# 15 years and now what? It dawns to me I had been misleading myself all this time.



## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Hello,

I have been reading a lot on this forum lately along with a lot of other stuff on the net.
Why? ecause I am at the end of my rope. I do not know where I stand and what is right or wrong, whether I am falling prey to a twisted logic or am I right in the end? I am looking for some - for lack of a better wod - enlightment:

I have been married for 15 zear now. I met my wife back in 1998, we chatted on the Internet and one thing led to another. She pursuaded me with sex (I believe I better be honest, otherwise everything else ispointless). I fell for her - at least that's what I thought than. Her 7 year old daughter asked if I would like to be her dad. About half a year into this I was thinking about quitting but then - (presumably) by accident - she became pregnant. 
IN 1999 our son was born and in 2000 we married. 
Everything seemed fine and in 2001 we got another boy.
We moved around twice because I was an officer in the air force.

But with time I found that my level of happiness seemed to be drifting away. I focused on the bright days and the joy we had. 
My wife did stayed at home which was a soucre of frustration to me but she would not want to talk about it. Unfortunatelz we could financially afford this. She moved the day to start working from kindergard to pre-school to beginning of school, finishing 1st grade and so on. Now the youngest is 8th grade.

I focused on my work and - in hintsight - got more and more emotionally detached. She stayed home, did the hose and played online games and did not do much more than that. I could not touch on this subject.

We don't have any friends, because she says she needed none and other people are always an annoyance. If I wanted to do something alone or with other people, she would become jealous of the time I spend with them, so I quit doing this.

After I left the air force she started complaining about y working hours (about 45 per week).

I never deeply reflected on but instead shoved the negative feelings aside and excused her behaviour because I know she has some psychological issues de to her past. 

Then I woke up. In May this year I hiked the Grand Canyon (I was on a business trip including a week-end) I did not tell her my exact plans and she never asked, but when I called her and said I'd be gone for 24 hours she was shocked.

So I went into the Canyon for a 40 mile hike that took 20 hours. HOnestly, I cannot really remember much of what I did there but I remember that afterwards, I was thinking a lot about my wife.

My mood good moodier and end of June I wrote her a letter explaining that she has changed because I was to weak to force out of her own psychoogical prison. I demanded that she start working, took care of the kids, learned with them, planned a night out for the two of us each week, a family outing every other week. I wanted my "old" wife back. I even suggest marriage councelling but she would not hear any of that ever.

She would not accept the letter and I became even more - well - depressed.

Then, two weeks back we had a long argument and I explained to her only one issue> She bcame upset with me because I noted that a musicain on the street played the tango from "scent of a women". She blamed me that I would thrive on showing her all the time how stupid she was.

ONe day later I was very remote and she asked if she had done something. I said yes, yesterday"s incident. She said that I must be kidding, because she had long forgotten this and the issue is settled for her. I explained to her that this may very well be the case for her, but not for me. 
This changed a lot. Now she says she understands and finally sees that I am right. She is acutally working hard to work on all the things I pointed out.

BUT: I do not think that this is enough. I only named smptoms. I started seeing a counceller alone, and after 15 minutes the counceller asked "Are you a masochist or do you suffer from helper syndrome"

I was taken aback. 

When she asked me why I was there, and I replied that I hope that things will get better again, she asked "What do you think can possibly improve here?" Another shock.

Those question ran through my mind constantly.

A friend wrote around the same time about a hike in the Spring Mountains seeing me smiling happily "You are a great man. You should also be a little happy"

So, on a plane from HOng Kong to Shanghai I made a list of pro and contra fighting for my marriage. And the list was depressing:

Pro: 
* She is kind of a part of me
* I cannot bear to break her heart
* all teh nice moments we had
* Good sex

Contra:
* My freedom
* her very low IQ which leads to lots of problems in everyday life
- she feeling lessened by her familiy"s IQ
- I have to explain things that I dont even think about (very annoying)
- There is not much to talk about than tv series, local poitics and gossip
* I want to meet people
* she has a mindset of the 50's, I am a very progressive person
* I do not want to spend another 50 years with her
* she always considers what our neighbors/others would say
* sooner or later she will hold the current phase of our marriage against me
* I do not think she understands what I am, what is driving me, why * I thnk the way I think
* very often deals in absolutes, little tolerance owards others
* very often does finish not see things through
* I can't watch all the movies I want because she always complains about violence or sex in movies even though it is bringing the story further

I scored all contras like that: 
0 + absolutely inacceptable
10 = the level that would be perfect for me

Her current score averages 1.6.
Even with a very positive midnset that she can change, she only ends up at 2.9 after all *some things just won't change)

And I do not think I love her, and I am sure I never really loved her.
Currently, when she answers something I usally thikn "why would I care? Screw you! Just get lost! etc."
When she threatened to quit a few weeks back I thought, "yeah, I dont give a damn."
Seeing this, I am afraid the counceller is right: there is nothing to save.
But can I value my personal wel being higher than that of my wife and the promise I gave?
Did I miss anything?
Should I be so egoistic to just go away and pursue my own happiness?
Or can I&we still mend this?

I really do not know?

Thanks to everyone who actually read this 
I appreciate any comments!

REgards
asdfjkl

tldr: I don't love my wife, I feel miserable and I don't think this can be improved. Is it okay to just let go and quit?


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

asdfjkl said:


> I scored all contras like that:
> 0 + absolutely inacceptable
> 10 = the level that would be perfect for me
> 
> ...


:surprise:


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Does this mean:

A) Oh my God, you actually applied a score to your feelings
Or
B) Oh, that's hopeless! Just leave.

Regards

Asdfjkl


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you had no kids at home, I'd say go ahead and divorce her. But since you do, my advice is to first TRY to see if there's anything worth fixing. Read the book His Needs Her Needs. Read the important parts out loud to her. It directly correlates to your marriage and why it tanked.

Come up with something you like to do, and start doing it - basketball, baseball, boxing, whatever. Get a hobby, join a group for it, and start enjoying that part of your life. If she doesn't like it, tough. 

Keep going to therapy and tell your wife if she won't go with you, you'll start making long-range plans for divorce (like maybe next summer).

Start making friends, hopefully in your neighborhood. And I'm talking MALE friends, not female. You are in no condition to be around another woman; you WILL get in an affair in your state. And that will ruin your kids more than you. Start having your friends come over; let your wife see you starting to have a life. She has to see what she's going to be losing.

Arrange for a babysitter and start setting up one date night at least every two weeks. If she refuses to go with you, you go out anyway. Be consistent. Every two weeks. Let her experience being alone; come home and tell her what you did, where you went, how much fun you had.

Fill out the Love Buster questionnaire that you'll learn about in His Needs Her Needs, which show her the things SHE does that make you unhappy. She may need to see it written down to understand it. Hand it to her and tell her this is what I need from you to be willing to stay married - stop doing these things.

Then fill out the Emotional Needs questionnaire. Hand it to her. Tell her I need THESE top Emotional Needs to be met by you, my partner. If you're unwilling to meet these needs, I'll continue to prepare for divorce so I can meet someone who WILL. 

Then tell her that you're more than willing to have her fill out the two questionnaires too, and you'll pay attention to what about you is making her unhappy and what needs she has that you should be meeting.

Finally, start having a State of the Marriage meeting, at least once a month, where the two of you sit down and talk honestly about how things are going, what needs to change. Do NOT make it a b*tchfest or she won't participate. Listen to her side. Be honest and see if there are things YOU are doing that you could change.

Do all these things, simple low-key things, and you should see your marriage turn around by next summer.

By the way, you haven't happened to meet some other woman, have you?


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Thanks.
The kids are 14, 16 and 24. So no need for a babysitter.

I have not seen other women. That thought never crossed my mind. The counceller was surprised but an affair is not acceptable for me because I am married .


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm just asking because many people will plod along until they meet someone who sparks their interest, or who simply shows an interest in them, and suddenly, your brain is going 'wait, what about me?!' You don't even have to be having an affair; it could just be that someone at work started smiling at you or something. That's how the brain works.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

I Understand your point. There is a woman at work who may have accelerated things but I noticed her on a personal level only in August, that's three months after my Grand Canyon hike.

The - I think - fact is that I so not love my wife and never had
I wNted to quit after six months but then my son came.
I could paint everything I'm bright colors some for a few years even think of a second child. But it was doomed from the start.

It is now t3:22 a.m. And I lie awake not knowing wha to do because in six hours I will fly home after a one week business trip. I enkodier the trip, did a lot for myself.

But now it is going home. In 21 hours I need to make a happy appearance and kid my wife. I'm 24 hours she expects to sleep with me. She told me already she can't wait to f***.
Only problem: Inhave no desire to sleep with her but I can't turn hr down. I did this for two days two weeks back but her reaction and despair had been horrible. 
And unfortunately, after a few minutes I start to enjoy the act (Inguess men are cursed in this respect) and Inhate myself for being so weak.

The whole situation is terrible and I am just lost in my never ending circle of thoughts.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IIWY, I would call right now (and schedule an appointment with a therapist for you and your wife, call an emergency, and have it waiting for you as soon as you get back. Or at least the next day, and tell her you have an appointment set up for the day after you get back and things will have to be on hold until then, because the marriage is in crisis. Just be honest with her.

But I have to tell you, your response is disappointing. It's pretty clear you have already decided you can do better than your wife and you're just asking for permission. We get a lot of guys like you - can't wait to get out there and taste the other 30 flavors. I gave you a COMPLETELY reasonable path to putting in some educated work on your marriage to see if it's worth saving, over a reasonable period of time, but you have got FREEDOM/SEX so firmly implanted on your brain that it is overpowering everything else in your mind. You are acting EXACTLY like someone in an affair; you're even giving us/her the ILYBINILWY speech. So I have to tell you that (1) I don't believe that some random woman randomly talked to you and nothing else happened, and (2) nobody is going to be able to give you the advice you're looking for because all you want is to run and nobody's going to advocate that without you at least addressing the issues.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

maybe I did not express myself clearly.
I did not discard your suggestions.
I do not care about sex. That is one dilemma.
My wife refuses therapy.
Yes, I do believe I am better off alone but I am not sure if this is a path I can go own without feeling guilty forever. That is a classical dilemma.

The woman is not random, she's a director at work (I am a director as well) and I noticed her on a personal level when she wished me a great vacation via e-mail. No colleague has ever done this. Up until two weeks later we had still not been on a first name bases but rather formal at Mr /Mrs (I am in Germany).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Makes no difference. You now think you can do better. I'm not discounting the possibility that you have never wanted to be married to her. I often feel that way about my H, because of all my unhappiness. But the truth is, it was NOT always that way. If you were THAT opposed to being married to her, unless you've got some sort of severe dysfunction that keeps you from having a brain of your own, you DID want to be married to her. But NOW, you are saying you never did. That's Affair Fog talking. That's Grass Is Greener talk. Look it up.

You say you didn't discard my suggestions, yet it sounds like you're going to go home and lie to her (pretend to want to have sex with her, etc.). 

If you're considering the plan, you're considering going home and telling her the truth and saying 'what are WE going to do about it.'


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Thank you.
I thought about what the your posts and guess what, you are right in one point:
I desperately want someone to tell me that leaving is okay or eve the right thing to do. Understanding this once again shows me that my future will most likely be brighter alone.

I do not have an affair nor am I planning on one. I am just tired of warping myself and my beliefs to accommodate the needs of my wife.

I sincerely mean this: thank you for helping me understand my situation better and thank you for fighting hard to convince me that Inshould try to mend everything.

I will need a few days/weeks to finally make up my mind but I believe it is: Game over, man. Game over!

That's sad, but true.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So...you're not even going to TRY to improve your marriage? Won't even read a book? Fill out a questionnaire? Read your wife's questionnaire? Go on a few dates with her? NOTHING?

smh


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

I am going on dates with her.
No, I will not fill out questionnaires. 
The thing is that a marriage should be based on similar. Alues. She thinks a woman 's place is the kitchen. Equal rights are stupid etc. there is almost no overlap. 
Her intelligence is breathtakingly low which I never wanted to admit. But it drives me nuts. she has a few grammar problems which she did not even remotely improve during the last 15 years. That rives me crazy.
I can't talk about politics or science with her because it is beyond comprehension for her. Shall I keep babbling about Grey's Anatomy for the rest of my life?

I don't want this and I know it's not her fault. I do not blame her, I have no hard feelings against her. She is currently doing everything there is but it can never be enough because of her limitations. 

That is breaking my heart but I cannot change that. And after all I only have this life and I want to be happy again. In the end it is my fault because I am no monte willing to cut down my needs to make room for hers.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Just to clarify the grammar part. English is a foreign ambushed for me. I am a German., hence my mistakes (using a phone to type does not help either)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, I get it. I'm not going to browbeat you about it. It's obvious you want out, period. So I'm going to backtrack and tell you this advice: do NOT go on dates with her. Do NOT give her any false hope, do not try to make her think if she just does this or that, you might stay married. Just go home and tell her you've decided to divorce, you've been unhappy for too long, and you can't keep pretending. 

This is the 'integrity' way to do this. The way that will cause less confusion and less pain for her AND for your kids. Offer to go to therapy with her so you can explain in front of a professional why you're doing this and why there's simply nothing to save. The therapist can then go on to help your wife with having her life cave out from under her. This is one of those 'rip the bandaid off' things, ok?

And finally, since you 'say' there's nobody else, please please please don't date any other woman until you are officially divorced. That's a gift you can give the woman whose life you're ripping apart and especially for the kids so they don't develop severe issues from watching you run to other women under questionable circumstances. (and I say that from personal experience)

fwiw, my brother refused to date anyone until he was officially divorced, and you'd be surprised how many women therefore were crazy about him - morals and all - for not dating until it was 'legal.' And waiting for him.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

It is unfortunate that you didn't do all this "reflecting" before you had kids with her, married her, spent a long time with her (instead of letting her find someone else who actually loves her) etc.


So you think your wife and the mother of your children is "below" you. What do you think your kids would say if you told them this ? Would they think you are right and deserve to follow your "dream" or would they think that you are an a$$?


I must say that I would tend to believe that you are a bit of an a$$ for the way you have treated her and tried to convince us all that you are a good man who likes having sex with your wife because she is hot but also thinks that she is too stupid to be married to.


And I would say divorce her - not for your well being but for hers, recognise that you have been a bit of an a$$ and start working on improving yourself because you need a lot of work. And make sure you give her a really, really favourable divorce.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Well, I don't think she is below me. I stated that the intellectual difference is too much for eight of us. She is frustrated because she can't follow the discussions with the kids and Inam frustrated because of that and because Inhave to explain a lot of stuff that should be obvious.

I always encouraged her to mark something new but she would say that she could not learn anything any more.

I stated that it is she who wants to sleep with me, not the other way fond.i

I know tha my rasons are selfish.

I know I can' tell the kids the intellect issue. And I do not know
how to tell her.

I have no envy to date anyone for the time being.

I jus want to live a life, my life.

P.S. I did not try to convince anybody that I am a nice guy. I tried to recount everything as objectively as possible. I know I made a wrong turn 15 years ago and no it is time for me to pay the pric.

I m just not yet ready to accept that.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Is your wife from a different country/culture?

Maybe because of your work locations/hours etc she was forced to take up the role of 'housewife', now that the role is almost fulfilled, kids are bigger you expect her to be something else. That sounds a little unfair as she doesn't have a springboard as such.
Many women land in this role, then suddenly when the kids are almost gone, they are expected to start careers, be exciting, spend more time in intellectual and other pursuits with their well meaning husbands only to find themselves floundering because their hands have been tied all along and who they were is suddenly not good enough. They have sacrificed, education, careers, interests, etc for the good of the family.
Meanwhile their husbands have sailed along benefiting in their careers by having a woman at their back who does everything for them so they can focus on their work/career.

I believe you have to take a step back and look at what you are actually saying. If she was good enough for 15 years, what suddenly changed. It sounds like you are lying to yourself about this and the lady director in the office has much more influence on your irrational thinking than you would care to admit? You kids love her? You obviously at one point loved her?


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

We are both from Germany, so there is no cultural difference.

She did not want to work for some reason I do not understand and which she never explained. The subject always led to fights.

Stepping back and asking what did change I did. The answer is that I have opened my eyes. I had been ignoring the differences, denying the problems and just been focussing on the nice things.

Now I am trying to determine whether I am overreacting on the revelation that I had been blind for 10 years or so or if I really am right in my assessment of the situation.

Unfortunately, finding this out is very difficult.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Since you're new to this realization, I suggest you slow down and do nothing for right now. Give yourself time to think about it, feel it, understand it, before you make any rash decisions you can't take back.

That said, being able to walk away gives you a huge advantage, in that you can say to her you're considering leaving and to even consider staying, A, B, and C would have to change. And then leave it in her lap as to whether she's willing to do any of that. 

That would be much more honorable than just leaving.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Its amazing how pompous progressives can be. Your family, hell, everybodies family deserves a better man than you.

My prediction for you is that you are going to regret this course of action to your dying day. Of course that assumes you have any conscience left.

Reading the threads in this forum, the vast majority of men would love a wife like yours.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Is this correct? You married her because she was pregnant. She married you for security and to be a father to her daughter. Love may or may not have played a part. Now you are now "waking up" and want out. She, on the other hand, is happy with the way things are. 

No one can stop you if you want a divorce. It will devastate her and your children but it's ultimately your choice. I hope you plan to make sure she's financially taken care of as you transition to your new life. She may not be what you want (and she may not have been what you wanted back in the day) but she is who you chose. And you owe it to her.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

@chaparell

I am not sure what I did to give this impression.
It may very well be that most men would love to have my wife. Unfortunately I believe I feel different.
@turnera
I am not hasting into anything since I know this decision will deeply impact the rest of my life. I have been pondering this for five months now with more and more understanding - but also more and more confusion. Basically, my world did also collapse but at least I am seeing this clearly. 
@Openminded
Of course I will not ruin her financially. As I hope I made clear there are no hard feelings against her, no haitred or anything. Just nothing.
I will let her live in our house for free until the kids are in university, I will pay the allowance and I won't fight about that.
Due to this I will have very little money for the next years but that's the way it would be if things turn out the way they seem to be turning.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

asdfjkl said:


> We are both from Germany, so there is no cultural difference.
> 
> She did not want to work for some reason I do not understand and which she never explained. The subject always led to fights.
> 
> ...


We all change when we meet a certain stage in life, ourselves at 20 are very different from ourselves at 50. However, that does not mean we throw in everything and decide to head of into the blue yonder you may end up finding freedom only for a while.

I would suggest you go to IC to explore what exactly it is you want from your life. The fact remains only you can change, only you can make yourself happy, it has nothing to do with your poor unsuspecting wife. You seem to be placing a lot of the burden on your W and blaming her limitations for your unhappiness. Perhaps your should look at yourself first and see what you can do to become a better person. Your fulfillment should come from within yourself not her. You might even ask your wife to do the same thing at some point but you need to sort out your own head first before throwing away your marriage and your family, because it will damage your family irrevocably.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

What is IC?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Individual Counseling.


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

All of your comments concern how your decision to leave your family (the wife and children you CHOSE) will effect YOU. 

It would be nice if you were able to take the othe 4 people into consideration but that seems unlikely.

BTW, you have a wife who really enjoys sex, which seems to be a rarity around here. Have you considered exactly who will fill her needs when you have abandoned her ? Who she will bring around your children and into the house you are paying for?


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

It is a good thing when parents can fulfill their responsibilies, and delay their own wants, until their kids are out on their own. 

Are you so selfish that you cannot wait 3 more years for the youngest to be grown?


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Cara said:


> All of your comments concern how your decision to leave your family (the wife and children you CHOSE) will effect YOU.


Of course it is about how it affects me. I have to find out what I want before I can decide if it is worth the price.


Cara said:


> It would be nice if you were able to take the othe 4 people into consideration but that seems unlikely.


I do consider those, but that is not what I wish to discuss here because it is pretty much straight forward. If I leave, they will suffer. If I stay they will suffer a bit less.



Cara said:


> BTW, you have a wife who really enjoys sex, which seems to be a rarity around here. Have you considered exactly who will fill her needs when you have abandoned her ? Who she will bring around your children and into the house you are paying for?


[/QUOTE]
Why would I need to be concerned about that? She may or may not find someone. This is not up to me because it is her decision. I trust her that if she finds someone he will be okay.



Cara said:


> It is a good thing when parents can fulfill their responsibilies, and delay their own wants, until their kids are out on their own.
> 
> Are you so selfish that you cannot wait 3 more years for the youngest to be grown?


It takes another five year utnil the youngest has finished school. Besides, according to my conceller, the kids already suffer because they sense that something is wrong.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

asdfjkl said:


> I do consider those, but that is not what I wish to discuss here because it is pretty much straight forward. If I leave, they will suffer. If I stay they will suffer a bit less.


Well, there you go, then. To be a man your parents would be proud of, you stay. Because when you have children, their best interests should always trump yours. To be a man who everyone remembers as a selfish jerk who cared about himself more than his own kids, walk away.



asdfjkl said:


> Besides, according to my conceller, the kids already suffer because they sense that something is wrong.


Your counselor is being paid by YOU, so he's focusing on what makes YOU happy.

Not on what makes you a real man.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

turnera said:


> Well, there you go, then. To be a man your parents would be proud of, you stay. Because when you have children, their best interests should always trump yours. To be a man who everyone remembers as a selfish jerk who cared about himself more than his own kids, walk away.


That is exactly why I am so insecure. The expectations of society tend to view everything in categories. Special circumstances do not count because it is too tedious to consider them.

And the key is: Do I want to be happy or do I want to stay miserable and hope that my parents will be proud of me?



turnera said:


> Your counselor is being paid by YOU, so he's focusing on what makes YOU happy.
> 
> Not on what makes you a real man.


My conceller is not paid by me. Councelling is for free as is normal here.


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

Really? "Expectations of society"? 

Actually, doing right by your kids is basic human decency, not something invented to get in the way of what you "waaaaaaant".


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

meh

You've already decided what you want. Just go do it.


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## asdfjkl (Sep 26, 2015)

Thanks for taking apart my reasoning. That was very helpful. I understand myself better now.

Regards

asdfjkl


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## Cara (Aug 15, 2010)

Always glad to help!


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