# The rise of stay at home dads.



## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

The US are the leading country with the most SAHD.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Generally folks start off not posting YouTube videos as lead posts. What's your real story or goal posting?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

JTK-NCC1701 said:


> The US are the leading country with the most SAHD.


Which pretty much means the rise of infidelity.
I would only stay home, if I could work from home.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> Which pretty much means the rise of infidelity.


Interesting jump...


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Interesting jump...


Is it?
Look at how many posts there are on this site about working women getting it on with their work husband.
What will happen in marriages, where the men don't have a choice because they have no independent income of their own?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Interesting jump...


Not really. For all the feminist BS, I think SAhDs tend to make wives want to vomit all over their emasculated husbands and instead they take Pierre the poon plower for a test ride.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Not really. For all the feminist BS, I think SAhDs tend to make wives want to vomit all over their emasculated husband and instead take Pierre the poon plower for a test ride.


If I became the stay at home dad, I'm not sure if I could be any other way than deliberately live the life of Riley and not think about what the woman is doing with her time when she is out of sight.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

jonty30 said:


> Is it?
> Look at how many posts there are on this site about working women getting it on with their work husband.
> What will happen in marriages, where the men don't have a choice because they have no independent income of their own?


Statistically, you are correct... at least in terms of divorce (and presumably infidelity). Being a SAHD increases your chances of the marriage disolving.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

dadstartingover said:


> Statistically, you are correct... at least in terms of divorce (and presumably infidelity). Being a SAHD increases your chances of the marriage disolving.


Hypergamy is still at work. The wife will be seeking a man that is greater than she. 

We need the meteor SMOD.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> If I became the stay at home dad, I'm not sure if I could be any other way than deliberately live the life of Riley and not think about what the woman is doing with her time when she is out of sight.


Riding the carousel more then likely


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Riding the carousel more then likely


Yes and I would do everything I can to just live my life within the home and not think about anything.
It would be a dead way to live, but how else can a guy live like that?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> Yes and I would do everything I can to just live my life within the home and not think about anything.
> It would be a dead way to live, but how else can a guy live like that?


Well, if they are liberal it would make sense


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

jonty30 said:


> Yes and I would do everything I can to just live my life within the home and not think about anything.
> It would be a dead way to live, but how else can a guy live like that?


I would cry a lot and squeeze milk out of my man tities.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I would cry a lot and squeeze milk out of my man tities.


You could get yourself some silicon implants, so you'd never have a reason to leave the house.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Which pretty much means the rise of infidelity.
> I would only stay home, if I could work from home.


For once I am at least somewhat in agreement with you. I don't think humans can completely overcome biology. Human males are the provider and protector, females bear children and care for them. It can work when those roles are reversed, but the man is going to have to work extra hard at maintaining the family leadership role and the dominant male role that attracts a woman to a man.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> You could get yourself some silicon implants, so you'd never have a reason to leave the house.


Don't forget the manbun and skinny jeans


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

jonty30 said:


> You could get yourself some silicon implants, so you'd never have a reason to leave the house.


That's not a bad idea regardless!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> Is it?
> Look at how many posts there are on this site about working women getting it on with their work husband.
> What will happen in marriages, where the men don't have a choice because they have no independent income of their own?


Yes, I do see them... but do you think it automatically means that every stay at home dad has more chances to be cheated on?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, I do see them... but do you think it automatically means that every stay at home dad is cheated on?


I don't think every one is being cheated on, but their risk is much, much higher.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, I do see them... but do you think it automatically means that every stay at home dad is cheated on?


Nothing is absolute. 

It just simply increases the odds. 
Proximity + desire = an affair.
The more proximity + the availabilty = increased odds of an affair.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oddly enough I've also read that SAHDs are more likely to cheat too. Too much time on their hands.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> Nothing is absolute.
> 
> It just simply increases the odds.
> Proximity + desire = an affair.
> The more proximity + the availabilty = increased odds of an affair.


I would like to see the stats, please...


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> oddly enough I've also read that SAHDs are more likely to cheat too. Too much time on their hands.


With the milk lady.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> oddly enough I've also read that SAHDs are more likely to cheat too. Too much time on their hands.


You've "read"...


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I would like to see the stats, please...


You can remain in denial, if you want.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

BigDaddyNY said:


> oddly enough I've also read that SAHDs are more likely to cheat too. Too much time on their hands.


Yep. These men feel emasculated in their "subservient" role... convince themselves that the wife is just out living the awesome career life while he is left behind doing dishes. In their mind, what better way to prove his worth (to himself) than to go out and get some strange.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> You can remain in denial, if you want.


Happy to remain in denial, although the milk lady sounded appealing...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

How about the dumping of SAHD’s


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Testosterone levels have been dropping....


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

dadstartingover said:


> Yep. These men feel emasculated in their "subservient" role... convince themselves that the wife is just out living the awesome career life while he is left behind doing dishes. In their mind, what better way to prove his worth (to himself) than to go out and get some strange.


Problem is men aren't built or equipped to be SAHD. When women give birth, they become very forgetful because all that space they used before is now been crowded out for mothering skills. Then they become overrun with nurturing chemicals on top of that. The most stoic woman will become a weepy mess after birth. Plus they have boobs.

Men have none of those things. He has two things...keeping busy at making money or spreading his seed. If both of those is missing his worth will be invalidated.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Problem is men aren't built or equipped to be SAHD. When women give birth, they become very forgetful because all that space they used before is now been crowded out for mothering skills. Then they become overrun with nurturing chemicals on top of that. The most stoic woman will become a weepy mess after birth. Plus they have boobs.
> 
> Men have none of those things. He has two things...keeping busy at making money or spreading his seed. If both of those is missing his worth will be invalidated.


I have been a part-time SAHD... it's not at all difficult and I also worked at the same time (from home, obviously). True, it was a temporary measure, but I enjoyed it. And I have man-boobs.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Marc878 said:


> How about the dumping of SAHD’s





In Absentia said:


> I have been a part-time SAHD... it's not at all difficult and I also worked at the same time (from home, obviously). True, it was a temporary measure, but I enjoyed it. And I have *man-boobs.*


So, you have no reason to leave the house?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> For once I am at least somewhat in agreement with you. I don't think humans can completely overcome biology. Human males are the provider and protector, females bear children and care for them. It can work when those roles are reversed, but the man is going to have to work extra hard at maintaining the family leadership role and the dominant male role that attracts a woman to a man.


This ^^^^

As always the devil is in the details. 

For starters, WHY is the guy staying home? 
Is he more skilled and attuned to childcare and child development and education and has a larger plan in place? Additionally, does the wife have a better paying job with better benefits etc?

Or is he simply lazy and unemployed/unemployable and sees this as an excuse to play video games while the child runs around in filthy diapers?

Does the SAHD remain large and in charge following a larger plan and taking care of business? 

I try not to use red pill language but this is an issue of frame. 

If a guy is at home fixing up the home, RAISING AND DEVELOPING the kids instead of warehousing them and making sure they don’t die during the day and taking care of all matters of the home and family but having the wife bring in the money- That guy would probably have every mother and every single woman with Baby Rabies in the neighborhood lined up outside his door. 

It’s a matter of context and how proactive and initiative the guy is. Is the guy on his task and making and executing a larger plan? Or is he a slacker sitting home playing video games and letting the kids fend for themselves.

We have kind of a public image of the latter. But the dudes that are the former, the guys could probably be swim’n in women and the wife couldn’t afford to neglect or cheat on him.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Can


jonty30 said:


> Is it?
> Look at how many posts there are on this site about working women getting it on with their work husband.
> What will happen in marriages, where the men don't have a choice because they have no independent income of their own?


No more than men who cheat with a work colleague.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

W


Marc878 said:


> How about the dumping of SAHD’s


Why? 
I have no problems with dad's who do a really good job of caring for their children and running the home. Not many men could cope with that. 

I actually know really good marriages where this happens.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Can
> 
> No more than men who cheat with a work colleague.


This^^^

Anywhere that there are men and women that can interact , there is potential for shenanigans.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> W
> 
> Why?
> I have no problems with dad's who do a really good job of caring for their children and running the home. Not many men could cope with that.
> ...


From what I’ve seen a lot of them get dumped. Not uncommon at all. Of course SAHM’s get dumped too. Not sure what the actual %’s are.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> W
> 
> Why?
> I have no problems with dad's who do a really good job of caring for their children and running the home. Not many men could cope with that.
> ...


As I said above, details, context and frame. 

Is the guy a slacker trying to make sure the kid doesn’t die while the mom is out trying to keep the family fed?

Or is he large and in charge of a bigger plan and on top of raising the kids and home?

We have a public image of a SAHD as the slacker and perhaps the majority of them are. 

But I have see a few of the on-the-ball ones and they were envy of every chick in town.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Can
> 
> No more than men who cheat with a work colleague.


Statistically, women who become the primary breadwinner develop resentment and disrespect for their husbands and infidelity is higher with this group, especially with a stay home dad.

Hypergamy isn't the monster that bitter men's groups claim it is, but it is real.

There are individuals that are exceptions just like any rule.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Well, if they are liberal it would make sense


Now, now @Numb26, you know, our founding fathers, for being "men of the their times" they were not just considered ultra liberals but damned right traitors and rebels. The key to everything is moderation. Too conservative and too liberal can only be detrimental to all of us as a whole.

Now to the OP: Not this dude (me), I wouldn't ever consider SAHD for a second. Probably not even if I was to have a physical impediment. I would look for other ways to make a living. Steven Hawking was most of his life bound to a wheelchair, but he always was the breadwinner.


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

We humans are not made for an office. So if a father doesn't have a good job that makes him really happy and fulfills him, and the mother earns significantly more because she may have an academic degree, it is better if the father stays at home. He still has a lot of time for his hobbies. Before industrialization, when work and home were still one, many fathers took care of upbringing. A SADH can also have a lot of affairs, because he is almost exclusively on the road with mothers. In the event of a divorce, he would receive maintenance and the child.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

As usual, we are talking about hearsay... there is no proof. I did it. It was good. I would do it again. Not forever, but I don't regret it. It created a very special bond with my daughter and my son. I think most men should spend some time - full time - looking after their kids. Trust me, you learn a lot.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> So, you have no reason to leave the house?


Now, yes, at the time, no...  The SAHD phase didn't last long, but I got a lot out of it.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Testosterone levels have been dropping....


Seems as though they are totally gone in this generation


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Numb26 said:


> Seems as though they are totally gone in this generation


Geldings are happy until they aren’t.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> Yes and I would do everything I can to just live my life within the home and not think about anything.
> It would be a dead way to live, but how else can a guy live like that?


You just don’t.
He doesn’t allow himsel to be in that position at all, that’s how.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> Nothing is absolute.
> 
> It just simply increases the odds.
> Proximity + desire = an affair.
> The more proximity + the availabilty = increased odds of an affair.


Add to that her diminished level of respect and admiration for her husband in a SAHD role, and I suspect those odds go up exponentially.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

DudeInProgress said:


> Add to that her diminished level of respect and admiration for her husband in a SAHD role, and I suspect those odds go up exponentially.


I think it goes deeper then that. If a woman is ok with or even suggests that her man be a SAHD she already has her plans lined up. It is the culmination of the effect the educational system, social conditioning and Hollywood have had on the American male for decades.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> With the milk lady.


Does that include the nursing SAHMs in the neighborhood?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dadstartingover said:


> Statistically, you are correct... at least in terms of divorce (and presumably infidelity). Being a SAHD increases your chances of the marriage disolving.


 It also increases the chance of the husband cheating. When a wife earns more than the husband infidelity by the husband increases significantly.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> It also increases the chance of the husband cheating. When a wife earns more than the husband infidelity by the husband increases significantly.


Good all the way around.😉


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> From what I’ve seen a lot of them get dumped. Not uncommon at all. Of course SAHM’s get dumped too. Not sure what the actual %’s are.


Not all as I have seen.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> As usual, we are talking about hearsay... there is no proof. I did it. It was good. I would do it again. Not forever, but I don't regret it. It created a very special bond with my daughter and my son. I think most men should spend some time - full time - looking after their kids. Trust me, you learn a lot.


Absolutely, it's pretty challenging but men can learn a lot of new skills.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think that a lot of women understand how challenging it is caring for small children and running a home so not sure why they would loose respect.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Testosterone levels have been dropping....





oldshirt said:


> As I said above, details, context and frame.
> 
> Is the guy a slacker trying to make sure the kid doesn’t die while the mom is out trying to keep the family fed?
> 
> ...


Yes me too. I know some great SAHD's who do a fantastic job.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> I would like to see the stats, please...


_"Recent years have seen great interest in the relationship between relative earnings and marital outcomes. Using data from the 1997 National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, I examine the effect of relative earnings on infidelity, a marital outcome that has received little attention. Theories of social exchange predict that the greater one’s relative income, the more likely one will be to engage in infidelity. Yet, emerging literature raises questions about the utility of gender-neutral exchange approaches, particularly when men are economically dependent and women are breadwinners. I find that, for men, breadwinning increases infidelity. For women, breadwinning decreases infidelity. I argue that by remaining faithful, breadwinning women neutralize their gender deviance and keep potentially strained relationships intact. I also find that, for both men and women, economic dependency is associated with a higher likelihood of engaging in infidelity; but, the influence of dependency on men’s infidelity is greater than the influence of dependency on women’s infidelity. For economically dependent persons, infidelity may be an attempt to restore relationship equity; however, for men, dependence may be particularly threatening. Infidelity may allow economically dependent men to engage in compensatory behavior while simultaneously distancing themselves from breadwinning spouses." Her Support, His Support: Money, Masculinity, and Marital Infidelity - Christin L. Munsch, 2015 (sagepub.com) _​​​


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> _"Recent years have seen great interest in the relationship between relative earnings and marital outcomes. Using data from the 1997 National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, I examine the effect of relative earnings on infidelity, a marital outcome that has received little attention. Theories of social exchange predict that the greater one’s relative income, the more likely one will be to engage in infidelity. Yet, emerging literature raises questions about the utility of gender-neutral exchange approaches, particularly when men are economically dependent and women are breadwinners. I find that, for men, breadwinning increases infidelity. For women, breadwinning decreases infidelity. I argue that by remaining faithful, breadwinning women neutralize their gender deviance and keep potentially strained relationships intact. I also find that, for both men and women, economic dependency is associated with a higher likelihood of engaging in infidelity; but, the influence of dependency on men’s infidelity is greater than the influence of dependency on women’s infidelity. For economically dependent persons, infidelity may be an attempt to restore relationship equity; however, for men, dependence may be particularly threatening. Infidelity may allow economically dependent men to engage in compensatory behavior while simultaneously distancing themselves from breadwinning spouses." Her Support, His Support: Money, Masculinity, and Marital Infidelity - Christin L. Munsch, 2015 (sagepub.com) _​​​


I find quite differently than this person. I do believe statistics contradict this view at least in the area of marital satisfaction in women who are primary breadwinners.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think SAHD is a step in the right direction, only because most women I know did it all, worked full time plus did everything for the kids and house. It's time men learned what that's like so that maybe they can reach a balance where both are doing their share of it and it's not just the woman who is overwhelmed. 

I have had two neighbors who were SAHD. One of them was married to a doctor and his skills ended with being a server at a restaurant, as far as career, but he was very handy and stayed home with the kids and kept the grounds up and was handy fixing things or building fences or chicken coops, which he would have the kids help with. The kids were engaged helping out a lot with the chickens and his little boy followed him around with a toy mower when the dad or mom mowed the yard and then grew up enough to use the real thing. To me, they were great parents, a great family, really nice kids. A success. Their house inside was a childcare calamity, of course, but I've yet to meet any family with four young ones whose didn't look like a primary colored junkyard inside with toys everywhere and clutter. 

The other is a guy who doesn't like to work but does have some practical skills. He married a vet tech. He was taking odd jobs, but truth is he would rarely do more than just a little on a list of jobs before quitting (I know because I had a list for him to do and was paying him well). He'd do a thing or two and never complete because he really didn't like to work. He grew up caretaking his dad, who was disabled, so I know he probably didn't have much of a childhood and likely deserved a break. 

He got married shortly before his dad went in a care facility and inherited her kids and had more. She had the steady job, though I know it didn't pay much. He has some light job he was doing just on weekends last we talked and is mostly a SAHD. When I did have him do things, he did them well and thoroughly, but very short attention span. I bought stuff for him to tint my office window a year ago. He showed me the YouTube where he studied how to go about doing it and it was then I bought the supplies. He never came back and did it, so I finally found another handyman and put him to work. Maybe he's found his niche. I don't know. I know he could work full-time (just about anyone could right now in this work shortage) and chooses not to. But I'm sure he stays busy and he probably keeps their grounds and home in good order.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Speaking for myself here.

When I married my 2nd husband we both worked. We had my son (10) and his two children (10 & 12) with us 100%. Two years into our marriage, after 9/11, he was laid off from IBM because of problems caused by 9/11. We decided that due to circumstances he should be a SAHD for a while. As it turned out he did NOTHING to take care of the children. He also did nothing around the house or yard either. I mean nothing. He went to his home office each day upon waking. Came out only to eat. Then came out of it for bedtime. I also found that he was online cheating as well. So I worked long hours and did everything at home. After a few years of that I divorced him.

Knowing the stories of what actually happened in relationships is important. We get a fair number of women here whose husbands are SAHD's. The women complain that the guy is not really doing much at all with the kids or taking care of the home.


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

A SAHD also safes his fathers rights in case of a divorce.........


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Not really. For all the feminist BS, I think SAhDs tend to make wives want to vomit all over their emasculated husbands and instead they take Pierre the poon plower for a test ride.


I totally agree. Sure there are a few outliers that it are able to still respect and love their husband but the great majority quickly grow resentful; even if it was her idea at first. 

Unless the husband is above average in looks and has a confident swag, the wife is very vulnerable to an interloper who just has to play to her resentment while belittling her husband. I also notice that when betraying their husbands, they definitely go for a more stereotypical “alpha”type. Are they wanting to be saved from having to support a man?


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> As usual, we are talking about hearsay... there is no proof. I did it. It was good. I would do it again. Not forever, but I don't regret it. It created a very special bond with my daughter and my son. I think most men should spend some time - full time - looking after their kids. Trust me, you learn a lot.


I would like to believe you, but the guys who use the internet to brag about their masculinity don't agree w/ you, and we certainly don't dare to question them.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

I would think the hardest part of being a SAHD would be keeping your wife's dinner warm the nights she has work late with Keith from Accounting


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

SpinyNorman said:


> I would like to believe you, but the guys who use the internet to brag about their masculinity don't agree w/ you, and we certainly don't dare to question them.


It's their loss. If they want to brag about their masculinity, they are welcome.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

SpinyNorman said:


> I would like to believe you, but the guys who use the internet to brag about their masculinity don't agree w/ you, and we certainly don't dare to question them.





In Absentia said:


> It's their loss. If they want to brag about their masculinity, they are welcome.


When men do it for a short period of time, normally there's not enough time for a wife to become resentful. Most men who do it for years, they eventually get to experience what is like to be considered a beta man that is being replaced by an alpha.

It's better to brag about masculinity on an internet forum than to brag about being a beta male at home.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rob_1 said:


> When men do it for a short period of time, normally there's not enough time for a wife to become resentful. Most men who do it for years, they eventually get to experience what is like to be considered a beta man that is being replaced by an alpha.
> 
> It's better to brag about masculinity on an internet forum than to brag about being a beta male at home.


Some guys like being girls I guess


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> Nothing is absolute.
> 
> It just simply increases the odds.
> Proximity + desire = an affair.
> The more proximity + the availabilty = increased odds of an affair.



With that logic, I guess the best bet is to lock them in a room with a shock collar that is set to trip the minute she hits the end of the driveway...

People will do whatever they do...A good friend of mine found his employee in his own bed with his wife when he was out working...It had been going on for months....

All that said, it's unlikely that I would be comfortable in that arrangement(SAHD)..Its got nothing to do with jealousy or some type of control issue, but just that it wouldn't be the life for me...I'd wither to shyt in that type of scenario...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Speaking for myself here.
> 
> When I married my 2nd husband we both worked. We had my son (10) and his two children (10 & 12) with us 100%. Two years into our marriage, after 9/11, he was laid off from IBM because of problems caused by 9/11. We decided that due to circumstances he should be a SAHD for a while. As it turned out he did NOTHING to take care of the children. He also did nothing around the house or yard either. I mean nothing. He went to his home office each day upon waking. Came out only to eat. Then came out of it for bedtime. I also found that he was online cheating as well. So I worked long hours and did everything at home. After a few years of that I divorced him.
> 
> Knowing the stories of what actually happened in relationships is important. We get a fair number of women here whose husbands are SAHD's. The women complain that the guy is not really doing much at all with the kids or taking care of the home.


i this is the common image people get whenever the topic of SAHD comes up. 

Hence the assumption that the wife will lose respect, attraction and ultimately cheat and leave. 

What needs to be differentiated is whether these women are cheating/leaving because she’s the bread winner and he’s at home taking care of the kids and house....... or because he’s a slacker doing nuth’n.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Rob_1 said:


> When men do it for a short period of time, normally there's not enough time for a wife to become resentful. Most men who do it for years, they eventually get to experience what is like to be considered a beta man that is being replaced by an alpha.
> 
> It's better to brag about masculinity on an internet forum than to brag about being a beta male at home.


Do you ever wonder why swaggering tends to occur on a medium where no one can verify anything personal?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> What needs to be differentiated is whether these women are cheating/leaving because she’s the bread winner and he’s at home taking care of the kids and house....... or because he’s a slacker doing nuth’n.


The catch however is how many women are ever going to think that a man is going to take care of the kids and home GOOD ENOUGH?

I’m not sure I ever changed a diaper right or warmed the bottle to the proper temperature or or ever used the proper amount of impact and rhythm in burping any of the kids. 

It’s a one in a million man that would even want to be a SAHD to begin with.... and maybe one in ten or less would do it well. 

And it’s probably one in ten million women that would think her H was doing it right. 

In theory I believe that some families can have a breadwinning mom and SAHD and be fine. 

But it takes both a very special and unique man to do be able to do and do it well enough to keep his wife’s respect.

And it takes a special woman to be able to accept and appreciate what the guy is doing. 

It “CAN” be done. But in real world practice probably doesn’t work out that well.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> Speaking for myself here.
> 
> When I married my 2nd husband we both worked. We had my son (10) and his two children (10 & 12) with us 100%. Two years into our marriage, after 9/11, he was laid off from IBM because of problems caused by 9/11. We decided that due to circumstances he should be a SAHD for a while. As it turned out he did NOTHING to take care of the children. He also did nothing around the house or yard either. I mean nothing. He went to his home office each day upon waking. Came out only to eat. Then came out of it for bedtime. I also found that he was online cheating as well. So I worked long hours and did everything at home. After a few years of that I divorced him.
> 
> Knowing the stories of what actually happened in relationships is important. We get a fair number of women here whose husbands are SAHD's. The women complain that the guy is not really doing much at all with the kids or taking care of the home.


And of course a whole lot of men think women aren't doing anything at home when they're staying at home with the kids either and that's probably the attitude they go into staying at home with. 

But I'm happy to say I've seen it work. I just wanted to get to where men and women both understand their other spouse's burden. 

Of course since covid the way the world is going now is often there are two parents at home trying to work with kids in the house or at least in the house before and after school. 

That's how it is with my neighbors next door now. They both work from home. They actually hire a nanny to look after their kids even while they're home working. Their older daughter is so addicted to having someone entertain her that they dug that grave themselves. She's the one that keeps stalking and spying on me trying to get more attention as if she doesn't already have someone paid to give her attention plus her parents.


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

This ex firefighter doesn't look like a beta simp.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> _"Recent years have seen great interest in the relationship between relative earnings and marital outcomes. Using data from the 1997 National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, I examine the effect of relative earnings on infidelity, a marital outcome that has received little attention. Theories of social exchange predict that the greater one’s relative income, the more likely one will be to engage in infidelity. Yet, emerging literature raises questions about the utility of gender-neutral exchange approaches, particularly when men are economically dependent and women are breadwinners. I find that, for men, breadwinning increases infidelity. For women, breadwinning decreases infidelity. I argue that by remaining faithful, breadwinning women neutralize their gender deviance and keep potentially strained relationships intact. I also find that, for both men and women, economic dependency is associated with a higher likelihood of engaging in infidelity; but, the influence of dependency on men’s infidelity is greater than the influence of dependency on women’s infidelity. For economically dependent persons, infidelity may be an attempt to restore relationship equity; however, for men, dependence may be particularly threatening. Infidelity may allow economically dependent men to engage in compensatory behavior while simultaneously distancing themselves from breadwinning spouses." Her Support, His Support: Money, Masculinity, and Marital Infidelity - Christin L. Munsch, 2015 (sagepub.com) _​​​


I was correct about the dissatisfaction women have when they out earn their husbands but the increase in male infidelity in these situations actually surprised me!

It also seems men in these situations do less housework and childcare???,

Bizarre stuff. 

Women do initiate more divorces across the board and at an even higher rate when they make more.

These studies do show the wives are often embarrassed of the husband's perceived lower status and suffer from higher anxiety and stress.

If they are married to lazy cheaters, that seems a pretty good impetus.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> i this is the common image people get whenever the topic of SAHD comes up.
> 
> Hence the assumption that the wife will lose respect, attraction and ultimately cheat and leave.
> 
> What needs to be differentiated is whether these women are cheating/leaving because she’s the bread winner and he’s at home taking care of the kids and house....... or because he’s a slacker doing nuth’n.


He probably lost all respect for himself in the process. I'd go fk-ing nuts as a SAHD. I don't care what anyone says, it's not natural, if it was, the male female biology would be reversed.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Everybody does things a little differently and I think both parents should understand that and have already sorted that out before they agree that one or the other of them is going to stay at home. I wouldn't have any type in for a man who refused to take care of the chores properly. But my standard isn't all that high so he probably wouldn't have to be Susie Homemaker to please me. I mean you're not going to be able to take a guy who used to not doing anything go to work during the day and expect him to just become a great domestic, but some men are going up expecting to have to share those duties these days, so I just think it's worth considering.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Speaking for myself here.
> 
> When I married my 2nd husband we both worked. We had my son (10) and his two children (10 & 12) with us 100%. Two years into our marriage, after 9/11, he was laid off from IBM because of problems caused by 9/11. We decided that due to circumstances he should be a SAHD for a while. As it turned out he did NOTHING to take care of the children. He also did nothing around the house or yard either. I mean nothing. He went to his home office each day upon waking. Came out only to eat. Then came out of it for bedtime. I also found that he was online cheating as well. So I worked long hours and did everything at home. After a few years of that I divorced him.
> 
> Knowing the stories of what actually happened in relationships is important. We get a fair number of women here whose husbands are SAHD's. The women complain that the guy is not really doing much at all with the kids or taking care of the home.


I'm still trying to locate a bunch of data on this but I'm fighting with my new phone that knows nothing and I'm having to train it!😁

I did find exactly your situation playing out apparently everywhere.

I do remember studies that also show wives becoming dissatisfied and antagonistic in pretty large numbers simply due to making more than their husbands but your situation aligns up with quite a bit of data actually.

There is also a plague of professional, single women that are naturally hypergamous (the good kind of hypergamy) and they can't find a man they perceive as equal to themselves or higher in status so are staying single.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I'm still trying to locate a bunch of data on this but I'm fighting with my new phone that knows nothing and I'm having to train it!😁
> 
> I did find exactly your situation playing out apparently everywhere.
> 
> ...


Until they hit their late 30's and their biological clock starts hammering away at their ovaries!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Until they hit their late 30's and their biological clock starts hammering away at their ovaries!


Your sentiment is absolutely accurate but a different topic.😉


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

SpinyNorman said:


> Do you ever wonder why swaggering tends to occur on a medium where no one can verify anything personal?


Swaggering? Is explaining that most women lose respect for a man that she’s supporting being boastful? No one said it an absolute but for the majority of women , they do not want to be the sole or even Main breadwinner.

I think it can work for a few months but as a permanent way, it usually doesn’t work. Not only for the woman but for the man. The guy is going to feel emasculated and not to mention that they usually struggle with maintaining a household. So are the SAHDs being betrayed and left because the wife resents having to financially support the family or because her husband’s not doing a good job of being a house husband? I think it’s mostly the former but Elle’s description of her ex makes a strong case for the ladder.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem being a SAHD but it would take a remarkable woman to be my mate because I would still be the head of the household and she would quit or cut back if I felt her job was getting in the way of her health or the health of our family.

I'm actually a better cook than Mrs. Conan and I absolutely love taking care of kids.

I tend to pamper her anyway and she would only be doing some dishes in the house occasionally, never cleaning up after anyone else and only doing a couple items on her personal laundry list as I would be taking care of everything else.

When I was sidelined for about 6 months and she took a full time position, she had dinner waiting for her, a hot bath with bath salts and a massage/footrub from her muscle-bound masseuse every day.😉


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Personally, I wouldn't have a problem being a SAHD but it would take a remarkable woman to be my mate because I would still be the head of the household and she would quit or cut back if I felt her job was getting in the way of her health or the health of our family.
> 
> I'm actually a better cook than Mrs. Conan and I absolutely love taking care of kids.
> 
> ...


All points for you!!!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> All points for you!!!


Before too many get the wrong idea, our dynamic did not change in the least. She was still submissive to me and, aside from me taking care of the home while she brought home the bacon, nothing changed.

She was still very feminine and I masculine.

I will say I think there would be a problem if, barring some form of medical issue/restriction, the husband won't work to support his family if needed.

He should be capable and ready if needed and I fully believe has more of a burden to provide than his wife.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

JTK-NCC1701 said:


> This ex firefighter doesn't look like a beta simp.


Love it. 👍

I would love to see all dads stay at home with their children and run the house for a few months at least. Its very sad that many men denegrate other men who do this, I think its great.
I also know some very manly men who do this, in very happy marriages with no cheating. Not everyone cheats in this situation believe it or not. Not everone looses respect for their spouse believe it or not. I find it odd that this provokes such strong reactions from other men, what does that say I wonder?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rob_1 said:


> It's better to brag about masculinity on an internet forum than to brag about being a beta male at home.


That's your opinion, of course. In my world, SAHDs are appreciated. If a woman despises her man for being a SAHD, then she is not intelligent or mature enough to be with that man. This is not matter of being alpha or beta, it takes balance and strength in a couple. It's also matter of doing the best for the children in a given time of a relationship. There is a lot of testosterone permeating in this thread. All the usual alphas are coming out of their hole.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I think SAHD's can be great just like SAHM's but the only experiences I've seen are not good in any way. SAHM's usually work 80 hours or more a week. My niece is married to a SAHD who does nothing but play video games, lock the kids out of his room and leave her with all the household chores. I have no idea why she hasn't left him a long time ago. I think it's lack of self esteem.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Love it. 👍
> 
> I would love to see all dads stay at home with their children and run the house for a few months at least. Its very sad that many men denegrate other men who do this, I think its great.
> I also know some very manly men who do this, in very happy marriages with no cheating. Not everyone cheats in this situation believe it or not. Not everone looses respect for their spouse believe it or not. I find it odd that this provokes such strong reactions from other men, what does that say I wonder?


I totally agree with you. I don't understand all this posturing by some posters here.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> I think SAHD's can be great just like SAHM's but the only experiences I've seen are not good in any way. SAHM's usually work 80 hours or more a week. My niece is married to a SAHD who does nothing but play video games, lock the kids out of his room and leave her with all the household chores. I have no idea why she hasn't left him a long time ago. I think it's lack of self esteem.


Why are basing your opinion on a single case you know? I just don't understand this generalising and It's toxic, IMO. It's not helpful.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> Why are basing your opinion on a single case you know? I just don't understand this generalising and It's toxic, IMO. It's not helpful.


That's only one example. I know 3 SAHD's and none perform well. The one that is closest to me is the saddest. I said very clearly IN MY EXPERIENCE. What else would follow that then my own experiences. I never said all SAHD's were like that. But hey I'm sure they are all like the fireman.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Why are basing your opinion on a single case you know? I just don't understand this generalising and It's toxic, IMO. It's not helpful.


It's actually, statistically, widespread and confirmed by data.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> That's your opinion, of course. In my world, SAHDs are appreciated. If a woman despises her man for being a SAHD, then she is not intelligent or mature enough to be with that man. This is not matter of being alpha or beta, it takes balance and strength in a couple. It's also matter of doing the best for the children in a given time of a relationship. There is a lot of testosterone permeating in this thread. All the usual alphas are coming out of their hole.


If there is a good strong relationship they will be fine whoever looks after the littlies and who doesn't. I think its great for children to have some period of time with their dads.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> That's only one example. I know 3 SAHD's and none perform well. The one that is closest to me is the saddest. I said very clearly IN MY EXPERIENCE. What else would follow that then my own experiences. I never said all SAHD's were like that. But hey I'm sure they are all like the fireman.


Apparently, most are like what you've seen.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

For what it is worth. When my daughter was young I wasn't a very good SAHM. I did better with SAHW 18 years later both for relatively short stints.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I totally agree with you. I don't understand all this posturing by some posters here.


Dude: get it through your head: A few months or longer will not create friction for a man staying at home taking care of things, and actually it could be beneficial for a dude to truly understand what it takes to run a household. Make it permanently, and you will understand what most men that have had enough experience in life would tell you: IT DOESN'T WORK FOR MOST MEN IN THE LONG RUN.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> It's actually, statistically, widespread and confirmed by data.


Like talking to a wall, isn't it?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rob_1 said:


> Dude: get it through your head: A few months or longer will not create friction for a man staying at home taking care of things, and actually it could be beneficial for a dude to truly understand what it takes to run a household. Make it permanently, and you will understand what most men that have had enough experience in life would tell you: IT DOESN'T WORK FOR MOST MEN IN THE LONG RUN.


"Men" being the important point there. LMAO


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> All the usual alphas are coming out of their hole.


No dude: it really is not a matter of being alpha or beta it really is a matter of human nature. Female mentality vs male mentality. It is extremely hard for most humans to go against their biological make up. We can adapt, but we are not fully there yet for the sexes to act interchangeably.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> That's only one example. I know 3 SAHD's and none perform well. The one that is closest to me is the saddest. I said very clearly IN MY EXPERIENCE. What else would follow that then my own experiences. I never said all SAHD's were like that. But hey I'm sure they are all like the fireman.


I don't know... I still think that even 3 cases do not represent the majority. Your experience is important, but I don't like generalisations. This thread has turned into a massive and unhelpful bashing of SAHDs from red pill men and I'm out.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rob_1 said:


> Dude: get it through your head: A few months or longer will not create friction for a man staying at home taking care of things, and actually it could be beneficial for a dude to truly understand what it takes to run a household. Make it permanently, and you will understand what most men that have had enough experience in life would tell you: IT DOESN'T WORK FOR MOST MEN IN THE LONG RUN.


that's your opinion from your personal experience? Great. I'm out.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rob_1 said:


> No dude: it really is not a matter of being alpha or beta it really is a matter of human nature. Female mentality vs male mentality. It is extremely hard for most humans to go against their biological make up. We can adapt, but we are not fully there yet for the sexes to act interchangeably.


ok, thank you for disquisition, professor. Bye. 😀


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> Like talking to a wall, isn't it?


What's funny is this particular situation isn't looking very flattering for men but data is data so I research.

It is what it is. Lol!

It's just as funny when I talk about very academic data about men and infrastructure. It's just reality.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> I was correct about the dissatisfaction women have when they out earn their husbands but the increase in male infidelity in these situations actually surprised me!
> 
> It also seems men in these situations do less housework and childcare???,
> 
> ...


It is true that women initiate the divorce process legally. But that does not mean that all the women who initiate divorce are the ones breaking up the marriage. I've filed for divorce in my marriages, why? One husband was violent and cheated. Next husband … I mentioned him earlier in this thread. Almost every women I know who filed divorce filed because her husband was violent and/or cheating.

That said, my bet is that generally women and men each cause the failure of the marriage at about equal rates.

My bet is that men don't file as often because they think they are going to get the short end of the stick in a divorce so they are not going to file. Women file because they think filing will help them with things like child support and sometimes spousal support.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> ok, thank you for disquisition, professor. Bye. 😀


You're quite welcome. Live and learn.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> What's funny is this particular situation isn't looking very flattering for men but data is data so I research.
> 
> It is what it is. Lol!
> 
> It's just as funny when I talk about very academic data about men and infrastructure. It's just reality.


New law of the land is Feelings over Facts, remember?


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)




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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)




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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

Equality. Now Ex SAHD can sue their ex wife for alimony.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

JTK-NCC1701 said:


>


Equality is a cruel master.

It's going to have to become more wide spread for anything to change. Probably a good 50yrs away at best for actual changes in the laws.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I was correct about the dissatisfaction women have when they out earn their husbands but the increase in male infidelity in these situations actually surprised me!


That is not what I would have assumed either. 

Could there be a subset of men that basically want to be supported and get with women that will support them but the men aren’t all that attracted to them sexually just like women marrying men that they really aren’t all that attracted to?

Do some people of either gender get with partners that will support them but for whom they have limited desire and are basically agreeing to provide childcare in exchange for food and housing ....,,,. But their sexual interests are elsewhere?


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Before too many get the wrong idea, our dynamic did not change in the least. She was still submissive to me and, aside from me taking care of the home while she brought home the bacon, nothing changed.
> 
> She was still very feminine and I masculine.
> 
> ...


Sooner or later she’ll wake up to your misogynistic tyranny and break free from your patriarchal reign of terror. You Stone Age Neanderthal.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

I think SAHD can work ... for a while. But if it goes on too long, problems are going to start surfacing.


oldshirt said:


> That is not what I would have assumed either.
> 
> Could there be a subset of men that basically want to be supported and get with women that will support them but the men aren’t all that attracted to them sexually just like women marrying men that they really aren’t all that attracted to?
> 
> Do some people of either gender get with partners that will support them but for whom they have limited desire and are basically agreeing to provide childcare in exchange for food and housing ....,,,. But their sexual interests are elsewhere?


I think it's more likely that the sahd/breadwinner mom dynamic has caused other issues that increase mom's resentment. Sex dies. The dog can be the loyalest in the world but if he ain't getting fed he'll start sniffing around the neighbor's porch.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

JTK-NCC1701 said:


> Equality. Now Ex SAHD can sue their ex wife for alimony.


Only if they're in an alimony state, but that is only fair in certain situations.


DownButNotOut said:


> I think SAHD can work ... for a while. But if it goes on too long, problems are going to start surfacing.
> 
> I think it's more likely that the sahd/breadwinner mom dynamic has caused other issues that increase mom's resentment. Sex dies. The dog can be the loyalest in the world but if he ain't getting fed he'll start sniffing around the neighbor's porch.


There are ALWAYS going to be problems, no matter what the situation, always. I think it can only improve the overall attitude about division of chores and childrearing if men see what it's really like to be stuck at home with little ones doing everything. It's not 9-5. It's 24/7. Women ALREADY know what working full-time is like.


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> That is not what I would have assumed either.
> 
> Could there be a subset of men that basically want to be supported and get with women that will support them but the men aren’t all that attracted to them sexually just like women marrying men that they really aren’t all that attracted to?
> 
> Do some people of either gender get with partners that will support them but for whom they have limited desire and are basically agreeing to provide childcare in exchange for food and housing ....,,,. But their sexual interests are elsewhere?


YES.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> That is not what I would have assumed either.
> 
> Could there be a subset of men that basically want to be supported and get with women that will support them but the men aren’t all that attracted to them sexually just like women marrying men that they really aren’t all that attracted to?
> 
> Do some people of either gender get with partners that will support them but for whom they have limited desire and are basically agreeing to provide childcare in exchange for food and housing ....,,,. But their sexual interests are elsewhere?


Yes, but the men won't be able to fake it and more than likely won't be pressured about it. 

For the record, I've never known any such women, so I think I ran with a better crowd than you did, OS. Some of the ones I knew made some sorry choices marrying but it wasn't because they weren't attracted to them at the time. Again, back to men choosing golddiggers, which they do intentionally thinking they'll get someone better looking if they buy them.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> It is true that women initiate the divorce process legally. But that does not mean that all the women who initiate divorce are the ones breaking up the marriage. I've filed for divorce in my marriages, why? One husband was violent and cheated. Next husband … I mentioned him earlier in this thread. Almost every women I know who filed divorce filed because her husband was violent and/or cheating.
> 
> That said, my bet is that generally women and men each cause the failure of the marriage at about equal rates.
> 
> My bet is that men don't file as often because they think they are going to get the short end of the stick in a divorce so they are not going to file. Women file because they think filing will help them with things like child support and sometimes spousal support.


To be fair, I've witnessed a lot of women making false claims and embellishing against their husbands when they divorced.

One of my three friends, who divorced last year due to their wives all cheating, had his ex lie through her teeth about just about everything. We were prepared with too many facts so her allegations went nowhere but I've seen it go against the man way more often when the stbxw lies about him come divorce time.

Real statistics probably affirm your thoughts on it being a more equal amount of men and women behaving badly and causing divorce.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yes, but the men won't be able to fake it and more than likely won't be pressured about it.
> 
> For the record, I've never known any such women, so I think I ran with a better crowd than you did, OS. Some of the ones I knew made some sorry choices marrying but it wasn't because they weren't attracted to them at the time. Again, back to men choosing golddiggers, which they do intentionally thinking they'll get someone better looking if they buy them.


I’m not sure why you are bringing me into this. 

My wife is an educated, full time professional.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure why you are bringing me into this.
> 
> My wife is an educated, full time professional.


You're always talking about it, that's why. Some men choose golddiggers. They're easy enough to spot because they always act like divas and want things.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You're always talking about it, that's why. Some men choose golddiggers. They're easy enough to spot because they always act like divas and want things.


To be honest, that could apply to most. Not just golddiggers.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You're always talking about it, that's why. Some men choose golddiggers. They're easy enough to spot because they always act like divas and want things.





Numb26 said:


> To be honest, that could apply to most. Not just golddiggers.


I don’t recall mentioning gold diggers. 

But for the sake of argument, this then begs the question of what is a gold digger vs a woman who wants to be a full time SAHM? (and presumably wants a roof over her head and food in her belly in the process)

What makes one woman’s wishes honorable and the other worthy of scorn and something that must be spotted? 

And if a guy were to want to be a SAHD, why is he less of a man and one that will inevitably be cheated on and left?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> To be fair, I've witnessed a lot of women making false claims and embellishing against their husbands when they divorced.
> 
> One of my three friends, who divorced last year due to their wives all cheating, had his ex lie through her teeth about just about everything. We were prepared with too many facts so her allegations went nowhere but I've seen it go against the man way more often when the stbxw lies about him come divorce time.
> 
> Real statistics probably affirm your thoughts on it being a more equal amount of men and women behaving badly and causing divorce.


I've seen some men lie up a storm too during divorce, and hid money/assets that the wife worked equally for, etc. There are just some bad people in both sexes.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Statistically, women who become the primary breadwinner develop resentment and disrespect for their husbands and infidelity is higher with this group, especially with a stay home dad.
> 
> Hypergamy isn't the monster that bitter men's groups claim it is, but it is real.
> 
> There are individuals that are exceptions just like any rule.


I just wanted to alter my statement in regards to female infidelity. I'm standing by the rest of it but I'm not able to get any statistics on women cheating more as higher earners so I'm retracting that part.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I don’t recall mentioning gold diggers.
> 
> But for the sake of argument, this then begs the question of what is a gold digger vs a woman who wants to be a full time SAHM? (and presumably wants a roof over her head and food in her belly in the process)
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I mean about you always bringing that up. I don't even know any women who just want to use a man and stay at home. I know one whose husband told her he didn't want her to work because he didn't want to share chores and kid stuff. You brought it up about women who marry men just to get that and then cut them off sex or whatever. That would be a gold digger and that is a choice men make.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> I just wanted to alter my statement in regards to female infidelity. I'm standing by the rest of it but I'm not able to get any statistics on women cheating more as higher earners so I'm retracting that part.


Everything I've read about infidelity in relationship where the woman is the primary bread winner says that the men cheat at a much higher rate then the women.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I've seen some men lie up a storm too during divorce, and hid money/assets that the wife worked equally for, etc. There are just some bad people in both sexes.


And there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

I'm aware of some men lying during divorce but I hang with a better crowd as I assume you do as well.

Women are believed far more with far less evidence generally. 

This is especially true with allegations of abuse and sexual misconduct.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Everything I've read about infidelity in relationship where the woman is the primary bread winner says that the men cheat at a much higher rate then the women.


So far, I'm concurring. Men, generally, appear to be misbehaving far more when it comes to faithfulness in these situations.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

ConanHub said:


> I just wanted to alter my statement in regards to female infidelity. I'm standing by the rest of it but I'm not able to get any statistics on women cheating more as higher earners so I'm retracting that part.


More infidelity, maybe not. More divorce, absolutely.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownButNotOut said:


> More infidelity, maybe not. More divorce, absolutely.


Without question. I can't find it because I'm still training my new phone but I believe there is data to support women simply losing respect for their husbands without the husbands misbehaving. I might be remembering husband's that earn less but aren't sahd's.

SAHD's aren't looking too good, exceptions noted.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

My husband worked from home after one of our children was born and then also temporarily during the pandemic. I was ready to send him back to the office. Even with a dedicated home office, being in the house all of the time had him acting like a tiger stalking around in its cage. He is not built for being around the kids that much.

I've only known of a few couples where the dad stayed home, and it was temporary solution to an employment issue (max of a couple of years for one). I think however a couple works that out is their business. There are always exceptions.

However, long term, the man not earning anything and the woman carrying all of the weight (or most of it) financially I think does tend to go against biological tendencies and can result in resentment. Even if a man is disabled, he's usually pulling in some disability benefits. Most men are pained by the fact that their woman has to support them and their children. Maybe similar to if a woman had to watch her husband do ALL of the childrearing? I don't know.

Whoever stays home with kids is at a disadvantage if a spouse dies or there is divorce. _Especially_ when infidelity is involved. It isn't fair. Nothing wrong with being a SAHM (or parent, maybe?), but I recommend every able bodied person having a marketable skill, and it's what I've taught (and am teaching) each of my children, of both genders.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> You just don’t.
> He doesn’t allow himsel to be in that position at all, that’s how.


If you're the dependent spouse, good luck on the dominance thing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JTK-NCC1701 said:


>


Any woman who is the primary breadwinner and is shocked that they have to pay alimony is not very smart.

Another thing I've heard is that in same sex marriages, the spouse who earns more is generally very upset about have to pay alimony. 

My take is that this is changing over time in the way it should. What I mean is that in many states, it's getting more difficult to get alimony. Even in California they now have have a provision that can be added to a divorce settlement that states that if the spouse receiving alimony does not do what they need to, to become able to support themselves the paying spouse can get the alimony stopped. IMHO, in most cases, alimony should be rehabilitative, meaning to help the spouse who has not worked for a while to get the training they need and to get a job.

Alimony as an automatic payment to women in a divorce is left over from a time when women could not support themselves because they could never be hired into a job that paid enough for that. It's a different now as it should be.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> With that logic, I guess the best bet is to lock them in a room with a shock collar that is set to trip the minute she hits the end of the driveway...
> 
> People will do whatever they do...A good friend of mine found his employee in his own bed with his wife when he was out working...It had been going on for months....
> 
> All that said, it's unlikely that I would be comfortable in that arrangement(SAHD)..Its got nothing to do with jealousy or some type of control issue, but just that it wouldn't be the life for me...I'd wither to shyt in that type of scenario...


I'm not saying that. It's just what is going to happen in increased numbers, as women are socially encouraged, against their biology, to be the dominant spouse. When men are not taking care of things, women internally assume they have to find somebody to take care of them. That's the way hypergamy works and hypergamy, developed in our species when we were first created, is still at work.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Only if they're in an alimony state, but that is only fair in certain situations.
> 
> There are ALWAYS going to be problems, no matter what the situation, always. I think it can only improve the overall attitude about division of chores and childrearing if men see what it's really like to be stuck at home with little ones doing everything. It's not 9-5. It's 24/7. Women ALREADY know what working full-time is like.


I mean certain types of problems. The kinds of problems that in other threads here the usual suspects begin with the 'divorce the loser/man-child/waste of space' talk.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> It also increases the chance of the husband cheating. When a wife earns more than the husband infidelity by the husband increases significantly.





EleGirl said:


> _" I find that, for men, breadwinning increases infidelity. For women, breadwinning decreases infidelity. " Her Support, His Support: Money, Masculinity, and Marital Infidelity - Christin L. Munsch, 2015 (sagepub.com) _


These seem to contradict each other.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> Does that include the nursing SAHMs in the neighborhood?


I think it includes everybody.

Biological tendencies are tendencies. Not everybody will follow through on their biological instincts, but the tendency is there.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

For all of the statistics asserted here, I haven't seen many links. One of the principles of statistics on behavior is, the populations being compared need to be similar, except for the behavior being studied. Given most couples have a male breadwinner, my first question is does the SAHD population have a lot of couples who wanted this but their plans went in the toilet? If so, comparing their marriages to couples whose plans are on track isn't meaningful. If you compare populations who chose their situations, that might be meaningful.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Can
> 
> No more than men who cheat with a work colleague.


Except that I think the tendency is stronger in the women because of their biology of seeking the strongest mate.
I understand that women have choice, but they are having to constantly making a choice against their biology. I don't know how many women can keep a lifelong respect for their mate and stay married to them when they are having to constantly guard against their inborn natures when their mate is the weaker spouse.

To be clear, that doesn't mean that I don't think that men should not know how to keep house. Men should be as competent as women on how to do domestic chores. It's just that dependent men invariably turns women off.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> If you're the dependent spouse, good luck on the dominance thing.


Right, so as a man, never be the dependent spouse. Doesn’t seem to work out well


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

SpinyNorman said:


> For all of the statistics asserted here, I haven't seen many links. One of the principles of statistics on behavior is, the populations being compared need to be similar, except for the behavior being studied. Given most couples have a male breadwinner, my first question is does the SAHD population have a lot of couples who wanted this but their plans went in the toilet? If so, comparing their marriages to couples whose plans are on track isn't meaningful. If you compare populations who chose their situations, that might be meaningful.


Women Who Make More Than Their Husbands Should Watch Out | Kiplinger

https://www.chicagobooth.edu/media-...ases/when-women-earn-more-than-their-husbands

Why promoted women are more likely to divorce

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1082.9456&rep=rep1&type=pdf

The Female Breadwinner: Phenomenological Experience and Gendered Identity in Work/Family Spaces - Sex Roles


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> Right, so as a man, never be the dependent spouse. Doesn’t seem to work out well


If societal conditions were such that I had to be the SAHD, I would work very hard to maintain my independence within the home, like taking courses to increase my marketable skills set.
If she's the supporting spouse, she may opt out of the marriage at any time if she finds another man that she prefers and you're left with nothing.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> If societal conditions were such that I had to be the SAHD, I would work very hard to maintain my independence within the home, like taking courses to increase my marketable skills set.
> If she's the supporting spouse, she may opt out of the marriage at any time if she finds another man that she prefers and you're left with nothing.


Other than a short term, temporary situation, I see no societal conditions that would necessitate a man being a SAHD. 
It’s a choice, and there are always options and alternatives. Unless that’s your thing.

I think it parallels the whole swinger/open marriage thing. Sure, it can work effectively four a small minority of couples, but in the vast majority of marriages, these scenarios are likely to end poorly.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> Other than a short term, temporary situation, I see no societal conditions that would necessitate a man being a SAHD.
> It’s a choice, and there are always options and alternatives. Unless that’s your thing.
> 
> I think it parallels the whole swinger/open marriage thing. Sure, it can work effectively four a small minority of couples, but in the vast majority of marriages, these scenarios are likely to end poorly.


Ultimately it is a choice, if you're comfortable in a low wage job. However, liberals in society are deliberately creating the conditions of pushing men down economically to lift women up. At some point, it becomes completely acceptable to deny a man a job as this mindset entrenches as a value in society.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

There's a danger in reducing marriage to a simple financial contract, though. It's necessary in a divorce (to split assets), but a good marriage is a partnership, where success for one is success for both. I think different genders have different tendencies (and no amount of reprogramming will erase biology), but it doesn't have to be a competition, either.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> Ultimately it is a choice, if you're comfortable in a low wage job. However, liberals in society are deliberately creating the conditions of pushing men down economically to lift women up. At some point, it becomes completely acceptable to deny a man a job as this mindset entrenches as a value in society.


Sort of, directionally, kind of, maybe, I get what you’re saying culturally…but still no.

We dictate our own outcomes and our own results and our own opportunities. 

Sure, there may be some tactical challenges or disadvantages depending on your chosen industry or field, but strategically and over the long run we all have plenty of options.

Most competent (and even many incompetent) men are not going to be relegated to low wage jobs anytime soon.

So if a man is relegated to a low wage job and has no path to improve his situation, he is either lacking in skills or lacking capability. 
If you’re lacking skills, go improve your skills, no excuses in the long term.
If you’re lacking capability/competence, then I’m sorry, life is going to be difficult for you.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> Sort of, directionally, kind of, maybe, I get what you’re saying culturally…but still no.
> 
> We dictate our own outcomes and our own results and our own opportunities.
> 
> ...


There is only so much any person can do, if the societal headwinds have become totally against you.
If society becomes actively discriminatory against you, you're hooped.
Look at how many competent blacks had to settle for lesser jobs than they are capable of because the societal headwinds at the time were totally against them. 

It's like having to push forward while dragging around 30lbs around your neck.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Twodecades said:


> There's a danger in reducing marriage to a simple financial contract, though. It's necessary in a divorce (to split assets), but a good marriage is a partnership, where success for one is success for both. I think different genders have different tendencies (and no amount of reprogramming will erase biology), but it doesn't have to be a competition, either.


It’s not actually about finances at all, that’s why in some cases SAHD scenarios can work. 

It’s about competence, respect, dominance and leadership. It’s about masculine/feminine polarity and human intersexual dynamics, which have a degree of evolutionary wiring in place that (as you noted) we haven’t evolved out of, regardless of how enlightened some folks think they are.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> There's a danger in reducing marriage to a simple financial contract, though. It's necessary in a divorce (to split assets), but a good marriage is a partnership, where success for one is success for both. I think different genders have different tendencies (and no amount of reprogramming will erase biology), but it doesn't have to be a competition, either.


I agree.

When Mrs Conan was the sole breadwinner for half a year, we were still very much the same team we had always been. She needed to be more emotionally supported and I was still her safeguard and protector. 

Interestingly, her sexual needs seemed to increase.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> It’s not actually about finances at all, that’s why in some cases SAHD scenarios can work.
> 
> It’s about competence, respect, dominance and leadership. It’s about masculine/feminine polarity and human intersexual dynamics, which have a degree of evolutionary wiring in place that (as you noted) we haven’t evolved out of, regardless of how enlightened some folks think they are.


Whew! I'm not evolved at all so I don't have to worry about it.😁


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> There is only so much any person can do, if the societal headwinds have become totally against you.
> If society becomes actively discriminatory against you, you're hooped.
> Look at how many competent blacks had to settle for lesser jobs than they are capable of because the societal headwinds at the time were totally against them.
> 
> It's like having to push forward while dragging around 30lbs around your neck.


1. We’re nowhere near that currently, and it’s not obvious to me that we will get to that point anytime soon.
2. And even then, look how many did succeed and improve their situation‘s. Many many success stories amid challenges and discrimination for those with competence and determination.
3. Then you add 30 pounds of muscle and build a stronger neck. 
Yes, that’s easier said than done, but it’s a hell of a lot better than wallowing in defeatist victimhood. If we ever actually end up at that point.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

DownButNotOut said:


> Women Who Make More Than Their Husbands Should Watch Out | Kiplinger
> 
> https://www.chicagobooth.edu/media-...ases/when-women-earn-more-than-their-husbands


Thanks. The 2 above don't really say if the 2 populations are similar or, if most of the SAHDs were unemployable due to some problem.


> Why promoted women are more likely to divorce


 This one mostly follows CEOs and briefly states results are similar for MDs, cops and clergy. While these professions are probably less likely to be married to drug addicts or convicts and thus support your claim, can't be sure.


> https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1082.9456&rep=rep1&type=pdf


Didn't open


> The Female Breadwinner: Phenomenological Experience and Gendered Identity in Work/Family Spaces - Sex Roles


Could only read the blurb, which claims they talked to 15 women about their experience.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Twodecades said:


> There's a danger in reducing marriage to a simple financial contract, though. It's necessary in a divorce (to split assets), but a good marriage is a partnership, where success for one is success for both. I think different genders have different tendencies (and no amount of reprogramming will erase biology), but it doesn't have to be a competition, either.


 IMHO, you hit the nail on the head here. Marriage should be a partnership, not a competition. I think men who insist on submissive wives that they bully around are, at their core, insecure. I’ve never understood why a woman succeeding takes anything away from men. Bottom line, alpha males can be a rock a woman can lean on while still encouraging her to stand on her own. Only betas are competitive in marriage. Usually because they can’t compete with alphas.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> IMHO, you hit the nail on the head here. Marriage should be a partnership, not a competition. I think men who insist on submissive wives that they bully around are, at their core, insecure. I’ve never understood why a woman succeeding takes anything away from men. Bottom line, alpha males can be a rock a woman can lean on while still encouraging her to stand on her own. Only betas are competitive in marriage. Usually because they can’t compete with alphas.


You can believe that if you want.
It shouldn't be, but feminism very much teaches that it is.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

I have some experience in this.

Through close to four years I, played the full-time stay at home parent role in my marriage which has so far lasted 22+ years. While subsequent to that I have run my own business from home although for the past two years I have again undertaken a stay at home role as primary carer for one of our children with a significant ongoing health problem, although I am now gladly getting back into doing work for my business again.

While before then I had been an intelligence professional, had worked in the media and had also been a full-time (Regular Army) and part-time (Army Reserve) soldier as well.

So for the most part except for different times when my business, sees me travel away for a few days through a week at a time on some occasions, I have mostly been at home playing a significant role in raising our kids, while my wife has continued to pursue a successful full-time career in her chosen profession.

That said except for a period of two years while my wife was on maternity leave, my wife has always been on a higher income than I. Yet I certainly appreciate the benefits of being married to my wife who is on a higher income than I, whose educational qualifications, effort, competence and achievements have seen her do well.

Yet I don't feel emasculated at all, I don't fear my wife cheating on me, I don't fear my marriage will come to an end (and I will certainly survive if it does), I don't feel lesser than, or anything else negative. In fact I quite enjoy being married to my wife and have a splendid time with her.

Plus as has always been the case ever since my wife asked me out on a date in 1996 and then dumped the guy she was with. I have always enjoyed a tremendously rich, very frequent shared sex life with her, and she still enthusiastically bangs me silly as I do her, even after I got fat and have grown man boobs.

As with all relationships, whether it works or not, depends upon who is in the relationship and how they behave. One doesn't need to have a male as a stay at home parent in a monogamous relationship, to see sexual infidelity occur from any of the parties involved.

Also make no mistake, there are plenty of emasculated men, who are married to wives who are stay at home parents as well. So who those men are has far more to do with them being emasculated, than what roles they choose to do.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Not really. For all the feminist BS, I think SAhDs tend to make wives want to vomit all over their emasculated husbands and instead they take Pierre the poon plower for a test ride.


Then I guess my wife must be doing it wrong. Since I have always enjoyed an extraordinarily splendid and frequent shared sex life with my wife. And do all sorts of things with her, that most men will never experience sexually with anyone (as has been the norm in all of my other ongoing sexual relationships with different women).


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> Yep. These men feel emasculated in their "subservient" role... convince themselves that the wife is just out living the awesome career life while he is left behind doing dishes. In their mind, what better way to prove his worth (to himself) than to go out and get some strange.


I can't speak for how other men feel, yet I've never felt emasculated or subservient to my wife at all ever and she has an awesome career (I also think it's terrific she has done well). And dishes have nothing to do with it, with us both taking turns doing the dishes amongst other chores as well. Yet I haven't and don't cheat on my wife, simply because I choose not to.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Problem is men aren't built or equipped to be SAHD. When women give birth, they become very forgetful because all that space they used before is now been crowded out for mothering skills. Then they become overrun with nurturing chemicals on top of that. The most stoic woman will become a weepy mess after birth. Plus they have boobs.


My ex-wife certainly became a weepy mess after giving birth (and I was the sole breadwinner in that relationship), yet my current (2nd) wife didn't. So not all women.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

> Men have none of those things. He has two things...keeping busy at making money or spreading his seed. If both of those is missing his worth will be invalidated.


Making money and spreading ones seed may be how some men value their worth.

Yet I really hope for your sake, that you find greater value in other things you have experienced and done, since there is so much more than just making money or spreading ones seed.

At the end of the day whatever path men and women choose for themselves, I hope they embrace whatever they choose and appreciate what they choose.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Numb26 said:


> I would think the hardest part of being a SAHD would be keeping your wife's dinner warm the nights she has work late with Keith from Accounting


Hmmm… in the coping with infidelity sub-forum on TAM, I sometimes read about other men who aren’t stay at home parents, who find themselves in exactly that situation of keeping the dinner warm while their wives are playing with other men. So plenty of men (like plenty of women) can sometimes find themselves on the wrong end of infidelity, no matter what they do.

Yet in my experience my wife finished (finishes) at 5pm and would be (is) home within 5-10 minutes after that. Sure she would certainly (and does) sometimes bring work home. Yet staying late was seldom ever a thing, and on the rare occasions it did (does) occur it would see (sees) her attending public government meetings or providing in person presentations to public audiences. So no keeping dinner warm not knowing where she is, and as always we have taken turns at sharing cooking dinner.

Your mileage may vary of course.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DudeInProgress said:


> Other than a short term, temporary situation, I see no societal conditions that would necessitate a man being a SAHD.
> 
> It’s a choice, and there are always options and alternatives. Unless that’s your thing.
> 
> I think it parallels the whole swinger/open marriage thing. Sure, it can work effectively four a small minority of couples, but in the vast majority of marriages, these scenarios are likely to end poorly.


Of course it's a choice as long as one is fortunate enough to afford to have that choice, regardless of which gender undertakes the role of stay at home parent. Since not everybody has the income to afford to have only one spouse work outside of the home.

As with all marital relationships what works for some may not work for others. All marriages are not the same, they vary in different ways depending upon the people in each marriage. What is normal for one marriage is strange to another marriage and vice versa in numerous variations.

What matters is what we as individuals do in our own marriages. If something isn't working then change it, if it does work then carry on.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> Of course it's a choice as long as one is fortunate enough to afford to have that choice, regardless of which gender undertakes the role of stay at home parent. Since not everybody has the income to afford to have only one spouse work outside of the home.
> 
> As with all marital relationships what works for some may not work for others. All marriages are not the same, they vary in different ways depending upon the people in each marriage. What is normal for one marriage is strange to another marriage and vice versa in numerous variations.
> 
> What matters is what we as individuals do in our own marriages. If something isn't working then change it, if it does work then carry on.


Thank you @Personal for bringing your first-hand, real world experience to an otherwise very chauvinistic and stereotyping thread. 

As I stated previously, there is a very entrenched public image of a SAHD as either a lazy, shiftless, do-nuth’n that stays at home to avoid working so he can play video games - or an effeminate, subservient simp that doesn’t have the balls to be a masculine force and take care of business in the household. 

If that is the conclusion we are all jumping to the moment “SAHD” is uttered, no wonder it is striking such a nerve and causing so much chest thumping and saber rattling.

At least a couple of our resident he-man types have admitted that it might work on a ‘temporary’ basis.

But let’s be fair and flip this around, are most men going to want their wives to be a full time SAHM FOR LIFE? Don’t most couples today have at least some expectation that the mom will return to some form of income when the kids are off to school? 

Won’t most men lose respect and attraction for a SAHM if she is a do-nuth’n and just sits home all day on Facebook getting fat while the dirty dishes pile up, the cat box is overflowing and the kids are filthy? Is that ok as long as it a female at home??? 

Is whether we stand or sit to pee really that big of a factor in who is taking care of the kids and home if both parties are conscientious, functional and productive adults taking care of business? 

Likewise is what is between our legs determine how harmonious life will be if one or the other is a lazy, shiftless blob that just sits there while things fall apart all around? 

I agree that there is probably some evo-psyche taking place that makes us uncomfortable and quick to blame if something is a little out of tradition. 

But that just means we need to be a little more mindful and work a little harder. 

We may be influenced by our ancestral past but we aren’t slaves to it. We do have conscious choice and can effect our own destiny. 

Are we free will beings that can determine our outcomes or are we beasts in the field governed solely by instinct? 

Are men so weak and ineffectual that we can only carry home a check lest we be cheated on and abandoned, or are we adaptable and capable beings that can take on different roles and still be vital and significant?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TexasM
[QUOTE="oldshirt said:


> Thank you @Personal for bringing your first-hand, real world experience to an otherwise very chauvinistic and stereotyping thread.
> 
> As I stated previously, there is a very entrenched public image of a SAHD as either a lazy, shiftless, do-nuth’n that stays at home to avoid working so he can play video games - or an effeminate, subservient simp that doesn’t have the balls to be a masculine force and take care of business in the household.
> 
> ...


No. I would never lose respect for a sahm. Mrs. C has had the option to work when it didn't negatively impact her or the family.

She also worked with me for several years long after the boys were grown but she has only had to work once when I wasn't able to.

There are double standards that are ok because men are not, and never will be, interchangeable with women. LoL!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> No. I would never lose respect for a sahm. Mrs. C has had the option to work when it didn't negatively impact her or the family.
> 
> She also worked with me for several years long after the boys were grown but she has only had to work once when I wasn't able to.
> 
> There are double standards that are ok because men are not, and never will be, interchangeable with women. LoL!


I get your point, But that’s still not apples to apples. 

Would you respect and desire her if she sat home all day drinking and finger ‘F’ing her phone on Facebook while the kids ran amok and the dishes and laundry and turds in the cat box all piled up??

I’m not talking about interchangeability between men and women, I’m talking about being productive and functional adults. 

SAHDs have been presented as being lazy and not really doing anything while they’re at home. So to make it a fair comparison, would you respect and desire Mrs Conan if sat home on her phone getting fat and doing nuth’n while the kids were getting into stuff unsupervised and had filthy diapers when you home??


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> I get your point, But that’s still not apples to apples.
> 
> Would you respect and desire her if she sat home all day drinking and finger ‘F’ing her phone on Facebook while the kids ran amok and the dishes and laundry and turds in the cat box all piled up??
> 
> ...


Ok. Nope. I'm definitely repulsed by anyone who is lazy.

If that was your point, I agree.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

oldshirt said:


> I get your point, But that’s still not apples to apples.
> 
> Would you respect and desire her if she sat home all day drinking and finger ‘F’ing her phone on Facebook while the kids ran amok and the dishes and laundry and turds in the cat box all piled up??
> 
> ...


To keep it fair, how about she is keeping up her end of the deal at home. BUT ... all of Conan's friends, family, coworkers, and TAM posters, are telling him that she is lazy, doing nothing, couch potato who is sponging off of his hard work and advising him to make her work or leave her.

I mean, since you are insisting on comparing with the negative stereotype.

I'd bet that quite a few women breadwinners find themselves trying to defend their stay at home husband to their friends and family regardless of how productive of a homemaker he happens to be.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Twodecades said:


> I think different genders have different tendencies (and no amount of reprogramming will erase biology), but it doesn't have to be a competition, either.


I also believe we have a degree of evolutionary tendencies and predisposition.

But we’re not slaves to it. We have free will and agency. We’re not mindless beasts of pure instinct. 

We can choose to be non traditional. But with that we need to be mindful about it and aware of the risks and ramifications. We need to communicate our goals and objectives as well our boundaries and parameters effectively.

And consequently, we also have to work harder and do it better when we take on a non traditional role. 

Women have had to do this predominantly male occupations and roles and so too would a man in a predominantly female role. 

Men can be effective SAHDs and can maintain a happy and healthy marriage. But he’s going to have to work hard and do it better. 

I think a lot of what’s taking place is male slackers get a little more leeway if he is bringing home the meat. 

A male slacker in the home not bringing home the meat is qoing to flushed a lot more quickly.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I also believe we have a degree of evolutionary tendencies and predisposition.
> 
> But we’re not slaves to it. We have free will and agency. We’re not mindless beasts of pure instinct.
> 
> ...


Interesting points, Oldshirt. I guess the question isn't whether men CAN do it, but rather SHOULD they, en mass? Just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you _should_ do that thing. As a cultural shift, is it a good one for marriages and families? Is going against biological tendencies (I'm not talking about harnessing and controlling good tendencies, but trying to flip them) a productive move?

Another example that comes to mind is having children. Birth control and abortion has enabled people to pare their family sizes waaaay down. (Not knocking smaller families--theu have their upsides.) Which results in lower birth rates. Which in some countries places a huge burden on younger people to care for a much larger aging population and creates a huge burden on the workforce. While I don't think it's wrong for people to choose to wait to have kids until they're older or even for a couple to choose not to have kids at all, what happens when as a society we quit valuing human life and seeing children as a gift, and instead view them as little curses? Things to be avoided and responsibilities that just aren't worth it?

Sometimes individual circumstances require a different lens than huge cultural movements.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Ok. Nope. I'm definitely repulsed by anyone who is lazy.
> 
> If that was your point, I agree.


That has been my point since the start of this thread. 

There is a societal assumption that a SAHD is a slacker and just doesn’t want to work or has low income potential and sits at home playing video games.

Yes, women will not respect or desire that man and will likely seek someone else and leave in time. 

But, as you said, a man is going to lose respect and desire for female slacker and do-nuth’n eventually as well.

It’s about adulting and being an effective and productive adult. 

Quite frankly, I think this thread has become insulting and degrading to men and men are not being given credit.

Men run into burning buildings. Men built pyramids and have walked on the moon. Men jump out of airplanes under enemy fire in the dead of night.

... so I think men can also be capable of changing diapers, warming bottles of milk, maintaining a functional household and giving their wives high octane loving when they get home. 

Some of the guys here thumping their chests and talking about what “real men” do are actually presenting men as weak and ineffectual. 

I HAVE jumped out of airplanes and have ran into burning buildings and pulled people out of plane crashes and train wrecks and yet I can change diapers and warm bottles and still throw my partner’s legs over my shoulders and show her what a man can do and what it’s like to be a woman.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Thank you @Personal for bringing your first-hand, real world experience to an otherwise very chauvinistic and stereotyping thread.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Some of the guys here thumping their chests and talking about what “real men” do are actually presenting men as weak and ineffectual.


Thank you to you and @Personal too for bringing this thread back into the 21st century.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> That has been my point since the start of this thread.
> 
> There is a societal assumption that a SAHD is a slacker and just doesn’t want to work or has low income potential and sits at home playing video games.
> 
> ...


It actually isn't just a societal assumption that sahd's are generally lazy. It's statistical as well. I agree that men have done all the things you mentioned but, for some reason, the sahd's are generally lazy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownButNotOut said:


> To keep it fair, how about she is keeping up her end of the deal at home. BUT ... all of Conan's friends, family, coworkers, and TAM posters, are telling him that she is lazy, doing nothing, couch potato who is sponging off of his hard work and advising him to make her work or leave her.
> 
> I mean, since you are insisting on comparing with the negative stereotype.
> 
> I'd bet that quite a few women breadwinners find themselves trying to defend their stay at home husband to their friends and family regardless of how productive of a homemaker he happens to be.


Yep.

That’s the price we pay any time we go against tradition and convention. 

That’s why I said above, anything going against tradition, one will need to be mindful and purposeful, communicate intentions and parameters effectively and you’re simply going to have to work harder and do it better. 

....and have a thick skin and put up with other people’s ignorance and judgmentalism.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Twodecades said:


> Interesting points, Oldshirt. I guess the question isn't whether men CAN do it, but rather SHOULD they, en mass? Just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you _should_ do that thing. As a cultural shift, is it a good one for marriages and families? Is it going against biological tendencies (I'm not talking about harnessing and controlling good tendencies, but trying to flip them) a productive move?
> 
> Another example that comes to mind is having children. Birth control and abortion has enabled people to pare their family sizes waaaay down. (Not knocking smaller families--theu have their upsides.) Which results in lower birth rates. Which in some countries places a huge burden on younger people to care for a much larger aging population and creates a huge burden on the workforce. While I don't think it's wrong for people to choose to wait to have kids until they're older or even for a couple to choose not to have kids at all, what happens when as a society we quit valuing human life and seeing children as a gift, and instead view them as little curses? Things to be avoided and responsibilities that just aren't worth it?
> 
> Sometimes individual circumstances require a different lens than huge cultural movements.


I doubt if many men are going to even want to be a SAHD in the first place. 

And I am quite comfortable in saying most women aren’t going to think that any man is going to take care of the house and kids well enough. 

I was never a SAHD but my wife and I worked different days and shifts when the kids were little and no matter how spotless the house was or how on-point the kids were, it was never good enough and she always found fault in something I did or did not do. 

No matter how good or involved of a father I was, I was never a good mother. 

I don’t see that concept changing any time soon and so I don’t see SAHDs becoming a standard thing any time soon. 

It CAN work for some people. But it will take a unique and special couple to make it work.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

oldshirt said:


> It CAN work for some people. But it will take a unique and special couple to make it work.


Which is really the point. In general, a SAHD/Breadwinner Mom situation does not work out.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> There are double standards that are ok because men are not, and never will be, interchangeable with women. LoL!


Are they double standards or is it division of labor between two complimentary roles??

One fact of life is it is females that gestate and lactate so there for are the ones carrying, delivering and nursing the offspring. 

That puts them in a vulnerable and compromised state that requires support and protection for a period of time. 

But there comes a point where the roles can still be a complimentary division of labor but with gender roles reversed.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Are they double standards or is it division of labor between two complimentary roles??
> 
> One fact of life is it is females that gestate and lactate so there for are the ones carrying, delivering and nursing the offspring.
> 
> ...


I don't agree that gender roles will ever be reversed simply because of the facts of biology at least and many other factors that might get labeled social constructs but are very solid to me and my ilk.

Pregnancy is not the only reason that men have far more of the burden when it comes to provision and protection.

Just the physical aspect is enough to go on.

Women simply break down physically much faster than men in high physical stress situations as well as not being able to physically perform at the levels their male counterparts do.

We are possibly talking about different topics?


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

I keep seeing post claiming that some are saying that a SAHD is less manly and that those who advise against it, are puffing their chest out. That is not the case. Yes there are a few women who explained what they dealt with but there are no men posting that a sahd can’t be manly or that guys who are the sole breadwinner are better men. What has been said is that most women grow resentful and that considering how SAHDs are such a small percentage of the population they do seem to get betrayed and dumped at a very high rate. 

I know it can work for some but overall, it rarely works long term. It is false equivalence to talk about sahm. Majority of men are proud to be able to support their family and have their wife home to care for the kids. A man will feel like a good provider to be able to pull it off. Are there woman that are proud to be the sole breadwinner for the family and that her husband is home with the kids? I’m sure there might be a few but I’d wager that most women would be a little embarrassed because women are usually attracted to men that are above them on a socioeconomic level. 

Look at the huge number of articles about “where have all the good men gone? These “educated “ professional want a guy above their level. With colleges being between 60 to 70% female, the number of guys that will be able to meet these women’s expectations is dwindling. So now they complain about settling for a guys that make less than them and are less “educated.” So eventually we will have more SAHDs. Will these women be happy long term?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jsmart said:


> I keep seeing post claiming that some are saying that a SAHD is less manly and that those who advise against it, are puffing their chest out. That is not the case. Yes there are a few women who explained what they dealt with but there are no men posting that a sahd can’t be manly or that guys who are the sole breadwinner are better men. What has been said is that most women grow resentful and that considering how SAHDs are such a small percentage of the population they do seem to get betrayed and dumped at a very high rate.
> 
> I know it can work for some but overall, it rarely works long term. It is false equivalence to talk about sahm. Majority of men are proud to be able to support their family and have their wife home to care for the kids. A man will feel like a good provider to be able to pull it off. Are there woman that are proud to be the sole breadwinner for the family and that her husband is home with the kids? I’m sure there might be a few but I’d wager that most women would be a little embarrassed because women are usually attracted to men that are above them on a socioeconomic level.
> 
> Look at the huge number of articles about “where have all the good men gone? These “educated “ professional want a guy above their level. With colleges being between 60 to 70% female, the number of guys that will be able to meet these women’s expectations is dwindling. So now they complain about settling for a guys that make less than them and are less “educated.” So eventually we will have more SAHDs. Will these women be happy long term?


We live in different times than our parents and grandparents. 

It’s pointless to argue over whether men “should” ever be SAHDs or even whether women will be happy with that. 

The reality is society and the labor force and the job market and economics and social customs and such have all changed over time and will continue to ebb and flow and change over time. 

I am not saying that men should or should not be SAHDs. I am saying that it is a reality that some will be and I assume that number will grow in upcoming years. It is a sociological fact of life that we will all have to contend with whether we personally believe it is a good idea or not. 

The moment the OP posted the first post, people immediately jumped to that the women would inevitably become resentful and cheat and leave. 

Will that occur in a good number of cases?? Yeah probably.

Will it be the majority? Perhaps. 

But with the divorce rate around 50% throughout all marital domains, divorce is also a force will will have to contend with as a society. 

Now does that mean that all families with a SAHD inevitably be sentenced to doom? Is hypergamy so automatic and so powerful that we are slaves to it and helpless against its unrelenting might???

Hardly. 

From my first post, my assertion has been that if a SAHD has a purpose and a plan and puts in the work and effort of running the hearth and home and managing the children, he can be just as viable and there is no reason to knee-jerk assume that his wife will lose all respect and desire for him and inevitably dump him for Kevin from sales. 

Men and women are both bigger and better than that. 

It will take mindfulness. It will take effective and meaningful communication. And it will take work and effort.

Where have we heard about mindfulness, communications and work in marriage before??? 

I do believe in eco-psyche. But I believe in the human spirit more. This is the 21ist century and people change and adapt. 

We don’t have to eat bugs and throw poop at each other on the plains of Africa anymore. A guy can change diapers and load/unload the dishwasher and still be a man. 

And our mothers and grandmothers did not picket and march in the streets for equal opportunity and pay in the work force just to kick out the father of her children if they as a couple mindfully choose for him to stay home with the kids for awhile.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jsmart said:


> Will these women be happy long term?


Side note:

No. Women will not be happy long term. 

Neither will men.

No one is ever happy long term. We have 80 year life spans and those years are in constant flux and constant wax and wane and constant ebb and flow. 

Just because something is the best option and best course of action today, does not mean that it will be the best option or path tomorrow.

Nor does it mean what we choose today will have to be our destiny tomorrow. People can change paths and everyone does change a variety of paths over the course of their lives.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jsmart said:


> Look at the huge number of articles about “where have all the good men gone? These “educated “ professional want a guy above their level. With colleges being between 60 to 70% female, the number of guys that will be able to meet these women’s expectations is dwindling. So now they complain about settling for a guys that make less than them and are less “educated.”


Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos are two of the richest men on the planet and their wives dumped them. 

I posted yesterday about Tom Brady’s wife b1tching about him. 

That means no woman can ever be truly satisfied no matter what her partner is. 

Look up Dr Laura Schlesinger’s “Husband Store” analogy if you want to hear a perfect description of that. 

Yes, women are achieving Bachelors degrees in higher numbers than men currently. 

But how many of those are actual useful, marketable degrees in today’s economy? 

How many of those degrees are in liberal arts like psychology or sociology, history, English or women’s studys? 

Have you seen any job openings in the classified for a sociologist lately?? 

There are some plumbers out there making more than some doctors and lawyers. 

But yes, from an economic and sociological standpoint, there are going to be more SAHDs in the upcoming years than there have been historically. 

Is hypergamy going to be a factor? Yes, it’s always a factor. Even if the guy is the breadwinner and she’s a SAHM, there’s always going to be another guy out there making more and she’ll always be looking to trade up. 

But hypergamy isn’t all dollars and cents,, it’s all-encompassing and a big amorphous voice in the back of her mind that says to get the guy that will give her and her offspring the best chance for survival and propagation. 

A SAHD can still be that option but he has to be on point and on his purpose, and he’s going to have to work harder and do it better.

Not many men will be up for that challenge. 

But the ones who can do it, and do it well, should not be at any higher risk than the next guy in a traditional marriage.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

@oldshirt , I know that women betray and leave even the most alpha successful men too. Of course that happens to them way less than it would to an average guy. Hypergamy is very real. I just don’t think it’s a good idea to for a man to put himself in a situation that goes against biology. 

have you threads off guys who give up on their career prospects to move to a new place for their wife’s career? Those guys seem to do as badly as SAHDs. Those types of threads are heart breaking. The wife completely changes on them and embarks on the usual marital history rewrite in order to justify themselves. Those type of WWs tend to be the iciest too.

There are many hardworking men who work at jobs that are both physically and mentally tiring yet are well paying. I admire these men and know that just because they didn’t go to college, doesn’t mean they’re uneducated. But I’ve read MANY articles of “educated “ women who think that since she has a college degree, she’s above such a man. Even if he’s a highly paid specialist that is running his own business, these women think they are somehow settling if they don’t have a guy that’s a “professional”.
So even though our colleges are mostly full of women getting degrees that are of questionable value, our corporate hiring departments, are hiring them for decently paying careers, while a sizable amount of the good paying jobs that men tend to gravitate to are outsourced to other countries. So is the answer for more men to become house husbands?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jsmart said:


> @oldshirt , I know that women betray and leave even the most alpha successful men too. Of course that happens to them way less than it would to an average guy. Hypergamy is very real. I just don’t think it’s a good idea to for a man to put himself in a situation that goes against biology.
> 
> have you threads off guys who give up on their career prospects to move to a new place for their wife’s career? Those guys seem to do as badly as SAHDs. Those types of threads are heart breaking. The wife completely changes on them and embarks on the usual marital history rewrite in order to justify themselves. Those type of WWs tend to be the iciest too.
> 
> ...


Yes those are all challenges men face. I agree that hypergamy is a thing. 

Hypergamy is something that men need to be aware of and address whether they are the breadwinner or a SAHD. 

Keep in mind Hypergamy isn’t just about the dollar sign on the paycheck. It is a subconscious little voice that tells her to always get the best man she can that will best assure her and her offspring’s survival and success. 

So whether the guy is the breadwinner or a SAHD, hypergamy is addressed the same - be large and in charge, Make a plan and work hard and diligently and navigate the ship to that destination. 

Mindfulness, communication, hard work.

If being a SAHD looks like the best option for family success, then make the plan, take the helm and captain the ship with strength and determination. 

Now a SAHD will not get the benefit of the doubt or any leeway, so his $hit has to be tight and he has to be on top of his game and work harder and do it better. 

But it can be done. 

Again, I am not saying that men should or should not become SAHDs. That is up to each couple to way the variables and decide for themselves. 

But I’m saying if a guy plays his card right and does it right, he shouldn’t be at any greater risk than the next guy.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Yes those are all challenges men face. I agree that hypergamy is a thing.
> 
> Hypergamy is something that men need to be aware of and address whether they are the breadwinner or a SAHD.
> 
> ...


Or to quote Joshua, "Strange game. Only winning move is not to play"


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> Or to quote Joshua, "Strange game. Only winning move is not to play"


War Games!!!!!!


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

All these years later, that’s still great movie.


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

A man who wants to become SAHD has to look for a woman who can support him and his children and who is professionally and financially successful. Sexual attraction and romance are not important - you can get them elsewhere. SAHM do that too.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

JTK-NCC1701 said:


> A man who wants to become SAHD has to look for a woman who can support him and his children and who is professionally and financially successful. Sexual attraction and romance are not important - you can get them elsewhere. SAHM do that too.


No we are making the leap from SAHD to open marriage? Really? Sounds like a man that has been hired to be a nanny.


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> No we are making the leap from SAHD to open marriage? Really? Sounds like a man that has been hired to be a nanny.


 ......and does a meaningful job compared to most jobs.....and saves his fathers rights.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> Thank you to you and @Personal too for bringing this thread back into the 21st century.


Yeah right the 21st century. The century where men have become, simps, have not balls, cry like little girls, they accept not having sex with their wife because she says so. Stay home being daddy/mommy while mommy is out there with the men. I would rather stay in the 20th century then.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rob_1 said:


> Yeah right the 21st century. The century where men have become, simps, have not balls, cry like little girls, they accept not having sex with their wife because she says so. Stay home being daddy/mommy while mommy is out there with the men. I would rather stay in the 20th century then.


^^This!!!! The "21st Century" man is now a woman. Make sure you have plenty of Manpons in your Murse, it's gonna be a bumpy ride!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> Yeah right the 21st century. The century where men have become, simps, have not balls, cry like little girls, they accept not having sex with their wife because she says so. Stay home being daddy/mommy while mommy is out there with the men. I would rather stay in the 20th century then.


You can stay in the 20th century if you want. Leave your iPhone at the door, reactivate your landline and get dial-up internet for your PC LOL 😆 

The thing is the 21st century is here whether you want to be in it or not. 

For some families this is a reality whether whether they originally wanted it or not. For some people it simply makes dollars and sense. 

With changing economic and social conditions, people may find themselves facing these decisions and options. 

As an online marriage/relationship forum we can shame, belittle and criticize it and showcase our own fears, insecurities and bigotry because something is different than what we grew up with.

Or we can have open and honest discussions about it and discuss the potential pros and cons and risks vs rewards in a meaningful and constructive manner. 

We can look at an issue and say why we think it won’t work.

Or we can we can assess and evaluate and come up with ideas on how someone in that situation can make it work.


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

The first famous SAHD in the 70s.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I would just add that staying home while your wife works doesn't necessarily make you a SAHD.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

My XH was a SAHD and I do think it was the beginning of the end for our marriage. I did not lose respect for him because he was wasn’t the provider. I lost respect and resented the **** out of him because he became a do-nothing parent and spouse. And I mean nothing - no shopping, no laundry, no cleaning, no yard work, no walks with the kids, no trips to the park, no learning to ride bikes, no catch. Diapers were changed, kids were fed and the tv was put on Nickelodeon. So it all fell on my shoulders on top of work and a long commute. This wasn’t a case of things not being done to my standards, anything even half-assed would be better than nothing. He worked PT on weekends and somehow I was able to get it all done in those two days - mow the lawn, laundry, grocery shopping, play dates - and still care for our kids. What drove me nuts is that everyone felt bad for HIM! “He’s doing the best he can” Um, no, no he is not.

It was seriously awful and my BP spikes thinking about it. But here is the thing - he wasn’t “lazy” - he was depressed. He actually loved being a SAHD the first couple years and was damn good at it. He let the comments from a few ******* high school classmates get in his head. He wasn’t a “real” man. From my perspective he was a short, bald, unskilled laborer in his 40’s that had managed to score the much younger prom queen, and she paid the bills - seems like a lots of game to me. Nope. He felt emasculated. That was the reason he cited for his affair - emasculation.

One of the guys in our wedding also became a SAHD. Same exact situation - middle aged unskilled laborer married to a younger woman that brought home the money. He was on cloud nine. He used to say “I’m a great guy and great things happen for me”. One night his wife came home to him cooking in nothing but an apron because he had taken their 3 year old golfing instead of doing the laundry. She was miffed in the moment but he didn’t care. He prioritized what made him happy and that was spending one of the last nice days of the season out on the course with his son. She had moments of annoyance but honestly thought this guy hung the moon. He unfortunately died when their son was 12 so I am so happy he got those experiences in with him.

Another SAHD I know was a retired prison guard. Wife stayed home when they were really young and then he stayed home when they were elementary school. Guys would heckle him about being a kept man. He would reply that he was home on his boat and his wife was out working to get him a bigger boat, what were they doing?

I do think men can be great primary parents. But from my experience I think they need to have a great sense of self and know their own value. Because we had such a bad experience with it I would have to discourage our son from being a SAHD if that situation presented.

Would i have lost respect for him and left him eventually if he had continued to be a good SAHD and he hadn’t cheated? Can’t really say because that isn’t what happened to me, but my first reaction was no, I wouldn’t have. But I sat with this a few days because the entire topic is a major trigger. I got to thinking that he was clearly depressed and if I truly loved and respected him I would’ve approached it in a loving, concerned manner at some point Whether that was mental health help or encouraging him to become an electrician like he always wanted or just taking any ****ing job available. I didn’t do any of that. I got angry and resentful. Maybe I did already lose respect for him.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

JTK-NCC1701 said:


> A man who wants to become SAHD has to look for a woman who can support him and his children and who is professionally and financially successful. Sexual attraction and romance are not important - you can get them elsewhere. SAHM do that too.


As a man who has undertaken the role of stay at home parent, I can't imagine wanting to be with any woman sexually who I am not sexually attracted to and that applies especially to marriage as well.

Of which at least for my wife and I, our relationship began with nothing more than wanton sexual lust. While continuing to share that lust for each other after decades of being together with tremendous frequency, still remains an essential component in enabling the happy marriage we share.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

If some guys want to be SAHDS, I think that's cool. To each their own. 

I don't think it will ever be the norm or the majority. That's just me, though. 

I think the majority of men gain their purpose from working hard and providing for their wives and families. I know I do. 

I lost my job back in 2009 when the housing market crashed a year prior. I fell into a deep depression. Couldn't find work. I wanted to leave town to find work elsewhere but my wife was determined for us to stay here. I was out of work for 11 months. I felt worthless. I felt that my wife was losing respect for me - real or perceived. Regardless, I feel like it is my job, my duty to protect and take care of her. I think most men will feel the same. 

If other couples can make it work, so be it. I'm not going to heckle men that stay at home, but I've also witnessed many wives lose a great deal of respect for their husbands that do stay at home. Of course, this is just anecdotal evidence of the handful of couples I know where there is a SAHD.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Rob_1 said:


> Yeah right the 21st century. The century where men have become, simps, have not balls, cry like little girls, they accept not having sex with their wife because she says so. Stay home being daddy/mommy while mommy is out there with the men. I would rather stay in the 20th century then.





Numb26 said:


> ^^This!!!! The "21st Century" man is now a woman. Make sure you have plenty of Manpons in your Murse, it's gonna be a bumpy ride!


That's an interesting perspective, which might apply to some yet it certainly doesn't apply to all.

Of which there is a parade of men who have posted here year after year (men who came of age variously in the 1960s through the 1990s (last century), who find themselves in sexual relationships with women. Who have only shared a very limited repertoire of sexual activities and or quickly just turn the sex tap off completely. Yet almost all of those men are the primary or sole breadwinners in their relationships. So not undertaking the role of stay at home parent, is no guarantee that a man will have a better outcome either.

That said I do find some of the rhetoric that you both have been offering regarding men who do stay at home parenting, somewhat amusing.

Especially since I was a stay at home parent for close to four years, yet I don't fit what you claim applies to men who undertake stay at home parenting.

That said I certainly don't think having a husband stay at home, while the wife goes out to earn a living, will work for everyone.

To the point that I doubt it would have worked for me either, if all I did was only play the stay at home dad and had nothing else in my life to pursue. Although I can't imagine anyone man or woman finding just being a stay at home parent a rewarding experience if that is all that they do either.

So at the end of the day, who you are and how you handle yourself whatever you do and experience, matters far more than just what job you do. Since life is often what you make of it.

The above was a lot longer, yet it was almost as long as War and Peace, so I cut it back to make it a quick read.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Dude. How long did it take you to type that out?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> I don't know... I still think that even 3 cases do not represent the majority. Your experience is important, but I don't like generalisations. This thread has turned into a massive and unhelpful bashing of SAHDs from red pill men and I'm out.


Yep. I have no idea why they get so uptight. If they don't want to do it then don't do it. 
Bashing the men and the couples where this works is wrong. I take my hat off to those couples who go against the flow and for whom it works. For those men who are so secure in their manhood that they are happy to take this role on, either for short or long term periods. For the children who benefit from having two parents who are capable of caring for them full time. For the extra skills they learn while doing this.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Only if they're in an alimony state, but that is only fair in certain situations.
> 
> There are ALWAYS going to be problems, no matter what the situation, always. I think it can only improve the overall attitude about division of chores and childrearing if men see what it's really like to be stuck at home with little ones doing everything. It's not 9-5. It's 24/7. Women ALREADY know what working full-time is like.


My ex husband used to say to me that he could never do what I do. IE caring for three children and running a home. He recognised how hard it is to work 24/7.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Personal said:


> That's an interesting perspective, which might apply to some yet it certainly doesn't apply to all.
> 
> Of which there is a parade of men who have posted here year after year (men who came of age variously in the 1960s through the 1990s (last century), who find themselves in sexual relationships with women. Who have only shared a very limited repertoire of sexual activities and or quickly just turn the sex tap off completely. Yet almost all of those men are the primary or sole breadwinners in their relationships. So not undertaking the role of stay at home parent, is no guarantee that a man will have a better outcome either.
> 
> ...


Wow! That was quite a novella. After reading it and making it through 2 cups of coffee I have two thoughts. 

1. You are correct, Life is what you make it. If being a SAHD is something that you find safety and pleasure in, more power to you. But it still doesn't change the basic fact that there is a marked difference between what is considered a man now and what was considered a man even 30 years ago. Of my group of friends and associates there has only been 2 that have gone the SAHD route. Both have drifted out of the group circle because over time they no longer fit in. I would imagine that would be the hardest part of being a SAHD, the loneliness.

2. After reading that diatribe I can't help but wonder, who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Numb26 said:


> 2. After reading that diatribe I can't help but wonder, who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself?


I just like being a contrarian, and I was procrastinating to avoid editing a pile of RAW photos for publication.

Cheers. 😊


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Personal said:


> I just like being a contrarian, and I was procrastinating to avoid editing a pile of RAW photos for publication.
> 
> Cheers. 😊


I have the number of a good publisher if you need one. LOL

Kanpai! 🙂


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Dude. How long did it take you to type that out?


About 35 minutes, although it’s in the TLDR category so I’ll edit it down.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Personal said:


> As a man who has undertaken the role of stay at home parent, I can't imagine wanting to be with any woman sexually who I am not sexually attracted to and that applies especially to marriage as well.
> 
> Of which at least for my wife and I, our relationship began with nothing more than wanton sexual lust. While continuing to share that lust for each other after decades of being together with tremendous frequency, still remains an essential component in enabling the happy marriage we share.


Yeah, I don't get @JTK-NCC1701 leap from SAHD to an open marriage. Is this to achieve full emasculation? Be the man nanny of my kids and while we're at it I'll get sex from another man too. i also can't imagine a single man looking to become a SAHD right out of the box. The implication is the husband is just a sperm donor lined up to care for the kids.


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yeah, I don't get @JTK-NCC1701 leap from SAHD to an open marriage. Is this to achieve full emasculation? Be the man nanny of my kids and while we're at it I'll get sex from another man too. i also can't imagine a single man looking to become a SAHD right out of the box. The implication is the husband is just a sperm donor lined up to care for the kids.


Still much better than most ******** jobs.


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)

If this arcticle is true stay at home dads are really emancipated.





__





Esther Vilar - WikiMANNia







en.wikimannia.org


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## JTK-NCC1701 (Jul 21, 2020)




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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

JTK-NCC1701 said:


> Still much better than most ****** jobs.


So you really aren't talking about men being a SAHD. That implies, at least in my mind, that they are a husband in a "normal" marriage and the couple decides to have the husband stay home to care for the kids and the household. You are simply equating it to a job. That isn't a SAHD, it is a nanny and/or housekeeper.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I was never a SAHD and had no interest in ever doing so.

I was however a weekend dad from the time my first was about 1 year old until my youngest was roughly 12 and my wife went from weekend package working 12-14 hours a day every weekend to regular full time employment.

I had the kids all weekend, every weekend for a dozen or more years.

As such, I feel I have the right to weigh in on hands-on childrearing.

One thing I don’t think the chest-thumpers on this thread grasp is that fathering kids does not have to mean being limited to baking cookies and having tea parties.

Yes I have played with mermaids in the bath tub and changed many a Barbie outfit with my daughter.

But, we have also gone on motorcycle rides, gone kayaking, camping, rock climbing, rappelling, worked out together in our home gym, had them help me working in the yard and fixing Leakey toilets.

I took the kids fishing, camping and took the to the rifle range and taught them respect, safety and competence with a variety of firearms. We went snorkeling in open water from about the age of 6.

We wrestled and sparred and worked out with gloves and a heavy bag and taught them self defense.

My daughter is now almost 20, she can swear like a sailor, set up a campsite, change flat tires, jump start a dead battery, hang book shelves, unclog toilets, kill spiders, handle/shoot guns and have full agency in her relationships. She doesn’t “need” a man, but she is able to relate to them and go toe to toe with them and have healthy and mutually respectful relationships with them.

My 17 son Has been a certified SCUBA diver since the age of TEN. He is an accomplished competition shooter that has placed in the top 3 in our state across all age categories including law enforcement and military competitors. He purchased his own motorcycle at 15 with his own money and he is heading out into the woods this weekend by himself bow hunting. He is currently preparing himself to enlist in the military when he turns 18.

HERE IS MY POINT -

I WAS NOT FEMINIZED BY RAISING MY KIDS.

The reality is I was able to fully embrace and exercise my masculinity and masculine energy and presence with my kids and I was able to pass that masculine force on to them.

We hunted, we fished, we rode motorcycles, we lifted weights, punched heavy bags and shot guns, pitched tents and cooked over campfires.

So I’m not sure where the chest-thumpers are getting that an involved father isn’t masculine and can’t bring masculine energy to the table.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> HERE IS MY POINT -
> 
> I WAS NOT FEMINIZED BY RAISING MY KIDS.
> 
> The reality is I was able to fully embrace and exercise my masculinity and masculine energy and presence with my kids and I was able to pass that masculine force on to them.


This is the TLDR version of my post above.

When I had my kids, I did not turn into a woman or even turn into a mother. I never tried or even intended to be a mother. 

I was a father. And an important note to that was able was able to have unrestrained masculine energy with the kids without their mother being right there telling me not to play rough with them or telling me not to coach them over the ledge of a cliff while rappelling and rock climbing. 

They got bloody noses and fat lips sparring. With ice bags and cotton balls stuffed up their nostrils, they were fine by the time mom got home and since it was our little secret, she was never the wiser 😆 

I was able to do MORE MASCULINE ACTIVITIES without their mom their telling me it was too dangerous or that it might hurt or scare or stress them. 

I saw my role as father is teach them how to manage risk and how to deal with stress and fear. 

I was better able to do that without their mother there.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> This is the TLDR version of my post above.
> 
> When I had my kids, I did not turn into a woman or even turn into a mother. I never tried or even intended to be a mother.
> 
> ...


A stay home dad is in a great position to retrain and start a home business, while caring for the house. 
That is an advantage, without undercutting his masculinity.


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## Cici1990 (Feb 22, 2021)

The chest-thumpers and their need to constantly remind people of how masculine and alpha they are make me chuckle.

But I don’t think they’re saying that a man who is an involved father isn’t masculine. I’d wager that most of the chest thumping men on TAM do think that part of being a good man is being an involved father (who also happens to provide for his family financially with a career outside the home). There is a difference between an involved dad who works outside of the home and a SAHD. I do think SAHDs are automatically feminized and emasculated in the eyes of the chest-thumper. They would never consider being a SAHD themselves because it would be embarrassing to them and a black mark on their macho record. But I’m curious to know how they feel about men who work 60 hours a week and barely ever see their kids because they are working such long hard hours to provide for their families. Are these men doing enough to fulfill the roll of a good dad if the ultimate measure of a husband/father who deserves respect and a faithful wife is being able to financially provide? And if they are ok with the father who basically lives at work do they also give the mother the same sort of lenience or is she looked down on since based on some sort of ancient biological force she’s the sex that’s supposed to be at home physically caring for and nurturing the children? I ask completely genuinely.

I think even amongst the biggest chest-thumpers here we don’t see the worst that the male species has to offer. Most macho alpha masculine guys here have at least a little balance to them. I do know men who pretend to be very secure in their masculinity and alpha status but are in reality so insecure that they won’t wear a pink shirt in fear that it will mark them as not man enough. It’s fine if you don’t like pink or it’s not your shade, but to be so insecure in your manhood that you can’t wear pink? These are the men that I imagine do not make great fathers I’m any capacity.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

I think what might be lost on some folks here when it comes to the SAHD is the "loss" of being a provider for the family as a man. 

Again, I think everyone should do what works for them in their marriage and family. 


I think the majority of men gain a great sense of purpose (I do) from being the provider/protector/security for their family. I also think this is better accomplished when the man goes to work everyday to bring home the income that does provide for the family. 

As a father, I try to be there as much as I possibly can for my kids even though I work full time. In fact, my wife works full time as well, however, she works from home so she has a lot more interaction time with the kids. Our kids get a healthy dose of the feminine from my wife and masculine from me. 

I personally would not feel "correct" if I stayed at home and allowed my wife to be the "provider" for the family. That doesn't sit well with me. I would feel emasculated. I think most men would. I personally feel that is a natural way to feel if a man is not the provider for the household. More power to the men here that do NOT feel that way if they are a SAHD. As such, I would not put down any man that chose this lifestyle. Whatever works for you is great. I think it would be rather weak as a man to put down another who chose to stay at home while their wife was the provider. 

That being said, my experience tells me the situation of the SAHD doesn't look ideal. I know multiple families that have this setup. Most of the wives do not respect the men in these families. I only know of 1 where the respect is still there - and honestly, for all I know, there are other issues going on that caused the respect to drop - but I personally believe it is the unusual dynamic of SAHD that is the underlying issue.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Again, I think everyone should do what works for them in their marriage and family.


While I'm willing to concede that it isn't wrong to be a SAHD and can work out in a healthy way for a limited number of families, I largely agree with you. I appreciate that my husband wants to provide for and protect our family.


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## Cici1990 (Feb 22, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I think what might be lost on some folks here when it comes to the SAHD is the "loss" of being a provider for the family as a man.
> 
> Again, I think everyone should do what works for them in their marriage and family.
> 
> ...


Even though you may have me on ignore, I’ll still say that I think this is a very fair, balanced, and realistic view that I can largely agree with.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I think what might be lost on some folks here when it comes to the SAHD is the "loss" of being a provider for the family as a man.
> I think the majority of men gain a great sense of purpose (I do) from being the provider/protector/security for their family. I also think this is better accomplished when the man goes to work everyday to bring home the income that does provide for the family.
> 
> In fact, my wife works full time as well, however, she works from home so she has a lot more interaction time with the kids.


I get what you are saying and while there is probably a lot of truth to it, I think it is still being a bit shortsighted. We all need to open our eyes and try to not get to myopic in only seeing stereotypes.

Why would a SAHD by necessity not be providing goods and services for the family?

Do we consider SAHMs to be dead weight and essentially provide no value for the home and family other than keeping kids fed and wiping counters and washing dishes????

We need to keep in mind that even men have only “gone-to-work” outside of the home since the dawn of the Industrial Age. 

“Going to work” has only been a blink of the eye in terms of human history.

Prior to the Industrial Age almost all people worked in and around the home as farmers, tradesmen, artisans, craftsmen etc etc. only soldiers and sailors etc were more than a brief walk from the home at any given time. 

Even in hunter gatherer tribes, men may have ventured out to gather meat, but once the meat was obtained, much of the labor and time spent was in processing that meat back at home. 

With the dawn of the agricultural age, families worked together including young children from the time they could walk and perform simple tasks. 

The June and Ward Cleaver than we envision with the housewife and SAHM in an apron,skirt snd heels dusting and sweeping during the day keeping Wally and The Beaver under control until Ward came home from the office to sit in the recliner reading the newspaper only lasted a few seasons in a fictional family that was on TV for 1/2 an hour once a week. 

The rest of the real world and real people found ways to raise children, put food on the table and maintain a home and to pay for it all. People today can do the same. 

I think we need to give more credit to the human spirit and creativity. 

Why are we assuming that a SAHD will not be productive member of the family and not able able to provide more than clean counters and fed children?

Hasn’t there been a major boom in home business and employment from home? 

Are SAHMs dead weight and provide no benefit other than clean diapers and folded underwear and socks? 

If SAHMs can be productive and beneficial members of the family and society, then can’t SAHDs also be productive and viable members of society? Then Can’t a SAHD also find ways to be productive and beneficial beyond feeding kids and tending the dishwasher?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I get what you are saying and while there is probably a lot of truth to it, I think it is still being a bit shortsighted. We all need to open our eyes and try to not get to myopic in only seeing stereotypes.
> 
> Why would a SAHD by necessity not be providing goods and services for the family?
> 
> ...


you make valid points.

call it my biological imperative. Call it my fragile male ego. It’s all the same to me. I’m not going to come on here and lie. That gets nothing accomplished.

I personally would not feel “correct” if I stayed at home to raise my children while relying on my wife to take care of the family financially. I personally would have great difficulty handling this - and I know it to be true when I was out of work for 11 months in 2009. I feel like my purpose is to financially care for my wife and my family regardless of the fact that my wife also works. It’s just the way I am. No need for me to hide it. I don’t feel shame for being this way nor do I think I’m better than any other man for feeling this way. I simply believe that the majority of men probably think along the same lines I do.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that “work is work”. It needs to be done so the family can survive and thrive. Call me more traditional - I just prefer it to be my way, but kudos to those that go against the grain and find something that works for them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I personally would not feel “correct” if I stayed at home to raise my children while relying on my wife to take care of the family financially. I personally would have great difficulty handling this - and I know it to be true when I was out of work for 11 months in 2009. I feel like my purpose is to financially care for my wife and my family regardless of the fact that my wife also works.


Truth be known, I feel much the same as you and it also was how I was raised.

The reason I’ve been raising such a stink in this thread is not to necessarily encourage role reversal, but rather to challenge people’s stereotype thinking and open their minds to other ways of thinking about it. 

You bring up a point to challenge. Why could a man not be able to manage and take responsibility of the family finances just because he’s not the one bringing home the check? 

What’s actually harder, going to an office and filling out TPL Reports and attending boring meetings and getting the direct deposit every two weeks?

Or doing the budgeting and managing the accounts and making the more cost effective purchases and coming up with savings plans and determining where the money will go??

How many breadwinner men do you know that bring home the check to the SAHM to let her do all the budgeting and financial management?

One of my buddies who makes good money has never paid a bill, never set up a savings account or investment or anything. He would bring home the check, hand it to his wife and she’d give him some cash for beer and man-toys etc until the next check. 

Again, are SAHMs financially irrelevant and their role in family financial matters to be dismissed if they aren’t the primary breadwinner. 

Can’t a man have vital financial roles and responsibilities if he’s not the one bringing home the primary check.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Why could a man not be able to manage and take responsibility of the family finances just because he’s not the one bringing home the check?
> 
> What’s actually harder, going to an office and filling out TPL Reports and attending boring meetings and getting the direct deposit every two weeks?
> 
> ...


In fact, isn’t it the women here that are always saying that the money coming into the household is “OUR” money and the marriage is a joint partnership where all resources are pooled together??

Therefor by wive’s own doctrine, anything that she brings in is family money and if marriage is to be a complementary partnership with division of labor and distribution of resources, then the SAHD would have agency in the management, budgeting and distribution of that money.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Truth be known, I feel much the same as you and it also was how I was raised.
> 
> The reason I’ve been raising such a stink in this thread is not to necessarily encourage role reversal, but rather to challenge people’s stereotype thinking and open their minds to other ways of thinking about it.
> 
> ...


Every biological imperative has been shaped by millennia of evolution. Muscles, circulatory system, focus, instinct, desire.... Man goes out, and brings home the high steaks protein and women gather, nurture and makes the "cave" (home) a place worth living for the family. Mess with biological imperatives at the peril of society at large and the family directly.

Stereotypes are born from the observation of simple truths. Social engineering (wokeness) is the willful destruction of stereotypical wisdom with false and unattainable (yet well packaged and propagandized) ideals that sounds noble but are pure detritus as tools to have them accepted by the wider population, up until such time those "woke" are awoken by those who happened to have stayed awake or who has woken up to the lies of wokeness.

Feminized men and masculine women would never sustain a civilization and role reversal creates a cognitive dissonance which causes misery because it stands at odds with biology. Millenia of evolution can not be undone and replaced with made up ideology, no matter how good or evil the intent.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Truth be known, I feel much the same as you and it also was how I was raised.
> 
> The reason I’ve been raising such a stink in this thread is not to necessarily encourage role reversal, but rather to challenge people’s stereotype thinking and open their minds to other ways of thinking about it.
> 
> ...


More good points.

I cannot speak to the way other people run their households financially. I've never actually asked anyone. All I know is that I am unusual in this regard (or so I've been told). 


No one budgets my money except for ME. Period. That will never change. 

My wife and I have been together in a relationship for 20 years. Married 14. We've never had a joint account - in anything. It will never happen. People would say "well you don't trust your wife", and they would be correct. I don't fully trust anyone. I never have. I trust me. That's it. I consider myself a pretty good judge of character, but I do make mistakes from time to time and trust the wrong people that end up biting me in the ass later. Call me crazy, that's just me. My wife had some debt issues in college. I'm type of guy that gives people 1 chance. Sometimes I'm feeling generous and give two chances. For the most part, that is rare and people are only afforded one chance from me. She has grown leaps and bounds since those early days when it comes to financial responsibility. Doesn't matter. I will take care of my pay check and how it is spent. 

The only thing that actually has both of our names on it is the house. When either one of us need a new car, we go and buy it - with the money that came out of our own salaries. We will discuss what kind of car is needed (as in, when our twins were born I needed a new car as a sports car doesn't exactly work), but then it becomes my decision on what I want once seating is available for the kids. We never discuss anything we are buying for ourselves. I've always laughed at the jokes of the husband who has to "ask permission from his wife to go buy a new bike/gun/car/4-wheeler". That doesn't happen in my house. I go buy what I want, when I want. I do not need permission. Reason being, my wife knows my fiscal responsibility and I know hers. Are the lights on? Is the heat on? Is the house in good shape? Are the kids fed? Do they have all of their needs met? Do we max out our savings in our 401k's? If the answer to this is "yes", it doesn't matter what new toy I bring home. Questions will not be asked and the same goes for her. If it is something that is multiple thousands like a car, I will tell my wife out of respect for her that I am planning on dumping multiple thousands on a new car and here is the reason why, but it pretty much ends there. 

I take care of all the bills. I have for 19 years now (we've been living together since about the first year of dating). I split up the money she owes me weighted on our current salaries. This has worked out pretty well for us since we've been together. I know this is unorthodox, but so is SAHD. My financial system works extremely well for me even though it isn't the usual. Some people may work well in a relationship with a SAHD even though it isn't the usual. Who am I to say they can't make it work? I make an unorthodox system work in my house so I know it is entirely possible to make another unorthodox system work.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> More good points.
> 
> I cannot speak to the way other people run their households financially. I've never actually asked anyone. All I know is that I am unusual in this regard (or so I've been told).
> 
> ...


Much the same as me. 

My wife and I have very similar incomes. We have a joint house account that the mortgage and house insurance comes out of that we each put an equal amount into each month.

Otherwise we maintain completely separate accounts and credit cards and car payments etc. 

We do not ask “Mother-May-I?”. We are both financially responsible adults. She can buy whatever shoes and handbags she wants and I can buy whatever guns or motorcycles I want. 

In fact, the last motorcycle I bought, she didn’t even notice I had gotten a new one until I had it a week or two even though it was parked right there in the garage. 

Some people think that is awful and not what a “real marriage” is. Some say we are destined for doom. ....yet here we are 26 years later. 

Just as some don’t think a SAHD is right or can work... but for some it works fine. 

My point in all of this is people can be creative and adaptable and can overcome if they do the work. 

I don’t believe in “can’t” and I don’t believe people working in good faith with due diligence will ever truly fail.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Much the same as me.
> 
> My wife and I have very similar incomes. We have a joint house account that the mortgage and house insurance comes out of that we each put an equal amount into each month.
> 
> ...



LoL. Sounds like we are pretty much on the same page - even down to the same feelings of we both desire to be the provider for the family even though it can work in a different way - and there are people that do in fact make it work.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Dictum Veritas said:


> Every biological imperative has been shaped by millennia of evolution. Muscles, circulatory system, focus, instinct, desire.... Man goes out, and brings home the high steaks protein and women gather, nurture and makes the "cave" (home) a place worth living for the family. Mess with biological imperatives at the peril of society at large and the family directly.
> 
> Stereotypes are born from the observation of simple truths. Social engineering (wokeness) is the willful destruction of stereotypical wisdom with false and unattainable (yet well packaged and propagandized) ideals that sounds noble but are pure detritus as tools to have them accepted by the wider population, up until such time those "woke" are awoken by those who happened to have stayed awake or who has woken up to the lies of wokeness.
> 
> Feminized men and masculine women would never sustain a civilization and role reversal creates a cognitive dissonance which causes misery because it stands at odds with biology. Millenia of evolution can not be undone and replaced with made up ideology, no matter how good or evil the intent.


But yet we’ve somehow learned to poop in toilets and use toilet paper. 

There’s no bigger fan of evo psyche than me but we are still sentient beings with a developed cerebral cortex that can reason and rationalize on multiple levels. 

We’re not slaves to ancestor’s past or to any residual instincts. We may be creatures of the earth but we aren’t beasts in the field. 

We can acknowledge our ancestral past and understand how that may influence and impact some of our thoughts and responses, but we can also use that knowledge to mitigate and even prevent issues that may arise from stepping outside the path of our primal ancestors. 

When people were developing steam engines for railroad trains, the “experts” said the human body could not withstand a speed over 60 mph and that our bodies would be torn to shreds by the inertia. 

150 years ago, powered flight was silence fiction. 

100 years ago, German scientists began thinking we could create engines that could power a craft outside of the earth’s atmosphere and people thought they were crazy. 

50 years ago even the imagination of Gene Roddenberry didn’t imagine Captain Kirk’s communicator being more than a compact walkie talkie and now here we are having this discussion on our phones. 

You’re shortchanging the human spirit and creativity and ability to adapt and overcome. 

Most men simply don’t want to be SAHDs (I sure don’t!) and would do just about anything to avoid it. 

But it is short sighted and narrow minded to think that they can’t or that the sky will inevitably fall if they do. That’s just being simple minded. 

And it’s downright bigoted and chauvinistic to assume that a SAHD is inevitably a lesser man or effeminate or a simp etc. 

If we are going to insist things can’t change because of how they did it on the plains of Africa eons ago, then we’ll Still need to be eating bugs and rats and throwing poop at each other. 

Evolution didn’t end. It’s still ongoing. And if ideology and public consciousness can’t change our behavior, then how do you explain restrooms and toilets and toilet paper??? 

By your logic, shouldn’t we be pooping on the ground where we stand?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> But yet we’ve somehow learned to poop in toilets and use toilet paper.
> 
> There’s no bigger fan of evo psyche than me but we are still sentient beings with a developed cerebral cortex that can reason and rationalize on multiple levels.
> 
> ...


No we shouldn't be pooping on the ground. Everything you mentioned here is a technological advancement that improved on existing human functions and made them better. None of them actually changed our biological functions. We learned that pooping in the street lead to wide spread sickness, so we solved that with technological advancement. The idea of the father being the primary caregiver of the children goes against our biology. Woman bear children, men can't. Woman breast feed their children, men can't. Both mother and father should absolutely be fully engaged in raising their kids, but I think we would need change on an evolutionary scale before men are commonly raising the kids as their full time job.

Don't underestimate the power of our biology and remnants of instincts that kept us alive in the wild thousands of years ago. If we mastered control of them there wouldn't be rampant infidelity, crime, etc.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Dictum Veritas said:


> Every biological imperative has been shaped by millennia of evolution. Muscles, circulatory system, focus, instinct, desire.... Man goes out, and brings home the high steaks protein and women gather, nurture and makes the "cave" (home) a place worth living for the family. Mess with biological imperatives at the peril of society at large and the family directly.
> 
> Stereotypes are born from the observation of simple truths. Social engineering (wokeness) is the willful destruction of stereotypical wisdom with false and unattainable (yet well packaged and propagandized) ideals that sounds noble but are pure detritus as tools to have them accepted by the wider population, up until such time those "woke" are awoken by those who happened to have stayed awake or who has woken up to the lies of wokeness.
> 
> Feminized men and masculine women would never sustain a civilization and role reversal creates a cognitive dissonance which causes misery because it stands at odds with biology. Millenia of evolution can not be undone and replaced with made up ideology, no matter how good or evil the intent.


Some of us can recall assurances that biology demanded women be SAHMs and our society would perish if we disobeyed it, and your argument sounds awfully familiar. FTR, I think we are better off w/ women having choices.

As for stereotypes, some do have a kernel of truth but I hope you'd agree stereotypes have done a lot of harm.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The idea of the father being the primary caregiver of the children goes against our biology. Woman bear children, men can't. Woman breast feed their children, men can't. Both mother and father should absolutely be fully engaged in raising their kids, but I think we would need change on an evolutionary scale before men are commonly raising the kids as their full time job.
> 
> Don't underestimate the power of our biology and remnants of instincts that kept us alive in the wild thousands of years ago. If we mastered control of them there wouldn't be rampant infidelity, crime, etc.


Does it really go against our biology or does it go against our social programming, sense of masculinity and ego?? 

Now yes, females are the ones that carry, deliver and nurse babies. 

And for that reason, I don’t foresee a large scale change in family dynamics in regards to infants. 

But Once a child has weaned or become bottle fed, there is no longer a biological reason a male can’t care for that child. 

After that point it is social convention that says the man must go to work and cannot serve well in the role of child care giver.

Social convention has also said that women can’t fight fires, enforce the law, be physicians, be clergy, drive cars, fly airplanes, build buildings etc etc

If we can have female astronauts and female fighter pilots, I think men can learn to prepare bottles and change diapers. I don’t think our biology is so restrictive that it can’t allow that.

In fact if my memory serves me correctly, I think I remember preparing some bottles and changing some diapers myself. Yes I believe I did and my kids are now healthy and vigorous 17 and 19 year olds. They didn’t die, the oceans didn’t boil and the sky did not fall. 

So I am not buying the biology theory here. We aren’t so fragile and unadaptable as a species that a man can’t learn to feed and clothe a child. 

Most men simply don’t want to. A lot of men appear to have such fragile egos and sense of their own worth and masculinity that they feel threatened and emasculated by the very thought of it. 

If a guy can’t feed and clothe and care for a child without losing his masculinity and sense of being a man, then IMHO he is a *****. 

So don’t give me biology arguments. Just say you don’t want to do it. I get that because I didnt want to be a SAHD either. I preferred to go to work and deal drunks and psychos and shootings and train wrecks and plane crashes rather than change diapers and clean up baby puke full time,, but it didn’t have anything to do with my biology or my capabilities as a functional adult human. 

People are hiding behind the biology argument here to either hide the fact they just don’t want to do it or to protect their fragile egos. 

Biology Ppffftttt


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now I’m not saying that our biology doesn’t exist or that it doesn’t influence us.

I’m saying it doesn’t prevent us from men from being a viable parent and it doesn’t prevent women from being a viable breadwinner.

We are more adaptable and capable than that.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Does it really go against our biology or does it go against our social programming, sense of masculinity and ego??
> 
> Now yes, females are the ones that carry, deliver and nurse babies.
> 
> ...


Of course we can, we just don't want to and if we had to then there would be no more children and Earth would be desolated.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Of course we can, we just don't want to and if we had to then there would be no more children and Earth would be desolated.


Now that I will agree with 😆


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Now that I will agree with 😆


I mean babies are cute but not that cute. Women can somehow look past the poop, vomit and tantrums, so it has to be more biological than rational. The woman's biological clock ain't no joke!


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Does it really go against our biology or does it go against our social programming, sense of masculinity and ego??
> ...
> 
> People are hiding behind the biology argument here to either hide the fact they just don’t want to do it or to protect their fragile egos.
> ...


For that matter, what difference does it make? If we decided there is some evolutionary basis for a behavior, does that mean we should keep doing it? It is likely that craving for high fat foods, and lots of them, was an advantage for most of our history when food, particularly high fat food, was scarce, but now heart disease is the leading cause of death.

Fortunately, "biology" has given us the ability to counter instincts w/ deduction.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I mean babies are cute but not that cute. Women can somehow look past the poop, vomit and tantrums, so it has to be more biological than rational. The woman's biological clock ain't no joke!


I suspect that goes back to biology. That pooping, spewing and scream baby came from inside her.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Does it really go against our biology or does it go against our social programming, sense of masculinity and ego??
> 
> Now yes, females are the ones that carry, deliver and nurse babies.
> 
> ...


Agree here...

I'm as much of a "man's man as anyone, but had no problem's with all the so called traditional women's role in child rearing...I changed her almost as often as her mother did, I bottle fed her, cared for her when she was sick, regularly bathed and clothed her, put her to sleep in my arms...everything...It's not that difficult, but to be fair, my kid was an extraordinarily easy child...She never fussed about anything, thank God...

In my case, it was merely the fact that i made exponentially more than she ever could....It just wouldn't have made any sense...I do think, in general, women have more tolerance and patience when it comes to kids...It would be interesting to see what would have been if my kid was rambunctious, sickly, etc...That takes a parenting to an entirely different level...

The other aspect is you often see how women have no issue taking care of other women's kids and infants....That's an area where I think a guy comes up short...I don't see any guys necessarily capable of that...


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I mean babies are cute but not that cute.


Babies are the best! 🤗 

My ex-husband would've been a very good stay at home dad. He was much more nurturing than me.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I mean babies are cute but not that cute. Women can somehow look past the poop, vomit and tantrums, so it has to be more biological than rational. The woman's biological clock ain't no joke!


My wife has said many times that baby poop smells sweet to her, which is so weird to me because I damn near need a hazmat suit


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Agree here...
> 
> I'm as much of a "man's man as anyone, but had no problem's with all the so called traditional women's role in child rearing...I changed her almost as often as her mother did, I bottle fed her, cared for her when she was sick, regularly bathed and clothed her, put her to sleep in my arms...everything...It's not that difficult, but to be fair, my kid was an extraordinarily easy child...She never fussed about anything, thank God...
> 
> ...


I spent tons of sleepless nights feeding babies, changing diapers and I have always been heavily involved in raising my children. I'm not saying that isn't the way it should be, but one parent is always going to be the primary caregiver and it seems natural for that to go to the one that bears the children. It is their natural instinct.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I spent tons of sleepless nights feeding babies, changing diapers and I have always been heavily involved in raising my children. I'm not saying that isn't the way it should be, but one parent is always going to be the primary caregiver and it seems natural for that to go to the one that bears the children. It is their natural instinct.



Ok....

Sure...but how much of it is really all about economics??

Women are crushing men in the last few decades, in terms of education level and earning power...That wasn't the case in my generation...Women are now in many cases, making far more money than their husbands...

So perhaps it's more about pure economics....If a woman is making far more and has a better career than the guy, this is likely the reason for this 'change" in dynamics when it comes to who is staying home with the kids...


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm not saying that isn't the way it should be, but one parent is always going to be the primary caregiver and* it seems natural* for that to go to the one that bears the children. *It is their natural instinct.*


It's as natural as monogamy. 😂


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