# My wife doesn't give any effort in our sex life.



## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

My wife has all the tools she needs to turn me on. She could meet me at the door in one of my button down shirts without anything else on or she could sneak up behind me and lay a big kiss on me. The trouble is: she doesn't ever do any of the above. Why? I really don't understand. Our sex life is like a summer vacation. You go one time per year and save up for it all year long. We've talked about it, but nothing ever changes. I'm about ready to give up. Let me here it from the ladies out there. What can I do?


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Hi jwayne can you give us some more info...how long together/married, any kids, both work?, health issues, marriage issues, financial issues, did your W ever have a high sex drive?

How much have you talked about it and in how much detail?

My experience with low sex drive...

We went through a low sex period when we had our babies.

It took a fair bit of work to get me in the mood... and there was a huge difference between H beating his chest and grunting he wanted to do the wild thing more often compared to when he told me he felt so lonely and rejected and missed our intimate times.

The latter comment melted my heart towards him... i saw him less as that guy that wanted to climb all over me at the end of the day and more as a sweet loving man who wanted to have intimate time with me..yippee!

PS: just want to note that at no time am i sugesting your a neanderthol who beats his chest at your wife... just telling you about my experience.


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks for your reply. We've actually been married 16 years and have 2 children. They're both still young. After the second child, the sex pretty much stopped. Then my wife was introduced to the wonderful world of zoloft, which really put the nail in the coffin, so to speak. Well, she finally stopped taking that and it just has never came back. The issue just keeps going in circles. We'll talk about it and she'll tell me that she needs more of an emotional connection (communication) and I'll try and do that but then, once we go several weeks without any type of effection, I start shutting down. I feel like we fall in the category of a sexless marriage, but on top of that, we don't have hardly anything in common so there's really nothing that we like to do together.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

Emotional Intimacy, like what your wife is after, will provide her with feelings of comfort and trust, vital for the physical act. Often times men get comfortable in a relationship and stop putting forth as much effort. This is a two way street though. Maybe suggest to your wife that some quality sack time will provide you the motivation to up your game.


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## Screenp2 (Dec 4, 2011)

My wife is the same. Can't be bothered to initiate intimacy or touch of any kind with me. 

The kids.. showered with love and attention.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It is so hard for a woman to explain to a man what she needs. I know this from experience.

You might want to read this book "Five Steps to Romantic Love" by Dr. Harley.

How many hours a week do you spend with your wife doing things that are date-like? That is the first thing you need to look at.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

How long has she been off Zoloft?

I agree with Sock - women usually need to feel emotionally intimate to feel motivated, (enthusiastic?) About physical intimacy! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_

Can some of the ladies here describe in some detail what is meant by emotional intimacy? That term is something my wife has mentioned, but it's far too vague for us "Neanderthal" types to be very useful.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

toadie said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Can some of the ladies here describe in some detail what is meant by emotional intimacy? That term is something my wife has mentioned, but it's far too vague for us "Neanderthal" types to be very useful.


It is so hard for a woman to explain to a man what she needs. I know this from experience.

You might want to read this book *"Five Steps to Romantic Love" *by Dr. Harley.

How many hours a week do you spend with your wife doing things that are date-like? That is the first thing you need to look at.


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> It is so hard for a woman to explain to a man what she needs. I know this from experience.
> 
> You might want to read this book *"Five Steps to Romantic Love" *by Dr. Harley.
> 
> How many hours a week do you spend with your wife doing things that are date-like? That is the first thing you need to look at.


I spend about an hour and a half watching tv shows with her every night. The "housewives" shows, stuff like that. Shows I would never watch on my own. We joke about the women on the shows, talk during the shows. During this time, we hold hands. This is nightly, seven days a week. We don't go out on dates because we have a two year old and she will not find a sitter. Her choice. I'd be happy to pay for a sitter, but she has to find one. 

I'd prefer to hear from women as to what this means as opposed to buying a book. If women want "emotional intimacy" but cannot even explain what this is specifically (as my wife cannot), then how on earth do you expect a husband to provide it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

toadie said:


> I'd prefer to hear from women as to what this means as opposed to buying a book. If women want "emotional intimacy" but cannot even explain what this is specifically (as my wife cannot), then how on earth do you expect a husband to provide it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"...Because if you _really_ loved me, you'd just _*KNOW*_..."

The universal letout clause used by men *and* women who don't know what they want, can't be bothhered to find out, don't know how to ask for it if / when they do and don't provide the environment that generates it from their partner...


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

toadie said:


> I spend about an hour and a half watching tv shows with her every night. The "housewives" shows, stuff like that. Shows I would never watch on my own. We joke about the women on the shows, talk during the shows. During this time, we hold hands. This is nightly, seven days a week. We don't go out on dates because we have a two year old and she will not find a sitter. Her choice. I'd be happy to pay for a sitter, but she has to find one.
> 
> I'd prefer to hear from women as to what this means as opposed to buying a book. If women want "emotional intimacy" but cannot even explain what this is specifically (as my wife cannot), then how on earth do you expect a husband to provide it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Emotional intimacy can mean different things to different people. But, to me, it means my husband having and showing a direct interest in me and things that concern me. Willingness to converse, listen, offer suggestions, offer support, willingness to engage in non-sexual affection and attention, willingness to 'be the man' and be 'the rock' when necessary. I need to know that he's got my back, so to speak.

It also helps when he 'speaks' in my love language - which is words of affirmation. I need to HEAR him verbalize his appreciation to me. But each person is different in that - you need to find out what kinds of things 'speak' to your wife.

Best wishes.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Hi, 

Find a sitter yourself. 

Think of dating your wife. What are ways you can show her that you care about her?

Things like:
Make an effort to notice how she looks. If she looks hot to you in pj's and ruffled hair, simply tell her. If you like to watch her playing with your child, say so. It's about verbalizing your thoughts. It can be more than just saying I love you all the time, that becomes as scheduled as saying hello and goodbye.

Do you feel deeply about your wife? You want to be with her? tell her that. It doesn't have to be fancy, just verbalize that you enjoy being with her. 

Think of ways you can make her feel like a woman, not just a mother. 
Tell her you desire HER, instead of saying you need sex more often.
Tell her you want to touch her, feel her, be with her, and you enjoy arousing her. 

Of course, if you don't feel any of these things, and it's just simply a physical need, she will know it and probably not respond. 

This stuff can seem awkward at first, if you aren't used to expressing things. But it can be simple comments. You probably think them, but just don't say them.


What things


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

^^^ THIS. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

toadie said:


> I spend about an hour and a half watching tv shows with her every night. The "housewives" shows, stuff like that. Shows I would never watch on my own. We joke about the women on the shows, talk during the shows. During this time, we hold hands. This is nightly, seven days a week.


To build “emotional intimacy” a couple has to spend ‘date-like’ time together for about 15 hours a week. Watching TV only marginally counts as your attention is mostly on the TV and not on each other. The good news is that since you have the time to watch TV, you have the time to do other things.


toadie said:


> We don't go out on dates because we have a two year old and she will not find a sitter. Her choice. I'd be happy to pay for a sitter, but she has to find one.


You have a problem with the relationship? You can find the sitter as well. Why is this 100% your wife’s responsibility to find a sitter? Do you have friends or family who you trust? Ask them to take sit for a while. Find another couple in the same situation and swap sitting for each other. 

If there is an issue with leaving your child with someone you don’t know, get a sitter to watch you child while you and your wife have an in-home date. Over time you might get to trust the sitter enough to go out on dates.

There is another thread going on today on this same topic. Please go there and read as there are a lot of good suggestions being posted. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/36695-post-marriage-freakiness.html


toadie said:


> I'd prefer to hear from women as to what this means as opposed to buying a book. If women want "emotional intimacy" but cannot even explain what this is specifically (as my wife cannot), then how on earth do you expect a husband to provide it?


The fact is that most people have no idea of how to express what they need. Your wife is not any different on this than you are or anyone else. 

Emotional intimacy is not like a cake recipe or instruction for using your internet enabled TV. There are no institutions for the exact amount of ingredients, time to mix, shake and bake. There are no instructions for which things to plug in where and which knobs to turn. Emotional intimacy is about you finding out what makes your wife tick, what her love busters and for you to start following through on them. And then you need to spend 15 hours a week doing things with her on the level that you did when you dated. 

I cannot tell you want it would take for you to fill your wife’s needs for emotional intimacy because I don’t' know your wife. I can tell you what my needs and love busters are. But that won’t help you any. It means you have to put a whole lot more time into getting to know your wife, caring about what her needs are and filling them. If she is not interested in sex with you, it means that you are not doing this. 

No one here is paid to give you advice. I gave you the name of a book that will tell you how to go about building the emotional intimacy your wife needs. The good thing about it is that it will also show you how to get your emotional needs met by her going through the same exercises to get to know you (and yes sex is one of the topics/needs addressed.) That book and the others I’m listing below are the best advice I can give you. They are what my husband and I used to rev things up in our marriage.

I’m going to give you the names of more books by Harley. I’m giving them to you because they are what worked for my husband and me.

All of these are by Dr. Harley
"Five Steps to Romantic Love"
“His Needs, Her Needs”
“Love Busters”
Marraigebuilders.com


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

Okay, I've read many comments about emotional intimacy. But here's my point, my wife knows that she has the ability to turn me on like crazy, so my question is: if you know that you can drive your husband crazy and make him want more, then DO IT. If you have that kind of power and control to give your husband ultimate pleasure, why don't women take advantage of that? My wife doesn't. I don't understand that. And yes, I've told her before that she looks extremely sexy in clothes that she wears...... many times


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

I know part of our issue is that we just don't have anything in common. She's more outgoing, I'm not. She likes reality TV shows, I don't. I would like sex in the morning or even middle of the day, she don't. On and on and on..........


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> Okay, I've read many comments about emotional intimacy. But here's my point, my wife knows that she has the ability to turn me on like crazy, so my question is: if you know that you can drive your husband crazy and make him want more, then DO IT. If you have that kind of power and control to give your husband ultimate pleasure, why don't women take advantage of that? My wife doesn't. I don't understand that. And yes, I've told her before that she looks extremely sexy in clothes that she wears...... many times


If you know that you have the power and control to make your wife feel like a goddess ... like you did when you were dating, why don't you do it?

Do you think that telling her she looks sexy in her clothes is all she needs to feel like having sex?

Can you list your wife's top 4 emotional needs and how she likes to have them met?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

"you look sexy" means you want sex.

"you look beautiful" means you think she is beautiful.

It may not be intentional, may not apply to you, but there is a difference in feeling like your husband just wants to get laid, and feeling like your husband wants YOU. That he desires YOU. 

Have you told her this specifically? That she turns you on like crazy? What exactly does she do that drives you crazy? Tell her. 

All I mean is convey the message that it is HER you want, not just sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> I know part of our issue is that we just don't have anything in common. She's more outgoing, I'm not. She likes reality TV shows, I don't. I would like sex in the morning or even middle of the day, she don't. On and on and on..........


What are the things that you have in common?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> I know part of our issue is that we just don't have anything in common. She's more outgoing, I'm not. She likes reality TV shows, I don't. I would like sex in the morning or even middle of the day, she don't. On and on and on..........


Get creative. Go try new things. Bowling. Skating. Something neither of you normally does. 

So do you even "like" each other? Is this just about mandatory sex in a certain way, and yet you don't even want to spend time together? 

It takes work. From both spouses. To keep things interesting and fresh and not one-sided. 

Break out of the routine, because it obviously isn't working for you!


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

You guys are killing me.....lol...... It's almost like trying to figure out some big scientific experiment. Darn.....are you telling me I have to start watching reality TV...........


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> You guys are killing me.....lol...... It's almost like trying to figure out some big scientific experiment. Darn.....are you telling me I have to start watching reality TV...........


What if we did?

You want her to put herself 'out there' for you, potentially doing something that she doesn't feel comfortable with or maybe even potentially like doing.

Ask yourself why's it okay for you to expect her to do all of that for you, but you don't expect yourself to do any of that for her? Only when YOU change a dynamic to be giving, shall you receive (and that YOU applies to both partners, but someone's got to start first, and I vote for YOU because you are here.)

(and btw, it's not likely the watching of reality TV, but the SPENDING of QUALITY time that would get you farther. )


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> You guys are killing me.....lol...... It's almost like trying to figure out some big scientific experiment. Darn.....are you telling me I have to start watching reality TV...........


I would assume that sometimes you would watch Reality TV and sometimes she would watch whatever it is you would want to watch.

But mostly... no you don't have to watch reality TV. Get away from the TV and do things together that are fun.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Jwayne said:


> You guys are killing me.....lol...... It's almost like trying to figure out some big scientific experiment. Darn.....are you telling me I have to start watching reality TV...........


 Why are you here ?
Oh yeah, she's not that into you. She wants emotional connection. 

So I was still wondering if this is just purely getting a physical need for sex met, or if you are truly laughing at the idea of spending fun time with her? 

Chicken and the egg. 

Keeping score on who puts in more effort is for baseball. Just my opinion, although the Men's clubhouse might be more your speed. Try a 180. Don't ask... be clear and more manly about stating exactly what you expect from her. If she doesn't deliver... give consequences.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Basically, it may not be what you do, but more like HOW and WHY you do it. Most women will shut down sexually if they feel that is all that matters/all the focus is on sex by their husbands. I've been there and done that. :/

Having the INTENT to actually CARE about her needs without expectations of sex is a good place to start.

I can see how this is confusing, I just wish I could articulate it better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

How do I meet my girlfriend's emotional needs... 
When she walks in the door, I put my hand behind her head and greet her with a "proper" kiss. No peck on the cheek. 

If we do sit down and watch tv (or sit and just talk), I'm in constant contact with her. Rubbing her feet, hold her hand, stroking her arms, legs, or hair. Same when we're driving. I'll have my hand on hers, or her thigh pretty much constantly.

Look into her eyes and tell her how much I love her. 

Send her texts throughout the day, just to let her know that I'm thinking of her. 

Pay attention to how she looks, and what she's wearing. Just something as simple as "I just love your blue eyes", or "your hair looks great today". 

Surprise her every once in awhile with a present that shows you've been listening to her and are in tune with her. A CD (or download one from iTunes for her), a book, whatever. 

Pick up her favorite snack or drink. Ask if you can get takeout from her favorite restaurant.

Give her a "no strings" massage. Fire up some candles, put on some soft music, but hands off the goods.

Walk up behind her, move her hair off her neck, and kiss the back or side of her neck. Then care on with what you're doing.

When a good slow dance song comes on, dance with her in the living room, bedroom, laundry room... Wherever.

As you can tell, my GF and I are physical touch people. So many of these things happen without even thinking of it. If your spouse and you speak different languages, it may take more of an effort to speak hers, which you'll need to do. And yes, for us things often turn physical. But I don't do things with that purpose. It just happens.

Personally, I feel like many of us (both men and women) forget to keep "dating" their partners. I know I'm guilty of doing that. It's difficult to keep that up when life, work, kids, etc get in the way. But to keep the relationship from stagnating, we have to make that effort.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Emotional intimacy can mean different things to different people. But, to me, it means my husband having and showing a direct interest in me and things that concern me. Willingness to converse, listen, offer suggestions, offer support, willingness to engage in non-sexual affection and attention, willingness to 'be the man' and be 'the rock' when necessary. I need to know that he's got my back, so to speak.
> 
> It also helps when he 'speaks' in my love language - which is words of affirmation. I need to HEAR him verbalize his appreciation to me. But each person is different in that - you need to find out what kinds of things 'speak' to your wife.
> 
> Best wishes.


Thanks for the response, that was indeed helpful! I'm working on these things that you mention. In fact, I even asked her to complete the love language survey and her language was primarily gifts, which I definitely take care of. She's surprised fairly often with gifts and flowers _outside_ of Valentine's Day, birthday, Mother's Day, Christmas, anniversary, etc.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

deejov said:


> Why are you here ?
> Oh yeah, she's not that into you. She wants emotional connection.
> 
> So I was still wondering if this is just purely getting a physical need for sex met, or if you are truly laughing at the idea of spending fun time with her?
> ...


Hm... yea that will light her fire... just give consequences if she does not deliver


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> To build “emotional intimacy” a couple has to spend ‘date-like’ time together for about 15 hours a week. Watching TV only marginally counts as your attention is mostly on the TV and not on each other. The good news is that since you have the time to watch TV, you have the time to do other things. You have a problem with the relationship? You can find the sitter as well. Why is this 100% your wife’s responsibility to find a sitter? Do you have friends or family who you trust? Ask them to take sit for a while. Find another couple in the same situation and swap sitting for each other.


We could do other things if we had a sitter. The ball is definitely in her court with this issue because she is very protective of our son, and has turned down three or four sitters that I've recommended, including my own mother (and ladies from work whom I trust and have known for years). She does not have a network of people to draw on, but doesn't want to take a chance with the people I suggest, so there's nothing more I can do immediately. That's why I say it's up to her at this point. Heck, my mom offered to keep our son on our anniversary so we could get away and she didn't want to do even that because it involved an overnight trip (mom is 2.5 hours away). We ended up doing nothing except exchanging gifts for our anniversary. Pretty hurtful. 



> If there is an issue with leaving your child with someone you don’t know, get a sitter to watch you child while you and your wife have an in-home date. Over time you might get to trust the sitter enough to go out on dates.


Thanks, this is an idea I will put forward.



> Emotional intimacy is not like a cake recipe or instruction for using your internet enabled TV. There are no institutions for the exact amount of ingredients, time to mix, shake and bake. There are no instructions for which things to plug in where and which knobs to turn. Emotional intimacy is about you finding out what makes your wife tick, what her love busters and for you to start following through on them. And then you need to spend 15 hours a week doing things with her on the level that you did when you dated.


Thanks for the response. Yours and other responses have been helpful. Some of these things I've already been doing. I take her on lunch dates when our son is in mothers' day out. I realize watching TV is not the same type of thing that we did when dating, but the sitter issue is a huge roadblock that she's errected which prevents us from really doing anything other than watching a movie. I really appreciate your suggestion of the in-home dates with a sitter. I will give this a whirl.

I also fully realize that after the birth of our son, which was my first and not her first (she has an older daughter out of the house), that the shell shock of having an infant did separate us a bit, and that I'm responsible for some of this.

She's a stay at home mom, I pay all the bills, and I do half of the housework. I do my own laundry and help out with our son's laundry. I do the grocery shopping so she does not have to, and she's well taken care of financially. I do dishes, take out the trash, take care of the yard, and spend a great deal of time on the weekends with our son so she can relax. I even get up on weeknights with our son at 2:00 or 4:00 in the morning to give him a bottle so she doesn't have to get up (I'm up with him more than she is at this point). She has far more free time than I do. So, I feel like I have a lot of bases covered except this "emotional intimacy" riddle, which has now been explained (greatly appreciated, too). Plus she does get no-strings-attached foot rubs and back rubs, but doesn't return any of the physical affection (even in a non-sexual way). It's a lot of balls to keep in the air, so this is admittedly something I have really had a hard time working on after doing all the above, and still not getting any physical affection.

Anyways, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, just wanted some clarification, and you ladies have been very helpful.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Hm... yea that will light her fire... just give consequences if she does not deliver


I'm not great at sarcasm. But I think you know what I meant... if doing fun things together makes you laugh.. try the man's side of advice. (blow hot air here)


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Toadie, 

It does sound like you wife is not putting enough effort into find time to spend with you. Have you been clear on this with her?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

deejov said:


> I'm not great at sarcasm. But I think you know what I meant... if doing fun things together makes you laugh.. try the man's side of advice. (blow hot air here)


Oh I got what you were saying


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

I think the definition of Emotional Intimacy would be different for every woman and every man, a bit like if I were to describe 'love' my words and comprehension would be different to yours.

To me EI is feeling connected at a heart/soul level.

It's taking time out together every day to talk about the good stuff and the bad stuff because you want to know what happening in your partners day..because you really care and are really interested.

It's not running away or closing down when 'feelings' are discussed and to feel SAFE to discuss your feeling and fears and hopes and dreams...to feel safe to be vunerable.


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Toadie,
> 
> It does sound like you wife is not putting enough effort into find time to spend with you. Have you been clear on this with her?


Yes, and her response is that our son comes first and that it will get better "in a couple of years". Frankly, I will be in a mental institution by then! I just wanted some input on EI so that I know that I am being the best husband I can be. I have some things to work on and your answer were very helpful. Beyond that, I can only do so much. The rest is up to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Children are important, no doubt about that, but it shouldn't be to the exclusion of the spouse. Taking care of one another sets a positive example for children's future relationships. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> Children are important, no doubt about that, but it shouldn't be to the exclusion of the spouse. Taking care of one another sets a positive example for children's future relationships.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And she is an absolutely wonderful mother to our son, and I tell her this often! I really do hope she means it when she says it will "get back to normal", because I love her so deeply. Again, thanks for taking the time to give me some answers. They were so helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SockPuppet said:


> This is a two way street though. Maybe suggest to your wife that some quality sack time will provide you the motivation to up your game.


This is key right here. After I insisted on discussing the issue, my stbx admitted her position was that if I hit all the high points and made her feel safe and loved she MIGHT have some kind of sex with me, but that if she didn't then I should be okay with that as well. Basically, it was a double-standard where I needed to meet a higher standard than she did.

Your wife feels that making her feel safe and valued is part of your commitment to her - that you will treat her well regardless of how you feel at a given moment - and she is right. On the flip side, though, she needs to know that her sexual provision is part of her commitment to you. If she has honestly been treated well, she should be curling your toes even if she does not feel like it.

It has to be both or nothing. One person making all the effort will not suffice. If she wants consistency from you she needs to provide the same.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> Basically, it may not be what you do, but more like HOW and WHY you do it. Most women will shut down sexually if they feel that is all that matters/all the focus is on sex by their husbands. I've been there and done that. :/
> 
> Having the INTENT to actually CARE about her needs without expectations of sex is a good place to start.
> 
> ...


It's not confusing at all - it makes perfect sense.

The problem is that some women see the man's selflessness and devotion as an act of sacrifice and feel compelled to respond in kind. Some women take the same sacrifice as "well, he finally understands who the important one is around here" and instead of responding in kind simply set the bar ever higher and never give back.

While I completely agree that keeping score is not appropriate, at some point you simply have to demand accountability and not let yourself be tread upon. With some women you could literally go on for months and years and then when you screw up that one time she says "see, you're not worth it". From a practical perspective, if you are being an attentive husband and don't see results within, say, two months, she isn't trying.

What I found effective at uncovering my stbx's mindset was bringing up the issue in a non-confrontational way. I note that I'm running at 100% serve her in ways that have no apparent value to her. I then invited her to suggest what I could do differently to get her to where she is willing to meet my needs (making it clear that simply doing more will not happen). 

She then has two options: make suggestions (you should take note and adjust your behavior accordingly) - to which you can hold her accountable - or refuse to improve the situation. My stbx said basically "do it all and be happy with what you get", to which you should insist on counseling.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Honestly I think she sounds selfish... Now having said that, I will admit my previous relationship was completely sexless for the final two years - BUT - he was violent, abusive and a womanizer at that. I HAD to shut down sexually, it felt like I had no other choice. I continued to stay and hope that things would get better and they never did... It caused us both a lot of agony. He was so deprived it was ALL he ever talked about, and I was so deprived that anything sexual or intimate couldn't even be considered.

I simply cannot understand how women who have loving, caring and loyal husbands would refuse the one thing they aren't supposed to get anywhere else. It just blows my mind away.

My husband isn't the most sensitive guy, and he's problematic in his own right (so am I after my last relationship), but I talk every moment I can to please and show him I love him. He does try, is affectionate outside of sex, and sometimes, he's even thoughtful! I don't ever want to lose those qualities, but just build upon them so we can continue to grow together. Honestly I don't always feel like it, but I put my mind back to the days when I was hurting so badly in the past, just wanting then what I have now, and I will not refuse him. And not once have I not gotten into it once things began.

If you are honestly attentive, affectionate, caring, loving, reliable, etc. I cannot understand why a woman would NOT want to reciprocate. :scratchhead:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RP49D22 (Dec 7, 2011)

deejov said:


> Hi,
> 
> Find a sitter yourself.
> 
> ...


I am not the original poster, but your response is very helpful and informative. Especially what you said about "I love you" being as scheduled as hello and goodbye.


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## RP49D22 (Dec 7, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> Basically, it may not be what you do, but more like HOW and WHY you do it. Most women will shut down sexually if they feel that is all that matters/all the focus is on sex by their husbands. I've been there and done that. :/
> 
> Having the INTENT to actually CARE about her needs without expectations of sex is a good place to start.
> 
> ...


It is confusing for us husbands, but you're advice is very enlightening. 

My wife often says "less is more" and I think she is referring to less pushing myself on her from a sexual standpoint results in more sex in the long run. I still scratch my head trying to figure this stuff out, but I think what the ladies here are saying is that you desire more of an overall attachment via communication, emotional intimacy, conversation, listening, and the sex will come. Rather than just plain outright sex with zero feeling of attachment????

Did what I say make sense? Now I am confusing myself again, but just trying to understand how y'all think....so I can be a better husband.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

You got it, smartypants!

For me personally, it is a fine line between being desired (flattering) and being objectified (annoying/demeaning at worst).

That being said, I think women could cut you guys more of a break - I understand how confusing we can be.

If my husband just makes the *attempt* to fulfill my emotional needs I'm all over him. I don't think positive reinforcement is a bad thing... However I get the idea that for some women, if this isn't executed absolutely perfect, then she has grounds for dismissal... Which leads to resentment, etc.

So we can help by expecting less and appreciating more as well. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

So I was being an old crust and raging at the tv about some story that involved an old lady who was whining that some 'nice man' took her for $50,000 to re roof her house, work he never did - a straight up 'traveler' scam. The thing that irritates me is all these old people whining for a handout because they're too stupid to hold on to their money. "I'm olllllllld!!!!!!! wah wah wah"

This is why I just don't believe that any normally functioning man or woman who doesn't walk around in a bike helmet, chewing on paint chips can get away with "I did not know you had a sex drive or that I was supposed to be involved" as an excuse.

Really? Middle school buses have baby seats now. How did you think that happened? Osmosis?


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## bellamaxjoy (Oct 27, 2011)

It is so hard when you have kids. I know for a fact that our sex life was pretty sparse then, and now, with the kids grown, I am having a sexual revolution, and am taking hubby with me!!~! It comes back, it takes awhile sometimes though. It is a very hard time in your lives when the kids are young.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

PBear said:


> Personally, I feel like many of us (both men and women) forget to keep "dating" their partners. I know I'm guilty of doing that. It's difficult to keep that up when life, work, kids, etc get in the way. But to keep the relationship from stagnating, we have to make that effort.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This, with a clarification. For most people, their spouse was attracted to them when they were dating. Two big reasons are the attention you paid to them when dating and the kind of person you were. Moving closer to those places will help you.

My marriage improved a lot when I started dating my wife. Telling her we were going out and having her arrange the sitter (mostly because it feels really creepy as a guy nearing 40 to call and ask to speak to a 14 year old girl). Making them fun dates (comedy club, grown up arcades, etc.), not just romantic dates. Be two adults, rather than mom and dad.

It also improved a lot when I changed a bit back into the guy she dated. Doing stuff with friends, getting back into my hobbies, laughing more. I am not the same guy she first went out with (17+ years older and three kids will do that), but I am closer to that guy than I was two years ago. And she and I both like it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

toadie said:


> She's a stay at home mom, I pay all the bills, and I do half of the housework. I do my own laundry and help out with our son's laundry. I do the grocery shopping so she does not have to, and she's well taken care of financially. I do dishes, take out the trash, take care of the yard, and spend a great deal of time on the weekends with our son so she can relax. I even get up on weeknights with our son at 2:00 or 4:00 in the morning to give him a bottle so she doesn't have to get up (I'm up with him more than she is at this point). She has far more free time than I do. So, I feel like I have a lot of bases covered except this "emotional intimacy" riddle, which has now been explained (greatly appreciated, too). Plus she does get no-strings-attached foot rubs and back rubs, but doesn't return any of the physical affection (even in a non-sexual way). It's a lot of balls to keep in the air, so this is admittedly something I have really had a hard time working on after doing all the above, and still not getting any physical affection.


Assuming this is accurate, you have a big problem here. She's not carrying her share of the load. No way a SAHM (where the kid is at mother's day out) should not be doing more of the house work. That is part of her job. No problems with you helping, especially in caring for the kid, but you need free time and down time too. You are being too nice here. Your problem may be that she has (unwittingly) lost some respect, as you are catering to her despite her not treating you all that well.


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Assuming this is accurate, you have a big problem here. She's not carrying her share of the load. No way a SAHM (where the kid is at mother's day out) should not be doing more of the house work. That is part of her job. No problems with you helping, especially in caring for the kid, but you need free time and down time too. You are being too nice here. Your problem may be that she has (unwittingly) lost some respect, as you are catering to her despite her not treating you all that well.


I have picked up on this, too. I have read Married Man Sex Life and No More Mr. Nice Guy. Both those books nailed me, so, whether it works in this relationship or not we will see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jwayne (Dec 4, 2011)

You know what really scares me. Your only young once and if my wife never comes around to having more sex, I'll be old and won't be able to have sex any more. I'm not sure what that age is, but I'm not ready for it. Right now I'm thinking, I'm wasting away here with no sex while others are enjoying this God made experience to the fullest. I'm fairly young, in my forties, and I'm missing out on one of the great joys of life. A good satisfied sex life. Why can't my looks alone get my wife in the mood. I mean really, don't women look at a guy and get horny. Sometimes?


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## dymond0 (Dec 11, 2011)

Emotional Intimacy can be different for every woman, but here is my advice. Start telling your wife positive things you love about her. While she's getting ready in the morning, look at her and tell her how beautiful she is. If she cooks you dinner, kiss her and tell her how much you appreciate it. Tell her you love how great she is with the kids or point out something you admire about her. You can also do small favors for her such as offering to pick up groceries so she doesn't have to or cleaning up the kitchen after dinner. I don't know your lifestyle so these are just examples. My point is that when these are said and/or done, it triggers a positive emotional feeling. Many studies show that taking a few things off your wife's responsibility plate is one of the best turn-ons for most women. 

Small acts of encouragement and service is what will create the Emotional Intimacy toward you. The more she can look at you and think "I have such a wonderful husband", the more she will feel connected to you and willing to by intimate more often. Once she is showing more willingness to be intimate, start telling her how much you would enjoy it if she would plant a sexy kiss on you or walk in the bedroom in your button up shirt. I'm not saying that doing these things will instantly turn your wife into a sex-maniac, but it will get increase the frequency of your pleasure.


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

toadie said:


> Yes, and her response is that our son comes first and that it will get better "in a couple of years".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I find this attitude very common and I just don't get it. My kids are not the most important thing in my marriage. My wife is. And if she does not take care of me, and me her, our house will be a much worse place to live in for the kids because the adults will end up divorced. 

I clarified this with my wife by telling her that it is not OK to go chasing all around town with my kids all the time. Soccer and baseball practice. Church. Kids sleepovers. if I need sex and she cannot spend 1/2 hour with me because of kids activities, she has made her choice. She has elected to ignore my needs. I helped her understand that this is unacceptable to me. That WE come first before the kids. my kids are teens, so they will be fine if they only do 2 sports a week instead of 3. 

But if your wife cannot squeeze 1/2 hour out of her day a few times a week, there needs to be some priority adjustments made. Why be married if you not getting sex?

My kids are great. But they came late to the party. I got here first. I am more important. 

Have you tried this kind of approach?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

dymond0 said:


> Emotional Intimacy can be different for every woman, but here is my advice. Start telling your wife positive things you love about her. While she's getting ready in the morning, look at her and tell her how beautiful she is. If she cooks you dinner, kiss her and tell her how much you appreciate it. Tell her you love how great she is with the kids or point out something you admire about her. You can also do small favors for her such as offering to pick up groceries so she doesn't have to or cleaning up the kitchen after dinner. I don't know your lifestyle so these are just examples. My point is that when these are said and/or done, it triggers a positive emotional feeling. Many studies show that taking a few things off your wife's responsibility plate is one of the best turn-ons for most women.
> 
> Small acts of encouragement and service is what will create the Emotional Intimacy toward you. The more she can look at you and think "I have such a wonderful husband", the more she will feel connected to you and willing to by intimate more often. Once she is showing more willingness to be intimate, start telling her how much you would enjoy it if she would plant a sexy kiss on you or walk in the bedroom in your button up shirt. I'm not saying that doing these things will instantly turn your wife into a sex-maniac, but it will get increase the frequency of your pleasure.


 
I think this only works if she is overtired and complaining that she needs help. Otherwise, you are taking away her "power" over the house and treating her like she isn't capable of doing it. And she might take advantage of that.

Depends on her love language. seems that men are transactional more than women. I don't know any women that are transactional, except when gifts are involved. 

Talking to young kids and caring for them isn't mentally stimulating. Find something to do that is.


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

dymond0 said:


> Emotional Intimacy can be different for every woman, but here is my advice. Start telling your wife positive things you love about her. While she's getting ready in the morning, look at her and tell her how beautiful she is. If she cooks you dinner, kiss her and tell her how much you appreciate it. Tell her you love how great she is with the kids or point out something you admire about her. You can also do small favors for her such as offering to pick up groceries so she doesn't have to or cleaning up the kitchen after dinner. I don't know your lifestyle so these are just examples. My point is that when these are said and/or done, it triggers a positive emotional feeling. Many studies show that taking a few things off your wife's responsibility plate is one of the best turn-ons for most women.
> 
> Small acts of encouragement and service is what will create the Emotional Intimacy toward you. The more she can look at you and think "I have such a wonderful husband", the more she will feel connected to you and willing to by intimate more often. Once she is showing more willingness to be intimate, start telling her how much you would enjoy it if she would plant a sexy kiss on you or walk in the bedroom in your button up shirt. I'm not saying that doing these things will instantly turn your wife into a sex-maniac, but it will get increase the frequency of your pleasure.


I have done all of this for months. This is clearly not getting me anywhere. I'm leaning more towards the approach found in NMMNG and MMSL to see how that works. If it doesn't then our marriage is screwed because I will not accept a sexless marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

toadie said:


> I have done all of this for months. This is clearly not getting me anywhere. I'm leaning more towards the approach found in NMMNG and MMSL to see how that works. If it doesn't then our marriage is screwed because I will not accept a sexless marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While many of the responses on this thread are entirely fitting and needed, isn't it a little odd that a common assumption is that the man is not meeting her emotional needs, and that she would actively engage in sex if the needs were met?

Hopefully, it is the norm for most women that they will respond if their needs are met, but how do you think your wife will answer if you asked her what responsibilities she brings into the marriage in regards to you?

My wife and I were recently seeing a really good marriage counselor. For now, she just wants to meet with my wife, but she brought up some really interesting points as to the assumptions we bring into marriage. She said that in the samde way that some men easily fall into the "nice guy" mode after marriage, where they equate doing good deeds with getting sex, some women don't think of a sexual relationship with their husband in the context of an expected part of marriage. Some view it like a reward.

Maybe it was due to our own natural personalities, but sex has never been an issue in my marriage. My wife and I, however, have learned through the marriage counselor that one of our biggest problems was that she automatically thought of the overal relationship status as an assessment that was based purely on how her needs are met as a wife. And my problem was that I judged it based on how well I met her needs. Seriously, I tried really, really hard to understand her emotional needs, and she admits this. Funny thing is that neither one of us ever asked if she was doing her part. The first time the coulselor asked her what responsibilities she carried into marriage, sex was the only thing she could name. We're working to improve that. 

I firmly believe that a man should work to understand and cherish his wife, but also believe that a woman should do the same. If there was resentment about the wife's emotional needs not being met on a long term basis, it priovides a clear way forward to resolve this, but others are also pointing out that there doesn't appear to be alot of this described in these examples. Yes, all marriages go through periods where balance is lost, and children can really take a toll on her ability to stay connected, but it sounds like some of the men in this thread might have a longer term inbalance going on. Would your wife be able to answer a marriage therapist if she were asked about her own responsibilities to a happy marriage?


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

Halien said:


> Would your wife be able to answer a marriage therapist if she were asked about her own responsibilities to a happy marriage?


I suspect that she would answer that her responsibilities are 1) our son and 2) taking care of the housework. I really don't think she feels any responsibility toward me other than being faithful. But that is speculation on my part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Being #1 or #2 is ok in cycles. But once your ranking drops below that you may as well have fallen off the list.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with what is being said the in last few posts here. BOTH spouses have a responsibiliy to meet each others needs. Not only to meet them but to know what they are and how their spouse would like to have them met.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

toadie said:


> I have done all of this for months. This is clearly not getting me anywhere. I'm leaning more towards the approach found in NMMNG and MMSL to see how that works. If it doesn't then our marriage is screwed because I will not accept a sexless marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Toadie, 

What are the things that your wife complains about?


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Toadie,
> 
> What are the things that your wife complains about?


She used to complain that I never listened. I do listen now, although I've had to tell her that if she wants my undivided attention, she needs to turn the TV off (or pause the TV) and talk. She's started doing this and it helps me pay attention. Keep in mind these are shows she watches that I watch with her, not football games or guy shows. I really get into shows and she's talking intermitently, so to be blunt, she becomes background noise if we're watching a show. But this is improving. The fact that I'm willing to sit through 6 hours of "Housewives of Pick-A-City" shows a week that I can't stand just to be with her ought to tell her something, and I think she knows. She basically told me she wanted me to be more of a friend to her. Of course, in my head, I'm hearing "friend zone", which is nowhere near where I want to be. That's pretty much the only specific complaints she has about our relationship.

I used to be a bit overweight, that problem has been corrected. I weigh 40 pounds less than when she married me. Money used to be an issue (not with what I made, but how much I gave her).  She was uncomfortable asking me for money, so we set a certain amount each month. I can't read her mind and I don't balance her checkbook, so I didn't know that she needed money. That problem seems to be solved. She mentioned something about wanting to feel secure and that was an issue, so it has been solved as far as I know.

She also complains about being tired almost daily. Not a complaint about me, but I've picked up some additional tasks around the house including getting up in the middle of the night with our son. Have been doing this for several months now.

We did have a little talk last night and she said that she could tell I was making an effort and that she appreciated it and that she loved me. I made a simple statement that physical affection was important to me and that I missed her. I hope _she_ was listening.

I'm patient. We've only been married 3 years, and 9 months of that she was pregnant. I'm not anywhere near ready to give up, but I definitely will not be happy with waiting years for her to come around, no matter how deeply I love her. I would never cheat on anyone as I've experienced that first hand and it's just despicable. I'd never wish that on anyone, but damn I'm horny, lol.

I really think it is this emotional intimacy that she wants, and admittedly I did not provide if for the first year after our son was born. I asked for input in this thread to hear from other women what this entails, and it seems it's things that in some ways I've been improving on already. I want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious. The talk last night was good in getting some feedback, but verbal feedback isn't cutting it for me.

Again, Ele, thanks for giving me some female insight


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I agree with what is being said the in last few posts here. BOTH spouses have a responsibiliy to meet each others needs. Not only to meet them but to know what they are and how their spouse would like to have them met.


Exactly, but a great many people of both sexes don't buy it.

The nearest they get to having a desire to meet their partners needs is something like:

"I am fully prepared to think about considering toying with the idea of meeting your needs, if and when I am totally convinced that you are absolutely commited to not merely meeting, but exceeding, my needs, both now and at any time in the future. Until that time, the decision is on hold..."


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

I still think tiredness plays the primary role. Many women prefer sleep over sex. Its opposite for males.

I think "emotional intimacy" is just a cover up... since it is "different for every woman" its almost like coming up with some Kockamamie story to explain why again you aren't having sex with YOUR husband. 

Face it wives like sleep and see sex getting in the way of that. Since they cannot FEEL the same lack of sex a guy does...they have no inkling what its like.

If they did... they would be having lots of sex and forgoing sleep. They know the spouse is trapped mostly so they just sleep every night. "He should love me regardless" they dream.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I still think tiredness plays the primary role. Many women prefer sleep over sex. Its opposite for males.
> 
> I think "emotional intimacy" is just a cover up... since it is "different for every woman" its almost like coming up with some Kockamamie story to explain why again you aren't having sex with YOUR husband.
> 
> ...


It is interesting that a number of polls have shown that more women do prefer sleep to sex (all you have to do is Google "do women prefer sleeping over sex?"). And, a lot of women do not have that same compulsion for sex that men do.

But, it goes back to that desire thing again. Not the desire to have sex... but the desire to please your spouse... the desire to be committed to your relationship. Without THAT desire present, it's just a very one-sided venture.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> But, it goes back to that desire thing again. Not the desire to have sex... but the desire to please your spouse... the desire to be committed to your relationship. Without THAT desire present, it's just a very one-sided venture.


Yup, a lot of people see commitment to the spouse as something they said that they would do, and having said it, that was enough. Commitment to the spouse sits way lower that sleep, paying bills or even cleaning toilets in some peoples' books, if what's written here is anything to go by.


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## The Shadow (Dec 20, 2011)

I have been following these posts with great interest. I do many of things recommended, and have for quite sometime. Nothing has changed from her side. We have had sex 'maybe' six times this year, and I have started feeling anxious when we do, leading to predictable results (quick).The other night she told me " I love you, but physical attraction, not so much". This hit me like a hard punch to the heart! Right now I feel lonely,rejected and depressed. I am crazy in Love with her, and do not want to split up, but am feeling increasingly like it might be the only solution. I don't want a roommate, I want a Wife! Any ideas?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

The Shadow said:


> I have been following these posts with great interest. I do many of things recommended, and have for quite sometime. Nothing has changed from her side. We have had sex 'maybe' six times this year, and I have started feeling anxious when we do, leading to predictable results (quick).The other night she told me " I love you, but physical attraction, not so much". This hit me like a hard punch to the heart! Right now I feel lonely,rejected and depressed. I am crazy in Love with her, and do not want to split up, but am feeling increasingly like it might be the only solution. I don't want a roommate, I want a Wife! Any ideas?


You'll find plenty here, in many places and forms.

Two main strands:

1 Improve yourself and become the man she desires;

2 Scare the living sh*t out of her by threatening to leave (and meaning it).

Devil's in the details...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

toadie said:


> I have done all of this for months. This is clearly not getting me anywhere. I'm leaning more towards the approach found in NMMNG and MMSL to see how that works. If it doesn't then our marriage is screwed because I will not accept a sexless marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good! don't accept it. 

If something isn't acceptable to me, I say so.
But as a woman, I probably do it differently.
I don't say "or else". I say things like:

It is unacceptable because it will cause our marriage to end.
It is unacceptable because it does not allow us to be the best loving parents we can be (examples here)

Notice there is no "I will explode if I dont have sex" comment. 

Yeah, I've had that I'm gonna explode feeling, but I never verbalized it that way because that was a "me" statement and no matter how I said it, it sounded like I was whining that I wasn't getting my own way and my spouse tuned it out and starting running those tapes of resentment. Why should I give you what you want, you don't do this for.

I kept it very strictly to a level that it is unaceptable for the marriage to be successful. 

And I hit it with questions. What do you think will happen if we don't address this? (the marriage will die). 
What do you think we can do together to improve this? (spend more time together, a lot of examples found all over this forum).

I found from my own personal experiences that wording it this way kept the shift off the keeping score. Not blaming directly, or demanding behavior. Just pointing out that it needed to be resolved or the marriage would die. That's a fact. See who speaks up first. Leave it for a few days.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

QUOTE=toadie;521665]I have done all of this for months. This is clearly not getting me anywhere. I'm leaning more towards the approach found in NMMNG and MMSL to see how that works. If it doesn't then our marriage is screwed because I will not accept a sexless marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Just a word of caution that NMMNG is not a recipe for marriage success. That part is in the book but somehow some guys manage to miss that. It is a recipe for finding and expressing yourself and not burying yourself under the weight of expectations.

What will definitely happen with NMMNG is that your wife will respect you more (although it may be begruding respect rather than the admiration you hope to get). By not allowing her to continue to use you while she withholds, she will have to either do more for herself (which will make it clear how much you DO provide) or she will have to fall back into line and meet your need while she works on her problems.

Fake it to make is not an ideal solution, but it will get you out of your current dynamic and make her see that your needs and wants will count for something. You just need to be aware that she may choose to walk rather than put more effort into you.


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

DTO said:


> Just a word of caution that NMMNG is not a recipe for marriage success. That part is in the book but somehow some guys manage to miss that. It is a recipe for finding and expressing yourself and not burying yourself under the weight of expectations.


I've gathered this and I'm fine with the consequences. Either it will work, or it won't. Part of what I've realized as that as we both approach 40 (she's older than I am), she will have a much harder time trying to replace what I can offer her than I will trying to replace what she can but won't offer. What I've been doing has not been effective prior to reading the books, so it's time to try something else. The books really did nail me, so I'm doing this to improve myself and if that changes something in our marriage for the better, it's a close secondary goal.



> What will definitely happen with NMMNG is that your wife will respect you more (although it may be begruding respect rather than the admiration you hope to get). By not allowing her to continue to use you while she withholds, she will have to either do more for herself (which will make it clear how much you DO provide) or she will have to fall back into line and meet your need while she works on her problems.
> 
> Fake it to make is not an ideal solution, but it will get you out of your current dynamic and make her see that your needs and wants will count for something. You just need to be aware that she may choose to walk rather than put more effort into you.


I don't think she will walk, but if so, there's not much I can do about it. I've been working on a few of the things from those books (taking the lead and making trivial decisions without asking her opinion) and so far I can tell she's been a bit surprised in a good way. The weight loss I had already done, and I can tell that makes her a bit uncomfortable now that I'm in really good shape physically. Just in the past week, she's reduced nagging comments to almost none. It's just little things, though, so it may take a bit of time for her to fully notice the difference, with the exception of the random gifts, which are over for now.

She'll notice not getting flowers or gifts fairly quickly, because it was something I did for her fairly often. This will be a big one for her, since her top "love language" was receiving gifts, so it's important to her. It all seems rather mean, and in some ways too much of a damned game, but whatever. Not buying gifts is pretty easy to do, lol.


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

toadie said:


> I've been working on a few of the things from those books (taking the lead and making trivial decisions without asking her opinion) and so far I can tell she's been a bit surprised in a good way. .


Keep the leadership thing going. You should notice more and more positive responses from her. 

You might want to plan and execute a date with her to a restaurant. plan ahead where to take her and tell a few days in advance that you want to take her out to eat. don't ask her where she wants to go. Just tell her when to be ready. Now she may think this is a nice gesture. But it's really not. It is designed to show her that you still know how to date, to show her that this is the kind of treatment that you can bring to another woman. Shows that you are fully capable of attracting others. 

Please do report back on this thread about how it is going. My best friend is in the same boat as you. Something in the way you write tells me that you have a good chance of getting real progress with your mate.

Good Luck


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

toadie said:


> What I've been doing has not been effective prior to reading the books, so it's time to try something else.
> 
> She'll notice not getting flowers or gifts fairly quickly, because it was something I did for her fairly often. This will be a big one for her, since her top "love language" was receiving gifts, so it's important to her. It all seems rather mean, and in some ways too much of a damned game, but whatever. Not buying gifts is pretty easy to do, lol.


It's good you understand that, after a time, it's not a matter of pouring out more love and service and the dynamic needs to be shifted. It's also good that you have identified an issue which ultimately is not crucial but will get her attention nonetheless.

If I were you, I would not think of this as game playing. You are merely taking the best of three bad options available right now (the other two being changing nothing or simply walking away at this point). I would also not think of this of being mean - that may leave you open to manipulation and guilt trips.

Lead and be resolute!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The Wise Enchantress chimes in with another keen observation. 

NO question about the power of "desire to please". I remember finally telling my W - "babe we ALL wish the day was longer. It makes me feel bad when you wait til you are really tired until you come to bed". And in the spirit of being a good partner she made more of an effort. And she was also good after that when I would playfully nudge her and say "yawing is not a part of foreplay" with a smile. She would say I'm wide awake, "give me 20 minutes" and give me a wicked smile. 




Enchantment said:


> It is interesting that a number of polls have shown that more women do prefer sleep to sex (all you have to do is Google "do women prefer sleeping over sex?"). And, a lot of women do not have that same compulsion for sex that men do.
> 
> But, it goes back to that desire thing again. Not the desire to have sex... but the desire to please your spouse... the desire to be committed to your relationship. Without THAT desire present, it's just a very one-sided venture.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Toadie,
You seem smart and determined. My W of 20+ years treats me very well. That said, she has tested most of the boundaries below at one time or another. Luckily she has a great sense of humor, so when I firmly (but humorously) respond she takes it in good spirit and responds like a grown up. 

The stuff below should be generally useful. 


Introduction

Boundary testing: A boundary test is an interaction that violates the golden rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you). 

This handbook is for folks in LTRs including marriage. It is mostly predicated on two things: (1) situational awareness and (2) self control. Being highly aware of boundary testing behaviors will only help you if you are able to manage your Anger, Fear and Insecurity. Get a handle on those and the rest of this is just technique. Practice and you will get good at it. 

If you want to get the most out of this handbook, you should consider the strategies below. 
1.	This is about patterns of behavior not the occasional oops. The purpose here is not to turn anyone into a hyper-vigilant whack job who takes everything personally. 
2.	After a first read, while filled with indignation about all of your partner’s boundary violations, ask yourself:
a.	How often you do this type of stuff to them
b.	When you do it, do they make a big deal about it, or not
c.	Whether this is a boundary issue or a different type of relationship issue (maybe you talk too much about stuff they find boring, or maybe you complain a lot more than you realize)
3.	If you decide that your boundaries really are getting badly violated, take heart:
a.	Your partner is likely VERY consistent. This means you can plan ahead how you will respond to these boundary breaching behaviors.
b.	Humor is best, but you should be teasing THEM. Absent humor, be VERY short on words. Instead use of tone of voice and body language. And stay calm – they may not be calm – but you must. 
4.	Are they really behaving badly “overall” or are your standards unrealistic? The best way to triangulate:
a.	Do your friends/family show much more respect for your boundaries than your partner does? 
b.	Does your partner show much more respect for their friends and families boundaries than yours? 

In general you have a serious problem if your partner treats other people noticeably better than they treat you. And if other people treat you a lot better than your partner, that is another bad sign. 

The good news. Even if your partner is consistently violating your boundaries and treating you worse than they treat the maid, it is likely fixable. In fact boundary management can become one of the most entertaining aspects of your marriage if you master it. Engage properly with your “boundary testing partner” and it will help you reach your full emotional potential. And a partner who helps you reach your full potential is by definition a great partner. The stuff below is rarely malicious, it is just a “style of interaction”. 

The bad news. If you do not enforce your boundaries, your partner will gradually lose respect and ultimately love for you. They will frequently do things to you they would absolutely not accept you or anyone else doing to them and they will slowly but surely get “worse” over time. You have two choices, learn how to enforce your boundaries, or continue getting your butt slowly but steadily kicked until you literally have no a$$ left and no choice but to stand at attention and do “each and every little thing that pops into their head” until they tire of you and find someone more fun to play with. 

The way a typical person deals with a boundary testing partner is this: 
-	The tester does a series of minor things you dislike. Each of those things is below your threshold for conflict. Hey you’re a grownup. You don’t sweat the small stuff. You don’t want to be petty. Besides you love your spouse and these individual items are “NOT WORTH A FIGHT”. Meanwhile you DO notice this stuff and it is slowly making you angry. 
-	Finally they do one more of them after you have had a long stressful day, or you are tired, or worse have had a few beers. You now erupt into high intensity conflict HIC mode. You say and do inappropriate things. When the dust settles you apologize for being a jerk. Which you SHOULD, because you WERE a jerk. Classic passive/aggressive. Very destructive. After having that happen enough you decide you no longer want to fight (since you always lose) and you simply become passive/passive. 

If you want to get good at this the first step is to recognize the main categories of boundary testing:
1.	I am more important than you are (my time, my feelings, my priorities, my money, my social status)
2.	You are not important: Everything and everybody else in my life consistently gets prioritized ahead of you. 
3.	I am able to directly control your emotional state. I can make you angry, afraid and/or insecure at will
4.	I am able to manipulate your actions through a combination of 1 and 2 in a manner that clearly violates the golden rule 

Before digging into the long, near exhaustive (and therefore possibly boring  list of categorized boundary violating behaviors), I am going to hit the “deadly” dozen. I am starting with the topic of apologies. Or non-apologies. Or one of my favorites “I’m mad at you because you’re mad at me”. 

Chapter 1: I am more important than you are

Apologies: The technical term for this section is “error management”. I am not even going to call this “conflict” management. Because there are folks who excel at “jumping over” their own bad behavior. Literally they pretend like nothing happened, and they often get away with it. This is a big aspect of a relationship, maybe even be THE biggest one. We all make mistakes, treat each other unfairly, etc. The list below goes from your basic perfect world, slowly down the steps to Hell. For the purpose of this discussion, let’s pick a case where a few things are true. (1) Your partner has very clearly treated you badly. (2) There is no way they would tolerate you doing to them, what they just did to you. (3) You are no longer “in the moment”, and in fact have some quality time in which the event can/should be addressed. 

I call this section “apologies” only because that is actually the standard way in which 21st century people think about redress. The irony is that a “spoken” apology might mean a lot, and it might mean almost nothing. You cannot tell the first time around. You can however tell if someone keeps doing the same “unkind” thing to you and then sincerely apologizing. Those apologies are hollow. 

1.	GOLD STANDARD: THEY bring it up shortly after it happens. They don’t wait to see if you will let it go. THEY believe you deserve better than that. They apologize, commit to behaving better next time, and do something nice for you to show their contrition is sincere.
2.	When you bring it up they apologize, commit to fixing it and perform some acts of contrition. 
3.	They don’t apologize but they DO commit to not repeating the behavior. If sincere, this is actually WAY more important than an apology. 
4.	They sincerely apologize but avoid committing to change. Beware the “empty” apology that means nothing. This step is however a positive step. By the second or third empty apology you simply begin insisting on a commitment to improve.
5.	They flat out refuse to commit to handling that type situation differently/better in the future 
6.	They give you the non-apology. Some variation of “I am sorry if that hurt your feelings”. The implication is that you are too sensitive. 
7.	They go into “lawyer” mode and explain that while normally this behavior is frowned on, in this specific case it was justified by “insert long, self serving rationalization”. 
8.	They directly blame you. If only you hadn’t forgotten to take about the trash on Memorial day 3 years ago, they wouldn’t still be angry and would never have done this. 
9.	They deny the whole thing. Look you in the eye and deny that it ever happened. 
10.	They deny the whole thing and attack you for even SUGGESTING they might do something like that.
11.	They deny, attack you for suggesting it and then blow it up into “I am not even talking to you until you apologize” for even saying such a thing. 



Assuming you are generally emotionally positive/upbeat and are also conversationally competent, (you don’t subject your partner to endless observations about particle physics, needlepoint, or other stuff they find deadly boring) the stuff below is “I am more important than you”

Focus: 
Some litmus test questions for focus are: 
1.	How difficult is it to get your partners full and undivided attention? 
2.	Does your partner expect or demand your undivided attention, but rarely give you theirs?
3.	Does your partner try to avoid situations where the two of you block out the rest of the world?

If you are interesting and fun to be with, you should address these types of behaviors because they tend to cause ripple effects throughout the relationship. 

Quality Time:
While having dinner for two your partners phone comes out and stays out while they multi-task between your conversation, and a phone based game/texting/talking on the phone. In an extreme case, the phone, not you, is primary focus. This applies to any “one on one” situation including standing in a long line. 

It is ok if your partner is “child focused” to the point where they feel the need to be “available” to the kids/baby sitter while you are out. But that means they only take calls from the kids, keep them brief AND emphasize to the kids/sitter that they want communication limited to urgent matters. 

In the normal course of your day, it is a bad idea to:
1.	Allow your partner to get in the habit of initiating a conversation with you while they are engaged in an activity (reading/texting) that also requires concentration. 
2.	Get in the habit of initiating a conversation while your partner is doing something (reading/texting) with you expecting and clearly being agreeable to getting at most partial attention.
3.	Continue a conversation even though your partner is getting frequently interrupted by non-urgent kids/calls/texts/etc. If they are legitimately busy, go do something else. Hey you have a phone too.
4.	Continue a conversation when your partner is clearly distracted/not fully engaged due to their "internal" state (boredom, fatigue, anxiety about something). If they are anxious about something, get them to talk about it. But don’t settle for partial attention. 

Prioritization:
Don’t confuse “focus” with “prioritization”. A good example of the distinction: You spend 8 uninterrupted hours together, and your partner is focused – but the WHOLE conversation is about THEM. Even worse, when you attempt to actually change the subject to you, they quickly steer it back to themselves. This is a matter of “I am paying attention to you solely to ensure we are both completely focused on ME”. 
Some litmus test questions for prioritization are: 
1.	How often does your partner really want to know about your day? I don’t mean they ask the perfunctory “how was your day”? I mean, they really want to know. And when you tell them they empathize and even ask some questions. 
2.	How often do you actually do what “you” want, when your partner wants to do something else? 
3.	How often do they even open up with “what/where would you like to “go/do”?

The spectrum for handling priority “conflicts” is below. From “great” to – “why don’t my needs matter”?:
1.	Giving: They know you. And that means they know what matters to you. If the conflict is in an area where it is very important to you, and not so much to them, they smile and do what makes you happy. 
2.	Proactive: THEY suggest a solution which meets both your needs even if it isn’t exactly what you want right now. 
3.	Reactive/cooperative: They don’t make a win/win suggestion, but are fully receptive to yours
4.	Reactive/resistant: They resist but ultimately agree to the win/win
5.	Oppositional/defiant: They refuse the win/win even when it is fair. They want what they want. What you want – well that doesn’t matter because ummmm – well – you don’t matter.

B. Tone: (from good to – why the hell did I marry this person)
1.	Using a loving, patient and kind tone
2.	Using a neutral tone
3.	Speaking to you as if you are less than an equal/a servant - issuing commands - instead of making requests 
4.	Responding to a serious/awkward question you have asked - with silence
5.	Interrupting you frequently and/or interrupting you without acknowledging they have done so with a - "sorry I interrupted - what were you saying"?
6.	Allowing or subtly encouraging THEIR friends/family to routinely interrupt you 
7.	Frequently putting you down in private sometimes under the guise of joking around 
8.	Putting you down in public 
9.	Being quickly/casually dismissive of your suggestions, requests and/or ideas
10.	When you first see each other at the end of a work day immediately complaining, nagging, launching into a long detailed self focused interaction
11.	Responding with impatience/anger/indifference when you are trying to convey something important/intimate about yourself (such as initiating sex, or actually while you are having sex, or sharing a painful experience)

2. If you let them, these “may or may not be” examples of “I can control your emotional state”: 
A.	In the middle of a low emotion conversation you get “sucker punched”. Which means your partner is being highly critical of you, and/or is very angry/threatening towards you without any warning and with little or no apparent reason
B.	Trying to get you to own “their” emotions. For instance “I am too stressed” to ever be in the mood. This is an indirect way to say “unless you can remove most/all the stressors from my environment” you will be involuntary celibate “inCel”
C.	Repeatedly delivering a critical or negative message wrapped in humor and claiming “they are just kidding”
D.	Taking their bad day out “on” you, instead of sharing it “with” you 
E.	Attacking your “core” instead of addressing a situation
F.	Attacking your behavior with “always and never” you always “…” you never “…” 
G.	Rapidly escalating in emotional intensity and aggressiveness when you disagree with how they are treating you
H.	Working the “fear” button by:
o Vague or not so vague threats to end the relationship
o	Forming and pursuing inappropriate relationships with potential mates

3. If you let them, these “may or may not be” examples of “I can control your behavior”: 
A. Acting angry when:
o	They were clearly in the wrong until YOU apologize or
o	Until YOU try to defuse by being extra nice even if you don’t overtly apologize
o	You bring up a topic they don’t want to discuss (lack of sex, rude behavior on their part, inconsiderate behavior on their part)
o	You talk about doing something they don’t want you to do, and when asked about “why” they don’t want you to do it, giving you the “shutdown” via “I am not going to discuss this with you”. Staying angry until you agree not to do it
o	They aren’t getting their way
B. Accusing YOU of being controlling when:
o	You are simply enforcing reasonable boundaries 
o	You are asking them to follow through on a commitment 
C. Getting you to complement them or even getting you to initiate sex when they have no intention of saying yes. This category is a type of transfer of “self esteem”. They get the boost of knowing you “want” them, and you get rejected/told they DON’T want you. 
o	Flirting with you during the day and then avoiding bed until they are “too tired”
o	Flirting with you and then when you initiate, creating some conflict to avoid sex
o	Asking you for compliments on their appearance when they never reciprocate 

My W fell in love with the Man she knew I could become. And she then proceeded to apply a relentless mix of love and pain to help me get there. If I had simply understood the curriculum at the beginning, the process would have been much less painful. Of course she would say I did the same for her. Maybe that’s true, but it sure feels like I have learned more. 







toadie said:


> I've gathered this and I'm fine with the consequences. Either it will work, or it won't. Part of what I've realized as that as we both approach 40 (she's older than I am), she will have a much harder time trying to replace what I can offer her than I will trying to replace what she can but won't offer. What I've been doing has not been effective prior to reading the books, so it's time to try something else. The books really did nail me, so I'm doing this to improve myself and if that changes something in our marriage for the better, it's a close secondary goal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## toadie (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks for that. Yes, after reading that it's clear that she tests a lot of my boundaries and that I have let her, to the point that I have lost my cool on a couple of occasions. Lesson learned. This is a fairly slow process, so it might be a while before I have any substantive updates. I really appreciate all of the input from everyone. Very helpful!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## janesmith (Nov 29, 2010)

I made the mistake many of us make when communicating with our spouse. I was speaking to him the way I would talk with my girlfiends who absolutely knew what I meant when I said i felt "emotionally bereft" . Dont, laugh, lol....okay....laugh because its that ridiculous.

I needed to tell this man specifically what I needed him to stop doing or start doing. It was as simple as that. Because he truely loved me and wanted me to be happy, he tries his hardest to give me what I want and need.

Im mad i wasted so much time talking to him like he was a chick and not getting any where. Make your wife accountable to communicate with you in a way you can understand.


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## jdlev (Nov 5, 2010)

This thread is mind numbing. If a man complains that his marriage's sex life sucks....it has to be something he's doing. The first two pages are almost entirely women either blaming the man for not doing something or shedding absolutely no light on what actually charges up women 

What's even more hilarious is that men have to spend 15 hours a week at the woman's level, fulfilling the woman's needs, doing what she wants, and there still isn't any finishline at the end of that marathon for the men. For the woman to meet the man's needs, all she has to give the man is 15 minutes of the emotional intimacy that sex brings (which meets the emotional intimacy needs of BOTH husbands and wives though probably moreso for the men). Yet, all we hear is worn out cliche' of how marriage is a 100%/100% contribution from both partners. How is a 15 hour to 15 minute ratio anywhere even close to women doing their part. That's a SIXTY TO ONE ratio of commitment made by men that is very rarely even reverberated.

Women, you need to WAKE UP and understand what's going on in your husbands head. We see some young thing bouncing around on TV, and yes...it turns us on. It starts our engines over which we have little to no control. It's what however many millennia have hard wired into our DNA. But that ISN'T what is going on in your man's head....you need to separate INSTINCT from the emotional depth of your man, and if you actually bothered to consider what is going on in your husband's head instead of jumping to the conclusion that men just want to hump anything with a pulse and nice rack...you'd know that. Society has pigeon holed men into this Testosterone fueled, emotionless, self-centered, booty-crazed Neanderthal that's only interested in one thing...using you as much as possible and then rolling over and passing out. NEWSFLASH...if that's all men wanted and cared about, there are PETABYTES of porn online, a $2 bottle of lotion, and hours of wrist workouts that he could enjoy to his heart's content. SEX means SO MUCH MORE to a man that what most women have been brainwashed into believing. Yes, brainwashed. Since you put on your first training bra, what was the only thing you heard, "Men are only interested in one thing...men are only interested in one thing...men are only interested in one thing..." You want to know what sex really means to a man, here are just a few things off the top of my head:

*It's the closest we can get to our spouse
*It's the materialization of love...the act of love
*It's when the rest of the world ceases to exist...work...the kids...all life's stresses...gone
*It's where we get our sense of self-worth, pride, and ego
*It's what recharges our batteries so we can sit through this mind numbingly idiotic shows like project runway, top model, and every other reality tv show
*It's what makes us feel loved and appreciated
*It's a problem solver - the little things that we used to complain about...the dishes...cleaning...or whatever other chores...all those things don't seem so important anymore - it rebalances our priorities and allows us to put our wives up on a pedestal...where they belong.
*It's the one thing that (hopefully) only the two of you can share
*It reset's our mood...because instead of us constantly asking wtf are we doing wrong...we sit there and think about how wonderful life is and how much our wives are still into us.

THAT IS THE TRUE DEFINITION OF SEX TO A MAN!

We may walk around and beat our chests and look like we have the emotional weight of a teaspoon, but a man's ego is an incredibly fragile thing. You want to know why we may avoid you, have affairs (which of course I don't condone), or just fade away? We already rack our brains about everything we're doing wrong because men are do'ers. We see something that broken, we fix it...or at least try to. We beg the women in our lives for even a hint that they still find us desireable...that they WANT to be with us.

Yet women rob not only the men in their lives of the very essence of what a MARRIAGE is supposed to be all about, they unknowingly hurt themselves as well. What happens when a man tries over and over (and over and over and over and over....) to come on to his wife and he get's the cold shoulder 80 or 90% of the time. I'm not even talking about an hourly basis here folks...I'm talking ONCE A WEEK OR TWO. Where the man is felt that he is less important that sleep...or the kids...or work....or stress...or tomorrow morning's workout....or emailing...or talking on the phone....or WHATEVER...the point is men take a back seat to almost EVERYTHING in women's lives. And women wonder why men 'just don't try anymore' or 'don't act like they care anymore'. It's because they've had it seared into their brains that THEY mean less to you that every other trivial activity in your lives. 

Ladies....just try something simple and see how your life changes. COME ON TO YOUR MAN FOR A CHANGE. I'm not talking about wearing something sexy. It can be as simple as whispering something dirty in his ear. "My breasts require your hands", "I can't even tell you how bad I want you right now"....tease him a little bit...rub your breasts/hindquarters on him....bend over around him and make sure he notices...and let him know that you LIKED that he noticed...that it turns you on that he still looks at you in that way....hell, get really raunchy and start teasing his junk at the dinner table (without the kids around OBVIOUSLY!) or while he's focused on something else. Simple, tiny, insignificant acts like these will make your husband want you more than you ever thought possible...yes, because of the physical element involved, but moreso because he FEELS wanted, sexy, desireable. There's nothing that boosts my ego more than when my wife gives me some lame excuse about why we can't have sex, and she gives in and really has a great time having sex...of course...that works like 5% of the time...

Now, watch his reaction...not just in that moment, but for the next couple days. You'll notice him complain less, be in a better mood, help around the house more, surprise you by wanting to cuddle/hold hands/etc. Just like a woman needs to 'feel' a certain way to prime the pump, a man has to have his needs met as well - and most importantly - HE SHOULDN'T FEEL LIKE HE HAS TO BEG FOR IT OR HAVE PITY SEX ALL THE TIME! 

The fact that women have such a tremendous power in marriage almost makes me wish I were gay...because 15 minutes once or twice a week has the power to transform your man and your marriage into something truly incredible...and God only knows why...BUT 95% OF YOU DON'T DO IT.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Zombie thread.

Closing.


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