# New member venting.



## bcd (May 2, 2012)

Hello, new member with lots of marriage problems. 

Our biggest issue is that we constantly fight about everything. When we fight, it is usually over almost nothing and it turns into her screaming and she has in the past gotten physical. She weighs about the same as me, but isn't really capable hurting me. I have never even raised my hand to her, much less hit her. I was raised not to do that and I know that if I were to loose my temper and hit her, she would be seriously injured. 

I have called the police on her one time. When I did, she jumped on the other phone and lied to the operator, telling them I was the one hitting her. When the police showed up, she admitted lying. I said I did not want to press charges, I just wanted to leave the house and she was barricading the door. I could physically move her, but not without hurting her.

We are constantly fighting and have been since she became pregnant with my first and her second child, 8 years ago. There are way more bad times than good. 

We moved in together shortly after we met because she was pregnant. Before that, we were together 2-3 times per day. After we moved in together, there was nothing until over a year after she gave birth. Since then it has been once every few months. She claims to have fibromyalgia along with about a hundred other medical issues. I personally think she does it for the attention and to receive pity from others. 

I stopped feeling pity for her long ago. She will get out and work in the yard or do other physical activities that she wants to do, but if it involves something like work, she will be to tired or hurting to bad. Same goes for sex. 

Her days typically involve getting our daughter ready for school and dropping her off. She then goes to her mom's house and they go shopping or whatever all day. She picks our daughter up in the afternoon and goes back to here moms house so she doesn't have to do anything with dd. She gets home about 5 minutes before I do and then sits on the sofa watching tv all night. She does not keep up with her hygiene at all. She showers about once a week and changes clothes only every few days. I can smell her, but in the past, when 
I have tried to delicately hint at it, she says she doesn't get dirty during the day so she doesn't need to shower. Her parents have also said stuff to her before a little more bluntly. 

My day involves going to work, then coming home and fixing dinner (or picking something up on the way), doing dishes, cleaning the house and any mess that was made during the day by DW and DD, going outside and picking up the mess from the dog adn any other chores that need to be done. I usually finish about the time everyone is getting ready for bed. 

She refuses to do any of the cleaning around the house and only occasionally cooks. When she does, it is frozen dinner or something liketuna helper that takes less than 5 minutes of effort.

Our DD sleeps in our bed even though she is 7 years old. I have been fighting this and loosing this battle every night for the last 4 years. When she doesn't get her way, she throws a screaming temper tantrum and DW says to just let her, then starts screaming at me because she doesn't want to hear DD scream.

I really hate to say it, but our DD is a spoiled brat. She gets absolutely everything she wants. All she has to do is throw a temper tantrum and mom gets it for her. It drives me crazy that she gives in all the time.

Honestly, if it were not for our DD, I would have left along time ago. Unfortunately, I do not think my DW is that great of a mother and I do not want to leave her alone for extended periods of time. Her parents must think the same thing because they took her oldest daughter from her. Yup, my stepdaughter lives with DW's parents. The father is long gone and out of the picture.

I have suggested counselling before and we even made it to a single session. I have not been able to get her to go back. Sometimes when we argue, she will bring it up that we should go, but when I agree we should, she will quickly change the subject

I am so frustrated and don't know what to do. I don't want to change her, I just want back the person she was before she became pregnant. I don't think I can take any more. I had planned on staying until our DD turned 18, but I don't know that I can make it another 10 years. Please help.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Sounds like counseling of some variety is definitely the order of the day. I don't know if she is having some kind of a temporary mental disorder, but it sure sounds like it. If you cannot get her to go with you, then I'd highly recommend that you make an appointment for yourself. That is the only true way that you're ever going to make any headway for change. Best of luck to you, my friend!


----------



## mrsmanhatten (Apr 21, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> Sounds like counseling of some variety is definitely the order of the day. I don't know if she is having some kind of a temporary mental disorder, but it sure sounds like it. If you cannot get her to go with you, then I'd highly recommend that you make an appointment for yourself. That is the only true way that you're ever going to make any headway for change. Best of luck to you, my friend!


Yes! Counseling even if it is just individual counseling will give you great input and help guide you on getting a comfortable handle on the situation. It sounds like something is wrong with her (psychologically) not that that is any reason for you to accept that behavior. What really makes me suspect that and I'm no professional is her neglect of her hygiene. It sounds like everyone else is caring for your daughter but her. Otherwise I would be concerned hour daughter is being neglected by her too. Hang in there and get some support for yourself. It sounds like you are also overwhelmed. Get some rest and take care


----------



## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

bcd said:


> but I don't know that I can make it another 10 years. Please help.


Well yeah, I doubt you can also... and given your description you'd be providing a miserable family life for your child. But I don't really see any reason you have to.

Out of curiosity, when you married your wife, were you two a team back then? Did you figure it was "us two against the world" and you worked collectively to get by? If so, what happened? Obviously you are not a team now. Something went tragically wrong along the way. Was it the death of a thousand cuts or was there some major events?

~Jeff


----------



## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

Having dealt with fibromyalgia for about 20 years I have to call BS on this one. This doesn't even loosely resemble fibro to me. It does however scream dysfunctional and to some degree self loathing. A woman not bathing for a week? Give me a break! That is antithetical to every woman I have ever met.

I tend to agree with mrsmanhatten in that she may have something psychologically wrong.


----------



## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Oh my God!

Poor you! 
I don't understand how these type of women can't see they're losing their partner everyday acting this way.
She sounds like she doesn't give a damn about anything and your concerns don't really matter to her.

I think you should try to be more blunt and tell her straight forward how you feel about certain things. 
Especially the hygiene. If I knew my partner would feel the way you do, I'd shower myself 10 times a day. 
I wonder why she doesn't make an effort for her self-respect and then for you!! 

And obviously from what you say, she doesn't like like a good mom given that she spoils her child that much. 

I think you should keep on "fighting" to have your say in the house and not let her do whatever she wants with the kids. 
She's not appreciating you !


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

bcd said:


> I am so frustrated and don't know what to do. I don't want to change her, I just want back the person she was before she became pregnant. I don't think I can take any more. I had planned on staying until our DD turned 18, but I don't know that I can make it another 10 years. Please help.


Maybe you don't want to change her but I surely think you want her to stop doing certain things like screaming and hitting. You need to let her know in a loving, caring and respectful manner that certain actions are destructive and you politely but firmly ask her to stop.

Don't participate in any fighting. Detach, withdraw, walk away. Establish a calm environment for a couple of weeks and get back to us.


----------



## bcd (May 2, 2012)

Thank you for the responses. It is good to be able to talk about this to people that understand. 

When we first met, I was going through a bad time in my life. I had been laid off for about 2 years and I was drinking heavily, to the point where I had lost about 40 pounds and was no longer eating. I was partying every day and I was probably lucky to be alive. 

There were some warning signs I should have seen back then, but I ignored them because I really didn't care. We were only really together for about 3 months before we found out she was pregnant. That was also the only reason I stayed. I figured the bad moods were because she was pregnant and things would get better once the baby came. When that didn't happen, I just figured it would take a little more time. Now, here it is 7 years later and nothing has changed. 

Being ex-military, I have always been a bit of a clean freak and I like everything organised. She is the complete opposite and likes everything dirty and in shambles. She even gets mad when I try to clean. Last night, I was trying to vacuum and she just lost it saying there may have been something on the floor that didn't need to be vacuum'd like a toy or a piece of jewellery. I tried to ask her to show me where and she couldn't, but got all huffy puffy about it saying that I just don't understand. She said she would do it later. I finished anyway and we argued about that and cleaning the rest of the night. She hoards everything she can to the point where if I throw away a trash bag, she gets angry because she didn't get a chance to look through it and make sure there was nothing good in there. I have to secretly take it out after she goes to bed or when she is gone. 

I normally do the dishes as well. I have asked her time and time again to do them and she always says she will get to them later. I have let the dishes sit in the sink, and on the counter, then on the kitchen table for over 3 weeks before and she will not touch them. She just says she will get to them later. 

The way I see it is that since she does not have to work and sits at home all day watching tv or out shopping with her mom, it should not be to much to ask for her to keep the house clean and cook dinner most nights.

Ugh, it is so frustrating just thinking about it. 

She is on medicine for depression along with a range of other drugs for hormones and other stuff. Last I checked, she was taking 18 prescription pills per day. I have tried to tell her that it is probably the pills doing this to her, but she insist they are necessary. She goes to the doctors office frequently and every time she comes home, she tells me and everyone else she knows about some new disease she has been diagnosed with. 

I do not know if it is true, her doctor is just feeding this stuff to her to make her happy, or if she is just making it all up.

When we go out, she cannot stand it if I wear anything but blue jeans and a t-shirt. If I try to wear a button up shirt, she says I am dressing up to nice and it makes her look bad. When I suggest she wear something besides stretchy shorts and a t-shirt, she says she wants to be comfortable. This is everywhere we go including nice restaurants. 

As far as our dd goes, yes, I am concerned for her because she gets screamed at all the time and has to constantly walk on egg shells just like I do. I know this is not healthy for her. 

I also am certain that if we were to divorce, dw would get custody. She is the one who takes her to school and dr appt's. She also keeps track of homework and all other activities. She volunteers at the school and would be able to get plenty of witnesses to say how good she is with kids. I on the other hand work 10 hours a day and am on call 24x7. It would be very difficult for me to provide a good environment,however she is and could be with her all the time. She does not work and is on disability for her fibromyalga.



arbitrator said:


> Sounds like counseling of some variety is definitely the order of the day.


I can sign up for counselling, however I am not sure what good it will do for me. I know and understand the problems. About the only thing I would get out of it is someone to talk to. If I cannot get her to go, I don't know that things will get any better. 

We had our daughter in counselling for a while. The counsellor pulled me to the side and suggested I get dw into counselling as well. When she brought it up to both of us, my wife blew it off. The counsellor tried to help us as much as she could, but it was not really her area.

I am really stuck here. I don't know what else to do.



arbitrator said:


> I don't know if she is having some kind of a temporary mental disorder, but it sure sounds like it.


I had hoped it was temporary, but after 7 years, it seems more permanent. 




mrsmanhatten said:


> What really makes me suspect that and I'm no professional is her neglect of her hygiene. It sounds like everyone else is caring for your daughter but her. Otherwise I would be concerned hour daughter is being neglected by her too.


She will frequently tell me that she showered at her mom's house, but I really have my doubts about it. She also doesn't take or bring home a change of clothes. Our dd is taken care of mostly by grandparents, hers on weekdays and mine on weekends when I work. DW does take her to school and dr appts as well as anywhere else she has to go.




Jeff/BC said:


> Out of curiosity, when you married your wife, were you two a team back then? Did you figure it was "us two against the world" and you worked collectively to get by? If so, what happened? Obviously you are not a team now. Something went tragically wrong along the way. Was it the death of a thousand cuts or was there some major events?


We were never really us against anything except each other. We had some goods times at first, but we were not together long enough to know any better. We never actually got married, but we live in Texas which is a common law state. We have been considered legally married for at least 6 years.



Stonewall said:


> Having dealt with fibromyalgia for about 20 years I have to call BS on this one. This doesn't even loosely resemble fibro to me. It does however scream dysfunctional and to some degree self loathing. A woman not bathing for a week? Give me a break! That is antithetical to every woman I have ever met.


I agree 100%. She tells me that I should do some research on fibro and maybe I would understand her better. The thing is... I have. I have read every article I can find on it. I also know several other people that have it. I think she uses it as an excuse to not have to work and get pity from others. I have never known a woman to not bathe at least once a day. I myself cannot hardly get out of bed without a shower to wake me up. I frequently shower 2 or even 3 times a day depending on what I am doing.




lovelygirl said:


> I don't understand how these type of women can't see they're losing their partner everyday acting this way.
> She sounds like she doesn't give a damn about anything and your concerns don't really matter to her.


I think she knows I am not going to leave her because of DD. She feels safe and comfortable. She has threatened to leave me before in the heat of an argument and I will ask if she needs help packing. The subject quickly gets changed. I have also suggested she go live with her mom for a while so we can have some space. It never happens. She cannot make it on her own. I pay for everything as I am the primary income. I pay for the house payment, cars, insurance, bills, etc. Whatever money she gets from disability I just let her keep as spending money. We keep our finances separate.



lovelygirl said:


> I think you should keep on "fighting" to have your say in the house and not let her do whatever she wants with the kids.
> She's not appreciating you !


I am tired of fighting. A person can only do so much.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

I feel for you and I see no 'upside' in this relationship for you. You are also doing your daughter NO FAVOR by maintaining the status quo. She is still YOUNG ENOUGH to learn new/better/proper behavior.

More than anything, your wife sounds manipulative, lazy, selfish, and self-centered. And you are allowing it to continue unabated.

As you are already earning ALL the money, paying all the bills, doing the housework, endeavoring to 'parent' your child ALL ON YOUR OWN, where is the 'downside' to severing this relationship? You're already a single-parent.

I think your own MENTAL HEALTH would be best served by moving out (or kicking wifey out), telling her to get a job and start paying her OWN bills, insisting she GROW UP and act like an ADULT. Someone else is raising BOTH OF HER CHILDREN. Her day is full of shopping, tv, and good times. She's NOT 15 yrs old!

1. *See an attorney* to learn what YOUR rights would be with regard to your daughter and your assets. Texas updated their "Informal Marriage" laws in 1995; see if it helps you. At least you'll know where you stand. Explain to your attorney that your daughter is currently being raised by both sets of grandparents ANYWAY. See if THAT will help you get full or 50/50 custody.

2. *Get into Individual Counseling for YOURSELF*. It will help you set goals for the next 5yrs, 10yrs, 20yrs and show you the steps you need to take to achieve them. It will help you deal with your daughter and her 'bratty' behavior. 

3. *Get your daughter into counseling NOW *(if she isn't currently in it.) YOU are the ONLY CHANCE this girl has of not being permanently SCREWED-UP!

4. *Talk to your in-laws *about your concerns for your daughter. Explain to them that your wife allows screaming temper tantrums and allows her to still sleep in your marital bed. *Explain that *your daughter's behavior is out-of-hand and that *you are looking for THEIR help *(since she's with them a lot of the time) to help enforce rules/acceptable behavior that your daughter's therapist recommends. If they love their granddaughter, they will see the wisdom of it.

5. *If your wife won't move out, then YOU should move out*. This will force wifey to get a job (unless she mooches off of her parents...if so, more shame them.) It will also force wifey to deal with daughter's behavior ON HER OWN during the week. She may find daughter's behavior much less acceptable when she's got to deal with it on her own. YOU will feel much better if you are taking positive, proactive steps in working towards a safe, sane future for yourself and your daughter. You're not finding it at your house. Your wife's problems (real or imagined) are HER problems. If she is NOT willing to face them, then you can't help her. You can only ever FIX YOURSELF.


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your situation. You sound like an honest and hard working guy. I've had many sleepless nights over this dynamic in my own marriage. Here's my take.

You met your wife when you where emotionally compromised, but now you've stabilized and seeing things clearly. However, your wife is the same compromised person that thought you were a good catch when you were drinking too much. You feel obligated to stay. You know there was a time when your wife helped you recover from your problems. You have a certain amount of loyalty to her and the kid(s), but your emotional needs have not being met for a long time. You see how the future is bleak married to a person who with these major character flaws, but you know you have flaws too so it's not so clear cut. There is not an easy answer for your problem since divorce is so painful for all. There is one thing that I know. Discussing this extensively with your wife will not change her behavior. If she's really on 18 meds she's not in her right mind. There will be no reasoning with a person this medicated because she can't be trusted with her emotions let alone yours. The only thing that *MIGHT* begin to change her behavior is a drastic change in your behavior and her environment. Not showering, uncleanliness and taking that many meds are indicators of mental illness. I would demand that she see an IC immediately. It should be a condition of your marriage. If she goes to IC then you'll have the chance to deal with everything onces it all surfaces. If your going to stay with her your going to have to have a long term plan to turn things around because her issues are very serious IMO. This means you need to remain calm and indifferent during her breakdowns and realize your needs will not be met in the near future. You can't continue give her the emotional responses she's expecting. You can't feed her illness with normal reactions or enable her by taking on her responsibilities. You need to let her know what you expect and consistantly act on it. This doesn't require you to be mean, distrespectful or negligent. You may need to shock her into waking up to the problem but with her overall condition you should get her parents involved for safety reasons. Tell them how you feel and that you want to stay married but think she's mentally ill. Let them know what your going to do. If their reasonable they should be able to support her once you laid out your expectations of therapy. If she agrees to therapy you will have to be satisfied with baby steps of improvement but don't ever allow her to go backwards.

Peace


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

BCD, welcome to the TAM forum. I had an experience similar to yours with my exW, who has strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I mention this because the behaviors you describe -- controlling behavior, verbal abuse, physical abuse, always being "The Victim," having a double standard, rapid flip from loving you to hating you, and lack of impulse control -- are some of the classic traits of BPD. Whether those traits are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD is a determination that only a professional can make.

This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot the red flags, i.e., strong occurrences of such traits. There is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and always being "The Victim." It should be easy for you to spot the red flags for such traits if you take a little time to learn what to look for. I therefore suggest that you read more about the red flags so you can see how many sound familiar.


> As far as our dd goes, yes, I am concerned for her because she gets screamed at all the time and has to constantly walk on egg shells just like I do.


Significantly, the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the spouses of BPDers) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._


> She has threatened to leave me before in the heat of an argument and I will ask if she needs help packing. The subject quickly gets changed.


Although BPDers will flip quickly between loving you and hating you, they usually are fearful of leaving because they hate to live alone. This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!"_


> When we fight, it is usually over almost nothing and it turns into her screaming and she has in the past gotten physical.


Generally, a BPDer does not fight to reach a compromise but, rather, to simply create drama. Moreover, a BPDer often creates arguments over nothing in order to push you away, giving her extra space to breath. This occurs because a BPDer quickly gets a terrible feeling of engulfment during intimacy.


> I have called the police on her one time. When I did, she jumped on the other phone and lied to the operator, telling them I was the one hitting her.


If you believe that a BPDer really has no control during her "out of control" rages, simply watch how she is able to fully control herself -- within ten seconds -- when the police knock on the front door.


> She claims to have fibromyalgia along with about a hundred other medical issues.


Like your W, my BPDer exW suffers from fibromyalgia. So do her two BPDer sisters. AAPEL (the French organization devoted to understanding BPD) states that "borderlines have a large incidence of fibromyalgia." See AAPEL - BPD and somatoform disorder. 

Although AAPEL does not estimate HOW LARGE that incidence is, it does provide a link to Dr. Leland Heller's explanation of why a strong association exists. Heller states that "BPD causes depression, anxiety, and anger - all of which contribute to the muscle spasm and the pain of fibromyalgia." See Is there a Link Between BPD and Fibromyalgia? * Is there a Link Between BPD and Fibromyalgia? - Dr. Leland Heller is a family physician who has treated thousands of patients with the Borderline Personality Disorder. BPD is a medical disorder and that.

For anecdotal evidence of the connection, you may want to do a Google search on BPD and fibromyalgia. You will get dozens of stories on websites commenting on the co-occurrence of these two disorders. Because BPDers are all convinced they are victims and want badly to validate that false self image, it is not surprising that a large share of them complain continually of numerous physical ailments.


> She hoards everything she can.


Like your W, my BPDer exW is a hoarder, to the point that she clutters a room so badly that it is difficult to walk through it. Significantly, hoarding is a form of OCD. I mention this because a recent large scale study of BPDers (pub. 2008) found that a fourth of the women also had co-occurring OCD. See Table 3 at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.


> I don't want to change her, I just want back the person she was before she became pregnant.


If your W is a BPDer, that person never really existed. What happened, during the 3 month infatuation period, is that she mirrored all the best aspects of your personality. BPDers do this not to be manipulating but, rather, to be able to fit in and be loved. Because they have a fragile, weak self image, they tend to mirror the personality of the person they have fallen in love with.


> We were only really together for about 3 months before we found out she was pregnant. That was also the only reason I stayed.


Like I said, if she is a BPDer, she will be able to sustain the passionate, wonderful honeymoon period for 3 to 6 months. When the infatuation evaporates, the fears return and you will start triggering her anger.


> She refuses to do any of the cleaning around the house and only occasionally cooks.


Again, she sounds like my BPDer exW who would only rarely do any house cleaning. Some BPDers, however, are good at cleaning up around the house.


> Our DD is a spoiled brat. She gets absolutely everything she wants. All she has to do is throw a temper tantrum and mom gets it for her. It drives me crazy that she gives in all the time.


If your W has strong BPD traits, there is some risk she will pass them on to your DD. Such traits are believed to be caused by genetics and/or the child's environment, particularly with respect to the mother. I therefore suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid opinion on what it is you are dealing with.


> I have suggested counseling before and we even made it to a single session. I have not been able to get her to go back.


Because BPDers are filled with self-loathing, the last thing a BPDer wants is to find one more thing to add to the long list of things she hates about herself. It therefore is difficult to get a high functioning BPDer to seek therapy. Moreover, because a BPDer's issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills, MC likely will be a total waste of money until she has been in IC long enough -- several years at least -- to work on her underlying issues.


> I am so frustrated and don't know what to do.


BCD, not having met your W, I don't know whether she has most of the BPD traits at a strong level. I nonetheless am confident that, if you take time to read about these traits, you will be able to spot any and all red flags that exist. I therefore suggest you read my brief description of BPD traits in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online articles. Take care, BCD.


----------



## bcd (May 2, 2012)

Thank you for the posts. The last one about the bpd was especially insightful. I have long suspected she is bpd, but she says she has been tested for it numerous times by her doctor and she does not have it. I will be reading all the links you provided and possibly showing some of them to her to maybe convince her that could be an issue. 

As much as I hate to do it to her, maybe there is some other type of medicine she could take. I know she is already taking Lyrica, Vyvanse, Mobix, Synthroid and Flexiril. I think she may be taking Welbutrin, but not sure if she is still on it. i am not real sure what the names of the others are.

We just spent about 2 hours arguing. It started out with me rubbing lotion on her back and shoulders. After that was done, I tried to progress it to the next level and that is when the fighting started. It has been about 3 months since we have been intimate and she had just taken a shower, so I figured it was a good time to try. 

It turned into me being some oversexed pervert that only cares about sex. Her solution was for me to go to the bathroom with my hand. We started talking and I basically told her that I am not happy with the way things are going and it's not fair for her either. I told her something needs to change and it is going to happen whether she wants it to or not. 

After a couple hours of talking, She conceded to going to counselling as soon as I can setup the appointment. She did say that the counsellor had to be a female, which I am fine with. I guess she thinks that she will get more sympathy that way. 

One thing she did say that I disagree with, but wanted to get some other opinions on, is that I have been drinking to much lately. As I said earlier, when we first met, I drank heavily (like a case of beer during the day followed by a fifth of crown every night with random shots). I did not at the time and still do not consider myself an alcoholic. I drank because I had nothing else and didn't care about anything. I could have stopped on my own at any time I chose. I chose to stop once she became pregnant and did not touch it again for a couple years. I stopped on my own. Now, I drink socially with the amount varying depending on the type of event, but typically matching what others are doing. This is typically about once a month or less. I will also on rare occasion have a drink during the week, but never more that one. Just for reference, a 750ml bottle of Crown will last me at least 2-3 months.

When we started fighting tonight, I went and poured me a drink, partially just to piss her off I will admit. I was pissed that once again, she gets what she wants and I don't get anything out of it except sore hands (from her back massage, not going to the bathroom, lol).

Anyway, I am going to go do some reading since Uptown pretty much nailed it with the BPD. Tomorrow, I am going to see about setting up counselling. There is an office right around the corner with someone that specialises in many of the issues we are experiencing including BPD. I know that she agreed to it tonight, but I have a feeling that will change once I actually set it up and she has to go.

Thank you.

Edit: I found this link that looks like it may be good to at least get her considering the possibility. I am going to see if I can get her to look at it. I think the last paragraph regarding the medicines is particularly relevant. With everything she is taking, this could be a definite possibility.
http://psychcentral.com/news/2010/08/20/bipolar-disorder-common-in-fibromyalgia/17083.html


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

bcd, you've got a lot of information here. It has been quite a while since I've worked in the mental health arena, but here are some thoughts I had while I read this thread: 

1. If she's on all those meds, she should be seeing a counselor already. If she's getting all that from a general practitioner, you may want to contact the American Medical Association and request a review or investigation. 

2. She may be addicted to prescription medications on top of everything else. 

3. BPD and bipolar disorder (the illness in the article you've linked to) are two different things. BPD stands for borderline personality disorder. 

4. Like the others, I think counseling would benefit you - no matter what she does or doesn't do. However, I suggest that you start documenting EVERYTHING. Let the housework go for a while... days, a couple weeks, and then take photos before you clean it and after. Date the photos. Keep a journal of the things she does for your child, the times and dates your daughter is with the grandfolks, and with you. Document household income, who earned what and how it got spent. Describe arguments and screaming incidents, both between you and her as well as when she's scolding your daughter. Describe the sleeping in your bed discussions. ALWAYS record dates, approximate times, and factual information. Don't write assumptions like "she was mad." Instead, say "she appeared to be mad because her face was red." If you anticipate an argument, record your discussion. You can get voice activated recorders at Radio Shack. (Some states will allow recordings to be used as evidence if one person knows about and consents to recording it.) Keep any e-mails or texts you two exchange. (By the way, a lot of this can be done just by sitting down once a day and writing it all out. You don't have to whip out a notebook every five minutes.)

Hopefully, your marriage will get back on track. It doesn't sound very hopeful to me, though, so all of this will provide you with a way to ensure that YOU get custody if you file for divorce. On that note, too, if you file for divorce, ask that a guardian ad litem be assigned for your daughter.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

bcd said:


> I have long suspected she is bpd, but she says she has been tested for it numerous times by her doctor and she does not have it.


BCD, for anyone married to an abusive angry spouse, relying on HER psychiatrist to give you a diagnosis likely will be a disastrous course of action. I say this for three reasons.

*First, psychiatrists may tell you absolutely nothing.* Because BPDers generally are excellent actors, it is a cakewalk for them to hide their BPD traits during a 50-minute session held only once a week. It therefore can take a psychiatrist a year to see the dysfunctional behavior you see all week long -- and it is highly unlikely a BPDer will remain in therapy that long (in the unlikely event you persuade her to even start).

Yet, even assuming that the psych has sufficient time to identify a BPDer's disorder, it is unlikely that the psych will ever tell you. Therapists are loath to tell a BPDer -- much less tell her spouse -- the true diagnosis. Giving her the name of her disorder almost certainly will result in her immediately quitting therapy. And, in the unlikely event she stays in therapy, telling her may cause her behavior to become WORSE, not better (by giving her a new identity as "the BPDer"). 

Moreover, therapists know that listing the diagnosis as "BPD" likely means insurance companies will refuse to cover it. It therefore is common for the "diagnosis" to be listed, instead, as one of the side effects or comorbid disorders, such as depression, anxiety, or adult ADHD -- all of which are covered by insurance.
_
Remember, BCD, your W's therapist is NOT YOUR FRIEND._ Like an attorney, he is ethically bound to protect his sick client -- even if you occasionally attend the sessions together with your W. Hence, relying on her _therapist's_ advice during the marriage is as foolish as relying on her _attorney's_ advice during a divorce. This is why I encouraged you to see YOUR OWN psychiatrist for a visit or two, which gives you the best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion because he will be ethically bound to protect your interests.

I am sensitive to this withholding of BPD information because, for 15 years, I took my unstable, abusive exW to weekly sessions with six different psychologists (and two MCs) -- at a cost of over $200,000. Significantly, NOT ONE of them ever told me the name of her disorder even though I sometimes attended the sessions with her. Instead, they followed the usual practice of using code words and talking about the Axis I disorders that are covered by insurance.

For example, the last psychologist -- whom my exW saw weekly for five years -- always said "I don't believe labels are useful" whenever I would ask for a diagnosis. At the end of that five years, when I was angry and thus very insistent on being told exactly what was wrong with my exW, this "no labels" psych reluctantly conceded that she has a "thought disorder." Duhh. Well, of course, that is exactly what BPD is!

Moreover, the BPD books I've bought all read like a biography of my exW's life. She exhibits all nine BPD traits very strongly and, for many years, had been sexually abused by her own father. At age 13, when she was strong enough to fight him off, he started beating her regularly. Significantly, my experience with psychologists is very common, as I've found when communicating with hundreds of other "Nons" like me at the BPD forums.

*Second, being able to spot BPD red flags is an important skill.* Even if psychiatrists could be relied upon to be candid with you, they are never around when you need them the most -- when looking for a suitable mate. Significantly, anyone on this forum who has tolerated an abusive spouse for more than a year is at GREAT RISK of leaving that abuser only to run into the arms of another one just like him. This is why so many of the folks complaining about abusive partners on this forum also complain that their ex-partners had been abusive too.

It therefore is important that abused partners learn how to spot all nine BPD traits so that, when they escape the toxic relationship, they won't keep repeating the same mistake over and over. Because we all occasionally exhibit all nine of the BPD traits, it is easy for us to spot strong occurrences of them in other people. There is nothing subtle about traits such as frequent verbal abuse, nasty vindictiveness, and temper tantrums. The reason for learning about BPD traits in particular, as I noted above, is that the Canadian study of physical abusers found that nearly half of them have full-blown BPD.

*Third, a diagnosis is intended to appease insurance companies, not to help you.* Even when your spouse's BPD traits fall well below the diagnostic threshold, they can be strong enough to make you miserable and completely undermine your marriage. Hence, being told by a psychiatrist that your spouse "does not have BPD" does NOT mean you are safe. It does NOT mean he doesn't have strong BPD traits.

This is so because, like all the other PDs, BPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. It therefore was ridiculous, in 1980, for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein in client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD.

This "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, in psychiatry, "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense at all for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnosis from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) quickly realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover BPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental illness.

This is why, in the new diagnostic manual (DSM5) that will be released in May 2013, this dichotomous approach is being fully abandoned for all PDs. It is being replaced -- indeed, has already been replaced in the draft manual -- by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity. Incidentally, as Kathy correctly observes above, "BPD" refers to Borderline Personality Disorder, not Bipolar Disorder.

I mention all this to explain why, for a person deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no BPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no _bus_ coming" when he is deciding whether to step into a crosswalk.


----------



## bcd (May 2, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> 1. If she's on all those meds, she should be seeing a counselor already. If she's getting all that from a general practitioner, you may want to contact the American Medical Association and request a review or investigation.
> 
> 2. She may be addicted to prescription medications on top of everything else.


She has multiple doctors, 6 that I know of. She has her general practitioner that she has been with as long as I have known her, the doctor assigned to her by the state for disability, a rheumatologist for for arthritis, a specialist for her fibro, her ob and our dd's paediatrician (he prescribes the Vyvanse for her because none of the other doctors can). She does not have any type of counsellor or psychiatrist.

The medicines she is on are:
ADVAIR
AMBIEN
ATARAX
BENTYL
CEREFOLIN NAC VITAMINS
DARVOCET
FLEXERIL
LYRICA
MAXZIDE
MYSOLINE
NAPROXEN
PRILOSEC
PRISTIQ
PROZAC
RANITIDINE
RELAFIN
ROBAXIN
SAVELLA
SKELAXIN
SYNTHROID
TOPAMAX
VENTOLIN
VYVANSE

I do not know if these are all current, but this was the list she gave me about 6 months ago that I had to turn in for insurance. Is it possible that some of these could be interacting with each other? I am pretty sure that she frequently misses or skips some of these.







KathyBatesel said:


> 3. BPD and bipolar disorder (the illness in the article you've linked to) are two different things. BPD stands for borderline personality disorder.


I caught that right after I posted my last. I had been thinking she possibly had Bipolar all along and when I saw the BPD, my mind went straight to Bipolar. Are the 2 related or similar. After looking at it, the bpd does seem more accurate, but the extreme mood swings are what have always led me to believe it was bipolar. It was as mentioned earlier the way she can immediately change and put on an act. We will be driving in the car fighting the entire way there, but the second she gets out and other people are around, she instantly changes into a completely different person.



KathyBatesel said:


> 4. Like the others, I think counseling would benefit you - no matter what she does or doesn't do. However, I suggest that you start documenting EVERYTHING. Let the housework go for a while... days, a couple weeks, and then take photos before you clean it and after. Date the photos. Keep a journal of the things she does for your child, the times and dates your daughter is with the grandfolks, and with you. Document household income, who earned what and how it got spent. Describe arguments and screaming incidents, both between you and her as well as when she's scolding your daughter. Describe the sleeping in your bed discussions. ALWAYS record dates, approximate times, and factual information. Don't write assumptions like "she was mad." Instead, say "she appeared to be mad because her face was red." If you anticipate an argument, record your discussion. You can get voice activated recorders at Radio Shack. (Some states will allow recordings to be used as evidence if one person knows about and consents to recording it.) Keep any e-mails or texts you two exchange. (By the way, a lot of this can be done just by sitting down once a day and writing it all out. You don't have to whip out a notebook every five minutes.)
> 
> Hopefully, your marriage will get back on track. It doesn't sound very hopeful to me, though, so all of this will provide you with a way to ensure that YOU get custody if you file for divorce. On that note, too, if you file for divorce, ask that a guardian ad litem be assigned for your daughter.


I have been documenting stuff for years on and off, but I always feel wrong for doing it, like I am being sneaky and going behind her back. I am sure I have enough already for a slam dunk in any court. The problem is, I really don't think I am capable of raising my daughter on my own. I have always been the disciplinarian "Drill Sergeant" type and I think there needs to be a balance that I cannot provide. DD is very attached to her mother and it would not be right or fair to take her away.




Uptown said:


> First, psychiatrists may tell you absolutely nothing.......


I understand exactly what you are saying here. Even with the diagnosis, that doesn't really help the problem get any better. It is just a label for it. She does not have any type of counsellor or psychiatrist so any opinions she is getting are from her GP. They of course would not speak to me about it,nor would I expect them to.

I also agree that if she were to be told that this is what she has, she would be telling everyone she knows about the new disease she has to get more attention and pity. She would play it up for all she could. Then whenever we would have arguments,she would just play it off as another symptom. I can easily see how that could work against us. 

Is there any chance that becoming pregnant could have triggered this? I have spoken with her parents about it a few times and they have said that after she became pregnant with our DD is when she drastically changed. She lived with them before moving in with me and they said they never saw any of these behaviours. I think they kind of blame it all on me because it did start almost to the day she moved in with me.

So after reading through what you have told me, I have to ask, is there really any hope that we can work through this? Now that I understand the problem a little better, I am certain that I cannot put up with this for another 10-15 years if there is no hope of it ever getting better. I am signing us up for counselling today, but is it really going to make a difference, or should I be looking to prepare for going our separate ways?


----------



## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

This sounds like a classic OCD hoarder to me not just BPD.

You can't change that at all.

ADVAIR - Asthma med
AMBIEN - Sleep med
ATARAX - sedating antihistamine (used for allergies and neuro pain
BENTYL - irritable bowel syndrome medication (also used in Crhons Disease and colitis)..You have to wonder why she has IBS with all these meds
CEREFOLIN NAC VITAMINS - supplement to replace folic acid and other needed vits and minerals (only benign one in her regimen to be honest)
DARVOCET - pain med
FLEXERIL - muscle relaxant
LYRICA - used for fibro and neuro pain
MAXZIDE - a diuretic - usually used for high blood pressure
MYSOLINE - generic name primidone, an anticonvulsant also used for BPD\fibro pain\depression off label use
NAPROXEN - Dangerous this one, FDA is investigating heart attack related issue and stroke for this one (Aleve is Naproxen OTC) pain killer
PRILOSEC - GERD med (gastro reflux disease_
PRISTIQ - depression med
PROZAC - antidepressant, also used for bipolar disease
RANITIDINE - Generic name for zantac (another gastro med)
RELAFIN - pain med (anti-inflammatory)
ROBAXIN - really mixing a muscle relaxer with that much pain killer?
SAVELLA - SNRI anti depressant *** WHY IN THE HELL IS SHE MIXING SSRI WITH SNRI BIG BIG NO NO DANGEROUS SIDE EFFECTS***
SKELAXIN - another muscle relaxant (really you need two?)
SYNTHROID - FOR HYPROTHYROIDISM (if she misses doses of this it wreaks havoc with mood)
TOPAMAX - another they use for fibro or neuro pain
VENTOLIN - asthma med
VYVANSE - this is usually used for ADD/ADHD or ODD (oppositional defiant disorder)


----------



## bcd (May 2, 2012)

A Couple questions and statements if you don't mind..



CantePe said:


> BENTYL - irritable bowel syndrome medication (also used in Crhons Disease and colitis)..You have to wonder why she has IBS with all these meds


Can you expound on this. It is difficult to read tone or sarcasm online so I am not quite sure of the meaning here. Are you saying that because all the meds, she should not have IBS, or that the meds are causing IBS?



CantePe said:


> NAPROXEN - Dangerous this one, FDA is investigating heart attack related issue and stroke for this one (Aleve is Naproxen OTC) pain killer


She also takes Aleve sometimes for headaches and other issues. I did not list any of the OTC medicines she takes.


CantePe said:


> FLEXERIL - muscle relaxant
> ROBAXIN - really mixing a muscle relaxer with that much pain killer?
> SKELAXIN - another muscle relaxant (really you need two?)


I think she may alternate between these depending on which one seems to be the most potent for her at the time.


CantePe said:


> SAVELLA - SNRI anti depressant *** WHY IN THE HELL IS SHE MIXING SSRI WITH SNRI BIG BIG NO NO DANGEROUS SIDE EFFECTS***


Which medicine is she taking that is an SSRI? I would like to read more about this


CantePe said:


> SYNTHROID - FOR HYPROTHYROIDISM (if she misses doses of this it wreaks havoc with mood)


I know that there is a medicine that she has to take every morning or else she is extremely cranky all day. It is very easy to tell if she has missed it. I am guessing this is the one.


CantePe said:


> VYVANSE - this is usually used for ADD/ADHD or ODD (oppositional defiant disorder)


Both my step daughter and my daughter are on this (against my wishes) as well as Intuniv. She says the school requires them to have it or else they will be sent to a special school. I really hate medicating my dd.


I know she gets the medicines from different doctors so they are most likely unaware of what the others are prescribing. If there is something like the SSRI and SNRI that I could discreetly point out to her and help, I want to do that.


Also, I have been reading the book Stop walking on eggshells. I am not much of a reader, but so far, this has pretty much been a play by play for us. Thank you so much for pointing it out to me. I intend to read the other one as well once I am finished with this one. I signed us up with a marriage counsellor, but I am having second thoughts and I may look for someone different that is more informed on BPD. When I asked if they were familiar with bpd, they just said they treat all kinds of marriage problems which led me to believe they had no clue what I was talking about.

For now, I do not wish for my dw to know that I suspect bpd, but unless I can get someone that is familiar with it, I am not sure that it would be much help.


----------



## memyselfandi (Jan 10, 2012)

Sometimes counseling works and sometimes it doesn't. I've found that it depends on the counselor and how much both of you are on the same page as them.

In the meantime, if the physical abuse continues, my suggestion is that the two of you live separately while continuing counseling.

Good luck to you and I wish you all the best.


----------



## bcd (May 2, 2012)

The only part I worry about when she gets physical is her getting hurt. She is pretty fragile and usually winds up twisting an ankle or bruising something on herself. She does not have the strength to hurt me, nor the endurance to try to keep up with me. Not trying to sound all macho or anything, but it is the truth. She gets winded walking from one end of the house to the other and gets painful bruises from bumping into doors and walls. 

As far as living separately, it may be an option for her to move back in with her mother, but I want to see what the counsellor says first. I just bought us a new house less than a year ago and I am sure she will be highly resistant to leaving it and letting me stay. Me moving in with my parents is not an option and I cannot afford an apartment or anything like that.

I am also not sure that leaving her alone for extended periods with DD would be a very good idea at this point. I think that could cause more harm than good. As it is now, I am the disciplinarian. I am able to control my temper and stay calm and collected. I am concerned that if she had to go at it alone, things could get out of control easily.


----------



## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

bcd said:


> A Couple questions and statements if you don't mind..
> 
> 
> Can you expound on this. It is difficult to read tone or sarcasm online so I am not quite sure of the meaning here. Are you saying that because all the meds, she should not have IBS, or that the meds are causing IBS?
> ...



LYRICA - (generic name pregabalin) SNRI
PRISTIQ - SNRI
PROZAC - SSRI
SAVELLA - SNRI 
TOPAMAX -SSRI
VYVANSE - Altered version of ritalin (AKA SPEED)

I was not being sarcastic in any of my post but what I meant was with that much pain killer no wonder she needs a med for IBS. As for getting them from different doctors, she has a duty to tell them what she's on before they script out a new med. Does she not realize that she could kill herself.

NSAIDS like Naproxen raise a woman's risk of stroke and heart attack by 57% purely because of how our female hormones work. She should NOT be mixing OTC Aleve with her Naproxen script. That is over dosing on Naproxen. I'm allergic to Naproxen, as in deathly allergic. She's desensitizing her body and leaving herself open to accumulative allergic reactions to things like Naproxen and the sedative antihistamine (Betzyl was it).

I'm no doctor but I am a tech writer and web researcher by trade (graphics designer and desktop publisher as well). I do research all the time for my tech writing and some of it is Medical Technical writing.

I'm surprised she's even walking, even IF she is switching back and forth there is still the issue of the medication half life in blood serum levels. Some take weeks to drop out of the system while others are 12 to 24 hours, some are even 3 to 7 days.

If she's adding the Aleve on top of the Naproxen script (which is the same thing anyway) she's also risking sudden bowel perforation or sudden stomach bleeding. VERY BAD MEDICATION! Lots of problems with long term use with Naproxen. NEVER MIX NSAIDS (ibuprofen, Naproxen, Diclofenac, advil, aleve, etc).

I wouldn't be surprised if she's seeing different doctors because she's self medicating because of BPD\OCD. A lot of BPD'ers self medicate if they are not being followed by a psych.

Her Bull poo poo about the kids needing to be on medication or they can't go to school or special school instead BULL SH!T. I am a mom of two autistic kids and an ADHD/ODD kid. Sorry medicating is solely up to the parents. She's medicating them to silence them in worse case scenario or she's medicating them due to ignorance of the medications (taking the word of whoever told her what she told you about being able to go to school - sue the school staff if it was them - legally they aren't allowed to even suggest being ADHD, only suggest a psych assessment through a specialist) and hers and the kids rights in good case scenario.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

bcd said:


> The bpd does seem more accurate, but the extreme mood swings are what have always led me to believe it was bipolar.


BCD, not having met your W and not being a psychologist, I cannot tell you which disorder -- if any -- she has. I _can_ tell you, however, that the behaviors you describe are far closer to BPD traits than Bipolar traits. 

I lived with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found eight clear differences between the two disorders.

One difference is that the mood swings are on two very different _spectra_ having different polar extremes. Whereas a bipolar sufferer swings between _mania_ and _depression_, a BPDer does not. Instead, a BPDer flips back and forth between _loving you_ and _hating you_. Significantly, you have not once mentioned anything resembling manic behavior. What you are describing, then, are mood changes from loving you to devaluing you, i.e., a BPD type change.

A second difference is seen in the _frequency_ of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. The latter therefore is consistent with your description of numerous hissy fits and temper tantrums.

A third difference is seen in _duration_. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Again, these short-duration rages are consistent with with the tantrums you describe.

A fourth difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Significantly, the behavior you describe is consistent with these event-triggered outbursts -- as occurred in your car argument example.

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry. This is why Bipolar is listed as an Axis I disorder and BPD is categorized as an Axis II disorder (i.e., a personality disorder).

A sixth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. This seems consistent with your description of hateful, spiteful behavior.

A seventh difference is that, whereas a bipolar sufferer is not usually angry, a BPDer is filled with anger that has been carried inside since early childhood. You only have to say or do some minor thing to trigger a sudden release of that anger -- which is consistent with your description.

Finally, an eighth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if he or she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period. Before they can trust others, they must first learn how to trust and love themselves. 

I therefore am puzzled that you have mentioned nothing about her being unreasonably jealous -- or refusing to believe you. If your W is a BPDer, I would expect her to be jealous, to fear abandonment, and to try to isolate you away from friends and family so as to better control you.

Yet, despite these eight clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that a substantial portion of BPD sufferers (about 25% according to a study published in 2008) _also have the bipolar disorder._


bcd said:


> The second she gets out and other people are around, she instantly changes into a completely different person.


That is common for BPDers. Because they have a weak, fragile self-concept, they rely heavily on finding a stable spouse whose strong personality will ground them and center them. This is why they usually HATE to be alone. And this is why a BPDer tends to behave very differently around different types of people. Since the age of four, a BPDer typically has been acting, i.e., projecting a false self image so as to fit in and be loved. That is necessary because she has no strong sense of self to guide her in how she should be behaving.


bcd said:


> I also agree that if she were to be told that this is what she has, she would be telling everyone she knows about the new disease she has to get more attention and pity.


Perhaps. It is far more likely, however, that she would be telling everyone that YOU are the one with BPD. If your W is a BPDer, she relies heavily on "projection" to protect her fragile ego. Hence, if she were accused of having BPD -- a disorder carrying a frightening and terrible social stigma -- she almost certainly will project that accusation right back onto you. 

Significantly, projection works so wonderfully as an ego defense because it occurs entirely at the subconscious level, allowing her conscious mind to really believe that YOU are the one with the disorder. It is because of this sincere conviction in the nonsense coming out of their mouths that BPDers are so convincing to casual friends and police. Although BPDers will not hesitate to lie when cornered, their defense mechanism of choice is not lying but, rather, projection. Unlike lying, projection accomplishes the very same thing and is absolutely guilt free. 

This is why the universal advice at the BPD sites targeted to the "Nons" (i.e., nonBPD spouses) is to NOT tell your wife the name of the disorder. Instead, simply encourage her to consult a clinical psychologist. As I discussed above, it is unlikely that even the psych will tell her.


bcd said:


> Is there any chance that becoming pregnant could have triggered this?


No, not if she has strong BPD traits. The emotional damage occurs usually by age five and the traits typically start showing at puberty or in early adolescence. 

Because BPD is a thought disorder that distorts one's perceptions of other peoples' intentions, the traits do not disappear for a few years and then suddenly reappear. Typically, they only disappear for a few months during the courtship period, at which time her intense infatuation holds her two fears at bay.

BPD traits can be caused, however, by a blow to the head, drug abuse, or a strong hormone change -- as occurs with pregnancy. The problem with using pregnancy as an explanation is that I've never heard of it causing BPD traits to last more than a few months, much less last for 8 years.


bcd said:


> Is there really any hope that we can work through this?


BCD, the answer depends heavily on whether she has most BPD traits at a strong level. If so, there is absolutely nothing that you -- or a team of psychologists -- can do to fix your marriage. The only person who can help a BPDer is the BPDer herself. 

Sadly, it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength to be willing to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. And, even when they do stay in therapy at the spouse's insistence -- as my exW did for 15 years at enormous expense to me -- they usually end up playing mind games with the therapists, as my exW did. Again, I encourage you to read my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. I believe it will address many of your questions, BCD.


----------



## bcd (May 2, 2012)

CantePe said:


> I was not being sarcastic in any of my post but what I meant


I wasn't implying that in a negative way. I just wanted to understand the meaning better. Thank you for clarifying. As far as her self-medicating by seeing different doctors, that is very possible and likely. She has multiple doctor visits every week. I am not able to keep track of them since I am at work and she has 5 hours a day to herself. I will try to talk to her and see what she is really taking and try to somehow bring it up that the combination could be dangerous.



Uptown said:


> the behaviors you describe are far closer to BPD traits than Bipolar traits.


Now that I am more familiar with it, I agree. I had never heard of this before 3 days ago and Bipolar seemed to be the best fit. I now know that I was wrong. 

The physical symptoms are all especially good fits:

_CFS - Chronic Fatigue syndrome : Characterized by profound fatigue that is not improved for example by bed rest_
She is constantly complaining that no matter how much she sleeps, she is always tired.

_FMS - Fibromyalgia syndrome(fibromyositis): _
Check

_Headaches (chronic) : Recurrent migraine or tension-type headaches_
She has constant migraine headaches

_HVS - Hyperventilation Syndrome : Condition in which minute ventilation exceeds metabolic demands, resulting in hemodynamic and chemical changes that produce characteristic symptoms (eg during panic attack)_
I have never seen her have this or complain about it before.

_Hypochondriasis: When a patient remains preoccupied with the fear that they have a serious medical illness despite the fact that medical evaluation has ruled out such an illness_
She is constantly checking her temperature and at the slightest sign of a fever, declares herself sick. She carries the thermometer around with her. Anytime some new disease shows up in the news or on tv, she swears she has it.

_Irritable Bowel Syndrome : Constipation, diarrhea, frequent abdominal pain, abdominal gas and nausea_
Check

_NHS - Neuronal Hyperexcitability Syndrome (spasmophilia) : Spasmophilia: This ailment is characterized by cramps, a tingling sensation, restlessness, and back spasms (also linked with panic attack and hyperventilation)_
She frequently has cramps and severe back spasms. She is constantly begging me to massage her back. No matter how much I do, it never gets better. She also goes to professional masseuse's and still gets no relief.

_Panic attack : Intense anxiety of sudden onset and brief duration characterizes a Panic Attack (DSM IV)_
Not that I have noticed, but she said she used to get them frequently when she was younger.

_PMS - Premenstrual syndrome : Please read PMS page_
Oh god yes. She even admits to it.

_Sleep disorder : Please read Insomnia / nightmares page_
She has a hard time falling asleep. The slightest noise wakes her up. She frequently gets up out of bed and stays up all night because she is unable to sleep

_Somatization (Briquet's syndrome) : Pattern of medically unexplained complaints of multiple physical symptoms_
She is constantly having some type of medical issue. There is not a month that goes by that we don't have to take her to the ER. Some of the bigger ones have been Pleurisy, Kidney Stones, Gall bladder removal, a benign tumor on her leg and any number of other issues

_TMJ, TMJD, TMD - Temporomandibular Joint Dysfunction or Disorder Syndrome : Describes a variety of conditions that affect jaw muscles, temporomandibular joints, and nerves associated with chronic facial pain_
She supposedly has rheumatoid arthritis. I am sure that could easily be mistaken for this one.

She also meets many of the criterion for bpd that are listed in the eggshells book. I am not trying to make them fit, but so much stuff listed in there sounds exactly like what we are going through.



Uptown said:


> I therefore am puzzled that you have mentioned nothing about her being unreasonably jealous -- or refusing to believe you. If your W is a BPDer, I would expect her to be jealous, to fear abandonment, and to try to isolate you away from friends and family so as to better control you.


I was not really aware that this was abnormal until I started reading the book, stop walking on eggshells. I do see many instances of this now. For example, she constantly calls me at work, sometimes up to 10 times per day and often for no reason at all other than to tell me something that I consider unimportant or routine such as she went shopping and picked up a gallon of milk. If I blow it off, she gets upset about it saying I don't want anything to do with her. I am not able to make her understand that I do care, I just don't need a play by play of her day when she does the same thing all the time.

I also see it where if I am a few minutes late getting home from work, she will call wanting to know where I am and why.
I gave up trying to go out with friends for an after work drink long ago. She becomes furious with me going out with any friends if she is not included.

Until I started learning, I thought this was just the way she was and not because of jealousy or fear of abandonment. 

I used to go over to a friends house all the time, like weekly. He had a neighbour that was cute and extremely flirty (with everyone, not just me) that would always hang around, someone I had known for years, but never had any interest in her. Every time I even mention going to that friends house now, she explodes and it turns into a huge argument.



Uptown said:


> I encourage you to read my post in Maybe's


I started reading it, but I was on my phone. I will go back and reread it in it's entirety now that I am on a computer.

I really do appreciate all the guidance that has been provided to me here. It is very helpful and I feel a renewed hope just knowing what I am going to be up against. I understand that it may be a long and difficult fight, but at least I know what I am fighting.

Thank you.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

bcd said:


> She constantly calls me at work, sometimes up to 10 times per day.... if I am a few minutes late getting home from work, she will call wanting to know where I am and why.


BCD, yes, that monitoring behavior may well be motivated by her fear of abandonment. Another likely reason for it, if your W is a BPDer, is her great difficulty with seeing "object constancy." BPDers typically cannot realize that other people have stable personalities and behave consistently over time. This is one reason that, in ten seconds, she can flip from thinking you are God's greatest gift to mankind to thinking you are the devil incarnate.

This also is the reason that BPDers have great difficulty realizing that they are still an important part of your life when you are out of sight or, heaven forbid, out of town. My foster son, for example, has an object constancy problem. He calls me every day for a minute or two. Once he knows that I'm still here and that he is important to me, he hangs up. We rarely have any real news to discuss.


bcd said:


> I really do appreciate all the guidance that has been provided to me here.


I suggest that, in addition to participating here on TAM, you start participating (or at least lurking) on BPDfamily.com, which is targeted solely to spouses and family members of BPDers (not to the BPDers). It is such an active site that it has eight message boards and is adding about 20 new members every day. 

Of the eight boards, you likely will find the most useful tips from the "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" board. I also recommend the "Leaving" board there (or "Staying" if that is what you decide to do). While you are there, please check out the excellent articles on the _Articles_ page. My favorite is T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. 

And, for your situation with a sickly wife, I highly recommend therapist Shari Schreiber's article about "Waif Borderlines" at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.. Finally, to get a better understanding of why you were willing to tolerate such abuse and control for 8 years -- and why I did it for 15 years -- I suggest you read Schreiber's article about us excessive caregivers. It is at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. 

But don't forget about us here at TAM, BCD. We want to keep in touch as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous people -- some of whom are members but most of which are lurkers. Your thread's hit count, for example, already exceeds 500.


----------



## KittyKat (May 11, 2008)

Hi BCD

1. As a husband, you should know the current medications your wife is on. I can tell you that Darvocet stopped being given to patients just about a year ago. She SHOULD NOT be taking BOTH Lyrica & Savella. They are prescribed for Fibro and should not be taken together. Depending on how long she's been taking them, she will need to 'ween' off one of them (I suggest Savella). She will have withdrawels if she just stops.
The list of meds she gave you is just mind blowing. Some of those meds are not needed. YOU need to go to each doctor she goes to and get the paperwork needed so you can also have her medical info shared with you. After that, go to each doctor and give them a list of ALL her current meds and give them the names of the other doctors so they can chat with each other. The doctors name is on the pill bottle who prescribed it.
Someone suggested you have the Doctor investigated. I personally don't think this is needed. Her doctor is prescribing for whatever condition she is complaining about, or because of tests that have been done on your wife. And I can tell you that her rheumatologist can also (and should) see your wife for Fibro. 

Can you tell us why the state has a doctor seeing your wife? I too am on disability but the state has not assigned a personal doctor for me and I would have an attorney ASAP if that were the case.

2. Did you know before you married her that her parents were raising her other daughter? Or did they get her after you were married? And do they have custody through the courts or because your wife doesn't take care of her (like your daughter)?

3. KEEP DOCUMENTING EVERYTHING. There is nothing wrong with writing things down in the event later on you need to recall a specific situation 

4. If you choose to go for custody, I doubt you would be alone in raising your daughter. Would your parents (and hers) not help you so your W could get the help she needs? If your wife's situation is as you describe here, your daughter should not be raised by her. Let alone your wife having sole custody.

5. If she is having pain in her back, could it be possible she has bulging discs? Yes, I am asking for a reason and will explain below.

6. Panic attacks: the only thing you can do about this is be patient with her. My significant other suffers these. She can hardly be in crowds of people, etc. This is something real.

7. PMS: not a damn thing you can do about this one but be her servant until it's over. May I ask how old the two of you are? 

8. Sleep disorder: I too have this problem. However, I wore earplugs in the military to sleep beginning in '84 and I have slept with them ever since. Your W takes Ambien. I take Lunesta. Do you and your wife realize the side affects of Ambien? I took it for a week and had to hide my truck keys (I was an OTR driver) because I was doing things in the middle of the night that I didn't know I was doing. It is indeed true that Ambien can/will make you sleep walk.

9. Please visit the links I'm providing. Read through the first link. It will explain why your wife has gurd, IBS and other problems.

10. Get your daughter off that medication immediately. You are also her parent and therefore have the right to put your foot down on this.

Now, I will not discount Uptown's posts. Your wife very well could have BPD. She very well could be the worst person in the world when she has PMS. And it sounds very much like your W is severely depressed. But I _can_ tell you that having Fibro is no picnic. If a person just has fibro, they may or may not be able to work (I have a friend w/ fibro and though she's tired a lot, she still works and goes to school while caring for a toddler). Your wife is not taking any medication (pain wise) that in my mind would prevent her from working.

As you research the links I provide, understand that a person with fibro never knows from one day to the next how they will feel. *Stress* is a huge issue in how a person with fibro is going to feel. And fibro will compound the pain on any other disease/injury one has. Fibro also mimics other diseases. So be aware of that also.

Real quick here. I have fibro. I consulted two rheumatologists for my diagnosis. I wanted to make sure I didn't have MS. I have a family practitioner and a rheumatologist for doctors. I have a really messed up spine (bulging, herniated, deg. disc disease) plus chronic arthriitis. I rotate two different muscle relaxers, take lyrica, celebrex (this works wonders on the bones), Lunesta to sleep (with my earplugs) and I take pain meds. ( V ). 
Fibro sucks the energy right out of me. There are some days I wouldn't get out of bed if I didn't have cats to care for (my babies  ). Sometimes just thinking about what I need to do for the day sucks the energy out of me and I put off doing it. However, when I'm having a good day, I go out to the garden and will spend an entire day out there. The sun works wonders for arthritis. But I also know that by doing that, I'll probably have zero energy the next 2-3 days and my back is going to hurt very bad. If I clean my house, I will hurt during cleaning and probably will have a bad tomorrow. But I _*know*_ this already. One must already have a good attitude. My doctor put a huge restriction on the things I can and can not do. The things I'm not supposed to do I sometimes do anyway because I enjoy them. But again, I already know I will pay a price of pain afterwards.
People with fibro on top of another health problem will do a ton of things on the day we feel good because we don't know when we'll have another 'good' day. 
That is the most important thing you need to take away from my post. Your wife never knows when she will have a good day. She probably isn't discussing this with you and she should. You should be going with her to her appts. so you will get a full view of any and all diagnosis. If you have to take time off work, then do it. Otherwise, she will continue thinking and trying to get you to believe she has all these problems. But going with her, she can't complain about this or that because you will already know exactly what's wrong with her.

I hope having another perspective on fibro helps you and your relationship.

Fibromyalgia: Associated Illnesses, Diseases, Disorders & Conditions List

Fibromyalgia Support • View forum - Fibromyalgia Support Forum

Fibromyalgia Forum - DailyStrength

And one last thing, have you looked at yourself lately? We are only getting your side of things, which is fine. Everyone needs a place they can go to and vent. But have you considered you may be the root of the problems with your wife and how she acts?




bcd said:


> She has multiple doctors, 6 that I know of. She has her general practitioner that she has been with as long as I have known her, the doctor assigned to her by the state for disability, a rheumatologist for for arthritis, a specialist for her fibro, her ob and our dd's paediatrician (he prescribes the Vyvanse for her because none of the other doctors can). She does not have any type of counsellor or psychiatrist.
> 
> The medicines she is on are:
> ADVAIR
> ...


----------



## uzername (May 1, 2012)

Make a counseling appointment and tell her when and where it is. Go to it, whether she shows or not is her choice. It sounds like your wife may have depression or some other serious mental health issues (namely because of the hygiene issues). If you are committed to leaving, you should start planning with a counselor or a lawyer on how you can get custody of your daughter. Being spoiled doesn't have to be a lifelong thing - she can be taught better with a LOT of effort. If you are committed to staying, you should plan on having a weekly appointment with a therapist/counselor whether your wife goes along or not. She should know that refusing counseling is a deal breaker.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

KittyKat said:


> I will not discount Uptown's posts. ...But I _can_ tell you that having Fibro is no picnic.


I agree, KittyKat. In saying that a large share of BPDers claim to have Fibro, I was not meaning to imply Fibro is imaginary or a walk in the park. It is a real disease. Rather, I was trying to make two points. One is that, because BPDers suffer greatly from self loathing and emotional instability, they are at far greater risk of developing Fibro. The second point is that, because BPDers desperately want validation for their false self image of being "The Victim," it is common for them to believe they have Fibro -- as well as a multitude of other diseases -- when they don't.


----------



## KittyKat (May 11, 2008)

Which is why he needs to go with her to every doctor she goes to and find out what's really wrong with her and so she can get the right medication for what that may be.

They knew each other only 3 months before she said she was pregnant and they moved in together.

I have to also ask, could it be she resents getting pregnant and maybe feels 'stuck'? And that's why her attitude changed when she became pregnant?



Uptown said:


> I agree, KittyKat. In saying that a large share of BPDers claim to have Fibro, I was not meaning to imply Fibro is imaginary or a walk in the park. It is a real disease. Rather, I was trying to make two points. One is that, because BPDers suffer greatly from self loathing and emotional instability, they are at far greater risk of developing Fibro. The second point is that, because BPDers desperately want validation for their false self image of being "The Victim," it is common for them to believe they have Fibro -- as well as a multitude of other diseases -- when they don't.


----------



## bcd (May 2, 2012)

KittyKat said:


> As a husband, you should know the current medications your wife is on....... You should be going with her to her appts.


Unfortunately, this is not an option. I work 45 minutes away from the house and most of her doctors are 15-30 minutes the opposite direction. It would not be possible for me to take off 3-4 hours a day 2-3 times per week.
Also, I usually don't know about the appts. until after I get home at the end of the day. She has never liked me going to her dr appts, even when she was pregnant and going for sonograms, she would not let me go. I would only find out about them when she brought the pictures home. It was the subject of many arguments back then.
When she gave birth, she did not want me in the room, but the dr brought me in anyway against her wishes.



KittyKat said:


> Can you tell us why the state has a doctor seeing your wife?


I have no idea. She just told me that she has to goto a certain dr to meet the requirements for disability payments.



KittyKat said:


> Did you know before you married her that her parents were raising her other daughter?


When we first met, she was living with her parents with her daughter. When she moved in with me, it was during the middle of the school year so she stayed so her school would not be interrupted. She was supposed to move in with us the following summer, but it never happened. In the house we live in now, she even has her own bedroom and stays over about once every other week, but she still stays with her grandparents. They live about 2 miles down the road.
My wifes mother is extremely controlling over her and has a great deal of influence. She is attached to her parents far more than anybody I have ever known. She goes to their house for several hours every day.



KittyKat said:


> If she is having pain in her back, could it be possible she has bulging discs?


 I do not believe so. She has never mentioned it before. She has had many problems with her sciatic nerve before and been treated for it numerous times.



KittyKat said:


> PMS: not a damn thing you can do about this one but be her servant until it's over. May I ask how old the two of you are?


We are both 36. She had a tubal litigation done when she gave birth (against my wishes, I wanted another) and lately she has been talking about getting a hysterectomy. 



KittyKat said:


> And one last thing, have you looked at yourself lately?


I do try to analyse myself, but it would be nearly impossible for me to present my wife's side of the story without her becoming aware of this post, something I am not eager to do. That is why I am trying to get us in counselling. I set up an appt for us early next week, but after I told her that I set it, she no longer wants to go, says we cannot afford it (and we really can't). I have been reading the book "Stop walking on eggshells" and it has really opened my eyes to both sides.




KittyKat said:


> I have to also ask, could it be she resents getting pregnant and maybe feels 'stuck'?


I really don't think that is the case. I think it is kindof the other way around. I had one of her friends tell me a few years back that she wanted me to get her pregnant so I would not leave. When we first met, she told me she was on the pill, but she stopped taking it right after we met without telling me.


I would like to say that this weekend has been great. She has been an absolute delight to be around. I have not really been doing anything differently than I normally do, so I am just assuming it is one of her up times. She has had a couple minor rages, but nothing big. She has even offered to go to the movies and see something I want to see (Avengers).

Anyway, I will check back later.

Thanks.


----------



## KittyKat (May 11, 2008)

BCD

1. Look at her medicine and get the doctor's name off the bottle. Then call each doctor and set up an appt. with each. Get the appts. far enough in the future that you can get them all done in 2 days. Take those 2 days off work and take her. Tell her if she doesn't want you going with her, you'll need to rethink your marriage because you care too much for her and your daughter to let her go through her medical crisis alone.

2. And I hate to throw around accusations, but since you only knew her for 3 months before she dropped the bomb on you, are you sure your daughter is biologically yours?

3. Is the disability doctor prescribing any of her medication? How did she get disability? Did she retain a lawyer? I'm just trying to understand why she must see a specific doctor in order to cont. getting disability.
Once on SSDI, it is very difficult for the gov. to take anyone off. The person on SSDI can take themselves off. The person can work up to a certain amt. of hours each mo. and still retain their SSDI.

4. Most people by the time they get into their 40's will almost always have a bulging disc in the L4-L5 region of their back (the lower back). But it doesn't mean everyone will have pain. But because I have a herniated L4-L5 with disc degeneration and a bulging L3-L4, I have sciatica problems which affects my right leg. It is highly unusual to have it affect both legs, but it can happen (I am proof). You can not 'cure' sciatica pain going down either leg unless you fix the disc that is causing it. And here lies another problem. Fibro will make that pain 100x worse.

5. You say she had her tubes tied because she didn't want more children, against your wishes (but aren't you glad now?). One of her friends says your W purposely got pregnant so she wouldn't lose you. This makes it sound as if your wife really didn't want to get pregnant, hence being resentful that she had to get pregnant in order to keep you. Would you not agree?

6. No need to make your W aware of this board. Just flat out ask her what are your annoying habits that get on her nerves. Present it as if you want to make life better for you both by working on the things that get her panties in a wad (which I would think you'd want to do anyway).

7. Have you asked your W why she doesn't want to share anything with you? No doctor appts., no being in the delivery room, anything else? Or is her not sharing only with doctor's?

8. Who is your mother in law controlling of? Your W, your daughter or both? How is your father in law? And what is your MINL controlling about?

I'm supper happy the two of you are having a good weekend. More so that she is having a good weekend.


----------



## bcd (May 2, 2012)

So much for our good weekend 
As I mentioned earlier, it has been several months since the last time we were intimate. She will not do anything at all when dd is in the house so that only leaves us Friday and Saturday nights for any chance of anything. So Friday night she is being a little flurry with me. When we go to bed she ask me to rub lotion on her so I do for over an hour. I also do several other things that would be considered foreplay. Everytime I try to get it started, she says just a little hit more. Finally after almost 3 hours I give up and go to sleep. She doesn't say a word about it all day Saturday. 
Still being frustrated from the night before, I wasn't even going to bother getting myself worked up again. We went to bed and I went straight to sleep. 
This morning, she tells me she was in the mood and tried to wake me up at 2 in the morning. I am a very heavy sleeper and she knows it. I asked her what she did. She says she rolled over and put her arm around me. Nothing else.
Anyway, I try to get her back in the mod. I start doing things that would turn her on. After about 5 minutes, just when I am good and worked up, she says she isn't in the mood anymore and her feelings are hurt because I wouldn't do anything with her at 2 in the morning.
She got up and went into the living room and hasn't come back.
Now I am really pissed off and frustrated. I don't know what kind of mood she is in, but she seems fine.

We were supposed to go see a movie this morning, but I really don't feel like going anymore.

Ugh, frustrated beyond belief.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

BCD, that childish control game -- i.e., "I'm so hurt that you rejected me when, while you were deep asleep, I put my arm on your shoulder" -- is exactly the kind of verbal nonsense you can expect from a young child. If your W has strong BPD traits -- as you suspect -- her emotional development is stuck at the level of a _four year old_. Granted, she has the intelligence, cunning, and body strength of a full grown adult. But, with respect to emotional maturity, you effectively are married to a four year old if she is a BPDer.


----------

