# Drunken mistake



## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

Message

Hey all, I've been a lurker on these forums but wanted to share my story to get other opinions. 

About a month ago my wife of 3 years (no kids) went out for the night with our group of friends. Normally I go out with her but I was super busy with work on this day so stayed at home.

That night I suspected something was wrong because she didn't come home at a reasonable time. She does have a tendency to fall asleep easily after drinking so I assumed they all went back to a friends place to hang out and that's what happened.

However the next day she informed me of what actually happened. She had ended up going back to our friends place with his roommates. They passed out and as such she ended up alone with my friend. They were both blackout drunk at this point and one thing led to another and they ended up making out and engaging in some hand play. 

She swore up and down that nothing further took place and they stopped halfway through when they realized what they were doing. I talked to other sources (the other guy, her best friend as confides in) and they confirmed this. Given that she confessed to me without me suspecting anything I do believe that she is telling the truth. 

In terms of her relationship with the other guy, they were friends. They didn't ever hang out 1:1 much but were friendly when our group hung out and talked a bit online (since they watch a lot of the same tv shows and such). So I think there was some emotional connection there but I don't believe that it was romantic - just good friends. 

Between my wife and I, we were going through some tough times. I had been away for a month due to family issues and with work being busy when I got back we drifted a little and weren't really having much sex. So I'm sure that didn't help matters. 

Immediately after telling me, she cut off all communication with this friend (I didn't even have to ask) and curbed her drinking. I was convinced that she was truly sorry. The only red flag was a message she sent her best friend about how she still thinks about the friend when I'm not around and misses him. We had a long conversation about that since I wasn't happy to know that but from that talk and my reading it seemed to be withdrawal from having a friend completely cut out from her life. 

We've been building our marriage back up since by talking about our issues and in general things are looking up. There's areas on our marriage I started to neglect that I now know are very important (I made it very clear to her that I take 50% responsibility for our marital issues, 0% for what she did). I don't think she thinks of him anymore based on how her interactions with me are (specifically based on what I've read about it being very difficult for women to have emotional relationships with more than one person at a time) and based on what she tells me on her thoughts about him (basically that she feels he betrayed her trust and they can never be friends again). 

In summary I think that what happened was a one-off, terrible decision made while being way to drunk and being in a poor situation with a drunk, horny, single guy. It still sucks but as far as betrayal goes this appears to be on the less serious side (compared to some of the stories I've read here).

My question is that do others think there's a world where my wife and I can hang out with our group of friends, including this other guy again? For his part (we haven't talked much but other mutual friends have relayed information) he appears to be absolutely regretful and mortified that he did this (even contemplating moving if he needs to). Not saying we'd be good friends again but could hang out socially in the same group. Again it sucks, but if I'm willing to give my wife a second chance does he deserve one too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I wouldn't allow her anywhere near him ever again.

So you start hanging out again and a couple months down the road you have to work on a night out again and she goes without you.

How's that going to work?


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

She would never hang out with this group without me if he was present. From the conversations and discussions we've had she has no interest in being even close to friends with him again (again she also feels like he betrayed our trust). 

It's hard though to lose all your friends because of something like this though. And while a couple of the ones who I am very close with know, I don't particularly want everyone else knowing too because in my mind that reflects really poorly on me.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

Tip of the day: A blackout drunk person never thinks about having sex, let alone move any limbs. A blackout drunk person only wants the environment to stop spinning and go to sleep as soon as possible. 

Your wife's excuse does not compute.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

ArcticRain said:


> She would never hang out with this group without me if he was present. From the conversations and discussions we've had she has no interest in being even close to friends with him again (again she also feels like he betrayed our trust).


How did he betray her trust?

She's blameshifting.
Is she stating that he should have had control over what she was doing?

Sorry but that statement is crap.
He betrayed your trust, he just gave her what she wanted.



> It's hard though to lose all your friends because of something like this though. And while a couple of the ones who I am very close with know, I don't particularly want everyone else knowing too because in my mind that reflects really poorly on me.


They will know, they'll all eventually know.

Your wife has really screwed up your social scene.

I wouldn't allow her anywhere near him ever again.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You owe him nothing so if you don't want to give him a second chance don't. If you do... monitor it carefully. For example you wife and he are never alone together, never sit near each other, etc.

The problem here is her going out in a group with single men without you and drinking way too much. Neither of these things can happen again.

There are two book I suggest both of you read:
"Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley and "His Needs, Her Needs"


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

verpin zal said:


> Tip of the day: A blackout drunk person never thinks about having sex, let alone move any limbs. A blackout drunk person only wants the environment to stop spinning and go to sleep as soon as possible.
> 
> Your wife's excuse does not compute.


Actually if she was "blacked out" drunk she wouldn't have remembered it at all.

Take that bit of info from someone who "knows" what "blacked out drunk" really is.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

If I did something bad and knew it would get back to my spouse I might do damage control by admitting a little bit. Maybe something I know will be work but my spouse will get over it. One thing I can guarantee is that you did not get the entire truth. Black out drunk and that's all....sorry I'm not buying it. Oral happens so easily in cases like this. Remember when they say they made out with someone it's always one worse.
Not sure how you can get the whole truth. Chances are only 2 people know the truth...OM and your wife.
Good luck!


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

That's not true. Having been that drunk before myself (and seen enough other people in that condition), people are still functional in that situation but just act on autopilot with no thought and can end up doing things they would otherwise never do (e.g., punch a wall).

I'm not saying that as an excuse for their behavior, you still have to deal with the consequences of what you do, but it is an often non-significant factor that contributes to the behavior. And the solution to that is to stop drinking and getting yourself into that state. And to be fair she never offered that as an excuse but when telling what happened, that was part of it.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

tacoma said:


> Actually if she was "blacked out" drunk she wouldn't have remembered it at all.


Heh, that's another way to put it I guess.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

ArcticRain said:


> That's not true. Having been that drunk before myself (and seen enough other people in that condition), people are still functional in that situation but just act on autopilot with no thought and can end up doing things they would otherwise never do (e.g., punch a wall).


Blacked out drunk is when you wake up hogtied in the back of a cop car and the last thing you remember is doing that 8th Russian quaalude at a bar two counties over.
That's blacked out drunk.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

He betrayed her trust in the sense that they were friends and she trusted him to do the right thing. Which in this case would have been to put her in a cab and send her back home when she drank too much. Not saying she isn't responsible for engaging on her end, but she expected more from someone that would be a friend.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

ArcticRain said:


> He betrayed her trust in the sense that they were friends and she trusted him to do the right thing. Which in this case would have been to put her in a cab and send her back home when she drank too much. Not saying she isn't responsible for engaging on her end, but she expected more from someone that would be a friend.


I hope at least you see the extreme hypocrisy in this point of view even if she doesn't.

He took advantage of the poor little defenseless woman.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

Maybe blacked out drunk is the wrong phrase. But from my own experience there is a phase where you are so drunk that you don't really know what you are doing at the time (hence the being on autopilot) and when you sober up / wake up the next morning you have a hazy recollection of what took place. Again, I'm not using that as an excuse but as a contributing factor to what took place.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> Message
> 
> Hey all, I've been a lurker on these forums but wanted to share my story to get other opinions.
> 
> ...


*
Errr.... No! *

And he doesn't deserve a second chance. Besides, that'd be cruel! Why put temptation in front of him?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Why would you want to hang out with any of them again? Is it a mixed group or all guys and her? If your wife has this much trouble with alcohol, then the friends have to go. Sounds like the friendships center around drinking.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

tacoma said:


> I hope at least you see the extreme hypocrisy in this point of view even if she doesn't.
> 
> He took advantage of the poor little defenseless woman.


I understand what you are saying. I guess what I am trying to say is that I've been in the situation before where I'm stuck with one of my buddies girls that I am friends with when she is drunk and I do everything I can to make sure she is safe and taken care of. Because as a friend that's what they would expect me to do.

Now sure, if I instead made a move on them there's a good chance they would just reject me. But there is also a chance that if the situation was right, they might just give in. Blame would absolutely fall on them for giving in, but at the same time they trusted me and would never have expected that from me (maybe some random guy at the bar).


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> She would never hang out with this group without me if he was present. From the conversations and discussions we've had she has no interest in being even close to friends with him again (again she also feels like he betrayed our trust).
> 
> It's hard though to lose all your friends because of something like this though. And while a couple of the ones who I am very close with know, I don't particularly want everyone else knowing too because in my mind that reflects really poorly on me.


No, if you want to protect your marriage, you will never see this guy again. If you think your friendships are more important than your marriage, go ahead.

It sounds like you have a lot of friends, yet she misses this one guy who she wasn't particularly close to and never hung out alone with.

Seems like she's over him (to you). How long will those feelings she had for him take to start back up?

She feels like HE betrayed "OUR" trust? Your wife is the only one who vowed to be faithful to you, she is the primary betrayer. She put herself in position to screw this guy (yeah, yeah, just "hand play" - you're giving me a good laugh).

Here's my solution. When your friends get together, YOU go, your wife can stay home alone where she can be trusted.

Nice friend. Which of your friends still want him in your circle of friends after what he's done? Tell him he can hang out with you again after you punch his teeth out.

Why in the world would you be OK with you or your wife ever hanging out with this guy again? What consequence has this POS had? He "says" he's sorry; he says he'll move - just words. Tell him you'll take him up on it, see how he changes his tune.


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## crazyace (Aug 20, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> He betrayed her trust in the sense that they were friends and she trusted him to do the right thing. Which in this case would have been to put her in a cab and send her back home when she drank too much. Not saying she isn't responsible for engaging on her end, but she expected more from someone that would be a friend.


Wow! ... so according to her , the OM should have been more responsible and she as a married woman, having a husband who loves her had no responsibility. Leave the responsibility, but even sensibility or sensitivity ?? She as a married woman did not think of coming home directly after being too drunk ?
This is blameshifting ... He was wrong not me .. Or I was wrong but he was more wrong .. buh!


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## Cdelta02 (Sep 20, 2012)

Does she sleep with anyone once she is drunk? I assume not. But she did with this person, so one can assume there is a bit of attraction there. Do you really want to bring this guy back into your life to test the waters?


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Why would you want to hang out with any of them again? Is it a mixed group or all guys and her? If your wife has this much trouble with alcohol, then the friends have to go. Sounds like the friendships center around drinking.


Mixed group. And we don't usually drink a ton, but every now and then (say every couple of months) it does. In terms of why, that group constitutes all my friends. Sure we are working on making some new ones, but it's hard not having people to hang out with.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> I understand what you are saying. I guess what I am trying to say is that I've been in the situation before where I'm stuck with one of my buddies girls that I am friends with when she is drunk and I do everything I can to make sure she is safe and taken care of. Because as a friend that's what they would expect me to do.
> 
> Now sure, if I instead made a move on them there's a good chance they would just reject me. But there is also a chance that if the situation was right, they might just give in. Blame would absolutely fall on them for giving in, but at the same time they trusted me and would never have expected that from me (maybe some random guy at the bar).


Rationalization.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

crazyace said:


> Wow! ... so according to her , the OM should have been more responsible and she as a married woman, having a husband who loves her had no responsibility. Leave the responsibility, but even sensibility or sensitivity ?? She as a married woman did not think of coming home directly after being too drunk ?
> This is blameshifting ... He was wrong not me .. Or I was wrong but he was more wrong .. buh!


Sorry, I'm clearly not communicating something critical here. She has never once stated that she blames him or that she blames alcohol for what happened. Right from the start when she confessed to me, she took full responsibility for what happened.

As we've had follow up conversations (specifically around if we could ever hang out with this group of friends again) she has stated that she could never be friends with this guy again because she feels like he betrayed their friendship. That is between her and him and does not change the fact that she still believes she is responsible for what she did.

I guess another way to phrase it is that she knows she messed up. However, she expects that someone who claims to be her friend (and her husband's friend) would be able to show restraint in that situation and do the right thing. If they can't, then they're not really a good friend at the end of the day - right?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

ArcticRain said:


> I understand what you are saying. I guess what I am trying to say is that I've been in the situation before where I'm stuck with one of my buddies girls that I am friends with when she is drunk and I do everything I can to make sure she is safe and taken care of. Because as a friend that's what they would expect me to do.
> 
> Now sure, if I instead made a move on them there's a good chance they would just reject me. But there is also a chance that if the situation was right, they might just give in. Blame would absolutely fall on them for giving in, but at the same time they trusted me and would never have expected that from me (maybe some random guy at the bar).


I guess you don't see the hypocrisy.

If she is blaming him as an instigator then she is blame shifting and lying.

What else is she lying about concerning that night?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> Sorry, I'm clearly not communicating something critical here. She has never once stated that she blames him or that she blames alcohol for what happened. Right from the start when she confessed to me, she took full responsibility for what happened.
> 
> As we've had follow up conversations (specifically around if we could ever hang out with this group of friends again) she has stated that she could never be friends with this guy again because she feels like he betrayed their friendship. That is between her and him and does not change the fact that she still believes she is responsible for what she did.
> 
> I guess another way to phrase it is that she knows she messed up. However, she expects that someone who claims to be her friend (and her husband's friend) would be able to show restraint in that situation and do the right thing.* If they can't, then they're not really a good friend at the end of the day - right?*


*
*
*
And that, ArcticRain, is why you can never forgive him or give him another chance. Because he might take it.*


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## MysteryMan1 (Nov 4, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> He betrayed her trust in the sense that they were friends and she trusted him to do the right thing. Which in this case would have been to put her in a cab and send her back home when she drank too much. Not saying she isn't responsible for engaging on her end, but she expected more from someone that would be a friend.



I would never be around that guy again after he engaged in "hand play" (whatever the hell that means) with my wife.
Come on bro! She's putting all the blame on him, really? She says she expected more of him, as her husband I would expect more of her.


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

"They passed out and as such she ended up alone with my friend. They were both blackout drunk at this point and one thing led to another and they ended up making out and engaging in some hand play."

How did they end up "passed out" so close together that they suddenly awoke in a position in which one thing leads to another? In my experience, under the influence or not, in circumstances where I have awakened to one thing leading to another, I was in my own bed with my own husband. I cannot imagine any circumstance in which I could mistake anyone else's body parts for his, regardless of substance use or fault of lighting. I am that familiar with him. To say they just suddenly realized what they were doing and stopped doesn't make any sense.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Devil's advocate:

Is it possible that there were others in the (apartment?) - someone who may have intruded on them or appeared to have intruded (in her mind) on them In flagrante delicto, so to speak - and they broke it off. 

Since she was suspicious that someone else knew she 'came clean'? 

At any rate - I say this guy is persona non grata from here on out.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

calmwinds said:


> "They passed out and as such she ended up alone with my friend. They were both blackout drunk at this point and one thing led to another and they ended up making out and engaging in some hand play."
> 
> How did they end up "passed out" so close together that they suddenly awoke in a position in which one thing leads to another? In my experience, under the influence or not, in circumstances where I have awakened to one thing leading to another, I was in my own bed with my own husband. I cannot imagine any circumstance in which I could mistake anyone else's body parts for his, regardless of substance use or fault of lighting. I am that familiar with him. To say they just suddenly realized what they were doing and stopped doesn't make any sense.


They referred to his roommates who also came back. Those two guys passed out leaving the friend and my wife alone.

I wasn't sure what the rules on this forum so hand play felt safe - basically referring to they used their hands to pleasure each other.

In terms of they realized what they were doing and just stopped - doesn't make me feel better but at some point they sobered up a bit and the part of the brain that associates consequences with actions kicked in and they realized just how wrong what they were doing was.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Devil's advocate:
> 
> Is it possible that there were others in the (apartment?) - someone who may have intruded on them or appeared to have intruded (in her mind) on them In flagrante delicto, so to speak - and they broke it off.
> 
> ...


I don't believe so. Her best friend (who I am friends with) told me that my wife turned to her with the details of what happened (looking for advice) and the bf told my wife that she needed to tell me the truth right away. So maybe she is lying to everyone to make it look like she came clean out of guilt and not out of thinking she would be caught, but that seems unlikely.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> I don't believe so. Her best friend (who I am friends with) told me that my wife turned to her with the details of what happened (looking for advice) and the bf told my wife that she needed to tell me the truth right away.* So maybe she is lying to everyone to make it look like she came clean out of guilt and not out of thinking she would be caught, but that seems unlikely.*


You know her far better than anyone here - I'd tend to agree with you on this. Providing her bf is trustworthy AFAYK

Mr. finger - not so much. He's a goner in my book.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> I don't believe so. Her best friend (who I am friends with) told me that my wife turned to her with the details of what happened (looking for advice) and the bf told my wife that she needed to tell me the truth right away. So maybe she is lying to everyone to make it look like she came clean out of guilt and not out of thinking she would be caught, but that seems unlikely.


She confides in her best friend before she confides in you? So if her best friend told her take it to the grave, you and other man would be slapping each other on the back and having a beer while he and your wife exchanged glances right now?


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> She confides in her best friend before she confides in you? So if her best friend told her take it to the grave, you and other man would be slapping each other on the back and having a beer while he and your wife exchanged glances right now?


I'm sure that telling your spouse that you broke your marriage vows and put your marriage in jeopardy is not an easy thing to do. I don't see it being unreasonable to turn to your best friend for advice on what to do (in this case her best friend also happens to be a counselor). She can't really tell me the details and then ask for advice on how to handle it with her husband. 

And maybe that is what would have happened if her best friend said to never say anything. There's no way to know. She could still have felt enough remorse to tell me anyways or maybe she would have said nothing. There's no way I can tell that. But judging from the best friend telling her to come clean, it seems like the best friend is being a positive influence here.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

Here's the problem, she could be well telling the truth. If she is, then her story sounds very plausible. The problem lies in the fact if something _did_ happen, she would tell you the same story! Which case do you want to believe? The first one of course. Go ahead and believe it if you want to, but can you take chance the first scenario's not true?? I took that chance and believed my WW and got burned big time. Believe her if you want, but your response should be as if you don't.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

You could ask her to take a polygraph and judge her response. If you decide to go this route, call around and find out where and how much so you can be informed for the discussion. You may be surprised at remembered details that emerge. Then again, this may be all there is to it.

Good luck
WD


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

As devil's advocate to the people who said that I shouldn't test the waters by putting them near each other anymore.

If I do put them near other and she does the same thing (or worse) again, then isn't that valuable for me? She already crushed my world, if she did it again then that would be a pretty clear cut signal to move on with my life. If she doesn't then that is a pretty significant thing for rebuilding the trust that has been lost.

Now, if I had reason to believe their affair was anything more - if emotionally they had been really close; talking and hanging out all the time, or physically they had done more or done anything while sober - then I can see how you'd never want to entertain that possibility. But if you look at it as a one time mistake, I guess a part of me believes that everyone deserves a second chance...


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> one thing led to another and *they ended up making out and engaging in some hand play.
> *
> *talked a bit online (since they watch a lot of the same tv shows and such).* So I think there was some emotional connection there but I don't believe that it was romantic - just good friends.
> *
> she still thinks about the friend when I'm not around and misses him. *


If Black Out drunk helps you R, do what you have to do. Oh and your wife was just as horny as the "poor single guy."


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> I'm sure that telling your spouse that you broke your marriage vows and put your marriage in jeopardy is not an easy thing to do. I don't see it being unreasonable to turn to your best friend for advice on what to do (in this case her best friend also happens to be a counselor). She can't really tell me the details and then ask for advice on how to handle it with her husband.
> 
> And maybe that is what would have happened if her best friend said to never say anything. There's no way to know. She could still have felt enough remorse to tell me anyways or maybe she would have said nothing. There's no way I can tell that. But judging from the best friend telling her to come clean, it seems like the best friend is being a positive influence here.


It sounds like you just want to forget about this whole thing, chalk it up to a one-time mistake, and get back to your old life.

For what it's worth, I'm guessing I have a different lifestyle than you, I have kids, I don't get drunk as much, I NEVER get blackout drunk, and I probably have different values and look at things differently, but I don't think it's at all reasonable for my wife to confide more in her best friend than in me. If I find out she is doing that, it will be something I will confront right away.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

HarryDoyle said:


> Here's the problem, she could be well telling the truth. If she is, then her story sounds very plausible. The problem lies in the fact if something _did_ happen, she would tell you the same story! Which case do you want to believe? The first one of course. Go ahead and believe he'd if you want, but can you take chance the first one's not true?? I took that chance and believed my WW and got burned big time. Believe her if you want, but your response should be as if you don't.


Completely see your point here. I put a lot of stock in what she tells her best friend - they have always had a very transparent relationship. Since I am good friends with her best friend I was able to ask her things like "did she say anything happened beyond x" and have full confidence that I was not being lied to. Furthermore, I am also good friends with the other guys best friend and have corroborated the story through him. Now there is a chance that both of them lied to their best friends about what happened or the best friends lied to me, but that seems like one hell of a coverup because there's a much easier thing she could have done.

If she wanted to lie she could have said that "I just passed out, sorry" and from past behavior that would have made complete sense - I wouldn't have been happy about it, but I absolutely would have believed and she knows that. There were no witnesses there, there seems to be no chance that I would have ever found out on my own. Sure she got some prodding from her best friend, but she confessed it to me right away which is significant to me believing her in my book.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> As devil's advocate to the people who said that I shouldn't test the waters by putting them near each other anymore.
> 
> *If I do put them near other and she does the same thing (or worse) again, then isn't that valuable for me? She already crushed my world, if she did it again then that would be a pretty clear cut signal to move on with my life. *If she doesn't then that is a pretty significant thing for rebuilding the trust that has been lost.
> 
> Now, if I had reason to believe their affair was anything more - if emotionally they had been really close; talking and hanging out all the time, or physically they had done more or done anything while sober - then I can see how you'd never want to entertain that possibility. But if you look at it as a one time mistake, I guess a part of me believes that everyone deserves a second chance...


Probably the first thing you've posted that makes a bit of sense, ASSUMING of course that you would KICK HER TO THE CURB and not just rationalize how she was blackout drunk when it happened.

The danger would be that this time the best friend who she confides in more than you would tell her, "oh, you better not tell him it happened twice, take it to the grave with you this time,"
and you wouldn't find out for months or maybe even years.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Bro its only a one time drunken mistake. Why are you making such a big deal out of it? Just sweep it under the rug and forget about it.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> If Black Out drunk helps you R, do what you have to do. Oh and your wife was just as horny as the "poor single guy."


Not disagreeing with you her being as horny as the other guy. And I only said he was single because I've seen on other threads where the first question asked is "is the OM married? if so tell his wife" and I wanted to nip that in the bud.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

keko said:


> Bro its only a one time drunken mistake. Why are you making such a big deal out of it? Just sweep it under the rug and forget about it.


Thanks, that's constructive. Obviously I have everything figured out - I'm just posting on this forum because I'm bored, not because I'm seeking help.


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## shazam (Nov 7, 2011)

ArcticRain said:


> I understand what you are saying. I guess what I am trying to say is that I've been in the situation before where I'm stuck with one of my buddies girls that I am friends with when she is drunk and I do everything I can to make sure she is safe and taken care of. Because as a friend that's what they would expect me to do.
> 
> Now sure, if I instead made a move on them there's a good chance they would just reject me. But there is also a chance that if the situation was right, they might just give in. Blame would absolutely fall on them for giving in, but at the same time they trusted me and would never have expected that from me (maybe some random guy at the bar).


why is your wife getting drunk with strange dudes anyway? if you're just going to make excuses for her, than why are you on here, what's your question?


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> Thanks, that's constructive. Obviously I have everything figured out - I'm just posting on this forum because I'm bored, not because I'm seeking help.


Arctic, keko's post exudes sarcasm thick enough to walk on.

You might want to look up at the meaning of rug sweeping..


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

I guess the takeaway here is:

1) I'm putting too much stock in the "blackout drunk" part of the story and I should remove that from the equation completely. The reason it is hard for me to do that is that I've done some stupid things in that situation so I understand how you can do things that you would normally never do while in that state (again, what you do still has consequences regardless of how inebriated you are).

2) It seems mixed on whether or not my wife is telling me the truth. I already stated why I think she is, but I guess from other experiences people have had / heard of there is reason for me to believe otherwise.

3) I should never hang out with this other guy again. Having my wife near him opens up risk and it sounds like most people don't believe he deserves a second chance.

I'll have to take some time to think about all of this...


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> Completely see your point here. I put a lot of stock in what she tells her best friend - they have always had a very transparent relationship. Since I am good friends with her best friend I was able to ask her things like "did she say anything happened beyond x" and have full confidence that I was not being lied to. Furthermore, I am also good friends with the other guys best friend and have corroborated the story through him. Now there is a chance that both of them lied to their best friends about what happened or the best friends lied to me, but that seems like one hell of a coverup because there's a much easier thing she could have done.


No, it really isn't one hell of a cover up. Seriously, a two to three person cover up is nothing. Read more threads and watch how best friends, neighbors, work partners and family cover tracks. Yes, best male friends.

What is mixed is the people who think more happened, more than hand play and those that don't. I'm pretty sure most would agree, if not all, that you don't have the full story sexual or not.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

If your wife came to you out of guilt and told you the full truth she did the right thing. I applaud her honesty.
But she has been attracted to this guy longer than she has admitted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

shazam said:


> why is your wife getting drunk with strange dudes anyway? if you're just going to make excuses for her, than why are you on here, what's your question?


What I said was she got drunk with our group of mutual friends, not some random guy from the bar.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> Thanks, that's constructive. Obviously I have everything figured out - I'm just posting on this forum because I'm bored, not because I'm seeking help.


So far every constructive advice received excuses from you, victimizing your cheating wife.

It appears you didn't come here for help, rather validation to sweep it under the rug.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Wow....she fvcked this guy. Its probably not the first time. You love her, we get it. But really....she fvcked him. You are getting tt'ed. Wake up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

keko said:


> So far every constructive advice received excuses from you, victimizing your cheating wife.
> 
> It appears you didn't come here for help, rather validation to sweep it under the rug.


I'm not making excuses for her.

What I'm taking away is that nobody here seems to believe that it is possible for someone to get drunk and make a mistake like this. I was just trying to explain that from my experience people do things they would otherwise never do when drunk. It doesn't excuse what they did and they still have to accept responsibility for it (which is what my wife is doing) but it seems like it would make it easier to forgive. If she hooked up with him while sober, I guess I would find that much harder to accept. And what I'm getting from everyone is that I'm being naive for having that perspective.

I don't know how we got sidetracked on the conversation about the friendship between my wife and the other guy. At the end of day she has no desire to be friends with him anymore (has cut all communication with him voluntarily) and I was just trying to explain why she has no desire to be friends with him. It's not an excuse from her to me for what she did. It's her reasoning for why she can no longer be friends with him.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

She can't be friends because they are now lovers. Wake up dude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> 3) I should never hang out with this other guy again. *Having my wife near him opens up risk and it sounds like most people don't believe he deserves a second chance.
> *
> I'll have to take some time to think about all of this...


Assuming what she said is true, it's not a matter of "upping the risk" it's a consequence of some casual acquaintance having had his fingers in my wife while she was my wife. 

Dunno 'bout your tolerance but it's the least I would tolerate.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> I'm not making excuses for her.
> 
> What I'm taking away is that nobody here seems to believe that it is possible for someone to get drunk and make a mistake like this. I was just trying to explain that from my experience people do things they would otherwise never do when drunk. It doesn't excuse what they did and they still have to accept responsibility for it (which is what my wife is doing) but it seems like it would make it easier to forgive. If she hooked up with him while sober, I guess I would find that much harder to accept. And what I'm getting from everyone is that I'm being naive for having that perspective.
> 
> I don't know how we got sidetracked on the conversation about the friendship between my wife and the other guy. At the end of day she has no desire to be friends with him anymore (has cut all communication with him voluntarily) and I was just trying to explain why she has no desire to be friends with him. It's not an excuse from her to me for what she did. It's her reasoning for why she can no longer be friends with him.



You're not the first guy to post the same thing nor the last. We all came here hoping our situation was different, as if we were special. But we're not, neither are you. So stop thinking you and your wife's situation is different.

You're blaming it on the drinks, on the other guy, on the moon, on the weather but never on her. We know you just want to forgive her and act like nothing happened but stop trying to fool us as if we had never experienced infidelity before.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> They referred to his roommates who also came back. Those two guys passed out leaving the friend and my wife alone.
> 
> I wasn't sure what the rules on this forum so hand play felt safe - basically referring to they used their hands to pleasure each other.
> 
> In terms of they realized what they were doing and just stopped - doesn't make me feel better but at some point they sobered up a bit and the part of the brain that associates consequences with actions kicked in and they realized just how wrong what they were doing was.


So they were w**king each other stupid? Oh... brother! 

So definitely no contact. At all. Ever.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

Thoreau said:


> Wow....she fvcked this guy. Its probably not the first time. You love her, we get it. But really....she fvcked him. You are getting tt'ed. Wake up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess it seems odd to me that she would confess without me suspecting anything and then not tell me the whole truth. And yes, I did ask her for all the specific details of what they engaged in.

I guess I could do the polygraph test and see if that holds up. But aside from that I see no real way to ascertain if she did or did not have sex with him. I could accuse her of that, but that seems like it would be significant detriment to any reconciliation if it is not true like she claims.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> What I said was she got drunk with our group of mutual friends, not some random guy from the bar.


You know... that might even be worse, actually.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Alrighty then. You asked her for specific details and she provided them. And you believe. Did she say honest ***** afterwards? 

She left out the part about his penis in her vagina and mouth....wake up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

And that is the only thing that seems "odd" to you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

You seem to want to include this casual acquaintance (to you) back in the group as a 'second' chance. Under which circumstance would you definitely exclude him. 

If he and your wife had secretly:
embraced (sober)
Hugged (sober)
Kissed (sober)
had a date (sober)
Manual penetration/ hand job (sober)
performed oral (drunk)
intercourse (drunk)

I have a feeling you might draw the line next to the last option. Think about this.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> I guess it seems odd to me that she would confess without me suspecting anything and then not tell me the whole truth.


Remember when you were a kid? Remember how you knew you were going to get caught, so you trickle truthed your parents to MINIMIZE the damage?

You said, you are a group of friends. SHE KNEW, at some point, it would get back to you.

She loves you and knows the line that would end your relationship.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> What I'm taking away is that nobody here seems to believe that it is possible for someone to get drunk and make a mistake like this. I* was just trying to explain that from my experience people do things they would otherwise never do when drunk.* It doesn't excuse what they did and they still have to accept responsibility for it (which is what my wife is doing) but it seems like it would make it easier to forgive. If she hooked up with him while sober, I guess I would find that much harder to accept. And what I'm getting from everyone is that I'm being naive for having that perspective.
> 
> *I don't know how we got sidetracked on the conversation about the friendship between my wife and the other guy. *At the end of day she has no desire to be friends with him anymore (has cut all communication with him voluntarily) and I was just trying to explain why she has no desire to be friends with him. It's not an excuse from her to me for what she did. It's her reasoning for why she can no longer be friends with him.


1. Most of us learned that alcohol lowers our inhibitions when we were about 15 years old. So by the time we got married, we didn't get anywhere near "blackout drunk" around members of the opposite sex who were not our spouses. I knew girls who used to fake being drunk so they could fool around and do things they normally wouldn't do and then blame it on being drunk. Again, that works when you're in high school, not when you're married.

2. You posted that your wife said she missed this guy who, according to a different post of yours, she never hung out with alone and was not particularly good friends with anyway. People are reacting to the fact that she missed him after she had "hand play" with him (I can't type "hand play" that without laughing out loud; it might be the stopping point for a 10th-grader, but not for an adult. I think it's funny, even if it's true).

Excessive alcohol consumption lowers inhibitions. Your wife should not get anywhere near blackout drunk ever again. She can't handle it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I think a polygraph might help. And then couple's counselling.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Her reaction to the polgraph alone will tell you a lot.

I tend to agree wit you that nothing else happened but third base is bad enough and l would not be surprisedbat a little more.

One thing I haven't seen suggested is to look at her cell/text records as far back as you can. You can get the texts from some providers. Look for lots of activity to one number and numbers with fake names. If it were me I would think about a gps and a var under the seat of her car for awhile.

Have you always had complete access to her phones, texts, emails, facebook, etc.?

You can see why folks here do not think spouses sould ever go out drinking without each other. Not even with just the girls.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> I guess it seems odd to me that she would confess without me suspecting anything and then not tell me the whole truth. And yes, I did ask her for all the specific details of what they engaged in.
> 
> I guess I could do the polygraph test and see if that holds up. But aside from that I see no real way to ascertain if she did or did not have sex with him. I could accuse her of that, but that seems like it would be significant detriment to any reconciliation if it is not true like she claims.


She was worried someone would out her to you.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> She was worried someone would out her to you.


The man speaks truth.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> I'm not making excuses for her.
> 
> What I'm taking away is that nobody here seems to believe that it is possible for someone to get drunk and make a mistake like this. I was just trying to explain that from my experience people do things they would otherwise never do when drunk. It doesn't excuse what they did and they still have to accept responsibility for it (which is what my wife is doing) but it seems like it would make it easier to forgive. If she hooked up with him while sober, I guess I would find that much harder to accept. And what I'm getting from everyone is that I'm being naive for having that perspective.


The problem is that a 'drunken mistake' is never that. It's series of choices. Which start when she's sober. 

1. You're busy and stay at home. She chooses to go out without you. You've been away for a month. Does she choose to stay with you at home? No
2. She drinks (at a bar?). She chooses to carry on the night - hence she's later than normal
3. She chooses to go back to guy friends house.
4. She chooses to keep drinking till she has a blackout/loses her inhibitions
5. She ends up drunk on a couch, with someone she's close to.

She could make a choice at this point and get in a cab and come home to you...

Who made the first move?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I recall being blackout drunk once.

Actually, no I don't.

Cuz I had blacked out...let alone my johnson worked.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

ArcticRain said:


> Now there is a chance that both of them lied to their best friends about what happened or the best friends lied to me, but that seems like one hell of a coverup because there's a much easier thing she could have done.


 The best friends lying to you is not that far fetched if their goal is for you to allow your wife and the other man to remain in the same social circles with these best friends. Not only is it not far fetched but it is likely. As for calling this thread being titled "Drunken mistake", a mistake is when you accidentally do something wrong. Making out with each other does not accidentally happen.

To answer your question, should you allow them to go to gatherings together. The answer is no, if you value your marraige over your friends. You can still see the friends at smaller gatherings without the other man, just not at gatherings that he will be attending.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I recall being blackout drunk once.
> 
> Actually, no I don't.
> 
> Cuz I had blacked out...let alone my johnson worked.


Glad you're back!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I recall being blackout drunk once.
> 
> Actually, no I don't.
> 
> Cuz I had blacked out...let alone my johnson worked.


You know, *I* got that drunk, once. Why? Well, in order to facilitate my being able to revenge cheat on my wife, I think. Thankfully, it never got to PIV sex, but it nearly did.

*But I remember everything about that evening. I only wish I didn't.*


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

It's ridiculous to think that there wasn't a buildup of flirting and tentative testing of the water so to speak, in the weeks preceding this event.
Lets forget if more happened that night, lets talk about the buildup and why it was that she fell into this sooo easy. Lets talk about the decision she made to go to that house that night. She absolutely went because she was into that guy. 

The bad decision she admitted to is just out of the blue making out and giving a hand job to someone other than her husband. The bad decision she covered up is that it was anticipated and essentially planned for the weeks preceding this night. 

Does she think it was a mistake...yes...why?.... Because she knows he would tell someone at some point....the problem is she was too into it happening to think about it before hand. 

Now is damage control time.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Why is your wife getting drunk with 3 males and ending up at there place?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

You seem to be making excuses for her at every turn. No, don't hang out with these friends anymore (do we really need to tell you that?) and to trust her friend to tell you what really happened is foolish. She is acting like a single woman who has no values, and apparently will suffer no consequences.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Read devastated dad's thread for a worst case scenario of someone who was able to rationalize his wife staying in contact with a man she had been inappropriate with so they wouldn't have to lose their friends. Sobering.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

I didn't read through every post but based on what I did read, if you feel comfortable hanging out with him again, then go ahead. People do make mistakes and if they take responsibility then that is even more reason to trust again. If she does make the "mistake" again wouldn't you want to know the truth about who she is sooner than later? 
Do what you feel comfortable with. Don't let others make you feel this is a bigger deal than what you feel it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## itom72 (Apr 12, 2012)

I hate to write it, but the OP, and the follow-ups to said post, remind me of Bruce Willis' classic line in "The Last Boy Scout", delivered to the guy with whom Willis' wife cheated:

_"Sure, sure, I know... it just happened. Coulda happened to anybody. It was an accident, right? You tripped, slipped on the floor and accidentally stuck your d**k in my wife."_

Open your eyes to the harsh truth. Your wife behaved very much like a single woman on the night in question, and it likely wasn't the first time she's done so. Unless you put your foot down, it won't be the last time, either.

Good luck, ArcticRain. You will need it.


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## Keepin-my-head-up (Jan 11, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

Wow, the wife and friend have pretty good memories for being black out drunk. Out of the 2 times I blacked out, I don't remember a darn thing.

I think keeping in touch with this "friend" is setting yourself up for failure. They already crossed the line and minimized there actions by telling you they only gave each other hand jobs, ...........Whatever. Both of you get an STD test.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> The problem is that a 'drunken mistake' is never that. It's series of choices. Which start when she's sober.
> 
> 1. You're busy and stay at home. She chooses to go out without you. You've been away for a month. Does she choose to stay with you at home? No
> 2. She drinks (at a bar?). She chooses to carry on the night - hence she's later than normal
> ...


It doesn't matter who made the first move. Supposing he made the first move, she still had time and chances to turn him down. 
Funny how she blames it all on him and the drink.

So she was too sober to go to her friend's house but too drunk to realize that hand playing (?? or whatever that is supposed to mean) with another man is wrong? 

I think she was too sober to calculate the whole situation and give you a version of the story for which you are falling.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> That's not true. Having been that drunk before myself (and seen enough other people in that condition), people are still functional in that situation but just act on autopilot with no thought and can end up doing things they would otherwise never do (e.g., punch a wall).
> 
> I'm not saying that as an excuse for their behavior, you still have to deal with the consequences of what you do, but it is an often non-significant factor that contributes to the behavior. And the solution to that is to stop drinking and getting yourself into that state. And to be fair she never offered that as an excuse but when telling what happened, that was part of it.


Aye but she used the term blackout drunk, which in her mind implies exactly what the term means, that she was so drunk she was blacked out, despite the fact that she remembers every thing and was able to kiss then escalate that kiss to rubbing on each other


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

OP take it easy, as you'll find in this forum things can quickly escalate to people suggesting she had sex to full blown affairs.

First question is of what truly happened that night and how it happened. In event of being trickled truth and your minimizing what she's done (i.e. Blaming the man for betraying your trust..well they both did)

If you can schedule a polygraph, set a date then tell her you're both going to it, gauge her reaction, if she has nothing to hide then she'll be cool with it. If she was lying about some aspects of what happened, she'll resist going.

Also how long have they been friends? 

Have they been going out/hanging out together? 

Did they hang out alone at his place or yours?

How often was their contact by text and email etc? 

Is this the first time they've gone out with other people?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Any chance that people noticed their hand play and she decided to confess preemptively ?


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

One of my wifes friends was also my friend. I ask her one time what was up
with my wife . She stood there and said she didn't know and that my wife didn't
tell her anything . Well guess what ? My wife was cheating and this "friend" knew
everything . Point I'm trying to make is cheaters lie and so do there friends !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

I would bet the whole group of friends know everything and they are all gonna stick to the same story .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

And you wanna be friends with this guy ? Hang out with him ?
Why do you wanna be a cuckold ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I would assume at this point that the friend and the wife had this planned, or that they had been building this up for weeks before the night of handjobs took place. I could see the wife having a lot of fun and getting caught up in the moment. However, another poster did pin this one down pretty well when he described the night as a series of choices that led to this happening. Even if she went out with your group of friends, she could have left at a decent hour to come home around 11 pm instead of going to your friend's house with the 2 roommates. What normal wife does that? When she made that choice, she wasn't ripped. Or if the party was at this OM's house, when the party broke up she could have left then and there - but she didn't. No doubt she must have found the friend attractive on some level to want to stay - even if she thought she was in full control. She could have stopped drinking at some point even after she decided to go to the friends house and went home. But she chose to crash there. Again...choices, choices, choices.

Arctic, I really don't get you though. I would never condone my wife going out without me to go drinking with a group of people, and me sitting back at home with the expectation that she would be rolling into the house around 2 am, 3 am or crashing at someone's house. I don't care who the group of people would have been - her friends, your friends or mutual friends. The only time my wife is allowed to stay out that late is if I'm there beside her having fun WITH her. 

Your concept of boundaries suck. Not only because you let your wife go out without you with the expectation that she'd be out well past midnight, but you are seriously considering giving your buddy a free pass after he fingered your wife? Does it really matter whether or not alcohol was involved? Another thing. 

Neither of them were blackout drunk. Also, why is your wife so pi$$ed at your friend? That makes no sense to me at all. You should be the one that is upset and threatening to nuke friendships. But you seem to be the one more open to keeping the group all together while your wife wants nothing to do with this other guy ever again. Honestly, who knows why in your wife's mind at this point. Maybe she's upset because he "took advantage of her" but maybe she's upset because your friend was the one to stop it from going any further while your wife wanted more. Hard to determine right now if it's guilty anger or jilted lover rage...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

movin on said:


> And you wanna be friends with this guy ? Hang out with him ?
> Why do you wanna be a cuckold ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's an absurd thing to say! He doesn't want to be a cuckold. He just wants his wife to be his wife!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

"Drunken mind, Sober thoughts"


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

But he wants to remain friends with the guy ?! Now that's absurd. That is like him saying " hey it's ok you screwed around with my wife"
At least that's what his friend will hear .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

The one thing I learned from TAM is when you catch your wife cheating you tell her to go no contact with the affair partner. I think this is the first thread I've seen we're you have to tell the betrayed spouse to go no contact with the affair partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

movin on said:


> The one thing I learned from TAM is when you catch your wife cheating you tell her to go no contact with the affair partner. I think this is the first thread I've seen we're you have to tell the betrayed spouse to go no contact with the affair partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think he is in shock. Two of the people in his life he thought he could trust? Turns out he couldn't. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

" Again it sucks, but if I'm willing to give my wife a second chance does he deserve one too?"

Yes. 

Try posting your question on another site to see if you can get a less biased answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> I guess it seems odd to me that she would confess without me suspecting anything and then not tell me the whole truth. And yes, I did ask her for all the specific details of what they engaged in.


Because she didn't confess without you expecting anything. Let's look at the facts of your original post, which has two pertinent facts which make your assertion of spontaneous confession unlikely:

1.) She went barhopping with a group of mutual friends, one of which is her AP.

2.) She stayed out to a time which you found remarkable.

Regarding the second point, she knows that her behavior has aroused suspicion, in that she knows that you know that at the very least significant alcohol consumption was involved (as you yourself said that she gets sleepy when drunk and you though she slept it off at a friend's house), and that she came home at a time well beyond normal. So, she has to explain it.

That comes to the second point. The group of mutual friends. This isn't like a case where she went to a bar and picked up/got picked up by a random guy that she'll probably never see again. She knows that association between you and the AP are certain to occur numerous times in the future. That means that she had two options:

1.) Keep quiet and hope that no one ever found out

2.) Sanitize the story to limit the fallout and disseminate as needed

That's why she went to her best friend first with the same story that she told. So that when she needed proof, she had an third party to back her up. Again, it may be that she's telling the truth, but I don't buy the alcohol story or that he was purely the aggressor. I also agree with most of the posters in here in that you've completely rugswept your wife's behavior in that you've made it have no consequences. That's totally your choice but don't be surprised when, having realized what she needs to do to get away with it, she does it again with someone you don't know.



ArcticRain said:


> I guess I could do the polygraph test and see if that holds up. But aside from that I see no real way to ascertain if she did or did not have sex with him. I could accuse her of that, but that seems like it would be significant detriment to any reconciliation if it is not true like she claims.


You're really not getting it. Her story is not jiving. You're contending that she was drunk enough to let your "friend" get a hand down her pants, but sober enough that she was able to choose to not let him between her legs formally? Those two degrees of rationality are incompatible. So either she willfully, and with full volition, did the one or she did the other while drunk. You have to decide which is more likely. Personally, my money's on door number two.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

He didn't betray their friendship.

Men want to have sex with all women they know.

It's your job to operate your marriage knowing this fact.

Let your wife believe it's not the case, but you are making a major mistake if you believe that's not the case.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Hicks said:


> He didn't betray their friendship.
> 
> Men want to have sex with all women they know.
> 
> ...


OP...if hear nothing else, hear what is posted above.

The vast vast vast majority of us have this tendency as men. Sugar coating it is a mistake.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Let me see if stating the opinion in a different way might help......

Arctic, many affairs are the result of "grooming." Sometimes subconcious, but also consciously. That your wife
1. stays out late
2. gets stinking drunk
3. finds herself alone with one man in particular.......

means that she has violated some very reasonable boundaries that married people should observe.

I certainly remember in high school, my parents tried very hard to make that I 
1. didn't stay out late
2. didn't get stinking drunk
3. didn't find myself alone with one guy..........

These are the boundaries that reasonable people impose upon themselves when they are adults.

But if the scenario that you describe of your wife were truly "unplanned", they could be the beginning of a slippery slope with this guy.

So either possibility; ie, conscious/ intentional vs. subconscious / unintentional do not bode well for the future if your wife insists that she has "every right to socialise with whomever she damn well pleases"...... which is the way most free spirits....oh, I mean cheaters put it.

the problem with allowing your wife to be around this guy again is that
1) it could happen again 
2) or worse, it could escalate
3) even if nothing happens, you're left with wondering and you may find yourself becoming snide with her; making little (not so funny) jokes about her "liaison" (I'm sure the insertion of a French word here should make it racy) or going into overdrive analysing everything to the nth degree.......which will make you unattractive to her anyway.

Even if you were to ever give this person a second chance to be around your wife, I would first want him to experience the terror that he made a mistake and that the next chance he gets to hang out with someone's attractive wife - whether yours or someone else's -- he better be sure to behave himself.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> That's totally your choice but don't be surprised when, having realized what she needs to do to get away with it, she does it again with someone you don't know.
> 
> 
> Her story is not jiving. You're contending that she was drunk enough to let your "friend" get a hand down her pants, but sober enough that she was able to choose to not let him between her legs formally? .


If she is going to do it again, he should know this about her as soon as possible since that is a bigger issue they should deal with. Keeping her "sheltered" isn't going to fix the issue. 

Her story jives to me. Her story jives to him. They are past it and I don't see it helping the OP by rehashing and making him dout her. 
His question was regarding wether or not to forgive the other man and continue to hang out in the group. I don't think he is coming back to this thread after his question turned into "std tests" and so on...:scratchhead:


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> I guess it seems odd to me that she would confess without me suspecting anything and then not tell me the whole truth. And yes, I did ask her for all the specific details of what they engaged in.
> 
> I guess I could do the polygraph test and see if that holds up. But aside from that I see no real way to ascertain if she did or did not have sex with him. *I could accuse her of that, but that seems like it would be significant detriment to any reconciliation if it is not true like she claims*.


It seems to me like you want to reconcile and that if you did find out that you wife did more with the OM, it would complicate this.

Maybe you can move not knowing what happened that night. If that's the case than I hope it works out for you, I really do. What about the next time something like this happens... You don't think they'll be a next time. You didn't think there would be a this time either, but here we are...


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> If she is going to do it again, he should know this about her as soon as possible since that is a bigger issue they should deal with. Keeping her "sheltered" isn't going to fix the issue.
> 
> Her story jives to me. Her story jives to him. They are past it and I don't see it helping the OP by rehashing and making him dout her.
> His question was regarding wether or not to forgive the other man and continue to hang out in the group. I don't think he is coming back to this thread after his question turned into "std tests" and so on...:scratchhead:


If a heavy smoker comes to me, tells me that a particular brand of syrup isn't helping to reduce the amount of blood he's coughing up and wants to know if there's something else that he should try, I don't quote him brands. I tell him to quit smoking and go see the fvcking doctor because he very probably has cancer. He doesn't want to believe that; he want to believe that his case is different. It won't make him any less dead should he ignore the problem.

The problem in this case isn't the "friend", given that he gave no vows whatsoever requiring the fidelity of the OP or his wife. Which culpable party did? That's right, the wife. So shut your jib while rational people are trying to save this guy years of pain and misery.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> Because she didn't confess without you expecting anything. Let's look at the facts of your original post, which has two pertinent facts which make your assertion of spontaneous confession unlikely:
> 
> 1.) She went barhopping with a group of mutual friends, one of which is her AP.
> 
> ...





JMGrey said:


> If a heavy smoker comes to me, tells me that a particular brand of syrup isn't helping to reduce the amount of blood he's coughing up and wants to know if there's something else that he should try, I don't quote him brands. I tell him to quit smoking and go see the fvcking doctor because he very probably has cancer. He doesn't want to believe that; he want to believe that his case is different. It won't make him any less dead should he ignore the problem.
> 
> The problem in this case isn't the "friend", given that he gave no vows whatsoever requiring the fidelity of the OP or his wife. Which culpable party did? That's right, the wife. So shut your jib while rational people are trying to save this guy years of pain and misery.



shut my jib?? Well then I better listen to you since you obviously know everything. Thank you for saving me.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Certainly "blackout drunk" also means "penis out of action". What did she do? Flog him with a wet noodle all night? Come on.

They were not as drunk as claimed.

And dude, HE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> I guess it seems odd to me that she would confess without me suspecting anything and then not tell me the whole truth. And yes, I did ask her for all the specific details of what they engaged in.
> 
> I guess I could do the polygraph test and see if that holds up. But aside from that I see no real way to ascertain if she did or did not have sex with him. I could accuse her of that, but that seems like it would be significant detriment to any reconciliation if it is not true like she claims.


She confessed because she feared it would come out ahead of her being able to manage the story to her benefit.

There were WITNESSES, for God's sake. Plus, maybe your "friend" might suddenly remember where he left his conscience. She couldn't risk you hearing, "Hey, sorry bro, but I banged your wife over the arm of my couch last night. And she started it, by the way. Told me how bad you are in bed, and how she needed a real man."

WORSE things than this have been discovered by husbands all over this site. By women who nearly always said first, "We're just friends," and "it was only a kiss".

Rugsweeping is a very dangerous pastime.


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

If you believe the story then fine but I think you should make sure it doesn't happen again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

He may have been your friend but he isn't your friend anymore
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Kermitty said:


> Her story jives to me. Her story jives to him. They are past it and I don't see it helping the OP by rehashing and making him dout her.


If he was past anything he wouldn't be asking, the equivalent of a room full of strangers, what he should do.

Blackouts Caused by Alcohol or Drugs-Topic Overview

This is what I have ALWAYS understood as blackout drunk:


> Topic Overview
> 
> *A blackout means not being able to remember what happened when you were drinking or using drugs.* Blackouts are not the same as passing out. Passing out occurs when you lose consciousness. You don't pass out when you have a drug or alcohol blackout. In a blackout, you lose short-term memories. A blackout is a type of amnesia.
> *
> During a blackout, you may function normally. People around you may not notice anything different about your behavior.* You might do the things you normally do, such as eat dinner, wash dishes, or watch television, but later you have no memory of doing them.


http://www.drpursch.com/articles/36_MorningAfter.pdf


> You are angry because an alcoholic has done you dirt:
> *On the morning after, he/she claims to have no memory
> of something he/she did the night before.* Or worse yet,
> you yourself are an alcoholic or a problem drinker who
> ...


This is my definition and quite a few others. So, no, her story doesn't jibe with me. It has a ton of minimizing in it. Yes, even if she was 100% honest, contrite and apologetic. My wife did pretty much the same thing, in the contrition department, after she was CAUGHT and I CAUGHT her minimizing as well,

She may have been "sloppy drunk", but she didn't have a blackout. Apparently, you and the OP have different definitions.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Kermitty said:


> " Again it sucks, but if I'm willing to give my wife a second chance does he deserve one too?"
> 
> Yes.
> 
> ...


You would seriously - SERIOUSLY - put your wife and their affair partner BACK TOGETHER?


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> If he was past anything he wouldn't be asking, the equivalent of a room full of strangers, what he should do.


I was under the impression he was asking if he should forgive his friend as he forgave his wife. That was his question at the end of his post. I don't see where he was saying he hasn't gotten past what his wife did and needed advice there. My mistake.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

Kermitty said:


> I was under the impression he was asking if he should forgive his friend as he forgave his wife. That was his question at the end of his post. I don't see where he was saying he hasn't gotten past what his wife did and needed advice there. My mistake.


Yes, my original intent to post here was to ask the question of whether it is reasonable to forgive a friend as you would your spouse. Somehow we got sidetracked onto my relationship with my wife instead.

As for the advice regarding my relationship with my wife - I do appreciate everyone giving me their advice. However, I believe that I have done enough due diligence and research (e.g., chat and text records) to believe that my wife is telling the truth with regards to what happened (specifically that there was no oral or intercourse). I think everyone is getting hung up on the blackout drunk (and maybe blackout is not the right phrase, sloppy drunk might be better) think but as I have stated many times my wife made it clear that she does not blame alcohol for what happened - she takes full responsibility for it. We are seeing a marriage counselor and we are working on our issues together.

It also appears that people don't understand why I would let my wife go out alone with our group of friends and party by herself. Well normally we always go out together with our friends (which is a mixed group). Every now and then though one of us doesn't want to and the other goes out alone with the group. You can chalk it up to different lifestyle choices but I see no problem with my wife going out to party with a group of friends - after all one generally trusts their friends. Why does she have to stay home on one night because I have to work and can't go out? We don't have kids, we like to go out and have fun. And like I said the vast majority of the time we go out together.

My wife has done all the right things after what happened. She came clean to me right away, initiated no contact on her own and from what I have seen exhibited true remorse and regret at what happened. With regards to being drunk, she never used it as an excuse - I think I may have used it to help lessen the blow of what took place.

I've read many of the stories here and I get the sense that the majority of posters on here seem to be worst case scenarios. Given the number of affairs that take place, not every single case is documented on this site. I think the worst of the worst make it onto here because those are the people most in need of support. In this case, I believe my wife and I are on the road to recovery from what happened and if that was it I wouldn't have said anything here. I was just curious what people thought about the other side (the friend) since I've found it hard to find any information on that on the internet (even in those scenarios everything focuses on you and your spouse). Losing a good friend isn't as hard as losing your spouse, but it is still a hard thing.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Kermitty said:


> I was under the impression he was asking if he should forgive his friend as he forgave his wife. That was his question at the end of his post. I don't see where he was saying he hasn't gotten past what his wife did and needed advice there. My mistake.


 If we all agreed, these threads would be unhelpful, boring and stupid. You could be 100% correct.

Still, he mentioned a red flag. A SEVERE red flag that she missed a guy that she had *snicker* handplay with. The same guy who had minimal contact with his wife, according to her of course. Now, He's asking if he can hang out with the group, hang out with this guy, be friends and should he forgive the guy if he forgave his woman.

If he was past it, IMO, he wouldn't mention that severe red flag. Also, as harsh as it is, he buried his head in the sand. Where does forgiveness mean you interact with someone that hurt you?

As someone said earlier:
You don't put drugs in front of an drug addict.
You don't put alcohol in front of an alcoholic.
You don't put the AP in front of the Wayward Spouse.

How many people fall off the wagon who say "but I knew I could handle it?"

Oh and make sure you reread his various posts. This was building just from his own words. They were friends because they watched the same TV shows, but contact online and minimal. I work a job were people use facebook for hook ups in other states. His online minimization was sad and naive at the same time.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Touch my husbands body inappropriately with any part of your anatomy drunk or not and you're out of my life......forever.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Arctic,
Good luck then. It seems like you do have it figured out. For the record, I have never been cheated on in any of my relationships nor have I been the cheater. So everything I wrote is not from the jilted lover POV. I think your boundaries suck, and you will get burned again - sooner or later. Also, I don't think you truly understand what marriage is all about. I'm also guessing that you and your wife are in the minority among your friends and that most of them are single. You'll learn - eventually... But that's just my opinion.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> If we all agreed, these threads would be unhelpful, boring and stupid. You could be 100% correct.
> 
> Still, he mentioned a red flag. A SEVERE red flag that she missed a guy that she had *snicker* handplay with. The same guy who had minimal contact with his wife, according to her of course. Now, He's asking if he can hang out with the group, hang out with this guy, be friends and should he forgive the guy if he forgave his woman.
> 
> ...


One of the text messages between my fiancé and his EA from her is : "You led me on."

To me that says, that these people are in situations that they cannot control. My fiancé has since changed his story, one minute, he initiated the kiss and she rejected him; the next, she rejected the kiss and he rejected her......

Hookay, one thing is certain, I have seen the text message, date and time stamped. And that says to me that these "just friends" arrangements very easily get out of control no matter who is pursuing them.

Arctic, if you want to have to deal with a text from this man stating that your wife led him on....... well,just continue with the line of thought that you have here.......


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> Yes, my original intent to post here was to ask the question of whether it is reasonable to forgive a friend as you would your spouse. Somehow we got sidetracked onto my relationship with my wife instead.
> 
> As for the advice regarding my relationship with my wife - I do appreciate everyone giving me their advice. However, I believe that I have done enough due diligence and research (e.g., chat and text records) to believe that my wife is telling the truth with regards to what happened (specifically that there was no oral or intercourse). I think everyone is getting hung up on the blackout drunk (and maybe blackout is not the right phrase, sloppy drunk might be better) think but as I have stated many times my wife made it clear that she does not blame alcohol for what happened - she takes full responsibility for it. We are seeing a marriage counselor and we are working on our issues together.
> 
> ...


I hope you're right, I think a lot of us just find it hard to believe that with the progression of things between two adults, flirting to kissing, kissing to heavy petting, heavy petting to hand job, that they would stop at hand job. That's what two teenagers on their parents' couch would do, not two intoxicated adults.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> I hope you're right, I think a lot of us just find it hard to believe that with the progression of things between two adults, flirting to kissing, kissing to heavy petting, heavy petting to hand job, that they would stop at hand job. That's what two teenagers on their parents' couch would do, not two intoxicated adults.


I completely understand that and that was my first thought as well. However, I believe I did my due diligence to learn what happened that night and do believe that it stopped there. They were drunk and that factored into them starting to make out but once it got to point of them touching each other her alarm bells went off that she was doing something really wrong and she stopped it. And then she came and told me the next day.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I'm not going to comment on you and you're wife. You feel things between you are headed in the right direction and ultimately that is all that matters. In regards to your friend however, you can forgive him but still not associate with him. And that is my advice to you. Regardless of who initiated the incident there is obviously attraction between your wife and your friend. I strongly advise you to cut him out of your lives from this point on. Otherwise it demonstrates you don't value your wife and it lowers your value in both their eyes.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> Yes, my original intent to post here was to ask the question of whether it is reasonable to forgive a friend as you would your spouse.


Yep and you received multiple answers in the negative.




> Somehow we got sidetracked onto my relationship with my wife instead.


 You took it there between the answers.


> It also appears that people don't understand why I would let my wife go out alone with our group of friends and party by herself. Well normally we always go out together with our friends (which is a mixed group). Every now and then though one of us doesn't want to and the other goes out alone with the group. You can chalk it up to different lifestyle choices but I see no problem with my wife going out to party with a group of friends - after all one generally trusts their friends.


 This makes a decent argument when there is NO INFIDELITY involved. This paragraph isn't your marriage anymore.



> Why does she have to stay home on one night because I have to work and can't go out?


She got involved in sexual contact and kissing when you were not there. Again, this isn't your previous well known marriage.

Good luck, you are getting counseling and I hope it works out for your sake.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

ArcticRain,
Okay. Let's say this is 'a drunken kistake' and not a series of choices where your wife took the wrong one each time.

The fact your were asking whether you/she can hang out with your [ex-]friend gave the impression that you took her act of betrayal lightly. 

What steps have you both taken to make sure this will never happen again? Where's the due diligence for the future?

The fact that you are comfortable, so soon after what happened, with her going out on her own again with the same group of friends is, frankly alarming. I bet the singles outnumber the married couples in your group. 

You're not two singles in a group anymore and you both have to behave accordingly.

If I have to work late, my wife won't go out without me (**** that I'm working for both of us). It's no biggie. There'll be other nights. Then, we'd go together as a married couple.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> I hope you're right, I think a lot of us just find it hard to believe that with the progression of things between two adults, flirting to kissing, kissing to heavy petting, heavy petting to hand job, that they would stop at hand job. That's what two teenagers on their parents' couch would do, not two intoxicated adults.


When would they stop at a hand job? Why, when someone else walks into the room and says: 


> "Hey, guys, have you seen the remote control for the...? Ooops! Sorry, guys! Didn't know you were busy!"


Then comes the damage limitation control by the WS...


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> ArcticRain,
> Okay. Let's say this is 'a drunken kistake' and not a series of choices where your wife took the wrong one each time.
> 
> The fact your were asking whether you/she can hang out with your [ex-]friend gave the impression that you took her act of betrayal lightly.
> ...


To clarify, she would not be going out anymore with that friend group unless I was there. And aside from interactions with the other guy in those situations, she would still maintain no-contact with him. 

Most of the people in that group are not married, but are in relationships along with a few single people.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

ArcticRain said:


> You can chalk it up to different lifestyle choices but I see no problem with my wife going out to party with a group of friends - after all one generally trusts their friends.


Is this still your mindset or has it changed? As far as forgiving the friend and continuing to socialize with him,I know I personally couldn't do it.If I was drinking around him,I know for sure there would be some type of confrontation no matter how much I might say I forgave.In all probability I wouldn't enjoy the socializing with him around as I would always be watching for any interaction between them.Good luck.

ETA-Never saw previous post,sorry.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> To clarify, she would not be going out anymore with that friend group unless I was there. And aside from interactions with the other guy in those situations, she would still maintain no-contact with him.


I'm curious, is the counselor or your wife pushing this idea? My wife had an EA and I have no desire to be ANYWHERE near that dude. AFAIK, read, snooped, searched and discovered there was no sexual contact. Before you go there, nope it isn't insecurities, it is about the "addiction" mindset I mentioned earlier.



> Most of the people in that group are not married, but are in relationships along with a few single people.


Yes, that means most are single. You can't choose your family, but you can choose your friends.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Good luck Arctic. I guess your original question got railroaded by other stuff.

No you can't be friends with that guy..even that group of friends. They must have noticed what was happening between them. Like said before, people don't just jump each other suddenly, there must have been some sexual tension build up for a while culminating in the rubplay.

Fact is your wife cannot blame drunkenness for this. She knew what she was doing from kiss to escalation. What drove her to do it..more importantly if the cause is not rooted out..what's to stop it happening again?

Good luck to you.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

"hand job" = minimization


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> "hand job" = minimization


Or foreplay that was interrupted by a third party discovering them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Or foreplay that was interrupted by a third party discovering them?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would be the only explanation, given their supposedly inebriated state, for stopping short of actual intercourse. From a probability standpoint, I'm with Machi on this, it was damage control.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> "hand job" = minimization


Well they were drinking. Maybe her arm got tired?


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## catfan (Jan 12, 2013)

*Re: Re: Drunken mistake*



Hicks said:


> He didn't betray their friendship.
> 
> Men want to have sex with all women they know.
> 
> ...


Beware of all men then...


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

catfan said:


> Beware of all men then...


All men in principle, all single men in particular. Sure, they may not be pieces of sh!t that like to tempt married women, but why take a chance?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

ArcticRain said:


> I guess the takeaway here is:
> 
> 1) I'm putting too much stock in the "blackout drunk" part of the story and I should remove that from the equation completely. The reason it is hard for me to do that is that I've done some stupid things in that situation so I understand how you can do things that you would normally never do while in that state (again, what you do still has consequences regardless of how inebriated you are).
> 
> ...


Sorry if I'm late to the party, but being in the presence of this a-hole again, together with your wife, will make you feel about as tall as a mouse. Don't underestimate that humiliation. Do not even consider being around this dude again. 

Regarding the group of friends - go hang out with subsets of them, without that guy around.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

I get the feeling that there are parts to this story that the OP has ommited. I mean, if most Husbands had been told by there Wife that she kissed and gave/got a hand job from one of their single, male freinds, I would imagine the sh*t would hit the fan and even after calming down and some time had passed, I would think they would still be a little wound up when posting her. Where as, this OP is calm and even keeled no matter what we have told him about how TT works and it's likeley that he hasn't been told the full 100% of what actually happend between his Wife and the OM. I think perhaps that we have been TT'd to some extent on this one...


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I get the feeling that there are parts to this story that the OP has ommited. I mean, if most Husbands had been told by there Wife that she kissed and gave/got a hand job from one of their single, male freinds, I would imagine the sh*t would hit the fan and even after calming down and some time had passed, I would think they would still be a little wound up when posting her. Where as, this OP is calm and even keeled no matter what we have told him about how TT works and it's likeley that he hasn't been told the full 100% of what actually happend between his Wife and the OM. I think perhaps that we have been TT'd to some extent on this one...


Nobody is TT'ing you. As I mentioned this happened a month ago and my wife and I have been working on our issues since then. So yes my attitude towards my wife is very calm and even keeled now because the sh*tstorm already happened a while ago. Since then I have forgiven her based on her actions after what happened and when you forgive someone I believe you have to let go of what happened (sure it hurts now and then when I think about it, but reopening the wound over and over doesn't help anything). Now our relationship is going well enough that I'm trying to understand if there is a world where you can forgive the friend as well.

I know how TT works and short of doing a polygraph test I have done everything else I could do determine the truth of what happened that night. And I believe 100% that what I know about that night is the truth (which is very important to me because had it gone any further - to oral or sex - then I don't believe I would have reconciled - although one can never say for sure until they are put in that position).

I do understand and appreciate where all of you are coming from in terms of making sure that I am getting all the information and not getting deceived by my wife. I really do. But I have done enough diligence in terms of talking to people, surveillance and so on to truly believe that I am not being deceived here.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> And I believe 100% that what I know about that night is the truth (which is very important to me because had it gone any further - to oral or sex - then I don't believe I would have reconciled - although one can never say for sure until they are put in that position).


Which could be why you got the report that you did, again I do truly hope you're right. Can you say what led you to believe the story is complete?


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

I do not understand why you do not insist on a polygraph. If your wife was telling you the truth I am sure she would be than happy to prove it and put your mind at ease. This is huge what she engaged in and you need to have all of the truth if possible. Wouldn't it make the both of you feel better knowing the truth?


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> Which could be why you got the report that you did, again I do truly hope you're right. Can you say what led you to believe the story is complete?


1) She confessed the story to me of her own accord the next morning. I hadn't even asked her at that point why she had come home so late or anything.

2) I went through all of her email, chat, text and cell records for communication with this other guy. The frequency of their communication was minimal, they would chat every now and then (twice a month) about mundane things like TV shows or something but never anything indicating any sort of romantic relationship.

3) Prior to this night she had never hung out with him 1:1. Along those lines, there was never any strange behavior from her such as "working late" or needing to go out without me.

4) In the months prior to this night she had hung out with our group of friends while he was there and I was not approximately 5 times. Every time she returned home at a normal time. Additionally one of the members of the group is a very, very close friend of mine was there on all those occasions and would have told me if anything inappropriate between the two of them took place (he was not there on the night the affair took place).

5) She told the story of what happened to her best friend (who does not live in the state so is not part of the friend group here) because she was looking for advice on what to do. From past experience I know she is completely honest with her best friend. Furthermore her best friend was once in a position where her SO cheated on her. The best friend encouraged her to tell me the truth and since I am friends with her she corroborated privately to me that no oral or sex took place.

6) I confronted the friend directly afterwards and started by telling him that my wife admitted to them having sex. His reaction and denial of that ever taking place was convincing enough for me to believe him.

The only red flag that I had mentioned was that a few days after the revelation I saw a communication between my wife and her best friend that she "missed the guy". I immediately confronted her on it and we had a discussion. They were friends prior to this happening and she was suffering the withdrawal from a loss of a friend. Despite this message, she never violated her no contact rule (which she suggested we have even before I did). Yes she did a horrible thing for our marriage and she understands that, but I also understand how it can suck to completely lose a friend. Since that event, I haven't seen any other red flags.

Yes, I probably could have asked her to take a polygraph test (and that might have been the right thing to do but I did not know that at the time). However, given that we have moved on since then it seems like it would be a significant setback in our progress for me to ask her to take one now. Essentially I would be stating that the last month of progress is all based on a lie because I said that I believed her but really I never did. It seems like it would do more harm than good now.


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

2) I went through all of her email, chat, text and cell records for communication with this other guy. The frequency of their communication was minimal, they would chat every now and then (twice a month) about mundane things like TV shows or something but never anything indicating any sort of romantic relationship.




Then why is she telling her friend she misses him ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> To clarify, she would not be going out anymore with that friend group unless I was there. And aside from interactions with the other guy in those situations, she would still maintain no-contact with him.
> 
> Most of the people in that group are not married, but are in relationships along with a few single people.


Listen arcticrain,

A real take away would be that the fact of the matter is, your wife cannot go out anymore, *period* No more girls night out, no more sleep overs, no more luncheons with her male friends, no more friends of the opposite sex etc etc. 

Your wife lost all privileges by clearly showing that she has NO respect for boundaries of a married person. Her drinking, her behavior with other friends, and the inability of her making rational and reasonable conclusions on not to drink and be near occasions of cheating on your husband clearly show that she is not in the mindset for being a committed married person who LEAVES and never returns to the SINGLE life which ends on the day you are married.

If this is too hard of a demand for her then you will CLEARLY be rug sweeping this all under the rug. Rug sweeping is one of the most common mistakes on the path of reconciliation. Your marriage is forever tainted, she has forever changed the marriage by eating from the forbidden tree so now you must ask her to change and request 

1. Full transparency, no cell passwords, all facebook and email passwords
2. No more GNO (girls night out)
3. No more OSF (opposite sex friends)
4. No more sleep overs
5. No more hanging out with ANYONE related to those friends who exacerbate these kind of occassions

You need to tell her "i need you to do this for me to even CONSIDER reconciling with you, if not its straight up divorce" and don't go back on your word.


If she takes more than 10 seconds to adhere to these boundaries then forget it, you are not her love, her life, her prize, you are a convenience that is being inconvenient.




Hopefully you can recover, and the best advice is, stick around, lurk and read threads of other people so you can understand how many of these cheaters speak and act in the same way and how many betrayed spouses think and act in the same WRONG way over and over again.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

If you are okay, then move on. Keep a bit of vigil.
I am a bit not comfortable in her confessing to her friend that she misses the guy.sshould she not tell you this?
Don't you see that transparency is missing?


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Listen arcticrain,
> 
> A real take away would be that the fact of the matter is, your wife cannot go out anymore, *period* No more girls night out, no more sleep overs, no more luncheons with her male friends, no more friends of the opposite sex etc etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks. To be clear about what she agreed to her as part of our reconciliation:

1) No contact with the other guy
2) No drinking if she goes out with her girl friends (and needs to tell me when she will be back and I have to approve)
3) No going out with our mutual friend group without me

She agreed to all of those without hesitation for however long I needed (which I told her may be forever). When I talk now about hanging out with the mutual friend group it would always be BOTH of us if we go.


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## ArcticRain (Mar 22, 2013)

AngryandUsed said:


> If you are okay, then move on. Keep a bit of vigil.
> I am a bit not comfortable in her confessing to her friend that she misses the guy.sshould she not tell you this?
> Don't you see that transparency is missing?


It's a little tricky because her friend is a counselor, so in many ways she is using her in that regard as well. So that's why I let it go. I could always ask her to find a counselor here instead, but I agree with the values and morals of her friend so it seems okay to me. I assume there are things you would tell your counselor independently that you wouldn't tell your spouse.

I also assume at that time she was going through some amount of withdrawal with the no contact. I mean, to some extent the two of them were friends before all this happened. I won't lie - it was definitely hard for me to read that and that's why I confronted her about it and we had a long discussion.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> 1) She confessed the story to me of her own accord the next morning. I hadn't even asked her at that point why she had come home so late or anything.
> 
> 2) I went through all of her email, chat, text and cell records for communication with this other guy. The frequency of their communication was minimal, they would chat every now and then (twice a month) about mundane things like TV shows or something but never anything indicating any sort of romantic relationship.
> 
> ...


Good job with #6, that was clever. Ok, I'd probably be sold too. Good job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't know. Adults who make out while alone together (opportunity) have sex. Cheaters lie. I don't believe for one second that they stopped. Perhaps they both regretted it right away and agreed on a story. But I don't believe they stopped. Have you considered a polygraph?


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Hey, your the only one who has to live with your wife after she's done this. If your cool with it great.

For me, it seems she has a crush on someone else while married to you. If you weren't married she would explore this other relationship. For me that's a problem. That alone is why I would advise never forgiving and forgetting what he has done.

Withdrawl from the loss of a friendship of talking about tv shows occasionally? Ha! Not buying it. This bothered you for a reason. Men these days tend to be beta with their wives don't let this keep you from listening to your gut instinct.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

I understand the urgency in getting past it.

So when you look back at this the next time, here are some things to think about -

Do not underestimate what would have gotten back to you from other people. Not necessarily seeing hands down pants, but all the precursors. Controlling the story is always better than interrogation for exactly the reason you gave to us: that her coming forward first makes what she says believable. 

Telling the friend first - ugh. Also the right strategy for back-up on the story. But take note of "friend before husband".

Saying that she missed the guy - holy smokes. Instead of saying she hopes she never sees him again, and never wants to hear his name because of what happened. 

Lastly, you are indicating that you and the wife are working on your issues (plural) which makes me think we do not have all the pertinent information to put this in context.


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

ArcticRain said:


> 1) She confessed the story to me of her own accord the next morning. I hadn't even asked her at that point why she had come home so late or anything.
> 
> 2) I went through all of her email, chat, text and cell records for communication with this other guy. The frequency of their communication was minimal, they would chat every now and then (twice a month) about mundane things like TV shows or something but never anything indicating any sort of romantic relationship.
> 
> ...


I don't see how having her take a poly now would cause any problems. 

1. It has not been very long since the incident.
2. If she is remorcefull she would want to help you rebuilding your trust.
3. You had (and still have) a very difficult situation. It's not easy to make all the correct calls right away. If she wants to make you work as a M again she certanly would understand.
4. You seem certain there is nothing else but there is always that slight doubt. I Think it would help you greatly to get that doubt as small as possible. It might come back and haunt you a few months, years along.
5. She is the one that ****ed upp. She needs to make all the effort. A poly, if she has come compleatly clean, is good for her to. I asume she wants to help you as much as possible and this is a very good way for her to do that.

To me it it seems that you are so afraid of causing any ripples that might have her leaving that you try to stick your head in the sand and smooth everything over. 

She is the one that caused this. 
She is the one that needs to do the heavy lifting. 
She is the one that needs to rebuild your trust for her.
She is the one that needs to do everything possible to ease your problems
She is the one that, as much as feasable, needs to prove herself.
She is the one that needs to own it.

It's never to late to demand a poly. Check out Granny_7's thread. She had her H take a poly after 23 years. Both of them was realy helped by it. She got confirmation that he was telling her the truth. He was helped a lot because the trust issue was always there even after 23 years. 

So if she is telling you the truth she will prove it to you by taking a poly and that will ease her burden. You will get helped a lot, specially for the future. If she has not told you the truth you will be facing trouble but at least you will know.

Either way it is a win for you and hopefully a win for her by doing it.

*It is never to late to do a poly!*


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

If they weren't that good friends like you said, why would she miss him? (Or am I mising up with another thread ?)

Could they have had other forms of communication ?(chat apps on phones ?)


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> If they weren't that good friends like you said, why would she miss him? (Or am I mising up with another thread ?)
> 
> Could they have had other forms of communication ?(chat apps on phones ?)


Her missing this guy is out of place. It doesn't make sense that she would miss him, and miss him so much that she had to tell her girlfriend about it. "I really miss talking to him, every other week we would chat briefly online about CSI. I really miss him."

Another thing that bothers me is that BOTH of them were so drunk - I just don't buy it. One or the other took advantage of the situation. They were not equally drunk. Either your wife made the move on this guy, or this guy made the move on her. Of course, there is no excusing either of them, regardless of who made the first move, but one of them was not AS DRUNK as the other and actually orchestrated it a bit. 

_"2) I went through all of her email, chat, text and cell records for communication with this other guy. The frequency of their communication was minimal, *they would chat every now and then (twice a month) about mundane things like TV shows *or something but never anything indicating any sort of romantic relationship."​_
Something I learned long time ago - if a story does not make sense, it probably is a lie. If a story is unbelievable - don't believe it. Too many things with this story don't make sense.

Also, you sell yourself short by not exposing this guy to the whole group of friends. Let them know what a pos is hanging out with them. Let them be your eyes and ears. Let him suffer the consequences of his actions. It does not reflect poorly on you - it reflects poorly on your wife and on him.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> 5) She told the story of what happened to her best friend (who does not live in the state so is not part of the friend group here) because she was looking for advice on what to do.The best friend encouraged her to tell me the truth


So, she didn't actually come clean, she was TOLD to come clean. Yes, there is a difference.


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## NewM (Apr 11, 2012)

I don't think you or your wife or you+your wife should ever hang around this guy or with this group if he is present.This guy played with your wife and you want to hang out with him.Most people wouldn't want to ever see him again,let alone hang out with him.


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

What does she miss, "The hand sex"?????? *OR*


> the (twice a month) about mundane things like TV shows or something but never anything indicating any sort of romantic relationship.


" 

I can't see how much of that worth missing. They had sexual contact of their own free will, I don't see how you can buy into there collaborated story. HE IS NO LONGER A FRIEND. FRIENDS DON'T "FINGER F$%K" ANOTHER FRIENDS SPOUSE. A drunken mistake and now a sober lie.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

TOMTEFAR said:


> It's never to late to demand a poly. Check out Granny_7's thread. She had her H take a poly after 23 years. Both of them was realy helped by it. She got confirmation that he was telling her the truth. He was helped a lot because the trust issue was always there even after 23 years.
> 
> *It is never to late to do a poly!*


I don't agree that is using an example of a woman who waits 23 years to settle an issue is proof that asking her to take a poly is a win win. He has made his peace with it. Why do you insist otherwise? Harboring in an issue that he has closure with and they are obviously working on to resolve is counterproductive advice and even a bit judgmental.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Kermitty said:


> I don't agree that is using an example of a woman who waits 23 years to settle an issue is proof that asking her to take a poly is a win win. He has made his peace with it. Why do you insist otherwise? Harboring in an issue that he has closure with and they are obviously working on to resolve is counterproductive advice and even a bit judgmental.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No more judgmental than you telling people to stop the discussion because you have judged his reconciliation successful. They answered his question, he steered the conversation to this point and now you two are balking at the outcome.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

AlphaHalf said:


> What does she miss, "The hand sex"?????? *OR* "
> 
> I can't see how much of that worth missing. They had sexual contact of their own free will, I don't see how you can buy into there collaborated story. HE IS NO LONGER A FRIEND. * FRIENDS DON'T "FINGER F$%K" ANOTHER FRIENDS SPOUSE. *A drunken mistake and now a sober lie.


And let's hope that it didn't happen in the State of Ohio. Digital genital stimulation is illegal.....even when it's consensual.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No more judgmental than you telling people to stop the discussion because you have judged his reconciliation successful. They answered his question, he steered the conversation to this point and now you two are balking at the outcome.


Who is balking? I didn't judge it successful. He said he had closure with it. I'm just reiterating it because I can. I didn't tell you to stop the discussion, just have my opinion in your discussion. Feel free to post what you want 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm not going to get into a further "No YOU" argument. You are telling people to stop discussing the issues because you feel he is at "peace" " "resolving" and has "closure." Yes, that is "successful."

Last word, on this point, is yours.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

ArcticRain said:


> Thanks. To be clear about what she agreed to her as part of our reconciliation:
> 
> 1) No contact with the other guy
> 2) No drinking if she goes out with her girl friends (and needs to tell me when she will be back and I have to approve)
> ...


ArcticRain,

Please notice that this isn't for however long YOU need. She has proven to YOU that she cannot be out alone at all. This is for her to be faithful, because she can't control HERSELF, so this is for the marriage now that she has ruined its integrity and foundation on LOVE. The marriage was destroyed and must be rebuilt and it will never be the same. Open your eyes, have some self respect and know that by your wife's disrespectful actions to herself only further disrespect you as a husband, as a man, as a person with dignity.

Going out with girls is out the window, now many may disagree but if she hadn't cheated and you do not permit her is one thing, but she has proven that she cannot control herself and we all know, especially men (single, married) that GNO are 'no bueno' for married women to be participating in because of its natural environment of being near occasion for lapsing.


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## Jonesey (Jul 11, 2011)

ArcticRain said:


> Sorry, I'm clearly not communicating something critical here. She has never once stated that she blames him or that she blames alcohol for what happened. Right from the start when she confessed to me, she took full responsibility for what happened.
> 
> As we've had follow up conversations (specifically around if we could ever hang out with this group of friends again) she has stated that she could never be friends with this guy again because she feels like he betrayed their friendship. That is between her and him and does not change the fact that she still believes she is responsible for what she did.
> 
> ...


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