# stage 1 Multiple sex daily, stage 2 3x a week, 3 3x per month, 4 4x per year NO WAY!



## NoIssues (Oct 9, 2011)

I think the chemical ****tail that is the endorphins and such that is present during new love is the ultimate. 

Is it a cruel trick our biological design plays on us that it doesnt last forever? Is it even accurate that it cant last forever? Im not completely sure. 

Like many participants of this forum, I have done much reading about libido and it causing failed relationships in a variety of ways. 

1. Spouse feels duped that their spouse misrepresentred their libido prior to marriage
2. Spouse feels rejected, needs validation and wanders
3. Spouse feels pressured because spouse wants its too much
4. etc

I also have had the pleasure, displeasure and repleasure of

1. meeting the love of my life
2. screwing it up with neglect
3. saving my marriage after learning the skills needed to maintain marital happiness

My conclusions

If I pursue my wife of 12 years with romance, affection, respect and support she WANTS IT and I have the marriage I want full of sex, flirtation, humor, support, appreciation and the other good stuff that comes with an awesome marriage. 

When I stop pursuing my wife while I am caught up in lifes other pursuits, responsibilities and tasking I slowly repulse my wife thru neglect of affection, attention and appreciation. If this is done for too long, Id have a busted marriage like so many on this forum and elsewhere.

If I rekindle before its toast, we get back on track rather quickly to the point of stage 2. If I do a full court press I can take it all the way back to stage 1 sex drive in my sexy wife but it is quite frustrating as other areas of my life suffer from imbalance. 

Im good with stage 2 with an occassional stage 1 visit.

Have fun


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## Mindful Coach (Sep 15, 2011)

Great information NoIssues! 

Men need sex like women need love and attention, when the love and attention stop, the sex stops, and vice versa. So many marriage, outside of addiction issues or abuse would show an immediate 100% improvement if everyone involved were to remember that.


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## NoIssues (Oct 9, 2011)

Mindful Coach said:


> Great information NoIssues!
> 
> _*Thank you. I enjoy your posts also MC*_
> 
> Men need sex like women need love and attention, when the love and attention stop, the sex stops, and vice versa. So many marriage, outside of addiction issues or abuse would show an immediate 100% improvement if everyone involved were to remember that.


I hope we can help others with some concensus building. My issue is getting caught up in tasking and forget to slow it down and enjoy the ride with the love of my life. 

My reading TAM is a constant reminder the shameful heartache my past neglect of my deserving wife would surely bring again. 

The stories are repetitious. Too bad the marriage and relationship skillset is not taught prevalently. Imagine the misery we all could avoid if we knew how to meet the needs of our spouse. Everybody would win.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

NoIssues said:


> I think the chemical ****tail that is the endorphins and such that is present during new love is the ultimate.
> 
> Is it a cruel trick our biological design plays on us that it doesnt last forever? Is it even accurate that it cant last forever? Im not completely sure.
> 
> Have fun


So what you are pointing out is that the marriage you want, like anything else in life, takes time and effort from both sides.

Good for you in finding and achieving this:smthumbup:. Hopefully the stone cold fact that you are aware of and content with, and have pointed out here, will become equally familiar to other people who expect good marriages by luck, magic or divine right.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

So, shorter form....do all the work, she's a special snowflake.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> So, shorter form....do all the work, she's a special snowflake.


Not as such. You BOTH have to work. Otherwise it's like rowing with one oar - no matter how hard you work, you just go round and round in circles:smthumbup:


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

So you're the crew she's the midget at the back with the megaphone telling you stroke stroke stroke stroke.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Runs, I think of your worldview like that of Warren Zevon:

wry, quirky, clever and no doubt rooted in the truth - but not how I'd choose to do it!

Good luck, pal.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I would agree with your summary, although I don't feel it's as one sided as you portray. I can definitely see the difference in the effort I put into my soon to be over marriage and the relationship with my GF. As well as the difference in our intimacy "stages". On the other hand, my GF is much more receptive to my attention and efforts, as opposed to my wife actively throwing up roadblocks to my efforts.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoIssues (Oct 9, 2011)

Run, 

I dont much care for your sarcastically calling my wife a special snow flake or dismissing my ideas because you are consistently cynical of anything positive. 

What is it you are trying to accomplish other than raining on every parade that gets started here? 

Do you have anything positive to say that isnt couched in sarcasm?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Runs, I think of your worldview like that of Warren Zevon:
> 
> wry, quirky, clever and no doubt rooted in the truth - but not how I'd choose to do it!
> 
> Good luck, pal.



"King of the Goons, with a box for a throne"


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> "King of the Goons, with a box for a throne"


I was thinking more "Send lawyers, guns and money, the sh*t has hit the fan!" but I'm not about to argue with you


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

NoIssues said:


> Run,
> 
> I dont much care for your sarcastically calling my wife a special snow flake or dismissing my ideas because you are consistently cynical of anything positive.
> 
> ...


Sure. But when you boil it all down, when you strip away the Hallmark card, it's really little more than you convincing yourself that if you only worked a little bit harder she would come around or at least you would feel that way. 

I am a negotiator by habit. But that means to me that the other party has to seriously concede a bunch of things as well. They have to seriously want to sacrifice something important for the greater good. And that has to happen.

Everyone here, me included, is here because something does not work. It's broken. But if the solution to all of that was a management seminar in 'reframing the problem' then it would be easy. We'd all simply redefine it, declare victory and go home. That obviously is not the short run or the longer term fix. But if today's solution to mine, or your issue was a squishy complacent thing, a coming to terms and chipping away at the edges of it, a low risk low impact, low speed, cost free accommodation you'd be back here in 6 months or a year or two with more or less the same problem the same broken thing and wondering why appeasement wasn't enough. Why feeling better about feeling better didn't lead to it being better. 

I have a spouse who genuinely believes in nagging. She likes nagging. She says she likes nagging. She likes herself more when she nags. She believes that if she can simply nag, scold and correct a little bit more everything would work out fine. For her. It's a kind of sick pathological OCD. All we have to do as a couple is readjust my feeling about that. All we have to do is get on board with the nagging program. So were I a robot, we could reprogram me to be unaffected by the nagging program. She'd be free to become the Mrs. Spacely she always wanted to be and the world would be perfect. In only that twisted way that paranoids are happy when the world and everyone in it is as miserable as they. But - it's a solution, in theory. Not a great one, but a solution all the same. I do all the work, I do all the adjustment and everything is fine. 

That's my point. Fixing something means not just shared effort but shared sacrifice. Unless and until my mate, or yours or anyone's has significant skin in the game then there's no point in going forward.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> That's my point. Fixing something means not just shared effort but shared sacrifice. Unless and until my mate, or yours or anyone's has significant skin in the game then there's no point in going forward.


If you *both* are not only pulling an oar but also *both* getting blisters, you *both* aren't doing enough.


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## NoIssues (Oct 9, 2011)

Thank you for your response



Runs like Dog said:


> Sure. But when you boil it all down, when you strip away the Hallmark card, it's really little more than you convincing yourself that if you only worked a little bit harder she would come around or at least you would feel that way.
> 
> _*I disagree totally. Your stating "its little more than my convincing myself she would come around" is innaccurate and disrepectful of my statements and experience.
> 
> ...


I think being in a marriage is skin in the game. I dont think it requires the nonfaulty spouse to offer concessions. The spouse with their head in their azz needs to pull it out and give it a month and the magic will happen in reciprocation beyond reasonable expectations.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm glad that's not your circumstances. To me it's alien. To me the concept that someone can be essentially completely at fault and the other person is essentially faultless and that's an accurate picture, is a foreign idea to me. I would have serious suspicions about the judgment of a person who married someone who winds up being almost entirely at fault, about everything. I'm not subscriber to the ethos of women who 'want to fix him and save him'.


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## Mindful Coach (Sep 15, 2011)

Well, this has certainly turned into an interesting thread! All this talk about negotiations leaves me feeling as if we are in a hostage situation. 

I refuse to "work" my relationship, I will celebrate it, care for it as being the precious thing that it is, adjust for each of us to express ourselves fully and well and to grow and pursue a happy life, that's not giving in, that's not sacrificing a damn thing, that is LOVE. 

I'm sure NoIssues wife does plenty for him, or he wouldn't be here to talk about how happy he is. He is a gentleman in the fact that he talks about what HE needs to do in order to create a wonderful relationship with his wife. Let his wife talk on her own about what she's doing, but don't accuse her of doing nothing while he does everything when she isn't even here to defend herself, that's just not good sportsmanship.

Life is short people, I know if I live another 40 some years, and spent every minute of every day telling my loved ones that I love them, and showing them that - it won't be enough. 

Thank you Runs - I never thought of the "special snowflake" thing before. I really like that. I like the idea of my family members as a special snowflake - each unique and a miracle in my life. I just hope they don't melt away too soon.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

If one party in a marriage is the one always blowing air into the balloon or it deflates, telling them to do more, better, faster, is pointless.

If the other party in the marriage insists they are so willing to blow air into the balloon, but never really does, what is that?

When called on it, they insist they are, or preparing to, or just did and you didn't see it.

Um, the snowflake comment was not directed at the other guy. I interpreted run as making a comment about his own experience.

Unwad the shorts.



NoIssues said:


> Run,
> 
> I dont much care for your sarcastically calling my wife a special snow flake or dismissing my ideas because you are consistently cynical of anything positive.
> 
> ...


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## NoIssues (Oct 9, 2011)

Mindful Coach said:


> Well, this has certainly turned into an interesting thread! All this talk about negotiations leaves me feeling as if we are in a hostage situation.
> 
> _*Its stunning. There is so little taking responsibility and way too much blaming the spouse. Successful spouses create a warm glow inside their spouse from their actions toward them.
> 
> ...


My warm, loving, sexy wife is my sunshine and she always has been. She is also a good mom, sister, SIL, daughter and DIL. 

Everybody loves her unless they suck and then she jacks them up in a delightful way. 

I made no indication she did nothing and I did everything. She is awesome. I was the problem. If I thought I had to "negotiate concessions" I would still be a problem. If I stuck my head in the sand and continued blaming my wife and labeling her a nag Id still be a problem. 

Wake up or dont. There are lots of readers here. Others might be more open and respectful and less dismissive of a positive learned experience.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

NoIssues,

I think you have a lot of issues. Lashing out at me in a message is hardly a way to work them out.

Anything you want to say to me, say it here publicly.

You definitely need to unwad the shorts.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

OP - We women can have a VERY difficult time getting over and moving beyond neglects and hurts. I can see how your actions have helped her through this, and although I'm sure most see you as 'jumping through hoops' to appease her, she has had the task of letting go and regaining trust in you. That isn't easy! I struggle with it every day! I am glad that the two of you seem to understand and give the gift of love and forgiveness to one another. Who cares if it works for others, or if others want to critique your method. It works for your marriage and that is wonderful! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## omega (Aug 2, 2011)

Mindful Coach said:


> I refuse to "work" my relationship, I will celebrate it, care for it as being the precious thing that it is, adjust for each of us to express ourselves fully and well and to grow and pursue a happy life, that's not giving in, that's not sacrificing a damn thing, that is LOVE.


Thank you SO much for posting this. I have wanted to post much the same thing - as my husband and I share this sentiment and have discussed it at length since we met up til now - but I hadn't done so very well up to now here on TAM. 

There are no "absolutes" here: in some marriages, everyone has to work and put in effort. In some other marriages, they take a different philosophy. Some posters generalize their own situation to everyone and that is not accurate but it may be helpful to them to feel that their situation is "normal" or expected.

I liked the OP - a lot of insight there. Of course it doesn't apply to everyone, not then nothing does.


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## NoIssues (Oct 9, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> OP - We women can have a VERY difficult time getting over and moving beyond neglects and hurts. I can see how your actions have helped her through this, and although I'm sure most see you as 'jumping through hoops' to appease her, she has had the task of letting go and regaining trust in you. That isn't easy! I struggle with it every day! I am glad that the two of you seem to understand and give the gift of love and forgiveness to one another. Who cares if it works for others, or if others want to critique your method. It works for your marriage and that is wonderful!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. The idea of my jumping thru hoops is just silly. I learned what she needs mostly from oiutside reading and primarily its affection. Prior to my epiphany, I was impatient and distracted and it hurt her badly. 

She is easy to love. Saying I love you, offering her affection without an agenda, turning off the tv and listening carefully is hardly jumping thru hoops especially when the payoff is an amazing marriage.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

NoIssues said:


> Thank you. The idea of my jumping thru hoops is just silly. I learned what she needs mostly from oiutside reading and primarily its affection. Prior to my epiphany, I was impatient and distracted and it hurt her badly.


 NoIssues, she is a lucky lady! I think a lot of us wives wished our husbands realized this. Mine can also be impatient and unable to understand that THIS is all I really want from him. Just to know that I am somebody special in his life. It seems to me that you really have this figured out, and for that I'm really proud of you! (And envious of your wife)! I think if we all made a personal vow to 'first, do no harm' there would be a lot more love in this world! I wish you and your wife the very best! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

Lots of good points here. There is something that RUNS mentioned about the reprogramming bit that rung true for me. My wife tends to turn conversations on her/about her. This weekend, we were doing exercises from the 'Get the Love you Want' book. All about sharing deep personal childhood experiences. I started talking about my parents' marriage, and a minute into it, she 'took the conversation' to talk about _her_ reaction to something I went through with my parents and how she wished she did something different and her view, etc, etc. I never finished my thought. I figured this was a really bad way to start a conversation that included sharing if I was not granted time to finish an important, though relevant point to the discussion. I got frustrated, expressed this, she felt bad, cried, said what an awful person she was, she hurt me so, 'everytime I relax and talk, I mess this up," etc. (again, a shift from my frustation to her feelings/thoughts) This is an on-going point of 'disucssion' (2-3 years at least in active discussion). 18 hours later (and I have a headache), I, according to her, 'had something to hide' and sabotaged the whole discussion. Read: she (once again) was right and I was wrong.

So, I have a choice. 1. Continue to 'express my feelings' so that I will no longer 'be a stranger' to her, and have to fight and argue for some 'air time' or 2. Let her talk through me, over me, interrupt my thoughts and let it all go. Reprogram or not reprogram, that is the question.

More importantly, this is a question in *my* marriage. A central question in Runs marriage might be different (nagging) or in NoIssues (his lack of attention). But maybe the common lesson is not so much the issue, but how the couple addresses it. And regardless, there has to be efforts on both sides (even if it's the woman forgiving her husband's past lack of attention). Just my thoughts.


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## Mindful Coach (Sep 15, 2011)

omega said:


> Thank you SO much for posting this. I have wanted to post much the same thing - as my husband and I share this sentiment and have discussed it at length since we met up til now - but I hadn't done so very well up to now here on TAM.
> 
> There are no "absolutes" here: in some marriages, everyone has to work and put in effort. In some other marriages, they take a different philosophy. Some posters generalize their own situation to everyone and that is not accurate but it may be helpful to them to feel that their situation is "normal" or expected.
> 
> I liked the OP - a lot of insight there. Of course it doesn't apply to everyone, not then nothing does.


You're welcome. Every relationship goes through stages, and each person brings their own idiosyncrasies into it. But that's what makes it unique and beautiful.


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## Mindful Coach (Sep 15, 2011)

Hi Jayde!

Great points! 

I'm sure your wife doesn't fully understand how to communicate with you in a way that allows you to feel heard. Women talk in circles which is confounding to men. For example, you say - "Wow, I had one hell of a day". She says "Yea, I blah blah blah, and then the kids blah, blah, blah, then this, and that, ..... " in a big circle and then getting back to the point at hand. By the time the circle is finished, most men are lost, feeling dismissed and unheard - but really, it's not a purposefully rude thing on her behalf. She probably just doesn't realize that adjusting to a more straight interchange would be helpful. 

Now, for us women, that straight interchange can seem brusk and uncaring. Keeping that in mind when talking to a woman will be helpful too. In that example, you say "So and so just had their baby", She asks you a million questions and is left unsatisfied because what she wanted to hear was "So and so had a baby girl, named it _______, it weighs ___ and the mom is great, this and that persons showed up with balloons and the father did this, and the nurses said this, and the weather, the stock market and the eggs in china were all like this....., anyway, would you like to send flowers?"

Meeting somewhere in the middle of those two styles usually helps in amazing ways!


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## isloveenough? (Jul 19, 2011)

Runs and Jayde- The point of reprogramming, I have to agree with on some level. It's almost like compromising, or sacrificing for the other..depending, of course, on the situation. In my own experience, when my husband and I hit a rough patch (more like fire pits) we sought counseling and read some books together. I finally realized why he didn't feel as loved as he could have and vice versa. We made changes necessary to remind our spouses how important they are! So I'm not a big cuddler in bed and he is...I made a true effort every day to give hugs and kisses when we got home from work, tickle his neck while driving...and give him more cuddle time at night. His language is physical touch and hey, that's not such a bad thing! I enjoy this as much as he does now and it's proven to take some of the tension away from going to sleep without sex for a night. Yes, after 13 years of marriage we still have sex almost daily, and if I'm too darn tired for a night, he doesn't feel neglected because I show him love in many ways. Sometimes thats what it takes. I don't see it as reprogramming entirely, but making adjustments and for me it's helped out more than anything.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Stage 2 is ideal mate, currently my wife and I are on stage 1.5, and it's much better then stage one. Then again her stage one is a bit too much, for the wrong reasons really - insecurity.


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