# Untrusting fiance, left me



## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

OK. So I am looking for some help. I have been in a relationship with a woman who I truly and absolutely love beyond belief.

Her life is filled with betrayal and cheating. Her exhusband cheated on her when her 2nd child was 2 years old, with her cousin. He is now married to her cousin with thier own kids. The cousin is her mom's niece.

Her parents are divorced and remarried. During the time of thier relationship, there were times of infidelity by her dad and strife and struggle.

Her family members are pigs. Have wives and children and mistresses and other children. Her brother is a pig, having multiple women.

Overall, a life filled with cheating.

We were together for 8 years. Engaged for 2. Over the 8 years, she has stated to me multiple times that "all men cheat, ALL MEN:, insinuating me as well. She has also sabotaged our relationship multiple times, breaking up many times for silly reasons (I am not nice enough to people, Her daughters are not happy, She is not happy - but not saying why) All the while, always telling me she loves me and is in love with me. She even broke our engagement 6 months back and gave me a list of things I had to change in order for us to be together, just as all times in the past.

I have sacrificed and given all that I am for this. Taken her places and showing her things she has never experienced. Most of all, love and compassion and a willingness to never leave her.

Most recently, she took my cellphone and riffled through my phone. She heard 2 messages from 2 women. 1 woman saying "hey dave, you never answer your phone when I call and you never return my calls". This was a woman who I met and WAS BECAME FRIENDS WITH when my fiance gave me the ring back and told me she did not want to marry me. When my fiance and I reconsiled, I told the other girl the same. She insisted that I was stupid, etc.. But I tried to be respectful.
In the 2nd message, it was a realtor who I had some discussions with about real estate and the realty industry. Her message was "Hey. It is X. I have a 4 day weekend coming and if you want to get together, let me know". Since we live 300 miles apart yet have a common area we are from, the message was to meet over the holiday weekend to chat about real estate, etc... provided I was going to be in the area. I have NEVER met the woman, EVER still to this day!

So, my fiance came to me and said, "How long have you been cheating on me! It is over and I never want to see you again. Forget you know me!" I was shocked but my reaction was swift. I told her if that is what\how she wanted to act and think, to give me the ring back because I am not a cheater. She never let me explain anything. She even called the realty woman and the realty woman told her that she did not know me and to please not call again and hung up the phone.

My fiance blocked my phone number from calling her, does not answer the door, told everyone in her family that I am a cheater and a liar. The fact that I reacted how I did, the woman says she does not know me are proof that I am a liar and a cheater...

Also, in the past I have tried to talk with her and get her to go to counselling together and alone. She refused. She went to 2 sessions on her own and she stopped, telling me that the counselor told her that "she is fine, people just have to accept her for who she is."

Then on Valentine's day. She had class that ends at 9:30. She showed up at 11pm. (We are neighbors so I see her coming and going) I approached her and told her that it was interesting that I am a cheater but she has time to be out with whoever on Valentine's day. I know it was not the best thing to do, but I am struggling and just acted out.

Bottom line is that I do not know what is happening or what to do. I was thinking of taking a polygraph to prove my innocense but feel it wrong to have to prove I am innocent when my actions over 8 years should show all that is needed. I have never acted any way other than dedicated and wanting\needing her in my life. All my friends have always told me that I am the best man a woman could ever want and that she is simply psychotic and crazy.

I love her. I just want to be with her but do not even know how to start to talk with her... She agreed to speak with me this Friday, but it was my request for atleast 5 minutes based solely on getting the truth out and talking for the sake of her, I, the kids and everyone else. She agreed to Friday, but it was not her idea...

I am lost. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions?


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I understand what she's going through, I have a friend exactly like this.

If you really care about her, pour your heart out on Friday. Tell her you're willing to do anything to prove you're innocent even if it means taking a polygraph. Tell her all the things you've done for her, how you've stuck by her side despite her dumping you for petty reasons and making a list of unreasonable demands of which you've all complied with. Tell her most men would've left her a very long time ago but your loyalty proves you're not a cheater. Pretty much tell her everything you've written here.

If she's still stubborn then you should move on. Trust is a fundamental part of a relationship, if she can't give it, you're heading for a very rocky marriage.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm sorry but from your description it doesn't sound like this woman is anywhere ready to be involved in a committed relationship. She has serious trust issues which she has not addressed and steadfastly refuses to resolve.

You can either accept her the way that she is and suffer, OR you can end your relationship with her and move on with your life. The choice is yours.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I understand what she's going through, I have a friend exactly like this.
> 
> If you really care about her, pour your heart out on Friday. Tell her you're willing to do anything to prove you're innocent even if it means taking a polygraph. Tell her all the things you've done for her, how you've stuck by her side despite her dumping you for petty reasons and making a list of unreasonable demands of which you've all complied with. Tell her most men would've left her a very long time ago but your loyalty proves you're not a cheater. Pretty much tell her everything you've written here.
> 
> If she's still stubborn then you should move on. Trust is a fundamental part of a relationship, if she can't give it, you're heading for a very rocky marriage.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Tell as above, if she understand you then go for MC. Talk to her about your feelings and worries. 
If she is still stubborn then move on man.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

You are in an abusive relationship if you haven;t noticed already. And remember, cheaters project their paranoia on their SO's. And her family history does not do her any favor. I would be little suspicious if I were you.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Sorry, that is difficult.

Her behavior has nothing to do with you and the only thing you can do is keep your side of the street clean. 

I would suggest Robert Glover's book, No More Mr. Nice Guy. I think light bulbs will go off in your head.

Good luck.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> Sorry, that is difficult.
> 
> Her behavior has nothing to do with you and the only thing you can do is keep your side of the street clean.
> 
> ...


And make her take a poly too.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Pretty much everything you posted is able to be addressed, except for this:



hopeless11 said:


> she stopped, telling me that the counselor told her that "she is fine, people just have to accept her for who she is."


That is a major problem, an insurmountable one. She is unwilling to change. You know what that means? She won't change. And she will get worse in a married relationship, because the more committed the relationship the higher the potential for betrayal. She is so afraid of being abandoned and betrayed that she feels more and more pressure the more she has to lose. In other words, the more you try to show her your love and commitment, the more it will trigger a response from her of fear and paranoia. She will push you away and cheat so that she can try to stop herself from being hurt (she will also be hurt, but she will feel in control). 

If you really love her, break up with her and try to help her get through her abandonment issue. If she ever gets the strength and courage to fully face it and break through, then propose. Right now, the more you try to show her your love the more she will push you away and ruin the relationship. There will be a direct correlation. She needs you as a friend and confidant, not as a lover.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

That's a great suggestion. Suggest polygraphs for the two of you. I would also suggest a prenup saying that if EITHER of you cheat you walk away with nothing.

That said I think continuing in a relationship with this woman is a mistake. She needs counseling.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

You may be dodging a bullet here.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> You are in an abusive relationship if you haven;t noticed already. And remember, cheaters project their paranoia on their SO's. And her family history does not do her any favor. I would be little suspicious if I were you.


I 100% agree. 

You are assuming that she isn't in fact cheating, when she very well might be!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Cancel your meeting on Friday and thank your lucky stars that you didn't end up shackled to a crazy woman through married and/or paternity.

If this woman grew up around infidelity, the odds of her cheating go way up. Also, do you really want to spend each Thanksgiving trying to remember the name of the new spouses/lovers that have been introduced into the family?

Better luck next time.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> I 100% agree.
> 
> You are assuming that she isn't in fact cheating, when she very well might be!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Even if she wasn't cheating, the abusive nature of the relationship should be a very major problem


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

Thank you for all the responses that are coming in.

So far I understand that I should end the relationship (although technically she already did).

I am not crazy to think that she has a problem due to her life experiences, as she wanted me to believe I was indeed crazy and I only wanted to use the discussion as a way to manipulate and turn things around on her.

She may indeed be projecting her infidelity. ---> That is a hard one to take in, but it could be a reality I guess. 

Polygraph - I am on the fence on that one. If I take it, then it will slam the door on my ability to trust her again. Only because I feel it is proof that I can not receive trust from her, even when no reason exists to the contrary. I am not scared of my results. I am scared of what the action to have to do it to begin with, will do to me.

QUICK UPDATE:
I did run into her briefly on the street. I just looked at her and told her that I never cheated on her, I never wanted to be with anyone else. I always wanted to be with her forever and I am hurt because I feel she is already with someone else and that is why she comes home hours after the normal time on Valentine's day even though she always told me that she could not spend time together with me after class because she was tired and had to work the next day, etc...

She looked at me and said, "I do not believe you. You obviously have time to speak with other people and make other friends. You obviously have time for them. I was in class on Valentine's day. We will just talk on Friday. I will come to your house... Bye..." and she walked into her house....

She did NOT defend whether she was or was not with someone else. She clearly stated to me that she does not believe me. She clearly does not want to have anything to do with me because she blocked my phone number and does not respond to me. She did not acknowledge that I sent her flowers on Valentine's day at all..

WHAT THE HELL AM I MISSING??? Is she just twisted due to her past? Is she projecting? Both? Neither?? What??? I just want to be with her and happy...


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. 

She's not going to ever believe you. 

Even if she comes back this time, it's only a matter of time before it happens again, and again.

I can see why a jealous mistrusting person would have a problem with a woman calling you and asking if you want to get together over a 4 day weekend. Sounds to me like that "realtor" woman was looking for more than just a discussion about property.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

hisfac said:


> You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
> 
> She's not going to ever believe you.
> 
> ...


Point taken. 

To clarify. The realtor actually invited me to church with her and her family after a discussion about reliogion that was sparked by her telling me that she has a busy schedule with church functions, volunteering, etc... That does not mean anyone is a Saint but given we had never met and we only communicated a few times, I can assure everyone that it was nothing more than that.


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

Then don't sugar coat it when you speak to her. It was a woman you had contact with in the past who might have been looking for something more but you were not going there.

Once you say "it was only to talk about real estate" it becomes a lie and she sees right through it and suspects something more and that's not completely unreasonable.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

hisfac said:


> Then don't sugar coat it when you speak to her. It was a woman you had contact with in the past who might have been looking for something more but you were not going there.
> 
> Once you say "it was only to talk about real estate" it becomes a lie and she sees right through it and suspects something more and that's not completely unreasonable.


The woman did not want more and neither did I. If that were the case, I would say so but telling someone something that is more than what is truthful does not make sense to me. It is not a lie that we only had communication because of my desire to know about real estate, etc.. If I call the DMV to ask about a license and someone shares with me something semi-personal, does that mean that it is more somehow? 

That confuses me.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

hopeless11 said:


> thank you for all the responses that are coming in.
> 
> So far i understand that i should end the relationship (although technically she already did).
> 
> ...


bump


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

You said "it doesnt mean anyone is a Saint" which to me, inferred that one or both of you were possibly thinking it could lead to something more.

If that's the case, then I'd put it out there, I am not suggesting you fabricate something to make it more believable because she suspects something, just don't downplay it to being strictly business if there was the possibility, however small, of it being a doorway to something more.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

She's being unreasonable. If I were you I'd cancel Friday's meeting.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

Ok. Sorry. No I meant that just because someone is religious or goes to church, does not mean that is a defense. I was just saying that the conversation about church and her family proved to me, if there was any doubt, that she was never unprofessional nor looking for more.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

hopeless11 said:


> WHAT THE HELL AM I MISSING??? Is she just twisted due to her past? Is she projecting? Both? Neither?? What???


She may be cheating and wants to place blame on you so you look like the bad guy. That way when other people see her with an OM she can say you cheated first. She doesn't WANT to believe you because she would look bad if she was wrong. 

I had an ex like that, accused me of cheating even if I glanced at another girl's location. I found out she was screwing every guy this side of the Mississippi.



> I just want to be with her and happy...


That's not going to happen....ever.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

hopeless11 said:


> OK. So I am looking for some help. I have been in a relationship with a woman who I truly and absolutely love beyond belief.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I am lost. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions?


hopeless11-

You are getting good advice from everybody who has responded, ranging from getting polygraphs together all the way to running away from this damaged woman.

I seem to have come a little late to the party, but I wanted to add some observations.

You say you are crazy in love with her, but then you don't give any specific reasons or behaviors that she does that cause your affection.

You describe her family history as being extremely unstable. No matter how screwed up it looks from the outside, keep in mind that to her, it is the standard by which "normal" is defined.

Warlock's comment that you are in an abusive relationship is dead nuts accurate. You should read that a million more times or so. Note that you are the one being abused, BTW.

You are presenting yourself as a codependent person, and a beta male at the same time. This is a terrible combination of traits to build any kind of healthy relationship on. Especially with an abusive, unstable woman.

You are not going to change her. Begging her for "5 minutes to talk on Friday" is not going to make her suddenly realize that you're a great guy who she can trust.

Again, you can take any advice offered here, but I would take the advice of "do the 180 starting today, and thank God you don't have any kids with this woman." You've wasted 8 years of your life on a poor choice of partners, but you still have plenty of time to make a better choice.

Good luck!


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

NotLikeYou said:


> hopeless11-
> 
> You are getting good advice from everybody who has responded, ranging from getting polygraphs together all the way to running away from this damaged woman.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the message an observation and analysis.

Why do I love her? I do not know, I just do. We are very much alike socially in the things we like to do, our views on topics (outside of fidelity\trust). When I am around her, I feel love for her and I just can not say why exactly. She provides some support in the form of daily life things and we can spend a day alone with no cares about anything else in the world around us. It is only when serious or personal items come up that there begins the problem. (This is just what another post said, "..the closer you get, the further she will run...." I am not overly alpha nor extremely beta either. With her, however, I am completely beta. Yes, I agree. She just has something over me. I do not know what it is in reality. Maybe that is a wrong way to define love, but when you can not explain it, that means something good, right?

I know conditioning is what causes her to see "normal" but she had stated to me over time that "all men cheat" and then said, that is why I will never be with a latino man again (she is latina). She says she does not want that life, but it is obvious that she does not know what it would look like, even when it was in front of her for 8+ years!

I know I am in an abusive relationship and may truly be co-dependant to an extent, but I feel like I am abandoning her if I give up or leave her side vs. sticking by her and trying to help her see. I know that I am like the dog who has been abused and beaten. Even they come back to those who beat them because they love thier abusers. (I am not an animal, it is more of a parallel that I am trying to make).

I will also add that she is that way towards everyone. Her family always comment and laugh that "oh that is just how she is...". Other times I have had her mom come to me and apologize to me for my fiances actions and also tell me that she does have a problem.. yet, they never tell her straight up to go fix it. They just sit there as though they are scared to say anything.. We do not have biological children, however, we do have 2 girls who I consider my children since I have helped raise them. We also have a dog that we treat like a child. Point is that there are others to consider here and I feel like walking away is also walking away from them and I promised myself that I would never walk out like their father did. Her youngest is closer to me than her own mom. She told me a few months back that she told me that no one loves her. Her oldest went to a school counselor a few months ago and said she wanted to kill herself because she left worthless and not loved...

How do I give up on everyone?


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

While I am putting out everything. Here is the email from today, regarding meeting on Friday.

To her:
Can you tell me why you want to talk on Friday? I know my reasons, but based on what I have in front of me now and your actions and statements, I do not know what you want out of the discussion. 
It is only a question. Thanks.

Back to me:
Because you asked me to talk to you... but i would also like to tell you how i feel.

Back to her:
Ok. So, your outcome is to give your last parting words then or is there more? I am just trying to understand your side. 

Back to me:
Yes. There will be no reconciliation. If that is what you thought would happen and dont want to talk anymore just let me know and give me my things back. 

Back to her:
I had no thoughts of anything either way and never insinuated otherwise. I asked you your motives not your position. I wanted to know if it was more than just a way to get your things back and be hateful. It that wrong too?

Then... nothing more....


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## tm84 (Jul 24, 2011)

You keep banging your head agains the wall, so don't wonder why you have a headache. 

You've already gotten a lot of good advice and I'm going to also recommend cancelling the meeting tomorrow, give her whatever things are hers and begin the process of letting her go. In fact, I would leave her things on her front step or porch. She has already indicated that there will be no reconciliation, so what's the point of putting yourself through more misery? 

If you're trying to figure out the "why's", you are not going to get any answer from her that will really suffice. It's time to let it go and get on with your life. Find someone with whom you can be happy with because your fiance is not in a place for a committed relationship.

Take her at her word. It's over. Time to move on.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I think the OP likes the IDEA of this woman...but not the woman.

Move on, find your ideal and be happy


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

hopeless11 said:


> I know I am in an abusive relationship and may truly be co-dependant to an extent, but I feel like I am abandoning her if I give up or leave her side vs. sticking by her and trying to help her see. I know that I am like the dog who has been abused and beaten. Even they come back to those who beat them because they love thier abusers. (I am not an animal, it is more of a parallel that I am trying to make).


Sounds a little like Stockholm Syndrome. 

She's basically just testing you. But they're fairly extreme tests. If she hasn't cheated she will, because she will go as far as she can to test your commitment to her. The problem is, in doing so she destroys the relationship herself and in the end is left with nothing. She is doing all of this out of knee-jerk insecurity. I don't think she really wants to act this way, but she doesn't know what else to do. I don't think you can help her, though. Only God can.

Here's the tricky thing: she will try to get you back at some point. She may get very sexual, or she may be weird and aggressive, or she may just bump into you every so often and throw her personal life in your face to "let you know what you're missing". But it's coming. Brace yourself.


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

hopeless11 said:


> Yes. There will be no reconciliation. If that is what you thought would happen and dont want to talk anymore just let me know and give me my things back.


Her mind is made up, I suggest you cancel the meeting and return her things to her. 

Seems to me like it's an overblown temper tantrum but she's not in a place where she's going to listen to anything you have to say no matter how hard you try to convince/beg/reassure her, etc. 

She's gotta figure it out and come looking for you if there's any chance of it working. 

You're going to have to let her go, she's given you no choice.


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

She is looking for a self fulfilling prophecy and unless you are up for an entire lifetime of fulfilling her prophecy I would move on.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Don't meet her, tell her you are not excited about the concept of subjecting yourself to further abuse. Tell her, you believe I cheated. Leave it at that. Close with this. 

*"One way or another we're over. If you're right I'm a cheater and you're better off without me. And if I'm right, I'm better off without you because your broken and a complete nut job."*

Maybe this will clear things up for her a little.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

A wise man once asked: "Would you rather be happy-or right?"

Sounds like you'd rather be happy-sounds like she'd rather be right.

Sounds like if she had a bucket list, #1 would be "Prove to everyone that EVERY man cheats." 

#2 would be "If a woman proves that her man is faithful, keep haranguing her with #1 until she wakes up and sees the truth".


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

I met with her.....

I read her a letter that I wrote about our entire relationship. I told her everything I thought, felt, saw, etc... I explained my feelings, my thoughts and told her that her issues are not mine any longer. I explained that I loved her, I was never unfaithful and that I did not want to hurt any more for things I have no control over. I told her that the fact she broke up with me 14x over 7 years would have been enough for anyone to not be together. Interestingly enough, she said "You actually counted them all...why?"

She listened to it all. She then sat there, not crying but obviously sad. Then she started in directly with questions about the women.

I told her 
- The realtor is a realtor. To this day, never met her.
- The other girl was a girl I met AFTER my fiance gave me the ring back months ago and before we had reconciled. I met her at the mall, spoke with her on the phone but never met her again (we live 200 miles apart) I explained that as a talker, I love to talk and the woman was someone who would listen. I also explained that I told the girl that I was working things out with my fiance and that it was not appropriate to continue to talk. That the girl called me stupid and that I deserved better, etc.... That the girl continues to call me from time to time because she is convinced that it will not work out and that I should date her... (sorry, there are crazy people out there and probably the reason she kinda ambushed me in the mall where I met her to begin with.. I do not know... I can not speak for others actions)

My fiance said "So, you had phone sex with her.. so, you just run to another woman a week after we break up.. so, you just go out and pick up anyone at any time....oh, you were so hurt by us breaking up but it was sooo easy for you to just go out and fxxx someone else" " you expect me to believe that some woman will just keep calling you after you tell her that we are back together, even though you do not call her or talk to her again..." I told her absolutely not! Which is the truth!

Then she simply said, "You are a liar and I do not believe you..." She started to cry and tell me that she was never with anyone else, that she was in the relationship for 8 years as well, that she loves me but can never be with me again.. She told me that talking with a woman, DURING A TIME AFTER SHE GAVE ME THE RING BACK AND DID NOT WANT TO MARRY ME, is cheating....

She threw in my face the fact that I went to a strip club with HER BROTHERS FOR HER BROTHERS BATCHELOR PARTY in my face and told me that she had told me that was cheating as well!

We left it with her having to leave to go pick up her daughter. We hugged and she started crying. I balled like a little kid..

What now? She does not admit to problems. In fact, she says she does not have a problem at all!! She does not believe me even though I told her everything. She is inventing and painting things in her mind... I get that....

What I want is for her to accept that I am being honest and have shared it all so that we can start at zero. It may never be a relationship again, but getting back peace in the form of seeing our dog, speaking with her, speaking with the kids and her parents is what I would like to get it. I want her to accept that we should go to couseling together for our FRIENDSHIP....

How do I get that??

I do feel better after we talked. I do not know if it is closure or a false hope that I do not recognize. Either way, I will sleep tonight I guess that is good for now.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

My heart goes out to you but the sad fact is that your ex is a woman with trust issues and no matter what you do, she will never trust you. I know it is easy for me and others here to say that you should move on but it is for the best, for the two of you. Feel free to vent my friend.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

I read that people overcome infidelity. I approach this as though that is what I must do.

I already told her that I am going to take a polygraph to prove it to her.

Am I just wasting me time and money? Is that a good place to start at all? 

What is most heart-wrenching is that she seemed to have more sadness than she ever did when we were ever together and she broke up with me any one of the 14x....

I do not want to lose her. I love her.

ANyone?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

But if you haven't committed infidelity against your fiancee then why are you so willing to go to such lengths?

I hate acting like the snake in the garden but are you sure that your fiancee is not projecting any infidelity on her part?


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

morituri said:


> But if you haven't committed infidelity against your fiancee then why are you so willing to go to such lengths?
> 
> I hate acting like the snake in the garden but are you sure that your fiancee is not projecting any infidelity on her part?


I asked her and she said no.

I am willing to go such lengths because I just do not want to walk away, even though I will probably have to do so.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Read THIS, please. And maybe some other stuff about co-dependency.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Even if you take a poly and pass with flying colors, she'll just accuse you of knowing how to beat the test or bribing the examiner to falsify the records.

And even if you do break up with her for good, get FAR AWAY from her-judging by her actions and accusations, she will go bunny boiling stalker on you.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

From my perspective,it seems like her self-protective instincts are triggered when situations arise that are similar to ones that she has seen leading to infidelity through out her life.Her only touchstone is that people cheat.Children living in the turmoil of infidelity,or for that matter any kind of harsh conflict take their cues from the adults around them in order to protect themselves.

She needs help from a professional to work through her trust issues.I hope you stand by her if you can.She'll probably cycle through this same scenario for the rest of her life if she doesn't get the help she needs.

I'm so sorry for you and so sorry for her,because she must feel so alone not being able to completely trust that someone would put her first in their hearts.This is just my opinion and I hope the best for you both.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

So if she believes that EVERY GUY CHEATS does that mean she is content to always be alone? I still say that this woman has serious issues and needs intensive IC. You cannot make her go. You cannot even make her see she has a problem. You need to let go. Maybe if you break it of with her and start proceeding on with your life it will be a wakeup call for her. Either way, you don't have a solid foundation upon which a lasting marriage can be built.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Of course she's going to say she didn't cheat. Cheaters seldom confess unless they are presented with hard evidence. Many of them have trust issues because of their own cheating.

Am I convinced of your ex-fiancee's cheating? No but look if there is another man who suddenly comes into the picture so soon after the breakup. Chances are good that this OM was in the picture long before the two of you went your separate ways. 

I hope that this isn't the case but people who accuse others of cheating are very often cheaters themselves.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

morituri said:


> Of course she's going to say she didn't cheat. Cheaters seldom confess unless they are presented with hard evidence. Many of them have trust issues because of their own cheating.
> 
> Am I convinced of your ex-fiancee's cheating? No but look if there is another man who suddenly comes into the picture so soon after the breakup. Chances are good that this OM was in the picture long before the two of you went your separate ways.
> 
> I hope that this isn't the case but people who accuse others of cheating are very often cheaters themselves.


Very good point! I agree.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

Update -

She came to my house this morning. She was beating the door down, ringing the door bell, she climbed up on my deck and was pounding on the door.

I woke up and came down and she told me that she was scared that I was going to do something stupid because of how I ended our discussion and the fact that she saw one of my guns on my end table. (I had one out that I had shot last week and cleaned it and never had put it away)...

She then just wanted to leave when she saw I was ok. I told her to sit for a minute. I told her that I love her more than anything else in the world and that I would have done absolutely anything for our relationship and she has to one day know that. While I am sad, I am giving her what she asked for and what she has always wanted based on her actions and beliefs. I have to look out for me.

I then directly asked her if there was anything she had not told me. She paused and then said, "no". I then asked her again and she told me, "Even if I did believe you. The kids are happier now that we are not together and I can not choose you over my kids, even if it means that when they are gone, I am all alone." and she began to cry. 

I told her that after I thought about everything, the real reason that we lost our relationship was that we stopped being friends. I stopped talking and sharing with her because I thought she would just leave me again.. for the 15x time... I did not trust her with my heart and love because she tossed it aside time and time again. The kids and I are always in competition for her time and presence but I do not compete with them directly. I just love being around her and she loves being around me, when we were friends... I take her away from the kids. I do not do it to be mean, but we have a realationship as well. She told me that she always felt torn and it was a struggle for her. I told her that I understadn that, but that is not about feelings, it is about situation, understanding and communication. I never hurt the girls. I do not know how to be a step-parent other than what I learned as a step-child myself. - You make sure that the stepchildren have all they need. You care for them, do for them, protect them. You do not try to be thier parent but more so thier friend and hope for the best. I told her that I would never ask her to choose me vs. her children and that I know that they are happier because they do not see her and I at odds or not being the friends we use to be. In addition, they do not have to compete for attention, but they get it all. I always tried to do things with the girls, but they do not want to. I am not thier father, they told me once. 

I always told her that the kids see how she treats me and they treat me with the same disrespect. I do not blame them, I blame her. Children mimic adults and grow up to be just like the ones who they learn from.... How will they ever respect or love someone else and be happy if they learn from her???

I told her that if I could have one thing back, it would be our friendship. She then looked at me directly and told me "I am sorry for doing what I did to you over the years."

I told her that I only want our friendship back but that has to be 2 people who do, not just one.

Then she started to cry and left... 



SO: 2 issues
- trust
- children

Reality is that the trust issue spawns it all. While she has not admitted it, she seems to at least be thinking about something other than me running around on her or whatever.... There could be hope, if the stars align.. Until then, I have created what I think is the beginning of a boundary for myself. That is the first step I think everyone here has tried to convey to me.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hopeless11 said:


> All my friends have always told me that ... she is simply psychotic and crazy.


Hopeless, you are NOT describing a psychotic or crazy woman. Rather, the behaviors you describe -- inability to trust, temper tantrums, verbal abuse, controlling nature, push-away and pull-back cycle, black-white thinking, and lack of impulse control -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. 

Only a professional can determine whether her BPD traits are so strong as to meet 100% of the diagnostic threshold for having the full blown disorder. This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot strong occurrences of those traits in a woman you've been dating for 8 years. Spotting the red flags is not difficult. There is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, distrustfulness, and emotional immaturity.


> She has also sabotaged our relationship multiple times, breaking up [14 times] for silly reasons....


This endless cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back is a hallmark of BPDers (i.e., those having moderate to strong BPD traits). It occurs because (1) BPDers are filled with anger carried from early childhood and (2) any minor statement or action will trigger a release of that anger when she interprets it as posing a threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment (from intimacy). Because you never know what trivial thing will trigger one fear or the other, you are always walking on eggshells. 

The push-pull cycle arises because those two fears are at opposite ends of the same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will necessarily be drawing closer to triggering the other fear. For example, when you had a very intimate evening or great weekend together, you likely found her -- the next morning -- creating an argument (over nothing at all) to push you away. 

For a BPDer, intimacy is experienced as suffocating and engulfing, making her feel as though she is losing her identity by merging into your strong personality. It is a frightening experience in which she feels she is vanishing into thin air. She therefore will feel that you are somehow "controlling" and dominating her (never mind that she is the controlling one).

Yet, as you back way to give her breathing room, you will eventually trigger her great fear of _abandonment_. It may take days or weeks for that to occur but, unless the BPDer has split you black permanently, it likely will occur. At that point, she will return behaving extra caring and sweet to pull you back into the R. This is why one hallmark of a BPDer relationship is the cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior you describe.


> Her life is filled with betrayal and cheating.


In a recent large scale study (pub. 2008), 70% of the BPDers reported having been abused or abandoned in early childhood. Because the damage occurs around age 3 or 4, the child never develops a stable, strong sense of who she is. Being unstable, she knows she cannot trust herself. And, until she learns how to do that, she is incapable of trusting anyone else. Of course, this inability to trust undermines all of her attempts to sustain close long-term friendships and marriages because trust is the foundation on which all LTRs must be built.


> Over the 8 years, she has stated to me multiple times that "all men cheat.


This claim is a classic example of "black-white thinking" -- which is another hallmark of BPDers. I explain why BPDers do this all-or-nothing thinking in another thread (at the link I provide below).


> I was thinking of taking a polygraph to prove my innocence.


Like most other respondents, I strongly urge you NOT to take the polygraph. If your GF is a BPDer -- as I suspect -- it will accomplish absolutely nothing at all because she simply is INCAPABLE of believing you or trusting you for any extended period. The proof of this is evident in the fact that you have already passed a hundred trust tests (jumping through a hundred hoops) over the past 8 years. 

The way it works with a BPDer is the more you do to prove your love and trustworthiness, _the more insistent she will become _that it cannot be not true. Sadly, the problem is not that you cannot love her or be trusted. Rather, the problem is that she is unable to love or trust herself. Until she learns to do that -- and doing so would take years of intensive weekly therapy -- she will be incapable of trusting you or anyone else.


> I love her. I just want to be with her but do not even know how to start to talk with her...


Nobody else knows how to do it either. If she is a BPDer, it is impossible to ever sit down and have a calm, rational discussion over any sensitive matter. Attempting to do so, as I noted above, will trigger her anger within ten seconds. This means that, within a few seconds, you will be left trying to reason with the inner child that she places in charge of her actions at that time.


> I am lost. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions?


Hopeless, I don't know whether your fiance has most of the nine BPD traits at a strong level. Yet, if she does, I am confident that you can easily spot the nine red flags if you will just take time to read about them. Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. 

Likewise, you could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur.

I therefore suggest you read my description of these traits in Maybe's thread at My list of hell!. If that discussion rings a bell and the traits seem to describe your GF's behavior, I would be glad to discuss them with you. I also would be happy to point you to a good book and excellent online resources. And I would encourage you to see a psychologist, on your own, to obtain a candid professional opinion. Take care, Hopeless.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Hopeless, you are NOT describing a psychotic or crazy woman. Rather, the behaviors you describe -- inability to trust, temper tantrums, verbal abuse, controlling nature, push-away and pull-back cycle, black-white thinking, and lack of impulse control -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has.
> 
> Only a professional can determine whether her BPD traits are so strong as to meet 100% of the diagnostic threshold for having the full blown disorder. This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot strong occurrences of those traits in a woman you've been dating for 8 years. Spotting the red flags is not difficult. There is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, distrustfulness, and emotional immaturity.This endless cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back is a hallmark of BPDers (i.e., those having moderate to strong BPD traits). It occurs because (1) BPDers are filled with anger carried from early childhood and (2) any minor statement or action will trigger a release of that anger when she interprets it as posing a threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment (from intimacy). Because you never know what trivial thing will trigger one fear or the other, you are always walking on eggshells.
> 
> ...



Uptown,
Honestly, reading this breaks my heart. It is a combination of realization by mapping all the signs to what you list as well as realizing that I know she will never go to counseling, ever. I have asked her many times over the years since I always felt something was just not right. 

As a caregiver, "breaking away" is something that is counter-intuitive for me and I feel like I am abandoning her. I am going to read much more. I need to be empowered and I need to figure out how to somehow bring it to her attention.

Any advice on subtle or nuanced little pushes that will trigger her to potentially seek at least some type of help. 

I can live without her, I just do not want to.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hopeless11 said:


> I know she will never go to counseling, ever.


If she is a high functioning BPDer, there is little chance she will ever agree to counseling. Even if she did, the chances of her being willing to work hard on her issues are very small. Although excellent treatment programs are available all over the country, it is unusual for a HF BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength to take advantage of them. With my exW, for example, I spent a small fortune sending her to weekly sessions -- over a 15 year period -- with 6 different psychologist and 2 MCs. It didn't even make a dent in her dysfunctional behavior and irrational fears. Not a dent.


> As a caregiver, "breaking away" is something that is counter-intuitive for me and I feel like I am abandoning her.


If your GF is a BPDer, you almost certainly are an "excessive caregiver" like me. If so, your desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are). The problem is not that we are willing to help people. Rather, it is that we keep helping them even when it is to our great detriment to do so. This occurs because our personal boundaries are so low -- and our empathy so high -- that we are unable to distinguish our own problems from theirs.

As a result, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is pure anathema for us. It goes against our religion, our family values, our sense of commitment -- indeed, against every fiber of our being. But that is exactly what we must do when we find ourselves mired in a toxic relationship with a BPDer. The toxicity is hurting both of you. It is hurting her because, as long as you continue walking on eggshells, she will continue behaving like a spoiled little child -- and GETTING AWAY WITH IT. 

In that way, you are destroying her best chance of having to face her issues and get treatment for them. That is, you've become an enabler who, by always trying to be her "soothing object," is preventing her from having an opportunity to grow up and learn how to do self soothing. It is important, for her own mental health, that she be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her bad actions. I discuss that further in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.


> I need to figure out how to somehow bring it to her attention.


At the BPD sites targeted to the partners and spouses, the conventional wisdom is to NOT tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her behavioral traits. (Indeed, psychologists are loath to tell a HF BPDer the name of the disorder, for reasons I discuss in many other threads.) The reason, of course, is that a BPDer will project the accusation right back onto you, believing you to be the one with the traits.

Yet, being a caregiver like you, there was no way I was going to walk away from my exW and leave even one stone unturned. Hence, after we separated, I slipped a BPD book into a box of her things that she was picking up. And, of course, she believes to this day that I am the one having strong BPD traits. I nonetheless suggest that you get a copy of _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ for yourself.


> Any advice on subtle or nuanced little pushes that will trigger her to potentially seek at least some type of help.


I don't know of any. If anyone does, you most likely will find it at BPDfamily.com, which is the largest forum devoted entirely to the partners and family of BPDers. Of the 8 message boards there, the two that may be of greatest help to you are the "Leaving a BPDer" board and the "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" board. 

But please don't forget us here at TAM. We want to keep providing suggestions as long as you find them helpful. Moreover, your shared experiences on this forum are surely helping many other members and lurkers who are going through the same painful experiences.


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## hopeless11 (Feb 16, 2012)

Update - 

Thanks to everyone who weighed in on the topic. This has helped me with my struggles and opened my eyes to see a little clearer.

Update:

- I am no clinician but my exFiance is DEFINITE BPD. She exhibits ALL the traits I have read about. Not only that, but I can map the last 8 years of her actions, my actions and what I have had to endure and most importantly, WHY I have endured it. It is classic BPD \ Care-giver (co-depend) issue.

She came to me on Friday, as you all know. Brutally grilled me and told me that she is no way would ever believe me ever. Funny thing when I mentioned a polygraph, I noticed a slight but definite change in her demeanor. I told her that I would not care if she believed it or not, but it will be done. I also said, "It will be interesting to see what YOURS would say..." We talked more, but she looked me in the eyse and said, "I have never been with anyone else, ever!" We talked back and forth and finally she left, crying and assuring me that all was absolutely over. I am a liar and cheater, PERIOD.

Saturday arrives. She shows up unannounced... She is pounding on my door, ringing the doorbell over and over.... I answer the door and she is upset. She said that she was worried I was sooo upset and she thought I would do something stupid... (huh???) Like kill myself or something...

So I told her nope.. I then sat her down and said to her that I would never do anything that she accuses me of and she said, "I do not believe you." So I looked her in the face and said, "What else do you have to tell me? What should I know??" She paused and said nothing. So, I asked her again and she said, "Even if I did believe you, the kids are happier now that we are not together and I can not choose you over them..." I told her I did not understand how that could be, given my relationship with them, but I would never ask her to do that, ever! And, she left...

So, this morning, I woke up and for whatever reason something just hit me and I began to think over and over again..."This is not about me. This is not about me..." 

I went to her house and she came to the door. I told her that I did not believe that this is about me and whatever she is saying and I asked her again, "What have you not told me?" She said...."There is something that I have not told you... Can we please go to your house?...I have never told anyone this, not even my family but do you remember the guy X that you asked me about when we first started dating and I told you that we were just friends. I cheated on you with him"... 

It was 7 years ago.. She said I was out of town, she went to his house, got drunk and does not remember all of what happened... (yeah right!)

She also told me that she believes that I do not cheat on her and she literally dropped to her knees sobbing asking me to forgive her and please not leave her... (what a fricken 180degree turn)...

I told her that I accept her apology and that was all I could do.
I read a list about symptoms of BPD and did not tell her what it was for\meant other than to tell me if she thought I was describing her.. She said "yes, all of it"... So, I told her she needs professional help. I told her that IF she gets help and IF I believed that she was actually getting better and it was actually working, then I would have a discussion about the entire infidelity but that is a long way away.... She said, "I will go. I do need help. I do hate me. Everyone just leaves me. I do hate what everyone has done to me...etc. etc.." She also described to me a couple of very troubling and traumatic experiences (predator type things) that I never knew about and that she has not shared with anyone that happened to her when she was small.

She said to me, "how can you not just hate me? how can you sit here and talk to me like this? please don't talk to me for pity sake.."

I told her very clearly. "I love you. I do not hate people, just thier actions. As I am now clearly showing to you, some actions are black\white but people are not. I love you but that does not mean I will ever trust or believe in you ever again. You lied to me, you allowed me to build YEARS of trust for you. You F'ed some guy and lied to my face and built me up to be a monster to all of your family, friends and even went to my mom about it! You need help with your problems. PERIOD! I worry about your children and what\how you will affect them because of your actions and your illness (whatever that ends up being).. I do not pity you, I feel compassion for you and I feel sorry for everyone in your life if you do not seek help and ACTUALLY ADMIT AND WANT TO GET BETTER. I am not the monster, I am not the victim, once again but for the last time... "

For now:
- We are not together
- She acknowledged that her accusations are crazy and believes that I would not cheat on her. Interesting I told her that I can see why she would call someone a liar when she has lied to me for 6+ years, taking away from me the ability to choose my life for myself based on fact vs. lies, building a house of cards and letting me believe that she was the saint..
- She is going to go back to her family and "reverse" all of what she has done in making into a monster. (I know she told her dad because he actually came to my house looking for her and was worried that we may have been arguing\fighting (don't go there with questions please... her parents are living with her temporarily))
- She SAYS she is going to seek professional medical help but has no idea what\how to do it. (as in, what to say, how to engage..etc) I told her, just go in and tell them how you feel, that is a great place to start.
- I have set my boundary. I will support her therapy but there is NO discussion on a relationship in the near future.
- I am seeking some help with co-dependancy and am engaging in boards\groups supporting the care-givers of BPD partners.


Never in my life did I ever see any of this happening. I guess one immediate response is that I will follow my "gut" from now on. I always felt that I was really not crazy, things are not quite right, that guy and her had more than what she had said, etc...

Thanks all. I will post more when I have more. I enjoy both your inputs as well as sharing in hopes to help others somehow.

God I love her, but she is a complete mess at this point.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I' still think there is someone more recent that she has cheated on you with. Which is why she is especially bad now. Do not go back with her until she takes a polygraph. Because she hasn't fully come clean. I know you don't want to believe it, but think on it and you'll see It too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Hopeless, thanks so much for the update. It is good that she is willing to go to a theapist (ideally, a clinical psychologist). It remains to be seen, of course, whether she has the self awareness and ego strength to stay in therapy long enough -- several years at the very least -- to make a difference. 

I caution that, for you, it will be difficult to determine whether she is making any real progress in therapy instead of playing mind games with the therapist. The problem is that, like smokers who are always "quitting," BPDers are always "improving" every two or three weeks, i.e., when they start splitting you white again for a few days. It is hard to spot real improvement in an emotionally unstable person. Even so, the encounter you describe was the very best outcome you could have hoped for. If nothing else comes of it, it at least provided you with a sense of closure.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> I' still think there is someone more recent that she has cheated on you with. Which is why she is especially bad now. Do not go back with her until she takes a polygraph. Because she hasn't fully come clean. I know you don't want to believe it, but think on it and you'll see It too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, my first thought was that she was throwing that confession out there in order to gauge his reaction and see if her confession made it right. I think there have been a lot more acts of infidelity and they are a lot worse and more recent than what she'll ever admit to on her own.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

And the truth will set you free!


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