# Can you rebuild your marriage without communication?



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Dysfunctional Communicator

There’s a reason the tongue is referred to as the strongest muscle of the body. 
In the move Fireproof, guy 1 is counseling guy 2 who is having marital problems. He says something like “a woman is like a rosebud. If you water and nurture her, she blooms into a beautiful flower. But, if you abuse and neglect it, it withers and dies.”
Well, I am guilty of the latter. My tongue has gotten me into the situation where W despises me and refuses to talk directly with me anymore. I am genuinely ashamed and sorry for that doing that and causing this situation over the years. How do I ‘mend that fence’?

How did we get here? Well, W is very intelligent and negotiates me under the table. When we have issues and we talk about them, I genuinely can only come up with 2-3 reasons for my position and I can cover them in a few minutes. She, on the other hand, will have many more reasons and can/will talk about them for a long time, at which point, I’ll say something smart ass and hurtful. 
She’ll ask a question and I’ll give my best answer, but she feels it didn’t answer the question and it annoys her if I respond with a question. And in my frustration, I’ll say something stupid and hurtful that has caused her heart for me to ‘wither and die’ 

I am new to this forum stuff, so please bear with me.

Guys, what do you do to negotiate with a wife in similar situations?

Ladies, what can I do to prove my sincerity in working to change my communication skillset and earn her love back? Is it possible for a woman to forgive a jerk like that and love him again?

Desperate to communicate and be a better husband,


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

CRex said:


> W is very intelligent and negotiates me under the table.


Care to elaborate on this. Give us some examples of how you conversations go in your house.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Two weeks ago, we learned our son was behind in his homework at a private school that he wanted and wants to attend. We had told him at the start that he needed tin invest like we were. She told me of this as all three of us were driving to an evening function an hour away and we kindof discussed. She wanted to pull him out of that school then and there. 
Asked my opinion, I said I thought 8-9 weeks into the school year was too soon to make that sort of decision. 
At the family function, I asked her brother and sister-in-law how they handled a similar situation with their son. They, too, thought similar to me.
We discussed more on the way home ( another hour long drive ) but all I had was the same 2-3 reasons. Once home, she continued more discussion of it. She said the was upset that I had mentioned in front of her bro and sister-in-law as well.
Tired and exhausted my stupidity led to say 'the three rational minds (of the four) landed on 8-9 weeks was too soon to change schools.' 

In other conversations, I always have only a couple of reasons for her several/many. 
And simply, I can only go an hour or two on a topic. I can't go all night and into the next day as we sometimes do. 
That help?
Thanks,


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Well first you need to stop just taking cheap shots and making the hurtful comments. Some of it does depend on just what your are discussing and are you just trying to win the debate or are you trying to solve the issue.

In my relationship I was always the one who could rattle off a list of why I was right and typically my spouse became quite angry because I had "all the answers". She would blow up then quit talking about it. We didnt solve the problem, we just quit talking about it.

In my case, she needed to be less emotional because I didnt want to fight, and I needed to listen better to hear what she was saying instead of just hearing the yelling if that makes sense. Your spouse doesnt want to talk to you right now because you get emotional and try to win with insults. 

Why dont you actually try and address the problem with her about why you fall back on insults and hurtful comments. You know what your communication problem that you have, correct the problem and ask for her help. Show her that you want to fix a weakness in yourself which you know you have.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Thanks, Honcho, 

That is sage and wise advice. 

I am working on that. My smartelic (sp?) mouth is an issue. I know that. I am working on that. I am pretty calm most of the time, I believe.

Respect and honesty are very important to my wife. Knowing that, I am honest and work hard to be respectful. However, I don't process things as fast as she does. She gets frustrated when I don't respond quickly to her question(s). Usually, I am thinking and/or have already offered my one or two thoughts on the topic. And, for example, I find it difficult to maintain eye contact, not roll my eyes etc, after we've gone over the same issue for a long time into the wee hours of the night sometimes, when I have to get up at 5:30 to work.

So, I understand and agree with you, and acknowledge my difficulty in negotiating successfully. So, I am looking for the method that will work for me to avoid such disrespect.

It's not about winning an argument. It's about understanding each other's perspective and coming to a mutually agreeable solution. Yet, sometimes that is very hard. How do you find a mutually agreeable solution to the issue of sex when one party says never and the other is looking for some amount greater than zero (never)?

Thanks


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

I invite my wife to engage and participate in this thread as (1) I wish to be honest and fair (2) it should be safe way to communicate and (3) I desire her thoughts and (4) of course desire to rebuild our relationship.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Ok, you tossing out smart aleck comments is not the right way to respond to things, yes I agree. However, it sounds like your wife insists on arguing things to death in order to wear you down to her way of thinking. I think you hit a breaking point and say those things out of sheer frustration and just wanting it to end! (Read, for her to shut the hell up) It isnt necessary to spend hours and hours hashing out every argument, that doesnt mean that it is anymore meaningful than one you spend 20 minutes working on. She needs to learn to back off, and you need to learn how to cut the arguments down to a reasonable time without being snarky. Try saying, look, we have been at this for two hours and are making no headway...lets let this go, think things over, and come back to it later on tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

3X nailed it. I know this because I used to be just like your wife. I'm very intelligent, I think fast and I can argue my husband under the table. And if that didn't work then yes I'd wear him down until I got what I wanted. I read this thread to him and he cringed because he's so been here with me.

I asked him what he would advice you and he said you needed to learn how to set healthy boundaries, how to say things directly like "I'm not okay with that" and how to yes cut arguments down to a reasonable time BEFORE you get frustrated.

How we fixed this was we ended up in marriage counseling where I began to learn to back down and learned that I didn't have to be right all the time. I learned to listen and take his opinion seriously. Just because I'm able to talk him under the table doesn't make it okay to do so. That made me arrogant and pushy.

I'm still a faster thinker but I have learned to STOP and let him gather his thoughts. We end conversations when we realize they aren't going anywhere. We put an end to midnight conversations. If we completely can't agree we go back to our marriage counselor and she helps us mediate and find a middle ground. We take those lessons and apply them to other debates that come up. This is a skill like any other. If we can learn it so can the two of you. 

I just pray she's as interested in fixing this as you are. I think this would be hard to fix if you don't have her on board. She's the stronger of the two of you verbally and it will be difficult for her to let you "win". It was for me at first which is why I'm grateful I sought counseling to fix this.


----------



## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Not having communication with your spouse is like trying to eat an apple without chewing. In other word, you cant.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

WOW, good advice though I don't think she consciously tries to 'wear me down......', but I like the approach.
Thanks, I'll give t a try.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

WOW, good advice though I don't think she consciously tries to 'wear me down......', but I like the approach.
Thanks, I'll give t a try.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

THanks, Mavash. I appreciate that wisdom.
We have tried several/many counselors over the years, but we're still dysfunctional. I'm sad to say that I am a slow learner. We have read countless books over the years. Se can tell you several points from each book and cite differences between them. I can only say I read them, they made sense, and I agree with them, but I can't cite points of each o differences.
Thanks again!


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

6301,
I agree. That's why I'm pursuing some avenue to improve that skillset.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> Not having communication with your spouse is like trying to eat an apple without chewing. In other word, you cant.


 Sure you can! It's called apple sauce. 

I told H I wouldn't converse directly with him anymore, that we needed to have a third party present, because his treatment of me during our conversations is too disrespectful. If he wants to pursue this avenue, I'm game, though I'll admit I'm doubtful of it's effectiveness at best. Probably not surprising to anyone, but I have a different perspective on the situation. How can reality be ferreted out? H says he is calm most of the time, and honest and respectful. I say he is not. He says these problems occur because we've been at a discussion for a long time, yet I say I experience it even in 5-minute conversations. He responded to the posts as if the "break and come back later" suggestion is something we haven't heard and tried before. We have. It didn't work because he never "came back later." He's conflict-averse and opts instead to ignore the elephant in the room.

I guess I just don't see how helpful this can be when the perspectives are so different. Heck, we don't even agree on what the problem is.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Yes you do agree on what the problem is, you don't know how to communicate to each other. You feel totally disrespected when you have arguments or discussions. He feels you dominate the discussions and his point of view isn't take seriously. 

He avoids the conficts and you never get back to them because he doesn't feel a chance of getting his point across because prior arguments have you conditioned he will disrespect you thus neither of you want to communicate. 

He jumped from your childs education to sex. Well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the sex conversation wont go well if you have disrespected her over and over in her mind.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Folks, 

Yes, I hate conflict. So, it is work for me to pursue a topic that I know is going to be conflictual and potentially kill an evening, or a weekend and lead to a bigger rift that we already have. 

Isn't that related to communication and isn't that dysfunctional?

Isn't it dysfunctional to have to communicate on our relationship through a third party' like this forum?

I agree in spades that I am not a rocket scientist; I didn't/don't jump from kid's education to sex. In negotiation/problem solving, there should be 'infinite solutions when two parties are thinking on the issue, one of those solutions should be a compromise both parties can enthusiastically embrace. I mention the sex issue because I can't come up with a 'compromise area' between zero and some. 

If 'communication' isn't our problem, what is our biggest problem?.

Help me understand, please.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Honcho,

You've hit the nail on the head. 

I'm conflict averse and need to finally thought my thick head that putting it off only increases the size of it ( the conflict ) as while time elapses, W(ife) is seething and escalating her emotional involvement. I look for compromise solutions that we can both enthusiastically embrace. Those hard to find though.

As far as keeping calm, the only way to objectively evaluate that is link a video to this forum (I'm kidding ; I'm new to this forum stuff.) I think I do keep calm most of the time, but I am not a good poker play. W often calls my body language disrespectful ( crossed arms, is apparently, a negative or defensive thing to her, when it's just a comfortable position to me). 

Anyway, Thanks for your insight


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

CRexWIfe,

If communication isn't our biggest issue, what is? 
Is it embracing the other's position on an issue?
Am I close?

Willing to change,
CRex


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Honcho, I agree that we have problems with our communication. I just don't believe it's the biggest one. I think things like lying, not keeping your word, infidelity, disinterest, disrespect, disdain, valuing others over your spouse, double standards, etc. are simply bigger problems. Besides, we have had numerous positive discussions where CRex and I have come to a "compromise both parties [could] enthusiastically embrace," but as soon as the time came to apply what we agreed upon, he threw out everything we discussed and pursued his own interest, to the total exclusion of mine. There was no lack of understanding.

That sort of transition from child's education to sex is not at all uncommon for our conversations. It's difficult for me to maneuver the many rabbit trails and keep us on topic. Of course the conversations go long, because they're all over the place. I haven't been able to come up with a method of redirecting a conversation back on target without it resulting in his verbally attacking me. We've pursued counseling throughout our M, but the advice isn't something that H retains Same thing for books we've read, seminars we've attended, etc. It doesn't work well when only one person is applying it.

If I had to define what I believe is the biggest problem in our M, I would say it's that H has demonstrated pretty regularly and very consistently that he simply doesn't like me very much. And I'm referring to his day-to-day interactions with me, not just his behavior during our conversations. This happens in even in the best of times, and has since the beginning of our M.


----------



## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

I agree, it doesn't sound like the communication is the source of the problem. It sounds like that is a symptom of bigger problems. 

I can understand both sides here. My husband is similar in conversations, although he doesn't take 'cheap shots' or say hurtful things to me to end the conversation. He just a lot of times doesn't internalize anything we discuss or agree on (agrees just to appease me), and afterwards nothing happens. If we put off a conversation for him to think about it, he'll never come back to it. It does get frustrating. 

How much time do you spend together without your child/just having fun?


----------



## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> If I had to define what I believe is the biggest problem in our M, I would say it's that H has demonstrated pretty regularly and very consistently that he simply doesn't like me very much. And I'm referring to his day-to-day interactions with me, not just his behavior during our conversations. This happens in even in the best of times, and has since the beginning of our M.


This is a big problem. Your wife does not feel loved by you.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> W often calls my body language disrespectful ( crossed arms, is apparently, a negative or defensive thing to her, when it's just a comfortable position to me).


Yes, I do often point out that your actions are disrespectful to me, body language and otherwise. CRex, am I to understand that you are saying that I am just misinterpreting your actions? That snorting, laughing, and rolling your eyes for example is not actually disrespectful, but merely a "comfortable position" for you? I am curious, because I don't see you being "comfortable" that way with anyone else you interact with.


----------



## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> We've pursued counseling throughout our M, but the advice isn't something that H retains Same thing for books we've read, seminars we've attended, etc. It doesn't work well when only one person is applying it.


CRexsWife, I can relate to what you are saying here. Have you told him what your needs are and given him specific things to work on? My husband is VERY similar and many times he's told me that these things just don't come naturally to him. When I give him specific things he can do meet my needs, he works on them. It's been a gradual process but it is getting better and I've never been happier in our relationship than I am right now (we have been where you're at). 

I think the most important thing is him showing you that he WANTS to try, that he's at least willing to put in the effort. Even if it's something small. 

CRex, since you two are not speaking right now, I would recommend you start showing her how much you care as opposed to telling her. Start doing nice things for her that don't require words. Actions really do speak much louder than words. Be as thoughtful and considerate as you can. If you can see she's having a bad day, run her a bubble bath, make her dinner, take your kid out and give her a break to relax, etc. That is how you can communicate that you care without actually communicating.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> This is a big problem. Your wife does not feel loved by you.


 I was being polite. To be clear, I actually feel disliked by my H.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> CRexsWife, I can relate to what you are saying here. Have you told him what your needs are and given him specific things to work on?


 Yes, I have. He'll do the "little things," like put away his shoes or wash his dishes, but the little things don't mean much to me. The big things, the things that aren't as definitive and can't be put on a chore list and be done in 5 minutes, the things that define a M for me like fidelity and loyalty, those he doesn't do.

Unfortunately, I think we're way past what you're suggesting. If he ran me a bubble bath, I would simply look at it as a convenient tool to drown him in. (Kidding, of course.) But I don't want him to do that sort of thing right now and I would not appreciate it. That would be like addressing a paper cut and ignoring the open chest wound.


----------



## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> Yes, I have. He'll do the "little things," like put away his shoes or wash his dishes, but the little things don't mean much to me. The big things, the things that aren't as definitive and can't be put on a chore list and be done in 5 minutes, the things that define a M for me like fidelity and loyalty, those he doesn't do.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think we're way past what you're suggesting. If he ran me a bubble bath, I would simply look at it as a convenient tool to drown him in. (Kidding, of course.) But I don't want him to do that sort of thing right now and I would not appreciate it. That would be like addressing a paper cut and ignoring the open chest wound.


Yeah, sorry about that. I wasn't aware of the fidelity and loyalty problems. 

I'm not sure what advice to give if marriage counseling hasn't been helpful and communication is off the table. I'm sure someone here will have something better for you guys...


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Thanks anyway, RandomGirl! (()) Of course, you wouldn't know all this when the focus topic is communication. I'm so glad you figured it out in your M before it got this bad.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> I agree with A bit much and bestyet2be that Trust is an essential component of communication. One needs to trust that their feelings and views will be respected and considered thoughtfully. If there is mistrust there will be a an assumption of ill intent or a reticence to speak openly which leads to non-communication.


 Pulled this from another thread. Makes perfect sense to me. In light of this, what is the question?


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Folks,
I had an emotional affair 7-8 years ago where I emailed my high school girlfriend who lives 800 miles away and I have not seen in 30+ years, and could not pick out of a line up today. I had read in the newspaper she went through a nasty divorce and I exchanged 5-6 emails. 
I own that. I apologize, I repented, and am honest when I say I didn't realize at the time that that was an 'affair', and I am honest when I say it will never happen again.

When honesty and openness is W's love language, it is hard to live that one down. 

As rest of my warts, yes, I have focused on matching my words with my actions for many years. And, will always do so.

Help me focus right now, folks, what am I trying to address?


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Crex & Wife, 

Wow, you two are a freaking mess! But I also pick up on a high degree of commitment to each other despite all your problems, which is a great sign. I hope some of what I can share will help you, because I have an unfortunately long string of failed relationships and I went through a long and difficult learning curve to find how to be a good partner and how to be with a good partner. It's not easy, but here are some things I learned that I hope will help you: 

Recognize each other's communication STYLE and respect it. Even more important, recognize how your OWN communication style causes problems. 

CRex, your wife is absolutely correct that crossed arms is a defensive posture. It's not about comfort. It's your way of saying, "I wish there was a wall between us so I didn't have to deal with you" without using words. If you're honest with yourself, you'll recognize this. The other things, like eye-rolling, are similar. You cannot NOT communicate. Less than 20% of what we communicate is verbal. The rest is non-verbal. Tone of voice and body language. Your wife says your body language is hateful toward her, and I'm inclined to agree. When I then consider that you're saying your defensive postures are really just "comfortable," it tells me that you're not able to accurately identify what you're feeling - to label emotions in a way that will help your relationship. 

Wife, you're very blameful and critical. This isn't helping for fostering his feelings of affection and love. This is clear from a few of your posts, and I will come back to it. If you want to feel loved, you have to be worthy of love, and criticism is the surest way to kill any affectionate feelings he has. 

Men and women do not respond the same way to conflict, and you two are an excellent example of a process that John Gottman describes well. In his books, he talks about different communication styles and how they can help or hurt a relationship. You two sound like you are "engaged /hostile" as a relationship style, but that Crex would prefer an "avoidant" style and Wife would prefer an "engaged/cooperative" style. 

What does this mean for you? It means that Crex needs to learn HOW to be cooperative and vulnerable, and Wife needs to learn how to back off and respect his vulnerability instead of going into criticism and betraying the trust he shows when he does allow himself to be vulnerable. 

Techniques I would suggest to help you get back on track: 

- Set *time limits* for discussions. 40 minutes max should be good. Use a timer on your cell phone to ring an alarm when time's up.
- Keep a *notebook* handy. At the start of discussion, identify ONE issue to address. When other issues enter the discussion, write them down and set them aside for another discussion at another time. DO NOT ADDRESS THEM AT ALL! Instead, say something like, "I hear that that's important to you, so I want to make a note of it and talk about it, but that's not the issue we're addressing right now." Both of you must agree to honor this as part of your ground rules for discussing things.
- Negotiate a *solution for the disrespectful body language and criticism* aspects. Perhaps "Every time one of us does these things, we will owe each other 5 minutes of doing something meaningful for our partner." Each time Crex crosses his arms, Wife can say, "I see your arms are crossed and I feel shut out. I'm marking this down." Crex uncrosses his arms, and then rolls his eyes a few minutes later. Another one gets marked down. Meanwhile, Wife says "You're unreliable" to him. He says, "You're talking about me instead of what happened" and gets to mark one down. At the end of 40 minutes, Crex has committed 4 errors, and Wife has committed 4 errors. Now each of you owes 20 minutes devoted to doing something that the OTHER person would like to see. At first, you'll find a lot of time being reinvested in the relationship for the other person, but over time, a few things will happen. You'll find yourself enjoying the response you get from doing things that MATTER to the other person because they'll have a great response to it. You'll be motivated to improve what you're doing that hampers communication. You'll be more patient with each other's errors because they're not so bad when they also bring about a reward.

However, none of these techniques will work if you don't CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDES! I completely can understand why CRex feels overwhelmed by you, Wife. You're like me... I can talk circles around most of the men I've been with, and as a former counselor, I can hone in very well on the things they're doing that interfere with finding win-win solutions. But guess what? All my communication skill never made a difference because of one super important detail that you actually hit on in your replies: Meaning. 

When somebody says something or does something, we assign meaning to it. The same exact event can be interpreted in ways that help or hinder our happiness. I hear Wife saying, "His behaviors _mean_ that he dislikes me," and "He does things I ask but they don't _mean_ anything to me when he runs a bath for me or puts away his shoes." Meanwhile, he's thinking, "If I do this small thing she wants, maybe she'll recognize that it _means_ I care for her." 

Wife, you MUST start letting those small actions mean something to you if you ever want him to take big risks and do those larger things like following through on things he doesn't want to do. He won't anticipate successfully pleasing you if all his small efforts are met with ho-hum from you. You may not realize how much your pleasure and praise _mean_ to him, but I can perceive it just from what he wrote in his very first post. 

Also, recognize that his blood pressure and defensiveness skyrocket the moment he _anticipates_ those long, drawn-out discussions you've been having. Yes, I realize he's the one side-tracking them into dozens of different topics and making them go on forever, but that's partly because he feels like a failure when it comes to pleasing you, and he tries to deflect as much of that as he can. You are very critical of him, and his body language and smart-a$$ed remarks are his way of protecting himself from feeling like he is a loser who can't please you. (Not that he can admit to that and still keep his man card...) He doesn't have your ability to label feelings like you do, and if you can gently and lovingly help him see that you "get" it, it'll help him feel more competent and confident and you'll see less defensiveness.

So you need to find POSITIVE meaning in his efforts and acknowledge it. Let me know how he IS your champion in those small ways that right now, might not mean much to you, but will mean the world to you if you can see that they ARE the doorway to a better relationship. 

And CRex, you MUST also change your attitude and the meaning of things. When you perceive Wife to be critical, it doesn't _mean_ that you're failing OR that she's unrealistic. It _means_ that she feels anxious or fearful. She, too, is vulnerable to you, and when she is blameful about something, like getting upset that you didn't do something you said you would, it might _mean_ to her that you don't love her very much, when to you it _meant_ you had something else that was more important at that moment. Realize she still has a vulnerable little girl part in her that wants to be cherished and treasured, and these things are where she finds out what SHE means to you.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Rabbit trail #1

Yes, 7 years ago. He says today that he didn't know it was an affair. However, he hid what he was doing, certainly not mentioning it and deleting the string of emails so I wouldn't find them. The point is, he knew he was doing something wrong or he wouldn't have deleted them, whether he acknowledged it as an affair or not. He just didn't do it very well and I did stumble across it, sadly while looking for ideas on what I could get him for his birthday. The emails included declarations that she was the love of his life (and she said he was hers) and he didn't know why they ever broke up. He stopped because I took it to our pastor and our pastor told him to stop. Of course, there's no way for me to know if he really did stop or simply switched to another email address.

Within the last 6 months, he has told me that he didn't have an emotional affair, that there is no such thing as an emotional affair. I simply don't feel like this is resolved, nor am I confident that he won't do something similar again that also "is not an affair." Even amidst his apology and repentance, I feel like he is still minimizing and defending it.

BTW, how's my communication?


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

CRexsWife said:


> Rabbit trail #1
> 
> Yes, 7 years ago. He says today that he didn't know it was an affair. However, he hid what he was doing, certainly not mentioning it and deleting the string of emails so I wouldn't find them. The point is, he knew is was doing something wrong or he wouldn't have deleted them, whether he acknowledged it as an affair or not. He just didn't do it very well and I did stumble across it, sadly while looking for ideas on what I could get him for his birthday. The emails included declarations that she was the love of his life (and she said he was hers) and he didn't know why they ever broke up. He stopped because I took it to our pastor and our pastor told him to stop. Of course, there's no way for me to know if he really did stop or simply switched to another email address.
> 
> ...


You know what I said above about meaning? You seem to have attached meaning to even the fact that you were looking for things for his birthday when you found out. "See? I was being loyal when he wasn't!" as if it's a "real" connection. It isn't. He cheated. It was wrong. But it had NOTHING to do with whether or not you were loyal, or deserved it, etc. 

He did not stop "because the pastor told him to." He stopped because he decided stopping was what he wanted to do. He found something meaningful that influenced his decision. You don't know if it was "I want my marriage to work," or "New woman isn't really what I want," or ... whatever... but it's almost certain it wasn't "I want to obey the pastor." 

Has he changed? 
Are you still worried about his level of commitment to you? 
What would it take for you to stop feeling worried about his commitment to you?

If the last time you saw actual reason to worry was seven years ago, why are you still even touching on this subject today? No wonder he's trying to say there's no such thing as an emotional affair if you've still not forgiven him despite being loyal to you for seven years since then. On the other hand, his refusal to acknowledge only keeps your fear locked in because it makes you doubt that he's really acknowledged what happened and how damaging it was.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

All,
I don't dislike my wife. I can't honestly say I'm infatuated with her as I was when we both met each others' emotional needs, ad she proclaims she has no intention of meeting mine. I, at least, try to meet hers. 
I work hard to love, and improve my performance when W talks about leading separate lives now and/or in 5 years when our son leaves the nest, and W lives in a separate bedroom!
Love is a decision, not a feeling (Gary Smalley said that before me.)


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

CRex said:


> All,
> I don't dislike my wife. I can't honestly say I'm infatuated with her as I was when we both met each others' emotional needs, ad she proclaims she has no intention of meeting mine. I, at least, try to meet hers.
> I work hard to love, and improve my performance when W talks about leading separate lives now and/or in 5 years when our son leaves the nest, and W lives in a separate bedroom!
> Love is a decision, not a feeling (Gary Smalley said that before me.)


I hope both of you are reading my replies. CRex, you both play a role in this. It's sad to me because I think YOU are more invested than your wife in this relationship and you'll be harmed more by it ending, but I see her as doing more damage on a day-to-day basis while you need to stop trying so hard. She's hostile. Stop tolerating that. But also, stop with the defensiveness and be ready to address the real issues.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

KathyBatesel, you have some very informed perspective on relationships, much of it I have heard or read before. I'm familiar with Gottman's work. What I seem to lack is the ability to apply it at a personal level.

You indicated that you find me "blameful." I would love to have you point to my posts where that is evident to you. It seems I don't know how to say "he does this thing and it's a problem for me" without it being blameful, because in fact, he is the one that is doing the behavior.

As in my prior post, many of these are old issues that were never resolved and so they keep coming up. I suspect my presentation the 10th time around is not as patient and endearing as it was initially, much like the scene in Grounghog Day where Bill Murray is trying to rush through the day to get to the "happy time" with Andie McDowell, and failing miserably. I would suspect my presentation after 7 years of discussion on the same unresolved topic is unpleasant at best. Expecting more than that from me might just be beyond my capacity.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> You know what I said above about meaning? You seem to have attached meaning to even the fact that you were looking for things for his birthday when you found out. "See? I was being loyal when he wasn't!" as if it's a "real" connection. It isn't. He cheated. It was wrong. But it had NOTHING to do with whether or not you were loyal, or deserved it, etc.


 My meaning was only that it hurt worse. I was being loving, he was not. I can't see being as hurt by it if I stumbled across it when I went to go chat up my EA.

Is the problem that I communicated my perspective wrong or that I actually felt more hurt/stupid/foolish for my being devoted when he was not?


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> Has he changed?


 EA-wise, I have no idea. I did the snooping for some time and decided I couldn't live that way. If he still doesn't recognize that an EA is real, I don't know why anything would be different, except perhaps the person he's doing it with.
Life-wise, no, I would say he has not changed since we first M'd. I have.


> Are you still worried about his level of commitment to you?


 We've discussed D numerous times. He's told me his terms. If he files for D, I won't fight him. Does that qualify as commitment?


> What would it take for you to stop feeling worried about his commitment to you?


 In what regard? I guess I don't even understand this. I think my definition of commitment is very different than his.


> If the last time you saw actual reason to worry was seven years ago, why are you still even touching on this subject today?


 Absolutely not, it's often. No more emails that I'm aware of, but other things though.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

KathyB,
WOW, you said a lot that I am processing.
Yes, we're a freaking mess. Agreed.
OK, body language....I'll continue to work on it. I'm not thinking those things that you associate with it, but if that's what she sees/hears/feels when I cross my arms, for example, I'll focus on that, even as I spend the bulk of my concentration on what is being said.
Engaged/Cooperative style sounds great to me. How do we get there?!?!?

Time limits sound good. We've tried that, but the 40 mins, (or whatever) seem to elapse and we're still at it. If we both don't agree to and enforce it, it's pointless. I'll even suggest 40 mins, with a bonus 5-10 mins to complete a final point.

Notebook. Good idea. And penalties for rolling my eyes or crossing my arms... great. I believe I can succeed at that if we don't go on and on all night, and/or over the same thing several times.

But, I can't think of appropriate small things I'd do that are meaningful to her, or that she would do that are meaningful to me. Even sleeping in the same bed or going to a company social function with me are out of the question to her. 
And, I try to do everything I can think of that is meaningful to her already. So, I'm struggling with that suggestion in knowing how to apply it.

You're exactly right when you ID my blood pressure going up when W and I start to discuss an issue. My temperature goes up and I need to lose a layer (sweater, for example) to stay comfortable.

How can I change my attitude? 
"And CRex, you MUST also change your attitude and the meaning of things. When you perceive Wife to be critical, it doesn't mean that you're failing OR that she's unrealistic. It means that she feels anxious or fearful. She, too, is vulnerable to you, and when she is blameful about something, like getting upset that you didn't do something you said you would, it might mean to her that you don't love her very much, when to you it meant you had something else that was more important at that moment. Realize she still has a vulnerable little girl part in her that wants to be cherished and treasured, and these things are where she finds out what SHE means to you." 
I realize that anger is an outward manifestation of fear. It's hard to focus on that and recall that as W is ramping up and using her superior negotiating skills and itemizing your sins from the past many years. Yet, I get that.... anger is a manifestation of fear.

Always trying not to be defensive and manage my comments are polite and respectful but I do have limits when I become exhausted,

Thanks for your wisdom,
Keep 'em coming, please,
CRex
(The 'C' stands for Clueless, incidentally)


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> I see her as doing more damage on a day-to-day basis while you need to stop trying so hard. She's hostile. Stop tolerating that.


 This, too, I would love some reflection on.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

KathyB,
"I hope both of you are reading my replies. CRex, you both play a role in this. It's sad to me because I think YOU are more invested than your wife in this relationship and you'll be harmed more by it ending, but I see her as doing more damage on a day-to-day basis while you need to stop trying so hard. She's hostile. Stop tolerating that. But also, stop with the defensiveness and be ready to address the real issues." 

You bet! I sure am reading all your replies. And, I'm trying to address the issues you raise head on. (I'm new to this forum stuff, so please bear with me. Plus, I am just plain slow to process things.) 

BTW, Sometimes, W seems to be arguing about something little, something that makes now sense to argue. So, I'll ask 'That's the thing behind the thing?' meaning, what's the real issue bothering her. I've stopped doing that because it seems to make things worse rather than 'peel the onion' to make things better (rewsolve the real issue.
You might be right on who will be harmed more... I'm almost 10 years older than W and can't imagine starting over again. But, I'm committed to this marriage and want to believe that marriages with far greater issue than our have been resurrected to be healthy marriages.
Thx,
CRex


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Yes its a mess, you both are hyper sensitive to anything right now after all this time. Both of you are defensive and rex while you say you don't like to debate items forever, you are. You avoid, deflect and hope it goes away you procrastinate to try and "win" 

No decision is a win in your mind whether you agree or don't. The EA item still being a hot topic after all these years is proof. You defend, avoid, dismiss what you wrote whatever. Here is a guy perspective on it. Im not trying to debate whether is was an ea or not. She was hurt by that, you dismissed her hurt you tried to minimize it. That was an argument you would never have won whether it was innocent or not. She felt betrayed, you didn't LISTEN or understand her hurt and pain by your actions. 

You didn't like her response and you tried to blow it off and you still are and this probably happens with other items thus she will want her opinion heard even more and she will dig her heals in harder on any subject because you didn't respect her enough to try and understand her hurt on that one point. Guys think different than women, we can be "stupid" at times especially when it comes to feelings and how women perceive are actions. 

You might not like that she feels hurt but you have to respect the fact she has is/was and work to correct that on many points, not just the ea. She is an equal partner in your relationship treat her as such. She is stubborn, not a bad thing by the way, you got work to do, she wont be convinced of your actions for a while. Miracles don't happen overnight. 

Wife, you wont be convinced things can change, you state little things wont help and will need to give a little too if he is changing you will need to validate his changes give him aknowlegement. Its a long road. Part of the great communication thing is LISTENING to each other.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

KathyB,
You said above "CRex, your wife is absolutely correct that crossed arms is a defensive posture. It's not about comfort. It's your way of saying, "I wish there was a wall between us so I didn't have to deal with you" without using words. If you're honest with yourself, you'll recognize this. The other things, like eye-rolling, are similar. You cannot NOT communicate. Less than 20% of what we communicate is verbal. The rest is non-verbal. Tone of voice and body language. Your wife says your body language is hateful toward her, and I'm inclined to agree. When I then consider that you're saying your defensive postures are really just "comfortable," it tells me that you're not able to accurately identify what you're feeling - to label emotions in a way that will help your relationship."

We just completed a 40-minute session where I did not roll my eyes and I did not cross my arms. I did have to answer her one question 4-5 times and try to explain 4-5 times why I thought what I thought. And, I was told I was hostile and W referred me to the above portion of your post. 

So, W wants to revise the 40 minutes down to 20.

May I also suggest that we video such discussions because I just do not see where I was hostile at all. I think I manage myself very well when asked the same thing 4-5 times or more, questions, I might add that are on issues from 7 years ago or more.

That way both of our body languages, tone of voice and other non-verbals can be reviewed and pointed out.

I am, by nature, conflict averse. I'm trying to man-up and address issues head on. Current issues, deal with and file them, so as not to have to revisit them over and over again.

In that session, W asked "If you admit to being conflict averse, why would you say you want an Engaged/Cooperate style?" Answer: Because I see wisdom in being both invested (engaged) and cooperatively solving whatever the issue is. That seems logical, rational, mature, good. It's what I strive for even with the handicap of being conflict averse by nature. But she said she hears it as a "sales pitch" which I interpreted yet another lie. 

I engage. I give my best answers. 

BTW, The title of this thread is '...rebuild a marriage without communication?' It is rhetorical. You can't. I know that. Yet, we so suck at communicating that W suggested we do it only through a forum such as this. So, I am embracing that because I so desire to improve this freaking mess.

Thanks,
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

KathyB,

Yes, I have changed in that I had no idea a few e-mails to a high school sweetheart would (1) be so devastating to W (2) be classified as an EA and therefore I have landed on it being WRONG, never to be committed again. I landed there based on its impact on her/us despite my thinking it was harmless (initially; not now) and not simply because a pastor friend said it was wrong. 
Thanks
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Honcho,

I stopped after realizing her perspective on it 7 years ago. I'm no longer defending it, and even understand it was an EA.

I would hate for her to do it or worse as I would feel similarly. 

Equal partners is the goal. And there is a concept/acronym called POJA, Policy of Joint Agreement where you both discuss things an get a solution which you both can enthusiastically embrace before doing anything. I'm a fan of that concept. The trick is getting there.

Trying not to be hyper-sensitive, yet in pursuit of POJA with my equal partner. 

And you understand that the title of this thread is rhetorical. You cannot build or rebuild a marriage without communication. Heck, I'll use the adjective 'healthy' communication. W suggested she'd only communicate through a forum such as this.


Thanks, again, for your wisdom.
CRex


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

So, looking forward.

I have learned things about my H over the years. Like when I first started dating him, he and his kids explained to me that in no uncertain terms were mushrooms ever allowed in the house. Simply meaning, they didn't like nor want mushrooms. I love mushrooms, but fine if they didn't, I could eat them without expecting anyone else to do so.

Luckily, this message was voiced outloud in a manner that I understood and was never contradicted by anyone's actions (although the kids have since grown up and now love mushrooms, too, though H still does not.) I consider this ideal. I don't "blame" H or "resent" him because he doesn't like mushrooms. It's unfortunate that it's not something we can share, or experiment with different varieties, or try new recipes, etc. but one can hardly blame another for their preferences. At the same time, I'm not willing to give up my interest in them.

There have been many other things I've learned about H over the years, which weren't as simply stated or easily accounted for, but just as clear nonetheless. One of these is that H is simply not content with my company alone. He loves a crowd. The more the merrier. Even our honeymoon cruise was nice but "would have been better if we had another half-dozen other couples with us." His kids and I were always trying to get him to camp just as a family, but he always insisted on a huge production with 40-50 other people. We went to a bed & breakfast, had a great time I thought, then returned to do it again with two other couples. As recently as this summer, I pointed out a couples cooking class/date night that we could do together, and his response was that he would see if the other bible study couples "would be available that night to do it with us." This is just a few of hundreds of examples.

I've also learned that neither is he interested in my activities/hobbies. For years I tried to get him to participate with me (gardening, hiking, biking, float trips, jigsaw puzzles, scary movies, etc.) but he would decline with some snide comment about how it was boring/for girls/too much work/not for him/etc. Or he would give it a token 5 minute effort then walk off in disgust. I somewhat get it, because I feel the same about his hobby of golf, so I'm not criticizing him, just stating facts. The problem though is that now we don't share any interests. And on top of it, I wouldn't know how to address that since I know he's not content with my company.

He's welcome to do his hobbies. He was gone last weekend for a trip to Florida to play golf for 3 days with his uncle/cousins. At the same time, I don't feel inclined to give up my interests. He's doing what he enjoys with other people that enjoy doing it, and I'm doing the same. Why would we ever change that? What could possibly be the benefit to either one of us doing what we don't want to do and imposing that on the other person during their pleasure time? I know the few brief times H did join me in my hobby of gardening or jigsaw puzzles, for example, he created memories for me which confirm that I'd rather do it without him and his negative attitude. There's nothing fun about listening to someone gripe the whole time, or look at their watch, or steer the activity away from the one intended. And worse, now I know clearly how he feels about it so "behaving" better doesn't improve anything for me. Sort of like trying to enjoy sex when you know the other person is repulsed by it, even if they are doing a good job of faking it.

I'm just trying to figure out what we're shooting for. Even if we learned to communicate effectively, we want different things from life. I don't think either of us are right or wrong, I just see it as incompatible.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

CRexWife,

Yes, we're different, but incompatible only if we decide to be. Most guys, indeed, have different interests than their wives. But, successful couples find some shared activities.

As you know, I realize the selfish ways of those early years and have repented of that. I would enthusiastically enjoy gardening or jigsaw puzzling with you now. But, you say "that window has closed. I've changed." OK, let's find some new activity we both like!

I empathize with and share your loneliness. I live there too.

If we both wanted to resurrect this marriage, we could. But, one person can't do it alone.

So, are you saying communication is not our problem and the real problem, from your perspective is we're incompatible?

Everyone else, especially successful marriages,

How do you do it?

I'm aware of a program that 5 out of 6 couples go through and accomplish being in love again and report better marriages afterwards even when affairs are involved. Can anyone point me to a program or strategy that accomplishes this?

We loved each other once upon a time. Marriage without love is hell. 

Thanks,
CRex


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

CRex, I thought I was clear when I said that I thought communication was not our biggest problem. But I'm attempting to give you that opportunity since you seem to think it is. 

For example, you've mentioned my restriction of only communicating with you with a third party present three times in this thread (although with a new twist each time.)

#16 - Isn't it dysfunctional to have to communicate on our relationship through a third party' like this forum?

#43 - Yet, we so suck at communicating that W suggested we do it only through a forum such as this. 

#45 - W suggested she'd only communicate through a forum such as this.

I also stated it in my initial post. Is there something you're trying to say? Would you prefer we not do this? You claim to be cooperative, but yet you keep bringing it up. Is there a reason?

Also, you keep referring to our issues as "the early years," and you claim that you would enthusiastically like to engage in my interests now, yet I made the suggestion for the couples cooking class in the last 3 months and it didn't even occur to you to do it WITH ME. I don't see that your interests have changed at all. Even our family night out to dinner to watch the world series game a month ago was negated when you invited M&L to sit down and join us. You spent the next 45 minutes talking to them non-stop, even cutting me off 3 sentences into my one-and-only interaction with them because apparently I wasn't doing it right. I have no idea what you're looking for from me. It seems like you just want a non-participatory audience for your own life.


----------



## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> CRex, I thought I was clear when I said that I thought communication was not our biggest problem. But I'm attempting to give you that opportunity since you seem to think it is.
> 
> For example, you've mentioned my restriction of only communicating with you with a third party present three times in this thread (although with a new twist each time.)
> 
> ...


That is not at all what I got from his posts. From CRex's most recent post he sounds more than willing to work on these things---and appreciates the insight from others. It sounds like he's been trying... I can still see love for you there. Why don't you give him a chance? You've held onto this resentment/anger for seven years... it sounds like that has seeped into your every interaction. Will you ever let yourself forgive him and move on? Do you want to?

With the communication breakdown that has gone on for so long, I wouldn't be surprised if neither of you are really aware of the others needs... much less be trying to meet them. Maybe he had no idea how important participating in your interests and hobbies were to you. Now that he does, are you willing to let his past transgressions go and give him another chance? 

I'm actually finding this thread quite interesting... nice to get both sides of the equation for once.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

RG, what is it that you didn't get out of his posts? I said that it appeared that he thought communication was our biggest issue. I copied his quotes and asked if he was trying to say something with his repeat references. The rest are just details of recent events. I don't know what there is to disagree with, I didn't interpret anything.

As for giving him a chance, that's exactly what these two opportunities were. I extended the invitation to the cooking class, my interest. I accepted the invitation to go out to dinner to watch the series game, his interest. I'm not even angry about how they went, they are what they are, there's nothing to forgive. This is simply how he has always been and I accept that, but it doesn't mean I enjoy it. So I'm trying to base a future on this reality, rather than continue to beat my head against a wall trying to change it.

We've been at this a long time. While his comments are new and fresh and therefore encouraging for you, it's almost script at this point for me.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> If we both wanted to resurrect this marriage, we could. But, one person can't do it alone.


 CRex, this is too 50,000 foot for me. Can you be more specific, please? I've been addressing specific examples, real-life problems, repeat issues. Your statement is rather vague as to what you're suggesting, nor are you addressing anything specific that I've presented.

I find this sort of fluff annoying as heck.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

CRexWife, RG,

I'm not bad-mouthing this or any other, forum. (1) Simply saying a 3rd-party is not what I perceive successfully married couples do and (2) presenting it as evidence that, though it's out of my comfort zone, I'm embracing ( and learning how to participate in ) it in effort to meet you where you're at, since it is your need. 

If a 3rd party forum such as this gets couples back to loving each other, I'M ALL IN! I'm the one who historically, has like to have a 3rd party ty-breaker once in a while. It call it seeking wise counsel.

I'm still clueless. If communication isn't our biggest issue, what is? Honesty? Embracing your interests? Liking mushrooms? 

Swimming upstream,
CRex


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Okay, then nevermind, let's just go with communication is our number 1. Now what? 

I've agreed to the 40-min max, even brought my phone with me and set the timer. It didn't go well, I thought, you said it was fine. I backed it up to 20 minutes the next time, to try to avoid your negativity. Are we good then? I'm obliging your time limit, you're happy with how it went. What now?


----------



## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

I actually think communication is the biggest issue. But I am just a third party and I think I will respectfully bow out now. I'm rooting for you guys! Good luck.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

CRexWife,

Vague? OK. Specifically, I thought communication was a good place to start. If it isn't give me another place.

If you want to address honesty, fine let's do. You have all my passwords, all my accounts, all my everything. What have you given me similar? It's called radical honesty.

If you want address the past, I believe that has already been done, but, let's.

If you want address hostility, let's do that. My 'dukes are down'.
If you want to find common interests, I'm all in. I'll enroll us in some sort of dance class, or craft making class (although you could probably teach it,) how about a wine-making class or glass-blowing class; I'll find one. The sky is the limit as far as I'm concerned.

Give me a hint, please.

I can impact the present and future, but not change the past.

Constructive thoughts?
CRex


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

I repeat, okay, then nevermind, let's just go with communication is our number 1. Now what?

I've agreed to the 40-min max, even brought my phone with me and set the timer. It didn't go well, I thought, you said it was fine. I backed it up to 20 minutes the next time, to try to avoid your negativity. Are we good then? I'm obliging your time limit, you're happy with how it went. What now?


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

You two remind me of a couple I know … 

*Both *of you are vague (speaking in generalities) … *CRex *with his focus on “communication” and *CRexwife *with her focus on his “negativity”. IMHO opinion you need to start discussing specific real-life incidents that cause negative feelings in each other (we call them “love busters” on TAM). For Example ...

*Example 1:*

*CRex *said “We just completed a 40-minute session where I did not roll my eyes and I did not cross my arms. I did have to answer her one question 4-5 times and try to explain 4-5 times why I thought what I thought. And, I was told I was hostile …”

*CRex *can you state the “one question” your W asked 4-5 times? Was it truly the exact same question each time or was she asking for further clarification on your answer? Was your answer the 1st, 2nd (etc.) time the exactly the same or did you provide further clarification with each successive answer?

*CRexwife*: Why did you feel the need to ask the same question 4-5 times? Was it because you did not understand his answer and needed further clarification? Or, was it because you did not believe or like his answer, or did you feel he was evasive?

*CRexwife*: Can you describe the specific statements/behaviors/etc. that caused you to view your H as hostile?

*Example 2:*

*CRexwife* said “our family night out to dinner to watch the world series game a month ago was negated when you invited M&L to sit down and join us. You spent the next 45 minutes talking to them non-stop, even cutting me off 3 sentences into my one-and-only interaction with them”

*CRexwife*: Can you describe exactly what your H did or said that you interpreted as “cutting me off”? When he does this can you think of a humorous or non-combative comment that will make him aware of what he is doing? E.G. in my own marriage I have a phrase I use when my H “takes over” my telling of a story to a group of friends … I say “Hey you, I got this!” (using a humorous/affectionate tone and a gentle touch to his arm).

*CRex*: When you did this were you thinking that you could “say it better” or that your W was saying something unimportant … i.e. what was your thinking when cutting into your W’s conversing? Do you understand why your W felt “left out” of the conversation that occurred during this outing?

You both need to think about and share with each other the answers to the above questions and, accept each other’s answers as truth.

*AND, BOTH OF YOU NEED TO STOP INFERRING MOTIVES OR HIDDEN MEANINGS IN WHAT THE OTHER SAYS/DOES AND, INSTEAD TRUST WHAT THE OTHER IS SAYING IS TRUE AT FACE VALUE. BEFORE YOU MAKE A CONCLUSION OR ASCRIBE A MOTIVE, ASK “IS THIS WHAT YOU MEAN (REPEAT WHAT YOU HEARD), DID I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY?”*


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

CRexWife,

My best shot at S.M.A.R.T. (Specific, Measurable, Achieveable, Relevant, and Timebound) plan is:

Step 1. Agree on the common goal of restoring our marriage, resurrecting our love for each other. If we can't do that, fine game over, go to Plan B in Step 6. Otherwise we can proceed to Step 2.

Step 2. ID the things that cause us not to be in love with each other, the love busters. The big three are anger, disrespect and selfish demands. OK, the respect thing based on body language and eye contact, etc. we've ID'd from your perspective. And, as you've said, it's pointless to attempt to build love deposits if you persist in habits that undermine that effort. 
Keeping our discussions to a finite time limit will help that cause from my perspective. I'm slow, but not a moron. If I've explained it 4-5 times, we have to move on with minimal frustration put upon both of us. 
We'll both have to review the videos and minimize our bad habits of showing 'hostility' to the other. 

Step 3. Compose and execute a plan that eliminates the items in step 2 above. Anger, disrespect and selfish demands -- are the way we instinctively when we have conflicts. Avoiding these are tough for both of us. These rules will apply to both of us. If love is destroyed when I cross my arms (or other body language habits) I'll stop that. Similarly, if you have something five times and I have answered it 5 times, you should similarly, consider your approach, body language or tone might be disrespectful and fueling 'disdain' too.
Demands are the best way to guarantee NOT getting what you desire whether it is sex or a different answer to a question or a plan to restore our marriage. I trust that you give me your best answers. Please trust I am giving you my best answers. At some point, we have to accept my answer to your question as I do your current position on sex, for example. 
Time limits and videoing our conversations should help that effort. 
I see this step will being the hardest.
And, if we make it to here, I'll have to put more meat to this step. 

Step 4. Employ the policy of joint agreement and policy of radical honesty. You already have all my passwords, accounts and whereabouts. Still, we use the GPS on both of our phones to track where each other is all the time. If that doesn't address honesty and trustworthiness on both our parts, I don't know whagt will.
Steps 3 and 4 can go on simultaneously. The goal from my perspective is to restore the confidence and trust of each other.

4. Review each of our emotional needs. We've already done this, so it should be fairly short to ID them.

5. Decide whether we wish to meet each others' emotional needs based upon the progress made in steps 1-4. If no progress, decide whether to poop or get off the pot. 
If we're going to attempt to meet each others' needs and doing things together is one of them, we'll have to define some mutually enjoyable activities might be. From my perspective, I can't see having marriage where we didn't do anything together.

6. Commit and either meet each others' emotional needs, or Plan B, call it a day.
If we're just staying together as roommates for Jake's sake, I'll commit for the next 5 years. I don't believe a convenient situation of sharing a house with you when we have no honesty, love, good will, and don't do things together (no one's emotional needs being met,) that is no longer a is a marriage worth keeping. That's not a demand, just a stated opinion. But if we go the next 5 years at the same pace as the past 5, I don't see the how even 2 roommates would want to deal with each other. 

The above is not a hard and fast plan. Nor is it an ultimatum. It's my opinion based on all I know. 

The above proposed plan is a starting point that I offer in answer to your question. If you have other thoughts, items to add to this plan, please offer them.

If we don't execute something akin to the above, I see one or both of us having an affair. In 5 years, my goal is to have a true lover. I hope and pray that person is you, CRexWife.

So, recapping:
Specific. It's as specific as I can make it right now. We can add details as we get started.

Measurable. The metrics can be whether we're making progress on minimizing love busters each day. I'll place a chart on the refrigerator or in our bathroom.

Achievable. Well, this might be hard to substantiate right now. It's probably not achievable if we both don't commit to Step 1.

Relevant. Love in our marriage is 100% relevant. We've proven that this marriage lacking it, is hell.

Timebound. Best case, we turn this around in the next 6 mos to a year. Worst case, we stick it out for the next 5 years to meet the goal of raising Jake under one roof, which is more important to us both, than having a real spouse and lover.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

"Negativity" was addressed specifically earlier, with the discussion of his body language (arms crossed, eye rolling, laughing and snorting as examples.) During the conversation, I pointed out to him exactly what he was doing that I found offensive at the time he was doing it. He responded by telling me he wasn't being offensive. Specifically, it was his tone of voice, the volume of his voice, his negative comments about having to answer the same question AGAIN, snorting like I've just said something stupid, etc.



> CRexwife: Why did you feel the need to ask the same question 4-5 times? Was it because you did not understand his answer and needed further clarification? Or, was it because you did not believe or like his answer, or did you feel he was evasive?


 I wouldn't have said it was the same question. His answers to me are confusing and contradictory. In most conversations I have with him, I feel like I'm in an Abbott and Costello "Who's on First?" routine. I can't speak to whether it is purposely evasive, but it sure feels that way.



> CRexwife: Can you describe exactly what your H did or said that you interpreted as “cutting me off”? When he does this can you think of a humorous or non-combative comment that will make him aware of what he is doing? E.G. in my own marriage I have a phrase I use when my H “takes over” my telling of a story to a group of friends … I say “Hey you, I got this!” (using a humorous/affectionate tone and a gentle touch to his arm).


 He cut me off by giving me the time-out sign with his hands, grunting 'no', choking down the bite that was in his mouth, then telling me I was telling it wrong. I did correct him in a positive way; our friends were there. But frankly, the damage was already done at that point.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> AND, BOTH OF YOU NEED TO STOP INFERRING MOTIVES OR HIDDEN MEANINGS IN WHAT THE OTHER SAYS/DOES AND, INSTEAD TRUST WHAT THE OTHER IS SAYING IS TRUE AT FACE VALUE. BEFORE YOU MAKE A CONCLUSION OR ASCRIBE A MOTIVE, ASK “IS THIS WHAT YOU MEAN (REPEAT WHAT YOU HEARD), DID I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY?”


Red, can you help with this?... If I see H pick the mushrooms out of every dish he's ever served that has them, and finally one day I ask him if he doesn't like mushrooms and his answer is that he loves mushrooms, what do I do with that? This of course is figurative, I'm just trying to make a point. I find that H's words completely contradict his actions. When I attempt to understand by asking questions, then I'm accused of interrogating him. Even if I ask "Why didn't you eat those?", "Do you ever eat them?", "Do you dislike them a certain way?", to him those are all the same question and at #3 he's pixxed, because he's already answered that "he loves them."

Since communication is the topic, what do I do with that?


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> You two remind me of a couple I know …
> 
> Red Sonja,
> First, thanks for your input.
> ...


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> CRex can you state the “one question” your W asked 4-5 times? Was it truly the exact same question each time or was she asking for further clarification on your answer? Was your answer the 1st, 2nd (etc.) time the exactly the same or did you provide further clarification with each successive answer?
> 
> Yes.


Perfect example. This is my world.


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

CRexsWife said:


> Red, can you help with this?... If I see H pick the mushrooms out of every dish he's ever served that has them, and finally one day I ask him if he doesn't like mushrooms and his answer is that he loves mushrooms, what do I do with that? This of course is figurative, I'm just trying to make a point. I find that H's words completely contradict his actions. When I attempt to understand by asking questions, then I'm accused of interrogating him. Even if I ask "Why didn't you eat those?", "Do you ever eat them?", "Do you dislike them a certain way?", to him those are all the same question and at #3 he's pixxed, because he's already answered that "he loves them."


I realize that this is a hypothetical example however, *if* CRex truly denies a reality (e.g. says “I like mushrooms” when he does not) then he is gas-lighting you.

It is your responsibility (and his also) to use specific and real examples; something he has specifically stated, that denies your reality or his own previously stated reality. I do not think it is helpful, in your case, to deal with hypotheticals. You, as a couple, need to deal in facts and events that actually happened ... this prevents misunderstanding and/or misinterpretation.

And, hypotheticals allow us all, as emotional human-beings, to embellish facts ... not good and not useful in solving problems.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Red S, CRexWife,
I'm lost.
I was specific, I thought. And, it was real example.
What is gas-lighting?
I understood CRexW's question. And, I answered it over and over.
Gotta go to work,
CRex


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

I answered your post before I had the real-life example in CRex's response to you.

This:


> CRex can you state the “one question” your W asked 4-5 times? Was it truly the exact same question each time or was she asking for further clarification on your answer? Was your answer the 1st, 2nd (etc.) time the exactly the same or did you provide further clarification with each successive answer?
> 
> Yes.


is a perfect real-life example. Three questions, two of them "or" questions, answered with a single "yes." This is what I deal with all the time where CRex says he answered my question, but he didn't so I ask it again or differently, which he responds the same, till the third time when he's pxxed.

BTW, I recall a counseling session where the counselor had to ask CRex the same question three times because CRex was answering something else. I'm sure it happened all the time, but I remember this session specifically because this issue was the topic. The counselor told CRex that he had to listen more carefully, focus more on what is being asked, drop all the defensiveness, etc. etc. CRex of course promised to do just that. He hasn't, and I suspect he doesn't even remember the advice.


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Why do you keep asking questions when you know he won't answer them?

I believe talking is overrated and in your case it's destructive.

You two keep doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result.

Yeah that's never going to happen.

If you do what you've always done you'll have what you've always had.


----------



## Eden1973 (Sep 9, 2013)

I love this!!!! Lol. It's great seeing both sides of the coin. But, it's a little sad too. 

What I've seen is it funny how CRex came here thinking that they were having one issue an communication issue but CRexwife has years & years of disappointments that have lead to resentments building & remaining over time (I.e. EA, mushrooms, recreational activities or lack thereof, etc.). Honestly, until the past is dealt with effectively then this will continue. Seems that first wife needs validation of her hurt & diappointments on all level. Gosh, she truly believes that her husband doesn't even "like" her or like spending time with her. She's felt this way the words spoken to OW, the lack of interest in mutual things, the cutting her off, the lack of interest in engaging her when something concerns her. She doesn't feel wanted or desired just tolerated. 

Wife has to learn do practice forgiveness & letting go. Love keeps no records. Now it's hard to not keep records but just look at what record keeping is doing. It in no way is benefitting the marriage.
He made mistakes that deeply hurt the core of becoming & being one. CRex you have to "show" her the value she has to you & not in a lazy way, on purpose. You have to stop & think before responding & acting on impulse which is also hard. 

Maybe you all stop talking, lol, just for a minute. Each pick one thing for the other to do to show love toward each other. Give details & give each other maybe a week to response & do it purposely. Be willing & stop keeping score. Just try, let your pride & guards down & try.

By the way. Tell us how you two fell in love & why you fell with the other. Try to really go back to the pure-ness of the beginning without the trials over the years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Eden,

Good ideas in the last two paragraphs. However, I don't know what I would do for her. W has withdrawn so far from me, she won't allow me to do anything with or for her. That's makes it such an irony; W talks about how hurt she is from me NOT doing her things, now won't allow me to do any of those things. 

As for how we fell in love, I was divorced with four kids. I asked her out and she replied " you're a nice guy, but divorced with 4 kids, I'll decline, thanks". We worked in the same office, same company, and 5-6 months later, she asked me if I'd care to attend the company Christmas party. I did. We hit it off, fell in love, talked all the time, got married. 

Enter: conflict, ex-wife crap, classic blended-family stuff; and it's been a downhill battle ever since. On top of that, of course, is my selfishness, focus on guy stuff, kids' sports, etc. at the expense of her gardening, jigsaw puzzling, crafts, etc. It has hurt her beyond my comprehension.

Not sure what I can do to help her. 

I honestly try to answer her questions. But, try as I may, my answers don't make sense to her or fit in her puzzle.

Fewer and fewer of my 'pieces' fit in her 'puzzle' these days.

Thanks for your advice,
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Mavash, Eden, et al,

New no. 1 problem, I think. Somehow, we need to discuss the past and come to some sort of resolution. I can say I understand the profound enormity of her hurt, but that doesn't mean diddly. She needs more discussion of how hurt she is, even though we've discussed it for years already. 

I agree that going over it and over it will yield the same rotten outcome. Yet, until W has some sort of closure, some sort of sense that I DO get the profound enormity of her pain, her life, and therefore my life, is miserable. 

Thanks


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

"Gaslighting is a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim."

I'm not smart enough gaslight. I do my best to answer W's questions and relive the past sins with her, even though I believe it's unhealthy. But that is her need until, if ever, she comes out of that funk. It does not good for me to tell her 'we have to move on' or similar. 

We all have our demons to deal with, I suppose.


----------



## Eden1973 (Sep 9, 2013)

CRex said:


> Eden,
> 
> Good ideas in the last two paragraphs. However, I don't know what I would do for her. W has withdrawn so far from me, she won't allow me to do anything with or for her. That's makes it such an irony; W talks about how hurt she is from me NOT doing her things, now won't allow me to do any of those things
> CRex


Sorry, I wasn't clear. You individually decide what the other can do for you where you would feel loved. She decides what you can do & you decide what she can do. Write it out in detail. Give each other time to read it & process it. The other party be completely willing to meet that desire totally for the other, only with the other in mind not self.

It's time to do things differently. It's time to stop trying to be right & prove a point. It's time to just love the other flaws & all. Who's willing to be vulnerable again to the other & the other be respectful & loving?


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Eden,

I agree in spades.

But fear W has opted for plan B. 

Vulnerable. It seems to me that for me to be vulnerable, I have to let us defy everything this forum and all other counsel has suggested; bury past hurts, commit and move on. Believe me, I regret the pain and hurt W feels, and wish to eliminate it in the present and future. But, hashing and rehashing it, as W still needs, does not seem healthy.

Is submitting myself/us to more of the same being vulnerable, assuming I 'keep my dukes down', and don't get defensive while W asks same questions again?

What to do now?
Thanks


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

CRex, with regard to your wife and her need to discuss the past hurts again and again, I have one word for you: VALIDATION. If you're being defensive, dismissive, invalidating, or anything other than validating when your wife is trying to talk about her hurts from the past, you are just scoring them in deeper. Take yourself out of the equation, ego, defensiveness, etc, and just listen to her and be validating. This is extremely important.

Also, not much is made over your EA 7 years ago, but the kinds of things your wife read you saying to the OW were incredibly devastating and undermining, especially when compared to how the marriage has gone and how she feels about the ways you've treated her. If your wife is to reconnect with you, she'll need your help to heal some of these deeper wounds. VALIDATION. 

Become aware of everything you think, feel, do, and say. Focus on what your objective is, not venting your frustration of the moment. Do not rush or belittle. How your wife perceives things is her reality, and regardless of whether or not you agree or share that reality, you have to respect and address her reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Soulpotato,

I will focus on VALIDATING,as I think I do understand the enormity of her aggregate hurt from all the years. Yet, how many times should we do the same thing of hashing, rehashing the same hurts of 19 years, though? Other folks are saying 'do the same thing, you'll get the same results'.

I love the woman dearly, don't misunderstand. Yet, if W refuses to do anything with me, sleep in same bed, etc., how can one think the other person (me) is the one showing 'disdain'? 

Hope that helps,
Thanks


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Eden1973 said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear. You individually decide what the other can do for you where you would feel loved. She decides what you can do & you decide what she can do. Write it out in detail. Give each other time to read it & process it. The other party be completely willing to meet that desire totally for the other, only with the other in mind not self.
> 
> It's time to do things differently. It's time to stop trying to be right & prove a point. It's time to just love the other flaws & all. Who's willing to be vulnerable again to the other & the other be respectful & loving?


OK, I understand. Sure, I could easily do that. But W can't/won't allow me to do anything for her. She's been distancing herself that way for months, if not, years. She has no interest in rebuilding is my impression. She said she's stopping this forum that she suggested last Friday, because I didn't embrace it fast enough, with enough urgency. (I hadn't done this forum stuff 'til this past weekend.) 

I've said the same as you many times, 'Love the opther person despite their warts (flaws).' There's been but one perfect person on this earth. 

Thanks


----------



## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

CRex said:


> OK, I understand. Sure, I could easily do that. But W can't/won't allow me to do anything for her. She's been distancing herself that way for months, if not, years. She has no interest in rebuilding is my impression. She said she's stopping this forum that she suggested last Friday, because I didn't embrace it fast enough, with enough urgency. (I hadn't done this forum stuff 'til this past weekend.)
> 
> I've said the same as you many times, 'Love the opther person despite their warts (flaws).' There's been but one perfect person on this earth.
> 
> Thanks


Doesn't sound like your wife is willing to work on things. I'm not sure what your options are at this point unfortunately.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

CRex said:


> Soulpotato,
> 
> I will focus on VALIDATING,as I think I do understand the enormity of her aggregate hurt from all the years. Yet, how many times should we do the same thing of hashing, rehashing the same hurts of 19 years, though? Other folks are saying 'do the same thing, you'll get the same results'.
> 
> ...


Don't worry about what she is or isn't doing for a while. Stop keeping score. If you want to show her your love, do those kind and thoughtful things for her. Lead by example. Even if she rejects you. Because you're not doing it just to get a favorable response, right? Though that would be nice, you have to come from a place of love and not tally sheets. I had to learn to do this, too, and it has greatly improved things in my relationship.

You are probably ending up rehashing with your wife over and over because you're missing something. If she's not getting closure or getting the response she's asking for, if you're not listening closely and hearing the differences between her questions, then something is off, and it will keep looping until she completely gives up (or until you make that breakthrough in responding in a way that works for her, which I hope you'll learn in time).

Have you read this (Our Love is Too Good to Feel So Bad): http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s_ss_i_0_21?k=our+love+is+too+good+to+feel+so+bad&sprefix=our+love+is+too+good+

My partner and I found it very helpful, and we have had major communication problems when it comes to relationship/emotional things. 

It's possible that while trying to be different, you're still doing some of the same destructive things. Even if you don't realize it. By now, you two are both worn down to the point of being constantly frustrated, but your wife sounds like things have gone critical for her and that this marriage is just about over. If you want a chance of saving it, you really have to go all out and transform yourself as much as you can. You know by heart everything that has been hurting her and driving her crazy over the years.

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Wow.

I'm not blaming anyone here, because you can only operate on the information you're given. I am, however, questioning my H's motives, as it seems once again his ultimate goal is simply to get validation that his only option is to D me. I will state again, publicly, in writing, ...

If he wants to D me, I will not try to stop him.

I just don't know why we need to keep going through this exercise with everyone we talk to. But so be it.

So....


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

*As to how we fell in love*
We met at work. I was codependent and a rescuer, so a D'd man overwhelmed with half-custody of 4 children was a beacon to me, I'm sure. I wasn't completely dysfunctional, though. I put him off for 6 months. I was single, financially independent, capable, nice looking, etc. and smokers and men-with-children were NOT on my list. But he was charming and a salesman and told me everything I needed to hear. There simply wasn't anything we disagreed on, and we covered it all. He really, truly, seemed smitten by me and treated me like a queen.

After we got M'd though, everything changed. A year later, I felt like we celebrated our 10th anniversary, because he effectively just inserted me into his life right where his first W left off.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

*As to not speaking or asking questions...*
I like the idea. I was already doing quite well with that approach and liking it before this recent cycle (more later.) I plan to go back to it, as it worked quite well, I thought. It certainly addressed many of our issues.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

*As for his doing something for me that makes me feel loved...*
If you have an idea for something I could ask him to do that demonstrates loyalty or honesty or fidelity, then I would happily consider it.

Also, please understand, we got here for a reason. I used to ask him to do things. He would commit and then not do them. I couldn't depend upon him so I stopped asking. Then, he started attributing EVERYTHING HE DID as being something he did for me. I'm convinced he believed he wiped his axx for me. Now that he's doing absolutely nothing for me, his life looks pretty much exactly the same as it did before. Some people would find that enlightening, though I don't think he does.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

*As to validation...*
Soulpotato, your post is right on in many respects, but I take issue with "validation." Personally, I just find it patronizing. Maybe I just don't understand it. All I would have really liked on any issue is an acknowledgement of my feelings and my right to feel that way, and then his accommodating it with his actions. He didn't have to feel the same, just let me. Much like my example with his dislike for mushrooms, I heard it, accepted, and don't put mushrooms in his food.

I totally agree that H's defensive, dismissive response is a relationship killer to me.

It's sad to me that I feel more understanding and compassion from you in one post than I've experienced from my H in the seven years since.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

*As to my need to forgive...*
In order to forgive something, there has to be something to forgive. CRex didn't do anything wrong. He simply did what he thought was right. Neither he nor I possess the universal scale for what is right or wrong, we only have our own perspectives. The fact that CRex possessed a different belief on the EA is no more hurtful to me than his opinion about mushrooms.

My hurt is a direct a result of my failed expectations. My pain was self-inflicted and therefore the responsibility falls on me. If I hadn't ever expected him to be faithful, then learning of his EA wouldn't have been painful. It wouldn't have affected me anymore than hearing about his lastest golf score.

Expectations don't change anything. And I can't change anyone but me. If I didn't want to continue to be hurt, then I needed to change my expectations, which is exactly what I did. Where we are today is a direct result of all the changes I've made in myself. Mavash, I fully believe in the concept of only a fool does the same thing over and over expecting a different result. I don't expect my H to be faithful, or loyal, or honest, or anything, because that would be foolish. At this point, the only person I need for forgive is myself for not being more wise.

Besides, even if there was a sin to forgive, forgiveness doesn't eliminate consequences. Forgiving someone responsible for the death of a loved one doesn't bring them back.


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Okay that was hard to read.

Ouch.


----------



## Eden1973 (Sep 9, 2013)

CREXWIFE, I hear your pain. After all these years you've put up defense & coping mechanisms to deal with your pain yet you are still hurting. 

Yeah, forgiveness doesn't bring back a lost loved one but it gives you back your power & freedom lost to the offender when we're stuck in unforgiveness. You have let his actions change your entire life view & persona in some ways. He is the offender & you kept letting him offend by not letting go. Obviously he can't or won't see the pain he's caused you but why let his actions or lack thereof change you. Why did/have you done all the changing & adjusting? Why did "you" make that choice? Aren't you worthy enough to be free to be you?

You are wise, you know exactly what's been going on for years. It's just hasn't been acknowledged by the other party based on your needs yet you have stayed 19 years, why? Why are you still in this marriage? Is it because you still have a little ounce of hope?

Tell us exactly what it is that you want independent of the past or whether or not he is willing to follow through? What is your absolute, pure hearts desire for the remainder of your life on this earth?


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

*As for my being unwilling to make any effort...*
These things I know: In any disagreement, CRex needs to involve an outside person as a "tie-breaker." This person's decision is golden, regardless of who the person is or whether they agree with him or with me. When asked why this other (whoever) person has more credibility than me, even when I was saying the exact same thing, his responses included: he's a pastor, he's a trained counselor, he was previously D'd, she raised teenagers already, he's objective, he's a man, etc.) The point is, I will never be any of those things, so I will never be able to compete for credibility in his eyes.

3 weeks ago, we had our conflict about our son's education. CRex involved my bro and SIL as the tie-breaker. It ended with him accusing me of being irrational.
What I did: I recognized his intense need to handle it his way. I recognized his need to always involve a third party as a "tie-breaker." I removed myself from the entire scenario and let him handle it his way. This removes me as the middleman, along with all the irrelevant conversation, and lets him go directly to his source. I've adopted this approach in to all decisions and it has addressed quite a few issues, including his compliant that I'm too controlling and that we talk too much/long.

This I know: My H is very conflict-averse.

2.5 weeks ago, H was complaining about the state of our M. I said I felt like my approach was a good one and that it addressed a number of issues. I said if we're going to do something, then we need to devote our time to it and hash it out until it's resolved because I'm tired of going over it and over it and starting over again. He agreed and we gave it some time that night, then a short time the next evening before I left for school. When I got home from school, he was avoiding me. Whereas I would have normally pursued him, I felt relieved. I didn't want to deal with it either. Contrary to what my H claims, I don't like rehashing all this. So I adopted his approach of avoidance. For 10 days we did this. I thought it was working great. We did our own thing, there was no conflict, I thought it was good. The problems this addressed were my criticism, control, "barking,"long discussions, my out-negotiating him, rehashing the past, etc.

A week ago, he came home from a weekend trip to Fla playing golf with family. I picked him up from the airport as he asked. I was still doing the avoidance approach that had seemed to be working before he left. A little later, being clearly agitated, he complained again about the state of our M. He brought up again for the nth time in months the HNHN program, saying it was what we needed to do. I declined yet again, because we've already done it, I still remember it, I even still have the workbook from the first time. He complained that I'm not willing to work on things, that I don't make any suggestions. 

So I took into consideration his need for third-party validation as well as his need for limited time, and I suggested this site. I hand-held him through the process of setting up a profile and how to maneuver the site, showed him where the post button is, etc.

In the last couple days, I've read the suggestion about limiting the amount of time. At the first occurrence of a conversation, I took my phone with me and set the timer for 40 minutes. It didn't go well. When the time was up, I put an end to the discussion, then decided I would back up the duration to 20 minutes next time, since apparently 40 minutes was still too long. The next 20-minute session blew up at 9 minutes. The next one was under 2 minutes.

One of the recent posts suggested that we not talk. I'm completely on board with that suggestion, because it seemed to be working so well a couple weeks ago. I tried to approach the topic with CRex, timer in hand, only asking him one question (also a suggestion, to stop asking questions) as to whether he had read the post. That was the conversation that blew up at 9 minutes (really only 6 minutes, because I started the timer as soon as I asked him to talk but we didn't start right away.)


*If this is "unwilling to work on things," then he needs to file immediately and put me out of my misery.*


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed. Don't know where to start.

How could we discuss your questions, acknowledge them, give you the validation, closure, empathy that, I believe, you're looking for? But, do it in some sort of different fashion?

So the problem isn't 'communication' per se; it's that you don't feel heard and important.

I'll listen with unfolded arms as long as it takes.

You ARE important. Important enough to try talking-about-it-thing again, as long as we do something different.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

*As to the current state of things:*
I no longer care what our "biggest" problem is. They're all huge. 

What H wants from me is unreasonable, maybe impossible. I would equate H in this M to that of an absentee father and his son. The father is neglectful, unreliable, selfish and even a little abusive for the first 15 years of his son's life. Then one day, he looks around at the great relationship his friends have with their sons -- fathers that were involved and supporting and loving all along -- and decides he wants what they have. So he goes to his son expecting to be able to just "have" that, without all the years of investment it took to get there. He's pissed then because his son isn't wanting a warm father-son relationship with him, while his son doesn't even know who the heck he is.

Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.


----------



## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> *As to the current state of things:*
> I no longer care what our "biggest" problem is. They're all huge.
> 
> What H wants from me is unreasonable, maybe impossible. I would equate H in this M to that of an absentee father and his son. The father is neglectful, unreliable, selfish and even a little abusive for the first 15 years of his son's life. Then one day, he looks around at the great relationship his friends have with their sons -- fathers that were involved and supporting and loving all along -- and decides he wants what they have. So he goes to his son expecting to be able to just "have" that, without all the years of investment it took to get there. He's pissed then because his son isn't wanting a warm father-son relationship with him, while his son doesn't even know who the heck he is.
> ...


If you are so unhappy in this marriage, why do you stay in it?

Ugh. I need to stop reading this thread.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

So, your husband looks for the easy way out, He wants to find a magic answer or routine that works for every discussion, whether that be time limits etc. And yes I do understand you don't like when he gets the "public involvement" the mass opinion angle either, that drives me nuts also. I do appreciate your frustrations. 

You are frustrated and are at end of your rope and have a strong personality. One of your complaints is your husband never follows thru with things yet you keep saying if he wants a divorce then he should file. Your own experiences with him will tell yourself that he wont file so your expectations will again be let down which will further fuel your misery.

You have accepted that he wont change long term, he says the right things but the actions don't back it up so he has met that expectation. Since that is now your expectation and he is meeting it, are you content?

So while its probably not the right thing to ask. What do you want? If you want a divorce, you are more than capable of filing. If you want to work it out, you both know their a great deal of work to do yet you BOTH can will find roadblocks to not do it. Do you just want the status quo and be miserable?


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Eden, I'm working on myself. When I married, I fully invested and lost a big chuck of myself in the process because of the unhealthy dynamics. I'm working on undoing that but it's hard. I don't even know right now what I want. I have been making progress finding myself again and loving it, but I can't keep revisiting this stuff. At least the great thing about this mental vomit exercise I'm doing is that then everything is in black and white, and anyone who wants to know can just read it and leave me out of it.

As for why I'm staying, I'm trying to make lemonade out of lemons. Granted, it's not the hot chocolate I would prefer, but it's not dehydration either. We are both employed, both financially responsible, both devoted to our son. We both contribute to the house, share parenting responsibilities. We're cordial, even polite. If we're not trying to change things, there is no conflict, certainly no yelling. No one is an alcoholic, there's no substance abuse, there is no physical abuse. We each have interests that we enjoy, friends and family that love us. And certainly, our son benefits from two parents in the same house.

I married for better or for worse. I simply don't believe that my not getting the hot chocolate I wanted is grounds for D. I believe I could figure out how to be content with lemonade.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Wow, 2ntnuf, sorry I didn't buy your book, but that was really rather random.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> So while its probably not the right thing to ask. What do you want? If you want a divorce, you are more than capable of filing. If you want to work it out, you both know their a great deal of work to do yet you BOTH can will find roadblocks to not do it. Do you just want the status quo and be miserable?


My grounded desire, as opposed to my magic lamp desire, would be for the two of us to accept our differences and stop trying to make us into something we're not. Appreciate the positives, accept the negatives, and get on with our lives. I want to stop gutting what positives we do have because our M doesn't look like a Norman Rockwell painting. It could be better, it could be worse. Why is that so difficult to accept?


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

What I'm getting out of all of this is ..... it just doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong, who's more "rational" or who's got more reasons. All that matters are two things (1) that we're both heard and understand each other and (2) we land on the same page.

Sounds like I burned a lot of CRexWife's heart and soul in that process. How can I possibly repay you/her? How can I give you your her "just compensation", as Harley puts it?

My best answer: For whatever time we have left, I'll strive to be a better listener and work to understand better.


----------



## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> My grounded desire, as opposed to my magic lamp desire, would be for the two of us to accept our differences and stop trying to make us into something we're not. Appreciate the positives, accept the negatives, and get on with our lives. I want to stop gutting what positives we do have because our M doesn't look like a Norman Rockwell painting. It could be better, it could be worse. Why is that so difficult to accept?


Because what you've described is not a marriage, it's not a family. Because you're both unhappy. I'm not sure how old your son is, but no doubt he picks up on that. This is the example you are setting for him, this is how he will grow up thinking relationships and families work. If you are both willing to accept that, then, okay. 

I really don't understand why anyone would stay in this situation.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

I think M and family takes way too many forms to say that ours would not be. People have to figure out what works for them and run with that. A stay-at-home dad is not traditional, but if it works for them, fine. Some couples rarely see each other because of travel or shift-work. Some couples swing. Some take separate vacations. Other people live with things in their M that I couldn't, but it doesn't make it not a M just because it doesn't meet my pre-conceived notion. 

I'm trying to create an environment where we both accept each other as we are and stop expecting something different, to eliminate the conflict. That actually seems very healthy to me. There is more to life than M and I'd like to be able to spend some time enjoying it, rather than rehashing an unpleasant past all the time. No one ever gets everything they want out of anything in life. Something has to be compromised because you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are positives and negatives to this situation. I don't know any M that doesn't have. I think the very best thing we could do is to stop trying to change each other, and instead focus on ourselves, since that's the only person any of us can change anyway.

In your case, what is the very worst thing your spouse brings to the M? What do you do about it? Do you nag them until they change? Or do you figure a way around it? I'm just comparing our situation to friends that are nowhere near D, yet they have some pretty significant problems, things that they've been dealing with for years, things I'm not sure that I could. What makes our problems (current, not past) worse than theirs?


----------



## Random_Girl (Nov 17, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> I think M and family takes way too many forms to say that ours would not be. People have to figure out what works for them and run with that. A stay-at-home dad is not traditional, but if it works for them, fine. Some couples rarely see each other because of travel or shift-work. Some couples swing. Some take separate vacations. Other people live with things in their M that I couldn't, but it doesn't make it not a M just because it doesn't meet my pre-conceived notion.
> 
> I'm trying to create an environment where we both accept each other as we are and stop expecting something different, to eliminate the conflict. That actually seems very healthy to me. There is more to life than M and I'd like to be able to spend some time enjoying it, rather than rehashing an unpleasant past all the time. No one ever gets everything they want out of anything in life. Something has to be compromised because you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are positives and negatives to this situation. I don't know any M that doesn't have. I think the very best thing we could do is to stop trying to change each other, and instead focus on ourselves, since that's the only person any of us can change anyway.


The negatives far outweigh the positives in your case. Yes, there are a lot of family situations that are not traditional. I think the key ingredient to most of those is that they love each other, they *want to share their lives with each other* and they enjoy being together. Do you love your husband? Are you still in love with him?

No, it will not be healthy for your son to grow up with two parents who are unhappy together, don't get along or spend time together, and only focus on themselves. Not at all. He WILL pick up on that (I'm sure he already has) and have a skewed view of love and what a healthy relationship should look like. But you don't see it that way, so what's the problem. 

Everyone has to acknowledge their contributions to the marriage problems, and I don't think you have. I also don't think you ever will. It makes no sense to me why you wouldn't file for divorce, other than not wanting to be the one who does it first. That would be like admitting failure or making you the bad guy. Choosing a life of emptiness and unhappiness for your family because no one can 'have their cake and eat it too' makes NO sense. I'm sorry. 

There is no helping the situation when you refuse to see anyone's side but your own. 

I AM GOING TO BED NOW, goodnight for-ever.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

It's pretty clear you're willing to punish yourself for the martyred pleasure of punishing your husband more.


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

Hello CRex and wife.

There is too much to address. Let's be simple.
State 1. What ONE action you want from your spouse that you will accept as a gift of love? Be specific. Example: hold my hand - for a minute - when we are attending our son.

2. What ONE thing you are grateful of your spouse?

Answer these questions please There is no obligation for you to do what your spouse want from you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Do I love my H? Harley would say no, because an empty bank account and a slew of love busters eventually kill love. I would say I do, but it's packed away pretty deeply. Loving my H is much like hugging a porcupine -- there doesn't seem to be a way to do it without getting hurt.

I hear what you're saying about the environment for our son, but I don't believe it would be better for him to grow up in an environment with two parents who are unhappy with each other, don't get along or spend time together, and only focus on themselves, plus have to go back and forth between two houses. It's fine if we disagree on this point.

I understand that this forum is "TAM," but to suggest that my life is full of emptiness and unhappiness because I don't have a good relationship with my H is a little too codependent for me nowadays. There was a time, yes, but not anymore. Maybe it would be different if I had an OM pulling on me, but my H has convinced me that he's a normal guy, so why would I jump out of the fire and into the frying pan? 

I've accepted a boatload of my contributions to the problems over the years, and I've worked to address them. I'm barely recognizable from the person I was when I M'd. H hasn't changed at all, so part of my change involved accommodating that fact. Would I like him to be different? Sure! But there's no value in living in denial. I'm going with acceptance.

Lyris, I don't see how I'm punishing him. I'm addressing so many of his needs/complaints, it's ridiculous. I've jumped on his bandwagon on a number of things that are totally not my style, but I recognize that it's what he needs. The things that he fought for so adamantly in previous years, I don't contest anymore. It's not my fault that he doesn't understand that you can't continuously do things that are destructive to a M relationship, and still have a good relationship. I've certainly tried to tell him, but that got me that label of complaining all the time, so I don't anymore.

Yours4ever, you're apparently very brave for jumping into this. It seems we've worn out some of the others. I don't blame them, I'm worn out too. To answer your questions:

1. I will accept H buying me the occasional frappe. (At 700 calories each, I don't want one all the time.  )

2. I appreciate that he is a co-contributor financially and that he is active with our son's upbringing. (Technically, I guess that's two.)


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

I've already applied a number of things suggested in this thread. I'm willing to do more, within limits. I can accept a challenge.

But I have got to step out of this mode. I can't focus on work or school, I'm neglecting my son, I truly am miserable in this discussion. I would like to move on already.

If anyone has suggestions based on the current situation, I'm happy to hear it. I do not want to talk about the past anymore, but I can't pretend like it isn't the foundation of our relationship today.

I will say though that unless CRex ramps up his involvement, I'm probably going to check out of this and we can just let this thread die. It was an idea, not sure yet if it was a good one. If this isn't doing anything for us, I would much rather spend my time in the gardening forum.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

CRex said:


> I'm aware of a program that 5 out of 6 couples go through and accomplish being in love again and report better marriages afterwards even when affairs are involved. Can anyone point me to a program or strategy that accomplishes this?


Marriage Help Program For Couples

has an 85% success rate. H and I went in 2004. Make sure to attend the free post sessions after your weekend and you can even join a CORE group after that if you want to continue.

It's a peer to peer ministry. Couples who have been there and recovered do the presentations. The price is very reasonable and you can even get a scholarship if money is tight. H was unemployed when we went and all inclusive only cost us $65.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

After reading some more of the thread

The fact that there is no sex



CRex said:


> How do you find a mutually agreeable solution to the issue of sex when one party says never and the other is looking for some amount greater than zero (never)?
> 
> Thanks


The fact that CRex wife is very hostile and focused on CRex having an EA (7 years ago)

makes me wonder if there is projection going on here?

When my husband accused me of having a BF, he was the one who was having a secret affair. I learned from TAM that when women are in EA's they typically stop having sex with their H because women are monogamous.

I'm just going to be blunt:

*CRexWife, are you fantasizing @ another man?*

You can only attend Retrouvaille if there is no third party in the marriage. That is a stipulation.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Blonde said:


> After reading some more of the thread
> 
> The fact that there is no sex
> 
> ...


No, there is no other man, never was. Lack of sex is casualty of the state of the relationship.'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

CRex said:


> Mavash, Eden, et al,
> 
> New no. 1 problem, I think. Somehow, we need to discuss the past and come to some sort of resolution. I can say I understand the profound enormity of her hurt, but that doesn't mean diddly. She needs more discussion of how hurt she is, even though we've discussed it for years already.
> 
> ...


lots and LOTS of humble pie

"I'm sorry my actions hurt you so deeply"

I'm looking at this:



> W's question was 'why id I change my position after talking with friend/pastor, but not when she had expressed the same position as he had. Same question, five times. My answer was that simply, I values my own perspective/opinion, subject as it was, over hers, subjective as it was. That same question applied to two different situations. One had to do with withholding the allowance of my son, her stepson, when he hadn't set the kitchen table for dinner yet, and me having discipline him the first thing as I arrived home from work, when I hadn't seen him in a while and he has different rules at his mother's house. And the second had to do with, what we now term and emotional affair. I had exchanged e-mails with my high school girlfriend whom I hadn't seen in 30+ years, and had learned she had gone through a terribly ugly divorce.
> Same question, two scenarios. There was no ambiguity or lack of clarity as the same question has been addressed many times over the past 7 years, and 10 years, since the two incidences occurred.


And you minimized like crazy Crex.

You flat out admit that your opinion trumps hers

and you whitewash the interaction with that old GF and make yourself sound like the white knight ministering to a poor injured maiden in distress rather than a betrayer dishing out love, compassion, and attention which should have been going to your wife onto another woman

she'll never heal as long as you re-write history to make yourself the white knight and fail to take responsibility for the betrayal of trust


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

CRex said:


> "Gaslighting is a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented *with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity*.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim."


re-writing history to make oneself into a white knight ministering to a poor devastated divorcee

Your wife doesn't buy it and neither do I. You didn't marry a dummy.

As a recovering churchgoing evangelical Christian, I have a name for when my husband does this. I call it "The Revised Self-Sanctified Version".


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

CRex said:


> Soulpotato,
> 
> I will focus on VALIDATING,as I think I do understand the enormity of her aggregate hurt from all the years. Yet, how many times should we do the same thing of hashing, rehashing the same hurts of 19 years, though? Other folks are saying 'do the same thing, you'll get the same results'.
> 
> ...


You can't put a timetable on this but I suggest you plan on @ 2 years or so of validating. If you go back into self-righteous defensive mode gaslighting by re-writing yourself as the white knight, the clock starts back at zero.

"so sorry for hurting you so much!"

Maybe she will eventually feel safe enough with you to cry on your shoulder and release the hurt and pain. Venting the hurt is cleansing and healing but she has to feel emotionally safe with you in order to vent.

The way I used to explain it to my husband is that emotional release for me could be compared to sexual release for him. When I do not get emotional release it creates a great deal of frustration and builds a wall between us. Your wife has years and years of bottled up emotions so don't be surprised if you see some explosiveness once she is able to release them. Another thing I told my husband is that my anger is very close to passion. He was conflict avoidant too- I referred to his withdrawing from conflict as coitus interruptus. Draw close, hear and validate my anger, understand, and the best ever sex is not far behind.

So you eat humble pie, accept responsibility without being defensive or self righteous, offer her a strong shoulder which she can safely cry on.

Take her to Retrouvaille. You'll get this.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

These responses give me a lot of hope! You two can get through this!



CRexsWife said:


> My grounded desire, as opposed to my magic lamp desire, would be for the two of us to accept our differences and stop trying to make us into something we're not. Appreciate the positives, accept the negatives, and get on with our lives. I want to stop gutting what positives we do have because our M doesn't look like a Norman Rockwell painting. It could be better, it could be worse. Why is that so difficult to accept?





CRex said:


> What I'm getting out of all of this is ..... it just doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong, who's more "rational" or who's got more reasons. All that matters are two things (1) that we're both heard and understand each other and (2) we land on the same page.
> 
> Sounds like I burned a lot of CRexWife's heart and soul in that process. How can I possibly repay you/her? How can I give you your her "just compensation", as Harley puts it?
> 
> My best answer: For whatever time we have left, I'll strive to be a better listener and work to understand better.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Ok, you tossing out smart aleck comments is not the right way to respond to things, yes I agree. However, it sounds like your wife insists on arguing things to death in order to wear you down to her way of thinking. I think you hit a breaking point and say those things out of sheer frustration and just wanting it to end! (Read, for her to shut the hell up) It isnt necessary to spend hours and hours hashing out every argument, that doesnt mean that it is anymore meaningful than one you spend 20 minutes working on. She needs to learn to back off, and you need to learn how to cut the arguments down to a reasonable time without being snarky. Try saying, look, we have been at this for two hours and are making no headway...lets let this go, think things over, and come back to it later on tonight or tomorrow.





Random_Girl said:


> Because what you've described is not a marriage, it's not a family. Because you're both unhappy. I'm not sure how old your son is, but no doubt he picks up on that. This is the example you are setting for him, this is how he will grow up thinking relationships and families work. If you are both willing to accept that, then, okay.
> 
> I really don't understand why anyone would stay in this situation.


RG,

Yes, that is certainly my struggle. Again, I do love her. I want to be on the same page, have and show affection to/from her, do things with her, sleep in same room/ same bed, make love, etc. 
In my mind, couples argue, negotiate, deal with conflict, etc. but at the end of the day, still love each other. 

For better or worse, in my mind, means sickness and health (physical). I look at it this way. If she was in a car wreck and was paralyzed and restricted to a wheelchair, would I divorce her? Heck no! Would she divorce me if I were the one paralyzed? I hope not. So, it's pretty much the same. 

I hadn't ever conceived of a scenario where a husband and a wife would live in same house, but just be roommates, not do things together, etc. I agree, that's not a marriage. That's not even a roommate. I did things with roommates as I recall.

On the other hand, my christian beliefs don't allow me to D simply because my or her emotional needs aren't being met. That only leaves one choice, FIX US, which is going to take supernatural intervention.

Son is 13, BTW. And yes he picks up on it. That i a concern. Part of my problem is my parents never argued that I was aware of, which is the opposite extreme. W and I both believe part of parenting is to teach the kids how to compromise, how to negotiate.

Thanks,
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Blonde said:


> You can't put a timetable on this but I suggest you plan on @ 2 years or so of validating. If you go back into self-righteous defensive mode gaslighting by re-writing yourself as the white knight, the clock starts back at zero.
> 
> "so sorry for hurting you so much!"
> 
> ...


OK, Thanks. I'll have to google Retrouvaille. (I hope it's a drug.) 
Thanks for the relative encouragement.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Blonde said:


> re-writing history to make oneself into a white knight ministering to a poor devastated divorcee
> 
> Your wife doesn't buy it and neither do I. You didn't marry a dummy.
> 
> As a recovering churchgoing evangelical Christian, I have a name for when my husband does this. I call it "The Revised Self-Sanctified Version".


Blonde,

Help me understand the Revised Self-Sactified thing, please.
Humbly,
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Blonde,
I just re-read and understood the white knight thing. Understood and agreed. I cannot be more sorry nor regret that event more. It was stupid, stupid, stupid. No defense is valid.
Humbly,
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Yours4ever,

1. Just engage and give me an unbiased chance. I'm starting to 'get it'.

2. She's a wonderful mom and extraordinary person when not hurting so much.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Blonde, thank you so much for your post!!! You are like a beacon in the black of night!! Your words are so close to what's in my head that if I didn't know better, I would have thought I wrote it. And with the animosity directed my way in some of these posts, it's so comforting to feel like someone understands. You even sound a little hostile, what I've been accused of being, LOL. Anyway, thank you!!



> she'll never heal as long as you re-write history to make yourself the white knight and fail to take responsibility for the betrayal of trust


 Absolutely right on! This is how every conflict goes and so nothing is ever resolved. To this day regarding the EA, he still says that AT HE TIME, he didn't know it was a bad thing. I call B.S. because you don't hide things when you're not doing anything wrong. When I point that out, he just says, "I can't explain that." There's always a "legitimate and noble" reason for whatever he does, even when he feels the need to lie or hide it. This goes all the way back to the first incident 3 months into our M. In our discussions, I used to refer it to as his need for "absolution," what you call the "revised self-sanctifying." I have never been able to chip through his defensive armor enough to accomplish anything, and any ***** I might have landed is completely repaired by the next time. So I completely agree with you, but it's not a new topic. Of course, it will undoubtedly mean more to him now that you're saying it.

This is a perfect example:


> I had an emotional affair 7-8 years ago where I emailed my high school girlfriend who lives 800 miles away and I have not seen in 30+ years, and could not pick out of a line up today. I had read in the newspaper she went through a nasty divorce and I exchanged 5-6 emails.


 If I recall correctly, what really happened is that he thought of her on her birthday, Googled her to get her address, saw the article about her D, and included a note of sympathy along with his email address in the birthday card he sent her.

One of my favorite quotes is "When someone shows you who they are, believe them." Well I do. My H has shown me that he is someone that is either fully aware of what's inappropriate in a M but does it anyway and covers it up by lying about it, or he's someone that is totally clueless about what it takes to build a healthy M and will casually lie about it even when he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. 

So whereas I completely get your advice to CRex about how he needs to listen and empathize, I just don't believe he has it in him. I think the very best I could ever hope to get from him is to "say the right things," but I don't believe it will ever be authentic. Did you see the movie Shutter Island? (Spoiler alert!) The whole movie is this elaborate production designed for the sole purpose of getting the main character to step back into reality, to correct a psychotic break that occurred as the result of something horribly traumatic. They finally accomplish their goal and he remembers everything and breaks down, only to revert back to his previous delusional state in the last scene of the movie. Interesting movie, very sad, but it reminds me totally of CRex. I don't think he's painting the white knight image for my sake, I think he's doing it for himself, that he needs to believe it.

How in the world did you ever get through to your H?


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> You flat out admit that your opinion trumps hers


 I could live with that. That just means he's selfish. What he has shown me is that EVERYONE's opinion trumps mine.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> 1. Just engage and give me an unbiased chance. I'm starting to 'get it'.


Nope, asking too much. I asked for a frappe once a week.

Alternatively, I'll change mine...

1. I would like you to reconcile the fact that you do things that are very destructive to the M that you claim you don't know is bad at the time you're doing it, but then you lie/deny to cover it up. Reconcile that please in a manner that makes sense to me and everyone else here (or just to everyone else here and perhaps they can explain it to me.)


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

I have heard the praises sung for Retrouvaille for years. I suspect it's a great program, but I can't seem to come up with the enthusiasm for it that I believe would be necessary for it to be successful. We've done seminars throughout our M, even weekend-long retreats. They were all great programs, but it doesn't work if you don't apply what you've learned, much less actually remember it. Has anyone done it? Can anyone tell me how it's different than a Willard Harley/HNHN retreat, or a Gary Smalley retreat? Those were great too but they didn't stick. If I agree to do it and then get there and it's the same sort of program with the same sort of information, I think I'll throw up.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Marriage Help Program For Couples
> 
> has an 85% success rate. H and I went in 2004. Make sure to attend the free post sessions after your weekend and you can even join a CORE group after that if you want to continue.
> 
> It's a peer to peer ministry. Couples who have been there and recovered do the presentations. The price is very reasonable and you can even get a scholarship if money is tight. H was unemployed when we went and all inclusive only cost us $65.


WOW! Thanks, Blonde. I read info on Retrouville.org. That was encouraging, but I don't see W being interested at this point. I'll pursue some more and, at least, be ready and willing when W might be.
Thanks again,
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> I could live with that. That just means he's selfish. What he has shown me is that EVERYONE's opinion trumps mine.


I'll admit that I made several, even many, decisions like that especially with regard to the kids many years ago because I felt I had a bigger stake, a bigger 'interest' in those kids. I felt like I was more concerned about maintaining a relationship with them than I perceived you were. And, you being raised so strict, I felt you had a parenting paradigm that wasn't like mine and that was going to damage those relationships with those kids and make them run to their mothers' house like they ultimately did because our house was already significantly more strict than their mothers'. That's was was driving much of my thoughts/actions. 

But, I was wrong then and I'd like to do it better, as a team, now.

Fast forward to now. If you refuse to discuss anything with me, how can we make joint decisions involving you when you're so withdrawn and won't participate? That's a recipe for continued failure, isn't it? You're positioning me to fail at the same time as complaining that I am 'selfish'. 

It's a no-win situation going forward. How can we joint parent under these conditions?

Catch-22
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> Blonde, thank you so much for your post!!! You are like a beacon in the black of night!! Your words are so close to what's in my head that if I didn't know better, I would have thought I wrote it. And with the animosity directed my way in some of these posts, it's so comforting to feel like someone understands. You even sound a little hostile, what I've been accused of being, LOL. Anyway, thank you!!
> 
> Absolutely right on! This is how every conflict goes and so nothing is ever resolved. To this day regarding the EA, he still says that AT HE TIME, he didn't know it was a bad thing. I call B.S. because you don't hide things when you're not doing anything wrong. When I point that out, he just says, "I can't explain that." There's always a "legitimate and noble" reason for whatever he does, even when he feels the need to lie or hide it.
> 
> ...


Blonde and CRexWife,
CRexWife remembers EA much better than me which is understandable. The bottom line is I screwed up. If you want me to explain it, I went off to college and never returned to my hometown. So, I got nostalgic every once in a while, and googled friends, guys and gals, that I've not seen or heard from since leaving my home town. I didn't even recall the birthday aspect. I messed up. I realize how hurtful that was. I cannot be more sorry or regret it more. 
I'm not minimizing it. I'm not glorifying it. I deserve your harshest judgement. I messed up. I'm profoundly sorry. It hasn't happened since. It won't happen ever again. It's not who I am now. Please forgive me. 
If you want to keep discussing this because I haven't explained it to your satisfaction, let me know. I've apologized, repented, and never done that since, so it's pretty much out of my mind as sins should be, never to be repeated, right? 
For the good of our relationship going forward, please forgive me.


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

CRex said:


> Blonde and CRexWife,
> CRexWife remembers EA much better than me which is understandable. The bottom line is I screwed up. If you want me to explain it, I went off to college and never returned to my hometown. So, I got nostalgic every once in a while, and googled friends, guys and gals, that I've not seen or heard from since leaving my home town. I didn't even recall the birthday aspect. I messed up. I realize how hurtful that was. I cannot be more sorry or regret it more.
> I'm not minimizing it. I'm not glorifying it. I deserve your harshest judgement. I messed up. I'm profoundly sorry. It hasn't happened since. It won't happen ever again. It's not who I am now. Please forgive me.
> If you want to keep discussing this because I haven't explained it to your satisfaction, let me know. I've apologized, repented, and never done that since, so it's pretty much out of my mind as sins should be, never to be repeated, right?
> For the good of our relationship going forward, please forgive me.



&#55357;&#56842; now go get that frappe thing (I'm from Malaysia and I don't know what that it)



It is difficult to forgive, but to love is to forgive...both him and yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

crexWife,

Will openness to your spouse phone and accounts will help you to trust slowly again?
If so, in return, what will you do to show appreciation to crex?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> If you want me to explain it, I went off to college and never returned to my hometown. So, I got nostalgic every once in a while, and googled friends, guys and gals, that I've not seen or heard from since leaving my home town. I didn't even recall the birthday aspect. I messed up. I realize how hurtful that was. I cannot be more sorry or regret it more.


Does anyone else see this as minimizing? Sanctifying? Justifying? Even in spite of the "I know I did wrong" statment?



> If you refuse to discuss anything with me, how can we make joint decisions involving you when you're so withdrawn and won't participate? That's a recipe for continued failure, isn't it? You're positioning me to fail at the same time as complaining that I am 'selfish'.


In day-to-day life with you, I'm not complaining about anything. If we could stop having these conversations, you wouldn't hear it then either. I accept the fact that this is you and I'm trying to work around it.


CRex, you obviously missed my revision of my #1 response. Here it is again.



> 1. I would like you to reconcile the fact that you do things that are very destructive to the M that you claim you don't know is bad at the time you're doing it, but then you lie/deny to cover it up. Reconcile that please in a manner that makes sense to me and everyone else here (or just to everyone else here and perhaps they can explain it to me.)


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> Will openness to your spouse phone and accounts will help you to trust slowly again?
> If so, in return, what will you do to show appreciation to crex?


yours4ever, I don't see value in his sharing his passwords. I don't care to live my life snooping, and I believe if he wanted to hide what he was doing, he would work around that.

What he could do right now is answer the question above I've post now twice.

What I'm willing to do right now is to buy him a frappe once a week, too. We actually already do this, so it should be simple.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

CRex, you keep promising something if I'll just re-engage, stating that you'll show me you've changed.

But it seems to me that if you really wanted to convince me of that, you would already be doing it. But I don't see any change in you. You're still sniping, still minimizing. As far as change, what are you waiting for?? You are never going to "talk" me into believing you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

crexwife, you dont think there is any chance of the marriage and/or your spouse --change for the better?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

I do see it getting better. It is getting better already, just not the way CRex wants it to. But I dont see that he's doing any changing, so why would it? You can argue that "it isn't a marriage" if we don't do anything together, don't sleep in the same bed, don't have sex. But I would argue that doing those things still doesn't make a marriage when there is dishonesty, sniping, defensiveness, etc.

When he answered what one thing I could do, his answer was global and vague. Engage, what does rhat mean? Go to a movie or dinner? Would that make it a marriage such that his changes aren't necessary? I would be curious what his definition of "engage" is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

CRexsWife said:


> I would be curious what his definition of "engage" is.


It means sex. LOL


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> So whereas I completely get your advice to CRex about how he needs to listen and empathize, I just don't believe he has it in him. I think the very best I could ever hope to get from him is to "say the right things," but I don't believe it will ever be authentic. ...
> 
> How in the world did you ever get through to your H?


My husband is not capable of empathy and I had to lay down the expectation that he can ever genuinely understand. (Expectations are premeditated resentments)

BUT he has learned to "say the right things" (from Retrouvaille) and just the fact that he was humble enough to engage in that territory which is so totally foreign to him helps me to feel cared for. 

When I feel cared for, I want to make love.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> I have heard the praises sung for Retrouvaille for years. I suspect it's a great program, but I can't seem to come up with the enthusiasm for it that I believe would be necessary for it to be successful.


Retrouvaille will even take couples with a restraining order in place. The only thing they won;t take is a couple with a third party in the marriage.

The difference with Retrouvaille is the post sessions (for us that consisted of seven 4 hour sessions each Saturday after the weekend) and then CORE after that monthly. So its not just a wham bam weekend. You get discipled in how to walk the talk.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> > If you want me to explain it, I went off to college and never returned to my hometown. So, I got nostalgic every once in a while, and googled friends, guys and gals, that I've not seen or heard from since leaving my home town. I didn't even recall the birthday aspect. I messed up. I realize how hurtful that was. I cannot be more sorry or regret it more.
> 
> 
> Does anyone else see this as minimizing? Sanctifying? Justifying? Even in spite of the "I know I did wrong" statment?
> Does anyone else see this as minimizing? Sanctifying? Justifying? Even in spite of the "I know I did wrong" statment?


Yep.

CRex, just "I"M SO SORRY I HURT YOU!" without all the excuses and whitewashing.

And I guarantee you will have to repeat this. After 7 years of attempting to pry a valid apology out of you, she doesn't believe you and you'll have to repeat it over and over and OVER again. Look at the bright side, it's good for your humility muscles.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> It means sex. LOL


Thanks, but no, that's not what I meant. I meant do things like discuss things friendly, communicate more than through this forum. Perhaps attend a company Christmas party with me. 

If a complaint is that I make decisions without the 2nd party, the 2nd party has to give me her input, discuss the issue, for example.

Sorry if I wasn't clear,
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Yep.
> 
> CRex, just "I"M SO SORRY I HURT YOU!" without all the excuses and whitewashing.
> 
> And I guarantee you will have to repeat this. After 7 years of attempting to pry a valid apology out of you, she doesn't believe you and you'll have to repeat it over and over and OVER again. Look at the bright side, it's good for your humility muscles.


OK, you have a consensus. Then, help me how to explain it as I was asked, in a non-minimizing fashion.

I AM so sorry I hurt CRexWife with this stupid action. I am SO SORRY I hurt CRexWife with that stupid action.

I genuinely mean for this to come across with humility, regret and unabashed shame.

crex


----------



## evenstar (Jul 26, 2013)

So, Crexswife, why don't YOU just file for D from HIM? You can't forgive. You're still barking at him by arguing incessantly for seven years. No matter what he does, you're just going to dismiss it. You get to hold all the cards by saying HE should file, so you can blame him again, and he'll live up to your expectations of disappointment.

Ugh.

You suffered an attachment injury and never recovered. If you can't figure out how to get past it, do both of you a favor and move on.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

CRex, you seem to be missing my posts. I changed my frappe request to getting an answer to this question instead. Here it is again.



> 1. I would like you to reconcile the fact that you do things that are very destructive to the M that you claim you don't know is bad at the time you're doing it, but then you lie/deny to cover it up. Reconcile that please in a manner that makes sense to me and everyone else here (or just to everyone else here and perhaps they can explain it to me.)


I know you're new to this message board thing, so I'm not sure if you're missing it or ignoring it. Could you please just acknowledge it one way or the other? You can refuse to answer it, of course, but then I won't keep asking.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> If a complaint is that I make decisions without the 2nd party, the 2nd party has to give me her input, discuss the issue, for example.


There was never a complaint that you make decisions without me. The complaint was that after you and I discuss it, you value your opinion over mine anyway, and then trump the whole effort by submitting to the opinion of a 3rd party. Those are perfect reasons for removing myself as the middleman.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> My husband is not capable of empathy and I had to lay down the expectation that he can ever genuinely understand.


 Blonde, how did you come up with that diagnosis? Or is it just your own evaluation based on personal experience?


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

he did apoligize, in his own way, and also in a simple sincere way like a poster suggested.

It is now your turn to say to yourself,

"i forgive him. He didnt know how to ______. I am hurt so much. Its ok too. 
Now its time for Me to disengage with hurt, 

Why?
You deserve to be happy.
It is time to be happy. Let go of hurt."

He will disappoint you again and again. It is human nature. People make mistake.

It is ok to be hury, angry and disapponted.
You just have to forgive again and again. Not for him, but for yourself.. So you can be at peace with him and yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

crex, i once read in a emotional intelligent language book,
That a person can be well intentioned, but all the while their body language is incongruent. 
You may be loving but your body language sends a different vibe.

It also addresses how a person is not able to be in touch with important emotions and that emotiona are actually glue to a relationship. You know why people love babies beside the fact that they are cute? It's bcoz they are authentic and transparent with emotions.


I humbly suggest you read (not implying anything) lots on E.Q, and books on conflict resolutions.
Dont do It for he.
Do It for yourself, to be a better man.

Wishing u all the best!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

> 1. I would like you to reconcile the fact that you do things that are very destructive to the M that you claim you don't know is bad at the time you're doing it, but then you lie/deny to cover it up. Reconcile that please in a manner that makes sense to me and everyone else here (or just to everyone else here and perhaps they can explain it to me.)


I will try to explain why it appears to you that I do things that you perceive are very destructive to the marriage. 

First, I know nothing good comes of lying, so that's why I've stopped doing that. Period. You know that. I've given you all my passwords, you know all my accounts, etc. I have nothing to hide these days. You know where I am at all times. I don't have alternative places to go.

In the past, sometimes I think I lied to keep my world in tact, to play God, as it were. (To keep you and Angie in my world of going camping together, for example, or to keep you and Q in my life, all the while thinking I was right and above your mistaken opinion/view.) But, let me be perfectly clear. I'm explaining how I thought then, so as to explain it to you such that you might understand. IT IS NOT HOW I THINK OR OPERATE NOW. I am smarter now, and want to be part of an equal partnership.

Second, I'll admit, if you abdicate and just say 'see a 3rd party', leaving me to make all the decisions, I'm sure I'll make many decisions wrong (in your eyes.) But, I'm smart enough now to know that even if we decide on something and agree upon it, even if it turns out to be wrong, it will have been a good decision BECAUSE WE MADE IT TOGETHER. 

Third, I'll also say that there have been times where, I perceive myself as the weaker of our two personalities and that plays a part in it sometimes. How? Because there's a part of me that sometimes rears its ugly self and compels me to stand up to your strong personality because I'm supposed to be the wise leader and not abdicate to you simply because you vent stronger than me. (I hope that sounded respectful as I meant it to be.)

Also, I'd say that, when discussing an issue, I don't realize I am doing anything differently than you expressing your opinion, except perhaps you have more reasons. In my mind, my rationale is just as reasonable as I'm sure as you think yours is reasonable. Yet, I'm supposed to lead and sometimes make the hard decisions. That's why, I believe we have to learn to communicate and negotiate better, at least me.


That's why I like the concept of POJA so much. In it, we don't do anything until we both enthusiastically agree to it. However, for us, that might mean hashing and rehashing things forever such that we never to anything. 

LET ME BE PERFECTLY CLEAR, I am attempting to explain why things got fouled up in the past such that decisions I made or actions I did, were very destructive to our relation. IT IS NOT HOW I THINK NOW OR HOW I PLAN ON ACTING GOING FORWARD. 

Being on the same page with you is more necessary in our marriage them others probably due to my hurting you in the past, or for whatever reasons. At any rate, being on the same page as you is my paramount goal.

I hope that makes sense to you/others. I've done my best to retrospectively analyze some of these situations and give you something that makes sense, hopefully, for you.

I hope that makes sense to you.
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Blonde,

"I'm sorry " is a turn off for CRexWife. She says "apologies don't mean anything to me".

I say "I'm sorry" often.

Thanks, though.
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

yours4ever said:


> crex, i once read in a emotional intelligent language book,..........
> I humbly suggest you read (not implying anything) lots on E.Q, and books on conflict resolutions.
> Dont do It for he.
> Do It for yourself, to be a better man.
> ...


Yours,
OK, That sounds like great positive feedback. But, What's the 'Q' stand for in E.Q? 
Thx
CRex:scratchhead:


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> *As to validation...*
> Soulpotato, your post is right on in many respects, but I take issue with "validation." Personally, I just find it patronizing. Maybe I just don't understand it. *All I would have really liked on any issue is an acknowledgement of my feelings and my right to feel that way*, and then his accommodating it with his actions. He didn't have to feel the same, just let me. Much like my example with his dislike for mushrooms, I heard it, accepted, and don't put mushrooms in his food.
> 
> I totally agree that H's defensive, dismissive response is a relationship killer to me.
> ...


That is basically what validation is.  I'm sorry if it struck you the wrong way. Done correctly, validating is not the least bit patronizing. I'm glad my compassion for you came through - I only hope Crex can do what he needs to do for you and sees that the dismissiveness and defensiveness are extremely destructive to love feelings. I'm telling you, that book I mentioned was helpful!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

So to the group, this is the question asked:_
I would like you to reconcile the fact that you do things that are very destructive to the M that you claim you don't know is bad at the time you're doing it, but then you lie/deny to cover it up. Reconcile that please in a manner that makes sense to me and everyone else here (or just to everyone else here and perhaps they can explain it to me.)_

And CRex starts off with response by stating this is his intention in his answer:
_I will try to explain why it appears to you that I do things that you perceive are very destructive to the marriage. _
And then he went on to discuss his need for POJA. 

Does everyone else see this as an answer to my question and I'm the only one missing it? I agree, it is an answer, but it seems so off-topic to me. One of us is not getting this.


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> So to the group, this is the question asked:_
> I would like you to reconcile the fact that you do things that are very destructive to the M that you claim you don't know is bad at the time you're doing it, but then you lie/deny to cover it up. Reconcile that please in a manner that makes sense to me and everyone else here (or just to everyone else here and perhaps they can explain it to me.)_
> 
> And CRex starts off with response by stating this is his intention in his answer:
> ...


Yep, I when read that sentence in his post above, I was like, "What?"

He's using the phrases, "appears to you" and "that you perceive", to put everything back on you, like you're crazy. I guess it's like blame shifting. He's not owning anything.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Thank you, soccermom2three! You and Blonde are actually making me feel sane again! I don't need everyone to see things as I do, but it sure is nice to know I'm not alone.

CRex, let me phrase this differently....

Why did you hide/lie about things when you didn't think you were doing anything wrong?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Soulpotato, is CRex's opening statement above a good example of what you mean by validation? It's exactly what I think of when I think of validating, and exactly what I don't appreciate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

I used those terms ('you perceive' and 'appears to you') because I had no intention of being destructive to our relationship or invalidate or hurt anybody. I am stupid and perhaps insensitive, but not retarded. Who would intentionally want to destroy their marriage?

Gosh, this is so clear in my head. I'm sorry my words are so unclear, destructive and alienating.

I will try to explain why I lied/hid things that I thought would upset you because, in hindsight, I was trying to play God and control your reaction to other things (Angie, Q, C). This proved out to have very destructive ramifications to our marriage which I very much regret and have empathy for your pain. I have learned that and am remorsefully sorry. 

AT THE TIME, I didn't think it was wrong because I thought I understood every one's motives and you were over-reacting to what they had said. I realize now, that that was INvalidating you/your feelings rather than understanding and validating them.
I feared losing you or others from my life. (Angie, Q, C)

I've learned that nothing good comes of lying, so that's why I've stopped doing that. Period. You know that. I've given you all my passwords, you know all my accounts, etc. I have nothing to hide these days. You know where I am at all times. I don't have alternative places to go.

In the past, sometimes I think I lied to keep my world in tact, to play God, as it were. (To keep you and Angie in my world of going camping together, for example, or to keep you and Q in my life, all the while thinking I was right and above your mistaken opinion/view.) But, let me be perfectly clear. I'm explaining how I thought then, so as to explain it to you such that you might understand. IT IS NOT HOW I THINK OR OPERATE NOW. I am smarter now, and want to be part of an equal partnership.

I'll also say that there have been times where, I perceive myself as the weaker of our two personalities and that plays a part in it sometimes. How? Because there's a part of me that sometimes rears its ugly self and compels me to stand up to your strong personality because I'm supposed to be the wise leader and not abdicate to you simply because you vent stronger than me. (I hope that sounded respectful as I meant it to be.)

Also, I'd say that, when discussing an issue, I don't realize I am doing anything differently than you expressing your opinion, except perhaps you have more reasons. In my mind, my rationale is just as reasonable as I'm sure as you think yours is reasonable. Yet, I'm supposed to lead and sometimes make the hard decisions. That's why, I believe we have to learn to communicate and negotiate better, at least me.

LET ME BE PERFECTLY CLEAR, I am attempting to explain why things got fouled up in the past such that decisions I made or actions I did, were very destructive to our relation. IT IS NOT HOW I THINK NOW OR HOW I PLAN ON ACTING GOING FORWARD. 

Being on the same page as you is my paramount goal.

I hope that makes sense to you/others. I've done my best to retrospectively analyze some of these situations and give you something that makes sense, hopefully, for you.

I apologize for being confusing. I am making a very conscious effort NOT to invalidate; to empathize, and not use words that convey something offensive, for I truly, genuinely think I'm different now.

Please understand. 

CRex


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

A lot of your response sounds like you did a cut-n-paste.

Let's try it this way.... And I'm going to ask you to use very susinct answers please, just one or two sentences. I'm afraid all your wordiness and repetitiveness is confusing me.

AT THE TIME, did you think that if you had asked me if it was alright if you mailed your HS sweetheart a birthday card and gave her your contact info, do you think I would have said it was okay?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

No, I do not think you would like it . So, by extension, had I thought it through, I wod have realized it was destructive to our relationship. I was an idiot, like all men who turn to vices like porn or whatever to fill a void.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

CRex, you're almost there but still missing it...don't say "like all men", or compare your actions to anything or anyone else. 

Keep it simple..."No, I knew you would not like it and I was wrong. I'm sorry."

You may not have thought it through and realized you were purposely being deceptive...that's another tangent all together. But there's no comparing to other wrongs or vices...you simply knew it was wrong, therefore you hid it. Appologize and leave the other crap silent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eden1973 (Sep 9, 2013)

CRex said:


> I was an idiot, like all men who turn to vices like porn or whatever to fill a void.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ouch!! This is one example of why I said STOP talking & do some simple things for each other to show LOVE, baby steps.

In this one CRex you started good but ended it bad. You justified by adding "to feel a void-"' should have just stoped after the acknowledgement. Just own it as she doesn't care about the "why" just the acknowledgement of the hurt. 

Self is a powerful thing .


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Too many words, pare it down please.

Your answer is "No, I do not think you would like it.". 

Then, after you started the exchange with her, did you delete the emails because you knew I would be angry/hurt if I found them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> Too many words, pare it down please.
> 
> Your answer is "No, I do not think you would like it.".
> 
> ...


Yes. It was stupid. I am so sorry. Never again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

Women need validation and acknowledgement of their feelings,
While men tend to explain why we shouldn't feel that way and they tend to fix things,.. When all we want is, "yes. You're hurt. I get it. Sorry"
I know it is very frustrating. I just went through that two days straight.


Crex and wife.. Be patient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Okay, so far we've got...
-No, you did not think I would like it if you asked if you could mail a b-day card.
-Yes, you knew I would be angry/hurt if I found your emails evidencing that you did.

Yet in your mind, "at the time," you didn't think that you doing something that you knew I wouldn't like, something you knew I would be hurt/angry about if I found out, qualified as something that would be destructive to the relationship?

Or, is your reasoning based upon your intention that I not find out, so that you could have avoided the "damage?"


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

I supposed you want the John Grey (men r from mars, women r from Venus)'s version of apology:

"I was selfish, inconsiderate, uncaring.. That my behavior has caused tremendous hurt. You have the right to feel angry and hurt. I'm sorry"


My husband had done many things that were hurtful and upsetting. IF he were to ever apologize, he just said "sorry" and that's all I got. And I accepted his apologies.

It takes a strong man to apologize, even with only one word.


Crexwife, 
I can tell from experience, if you expect a spouse to do exactly the way you want, ..there will always be constant disappointment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

At this point, I'm not looking for an apology at all. I'm just trying to get an understanding.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

I don't recall even considering you might find out. I was stupid. I was inconsiderate. I was wrong. 
I'll regret it til the day I die.
CRex


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Okay, it sounds like you're saying that your reasoning was based upon your intention that I not find out, since it sounds like you never even considered that I would.

Please stop apologizing; it's not what I'm looking for right now.

Okay, so far we've got...
-No, you did not think I would like it if you asked if you could mail a b-day card.
-Yes, you knew I would be angry/hurt if I found your emails evidencing that you did.
-You did these things based upon the assumption that I would never find out.

At the time, were you still wanting to have a healthy M, still considering yourself a good husband, still hoping to reap the benefits of a loving and devoted W?


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Yes, at the time, I still wanted to have a healthy M, still considered myself a good husband, and still hoped to reap the benefits of a loving and devoted W.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Okay, so far we've got...
-No, you did not think I would like it if you asked if you could mail a b-day card.
-Yes, you knew I would be angry/hurt if I found your emails evidencing that you did.
-You did these things based upon the assumption that I would never find out.
-While exhibiting these behaviors, you still considered yourself a good H worthy of the benefits of a loving and devoted W.

I believe this is the first problem, because I strongly disagree with your position on point 4.

Was there any point in time when you experienced damage to your M relationship as a result of these actions?


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Yes. It is a dichotomy. 
Yes. Damage was experienced the days, years since that dispicible act was committed.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Okay, so far we've got...
-No, you did not think I would like it if you asked if you could mail a b-day card.
-Yes, you knew I would be angry/hurt if I found your emails evidencing that you did.
-You did these things based upon the assumption that I would never find out.
-While exhibiting these behaviors, you still considered yourself a good H worthy of the benefits of a loving and devoted W.
-Contrary your belief, you started experiencing ramifications resulting from the damage to your M days after I discovered the exchange.

In response to the damage, after time in counseling and hours of discussion, did you claim to understand what you did wrong and apologize and promise to never do it again?


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Yes, I believe I did.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Okay, so far we've got...
-No, you did not think I would like it if you asked if you could mail a b-day card.
-Yes, you knew I would be angry/hurt if I found your emails evidencing that you did.
-You did these things based upon the assumption that I would never find out.
-While exhibiting these behaviors, you still considered yourself a good H worthy of the benefits of a loving and devoted W.
-Contrary your belief, you started experiencing ramifications resulting from the damage to your M days after I discovered the exchange.
-After counseling and discussions of the event, you claimed to understand what you did wrong and apologized and promised to never do it again.

And then you did the same thing with C. You did something you knew I wouldn't approve of, something that would be hurtful to me if I found out, and tried to hide it from me to keep me from finding out. This time, you made the same choice even knowing that it was destructive to your M.

And then you did it again with Q.

And again. And again.

Why would I believe your apologies and promises again when you keep doing it and you're still minimizing what you did?


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Because I'm a smidge smarter now.
Going to bed,
Good bnight


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Okay, well your answer is what it is.

Unfortunately, it isn't enough for me. I simply don't believe you, I simply don't trust you. You did hear the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf when you were growing up, didn't you? I don't think you grasp the magnitude of the damage you've done to my trust in you. And you saying you're sorry for something has never resulted in a change in your behavior, so I can't see what value you telling me that you're sorry has now. I think you and I just have a different fundamental understanding of appropriate behavior in M, and discussing it doesn't seem to bring us any closer.

It was suggested that you're looking at about 2 years before you can expect any recovery, and that's if you don't keep backtracking. I suggest we put this to rest, stop talking about it, and see what the next two years brings. But if you aren't going to change any more than you have already, then I wouldn't expect much improvement in our relationship either.


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

ouch. Infidelity. 

I would have divorced my husband if he ever cheated twice, knowingly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

yours4ever said:


> ouch. Infidelity.
> 
> I would have divorced my husband if he ever cheated twice, knowingly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's talking about lying, not infidelity.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> Soulpotato, is CRex's opening statement above a good example of what you mean by validation? It's exactly what I think of when I think of validating, and exactly what I don't appreciate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you quote the specific statement here? Just want to be sure I address the right one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

OK, I can live with that. It took us 20 years to get here. If it takes 2 years do prove to you 'm honest, and 2 years for you to get your needed closure, I can deal with that.

Meanwhile, what's that mean in the day-to-day decision process re: our family and J? Will you please engage in the process of those decisions? We'll be equal partners with your input being heard. No one's voice more important that the other.

Please,
CRex


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> I will try to explain why it appears to you that I do things that you perceive are very destructive to the marriage.


 Soulpotato, this is the statement I was referring to. Like soccermom2three said, 'He's using the phrases, "appears to you" and "that you perceive", to put everything back on you, like you're crazy. I guess it's like blame shifting. He's not owning anything. ' Those sort of phrases are what I find patronizing. Sort of "Yes, I validate that you are crazy and these are the things you believe that evidence it."


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> Meanwhile, what's that mean in the day-to-day decision process re: our family and J? Will you please engage in the process of those decisions? We'll be equal partners with your input being heard. No one's voice more important that the other.


No, I'm not changing anything right now. I've worked hard to come up with a structure that addresses many of our issues, most of which addresses your complaints. I'm not throwing that out now and going back to the way things were simply based on your promise that things will be different. I don't believe you, remember?

In the past when you did something destructive to the R, I would withdraw to lick my wounds and try to heal, while you'd justify and minimize your behavior and accuse me of being a bad W because I wouldn't forgive and reengage and move on. Eventually I would buy in to your proclamations of remorse, your declarations of love, your promises to never do it again, and I would forgive and reengage. But then, once you were back to you getting everything you wanted, my needs were forgotten and change never happened.

I'm not making that mistake again.


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

So are C and Q other EA's or potential EA's? If so, it looks like your husband has no boundaries.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

No, not EA's, they're family that he was doing stuff with and lying about. He does have a boundary problem, has known it for years, has read the books, etc. It seems to me that since it isn't a problem for HIM, it doesn't get addressed.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Oh man, you guys remind me a lot of me and my H. CRexWife, I know exactly how it feels when your spouse talks and promises, but nothing changes. If you want to read our story, I'll link to it. The short is, I finally realized he wasn't going to do the work of being married. He's cares about himself, and that's it. So I'm doing as much work on myself as I can--reading up on boundaries, codependency, dropping resentments, you name it. Also working on my self-esteem and just begin a better person (loved 7 habits of highly effective people). If my H decides to step up and join me in the adult world, maybe we'll be able to fix things. Otherwise, it's only a matter of time until I file for divorce.

Sorry you're both here. Sometimes I wonder with me and H (and from what I can see of you two, maybe this would apply to you guys), if we're just incompatible. He'd be so much happier with a wife who didn't notice the dishonesty or didn't care, and didn't want a deep connection. Basically someone as self-absorbed as he is.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> So are C and Q other EA's or potential EA's? If so, it looks like your husband has no boundaries.


C and Q are family members, siblings, not EA's. 

Again, the issue is honesty, not infidelity. 
CRex


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> No, I'm not changing anything right now. I've worked hard to come up with a structure that addresses many of our issues, most of which addresses your complaints. I'm not throwing that out now and going back to the way things were simply based on your promise that things will be different. I don't believe you, remember?
> 
> In the past when you did something destructive to the R, I would withdraw to lick my wounds and try to heal, while you'd justify and minimize your behavior and accuse me of being a bad W because I wouldn't forgive and reengage and move on. Eventually I would buy in to your proclamations of remorse, your declarations of love, your promises to never do it again, and I would forgive and reengage. But then, once you were back to you getting everything you wanted, my needs were forgotten and change never happened.
> 
> I'm not making that mistake again.


OK. If I change at all, it sounds like your life can only get better.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

northernlights said:


> Oh man, you guys remind me a lot of me and my H. CRexWife, I know exactly how it feels when your spouse talks and promises, but nothing changes. If you want to read our story, I'll link to it.


Northern,
Sure, please link it.
I'm not defending him or selfishness, but, I'd be curious as to how you and he are both surviving.
Thanks,
CRex


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Here, it's long though: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...ve-him-any-more-but-still-want-make-work.html

CRex, you're already doing better than my H--at least you're acknowledging that there's a problem and trying to address it. My H continues to bury his head in the sand and pretend nothing is going on.


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

Why do people lie? Why did you lie often, crex?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

yours4ever said:


> Why do people lie? Why did you lie often, crex?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



As I analyze it to answer your question, in the past, I lied to get something I wanted or protect someone. Also, I can think of a time, 8-10 years ago, like a kid, I denied doing something I knew was wrong. I'm not defending it; just answering your question. 

Ashamedly,
CRex


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

CRexsWife said:


> Soulpotato, this is the statement I was referring to. Like soccermom2three said, 'He's using the phrases, "appears to you" and "that you perceive", to put everything back on you, like you're crazy. I guess it's like blame shifting. He's not owning anything. ' Those sort of phrases are what I find patronizing. Sort of "Yes, I validate that you are crazy and these are the things you believe that evidence it."


That is not validation, that's _in_validation and crazy-making. He's saying he's trying to be validating, but it's a wolf in sheep's clothing, LOL. I agree with what soccermom said there.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Can I get a definition of what this behavior is? On both sides?

(On Friday, in the middle of an argument we had...)
....
H: And you threw a fit because you don't like blue cars!
W: (pause) What are you talking about?
H: You don't like blue cars!
W: Yes, I don't like blue cars. But how did I throw a fit?
H: When I asked you if you liked a certain car, you said you didn't like blue, any blue, light blue dark blue, whatever.
W: Please stop focusing on the color aspect and tell me what I did that qualifies in your mind as throwing a fit.
H: (pause) Well, I guess you didn't, you just said you didn't like blue.
W: So for over two years, you've been harboring this anger and resentment, twisting my response to your question into "throwing a fit," bringing it up now in a totally unrelated discussion, simply because I had a different opinion than you???
H: No I wasn't harboring any anger over it.
W: So this is how you respond when you're not angry over something?
.....

(The following Sunday, after meeting family for breakfast, walking out to the car in the parking lot...)
H: W, what do you think of THAT car?
W: (pause) Sorry, but I'm going to refrain from sharing my opinion.
H: Yea, whatever! (Some derogatory comment, I don't remember exactly)
W: Do you understand why I'm not going to share?
H: Yea, I understand your reasoning completely, and I think it's crazy! You can't have a M without sharing your opinion, it's insane! Your response is retarded!


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

You memorise dialogue? That seems like a great way to hold on to resentment.

And CRex, if you're using words like insane and retarded you need to stop. No excuses. I can tell you how often words like that have been used in my husband and my 23 year relationship - zero.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Memorize dialogue? It was last weekend. Remembering a conversation from last weekend doesn't seem like that monumental of a task.

Are you suggesting then that there would have been nothing wrong with his approach or message as long as he didn't use those particular words?


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

> simply because I had a different opinion than you???


^^That nailed it, IMO

My H used to feel disrespected if me or a child disagreed with him. So we all walked around on eggshells trying to avoid setting him off. (LOOOOOOOONg story but I was brainwashed in a theology that men MUST be respected at all costs).

Dumb to walk around on egg shells, eh? I don't do that anymore. I stand up for myself and the children. I will no longer accept being arm-twisted, mocked, or scared into agreement with him. His knee jerk reaction of character assassinating people who disagree with him is *his *issue.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

I hate to say it but I'm used to the issue he has with my having a different opinion. The thing that caught me by surprise was the set-up two days later, and then his chewing me out because I didn't fall for it.

I feel like this has to be gas-lighting because I'm definitely questioning my sanity.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Well I don’t necessary know what “fit” you threw other than his frustration with the answer. From a guy perspective, he asked if you liked a car, you said you didn’t like blue. You didn’t answer the question, he wasnt thinking about the color at all with the question. 

Did you like the car, the style, the features, the make. Its not like it only comes in blue. Since you both have a strained relationship he immediately went to frustration because he didn’t get an answer and you became defensive days later when you informed him you would refrain from an opinion. So it annoyed him and he fell back into snide comments. 

Again this is apparently in the middle of a discussion so we don’t necessarily know the beginning or end of discussion. Assuming he is interested in buying a different car, he wants to know what you like so other than establishing that as long as it isn’t blue you like it. My stbx hates blue also and I have been on a car lot and asked the same question, due you like the car. Ive gotten the I hate blue answer. That wasn’t the question. 

Maybe on the Sunday he asked the question just to push your buttons, you could have given a simple yes or no answer instead you pushed his buttons. You both made a conscious effort to annoy each other for days over a simple question


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't understand his message. Was it that he doesn't want you to think differently about blue cars than he does? Because that seems unreasonable. Or was he saying that he thought the colour of a car was a trivial reason not to like it? Because that seems reasonable.

And yes I think memorising dialogue and holding onto it is unhelpful and shows you're looking for things to resent.


----------



## Sabariel (Jun 14, 2011)

It sounds like you have a need for connection and understanding that isn't being met inside your relationship, and you're feeling hurt and desperate because you don't know how to communicate with your wife.

When your wife argues and argues, maybe you feel flooded and overwhelmed because your need to be understood is not being met.

Is that about right?



2ntnuf said:


> I hesitate to suggest this. Look with an open mind. I'm not pointing fingers. It is used in conferences and in gang related dispute resolution. It is used to help marital partners who have a very tough time communicating and getting to, "the point". Look at it carefully before you think, "that's not for me", and disregard it. I hope it is helpful.
> 
> NVC Academy - Nonviolent Communication eLearning, Training, Resources


Another vote from me. I was going to suggest it myself, but it's already up.

Specifically, NVC can teach you how to listen and empathize with someone, even when that person IS NOT TALKING. 

NVC is all about connecting with what's alive in yourself and in other people, about expressing your feelings and your needs, instead of judging people and labelling them.

So even if your wife has stopped speaking to you, you can still try to empathize with what she's feeling and needing.

I prefer the audiobook because I can listen to it while I walk to work. The 4-CD set is good to get started, and the 9-CD training course is good to go more in-depth. Depending where you live, hey also have workshops you can attend.

I'd also like to say, it doesn't sound like your wife is communicating as effectively and compassionately as she could be, either. While you may be the first to reach out, I think she would also benefit by learning a different way to communicate. Arguing and trying to prove that you're right never brings two people closer together. That's one thing my MC always emphasized: What is your goal? Would you like to be closer and more connected with your partner, or do you want to win the arguments? These two outcomes are not compatible.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

read how she wrote it. He never asked or implied that he even liked blue. From a guy standpoint his question was simple did you like the car? yes or no. She could have just as easily said yes I do but I don't like the color. She could have said, no I just don't like the car. He shouldn't have gone to smart ass remarks and putting her on the defensive.

You both found a reason to turn innocent conversation into a fight and frustration. As I said earlier you both have a strained relationship on your best day. Quit looking for reasons to fight and debate each other which is what they both do very well.


----------



## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

it is understandable how the past will influence your present communication. when you fight too often, it becomes a habit... you EXPECT things to go wrong. and even before interacting, your body goes into fight or flight mode. my advice is to break this circle. go have fun dates and remember the saying if you dont have anything nice to say, best remain silent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Do you understand that he asked me about the car over two years ago? At the time, I didn't even know that my answer wasn't acceptable to him. This issue came up recently out of the blue, like it's been festering ever since.

There's a lot of hypothesizing about what he was pixxed about my answer that I don't like blue cars. It would be nice if he chimed in and actually explained it. I still don't know what his issue was, which is why I didn't know of any safe way to respond to the same question again, and so I simply declined to answer altogether.


----------



## CRex (Nov 16, 2013)

Yes, we have strained relationship. And, as the for blue car, in frustration, I let out a snide comment because she doesn't like blue cars. I feel overwhelmed by her intensity and dissatisfaction with my answers. I feel like I am a very patient person. But, when I answer and she's not satisfied, things heat up. I don't know how to help her understand something that I don't even recall sometimes. 
The blue car response was made in frustration, so I apologize, but apologies don't mean squat to her. I'm AM truly sorry for a stupid comment, made in my frustration, and somehow that 'rips her heart out'. I am so humbly sorry for that. How can that possibly be fixed?

Humbly,
CRex


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

You can stop using words like 'retarded' for a start


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Exactly how would we realize the first part happened two years ago when you leave that sort of detail out. You got answers based on what you wrote. So solve the now two year old mystery and answer the question did you like the car? This way crex can finally sleep at night knowing the answer. 

Crex, being frustrated with her questions and falling back to snide comments, really a stupid comment made about a car two years ago? Come on. Course we don’t even know what the discussion you two were even having when you both decided to just go to cheap shots and insults. 

Crexwife, you didn’t know a safe way to answer? Really, you jumped at the opportunity to wind him up. You have strong opinions and your aren’t afraid to voice them. Not a bad thing. Safe way to answer give me a break. You don’t know what the issue was? How about just asking him?

It doesn’t seem to matter though, you two want to fight, you go out of your way to do it. You have done it for so long you don’t know any other way.


----------



## NotEZ (Sep 23, 2012)

I haven't been cheated on so maybe I just don't understand, but its been 7 years. There has to be a reason that wife has stayed this long despite husbands failings and, from the looks of this thread, its purely to punish him. Every single post by wife is DRIPPING with disdain. 

There is no way to fix this without wifes help, and by the looks of it she has zero interest in doing so. Nothing he does will ever be good enough for her. She talks about lack of trust, he has posted time and time again that he gave her complete and utter transparency... passwords to everything. Thats not good enough for her because "she doesn't want to spend her life checking on him". Yeah, that could be... or it could be that she'll find him doing nothing and won't be able to torture him anymore. 

They are having these "conversations" all the time, but we can see just from her last 6 posts TODAY how they go. NOTHING is acceptable. Everything he says will be taken as not true, meaningless, and dissected with a fine tooth comb for anything that can be construed as uncaring. I understand that it takes time to rebuild trust. I also know it takes TWO to rebuild trust. If she has always been this hateful and degrading to any effort he has made, there is little wonder its never gotten better.

Now I only see whats posted here, I don't know anything else about the situtation. I do know however that she CLEARLY has zero respect for him and it probably has nothing to do with his EA 8 years ago. At this point in time, she has no interest in saving this marriage as she doesn't even pretend to take a word he says seriously. My suggestion would be for husband to file. She has already clearly stated that she is happy living separate lives till the kids are gone and has zero interest in trying anything to make the marriage better.

To the wife, if he hasn't done what you need from him yet GET A DIVORCE. I can tell you that you will NEVER get the response you are looking for by berating him over and over and over. You've tried that for 8 years and its only gotten worse. Get out or get in. Or your keeping both him and you, plus all the children involved, stuck in this revolving hell that, while he may have created, you are keeping flamed.

The ability to forgive lies with you, not him. Punishing him every single day won't change anything and, as I'm sure you already know (8 years), it won't make you feel any better about it. YOU need to make the decision to either put your heart and effort into trying to heal the marriage or to get out. There are no magical words from him that are going to take it away. Trying to force them out of him is a fools errand and just prolongs the suffering by all.


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

> W: *So for over two years*, you've been harboring this anger and resentment, twisting my response to your question into "throwing a fit," bringing it up now in a totally unrelated discussion, simply because I had a different opinion than you???


 Sorry you missed it, Honcho.

How about asking him?? I did, in the posted conversation, to which he denied there was a problem. I did again in post 197. In post 198, he again denied there ever was a problem with my response. Yet when he brought it up, two years after the event, he was clearly angry and accusatory. Or were you able to glean something from his response that I missed? Maybe you could explain his issue to me (as he presented it, not your own speculation.) Or perhaps you could ask him yourself, perhaps he'll respond differently to you.

No, I didn't know how to answer his recent question about yet another car. Are you suggesting it would have been safe if I had shared the fact that I didn't like the color, that I somehow could have expected a different response from him? Doesn't seem like it to me.

Notez, if the incident 7 years ago was the only issue, then it would be on me. The lying and deceit, the REAL problem for me, the things I discover without even looking, has continued since then. I feel like if someone wants to hide something, the easiest way to do that is in plain sight, so no, the passwords don't mean anything to me.


----------



## Womanofsteel (Dec 28, 2013)

CRexswife, I have been where you are. Disrespected, angry, lied to and made unimportant. I must admit he seems contrite, or very convinced he can manipulate all of us, not sure which one. Why are you still in the marriage? This must be exhausting.


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I have been away from this thread for a while. Sorry - if it falls down on the front page, I probably won't see it until something catches my eye again... usually a "like" notification. 

I'm up to page 8 so far. 

Personally, I think you both would benefit from backing off. 

CRex, I think you have a victim mentality that is hurting your relationship. I'm getting hints of passive-aggressive behavior that is deeply ingrained in the way you interact with the world. You want to be "conflict avoidant and engaged" and this is not genuinely possible. So you pull other people in and deflect YOUR responsibility onto them. I call foul on that. 

CRexWife, I still think you're blameful. I never saw your post asking me for specifics until just now. Instead of trying to isolate specific things (which would be unproductive), I'll simply say you've applied meaning that you carry forward. I'll explain that more in a minute. 

The two of you are in a power struggle. This is a normal part of relationships, but it's also the stage where most relationships end in divorce. Crexwife, your attitude of "I got lemonade. It ain't hot choco, but it ain't dehydration, either," is fabulous! It gives me hope for the two of you. CRex, you'd be smart not to count on her continuing to feel that way, though, because it CAN change, without notice. If you do not PROVE to her that you will "walk the walk," instead of just "talking the talk," she'll be gone and you'll be left wondering the same things you're wondering now.

This relationship cannot return to good until CRexWife stops blaming. As long as blame exists, healing cannot take place. I've said that you have attached meaning, CRW, and here's what I mean by that.... 

You ask for CR to do something. He agrees, and then doesn't do it. This happens more than once - maybe even regularly. Instead of addressing each individual incident, you start to see a pattern of behavior. You come to believe that the pattern is important and you determine "why" it's important. The "why" = your meaning. In your case, I believe that you see CR's behaviors and you conclude that this pattern MEANS that you're not very important to him. 

CR, I have to agree that your behaviors communicate that CRW is not very important to you when compared to getting what YOU want. 

So "blame" is a natural consequence of all that has happened. However, CRW sometimes takes the meanings a little too far. Such as the birthday thing. She says it "hurt more" because it was her birthday, but in fact, it would have hurt the same on any day, and by focusing on her birthday, she made the incident even bigger in her own mind, when I'm sure CR didn't have the first thought that he would betray her "on her birthday." 

I also think that both of you are WAAYYYY too caught up in the whole self-help hype. Let's face it, if you actually LIKED each other, then all your "isms" wouldn't be isms. It wouldn't matter if CR sat in a defensive posture, because it would bring out CRW's protective side. And if CR felt safe, he wouldn't feel a need to bring other people in to "manage" his wife's perceptions. You guys are so focused on the tree trunks that you cannot see the forest. 

In this regard, CRW and Mavash are correct that talking is hurting you instead of helping. I almost think you guys would benefit from the 180, but that's just another self-help thing that will get you all fusterclucked at this point. 

Instead of turning to other people... authors, forums, groups, etc. it's time to turn to each other. Commit to letting EACH OTHER tell you the "best" way to get along and then DO it. 

CR, that may mean you have to learn to enjoy one-on-one time with this woman that you say you love dearly. It may mean shutting out the rest of the world, and letting her be "right" so your relationship can be happy. It certainly means you can't do things that will leave her feeling betrayed in major ways. It may mean learning NOT to promise if you won't deliver. 

CRW, for your part, it may mean you have to change your attitude and your approach when you do communicate. If you want to get to hot chocolate, you're going to have to sweeten that lemonade and dilute it a heckuva lot. So when you see an example that CR said he'd do something and then doesn't, you might have to self-correct and get into a different frame of mind before talking about it. You know that he's defensive, so you'll have to disarm that, which isn't just about him uncrossing his arms. He has to BELIEVE that you'll be fair to him. 

This may not be easy with a guy who's looking for validation for every little thing he does "for you," especially when you don't believe it was for you! But keep your end goal in mind - you want a husband that keeps his word and accepts your influence. To get there, you might have to tell yourself, "He let me down, and I think it's because he doesn't value me much, but if I let him know I think this, it will damage our relationship. It would be better if I showed him that I value his cooperation." Then, when you talk, you'll have ways of showing what you DID appreciate that can soften the blow that makes him feel like a failure. One hint: If you want him to do something differently, don't ask! Instead, determine what YOU will do, and then INFORM him of what you would like to see in the future and what you will do if it doesn't happen. (Getting beyond codependency here.) Stop talking and just do. (I know you've been doing this already quite a bit, and he's unhappy with it, but he'll figure it out. He's no dummy. Things are escalating because he wants to get back a measure of control and dislikes that you have taken control in some ways.)


----------



## CRexsWife (Nov 17, 2013)

Kathy, thanks for your post. It's been quite a while since I checked in here. I was taking the advice offered by some to stop focusing on things, stop talking about it. And I suspect CRex hasn't been checking at all either -- it's not at all his "thing" anyway.

I've read your post several times regarding being "blameful." I'm trying to relate what you're saying to what goes on in my head. Like you saying I applied extra meaning to H dissing me on my birthday, as if he picked that day solely because it was my birthday. What I'm trying to figure out is what is truly applicable in what you're saying vs. what is simply bad communication on my part. For example, I never thought that my birthday was a target for H's disrespect. I only put value on it in that of all the days of the year that my wishes should be respected, my birthday is certainly one of them, I think.

What is the difference between what you're saying and simply "learning" the other person? If I make my H dinner and he picks out all the mushrooms, I can pretty much figure out that he doesn't like mushrooms without him saying a word. If I ask my H to do something with me and he replies, "No, that's a stupid activity, only social misfits do that," then I don't really see a reason to ask him again. If he regularly doesn't do something I've asked him to do, or does it but moans and complains about it the whole time, then I don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that I'm better off not wasting my time asking him. Can I simply state that our situation is that he doesn't honor my requests, and therefore I don't ask him? Is that "blaming" him or simply "knowing" him?

I know you didn't want to do specific examples. I think it would have been very helpful to me. In the same simplistic manner that one trains a dog, where it's important to relate the reward/correction at the time of the actual behavior or they don't know what you're talking about, I think it would help make things more clear to me. I just don't know how I'm being blameful. He doesn't like mushrooms, and he doesn't like my activities, and he doesn't do what I ask. These are just statements of fact. In response, I've adjusted my own behavior in all three areas. I'm not even sure what he could be "blamed" for.


----------

