# When is enough enough?



## Jeanie (Nov 14, 2011)

This is going to be long so bear with me. I have been married for 11 years, with my husband for 13. We have two kids - 8 year old boy and a 5 year old girl. We have had our problems over the years as do most couples but the past year and a half has sent us in a downward spiral. 

My husband has suffered from depression on and off for most of his adult life. A year and a half ago things really took a turn for the worse. He started to fly into these uncontrollable rages (all directed at me). The most minor things would set him off. After about 6 months of this, he realized that both his depression and his job were contributing to these fits of rage. We decided that he would seek immediate medical attention and would leave his job (it really was a very toxic workplace). We agreed that he would take the summer off, he would look after our kids and then in the Fall start considering employment options. 

Fast forward to today. He is still not working and basically does nothing all day. He is supposed to be our kids primary care giver but most days he makes little to no effort to actually plan activities for them or even to make sure they've done basic things like brush their teeth. I come home from work and the house is always a disaster, dishes not done, dirty dishes everywhere - just awful. What's even worse, is that although my husband promised me a year ago that he would step up and take over the household chores (so life would actually be easier for me), he has done nothing and life is so much harder. So much so that I started having panic attacks, and have started IC to help me through this. 

And all of this I would be willing to work through and find ways to make things better, but to top everything off, about a month ago my husband got angry with me because I didn't hear my cell phone while I was with my children at a birthday party. When I did call him, and then later when I got home, he went into one of his rages where I am the target. According to my husband, I never follow through on anything I say I'm going to do, he can't trust me, doesn't believe me and that he's basically done with this marriage. 

I asked again that we got to MC (he has always refused in the past). He agreed finally this time, but with the caveat that "he knows it won't do any good since I'm not going to follow through with anything". And just to make it clear it is his position that all of the problems in our marriage are 100% my fault. 

So based on all this, and after talking to my IC, I'm not even sure it's worth trying MC. I alone can't fix this marriage, but yet that is the expectation he is placing on me. I actually asked my IC when am I allowed to say "enough is enough" because the guilt at the thought of just walking away is eating me up inside. 

So really, I'm just looking for anyone who has gone through something similar and how do you finally decide that it's time to walk away?

Thank you.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

What's he doing to deal with his issues? I'd make that a condition of working on your marriage. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jeanie (Nov 14, 2011)

My husband has been receiving treatment for the past year (he is on several different medications). However, I don't think it's been adequate. He doesn't actually talk to anyone about his problems, nor does he seem to be willing to. He's content to just simply take some pills and call it day. His stance on IC is similar to MC....it won't change anything. He believes his problems are all chemical and talking to someone won't do anything to fix it. 

He firmly believes that he can do no wrong....and that any problems that arise are due to someone else's fault. As time goes on, it's harder and harder for me to believe that anything will change as our problems are not just due to his depression but his overall personality.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Seems like you know what you need to do, then...

Sorry you're here, and I wish you well. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Well, even though he is taking meds for the depression, (which, btw, good for him) he isnt doing anything to deal with his rages, which I see as the bigger issue. No one deserves to have to live with someone with rage issues like that. Plus he blames you for everything, and expects YOU to fix things. Not fair, and not productive, either. 

I was with an angry man, there is no hell like it. I left. Never a day of regret.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am guessing you don't want to leave because of the kids? You are afraid he'll take his anger out on them?

If you are going to stay, I think you need strong boundaries. Have you seen this article?

Codependency Is A Serious Problem For Relationships

It is written for men, but I think women can get plenty out of it too. The basic message is to say no and stick to it, despite the reaction from your partner.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jeanie said:


> Our problems are not just due to his depression but his overall personality.


Jeanie, if your H does have strong traits of a personality disorder -- as you seem to suspect -- the medications will not make a dent in that problem. Granted, most folks suffering a PD will be prescribed medications. Those meds, however, are not targeted toward the PD. Rather, they are targeted toward the co-occurring "clinical disorders" such as depression, PTSD, ADHD, and GAD. 

Given your concern about his personality, I suggest you take a look at my list of red flags for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) at 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

Although I've been following your many threads over the past two years, I've never participated because you have said nothing to indicate your H has a great fear of abandonment -- one of the hallmarks of a person having strong BPD traits. Yet, given the way his behavior has deteriorated over the past 1.5 years, I believe it may be worth your while to take a quick look at BPD warning signs to see if you recognize most of them (even though I still remain skeptical). Take care, Jeanie.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jld said:


> Have you seen this article? Codependency Is A Serious Problem For Relationships


JLD, that is not an "article" but, rather, a 7-page advertisement for Rick Reynold's $99 "life coaching" service and his $23 book -- _The BPD Success Program. _Rick promises that you can "Learn Exactly How to Succeed in BPD Relationships." Although this young guy has no credentials whatsoever, he claims to have _"vast knowledge"_ and to be an _"expert on relationships."_ He brags, _"Put me up against any psychologist, author, whatever and I guarantee I know more about BPD than any of them."_

Significantly, Rick has repeatedly failed to make his _"BPD Success Program"_ work even for himself. He concedes that he "spent years dating various BPD women," including one he recently dated for 13 months. He also concedes that he broke up with all of them. Rick's many claims about BPD and Codependency are so outrageous that I list a few of his howlers at my post in ShamelessLover's Thread.

JLD, I realize that you are good hearted and well intentioned. I therefore suggest that you refer readers to one of the hundreds of legitimate websites offering articles and blogs written by professionals.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Uptown, did you remove your post from the unmet needs thread? The OP asked both of us to.

I think the info is good, Uptown, and it is free. No one needs to buy anything. 

*The basic message is have strong boundaries and enforce them. Let the BPD walk away if they do not like your boundaries. It is cheap and simple. Unlike therapy, which is unlikely to work if the person does not commit themselves to it.*

Uptown, did you not end up doing the same thing the author recommends, _after_ you spent tons of money trying to help your wife? Didn't she leave you anyway?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jld said:


> *The basic message is have strong boundaries and enforce them. Let the BPD walk away if they do not like your boundaries.*


No, JLD, the basic message at Rick's website is that, if you enforce strong boundaries, you will "learn exactly how to succeed in BPD Relationships." This is why he calls his book "_The BPD Success Program_." 

The basic message is _"Be genuinely confident and a solid human being and you won’t even know if you’re dating a BPD."_ Rick's notion that, by enforcing your own boundaries, your partner's BPD traits will become invisible -- or somehow unnoticeable -- is pure fantasy.

The basic message is _"How you respond to [BPD temper tantrums] the very first time will determine whether that poor behavior continues or not."_ Incredibly, Rick believes that -- if you only establish strong boundaries "the very first time" -- a BPDer's temper tantrums, irrational jealousy, icy withdrawal, and depression will not be seen again.

The basic message is that _"When I look at successful relationships with borderlines, the men wear the pants...They’ve got their **** together and you naturally respect them – hence why a borderline is perfectly happy with him._" This claim that, by simply enforcing strong boundaries, a BPDer will be "perfectly happy" with you is absurd. Trying to make a BPDer happy is as futile as trying to fill the Grand Canyon using a squirt gun.

The basic message is that, _"if everybody actually knew this concept, divorce would drop to below 10% and everybody would be happy."_ Amazingly, this ridiculous claim is made by a young guy in his 20's who has never been married and who has broken up with ALL of the BPDers he claims to have dated.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OP, let us know if you want us to delete this back-and-forth, okay?

This website seems to be triggering for you, Uptown. I think it's because there are indeed favorable comments on that blog, people who have truly been helped by that approach. 

It may not be your recommended approach. But if it's bringing results for others, why shouldn't people be advised to take a look at it and make their own judgments?

You are trying to discredit the message by discrediting the messenger.

The advice is simple and free. But it is not easy. *You have to be able to say No, hold firm to it, and let the BPD go if he or she wants to. 

Therapy is expensive and may not work if the person is not motivated to apply what he or she is told to do. Isn't that what you found out with your ex-wife, Uptown?*


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It makes it sound easy. It's not. Not even remotely.

Once again, it's a numbers game. His techniques may work for a fraction of cases but not quite for everyone....


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> OP, let us know if you want us to delete this back-and-forth, okay?
> 
> *This website seems to be triggering for you, Uptown. I think it's because there are indeed favorable comments on that blog, people who have truly been helped by that approach.*
> 
> ...


You sure are judgemental, JLD. Tread carefully here. Uptown is one of the most respected posters on this site, and knows damn well what he is talking about. You just didnt like being called out.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> You sure are judgemental, JLD. Tread carefully here. Uptown is one of the most respected posters on this site, and knows damn well what he is talking about. You just didnt like being called out.


Called out for what? Having a different opinion?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> It makes it sound easy. It's not. Not even remotely.
> 
> Once again, it's a numbers game. His techniques may work for a fraction of cases but not quite for everyone....


It's free. It's worth a shot.

Therapy certainly doesn't seem to be working for everyone, either. Why not have options?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In terms of dealing with BPD's I feel nobody has gotten it right.

The books - Walking on Eggshels etc... For the most part the books do a decent job of helping with the diagnosing of some PD issue or another. But all they really discuss is coping mechanisms like validation etc in the attempt to maintain a tolerable life.

The forums - let's just say the authoritative board is not quite what one would think. The board is full of acceptists, that'showitists, and so on. Basically not a very healthy place IMO since all they tell you is "live with it". There's sections on leaving a BPD but people seemed to either bail immediately upon figuring out about BPD or stick it out with little different results. The years I spent there were full of sugarcoating issues and refusing to see reality. One was not even to discuss their own approach if it upset the orthodoxy... 

Them you have the fringe authors / web sites who feel it's boundaries, strong partners, etc. That works in mild BPD cases but being a spectrum disorder BPD has all kinds of surprises for us... 

Finally there's the pro sites that offer DBT or CBT type approaches but are not for DIY. 

Unfortunately no good way around it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

The problem as I see it is that not everyone can afford therapy. And like in the case of Uptown's wife, it doesn't always work. 

He mentioned once that towards the end, he put some firm boundaries in place and she ended up leaving him. He spent a lot of money on therapy with no long-term results.

I think it makes sense to try the simple, free options if you can't afford therapy. And I don't think any of these methods have any guarantee to them at all.


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## Jeanie (Nov 14, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jeanie (Nov 14, 2011)

Thank you everyone for your responses. We've actually been away at an annual family vacation which normally I look forward to, but this year dreaded. It's harder and harder for me to gather the strength to keep everything together...and hide the realities of our relationship. Nothing much happened while we were away....just more of the same. Anything that went wrong was my fault...even things that I had nothing to do with. And what's even more confusing is that a couple of weeks ago he was done with me, and now he's talking about planning next year's vacation. I don't get it! I'm so confused I don't know when I can believe him and the when I can't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How old are the two of you?

It sounds like your husband is going to do exactly what he's doing as long as you allow it.

Is there someone he can go stay with, like his parents? As long as he's with you he will continue to not take responsibility and not return to work. And there is no way that you should put up with his abuse.


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