# Why do women do it?



## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm trying to give my son solid advice about red flags in a budding relationship and it occurred to me that the people of CWI could answer this best.

Other than a personality disorder, what is the number one reason women cheat in their marriage? 

Attention, affection, etc. but what traits or pre marriage events are the things that lead to a cheater?

Thoughts?


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## Tryingtobreath (Jan 2, 2013)

Boredom would be my guess. Falling out of love w husband. 

I think most, if not all cheaters lack integrity. They could express their unhappiness prior to cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

I find this question strange. Why have you limited it to women - is it because you KNOW why men stray? (and lets it face it, men stray)


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Yessongs72 said:


> I find this question strange. Why have you limited it to women - is it because you KNOW why men stray? (and lets it face it, men stray)


Agreed. Women cheat for the same reason men do:

1) Immaturity
2) Inability to communicate feelings and needs to their partner
3) Misdirected responses to childhood trauma
4) Bad parenting
5) Selfishness
6) Inflated ego
7) Narcissism 
8) Lust..........LUST, LUST, LUST.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

With some women, as well as men, the "forbiden fruit" syndrome simply becomes too irresistible. Unlike us men, some women simply do not want to admit to others, and especially themselves, that they love to fvck. Ironically, some of the most loyal women are the ones who admit this reality to not just others but to themselves as well.


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## gettingout (Jan 15, 2013)

Statistically speaking, more men cheat than women do in relationships, so I find your question interesting. I'll take a stab at it. Short answer, women cheat for emotional reasons.

My married ex-AP (male) started flirting/pursing me over email, with the occasional confession that he "wished things could be different" (ie date me). For a year and a half. I took the energy home and tried desperately to make my marriage better (read: sex at home).

Despite being married to a guy who is extremely selfish, disrespectful,poor hygiene, sometimes borderline nuts, not even a very good dad, frankly, I didn't pursue anything physical with the this guy - until my husband (despite noticing the improvements in me but not improving himself at all) turned even meaner, which I didn't think was possible (no, he didn't know, one benefit of being married to a narc. person who's had their own affairs is that they will never suspect you...)

It was at that point, with the mental decision in my head that I was headed for divorce anyway, that I moved from an EA to a PA, but it was really short lived, because the comparison between being with this other guy and the meanness at home was too heartbreaking for me personally. He was just using me since he wasn't getting enough sex or attention at home (like many of your male stories here) but admitted his marriage wasn't toxic like mine - it was "good enough" and he was never leaving, of course. 

Yes, some people are serial cheaters. Some people just make mistakes. Some people have experiences that change their lives and tell them finally they need to get out of both situations. Mine was the last.

Hope that helps.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

gettingout said:


> Yes, some people are serial cheaters. Some people just make mistakes. Some people have experiences that change their lives and tell them finally they need to get out of both situations. Mine was the last.


Which ultimately makes you selfish.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Lack of integrity, loyalty, self-respect, respect for others, commitment and selfishness.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Yessongs72 said:


> I find this question strange. Why have you limited it to women - is it because you KNOW why men stray? (and lets it face it, men stray)


I limited it to women because it's the direction that's relevant to my discussion with my son and because I do think the reasons are generally different for women then they are for men


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

gettingout said:


> Statistically speaking, more men cheat than women do in relationships, so I find your question interesting. I'll take a stab at it. Short answer, women cheat for emotional reasons.


According to some experts in the field of infidelity, female infidelity has caught up with male infidelity in the last two decades. If you don't believe me, simply ask a few marriage counselors.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Selfishness/Low Self Esteem


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

Because they can.

They know that there is literally a line of men out there whose main goal in life is to get laid, as it somehow validates their masculinity. The fact that the woman in question is married is of no importance.

And we also have a media enforced "you go girl" cultural paradigm, combined with the expected lack of accountability from women and the ever increasing big daddy government that is more than happy to provide for them (or bail them out). Cheating is safer than ever. Your wife can cheat on you and you will be the one getting screwed over in the divorce court.

If you want to give your son a honest advice, you should tell him about the current state of the culture. Also, make sure he is aware of a very real fact, and that is female hypergamy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

Poor boundaries with the opposite sex

The refusal of many women to admit to themselves and to others that they crave variety in sexual partners as well. So maybe some of these women who are in relationships probably shouldn't attempt monogamy.

For less experienced women: Mistaking Lustful feelings for love. 

Just a few. There are many others of course depending on the individual and the circumstances.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

I appreciate the responses so far.

I ask this because my son is 20 and beginning to get serious with his girlfriend, who I like. The problem is while she is very pretty she has serious self esteem issues. 
They manifest in a way I think is dangerous for the future. He is very affectionate and spends a lot of time with her but it's never enough for her and she says he doesn't show her enough attention and doesn't make her feel loved enough.

I work with my son and we talk a lot. He is doing more than most boyfriends do in the showing affection department and in my opinion it only gets harder when you have kids and a mortgage.

I don't know but low self esteem and seeking it from the opposite seems like a red flag.




By the way I know men cheat, but many times I feel its sex driven as opposed to emotional deficit driven.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Selfishness/Low Self Esteem


This is currently my thinking, although I realize there are many reasons.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

Numbersixxx said:


> *Because they can.*
> They know that there is literally a line of men out there whose main goal in life is to get laid, as it somehow validated their masculinity. The fact that the woman in question is married is of no importance.
> 
> And we also have a media enforced "you go girl" cultural paradigm, combined with the expected lack of accountability from women and the ever increasing big daddy government that is more than happy to provide for them (or bail them out). Cheating is safer than ever. Your wife can cheat on you and you will be the one getting screwed over in the divorce court.
> ...


I'm suprised so many women can be faithful given how many more options they have than we do.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

I think men and women cheat for the same reasons, but they cheat differently. 

Many men can just go out and have a PA or ONS and still believe they love their BS. Women tend to distance themselves emotionally before engaging in a PA. And they tend to take more time to build a connection with their AP before progressing to a PA.

This, combined with the cultural bias of a cuckolded man's "shame" makes it more difficult to recover from an affair where the wife is the betrayer, in my opinion.

In short: women cheat for emotional fulfillment. Men cheat to get their rocks off.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

It seems to me even a person who swears to God and means it can be a time bomb that will end up cheating and justifying it someday. It seems to me it's internally driven as opposed to an externally stimulated thing. 

Maybe it's an extreme ability to rationalize ones actions so guilt doesn't set in. That wouldoint to selfishness to a large degree.

Debasing oneself with a stranger would point to low self esteem as well as needing constant praise and reassurance. Thus the excuse "you didn't show me enough attention so I got it from OM" "It's your fault"


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

Numbersixxx said:


> Because they can.
> 
> They know that there is literally a line of men out there whose main goal in life is to get laid, as it somehow validated their masculinity. The fact that the woman in question is married is of no importance.
> 
> ...


truth


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

jfv said:


> I'm suprised so many women can be faithful given how many more options they have than we do.


So you assume. Female infielity is bigger than you think.


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## seasalt (Jul 5, 2012)

Your son would be better served if someone she respected was having the same discussion with her.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I think the media has a lot to do with it these days. It seems that every week, another female celeb is filing for divorce (never the male...hmmm?), and many women are getting the message that it is liberating and empowering. And they also see these celebs having their careers recharged and prolonged, not to mention the young stud-muffin man candy that is on their arms less than a week after their "painful" decision.

They are constantly bombarded with with "Real Housewives of..." shows, they see them getting away with it, they see shows like "Desperate Housewives" and feel that if they're not unhappy in their marriages or disappointed with their husbands, that there is something "wrong" with them, as if they are settling and selling out their true happiness.

And, as others have said, there is the "you go girl" syndrome, where women are reminded that they can indeed have it all: career, family, husband that they can "train" do do the housework, and then, after the week's over, the kids are in bed, and the husband's fed, they can go out on their GNO's and do a little "harmless" hooking up at the club, fully knowing that their girlfriends will cover for them because, "Hey, girlfriend-You deserve it!"

They also see that even if they do get caught, get outed, and do get divorced, then they can always hire a shark lawyer who will "get them everything", and as a bonus, their STBXH can pay for it all! They believe that they will indeed get the house, the car, child support, and that they will now be seen as "MILFs" and "Cougars" that ANY guy will hook up with.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Learned passive behavior (open to manipulation, flattery, being hit on.)
Poor self-esteem (goes with above.)
Lack of communication skills and setting boundaries (with partner and with others.)
Not having thoroughly committed to marriage 100% (goes along with not having confidence in their choices and in themselves.)
Experimenting with their feminine power (Pandora's Box Syndrome.)


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## gettingout (Jan 15, 2013)

Cedarman said:


> I think men and women cheat for the same reasons, but they cheat differently.
> 
> Many men can just go out and have a PA or ONS and still believe they love their BS. Women tend to distance themselves emotionally before engaging in a PA. And they tend to take more time to build a connection with their AP before progressing to a PA.
> In short: women cheat for emotional fulfillment. Men cheat to get their rocks off.


I would say this happened in my case. When I asked my ex AP how could he do that to his wife (knowing why I did it) he said he could keep everything separate in his head. I don't think I was his first nor will I be his last, should the opportunity present itself to him, I'm guessing.


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## gettingout (Jan 15, 2013)

dogman said:


> I appreciate the responses so far.
> 
> I ask this because my son is 20 and beginning to get serious with his girlfriend, who I like. The problem is while she is very pretty she has serious self esteem issues.
> They manifest in a way I think is dangerous for the future. He is very affectionate and spends a lot of time with her but it's never enough for her and she says he doesn't show her enough attention and doesn't make her feel loved enough.
> ...


I would say these are huge red flags as well.

At 20 I sure hope they aren't thinking about marriage in any case, honestly.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

F-102 said:


> I think the media has a lot to do with it these days. It seems that every week, another female celeb is filing for divorce (never the male...hmmm?), and many women are getting the message that it is liberating and empowering. And they also see these celebs having their careers recharged and prolonged, not to mention the young stud-muffin man candy that is on their arms less than a week after their "painful" decision.
> 
> They are constantly bombarded with with "Real Housewives of..." shows, they see them getting away with it, they see shows like "Desperate Housewives" and feel that if they're not unhappy in their marriages or disappointed with their husbands, that there is something "wrong" with them, as if they are settling and selling out their true happiness.
> 
> ...


Is everything really this bleak on the marriage and male side?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Numbersixxx said:


> Because they can.
> 
> *They know that there is literally a line of men out there whose main goal in life is to get laid, as it somehow validated their masculinity.* *The fact that the woman in question is married is of no importance.*
> 
> ...


I absolutely could not agree more!

All of the stated reasons for cheating by a female (or even by a male) are very valid leaving little to no room for refutation.

And to give *Cedarman* his due, he fastly hit the nail squarely on the head by stipulating the chief reasons for such as being that the female needed it primarily for *"emotional * *fulfillment"* whereas the male was pretty much * "just to put another **notch on his pistol"* by sampling the "strange" while still largely getting certain quantities of the domesticated stuff back at the house.

Inasfar as the hypergamy is concerned, that is quite valid as I can't help but theorize that someone like my STBXW, while coming from the upper class, found novelty in marrying a middle class guy like me, who had an overt sense of deity and morality, something I greatly feel that she had never had before.

Well, in time, the "new" or "novelty" wears off of that for her and she relegates "her husband" to the back of the boat~ somehow hoping that I might somehow fall off of the gangplank, while she is covertly "hooking-up" with other men from her past as well as from her social order, to greatly replace me in trying to satisfy her sexual longings; and all at the same time, trying to sue me under the guise of some vague and obscure clause within her prenup for "my share" of the marital expenses. 

And that's largely under the assumption on her part that money as opposed to the truth, more often than not, can usually buy the best justice!


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

morituri said:


> So you assume. Female infielity is bigger than you think.


It probably isn't because I honestly believe that almost all of them do at some point. What I meant to say is that I'm surprised ALL of them don't. But again, that is still an assumption on my part.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

gettingout said:


> Statistically speaking, more men cheat than women do in relationships, so I find your question interesting. I'll take a stab at it. Short answer, women cheat for emotional reasons.
> 
> My married ex-AP (male) started flirting/pursing me over email, with the occasional confession that he "wished things could be different" (ie date me). For a year and a half. I took the energy home and tried desperately to make my marriage better (read: sex at home).
> 
> ...


I'm not going to challenge you on your issues with your husband because I wasn't there.

But if he was that bad, why not say or if you couldn't say it. Why not get a marriage counselor to call him up and say you need to come here and talk with me right now or your going to loose your wife. 

You know, why was he so angry ? Why did you marry a man that was so angry ?

End result these were things you could have addressed yourself or asked for help addressing. 

That is the whole point of a marriage. If my WIFE can't tell me the honest truth, then who the fu,ck can ? 

Isn't that what marriage is about going through life's trials and tribulations together. Helping fix what is honestly wrong with each other to be a better person and couple. 

Yes I admit I am picking on you. But to me it sounds like you want to justify to everyone why you had an affair when sadly there is no excuse for one. 

If it was so bad for you then get out.. 

But to say my husband of X amount of years is a piece of sh.it and I did nothing about it, except have an affair just doesn't hold water for me. 

I'm pretty sure my wife is painting me as some sort of piece of sh.it. to make an excuse for leaving me. Fortunately for me I have more then enough friends that remind me otherwise. 

And Yes I am very, very sorry I derailed this thread. And yes I might be directing my anger out on you. But I honestly don't think so.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

lack of ability to avoid temptation or ability to simply say no to something they want. lack of self control. desire for instant gratification


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## Married in VA (Jan 6, 2012)

In regards to your son, I think you are asking the wrong question. Here is why people cheat:

PEOPLE ARE NOT PERFECT, period.

Can he spot the red flags prior to marriage? Sure he can but he will probably ignore them anyway due to the chemical high of being in love. 

Now, what is the right question to ask?

How about, What is your son going to DO ABOUT IT if his wife cheats? He cannot control her or her actions so you would be best served by teaching him self respect and how to stand up for himself if she ever does cheat. Teach him how not to become a "nice guy" and doormat. Teach him the proper mix of alpha/beta traits that make him someone his wife WON'T want to cheat on. 

Of course you can do all this and she may cheat anyway. Why?

BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T PERFECT

Get the drift?


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

As someone who has cheated, I would say there are not always signs. Cheating was not something I ever thought I would do. If her self esteem issues are causing issues for them now, it will only get worse. It may not lead to her cheating but it will make for an unhappy relationship. She should seek counseling as your son will not be able to "fix" her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I seriously don't understand why any smart young guy who has a future and career ahead of him would ever want to marry in today's immoral social climate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loyal Lover (Jan 30, 2013)

Married in VA said:


> How about, What is your son going to DO ABOUT IT if his wife cheats? He cannot control her or her actions so you would be best served by teaching him self respect and how to stand up for himself if she ever does cheat. Teach him how not to become a "nice guy" and doormat. Teach him the proper mix of alpha/beta traits that make him someone his wife WON'T want to cheat on.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I'm not married so the advice I share with you is what I am going to follow myself.

You can't control other people's actions. You can only control your reaction.

It's the beautiful thing about cohabiting the planet with other humans. And the scary thing.

Your son should focus on - is she a good person? Are they compatible? Is she worthy of his trust? Is he willing to work hard on his marriage? Can he truly trust her to do the same?

But as to why people cheat... I myself am engaged and have been OBSESSING over this. From the numerous articles, books, and advice here on TAM I've read...

one of the main reasons people cheat is the *opportunity*. Can they get away with it? Reduce this by setting and respecting boundaries and being transparent with each other so there's no room for 'cheating opportunities'. From what I read a lot of times people find themselves surprised that THEY cheated. Don't play with the boundaries, avoid opportunities.

The other is *lack of communication*. Reduce this by working together to solve your problems so they don't escalate and by trying to understand each other, being patient with each other, knowing when to compromise and when to ask for forgiveness. Don't let resentment build on either side. Be honest and appreciate each others honesty.

Best of luck to your son in his relationship.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Married in VA said:


> In regards to your son, I think you are asking the wrong question. Here is why people cheat:
> 
> PEOPLE ARE NOT PERFECT, period.
> 
> ...


Of course people aren't perfect. We all have feet of clay. But, I passed on a number of women before my wife because of red flags. We need to limit our exposure to dangerous people. 
Can we do this with certainty?...no. But limit is the key word here.

I avoided women who had a history that I was uncomfortable with. I avoided one that I felt had sketchy boundaries. And so on, in an attempt to make my chances of a lifelong marriage better.

They say it takes two to make it in marriage but it takes one to ruin it.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> As someone who has cheated, I would say there are not always signs. Cheating was not something I ever thought I would do. If her self esteem issues are causing issues for them now, it will only get worse. It may not lead to her cheating but it will make for an unhappy relationship. She should seek counseling as your son will not be able to "fix" her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see your point. I think the self esteem issue is already causing many fights.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> As someone who has cheated, I would say there are not always signs.* Cheating was not something I ever thought I would do.* If her self esteem issues are causing issues for them now, it will only get worse. It may not lead to her cheating but it will make for an unhappy relationship. She should seek counseling as your son will not be able to "fix" her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same here. Never in a million years did I ever think I would cheat in any way. There were never any red flags prior to marriage. It wasn't until my husband's psych problems cropped up that my problems began. I didn't have a bad childhood. No childhood traumas, nothing. I had never dealt with anything like his problems before. In my case, at least, there was no indication that I would have any problems.


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## gettingout (Jan 15, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> I'm not going to challenge you on your issues with your husband because I wasn't there.
> 
> But if he was that bad, why not say or if you couldn't say it. Why not get a marriage counselor to call him up and say you need to come here and talk with me right now or your going to loose your wife.
> 
> ...


Yup, you're not in my shoes, and no you weren't there for the multiple rounds of counseling with different people, books, workshops, you name, it, thanks! Sorry if I am not spilling all the details of my life here for you to pick apart....


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## gettingout (Jan 15, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Same here. Never in a million years did I ever think I would cheat in any way. There were never any red flags prior to marriage. It wasn't until my husband's psych problems cropped up that my problems began. I didn't have a bad childhood. No childhood traumas, nothing. I had never dealt with anything like his problems before. In my case, at least, there was no indication that I would have any problems.


I never in a million years thought I would either.

And I did not realize the extent of my husband's psych problems until years after I married him.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Same here. Never in a million years did I ever think I would cheat in any way. There were never any red flags prior to marriage. It wasn't until my husband's psych problems cropped up that my problems began. I didn't have a bad childhood. No childhood traumas, nothing. I had never dealt with anything like his problems before. In my case, at least, there was no indication that I would have any problems.



Ok ...wow..thanks everyone. I guess that says it. Circumstances can make every person a potential cheater.

I still think low self esteem leads to a difficult relationship regardless of cheating potential.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Is everything really this bleak on the marriage and male side?


No, not saying that, just saying that the media tends to perpetrate that message.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

gettingout said:


> At 20 I sure hope they aren't thinking about marriage in any case, honestly.



I think this, more than anything is the most important. What's the rush, especially if there are issues?

It sounds like your son's GF has some self-esteem issues and is demonstrating, already, some controlling behaviour. I would advise your son to just take it slowly and see how the relationship develops. Keep an eye on it yourself and see if your son is showing signs of being controlled.

But more than anything, at age 20, there is still a lot of growing up to do for both of them. The worst thing is to get married too young and then have a MLC where you try to recapture your youth - living that with my stbxw.

I have two daughters and I don't want them to get married until they're out of university, established in their lives and know what they want.

Of course, as a parent you only have so much control - but that's what I plan to advise for my girls.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

dogman said:


> Ok ...wow..thanks everyone. I guess that says it. Circumstances can make every person a potential cheater.
> 
> I still think low self esteem leads to a difficult relationship regardless of cheating potential.


Well, even under the most difficult circumstances, not everyone would do it. I really don't know what it was in me that snapped. But i know I screwed up. We are still together.


I absolutely agree that low self esteem can lead to difficulties in a relationship.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

dogman said:


> I appreciate the responses so far.
> 
> I ask this because my son is 20 and beginning to get serious with his girlfriend, who I like. The problem is while she is very pretty she has serious self esteem issues. Big red flag, this will cause her to constantly seek validation from others. How are her boundaries?
> 
> ...


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Also, the human brain continues to develop until about age 26. So some of her behavior could just be immaturity, but I think you are spot on with your assessment so far.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dogman said:


> I'm trying to give my son solid advice about red flags in a budding relationship and it occurred to me that the people of CWI could answer this best.
> 
> Other than a personality disorder, what is the number one reason women cheat in their marriage?
> 
> ...


Agreed upon and reasonable boundaries are key. There's too many variables to know why someone cheats but with good boundaries and transparency, the red flags are obvious very early on. I see so many instances where there's just no code of conduct and blind trust and privacy are valued beyond reason. JMO.


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> I seriously don't understand why any smart young guy who has a future and career ahead of him would ever want to marry in today's immoral social climate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because of all the social conditioning. They are told by almost everybody: "Yes, marriage statistics are in the toilet with more than 50% divorce rates and the family courts are set against you. But if YOU do all the right things, YOUR case will be different. You will basically get your magic unicorn and live happily ever after."

What then follows can be explained by the Wizard's first rule, i.e. people are stupid and given proper motivation they will belive almost anything. So they will belive a lie simply because they want to belive it's true, or are afraid it might be true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Pretty good Numbersixxx. I like it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

Hollywood....


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Aunt Ava,
Yes he is starting to feel stress due to the insecurity she has. 

She is a twin and her sister tends to be the one to get the attention and is into body sculpting type exercise. Her sister is the favorite with her parents as well. Many insecure events stem from this interaction. 
His girl has mediocre boundaries but nothing too bad for a 20 yr old.

We had a long discussion yesterday and I'm careful not to tell him to break it off, but I instead tell him to always address her issues as HER issues and to have firm boundaries when it comes to being drawn into drama.

I've always said once the kids are out of high school everyone they date is a potential spouse. They can easily date for 5 or 6 years and marry just because they have so much time invested not because it's the best choice.

Thanks for your insight.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Agreed upon and reasonable boundaries are key. There's too many variables to know why someone cheats but with good boundaries and transparency, the red flags are obvious very early on. I see so many instances where there's just no code of conduct and blind trust and privacy are valued beyond reason. JMO.



This is all true. As my kids get older I start to wonder if I should have started establishing the idea of boundaries in elementary school. I never even heard about this sort of thing until I was handling my own issues at 40+ yrs old. 

....if I only knew then what I know now, right?


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

dogman said:


> I limited it to women because it's the direction that's relevant to my discussion with my son and because I do think the reasons are generally different for women then they are for men


Thanks - good answer. I wish i knew why women strayed, perhaps it is more an emotional seeking thing (sometimes) or maybe thats just that men are less emotional and just want to get laid?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

gettingout said:


> Statistically speaking, more men cheat than women do in relationships, so I find your question interesting. I'll take a stab at it. Short answer, women cheat for emotional reasons.


No way do I think this is true in 2013.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

morituri said:


> According to some experts in the field of infidelity, female infidelity has caught up with male infidelity in the last two decades. If you don't believe me, simply ask a few marriage counselors.


There was a just announced study saying the same thing. The difference is in the why and that how women cheat is more "dangerous" (their term). They mentioned that online affairs, an EA, that don't result in a physical meeting (because of distance) are more common with women. So if you are talking about PA, I believe it is still more common with men but if you are talking about any kind of affair then yes, women are equally likely to cheat.

One interesting observation out of that was that men are far more likely to cheat with someone they know ... picking up women at a bar, for example, is less common than generally thought. One theory about women is that since more women are in the work force than ever before and they are also likely to cheat with someone they already know, there are more opportunities than ever for women to cheat.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I think the best thing you can teach your son is about boundaries. His and for his marriage.

Teach him about EAs. That most affairs spring out of EAs. That most marriages are destroyed by EAs. I think part of why folks think woemn have fewer affairs is because they are not counting EAs.

For him to not afriad to be a man and assert his boundaries and protect his marriage. Never to let other deter him from this. For him to never allow himself to be manipulated for fear of being called jealous, insecure, controlling and / or judgemental.
Tell him in a good marriage the spouses ahve each other backs. But that as the man in the relationship he must control what he can which is himself and to protect his marriage.

He must choose a marriage partner wisely. He cannot expect a person to just change who they are when they get married. If he marries a party girl he cannot expect her to jst switch that off. Most will not, or only do that after the new wears off. But he needs to know what he wants in a partner and to not settle for less. We are capable of falling in love with many different people. Best to fall in love with a quality person though there are no garauntees.

I also suggest that the couple do His Needs Her Needs before marriage. They they find out about each others needs and set opposite sex boundaries that theuy agree on. He needs to understand that it is counterproductive to compromise his intergity here to be seen as a NIce Guy or to off as very liberal. He needs to be radically honest. He may only get one shot at this.

So while many people can take a valid view of why people cheat I think the best thing you can do is give him a roadmap and an example of a good marriage.

Also frankly I would have him read MMSL.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> No way do I think this is true in 2013.


I think in 2013, women and men cheat equally. I still think it holds true that woman are more likely to cheat for emotional reasons.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> There was a just announced study saying the same thing. The difference is in the why. They mentioned that online affairs, an EA, that don't result in a physical meeting (because of distance) are more common with women. So if you are talking about PA, I believe it is still more common with men but if you are talking about any kind of affair then yes, women are equally likely to cheat.
> 
> One interesting observation out of that was that men are far more likely to cheat with someone they know ... picking up women at a bar, for example, is less common than generally thought. One theory about women is that since more women are in the work force than ever before and they are also likely to cheat with someone they already know, there are more opportunities than ever for women to cheat.


Agreed. The thing is that EAs destroy marriages and I think people put too much emphasis on PIV sex. The marriage is destroyed way before that.

Plus frankly I believe women hide affairs better than men. Men are also very willing to take the blame for their wife's affair / unhappiness.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I think in 2013, women and men cheat equally. I still think it holds true that woman are more likely to cheat for emotional reasons.


Hence my focus on EAs from a husbands perspective. I would not be surprised if when considering EAs that women actually are involved in more affairs total. Most folks have no idea what an EA is and we see how many women fight so hard for their close male friends.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Plus frankly I believe women hide affairs better than men. Men are also very willing to take the blame for their wife/s affair / unhappiness.


I would tend to agree with this statement except technology seems to be leveling that out a bit ... how many affairs are first suspected because of suspicious social media / texting activity. There is a website I stumbled across that identified cases of female teachers arrested for having sex with their students. A shocking number and the majority of these teachers are married with children. How were these discovered? Next to the obvious bragging from the students, texting and social media was by far the most common method of discovery.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

My STBXW had an EA/PA and from my perspective the EA is harder to recover from because of the emotional component.

I believe that the number of texting affairs is probably unknown because so many go undiscovered. I also believe that texting/social networking has opened up cheating to a lot of women who would not have had an opportunity to cheat before. It's safer and easier than an initial face to face.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Cedarman said:


> My STBXW had an EA/PA and from my perspective the EA is harder to recover from because of the emotional component.
> 
> I believe that the number of texting affairs is probably unknown because so many go undiscovered. I also believe that texting/social networking has opened up cheating to a lot of women who would not have had an opportunity to cheat before. It's safer and easier than an initial face to face.


Exactly.

I am in no way bashing on women here. I think much of the infidelity is not seen as infidelity by many. Just friends is the mantra.

But social media combined with women new found positions in the work place and new found financial freedom.

Many women now have choices they did not have years gone by. This is as it should be. They do not have to live in fear of losing their financial well being. They can support themselves. So some will indulge themselves.

Also they are now exposed to the same temptations that men have been in the workplace. They travel more as well. Just saying that playing field has leveled.

There is also a segment of young women who appear to be very entitled. You tell me why. But they assume that men have all been cheaters so they want that right as well. Some just insist that they can maintain close friendships with other men. Many feel they have a certain right to party with other men as long as their is no PIV sex. Many feel entitled to party hard and dance and flirt with other men while hubby stays home and likes it. Yes this is a very one sided statement however there is a segament of women who feel this way. They take the it's my body and I can do what I want just a tad further than most people would expect. You don't own me. You are not my dad. And so on. I don't think they are ready to marry yet. So I would tell my son to avoid such people.

Add to this a whole level of social programming of young men to be Nice Guys and accept this in the name of progress.

To be clear I am absolutely in favor of true balance. Of equity. Equal partnership in marriage. I am just not infavor of a pendulum swing that is disrespectful to men.

A man needs to have his respect and has every right to expect his wife to put him above any other men and he should reciprocate.

I would also insist that my son always respect his wife. That he never abuse her in anyway. But that she depends on him to be a strong man.

For him to never let another man or woman become the third person in his marriage.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> My STBXW had an EA/PA and from my perspective the EA is harder to recover from because of the emotional component.
> 
> I believe that the number of texting affairs is probably unknown because so many go undiscovered. I also believe that texting/social networking has opened up cheating to a lot of women who would not have had an opportunity to cheat before. It's safer and easier than an initial face to face.


You know, I have never had a reason to suspect my wife of cheating. In my 20 years of marriage, I haven't seen many red flags ... not even of an EA. I know who her friends are (most fall into the ultra conservative category) and who she spends time with. Going out with the girls means going out to dinner and not to a bar or club (she doesn't drink and I have full visibility to where she spends her money). There have been periods in our marriage where I have not paid enough attention (due to work or stress or other problems in our relationship) when I think there are many other spouses who would be vulnerable to an affair. Probably due to the influence of reading TAM and some of these stories, I became concerned recently because we were having problems and I noticed her becoming more private with her phone and a significant increase in her texts. So, one night it was late and she was in bed asleep ... I took her phone and reconciled the texts on her phone with our statements. No suspicious texts, mass deletions or phone numbers I couldn't identify. There were a few talking about our problems but most were about our daughters, her school (she's working on her masters), bible study or other innocuous things. That was a relief. You guys have me paranoid, lol.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Oh and I think an important take away is that one should pck someone who is compatible with them in values. There are plenty of good women out there. It is worth the effort to alonw oneself to mature and to find a quality an compatible woman. No need to rush into marriage at all.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> You know, I have never had a reason to suspect my wife of cheating. In my 20 years of marriage, I haven't seen many red flags ... not even of an EA. I know who her friends are (most fall into the ultra conservative category) and who she spends time with. Going out with the girls means going out to dinner and not to a bar or club (she doesn't drink and I have full visibility to where she spends her money). There have been periods in our marriage where I have not paid enough attention (due to work or stress or other problems in our relationship) when I think there are many other spouses who would be vulnerable to an affair. Probably due to the influence of reading TAM and some of these stories, I became concerned recently because we were having problems and I noticed her becoming more private with her phone and a significant increase in her texts. So, one night it was late and she was in bed asleep ... I took her phone and reconciled the texts on her phone with our statements. No suspicious texts, mass deletions or phone numbers I couldn't identify. There were a few talking about our problems but most were about our daughters, her school (she's working on her masters), bible study or other innocuous things. That was a relief. You guys have me paranoid, lol.


I will have been married 36 years this month. My wife has never let me down.

But the playing field has changed over the years and a young man has to know what temptations are out there and what he needs to do to protect his marriage. Most affairs happen ... naively but innocently. Boundaries are key.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Plenty of miserable marriages that don't involve cheating.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Dogman, do you want men to make suppositions on why women cheat or do you want to hear from the cheaters themselves?

Sometimes it seems like when a WS, especially a female, comes on and tries to explain their thinking (right or wrong) they are shouted down vociferously. 

I have no problem with going into my reasons or poor boundaries, if you are interested. I just don't want to intrude if you aren't looking for words from the WWs themselves.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> I will have been married 36 years this month. My wife has never let me down.
> 
> But the playing field has changed over the years and a young man has to know what temptations are out there and what he needs to do to protect his marriage. Most affairs happen ... naively but innocently. Boundaries are key.


Boundaries ARE key. One of the best defenses against having an affair is never putting yourself in a position where that temptation is even possible.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

I love this site because it just convinced me even more to not bother with marriage. For men in today's age the negatives of marriage outway the positives. I'm 28 years old, single and I feel I have a bright future with a lot of good years ahead of me. Marriage just seems like an unnecessary risk. Especially with divorce being a 50/50 shot which women initiate almost 70% of the time anyway.

I just wish society would get off this "You have to get married to be happy" trip. 

(It's not my intent to turn this into a "bash women" thread either. I've seen my fair share of women who get screwed over by men including my Mom by my Dad)


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Boundaries ARE key. One of the best defenses against having an affair is never putting yourself in a position where that temptation is even possible.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Jasel said:


> I love this site because it just convinced me even more to not bother with marriage. For men in today's age the negatives of marriage outway the positives. I'm 28 years old, single and I feel I have a bright future with a lot of good years ahead of me. Marriage just seems like an unnecessary risk. Especially with divorce being a 50/50 shot which women initiate almost 70% of the time anyway.
> 
> I just wish society would get off this "You have to get married to be happy" trip.
> 
> (It's not my intent to turn this into a "bash women" thread either. I've seen my fair share of women who get screwed over by men including my Mom by my Dad)


I don't know that you should avoid marriage simply because of the potential that it could turn out badly. While marriage isn't always easy, relationships aren't always easy whether you are married or not. If you find the right person who shares your values, don't turn them away because something MIGHT go wrong. You are on a website where the vast majority of people have had or are currently having problems in their marriage ... don't let that skew your opinion. For all these people with bad marriages, I know at least as many people who have wonderful marriages. I'll tell you, I get a little jealous when I see someone on facebook who has been married for 10,20,30 years declare to everybody how in love with their spouse they are or how incredible they are.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I have never regeretted being married to my wife.

But one has to understand commitment and have a mature understanding of how to be married and a willingness to protect the marriage. If the marriage is not the #1 priority then the likelihood of suuccess is not so good.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> Dogman, do you want men to make suppositions on why women cheat or do you want to hear from the cheaters themselves?
> 
> Sometimes it seems like when a WS, especially a female, comes on and tries to explain their thinking (right or wrong) they are shouted down vociferously.
> 
> I have no problem with going into my reasons or poor boundaries, if you are interested. I just don't want to intrude if you aren't looking for words from the WWs themselves.


I'm not dogman but I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. And no I most certainly won't shout you or anyone else down.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I don't know that you should avoid marriage simply because of the potential that it could turn out badly. While marriage isn't always easy, relationships aren't always easy whether you are married or not. If you find the right person who shares your values, don't turn them away because something MIGHT go wrong. You are on a website where the vast majority of people have had or are currently having problems in their marriage ... don't let that skew your opinion. For all these people with bad marriages, I know at least as many people who have wonderful marriages. I'll tell you, I get a little jealous when I see someone on facebook who has been married for 10,20,30 years declare to everybody how in love with their spouse they are or how incredible they are.


Oh don't get me wrong, I wouldn't turn someone away simply because there's a possibility things might go bad before they even get started. That's a risk with any relationship, marriage or not. I just don't see why marriage has to be part of the equation at all. Just seems to make it harder for people to walk away from a bad relationship even when they want to or know they should. And then get screwed even when the relationship is over.

I guess I don't feel the need to get married to someone to see myself with them for decades or to have a good relationship. For some people marriage works which is great, for others it doesn't which more often than not is not so great. 

I just see so many people who either had no business being married to begin with (ie: SOME cheating spouses, narcissists, etc), or wound up being married to someone who couldn't hack being married for the long haul. But once again, society tells people that marriage is the be all end all to a relationship. And not enough people question that (although I'm seeing more and more men around my age who are starting to.)

I'm not "anti-marriage" but I wish the institution wasn't put on such a pedestal. Especially with it's failure rate.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Poor character: Disguised or little/no/some morals and little/no/some value system. 
For your son: Red Flags
1. Easily coaxed into sex or sexually aggressive. Easy to lay by you, easy to lay by everyone
else. (Helps to cue in on ability to commit and respect for her body)
2. The way she dresses - provocative - dead give away. Modest dressers are capable, so next
level - how she interacts with male friends and male family - flirty, eg. seductive eye contact,
dead give away, re: boundary issues. Seductive eye contact. (Self-respect) 
3. The way she speaks: What she says and how she says it. (Cues in on how she relates to self
and others, so self-respect)
4. Emotional roller-coasting. Management of emotions, especially anger. How she copes plus, if
she avoids/resolves conflict, how she solves problems. (Helps to cue in on her ability to cope
with difficulties and marriage stressors)
5. Shallow. Not much of an opinion or stance on any matter. Not everyone is smart and not
everyone who is smart is intelligent. (Helps to cue ability to commit)

Just my opinion.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Jasel, there are some practical reasons why people still marry. For example, my husband was in the Army and he is now a federal agent. In the eyes of the federal government, cohabitating partners almost don't exist. I wouldn't be eligible for health care or the EAP services through his job if we were not legally wed. On top of that, it was extremely important to my husband that I carry his last name and so did any children we had. 

When I was younger I thought I'd NEVER get married! I had a job and an apartment and a college education. My mother had 2 bad marriages and I thought all men were predators. Luckily, I met some genuinely good people (husband included) who changed my mind. 

As far as the reasons or justifications, I never set out to find an EA. just like Entropy said, many affairs start from naïveté. No one tells you when you get married, loose boundaries can lead to trouble! Sharing intimate details with the opposite sex leads to emotional bonding, which can lead to EAs which can lead to PAs and families being broken. 

I found it easy to talk to this other guy who shared my interests in music and writing and books. Then when he started complimenting my looks, I was flattered. I hadn't slept with him so it was no big deal right? My husband doesn't want to hear about this show coming to town, but HE does! So it's ok to talk to him instead of my husband! Things like that made it easier to drop any kind of boundaries that I had. 

Eventually we exchanged deep feelings and intimate secrets and even discussed how I could leave my husband without causing too much upset to my children. 

Bad boundaries and being disconnected from my husband were my downfall.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Annie,

You answer how but not really why. Why is it so easy for a man to do what the OM did.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Is your son the one thinking of marriage, or is it you? 

I know I may be stepping over the line of things I shouldn't ask, but are they having sex? Because that might be an issue. Some young guys (I would probably be included in that list) will bend over backwards for a little intimacy. 

Also, you think this is safe? She has low self-esteem, feels like she isn't getting the affection she deserves, and has some poor boundaries that you attribute to her age. 

Now, I know I am the same age as your son, and many of you are older and have seen infidelity play out many more times than I have, but that just screams PROBLEM to me. 

I would honestly tell your son, wait till AFTER college, to get married. 
Prefereably, I prefer the Tom Leykis philosophy of not getting into a serious relationship until you are 25. Because by that time, you should be mostly, developed everywhere. You should have a career, no more growing up to do, and you are on your own and know the world. 
At 20 though...you still have a lot to learn. Unless life dealt you a cruel hand and you did a lot of growing up. 
But by cruel hand, I mean: You are living on your own, working a job, and you do everything yourself. And I have a feeling your son wasn't dealt that cruel of a hand in life.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

jim123 said:


> Annie,
> 
> You answer how but not really why. Why is it so easy for a man to do what the OM did.


As in why was he able to get between me and my husband so easily? The gulf between us then and now is huge. There is very little intimacy or connection. I felt unappreciated, alone, and eager to have someone who wanted to be with me. It started off as wanting someone with whom to share things.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dogman said:


> I limited it to women because it's the direction that's relevant to my discussion with my son and because I do think the reasons are generally different for women then they are for men


It might be good to also teach your son why men cheat and how he himself and prevent this in his marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dogman said:


> I'm trying to give my son solid advice about red flags in a budding relationship and it occurred to me that the people of CWI could answer this best.
> 
> Other than a personality disorder, what is the number one reason women cheat in their marriage?
> 
> ...


If you want to know why both men and women cheat, there are some books that both you and your son can read. If you want to teach him how to have a very good marriage the same books will teach him this. I have been teaching my children what these books say as I think it's very wise.

"Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Harley

After that book, take a look at the books linked to below for building a passionate marriage.

Other books that would help in this are some by Laura Schlessinger… 
“Ten Stupid Things Men Do to Mess Up Their Lives” 
“The Proper Care & Feeding of a Marriage”
“Ten Stupid Things Couples Do to Mess Up Their Relationship”



There are two kinds of cheaters. 

The one we usually think about are the serial cheaters who just cheat because they think they are entitled. They are broken people who should be avoided. Unfortunately we often do not know who they are until it's too late.

Then there are the people who cheat because their needs are not being met in their marriage. They get to the point where they are so burnt from not having their needs met that they become extremely selfish and cheat. These are the type of people who will usually work on a recovery once the affair is found out and they can work with their spouse to fix things. They usually do not repeat offend.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Hence my focus on EAs from a husbands perspective. I would not be surprised if when considering EAs that women actually are involved in more affairs total. Most folks have no idea what an EA is and we see how many women fight so hard for their close male friends.


Yes, EAs are a Huge problem and theyre in denial until it goes PA.

My wife had an EA 6+ years ago. She will not admit it even alittle. Had I not done certain things it would have gone PA of that I am sure. 
It has to be recognized that EAs are just as destructive as PAs.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> Dogman, do you want men to make suppositions on why women cheat or do you want to hear from the cheaters themselves?
> 
> Sometimes it seems like when a WS, especially a female, comes on and tries to explain their thinking (right or wrong) they are shouted down vociferously.
> 
> I have no problem with going into my reasons or poor boundaries, if you are interested. I just don't want to intrude if you aren't looking for words from the WWs themselves.


Hi Annie,

Well, I guess what I'm looking for is the thing that may be identifiable during the courting phase.
I read a lot on here I think I know the reasons women give for cheating. I actually mean in a broad sense like low self esteem, childhood abuse, lack of communication. I realize these are moving targets so to speak but after all of the answers I feel like there's something that makes some women have an emotional bucket that has a hole in it. So it's an impossible task to make them feel loved therefore they seek love elsewhere when we get too busy or caught up in whatever in life.
So, Annie, in a broad sense what character trait or life experience outside of your husband/mariage contributed the greatest to your EA?


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

Jasel said:


> I love this site because it just convinced me even more to not bother with marriage. For men in today's age the negatives of marriage outway the positives. I'm 28 years old, single and I feel I have a bright future with a lot of good years ahead of me. Marriage just seems like an unnecessary risk. Especially with divorce being a 50/50 shot which women initiate almost 70% of the time anyway.
> 
> I just wish society would get off this "You have to get married to be happy" trip.
> 
> (It's not my intent to turn this into a "bash women" thread either. I've seen my fair share of women who get screwed over by men including my Mom by my Dad)


No matter what has happened in my marriage, it has been the single most fulfilling/satisfying experience/accomplishment of my life.
Don't get cynical so soon.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> There are two kinds of cheaters.
> 
> The one we usually think about are the serial cheaters who just cheat because they think they are entitled. They are broken people who should be avoided. Unfortunately we often do not know who they are until it's too late.
> 
> Then there are the people who cheat because their needs are not being met in their marriage. They get to the point where they are so burnt from not having their needs met that they become extremely selfish and cheat. These are the type of people who will usually work on a recovery once the affair is found out and they can work with their spouse to fix things. They usually do not repeat offend.


Seem like there could be a hybrid of those. For example, if someone cheats only after long periods of time in a relationship, but has done so in two or more relationships. 

At any rate, it sounds like the son in question should postpone proposing until they've graduated, gotten employment, lived together, etc. He probably thinks cheating or divorce is not something that could happen to him, when in reality it happens to so many of us.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Ive only read through page one of the posts and I think it mostly stems from low self esteem. Atleast in my case, if I were gonna cheat it would be because my husband doesnt show me much affection/love.

I was very much the same as your sons GF before I got married. I think part of it can be likened to being immature. As I got older I realized I didnt need to spend every waking moment with my H/BF.

After youve been married for awhile couples get comfortable and stop doing what they did when they were dating to make the other feel important to them. I think this also sparks a need to want to feel attractive and wanted and if someone is willing to give it to you....THEN.......thats when it happens.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Also, I dont think you can really know. Im sure alot of us here had no idea that the "things" we saw in our spouses would lead them to cheating...know what I mean?!


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> If you want to know why both men and women cheat, there are some books that both you and your son can read. If you want to teach him how to have a very good marriage the same books will teach him this. I have been teaching my children what these books say as I think it's very wise.
> 
> "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Harley
> 
> ...


Needs not being met is the reason for a conversation or at worst seperation not parking lot gymnastics. 

Most people don't have their needs met at some point in their marriage...which ones cheat? 
Selfish ones?
Low self esteem ones?

Know what I mean?


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> After youve been married for awhile couples get comfortable and stop doing what they did when they were dating to make the other feel important to them. I think this also sparks a need to want to feel attractive and wanted and if someone is willing to give it to you....THEN.......thats when it happens.


Agreed.

Only what SHOULD happen there is... an honest talk. If the urge doesn't
go away, then there's counseling. At the least, some honesty about the
position that the soon to be cheater is putting the soon to be BS in.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

dogman said:


> Most people don't have their needs met at some point in their marriage...which ones cheat?
> 
> *Selfish ones?
> Low self esteem ones?*


Yes and Yes.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Oh....one more reason?

Drug addiction. 

We see more and more hearty, healthy, happy housewives being turned into scummy, gutter dwelling meth wh0res by simply trying out drugs their toxic girlfriends tell them will help them lose weight.


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## BeenthereDunThat (Nov 27, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> As far as the reasons or justifications, I never set out to find an EA. just like Entropy said, many affairs start from naïveté. No one tells you when you get married, loose boundaries can lead to trouble! Sharing intimate details with the opposite sex leads to emotional bonding, which can lead to EAs which can lead to PAs and families being broken.
> 
> I found it easy to talk to this other guy who shared my interests in music and writing and books. Then when he started complimenting my looks, I was flattered. I hadn't slept with him so it was no big deal right? My husband doesn't want to hear about this show coming to town, but HE does! So it's ok to talk to him instead of my husband! Things like that made it easier to drop any kind of boundaries that I had.
> 
> ...


AnnieAsh, your story sound very familiar to me in that my WS followed the same path as you. I'm wondering if you can shed any light on how you were able to deal with/justify the breaking of your vows. Was it a case where you made yourself believe that you deserved to feel good and everything would eventually work out and the various hurts would pass?


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

Some of the people in this thread are greatly confused and have misapprehension about divorce. First of all females file for divorce roughly 3/4 of the time, but it's not because they "found someone better". Single mothers are one of the poorest groups in America, and the vast majority of the time they file for divorce is because of mental,physical abuse or infidelity (on the husbands part) or a combo of those things. In my experience women are more likely to tolerate a cheating spouse, and its not until the 3rd time or so that hubby is caught do they finally call it quits. When males file for divorce its usually because they were cheated on, or they found someone better. 

In addition the concept of monogamy is not entirely natural for human beings and scientists have proven this. To ignore the way the male has been designed via evolution and the female is ridiculous. Males are going to cheat more for biological/physical reasons, but while monogamy may fit the female more, they are not monogamous either. The reason for what seems like an increase in female monogamy is that current day people are less indoctrinated, religious etc. Because of that they are more inclined to indulge in their natural behavior and attend to their needs. 

However for someone to enter a monogamous relationship and cheat that is horrible and shows a direct lack of respect. All the reasons people listed in this thread about character flaws perfectly sum up a cheater. So while cheating in monogamous relationships is horrible and the cheater is "defective", the reasoning is not entirely unnatural. Btw i expect people to become more promiscuous as time goes on and its not really a bad thing in the long run of things. Life goes on


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Oh....one more reason?
> 
> Drug addiction.
> 
> We see more and more hearty, healthy, happy housewives being turned into scummy, gutter dwelling meth wh0res by simply trying out drugs their toxic girlfriends tell them will help them lose weight.


I am so glad you mentioned that bandit. I swear there are several women at the gym I go to that are on something. They can't even do a half decent workout because they act and move like they're stoned. Its unbelievable.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Goldmember357 said:


> the vast majority of the time they file for divorce is because of mental,physical abuse or infidelity (on the husbands part) or a combo of those things.
> 
> *I completely disagree. Many wives seem to file for divorce in their late 30's or early 40's because they do not feel fulfilled in the roles. In fact, it is so prevalent that it now has its own classification....the walk away wife syndrome.*
> 
> ...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

This all, now, makes so much more sense to me! I would greatly have to theorize that I, in some way, wasn't exactly meeting STBXW's emotional needs, so she took to the road to find it from two different men from her past: a "best friend" and co-worker of her deceased first husband, and an old high school flame/crush. Both of whom she had apparently never been intimate with before.

Judging by her discovered FB postings to them, it is more than apparent that she was the one that was "coming on to them" instead of vice-versa. That's evidenced by their mildly sexually- charged replies back to her, both praising her on her good looks and figure, and sexually provocotive repertoire, always requesting her most recent pics and such.

And this was all going on, unbeknownst to me while we were still living together, all while I thought that I was the only guy in the world that she could love; that there could be no desire in her heart for any man, other than myself! But I found myself believing her various stories of having to run the highways on "business matters," all while leaving me at home to take care of things in her absence.

Now for all of those who would say that "old dogs" can't be taught "new tricks," I'd richly have to retort, "Think again!"


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

bfree said:


> I completely disagree. Many wives seem to file for divorce in their late 30's or early 40's because they do not feel fulfilled in the roles. In fact, it is so prevalent that it now has its own classification....the walk away wife syndrome.


Well i am a divorce lawyer and have done this for quite some time as have many of my colleagues. My opinions are not shaped by talk about marriage, or "gossip". Just because TAM has seems to have an abundance of "walk always wives" does not mean that is the case in the general United States. 



bfree said:


> Better can mean a lot of things. If a man gets no sex from his wife for three years and decides to divorce in order to find someone better is he wrong?


Not at all. However in my personal experience men, especially wealthy men will find a more attractive female and divorce their wife. They will come take care of all legal things before hand, get advised and than drop divorce papers on the wife. They come to us and take care of all legal stuff beforehand as to assure that they can keep all (or about) all of their assets. 



bfree said:


> Yes I've also read the books that compare humans to bonobo apes. But it is all just a hypothesis. Nothing has been proven and evolution is biological and societal.


How so? we are the most sexual ape of the primate species. For millions of years our ancestors/common ancestors lived entirely different. 

Only a hypothesis? really? the statement "monogamy is unnatural" for humans is not a tentative explanation that needs testing. Thus how is it a hypothesis? It's been subjected to the scientific method.



bfree said:


> People becoming more promiscuous is not a bad thing? Please elaborate.


Because monogamy is unnatural for our species and eventually people can live in communities like they used to. Hunter gather communities were very self sufficient, with the implementation of property people turned greedy. We can operate just as well being non-monogamous as monogamous, promiscuity is in human nature. Sex feels good and its foolish to deny the self and people of pleasure all at the expense of them being indefinitely tied up with one individual they may not like. 

You may not like this view as most people do not because they have been programmed to oppose it. Most people are religious and don't believe evolution (for some odd reason), and they attempt to pronounce a distorted view of the world.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

F-102 said:


> And, as others have said, there is the "you go girl" syndrome, where women are reminded that they can indeed have it all: career, family, husband that they can "train" do do the housework, and then, after the week's over, the kids are in bed, and the husband's fed, they can go out on their GNO's and do a little "harmless" hooking up at the club, fully knowing that their girlfriends will cover for them because, "Hey, girlfriend-You deserve it!"
> 
> They also see that even if they do get caught, get outed, and do get divorced, then they can always hire a shark lawyer who will "get them everything", and as a bonus, their STBXH can pay for it all! They believe that they will indeed get the house, the car, child support, and that they will now be seen as "MILFs" and "Cougars" that ANY guy will hook up with.


Most women are *not* filing for divorce because they "Upgraded" most are left in a worse situation than before the divorce.



Entropy3000 said:


> He must choose a marriage partner wisely. He cannot expect a person to just change who they are when they get married. If he marries a party girl he cannot expect her to jst switch that off. Most will not, or only do that after the new wears off. But he needs to know what he wants in a partner and to not settle for less. We are capable of falling in love with many different people. Best to fall in love with a quality person though there are no garauntees.
> 
> I also suggest that the couple do His Needs Her Needs before marriage. They they find out about each others needs and set opposite sex boundaries that theuy agree on. He needs to understand that it is counterproductive to compromise his intergity here to be seen as a NIce Guy or to off as very liberal. He needs to be radically honest. He may only get one shot at this.
> 
> ...


Great Advice

Id also advice him to NOT marry a promiscuous girl. There is a direct correlation between number of sexual partners/promiscuous behavior and divorce rate. Promiscuous individuals are less inclined to be as suitable for long term monogamy given they have experimented, and broke the wall that humans constructed. That wall is the notion that monogamy is natural for our species, (Which its not). Promiscuous people are doing nothing wrong at all, its just that once you go down that path the brain has a hard time reverting back to socially conservative beliefs.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Oh....one more reason?
> 
> Drug addiction.
> 
> We see more and more hearty, healthy, happy housewives being turned into scummy, gutter dwelling meth wh0res by simply trying out drugs their toxic girlfriends tell them will help them lose weight.


Good Lord bandit. Hope that wasn't your XW's case.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

I was reading back though the post and selfish is a common thread. The funny thing is my wife always put our kids first and me second and herself way down the list. 

Looking back I did not see the change that was there. She became more me centered about the time her A started.


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## Ever-Man (Jan 25, 2013)

dogman said:


> I'm trying to give my son solid advice about red flags in a budding relationship and it occurred to me that the people of CWI could answer this best.
> 
> Other than a personality disorder, what is the number one reason women cheat in their marriage?
> 
> ...


Anyone is capable of cheating, and you may have no idea it is happening to you. Notice these RED FLAGS, and if you see them be on the look-out.


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

Numbersixxx said:


> Because they can.
> 
> They know that there is literally a line of men out there whose main goal in life is to get laid, as it somehow validates their masculinity. The fact that the woman in question is married is of no importance.
> 
> ...


VERY well stated! And it indicates why more and more young men are avoiding getting married as the risks far outweigh the benefits. Unfortunately for women, the opposite is true -- more women are wanting to get married.

But like my Dad said (who is 74 years old and married to his 2nd wife for over 30 years), he wouldn't get married nowadays unless the intent was to have children together. And even then it's a gamble.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Good Lord bandit. Hope that wasn't your XW's case.


No.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Men have been cheating for ages. Women still want to marry. I don't understand why men should be scared of marriage because of the increase of women cheating.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

There was a study done recently, that indicated all societies that were once great and powerful fell into decline once the the parent to child birthrate ratio fell below 2:3. 

This means that if every male and female pair in the United States, England, Canada, Australia, etc. etc., falls below this ratio...that society is doomed to decline and dissappear in just a few generations. 

I think here in the U.S. we are currently at 2:2.5. This means if more U.S. men and women don't start producing at least three children, the U.S. could become another Italy or Greece... where the ratio is more like 2:1. And you all have witnessed the hell those countries are going through now with their bankrupt economies.

I dunno about all of you, but that scares the sh!t out of me. 

We need to turn this trend around, and its not going to happen if young males are not willing to stick their necks out and marry and father children. 

I have personally talked to several young college age men in their early twenties, who not only do not actively date, but have no desire to date or marry. If some kid had told me that back in the 1980s.... I would have laughed at him. Now its seems to be more and more the norm. 

And for the life of me I can't blame them.


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> There was a study done recently, that indicated all societies that were once great and powerful fell into decline once the the parent to child birthrate ratio fell below 2:3.
> 
> This means that if every male and female pair in the United States, England, Canada, Australia, etc. etc., falls below this ratio...that society is doomed to decline and dissappear in just a few generations.
> 
> ...


I have two nephews, ages 18 and 21. The 18 year old has a girlfriend but she's broken his heart twice, only to swoop back in when he's found someone else. Stupidly he's taken her back both times.

The 21 year old has been on dates, had one serious girlfriend back in high school but really hasn't dated all that much in college -- mainly just going to parties and hanging out. He's a good kid so I don't think he's just 'hooking up' but has said that most of the women he knows are so flighty and self-absorbed that it's just a matter of time before they move onto another guy who will buy them more expensive gifts, take them on nice vacations or is at a higher social status. 

He's stated several times that the money and time one has to invest in women his age just isn't worth it. He'd like to meet someone special one day and marry, have kids, etc. but so far he says the caliber of women who are smart, attractive and down to earth are rare at best. 

IMO, this speaks to the level to which even young men place beauty and women on such a pedestal that even 'average' women think they're hot stuff. I can certainly attest to that fact when going to the clubs/restaurants. Even the 4 or 5's think they're Paris Hilton and should be treated as such. Yet they complain that they can't find a good guy.....<sigh>


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> Men have been cheating for ages. Women still want to marry. I don't understand why men should be scared of marriage because of the increase of women cheating.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ummmm, because in most cases the man has either earned more or saved more of his money and with no-fault divorce and the general disposition of the courts towards women and against men, his ex-wife could take him for a LOT of money. Heck, it happens even if it isn't a nasty divorce. In my State, once you put your wife on the home's deed, half of it is automatically hers, even if she didn't contribute one nickle to it. 

And we won't even get started about lifetime alimony, child support, etc.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Agreed. Women cheat for the same reason men do:
> 
> 1) Immaturity


I don't think I've ever had the luxury of being immature at any time in my entire life. On the contrary, I have always had an enormous amount of expectations and responsibilities placed upon me. Some were my own obligations and some, rightfully, belonged to others. 


bandit.45 said:


> 2) Inability to communicate feelings and needs to their partner


In my marriage it was never my inability to communicate my feelings and needs. It was the refusal/inability of my spouse to listen to and respond to my needs. My repeated attempts to communicate fell on deaf ears.


bandit.45 said:


> 3) Misdirected responses to childhood trauma


I didn't have a, particularly, traumatic childhood. I had two parents who married for life, who provided all of my needs and many of my wants. I did have a brother who created a great deal of drama for our family and, as a result, I did have a lot of responsibility placed on me. I felt that my parents had somewhat unrealistic expectations where I was concerned... but, not what I would call overly traumatic.


bandit.45 said:


> 4) Bad parenting


See above......


bandit.45 said:


> 5) Selfishness


Yes, my EA/PA was, undoubtedly, the single most selfish thing that I ever did in my entire life. Never in my life before and never since has anyone who knows me well, ever described me a being a selfish person. I am a natural born caregiver through and through. Giving to others and serving others is how I have always sought to gain my own sense of self-worth. 


bandit.45 said:


> 6) Inflated ego


I can't imagine this being the case since I have a tremendous need to gain the approval of others.


bandit.45 said:


> 7) Narcissism


Again, my happiness and self worth comes from serving others. I do not seek the admiration of others, but I do seek their approval. I want to help others. I want to make other people happy. I don't know if this makes me narcissistic or not. But, the way I read the definition, I don't think so.



bandit.45 said:


> 8) Lust..........LUST, LUST, LUST.


If by lust you mean the desire for intimacy.... then, yes, I am guilty. I do desire to be in a relationship that is, both, emotionally and physically intimate. Although, it is my desire to be in a single monogamous relationship that meets my needs for intimacy and where I am able to meet the needs of my partner, as well. It can become problematic when your partner no longer desires any type of intimacy with you. As was the case in my own marriage prior to my EA/PA.

I think that my point in commenting is that I don't think that, as much as many BS's would like to believe, there is a one size fits all "type" of woman who cheats. I do think that certain personality types, coupled with specific circumstances can make some individuals more susceptible and more vulnerable than others to having an affair. 

But to simply try to paint all WS's with the selfish, narcissistic, inability to communicate, sex-crazed, doesn't care for her children/family brush is far too simplistic and does, both, WS's and BS's a huge disservice.

*Edited to add this.... as I just read back through the thread and discovered this little jewel! 
*
Good Lord, Bandit, (I'm still glad you're back on TAM, you ol' curmudgeon! ;-)



bandit.45 said:


> Oh....one more reason?
> 
> Drug addiction.
> 
> We see more and more hearty, healthy, happy housewives being turned into scummy, gutter dwelling meth wh0res by simply trying out drugs their toxic girlfriends tell them will help them lose weight.


Not that one, either.............. at least not for me.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

I agree with EI 100%
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

Mid life crisis (fear she is losing her sex appeal).
An emotionally absent husband.


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## gettingout (Jan 15, 2013)

Chiming back in here....

First of all, I think single people in their 20s should be taken off the table. Cheating? I wish I had read Dan Savage when I was that young - it might have saved my marriage, frankly. 

It think that should be a time for experimenting and figuring out what makes you happy BEFORE you put a ring on it - sorry for being blunt.

Second, I recommend the book When Good People Have Affairs.....lists something like 15-18 different types...I forget how many.


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## JustPuzzled (Dec 12, 2012)

EI said:


> I don't think I've ever had the luxury of being immature at any time in my entire life. On the contrary, I have always had an enormous amount of expectations and responsibilities placed upon me. Some were my own obligations and some, rightfully, belonged to others.
> 
> In my marriage it was never my inability to communicate my feelings and needs. It was the refusal/inability of my spouse to listen to and respond to my needs. My repeated attempts to communicate fell on deaf ears.
> 
> ...


Odd, technical question, EI. How do you do this multi-quote thing? When I quote someone's post I can only seem to do it once.

Am I thick?

I love your posts, by the way.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Not gonna read the entire thread, but when my ex cheated its because she felt it was the universe pointing her in the direction she was supposed to go to find herself.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> As in why was he able to get between me and my husband so easily? The gulf between us then and now is huge. There is very little intimacy or connection. I felt unappreciated, alone, and eager to have someone who wanted to be with me. It started off as wanting someone with whom to share things.


When it came down to it, you showed character and came for help and did the right thing.

You need to deal with the gap and an A never helps.


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## dgtal (Jun 11, 2010)

I found an answer to that question reading "Women Infidelity" by Michelle Langley
Google it, interesting


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm sure that if you querried my STBXW about the reasons for her infidelity, she would initially deny ever doing it. Then after that was disproven to her, then she would probably stammer into giving up some rather flimsy, self-serving reason.

Which in answering as such would only serve to make whatever she said into either something grossly unbelievable or just an outright lie!


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