# Telling People To Quit Their Jobs



## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Yes I've had my own problems in my marriage. I've had an EA with a woman 1000 miles away from me who I had never met in person. I caught my wife texting another man all day everyday, most likely an EA. And I've also found a suggestive text from a different man on my wife's phone. I've done my investigations and I have found that neither of those incidents ever were physical affairs. I say this just so people understand that I'm just coming out of no where with this.

My question is this, now I totally understand the idea of no contact with the other man or woman after an affair, whether it be emotional or physical. That rule was set by both my wife and I in our situations and was followed by both of us. But as I read thread after thread about affairs there is the constant comment and usually multiple times throughout the thread of how if the affair was with a coworker then that spouse must quit their job immediately, and how that's a must do or the idea of reconciliation can never happen.

Now I don't know where most of you are from or what industries you're in, but how easy do you really think it is to just quit your job in an instant and move on to a new job in your field making the same money you were? Like I said, I completely understand why there should be no contact, but realistically wouldn't quitting a job, most likely being out of work for a little while looking for a new job, and possibly finding a new making less money than you were before, add more stress and tension to an already tense situation and marriage? Not to mention the stress of trying to build your reputation and get established at a new company. I know at least where I live, finding a job in most career type fields are not exactly easy to come by. 

Just curious to see the responses here.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Leaving a job isn't always practical - sometimes, there needs to be another solution, perhaps less safe or desirable, but workable. And wouldn't it be ironic if you force your cheating spouse to leave their great job, and then end up divorced and paying spousal support?


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Leaving a job isn't always practical - sometimes, there needs to be another solution, perhaps less safe or desirable, but workable. And wouldn't it be ironic if you force your cheating spouse to leave their great job, and then end up divorced and paying spousal support?


Exactly. And think of the situations where it's only an EA, and the courts don't recognize that as a valid reason for divorce. You end up adding more problems to your already problem situation.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

It's the recommendation of Dr. Harley of Marriage Builders, who is a licensed therapist who's had success helping recover marriages from PAs and EAs. In his experience, there is no way to recover from infidelity when the WS is still in physical proximity and/or any kind of contact with their affair partner. Of course, if Marriage Builders advice doesn't resonate, there are plenty of other avenues one can take. But he's had success with his plan and in his experience, there is no way around it.

There are many obstacles and roadblocks to recovery. He states his program won't work without that step. Same with his approach to improve marriages by committing to at least 15 hours of 1 on 1 time together. He won't even counsel couples who can't make this happen, and many couples give very good reasons why they can't.

In the end, it simply comes down to priorities. Are you willing to find a new job, even if it pays less, even if it's in an unrelated field, if it could help save your marriage? If a couple decides not to, that's ok. But realize, his plan simply won't work in that case. 

Another thought- he said he started his career focusing primarily on couples where one spouse was a pilot. He saw a ton of failed marriages in this industry due to the travel required. This led him to include "no more nights apart" in his recovery plan. Certainly, MANY couples argue that for the sake of their careers, this simply isn't possible. But when you look at the evidence, nights apart contribute to many PAs and pilots have a high rate of divorce. He can't help recover marriages that continue to spend nights apart because it just won't work in most cases.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Whether it's feasible to actually DO it isn't always the point. It's like a lot of things that should happen, like kicking out the WS, making them take a poly, or selling the car they screwed OW in. Sometimes a lot can be told just from the WS's reaction to such suggestions, or to their willingness to follow through on demands by the BS. It's a **** test, really. Ideally, the WS should VOLUNTEER to change jobs, or sell that car.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> It's the recommendation of Dr. Harley of Marriage Builders, who is a licensed therapist who's had success helping recover marriages from PAs and EAs. In his experience, there is no way to recover from infidelity when the WS is still in physical proximity and/or any kind of contact with their affair partner. Of course, if Marriage Builders advice doesn't resonate, there are plenty of other avenues one can take. But he's had success with his plan and in his experience, there is no way around it.
> 
> There are many obstacles and roadblocks to recovery. He states his program won't work without that step. Same with his approach to improve marriages by committing to at least 15 hours of 1 on 1 time together. He won't even counsel couples who can't make this happen, and many couples give very good reasons why they can't.
> 
> ...


See this is where everything gets skewed. Yes, counselors can work wonders for a relationship but their advice isn’t always practical. Take the 15 hours of one on one time a week. I know that in my life, between my work, my wife’s work, taking care of the house, the pets, our son and all his school and sports activities, all the other day to day responsibilities, and personal time for each of us, it’s almost impossible to spend over 2 hours a day of just us one on one.

On top of that there’s all the additional problems making a spouse quit their job will add to an already tense marriage. The added resentment that they had to give up a job they loved or had to take a decrease in pay for. The possible financial struggles of only one income while the other looks for a new job. The possible depression that taking a job they really don’t like could cause, and list goes on. 

By forcing a WS to quit a job, in my opinion, can add more problems to a failing marriage that will only speed up the process to divorce. And at the same time turn that divorce into more of a messy financial burden then it needs to be.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Most EAs are really an addiction to neural chemicals like dopamine and th like. Quitting the job is a way to remove the chances of an encounter that will cause a relapse. They still go through a withdrawal but are more likely not to get sucked back in. 

Is it really necessary? That depends upon how strong, long and other factors. In my case I removed myself from a position where I interacted with the OW (not my job) but I still continue to see her usually with my wife present at kid and social activities. Not removing entirely made the withdrawal last much longer but I'm over it finally. So if you can quit if you can't work with your spouse on transparency to ensure it doesn't start up again.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> By forcing a WS to quit a job, in my opinion, can add more problems to a failing marriage that will only speed up the process to divorce. And at the same time turn that divorce into more of a messy financial burden then it needs to be.


If you have to FORCE a WS to do ANYthing that comforts the BS, then they should be a FORMERws, and a big ole D should be the letter of the day.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> If you have to FORCE a WS to do ANYthing that comforts the BS, then they should be a FORMERws, and a big ole D should be the letter of the day.


By setting any rule for a WS or giving them any type of ultimatum after an affair is forcing them to do something.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> By setting any rule for a WS or giving them any type of ultimatum after an affair is forcing them to do something.


Forcing implies coercion after a refusal. If they willingly do something you suggest even if it is an ultimatum, it is not forcing.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You guys TOTALLY missed my point. 

You shouldn't HAVE to give an ultimatum (ie FORCE) a WS to do things that are to help the BS. If you do then the WS is obviously NOT invested in R. Any WS worth staying with will WANT to do things that comfort the BS. If they don't WANT to and LOOK FOR WAYS to comfort the BS, then what the **** do you want to be with them for ?????


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

AtMyEnd said:


> Exactly. And think of the situations where it's only an EA, and the courts don't recognize that as a valid reason for divorce. You end up adding more problems to your already problem situation.




Be careful around here saying "only an EA".


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> See this is where everything gets skewed. Yes, counselors can work wonders for a relationship but their advice isn’t always practical. Take the 15 hours of one on one time a week. I know that in my life, between my work, my wife’s work, taking care of the house, the pets, our son and all his school and sports activities, all the other day to day responsibilities, and personal time for each of us, it’s almost impossible to spend over 2 hours a day of just us one on one.
> 
> On top of that there’s all the additional problems making a spouse quit their job will add to an already tense marriage. The added resentment that they had to give up a job they loved or had to take a decrease in pay for. The possible financial struggles of only one income while the other looks for a new job. The possible depression that taking a job they really don’t like could cause, and list goes on.
> 
> By forcing a WS to quit a job, in my opinion, can add more problems to a failing marriage that will only speed up the process to divorce. And at the same time turn that divorce into more of a messy financial burden then it needs to be.


It comes down to the willingness of the WS to adhere to a plan to save their marriage that takes their own desires and wishes out of the equation and instead asks them to consider their spouses feelings and what is best for the relationship. By their very nature, affairs (PAs and EAs) are the most selfish acts one can do in a marriage. Dr. Harley's position is that selfish acts are independent behavior, and more IB is not good for marriage. Interdependence means taking exraordinary care of your spouse and doing what is best for the relationship. 

In a healthy marriage, protecting your career is what is best for the relationship for the reasons you list. But a marriage that has suffered infidelity is unhealthy and in order to recover, the marriage must come first. That is, if the couple is interested in following Dr. Harley's plan. Many are not (and the future success of the marriage is unknown). Even if followed to the letter, Dr. Harley states that his plan may not work after a marriage has suffered infidelity. But in his experience, it's the best shot a couple has at keeping the marriage together. And he's fully aware that Financial Support is one of many spouse's top needs. I've heard him recommend getting a better job as a way to improve their marriages when financial stress is causing problems in a marriage. But in the case of infidelity, the marriage is so broken that the job aspect comes after ending all contact with the affair partner before a couple can begin to recover.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Tergis said:


> I'm thinking that even if the cheater is remorseful and is looking for ways to comfort the betrayed spouse, they won't, off the top of their head, come home and say "Honey, I quit my job for you, you're welcome".


They would agree to end ALL contact with their affair partner, which means requesting a transfer in their company or quitting if necessary to ensure they never talk or see their affair partner again. They also change their contact info, including text and email. And, if they live in the same town, they put a plan in place to relocate. This is the plan. But couples certainly don't have to follow THAT plan and are free to create their own. 

To me though, a truly remorseful spouse interested in saving their marriage will follow a plan that will give them the best shot at recovery, however inconvenient. The marriage must come first.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> You guys TOTALLY missed my point.
> 
> You shouldn't HAVE to give an ultimatum (ie FORCE) a WS to do things that are to help the BS. If you do then the WS is obviously NOT invested in R. Any WS worth staying with will WANT to do things that comfort the BS. If they don't WANT to and LOOK FOR WAYS to comfort the BS, then what the **** do you want to be with them for ?????


No, I totally do get your point, but when the WS is first caught and confronted, and even for a decent amount of time after that, they are in that fog. They're not thinking of reconciliation yet and they're not thinking of ways to comfort anyone yet but themselves. But if NC is going to be part of the deal, it needs to happen ASAP, so yes the BS would be forcing them to do something that they may not be ready to do yet.

I'm not arguing or trying to justify anything one way or the other. This was a topic that came up while talking with a friend last night and I thought it was a good one.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

A marriage surviving ongoing adultery isn't feasible. 

A marriage surviving rugsweeping of an affair isn't feasible. 

Look, what happens to your marriage and your family if you are fired tomorrow? Marriages survive lower income and unemployment/underemployment all the time...not that it's all peaches and cream or "easy" but two committed people can get through that. 

By having an affair--PA or EA--one of the two people is indicating that they are no longer honoring their commitment. Furthermore, if it was a work affair, they have also demonstrated they do not have adequate boundaries in place TO PROTECT THEIR MARRIAGE. 

The issue is not the logistics of financial feasibility. OBVIOUSLY losing a job is going to put a financial pinch on the family. But committed adultery is what ultimately destroys the family--NOT pulling in the belt buckle. 

The affair HAS TO END. Seeing the affair partner every day at work does not end the affair--it only puts it on a very slow simmer on a back burner.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> No, I totally do get your point, but when the WS is first caught and confronted, and even for a decent amount of time after that, they are in that fog. They're not thinking of reconciliation yet and they're not thinking of ways to comfort anyone yet but themselves. But if NC is going to be part of the deal, it needs to happen ASAP, so yes the BS would be forcing them to do something that they may not be ready to do yet.
> 
> I'm not arguing or trying to justify anything one way or the other. This was a topic that came up while talking with a friend last night and I thought it was a good one.


Hence the reason you kick their ass out.

Cheaters don't get to just think of themselves and use 'fog' as an excuse. If they want to be foggy they should be doing it somewhere other than where the BS is.

I'm not saying you DON'T force them, I just saying if you DO have to force them it's a black mark against them.

If them quitting their job is a dealbreaker for the BS and they do it unwillingly, then later realize it was for the best, that's better than the alternatives if R is the desired outcome.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

meson said:


> Forcing implies coercion after a refusal. If they willingly do something you suggest even if it is an ultimatum, it is not forcing.


Technically an ultimatum is forcing, "you either do this or else". And even if they agree willingly to do it, are they really doing it willingly? And how will they feel about what they did "willingly" a month from now? That's where the resentment can set in and just make things worse.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> Technically an ultimatum is forcing, "you either do this or else". And even if they agree willingly to do it, are they really doing it willingly? And how will they feel about what they did "willingly" a month from now? That's where the resentment can set in and just make things worse.


No it won't make things worse. It will clarify things, because if the WS never gets over having to leave their job then they need a kick in the ass and D papers.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Affaircare said:


> A marriage surviving ongoing adultery isn't feasible.
> 
> A marriage surviving rugsweeping of an affair isn't feasible.
> 
> Look, what happens to your marriage and your family if you are fired tomorrow? Marriages survive lower income and unemployment/underemployment all the time...not that it's all peaches and cream or "easy" but two committed people can get through that.


Yes they do, because there's love, understanding and a bond holding those people together. But what happens in the same situation when there isn't love, understanding and that bond is completely broken because of an affair?


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> No it won't make things worse. It will clarify things, because if the WS never gets over having to leave their job then they need a kick in the ass and D papers.


Ok so let's change things up a little. What if the WS who is forced to quit their job is the breadwinner and the BS is a stay at home parent?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> Ok so let's change things up a little. What if the WS who is forced to quit their job is the breadwinner and the BS is a stay at home parent?


If the BS 'forces' the WS to quit then they obviously KNOW they're the breadwinner, and they are willing to make sacrifices to keep the marriage together. The WS actively finds another job and quits the SECOND they find one. If the BS has decided it's quit or D, they're gonna be income-less anyway.

There are ALWAYS 'reasons' why things 'can't' be done. But if something is important enough it will work out. I left my first husband with a 4 month old and a 2 and a 4 year old and LITERALLY just suitcases. I kicked my husband out in 2010 when he cheated, knowing full well I'd have to move if D happened and lose the house and my garden and everything. But some things just ARE that important. You should NEVER *NEED* someone so badly that you have to stay with them no matter what. NO one's job is so irreplaceable that they simply can NEVER leave it.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

This is not complicated. The needing to get away physically from an affair partner is about how much you (and your spouse) value your marriage. I know this to be true without ever reading Dr. Harley's or anyone else's advice.

Your wife cheats with someone. Has feelings for him. Wants to fvck him if she could. Imagines all kind of things with him. He encourages it. He assures her that you are a POS and that he would never treat her like that. Tells her what he would do to her in bed. And all this before he actually does it. She is on heat and in a fog. Then she gets discovered. She has to break this off. Now one of two scenarios take place …


She breaks it off cold turkey. Quits her job and goes through all the hardship you describe. She does this because ….. she loves you once again and wants to make things right OR she is scared of losing the marriage. Whatever the reason her judgement is not clouded. So she has to be pretty damn sure before she does this. Ain't that a better place for the two of you to proceed from ?


The other scenario. She stays at her job but assures you she has no contact but sees him every day. Her judgement is clouded by him reminding her again and again that she made the wrong decision to break it off and that it is possible to get her dopamine fix without you ever knowing. And you are constantly wondering if she is staying true to her word. It begins to weigh you down and is tough for you. You go through all this because ….. you love her once again OR you are scared of losing the marriage. Your judgement is very clouded. Terrible place to proceed from.


So if the hassle of leaving a job and going through hardship outweighs the importance of your marriage and more importantly, peace of mind, then I agree - forget Harley's advice. Don't have her leave her job. Else leaving her job and going through whatever you said, is the least of your problems going forward.

And yes if she is truly remorseful, she will instinctively know that she needs to be away from him without you "forcing" (give me a break) her.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

My thought is, reconciliation isn't for everyone or even most. True reconciliation is pretty rare. If you're choosing to work with your affair partner because quitting is hard, well, you're probably thinking wishfully and not really a good candidate for it. If it's a priority, then you'll figure it out. I also think continuing to work with an AP is highly disrespectful and shows a lack of remorse from the cheater and a lack of boundaries for the betrayed. Cheaters and their excuses SMH. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

AME, I seriously couldn't agree more, and have wondered the same thing on occasion, when I see posts like that. I'm the only woman on my very small 3-person team at my office, and I speak highly of my boss and officemate, both of who are utterly fantastic to work with. I've told my husband how great they both are, and while there's nothing going on (OK, I find my officemate fairly attractive), if H ever got suspicious, and told me to quit my job, I wouldn't. I couldn't, unless he wanted to support the entire household for however long! I've been laid off twice since 2014, and he still expected me to contribute my share, so i highly doubt that he would support the household. Combine that with the fact that it isn't easy to find a job in my field, and no, I wouldn't readily quit my job. I can't think of anyone who _can_ just up and quit, actually. And no, I would never ask hubby to quit his job either!




AtMyEnd said:


> My question is this, now I totally understand the idea of no contact with the other man or woman after an affair, whether it be emotional or physical. That rule was set by both my wife and I in our situations and was followed by both of us. But as I read thread after thread about affairs there is the constant comment and usually multiple times throughout the thread of how if the affair was with a coworker then that spouse must quit their job immediately, and how that's a must do or the idea of reconciliation can never happen.
> 
> Now I don't know where most of you are from or what industries you're in, but how easy do you really think it is to just quit your job in an instant and move on to a new job in your field making the same money you were? Like I said, I completely understand why there should be no contact, but realistically wouldn't quitting a job, most likely being out of work for a little while looking for a new job, and possibly finding a new making less money than you were before, add more stress and tension to an already tense situation and marriage? Not to mention the stress of trying to build your reputation and get established at a new company. I know at least where I live, finding a job in most career type fields are not exactly easy to come by.
> 
> Just curious to see the responses here.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Really?! But, what if you can only spend part of that time together per week, but still want to make the effort to improve things? He seriously wouldn't help a couple like that?



Jessica38 said:


> There are many obstacles and roadblocks to recovery. He states his program won't work without that step. Same with his approach to improve marriages by *committing to at least 15 hours of 1 on 1 time together. He won't even counsel couples who can't make this happen*, and many couples give very good reasons why they can't.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Ursula said:


> AME, I seriously couldn't agree more, and have wondered the same thing on occasion, when I see posts like that. I'm the only woman on my very small 3-person team at my office, and I speak highly of my boss and officemate, both of who are utterly fantastic to work with. I've told my husband how great they both are, and while there's nothing going on (OK, I find my officemate fairly attractive), if H ever got suspicious, and told me to quit my job, I wouldn't. I couldn't, unless he wanted to support the entire household for however long! I've been laid off twice since 2014, and he still expected me to contribute my share, so i highly doubt that he would support the household. Combine that with the fact that it isn't easy to find a job in my field, and no, I wouldn't readily quit my job. I can't think of anyone who _can_ just up and quit, actually. And no, I would never ask hubby to quit his job either!


Have either you or your husband ever cheated on the other? If not, you really have no idea what either of you would do. And if it happened that you cheated with this guy you find attractive and your husband told you it was your job or him, and you still wouldn't quit, then you'd deserve to be D'd.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Have either you or your husband ever cheated on the other? If not, you really have no idea what either of you would do. And if it happened that you cheated with this guy you find attractive and your husband told you it was your job or him, and you still wouldn't quit, then you'd deserve to be D'd.




Like I said, reconciliation isn't for everyone. If you cheat with the office mate and then continue working with him then you've made your choice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> Technically an ultimatum is forcing, "you either do this or else". And even if they agree willingly to do it, are they really doing it willingly? And how will they feel about what they did "willingly" a month from now? That's where the resentment can set in and just make things worse.


Forcing a BS to watch their WS leave for work each day knowing they are going to see and/or communicate with their affair partner is the epitome of creating resentment, and there are two types of resentment: 1. The kind that someone feels when they have to stop doing something they want because it hurts their spouse, and 2. The kind that someone feels when they are forced to put up with something that deeply hurts them.

Guess which type is harder to recover from?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Answering OP.

Depends on if your marriage is worth more than a job.

If my wife had a PA it would be over except for my retribution.

If she had an EA with a coworker I would probably give her a second chance if she busted her ass to repair the marriage and that would include absolutely no contact with her AP. 

I value my marriage far more than any monetary compensation and derive major satisfaction from it. If no contact meant her quitting her job, she would do it in a heartbeat or lose me.

I'm a serious hard ass though and could probably "convince" her AP to quit.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> See this is where everything gets skewed. Yes, counselors can work wonders for a relationship but their advice isn’t always practical. Take the 15 hours of one on one time a week. I know that in my life, between my work, my wife’s work, taking care of the house, the pets, our son and all his school and sports activities, all the other day to day responsibilities, and personal time for each of us, it’s almost impossible to spend over 2 hours a day of just us one on one.
> 
> On top of that there’s all the additional problems making a spouse quit their job will add to an already tense marriage. The added resentment that they had to give up a job they loved or had to take a decrease in pay for. The possible financial struggles of only one income while the other looks for a new job. The possible depression that taking a job they really don’t like could cause, and list goes on.
> 
> By forcing a WS to quit a job, in my opinion, can add more problems to a failing marriage that will only speed up the process to divorce. And at the same time turn that divorce into more of a messy financial burden then it needs to be.


So where is your line?

You are clear that money is somewhat, possibly, more important than fidelity to an extent.

So as long as your wife is bringing home the bacon it is palatable to you that she might be porking her coworker?

Where is your line?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> See this is where everything gets skewed. Yes, counselors can work wonders for a relationship but their advice isn’t always practical. Take the 15 hours of one on one time a week. I know that in my life, between my work, my wife’s work, taking care of the house, the pets, our son and all his school and sports activities, all the other day to day responsibilities, and personal time for each of us, it’s almost impossible to spend over 2 hours a day of just us one on one.


If your marriage is in crisis, and you are serious about wanting to save it, you do whatever you must to make that happen. Even if it means the kids miss out on some sport. Their family is far more important.




ConanHub said:


> *I value my marriage far more than any monetary compensation and derive major satisfaction from it.* If no contact meant her quitting her job, she would do it in a heartbeat or lose me.


Ditto. My marriage and family is the most important thing to me, my entire world. It's streets ahead from number 2 and 3 on the list. If it were ever at risk, I would do whatever was needed to save and repair it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Ursula said:


> Really?! But, what if you can only spend part of that time together per week, but still want to make the effort to improve things? He seriously wouldn't help a couple like that?


Dr. Harley states that he simply can't help a couple who refuses to agree to spend 15 hours a week meeting the 4 most important intimate needs. He's tried and learned over the years after counseling thousands of marriages that it won't work without it.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

[threadjack]
Just to comment on the "15 hours a week" topic, that really isn't all that much time. Think of it like this:
Mon-Fri. 2 hours/day = 10 hours
Sat. = 3 hours 
Sun. = 3 hours

Or how about:
Mon-Fri. 1-5 hours/day = 7.5 hours
Sat. = 5 hours (2 in the morning, 3 as "date night")
Sun. = 3 hours (second "date night")

The trick is that each hour has to be just the two of you, focusing on each other, no kids. But think of it this way: 1 hour having coffee/breakfast together, 1 hour before bedtime just talking, some extra "recreational activity" on Saturday and a date night, and on Sundays the kids go to their room early (not necessarily "to sleep" but their own private "me time") and you two rotate a favorite game or book and do it together. See? It's really not all that hard.
[/threadjack]


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If it comes right down to it, survival may be more important than a marriage. Of course, survival isn't usually the issue, unless divorce is likely.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> Yes I've had my own problems in my marriage. I've had an EA with a woman 1000 miles away from me who I had never met in person. I caught my wife texting another man all day everyday, most likely an EA. And I've also found a suggestive text from a different man on my wife's phone. I've done my investigations and I have found that neither of those incidents ever were physical affairs. I say this just so people understand that I'm just coming out of no where with this.
> 
> My question is this, now I totally understand the idea of no contact with the other man or woman after an affair, whether it be emotional or physical. That rule was set by both my wife and I in our situations and was followed by both of us. But as I read thread after thread about affairs there is the constant comment and usually multiple times throughout the thread of how if the affair was with a coworker then that spouse must quit their job immediately, and how that's a must do or the idea of reconciliation can never happen.
> 
> ...


I've been "quitted" from jobs many times. Given that, statistically in the US, the average worker gets laid off twice in their careers, and the average unemployment during those layoffs is 40 months or so, the expectation is that you live beneath your means. So I always have. 

So, I've lost jobs, gotten jobs that paid 30% less, etc...and always come out ahead. The new job always taught me something new.

I began having income in 1966 and with a few exceptions, the availability of jobs has seeemed better every years since. So, with confidence, and assuming you've done what everybody says to do (add skills every year), a job isn't hard to get. I mean - you were unemployed when you found THIS job, right?

However...that's just a response to your side topic.

As far as "telling someone to quit"...in my many years of delving into various parts of psychology, I have not encountered, even once, a situation where "telling" another adult to do something ends up doing anything other than driving a wedge between people. IMO, you just don't "tell" any other adult what to do, unless you're in a position of power - boss, parole officer, judge of the courtroom, etc.

I would say, the agreements are as you described mutual - you agree to never see the person again. If it was a co-worker, then you have a conversation. "Are you in the same department?" "Is there a way you can get moved to a different department or project?" Make sure to say "I want to honor my agreement with you and it is a two-sided agreement and I admit some fear here, so please help me out." If the company is too small or rigid to allow any flexibility internally, then I'd be offering to help. "What kind of jobs do you think you can do that you'd like? Do you need to take some classes? I'll put in extra effort to watch the kids." I'd do this not because I'm "telling" them to quit, but since we DO have an agreement, and I know that my spouse loves me and wants to honor those commitments, I'm sure it's on her mind as well, so I'm trying to make it easier.

But - "tell" another adult what to do? Really bad idea.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> Exactly. And think of the situations where it's only an EA, and the courts don't recognize that as a valid reason for divorce. You end up adding more problems to your already problem situation.


In 50 states, reasons are not required. Perhaps you're outside the USA?


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

If I found my spouse was in a physical or serious emotional affair I would not demand she quit her job. Why should I? She would need that income to finance her divorce lawyer and pay for a new place to live. 

Nor would I want pass words to her electronic devices, or marriage counseling, or her checking in with me and telling me where she's at, ad nauseum. Why? I would force myself to embrace the truth that the marriage is already over and there is nothing to salvage. 

I hope I would immediately get to work salvaging my dignity and I would start by telling wife thank you for revealing her true identity now rather than later and wish her luck in her new life without me.  

Then I would go dark on her. Ghost. And move on. 

If I were put in a time machine and transported back 24 years, this is exactly what I would do if I had to do it all over again. 

After many years of experience and carefully observing human nature I've predetermined this would be my pathway in this hypothetical scenario, but it might not be best for everyone. I sure won't fault anyone trying to reconcile, indeed I admire many who pull it off. More power to them. But it's not for me.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DustyDog said:


> But - "tell" another adult what to do? Really bad idea.


Only for the incredibly insecure and weak.

If you can't tell your cheating spouse to do or not do certain things to repair the marriage and restore trust then you are the definition of doormat.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Some psychologist recommend moving far away because sometimes spouses get addicted to the person they are cheating with and despite being caught, they cannot live without their lover when they are so close to them milage wise. I moved once because and ex girlfriend whose husband caught us did not care and called me to have sex the next day. She was addicted to me. She showed up wherever I was and even though I did not like her much, when I was near her, I was extremely attracted to her. Must be pheromones. Even after her husband caught us, she did not wear a wedding band, and never mentioned that she was married with kids, she called me up to have sex with her dismissing my concerns about dating a married woman. 

I tried staying away from her but she always showed up where I was and even though Io did not like her as a person, when I got near her I was highly aroused. Must be pheromones. She then started to stalk me. She was addicted to me and was determined to break me and my wife up. She left roses on my door step and called at night to wish me a good night. She would spy on me and it was getting ridiculous. I felt weak and this was before caller ID or strict stalking laws, so I moved far away and problem solved. Aside from her stalking, I was addicted to her too so I wanted to get away from her before it became a problem. My wife was OK with my girlfriends but not ones that tried to break us up.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

That is big problem. Making the WS to quit their job. THIS IS THE WRONG SOLUTION.

The right solution is stated in the last sentence of my response.
.......................................................................................................................................................................................

This post triggered something in my past were I was badly "wronged" by someone that begged for my understanding and for my trust. 

.......................................................................................................................................................................................

When I was young someone ran into the back of my pickup truck and wiped out my rear bumper. The guy that hit me had no insurance and begged me not to call the police. I could tell he had been drinking. Being young I felt compassion for him. But I wrote down all his ID information off his drivers license and license plate. I got his phone number. I told him that I would get an estimate for a new bumper only. I would change it out myself. He gladly agreed.

I got the price of the new bumper. I called the phone number he gave me, it was disconnected. I went to the address on the drivers license and they said he moved out about six months ago. I was pissed. I had a friend who was a Policeman. He ran the plate for me. I got his current address. I drove by his place and saw his car.

I called two of my friends, one was in the Hell's Angels [he worked for me]. I was a new engineer in a large mfg plant. The other guy was about 6 ft 5 inches tall and had a big belly. He was as gentle as a lamb but looked really mean.

I wore a leather jacket and put on a welders cloth hat. 

We went up on the porch and rang the doorbell. The same guy answered the door. i told him who I was was and told him I was really pissed that he lied to me. My Hell.s Angel buddy told the guy to give me the money NOW! He forked over the money and gave me an extra fifty.

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................

The correct answer is this: The cheating SOB POSOM should quit HIS job. How you convince him to do this is your issue.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Only for the incredibly insecure and weak.
> 
> If you can't tell your cheating spouse to do or not do certain things to repair the marriage and restore trust then you are the definition of doormat.


If your relationship is based on ordering people to do things and having them obey, then it is not a romantic relationship. It is one of ownership. If "weak" and "doormat" are equal to "I prefer collaboration", then I'll be happy to be a weak doormat.

On the other hand, that kind of conversation always strikes me as someone who only knows how to approach people in terms of being in a competition...which is also not a particularly romantic notion, IMO.

Before 'telling' anybody anything you'd better damned well make sure they AGREE this is the right thing...until you're there, any "telling" you do will make them think of you as what you are - a belligerant child.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Ursula said:


> AME, I seriously couldn't agree more, and have wondered the same thing on occasion, when I see posts like that. I'm the only woman on my very small 3-person team at my office, and *I speak highly of my boss and officemate, both of who are utterly fantastic to work with. I've told my husband how great they both are, and while there's nothing going on (OK, I find my officemate fairly attractive), if H ever got suspicious, and told me to quit my job, I wouldn't.* I couldn't, unless he wanted to support the entire household for however long! I've been laid off twice since 2014, and he still expected me to contribute my share, so i highly doubt that he would support the household. Combine that with the fact that it isn't easy to find a job in my field, and no, I wouldn't readily quit my job. I can't think of anyone who _can_ just up and quit, actually. And no, I would never ask hubby to quit his job either!


So OP, the above poster gives a good example here. Her job is clearly more important than the marriage without her even knowing that it is. She believes that she COULDN'T give up the job because jobs are hard to find. Maybe so. But it does present a possible recipe for disaster.

She *loves* the small team she works with - her office partner is attractive to her. She praises them to her hubby. I guess this happens. They both are nice people. She sees them at work and they are nice because they all have to work together. None of them leave their mess lying around the house to clean up, or fail to put out the garbage, or have to deal with sick children - they are nice! And attractive!

Now possibly already suspicious hubby and her go through one bad patch. (Probably have had more than one - normal in marriages). If the "attractive" one of these nice people is a predator and finds that the poster is attractive to him, this marriage is toast. He will say nice things to her and bad things about her husband, she will agree, she is already attracted to him, and all this becomes very exciting. She even thinks of leaving hubby for attractive office partner. Again all of these things do happen. 

Its what happens next that is important. She gets discovered and is asked to leave the job by hubby because in order to repair the marriage, she needs to be away from the predator. But no! She cannot "afford" to leave the job because after all, jobs are hard to find, this pays well, she didn't actually sleep with the guy (maybe just a kiss although she was thinking of leaving hubby anyway) - so no! She will not leave her job. How do you think the marriage is going to end up. Hubby either divorces her immediately or lives in pain and with a lot of resentment for her. She thinks less of her hubby and eventually also wants to divorce him. In any case the financial situation is not going to be good - its going to be worse than it was before. Two homes, split household, divorce expenses etc.

Now if she had left her job, she would only do so if she valued her marriage and family above everything else and really was in love with and wanted to be with her husband. This would give them both a chance to fix an EA. And find a way to manage financially. So all about choices.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> Technically an ultimatum is forcing, "you either do this or else". And even if they agree willingly to do it, are they really doing it willingly? And how will they feel about what they did "willingly" a month from now? That's where the resentment can set in and just make things worse.


I think one workaround here is to approach the WS calmly and with a great degree of maturity and say, "I have read that ending contact with your AP is a lot easier to do if you quit your job and get a new one. Continuing to see them every day is likely to prove tempting and may even pull you back into the affair. It would be like trying to lose 100 pounds while working as a pastry chef. Why not make it easier on yourself and just get a new job?"

Presenting things to someone in a way that shows the advantages to them usually makes it more appealing to them to consider, and less threatening. I guess it is called salesmanship.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DustyDog said:


> If your relationship is based on ordering people to do things and having them obey, then it is not a romantic relationship. It is one of ownership. If "weak" and "doormat" are equal to "I prefer collaboration", then I'll be happy to be a weak doormat.
> 
> On the other hand, that kind of conversation always strikes me as someone who only knows how to approach people in terms of being in a competition...which is also not a particularly romantic notion, IMO.
> 
> Before 'telling' anybody anything you'd better damned well make sure they AGREE this is the right thing...until you're there, any "telling" you do will make them think of you as what you are - a belligerant child.


Two ways of dealing with adultery?

I'll stick with the direct approach. Mrs. Conan and I have over 25 years together and she would not hesitate to tell me what to do on occasion as well.

We are probably what most would refer to as successful in most areas of our marriage including romance/intimacy /sex.

When someone is harming/abusing you, you need to tell them to stop.

Infidelity is harmful and abusive both mentally and emotionally.

Stopping the harm/abuse consists of a little thing we call NC here at TAM.

NC might require a new job, home or even a new city and friends.

If you are unable to tell someone to stop harming/abusing you, then you are a doormat.

There is nothing belligerent or childish about it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

manfromlamancha said:


> Ursula said:
> 
> 
> > AME, I seriously couldn't agree more, and have wondered the same thing on occasion, when I see posts like that. I'm the only woman on my very small 3-person team at my office, and *I speak highly of my boss and officemate, both of who are utterly fantastic to work with. I've told my husband how great they both are, and while there's nothing going on (OK, I find my officemate fairly attractive), if H ever got suspicious, and told me to quit my job, I wouldn't.* I couldn't, unless he wanted to support the entire household for however long! I've been laid off twice since 2014, and he still expected me to contribute my share, so i highly doubt that he would support the household. Combine that with the fact that it isn't easy to find a job in my field, and no, I wouldn't readily quit my job. I can't think of anyone who _can_ just up and quit, actually. And no, I would never ask hubby to quit his job either!
> ...


Your are missing a HUGE point Ursula talked about. Her husband WON'T support them financially. Won't support her. So without a job, she is screwed. If someone refuses to help support you, how can that person expect you to quit your job?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Your are missing a HUGE point Ursula talked about. Her husband WON'T support them financially. Won't support her. So without a job, she is screwed. If someone refuses to help support you, how can that person expect you to quit your job?


If this is true, that is a whole different problem - nothing to do with having an EA with an office partner and not quitting the job on discovery. If she is with a husband that won't support them financially, that husband probably needs to be an ex-husband. Different problem completely.

In any case, what I read was that he wanted her to work TOO. He is working but cannot support the family just by himself. This is different to "won't support the family" - he wants her to contribute her bit too.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

She says she was laid off twice since 2014 and even while laid off still expected her to contribute her "share".


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Livvie said:


> She says she was laid off twice since 2014 and even while laid off still expected her to contribute her "share".


Yeah. Charming...

Her situation would be interesting.

Not wishing infidelity on anyone but her husband's reaction to an EA or PA with a coworker would be interesting to observe.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Just responding to the OP, yeah, it's very easy to say the cheater must quit their job. In the economy I live in, that ain't so easy.

However, a good amount of cheaters continue their affairs when they work with their affair partner. It's just so easy to continue contact and let's be honest - on D-Day, the cheater is TOLD they have to stop all contact with their affair partner. That obviously wasn't something they were choosing to do themselves or they wouldn't be IN the affair in order to get caught. So you're already dealing with someone who didn't want to stop their affair in the FIRST place, and here they are being thrown right back into the same playpen with their affair partner. I think it's a bit ludicrous to believe a WS when they claim 'we're ignoring each other at work, I swear!' like so many cheaters claim to their betrayed spouses. Such *hogwash*.

So, I understand the desire to have a cheater no longer work where they see their affair partner every day. But a lot of the time, it's just unrealistic - especially if the couple has foolishly lived up to their means and the cheater can't even come close to getting the same salary elsewhere, or if the BS isn't working and the cheater's income is the ONLY one they depend on and things are already as tight as they can get. But some cheating ass-clown is NOT worth the BS possibly going into bankruptcy or foreclosure on their home or ruining their good credit or having to move into their parent's basement JUST so their cheater isn't working with their affair partner. There's a limit.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

AtMyEnd said:


> Now I don't know where most of you are from or what industries you're in, but how easy do you really think it is to just *quit* your job in an instant and move on to a new job in your field making the same money you were?


I'd reckon that the action of quitting is about as easy as jumping into bed with an affair partner.

I'd also reckon that finding a new job and suffering the consequences of quitting your old one is much easier than spending the next 2-5 years trying to repair the marriage.

But that's just my opinion, others may feel differently.

The idea is that quitting is easy, finding a new job is hard. Cheating does much more damage than the cheaters are aware of, that includes knock-on future damage that hasn't even occurred yet.


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## stixx (Mar 20, 2017)

If it's unrealistic to expect the cheater to quit working because their affair partner is there too, and they only stopped the affair because they got caught then the only realistic solution is to end the relationship. It's probably not going to work out anyway after cheating.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Two ways of dealing with adultery?
> 
> I'll stick with the direct approach. Mrs. Conan and I have over 25 years together and she would not hesitate to tell me what to do on occasion as well.
> 
> ...


This X100. If your spouse is hurting you, it's ok to tell them it needs to stop. Personal boundaries are for YOU- you get to tell your partner what you're willing (and not willing) to live with. And if they are honoring their vows to protect and cherish you and forsake all others, they will listen.


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## stixx (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> This X100. If your spouse is hurting you, it's ok to tell them it needs to stop. Personal boundaries are for YOU- you get to tell your partner what you're willing (and not willing) to live with. And if they are honoring their vows to protect and cherish you and forsake all others, they will listen.


But we're talking about cheaters here, who by definition are not honorable and do not cherish their partner and do not forsake others so why would they listen?


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> Leaving a job isn't always practical - sometimes, there needs to be another solution, perhaps less safe or desirable, but workable. And wouldn't it be ironic if you force your cheating spouse to leave their great job, and then end up divorced and paying spousal support?


And its not ironic that because the the WS is *STILL* at the job, that it causes the divorce... and he will still need to pay child support.

If the cheater *IS* going to keep the affair, than he or she doesn't care about the marriage and will continue to work there.

If the cheater *WANTS* to save his marriage - then he will need to change jobs or his AP needs to change jobs. The cost of divorce, destruction of the family, harm to the children vs a job? Hmmmmm.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

AtMyEnd said:


> By setting any rule for a WS or giving them any type of ultimatum after an affair is forcing them to do something.
> 
> No, I totally do get your point, but when the WS is first caught and confronted, and even for a decent amount of time after that, they are in that fog. They're not thinking of reconciliation yet and they're not thinking of ways to comfort anyone yet but themselves. But if NC is going to be part of the deal, it needs to happen ASAP, so yes the BS would be forcing them to do something that they may not be ready to do yet.


Then perhaps the wayward shouldn't have made the decision to become a wayward? EA easily become PA as well and PA can also add EA. If you don't want to lose your job, DON'T cheat. And from a company perspective... since you are cheating / lying to your spouse - you are likely to also do other things, like steal money or items from the company.

You're not getting the point. You are saying that the WS shouldn't leave the job because the WS is still in the fog. BUT if you continue to see your AP, you are keeping yourself in the fog. You are NOT putting your marriage first. transferring or quitting the job to remove yourself away from the AP is part of the process of building trust.


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## stixx (Mar 20, 2017)

TaDor said:


> Then perhaps the wayward shouldn't have made the decision to become a wayward?


Never understand the point of these "after the fact" posts.

There's a LOT of things we shouldn't have done.

But we DID and now we have to deal with it unless there's a way to turn back the clock and some how undo it.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Ursula said:


> AME, I seriously couldn't agree more, and have wondered the same thing on occasion, when I see posts like that. I'm the only woman on my very small 3-person team at my office, and I speak highly of my boss and officemate, both of who are utterly fantastic to work with. I've told my husband how great they both are, and while there's nothing going on (OK, I find my officemate fairly attractive), if H ever got suspicious, and told me to quit my job, I wouldn't. I couldn't unless he wanted to support the entire household for however long!


 What if your husband cheated with a co-worker (male or female) - and so you can both support your household - he continues to work with his AP 8+ hours a day, going out of town on biz trips, spending lunches together - in the park, in the car by the park, in the back seat of the car by the park?

But he says "I won't talk to the AP anymore, trust me" - you'll take him at his word?


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

stixx said:


> Never understand the point of these "after the fact" posts.
> 
> There's a LOT of things we shouldn't have done.
> 
> But we DID and now we have to deal with it unless there's a way to turn back the clock and some how undo it.


Point of that is... the Wayward knew they were doing something they know is WRONG... so they are going to have to suffer some consequences. They know that getting busted at work will be a problem.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TaDor said:


> And its not ironic that because the the WS is *STILL* at the job, that it causes the divorce... and he will still need to pay child support.
> 
> If the cheater *IS* going to keep the affair, than he or she doesn't care about the marriage and will continue to work there.
> 
> If the cheater *WANTS* to save his marriage - then he will need to change jobs or his AP needs to change jobs. The cost of divorce, destruction of the family, harm to the children vs a job? Hmmmmm.


Well, if you put it that way ... you might still be wrong.

If the cheater is the only spouse working, and cannot find a comparable job in the area, then IMO better to establish whatever safeguards you can and have them keep working. Quitting and being unable to support the family isn't going to help the marriage. That alone could also lead to divorce, only there is little or no money for alimony or child support, so the whole family is hurting. If the marriage survives, it may mean downsizing considerably if there are no good jobs. At best, in such situations they may be able to move to find a job in another town or state, even if that disrupts family ties, schooling, housing, etc. There may be more harm to leaving the job than staying - it really comes down to how much the cheater wants to reconcile, and how well they can avoid the AP. The couple needs to decide what works for them - there really is no single solution that can work for everyone, only ones that are better or worse.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Ursula said:


> AME, I seriously couldn't agree more, and have wondered the same thing on occasion, when I see posts like that. I'm the only woman on my very small 3-person team at my office, and I speak highly of my boss and officemate, both of who are utterly fantastic to work with. I've told my husband how great they both are, and while there's nothing going on (OK, I find my officemate fairly attractive),* if H ever got suspicious, and told me to quit my job, I wouldn't.* I couldn't, unless he wanted to support the entire household for however long! I've been laid off twice since 2014, and he still expected me to contribute my share, so i highly doubt that he would support the household. Combine that with the fact that it isn't easy to find a job in my field, and no, I wouldn't readily quit my job. I can't think of anyone who _can_ just up and quit, actually. And no, I would never ask hubby to quit his job either!


There is a big difference here.* IF *is stated in the bolded above. Why should an innocent spouse [you] have to leave their job?

Ursula, *IF* your lips, boobs and nether regions remain pure; no man [after marriage] has enjoyed these treasures other than your dear husband, and you did not banter lust or romance a man at work, you would have no need or reason to leave your job. You know this. This is common sense.

If your husband was jealous for no real reason, then that is a horse of a different color. 

Your color would not Sorrel be, nor Gruilo, but Albino, sic., snow.

The cheaters are the ones who need to quit their jobs. Or better, the POSOM or POSOW.

And *IF*, dear Ursula, your husband cheated with a co-worker and she still worked with him after D-Day and during the "R" attempt, I am sure you would want him to exit his job...stage left.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

stixx said:


> But we're talking about cheaters here, who by definition are not honorable and do not cherish their partner and do not forsake others so why would they listen?


I'm talking about spouses who want to recover their marriage. If a cheating spouse is not willing to work on recovery, then the marriage doesn't have a chance (unless the BS is willing to have an open marriage).


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

This post comes up at an interesting time in my life. My closest friend on the planet has just found out her husband had an affair with a co worker, their lives are now in turmoil. He is in the medical field and on around $500k per year, his affair partner is in the same field and in a very senior position. If there is to be any reconciliation ( which doesn't seem likely at this point) then one of them must leave the hospital, no if's or but's on this and I fully support my friends stance on this.

Be an arse then you have to suffer the fallout in your career and finances.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Some of the top careers in infidelity are: Medical (long hours / stress), Airlines (Away from home for 1+ days at a time), Politicians and Ministers (power structure). Company work that involves travel is very high in cheating.




Married but Happy said:


> Well, if you put it that way ... you might still be wrong.
> 
> If the cheater is the only spouse working, and cannot find a comparable job in the area, then IMO better to establish whatever safeguards you can and have them keep working. Quitting and being unable to support the family isn't going to help the marriage. At best, in such situations they may be able to move to find a job in another town or state, even if that disrupts family ties, schooling, housing, etc. There may be more harm to leaving the job than staying - it really comes down to how much the cheater wants to reconcile, and how well they can avoid the AP.


 Well then... that works out for the cheater - and many DO cheat with the BS pretending its not happening because of the bucketloads of money (like certain super-rich couples in which it's obvious she can't stand the creep). The wife who stays at home and takes care of the 3 kids is dependent on the income to cover bills and feed the kids. That's okay... keep the job ~ she can still file for divorce, have him pay her legal fees and then some.

It is acceptable to leave a job (if the AP can't / won't leave - remember there could be two sets of families with kids) within a reasonable timeframe... like a couple of weeks. Again, usually cheaters aren't thinking that far, they don't care - they just want to screw their brains out. No matter who gets hurt.

So what is your personal experience of infidelity?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TaDor said:


> That's okay... keep the job ~ she can still file for divorce, have him pay her legal fees and then some.
> ...
> So what is your personal experience of infidelity?


Yes, she (or he) can still file for divorce. As they can if the spouse does quit the job (only, they may not get much if they can't find another that pays well). Exposure, and the cheater showing remorse and true attempts to reconcile may be enough, IMO. Again, it's up to the couple to decide what they can tolerate. While it may be ideal for the cheater to leave that job, idealism doesn't provide food and shelter. And proximity does not always mean the affair continues, once exposed and reconciliation is chosen.

I have some experience with infidelity. I believe my ex had an EA with a guy at work - maybe it got physical. At the time, I didn't care that much, because I was already planning to divorce her for other reasons - and did. Besides, unless we both wanted to save the marriage at any cost (neither of us did by then), it would be better for her to continue working (comparable jobs were very rare) so I'd pay less alimony and child support. It was enough to expose to the other guy's wife, who watched him like a hawk - he kept his job, too, since they clearly couldn't afford him taking a lower paying job elsewhere.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Yes, she (or he) can still file for divorce. As they can if the spouse does quit the job (only, they may not get much if they can't find another that pays well). Exposure, and the cheater showing remorse and true attempts to reconcile may be enough, IMO. Again, it's up to the couple to decide what they can tolerate. While it may be ideal for the cheater to leave that job, idealism doesn't provide food and shelter. And proximity does not always mean the affair continues, once exposed and reconciliation is chosen.
> 
> I have some experience with infidelity. I believe my ex had an EA with a guy at work - maybe it got physical. At the time, I didn't care that much, because I was already planning to divorce her for other reasons - and did. Besides, unless we both wanted to save the marriage at any cost (neither of us did by then), it would be better for her to continue working (comparable jobs were very rare) so I'd pay less alimony and child support. It was enough to expose to the other guy's wife, who watched him like a hawk - he kept his job, too, since they clearly couldn't afford him taking a lower paying job elsewhere.


You have an alternate point of view that is valid.

People can have different priorities. I suppose determining the priorities of a BS concerning finances is a good item to determine when offering reconciliation advice.

NC really is a must for the majority of marriages to recover however some folks apparently don't require it.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Guess it seems pretty simple to me, like the saying goes play stupid games and win stupid prizes. 

Everyone saying quitting a job isn't easy and causes stress, so does divorce and breaking apart a family. If the WS had an affair with a co-worker I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask they find another position somewhere else. The BS really gets to determine where they fall on the scale of need to make reconciliation work. Many, if not most, won't reconcile at all so my thinking is if your spouse is going to forgive or try and forgive you the worse betrayal then they get to call the shots on what they need.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> You have an alternate point of view that is valid.
> 
> People can have different priorities. I suppose determining the priorities of a BS concerning finances is a good item to determine when offering reconciliation advice.
> 
> NC really is a must for the majority of marriages to recover however some folks apparently don't require it.


The problem with this is a BS may very well WANT to believe that the WS can handle contact because they're remorseful and actively working on R (MC, etc.)....and likely wants to keep the family's financial security as much as the WS. Especially if they have children. And if those kids are settled in school, a BS may want to "skip" the challenges of relocating. 

But ONE text or brush next to an Affair partner can rekindle the entire thing. It has in many instances, which is why a BS needs to insist on NC, even if it means changing jobs and relocating to a different area.

This step can be just as painful and breed resentment in the BS as it does a WS who wants to keep their job. But it must be done if the marriage is going to recover.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> The problem with this is a BS may very well WANT to believe that the WS can handle contact because they're remorseful and actively working on R (MC, etc.)....and likely wants to keep the family's financial security as much as the WS. Especially if they have children. And if those kids are settled in school, a BS may want to "skip" the challenges of relocating.
> 
> But ONE text or brush next to an Affair partner can rekindle the entire thing. It has in many instances, which is why a BS needs to insist on NC, even if it means changing jobs and relocating to a different area.
> 
> This step can be just as painful and breed resentment in the BS as it does a WS who wants to keep their job. But it must be done if the marriage is going to recover.


I'm extremely territorial and I would have to have NC regardless of the cost but I try to empathize with different points of view.

I believe in NC to reestablish trust and commitment.

A WS might never again stray and be revolted by their previous infidelity so much as to not ever be tempted again but putting the BS through any uncertainty isn't healthy for a damaged marriage at all.

I agree most stringently with you but am willing to consider other points of view.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I also don't think "saving" the marriage or reconciliation is a good idea - except in very rare cases. So whatever I'd decide would be based purely on pragmatic considerations that presume a divorce is in the works.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I'm extremely territorial and I would have to have NC regardless of the cost but I try to empathize with different points of view.
> 
> I believe in NC to reestablish trust and commitment.
> 
> ...


I understand. I just wanted to point out that sometimes the BS may have a hard time and feel resentment too at the possibility of having to uproot and/or suffer financial stress due to the WS affair. A BS may be just as opposed to the WS quitting their job.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

And I couldn't agree more! No, we haven't cheated on each other that I know of, but we've talked about open marriages, and I've told H that he was welcome to go find it elsewhere if he wanted to, so no, I wouldn't make him quit his job; that's his livelihood, and my job is my livelihood. 



Hope1964 said:


> Have either you or your husband ever cheated on the other? If not, you really have no idea what either of you would do. And if it happened that you cheated with this guy you find attractive and your husband told you it was your job or him, and you still wouldn't quit, then you'd deserve to be D'd.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Hey @manfromlamancha, I guess I did give a good case study, didn't I?!

Yes, I have finally found a job that I'm actually excited to go to in the mornings, and that makes all the difference. It's really hard to have a job you hate, and I've ended up taking more sick days than I should simply because I don't want to be there. This job isn't like that. It keeps me mentally stimulated, and the office dogs also help a lot (belly rub breaks are the best kind of breaks). My officemate is a quiet man, and a wealth of information; I've learned a lot from him in regards to our field. The work is interesting; it's within my field, but different tasks than I've done before. My boss is one of the best I've ever had, and I never said that he was attractive; he's old enough to be my Father.

That being said, my marriage is almost 4 years in, and it honestly is a marriage that shouldn't have happened in the first place. I'm not sure if you know my history, but let me give you a quick rundown: we dated for 3 months, engaged for 10 months, and married for about 3.5 years. We can't communicate with each other, and it's been slowly breaking down since it started. We didn't know each other when we got married, and we still don't know each other because we spend very little time together. We eat supper while watching TV together every evening, and this past Friday was our first date night since early December, and he spent a chunk of it on the phone with his sibling. Also, we don't have children, and that's a major part of the problem; I want a family, but refuse to have one with someone who is seldom available.

So, my marriage is on a downhill slope, and I'm not sure if things are going to work out. We were going through a book together, but fell off the rails with that, and since we've been trying and not succeeding to change things since year #1, I've got 1 foot out the door. So yes, at this point, my job is the 1 bright spot in life right now, and it is more important to me than a marriage that I'm merely ho-hum about. Hell, I've given my H permission to cheat. I figured that since I'm not able to teach him anything in the bedroom, maybe someone else can. He's been in an open (non-sexual) relationship before with his best friend and that guy's girlfriend (now wife). I thought he might be up for it again. He's not, so we're both stuck between a rock and a hard place. And no, if H ended up hooking up with someone at his office, I would probably slap him on the back and say, "good for you!". So yes, I know myself, and I know what I would do in a situation like that.




manfromlamancha said:


> So OP, the above poster gives a good example here. Her job is clearly more important than the marriage without her even knowing that it is. She believes that she COULDN'T give up the job because jobs are hard to find. Maybe so. But it does present a possible recipe for disaster.
> 
> She *loves* the small team she works with - her office partner is attractive to her. *She praises them to her hubby*. I guess this happens. They both are nice people. She sees them at work and they are nice because they all have to work together. *None of them leave their mess lying around the house to clean up, or fail to put out the garbage, or have to deal with sick children* - they are nice! And attractive!
> 
> ...


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

@TaDor, see my reply to manfromlamancha; it pretty much outlines the answers to your questions!




TaDor said:


> What if your husband cheated with a co-worker (male or female) - and so you can both support your household - he continues to work with his AP 8+ hours a day, going out of town on biz trips, spending lunches together - in the park, in the car by the park, in the back seat of the car by the park?
> 
> But he says "I won't talk to the AP anymore, trust me" - you'll take him at his word?


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Yes, I know this, and yes, even though I'm pretty unhappy in my marriage, I haven't cheated on H. I don't think there's anything wrong with finding other people attractive, and I'm sure H has done this as well. But no, if H worked with a woman he had a fling with, I think I would be OK with that, as long as he was using protection. I've suggested that we could both go outside of our marriage to find satisfaction in this area, but he wouldn't hear of it. 




SunCMars said:


> There is a big difference here.* IF *is stated in the bolded above. Why should an innocent spouse [you] have to leave their job?
> 
> Ursula, *IF* your lips, boobs and nether regions remain pure; no man [after marriage] has enjoyed these treasures other than your dear husband, and you did not banter lust or romance a man at work, you would have no need or reason to leave your job. You know this. This is common sense.
> 
> ...


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

livelihood, shmivelihood. 
what is more important -marriage or career? Because really, we all could (mostly) earn a living working anywhere. 

I had an affair with a co-worker. He quit 6 weeks later - or my husband ran him out of town or something. Thank god because I couldn't stand seeing him and it aggravated husband to no end. I could have GLADLY quit - I OFFERED to quit. But it worked out that he did.

Husband had affairs with two women in the business world in this town. One, I think, works elsewhere. The other works 100 yards away from hubby. He's supposed to tell me if he sees her. I guess he hasn't OR, he's afraid to tell me. If he's lying I feel sorry for him that he must lie to stay married but that's his deal. If I find out he's been lying I'm done. I don't like (in fact I HATE) that one of them lives here. 

Speaking of Harley - I emailed him and my question about living here was read on his radio show (they sent me a book too!). Harley said to move, that the triggers are not something I should have to deal with. When hubby said that talking about the affairs emptied his love bank I said really? Do you really want to do everything Harley says in His Needs Her Needs? Because if that's the case then we should move, according to Harley. That shut him up. 

It's only by the Grace of God, my benevolent Mercy, his big **** and the money he makes that keep me here. Oh, and the family and love thing too. But if he actually worked with her? Done. Or multiple choice A)me. B)your stupid career. Your choice honey..


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Ursula said:


> And I couldn't agree more! No, we haven't cheated on each other that I know of, but we've talked about open marriages, and I've told H that he was welcome to go find it elsewhere if he wanted to, so no, I wouldn't make him quit his job; that's his livelihood, and my job is my livelihood.





Ursula said:


> Yes, I know this, and yes, even though I'm pretty unhappy in my marriage, I haven't cheated on H. I don't think there's anything wrong with finding other people attractive, and I'm sure H has done this as well. But no, if H worked with a woman he had a fling with, I think I would be OK with that, as long as he was using protection. I've suggested that we could both go outside of our marriage to find satisfaction in this area, but he wouldn't hear of it.


So why are you even on this thread??? Your contributions to the topic at hand are totally irrelevant if this is all true.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

** Exiting stage left **



Hope1964 said:


> So why are you even on this thread??? Your contributions to the topic at hand are totally irrelevant if this is all true.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

TaDor said:


> Point of that is... the Wayward knew they were doing something they know is WRONG... so they are going to have to suffer some consequences. They know that getting busted at work will be a problem.


Yes, but if those consequences are the need to quit their job and possibly be out of work for some period of time looking for a new job, won't you both be suffering the consequences? Between the temporary lose of income, the stress from that, and just the stress from looking for a job to begin with, you end up putting a lot more stress on an already stressful and tense situation.

The wayward never thinks of this so they don't care about it until they get caught and are forced to do it. And now you're stuck supporting a wayward spouse, wondering what that spouse is really doing all day while you're off at work, it just completely compounds the problem but doesn't necessarily end the affair or punish them for what they've done. I think if the wayward truly is remorseful and really does want to fix things, the true test of that is to leave them at their same job, make them see the other person everyday as a reminder of what they did. If they can do that and not go back to the affair then you know things may be able to work out, and if they can't do it and go back to the affair, then at least you find out rather quickly that they could never be trusted again and things just weren't meant to be.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

@Hope1964, you know, I was thinking about this the other night, and my thoughts on this thread are in fact relevant. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they should be discounted. So, I'm taking back my former "exiting stage left" post because you're just not playing fair.



Hope1964 said:


> So why are you even on this thread??? Your contributions to the topic at hand are totally irrelevant if this is all true.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Ursula said:


> @Hope1964, you know, I was thinking about this the other night, and my thoughts on this thread are in fact relevant. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they should be discounted. So, I'm taking back my former "exiting stage left" post because you're just not playing fair.


I am flattered that you were thinking about me the other night and felt the need to post back here today 

What I don't agree with is people who've never been cheated on trying to tell people who have how they should feel and act. Have you been cheated on? My question still stands - how is your input relevant, since you posted that you and your husband basically have the OK from each other to sleep with coworkers? That's like saying that my input is relevant to a couple struggling with the death of a child, because some day I might have a child of my own.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I never knew how painful infidelity could be... until it happened. So much of what you consider "your world" is torn down and set on fire by the cheater.
Having our son in an ICU unit was a painful scary moment for the two of us. Sure we had friends and family concerned that we may lose our child - but they didn't understand us - but things worked out fine in the end. In comparison, the affair has left a much larger emotional foot print on us as a couple... far more painful - in a different way. Of course I'd rather have a breakup/affair situation over the loss of a child. I don't know what its like to loose a kid and I never want to know.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

AtMyEnd said:


> Yes, but if those consequences are the need to quit their job and possibly be out of work for some period of time looking for a new job, won't you both be suffering the consequences? Between the temporary lose of income, the stress from that, and just the stress from looking for a job to begin with, you end up putting a lot more stress on an already stressful and tense situation.
> 
> The wayward never thinks of this so they don't care about it until they get caught and are forced to do it. And now you're stuck supporting a wayward spouse, wondering what that spouse is really doing all day while you're off at work, it just completely compounds the problem but doesn't necessarily end the affair or punish them for what they've done. *I think if the wayward truly is remorseful and really does want to fix things, the true test of that is to leave them at their same job, make them see the other person everyday as a reminder of what they did. * If they can do that and not go back to the affair then you know things may be able to work out, and if they can't do it and go back to the affair, then at least you find out rather quickly that they could never be trusted again and things just weren't meant to be.


Its fine that the WS continues to work with their AP... if the result is going to D anyway. If going for R, then it changes things. R doesn't start as long as the BS and AP are able to easily interact with each other. Unless you can get the BS to wear a go-pro camera all the time. Even with the failed attempt at R, my WW quite her job - like the very next day.

Letting the WS continue to work with their AP to "prove themselves" is silly and a setup for failure. The whole thing about the affair is that they have a chemical addiction to each other. It doesn't take much for the affair to rekindle.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

I've never been cheated on that I know of, but I also wasn't trying to tell people how they should act and feel. If that's how it was interpreted, I apologize, as that wasn't the way I meant it. H and I don't have permission to sleep with just coworkers, I've mentioned having an open marriage, which encompasses the general public, not just a certain group of people. And, even though I've never been through infidelity, that doesn't mean that I don't have thoughts on it, and that I'm not allowed to voice those thoughts. Anyone is able to form thoughts on any given subject, and they have the right to voice those thoughts.



Hope1964 said:


> I am flattered that you were thinking about me the other night and felt the need to post back here today
> 
> What I don't agree with is *people who've never been cheated on trying to tell people who have how they should feel and act.* Have you been cheated on? My question still stands - *how is your input relevant, since you posted that you and your husband basically have the OK from each other to sleep with coworkers?* That's like saying that my input is relevant to a couple struggling with the death of a child, because some day I might have a child of my own.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Ursula said:


> I've never been cheated on that I know of, but I also wasn't trying to tell people how they should act and feel. If that's how it was interpreted, I apologize, as that wasn't the way I meant it. H and I don't have permission to sleep with just coworkers, I've mentioned having an open marriage, which encompasses the general public, not just a certain group of people. And, even though I've never been through infidelity, that doesn't mean that I don't have thoughts on it, and that I'm not allowed to voice those thoughts. Anyone is able to form thoughts on any given subject, and they have the right to voice those thoughts.


Of course they are. You still haven't answered my question about relevancy, though.

People simply 'voicing their opinions' about what should happen after infidelity, when they haven't experienced it themselves, can confuse BS's who are looking for a way to get through the most painful thing they've ever experienced. At best. At worst, it can result in them taking really really bad advice. Like not making the WS quit their job a dealbreaker when they cheated with a coworker.

You're not the only one who does that here, unfortunately.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

When people give advice or share thoughts on a public forum, the OP can take whatever they find helpful out of that advice/those thoughts. The rest is moot. If OP garnered something useful out of what I typed, that's great; if not, they can choose to move on from anything I said and onto something that helps them more. That's where relevancy comes into play. And just because you find something silly or not helpful, doesn't mean that everyone else will. Not all of my advice is stellar, no, but neither is yours.

By the way, is there a post that I can visit that will tell me what all these acronyms mean? To me BS means bull****ter, and WS means working spouse.



Hope1964 said:


> Of course they are. You still haven't answered *my question about relevancy*, though.
> 
> People simply 'voicing their opinions' about what should happen after infidelity, when they haven't experienced it themselves, can confuse BS's who are looking for a way to get through the most painful thing they've ever experienced. At best. At worst, it can result in them taking really really bad advice. Like not making the WS quit their job a dealbreaker when they cheated with a coworker.
> 
> You're not the only one who does that here, unfortunately.


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## Dr. Stupid (Dec 8, 2016)

This thread is great! It's "inconvenient" to leave a job after bumping uglies with a coworker. I'd never ask a cheating spouse to quit their job. They can "inconvenience" themselves right out of the house and watch for their divorce papers when they arrive at the office. 

They can keep their bloody job. :wink2:

I've been through quite a few relationships before I met the love of my life. I'm a "leave no stone unturned" kind of girl. I got to know my boyfriends really well, before I committed to a relationship, sex, etc. If I even caught a whiff that someone I was dating cheated on anyone in the past, it was "Nice knowing you. You know where the door is". I don't need that character issue in my life, even if they've "changed", or "learned their lesson". Someone else can test out that theory. There were plenty of hot, educated, honest men out there who turned me on. 

So the idea of someone having to leave their job because they're horny, attention-seeking, leg-humpers who can't establish boundaries won't ever be an issue. :grin2:


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

TaDor said:


> Its fine that the WS continues to work with their AP... if the result is going to D anyway. If going for R, then it changes things. R doesn't start as long as the BS and AP are able to easily interact with each other. Unless you can get the BS to wear a go-pro camera all the time. Even with the failed attempt at R, my WW quite her job - like the very next day.
> 
> Letting the WS continue to work with their AP to "prove themselves" is silly and a setup for failure. The whole thing about the affair is that they have a chemical addiction to each other. It doesn't take much for the affair to rekindle.


It's not a "setup for failure", it is the true test of if the WS can and wants to reconcile. If the WS truly is remorseful and truly wants to reconcile, it shouldn't matter if they're still around the other person. Would you rather the person quit their job to get away from the other person in order to not see them, work on getting over the affair while still thinking about if they truly want to fix their marriage, and then randomly run into the other person months later? What happens then when after months of not seeing them, most likely still thinking about them and missing them, and then seeing them again? Every thought about them will come rushing back all at once, instead of having to see the other person everyday, not speaking to them and letting the feelings die off over time.

Yes I do agree with no contact, except in a work or social environment. All complete no contact will do is repress the feelings, and if there is a random run in, those feelings can just explode again.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Ursula said:


> When people give advice or share thoughts on a public forum, the OP can take whatever they find helpful out of that advice/those thoughts. The rest is moot. If OP garnered something useful out of what I typed, that's great; if not, they can choose to move on from anything I said and onto something that helps them more. That's where relevancy comes into play. And just because you find something silly or not helpful, doesn't mean that everyone else will. Not all of my advice is stellar, no, but neither is yours.
> 
> By the way, is there a post that I can visit that will tell me what all these acronyms mean? To me BS means bull****ter, and WS means working spouse.


What you don't realize, because you've never been cheated on, is that BS's are EXTREMELY vulnerable when they've just found out they've been cheated on. You also don't realize that pretty much everything that people instinctively want to do when they find out they've been cheated on will not get them the result they really want.

So not only is telling people what you would do irrelevant because you have no idea what you'd do, but it can also lead BS's down the wrong road with disastrous results for them. Sure the OP can take away what they want - that's exactly why I make it a point to call people out who really have no business posting on BS's threads.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

AtMyEnd said:


> It's not a "setup for failure", it is the true test of if the WS can and wants to reconcile. If the WS truly is remorseful and truly wants to reconcile, it shouldn't matter if they're still around the other person. Would you rather the person quit their job to get away from the other person in order to not see them, work on getting over the affair while still thinking about if they truly want to fix their marriage, and then randomly run into the other person months later? What happens then when after months of not seeing them, most likely still thinking about them and missing them, and then seeing them again? Every thought about them will come rushing back all at once, instead of having to see the other person everyday, not speaking to them and letting the feelings die off over time.
> 
> Yes I do agree with no contact, except in a work or social environment. All complete no contact will do is repress the feelings, and if there is a random run in, those feelings can just explode again.


I think you need to look at the affair as an addiction and the "fix" needs to be squashed right away.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> It's not a "setup for failure", it is the true test of if the WS can and wants to reconcile. If the WS truly is remorseful and truly wants to reconcile, it shouldn't matter if they're still around the other person.


Sorry if you already answered this, but have you been cheated on?


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> Sorry if you already answered this, but have you been cheated on?


Not with a physical affair, that I know of. I had caught my wife texting all day everyday with another attorney that she didn't work with but was part of the same attorney circle, let's call it, as her. Yes I told her that if I found out she had any communication via text, phone or email that it was a deal breaker but I never told her that she wasn't allowed to be around him in a social setting. Not that I didn't want her to not feel awkward about the situation, but it would've been awkward and raised a lot of questions within her work circle if all of a sudden she wasn't at certain things or suddenly left any time he showed up.

Since all that happened, I know for sure that she has not been in contact with him, or has really seen him much, but she has told me that she's been places and he was there as well. Some things are unavoidable and could raise questions possibly hurt a career if they got out. Which is my point that as much as a marriage is and should be more important then a job, any kind of situation that could damage a persons reputation and end up hurting their career could potentially have longer lasting repercussions that could ultimately do more damage to the marriage than an affair.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

katies said:


> I think you need to look at the affair as an addiction and the "fix" needs to be squashed right away.


But is no contact and isolation from the affair partner really a "fix". Yes the affair and everything about it needs to be squashed as soon as possible, but is a complete cut off the right way to do it? Look at any other addiction, yes a person quits cold turkey, goes through withdrawals and everything else associated with it, but what happens the first time that person is exposed to their former addiction again? The want for it comes right back, and some times stronger than it was before they quit. If the person is mentally ready to be around the addiction it's one thing, but if they're not, they could jump right back to it and in a worse way than before.

It's actually better for an addict to continue to be exposed to their former addiction in small doses, continually reminding themselves what could happen if they go back to it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> But is no contact and isolation from the affair partner really a "fix". Yes the affair and everything about it needs to be squashed as soon as possible, but is a complete cut off the right way to do it? Look at any other addiction, yes a person quits cold turkey, goes through withdrawals and everything else associated with it, but what happens the first time that person is exposed to their former addiction again? The want for it comes right back, and some times stronger than it was before they quit. If the person is mentally ready to be around the addiction it's one thing, but if they're not, they could jump right back to it and in a worse way than before.
> 
> It's actually better for an addict to continue to be exposed to their former addiction in small doses, continually reminding themselves what could happen if they go back to it.


Yes, affair partners are typically like a drug for the WS, who was unable to resist previously and will likely be unable to resist again. I've heard of instances where one look can rekindle the entire thing, only to be taken further underground. Most decent people do not go looking for an Affair- it happens in familiar proximity when chemicals are released (and the spouse has poor or no boundaries). This is why Affair partners are usually a step down from the WS's wife or husband. It isn't planned. This is also why many marital coaches like Dr. Harley of Marriage Builders have come to the conclusion that opposite sex friends are a risk in marriage. Even if the spouse has NO intention of ever having an affair, when neurochemicals like Oxytocin, dopamine, and others that signal lust, attraction, and attachment, it can be very difficult to resist. Putting a spouse who has already shown to release those chemicals around their AP in physical space near that AP is risking the marriage.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I look at their willingness to quit their job as a barometer for how much they really mean it when they say they want to R. Same with polygraphs, getting rid of things like a car they had affair sex in, that type of thing. There are many things that a WS can and should be doing - should be VOLUNTEERING to do - to let the BS know they're serious, and it's up to the BS what they want to take farther I guess. If you're fine with her still working with the AP, and it isn't taking up a ton of energy for you to verify that she's behaving herself, and she IS willing to give in on everything else, then more power to you. 

For you it might work. For most others that cheat with a coworker, it won't.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Yes, affair partners are typically like a drug for the WS, who was unable to resist previously and will likely be unable to resist again. I've heard of instances where one look can rekindle the entire thing, only to be taken further underground. Most decent people do not go looking for an Affair- it happens in familiar proximity when chemicals are released (and the spouse has poor or no boundaries). This is why Affair partners are usually a step down from the WS's wife or husband. It isn't planned. This is also why many marital coaches like Dr. Harley of Marriage Builders have come to the conclusion that opposite sex friends are a risk in marriage. Even if the spouse has NO intention of ever having an affair, when neurochemicals like Oxytocin, dopamine, and others that signal lust, attraction, and attachment, it can be very difficult to resist. Putting a spouse who has already shown to release those chemicals around their AP in physical space near that AP is risking the marriage.


Right, and that's exactly my point. If you pull the addiction away from the person completely all of a sudden like that, if and when the person randomly comes in contact or is around that addiction again by chance, all those feelings can come rushing back in an instant, no matter how long they have been away from it. And unless the affair partner lives in another city or state far away, chances of them randomly bumping into them somewhere is entirely possible.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> Right, and that's exactly my point. If you pull the addiction away from the person completely all of a sudden like that, if and when the person randomly comes in contact or is around that addiction again by chance, all those feelings can come rushing back in an instant, no matter how long they have been away from it. And unless the affair partner lives in another city or state far away, chances of them randomly bumping into them somewhere is entirely possible.


This is why Dr. Harley also tells recovering spouses to relocate if the AP lives in the same town/city. In his experience, couples who do not take precautions to completely eliminate contact very often restart the affair. Removing this major obstacle gives the couple the best chance of success.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Like I said @Hope1964, people will take out of it what they will. If you don't agree with me, it's okay, really. See your post entitled "HOLY effing PC police" where many people, including me, don't agree with you. You aren't eager to change your opinion there, and it's okay. Even though we live in the same province, I don't know you, and don't need you to agree with me. 

I'm not going to change my opinion for you, nor am I going to stop posting where I like. This is a public forum, and people are free to voice themselves if they feel they have something to add, or they feel they would like to post. 

Telling people what I would do is irrelevant if you would like to think of it that way, yes. To me though, no, it's not irrelevant. And yes, I do know what I would do in a situation like that because I know myself quite well in fact.

And us arguing about what's right and what's wrong isn't getting us anywhere, nor is it helping the OP, so let's just agree to disagree here. Have a good day! :smile2:



Hope1964 said:


> What you don't realize, because you've never been cheated on, is that BS's are EXTREMELY vulnerable when they've just found out they've been cheated on. You also don't realize that pretty much everything that people instinctively want to do when they find out they've been cheated on will not get them the result they really want.
> 
> So not only is telling people what you would do irrelevant because you have no idea what you'd do, but it can also lead BS's down the wrong road with disastrous results for them. Sure the OP can take away what they want - that's exactly why I make it a point to call people out who really have no business posting on BS's threads.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Ursula said:


> Like I said @Hope1964, people will take out of it what they will. If you don't agree with me, it's okay, really. See your post entitled "HOLY effing PC police" where many people, including me, don't agree with you. You aren't eager to change your opinion there, and it's okay. Even though we live in the same province, I don't know you, and don't need you to agree with me.
> 
> I'm not going to change my opinion for you, nor am I going to stop posting where I like. This is a public forum, and people are free to voice themselves if they feel they have something to add, or they feel they would like to post.
> 
> ...


No one's telling you to stop posting. I asked what relevancy your comments on this thread have - you still haven't answered that.

Carry on posting whatever you like wherever you like - I have no problem with that. Expect to be called out when you post rubbish, though. Especially when you post on stuff in CWI. I'll add you to my list of people who have not been cheated on and whose posts need to be pointed out as such then.


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## stixx (Mar 20, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> Expect to be called out when you post rubbish, though. Especially when you post on stuff in CWI. I'll add you to my list of people who have not been cheated on and whose posts need to be pointed out as such then.


 @Hope1964 You can officially add me to your list of people who haven't been cheated on whose posts you feel the obsessive need to point out as if you're some sort of "Forum Police Officer" who thinks people who haven't been cheated on somehow dispense inferior advice. 

P.S. Just because you don't agree with another person doesn't mean what they post is rubbish. 

Your entire curse filled ranting thread about your husband being "unfairly" disciplined is filled with tons of your posts that are so inaccurate they belong on the garbage pile as well, and there are LOTS of posters that openly disagree with you as I have done but they don't resort to name calling as you have done.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

I did answer that earlier this morning; see post #89 on this thread!

So, instead of wasting your time referring to your list of posters only to point out that you think their posts are rubbish, and starting arguments, why don't you just move on from them? I can't even imagine having so much time on my hands to be able to do that; that must be very nice to have so much spare time!



Hope1964 said:


> No one's telling you to stop posting. *I asked what relevancy your comments on this thread have - you still haven't answered that*.
> 
> Carry on posting whatever you like wherever you like - I have no problem with that. Expect to be called out when you post rubbish, though. Especially when you post on stuff in CWI. I'll add you to my list of people who have not been cheated on and whose posts need to be pointed out as such then.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

stixx said:


> @Hope1964 You can officially add me to your list of people who haven't been cheated on whose posts you feel the obsessive need to point out as if you're some sort of "Forum Police Officer" who thinks people who haven't been cheated on somehow dispense inferior advice.
> 
> P.S. Just because you don't agree with another person doesn't mean what they post is rubbish.
> 
> Your entire curse filled ranting thread about your husband being "unfairly" disciplined is filled with tons of your posts that are so inaccurate they belong on the garbage pile as well, and there are LOTS of posters that openly disagree with you as I have done but they don't resort to name calling as you have done.


If you think I've called someone a name then please report me.

I will add you to my list, thanks


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

stixx said:


> @Hope1964 You can officially add me to your list of people who haven't been cheated on whose posts you feel the obsessive need to point out as if you're some sort of "Forum Police Officer" who thinks people who haven't been cheated on somehow dispense inferior advice.
> 
> P.S. Just because you don't agree with another person doesn't mean what they post is rubbish.
> 
> Your entire curse filled ranting thread about your husband being "unfairly" disciplined is filled with tons of your posts that are so inaccurate they belong on the garbage pile as well, and there are LOTS of posters that openly disagree with you as I have done but they *don't resort to name calling* as you have done.


:allhail:

This, so many times over, and the name-calling is so childish. And huzzah, I finally got to use the "all hail" emoticon @stixx!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

stixx said:


> She said she was FIRED from her job a few months ago, that explains the free time.
> 
> She refused to answer to the reasons my guess it was insubordination but it could have just been goofing off and spending too much time on the forums.


Again, you're wrong. I said no such thing. 

Look, if you two want to run around quoting and mentioning me and finding fault with what I post and arguing and posting misinformation to BS's then by all means. (and posting just as much as me in the process by the way LOL) You're flattering yourselves if you think I seek you out. Have fun!


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Ahhhh, that could explain a lot. 



stixx said:


> She said she was FIRED from her job a few months ago, that explains the free time.
> 
> She refused to answer to the reasons my guess it was insubordination but it could have just been goofing off and spending too much time on the forums.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> how easy do you really think it is to just quit your job in an instant and move on to a new job in your field making the same money you were?


A hell of a lot easier than going through the emotional and financial burden of a divorce.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> This is why Dr. Harley also tells recovering spouses to relocate if the AP lives in the same town/city. In his experience, couples who do not take precautions to completely eliminate contact very often restart the affair. Removing this major obstacle gives the couple the best chance of success.


But still the underlying question is, is it worth uprooting your life, family, career and whatever else on a gamble of if the WS is going to ever cheat again or not?


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> But still the underlying question is, is it worth uprooting your life, family, career and whatever else on a gamble of if the WS is going to ever cheat again or not?


I think a better question would be "If you want to save your marriage, are you willing to do what an expert recommends as what he has deemed a necessary part of recovery, based on his clinical experience helping thousands of couples recover from affairs, for the best chances of success?" Personally, I wouldn't agree to reconcile otherwise (if at all), but YMMV.

My understanding is that the marriages who are able to recover do best with a plan. Winging it and relying on our own emotions clearly doesn't work when a WS's emotions are what got the marriage into trouble in the first place.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

BetrayedDad said:


> A hell of a lot easier than going through the emotional and financial burden of a divorce.


So what if the WS quits their job, is now bringing in no money while they look for a new job or brings in much less because they couldn't find an equal paying job and you still end up divorcing? Now the BS is not only stuck with have having had to support the family on their salary alone for however long, but now they'll end up being possibly stuck with an alimony payment or a larger alimony payment then they should, on top of all the other expenses that would be paid for out of the couples joint funds which the WS hadn't contributed to for however long. The BS gets screwed harder and longer in the end.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> But still the underlying question is, is it worth uprooting your life, family, career and whatever else on a gamble of if the WS is going to ever cheat again or not?


If the alternative is that the BS spends all their time worrying and triggering and snooping. I will repost this in case it got lost in all the kerfuffle:

I look at their willingness to quit their job as a barometer for how much they really mean it when they say they want to R. Same with polygraphs, getting rid of things like a car they had affair sex in, that type of thing. There are many things that a WS can and should be doing - should be VOLUNTEERING to do - to let the BS know they're serious, and it's up to the BS what they want to take farther I guess. If you're fine with her still working with the AP, and it isn't taking up a ton of energy for you to verify that she's behaving herself, and she IS willing to give in on everything else, then more power to you. 

For you it might work. For most others that cheat with a coworker, it won't.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> So what if the WS quits their job, is now bringing in no money while they look for a new job or brings in much less because they couldn't find an equal paying job and you still end up divorcing? Now the BS is not only stuck with have having had to support the family on their salary alone for however long, but now they'll end up being possibly stuck with an alimony payment or a larger alimony payment then they should, on top of all the other expenses that would be paid for out of the couples joint funds which the WS hadn't contributed to for however long. The BS gets screwed harder and longer in the end.


Only one 'what if'. And I don't think they should just up and quit - but they SHOULD volunteer to do so, and they should start looking.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> So what if the WS quits their job, is now bringing in no money while they look for a new job or brings in much less because they couldn't find an equal paying job and you still end up divorcing? Now the BS is not only stuck with have having had to support the family on their salary alone for however long, but now they'll end up being possibly stuck with an alimony payment or a larger alimony payment then they should, on top of all the other expenses that would be paid for out of the couples joint funds which the WS hadn't contributed to for however long. The BS gets screwed harder and longer in the end.


Since many affairs happen with coworkers, the WS in many cases has already compromised their security in their current place of employment. By your rationale, the recovering couple shouldn't do anything to upset the AP because if they are a coworker, they could go directly to HR and cause the WS to lose their job and financially impact the family. This could happen at any moment. A BS has no room to engage in negotiations with an AP and has to do what they must to preserve their dignity and self-respect, even if that means the family must relocate, and the WS must find a new job. This is what a WS does to his/her family when they engage in an affair. It sucks for everyone involved, and it's taking a HUGE financial risk that impacts the entire family. That's why affairs are the most selfish thing a person can do to their family. In ALL cases, removing any possibility of contact with the AP offers the recovering marriage and their family the most security, though admittedly this is limited due to the affair in the first place.

Bottom line: don't have an affair. You are risking your family's financial and emotional security.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> So what if the WS quits their job, is now bringing in no money while they look for a new job or brings in much less because they couldn't find an equal paying job and you still end up divorcing? Now the BS is not only stuck with have having had to support the family on their salary alone for however long, but now they'll end up being possibly stuck with an alimony payment or a larger alimony payment then they should, on top of all the other expenses that would be paid for out of the couples joint funds which the WS hadn't contributed to for however long. The BS gets screwed harder and longer in the end.


1) I think most people when they say quit mean "start looking for another job in earnest" not "resign immediately". The end result being they separate.

2) To allow the WS to continue to maintain employment in such a toxic environment is like continuing to let an alcoholic work in a bar. How long until a relapse?

3) Personally, I'd prefer poor and a faithful spouse versus rich and her bouncing up and down on someone else's penis on a regular basis. Call me crazy.....


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

BetrayedDad said:


> 1) I think most people when they say quit mean "start looking for another job in earnest" not "resign immediately". The end result being they separate.
> 
> 2) To allow the WS to continue to maintain employment in such a toxic environment is like continuing to let an alcoholic work in a bar. How long until a relapse?
> 
> 3) Personally, I'd prefer poor and a faithful spouse versus rich and her bouncing up and down on someone else's penis on a regular basis. Call me crazy.....


I don't know, I think going from well off to poor because of reconciling with a WS would create much more animosity and resentment than anything else, and lead straight to a divorce.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> I don't know, I think going from well off to poor because of reconciling with a WS would create much more animosity and resentment than anything else, and lead straight to a divorce.


The goal isn't to avoid divorce but rather to recover a damaged marriage. The recovery is done through the reestablishment of trust which is done by setting an environment that minimizes situations that would result in questions, opportunity, mistrust and jealousy.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

meson said:


> The goal isn't to avoid divorce but rather to recover a damaged marriage. The recovery is done through the reestablishment of trust which is done by setting an environment that minimizes situations that would result in questions, opportunity, mistrust and jealousy.


So basically isolate the WS and yourself from the rest of the world. If the WS cheated once, there's always a chance and opportunity it will happen again and that's just fact. And with that fact, leads to questioning where they really are, what they're doing and who they're with when you're not together which causes mistrust. And the mistrust and chance of another affair equals jealousy. There is no real way to solve the problem and be sure the problem is solved


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> I don't know, I think going from well off to poor because of reconciling with a WS would create much more animosity and resentment than anything else, and lead straight to a divorce.


And if it does then you SHOULD be divorcing. If the WS RESENTS proving to the BS that they are truly remorseful then to hell with them.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> So basically isolate the WS and yourself from the rest of the world. If the WS cheated once, there's always a chance and opportunity it will happen again and that's just fact. And with that fact, leads to questioning where they really are, what they're doing and who they're with when you're not together which causes mistrust. And the mistrust and chance of another affair equals jealousy. There is no real way to solve the problem and be sure the problem is solved


No it's about minimizing contact with someone that a spouse has develope feelings for. Those feelings need to be extinguished through minimizing contact in a way that helps both spouses recover. 

I certainly don't advocate isolation from the opposite sex. In fact I am much more of an advocate of OSFs than most TAMers.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

AtMyEnd said:


> So basically isolate the WS and yourself from the rest of the world. If the WS cheated once, there's always a chance and opportunity it will happen again and that's just fact. And with that fact, leads to questioning where they really are, what they're doing and who they're with when you're not together which causes mistrust. And the mistrust and chance of another affair equals jealousy. There is no real way to solve the problem and be sure the problem is solved


You remind me of my husband. Everything is black and white to him. If I tell him that I like something (or hate something) then he takes that to mean that I absolutely ADORE it and would give ANYTHING IN THE WORLD to posses it and he has to run right out RIGHT NOW and get it for me (or that he had DAMNED WELL NEVER EVER EVER bring it up EVER AGAIN and I will kick his ass if he ever does)

Also, you can come up with all the what if scenarios you want to, and they'll all be possible. But in the process you're basically hobbling yourself.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

AtMyEnd said:


> I don't know, I think going from well off to poor because of reconciling with a WS would create much more animosity and resentment than anything else, and lead straight to a divorce.


Well then I guess it's a catch 22:

1) Spouse stays at the job, continues to cheat on you behind your back and you end up divorced.

2) You force the spouse to quit their job. You become destitute and resentful and you end up divorced.

If the outcome is the same, then maybe the best choice is to just save yourself the years of mental anguish and just divorce them immediately.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> You remind me of my husband. Everything is black and white to him. If I tell him that I like something (or hate something) then he takes that to mean that I absolutely ADORE it and would give ANYTHING IN THE WORLD to posses it and he has to run right out RIGHT NOW and get it for me (or that he had DAMNED WELL NEVER EVER EVER bring it up EVER AGAIN and I will kick his ass if he ever does)
> 
> Also, you can come up with all the what if scenarios you want to, and they'll all be possible. But in the process you're basically hobbling yourself.


I know we can come up with all the scenarios in the world, that's the point of the entire thread. There is no real right or wrong of how to deal with the situation and there is no black or white. That's the point, you read all these other threads and see all these comments about how the WS needs to do this or that immediately or it's divorce. All these threads have such black or white comments and comments that don't question the "what if's" and just jump straight to "don't bother, just divorce, you'll be happier". That doesn't fix anything, it doesn't solve the problem, and the reality of it is that no matter what you do or try or propose or whatever else, there is no definitive advise any of can give on another's situation. All we can do is tell our stories and hope other learn from them, and maybe something we say to someone will help. But there is no black and white or right and wrong in any of this, and that's what people keep seem to be missing.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Quitting the job allows for the chemicals of limerance to wear off. Then, the WS can think clearly and see what an a$$ they've been instead of being in lurve with the AP.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> So basically isolate the WS and yourself from the rest of the world. If the WS cheated once, there's always a chance and opportunity it will happen again and that's just fact. And with that fact, leads to questioning where they really are, what they're doing and who they're with when you're not together which causes mistrust. And the mistrust and chance of another affair equals jealousy. There is no real way to solve the problem and be sure the problem is solved


Nope, just isolate the WS from their affair partner so the marriage can heal and recover. Unless the WS is a serial cheat, then yes, if the BS is willing to stay through that (God help them), the WS will need to likely isolate themselves from the OS by whatever means necessary. I've heard of a spouse moving to a home-based business and couples going into business together to protect the marriage from more damage.

I think that if recovering the marriage is your number 1 priority, you'll do whatever it takes to make that happen. When we resign ourselves to only one choice, quit and be poor or stay and see the AP, we are really limiting ourselves. There are many alternatives that don't include a WS still in contact with their AP. Are they easy? No. Convenient? No. But nothing about recovering from an affair is going to be easy, which is why many choose to D instead.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@AtMyEnd : you are trying so hard to prove your point based only on your opinion of a situation that has NOT happened to you. You say "it makes no difference" - but there are dozens / hundreds of people here, in which almost ALL of them have real-life experiences and relationship EXPERTS (doctors) - that all say otherwise.


Your wife was only doing inappropriate communication with another lawyer that she'll cross paths with because of their profession. Okay, she avoids him and of course no lunch dates. That would be very different if she was have such talks with another lawyer or person in the same law firm. As a lawyer, its easy to find work in another firm or on her own.

Point is, you seem to think people can turn off their feelings on the dime. if you think otherwise, you are quite wrong - except concerning those who are strictly in it for the sex... it seems that you are likely to justify having an affair yourself more so than your wife, since all you have to do is ignore the other person.


With only about 4 weeks of not seeing her AP, we bumped into each other and all hell broke out lose. Wife turned stupid, her fantasy feelings and ideas burst out and everything she did was stupid, even with her sisters and mother telling her she was being stupid. She ended up in jail because she couldn't think straight. So yeah, if you or your wife are having an EA/PA with someone that is a co-worker... "just don't talk" = not going to happen. Maybe 1 out of 100,000 would that possibly work (that number I pulled out of thin air). What helps to kill an affair is the sunlight and reality of their actions.

Those who are cheating, their affair partner effects their brains like crack. You'd be a fool if you have a person who hasn't touch crack in months, put them in a room with a bag of crack on the other side - and then somehow be *surprised* that he's on crack in 30 minutes. Having an affair becomes an addiction. It effects the brain the same way. It takes months~years for the effects of their AP wears off. If the couple wishes to SAVE the marriage - then they have to work at it... and the WS working with the AP *IS NOT* the way to save your marriage.

Put in the 2~4 weeks notice, look for another job.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

TaDor said:


> @AtMyEnd : you are trying so hard to prove your point based only on your opinion of a situation that has NOT happened to you. You say "it makes no difference" - but there are dozens / hundreds of people here, in which almost ALL of them have real-life experiences and relationship EXPERTS (doctors) - that all say otherwise.
> 
> 
> Your wife was only doing inappropriate communication with another lawyer that she'll cross paths with because of their profession. Okay, she avoids him and of course no lunch dates. That would be very different if she was have such talks with another lawyer or person in the same law firm. As a lawyer, its easy to find work in another firm or on her own.
> ...


What you just said is exactly what I wrote in another post. That you can't just turn it off and how if you cut all contact and happen to run into the AP that all the feeling can come rushing back uncontrollably.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

AtMyEnd said:


> What you just said is exactly what I wrote in another post. That you can't just turn it off and how if you cut all contact and happen to run into the AP that all the feeling can come rushing back uncontrollably.


Uh no. I and others are talking about solutions - not the obvious fact that people have feelings. You don't know what you are talking about. Letting the WS continue to work with the AP *DOES NOT WORK* if the goal is to save the marriage. I had to think about my own history a bit... yeah, I told WW and AP that anything more than being co-workers was not allowed. They had both "agreed". This was *BEFORE* I came here and learned much more about infidelity... everything I was doing, was the typical wrong thing to do.

The result is that the two of them became depressed, working together but not supposed to have an EA/PA. Then more resentment on her part. It becomes Romeo and Juliet syndrome - where being "kept away" made their "love stronger". Things got worse by the week until she wanted to break up... she needed her "happiness". Her toy was there, but not supposed to play with it.

Letting your wife (for example) to work side by side with someone she has been having sex with for months - but have told her "no"... doesn't work. Why should it? She already cheated, already was doing something she shouldn't have been doing... and you telling her "no" to her face changes what? It doesn't show her willingness to save the marriage.

Willing to lose / change your job... shows you are willing to sacrifice to save the marriage. Otherwise... keep playing ball.
*The *ONLY* people who are agreeing with you on this... are the ones who have not been cheated on.* Think about that.

Hope you don't give that advice to friends... considering that experts would tell them and you - that you are WRONG.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

TaDor said:


> The *ONLY* people who are agreeing with you on this... are the ones who have not been cheated on. Think about that.


QFT


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