# lawyer in a divorce case



## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

i wish i had found this site months ago.

on june 28th she came home from work, said "there's somebody else", and walked out the door. i had seen dots but didn't connect them because they were mostly explicable but more because she was my wife, and i trusted her. so it's not quite as sudden as it sounds, but it is pretty much.

her lawyer sent a letter, but they hadn't filed anything, it was only to say they had been retained. so i got a lawyer asap and filed and now have venue in my county (we technically have different domiciles). so far so good, but we filed only because i pushed it. and, because i was prudent and she was a spender, i have alot of money to lose (6 figures) and the lawyer has seemed less than intense about fighting over this. not blase, but less than intense. 

i now have an appt for a second opinion with another lawyer who has more experience and excellent ratings. but the first came highly recommended too. so - can anyone speak to this? it is wise to switch lawyers? it's august and the low season legally and there have been no negotiations at all yet. i very badly wish i wasn't in a divorce but reconciliation has been quashed so it's on.

my mental health was in question in july, but now i'm just fkng furious.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

You can change lawyers if needed.... you need to trust and feel good about your attorney. Befor you change attorneys I would go meet with your attorney and talk to him how you feel see if he wilk be nore aggressive work with if not...get a new one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

"joe" said:


> i wish i had found this site months ago.
> 
> on june 28th she came home from work, said "there's somebody else", and walked out the door. i had seen dots but didn't connect them because they were mostly explicable but more because she was my wife, and i trusted her. so it's not quite as sudden as it sounds, but it is pretty much.
> 
> ...


Dear "joe,"

Not sure what you mean by "less than intense." If you mean slow to act or non-responsive, then definitely consider switching lawyers. If you mean something else, please explain.

No harm in getting a second opinion. Tell him/her what you expect in a lawyer (you should also have this discussion with you current lawyer if you decide to continue using him/her). But understand that, in most jurisdictions, there is little that a lawyer can do to change dramatically the outcome of a divorce since property division, support and custody are up to the court and handled more-or-less formulaically.

Lawyers are just like everybody else, only more so. Most are overworked and overstressed. Many are procrastinators. Some are just plain lazy. The only way to deal with this is to stay on top of things, communicate regularly, and let your lawyer know immediately if you aren't satisfied. Don't be embarrassed to ask questions if you don't understand why he/she is or isn't doing something.

It's your interest that your lawyer is supposed to be protecting so be as involved as you feel you need to be and don't be afraid to push. Many lawyers operate according to the maxim that "the squeaky wheel gets the most grease."

Good luck.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Is your state a not fault state? Or can you file based on adultery?

Do you have any evidence of her cheating?


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Is your state a not fault state? Or can you file based on adultery?
> 
> Do you have any evidence of her cheating?


it's a no fault state. i wanted to file on adultery, she came right out and said she was leaving for someone else, but the lawyer said it would make no difference in property division and would be very hard to prove, so i filed on 'breakdown.'


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It's not hard to prove if she admits it. When you get a second opinion, ask that lawyer about how adultery affects a divorce. It often differs judge by judge.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

carmen ohio said:


> But understand that, in most jurisdictions, there is little that a lawyer can do to change dramatically the outcome of a divorce since property division, support and custody are up to the court and handled more-or-less formulaically.


right, i wondered about that. in her favor i'm guessing that she's moving by half-inches because that's the most 'amicable' way to proceed and better in the long run.

there's no custody and our incomes are similar, but she was more than a spender, early on she was a squanderer, and i may want to get a forensic accountant to recoup some of our marital income. but i was the one who thought of that, not the lawyer, which is the sort of thing i'm talking about.



carmen ohio said:


> Good luck.


thanks, this is all against my wishes and the whole process looks to be a nightmare.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> It's not hard to prove if she admits it.


in NYS the _other_ party has to admit it. i was strongly discouraged ftom pursuing it, which was hard to hear as i would very much like her to be branded an adulterer legally.


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## juliaabna (Aug 18, 2013)

you need to trust and feel good about your attorney.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

I might be mistaken, but I thought New York was one of the states where infidelity can make a difference in a D.

Am I wrong on this?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

If she likes to spend, get a forensic accountant and see if you can recover the money she has spent on the OM - gifts, trips, hotels, etc. I could add up to a lot of $$$ especially if its gone on a long time.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Here is the question: will you spend more on a forensic accountant than you will recover in the divorce?

Not sure how much she spent on gifts etc. Generally, the man pays.

If you are dissatisfied, get new representation, though you might want a word with the original lawyer to get her motivated.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> I might be mistaken, but I thought New York was one of the states where infidelity can make a difference in a D.
> 
> Am I wrong on this?


i'd really like you to be right. i'll have to look very closely again.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

JCD said:


> Here is the question: will you spend more on a forensic accountant than you will recover in the divorce?


almost certainly. i think there could be 3x more in wastage than the forensic acct would cost.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Who is her new lover ? Is he married ?


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

the other party isn't married and seems to have cooperated fully in the idea.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

You need to be sure that she was spending the money on someone outside of the marriage, as I find it hard to believe that yoyo would be able to recoup just frivolous spending. In most states the income, unless maintained in separate accounts, is considered joint and available equally to all. If she was spending it on herself, furniture, etc that you felt wasn't necessary but had the same availability to funds as she did just didn't like her excess spending, then more than likely it would be considered justifiable un reclaimable spending. Now if she were using joint funds to finance a separate life, then that is another thing and should be able to be recouped.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> You need to be sure that she was spending the money on someone outside of the marriage, as I find it hard to believe that yoyo would be able to recoup just frivolous spending. In most states the income, unless maintained in separate accounts, is considered joint and available equally to all. If she was spending it on herself, furniture, etc that you felt wasn't necessary but had the same availability to funds as she did just didn't like her excess spending, then more than likely it would be considered justifiable un reclaimable spending. Now if she were using joint funds to finance a separate life, then that is another thing and should be able to be recouped.


we had little in the way of joint funds, b/c i saw a problem immediately and wouldn't mix our funds. however in NYS everything each of us earned during the marriage, even in separate accounts, is marital property, i have now learned, and is in the pot for the settlement. the mystery is what she spent it on. i have to guess internet gambling; that's a guess but it would match her psychological profile. i know from things that slipped out that maybe tens of thousands went, and no combination of alcohol and spending equals that much. at the end she was spending on someone else but that won't amount to much and it's not what i'm after.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

"joe", if you are living in the same community as your lawyer you might consider if your wife has been cheating with him. It happens. Believe me, I know.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

"joe" said:


> almost certainly. i think there could be 3x more in wastage than the forensic acct would cost.


Unless she was anticipating a divorce well in advance and trying to conceal her spending from the court, it's unlikely that it'll take a forensic accountant to get a sense of what the money was blown on. My stbxw acquired and maxed out five credit cards without my knowledge, but had to provide all of the statements showing what the charges were for. Same for her check registers/logs for any bank accounts. There's likely plenty to be learned on your own through the normal "discovery" process without paying an expert.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Unless she was anticipating a divorce well in advance and trying to conceal her spending from the court, it's unlikely that it'll take a forensic accountant to get a sense of what the money was blown on. My stbxw acquired and maxed out five credit cards without my knowledge, but had to provide all of the statements showing what the charges were for. Same for her check registers/logs for any bank accounts. There's likely plenty to be learned on your own through the normal "discovery" process without paying an expert.


thanks BC. i'll ask the attorney about that.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I guess I don't understand something here or am mistaken/ missing something, but if it is considered joint property and spent in the past (we are talking years ago and not recent changes), I don't see how it can be expected that spending was to be equal and if one spouse spent more and gets a larger slice of the pie the other should be compensated in divorce? If one racked up large amounts of debt in the other's name without consent or knowledge, that seems to be a different issue, but if excess spending that doesn't result in debt takes place I don't see how one can be compensated for such things or expected to be for that matter?


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> ...but if excess spending that doesn't result in debt takes place I don't see how one can be compensated for such things or expected to be for that matter?


Many states recognize some sort of "financial misconduct" as something to consider in the division of assets/debts, though the definition of what constitutes misconduct probably varies. But if the spending doesn't provide any marital benefit (gambling losses, etc.), then there's a case to be made.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

"joe" said:


> in NYS the _other_ party has to admit it. i was strongly discouraged ftom pursuing it, which was hard to hear as i would very much like her to be branded an adulterer legally.


In NYS it is not enough for her to admit infidelity, 3rd party verification is required. As in A P.I.. Now that NYS is a no fault state it is hardly worth it. NYS is also a equitable distribution state ( not 50 - 50 like Cali) and from what I understand adultery has no bearing on division of assets. 

Go no fault , she agrees. Divorce finalizes, post the two of them on cheaterville and then never ever speak to her gain.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

BlueCalcite said:


> Many states recognize some sort of "financial misconduct" as something to consider in the division of assets/debts, though the definition of what constitutes misconduct probably varies. But if the spending doesn't provide any marital benefit (gambling losses, etc.), then there's a case to be made.


 Thanks for the clarification. I guess I never considered that as an avenue to pursue. I am not sure how things are going to play out for the future with me, but have recently found out that my WW was always getting "extra" money when she went to the store. Cash back never showed in the bank account and I just never thought a thing about it when I saw grocery store payments. Come to find out she had been skimming off the account for our entire marriage and has admitted to it. I need to keep this in mind when I talk to my attorney as he never mentioned this to me. It might be something to look at as she has been doing it for over 14 years without my knowledge and a rough estimate put it into the thousands that she has squandered in this way. Hmmm....food for thought.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

"joe" said:


> we had little in the way of joint funds, b/c i saw a problem immediately and wouldn't mix our funds. however in NYS everything each of us earned during the marriage, even in separate accounts, is marital property, i have now learned, and is in the pot for the settlement. the mystery is what she spent it on. i have to guess internet gambling; that's a guess but it would match her psychological profile. i know from things that slipped out that maybe tens of thousands went, and no combination of alcohol and spending equals that much. at the end she was spending on someone else but that won't amount to much and it's not what i'm after.


If she spent money on the affair it comes out of her equity in the divorce. If she hid money she has to explain under oath where that money went. Either way if she cannot or will not explain judge has to rule in your favor. Go hard on this one. If your attorney is soft on this go find a pit bull attorney who uses experienced forensic accountants to peel away her spending habits from the darkness. When the sun shines hard you see it all..


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

"Joe", My gut says that your attorney knows how fruitless some of the motions that people attempt in divorce court actually are and is just trying to save you the time, hastle and money. Which is actually a good attribute in an attorney. I think the problem you're running into is your attorney is making that conclusion without discussing it with you. I would get a second opinion, but I'd also have a very blunt conversation with your existing lawyer. Keep in mind, some lawyers work to get the best outcome for their clients, some work to get the biggest payment from their clients. You could go seek out a second opinion, be told a lot of things that feed your need for vengeance, increase the billable hours, but in the end don't yield and true positive outcomes. So there's trouble with both sides of the fence.

I'm guessing on the following, but having gone through a divorce with an attorney who was VERY communicative about the where's why's and how's, the money that was spent during the marriage, if earned during the marriage, is joint and equal ownership. She could spend 100% and you save 100% and it's still 50/50. I'm sure there are some very rare cases where something can be done, but it will be hard and expensive and even then, maybe only like a 10% chance.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> In NYS it is not enough for her to admit infidelity, 3rd party verification is required.


correct.



Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> As in A P.I.. Now that NYS is a no fault state it is hardly worth it. NYS is also a equitable distribution state ( not 50 - 50 like Cali)


ah! i had vaguely understood that 'equitable' started at 50/50 (i know that 'equitable =/= 'equal' perhaps that's where it starts). another thing the lawyer has been vague about.



Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> and from what I understand adultery has no bearing on division of assets.


again correct.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> "Joe", My gut says that your attorney knows how fruitless some of the motions that people attempt in divorce court actually are and is just trying to save you the time, hastle and money. Which is actually a good attribute in an attorney. I think the problem you're running into is your attorney is making that conclusion without discussing it with you. I would get a second opinion, but I'd also have a very blunt conversation with your existing lawyer.


that's good, thanks.
she was quietly firm about not going the adultery route. as she said "judges hear these stories every day," and she's surely right.



Dad&Hubby said:


> She could spend 100% and you save 100% and it's still 50/50.


i'm preparing for that (tho' see BinB's post) and trusting to the attorney to do the negotiating well. i was being frugal for a bigger house etc. on the assumption that we were in it for life.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

"joe" said:


> correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In NYS equitable implies you get out roughly what you put into the marriage. Also, both parties are expected to exit the marriage with approximately the same standard of living "for a period of time" if possible. Except for very long marriages alimony does not go forever. If you and your STBXW both earned roughly the same money the duration of the marriage and contributed equally into the marriage the assets and debts will be split basically 50-50. 

As far as chasing after affair costs, hidden gambling and hiding assets (if true) a good attorney can sum that up in 15 minutes whether it is worth it or not based on your income, her income, length of marriage and your present assets. Good attorneys chase assets all the time. Pretty routine.


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## BlueCalcite (Jul 15, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> ...but have recently found out that my WW was always getting "extra" money when she went to the store. Cash back never showed in the bank account and I just never thought a thing about it when I saw grocery store payments. Come to find out she had been skimming off the account for our entire marriage and has admitted to it.


My stbxw had her own system to accomplish the same thing. Our finances were 100% separate except she was an authorized user on my credit card. When she went out of town to speak at or attend conferences for work, she almost without exception charged her hotels and meals on my card. But she always shared the room with one or more friends of hers and was paid cash by her friends for their share of the room/meals. Only one time did I think to bring this up with her, and she immediately wrote me a check. The rest of the times she just pocketed the cash. Looking through my credit card statements in detail after she left, it's apparent that she was also volunteering to pay for pizza and other office lunches on my card, unless she was spending $40-$50 just on herself. I was able to find those same expenses written off of her taxes as business expenses (probably citing that they were lunch meetings). Thinking about it now -- I bet she was getting reimbursed by her boss and/or coworkers in cash AND writing off the expense.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Joe,

My two cents...

You are furious and upset so let me give you some sound advice. Your lawyer who says don't bother with adultery is right... Don't bother with it. It will make you seem angry and bitter an dwon't win you any favors. You can allude to it but let cooler heads rule your thoughts.

If you make more money than her, prepare to get your balls handed to you. 

This is not going to be about being right, having justice etc... This is about getting out of the marriage to a cheating conniving woman who has been fvcking another man while you pay for it.

You will have your assets divided evenly. It's not your 401k. It Your(plural) 401k. Your wife will take you to the cleaners and want every penny you can find. This is the price you have to pay for being such an evil BAST**D that she had to go cheat on you because you made her life miserable!

Now that you know what you are up against. It is business now. It's more than likely going to be 50-50 no matter if you made 100% of it. Find where she hides her assets and be smart on what she knows about yours.

It sucks. I've been divorced for some time. I have three boys that live with me primarily. I make 6 figures but I still sleep on the floor.

It is a new beginning. This is not a battle you will win. Divorce is a lose lose situation and you need to just minimize your losses. When it came to alimony for me I was adamant to say no on principal but my lawyer said the judge would make me pay anyway so I listened to my lawyer. This is a game to them. It's how they get paid. Offer something fair, don't drag it out, do a lot of the work yourself and prepare to lose half. Don't giver her 51% though.

I am sorry you are here brother. There is no good way to go about it. She will take you for every penny so give as few to her and to your lawyer as possible.

I wish I had rosy flowers, puppies and unicorns but I don't. I am sorry you are here brother. I wish you well. Step back now and look at it like business. That is all it is anymore, a business arrangement that went south.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

thanks MA


MovingAhead said:


> If you make more money than her, prepare to get your balls handed to you.


i don't make more (so no alimony), but overall i have more. and actually she might have more in retirement accounts, so i'm anticipating that bit as a wash.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

"joe" said:


> thanks MA
> 
> i don't make more (so no alimony), but overall i have more. and actually she might have more in retirement accounts, so i'm anticipating that bit as a wash.


What did you bring into the marriage? If what you brought in is substantially more than she brought in you leave with it. If you both are about equal at the beginning well forget that then.

Her retirement account is fair game. Many times just the threat of going after the retirement makes the WS back off of trying to grab all of the present equity. Also did you support her through school at all? Did she get a education or certificate related to work on your dime?


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> If what you brought in is substantially more than she brought in you leave with it.


not necessarily. if it was managed in any substantial way it may become marital property. that's another thing i'm not 100% clear on.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

"joe" said:


> not necessarily. if it was managed in any substantial way it may become marital property. that's another thing i'm not 100% clear on.


If you bring in a asset and it gets mixed with the marriage money (example :she remodels the kitchen of a home you bought and paid for prior to marriage) then yes, she gets her portion of remodeling fees back. But only if it was a recent remodel. If the remodel was 10 years ago judge *may [/B say too bad, you enjoyed the kitchen for ten years helping to wear it out. 

Eq distribution with prior assets gets very very complicated. More so if assets get mixed during marriage. Lawyer has to have a sharp accounting head.*


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

"joe" said:


> not necessarily. if it was managed in any substantial way it may become marital property. that's another thing i'm not 100% clear on.


I am curious as to what NYS courts have determined "managed in a substantial way " to be. Sounds like a minefield.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

If you can come to an agreeable split where you take roughly 50% and walk away and minimize the lawyers, that is best. Stay out of court as much as possible and move on.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Eq distribution with prior assets gets very very complicated. More so if assets get mixed during marriage. Lawyer has to have a sharp accounting head.


she's got accts in the office, they do only marriage law so i'm assuming they're up to it. but you're right, things get very complicated. i'm braced for how it can go against me; maybe i should think some of it may go for me if they go far enough into the details.


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