# HD vs LD



## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Wondering how it is in your world.Who compromise's more the HD-LD Who's happier,Who is less willing to change,Who's more controlling, who's got the issure's.I my relationship I am HD its my problem,I need to change,Sex is not available uppond request.Its rationed out.I could never count on getting sex laid.A lot of questions I know????Just really want to know if all LD people controll the relationship or the sex part of it.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Make yourself more desirable.

Shes "LD" for you... that is why you are here.
She is desirable you are not.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm the HD, but no longer want my wife intimately. She has become undesirable. Maybe on purpose, not out of the realm of possibility.


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## Happyquest (Apr 21, 2009)

Just Wondering said:


> Wondering how it is in your world.Who compromise's more the HD-LD Who's happier,Who is less willing to change,Who's more controlling, who's got the issure's.I my relationship I am HD its my problem,I need to change,Sex is not available uppond request.Its rationed out.I could never count on getting sex laid.A lot of questions I know????Just really want to know if all LD people controll the relationship or the sex part of it.


The one that cares the least is the one in the most control. 

I would say the person with the LD has the most control and causes the person with the HD to change the most. LD person normally has everything they want and see no reason to change. 

I use to be the HD person and now have become more the the LD person and my wife has become the HD. I know I will get allot of flack but its kinda nice really. I am doing much better not always wishing and wanting and have the fantasy's. 

Its like food. Who is more satisfied the person that has eaten their fill or the person who goes to bed hungry?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

okeydokie said:


> I'm the HD, but no longer want my wife intimately. She has become undesirable. Maybe on purpose, not out of the realm of possibility.


Sometimes going through the feedback loop so many times, this is what happens. You don't even want it anymore.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Make yourself more desirable.
> 
> Shes "LD" for you... that is why you are here.
> She is desirable you are not.


How simple it is for you to make comments like that on this forum.This is a help forum,Not a bashing intertaining forum for your enjoyment.from what I have read from you.Is why you have one month and two eyes,Maybe you should do more reading than talking.I fine you very inconsiderite


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm the HD and my wifee is the LD.

I've stopped initiating for sex because of her LD and usual excuses. And when I'm in the mood, I relieve myself and no more rejection.

When my wifee is actually in the mood (1 - 2x month), I just tell her nope, not in the mood, been too long, sorry.

There is a price to pay for a LD spouse not will to make the 50% compromise and stick to it.


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## marriedmanhere (Aug 2, 2012)

I dont want to hijack the thead, but has it gotten that bad Cuddlebug? I remember that you thought things were much better.

But to answer OP... there was a time when my wife was very LD... I did not want it every day, but 2-3 a week and that was a chore for her. We talked and worked it out. Some weeks were 1 times... some weeks about 3.. but she was willing to work with me and I was willing not to pester her too much. 

But I know that doesnt work for everyone.
I guess I am lucky to have a loving wife that is willing to work with me.

We now average about 2-3 times a week and her desire is higher. She is more into it now. I am not sure what changed her desire.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

When I was LD I called the shots sexually. We only had sex when it was ok with me. Not exactly only when I wanted it, or it would have been never, but only when I could tolerate it. Then we compromised to every Sat morning. I think in our civilized society, the LD spouse has the control because you can't legally force anyone to have sex. You can be annoying and whine about it, or aggressive and demand it, but that won't get you anywhere in the long run. Since the HD wants access to the LD's body, the LD has to be willing to grant it. If they aren't, there really isn't much the HD can do unless they know WHY their spouse is LD and they can help to change that. But then the LD will have to want to change and that is a whole 'nother ball of wax. 

Now I am much much much more interested in sex, but I still call the shots. I've been more than willing to give that up to hubs, but he seems quite content with the status quo. I'm not sure how I feel about that.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Not sure if I or my wife have ever been LD. However I would say I am HD, my wife is XHD... so yea she can wear me out at times. Is that to say she compromises for me? I don't think so at least she has never indicated as much. 

Let's just say I am cool with 3x/week while I am pretty sure she is ready to romp 8 days a week (old Beatles line) except during her period (which last longer now, peri-menopause). However, each session... I make point of being all in. It is her who I have my attention on and receptive to her needs. No outside thoughts or distractions or anything other than focusing on the two of us.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> When I was LD I called the shots sexually. We only had sex when it was ok with me. Not exactly only when I wanted it, or it would have been never, but only when I could tolerate it. Then we compromised to every Sat morning. I think in our civilized society, the LD spouse has the control because you can't legally force anyone to have sex. You can be annoying and whine about it, or aggressive and demand it, but that won't get you anywhere in the long run. Since the HD wants access to the LD's body, the LD has to be willing to grant it. If they aren't, there really isn't much the HD can do unless they know WHY their spouse is LD and they can help to change that. But then the LD will have to want to change and that is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
> 
> Now I am much much much more interested in sex, but I still call the shots. I've been more than willing to give that up to hubs, but he seems quite content with the status quo. I'm not sure how I feel about that.


My LD wifee calls the shots too. I have stopped initiating sex and we have it maybe 1 - 2x month now. The result is we chat, are friends but that closeness, intimacy, bonding is gone. I miss it so much and am sexually starved but what can I really do? All her doing....


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Interesting read and I'd thought I'd share the below link to an article someone recently shared with me that the HD men might want to share with their LD wives

TO WIVES: Why Is Sex So Important? | Marriage Missions International


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Just Wondering said:


> Wondering how it is in your world.Who compromise's more the HD-LD


Both compromise in most relationships I believe. The LD 'puts out' more than he/she wants, and the HD gets less than he/she wants. You could argue the LD compromises more from a physical standpoint, as she (if it's a woman) has to allow someone into her body, while he (if it's a man) has to physically get himself erect to do the deed. Mentally, the HD compromises a lot more.



Just Wondering said:


> Who's happier,


The LD person. The HD person is left wondering 'should I ask?' 'Is she/he in the mood?' 'COuld he/she get in the mood?' 'Do we have any plans tonight?' If he/she's not in the mood tonight then it'll be until X-day because we're busy for the next X nights.' etc. It almost becomes like a covert mission to plan out getting your spouse in the mood, but you can't let on you are trying to walk on eggshells sexually around her/him because then it'll look 'pathetic' and will put him/her out of the mood. Outside of wondering if the HD person is going to 'bug me tonight', the LD person doesn't have near as many thoughts regarding sex, nor as many negative thoughts, not to mention little/no rejections, so typically the LD person is happier.



Just Wondering said:


> Who is less willing to change,


The LD person because A) Why change? B) They often get sex at the snap of their fingers, so it's a perfect situation, or at least a perfect situation for them regarding their sexual partner if they don't like who they have for a sex partner.



Just Wondering said:


> Who's more controlling,


The LD person isn't always controlling, but by default they are the more controlling one since the HD person usually has no control whatsoever, at least regarding getting sex.



Just Wondering said:


> who's got the issure's.


I assume you mean 'issue's', if not please clarrify.

There doesn't necessarily have to be anyone with an issue, one person likes sex a lot, the other doesn't (or at least not as much). It's like comparing one person who likes to take romantic strolls in a relationship marrying someone who doesn't. Neither person has an issue, they just aren't compatible on that topic. If it's a huge issue to one/both of them, then they shouldn't have gotten married and should consider divorce, depending on how major of an issue it is.



Just Wondering said:


> I my relationship I am HD its my problem,I need to change,Sex is not available uppond request.Its rationed out.I could never count on getting sex laid.A lot of questions I know????Just really want to know if all LD people controll the relationship or the sex part of it.


As I said, the LD person controls it because they want less of it. It's like a fish and a camel. The camel can go a lot longer without it and if the fish tried to outlast the camel he'd die trying every time. You're wife is the camel. She can just go a long time without needing a drink.

The issue isn't that your wife is a camel though. The issue is that you should have found yourself a fish before getting married to anyone, given how vital sex is to you.

If your wife was a fish, then that's another story and you need to hold her accountable and remind her that how she was isn't how she is and that it's just an example of false advertising. I wouldn't blame you for considering divorce, if that's how she changed, especially if she's aware of it and is doing little/nothing to change it or revert back to how she was (barring any medical issues perventing it of course).


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

As always, Mr. Kingsfan's eloquence never ceases to amaze me! :smthumbup:


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> When I was LD I called the shots sexually. We only had sex when it was ok with me. Not exactly only when I wanted it, or it would have been never, but only when I could tolerate it. Then we compromised to every Sat morning. I think in our civilized society, the LD spouse has the control because you can't legally force anyone to have sex. You can be annoying and whine about it, or aggressive and demand it, but that won't get you anywhere in the long run. Since the HD wants access to the LD's body, the LD has to be willing to grant it. If they aren't, there really isn't much the HD can do unless they know WHY their spouse is LD and they can help to change that. But then the LD will have to want to change and that is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
> 
> Now I am much much much more interested in sex, but I still call the shots. I've been more than willing to give that up to hubs, but he seems quite content with the status quo. I'm not sure how I feel about that.


Part of restoring hubs confidence would be allowing him to control the sexual interaction at a higher rate, and actually let him be in control. Give in to the man. You are strong enough in the rest of your life from how it sounds. When a man's own wife won't give into him, it feels like the entire world is against him, even his wife. So yes, if he's not cheating its going to be hard to get a solid base of confidence in himself as a man.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Part of restoring hubs confidence would be allowing him to control the sexual interaction at a higher rate, and actually let him be in control. Give in to the man. You are strong enough in the rest of your life from how it sounds. When a man's own wife won't give into him, it feels like the entire world is against him, even his wife. So yes, if he's not cheating its going to be hard to get a solid base of confidence in himself as a man.


But how do I give in to him if he never asks anything of me? He just lays there, I initiate everything. Once we get going, he takes over and that is great but to get anything started is all up to me. I'm afraid to sit back and NOT initiate, just to see what would happen, in case he thinks I've gone back to not wanting it. If he even slightly thinks that, he won't push at all. I've asked him if there is anything he wants, anything he wants to try but he won't say. He just says no, there isn't. I don't know what to do next.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> But how do I give in to him if he never asks anything of me? He just lays there, I initiate everything. Once we get going, he takes over and that is great but to get anything started is all up to me. I'm afraid to sit back and NOT initiate, just to see what would happen, in case he thinks I've gone back to not wanting it. If he even slightly thinks that, he won't push at all. I've asked him if there is anything he wants, anything he wants to try but he won't say. He just says no, there isn't. I don't know what to do next.


It sounds like he just doesn't have it in him. Some don't.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Both compromise in most relationships I believe. The LD 'puts out' more than he/she wants, and the HD gets less than he/she wants. You could argue the LD compromises more from a physical standpoint, as she (if it's a woman) has to allow someone into her body, while he (if it's a man) has to physically get himself erect to do the deed. Mentally, the HD compromises a lot more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Theres a couple kind of camels though.

Some are a camel, because they get enough of that attention alone that they need no sex with their spouse.

Others know they can go outside at anytime, and have sex with someone who fits their physical requirements better than the spouse at the drop of a dime, so they don't need it from the spouse.

Others just don't need it at all whether they get the attention or not, they don't care.

How can a spouse get the camel to WANT it with them more than any other source?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> But how do I give in to him if he never asks anything of me? He just lays there, I initiate everything. Once we get going, he takes over and that is great but to get anything started is all up to me. I'm afraid to sit back and NOT initiate, just to see what would happen, in case he thinks I've gone back to not wanting it. If he even slightly thinks that, he won't push at all. I've asked him if there is anything he wants, anything he wants to try but he won't say. He just says no, there isn't. I don't know what to do next.


Because you are still calling the shots, I think. You said it yourself in another thread, you hate men, and when you were LD, you bullied your husband into accepting that the only way to get any kind of sex from you is by submitting to your mercy. Now you think you're no longer LD, BUT, you are still calling the shots, which means, now you want him to want to initiate having sex with you. So, in sexual terms, you're still the dominant partner and he is still at your mercy. I think first you have to stop bullying him. Allow him to lead in every aspects of your marriage, not just sex. Be more "submissive" to him if you have to. By submissive does not means that you're turning into a slave, but by being less of a dominant partner. Let him be the "leader". When he is confident that he is an equal partner on your marriage, slowly he will become more confident in bed too.

Most importantly, stop this mentality of "I will give you sex only when I feel like it", but try to understand, and ultimately acquire the mentality of "in the mood or not, if you ask for sex, I am ready".

It worked for me. I am the LD partner in my marriage, but I realized that a little self-hypnosis (and food supplements) does wonders. I used to think this way "If I don't feel like having sex, why should I?". Now, when my wife is giving the sign of wanting to have sex, I convince myself that I also want to have sex, coz I want to make her happy, and when she's happy, I am happy too. Usually, within several minutes slowly erection will come (not instant though), and PIV sex will be possible.


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## ubercoolpanda (Sep 11, 2012)

I'm sorry but what does HD and LD stand for?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

High Desire vs Low Desire


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Both compromise in most relationships I believe. The LD 'puts out' more than he/she wants, and the HD gets less than he/she wants. You could argue the LD compromises more from a physical standpoint, as she (if it's a woman) has to allow someone into her body, while he (if it's a man) has to physically get himself erect to do the deed. Mentally, the HD compromises a lot more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:iagree: You nailed it!!! :iagree:


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> But how do I give in to him if he never asks anything of me? He just lays there, I initiate everything. Once we get going, he takes over and that is great but to get anything started is all up to me. I'm afraid to sit back and NOT initiate, just to see what would happen, in case he thinks I've gone back to not wanting it. If he even slightly thinks that, he won't push at all. I've asked him if there is anything he wants, anything he wants to try but he won't say. He just says no, there isn't. I don't know what to do next.


Have you ever thought of just telling him "Honey, I'm horny as hell for you and I want you badly a lot, but I don't want to be the only one initiating sex, so I'm going to stop initiating and leave it up to you to do." Then end it by promising to not say no when he does ask for the first while (at least a few months or more) unless you are completely sick or something. 

Set it up so that he knows you are sexually interested and that he has zero chance of failure.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Theres a couple kind of camels though.
> 
> Some are a camel, because they get enough of that attention alone that they need no sex with their spouse.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm talking solely about sex within the confines of the marriage. If you want to expand it into adultery, that's a whole other dimension beyond the scope of this thread.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Yeah, I'm talking solely about sex within the confines of the marriage. If you want to expand it into adultery, that's a whole other dimension beyond the scope of this thread.


I did not expand it into adultery. I said, how do we get the camel to have the spouse as a preferred source of it's "water"?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

treyvion said:


> I did not expand it into adultery. I said, how do we get the camel to have the spouse as a preferred source of it's "water"?


You said, and I quote "Others know they can go outside at anytime, and have sex with someone who fits their physical requirements better than the spouse at the drop of a dime, so they don't need it from the spouse."

How is that NOT adultery?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Its adultery if they act on it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Its adultery if they act on it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you're saying that the spouse doesn't want to have sex with his/her spouse because they know they can have sex elsewhere?

A) How does knowing you can have sex elsewhere make you want sex less? If I'm hungry but know I could eat at two different places, I don;t get less hungry. B) How exactly does he/she know he/she can have sex with someone else? Does someone just offer it to them and they say no? Maybe at a bar at 2 a.m., but outside of that not many people just offer up sex unless there's been a lot of flirting going on both ways, which would indicate another problem anyways.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> So you're saying that the spouse doesn't want to have sex with his/her spouse because they know they can have sex elsewhere?
> 
> A) How does knowing you can have sex elsewhere make you want sex less? If I'm hungry but know I could eat at two different places, I don;t get less hungry. B) How exactly does he/she know he/she can have sex with someone else? Does someone just offer it to them and they say no? Maybe at a bar at 2 a.m., but outside of that not many people just offer up sex unless there's been a lot of flirting going on both ways, which would indicate another problem anyways.


They might not necessarily cheat, but others meet their visual standards so much know and many women get their fill simply off of the attention they get, so some of them don't "need" sex because of all the sexual attention they get.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

treyvion said:


> They might not necessarily cheat, but others meet their visual standards so much know and many women get their fill simply off of the attention they get, so some of them don't "need" sex because of all the sexual attention they get.


I'd like to get a female perspective on this. While I know that some level of 'attention' can work for women, I've never heard of this as a long-term fix to replace sex on a continual basis.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> I'd like to get a female perspective on this. While I know that some level of 'attention' can work for women, I've never heard of this as a long-term fix to replace sex on a continual basis.


There was a percentage of women, that all sex was in the first place was a certain type of attention - so if they can get that and not have to have sex, they are happy as pigs in mud.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

kingsfan....Well you are correct, for myself, it wouldn't be a long term fix. However in my past marriage there were times when I was a clueless fool when instead of dealing directly with our SSM, I just soaked up outside attention.

In retrospect, it "felt" like it replaced a need...but it was kind of like cotton candy. Oh so sweet and pretty, but no substance and no nutrition.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> kingsfan....Well you are correct, for myself, it wouldn't be a long term fix. However in my past marriage there were times when I was a clueless fool when instead of dealing directly with our SSM, I just soaked up outside attention.
> 
> In retrospect, it "felt" like it replaced a need...but it was kind of like cotton candy. Oh so sweet and pretty, but no substance and no nutrition.


So could you actually subsist on attention and not want/need sex? How long would you go between sexual encounters?


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Have you ever thought of just telling him "Honey, I'm horny as hell for you and I want you badly a lot, but I don't want to be the only one initiating sex, so I'm going to stop initiating and leave it up to you to do." Then end it by promising to not say no when he does ask for the first while (at least a few months or more) unless you are completely sick or something.
> 
> Set it up so that he knows you are sexually interested and that he has zero chance of failure.


I have done something similar. I told him he has "carte blanche" for whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I'm up for pretty much anything, good to go whenever. I have stopped being as overt about initiating as well, trying to leave it up to him some of the time. But that kinda goes against the grain for me. If I want something, I go for it. I don't like waiting for someone else to decide they want it to LOL. 
The other night we went to bed and I had no expectations. I was getting ready to roll over to go to sleep and he jumped me. I was pleasantly surprised.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, it is actually kind of hard to remember as it was so long ago, but I think we went months without sex and yes, it was a sort-of fill in.

But as I said...I now realize I was just wasting my own time. The problems between us were pretty big and we just didn't face or deal with them at all. I had my head buried pretty deep. By the time we were willing to work on our problems, it was too late and we just gave up.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> So could you actually subsist on attention and not want/need sex? How long would you go between sexual encounters?


 I've always gotten a lot of attention from men. I don't have to try, I don't seek it out, I don't hang out at bars(never even been in one)....I just attract it for whatever reasons. So the whole time I wasn't interested in having sex with my husband, I still knew I was attractive and desirable to lots of men. I did not need to have my husband make me feel that way because I already knew I was. Both by my own standards and by the reactions and attention I got from other people. . 

For me, it had no bearing on my sex drive. Perhaps if I hadn't had that attention, I would have been insecure about my looks but I wouldn't have turned to hubs to make me feel better about myself.

For me, the attention is a power play. I have something they want/admire but I don't have to even acknowledge them. Sex has always been a power play to me as well so I certainly had my fill.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> I have done something similar. I told him he has "carte blanche" for whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I'm up for pretty much anything, good to go whenever. I have stopped being as overt about initiating as well, trying to leave it up to him some of the time. But that kinda goes against the grain for me. If I want something, I go for it. I don't like waiting for someone else to decide they want it to LOL.
> The other night we went to bed and I had no expectations. I was getting ready to roll over to go to sleep and he jumped me. I was pleasantly surprised.


Good! Hopefully you encouraged him to do it more often. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Well, it is actually kind of hard to remember as it was so long ago, but I think we went months without sex and yes, it was a sort-of fill in.
> 
> But as I said...I now realize I was just wasting my own time. The problems between us were pretty big and we just didn't face or deal with them at all. I had my head buried pretty deep. By the time we were willing to work on our problems, it was too late and we just gave up.


So was it a fill in really, or did you just not want any from him regardless? Like if you hadn't had that attention would you have wanted sex with your husband?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

kingsfan...It was definitely just a fill in. If we had had a good sex life and if I had that attention from my husband, I wouldn't have sought out that outside attention.

But I do want to say, I was wrong in seeking out that attention. I should have just faced our issues instead.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> I've always gotten a lot of attention from men. I don't have to try, I don't seek it out, I don't hang out at bars(never even been in one)....I just attract it for whatever reasons. So the whole time I wasn't interested in having sex with my husband, I still knew I was attractive and desirable to lots of men. I did not need to have my husband make me feel that way because I already knew I was. Both by my own standards and by the reactions and attention I got from other people. .
> 
> For me, it had no bearing on my sex drive. Perhaps if I hadn't had that attention, I would have been insecure about my looks but I wouldn't have turned to hubs to make me feel better about myself.
> 
> For me, the attention is a power play. I have something they want/admire but I don't have to even acknowledge them. Sex has always been a power play to me as well so I certainly had my fill.


Many of us always knew you where a "power view" person...


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Many of us always knew you where a "power view" person...


It is the only way I understand relations between men and women. Well, between all humans, really. I feel that everything boils down to exchanges in power.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> It is the only way I understand relations between men and women. Well, between all humans, really. I feel that everything boils down to exchanges in power.


Some people just like doing things for each other, no power view at all. And they even feel happier for doing it.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> I'd like to get a female perspective on this. While I know that some level of 'attention' can work for women, I've never heard of this as a long-term fix to replace sex on a continual basis.


For me, it doesn't matter how much attention I get outside of my marriage, whether it be attention from my female friends, or attention from men, nothing, absolutely _nothing_, will take away my need for that sexual connection with my husband. Ever.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

I get lots of outside male attention from men who are more attractive than my hubby. Knowing that I can have sex anytime I want to makes me desire it less. It is like people who work in a bakery, they start out wanting to sample all of the items in the store. After they worked there for a while they get tired of seeing breads and cakes all day. 

In other words, most women I know can get laid anytime they choose to, men were always chasing after them as soon as they began puberty. They always had to be careful around men "taking advantage of them" so they had to learn to avoid sexual advances at an early age. Then they get married, and it is difficult to turn off the early training so they see their husband as another man who needs sex from them. They want marriage because they want kids and the other advantages, but they have this mindset towards sex to deal with.

This is the way I was, and this has been my experience in life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

techmom said:


> I get lots of outside male attention from men who are more attractive than my hubby. Knowing that I can have sex anytime I want to makes me desire it less. It is like people who work in a bakery, they start out wanting to sample all of the items in the store. After they worked there for a while they get tired of seeing breads and cakes all day.
> 
> In other words, most women I know can get laid anytime they choose to, men were always chasing after them as soon as they began puberty. They always had to be careful around men "taking advantage of them" so they had to learn to avoid sexual advances at an early age. Then they get married, and it is difficult to turn off the early training so they see their husband as another man who needs sex from them. They want marriage because they want kids and the other advantages, but they have this mindset towards sex to deal with.
> 
> ...



Yes yes, exactly!!:iagree:


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> I'm the HD and my wifee is the LD.
> 
> I've stopped initiating for sex because of her LD and usual excuses. And when I'm in the mood, I relieve myself and no more rejection.
> 
> ...


These are the games many married women play. When I was married, it was a similar situation. She was LD and I was not HD, just "regular human drive", but sex was rationed out, and she would try to use sex as a bargaining chip. This is very common these days. I know waaay too many men who deal with this chit on the daily.

The LD could sometimes be considered LazyD, since not making the effort is often a combination of being lazy and trying to be controlling. It's not always that they need it less than their partner. And you can't always blame the guy for being "too beta"...but he really shouldn't put up with it or any fitness test...that only makes it worse.

In the end, I gave up and moved on. Near the end, she was practically throwing herself at me but it was a complete turn-off given her past behavior. It wasn't genuine, just a ploy to try and keep me around.

I won't entertain these games. If the woman is LD, I'm not interested. If she was normal D and changed to LD, I'm probably not going to stick around very long.

I think quite often, it's not that these people are LD, it's that they do this on purpose to control the sex. If someone is actually LD, they should get some help...unless they don't care about their partners happiness.

As far as I'm concerned, withholding sex when you are married is almost as bad as cheating, because you ARE cheating the person out of something very important.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

techmom said:


> I get lots of outside male attention from men who are more attractive than my hubby. Knowing that I can have sex anytime I want to makes me desire it less. It is like people who work in a bakery, they start out wanting to sample all of the items in the store. After they worked there for a while they get tired of seeing breads and cakes all day.
> 
> In other words, most women I know can get laid anytime they choose to, men were always chasing after them as soon as they began puberty. They always had to be careful around men "taking advantage of them" so they had to learn to avoid sexual advances at an early age. Then they get married, and* it is difficult to turn off the early training so they see their husband as another man who needs sex from them*. They *want marriage because they want kids and the other advantages*, but they have this mindset towards sex to deal with.
> 
> ...


Well, it's really up to a woman to deal with that. At some point you have to grow up. You're married now with a husband who has needs...and by getting married you agreed to fulfill his needs in this area (and he your needs), and that was the deal, so you could forsake all others. 

I feel sorry for these husbands. Married to someone who "want marriage because they want kids and the other advantages", just not sex.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

tulsy said:


> These are the games many married women play. When I was married, it was a similar situation. She was LD and I was not HD, just "regular human drive", but sex was rationed out, and she would try to use sex as a bargaining chip. This is very common these days. I know waaay too many men who deal with this chit on the daily.
> 
> The LD could sometimes be considered LazyD, since not making the effort is often a combination of being lazy and trying to be controlling. It's not always that they need it less than their partner. And you can't always blame the guy for being "too beta"...but he really shouldn't put up with it or any fitness test...that only makes it worse.
> 
> ...


:iagree::smthumbup:


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :iagree::smthumbup:


One of our ladies commented that sex was always about power exchanges in her eyes.

My theory is that there are some real LD's due to hormones or thyroid and environment... ( around alot of butches, and think thats normal ).

But there are many other LD's who are people who subscribe to the "power view". They don't want to "give" too much, because it takes away from their "power". These are the ones who give these little tiny nuggets of love and affection and talk about their spouses like some little puppies that have no feelings or needs of their own.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> Yes yes, exactly!!:iagree:


Someone who is more self centered and who doesn't have to be a husband and who you don't know all their secrets and what they do behind closed doors, can fashion themself to be "more attractive". Does this not make sense?

Are they going to do for you what your husband does? Hell no...


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

I was agreeing more with the PP's bakery analogy and having learned to avoid sexual advances for safety's sake than the "more attractive" part. My dh has always been very attractive to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Men wanted in my pants from a very early age, too. I knew it instinctively. Yes, women in my life warned me to be wary. I didn't care, I was eager to have sex, I and knew that a man's natural urges were the same natural urges that made me wet my pants.

Same story, different woman, different interpretation.

Some of us women are freaking horny. And we don't fear or hate men just because they want to f*ck us.

Now having said that, I don't want to f*ck a baby-man, I want to f*ck a real man.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"While it might seem that the simple answer is "the LD spouse in that situation should then want to please the HD spouse, therefore giving it up more", that only shows that most really have no concept of what HD/LD are."



Actually, the simple answer is that LD people should marry LD people, and HD people should marry HD people.

If you are in a mismatched sex drive marriage, you should not fight against this. You should accept it and either:

1. Make agreements on how you will both handle the mistmatch and adhere to the agreements, or

2. Lovingly release your spouse, knowing that there is no reason to hate each other over a sex drive mismatch.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

humanbecoming said:


> Spot on. It isn't often that someone here breaks down LD into different categories,, but I completely agree with you here. When we see the term LD, we are often led to immediately think the LD partner is either uncaring, cold, or other wise emotionally manipulative. I don't believe that is the case. It is certainly possible for a person to be caring, love their partner, and have a good life with them, yet not have a high physical desire for full sexual activity.
> 
> IMO, that kind of dynamic is far worse for the HD spouse, as it's harder to deal with. How can a reasonable person ask of someone whom they love, and who honestly loves and cares for them and shows it, for that person to become what they are not?
> 
> ...


I like how you observe how I broke LD down into categories. That's what we observe it is here.

There are LD who may not have a drive of their own, but wouldn't even want to please their spouse if they did, because it's not in them. They don't think they should have to please their spouse, and it may be a cyclical thing that causes them to be LD.

The other side of it, was our emotional state and views alot of times ties to our hormone levels so some of these LD's may have an appreciative drive and desire if the hormones and thyroid get adjusted to a more reasonable balance. They don't even know if they have this adjustment done, they will look at it entirely differently.

Then the "power view" LD's.... They are LD due to their thought process. This tought process enforces a viewpoints and boundary conditions, it locks in a certain brain chemistry...

We have the "care" and "don't care" types...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I like how you observe how I broke LD down into categories. That's what we observe it is here.
> 
> There are LD who may not have a drive of their own, but wouldn't even want to please their spouse if they did, because it's not in them. They don't think they should have to please their spouse, and it may be a cyclical thing that causes them to be LD.
> 
> ...


In any case we can simplify it to:

1/2 the time they DO NOT CARE. And could not even care to care.

1/2 the time it is a hormonal or physical health issue.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

treyvion...I think there are many more types than "care" and "don't care" LD's.

There are many types of HD, too.

It is quite complicated, really.

My stance is that people shouldn't spend that much time trying to "work on" these issues. Just face the issues, and decide of it can be worked out to each partner's satisfaction or not.

If not, no hard feelings....seriously. Hey, I picked wrong the first time, too. I'm done with blaming. I'll take all the blame at this point...and I'll take all the credit for walking away and finding a compatible mate the second time.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"If people did what was right, rather than what was in their self interest, lots would be better in the world."



I believe it is the right thing to do AND in each of our self interest to lovingly release each other if there is a sexual mismatch.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "If people did what was right, rather than what was in their self interest, lots would be better in the world."
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it is the right thing to do AND in each of our self interest to lovingly release each other if there is a sexual mismatch.


On one of my blogs someone said that the only people who tell the truth are kids and "old" people.

I responded, they don't realize how much the people who lie and keep trying to get over have setbacks, so if you are wise as you get older, you have to lie much less, because you don't do things where you have to lie in the first place.

But obviously a lot of fast moving people, do a lot of lieing, manipulating and as long as people hold their positions and take their crap, they don't see anything wrong with it.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

If your partner is not interested in having sex with you then the bottom line is they're not sexually attracted to you. It could be their issue (hormonal, respressive ideas about sex etc.) or it could be yours (not making yourself appealing to them), a combination of the two (relationship problem) or something completely unrelated (financial pressures etc). 

I think you need to start by engaging in some honest conversation to determine what exactly the root issue is. Some things can be fixed while others can't. If it's something that can't (or won't) be fixed you have some hard decisions to make.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I like how you observe how I broke LD down into categories. That's what we observe it is here.
> 
> There are LD who may not have a drive of their own, but wouldn't even want to please their spouse if they did, because it's not in them. They don't think they should have to please their spouse, and it may be a cyclical thing that causes them to be LD.
> 
> ...



I don't think you can fit people into boxes with labels. General terms like HD and LD are broad and encompassing, but trying to further categorize people is futile as there are so so many variations on the themes of HD and LD. People will identify will many reasons for the way they are, or none at all. I don't fit in any of your descriptions, but I can take bits and pieces of them and make my own category that will only ever fit me. I am the product of MY environment, MY experiences, MY life. So is everyone else the product of theirs. There isn't a set of molds that LD people pop out of. 


You say "_There are LD who may not have a drive of their own, but wouldn't even want to please their spouse if they did, because it's not in them. They don't think they should have to please their spouse, and it may be a cyclical thing that causes them to be LD._" Well in my case that is true, but not for the reasons you ascribe. I didn't have a drive at all and I didn't think I should be responsible for dealing with Dh's drive. I figured it was his problems, he should deal with it. So you would think I was cold and uncaring or just a mean bi*ch, right? 

I wasn't.

I was just totally naive. I had NO IDEA. I didn't know what sex meant to a man so since it didn't matter to me I didn't see why it would matter to him. Him making an issue out of it, out of something I didn't want to do, was uncomfortable with, was just a power play on his part that got my stubborn streak going. It was all very black and white to me and had nothing to do with lack of love or caring. I was just being extremely rational with what was my reality. I didn't know it wasn't his reality too. 



> The other side of it, was our emotional state and views alot of times ties to our hormone levels so some of these LD's may have an appreciative drive and desire if the hormones and thyroid get adjusted to a more reasonable balance. They don't even know if they have this adjustment done, they will look at it entirely differently.




There is not a thing wrong with my hormones or thyroid. And my thyroid has been tested several times for other reasons. I've carried two pregnancies to term, delivered two healthy boys. I've been exposed to plenty of testosterone LOL. Not a thing wrong with me. Perfectly normal hormones, no sex drive. 




> Then the "power view" LD's.... They are LD due to their thought process. This tought process enforces a viewpoints and boundary conditions, it locks in a certain brain chemistry...
> .


Now this describes my case a bit better. I view all human interactions as basically transactions and the currency is sex or power. As adults, it's most often sex and sex boils down to power over another person. Strip away the emotions and the hormones and fuzzy wuzzys and really, that's all it is. Gratification of the ego by gaining intimate acceptance by another person, they accept you, they give up some of their power to you. Once a person has obtained this outlook on sex and social exchanges, it's next to impossible to see it any other way. Once you strip away the facade of social niceties and the masquerade of expected behaviours, one feels little inclination to join in on the dance. 


So it is not as simple as "care vs don't care". Far from it. People have many experiences that shape their views and personalities and it's futile to try to label every facet of such a complex problem.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

humanbecoming said:


> I truly do not believe that in many cases it is a matter of lying. Often the "new" relationship doesn't have the hurdles that the mature relationship has. The difference is, that a HD person looks for ways to satisfy their drive DESPITE the hurdles, where the LD person uses those hurdles as reasons/excuses to not have sex.
> 
> The HD person may be able to get the LD person to participate in many instances, but to a true HD person, the difference between participatory sex, and what the HD person desires, is the difference between a McDonalds hamburger patty, and a fine steak.


You nailed it on that last comment.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lady, I really enjoy hearing your perspective. You have a unique view.

Unfortunately, your stance is so far off from normal female experience, it is somewhat detrimental to some of the readers here.

I still think you might have Asperger's.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I like how you observe how I broke LD down into categories. That's what we observe it is here.
> 
> There are LD who may not have a drive of their own, but wouldn't even want to please their spouse if they did, because it's not in them. They don't think they should have to please their spouse, and it may be a cyclical thing that causes them to be LD.
> 
> ...


good points!

I like this way of breaking down the concept of LD-ness into sub-groups.

I am not a philosopher, but this grouping of is something I could relate with.... it's just like computer overheat, there are so many causes.. whether CPU too fast for its motherboard.. or cooling fan not enough to pull the heat away from the CPU... or lack of good ventilation grate causing the internal casing to conserve too much heat.. Repairpersons must know exactly which problem is causing the heat, and deal with it accordingly..

Same thing with LDness... we need to determine which LD is occuring, to determine what is the best step to remedy the situation.

I am LD, I don't need daily or even weekly sex... but I love my wife, and I have the policy of never rejecting her everytime she ask for sex.. I don't want to be selfish.... But I admit that there are selfish LDs, not all LD is like me..


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Lady, I really enjoy hearing your perspective. You have a unique view.
> 
> Unfortunately, your stance is so far off from normal female experience, it is somewhat detrimental to some of the readers here.
> 
> I still think you might have Asperger's.


I believe LadyOfTheLake contribution is important. It's another view point and it's not uncommon. It happens in men and women.

Until I got tortured through a brutal affair and being treated worse than a dog, by far through the situation that brought me into websights like this, I had some oversights and some taking for granted I was doing as a man, myself.

For example, as a man you pay the bills, you cut the grass, you do a few chores and the man things like fixing cars, etc. You love and desire your wife, and you look at her as the prime interest of your affections and you have your sex and make sure she orgasms, etc.

But you never really considered her emotional needs. You never realized how important that was. You never realized how much of a different it would make if you remained attractive to her, outside of being a pretty dependable husband and life partner, how it will make her feel, to really want you inside of her more often.

You never considered how important those holidays where, you just figured it was a nother day of the year designed to drain money from you. You never really, realized how important time was, and when you occasionally forget things, that it makes her feel like you don't listen to her or prioritize her.

It never all hit me, until I got into a relationship that took it away from me. The ex abused me intentionally on all of these points, until it stuck.

So with the current situation, you are 99.9% dependable, your remember everything she says, you consider her viewpoint, consider how your words and actions affect her psyche, you consider more how you affect her, you plan holidays, you give small gifts and notes to continually let her know how much you care for and appreciate her. You don't push her, too often, because it creates resentment, and you don't lie much if at all because you also know this creates resentment and lack of trust.

So your greatly dependable, but you need to raise your alpha-ness up a bit, be a bit more distant and worldly attractive, and then your good.

Isn't it something? Thats where I am now. Thanks to a failed marriage and an abusive relationship, I have been molded into a great, loving and supportive relationship partner.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I do agree that Lady's contribution is enlightening. But she has agreed herself that it is likely she has Asperger's. And due to this (in my assumption), many of her views are not common. I think this is an important distinction to make.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I do agree that Lady's contribution is enlightening. But she has agreed herself that it is likely she has Asperger's. And due to this (in my assumption), many of her views are not common. I think this is an important distinction to make.


It's possible. 

Also would be interested to have the view points of strong narcissist, people in positions of high levels of authority, people who were super promiscous before getting into marriage or a long term relationship, and don't see any reason to put all that energy into their spouse when they can just go anywhere else, it's interesting to see all the different views.

In closing, I did want to say it's good to have all this information, but we must be cautious not to over analyze and just LIVE. Thats a hard part.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Please explain this to me??? In some relationship with HD-LD they battle one another over sex. LD usually controls the events,the amounts,The levels,The intensity,now in a case where there is no battle.There is just no interest for sex.My LD wife does not require sex to make her day complete.Its just not something she needs.There really is no battle for it.She will give it up usually .But she could care less.Never puts out any form of effort for it.But on the other hand tells me how much she loves me.
Like today I wake up roll over. I kiss a little,Hug a little,She saids lets get this over with I what to sleep in.She drops her panties and says lets get it.I set there and steer at the wall and think to myself how degrading is this.But this is the way it is.She saids if you want it you better get over here cause I want to get back to sleep.So I do it .Yes I could of turn her down.But this is all thats available to me in the sex dept. with her.I have never treated her like a piece of meat .But thats really what she is. Just a sperm bank.Just hurry up and do your deal she saids.I drive to work thinking should I be happy I just got laid or do I once again feel like I begged or a leach. Not a good feeling. Now I have to wait a week to do it again.Thats all I get.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Just Wondering said:


> Please explain this to me??? In some relationship with HD-LD they battle one another over sex. LD usually controls the events,the amounts,The levels,The intensity,now in a case where there is no battle.There is just no interest for sex.My LD wife does not require sex to make her day complete.Its just not something she needs.There really is no battle for it.She will give it up usually .But she could care less.Never puts out any form of effort for it.But on the other hand tells me how much she loves me.
> Like today I wake up roll over. I kiss a little,Hug a little,She saids lets get this over with I what to sleep in.She drops her panties and says lets get it.I set there and steer at the wall and think to myself how degrading is this.But this is the way it is.She saids if you want it you better get over here cause I want to get back to sleep.So I do it .Yes I could of turn her down.But this is all thats available to me in the sex dept. with her.I have never treated her like a piece of meat .But thats really what she is. Just a sperm bank.Just hurry up and do your deal she saids.I drive to work thinking should I be happy I just got laid or do I once again feel like I begged or a leach. Not a good feeling. Now I have to wait a week to do it again.Thats all I get.


LOL.

"Get in, get out and get it over with", lost my erection. It was not said in a kind tone at all! This in my past.

I'd take scraps like yours versus jagging off in the corner. You see, your wife is caring for you in a way she knows how, and as long as she's agreeing that it's not mental anguish for her, this is how you do it.

What you need to do is determine if you can get her to come more your way, where she desires it? What buttons and events, and senses have to be stimulated to make her warm, to make her lusty, to make her wet?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Just Wondering....why are you still there?

That's the thing. If a spouse is still there day after day (even a spouse in a sexless marriage), that spouse is making the CHOICE to be there day after day. It is your choice what you want to do with your life. All the excuses in the world about:

*kids

*money

*but I "love him/her"

....really make no difference to the bottom line. 

If you don't like the terms of your marriage, and if you have already tried to make it better (and by that I mean, made a sincere effort for a long period of time, including MC), they why "blame" those above excuses for staying?

If you choose to stay in circumstances that are not of your liking, you need to still remember it is your CHOICE to stay.

Many people come to places like TAM hoping someone will tell them that they are "right" in their marriage difficulties and that their spouse should "change". They also hope someone will give them a magic bullett to make their spouse "change".

All of these hopes are really just ways of saying "I'm not actually going to leave, I'm just going to stay here and be bitter about it".

The only power any married person has is the power to leave.

While that might sound sad, when you really understand it, it is NOT sad.

In fact, it is something rather beautiful, like when Dorothy finds out she had the power to go home at any time during her journey. It was all just smoke and mirrors.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> It is the only way I understand relations between men and women. Well, between all humans, really. I feel that everything boils down to exchanges in power.


Interesting. I somewhat share your point of view, though I don't use the word power. I tend to view it as just exchanges, and what the exchange is varies from situation to situation. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Men wanted in my pants from a very early age, too. I knew it instinctively. Yes, women in my life warned me to be wary. I didn't care, I was eager to have sex, I and knew that a man's natural urges were the same natural urges that made me wet my pants.
> 
> Same story, different woman, different interpretation.
> 
> ...


Please dedicate your mind to science when you pass on, so maybe scientist can figure out what switch is on in your mind. 

Thank you,

Sincerely,

All non-gay men.



humanbecoming said:


> Spot on. It isn't often that someone here breaks down LD into different categories,, but I completely agree with you here. When we see the term LD, we are often led to immediately think the LD partner is either uncaring, cold, or other wise emotionally manipulative. I don't believe that is the case. It is certainly possible for a person to be caring, love their partner, and have a good life with them, yet not have a high physical desire for full sexual activity.
> 
> IMO, that kind of dynamic is far worse for the HD spouse, as it's harder to deal with. How can a reasonable person ask of someone whom they love, and who honestly loves and cares for them and shows it, for that person to become what they are not?
> 
> ...


Great post.

My only point I'd like to add regarding the LD spouse is that there should be a goal of both spouses to fulfill each others needs and wants. That really is the standard for a great marriage. If your partner wants it, do what you can to give it, as long as it doesn't compromise you, or something that you feel is completely wrong.

I'm not saying a LD person has to just give up sex because the HD person wants it. Far from it. But there should be an expectation that the LD person tries to work on their libido and finding out what works for them. 

It comes back to the "LazyD" post Treyvion made. If you care about your spouse, you'll make every effort to raise your libido to match his/her libido. You might not be able to do it, but you explore every avenue, you look at everything you can, you try. If you just can't get your libido up, then you can't, but your spouse will be much more satisfied in knowing you have, and will continue to try, rather than getting turned down for 1,400th time because you're "just not in the mood."

Unless it's something illegal, moralely wrong, or just flat out something you find undoable (anal sex as an example) we as spouses owe to our better half's to try and give them everything they want, whether that's flowers and cards, vacations and children, a new house, a better career, whatever. There's no reason that effort should stop at the bedroom door.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Just Wondering....why are you still there?
> 
> That's the thing. If a spouse is still there day after day (even a spouse in a sexless marriage), that spouse is making the CHOICE to be there day after day. It is your choice what you want to do with your life. All the excuses in the world about:
> 
> ...


But that is YOUR view on marriage. It is popular today to view marriages as temporary or disposable but some people don't. I don't. I'm a lifer. Short of infidelity or serious physical abuse, this is it. I'm in for life. I made that commitment and there is no turning back or changing my mind.

Sex is just on small facet of a marriage. Life goes on without it. I really do think people make far too much fuss over it and give it too much power over their lives. When you married your spouse you vowed *forever*. For better or worse. Till death. Not till you decide you have "needs" and it's time to move on. It is disappointing when I read here how many people advocate leaving a marriage over such trivial things. Don't people hold themselves to their word of honour?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Sex is just on small facet of a marriage."


If I was LD, I would feel the same.

I'm sorry but whether I'm single or married, sex is very important to me and it always has been.

You can try to paint what I'm saying as if I am saying marriages are disposable if you like. Matters none to me.

Sex IS important, to people who are HD. You can argue that but you can't make it not true.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ps....Sex and finances are the two biggest reasons for divorce.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

I'm a child of divorce. I know I don't want that in my life. I told DH when we married that I don't believe in divorce and that if he married me, it would be for life. He agreed. I said the only way out was through cheating or beating me. If he cheated on me I'd make his life hell and if he beat me I'd kill him.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I am also a child of divorce. (In fact I am the poster child of divorce).

My first huband and my current husband were both divorced when I met them.

I have been divorced once, and I hope never again.

Your point?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> But that is YOUR view on marriage. It is popular today to view marriages as temporary or disposable but some people don't. I don't. I'm a lifer. Short of infidelity or serious physical abuse, this is it. I'm in for life. I made that commitment and there is no turning back or changing my mind.
> 
> Sex is just on small facet of a marriage. Life goes on without it. I really do think people make far too much fuss over it and give it too much power over their lives. When you married your spouse you vowed *forever*. For better or worse. Till death. Not till you decide you have "needs" and it's time to move on. It is disappointing when I read here how many people advocate leaving a marriage over such trivial things. Don't people hold themselves to their word of honour?


Would you have gotten married to your husband if he had told you there would be no sex in the marriage (for whatever reason)?


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

My point is that for a site that is about marriage and fixing relationships, a lot the time, the advice people get is "divorce". And that is disappointing, that people hold marriage so cheaply. I'm not attacking anyone in particular as I don't know the specifics of anyone's individual marriages. I'm just saying in response to your "why are you still there?" question that some people hold themselves responsible to their vows, regardless of what happens in their life. That is why they stay in what outsiders may think are crappy marriages. They are honoring the commitment they made, and I respect them for that.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Would you have gotten married to your husband if he had told you there would be no sex in the marriage (for whatever reason)?


Yes. Without reservation. Happily.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"And that is disappointing, that people hold marriage so cheaply."


That is simply your view as an LD person. If you were HD, you would not hold the same view.

Two LD people married to each other can be very happy together. So to SOME people, sex is not that important.

For those to whom sex *IS* important, nothing you, an LD woman, can say, will make any difference. You can't feel the way they feel, just like they can't feel the way you feel.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> My point is that for a site that is about marriage and fixing relationships, a lot the time, the advice people get is "divorce". And that is disappointing, that people hold marriage so cheaply. I'm not attacking anyone in particular as I don't know the specifics of anyone's individual marriages. I'm just saying in response to your "why are you still there?" question that some people hold themselves responsible to their vows, regardless of what happens in their life. That is why they stay in what outsiders may think are crappy marriages. They are honoring the commitment they made, and I respect them for that.


I try not to advise divorce very often, even in cases of adultery, but I have on occassion.

I think the reason you see it so prevelently here is because people are either A) already on this site because they have a big problem in their marriage. People don't usually come here to brag about their sex life/marriage B) People like to advise what they'd do in that situation, even if they actually wouldn't do it if they actually were in that situation. It's easy to see a post about a husband cheating on his wife and say "divorce him" but another to actually be in that situation and to look into your kids eyes and explain to them why you're getting divorced, sell your house, move out, maybe change jobs and towns, etc. 

Having lived a divorce, I think hard about it before I ever recommend divorce and usually only do so in cases where there is longstanding physical and emotional abuse that has been ongoing for years, or repeated cases of adultery spanning sometimes decades.

I don;t even recommend seperateion most of the time in cases of engagement, for the same reasons. Postpone, but not seperate unless you are absolutely sure.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Please take note of this part of my previous post: "*and if you have already tried to make it better (and by that I mean, made a sincere effort for a long period of time, including MC*),"

I don't come out of the gate screaming "leave him/her!"

I agree that a sincere effort to fix things should be made. And a truly sincere effort could take years.

But when you get to the point of "sincere effort was made, things are no different, I am miserable and basically hate my spouse, but I'm staying for FITB reason", that's when I'm saying, why keep asking what your options are? You don't have any at that point, except the option to leave.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

You asked why would I stay in a marriage like this.I once said on this forum my marriage was perfect except for the sex.And I got hammered with people saying then I didn't have a great marriage.I come here to learn,understand,experience other views. I have come a long way since .Today I have improved my psyical relationship from where it was to where it is today.And one person's floor is another person's ceiling.Its still a POS. but it is better then it was.So its easy to always want more.Meaning Here I am complaining about the mental part of it .Not meeting my emotional needs in sex.But the psyical needs have improved.What I really want is true balance,Harmony,So its a start.There has been times where I have turn down sex because I knew she was giving me duty sex.Only later to regett taking the ride.Sometimes I feel I am trying to fix something that is badly broken and can't be fixedl


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

tulsy said:


> Well, it's really up to a woman to deal with that. At some point you have to grow up. You're married now with a husband who has needs...and by getting married you agreed to fulfill his needs in this area (and he your needs), and that was the deal, so you could forsake all others.
> 
> I feel sorry for these husbands. Married to someone who "want marriage because they want kids and the other advantages", just not sex.


Totally agree. 

You don't want to have sex but you want kids? Adopt and stay single. Marriage = sex. Period. You can't expect someone to remain sexually faithful if you're not willing to have sex with them. That's called a trap. And it's wrong.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> But that is YOUR view on marriage. It is popular today to view marriages as temporary or disposable but some people don't. I don't. I'm a lifer. Short of infidelity or serious physical abuse, this is it. I'm in for life. I made that commitment and there is no turning back or changing my mind.
> 
> Sex is just on small facet of a marriage. Life goes on without it. I really do think people make far too much fuss over it and give it too much power over their lives. When you married your spouse you vowed *forever*. For better or worse. Till death. Not till you decide you have "needs" and it's time to move on. It is disappointing when I read here how many people advocate leaving a marriage over such trivial things. Don't people hold themselves to their word of honour?


Yes, I vowed for better or for worse. Til death. 

But I also vowed to cherish and love my husband, and he vowed to cherish and love me. We're not just two people living individual lives side by side. We're living our lives _together_. I gave up my freedom to screw whomever I choose when I said "I do", so he damn well better make sure I'm sexually satisfied. I did NOT marry to be celibate and, most people I think, if they knew they would be sexless down the road with the person they're marrying at the alter, would high-tail it out of there. I know I would have. 

See, sex _isn't_ a trivial thing for everyone. For many it is what separates marriage from all other relationships. For many it _is_ a need. For many romantic love can't exist without sexual desire. For many a marriage is over if there is no longer a sexual relationship, regardless of how great of friends they are. I'm happy my husband and I are best friends, but I didn't marry him to be his friend. I married him so I could f--- his brains out whenever I wanted. 

For some of us, sex really _does_ matter A LOT.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I couldn't live happily in a marriage where my husband was physically and mentally capable of having sex with me, and chose not to. It would be breaking his marriage vows. I would feel abandoned, cheated and deceived. If he refused to change or acknowledge my need for intimacy, I'd leave him. Call it shallow if you want, but it's what I would do.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I didn't marry him to be his friend. I married him so I could f--- his brains out whenever I wanted.


When you get around to writing that book you were talking about C2W, there's your title. Guaranteed best seller.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> But when you get to the point of "sincere effort was made, things are no different, I am miserable and basically hate my spouse, but I'm staying for FITB reason", that's when I'm saying, why keep asking what your options are? You don't have any at that point, except the option to leave.


We often refer to following the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. I look at a marriage like the one you describe above as following the letter of marriage. Technically you're not divorced and you still live together but you're no longer following the true spirit of marriage. 

I suppose a person can play the martyr and stay in a miserable situation. I have to wonder though wouldn't the "honourable" thing to do be to set your spouse free to find real love not just a sham of it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"I have to wonder though wouldn't the "honourable" thing to do be to set your spouse free to find real love not just a sham of it."


Yes, this.

It is actually a loving thing to do to release a spouse who you are bitter toward and who you will never share a loving and sexual relationship with.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

I think the HD compromises more because you can't force someone to have sex. Sure, you can ask, beg and plead, but that does nothing if they don't want any type of sexual contact.

The best thing to do is to TRY and find someone compatible with your drive and sexual needs so you can have a mutually-beneficial sexual relationship. Unfortunately, there are those that change RIGHT after marriage from HD to LD. My wife is kind of like that. Before we got married, we did it all the time, and now, all she wants to do is lay around and talk about work.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

coupdegrace said:


> I think the HD compromises more because you can't force someone to have sex. Sure, you can ask, beg and plead, but that does nothing if they don't want any type of sexual contact.
> 
> The best thing to do is to TRY and find someone compatible with your drive and sexual needs so you can have a mutually-beneficial sexual relationship. Unfortunately, there are those that change RIGHT after marriage from HD to LD. My wife is kind of like that. Before we got married, we did it all the time, and now, all she wants to do is lay around and talk about work.


Weren't many on a similar sex drive before marriage or before knowing they had you, and then they switch it to LD? Some have to feel they are in the hunt to desire it.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> I don't think you can fit people into boxes with labels.
> 
> Now this describes my case a bit better. I view all human interactions as basically transactions and the currency is sex or power. As adults, it's most often sex and sex boils down to power over another person. Strip away the emotions and the hormones and fuzzy wuzzys and really, that's all it is. Gratification of the ego by gaining intimate acceptance by another person, they accept you, they give up some of their power to you. Once a person has obtained this outlook on sex and social exchanges, it's next to impossible to see it any other way. Once you strip away the facade of social niceties and the masquerade of expected behaviours, one feels little inclination to join in on the dance.


Wow, I feel sorry for you. Your statement presumes a zero sum game that sex is an exchange in which "power" is transferred from one participant to the other. A winner and a loser. How sad. Can you not see sex as a net gain experience, where each participant gains and no one loses?

IMHO your whole premise is flawed. Your life would be much richer if you took another look at how you evaluate human interactions of all kinds.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

KanDo said:


> Wow, I feel sorry for you. Your statement presumes a zero sum game that sex is an exchange in which "power" is transferred from one participant to the other. A winner and a loser. How sad. Can you not see sex as a net gain experience, where each participant gains and no one loses?
> 
> IMHO your whole premise is flawed. Your life would be much richer if you took another look at how you evaluate human interactions of all kinds.


No, I think I have the right of it. Emotions create the impetus to engage in all sorts of behaviours, and emotions are the payoff. But emotions don't really exist. They are ephemeral, intangible and insignificant.The are simply the result of chemical ****tails secreted by various glands in the body. The brain registers these chemicals as what we call emotions. When disregarded as meaningless chemical reactions, one can uncover the true motivations in human interactions. Saying everything is a power play is over simplifying it, but I'm not writing out a discourse or thesis here. 

Humans are so blinded by their dependency on emotions. It's like they are all addicted the the chemicals that create them and will engage in any kind of behaviour just to get the feelings they desire. Yet, it's wrong when a heroin or cocaine addict does the same? It's okay to engage in strange or dangerous or stupid actions to get a dopamine or oxytocin hit, but not okay to do the same to get a meth or crack hit? Which is funny, because all of THOSE addictions are just dopamine addictions in disguise as well, LOL. 

Anyway, that was just a bit of a tangent. Disregard at will.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

KanDo said:


> Wow, I feel sorry for you. Your statement presumes a zero sum game that sex is an exchange in which "power" is transferred from one participant to the other. A winner and a loser. How sad. Can you not see sex as a net gain experience, where each participant gains and no one loses?
> 
> IMHO your whole premise is flawed. Your life would be much richer if you took another look at how you evaluate human interactions of all kinds.


LadyOfTheLake,

Can you see a relationship is a third entity where each of you are in it, and if you please each other and take care of each other, that you are building the "power" in this third entity? Your relationship?

Relationships truly can be a win-win, but if people are focused on a win-lose - then that's what it will be and there will be a "user" who is trying to give as little as possible to nothing to get what they want.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> No, I think I have the right of it. Emotions create the impetus to engage in all sorts of behaviours, and emotions are the payoff. But emotions don't really exist. They are ephemeral, intangible and insignificant.The are simply the result of chemical ****tails secreted by various glands in the body. The brain registers these chemicals as what we call emotions. When disregarded as meaningless chemical reactions, one can uncover the true motivations in human interactions. Saying everything is a power play is over simplifying it, but I'm not writing out a discourse or thesis here.
> 
> Humans are so blinded by their dependency on emotions. It's like they are all addicted the the chemicals that create them and will engage in any kind of behaviour just to get the feelings they desire. Yet, it's wrong when a heroin or cocaine addict does the same? It's okay to engage in strange or dangerous or stupid actions to get a dopamine or oxytocin hit, but not okay to do the same to get a meth or crack hit? Which is funny, because all of THOSE addictions are just dopamine addictions in disguise as well, LOL.
> 
> Anyway, that was just a bit of a tangent. Disregard at will.


Emotions are emotions, plain and simple. You can say they are nothing but the chemicals that create them, but they are still what theya re. We don't label water as hydrogen and oxygen and say that's all it is. It's water. There's no need to dumb down what emotions are.

And yes, we are addicted to the chemicals our body produces, because we have only surficial control on those chemicals. What causes our anger or happiness for example is stimulated by so much chemical reaction and long-term training that we are unknowingly limited in how much we can actually control them. Your own words, typed above, are influenced by these very chemicals, flowing through your brain.

As for the herione or cocaine addict statement, it is flawed.

Firstly, people aren't punished for using these drugs because they are 'wrong.' Rather these drugs are banned because they are harmful to use. If the government wasn't so busy getting their coffers filled by tobacco and liquor sales, they'd likely ban those as well.

Secondly, cocaine and heroine are foreign substances to the body. We can't control the chemicals in our body that our body produces naturally, but we can control what goes into our body. That's a significant difference.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> No, I think I have the right of it. Emotions create the impetus to engage in all sorts of behaviours, and emotions are the payoff. But emotions don't really exist. They are ephemeral, intangible and insignificant.The are simply the result of chemical ****tails secreted by various glands in the body. The brain registers these chemicals as what we call emotions. When disregarded as meaningless chemical reactions, one can uncover the true motivations in human interactions. Saying everything is a power play is over simplifying it, but I'm not writing out a discourse or thesis here.
> 
> Humans are so blinded by their dependency on emotions. It's like they are all addicted the the chemicals that create them and will engage in any kind of behaviour just to get the feelings they desire. Yet, it's wrong when a heroin or cocaine addict does the same? It's okay to engage in strange or dangerous or stupid actions to get a dopamine or oxytocin hit, but not okay to do the same to get a meth or crack hit? Which is funny, because all of THOSE addictions are just dopamine addictions in disguise as well, LOL.
> 
> Anyway, that was just a bit of a tangent. Disregard at will.


Are you comparing the beauty of love to the highs of being a meth addict? Love fulfills and enhanced our lives, how can that be compared to drugs that destroy people physically and mentally?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

KanDo said:


> Wow, I feel sorry for you. Your statement presumes a zero sum game that sex is an exchange in which "power" is transferred from one participant to the other. A winner and a loser. How sad. Can you not see sex as a net gain experience, where each participant gains and no one loses?
> 
> IMHO your whole premise is flawed. Your life would be much richer if you took another look at how you evaluate human interactions of all kinds.


I don't think it presumes a zero sum game. It's like buying something at the store. I get the product and the store gets my money. Obviously I feel like whatever I'm buying is more valuable than the money I'm paying to get it (or I likely wouldn't be getting it) while the store feels my money is more valuable than holding onto the item. So we both gain in that exchange.

As I said earlier, I wouldn't use the word power like LOTL does, but it's still an exchange but doesn't mean that one side wins and one loses.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I don't think it presumes a zero sum game. It's like buying something at the store. I get the product and the store gets my money. Obviously I feel like whatever I'm buying is more valuable than the money I'm paying to get it (or I likely wouldn't be getting it) while the store feels my money is more valuable than holding onto the item. So we both gain in that exchange.
> 
> As I said earlier, I wouldn't use the word power like LOTL does, but it's still an exchange but doesn't mean that one side wins and one loses.


But in the case of sex being something two people give each other it is a zero sum game, unlike the store example which is a transaction.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> I don't think it presumes a zero sum game. It's like buying something at the store. I get the product and the store gets my money. Obviously I feel like whatever I'm buying is more valuable than the money I'm paying to get it (or I likely wouldn't be getting it) while the store feels my money is more valuable than holding onto the item. So we both gain in that exchange.
> 
> As I said earlier, I wouldn't use the word power like LOTL does, but it's still an exchange but doesn't mean that one side wins and one loses.


In many of these "power view" types, there will always be a winner and a loser, and if you "love" them and don't want to do anything to "hurt" them, you will be like an oil well, who is pumped into their prescious resources are completely depleted.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Holland said:


> But in the case of sex being something two people give each other it is a zero sum game, unlike the store example which is a transaction.


The "power view" person doesn't normally look at it this way. They look at it as someone is "taking" and someone is "giving" something. Not that they share something and both end up better off as a result.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Holland said:


> But in the case of sex being something two people give each other *it is a zero sum game*, unlike the store example which is a transaction.


How so? Assuming we are talking about a normal couple here and not a couple in which one spouse dislikes the other or dislikes sex, then it's win-win. I don't think my relationship is abnormal, and when we are finished having sex we are both in a better mood and spirit than we were in before sex. How is that a net zero when both people are in a better place after?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lady...the feeling of having power would be just a chemical reaction, too, in your model. You don't actually have any power, you just feel a chemical rush that feels powerful.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Our brains produce the chemicals that cause us to feel certain ways for a reason. Without them, we wouldn't be able to relate to the people around us. We wouldn't know empathy, sympathy, love, forgiveness, disappointment, excitement, anger, hurt...our emotions are there to help us realize when something is wrong. Without them, people could use us, walk all over us, beat us, and we wouldn't actually know the difference because we wouldn't feel anything. 

Our emotions are SO much more than mere chemicals. Like kingsfan said, water isn't "just" hydrogen and oxygen...it's made up of those things, but we still need it to live.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> No, I think I have the right of it. Emotions create the impetus to engage in all sorts of behaviours, and emotions are the payoff. But emotions don't really exist. They are ephemeral, intangible and insignificant.The are simply the result of chemical ****tails secreted by various glands in the body. The brain registers these chemicals as what we call emotions. When disregarded as meaningless chemical reactions, one can uncover the true motivations in human interactions. Saying everything is a power play is over simplifying it, but I'm not writing out a discourse or thesis here.
> 
> Humans are so blinded by their dependency on emotions. It's like they are all addicted the the chemicals that create them and will engage in any kind of behaviour just to get the feelings they desire. Yet, it's wrong when a heroin or cocaine addict does the same? It's okay to engage in strange or dangerous or stupid actions to get a dopamine or oxytocin hit, but not okay to do the same to get a meth or crack hit? Which is funny, because all of THOSE addictions are just dopamine addictions in disguise as well, LOL.
> 
> Anyway, that was just a bit of a tangent. Disregard at will.


The fact that emotions have chemical origins or mechanisms doesn't make them unreal! By that logic, building a building is unreal because chemical reaction allow the workers to move ther bodies and chemical reactions are the source of energy that powers the heavy machinery. Taking you at your word, the enjoyment of music is an illusion the pleasure of a fine meal is nothing but a fantasy and the passion of new discovery is valueless drivel. Again, I am sorry for you and your perspective on life. I think you are probably missing out on what most people value most highly.



> I don't think it presumes a zero sum game. It's like buying something at the store. I get the product and the store gets my money. Obviously I feel like whatever I'm buying is more valuable than the money I'm paying to get it (or I likely wouldn't be getting it) while the store feels my money is more valuable than holding onto the item. So we both gain in that exchange.
> 
> As I said earlier, I wouldn't use the word power like LOTL does, but it's still an exchange but doesn't mean that one side wins and one loses.


I was referring to LOL in my discussion above. However, I think your characterization of the sex transaction does not portray what LOL has stated You are describing a net gain transaction where the total utility of the "universe" has been increased by the transaction. 

Just my opinion.......


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Emotions are emotions, plain and simple. You can say they are nothing but the chemicals that create them, but they are still what theya re. We don't label water as hydrogen and oxygen and say that's all it is. It's water. There's no need to dumb down what emotions are.


We call water H2O all the time. We know it is two Hydrogen atoms bonded to one Oxygen atom. That is it's basic structure. We know what it has life sustaining properties due to that structure. There is no mystery, no woo, about water. It is what it is. 

Emotions are simple chemical reactions. They can be reproduced in a lab. We can make rats feel happy and sad at the push of a button. We can make people happy with the pop of a pill. It is all chemicals. We understand how the reactions occur, I suppose there may be some debate as to why. Why do we feel emotions? What is the point? As I stated earlier, they are the impetus for certain behaviours. Both the cause, and the payoff. Cause and effect. One set of chemicals causes you to feel X emotion, urging Y behaviour, resulting in the release of another set of chemicals causing Z emotion. Now say Emotion X is lust, Behaviour Y is sex and Emotion Z is satiation. Human biology has just performed an act of reproduction, all through a rewards system based on chemicals. 



> As for the herione or cocaine addict statement, it is flawed.
> 
> Secondly, cocaine and heroine are foreign substances to the body. We can't control the chemicals in our body that our body produces naturally, but we can control what goes into our body. That's a significant difference.



Moral and legal obstacles aside, illicit drugs are just a way to cheat the system. Get the chemical reward the brain craves, without doing the work. And the drugs can trigger much stronger chemical rewards than normal human behaviour can, hence the addictive nature of them. 

So instead of doing whatever social construct a person would have to do to get a dopamine fix, a person takes a hit of heroin. The heroin causes dopamine levels to skyrocket, inducing the feeling of euphoria and pleasure that the user craves so badly. 

Emotions also give us feelings of pleasure as rewards for good behaviours. Behaviours that are beneficial to ourselves, our biology, and our society. We get negative feelings for negative actions.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Lady...the feeling of having power would be just a chemical reaction, too, in your model. You don't actually have any power, you just feel a chemical rush that feels powerful.


Ah but the "power" part of my model is not an emotion. That comes from an analysis of the situation. If one person has a need, and another person has to fill that need, then the person filling the need is the person with the power in that transaction. Not necessarily in the whole relationship, if the two parties are in one. Just as if I go to the Dr with a problem....the Dr has the power in that transaction. If I go to buy a TV from a big box store, I have the power in that transaction. Every encounter between humans has some sort of paradigm where someone is getting a need met. Otherwise we'd all stay home and never interact. 

Now just because I am aware of how the engine in the car of society runs, doesn't mean I don't drive the car. It just means that there is no mystery to me under the hood. I understand how all the bits and pieces work together, appreciate it for what it is.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> How so? Assuming we are talking about a normal couple here and not a couple in which one spouse dislikes the other or dislikes sex, then it's win-win. I don't think my relationship is abnormal, and when we are finished having sex we are both in a better mood and spirit than we were in before sex. How is that a net zero when both people are in a better place after?


Sorry KF my interpretation of zero sum game was an equal result, no win/lose. So I think we are essentially saying the same thing win/win.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"If one person has a need, and another person has to fill that need, then the person filling the need is the person with the power in that transaction."

Yet the only reason anyone would fill anyone else's need, is by knowing they have the need, which is emotion based.

Again, no power exists. Just the emotions that feel powerful.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

KanDo said:


> The fact that emotions have chemical origins or mechanisms doesn't make them unreal!
> 
> Just my opinion.......


But are they real? Your emotions do not exist anywhere outside of the limits of your body. They are totally intangible. They cannot exist without very specified chemicals reacting in very certain ways. Is the chemical reaction a catalyst for creating emotion or is the reaction itself the emotion? Are emotions something independent of the reaction causing them? As in, can a scientist trigger strong emotions of love and attachment using synthetic chemicals in a human? I would imagine so. So are those emotions real? They essentially came out of a bottle. 

I'm not saying that emotions aren't important or should be totally disregarded. They are nice to have and do have their uses in regulating behaviours. I just think people take them much too seriously and don't comprehend the transiency of them when making important life choices. It would be nice if humans were more adept at controlling and limiting their emotions, IMO.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> We call water H2O all the time. We know it is two Hydrogen atoms bonded to one Oxygen atom. That is it's basic structure. We know what it has life sustaining properties due to that structure. There is no mystery, no woo, about water. It is what it is.


Just like water is a result of hydrogen and oxygen, so is emotion a result of chemicals. It is what it is, no need to dumby down what an emotion is.



LadyOfTheLake said:


> Emotions are simple chemical reactions. They can be reproduced in a lab. We can make rats feel happy and sad at the push of a button. We can make people happy with the pop of a pill. It is all chemicals. We understand how the reactions occur, I suppose there may be some debate as to why. Why do we feel emotions? What is the point? As I stated earlier, they are the impetus for certain behaviours. Both the cause, and the payoff. Cause and effect. One set of chemicals causes you to feel X emotion, urging Y behaviour, resulting in the release of another set of chemicals causing Z emotion. Now say Emotion X is lust, Behaviour Y is sex and Emotion Z is satiation. Human biology has just performed an act of reproduction, all through a rewards system based on chemicals.


Once again, we know what they are, but they are still emotions. No need to dumby them down. The sum is what we are interested in, not the parts. 



LadyOfTheLake said:


> Moral and legal obstacles aside, illicit drugs are just a way to cheat the system.


You asked why is it so wrong. I answered why. Discussing how it 'cheats the system' is off the topic you brought up about drugs being 'wrong'. We all understand why someone takes heroin.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> Ah but the "power" part of my model is not an emotion. That comes from an analysis of the situation.


This is flawed logic if you use your principal of emotions not being real.

What are you basing your analysis on? Likely, your own knowledge. 

Where was your knowledge derived from? What you have learned in your lifetime.

What have you learned? Most likely, primarily things that interest you. For example if you don't find architecture interesting, you likely don't know much about it or have much basis for an analysis of it, but if you love sports, you would likely have a greater background and support for your analysis of a sports topic.

Where do you get your interests from? Things that stimulate you. And what stimulates you is nothing more than a chemical reaction in your mind. You said it yourself.

So really, your analysis that isn't founded by emotion stems from a path you took directed entirely by the very same chemicals that guide you towards emotional development. Your analysis is founded in emotion, or rather in chemical interactions causing you to form a particular opinion.

When you break it down, you 'analysis' is nothing more than a chemical ****tail of its own.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> But are they real? Your emotions do not exist anywhere outside of the limits of your body. They are totally intangible. They cannot exist without very specified chemicals reacting in very certain ways. Is the chemical reaction a catalyst for creating emotion or is the reaction itself the emotion? Are emotions something independent of the reaction causing them? As in, can a scientist trigger strong emotions of love and attachment using synthetic chemicals in a human? I would imagine so. So are those emotions real? They essentially came out of a bottle.
> 
> I'm not saying that emotions aren't important or should be totally disregarded. They are nice to have and do have their uses in regulating behaviours. I just think people take them much too seriously and don't comprehend the transiency of them when making important life choices. *It would be nice if humans were more adept at controlling and limiting their emotions, IMO*.


If emotions are based entirely off the chemicals our own body produces on its own, how can we control them?

Conversely, if we can control them, are they created entirely by the chemicals our body produces, or wouldn't it be fair to say there is more to our emotions than that?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lady, your answers here are part of the reasons you likely have Asperger's.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> This is flawed logic if you use your principal of emotions not being real.
> 
> What are you basing your analysis on? Likely, your own knowledge.
> 
> ...


Actually, much of my rhetoric is inspired by thinkers on sites like this one Dopamine addiction | TheDopamineProject.org


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> If emotions are based entirely off the chemicals our own body produces on its own, how can we control them?
> 
> Conversely, if we can control them, are they created entirely by the chemicals our body produces, or wouldn't it be fair to say there is more to our emotions than that?


I suppose you are right, I should phrase that differently. It is entirely possible, and quite admirable, to control one's _emotional_ responses. By recognizing emotions for what they are, one does not give them any power in one's life or power to affect other people.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I don't believe in HD or LD unless you are talking about cholesterol.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> Actually, much of my rhetoric is inspired by thinkers on sites like this one Dopamine addiction | TheDopamineProject.org


Where you got your info has nothing to do with what I said.

I said your 'analysis' is driven on a root level by your chemical responses which form your emotions according to your logic you posted above. Where you get your information is simply a by-product of chemical responses in your brain which were done moments, minutes, hours, days, weeks, or even years ago. 

Essentially, your analysis of 'power' is nothing more than a long-term result of chemical responses in your brain, and to then say that your opinion of power isn't influenced by these chemical responses is wrong. In fact, it would be the starting block on your part to this assessment.



LadyOfTheLake said:


> I suppose you are right, I should phrase that differently. It is entirely possible, and quite admirable, to control one's _emotional_ responses. By recognizing emotions for what they are, one does not give them any power in one's life or power to affect other people.


But how can you control them if you have no control over them? You say our emotions are nothing but these chemicals and we react to these chemicals. As you said, lab rats can have their mood change with a simple injection. Drug users have their moods changed by the drug. How can we control them?

And to say that by simply recognizing emotions for what they are, you don't allow them to have any power in your life is wrong. If your child dies, you don't simply say "well I understand the only reason I'm sad is because of the chemicals in my mind" and as a result are able to prevent yourself from crying. You can understand all you want what an emotion is, it will still have a large impact on you in a situation like that.


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## wifeandmummy (Aug 20, 2012)

When we first got married I was HD and H was LD and that went on for sometime...really untill our seperation last year...since we started R he has been about the same as me...although saying that he will only ever have sex once in any one day...I could go time and time again


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Where you got your info has nothing to do with what I said.


You asked where I got my information and knowledge from. You implied it was all from my own life experience. It isn't. The truth of the human condition is that we are driven by dopamine. 



> Essentially, your analysis of 'power' is nothing more than a long-term result of chemical responses in your brain, and to then say that your opinion of power isn't influenced by these chemical responses is wrong. In fact, it would be the starting block on your part to this assessment.


My conclusions are the result of me stripping everything down to basic elements. Removal of the unnecessary components, the "fluff" that so many people get caught up in. Those things don't matter. I'm interested in WHY people do what they do. What causes humans to act in oftentimes strange and confusing ways. Why seek out relationships? They aren't biologically necessary and they are rather a waste of energy. Why not just procreate and move on? I understand the societal reasons for relationships and the reasons why emotions keep us tied to one another, but I do enjoy analyzing people's true motives for interacting with one another, since I myself have very few motivations for doing so. 




> But how can you control them if you have no control over them? You say our emotions are nothing but these chemicals and we react to these chemicals. As you said, lab rats can have their mood change with a simple injection. Drug users have their moods changed by the drug. How can we control them?


You can't control the chemical reactions going on in your physical body, or at least not completely. But you can totally control outward displays of such emotion. Since you are the only person in the universe who knows that emotion you are feeling even exists at that moment, you can control what you do about it. Most people just don't bother. Hence we have a very emotive society. That is, in my eyes, unfortunate, to say the least. In times past, it was very passe to be as outwardly emotional as people are today.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm HD, he is LD. Went into the relationship thinking we were both HD but once we moved in together he started slowing down a lot. 
We ended up in MC together over it. He has an appt in June with an endo to deal with his lowered T. 
He has been refusing to take T. 
I have tried so hard to not let this bother me. 
We are about at twice a week but it feels like its always my idea. Its good sex. I sometimes feel like doing it more often, and I always get shot down. 
In the past week I was rejected twice.
I don't know why I try. 
Last night I just started to get really down about it. I miss feeling wanted and being seduced. I miss feeling sexy and I hate that it has to be three days in between like we are on a schedule. 
I hate that he gets it whenever he wants it. 
I'm sure there are times he is in the mood and he can tell that I'm not so he just doesn't try. Maybe I should just do that. 
I was doing so well at not being bothered by it. But I just don't get why he isn't bothered by this more. We never have sex more than once in a day. Never. 
I need to stop focusing on it and wait to see what comes out of the endo visit.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Diwali I'm pulling for you on the T being the cure like it was in my house. We have sex daily now and past two nights it was twice. It's like being married to an 18 year old. Surreal.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

He was multiorgasmic a few times when we first together. I just don't know how you go from being super sex man to average sex man so quickly!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> He was multiorgasmic a few times when we first together. I just don't know how you go from being super sex man to average sex man so quickly!


I do. Read up on what lowers T with men like this. 

My husband was never multiorgasmic but is now.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> I do. Read up on what lowers T with men like this.
> 
> My husband was never multiorgasmic but is now.


H can go twice in a day. Never twice with me though, one is always a solo effort.

The more I read stuff like this, the more I think my situation is based on how he feels about me.

Realizing H was NOT lower D but had a drive close to mine was like a 2x4 to the head. It just does not make sense to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> You can't control the chemical reactions going on in your physical body, or at least not completely. But you can totally control outward displays of such emotion. Since you are the only person in the universe who knows that emotion you are feeling even exists at that moment, you can control what you do about it. Most people just don't bother. Hence we have a very emotive society. That is, in my eyes, unfortunate, to say the least. In times past, it was very passe to be as outwardly emotional as people are today.


Why do you feel that's unfortunate? Emotions are human and natural and add spice and zest to life. Without them, it seems like life would be dull. I can't imagine not wanting to feel and express joy, excitement, love, contentment, pleasure, lust, happiness, passion, and yes, even sadness and tears. Dampening and bottling all that up would seem flat blah and grim to me. Feelings add color to life.

I like being able to feel and express what I feel. To me, it's not only an important part of being human, but it enhances every experience, which is all we have in life, really - experiences and how we feel about them.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Lady of the lake: it was like that only in certain cultures. Mostly places where it gets cold in winter and people had to share very small spaces. 
They didn't have room to be emotional, literally. And I imagine that when you have no privacy you might want to have some privacy in your head. 

In places where it is warm all year round people freely express their emotions. 
It takes energy to stifle your emotions.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Mavash I don't know if I would want it daily! But a little more spontaneity and initiation on his part would be awesome. 
Once we get started he's definitely taking charge which I like. It's just getting there that is the issue. 
He says he doesn't want to do T because it might change him. I don't get it. The MC and I both explained to him that it would change in good ways. 
I'm just hoping this is a really good endo and he can explain the risks of not addressing this (other than an unhappy wife). 
On a good note, I've lost some weight, my hair is getting longer and it's wavy, and I have started doing home made masks and using a lot of my anti aging cream. 
We went to the kid's school for a carnival today and I got lots of long looks from men I didn't know. I must be doing something right.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

diwali

I think you are very strong. You handle things super well. I am rooting for you too.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> Lady of the lake: it was like that only in certain cultures. Mostly places where it gets cold in winter and people had to share very small spaces.
> They didn't have room to be emotional, literally. And I imagine that when you have no privacy you might want to have some privacy in your head.
> 
> In places where it is warm all year round people freely express their emotions.
> It takes energy to stifle your emotions.


Yes, I am aware that different levels of emotional displays are related to culture. I was raised in a very restrained, stiff upper lip, grin and bear it type of society, which is what I appreciate in others. Overly emotive people annoy and embarrass me. 

The cold winter culture model is very interesting. I hadn't thought of that but it does make a great deal of sense. And I am of British and Nordic extraction, where it gets quite cold. :smthumbup:


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Germans are even worse, at least historically speaking. Lots of German in my family.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Sometimes going through the feedback loop so many times, this is what happens. You don't even want it anymore.


Frightening, as I'm starting to wonder if this is happening to me! I have never heard this mentioned before.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Frightening, as I'm starting to wonder if this is happening to me! I have never heard this mentioned before.


Trains your brain, brainwashes you, creates your expectation, you know what i'm saying.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> I don't think you can fit people into boxes with labels. General terms like HD and LD are broad and encompassing, but trying to further categorize people is futile as there are so so many variations on the themes of HD and LD. People will identify will many reasons for the way they are, or none at all. I don't fit in any of your descriptions, but I can take bits and pieces of them and make my own category that will only ever fit me. I am the product of MY environment, MY experiences, MY life. So is everyone else the product of theirs. There isn't a set of molds that LD people pop out of.


Concepts are useful. Creating a language that describes different possible motivations or causes or "benefits" for HD and LD is not futile. The answer is in the details, and to discuss details we need some set of labels and shared understanding of what the labels denote.

I will agree we may not be able to come up with suuficient but small-enough--it-is-manageable set of labels to cover everyone. So, perhaps most of us will be a unique mix of multiple labels. But, still, breaking things down by various characteristics has much potential for increasing understanding and opportunities to improve people's lives.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Concepts are useful. Creating a language that describes different possible motivations or causes or "benefits" for HD and LD is not futile. The answer is in the details, and to discuss details we need some set of labels and shared understanding of what the labels denote.
> 
> I will agree we may not be able to come up with suuficient but small-enough--it-is-manageable set of labels to cover everyone. So, perhaps most of us will be a unique mix of multiple labels. But, still, breaking things down by various characteristics has much potential for increasing understanding and opportunities to improve people's lives.


If you take a snapshot of their characteristic at that point in time, it can be bullet pointed. So while I don't really like labels, for this situation there may be categories and ranges of LD and HD. No one has to stay at an LD or HD description, that's up to them if it's important enough.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

And it's all relative. If I were with someone who wanted it every day I would be LD and he would be HD.


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## JohnSmithh (Feb 5, 2013)

CuddleBug said:


> I'm the HD and my wifee is the LD.
> 
> I've stopped initiating for sex because of her LD and usual excuses. And when I'm in the mood, I relieve myself and no more rejection.
> 
> ...


I'm the HD and she is the LD. She has the power for sure. Makes me feel like an ******* when I ask for sex. She wants to be romanced. That's what she tells me. Sorry, it's 6:30 pm, just got home from work, play with the kids, I clean the kitchen. It's now 8:00 pm and the last thing I want to do is romance her. Let's be adults and go enjoy ourselves? 

I'm in the same boat. I just stopped trying because all I get is complaints. She'd rather watch her tv shows. So every morning I take a shower and watch some porn on my smartphone and take care of myself. I can at least see someone get a BJ because those don't exist anymore either.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

You have a water proof phone?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

JohnSmithh said:


> I'm the HD and she is the LD. She has the power for sure. Makes me feel like an ******* when I ask for sex. She wants to be romanced. That's what she tells me. Sorry, it's 6:30 pm, just got home from work, play with the kids, I clean the kitchen. It's now 8:00 pm and the last thing I want to do is romance her. Let's be adults and go enjoy ourselves?
> 
> I'm in the same boat. I just stopped trying because all I get is complaints. She'd rather watch her tv shows. So every morning I take a shower and watch some porn on my smartphone and take care of myself. I can at least see someone get a BJ because those don't exist anymore either.


I am HD and I like to be romanced. Different dynamic but I cannot tell you how much it makes me feel like a blow up doll when H wants to go straight in to it. I told him if that is what he wants all the time then a blow up doll will do the job just as well and he does not have to worry about showing he cares about me in a way I understand.

If you read the 5 Love Languages it may go a long way to explaining why your wife is LD for you.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

JohnSmithh said:


> I'm the HD and she is the LD. She has the power for sure. Makes me feel like an ******* when I ask for sex. She wants to be romanced. That's what she tells me. Sorry, it's 6:30 pm, just got home from work, play with the kids, I clean the kitchen. It's now 8:00 pm and the last thing I want to do is romance her. Let's be adults and go enjoy ourselves?


Over time, and if you do not cheat on her ( him with shoe on other foot ), will this type of behavior ( rejection ) build up your self esteem, maintain your self esteem, or drain your self esteem?

If self-esteem is your responsibility, supposed to be inside of you. Why would sexual rejection from the one you love drain it?

Is it because we have some of our self worth invested in our sexual image of ourselves? Is there something wrong with this?

What about other types of rejection from your significant other whose supposed to respect your mind? Can being put in a box, or minimized lower your self esteem over time?



JohnSmithh said:


> I'm in the same boat. I just stopped trying because all I get is complaints. She'd rather watch her tv shows. So every morning I take a shower and watch some porn on my smartphone and take care of myself. I can at least see someone get a BJ because those don't exist anymore either.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> You asked where I got my information and knowledge from. You implied it was all from my own life experience. It isn't. The truth of the human condition is that we are driven by dopamine.


I asked and answered my own question by saying "Where was your knowledge derived from? What you have learned in your lifetime." 

Your information and knowledge comes from your life expereinces, not your dopamine. It didn't teach you 2+4 = 6. Your body chemicals influence what you lean towards and enjoy, and to that end impact what you have learned and know. They guide you there, but they don't instill knowledge. If they did, we'd have no need for schools.




LadyOfTheLake said:


> My conclusions are the result of me stripping everything down to basic elements. Removal of the unnecessary components, the "fluff" that so many people get caught up in. Those things don't matter. I'm interested in WHY people do what they do. What causes humans to act in oftentimes strange and confusing ways. Why seek out relationships? They aren't biologically necessary and they are rather a waste of energy. Why not just procreate and move on? I understand the societal reasons for relationships and the reasons why emotions keep us tied to one another, but I do enjoy analyzing people's true motives for interacting with one another, since I myself have very few motivations for doing so.


If relationships weren't biologically necessary on some level, why would we pursue them? Not to mention, this isn't restricted to our species, as many others do the same. Many species mate for life, or mate for several years in a row. There is a biological need to it, it's called preservation of the species. Same reason some animals run in packs or groups, strength in numbers. 



LadyOfTheLake said:


> You can't control the chemical reactions going on in your physical body, or at least not completely. But you can totally control outward displays of such emotion. Since you are the only person in the universe who knows that emotion you are feeling even exists at that moment, you can control what you do about it. Most people just don't bother. Hence we have a very emotive society. That is, in my eyes, unfortunate, to say the least. In times past, it was very passe to be as outwardly emotional as people are today.


If you think the average person can simply control an outward display of emotion when something severe happens, you aren't in touch with emotions on the same level as others. Maybe in an average day we can control them, but when you see a loved one die, you witness something like the Boston Marathon explosion, 9/11, etc. to say that people can simply "totally control outward displays of emotion" is just not in touch with reality. And that's the truth for any era, whether we are talking 2013 or 1013.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I'm HD, he is LD. Went into the relationship thinking we were both HD but once we moved in together he started slowing down a lot.


Me and my fiancee went at it as often as I wanted at first. I think I was turned down once or twice in almost two years. Didn't matter when, if I was in the mood, we were doing it, or I was getting something (like a BJ). Then we started living together and I think in order to make room for me in the house she kicked out her libido.



diwali123 said:


> We ended up in MC together over it. He has an appt in June with an endo to deal with his lowered T.


She's been in counselling (not specifically for this issue), and it's helped, but not greatly. I know she views sex as a chore.



diwali123 said:


> He has been refusing to take T.


I wish I could give him some of mine.



diwali123 said:


> I have tried so hard to not let this bother me.


Ditto. I've had more luck becoming a licensed pixie dust salesperson though.



diwali123 said:


> We are about at twice a week but it feels like its always my idea. Its good sex.


It's not ALWAYS my idea, but I'm becoming increasingly concerned that it is happening only because she feels like she has to. Twice a week was about where we were after we had a huge talk a while ago, but that's slipped off again as well. Not as bad as before, but closer to once a week. And I think that if she could, we'd have sex about once a month, or less. It's good when it happens, at least good for me anyways, but it's not as good as it could be, largely because I wonder if she REALLY wants to be there or not.



diwali123 said:


> I sometimes feel like doing it more often, and I always get shot down.


Ditto again. I was just shot down yesterday morning. I get shot down more than Japanese pilots in WWII.



diwali123 said:


> In the past week I was rejected twice.


I used to be there. Now I get shot down once and then don't ask again (or rarely ask again) until she initiates. Only thing more embarrassing than getting shot down is getting shot down repeatedly between sexual sessions. Makes you feel REALLY undesireable and like a burden. So now I'll wait until she asks. She'll ask, we'll have sex most likely, and then 3-4 days later I'll ask (have to wait 3-4 days usually for any real chance of getting a yes). Odds are though she'll say no, and we'll be back at the beginning of the cycle again.



diwali123 said:


> I don't know why I try.


Me either.



diwali123 said:


> Last night I just started to get really down about it. I miss feeling wanted and being seduced. I miss feeling sexy and I hate that it has to be three days in between like we are on a schedule.


This is me to a tee. It was great not getting turned down by my fiancee when we first started our relationship, but the best part was feeling desired. After what I had with my ex-wife, and with the lack of girlfriends or success with girls in general prior to that, it was so amazing to have a woman in my life who wanted me badly. So badly she was chasing me. She'd always ahve her 'mind in the gutter' as she'd call it.

Now, I don't think she could locate that gutter with the aid of GPS. I think if my penis fell off tomorrow she really wouldn't be all that upset about it. She'd be more upset for me than for what she's going to be missing out on.



diwali123 said:


> I hate that he gets it whenever he wants it.


Yep. I turned my fiancee down once since we started dating. That ended with her crying and locking herself in the bedroom. I meanwhile would wager I have been turned down about once a week on average throughout our relationship, which is just over 5 years old now. So roughly, I've been turned down by her just under 300 times so far.

Now add in the rejection I received from my ex-wife, and I'd say I'm clos to 1,000 rejections in my life. My resentment towards sex is at a boiling point. 



diwali123 said:


> I'm sure there are times he is in the mood and he can tell that I'm not so he just doesn't try.


Other than one rejection, that's never a reason in our household. She can get it 100% of the time (well, I guess more like 99.99%) 



diwali123 said:


> Maybe I should just do that.


Doesn't work.



diwali123 said:


> I was doing so well at not being bothered by it. But I just don't get why he isn't bothered by this more.


Why would he be? He gets laid almost whenevre he wants to and when he does get rejected it's ok because he's hardly ever rejected, plus he does reject you so he has no right to complain when you do it to him (wish my fiancee understood that).



diwali123 said:


> We never have sex more than once in a day. Never.


I gave up on that years ago. We used to, and then she changed. Now, I don't even ask for sex the day after, even if I'm rip-roaring horny. I'll wait a minimum of two days, and even then I really RARELY ask because I'd say my reject rate then would be about 80%.



diwali123 said:


> I need to stop focusing on it and wait to see what comes out of the endo visit.


Easier said than done. Let me know how you managed to stop focusing on it if you are successful.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> He was multiorgasmic a few times when we first together. I just don't know how you go from being super sex man to average sex man so quickly!


It's called bait and switch. I'm sure you know it very well from these boards Diwali. He's getting what he wants out of the relationship, so why continue to put out?



diwali123 said:


> He says he doesn't want to do T because it might change him. I don't get it. The MC and I both explained to him that it would change in good ways.


Think about it. You say it'll change him in a good way, but what does he really want to change? Outside of you nagging him (and rightfully so) what's wrong with his life? He gets laid almost whenever he wants to. Why would he see a need to change that? He's obviously not to interested in what you're dealing with and is focused on him, or he'd be taking that stuff.


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## LVF (May 5, 2013)

I think the LD is the "happier", i.e., satisfied. But if a HD is married to another HD, they are absolutely the happiest. 
It might be a bit of a prejudice, but as a HD wife married to a LD H, it is frustrating and almost a shame to me. Not because I expect real men to want to have sex often, but because as a woman I feel guilty for wanting it when he doesn't. I feel like I'm being cheap, easy or something. And because he knows I want and he doesn't feel like, there is some tension and almost disapproval in the air for thinking about sex "all the time".

I also don't know what is worse: the spouse that is LD and simply doesn't have sex, or the one who is aware of his LD and still tries to force himself to have sex and then doesn't focus nor to enjoy it as much. 

I was wondering, do LD have little sex but the few times they do they actually enjoy it and prolong it for a while. Or have it a few times and as quickly as possible? 
If a LD would enjoys sex for 30 mins or so, even if only every once in a while, it is still more bearable.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

My fiancee is LD and we have sex about every five days to one week right now. She's told me before that she could easily go months, if not years, without sex and not miss it. 

She says she enjoys it, but not enough to really worry about having it on a regular basis.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> My fiancee is LD and we have sex about every five days to one week right now. *She's told me before that she could easily go months, if not years, without sex and not miss it. *
> 
> She says she enjoys it, but not enough to really worry about having it on a regular basis.


kingsfan,

Haven't read your story yet, and I probably should stay silent. But, I have to say, even though I'm guessing you already know: that part in bold is awfully damn scary!

Btw, my wife wasn't like that in the beginning (or else she kept it hidden pretty well), but she is sure like that now.

EDIT: Oh heck, I just read a bit of your story above! So, let me say, I'm really sorry you are in the situation you are in. I think I know a bit about how you feel. And, yeah, that part in bold is awfully damn scary.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> kingsfan,
> 
> Haven't read your story yet, and I probably should stay silent. But, I have to say, even though I'm guessing you already know: that part in bold is awfully damn scary!
> 
> ...


It's amazing to think they can do without it, and feel like their missing nothing.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

Kingsfan, I was the same way as your fiancee for many years. I honestly would have been perfectly content to never have had to have sex again. Even though I O'd every time, it just wasn't important at all. Now, I could do it every day. I DO do it most days, LOL

So there is hope things could change, especially if your SO has yet to hit any of the typical ages where hormones shift for women.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

treyvion said:


> It's amazing to think they can do without it, and feel like their missing nothing.


I've been on both sides of the spectrum, and I don't think it's amazing at all. For them, they AREN'T missing anything. What you find important about sex is meaningless to them, so they don't miss it. At all.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> I've been on both sides of the spectrum, and I don't think it's amazing at all. For them, they AREN'T missing anything. What you find important about sex is meaningless to them, so they don't miss it. At all.


Once you turned it back on, did you realize it was something you prefer to have?


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Once you turned it back on, did you realize it was something you prefer to have?


*grasping for straws^^^*


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Once you turned it back on, did you realize it was something you prefer to have?


Of course. Its like milk chocolate and hot bubble baths...one of life's little luxuries. But I could easily live without it if I had to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> kingsfan,
> 
> Haven't read your story yet, and I probably should stay silent. But, I have to say, even though I'm guessing you already know: that part in bold is awfully damn scary!
> 
> ...


It is scary. Very scary. The scariest part isn't so much what our sex life is like now, it's knowing that things aren't guaranteed to stay the same. They aren't guaranteed to stay the same for any relationship, but I know that things could get either better or worse for us. If they get worse though, the potential for months of no sex is downright frightening.



LadyOfTheLake said:


> Kingsfan, I was the same way as your fiancee for many years. I honestly would have been perfectly content to never have had to have sex again. Even though I O'd every time, it just wasn't important at all. Now, I could do it every day. I DO do it most days, LOL
> 
> So there is hope things could change, especially if your SO has yet to hit any of the typical ages where hormones shift for women.


She has had a full hyserectomy, so that has affected her horomones definately. 

What changed things for you? 

I don't even want to do it most days, I'd just like 2x a week, with it a bit more often the odd week when I'm really in the mood, the occassional BJ and maybe a little spice to things (different positions once in a while, some lingerie, etc.) I can't think of anything I've asked for that's weird, really all I want is some passion and desire. It's been about 4 years now since my fiancee really HAD to have me. It feels so awesome when that happens.

Thanks for your kind words LOTL and I've enjoyed our little debates in some threads recently. I enjoy discussing philosophy with people, it's a great way to see an alternative point of view and understand it, even if sometimes it comes across a big argument on these boards (I hope you don't take it that way).


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> Of course. Its like milk chocolate and hot bubble baths...one of life's little luxuries. But I could easily live without it if I had to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for sharing LOTL.

I have a question regarding this. I understand how that could be a take or leave type of thing in life, however I know if someone came to me offering me to join them in a bubble bath or to enjoy some milk chocolates, I'd say yes. I may not get up to do it on my own, but if someone I liked/loved came to me and offered to have me join in with them, I'd more often than not say yes. In fact, I'd likely have to be sick or really involved in something else in order to say no.

So why is it some women (and some men, but I'll stick to women in this question because you are one) still turn down the offer on a very frequent basis? How do you view the request? Does it come across as 'just another job to do'? Does it bore you? What thoughts go through your head as to why you'd rather pass on bubble baths and chocolate (AKA, sex)? 

I ask this especially for instances where you aren't doing anything important at the moment, or something that can clearly wait until later.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Kingsfan

I have to ask. If your partner is this adverse to regular sex at this stage in your relationship do you not anticipate it's going to get even worse once you're married?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Kingsfan
> 
> I have to ask. If your partner is this adverse to regular sex at this stage in your relationship do you not anticipate it's going to get even worse once you're married?


I've answered this before in a few other threads, so I won't expond on it as much as I have before. Here's the Cole's Notes version.

In a nutshell, yes and no. I don't 'anticipate it' but I do anticipate that it is a possibility. I understand that.

That said, while we are engaged, it is more or less making what we have now formal if anything. We have a house together, raise four kids together (well five, but one is off to college now). Even though we don't have any biological kids together, my oldest son has moved in with us full-time for the past two+ years and she has really become his mother since his birthmother has cut off all communication with him (even though she's in the same small town as us).

For me to leave would be very much the same as getting a divorce. I did go through a divorce once before, so I know what one entails, and a lot of what would go on time is very much the same. It might be quicker because we aren't legally married, but we are legally common-law, which in this province holds close to the same level of value before the eyes of the law as an actual marriage. Not to mention, me leaving would rip out my oldest sons heart I think. It'd be like lossing a mom for the second time in his life. He's still trying to come to grips with what his birth mother has done.

And also, outside of the bedroom, me and my fiancee get along great. Few problems, and what there is minor. The only real issue is our sex life.

So, in brief, am I willing to give up a pretty damn good relationship and break my oldest sons already smashed heart in order to MAYBE end up with a better sex life? At this point in my life, no. Could that change in five years, or 20 years? Maybe, we don't know what life brings, but right now I'm staying where I am and working to improve the sex life.

Hopefully that makes the picture more clear for you.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Why do some hopeless HD people still refuse to believe marriage is not a sexual contact? What do they think it is a sibling contract? Roommate contract? Wake up!


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

MrBrains said:


> Why do some hopeless HD people still refuse to believe marriage is not a sexual contact? What do they think it is a sibling contract? Roommate contract? Wake up!


I don't think the HD person doesn't think it's a sexual contract, I think the LD person thinks its not.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> She has had a full hyserectomy, so that has affected her horomones definately.


Oh yes, that will do it. Is she on HRT at all or is she too young for that? 



> What changed things for you?


I still don't know. I have a few theories but no conclusions. I know hitting 30 probably had something to do with it. Finally maturing a bit and then reading a lot here. Realizing that my husband got a lot more out of sex than I did. That it was something I could give him and it wasn't something he was taking from me.....THAT was a big one. 

My libido picked up just in time for him to get a series of super stressful job promotions and tank his. Poetic justice LOL.




> Thanks for your kind words LOTL and I've enjoyed our little debates in some threads recently. I enjoy discussing philosophy with people, it's a great way to see an alternative point of view and understand it, even if sometimes it comes across a big argument on these boards (I hope you don't take it that way).


Nothing I enjoy more than an argument with someone who refuses to be intimidated by me and can carry on an intelligent discussion without getting defensive.  It's how I learn the best, as well. I never take things at face value, I have to argue and debate them first. I should have been a lawyer......


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> I don't think the HD person doesn't think it's a sexual contract, I think the LD person thinks its not.


The HDs here do it to justify staying. The LDs for the most part aren't here.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Thanks for sharing LOTL.
> 
> 
> So why is it some women (and some men, but I'll stick to women in this question because you are one) still turn down the offer on a very frequent basis? How do you view the request? Does it come across as 'just another job to do'? Does it bore you? What thoughts go through your head as to why you'd rather pass on bubble baths and chocolate (AKA, sex)?
> ...


Well, I view sex as one of life's little luxuries NOW. Back when I was LD, it was something to be avoided if at all possible. I was able to physically enjoy it, and would sometimes really get into it when we were doing it, but that didn't make me want to do it anymore the next time. I've always O'd easily, even multiple times and my dh is a good lover. But when he approached me I felt cornered. My instinctual reaction was to reject. I turned him down without even thinking about it. It felt like he was invading my personal space, my territory. Like I wanted to tell him just to back off, step away, give me room. I felt panicked and would try to think of any excuse to avoid it, even if he'd already begun his seduction. Which would frustrate him and make him angry. If he started rubbing my back, that was supposed to be a sign that he could proceed. But sometimes I was just frozen, I hadn't thought of a good excuse yet. Man, would he ever get mad when I came up with one at the last minute. But I still did, I had my reprieve. 

So there was that aspect, the fight or flight that I felt and then there was the fact that he came across as very needy. And I really despise neediness in people and I HATE to be needed. By anyone. The more someone clings to me the farther I push them away. I DO NOT want to be responsible for anyone's emotions or feelings. Ick. So the whole "I want you, I need you" thing made me want to run the other way. 

So while I view sex as a pleasant distraction NOW, I never did THEN. It wasn't a thing that I could take or leave. As an LD it was something I actively avoided if at all possible. Now, I go for it even if I'm not in the mood because 1) I told DH I am always going to be open to his advances from now on and 2) it is like chocolate, and I can always enjoy some chocolate


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

The thing about being HD, ND (Normal drive) or LD is it can change, during you're lifetime.

HD today could become LD in the future or vise versa or somewhere in between.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

MrBrains said:


> Why do some hopeless HD people still refuse to believe marriage is not a sexual contact? What do they think it is a sibling contract? Roommate contract? Wake up!


I never signed a sexual contract when I married. Other than promising to be faithful to my husband, that is ALL I promised to do, sexually. Whether we'd be sexual or not or how often or what kind all remained to be seen. We *assumed* we would be, but there was no requirement. 

You don't have the right to require anyone to be sexual with you. You only get to have that control over your own body.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> I never signed a sexual contract when I married. Other than promising to be faithful to my husband, that is ALL I promised to do, sexually. Whether we'd be sexual or not or how often or what kind all remained to be seen. We *assumed* we would be, but there was no requirement.
> 
> You don't have the right to require anyone to be sexual with you. You only get to have that control over your own body.


Siblings are faithful. There's no right. There's just a contract. Break it if you like...it's humpy dumpty.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"You don't have the right to require anyone to be sexual with you."

Well, I do. But that is because my H and I actually did make a sexual contract. To willingly violate it (blanketly, not just for a short time) will equal a divorce.

We both have some very specific requirements, and yes they are requirements. But we happily fulfill our requirements.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> Oh yes, that will do it. Is she on HRT at all or is she too young for that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She is taking HRT.

As for your libido improvement, how long has it been 'up' for now? 



MrBrains said:


> The HDs here do it to justify staying. The LDs for the most part aren't here.


I'm HD, and I don't use it to justify staying. I stay for a host of other reasons DESPITE her breaking the contract.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"I'm HD..."


I actually don't think that you are. I think you are compared to her, but not compared to the rest of the male population.

But I already said that in another post.

Just pointing it out though.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> I never signed a sexual contract when I married. Other than promising to be faithful to my husband, that is ALL I promised to do, sexually. Whether we'd be sexual or not or how often or what kind all remained to be seen. We *assumed* we would be, but there was no requirement.
> 
> You don't have the right to require anyone to be sexual with you. You only get to have that control over your own body.


Considering some faiths (and I think in places the law) requires you to 'consumate' the marriage by having sex, technically you do agree to have sex at least once in order to become married.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "I'm HD..."
> 
> 
> I actually don't think that you are. I think you are compared to her, but not compared to the rest of the male population.
> ...


Let me clarrify then. I'm the HD in the relationship.

The fact that I may not be HD overall though just depresses me more, because I already thought I wasn't asking for very much (frequency and otherwise) but now I think I'm asking for even less than most men would.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"....but now I think I'm asking for even less than most men would."

I think the real key here is that you are still with her, even though you've already been through one divorce over sex issues (I hope I have that part right), and yet, you are going into this knowing full on that it might turn out to be a sexless relationship.

You say things like "but sex isn't everything", which is a nice sentiment. But a real HD person will not say this.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

To clarify...it isn't that an HD person will say "sex IS everything"...but instead they will say "I'm an adult and I will have an adult sex life"....and whatever has to happen for that person to have an adult sex life, will happen. Including divorce or breaking off an engagement.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

This talk about contracts has me thinking. My wife and I wrote our own vows, and included a phrase establishing sexual expectations. (I hesitate to put them verbatim here. They were not graphic or referencing specific acts, but, clear enough to adults who were listening.)

So, yes, there is a contract of sorts -- definitely a pledge/promise. And, it's broken -- broken by her, unilaterally, if you ask me.

So what? I can walk away for that. I can walk away for any reason, though. So can she. 

That said, I wonder if it would be useful to remind her of our vows. My guess is she'll get defensive and point out all the ways I've failed her since, violations of expectations implicit or explicit in our vows. Just the other day I tried to point out: "Well, there is something different about sex, don't you think? There is a promise of exlusivity, right?" Her response was, "I actually wish you would get it from somewhere else." I don't believe that for a second, and that's not what I want anyways. But, that's what I get.


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## CaptVere (Aug 27, 2012)

You can certainly define any variety of requirements or expectations in a marriage outside of "remain faithful and don't abuse me". That should be the bare minimum in the contract. After that, couples should define their other expectations. Abandoning your partner sexually or using it to control him/her is a very reasonable deal breaker in a marriage.

Telling your partner to suck it up or that you won't do anything you don't want to do is all well and good and that's your right, but it's your partner's right to leave you over that and I would not shame them for it.

The position of many LL partners is simply this, "No, I don't need sex and I will only have it on my terms, maybe. I don't need it and relationships are more than sex. And no, you can't seek it elsewhere. I don't want it, but you can't have it elsewhere either. That's my right." It's not rational. There are consequences if your partner has any amount of self respect left.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "....but now I think I'm asking for even less than most men would."
> 
> I think the real key here is that you are still with her, even though you've already been through one divorce over sex issues (I hope I have that part right), and yet, you are going into this knowing full on that it might turn out to be a sexless relationship.
> 
> You say things like "but sex isn't everything", which is a nice sentiment. But a real HD person will not say this.


Sex was part of my divorce, but there were so many issues that it was way down the list. As bad as our sex life was, I wouldn't even rate it in the top five problems from that marriage.


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## CaptVere (Aug 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "....but now I think I'm asking for even less than most men would."
> 
> I think the real key here is that you are still with her, even though you've already been through one divorce over sex issues (I hope I have that part right), and yet, you are going into this knowing full on that it might turn out to be a sexless relationship.
> 
> You say things like "but sex isn't everything", which is a nice sentiment. But a real HD person will not say this.


Agreed. As a HD person, sexual and general intimate neglect is emotional neglect. The connection between me and my partner fades. The emotional connection between us disappears and is replaced with numbness or resentment. To many people, sex is fundamental. The relationship is just a complicated friendship without it. It doesn't mean we don't want the rest of what a relationship has to offer, but that we put a priority on intimacy because it's how we feel and express love.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

What do people consider a minimum frequency (assuming it was done willingly) in order to say the LD spouse is providing a good enough sex life that the HD spouse wouldn't be considered correct in leaving?

I know it would vary from relationship to relationship, and could vary wildly, but what would you consider the minimum amount of sex (and minimum types of sexual if applicable) in order to stay married?


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## CaptVere (Aug 27, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> This talk about contracts has me thinking. My wife and I wrote our own vows, and included a phrase establishing sexual expectations. (I hesitate to put them verbatim here. They were not graphic or referencing specific acts, but, clear enough to adults who were listening.)
> 
> So, yes, there is a contract of sorts -- definitely a pledge/promise. And, it's broken -- broken by her, unilaterally, if you ask me.
> 
> ...


"That said, I wonder if it would be useful to remind her of our vows. "

Useful how? Attraction and desire are not logical choices. You don't talk your way back into these traits. Of course she'll deflect the issue because she knows she can't just reason her way back into wanting it.

As you can see, actions are really all that matter. Often you have to be half out the door before a LL partner will take stock of their past actions and realize what's going on. Sometimes they have the epiphany on their own as you can see from some threads on the main page now, but that's not usually the case. If it's important to you, you'll have to make it important and deal with the shame and deflection tactics. Don't put up with it if it's important. Asking her nicely isn't going to get it done in my experience.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Kingsfan...For me, I'm willing to accept a lesser quantity as long as the quality is through the roof. So for me personally (which doesn't mean diddly to anyone else), I could accept once a week or even slightly less, as long as that once a week is mind blowing.

However, for it to be mind blowing to me, requires a lot of skill and imagination that some people just don't have.


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## CaptVere (Aug 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Kingsfan...For me, I'm willing to accept a lesser quantity as long as the quality is through the roof. So for me personally (which doesn't mean diddly to anyone else), I could accept once a week or even slightly less, as long as that once a week is mind blowing.
> 
> However, for it to be mind blowing to me, requires a lot of skill and imagination that some people just don't have.


While I agree with this, I think it's an unlikely scenario. A HL person wants their partner to want it. They don't want duty/chore/vanilla sex. Someone who really gets into it and is both enthusiastic and into variety, probably wants it quite often as well.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

As I said, it means diddly to anyone else.

But in my reality, my husband is a Sex God. So all my bases are covered.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

CaptVere said:


> "That said, I wonder if it would be useful to remind her of our vows. "
> 
> Useful how? Attraction and desire are not logical choices. You don't talk your way back into these traits. Of course she'll deflect the issue because she knows she can't just reason her way back into wanting it.
> 
> As you can see, actions are really all that matter. Often you have to be half out the door before a LL partner will take stock of their past actions and realize what's going on. Sometimes they have the epiphany on their own as you can see from some threads on the main page now, but that's not usually the case. If it's important to you, you'll have to make it important and deal with the shame and deflection tactics. Don't put up with it if it's important. Asking her nicely isn't going to get it done in my experience.


Good points. Just in case anyone misunderstand, I very much agree that she can be talked back into those traits. At the same time, I think she evades -- at a conscious level and perhaps deeper -- that providing sexual pleasure to each other is a fairly common expectation in a marriage, and many folks see it as a requirement if love is to thrive. My purpose in reminding her of our vows is to help her conscious brain see that, once upon a time, she was one who thought sexual intimacy is important to.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

There is no difference between infidelity and sexual deprivation. Both break the marriage contract. Before you jump on me know my wife had had many affairs. Shes LD but still gives me what I NEED. (Quantity) Not want. (Quality)


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

Why would an LD have affairs? If she had affairs, then she desired sex....ipso facto...not LD. 

Maybe you and I are arguing at crosspoints Mr. Brain if you think a true LD would bother with affairs. I'd sooner have had my fingernails pulled out....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

MrBrains said:


> There is no difference between infidelity and sexual deprivation. Both break the marriage contract. *Before you jump on me know my wife had had many affairs. Shes LD but still gives me what I NEED.* (Quantity) Not want. (Quality)


Whhhaaaaatttt?! :scratchhead:


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I believe if you ask most women why they had affairs is was not to have sex.
Affairs are not about sex the majority of the time.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

T&T said:


> Whhhaaaaatttt?! :scratchhead:


LD wife can be accommodating to her husband. LD does not mean hateful. D does stand for Desire.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I'm in the camp of wanting my partner to want to have sex with me. If she were only doing it because of a perceived contract or because she fears losing me I would conclude I'm with the wrong person.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

McBrains...thats sucks. Multiple affairs? WTF?


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Yes 2 PAs 2 EAs we have 3 children.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Where is your story? Why are you still there? Why is it ok with you? WTF?


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I don't want to hijack this thread.. So I will post it in the infidelity forum.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Where is your story? Why are you still there? Why is it ok with you? WTF?


It's in the infidelity forum.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Well that place sucks.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

MrBrains said:


> It's in the infidelity forum.


Can you post the link?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

MrBrains said:


> Well that place sucks.


That's why I rarely go there. To many bad memories get stirred up for me. I go once in a while, but it's rare and I rarely post. I am curious about your story though.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Can you post the link?


Enter at your own risk 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?t=76161


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MrBrains said:


> Enter at your own risk
> How infidelity changed my life


Guys, TAM was giving me a sense of empowerment with posts such as Machiavelli, Carribean Man, WoundedWarrior and others, but in the last couple of weeks, I've been getting dragged down by LadyOfTheLake and her steadfast, emotional-less state and diamond sharp boundaries and some of these cheated on stories and hopelessness.

What I was hearing when I first got here, were constructive ways to correct the situation, or to leave and to rebuild yourself. All positive methods.

I'm getting a little down worrying about the "what if"s in my current situation. you don't know, but you know how the world is.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I hope you don't think my story is of hopelessness. It's all about making good from bad.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MrBrains said:


> I hope you don't think my story is of hopelessness. It's all about making good from bad.


That's a great thing if you can pull it off. Part of pulling it off is having the relationship turn around to a good one.


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## JohnSmithh (Feb 5, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> You have a water proof phone?


haha nope. Just be really careful not to get it wet.


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## JohnSmithh (Feb 5, 2013)

So my LD wife tried to initiate with me last night. I shut her down because it's at the point now where I resent her so much that the last thing I want to do is have sex with her. It will just lead to the same cycle again. I get laid and then cut off for a month.

I am going to get the 5 love languages though and see if it helps. Bottomline, I don't want to romance her every damn night. Seriously, who has time for that? I guess we have different ideas of what romance is.

For me, it's doing my job and providing for the family. Coming home every night and doing my duties as a father and husband. I blame these problems on tv. TV has created this false reality of what relationships are supposed to be.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Is it the same time every month?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

One-paragraph review of 5 Love Languages... There's like these 5 concepts that supposedly can be used to describe love to the other partner, well, good idea, doc, BUT, by the time you reach out to buy the book you either know what your partner 'likes' (ergo, you know his/her language) or you can't possibly fathom it, in which case the book is too late. The book also assumes 'normal people' relationships, and I ain't so sure we're much of that ilk in these here boards if you know what I mean... Once doc listed the 5 languages in chapter 1 or so, it took me 5 minutes to determine which is which in my relationship, mine and hers, and another 5 to determine that I'm already doing'em much to no avail (long story for another time and thread). 

In other words, the book, while very well written and useful for 'normal people', may not be as applicable to those who shop in the Beyond section of Bed, Bath, etc.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Guys, TAM was giving me a sense of empowerment with posts such as Machiavelli, Carribean Man, WoundedWarrior and others, but in the last couple of weeks, I've been getting dragged down by LadyOfTheLake and her steadfast, emotional-less state and diamond sharp boundaries and some of these cheated on stories and hopelessness.
> 
> What I was hearing when I first got here, were constructive ways to correct the situation, or to leave and to rebuild yourself. All positive methods.
> 
> I'm getting a little down worrying about the "what if"s in my current situation. you don't know, but you know how the world is.


Treyvion,

I think ups and downs while dealing with pain and growth and change and relationships is normal, and the downs are not necessarily predictive. Give yourself permission to feel down without resigning yourself to a hope-unworthy fate.

Btw, just took a several day break from TAM because it was bringing me down.


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