# On conditioning and what we are taught



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

We hear about this in many, many threads. Men and women are "conditioned" and "taught" these things about their gender, their socioeconomic reality. Really everything. I discarded most of this damaging conditioning in my mid-twenties. I'll grant that I had the influence of some smart people helping me see the light.

That said, some of the more seriously ingrained beliefs about ourselves are harder to shed. For me, they tend to be personal, not gender, class or any other category based.

What do you think? How much of your behavior is a result of your rearing? How much of it is negative? Is this something you feel you can overcome or are stuck with?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I was raised to feel like a perpetual f*ck up. Despite my wife and kids (and now grandkids), my friends, education and successful career, and despite knowing better, there will always be a part of me that still feels like a perpetual f*ck up.

Crap like that can be hard to shake off.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Growing up I was never taught about conditioning which pisses me off, my hair has never been so soft and full since I started doing earlier this year...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

GTdad said:


> I was raised to feel like a perpetual f*ck up. Despite my wife and kids (and now grandkids), my friends, education and successful career, and despite knowing better, there will always be a part of me that still feels like a perpetual f*ck up.
> 
> Crap like that can be hard to shake off.


Yah it is also the personal stuff for me. But we see so much about gender learning. I wonder how much of that is also hard for folks to get past.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Growing up I was never taught about conditioning which pisses me off, my hair has never been so soft and full since I started doing earlier this year...


Dork. (Which you need to know is one of the highest terms of endearment.)


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I am not sure if I have any really hardened beliefs that go beyond personal. For example, my parents always taught me to be respectful, accountable for my own actions, and just try to be the best person I can be.

I did notice that my mom treated my sister differently then me (she was much harder on her, possibly held her to a different standard than myself). However, I could argue that part of that was earned on my part vs. her.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> ....That said, some of the more seriously ingrained beliefs about ourselves are harder to shed....
> 
> ....Is this something you feel you can overcome or are stuck with?


With the right motivation you can pretty much reinvent yourself. You night not become a star athlete, but you can do just about anything.

Affirmations, self-hypnosis are ways of reprogramming or changing your "conditioning."

Most self help books have some aspect of personal change.

Good Luck.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> With the right motivation you can pretty much reinvent yourself. You night not become a star athlete, but you can do just about anything.
> 
> Affirmations, self-hypnosis are ways of reprogramming or changing your "conditioning."
> 
> ...


I am not super worried about myself in this thread. I am just cogitating on all the messages that we get growing up that give strange relationship expectations and wonder to what degree people feel that it continues to affect them.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What is funny is that I can recognize my own conditioning, but am pretty much unable to resist it. 

I have what is basically a "never abandon responsibility" sense, whether its people, pets, job. That is nice in moderation but a problem when it becomes an absolute as it has for me.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I guess for me it was reverse. I was taught the right things. Grew up in a home that had the good ole blue collar mentality, hard work conquers all. Was the first in my family to get a college degree. For most of you that's not a big deal but for me it was like conquering Everest. I felt at that point there was no task too big for me. Then I got married to someone who seemed to be on the same path, only came from a wealthy family. That's where all the misconceptions started. They hated me because I was "poor". After listening to this crap for a long time I started to believe it. It's been very hard to unlearn this.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

well there is something to be said about nature vs. nurture.....we are all conditioned in one way or another, whether it was positive or negative is subjected to hours of analysis. I suspect on some level many of us, who were brought up in a "normal" household could look back and consider it more dysfunctional than functional. That disruption in that condition, whether in regards to gender roles or otherwise, can happen, does happen when we are introduced to stimulate that squarely contradicts what originally made sense. But i also suspect that on some other level we keep going back to those conditions because on some deeper level we feel comfortable, we feel more secure in ourselves in some bizarre and strange way.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> We hear about this in many, many threads. Men and women are "conditioned" and "taught" these things about their gender, their socioeconomic reality. Really everything. I discarded most of this damaging conditioning in my mid-twenties. I'll grant that I had the influence of some smart people helping me see the light.
> 
> That said, some of the more seriously ingrained beliefs about ourselves are harder to shed. For me, they tend to be personal, not gender, class or any other category based.
> 
> What do you think? How much of your behavior is a result of your rearing? How much of it is negative? Is this something you feel you can overcome or are stuck with?


You are aware of my conditioning and you've mentioned it as being very negative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I've had a few "AHA!!" moments in my life when I suddenly realized I was doing something simply because that's what I'd been taught growing up. I still hear myself say or do something sometimes and think OMFG I SOUND JUST LIKE MY MOTHER.

My husband tends to perpetuate many of these things - he is HIGHLY conditioned by his upbringing but doesn't realize it. So it's become somewhat of a challenge I have for myself to recognize the conditioning, deal with it in myself, and then change HIS mind about it


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

I was subjected to the usual male/female stereotypes growing up. I had boy toys and colors while my sister had girl toys and colors. My parents marriage is traditional for the most part. My mom was usually a SAHM though she worked for awhile to help make ends meet. 

One difference was that my mom like carpentry and put time into remodeling our house. I remember one Christmas she got a radial arm saw which she used a lot. So while I was in a traditional environment I was also exposed to women doing male things without it being put down or ridiculed. 

I didn't see too much gender stereotyping at school but then again I was a haole and ridiculed for being white and probably didn't notice. There were many titas where I lived which were the Hawaiian equivalent to extreme Tom boys who wouldn't think twice about giving you a sucker punch. 

I practiced Judo but even there there were a few girls who were actually really good but their advancement was slower. So this is really the only place I remember discrimination of women until I went to college and one of my professors told one of my women classmates that she needed to attend finishing school. I didn't even know what that was until she told me how insulting it was. 

It was a lot more noticeable on the mainland especially in working class environments. I see it in my wife's field, and mine.

So to answer your question, I think I was isolated from the more heinous conditioning when I was young. I was taught to be respectful of everyone regardless of gendor or race. Opening a door for someone wasn't restricted to ladies it was just being courteous. 

Strangely enough my dad was an anti-feminist. He once was so taken aback after being verbally accosted by a woman for presuming to open the door for her that he reevaluated feminism personally. He thought and still does that feminism embodied by womyn like that was disrespectful and something to be avoided and so lobbied against the ERA.

My take on the event was that she was a jerk who made the mistake of ascribing a motive to an innocuous action. From this I learned to avoid this kind of assumption in my interactions for the most part.

So I think the aloha spirit (at least in the 60s & 70s) and my dads egalitarian philosophy's over ruled the standard conditioning that I see alive and well where I live now.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not super worried about myself in this thread. *I am just cogitating on all the messages that we get growing up that give strange relationship expectations and wonder to what degree people feel that it continues to affect them.*


Can you give some examples of what you consider "Strange relationship expectations" ? 

I grew up to see varying relationships dynamics at play.. from my parents who were a horrible match (thankfully they divorced) , to one set of Grandparents (average traditional model for the most part) to my other Grandmother's life story... (one I admired and hoped to find a man like my Grandfather)....I've always been one who payed attention and tried to learn something from what all was playing down in front of me...whether it be good or bad.. and rationalize how I would handle such a thing or how to avoid putting myself in that scenario altogether..if I found something distasteful or harmful. 

I wasn't one to think... just because I grew up with something it was the right way .. many times it was very WRONG.....

I certainly didn't have the best parental guidance or influence upon me.. so when I got to be a parent myself.. we did things *our way*.. or I gleamed the good from what I have seen around me growing up.. from my Grandmothers influence to Friends parents, or friends themselves...us sharing about our marriages/ children as we grew...Some of those marriages are still together.. some have fallen apart over the years..

I think my expectations were normal if we go by the tenants expressed in His Needs, Her Needs...I understand there are those on this forum who do not like Harley and say very little in his books would apply to their marriages.. now that I would not understand personally. 

As far as Gender roles.. typically what has been stereotyped is TRUE for us.. my husband is better with tools... with math.. (I SUCK) I'd blow up the garage if I had to be the mechanic... I don't know how he has the patience with some of the stuff he gets into out there....he is very good with his hands, building things.. and I greatly appreciate that.. love my handy man!

I am better at cooking, cleaning, keeping our family schedule..... I have never felt this "menial" of me- even though others look upon such work as such....I'm simply better at it... more efficient - I even enjoy it... and he is the primary bread winner.. this is what we wanted when we set out....I still feel valued for my contributions in our household.. We're not totally traditional as I handle all the finances.. and I work some too...


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I've had a few "AHA!!" moments in my life when I suddenly realized I was doing something simply because that's what I'd been taught growing up. I still hear myself say or do something sometimes and think OMFG I SOUND JUST LIKE MY MOTHER.
> 
> My husband tends to perpetuate many of these things - he is HIGHLY conditioned by his upbringing but doesn't realize it. So it's become somewhat of a challenge I have for myself to recognize the conditioning, deal with it in myself, and then change HIS mind about it


Oh yeah, I've had plenty of those moments! 😁 I just think, I'm turning into my mom. Some of it is good, some bad. Then I can also see things that my husband does and it so reminds me of his father and sometimes, his mother. How I was raised plays a huge part in how I am now. But I have certainly changed since leaving the nest. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

meson said:


> Strangely enough my dad was an anti-feminist. He once was so taken aback after being verbally accosted by a woman for presuming to open the door for her that he reevaluated feminism personally. He thought and still does that feminism embodied by womyn like that was disrespectful and something to be avoided and so lobbied against the ERA.
> 
> My take on the event was that she was a jerk who made the mistake of ascribing a motive to an innocuous action. From this I learned to avoid this kind of assumption in my interactions for the most part.
> 
> So I think the aloha spirit (at least in the 60s & 70s) and my dads egalitarian philosophy's over ruled the standard conditioning that I see alive and well where I live now.


That's the kind of militant feminism prevalent in America today. We should all be against it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Can you give some examples of what you consider "Strange relationship expectations" ?


Gender ROLES based expectations rather than individual problem solving skills. Expecting an individual to adhere to stereotypes based on gender (men solve problems, women are emotionally unstable and dippy...) 



> I grew up to see varying relationships dynamics at play.. from my parents who were a horrible match (thankfully they divorced) , to one set of Grandparents (average traditional model for the most part) to my other Grandmother's life story... (one I admired and hoped to find a man like my Grandfather)....I've always been one who payed attention and tried to learn something from what all was playing down in front of me...whether it be good or bad.. and rationalize how I would handle such a thing or how to avoid putting myself in that scenario altogether..if I found something distasteful or harmful.
> 
> I wasn't one to think... just because I grew up with something it was the right way .. many times it was very WRONG.....


It SEEMS to me that some people skip the important adulting phase of making judgements for themselves. It seems to me that there are lots of people who get stuck with "how they were raised" on this board. Or the influences and silent message of "society". And I wondered what the difference might be between those folks and the people who look at the messages, accept the ones that seem right and true and reject the rest.



> I certainly didn't have the best parental guidance or influence upon me.. so when I got to be a parent myself.. we did things *our way*.. or I gleamed the good from what I have seen around me growing up.. from my Grandmothers influence to Friends parents, or friends themselves...us sharing about our marriages/ children as we grew...Some of those marriages are still together.. some have fallen apart over the years..
> 
> I think my expectations were normal if we go by the tenants expressed in His Needs, Her Needs...I understand there are those on this forum who do not like Harley and say very little in his books would apply to their marriages.. now that I would not understand personally.
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> Who cares about the gender role compared to the capability?


 I really do not know what you mean here. was it wrong for me to say what I did.. Those older gender roles were true for us.. does it matter.. I understand they are not for others.. is it a big deal to admit this... my husband is more sensitive over other men.. he doesn't like sports.. he's not the typical alpha male.. he also doesn't care to hunt & we have a lot of property he could do it all year round if he wanted.. he also watches the Bachelor with me.. some men might find all of that "too feminine" or something.... but he has enough "manly skills" to even him out.. and yeah. that does matter to me.. if I am being honest here.. 



> Who? I have seen you accuse people on this board of that all the time, though I have never actually seen anyone do it.


 I certainly have seen women do it here .. I have also seen women's work compared to the level of what a monkey can do ...that has been the lowest .. 

Beings you are a career woman (I am assuming)... you would not feel the jabs as I do ...when others have spoken like this.. but they DO stick out to me.. and No, I would not say that these things are menial (I used the word because others have referred to it as such).... 

Someone has to do them...we don't make enough money to hire a housekeeper.. so it's on someone in our family.. and that's well & good.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I really do not know what you mean here. was it wrong for me to say what I did.. Those older gender roles were true for us.. does it matter.. I understand they are not for others.. is it a big deal to admit this... my husband is more sensitive over other men...he doesn't like sports.. he's not the typical alpha male.. he also doesn't care to hunt & we have a lot of property he could do it all year round if he wanted.. he also watches the Bachelor with me.. some men might find all of that "too feminine" or something.... but he has enough "manly skills" to even him out.. and yeah. that does matter to me.. if I am being honest here..


My point is this. It is more important for you to accept WHO HE IS than what his gender says he should be. You recognize that. Not quite so much as to not be a big deal to "admit" something for which there is NO BLAME WHATSOEVER. Unless I misunderstand what "that does matter to me" means. You DO care, and find him lacking in the male department?




> I certainly have seen women do it here .. I have also seen women's work compared to the level of what a monkey can do ...that has been the lowest ..
> 
> Beings you are a career woman (I am assuming)... you would not feel the jabs as I do


When I was a SAHM, I NEVER got jabbed like this. Never. You have accused me of jabbing you in this way when your sensitivity makes you see things that just are not there. But I don't care about gender roles. That is my point. I find life a whole lot easier to live when I am free to do what is right for my family without giving a rats ass about "roles". When it was time to be a SAHM, I did that. And was happy. Now that it is time to work, I do that. And am happy. 




> ...when others have spoken like this.. but they DO stick out to me.. and No, I would not say that these things are menial (I used the word because others have referred to it as such)....
> 
> Someone has to do them...we don't make enough money to hire a housekeeper.. so it's on someone in our family.. and that's well & good.


You don't think it is all well and good or you would not be so defensive. *I* think it is all well and good. And you are HAPPY with the life you are making.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, we've all been conditioned to some extent. Often, we never really think about it, because it seems "normal."

IMO, the most insidious conditioning is religion. We're brought up in a particular faith, and are conditioned not to question it. Then it's gender roles - I think it will take another few generations for this to become mostly a non-issue for most people in western countries (we'll still see it elsewhere, and probably amongst first/second generation immigrants from those other countries). Also, ou biases and bigotry are often conditioned by our parents or peers (and religion), and it takes education and willing effort to see past it.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Yes, we've all been conditioned to some extent. Often, we never really think about it, because it seems "normal."
> 
> IMO, the most insidious conditioning is religion. We're brought up in a particular faith, and are conditioned not to question it. Then it's gender roles - I think it will take another few generations for this to become mostly a non-issue for most people in western countries (we'll still see it elsewhere, and probably amongst first/second generation immigrants from those other countries). Also, ou biases and bigotry are often conditioned by our parents or peers (and religion), and it takes education and willing effort to see past it.


IMO public schools are much worse than religion or standard gender roles. I think 100 years from now, we will regret trying to eradicate the standard gender roles.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Yes, we've all been conditioned to some extent. Often, we never really think about it, because it seems "normal."
> 
> IMO, the most insidious conditioning is religion. We're brought up in a particular faith, and are conditioned not to question it.


What causes some people to question it and others not? I don't get it. I was THE most serious Catholic there was. I used to write opinion pieces in defense of the faith at my Catholic school. And at some point, I scratched my head and said, how much sense does this make? 



> Then it's gender roles - I think it will take another few generations for this to become mostly a non-issue for most people in western countries (we'll still see it elsewhere, and probably amongst first/second generation immigrants from those other countries). Also, ou biases and bigotry are often conditioned by our parents or peers (and religion), and it takes education and willing effort to see past it.


Yah.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> What causes some people to question it and others not? I don't get it. I was THE most serious Catholic there was. I used to write opinion pieces in defense of the faith at my Catholic school. And at some point, I scratched my head and said, how much sense does this make?


I think it takes deep curiosity about the "why" of things, a real need to understand how things came to be the way they are, or discomfort when observing something you feel is unfair that starts you questioning if things could be different.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Oh, the ways we are conditioned! 

The first conditioning I see is the believe that "family of origin" is the primary source of conditioning.

But it is not.

Society exists for the purpose of creating a large group of people with similar beliefs. This allows more efficient commerce, lower cost provisioning of food, and an easier time for government to collect taxes. Once the society is formed, all manner of conditioning can be infused via "societal rules".

In the USA, in the 1950s, the gov't and industry formally decided to change the litmus test of economic health away from personal savings rate and onto personal spending rate. "Consumer spending rate" is the first statistic cited when reports of economic health are presented. This was predicted, by British economists, to create a huge dependent class. Americans were already deemed too stupid to educate their own children, so it became mandatory to send them to public school. Americans have now been deemed too stupid to plan their own retirements or choose health care, so there are monster systems to provide both - as long as the individual likes the particular kind of assistance offered.

Politicians, news media and on and on in subtle and not-so-subtle ways tell us over and over that "everything is broken" - which includes the individual - and we must vote for this politician or tax, or buy this thing, to be part of fixing it all.

And yet - humans are the only animal that can conceive of anything being broken.

Oh, have we been conditioned....!!!!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> My point is this. It is more important for you to accept WHO HE IS than what his gender says he should be. You recognize that. Not quite so much as to not be a big deal to "admit" something for which there is NO BLAME WHATSOEVER. Unless I misunderstand what "that does matter to me" means. You DO care, and find him lacking in the male department?


 I Do care to some extent... 

We have to look at the "Practicalities" of managing a home, a number of vehicles , take care of our property...we need so much skill...if one isn't financially able to call a mechanic every time something goes wrong , or get up on the roof, etc...it's important for one of us to be able to take charge, attend to these things... I am less inclined or capable... nor would he want me using a chain saw, or patching a roof...I am very thankful he can... I WANT THAT IN A MAN....I consider those manly things... I willingly help him but he is the Leader , taking command showing me what to do -to finish a Job or whatever... 

I guess I do not understand the point of your thread.... do you have an issue with anyone who appreciates the more traditional gender roles... I feel like I am being scolded for how I think.. or what I want to say... You think I should accept him any old way he is. If he couldn't work on our cars ..it would be more of a hardship for us. we probably wouldn't have our house today even....so we work together to manage our lifestyle, he has his role he takes more charge in.. and I have mine..... we both bring different things and it runs very smoothly... I mean. what if I never cooked, was a hoarder & left the house in shambles , to the point of being embarrassed if someone came to visit.. that would be rather disgraceful.. 

I guess my question is... so what if a couple was raised around more traditional gender roles.. if it worked well for their family.. should this be looked down upon today.. 

From what I see .. there is no shortage of those who want to obliterate the gender roles shaking the world to say.. NO ! No more....Men & women are the same.. I'm not really even sure what they are after ....total unabashed acceptance -on every level .. are they seeking for House husbands changing diapers to be just as attractive as a Firefighter might be.. I don't know.. I don't think we can dictate this so much.. even if it sounds good. 




> When I was a SAHM, I NEVER got jabbed like this. Never. You have accused me of jabbing you in this way when your sensitivity makes you see things that just are not there. But I don't care about gender roles. That is my point. I find life a whole lot easier to live when I am free to do what is right for my family without giving a rats ass about "roles". When it was time to be a SAHM, I did that. And was happy. Now that it is time to work, I do that. And am happy.


 I never got jabbed either till I came* here*.. it doesn't matter that much to me.. I have his support.. that's all I need. 

I'm going to chalk this up to your not caring for how I express myself.. it wasn't my intent to show any defensiveness...maybe a flawed writing style - adding more content that is necessary...when it's so not necessary to say ....I guess I should learn from this exchange..


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> What causes some people to question it and others not? I don't get it. I was THE most serious Catholic there was. I used to write opinion pieces in defense of the faith at my Catholic school. And at some point, I scratched my head and said, how much sense does this make?
> 
> 
> 
> Yah.


Many are conditioned not to question the way things are. Accepting them because that's the way it has been is valued by many and encouraged by religion. 

There are others who like to understand why things are and it's usually these people that break the mold of conditioning. Those people who prefer to align action with ideas will eventually encounter the inconsistencies in the way things are versus the way the aught to be.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I know for me I was conditioned to take a back seat in relationships. Where I grew up, small MN farming community, the standard advice passed from fathers to sons was "happy wife happy life". The meaning behind it was if you bend over backwards to do whatever and however your wife wants things she will be happy. Since she is happy she will then bend over backwards to make you happy. So the intent is for both parties to make out. However we know the reality of giver and taker personality and when you give to a taker all they do is want more and give nothing back. This philosophy was so engrained in mid west culture I had to move 1000 miles before I stopped hearing this phrase. It was funny because awhile back my GF was watching house hunters on HGTV and I walked in mid show with the husband, wife and realtor standing in a house. First words I hear the husband say is "well happy wife happy life" as he was giving in on something he wanted. I asked my GF are they from MN, Wisconsin or Iowa? She said Iowa, how did I know that....lol cause that's how I was raised.

Luckily as we learn and grow we can rise above the bad advice we were given growing up. Being from a small town also meant I was raised with racism, sexism, and homophobia run galore. Leaving that small world I learned that things happen very differently and grew above those. But the happy wife thing I clung to for dear life in marriage and that one cost me big time.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I guess I do not understand the point of your thread.... do you have an issue with anyone who appreciates the more traditional gender roles... I feel like I am being scolded for how I think..


You are not being scolded in the least. You read that into a LOT of things that have nothing to do with that. I have said this a number of times. But you seem completely unwilling to even CONSIDER it as a defense mechanism of your own insecurity. 

I could not care less what people CHOOSE. What I don't understand is people who wind up rutted in things that they don't CHOOSE because they feel that they have to because of their "conditioning".


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> You are not being scolded in the least. You read that into a LOT of things that have nothing to do with that. I have said this a number of times. But you seem completely unwilling to even CONSIDER it as a defense mechanism of your own insecurity.
> 
> I could not care less what people CHOOSE. What I don't understand is people who wind up rutted in things that they don't CHOOSE because they feel that they have to because of their "conditioning".


 Do you know people like this in real life.. who feel they can't be who they really are.. it seems pretty much anything is accepted today in America.. Look at Katelyn Jenner.. what more do we need to push for here? Anything goes . 

Curiously...I looked up why people today are so against gender roles.. you seem to be saying you are not, that you don't care...but you have strong feelings that one shouldn't condition , am I reading you wrong then? 

So you wouldn't agree with this article then -  Socially Constructed Gender Roles: The Root of All Evil


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wolf1974 said:


> I know for me I was conditioned to take a back seat in relationships. Where I grew up, small MN farming community, the standard advice passed from fathers to sons was "happy wife happy life". The meaning behind it was if you bend over backwards to do whatever and however your wife wants things she will be happy. Since she is happy she will then bend over backwards to make you happy. So the intent is for both parties to make out. However we know the reality of giver and taker personality and when you give to a taker all they do is want more and give nothing back. This philosophy was so engrained in mid west culture I had to move 1000 miles before I stopped hearing this phrase. It was funny because awhile back my GF was watching house hunters on HGTV and I walked in mid show with the husband, wife and realtor standing in a house. First words I hear the husband say is "well happy wife happy life" as he was giving in on something he wanted. I asked my GF are they from MN, Wisconsin or Iowa? She said Iowa, how did I know that....lol cause that's how I was raised.
> 
> Luckily as we learn and grow we can rise above the bad advice we were given growing up. Being from a small town also meant I was raised with racism, sexism, and homophobia run galore. Leaving that small world I learned that things happen very differently and grew above those. But the happy wife thing I clung to for dear life in marriage and that one cost me big time.


 My husband always felt this way too..he hasn't changed.. but there was a very different result.. so does this make it always bad. 

He has always been a Gentleman.. always put his wife, kids before himself.. it DOES make me want to give back..

It is so very important the man not be taken advantage of though. I wouldn't want that for any of our sons either ! yet I still hope they are Men who do right by their wives & children, and deeply care about their happiness. it goes both ways..


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Do you know people like this in real life..


Let me quote the original post for you to refresh your memory.



noebodyspecial said:


> We hear about this in many, many threads. Men and women are "conditioned" and "taught" these things about their gender, their socioeconomic reality. Really everything.


That said I DO know people like this also in RL. All wrapped up in how they were raised and what is expected of them.




> who feel they can't be who they really are.. it seems pretty much anything is accepted today in America.. Look at Katelyn Jenner.. what more do we need to push for here? Anything goes .
> 
> Curiously...I looked up why people today are so against gender roles.. you seem to be saying you are not, that you don't care...*but you have strong feelings that one shouldn't condition* , am I reading you wrong then?


Yes you are reading me wrong. You always do. Since I never said that.

Why don't I quote the original post again to refresh your memory.



nobodyspecial said:


> How much of your behavior is a result of your rearing? How much of it is negative? Is this something you feel you can overcome or are stuck with?


You are the only one on this thread who seems to have a problem with gender roles. I was asking what motivates people.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> I know for me I was conditioned to take a back seat in relationships. Where I grew up, small MN farming community, the standard advice passed from fathers to sons was "happy wife happy life". The meaning behind it was if you bend over backwards to do whatever and however your wife wants things she will be happy. Since she is happy she will then bend over backwards to make you happy. So the intent is for both parties to make out. However we know the reality of giver and taker personality and when you give to a taker all they do is want more and give nothing back. This philosophy was so engrained in mid west culture I had to move 1000 miles before I stopped hearing this phrase. It was funny because awhile back my GF was watching house hunters on HGTV and I walked in mid show with the husband, wife and realtor standing in a house. First words I hear the husband say is "well happy wife happy life" as he was giving in on something he wanted. I asked my GF are they from MN, Wisconsin or Iowa? She said Iowa, how did I know that....lol cause that's how I was raised.
> 
> Luckily as we learn and grow we can rise above the bad advice we were given growing up. Being from a small town also meant I was raised with racism, sexism, and homophobia run galore. Leaving that small world I learned that things happen very differently and grew above those. But the happy wife thing I clung to for dear life in marriage and that one cost me big time.


Happy Wife Happy Life implies a covert contract. I really struggled with this advice when I heard it (I am Midwest as well). Because their was no implication that the W had to do anything, I mean she has it all, so why should she do anything.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> My husband always felt this way too..he hasn't changed.. but there was a very different result.. so does this make it always bad.
> 
> He has always been a Gentleman.. always put his wife, kids before himself.. it DOES make me want to give back..
> 
> It is so very important the man not be taken advantage of though. I wouldn't want that for any of our sons either ! yet I still hope they are Men who do right by their wives & children, and deeply care about their happiness. it goes both ways..


Here is the thing SA. You love what your H does for you and you a) appreciate it and b) don't expect it and c) don't abuse it. Many of the issues I see on TAM from men struggling is they try the HWHL, but the covert contract is not followed by the W, so they get taken advantage of. I also think, from what I have read on TAM, that some women lose respect for their man, because they see this behavior as weak.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

C'mon @naiveonedave , I thought we learned that although HWHL doesn't necessarily improve a guy being happy in his marriage, he is happier in the other aspects of his life ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> C'mon @naiveonedave , I thought we learned that although HWHL doesn't necessarily improve a guy being happy in his marriage, he is happier in the other aspects of his life ...


The thing that makes no sense to me is thinking that enabling an entitled princess would actually MAKE HER HAPPY?!?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> The thing that makes no sense to me is thinking that enabling an entitled princess would actually MAKE HER HAPPY?!?


I don't think anyone is necessarily saying she will be happy per se. It does imply that if the guy wants to be "happy" he needs to put his W above himself. Under this, between the W and H, I would say this puts her in a more favorable position, especially if they are a taker. Whether right or wrong, this HWHL concept is something some (many?) guys have heard over the years, so fits in well with your conditioning theme.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

I was conditioned by my parents to believe that "good girls" waited for marriage to have sex. That men used "bad girls" (aka sexual women) for fun then settled down with the "good girl". They enforced extremely strict rules on my sister and myself. Strict curfews, no trips with bfs, not even allowed to go their homes to hang out. Living with a man before marriage meant you were a w****. Meanwhile, my brother was allowed to do whatever he wanted, date whoever, go on trips, lived with his wife before marriage. Not a peep from my parents. 

It wasn't until mid 20s that I realized I really didn't want a man who thought he could "use" women and settle down with a virginal bride. That there were plenty of men who could care less about marrying a virgin or how many men a woman slept with. The kind of men who slept around and judged women for doing the same were not even close to what I wanted for myself. I sort of felt cheated. Like those are the kind of men my parents wanted me to hold out for? Eww.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

naiveonedave said:


> Here is the thing SA. You love what your H does for you and you a) appreciate it and b) don't expect it and c) don't abuse it. Many of the issues I see on TAM from men struggling is they try the HWHL, but the covert contract is not followed by the W, so they get taken advantage of. I also think, from what I have read on TAM, that some women lose respect for their man, because they see this behavior as weak.


I agree with you.. Yes -these things DO happen, obviously the stories are here. not all people have our best interests at heart.. even if we marry them.. but sometimes there may be more to the story too... this "Covert contract" thing mentioned.. I've heard this explained before but not sure I fully "get it"...Isn't this where one spouse does something, could be anything - washes the dishes... then expects sex (for example)...I can tell you.. my husband never had this attitude... which I am sure helped...

I don't understand the women who would see their husbands as weak IF that attitude wasn't at play... if he is a very giving man...I tend to think anyone who abuses when someone is good to us.. is evil... I've been at the hands of people I hated living with.. I used to write on my bedroom wall "I hate ____ I hate _____ I hate _____" about my step mother... then erased it... 

So maybe I was more appreciative -since I was looking for love, to feel loved, when goodness walked into my life.. I wasn't going to abuse it or push it away.. .. though I did take some things for granted in the past with him -years into marriage (too focused on conceiving, kids) .. and his passivity wasn't helping matters.. but all in all.. I have always appreciated feeling loved and very special to someone.. 

I did a thread on this topic ...it took some backlash, as expected...as it's difficult to defend obviously.. if my husband posted here though.. he would say he is that sort of guy.. I know this.. he's always adhered to that.. I've never lost respect.. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...nt-happy-aint-nobody-happy-your-thoughts.html

For the record though.. this was put in there too..


> As wives...we need to feel this way in return *>> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BUt again... I hear what you are saying.. I would be the 1st to say NOT to put up with being taken advantage of.. Speak up! Nip that in the butt...Work it out.. or really.. LEAVE .. life is too short.. I think intimacy shared should be given freely on both sides , not coerced, or about some contract (that's very cold).. I see it more as wanting to give back.. that his or her happiness is essential to our own sort of thing..


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Growing up with immigrant parents, I got all the "you must get married and have children or life isn't worth living" conditioning. Growing up in a generally segregated large city, with lots of immigrants and minorities in my neighborhood, I was conditioned to be racist, homophobic, sexist. I was conditioned to believe guys just want sex and I needed to wait until marriage. I was conditioned to believe women could be sl*ts and men were "just sowing their wild oats." All I can say is I'm glad I missed religious conditioning entirely since my parents were not religious so I can view it all as interesting mythology, just like the Greek and Roman myths.

I'm very grateful for my university where I was able to meet people from all walks of life and was able to see so many different perspectives. I am grateful to be free of my conditioning and can just take or leave people based on their behavior and personality rather than holding racist or homophobic beliefs. And I'm truly grateful I didn't buy into the marriage imperative when I wasn't ready.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

This post reminds me of the story about the woman who was cooking a roast for supper one night. Her husband was watching and asked her why she cut the end off of it. She said because that's the way her mom taught her. Next time he saw her mom he asked her what the reason for this was, and the mom replied that it was because her roaster was very small so she had to cut the end off the roast so it would fit in it :rofl::rofl:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> This post reminds me of the story about the woman who was cooking a roast for supper one night. Her husband was watching and asked her why she cut the end off of it. She said because that's the way her mom taught her. Next time he saw her mom he asked her what the reason for this was, and the mom replied that it was because her roaster was very small so she had to cut the end off the roast so it would fit in it :rofl::rofl:


Totally funny but yet also true! This shows that one reason is that it's easier and requires no thought. So perhaps many reduce the complexity of life by just adopting that which they see is good enough. 

Another reason might be the desire to fit in. As kids we often learn conformity reduces ridicule and helps us fit in and become friends with others. This tendency for conformity would explain the adoption of many condition behaviors.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I don't think anyone is necessarily saying she will be happy per se. It does imply that if the guy wants to be "happy" he needs to put his W above himself. Under this, between the W and H, I would say this puts her in a more favorable position, especially if they are a taker. Whether right or wrong, this HWHL concept is something some (many?) guys have heard over the years, so fits in well with your conditioning theme.


You know what got me thinking? I guess this speaks to the conditioning question that I raised. I know takers. I was with one for a number of years. So I can see how HWHL could be an example of conditioning that could easily be exploited. Takers will exploit any weakness that they can. But as it relates to conditioning, what is the difference between someone who is wrecked by it and someone who over comes it? 

Let's take you as a small example, if I may presume. Correct me where what I think I know about you is wrong. You were party to a lot of the same conditioning that we all were, including the troublesome man stuff that flummoxes a lot of guys. But you remain above it all. Empathetic through your experiences because you have felt it for yourself (presuming here). What is the difference between you and the wrecked people whose conditioning seems to control them and morph their perspectives?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Let's take you as a small example, if I may presume. Correct me where what I think I know about you is wrong. You were party to a lot of the same conditioning that we all were, including the troublesome man stuff that flummoxes a lot of guys. But you remain above it all. Empathetic through your experiences because you have felt it for yourself (presuming here). What is the difference between you and the wrecked people whose conditioning seems to control them and morph their perspectives?


Hmmm, I know, speaking just about myself, I always try to find the good in people. What I mean by that, a bad experience with one person I don't usually carry over to how I interact with the next person. Also, I am a very independent person and can very easily detach from someone, which I in part won't allow me to become a doormat. I am more of a giver than a taker, but I do have my breaking point where if you want to be an unrelentless taker, I will gladly just move on. Maybe I just need more toxic people in my life


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

My husband pointed out to me last week that my thoughts were stuck in a loop of self-doubt. I didn't even realize it. There are certain life scenarios where my self-doubt increases. I can be bold, take action, be assertive as needed but sometimes afterwards I can overthink and self-doubt creeps in and settles. If that unraveling is followed, it goes to a place where getting comfortable with mistakes is needed... and likely wrapped up in perfectionist tendencies. This goes way back, I don't know how where or why, or if that even matters.

I asked my husband how he learned _not_ to have self-doubt. He shared the ways he approaches personal growth (essentially reading, listening, reflection, action) and said he feels self-doubt can prevent us moving forward and that's not a good place to be. It's more important to keep moving forward, making decisions and, yes, bad decisions / mistakes (typical life stuff) because that can be learned from... but the important thing is to make the decision in the first place with the constant of being good with yourself, and forgiving yourself when needed too. 

That's something I'm working on.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> This post reminds me of the story about the woman who was cooking a roast for supper one night. Her husband was watching and asked her why she cut the end off of it. She said because that's the way her mom taught her. Next time he saw her mom he asked her what the reason for this was, and the mom replied that it was because her roaster was very small so she had to cut the end off the roast so it would fit in it :rofl::rofl:


No, you have the story all wrong. It was a ham!


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I was raised in a blue collar family in a rural area of the U.S. While we all grow and make our own paths, and we do poke a little fun at a few things grndma and grandpa believed, I am overall proud of how i was raised and i would say that many of my adult beliefs are based on how i was raised, and i am proud of that.

I came from a drama free family, and was probably raised in a manner that some would call old fashioned. Now that I am an adult and able to make my own path, I can't think of any other raising that i would rather have had or one that would have made me a better person.


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