all extras that we have become accustomed to thinking of as necessities.

I think it sucks when you have to say no because someone doesn't pay their share. I said I'm fortunate that my ex pays even if he's late. I've done Christmas on $100 and our only vacation was a camping trip because it only cost me gas. I've had to put milk on a credit card because I couldn't make it til payday.

My daughter knows she is fortunate to get my old car which will be 14 years old when she gets it. And what's funny is she said how lucky she felt she was getting it because some of her friends were getting real clunkers. She has no real idea that my car is older than those "clunkers" but that I've taken excellent care of it. She also knows along with the car comes an expectation of a job to help pay for stuff.

I'm really one of the last people to feel entitled. BUT I haven't given up on the "American Dream". I did not get a degree. Everything I have earned has been from hard work, excellent communication skills and work ethic. I don't believe in luck and I certainly don't feel entitled.

I admitted I'm playing Devil's Advocate. But can we really start dictating what is a 'necessity'? Can we start forcing parents to pay for private school, karate lessons or car insurance? I've seen (and heard on here) plenty of parents who are already living in the poor house just so they can pay child support so the kid can continue to live exactly the same as when parents were together. It's impossible. You simply can't operate two households on the same budget as one.


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## Pluto2

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm sorry if my post came off as entitled - particularly when I'm the person supporting the child and receiving the child support vs. paying for it. And he does question how much he pays and thinks it's too much and tells me what he thinks her standard of living should be for what he pays. He doesn't realize her standard of living surpasses the degree to which he feels she should benefit.
> 
> I have had to tell my child no. I know other people whose kids cannot get a license yet, who will not get a car, who cannot afford the year book or a school T-shirt. People who are married and have TWO incomes. And those things are extras. Prom dresses, name brand shoes, cell phones with data plans, driving privileges - all extras that we have become accustomed to thinking of as necessities.
> 
> I think it sucks when you have to say no because someone doesn't pay their share. I said I'm fortunate that my ex pays even if he's late. I've done Christmas on $100 and our only vacation was a camping trip because it only cost me gas. I've had to put milk on a credit card because I couldn't make it til payday.
> 
> My daughter knows she is fortunate to get my old car which will be 14 years old when she gets it. And what's funny is she said how lucky she felt she was getting it because some of her friends were getting real clunkers. She has no real idea that my car is older than those "clunkers" but that I've taken excellent care of it. She also knows along with the car comes an expectation of a job to help pay for stuff.
> 
> I'm really one of the last people to feel entitled. BUT I haven't given up on the "American Dream". I did not get a degree. Everything I have earned has been from hard work, excellent communication skills and work ethic. I don't believe in luck and I certainly don't feel entitled.
> 
> I admitted I'm playing Devil's Advocate. But can we really start dictating what is a 'necessity'? Can we start forcing parents to pay for private school, karate lessons or car insurance? I've seen (and heard on here) plenty of parents who are already living in the poor house just so they can pay child support so the kid can continue to live exactly the same as when parents were together. It's impossible. You simply can't operate two households on the same budget as one.


I know you are playing devil's advocate. 
I think your idea of child support is perhaps too narrow. Consider this:Child support payments are meant to cover a broad range of expenses that a child requires. It is not necessarily just for the bare necessities of food, shelter and clothing. Most child support guidelines include a provision for medical expenses, but only to the extent one parent pays the insurance premium. School fees, entertainment and the child's extracurricular activities are part of raising a child and are not strictly speaking necessities. And yes, many states do consider recreational activities of the child when determining child support, particularly if it was something the child did before the divorce. The goal is to ensure that the child's lifestyle does not change *drastically* from what it was when the child had both parents together. That doesn't mean it won't change at all.

Certainly, two households are more expensive than one. But maintaining the same basic day-to-day living expenses of a child is the goal to be met by child support payments. This seems to be what was frustrating the OP, whose ex received child support and spousal support.


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

Pluto2 said:


> I know you are playing devil's advocate.
> I think your idea of child support is perhaps too narrow. Consider this:Child support payments are meant to cover a broad range of expenses that a child requires. It is not necessarily just for the bare necessities of food, shelter and clothing. Most child support guidelines include a provision for medical expenses, but only to the extent one parent pays the insurance premium. School fees, entertainment and the child's extracurricular activities are part of raising a child and are not strictly speaking necessities. And yes, many states do consider recreational activities of the child when determining child support, particularly if it was something the child did before the divorce. The goal is to ensure that the child's lifestyle does not change *drastically* from what it was when the child had both parents together. That doesn't mean it won't change at all.
> 
> Certainly, two households are more expensive than one. But maintaining the same basic day-to-day living expenses of a child is the goal to be met by child support payments. This seems to be what was frustrating the OP, whose ex received child support and spousal support.


My frustration is that *helping* "maintain the same basic day-to-day living expenses of a child is the goal to be met by child support payments". Both parents are responsible for financially supporting their kids, and she's doing absolutely nothing, then sending them to me to ask for money to cover when she is short. And she isn't getting chump change. Between CS and SS, she receives over $37K/year.


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## jb02157

Pluto2 said:


> Sorry, no. I see child support from a different point of view.
> My child support for two kids is under a thousand (Not that I've actually received it, but I'm working on it). I have 100% custody and I work. So my ex doesn't pay for:
> groceries
> insurance co-pays and non-covered meds
> dental (we have no dental insurance)
> school fees (even in public school it is several hundred dollars per child/per year)
> clothing
> increase auto insurance (oldest DD is driving)
> any entertainment
> 
> I manage to keep the bills paid (mostly) but there is nothing left at the end of the month. What is hard is not bad-mouthing the ex when my kids go without. I keep my mouth shut, and just say the vile things in the shower.
> So there really is another side to child support and maybe you should consider that, too.


If I could get a situation where my child support would be under $1000/month I'd get divorced tomorrow. In my mind child support should NOT cover the items you mention. It's child SUPPORT and not meant to be a "be all end all to live off of so your Ex and quit work and live off of you". If you want to live a decent life you have to have motivation to get a job and make that happen, it shouldn't be someone else's responsibility to do that for you, especially since the decision has been made to live apart. I object to the paradigm that the divorced dad has to live life in a shabby apartment and continue to work his butt off the rest of his life for nothing while the wife doesn't work, has everything she wants and screws other men in the house and bed he paid for. That's just abusing the system.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> My frustration is that *helping* "maintain the same basic day-to-day living expenses of a child is the goal to be met by child support payments". Both parents are responsible for financially supporting their kids, and she's doing absolutely nothing, then sending them to me to ask for money to cover when she is short. And she isn't getting chump change. Between CS and SS, she receives over $37K/year.


No able bodied adult should be getting SS. Period. After a grace period to find acceptable work, you should have to do volunteer work for the government or enroll in job training of your choice.


----------



## SamuraiJack

EnjoliWoman said:


> No able bodied adult should be getting SS. Period. After a grace period to find acceptable work, you should have to do volunteer work for the government or enroll in job training of your choice.



I just found a kindred soul!!!!
:toast:

Well spoken. 
Im a moderate, but this is one of the things I truly believe. 
No such thing as a free ride...


----------



## jb02157

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> My frustration is that *helping* "maintain the same basic day-to-day living expenses of a child is the goal to be met by child support payments". Both parents are responsible for financially supporting their kids, and she's doing absolutely nothing, then sending them to me to ask for money to cover when she is short. And she isn't getting chump change. Between CS and SS, she receives over $37K/year.


Thank you Mr. Pirate Roberts. You ARE giving her about $3000/month which is about what they said I would have to pay if I got divorced. So yes, it is, literally thousands of dollar/month, like I said. And like you say here, my wife would be doing absolutely nothing for that. Child supoort is to meet the BASIC expenses of the CHILD, not the Ex wife.


----------



## EleGirl

jb02157 said:


> Thank you Mr. Pirate Roberts. You ARE giving her about $3000/month which is about what they said I would have to pay if I got divorced. So yes, it is, literally thousands of dollar/month, like I said. And like you say here, my wife would be doing absolutely nothing for that. Child supoort is to meet the BASIC expenses of the CHILD, not the Ex wife.


The OP pays about $3000 monthly in alimoney and child support. It's not all child support. You have no idea how much of that $3000 is child support.

Child support covers the children.

Alimoney is for the ex wife.

You claimed that child support is thousands in most cases. That is simply not true because most people do not earn enough for it to be thst high.

If you, personally would have to pay about $3000 a month in child support, then your income is around $120k annually. That I is more tthan 95% of the population earns. Therefore your childsupport will be higher than that of 95% of the population's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

Further, alimoney is tax deductible to the payer.

The payer of child support can take the children as detections with agreement from the payee. In most divorces this agreement is part of the divorce. In my divorce we agreed to swapping the child deduction every other year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dread Pirate Roberts

EleGirl said:


> Further, alimoney is tax deductible to the payer.
> 
> The payer of child support can take the children as detections with agreement from the payee. In most divorces this agreement is part of the divorce. In my divorce we agreed to swapping the child deduction every other year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right you are, EleGirl, and we each claim one of the girls for tax purposes. As she doesn't work, it would be wasted money for her to claim both, as her tax is about $100 with a single dependent, and would reduce to simply $0 with 2, as the alimony is unearned income.



EleGirl said:


> The OP pays about $3000 monthly in alimoney and child support. It's not all child support. You have no idea how much of that $3000 is child support.
> 
> Child support covers the children.
> 
> Alimoney is for the ex wife.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely correct. I did note the CS amount in my original post, slightly more than $1500/month, however.

As much as we can discuss the merits or lack thereof of alimony, the reality is that for a marriage of my length - 14 years - it was a foregone conclusion. I probably could've have fought for a smaller amount, but I wanted out. I'll get a part-time job doing something I want to do if I need to make up the difference at some point.

And, really, no amount of money was going to convince me to stick it out with a cheater, though I did think about just hanging on until the kids graduated high school. I'm still relatively young, CS will be 1/2 done in 2 years and 100% in 3, and alimony in 5. It's worth it to me.


----------



## EleGirl

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> Right you are, EleGirl, and we each claim one of the girls for tax purposes. As she doesn't work, it would be wasted money for her to claim both, as her tax is about $100 with a single dependent, and would reduce to simply $0 with 2, as the alimony is unearned income.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely correct. I did note the CS amount in my original post, slightly more than $1500/month, however.
> 
> As much as we can discuss the merits or lack thereof of alimony, the reality is that for a marriage of my length - 14 years - it was a foregone conclusion. I probably could've have fought for a smaller amount, but I wanted out. I'll get a part-time job doing something I want to do if I need to make up the difference at some point.
> 
> And, really, no amount of money was going to convince me to stick it out with a cheater, though I did think about just hanging on until the kids graduated high school. I'm still relatively young, CS will be 1/2 done in 2 years and 100% in 3, and alimony in 5. It's worth it to me.


Yea we all get hit one way or another in divorce. 

When I divorced my son's father was taken to the cleaners.

I had put him through medical school and residency. We divorced a few months after his residency. I got nothing for the over $100K I'd spend on that . On top of that, he had moved a lot (I mean a lot) of the money I made into his mother's name. He was paying the bills and I was not checking.. stupid me.

When we divorced I could not get alimony even though at that time he was earning over $200K. In New Mexico there is no alimony until about 20 years of marriage. Plus I have always had a good job. I did get child support (our son was 7). But got off light on that too.

Like you.. it was worth it to get away from a lying, Cheating, abusive spouse.

I figure that some day he'll leave what would have been alimony (or reimbursement for his education) to our son. I'm ok with that.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I once read that the biggest regrets of divorced people are:
1. they didn't leave sooner; and,
2. they wanted out so badly they settled for a less than stellar financial settlement (which I assume includes alimony but may not).

I always advise people who are divorcing to go ahead and rule with your head - it's not like you NEED the divorce as not many are rushing into another marriage. It's just paper, so tough it out and hold out for the settlement you want.

Had I left when I first explored my options, I would have been much better off financially.


----------



## hope4family

Wait it out for the minimum time, and then if ex hasn't shaped up, if you think its worth it, request more custody. Otherwise if you can deal with the next few years then go on ahead. 

I empathize when I read your story though. I don't get child support or spousal support coming or going either way, but my ex, is always asking for more of something.


----------



## Dread Pirate Roberts

<Rant>
Just found out my kids have no phone service, because XW hasn't paid the cell phone bill for a couple of months. This is the kind of BS that I started this thread about...
</Rant>


----------



## michzz

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> ....Here we go again. Just got a text from one of my daughters. They want to retake a math class this summer, "and you have to pay for it". I'm going to call the ex and send an email telling her this has to stop - any discussion of finances must be between me and her. But she will ignore it as always, and it's the kids that suffer, not her.


The comment that bothered me in this thread the most was that the big concern was regarding the cost of retaking a math class and how he finds out.

There should be a discussion about why is she needing to retake a math class?!

Split the cost of the remedial class down the middle. Get a receipt for the class and deduct half of it when writing your support check.

Keep your daughter on track for a successful education. This will help her later in life.


----------



## Dread Pirate Roberts

She ended up with a high C, and wanted to redo. And that's exactly what I offered - 50% each. Her response was "Well, I guess she's not going to take the class cuz I have no money". I talked to my daughter, but the ex refuses to discuss anything - she just seagulls everything.


----------



## hope4family

Sorry DPR. That sucks. 

On a side note, your screen name is amazing. Making me smile every time.


----------



## long_done

OP - just be glad you aren't married to her any more.. LOL

Imagine if you hadn't divorced. Money is important, but your kids are more important.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

michzz said:


> The comment that bothered me in this thread the most was that the big concern was regarding the cost of retaking a math class and how he finds out.
> 
> There should be a discussion about why is she needing to retake a math class?!
> 
> Split the cost of the remedial class down the middle. Get a receipt for the class and deduct half of it when writing your support check.


Agreed he should have been consulted when it affects his wallet. But you can't do that. You can't pay for something and then deduct from support. 

Besides, nothing he ever does will be good enough for an NPD.


----------



## michzz

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> She ended up with a high C, and wanted to redo. And that's exactly what I offered - 50% each. Her response was "Well, I guess she's not going to take the class cuz I have no money". I talked to my daughter, but the ex refuses to discuss anything - she just seagulls everything.


I don't think you need to discuss it with her, just pay for it and deduct half the cost from the child support check. I'd like to see a judge say that it was not child support.


----------



## Pluto2

michzz said:


> I don't think you need to discuss it with her, just pay for it and deduct half the cost from the child support check. I'd like to see a judge say that it was not child support.


But child support doesn't work that way. If she wants to be a pill about it, she can go to court for the full monthly amount of support and she will win. It will be considered a voluntary extra payment unless its spelled out in the divorce agreement. He would be in a better legal position to argue that she is preventing effective communication with the kids as a means to get custody, 'cause no judge wants you to waste their time over a phone bill.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I'm not a fan of sharing financial info with kids but it might be time to send that kid an email that states:

I send your mother $1000 each month for HER support. I send your mother $900 each month to take care of you guys. That amount is to cover my share of ALL of your expenses including food, clothing, shelter, school and activities and medical care. Your mother is expected by law to contribute her share because you are her children, too, therefore it is only fair she also contributes to the cost of raising you all. 

How it is spent, or how little your mother makes is beyond my control. She can either a) also contribute $900 for HER share all of the child-related expenses by a) reducing HER personal needs and expenditures; or b) earning more; or c) adjusting what she spends on child related expenses by, for example, reducing the clothing allowance and reallocating it to summer school fees.

I have no control over which option your mother chooses. Instead she has chosen to involve you in this matter, which I find reprehensible but which leaves me no choice but to explain this to you. 

I could understand your bitterness if I could afford to live in a house bigger than yours, or if I drove a fancy sports car, but I don't. Since your brother has a part-time job making $6,000 annually tax free, perhaps you should explore babysitting, lawn mowing or other such age appropriate ways of earning extra money so that you can have the extra things you so desire."


----------



## Dread Pirate Roberts

Pluto2 said:


> But child support doesn't work that way. If she wants to be a pill about it, she can go to court for the full monthly amount of support and she will win. It will be considered a voluntary extra payment unless its spelled out in the divorce agreement. He would be in a better legal position to argue that she is preventing effective communication with the kids as a means to get custody, 'cause no judge wants you to waste their time over a phone bill.


Pluto,

There are a couple of things in this life I will not mess with. One is the IRS, the other is my divorce decree. It is followed to the letter, so this would never be an option for me, and I've been told the same thing by my attorney.



EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm not a fan of sharing financial info with kids but it might be time to send that kid an email that states:
> 
> I send your mother $1000 each month for HER support. I send your mother $900 each month to take care of you guys. That amount is to cover my share of ALL of your expenses including food, clothing, shelter, school and activities and medical care. Your mother is expected by law to contribute her share because you are her children, too, therefore it is only fair she also contributes to the cost of raising you all.
> 
> How it is spent, or how little your mother makes is beyond my control. She can either a) also contribute $900 for HER share all of the child-related expenses by a) reducing HER personal needs and expenditures; or b) earning more; or c) adjusting what she spends on child related expenses by, for example, reducing the clothing allowance and reallocating it to summer school fees.
> 
> I have no control over which option your mother chooses. Instead she has chosen to involve you in this matter, which I find reprehensible but which leaves me no choice but to explain this to you.
> 
> I could understand your bitterness if I could afford to live in a house bigger than yours, or if I drove a fancy sports car, but I don't. Since your brother has a part-time job making $6,000 annually tax free, perhaps you should explore babysitting, lawn mowing or other such age appropriate ways of earning extra money so that you can have the extra things you so desire."


EW,

I've had this conversation with both my girls - they know exactly what I send, and that while their mom may be writing the checks, I'm paying the bills. My youngest daughter started crying during said conversation, which happened after ex refused to pay for 50% of the school yearbooks at the end of the school year. She literally thinks that I'm supposed to pay her the CS, and then cover anything extra that comes up. She was a cake eater when we were married, and nothing has changed.

I don't think I was clear enough. I do not believe for one second that the idea that I had to pay for all of that class came from my daughter. That's why I told her and her mom that going forward ANY conversation about money or the like comes from the ex only, period. It's just BS to put your kids up to something like that. She is simply a piece or work; I tell my friends about what she has done/said and they just shake their heads in disbelief. If any of you have had to deal with Narcissistic/Borderline personalities, you will know what I'm talking about. Just one quick example. After this class thing, she tells me that "I'm not just trying to live off the kid's child support. I bring money to the table - alimony".


----------



## Dread Pirate Roberts

hope4family said:


> Sorry DPR. That sucks.
> 
> On a side note, your screen name is amazing. Making me smile every time.


Ha! Thanks hope. Princess Bride is easily one of my top 5 movies ever.



long_done said:


> OP - just be glad you aren't married to her any more.. LOL
> 
> Imagine if you hadn't divorced. Money is important, but your kids are more important.


I said that in another thread on here. It's simply astounding what you can acclimate to. After I moved out, the normalcy of my life was almost overwhelming, honestly.


----------



## michzz

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> Pluto,
> 
> There are a couple of things in this life I will not mess with. One is the IRS, the other is my divorce decree. It is followed to the letter, so this would never be an option for me, and I've been told the same thing by my attorney.
> 
> 
> 
> EW,
> 
> I've had this conversation with both my girls - they know exactly what I send, and that while their mom may be writing the checks, I'm paying the bills. My youngest daughter started crying during said conversation, which happened after ex refused to pay for 50% of the school yearbooks at the end of the school year. She literally thinks that I'm supposed to pay her the CS, and then cover anything extra that comes up. She was a cake eater when we were married, and nothing has changed.
> 
> I don't think I was clear enough. I do not believe for one second that the idea that I had to pay for all of that class came from my daughter. That's why I told her and her mom that going forward ANY conversation about money or the like comes from the ex only, period. It's just BS to put your kids up to something like that. She is simply a piece or work; I tell my friends about what she has done/said and they just shake their heads in disbelief. If any of you have had to deal with Narcissistic/Borderline personalities, you will know what I'm talking about. Just one quick example. After this class thing, she tells me that "I'm not just trying to live off the kid's child support. I bring money to the table - alimony".


Thanks for clarifying.

It's a sad and frustrating state of things for sure.

if the divorce decree is the final judgement, then so be it.

It also sounds like the ex likes to zing you in the only way she knows how--by punishing your kids financially and pointing her dirty finger at you.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> Pluto,
> 
> There are a couple of things in this life I will not mess with. One is the IRS, the other is my divorce decree. It is followed to the letter, so this would never be an option for me, and I've been told the same thing by my attorney.
> 
> 
> 
> EW,
> 
> I've had this conversation with both my girls - they know exactly what I send, and that while their mom may be writing the checks, I'm paying the bills. My youngest daughter started crying during said conversation, which happened after ex refused to pay for 50% of the school yearbooks at the end of the school year. She literally thinks that I'm supposed to pay her the CS, and then cover anything extra that comes up. She was a cake eater when we were married, and nothing has changed.
> 
> I don't think I was clear enough. I do not believe for one second that the idea that I had to pay for all of that class came from my daughter. That's why I told her and her mom that going forward ANY conversation about money or the like comes from the ex only, period. It's just BS to put your kids up to something like that. She is simply a piece or work; I tell my friends about what she has done/said and they just shake their heads in disbelief. If any of you have had to deal with Narcissistic/Borderline personalities, you will know what I'm talking about. Just one quick example. After this class thing, she tells me that "I'm not just trying to live off the kid's child support. I bring money to the table - alimony".


I get it. My friends also shake their heads. There is no reasoning with them, only coping, dealing, etc. If she is NPD her traits will rub off on the girls. They already have a sense of entitlement (most teens do to a degree, but...) and if they have the right to demand things of you. They are not your equal, they do not tell you to do anything.

That's why I found it so worth while to get that professional diagnosis. I didn't know what it was, just that it was not right, normal, fair, etc.

LOL At her bringing money to the table "alimony" Uh, that's still YOU bringing money to the table. That's actually for her to live, not her share of child support!


----------



## Dread Pirate Roberts

I'm bumping this, just because I'd like to know if my thought process is out of whack here or not. 

Refresher - I pay CS and Spousal support. It provides 100% of the financial support in the ex's household, and it's over 3K/month, split right down the middle between the two. She doesn't work at all. So everything purchased, every bill paid, etc. is paid for out of that.

I just get a text asking if I will pay for half of my daughter's cell phone upgrade. My though process is "Half? That means I'm paying 100%". If she actually brought in any income on her own, I could at least rationalize it to some degree...

Thanks,

DPR


----------



## michzz

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> I'm bumping this, just because I'd like to know if my thought process is out of whack here or not.
> 
> Refresher - I pay CS and Spousal support. It provides 100% of the financial support in the ex's household, and it's over 3K/month, split right down the middle between the two. She doesn't work at all. So everything purchased, every bill paid, etc. is paid for out of that.
> 
> I just get a text asking if I will pay for half of my daughter's cell phone upgrade. My though process is "Half? That means I'm paying 100%". If she actually brought in any income on her own, I could at least rationalize it to some degree...
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> DPR


Respond by stating that you will physically go get the upgraded phone if the entire amount of said upgrade is deducted from the support check.

Otherwise, she can save money for a budgeted upgrade. Oh, the agreement in writing, of course.


----------



## PBear

Why doesn't she work? 

My ex works, but I still contribute more than half of her household income. In the situation you describe, I would pay half of the upgrade, if I thought it was needed/deserved. I don't question my ex on what she spends her money on, or get her to justify the money I "gjve" her. 

C


----------



## Pluto2

Simply tell her no you will not pay over the current support. Upgraded cell phones is a bit much. Geez, I haven't upgraded in a couple years. Yes, the kids laugh at me, and no I don't care. If an upgraded phone is that important to your DD, why can't she babysit, or walk dogs or something to earn her own extras?


----------



## EleGirl

How long has your daughter had her current cell phone?

If you decide to pay, you need to pay it directly to the cell phone company. For all you know, she just found a cleaver way to get more money out of you.


----------



## michzz

EleGirl said:


> How long has your daughter had her current cell phone?
> 
> If you decide to pay, you need to pay it directly to the cell phone company. For all you know, she just found a* cleaver* way to get more money out of you.


Serendipitous choice of words or a typo?


----------



## EleGirl

michzz said:


> Serendipitous choice of words or a typo?


Typo... :rofl:


----------



## Dread Pirate Roberts

PBear said:


> Why doesn't she work?
> 
> My ex works, but I still contribute more than half of her household income. In the situation you describe, I would pay half of the upgrade, if I thought it was needed/deserved. I don't question my ex on what she spends her money on, or get her to justify the money I "gjve" her.
> 
> C


Because she doesn't want to. Her last excuse was "The girls aren't emotionally ready for me to get a job right now." These girls are in high school, keep in mind. If I only contributed half, this wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm not looking for advice on whether or not to pay for the phone, but whether or not my feelings about these "pay half" requests, given that I pay for 100% of everything over there already, is off base or unreasonable.

Just got another one! My daughter was trying out for local club volleyball - that I knew about - but the ex took her to a traveling club and she made the team. So this morning - "The first payment for volleyball is $1,750 on the 25th. I hope you are willing to split that so she can play". The woman has no boundaries about anything - money, men, you name it.

DPR


----------



## PBear

Typically, the courts will impute an income for her if she choses not to work. That didn't happen in your case? And if my ex expected me to pay for something like the volleyball fees, she'd have to take me to court. Especially since you weren't consulted in advance. 

C


----------



## Openminded

No, you shouldn't be paying for anything extra that your ex comes up with since she is unwilling to contribute by finding a job. 

Your daughters need to be fully aware of the reality of the situation so they wll be prepared when she tries to blame you for whatever it is they aren't getting.


----------



## Revamped

I strongly disagree on showing children income and expenses and CS payments. They do not need to be dragged into the middle of your divorce - again.

My x pays his CS, in full and on time. And that's it. I have NEVER gone to him and asked for more money for the children's sake. I work full time and when the money runs out, it runs out. I have paid for glasses, braces, driving school, insurance on a 16 yr old boy...

So, the way I feel, is if your kid asks you to buy a stupid notebook, or skiing lessons or whatever, and you refer the conversation back to how much you pay your x, you're just being vindictive. Again. And your children notice.

Go low/no contact with your x. Stop talking to your children about your finances. And for goodness sakes, love your children more than you hate your x.


----------



## Pluto2

Revamped said:


> My x pays his CS, in full and on time. And that's it. I have NEVER gone to him and asked for more money for the children's sake. I work full time and when the money runs out, it runs out. I have paid for glasses, braces, driving school, insurance on a 16 yr old boy...


But there's the difference. His ex is coming to him for more money-regularly. She doesn't work. You have financial integrity and she doesn't.


----------



## michzz

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> Just got another one! My daughter was trying out for local club volleyball - that I knew about - but the ex took her to a traveling club and she made the team. So this morning - "The first payment for volleyball is $1,750 on the 25th. I hope you are willing to split that so she can play". The woman has no boundaries about anything - money, men, you name it.
> 
> DPR


You need to apprise her in writing that you will not pay for any significant extra fees unless you agree to it BEFORE try outs occur.

What she is doing is not in the best interest of your children. She'll make you out to be the reason the girl can't be in volleyball, etc.

That is a lot of money for a recreational sport.


----------



## ButtPunch

She's trying to manipulate you. She's broke cause she don't work so she's trying to use the kids to get more money out of you. Unless you agree to pay the expense in a mutual decision, I would tell her to take it out of the support payment. 

I believe giving in here will set a precedent where she is always asking for money. Nip it in the bud.


----------



## BFGuru

She needs to work. Period. I'd threaten to take it to domestic relations, and then follow through. I no uncertain terms is she to sit on her ass and not contribute to their needs. 

Secondly, stop allowing her to put the children in the middle. My x did and does this all the time. "Dad, will you buy me this? Mom says she has no money." (I am honest that there is no money because they demand DAILY I buy them things, which could be what your daughters are doing also). His response would always be "I give your mom over a thousand dollars every month. She is supposed to buy you everything. She's taking all my money." 

Well, no. I'm not taking all your money. You still make more money than me since you insisted on getting your masters when I was trying to finish my bachelors, leaving me stranded with no way to get viable employment. You make more than me post payments. Your girlfriend also makes more than double what I make. So stop. It makes the children angry with me, and makes them pity you, or worse, vice versa. 

I do not discuss how much their dad gives. He has told them the exact amount. They are children and do not grasp the reality of how little that money covers. 

You may need to force the issue legally about her working. But you must stop allowing her to place your children in the middle of a pissing war. 

"Mom says you have to buy this."

"Your mother can talk to me directly, you don't need to deal with this." 

That's all you need to respond. Ever.


----------



## Hardtohandle

I think a high school age child is old enough to understand money doesn't grow on trees and that everyone has an income and there is a limit to the income. 

Its not being vindictive, its just stating mere fact of life.. Kids need to understand that you just can't charge it or just keep extending your credit to get things ASAP. Heck it seems some adults in this case need to understand it as well, AKA DPR Ex wife..

Sadly I have seen this with a friend of mine as well. The ex wife, who had the affair as well uses child support as a weapon attack against the husband.. Any time she perceives an increase in his income she pulls him into court for a CS increase. The man is literally living in his moms basement from owning 2 homes and 2 cars.. 

Again there is nothing wrong with this is my income per month, these are my bills and responsibilities.. 

Now if DPR is paying 3k a month to his ex and is making 13k a month total, then I wouldn't see his gripe.. But I really don't think its that way.

Look I have my kids with me and my ex *just started* paying me child support from a year and a half since she is gone. Mind you for the first 6 months I payed her and the kids never even left. I had to basically force her hand to agree to stop paying child support and then on top of it, it took months to get into court. 

I have one child that just started HS and one in elementary school, I work full time. I could have retired 4 years ago to collect a pension but didn't.. I could retire today and make more money home then working, but I don't because I need to stay current in the field I work in so right now I am just working until I get hired by another place. 

I see zero excuse why his ex wife can't work.. Its crystal clear she wants to be vindictive still. 

My ex wife and her boyfriend thought the same. I would pay for everything and they would have it easy with both their incomes.. It was that, that put me on fire to make sure that would never happen.. I let her know I would fight her till the bitter end.. I wasn't gonna pay for her and her boyfriend to sit on their fat a$$es at home and chill and relax while I busted my a$$ at work.. 

She wanted this new life, she will have to work to support this new life.. 

I would bring her into court if you can.. 

I know the judge just told my ex to either supplement income with more work or find a full time job.. 

Even the judge was wondering what my ex was doing if she is still working 3 days a week, 3 hours each day and she is gone a year and a half..

It is utter Bullsh!t and I don't get it.. People think that one parent should work 3 jobs so the custodial parent can just relax pool side with the kids. 

Sorry they chose this life.. This is what happens when people get divorced with kids. It sucks for everyone, that includes the kids..

Take it from me.. 
Dad left when I was 12, never came back.. It sucked, but that was my life.. Nothing I can do about it. 
My ex wife left and hasn't seen our oldest in a year and a half.. Again nothing I can do about it.. 

This is the life my Ex wife imposed on me and my kids.. I have to deal with it.. So do my kids..

DPR, I would find out what you can do honestly.. I wouldn't pay for the sport.. Sorry its life.. You can't always have everything you want..


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## 'CuseGal

Wow I am the ex wife who has 100% custody and gets CS for 2 kids (no alimony) and I can't imagine doing what your ex is doing, despite the fact that my ex makes more than 20x more money per year than I do (and gives me less money per month than he makes in 3 DAYS). I work 2 jobs plus own my own business on the side where I'm fighting to make a profit before I have to close the doors. I would NEVER ask him to provide for MY expenses or my business expenses and indeed I only go to him for extras if something big comes up, like my 11 year old son needing braces which our dental insurance doesn't cover. He covers their health insurance (my employer doesn't provide any) and has started college funds for him, but these are all things he agreed to in the divorce settlement. And can more than afford at a quarter million dollars a year.

Your ex needs to get a job. I don't care if its flipping burgers at Mickey Ds or cleaning toilets at the local Holiday Inn. There is a time and place for spousal support for a displaced homemaker, but there are also a lot of resources for them to get free/cheap education to start their own careers. Your ex has a sense of entitlement and I'm guessing no work ethic either. She needs to lose the first and find the second. I have NO USE for people who are perfectly able-bodied but refuse to even try to support themselves.


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## Hopeful Cynic

However much we may agree with him that his ex should get a job and support herself, his reality is that she's not willing to do that. He's got to deal with her as she is.

His main problem is that she's making him out to be the bad guy to the daughters, making them go to him whenever they need money for things that CS ought to cover.

The only thing he can do to fight this is to point out that his income is covering two households right now and it is stretched to the limit. If the daughters and their mother want to exceed that limit, it is up to them to find employment to accomplish that.

And then stand firm. Refuse to cover anything unexpected like that volleyball business as "I was not consulted about this in advance and cannot fit it into the budget." Refuse to cover anything that ought to be covered by CS. "A haircut? I already gave her money for that sort of thing. I guess she used it for something else."

The only thing I would make an exception about is anything that would help your daughters prepare for the future, especially with regards to good work ethic and education. So the repeated math class is kind of essential and I would make it happen. But the math/fairness nut in me would calculate what her 'income' is (the SS you pay) and what your 'income' (your salary minus the SS) is and only offer to pay a proportional share. And pay it right to the facility, not to the ex. "I paid my 75% to the school, they are expecting the rest before they will let the kid enrol."

All that said....I have to wonder. Did your ex have any job or career while you were married? Or did you set yourself up for this by encouraging her to be a stay at home mom?

Also, I would really be focusing on making sure the daughters do not turn out like their mother. It's going to be a hard influence to overcome, and you're going to have to really emphasize education and good career prospects to them, which may mean post-secondary education and a longer CS obligation.


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## EnjoliWoman

:iagree:

In addition to that, I would send an email return receipt and specify that in no uncertain terms should the girls come to him for money, that she needs to deal with him directly regarding anything above and beyond existing child support *IN ADVANCE* and failure to do so will result in ZERO dollars toward said request. If she does not consult him in advance, then he will not pay any of it. Period.


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all the advice and input. I had already told the kids and her that any talk about money and finances comes from the ex only, period. There are still some slips - my daughter asked for a haircut yesterday, for example - but I just tell them that I'm already providing money for those kinds of things, and they need to talk to their mother.

There was a question about whether I set myself up for this. She worked when we met. After the first daughter was born, she took time off, which I was fine with. After they got into school, she was repeatedly encouraged, asked, whatever you want to call it to go back to work, or school, but no dice. When we moved out to Vegas, a friend of ours offered to get her a job at a local hospital, and I had connections as well, but same deal. So, I guess in a sense I did bring this on myself by either not being more forceful - that just wasn't my personality at the time - or leaving earlier. But that's life.

It's just unreal to me that she thinks she's some kind of super mom. Latest example. I bought a car for my oldest daughter when she turned 17. I told them all upfront - "I'm buying this car, but when I do, your mother is responsible for maintenance, insurance, etc. I'm transferring the title to you. If she doesn't accept that, then the deal is off." So what does she do? She sells the car I gave her in the divorce - fully paid for, mind you - and now my kid's car is the family car. Last week they tell me it needs brake pads. The ex says "I never agreed to this. You bought it, you fix it. I wanted her to have a new car so we wouldn't have problems like this". I just laughed, told her she could buy the parts and I'd be happy to do the labor - I like doing that kind of stuff - or she could take it to a shop.

DPR


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## EnjoliWoman

I wasn't going to start a new thread and your last post is a perfect segue. (and new cars need brake pads, eventually, too! nutcase...)

Kiddo just got her driver's license. This is a bit of a financial burden but I still have the car he picked out years ago. We talked then of giving it to kiddo because this car will run forever if well maintained and I have.

So I buy a 'new' used car for myself, get quotes and finally get insurance that is less than what I really ought to have to be covered financially but it's what I can afford and I used the word 'afford' loosely.

So I send ex a nice email telling him that I'm giving it to her and that it's a "nice to have" not a "must have" and not part of support and that the insurance is quite expensive and I would appreciate his helping her with car maintenance and gas on occasion. I tell him it's well maintained, that the service records are in the glove compartment and a very brief list of the most recent major work (i.e. when it got the last timing belt, that the brakes are in good shape, etc.) He doesn't reply.

So when she passes her license exam I go over a few things about the car and mention that perhaps her Dad will throw in some gas money on occasion (assuming she drives and hour each way twice a month for his visitation) and mention that I sent him an email giving him an update on the car and that it doesn't need anything but it would be great if he could help out if it needed anything. She told me "Yeah... he isn't going to give me gas money. He's been driving back and forth for years..." and sort of trailed off. I said that, while I appreciate his wanting to take care of his mother (the "reason" - besides poor financial planning skills that he moved in with her) he CHOSE to move an hour away whereas I have stayed within 10 miles of the same area of town. 

I'm considering not letting her drive to his place. Why should I pay the gas and wear and tear on a car that already has 200K miles on it for her to drive 40 miles one way to visit her Dad?


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## Morgiana

Enjoli, is your daughter working? If not are there defined reasons she is allowed to take the car? Ie to school, to after-school activities? If Dad isn't going to help and you can't afford the gas, you can't afford the gas. I'd tell the ex that you can't afford to pick up all her transport costs for visitation, and as such she isn't allowed to drive to see him, he has to come get her. I'd also tell your daughter the same thing. But I also hope you are having your daughter pay for some of her own expenses in relation to the car. The way I see it, cars are a privilege, not a right. It's a good way to introduce a child into the financial responsibilities of being an adult.

-M


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## Pluto2

Oh teens and cars......
My oldest has her license, but not her own car. She also has a job and our understanding is when she uses the car, she puts gas in it. I totally agree with that and she respects our arrangement. My ex said last year he would help DD repair an old car so she could have her own transportation, but that turned out to be a game of waiting for pigs to fly. She doesn't make enough to do the needed repairs on her own.

Enjoli, no way should you be financing his visitation. I have a friend whose kids live about 2 hours away. Almost all of the time, the father drives up, gets the kids and brings them down here. Recently, their older child has asked to drive down. The mother lets her use the car and the father fills it up. It works (and seems to be the only thing they agree on these days).

Pirate, you are very generous with your time and skills. And your ex, what did she do with other routine maintenance? Trade the car in every 3000 miles?


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## EnjoliWoman

Since she is quite inexperienced, I'm going to prohibit driving to his place based on that. If I see he ponies up for some gas money eventually, I'll let her drive once I feel comfortable. But if he doesn't, I agree - I'm not footing the bill for his visitation time.

Currently she isn't working and I don't want her to - she is struggling with an AP class that is very demanding and with Spanish II which is difficult for her but required for college. This summer she is getting a job and we'll see what her Junior year classes look like and see how well she manages her time. The car is contingent upon keeping grades up, too.

I just find it inappropriate that he already discussed his unwillingness to pay for anything yet never even responded to my email. Because he doesn't want to put it in writing, I assume.


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

EW, I agree with Pluto - you shouldn't finance the trips. And Pluto, I've always liked working on cars, and honestly, a front brake job literally takes 30 minutes per side tops, so it's not big time killer. Also, you're not far off. When we divorced, I gave her the two cars we had, since I had another one for me. Free and clear, paid for. She sold both of them. Said she needed them money to move both times. She waited until after I got the car for my daughter to get rid of the last one. Classy.

I've never been a huge proponent of kids working during school. They have the rest of their adult lives for that, but that's just me. As far as cars being a privilege, I suppose that's true, but when I was growing up, it was very rural - 20 minutes to school and no bus, 40 minutes to the first decent sized town. My grandparents were as happy as I was that I had a car, I think.

DPR


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## lonelyhusband321

PIRATE:

All may not be lost. I am all too familiar with support matters. 

I had a friend (in California) who had almost exactly the same thing going on as you have. In fact it WAS exactly the same thing. His ex had two degrees and simply didn't want to work. Every job she could find was "beneath her".

After three years (I don't know if there's a mandatory time frame), he took her back into court and the judge gave her what's called a GAVRON warning. Not sure what that means in legalese, but it basically said that if - in one more year she didn't have a job and at least be working toward independence, the support would stop - period.

Not sure if there are similar things in Nevada, but it might be worth a short call to an attorney to talk it over.

Good luck, and congratulations on being a real man and supporting your children!! 

Too many "deadbeats" give all the rest of us a bad name...


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## Pluto2

But isn't that spousal support, not child support?


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

Howdy TAM. I'm bouncing this thread with another question/information. Or maybe it's a rant. But I always appreciate the feedback from everyone here. The situation hasn't changed. Still no worky from the XW. My kids are teenagers, as a refresher. They will be 17 and 18 this year.

It's the youngest that I am having the trouble with. She is in the habit of saying "mom gave me money for X. I think you should pitch in too". And I'm getting tired of it, honestly. I provide the sole support for that household - every last dime comes from either spousal or CS. But according to her, that's her mother's money, CS isn't all I'm supposed to give, etc. I'm about the point of saying "If you want me to support you 100% financially, then you need to pack up your things and move in with me". She, unfortunately, is developing many of her mother's less desirable character traits. It's been a comment from both sides of her family lately.

The current friction is due to a trip she takes every summer when she goes back to see a friend of hers where we used to live. Her mother gave her some spending money for the trip. Now she's saying "Mom gave me money, but I need some money for other things". These trips since I left are much like the volleyball incident earlier. Her mother just agrees to send her whether she can really afford it or not. I'm hearing they are selling everything they have left for money - clothes, jewelry, etc. Her parents moved in with her, and my oldest was telling my mom and her aunt she had to take her grandmother to the pawn shop so she would have enough money to go back home for her grandson's (XW sister's kid) birthday. So, it's a mess over there. Anyway, I haven't sent my daughter any money, and I'm trying to sort out if I'm just pissed at her mother, you know? Punishment by proxy. But good grief, this has to end sometime. And her attitude, IMHO, just sucks.

DPR


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## lifeistooshort

Dread Pirate Roberts said:


> Howdy TAM. I'm bouncing this thread with another question/information. Or maybe it's a rant. But I always appreciate the feedback from everyone here. The situation hasn't changed. Still no worky from the XW. My kids are teenagers, as a refresher. They will be 17 and 18 this year.
> 
> It's the youngest that I am having the trouble with. She is in the habit of saying "mom gave me money for X. I think you should pitch in too". And I'm getting tired of it, honestly. I provide the sole support for that household - every last dime comes from either spousal or CS. But according to her, that's her mother's money, CS isn't all I'm supposed to give, etc. I'm about the point of saying "If you want me to support you 100% financially, then you need to pack up your things and move in with me". She, unfortunately, is developing many of her mother's less desirable character traits. It's been a comment from both sides of her family lately.
> 
> The current friction is due to a trip she takes every summer when she goes back to see a friend of hers where we used to live. Her mother gave her some spending money for the trip. Now she's saying "Mom gave me money, but I need some money for other things". These trips since I left are much like the volleyball incident earlier. Her mother just agrees to send her whether she can really afford it or not. I'm hearing they are selling everything they have left for money - clothes, jewelry, etc. Her parents moved in with her, and my oldest was telling my mom and her aunt she had to take her grandmother to the pawn shop so she would have enough money to go back home for her grandson's (XW sister's kid) birthday. So, it's a mess over there. Anyway, I haven't sent my daughter any money, and I'm trying to sort out if I'm just pissed at her mother, you know? Punishment by proxy. But good grief, this has to end sometime. And her attitude, IMHO, just sucks.
> 
> DPR



Sounds to me like she's manipulating you. Your daughter is old enough to see what's going on.....I'd suggest you sit down with her and tell her a few things. Like that fact that you respect that your ex is her mother but frankly in life adults have to work if they want stuff, and the fact that her mother doesn't want to work isn't your problem. You are supporting the entire house because her mother doesn't want to work and that leaves less for the extras she'd like to have. It's a tough lesson for sure but one that she needs to learn, lest she decide herself that mom made it without working and so should she.

If your daughter wants to throw a tantrum well you may have to deal with that until it passes, which it will. She may already know her mother is lazy and not know what else to do but milk you as best she can, but choices in life have consequences. Tell her that if the day comes when you don't have to support her mother because she won't work you might have some extra for her. She's receiving a very bad message right now that women can knock out kids and then don't have to work. You don't want her taking this attitude into her own personal life, it'll make her a terrible partner.

And please don't let a 17 year old tell you what things are "supposed" to be for. Like she has any clue.


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## hope4family

lifeistooshort said:


> And please don't let a 17 year old tell you what things are "supposed" to be for. Like she has any clue.


BOOM! Good advisement. 

DPR - Did you ever have a moment where you rewarded your daughters work with something? 

This might, if you can afford it, be a good time to re-teach that lesson or at least re-affirm it. 

In other words, don't do it. But if you were to pay or give more money, let it be because the child earned it. 

I have two nieces who are this age. This is a lesson I have to constantly teach and re-teach when they come screaming to me about how "unfair" their mother is because of xyz. 

I have always asked, what have you done to earn it? They currently never give a response. 

It's a hard lesson for my sister to teach. It may or may not take hold right away. But try. This is sadly one of those moments where you do the right thing, but do not concern yourself overly with the "results".


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

lifeistooshort said:


> Sounds to me like she's manipulating you. Your daughter is old enough to see what's going on.....I'd suggest you sit down with her and tell her a few things. Like that fact that you respect that your ex is her mother but frankly in life adults have to work if they want stuff, and the fact that her mother doesn't want to work isn't your problem. You are supporting the entire house because her mother doesn't want to work and that leaves less for the extras she'd like to have. It's a tough lesson for sure but one that she needs to learn, lest she decide herself that mom made it without working and so should she.
> 
> If your daughter wants to throw a tantrum well you may have to deal with that until it passes, which it will. She may already know her mother is lazy and not know what else to do but milk you as best she can, but choices in life have consequences. Tell her that if the day comes when you don't have to support her mother because she won't work you might have some extra for her. She's receiving a very bad message right now that women can knock out kids and then don't have to work. You don't want her taking this attitude into her own personal life, it'll make her a terrible partner.
> 
> And please don't let a 17 year old tell you what things are "supposed" to be for. Like she has any clue.


No worries there, life. When she says that, she is shut down hard. She tried it again last night, and got an earful. Especially because she was asking this time for basic toiletry items "she forgot to bring".

My mother echoed your words last night after I posted here - great minds and all that :smile2: - and it's pretty much what I've told her before, and she heard it again last night, very direct and very clear. We will see what her attitude is tonight, as she normally calls before I hit the sack. You're right, it is manipulation, and it's exactly how her mother acts, unfortunately.



hope4family said:


> BOOM! Good advisement.
> 
> DPR - Did you ever have a moment where you rewarded your daughters work with something?
> 
> This might, if you can afford it, be a good time to re-teach that lesson or at least re-affirm it.
> 
> In other words, don't do it. But if you were to pay or give more money, let it be because the child earned it.
> 
> I have two nieces who are this age. This is a lesson I have to constantly teach and re-teach when they come screaming to me about how "unfair" their mother is because of xyz.
> 
> I have always asked, what have you done to earn it? They currently never give a response.
> 
> It's a hard lesson for my sister to teach. It may or may not take hold right away. But try. This is sadly one of those moments where you do the right thing, but do not concern yourself overly with the "results".


Good advice, hope. Yes, I have done that, and that's how we will be doing things when she gets home.

Everything else is going fantastic in my post-divorce life, so you can't have everything, I suppose:grin2:


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## lifeistooshort

When my parents split up i stayed with my dad and my two sisters went with my mom. My mom thinks I'm an idiot but I'm well aware that she knew I'd stay with my dad and waited until I was 18 to maximize child support.... I'm the oldest.

My middle sister actually demanded that my mom give her the child support. Apparently she's entitled to live and eat for free and the rest should've been her spending money. Yeah, that didn't fly..... some kids are stupid and entitled. 

Eventually your ex will lose cs and then what will she do? 

And yes, great minds 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnjoliWoman

Sounds like you are handling it well. I was going to say that my response to her would be "But I DID give you money for X. That money Mom gave you was actually MY money."


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