# Living in limbo



## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

Hello, trying something new here for new input. Been through lots of counseling, books, reading blogs, on and on and am in no better shape today then when this all started.
A year and a half ago my wife found out I had been attending gentlemen's clubs(strip club).
We've been married 20 yrs, two kids,some ups and downs but in last 5yrs, pretty stable,(always stable for the kids) and in the last year before this, we were doing better than ever. We felt much more in love,stable,looking ahead to future,sex was getting even better(always good).
Looking to continue to spice things up, I went to one of these clubs. I had only been one time before at a bachelor party 25yrs ago. However, there was a time my wife mentioned she might be open to it,so I went to check it out. Slow night first time and by 2nd time, I really wasn't sure I could see us going. However, by that time I had accepted a lap dance and became intrigued/excited by the experience. About once a month for 1 hr at a time for the next year, I kept going. On some occasions there was touching, inappropriate for a married man. NO other involvement,no affairs, no intercourse.
My wife found out and was devastated- cheating - and keeping it from her - lying-although, I came out with it ALL , when she confronted me with suspicions.
That was 1.5 years ago. We still go to counseling and if anything, she is closer to leaving than ever but doesn't seem to be able to settle on staying together or splitting. This limbo is getting a bit much for me and I don't know what to do anymore. My position has always been the same. I love her and want to stay married to her. However, at this point, I just want her to feel better and for us to carry on more healthily whether that is together or not.
So, I'm throwing out there for thoughts- what would you do..if you we're her? .....if you we're me?
Thanks.....let 'er rip


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

Frank lee said:


> Hello, trying something new here for new input. Been through lots of counseling, books, reading blogs, on and on and am in no better shape today then when this all started.
> A year and a half ago my wife found out I had been attending gentlemen's clubs(strip club).
> We've been married 20 yrs, two kids,some ups and downs but in last 5yrs, pretty stable,(always stable for the kids) and in the last year before this, we were doing better than ever. We felt much more in love,stable,looking ahead to future,sex was getting even better(always good).
> Looking to continue to spice things up, I went to one of these clubs. I had only been one time before at a bachelor party 25yrs ago. However, there was a time my wife mentioned she might be open to it,so I went to check it out. Slow night first time and by 2nd time, I really wasn't sure I could see us going. However, by that time I had accepted a lap dance and became intrigued/excited by the experience. About once a month for 1 hr at a time for the next year, I kept going. On some occasions there was touching, inappropriate for a married man. NO other involvement,no affairs, no intercourse(insert Clintonism here).
> ...


I could see where you went off course somewhat however its not like you were carrying on an a full -blown affair, If she wants out so bad why is she staying or still there ??? seems like she wants to punish you yet not actually leave. Thats my take on this situation, If after a couple of years of MC I think I would say hey either sh!t or get off the pot but thats me. Based on what you have shared I would say either we work on this or I am gone 100 % or nothing . I am sure there are better answers but thats my feelings 

Good Luck


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Frank

I do not equate strip clubs or lap dances as Infidelity.

Addiction to strip clubs and p!ssing away money however is an issue.

If you are clean and sober from the strip scene and have no desire to return to it then I think you and your wife need to sit down and make some decisions regarding yur marriage and family.

Punishment time is over.

Now it is time to act like adults and parents.

HM64


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Did you tell your wife you were going to "research" strip clubs in an effort to spice up your marriage? Because if I were a woman and you told me that - I'd think you were taking me for an idiot. 

I think too, that the length of time, money, and effort you've invested in your research has got to have her wondering about what else she doesn't know about you. 

Perhaps you should change MC and also visit a sex addiction counselor for yourself - just to get their take on it. Because from my POV I don't fault your wife for the limbo you're in. I'm sure she is even more conflicted than you.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm a woman and if I found out my husband had been to a strip club (a place where you go to look at other women's stuff), I'd feel degraded, unwanted, unattractive, unappreciated, discarded, ugly etc. You touched and interacted with another half dressed woman. I don't know if that's cheating (it is to me but that's just MHO), but I understand why your wife feels the way she does. 
I also understand "living in limbo" from your point of view, I'm a cheater. These things do take time, sometimes they take a long time. They take a lot of patience, understanding and communicating.
It might be time for a talk about where your marriage is and where it is headed.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

My wife and I have different levels of perversion. I get turned on by things she wouldn't care for (even getting a BJ is rare for me and takes some cajoling). We have had to work on that. 

I was also addicted to porn. I looked at pics every day. I didn't show them to her or compare her to them. But she knew about it and didn't say anything. However, during that time she harbored resentment over it. It made her feel unattractive. Like she wasn't enough. I severely triggered her insecurities. 

I need to make her feel desirable and desired. All women need this or there will be something missing from the relationship. 

What do you do to make your wife feel desired? It needs to be more than just sex. Sex is nice, but you get gratified too. It's equal. What do you do that makes her feel desirable?


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

Thanks all. I think you are reading the situation fairly well. I did not tell her in advance. She sure doesn't trust and does wonder what else might be up but I've told her everything, I have not gone since(couldn't imagine doing that now).
I think she does believe the initial motivation and it is truthful. She was open to the idea( not anymore, of course) so she could understand that train of thought. I just screwed up. Poor judgment and lack of control in an environment I wasn't familiar with(& apparently not prepared for)
Added info, after the initial 3months of sleeping separately, we seemed to be mending..back together. It got better for a year and then, a year into it(5months ago) she says she still doesn't feel right and I move back into the guestroom. We've been essentially separated that way since...no intimacy....just trying to be friends.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Is your wife the "vindictive type" a person who doesn't forgive easily? Are either of you on antidepressants or other meds? What does your MC say (is it a him or her?)


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Is there a chance she has started an affair with someone else since she felt that you were "cheating"?


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## NatureDave (Feb 19, 2013)

Between the perceived infidelity (whether lapdances and inappropriate touching you consider infidelity or not), the dishonesty, and the humiliation, you dealt your marriage a near death blow. It's unfair for you to expect her to "just get over it."

To get past this, the goal cannot be to get back to where the marriage was before cheating. That marriage is now gone forever. Now the hopeful news, your goal should be to make the marriage BETTER than before.

Read "His needs, her needs" by Willard Harley, and "Surviving an Affair" while you're at it.

The only way to restore trust is to prove it everyday. Always let her know your whereabouts, let her see all credit card and bank receipts, be an open book.

Then you need to start meeting her emotional needs, which you cannot do living in the guesthouse.

Read the books...


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

michzz said:


> So why be glib about exactly what happened at the strip club?
> ----------------


I don't see minimizing in his account of what happened. I'm sure two years dealing with it taught him to be very careful about chosing carefully the words and setting the facts straight.
He didn't get busted yesterday so to speak.


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## Bonnie (Nov 16, 2012)

well. As a woman. I would probably never forgive you......that's just me though. My husband pushed my boundaries with his little phony second Facebook profile-whole other story- but like I told him, and I cant speak for all women, but for me "once you burn me, that's it, there's no fixing it" I would be absolutely furious if I found out my husband was doing that, and then spending money on bs like that. You might have to just work around it, and she may never completely forgive you. to me that is cheating, sorry. I actually used to be in that line of work, and its cheating to me, and I would never get involved with a guy that did that as a recreation.....


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

More good input. Is she vindictive? She does have that side but when it comes to actual behavior, not so much. However, I don't think she is a particularly forgiving person(not as much as she thinks...further non related history on that)
Could she be having an affair? It's possible. There has been circumstantial evidence but time-wise and from her words, it seems not(I try not to get eaten up with that paranoia)
Glib about my attendance at the clubs? Mostly, I was trying to keep it to the point, info only, short as I could. I have not made any attempt to minimize this for 1.5 yrs. it's horrible and a violation of the marriage- it's cheating. Is it an affair? Did I have some sort of(warped) limits to which I would not go, like- not wanting an affair, not wanting to make love with anyone else but my wife- yes. After this much time and all we've gone thru, yeah, I'm ready to start pointing out the things that it is NOT as well.
I certainly don't expect her to "just get over it" but with me or without me it has to be gotten past sometime. Limbo forever- really!? 
I am gleaning out of this that the nature of it can still take this kind of time so,thx again. This is one of the things I'm trying to get more of a feel for.
(Ps-if I didn't make the Clinton reference, someone else would have, given my statement. Don't mean to be glib but I've cycled thru many tears and heartache thru this now and need to find a little more strength and cope, lighten up where I can,even if poking fun at myself- not fun about the hurt I've caused)


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

Bonnie said:


> well. As a woman. I would probably never forgive you......that's just me though. My husband pushed my boundaries with his little phony second Facebook profile-whole other story- but like I told him, and I cant speak for all women, but for me "once you burn me, that's it, there's no fixing it" I would be absolutely furious if I found out my husband was doing that, and then spending money on bs like that. You might have to just work around it, and she may never completely forgive you. to me that is cheating, sorry. I actually used to be in that line of work, and its cheating to me, and I would never get involved with a guy that did that as a recreation.....


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

Well Bonnie, you and she speak very similar about this and I do understand taking that stance. I could very well be permanently "ruined" for her. It does seem that way. However, the lines of topic can be blurry. Not blurry that this was a violation but.......for example....she will accept and watch porn. It does not seem to bother her if I do. She was not against going to these clubs with me(at one time). 
I'm not sure I condemn or condone such places or such thoughts and behaviors like this that anyone has. To each their own. I think "consensual" is part of the bottom line here and I failed on that as well. We are not swingers, nor ever wanted to be. I've never had the slightest inclination to cheat on her before stepping in there and in that manner


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I do think that lap dances are infidelity. 

If someone came here and said that all they did was to rub themself all over someone else, or have someone else rubbing all over them.... just about everyone on this forum would say that they cheated. The fact that it happened is a strip club lap dance does not make it less of an issue.

And the OP did this repeatedly for a year or more.

Frank.. it takes 2-5 years for the betrayed spouse to recover from infidelity.

What have you done to prove to your wife that you are trustworthy and will no longer deceive her like this?

How did you pay for all of your strip club fun?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Hell, Frank, it seems you don't understand women and relationships very well. You thought that because at one time she was open to visiting strip clubs WITH you, you took it on yourself to do a months long research including lap dances (stuffing bills into crotches too i suppose). 

Listen, wives (and husbands) get upset if the other partner watches a DVR of a show by themselves when they agreed to both watch it. 

This is far more serious than that bud. But do look into changing MC - you haven't said what your MC's take is on this whole thing.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

You had a second, secret life.


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

k - a few statements about how I treat her. I strive to be more romantic in action (which I feel I do accomplish some and she has many memories she shares about that) but verbally, I feel have always and consistently expressed how much I love her and think she is beautiful(more so than she tends to reciprocate). We were more and more looking forward to " dating" again as our kids grow and had been doing so. Currently, I do the same ,mixed with everything from much much much talk, hundreds and hundreds of apologies and sorrow, begging for forgiveness to leaving her alone when needed(of course). I constantly let her know where I am at all times. Send pictures to prove it. 
I don't dispute the cheating nature of this. How CAN you PROVE trustworthiness after this? All I can say outside of what I'm doing is, I've never done anything like it before. I prefer to live as an open book. It is easier that way and better. That's why I spilled it all when confronted. I didn't want to have to carry it around and truth was the only chance we had of getting " real" about this and getting thru it correctly.


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Hell, Frank, it seems you don't understand women and relationships very well. You thought that because at one time she was open to visiting strip clubs WITH you, you took it on yourself to do a months long research including lap dances (stuffing bills into crotches too i suppose).
> 
> Listen, wives (and husbands) get upset if the other partner watches a DVR of a show by themselves when they agreed to both watch it.
> 
> This is far more serious than that bud. But do look into changing MC - you haven't said what your MC's take is on this whole thing.


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

Well, walkonmars, can't argue with you there. Raised in a female only house, most friendships and companionships have been women and I'm sure there's still lots I " don't get" .
The " research" stopped after the 2 nd time and as someone put, started to become almost like a small second life and was so different than anything I've ever been. It's with these thoughts, I knew it had to end and did.
See my statement about consensual to address the mistake about WITH her vs what I did. Your colorful statement about " stuffing bills into crotches" is starting to sound like her as well. An escalation of response developing?
MC take on it is for wife to get help. MC and individual counselors for each of us have been women. MC seems to be working for us to reconcile. Not going very well in that direction.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Frank lee said:


> *MC take on it is for wife to get help.* MC and individual counselors for each of us have been women. MC seems to be working for us to reconcile. Not going very well in that direction.


Did your MC say what the bolded statement means? Did she mean through IC? 

Before you do to much more (seems you're doing all you can FTM) recommend to your wife that she gets a full physical checkup. It may be that she has other issues too that are aggravating this sitch.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How did you pay for the lap dances, drinks, etc at the strip club?

Did you pay cash? Credit card?

Does your wife have complete access to all bank accounts, credit card statments, etc? Do you bring home all reciepts so she can see if you are withdrawing cash? 

Does your wife have the passwords to your cell and all online accounts?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You need to treat this the same way you would treat it if you had gone out and picked up a hooker and screwed her. Because in your wife's eyes, what you did is just as bad. It doesn't matter what you or we think, it matters what she thinks.

The suggestion of His Needs Her Needs is a good one. There are many books about getting over infidelity, what the BS needs from the WS, etc. I suggest you check out the links in my signature and go from there. 

My Story talks about my own R - we're over 3 years out and are doing very well. What my fWH has done is in there. There are also some book links at the end.

Understanding the Pain will tell you how your wife feels.

For CWI Newbies will also help explain what you need to do.

Someone said something about sex addiction - I don't think that really applies here, unless there have been previous times in your life when you turned to something sexual as a method to cope with something.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Hope, is Understanding the Pain a book? 
Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

And OP has yet to say if he actually got a BJ from one of these girls? Just hints around... Am I missing something here? 

OP, I understand the pain of feeling like your spouse lead a double life. It's an incredibly horrendous feeling. You need to cut her some slack. It's like the very person you felt like you knew the most in life and you didn't know them at all. 
And make her feel desirable. I'm sure she thinks about your hands all over those strippers. My husband didn't then and still doesn't and I feel worse than ever. In retrospect, you would think I'd been the one out cheating to get some approval. He cheated with a nineteen year old and I suspect a couple twenty year old girls that he won't admit to. If you think that doesn't screw with a person's head... I'd had two kids! Doesn't really make you feel extremely sexual. You've got to make her feel like a million bucks. Flirt with her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Frank Lee get the book Surviving An Affair by Dr Harley.


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

No bjs. Clintonism comment not taken as I meant it. Full access to all accounts. Limited time/ $ spent. 
I constantly adore and desire my wife and express that. Thx for validating that behavior. The struggle with limbo is that your never sure if the appropriate behavior is to let go or hang on depending on what is truly best for the hurt party....sometimes showing desire doesn't seem appropriate


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

It sounds like this issue has surfaced other resentments/insecurities of your wife's.

I suspect that your MC isn't very good. You can't really say much about visiting strip clubs that would take many sessions of MC.

Your wife's resentment is being cause by something else IMHO.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Frank,

I disagree about the lap dances... I consider them as being unfaithful. You are letting another woman arouse you by touching you (through your clothes)... You also did it without your wife's permission... 

You are stepping to an open marriage which means divorce... I would never share my girlfriend or wife with anyone and if she did what you did, I would go ballistic.

I'm not equating what you did as having an affair, but yes I believe it is being unfaithful... The 'I did it for her'... yeah, I don't believe that and I don't think she does either. You were letting yourself go and getting something you didn't really get from your marriage...

Spin it any way you want, but I think you need to own it. It may be true that you want more out of your sex life, but you aren't going about it the right way.

Don't spin the issue. Own it and then work with her.


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## catfan (Jan 12, 2013)

*Re: Re: Living in limbo*



FourtyPlus said:


> I'm a woman and if I found out my husband had been to a strip club (a place where you go to look at other women's stuff), I'd feel degraded, unwanted, unattractive, unappreciated, discarded, ugly etc. You touched and interacted with another half dressed woman. I don't know if that's cheating (it is to me but that's just MHO), but I understand why your wife feels the way she does.
> .


I agree as a woman to this, it would be hard to overcome feeling so unwanted and ugly.
How can you help your wife feeling better about:
A. Her self image in your marriage
B. Her broken trust in you as her husband

She likely is constantly doubting herself, you and your marriage. I would too, really.
Do you speak about this openly in therapy or does your wife go there by herself?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> Hope, is Understanding the Pain a book?
> Thanks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, it's one of the links in my signature


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

catfan said:


> I agree as a woman to this, it would be hard to overcome feeling so unwanted and ugly.
> How can you help your wife feeling better about:
> A. Her self image in your marriage
> B. Her broken trust in you as her husband
> ...


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

catfan - we both go to MC together. have been for 1.5 yrs. we've talked about pretty much everything until it's gotten repetitive and to the point of needing to NOT talk about it at times. We also have both done IC as well. I certainly understand how the effect of this causes her to feel unwanted, untrusting. I must admit that despite this, at times I still find it hard to fully fathom that she would continue to feel unattractive to me becasue we have gone over this lots & I constantly desire her, tell her this, tell her how beautiful I think she is, how desirable to me she is - I've always been like that and continue to with even more vigor. We haven't been intimate since last year. The lack of trust and emotional intimacy - passion & love - really sucks. i'm starting to get used to the lack of sex. There doesn't seem to be and end in sight to living this 1/2 a marriage we now have.


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

To further address a couple posters points:
Is the MC any good? I dont' know. We like her but I'm not sure what to expect to get out of it. I've never done counseling before. The only benefit I've really seen is it's good to have a 3rd party witness to 'ground' the communications & help give them focus. Otherwise, haven't really gotten anything out of it that we couldn't have found in books. I had an IC who was just fine as well but it got to where I felt that wasn't going anywhere either. Frankly, I expected more bluntness & candidness. "What were you thinking!?" Give me some tough questions etc. but it just seems like a bunch of talk over the same things that got out in the first couple sessions. That's part of why I'm posting here - need more brutal honesty - want to push some more progress, different thoughts - anything to move past the torture of this limbo.

New information(mixed with more history on the wife's side of things) : Just found out she is having an affair. Within 2-3 months of this coming out (DEC2011) she made connections with people on craigslist & started having sex chat with them. I was able to find out about this & confronted her as I saw she was discussing meeting with one of them(for all I know she had already & may have continued to have these hooks up all along). When confronted, she said she stopped. I put it down for a long time but had lots of 'circumstantial evidence" popping up. When I asked her (in detail - because I know I have to be specific) if she continued that behavior or anything like it, she adamantly said no - nothing - said that in front of the MC too. Well, turns out she has hooked up with someone else.
This sucks...


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

So Frank are you saying that your wife equates you go to strip clubs to her having intercourse with a man?

Because if that is what you are saying your wife has a strange sense of values......


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Hang on. A WS will lie then lie then lie again. I don't think they ever come 100% clean.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Oh dear. Big shock. It wasn't the strip clubs after all. It wasn't a needy wife after all. It was a lying, low life, cheater looking after her own back.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Yep, totally different ballgame now. Here you've been eating sh*t for over a year, only to find out that you've played for a sucker.

You're probably feeling a million different things now, but I hope one of them is righteous anger. I understand why *a* wife would be very hurt and feel betrayed by you going to a strip club; it may not be infidelity, per se, but it's not terribly far removed from it, either. But here's *your* wife, who lets and maybe even encourages you to feel like a total sh*t about the situation for a very long time, while she's engaging in no-doubt-about-it-straight-up infidelity.

I'd be pissed, and I'd likely ask her to leave for at least a while. I wouldn't want to look at her for a good while.


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

Hey - what's "WS" (lots of acronyms on blogs I don't know. I have never really done this blogging)
I will own some of this cause I 'threw the first stone' but an initial irritation (I'm sure of many more to come) is that she is perfectly willing to let that be the only stance. She's leaning toward being indignant about it as if she were justified & it's all my fault. This has been a pattern in our marriage anyway. The "fault' pretty much always comes back to me regardless of topic(contention) or her behavior.
Another thought/point that keeps going through my mind(that may have no real point here) is that, I have never actually been able to flat out lie to her face or to direct questions about anything - ever. Yes, I definitley lied by ommission & not telling her about the clubs I went to but when confronted - I put it all out (for reasosn discussed in prior post) Here, I have asked her direct questions many, many times (& in front of MC) about if she is cheating - & she can flat out lie over and over right to my face. She says she had stopped things with this guy even before I found out as we had been getting along & she was reconsidering reconciling. She says they never had sex but he told her he loved her. She says she didnt' say it back and all they did was some necking in his truck and 3rd base petting. Of course, How hell do I believe any that! My intuition (& circumstantial evidence) had been right all along. I'm going to stop doubting it.
Ah folks, such work this stuff is. Rather than perfect matches, I tend to believe in choices & hard work, understanding compatability etc. There's no reason why we couldnt fix all this & carry on toward the next 20 yrs & the dreams we have had and have already achieved together. It could have been fixed a yr ago if the strength of mind(& heart) would have made the choice but we are weak insecure creatures that may just putz away what becomes too hard to understand & takes an amount & type of work that becomes hard to see. We can likely each move on & get happy again but it is a choice & doesn't have to be that way..
i never wanted this to end. 
It still is and I guess will always remain a little hard to believe I screwed up like this. Within ups & downs, it still had been pretty much a dream come true up 'til now


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Frank, don't for one second own any part of her decision to cheat, and likewise immediately shut down any attempt by your wife to place any of the blame on you. She chose to cheat, and that decision is 100% on her.

She had other options. She could have forgiven you, she could have divorced you, she could have chosen any one of a number of paths. But she willingly chose the one that was the most dishonorable and destructive.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

I dunno... She may have never cheated if he hadn't broken her trust and self esteem first. She was looking for validation that she was good enough cause her own husband didn't show her that by going out to strip clubs and getting lap dances. I haven't revenge cheated, but I can definitely see how someone in this situation could cause I get the pain and humiliation. I feel sorry for her, she now has the baggage of what you did and all the feelings that come with it plus the guilt of what she did in return. You kinda brought this upon yourself, she may have never done these things...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## catfan (Jan 12, 2013)

*Re: Re: Living in limbo*



hurtingbadly said:


> I dunno... She may have never cheated if he hadn't broken her trust and self esteem first. She was looking for validation that she was good enough cause her own husband didn't show her that by going out to strip clubs and getting lap dances. I haven't revenge cheated, but I can definitely see how someone in this situation could cause I get the pain and humiliation. I feel sorry for her, she now has the baggage of what you did and all the feelings that come with it plus the guilt of what she did in return. You kinda brought this upon yourself, she may have never done these things...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. What she did isn't ok, and the worst is that she lied about it. But you not telling her about the strip clubs, lies too.
You missed something in your marriage, you went to strip clubs and had numerous naked women hump you.
She missed something in her marriage and looked for it in a one on one relationship.

Still the strippers sound way cheaper, I'm sorry....

What she did is wrong, but your behaviour surely made her look outside the marriage.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

You all are seriously going to tell this guy that it was his fault that his wife cheated on him?

I couldn't possibly disagree more.

How about if I argue that it was his wife's fault that he went to the strip club? That she should have been more attractive?


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## LostCPA (Apr 15, 2011)

Cheating is never justified no matter what the other spouse has done. The OP certainly has to own his share of responsibility for the condition of this marriage, but he is in NO way responsible for his WW’s cheating. This idea of he did it first, so she is justified is just childish. I have heard that justification from my children. “But, Dad, he did it first.” Of course they were about 8yo at the time.


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## catfan (Jan 12, 2013)

*Re: Re: Living in limbo*



GTdad said:


> You all are seriously going to tell this guy that it was his fault that his wife cheated on him?
> 
> I couldn't possibly disagree more.
> 
> How about if I argue that it was his wife's fault that he went to the strip club? That she should have been more attractive?


That is probably how his wife feels, yes 
I don't say he felt that way, but it would make insecure women feel like that exactly. It surely would make me feel that way.
But the decent thing is to end the relationship then, not to cheat. And sorry, I consider a full nude lapdance with touching cheating too. Esp. for that long without telling.


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## Bluecollar (May 23, 2013)

I'm going to say no, it isn't cheating...provided we've been told the complete and true story. Clubs run the risk of getting shut down if they find out the girls are doing more than entertaining but I suppose it does happen.
HOWEVER...it is very inconsiderate of you being a married man. 
Being the younger one of my group of friends, I've been to my share of bachelor parties that involved a strip club, but out of respect for my GF and now wife I never went to one after that nor for my own bachelor party. 
She now feels put down and you have a lot of repairs to do, hopefully she hasn't had a revenge affair.
The first thing that comes to my mind is, she wants to feel wanted, and you get excited to see strippers. I say you have a heart to heart talk with her and have HER be your stripper.

SORRY. I missed page 3 for some reason. UGH.


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

what a mess - eh? just when I thought it couldn't get messier. I DO consider what I did cheating - the physical violation. I've never even remotely considered having an affair with anyone outside the marriage that involved sex(outside this exp), intimacy & the emotion that comes with it. The clubs were sexual excitement - that's it. It was nice having women even "pretend" to come on to me and be sexual around me. My wife only really started to outwardly act that way in the last year - just prior to when I started this. That new level of sexaulity coming from her, was part of the inspiration - played totally wrong and gone totally awry. Sex has always been good & I know she is into it when we're there but I don't consider her to have ever been very 'pro-active' about it.
Of course, I have to consider that I brought this upon myself but I think the argument does hold - I didn't bring ALL of this on myself. As many here agree - 2 wrongs don't make a right. Her choice is a worsening not a direction to reconciliation. She indicates, she would have left anyway if it weren't for the kids. We had agreed not to do anyting like this until we more formally separated. Her ability to lie like this has me, of course, questioning many of her words and actions.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

My own set of values here: I can't image a marriage where lap dances would NOT be considered cheating. Apparently your wife feels the same way.

Edit: OMG somewhere I missed the whole "she cheated" posts. Anyway, same thing about lap dances. Ugh


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

She has played you. She has lied by acts of commission and omission. She has used you. 

I am ridiculously, naively, pro marriage, but you should question whether there is anything worth saving here.

Your cheating, betraying, lying, wife is that worst of all things: entitled.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

catfan said:


> That is probably how his wife feels, yes


Talk about blame****ing. Exactly the same can be told about his lap dances.
Ridiculous.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

> Her ability to lie like this has me, of course, questioning many of her words and actions.


It should.

You probably only know the tip of the truth.

You decide if it is worth digging for all the truth.

But you should question her.

And stop blaming yourself. It takes two to make a marriage.
But it only takes one to break it.

And I do not think lap dances can spread a STD or get a girl pregnant but her infidelity certainly can so get yourself checked out.

And guess what?

She has already screwed your kids over by her actions.

HM


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

OP, you didn't technically cheat but you did lie. Either way there's no excuse for your wife escalating the situation as an excuse to cheat. Do not own that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Well then, that a horse of an entirely different color!

What you did - was not okay. 

But what she's doin'??? NO WAY, NO HOW. 

So, she's having intimacy with others - and you're beating the snot out of little frank nightly? FERGITABOUTIT

Give her an ultimatum. - and that's being generous!

If it were me - her bags would be packed, the bank accts split, and a divorce petition would be en route.

oh, one last thing: stop wastin' $ on MC.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

You weren't in limbo you were being cheated and gaslighted. Average "betrayed spouse" stuff.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

I'll say it again, she probably wouldn't have gone this route had the strippers not made her feel less. Sounds like she was looking for approval. Just like you in a way, men and women just work differently. You admitted it was nice having the strippers pretend to come on to you, you were seeking approval, just like her. Maybe this is worth working on, I dunno. Seems like you enjoyed the validation and then after she felt rejected, she looked for validation herself. Isn't this what most cheaters are after? Think about it, you both did basically the same thing. But you put it all in motion. 

BTW, I've learned alot over the last couple years... In response to an earlier post strip clubs do offer more! What do you think the VIP rooms are for?!?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

yeh - I hear ya. lots of lies and pain over a good deal of time now though... We made a specific agreement not to do anything like that until formally separated or divorced - for the kids sake. It was a rare, new, trust building agreement. 
Today I feel (& several here seem to agree) pretty much like a sucker. First an idiot - now a sucker....
think I'll ride a rollercoaster while sitting in this limbo.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Frank lee said:


> yeh - I hear ya. lots of lies and pain over a good deal of time now though... We made a specific agreement not to do anything like that until formally separated or divorced - for the kids sake. It was a rare, new, trust building agreement.
> Today I feel (& several here seem to agree) pretty much like a sucker. First an idiot - now a sucker....
> think I'll ride a rollercoaster while sitting in this limbo.


I'll agree that it sucks to be lied to. I was lied to for almost a decade. WS tricked me into thinking he was very against cheating and thought it disgusting what some of his friends did. Now I know I was a made a fool for all those years. His buddy covered for him, talk about humiliating. He's still withholding things, you'll never get the full truth. They never admit to all of it, so be prepared. And to be honest I'm not so sure there's things you did in those strip clubs that you haven't really fessed up to. Those places are basically brothels. Once the trust and honesty is broken down I'm not sure you can ever get back the full connection again. I mean, I don't really feel like sharing my heart with someone that lied to me for so long. I'll honor my vows, but I do feel robbed and tricked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

You know - a sad irony that I try not to let influence me too much is that I did give every detail she asked for - I told everything as that's what the 'counseling school of thought' seemed to be saying - be transparent, get it all out(along with - don't minimize) Now it seems all those details are working against me as they stay in her head. She is a much different lier than me though. i think she does not tell all - I've caught her in it too many times...


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

You are in a no-win situation. She took what you did and multiplied it by 1000. 

Go 180 on her ass and see a lawyer. It's past time.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Frank lee said:


> You know - a sad irony that I try not to let influence me too much is that I did give every detail she asked for - I told everything as that's what the 'counseling school of thought' seemed to be saying - be transparent, get it all out(along with - don't minimize) Now it seems all those details are working against me as they stay in her head. She is a much different lier than me though. i think she does not tell all - I've caught her in it too many times...


She is bad news because, as I said before - she is entitled.

Unless she is absolutely beside herself with hand wringing remorse then you have a very big problem here.

Walkonmars is, as always, spot on. Withdraw yourself from her - the "180" and begin proceedings.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Nope, you did the right thing then if you really did tell her the complete truth. It's the unknown that kills me. I have enough to know I didn't get the full and real story. That's the real torture... Your imagination can really hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## catfan (Jan 12, 2013)

Visiting strip clubs and having lapdances for that long behind her back sends her the message you are missing something in the marriage and even she is not (good) enough for you. Cheating is always bad, but she probably wouldn't have felt that needy of possitive attention if she had gotten it from you. 
I cannot imagine what I would feel or do if I found out that my partner had lapdances for ages behind my back. Maybe I would have searched for support too with someone else...


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

catfan said:


> ... Maybe I would have searched for support too with someone else...


Intimacy is support? hmmmm


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## LostCPA (Apr 15, 2011)

catfan said:


> Visiting strip clubs and having lapdances for that long behind her back sends her the message you are missing something in the marriage and even she is not (good) enough for you. Cheating is always bad, but she probably wouldn't have felt that needy of possitive attention if she had gotten it from you.
> I cannot imagine what I would feel or do if I found out that my partner had lapdances for ages behind my back. Maybe I would have searched for support too with someone else...


If the lapdances were a dealbreaker for you or the OP's WW then maybe the right choice would be to divorce. It's always best to end one relationship before starting another. Infidelity(even in response to your spouse's infidelity) is never justified. The old "He/She did it first" line is just a load of crap in my book.


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## Nix (Jan 23, 2012)

Frank lee said:


> Hello, trying something new here for new input. Been through lots of counseling, books, reading blogs, on and on and am in no better shape today then when this all started.
> A year and a half ago my wife found out I had been attending gentlemen's clubs(strip club).
> We've been married 20 yrs, two kids,some ups and downs but in last 5yrs, pretty stable,(always stable for the kids) and in the last year before this, we were doing better than ever. We felt much more in love,stable,looking ahead to future,sex was getting even better(always good).
> Looking to continue to spice things up, I went to one of these clubs. I had only been one time before at a bachelor party 25yrs ago. However, there was a time my wife mentioned she might be open to it,so I went to check it out. Slow night first time and by 2nd time, I really wasn't sure I could see us going. However, by that time I had accepted a lap dance and became intrigued/excited by the experience. About once a month for 1 hr at a time for the next year, I kept going. On some occasions there was touching, inappropriate for a married man. NO other involvement,no affairs, no intercourse.
> ...


My situation is really different from yours EXCEPT I have been in limbo for two months and counting. I am starting to be done. To be honest I think my wife is already done and just doesn't want to hurt me by coming out and saying so, but her behavior is getting worse and worse. I don't see my marriage lasting. Ten years this past December. Never thought I'd be 44 and single but there it is. I suppose there are worse things. Living in limbo for another 10 years would definitely be worse.


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## catfan (Jan 12, 2013)

*Re: Re: Living in limbo*



LostCPA said:


> If the lapdances were a dealbreaker for you or the OP's WW then maybe the right choice would be to divorce. It's always best to end one relationship before starting another. Infidelity(even in response to your spouse's infidelity) is never justified. The old "He/She did it first" line is just a load of crap in my book.


I totally agree to what you say, it's not the decent way to deal with the situation. End a relationship before you start a next one, for sure! 
Still I consider the strip club situation a dealbreaker for sure... and as a woman feel for the lady, not being enough to keep her husband interested enough in her not to forsake strippers.
And I do wonder why he felt the need to see and feel other women, why wouldn't she be enough for him if their sex life was so great...


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## LostCPA (Apr 15, 2011)

catfan said:


> I totally agree to what you say, it's not the decent way to deal with the situation. End a relationship before you start a next one, for sure!
> Still I consider the strip club situation a dealbreaker for sure... and as a woman feel for the lady, not being enough to keep her husband interested enough in her not to forsake strippers.
> And I do wonder why he felt the need to see and feel other women, why wouldn't she be enough for him if their sex life was so great...


I agree that he was guilty of infidelity and he certainly did a lot of harm to his marriage and his wife. There are certain needs that should only be met by your spouse when you are married. The gratification he found at these clubs should have been coming from his wife and when he found it outside the marriage he was guilty of infidelity in my book.

That being said, it still didn't give her the right to retaliate. She is no more guilty than he was, but the difference is how they responded when confronted. He was open and laid everything out on the table while she denied and trickled truthed him until he backed her into a corner and even then he probably doesn't hav ethe whole truth.

He displayed remorse and sought to do whatever it took to recovery. She has shown absolutely NO remorse and is trying to blameshift. When a WS shows no remorse, I can see no other option but to head straight for divorce. Otherwise, he is like Kevin Bacon in Animal House during the paddling initiation saying "Thank you, may I have another."


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> I'll say it again, she probably wouldn't have gone this route had the strippers not made her feel less. Sounds like she was looking for approval. Just like you in a way, men and women just work differently. You admitted it was nice having the strippers pretend to come on to you, you were seeking approval, just like her. Maybe this is worth working on, I dunno. Seems like you enjoyed the validation and then after she felt rejected, she looked for validation herself. Isn't this what most cheaters are after? Think about it, you both did basically the same thing. But you put it all in motion.
> 
> BTW, I've learned alot over the last couple years... In response to an earlier post strip clubs do offer more! What do you think the VIP rooms are for?!?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While they both did the same thing, she got the added benefit of punishing him regularly over the bad he did. So they both lied, both cheated, both sought intimacy from a third party. But while she was doing it, she was also making him crawl through the muck to fix things, taking all the blame and holding divorce over his head. Seems like she got more than her pound of flesh.

Sure, perhaps she would not have done that if he had not cheated first. But that does not excuse her behavior.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

^^^ Exactly!

Hipocrisy and dishonesty


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

Tall Average Guy - curious choice of words - "pound of flesh". I have often purported that the pound of flesh she takes is sometimes more like a kilo. 
I stuck to trying to force her to own her bad choice and face all the lying she has done. Her indignance did turn more remorseful. She insists things didn't go any farther than what I had done & that she had cut it off from him (yes, juvenile tit for tat) I don't know. Certainly there are trust issues but she has them for me too. Definitely turning the tables. talks continue - each now with a foot out the door at any given moment.
I don't think I'm prone to playing the sucker but I have to admit, I have a hard time trying 'to not love her'. As someone put - I did set this in motion. 
As much as I appreciate seeing the support in terms of her poor choice(which has helped in terms of holding my ground), I also see those like catfan who find my actions as unpalatable as my wife does. 

I see there are ascribed motivations & curiosities about what I did. If you've read through this you may find it hard to believe my story but it's true(what do I have to lose in telling the anonymous truth - that's why I'm here) I don't see it as from something missing in my marriage or a shortcoming of my wife. Yes, I have felt at times like I wish she were a little more sexually forthcoming, showing desire for me but she had gotten quite a bit more that way. The motivation & process (error that it was) is as I had put it. Mix in some - "Oh Sh#T" I've gone too far to tell her now, combined with a dose of selfishness and you have the slippery slope I went down. I'm glad that's stopped. certainly not an appropriate method of excitement for a marriage guy and not more gratifying/exciting than my wife. (when we're getting along ; -)


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

You started seeing strippers in 2010?
Sshe started the sex chat and affairs in 2011?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I’m just going to put this out there Frank.... My WW, as she headed deep into adultery land, sort of magnified in her head everything wrong with me. So, in my case, porn usage and “computer gaming addiction” was “as bad as” infidelity. She believed this. She absolutely needed to set me up as a “bad husband” simply so what she was doing didn’t feel as bad. It’s a lot easier to screw over someone real bad than it is someone who is just a touch bad. 

You didn’t set this in motion. So you hurt the marriage... you own that. But inside, her morals and beliefs are set up where what she is doing is alright. You can not change someone’s moral and belief system; that was set long before you arrived on the scene. Now you know what they truly are. It is apparently ok to ‘hook up’ outside the marriage IF your spouse wrongs you. You stopped, came clean, etc. because that is what you believe you should do. Her beliefs are continued lies are ok in this situation. This is her belief system. 

Stop judging her based on your own beliefs. Judge her on actions. Look at who she has made a deliberate choice to be. Distance and shred her hypocracy apart for her.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Frank, let me suggest you something.
Dig deeper, snoop long in the past, before your strippers scapades.


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

Acabado - are you suggesting within the marriage or within myself?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

I think he means that if you scratch the surface a little more - investigate phone records etc you may find out that she was playing long before you think she was. 

I wouldn't doubt it either.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Frank: it would explain the lack of sex in your marriage.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

That's why I asked the questions. It is strange that she was having an affair so close to the stripper visits. Trust me, you were still wrong, but the timing and escalation is very strange.


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

strip clubs lasted all of 2011. in DEC2011 she found out. I'm kicked out of the bedroom for the next three months. During that time, I do 'snoop' & find that she has engaged craigslist chat, had sex talk with a guy (& a woman). I'm monitoring this for a couple weeks when I see that she starts discussing hooking up with the guy. I broke into their conversation & emailed the guy to F- off. I believe he was pretty freaked out - (the only part of which I enjoyed ; -) I believe she stopped that behavior then(could be wrong) & we seemed to get back to reconciling for the rest of the year. Then in Jan 2013 - she boots me out again. She says she just still troubled with me. I get the feeling something is going on again & repeatedly ask her about it. She denies it (& even does so in counseling). I snoop again & find out I was right. She says she had already broken it off with the guy & that it didn't go farther than heavy petting. I've been grilling her left and right - pretty much being as relentless as I can. She has been acting sorry, answering my questions(but I've heard all the denials before) & is talking more about reconciling. To be noted: about 2 weeks ago(the timing she said she stopped the affair and prior to my snooping) she started this better talk & attitude about reconciling.
IT is VERY VERY hard to believe her words are true. I am still pretty convinced there's more but - it IS tangled folks - - I did it too - quite different than her. I think mine is more unsavory but hers may be more destructive to the marriage.(many of you consider both to be deal breakers) It can be argued til the cows come home, which one is worse, who's motivation is what, the whys. the trust, the deceit - back & forth to.......choices & ha - how long the limbo... ; - (

oh also - I may have wanted to be 'wanted' more(shown it) & there were times I wish there were more frequent sex but overall, it has been pretty satisfying in the 20 years. so I'm not sure I meant to portray a strong 'lack of sex'. IN fact, during 2011(or starting just before) her sex drive went up & we were excited/engaged like never before. No joke - I'm repeating this crazy sounding statement, but that was part of my inspiration to go to the clubs - thinking we might attend together - spice things up further. We were getting more adventurous. Error #1 - I did not talk to her about it first(I actually looked at it as a surprise for some date night & if I were to do that, was checking it out first because neither of us had any experience with it), errors # 2, 3 and so on - previously explained...
Our increased 2011 sex life is part of what has her so confused about my behavior. I understand how wierd that seems.

I'm wondering how big a stretch it is to think if others find it curious (or even accurate) to consider a somewhat comical warning(not that funny in my case but..) to some of you women and couples as the woman hits her sexual peak in the 40s or so....WATCH OUT..it's sex in hyper-drive!.. don't get out of control!
I sure as heck did not need those clubs - I was being.....gluttonous, selfish - out of control.
can mid life - be over now....?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Um... when the sex kicked in. New tricks? 
I just have a bad feeling... even the changes in the bedroom out of the blue could be a bad thing. Any other changes sudden changes from back then? Grooming habits, clothing, working out, work schedule?


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

ps - not really sure how to 'dig' much before 2011. Looking back from this experience, there have been times I could see the potential for her to have done this too. I've asked her about that. She denies that she ever did.


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## Frank lee (May 24, 2013)

racer - just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean someone's not out to get me - I have no idea how I could find that out...for sure. I'm sure I could find things that could be interpretted many ways. I did question the sex drive a bit - was it me? was it her? what's differnt. We settled on 'biology' & that we had been getting along better inthe last 4-5 years. I didn't like the biology part as much as it would have been nice to think it was just about me ; - ) or our getting along better but. ya know - there's only so much questioning of that before you ruin a good things(which I went ahead and did anyway)


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Frank lee said:


> racer - just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean someone's not out to get me - I have no idea how I could find that out...for sure. I'm sure I could find things that could be interpretted many ways. I did question the sex drive a bit - was it me? was it her? what's differnt. We settled on 'biology' & that we had been getting along better inthe last 4-5 years. I didn't like the biology part as much as it would have been nice to think it was just about me ; - ) or our getting along better but. ya know - there's only so much questioning of that before you ruin a good things(which I went ahead and did anyway)


I do know what you mean. Sometimes you don't want to know and prefer your own reality of how it is. Yet... the behavior is continuing. At some point, you need a real 'why'. If it's your strip club and revenge, if something was going before that, it blows holes in 'why'. That means whatever she might be working on internally may not stop the affairs because she's fixing the wrong broken parts. It's why I asked about the sex thing... it predates and is a possible sign of something else. Doesn't mean it is, just means it increases the redflags that you might want to investigate a bit more. Particularly since you are shouldering the blame for what she is doing.

If you do want to at least do some digging:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...one-interested-evidence-gathering-thread.html

My WW blamed her job loss and depression. But when I really started digging, the behavior pre-dated all that. That was only her latest excuse, not 'why'... And sure enough, my gut was right... Added 4 more OM's.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

The 'why' is because she decided to f someone else. Trying to see 'why' you will come up with an answer like the reason it always rains after a drought, or you always find something in the last place you looked.

'They' cheat because they can. When you realise that, you are half way there.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Frank lee said:


> strip clubs lasted all of 2011. in DEC2011 she found out. I'm kicked out of the bedroom for the next three months. During that time, I do 'snoop' & find that she has engaged craigslist chat, had sex talk with a guy (& a woman). I'm monitoring this for a couple weeks when I see that she starts discussing hooking up with the guy. I broke into their conversation & emailed the guy to F- off. I believe he was pretty freaked out - (the only part of which I enjoyed ; -) I believe she stopped that behavior then(could be wrong) & we seemed to get back to reconciling for the rest of the year. Then in Jan 2013 - she boots me out again. She says she just still troubled with me. I get the feeling something is going on again & repeatedly ask her about it. She denies it (& even does so in counseling). I snoop again & find out I was right. She says she had already broken it off with the guy & that it didn't go farther than heavy petting. I've been grilling her left and right - pretty much being as relentless as I can. She has been acting sorry, answering my questions(but I've heard all the denials before) & is talking more about reconciling. To be noted: about 2 weeks ago(the timing she said she stopped the affair and prior to my snooping) she started this better talk & attitude about reconciling.
> IT is VERY VERY hard to believe her words are true. I am still pretty convinced there's more but - it IS tangled folks - - I did it too - quite different than her. I think mine is more unsavory but hers may be more destructive to the marriage.(many of you consider both to be deal breakers) It can be argued til the cows come home, which one is worse, who's motivation is what, the whys. the trust, the deceit - back & forth to.......choices & ha - how long the limbo... ; - (
> 
> oh also - I may have wanted to be 'wanted' more(shown it) & there were times I wish there were more frequent sex but overall, it has been pretty satisfying in the 20 years. so I'm not sure I meant to portray a strong 'lack of sex'. IN fact, during 2011(or starting just before) her sex drive went up & we were excited/engaged like never before. No joke - I'm repeating this crazy sounding statement, but that was part of my inspiration to go to the clubs - thinking we might attend together - spice things up further. We were getting more adventurous. Error #1 - I did not talk to her about it first(I actually looked at it as a surprise for some date night & if I were to do that, was checking it out first because neither of us had any experience with it), errors # 2, 3 and so on - previously explained...
> ...


Thanks for answering. So, your sex drives went up when you both basically did a form of cheating. The difference is, you got caught first. What you both did is unsavory and equal in my books. Why? I don't believe for a SECOND, your wife didn't have some form of physical contact as well in 2011. I may be wrong, but it is entirely to coincidental.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Thanks for answering. So, your sex drives went up when you both basically did a form of cheating. The difference is, you got caught first. What you both did is unsavory and equal in my books. Why? I don't believe for a SECOND, your wife didn't have some form of physical contact as well in 2011. I may be wrong, but it is entirely to coincidental.


He can't be sure just cause her sex drive improved she was cheating. Like someone mentioned earlier when I turned 40 I noticed a huge increase in my sex drive. I think this is common. The bad news for me is this is right around the time I also decided I needed answers to some past doubts... So now I physically want sex, but emotionally I'm too screwed up to want it. That makes no sense, but is where I'm at. Stinks a time in my life I should be having fun and it's ruined by mind movies of my WS with another person and just a general feeling of degradation. Sex suddenly seems trashy, nothing about love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## laya (Jun 4, 2013)

i'm a little late to this thread but here's my take as i'm dealing with this very same issue with my husband. he just admitted that he visited a sc twice while working away. he said he went alone and only spent about 20 min both times. i have huge issues with giving away hard earned money to a naked chic that wants to push a lap dance and her naked body in his face. so, i told him that he should invite some of his friends over and i would strip for them and they can pay me money. after all, he shouldn't have a problem with that, right? well, he didn't like that idea. of course, i wasn't serious - i respect myself way too much to do that. the only advice i can give is that you need to be totally open with her. let her have all the passwords to your accounts because you have nothing to hide right? if you say you're going somewhere, make sure that is where you are. offer to let her track you until her trust returns. i just don't understand why you men think there is nothing wrong with going to a strip club. the strippers are viewed as nothing more than objects. who in the hell wants to pay for attention like that anyway. pathetic. my husband is still secretive and works out of town so who knows what the hell he does. i sure don't know and i don't trust him either. he only makes my distrust grow by doing things like disabling the search history on his phone and other stupid stuff that shouldn't matter if he didn't have anything to hide. so, pay attention to the little things that might bother her and make it right.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

hurtingbadly said:


> He can't be sure just cause her sex drive improved she was cheating.


 Please read that again, I said "their" which means both of them. That's me pointing out that I believe it isn't just a sex drive issue, it is showing that there are more problems in their marriage.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

laya said:


> i'm a little late to this thread but here's my take as i'm dealing with this very same issue with my husband. he just admitted that he visited a sc twice while working away. he said he went alone and only spent about 20 min both times. i have huge issues with giving away hard earned money to a naked chic that wants to push a lap dance and her naked body in his face. so, i told him that he should invite some of his friends over and i would strip for them and they can pay me money. after all, he shouldn't have a problem with that, right? well, he didn't like that idea. of course, i wasn't serious - i respect myself way too much to do that. the only advice i can give is that you need to be totally open with her. let her have all the passwords to your accounts because you have nothing to hide right? if you say you're going somewhere, make sure that is where you are. offer to let her track you until her trust returns. i just don't understand why you men think there is nothing wrong with going to a strip club. the strippers are viewed as nothing more than objects. who in the hell wants to pay for attention like that anyway. pathetic. my husband is still secretive and works out of town so who knows what the hell he does. i sure don't know and i don't trust him either. he only makes my distrust grow by doing things like disabling the search history on his phone and other stupid stuff that shouldn't matter if he didn't have anything to hide. so, pay attention to the little things that might bother her and make it right.


Did you read the update about his wife having sex with another man?


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## laya (Jun 4, 2013)

i missed that at the time i posted this but began reading through all the posts. i was only speaking from how i felt as a wife in his wife's situation. however, this changes everything. strip clubs, to me, are borderline cheating if not full blown cheating - i do think there is a gray area there. however, if she slept with someone else, well, i just don't know what to say. maybe she needs to pay attention to the little things that might bother him and make it right??


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

laya said:


> i missed that at the time i posted this but began reading through all the posts. i was only speaking from how i felt as a wife in his wife's situation. however, this changes everything. strip clubs, to me, are borderline cheating if not full blown cheating - i do think there is a gray area there. however, if she slept with someone else, well, i just don't know what to say. maybe she needs to pay attention to the little things that might bother him and make it right??


It's all a bit of a mess really.

The strip club thing is interesting.

I've worked with quite a few women who were fine with their husbands going to strip clubs - one close friend boasted that her own father paid for her husband to have a lap-dance.

Also, I've known many a fellow whose wife is "ok" with him visiting these places and a few women who have gone themselves.

I'm not saying what's right or wrong and, of course, it's all about boundaries and them being clear - but having sex with another person is pretty clearly wrong in every single case unless you are swingers, but strip clubs might not be as clear cut and should maybe be something discussed openly pretty early on in the relationship.

Looking back on some of the issues that come up on here, I don't know whether it's a UK/USA thing as my - rather wide - circle of friends, colleagues and acquaintances are all pretty relaxed about porn, strip clubs and what have you.


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## laya (Jun 4, 2013)

yeah, like i said, it's a gray area and maybe UK is a little more relaxed about it. i wish i could relax lol. but, yeah, this poor guy. at best, she could've said they were even and start working on the marriage from there. there's a lot of temptation everywhere and a couple must be super-diligent in staying faithful. it is hard work and sometimes, a person just doesn't want to work that hard.

and i say **even** is really not even when one visits the strip club and the other actually has a PA with someone. so i just want to make clear that I am not condoning or down-playing what his wife did. it was completely wrong and wrong of her to make him eat dirt until he found out.


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