# Driving myself crazy!



## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Hi everyone, I’m driving myself crazy with a current situation that is going on between my wife and I. I am trying not to overreact and could use some guidance. I’ve tried to keep it short but there is a lot of info…

*The condensed story:*

My wife (35) and I (42) have been together for 12.5 years, married for 8, no kids. We are very close and tend to discuss everything happening in our lives no matter how small. We are on the East Coast.

- My wife went on a 5 day business retreat (Sunday-Friday) with some coworkers and there were several other businesses attending as well. She’s in upper management.

- After the first day she talked about how it was a party atmosphere and a lot of the workshops gave out drink tickets as prizes.

- As the days progressed she was in contact more sporadically and I never received a call or text when she was in her room going to bed.

- Early on in the trip she called and was complaining that her work phone wasn’t sending or receiving text messages to/from some people and if I had any tips (I used to be in IT). I don’t ever recall her using her work phone for texting on any regular basis.

- When we did speak she spoke about meeting some people (some men, some women) and gave me some brief info about them.

- She talked about the various dinner plans they had and that some of her coworkers and people from other groups were going with her. In general, I never really got a start-to-finish timeline of what she was doing (out of character) and I could tell she was being purposely vague about some of the events and who was there. I didn’t like feeling out of the loop, but I didn’t want to start probing and sounding like I was being overbearing. I figured she would fill me in when she got home.

- Once she was home I really wasn’t getting much more info on specifics but she did mention that it felt like being in college and that she did a lot of drinking, wasn’t in her room before 1 am and one night she was out until 3 am and got sick. After the dinners there was a bonfire that people attended and they all hung out and talked about work issues as well as personal things.

- I told her that I didn’t like feeling left out and she said that it was no big deal and that she met people that she thought would be good business contacts.

- At that point I pretty much could tell she was hanging out with some men and that is why I’m getting the vague details.

- The next day it was really bothering me and and I told her that I felt hurt that she wasn’t sharing more and that it seemed way out of character. She said that the majority of attendees where men and that she didn’t want me to feel uncomfortable. I said that based on the party atmosphere I would probably have had some concerns but not as many as feeling like she was keeping things from me. She asked if i wanted to know, I said yes, and she told me all about the people (mostly men) that she was with. She said there was definitely some slime-balls there but she steered clear of them and she felt like she ended up hanging out with a good group of people.

- Three people stood out to me as the ones she spent the most time with: ‘Fred’, ‘Barney’, and ‘Dino’.

- ‘Dino’ lives near us and has similar interests in the arts. I can’t remember his other stats.

- ‘Fred’ and ‘Barney’ are from the same company and are from the Northwest coast. Both are married with kids and share a mutual interest in craft beer like my wife and I. She also knew what kind of music they listen too and other various personal info. 'Fred' is possibly in his late 40's mid 50's.

- She brought me back a shirt from a local brewery and said that ‘Fred’ had asked her to get him one too when she was there and that he had overpaid her.

- I was generally satisfied at that point and felt better but I checked her phones, emails, texts to be safe.

*Findings and observations:* (I have all her passwords and access to her cell phones and she has mine):

- There where several failed to send texts to co-workers, ‘Fred’ and ‘Dino’ trying to coordinate dinner plans for everyone that matched the places she told me they had gone.

- There is a failed to send text to ‘Fred’ that says ‘Whats up?’ at 10:40pm on Thursday and she attempted to send it again twice since she has been home. All failed.

- There were several phone calls to 'Fred' and 'Dino' around 6:00 pm lasting between 30 secs and 1 min.

- Her internet browser history on her work phone had a lot of youtube videos of Jimmy Buffet. She mentioned 'Fred' liked JB.

- She sent professional follow-up emails to all the people she met that she thought would be good contacts. (She informed me of this and was accurate in describing their contents).

- She sent a professional/personal email to ‘Dino’ and mentioned that she and I would be interested in seeing an art exhibit he runs. (She informed me of this and everything in this email seemed appropriate to me.)

- She sent a professional/personal email to ‘Fred’ & ‘Barney’. On the personal side she told them she forgot to tell them about a trip she had taken to their area of the country and described some of the details. She asked them to not be strangers since ‘there is so much more to talk about’. (she informed me of the general content of this email)

- ‘Fred’ responded to her and copied ‘Barney’ with a very short email saying how they enjoyed meeting her, commented on her trip that she had explained and that they would be in touch regarding some possible business topics. It was definitely business polite with no real open doors for further immediate conversation.

- My wife responded to ‘Fred’ only. She mentioned she would be on the south west coast in a few weeks and that she felt bad that he had given her too much money as reimbursement for the brewery shirt. She rattled off an impressive list of breweries she might be visiting and that she would like to send him a shirt from one of his choice. She also sent him a link to a youtube video that her sister had shared with her about hiding beers for easter. (I have not seen her since she sent this this morning and ‘Fred’ hasn’t responded yet).

- She is definitely checking her work phone more than usual.

*Immediate Concerns:*

1. My gut is telling me something is not right here. My gut is usually 99% right but i don’t know what the real issue is here.

2. She is meeting with IT on Friday to get her text messaging fixed on her work phone (she hasn’t mentioned this to me yet, but I assume she will). On the other hand, she has been complaining for 4 months that she can’t work from home because her remote access isn’t working but hasn’t bothered to contact IT. Why the urgency? Especially when she has attempted to resend the same text to ‘Fred’ since her return.

3. When I was waiting to see her response to ‘Fred’s’ email I told myself that I would consider it a red flag if she responded only to him and also if she mentioned her upcoming trip to the west coast. She checked both those boxes, plus added a few I hadn’t thought of.

4. I think it’s probable she will mention offering to buy a shirt for him, but even if she does I feel that offering to by another shirt seems desperate/trying to hard to impress. Maybe I’m off base on this.

I'm hoping that her initial reluctance to tell me just has me paranoid. Any thoughts would surely help.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

My hats off to you. You are very tech-savvy and very protective of your wife.

The Fred thing. Yes, she is trying hard to "friend" him. 

This might be for business reasons. He may be a good sales prospect. He may be able to further her career. If he is a well known person in her sphere of business, he will be a good "networking" ally and mentor .

Or, it could be a strictly personal interest. She really likes the guy. Red Flag: the beginnings of an EA [emotional affair].

Too early to tell. Keep vigilant [secretly]. You are doing well.

Oh, stop confronting her, keep silent, let her direct your investigation. You do not want to spook her. She will then take this underground.

An innocent women will get annoyed at you if she catches your snooping. A guilty women will change tactics to avoid detection. Protect yourself and your marriage. Keep snooping. 

Trips away from home are hard on a marriage. They invite trouble.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I agree - a few red flags. Might find Fred attractive or interesting. Doesn't sound like anything has happened but she might have a bit of a crush. I'd keep an eye out, step up your game a bit - maybe suggest a phone-free weekend and go somewhere to rekindle (she doesn't have to know why). See how she reacts to the concept of a phone free weekend. Gauge her reactions accordingly.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Here is a list of common red flags, while many do not apply so do. 

Red flags*

Sex life dropped off noticeably
Passwords on phone and computer
Much more time on line...fakebook.
More GNOs...staying out later.
Less eye contact and holding hands...much less physical contact.
Less communication.
Staying up late on computer.
Dressing more provocative
More shopping-spending...clothes.
3 hour groceries shopping trips
Gasoline use and mileage went up
Generally disconnected from family.
New friends that I wasn't introduced to
Cell/text usage went up...way up.
New hair style and attention to makeup
Started exercising more.
Secretive about whereabouts during contact
She would become annoyed easily with me.
Household responsibilities dropped way off.
ecame more forgetful in general
A noticable distancing from her family.
Much more waxing...trimming...shaving....not for me.

Read @PhillyGuy13 thread. He dealt with something very similar.


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

JohnA said:


> Here is a list of common red flags, while many do not apply so do.


Thanks, the only thing that fits is that she spoke to friend of hers that is doing yoga and know says she wants to start exercising and she did a yoga dvd one night. She's naturally fit and muscular so there isn't much need for improvement.

Oddly, ever since she's been back she's telling me how good I look, how sexy I am, how much she enjoyed her first night back with me, blowing kisses. I am appreciative but it's out of character.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Hi 

Here is a link for you http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/145866-wifes-texts-while-she-road.html


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> My hats off to you. You are very tech-savvy and very protective of your wife.
> 
> The Fred thing. Yes, she is trying hard to "friend" him.
> 
> ...


Yep, no plans to mention anything or confront her, she thinks it has blown over and in her defense she seems to be keeping me in the loop on what she is doing.

'Fred' is someone that would be a good contact to have but he serves no immediate benefit (this has nothing to do with sales) other than general networking.

A small twist to the story in regards to "Going Underground": Six years ago my wife met a much younger IT person at her work which was trying to get her to go out for drinks. She asked if I wanted to go, I said that I didn't think I was interested but she could go if she wanted, she didn't. Then he wanted her to go to his birthday toga party, she asked if I wanted to go, I said I don't think that's my scene but she should go if she wanted. She gave me the full-court press about going which annoyed me and I asked why all of a sudden this guy shows up and is asking her to do things. She was annoyed but we dropped it and she didn't go.

After there was occasional texting between them that I saw only when the notification popped up on the screen when it was near me and it was nothing concerning. I wasn't snooping at that point. Then the cell bill comes in a bit higher and when I saw the amount of texts I compared it to her phone and there was approx 8 deleted out of 20 maybe. She dodged and weaved and said they were nothing but banter and didn't want me to overreact. I told her I thought it was strange behavior but she stood her ground and defended it as just a friendship and that it was me with the issue. Not satisfied I found that they had lunch together which she failed to tell me and again played it down as I was overreacting. At that point I made it very clear that this was not acceptable to me and it took maybe a week of talking before she even began to see my point of view (Ironically, if the roles were reversed she would have never stood for it). She apologized that it upset me but never really admitted that her actions were causing me distress.

A couple days later he Facebook messaged her at 1 am asking if she was up (she wasn't and I saw it the next morning). I said at that point that this is completely unacceptable and there was no way this guy should be sending her messages at that hour. She agreed and sent him a message that she needed to end the friendship because I wasn't comfortable with it. He responded Ok and that it wasn't the first time this had happened to him. About a month later we discussed it again and she said in hindsight that she thought it was weird he was inviting her places and that she had come to the realization that he may of had a crush on her. I thought to myself "No sh..".

So Im sure this experience has me on hypersensitive mode.....


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I agree - a few red flags. Might find Fred attractive or interesting. Doesn't sound like anything has happened but she might have a bit of a crush. I'd keep an eye out, step up your game a bit - maybe suggest a phone-free weekend and go somewhere to rekindle (she doesn't have to know why). See how she reacts to the concept of a phone free weekend. Gauge her reactions accordingly.


Yes, I don't think anything has happened, but possibly a crush.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

No disrespect intended, but if I didn't know you were her husband, I'd think you were her dad. Like this sounds like a dad keeping tabs on his boy crazy teenage daughter or something. I'd suggest to relax a bit.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

What kind of phone does she have? Odd that she is having problems texting, that sounds
more of a network/traffic issue than a IT issue but maybe some companies disable texts on the phone...?

She definitely enjoys his company but I doubt it's anything romantic - yet. But there is a growing attachment there and that's the danger.

My biggest concern was my wife refusing to cut him off cold turkey once she got home and I confronted her. Got the "we are just friends", "I need to trust her" clap-trap. If you are uncomfortable, end of discussion. She needs to respect that and you need to stay firm on this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Danny,

Another sign, less obvious, is that your W becomes more sexual with YOU, essentially the attraction she feels for the OM is vented on you. You mentioned that she seems to notice you more now. She might also become more willing to do new things.

When my W was involved with OM-2 she spontaneously started getting an orgasm from PIV. Entirely out of character I might add.

Tamat


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> If you are uncomfortable, end of discussion. She needs to respect that and you need to stay firm on this point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I agree with this. To be clear I only told her that I was marginally uncomfortable with her hanging out with them since there was so much alcohol involved and I haven't said that she cannot contact anyone. My main issue was the change in her behavior in relation to us naturally discussing what we do each day. We are both very analytical so we enjoy talking about things that happen to us. She herself apologized that it appeared 'shady'.

Recently I worked at an org that was all women and 2 men including myself. She was uncomfortable with this at times and said that she didn't like that she felt jealous. I certainly didn't turn it around on her and tell her too bad, or hide my interactions with my co-workers. I did everything I could to keep her in the loop and made sure she knew everything that was going on so there was no doubt things were legit.


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> No disrespect intended, but if I didn't know you were her husband, I'd think you were her dad. Like this sounds like a dad keeping tabs on his boy crazy teenage daughter or something. I'd suggest to relax a bit.


None taken, and I can see your point of view.


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

TAMAT said:


> Danny,
> 
> Another sign, less obvious, is that your W becomes more sexual with YOU, essentially the attraction she feels for the OM is vented on you.


Yes, this has crossed my mind.


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> This thread is like chum in the water, off the coast of the Farallon Islands.


Do I need a bigger boat??


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

She knew the contact was bordering on inappropriate. Thus the lack of details. The free drinks were flowing, everybody getting drunk, I am positive flirting abounded. I see it in my job to this day. And age doesn't matter. These corporate meetings quickly devolve into MTV Spring Break '95.

To be clear, beyond getting drunk at a work function, I don't think your wife did anything inappropriate specifically with this guy or any of them. But she definitely did bond with this guy and is eager to remain in contact with him. And at that point I would be uncomfortable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Quick update:

In the latest email exchange 'Fred' asked how far a town was from where she was and that one of his local breweries is opening up a brewery there. She responded that she hadn't been there since she moved here and that she has been wanting to go to a summer concert series there but maybe she would wait 3 years till the brewery opens...wth. She and I were supposed to go there for some business and a quick getaway last year but the weather was too bad, but we've been talking about going back. First I've heard of a summer concert series.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She's at the age where she's feeding off the excitement of 'playful banter' - it makes her feel good. IIWY, I'd have a talk about THAT. Not about this guy or that guy. Skip that (and looking super-jealous) and instead focus on what she's getting out of life and what the TWO of you could be doing so that she can be living a fulfilled - but monogamous - life.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Danny Noonan said:


> Quick update:
> 
> In the latest email exchange 'Fred' asked how far a town was from where she was and that one of his local breweries is opening up a brewery there. She responded that she hadn't been there since she moved here and that she has been wanting to go to a summer concert series there but maybe she would wait 3 years till the brewery opens...wth. She and I were supposed to go there for some business and a quick getaway last year but the weather was too bad, but we've been talking about going back. First I've heard of a summer concert series.


Wtf!! She's making it sound like she's not married!!
Was she wearing her wedding rings when she met this flintstone?
Any pics of her from that time that you can check?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Tobyboy said:


> Wtf!! She's making it sound like she's not married!!
> Was she wearing her wedding rings when she met this flintstone?
> Any pics of her from that time that you can check?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure he knows she's married.


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Another Update:

So her work phone not sending texts was fixed yesterday (didn't have a text plan linked to it). She only texted 'Fred' telling him 'Yay, IT fixed my phone'. He responded that he was thinking about sending something to her to see if it was working. She responded with a joke about the area that the retreat was held at and then sent another text asking if he understood what IT had told her the issue was. He didn't respond. I may be crazy, but to me she is advertising that he can start texting her.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Danny Noonan said:


> Another Update:
> 
> So her work phone not sending texts was fixed yesterday (didn't have a text plan linked to it). She only texted 'Fred' telling him 'Yay, IT fixed my phone'. He responded that he was thinking about sending something to her to see if it was working. She responded with a joke about the area that the retreat was held at and then sent another text asking if he understood what IT had told her the issue was. He didn't respond. I may be crazy, but to me she is advertising that he can start texting her.


Wow! Your wife really likes this guy! 
And no...your not crazy. I would not say a word and keep watching. Things are escalating fast here. Fred must have made quite an impression on your wife!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Forgot to ask, what was joke she text him? Was it rated G, PG, or R?
This matters cuz she's really "opening doors" for him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Tobyboy said:


> Forgot to ask, what was joke she text him? Was it rated G, PG, or R?
> This matters cuz she's really "opening doors" for him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No totally PG.


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

turnera said:


> She's at the age where she's feeding off the excitement of 'playful banter' - it makes her feel good. IIWY, I'd have a talk about THAT. Not about this guy or that guy. Skip that (and looking super-jealous) and instead focus on what she's getting out of life and what the TWO of you could be doing so that she can be living a fulfilled - but monogamous - life.


She says other than stresses at work everything is just peachy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, trust me, this is something the person isn't aware of. It's inner stuff. Like subconsciously counting down the calendar, adding up how many years you have left, what looks do you have left, can you still get a guy...stuff like that.


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

turnera said:


> Oh, trust me, this is something the person isn't aware of. It's inner stuff. Like subconsciously counting down the calendar, adding up how many years you have left, what looks do you have left, can you still get a guy...stuff like that.


Ya, I get you...


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

If this were a woman telling this story, people would be much harsher on her husband. But, it seems that people have softer comments when it's a woman who is playing with fire. Interesting. 

I don't know if your wife is interested in pursuing this man, but she is definitely flirting. I think you should say you know, and you don't appreciate it.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Good advice you're getting. Sounds like the gentle rumblings of an approaching storm on the horizon. 
Your days of having a password to her phone can be counted with two digits, most likely.

Wish I could say what I could suggest. Maybe working out and developing some new friendships of the opposite sex of your own. Probably a bad suggestion. But you need some confidence support and some IDGAF attitude involved to increase her worries about YOU.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

You sound like you have your Head on straight and been around TAM for a bit. If I were you I'd put my foot down hard. No ifs ands or buts. You have touched on the subject before in a nice guy sort of way. This time mean business bordering on caveman. You need to make sure you mean it. She's backed down before and she is now pushing the boundaries again. Squash it now


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Thing is, you can't force someone to change how they're feeling. The most you can do, is discuss how this makes you feel. But, you can't make demands on someone. What you can do is say...do you wish to be single again? If so, we can't be married and you act single, too. But, making demands, and such...if the actual root cause of her behavior is never addressed, it will happen with another 'Fred.'


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

I'd get pissed
And if she didn't stop I'd divorce her
She needs to know your boundaries and the consequences for crossing them. You caught this early. Use a sledge hammer. 

Then she can choose to change her behavior or not. It's up to her


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

Unfortunately you will need to keep monitoring her until you can trust her again


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Just watch. That phone will be attached to her hand from now on. 
It will be the first thing she checks in the morning and the last thing at night. 

Probably a simple "good morning" text on her way to work. From there it will snowball!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Froggi (Sep 10, 2014)

This is making me tired just reading. Instead of constantly monitoring a grown ass woman, and worrying that every single text or call or whatever means she's screwing some dude, why don't you just divorce her and move on? 

Why live with someone you don't trust, and whose phone has you wringing your hands in constant fear?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> If this were a woman telling this story, people would be much harsher on her husband. But, it seems that people have softer comments when it's a woman who is playing with fire. Interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It has nothing to do with gender... I've been lurking a while here and it's been my observation that some posters are obsessed with monitoring spouses and stories of cheating. Telling the OP to just keep spying on her is totally weird advice to me. Like they just want OP to sit tight and wait until he catches her doing worse. 

I agree with you though, he needs to be direct now. OP you need to sit your wife down and get to the bottom of this. Tell her you're not comfortable with her flirting with other men and get to the bottom of why she needs the extra attention. Don't buy any excuses from her. Take her to counseling if you need to. 

IMO, you married her when she was too young and she's missed out on her 20s. Now at 35, moving towards 40, she has realized she's missed out on partying/flirting with guys. Maybe you need to discuss that with her in a calm fashion. Maybe even set up a night where she can dress sexy and go to the bar, and you can pretend to be a stranger and "pick her up".


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> If this were a woman telling this story, people would be much harsher on her husband. But, it seems that *people have softer comments *when it's a woman who is playing with fire. Interesting.
> 
> I don't know if your wife is interested in pursuing this man, but she is definitely flirting. I think you should say you know, and you don't appreciate it.


People?

Does that include ConanHub and Bandit.45?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If he tells her [he knows] about Fred and their communications, he has lost his only means to monitor.

I agree, at some point he needs to confront. If he does not, it may go too far. Plus, the next meet-up place is far from home and will make it hard to monitor and control.

My opinion? Hold off for now.* True character is shown when you think no one is watching*. If he stops this budding friendship [EA?], will he be able to stop the next one? 

Trust, but verify..

Remember, this is the *second time * that his wife has overstepped normal marital boundaries. The first time *appeared*? minor. She played the naïve role for her husband with the young IT guy. 

What is her excuse, this time?

Tricky business, this. 

I disagree with the other posters who do not want to scare the poster or possibly alienate the spouse by keeping tabs on her. This is his wife and his life.

*How do you "sit down with your wife" and read her the riot act when you have nothing but [still weak] circumstantial evidence*?
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This advice may be premature but keep it in mind. This is standard monitoring action touted here at TAM. I cannot claim ownership of any of these ideas. TAM poster "Weightlifter" is the pro on this stuff.

I would put a VAR {voice activated recorder} in her car [velcroed in place under seat] and a second one at the place where she makes phone calls from, in your home. 

The one in your home: set it up and then tell your wife that you are going out of the house for a couple of hours. Find out what is said when you are not home. Maybe nothing, maybe something.

Too early to get paranoid.

You can buy these things for under $60. Buy at least two. Sony Digital Voice Recorder Model, ICDPX333 or better. Buy online, cost is a little less. 

Practice with the VAR's before you use them!!


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Well it's been a long 4 days.

I decided on Thursday that I couldn't put off addressing this. It was taking it's toll on me emotionally and physically.

Going into the discussion my only expectation was that she would acknowledge my concerns and out respect for our marriage she would say that there was no need for her to continue the personal communication with 'Fred'.

I told her that I am not accusing her of anything and that I believe her when she says there is nothing to worry about, however based on her initial reluctance to disclose details of her trip combined with the urgency to start texting and emailing one specific man she had met, I was still feeling uncomfortable and that if the situation was reversed I am sure she would be confused by the events as well. She repeated that there was nothing to worry about and then it took about 5 minutes of us rehashing for her to reluctantly admit that she would also feel uneasy if she were in my shoes, but she knows she did nothing wrong so it's not really relevant. We came to a standstill and both dug in and we went around in circles a few times. One thing that was frustrating me is that she kept saying that there was no significance to her communication with 'Fred' and that she has no expectations of what might come from it. He was just one of the the many people she had enjoyed talking to and was just following up with him. I said that obviously there is some significance and that she was actively trying to continue and grow the friendship through texting/email which I would have no problem with if she would just say that is what she is doing!!.

At one point she said that maybe she just doesn't know how to be friends with men and that she must be naive about interacting with them. I told her I had monitored her email and she had a about a 30 second mini-meltdown, but I reminded her that we have each others passwords and that when I was working with a bunch of females she was monitoring my interaction with them and I had no issue with it. We both agreed that we should go to counseling and she made an emphasis on me having to work out my trust issues. Finally we did one more round and it got more heated and she was basically daring me to tell her to stop communication.....so I did. She immediately said that she'll stop communicating when I make a counseling appointment for us. I told her I would make the appointment but in no way are we making that deal. It stops now.

She went to bed, I slept on the couch for 2 nights. We were cordial but avoided each other. On Saturday morning, we sat down and calmly started talking again and went over some of the details again. She was more sympathetic to my concerns and wasn't spending her time spewing excuses as to why her actions meant nothing.

At one point I brought up the clear signs that she was interested in a developing a friendship with 'Fred' and why she couldn't just say that so we could move on. Again I got he is just one of the people she met and all there interactions were with a large group of other people. I said that he was the only one she was texting at 10:45pm so obviously there was more interaction than just in a group. Asked if they spent any time alone together, perhaps at the end of the night around the bon-fire. She said no, but on the last night after the bon-fire they walked back to her room and she gave him the brewery shirt that he had asked her to buy earlier that day and he reimbursed her and they said good-bye including a hug. She confirmed that the door was closed and that he was in the room for no longer than 2 minutes (she initially said 5). I lost it. Told her that under no circumstances should a guy that she just met be in her room at 1am after they had been drinking. I said it was disrespectful to our marriage and there should be consequences. She remained adamant that she knew nothing happened so she didn't see anything wrong with it but could see how it might look bad or be bad judgement. She could see how hurt I was by this and changed her tune and switched to trying to console me and patch things up.

We had a house guest coming in so we reached a point were we both felt like we had expressed ourselves and knew that we probably weren't going to make much more progress until our counseling session the next week so we agreed to shelve it for a bit.

Guest left Sunday afternoon and we had a really good evening and talked a lot about our feelings for each other. It was very reassuring for me.

Monday morning she was grumpy, she came home for lunch and was grumpier (my gut starting talking to me 'Here we go, anytime now she's going to ask to start communicating with 'Fred'). She said it was just work. She came home from work and was grumpy and quiet, I asked her to tell me what was up, she said she didn't want to, I said please do. She said 1. She doesn't like being forbidden, 2. She has thought about what I said my concerns are and that it really is about how she and I communicate and really has nothing to do with 'Fred' having bad intentions so she doesn't see why we can't make a compromise on her communication with him. 'It seems rude' that she isn't responding to him. She suggested that maybe I could help her write the emails so that I could see everything was legit. To say I was speechless is an understatement. I told her that I have absolutely no interest in helping her write her emails to friends and that I found it beyond insensitive to be trying to negotiate when we haven't even resolved the overall issues and haven't started counseling which was only 2 days away. She didn't see it as insensitive but just logical based on what she sees are issue being. I said that there will be no compromise and eventually I left and went on a drive. When I came back she was more sympathetic however she started to talk about our upcoming counseling and was speaking in terms that we are both 50/50 to blame here (I openly admit I deserve some of the blame, but 50/50?) and that again I have trust issues. She wanted me to come to bed but I slept on the couch.

This morning she was friendly and she is going to come home early so we can fill out our paperwork for counseling so i imagine I will again encounter the narrative that I have trust issues and that's what we need to work on. My comment would be that the only times I have exhibited trust issues is when she has acted shady and out of character.

In general, I don't recognize this person that I married.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Way too much talking in response to her trickle truth to you.

"Wife, I will not remain married to someone who pursues opposite-sex friends with people I am not comfortable with."

She is wearing your boundaries down through all of the constant chatter. Stop freaking negotiating.

Every time she gives you a BS reason to continue contact, you make one statement.

"I am not okay with you contacting him in any way shape or form."

ETA: are you buying her story at this point? I'm not.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Way too much talking in response to her trickle truth to you.
> 
> "Wife, I will not remain married to someone who pursues opposite-sex friends with people I am not comfortable with."
> 
> ...


BAM!

QFT!!

After the OP's last post, I was all fired up to say pretty much what was posted here.

You can't force some one to do something. You can decide what you will *allow*


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Danny Noonan said:


> ..she kept saying that there was no significance to her communication with 'Fred' and that she has no expectations of what might come from it...


I've always gotten a kick out of this self set trap...no significance, no big deal, not important...then it should be able to be dropped without a second thought, and the second it is defended, the trap is sprung, and the lie is revealed.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

I wonder how much longer before you get one of these lines:

1. I haven't been happy for a while. 

2. We have grown apart. 

3. I don't know how I feel about our marriage anymore. 

4. It's not you, it's me. 

5. I need to find myself. 

6. I love you but I'm not IN love with you. 

7. I don't like to be controlled!!!!( I think you got some version of this already)

Anyway, I'm not buying her story. There's a reason she hasn't been forthcoming about the events from those nights!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

@Danny Noonan Any updates? How did the counseling go?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Danny Noonan, you should try this:-

"Hey, Dear! I have had an idea! I think that I should like to start texting to Fred's wife, Wilma! How would that work?"

If the answer is: "Hell, no!" Ask her why not?

And if the answer is: "There is no Wilma Flintstone" 

Your response should be: "So, your developing relationship with a single man? How about if I decided to develop a relationship with a single woman?"


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> @Danny Noonan Any updates? How did the counseling go?


We've had 2 group, 1 with me, and my wife had 1 with her old therapist. No progress other than my wife has realized that she is not connected with her feelings and can't express herself. This is something she had worked through previously before we met. Also, it is evident she isn't keen on our therapist. Some of it has to do with the speed the therapist is working at, and I suspect it is also because she expected the sessions to be about my trust issues/snooping and that hasn't been the case at all. The spotlight has been fully pointed at her. So now I expect things will slow down even more as she tries to reconnect with her emotions. I am willing to wait, but in the meantime I have started exploring my options if I need to get out. She has displayed a rather painful lack of concern for my feelings. More to come later.....

I will reiterate what others have said on this forum: try not to reveal any investigation/snooping that you've done. My wife has latched onto that and it has enabled her to deflect from the core issues and act as if she is the victim.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

meh

When she tries to do that, you just shrug and say 'If you weren't doing something to warrant me looking, we wouldn't be having this discussion.' 

And rinse and repeat every time.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Your wife is a grown woman. She's knows right from wrong, if she didn't, she would have told you everything about the events of her last night of the bon fire, which I'm sure there's more than what she's told you. 

Has she stopped communications with Fred?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

" Told her that under no circumstances should a guy that she just met be in her room at 1am after they had been drinking."

I'd pretty much say NO guy, except for you , in the room alone with her at anytime, especially 1am after drinks. I hate to say it, and hope I'm wrong,but I think you got the "made for TV" version of that story.


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Tobyboy said:


> Your wife is a grown woman. She's knows right from wrong, if she didn't, she would have told you everything about the events of her last night of the bon fire, which I'm sure there's more than what she's told you.
> 
> Has she stopped communications with Fred?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Communication has stopped as far as I can tell, including scanning her phones for deleted messages.

The biggest issue now is her defensiveness and playing the victim. There have been a few times over the past weeks where I have been triggered to ask her to clarify a few things including something that happened last week and she immediately shuts down, gets defensive and then acts annoyed that I am rocking the boat. I even got the 'are you sure you're not paranoid?' comment. As far as I'm concerned the burden is on her to ease my concerns since she is the one who has the history of lying/deception. I have zero evidence of anything going on but things sure as hell haven't been normal. The reactions don't add up to me for someone who is completely innocent/transparent, but that could just be the fog from the lying 6 years ago clouding my perceptions. When she was concerned about my working/communicating with a bunch of women a while ago, my reaction was to soothe, comfort, offer full transparency because absolutely nothing was going on and the last thing I wanted was for her to feel that way.

And to top it all off, just when I'm starting to feel comfortable and we had a great day together yesterday (she had come back from being out of town), this morning it hit me out of the blue that she contradicted herself about being at a store at a specific time during her recent trip (this is a different trip from the one in my opening post). She says that she and her friend got home at 2:00 am after being out because they had to go to store A to pick up something (the item was picked up) and then goes on to say how the store was strange since it sold items that she didn't think they sold. I commented I was surprised the store was open that late and she said it was open 24hrs. The next day she's telling me more about that day and places herself at Store A earlier in the evening. I confronted her this morning about the discrepancy and she says she remembers saying she was at Store B at 2:00 am (that store is open 24 hours and there is a bank transaction for that store on that day) and that she probably just misspoke. She said she was at Store A earlier but they didn't have what they were looking for. I said she may have misspoke (she does commonly transpose words when she speaks) but why all the detail about Store A if she was thinking about Store B??? This is when she went into defensive mode and the paranoid comment and said she was sad that this is the point our relationship is at. This may be nothing but it sure doesn't help to un-muddy the waters....


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Danny Noonan said:


> Communication has stopped as far as I can tell, including scanning her phones for deleted messages.
> 
> The biggest issue now is her defensiveness and playing the victim. There have been a few times over the past weeks where I have been triggered to ask her to clarify a few things including something that happened last week and she immediately shuts down, gets defensive and then acts annoyed that I am rocking the boat. I even got the 'are you sure you're not paranoid?' comment. As far as I'm concerned the burden is on her to ease my concerns since she is the one who has the history of lying/deception. I have zero evidence of anything going on but things sure as hell haven't been normal. The reactions don't add up to me for someone who is completely innocent/transparent, but that could just be the fog from the lying 6 years ago clouding my perceptions. When she was concerned about my working/communicating with a bunch of women a while ago, my reaction was to soothe, comfort, offer full transparency because absolutely nothing was going on and the last thing I wanted was for her to feel that way.
> 
> And to top it all off, just when I'm starting to feel comfortable and we had a great day together yesterday (she had come back from being out of town), this morning it hit me out of the blue that she contradicted herself about being at a store at a specific time during her recent trip (this is a different trip from the one in my opening post). She says that she and her friend got home at 2:00 am after being out because they had to go to store A to pick up something (the item was picked up) and then goes on to say how the store was strange since it sold items that she didn't think they sold. I commented I was surprised the store was open that late and she said it was open 24hrs. The next day she's telling me more about that day and places herself at Store A earlier in the evening. I confronted her this morning about the discrepancy and she says she remembers saying she was at Store B at 2:00 am (that store is open 24 hours and there is a bank transaction for that store on that day) and that she probably just misspoke. She said she was at Store A earlier but they didn't have what they were looking for. I said she may have misspoke (she does commonly transpose words when she speaks) but why all the detail about Store A if she was thinking about Store B??? This is when she went into defensive mode and the paranoid comment and said she was sad that this is the point our relationship is at. This may be nothing but it sure doesn't help to un-muddy the waters....


She's obviously hiding something. If you really want to know what's happening, a VAR in her car can get you those answers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yep. Time to start snooping.


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Been snooping the whole time....VAR isn't going to work, walks to work, rarely in our car without me. Plus no suspicious phone records of calls/texts and calls/texts have not not been deleted from her work phone. Facebook is clean, internet history is clean with no deletions, no other social sites/apps in use. Still driving myself crazy though......


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

*then goes on to say how the store was strange since it sold items that she didn't think they sold.
*

Sometimes the "devil is in the details"!!!

What items was she referring to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Danny Noonan said:


> Been snooping the whole time....VAR isn't going to work, walks to work, rarely in our car without me. Plus no suspicious phone records of calls/texts and calls/texts have not not been deleted from her work phone. Facebook is clean, internet history is clean with no deletions, no other social sites/apps in use. Still driving myself crazy though......


A var at home may find info from simply her talking to friends relatives.

A functioning pen var in her purse can get info when she is not with you. Available at amazon and brickhouse security.

From what you have said, there is little doubt she is deceptive but not particularly good at it.

How often is she traveling for work? Why would someone be out shopping on a work trip at 2 am?


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Tobyboy said:


> *then goes on to say how the store was strange since it sold items that she didn't think they sold.
> *
> 
> Sometimes the "devil is in the details"!!!
> ...


Ha,ha, I wish. Produce. The 'devil in the details' is that she places herself in a liquor store in the same shopping center during her trip. I haven't asked when she was there but it most likely would have had to of been at the same time she was at Store A (approx 9-10 pm). Says she went in because she was just curious about their beer selection (we used to buy beer there when we lived there) but didn't buy anything. Could be legit, but it was a long night spanning from 5:30pm to 2:30am and supposedly consisted of 1 brewery (confirmed) and 2 bars (1 confirmed).


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Tobyboy said:


> *then goes on to say how the store was strange since it sold items that she didn't think they sold.
> *
> 
> Sometimes the "devil is in the details"!!!
> ...





Chaparral said:


> A var at home may find info from simply her talking to friends relatives.
> 
> A functioning pen var in her purse can get info when she is not with you. Available at amazon and brickhouse security.
> 
> ...


She needed something for her trip home the following day. This was a half work/half visit our old town trip and she was staying with her married friend that I know. Doesn't travel much, both her trainings just happened to be within a 5 week period.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Danny, do feel you have all the details of those nights of her training? 
Is your wife a hugger?
Are you still buying the latenight, drinking, back to her room, just a hug with the door closed for 2-5 minutes story?


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

Tobyboy said:


> Danny, do feel you have all the details of those nights of her training?
> Is your wife a hugger?
> Are you still buying the latenight, drinking, back to her room, just a hug with the door closed for 2-5 minutes story?


Nope, nope, Not 100%. Nothing else to go on at this point though. Nothing in their correspondence after the trip suggests anything happened. Even it something did happen, I don't have any faith she would confess.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Danny Noonan said:


> Nope, nope, Not 100%. Nothing else to go on at this point though. Nothing in their correspondence after the trip suggests anything happened. Even it something did happen, I don't have any faith she would confess.


I figured. She wont confess to you, but maybe she'll confied to a close friend. Like chaparral suggested, VAR where she usually talks to her friends.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Nevermind.


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## DDudley14 (Apr 12, 2016)

Danny Noonan said:


> Been snooping the whole time....VAR isn't going to work, walks to work, rarely in our car without me. Plus no suspicious phone records of calls/texts and calls/texts have not not been deleted from her work phone. Facebook is clean, internet history is clean with no deletions, no other social sites/apps in use. Still driving myself crazy though......


She knows you are snooping now and she still gets defensive? Hmmm.....
My bet is she found another way to chat without you finding it. My best guess.....Burner phone. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## lars2016 (Apr 18, 2016)

ouch, tough to read this thread. Deep trust issues.

See a counselor, and see how you two can work this out. This is a huge problem and it needs to be worked on and resolved ASAP.

OP - I don't think you're wrong, but your wife may also not be wrong. And you can't communicate your way out of this issue. Best of luck.


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## Danny Noonan (Mar 23, 2016)

lars2016 said:


> ouch, tough to read this thread. Deep trust issues.
> 
> See a counselor, and see how you two can work this out. This is a huge problem and it needs to be worked on and resolved ASAP.
> 
> OP - I don't think you're wrong, but your wife may also not be wrong. And you can't communicate your way out of this issue. Best of luck.


Ya, I'm not hell bent on painting her a cheater, and would be willing to accept that we both are responsible for where were are at if thats where our counseling takes us. But it's hard to ignore all the flags (not all red) that have appeared over the past weeks. I feel like once one hole in the damn is plugged another shows up and I'm running out of fingers.


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## lars2016 (Apr 18, 2016)

Danny Noonan said:


> Ya, I'm not hell bent on painting her a cheater, and would be willing to accept that we both are responsible for where were are at if thats where our counseling takes us. But it's hard to ignore all the flags (not all red) that have appeared over the past weeks. I feel like once one hole in the damn is plugged another shows up and I'm running out of fingers.


I don't think you can do it alone on this right now. Counseling may not be the magic bullet either, but it's worth a try.

Good luck!!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I think you are at your whit's end. 

Continue to monitor. If she is fooling around she will eventually make a mistake. These trips away from home would concern me the most; what is she doing and who she is with? And the fact that alcohol seems to be present at each event. You need to get eyes-on at these events. How? Friends, allies, a PI? I don't know. Get somebody to tail her, GPS, etc.

I hope the opposition to monitoring are correct: that We's and Youse are NUTZ and PARRY-NOID. That would be the best outcome, for sure!

Does she carry a suitcase with her? A briefcase? Does she carry a lunker purse.? I am very technically proficient. I would get a VAR in her luggage, her briefcase and her purse. Sew it into the liner. First, solder in a battery-pack, a parallel-wired 1.5 volts DC or whatever power your VAR's required. Make the VAR's batteries last one week, two weeks, whatever.

That, and the fact that she is rather young at 35. She is in her prime. The age from 35 to 50 is mid-life crisis territory. Most live through it unbloodied. No one makes it through without some regrets. 

It reminds me of the R.S.lyrics, "You can't always get what you waa-ant". It eats at you. The words start to hit home at age ~35, for some later. Toxic friends fuel this yearning and fire.

When the subject does come up again, watch your tone of voice. Show her concern. Tell her that you love her deeply and do not want to lose her to another man. Tell her If I sound paranoid it is because I am worried. I married you for life.

Everything up to this point is conjecture. Her boundaries are not proper and she should not get defensive. Ideally, she should be happy that "her" man is worried about her, is jealous of her friends. This deal and notion is only reality in Vegas, when the Dealer does the dealing. For the rest of us fools....not.


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