# Is my husbands female friend harmless?



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

Im so sorry about the length of this post! 

My Husband has a lot of female friends. He has 4 very close ones. I've met them all and they're genuinely lovely and I get along with them really well. Now this other one, the 5th friend, he had not know for long... just a few months. Shes newly divorced, 27, single mum with a 4 year old daughter. I got bad vibes from her and my first impression of her wasnt very great either. We will call her sally. Im 28 and H is 35. During all this me and H were BF/GF and then engaged. Weve now had a muslim marriage ceremony. 

Me and H had been dating for 2 weeks. We went were out for breakfast and he got texts from Sally saying she needs to call him but he replied I'm still out with GF so just text me. He was getting bombarded with texts and I could see he was getting irritated. H told me, 'I'm sorry about this shes going on at me saying that she did something last night which she regrets and really needs to see me'. I said oh I hope everything's okay to which he responded 'oh I bet she got drunk and slept with someone last night'. A few texts later and he says 'yep that was it and now shes making out as if it's my fault because I wasnt there for her and was busy last night'. Dont get me wrong I dont care about a girls sexual choices, it's the fact that she was trying to make him feel guilty for spending time with someone other than her. So that was my first impression of her.

The first time I meet Sally is because shes upset and wants to meet H. He tells me hes tired and would rather not. He then suggests the 3 of us meet up as shes not taking no for an answer. During the first meeting she seemed fine but there were few things that I noticed. When H was in the restaurant bathroom, Sally asked me how I am okay with H having female friends because she wouldn't be okay wit it. I simply replied im cool with it because I trust H, he is very honest with me. My plan that evening was to stay over with H and then call to work sick the next morning. I had only just met Sally and she asked me multiple times if I wanted to sleepover with her. I politely declined. The next morning she texts H asking if he please go with her to hes local car wash (??) And then get a bite to eat with her. He explains my GF is still here I'm just spending my day with her. She insisted the 3 of us go out and so we do. On the way back to mine Sally notices some fancy clothes shops in my local area. She asks H if he will go clothes shopping with her after dropping me home. He says NO I hate shopping. Shes persistent saying please just come with and help me pick clothes. I'm sat right next to her and she didn't ask me instead she kept begging H to go with her to pick out her outfits. So that's the first time I met her. I thought she was cool but also felt as though she relies on my H to do 'boyfriend type' activities with her... if that makes sense. So I felt like I'll give her chance but maybe need to be abit wary of her. 

When me and Sally hung out for the first time alone, she kept hinting that she wanted to sleepover at mine. So invited her to stay over. The whole time she was glued to her phone texting this guy she had met online. We hardly had any conversation, the evening was a bore and I found her to be very rude. I think its basic manners to put your phone away and speak to the person you're sleeping over with. 

There was one odd incident when Sally called me out of the blue and said she is close to my house and will pop by with her daughter as she wants to see my cats. I told her I was busy, i will be going to H's place as hes cooking dinner for me. She turned up anyway. She then suggested that she would drive me to H's place and then back the next day. I said no thanks I have my own car I will drive myself. She then text H and asked him if he would drive me back the next day if shes busy... after I had specifically said not to ask H because I'm perfectly capable of driving myself. She actually kept insisting that she would take me to H's house. I had to be very stern with her and explain she needs to leave so I can get ready and be on my way. A half hour later I call H and he tells me oh Sally's just been round, she said her daughter wanted to see me but I didn't invite her in as I was cooking.

Fast forward a few months and Sally's been dating this guy and calls me as they've had an argument and she wants a girls night out. I agree and she literally says to me I'm wearing a dress that shows my cleavage, make sure you do the same. I just laughed it off and said I'll wear whatever fits me right now. H calls me and I mention to him Sallys odd special request to show my cleavage. H gets pissed off with ME and says well you should tell her no I have a bf. I say no regardless of whether i have BF or not i will wear what i feel comfortable wearing. H takes this the wrong way, cuts the phone and wont speak to me. I realise hes mistaken and I send him a text clarifying that I meant I feel comfortable NOT showing my cleavage so you need not worry. Sally comes to pick me up, asks me about H and I say oh hes just being abit off with me at the moment over something petty. I didn't go into any detail. We go out to eat and then she tells me oh I text H telling him that 'me and your GF are going out' and he replied saying 'I dont care'. My reaction 'oh really? He said that?' I was genuinely surprised as its not like him to talk to his friends in that way. she replies with 'yep that's what he said'. I then say 'oh well I dont know what to say I guess hes being moody with you too'. Then she starts venting saying yep that's just men for you they're worse than women etc etc. When I get home H has calmed down and is speaking to me fine, I then ask him 'why were you being moody with Sally' he replies in shock saying 'I wasnt moody with her at all, why do you ask'. I explain what she told me and H immediate reaction was 'why is she **** stirring that is not how the conversation went at all' he reads the conversation to me and it goes something like this. Sally says 'me and your GF are going out'. H says 'that's nice, where are you going?'. Sally 'for dinner and shisha'. H 'Oh thanks for my invite'. Sally 'no invite for you as we're going to ***** about men'. H 'lol I dont care I was just kidding, have fun' 

Clearly she missed out a big portion of the conversation and misconstrued H's words to me. Had me thinking that he was still very angry. I honestly cannot understand why she did that. So I said nothing at the time and just gave it some thought, as I was afraid to make a big deal and cause problems. I went on holiday for 2 weeks and when I got back H wanted me to hang out with him and Sally. I said no, i am not happy with Sally, I made clear to H that its unacceptable and feel like I have been lied to. H goes to see Sally and confronts her about the situation. I get a phone call from Sally and straight away she's being offensive, speaking to me with attitude and raised voice and is insisting that she showed me the text messages on her phone, when I said nope you didn't at all, she accused me of lying and said 'frankly I think you dont like me and H being friends'. I stood my ground and said I'm sorry but you didn't show me any messages and you weren't truthful to me. Sally replies with, 'well I'm sorry that you misheard me' I said 'I heard exactly what you said' Sally says 'well I'm sorry that you misinterpreted what I said' I said nope I know exactly what you said I didn't misinterpret anything' she then gets angry and says 'next time dont you go around escalating things with H if you have something to say then say it to my face' at this point I just cut the phone off as I wont tolerate hearing ultimatum like that from her. All the while this is going on H is sat with her and hears the whole conversation. Once he is at home he calls me and we have a normal conversation, he tells me that he wasnt happy with how Sally spoke to me and he told her off. However later that night I call H and all of sudden he is moody and wont talk to me properly. I ask him what is the issue, he tells me that Sally almost cried and sent him a text message saying how upset she is and how she feels victimised and is scared that I will tell him to end their friendship. 

At this point I'm angry and I tell him, how on earth does she feel victimised when shes the one that lied in the first place and when she was questioned about it, she was rude and disrespectful to me! I told him that her reaction just proved to me that she was guilty. H says well if I was accused if lying when I hadn't lied I would react the same. For the next month me and H have multiple arguments about this as he keeps making excuses for her behaviour and insists that I should drop it and reach out to her and make up. I'm at my wits end now with these arguments so in order to move past I told H that fine I will reach out and make up with her, but I need to know that if a situation like this came up again, if she lies about anything again, I need to know that you will be in my corner. H reasuress me that if she did this again he would be very angry and would 100% be in my corner. 

So I reached out to her and we made up wns said we would put this behind us. 
Now my issue is that for the past month, H's words and actions have made me feel like the bad one. He's constantly criticized me for the way I handled the situation and tells me that I'm too negative and overthink things. I understand his point to an extent, but I honestly dont think I'm the bad person in this situation. Did I handle it right or has H got a point? Was I the one that did something wrong? And also I dont understand her motive behind lying? I dont feel like there are any feelings or emotional attachment with H and Sally I just think maybe she is an attention seeker and doesn't know her boundaries. Just really want to know other peoples opinions and suggestions on this.. and to know if I've done the right thing or not.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

You're going to get a lot of posts that say an opposite friend when you're married is never ok. I disagree. But, I do think this friend is toxic. I'd tell him you don't want to discuss the issue again, end of story. If he can't have your back in a problem with this women, that's a huge red flag that there is a serious issue happening and his priorities are skewed.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

I see, I also disagree. I do believe men and women can be just friends as long as there are boundaries that are never crossed. When boundaries are crossed it then becomes a slippery slope. See my husband is honestly the most kind, caring and selfless man I've met. But that also becomes a bad point. He goes out of his way for his friends but I'm noticing many of them wouldn't return the favour. When I discuss with him, he insists that he's just a positive person and tries to see the best in people. He hates conflict and in any situation tries to be the mediator. I would actually say that he's naive. There have been times when I've pointed out to him about one of his friends behaviour and only after me pointing it out does he realise that it was wrong and he called his friend out on it.


----------



## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Cat, this woman is down right crazy, plain and simple. Why are you making up with her. Your marriage doesn't need her and your husband is not protecting you in any shape or form. Your H like drama as well as Sally, and they like playing cat and mouse. Sally is treating your H like a girlfriend. And it's no wonder she has no friends. 

What is wrong with you, making up l never see such nonsense, especially from a wife. Tell you H you want Sally out of your lives. And that you currently have no issues with the other friends, because they respect you and your H's relationship. 

I am the way l am, and l do not have other women friends could I sure. But if l don't befriend a women l am sure they can live without my friendship. In the past I've had them play with possible FWB if l wanted. I don't need that problem so l don't ever respond or do anything for them by myself. Why because it makes me uncomfortable, to the point where l will not put myself or my marriage at risk. It's not for me.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Your husband is way too much in touch with his feminine side. 

Why is he so engrossed in all this female drama? My husband would blow his brains out if he had to deal with this crap on a daily basis from all these women.

Doesn't he have any MALE friends he can talk to about *guy *things?

I think opposite sexes can be friends too, but your husband just takes it to a whole new level it *doesn't* need to go.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

This Sally is fixated on your husband.

She suggested, one time, that the 'three' of you do a sleepover.

She is so desperate to sleep with your husband that she will entertain the possibility that you too, can participate.

She has a bug under her saddle that no man but your husband can itch.

And then once she has conquered your hubby she will find another three-legged man who dares say 'No' to her.

She suffers from obsessive compulsive disorder. 

She is fixated on men. Yes, one at a time, but will go for a (stand-in) in the short term.

She is one of those 'less common' women who's little gap is in charge of the big hole in her head.

Forbid your husband to have any communication with her. When and if you speak to her again, tell her off.

She's trouble with a big "T", or maybe a "V'. 
Whatever.



Lilith-


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

double troubled post...


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Catas1 said:


> I see, I also disagree. I do believe men and women can be just friends as long as there are boundaries that are never crossed. When boundaries are crossed it then becomes a slippery slope. See my husband is honestly the most kind, caring and selfless man I've met. But that also becomes a bad point. He goes out of his way for his friends but I'm noticing many of them wouldn't return the favour. When I discuss with him, he insists that he's just a positive person and tries to see the best in people. He hates conflict and in any situation tries to be the mediator. I would actually say that he's naive. There have been times when I've pointed out to him about one of his friends behaviour and only after me pointing it out does he realise that it was wrong and he called his friend out on it.


You got his MO down pat.

Sally does also.

She wants to drain his MO.

Since Dear Hubby is weak, you need to be strong. Put your nasty face on when talking to this She Devil.

Oh, don't think for a minute that your husband does not like this attention he is getting from this, uh, female. 
He may act angry, but no, that is phony baloney, pure _Cervelle de veau._

Inwardly, he likes this. 
No man is that weak. 
Or, should be. 

Hmm.



Lilith-


----------



## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Catas1 said:


> Im so sorry about the length of this post!
> 
> My Husband has a lot of female friends. He has 4 very close ones. I've met them all and they're genuinely lovely and I get along with them really well. Now this other one, the 5th friend, he had not know for long... just a few months. Shes newly divorced, 27, single mum with a 4 year old daughter. I got bad vibes from her and my first impression of her wasnt very great either. We will call her sally. Im 28 and H is 35. During all this me and H were BF/GF and then engaged. Weve now had a muslim marriage ceremony.
> 
> Me and H had been dating for 2 weeks. We went were out for breakfast and he got texts from Sally saying she needs to call him but he replied I'm still out with GF so just text me. He was getting bombarded with texts and I could see he was getting irritated. H told me, 'I'm sorry about this shes going on at me saying that she did something last night which she regrets and really needs to see me'. I said oh I hope everything's okay to which he responded 'oh I bet she got drunk and slept with someone last night'. A few texts later and he says 'yep that was it and now shes making out as if it's my fault because I wasnt there for her and was busy last night'. Dont get me wrong I dont care about a girls sexual choices, it's the fact that she was trying to make him feel guilty for spending time with someone other than her. So that was my first impression of her.


Girlie, I nearly choked reading your first paragraph and forced myself to read the second. But my spidey senses - along with my common sense, coupled with my healthy sense of standards and boundaries - would not allow me to read any further than that second paragraph. So I have no idea what transpired with this woman or whatever bad feelings and wonderment you get from her. You brought it all on yourself because you have no standards and boundaries for yourself or the man in your life.

Under no circumstances should your boyfriend be receiving texts or any other kinds of communication from other women. And you darned sure have no business allowing him to INVITE some woman to text him while you and he are out together. The two of them bombarded the time you were spending together, and you sat there through all of it without putting a stop to it. 

Rather than that being the first impression she gave you, it was the first impression you gave him to let him know you are so desperate for a man that you will fall for anything and go along with all manner of disrespect he dishes out to you.

Under no circumstances should you permit your boyfriend, fiance, or husband to have female friends. You might think it's okay, but you should have gotten the message by now that it's not okay. As you can see, it doesn't work because it's not possible. But you're ignoring the signs and blaming her for the things that happened, when you should be blaming him for disrespecting you so much that he permits them to happen. And then look at yourself and try to figure out why you have been allowing both of them to disrespect you like this.

Ask yourself what will it take and how much disrespect, disregard, and discourtesy will you tolerate before you gain some self-respect?


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

We say that men must '**** guard' their women.

This is a case where some women must *****-guard their men.
Always, is a shame when this is necessary.

Eh?


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

No.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

She sounds toxic and seems to be trying to put a wedge between you and your fiance. She doesn't respect your space. Aslo, your finance shouldn't be her shoulder to cry on. That's unhealthy. 

If your husband is accusing you of making these situations going bad, she's influencing him. 

I would have a major issue with this.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I don’t think this is about opposite sex friends, I think it’s about toxic ones.


----------



## sa58 (Feb 26, 2018)

Sounds like her issues have issues.

Those vibes, trust your gut feeling.
Rarely ever wrong.


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Not only no, but HELL NO.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Sally is a large red flag. In fact, may be a bunny boiler. Sally needs to find new friends as she is toxic to your marriage.


----------



## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

You both should read: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass. It's based on research of couples that experienced infidelity (and what/how lead up to it).


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Your husband is way too much in touch with his feminine side.
> 
> Why is he so engrossed in all this female drama? My husband would blow his brains out if he had to deal with this crap on a daily basis from all these women.
> 
> ...


I would blow my brains out too if I had to deal with such drama. 

I dont think it's that hes too in touch with his feminine side. I'm no psychologist but he had an awful childhood which involved constant violence/ abuse from his dad. He was bought up by his aunt and grandma, never really had a male figure in his life. Maybe thats why hes so comfortable with female friends? Having said that he does have guy friends that he sees regularly. 

His other female friends, 1 is married so we always go on double dates. The 2 single ones, since I've come into his life it seems they were mature enough to take a step back on their own accord. They dont chat or meet as often now and if they do I'm always included in the plans. If I can't make it his friends will suggest rearranging to when I can be there too. They've given me no reason to complain. But yes this friendship with Sally is a different story.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

SunCMars said:


> Catas1 said:
> 
> 
> > I see, I also disagree. I do believe men and women can be just friends as long as there are boundaries that are never crossed. When boundaries are crossed it then becomes a slippery slope. See my husband is honestly the most kind, caring and selfless man I've met. But that also becomes a bad point. He goes out of his way for his friends but I'm noticing many of them wouldn't return the favour. When I discuss with him, he insists that he's just a positive person and tries to see the best in people. He hates conflict and in any situation tries to be the mediator. I would actually say that he's naive. There have been times when I've pointed out to him about one of his friends behaviour and only after me pointing it out does he realise that it was wrong and he called his friend out on it.
> ...


Oh yes she definitely knows his MO and is trying so damn hard to drain it. I reckon that the only reason she's friends with him.

They used to be acquaintances around 8 years ago. She got married and moved city, they had no contact but always had mutual friends. When she got divorced and moved back, she reached out to H. He tells me she was going through a tough time and had no friends so he took her out and introduced her to some mutual friends she had lost contact with. Now those friends were all in relationships or married. H was the only one who was single at that time. And yes these friends were all Male. 

I dont know... maybe he is that weak. After I had met Sally. H would often push me to speak to her and hang with her. I got the feeling he was tired of hearing about her drama and was trying to push her onto me. The last time we met, we weren't able to attend her daughter's bday party, so we met to give her bday present. We were there maybe an hour, Sally did not stop venting about her new BF and how weird his family is. I could see at times H was losing focus and his mind was elsewhere. Every so often she'd ask a question wanting 'advice' H would look at my face and say oh why dont you tell her, from a female perspective? 
I had nothing to say, I text H saying I'm ready to leave. So we excused ourselves and left.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

StarFires said:


> Catas1 said:
> 
> 
> > Im so sorry about the length of this post!
> ...


I'm sorry I disagree. I see nothing wrong with having friends of the opposite sex, as long as they are healthy relationships with boundaries. Yes when boundaries are crossed of course they become a problem. I'm not desperate for a man. I met H after 5 years of being single. During this time I work hard on my insecurities & self esteem to make sure I didn't end up in a toxic relationship again. And I sure as hell dont believe in permitting / not permitting your other half to do something. To me that's controlling, A relationship is between two individuals and I would never try to control my partner. I've been on the receiving end of that, dealing with a partner's insecurities and him not allowing/ not permitting me to continue seeing friends and having a social life. I would never put a loved one through that. Having said that in a situation like mine, I believe evaluate the situation, make your feelings crystal clear to your other half (which is a problem because I've been holding back and haven't done that yet). And then you leave the choice in their hands. Depending on the choice they make, you will then know whether you are a priority in their life or not and you can decide whether you want to stay in this relationship or not.

Regardless I will take your advice on board and I do understand that to some extent I have allowed H to allow her to disrespect our relationship and I will likely have to take drastic measures and stand up for myself and show him that he also needs to stand up for himself and our relationship.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

lessthennone said:


> She sounds toxic and seems to be trying to put a wedge between you and your fiance. She doesn't respect your space. Aslo, your finance shouldn't be her shoulder to cry on. That's unhealthy.
> 
> If your husband is accusing you of making these situations going bad, she's influencing him.
> 
> I would have a major issue with this.


Yes you're right, she knows how to pull his strings. Shes also very good at using the waterworks to get her way. I never once said or did anything to make her feel like I had an issue with her and H's friendship. When she lied to me I simply wanted to make clear to her that i know she lied and its unacceptable. She then made it point to accuse me of of not being happy with their friendship and then cried to H that she was UPSET and SCARED that I would tell him to cut all ties with her.

It was actually at that point I realised how manipulative she is and then did indeed become unhappy with their friendship. 

I sometimes wish I had the brains and energy to manipulate and play games the way she does.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Catas1 said:


> Im so sorry about the length of this post!
> 
> My Husband has a lot of female friends. He has 4 very close ones. I've met them all and they're genuinely lovely and I get along with them really well. Now this other one, the 5th friend, he had not know for long... just a few months. Shes newly divorced, 27, single mum with a 4 year old daughter. I got bad vibes from her and my first impression of her wasnt very great either. We will call her sally. Im 28 and H is 35. During all this me and H were BF/GF and then engaged. Weve now had a muslim marriage ceremony.
> 
> ...


What are you, five years old? This 'friend' is a toxic good for nothing trouble maker. You tell your H to get rid of her and remover her from your life too. She sounds a little mentally disturbed imho.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

sa58 said:


> Sounds like her issues have issues.
> 
> Those vibes, trust your gut feeling.
> Rarely ever wrong.


Thank you, I needed to hear this. I always dish this advice to others but recently I've been wondering whether im being a little paranoid or if my gut instincts are in fact correct.


----------



## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

I'm one more voice chiming in to say that this woman is toxic. My wife and I both have lots of opposite sex friends, so i don't normally see that as an issue.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Most married men have a toxic friend filter.

The filter has longer hair, wears makeup, perfume, has boobs and a sharp tongue.
Oh, she wears the ring her husband put on her finger.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

How old are all of you? This all sounds very high schoolish.

You and your husband has boundary issues. After marrying, he should have let his female friendships fade into the background.

Sally is a drama queen, and if you don't like the drama, there is no reason to keep her in your life either.

Does your husband have close male friends, or only female friends? If it is the latter, he might get counseling to figure out and work on his need for female validation.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Catas1 said:


> I see, I also disagree. I do believe men and women can be just friends as long as there are boundaries that are never crossed. When boundaries are crossed it then becomes a slippery slope. See my husband is honestly the most kind, caring and selfless man I've met. But that also becomes a bad point. He goes out of his way for his friends but I'm noticing many of them wouldn't return the favour. When I discuss with him, he insists that he's just a positive person and tries to see the best in people. He hates conflict and in any situation tries to be the mediator. I would actually say that he's naive. There have been times when I've pointed out to him about one of his friends behaviour and only after me pointing it out does he realise that it was wrong and he called his friend out on it.


Interesting, if the gender roles were reveresed people posting would be calling your husband a stalker and not a friend. A few would be suggesting a restraining order except you both accept this behavior. 


The irony in your post is you calling him naive.

He's a White Knight and honestly, you are Naive.

I mean :
She has caused major fights in your relathionship. 
She has private conversation with your husband. 
She has told you out of context texts that create tension.
She has randomly shown up at each person's house.
She has told him out of context comments to create tension.
She has slept over.
She has gone out with you.
She has talked to you and immedeatly contacts him.
She has lied or misconstrued communication to the other party.


You let this go on for too long because they are friends. That's kind of naive on your part

The cute name is toxic friend. Sorry, she is not a friend of your husband or your marriage. She either wants your husband or is jealous of your happiness. Sorry, for me, there is no in between or middle ground in what you posted. When you get married, there are some friendships that must change and some that may end. 

This one needs to end.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

lucy999 said:


> Not only no, but HELL NO.


Exactly!

I only needed to read the first couple of paragraphs, then skimmed the rest. 

Yes, she's a toxic friend and yes, she wants your man. You both need to cut off from this one.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Catas1 said:


> Me and H had been dating for 2 weeks. We went were out for breakfast and he got texts from Sally saying she needs to call him but he replied I'm still out with GF so just text me. He was getting bombarded with texts and I could see he was getting irritated. H told me, 'I'm sorry about this shes going on at me saying that she did something last night which she regrets and really needs to see me'. I said oh I hope everything's okay to which he responded 'oh I bet she got drunk and slept with someone last night'. A few texts later and he says 'yep that was it and now shes making out as if it's my fault because I wasnt there for her and was busy last night'. Dont get me wrong I dont care about a girls sexual choices, it's the fact that she was trying to make him feel guilty for spending time with someone other than her. So that was my first impression of her.


I'm going to project here. My husband wouldn't have patience or interest in these kind of shenanigans. Many moons ago, he shared with me that a female colleague was starting to confide in him and another male colleague about her marital issues. I suggested he keep well-clear. He agreed, didn't want to know, and shut it down/redirected to work stuff. The other guy didn't. Fast forward a short amount of time, and my husband said he was glad he'd distanced himself as the ensuing drama had unfolded. The other guy's wife called her at the office to tell her to stop contacting her husband. It all blew-up, they did end up sleeping together, his marriage fell apart, she went back to her husband. 

As Lucy said, HELL NO. I'd be wondering why my husband was interested in that kind of attention. 
As the old adage goes, 'save the drama for your mama..' or something.


----------



## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

Sally is probably the mother of his illegitimate child and she is trying to sideline you so that so she can get his affection.

DNA test this all and drop her. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

Hi all I'm back with an update. I took into consideration all the advice I've had here which mostly reiterated what I felt to start with... that this situation is unacceptable. I feel like somewhere along the way I lost sight of my personal boundaries and what kind of things I would or would not tolerate. I had a very frank conversation with H in which he argued the point that since my falling out with Sally he has limited contact with her. I couldn't really refute this point as he actually has. He showed me his phone and I could see from messages/calls that they dont speak as much now and I knew already that they definitely dont meet as often. So I said okay I understand that he's taken a step back from her and told him that things should continue that way. But then her birthday came up in November. H asked me if I had any suggestions of what he should buy her for her bday. He says he was thinking of a £40 Harvey Nichols gift card. I told him that's way too much, as a couple we are supposed to be saving every penny for a wedding and home renovations. I suggested he should do it for £25. He didn't like my suggestion and lo and behold it turned into and argument. H was going on about how it's a matter of principle and he knows that she spent around £40 on his presents so he's now spending the same amount. I was angry at the fact that I couldn't make a sensible suggestion without him getting defensive and raising his voice. The argument escalated and at some point he mentions a few days back I was sat leaning into him and he was scrolling through his Facebook messenger, I was looking over and I thought I saw the name of someone I knew from school so I was like oh let me see who that is. But he went off messenger and locked his phone saying leave it theres too many messages in there. I didn't push it as it was no big deal. Now during the argument H says that he realized I was trying to look at his messages with Sally and that's the reason he then locked his phone and told me to leave it. I tell him no that's not the case I didn't see Sally's name on there I thought I recognized someone else's name, but even if I did why would you hide it? As I'm speaking H is scrolling through his phone... I ask him why would you try to hide her messages from me? How about you show me those messages now? He looks up and says I've just deleted them. I didn't even believe him until he showed me. This is out of character for him, I've never known him to hide any messages/conversations from me ever. Later when he was calm he apologised and said he did it out of spite to get at me not because he's hiding something. 

Now let me tell you what I think is going on. I think H lied to me in the first place about how long he's known Sally and how they got in contact again. I used to be Sally's friend on Facebook and from what I could see it was a new profile and her first posts were on 7th December. Me and H met that january after and he told me about his female friends who had known for years and he had 5 female 'best' friends and one of them was Sally. Now I dont think you can consider someone you've known for a month a best friend or so much so that you would mention her to your date. When I asked him since then about how and when they became friends again.. H told me she contacted him on Facebook messenger and that they'd probably started hanging out again since october/November, apparently he couldn't remember exactly when. Now my gut tells me that either they met before December and if they did I get the feeling they met on the same dating app that me and H did... if that's the case then that opens up a can of worms... I would have a lot of questions about this. Or if that's not the case then I think they met in december on Facebook but when H met me he made out that she's his best friend, hence him then having to cover that up and lie about having known her for longer. Maybe H was interested in her at some point, but she friend zoned him?


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

"He looks up and says I've just deleted them. I didn't even believe him until he showed me. This is out of character for him, I've never known him to hide any messages/conversations from me ever. Later when he was calm he apologised and said he did it out of spite to get at me not because he's hiding something.
"
NO he did not because he did it out of spite -- he did it to HIDE what he was doing. There was stuff there that YOU wouldn't have liked and would have outed what he is doing.

He didn't get your boundaries on this, and thinks he can just continue to do what he wants.
I think that you REALLY need to lay it out for him - tell him the consequences of what he will face if he doesn't knock off the crap. HE IS NOT supposed to be dating other women while married. He is trying to snow you and confuse you -- this is an EA at the very least if not PA.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Nothing has changed. You’ll either accept that your husband wants other women in his life or you won’t.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Catas1 said:


> I'm sorry I disagree. I see nothing wrong with having friends of the opposite sex, as long as they are healthy relationships with boundaries. Yes when boundaries are crossed of course they become a problem. I'm not desperate for a man. I met H after 5 years of being single. During this time I work hard on my insecurities & self esteem to make sure I didn't end up in a toxic relationship again. And I sure as hell dont believe in permitting / not permitting your other half to do something. To me that's controlling, A relationship is between two individuals and I would never try to control my partner. I've been on the receiving end of that, dealing with a partner's insecurities and him not allowing/ not permitting me to continue seeing friends and having a social life. I would never put a loved one through that. Having said that in a situation like mine, I believe evaluate the situation, make your feelings crystal clear to your other half (which is a problem because I've been holding back and haven't done that yet). And then you leave the choice in their hands. Depending on the choice they make, you will then know whether you are a priority in their life or not and you can decide whether you want to stay in this relationship or not.
> 
> Regardless I will take your advice on board and I do understand that to some extent I have allowed H to allow her to disrespect our relationship and I will likely have to take drastic measures and stand up for myself and show him that he also needs to stand up for himself and our relationship.




But this relationship is toxic. So she shouldn’t be kept as a friend. She is literally putting a wedge Inbetween you and your bf. 

For me, it’s not about controlling behavior or telling someone what to do... it’s about respect. You should be able to say that his friendship with her is getting in the way of your relationship with him and he should say sally isn’t worth it and end it and move on to make you happy.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Either SHE needs to be gone or YOU do. Period.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

You want to talk about a toxic relationship, you and him have one. I would rather take a honest and “controlling” man any day over a sneaky, manipulative, dishonest man hiding things from me. I would end things with him right now.

If he is being this way over a stupid girl I can’t imagine how he would be over real tough issues that life brings us all.

And don’t think you can change him. This is who he is.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

And stop calling him your husband, it cheapens the meaning.


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

It sounds to me like you need to have the "It's Either Her or Me" conversation with your husband. If my wife did this, I would never put up with it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Catas1 said:


> Hi all I'm back with an update. I took into consideration all the advice I've had here which mostly reiterated what I felt to start with... that this situation is unacceptable. I feel like somewhere along the way I lost sight of my personal boundaries and what kind of things I would or would not tolerate. I had a very frank conversation with H in which he argued the point that since my falling out with Sally he has limited contact with her. I couldn't really refute this point as he actually has. He showed me his phone and I could see from messages/calls that they dont speak as much now and I knew already that they definitely dont meet as often.
> 
> So I said okay I understand that he's taken a step back from her and told him that things should continue that way. But then her birthday came up in November. H asked me if I had any suggestions of what he should buy her for her bday. He says he was thinking of a £40 Harvey Nichols gift card. I told him that's way too much, as a couple we are supposed to be saving every penny for a wedding and home renovations. I suggested he should do it for £25. He didn't like my suggestion and lo and behold it turned into and argument. H was going on about how it's a matter of principle and he knows that she spent around £40 on his presents so he's now spending the same amount. I was angry at the fact that I couldn't make a sensible suggestion without him getting defensive and raising his voice. The argument escalated and at some point he mentions a few days back I was sat leaning into him and he was scrolling through his Facebook messenger, I was looking over and I thought I saw the name of someone I knew from school so I was like oh let me see who that is. But he went off messenger and locked his phone saying leave it theres too many messages in there. I didn't push it as it was no big deal.
> 
> ...


Just for ease of reading.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Catas1 said:


> I would actually say that he's naive.


Nope, not even close.

Why, you ask?



Catas1 said:


> .....he had an awful childhood which involved constant violence/ abuse from his dad. He was bought up by his aunt and grandma....


Sorry, from the update today it seems to me you're the other woman.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Whelp, Is he good with tech? You can get some if not all of those messages back.


Angry fights over money and a girl are never good. Also, I don’t believe their contact went down at all. He’s covering his tracks. 

Anyway, why waste your time? I understand it is hard, I broke up with a fiancé, but my life was better for it. If this is what you are fighting over before marriage, it isn’t going to get better. It is going to stay the same, which is intolerable by your own standards or get worse.

Also, before it comes up, marriage is about compromise. Still, not everything has a middle ground. My wife suggests swinging I am out, that’s not something I want to do. He wants girl friends and you see them as girlfriends, you do not need to compromise.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Why is he still talking with Sally at all? And why is he concerned about buying her a birthday gift?

He is disrespecting you by maintaining any contact with this woman. The "friendship" was dysfunctional from the get go from the first time you met her.

A huge red flag was her asking you if you minded if he had female friends. When you said "No" her response was that she would mind. The reason she would mind is because she knows that he and she are doing inappropriate things, probably sex. She was hinting to you that their relationship isn't something that you should approve of.

He deleted everything because he didn't want you to see it, since you would have proof of what is actually going on.

Believe your gut. Your instincts are telling you the truth, just like everyone here knows that things aren't what they seem just based on what you have told us.

You have to decide how miserable you are willing to live. It is almost guaranteed that if you stay with him you will continue to be miserable about his relationship with Sally, and there will be others.

He is gaslighting you, which IMO can be worse than what he is actually hiding, because gaslighting is using your own mind and trusting nature against you.

You already told him how you feel, and he lied to you and went underground with it. Now what are you going to do?


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> And stop calling him your husband, it cheapens the meaning.


She is using the letter 'H' in referring to him. She has said that they are saving/planning to get married.

*That makes 'H', her fiancee, and Sally's fancy.
*
............................................................................

'H' is no KISA, he is player. 
He wants you to think he is a pushover and nice.

Actually, he is a card shark. 
He has two women fighting over him, and liking it.

We would not be surprised if he is getting intimate with Sally.
Or, envisions that happening.

Dump this charlatan. 


THM-


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

There is a difference between being controlling and being permissive.
There is a middle ground, and you have muddled it.



THRD-


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

When being nice gets you knicked, you need to knuckle down and kick away.

Nice gals finish last, get laid flat, fast.



The Typist I-


----------



## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

IMO this relationship with Sally has been going on a long time. Someone suggested DNA test for her dd. 
Sounds reasonable, not sure how possible it is.
Im worried for you. I suspect hes a player and cheating.
There are people here who can advise you on how to find the truth.
My only concern is that you will have children and 10 years from now will find out the truth.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@Catas1, 

Did you grow up muslim? You said you have had a muslim ceremony, but you did not want your husband to get sally a gift of the same value that she gave him, and this became an argument between you. So im guessing that you did not grow up in a muslim culture, but he did?


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> And stop calling him your husband, it cheapens the meaning.


He is my husband. We were both born and bought up as muslim, we've had our Muslim marriage ceremony, we said our vows and signed the marriage contract, so what would you have me call him?


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Yeah, i would say he needs to break off contact with her...


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> @Catas1,
> 
> Did you grow up muslim? You said you have had a muslim ceremony, but you did not want your husband to get sally a gift of the same value that she gave him, and this became an argument between you. So im guessing that you did not grow up in a muslim culture, but he did?


No actually its the opposite, I grew up in a Muslim culture, he did too but only until around the age of 12. After that he never really had an adult figure in his life that followed muslim religion/culture so neither did he. 

Sorry I dont know what I'm missing here.. I dont understand how this relates to the gift buying?


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

A lot of you are suggesting he's having a physical affair. I have a few reasons to believe that he isn't having a physical affair... but an emotional affair could be possible. If thats the case then it means he's doing a real good job hiding everything from me. I mean I trusted him before but if he deleted the Facebook messages then what else is he deleting?? So I have no real proof and I dont know how I could now go about getting that proof. I already tried to see if there was a way I could retrieve his deleted facebook messages, I cant find a way that would definitely work and I would also need to have access to his phone for quite some time. Having said all of this I would prefer not to snoop, I'd rather just call him out on his behaviour and tell him why I feel hes been lying to me. But that means he could just continue lying. 

I feel like I've been so naive and I really need to think things through and try and get two steps ahead of him before I confront him.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Catas1 said:


> No actually its the opposite, I grew up in a Muslim culture, he did too but only until around the age of 12. After that he never really had an adult figure in his life that followed muslim religion/culture so neither did he.
> 
> Sorry I dont know what I'm missing here.. I dont understand how this relates to the gift buying?


I had a friend who married a muslim man from syria. He was always big on reciprocity, which she didn't really understand at first. Whenever someone gave them gifts, he felt compelled to give one back. 

He later went on to become an atheist, but he still always feels compelled get a gift for anyone who gives him one. She now knows that its just the way he was raised amd accepts it.

I was wondering if something like that was going on, but obviously not.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> I had a friend who married a muslim man from syria. He was always big on reciprocity, which she didn't really understand at first. Whenever someone gave them gifts, he felt compelled to give one back.
> 
> He later went on to become an atheist, but he still always feels compelled get a gift for anyone who gives him one. She now knows that its just the way he was raised amd accepts it.
> 
> I was wondering if something like that was going on, but obviously not.


Ah yes that's very true, I was bought up like that too. If I have the money, if I can afford it then I will reciprocate the gift to the same or similar amount. But I also understand that if I'm struggling for money then theres nothing wrong with lowering my budget for a gift. And no it's not a cultural thing for H. He's just overly generous like that. I had to explain the same thing to him when we were buying a bday present for my niece.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Catas1 said:


> He is my husband. We were both born and bought up as muslim, we've had our Muslim marriage ceremony, we said our vows and signed the marriage contract, so what would you have me call him?




It seems strange to me because you guys don’t act like your married. You guys don’t live together, and your having sleep overs with his girlfriend. It’s all strange to me.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Catas1 said:


> A lot of you are suggesting he's having a physical affair. I have a few reasons to believe that he isn't having a physical affair... but an emotional affair could be possible. If thats the case then it means he's doing a real good job hiding everything from me. I mean I trusted him before but if he deleted the Facebook messages then what else is he deleting?? So I have no real proof and I dont know how I could now go about getting that proof. I already tried to see if there was a way I could retrieve his deleted facebook messages, I cant find a way that would definitely work and I would also need to have access to his phone for quite some time. Having said all of this I would prefer not to snoop, I'd rather just call him out on his behaviour and tell him why I feel hes been lying to me. But that means he could just continue lying.
> 
> I feel like I've been so naive and I really need to think things through and try and get two steps ahead of him before I confront him.




It’s not about a physical affair, it’s his sneakynsss and dishonesty that is the problem. It’s disrespectful. 
I was married to someone like that and there was no convincing him that his behavior was wrong, these people have a way of turning everything around on you.

It’s not normal to not trust your husband. It’s kit normal to hide things from each other. It’s not normal to feel like he is doing sneaky things behind your back. It’s not normal to have to be 2 steps ahead of your husband.


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I am well acquainted with the Muslim faith and also the attached cultural nuances for different regions - Meditteranean Middle East, Gulf Middle East, North Africa, Africa, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Far East, Balkans, East Europe etc

All of them forbid friends of the opposite sex - especially if you are married.

I am not Muslim, but I do agree that opposite sex friends do not work over time. I have seen time and time again, an attraction form between the two regardless of religion or race. 

I see that you are in the UK. Nothing to do with reciprocity, he should not be buying gifts for women - period. A £40 Harvey Nics voucher should be your decision not his. If anyone buys her a gift it should be you. Deep down I am sure you know that what I am saying is true.

He should not have ANY female close friends - the two of you together can have female close friends.

You are not crazy or paranoid. He needs to put an end to his pervy, scummy behaviour.

It sounds like he is a Muslim when it suits him (and to be honest I could almost say the same for you).


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

If you are married to him by simply exchanging vows without witnesses, then, well, he likely is married to this other woman too.

If this is not tolerable to you, then, move on, end your relationship.

Personally, I think your "husband" is a player. He keeps a string of women going at the same time. He may not have been intimate with all of them, but he is working on it.

This idea that they are all just "friends" is nonsense.

I'm not totally rejecting the notion that men and women can be friends. However, the context of such friendships cannot ever be talking about sexual things.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

manfromlamancha said:


> I am well acquainted with the Muslim faith and also the attached cultural nuances for different regions - Meditteranean Middle East, Gulf Middle East, North Africa, Africa, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Far East, Balkans, East Europe etc
> 
> All of them forbid friends of the opposite sex - especially if you are married.
> 
> ...


I agree with most the points you made. And yes Islam forbids anyone from having friends of the opposite sex, whether you are married or not. Its not that we are Muslim when it suits us. We have our faith but we we're not practicing muslims. Hence I dont see an issue with having friends of the opposite sex, but I agree after marriage there has to boundaries with these sorts of friendships and they should become our friends, not just his.. which is the case with his other female friends. Just not with this one so called 'friend'.

And thank you. I feel that when it comes to buying gifts it should be a desicion we make together. If it's a gift for a female then I should be able to choose. It's just preposterous to me that he can complain about financial stress and us as a couple are going out less, buying less in order to save. But he wont think twice about spending £40 on some woman who has no respect for his wife or relationship.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

michzz said:


> If you are married to him by simply exchanging vows without witnesses, then, well, he likely is married to this other woman too.
> 
> If this is not tolerable to you, then, move on, end your relationship.
> 
> ...


No it wasnt the way you're thinking.. we were married in front of both our families and a couple of friends, had a small wedding party etc 

And no it's unlikely that he's married to this woman. I know I should keep my wits about me but I'm not going to run off with the idea that he's married to her and hat her child is his. That's ridiculous. Like I said earlier I dont believe it's a PA, it's likely that its EA. 

Also I dont see his other friendships the way you've described. I get your point. But those girls and H keeps within boundaries. Since we have been together they have taken a step back and put some respect on our relationship. Anytime we go out I'm invited without saying. Sally has issues and is toxic. Whereas his other friends come across as just normal, mature beings.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around the fact that you and your husband put up with so much to have this woman in your life. I would not let someone invade my life like that. And I would not want to be with someone who requires that I tolerate it.

I used to think as you do now. I thought men and women could be friends. But there are some people out there who do not play fair and offering them friendship without knowing what they are really interested in isn't worth the problems that they cause. /being friends with my husband is not oxygen and even if it were, I do not owe any woman that friendship.

On the other side, while dating I looked out for that kind of behavior. Is this guy I'm dating wrapped up in one or more friendships that I am going to have to bow to? With my current / second husband, I asked him to get rid of a socalled friend or else I would start dating other men. He immediately dropped her.

This woman may have already decided that you amount to nothing in her friendship with your husband.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Catas1 said:


> He is my husband. We were both born and bought up as muslim, we've had our Muslim marriage ceremony, we said our vows and signed the marriage contract, so what would you have me call him?



Are you legally married?


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Your husband is the harmful one. He is capable of respecting you and not pandering to all of these women as if he's the savior of their lives, but he chooses not to. 

That is the crux of your problem. Not Sally.


----------



## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

You both should read: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass. It's based on research of couples that experienced infidelity and the boundaries that were crossed along the way. It's an easy short read. You can pick it up used on Amazon. 

Discuss the book and how it applies to your marriage.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Catas1 said:


> No it wasnt the way you're thinking.. we were married in front of both our families and a couple of friends, had a small wedding party etc
> 
> And no it's unlikely that he's married to this woman. I know I should keep my wits about me but I'm not going to run off with the idea that he's married to her and hat her child is his. That's ridiculous. Like I said earlier I dont believe it's a PA, it's likely that its EA.
> 
> Also I dont see his other friendships the way you've described. I get your point. But those girls and H keeps within boundaries. Since we have been together they have taken a step back and put some respect on our relationship. Anytime we go out I'm invited without saying. Sally has issues and is toxic. Whereas his other friends come across as just normal, mature beings.


No, it is not ridiculous. You are right to keep your head about yourself and not rush, but don’t start putting up blinders to protect yourself or minimize your husband’s behavior.

We have multiple threads of women committing paternity fraud. 
We have multiple threads of men hiding affair children which is fraud as well.

Probably the only reason I am still married is my wife didn’t delete texts, gave me complete access to everything and was ready to take a poly. Yes, we had fights, but every time I see a story like yours I realize how lucky I am. It doesn’t prove she didn’t cheat, but it goes much further than what you typed earlier, about his anger and deleting messages, trying to keep it an EA.

Nope, I do not know what he has done. I do know, after being here for years, his actions rarely lead to just an EA.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> We have multiple threads of men hiding affair children which is fraud as well.


I once dated a guy at university who tried to reassure me that none of his ex's 3 kids were his. This was the early '80s when single parents trying to get a university degree was unheard of.

It was not a smart move since each time he mentioned that he was in touch with his ex, instead of thinking that he was being a good father, I was assuming that he was treating me as the rebound girl.

We didn't date past 6 months but it has definitely left a memory.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I asked about the marriage and made my comment because I am aware that at least some types of muslims recognize a temporary marriage. That can be dismissed easily once not needed. Even for a night.

So a man can have a 'real" wife as most recognize the role. and, still have other wives of a sort.

I'm murky on the details, obviously. But I'm wondering if your husband is slipping along the borders of technicalities here.


----------



## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

NM, the question was answered


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

"Husband, are we still in high school? No? So why are you acting like it?"


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

michzz said:


> I asked about the marriage and made my comment because I am aware that at least some types of muslims recognize a temporary marriage. That can be dismissed easily once not needed. Even for a night.
> 
> So a man can have a 'real" wife as most recognize the role. and, still have other wives of a sort.
> 
> I'm murky on the details, obviously. But I'm wondering if your husband is slipping along the borders of technicalities here.


Oh I see. No we dont believe in that kind of marriage, There's probably only a small sect of muslims that practice that. Majority dont believe that it's part of the Muslim faith. And regardless I doubt H even knows such a thing exists or would bother with that kind of thing just to get laid... if that is what he's doing.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

So now I've realised that H is speaking to Sally through the snapchat app... on which messages will just disappear, unless you save them individually. I don't even have to ask him to know he's not saving them. Only realised this morning before he went off to work. I didn't say anything... didn't know what to say or how to confront him. I think what stops me from speaking is that I just don't want to hear any excuses or bull**** stories anymore.The only way we could get through this is if he decides to just be honest with me. If I hear one more lie I'll fly into a rage... and then he will likely also fly into a rage and then we'll get nowhere. I'll probably pack up and go back to my parents home. I'm just sat contemplating all of this... dont know what I would even tell my parents.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Well, he has now shown you who is more important and it isn’t you or your marriage.

Tell them you learned you are not number one in his life.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Catas1 said:


> So now I've realised that H is speaking to Sally through the snapchat app... on which messages will just disappear, unless you save them individually. I don't even have to ask him to know he's not saving them. Only realised this morning before he went off to work. I didn't say anything... didn't know what to say or how to confront him. I think what stops me from speaking is that I just don't want to hear any excuses or bull**** stories anymore.The only way we could get through this is if he decides to just be honest with me. If I hear one more lie I'll fly into a rage... and then he will likely also fly into a rage and then we'll get nowhere. I'll probably pack up and go back to my parents home. I'm just sat contemplating all of this... dont know what I would even tell my parents.




Ah I’m so sorry your going through this! This i
Was how my exH was. Always lying, even when I caught him in a lie he still wouldn’t tell the truth. It was emotionally exhausting. I eventually gave up and didn’t care, I was too tired of the BS. That was when I knew my marriage was over. There was no convincing him anything. He did what he wanted to do, and lied to my face about it. 


I hope better for you. You deserve respect.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

There are some friends who believe that their friends are more valuable than their spouse. I agree that how well your intended gets along with the life you already have is important but that should be decided before marriage. And really, before you waste a lot of your and their time. And this goes for same sex friendships as well as opposite ones.

I have a couple of long term friends and family friends that I would not want to have to get rid of. But at the same time, I'm not on the phone with them everyday, or even week or sometimes even month. And I don't do crazy things like cancel plans with my husband for them. 

What's particularly galling about the OP's case here is that the "friend" is only someone who the spouse has known for only a short time. And that seems to happen fairly often. My exH was particularly charmed by the wife of on of his friends. his friend has only dated her for 2 years before they got married. So this was hardly a life long friend. Ditto with my husband. His "friend" he had only known a couple of months longer than her knew me. 

The way I see it, if you expect me to stop dating other men, to mesh my free time with yours and so on, then you need to keep your other friends in line or I'm looking elsewhere.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

She shows all the classic NPD, BPD traits. 

Removal from your life, or removal of yourself from theirs required.

He is falling hook line, sinker and pole.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

So I confronted him and now he is gas lighting me. Telling me that my paranoia and insecurities will drive him away and that I need help. 

How do you deal with it when someone is gas lighting you?? I need to get to the bottom of this, I have zero proof of anything.

I dont know if he is currently in any sort of affair with sally. But I'm sure that there was something going on between them not long before H met me. And he's gone and deleted the facebook messages that likely had some proof in them. And I can't retrieve them. So basically it's just his word against mine.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You very likely won’t ever find out the truth because he doesn’t feel it’s in his best interest to tell you so he’s not going to. He’s made that very clear. What you know now could be all you’ll ever know. Will that be enough? Only you can determine that.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Catas1 said:


> So I confronted him and now he is gas lighting me. Telling me that my paranoia and insecurities will drive him away and that I need help.
> 
> How do you deal with it when someone is gas lighting you?? I need to get to the bottom of this, I have zero proof of anything.
> 
> I dont know if he is currently in any sort of affair with sally. But I'm sure that there was something going on between them not long before H met me. And he's gone and deleted the facebook messages that likely had some proof in them. And I can't retrieve them. So basically it's just his word against mine.


He is lying and YOU know it. This isn’t a legal situation where you have to prove to a judge or jury what he’s doing. YOU know it and that’s enough. 
He is so desperate to keep in contact with Sally and also hide their interactions that I firmly believe that they are having an affair. 
If possible I would move out, at least for a while.Be honest if anyone asks why, he’s behaving inappropriately with another woman and lying to you about it. 
What often happens in these situations is that if you split up and he gets together with Sally they will claim nothing happened until you left him. If you tell both families why you are leaving him as soon as you leave he can’t claim to be the injured party.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> I dont know if he is currently in any sort of affair with sally.


You know what you see and experience. If he is prioritizing Sally over you, that is wrong. My mantra is that I will not be in an exclusive relationship with someone who treats other women unrelated to him better than he treats me. 

Prioritizing can be seen as in doing favors for her, ie asking friends to help her find a job; going to more expensive places when she's around; canceling plans with you for her. and man other things.

I'm glad I got that cleared up before we got married. now that I haven't worked a few years and have stage IV carcinoma of several organs, the options for me can be very slim. You have to get this settled before you get settled in life.

Unless Sally is secretly your husband's baby mama, there's no reason why that woman should be in his life. The more common friends they have, the harder it would be to get rid of her.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Andy1001 said:


> He is lying and YOU know it. This isn’t a legal situation where you have to prove to a judge or jury what he’s doing. YOU know it and that’s enough.
> I do find it interesting how people treat matters as if they are being tried in a government court. no you aren't. And you don't have the same powers to demand evidence. Even though we here agree that you should see your partner's messaging, we all know that in some places snooping even on your legal spouse can be illegal. Don't wait to the bitter end because you feel you don't have solid proof. We make decisions all the time based on inadequate information. Sometimes, that's all that you are going to get. Plus if he cared, he would be behaving in ways that make you feel safe. Not like something is missing.
> 
> He is so desperate to keep in contact with Sally and also hide their interactions that I firmly believe that they are having an affair. Me, too. but he could also just be acting out passive aggressive tendencies. ie "I'll show her." Do you really want that in a partner.
> ...


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Catas1 said:


> So basically it's just his word against mine.


No. That's not true. It's his actions against your gut feelings and common sense. 

He is being shady AF. His reasons for being shady are laughable. You are 100% right--he is gaslighting you in a major way. I'm glad you see that. Do you want a marriage based on that shaky foundation? I sure as hell wouldn't.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

In a real marriage, there are no secrets.

He is without doubt being secretive about his correspondence with another woman.

He will continue to deny your accusations and counter accuse you.

You have all the evidence you need.

Move on. Life is short. You are wasting time.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Catas1 said:


> So I confronted him and now he is gas lighting me. Telling me that my paranoia and insecurities will drive him away and that I need help.
> 
> How do you deal with it when someone is gas lighting you?? I need to get to the bottom of this, I have zero proof of anything.
> 
> I dont know if he is currently in any sort of affair with sally. But I'm sure that there was something going on between them not long before H met me. And he's gone and deleted the facebook messages that likely had some proof in them. And I can't retrieve them. So basically it's just his word against mine.


 @Catas1, 

The gaslighting technique is a way to control the moment in the relationship, to stop the conflict, to ease some anxiety and feel “in charge” again. It’s a way for someone to deflect responsibility and to tear down someone else, all the while keeping the other person hooked, especially if what they are hooked on is the desperate need to please another person — or prove that person wrong. In your specific instance, your husband is gaslighting you to stay in control of his affair and also keep you hooked--because he wants to have his cake (you) and eat it too (Sally). He knows that adultery is wrong, so he is trying to deflect responsibility from the choices he has made to you...he is committing at least emotional adultery because you are so insecure and paranoid. See how that deflects from HIM and HIS ACTIONS (and choices) to you? He's also gaslighting to tear you down and make you second-guess yourself, because if you question your own self, maybe you'll quit. 

So now that you know he is gaslighting you, let's look at the infidelity. First, I suggest that you call it what it is so that there is no nice euphamism to make it sounds better: he is committing adultery, if not physically, then at least emotionally. Second, I suggest that you strengthen in your mind what IS and IS NOT adultery. Here's why: many people sort of take the stance of "How far can I go before it crosses the line and it's infidelity?" or "Where is the line between friendship and emotional affair?" as if the idea is to go just as far as you can go but not quite cross the line. If you take that tactic, then you and your husband will obviously argue about "where the line is" and his definition of the line will move almost daily because every day he crosses more and more and more of the line because he wants the good feeling! So instead of looking at it like "How close can I get before I cross the line?" I recommend thinking of it like "What is FAITHFULNESS? What would fidelity look like? How would I define 'forsaking all others'?" Here's my definition: *"Faithfulness is giving 100% of your affection, loyalty, and companionship to your spouse."* Now, I realize that people have parents, siblings, and children whom they will love--but the love between spouses is affection that is different than the familial affection. So 100% of marital/romantic/intimate affection goes to the spouse and that means 0% is left to give to any other person, male or female! 100% of loyalty/allegiance/devotion goes to the spouse and that means 0% is left to give to any other person! And likewise 100% of companionship/togetherness/camaraderie goes to the spouse and that means 0% is left to give to any other person! 

So it's not just your word against his. Both of you made a vow, which is a sacred promise before your deity and your family and your friends that you would forsake all others (or words to that effect). That means 100% of his affection, loyalty and companionship has been promised TO YOU and to no other. He is giving some percentage of his affection to Sally because given the option of pleasing you or pleasing her, he is pleasing HER. He is giving some percentage of his loyalty to Sally because given the option of being devoted to the spouse to whom he promised it, or "a friend"...he is giving his devotion to the friend! He is giving some percentage of his companionship to Sally because he is maintaining the "friendship" at the cost of the marriage! 

So to combat his gaslighting here are some steps:

*1) Recognize what drives the behavior.* Gaslighters don’t have a strong sense of self and have to feel 'right' all the time, or else they feel threatened. Gaslighting is a way to control the moment in the relationship, to stop the conflict, to ease some anxiety and feel “in charge” again. It’s a way for someone to deflect responsibility and to tear down someone else, all the while keeping the other person hooked, especially if what they are hooked on is the desperate need to please another person — or prove that person wrong. So just remind yourself that a gaslighter is a person too, who is wounded and learned poor coping techniques--they are a fellow human being, but they are indeed gaslighting. Name it!

*2) React to their gaslighting the right way.* Remember, arguing with a gaslighter is a losing strategy. Defensive behavior is their fuel, and they'll respond to you by saying that you’re being hysterical, acting crazy, or other inflaming, frustrating statements. The more you try to defend yourself, the more they gaslight. So, instead of digging in your heels, tell your husband that while you hear him, what he's saying is not your experience. One of my favorite phrases is: "I hear that you think/feel ___ but my opinion differs greatly." In your instance, when he tells you that you are insecure and paranoid, use the phrase "I hear that you are suggesting I am not secure or not trusting, but that is not my experience and I disagree with you entirely." The end. 

*3) Don't second-guess yourself.* Gaslighting works in part by wearing you down. So be aware of when you begin to doubt what your gut tells you is true and real. It can be helpful to ask yourself the question, "What do I really believe is going on?" as opposed to "What am I being pressured to believe?” You may also find it helpful to jot down notes or keep a journal. Write down your conversation in a journal so you can take an objective look at it. Where is the conversation veering off from reality into the other person’s view? Look for signs of repeated denial of your experience. If you're second-guessing what you know deep down is reality, check in with a friend who can back you up. Ask them if you seem like yourself and do a reality check on your spouse’s behavior. Ask them to be brutally honest.

*4) Seek help if the gaslighting continues.* Individual counseling (IC) will help you determine your next steps, from working to repair the relationship to leaving it. IC can also be a confidence builder. Gaslighters will erode your self-esteem; therapy can be very helpful in rebuilding it.

*5) Get out—and don't look back.* You tried to address the behavior, but the gaslighter hasn't made an effort to change--or in your instance, you tried to address your husband's affair but he refuses to end it AND he continues to gaslight you. A marriage can not survive adultery. At this point, the only solution is to split; an emotionally abusive relationship is an unhealthy one. Unfortunately, calling it quits with a gaslighter is not easy. Often, gaslighters ramp up their behaviors when things come to an emotional head, as they so frequently do during a breakup, so just skip explanations and exhaustive conversations. You’re wasting your energy if you’re looking for them to take responsibility or acknowledge or validate anything that you’re saying. Instead, state simply, clearly, and definitively that you want to end the relationship. After the breakup...complete radio silence: block your gaslighter’s phone number, ignore calls from unknown numbers, and delete emails unread.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Catas1 said:


> So I confronted him and now he is gas lighting me. Telling me that my paranoia and insecurities will drive him away and that I need help.
> 
> How do you deal with it when someone is gas lighting you?? I need to get to the bottom of this, I have zero proof of anything.
> 
> I dont know if he is currently in any sort of affair with sally. But I'm sure that there was something going on between them not long before H met me. And he's gone and deleted the facebook messages that likely had some proof in them. And I can't retrieve them. So basically it's just his word against mine.




Do you need to prove the affair to leave him?


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> Do you need to prove the affair to leave him?


 @Catas1 it's perfectly ok if you do need concrete proof of an affair to call it quits. Some people need it, some people don't. There's no carte blanche right or wrong answer--it's whatever is right for you.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Catas1 Been there, done that! But from the position of your husband.

I had a good, safe, female friend. However, it transpired that she wasn't too good, nor was she particularly safe. She really wanted me to be a father to her twin boys.

And as I am already married, I said "no thank you!" and ran away, quick.


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

lucy999 said:


> @Catas1 it's perfectly ok if you do need concrete proof of an affair to call it quits. Some people need it, some people don't. There's no carte blanche right or wrong answer--it's whatever is right for you.


If you need definitive proof, why don't you hire a PI to check into him/her for a bit?


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

jlg07 said:


> If you need definitive proof, why don't you hire a PI to check into him/her for a bit?


Good idea. Has a VAR been discussed here? I can't recall.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

AN UPDATE..

I packed a couple of bags and came to my parents home yesterday. H contacted my older sister, he told her of what's gone on and asked if she could help. I've spoken to my sister and told her my side of the story (also a side note here) my sister met Sally once. Back in the summer I was hospitalised for a week and Sally visited me, my sister was also there. When Sally left my sisters reaction was like 'who even is this girl? I get bad vibes from her... she seems pretentious and fake'. That was her judgement without me even saying anything about Sally. 

So my point is I'm sort of glad H got my sister involved and the fact that she has met the girl and is not going in blind. After telling my sister everything, she said well H has a lot of questions that he NEEDS to give answers to. Usually my sister tries to be fair and unbiased but is also a very straight talker and will tell you when you're in the wrong. So it seems that the 3 of us will be sitting down at some point to talk this out. Possibly on wednesday.

There maybe some of you that will comment saying that a 3rd person shouldn't have to get involved. Whilst I do agree with that and I'm the kind of person that will always keep my marital issues to myself... I do find sometimes its beneficial to get someone else's perspective. Also it's the norm in my culture/community to have a 3rd person, an elder to try and mediate between a couple before they call it quits.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Catas1 said:


> AN UPDATE..
> 
> I packed a couple of bags and came to my parents home yesterday. H contacted my older sister, he told her of what's gone on and asked if she could help. I've spoken to my sister and told her my side of the story (also a side note here) my sister met Sally once. Back in the summer I was hospitalised for a week and Sally visited me, my sister was also there. When Sally left my sisters reaction was like 'who even is this girl? I get bad vibes from her... she seems pretentious and fake'. That was her judgement without me even saying anything about Sally.
> 
> ...


You’re husband is a gaslighting bully and despite your decision to leave I still get the impression that he intimidates you. So yes, it is a good idea to have your sister present and don’t let him tell you different.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

@Affaircare

Wow thank you for your post. It has really helped. I will probably keep re reading that anytime I start to doubt myself. I've been the victim of emotional abuse & gaslighting before and although you'd think I would come out stronger, I still find myself questioning and doubting myself at times... I have to keep reminding myself to shake that self doubt. 

Also what you said about what is faithfulness? For me a huge part of faithfulness is loyalty. Now let's say for examples sake there was nothing going on at all between H and Sally. When Sally lied and tried to create tension between me and H and then when called out, she shouted at me and disrespected me.. I expected H to fully stand by side, be loyal to me... show some allegiance to me. But instead he chose to tell me that I was being negative and I should forgive and forget. I know 100% if the tables were turned and that was my friend, male or female that disrespected H, we would have a HUGE falling out. 

I think this one of the things that actually hurt me the most. Even if things hadn't gotten this far and they weren't having an EA. I was not happy with them being friends.. but he tore me down and made me feel like I was bad person for not forgiving her. 

Thank you again for the tips on how to respond to a gaslighter.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

lucy999 said:


> Girl_power said:
> 
> 
> > Do you need to prove the affair to leave him?
> ...


Thank you, someone who understands that yes I do need proof. I know what I'm like as a person and I need that for me to make that final - no going back - decision. It's basically having some closure and if I dont get that I know that this will eat at me for a long time.


----------



## Catas1 (Nov 8, 2019)

lucy999 said:


> jlg07 said:
> 
> 
> > If you need definitive proof, why don't you hire a PI to check into him/her for a bit?
> ...


I definitely cant afford a PI right now. 

And no a VAR hasn't been discussed here yet, is that a recording device?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

This is not “he said, she said“ or “his word against mine.”

If someone is treating you like trash, what I or anyone thinks doesn’t matter. I understand family obligations, but you need to be right before anyone else matters. He made his choice so, you make yours and let him feel the consequences. As Andy and Lucy stated, life isn’t a courtroom and actions matter.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The problem is that you may never get definitive proof. If you don’t feel you can leave without it — and you ultimately don’t get it because it doesn’t benefit him to tell you — then you’ll need to figure out a way to live with him as is. That isn’t an easy way to spend your life but many just like you end up there.


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Catas1 said:


> I definitely cant afford a PI right now.
> 
> And no a VAR hasn't been discussed here yet, is that a recording device?


Yes a VAR is a Voice Activated recorder. You can place them in the car (hidden under the seat) or places where he may take his phone if you are around so that he can talk. Just need to be careful of how you USE the recording (they may be illegal depending on what state you live in).


----------

