# After 5 nights of again 4hrs of sleep, I've never seen my wife like this



## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

For a bit of context on what my wife is like, refer to my last post from some time ago.

It's been 4 days and my wife continues to spew anger hate and rage at me for something I didn't do. As in I didn't say yes to something she wanted.

Normally these things blow over after one night of no sleep. After almost 2 years of marriage this is different. She just said herself that she fears for our marriage now.

My wife had wanted a third child for maybe 4 months now. We have a 6 month old plus my stepdaughter who is 6 years old. I'm 22, my wife is a year younger.

Having our recent was simple because I was in the military. I'm out now with a blooming career, solid finances, bills not a 
burden etc . With the occasional medical bills steadily being taken care of.

There's several reasons why my wife wants a child now or never. Waiting 2-3 years is too long for her. Honestly she's close to giving up from what she just told me.
1.) She wants to pursue a new career in photography. If we wait any longer, it'd prolong that and she wouldn't want to start just to put it on hold for kids. Even though she desperately wanted kids.

I've suggested switching roles. I work remote from home and stay at home because I am well aware of the idea that someone has to stay home with the kids. Especially if my wife refuses daycare or a babysitter.

2.) She wants to travel to other countries. She wants to get children over with early in order to save soon and travel.
3.) Her hair is falling out. She doesn't want it to grow back just for it to potentially fall out again after another baby.
4.) She wants anxiety treatment. But not if she'd have to put it on hold once pregnant.
5.) Wants to get children out of the way early to allow her to do the things she wants.

My issue with trying again so soon: finances. I've explained to her and have drawn out our financial situation. She saw the numbers on the paper essentially go negative.

This was explained months ago. To this day she does not understand. She says, "we'll always have medical bills."

With our situation now, bills are manageable and my credit is in good standing. We're able to get by pretty well for a family of 4 renting a house. She assumes this means we're able to get by pretty good for a family of 5 renting a house, all expenses included.

Recently she explained to her mother her situation. Her parents being the kind and amazing individuals they are see it both ways. They like that I am wanting to be best prepared for something like this. But they understand my wife wants to do things in life. (again I suggest switching roles as I don't mind the fact that I must sacrifice in order to have a family, i.e. stay home with the kids.)

The solution her mother gave her was that she'd help with money, essentially paying off everything I am responsible for. With much respect and gratitude, I couldn't possibly. Having been raised by my parents whom I've seen work harder than anyone else in life, raising my sister and I all on their own from scratch, I have never been the type to accept from others. Only in inevitable situations such as gift giving.

My decision has sparked a fire in my wife. She's completely changed. She's been upset and angry with me ever since. She's said things I've never heard her say. "**** you, I'm glad I'm never having kids with you again." "I'm getting my tubes tied because we're never having anymore children."

More cussing, degrading, belittling, nasty, cruel comments ensued. It made me feel as though I should feel guilty for who I am as a person. This kind of walking on eggshells triggered a 2-day long migraine which I endured every night until 1am to listen to my wife repeat herself and deteriorate my mind some more.

We figured things would pass. Today she's proven to feel different about me. She usually wants me to get home early all the time and is happy. Today she didn't care. Those were her literal words. She doesn't want to be around me, she doesn't care if I got home, she doesn't want to speak to me, she doesn't see me as the same person.

All the while she thinks I don't care or support her views. Keep in mind I've given her everything she's asked in life up to this point. All of that is apparently garbage because I simply can not have others pay for my child. 

I've been independent since 18, this is no pride that I speak of. We are adults and we can take care of ourselves as adults. I've been the sole provider and have given us a smooth transition from the military to the civilian sector. This means that we'll be more than ready to provide for a third in a couple of years with a higher salary, different jobs perhaps.

But that'd be too late for her. Age 24+ is too late for everything from her perspective. She stands by it.

This might all seem like a bicker to the audience. But since I've been with my wife my emotional and mental well being has been affected by her behavior. My character has changed since we've first met. Not in the good way that one would expect.

I'm happy with my children and I love them to death. My wife has caused me to feel somewhat numb at this point. I'm not sure what to think or say in response to her anymore.

I feel like a drone most of the days. I've accomplished much professionally since our marriage but I have never received the opportunity to cherish it or feel truly happy about it because of her reactions to my career.

Counseling is out the window for us as a couple. It's been brought up (by me) and shot down by her every time. We almost went through with it but ended up agreeing we should deal with her anxiety treatment first. Which is blocked by her wanting a third child.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Some things you've done wrong:

"I've given her everything in life she's asked up to this point". 

You have spoiled her like a child until she now acts like a petulant child who throws a tantrum when they don't get their way.

You have taught her how to treat you. You have trained her to disrespect your feelings, think only of HER dreams--- **** what you want or think...

You've also a the same time, taught her that you never really mean NO, because she seems incapable of accepting it.

The fact that your wife wants another child so she can globe Trot while her parents pay the bills for a third child..,,,,,
It's truly a narcissistic viewpoint. She seems incapable of empathy.

You need the learn how the say no, learn how to be firm and back away, and if your wife wants to leave you, consider letting her find happiness elsewhere.

All this talk about how you're not strong enough? Bull ****. You can handle it, but you'll be in pain just like every other person who has had to move in against their will.

Staying with your wife any longer will likely just drag out the pain and put you in an even weaker stat of mind.

Let me say this with no bias. NO wife worth anything, would force her husband to keep having kids against his will.
You're willing to compromise, she isn't.
She has all the power.

Best let her do her thing


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

If everything you say is true, your wife is a rotten, childish, spoiled shrew. Am I understanding you correctly that you're supporting the offspring of her irresponsible teen pregnancy? And now she'd like to pursue a career in photography just like 20 million other untalented young women? I do so look forward to seeing her blog. You'll be financing her "career" for the rest of her life. And if you don't she'll be pissed. 

You really need to put some distance between you and consider whether you want to stay in this marriage. You'll likely find that her demands only increase over time. Her unfounded resentment will as well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with the above post and want to add more.

Your wife is completely out of control. She is emotionally abusive. Does she ever hit you, throw things, and/or break things in anger?

She had a baby 6 months ago. Getting pregnant now is a very bad idea. Her hair is falling out? Has her doctor checked to find out way? It could be nothing or it could be caused by a medial problem.

Your wife sounds like she's either suffering from PPD (post partum depression) and/or some other mental health issue like BPD (bi-polar disorder). 

She needs mental health help now. After the way she is acting now, she probably should not have any more children.

You? You need to get into individual counseling to find out why you have staying in this horrid relationship.

Are you considering divorcing her? I think that might be your best bet.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

OP, do not have another child with your wife! She is a crazy woman. She needs psychiatric help. She wants, she wants, doesn't have any job, dreams of becoming a photographer to travel all over the world. Where is she going to get this money? Perhaps, she has a pie falling from the sky.

You are a young man and providing for an elder child of hers who is not even yours. Wake up man! You are being used as a baby making Papa & a provider. She is abusing you emotionally as well. You married too young. Divorce this woman and do not marry again for a long time, until you know who you are and what you want. Stay in this marriage and you will make hell on Earth for you!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I just read your other thread for context, and after doing so, I decided to erase the comment I was writing, and start all over.

Your wife isn't going to change, and this is what your life will be like for the next 18 or so years until she decides to up and leave you, and take half of everything.

She tortures and emotionally abuses you daily. You need to divorce this woman. See a lawyer immediately to see what you can do about protecting your assets, and get full custody of the baby, if at all possible. She should not be raising children. Unfortunately, I don't think that you can do anything about custody of a stepdaughter... is her father in the picture at all? If he is involved in any way, then hopefully he will be in her corner.

Seriously, you need to get out of this situation right now.

Normally, my advice is measured and very empathetic, but after reading this and then your last thread... this is a very bad situation that can only be rectified by divorce, and even then you'll still be dealing with crazy for the next 18 years, minimum. Get the BEST LAWYER YOU CAN FIND and get full custody. 

Then she can run off and do whatever the hell she wants.

But if you stay with her, your life will be a never-ending nightmare. This is not anywhere close to being a healthy relationship.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

,


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Have her checked out by a Psychiatrist. Not a Psychologist. A psychiatrist.

Her behaviour is abnormal and is impacting on you and the children.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Why the heck would you want a 3rd child with this woman?


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## pragmaticGoddess (Nov 29, 2017)

You wrote your wife wants to start anxiety treatment. That should be her focus right now. She needs to work on her mental health. Mental health issues might not be as obvious and seem as serious as a physical disease such as cancer, but your wife has a very serious condition that requires immediate treatment.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Have her talk to a real professional photographer - there's no money in it. Not without immense talent and $20k plus equipment...

Spend it on a lawyer instead.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

This young lady is a psychiatrist's wet dream.

Stop spitting out kids with her. At your age, a 6 month old of your own is more than enough for now. Her irresponsible teenage pregnancy obviously taught her *nothing* and at her age with 2 kids already, she's STILL acting like an irresponsible, childish little fool and wanting to breed - again.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Your Wife needs counseling in the worst way! 

But since it is rather obvious that she's going to stringently reject it, your only viable option is to schedule an appointment with a good family attorney to be fully advised of your property, as well as your custodial rights!*


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

pseudo-nymous said:


> 2.) She wants to travel to other countries. She wants to get children over with early in order to save soon and travel.
> 3.) *Her hair is falling out*. She doesn't want it to grow back just for it to potentially fall out again after another baby.
> 4.) She wants *anxiety* treatment. But not if she'd have to put it on hold once pregnant.
> 5.) Wants to get children out of the way early to allow her to do the things she wants.


I wanted to address the bolded portions.

It's possible that she has Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, which is an autoimmune disease often triggered by pregnancy. 

I have it, and, prior to being diagnosed and medicated, my hair would come out in clumps. I've also dealt with extreme anxiety, depression, rage. I've been on levothyroxine for about 10 years now, and the problems have slowly gone away. 

It may not be that at all, but you may want to suggest that she go in for testing. And, since your baby is only 6 months, you might want her evaluated for postpartum depression.


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

I remember your last post and I am unsurprised you are back and nothing is better and everything is worse.

Leave her.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

pseudo-nymous said:


> For a bit of context on what my wife is like, refer to my last post from some time ago.
> 
> It's been 4 days and my wife continues to spew anger hate and rage at me for something I didn't do. As in I didn't say yes to something she wanted.
> 
> ...


To the first bolded statement, you need to take care of yourself. You're of no use to your current children in this state, and they need their Dad. Also, yes people/couples grow and change, sometimes separately, sometimes together. But no one should have to change themselves so much just to please 1 person. 

As to the second bolded statement, it sounds like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. My first suggestion would be to get into couple counselling, but if she won't do it, then she doesn't really want to help the marriage. 

If I were you, I would get into individual therapy and get things figured out for yourself. Where do you want to be in life? Do you want keep being unhappy in your marriage? Do you want to fix things? What makes you happy? When you picture yourself 10 years down the road, what do you see?

I would also tell your wife that the verbal abuse stops NOW. You're individuals with your own opinions and feelings and the right to express those opinions and feelings. She needs to respect you as a person.

Once getting to the bottom of what YOU want out of life, talk with your wife. If things haven't improved with her attitude towards you, if it were me, I would let her know that she either comes to counselling with you, or you're done, and will fight tooth and nail for those kids. She's obviously unstable, so getting majority custody may not be so hard for you.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

pseudo-nymous said:


> No amount of professional help would honestly improve her behavior.


Well there ya go ... you have your answer. You are only 22. Why remain in the relationship-from-hell? And, more importantly, why are you putting up with this crazy woman????

She's not going to change.


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> You need the learn how the say no, learn how to be firm and back away, and if your wife wants to leave you, consider letting her find happiness elsewhere.


In a way I am doing this now. She continues to bring up "my mom offered a solution. A solution where you KNEW everyone would get what they wanted. Your decision only affects me." Etc, etc.

I've done this before in the past and she always gets upset. In the moment it really felt as if I did something wrong. I would obviously try to avoid situations like these because my mind is exhausted from dealing with it.



Tatsuhiko said:


> You really need to put some distance between you and consider whether you want to stay in this marriage. You'll likely find that her demands only increase over time. Her unfounded resentment will as well.





Ursula said:


> Once getting to the bottom of what YOU want out of life, talk with your wife. If things haven't improved with her attitude towards you, if it were me, I would let her know that she either comes to counseling with you, or you're done, and will fight tooth and nail for those kids. She's obviously unstable, so getting majority custody may not be so hard for you.


A talk won't do much. We somewhat had a talk last night. My wife is considering going back home with her mom for a while for "space". Her thoughts and vision of me haven't changed. Except yesterday she now felt that she no longer found any interest to talk to me. She wants to act normal and let this blow over but whenever she tried that once yesterday she immediately became upset because she felt like I "was getting my way."

There's not much I can say in bed when my wife is expressing her anger and upset feelings over how I "knew" that that option would give her what she wants. I can only lie there and be extremely careful and strategic over the words I choose and what I say. This has mostly been mind games with her and I'll show you how.

She's considered a few options that will most likely end up with her feeling as she is now anyway. Which means there is no fixing this. She also doesn't want counseling unless "it's something I really want" or that "will make me happy." Other than that she doesn't like talking to people. That's not the point of counseling. It's to come to a solution by a professional third party, which she obviously has no interest in.

She brought up us divorcing a lot last night but not suggesting it. More like, "do you want to leave me?" Mostly she feels like I wouldn't be fazed by it. No matter what I said she officially no longer believes me. Such as: obviously I would be upset/hurt/sad/depressed like I am now.

She said over and over how this is scary and she fears for our marriage. She said this *after* mentioning that she would go back home to talk to her mom and my mom to see if she's in the wrong. I'm not sure what they would say. But at that moment I felt like she would possibly be told that she is wrong and come to her senses and everything "would go back to normal."

I'll be honest, I feared this thought. Because we're so close, or perhaps already there, to splitting up. The main reason for that now is because she says things would never be normal between us anymore. I agreed.

If somehow she comes to her senses and let's this blow over, how could I jump into the splitting up topic without causing chaos? She's highly unstable. Last huge argument she cried hard for hours over mishearing what I said. She asked me if I was happy in our marriage. I said, "I don't know. Not if it'll be like this everyday." *This* meaning her arguing with me all the time and making me feel down. She thought that meant I wasn't happy with her, period.

Imagine I tell her I feel emotionally abused and the best option is to split up. How could I go about this without making myself out to be the bad person for suggesting divorce or to prevent her from breaking down and threatening suicide again?


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

She is a nasty, selfish and manipulative child.

You need to stop talking and start getting your ducks in a row. Let her go to her mom's and then use that period of peace and quiet to see a lawyer and get yourself together. Stop talking, stop arguing, stop being "strategic". Shut down. Do the 180. And, prepare yourself to leave and live a life of freedom from this constant abuse.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Listen, your wife is bat **** crazy (BSC) and you need to get as far away from her as possible. Run fast, run far...

And do NOT procreate with this woman again.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

pseudo-nymous said:


> Imagine I tell her I feel emotionally abused and the best option is to split up. How could I go about this without making myself out to be the bad person for suggesting divorce or to prevent her from breaking down and threatening suicide again?


Do not let this stop you.

1) She will do anything to make you look like the bad guy, no matter what you do, no matter how you do. Forget about this. YOU ARE NOT THE BAD PERSON. You aren't leaving a warm, loving, generous, considerate partner for selfish and superficial reasons. You are leaving a controlling and abusive woman to preserve your mental health and physical well-being.

2) Threatening suicide is a device that manipulators use to control their partners (they threaten suicide to keep them from leaving). It only works if you let it (if you let her manipulate you). If your wife threatens suicide, call 911. I believe they will take her to the emergency room and put her on a 36 or 72 hour psych hold. If she's faking and manipulating her, this will get old for her pretty quick. If not, then maybe she'll finally get the help that she needs.

On a side note, if she actually succeeds in committing suicide, this is not your fault. People that really want to do it will find a way, regardless of how you might try to intervene. This is a choice THEY make. You are NOT responsible for anyone's choices. You are only responsible for your own.



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## purplesunsets (Feb 26, 2018)

Your situation breaks my heart. I can feel your pain through your words. You are clearly trying to do right by your family and I commend you for that. 

To be honest, the abuse is quite clear and your reactions to her abuse are normal. I'm so sorry. You do not deserve this, no one does. All I can suggest is that you stand your ground and wait her out. She is clearly manipulative and emotionally abusive. She thinks she can wear you down with her hurtful words and cold shoulder. Has this worked in the past? She's probably doing this because she thinks it'll work again. All I can say is DON'T. Change the pattern by changing your behaviour. I know that's easier said than done but you have to at least try.

So, I would say first, definitely seek professional help to deal with your own traumas from her abuse. You need to see for yourself that this is not acceptable and that may take awhile because you obviously love her. Second, do not give in. If she brings up the topic, just say no, or say we've already talked about this and shut it down. Finally, when she starts calling you names or doing anything that makes you feel bad, please walk away. Do something kind for yourself. Go out and treat yourself to your favourite food or drink or something. She's treating you like garbage. You don't deserve that.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

pseudo-nymous said:


> Imagine I tell her I feel emotionally abused and the best option is to split up. How could I go about this without making myself out to be the bad person for suggesting divorce or to prevent her from breaking down and threatening suicide again?


Do not let this stop you.

1) She will do anything to make you look like the bad guy, no matter what you do, no matter how you do. Forget about this. YOU ARE NOT THE BAD PERSON. You aren't leaving a warm, loving, generous, considerate partner for selfish and superficial reasons. You are leaving a controlling and abusive woman to preserve your mental health and physical well-being.

2) Threatening suicide is a device that manipulators use to control their partners (they threaten suicide to keep them from leaving). It only works if you let it (if you let her manipulate you). If your wife threatens suicide, call 911. I believe they will take her to the emergency room and put her on a 36 or 72 hour psych hold. If she's faking and manipulating her, this will get old for her pretty quick. If not, then maybe she'll finally get the help that she needs.

On a side note, if she actually succeeds in committing suicide, this is not your fault. People that really want to do it will find a way, regardless of how you might try to intervene. This is a choice THEY make. You are NOT responsible for anyone's choices. You are only responsible for your own.



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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@Uptown


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I never understood why some have the ability to provide well for two kid but decide just getting by with 4 kids is so much better. 

Your W truly does not understand the math you have provided. The other nonsense of hair loss, etc. is just out there. Your W needs professional help. 

Concerning a career as a photographer. Your family will be starving with that career.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

pseudo-nymous said:


> How could I go about this without making myself out to be the bad person for suggesting divorce?


Pseudo, as @*Ghost,* @*Farside*, and I discussed with you last December, it is impossible to avoid being split black as _"the bad person."_ If your W is a BPDer -- as you suspect -- she likely has the emotional development of a four year old. This means that, as long as you choose to remain in this parent/child relationship with her, she will subconsciously use you like a trash can in which to dispose of her hurtful thoughts and feelings. 

Her subconscious accomplishes this by projecting those feelings onto you -- even when you are sitting perfectly still and saying absolutely nothing. Because that projection occurs subconsciously, she will be convinced -- at a conscious level -- that all the hurt and bad thoughts are originating from YOU. 

So please let go of the fantasy that you somehow are going to avoid being branded _"the bad person."_ And consider yourself lucky that your W has not yet had you arrested and thrown into jail, as my exW did to me. To a BPDer, having the partner arrested is the closest she will ever come to being awarded a Harvard PhD in victimhood. It will be viewed as such complete validation of her being "The Victim" that she may be tempted to have your arrest record framed and installed above the fireplace.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Do you want a life time of this behavior?


Your young get out asap .be a good father to your child and never listen to a thing this woman says again.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> *I never understood why some have the ability to provide well for two kid but decide just getting by with 4 kids is so much better.
> *
> Your W truly does not understand the math you have provided. The other nonsense of hair loss, etc. is just out there. Your W needs professional help.


We love our 3rd and 4th children. They are very different from #1 and #2, and are wonderful people, even though we don't have as much money as we would have had if they hadn't been born!

I can't believe that people reduce human lives to $ signs.

Hey! Had we had no children at all, we'd be really well off!!

So where does one draw the line??? Just ask Yeswecan, and you'll tell us, right?


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

Something odd just happened.

Another argument was going on when I decided to tell her that she's being emotionally abusive, because she was.
With a pissed off tone she asked "really? I'll just leave then".

She began to pack a bag while I took care of our smallest trying to rock her.

A few things were said regarding that, mostly "How am I being abusive?" "Why are we together?"

Then reality hit her and she started sobbing again like the last big argument. She bluffed and tried to play mind games while asking me for my ring. I gave it to her obviously because I'm sick of arguing. That was a "test" to see how I reacted.

This lead to a serious talk in the living room. She finally realized it and let me speak. She listened to everything I said and endlessly apologized for all the damage she caused.

This is the first time she's ever listened to me talk about what I feel. But that's not enough and it's too damn bad that it took this wake up call for her to do that.

She's apologized before on paper for "being a lot to deal with". Apparently now that she realizes she's been abusive, that was her apologizing for it. Even though that didn't stop her from continuing those actions and I let her know.

I told her I was going to seek counselling for myself before I continue any of that discussion. She promised to change after listening to everything and now wants a second chance pretty much. She fears that my counselor will tell me to leave. She kept nagging and asking if that would happen. I lied and said no. My first ever lie to her.

If I didn't, I'd have to deal with her sobbing all night and tomorrow during the day and it'd be more of a mess.

Regardless I'm in control now. She agreed to marriage counseling and she suggested talking with her parents either together or just me alone. She mentioned my parents as well.

She seems very convincing in fixing all of this. But I don't truly believe it. I want to use my time with my counselor to figure something out about divorcing. I feel a bit stronger in doing so.

Although I am beginning to feel bad now that she 100% wants to better and fix everything. A part of me feels this is manipulative behavior.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

It looks like you are making some headway. You can't change her, you can change yourself. If you change, she can either adapt....or not.

Stay strong. Be lucid. Don't manipulate or be manipulated. Don't be coerced into answering questions or making decisions but take your time to process the information before you respond. Take a deep breath and do not react out of impulse, but keep your head about you. 

Do not believe her or judge her by her words or promises, but judge her by her actions.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

pseudo-nymous said:


> I told her I was going to seek counselling for myself before I continue any of that discussion. She promised to change after listening to everything and now wants a second chance pretty much. She fears that my counselor will tell me to leave. She kept nagging and asking if that would happen. I lied and said no. My first ever lie to her.
> 
> If I didn't, I'd have to deal with her sobbing all night and tomorrow during the day and it'd be more of a mess.


Don't lie.

You should have simply said, "I don't know. If you are going to cry all night, please sleep on the couch, so I can get some sleep."

I believe she cries to get attention. If she knows that she is going to have to cry alone she will stop doing it.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

OP, I would be very, very wary. She may not be capable of change, and this "change" may just be further manipulation, giving you just enough hope so that you don't walk out the door.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

pseudo-nymous said:


> Something odd just happened.
> 
> Another argument was going on when I decided to tell her that she's being emotionally abusive, because she was.
> With a pissed off tone she asked "really? I'll just leave then".
> ...



OP, 

Recently diagnosed BPDer here.

My earliest memory is looking up while crawling around on the floor in our living room (I couldn't walk yet), feeling terrified by my father's shouting and the abusive language he was spewing at my mother above me. When I think back to it, there's also this memory of wondering: the energy, my father's angry face, his sneer, it all feels so bad; why didn't I deserve to be protected from the aura of negativity surrounding these situations?; why isn't my mom (who seemed to be a ball of love and happiness) being protected too? 

I absolutely adore children. One of the things that terrifies me the most about me as a BPDer, is the thought of exposing my future children to experiences like what I suffered through as a child. Even worse, the risk of them developing strong symptoms thus having to deal with the mental madness of BPD as adults and continuing the cycle of subjecting others to emotional abuse. It's a big part of what keeps me motivated to go to therapy and to document my experience. 

The health and mental well-being of your children/you is more important than this back and forth of maybe she's better, maybe she'll change, everything can be fixed, she's manipulative, let's get marriage counseling, her sobbing makes it difficult to sleep. Hello?! This is not a game, this is real life, abuse isn't just the crap you see on the lifetime movies, abuse is what is happening RIGHT NOW IN YOUR HOME RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE! I don't see my mom as the innocent victim in all of this. I consider her to be a contributor to my abuse through her silence, her failure to protect me, her fear of conflict with my father taking precedence over my wellbeing. Sigh

Assuming your wife is a BPDer, understand OP that she cannot just decide to change. A marriage counselor is not going to help her change. Her mom/your mom's advice isn't going to help her change. Are you hearing this? She needs professional help from someone specializing in BPD.

So please stop spinning the wheels as a victim on the cycle of abuse. Get off of there OP, quit making those classic mistakes. The real victims are the two children in this situation who are helpless to your decisions as adults.

Just writing this post has me triggering like crazy! Aargh! 

For the love of the kids!


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Satya said:


> Why the heck would you want a 3rd child with this woman?


This.

It doesn't sound like she wants to raise a child, it almost sounds like a video game, pop the thing out and grow it as fast as possible so I can go out and play.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2018)

pseudo-nymous said:


> This lead to a serious talk in the living room. She finally realized it and let me speak. She listened to everything I said and endlessly apologized for all the damage she caused.
> 
> This is the first time she's ever listened to me talk about what I feel. But that's not enough and it's too damn bad that it took this wake up call for her to do that.
> 
> She's apologized before on paper for "being a lot to deal with". Apparently now that she realizes she's been abusive, that was her apologizing for it...


No.

She spun on a dime from one manipulative tactic to another. A person this skilled can go from screaming bloody murder (inappropriate anger) to sobbing tears (playing the victim) to pretending to realize for the first time they are abusive (playing dumb) to showering you with praise and how much they need you (false flattery) to using the kids' suffering against you (shaming/guilt-tripping), etc.

Manipulative people are working your emotions. So when one tactic doesn't put you on the run emotionally, they switch to another. None of their tactics are sincere. They're all just little bullets in a clip they can fire away at you until something hits. 

Keeping their target in a weakened state is a specific strategy. So they keep you up late without sleep to wear you down until you give in. Having more children with this monster is the last thing you would ever want to do. Having the mother pay for things is just more manipulation, and this one is called the double bind.

They present you with a situation where no matter what you do: you lose. Accepting the money is an obligation you now incur to her mother. Refusing the money makes you look like a bad guy. You lose either way. Manipulative people are experts in setting you up this way. The point is to put constant stress upon you to the point where you just give up, lost and confused. 

Look at how you feel right now. This is your future. If you stay.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Wait until you have everything ready for D. Then at MC ask her point blank why she has been cheating on you with her boss. Not IF but WHY.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Araucaria said:


> We love our 3rd and 4th children. They are very different from #1 and #2, and are wonderful people, even though we don't have as much money as we would have had if they hadn't been born!
> 
> I can't believe that people reduce human lives to $ signs.
> 
> ...


Reduce human lives? I did not know there was a quota. Further, you state your kids are all different. What I posted had nothing to do with personality and differences in a couples children. Good for you your kids are all different. Has nothing to do with my post. It had to do with be financially RESPONSIBLE. 

Ask Araucaria is if it financially responsible to have as many children as you can without any type of financial support. You will be told it does not matter because they are all different and wonderful people. 

Yes, were does one draw the line? When the entire family is living week to week and house poor?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Wouldn't surprise me if she's back to her old ways before the end of the day.


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

Araucaria said:


> Don't lie.
> 
> You should have simply said, "I don't know. If you are going to cry all night, please sleep on the couch, so I can get some sleep."
> 
> I believe she cries to get attention. If she knows that she is going to have to cry alone she will stop doing it.


Thank you, this has been helping me a lot to not feel bad about her crying and sobbing.



FeministInPink said:


> OP, I would be very, very wary. She may not be capable of change, and this "change" may just be further manipulation, giving you just enough hope so that you don't walk out the door.


I *am* very skeptical of this. It almost worked but now that I've told my sister most of this she agrees with everything you all are saying which further disproves what I feel is wrong. I should be more rational in this situation and I'm just starting to.



Keke24 said:


> For the love of the kids!


This was the first thing I thought about when I've brought up in our arguments many times that we need to stop and change. Because it's already affecting our 6 year old (she cries whenever she hears her yell) and I'm sure it affects our 6 month old because sometimes that I rock her I cry and she just stares at me which isn't like her.



[email protected] said:


> No.
> 
> She spun on a dime from one manipulative tactic to another. A person this skilled can go from screaming bloody murder (inappropriate anger) to sobbing tears (playing the victim) to pretending to realize for the first time they are abusive (playing dumb) to showering you with praise and how much they need you (false flattery) to using the kids' suffering against you (shaming/guilt-tripping), etc.
> 
> ...





Tatsuhiko said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if she's back to her old ways before the end of the day.


I can definitely see this being manipulative even through the obscurity of her emotions. She's been sobbing all day, but she cries more once I leave the room. Ironically the day that I wanted to get out of the house the most, my company sent us all home to work remotely due to the weather. So I've been here since this morning. 

*Update:*
She called her mom this morning and talked for a good while. I only asked for a summary and got this so far.

Her mom tells her that I have every right to feel this way and she should leave me alone for a while. She bluntly told her that she needs to change. That if I left her, I have every right to because it would be her (my wife's) fault. Her mom completely took up for me and I'm sure her father knows now too. That made me feel a lot better.

Even after that she's still trying to guilt trip me. "Do I need to prepare for you leaving?" Said in a whimpering, vulnerable tone. I straight up told her we need to quit having these endless discussions and to let my mind relax and be at piece for one minute.

My options now are to seek counseling for myself to get myself in order and go through with separating. This pains me because of our children. They don't deserve this.
A second option would be to wait her out and see her "change". The problem with this is as convincing as she might sound, I don't see or anticipate any change anytime soon. Which tells me like most of you might think, she'll go back to herself in 2 weeks or so. I don't want to go through with this option as it would only confuse me more and perhaps drag me back into this loop. 

Does anyone here think she deserves a second chance from me? I don't think so because I believe too much damage has been done on both sides, children included, to push this aside and "start over". Does anyone have experience with a situation of "second chances"?


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

She keeps coming to me crying and crying saying she doesn't want to be alone and that she misses me. She keeps saying she's so scared and afraid to lose me and she feels alone.

She's having a major breakdown right now and if we keep this up all day I honestly don't know how she's going to handle herself by the end of the day.

I have to keep breaking away because I don't feel like talking at this moment and tell her it's not okay to keep having these small discussions. It's not helping any.

She's been researching this stuff all day. She has several tabs open on the computer about being an abuser. 

Does it change anything she's well aware of who she is now?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I don’t pretend to be an expert in this type of scenario but please be careful.She has changed too quickly and I would be prepared for something dramatic from her,even a suicide attempt just to regain control.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

pseudo-nymous said:


> She keeps coming to me crying and crying saying she doesn't want to be alone and that she misses me. She keeps saying she's so scared and afraid to lose me and she feels alone.
> 
> She's having a major breakdown right now and if we keep this up all day I honestly don't know how she's going to handle herself by the end of the day.
> 
> ...


OP, get over this drama already. Woman here, 60 years old, & 38 years married (first marriage for both of us). It is with great thought that I say to you that you need to exit from this marriage. She's researching how to manipulate you and guilt you. You're so very young to not put up with this situation. Don't let her drive you crazy. Save yourself & your children.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Why don't you get a VAR (voice activated recorder) and hide it in the room where she cries?

Then, the next time she cries, leave the house for a couple of hours.

I can (almost) guarantee you that when you listen to the recording, it will not be of her crying the entire time you were gone. She will stop crying within minutes of your leaving, and probably begin bad mouthing while you are gone. Her crying will resume when you walk in the door.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Can you call her parents to come over and take her to their house until she calms down? Maybe she needs to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital. Do not think of this as a punishment, but as a favor to her (and yourself.) She needs help and you need her away from you so you can have your sanity and life back.

What are your children doing while she is acting out?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

pseudo-nymous said:


> She keeps coming to me crying and crying saying *she doesn't want to be alone* and that she misses me. She keeps saying she's so scared and afraid to lose me and *she feels alone.*
> 
> Does it change anything she's well aware of who she is now?


Quite honestly, I doubt she is actually "aware" of anything other than the fact that she doesn't want to be alone.


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## thirdmarriagewife (Mar 2, 2018)

I am new here, in fact this is the first post I have read. I am glad you felt comfortable enough to ask for advice. From what you wrote above, your wife is emotionally stunted. These behaviors are those of child/teen IMO. I know though that we are hearing only one side, but the emotional abuse is bad it sounds like. I am not sure I have any advice though. I would suggest a therapist for your wife, but all the therapists have gone crazy lately with the rest of the world, espousing ideas as 'good' that were formally thought of as a 'condition'.

Edited to add: my bad not realizing that there were many pages of responses. I am sure my opinion was already covered. I apologize for being redundant.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

pseudo-nymous said:


> Does it change anything she's well aware of who she is now?


Well, anything is possible, Pseudo. It is extremely unlikely, however. Moreover, in the very unlikely chance that she does decide to seek therapy, it likely will be several years before you would see a pronounced improvement in her behaviors if she is a BPDer.

What is far more likely is that you're only seeing the "moments of clarity" that high functioning BPDers will exhibit on rare occasions, e.g. when they are having an emotional breakdown due to the realization that the partner is about to leave them. During my 15 year marriage, for example, my exW had such moments on 5 or 6 occasions. They usually occurred when I was furious because I had just discovered she had obtained another secret credit card and had run up debts of over $5,000 each time.

These episodes of clarity typically last a day or two and have no lasting effect on anything whatsoever. As soon as a BPDer's mood changes, her perception of your relationship will drastically change as well. This, at least, was my experience with my BPDer exW.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

She sound like a mess and having more children would be madness. She sounds very immature and needs to go and get herself sorted out. The baby is a mere 6 months old, her mother is a mess, bringing another baby into the picture would be a disaster. 
I think that you need to think about getting legal advise and appealing for custody of the children. She is an abusive lady who will mess them and you up more and more. 
Keep a record of all that happen, what is said and done.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

When my ex-wife was acting so horribly and getting worse, my son and I came up with a phrase that seems to fit here:

"Crazy sets the agenda."

Until you stop letting the fear of how "crazy" reacts to normal guide your actions.

Then when you insist on rational over the irrational, life gets better.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

pseudo-nymous said:


> She keeps coming to me crying and crying saying she doesn't want to be alone and that she misses me. She keeps saying she's so scared and afraid to lose me and she feels alone.
> 
> She's having a major breakdown right now and if we keep this up all day I honestly don't know how she's going to handle herself by the end of the day.
> 
> ...


I believe her boss has dumped her. She is starting to realize she screwed over her marriage for nothing. Now that the other ship has sailed she is trying to prevent the one she broadsided from sinking. 

This is all because the OM is no longer saying sweet nothings in her ear.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I agree with @Uptown. I think any real change is unlikely, and the only way to know if the change is permanent is sticking it out with for for another 5-10 years.

Are you really willing to risk it? I wouldn't. You only get one life.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2018)

pseudo-nymous said:


> She's been researching this stuff all day. She has several tabs open on the computer about being an abuser.
> 
> Does it change anything she's well aware of who she is now?


lol.

Nobody knows better than the abuser themselves how abusive they are. They've picked up tactics from early childhood and use them because they have no conscience about it.

YOU are the one who is finally realizing how abusive she is.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

The only person who can help her is herself. She has to seek help from a professional for her anger and possible depression. You cannot force that on her. I would simply lay down an ultimatum. Either she changes for good or you divorce.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## pseudo-nymous (Nov 1, 2017)

I talked to a therapist who confirmed by what they've read from my journal that my spouse is likely to have a personality disorder. They also agreed with much of I had thought of so far.

I've decided that I will file for divorce and give her the news this weekend that way I am around at home to handle her reaction rather than at work.

I now have some decisions to make about planning for potentially flying her home while this is happening, custody of our 6 month old, and potentially seeking a new job back home in the future to be near my step-daughter depending on what happens.

I am grateful to have opened up for once. I've always preferred to handle things myself. Although this time I felt I needed outside help especially because there are children involved. Writing to this community has helped clear my head and gather my thoughts. I thank you all for your time.

This situation is difficult for everybody. However, I am confident that our future looks much brighter with more time to focus on the children.


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

pn - 

You are a wise young man and I wish you every possible comfort and benefit your decision could offer. 

We are here if you need any further guidance or information.

Godspeed, my friend.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

@pseudo-nymous, on behalf of your son, thank you.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

OP, I'm glad that you have finally reached a conclusion for a course of action in this situation, and I wish you the best of luck.

Before you have the talk with her, I strongly urge you to see a lawyer and discuss the situation, and to learn what you can do to protect yourself and your assets during this time period. 

Your wife has an established pattern of erratic and impulsive behavior. I would be concerned that she might clean put the bank accounts and max out the credit cards when she learns that you are planning on divorcing her, if for no other reason than to screw you over. As a single-income household, you will legally be expected to support her, but you also want to make sure that she doesn't leave YOU struggling because she cleaned out the accounts and accrued a lot of debt in revenge.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

And also... I truly believe this is the best course of action for you and your child. If I were you, I would seek full custody, if possible. I don't think she is a fit parent, from everything you've written here.

Please continue to post here as you go through the process, and we will continue to do our best to support and advise you.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

I wish you all the best. You might want to think about telling her in a public place or having a third party present when you do tell her. It's not going to go over well.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Pseudo, thanks so much for giving us an update. Sounds like you made a wise decision. Because a divorce with a BPDer almost certainly will get very nasty very quickly, I agree with @*FeministInPink* that it is important to get your ducks in a row BEFORE announcing the divorce to your W. As *Pink* suggests, it is especially important to see a good divorce attorney ASAP. I suggest you also take advantage of the following resources:



_Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist, _a book by the author of _Stop Walking on Eggshells;
_
@*C3156*'s excellent tips about protecting yourself in a contentious divorce in his post at "Divorce Preparation;"
_"Co-Parenting after the Split"_ message board at BPDfamily;
While you're at BPDfamily, read the articles: "Doing What's Best for the Kids" and "Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD" and "Leaving a Partner with BPD;"
At other websites, I recommend the articles: "Fathers Divorcing," and "High Risk Parenting," and "Pain of Breaking Up," and "Divorcing a Narcissist;"
For tips on how to establish and enforce strong personal boundaries when co-parenting, I recommend an online blog by a psychiatric nurse who provides 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients -- see "BPD on the Behavioral Unit;" and
Finally, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers. Indeed, your thread has already attracted nearly 3,000 views. Take care, Pseudo!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

lucy999 said:


> I wish you all the best. You might want to think about telling her in a public place or having a third party present when you do tell her. It's not going to go over well.


sound advice. 

i would also suggest keeping a recording device of some kind on hand. phone voice recorder app, voice activated recorder in the pocket, etc. 

if she starts going crazy, pull it out and tell her that you are recording everything from then on. if she wants to speak to you directly, then she agrees to be recorded.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

OP--my apologies for posting this on your thread, rather than responding privately.

I received your PM, but cannot respond from Tapatalk on my phone. I will respond in the next day or two when I can get on my laptop, I just haven't had the chance to yet. I wanted you to know that I am not ignoring you, I am just a little slow in responding 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## BlueSuedeShoes (Mar 9, 2018)

It seems to me that your wife is used to getting her way and now that you've said no in the slightest she is extremely frustrated. She needs to learn that she can't always have it her way because a relationship is a two way street. But at the same time, you need to confront the situation and be very careful not to just put yourself on autopilot or tune out. You need to confront her with these problems before they get any worse. If you choose to tune out then you will just be furthering the rift between you. But you need to confront her about it in the right way so that you don't just end up having a huge blow up argument.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

pseudo-nymous said:


> Although I am beginning to feel bad now that she 100% wants to better and fix everything. A part of me feels this is manipulative behavior.


Trust your gut.

You obviously see her older child as your child. Have you discussed adoption with your wife? If you could adopt her, you could offer her protection when you divorce.



pseudo-nymous said:


> My options now are to seek counseling for myself to get myself in order and go through with separating. This pains me because of our children. They don't deserve this.


 Your children need a stable home life. They will not get it if you stay with your wife. The main focus should be reading up on divorce and custody in your state. Once you have a good handle on it, speak to an attorney and tell him everything about how your wife has called the police on you and about her abuse. Tell him about your concern for the older child as well and ask for help in protecting her.

You cannot adequately protect your children when you are in the middle of the drama. Find out what would happen with custody if you were to divorce your wife. Your main priority should be protecting the children.




pseudo-nymous said:


> A second option would be to wait her out and see her "change". The problem with this is as convincing as she might sound, I don't see or anticipate any change anytime soon. Which tells me like most of you might think, she'll go back to herself in 2 weeks or so. I don't want to go through with this option as it would only confuse me more and perhaps drag me back into this loop.
> 
> Does anyone here think she deserves a second chance from me? I don't think so because I believe too much damage has been done on both sides, children included, to push this aside and "start over". Does anyone have experience with a situation of "second chances"?


She’s not going to change. Sorry. She has proven herself to you countless times. Her thinking is messed up.

It’s not about what she deserves. It’s about what is or is not healthy for you and your family. The dynamic you are currently living in is not healthy for any of you, including your wife.

Please stop having sex with her. Tell her that her behavior towards you has you so upset that you couldn’t even consider having sex with her and she needs to work to make changes and show that you can trust her. Let her know that will take a long time with no slip-ups. This may help keep her on a better path long enough for you to get your plans together and implement an escape. If you have sex with her, she will likely try to conceive. 

I see that you are planning to tell her that you want a divorce, but I think it would be wise to make a plan first. You don’t know what she might do if you aren’t prepared in advance.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

FeministInPink said:


> OP, I'm glad that you have finally reached a conclusion for a course of action in this situation, and I wish you the best of luck.
> 
> Before you have the talk with her, I strongly urge you to see a lawyer and discuss the situation, and to learn what you can do to protect yourself and your assets during this time period.
> 
> ...


Cancel the credit card and shift your banking to something else that she doesn't know. You control your future, she does not.

In a community property state take exactly half out of the joint bank account.

Wire it to a new account.

When I was divorcing, my ex and I spoke of it on Sunday and I knew I had to act. Monday morning I wired the funds to an account. By noon she had drained the rest out to another account and was furious that i had beaten her to it and cancelled the credit card with a $30K limit.

She had intended to empty the whole joint account, tried to tell me that it was all hers since she had done this, that, and the other thing.

Nonsense!

Be careful that you only take what is actually yours, othewise you can get penalized in court.

So, yeah, see a lawyer!


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