# Strong willed = bad marriage material?



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

I'm really amazed at the number of people who come here and describe themselves as strong willed, stubborn, or opinionated and regard that as a good thing. It's a bad thing! It's the very thing that stands in the way of introspection and the ability to communicate and compromise. 

Why are people proud of being stubborn? I think it's because they've learned that they eventually get their way or 'win' with that approach. The problem is they don't realize that there are repercussions for that kind of 'winning'. 

So what's with these 'strong willed' people? Are they not introspective by nature? Are they bullies by nature?

I find it perfectly natural to hold an opinion, understand an opposing opinion, and reach a compromise. I find it perfectly natural to be persistent without being a bully. I really don't get how an intelligent person could think that being 'strong willed' is an asset. 

What happens when two 'strong willed' people get married? Do they kill each other?


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I think strong willed, opinionated people are very capable of compromise and communication.

They just have to strongly hold the opinion that compromise and communication are good ideas.


----------



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Good one! Though opinionated means holding an opinion because it's YOUR opinion despite the fact that other opinions are equally valid or even more valid. There's unreasonableness in it.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> I'm really amazed at the number of people who come here and describe themselves as strong willed, stubborn, or opinionated and regard that as a good thing. It's a bad thing! It's the very thing that stands in the way of introspection and the ability to communicate and compromise.
> 
> Why are people proud of being stubborn? I think it's because they've learned that they eventually get their way or 'win' with that approach. The problem is they don't realize that there are repercussions for that kind of 'winning'.
> 
> ...


As with everything there can be extremes which make a person not so great as a partner.

I think the people who are capable of being strong willed,stubborn,and opinionated along with having the ability to step down when they're clearly wrong,compromise when it's beneficial to the health of the relationship,and say they're sorry when they've hurt someone are really great people.

It's all about balancing your traits.You can be strong willed and introspective. I am.


----------



## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

VermisciousKnid said:


> I'm really amazed at the number of people who come here and describe themselves as strong willed, stubborn, or opinionated and regard that as a good thing. It's a bad thing! It's the very thing that stands in the way of introspection and the ability to communicate and compromise.
> 
> Why are people proud of being stubborn? I think it's because they've learned that they eventually get their way or 'win' with that approach. The problem is they don't realize that there are repercussions for that kind of 'winning'.
> 
> ...



Well its really a double edged sword. If you do not stand for something that's important to you or immoral then the other party might consider it being "stubborn". My late XFIL was a man of few words but he was not shy about saying "no I will not do that". Many people called him stubborn but he was loved by many folks and was considered a man of integrity. 

Sometimes you can't compromise on your beliefs just to placate somebody. This is especially true when dealing with partners with BPD/NPD and essential in the divorce process. Compromise is such an abused creature as its basically two parties either agreeing to something they do not like or meeting in the middle and settling for less that 100% of what they original wanted.


----------



## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

No. You can have a strong willed spouse and still have a good marriage. Its when you have an uncompromising one, especially when they know they're in the wrong. Now that's when things go south.


----------



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> You are using the words as a negative, but the positive descriptors you have at the bottom of your post describe us better despite both of us readily admitting we are strong-willed. For us it means that if we come to a disagreement about something, we get a chance to use all of our finely honed persuasion skills on each other. Which is fun for us, and we do eventually reach a compromise doing so. Again, not easily though.
> 
> I needed to marry someone strong-willed and opinionated because otherwise I'd be bored. My husband and I may disagree on things (the frequency seems to vary month to month. ) but it keeps us engaged with each other and strengthens our bond when we actually hash out a compromise that suits both of us. Debate is foreplay. We have inside jokes about previous disagreements (how do you pronounce Worcestershire?) that egg us on. I like to pick apart his brain and if he always agreed with me, or he always wanted to find a compromise right away, I would get real bored real quick.
> 
> I wouldn't describe us as bullies though. I don't debate everyone. I don't even debate on Facebook.  Just the people who I'm close too, and my husband being the closest I want to come at him the most.


The dictionary definition of opinionated is a negative one in that it includes unreasonableness. Until reading it I thought that opinionated meant strongly held and forcefully defended, but that isn't right. How I got there in the first place was reading thread after thread where the partner who tends towards criticism and anger (and cant control that impulse) describes themselves as 'strong willed'. 

FF, it sounds like you and your spouse like to debate about unimportant things (or maybe everything?) What about disagreements over important things? How does that turn out?

FWIW, not having an opinion IS boring. Having an opinion but not caring to debate it - is that boring?


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> FWIW, not having an opinion IS boring. Having an opinion but not caring to debate it - is that boring?


I tend to view people who have an opinion but don't want to discuss it and try to see things how other people see it as stubborn and narrow minded.

I think discussing opinions can be healthy provided everyone involved is participating to gain a clearer understanding and broaden their perspective.If you go into a discussion with the clear intention of swaying everyone to "your side" then it's unproductive and shows you have no balance at all.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

You are so wrong and I refuse to budge from my position


----------



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> I think I'm strong-willed BECAUSE I am introspective. I spend way too much time in my head to have someone try and change too easily.


I'm like you FF. If I have an opinion it's because I put some thought into it. It's not an arbitrary choice that I gleaned on to from an acquaintance or a talk show.


----------



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

So is the person who describes themselves as 'stubborn' less likely to give a fair shake to someone else's opinion? Does their need to be 'right' or to 'win' prevent them from listening? They already know the desired outcome, why waste time on the other opinion?

Is it some kind of power dynamic rather than a personality trait?


----------



## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

VermisciousKnid said:


> So is the person who describes themselves as 'stubborn' less likely to give a fair shake to someone else's opinion? Does their need to be 'right' or to 'win' prevent them from listening? They already know the desired outcome, why waste time on the other opinion?
> 
> Is it some kind of power dynamic rather than a personality trait?


Typical marriage "compromise" equation:

(My needs/desires - your need/desires)TIME/HASSLE = Compromise


----------



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

wnycontractor said:


> Strong willed and stubborn and opinionated isnt a bad thing.
> 
> Its also called committed and principled. That is always good when you need to get thru something that sucks for the sake of the longer term.
> 
> ...


Opinionated is a bad thing if you go by the dictionary definition. And, as I stated in another reply, my question came from the observation that many people in this forum who clearly have spousal communication issues describe themselves as 'strong willed'. It's almost a code word for 'I don't listen to the other person' or 'I always do things my way'. 

Also, not every thread has to pose a specific question. I think there have been a lot of great responses about being 'opinionated' and being able to co-exist with a spouse.


----------



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't think opinionated is a bad thing.

If people weren't opinionated, there would be no discussion on TAM, for example. This thread would be one post long.

If people weren't strong-willed, well meaning posters would never be able to talk sense into new visitors to TAM that lost their way. They'd give up long before the new posters were able to really hear them.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"What happens when two 'strong willed' people get married? Do they kill each other?"


This is my husband and myself. Yes, there were times we emotionally killed each other.

I could say a lot more, but I'm fairly insulted by your views about stubborn, strong-willed people. Sorry we aren't perfect like you, I guess?


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "What happens when two 'strong willed' people get married? Do they kill each other?"
> 
> 
> This is my husband and myself. Yes, there were times we emotionally killed each other.
> ...


I think strong willed gets abused and thrown around too much to excuse bad behavior associated with words like narcissism, petulance, belligerence...

maybe that's why OP has a bad taste in their mouth about the term strong willed.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I think the OP has the wrong understanding of what "Strong Willed" is.


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

The world needs strong willed or opinionated people to get stuff done, to change the status quo or to simply provide leadership when others are too scared to do so. However, I do believe these types are at a minimum "marriage challenged". I've noticed that when two strong willed people initially get together there's usually explosive passion, but eventually it blows up on them with one party digging in and drawing a line in the sand for something they believe is their right. It's the nature of the beast and I would ask everyone if they know of any old happily married strong willed people. I don't, but that may be for other reasons.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"It's the nature of the beast and I would ask everyone if they know of any old happily married strong willed people."


Yo. Right here.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

In my marriage, us both being strong-willed means we both fiercely protect the boundaries of our marriage, and we rigidly (and happily) follow the rules we have set for each other.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I'm strong-willed and hold some strong opinions, but I'm also intelligent and know that_ some_ of my opinions are not necessarily correct / valid _all _of the time. A healthy person continues to learn throughout their lifetime, and sometimes we need to reassess some of our opinions / beliefs and make adjustments in order to progress. 

In a lot of respects, both my SO and I are very similar, but we both know that in a relationship communication, compromise and mutual respect are essential, so no blood shed here, either.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There is a big difference between the terms: strong-willed, opinionated and stubborn.

Strong-willed can mean resolute. I think that most people use it to mean resolute. 

Stubborn: “Having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, esp. in spite of good arguments or reasons...”

Opinionated means “Conceitedly assertive and dogmatic in one's opinions”. 

In order to accomplish a lot in of things that one has to in life they have to be strong-willed. I would have never accomplished what I have had I not been strong-willed. I was constantly told that a woman cannot do the things I wanted to do. I did them anyway. Not to prove that a woman could do them. I did them because I felt that was who I was, what I wanted to do and thus it was the right thing.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Enginerd said:


> The world needs strong willed or opinionated people to get stuff done, to change the status quo or to simply provide leadership when others are too scared to do so. However, I do believe these types are at a minimum "marriage challenged". I've noticed that when two strong willed people initially get together there's usually explosive passion, but eventually it blows up on them with one party digging in and drawing a line in the sand for something they believe is their right. It's the nature of the beast and I would ask everyone if they know of any old happily married strong willed people. I don't, but that may be for other reasons.


I don't think that the world needs opinionated people.

Opinionated means “Conceitedly assertive and dogmatic in one's opinions”. 

What the world needs are people who will hold to their opinion when they know that they are right. That is not the same as “Conceitedly assertive and dogmatic in one's opinions”. 

There is no conceit and dogma invovled when a person knows they are right because they have knowledge to back up their opinion.


----------



## BWBill (Jan 30, 2013)

So you are saying the best marriages are where you have two spouses who are weak willed and non-opinionated?


----------



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> "What happens when two 'strong willed' people get married? Do they kill each other?"
> 
> 
> This is my husband and myself. Yes, there were times we emotionally killed each other.
> ...


Of course I'm stirring the pot a bit. But if you follow the thread you'll see that my OP stems from an observation that some people count stubborn/opinionated/obstinate/strong willed as a positive character trait and then wonder why their spouses are fed up with communicating with them. 

If you look at stubborn/opinionated/obstinate in the dictionary you'll see that it means an unreasonable assumption that their opinion or stance is correct. The key word being 'unreasonable'. I have no problem with decisive, forceful opinions that differ with my own. I just thought it was interesting that people will say they are stubborn or strong-willed as if that's an excuse for certain behaviors. 

It's like saying you're honest to a fault so you can say something hurtful to a person 'because you're just telling the truth'.


----------



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

BWBill said:


> So you are saying the best marriages are where you have two spouses who are weak willed and non-opinionated?


Opinionated doesn't mean having an opinion. It means having a belief that your opinion is always the right one. Even in the face of reason. So you can have opinions and not be opinionated. I'm saying that the need for one's opinion to always be the 'right' or 'winning' one makes a bad spouse.


----------



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There is no conceit and dogma invovled when a person knows they are right because they have knowledge to back up their opinion.


And to bring it full circle, if a spouse doesn't communicate well enough (both my spouse and I are guilty of this) then their opinions (about the relationship) are faulty because they aren't based on fact and it doesn't matter if they describe themselves as 'strong willed' or 'stubborn' because what's the point of holding fast to a bad opinion?


----------



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There is a big difference between the terms: strong-willed, opinionated and stubborn.
> 
> Strong-willed can mean resolute. I think that most people use it to mean resolute.
> 
> ...


Strong willed in the context that you are talking about is different than what I'm talking about. I was observing how people euphemistically use 'strong willed' in the context of a relationship to mean 'always gets his/her way'. And then they express surprise that the spouse is heading for the door.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

VermisciousKnid said:


> And to bring it full circle, if a spouse doesn't communicate well enough (both my spouse and I are guilty of this) then their opinions (about the relationship) are faulty because they aren't based on fact and it doesn't matter if they describe themselves as 'strong willed' or 'stubborn' because what's the point of holding fast to a bad opinion?


:iagree:


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I don't think that the world needs opinionated people.
> 
> Opinionated means “Conceitedly assertive and dogmatic in one's opinions”.
> 
> ...



I respectfully disagree. How does a person really know when they are right? You can be considered opinionated if the world around you doesn't agree with what you are saying, but in twenty years what you were saying may become accepted as fact. This has happened throughout history. Knowledge evolves and so do opinions. I believe it's the opinionated and sometimes irrational people who dare to think out of box and end up having some of the best ideas that eventually help us. This doesn't make them good spouses, good bosses or even potential friends, but the world needs them even if their delivery was bad. I don't mind when opinionated people tell me what they think because I want to retain that right for myself even if I hate what they are saying. I don't view hearing their opinion as being harmful because its just words. *I mind when they try to tell me what to think and then proceed to create dire consequences if I don't agree.*


----------



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

tacoma said:


> I think the OP has the wrong understanding of what "Strong Willed" is.


Busted. I had a very good idea that there are two takes on a 'strong willed' person. One is a person with the determination and perseverance to stay with something that they believe in. The other is how people who steamroll their spouses in the marriage justify their behavior. "I'm strong willed." It's the way they rationalize unreasonable behavior.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Enginerd said:


> I respectfully disagree. How does a person really know when they are right? You can be considered opinionated if the world around you doesn't agree with what you are saying, but in twenty years what you were saying may become accepted as fact. This has happened throughout history. Knowledge evolves and so do opinions. I believe it's the opinionated and sometimes irrational people who dare to think out of box and end up having some of the best ideas that eventually help us. This doesn't make them good spouses, good bosses or even potential friends, but the world needs them even if their delivery was bad.
> 
> * I don't mind when opinionated people tell me what they think because I want to retain that right for myself even if I hate what they are saying. I don't view hearing their opinion as being harmful because its just words.* *I mind when they try to tell me what to think and then proceed to create dire consequences if I don't agree.*


I like this..and think this way as well. :smthumbup:

My husband would consider me strong willed... what saves me I suppose is...I am very reasonable....I will listen & weigh every side... talking it out....I've never been passive about going after what I want... I feel this is a temperament thing even.....I'll open that conversation up...so we can do some brainstorming together...

This doesn't mean I knock him down with it's... "my way or the highway"... I want resolve...and I want Peace... Love is not LOVE if it is "forced"- demanded in any way, it has to be a freely given expression of the heart...

Although we all have our own ways of viewing life, love, how a family thrives....It's important to find another who views these similar to ourselves ...this can avoid many hardships down the road....I've always always always enjoyed Hearing, seeking others opinions...keeps me learning, and growing....

Not a day goes by that I am not seeking how my husband feels /thinks/ his ideas in a matter....what he wants, what brings HIM happiness...And he cares on my end as well...this feeds us both emotionally. 

I asked him once what HE feels is the #1 marriage problem today.......his answer was >>

"*Stubbornness... people don't want to admit they are wrong, so they hold on to it waiting for the other to cave 1st*"... this is where communication stops.... it's important to be humble with our spouses, admit our faults before them... apologize when we mess up, putting ourselves out there... often this warms their heart to us...then they take their turn admitting where they missed it... a coming together again.... Take this away, marriage will be much colder...stealing it's .


----------



## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

VermisciousKnid said:


> I'm really amazed at the number of people who come here and describe themselves as strong willed, stubborn, or opinionated and regard that as a good thing. It's a bad thing! It's the very thing that stands in the way of introspection and the ability to communicate and compromise.
> 
> Why are people proud of being stubborn? I think it's because they've learned that they eventually get their way or 'win' with that approach. The problem is they don't realize that there are repercussions for that kind of 'winning'.
> 
> ...


I agree 10000% my wife and I are both extrememly flexible and our biggest arguement deciding who get's to decide date night cause we always want the other one to get what they want.

My Sister in Law is as you describe in everything and she drives me nuts. From enviromentally friendly, sleep schedules, planning dinners, chore duties, travelling, ultra rigid, always has to input her .02 on any topic, I have no clue how she is married.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

For whatever reason, John Maynard Keynes seems to be in the new so I cut and pasted this:



John Maynard Keynes > Quotes > Quotable Quote


“When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?” 

― John Maynard Keynes 

It seems he has said a fair few wise things, IMO:

John Maynard Keynes Quotes (Author of The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money)


----------



## Thehusband2 (Aug 25, 2011)

i hear what you are saying...

its a combo i think

my wife is very strong willed, stubborn and doesnt communicate well.
she is never wrong or makes a mistake, never admits to it, and if there is a fight the argument involves her talking over me, attaching to one detail, fuming, then saying she doesnt wanna talk about it, and if the talking persists she leaves slamming door...

hell!


----------



## Thehusband2 (Aug 25, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> "*Stubbornness... people don't want to admit they are wrong, so they hold on to it waiting for the other to cave 1st*"... this is where communication stops.... it's important to be humble with our spouses, admit our faults before them... apologize when we mess up, putting ourselves out there... often this warms their heart to us...then they take their turn admitting where they missed it... a coming together again.... Take this away, marriage will be much colder...stealing it's .


^^this


----------



## Viseral (Feb 25, 2011)

Western culture, and more so the USA, values extroversion, and being opinionated and strong willed. The commonly held perception is that if you're not extroverted, opinionated, and vocal that you're somehow weak.

Eastern culture values introversion, introspection, inner strength, and only being vocal when necessary. Being loud and boisterous is viewed as offensive.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Stubbornness has contributed to both the success of my marriage as well as our seperation and impending divorce. The earlier years of my relationship was fueled by our commitment to make it work, we overcame all obstacles and brought our awesome daughter to this world. We were a team, and nothing could stop us. STBX was very strong-willed in her principles, and throughout the years she has proven to be trustworthy and loyal. We were impossible to break, we stuck with each other no matter what.

The later years of our relationship, including marriage however, led to us fighting each other instead of fighting the forces that would split us apart. We were no longer a team, and we broke each other. Our relationship became toxic, it truly is a double edged sword and we wielded it against each other. Now, we're done.

Stubbornness by itself isn't a flaw, and yes I would still consider it an asset. The decision whether to be strong FOR each other or strong AGAINST each other however - that's the kicker and it's what determines whether the marriage can work or not.


----------



## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

A lot of this is semantics. What is meant by strong-willed, stubborn, opinionated.

Strong-willed can just mean being determined to achieve a particular goal despite obstacles (e.g. pass exams despite difficulties with having to work to finance the study course).

However, on a more substantial point I have, throughout my life, known some very successful people who have got extremely high up in Government and business. These have always been very strong-willed individuals not only in showing perseverence but also determination to get their way. Usually they have been right to show this determination because they are people of very good intellect who are normally right in their judgements (not invariably but we are all human). Where they have been happily married I have observed, though, that they have married someone a whole lot more flexible. It is very difficult to have a marriage between two people both of whom are used to getting their own way virtually the whole time and expect that to continue.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

If someone describes themselves as strong willed I think you should run. Why do I say this? Because most of the people I've met that vocally proclaim to be strong willed or stubborn use it as an excuse to treat other people like crap and walk all over them. 

Using one of my wife's best friends as an example she has had trouble finding a good man for years because she is a "strong black woman" and men just can't take it. For the past fifteen years I've met a lot of her boyfriends and some of them were pretty good catches, but she chased them all away. She wants me to introduce her to my friends but I can't because I know the end result would be the same until she changes.

I think people who are strong willed and self assured don't need to go around proclaiming it all the time. If they do I would steer clear of them as spouse material.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

My oldest child is the most strong willed demanding person I met. I hope she changes since she's already reached adulthood. I can't imagine she'd make a good wife at this time. I do absolutely love my daughter, but this is who she is. She needs to be less demanding.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I am strong willed, opinionated, but also sensitive, extremely introspective and extraordinarily communicative. I do not bully my wife or anyone in my life. I am actually quite the antithesis of a bully.

My wife is pliant, isn't opinionated at all, is introspective, extremely sensitive, far more than me, and extraordinarily communicative, more so than me now. 

We work very well.


----------

