# Insecure and porn makes it worse...



## DirtyHippie

I know a lot of people have hashed out the porn topic before-The advice I'm seeking less about porn and more about personal image, I think...

I understand that men (and women) watch porn. I don't want to ask my fiance to stop watching porn, but I can't help but feel sad, ugly, unwanted, etc. every time I find pictures of girls on the computer and whatnot. The women in those pictures are way prettier than I could ever hope to be, hell, their business is to look good! I'm only 24, so what happens when I'm 50 and saggy/wrinkly? What I am seeking advice on is; How do I cope with my own personal body image insecurities from the inevitable porn my fiance watches?


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## eyuop

I'm in the process of becoming porn free. I'm a guy, married now for 17 years (with 2 kids).

Porn has never been about comparing my wife to someone else. In fact, I think she is prettier than many of the girls in porn (not because she is as "stacked", but she is just not all "siliconed out"). Does your Fiance know you know?

Anyway, men look at porn not to compare people but to vicariously get the rush it offers. Much of the porn I used to watch had women in it way older than my wife and they weren't as fit or good looking. It had more to do with fantasies and seeing the women responding with ectasy to the situation. I know most of it is just fake, but just regular movies are also fake and we watch movies to experience things vicariously through the actors and what they are experiencing.

If I were you, I would have a discussion with you fiance about this. You might as well open up right now before you tie the knot. Also, I would simply work at becoming the best woman you can be. Go for it. You don't have to deck yourself out and emulate all those models dripping with makeup and plastic. But you can do things to spice things up as far as the way you dress, cool things you can do with your hair, etc. I'll give you a hint: guys love when girls do cool things with their hair (like cool braids, hair clips, etc.). If you have short hair, I would recommend growing it out and doing something gorgeous with it (this is simply because hands down men perfer this -- there are some who like short hair and go crazy over that, too -- but they are the 10% -- make sure he isn't in the 10% first ).
Oh, and get some really cool clothes. 

If weight is an issue, tackle that one, too. Move toward becoming a more healthy, fit you. All these things will booste your confidence.


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## Faithful Wife

I'd say find a new fiance, because you won't likely be able to really feel comfortable with this, and he isn't likely to change. Just accept that he gets to be how he is, and you get to be how you are, nothing wrong with either of you. But not everyone is the right fit together and something like this can destroy a relationship so why go into it knowing it may end up being destroyed?

You can find a partner who has different habits and he can find a partner who doesn't care about porn.


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## Faithful Wife

"this is simply because hands down men perfer this"



It is actually very common that "a man" thinks "all men" prefer something just because that one man does. 

Just sayin'. People's tastes are more varied than what "a man" prefers.


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## Maricha75

Have you had a discussion with him about this? I don't mean the "stop watching or else!" talk. I mean sit down and discuss how you feel, why he watches it, and how to work though this together? You said you don't want to ask him to stop. That's perfectly fine. But you should, if you haven't already, talk with him about this subject. Otherwise, you will be on here, again (or still?), asking for advice on how to get him to stop. If you don't discuss it, and come up with some sort of workable compromise, it will likely lead to resentment on both sides. That's the first step...sit down and discuss it.


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## keepsmiling

The short answer is: you need self belief.
It's like gold dust, but even more special. I have been a wreck in the past about porn (I'm 23), and it took about 6 months of trying really hard to just 'not be bothered' before I realised what I really needed was to wake up and appreciate how awesome I am. I mean it! It might sound like you're telling yourself lies but truly, every one of us has something unique and wonderful about them, think about your strengths, achievements, times when you made someone laugh, times when you pulled other guys... you've got it, now learn to love what you have. This is not a quick fix, but in time, you will feel so secure in yourself that porn (or any random pretty girl, for that matter) won't affect you. You will feel secure in yourself, and the relationship, and no picture can touch that.

Of course, this is a continuing journey, just like a marriage, so don't lose yourself, treasure who you are and be good to yourself - that means being healthy, and enjoying your life!

Best wishes


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## Anon Pink

How does you man stack up to the porn kings? is he as big? Is he as good looking...although that is so subjective cause I've only seen a handful of good looking men in porn, usually they are just well built with big willies.

The point is, you may think you don't measure up to what he's looking at, but chances are very good that you are probably head and shoulders better than a woman on the screen. Your fiancé is probably much more attractive than the porn kings, at least to you right? Would you trade your man for one of the porn kings? Hell No!

Thhink about that before you let your insecurities run away from you.

Also, you man does need to tone it down. Not appropriate to have a massive amount of pics as an attached man. Time for you to start adding to his collection... With pics of YOU!


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## Callmecrazy

I'm okay with my H viewing porn, as long as it's in moderation and I'm not being neglected. (Which has been an issue before). I don't understand why so many women comment about women in porn being beautiful. Sure some of them are attractive, but the majority of them are just plain trashy looking! Especially, when you consider how they make a living. Don't feel insecure about your body whatsoever. Embrace your sexiness, even if its not the perfect 36 x 24 x 36!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos

DirtyHippie said:


> I know a lot of people have hashed out the porn topic before-The advice I'm seeking less about porn and more about personal image, I think...
> 
> I understand that men (and women) watch porn. I don't want to ask my fiance to stop watching porn, but I can't help but feel sad, ugly, unwanted, etc. every time I find pictures of girls on the computer and whatnot. The women in those pictures are way prettier than I could ever hope to be, hell, their business is to look good! I'm only 24, so what happens when I'm 50 and saggy/wrinkly? What I am seeking advice on is; How do I cope with my own personal body image insecurities from the inevitable porn my fiance watches?


Are you generally an insecure person who feels sad, ugly and unwanted etc, or has this only happened since you discovered your fiance watches porn? If it is the latter, you might want to reconsider your relationship because, from what I gather, many women feel exactly the same as you do on this topic.

Although most people have viewed porn at some stage in their lives, not all people in relationships watch porn or choose to have it in their relationships - myself included.


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## johnnycomelately

Try not to focus on how you look and remember when you are saggy and 50 he will probably have a beer belly and hair sprouting out of his ears. 

I have never lost my attraction for my wife and she is 42 and has had two kids. I have watched porn the whole time we have been married.

There is no way that you can objectively judge your sex appeal. You don't see the whole package, tend to focus on the flaws and you are completely unable to understand your own sexual presence. We have all met beautiful people with the sex appeal of road kill and ugly/fat/weird looking people who get your motor running. Sex appeal comes with confidence and confidence comes with accepting your flaws and moving past them.


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## badcompany

You need to talk it over with your fiancé and see why. I personally can't stand the fake moaning, gum chewing, trashy stuff found in most porn. Once in awhile you'll find a good clip where the woman is red cheeked and can't keep her fingers out of herself while she is servicing the man and it's pretty hot because she's genuinely into it.
For me, viewing such clips or even reading some erotica slides the stresses of work and life into the back of my mind and gets me in a better mindset so I am ready to jump my wife. 
Even better...join him. Have a seat in his lap and check it out with him...it won't take long until the computer will get put into sleep mode and you'll be getting busy


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## tacoma

Regardless of you your man should try to keep the porn use a little more on the down low.

No telling who might get a hold of his devices.

Just ask him if it's too much not to have to look at porn every time you search a URL.

Chrome has a nice incognito mode.


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## waiwera

tacoma said:


> Regardless of you your man should try to keep the porn use a little more on the down low.
> 
> No telling who might get a hold of his devices.
> 
> Just ask him if it's too much not to have to look at porn every time you search a URL.
> 
> Chrome has a nice incognito mode.



tacoma - how is becoming secretive and sneaky going to improve this situation. IMO is make things much worse and her far more insecure.

The OP and her man need to decide if this is a deal breaker or not... it sounds like it isn't so they need to workout how to deal with it so it doesn't damage their relationship. 

Becoming secretive is never the answer to anything in a marriage , openness and honesty is the only way to go... IMO.


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## tacoma

waiwera said:


> tacoma - how is becoming secretive and sneaky going to improve this situation. IMO is make things much worse and her far more insecure.


Read for context.
I never suggested he be secretive or sneaky.
Would be moot at this point to suggest such a thing .....She already knows!!!

I don't "hide" porn from my wife and she's well aware I indulge.
She never logs onto any of my devices and sees porn, my kid uses my stuff.
In this society everyone's sex life is on the down low to one extent or another for tons of valid reasons.

The OP wasn't even considering the possibility that this was a deal breaker.
She wanted to know how to deal with her insecurity about it.
Her man being more sensitive to her insecurity would be a long way towards alleviating that insecurity.



> The OP and her man need to decide if this is a deal breaker or not... it sounds like it isn't so they need to workout how to deal with it so it doesn't damage their relationship.


Yeah, I've been following along.
I just gave her one pretty effective course of action to keep this from damaging their relationship.



> Becoming secretive is never the answer to anything in a marriage , openness and honesty is the only way to go... IMO.


You grossly misrepresent the actual words I typed.
Please go reread them.


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## waiwera

incognito and private browsing is used to hide what you've been doing. You're suggesting he do this.
In my world hiding stuff from each other is dishonest. Simple.

How will this help their marriage/relationship?
You say it will...I'm not sure how.

There is no mention of children seeing his porn and using his devices... lets not assume there is.


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## TCSRedhead

So, is the rest of the relationship (including sex and frequency) good? 

If it is and you're ok with the porn itself, then it's a matter of working on your self esteem.

I'm 40 years old. I have two daughters in college and a 10 month old baby so I have stretch marks and my body isn't what it was 20 years ago. That hurts me when I look in the mirror and compare to what I see on t.v. or movies.

Then, I watch my husband when I undress and it's sheer lust, want and desire. He doesn't see these flaws that I see. He sees me as his partner and thinks my body is gorgeous just as it is. 

See yourself through your husband's eyes. You're more beautiful than those women will ever be because your HIS.


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## darby777

You need to ask yourself is this something you can live with
If not, move on :scratchhead:


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## IseeU

I can understand why your worried
but at least you talk about it
My h lies about it and says he doesn't when i know he does
My h loves porn and i think he loves it more than me
We stopped having sex a while ago because hes not attracted to me anymore.
He says he loves me but doesn't love my body anymore
I think he wants me to look like the porn girls


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## tacoma

waiwera said:


> incognito and private browsing is used to hide what you've been doing. You're suggesting he do this.
> In my world hiding stuff from each other is dishonest. Simple.


Again you choose to ignore my actual words and misrepresent what I' s actually said.
I have said nothing about hiding anything from her... Not once.

What I have said is for him to be more discreet with the porn so it's not always in her face like she describes.
Discretion with this media is a good thing in our culture for many other reasons beyond his wife.



> How will this help their marriage/relationship?
> You say it will...I'm not sure how.


It will give her the opportunity to discuss it with him without having him feel as if she's trying to control him.
It will allow her to let him know she has some insecurities about it and if he cares for her at all it will guve him the oppprtunity to help get her past it.



> There is no mention of children seeing his porn and using his devices... lets not assume there is.


I never did assume such a thing nor did I imply it
I was describing other potential reason for discretion concerning his porn habit.

You go ahead and keep twisting my words to appear to mean what you desire though.
Feel free
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waiwera

Oh for goodness sake tacoma are you this rude and dismissive of everyone who disagrees with you.

End of conversation.


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## eyuop

Faithful Wife said:


> "this is simply because hands down men perfer this"
> 
> 
> 
> It is actually very common that "a man" thinks "all men" prefer something just because that one man does.
> 
> Just sayin'. People's tastes are more varied than what "a man" prefers.


I agree with you to a point, and that's why I left a small percentage out. I've looked at many polls on this one. To prove my point, do an experiment. In Google Images type this: "most beautiful women in the world". How many of them have short hair? Hmmm...

Also: Do guys like short hair on women ... or

I'm not against short hair on women, and it looks great on many women. But chances are you aren't going to turn as many heads with it, that's all I'm saying. Sorry for the distraction... carry on...


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## Faithful Wife

eyoup....what Google considers "the most beautiful women in the world" only means "which white American movie stars are photographed the most". 

I get your point and understand it, though.


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## somethingelse

Just remember that real women with real lives are what most men desire. Not porn stars. If your man had the choice to be with one of those women or you....he would choose you. Why? Because those women are not relationship material, they aren't even attractive purely just because of their profession. They may look like every man's "dream"...but honestly, lots of them have fake everything. What's good about that? And the ones that aren't fake...well...they're still porn stars.


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## Wiserforit

DirtyHippie said:


> I know a lot of people have hashed out the porn topic before-The advice I'm seeking less about porn and more about personal image, I think...
> 
> I understand that men (and women) watch porn. I don't want to ask my fiance to stop watching porn, but I can't help but feel sad, ugly, unwanted, etc. every time I find pictures of girls on the computer and whatnot. The women in those pictures are way prettier than I could ever hope to be, hell, their business is to look good! I'm only 24, so what happens when I'm 50 and saggy/wrinkly? What I am seeking advice on is; How do I cope with my own personal body image insecurities from the inevitable porn my fiance watches?


If your avatar is your picture then you are a very pretty thing indeed, and I have advice.

I'm 54, my wife is 24. She was 19 when we married and just scorching hot, but I was her first boyfriend and she was super jealous. I had expectations of no porn and being extremely careful about her feelings and to my surprise things have worked out very differently.

As long as she is in control, she has no jealousy. It started with her picking nude internet chat girls for me. I thought it was stupid, and nothing I had ever done before. But she wanted me to watch, and for her to watch me interact with them. So I did.

She picked porn for us to watch together, and she knows exactly what I like. Carbon copies of her, or as close as we can get. Next she took me to strip clubs and paid strippers to do lap dances, but I cut that off on account of being such a huge waste of money. 

She makes the decisions on my porn use, and she checks my internet history so I don't do anything without her permission. She will occasionally get a bolt of jealousy and come in to my office, accuse me, and look at my history. It's pretty weird but I validate her feelings every time. Your feelings are valid honey, you have a right to feel the way you do. It is understandable. Of course you feel that way. Nobody but you, honey...

She'll let me have hall passes but I have never used one. I just don't feel like it. But looking back five years ago it is pretty amazing that this jealous girl not only tolerates porn and strippers, but even screwing another girl if I felt like it. 

Way back in the beginning I gave her full access to email, cell phone, etc. and boy was she a relentless snooper. She accused me wrongly a few times over very stupid stuff but learned her lesson that I was always true. 

She told me while she was doing all of this internet chat and porn with me that she was building up resistance. And a few times she actually did blow her stack. I'm talking to some internet stripper, who my wife has picked out for me, and she walks in the room saying she is leaving me. I am not kidding. It was hard on me of course because she had just put this girl in front of me, paid for it with her own credit card, and now blaming me for it! I thought it was a dirty trick.

But no, when I protested she went from insanely jealous to bursting out laughing because yes, it was all her doing. 

Were I to do anything behind her back, she would be really angry at me. She would get over it but things are working out so well with her being in control of everything - why should I jeapordize it?


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## FormerSelf

I think porn is one of those things where there is such a spectrum of opinions...its hard to know where to line it up....which is why IT IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT that you know where YOUR true north is. If you don't want porn in your family...then set that boundary...discussion over. Regardless of how benign or harmless it seems to others...the fact that it is doing you harm is worth communicating to your spouse about. If you take the time to explain what it triggers inside you, then it gives him a chance to understand and act accordingly. If it isn't something that he isn't willing to give up because he would rather ignore the pain that it is causing you so he can service his selfishness...then that probably will say a lot about your future. Who wants to be strapped in the seat next to a person whose method of driving freaks you the hell out? Same with porn...the law of love should apply...not rationalizing or justifying its use in spite of some negative effects. Heck, you may feel differently later...but right now...it is not cool for you. That should be respected, I feel.
Porn was a no-no early in my marriage...and later my wife and I seemed to relax about it a bit...to spice it up...but honestly it is not a very good example of intimacy building...especially when it seems many scenes are of an antagonistic nature...pretty fake and soulless...and I can see how its powerful imagery can warp people into thinking how sex needs to reflect the porn stars' attitudes and wanton energy...building dissatisfaction if your partner isn't doing what Debbie does in Dallas. These folks are sexual mutants...overlarge everything...all for maximizing thrills and profits...not made for marital bliss.


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## Theseus

What if your fiance was hurt and insecure how he measures up to the men in romance novels or movies you watch? What would you tell him?

I posted this in another thread, and it applies here.

You can do three things:

1. As some others here suggested, you can leave him, and find one of the very few non-asexual men who don't look at porn (if they exist).

2. Forbid him to look at porn, act like his mother, which makes you less attractive to him, and so he will look at porn even more, in an ever-increasing cycle.

3. Figure out that porn is not real, it's entertainment, and you can actually choose not to take it personally, because it isn't about you.


From your question it sounds like neither #1 or #2 would make you happy, so try #3. You have nothing to lose.


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## *LittleDeer*

I have posted links before on this forum, to a study that shows women whos partners watch porn are more likely to be critical of themselves, and have a worse body image, these couples are also likely to have an adversely effected sex life etc then those whos partners watch much less or no porn. 

Personally I would say it should make women feel uncomfortable. Never before has the average man had at his finger tips the ability to watch thousands of naked women doing alot of things that most women just can't do. (Shooting those scenes takes time and is reportedly often painful). It sets unrealistic standards and I think can threaten relationships, because a lot of men do choose porn over connecting sexually with their spouse. 

I think a secure woman will tell her partner, she's not fine with it. An insecure woman will put up with it even if she's hurting for fear he will reject her/ leave and so on.

I hope you don't put up with something that hurts you to placate your man.


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## *LittleDeer*

Theseus said:


> What if your fiance was hurt and insecure how he measures up to the men in romance novels or movies you watch? What would you tell him?
> 
> I posted this in another thread, and it applies here.
> 
> You can do three things:
> 
> 1. As some others here suggested, you can leave him, and find one of the very few non-asexual men who don't look at porn (if they exist).
> 
> 2. Forbid him to look at porn, act like his mother, which makes you less attractive to him, and so he will look at porn even more, in an ever-increasing cycle.
> 
> 3. Figure out that porn is not real, it's entertainment, and you can actually choose not to take it personally, because it isn't about you.
> 
> 
> From your question it sounds like neither #1 or #2 would make you happy, so try #3. You have nothing to lose.


Not many men are hurt by their partner watching movies and reading books, and if they are, they should certainly speak up. Especially if he felt he was being replaced sexually and she was masturbating over movies etc..

You are very dismissive of peoples pain. It's not just entertainment if it hurts your relationship.


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## johnnycomelately

waiwera said:


> incognito and private browsing is used to hide what you've been doing. You're suggesting he do this.
> In my world hiding stuff from each other is dishonest. Simple.
> 
> How will this help their marriage/relationship?
> You say it will...I'm not sure how.


I don't think that hiding stuff is necessarily bad. We all hide our masturbation habits, our bowel movements are done in private, we pick our noses only when we are alone etc. Sometimes hiding something is just a matter of consideration and social convention. 

I don't think my marriage would be helped much if I masturbated in front of my wife while she was watching TV.


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## eves

Unfortunately I tend to watch a lot porn. I say unfortunately because I would very very much prefer to be intimate with my wife (she 39 and me 40) but since she is choosing for us to be in a sexless (nearly) marriage I like to get some stimulation from somewhere. I am not suggesting the OP and her fiance is in the same boat as my wife and I. I just want to mention where my experience on this subject is.

When I do watch porn I spend my time thinking about my wife and how I'd rather be with her. I will admit that there are women out in porn that have all the things I find attractive but my wife still drives me extremely crazy. 

For me....watching porn is just something to help me out in between when my wife lets me touch her.


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## johnnycomelately

*LittleDeer* said:


> I think a secure woman will tell her partner, she's not fine with it. An insecure woman will put up with it even if she's hurting for fear he will reject her/ leave and so on.


That's a false dichotomy. There are secure women who approve of porn. You project your own distaste for porn onto all women.


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## Theseus

*LittleDeer* said:


> You are very dismissive of peoples pain. It's not just entertainment if it hurts your relationship.


The OP claims she isn't opposed to porn the same way you are. When people are upset over something that has nothing to do with them, it's impossible not to be a little dismissive.


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## johnnycomelately

*LittleDeer* said:


> You are very dismissive of peoples pain. It's not just entertainment if it hurts your relationship.


The OP said it was her insecurities causing the pain, she should deal with her insecurities and not obsess about her partner's normal behaviour. At her age the chances of her finding a partner not into porn are remote.


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## trey69

DirtyHippie said:


> How do I cope with my own personal body image insecurities from the inevitable porn my fiance watches?


Therapy maybe, and learning to accept and love yourself for who you are.


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## tacoma

waiwera said:


> Oh for goodness sake tacoma are you this rude and dismissive of everyone who disagrees with you.
> 
> End of conversation.


Nope, only those that intentionally misrepresent my words to make a point I disagree with.

Try the ignore feature.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

*LittleDeer* said:


> I have posted links before on this forum, to a study that shows women whos partners watch porn are more likely to be critical of themselves, and have a worse body image, these couples are also likely to have an adversely effected sex life etc then those whos partners watch much less or no porn.


That's interesting I wonder where they got the control group to objectively research this study considering the only men I've ever heard of that don't watch porn are the husbands of TAM wives.

So what you're saying is that the vast majority of women are insecure.

Not buying it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScarletBegonias

Since you don't have an issue with porn itself but only have a self esteem and confidence issue,I think it would be good for him to be more discreet.It isn't about sneaking it or being deceptive,it's a courtesy so you don't have to look at it.As long as you know it's there,he's not hiding as much as he's making the environment more palatable for you.

As far as fixing your image issues,the main thing that helped me was not being in my twenties anymore  
But others things I did to help it:
-no more glamour/cosmo subscriptions,they are designed to make you want more and make you want to be more than you are.I think wanting more and wanting to be more is a good thing but only when it's coming from within,not because a magazine told you it was right for you.
-no more following celebrity bullsh*t.The more I cut down on my consumption of hollywood "glam" the better I felt about myself and my life.


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## CallaLily

Do you have any hobbies you enjoy doing? Or maybe you could take up a new hobby, something that can help make you feel good and positive about your self. Something you can call your own to make you feel a little more secure within. Then maybe if your husband says something about it, you can tell him you don't appreciate him being insecure about what you're doing.


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## *LittleDeer*

johnnycomelately said:


> That's a false dichotomy. There are secure women who approve of porn. You project your own distaste for porn onto all women.


Funnily enough, I'm secure enough to say how I feel, and to have my own boundaries. There has NEVER been a porn problem in my relationships. 

Weird huh?


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## *LittleDeer*

tacoma said:


> That's interesting I wonder where they got the control group to objectively research this study considering the only men I've ever heard of that don't watch porn are the husbands of TAM wives.
> 
> So what you're saying is that the vast majority of women are insecure.
> 
> Not buying it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol I wonder if you actually read the studies posted on here.

In western society I doubt there is a living adult who hasn't seen porn. I've seen it many times. 

However there are plenty of studies that show some men watch it occasionally and some not at all, for various reasons. 

It doesn't mean the vast majority of women are insecure, however I think many women have a natural negative reaction to porn. 

I think if you can't empathise with the OP, when they are clearly hurting that you should probably bow out, instead of pushing your agenda, which seems to be the same as a lot of cheating spouses. "I'll do what I want, *pout*. They are insecure. *pout*. And so on.


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## sparkyjim

I want to apologize to the ladies for the way us "men" sometimes defend this apparent right to watch porn that so many of us appear to think we have.

The truth is that - if you are in a relationship with someone - their concerns, their feelings, should be more important than any so called "right"

I don't understand this continuing defense of something which has such a negative effect on one side of the relationship. I get that relationships can be tough. I get that each person has to sacrifice some things in a relationship. It's just that porn seems like such a selfishness, particularly when one person's self esteem is affected.

If I went to work, and every day the boss was bringing in interviewees for my job, my self esteem would suffer. That's an extreme analogy, for sure, but the point is that we do not live in a vacuum. What we do affects someone else. 

I honestly think that if every man went to his SO and sincerely asked if she minded him watching porn, and if every SO also answered sincerely, I think there would be an overwhelming response of "I would rather you not watch it."

In the end having a completely intact self esteem should not necessarily lead to an acceptance of porn. That's an assumption that just does not stand.

I think it would be more logical that a woman who works on her self esteem would come to the conclusion that she does not want to have a relationship with a man who disregards how she feels.

She might also come to the conclusion that she does not want to be with a man who watches porn.

And finally, the statistic that all men watch porn, is not accurate, nor is it an excuse for men to watch and for women to accept. Just another assumption that does not stand.


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## johnnycomelately

sparkyjim said:


> I want to apologize to the ladies for the way us "men" sometimes defend this apparent right to watch porn that so many of us appear to think we have.


First off this is not an issue of 'ladies' and men. The 50s ended a while ago now. Women watch porn too. 

I hate to tell you this but all adults do in fact have the right to use pornography.



sparkyjim said:


> The truth is that - if you are in a relationship with someone - their concerns, their feelings, should be more important than any so called "right"


So any concerns and feelings should result in the spouse immediately giving up the activity. So if I am concerned and feel hurt that my wife earns more than me, she is obliged to give up work?



sparkyjim said:


> If I went to work, and every day the boss was bringing in interviewees for my job, my self esteem would suffer.


You do understand that you are not actually going to a have a relationship with the woman/man on the screen?



sparkyjim said:


> I honestly think that if every man went to his SO and sincerely asked if she minded him watching porn, and if every SO also answered sincerely, I think there would be an overwhelming response of "I would rather you not watch it."


So like *littledeer* you speak for all women. 30% of WOMEN watch porn. So it would be a little hypocritical of them to object. My wife has absolutely no problem with porn and we watch together occasionally. 


In the end having a completely intact self esteem should not necessarily lead to an acceptance of porn. That's an assumption that just does not stand.



sparkyjim said:


> I think it would be more logical that a woman who works on her self esteem would come to the conclusion that she does not want to have a relationship with a man who disregards how she feels.


Again you assume that all women object to porn. Your attitudes are way out of date. 



sparkyjim said:


> And finally, the statistic that all men watch porn, is not accurate, nor is it an excuse for men to watch and for women to accept. Just another assumption that does not stand.


The current widely accepted stat is 70%. This rises to 90% amongst 18-24s. 

It is normal. It is legal. We (men and women) do have the right to it.


----------



## Cosmos

sparkyjim said:


> I want to apologize to the ladies for the way us "men" sometimes defend this apparent right to watch porn that so many of us appear to think we have.
> 
> The truth is that - if you are in a relationship with someone - their concerns, their feelings, should be more important than any so called "right"
> 
> I don't understand this continuing defense of something which has such a negative effect on one side of the relationship. I get that relationships can be tough. I get that each person has to sacrifice some things in a relationship. It's just that porn seems like such a selfishness, particularly when one person's self esteem is affected.
> 
> If I went to work, and every day the boss was bringing in interviewees for my job, my self esteem would suffer. That's an extreme analogy, for sure, but the point is that we do not live in a vacuum. What we do affects someone else.
> 
> I honestly think that if every man went to his SO and sincerely asked if she minded him watching porn, and if every SO also answered sincerely, I think there would be an overwhelming response of "I would rather you not watch it."
> 
> In the end having a completely intact self esteem should not necessarily lead to an acceptance of porn. That's an assumption that just does not stand.
> 
> I think it would be more logical that a woman who works on her self esteem would come to the conclusion that she does not want to have a relationship with a man who disregards how she feels.
> 
> She might also come to the conclusion that she does not want to be with a man who watches porn.
> 
> And finally, the statistic that all men watch porn, is not accurate, nor is it an excuse for men to watch and for women to accept. Just another assumption that does not stand.


:iagree:

Whilst I believe that the majority of people have viewed porn at some stage in their lives, I don't believe that they continue to regularly do so when they're in relationships.

Porn has never featured in any of my relationships, including my current one.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Whilst I believe that the majority of people have viewed porn at some stage in their lives, I don't believe that they continue to regularly do so when they're in relationships.
> 
> Porn has never featured in any of my relationships, including my current one.


Well, you are wrong about the first statement, there is overwhelming evidence against you. Denial isn't going to help the OP or anyone else.


----------



## sparkyjim

I have found it to be generally useless to argue whether porn is okay or not. And it's not like I live in a vacuum. I used to have a porn problem. But I worked to get rid of it. Still sometimes it is hard to resist jumping back into the argument.




johnnycomelately said:


> First off this is not an issue of 'ladies' and men. The 50s ended a while ago now. Women watch porn too.


You set up your argument by stating that if I do not agree with you then I am old fashioned. In fact I believe this way because I have read the very latest studies about porn. I could not be more in the present.




johnnycomelately said:


> I hate to tell you this but all adults do in fact have the right to use pornography.


You also have the right to stick a pen in your eye. That doesn't mean it's a good thing to do.




johnnycomelately said:


> So any concerns and feelings should result in the spouse immediately giving up the activity. So if I am concerned and feel hurt that my wife earns more than me, she is obliged to give up work?


And now the familiar silly argument....





johnnycomelately said:


> You do understand that you are not actually going to a have a relationship with the woman/man on the screen?


I understand that you are going to masturbate and deplete your sexual energy. A lot of posters have stated how porn takes their husband's interest in a healthy sex life away. Quite a few men have said that they use porn because they are not happy in the relationship, and porn is easier than working on things.




johnnycomelately said:


> So like *littledeer* you speak for all women. 30% of WOMEN watch porn. So it would be a little hypocritical of them to object. My wife has absolutely no problem with porn and we watch together occasionally.


Thank you for agreeing with me that a MAJORITY of women would object with the use of porn.





johnnycomelately said:


> The current widely accepted stat is 70%. This rises to 90% amongst 18-24s.
> 
> It is normal. It is legal. We (men and women) do have the right to it.


I never said that anyone does not have a right to watch porn. You also have the right to sleep with whoever wants to sleep with you - but NOT if you are in a relationship.

Obesity is also on the rise. Maybe I should be jumping on that wagon. Maybe I should start eating all the junk food that I can.

What you have not cited is that erectile dysfunction is also a growing trend - especially in the 18 - 30 year old range. The very group that you stated watches porn at the rate of 90 %.

And the predominant reason for this dysfunction? Porn...

Here is only one such link. There are many others.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...rn-induced-sexual-dysfunction-growing-problem

But my arguments are futile. And a diversion from helping the original poster.

Any woman who feels that porn is a problem in her relationship also has a right to feel that way. She should never be made to feel that it is a self esteem issue, or that she is old fashioned.

Insecurity may be an internal feeling, but external things affect it. If porn use is one of the things that do affect her then she needs to do whatever she can to eliminate it.

Being in a relationship is about being understanding of each others strengths and weaknesses. It is about building up, not tearing down. It is about making choices for the good of the relationship.


----------



## johnnycomelately

sparkyjim said:


> I have found it to be generally useless to argue whether porn is okay or not. And it's not like I live in a vacuum. I used to have a porn problem. But I worked to get rid of it. Still sometimes it is hard to resist jumping back into the argument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparkyjim said:
> 
> 
> 
> You set up your argument by stating that if I do not agree with you then I am old fashioned. In fact I believe this way because I have read the very latest studies about porn. I could not be more in the present.
> 
> 
> 
> Apologising to the 'ladies' on behalf of us naughty men is presumptuous and old-fashioned. I understand that there are a lot of self-loathing men out there, but I am not one of them so please don't apologise on my behalf. I have nothing to apologise for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparkyjim said:
> 
> 
> 
> You also have the right to stick a pen in your eye. That doesn't mean it's a good thing to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sticking a pen in your eye is dangerous and harmful. Porn is not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparkyjim said:
> 
> 
> 
> And now the familiar silly argument....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your argument was silly, why did you make it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparkyjim said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that you are going to masturbate and deplete your sexual energy. A lot of posters have stated how porn takes their husband's interest in a healthy sex life away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have a very healthy sex life, but thanks for worrying. Are you seriously suggesting that more than half the Western world has an unhealthy sex life? Because their sexual energy has been 'depleted' - just to add a bit of Victorian quack medicine in there. Quite a few men have said that they use porn because they are not happy in the relationship, and porn is easier than working on things.
Click to expand...

Yes, and many men do the same with work, golf, TV, gardening...






sparkyjim said:


> Thank you for agreeing with me that a MAJORITY of women would object with the use of porn.


30% of women use porn. There are many, like my wife, who don't use porn but are mature, confident and open-minded enough not have a prudish disapproval of it.







sparkyjim said:


> I never said that anyone does not have a right to watch porn. You also have the right to sleep with whoever wants to sleep with you - but NOT if you are in a relationship.


Actually I do have the right to watch porn in a relationship. Masturbation is normal and healthy.

Obesity is also on the rise. Maybe I should be jumping on that wagon. Maybe I should start eating all the junk food that I can.



sparkyjim said:


> What you have not cited is that erectile dysfunction is also a growing trend - especially in the 18 - 30 year old range. The very group that you stated watches porn at the rate of 90 %.
> 
> And the predominant reason for this dysfunction? Porn...
> 
> Here is only one such link. There are many others.
> 
> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...rn-induced-sexual-dysfunction-growing-problem


Marnia Robinson is a lawyer who is not qualified to diagnose anything. She makes a fortune, along with her husband who also is not qualified, out of this fallacy. Their material is full of pseudo-science and outright falsehoods. It falls apart on even a cursory glance. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relationships-addiction/70876-critique-your-brain-porn.html



sparkyjim said:


> But my arguments are futile. And a diversion from helping the original poster.


But you made them anyway. Soon you will say that we should stop thread-jacking. This is a classic ploy of someone who has no real substance to back up their assertions and knows it.




sparkyjim said:


> Any woman who feels that porn is a problem in her relationship also has a right to feel that way. She should never be made to feel that it is a self esteem issue, or that she is old fashioned.


The OP herself said it was a self-esteem issue. I never said that. I called you old-fashioned, not her.



sparkyjim said:


> Insecurity may be an internal feeling, but external things affect it. If porn use is one of the things that do affect her then she needs to do whatever she can to eliminate it.


Yes, she should do whatever she can. 



sparkyjim said:


> Being in a relationship is about being understanding of each others strengths and weaknesses. It is about building up, not tearing down. It is about making choices for the good of the relationship.


Trying to control the normal, legal behaviour of your partner is not good for the relationship. Working on her self-esteem is the answer, not damaging his by blaming him for her self-image problem.


----------



## sparkyjim

johnnycomelately said:


> There are many, like my wife, who don't use porn but are mature, confident and open-minded enough not to have a prudish disapproval of it.



Every guy who argues that porn is okay eventually uses the statement that you just used.

Just because you say it is so does not make it so. One can be against the use of porn for other reasons. This should not be the default label for anyone who does not want their husband to use porn. But if it helps you to "label" those who argue against porn then I guess you will continue to do it.

For the record, I would never say that a man or a woman who uses porn is a pervert. I would never put someone into that default position.

And you can call me old fashioned if you want. That doesn't mean that you are right.



As to the research - 

Can Porn Cause Erectile Dysfunction? Pt 1 | The Dr. Oz Show

Is Dr. Oz also unqualified? Are you qualified to determine that he is unqualified?


It really doesn't matter to me anymore. I keep seeing the same ridiculous arguments by the men who want to keep their porn.

On the women's side I see actual hurt, and a desire to have a deeper relationship with their SO's.

But whether you change how you feel or not does not matter at all to me. I will keep on planting seeds. Those who are receptive might be able to improve their lives and relationships.


----------



## johnnycomelately

sparkyjim said:


> Every guy who argues that porn is okay eventually uses the statement that you just used.


Perhaps because it is true.



sparkyjim said:


> Just because you say it is so does not make it so. One can be against the use of porn for other reasons. This should not be the default label for anyone who does not want their husband to use porn. But if it helps you to "label" those who argue against porn then I guess you will continue to do it.


I don't label people. 



sparkyjim said:


> Is Dr. Oz also unqualified? Are you qualified to determine that he is unqualified?


Dr Oz? Are you serious? A dodgy TV personality who says homosexuality is an illness and supports the use of homeopathy. 



sparkyjim said:


> On the women's side I see actual hurt, and a desire to have a deeper relationship with their SO's.


So now all those millions of couples who use porn have shallow relationships? How do you have this insight into other people's relatioships?



sparkyjim said:


> But whether you change how you feel or not does not matter at all to me. I will keep on planting seeds. Those who are receptive might be able to improve their lives and relationships.


And I will keep combating fallacious statements about porn.


----------



## sparkyjim

You just don't care who or what you misrepresent, do you?


----------



## staarz21

johnnycomelately said:


> Perhaps because it is true.
> 
> I don't label people.


But you did label people when you said this:
*
"30% of women use porn. There are many, like my wife, who don't use porn but are mature, confident and open-minded enough not have a prudish disapproval of it."*

You labeled people who have some issues with porn as prudish, not open-minded, not confident, and immature.

So, because I am currently in a situation where my H cannot control himself with porn (his words not mine), he takes porn to work, watches it when he is supposed to be watching the kids, he spends 2 + hours watching it, he can't orgasm with me, and he watches it instead of having sex with me...I am prudish and immature because I want him to slow it down?! No. I don't think so. I never had a problem with porn until that happened. In fact, I watched it with him frequently.

I have sex with my H 4-6 times a week. I initiate, try new things, and do whatever he asks to please him. There is absolutely no reason why he should be watching porn that often. NONE. I never took porn away from him. I told him to slow down. He is the one that said he couldn't look at it at all for a while in order to reprogram his brain to work without it.


----------



## johnnycomelately

staarz21 said:


> But you did label people when you said this:
> *
> "30% of women use porn. There are many, like my wife, who don't use porn but are mature, confident and open-minded enough not have a prudish disapproval of it."*
> 
> You labeled people who have some issues with porn as prudish, not open-minded, not confident, and immature.Stating that there are mature, open-minded people out there, is not labelling anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> staarz21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, because I am currently in a situation where my H cannot control himself with porn (his words not mine), he takes porn to work, watches it when he is supposed to be watching the kids, he spends 2 + hours watching it, he can't orgasm with him, and he watches it instead of having sex with me...I am prudish and immature because I want him to slow it down?! No. I don't think so. I never had a problem with porn until that happened. In fact, I watched it with him frequently.
> 
> I have sex with my H 4-6 times a week. I initiate, try new things, and do whatever he asks to please him. There is absolutely no reason why he should be watching porn that often. NONE. I never took porn away from him. I told him to slow down. He is the one that said he couldn't look at it at all for a while in order to reprogram his brain to work without it.
> 
> 
> 
> I have never and will never defend neglect of a relationship. I would defend the right of any adult to drink alcohol, play golf, use the internet, garden...but to do anything to the extent that it damages your relationship is not morally justifiable. Simple.
> 
> The OP never stated that her partner was neglecting her. She herself stated that her issue stems from her insecurity, therefore her best course of action is to deal with the cause of the problem, not a symptom.
Click to expand...


----------



## sparkyjim

The original poster has disappeared into the ether...

Meanwhile there have been a few posts from women who do feel neglected in their relationships.

I think that across the board men do not think that their porn use affects their relationships. 

But I also think that women do notice more than their men think that they do, and I think that given a choice, they would opt for no porn in their lives.

I just want to bring light into these discussions. I don't think that men are finding the sexual fulfillment that they want by using porn, and I know that women feel like they are being left out, neglected, etc.

There are no easy answers, but holding on to porn just because it is a "right" has to be the thinnest argument ever thought up for the use of porn. I'm not denying anyone their rights, and I would not want to be the decider of what was obscene or not. All I am saying is that if men really want to have sexual fulfillment, deciding not to use porn would be a good first step toward finding that fulfillment.

If nothing else I bet that the woman would feel better and feel more fulfilled...


----------



## xrsm002

I've been married for almost 4 years and I look at porn because my sex life with my wife sucks, along with lack of intimacy, as in she still won't shower with me. So I look at porn to fantasize about getting sexually what I don't in real life, such as her giving not giving me oral sex when I give it to her. Can a women explain what's so gross about oral sex on a guy? I even shower before asking her.


----------



## johnnycomelately

sparkyjim said:


> The original poster has disappeared into the ether...
> 
> Meanwhile there have been a few posts from women who do feel neglected in their relationships.
> 
> I think that across the board men do not think that their porn use affects their relationships.
> 
> But I also think that women do notice more than their men think that they do, and I think that given a choice, they would opt for no porn in their lives.
> 
> I just want to bring light into these discussions. I don't think that men are finding the sexual fulfillment that they want by using porn, and I know that women feel like they are being left out, neglected, etc.
> 
> There are no easy answers, but holding on to porn just because it is a "right" has to be the thinnest argument ever thought up for the use of porn. I'm not denying anyone their rights, and I would not want to be the decider of what was obscene or not. All I am saying is that if men really want to have sexual fulfillment, deciding not to use porn would be a good first step toward finding that fulfillment.
> 
> If nothing else I bet that the woman would feel better and feel more fulfilled...


You speak for all women. You have yet to explain how you know how all these women feel. Don't you think that women can speak for themselves?

You have also decided that 70% of men don't have sexual fulfillment. How do you know that?


----------



## sparkyjim

johnnycomelately said:


> You speak for all women. You have yet to explain how you know how all these women feel. You have also decided that 70% of men don't have sexual fulfillment. How do you know that?



It's frustrating how you put words in my mouth.

I have merely referenced the posters who have posted here.

And how have I decided that 70% of men don't have sexual fulfillment? Is it because you say that 70% of men use porn?

On that note why have you decided that a man can only be sexually fulfilled by being able to access porn?


I am only responding to the pain that I see in the posts from women who don't want their husbands to use porn. I could also reference the pain that I see in the men who post here, saying that they use porn to escape some part of their relationship because it's easier than dealing with the real issue.

You have a rose colored glasses view of porn, which I think is based in your feeling that it is some sort of "right" which is granted a man when he reaches the age of accountability.

All I am saying is that porn is less of a right than it is a distraction from a real relationship. Yes, real relationships are messy, and they do hurt, and you can't get all your "needs" met in one. But that's real life, and while it sometimes sucks, it is more often such an unbelievable blessing that we are all trying to find a good one.

Porn is like sex, just like playing NASCAR on your X-box is like driving a car. Maybe more exciting but it's not going to get the groceries back home.

Hold on to whatever beliefs about porn that you need to. The bottom line is that you are not truly expressing your sexual desires if you are using porn. You are hiding something, living someone else's life, not being all you can in the relationship that you are in right now.

But what might be worse is that you are not allowing your wife to be your help mate - in every sense of the word. Sure she's okay with you watching porn...but I bet she never offered it up. I bet there was some point where she asked you about it, hoping that you didn't watch it.

Maybe she's not threatened by it. Maybe you are one of those guys who controls his use of it, doesn't escalate in what he watches, could take or leave it. Maybe, but you have never said that, and you argue too much for it to probably ever actually leave it.

I'm saying a lot, but all I'm really saying is that I have never heard a good argument for why a man should watch porn. On the flip side I have heard many good arguments on why he should not watch porn. 

And, unlike many of those who defend porn, I think that "how it makes your partner feel" is a very good argument for whether you should do something or not.

I suppose if you wanted to expand your argument about self esteem you could argue that you should never have to tell your partner "I love you" because that might affect her self esteem, and she should have enough self esteem to not need to hear those words. 

That argument is as sound as saying that she should not let your porn use effect how she feels about herself.


----------



## Wiserforit

sparkyjim said:


> I want to apologize to the ladies for the way us "men" sometimes defend this apparent right to watch porn that so many of us appear to think we have.


You speak for yourself and nobody else. Talk about hubris. 

Apparently, you don't even limit your omniscience to being the self-appointed spokesperson for all men. You speak for all women too, I guess. 

So we have the spokesperson for the entire human race here. 

Nice to meet you.


----------



## sparkyjim

Well, I don't consider myself so much the omniscient spokesperson
as I do the embarrassed apologist for the apparent obtuseness of men in regards to this particular porn issue.

My awareness comes from having learned the hard way so I am not sure how much pride has to do with it.

For you to say that I speak for no one else is assuming an awful lot, isn't it? I don't think that I am a lonely voice here. I might be unique in some ways but I am not alone.

Oh wait, I see what this is... I disagreed with you on another thread and you found me here. Now we are even?


----------



## Lyris

Of course my husband has the right to watch porn. I'm not his jailer. I don't get to decide what he watches or thinks about. 

Don't speak for me please, SparkyJim. I'm 40 years old. I've been in a relationship with my husband for more than 20 years. We are very very happy together.

Sometimes he watches some porn. So what? Sometimes I do, sometimes we watch together. We have great sex apart from that several times a week and there is no sense that he would prefer to watch porn.

But if he sometimes feels like looking at other women's bodies, fine by me. He promised to be faithful and he honours that promise, which is enough. 

He loves only me, he touches only me and he is committed to only me. He finds me very attractive. Why should I need to go one step further and insist he never look at anyone else ever? Makes no sense to me and it's clearly a position based on fear. I don't have that fear.


----------



## sparkyjim

Lyris said:


> Don't speak for me please, SparkyJim.


On such a polarizing issue I am sure that I am not speaking for everyone. Obviously I am not speaking for you Lyris, nor did I ever claim to speak for you.



Lyris said:


> He loves only me, he touches only me and he is committed to only me. He finds me very attractive. Why should I need to go one step further and insist he never look at anyone else ever? Makes no sense to me and it's clearly a position based on fear. I don't have that fear.



I am glad for you, and I can see that porn is not an issue for you in your marriage.

I am speaking up for those who find that porn is an issue. Often their fears are founded in very real observations of their relationships. To dismiss them as having low self esteem, or to say that they are fearful is a big disservice to the real feelings that they have.

Again, I have yet to hear a good argument for why a man needs porn. All I ever hear is blame shifting and diversions. It begs the question - if it's not such a big deal then why do some men lie about it, hide it, deny it, or hold onto it so strongly? If it's not such a big deal then why is it so hard to give it up?

Saying that it is a right is the weakest argument I have heard yet. I suppose that I have a right to ogle women all I want, right? It won't make my woman feel any better, nor will the woman I am ogling feel good, but it's my right...

It's a weak argument, that's all. Come at me with something better.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Sparkyjim, conveys my feelings very well. Very awesome informed and well though out responses.  thank you.


----------



## Lyris

sparkyjim said:


> On such a polarizing issue I am sure that I am not speaking for everyone. Obviously I am not speaking for you Lyris, nor did I ever claim to speak for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad for you, and I can see that porn is not an issue for you in your marriage.
> 
> I am speaking up for those who find that porn is an issue. Often their fears are founded in very real observations of their relationships. To dismiss them as having low self esteem, or to say that they are fearful is a big disservice to the real feelings that they have.
> 
> Again, I have yet to hear a good argument for why a man needs porn. All I ever hear is blame shifting and diversions. It begs the question - if it's not such a big deal then why do some men lie about it, hide it, deny it, or hold onto it so strongly? If it's not such a big deal then why is it so hard to give it up?
> 
> Saying that it is a right is the weakest argument I have heard yet. I suppose that I have a right to ogle women all I want, right? It won't make my woman feel any better, nor will the woman I am ogling feel good, but it's my right...
> 
> It's a weak argument, that's all. Come at me with something better.


Of course watching porn is not a need. It's a want, as are most things in our privileged lives. I don't need 90% of the things I have and do, but my life would be drab, grey and unpleasant without them. 

Porn is fun and it adds something interesting to an already very good sex life. My husband knows I have no issue if he watches porn and in fact he does so rarely. When our relationship was going through a difficult phase, he watched more. The amount he watches is in direct correlation to how often we are having sex.

I understand that there are men who choose porn over sex with their partners. There are women (and men) who choose celibacy or very limited sex for themselves and their partners by default. These are disfunctions and not conducive to a happy relationship, but porn watching itself does not have to cause problems or be a point of contention at all. 

Nice condescending final sentence by the way. I'm not really interested in coming at you personally with any argument and I don't feel that you are qualified to judge the strength or otherwise of my opinions.


----------



## EleGirl

If that's your photo as your avatar... you are every bit as good looking as most porn stars.

It's all about makeup, attitude and how they dress. Here's a link for you. While a few appear to be very beautiful even without makeup, most of them are not that attractive in the face. It takes buckets of makeup, saline injections to the lips, boob implants, etc to get their porn star looks.... so it's all fake. 

Porn Stars Without Makeup: Before And After Pictures By Melissa Murphy (PHOTOS)

Plus, they are not the kind of woman that most men really want to be with. Does your bf really want to be with a woman who will do any guy for $$?


----------



## I Notice The Details

Tell him how you feel...and then set up some scenarios where he could take very sexy pictures of you, with his digital camera....which he could use for his enjoyment. I assume that you wouldn't be offended if he was thinking of your body, getting super turned on, and pleasuring himself....all because of what he finds sexy about you....Right?

Just my thoughts and what has worked in my marriage. My wife is thrilled that I look at pictures of her body instead of someone else's body. She knows what I like, what my turn ons are, and she has even done some sexy, boudoir photos...which I love and cherish to this day.


----------



## johnnycomelately

sparkyjim said:


> It's frustrating how you put words in my mouth.
> 
> I have merely referenced the posters who have posted here.
> 
> And how have I decided that 70% of men don't have sexual fulfillment? Is it because you say that 70% of men use porn?


And you accuse me of putting words in your mouth? You said that "If men want to find sexual fulfillment" they should stop using porn. You are implying that the vast majority of men don't have fulfilling sex lives. Yet again you are assuming insight into the sex lives of millions of people. Insight you can't possibly have. You apologise on behalf of all men, you know how all women feel and you know that men who watch porn don't have fulfilling sex lives. Do you see a pattern here?



sparkyjim said:


> I am only responding to the pain that I see in the posts from women who don't want their husbands to use porn. I could also reference the pain that I see in the men who post here, saying that they use porn to escape some part of their relationship because it's easier than dealing with the real issue.


I am responding to that too. Again you have the hubristic view that only you are sensitive to their pain. I believe, sincerely, that the pain these women are suffering is caused by other issues, not images of people having sex. The OP is self-aware enough to see that. I truly believe that focusing on a ubiquitous cultural phenomena instead of relationship or emotional issues is a mistake and will not resolve their problems. Is it impossible for you to believe that I can watch porn and be emotionally sensitive and compassionate?



sparkyjim said:


> You have a rose colored glasses view of porn, which I think is based in your feeling that it is some sort of "right" which is granted a man when he reaches the age of accountability.


No, I _know _that adult men _and_ women have the right to view legal pornography: Who are you to unilaterally deny people their rights?



sparkyjim said:


> All I am saying is that porn is less of a right than it is a distraction from a real relationship. Yes, real relationships are messy, and they do hurt, and you can't get all your "needs" met in one. But that's real life, and while it sometimes sucks, it is more often such an unbelievable blessing that we are all trying to find a good one.


I disagree with you. I _can_ get all my needs met with just one woman. Porn helps me to do that, just as erotica and a dildo helps her to do the same. 




sparkyjim said:


> Hold on to whatever beliefs about porn that you need to. The bottom line is that you are not truly expressing your sexual desires if you are using porn. You are hiding something, living someone else's life, not being all you can in the relationship that you are in right now.


Right. Yet again you have insight into my sex life as well as that of millions of others. You are blinded by your grandiose sense of self. 



sparkyjim said:


> But what might be worse is that you are not allowing your wife to be your help mate - in every sense of the word. Sure she's okay with you watching porn...but I bet she never offered it up. I bet there was some point where she asked you about it, hoping that you didn't watch it.


So now not only do you understand the minds of millions, but you can read individual minds too. Incredible. 



sparkyjim said:


> Maybe she's not threatened by it. Maybe you are one of those guys who controls his use of it, doesn't escalate in what he watches, could take or leave it. Maybe, but you have never said that, and you argue too much for it to probably ever actually leave it.


Porn has been a positive addition to my life, so I see no reason to stop using it. I have a higher drive than my wife and would feel exploitative cajoling her into having sex when she wasn't in the mood. Porn provides me with a safe, practical way to control my sex drive, that doesn't infringe on my wife's well-being. To do otherwise would be unfair on her.


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## sparkyjim

Lyris said:


> Nice condescending final sentence by the way. I'm not really interested in coming at you personally with any argument and I don't feel that you are qualified to judge the strength or otherwise of my opinions.


My apologies Lyris.

That last statement wasn't directed at you, but it was misleading as it was in my reply to you.


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## Lyris

Thank you for your apology, sparkyjim.


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## Woodchuck

DirtyHippie said:


> I know a lot of people have hashed out the porn topic before-The advice I'm seeking less about porn and more about personal image, I think...
> 
> I understand that men (and women) watch porn. I don't want to ask my fiance to stop watching porn, but I can't help but feel sad, ugly, unwanted, etc. every time I find pictures of girls on the computer and whatnot. The women in those pictures are way prettier than I could ever hope to be, hell, their business is to look good! I'm only 24, so what happens when I'm 50 and saggy/wrinkly? What I am seeking advice on is; How do I cope with my own personal body image insecurities from the inevitable porn my fiance watches?


I have been married to my wife for 47 years. We first made love when I was 18....After nearly half a century, she is still the love of my life. I recently posted that I could not conjure up a mental image of myself making love to another woman....any other woman.....

Has she changed? Yes, as to be expected, she is not the 92 pound, size 2 girl that I married.....

Until I kiss her....

Then that beautiful young woman is back in my arms and all the feelings I had for her when I was 18 are as fresh and real as when we were first together.....She is my sexual icon, and always will be.....

She is also a little insecure about porn...

Go figure!

the woodchuck


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## MarriedWifeInLove

Sorry, porn is not okay. It's not harmless and it's not just something "that men do."

That's a cop out and an excuse to excuse bad behavior that makes women feel worthless, less than, not good enough, insecure, etc.

A woman can be confident, self-assured and secure in herself, how she looks and her body and all it takes is one porn picture and that self-confidence and self-esteem is ripped to shreds.

I am a 53 year old woman and have had my confidence destroyed by porn. It wasn't harmless to me, it wasn't insignificant and it wasn't no big deal.

Regardless of the reasons that your husband, boyfriend, fiancé look...the bottom line is they are looking at something they ARE NOT getting when they look at you--period. 

The message being...you're not good enough. Young enough, skinny enough, big enough breasts, small or big enough butt, long hair, shapely thighs, the list goes on and on and on.

And it's unrealistic at best. These women are photo-shopped, wigged out, special lighting, face and body make-up, etc. All to make them look like the unattainable.

If women looked at porn all the time like men do, we would have an entire group of men wondering why the hell they didn't measure up.

But you see, women appear to not only be different creatures, but more accepting of and blessed by what they have, not what they don't have or desire to have.

And I don't need to hear about testosterone, the caveman, how men are raised, and about men's needs and the fact that women couldn't possibly understand or have the same needs.

This is all about behavior and what men choose to do and the excuses they tell themselves and others so that "bad" behavior is deemed acceptable and who they are. It doesn't mean anything - I'm a man, it's how I'm wired. 

A bunch of crap. People consciously choose to either do the right thing or do the wrong thing.

It's about doing the right thing. Loving what you have, cherishing what you have, showing your wife, fiancé, girlfriend, etc. that she has worth, that you chose her because she was EVERYTHING you wanted, not just because she possessed some qualities on your checklist.

Porn is not harmless, it's not no big deal and it's not just something that men do. It's hurtful, demeaning and tells that special girl/woman in your life that she's just not good enough.

If that is love from a man, then I'm not interested.


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## Lyris

Well...of course my husband is getting something from porn that he can't get from me. That's the point. No matter how much he loves me and how attractive he finds me, I'm only ever going to be one person. Sometimes a bit of visual variety is nice.

I don't need to be the only woman my husband gets it up for. I do need to be, and am, the only woman he touches, loves and is emotionally close to. But the only woman he ever sees naked for decades? No, I don't believe that's reasonable or necessary. 

I'm sorry porn has had such a terrible effect on your relationship. But that's not the only possible outcome.


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## always_alone

I think women should stop comparing ourselves with others and worrying about what men think is attractive. All it leads to is grief and insecurity. 

Just do what makes you happy. Be who you are, wear what you want, shave your head if it you think it will be fun. If he likes it, great. If he complains, remind him it has nothing to do with him. You are expressing yourself and your sexuality in your own way. He can either like it or lump it.


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## PreRaphaelite

Some thoughts:

Porn is there. I view it and I'm married. Why? Because I want to engage in fantasy, because that's what porn is. It's not about what you see on the screen, it's about how you can fantasize about what you're seeing.

I want to fantasize that I can whip it out and a woman will completely fall at my feet with lust at the very sight of my wondrous wad.

I want to fantasize that any and all women crave endless sex and that I can give it to them because I'm such a stud.

I want to fantasize that my schlong is as big as his and that I can cum 6 times, each time with so much volume that she's completely wowed. 

I want to fantasize about her orgasm.

And I want to fantasize about how good it was and how satisfying it was for the both of us to share absolutely everything without reserve.

But the last fantasy is one that puts a pause into the visual fantasies of porn and makes me want to find the real fantasy with someone I can touch and make sex with in flesh and blood. 

Porn is great for me if I take some of those fantasies (not too seriously) and bring them to my wife's bed and use them just to play, just to have fun, just to make everything more exciting and laugh at myself doing it.

My wife doesn't have 38D breasts but I don't care. Her body has its own charms and they get me going well enough.

But if porn becomes too much of an escape from the relationship with the wife? Not good.


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## johnnycomelately

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Sorry, porn is not okay. It's not harmless and it's not just something "that men do."
> 
> That's a cop out and an excuse to excuse bad behavior that makes women feel worthless, less than, not good enough, insecure, etc.
> 
> A woman can be confident, self-assured and secure in herself, how she looks and her body and all it takes is one porn picture and that self-confidence and self-esteem is ripped to shreds.


Actually that is not true. You are projecting your feelings on to all women. Statistics show that up to 50% of women find porn an 'acceptable expression of sexuality'. 30% use it themselves, so you are in no position to make generalisations of this sort. 

My wife has seen the porn I look at and her self-esteem is intact. You must have had very delicate self-esteem indeed to have it destroyed by one porn pic.



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I am a 53 year old woman and have had my confidence destroyed by porn.


I think that you would be better off laying some of the blame on your husband rather than 'porn'. 

There are millions of couples out there where one or both use porn and no-ones self-esteem is destroyed. Porn is not some sentient being intent on destroying relationships. Refusing to see that you and your husband had a role in that is not going to help you repair your relationship.



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> But you see, women appear to not only be different creatures, but more accepting of and blessed by what they have, not what they don't have or desire to have.


Your sexism is very apparent in this post. Why the antipathy towards men?



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> And I don't need to hear about testosterone, the caveman, how men are raised, and about men's needs and the fact that women couldn't possibly understand or have the same needs.


Denying the biology of human beings is an exercise in futility, whether it is male or female. Denial and willful ignorance are disastrous.



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> If that is love from a man, then I'm not interested.


Once again your antipathy towards men. There must be a deeper reason for this, other than the normal porn usage.


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## sparkyjim

johnnycomelately said:


> Denying the biology of human beings is an exercise in futility, whether it is male or female. Denial and willful ignorance are disastrous.



I'm not going to keep coming at you johnny...

I can see that for you and for your relationship things are fine...
Porn is not an issue for you.


But I am not sure what you mean by this...

Do you mean to say that men are going to act the way that they act because of their biology?


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## johnnycomelately

sparkyjim said:


> I'm not going to keep coming at you johnny...
> 
> I can see that for you and for your relationship things are fine...
> Porn is not an issue for you.
> 
> 
> But I am not sure what you mean by this...
> 
> Do you mean to say that men are going to act the way that they act because of their biology?


I am saying that expecting _people_ not to be attracted to others; fantasise about others; to use porn and to masturbate is like King Canute ordering back the tide. It is setting yourself up for pain and disappointment.


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## sparkyjim

johnnycomelately said:


> I am saying that expecting _people_ not to be attracted to others; fantasise about others; to use porn and to masturbate is like King Canute ordering back the tide. It is setting yourself up for pain and disappointment.




I would agree with this in general.

The converse is also true - i.e. saying that I HAVE to be attracted to others; fantasize about others; use porn and masturbate BECAUSE I am human could also set yourself up for pain and disappointment.

I am not at all saying that any of the above is wrong. I am just saying that not recognizing that you have a choice is an error.

JCD said that men are SUPPOSED to masturbate - to porn, apparently (from the context of his post in a different thread.) That is kind of a laughable notion. I agree that we do masturbate, and I agree that it has a healthy effect, and I also agree that King Canute would not want to hold back that tide either, but the default position that porn is necessary is faulty.

I am not going to say yet again that porn is bad for you. I am only going to say that you have many choices, and that porn is perhaps the weakest of those choices.

It's something to think about....


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## johnnycomelately

sparkyjim said:


> The converse is also true - i.e. saying that I HAVE to be attracted to others; fantasize about others; use porn and masturbate BECAUSE I am human could also set yourself up for pain and disappointment.


Do you think that completely suppressing your fantasy life and abstaining from masturbation is a good idea? I don't. I think it is dangerous.


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## sparkyjim

johnnycomelately said:


> Do you think that completely suppressing your fantasy life and abstaining from masturbation is a good idea? I don't. I think it is dangerous.



For the record I do not abstain from masturbation. I don't think abstaining is "dangerous" but I do think that it can be unhealthy. 

Fantasy...why would abstaining from fantasy be dangerous? I guess it's your choice.

If I was in a HD/LD relationship again (my ex wife was LD - I resorted to porn) I would do things altogether differently.


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## johnnycomelately

sparkyjim said:


> For the record I do not abstain from masturbation. I don't think abstaining is "dangerous" but I do think that it can be unhealthy.


And you don't fantasise while you masturbate?


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## MarriedWifeInLove

Lyris said:


> Well...of course my husband is getting something from porn that he can't get from me. That's the point. No matter how much he loves me and how attractive he finds me, I'm only ever going to be one person. Sometimes a bit of visual variety is nice.
> 
> I don't need to be the only woman my husband gets it up for. I do need to be, and am, the only woman he touches, loves and is emotionally close to. But the only woman he ever sees naked for decades? No, I don't believe that's reasonable or necessary.
> 
> I'm sorry porn has had such a terrible effect on your relationship. But that's not the only possible outcome.


I never said that I expected to be the only naked woman that instills desire in him.

But porn sets up unrealistic expectations and is, by design, a way to assist women, who already have body issues and expectations with enforcing that they are never enough.

Men use their need for variety, their animalistic instincts, testosterone, etc., to excuse their inability to "keep it in their pants" for lack of a better word.

Why do men think they are the only ones that yearn for variety, that need other stimulation, that get bored, that fantasize about others, etc.? Who said they have the market on those needs?

What...you think that beer belly, sagging butt and inability to get it going after a certain age is such a turn on for us that we couldn't possibly want someone else?

That is my point, which was missed entirely by you as evidenced by your post.

You can speak for yourself, as I did, but not for everyone else...we don't all share your views.

Come back and visit us when you're 55, 60 and so on...then we'll see if you're singing a different tune.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

johnnycomelately said:


> Do you think that completely suppressing your fantasy life and abstaining from masturbation is a good idea? I don't. I think it is dangerous.


Dangerous to NOT masturbate?

Crap, I better call all those priests and nuns and tell them their lives are in danger.

Seriously...just when I think I've heard it all.


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## richie33

Let me guess your husband doesn't masturbate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove

johnnycomelately said:


> Yes, and many men do the same with work, golf, TV, gardening...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 30% of women use porn. There are many, like my wife, who don't use porn but are mature, confident and open-minded enough not have a prudish disapproval of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I do have the right to watch porn in a relationship. Masturbation is normal and healthy.
> 
> Obesity is also on the rise. Maybe I should be jumping on that wagon. Maybe I should start eating all the junk food that I can.
> 
> Marnia Robinson is a lawyer who is not qualified to diagnose anything. She makes a fortune, along with her husband who also is not qualified, out of this fallacy. Their material is full of pseudo-science and outright falsehoods. It falls apart on even a cursory glance. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relationships-addiction/70876-critique-your-brain-porn.html
> 
> But you made them anyway. Soon you will say that we should stop thread-jacking. This is a classic ploy of someone who has no real substance to back up their assertions and knows it.
> 
> 
> The OP herself said it was a self-esteem issue. I never said that. I called you old-fashioned, not her.
> 
> Yes, she should do whatever she can.
> 
> Trying to control the normal, legal behaviour of your partner is not good for the relationship. Working on her self-esteem is the answer, not damaging his by blaming him for her self-image problem.


JohnnyComeLately...perfect moniker for this ill thought out response.

Not being okay with porn has absolutely nothing to do with being old fashioned or with it. Where is the world did you get that connection from?

It's a cop out, excuse not to either work on things or focus on what is actual reality and not fantasy.

Or have you not read the studies that clearly show that "fantasy" is invading real lives and causing havoc in real-life relationships? That the mere thought of a life with the "fantasy person" is ruining relationships and marriages? Or perhaps that wasn't on your reading list.


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## sparkyjim

johnnycomelately said:


> And you don't fantasise while you masturbate?


Johnny - full out honesty - I am a work in progress. My aim is to only have sex with my SO - to not even masturbate.

My goal is not to fantasize either when I do masturbate. Most of the time I do not. Sometimes I do. Mostly I try to think of her and of us but when I stray from that I do notice how it changes me.

Look, let me tell you right now. Nothing in the world is better than good sex with a real woman. That's the meat and the potatoes, baby. Nothing better. Everything else detracts from it.

I don't want porn and fantasy to interfere with what I can have with her. I like the real thing.


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## eyuop

sparkyjim said:


> Johnny - full out honesty - I am a work in progress. My aim is to only have sex with my SO - to not even masturbate.
> 
> My goal is not to fantasize either when I do masturbate. Most of the time I do not. Sometimes I do. Mostly I try to think of her and of us but when I stray from that I do notice how it changes me.
> 
> Look, let me tell you right now. Nothing in the world is better than good sex with a real woman. That's the meat and the potatoes, baby. Nothing better. Everything else detracts from it.
> 
> I don't want porn and fantasy to interfere with what I can have with her. I like the real thing.


I agree mostly with this... except I'm not sure about the fantasy part. When I'm having real sex I'm focused on my wife. There has been times when I have fantasized during real sex, but it isn't really something I can say I can control really. It just happens. I am on the pathway of getting porn and masturbation out of my life. However, with my wife LD (I doubt the MB thing is going to leave completely unless her drive steps it up a few notches. I'm working on doing things that can help make that happen, too.


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## sparkyjim

eyuop said:


> I agree mostly with this... except I'm not sure about the fantasy part. When I'm having real sex I'm focused on my wife. There has been times when I have fantasized during real sex, but it isn't really something I can say I can control really. It just happens. I am on the pathway of getting porn and masturbation out of my life. However, with my wife LD (I doubt the MB thing is going to leave completely unless her drive steps it up a few notches. I'm working on doing things that can help make that happen, too.


I don't have time to get into it right now but I applaud you because if you are HD matched with an LD then you are taking the right steps to improve your sex life by doing the things that you are doing.

Resorting to porn and MB because of a mismatch only makes that mismatch worse. Arrgh... I really don't have time tonight.

Maybe I will post something tomorrow night.


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## Lyris

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I never said that I expected to be the only naked woman that instills desire in him.
> 
> But porn sets up unrealistic expectations and is, by design, a way to assist women, who already have body issues and expectations with enforcing that they are never enough.
> 
> Men use their need for variety, their animalistic instincts, testosterone, etc., to excuse their inability to "keep it in their pants" for lack of a better word.
> 
> Why do men think they are the only ones that yearn for variety, that need other stimulation, that get bored, that fantasize about others, etc.? Who said they have the market on those needs?
> 
> What...you think that beer belly, sagging butt and inability to get it going after a certain age is such a turn on for us that we couldn't possibly want someone else?
> 
> That is my point, which was missed entirely by you as evidenced by your post.
> 
> You can speak for yourself, as I did, but not for everyone else...we don't all share your views.
> 
> Come back and visit us when you're 55, 60 and so on...then we'll see if you're singing a different tune.


I wasn't going to respond here as I don't particularly care for the lecturing tone of your post, but then I read a few of your old posts and discovered that you and your husband have MMF threesomes and are not sexually exclusive anyway.

And now I really don't understand. You don't mind real sexual contact with an actual person, but you have an issue with porn? From reading the post I quoted above, it sounds like it's the unreal aspect of porn that you object to. Or maybe it's only the women in porn, as you feel you have to compete or something.

Anyway, it's nothing to do with me, and we clearly have diametrically opposing views. I would rather my husband (and myself) satisfy our desire for novelty through porn and fantasy, while keeping physical contact as an exclusive expression of love and intimacy between the two of us. 

So you're right, I do miss your point, or rather, I don't understand/agree with your position. I think that's because you haven't explained your contradictory position very clearly, rather than my lack of reading comprehension skills.


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## johnnycomelately

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Dangerous to NOT masturbate?
> 
> Crap, I better call all those priests and nuns and tell them their lives are in danger.
> 
> Seriously...just when I think I've heard it all.


It is very naive to think that priests don't masturbate. 

I also think that holding up Catholic priests as an example of good sexual health would be funny if it weren't so tragic, considering the endemic child abuse in the Catholic Church.


Evidence for health benefits of masturbation:

John Wass, Professor of Endocrinology at Oxford University:_ Around 80-90% of men masturbate and it's likely that priests do too, he says.

There is data to suggest that men who ejaculate more are less prone to prostate cancer, he says. "You could argue that it's not so healthy to be celibate._

Dr. Graham Giles, of the Cancer Council Victoria in Melbourne: _"It's a prostatic stagnation hypothesis. The more you flush the ducts out, the less there is to hang around and damage the cells that line them."_


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## johnnycomelately

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Or have you not read the studies that clearly show that "fantasy" is invading real lives and causing havoc in real-life relationships? That the mere thought of a life with the "fantasy person" is ruining relationships and marriages? Or perhaps that wasn't on your reading list.


It is interesting that you argue one thing on one thread and the opposite on another:



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> But I have to disagree that it's harmful to fantasize about someone else--a lot of MC's would tell you they disagree also. Fantasizing is just that - fantasizing - no truth, no chance that the fantasy become reality. It's harmless and usually something that you would keep to yourself, why would you advertise that anymore than advertising the day/time of your last masturbation romp?


Which is your real opinion?


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## Deejo

Epic thread-jack.

Hope the OP posts further ... in another thread.


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