# Point of no return?



## Ice Queen (Oct 11, 2013)

Hey all. I’m new here, and I’m looking for some thoughts on my situation. This is going to be long, so I apologize in advance. 

My husband and I have been married for 10 years, and were together 2 years before that. When we met, I was going through a major family trauma that really changed me, and not necessarily for the better. I was previously a lot more confident, but what I went through caused me to be withdrawn and to lack self-confidence in a way I never had. I guess you could say I was a lot more vulnerable than I ever was before. 

What drew us to each other is a common interest in a particular thing, which I won’t name because I don’t want to get too specific. Other than that, we didn’t share a common religion, morals, or even political beliefs at the time. When he proposed, I accepted on a few conditions—one being that he would attend church consistently. (He made that promise, and broke it about 5 months into the marriage. I know I was stupid for believing it, but still...) We had fun together, and he said all of the right things, and I loved him despite my family and friends telling me how wrong he was for me, so I went ahead with the marriage.

We got married and the family situation still persisted. My husband was supportive some of the time, in that he “put up” with my stress and anxiety, but not so supportive in the way he treated the people in my family who were NOT causing the problems. He and my mother didn’t get along, and frankly he was horrible to her. Even after she apologized for being difficult (mind you, she was going through the same trauma I was), he still persisted and made me feel like I was choosing her over him every time I wanted to spend a holiday with her or go see her when he didn’t want to. Even when he would go with me, he would complain nonstop and make the whole affair miserable for me. 

He also criticized me regularly—if I didn’t do things exactly like he wanted them, he would nag and harass me, and say I had to adapt to him because he has OCD (this has never been diagnosed, mind you). There were things about my personality that he didn’t like, and rather than accept them, he would complain and want me to change. And we’re talking stupid things like being outgoing in public. So I changed those things. I’m forgetful, which he hated, so I worked on that. When I tried to defend myself and thought he was being unfair, or got annoyed at something he did, I was being overly defensive according to him and shouldn’t be arguing. I was always wrong. So I started to just let his criticisms roll off my back to keep the peace. In fact, I tried hard to work on everything he complained about, to the point where I looked at myself one day and didn’t like the mousy person I had become. All while I let him be him, and tried to accept him warts and all. 

He also has turned everything into a competition—his family is better than mine. His friends are cooler than mine. He won’t spend time with my friends, but we go out with his all the time, and I go along to get along. I go spend time with my family without him usually, while I’m expected to accompany him whenever he goes to visit his, and do it with a smile on my face. Mind you, this is something I would do anyway because it’s the right thing, but I don’t get that courtesy in return.

Five years ago, we had a beautiful, amazing, wonderful little girl. I mean, she is AWESOME. Once she was born, I started running a lot more on instinct, just getting done what I needed to and making sure everything for her was what it needed to be. And my husband didn’t do as much of the work as I would have liked when she was a baby—I did 99.9% of the diaper changes, feeding, cleaning up, bathing, dressing, and it stayed that way. I still bathe her every night, help her get ready for bed, school, comb her hair, get her breakfast, make her lunch and most everything she needs. And while my husband says he’s happy to do any of that when I confront him, he rarely offers, and on the off occasion that I have to travel for my job, he not-so-subtly-or-politely hints that he wants me to get all of her lunches ready and put her clothes out for school before I leave. Mind you, he does do some of the housework (washes dishes, vacuums, yard work, does half of the work on the laundry), but I do the other half of the housework, plus all the stuff with our daughter. 

And did I mention that I’m the primary income in our household? We both work full time, but due to what I think is my husband’s arrogance, he has bounced between seven jobs in ten years and was never happy with any of them, and in three instances cost himself the positions because he couldn’t put his ego aside and defer to his higher-ups. He is now working what is essentially an entry-level job in a field with little room for advancement, which leaves me shouldering the load. This was never what I expected, nor am I happy with the pressure and expectations that come with being the main breadwinner. I support him doing what he loves to do, and money isn’t the issue—it’s the fact that I feel like this isn’t what I signed up for. He hasn’t kept one promise or goal we discussed before we married, and he expects that I’ll just be supportive because I love him no matter how many times he screws up because of his ego. 

The last few years I have felt my will to work on this slipping. About four years ago, he experienced a family trauma that left him even more negative than ever. And while I did my best to support him and be understanding, his attitude sucked all the life out of our marriage and our household in general. He goes through periods where he’s grumpy almost all of the time, and is just flat out unpleasant and a chore to be around. And when he’s in those phases, he takes it out on both me and our daughter, nagging us and making us feel like we can’t do anything right. If those times were infrequent, I might be able to overlook it, but his negativity has taken him over. It shouldn’t take a major blow up between us to make him shift his attitude, but that’s what usually has to happen, and even then it only lasts for a few weeks and it’s back to what has become the status quo. 

We also spend almost no quality time together, and when we do, he only wants to do mundane things like shopping. I can’t remember the last time he and I went out alone and actually had FUN, even when we were somewhere that should have been nothing but. But he’ll go do things with his friends that he won’t do with me, and over the summer took several fun trips without me while I stayed home and took care of our daughter. We didn’t have a family vacation. He doesn’t want to hear about my job, doesn’t want to hear about my friends or church, and doesn’t want to talk about the things I’m interested in if he’s not also interested in them. He also only shows affection beyond a quick kiss if he wants to have sex, and then says I’m the one who isn’t affectionate, even though the early part of our marriage was spent with me frustrated because he wouldn’t hold my hand in public or sit next to me on the couch when we were watching a movie. He needs his space, after all… 

The big problem, at least for our relationship, is that I have changed in the last two years as well. I’ve become more confident in myself in just about every way—started working out again and getting into shape, taking on some projects for fun that I never would have had the confidence to do five years ago, working in my church, and just generally feeling like my OLD, pre-family issues self. With that comes me just being over putting up with my husband’s issues and attitude. I’m no longer willing to be the only one who changes, and no longer willing to let him squash the life out of me. Because of that, he has gotten really uncomfortable, because he’s no longer in total control. So we argue. A lot. About the same things, over and over again. It usually begins with him criticizing me about something I think is stupid but would have previously given into, me defending myself, and then a huge blowup happening. And usually he’s not willing to wait to talk about it, but insists on arguing about it in front of our daughter, which is becoming a HUGE problem and making her extremely insecure. 

The last big blow up was a few days ago, and he finally admitted that he feels “threatened” by my new outlook. He also, however, didn’t indicate any willingness to accept the “new” (which is really the old) me. He admitted he’s jealous of my renewed confidence, and because he feels like some of our friends like me better than they do him. He says he doesn’t want me to regress back to what I was, but said that he can’t handle me pushing back at him. Which makes me think that he DOES want me to regress, and I’m not going to. I have to be myself for once instead of what he wants me to be. We talked about going to counseling, but are trying to work through it ourselves first. I’m not sure he’d really consent to going, but I don’t know at this point. 

Ultimately, it just seems like he doesn’t like me anymore, and I’m not sure I care. I no longer miss him when I’m not with him, and in fact I’m happier when he’s not around. We’re living so separately anyway that splitting up wouldn’t really affect my social life much, and I know I could live on my own without any financial distress. I also don't think he really loves me, regardless of what he says, but just loves the idea he has of me. The only thing that has stopped me from sending him away is that I was raised in and still adhere to a religion that severely frowns on divorce. I don’t even consider my daughter a reason to stay with him, because this situation is becoming unhealthy for her as well. I feel like I’ve checked out and don’t love him at all, and I don’t know if this is worth working on anymore after ten years of growing frustration. I also don't want to end up like my mother, wasting 35 years in a miserable marriage just because I'm afraid of the Big D. I'm still young enough to do some of the things in my life that I want to do, but that he keeps me from doing, and I don't want to regret my entire existence in 20 years. 

Right now, I’m just trying to get through the holidays for the sake of my little one. Then I think we really need to evaluate where we are and whether I think this is even worth saving. I just don’t know anymore. 

So I invite all of your thoughts, and thank you in advance just for reading this novel of a post.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree that you should not go back to be like you used to be. He's going to have to either change to fit better with you, or leave.

Those are the only two acceptable solutions.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You have not mentioned a single positive feature of your husband beyond his ability find employment after dismissal. Furthermore, he admits he is not good enough for you. He is not a good father either. Obviously, there is not much to discuss. You should divorce.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Ice Queen (Oct 11, 2013)

Do let me clarify a bit--he has good qualities. The problem is that the bad qualities have become his default over the years, and it usually takes a blow up between us or for our daughter to melt down for him to realize how he's acting and clean up. And then it's only temporary. The positives used to outweigh the negatives, but now I just look at him and wonder what he adds to my life.


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## LovingHearts (Sep 3, 2012)

OMG! I cannot believe your story is so similar to mine. I, too, have a 5 year old daughter (and an 18 month old son) for whom I pack lunches, do laundry, make meals, etc. I am the primary breadwinner. And I have changed (in a positive way) over the past year or two. I find myself becoming much more positive, spiritual, and just way less accepting of toxic, negative people in my life, husband included.

I know this is a really challenging time for you. You have a lot to consider. However, I will say, you sound like you really have your head screwed on right. I think you will make the right decision for you and your daughter. Sometimes we have to do what is right in the long run even if it hurts right now. If your husband is not contributing to the positive aspets in your lives, maybe it's time to move on. Honestly, I have been thinking about it for a year or more and then I started IC about 6 months ago. My counselor has helped me see that I really needed to look at what my husband was adding to our lives. Over time, I have come to see that we are not meant to be; we have totally different approaches to life and I'm not willing to say that either one is wrong. But I do think that we are not able to live together in a peaceful, healthy relationship. That said, maybe some will call me too optimistic, but I see divorce as being the impetus for us to be better parents.

My husband would never file divorce himself, or at least not until a mid-life crisis. He settles on life whereas I want to get the most out of it. I am not saying he's wrong; but we just see things differently. I feel stifled by his negativity and anger. We do NOTHING together either. We have completely different lives -- I go to work, church, see friends, etc. He stays home and plays fantasy sports on the computer.

Sorry, I didn't mean to write a novel. I just wanted you to know that you are not alone in your plight for a more positive life. And many may say I'm too optimistic about divorce. I know it will be hard and trying; but I also know I won't be settling for a man who isn't stepping up to be a great husband and father. We're not compatible anymore...and maybe never were. I settled for a poor relationship. The good stuff is that I have learned so much about myself and others, how I want to approach life, and have two amazing little ones from this whole process.

I wish you the best of luck. And I encourage you to take your time in evaluating your situation. Unless there is violence, I see no point in rushing. If you need an ear to listen, feel free to PM me.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

The question is if you went for divorce what would your husband say. I dont think he would be pleased. You dont have to put up with the way he treats you which to me sounds he is jealous of you.

It doesnt sound like he will ever improve. I suppose youre staying because of your daughter. I think you should really discuss it with your family.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Tell your husband that you want more out of him as a husband and parent or you will end up divorcing. Give him an unambiguous message. Say that he is not turning you on and he needs to do crash course in personal development.

Add that you are examining yourself as a wife and parent, too. Ask him what your shortcomings are.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

You sound like a smart, put together woman. I think the time for you all to work it our yourselves has passed. If you all cannot have a discussion without a major fight, something is wrong. I would suggest looking for a MFT and get into counseling. There you can air your dirty laundry without your daughter being around and you will have a mediator to help with the discussion.

I also agree that you should not revert to the person he wants you to be, but instead, grow into the person you are meant to be. Marriage and life are about growing. If your husband cannot see the real you and also grow himself, it might be time for a change.

Don't let the "D" cat out of the bag just yet. Once it is out, it is impossible to get back in. Use your time in counseling to evaluate whether your marriage can make the long haul.


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## Ice Queen (Oct 11, 2013)

Hey all... I wanted to stop in and give an update, and to also thank you all for taking time to read my post and reply. 

A series of misunderstandings led to another blow-up a few days ago. Basically, the crux is that I wasn't feeling well most of the day but tried not to let on, and my husband thought I was being cold to him on purpose. Instead of talking to me like a grown up, he gave me the cold shoulder for an entire afternoon, and snapped at me whenever he did say something. 

Finally we had a "discussion" (at least he waited until our daughter went to bed) which lasted into the wee hours of the morning. What this discussion revealed to me is that he really hasn't been listening to me at all for the past several months. That, or he has been hearing what he wants to and not trying to see my perspective. Either way, I think he might actually get it, finally, and he DEFINITELY knows that I am serious and on the brink of calling it quits. 

That said, he doesn't think we need counseling, and really thought that if he apologized and cried that I'd just wake up the next morning and magically be over it. I told him I have largely checked out of our marriage, and it's going to be a process and take work for me to check back in. Right now, I'm pretty much in the mindset that I'm giving him one final chance. Because of his dislike for my family, the holidays are usually stressful and contentious in my house, and his attitude has brought down many a Thanksgiving and Christmas over the years. 

So I suppose this is as much of a test as anything of whether he will do what he has promised, and stop being so negative and jealous all the time. The new year will bring changes either way, and if anyone is interested I'll come back and update after the holidays.

Thanks again for all of your helpful comments!


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## LovingHearts (Sep 3, 2012)

Good luck! This is a great time for self-reflection. It sounds like you're already on the path to this anyway. But take the time to think about your future, with you and your daughter and how he fits into the equation (as in, married or not). That is one thing that finally struck me was that it was easier to imagine my husband NOT living with me than living with me in the future. Knowing I can't keep up this farce of a relationship, I'm going to continue pursuing divorce. As my therapist said a few months back, "Just keep taking mental notes." What she meant was, notice not only what he does, but how you react to it from your gut. As an example, my husband yelled at some neighbor kids for knocking on the door to see if we wanted them to rake our leaves. That was terrible and I seriously knew that him being a part of my life was toxic. But it was a mental note I made and when I thought about all the times he'd acted like that, I realized I just can't be married to a really mean, rude person.

In any event, good luck! I wish you well on your journey.


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## Ice Queen (Oct 11, 2013)

Hey all... I'm back to update, and perhaps solicit some further commentary from you. 

Let me start off by being frank--I'm not sure what to do anymore. I really feel like I'm at a crossroads and have to make a decision soon, because I'm honestly just not comfortable or happy with how things are. Here's what has been happening since my last post...

My husband is trying... but I feel like it's only because he's insecure now, and knows I'm seriously considering ending it. It all feels so forced, and instead of giving me attention, he's doing things to get attention from me. Like, annoying things... he'll sit down next to me on the couch and put his feet on my lap (rather than putting his arm around me or holding my hand), or constantly pick at me when I'm trying to read or do something else that requires concentration, or come in the kitchen when I'm cooking and get in between me and what I'm doing. And if I say anything to discourage it, he gets his feelings hurt and sulks off. 

He also seems to think that if we have more sex, that will help the problem. But see, sex was never part of the problem. The problem is that now, in the wake of my weight loss, he is even quicker to point out how much weight he has gained (he's up about 30 lbs.), fishing for compliments and getting his feelings hurt when I don't tell him how hot he is. And let me be clear--I didn't care about the weight gain AT ALL, or even notice it really, until he started whining about it and doing things like jiggling his belly at me. And I'm supposed to... think that's sexy? 

Beyond that, he's still making snide remarks about my family, and while he's tried to stem the negativity, it still comes out. He just can't help it. Now he's talking about quitting his job again because they're restructuring his department and he doesn't like it. And he still yells at our daughter unnecessarily and obsesses over every little noise our neighbors make. 

Ultimately, as hard as I've tried, I'm just having a hard time letting the good outweigh the bad, and I just can't seem to get my head back into the marriage. I look at him and I just feel nothing--he tells me he loves me, and I feel like I'm lying when I say it back. And let me be clear--there isn't anyone else. In fact, if something does happen I don't know that I'd ever want to be married again, or even in a serious relationship. I just wonder if the years of resentment have made it impossible for me to actually fix this, and I'm flogging a dead horse. 

I also hate the thought of having to tell him it's over, because I know it will crush him. But I guess that would be the ultimate instance of not choosing my own happiness, wouldn't it? 

So that's where things are now. I'm still trying to get through the holidays, hoping that maybe I'll feel something again. I'll come back and update if I see that anyone is interested after the holidays.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Ice Queen said:


> he's doing things to get attention from me. Like, annoying things... he'll sit down next to me on the couch and put his feet on my lap (rather than putting his arm around me or holding my hand), or constantly pick at me when I'm trying to read or do something else that requires concentration, or come in the kitchen when I'm cooking and get in between me and what I'm doing. And if I say anything to discourage it, he gets his feelings hurt and sulks off.


Who has responsibility for things in your relationship? Who pays the bills? Who does the shopping? Who takes care of maintenance? Who keeps things running?


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## Ice Queen (Oct 11, 2013)

scientia said:


> Who has responsibility for things in your relationship? Who pays the bills? Who does the shopping? Who takes care of maintenance? Who keeps things running?


He has always insisted on paying the bills--he admits that's a control issue. It's another thing I acquiesced to keep peace... it does bother me that he largely controls the money when I make 3/4 of it. We split maintenance duties, I take care of any issues with utilities, do all the shopping, and keep everything with our daughter running (making sure she has what she needs for school, etc.).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

I sounds like he wants to be the big dog on campus by divine right...and doesn't feel he needs to acquiesce to anything. Of course his present behavior of being nice is sign that he is scared of losing you, but thinks just soothing your emotions will somehow change your mind...and is not at all prepared to actually get help...whether consciously, or in a veiled state of denial.

I think this is building within you a whole lot of contempt and resentment.

What is needed is your continuing to focus on regaining your sense of personal identity and boundary and to continue to speak your mind...and let him know that he has to be able to handle these tough issues that you are not going to be quiet on them anymore. It sounds like he is covering up some massive insecurity with his controlling behavior...and if he squirms and throws tantrums when you confront him...then that means he is being an emotional equivalent to a child...and he needs to get healing for whatever happened to him at that age, 'cos its time to grow up.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Ice Queen said:


> He has always insisted on paying the bills--he admits that's a control issue. It's another thing I acquiesced to keep peace... it does bother me that he largely controls the money when I make 3/4 of it. We split maintenance duties, I take care of any issues with utilities, do all the shopping, and keep everything with our daughter running (making sure she has what she needs for school, etc.).


The youngest in a family tend to crave a lot of attention and they may also avoid responsibility. This is where you are most likely to see jealousy of children (because it divides the spouse's attention).

Some small subset of people like this will seek parent/child relationships. I recall one where a man was upset because his wife stopped laying his clothes out for him which is something you don't tend to see even in teenagers unless color blindness is an issue. A parent/child marriage is where the parent partner takes primary responsibility for everything and that person is also the primary giver of affection, praise, and reassurance. The child partner tends to not take responsibility unless asked, only infrequently gives praise or support, and also tends to be more self-centered. Child partners are more likely to get upset if they don't get their way and don't tend to handle criticism very well. They tend to expect to be able to buy what they want and do what they want. They don't tend to think about a partner's feelings or consider any real balance.

This doesn't describe your husband, does it? Is there some noticeable imbalance in how the money is spent? Such as, he will make purchases for himself without telling you beforehand but you have to ask him for money?


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Ice Queen... it sounds like the guy loves you and wants to show you that he does. Admittedly, he's doing it in a way that women typically find unattractive, so I would be giving him some tips if it were him who was posting this instead of you. I'm really glad you are posting here though because I've never been able to understand this side of the situation. 

In your earliest posts, you described a situation where (among other things) you felt like he wasn't showing you that he cared, that he loved you, that he wanted to be around you, spend quality time with you, cuddle up closely with you, etc. After you got through to him about how unhappy and frustrated you have been, it sounds like he has made a ton of effort to improve in a lot of the areas you were concerned with. He seeks out your attention, wants to be more sexual with you yes, but also more tender/intimate with small touches, cuddling, etc. It sounds like he's trying to be more playful with you, have more fun with you, maybe even working on his appearance and such for you or at least trying to make you laugh maybe? But now you are annoyed by his efforts, even though it sounds like you were earlier unhappy because of the lack of those efforts?

I get the impression that by the time you posted here, you were already sort of emotionally gone. Perhaps when you revealed to him your feelings on the matter you didn't expect him to respond positively, but now that he has, you aren't sure you even want him anymore. Having been a guy in that situation, it's incredibly frustrating. I can completely understand why he might feel defeated and occasionally fish for a positive response or two, trying to figure out what he is doing wrong or what he can do right. 

Where do you both stand on the possibility of MC? Are you open to that or have you already tried it?


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