# The girls night out debacle...



## vaflower

Need some honest opinions here...

I have been married for over 10 years, my best friend has been married to her husband for over 16 years. 
My best friends birthday is coming up and I wanted to get a bunch of girls together, have dinner, some drinks, go dancing and just hang out. We were planning to make it an overnighter and the next morning get up late, do the brunch thing and return to our lives. She is a mother of a teenager and rarely gets out of the house without her husband and son. She was all for this girls night out... until...
She told her husband we were going and he completely flipped out. He thinks it's inappropriate for her to go out without him because she'll be at a bar, club or a restaurant. He's given her the "its not that I dont trust you, I dont trust other men" speech. Now my husband has started in on the same thing, suggesting the only reason we want to go out is to act like we're single.
I can safely and totally honestly say that this is not a frequent occurance, maybe once a year, and that we really dont pick up men or behave inappropriately, we're pretty boring. The other women going with us are married as well. 
I can also say that our husbands go out of town for guys retreats for sports for full weekends at a time and she and I both support them having an outlet.
The reason we never go out... because the guys throw a fit EVERY time. My questions are this...
Why are men so threatened with a girls night out?
Whats with the double standard? 
Is this something everyone runs into or is it just us?


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## Airbus

Ah, if only they knew...my last real GNO was in May of last year. A bachelorette. It was just ghastly! No one really had that good of a time, and most of them ended up drinking too much, as though it were the last time any of them were going to get to go out, ever!

To answer your questions...I have a GF with a freak out hubby...he actually pretends to look for apartments in the paper, before and after said GNO...usually, she throws in the towel and doesn't bother. Which is sad!

My husband doesn't care, though. And really? I have no desire to go out all night anymore anyway. Well past that.

You two should just do it, a la Thelma and Louise, minus the murder and robbery, especially if your husbands go off on their own.


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## Shaggy

The big difference maybe the dancing part which is going to a place with men looking to hook up. Where as guys going to sports bars usually only meet other old guys at the sports bar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CWM0842

If everything you say is accurate you all must have married insecure guys, or at least one or two of you did and the others are just faithfully backing him/them up. I could see being partly perturbed if you were going to a meat market club where all there is is dancing and drinking and it's so loud you couldn't even plausibly be talking to your friends. Even so, I'd let it pass. 

Seems more likely there are deeper problems and history between your friend and her husband and the other guys in the group are just backing him up as a friend. Hard to believe a cross-section of guys would all be threatened by that.


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## Hope1964

Shaggy said:


> The big difference maybe the dancing part which is going to a place with men looking to hook up. Where as guys going to sports bars usually only meet other old guys at the sports bar.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: I am all for girls night out. But I do not think it should be at a bar with dancing and drinking. Leave that for the single people, or do it with your spouse. 

It doesn't take deeper problems or history for a guy to know exactly what goes on at clubs. He probably used to do it himself. Just like the father whose teenage daughter is dating. It has nothing to do with trust, it has to do with the fact he doesn't want a bunch of horny drunk guys oogling his wife and trying to pick her up. As a wife, *I* don't want a bunch of horny drunk guys oogling me and trying to pick me up either.

Go to a spa for pedicures, then hit the mall and shop, go to a nice restaurant, and finish up at a movie or at someones house for drinks and a hot tub. Or get a hotel room with a hot tub and end up there. Skip the club.


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## Entropy3000

vaflower said:


> Need some honest opinions here...
> 
> I have been married for over 10 years, my best friend has been married to her husband for over 16 years.
> My best friends birthday is coming up and I wanted to get a bunch of girls together, have dinner, some drinks, go dancing and just hang out. We were planning to make it an overnighter and the next morning get up late, do the brunch thing and return to our lives. She is a mother of a teenager and rarely gets out of the house without her husband and son. She was all for this girls night out... until...
> She told her husband we were going and he completely flipped out. He thinks it's inappropriate for her to go out without him because she'll be at a bar, club or a restaurant. He's given her the "its not that I dont trust you, I dont trust other men" speech. Now my husband has started in on the same thing, suggesting the only reason we want to go out is to act like we're single.
> I can safely and totally honestly say that this is not a frequent occurance, maybe once a year, and that we really dont pick up men or behave inappropriately, we're pretty boring. The other women going with us are married as well.
> I can also say that our husbands go out of town for guys retreats for sports for full weekends at a time and she and I both support them having an outlet.
> The reason we never go out... because the guys throw a fit EVERY time. My questions are this...
> Why are men so threatened with a girls night out?
> Whats with the double standard?
> Is this something everyone runs into or is it just us?


GNOs are great. Girls Nights Out with other men besides their husbands is another thing. If it involves flirting, drinking, dancing and out all night at some unspecified place it is a problem for a lot of us guys. 

It is not the same is going on a fishing trip with the guys unless the guys brought some single women along who were looking for some sex.

In most men's biology c0ckbl0cking it a builtin that has to be rationalized away. We are not wired to share our wives with other men. Some men dig this. Many / most do not.

Drunken nights out being rubbed on by men trying to get into your pants is single behavior in my opinion. I understand taking breaks from the daily grind but if the answer is taking a break from being married and being grinded on then I throw the challenge flag.

Boundaries. What a couple jointly agrees on their boundaries is the important thing. Not peer pressure from friends that will call the husband jealous, insecure or controlling. Those are very much the rhetoric of shenanigans. Total FAIL.

If it is ok for the hubby to go out to meat markets and grind on women in a drunken state then I think that is fair for the wife to do. One of the big red flags with this is that the women will be sleeping in late. Is it a hotel? Someones home? Sounds like we are talking about the Hangover scneario.

Is that really a good idea?


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## SimplyAmorous

vaflower said:


> My questions are this...
> Why are men so threatened with a girls night out?
> Whats with the double standard?


I can't speak for these husbands but I will for my own...he would allow me to go but... he wouldn't like it for 2 reasons.... #1 he is worried about other men and thier intentions... and #2 ... girls going out alone -things can happen. If drinking & dancing is involved, even more so. Guys know how other guys ARE...and in the bar scene, probably 75% are looking to hook up..

When we go to a bar, we go with friends and always together, the bar scene annoys me a little, you walk in the door it seems like a spotlight has been put on you, the whole place is checking you out ...near makes you feel like a peice of meat. At least the smaller bars , it seems this way to me.


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## MSP

It's all fun and games until someone has an affair. I've seen that happen from GNOs a lot. I'm dead against them if it involves clubs or bars or any other places where people might go to hook up. Restaurants, cafes, movies, etc. are all very different environments. But if you are drinking and dancing in a place where there are other guys then that's just not a good idea at all. That's like a guy sharing a hotel room with a female work friend on a business trip. I don't think a lot of wives would approve that.


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## vaflower

No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying. 
Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men. Locations can change without issue if that was the problem. In the past months we've tried to go to a movie, dinner, heck even lunch on a Saturday and got backtalk from that too so it's not just this one time.

Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, we'll have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet, no. I have to wonder why she and I both are really allowing them to dictate our plans to begin with.


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## Tall Average Guy

vaflower said:


> No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying.
> Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men.
> 
> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, let us have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet that doesnt seem to solve the problem either.


Why are you not objecting to them doing anythign they want? Are they acting in a way that might be inappropriate? Are they going to a singles bar to mingle and drink? If so, does that bother you?



> Are they just being controlling or are my friend and I waaay off base by wanting some time away with the girls?


It is not the time away with the girls, it is the activity that is causing the issue.


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## CWM0842

Describe with specificity where you're going and what you're doing. This is key. Dancing at a loud club where there's not even much conversation shouldn't really be necessary for you. That would annoy most guys. Just sitting at a bar with your friends I don't see as a problem. Also, what is an "overnighter?" You just stay at one friend's house? If everyone is local and you're staying local this doesn't seem necessary.

And if he's doing "goodness knows what" then he should be held accountable. His weekends and what goes on there would be in a different thread.


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## LovesHerMan

When you say drinks and dancing, what kind of place are you thinking of? How will you dress? It is not appropriate for married women to go to a club where drunken people are looking to hook up.


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## Entropy3000

vaflower said:


> No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying.
> Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men.
> 
> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, let us have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet that doesnt seem to solve the problem either.
> Are they just being *controlling* or are my friend and I waaay off base by wanting some time away with the girls?


No one is saying the women are taking men with them. But are they going out dancing at a meat market? The men will be there. Most are there for the sport. The sport of women.

So why the need to sleep in late? Are the women going to be up having pillow fights? Or will there be so much drinking that some will be degrading themselves or just not remembering what they did?

Like it or not married women in these circumstances are targets. I am not just talking about the lower back tatoos either.


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## Hope1964

vaflower said:


> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes


Not if what the husband wishes to do is something the wife is comfortable with. A hunting trip or sports bar scene is not quite the same as a meat market dance club.


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## PaGuy

vaflower said:


> Need some honest opinions here...
> 
> I have been married for over 10 years, my best friend has been married to her husband for over 16 years.
> My best friends birthday is coming up and I wanted to get a bunch of girls together, have dinner, some drinks, go dancing and just hang out. We were planning to make it an overnighter and the next morning get up late, do the brunch thing and return to our lives. She is a mother of a teenager and rarely gets out of the house without her husband and son. She was all for this girls night out... until...
> She told her husband we were going and he completely flipped out. He thinks it's inappropriate for her to go out without him because she'll be at a bar, club or a restaurant. He's given her the "its not that I dont trust you, I dont trust other men" speech. Now my husband has started in on the same thing, suggesting the only reason we want to go out is to act like we're single.
> I can safely and totally honestly say that this is not a frequent occurance, maybe once a year, and that we really dont pick up men or behave inappropriately, we're pretty boring. The other women going with us are married as well.
> I can also say that our husbands go out of town for guys retreats for sports for full weekends at a time and she and I both support them having an outlet.
> The reason we never go out... because the guys throw a fit EVERY time. My questions are this...
> Why are men so threatened with a girls night out?
> Whats with the double standard?
> Is this something everyone runs into or is it just us?


I have no problem with my wife going out, she can do as she wants, come and go as she pleases. I 100% trust her and never had any reason not too. Although she does it, she does not abuse it, maybe things would different if it was all the time. Why do guys get upset when there wives/girlfriend go out ? I have no idea, maybe a guilty conscious ?


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## Hope1964

PaGuy said:


> Why do guys get upset when there wives/girlfriend go out ? I have no idea, maybe a guilty conscious ?


Maybe they're a control freak?

Maybe they have mommy issues?

Maybe they really care about their spouse?

And it's conscience. Conscious is what you are _before_ your wife knocks you out cold. Just to cite a random example.


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## Lon

PaGuy said:


> I have no problem with my wife going out, she can do as she wants, come and go as she pleases. I 100% trust her and never had any reason not too. Although she does it, she does not abuse it, maybe things would different if it was all the time. Why do guys get upset when there wives/girlfriend go out ? I have no idea, maybe a guilty conscious ?


I never had a problem when mine did either, only thing is I would sometimes get upset that she was gone too often and I would miss her. It wasn't until after I discovered she was using those GNOs to hone her cheating skills that it became a problem.


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## okeydokie

sounds like they are manning up to me. 

seriously, dancing? dancing with other men? think about that


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## Tall Average Guy

PaGuy said:


> I have no problem with my wife going out, she can do as she wants, come and go as she pleases. I 100% trust her and never had any reason not too. Although she does it, she does not abuse it, maybe things would different if it was all the time. Why do guys get upset when there wives/girlfriend go out ? I have no idea, maybe a guilty conscious ?


Excellent. So you have no issues with your wife going to singles clubs to get drunk and dance with men who are looking to pick up women. And of course your wife won't be coming home, since she is getting a hotel room, so you of course are okay with not know where she will be sleeping.

The issue is not going out with friends, and trying to frame it that way is unfair. The issue is where she is going with her friends and what they are planning on doing.


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## bandit.45

> No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying.
> Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men. Locations can change without issue if that was the problem. In the past months we've tried to go to a movie, dinner, heck even lunch on a Saturday and got backtalk from that too so it's not just this one time.


Instead of moaning about how untrusting your husband is, maybe you should look at it from the opposite direction: he loves you and values you enough to be worried. Despite what Oprah tells you, jealosy has its place in a marriage.


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## FrankKissel

Tall Average Guy said:


> Excellent. So you have no issues with your wife going to singles clubs to get drunk and dance with men who are looking to pick up women. And of course your wife won't be coming home, since she is getting a hotel room, so you of course are okay with not know where she will be sleeping.
> 
> The issue is not going out with friends, and trying to frame it that way is unfair. The issue is where she is going with her friends and what they are planning on doing.


Speaking of framing it unfairly .... where did she suggest she was going to a singles club to get drunk and dance with men looking to pick up women?
You're assuming plenty of facts not in evidence, counselor. Women can have a drink without getting drunk. Women can dance without rubbing themselves up against strange men. Women can go out for a night without ending up in bed with another man. 

OP ... while your husband's concerns are not unreasonable, if you've never given him reason to doubt you, you shouldn't be too worried or upset about it. He's doing what's natural. Do your best to find a middleground. Tell him where you're going, agree to check in with him (or let him check in with you ... and be sure to answer when he does), etc.

Oh, it's laughable (and sexist) to suggest that guys' nights out or weekends away are somehow fraught with danger. Men aren't exactly the more restrained sex when it comes to playing while the cat is away.


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## vaflower

FrankKissel said:


> Speaking of framing it unfairly .... where did she suggest she was going to a singles club to get drunk and dance with men looking to pick up women?
> You're assuming plenty of facts not in evidence, counselor. Women can have a drink without getting drunk. Women can dance without rubbing themselves up against strange men. Women can go out for a night without ending up in bed with another man.
> 
> OP ... while your husband's concerns are not unreasonable, if you've never given him reason to doubt you, you shouldn't be too worried or upset about it. He's doing what's natural. Do your best to find a middleground. Tell him where you're going, agree to check in with him (or let him check in with you ... and be sure to answer when he does), etc.
> 
> Oh, it's laughable (and sexist) to suggest that guys' nights out or weekends away are somehow fraught with danger. Men aren't exactly the more restrained sex when it comes to playing while the cat is away.


THANK YOU!! The implication that women are helpless creatures incapable of choosing not to to grind on some strange man is highly offensive. Just as I'm sure men would find it rude to assume that if they have a guys night out they're automatically looking to cheat
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

vaflower said:


> No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying.
> Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men. Locations can change without issue if that was the problem. In the past months we've tried to go to a movie, dinner, heck even lunch on a Saturday and got backtalk from that too so it's not just this one time.
> 
> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, we'll have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet, no. I have to wonder why she and I both are really allowing them to dictate our plans to begin with.


I think marital boundaries should be balanced. Meaning it should not be onesided. Sometimes it is a bit of a challenge when dealing with equivalence. We are different genders and while on the one hand we want equality and fairness we do need to realize we have our differences too. 

I think this is a His Needs Her Needs thing.

There are somethings I may consider harmless. BUT I will not do because it might appear to be disrepectful to my wife. We talk.


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## Entropy3000

vaflower said:


> THANK YOU!! The implication that women are helpless creatures incapable of choosing not to to grind on some strange man is highly offensive. Just as I'm sure men would find it rude to assume that if they have a guys night out they're automatically looking to cheat
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is not about looking to cheat. It is about boundaries. It is about respect. Many husbands feel their wives are disrespecting them by putting themselves out there for other men.

BUT, you have not elaborated on the specifics of the plans.

Why is that? It matters.

If a husband is all for his wife going to the meat markets then I think he better be all for what goes down ... But just because one guy is ok with this does not mean another is wrong.

When a decent looking woman walks into a meat market, there are a very large number of men who would nail her if they could, given half the chance. Over 50% of the men? Maybe. Maybe a lot more. There might even be a line. A married woman is a prize for some. Some view married woman as easy.

Is this true for the man who walks into a meat market? Are over half the women there chomping at the bit to get into his pants and nail him? Are they doing all they can to instigate, isolate and escalate. Maybe. Over 50% of the women. Hardly. 

It is usually the men who plan to cut the prey out of the heard from their friends.

That said it is not a place for married folks to be without thier spouse IMHO.

Guys going to a sports bar is not equivalent to the meat market GNO.

BTW, what is the venue? Vegas? I am assuming not but you don't say.


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## MSP

vaflower said:


> Need some honest opinions here..


I think you're just looking for people who agree with you.



vaflower said:


> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, we'll have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet, no. I have to wonder why she and I both are really allowing them to dictate our plans to begin with.


I think you have a right to know where your husband goes and have a rough idea of what he does. But it sounds like you're just trying to validate your own desire for GNO freedom rather than having a real concern for him.



vaflower said:


> The implication that women are helpless creatures incapable of choosing not to to grind on some strange man is highly offensive.


Drunk women in the presence of people who are skilled at picking up girls may not be helpless, but are pretty close to it. 

And then it's tears and, "I never meant for this to happen!" The time to make a decision about anything that might possibly be tempting is before the temptation arises. Once you're in a tempting situation it's too late to make a clear decision. If you're drunk too, forget about it. This is why your husband doesn't want you to go.


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## heartsbeating

I agree that's it about the context too. Sorry if this sounds like being an old fuddy-duddy but I can't help but wonder why it needs to be an overnighter and ending up in a club? I'm not suggesting your intentions are anything other than "let's dance up a storm with our girlfriends" but it doesn't sit well with me either. 

I can't think of a time when my hubs has had an issue with me going out - but he does get concerned for my safety if I'll be drinking even though he knows I can take care of myself. When I went to dinner with a girlfriend, we were drinking wine and he checked in on me to make sure I was fine getting home. My friend's husband (with my friend), gave me a ride. When I arrived home, hubs looked sheepish and said he didn't want to be like a parent and he knows I can take care of myself but he loves me and wants me to be safe. I gave him a big hug and told him I know and I love that he looks out for me. 

I threw my own bachelorette party because I wanted to have that experience but I wanted it on my own terms. My friends and I ate dinner at my place then went out to see a show together. There were about 30 of us and we ended up having this whole cabaret/bar venue to ourselves. We drank there, danced with ribbon twirlers, messed about ...it was the best fun! My friends told me it was such a relief to enjoy a night out that was just innocent like this and they admitted their husbands /boyfriends were relieved to know what I'd planned. They still talk about that night years later. If someone has a bachelorette party, they tell me they loved mine so much and come up with different ideas that are fun, without needing the usual club scenario. I think letting your hair down is important but there are so many different ways to do this. 

Maybe it's a personality thing but going to a club would do nothing for me these days. I'd rather be at a restaurant with my friends where we can actually talk! Or if it's to do something fun, then go to a cabaret show. Heck even sitting up all night chatting over wine and dancing in the living room can be a laugh. It should also be noted that I'm a music snob and can't stand most of what's played in clubs. I'd rather line up music we DO like and dance up a storm that way. My friend had a party at her house, not just girls but it ended up with three of us dancing and jumping around her front room to Duran Duran. It was the best night and we were in stitches laughing together. Sorry, I'm voting on the side against clubbing.


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## heartsbeating

vaflower said:


> In the past months we've tried to go to a movie, dinner, heck even lunch on a Saturday and got backtalk from that too so it's not just this one time.
> 
> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, we'll have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet, no. I have to wonder why she and I both are really allowing them to dictate our plans to begin with.


:scratchhead: .....I don't understand why there'd be an issue with going to a movie and/or dinner? 

The idea of the husband's meeting up during the night sounds like a good idea and could be fun! I am confused by this too.


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## Lionelhutz

This man is not threatened at all by "girls night out". I encourage my wife to do it whenever the chance comes. 

But then again, it never takes place at a nightclub or bar where there is dancing. I wouldn't want to go to a boys night out at such a place.


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## Coffee Amore

Maybe it's the stage in my life or I've matured, but GNO has no allure for me anymore. After many years of not going to a GNO, I went out to a GNO with four women I know. It was so not fun. We were at a restaurant and later at a bar that was right next door. I'm not a drinker but all they did was drink a lot and laugh a lot. There wasn't any dancing or flirting. No men came over to our table. Two of the women got really wasted. I don't find that level of drunkness fun ever. 

My husband didn't mind me going on the GNO, but I've decided no more GNO for me. I'd much rather go with some girlfriends to a play, a concert or coffeeshop or even better yet do those with my husband!


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## SimplyAmorous

When I go out with my friends- or just visit them at night, out to a movie, my husband can not even sleep, he says he is worried till I hit the door, that is a little silly, but I always know if I am out late, he is missing his sleep. I like to take him everywhere anyway, my GF's get a little annoyed with me. IT has been this way since my teens. I just like to be with "my man". He never cared to go out with the guys either. 

Some people think this is not healthy, but it never hurt us... we prefer it that way.


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## Halien

vaflower said:


> No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying.
> Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men. Locations can change without issue if that was the problem. In the past months we've tried to go to a movie, dinner, heck even lunch on a Saturday and got backtalk from that too so it's not just this one time.
> 
> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, we'll have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet, no. I have to wonder why she and I both are really allowing them to dictate our plans to begin with.


I usually try to avoid GNO threads, but .... WOW!!! I'm simply amazed at how you turn around the replies here into some sort of malevolent intent, completely missing the point of what people are saying.

First off, many wives in long term relationships, who are opposed to their husbands going to the nightclub scene, would kick their husband out of the home if he suddenly did it after 15 or more years. Period. Lots of people are more open to the scene, and I respect this, but where in the world do you get the inane idea that men do this with no regard to their wives? The norm is that we try to honor the wishes of our wives, and if you are married to a guy who didn't get that memo, then maybe the thread should be reframed into one of differing expectations for each other.

Secondly, how in the world do you interpret the responses to be that people think you are going there for a hookup? You are going there, drinking, and perhap there is a chance of dancing with guys whose only intent is to sleep with you. Your husband doesn't like that. Simple as that. His issue isn't with you - its with the people there and the atmosphere. This isn't something that you guys ever talked about before getting married? 

These posts are so silly and childish. If you like the night life, marry a guy who is comfortable with that. If you spring it on him 17 years after the fact, though, it becomes a relationship changer to many people. 

I'm going to assume that he knew full well that the nightclub scene was okay for you all along. Congratulations, you two have a very trusting marriage. So, to end this circular argument in this thread, just simply remind him that this has been the norm all along for you, and you need to understand why he is suddenly no longer wanting you to go to these places. If you never did this kind of thing before, then don't you think he might be just a tad uncertain of what is going on? I've been married for 24 years. I drive an old pickup truck and work in a corporate job. Now, if I went out and bought one of those skyscraper ******* trucks with the gun rack loaded with rifles, and joined a militia group just because the guys really knew how to have a good time, it would never occur to me to start a thread about how my wife is just so inconsiderate of my own right to have fun. I mean ... really... the rules changed here.


----------



## Entropy3000

vaflower said:


> No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying.
> Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men. Locations can change without issue if that was the problem. In the past months we've tried to go to a movie, dinner, heck even lunch on a Saturday and got backtalk from that too so it's not just this one time.
> 
> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, we'll have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet, no. I have to wonder why she and I both are really allowing them to dictate our plans to begin with.


Should be only support on the "marriage friendly" GNO. So meeting up sounds good. I guess it may still depend on the meeting up place but this seems way way better of a circumstance.


----------



## shy_guy

I trust my wife a lot, and she has real freedom to go out with her friends when she needs/wants to. She is very dedicated and I know she needs a break sometimes, and I'm happy to let her go. When she goes, I always know where she's going, and she's always good to check back with me to let me know where she is. She's also very good to pick up if I call her or need her for something. She expects that I have reasonable jealousies and she acts very responsibly with this, and that really feeds my trust.

Looking at your situation, even with my wife whom I really trust:

Going with a bunch of the girls together for dinner - not a problem for me.
Having a few drinks - Okay, but I want to be sure you are safe and can get to where you are safe. Can we make a plan for this?
Go dancing - I'm starting to have a few concerns. Dancing with whom? After you have been drinking? Even though I trust her, I recognize this is entering a place of temptation and vulnerability. I'm probably going to object and ask her if she can reconsider, or if there are other options for her to have fun with her friends. She's never pushed when I objected and explained it and she thought it was reasonable.
Overnighter - with the combination that comes before this, this is a huge problem for me. 

There's too much temptation ... it can lead to something unintended far too easily, and I don't want that. I actually think it is my duty to object at this point, and I do so in partnership with her - I expect her to partner with me to help me do my part in our relationship.

As for reciprocation on my part:

There have been business trips that I have passed on because I didn't want to bring that suspicion into my marriage. Specifically, these were in the Philipines where my wife and I both knew the reputation of the bars. The guys who had travelled there before had a few souvenir pictures ... I knew what was on their minds, and not only did I not want to enter the temptation, I didn't even want her to ever think I had entered into the temptation. She first told me I should go, but when I refused and told her why, she always seemed very grateful despite telling me she trusted me and I should go.

There have also been a few times when with my colleagues when they suggested I go someplace and I answered, "No. I want to still be married when I leave here." Alcohol and temptation is a really bad combination, and I just don't want to give that a chance. So far as that goes, temptation is something I try to avoid, and I try to keep from putting myself where I would reasonably expect her to have suspicions.

For me, it is about respect and love, and here, I'll guard her suspicion and ask her to do the same for mine.


----------



## Entropy3000

Lionelhutz said:


> This man is not threatened at all by "girls night out". I encourage my wife to do it whenever the chance comes.
> 
> But then again, it never takes place at a nightclub or bar where there is dancing. I wouldn't want to go to a boys night out at such a place.


This is my situation. I encourage my wife to have time with her friends. I think it is a good thing for both of us. But my wife has never been one to push the boundaries.


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## heartsbeating

With the safety aspect in mind, my friends and I are like this with each other too. I probably meet up with a friend for dinner once every few months. Last time I met up with a friend, we shared a cab home. I'd texted with hubs that I was taking a cab with her and when I expected to be home. She dropped me off first and then I reminded her to text me when she arrived home safely too. I hadn't heard from her after 15mins, so I sent her a text. All was good - she'd forgotten to send me a message. But we're kind of like this with each other. It's been some time since we went out as a small group but the last time, I received a message asking if I'd heard from one of the girls because the person expecting to get the "arrived home safely" text hadn't heard from her. We look out for one another in that way.

I love meeting up with my friends but we don't live out of each others back pockets either. A proper good catch up every couple of months seems to be good for us. I might be side-tracking.


----------



## Entropy3000

shy_guy said:


> I trust my wife a lot, and she has real freedom to go out with her friends when she needs/wants to. I will say that she is very dedicated and I know she needs a break sometimes, and I'm happy to let her go. When she goes, I always know where she's going, and she's always good to check back with me to let me know where she is. She's also very good to pick up if I call her or need her for something. She expects that I have reasonable jealousies and she acts very responsibly with this, and that really feeds my trust.
> 
> Looking at your situation, even with my wife whom I really trust:
> 
> Going with a bunch of the girls together for dinner - not a problem for me.
> Having a few drinks - Okay, but I want to be sure you are safe and can get to where you are safe. Can we make a plan for this?
> Go dancing - I'm starting to have a few concerns. Dancing with whom? After you have been drinking? Even though I trust her, I recognize this is entering a place of temptation and vulnerability. I'm probably going to object and ask her if she can reconsider, or if there are other options for her to have fun with her friends. She's never pushed when I objected and explained it and she thought it was reasonable.
> Overnighter - with the combination that comes before this, this is a huge problem for me.
> 
> There's too much temptation ... it can lead to something unintended far too easily, and I don't want that. I actually think it is my duty to object at this point, and *I do so in partnership with her* - I expect her to partner with me to help me do my part in our relationship.
> 
> As for reciprocation on my part:
> 
> There have been business trips that I have passed on because I didn't want to bring that suspicion into my marriage. Specifically, these were in the Philipines where my wife and I both knew the reputation of the bars. The guys who had travelled there before had a few souvenir pictures ... I knew what was on their minds, and not only did I not want to enter the temptation, I didn't even want her to ever think I had entered into the temptation. She first told me I should go, but when I refused and told her why, she always seemed very grateful despite telling me she trusted me and I should go.
> 
> There have also been a few times when with my colleagues when they suggested I go someplace and I answered, "No. I want to still be married when I leave here." Alcohol and temptation is a really bad combination, and I just don't want to give that a chance. So far as that goes, temptation is something I try to avoid, and I try to keep from putting myself where I would reasonably expect her to have suspicions.
> 
> For me, *it is about respect and love,* and here, I'll guard her suspicion and ask her to do the same for mine.


Wondermous. Especially the partnership comment. We are supposed to look out for one another.


----------



## COguy

I used to not have a problem with my wife going out....till she cheated on me.

Now that I've thought about it, and been to a bar alone past midnight, I would not be comfortable with it, probably ever again.

What is the appeal of girl's going out late at night to a place ripe with single guys looking to hook up? That is not rhetorical, what is the appeal?

Is it to dance? Then go do some salsa lessons or something

Is it to drink? Drink at your houses or a restaurant or wine bar

Is it to socialize with your friends? You can't even hear at a bar/club, why not do a fun activity together or sit down at a restaurant or cafe where you can chit chat?

The ONLY appeal I see of going to a place full of single people as opposed to the above, is to get some sort of attention from strangers.

Girls don't want to dance with just their friends in a private ballet studio, they want guys watching them and paying attention to them.

They don't want to drink alone because they want to be flirt and get flirted on. They want to know they still "got it".

They don't want to go to socialize with eachother, they want to go to socialize with other people. And since they are surrounded by single men, who do you think they are socializing with?


If you disagree with what I've said, ask yourself honestly why it will only be fun to do this GNO at a bar or club and not any of the other places I listed?

You can't walk into a bar or club with a group of friends and NOT get hit on (even ugly chicks get macked on at closing time). The fact that a wife would willingly go into that situation, or enjoy going into that situation, or plan to go into that situation, tells me something is amiss there.

I feel like I'm being a d*ck about this, but really challenge me to be wrong. I want to know a good reason for going.


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## COguy

vaflower said:


> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem?


Does your problem have a problem if you told him you were going camping for the weekend with the girls? Or if you were going on a marathon trip and you had to stay overnight?

If yes, there are trust issues. If no, you need to concede that maybe the problem is your itinerary and not your husband.

Guys that go on weekend trips to vegas to hang out at strip clubs and get into sh*t, that's not kosher. But guys that go on a trip to play golf or go fishing or hunting, and barely come in contact with another person, let alone single women who want to hook up, that is a different story.


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## chillymorn

when i was a young single guy these were the milfs that you hit on.

I'm ashamed to say that it was easy pickings. I could go into a club and look around and if I didn't see any girls having a night out i would go to the next bar/club sometimes I wouldn't even buy a drink just look around and if i didn't see any older women looking like they were out with just themselves well you get the picture.

the more women in the group the better so theres no safety in numbers.thoese lady love younger guys flirting and buying them drinks and you know what most of the tme by the end of the night they were the ones putting the moves on me.

go do a girls night in and drink and talk about how you can spice up your sex life with your husband or throw a toy party but going out clubbing maybe not such a good idea.


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## Entropy3000

chillymorn said:


> when i was a young single guy these were the milfs that you hit on.
> 
> I'm ashamed to say that it was easy pickings. I could go into a club and look around and if I didn't see any girls having a night out i would go to the next bar/club sometimes I wouldn't even buy a drink just look around and if i didn't see any older women looking like they were out with just themselves well you get the picture.
> 
> the more women in the group the better so theres no safety in numbers.thoese lady love younger guys flirting and buying them drinks and you know what most of the tme by the end of the night they were the ones putting the moves on me.
> 
> go do a girls night in and drink and talk about how you can spice up your sex life with your husband or throw a toy party but going out clubbing maybe not such a good idea.


Before I was married, there was a time when I guess I was the wingman for another sailor. He was our evening shift supervisor. Well he was known for not so much focusing on the young single women but he definitely liked the MILFs. We had our times meeting young single women too, but this guy had his own agenda. I never was one to hit on the married women. I had a problem with that. He played it.

But rest assured he was a very active young man with no short supply of willing partners. He knew how to make it work for him. To him they were easy marks. So he was an old school PUA who liked the ladies.

It is easy to be that 2% guy that with little to no investment meets some attention need for a woman whose husband is only meeting 98%. I exaggerate of course but it is easy to be that guy while the husband has to meet all the other needs. Mix in some atmosphere, some alocohol and some PUA and the odds are looking up. If she is ovulating ....


----------



## CH

vaflower said:


> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what


Let me see camping, hunting and fishing trips. Oh, yeah, the hot babes just love to hit those spots. As for the Vegas, strip clubs, bars I just don't do those at all anymore. I've been to my wife's GNO before and you couldn't pay me to go again. TGIF's with a bunch of girls complaining about work, kids and their husbands, NO THANK YOU.

Now, GNO at bars, clubs, Vegas, girl's getaway, that's another story.

If your husband is hitting the bars, clubs, Vegas and partying then that's another story. But if he's doing what I'm doing then you go and FIND ME ONE HOT BABE out in the middle of the woods, no bathrooms, no showers, freezing cold at night, bugs eating you up alive and then we'll talk about double standard.

If do you GNO like my wife then I could care less. The way you make it sound is, your husband is doing it so can you. Not the kind of marriage I would want to be in but to each their own.

I'm not one to talk because I did cheat on my wife 14 years ago. But since then, I've cut out the boy's trips that would make my wife mad and the best time I have now is sitting around a campfire with a beer in hand and re-telling old stories with friends on a weekend getaway.

You disrespect your spouse (both husbands and wives) with the girls/guys night out that are used to stroke your egos. But I come home to my man, but in your mind you have pretty boys face painted over his face rocking your husband's world. Yes it's fantasizing only but eventually the lines gets blurred for some. I know, because I was there on those boys night outs at the bars/clubs and guess how I got my screen name.

I used to come home and paint the imaginary face on my wife after the bars/clubs, I liked the attention when I could pick up a girl, if made me feel like a caveman pounding my chest when I got a phone number.

You know what, in the end I realized all I needed was my wife, if I need a guys night out to recharge then I shouldn't have gotten married because if you need time to get away from your spouse to help your marriage, YOU'RE screwed (I had the F word but changed it).


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## SunnyT

Maybe it's because this is a forum for troubled marriages.... 

Your guys are being jerks. I guess you can feel all warm and mushy inside because they care. And I think you should be ecstatic that you are not required to wear a burka at all times....because another man might look at you, and want you, and little ol' you may not be able to resist.... for whatever reason. 

Wow. 

But.... since the guys (I mean YOUR guys) are being jerks about it.... then I vote for the camping idea. Girls only camping trip. It could be a blast...and there is no way the guys can reject that idea.

Or... just act grown and do what you want. Since it's a once a year issues, not a bar hopping career....then it may be worth it to listen to him gripe about it.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

SunnyT said:


> Maybe it's because this is a forum for troubled marriages....
> 
> Your guys are being jerks. I guess you can feel all warm and mushy inside because they care. And I think you should be ecstatic that you are not required to wear a burka at all times....because another man might look at you, and want you, and little ol' you may not be able to resist.... for whatever reason.
> 
> Wow.
> 
> But.... since the guys (I mean YOUR guys) are being jerks about it.... then I vote for the camping idea. Girls only camping trip. It could be a blast...and there is no way the guys can reject that idea.
> 
> Or... just act grown and do what you want. Since it's a once a year issues, not a bar hopping career....then it may be worth it to listen to him gripe about it.


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## michzz

Hope1964 said:


> Go to a spa for pedicures, then hit the mall and shop, go to a nice restaurant, and finish up at a movie or at someones house for drinks and a hot tub. Or get a hotel room with a hot tub and end up there. Skip the club.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Why do the meat market club scene? It's to get hit on -- period.

If you just want female bonding, do something that enhances that.


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## SilverPanther

FrenchFry pretty much took the words out of my mouth, actually. There are a lot of misconceptions about girls at the club, it seems. And a lot of mistrust in this thread.

Admittedly, maybe some of it is founded. Yes, hookups can happen in a club. They can also happen at the office, at school, while out at the grocery store, lots of places. If the desire to cheat is there, it'll happen. 

I would agree that clubbing, especially sans husband, on a regular basis, could be destructive to a marriage- but not that much more than if you were going to slumber parties, or going out on shopping sprees with the girls all the time. It can be hurtful if you're spending a lot of time and money away from the hubby, focusing on girl time, sure. 

I would also say that you need to be responsible with your nights out. My bachelorette party we did go drinking and then to a club. I was tipsy but not drunk, and I had girls with me that I totally trusted not to let things get out of hand. And not only did I have not even the tiniest temptation to grind with or even flirt with any guy at the club, but I was the one asking any that came around to move along. It's not really that hard to prevent yourself from being a target.

On the other hand, my friend's bachelorette party was, in my opinion, a disaster. Her MOH, who threw it, and who's always been a bit fast and loose with the men, was all about encouraging her to go wild. She gave her this teeny black dress that was two sizes too small for her to squeeze into, and it barely covered her bum. Then once she was good and plastered, she had her play stupid games like "go find random men in the bar to sign your chest" and "dance on a table" type dares, that disgusted me. And the bride to be went along with it all! She even started flirting and dancing with other men, and when I started suggesting maybe we should leave, the girl hosting got annoyed with me, and said, "No, the bride wants to stay, let her have her fun!" I ended up dragging her away from men she was just about to go off with. The whole affair was utterly disgusting. 

And if that's what your GNOs turn into, then the right thing to do is to stay away from that sort of temptation. If you know you can't hold your liquor, and that you can't control yourself while inebriated, then DONT DO IT!

But not everyone is like that, and not every group of girls that goes out to a club is going with any intention to get grinded on or propositioned. I think it's just important to know and trust your spouse, and communicate with them. Checking in with them while you're out? Definately a good idea. Offering that they can come by and join you to dance, as someone suggested? Totally cool idea. Making it clear to them where you will be, and how you will be getting home safely? Yeah.

But really this comes down to whether or not you trust your spouse. A lot of people here don't seem to. 

My mother, last year, let my dad go with his best guy friend to a strip club. She was okay with it, because she trusts him. They have been married almost 40 years. They could give a tip or two on how to make a marriage last, I imagine. 

I have always said that as long as my husband is honest with me, and as long as I trust him, I am okay with him doing just about anything. But the trust has to be there, and if it's not, we have bigger problems.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Wow, that's a controlling husband. I can go out at any time without permission. I have left for a 4 night weekend in another state and I'm planning another mini vacation to meet up with my online best friend in the next year. Hopefully, we will have mini beach vacation. My husband hunts for the weekend, so this is no different. My kids are younger too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating

SilverPanther said:


> But not everyone is like that, and not every group of girls that goes out to a club is going with any intention to get grinded on or propositioned. I think it's just important to know and trust your spouse, and communicate with them. Checking in with them while you're out? Definately a good idea. Offering that they can come by and join you to dance, as someone suggested? Totally cool idea. Making it clear to them where you will be, and how you will be getting home safely? Yeah.
> 
> But really this comes down to whether or not you trust your spouse. A lot of people here don't seem to.


I do agree with this sentiment.

I think I wrote something similarly when I first joined here on a different thread. It's one thing to get out of control, it's another to enjoy dancing with friends. It doesn't mean flirtation will happen, I agree with you there. Not everyone drinks, not everyone gets plastered when they do drink. 

What I do think though, is there are other avenues of having fun without it being around single (and let's face it) horny guys, regardless of the intention of the women going out. I also get that sometimes it's good to hear music loud and just dance - especially if you're into a certain style of music, as FrenchFry wrote she's into electronica. But why not go with the husbands in this scenario? Dance with him? Maybe it's the age I'm at now, personally being out that way doesn't appeal to me. I have my turntables at home; crowds and drunk people annoy me lol. BUT I do think the flip side to this is, respecting your spouse's boundaries. Within reason. Having a problem with not going to the movies or dinner? I can't fathom that.


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## PaGuy

Tall Average Guy said:


> Excellent. So you have no issues with your wife going to singles clubs to get drunk and dance with men who are looking to pick up women. And of course your wife won't be coming home, since she is getting a hotel room, so you of course are okay with not know where she will be sleeping.
> 
> The issue is not going out with friends, and trying to frame it that way is unfair. The issue is where she is going with her friends and what they are planning on doing.


Like I said I trust her, she doesn't go alone, and its not a weekly habit. Your always going to have horny men no matter where you go.. Think Im kidding ? Recently a guy at church, during services, hit on her. Time or place ? No way. I trust her to make the right decision in whatever situation she may be in.


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## Entropy3000

PaGuy said:


> Like I said I trust her, she doesn't go alone, and its not a weekly habit. Your always going to have horny men no matter where you go.. Think Im kidding ? Recently a guy at church, during services, hit on her. Time or place ? No way. I trust her to make the right decision in whatever situation she may be in.


Where is this church I want to make sure it is not on my wifes list of church hopping? Jello shots off of guys / girls bellies anyone? 

You can drown in a bathtub. 

That said jumping off a cruise ship in the middle of the Atlantic is a different level of risk and opportunity.

Good for you on the trust. Not sure why you trust the guys she is with but if it works for you that is awesome. Glad circumstances have nothing to do with anything. You seem to put a premium on frequency though. I agree frequent brushes with unfaithful behavior is worse than just flirting with it.

So this is a different situation. You and your wife have come to agreement. Just like myself and my wife.

So the OP however is in total disagreement with their spouse.

And yes. I remember being told the best place to pick up chicks is at church. There is something to be said for that.

And in all seriousness you are correct. A wife going out to church without her spouse and then hanging out afterwards with single men is not a good idea either.


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## ScaredandUnsure

So let me get this straight OP, you can't:
~go to a movie with your married girlfriends
~go out to dinner with your married girlfriends
~meet up for lunch with your married girlfriends
Or you get grief about it? I just want to make sure I read that right.


----------



## I Know

vaflower said:


> No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying.
> Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men. Locations can change without issue if that was the problem. In the past months we've tried to go to a movie, dinner, heck even lunch on a Saturday and got backtalk from that too so it's not just this one time.
> 
> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, we'll have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet, no. I have to wonder why she and I both are really allowing them to dictate our plans to begin with.


It is a double standard. You should put up a stink about his guy trips. 

But there is no way in hell that I am going to let my wife do an all nighter at bars. Attraction is not a choice. Tall, dark and handsome finds something clever to say to my wife. He's handsome. Wife is bored talking to her friends. There is alcohol involved. Why would I ever agree to let my wife put herself into a meat market of temptation? 

How did I meet my wife in the first place? At a party. To this day she says "oh yeah, I wasn't looking for love. I had given up on men. Then you came along". 

ARe you really that naive to wonder why the men are not going to let this happen? Or are you testing them? Do you secretly want the guys to be fighting for you? You want them to put their foot down don't you?


----------



## I Know

vaflower said:


> THANK YOU!! The implication that women are helpless creatures incapable of choosing not to to grind on some strange man is highly offensive. Just as I'm sure men would find it rude to assume that if they have a guys night out they're automatically looking to cheat
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife is very particular about who I am with and where I am going. She trusts me. I trust her. But every one of us is human. Stuff happens between the sexes at bars w/ alcohol. I am not the least offended by my wife caring about what I am up to. I look at it as a compliment that she cares so much. Not as an insult to my intelligence. Or that I am not trustworthy. 

Who is more important to please. Your GF or your husband. Take your pick. I hope you pick right.


----------



## shy_guy

vaflower said:


> My questions are this...
> Why are men so threatened with a girls night out?
> Whats with the double standard?
> Is this something everyone runs into or is it just us?


I hate trying to surmize, but honestly, reading through the thread and your two other posts, it sounds like you were still fighting with your husband about this when you came here, and it sounds like you were really looking for some good arguments to take back and give to him.

I think the men on here gave you a pretty good set of answers to your questions if you are willing to read them. Those answers came from men - not women guessing why. It might be very good to read those answers with an open mind, think from your husband's perspective, and see if you have real answers to your questions - including the possibility that your questions have flawed premises.

There are some answers that sound like maybe they gave you something to take back to your husband if you're still trying to win the argument. You might need to ask what you're trying to win, though - an argument or something bigger. It is possible to win the battle and lose the war ... choose your battle wisely and count what you have to lose ...


----------



## morituri

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Wow, that's a controlling husband. I can go out at any time without permission. I have left for a 4 night weekend in another state and I'm planning another mini vacation to meet up with my online best friend in the next year. Hopefully, we will have mini beach vacation. My husband hunts for the weekend, so this is no different. My kids are younger too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. Going hunting for the weekend is not the same as him going on a 4 night weekend to another state or wishing for a mini vacation to meet up with his online 'best friend'.


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## EleGirl

vaflower said:


> No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying. .


If my husband asked me if I was ok with him going to dinner with his buddies and then to a bar to dance and dink I would tell him sure, have a good time. But only after you move out first. 
Now if he was going out with my brothers, nephews and cousins to the same type of place I’d have no problem with it because they would not encourage or put up with any of the men in the family dancing and flirting with other women in that situation.

Change the place to a nice restraint. On dancing. You can have some drinks there. That should be more than ok.


vaflower said:


> Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men. Locations can change without issue if that was the problem. In the past months we've tried to go to a movie, dinner, heck even lunch on a Saturday and got backtalk from that too so it's not just this one time. .


If the men are giving you gals a hard time for wanting to go to the movies, dinner or lunch then the men are being unreasonable. Just tell them that you are going out and where you are going. And if they are paranoid they are welcome to drop by and spy on you. 


vaflower said:


> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, we'll have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet, no. I have to wonder why she and I both are really allowing them to dictate our plans to begin with.


Yes it’s a double standard. Tell the husbands that they now have to live under the same restrictions they require of you wives.
I like the idea of you women going out for dinner then the men joining you later for dancing. 

This makes me wonder what your husbands are doing when they all go out that they are so afraid to trust you.

The above all assumes that neither you nor your friend have ever cheated on your husbands. The answer is very different if that has happened.


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## RClawson

I had to quit reading these posts. Take a pill people! Vaflower your husband and the other wives husbands sound like knuckle dragers. 

Now I know many of you on this board have personal GNO horror stories but my wife has been on many and I have never had a worry. Of course my wife does not drink but she is a major flirt but I do not know of any instance when they have gone where they have placed themselves in an environment where anything inappropriate would happen.

Now I know a dozen plus men that have gone on hunting and fishing trips and were making detours to brothels and pick up bars and carrying on for years before one of the guys breaks down and tells his wife and the cat is out of the bag. I can count numerous divorces from these situations. I am aware of a Fire Chief the took and annual excursion with his crew and bought hookers for the entire staff on a "hunting" expedition. Guess what? Someone talked and everyone is divorced. From my personal knowledge vaflower I would be placing a GPS on your husbands car the next time he and the "boys" go on a "wildlife" adventure. 

Tell your husband to pound sand.


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## daisygirl 41

My 3 friends and I have a GNO weekend every year in dec. we have done for the last 10 years. We shop, we lunch, have a drink, have gone to clubs in years gone past, and god forbid actually got dressed up and did some dancing!! ( shock horror). Not once and I mean once in 10 years have any of us ever flirted or danced with other men. We go for girly time. To get away from men and kids and just to have some us time. Sure we have all had the odd bloke try and dance with us of buy us a drink, but guess what it's a no brainer!!! No Thankyou!! Not interested!! 

And just to put a little spanner in the works, we have ALL been cheated on by our husbands and we are still not interested! It's just a chance for us to have sone fun, complain about life in general and just be ourselves!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stonewall

SimplyAmorous said:


> I can't speak for these husbands but I will for my own...he would allow me to go but... he wouldn't like it for 2 reasons.... #1 he is worried about other men and thier intentions... and #2 ... girls going out alone -things can happen. If drinking & dancing is involved, even more so. Guys know how other guys ARE...and in the bar scene, probably 75% are looking to hook up..
> 
> When we go to a bar, we go with friends and always together, the bar scene annoys me a little, you walk in the door it seems like a spotlight has been put on you, the whole place is checking you out ...near makes you feel like a peice of meat. At least the smaller bars , it seems this way to me.


Same here SA! :iagree:


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## daisygirl 41

But just because the men are checking the women out it doesnt mean that we respond! Please men give us oime credit. Most of us do have some self control!

If a woman is going to cheat there are many opportunities out there. And lets be honest here, most of the men who try and pick up women in bars are desperate jerks! Look at all the waywards on her, its just a guess but i bet the majority of cheating goea on in the work place or oldflamesreunited.com!!


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

morituri said:


> No. Going hunting for the weekend is not the same as him going on a 4 night weekend to another state or wishing for a mini vacation to meet up with his online 'best friend'.


Yes, it surly is. Especially when he goes to Alaska every year to every other year, but a 10 night stay. He, too, meets up with his best friend or goes with a group of guys. I had the best time of my life meeting my online friend and staying on the Queen Mary for 4 nights! I see no difference. We both use fly miles, so the cost is the same. We plan to meet again hopefully on the FL beaches next year since I'm disabled with a neck injury and can not walk far. I can sit on the beach or relax in the ocean. He does a 4 night hunting trip with 7 friends every year, then his trip to Alsksa. I'm certainly entitled to my time off too, which he says I should go more often.

Funny thing is we are trying to set up our best friends on a date. Who knows, maybe they will hook up and my online best friend will move here with her kids!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

RClawson said:


> Tell your husband to pound sand.


I don't think this is a healthy attitude in a pro-marriage forum. Telling my wife to pound sand would usually be followed by a quick trip to the divorce attorney. 

However, if the issue was that this guy can't trust her to go anywhere, an addendum that was tacked on after the GNO argument failed to gain ground, is well out of the scope of just a night at the club, in my opinion. Sounds like a marriage of two people who have some very serious issues - a woman trapped by a husband who shows no trust and respect, and a man who wants to lock her away. Marriage should be all about middle ground, but with trust and respect.

Next month, my wife is going to Tokyo with the 'girls'. We both get six weeks off every year, so she spends half her time in her own pursuits with friends. For her, its more about places like the national gallery of art, NY city, or time with friends. Together, we go to places we both enjoy. I also have the annual trip with my brother to a large indian reservation for a spirit walk. But for both of us, there are places where we've crossed off for the sake of unity. Just because one our group analysts wants to see me blush as I watch her show in her dad's strip club, I'm not going to push an area that would make my wife insecure. She doesn't do nightclubs, a thing that we settled well before uttering those two words of "I do". Still, I admire some of the posters who find unity in going there, and deal honestly about the risks. At the same time, I'm a knuckle dragger when it comes to the nightlife. If I want fun in the nightlife, I'm up for a good play, or even go out on the wild side and crash the local community center on dance night so my wife and I can dance a horrible waltz. Some of the other women I briefly dated, who liked the GNO lifestyle would've never considered actually walking down the isle with me, which is the real decision point in this whole drama.


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## Tall Average Guy

FrankKissel said:


> Speaking of framing it unfairly .... where did she suggest she was going to a singles club to get drunk and dance with men looking to pick up women?
> You're assuming plenty of facts not in evidence, counselor. Women can have a drink without getting drunk. Women can dance without rubbing themselves up against strange men. Women can go out for a night without ending up in bed with another man.


Really? I don't see me assuming any facts not in evidence. When was the last time you went to a dance club, junior high? Men are there looking to dance with women, not just leaning up against the wall. They may intend in the cold light of day to only dance amongst themselves, but that is not will happen once they get there. Men and women will be dancing around them and at some point they will be dancing with men. They won't automatically start grinding and flirting, but it is not an unrealistic possibility. They are also planning to drink enough that they did not want to drive but instead get a hotel room. Drinking that much impairs judgement.

No one said this automatically means they will fall in bed. But is sure as hell not unreasonable for the husbands to object.


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## sinnister

I've always believe that along with facebook, one of the biggest threats to a marriage is a womans friends.

The vast majority of women who have GNO do so to have a good time bonding with their female friends. But it just takes that one bad seed friend to ruin things. I'm speaking from observational experience...it does happen. And next thing you know you go from having a wife who wanted a GNO once in a blue moon, to hitting the bars every weekend with her "friends". Then it becomes "you're trying to control me". Then it's "ILYBNILWY". Then it's getting the texting bill.......


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## Tall Average Guy

vaflower said:


> No one is sharing their wife with another man, no other men would be going with us. That's an awfully presumptuous thing to assume but I suppose that must be what our husbands are thinking and not saying.
> Its just the ladies for a night out. The point is to go out with the girls, not pick up men. Locations can change without issue if that was the problem. In the past months we've tried to go to a movie, dinner, heck even lunch on a Saturday and got backtalk from that too so it's not just this one time.


This last part was added after I responded. Yes, it is a problem if they are preventing an sort of GNO (or even a girls day out). My issue was with the specific venue and activities, not the concept. My wife has GNO's every couple of months, were she get's together for dinner, sees a movie or checks out an event with a friend (last one was a cooking class). They are great and I encourage her to go. 



> Isnt it a bit of a double standard if a husband can do as he wishes, go where he wishes, be gone all weekend doing goodness knows what and if she wants one night out it's a problem? Now my husband is backing hers saying he wants to go. I said fine, we'll have girls night for a couple hours and you come meet us when you want. You would think that would dispell any fears and yet, no. I have to wonder why she and I both are really allowing them to dictate our plans to begin with.


So again, why don't you object to this? Why do you put up with it?


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## Entropy3000

RClawson said:


> I had to quit reading these posts. Take a pill people! Vaflower your husband and the other wives husbands sound like knuckle dragers.
> 
> Now I know many of you on this board have personal GNO horror stories but my wife has been on many and I have never had a worry. Of course my wife does not drink but she is a major flirt but I do not know of any instance when they have gone where they have placed themselves in an environment where anything inappropriate would happen.
> 
> Now I know a dozen plus men that have gone on hunting and fishing trips and were making detours to brothels and pick up bars and carrying on for years before one of the guys breaks down and tells his wife and the cat is out of the bag. I can count numerous divorces from these situations. I am aware of a Fire Chief the took and annual excursion with his crew and bought hookers for the entire staff on a "hunting" expedition. Guess what? Someone talked and everyone is divorced. From my personal knowledge vaflower I would be placing a GPS on your husbands car the next time he and the "boys" go on a "wildlife" adventure.
> 
> *Tell your husband to pound sand.*


In all seriousness, if I had a situation where I felt my wife was disrespecting me by going out to meat markets, getting drunk, dancing with other men and staying out all night and she told me to pound sand, that would be the end of the marriage. I would not deserve such disrespect. 

You say your wife does not drink. Neither does mine. I enjoy drinking my self. But taking the drink out of this scenario is a major point. The husbands object to the mood altering use of alcohol going to meat markets to dance with other men and being out all night. You admit your wife is a flirt. How would you feel if she started taking up drinking and staying out all night in meat markets. Then she tells you to go pound sand. Good luck with that my friend. Alcohol is a major part of the issue here. It is about getting the women drunk enough to lower their inhibitions. It is part of the Kino escalation process of breaking down incremental small boundaries until you have her doing things would would not normally be comfortable with. Alcohol matters.


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## ocotillo

vaflower said:


> My best friends birthday is coming up and I wanted to get a bunch of girls together, have dinner, some drinks, *go dancing *and just hang out.....
> 
> ...He thinks it's inappropriate for her to go out without him because she'll be *at a bar, club or a restaurant.*


I guess there's some confusion over what "_go dancing...at a bar, club or a restaurant_" actually means. Maybe it would help if you could elaborate (?)


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## Entropy3000

Halien said:


> I don't think this is a healthy attitude in a pro-marriage forum. Telling my wife to pound sand would usually be followed by a quick trip to the divorce attorney.
> 
> However, if the issue was that this guy can't trust her to go anywhere, an addendum that was tacked on after the GNO argument failed to gain ground, is well out of the scope of just a night at the club, in my opinion. Sounds like a marriage of two people who have some very serious issues - a woman trapped by a husband who shows no trust and respect, and a man who wants to lock her away. Marriage should be all about middle ground, but with trust and respect.
> 
> Next month, my wife is going to Tokyo with the 'girls'. We both get six weeks off every year, so she spends half her time in her own pursuits with friends. For her, its more about places like the national gallery of art, NY city, or time with friends. Together, we go to places we both enjoy. I also have the annual trip with my brother to a large indian reservation for a spirit walk. But for both of us, there are places where we've crossed off for the sake of unity. Just because one our group analysts wants to see me blush as I watch her show in her dad's strip club, I'm not going to push an area that would make my wife insecure. She doesn't do nightclubs, a thing that we settled well before uttering those two words of "I do". Still, I admire some of the posters who find unity in going there, and deal honestly about the risks. At the same time, I'm a knuckle dragger when it comes to the nightlife. If I want fun in the nightlife, I'm up for a good play, or even go out on the wild side and crash the local community center on dance night so my wife and I can dance a horrible waltz. Some of the other women I briefly dated, who liked the GNO lifestyle would've never considered actually walking down the isle with me, which is the real decision point in this whole drama.


Yes, the OP did a bait and switch. One picture was painted that had to do with meat markets, being out all night, dancing with men and drinking heavily. It was inferred if not stated directly. While requests for elaboration came there was no elaboration so we were never challenged with our thoughts on what that was about.

Then it switches to yeah well any kind of GNO effectively. That is a whole other issue.

Was this purposely a bait and switch?

But this always happens on this topic. 

I have over the top trust in my wife. If after 16 years of marriage she wanted to go out clubbing, dancing with other men, drinking, and staying out all night like the original post, I would let her know that that crossed my bundaries and would not be acceptable to me. I love my wife way more than myself, but that would not be the behavior of the wife I love.

Folks obviously have different boundaries. That is fine. What matters is whether the couples boundaries are even compatible. The OP presumably was asking for advice. Then switched the scenario. So she is bing told to tell her hubby to go pound sand. Whihc is fine. It is basically saying, divorce him over this. But she should make sure what she is telling him to pound sand over. The two scenarios are not remotely the same thing.


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## Hope1964

Do we know yet exactly what the proposed GNO entails?

And do we know yet why anyone going on a GNO would choose to go to a club and drink and dance, rather than a nice restaurant and/or a quiet pub somewhere? The whole 'girls night out' thing sounds rather close to 'girls gone wild' if you ask me. I just do not understand why any happily married woman would even WANT to go out to a rowdy club with her girlfriends.


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## Acorn

After being in a marriage with little emotional investment made by my wife, the thought that she might actually object if I put myself in a situation where other women are involved would seem like a real treat. 

Almost as if she cared about me and the marriage.

Tell her to pound sand? Heck no, I'd probably give her a hug. I guess it depends on your perspective.


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## RClawson

Entropy3000 said:


> In all seriousness, if I had a situation where I felt my wife was disrespecting me by going out to meat markets, getting drunk, dancing with other men and staying out all night and she told me to pound sand, that would be the end of the marriage. I would not deserve such disrespect.
> 
> You say your wife does not drink. Neither does mine. I enjoy drinking my self. But taking the drink out of this scenario is a major point. The husbands object to the mood altering use of alcohol going to meat markets to dance with other men and being out all night. You admit your wife is a flirt. How would you feel if she started taking up drinking and staying out all night in meat markets. Then she tells you to go pound sand. Good luck with that my friend. Alcohol is a major part of the issue here. It is about getting the women drunk enough to lower their inhibitions. It is part of the Kino escalation process of breaking down incremental small boundaries until you have her doing things would would not normally be comfortable with. Alcohol matters.


Your point is taken Entropy but I will bet you dollars to donuts in this situation the ones everyone should be concerned about are the husbands that and the "Hunters and Fisherman" who seem to be living under a double standard.


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## Entropy3000

Tall Average Guy said:


> Really? I don't see me assuming any facts not in evidence. When was the last time you went to a dance club, junior high? Men are there looking to dance with women, not just leaning up against the wall. They may intend in the cold light of day to only dance amongst themselves, but that is not will happen once they get there. Men and women will be dancing around them and at some point they will be dancing with men. They won't automatically start grinding and flirting, but it is not an unrealistic possibility. They are also planning to drink enough that they did not want to drive but instead get a hotel room. Drinking that much impairs judgement.
> 
> *No one said this automatically means they will fall in bed. But is sure as hell not unreasonable for the husbands to object.*


I am not saying that they will have intercourse with anyone. I am saying that doing what they said they would do is unfaithful to me period if they are going against their husbands feelings. 

They are putting themselves in a risky situation. They know the men want to nail them. They enjoy dressing seductively. They enjoy the attention. They enjoy lowering their inhibitions with alochol. They enjoy the sexual tension with the men. Ok fine. Lets just not make it that they are bonding with the girls only. The men are a key piece to the fun. It is absolutely about being with and being seen by the men. Sooooo. If this is not the case then ladies, remove the men from the situation. Simple. A GNO is a Girls Night Out. Many want to make it a Girls Night Out with other men. Some husbands are fine with that. If so, go for the gold.

Instigation, Isolation and Escalation.

The women have reduced the approach anxiety by isolating themselves from thier hubbys in time and space. So they are not near thier mate. By saying they are not coming home, now they are isolated over a known time. If they are at a hotel, what would be the harm in the group having drinks with the guys back at the hotel bar. The guys may not be invited but they will know what hotel the ladies are staying in. So the guys will be there. Hey why not share a cab. It is a sequence of seemingly innocent events that leads to big trouble. It is a Kino escalation. 

The men will attempt to isolate the women one at a time from the group. The wingman approach is often used. So it's like, "where is Susan?" "I dunno she went outside with Tony." "I think they were going to go get some coffee." "Susan is not used to drinking this much so Tony is helping her out ...." Tony is telling Susan how lovely she is and how if she was his wife he would treat her special. He has been looking for someone liker her for a long time. Tells her a sad story about a lost love, all the while running a Kino, by brushing her arm and holding her hand and in general breaking down her barriers. The alcohol has been a little too much for Susan. She is now isolated with Tony. Her hsuband would be livid if he knew but she is a strong independent woman and can take care of herself. Her husband is jealous, controlling and insecure after all. Not like Tony at all. Tony is fun and really knows how to relate to a woman. By the time they head back to someones hotel he has his arm around her helping her walk. She loves her husband and would never cheat on him but this is really a nice guy who knows how to treat a woman and he is kinda hot too. He has wonderful eyes and is in much better shape than her husband. She loves Tony's confidence. Too bad her husband spends so much time working or with his buddies ... Besides she has not had such a good time since she left college when she was single.

Part of the allure is the flirting with the danger of the situation. The men know this and appreciate the women taking the risk as it is indicator of some level of interest in men other than their husbands. That makes them a target. Some men speciialize in these ladies.

Now while this is over the top, so is this thread ... now. What happens when they get back to the hotel is besides the point. This was some fun stuff for Susan. Next time she goes on a GNO she will either see that she made some mistakes this time and is the wiser for it. OR, she keeps pushing the boundaries. Once boundaries start sliding there really are no longer boundaries. There becomes a false sense of security. This time maybe Tony and her exchanged phone numbers and such and no bodily fluids. But Susan is a little more into this lifestyle than before. Her hubby is a little less exciting. She is a little less satisfied with her life. Sure she may go home and bang the heck out of her hubby. But is it that she misses and appreciates him or is it because she was so excited over playing with the boys. I am not judging this. Not really. My issue is with the couple being in agreement on these activities. Some husbands don't care that their wives get all fired up in this way because they may end up having some better sex afterwards. 

Realistically the women are just more likely to have one or more of them degrade themselves badly in public. Like vomiting in the gutter. The unfaithfulness is probably going to be more of a fantasy as they dance up close with the guy that is moving against her. Maybe there is some groping going on and a little dry humping. Perhaps some making out. But this scenario can fire off in a very dangerous direction. Drinks can be altered. Easily. No I do not think a person has to intend to cheat to be unfaithful. So some folks just view this as a bit of fun. YMMV.

I remember a good friend of mine the year before his divorce that he told his wife as she left for Vegas not to do anything she could not wash off.

I reiterate GNOs are essential and healthy. But what a GNO entails matters and should be agreed upon by the couples IMO. And again it works both way.


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## Entropy3000

RClawson said:


> Your point is taken Entropy but I will bet you dollars to donuts in this situation the ones everyone should be concerned about are the husbands that and the "Hunters and Fisherman" who seem to be living under a double standard.


You may be right. I suspect our feelings on this stuff are pretty close to each others. 

I absolutely think that each of the scenarios have their own answers.

I bet these guys are jerks frankly. I can't tell though.

IF they are out having guy time on trips away and they begrudge their wives some time with their friends they are idiots.

I think most of us would agree that there needs to be no double standard and the freedoms of the couple need to be equivalent. This can get tricky as the genders are a bit different. Meaning women may indeed like clubbing and the guys may want to go get lap dances. I see a married woman dancing with a guy and a man getting a lap dance about the same thing. It is not absolutely the same. I actually see the dancing has having more potential for mischief than the lap dance. But I digress.

I think that maybe just maybe this stuff is a symptom of bigger problems folks.

I do think that the proposal that involved meeting up with the husbands later on was not a bad one at all. Big issues are likely to happen late in the the evening at the after party rather than in the first couple of hours. Plus there is a throttling of potential crazy behavior if everyone knows they are meeting up later.


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## Hope1964

FrenchFry said:


> I love to dance, I love electronic music and when I get the chance to slough off mom gear and get sexified I jump on it. I don't know how old you are, but going out to the with the girls is fun and young feeling and free in a wonderful way.
> 
> ....... I get dressed up cute so my girls will compliment me and/or compare like guys do over new sporting gear/tools/whatever. Both groups drink. Mostly we can hold our liquor and not do stupid **** but incase one of us gets more sloshed than planned, we have a network of care. Yeah, men may hit on us but we laugh it off and joke about what a total skeeze that guy was. We dance with each other and manuever each other away from the gross butt humpers. Trips to the bathroom/outside to smoke are always hilarious. There is always drama in the club that is fun to observe/gossip about/sometimes pop off on. At the end of the night, we all hail each other cabs or pile in our DDs car and me personally I jump on my husband thankful that I can go home to an awesome man who will both cuddle and screw my drunk ass properly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is this the only activity that makes you feel sexy and young and free then? I am still wondering why, if your husband DID have a problem with you acting this way, you would still do it.


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## Entropy3000

FrenchFry said:


> Man, that PUA bull is so insidious.
> 
> *You are looking to cheat or you aren't. *The amount of alcohol it would take to get me to cheat is enough so that it is rape. Pass out, blackout can't remember drunk in which a man shouldn't be trying to have sex with a woman period.
> 
> I don't get that drunk, but even when drinking if a guy tries to isolate me or my friends its a huge red flag and we intervene as nessecary because it's not ok. Thing is we are more than aware of how sleezy men can be around drunk women and in my group we just DON'T LET IT HAPPEN. Not every woman is so easily manipulated by drinking in a club with men. I guess that is definitely where relationship dynamics and communication and boundaries really come into play. Everyone really is different.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We just fundamentally disagree on this. That is ok. What a boring world if we all agreed.

Also just what consitutes cheating? I think ther is a whole continuum of behavior that may or may not lead to intercourse itself. For me I think cheating occurs way before this. It is not just about trying to intervene with penetration.

I see the following:

inappropriate behavior / decisions --> unfaithfulness --> Cheating

I believe that more often than not cheating starts with simple bad decisions and poor boundaries. No doubt there are people who just want to cheat from the get go. You can't even reason with them. Where inappropriate becomes unfaithful is a matter of opinion. I think once you start going against your spouse in anyway by definition you are unfaithful to them. But that is just me. So best to work things out prior to the behavior. The spouse may very well be unreasonable.

I think taking an all or nothing view of this is very risky because the boundary is around looking to cheat. It may take into account unfaithfulness which at least for me is a big issue. Then again I would not be for my wife dating other men even if it was theoretical possible to ensure that intercourse would not take place ... which of course is absurd.
I think the dating would be a big enough issue.

PUA is designed to seduce women who are drinking in clubs. It works often enough. It is about risk. The world is shades of gray. One way of handling shades of gray is to define boundaries. You have stated some in that you don't drink much and your friends have your back.

Why put yourself in that situation? Take the sleazy men out of the equation.

The OP scenario involved having a place to crash afterwards. This inferred being out all night and drinking heavily. Kinda naughty fun. I get that allure. So you already tweaked the situation by saying you don't drink much.

So what exactly are you doing at the club? Are you dancing with men? Close dances? Can we assume this is not the trendy dance clubbing with everyone grinding? What are you actually doing there? Yeah I know having fun and binding with your friends. You cannot do that without the men? The men are the issue you know. Whatup with that? Just some marriage healthy flirting?

But your husband is cool with this? If so then great for you guys. I am only defending a spouses right to be concerned. You are good to go.
Have fun and be safe.


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## Lon

FrenchFry said:


> You are looking to cheat or you aren't.


I disagree with this too. It is like playing russian roulette but its not your turn yet, it is easy to say "I can't die" because you are not holding the gun. When its your turn is when you will wish you had set a boundary to not even play the stupid game.


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## CH

Look, some people need to get away from their spouses because it's what they need.

While others like to spend time with their spouse because they married them for that exact reason.

There is no wrong or right, like others have said it's whatever boundaries a couple has set up to make their marriage work.

If you need to go out to a bar/club to drink and have men hit on you (just to say no to them) and stroke your ego and make you feel better, that's what you need and that's your life not mine or anyone else. For the men it's to go to bars/strip clubs to oggle at the hotties and hit on them.

Me, at this point in life, I enjoy just sitting at home watching a movie with the wife and kids or just being around the house with everyone.

I get my once a year FF draft at a local bar with the guys (we go so much that I have snuck my little girl in their once or twice, yes it's that tame of a place), hunting trips and that's about it. Once in a blue moon an old buddy might be in town and if I'm not busy I'll go hang out with them at their house or a restaurant.

If you still need the thrill of OMG guys/girls still want me and I've still got it then that's what you need. Have at it, you're big girls/guys and you won't cheat on your spouse but needing verification from other men/women to make yourself feel young and vibrant is pretty sad, to me that is.

I'm overweight (not obese yet), balding, not as good looking like when I was in my 20's or early 30s. And you know what, I could care less what others think of me now. I have a great wife, rotten and spoiled kids :rofl::rofl: and we live a comfortable life. That's all that counts for me right now.

I never could understand those married couples who say they just need time apart to recharge and make their marriage better. Why get married in the 1st place if you need time apart to be happier together, that just boggles my mind.

And to those that married social lepers, well you married them for a reason. If you're not happy that they can't meet your needs, leave, why stay. Oh I love him but he's does nothing, just sits at home, plays on the computer, watches sports, doesn't want to go out and do nothing with me, so I need GNO to make myself feel happy, see what's wrong there.

In the end, we all can agree to disagree, there is no wrong or right because I don't live your life and you don't live my life.


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## Entropy3000

cheatinghubby said:


> Look, some people need to get away from their spouses because it's what they need.
> 
> While others like to spend time with their spouse because they married them for that exact reason.
> 
> There is no wrong or right, like others have said it's whatever boundaries a couple has set up to make their marriage work.
> 
> If you need to go out to a bar/club to drink and have men hit on you (just to say no to them) and stroke your ego and make you feel better, that's what you need and that's your life not mine or anyone else. For the men it's to go to bars/strip clubs to oggle at the hotties and hit on them.
> 
> Me, at this point in life, I enjoy just sitting at home watching a movie with the wife and kids or just being around the house with everyone.
> 
> I get my once a year FF draft at a local bar with the guys (we go so much that I have snuck my little girl in their once or twice, yes it's that tame of a place), hunting trips and that's about it. Once in a blue moon an old buddy might be in town and if I'm not busy I'll go hang out with them at their house or a restaurant.
> 
> If you still need the thrill of OMG guys/girls still want me and I've still got it then that's what you need. Have at it, you're big girls/guys and you won't cheat on your spouse but needing verification from other men/women to make yourself feel young and vibrant is pretty sad, to me that is.
> 
> I'm overweight (not obese yet), balding, not as good looking like when I was in my 20's or early 30s. And you know what, I could care less what others think of me now. I have a great wife, rotten and spoiled kids :rofl::rofl: and we live a comfortable life. That's all that counts for me right now.
> 
> I never could understand those married couples who say they just need time apart to recharge and make their marriage better. Why get married in the 1st place if you need time apart to be happier together, that just boggles my mind.
> 
> And to those that married social lepers, well you married them for a reason. If you're not happy that they can't meet your needs, leave, why stay. Oh I love him but he's does nothing, just sits at home, plays on the computer, watches sports, doesn't want to go out and do nothing with me, so I need GNO to make myself feel happy, see what's wrong there.
> 
> In the end, we all can agree to disagree, there is no wrong or right because I don't live your life and you don't live my life.


Just plain awesome. Pure gold. :smthumbup:


----------



## FrankKissel

Lon said:


> I disagree with this too. It is like playing russian roulette but its not your turn yet, it is easy to say "I can't die" because you are not holding the gun. When its your turn is when you will wish you had set a boundary to not even play the stupid game.


Wait ... like Russian roulette? Really? Do you know how patronizing that is? Do you really believe women are such weak-minded creatures that they just can't help themselves from having sex with any guy who comes along and offers the right game? That cheating, for a woman at least, is random act?
Sheesh. If that's true, why be upset about a cheating wife? After all, these fragile-minded, hormonally driven creatures just can't help themselves.

Someone in this thread said earlier that attraction is not a choice. That's largely true. But what one chooses to do about that attraction IS a choice. Just because a guy throws it out there doesn't mean a woman is going to grab on and go for a ride.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FrankKissel

cheatinghubby said:


> Look, some people need to get away from their spouses because it's what they need.
> 
> While others like to spend time with their spouse because they married them for that exact reason.
> 
> There is no wrong or right, like others have said it's whatever boundaries a couple has set up to make their marriage work.
> 
> If you need to go out to a bar/club to drink and have men hit on you (just to say no to them) and stroke your ego and make you feel better, that's what you need and that's your life not mine or anyone else. For the men it's to go to bars/strip clubs to oggle at the hotties and hit on them.
> 
> Me, at this point in life, I enjoy just sitting at home watching a movie with the wife and kids or just being around the house with everyone.
> 
> I get my once a year FF draft at a local bar with the guys (we go so much that I have snuck my little girl in their once or twice, yes it's that tame of a place), hunting trips and that's about it. Once in a blue moon an old buddy might be in town and if I'm not busy I'll go hang out with them at their house or a restaurant.
> 
> If you still need the thrill of OMG guys/girls still want me and I've still got it then that's what you need. Have at it, you're big girls/guys and you won't cheat on your spouse but needing verification from other men/women to make yourself feel young and vibrant is pretty sad, to me that is.
> 
> I'm overweight (not obese yet), balding, not as good looking like when I was in my 20's or early 30s. And you know what, I could care less what others think of me now. I have a great wife, rotten and spoiled kids :rofl::rofl: and we live a comfortable life. That's all that counts for me right now.
> 
> I never could understand those married couples who say they just need time apart to recharge and make their marriage better. Why get married in the 1st place if you need time apart to be happier together, that just boggles my mind.
> 
> And to those that married social lepers, well you married them for a reason. If you're not happy that they can't meet your needs, leave, why stay. Oh I love him but he's does nothing, just sits at home, plays on the computer, watches sports, doesn't want to go out and do nothing with me, so I need GNO to make myself feel happy, see what's wrong there.
> 
> In the end, we all can agree to disagree, there is no wrong or right because I don't live your life and you don't live my life.


Is it possible to be more condescending?
Maybe OP just likes hanging out and dancing with her girlfriends. Maybe she likes getting dressed up once in a while (IIRC she does this once a year?) and listening to club music.
Can't be that simple, I guess, so you have to play amateur psychologist and subscribe all these other negative motivations (ego stroking, seeking verification, etc.).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

FrankKissel said:


> Is it possible to be more condescending?
> Maybe OP just likes hanging out and dancing with her girlfriends. Maybe she likes getting dressed up once in a while (IIRC she does this once a year?) and listening to club music.
> Can't be that simple, I guess, so you have to play amateur psychologist and subscribe all these other negative motivations (ego stroking, seeking verification, etc.).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, your post to his is way more condescending.

:smthumbup:

Being unfaithful once a year once a decade or twice a week. Sure one seems worse than the other. Does not mean unfaithful behavior just on occasion a good thing.

I think if you are fine with this activity for your wife that is very fine. But what you are saying is that another husband has no right for concerns. 

I do think your view will play well with the ladies who like to go clubbing.

I think it is good to have the you go girl sentiment put out there.


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## ScaredandUnsure

I was listening to a radio talk show a while back, and the subject was a rather interesting one. It was about "hunting trips" and what went on at these ones. 

No, there wasn't single women, nor was there strip clubs. It was a bunch of friends who got really drunk and....had a circle jerk! They did this on a regular basis, never tell anyone (especially their wives) and they had been doing this for years. Nothing to suspect. There was quite a few callers, not just one or two. 

I just thought it was kind of interesting.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

FrankKissel said:


> Wait ... like Russian roulette? Really? Do you know how patronizing that is? Do you really believe women are such weak-minded creatures that they just can't help themselves from having sex with any guy who comes along and offers the right game? That cheating, for a woman at least, is random act?
> Sheesh. If that's true, why be upset about a cheating wife? After all, these fragile-minded, hormonally driven creatures just can't help themselves.
> 
> Someone in this thread said earlier that attraction is not a choice. That's largely true. But what one chooses to do about that attraction IS a choice. Just because a guy throws it out there doesn't mean a woman is going to grab on and go for a ride.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you are conveniently ignoring that people drink at these clubs. When people drink, they can become weak minded (and that includes women). I know women in college who went out with the intent of having fun and then slept with a guy. Regretted the choice when they woke up, but certainly did not go out intending to do so. Alcohol lowers inhibitions and impairs judgement. It makes women (and men) to step over boundaries they might not otherwise. To think otherwise is foolish.


----------



## FrankKissel

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes, your post to his is way more condescending.
> 
> :smthumbup:
> 
> Being unfaithful once a year once a decade or twice a week. Sure one seems worse than the other. Does not mean unfaithful behavior just on occasion a good thing.
> 
> I think if you are fine with this activity for your wife that is very fine. But what you are saying is that another husband has no right for concerns.
> 
> I do think your view will play well with the ladies who like to go clubbing.
> 
> I think it is good to have the you go girl sentiment put out there.


So you believe that cheating is a foregone conclusion for a woman who goes out to a club one time a year? Yikes. Might as well wrap the womanfolk in burqas (yes, that's hyperbole).

And, actually, if you read my first post in this thread I said there's nothing wrong with his concerns and encouraged her to find a middleground with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

FrenchFry said:


> Man, that PUA bull is so insidious.
> 
> You are looking to cheat or you aren't. The amount of alcohol it would take to get me to cheat is enough so that it is rape. Pass out, blackout can't remember drunk in which a man shouldn't be trying to have sex with a woman period.
> 
> I don't get that drunk, but even when drinking if a guy tries to isolate me or my friends its a huge red flag and we intervene as nessecary because it's not ok. Thing is we are more than aware of how sleezy men can be around drunk women and in my group we just DON'T LET IT HAPPEN. Not every woman is so easily manipulated by drinking in a club with men. I guess that is definitely where relationship dynamics and communication and boundaries really come into play. Everyone really is different.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE
> 
> I agree completely!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CH

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I was listening to a radio talk show a while back, and the subject was a rather interesting one. It was about "hunting trips" and what went on at these ones.
> 
> No, there wasn't single women, nor was there strip clubs. It was a bunch of friends who got really drunk and....had a circle jerk! They did this on a regular basis, never tell anyone (especially their wives) and they had been doing this for years. Nothing to suspect. There was quite a few callers, not just one or two.
> 
> I just thought it was kind of interesting.


If anyone of our friends suggested this or tried to do this, he won't be coming home from the trip with us......

To Frank, I just gave my opinion and that's it. I really don't care what others do with their lives, they have to live it not me. I'm friends with anyone and everyone if they want to be friends with me, doesn't matter race, religion, sexual preference, etc...

If someone asks me about something I'll tell them what i think and leave it at that. If you don't agree then you don't agree, we're all adults and have our own values and beliefs but I won't hate or be upset at you for what you believe in.

Well unless it deals with child porn, drugs, murder, rape, etc, then we've got a problem.


----------



## shy_guy

FrenchFry, you sound very passionate about this.

All I can say is that some of us know from very painful experience in many areas that things we did not set out with intent to do is exactly what we wound up doing. It's a lesson we should learn regardless of what area of our lives we did this, and we should recognize our humanity when entering into a place of high temptation.

The question was, "why would guys do this?" I think many guys have answered why. I don't think you're going to convince them otherwise, and that may be in part due to experience they are not willing to share. You can disagree whether or not it is right for them to think that way - it's your life. Can you understand why they might think that, though?


----------



## Lon

FrankKissel said:


> Wait ... like Russian roulette? Really? Do you know how patronizing that is? Do you really believe women are such weak-minded creatures that they just can't help themselves from having sex with any guy who comes along and offers the right game? That cheating, for a woman at least, is random act?
> Sheesh. If that's true, why be upset about a cheating wife? After all, these fragile-minded, hormonally driven creatures just can't help themselves.
> 
> Someone in this thread said earlier that attraction is not a choice. That's largely true. But what one chooses to do about that attraction IS a choice. Just because a guy throws it out there doesn't mean a woman is going to grab on and go for a ride.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frank, it is clear to both of us on the many threads we both comment on that our viewpoints and experiences are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. It was not all that long ago (less than a year) that I felt so strongly as you do, that if you love someone, and feel that they love you, there is no reason to assume you would ever intentionally do something that knowingly hurts your partner... everyone has weaknesses and makes mistakes, but in a healthy marriage you don't question each other that way because it only fuels paranoia which fuels discontent, which fuels hurtful behaviors, which fuels deception, lying and utter contempt. The thing is, other sources can also get you to that point of contempt, such as not actively protecting your relationship, not defining or enforcing appropriate boundaries, not communicating etc.

I will admit I am totally biased, if I sound patronizing it is because my cheating wife caused me to lose by blind faith in marriages, and trust in the basic goodness in people, and mostly I realize that my hypothesis for life (which was very similar to what yours seems to be) has been disproven. In this I have also found so many other examples of betrayed spouses, men in particular, who have been burned in the same way and we're trying to figure out if the problem was us, our spouse, or just the way we viewed attraction and relationships. We all realize that the old way we saw things (blind trust as you seem to staunchly support) was naive. What we are professing here are some universal truths that we could only learn the hard way, we are not here to vent any disdain for strong women, we are here because we know how much pain it causes when innocent assumptions suddenly become hundreds of teeth on the bonesaw that suddenly tears its way through a loyal spouse, and hopefully someone can be spared that unecessary pain by us contributing here.

You have never been cut with that bonesaw, so please just listen when we say it is the most agonizing thing a person will ever face. My russian roulette analogy was just that, and you missed the point that the only way to win is to not play. Unless winning means getting thrills at the risk of the ones you leave behind at home.


----------



## Entropy3000

FrankKissel said:


> So you believe that cheating is a foregone conclusion for a woman who goes out to a club one time a year? Yikes. Might as well wrap the womanfolk in burqas (yes, that's hyperbole).
> 
> And, actually, if you read my first post in this thread I said there's nothing wrong with his concerns and encouraged her to find a middleground with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shades of gray my friend. And if you look at my point it is not about cheating. It is about inappropriate behavior and unfaithfulness.

If one woman in fifty puts out for these guys does that make it a foregone conclusion. One in a thousand? How about one in ten?

I bet I could get on a clear straight highway at 20 miles an hour and close my eyes for some period of time. It is not a forgone conclusion that I would kill myself though I might deserve it. Sober I might be able to hanlde this for quite some time as I could tell to some extent if I was getting off onto the shoulder.

So now lets add a little speed ( car speed Frank ), some alcohol and some curves ( not female curves but maybe there is synergy there too ). I can handle it. I am not weak. I would argue the weakness is in doing this stupid thing to begin with however. But I might pull it off. It is not a foregone conclusion. It is about risk versus reward. 

It would be a real thrill. So maybe this is ok on a controlled track. I should be free to do this if I want.
For some men their wives would be all for it. Just make sure the insurance is paid up.

You love the whole burqa thing don't you. There is life Frank between the burqa and the drunken GNO with other men. The over whelming majority of people in the world live in between those two extremes. 

Hey why not just go to Hedonism VI once a year. It's just once a year. Leave your burqa home and your bathing suit too. Just harmless fun. 

I actually give people more credit than this. People are not so weak that they have to decide between these two options. They can make adult choices in the gray areas. Boundaries help. Talking to your spouse helps.


----------



## shy_guy

FrenchFry said:


> LOL yeah I am passionate about this. I actually do get where the guys who have issues with this and I absolutely get why people would be uncomfortable with girls/guys night out. I can't count the times I've been on the recieving end of some heavy flattery from men who for some reason see me as vulnerable, and you are right it absolutely doesn't stop them with a ring on your finger. I don't think I'm particularly unique though when I say I don't care/buy into it, because I do know where my bread is buttered.
> 
> I'm passionate about this because I ended relationships because of this fundamental disagreement as to exactly what me and my friends are doing. It was definitely the right thing to do because if a person is going to be hurt no matter what steps I take to ensure a pleasurable cheat free time, we weren't right for each other. My husband gets it, so I married him
> 
> I'm also passionate about it because I don't think it's fair to throw all women under the same bus when it comes to going out. I just want to make it clear, hey, some of us really like dancing and don't give a crap about the other men.
> 
> For the record, I am a twenty-something, my husband is a thirty something and we don't go out much at all anymore because we have diapers to buy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand. We have different sets of standards in place. In my long post earlier, I told how I passed on taking certain trips, or how I turned down certain venues with colleagues and why. I'm more proactive because at 47, I have a few places where I've done what I said before and done exactly what I was absolutely sure I would not do. I hurt other people with what I did on at least one of those, too. I'm familiar with my humanity. I don't want to have the same experience when my wife and family can be hurt so badly by my actions, so I will be proactive in not entering into that temptation. To me, it's not a matter of "Does she trust me," so much as it is a matter of "Don't give it the chance to happen."

We have a lot of fun. Two of our kids are out of college and only one is still at home, and we're now financially where we can have a lot more freedom and enjoy a lot more. I love the family I have. I love it that my wife will partner with me to keep me out of temptation. I just do the same thing for her. I don't consider that she's being controlling when she partners with me like this - I appreciate the extra safety net. I'm not sure I would have gotten to this point in my marriage (27 years) if I had not been willing to accept partnership from my wife in areas like this. Fortunately, I can look back now and be happy that I can wonder if I would be here rather than being broken, or worrying about broken kids because I didn't. 

That's pretty much how I look at it. I trust her. She trusts me. We partner with each other proactively when we see a potential danger. I appreciate that. She appreciates that. It's not controlling, it's respect.

Cheers.


----------



## Entropy3000

FrenchFry said:


> LOL yeah I am passionate about this. I actually do get where the guys who have issues with this and I absolutely get why people would be uncomfortable with girls/guys night out. I can't count the times I've been on the recieving end of some heavy flattery from men who for some reason see me as vulnerable, and you are right it absolutely doesn't stop them with a ring on your finger. I don't think I'm particularly unique though when I say I don't care/buy into it, because I do know where my bread is buttered.
> 
> *I'm passionate about this because I ended relationships because of this fundamental disagreement as to exactly what me and my friends are doing.* It was definitely the right thing to do because if a person is going to be hurt no matter what steps I take to ensure a pleasurable cheat free time, we weren't right for each other. My husband gets it, so I married him
> 
> I'm also passionate about it because I don't think it's fair to throw all women under the same bus when it comes to going out. I just want to make it clear, hey, some of us really like dancing and don't give a crap about the other men.
> 
> For the record, I am a twenty-something, my husband is a thirty something and we don't go out much at all anymore because we have diapers to buy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good stuff FrenchFry. We need to follow our personal priorities and so on for sure. 

It seems your hubby went into this with eyes wide open ( not eyes wide shut which is an interesting movie for its own reasons ). Coolness.

Part of why I chose my wife is that she was not into this lifestyle. I was ready for a change myself. If at some point out of the blue she wanted to start doing this I would have special concern if for nothing else than the big change.

So in your opinion, if a woman were to make such a change after 16 years of marriage and started doing all nighters in the manner described by the OP might she be any different than yourself? I know there would be indiviudal differences but all else equal might she be less savvy? Serious question.


----------



## FrankKissel

Lon said:


> Frank, it is clear to both of us on the many threads we both comment on that our viewpoints and experiences are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. It was not all that long ago (less than a year) that I felt so strongly as you do, that if you love someone, and feel that they love you, there is no reason to assume you would ever intentionally do something that knowingly hurts your partner... everyone has weaknesses and makes mistakes, but in a healthy marriage you don't question each other that way because it only fuels paranoia which fuels discontent, which fuels hurtful behaviors, which fuels deception, lying and utter contempt. The thing is, other sources can also get you to that point of contempt, such as not actively protecting your relationship, not defining or enforcing appropriate boundaries, not communicating etc.
> 
> I will admit I am totally biased, if I sound patronizing it is because my cheating wife caused me to lose by blind faith in marriages, and trust in the basic goodness in people, and mostly I realize that my hypothesis for life (which was very similar to what yours seems to be) has been disproven. In this I have also found so many other examples of betrayed spouses, men in particular, who have been burned in the same way and we're trying to figure out if the problem was us, our spouse, or just the way we viewed attraction and relationships. We all realize that the old way we saw things (blind trust as you seem to staunchly support) was naive. What we are professing here are some universal truths that we could only learn the hard way, we are not here to vent any disdain for strong women, we are here because we know how much pain it causes when innocent assumptions suddenly become hundreds of teeth on the bonesaw that suddenly tears its way through a loyal spouse, and hopefully someone can be spared that unecessary pain by us contributing here.
> 
> You have never been cut with that bonesaw, so please just listen when we say it is the most agonizing thing a person will ever face. My russian roulette analogy was just that, and you missed the point that the only way to win is to not play. Unless winning means getting thrills at the risk of the ones you leave behind at home.


Lon,

First, I don't at all mean to demean or minimize your experiences. If I've done that, I apologize.

That said, I do sometimes feel it necessary to offer views/opinions that run contrary to the general tone around here. That tone, which understandably results from so many of the frequent posters having been betrayed at some time in some way, is one that everyone is either cheating, or in serious peril of cheating, and that nearly every situation is fraught with danger.

I can understand - and sympathize - how so many feel that way, but I can also point out that situations like your own, as terrible as they are, fortunately are the exception. The fact is the large majority of people don't cheat and the vast majority of the situations described as dangerous around here - GNOs, business trips, etc. - don't end in infidelity. I'm sure that's little comfort to those who've been betrayed, but it is what it is.

Look no further than the thread started by the guy who was worried about his wife's upcoming business trip. Turns out, there was nothing for him to worry about. Yet people here had the guy so riled up and so convinced that he was about to be betrayed that he actually _moved out_ on his wife of 25 years. Think about that for a moment. A bunch of strangers who've never met this man or his wife, and know nothing about them other than what he's chosen to disclose here, arguably put his marriage in peril. Or at the least put it in a bad, bad place. That's scary. It's even scarier that after he's come back and said the situation has been resolved favorably, some are still telling him his wife may be cheating on him. Ugh.

I don't for a second mean to suggest that my opinion is any more - or less - valid than anyone else's. And, like anyone else's view around here, you're free to disagree or ignore mine.

Lastly, please don't assume I don't protect my marriage, have boundaries, communicate or have a naive hypothesis of life. To the contrary, I work very hard to protect my marriage, have boundaries and communicate incessantly.
Best wishes.


----------



## Toffer

For me, the hardest part of this whole issue is the fact that there is the overnight stay in the hotel. I personally have no problem with my wife going out with her girlfriends for some drinks and maybe a meal. They typically don't do clubs but may go to a place with a dance floor but they do prefer to go somewhere they can talk.

They've also taken turns having it at each other's homes and again, it's the conversation and comradiere they are seeking. they aren't dressing up in clubbing clothes and even exposing themselves to any hint of trouble.

Even though I trust my wife 100%, I have to say I'd be a little concerned if she was planning on drinking AND staying over night. Through in the clubbing issue and while I know I could trust her, I too know that there will be guys hitting on her because she is beautiful and fun!

Do it locally, and have your man be the one to pick you up at 1 AM when the bar closes


----------



## Toffer

sinnister said:


> I've always believe that along with facebook, one of the biggest threats to a marriage is a womans friends.
> 
> The vast majority of women who have GNO do so to have a good time bonding with their female friends. But it just takes that one bad seed friend to ruin things.
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> After some of my wife's GNOs, she has relayed stories to me about some of the things her girlfriends have said about their significant others. Some things so bad that you wonder why are they even together? I could see that with the right amount of booze thrown in and the safe haven of a hotel room, it isn't too much of a stretch to see something happening.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, guys are no better! But as people often have said, what if the situation was reversed and the roles too? What if we were in a society where woman were the pursuers and men the ones sought after? Would it bother the OP if her husband announced that he was going clubbing (wearing those tight jeans that show off his package), drinking and staying overnight knowing that women would want to grind his behind???


----------



## Lon

Frank, thank you for your well composed and thoughtful response. I certainly never felt like you have been demeaning in any way, though I do feel that many commenters including you do tend to minimize the value of comments by betrayed spouses on here, usually citing that majority of people are not cheaters and thus suggestions of such behavior is not well-founded.

While my experiences have changed my perspective drastically since before I was cheated on, I personally think contributions from betrayed spouses are an invaluable gift, that frequently get dismissed, often from new posters who think we are just jaded people that want to drag everyone else down.

I do agree with you that some people love to come on here and throw the affair card all over the place, even when I too think it is unecessary and sometimes even destructive. From the numerous threads I've read here though I can so easily see the pattern of red flags, the script, and so when it is so painfully obvious I will not hesitate to make sure those whom spouses are in all likelihood cheating get the 2x4 to the head when they need it. I also don't like to pull that card unless their spouse is taking material from the cheaters script. In fact in many threads I have often suggested to suspicious OP's that their fears are unfounded (one today even).

The reason I'm on this thread is partially because the club scene is a trigger for me, but mostly because I know just what the bars/nightclub scene is really about and it bothers me that so many people dismiss the threat that kind of atmosphere poses to relationships... COguy said it best way back, just one person tell me what the benefit of these places are? It really isn't just about "dancing" but that seems to be the innocent justification that is frequently used, clubs are about a sexual formula used to get people to loosen their inhibitions and their wallets.

I agree that every couple has the right to define their own boundaries, for some having a spouse that parties without them at the club is acceptable even it if is risky. And also Frank, I apologize for calling you naive, I don't know you and was just getting defensive about feeling like my opinion was being minimized due to my experience.


----------



## Entropy3000

FrenchFry said:


> Whoops, having a smartphone doesn't mean the user is.
> 
> I read the OP a little closer Entropy and it's clear that yeah, we are talking about two pretty different scenarios. I'd be concerned for any overnight trip my husband took doing an activity in which he'd never done before...like if he was all "I'M GOING HUNTING!" especially as he's an animal lover. Her husband has a point there.
> 
> I can't speak as to what her motivation is besides "going out," but I do sense her frustration with her husband/his friend in the uh...*vagblocking* of any activity that she and her girlfriend may try to do, and that this may be an escalation which isn't exactly a positive state of mind to be going out with and may in fact make a person emotionally susceptible.
> 
> In her case, I think there are red flags and precautions that she could take to make her husband more comfy (meeting him later, not crashing overnight, checking in etc.) or change the activity all together but if he keeps denying any time out at all, I'd hate to be all "pound sand" but...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


vagblocking .... love it and very fair comment.

Yeah if her hubby was denying her being with her friends period for activities then I agree she has to make a decision about being with this guy at all.

Maybe her point was really about the guys. It probably was. She felt if they did certain things she could too. I agree with that. But just what really are the guys doing? They may very well be jerks. Perhaps as some have stated the focus should be on what the husbands are doing.


----------



## Halien

FrankKissel said:


> Wait ... like Russian roulette? Really? Do you know how patronizing that is? Do you really believe women are such weak-minded creatures that they just can't help themselves from having sex with any guy who comes along and offers the right game? That cheating, for a woman at least, is random act?
> Sheesh. If that's true, why be upset about a cheating wife? After all, these fragile-minded, hormonally driven creatures just can't help themselves.
> 
> Someone in this thread said earlier that attraction is not a choice. That's largely true. But what one chooses to do about that attraction IS a choice. Just because a guy throws it out there doesn't mean a woman is going to grab on and go for a ride.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What I find so interesting is that for every assumption we make when it comes to our risks of cheating, we can always find exceptions, thats why I really like to see posts where people really understand what trust means in their marriage. Some agree to behave conservatively, but some like the night life. Yet both extremes, if they really have an understanding of trust in their marriage, have great marriages.

Talking about exceptions, I had once mentioned how in college I passed by a room where the young woman had firm boundaries, but didn't understand her alcohol tolerance, and she was being raped. The guy had taken her from a club to his nearby co-ed dorm. I was the paper guy, and broke into the dorm room after hearing her confused protests, and ended up staying with her at the hospital until she was okay with me leaving. Yet you see people every day who know exactly how much they can tolerate, and stop there.

I trust my wife of 24 years completely. She is incredibly firm in her fidelity. She is so attractive, and in a medical field where advances were really common in the early years, so I had to learn to trust her (Okay, so I did almost break a surgeon's wrist when he kept ignoring her warnings).

There are risks in certain situations, and the testosterone-driven side of me really wants to stake my territory sometimes, but I personally refuse to cross the line into accepting the statement that women cannot help themselves in certain situations. Attraction isn't some undeniable entity that always overcomes even a married woman. If she has her eyes on what's really important to her, the response to attraction becomes a choice.


----------



## PaGuy

RClawson said:


> I had to quit reading these posts. Take a pill people! Vaflower your husband and the other wives husbands sound like knuckle dragers.
> 
> Now I know many of you on this board have personal GNO horror stories but my wife has been on many and I have never had a worry. Of course my wife does not drink but she is a major flirt but I do not know of any instance when they have gone where they have placed themselves in an environment where anything inappropriate would happen.
> 
> Now I know a dozen plus men that have gone on hunting and fishing trips and were making detours to brothels and pick up bars and carrying on for years before one of the guys breaks down and tells his wife and the cat is out of the bag. I can count numerous divorces from these situations. I am aware of a Fire Chief the took and annual excursion with his crew and bought hookers for the entire staff on a "hunting" expedition. Guess what? Someone talked and everyone is divorced. From my personal knowledge vaflower I would be placing a GPS on your husbands car the next time he and the "boys" go on a "wildlife" adventure.
> 
> Tell your husband to pound sand.


Your so right, ALL men have done this, myself included. THANK YOU. These guys are so hypocritical its ok for them to go do guy stuff, such as bars/women etc. etc. But the minute the wife wants to, it becomes time to be a *ick. WTF, you guys need to lighten up and deal with your insecurity issues. Realize this, if she is going to cheat on you, its going to happen no matter what you say or do.


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## SolidSnake

I agree with the other posters who say that its the drinking/dancing/overnight aspect of this that is a concern. Of course it goes both ways. Boundaries should be equal and agreed to for both partners. He should not be out doing whatever with his friends if it bothers you. 

I literally just declined a bachelorette party invitation that involved something similar....going to Atlantic City overnight and out clubbing. I immediately made the decision not to go without asking my fiance what he thought. Even if he thought it was ok, I don't feel its appropriate for me to be out in a club environment without him and out overnight makes it even worse. Plus, I have never liked bachelorette parties, so bourgeois!


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## I Know

PaGuy said:


> Your so right, ALL men have done this, myself included. THANK YOU. These guys are so hypocritical its ok for them to go do guy stuff, such as bars/women etc. etc. But the minute the wife wants to, it becomes time to be a *ick. WTF, you guys need to lighten up and deal with your insecurity issues. Realize this, if she is going to cheat on you, its going to happen no matter what you say or do.


Hey PAGuy. speak for yourself. I have not gone on hunting trips, much less to brothels. I would venture that most men on this board have not gone to a prostitute. 

Too, most of the men on this board said that the OP's H was being unfair. 

And yes my wife will cheat if she is going to. But I am not going to help her do it by condoning a boozy night out on the town. She will also do the boozy GNOif she wants to. But she has a choice. Make her friends happy or make me happy. For 25 years she has chosen well. 

Insecurity? Feel free to mock your fellow men here. Doesn't bother me. My wife enjoys my protective streak.


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## PaGuy

Hey I KNOW. I dont think you get what I was saying. I never been to a prositute, nor had ever touched another woman. Have I been to drunken nights with guys at bars, strip clubs etc etc.. YES I have, not proud of it, but I cannot deny it. That being said, a lot of guys do that.. apparently you don't.. which im cool with that ! But these guys get so jacked off when there ladies go out and have a good time, and always think that women are cheating if they leave the house. "they" need to get over there insecurity.


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## Halien

PaGuy said:


> Hey I KNOW. I dont think you get what I was saying. I never been to a prositute, nor had ever touched another woman. Have I been to drunken nights with guys at bars, strip clubs etc etc.. YES I have, not proud of it, but I cannot deny it. That being said, a lot of guys do that.. apparently you don't.. which im cool with that ! But these guys get so jacked off when there ladies go out and have a good time, and always think that women are cheating if they leave the house. "they" need to get over there insecurity.


Lots of guys do that? Gotta stop hanging around that neighborhood, friend. Go out into the places with guys who have careers, not just the ones who get a paycheck. The ones who worry about how they'll pay for their kid's tuition, and think an evening is almost perfect if their wife is in a good mood, and smiles. Seriously, out of the thousands of men where I work, the norm is that we might have a quick drink after work once in a while. Going "out" is on the golf range, although for me, its hanging out at the boxing club I fund. Far more likely that our wives are the ones who like to go out at night with their friends. But I'm one of the boring lots. My wife's adventures are usually at places like coffee shops, or to hear a local author read the first chapter of a new novel.


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## PaGuy

I Know said:


> Hey PAGuy. Make her friends happy or make me happy. For 25 years she has chosen well.
> 
> Insecurity? My wife enjoys my protective streak.


Do you not agree that time spent with other female friends is important to your wife ? I dont mean drunken stooper.


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## PaGuy

I dont do it anymore, but am guilty. You would be surprised the type of guys that do this and keep it hidden from the wives.. Well put together in middle class, with jobs, mortgage and worries. Not the stereotypes you describe. You don't think after the golf trip, a stop at the strip club, has never happened ? And forgot to tell the wives they were there ?


Halien said:


> Lots of guys do that? Gotta stop hanging around that neighborhood, friend. Go out into the places with guys who have careers, not just the ones who get a paycheck. The ones who worry about how they'll pay for their kid's tuition, and think an evening is almost perfect if their wife is in a good mood, and smiles. Seriously, out of the thousands of men where I work, the norm is that we might have a quick drink after work once in a while. Going "out" is on the golf range, although for me, its hanging out at the boxing club I fund. Far more likely that our wives are the ones who like to go out at night with their friends. But I'm one of the boring lots. My wife's adventures are usually at places like coffee shops, or to hear a local author read the first chapter of a new novel.


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## Halien

PaGuy said:


> You would be surprised the type of guys that do this and keep it hidden from the wives.. Well put together in middle class, with jobs, mortgage and worries. Not the stereotypes you describe.


I know. But I do think that there are a couple of distinct things that drive jealousy in men in this situation, and it isn't really fair to lump most guys into the category of those who have different standards for their wife than themself. Some guys are too immature to trust their wife, and that is shameful. Still, many of the threads that come up on this site are the ones where a wife of X number of years suddenly pushes the issue of being able to go out to places like this, and the husband just thought that they had built their boundaries upon a different set of standards. In a society where we take such a discliplined approach to college for a career, doing our taxes, scheduling vacations, following hobbies, its just incredible that people who post threads like this put almost zero effort into discussing their boundaries before deciding to marry. 

Because my wife said that she did not think it was right for her to go to a dance club without me, doing so after 24 years would be a pretty cut and dry situation where she is changing the rules. Didn't even hear the OP mention their marital expectations even once. She could've ended the thread on page one if she said that he was okay with GNO in their discussions before marriage. Believe me, you don't have to talk about every single place a husband and wife can possibly go, you can create a simple agreement of boundaries in a five minute discussion. When we married, my wife and I didn't know that I would spend a month or more combined in China, India, Europe and south america every year, and that I would be pressured to enjoy the night life with supplier executives. But no naked ladies showing their private parts to me was covered, so I pass on the strip clubs, or the after-dinner entertainment that they occasionally send to my room before being forever black balled from our supply base.

So, the wife of the guy who goes to strip clubs, or hires prostitutes, might post a GNO thread. I couldn't help but question why the GNO part was more worrisome to her. Give him an ultimatum, or kick him to the curb and marry a guy who valued her as she deserves to be valued.


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## PaGuy

halien said:


> i know. But i do think that there are a couple of distinct things that drive jealousy in men in this situation, and it isn't really fair to lump most guys into the category of those who have different standards for their wife than themself. Some guys are too immature to trust their wife, and that is shameful. Still, many of the threads that come up on this site are the ones where a wife of x number of years suddenly pushes the issue of being able to go out to places like this, and the husband just thought that they had built their boundaries upon a different set of standards. In a society where we take such a discliplined approach to college for a career, doing our taxes, scheduling vacations, following hobbies, its just incredible that people who post threads like this put almost zero effort into discussing their boundaries before deciding to marry.
> 
> Because my wife said that she did not think it was right for her to go to a dance club without me, doing so after 24 years would be a pretty cut and dry situation where she is changing the rules. Didn't even hear the op mention their marital expectations even once. She could've ended the thread on page one if she said that he was okay with gno in their discussions before marriage. Believe me, you don't have to talk about every single place a husband and wife can possibly go, you can create a simple agreement of boundaries in a five minute discussion. When we married, my wife and i didn't know that i would spend a month or more combined in china, india, europe and south america every year, and that i would be pressured to enjoy the night life with supplier executives. But no naked ladies showing their private parts to me was covered, so i pass on the strip clubs, or the after-dinner entertainment that they occasionally send to my room before being forever black balled from our supply base.
> 
> So, the wife of the guy who goes to strip clubs, or hires prostitutes, might post a gno thread. I couldn't help but question why the gno part was more worrisome to her. Give him an ultimatum, or kick him to the curb and marry a guy who valued her as she deserves to be valued.


right on !


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## that_girl

That's a little extreme (the OP). Does her husband go out with friends? I bet he does 

I bet he does more when he's out than drink with the boys too.

His reaction is kinda lame. especially since it's not an every week/month thing.

I haven't had a girls night in almost a year.  Oh well. My day will come and when it does, Hubs will help me get ready LOL


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## a14sha

PaGuy said:


> I have no problem with my wife going out, she can do as she wants, come and go as she pleases. I 100% trust her and never had any reason not too. Although she does it, she does not abuse it, maybe things would different if it was all the time. Why do guys get upset when there wives/girlfriend go out ? I have no idea, maybe a guilty conscious ?


@PaGuy, you gave the best reply. It is about trust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrK

a14sha said:


> @PaGuy, you gave the best reply. It is about trust.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are correct. It IS 100% about trust. That, and the women that take advantage of it. I CAN'T BELIEVE I used to let my wife go out "dancing" with her married wingwoman.


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## ocotillo

Well again, we come back to exactly what "*go dancing...at a bar, club or a restaurant*" actually means. 

Did it mean ladies dancing solo or with each other because they just like to dance?

Or did it mean accepting requests to dance with sleazy guys who's primary intent in asking is to score with a married woman?​
If it's the latter of the two extremes, then it is more than just a question of trust. 

Even if a man (Or woman) trusted their wife (Or husband) totally and absolutely because they know that she (Or he) would absolutely, positively, unequivocally and under no circumstances ever allow the advances of a stranger to progress beyond just a dance or two, the fact remains that most married men (And women) are simply not comfortable with the situation itself.

A "bar, club or restaurant" is not a wedding or the Fred Astaire school of dance. Maybe I'm being an aged prude here, but I know for a fact that neither my wife nor myself would be comfortable with the other away for an evening as a willing participant in that atmosphere. 

The OP sidestepped requests to clarify and vanished, so it doesn't look like we're ever going to know now exactly what was meant.


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## I Know

PaGuy said:


> Hey I KNOW. I dont think you get what I was saying. I never been to a prositute, nor had ever touched another woman. Have I been to drunken nights with guys at bars, strip clubs etc etc.. YES I have, not proud of it, but I cannot deny it. That being said, a lot of guys do that.. apparently you don't.. which im cool with that ! But these guys get so jacked off when there ladies go out and have a good time, and always think that women are cheating if they leave the house. "they" need to get over there insecurity.


Gotcha PA. And I have no moral issues w/ strip clubs, prostitution or any of that. That should be taken care of before marriage tho 

I actually think the problem here is not insecure men. It's that the females (in this case) are not demanding more equality. To me it sounds like the guy has her right where he wants her. He's getting his way. 

Double standard for sure. But in the guys defense, I know a lot of women that kinda sorta complain about the man's possessiveness. Yet these same women were the kind of women that always seem to have a boyfriend or husband that was strict and possessive. The submissive women always seem to hook up w/ the possessive men. And they both do it willingly. I know tons of women that are never without a boyfriend. Even if he's abusive, they have to have someone.


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## that_girl

I hate clubs. It's a meat market. I have no desire to go to one...I never really liked them anyway.

I hate bars. I do like lounges though...and dive bars. I go with my girl every so often just for a drink and some live music...karaoke too!! 

My friend took me to some shi-shi place for my bachelorette party and it was SO UNCOMFORABLE! It was a place where single people go to hook up...you could tell. Dancing, drinking...NOT my style. My friends were asking if a stripper was coming. I said if there was, I was out of there. Gross. 

But that's just me. Girls night for me and my friends means we hang out at our dive (where everyone knows us) or one of our homes (our hubs makes himself scarce after a while) with some wine and cheese and chocolate  Good times.


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## FirstYearDown

vaflower said:


> Need some honest opinions here...
> You will always get honesty on TAM.
> 
> I have been married for over 10 years, my best friend has been married to her husband for over 16 years. Congrats on being married for so long!
> 
> My best friends birthday is coming up and I wanted to get a bunch of girls together, have dinner, some drinks, go dancing and just hang out. We were planning to make it an overnighter and the next morning get up late, do the brunch thing and return to our lives. She is a mother of a teenager and rarely gets out of the house without her husband and son. She was all for this girls night out... until...
> She told her husband we were going and he completely flipped out. He thinks it's inappropriate for her to go out without him because she'll be at a bar, club or a restaurant. He's given her the "its not that I dont trust you, I dont trust other men" speech. Now my husband has started in on the same thing, suggesting the only reason we want to go out is to act like we're single.
> I can safely and totally honestly say that this is not a frequent occurance, maybe once a year, and that we really dont pick up men or behave inappropriately, we're pretty boring. The other women going with us are married as well. If your girl's nights are only once a year and you do not go to pick up men, your husbands are being unreasonable. Unless you or your friends have had affairs in the past, I see nothing wrong with what you are doing. Husbands can be possessive; my husband is a bit insecure because of our age difference.
> I can also say that our husbands go out of town for guys retreats for sports for full weekends at a time and she and I both support them having an outlet.
> The reason we never go out... because the guys throw a fit EVERY time. My questions are this...This is unfair and too controlling! If they can go out, so should you!
> Why are men so threatened with a girls night out?
> Because they are insecure about their wives going to meet markets, no matter what you say.
> Whats with the double standard? All men have double standards, sweets.
> Is this something everyone runs into or is it just us?I don't like clubs or bars, so we do not have this problem. I know my husband doesn't like me to dress in a revealing manner.


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## that_girl

My best friend and I plan to go to Ireland in about 5 years. Our husband are invited but we're going whether they come or not. We've been planning for over 10 years. LOL.

Neither of our husband's care. And it will be about 2 weeks away. So...it's about trust.


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## Batman64

Sounds to me like these Husbands need to take their skirts off! Love is love and it will conquer all. They need to realize that and let you live a little.


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## michzz

shy_guy said:


> FrenchFry, you sound very passionate about this.
> 
> All I can say is that some of us know from very painful experience in many areas that things we did not set out with intent to do is exactly what we wound up doing. It's a lesson we should learn regardless of what area of our lives we did this, and we should recognize our humanity when entering into a place of high temptation.
> 
> The question was, "why would guys do this?" I think many guys have answered why. I don't think you're going to convince them otherwise, and that may be in part due to experience they are not willing to share. You can disagree whether or not it is right for them to think that way - it's your life. Can you understand why they might think that, though?


:iagree::iagree:


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## Goldmember357

SimplyAmorous said:


> When I go out with my friends- or just visit them at night, out to a movie, my husband can not even sleep, he says he is worried till I hit the door, that is a little silly, but I always know if I am out late, he is missing his sleep. I like to take him everywhere anyway, my GF's get a little annoyed with me. IT has been this way since my teens. I just like to be with "my man". He never cared to go out with the guys either.
> 
> Some people think this is not healthy, but it never hurt us... we prefer it that way.


That's great you sound like a great woman and he sounds like a great man. Who would of thought that on this forum such a thing and such a good marriage might exist. 


To TS .... um never mind it would be pointless to explain


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## Entropy3000

PaGuy said:


> Your so right, *ALL men have done this, myself included. * THANK YOU. These guys are so hypocritical its ok for them to go do guy stuff, such as bars/women etc. etc. But the minute the wife wants to, it becomes time to be a *ick. WTF, you guys need to lighten up and deal with your insecurity issues. Realize this, *if she is going to cheat on you, its going to happen no matter what you say or do*.


Men who do such things are pretty low life bottom feeders as far as I am concerned. Maybe you hang out with the wrong folks.

If a woman or man is hell bent on cheating then drop thier sorry butt. Are we talking about women like this? I thought not. I think we are talking about women who are taking risks becuase they like the attention and the fun of it all. They put themselves in a situation that is disrespectful to their husbands. Or women who assume their men are doing this type of thing and want to level the field. 

A husband has every right to expect his wife not to put herself out there with other men under these circumstances. Some feel they can play this game. So it is not about them just deciding to cheat. It is unfaithful behavior period. It works both ways. No free pass for the guys.

So if a woman wants to get drunk, be out all night, dance and in general be groped by other men, I think husbands have the right to object. If they don't then fine.

I think a husband who is afraid to object is very insecure. Not much of a man really.


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## CantBeJustMe

I've been married 16 years. And although we so far from perfect, I can't even spell it, she would never go to a night club or singles type bar for a GNO. I'd say she goes about every month, maybe every other? It's normally a bar / grill near our place, places we go to as couple. If it's a dance club, she'd want me to go. She told me that's just about respect. 

I completely trust my wife. As for other guys, if she wants to stray, she's going to stray. But putting herself in a situation to make bad choices (alcohol + lots of men on the prowl) just doesn't make sense to me, or obviously to her either.

My biggest worry is who is doing the driving. Normally I will drop her and several of her friends off, then come and get them when they call. Normally this ends up being around 11pm-12am and it's my wife (Always on her day off - off the next day - so they plan these pretty far out) who calls and it's only her and maybe one or two of her friends still wanting to stay out. So the last few times I've gone and picked them up and we all go out somewhere else.

Many times this ends up with one or two of her friends crashing at our house (we have the room so it's no big deal - doesn't happen often anyway) and bonus is, this is usually one of the times I know I'm getting lucky!! :rofl:

Those are to be encouraged, definitely doesn't happen enough.

But hey what do I know.......

Taking Back the Reins


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## I Know

vaflower said:


> Need some honest opinions here...
> 
> Is this something everyone runs into or is it just us?


Well VAflower? What's the conclusion? 
We all want to know how you resolved this!


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## Freak On a Leash

vaflower said:


> Need some honest opinions here...
> 
> I have been married for over 10 years, my best friend has been married to her husband for over 16 years.
> My best friends birthday is coming up and I wanted to get a bunch of girls together, have dinner, some drinks, go dancing and just hang out. We were planning to make it an overnighter and the next morning get up late, do the brunch thing and return to our lives. She is a mother of a teenager and rarely gets out of the house without her husband and son. She was all for this girls night out... until...
> 
> She told her husband we were going and he completely flipped out. He thinks it's inappropriate for her to go out without him because she'll be at a bar, club or a restaurant. He's given her the "its not that I dont trust you, I dont trust other men" speech. Now my husband has started in on the same thing, suggesting the only reason we want to go out is to act like we're single.
> 
> I can safely and totally honestly say that this is not a frequent occurance, maybe once a year, and that we really dont pick up men or behave inappropriately, we're pretty boring. The other women going with us are married as well.
> I can also say that our husbands go out of town for guys retreats for sports for full weekends at a time and she and I both support them having an outlet.
> 
> The reason we never go out... because the guys throw a fit EVERY time. My questions are this...
> Why are men so threatened with a girls night out?
> Whats with the double standard?
> Is this something everyone runs into or is it just us?


I don't believe anyone has an issue with this. :scratchhead: It sounds like a lot of fun to me, not a bunch of "cougars" prowling around looking for a pick up.

Why does everyone assume that you will be looking to pick up men or that you will LET men pick you up? You aren't capable, mature, adult women who can easily take care of yourselves? You are THAT tempted to stray? What are you? A bunch of helpless clueless babes in the woods? What's up with that attitude? :scratchhead: 

After over a decade of marriage these husbands don't feel you are capable of taking care of yourselves? Of being faithful? Of having the maturity and capability of going out on your own? :wtf:

And how does SHE know that when her husband goes out on one of HIS expeditions that instead of hunting deer he's looking to bag hot babes at a bar? Hmmm..??? 

...Isn't there some sort of modicum of trust that needs to be in every successful relationship? Why the assumption that a bunch of women are looking to "get it on" if they go out for dinner and some drinks and sleep in late? 

Why does everyone assume that you will be causing trouble or that trouble will find you? I'm just not getting this...

I wouldn't put with my husband giving me a hard time about this and I certainly wouldn't give him a hard time about going out with his buddies. If something is going to happen, then it's going to happen REGARDLESS. 

Plenty of people get into more trouble on Facebook or in chat rooms right in the "safety" of their living rooms then the do in a bar or restaurant. Talk about ridiculous misconceptions and stereotypes... :slap:

Maybe it's just that I'm not paranoid about a bunch of women heading out for a good time to celebrate a birthday but I don't see any cause for concern, except that you and your girlfriend have paranoid, sexist husbands with ancient ideas and values and THIS is the situation that needs to be addressed most of all.

One reasons these guys do this is because you LET them. Don't you think you should take a stand at some point and demand to be treated as mature adults, rather than as children and possessions?


----------



## Lon

Freak On a Leash said:


> I don't believe anyone has an issue with this. :scratchhead: It sounds like a lot of fun to me, not a bunch of "cougars" prowling around looking for a pick up.
> 
> Why does everyone assume that you will be looking to pick up men or that you will LET men pick you up? You aren't capable, mature, adult women who can easily take care of yourselves? You are THAT tempted to stray? What are you? A bunch of helpless clueless babes in the woods? What's up with that attitude? :scratchhead:


Freak, they may not be a bunch of cougars on the prowl, but it is the same as what cougars do, and most guys at the club are going to look at them the same way.

I think a GNO at a club once in a blue moon is most likely not going to result in one of the pack deciding to cheat on their spouse, however it puts them on the spectrum (even if it is the far right end of it) which is why I think some on here think of it as disrespectful to their marriage. It also sets a precedent that there is no harm to frequenting a club, since they've done it before and nobody cheated... once they start getting comfortable they accept the scene, and honestly an atmosphere of drinking, good looking people in sexy clothes doing alluring dances without their spouse is not a good scene for a married person.

One time, nothing likely to happen, some eye candy makes you feel good, (no different than the chemical formula that makes anything feel good, dopamine, endorphines etc)... next time, you see some familiar faces, you don't feel threatened, combined with a mental image of your dud spouse sitting on the couch at home, or thinking how they ignored you that one time, they are missing out on all the fun... getting a little tipsy... any resentment you have combined with the atmosphere, fuels your decision to become just a little more selfish because your mind justifies it... maybe next time you see someone that is attractive to you at the club, they are having fun, are good looking and are making eyes at you, "want to dance? No? you are no fun, how about just one dance, then I'll buy you and your friends a round of drinks?"...

You see where I am going with this, and disbelieve me, I know cause I used to write this argument off. It is easy to say I wouldn't cheat when you are not under the influence of that atmosphere... once things start chipping away as long as you are exposed to such an atmosphere it will eventually erode your certainty. Most people can handle a few chips out of their moral foundation and still remain faithful to their spouse, serial cheaters obviously have not a strong foundation to begin with, sometimes the chips are so big that even a loyal person may consider things they wouldn't otherwise.

For a married person, going to a night club and dancing without their spouse really is just taking a small little risk, just like entropy suggests, because the reward (ie fun with friends) seems to easily outweigh it (especially when you are so convinced that there is no risk). But it really takes very little for even a seemingly strong committed spouse to start losing control once things start eroding their constitution. Just because you are married or in a long term relationship doesn't mean the rules of attraction no longer apply, and that's what clubs are solely about, making yourself attractive, so when you go to the club as a married person you are specifically testing your ability to withstand attention from OM/OW, do it frequently enough and you WILL fail eventually. So how many times does it take, twice? five times? 25 times? I think if just the right factors are in place it is basically the same as random chance, why play the lottery on your marriage?


----------



## Entropy3000

Well said Lon. 

Folks keep focusing on trust and cheating and it really is about the disrespect of taking the risk itself. I crudely call it playing just the tip. But that is just it. This becomes comfortable. People can dismiss PUA but the concept of sliding boundaries applies to all of us. A Kino escalation is about sliding through bihndaries in a methodical way. It works. It is subtle. Some men do it naturally. Sliding friction is much less than a firm boundary. When I lift a weight the toughest thing is getting it moving. Once things start moving it becomes easy. Add alcohol for a lubricant. Some use that as an excuse.

We are on a forum that over and over again illustrates the poor boundaries that folks can have with friends and so on in the best of circumstances.

The point or the meat market club is to provide a seductive atmosphere. It is fun. It is exciting. But it is about breaking down the boundaries for the hookup or almost hookup. Many or even most just like to bathe themselves in the atmosphere and have no intention to "cheat". But what counts as cheating in this atmosphere will slide. Music, sexy people, dressing sexy, pushing boundaries, letting off steam, unwinding, bonding with friends, drinking, attention, the feeling of someone else moving against you, the scent of this new person, peer pressure, the fun of seduction. It is just adult fun.

Just a little further. I can stop when I want. This guy is a just a friend. It is not a problem that he is cuddling with her. She is not cheating. She exchanges contact information. All it takes is one of the members of the group to start being the social coodinator who arranges to be somewhere with "the guys". In fact they kid themselves into thinking that these guys make it safe for them. These guys can c0ckbl0ck. They become regular partners. They someone starts sharing contact information about others. There is an argument with her husband and she shares this information with his friend. He uses this.

Anyway, this is still just being out to play with strange men. I get it. Saying we are strong women. We can play with strange men and not spread our legs. That is not even the point. Some of us see it as unfaithful for the women to be playing with the strange men at all. I don't see this as insecurity on the husbands part. I think that is disengenuous. A weak man would fall for that as they are so insecure they are afraid of being accused of being jealous, insecure and controlling. Calling him insecure is saying that he lacks confidence because he is afraid to have his wife swimming in a pool of other men. Manipulation at its best.

Hey GNOs are essential. Not so sure about the GNOs out with the strange men. If the husband is ok with the meat market escapades for their wives that is fine. Maybe their wife just needs some space to find herself and these type of GNOs give them a break from the daily grind of being married to them. I get it. Some men like the hot wife fantasy and this is part of letting play out. Not judging. Not all men are wired to be excited by other men feeling up thier wife.

I do not however get those that think there is something wrong with their husband for not wanting to play along with this. Of course the additional dynamic is the peer pressure from sometimes toxic friends. A toxic friend can cause no end of trouble for others if it is allowed. How about showing how strong you are by saying no to these activities.

Are their women who can play this game and not be sucked in ... maybe. maybe a good number. Why risk it? Marriage has enough pressures why add this? Sure women need their friends and time with them out and about. Go for it. But ask yourself why it needs to be around hot guys who want to nail you. Yeah the music.

I trust my wife completely. I trust her not take these risks. he she out of the blue started to do this it would challenge that trust. If she did it against my feelings, all trust would be broken. All trust.


----------



## Entropy3000

Freak On a Leash said:


> I don't believe anyone has an issue with this. :scratchhead: It sounds like a lot of fun to me, not a bunch of "cougars" prowling around looking for a pick up.
> 
> Why does everyone assume that you will be looking to pick up men or that you will LET men pick you up? You aren't capable, mature, adult women who can easily take care of yourselves? You are THAT tempted to stray? What are you? A bunch of helpless clueless babes in the woods? What's up with that attitude? :scratchhead:
> 
> After over a decade of marriage these husbands don't feel you are capable of taking care of yourselves? Of being faithful? Of having the maturity and capability of going out on your own? :wtf:
> 
> And how does SHE know that when her husband goes out on one of HIS expeditions that instead of hunting deer he's looking to bag hot babes at a bar? Hmmm..???
> 
> ...Isn't there some sort of modicum of trust that needs to be in every successful relationship? Why the assumption that a bunch of women are looking to "get it on" if they go out for dinner and some drinks and sleep in late?
> 
> Why does everyone assume that you will be causing trouble or that trouble will find you? I'm just not getting this...
> 
> I wouldn't put with my husband giving me a hard time about this and I certainly wouldn't give him a hard time about going out with his buddies. If something is going to happen, then it's going to happen REGARDLESS.
> 
> Plenty of people get into more trouble on Facebook or in chat rooms right in the "safety" of their living rooms then the do in a bar or restaurant. Talk about ridiculous misconceptions and stereotypes... :slap:
> 
> Maybe it's just that I'm not paranoid about a bunch of women heading out for a good time to celebrate a birthday but I don't see any cause for concern, except that you and your girlfriend have paranoid, sexist husbands with ancient ideas and values and THIS is the situation that needs to be addressed most of all.
> 
> One reasons these guys do this is because you LET them. Don't you think you should take a stand at some point and demand to be treated as mature adults, rather than as children and possessions?


Let these ancient men stay home with the children while the women get to play! The men have done this for centuries. Well not these men ... but that does not matter. 

Anyway, I see the answer as compatibility. Just marry a man with very Beta traits who is willing to sit home while his wife has fun with her friends in the company of more Apha men. This works. They can join TAM while their wives are out all night and ask for advice on manning up.

She gets the best of both worlds. Even if things melt down and someone gets pregnant, there is always that Beta guy at home who will take care of things. But these are stong independent women. They use birth control and would never have unprotected sex. They can be trusted no matter how much alcohol. Extreme? Sure. But just telling a loving spouse that you will not put up with their feeleings is pretty extreme too. It is especially extreme when it is a change. Like 16 years into a marriage, the wife wants to open up the marriage just a little bit to include this type of activity.

You see when we choose a wife, often these things are taken in to consideration. If not we take the risk. I suggest that as a strategy that women wait to go too far with this until after ten years. Depending on the laws of your area. That way the husband has the pressures of the legal system as it pertains to community property AND there are some number of children. He will lose big when he objects and she tells him to go pound sand. Ooops that turned into hypergamy. Sorry. But that makes the marriage a power struggle ... oh wait that is not a good marriage.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> Well said Lon.
> 
> Folks keep focusing on trust and cheating and it really is about the disrespect of taking the risk itself. I crudely call it playing just the tip. But that is just it. This becomes comfortable. People can dismiss PUA but the concept of sliding boundaries applies to all of us. A Kino escalation is about sliding through bihndaries in a methodical way. It works. It is subtle. Some men do it naturally. Sliding friction is much less than a firm boundary. When I lift a weight the toughest thing is getting it moving. Once things start moving it becomes easy. Add alcohol for a lubricant. Some use that as an excuse.
> 
> We are on a forum that over and over again illustrates the poor boundaries that folks can have with friends and so on in the best of circumstances.
> 
> The point or the meat market club is to provide a seductive atmosphere. It is fun. It is exciting. But it is about breaking down the boundaries for the hookup or almost hookup. Many or even most just like to bathe themselves in the atmosphere and have no intention to "cheat". But what counts as cheating in this atmosphere will slide. Music, sexy people, dressing sexy, pushing boundaries, letting off steam, unwinding, bonding with friends, drinking, attention, the feeling of someone else moving against you, the scent of this new person, peer pressure, the fun of seduction. It is just adult fun.
> 
> Just a little further. I can stop when I want. This guy is a just a friend. It is not a problem that he is cuddling with her. She is not cheating. She exchanges contact information. All it takes is one of the members of the group to start being the social coodinator who arranges to be somewhere with "the guys". In fact they kid themselves into thinking that these guys make it safe for them. These guys can c0ckbl0ck. They become regular partners. They someone starts sharing contact information about others. There is an argument with her husband and she shares this information with his friend. He uses this.
> 
> Anyway, this is still just being out to play with strange men. I get it. Saying we are strong women. We can play with strange men and not spread our legs. That is not even the point. Some of us see it as unfaithful for the women to be playing with the strange men at all. I don't see this as insecurity on the husbands part. I think that is disengenuous. A weak man would fall for that as they are so insecure they are afraid of being accused of being jealous, insecure and controlling. Calling him insecure is saying that he lacks confidence because he is afraid to have his wife swimming in a pool of other men. Manipulation at its best.
> 
> Hey GNOs are essential. Not so sure about the GNOs out with the strange men. If the husband is ok with the meat market escapades for their wives that is fine. Maybe their wife just needs some space to find herself and these type of GNOs give them a break from the daily grind of being married to them. I get it. Some men like the hot wife fantasy and this is part of letting play out. Not judging. Not all men are wired to be excited by other men feeling up thier wife.
> 
> I do not however get those that think there is something wrong with their husband for not wanting to play along with this. Of course the additional dynamic is the peer pressure from sometimes toxic friends. A toxic friend can cause no end of trouble for others if it is allowed. How about showing how strong you are by saying no to these activities.
> 
> Are their women who can play this game and not be sucked in ... maybe. maybe a good number. Why risk it? Marriage has enough pressures why add this? Sure women need their friends and time with them out and about. Go for it. But ask yourself why it needs to be around hot guys who want to nail you. Yeah the music.
> 
> I trust my wife completely. I trust her not take these risks. he she out of the blue started to do this it would challenge that trust. If she did it against my feelings, all trust would be broken. All trust.


Let me make sure I understand you. A woman cannot go out with her friends because of a perceived thing that she is going to do. Should we forbid a married woman from going to the gym then too? Plenty of hot guys there. Or should we forbid married women from going to sporting events? Plenty of hot guys there. How come a married man can go out with his friends to Hooters or a sports bar being served by hot women and that's okay but a married woman cannot go out dancing with her friends? Oh yeah, the women at the bar aren't interested in them. Sure. Men continue to go there in the hopes that they are and continue to go. If it REALLY was about hanging out with their buddies....the would go to a basement and watch the game. 
I think men project too much. They know EXACTLY the reasons why they go to bars where half naked women serve them and just assume that a woman going out dancing is doing the same thing. No, no we aren't.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Let me make sure I understand you. A woman cannot go out with her friends because of a perceived thing that she is going to do. Should we forbid a married woman from going to the gym then too? Plenty of hot guys there. Or should we forbid married women from going to sporting events? Plenty of hot guys there. How come a married man can go with his friends to Hooters or a sports bar being served by hot women and that's okay but a married woman cannot go out dancing with her friends? Oh yeah, the women at the bar aren't interested in them. Sure. Men continue to go there in the hopes that they are. If it REALLY was about hanging out with their buddies....the would go to a basement and watch the game.
> I think men project too much. They know exactly the reasons why they go to bars where half naked women serve them and just assume that a woman going out dancing is doing the same thing. No, no we aren't.


Do you really believe going to a sports bar and being served by a waitress is the same thing? I understand the Hooters or strip club, and a wife should definitely call her husband on that if it is an issue to her. But likening a sports bar to a dance club? I really don't see it, or think it is a reasonable comparison.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Tall Average Guy said:


> Do you really believe going to a sports bar and being served by a waitress is the same thing? I understand the Hooters or strip club, and a wife should definitely call her husband on that if it is an issue to her. But likening a sports bar to a dance club? I really don't see it, or think it is a reasonable comparison.


Not sure where you live but here in Houston, a sports bar will not survive unless the women are young, gorgeous and "working their assets" shall we say and yes, I would consider it the same. I was (besides the servers) one of only a handful of women (there with hubby btw) at various bars. All the patrons were men and openly gawking/picking up/doing everything possible to get with these women. Men with rings on their fingers. Entropy has repeatedly said that sports bars aren't the same and I disagree. Bottom line, why do married men object to women going out dancing when they go to sports bars to check out/pick up young women? If watching the game is important, any television will do. I stand by my point that many men project their own behavior on to their wives.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Not sure where you live but here in Houston, a sports bar will not survive unless the women are young, gorgeous and "working their assets" shall we say and yes, I would consider it the same. I was (besides the servers) one of only a handful of women (there with hubby btw) at various bars. All the patrons were men and openly gawking/picking up/doing everything possible to get with these women. Men with rings on their fingers. Entropy has repeatedly said that sports bars aren't the same and I disagree. Bottom line, why do married men object to women going out dancing when they go to sports bars to check out/pick up young women? If watching the game is important, any television will do. I stand by my point that many men project their own behavior on to their wives.


If that is the way they are, then yes, that is an issue if the wife thinks its an issue. Here out East, the sports bars are not like that (or at least not they ones I attend). There are young women there, but no more than the young men. They serve food and drinks and nothing more. I have been there both with friends and with my wife and kids, and not seen any difference in the actions of the wait staff.

Even with that, there is a difference between that and a dance club, in that the wait staff of an establishment are not there with the aim of meeting woman. That is the goal of many men at a dance club. Add alcohol to that, and it is a problem. That same problem would exist if a husband went to a dance club or a known singles bar. That has nothing to do with projecting, and has everything to do with the atmosphere in those clubs.


----------



## CantBeJustMe

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Let me make sure I understand you. A woman cannot go out with her friends because of a perceived thing that she is going to do. Plenty of hot guys there.


I don't think that’s what most were trying to say. I know that’s not what I was trying to say. If husband (or wife) for that matter doesn’t trust their SO, then there are other issues going on.





> Should we forbid a married woman from going to the gym then too? Plenty of hot guys there. Or should we forbid married women from going to sporting events?



That’s pushing the extreme edge a bit, maybe just to garner a rise out of someone, or maybe you’ve dealt with a husband or a friend’s husband or SO who was this controlling. Again, not what I was trying to say.

Most men and women don’t go to the gym to ‘hook up’, sure there are some, but by definition being all hot, sweaty and stinking isn’t exactly what most people think of when they consider meeting people of the opposite sex. I can always tell the people looking to “people shop” where I work out (I go in the morning before work, my wife goes before she goes to work at 3pm) they usually have on cologne and perfume when “working out”. They are also the people who jump on a treadmill or bike and use it for few minutes, or (guys mainly) who do bicep curls in front of the mirror and little else. My son is 15, and is in exceptional shape (one of my motivating reasons for getting back in the gym since I was a very competitive athlete, as he is now) and I constantly have to harp on him to not worry about how much weight but correct form. When he talks about guys with huge arms I’ve always told him to look at their legs. Huge arms and chicken legs are amusing, at least for us. But I digress.




> How come a married man can go out with his friends to Hooters or a sports bar being served by hot women and that's okay but a married woman cannot go out dancing with her friends? Oh yeah, the women at the bar aren't interested in them. Sure. Men continue to go there in the hopes that they are and continue to go. If it REALLY was about hanging out with their buddies....the would go to a basement and watch the game.



I’m sure there are married guys who go to Hooters and other place to ogle the women. I would think most that fit this bill would go to a strip club, but hey I’m just a guy.

The big difference? When wives are out at a dance club, where there tends to be a big single male presence, the object for many of these people (single people that is, women and men) is to MEET someone. I don’t recall ever having been asked to dance by a Hooter’s waitress? Or having a Hooter’s waitress offer to BUY me a drink. Maybe it’s just me?

If my wife wants to go dancing, she tells me that, and we go. If I don’t feel like dancing every minute, or she simply wants to dance with her friends, she does. My wife has expressed how she feels better even if I’m just there, off the dance floor. Just knowing I’m there in case something happens. She also mentioned that it’s a lot easier to get rid of a creepy guy by pointing out me and saying “That’s my husband. Go away.” I may be “Beta” in some relationship issues, but at 6’3 245lbs I’m Alpha in appearance whether I care to be or not. In fact, when we were dating my wife’s friends used to tell guys, that kept bugging them, that I was their boyfriend. Worked for me, I got free drinks out of the deal much of the time.

Then there is the physical safety issue. Date rape drugs are out there. There are guys who have no qualms about trying to drug or get a woman drunk and get what he wants. Not to mention that most of these clubs aren’t the safest environment, especially towards the end of the night when most people have had one or five too many to drink.

Again, just my experience and my opinion. Take it or leave it.






> I think men project too much. They know EXACTLY the reasons why they go to bars where half naked women serve them and just assume that a woman going out dancing is doing the same thing. No, no we aren't.


Again, we’re not all the same. I don’t go to the local Hooters. Why? The food sucks and the service is worse. If I’m on the other side of town, I might go to that one, but it’s always crowded. My wife was a waitress, when we met, and after we moved in together. We got to know each other after I spent a lot of time coming there to see her. I watched how guys flirted and talked trash, that’s what a lot of us do. Most of them just want an attractive woman to be nice to them. Some get off on having a woman server them, and even more of them just want to go out have a beer, a decent meal, maybe catch a game, and if the waitress looks attractive, then hey, they get to look at some nice scenery. We are VISUAL creatures by design. Not something we caused, not something we can change.

My wife wouldn’t want me to go to a club that’s considered a single’s hangout, and I don’t blame her. I never cared for them much when I was single. It’s a respect issue in a relationship. Now if the husband has no problem with it, by all means.

I will say, having seen several of my wife’s friends who have gotten divorced or who aren’t married, that many times these women are the ones wanting to go to the club type atmosphere, women like wingmen just as much as men.


----------



## ScaredandUnsure

I wish the OP would come back and clear some things up. 

It sounds like anything these ladies do, their husbands have issues with. That they throw a fit every time, so they never get to go out. That wouldn't fly with me, especially since the guys go away for the weekend...a sports weekend away? Really? They can't hang in the basement? 

Seems a little odd that the guys can go away an entire weekend, but the wives can't go out for an evening. She even said the location can change if it's a problem, and they'd be willing to have the guys go dancing with them. But it still seems like it's an issue.


----------



## FrankKissel

It seems plenty of guys here have a mighty low opinion of women, and that's at the heart of the opposition to them going out dancing with friends. The argument appears to be that women are too weak-minded to resist the wily charms of a man on the prowl. They're too primordially driven to turn down a man who asks them to dance. They lack the willpower to withstand temptation.

It's not that we men want to keep them from going out and having fun, but - for their own sake - we must keep them from temptation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Tall Average Guy said:


> Even with that, there is a difference between that and a dance club, in that the wait staff of an establishment are not there with the aim of meeting woman.


No, the aim of those establishments are to please men. Why else would they wear what they wear, comfort? Alcohol is freely served at sports bars as well. So should a married man be barred from going to that?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, the aim of those establishments are to please men. Why else would they wear what they wear, comfort? Alcohol is freely served at sports bars as well. So should a married man be barred from going to that?


I am not sure how this comment addresses my point that the wait staff at a bar is not there to pick up men or woman. Nonetheless, if his wife did not want him to go there, then yes he should not go out of respect to his wife and her boundaries. They should discuss places for him to get together with his friends (and she with hers) that both can be comfortable with. To my mind, singles bars (which the dance clubs being discussed really are) are not appropriate.


----------



## FrankKissel

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am not sure how this comment addresses my point that the wait staff at a bar is not there to pick up men or woman. Nonetheless, if his wife did not want him to go there, then yes he should not go out of respect to his wife and her boundaries. They should discuss places for him to get together with his friends (and she with hers) that both can be comfortable with. To my mind, singles bars (which the dance clubs being discussed really are) are not appropriate.


Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but are you saying a man's wife should have veto powers over where he and his friends go to hang out?
I suppose I could understand a few extreme exceptions (brothels, for example), but otherwise ... Yikes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Let me make sure I understand you. A woman cannot go out with her friends because of a perceived thing that she is going to do. Should we forbid a married woman from going to the gym then too? Plenty of hot guys there. Or should we forbid married women from going to sporting events? Plenty of hot guys there. How come a married man can go out with his friends to Hooters or a sports bar being served by hot women and that's okay but a married woman cannot go out dancing with her friends? Oh yeah, the women at the bar aren't interested in them. Sure. Men continue to go there in the hopes that they are and continue to go. If it REALLY was about hanging out with their buddies....the would go to a basement and watch the game.
> I think men project too much. They know EXACTLY the reasons why they go to bars where half naked women serve them and just assume that a woman going out dancing is doing the same thing. No, no we aren't.


So again you totally missed the point of anythting I have said. No doubt my fault again.

The problem is the putting of oneself into those environments. You use the word forbid. Not I dear lady. You know me better than that. I expect resepct from my wife. I do not forbid her anything. I do however have my own boundaries as to what I will accept in my marriage. I will not accept disrespect. I don't have to. These places are for single people or for folks in open relationships. How open depends on the couple.

I would not want my wife to have a male personal trainer. I would not have a female personal trainer. I just throw that out there. As usual though you wish to change the venue. But if that gym is an overnight stay at a hotel, drinking alcohol, and involves my wife being groped by the guys at the gym then yeah I have a problem with that. I spend a lot of time at the gym. Guys do their best to hit on the women. Me I in the f'ing squat rack and pretty much the more plates I put on the farther folks back away which suits me fine. I go to the gym to lift. Many women go to the gym to be hit on and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. I could care less whether they are married or not. I do not interact with them. But is it not equivalent to a meat market GNO. If I was giving them nassages and grinding into them then that would be more equivalent, but lets lower the lights and get stinking drunk first and wear some easy access clothing.

The topic is about meat markets, staying out all night all night, drinking heavily and dancing up close and personal with strange men. You do not want to defend that because you know it is undefenseable so you try to make it about something else. To me if the husband is ok with it then not harm no fool, maybe just a tad naive.

Hooters? Really Hooters? I have not been to a Hooters in a while. Can I grind on drunk babes there? If so maybe you are right. Hooters? The people I know who like Hooters actually like the hot wings. So the wives can go out all night, get drunk, dance with strange men and the husbands alternative is to go to Hooters? Kids go to Hooters.

Are you equating something legal to something that has anything to do with marriage? Meaning as long as it is within the law it is something guys need to accept from their wives? Same for husbands. 

Did anything I write indicate I thought it was ok for husbands to go to these clubs, dance with women and nail them? Does anyone think this is ok?

Church was mentioned. I would have a problem with a church where my wife stayed overnight, had much to drink and was being groped by other men.

Meet the teacher night at school. I would be against my wife going to an all night teacher meeting where there was heavy drinking and men were feeling her up for entertainment.

Meat markets are designed for this activity. If your hubby is ok with any of this then great have a good time. But if he is not you are showing your priorities.


----------



## Acorn

There are way too many posts on TAM about women hooking up at GNO, women using GNO as a cover for their affairs, women feeling their husbands were uncaring for going along with GNO too easily, and women "making a mistake" at a GNO to oversimplify the issue and assign it to men somehow.

It is not a gender issue, it is one spouse putting themselves in a position that makes the other uncomfortable.

Take the blinders off people... Google is your friend.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

CantBeJustMe said:


> I don't think that’s what most were trying to say. I know that’s not what I was trying to say. If husband (or wife) for that matter doesn’t trust their SO, then there are other issues going on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’s pushing the extreme edge a bit, maybe just to garner a rise out of someone, or maybe you’ve dealt with a husband or a friend’s husband or SO who was this controlling. Again, not what I was trying to say.
> 
> Most men and women don’t go to the gym to ‘hook up’, sure there are some, but by definition being all hot, sweaty and stinking isn’t exactly what most people think of when they consider meeting people of the opposite sex. I can always tell the people looking to “people shop” where I work out (I go in the morning before work, my wife goes before she goes to work at 3pm) they usually have on cologne and perfume when “working out”. They are also the people who jump on a treadmill or bike and use it for few minutes, or (guys mainly) who do bicep curls in front of the mirror and little else. My son is 15, and is in exceptional shape (one of my motivating reasons for getting back in the gym since I was a very competitive athlete, as he is now) and I constantly have to harp on him to not worry about how much weight but correct form. When he talks about guys with huge arms I’ve always told him to look at their legs. Huge arms and chicken legs are amusing, at least for us. But I digress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’m sure there are married guys who go to Hooters and other place to ogle the women. I would think most that fit this bill would go to a strip club, but hey I’m just a guy.
> 
> The big difference? When wives are out at a dance club, where there tends to be a big single male presence, the object for many of these people (single people that is, women and men) is to MEET someone. I don’t recall ever having been asked to dance by a Hooter’s waitress? Or having a Hooter’s waitress offer to BUY me a drink. Maybe it’s just me?
> 
> If my wife wants to go dancing, she tells me that, and we go. If I don’t feel like dancing every minute, or she simply wants to dance with her friends, she does. My wife has expressed how she feels better even if I’m just there, off the dance floor. Just knowing I’m there in case something happens. She also mentioned that it’s a lot easier to get rid of a creepy guy by pointing out me and saying “That’s my husband. Go away.” I may be “Beta” in some relationship issues, but at 6’3 245lbs I’m Alpha in appearance whether I care to be or not. In fact, when we were dating my wife’s friends used to tell guys, that kept bugging them, that I was their boyfriend. Worked for me, I got free drinks out of the deal much of the time.
> 
> Then there is the physical safety issue. Date rape drugs are out there. There are guys who have no qualms about trying to drug or get a woman drunk and get what he wants. Not to mention that most of these clubs aren’t the safest environment, especially towards the end of the night when most people have had one or five too many to drink.
> 
> Again, just my experience and my opinion. Take it or leave it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, we’re not all the same. I don’t go to the local Hooters. Why? The food sucks and the service is worse. If I’m on the other side of town, I might go to that one, but it’s always crowded. My wife was a waitress, when we met, and after we moved in together. We got to know each other after I spent a lot of time coming there to see her. I watched how guys flirted and talked trash, that’s what a lot of us do. Most of them just want an attractive woman to be nice to them. Some get off on having a woman server them, and even more of them just want to go out have a beer, a decent meal, maybe catch a game, and if the waitress looks attractive, then hey, they get to look at some nice scenery. We are VISUAL creatures by design. Not something we caused, not something we can change.
> 
> My wife wouldn’t want me to go to a club that’s considered a single’s hangout, and I don’t blame her. I never cared for them much when I was single. It’s a respect issue in a relationship. Now if the husband has no problem with it, by all means.
> 
> I will say, having seen several of my wife’s friends who have gotten divorced or who aren’t married, that many times these women are the ones wanting to go to the club type atmosphere, women like wingmen just as much as men.


I appreciate your insight. 
No, Hooters girls don't get up and dance but what on Earth is the purpose for a married man going there? Food is crap, worst wings on the planet and served by women who on any given day (minus the nylons) could easily show pubic hair. So why would a married man go to such a place unless it was to oogle and check out women. Same as a sports bar here in Houston. Somehow that is okay but a married woman going out with her friends to dance is not? I honestly just don't get nor do I care to. It is a complete double standard and those who say women shouldn't go out with their friends to dance better be ready to stay at home as well.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

FrankKissel said:


> Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but are you saying a man's wife should have veto powers over where he and his friends go to hang out?
> I suppose I could understand a few extreme exceptions (brothels, for example), but otherwise ... Yikes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not at all. They are both adults and neither can stop the other one from going some where, even to a brothel. But in a good marriage, a husband and wife should communicate about issues and boundaries they have. They should also respect the reasonable boundaries of their partner.

If my wife told me she was uncomfortable with me going somewhere (let's say Hooters), I would talk to her about why and what I could do to make her more comfortable. I do this because I respect my wife and want her to feel comfortable. That is worth more to me than going to a place with crappy food and bleached blonds.

My wife does not have a veto over what I do. To use that language is more than a bit inflamatory and leading, in my opinion. But when she speaks (whether out loud or through body language about something, I listen to what she is saying.


----------



## Lon

TRBE, if a W is going to the gym or sporting event because there are hot guys there (or even just to get attention from not-so-ot guys) it is inappropriate. Just as inappropriate as a married man going to hooters to gawk at the waitresses is inappropriate. As to the gym, where there is proper equipment and professional trainers, sporting events, where people go to enjoy being a spectator, or a sports bar where guys go to drink and eat pub food while spectating sports, what exactly is a married woman's reason for going to a night club? What does she get there that is exclusive to that kind of place, besides looking sexy for the guys? And to be clear, 99.9% of straight men are not there to dance (though they will spend time on the dance floor because thats what it takes for them to get what they ARE there for).

Entropy nailed it earlier when he wrote that people go to bars to bathe in that atmosphere.


----------



## FrankKissel

Acorn said:


> There are way too many posts on TAM about women hooking up at GNO, women using GNO as a cover for their affairs, women feeling their husbands were uncaring for going along with GNO too easily, and women "making a mistake" at a GNO to oversimplify the issue and assign it to men somehow.
> 
> It is not a gender issue, it is one spouse putting themselves in a position that makes the other uncomfortable.
> 
> Take the blinders off people... Google is your friend.


If you want to bar GNOs on the basis of their being "way too many posts" on TAM about them leading to trouble, might I also suggest we ban:
- Facebook
- having an ex
- women in the workplace
- having neighbors
- online gaming
- chat rooms
- message boards (bad news for TAM)
- going back to school
- socializing with other adults

A GNO is just one of many situations where temptation could exist. And one that is far less treacherous than several of the 
above. Can't get rid of them all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

FrankKissel said:


> It seems plenty of guys here have a mighty low opinion of women, and that's at the heart of the opposition to them going out dancing with friends. The argument appears to be that women are too weak-minded to resist the wily charms of a man on the prowl. They're too primordially driven to turn down a man who asks them to dance. They lack the willpower to withstand temptation.
> 
> It's not that we men want to keep them from going out and having fun, but - for their own sake - we must keep them from temptation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I lack the ability to say I'm married, no thanks, [email protected] off. I also smell cologne and toss my underwear aside to get ravished in the men's stall......don't you know. I am weak and powerless and any Barracuda man will take away my core beliefs, my values and my soul for a night of screwing over a toilet. Yup, you caught me. 
I have to wonder if (some) married men here are projecting. Would they do that if a woman was coming on to them? My guess is yes and thus they assume any woman who goes out dancing with friends would do the same. Hmmmm.


----------



## Entropy3000

FrankKissel said:


> Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but are you saying a man's wife should have veto powers over where he and his friends go to hang out?
> I suppose I could understand a few extreme exceptions (brothels, for example), but otherwise ... Yikes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If my wife had a problem with where I was hanging out we would discuss it and work it out. It works both ways. It works for us. I have an open mind. My wife is more important to me than the guys. Many women have a problem with their husbands going to strip clubs while others like to go along. It is a couples thing. They work it out. 

I suppose in theory this could be an issue. It just never has.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I appreciate your insight.
> No, Hooters girls don't get up and dance but what on Earth is the purpose for a married man going there? Food is crap, worst wings on the planet and served by women who on any given day (minus the nylons) could easily show pubic hair. So why would a married man go to such a place unless it was to oogle and check out women. Same as a sports bar here in Houston. Somehow that is okay but a married woman going out with her friends to dance is not? I honestly just don't get nor do I care to. It is a complete double standard and those who say women shouldn't go out with their friends to dance better be ready to stay at home as well.


For it to be a double standard, it has to be similar events that are being treated differently. But you are comparing different things. The wives are not asking to go to the wine bar with the two hot studly bar tenders to serve them. They want to go to a dance club where there are men who want to dance with them while buying them alcohol and hoping to pick them up. Think of it as passive versus active. 

If people were arguing that women should not attend the wine bar I described but advocating that men should be able to attend the sports bars you describe, then I agree that would be a double standard. I have not seen that occur.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yes, I lack the ability to say I'm married, no thanks, [email protected] off. I also smell cologne and toss my underwear aside to get ravished in the men's stall......don't you know. I am weak and powerless and any Barracuda man will take away my core beliefs, my values and my soul for a night of screwing over a toilet. Yup, you caught me.
> I have to wonder if (some) married men here are projecting. Would they do that if a woman was coming on to them? My guess is yes and thus they assume any woman who goes out dancing with friends would do the same. Hmmmm.


Bright Eyes, you said you don't dance with the men. Has that changed?


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Not sure where you live but here in Houston, a sports bar will not survive unless the women are young, gorgeous and "working their assets" shall we say and yes, I would consider it the same. I was (besides the servers) one of only a handful of women (there with hubby btw) at various bars. All the patrons were men and openly gawking/picking up/doing everything possible to get with these women. Men with rings on their fingers. Entropy has repeatedly said that sports bars aren't the same and I disagree. Bottom line, why do married men object to women going out dancing when they go to sports bars to check out/pick up young women? If watching the game is important, any television will do. I stand by my point that many men project their own behavior on to their wives.


I am not grinding on the women at the sports bar. I agree that bars in general have their own risks. It is not equivalent to actually dancing hot and close with another person. Making out may happen at the sports bar. I have never noticed. Less so than at the club. 

My wife usually does touch me at the sports bar. I have been know to kiss her a time or two as well. But we are out together as a couple.

I often go to sports bars when I am on a trip. We hang out after work and drink beer.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> So again you totally missed the point of anythting I have said. No doubt my fault again.
> 
> The problem is the putting of oneself into those environments. You use the word forbid. Not I dear lady. You know me better than that. I expect resepct from my wife. I do not forbid her anything. I do however have my own boundaries as to what I will accept in my marriage. I will not accept disrespect. I don't have to. These places are for single people or for folks in open relationships. How open depends on the couple.
> 
> I would not want my wife to have a male personal trainer. I would not have a female personal trainer. I just throw that out there. As usual though you wish to change the venue. But if that gym is an overnight stay at a hotel, drinking alcohol, and involves my wife being groped by the guys at the gym then yeah I have a problem with that. I spend a lot of time at the gym. Guys do their best to hit on the women. Me I in the f'ing squat rack and pretty much the more plates I put on the farther folks back away which suits me fine. I go to the gym to lift. Many women go to the gym to be hit on and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. I could care less whether they are married or not. I do not interact with them. But is it not equivalent to a meat market GNO. If I was giving them nassages and grinding into them then that would be more equivalent, but lets lower the lights and get stinking drunk first and wear some easy access clothing.
> 
> The topic is about meat markets, staying out all night all night, drinking heavily and dancing up close and personal with strange men. You do not want to defend that because you know it is undefenseable so you try to make it about something else. To me if the husband is ok with it then not harm no fool, maybe just a tad naive.
> 
> Hooters? Really Hooters? I have not been to a Hooters in a while. Can I grind on drunk babes there? If so maybe you are right. Hooters? The people I know who like Hooters actually like the hot wings. So the wives can go out all night, get drunk, dance with strange men and the husbands alternative is to go to Hooters? Kids go to Hooters.
> 
> Are you equating something legal to something that has anything to do with marriage? Meaning as long as it is within the law it is something guys need to accept from their wives? Same for husbands.
> 
> Did anything I write indicate I thought it was ok for husbands to go to these clubs, dance with women and nail them? Does anyone think this is ok?
> 
> Church was mentioned. I would have a problem with a church where my wife stayed overnight, had much to drink and was being groped by other men.
> 
> Meet the teacher night at school. I would be against my wife going to an all night teacher meeting where there was heavy drinking and men were feeling her up for entertainment.
> 
> Meat markets are designed for this activity. If your hubby is ok with any of this then great have a good time. But if he is not you are showing your priorities.


You make the UNBELIEVABLE assumption that us women who go out once in a blue moon are grinding on some dude and that is our sole purpose for being there. Let me clue you in on what GNO is about....at least in my camp. GETTING AWAY FROM MEN. We want to go out, have fun and dance. It isn't about men, honey. Far from it.


----------



## Entropy3000

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I wish the OP would come back and clear some things up.
> 
> It sounds like anything these ladies do, their husbands have issues with. That they throw a fit every time, so they never get to go out. That wouldn't fly with me, especially since the guys go away for the weekend...a sports weekend away? Really? They can't hang in the basement?
> 
> Seems a little odd that the guys can go away an entire weekend, but the wives can't go out for an evening. She even said the location can change if it's a problem, and they'd be willing to have the guys go dancing with them. But it still seems like it's an issue.


They were asked to elaborate but did not. It actually would have been a more interesting discussion if we had a chance to look at what those wankers were up to.


----------



## Entropy3000

FrankKissel said:


> It seems plenty of guys here have a mighty low opinion of women, and that's at the heart of the opposition to them going out dancing with friends. The argument appears to be that women are too weak-minded to resist the wily charms of a man on the prowl. They're too primordially driven to turn down a man who asks them to dance. They lack the willpower to withstand temptation.
> 
> It's not that we men want to keep them from going out and having fun, but - for their own sake - we must keep them from temptation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I confess I have a low opinion of women that do these things against their hubbys wishes.

We are really talking about what the women admit to actually doing and less about a weakness.


----------



## FrankKissel

Tall Average Guy said:


> For it to be a double standard, it has to be similar events that are being treated differently. But you are comparing different things. The wives are not asking to go to the wine bar with the two hot studly bar tenders to serve them. They want to go to a dance club where there are men who want to dance with them while buying them alcohol and hoping to pick them up. Think of it as passive versus active.


I agree with yopu here. If a group of women go to a dance club - particularly an attractive group - almost certainly some guys will want to dance with them. Some may even try to pick them up.
I guess my next question is ... so what? Do we fear our wives cannot resist these handsome strangers? Do we believe our wives can't say 'thanks, but no thanks'? Are our wives really so easy?

Look, I can understand a guy putting his foot down when his wife is out clubbing regularly. That displays a less-than-wifely mindset.
But as a once-a-year thing? I think a woman who doesn't want to cheat can somehow manage not to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, the aim of those establishments are to please men. Why else would they wear what they wear, comfort? Alcohol is freely served at sports bars as well. So should a married man be barred from going to that?


Hooters babes are too skanky for me. You are I guess trying to use something pretty mainstream.

What is closer to equivalent is guys getting lap dances at a place where extras happen. That is closer to the same thing. That said I still place a greater danger on the club because the club is with guys who want sex where as the strippers / prostitutes want money. The guys at the club will be interested in establishing a connection where there may be an EA / PA. Strippers .... not so much.

But i will trhow you a bone. I would not want my wife to be a Hooters waitress. Less about the patrons and more about how she may be treated by "management".


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Lon said:


> TRBE, if a W is going to the gym or sporting event because there are hot guys there (or even just to get attention from not-so-ot guys) it is inappropriate. Just as inappropriate as a married man going to hooters to gawk at the waitresses is inappropriate. As to the gym, where there is proper equipment and professional trainers, sporting events, where people go to enjoy being a spectator, or a sports bar where guys go to drink and eat pub food while spectating sports, what exactly is a married woman's reason for going to a night club? What does she get there that is exclusive to that kind of place, besides looking sexy for the guys? And to be clear, 99.9% of straight men are not there to dance (though they will spend time on the dance floor because thats what it takes for them to get what they ARE there for).
> 
> Entropy nailed it earlier when he wrote that people go to bars to bathe in that atmosphere.


Guys go to a sports bar to drink and eat? Please, just spare me. If that were true, a burly ugly man would be serving food and fist pumping the air when "the team" scored. Instead you get "Crystal" who is 20 and shoves her tits in your face when giving you wings and doesn't know a darn thing about "the team". 
I don't give a crap what men do at a club. I don't care why they are there either. I care why I am there. To have fun with my married friends and dance, period. Again, why the projection??


----------



## Hope1964

Hooters, strip clubs, meat market clubs, sports bars - whatever, the venue isn't the point.

The point is: IF your spouse has an issue with you going there, having the attitude that "I am just going to do whatever I want and to hell with him/her" is disrespectful and detrimental to your relationship. So is the attitude that you are FORBIDDING your spouse from going to said venue. The whole point is that RESPECTFUL spouses discuss these things and come to an agreement on what is comfortable FOR THEM. 

I would never forbid my hubby from going to a strip club. But he knows what I think about them and, if he went, would be doing so knowing full well there's going to be an issue involved. So he doesn't go. Thankfully he's not the type to even WANT to go, which is an important value FOR ME in OUR relationship. Obviously it isn't in others relationships. And that's fine.

I do not understand why any woman would go on a GNO knowing full well her husband doesn't approve. For WHATEVER reason. But that's just me.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> Bright Eyes, you said you don't dance with the men. Has that changed?


HUH? What on Earth would make you think I am dancing with men? :scratchhead: Baffled.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

michzz said:


> I get that, but I don't get the meat rack club angle that as mentioned. If women want to get away from men, how does going to a pick up joint accomplish that?
> 
> BTW, my comment is not a defense of a supposed sport weekend away that really is something else.


If there was a place that women could go to dance without men, I'd be there and NOT a lesbian bar. Hmmmm, perhaps a business venture I should explore.


----------



## Entropy3000

FrankKissel said:


> If you want to bar GNOs on the basis of their being "way too many posts" on TAM about them leading to trouble, might I also suggest we ban:
> - Facebook
> - having an ex
> - women in the workplace
> - having neighbors
> - online gaming
> - chat rooms
> - message boards (bad news for TAM)
> - going back to school
> - socializing with other adults
> 
> A GNO is just one of many situations where temptation could exist. And one that is far less treacherous than several of the
> above. Can't get rid of them all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally agree with this. I donlt think it is about getting rid of any of these things. They are not inherently ... EVIL. They have their good use and their not so good use. 

One would hope that the couples boundaries cover much of these. That said I do think technology has left most of us playing catch up in our relationships.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yes, I lack the ability to say I'm married, no thanks, [email protected] off. I also smell cologne and toss my underwear aside to get ravished in the men's stall......don't you know. I am weak and powerless and any Barracuda man will take away my core beliefs, my values and my soul for a night of screwing over a toilet. Yup, you caught me.
> I have to wonder if (some) married men here are projecting. Would they do that if a woman was coming on to them? My guess is yes and thus they assume any woman who goes out dancing with friends would do the same. Hmmmm.


I would be thinking below the waste for sure if I had been drinking a lot and dancing with a very attractive woman who was hell bent on geting me in the sack. I know I cannot play that game. I would not put myself in that situation and am not all gungho with my wife doing that either. Her wanting to do that would be the real issue.

So why am I there again? Why am I dancing with these women? Oh I would just dance with other guys ... right?


----------



## Acorn

FrankKissel said:


> If you want to bar GNOs on the basis of their being "way too many posts" on TAM about them leading to trouble, might I also suggest we ban:
> - Facebook
> - having an ex
> - women in the workplace
> - having neighbors
> - online gaming
> - chat rooms
> - message boards (bad news for TAM)
> - going back to school
> - socializing with other adults
> 
> A GNO is just one of many situations where temptation could exist. And one that is far less treacherous than several of the
> above. Can't get rid of them all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I absolutely agree with this.

I never suggested banning GNO, I think you may be confusing me with someone else. I do firmly believe that concerns about GNO should be taken with equal weight as any other issue a spouse might have in a marriage.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You make the UNBELIEVABLE assumption that us women who go out once in a blue moon are grinding on some dude and that is our sole purpose for being there. Let me clue you in on what GNO is about....at least in my camp. GETTING AWAY FROM MEN. We want to go out, have fun and dance. It isn't about men, honey. Far from it.


I am going by the OP.

I think GNOs are fine.

The OP said they we going to be out all night, sleep in and were going dancing.

I am not challenging YOUR GNO at all. I am not challanging this GNO as long as it it cool with the couple.


----------



## FrankKissel

Entropy3000 said:


> I would be thinking below the waste for sure if I had been drinking a lot and dancing with a very attractive woman who was hell bent on geting me in the sack. I know I cannot play that game. I would not put myself in that situation and am not all gungho with my wife doing that either. Her wanting to do that would be the real issue.
> 
> So why am I there again? Why am I dancing with these women? Oh I would just dance with other guys ... right?


I occasionally went to dance clubs in my younger days and often saw women dancing together, frequently in groups of three or four.
I've never, ever seen a group of guys dancing together.
Apples and oranges, my friend.
You continue to make the assumption that a woman goes out dancing with her friends for the sole purpose of being hit/grinded upon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Halien

Hope1964 said:


> Hooters, strip clubs, meat market clubs, sports bars - whatever, the venue isn't the point.
> 
> The point is: IF your spouse has an issue with you going there, having the attitude that "I am just going to do whatever I want and to hell with him/her" is disrespectful and detrimental to your relationship. So is the attitude that you are FORBIDDING your spouse from going to said venue. The whole point is that RESPECTFUL spouses discuss these things and come to an agreement on what is comfortable FOR THEM.
> 
> I would never forbid my hubby from going to a strip club. But he knows what I think about them and, if he went, would be doing so knowing full well there's going to be an issue involved. So he doesn't go. Thankfully he's not the type to even WANT to go, which is an important value FOR ME in OUR relationship. Obviously it isn't in others relationships. And that's fine.
> 
> I do not understand why any woman would go on a GNO knowing full well her husband doesn't approve. For WHATEVER reason. But that's just me.


Exactly! And if a woman finds herself arguing vehemently for the right to go to a night club on the girl's night out, and her husband is opposed, exactly what did the two of them talk about instead while they were deciding to spend the rest of their life together? Maybe instead of talking about what they had in common, and their personal boundaries, they had a nearly endless debate about 8 track tapes as opposed to cassettes. VHS versus beta? Cold fusion? Seriously, there had to be something more pressing to discuss than what they had in common, because the marriage vows still imply a heck of a long time. I moved to a new state and had to spend a lot of time reviewing the implications of a driver's license, and that was only four years. None of these boundary issues came up in marriage discussions?

In my case, my wife is enough of a feminist to be opposed to businesses that objectify women, yet we married long before we even heard of Hooters. I can make simple intellectual connections though, even though I'm a knuckle dragger, and I avoid them out of respect for her. 

I hold utmost respect for women who thrive on areas of nightlife and even hobbies that go against my grain. Something tells me that if I seriously dated a woman like this, our discussions about marriage would've naturally excluded each other. We would've probably just listened to my collection of 8 track tapes instead, and parted our ways. I can live with that, and even sleep well. Just don't see the point in coming to a thread like this, where we didn't even talk about the boundaries that the OP established within her marriage, and argue about how wrong each incompatable marriage type is. Guys, just don't marry each other and we can save some precious internet electrons.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If there was a place that women could go to dance without men, I'd be there and NOT a lesbian bar. Hmmmm, perhaps a business venture I should explore.


Why not a "Lesbian" bar? You could stil say "F*&k off, I'm married". I loved GNOs when I was 20. Lot of ladies letting their hair down and forgetting they can't drink like they used to.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Guys go to a sports bar to drink and eat? Please, just spare me. If that were true, a burly ugly man would be serving food and fist pumping the air when "the team" scored. Instead you get "Crystal" who is 20 and shoves her tits in your face when giving you wings and doesn't know a darn thing about "the team".
> I don't give a crap what men do at a club. I don't care why they are there either. I care why I am there. To have fun with my married friends and dance, period. Again, why the projection??


Crystal --- Love it.

Now Jade ... that is trouble.

I would have a hard time grabbing the wings with Crytals breasts in my face ... yes. I know, I am a bad person for this.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Tall Average Guy said:


> For it to be a double standard, it has to be similar events that are being treated differently. But you are comparing different things. The wives are not asking to go to the wine bar with the two hot studly bar tenders to serve them. They want to go to a dance club where there are men who want to dance with them while buying them alcohol and hoping to pick them up. Think of it as passive versus active.
> 
> If people were arguing that women should not attend the wine bar I described but advocating that men should be able to attend the sports bars you describe, then I agree that would be a double standard. I have not seen that occur.


There have been numerous posts here about this issue. It crops up all the time. Wine bars are still viewed as somehow "bad" for married women because afterall **gasp** alcohol is served there and they are alone. Hooters, sports bars, strip clubs = A-Okay, the excuse being "the women aren't there to pick up the married men". No. But the men SURE are there to pick up the women but somehow that's fine. 
So let me ask you, if there are women at a sports bar who flirts with you....should you be barred from ever going? Are you not able to say no, no thanks, married, (points) to ring? Why on Earth do you suppose us unable to do the same? My guess? Women have an easier time turning down sex. Men? Not so much and they put themselves in that situation and make vast assumptions that us women will behave the same. Lordy and


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

FrankKissel said:


> You continue to make the assumption that a woman goes out dancing with her friends for the sole purpose of being hit/grinded upon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well that's my ONLY purpose....to snare a man while my "beta" husband is at home. In order to garner the "alpha" male, I use bacon. I put bacon in my bra, in my underwear and a little grease behind my ears. Works all the time!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Hope1964 said:


> Hooters, strip clubs, meat market clubs, sports bars - whatever, the venue isn't the point.
> 
> The point is: IF your spouse has an issue with you going there, having the attitude that "I am just going to do whatever I want and to hell with him/her" is disrespectful and detrimental to your relationship. So is the attitude that you are FORBIDDING your spouse from going to said venue. The whole point is that RESPECTFUL spouses discuss these things and come to an agreement on what is comfortable FOR THEM.
> 
> I would never forbid my hubby from going to a strip club. But he knows what I think about them and, if he went, would be doing so knowing full well there's going to be an issue involved. So he doesn't go. Thankfully he's not the type to even WANT to go, which is an important value FOR ME in OUR relationship. Obviously it isn't in others relationships. And that's fine.
> 
> I do not understand why any woman would go on a GNO knowing full well her husband doesn't approve. For WHATEVER reason. But that's just me.


Don't get me wrong, if my husband had an issue with it...and we are talking MAYBE twice a year, I would not go. I would also have the same free reign on his life though. My point to all this was married men who have an issue with their wives going out, yet do the exact same thing but in a different venue called "guys time" should not expect that their wives are sitting at home, nor is it remotely fair.


----------



## Deejo

Make of it what you will ...

The Science of Sex Appeal (Part 8) - YouTube

"We found something quite shocking in our research ..." at about 2:03

Yup ... just out dancing ...


----------



## Entropy3000

Hope1964 said:


> Hooters, strip clubs, meat market clubs, sports bars - whatever, the venue isn't the point.
> 
> The point is: IF your spouse has an issue with you going there, having the attitude that "I am just going to do whatever I want and to hell with him/her" is disrespectful and detrimental to your relationship. So is the attitude that you are FORBIDDING your spouse from going to said venue. The whole point is that RESPECTFUL spouses discuss these things and come to an agreement on what is comfortable FOR THEM.
> 
> I would never forbid my hubby from going to a strip club. But he knows what I think about them and, if he went, would be doing so knowing full well there's going to be an issue involved. So he doesn't go. Thankfully he's not the type to even WANT to go, which is an important value FOR ME in OUR relationship. Obviously it isn't in others relationships. And that's fine.
> 
> I do not understand why any woman would go on a GNO knowing full well her husband doesn't approve. For WHATEVER reason. But that's just me.


Wondermous. A candle in the darkness. This. This is it. Thank you.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> HUH? What on Earth would make you think I am dancing with men? :scratchhead: Baffled.


Only that you seem to be defending that. I don't think you are.

Men are hairy filthy beasts. -- Some Like It Hot


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Make of it what you will ...
> 
> The Science of Sex Appeal (Part 8) - YouTube
> 
> "We found something quite shocking in our research ..." at about 2:03
> 
> Yup ... just out dancing ...


In other news: Man goes out with blue balls and is incapable of being faithful. Got it.


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> In other news: Man goes out with blue balls and is incapable of being faithful. Got it.


Most certainly not if the chick has bacon in her bra ...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> Only that you seem to be defending that. I don't think you are.
> 
> Men are hairy filthy beasts. -- Some Like It Hot


I am not defending anything, simply saying your stance that all married women who go out to dance are looking to cheat/hook up/get felt up is crap. 
You know you and I will never see eye to eye on this so let's just agree that bacon is awesome, okay?


----------



## michzz

Deejo said:


> Make of it what you will ...
> 
> The Science of Sex Appeal (Part 8) - YouTube
> 
> "We found something quite shocking in our research ..." at about 2:03
> 
> Yup ... just out dancing ...


Very apt video and spot on with what husbands worry about intuitively.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If there was a place that women could go to dance without men, I'd be there and NOT a lesbian bar. Hmmmm, perhaps a business venture I should explore.


Call it "Bright Eyes"


----------



## Deejo

michzz said:


> Very apt video and spot on with what husbands worry about intuitively.


It's a great clip ... even beyond the scope of a GNO ... or bacon.


----------



## Entropy3000

FrankKissel said:


> I occasionally went to dance clubs in my younger days and often saw women dancing together, frequently in groups of three or four.
> I've never, ever seen a group of guys dancing together.
> Apples and oranges, my friend.
> You continue to make the assumption that a woman goes out dancing with her friends for the sole purpose of being hit/grinded upon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am making the assumption that the OP meant that. It may have just been a grenade launched for effect.

Very much joking about the men dancing. Though that is done in some cultures.

In principle the dancing close and persistent flirting with the men would be my main concern. Very easy for innocent things to turn into less innocent things. Also while we admittedly lump things into meat market and have some idea of what that might be, it does matter about the venus itself.

So lets shift gears here a bit. Let's say for argument sake the husband is ok with the GNO once in a blue moon if the ladies wnet to a "club" and just stayed ladies only and perhaps danced as a group. I get that. It is a much grayer situation so it does make boundary setting trickier but I'll go there.

Is there any advice besides "trust her" that the ladies who do what TRBE does for her GNOs that they can help husbands with this gray area. 

Maybe elaborate what some boundaries might be in a healthy marriage.
I bet there are many.

From a guys perspective I would encourage the husband to actually go to that club and check it out. Preferrably with his wife. I suppose this could be a doubel edged sword. he may feel better or he may not.

I think keeping wedding rings on is a good idea though many see this as a target. I think a woman can dress sexy without being slvtty looking. Should a husband care? In general I would think no worries, but we have to admit some women take this a bit far and it draws attention that basically challenges the men to go past boundaries. BTW folks just saying you are married will not deter very many folks. 

Or am I now trying to just kill all the fun? If a woman changes her clothes in the car and before she gets home a red flag?

I am really just asking what are the boundaries?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Most certainly not if the chick has bacon in her bra ...


If a woman has a drink in her hand, she is powerless to the men who come her way. I often find that bacon does the trick, as in "fetch". 

To say a woman is somehow powerless, unable to live up to her standards and yielding her vows for some sad sack who buys her alcohol is ridiculous. Yes, I am sure it exists but it is no more ridiculous than my example of a sports bar and all guys who go there are looking to hook up. My point is, many are and many aren't. Period.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> It's a great clip ... even beyond the scope of a GNO ... or bacon.


Men get bacon. Men don't get GNO, yet seem to grasp Hooters and Tilted Kilt. So yeah, there's that.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> There have been numerous posts here about this issue. It crops up all the time. Wine bars are still viewed as somehow "bad" for married women because afterall **gasp** alcohol is served there and they are alone. Hooters, sports bars, strip clubs = A-Okay, the excuse being "the women aren't there to pick up the married men". No. But the men SURE are there to pick up the women but somehow that's fine.
> So let me ask you, if there are women at a sports bar who flirts with you....should you be barred from ever going? Are you not able to say no, no thanks, married, (points) to ring? Why on Earth do you suppose us unable to do the same? My guess? Women have an easier time turning down sex. Men? Not so much and they put themselves in that situation and make vast assumptions that us women will behave the same. Lordy and


Ok so we talked about some extremes. Now into those real life gray areas.

Yup I am cool with wine bars. Need some good boundaries here though. 

If I were single and wanted to pickup women, a wine bar would be where I would go. Not to a sports bar. So good point. There is less expectaion of touching at a wine bar than a club, but it depends does it not. Snuggling up in a booth together can be very cozy tasting those wines.

Women can have sex any time they want. Most men cannot BTW. I think that plays in here somehow.


----------



## Lon

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Guys go to a sports bar to drink and eat? Please, just spare me. If that were true, a burly ugly man would be serving food and fist pumping the air when "the team" scored. Instead you get "Crystal" who is 20 and shoves her tits in your face when giving you wings and doesn't know a darn thing about "the team".
> I don't give a crap what men do at a club. I don't care why they are there either. I care why I am there. To have fun with my married friends and dance, period. Again, why the projection??


Well, I know I do. In my city there is a couple known spots where the waitresses dress particularly ****ty, I never went to any of those pubs until recently, after my separation, though it was by chance not really cause I wanted to see some cleavage. The food at one particular sports bar is actually pretty good and cheap for the quanitity plus there are all sorts of games on the TVs. The waitresses there don't look particularly happy, atleast not for me and my ugly guy friends, it is only when they bring the bill that they push up their boobs and turn on the smiles. My usual sports bar hangouts the waitresses are friendly the whole time, not skankified and not really that flirty and yes they sometimes have burly male servers too that fist pump the air when the 'Riders score a TD.

I understand and believe you when you say many women aren't going to bars to grind on guys... most of the time when the women go they dance in a circle by themselves, so they can say it is just innocent. It is an invitation for guys to try to get and stay in that circle though. Most guys are rejected (ie us girls are not weak we can tell them to fvck off) only the most charming ones get into the circle (they are harmless and we can tell them to fvck off at any time), and of course they will scope out all the girls but usually have a target in mind. If you think it is all innocent it probably means you are not the target. However you will feel compelled to play along especially if there is a single girl in the group.

I have female friends who do this, many times my ex went along... looking back I remember one time (and it really is just dawning on my) I saw a photo of my W with a bunch of her girls on the GNO all of them kissing some freshly shaved bald guy on the head... I asked my W who the guy was, she said "I don't know some guy that was trying to dance with us" well he was dancing with them, and getting kisses. I suggested (because I really was a trusting and gutless beta husband) it made me uncomfortable, she told me to relax they were just having fun it meant nothing, and to her it really did mean nothing - at the time I had complete trust in her so it meant nothing to me either.

Now, with the gift of hindsight I can see how that kind of behavior really meant that we didn't have well defined boundaries and I wasn't prepared to enforce them. My W thought it was completely appropriate, and really what harm is there, its fun right? I too may have even kissed the guy on the head if I were there. But I wasn't there, and how much of a stretch is it for a woman to give him a quick friendly hug next? If they are already hugging and dancing, "innocently" a smack on the bottom might be kind of funny right? He is just like one of the girls now, he even dances in their circle.

I know all this for fact. The times when I would go to the bar with my W and our friends the guys would sit and drink and the girls would be on the dance floor, in a circle the whole time... just as I imagine they do on a GNO. We would watch our wives dance, sometimes join for a song or two, inevitably if we didn't give them attention some guy would try getting in. If there was enough attention from the other guys at the bar one or more of us would go make ourselves visible to stake our territory. Thinking back I realize how stupid I was to let my W go out without me all those times, even though I believed she would have no problem telling a creep to get lost.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I am not defending anything, *simply saying your stance that all married women who go out to dance are looking to cheat/hook up/get felt up is crap. *
> You know you and I will never see eye to eye on this so let's just agree that bacon is awesome, okay?


Not my stance. You know that. We have discussed this enough. 

I think it is ok we do not see "exactly" eye to eye but we are not all that far apart either.


----------



## Entropy3000

Deejo said:


> Make of it what you will ...
> 
> The Science of Sex Appeal (Part 8) - YouTube
> 
> "We found something quite shocking in our research ..." at about 2:03
> 
> Yup ... just out dancing ...


You are confusing things with science and facts again.

:rofl:


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Men get bacon. Men don't get GNO, yet seem to grasp Hooters and Tilted Kilt. So yeah, there's that.


So I am a glutton for punishment.

I frequent when I am with my colleagues :

1) Bone Daddys

2) Tilted Kilt

3) Twin Peaks

4) Sports bars

If my wife had an issue with these I would avoid them.


----------



## sisters359

My friends and I never had this issue. We clearly loved to dance, and our spouses didn't. So we'd be dancing with one another, having a blast, excluding any men trying to break into our little clique, and having our fun while the guys were at tables or the bar. They understood our need to let loose like this, and once we had kids and it was important to have GNO occasionally, our spouses knew that we were doing this for US, not for whatever attention from other men we might get. If a man isn't confident that his wife wants to come home to him, he has a bigger problem than GNO. 

Having said that, if any of the women in the group is an insecure attention-***** (to put it politely, haha), I wouldn't have fun with that woman on GNO b/c it would change the dynamics. My 3 gfs and their spouses were like my (now ex) husband and me, so no one had a problem with it. Yes, we were, as a group, extremely attractive--and yes, men might try to hit on us, but we did not want or need that attention and after blowing off a guy or two, men in the place would know, "don't bother." 

Men who cannot trust their wives to put other men in their proper place (in this scenario) don't have much respect for their wife's maturity. Bring up this specific issue--"Don't you think I can handle myself? If not, why not?" and see how it goes. A calm and rationale conversation might be useful. And if husbands think that married women who are attractive do not get hit on all the time, anyway, and who do not realize that a lot of us have plenty of experience handling ourselves in these situations, might be surprised. With a really insecure man, such knowledge will be threatening, but that is his problem, since the point is NOT that we get hit on, but that we've been successfully handling it for years.


----------



## FrankKissel

Entropy3000 said:


> You are confusing things with science and facts again.
> 
> :rofl:


Said science saying "in a limited study of ONE Austrian nightclub found that women in relationships showed a little more skin when dancing and, subjectively, moved a little more flirtatiously."

Some thoughts:
1. That's hardly enough of a sample size to make a scientific conclusion.
2. It's a HUGE leap to suggest showing a little more skin = cheating. 
3. They make no effort to distinguish between married women vs those with a boyfriend. I think that's a fairly huge distinction to ignore. 
4. Studies show women while ovulating dress more revealingly in general. Why is it a shocking discovery to learn that they do so in a nightclub?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

But all in all I post so much in these threads because I am intrigued by all sides of this because they relate to boundaries.

So often we will agree that boundaries are a good thing, but it is interesting for me to see where folks put theirs. It is like driving though. Those going too slow are idiots and those going faster are crazy.

In practice I am more liberal than I come off. The thing about the meat market GNO is that boundaries are very hard to set and frankly monitor. Maybe that is the issue. The answer by many is you just have to have 100% trust in your spouse, the circumstance and the people who they interact with. Then we throw in alcohol and peer pressure. Some of us handle peer pressure better than others.


----------



## Entropy3000

FrankKissel said:


> Said science saying "in a limited study of ONE Austrian nightclub found that women in relationships showed a little more skin when dancing and, subjectively, moved a little more flirtatiously."
> 
> Some thoughts:
> 1. That's hardly enough of a sample size to make a scientific conclusion.
> 2. It's a HUGE leap to suggest showing a little more skin = cheating.
> 3. They make no effort to distinguish between married women vs those with a boyfriend. I think that's a fairly huge distinction to ignore.
> 4. Studies show women while ovulating dress more revealingly in general. Why is it a shocking discovery to learn that they do so in a nightclub?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No doubt. It is interesting though and I think there is something to this. 

In all seriousness if one is concerned about a woman maybe crossing some boundaries it would be during ovulation ... as crazy as that sounds ... scientifically speaking.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Lon said:


> Well, I know I do. In my city there is a couple known spots where the waitresses dress particularly ****ty, I never went to any of those pubs until recently, after my separation, though it was by chance not really cause I wanted to see some cleavage. The food at one particular sports bar is actually pretty good and cheap for the quanitity plus there are all sorts of games on the TVs. The waitresses there don't look particularly happy, atleast not for me and my ugly guy friends, it is only when they bring the bill that they push up their boobs and turn on the smiles. My usual sports bar hangouts the waitresses are friendly the whole time, not skankified and not really that flirty and yes they sometimes have burly male servers too that fist pump the air when the 'Riders score a TD.
> 
> I understand and believe you when you say many women aren't going to bars to grind on guys... most of the time when the women go they dance in a circle by themselves, so they can say it is just innocent. It is an invitation for guys to try to get and stay in that circle though. Most guys are rejected (ie us girls are not weak we can tell them to fvck off) only the most charming ones get into the circle (they are harmless and we can tell them to fvck off at any time), and of course they will scope out all the girls but usually have a target in mind. If you think it is all innocent it probably means you are not the target. However you will feel compelled to play along especially if there is a single girl in the group.
> 
> I have female friends who do this, many times my ex went along... looking back I remember one time (and it really is just dawning on my) I saw a photo of my W with a bunch of her girls on the GNO all of them kissing some freshly shaved bald guy on the head... I asked my W who the guy was, she said "I don't know some guy that was trying to dance with us" well he was dancing with them, and getting kisses. I suggested (because I really was a trusting and gutless beta husband) it made me uncomfortable, she told me to relax they were just having fun it meant nothing, and to her it really did mean nothing - at the time I had complete trust in her so it meant nothing to me either.
> 
> Now, with the gift of hindsight I can see how that kind of behavior really meant that we didn't have well defined boundaries and I wasn't prepared to enforce them. My W thought it was completely appropriate, and really what harm is there, its fun right? I too may have even kissed the guy on the head if I were there. But I wasn't there, and how much of a stretch is it for a woman to give him a quick friendly hug next? If they are already hugging and dancing, "innocently" a smack on the bottom might be kind of funny right? He is just like one of the girls now, he even dances in their circle.
> 
> I know all this for fact. The times when I would go to the bar with my W and our friends the guys would sit and drink and the girls would be on the dance floor, in a circle the whole time... just as I imagine they do on a GNO. We would watch our wives dance, sometimes join for a song or two, inevitably if we didn't give them attention some guy would try getting in. If there was enough attention from the other guys at the bar one or more of us would go make ourselves visible to stake our territory. Thinking back I realize how stupid I was to let my W go out without me all those times, even though I believed she would have no problem telling a creep to get lost.


I understand you and I get it when you say that many men don't go to sports bars to pick up women, they go to watch the game.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> There have been numerous posts here about this issue. It crops up all the time. Wine bars are still viewed as somehow "bad" for married women because afterall **gasp** alcohol is served there and they are alone. Hooters, sports bars, strip clubs = A-Okay, the excuse being "the women aren't there to pick up the married men". No. But the men SURE are there to pick up the women but somehow that's fine.
> So let me ask you, if there are women at a sports bar who flirts with you....should you be barred from ever going? Are you not able to say no, no thanks, married, (points) to ring? Why on Earth do you suppose us unable to do the same? My guess? Women have an easier time turning down sex. Men? Not so much and they put themselves in that situation and make vast assumptions that us women will behave the same. Lordy and


I find it troubling that you resort to assuming that a poster is a cheater when they fail to agree with you. Fortunately, I am sure there is no projecting going on there.

Having said that, I have no trouble turning down a woman who flirts with me, and I am sure that most woman have no problem with doing that under normal circumstances. I don't think that going to a dance club where picking up people of the opposite sex is the most common goal for attending is the same scenario or basis for comparison. Clearly, you consider them one and the same. We will have to disagree.

Edit - I will also add I have seen no other mention of wine bars being bad until you raised it. I certainly do see them that way. It is a place my wife goes for her GNO's with her friends. It is a friendly place to enjoy some unusual wines in a quiet atmosphere.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

sisters359 said:


> My friends and I never had this issue. We clearly loved to dance, and our spouses didn't. So we'd be dancing with one another, having a blast, excluding any men trying to break into our little clique, and having our fun while the guys were at tables or the bar. They understood our need to let loose like this, and once we had kids and it was important to have GNO occasionally, our spouses knew that we were doing this for US, not for whatever attention from other men we might get. If a man isn't confident that his wife wants to come home to him, he has a bigger problem than GNO.
> 
> Having said that, if any of the women in the group is an insecure attention-***** (to put it politely, haha), I wouldn't have fun with that woman on GNO b/c it would change the dynamics. My 3 gfs and their spouses were like my (now ex) husband and me, so no one had a problem with it. Yes, we were, as a group, extremely attractive--and yes, men might try to hit on us, but we did not want or need that attention and after blowing off a guy or two, men in the place would know, "don't bother."
> 
> Men who cannot trust their wives to put other men in their proper place (in this scenario) don't have much respect for their wife's maturity. Bring up this specific issue--"Don't you think I can handle myself? If not, why not?" and see how it goes. A calm and rationale conversation might be useful. And if husbands think that married women who are attractive do not get hit on all the time, anyway, and who do not realize that a lot of us have plenty of experience handling ourselves in these situations, might be surprised. With a really insecure man, such knowledge will be threatening, but that is his problem, since the point is NOT that we get hit on, but that we've been successfully handling it for years.


Oh nooooooo. Women dancing with other women, shirking off men and not having some sexual undertone? Say it isn't so. Again, just because men cannot do it, doesn't mean us women cannot. Unreal.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Tall Average Guy said:


> I find it troubling that you resort to assuming that a poster is a cheater when they fail to agree with you. Fortunately, I am sure there is no projecting going on there.
> 
> Having said that, I have no trouble turning down a woman who flirts with me, and I am sure that most woman have no problem with doing that under normal circumstances. I don't think that going to a dance club where picking up people of the opposite sex is the most common goal for attending is the same scenario or basis for comparison. Clearly, you consider them one and the same. We will have to disagree.
> 
> Edit - I will also add I have seen no other mention of wine bars being bad until you raised it. I certainly do see them that way. It is a place my wife goes for her GNO's with her friends. It is a friendly place to enjoy some unusual wines in a quiet atmosphere.


This is no longer about the OP. She was a drive by poster and barely came back. This is about the same men who post here about going to Hooters, sports bars and what not and saying it's just "Guys being with guys" as some sort of male right yet rile on women who go to a dance hall with their married girl friends and view "women being women" as some sort of formula for cheating. It's crap. It's bullsh!t and it's wrong.


----------



## Kobo

Tall Average Guy said:


> I find it troubling that you resort to assuming that a poster is a cheater when they fail to agree with you. Fortunately, I am sure there is no projecting going on there.
> 
> Having said that, I have no trouble turning down a woman who flirts with me, and I am sure that most woman have no problem with doing that under normal circumstances. I don't think that going to a dance club where picking up people of the opposite sex is the most common goal for attending is the same scenario or basis for comparison. Clearly, you consider them one and the same. We will have
> Edit - I will also add I have seen no other mention of wine bars being bad until you raised it. I certainly do see them that way. It is a place my wife goes for her GNO's with her friends. It is a friendly place to enjoy some unusual wines in a quiet atmosphere.


It's called moving the goalposts and happens often on TAM. The OP wa ready to live her single life fantasies by clubbing, drinking, spending a night in a hotel and sleeping till brunch. This doesn't equate to 5 ladies meeting at a lyb and dancing in a circle. You guys aren't even arguing the Sam issues. "me and my girls dance with each other and then go home to are families" is not what's on the itinerary for this specific GNO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Kobo said:


> It's called moving the goalposts and happens often on TAM. The OP wa ready to live her single life fantasies by clubbing, drinking, spending a night in a hotel and sleeping till brunch. This doesn't equate to 5 ladies meeting at a lyb and dancing in a circle. You guys aren't even arguing the Sam issues. "me and my girls dance with each other and then go home to are families" is not what's on the itinerary for this specific GNO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The OP was talking about throwing a party for her friend who has been married for 16 years and never gets out. It wasn't about a woman who spends nights in hotels, drinks until dawn and acts like a ****.
Talk about moving the goal posts. Just don't. You couldn't hit it with Janikowski's foot.


----------



## MrK

Nobody will deny that a significant percentage of married women who frequent meat markets are partaking in behavior their husbands would NOT approve of if they knew what was going on. Fair enough? So, how do I know if my wife is one of those that dances in a protective man-free bubble or one that is looking for free drinks, grinds and kisses all night? 

And nobody will deny that some of the man-free bubble gals just COULDN'T pass up a drink from that one guy. A mistake happens.

Not just my gut, but over 2 years of research on this and other forums has me convinced that a strong majority of married clubbers are partaking in activities their husbands would not approve of. A husband would be CRAZY to let his wife frequent these places.

I think what Bright eyes is TRYING to say is that it is VERY possible that a woman can go to these places and keep it 100% innocent. What she's having trouble saying is that if your wife does like this type of activity, be VERY involved in her decisions. Have conversations about boundaries. These places can be dangerous. Be careful.

Right BE?

Simple test. Go with your wife one night. Bring the hubbies of other wives. Grab a table. Get ready to drink and watch. If your wife shows she CAN and DOES have a fun, innocent time, for 3 hours, with her husband there, it at least CAN happen with him not there. When my wife was clubbing, she wouldn't DARE to bring me along. After 15 minutes she would totally lose the argument that her and her wingwoman can have fun with me watching. It would be like watching an operation without anesthesia. NO WAY would she have brought me along.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> The OP was talking about throwing a party for her friend who has been married for 16 years and never gets out. It wasn't about a woman who spends nights in hotels, drinks until dawn and acts like a ****.
> Talk about moving the goal posts. Just don't. You couldn't hit it with Janikowski's foot.


you're wrong
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Kobo said:


> you're wrong
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I'm sure I am. Ahem, it's also "You're wrong".


----------



## MrK

And my wife's clubbing stopped when one of her new little friends called her to set up a date and I answered the phone. You see, I trusted her and I didn't have the luxury of a forum like this to tell me how stupid I was for doing so.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yes, I'm sure I am. Ahem, it's also "You're wrong".


I'm always glad to educate
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Kobo said:


> I'm always glad to educate
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As am I. A sentence starts with a capital letter. FYI.


----------



## Kobo

MrK said:


> And my wife's clubbing stopped when one of her new little friends called her to set up a date and I answered the phone. You see, I trusted her and I didn't have the luxury of a forum like this to tell me how stupid I was for doing so.


That "date" was just going to watch their bags as they danced around in a circle. You just don't understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Entropy3000 said:


> Let these ancient men stay home with the children while the women get to play! The men have done this for centuries. Well not these men ... but that does not matter.
> 
> Anyway, I see the answer as compatibility. Just marry a man with very Beta traits who is willing to sit home while his wife has fun with her friends in the company of more Apha men. This works. They can join TAM while their wives are out all night and ask for advice on manning up..


No, we're talking double standard here. THESE men are fine with going on hunting trips while their wives sit home with the kids but then they throw a fit when the women want to go out for a night to celebrate a birthday? Women like to go out to dinner and dance WITH EACH OTHER and THAT'S a problem but it's OK if men go away for a weekend of hunting? How do you know what they are REALLY doing? 

Let's get paranoid now.... 

If it's good for the gander, it should be good for the goose. 

And SO what if the guys in the bars are eyeing the ladies? Let 'em! As long as a married woman knows how to behave then what's the diff WHO is looking at her? :scratchhead:

Do you know how many men have hit on me over the years? PLENTY. Often with my husband standing 20 feet away! I just tell them I'm MARRIED and not interested. It's amazing how well that works. I've never so much as KISSED another guy and I've gone to plenty of outings with female friends and traveled all over the country on my own. Many of my friends are guys and most of my hobbies have been male oriented. Somehow I've managed to survive in this big bad world! We women are NOT poor little lambs stuck in the woods as the wolves circle 'round and 'round. 

Come on..give us some cred for having a modicum of intelligence and common sense and yes, we are capable of handling a guy with a pick up line.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> As am I. A sentence starts with a capital letter. FYI.


Your second try wasn't any funnier than your first. Keep at it though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acorn

Freak On a Leash said:


> No, we're talking double standard here. THESE men are fine with going on hunting trips while their wives sit home with the kids but then they throw a fit when the women want to go out for a night to celebrate a birthday? Women like to go out to dinner and dance WITH EACH OTHER and THAT'S a problem but it's OK if men go away for a weekend of hunting? How do you know what they are REALLY doing?


I do not understand why the men would not just speak up if they have objections with GNO and women would not just speak up if they have objections with the hunting trips? Then talk it out like adults and come to a compromise.

There's no double standard there and it seems like a winning formula... a lot more so than blaming men and being defensive.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Entropy3000 said:


> The topic is about meat markets, staying out all night all night, drinking heavily and dancing up close and personal with strange men.


Really?  Perhaps you should go back to Page 1 because the topic that I read is about a bunch of woman who want to take a mutual friend out to dinner and dancing and sleep in without having to worry about housework or the kids and as a result they are getting grief about it from their husband's who do the same thing, albeit in a hunting trip. 

These women simply want to engage in some "Girl Time". There's no talk about getting inebriated or going to a single's club and grinding up against men or picking up men or ANYTHING that you have been going on about and I would think that any loyal, trustworthy spouse would have NO problem with telling someone who is coming on to them to get the heck away from them. 

Like I said, I'm willing to bet that there are just as many "pick ups" going on in the "safety" of their living rooms on social networking sites as is done in the supposed "meat markets."

BTW, I go to rock clubs to see live bands perform ALL the time and I've never had any problems with getting picked up. I lived in New York City for 5 years and went to dance clubs there and _somehow_ I managed to keep myself from getting gang banged on pool tables...:rofl:

You are one paranoid dude. Does your wife wear a chador and veil when she goes out into the big, bad outside world filled with those nasty, scheming, sex depraved men just waiting to grab and fondle and have their way with her?


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Angel5112 said:


> I don't think GNO's generally lead to anything dubious, even if they are held at a bar/club. I also don't agree that men go to sports bars or hooters to pick up women. Every time my H has gone to a sports bar it has been to drink and watch sports with a group of his friends. They love sports and I would rather not have a bunch of shouting kids, I mean men, at my house, monopolizing my TV.
> 
> Men love going to hooters because they get to watch women in tight clothing bring them food, and the wings are actually kind of good. I like watching that guy who insists on working out without his shirt on run on the treadmill. Women, married or not, are going to check out other men. Men, married or not, are going to check out other women. So long as my H has enough respect not to ogle some other woman in front of me, I'm good.


I personally think that both men and women need some "bonding time" with their same-gender buddies. There's a camaraderie you have that is altered when the "significant other" is there or even someone of the opposite sex. 

Let's take a bunch of guys watching a sports event together. You think they are going to have the same good time if one of the wives, especially a wife who isn't into the game, is there? I think not. It alters the group chemistry and changes the atmosphere. 

Same goes with a bunch of gals who want to get together and dance to Lady Gaga. It's not that anything BAD will happen, they just want to enjoy each other's company and have a good time. What's wrong with that? 

As far as checking out other women/men. Well..DUH! Just because you are on a diet doesn't mean you can't read the menu. 

Or as I've said to my husband, "I don't care where you get your appetite, as long as you eat at home." :rofl:



> Personally I think all the issues regarding GNO's/BNO's, unless you have a valid reason or red flag, just make you look incredibly jealous or insecure. That being said, if you partner has a problem with it, go somewhere else instead or take them with you. I hardly ever go anywhere without my H. It is more fun with him there.


I see it ALL the time with my guy friends. The wives have a problem with EVERYTHING...whether it's going fishing or playing poker or watching football. It's not that they are afraid the guys are having an affair, it's more of a control issue. I can see that being the same situation with men not wanting their wives to go out with their girlfriends. It's like they feel threatened or something..

IMO you get married to have a relationship, not be controlled. We're all adults and if there IS a problem then sit down, talk it out and compromise but don't dictate terms. 

To be honest, I don't want to have my husband hanging out with some of my friends because he gets bored or isn't interested in the stuff we're doing and starts whining about going home. There are times when he should stay home and I feel the same way. I tried playing poker with him and his friends a number of times but I don't LIKE playing cards so it's just easier and more of a relief for me to just let him go and have fun with his friends. 

"Joined at the waist and sharing one brain" does NOT always make for a successful relationship.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Freak On a Leash said:


> Really?  Perhaps you should go back to Page 1 because the topic that I read is about a bunch of woman who want to take a mutual friend out to dinner and dancing and sleep in without having to worry about housework or the kids and as a result they are getting grief about it from their husband's who do the same thing, albeit in a hunting trip.


No, it's not about that at all. It's about women wanting to **** it up and drink 'til dawn and act like hookers....don't you know? Ridiculous, lame and tired.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, it's not about that at all. It's about women wanting to **** it up and drink 'til dawn and act like hookers....don't you know?


Glad to see you finally getting it. Preach woman, preach.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, it's not about that at all. It's about women wanting to **** it up and drink 'til dawn and act like hookers....don't you know? Ridiculous, lame and tired.


:rofl: :lol:

This thread reminds me of the game we played as kids called "Telephone", where you would whisper something to someone down a long line of people and by the time you got to the end it was completely changed. 

A bunch of married women want to go out for dinner and dancing on Page 1 and by Page 15 they are hookers soliciting clients and servicing them behind the bar. :rofl:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Freak On a Leash said:


> :rofl: :lol:
> 
> This thread reminds me of the game we played as kids called "Telephone", where you would whisper something to someone down a long line of people and by the time you got to the end it was completely changed.
> 
> A bunch of married women want to go out for dinner and dancing on Page 1 and by Page 15 they are hookers soliciting clients and servicing them behind the bar. :rofl:


Yup. The projection is just unreal and says a lot. :rofl: Whatever. I know who I am and what I do. If men want to label me as a hooker for having a GNO, I'll take that chance and no, I won't respect them in the morning.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> BrightEyes, I read your one line like this...
> "If men want to label me a hooker for having a GYNO, I'll take that chance..."


I'm only a hooker if the gyno is a man. Got it?


----------



## Freak On a Leash

:lol: :rofl: *tosses Trenton another beer* :toast:


----------



## sisters359

Somewhere on p. 13, there was a post about "throwing in a little alcohol and peer-pressure."

That is the point I'm trying to make. If you don't trust your spouse b/c s/he can't handle his or her liquor, or because they don't "handle peer pressure very well," the marital problem is a lot bigger than GNO and ignoring that fact while "forbidding" GNO is like covering a slit throat with a bandaid. It's gonna get ugly if you are married to someone who is that immature. Face it and encourage them to get some counseling so they can grow the heck up!


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Trenton said:


> You're like an alcohol detector! I think you caught me last night. Same bottle of red. :rofl:


I tend to be a white zinfandel/Blue Moon type of gal. 

Come on out to the Shore. We'll go drinking together and pick up hot young single men as we dance at club bars. :rofl:


----------



## Freak On a Leash

You are at the Shore? I thought you were in Trenton! :rofl:

My husband doesn't care what I do. We're separated. Very convenient. 

Excuse me while I tend to the long line of men lining up outside my apartment door..:rofl:


----------



## Entropy3000

sisters359 said:


> Somewhere on p. 13, there was a post about "throwing in a little alcohol and peer-pressure."
> 
> That is the point I'm trying to make. If you don't trust your spouse b/c s/he can't handle his or her liquor, or because they don't "handle peer pressure very well," the marital problem is a lot bigger than GNO and ignoring that fact while "forbidding" GNO is like covering a slit throat with a bandaid. It's gonna get ugly if you are married to someone who is that immature. Face it and encourage them to get some counseling so they can grow the heck up!


I think a wife going out to do this stuff with other men does indeed indicate a much bigger issue. The point was that you have added a number of elements together and peer pressure / toxic friends are a very common problem with many marriages. Alcohol is a social lubricant. It lowers inhibitions. I see peer pressure all of the time. Remember this is not about a marriage friendly GNO. This is already about the wife who is pushing the envelope by staying out all night, drinking heavily and dancing with other men. This in itself is disrespectful if the boundary was to not dance with other men. It is broken trust. Sure.

The OP mentioned such peer pressure. In two contexts. The peer pressure that one husband had on another AND the wives had the peer pressure where a wife who frequented the clubs was getting the wife of sixteen years involved for the first time. Telling her that her husband is wrong for objecting.

That is peer pressure so it is dorectly related the OP.

I am not a believer in blind absolute trust. I do trust my wife not to put herself out there in this fashion. If she did she would break that trust.

Men put peer pressure on other men to behave like them. They get lap dances from strippers and then encourage others to do so. Even if a man does not want a lap dance, it would be common for the others to buy him one. Like the reason for not having the lpa dance was the money. Some men cave to this. A real man would not. But the alcohol and peer pressure are there. However, I think a man putting himself in that position at all is disrespectful if their spouse was bothered by it.
So whether he feels he can be truets or not if he does this anyway despite his spouses feelings ... he is an @sshole. If hsi wife is cool with it then great. Boundaries.

Trust me.


----------



## that_girl

Trenton said:


> Ummm...I'm an example of what happens when you have alcohol and no peer pressure. It isn't pretty. roflmao
> 
> Okay, I admit my butt is still in tact.
> 
> This topic really seems ridiculous right about now.


I can't wait until Hubs gets home with the wine.

Omg...at first I wrote "whine". LOLOLLL

It's been a long day.

GNI! (Girls' Night In!) lolll


----------



## heartsbeating

When is he getting home?

I hope he knows what's waiting for him!! ...and I don't mean the stew


----------



## that_girl

:rofl:

Omgggg an enema? 



:rofl:

Hubs is still stuck in traffic. Grrr...


----------



## PaGuy

Wow.. Im at a loss for words, this thread is growing like a cancer.


----------



## heartsbeating

Trenton said:


> LOL!
> 
> It ain't as pretty as it once was!


lmao. you're a hot mess!


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Entropy3000 said:


> I This is already about the wife who is pushing the envelope by staying out all night, drinking heavily and dancing with other men.
> 
> The OP mentioned such peer pressure. In two contexts. The peer pressure that one husband had on another AND the wives had the peer pressure where a wife who frequented the clubs was getting the wife of sixteen years involved for the first time. Telling her that her husband is wrong for objecting.
> 
> That is peer pressure so it is dorectly related the OP.


 :scratchhead:  Hold on..let me dig this up...



vaflower said:


> Need some honest opinions here...
> 
> I have been married for over 10 years, my best friend has been married to her husband for over 16 years.
> My best friends birthday is coming up and I wanted to get a bunch of girls together, have dinner, some drinks, go dancing and just hang out. We were planning to make it an overnighter and the next morning get up late, do the brunch thing and return to our lives. She is a mother of a teenager and rarely gets out of the house without her husband and son. She was all for this girls night out... until...
> She told her husband we were going and he completely flipped out. He thinks it's inappropriate for her to go out without him because she'll be at a bar, club or a restaurant. He's given her the "its not that I dont trust you, I dont trust other men" speech. Now my husband has started in on the same thing, suggesting the only reason we want to go out is to act like we're single.
> I can safely and totally honestly say that this is not a frequent occurance, maybe once a year, and that we really dont pick up men or behave inappropriately, we're pretty boring. The other women going with us are married as well.
> I can also say that our husbands go out of town for guys retreats for sports for full weekends at a time and she and I both support them having an outlet.
> The reason we never go out... because the guys throw a fit EVERY time. My questions are this...
> Why are men so threatened with a girls night out?
> Whats with the double standard?
> Is this something everyone runs into or is it just us?


I'm trying to figure out the part where the women are "drinking heavily and dancing with other men".. :scratchhead:

Nope..don't see that listed anywhere. I see the part about dinner, some drinks, dancing, hanging out. Sleeping in, eating brunch and going home. 

Yep, that's a recipe for disaster. 

I don't see anything about "frequenting clubs"...

OH..you mean the ONCE A YEAR outing! Yeah, she's really a troublemaking party animal, isn't she? I think she mentioned that between the part where she mentions that they do this once a year and are pretty boring and rarely get out without the husband and son. :slap: 

And then there's the husbands who frequently get out for retreats with their friends yet seem to throw a fit every time their wives want to do the same... :banghead:

I think you are right. Keep 'em barefoot and pregnant and chained to the radiator. That way they don't be gettin' into no trouble. Yes sir Massa we be keepin' des wimmen in 'der place: In the house birthin' dose babies and scrubbin' de floors! :rofl:


----------



## that_girl

:rofl:

OMG I just laughed out loud and scared my dog.

I woudl rather stay home and drink with a few friends...or alone...or online. Crowds at bars bug me.


----------



## heartsbeating

I'd rather drink with Trenton!

Hilarious .......now go drink some water and straighten yourself up a smidgen for hubs.


----------



## Entropy3000

Kobo said:


> It's called moving the goalposts and happens often on TAM. *The OP wa ready to live her single life fantasies by clubbing, drinking, spending a night in a hotel and sleeping till brunch. This doesn't equate to 5 ladies meeting at a lyb and dancing in a circle.* You guys aren't even arguing the Sam issues. "me and my girls dance with each other and then go home to are families" is not what's on the itinerary for this specific GNO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:

Indeed those darn goal post move don't they. 

The bolded is one of the best quotes I have seen on this board.

I love it and it is so very true. Before it is over I will be seen as arguing against girl scout cookies.


----------



## Entropy3000

heartsbeating said:


> I'd rather drink with Trenton!
> 
> Hilarious .......now go drink some water and straighten yourself up a smidgen for hubs.


This was my fantasy over in the Fantasy section. Hanging out at the Galvez with Trenton and TRBE.


----------



## that_girl

mmmm girl scout cookies.


----------



## Entropy3000

Freak On a Leash said:


> :scratchhead:  Hold on..let me dig this up...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to figure out the part where the women are "drinking heavily and dancing with other men".. :scratchhead:
> 
> Nope..don't see that listed anywhere. I see the part about dinner, some drinks, dancing, hanging out. Sleeping in, eating brunch and going home.
> 
> Yep, that's a recipe for disaster.
> 
> I don't see anything about "frequenting clubs"...
> 
> OH..you mean the ONCE A YEAR outing! Yeah, she's really a troublemaking party animal, isn't she? I think she mentioned that between the part where she mentions that they do this once a year and are pretty boring and rarely get out without the husband and son. :slap:
> 
> And then there's the husbands who frequently get out for retreats with their friends yet seem to throw a fit every time their wives want to do the same... :banghead:
> 
> I think you are right. Keep 'em barefoot and pregnant and chained to the radiator. That way they don't be gettin' into no trouble. Yes sir Massa we be keepin' des wimmen in 'der place: In the house birthin' dose babies and scrubbin' de floors! :rofl:


They said they were going out dancing. When challenged with this they did not say. OH we are just girls dancing ina circle. It is not a leap. It is a leap to assume something else. This was back when they were posting.


I don't know nothing about birthin no babies -- Gone With the Wind

Yes, certainly a man not wanting his wife to be out playing with the boys is exactly the same as you say.

Once a year or once in 25 years. I guess we all now believe in the hall pass. A marriage break as long as it occurs fiscally. So it is ok for the guys to go get laid at the brothel as long as it is just once a year?

I really do wish the OP who may or may not have even been a married woman would have further elaborated on what their plans were and exactly what doofus and Billy Joe Jim Bob were up to.


----------



## that_girl

Trenton said:


> Where? Are you f'ing with me? I love me some caramel coconut things they sell.


Samoas..mmmmmmmm.....I put them in the freezer...so good.

In my last GNO, I went to my friend's house to talk trash and eat DingDongs. :rofl:

remember those?

I ate 3.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

that_girl said:


> :
> 
> 
> I woudd rather stay home and drink with a few friends...or alone...or online.


Sing along now...

_I drink alone, yeah
With nobody else
I drink alone, yeah
With nobody else
You know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

Every morning just before breakfast
I don't want no coffee or tea
Just me and good buddy Wiser
That's all I ever need
'Cause I drink alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

The other night I laid sleeping
And I woke from a terrible dream
So I caught up my pal Jack Daniel's
And his partner Jimmy Beam
And we drank alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

The other day I got invited to a party
But I stayed home instead
Just me and my pal Johnny Walker
And his brothers Black and Red
And we drank alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

My whole family done give up on me
And it makes me feel oh so bad
The only one who will hang out with me
Is my dear Old Grand-Dad
And we drink alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself_ :toast: :toast:


----------



## that_girl

Omg...this thread is giving me the giggles.

And when i wrote that, I almost wrote "herpes". :rofl:

Wtf.


----------



## that_girl

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :rofl:

Omg. That sent me over the edge. :rofl:

I'm in a good mood tonight  But this made me LAWL.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Entropy3000 said:


> I don't know nothing about birthin no babies -- Gone With the Wind


:lol: :rofl: I like a man with a sense of humor. :smthumbup:



> Yes, certainly a man not wanting his wife to be out playing with the boys is exactly the same as you say.
> 
> Once a year or once in 25 years. I guess we all now believe in the hall pass. A marriage break as long as it occurs fiscally. So it is ok for the guys to go get laid at the brothel as long as it is just once a year?
> 
> I really do wish the OP who may or may not have even been a married woman would have further elaborated on what their plans were and exactly what doofus and Billy Joe Jim Bob were up to.


I got the impression that OP is married. Maybe it was that first one or two lines that stated that she was married 10 years. Or the other one that stated that they were ALL married?  

I think we are into the proverbial Apples Vs Oranges when you compare a night of dancing at a bar with going to a brothel. 

Going dancing with your girlfriends is NOT the same as going to a brothel! Holy crap, are you like into that movie from the '80s where they banned dancing in some small town. What was that called again? "Footloose"? 

I think we are overreacting a bit..wouldn't you say? :rofl: You act like these women are going out on the prowl looking to screw any man with something hanging between his legs when ALL they want to do is dance to Black Eyed Peas "I gotta a feeling", have a few glasses of wine, sing "Happy Birthday" to their friend and sleep in late. Sheesh. 

I think you need a few drinks yourself. Lighten up.


----------



## heartsbeating

Entropy3000 said:


> This was my fantasy over in the Fantasy section. Hanging out at the Galvez with Trenton and TRBE.


There's a Fantasy section...?


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Trenton said:


> Are you trying to tell me politely you're not hanging with me at the Shore? :rofl:


Hey, just PM me and we'll get together. :toast: You'll have to wait on me while I pick up all those eligible men just waiting to jump my bones though. It'll only take a few minutes because I'm into quickies. :rofl:


----------



## Entropy3000

Freak On a Leash said:


> No, we're talking double standard here.
> 
> THESE men are fine with going on hunting trips while their wives sit home with the kids but then they throw a fit when the women want to go out for a night to celebrate a birthday?
> 
> *Those guys are @ssholes.*
> 
> Women like to go out to dinner and dance WITH EACH OTHER *The OP person never said they were going to dance with other women. *
> 
> and THAT'S a problem but it's OK if men go away for a weekend of hunting?
> 
> *Actually I don't see the issue with the hunting unless they are going to a club instead. Are they hanging out with wanton women? Women who want in their pants? If so then that is disrespectful.*
> 
> How do you know what they are REALLY doing?
> 
> *This is the point and you finally got there. Trust me. Just trust me. Pay no attention to the guy with his hand where it should not be.*
> 
> Let's get paranoid now....
> 
> If it's good for the gander, it should be good for the goose.
> 
> And SO what if the guys in the bars are eyeing the ladies? Let 'em! As long as a married woman knows how to behave then what's the diff WHO is looking at her? :scratchhead:
> 
> Do you know how many men have hit on me over the years? PLENTY. Often with my husband standing 20 feet away! I just tell them I'm MARRIED and not interested.
> 
> *This does not deter the serious guys. A wedding ring is a target and you may be the prize.*
> 
> It's amazing how well that works. I've never so much as KISSED another guy and I've gone to plenty of outings with female friends and traveled all over the country on my own. Many of my friends are guys and most of my hobbies have been male oriented. Somehow I've managed to survive in this big bad world! We women are NOT poor little lambs stuck in the woods as the wolves circle 'round and 'round.
> 
> *No one is saying you cannot protect yourself. It is about respecting your husband dear lady. If he is ok with your many male friends and your activities, you are golden.*
> 
> Come on..give us some cred for having a modicum of intelligence and common sense and yes, we are capable of handling a guy with a pick up line.  *NO. You just have to be where the guys are I guess. Have fun. I would have more trust for a woman who did not want to hang out in those places.*


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Trenton said:


> For the record I dance all the time. If your friends don't dance they're no friends of mine (forgot the rest of the song so fill it in right here).


:smthumbup: Men without Hats!

_Ah we can dance if we want to, we can leave your friends behind
Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're are no friends of mine
I say, we can go where we want to, A place where they will never find
And we can act like we come from out of this world
Leave the real one far behind,
and we can dance

We can dance if we want to, we can leave your friends behind
Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're are no friends of mine
I say, we can go where we want to a place where they will never find
And we can act like we come from out of this world
Leave the real one far behind
and we can dance.

Francois!

Ah we can go when we want to the night is young and so am I
And we can dress real neat from our hats to our feet
and surprise 'em with the victory cry

I Say we can act if want to if we don't nobody will
And you can act real rude and totally removed
And i can act like an imbecile
I say we can dance, we can dance everything out control
We can dance, we can dance we're doing it wall to wall
We can dance, we can dance everybody look at your hands
We can dance, we can dance everybody takin' the chance
Safety dance
Oh well the safety dance
Ah yes the safety dance_

:yay: :bounce:


----------



## Entropy3000

Freak On a Leash said:


> Really?  Perhaps you should go back to Page 1 because the topic that I read is about a bunch of woman who want to take a mutual friend out to dinner and dancing and sleep in without having to worry about housework or the kids and as a result they are getting grief about it from their husband's who do the same thing, albeit in a hunting trip.
> 
> These women simply want to engage in some "Girl Time". There's no talk about getting inebriated or going to a single's club and grinding up against men or picking up men or ANYTHING that you have been going on about and I would think that any loyal, trustworthy spouse would have NO problem with telling someone who is coming on to them to get the heck away from them.
> 
> Like I said, I'm willing to bet that there are just as many "pick ups" going on in the "safety" of their living rooms on social networking sites as is done in the supposed "meat markets."
> 
> BTW, I go to rock clubs to see live bands perform ALL the time and I've never had any problems with getting picked up. *I lived in New York City for 5 years and went to dance clubs there* and _somehow_ I managed to keep myself from getting gang banged on pool tables...:rofl:
> 
> You are one paranoid dude. Does your wife wear a chador and veil when she goes out into the big, bad outside world filled with those nasty, scheming, sex depraved men just waiting to grab and fondle and have their way with her?


I should have guessed. That explains much. That is a whole culture unto itself and is exactly what I am talking about. Badda Bing Badda Boom. Forgeddaboutit.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Entropy3000 said:


> I should have guessed. That explains much. That is a whole culture unto itself and is exactly what I am talking about. Badda Bing Badda Boom. Forgeddaboutit.


Ah HA! You have a problem with New Yawkers! I knew it! 

Why don't youse come on here and say dat to my face, eh? :bringiton: 

I'll show you.. TAKE THAT AND THAT!!!

:moon: :whip: :BoomSmilie_anim: :2gunsfiring_v1:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Indeed those darn goal post move don't they.
> 
> The bolded is one of the best quotes I have seen on this board.
> 
> I love it and it is so very true. Before it is over I will be seen as arguing against girl scout cookies.


Did you ACTUALLY read the post or did you just rely on what men here said. I think when you hear GNO, your ears automatically perk up, images of orgies enter your skull and you salivate. Just because it turns you on, doesn't mean we are doing it. 
Goal posts moved indeed and you and Kobo couldn't hit it with Jesus Christ's foot. 
9 women came here and said we don't act like that but all you continue to say is "Yes you do". Why is that? Because Athol tells you so? 
Nobody argues against Girl Scout cookies, nobody.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Entropy3000, 

Me and my friends Snookie and The Situation..we be comin' down dere to take care of youse guys and cuttin' your wife free of dat radiator. Tell her to put some dancin' shoes on because we be goin' to the clubs to get laid and she's welcome to join us...

:rofl: :rofl: :FIREdevil: :woohoo:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> This was my fantasy over in the Fantasy section. Hanging out at the Galvez with Trenton and TRBE.


If the Galvez is your fantasy, you aren't my guy. I prefer Hotel Zaza. Afterall, it close to town, expensive and easier for me to do my [email protected] I am sure Trenton's tastes run the same. We wouldn't want a 1 hour drive afterall. Too much wasted time. We need a hotel 5 minutes from happening bars. Easier to blow a guy that way and get back to the club!


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If the Galvez is your fantasy, you aren't my guy. I prefer Hotel Zaza. Afterall, it close to town, expensive and easier for me to do my [email protected] I am sure Trenton's tastes run the same. We wouldn't want a 1 hour drive afterall. Too much wasted time. We need a hotel 5 minutes from happening bars. Easier to blow a guy that way and get back to the club!


:lol::rofl: Hey! Don't forget me. I'll bring the necessary "toys" and whatnot. :whip::whip::ezpi_wink1:

Can't play a game without toys.  You can't miss me. I'm the one doing the "Badda bing, lemme see your Thing" dance. :rofl:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

heartsbeating said:


> There's a Fantasy section...?


Only in his mind. It involves sexy unicorns, big busted women who run around naked with only their hair covering their pert nipples and rainbows that fart platinum. 

This entire thread is insane. If a woman had come here and said "men's night out debacle" it would have had a vastly different outcome including you are controlling, he wants to get away from you and the too famous....if you gave him sex he wouldn't want to hang out with his friends. Good grief and


----------



## Entropy3000

FrenchFry said:


> Entropy3000:
> 
> Has your wife ever been with you to a Tilted Kilt?
> My bff worked there for a couple months, their "uniforms" are uh...skimpy to say the least. Made bank though.
> 
> You asked how husbands could get comfortable with club GNOs. I gather I'm one of the only ones in the thread who do this with some regularity so here is what we do:
> 
> *He has a standing invitation to join us, whenever. As long as he will be engaged in the evening and not at the bar pouting, he is more than welcome.
> 
> *He can call whenever and I'll answer. Easy enough.
> 
> *Wedding rings do not stop skeezers. Stilletos do.
> 
> *I go to him at the end of the night.
> 
> *I buy my own drinks on my own card.
> 
> *He is well acquainted with my friends and their SOs.
> 
> *uh, he trusts me and doesn't read PUA ish.
> 
> This is a great discussion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are awesome. You actually addressed what was being asked for. How folks can bridge the gap.

I actually do not go to the local Tilted Kilt. Yes I agree it is a tad bit sleazy but in all transparency that is why I put it out there. It is not by any means a strip club. BUT, you make a good point. I am planning on taking her on my next trip where that group does frequent the Tilted Kilt. I will bring her. I am very confident she is ok with this based on our discussions. Elaborating on the specifics is another thread entirely but probably related.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Therealbrighteyes said:


> This entire thread is insane. If a woman had come here and said "men's night out debacle" it would have had a vastly different outcome including you are controlling, he wants to get away from you and the too famous....if you gave him sex he wouldn't want to hang out with his friends. Good grief and


ABSOLUTELY! :iagree:

I know for a fact that there are about 10 different threads in the Men's Clubhouse dealing with the fact that a man can't go out with his buddies in peace to go to a bachelor party or a bar or a strip club. The women are called shrews, beotches, controlling, etc, etc. No problem there. 

But if the WOMEN want to go out and *gasp* dance and have a few drinks they are one step away from wh*ores. Nice. Welcome to the 21st Century.


----------



## Entropy3000

michzz said:


> I know I don't get out much, but I've never even heard of a Tilted Kilt.


Google it. My company culture these days is work hard and party hard. I used to work for a place that forbid the workes from going to Hooters for lunch. Big difference. I don't do that much partying myself but when I visit the home site with my team that is spread out over the U.S. I do enjoy the sports bars and I like beer. 

The Tilted Kilt is a popular place with these folks. Usually though it is something more like a Humperdinks or a tavern.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> I should have guessed. That explains much. That is a whole culture unto itself and is exactly what I am talking about. Badda Bing Badda Boom. Forgeddaboutit.


So your basis of how New Yorkers talk/act is from Tony Soprano, a guy who lived in NEW JERSEY? Have you ever met anybody from Tribeca, Park Slope or the Lower East Side?


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> You sound really professional but what you're saying doesn't really seem to matter. Is this just me. OMGZZZ do I usually sound like this?
> 
> *I need an enema*.


A whole other level of kink.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So your basis of how New Yorkers talk/act is from Tony Soprano, a guy who lived in NEW JERSEY? Have you ever met anybody from Tribeca, Park Slope or the Lower East Side?


Don't forget about all those other wonderful shows..."Jersey Shore", "Real Housewives of New Jersey", etc, etc

Come on babe, don't you youse know we all act like dat? Bein' from Joisey an' all? 

I be de worse of both worlds, bein' from both, havin' lived in de Village and now be down at de Shore. I pack a gun before headin' out to de bars to pick up guys. If they turn me down I shoot dem balls off 
cuz if I can't have 'em no one can!  :gun: :2gunsfiring_v1:


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> Who is Galvez and how did I miss this? Does he or she have chains and a radiator that he or she carries on his or her back?
> 
> Check it out. I am so gender neutral.
> 
> hahahahahahahahaha


The Galvez is a somewhat romantic hotel down in Galveston. Not that far from TRBE. The Del is really nice though in CA. TRBE is familiar with that one too.

Radiator and chains ... What exit?


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> Where? Are you f'ing with me? I love me some caramel coconut things they sell.


Samoas. I like the thin mints ... chilled ... like my women.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Entropy3000 said:


> The Galvez is a somewhat romantic hotel down in Galveston. Not that far from TRBE. The Del is really nice though in CA. TRBE is familiar with that one too.


Do you know TRBE personally? :scratchhead:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> The Galvez is a somewhat romantic hotel down in Galveston. Not that far from TRBE. The Del is really nice though in CA. TRBE is familiar with that one too.


Yes, I am familiar with hotels.....I'm a [email protected] afterall. 
The Galvez is nice, at least from what I could see on my knees and the Hotel Del Coronado was "eh" since I was on my back the entire time....I didn't get the full effect. Both times were after a GNO, btw.


----------



## Entropy3000

Freak On a Leash said:


> :lol: :rofl: I like a man with a sense of humor. :smthumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> I got the impression that OP is married. Maybe it was that first one or two lines that stated that she was married 10 years. Or the other one that stated that they were ALL married?
> 
> I think we are into the proverbial Apples Vs Oranges when you compare a night of dancing at a bar with going to a brothel.
> 
> Going dancing with your girlfriends is NOT the same as going to a brothel! Holy crap, are you like into that movie from the '80s where they banned dancing in some small town. What was that called again? "Footloose"?
> 
> I think we are overreacting a bit..wouldn't you say? :rofl: You act like these women are going out on the prowl looking to screw any man with something hanging between his legs when ALL they want to do is dance to Black Eyed Peas "I gotta a feeling", have a few glasses of wine, sing "Happy Birthday" to their friend and sleep in late. Sheesh.
> 
> I think you need a few drinks yourself. Lighten up.


My point about the OP was that they may have just wanted to kick this thread off the way it has played out. Just enough to get people speculating / assuming. They wanted to instigate. Maybe not. But they could have set the record straight. 

In the summertime when the weather is hot
You can stretch right up and touch the sky
When the weather's fine
You got women, you got women on your mind
Have a drink, have a drive
Go out and see what you can find

If her daddy's rich take her out for a meal
If her daddy's poor just do what you feel
Speed along the lane
Do a ton or a ton an' twenty-five
When the sun goes down
You can make it, make it good in a lay-by

We're no threat, people
We're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine
We go fishin' or go swimmin' in the sea
We're always happy
Life's for livin' yeah, that's our philosophy


----------



## Entropy3000

heartsbeating said:


> There's a Fantasy section...?


Not yet. I was projecting again.


----------



## Entropy3000

Freak On a Leash said:


> :smthumbup: Men without Hats!
> 
> _Ah we can dance if we want to, we can leave your friends behind
> Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
> Well they're are no friends of mine
> I say, we can go where we want to, A place where they will never find
> And we can act like we come from out of this world
> Leave the real one far behind,
> and we can dance
> 
> We can dance if we want to, we can leave your friends behind
> Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
> Well they're are no friends of mine
> I say, we can go where we want to a place where they will never find
> And we can act like we come from out of this world
> Leave the real one far behind
> and we can dance.
> 
> Francois!
> 
> Ah we can go when we want to the night is young and so am I
> And we can dress real neat from our hats to our feet
> and surprise 'em with the victory cry
> 
> I Say we can act if want to if we don't nobody will
> And you can act real rude and totally removed
> And i can act like an imbecile
> I say we can dance, we can dance everything out control
> We can dance, we can dance we're doing it wall to wall
> We can dance, we can dance everybody look at your hands
> We can dance, we can dance everybody takin' the chance
> Safety dance
> Oh well the safety dance
> Ah yes the safety dance_
> 
> :yay: :bounce:


"You Can Leave Your Hat On"

Baby, take off your coat, real slow.
Baby, take off your shoes. I'll help you take off your shoes.
Baby, take off your dress. Yes, yes, yes.

You can leave your hat on.
You can leave your hat on.
You can leave your hat on.

Go over there, turn on the light. No, all the lights.
Come back here, stand on the chair. Ooh, baby, that's right!
Raise your arms in the air, now shake 'em.

You give me reason to live.
You give me reason to live.
You give me reason to live.
You can leave your hat on!

Suspicious minds are talking. That's right, they'll tear us apart.
They don't believe in this love of ours.
They don't know what love is.
They don't know what love is.
I know what love is.
You can leave your hat on.
You can


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Entropy3000 said:


> My point about the OP was that they may have just wanted to kick this thread off the way it has played out. Just enough to get people speculating / assuming. They wanted to instigate. Maybe not. But they could have set the record straight.


Alright..what song is that? :scratchhead:

I've dealt with internet trolls. I think the OP is legit but has left the building. Happens a lot. Made for an interesting thread in any case.  And yes, I do wish there had been a follow up post telling us more details.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Freak On a Leash said:


> Do you know TRBE personally? :scratchhead:


Ha, no. He and I have been sparing if you will for quite a while. I came from CA and moved here to Houston. He lives in Dallas and we have often posted about Texas and culture shock if you will for me. 
Ent's actually a really good guy. I just love to bust his nuts and he loves to bust mine, erm, I mean tits. He can say some of the most prolific stuff and then come in with stupid sh!t but I love him anyways. I am sure he thinks I am rife with "stupid sh!t" as well.


----------



## Entropy3000

Freak On a Leash said:


> Ah HA! You have a problem with New Yawkers! I knew it!
> 
> Why don't youse come on here and say dat to my face, eh? :bringiton:
> 
> I'll show you.. TAKE THAT AND THAT!!!
> 
> :moon: :whip: :BoomSmilie_anim: :2gunsfiring_v1:


Are you talkin to me?

I am from the area.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Entropy3000 said:


> Are you talkin to me?
> 
> I am from the area.


You made a comment about the "New Yawk" culture earlier. 

No biggie. Everyone rags on New Jersey. I made up a slogan for this state..

New Jersey: We make everyone else look good. :rofl:


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Only in his mind. It involves sexy unicorns, big busted women who run around naked with only their hair covering their pert nipples and rainbows that fart platinum.
> 
> This entire thread is insane. If a woman had come here and said "men's night out debacle" it would have had a vastly different outcome including you are controlling, he wants to get away from you and the too famous....if you gave him sex he wouldn't want to hang out with his friends. Good grief and


Unicorns. Rainbows. What are you trying to say?

I have not been that way since I got out of the Navy.

Fart platinum? Ewwww. WTF?

You are talking about Take Me To Pleasure Town from Anchor Man.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Ent's actually a really good guy. I just love to bust his nuts and he loves to bust mine, erm, I mean tits. He can say some of the most prolific stuff and then come in with stupid sh!t but I love him anyways. I am sure he thinks I am rife with "stupid sh!t" as well.


It's cool. :smthumbup: I don't take this stuff personally. I like the give and take and joking around. 

Certainly has made my night more interesting and fun. 

IMO all this is the exchange of ideas and opinions. Ideas and opinions are like noses..everyone has one.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> Are you talkin to me?
> 
> I am from the area.


Area 51 doesn't count.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So your basis of how New Yorkers talk/act is from Tony Soprano, a guy who lived in NEW JERSEY? Have you ever met anybody from Tribeca, Park Slope or the Lower East Side?


I grew up in the area. The nuances are there up and down I95 and or the Garden state parkway.

I would have more to do with the Westies.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> Unicorns. Rainbows. What are you trying to say?
> 
> I have not been that way since I got out of the Navy.
> 
> Fart platinum? Ewwww. WTF?
> 
> You are talking about Take Me To Pleasure Town from Anchor Man.


So you WOULDN'T want a rainbow that farts Platinum? Do you know what it is selling for? Wait, I got it. You're a gold [email protected] aren'tcha? Smart man.


----------



## Entropy3000

Freak On a Leash said:


> Do you know TRBE personally? :scratchhead:


Everyone who lives in Texas knows each other. She is a right nice lady.

Ummm. No. This is just not our first rodeo ... I mean thread. She is an awesome lady and I really do respect her opinions. We do not usually agree but I am cool with that. She has good character. 

But there was a time when Trenton and TRBE were thought to be lovers. Hence the fantasy of them at the Galvez or wherever.

Oh and not to slight Trenton, she is quite the bright one as well. The two of them tag teaming us poor men is legendary.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> I grew in the area. The nuances are there up and down I95 and or the Garden state parkway.
> 
> I would have more to do with the Westies.


You grew up in NYC? Well smear my balls with sweet cream and stick me on a box of puppies. 
Westies? Are we talkin' those adorable Highland Terriers? 
You know I kid. You're awesome and I like the debates we have. You make for a great opponent, even if you never win. GNO you don't ever stand a chance.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Area 51 doesn't count.


You have no idea how close you are!!! Wow.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

It's funny, I've been going to clubs, seeing rock bands and whatnot for 30 years. I've never had any problems. When a guy hits on me I don't find it a problem to tell him that I'm married and not available. Maybe it's my overall demeanor or attitude but they get the message and leave me alone. 

But I will say that the best times I had was when my husband and I went together. It was nice...but it didn't last long.  

Unfortunately if I waited for my husband to accompany to events and activities I'd still be waiting. It's a problem that's been around since the beginning of our relationship. I've HAD to do stuff on my own and been encouraged to do so by my husband for the past 23 years. He told me a long time ago that he wasn't my social director and I should go entertain myself..so that's exactly what I've done. I do a lot of things on my own, from traveling to skiing to hiking, kayaking, to racing cars and 4 wheeling...

I don't go to bars and whatnot alone because it's just too depressing so I go with friends or meetup groups. Sometimes I go with him but only about half the time. 

I don't know if he doesn't care or doesn't worry or what his problem is. I think he's just relieved that I don't bug or nag him anymore to do stuff with me when I go off on my own and do what I want. 

I think it's sad but it's either that or sit around waiting on him or worse, be like my mother was with my father and nag and yell at him to do stuff with me. That doesn't work. What does work is to make friends and do things without him. 

I will agree though that if I had my way, we'd do things together. For a brief time we did but that didn't last and it was his choice, not mine.  So I do what I gotta do rather than dwell on it.

I have to say that I do envy all those couples who share interests and hobbies and enjoy being together. It seemed that every time my husband and I would share an interest or hobby he'd quit after awhile. I have grown to resent that and don't trust him. Three years ago I spent $3000 on kayaking equipment for him and now he doesn't like doing it anymore. That's just one of the things we've done together and he's abandoned. It gets old after awhile. 

After awhile it gets humiliating to beg someone for their attention and company. Better to go off and be alone or with friends.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Westies? Are we talkin' those adorable Highland Terriers?


Either that or the Irish American crime syndicate in the New York area.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You grew up in NYC? Well smear my balls with sweet cream and stick me on a box of puppies.
> Westies? Are we talkin' those adorable Highland Terriers?
> You know I kid. You're awesome and I like the debates we have. You make for a great opponent, even if you never win. GNO you don't ever stand a chance.


When the GNO topic comes out I just hang in there wondering when .... she will show up.

As you know, I love my wife dearly and she and I just flat do not have issues with this stuff. BUT, I am intrigued by the comments of others on the topic. What folks see as appropriate boundaries is fascinating to me. I do think boundaries are a very personal thing and there is not a one size fits all.


----------



## Entropy3000

Freak On a Leash said:


> Either that or the Irish American crime syndicate in the New York area.


The latter.

My family was mixed. Irish and Italians. I don;t think any of them were really connected but Uncle Lou? Idunno. Maybe.


----------



## Entropy3000

Ok so the GNO after party is about to begin.

Good night ladies. Be careful. Remember a lot of those guys really do think the world of you. You are the best that has ever happened to them.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Freak On a Leash said:


> It's funny, I've been going to clubs, seeing rock bands and whatnot for 30 years. I've never had any problems. When a guy hits on me I don't find it a problem to tell him that I'm married and not available. Maybe it's my overall demeanor or attitude but they get the message and leave me alone.
> 
> But I will say that the best times I had was when my husband and I went together. It was nice...but it didn't last long.
> 
> Unfortunately if I waited for my husband to accompany to events and activities I'd still be waiting. It's a problem that's been around since the beginning of our relationship. I've HAD to do stuff on my own and been encouraged to do so by my husband for the past 23 years. He told me a long time ago that he wasn't my social director and I should go entertain myself..so that's exactly what I've done. I do a lot of things on my own, from traveling to skiing to hiking, kayaking, to racing cars and 4 wheeling...
> 
> I don't go to bars and whatnot alone because it's just too depressing so I go with friends or meetup groups. Sometimes I go with him but only about half the time.
> 
> I don't know if he doesn't care or doesn't worry or what his problem is. I think he's just relieved that I don't bug or nag him anymore to do stuff with me when I go off on my own and do what I want.
> 
> I think it's sad but it's either that or sit around waiting on him or worse, be like my mother was with my father and nag and yell at him to do stuff with me. That doesn't work. What does work is to make friends and do things without him.
> 
> I will agree though that if I had my way, we'd do things together. For a brief time we did but that didn't last and it was his choice, not mine.  So I do what I gotta do rather than dwell on it.
> 
> I have to say that I do envy all those couples who share interests and hobbies and enjoy being together. It seemed that every time my husband and I would share an interest or hobby he'd quit after awhile. I have grown to resent that and don't trust him. Three years ago I spent $3000 on kayaking equipment for him and now he doesn't like doing it anymore. That's just one of the things we've done together and he's abandoned. It gets old after awhile.
> 
> After awhile it gets humiliating to beg someone for their attention and company. Better to go off and be alone or with friends.


Wedding cake made my husband suddenly hate to dance. Had no issue with it prior to marriage but after....not a chance. If he took me out dancing I would levitate but he doesn't/won't/couldn't care less so yes, I go out with my girlfriends TWICE A YEAR or so and dance but I'm a [email protected] afterall. 
Funny, wedding cake didn't make me stop wanting sex, the number one complaint of men and yet he is a once a week kind of guy. I SHOULD be out [email protected] but that's a whole other topic.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

I have many topics spread out in this forum and many problems with my marriage and husband but infidelity (fortunately) isn't one of them. It's not in my nature to stray and I trust that my husband hasn't. I can't imagine that he'd find anyone better than me anyway. :rofl:I'm not one to worry about such things. It's just not in my nature. If and when it should happen, I'll deal with it at that point. Until then....

...I'm content with my own company and keep myself amused and satisfied. 

Still, I would've liked to have gotten flowers for Valentines Day. 

Ah well..gotta go to work tomorrow. I enjoyed bantering with you all. Goodnight!


----------



## Freak On a Leash

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Wedding cake made my husband suddenly hate to dance. Had no issue with it prior to marriage but after....not a chance. If he took me out dancing I would levitate but he doesn't/won't/couldn't care less so yes, I go out with my girlfriends TWICE A YEAR or so and dance but I'm a [email protected] afterall.
> Funny, wedding cake didn't make me stop wanting sex, the number one complaint of men and yet he is a once a week kind of guy. I SHOULD be out [email protected] but that's a whole other topic.


For awhile I had both dancing and sex but now it's gone. Once a week? Heck, you got ME beat! :smthumbup: I guess everything is relative. 

Sounds like you, me and Trenton need to get together for some good ol' fashioned dancin', drinkin' and carousin' 

_If We Could Party All Night
And Sleep All Day
And Throw All Of My Problems Away
My Life Would Be Eaaasy
My Life Would Be Eaaasy
If We Could Party All Night
And Sleep All Day
And Throw All Of My Problems Away-Ay-Ay
Eaaaasy
My Life Would Be Eaaasy
Life Would Be Eaaasy
Party All The Time

If If We Could Party Party Party
Shake That Body Down
Ladies Don't Stop It
Shake It Round & Round
Feel That Bass Bumpin
And Rock To The Beat
This Beat Is Steady Bumpin
They Jumpin Off Their Feet
Check It Out
Ladies Got Their Hands in The Air
Shake It Like You Just Don't Care
Party It Down Like Yeah _ :smthumbup: :toast: :rofl:


----------



## valven

Greetings everyone, I'm a new member


----------



## CantBeJustMe

Freak On a Leash said:


> Either that or the Irish American crime syndicate in the New York area.


 I know this if off topic, but your post reminded me of something that happened years ago.

I was in the Army at the time, very single, and there was a new kid in my unit. It was a holiday time frame, most likely Thanksgiving. We had just got back from a pretty nasty deployment and he wanted a ride to go pick up his car in NY. He bribed me with gas money, beer money and promises of introductions to available women. LOL. I was curious after all, being a Southern boy who’s only trips were to countries where people didn’t speak a whole lot of English, many times being greeting by way of automatic weapons fire.

So off we go. Interesting road trip by itself, but we ended up in Long Island. Turns out we were picking up his car from his parent’s “Weekend Beach house”. All I know is, when I turned into the driveway, I thought we were still on a public road. The house looked like something out of “Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.” I immediately regretted my choice of attire (cut of BDU pants, tank top and flip flops – yes I had style sense even then). We were met at the door by their “Associate”. I ended up being pretty much forced, by his Mother and two sisters, in staying for dinner. 

Years later, when I first saw the Sopranos, I started laughing like I was on drugs. One of their family gatherings reminded me of that weekend.

When I asked the kid what his Dad did for a living, he just looked at me. He mumbled something about “Food service and vending stuff.” I never asked again.

Suitable attire was given to me to stay and eat, and it turns out that New York girls like Southern drawls and Southern boys with a smirk and not much tact. That was a memorable weekend.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

:smthumbup: Great story! I own a contracting business and a few of my customers are in the "sanitation" and "food service" business. I don't ask questions and always get paid in cash so it's all good.


----------



## CH

Freak On a Leash said:


> :smthumbup: Great story! I own a contracting business and a few of my customers are in the "sanitation" and "food service" business. I don't ask questions and always get paid in cash so it's all good.


So those huge garbage bags being thrown into the back of the Cadillac was just garbage right?


----------



## Entropy3000

Freak On a Leash said:


> :smthumbup: Great story! I own a contracting business and a few of my customers are in the "sanitation" and "food service" business. I don't ask questions and always get paid in cash so it's all good.


Some stuff falls off the truck. It is part of the deal.


----------



## Entropy3000

You have to have insurance.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

cheatinghubby said:


> So those huge garbage bags being thrown into the back of the Cadillac was just garbage right?


If it doesn't directly concern me I don't ask or get involved. It's pretty much my philosophy in general. 

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. It's just safer that way.


----------



## that_girl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Wedding cake made my husband suddenly hate to dance. Had no issue with it prior to marriage but after....not a chance. If he took me out dancing I would levitate but he doesn't/won't/couldn't care less so yes, I go out with my girlfriends TWICE A YEAR or so and dance but I'm a [email protected] afterall.
> Funny, wedding cake didn't make me stop wanting sex, the number one complaint of men and yet he is a once a week kind of guy. I SHOULD be out [email protected] but that's a whole other topic.


Maybe that's why nothing stopped after our wedding! We didn't have cake! :lol:


----------



## bab1957

I had this happen to me, sort of over two years ago. I had a male friend who wanted to take me to see the symphony. My H had an absolute full blown fit. Said that if anyone was taking me anywere, cultural events included, it would be him. That he was the one who should be buying the tickets, not my friend. That I would NOT be going out on a "date" with my friend.
Well, I have been waiting ever since for my H to take me to said cultural events, such as the symphony but still nothing. During the holiday season, our city had lots of wonderful seasonal programs. Did we see any of them? Nope. 
My mother was the one who took me to see Porgy and Bess. Wonderful production by the way. She has even asked if I wanted to go to see the Opera. I had to decline, cause Opera is not my thing, even tho I do like some of the music.
Point is, if he didn't have anything to worry about.


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## morituri

My fiancee can do whatever she wants, she's not my slave. BUT I'm more than willing and able to end my relationship with her if *she chooses* to cheat on me. I have zero tolerance for cheating and she knows this.

I'm no stranger when it comes to marriages ending (first wife died of cancer, second wife I divorced due to her cheating) so I know for a fact that after a period of grieving a dead relationship I'll be fine.


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## Freak On a Leash

bab1957 said:


> I had this happen to me, sort of over two years ago. I had a male friend who wanted to take me to see the symphony. My H had an absolute full blown fit. Said that if anyone was taking me anywhere, cultural events included, it would be him. That he was the one who should be buying the tickets, not my friend. That I would NOT be going out on a "date" with my friend.
> Well, I have been waiting ever since for my H to take me to said cultural events, such as the symphony but still nothing. During the holiday season, our city had lots of wonderful seasonal programs. Did we see any of them? Nope.
> My mother was the one who took me to see Porgy and Bess. Wonderful production by the way. She has even asked if I wanted to go to see the Opera. I had to decline, cause Opera is not my thing, even tho I do like some of the music.
> Point is, if he didn't have anything to worry about.


Have you asked your husband to go out to these cultural events? He turned you down? If I want to do something with my husband most of the time I'm the one who brings it up. He likes to stay home and hang out most of the time although at times he will bring up something to do, but he's pretty narrow in his interests. 

Going out one-on-one with a male friend could be an entire thread in itself. It's one thing to have a GNO but to out alone with a male friend? Hmmmm....I can see why this would bother a LOT of men. Would it bother you for your husband to go out with a female buddy alone?

As for me, you husband wouldn't get far. I've always had male buds. My husband was once my best friend! Throughout the years I've done a lot of stuff one-on-one with my male friends. Sometimes it's looked downright inappropriate...Like the time I went camping with an old boyfriend (who was a mutual friend with my husband too) when I went on a trip Colorado and lied about the fact that it was just the two of us. BAD idea! Do NOT do this!!

I was like you in that my husband wouldn't go camping with me and I missed doing this so we planned camping out in conjunction with a trip to Pikes Peak. I guess a part of me knew my husband wouldn't like it being just him and I so I said my boyfriend's brother was there too. When my husband found it it was just the two of us it wasn't pretty. 

This ranked as one of the most stupid things I've ever done in the course of my marriage.  I did that back when I wasn't thinking straight and had my own issues. Nothing happened between my ex boyfriend and I but it was NOT the right thing to do.  Do NOT LIE TO YOUR SPOUSE! EVER!! 

However, aside from that I've gone to all sorts of events and activities with male friends over the years, way too many to list here. Usually it's been in combination with a group activity, like last week when I met my male friend for breakfast and we drove to a kayaking group event together. A lot of men would have a problem even with that. Plus I have often gone out for a meal or a kayaking trip with this friend. My husband knows and likes him so that's a big help. 

I have NEVER cheated on my husband but you do have to stop and think about how something is going to look or make your husband (or wife) feel even if they say "sure, go ahead." If you have the jealous/possessive type of husband then it's not going to work. My husband isn't like that but all men have it somewhere deep inside..just as all women do. So you need to tread carefully. 

I tend to think it's something you REALLY need to discuss with your spouse and respect his/her wishes because there's a lot of potential problems here that can happen.

Fortunately my husband and I have arrived in a place where we don't worry about where the other is going with whom or why but I think it's a small minority of married couples that have that sort of arrangement and deal with it comfortably. Plus, it probably helps that we are living separately. 

I don't think I could personally date or marry a man who had a problem with me hanging out with my men friends but that's something I'd be open and honest with from the get-go and he's have to accept or walk away from the relationship so it's probably a good thing that I'm with my husband. There's a lot of stuff about me that's like that. 

As for my husband and I. He just can't fulfill all my social needs and he knows it. We used to fight about him being "boring" and a "homebody" all the time and even when we seemed to be on the same page and were going out a lot as a couple he later told me that he felt "pressured" by me to go out as often as we did. I don't like to be made to feel guilty about having a good time and I grew annoyed and resentful at him about this. 

Then I started in about him not wanting to do the same stuff as I did. He never will. He just doesn't have the same energy level and interests that I do so we were pretty much at a standstill for a long time. It was a real point of contention and a problem but we eventually came to the conclusion that in order to stay married we'd have to loosen our grip on each other and let one another pretty much pursue our interests and social activities as we needed to without guilt or fighting. 

Now I just go and make my plans and do what I want and so does he. Without guilt, without a hassle. We work together when it comes to our son about who is going to make themselves available should one of us take a trip out of town. It's been a real work in progress and it wasn't easy to arrive at this point. 

However, it's one of the benefits of our "new" relationship of married but living separately. I like it A LOT but it's definitely not for everyone and it didn't happen overnight. I'd venture to say most married couple wouldn't go for it.


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## Freak On a Leash

morituri said:


> My fiancee can do whatever she wants, she's not my slave. BUT I'm more than willing and able to end my relationship with her if *she chooses* to cheat on me. I have zero tolerance for cheating and she knows this..


This is how I am. You cheat and we are done. Despite all the crap over the years I've never cheated on my husband. I've never even met anyone I've WANTED to cheat with! 

I don't know if he believes this but I don't think he's cheated either. He certainly COULD if he wanted to. I choose not to worry about it but if he does and I find out then we're done as a couple because I can forgive a lot but not that. Then there's no reason to be married as far as I'm concerned.


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## morituri

Freak On a Leash said:


> *I've never even met anyone I've WANTED to cheat with! *
> 
> ...but if he does and I find out then we're done as a couple because I can forgive a lot but not that. Then there's no reason to be married as far as I'm concerned.


But if you did, you wouldn't beg your husband to give you a second chance, would you? I certainly wouldn't beg my fiancee for one, I'd know I'd not be worthy of one.


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## Freak On a Leash

morituri said:


> But if you did, you wouldn't beg your husband to give you a second chance, would you? I certainly wouldn't beg my fiancee for one, I'd know I'd not be worthy of one.


No. If I cheat then the marriage is done. If I cheated then I've gone to that place that I can't come back from. It's over. Because it's truly the point of no return. 

My husband and I have discussed this many times and we both feel the same way. Infidelity is the proverbial line in the sand. 

I don't think many realize this or don't want to deal with it but IMO that's what separates MARRIAGE from everything else. You pledge yourself to that person and you DO NOT STRAY.

Or you leave. But at least you keep your honor and dignity.


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## morituri

Freak On a Leash said:


> I don't think many realize this or don't want to deal with it but IMO that's what separates MARRIAGE from everything else. You pledge yourself to that person and you DO NOT STRAY.
> 
> *Or you leave. But at least you keep your honor and dignity.*


I couldn't agree more. And once you start meeting others, you can hold your head high when the question is asked "Did you ever cheat on any of your exs?"


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## Tall Average Guy

Freak On a Leash said:


> However, it's one of the benefits of our "new" relationship of married but living separately. I like it A LOT but it's definitely not for everyone and it didn't happen overnight. I'd venture to say most married couple wouldn't go for it.


I agree with this. I respect the agreement that you have with your husband and am glad it works for the two of you. 

Personally, this would not work for me. To me, what you describe is too much like dating other men, which is a line for me. I want to be clear that I am not saying you are, but one on one get togethers with a member of the opposite sex more than about once a year is just too close to that line for me or my wife. It is not about trust or cheating or anything - to us, the only person we can date is each other.

I will add that when you are married, you need to think about each other and what works for the two of you. While I could not work in the type of marriage that Freak has, I admire that she and her husband have talked it out and figured out an arrangement that works for the two of them. To me, that process, and not any particular end result, should be the goal of a marriage.


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## Freak On a Leash

I don't think many people could accept or want the type of marriage I have. It's rather unorthodox but it works for us because my husband and I are indeed cut from the same clothe in many ways. I think that's why we ARE together. In many ways, we are indeed "soulmates".

I seriously don't think I COULD be in a "conventional" marriage. I've come to the conclusion that I'm not "marriage material". Just by the way I've acted and reacted over the years and where I've wound up. 

My husband CAN NOT give me all that I want and need out of life nor does he want to. I can't do the same for him. It's been a BIG problem for us over the years. So we can either tear each other up about it, or go our separate ways or change things to suit our individual needs. So we've gone with what we have now and I can honestly say that it's working for us and hopefully will continue to do so. 

All I know is that I right now I'm happier than I've been in years. For most of my marriage I was thinking of ways to get out of it. Now it's working for me. For most though, it would be unacceptable and unworkable and not much of a marriage. 

So I'm a definite minority.


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## Freak On a Leash

morituri said:


> I couldn't agree more. And once you start meeting others, you can hold your head high when the question is asked "Did you ever cheat on any of your exs?"


Well, right now I have no plans to have an EX but I can sleep well at night knowing I've acted in a dignified and honorable manner. That's what I've always told my kids. "In the end, you need to live with yourself so always do right by yourself."


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## bab1957

This comes from an H who gets all bent and pouty when I want to go out with a gal pal for a cup of coffee, or go out for dinner/drink with said gal pal, or even going to see my best friend who I have known for over 30 years up state. I only see her maybe once or twice a year because its such a long trip up.
So, I see it as dealing with an H who is insecure even after 26 years of marriage.
I don't even get together here with my friend very often.
It makes for a lonely existance. 
Because my H has been out of work for over 4 years, he is at home just about ALL the time. We are together just about ALL the time. But that doesn't mean we have to be joined at the hip. 
When my mom was still married, she had a friend down the street who had a friends from out of town visiting. The wife asked my mom if she would take her husband with her to the opera. And she did. No big deal. A total stranger.
But then again, my mom had a miserable marriage to my dad. She lived her life the way she wanted.


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## I Know

bab1957 said:


> This comes from an H who gets all bent and pouty when I want to go out with a gal pal for a cup of coffee, or go out for dinner/drink with said gal pal, or even going to see my best friend who I have known for over 30 years up state. I only see her maybe once or twice a year because its such a long trip up.
> So, I see it as dealing with an H who is insecure even after 26 years of marriage.
> .


Well u have to address his concerns. He has the concerns and you cannot just wish them away w/out damaging the relationship. Can't your gal pal come to see you, so your H can keep his eye on you?


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## Freak On a Leash

bab1957 said:


> This comes from an H who gets all bent and pouty when I want to go out with a gal pal for a cup of coffee, or go out for dinner/drink with said gal pal, or even going to see my best friend who I have known for over 30 years up state. I only see her maybe once or twice a year because its such a long trip up.
> So, I see it as dealing with an H who is insecure even after 26 years of marriage.
> I don't even get together here with my friend very often.
> It makes for a lonely existance.
> Because my H has been out of work for over 4 years, he is at home just about ALL the time. We are together just about ALL the time. But that doesn't mean we have to be joined at the hip.


I would go completely insane with this. :slap: Do you put up with this? Do you stay home rather than go out? Going out with a girlfriend for a CUP OF COFFEE isn't the same as having an affair! Your husband obviously has some serious emotional issues and he needs to deal with that because it's obviously impacting your life in a very negative way. Is that fair?


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## Goldmember357

So much fail in this thread lol! 

people


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## memyselfandi

Good Lord..a girls night out is just a girl's night out! Most of the time we're all too busy talking girl talk for most guys to even take the time with us. Granted, they might come up to us and have a little flirtatious fun..but we're going home to our hubbies...(who we tend to miss a lot more when we're out with the girls and talk about all night long..), so what's the big deal??

I get home after these stupid nights out and tell my hubby all about it..as we laugh. It's all stupid fun.

My question is: OK....so guys go hunting. Can't tell me that somewhere in that hunting they don't go to tittie bars as they yell and scream for some skank to take it all off..while still thinking about their wives.

I myself think it's kinda gross as my hubby and I laugh about it when he comes home from hunting. "Yeah yeah..I know you guys all went to the tittie bar...wooooo!!" He just tells me that it's a guy thing...he goes along with it..they all get wasted..and feel like **** in the morning while he can't wait to get home to me.

Works for me...and for us.


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## MrK

OP hasn't posted since about page 4. Can you say "off on a tangent..."?


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## bab1957

My H only said those things about him buying the tickets out of jelousy, not because he actually wanted to go. If he really was interested in going to the symphony for example( and there are adds on the tv for upcomming events all the time) He would bring it up to me. He was just being a jughead.
I know, why does my H have to keep an eye on me? Thats a real oh wow! statement. Im not his property. 
I brought up the GNO quite a while back myself either in these forums or another forum, can't remember:scratchhead: But the responses were just about the same. 
My H does not have any close buds to hang out with. I don't think a spouse should be the everything in your life. Its not good.


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## Fred Gray

vaflower said:


> Need some honest opinions here...
> 
> 
> My best friends birthday is coming up and I wanted to get a bunch of girls together, have dinner, some drinks, go dancing and just hang out. We were planning to make it an over nighter and the next morning get up late, do the brunch thing and return to our lives.
> The reason we never go out... because the guys throw a fit EVERY time. My questions are this...
> Why are men so threatened with a girls night out?
> Whats with the double standard?
> Is this something everyone runs into or is it just us?


Suppose the Husbands said that they wanted to go out to dinner and have some drinks, then go dancing, and just hang out all night and come home the next afternoon. I do not know one wife that would tolerate this. A bunch of guy going off fishing or to a ballgame without women, is NOT the same as what you described. If it's okay for you to do it, then its okay for them to do it. How would you feel?


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## Confused Husband 50

This is a topical thread for me. I accepted a job out of town that led to my wife and I being separated for a significant amout of time. About six months after I moved she started going out to clubs (infrequently) with a divorced/single female friend (that I did not know but she met through work after I moved). Although I've known for years that my wife liked to go out dancing I was remiss in asking her to do so prior to the move. When I was back in town one weekend I went out with my wife and her single friend to the clubs and the single friend was engaging in inappropriate behavior with a married male. After that, my wife went clubbing/dancing multiple weekends, and several weekends later my wife was out both Friday and Saturday night till around 3AM and that sort of set me off. I recently asked her not to go out without me and she was offended (for which I feel bad). For the females here, am I completely out of line (sort of feels like it)?


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## COguy

Confused Husband 50 said:


> This is a topical thread for me. I accepted a job out of town that led to my wife and I being separated for a significant amout of time. About six months after I moved she started going out to clubs (infrequently) with a divorced/single female friend (that I did not know but she met through work after I moved). Although I've known for years that my wife liked to go out dancing I was remiss in asking her to do so prior to the move. When I was back in town one weekend I went out with my wife and her single friend to the clubs and the single friend was engaging in inappropriate behavior with a married male. After that, my wife went clubbing/dancing multiple weekends, and several weekends later my wife was out both Friday and Saturday night till around 3AM and that sort of set me off. I recently asked her not to go out without me and she was offended (for which I feel bad). For the females here, am I completely out of line (sort of feels like it)?


You're completely out of line for allowing it go on so long. What do you think she's doing out so late at the club? She's not praying with the other guys...


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## MrK

Confused Husband 50 said:


> When I was back in town one weekend I went out with my wife and her single friend to the clubs and the single friend was engaging in inappropriate behavior with a married male. After that, my wife went clubbing/dancing multiple weekends, and several weekends later my wife was out both Friday and Saturday night till around 3AM and that sort of set me off.


So how many times exactly did she go out with this toxic friend since you witnessed that behavior? Because that is how much your wife engaged in inappropriate behavior with strange men. There is no way your wife sites around saving the table while her friend is out w.h.o.r.i.n.g.


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## Confused Husband 50

MrK said:


> So how many times exactly did she go out with this toxic friend since you witnessed that behavior? Because that is how much your wife engaged in inappropriate behavior with strange men. There is no way your wife sites around saving the table while her friend is out w.h.o.r.i.n.g.


Couple times. I don't assume that because her single friend does something that my wife follows suit but am not comfortable with the situation. I'd guess they went out 8 times total over a 3 month period, often with a larger group of women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ryan_sa

I dont think one can say because 1 woman goes to bars to get laid, then all women are out there to do the same

I hate nightclubs, I dont like dancing but my wife loves it. About 3 times a year her and a couple of girlfriends go for a girls night. They get home early in the morning, or sometimes if noone is safe to drive I'll collect them.
I know there is a risk of some guy getting lucky (the last time a guy slipped someting into one of their drinks, but got caught) but I trust my wife, shes never given me a reason not to, and I dont think I could have another relationship without trust.


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## sundown1965

about two years ago my wife and three married girlfriends went on an out of town girls getaway. they are all early forties and very attractive ladies.
yes they did the spa, shopping thing, but they also went to clubs at night.
my wife said they did not drink much and just visited and people watched.
she did say that the second night a group of about six guys late twenties/early thirties came in and one had on a "grrom to be" T-shirt.
she said that one of her friends(the ringleader) was teasing the groom a little.
this was a very packed hotspot by the way..
she said none of the other girls had any contact with them.
I think she admitted that much in case it ever came up in conversation with our friends.
Even though I was uncomfortable, i didn't make waves,
So a few days after she gets home she asks me to dowload the pictures of the trip and put them all on a dik for her friends.
She did not know that I have software to recover deleted pictures from a memory stick.

there were several pictures of the girls at this club dressed very sexy, low cut shirts, tons of makeup etc.

In these deleted pictures the girls were intoxicated with shot glasses all over the table. several pictures of these guys at the table with them, hugging for the snapshot, and some of the girls dancing with these guys, some dirty dancing, 
yes they seemed to be laughing and having fun, but is that appropriate??
when I confronted my wife she said that the ringleader invited them over and she felt she had to go along...and not be rude.

she usually would call me when they got back to their room to tell me goodnight, that night I just got a text at 11:00 saying they were back and going to bed. the date time stamp on the deleted pictures went till almost 2:00 AM

Do I think they all got laid?? no, But seeking attention from other men for an ego boost and to prove to yourself that you still "got It" is wrong.
Trust is a terrible thing to waste for an ego boost.


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## Conrad

One of the more annoying aspects of this ongoing discussion is the unwillingness of "many" to admit the competitive aspect of women when it comes to seeking attention.

You don't go there looking for trouble. It all seems so innocent and "harmless" and "fun".

Then, one of the ringleaders pushes the envelope and your alcohol drenched subconscious gets the competitive juice flowing. You don't want to seem like a "prude" or a stick in the mud. All of a sudden, you're in a car with some alpha PUA headed who knows where.

This happens ALL THE TIME.

And, the chorus of, "He should trust me" rings in the background.

We're talking biology folks.


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## COguy

sundown1965 said:


> about two years ago my wife and three married girlfriends went on an out of town girls getaway. they are all early forties and very attractive ladies.
> yes they did the spa, shopping thing, but they also went to clubs at night.
> my wife said they did not drink much and just visited and people watched.
> she did say that the second night a group of about six guys late twenties/early thirties came in and one had on a "grrom to be" T-shirt.
> she said that one of her friends(the ringleader) was teasing the groom a little.
> this was a very packed hotspot by the way..
> she said none of the other girls had any contact with them.
> I think she admitted that much in case it ever came up in conversation with our friends.
> Even though I was uncomfortable, i didn't make waves,
> So a few days after she gets home she asks me to dowload the pictures of the trip and put them all on a dik for her friends.
> She did not know that I have software to recover deleted pictures from a memory stick.
> 
> there were several pictures of the girls at this club dressed very sexy, low cut shirts, tons of makeup etc.
> 
> In these deleted pictures the girls were intoxicated with shot glasses all over the table. several pictures of these guys at the table with them, hugging for the snapshot, and some of the girls dancing with these guys, some dirty dancing,
> yes they seemed to be laughing and having fun, but is that appropriate??
> when I confronted my wife she said that the ringleader invited them over and she felt she had to go along...and not be rude.
> 
> she usually would call me when they got back to their room to tell me goodnight, that night I just got a text at 11:00 saying they were back and going to bed. the date time stamp on the deleted pictures went till almost 2:00 AM
> 
> Do I think they all got laid?? no, But seeking attention from other men for an ego boost and to prove to yourself that you still "got It" is wrong.
> Trust is a terrible thing to waste for an ego boost.



Your post is the reason that this is just flat out dumb behavior from girls.

Had you not seen the deleted pictures yourself, you would have assumed everything was kosher. A lesser man wouldn't have questioned it at all.

I don't trust any girl that hangs out TO DANCE at a club of single men until 2 in the morning. It's been said a million times before but I'll say it again.

If you want to dance, go to dancing lessons.

If you want to have a few drinks with your friends, go to a restaurant or wine bar.

You want to socialize, go to a friends house and play board games.

If you want to go to a club because you like dirty dancing and getting drunk and loud music, then bring your spouse.

You can people watch at a mall, or airport, or park. You go to a club/bar at midnight with girls only to do one thing: flirt, get hit on, dance with guys, and other inappropriate activities.

When I hear a married woman try to justify it, I am reminded of a time when men held business meetings in a "gentleman's club". They weren't going to see the t&a, they needed a relaxed atmosphere to "conduct business."


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## sundown1965

COguy said:


> Your post is the reason that this is just flat out dumb behavior from girls.
> 
> Had you not seen the deleted pictures yourself, you would have assumed everything was kosher. A lesser man wouldn't have questioned it at all.
> 
> I don't trust any girl that hangs out TO DANCE at a club of single men until 2 in the morning. It's been said a million times before but I'll say it again.
> 
> If you want to dance, go to dancing lessons.
> 
> If you want to have a few drinks with your friends, go to a restaurant or wine bar.
> 
> You want to socialize, go to a friends house and play board games.
> 
> If you want to go to a club because you like dirty dancing and getting drunk and loud music, then bring your spouse.
> 
> You can people watch at a mall, or airport, or park. You go to a club/bar at midnight with girls only to do one thing: flirt, get hit on, dance with guys, and other inappropriate activities.
> 
> When I hear a married woman try to justify it, I am reminded of a time when men held business meetings in a "gentleman's club". They weren't going to see the t&a, they needed a relaxed atmosphere to "conduct business."


you are absolutly right, I am amazed at how defensive women are on this topic,Men are happy so sit in a sports bar have a few beers and visit while watching sports.
why do married women feel the need for this gno at a singles club??? 
Needing/wanting to be in that invironment is a major red flag, needing/wanting attention from other men is a form of cheating.
once I saw the pictures and confronted my wife she got all defensive and said they were just having fun and did nothing wrong...
again I belive the ringleader was the instigator, and I truly don't believe any one took a guy back to their room, but it was WRONG...anything you do that you have to delete pictures and lie to your spouse is WRONG..
Why do so many married women like to put themselves in these situations?? and how in the world can they really try to justify it???


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## COguy

sundown1965 said:


> Why do so many married women like to put themselves in these situations?? and how in the world can they really try to justify it???


Because it takes moral character, self-realization, and wisdom, to admit that you're acting selfishly and your behavior is wrong.

There is a scientific phenomenon called cognitive dissonance. Your brain can not hold two contradictory beliefs at one time. A woman can not be a "good girl" and be a sl*t at the same time. So a person who believes themself to be of high moral character can not admit that they are acting inappropriately. They must justify/rationalize the behavior to make it ok.

It's a biological instinct. It takes a certain type of person to repress that brain function and say, "You're right, I'm acting like a selfish, dishonest person when I do x,y,z." It's much easier to come up with some BS reason on why it's ok and how everyone else is wrong for judging you.

It's also why cheater's never admit they are cheating or lying.

It's why people get defensive when they are caught, their brain is about to experience serious conflict trying to resolve the incompatible idealogies.

Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Lon

but FrenchFry, we already established on another thread that you aren't going to meat markets, you are going to live music venues and for valid reasons - the places you go may have some wannbe PUA's but they are not basically just being run as a place that profits merely by encouraging lewd behavior of its patrons.


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## COguy

FrenchFry said:


> Nope, I just like music my husband doesn't. Can yell about biology and whatever all you want, call me of low character, selfish, whatever. Everyone's situation is different, my husband doesn't even have to 'just trust me,' he knows.
> 
> I guess it really is hard for some people to accept that other's personal boundaries are different.


If your personal boundaries include staying out to close sans husband while getting drunk around single men who are hitting on you, then I would say your personal boundaries suck.

You can listen to music at home.


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## Conrad

Lon said:


> but FrenchFry, we already established on another thread that you aren't going to meat markets, you are going to live music venues and for valid reasons - the places you go may have some wannbe PUA's but they are not basically just being run as a place that profits merely by encouraging lewd behavior of its patrons.


I wonder if there's something in the subconscious that's tempting to make something that "isn't about you" about you?


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## COguy

FrenchFry said:


> Right, but as evidenced by the post above mine, I'm just making excuses to dance on dudes and get hit on (no matter that I get hit on all the time and I manage to keep my pants on) and exercise my poor personal boundaries. It's tiring trying to justify what really doesn't need to be justified but it really sucks to be told over and over how must be lying/do disservice to my husband/whatever because I happen to actually be legitimate in my musical desires
> 
> . I'm just trying to stand up for the people who actually do the same thing I do, I guess.


I like wings. That's why I go to Hooters...without my wife...late at night.

I just want to stick up for all the other guys at Hooters who are being judged because they like wings.

Please...

I'll buy you an iPod and load it with your favorite bands and you can listen to it at church instead of in a crowded bar at 2am.


----------



## lovelygirl

COguy said:


> If your personal boundaries include staying out to close sans husband while getting drunk around single men who are hitting on you, then I would say your personal boundaries suck.
> 
> You can listen to music at home.


Listening to music at home it's no the same as listening to it in a night club.

But I agree with you when it comes to bounderies.


----------



## COguy

lovelygirl said:


> Listening to music at home it's no the same as listening to it in a night club.
> 
> But I agree with you when it comes to bounderies.


Right, cause there's not a flock of drunk horny guys validating self-esteem issues at home.

As Trenton said, if she's the exception, then she's just that, an exception.


----------



## COguy

Trenton said:


> I wonder though...is it OK to look at porn?
> 
> Hooters may be a public proclamation of some sort that you like boobs but what message does porn send the wife?


I don't think porn is ok, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.


----------



## Entropy3000

sundown1965 said:


> about two years ago my wife and three married girlfriends went on an out of town girls getaway. they are all early forties and very attractive ladies.
> yes they did the spa, shopping thing, but they also went to clubs at night.
> my wife said they did not drink much and just visited and people watched.
> she did say that the second night a group of about six guys late twenties/early thirties came in and one had on a "grrom to be" T-shirt.
> she said that one of her friends(the ringleader) was teasing the groom a little.
> this was a very packed hotspot by the way..
> she said none of the other girls had any contact with them.
> I think she admitted that much in case it ever came up in conversation with our friends.
> Even though I was uncomfortable, i didn't make waves,
> So a few days after she gets home she asks me to dowload the pictures of the trip and put them all on a dik for her friends.
> She did not know that I have software to recover deleted pictures from a memory stick.
> 
> there were several pictures of the girls at this club dressed very sexy, low cut shirts, tons of makeup etc.
> 
> In these deleted pictures the girls were intoxicated with shot glasses all over the table. several pictures of these guys at the table with them, hugging for the snapshot, and some of the girls dancing with these guys, some dirty dancing,
> yes they seemed to be laughing and having fun, but is that appropriate??
> when I confronted my wife she said that the ringleader invited them over and she felt she had to go along...and not be rude.
> 
> she usually would call me when they got back to their room to tell me goodnight, that night I just got a text at 11:00 saying they were back and going to bed. the date time stamp on the deleted pictures went till almost 2:00 AM
> 
> Do I think they all got laid?? no, But seeking attention from other men for an ego boost and to prove to yourself that you still "got It" is wrong.
> Trust is a terrible thing to waste for an ego boost.


Forget about anyone getting laid. What do we know from this?

Inappropirate Behavior -- check

Unfaithful Behavior -- check

- Lying
- Secrecy
- Covering up activities, deleting pictures she knew were evidence of her unfaithfulness.

Cheating -- Depends how you define cheating. Since there was so much lying who knows? Does it matter?

But this was definitley playing / grinding / groping with other men. No doubt the attention is a rush. Even the feeling of naughtiness in dressing sexy by showing skin and having contact. Probably sans undergarments for the bolder ladies. Just a bit of fun. 

All I am saying is that this was unfaithful behavior. Now whether ot not you know the limit of the unfaithfulness is a matter of conjecture. But you do know there was lying to you and covering up what really went on / goes on. You go girl. 

So trust is validated? Ummmm. No.

Did any of the ladies engage in some kind of activity their husbands would have been upset about. No doubt. Did any engage in activities that would have broken their vows. I think very possibly. How many? They will never tell. The overnight hotel covers many infidelities ....


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> I'm saying, where does what we think cross over to what we do and finally cross over to being a betrayal to the one we love? Is it defined by us? Defined by our lover? Society?
> 
> *Do you reason that it's OK to think it as long as you don't take action on it?*


Thinking a woman has a fine looking behind is not in the same realm as caressing it with your hands. No moral equivalence to these.

Wanting to smack someone in the face is not as bad as actually doing it.

Not sure where you are going with this. Are we equating men's use of porn and women playing with the guys at da club?

My wife and I have an official boundary of look but do not touch. This does not mean I go out of my way to look. We do not have to take our actions to the warning track up against the proverbial wall. 

But the betrayal in much of this is not even the lust of the heart. It is the disrespect and unfaithfulness of the choices made. IMHO.

The problem with the thought process is that thoughts can become affirmations. Meaning thoughts can become actions if we are not careful.


----------



## morituri

Betrayal occurs when you engage in any activity that potentially hurts your spouse, and you don't care. And yes porn can be such an activity.


----------



## heartsbeating

FrenchFry said:


> I think I'm the exception on this board, for sure. The rest of my dnb chicks are too busy getting their hustle on for some more tickets than to be arguing on a marriage board. :smthumbup:


There's loads of music threads in the Social Spot...it would be great if you headed over there some time with your dnb addiction


----------



## sundown1965

Entropy3000 said:


> Forget about anyone getting laid. What do we know from this?
> 
> Inappropirate Behavior -- check
> 
> Unfaithful Behavior -- check
> 
> - Lying
> - Secrecy
> - Covering up activities, deleting pictures she knew were evidence of her unfaithfulness.
> 
> Cheating -- Depends how you define cheating. Since there was so much lying who knows? Does it matter?
> 
> But this was definitley playing / grinding / groping with other men. No doubt the attention is a rush. Even the feeling of naughtiness in dressing sexy by showing skin and having contact. Probably sans undergarments for the bolder ladies. Just a bit of fun.
> 
> All I am saying is that this was unfaithful behavior. Now whether ot not you know the limit of the unfaithfulness is a matter of conjecture. But you do know there was lying to you and covering up what really went on / goes on. You go girl.
> 
> So trust is validated? Ummmm. No.
> 
> Did any of the ladies engage in some kind of activity their husbands would have been upset about. No doubt. Did any engage in activities that would have broken their vows. I think very possibly. How many? They will never tell. The overnight hotel covers many infidelities ....


while i truly believe i know my wife and her friends better than to think anyone got laid I believe it was deffinatly a level of unfaithfullness on their parts.
The troubling and amazing part to me was the way my wife was able to come home and lie to my face without giving any thought to it..I actually asked her before I found the pictures specific questions about that night and what interaction they had with those men. and she point by point lied without any problems...when cought she said she lied because she knew I would not believe they did nothing wrong ..
some kind of girl code allows them to think they are entitled to this type of behavior...
I believe this type of gno is very common with married ladies,and most husbands never find out.
I just happen to recover deleted pictures....


----------



## Entropy3000

You are a more forgiving person than I for sure. That probably would have been a dealbreaker for me. It would have proved that I could not trust my wife.

It would make you wonder if you just happened to come upon these pictures and that this was the one and only time in the marriage there was unfaithfulness. A miracle. Life is usually a little more hit and miss.

The pictures were not as bad as the hiding and lying about them. Why hide them? Why indeed? Was there more to this?


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> Really? Would your wife not be as hurt by the idea that you want to have sex with someone else? Isn't pretending that it wouldn't hurt her or that you can't control it just more cognitive reasoning? I mean where do we draw the line between right and wrong when the reality is so many of us are wrong so much of the time.


I think we draw the line at unfaithful behavior.

Caressing a woman's behind is cheating in my marriage. Admiring a woman's behind is not the same. Honestly. Actually rubbing your hands on her behind would be unfaithful. Just like a man grinding his erection into you would be unfaithful at a dance club. Him just thinking about grinding into you would not be the same thing as him actually doing it.

So I see where you are going. If a woman even thinks about dancing at one of these clubs with another guy and grinding on him and taking him up to her room and banging him all night long as she texts her hubby this is not ok. She might as well actually do this? The thought is the same as the action. Seriously? 

Wow this is like the movie forbidden planet where the Krell's thoughts were manifested for them in reality. Of course they were destroyed by monsters from the ID.

Anyway, while I do think romance novels ( female porn ), are silly I do not think that a woman reading this is the same as her banging some real guy.

I never said I wanted to have sex with any other woman in the world. I don't. But I can admire a woman with a fine looking behind just like those construction workers do where you work ......


----------



## COguy

Trenton said:


> I'm saying, where does what we think cross over to what we do and finally cross over to being a betrayal to the one we love? Is it defined by us? Defined by our lover? Society?
> 
> Do you reason that it's OK to think it as long as you don't take action on it?


I'm not sure if you're asking generally or me specifically.

My personal take is, no it's not OK to think about other women. Do I do it from time to time, yes, I'm not perfect. That is defined by me. If I was ok with it, and my wife was ok with it, then fine, no biggy.

My problem with the GNO is not even with the intentions, it's with the danger of it.

There is a clear difference between fantasizing about a woman while you're in the shower, and fantasizing about a woman at a brothel. If I think about a woman in my head, it's never going to be more than a bad thought. But if I end up in a brothel, and make a bad judgement call, I can end up doing some pretty stupid things.

When we want to lose weight, we go through our pantries and clear out the junk food. Why? Because we know if we have a moment of weakness, we won't gorge on snickers bars. If you hang out in the candy aisle long enough, it only takes one moment of weakness to end up in a bad situation.

So to me, the situations we put ourselves in are of similar importance to our intentions. Going to a club, alone, late at night, especially if drinking, is a bad situation. It takes ACTIVE boundaries and strength to stay faithful. The atmosphere makes it very easy to blend the lines of what is appropriate in a marriage. So why would you put yourself in a situation where you have to rely on your relationship being great, and your willpower being high, to stay faithful? Why not just remove yourself from the potentially dangerous situation all together?

I trust the woman who is not happy with her current marriage but is going to the grocery store more than I trust the "I love my husband" woman who is going to the club with her BFFs.


----------



## Entropy3000

IMO a married person who hangs out in these types of places until closing is sending the message to others that they are potentially avaiable if you can seduce them. It is the whole point of being there. It especially sends the message if they are slowly giving up their boundaries as the night goes on. Being seduced is the thrill. 

Add alcohol. Add sexy outfits. Add a hotel room. 

It is classic PUA.

Instigation

Isolation

Escalation


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> Yeah, I'm asking in general, not intended on a judgement on you of any sort.
> 
> I just think thoughts are just as wrong but we forgive them as we can keep them to ourselves and excuse them. *Thoughts are the formation for action.
> *
> I do think this is why I'm always compelled to blurt mine out. I can't stand to keep them in. Yet, I've met quite a few (my husband being one and I assure you this is almost a relief, yet also a frustration) who keep most thoughts to themselves.
> 
> I often wonder if they're just rotting inside and afraid to get out.


I totally agree. I am all about the positive aspects of affirmations ( Lou Tice ). We program our behaviors through our thoughts.

Still, every single micro thought we have are not the same as actions. In fact the thoughts may just be part of an inner moral dialogue where rational decisions are made. Alcohol does not help here BTW.

In support of what you are saying I absolutley believe that if we let our thoughts wonder too much we are programming ourselves to possible future behavior. But in no way is my admiration for that hot car the same as me strealing that hot car. 

Now if someone has sexual thoughts about an opposite sex friend I think that is just plain trouble waiting to happen. Same for co-workers.

So you are saying that women who go to meat market GNOs to soak up the attention from the men are actually being unfaithful because they are imagining these guys having sex with them? You may have a good point with that.


----------



## COguy

Trenton said:


> Yeah, I'm asking in general, not intended on a judgement on you of any sort.
> 
> I just think thoughts are just as wrong but we forgive them as we can keep them to ourselves and excuse them. Thoughts are the formation for action.
> 
> I do think this is why I'm always compelled to blurt mine out. I can't stand to keep them in. Yet, I've met quite a few (my husband being one and I assure you this is almost a relief, yet also a frustration) who keep most thoughts to themselves.
> 
> I often wonder if they're just rotting inside and afraid to get out.


I agree wholeheartedly. I take the christian approach, Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust you've committed adultery in your heart. I fully believe that.

But at the same time, my wife isn't going to divorce me if I picture you naked. However, if I'm in the shower with you while you're naked, and I'm still picturing you, I'm going to be in trouble.

I have gained an immense respect for the women who readily admit that they could be enticed by other men, and take active steps to prevent themselves from being put in a compromising position. My mom was one of them. After she found out about my wife's cheating, she told me a story about how a man at her work asked her out on a date (they were both married). She said he was very attractive and very successful. She made a point never to be alone with him, and if he ever called her to ask her to do something business related, she cut it short.

I'd much rather be married to a woman who admits they are fallible, and makes precautions to ensure she doesn't get tripped up, then be married to someone that thinks nothing could ever happen to them, so they willingly go into compromising positions.


----------



## morituri

How comfortable would many of the gno defending women be if their husbands had many female friends with whom they communicated with a couple of hours a week?


----------



## Trenton

& COguy, I don't have religion to fall back on. I take my own approach. I'd even garner a guess and say Christianity is a source of cognitive dissonance.


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> *I fail to see the difference. * Both happened but one only in your mind where the only consequences you face are your own and since you're knee deep in yourself, you're most likely to make an excuse and move on.
> 
> Don't know, really.
> 
> Construction guys at work = nasty
> 
> Although it's amazing how easily you can become accustomed to unseemly behavior.


You fail to see the difference between behavior and thoughts?

Actions are the realization of thoughts. We actually have an enormous number of threads of thought going on at any one time in our heads. These thoughts are analyzed and evaluated for action. What we choose to act on is what we are accountable for.

The problem with saying a thought equals an action is then the reciprocal is true. Meaning if you have that thought you might as well take the action. But of course this is absurd. We make choices based on our thoughts. We have contradictory thoughts we choose from.

I guess all that matters is that I can tell the difference between a thought and an action.

So if a man in a 20 year marriage has a thought where he sees a hot looking woman in a bikini and just for an instant thinks wow she is hot, he must answer that he has been unfaithful in his marriage to his wife. He has mentally comitted adultry. He is as bad a man as the husband who actually had sex with another woman. Wow.

Again I agree that we need to have control of our thoughts but honestly if my wife thought I did not find women in general stimulating I think she would have less attraction to me.


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> Well we're all fallible.
> 
> Many will put themselves in situations without even realizing they're in danger.


Absolutely.

Sooooo. If ones SO has a problem with our behavior we might want to trust them a bit and accept that we are fallible and maybe putting ourselves in danger.

:iagree:


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> I do know the difference between thoughts/dreams in our head and reality. I'm not certifiably insane (yet).
> 
> If you have a recurring thought that you continually deny, I don't know, I recognize a thought won't have consequences, but I find fault in it none the less...for myself and for others.
> 
> We have control over our actions. Do you really believe we have no control over our thoughts?


We control our thoughts with boundaries. We learn over time what they should be. When we are young and single we have few thought boundaries. 

We eventually learn that our thoughts can indeed turn into behaviors. So we begin to catch ourselves and have control.

I can notice a nice looking woman and appreciate her BUT I have learned to not dwell on this. This comes with maturity.

That said, I think if we tighten our thoughts too much we are repressing ourselves too much. We have to find a reasonable compromise that allows for our minds to explore all types of thoughts and such. I know you do this. 

We absolutely can control our thoughts. I do not think it is healthy to punish ourselves though as long as we are able to pull ourselves back on the road. 

For example I absolutely do not understand people who imagine having sex with another person while they are having sex with their spouse. UFB.


----------



## COguy

Trenton said:


> I'd even garner a guess and say Christianity is a source of cognitive dissonance.


For some people, yes, it can definitely be a source of that. There are plenty of people who use religion as a crutch or to make up for a lack of critical thought.

My MIL is one of them, and it annoys the hell out of me. But in our topic, I think Jesus was right on. Our thoughts are powerful and out of our thoughts breed action. If we hate, if we lust, if we covet, if we judge in our thoughts, we are on the path to bigger and larger mistakes.


----------



## Entropy3000

FrenchFry said:


> My husband has female friends. Who he probably ends up talking to a couple hours a week. I love them though and he's known them way longer than he's known me.
> 
> :rofl: I love me some TAM.


Marriages have different levels of openess.

Things range between extremes of oneitis to an actual open marriage. 

These GNOs ike this is a further level of openess. The difference here is that much of that openess is unilateral and not agreed upon by the spouses. We call it infidleity. BUT, if the couple is ok with this level of play bewteen them and others then so be it. By definition it is not a betrayal.


----------



## morituri

FrenchFry said:


> My husband has female friends. Who he probably ends up talking to a couple hours a week. I love them though and he's known them way longer than he's known me.
> 
> :rofl: I love me some TAM.




Continuously playing with fire will one day burn most people.


----------



## COguy

Trenton said:


> But do you really need Jesus to tell you that anyway? Seems like common intuitive sense.


Based on advice I see on this board, it's nowhere near common.


----------



## Entropy3000

I learned some things in parochial school. 

1) An appreciation for moral values and respect for others. I got a lot out of my comparitive religion studies. Enough to be agnostic now. So my moral code is not based on any reward or punishment after death. It is based on my beliefs of right and wrong.

2) A real aprreciation for how plaid looks on a woman.


----------



## morituri

FrenchFry said:


> This is something that is just a relationship by relationship thing and painting with too wide of a brush makes you miss out on awesome relationships.


We both know that it is always wise to look both ways before crossing the street. Why is it not wise to be concerned when a husband/wife is too addicted to things that may hurt his/her spouse and marriage?




> My husband has female friends. They quickly became my friends as well, because they are cool as all get out. While he talks to them a couple hours a week, he always tells me when they talked, or he talks on the phone with them with me in the room, with me interjecting commentary. I'm not scared of losing my husband to them at all.


You're lucky so far because it only takes on cunning woman to go after your husband and exploit any marital issues he may be having with you at the moment. Soon afterwards the openness you once shared is gone and is replaced with secrecy.



> I know a lot of the folks on TAM have infidelity experience and that makes them hasty to apply really broad rules to everybody. I have infidelity experience too, and I know how much it sucks. I have a rule too though, and that's own your own sh*t. I own my own, so I don't cheat and if my husband cheated on me, I'd own my own and leave that cheating butt in a heartbeat. He has the same philosophy, so if I do the same he'd do the same. All I can control though is my reactions to his actions and pray that his intentions match his actions.


Intellectualizing infidelity is not the same as experiencing it. You may have been betrayed by a boyfriend in the past but it is nothing like being betrayed by the man who vowed to love, protect and forsake all other women until death. There have been people who have been raped or lost a child, but to some of them the act of their spouse's betrayal devastated them more than those other tragedies. I can vouch for this because as devastating the death of my first wife from cancer, it paled in comparison to the betrayal by my second wife. My first wife didn't choose to die from cancer while my second wife freely chose to betray me.


----------



## Confused Husband 50

FrenchFry said:


> This is something that is just a relationship by relationship thing and painting with too wide of a brush makes you miss out on awesome relationships.
> 
> My husband has female friends. They quickly became my friends as well, because they are cool as all get out. While he talks to them a couple hours a week, he always tells me when they talked, or he talks on the phone with them with me in the room, with me interjecting commentary. I'm not scared of losing my husband to them at all.
> 
> I know a lot of the folks on TAM have infidelity experience and that makes them hasty to apply really broad rules to everybody. I have infidelity experience too, and I know how much it sucks. I have a rule too though, and that's own your own sh*t. I own my own, so I don't cheat and if my husband cheated on me, I'd own my own and leave that cheating butt in a heartbeat. He has the same philosophy, so if I do the same he'd do the same. All I can control though is my reactions to his actions and pray that his intentions match his actions.


My discomfort with my wife going to bars/clubs with her friends (keep in mind I'm out of town for work) comes down to several things: (1) she's been going every weekend unless I'm in town (in which case we do stuff together) and twice a weekend at least once and that seems like a "singles" thing to do (2) her single friend is potentially looking for guys and the one time I was with them was "making out" with a married guy (obviously some issues on the guys part too) (3) I'm not comfortable with her being in a situation where a bunch of drunk guys are hitting on her. Those being said, I should add that she doesn't drink that much and drives home, usually around 1AM, though as I mentioned she wasn't home at least 1 of the days a few weeks ago till 4AM (which I thought was a bit late, though it's hard to articulate a difference between midnight and 4AM). I will say that she does like to dance and always has so its no surprise she'd enjoy going out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Entropy3000

Actually there is an extreme difference between 1AM and 4AM in my view. 

In many places 2AM is closing. Then what? Most issues are going to come up in the wee hours when thinking is not so clear. This is when a predator cuts the target out from the hurd. This is when things are fuzzy to the folks that are supposed to have your back. They cannot remember who left with who. This is when you have car trouble. You know when a car will not start or someone has let some air out of your tires. Certainly no guy would think of that one. This is tough enough when you have married women who are not intending to hookup. And no one has doctored a drink. But if the group is hooking up and pairing off essentially there is less than zero assistance. By less than zero I mean the set as they say in PUA is defaulting to pairing up and not going home. Too easy for a guy to offer to have coffee or just go on to an after hours place when the hubby is away. Why not? Especially if one has socialized and danced all night. Maybe a ride home or just isolation somewhere else.

A married woman out with a single woman who is hooking up with married guys. Seriously? She just likes to dance. Whether she partakes in the debauchery or not she is still the wing woman for the single person. The single person draws the men. She is the excuse to flirt, drink and cuddle with the guys looking to score. She dances with them. No doubt she is descretely dressed and is not grinding and being groped all night long. Not sharing any kisses and so on.

She is isolated from her husband as he is away on a trip. Does this often. Surely she never sees the same guys more than once. She is not in contact beyond these activities. She never would go back to their hotel for drinks in the lobbey. She would never accept a ride where the guy needs to stop home first. If hubby is out of town how does he know when she gets home. She can text him from anywhere. Nothing to see here.

Is there a worse scenario?


----------



## Ryan_sa

FrenchFry said:


> Also, there is a club I went to called The Church. Same thing, right?


I went there years ago! In london? Brilliant place. 
Can a person really get drunk enough to sleep with someone with out knowing what they are doing? I'd be covered in vomit long before that!


----------



## morituri

Frenchfry, I have no problem with your situation because you, your husband, and girlfriends have set up a structure to protect yourselves from the evil people who want to use the two of you for their own selfish reasons. Unfortunately, your situation is more the exception than the rule.


----------



## lininpa

The last GNO I went to ended up with the younger girls getting drunk and silly. We ended up at a male strip joint and the young girls were trying to grab and kiss the strippers ****s. All in all a wasted night of girly silliness. I should have stayed home and had heavy sex with hubby!


----------



## The Middleman

I have a question for the men participating in this conversation, especially those who are against GNOs: Have any of you actually "checked up" or would seriously consider "checking up" on your wife or GF out on a GNO? By "checking up" I just mean discreetly verifying that the wife or GF are where they say they would be and/or just looking at what's going on. I don't mean any type of confrontation.

To the women participating in this conversation: If you found out your husband or BF did what I described above, what do you think your reaction would be?


----------



## Entropy3000

The Middleman said:


> I have a question for the men participating in this conversation, especially those who are against GNOs: Have any of you actually "checked up" or would seriously consider "checking up" on your wife or GF out on a GNO? By "checking up" I just mean discreetly verifying that the wife or GF are where they say they would be and/or just looking at what's going on. I don't mean any type of confrontation.
> 
> To the women participating in this conversation: If you found out your husband or BF did what I described above, what do you think your reaction would be?


I can check her iPhone GPS if I wanted to. She could of course plant the phone somehwere. But if she just called me from it that would be difficult. Besides there would be other red flags if this was going on. I have not caught my wife in a lie. FWIW. Never caught her hiding anything or lying by omission. But nothing is 100%.

But all this said, I will do what I feel I need to do as a married man. I do what I think is right. I am not the least bit concerned with be called jealous, insecure, controlling or even abusive as long as I know I am on the high road. If I though I had reasons to take some action like this I would. I would think it through but I would do it. This comes with transparency. 

BTW I am all for marriage friendly GNOs.


----------



## The Middleman

Entropy3000 said:


> I can check her iPhone GPS if I wanted to. She could of course plant the phone somehwere. But if she just called me from it that would be difficult. Besides there would be other red flags if this was going on. But nothing is 100%


But would you actually go to where she said she was going and personally verify where she was and what she was doing? That's my question. I'm conducting an unscientific poll.


----------



## lovelygirl

The thing is that as long as I respect myself, my partner and our relationship while having a GNO then there's no reason for my partner to worry about anything. THIS IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIP.
I can't be held accountable if my single girl-friends hitting on other men or dating married men.

If I were married, then obviously the GNO would have to be less and less because I'd have to be more responsible towards my marriage/kids.


----------



## lovelygirl

The Middleman said:


> But would you actually go to where she said she was going and personally verify where she was and what she was doing? That's my question. I'm conducting an unscientific poll.


If I didn't trust my partner I would follow him and stay there for a while to see how he acts with his guys, in the club when I'm not around .


----------



## Entropy3000

The Middleman said:


> But would you actually go to where she said she was going and personally verify where she was and what she was doing? That's my question. I'm conducting an unscientific poll.


Why would I do this?

Help me out here. Is she supposed to be at a marriage friendly GNO? So you are wondering if I would validate that?

I would have to have some other gut or otherwise reason to do so. That could be just about anything though.

If we are talking about her doing things I did not agree with I would not bother checking up on her. I would be checking in with my lawyer.


----------



## Lon

lovelygirl said:


> The thing is that as long as I respect myself, my partner and our relationship while having a GNO then there's no reason for my partner to worry about anything. THIS IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIP.


But it requires mutual respect, and as long as you are acting within the boundaries of your relationship then he has no reason to complain. If however you have overstepped his boundaries, the question is would you respect him more or less for trying to protect your relationship by verifying your behavior?



> I can't be held accountable if my single girl-friends hit on other men or date married men.


No but you care accountable to yourself for associating with people of low moral character, and also for choosing to be at a pick-up club with a group of singles when you are not available.


----------



## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> *The thing is that as long as I respect myself, my partner and our relationship while having a GNO then there's no reason for my partner to worry about anything. *THIS IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIP.
> *I can't be held accountable if my single girl-friends hit on other men or date married men.*
> 
> If I were married, then obviously the GNO would have to be less and less because I'd have to be more responsible towards my marriage/kids.


I would hold my wife accountable for being in that situation. This is not a marriage friendly GNO to me. Girls Night Out with Men is not a marriage friendly GNO IMO. YMMV.

I opt for being partners in a marriage. Boundaries are not left up to what one spouse feels is ok at the moment. Spouses can have tunnel vision. Your spouse may see problems with your behavior you do not. Besides in a meat market the men are their to score. Why jump in the shark tank?

We have already covered the topic of opposite sex friends where it seems most women think that the male friends do not want to bed them if they had a chance. Not all but most men know this is naive. But on this type of GNO we are talking about men who have the primary directive of scoring. Some see married women as a bonus score. Sure they may not bed many of the women but why are you letting them have a shot at all?


----------



## lovelygirl

Lon said:


> If however you have overstepped his boundaries, the question is would you respect him more or less for trying to protect your relationship by verifying your behavior?


I'd totally respect him if he tried to verify my actions or check up on me. He has every right to do it whether I crossed the boundaries or not.
Every party in the relationship needs security and one of the ways to have it is by verifying. 




> No but you care accountable to yourself for associating with people of low moral character, and also for choosing to be at a pick-up club with a group of singles when you are not available.


If I go to a club I don't necessarily go there to pick up guys or hit on them. 
I go to have fun, dance and enjoy the evening with my girls. 

It depends on my PURPOSE of going there. If I go there to be noticed and be hit on then it wouldn't be fair while I was in a relationship.
But if I go there to spend a good evening with girls then I don't see anything wrong.

Although, I'd understand the concern of my partner and if he didn't like it, I wouldn't go there again.
I'd highly appreciate is concern and would try to take him with me or not go there at all once again.


----------



## ocotillo

lovelygirl said:


> I go to have fun, dance and enjoy the evening with my girls.


Who would you be dancing with? (i.e. Dancing solo, dancing with your girl friends or dancing with other men.)


----------



## Entropy3000

WOPR : "The only winning move is not to play." -- WAR Games

Once one decides to put themselves into the single scene, there is nothing but shades of gray. So we deal with shades of gray by setting threshholds. We call them boundaries. A good boundary needs to be well defined and acheiveable given the risks.

One can play the game of inserting themselves into these scenarios but I contend that the only winning move is not to play this game at all.


----------



## lovelygirl

ocotillo said:


> Who would you be dancing with? (i.e. Dancing solo, dancing with your girl friends or dancing with other men.)


Obviously with my girlfriends. 
No other men included.

I would never dance with a random guy if I were in a relationship. That would be disrespectful towards my partner.


----------



## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> WOPR : "The only winning move is not to play." -- WAR Games
> 
> Once one decides to put themselves into the single scene, there is nothing but shades of gray. So we deal with shades of gray by setting threshholds. We call them boundaries. A good boundary needs to be well defined and acheiveable given the risks.
> 
> One can play the game of inserting themselves into these scenarios but I contend that the only winning move is not to play this game at all.


You're right. The risk is still there, especially for people who get easily/emotionally attached to other people. 

But I think everyone is different and handles the situation in a different way.


----------



## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> Obviously with my girlfriends.
> No other men included.
> 
> I would never dance with a random guy if I were in a relationship. That would be disrespectful towards my partner.


So you really think that once you are married you are going to want to keep doing this?


----------



## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> So you really think that once you are married you are going to want to keep doing this?


No. As I said earlier I don't really think I'd have GNOs once I get married. I was talking while being in a relationship.

Having GNOs while married wouldn't be very responsible from my part and I guess I'd do it once in a blue moon [if my husband wouldn't have a problem]. If he wouldn't want it then I'd definitely not do it at all. 
I would respect his wish/concern/our marriage way more than my wish to have a GNO.


----------



## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> You're right. The risk is still there, especially for people who get easily/emotionally attached to other people.
> 
> But I think everyone is different and handles the situation in a different way.


While people are not identical I suggest that you do not realize the seriousness of these risks for a married person.

I hear that you as we all have felt are different. I felt the same way before my EA. Pretty much all people who fall into EAs feel this way. In fact it is a requirement. There would be no EAs if people understood they could be vulnerable to them. Think about that one. Those who do not think they would fall into an EA are the people who fall into an EA. They have inadequate boundaries.

So you meet the first requirement of an EA. You think you are immune.

Anyway, you are not married and maybe still a virgin per your internet persona so we need to take this into consideration.

You are single in the single scene and not married. So you have that perspective.


----------



## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> No. As I said earlier I don't really think I'd have GNOs once I get married. I was talking while being in a relationship.
> 
> Having GNOs while married wouldn't be very responsible from my part and I guess I'd do it once in a blue moon [if my husband wouldn't have a problem]. If he wouldn't want it then I'd definitely not do it at all.
> I would respect his wish/concern/our marriage way more than my wish to have a GNO.


Ok then. Just trying to apply your view from a marriage point of view and you have provided your current single behavior and your alternate married behavior. Coolness. The take away is that what was just fine while being single may not be fine after marriage. Cool.


----------



## Lon

lovelygirl said:


> If I go to a club I don't necessarily go there to pick up guys or hit on them.
> I go to have fun, dance and enjoy the evening with my girls.
> 
> It depends on my PURPOSE of going there. If I go there to be noticed and be hit on then it wouldn't be fair while I was in a relationship.
> But if I go there to spend a good evening with girls then I don't see anything wrong.


But to me, since you said you are not accountable for your friends, it is more than just about YOUR purpose, its also about the purpose of the entire group that is going there - so maybe your purpose is just to dance and ?? but if the friends you go with have more in mind such as hitting on men, allowing guys to buy them drinks, grinding on them on dance floor or going home with them, well then it changes the activity of the group you are in. You would be associating with that behavior, and to me in a monogomous relationship that is over the line.


----------



## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> While people are not identical I suggest that you do not realize the seriousness of these risks for a married person.


That's true. You as a married person are more experienced and know a lot more than I do.
I respect that.



> I hear that you as we all have felt are different. I felt the same way before my EA. Pretty much all people who fall into EAs feel this way. In fact it is a requirement. There would be no EAs if people understood they could be vulnerable to them. Think about that one. Those who do not think they would fall into an EA are the people who fall into an EA. They have inadequate boundaries.


Again, true. I don't know how I'd act in a situation until I actually find myself there. 




> Anyway, you are not married and maybe still a virgin per your internet persona so we need to take this into consideration.


Yes, I'm single and a virgin but I think that's irrelevant to our discussion.

I have been in a sexless relationship and I used to always respect my partner's wishes/concerns. 
I've had GNOs while in the relationship with him but there were moments where he didn't feel comfortable about me going out with girls and I didn't go. 
So I know what I'm talking about because I know I am able to listen carefully to what my partner has got to say before I act and do things my way. 
So, given that I was able to respect my ex-boyfriend concerns, sure as hell I'd be able to respect my husband's concerns. 

On the other hand I understand the risk of EAs you were talking about and It could happen to anyone, regardless of how immune we feel we are.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lon said:


> But to me, since you said you are not accountable for your friends, it is more than just about YOUR purpose,* its also about the purpose of the entire group that is going there *- so maybe your purpose is just to dance and ?? but if the friends you go with have more in mind such as hitting on men, allowing guys to buy them drinks, grinding on them on dance floor or going home with them, well then it changes the activity of the group you are in. You would be associating with that behavior, and to me in a monogamous relationship that is over the line.


You're right. I could find myself not being comfortable hanging with that group of single friends.
At this point, it comes down to the TYPE of single friends.
There are girls , who despite of being single, don't like to get wild/naughty with guys on the dance floor. I'm one of them and so are some of my single girl friends. Although being single, inviting guys at our table/grabbing guys on the dance-floor, getting drunk or going home with any of them is not our thing.
So, at this point and given the type of my girlfriends, IF I were already in a relationship I'm sure my girlfriends *wouldn't do *anything with the guys to put me in an uncomfortable situation and make me regret my spent time with them.

So, I have to be well-aware about who I'm going out with and why.
If my single girls were rebellious then chances are I wouldn't have GNOs with them if I were in a relationship.


----------



## Entropy3000

My point on the EA is really related to any vulnerability. If you are aware of a vulnerability and take steps to deal with it, you are at a much lower risk of failure. There are no absolutes in this world. Only probabilities. Even have a great marriage is not garantee. But it helps a lot. So it comes down to building layers of security in a marriage. If one thing breaksdown for a period ... all is not lost because of the other measures in place.

The Germans just went around the Maginot Line. So the French were over confident and did not understand the risks. Surely they were aware but they felt their measures were adequate. Surely no one would be so bold as to go around.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Weird. I generally don't have problems with a girls night out so long as its infrequent. Though I guess it depends on the character of who I'm with and her friends. 

I wouldn't worry about the average woman, and her friends will likely serve as regulators - actively trying to prevent her from doing something she'd regret. It doesn't bother me that some guys might make eyes at my girl, and in fact, I think that's a positive for her self-esteem and I'm going to be the beneficiary.

On the other hand, if I don't respect the character of her friends (ie. would they keep her from doing something she shouldn't, or would they cheer her on) or otherwise consider their partying or sexual attitudes as being too liberal... I'll have reservations. A flirty, extroverted girl, with minimal sexual inhibitions who has an inordinate number of guy friends going out regularly with other similarly minded women... that's a red flag that WILL inevitably be a problem. Putting an end to that relationship before I get burned will always be on my mind... call it a pre-emptive strike.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

The Middleman said:


> I have a question for the men participating in this conversation, especially those who are against GNOs: Have any of you actually "checked up" or would seriously consider "checking up" on your wife or GF out on a GNO? By "checking up" I just mean discreetly verifying that the wife or GF are where they say they would be and/or just looking at what's going on. I don't mean any type of confrontation.


I've checked up several times, but I don't every time. Some might think its paranoid, but if I'm not comfortable, I'll check up from time to time even when my girl isn't out. I'll vary my routine, be home early, randomly stop by at lunch, and randomly verify that she is where she says she is. Pop my head in to make sure she didn't just leave her car somewhere.

In nuclear arms reduction efforts there's a saying: Trust... but verify.

Nobody in my life ever gets 100% trust. Sorry.


----------



## MrK

Confused Husband 50 said:


> When I was back in town one weekend I went out with my wife and her single friend to the clubs and the single friend was engaging in inappropriate behavior with a married male. After that, my wife went clubbing/dancing multiple weekends, and several weekends later my wife was out both Friday and Saturday night till around 3AM and that sort of set me off. *I recently asked her not to go out without me and she was offended (for which I feel bad). For the females here, am I completely out of line (sort of feels like it)?*


That bold part up there. You are asking her to stop doing the below, and you feel bad. Keep in mind, the gals in this post below were on a one time thing. You're wife is a pro. A seasoned veteran.



sundown1965 said:


> about two years ago my wife and three married girlfriends went on an out of town girls getaway. they are all early forties and very attractive ladies.
> yes they did the spa, shopping thing, but they also went to clubs at night.
> my wife said they did not drink much and just visited and people watched.
> she did say that the second night a group of about six guys late twenties/early thirties came in and one had on a "grrom to be" T-shirt.
> she said that one of her friends(the ringleader) was teasing the groom a little.
> this was a very packed hotspot by the way..
> she said none of the other girls had any contact with them.
> I think she admitted that much in case it ever came up in conversation with our friends.
> Even though I was uncomfortable, i didn't make waves,
> So a few days after she gets home she asks me to dowload the pictures of the trip and put them all on a dik for her friends.
> She did not know that I have software to recover deleted pictures from a memory stick.
> 
> there were several pictures of the girls at this club dressed very sexy, low cut shirts, tons of makeup etc.
> 
> In these deleted pictures the girls were intoxicated with shot glasses all over the table. several pictures of these guys at the table with them, hugging for the snapshot, and some of the girls dancing with these guys, some dirty dancing,
> yes they seemed to be laughing and having fun, but is that appropriate??
> when I confronted my wife she said that the ringleader invited them over and she felt she had to go along...and not be rude.
> 
> * ...but is that appropriate?*


The top guy at least was naive as to what his wife is doing at meat markets until 3AM. The second guy has PICTURES and lies of omission, and he's asking if it's appropriate.

I DO NOT want to hear from the "it could be innocent" brigade. ADMITTED: It COULD be innocent. But it's frequently not. And the ones that are innocent USUALLY act differently about it than the cheaters.

Men. Repeat after me. Yes, IT IS APPROPRIATE TO JUST FLAT OUT TELL HER THAT W.H.O.R.I.N.G AROUND AT MEAT MARKETS IS A NON NEGOTIABLE BOUNDARY ISSUE.

Is it appropriate...


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

+1 Mrk is dead on accurate.

Where she goes out is also a critical issue to me. No girl I'm seeing is going to the club or anywhere dancing without me. A bar I can tolerate. And the relationship is gonna end pretty quickly if she comes home at 3am.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

I'm actually going through this issue right now with my girlfriend, who is one of those girls who has mostly male friends. As expected, she deflects when I tell her that no guy is interested in just hanging out with a girl all the time... sex IS on their mind even if its not on hers. With sex completely off the table, a heterosexual male unversally prefers the comraderie of other heterosexual males. Men simply do not form "bro" relationships with females unless they think there's a chance something could happen and getting close to a naive female is the way to open the door. I don't care how masculine the female behaves, she's still not gonna be one of the boys, and the possibility of sex is ALWAYS there in the male mind. The closest thing to a true friendship a man can have with a woman is for occasional venting, advice or emotional support... and even then the time needs to be limited if its going to avoid becoming sexual.

My gf insists that nights out apart are good for a relationship, and that outings with her guy friends (lunches, even movies) are just an expression of the fact that she doesn't get along with girls - most of her friends are guys. I hit her back with the notion that the only reason a woman wants to be able to go out without her boyfriend/husband, especially in a co-ed environment, is because they want to behave in a manner they can't get away with around their man. As far as I'm concerned, if she behaves elsewhere differently than she behaves with me, then that behavior is probably inappropriate. I also think there's a heavy dose of projection going on as just the other day she texted me saying she thinks I'm cheating on her WHILE she's out to lunch with one of her guy friends. I think she has a subconscious shame or guilt about feelings for this guy or the amount of time she spends with him, she denies it and projects that emotion onto me, and I view that as evidence that this guy is going to be an issue. She also knows I'm literally an inch from ending the relationship over the issue.

We fought about this even last night after I decided the only way to make her understand the boundary was to cross it myself. Upon hearing she was planning to see a movie with one of her guy friends (I'm guessing a matinee while I'm at work), I decided to invite a female friend of mine to a movie. As expected, she went balistic and we had a pretty serious fight about it. I think the boundaries that a couple has MUST be shared, and if those boundaries are so lax that each is wondering what the other is doing when they go out alone, then the relationship is like the Titanic leaving port; iceberg right ahead.


----------



## Entropy3000

I would not do it because I think it is wrong but then again how great it would be to have a bunch of close friends of the opposite sex I could date and my wife be ok with it. I could easily claim I get along better with women and not be lying. 

I guess I am just a controlling kind of guy. I expect my SO not to be dating other men.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Entropy3000 said:


> I would not do it because I think it is wrong but then again how great it would be to have a bunch of close friends of the opposite sex I could date and my wife be ok with it. I could easily claim I get along better with women and not be lying.
> 
> I guess I am just a controlling kind of guy. I expect my SO not to be dating other men.


Exactly. Iceberg right ahead.


----------



## Dollystanford

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> just an expression of the fact that she doesn't get along with girls - most of her friends are guys


I've never trusted a chick who says this

and I've been right every time


----------



## lovelygirl

It's funny how your partner claims you should not do something but when it comes to them doing the same exact thing they think it's okay.
It's just so unfair.

You ether do it both or you don't!


----------



## Lon

As a niceguy who always got friendzoned too often, but also just generally gets along with women (whether I find them attractive or not) I partially disagree with devil that heterosexual men "universally" prefer to hang out with other guys. I typically prefer to be alone, I can handle women for longer periods of time and I find I don't relate as much to most guy friends I know - they are either idiots or too much like me and boring.

That being said, if my female friend is *good looking* to me, of course I will stick around and play nice guy if it means there is some slight chance of some kind of sudden romantic interest. Because I would love to nail her. (I mean I still am a heterosexual guy after all).

Yeah that sounds pathetic and sorta is, I'm working it out, but just wanted to post my viewpoint - if devil's gf is pretty good looking, those guy friends absolutely would bang her if she gave them the opportunity. If she's not so much to look at, they are just genuine friends. (crazy isn't it how a woman looks can affect how a man looks at her)


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Hate that "nice guy talking to another guy's girl" stuff. I honestly consider it a pretty douchey move and would never spend too much time with another guy's girl out of respect for the guy she's with. If you're cozying up to another guy's girl and being her "best friend", then it shows a total lack of respect for her man and her relationship imo... and that's not a "nice guy", its a d*ck. As the guy with the girl, you don't have any good options. Confront her and you're "controlling" and "paranoid", confront him and you're a "jerk". Demand less contact with him and you're "taking away one of her few friends". This is always the routine w women who maintain guy friends. Do nothing and you're the naive sucker that gets the bad news one day after months of suppressing jealousy. Its not worth living like that.

At this point she hangs out with him more than she does me (minus sleeping at night) and that's not gonna fly with me.


----------



## Dollystanford

why are you with her again? get rid and find a grown up


----------



## tacoma

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> At this point she hangs out with him more than she does me (minus sleeping at night) and that's not gonna fly with me.


My friend you`ve already made the boundary.

Enforce it.


----------



## lovelygirl

Yeah, Dolly's question makes sense. 
Also, she's dating her guy friends and she's not respecting your concerns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

tacoma said:


> My friend you`ve already made the boundary.
> 
> Enforce it.


Oh it will be. We went to a karaoke contest last night and she was a little upset about not making the finals, which she really should have. What does she do right after I try to cheer her up and tell her how well she did? She texts her guy friend.

She's decided to accept my going to the movies with my female friend over backing off her male friendship, even though she's not comfortable with it. 

The rest of the week is gonna be interesting.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Dollystanford said:


> why are you with her again? get rid and find a grown up


Because I like her, she's a lot of fun, smart, we have chemistry, I enjoy talking to her and she's hot.

Occassionally catching up with your guy friend, no problem. Texting him constantly, going on two lunch dates, a night out without me where he was there, going geocaching and hanging out w him, all in the span of a week is a problem.

I'm taking a wait and see approach now, but hells no, I'm not *that* guy and she knows it. I'm still with her because I really care about her, but no one is worth constantly having to look over your shoulder and she will never convince me that these sort of relationships are okay.


----------



## Conrad

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Hate that "nice guy talking to another guy's girl" stuff. I honestly consider it a pretty douchey move and would never spend too much time with another guy's girl out of respect for the guy she's with. If you're cozying up to another guy's girl and being her "best friend", then it shows a total lack of respect for her man and her relationship imo... and that's not a "nice guy", its a d*ck. As the guy with the girl, you don't have any good options. Confront her and you're "controlling" and "paranoid", confront him and you're a "jerk". Demand less contact with him and you're "taking away one of her few friends". This is always the routine w women who maintain guy friends. Do nothing and you're the naive sucker that gets the bad news one day after months of suppressing jealousy. Its not worth living like that.
> 
> At this point she hangs out with him more than she does me (minus sleeping at night) and that's not gonna fly with me.


Entropy has pointed out time and again (it's the truth)

The "****blocking friend" is the biggest danger going.

He's meeting emotional needs for protection and support.

Get her ovulating one night and he makes an alpha move....

"Oh, but MY girlfriend would never.."

Yeah, right.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Because I like her, she's a lot of fun, smart, we have chemistry, I enjoy talking to her and she's hot.
> 
> Occassionally catching up with your guy friend, no problem. Texting him constantly, going on two lunch dates, a night out without me where he was there, going geocaching and hanging out w him, all in the span of a week is a problem.
> 
> I'm taking a wait and see approach now, but hells no, I'm not *that* guy and she knows it. I'm still with her because I really care about her, but no one is worth constantly having to look over your shoulder and she will never convince me that these sort of relationships are okay.


So your relationship allows you to date other people? No problem if that is the case (done that myself a time or two), because that is what is happening.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Exactly, and no I have no interest in allowing dating. I've already layed it out for her, now its time to watch and see how she reacts.


----------



## Lon

Why wait and see? You already see. no waiting necessary. instead of testing her by passively manipulating by pretending to date another woman, actively enforce your boundary and tell her if she wants to remain emotionally attached to this guy then you are ending your relationship with her because you know it can't work out this way for you.


----------



## Conrad

Lon said:


> Why wait and see? You already see. no waiting necessary. instead of testing her by passively manipulating by pretending to date another woman, actively enforce your boundary and tell her if she wants to remain emotionally attached to this guy then you are ending your relationship with her because you know it can't work out this way for you.


I can hear it now...

"You're so controlling"


----------



## Lon

Conrad said:


> I can hear it now...
> 
> "You're so controlling"


honestly right now, in my loneliness, I could only WISH that I had someone telling me I was too controlling at this very moment!


----------



## Conrad

Lon said:


> honestly right now, in my loneliness, I could only WISH that I had someone telling me I was too controlling at this very moment!


Did you get that motorcycle picture taken?


----------



## Dollystanford

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Because I like her, she's a lot of fun, smart, we have chemistry, I enjoy talking to her and she's hot.
> 
> Occassionally catching up with your guy friend, no problem. Texting him constantly, going on two lunch dates, a night out without me where he was there, going geocaching and hanging out w him, all in the span of a week is a problem.
> 
> I'm taking a wait and see approach now, but hells no, I'm not *that* guy and she knows it. I'm still with her because I really care about her, but no one is worth constantly having to look over your shoulder and she will never convince me that these sort of relationships are okay.


so she knows you're not that guy but she's still doing it anyway?

you either like her enough to lay it on the line and tell her to stop or you'll walk, or you carry on seething and playing games with each other

or do you not want to give her that ultimatum because you know deep down what the answer will be?

I don't know my friend, sounds like an awful lot of drama to me


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Lon said:


> Why wait and see? You already see. no waiting necessary. instead of testing her by passively manipulating by pretending to date another woman, actively enforce your boundary and tell her if she wants to remain emotionally attached to this guy then you are ending your relationship with her because you know it can't work out this way for you.


I already told her this wasn't gonna play. Now we'll see if she cuts back on her contact with this guy to a level I'm comfortable with. I'm not going to just break up with her without giving her a chance.

I don't have a problem with her knowing and occassionally hanging out with a male friend. It shouldn't be so regular and consistent however.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Conrad said:


> I can hear it now...
> 
> "You're so controlling"


Already heard it.


----------



## Conrad

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Already heard it.


Stand your ground.

Read the thermostat thread.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Dollystanford said:


> so she knows you're not that guy but she's still doing it anyway?
> 
> you either like her enough to lay it on the line and tell her to stop or you'll walk, or you carry on seething and playing games with each other
> 
> or do you not want to give her that ultimatum because you know deep down what the answer will be?
> 
> I don't know my friend, sounds like an awful lot of drama to me


I've already layed it down and now I have to wait and see how she responds. I'm not cool with her spending this much time alone with another guy, and effectively dating him and leaning on him for support. If it continues, we won't.


----------



## Lon

Conrad said:


> Did you get that motorcycle picture taken?


ha!, no not yet. forgot all about this.


----------



## Lon

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I've already layed it down and now I have to wait and see how she responds. I'm not cool with her spending this much time alone with another guy, and effectively dating him and leaning on him for support. If it continues, we won't.


how long are you going to wait? indefinitely? Make it happen right now. Otherwise you really aren't enforcing your boundary.


----------



## lovelygirl

I wouldn't have any problem if my partner called me "controlling". I'd answer "yeah, I'm controlling! So what! You either accept me as I am or just leave!!"
Actually I used to have this discussion with my ex and I've admitted to the fact that I am strict when it comes to relationships and I don't allow the teenage games your girlfriend is playing with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LaxUF

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Because I like her, she's a lot of fun, smart, we have chemistry, I enjoy talking to her and she's hot.
> 
> Occassionally catching up with your guy friend, no problem. Texting him constantly, going on two lunch dates, a night out without me where he was there, going geocaching and hanging out w him, all in the span of a week is a problem.
> 
> I'm taking a wait and see approach now, but hells no, I'm not *that* guy and she knows it. I'm still with her because I really care about her, but no one is worth constantly having to look over your shoulder and she will never convince me that these sort of relationships are okay.


Hi Dvls,

Is this the same gf you've been seeing for awhile, the young college student? Just a guess here but given her level of maturity, the mental/emotional stability, the underlying issues with your marriage/getting caught, your impending divorce, etc... I would venture to guess that she is incredibly insecure about your relationship and that you may also be projecting a bit yourself. You two have an enormous amount of work to establish a solid foundation of trust in an already delicate relationship. 

A girl's night out with females and/or males should not be an issue in a healthy, trusting relationship. I am one of "those females" who has more male friends than female friends. I just like guy activities (sports, hobbies, etc.) more than female activities (shopping, salons, etc.). That doesn't mean that I am not aware that some guy friends may want to cross that boundary but if I'm not interested, then I'm NOT interested so any advances would be shot down. If our platonic friendship really matters to him then he'd be fool to jeopardize it by making a move on me. If he doesn't respect that then he isn't a friend and good riddance.

Playing tit-for-tat games can be a little immature, yes? I have a few very close male friends that have NEVER made a move and one that is an ex-boyfriend but would NEVER cross any lines out of respect (and disinterest on both our parts). I'd have a real issue with a new boyfriend who demanded I end my friendships if he was simply insecure even though he has zero reason to be concerned. 

Insisting she excommunicate a male friend without any legitimate cause for concern may not be a fair request. If he has made a move on her or plans to then wouldn't he have done so by now? If he does then it is her responsibility to nip it in the bud and end the friendship. 

Just laying out a different perspective for you to ponder - not intending for it to be a smack upside your head.


----------



## Conrad

Lon said:


> ha!, no not yet. forgot all about this.


Seize the Day Brother!

Carpe Diem


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Lon said:


> how long are you going to wait? indefinitely? Make it happen right now. Otherwise you really aren't enforcing your boundary.


I don't think you're quite following me. The boundary is in force. I talked to her today and she's not going to the movies with the guy and told him she wouldn't be seeing him as much. I also canceled plans with my female friend.

Again, a guy friend I can tolerate. I can't tolerate hanging out and going to eat w a guy almost daily. While I don't think she actually has any ill motive, I think this is how bad things develop. 

She seems to be doing the right thing.


----------



## Lon

Oh ok, sorry if I misunderstood, I thought you meant you were going to allow her to ween her emotional attachemtn off of this guy slowly in the expectation that she'd be able to slowly transfer it into her relationship with you... but it obviously doesn't work that way cause if she wants that emotional bond with both of you and is being forced to quit with one she is just building resentment instead.

She may be doing the right thing but its atleast as important she's doing it for the right reason (ie because she WANTS to build the intimacy with you alone)


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LaxUF said:


> Hi Dvls,
> 
> Is this the same gf you've been seeing for awhile, the young college student? Just a guess here but given her level of maturity, the mental/emotional stability, the underlying issues with your marriage/getting caught, your impending divorce, etc... I would venture to guess that she is incredibly insecure about your relationship and that you may also be projecting a bit yourself. You two have an enormous amount of work to establish a solid foundation of trust in an already delicate relationship.
> 
> A girl's night out with females and/or males should not be an issue in a healthy, trusting relationship. I am one of "those females" who has more male friends than female friends. I just like guy activities (sports, hobbies, etc.) more than female activities (shopping, salons, etc.). That doesn't mean that I am not aware that *ALL* guy friends *want* to cross that boundary but if I'm not interested, then I'm NOT interested so any advances would be shot down. If our platonic friendship really matters to him then he'd be fool to jeopardize it by making a move on me. If he doesn't respect that then he isn't a friend and good riddance.
> 
> Playing tit-for-tat games can be a little immature, yes? I have a few very close male friends that have NEVER made a move and one that is an ex-boyfriend but would NEVER cross any lines out of respect (and disinterest on both our parts). I'd have a real issue with a new boyfriend who demanded I end my friendships if he was simply insecure even though he has zero reason to be concerned.
> 
> Insisting she excommunicate a male friend without any legitimate cause for concern may not be a fair request. If he has made a move on her or plans to then wouldn't he have done so by now? If he does then it is her responsibility to nip it in the bud and end the friendship.
> 
> Just laying out a different perspective for you to ponder - not intending for it to be a smack upside your head.


Couple fixes I made for you, and yes, some guys may never make a move... and it wouldn't surprise me since this is their chosen means of pursuit - its weak and indirect. I'm not insisting she excommunitate her male friends... but I am insisting her time with them be limited and I will apply the same standards of behavior to my relationships with other females as she applies to her relationships with other males.

While I respect your opinion, these situations lend themselves to developing emotional connections that I don't want a woman I'm with to have with any other man. I know a little something about cheating. If you don't want it to happen, you avoid putting yourself in isolated situations with guys who want to get into your pants... which, if you're attractive, is virtually any guy. I would also absolutely not date any woman who keeps a friendship and regular contact with an ex-boyfriend. You really have no problem with guys you date talking to their exes? C'mon, I find that hard to believe.

If she wants to hang out with this dude more than she wants to hang out with me, or otherwise spend such significant time with him, she can go date him and I'll find someone who makes me their priority.

That's where I draw the line and its non-negotiable.


----------



## Dollystanford

well then I hope it works out for you darling, just be careful you don't push it underground


----------



## Entropy3000

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Hate that "nice guy talking to another guy's girl" stuff. I honestly consider it a pretty douchey move and would never spend too much time with another guy's girl out of respect for the guy she's with. If you're cozying up to another guy's girl and being her "best friend", then it shows a total lack of respect for her man and her relationship imo... and that's not a "nice guy", its a d*ck. As the guy with the girl, you don't have any good options. Confront her and you're "controlling" and "paranoid", confront him and you're a "jerk". Demand less contact with him and you're "taking away one of her few friends". This is always the routine w women who maintain guy friends. Do nothing and you're the naive sucker that gets the bad news one day after months of suppressing jealousy. Its not worth living like that.
> 
> *At this point she hangs out with him more than she does me (minus sleeping at night) and that's not gonna fly with me.*


I guess I would hate the bolded a lot more than I would care about being called a jerk, controlling, insecure, paranoid, @$$hole, jealous or anything.

Tell her that her relationship with this guy is unacceptable. That she either cuts this off immediately or you are gone. You will not accept another guy in your relationship.


----------



## Entropy3000

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I already told her this wasn't gonna play. Now we'll see if she cuts back on her contact with this guy to a level I'm comfortable with. I'm not going to just break up with her without giving her a chance.
> 
> I don't have a problem with her knowing and occassionally hanging out with a male friend. It shouldn't be so regular and consistent however.


Your choice of course but this seems very gray and wishy washy. What exactly is the hrad boundary to cutting back? What is the boundary for so regualr and consistent. Why so vague. Even with the vaguesness it is waut and see.

Ok this may indeed work and I hope it does but this boundary if hard to see at all. Essentially you just do not want to notice her contact so much.

You do realize that at the least she has a real emotional bond with this guy.

I think you are conflicted. You want to believe you are open and cool about relationships but I think you are battling with some realities. Taking a hard stand is in direct opposition as to how you think you should act.

Not trying to say what is right and wrong but do you see yourself as struggling with your own feelings?


----------



## LaxUF

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> yes, some guys may never make a move... and it wouldn't surprise me since this is their chosen means of pursuit - its weak and indirect.
> 
> *That isn't a fair statement - Not EVERY guy has an agenda to sleep with an attractive girl who is just a friend. That is like saying every homosexual has an agenda to sleep with every straight person. That doesn't mean it might not cross their mind but it doesn't equate to ALL or even a plan of attack.*
> 
> I'm not insisting she excommunitate her male friends... but I am insisting her time with them be limited and I will apply the same standards of behavior to my relationships with other females as she applies to her relationships with other males.
> 
> *That is reasonable - if it is done with the right intentions (not derived from jealousy, spite, insecurity)*
> 
> While I respect your opinion, these situations lend themselves to developing emotional connections that I don't want a woman I'm with to have with any other man. I know a little something about cheating. If you don't want it to happen, you avoid putting yourself in isolated situations with guys who want to get into your pants... which, if you're attractive, is virtually any guy. I would also absolutely not date any woman who keeps a friendship and regular contact with an ex-boyfriend. You really have no problem with guys you date talking to their exes? C'mon, I find that hard to believe.
> 
> *It depends on the ex and the nature of their friendship. If she is still hung up on him or is bat sh!t crazy then yes, I'd have a major problem with it and I'd have a good reason to be. However - not every ex is like that. I'm actually very good friends with my ex-fiance's wife. I love her to pieces and she feels the same about me. My exf is a wonderful man and we loved each other very much for many years but we were not at all right for each other as a long-term couple. They are meant for each other and I couldn't be happier for them.*
> 
> If she wants to hang out with this dude more than she wants to hang out with me, or otherwise spend such significant time with him, she can go date him and I'll find someone who makes me their priority.
> 
> *Again, that is reasonable and you should be a priority over another guy - but if you are busy with your friends, your kids or your (in process ex) wife then she should be able to maintain her friendships. Let me now ask you to be honest with yourself too - if you hadn't cheated on your wife with her do you think you would be having this issue?
> 
> Would you feel the same if this was a gay male or female friend who she was spending time with if you were not available or around?*
> 
> That's where I draw the line and its non-negotiable.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

LaxUF said:


> Hi Dvls,
> 
> Is this the same gf you've been seeing for awhile, the young college student? Just a guess here but given her level of maturity, the mental/emotional stability, the underlying issues with your marriage/getting caught, your impending divorce, etc... I would venture to guess that she is incredibly insecure about your relationship and that you may also be projecting a bit yourself. You two have an enormous amount of work to establish a solid foundation of trust in an already delicate relationship.
> 
> A girl's night out with females and/or males should not be an issue in a healthy, trusting relationship. I am one of "those females" who has more male friends than female friends. I just like guy activities (sports, hobbies, etc.) more than female activities (shopping, salons, etc.). That doesn't mean that I am not aware that some guy friends may want to cross that boundary but if I'm not interested, then I'm NOT interested so any advances would be shot down. If our platonic friendship really matters to him then he'd be fool to jeopardize it by making a move on me. If he doesn't respect that then he isn't a friend and good riddance.
> 
> Playing tit-for-tat games can be a little immature, yes? I have a few very close male friends that have NEVER made a move and one that is an ex-boyfriend but would NEVER cross any lines out of respect (and disinterest on both our parts). I'd have a real issue with a new boyfriend who demanded I end my friendships if he was simply insecure even though he has zero reason to be concerned.
> 
> Insisting she excommunicate a male friend without any legitimate cause for concern may not be a fair request. If he has made a move on her or plans to then wouldn't he have done so by now? If he does then it is her responsibility to nip it in the bud and end the friendship.
> 
> Just laying out a different perspective for you to ponder - not intending for it to be a smack upside your head.


While this might sound great, I don't see it in the scenario that he laid out. She has had two lunch dates, an evening with him without Devil, and an afternoon date of geocaching, all in the same week. add to that she is texting the guy often, even while on the date with Devil. She is clearly expending more energy dating this other guy than she is Devil. I don't care if they are having sex or not, that would never fly in my relationship if we were suppose to be exclusive. 

Honest question - if your exclusive boyfriend did the above, would you really say it is okay?


----------



## tacoma

Tall Average Guy said:


> Honest question - if your exclusive boyfriend did the above, would you really say it is okay?


I`m pretty sure she wouldn`t allow what she says is just fine for herself.

I don`t know why anyone would allow a SO to "hang out" with a previous lover and I`m pretty sure she wouldn`t.

She`d be a fool to, or at least very young and naive.


----------



## Entropy3000

tacoma said:


> I`m pretty sure she wouldn`t allow what she says is just fine for herself.
> 
> I don`t know why anyone would allow a SO to "hang out" with a previous lover and I`m pretty sure she wouldn`t.
> 
> She`d be a fool to, or at least very young and naive.


Is the other guy a previous lover? Sorry if I missed that. Wow. 

He is bending over backwards to not be a jerk about things. 

If the other guy is a previous lover this is over the top just for that if this is an exclusive relationship. Otherwise she is just dating at least two men. This is at the least what she is doing. She is dating the other guy. What would we expect from our SO dating an ex lover. One she spends more time with than the boy friend?

Yes, couples have their own threshhold for how open a relationship is. I would ask where are the perceived boundaries here? Specifically. Where are the limits to her relationship with this other guy. She seems to come home at night. 

So he should just trust her relationship with this guy? Really?

I am all for jealousy and insecurity when there is a reason. He should be jealous in this case as another man is spending time with his GF. He should feel insecure because there is a third party in the relationship. This gets gray and he may find out he is the third party and not the other guy.
Worrying about being called jealous, insecure or controlling is a real weakness. One should internally evaluate their own motives but should not allow themselves to be controlled or manipulated by others. Never compromise your fundamental boundaries out of fear.


----------



## tacoma

Entropy3000 said:


> Is the other guy a previous lover? Sorry if I missed that. Wow.


No not the OP.

LaxUF`s reply mentioned she wouldn`t give up her ex-boyfriend for her current boyfriend because that`s just "controlling".

:rofl:




LaxUF said:


> Playing tit-for-tat games can be a little immature, yes? I have a few very close male friends that have NEVER made a move and one that is an ex-boyfriend but would NEVER cross any lines out of respect (and disinterest on both our parts). I'd have a real issue with a new boyfriend who demanded I end my friendships if he was simply insecure even though he has zero reason to be concerned.


----------



## Entropy3000

tacoma said:


> No not the OP.
> 
> LaxUF`s reply mentioned she wouldn`t give up her ex-boyfriend for her current boyfriend because that`s just "controlling".
> 
> :rofl:


LOL. Ok good. Just wow.

I do struggle with the GF / BF versus Wife / Husband. We get told that in an LTR it is the same thing. I agree to a great extent as I do not really view someone as being single just prior to their wedding.
I also think that being engaged is a big step and would require changes of behavior. 

Then again I am thinking that some folks would feel ok in a marriage "hanging out" with ex lovers. LOL.

Not sure what the boundaries are here.

I am not familiar with his previous marriage. Dvls was there infidelity there?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Entropy3000 said:


> Your choice of course but this seems very gray and wishy washy. What exactly is the hrad boundary to cutting back? What is the boundary for so regualr and consistent. Why so vague. Even with the vaguesness it is waut and see.
> 
> Ok this may indeed work and I hope it does but this boundary if hard to see at all. Essentially you just do not want to notice her contact so much.
> 
> You do realize that at the least she has a real emotional bond with this guy.
> 
> I think you are conflicted. You want to believe you are open and cool about relationships but I think you are battling with some realities. Taking a hard stand is in direct opposition as to how you think you should act.
> 
> Not trying to say what is right and wrong but do you see yourself as struggling with your own feelings?


I don't think I'm being vague. I told her I want to know when she's out with a guy, and that I want it to be a sporadic, fairly rare thing.

I'm honestly not against her having lunch on occassion with a male co-worker, and I don't think this guy is a real threat... this is just the first time the issue has come up so I'm making sure she knows my limits.

Nah, I'm not conflicted at all. I don't have a problem with her friends. But there are friends and then there are friends. Going out with them several times a week, sending dozens and dozens of texts and effectively dating just isn't the kind of friend she's going to have if she's with me.


----------



## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Worrying about being called jealous, insecure or controlling is a real weakness. Never compromise your fundamental boundaries out of fear.


:iagree:


Truer words couldn't be said!


Can I put this in my signature and credit you?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LaxUF said:


> That isn't a fair statement - Not EVERY guy has an agenda to sleep with an attractive girl who is just a friend. That is like saying every homosexual has an agenda to sleep with every straight person. That doesn't mean it might not cross their mind but it doesn't equate to ALL or even a plan of attack.


Oh if only you knew how fair of a statement it is. Yes, the totally "just friends" guys who are attracted to you want to sleep with you. This is universally true. Its even a constant theme on the ugly truth about men thread.



LaxUF said:


> That is reasonable - if it is done with the right intentions (not derived from jealousy, spite, insecurity)


I don't even see how it could be viewed as a matter of spite unless the person that thinks so is wanting to get away with things they don't want their partner doing. ie "I can go out with guys, but you only go out with girls out of spite". That's crap, and a bogus control mechanism.




LaxUF said:


> Again, that is reasonable and you should be a priority over another guy - but if you are busy with your friends, your kids or your (in process ex) wife then she should be able to maintain her friendships. Let me now ask you to be honest with yourself too - if you hadn't cheated on your wife with her do you think you would be having this issue?


Oh absolutely. This isn't something caused by the situation. This is a characteristic of the girl I'm dating. You can maintain a friendship without seeing and texting them almost every day. Hell, you can maintain a friendship seeing someone less than once a week. 

If I'm busy with my friends, she's always invited. She knows what she's getting when I have the kids, and I don't see my ex anymore than practically necessary.



LaxUF said:


> Would you feel the same if this was a gay male or female friend who she was spending time with if you were not available or around?


Nope. She has several gay and female friends. She's welcome to build as much connection to them as she wants. Is that fair? I don't really care. That's my limit, I've laid it out to her, if she doesn't like it she can find another guy. Its really that simple. 

I'll have a problem if time with me is getting cut so she can spend more time with anyone else, but no girlfriend of mine is going to be dating another hetero guy on the side. Period.


----------



## DaKarmaTrain!

GNO's to bars/clubs is imo a bad idea.

GNO was one of the components to the breakdown of my marriage. My STBXW would go out every Sunday with her friends to a local dive-bar to sing karaoke. She would get dressed to the nines each time.

I recall one Sunday evening where she came downstairs after getting ready. She twirled around and asked how she looked. I responded with 'looks like you are going out on a date!'. She didn't like that.

2 weeks after we called it quits for good (the marital bed wasn't even cold) she began bringing around a guy to the old house for sex. Can anyone here hazard a guess where she met this guy?


----------



## LaxUF

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Oh if only you knew how fair of a statement it is. Yes, the totally "just friends" guys who are attracted to you want to sleep with you. This is universally true. Its even a constant theme on the ugly truth about men thread.
> 
> *That may be true for you from your experience & perspective. I maintain my opinion that not EVERY heterosexual male on the planet would cross boundaries with a woman they genuinely respect.*
> 
> I don't even see how it could be viewed as a matter of spite unless the person that thinks so is wanting to get away with things they don't want their partner doing. ie "I can go out with guys, but you only go out with girls out of spite". That's crap, and a bogus control mechanism.
> 
> *I wasn't implying that your mutual decision was being made out of spite or controlling - I was stating that it shouldn't be made out of spite or a means to control.*
> 
> 
> Oh absolutely. This isn't something caused by the situation. This is a characteristic of the girl I'm dating. You can maintain a friendship without seeing and texting them almost every day. Hell, you can maintain a friendship seeing someone less than once a week.
> 
> *This goes back to my original point of the fundamental nature of not only your girlfriend's emotional challenges but also the origins of your relationship which was created through your infidelity. Not judging or slamming you - just pointing out again that those two factors alone lend themselves to the fragility of your relationship. If you really want this to work you will need to remind yourself the foundation isn't stable.*
> 
> If I'm busy with my friends, she's always invited. She knows what she's getting when I have the kids, and I don't see my ex anymore than practically necessary.
> 
> *If she is purposely excluding you from outtings with her friend then that is an entirely different matter than her spending time with a friend when you are not available to join them.*
> 
> Nope. She has several gay and female friends. She's welcome to build as much connection to them as she wants. Is that fair? I don't really care. That's my limit, I've laid it out to her, if she doesn't like it she can find another guy. Its really that simple.
> 
> *Here you confirmed that her friendship has less to do with spending time with a friend apart from you and more to do with fear of this particular friend... who is a heterosexual male who very well may OR may not have any interest at all in sleeping with your girlfriend. Again - this speaks to the insecurity and fragility of your foundation with her.*
> 
> I'll have a problem if time with me is getting cut so she can spend more time with anyone else, but no girlfriend of mine is going to be dating another hetero guy on the side. Period.
> 
> *Yes, if she is taking time away from your available time with her then absolutely. She should spend the majority of your mutual free time together - however... her life shouldn't stop if you are not available.*


----------



## LaxUF

tacoma said:


> No not the OP.
> 
> LaxUF`s reply mentioned she wouldn`t give up her ex-boyfriend for her current boyfriend because that`s just "controlling".
> 
> :rofl:


*BTW... I NEVER SAID OR EVEN IMPLIED what you wrote above...*



Entropy3000 said:


> LOL. Ok good. Just wow.
> 
> I do struggle with the GF / BF versus Wife / Husband. We get told that in an LTR it is the same thing. I agree to a great extent as I do not really view someone as being single just prior to their wedding.
> I also think that being engaged is a big step and would require changes of behavior.
> 
> Then again I am thinking that some folks would feel ok in a marriage "hanging out" with ex lovers. LOL.
> 
> Not sure what the boundaries are here.
> 
> I am not familiar with his previous marriage. Dvls was there infidelity there?


*Tacoma & Entropy* - I think you may misunderstand a little bit of what I was attempting to communicate. Please refer to my follow up posts to Dvls for additional background, perspectives & clarifications. It is not as cut & dry or presumptive as I may have appeared to be; my apoloigies for not being more clear.


----------



## Zippy the chimp

I think it depends on who is going on the girls night, my WS went on one of these me not thinking I said fine they were all friends and I knew all of them, 1 girl is in the process on getting a D 3 others were single and another one was not in a happy marriage. Needless to say my wife is the only one who got some guy's number and stared a sexting thing and I thought she was happily married. If all the people are married and happy(course you never know)the plans are on the up and up I don't see anything wrong with it but going bar hopping is not what I would consider safe but then again my WS isn't allowed any of those activities right now. I am not saying the girls thing can't include a bar or drinks/dancing but I don't know right now don't trust my WS as far as I could throw her.


----------



## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> Truer words couldn't be said!
> 
> 
> Can I put this in my signature and credit you?


Sure.

In the business world conflict is often a very good thing. Done properly it requires the "sides" to rethink what part of their boundary is most important to them. Sometimes they can restate it in a way that leaves room for a reasonable compromise that does not compromise what is really important to them. The real reason for having the boundary. 

I am not suggesting people should chip away at their boundaries as it is good to have some buffer, but once one really understands their own personal boundaries, it is not a good idea to compromise those. Nothing noble about it. It takes away from ones core values.
This protects ones integrity.


----------



## Entropy3000

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't think I'm being vague. I told her I want to know when she's out with a guy, and that I want it to be a sporadic, fairly rare thing.
> 
> I'm honestly not against her having lunch on occassion with a male co-worker, and I don't think this guy is a real threat... *this is just the first time the issue has come up so I'm making sure she knows my limits.*
> 
> Nah, I'm not conflicted at all. I don't have a problem with her friends. But there are friends and then there are friends. Going out with them several times a week, sending dozens and dozens of texts and effectively dating just isn't the kind of friend she's going to have if she's with me.


Coolness.


----------



## Good Dog

My wife and I have struggled with the GNO issue as well. It's good to see that there are a variety of opinions on this site about this particular topic. On so many other sites when I've tried to talk about the whole thing, the automatic response is "You're a controlling jerk for wanting any say about what your wife does when she goes out, what time she comes home, or how she dresses!" and that's the only opinion allowed. Not to say that a husband can't be controlling on the issue, but to assume any husband (or wife going the other way on guy's night out) is controlling for wanting some input seemed so narrow-minded.


----------



## Entropy3000

LaxUF said:


> Tacoma & Entropy - I think you may misunderstand a little bit of what I was attempting to communicate. Please refer to my follow up posts to Dvls for additional background, perspectives & clarifications. It is not as cut & dry or presumptive as I may have appeared to be; my apoloigies for not being more clear.


I read your responses. I get what you are telling him. BUT it still boils down to a guy not being ok with his mate soending time with other guys.
He should be jealous and insecure with her doing this. He has reason to be. Men do not invest time in a woman they have no interest in. EAs come from this. So do FWBs. It does not have to be every time to be a bad risk. many folks are not willing to take that risk. I am not.

There are just some risks I do not think I am willing to take. Life is full of risk versus reward. 

Whether every guy is out after their female friend is debatable. I had a number of female freinds where I did not push the boundaires but would have jumped in the sack if it was offerred with nothing but great jubilation. Some did and some did not.

But I will tell you some had more interest in me when I looked to be taken. Some say this is the pre-selection effect. I used to think I got more attention after I married because I had assumed they figured I was safe. I do not think that was all of it.

We fall in love with our friends because we already love them. We may not fall in love with all of them but effectively dating them is asking for this to happen. Russian Roulette.

It has been my personal experience that ex lovers can fall back into bed in hours if not minutes. This happened to me with a woman who I later found out was living with her boy friend. We ran into each other one day. We decided to meet for dinner and dancing. She came home with me. I was not pushing anything. She explained to me at dinner that we could not just pick up where we left off. She did not mention a boy friend but she later asked to come home with me. That night ... we broke the bed. But it is not just one incident. Ex lovers know they are on the short list. It may be just a touch or a look. Or a sound. It is never ever innocent after the bond has happened. Both parties know the dance.

But whether or not this is about EVERY guy it does not matter to many of us. If a guy told us his GF was spending the night over at her ex lovers house we would just smack the back of his head.

Having a truly close opposite sex friend is just too much like dating IMO. To each their own. Whatever works for them. It is not something I would accept. Sorry no dating other people.


----------



## LaxUF

I'm just going to follow with two simple statements:

"Hi Pot, my name is Kettle - have we met before?"; and

"Why hello Elephant - I didn't notice you sitting there."

Then again, maybe it's just me... so nevermind. Carry on!


----------



## Cosmos

My partner wouldn't have a problem with me going on a GNO, and I wouldn't have a problem with him going on a BNO. However, I doubt that either of us would be happy if one of our nights out included dancing with members of the opposite sex.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LaxUF said:


> That may be true for you from your experience & perspective. I maintain my opinion that not EVERY heterosexual male on the planet would cross boundaries with a woman they genuinely respect.


You're certainly welcome to your opinion. Saying "EVERY" is obviously a generalization. However, I profer that being a heterosexual male and not being the target OF heterosexual males, I have a bit more insight and honest male opinion than you on the matter. The overwhelming consensus on the issue makes the generalization rather useful for behavior prediction.

"All men are pigs" isn't said for nothing. Excusing the generalization, the truth is that if you're attractive your male friends want to have sex with you. Period. The single ones, the ones that have no chance, the best friend who never even makes a sexual comment, the married ones, even the average ex boyfriend would hit it again. They may or may not act on it for a variety of reasons (generally the only one that will stop us is fear of losing what we have), but they all want to. That's just how it is. Guys will have friendships with girls for YEARS that never go sexual even though they want it to... usually because he lacks the confidence to seal the deal. These are the types of guys that are perpetually friendzoned. They'd rather at least feel like the chase is still going and there's a small chance than jump out, get rejected and have no future chance.



LaxUF said:


> I wasn't implying that your mutual decision was being made out of spite or controlling - I was stating that it shouldn't be made out of spite or a means to control.


I think the character of it is irrelevant. What's good for one partner is good for the other, and if the one doesn't like it they need to rethink their treatment of the others boundaries.



LaxUF said:


> This goes back to my original point of the fundamental nature of not only your girlfriend's emotional challenges but also the origins of your relationship which was created through your infidelity. Not judging or slamming you - just pointing out again that those two factors alone lend themselves to the fragility of your relationship. If you really want this to work you will need to remind yourself the foundation isn't stable.


Its certainly not a good idea to add pressure to an unstable situation by pushing each others boundaries either.



LaxUF said:


> If she is purposely excluding you from outtings with her friend then that is an entirely different matter than her spending time with a friend when you are not available to join them.


I'm purposely excluded from her girl's nights and one of those girls nights turned out to not be a girls night. Her entire social group at work was there, including the guy she always hangs out with now. She was pissed off when I questioned it, and I've decided that instead of being reconciliatory or nice when she gets pissed off over my concerns, I'm going to amp up. I've found that a lot of people use anger and intensity to force others into submitting; a sort of way to flip the table - " It was totally innocent. You're crazy and controlling! And you need to know something... its not very attractive!" I know better than to cave to it. I've decided to match her intensity and ignore her attempt to make me feel bad for questioning a situation that at the very least looks REALLY bad. Her angry response to it was further evidence. I questioned it in a very calm but direct and unhappy manner... even making a joke about it. Instead of apologizing for things looking as bad as they did, or for the fact that her night out evolved into something she and the girls weren't intending, she became defensive. Red flag.

When she went out to lunch with this guy friend a few days ago I was available. She texted me while they were together asking where I was. I was at my friends house. She said she thinks I'm cheating on her (the projection of subconsious shame over her feelings for her guy friend imo). I asked where she was, and she said "*we're *at lunch at..."; this obviously meaning her and the guy. So I said I was on my way. I showed up, they were finished eating. I later asked her why she didn't ask me to lunch being she knew I wasn't working. She replied that I said I was at my friends house. Of course, the problem there is that she was already at lunch with him when she contacted me - which is the only way they could have been finished with it in a couple minutes it took me to get there, so this was a lie protecting the real reason she went to lunch with him and not me.



LaxUF said:


> Here you confirmed that her friendship has less to do with spending time with a friend apart from you and more to do with fear of this particular friend... who is a heterosexual male who very well may OR may not have any interest at all in sleeping with your girlfriend. Again - this speaks to the insecurity and fragility of your foundation with her.


Uh... yeah, I'm a guy who doesn't want his gf regularly hanging out with other guys that want to bed her. Insecurity?? How about common sense? It has nothing to do with my foundation with her. Prior to my ex-wife and I disconnecting, I would never have seen or talked to ANY girl often enough to cause her to even begin to be concerned about it.

Its certainly not fear. Its very simple. If she doesn't have these boundaries, I don't want her regardless of whether she would ever make a move or not.

I have no problem and actually enjoy competing with other guys to win the girl. I'm not going to live my life constantly competing with other guys just to KEEP the girl. I don't want to be constantly on guard because she's everyone's flirty little buddy. Its exhausting.



LaxUF said:


> Yes, if she is taking time away from your available time with her then absolutely. She should spend the majority of your mutual free time together - however... her life shouldn't stop if you are not available.


I was available. She went to lunch with him. She has plenty of female and gay friends at work. Her life doesn't have to stop, but if her life is a life with other guys while I'm not available, then this relationship stops.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Entropy3000 said:


> I am not familiar with his previous marriage. Dvls was there infidelity there?


Our marriage was already in the crapper... she obsessed with the kids and I just checked out and did my own thing. I was the cheater, but we didn't divorce over cheating.


----------



## lovelygirl

Sorry LaXUF but just because you or other girls have good friendships with guys this doesn't mean that all the rest of the girls are like that.
Not all girls know how to behave and keep the right distance when they're out with a guy friend.

The problem is not about having friends of the opposite sex, it's about how you act around them.

Clearly, DvlsAdvc8's gf is acting immaturely.


----------



## tacoma

LaxUF said:


> *BTW... I NEVER SAID OR EVEN IMPLIED what you wrote above...*


You didn`t say it but you did imply it with the statement about the only reason for a present BF to ask you to stop seeing an Ex BF being his insecurity.
I withdraw the "controlling" comment regardless.

Insecurity is justifiable when you`re talking about a lover who is now spending time alone with someone who used to put their privates inside her.
That fact alone is reason enough to "be concerned" as you put it.

It is not out of line at all to hold a boundary that requires NC with a former sex partner.

It would lead directly to divorce court if my wife were to even consider I`d accept such an asinine proposition.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LaxUF said:


> I'm just going to follow with two simple statements:
> 
> "Hi Pot, my name is Kettle - have we met before?"; and
> 
> "Why hello Elephant - I didn't notice you sitting there."
> 
> Then again, maybe it's just me... so nevermind. Carry on!


I'm sorry, but I think its you on this one. Who is being hypocritical?

Proof of the issue lies in how my guy-friending girlfriend reacted to my telling her I was going to go out with a female friend of mine. She freaked out and it was just short of a breakup. See, I know not to work on a build relationships with females independent of my gf... forget about doing it OFTEN. But what's good for her is good for me. If she won't respect my boundaries I damn well won't respect hers and that will be the end of that.

The innocent friend crap is just that... crap. Proven again and again on this forum. I guess we all have priorities. I value her more than my friendships with other women. I expect the same.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

tacoma said:


> It would lead directly to divorce court if my wife were to even consider I`d accept such an asinine proposition.


Absolutely agree. A male friend is one thing. A close male friend spending a ton of time with her and texting constantly is another... and both pale in comparison to ANY kind of relationship/contact with a previous sexual partner.

The latter two are deal breakers for me. Always have been, always will be.


----------



## LaxUF

lovelygirl said:


> Sorry LaXUF but just because you or other girls have good friendships with guys this doesn't mean that all the rest of the girls are like that.
> Not all girls know how to behave and keep the right distance with they're out with a guy friend.
> 
> The problem is not about having friends of the opposite sex, it's about how you act around them.
> 
> Clearly, DvlsAdvc8's gf is acting immaturely.


I absolutely agree that not every female knows how to behave or respect boundaries just as not every male knows how to either. Not every female is going to fall prey to the advances of a guy and not every guy is going to make those advances. 

Placing EVERYONE into a category of mistrust without provocation is one thing - placing an actual cheater (Dvls & his gf who he had the affair with) into a category of mistrust is valid. They are on shaky ground to begin with. 

I'm even going so far as to allow room for the chance they may have both learned from their mistakes and would not cheat on the other. Hence my vociferous objection to sweeping generalizations.

Back to my original statement that an occasional girl's or guy's night out should not be an issue in a healthy stable relationship. If the relationship is not healthy or stable then yes; there should be cause for concern there may be ulterior motives at play.

He just made the statement that it wasn't simply a GNO - the other guy was there a fact that I was not aware of prior. That does just add more fuel to the already fragile state of affairs (pardon the pun).


----------



## lovelygirl

LaxUF said:


> Back to my original statement that an occasional girl's or guy's night out should not be an issue in a healthy stable relationship. If the relationship is not healthy or stable then yes; there should be cause for concern there may be ulterior motives at play.


That's the exact same thing I said several posts ago. When there is trust and respect, GNOs wouldn't have to be a problem. On the other hand, I've also admitted to my willingness to decrease the number of/stop GNOs if my partner didn't feel comfortable.


----------



## Dollystanford

funny thing, when I met the ex and for the first 9 or so years of our relationship I didn't want to be out without him and vice versa. We were always together, not because of jealousy or checking up on each other but because we wanted to be together all the time, it never even crossed our minds to do things with other people on our own

mind you we've split up now so what do I know heh heh


----------



## LaxUF

tacoma said:


> You didn`t say it but you did imply it with the statement about the only reason for a present BF to ask you to stop seeing an Ex BF being his insecurity.
> I withdraw the "controlling" comment regardless.
> 
> *Thank you - I can appreciate that it may be semantics but it does lose it's intent without context. What I said was, "I'd have a real issue with a new boyfriend who demanded I end my friendships if he was simply insecure even though he has zero reason to be concerned." What I failed to convey is that IF he (the new bf) is demanding an end to a long term friendship SIMPLY because he is projecting his insecurities onto me & my friend because HE is/was a cheater instead of allowing for the fact that it is actually possible for two grown adults to have respect for one another and not cross boundaries.
> 
> NOT every male or female is respectful but some people can keep their hands & inappropriate advances to themselves... some people have better friends than others... some people get burned... sometimes they don't.*
> 
> Insecurity is justifiable when you`re talking about a lover who is now spending time alone with someone who used to put their privates inside her.
> That fact alone is reason enough to "be concerned" as you put it.
> 
> *I respect your opinion on this and agree with the caveat that not every person or previous relationship begins or ends the same way. If I have to worry about a romantic interest falling into bed with another then I'm probably just going to say they aren't for me regardless of whether it is an ex or a new person.*
> It is not out of line at all to hold a boundary that requires NC with a former sex partner.
> 
> *Allowing for close personal relationships with children, family, etc... within respectable reason of course.*
> 
> It would lead directly to divorce court if my wife were to even consider I`d accept such an asinine proposition.


----------



## LaxUF

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> "All men are pigs" isn't said for nothing. Excusing the generalization, *the truth is that if you're attractive your male friends want to have sex with you. Period.*
> 
> The single ones, the ones that have no chance, the best friend *who never even makes a sexual comment, the married ones, even the average ex boyfriend would hit it again. *
> 
> 
> They may or *may not act on it for a variety of reasons *(generally the only one that will stop us is fear of losing what we have), but they all want to. That's just how it is. Guys will have friendships with girls for YEARS that never go sexual even though they want it to... usually because he lacks the confidence to seal the deal. These are the types of guys that are perpetually friendzoned. They'd rather at least feel like the chase is still going and there's a small chance than jump out, get rejected and have no future chance.
> 
> *REALLY? There are no gentlemen who would object to being categorized as such? Well - maybe it's the company I prefer to keep who can respect boundaries without having to be reminded? I'm not saying they don't exist but I can say they would not be a friend of mine if they were.*
> 
> Its certainly not a good idea to add pressure to an unstable situation by pushing each others boundaries either.
> 
> *But are you not both guilty of doing so prior to your wife's discovery of the affair and most recently with the "good for the goose/gander" exchange?*
> 
> I'm purposely excluded from her girl's nights and one of those girls nights turned out to not be a girls night. Her entire social group at work was there, including the guy she always hangs out with now.
> *This makes a big difference from the picture I had previously - and yes, if there is willful exclusion then you have a valid point... but...*
> 
> or for the fact that her night out evolved into something she and the girls weren't intending, *If it wasn't WILLFUL she should not be blamed...*she became defensive. *Just a guess but this probably lends itself to the fear that either of you will cheat on the other given your mutual history.*
> 
> She said she thinks I'm cheating on her (the projection of subconsious shame over her feelings for her guy friend imo).
> 
> *Well... you do have to allow for consideration that you did cheat on your wife with her. Can't really say that I would blame either of you for being concerned about the other but I would like to hope that neither of you would go down that road again.*
> 
> so this was a lie protecting *the real reason* she went to lunch with him and not me.
> 
> *What was the real reason?*
> 
> Uh... yeah, I'm a guy who doesn't want his gf regularly hanging out with other guys that want to bed her.
> 
> *Did she tell you that he does? Did he?*
> 
> Insecurity?? How about common sense? *It has nothing to do with my foundation with her. *
> 
> *Sorry - I beg to differ that it has a great deal to do with it.*
> 
> Prior to my ex-wife and I disconnecting, I would never have seen or talked to ANY girl often enough to cause her to even begin to be concerned about it.
> 
> *Yet you still had an affair with this girlfriend instead of getting divorced after your "disconnect".*
> 
> Its certainly not fear. Its very simple. If she doesn't have these boundaries, I don't want her regardless of whether she would ever make a move or not.
> 
> *I'm going to agree with you that she doesn't have boundaries - but still want to have hope for you both that perhaps you are both building some now.*
> 
> I have no problem and actually enjoy competing with other guys to win the girl. I'm not going to live my life constantly competing with other guys just to KEEP the girl. I don't want to be constantly on guard because she's everyone's flirty little buddy. Its exhausting.
> 
> *But yet she is who you chose to be with before and even now.*


*I swear I am not trying to beat you up over this issue. I do have good intentions here in that my hope for you is to see where these concerns are not going to vanish now that you are getting divorced. 

If you have to worry about her "falling prey" or not saying "No" to the advances of EVERY heterosexual male in North America then you have a lot more to worry about than those males getting into her pants simply because she is a pretty girl. *


----------



## that_girl

My male friends (the couple I have) have been friends for over 8 years now. Never had sexual feelings. One is an art buddy, the other is from a Pagan group I used to attend. 

Boundaries have always been there and we've always been with other people. We don't get together as much now that I've moved and got married, but we talk sometimes and it's no big deal. If one came to town, we'd probably go out, but I think I'd take my husband just because I like going out with him too. 

But my husband is laid back. He knows where my heart is. I know where my heart is.

GNOs that involve a bunch of women in their 30s (like me) dressing like they're 20 and giggling all night? Eh, not my thing.

I'd rather grab a bottle of wine, a pack of smokes and go sit with a girl friend to talk about life and stuff.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

lovelygirl said:


> That's the exact same thing I said several posts ago. When there is trust and respect, GNOs wouldn't have to be a problem. On the other hand, I've also admitted to my willingness to decrease the number of/stop GNOs if my partner didn't feel comfortable.


Which is exactly what I said. I generally don't have a problem with occassional GNOs. When they are once a week or more, combined with multiple one on one outings with male friends per week, combined with discovering one GNO wasn't actually a GNO... and boom... way past my limits.

I agree with Entropy. I'm not going to date a girl who is effectively dating another guy. That they may or may not end up having sex is irrelevant. The risk is too great and the constant companionship of another guy is inappropriate to my mind.

The great thing is that these are my boundaries, so they aren't really up for debate. Someone else can date the girl who is also dating another guy. I won't do it.


----------



## Entropy3000

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Which is exactly what I said. I generally don't have a problem with occassional GNOs. When they are once a week or more, combined with multiple one on one outings with male friends per week, combined with discovering one GNO wasn't actually a GNO... and boom... way past my limits.
> 
> I agree with Entropy. I'm not going to date a girl who is effectively dating another guy. *That they may or may not end up having sex is irrelevant.* The risk is too great and the constant companionship of another guy is inappropriate to my mind.
> 
> The great thing is that these are my boundaries, so they aren't really up for debate. Someone else can date the girl who is also dating another guy. I won't do it.


Exactly.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LaxUF said:


> REALLY? There are no gentlemen who would object to being categorized as such? Well - maybe it's the company I prefer to keep who can respect boundaries without having to be reminded? I'm not saying they don't exist but I can say they would not be a friend of mine if they were.


Nope. Even the "gentlemen" have thought about it. Every relationship a woman has with a man who finds her attractive is effectively a relationship with a man who wants to have sex with her but is constrained by external factors. It is the equivalent of storing matches in the same box as dynamite. You don't want an explosion, but what's likely to happen when the right nudge comes along?

Its an ugly truth, but it really is truth. If you ask us about it we're generally going to tell you what you want to hear, "What? Nah, you're like my sister." Even the good guys want to have sex with you and would act on it if there were absolutely no repercussions.



LaxUF said:


> But are you not both guilty of doing so prior to your wife's discovery of the affair and most recently with the "good for the goose/gander" exchange?


Oh there's a ton of baggage in this relationship to begin with, but what I'm talking about is how we behave moving forward. As I said, I will not respect anyone's boundaries when they do not respect mine. She either wants me and my limits or she doesn't. I sacrifice my relationships with female friends because I know she has a problem with them. I'm simply not going to be the only one sacrificing. So if she's going to have so much contact with another guy, I'm going to be having a lot of contact with another girl. Its a recipe for a breakup. In truth, neither of us is comfortable with the other seeing someone else all the time, and its simply her hypocrisy on the issue I'm attempting to reveal in hopes that she will respect those boundaries.



LaxUF said:


> or for the fact that her night out evolved into something she and the girls weren't intending, If it wasn't WILLFUL she should not be blamed...she became defensive. Just a guess but this probably lends itself to the fear that either of you will cheat on the other given your mutual history.


Okay... you and your boyfriend go out independently. Your girls night turns into a disaster and you want to vent your frustrations to your boyfriend but he's not returning your texts. You go where he's having his guy's night and when you walk in he's sitting at the bar with a girl he works with that just broke up with his girlfriend... and all of the crew he hangs out with, male and female are there but sitting 20ft away at a table. What's your reaction?

Mine was to start talking about the disaster that my night became. Then, I said something like "Sure are a lot of guys here for a girls night out." Yeah she got defensive. Why? Why not text me and say the guys came out? Why not invite me if the nature of the outing changed? See, I still don't believe it was ever a girls night out. I've learned the guys were planning to go there to play cards anyway... so it was never really a girls night out. It was just a night out without me.



LaxUF said:


> Well... you do have to allow for consideration that you did cheat on your wife with her. Can't really say that I would blame either of you for being concerned about the other but I would like to hope that neither of you would go down that road again.


No, I'm not giving any consideration for that given all she had to do was invite ME to lunch and not this dude. I was available, she knew I was available... she chose to go to lunch with him and then accuse me of cheating WHILE she's out with him. That's a projection if I've ever seen one.



LaxUF said:


> so this was a lie protecting the real reason she went to lunch with him and not me.
> 
> What was the real reason?


To spend time with him over me.

Uh... yeah, I'm a guy who doesn't want his gf regularly hanging out with other guys that want to bed her.



LaxUF said:


> Did she tell you that he does? Did he?


Don't be naive.



LaxUF said:


> Insecurity?? How about common sense? It has nothing to do with my foundation with her.
> 
> Sorry - I beg to differ that it has a great deal to do with it.


Yeah, because you're in my head you have a lot of room to tell me what I'm feeling. I don't want my girlfriend building close emotional ties with other men. That's MY place. That's why **I** am her boyfriend and not this other guy. Take that away and I'm just the guy she has sex with. If she just wants me to be a fwb fine... if she wants a boyfriend then sorry, ties to other guys aren't gonna fly and its not insecurity. Its about having a special place in someone's life and being their priority.



LaxUF said:


> Yet you still had an affair with this girlfriend instead of getting divorced after your "disconnect".


Yeah I did, I was definitely afraid of the dramatic changes that come with the D-word. In retrospect I would have divorced up front. There was no need to go through that whole affair song and dance. When I'm with someone, they are my number 1 priority for as long as I'm theirs. I'm feeling a lot like number 2 lately with my girlfriend... and that directly relates to boundaries being crossed.



LaxUF said:


> But yet she is who you chose to be with before and even now.


I think she's great, but no I'm not going to spend my life in a constant state of alertness and intensity trying to outcompete every other guy that comes along. That's exhausting. If I can't feel at-ease in a relationship at some point, I'm not going to keep that relationship. I'm tired. I want to let my guard down.



LaxUF said:


> I swear I am not trying to beat you up over this issue. I do have good intentions here in that my hope for you is to see where these concerns are not going to vanish now that you are getting divorced.
> 
> If you have to worry about her "falling prey" or not saying "No" to the advances of EVERY heterosexual male in North America then you have a lot more to worry about than those males getting into her pants simply because she is a pretty girl.


These concerns have nothing to do with the divorce. They go away or remain independent of the divorce. These are concerns unique to this relationship. Every human being is susceptible to "falling prey" or not saying "no" when the right temptation comes along. The relationships worth keeping are those where the other party knows better than to put themselves in those situations... not just have the fortitude to say "no". We are all human.

I'd rather have someone who knows to avoid those situations and even the appearance of impropriety out of respect for their partner than someone who thinks they're totally in control of themselves and can say "no" in the heat of the moment.

I think going out with another guy all the time is a sign of utter disrespect to the guy you're dating, and the appearance of impropriety makes him look pathetic to everyone aware of the situation and no guy with a shred of dignity should stand for it.

I certainly won't.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

that_girl said:


> Boundaries have always been there and we've always been with other people. We don't get together as much now that I've moved and got married, but we talk sometimes and it's no big deal. *If one came to town, we'd probably go out, but I think I'd take my husband just because I like going out with him too.*
> 
> But my husband is laid back. He knows where my heart is. I know where my heart is.
> 
> GNOs that involve a bunch of women in their 30s (like me) dressing like they're 20 and giggling all night? Eh, not my thing.
> 
> I'd rather grab a bottle of wine, a pack of smokes and go sit with a girl friend to talk about life and stuff.


Exactly. I see no reason for my gf to go hang out with another guy when I'm available unless she chooses his company over mine. In such case, I don't want to be with her anymore. And if I'm not available, I expect those occassions that she goes out with this guy to be fairly rare.


----------



## DaKarmaTrain!

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'm sorry, but I think its you on this one. Who is being hypocritical?
> 
> Proof of the issue lies in how my guy-friending girlfriend reacted to my telling her I was going to go out with a female friend of mine. She freaked out and it was just short of a breakup. See, I know not to work on a build relationships with females independent of my gf... forget about doing it OFTEN. But what's good for her is good for me. If she won't respect my boundaries I damn well won't respect hers and that will be the end of that.
> 
> The innocent friend crap is just that... crap. Proven again and again on this forum. I guess we all have priorities. I value her more than my friendships with other women. I expect the same.


Not much to add except that I could have wrote this...


----------



## that_girl

Dude. You can't control what people think. Just have strong boundaries and make your relationship solid and you're good to go.

I mean, one of my friends is a lesbian...maybe she thinks about sex with me! OH NO! :rofl: wtf. Who cares. 

Men I work with are awesome. I'm the only female 5th grade teacher. The men rock. I respect them professionally. Have they thought about sex? I don't know, nor do I care. I'm not thinking about sex, so it's a moot point.


----------



## that_girl

Besides, my eyes are full of eye-candy right now! Hubs is in the backyard with the pick-ax, turning soil...shirtless and sweaty.

All I need. *swoon*


----------



## that_girl

However, GNO or Guy Time that consistently means your spouse/SO hanging out with a certain friend of the opposite sex, is dangerous...and dating. So I wouldn't stand for that.

But on the rare occasion I go for GNO, and I'm dressed up nice (because why would i go out sloppy?!) and there are men at the establishment, I'm not going to worry what they are thinking. I don't entertain their advancements or conversation, but you can't control what people think. Hell, people around me right now could be thinking like a Democrat. I should probably leave. :rofl:


----------



## Entropy3000

You know though when their little sweety leaves the house to go on her GNO, in her micro dress sans under garments and FM pumps some guys are thankful that their lady is is going out with the girls and dancing in a circle and have that hotel room to sleep off the alcohol before coming home. :smthumbup:


----------



## Jimena

My husband and I have a very trusting relationship when it comes to members of the opposite sex. It goes all the way back to the beginning of our relationship (long distance: we'd go 3-6 ithout seeing each other for 4 years).

My hubby tries to encourage me to go out more. I'm generally the coffee house type, but I also adore salsa dancing. He doesn't dance like that and doesn't care if I dance with other guys. He also knows that I never have more than 1 drink (that's mostly from my tendencies to be a bit of a control freak, even of myself)

Moreover, he loves hip hop and goes to a lot of shows. He invites me out, but I don't really care for the genre, and sometimes these things are on weeknights and I have to work in the morning. I know he has a drink or two, jams out to the music, and random girls grind on him every now and then. It never goes farther than that, he even tells me about it ("I can't beleive she just grabbed my crotch like that!! And her bf was right there!) Some times the evening ends with him coming home eager to lay me out :smthumbup:

We even have friends of the opposite sex. I had my guy friends from college stand up at our wedding. Some of his gal friends he meets for a movie or dinner. Half the time afterwards, he tells me: I'm so glad you're not as messed up as other women. (he's a bit of a fixer type)

So, I don't see that jealousy really has any place in a healthy relationship. OR at the very least, make sure you're both the same amount of jealous.


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## DaKarmaTrain!

Jimena said:


> My husband and I have a very trusting relationship when it comes to members of the opposite sex. It goes all the way back to the beginning of our relationship (long distance: we'd go 3-6 ithout seeing each other for 4 years).
> 
> My hubby tries to encourage me to go out more. I'm generally the coffee house type, but I also adore salsa dancing. He doesn't dance like that and doesn't care if I dance with other guys. He also knows that I never have more than 1 drink (that's mostly from my tendencies to be a bit of a control freak, even of myself)
> 
> Moreover, he loves hip hop and goes to a lot of shows. He invites me out, but I don't really care for the genre, and sometimes these things are on weeknights and I have to work in the morning. I know he has a drink or two, jams out to the music, and random girls grind on him every now and then. It never goes farther than that, he even tells me about it ("I can't beleive she just grabbed my crotch like that!! And her bf was right there!) Some times the evening ends with him coming home eager to lay me out :smthumbup:
> 
> We even have friends of the opposite sex. I had my guy friends from college stand up at our wedding. Some of his gal friends he meets for a movie or dinner. Half the time afterwards, he tells me: I'm so glad you're not as messed up as other women. (he's a bit of a fixer type)
> 
> So, I don't see that jealousy really has any place in a healthy relationship. OR at the very least, make sure you're both the same amount of jealous.


How long have the 2 of you been together?


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## Jimena

11 years


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## that_girl

I was all for it until the "grinding" and crotch grabbing bit. :lol: Hell no. So what if he tells you about it. Lord knows what else happened that he doesn't tell you. But glad you're ok with it.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Jimena said:


> My husband and I have a very trusting relationship when it comes to members of the opposite sex. It goes all the way back to the beginning of our relationship (long distance: we'd go 3-6 ithout seeing each other for 4 years).
> 
> My hubby tries to encourage me to go out more. I'm generally the coffee house type, but I also adore salsa dancing. He doesn't dance like that and doesn't care if I dance with other guys. He also knows that I never have more than 1 drink (that's mostly from my tendencies to be a bit of a control freak, even of myself)
> 
> Moreover, he loves hip hop and goes to a lot of shows. He invites me out, but I don't really care for the genre, and sometimes these things are on weeknights and I have to work in the morning. I know he has a drink or two, jams out to the music, and random girls grind on him every now and then. It never goes farther than that, he even tells me about it ("I can't beleive she just grabbed my crotch like that!! And her bf was right there!) Some times the evening ends with him coming home eager to lay me out :smthumbup:
> 
> We even have friends of the opposite sex. I had my guy friends from college stand up at our wedding. Some of his gal friends he meets for a movie or dinner. Half the time afterwards, he tells me: I'm so glad you're not as messed up as other women. (he's a bit of a fixer type)
> 
> So, I don't see that jealousy really has any place in a healthy relationship. OR at the very least, make sure you're both the same amount of jealous.


thids sounds likre a fvcking mess in ther making. maybe nor now but at some point. count drme out odf thsat [email protected]


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## DaKarmaTrain!

Yeah, what 2nd_t!me said! :scratchhead:


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## DaKarmaTrain!

Jimena said:


> 11 years


To each his own, but I think you guys are crossing some boundries here that could have disasterous consequences in the future.

Hope I'm wrong...


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## Entropy3000

DaKarmaTrain! said:


> To each his own, but I think you guys are crossing some boundries here that could have disasterous consequences in the future.
> 
> Hope I'm wrong...


Not defending these activities at all. I essentially agree with you.

The thing is that they have different boundaries. Not sure exactly what they are. I think they are impractical boundaries though. This marriage is at least a little more open than most. We just can't tell how open from the post. Not something many of us would want any part of.


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## diwali123

I would not be happy if chicks were touching my man like that. Salsa dancing is different because as far as I know there's no grinding or booty dancing. I don't think there's a lot to be jealous of there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

I find this episode as intereesting:

Science of Sex Appeal- Flirting Females - YouTube


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## Caribbean Man

Hello,
This is my take on this " Girls Night Out " issue.

We have been married for over 12 yrs, and clubbing/ disco was never my W's thing. She likes fine dining,shopping ,travelling
[ cruises ] etc.
She has been on cruises with her friends,my mom etc.She hangs out with her girlfriends pretty regular. But they are not the "toxic" type.
She know our boundaries,and she knows not to push it. I know for sure men hit on her all the time.
I think part of this GNO debate has to do with a person being honest with themselves. If a woman wants to cheat,nothing in the world would stop her. Same with men.
I am involved in the Fashion / Apparel Industry and always have
" offers " with no strings attached. Some girls will do anything to see their face on the cover of a fashion magazine, or advance their modelling career.I have always turned them down.
My entire staff is female and they know if they" try anything " they will get fired.
I used to be involved in fashion show productions,at the back coordinating events. Behind the runway / catwalk, these models would usually be topless,sometimes with little " pasties" covering their nipple$ putting on and taking off different outfits as the show progressed. Wifey didn't like the idea so I stopped producing. Not that it ever really affected me,[lol, which man wont feel powerful having a bunch of half naked girls running around taking orders from him?] but it affected her.That's her boundary for me.
Hell,iv'e even been hit on by men,but i'm just not into that. [ she usually laughs at it whenever it happens.]
But boundaries are important and each couple needs to be honest with each other and themselves.
I'm not saying that my W has never been tempted,but she does not willingly put herself in the way of temptation. Just makes no sense.
Same with me.


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## DvlsAdvc8

My relationship imploded Friday night. I told her earlier in the day I was going to go running with a female co-worker after work. I figured that if she was going to lunches and geocaching with a guy, she shouldn't mind me going running with a girl.

She wasn't happy about it and said she wanted to meet her first, which was fair, I met her guy friend before they started hanging out all the time. So I arranged a night out together with her male friend and my female friend. I held out a little hope they might even like each other.

Absolute disaster. My friend thought her friend was pretty cool, but her friend thought she was too into me. My gf didn't like that she hugged me (she always hugs guys she knows) and most of her conversation was directed at me through the night. I tried to explain that she was talking to the only person at the table she knew. My gf was irritated that I was "defending" her. At some point my gf went to the bathroom and my friend moved between me and her guy friend to show us some pics on her phone. She told me to move a seat over and I did, and then I realized the seating might upset my gf so I moved an additional seat over. Sure enough, my gf was pissed when she saw we had moved, even though I kept an empty seat between us. She also said she felt like my friend was ignoring her. I spent the whole night trying to get everyone to interact with everyone.

We went dancing for a few minutes (read: I can't dance) and my friend and her friend were grinding pretty good, but at some point my friend sent me a text that she wanted to dance with me (bad move). My gf saw the text and was livid and said I'm not to hang out with her unless I wanna break up.

The mood of the night was totally poisoned and my friend left (oddly, she was oblivious to anyone having a problem - and thought we were having fun; her mood was messed up by some texts she was getting from her ex boyfriend; she got quiet for awhile and decided to head out). My gf and I left a little while later. On the way to the car I got chewed out for not respecting her feelings. The argument continued in the car on the way home as I was explaining that my friend was probably just talking to me because I'm the only one she knew. My gf insisted that the girl was into me, and during a particularly heated exchange, she jabbed me in the side of the head (the fourth time I've been punched in the last 6 mos).

I lost it, cussed her out and said we're done. When we got to her house she wouldn't get out of my car so I agreed to come inside. We made up but after she fell asleep I kept thinking about all the problems we have and the fact that she hit me again and decided it just wasn't going to work.

I left in the morning before she woke up and sent a text explaining things. A pretty ********* move I've never done before, but I knew it was the only way it was going to end without drama or getting punched again.

So I'm officially single again... feels weird. What's worse is that I still love her and I already miss her.


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## Lon

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I left in the morning before she woke up and sent a text explaining things. A pretty ********* move I've never done before, but I knew it was the only way it was going to end without drama or getting punched again.


ummm, actually sounds like your plan for a dramaless end to the relationship kinda backfired there... I mean, wasn't the whole double-date thing specifically meant to make this issue surface in the most dramatic way possible? You set up a date with your friend specifically to test your gf. Wouldn't it just have been better to just stick with your boundary like we all suggested?

(btw I'm not criticizing you, I'm pretty sure I'd be guilty of d0uchebaggery too)


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## lovelygirl

I can say your female friend wasn't any smart throughout the entire night.
She made a lot of mistakes and any girl in your gf's shoes would have been pissed off.


Ignoring the gf of your guy-friend is NEVER a good idea and sends out the wrong message. 
Whenever I am with my guy-friends and their girlfriend I ALWAYS make sure to interact with those girls so that I won't come across as if I'm ignoring them and I don't want them to feel bad. I try to socialize as if they were my girl-friends. 
Just because you were the only one she knew doesn't mean she had to ignore the rest of the table, especially your gf.

Also, the text message she sent you saying she wanted to dance with you made her look like she was telling you something in secrecy. Very lame. 
And I can tell she might be a bit selfish. 


On the other hand, your gf[now ex] got a taste of her own medicine. That's how it feels to be disrespected by your partner's friend and that's how it feels when you partner wants to hang out with such girls. 
Hopefully she learned the lesson and you get back together.
I have a feeling your break up won't last for long.


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## effess

My wife would never do the club/dancing thing but i don't have a problem w it. i trust her and don't understand not trusting other men argument - is ur wife some impressionable dope who'll sleep w the first slick talking d-bag she happens on??? 
Its a self esteem thing


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## Conrad

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> My relationship imploded Friday night. I told her earlier in the day I was going to go running with a female co-worker after work. I figured that if she was going to lunches and geocaching with a guy, she shouldn't mind me going running with a girl.
> 
> She wasn't happy about it and said she wanted to meet her first, which was fair, I met her guy friend before they started hanging out all the time. So I arranged a night out together with her male friend and my female friend. I held out a little hope they might even like each other.
> 
> Absolute disaster. My friend thought her friend was pretty cool, but her friend thought she was too into me. My gf didn't like that she hugged me (she always hugs guys she knows) and most of her conversation was directed at me through the night. I tried to explain that she was talking to the only person at the table she knew. My gf was irritated that I was "defending" her. At some point my gf went to the bathroom and my friend moved between me and her guy friend to show us some pics on her phone. She told me to move a seat over and I did, and then I realized the seating might upset my gf so I moved an additional seat over. Sure enough, my gf was pissed when she saw we had moved, even though I kept an empty seat between us. She also said she felt like my friend was ignoring her. I spent the whole night trying to get everyone to interact with everyone.
> 
> We went dancing for a few minutes (read: I can't dance) and my friend and her friend were grinding pretty good, but at some point my friend sent me a text that she wanted to dance with me (bad move). My gf saw the text and was livid and said I'm not to hang out with her unless I wanna break up.
> 
> The mood of the night was totally poisoned and my friend left (oddly, she was oblivious to anyone having a problem - and thought we were having fun; her mood was messed up by some texts she was getting from her ex boyfriend; she got quiet for awhile and decided to head out). My gf and I left a little while later. On the way to the car I got chewed out for not respecting her feelings. The argument continued in the car on the way home as I was explaining that my friend was probably just talking to me because I'm the only one she knew. My gf insisted that the girl was into me, and during a particularly heated exchange, she jabbed me in the side of the head (the fourth time I've been punched in the last 6 mos).
> 
> I lost it, cussed her out and said we're done. When we got to her house she wouldn't get out of my car so I agreed to come inside. We made up but after she fell asleep I kept thinking about all the problems we have and the fact that she hit me again and decided it just wasn't going to work.
> 
> I left in the morning before she woke up and sent a text explaining things. A pretty ********* move I've never done before, but I knew it was the only way it was going to end without drama or getting punched again.
> 
> So I'm officially single again... feels weird. What's worse is that I still love her and I already miss her.


Can't say I'm surprised at all.

You're supposed to just "trust her"

But, your friends must have pristine boundaries with you.

What was her childhood like?


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## tacoma

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> My relationship imploded Friday night. I told her earlier in the day I was going to go running with a female co-worker after work. I figured that if she was going to lunches and geocaching with a guy, she shouldn't mind me going running with a girl.
> 
> She wasn't happy about it and said she wanted to meet her first, which was fair, I met her guy friend before they started hanging out all the time. So I arranged a night out together with her male friend and my female friend. I held out a little hope they might even like each other.
> 
> Absolute disaster. My friend thought her friend was pretty cool, but her friend thought she was too into me. My gf didn't like that she hugged me (she always hugs guys she knows) and most of her conversation was directed at me through the night. I tried to explain that she was talking to the only person at the table she knew. My gf was irritated that I was "defending" her. At some point my gf went to the bathroom and my friend moved between me and her guy friend to show us some pics on her phone. She told me to move a seat over and I did, and then I realized the seating might upset my gf so I moved an additional seat over. Sure enough, my gf was pissed when she saw we had moved, even though I kept an empty seat between us. She also said she felt like my friend was ignoring her. I spent the whole night trying to get everyone to interact with everyone.
> 
> We went dancing for a few minutes (read: I can't dance) and my friend and her friend were grinding pretty good, but at some point my friend sent me a text that she wanted to dance with me (bad move). My gf saw the text and was livid and said I'm not to hang out with her unless I wanna break up.
> 
> The mood of the night was totally poisoned and my friend left (oddly, she was oblivious to anyone having a problem - and thought we were having fun; her mood was messed up by some texts she was getting from her ex boyfriend; she got quiet for awhile and decided to head out). My gf and I left a little while later. On the way to the car I got chewed out for not respecting her feelings. The argument continued in the car on the way home as I was explaining that my friend was probably just talking to me because I'm the only one she knew. My gf insisted that the girl was into me, and during a particularly heated exchange, she jabbed me in the side of the head (the fourth time I've been punched in the last 6 mos).
> 
> I lost it, cussed her out and said we're done. When we got to her house she wouldn't get out of my car so I agreed to come inside. We made up but after she fell asleep I kept thinking about all the problems we have and the fact that she hit me again and decided it just wasn't going to work.
> 
> I left in the morning before she woke up and sent a text explaining things. A pretty ********* move I've never done before, but I knew it was the only way it was going to end without drama or getting punched again.
> 
> So I'm officially single again... feels weird. What's worse is that I still love her and I already miss her.


Dvls, I know you`re into her pretty deep but I also know you see this the way I`m seeing this.

This is a serious double standard and I actually love the way you brought it out.

The hitting is also a deal breaker.

It just sucks soooo bad when they`re "almost" perfect but the imperfections aren`t ones that can be lived with man.

You should move on.

Has she contacted you at all since that last text you sent?


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## The Middleman

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> My relationship imploded Friday night ....
> 
> We made up but after she fell asleep I kept thinking about all the problems we have and the fact that she hit me again and decided it just wasn't going to work.
> 
> I left in the morning before she woke up and sent a text explaining things. A pretty ********* move I've never done before, but I knew it was the only way it was going to end without drama or getting punched again.
> 
> So I'm officially single again... feels weird. What's worse is that I still love her and I already miss her.


You know what? I have a feeling you are going to be much better off without her. In fact, I think you should be thankful that this happened while you are single and not married with children. Two things lead me to say this: (1) The hitting is something that is only going to get worse. She has severe anger issues if she is raising her hands. You don't want to be dealing with that bull crap. (2) The fact that she wont get rid of the "guy friend" is huge problem in my eyes. One so big that that I'm willing to bet you couldn't live with if you two got married. I come form the school of thought that says you really can't have close friends of the opposite sex.

The hurting will stop in a few weeks and then you can move on. View this as a blessing and go with your gut, it's usually right.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Lon said:


> Wouldn't it just have been better to just stick with your boundary like we all suggested?


I don't know, there is no answer to being called controlling, insecure or jealous. I tried. She talked about seeing the guy less, but would go on to spend even more time with him.

The only way to really get across how her behavior made me feel and actually get her to change it rather than just talk about changing it was for her to experience my point of view.

And the thing is, the friend I invited out is a girl who I work with and who has dated my best friend... two lines I would never cross.

Either way, we broke up, so I guess it doesn't matter whether I enforced the boundary by breaking up with her, or showed her how it feels... the end result was the same.


----------



## Lon

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't know, there is no answer to being called controlling, insecure or jealous. I tried. She talked about seeing the guy less, but would go on to spend even more time with him.
> 
> *The only way to really get across how her behavior made me feel and actually get her to change it rather than just talk about changing it was for her to experience my point of view*.
> 
> And the thing is, the friend I invited out is a girl who I work with and who has dated my best friend... two lines I would never cross.
> 
> Either way, we broke up, so I guess it doesn't matter whether I enforced the boundary by breaking up with her, or showed her how it feels... the end result was the same.


That just means she wasn't the one for you - you CAN'T change others they have to do it themselves, and you expressed your feelings to her about this, all you can do is ask her to listen because trying to pound it in with a sledgehammer (as you just did) only makes everyone angry. The end result may actually be different (ie not just that this one ended, but how you have learned to enforce your boundaries in the next one).

But like you said, she said she would see him less but actually saw him more. Actions speak louder than words.

I'm sorry, I take no pleasure in seeing relationships end, but I will say that it is better to get to decide sooner rather than later about issues that will become dealbreakers. The worse thing would have been for you to let this slide and compromise your boundary, then invest more and more time with someone who you know takes no exception to consoling with other men outside of your relationship.


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## DvlsAdvc8

lovelygirl said:


> Just because you were the only one she knew doesn't mean she had to ignore the rest of the table, especially your gf.


She didn't talk to my gf much, but she talked to her guy friend plenty, even danced with him.



lovelygirl said:


> Also, the text message she sent you saying she wanted to dance with you made her look like she was telling you something in secrecy. Very lame.
> And I can tell she might be a bit selfish.


I agree, I thought it was inappropriate and she apologized for it the next day after I told her about the breakup. She said it was really a joke since she knows I can't/don't dance. It looked bad and I acknowledged that to my gf. I had no intention of dancing with her.

All the guys at work are engineering types. She's always trying to get us to dance when we go out as a group. None of us can, and that's the joke... she laughs her ass off when someone tries.



lovelygirl said:


> Hopefully she learned the lesson and you get back together.
> I have a feeling your break up won't last for long.


Oh the odds of that went way down after this weekend. I had my kids this weekend and took them out of town to the zoo. I intentionally left my phone at home so as not to be tempted to get into anything and sour my mood while I was with them.

Sunday she hooked up with one of the guys I was concerned about a couple weeks ago after I caught them sitting alone together at the bar on what was supposed to be "girls night out". She still claims that was innocent, but regardless it sure looks bad now.


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## DvlsAdvc8

tacoma said:


> Has she contacted you at all since that last text you sent?


Yeah, we text occassionally. I went from a life too boring to a life too interesting.

This guy she works with broke up with his gf on suspicion she was cheating on him... we'll call him Lee (not his real name). Right after their breakup, I found Lee and my gf sitting alone at the bar on what was sold to me as a "girls night out". My gf claims it changed and wasn't something intentional.

Wanting more information about Lee, I contacted his ex, who also works with him and my gf. I determined he wasn't much of a threat and decided to trust my gf on the nature of the outing.

After we broke up the other day she hooked up with Lee. She claims she wasn't into him back when I caught her with him, and that he was just the guy that was around when she wanted to get with someone to feel better about herself after I broke up with her.

So then Lee's Ex contacts me and wants to know why me and my gf broke up. I lay it out for her, and she tells me that Lee and my ex-gf hooked up. I said it would be funny if we went on a date now that they're together.

In the end my ex-gf asked me not to see someone she works with and make things bad for her at work, so I conceded. The motivation for Lee's ex and I would probably be just to get back at our exes since we don't really know each other anyway.

So bottom line is that everything is a soap opera and I'm thinking its just time to get out.


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## lovelygirl

wow! So she broke up with you and it was THAT easy for her to hook up with someone else???
So she had no problem moving on, right? 

Then you should do the same.

And now that your single IT'S NOT HER PLACE TO ASK YOU NOT TO DATE LEE's EX. Oh irony! 
According to her, she can hook up wth whoever she wants but you don't have the right to do that? 

Give me a break!!


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## DvlsAdvc8

Yeah, but I don't need to do all that. Its time to act my age and just move on.


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## lovelygirl

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Yeah, but I don't need to do all that. Its time to act my age and just move on.


Yeah sure. Obviously you won't play the same childish games as she did. 
You're not like her.


----------



## Dollystanford

dude! she hit you - big no no for a start

this all sounds so unbelievably childish and dramatic to me - she sounds like an absolute nightmare!!!

I told you a few pages back to get rid and get a grown up - now you see, listen to Dolly it's always best in the end


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## Entropy3000

Dollystanford said:


> dude! she hit you - big no no for a start
> 
> this all sounds so unbelievably childish and dramatic to me - she sounds like an absolute nightmare!!!
> 
> I told you a few pages back to get rid and get a grown up - *now you see, listen to Dolly it's always best in the end *


Awesome. :rofl:


----------



## tacoma

Entropy3000 said:


> Awesome. :rofl:


Why was the same exact sentence bolded in my head while reading it?


----------



## Entropy3000

tacoma said:


> Why was the same exact sentence bolded in my head while reading it?


She's a bit of alright.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Why'd LovelyGirl get banned?


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## Entropy3000

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Why'd LovelyGirl get banned?


Oh my. Idunno. Maybe some PMs. She was being attacked on a thread she started.

One of her threads is gone. It started nasty.


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## Lon

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Why'd LovelyGirl get banned?


what?!


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## Entropy3000

Her last thread is gone.


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## lovelygirl

I'm here again. Thanx for asking 

Back on topic. Anything new with your now ex gf DvlsAdvc8?
You got back together?


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## lovelygirl

I'm here again. Thanx for asking 

Back on topic. Anything new with your now ex gf DvlsAdvc8?
You got back together?


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## Kylie84

Just wondering if Vaflower ended up going on the GNO? lol


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## Q tip

Did Vaflower get agreeable terms with her D...?


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## Coffee Amore

The original poster hasn't been on TAM for two years. Zombie thread closed.


----------

