# Should I let her know that I know?



## CozyFrost

I'm 44 and my wife is 47 and we've been together for almost 20 years and married for 9. We've had this great marriage without abuse or terrible fights. We regularly do things together and travel together a lot. Don't have many friends because we've mostly done things together on our own. 

A year ago she went back to university full time to study literature. I was very supportive because it was her and about 60 kids between the ages of 18-23 in her class, however after a few months I started to notice a change in her behavior. She started complaining that we don't party enough and she became almost obsessive with beauty products and Facebook. She also started to become more distant and less talky (she has always loved to talk to me).

Six months back I found out something was wrong when she was obsessing about a 22 year old guy in her study group. I asked her straight out if there was something going on with this guy, but she told me I overreacted and that she had been a little overwhelmed with everything. I naturally accepted that explanation. Over summer we went on several vacations and everything seemed fine until we got home and the Facebook checking started again. Same guy. 

Two months ago her computer broke and being an IT consultant she asked me to fix it and that's when my world fell apart. When putting her files back together I found several diaries writing down what this guy listens to, what he wears and who he is with. She has saved every possible picture of him she has been able to find. I almost fainted when I saw all the work. I got so sad that in my desperation to find out if this was just a one-time thing I set up a tracking on our computer and what I then found is what has thrown my whole life upside down. Every single day she spends time with her diary. She follows and records his every move on Facebook. She listens to all the songs he listens to and sits and cries. On our anniversary day, after I brought her breakfast in bed and flowers, she went straight to the computer and looked at pictures of him, listening to his songs and cried.

I'm 99% sure the 22 year old guy has no idea about any of this, but I sure do and there is no question she has a mega-crush on this guy or love him. A week ago I jokingly asked if she was still obsessing about the guy and she told me like before that I was over-reacting. Well, I would love if this was all in my head, but it's not and now I'm falling apart. Lost 25 lbs in 2 months (I was very fit to begin with) and feel like I already lost the love of my life. 

I am desperately in need of advice.


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## Thound

I would let her know that you know EVERYTHING. Then demand that she gets some help. Also let her know how badly you are hurt. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReidWright

does she have that type of personality? does she have a favorite rock star or movie star that she follows a little too closely? posters, etc

she sounds like she's 12 years old again.

you definitely need to wake her from her fog, but this is strange since the other guy really isn't involved. Does she still see him in person? maybe he's into cougars, or whatever.

sounds like she'd be vulnerable to anyone paying her some attention, so you might want to make sure no other age-appropriate guys are hanging around her


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## norajane

CozyFrost said:


> Every single day she spends time with her diary. She follows and records his every move on Facebook. *She listens to all the songs he listens to and sits and cries.* On our anniversary day, after I brought her breakfast in bed and flowers, she went straight to the computer and looked at pictures of him, *listening to his songs and cried.*


What did she say when you asked her about the crying? 

Does she have a history of depression?


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## PBear

BTW, if you do confront her, make sure you have all the evidence backed up someplace safe. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CozyFrost

Thank you all for your attention.

She is not a starstruck kind of girl following rock stars or anything like that. We met in college and she's always been very down to earth; no drinking, excessive partying. Also, it's mostly been just us together doing fun things all the time. That's why this sudden need to look young and constant sadness over not partying enough is puzzling to say the least.

I haven't asked her about the crying because I'm not supposed to know. That info came from my snooping, after finding the diaries, which also makes me feel like a complete jerk. 

She has no history of depression and there has been zero "previous" infidelity in our marriage.

I searched online for answers and everything points at a severe midlife crisis, but if this is going to go on for years it will tear me apart.


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## CozyFrost

ReidWright said:


> sounds like she'd be vulnerable to anyone paying her some attention, so you might want to make sure no other age-appropriate guys are hanging around her


This is a very interesting observation. In my opinion she has some mild social phobia and I've noticed that when someone else gives her attention she gets very excited. I practically know this guy now I and he seems to be a really great guy that really included her socially from the beginning. That is very nice of him, but I didn't expect that to lead to this development.


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## norajane

CozyFrost said:


> I searched online for answers and everything points at a severe midlife crisis, but if this is going to go on for years it will tear me apart.


That probably is a big part of it. At 47, she's staring at menopause, but she is surrounded by young 20-somethings who are just getting started with their lives. 

Do you two have kids? Maybe she has some regrets about the choices she's made in her life.

What does her diary say about all this? I don't know why she'd be writing down stuff about his every move...."He posted on fb that he likes this song, so I listened to it and cried. He went out with his friends to dinner." It's stalkerish more than anything else.

Does she write her thoughts down about how she is feeling, or is it all just factual? Since you only know she cried because she wrote about it, is she saying why she cries?

All I know is that when a woman is crying regularly, that is a huge problem. That isn't going to turn out well if the underlying issues aren't addressed.


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## CozyFrost

norajane said:


> That probably is a big part of it. At 47, she's staring at menopause, but she is surrounded by young 20-somethings who are just getting started with their lives.
> 
> What does her diary say about all this? Does she write her thoughts down about how she is feeling, or is it all just factual? I don't know why she'd be writing down stuff about his every move...."He posted on fb that he likes this song, so I listened to it and cried. He went out with his friends to dinner." It's stalkerish more than anything else.


There is nothing written about her feelings, however, all the lyrics from all the songs (almost all of them about lost love) have been copied into the diary and she sits there and reads them while looking at pictures of him.

Yes, it so elaborate and extensive it's borderline creepy. It sure is a side of her I had no idea existed and still wish I didn't.


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## norajane

I don't think any of us will be able to explain her behavior. You will need to discuss this with her.


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## CozyFrost

norajane said:


> That probably is a big part of it. At 47, she's staring at menopause, but she is surrounded by young 20-somethings who are just getting started with their lives.
> 
> 
> Do you two have kids? Maybe she has some regrets about the choices she's made in her life.
> 
> 
> All I know is that when a woman is crying regularly, that is a huge problem. That isn't going to turn out well if the underlying issues aren't addressed.


No kids, but we tried really hard.

She's not crying that often in front of the screen. Many times she instead gets very excited and happy. The closest I would say it looks like is a teenage crush.

If I knew the underlying issues I would sacrifice anything to make this craziness go away. 

Since I know so much about this guy I now know when she talks about him. She always tries to hide it with phrases like: "this other guy wore this today", "this other guy went to this party last night", "this other guy in class looks so beautiful in a tuxedo", but I know it's always him she talks about.


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## CozyFrost

norajane said:


> I don't think any of us will be able to explain her behavior. You will need to discuss this with her.


That's what scares me. She's so completely obsessed with this guy and has indirectly (trying to hide it's him she's talking about) attributed him all positive superlatives in the English language. I'm afraid that she will choose him over me and that thought is unbearable.


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## norajane

CozyFrost said:


> That's what scares me. She's so completely obsessed with this guy and has indirectly (trying to hide it's him she's talking about) attributed him all positive superlatives in the English language. I'm afraid that she will choose him over me and that thought is unbearable.


What is there to choose, though? It's not like this 22 year old has anything to do with her other than their study group interaction. She's obsessed and crushing on him from afar

Maybe some marriage counseling would help with this. It can be a safer place to communicate about difficult subjects.


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## CozyFrost

Thank you all. It feels so much better to just know that someone is listening and caring. I'll re-read everything and sleep on it. Maybe I'll talk to her this weekend. I don't want to interrupt her studying and make her upset during the week.


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## 3Xnocharm

CozyFrost said:


> That's what scares me. She's so completely obsessed with this guy and has indirectly (trying to hide it's him she's talking about) attributed him all positive superlatives in the English language. I'm afraid that she will choose him over me and that thought is unbearable.


So you are just going to sit here and pout and not do something about this?? You need to bring this up to her ASAP! And IF she DID "choose" this guy over you, then you are better off without her. She is delusional, evidently she is stalking this poor kid and he has no idea. She has some serious issues, and as her partner, YOU need to try and help her with it! Pull your head out the sand!


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## CozyFrost

3Xnocharm said:


> Pull your head out the sand!


You are so right, but I freely admit that when I comes to love my heart is very fragile and my will really weak. I'm the apex opposite of an alpha-male regarding these things. In business I kick ass, in love....oh dear.



RuralMama said:


> It might be a good idea to try counseling. Have you thought of calling a counselor your self to find out the best way to approach her? If you think it would help you can call 1-800-A-Family. The counselors at Focus on the Family will call you back and give you some good advice on how to proceed. I so appreciate your faithfulness and desire to work through this with your wife. Hugs friend.


Thought about counseling, but honestly feel extremely ashamed over both how I've found out (snooping like a jerk) and also the fact that my wife has a huge crush on a person that might as well be our kid. Plus my self-esteem is being carpet bombed daily now knowing that as soon as she comes home she can't wait to read about him. Like I told 3Xnocharm, unfortunately I'm a wuss. 20 years; I always thought we would continue having fun together forever. Seems like I was wrong.


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## norajane

> 20 years; I always thought we would continue having fun together forever. Seems like I was wrong.


Most marriages go through rough spots. That's the time to double down and work harder.

Don't throw in the towel just yet.



> my wife has a huge crush on a person that might as well be our kid.


Could this also be part of her issue here? You said you two tried hard to have a child and couldn't. Maybe that's some of what her tears are about... You're thinking the worst, when it might be something deeper that is troubling her and she needs some emotional support. 

Or I could be way off and she could be having a mid-life crisis crush, in which case she needs support of a different kind. Women are often told they are valued for their youth and beauty. It can hit some women really hard when they see they no longer "fit" that role. 

You really need to have this discussion with her. 

"There's something that's been on my mind since I worked on fixing your computer. I saw that you have been spending a lot of your free time focusing on one of your fellow students. I'm worried that it seems like you have a crush on this young man, and I'm worried about YOU. I'm also worried about US. I don't know what you're going through right now, but you've been my best friend for 20 years and I want to help."


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## PBear

So I have to ask... Why post if you're not willing to talk to her about it?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

CozyFrost said:


> You are so right, but I freely admit that when I comes to love my heart is very fragile and my will really weak. I'm the apex opposite of an alpha-male regarding these things. In business I kick ass, in love....oh dear.
> 
> 
> 
> Thought about counseling, but honestly feel extremely ashamed over both how I've found out (snooping like a jerk) and also the fact that my wife has a huge crush on a person that might as well be our kid. Plus my self-esteem is being carpet bombed daily now knowing that as soon as she comes home she can't wait to read about him. Like I told 3Xnocharm, unfortunately I'm a wuss. 20 years; I always thought we would continue having fun together forever. Seems like I was wrong.


Well, you better find your balls, or your woman is gone.


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## CozyFrost

norajane said:


> "There's something that's been on my mind since I worked on fixing your computer. I saw that you have been spending a lot of your free time focusing on one of your fellow students. I'm worried that it seems like you have a crush on this young man, and I'm worried about YOU. I'm also worried about US. I don't know what you're going through right now, but you've been my best friend for 20 years and I want to help."


Thanks. Something along these lines this weekend.



PBear said:


> So I have to ask... Why post if you're not willing to talk to her about it?


Never said I wouldn't. Basically posted to get advice as to if I should tell her that I know everything about her secret love/crush- affair or if she's having a severe midlife crisis just continue to suffer along and hope that she will come to her senses.



3Xnocharm said:


> Well, you better find your balls, or your woman is gone.


I believe I will do my best to locate them in time for this weekend.


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## anchorwatch

Should I let her know that I know?

Why Relationship Momentum Matters | Married Man Sex Life

What do you think, now?

Don't be passive and let things drift out of control. Be the captain of this relationship, and steer the ship away from the rocks.


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## richie33

Confront her and snap her out of it. Demand she deactivate the Facebook, she is using it in a way that is not healthy for your marriage.


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## PBear

My advice... Confront and focus on counseling. You should be a leader to fix this, if you can get her to commit to it. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CozyFrost

anchorwatch said:


> Should I let her know that I know?
> 
> Why Relationship Momentum Matters | Married Man Sex Life
> 
> What do you think, now?
> 
> Don't be passive and let things drift out of control. Be the captain of this relationship, and steer the ship away from the rocks.


Not bad advice at all. Can't have this lunacy continue to sucking the life out of me.



richie33 said:


> Confront her and snap her out of it. Demand she deactivate the Facebook, she is using it in a way that is not healthy for your marriage.


She needs Facebook for school so that could be hard, however, this obsession has to end, both for her sake and mine.



PBear said:


> My advice... Confront and focus on counseling. You should be a leader to fix this, if you can get her to commit to it.


Confront it is. I keep hearing it from everybody all with great arguments so in true democratic fashion I'll go for a weekend confrontation. Never ever felt so sick and uncertain about anything in my life, but Saturday will be the day. Have a few days to mentally prepare. I actually think she might go completely crazy for the first time in her life when I drop this bomb on her.

Either way, you've been a great help. Both the comforting and ass-kicking.


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## PBear

Keep in mind that there's more than one way to approach things. You can go all hard-ass on her, and threaten divorce right off the bat. Or you can take a softer approach, let her know some of what you know, and encourage fixing things. Think about what you want to accomplish and how best to get there. And then realize that no plan survives first contact... 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33

No one needs Facebook. Stop buying into that bs.


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## anchorwatch

CozyFrost, 

You must have a plan for more than a confrontation. You should not just back her into a corner, without a positive outcome she can grasp. Give her something to think about, other than this infatuation/limerence with the young school boy. You might tell her you intend to take steps to strength the relationship and make it one where you both can flourish if she will join you. It goes a long way in the eyes of a spouse when you take the leadership role. 

Here you might read these and form a plan forward before you confront. 

His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage, by Dr. Harley

A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 

Best


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## CozyFrost

Good advice all of you and I will definitely not approach it as a hard-ass mostly because I'm not that kind of person. Instead I have to find some way at sugar-coating the whole confrontation. 

However, after input from the forum I've completely decided to confront her instead of passively sit by, which also was my original question.

Thank you for the links. I will read Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts right now.


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## anchorwatch

Be careful, sugar coating is passive and may seem like begging. There is no reason a husband can't explain what he expects from his spouse, clearly, calmly, confidently, but frankly. Remember to always look confident in your resolve, to lead this relationship the right way. Do not let fear of rejection control you. That may be a reason you're here.


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## NewLife2017

Hi! Female here. I really don't know how to add to the advice that you have been given. Only to say this, I would WANT to know if someone was stalking me on social media. He can block her access and that will take care of facebook if in fact she needs it for school. I take strictly online courses and in the year I have been going, I have not used facebook once for classes. Just saying....

I realize if you let him know, she will be embarrassed about her behavior (I hope). But clearly she is not herself and it may snap her back into reality. Can she switch to another study group? Because I don't see this getting any better until the object of her obsession is no longer available to her (facebook or otherwise). I also agree counseling is your best bet because she is most likely going to deny what she has been doing. It doesn't matter if she has a crush or if she sees this young man as the son she didn't have. This is going to freak him out as it would most of us. He may be the only one that can snap her out of this. Maybe if you let her know you are considering this, that will certainly bring reality back to her.

I am truly sorry for what you are going through and the confusion you must be experiencing. FYI - I am 49 and post menopause and it started at 45. But for two years my emotions were all over the place. Laughing one minute and crying the next. It was tough on me & those around me. Not excusing her or my behavior during that time, just wanted you to know. Along with counseling, maybe see a doctor too. There are treatments available to help with the emotional roller coaster. Keep us posted and best wishes.


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## PBear

I don't think I'd trust a 22 year old penis to run away when presented with a willing 40 something... If he was made aware of her attraction to him, he could easily take advantage of it just for fun. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CozyFrost

anchorwatch said:


> Be careful, *sugar coating* is passive and may seem like *begging*. There is no reason a husband can't explain what he expects from his spouse, clearly, calmly, confidently, but frankly. Remember to always look confident in your resolve, to lead this relationship the right way. Do not let fear of *rejection* control you. That may be a reason you're here.


This is a huge problem for me (bolded). I've treated her like a princess for 20 years because I love her so much and it's not because I couldn't get any other woman. I'm 6'4, 200 lbs (used to be. Now I'm more like 175 lbs and shrinking) with all my blond hair still in place, MBA and all these other useless attributes that supposedly makes one attractive. I've also regularly get flirted with so I know my worth so to speak, However, that is useless knowledge to me because I only love her and all other women are completely uninteresting. To sum it up, my fear of rejection has complete control over me.



NewLife2017 said:


> I am truly sorry for what you are going through and the confusion you must be experiencing. FYI - I am 49 and post menopause and it started at 45. But for two years my emotions were all over the place. Laughing one minute and crying the next. It was tough on me & those around me. Not excusing her or my behavior during that time, just wanted you to know. Along with counseling, maybe see a doctor too. There are treatments available to help with the emotional roller coaster. Keep us posted and best wishes.


Thank you for your wishes. They are really appreciated. 

From what I have been able to read of the Internet, and god knows I've spent hours looking for answers, she is going through a textbook midlife crisis. Looking at her search history (searches like, "how to make age difference work in your relationship") I can now say with certainty that the affection she's feeling is not of a son she didn't have, but love/sexual and that naturally breaks my heart. I don't think she'll be willing to accept any advice from me because the woman I'm married to is not the same anymore. She's behaving more and more distant.



PBear said:


> I don't think I'd trust a 22 year old penis to run away when presented with a willing 40 something... If he was made aware of her attraction to him, he could easily take advantage of it just for fun.


I'm 99% sure the guy has no idea about any of this, but I do agree with your warnings. My wife may be 47, but could easily pass for early 30s. The two of them at a party, a few drinks and I think this could escalate very quickly. She acts so totally infatuated by him that I believe the smallest wink from him and she would release all inhibitions. I also think that if he knew nothing would prevent him from having some "fun" unless he is a really considerate and nice guy. This scenario is however so painful for me to consider I try to avoid it at all cost.


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## Tobyboy

You know what she's gonna say when you do confront...right?

"This is what I'm studying!!!......literature!!!"
" Nothing I wrote is real........It's call fiction!!!" 
" Your overacting....it's just a rough draft of something I'm working on"

Question for you Frosty......will you buy her lame excuses?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CozyFrost

Tobyboy said:


> You know what she's gonna say when you do confront...right?
> 
> "This is what I'm studying!!!......literature!!!"
> " Nothing I wrote is real........It's call fiction!!!"
> " Your overacting....it's just a rough draft of something I'm working on"
> 
> Question for you Frosty......will you buy her lame excuses?


No, I will not buy the lame excuses. I know way too much after just a few days of information gathering that if this was a trial it would be over in 10 minutes.

I'm right and she's wrong. No sugar-coating in the world can alter that fact, but the fact that this college kid, without any effort, could just step into her life and make her completely oblivious to our beautiful 20 years together has a devastating effect on me.

I know the "manly" thing would be to take my things and leave, but saying it and doing it are two separate things so instead I act like I know nothing.....for now.

PS: Went to lunch with her today. She asked me what I thought about guys that wear their pants half-way down their ass and skateboard at the age of 22? I told her I thought the look was juvenile especially on upper-middle class kids. Her response was that she thought it looked rebellious and when they put on a suit for college parties they become so beautiful. Guess who skateboards and wears his pants half way down his ass?


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## anchorwatch

If what you say about your fears is true, at least you recognize it and know you need to change. It took you a long time to get where you are, but you're still young and positive life change can happen. For too long you believed that your happiness is dependent upon the happiness of those around you. So you put their wants and needs above yours, in the hopes that yours might be fulfilled. That's now how life works, We are each responsible for our own happiness, not others. 

Here read these links.You will understand, Do not be put off by the titles...

No More Mr Nice Guy, Dr Robert Glover

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

Here are two success stories...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/85369-she-said-w-man-i-dont-love.html


Here is another link. It is a list of behaviors for you to enact if she becomes oppositional to repairing the relationship. This will help you detach from the situation while you work on yourself. It's posted in a forum hosted by men, based on Dr Glover's book. Give it a browse. 

The 180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group


I'm not looking to overwhelm you, only to give you the resources that may help. 

Best


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## kennethk

What are you waiting for? For her to get deeper into her fantasy? For it to turn PA?

Confront now and do not be to nice about it.
Be willing to end the marriage.

Foot down hard now... don't wait.
Put it down so hard her head will spin with losing you.


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## CozyFrost

anchorwatch said:


> I'm not looking to overwhelm you, only to give you the resources that may help.
> 
> Best


Your assessment of me as a person are pretty much spot on. I have actually somewhat known about these weaknesses most part of my adult life, but put aside dealing with them in the naive thought that I would never have to go through what I'm going through right now. 

I thank you for the links. I have searched myself on the Internet, but there's such a plethora of utter nonsense that getting help in finding the gems is of immense help. I will carefully and thoughtfully read all the links you've given me. 



kennethk said:


> What are you waiting for? For her to get deeper into her fantasy? For it to turn PA?
> 
> Confront now and do not be to nice about it.
> Be willing to end the marriage.
> 
> Foot down hard now... don't wait.
> Put it down so hard her head will spin with losing you.


I wish I had your determination and willpower, but I have shockingly found out how deeply mentally ill-equipped I am to deal with these issues. I would probably need a year or two in CBT to harness the will and I don't have that time. That's why I'm turning to all of you for help. I guess the best way of explaining how my brain functions regarding these issues is if you envision your 10 year old kid suddenly turning into a heroine addict. It would ruin every aspect of your life, but you would try absolutely everything, completely obliterating yourself before you would finally give up and let go. That's me and as much as I know it's extremely unhealthy I can't change over night.

I sincerely appreciate the pep-talk though and that people I don't know actually cares makes me feel much better.


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## Hicks

She is a drug addict.
You have to separate her from her drugs.

What you have to do is call up the school, tell them she is dropping out and you need your money back. Then tell her. Stop paying for that school. Shut off her phone. Shut off the internet from your house. Tell her parents and anyone who cares about her or your marriage what she is doing.


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## kennethk

CF - chicks dig strong guys. Put your foot down. Claim what belongs to you.
Just put your foot down and tell her to cut it out or *she* is gone. (where's she gonna go - to BF mommy's house?)

And start monitoring her electronics. Do not give her an inch to repeat this behavior.

Get her away from this guy and let her know "no 3rd parties" in your relationship.

Sucks don't it? But you have to do it IF you love her.


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## CozyFrost

anchorwatch said:


> If what you say about your fears is true, at least you recognize it and know you need to change. It took you a long time to get where you are, but you're still young and positive life change can happen. For too long you believed that your happiness is dependent upon the happiness of those around you. So you put their wants and needs below yours, in the hopes that yours might be fulfilled. That's now how life works, We are each responsible for our own happiness, not others.
> 
> Here read these links.You will understand, Do not be put off by the titles...
> 
> *No More Mr Nice Guy*, Dr Robert Glover
> 
> I'm not looking to overwhelm you, only to give you the resources that may help.
> 
> Best



WOW! 

Dear anchorwatch.

Maybe you, a complete stranger, will turn out to be one of the most important people in my life. The first 20 pages of No More Mr Nice Guy are scary to read. The book is about me and I should emphasize that this comes from a guy that avoids the self-help/quick-fix sections of bookstores like the plague. 

I have read 20 pages and I have already figured out that I don't have some small problem. I have a friggin' diagnose. I need to completely rethink my self-image. I'm a "Good Guy" addict of the highest degree and should not be sitting here in front of the screen sobbing over the fact that the 22 year old guy just changed his profile photo on Facebook and the reaction on my wife was unmitigated happiness. There should be AA type meetings for people like me.

I'm in the need of some serious help, but I'm so incredibly thankful that you pointed it out to me.


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## anchorwatch

CozyFrost said:


> WOW!
> 
> Dear anchorwatch.
> 
> Maybe you, a complete stranger, will turn out to be one of the most important people in my life. The first 20 pages of No More Mr Nice Guy are scary to read. The book is about me and I should emphasize that this comes from a guy that avoids the self-help/quick-fix sections of bookstores like the plague.
> 
> I have read 20 pages and I have already figured out that I don't have some small problem. I have a friggin' diagnose. I need to completely rethink my self-image. I'm a "Good Guy" addict of the highest degree and should not be sitting here in front of the screen sobbing over the fact that the 22 year old guy just changed his profile photo on Facebook and the reaction on my wife was unmitigated happiness.* There should be AA type meetings for people like me.*
> 
> I'm in the need of some serious help, but I'm so incredibly thankful that you pointed it out to me.


There are peer support groups! 

No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group 

If you can't find one there, you're encouraged to look up 12 step mens groups or co-dependent groups near you. A good male IC familiar with these ideas and co-dependancy would be greatly encouraged too. If you're inclined to use remote methods there are many counseling, coaching, and class/seminar type resources. 

But most of all, stop, take a deep breath and resolve yourself in two facts. You can take back your life and whatever the future brings it will be better. 

Best


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## Thor

Cozy, welcome aboard!

No matter what happens, you can handle it. Remember that, and believe it because it is true.

Secondly, you need to crush her fantasy asap. I don't think you should wait until the weekend. Normally I would say observe for a bit and get some additional advice from someone like a therapist, and read some books. Nope, you don't have time for that. Women get lost in an emotional affair, and that is what your wife is in. And the deeper they get the harder it is to recover. You will be doing her a favor by confronting this today rather than waiting.

STOP putting value on her schedule or her school!! You confront and you have discussions with her about anything based on your own timetable. You do it when it is right for YOU, regardless of her schedule. She's not a surgeon who needs steady hands in the morning to cure kids of cancer. 

Finally, and importantly, there is no perfect confrontation. You can plan out a few things you want to say to her, but you cannot predict how it will really go. That is ok. It goes how it goes. It won't go perfectly. So don't worry (obsess?) about doing this right. And don't kick yourself later for not thinking of something on the fly as it progresses.

Have a few key points. Keep it calm, and don't ramp up your emotions even if she ramps up. Use the "Broken Record" by repeating concise important points. "Honey, I am concerned about you and about us". she says blah blah blah. You say "I am concerned about you. This isn't like you." She says but you're wrong blah blah. You say "I am worried about us". Get the idea? Broken record. Don't defend yourself or let her make you justify yourself.

NoraJane on page 2 had an excellent little paragraph for you to use. Go back and read it, it is perfect.


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## Thor

Keylog her computer. Back up her phone asap to the computer if she has an iPhone, so you can see what is on there.

It sounds like there is no reciprocation from this kid, so I don't expect you'll find anything in the way of messages or arrangements to hook up.

Still, you need surveillance in place to verify what she is doing. Don't feel guilty that you're spying! You have every right to know that your wife is stepping out of the marriage, and that is what she is doing. It is a real Emotional Affair she is in.

Don't let her try to shame you for discovering what you did.

Don't tell her about the keylogger. Never reveal your sources of intel. Never.

There is a good chance she'll make some insincere promise to cut it off. This is why you need the keylogger. You must verify she is complying.

I agree with those saying to nuke this emotional affair hard. Pull her out of that class as a minimum. Put surveillance into place. All it will take is for this young man to think it would be fun to take a roll in the hay with a hot older woman and your wife will cross that line in a flash.

You know, I don't think your wife is evil or a slvt. She's let herself cross a line and didn't have strong boundaries around the marriage. If you can nuke this thing now, she may come back to the marriage and hate what she did. I think there is reason for optimism for your marriage.


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## CozyFrost

Thor said:


> Cozy, welcome aboard!


Thank you, Thor. And thank you for your encouragement.

Just came back from a two hour run to clear my head.

This is probably the best decision I've ever made in my life coming to this board. 

I managed to read a lot of the No More Mr Nice Guy book and figured out that I'm basically a fraud. For most people that would be a terrible revelation. For me it was a relief. I have such a long way to go that right now it feels pretty hopeless and miserable. Moreover, I've been so incredibly disingenuous towards myself and my wife that I'm not really surprised she's found a sexual attraction elsewhere. I was too ashamed to admit it previously, but there hasn't been any intimacy between us for well over a year. 

So does that give her the right to do what she's been doing? No. Will me confronting her now change anything? Probably not and here's why. I'm such a wreck and a wuss around her that would any of you see how I behave around my wife you would probably shoot me out pure compassion. I can only do damage to the very little self-esteem I have left if I confront her now. She "owns" me completely and she knows it. A confrontation now she would win in less than five minutes and probably have me begging to pay for her vacation with the 22-year old within 7 minutes.

The good thing though is that I've decided to join the support group and make some radical changes. I will also work on the 180-program and the book strategies religiously. The thing is that I haven't always been like this. I was actually the polar opposite up until my early 30s. Sometime after that I lost myself. 

I will work hard on all of this for at least a month and then see how far along I've come and if I have made any measurable progress that translates into courage. If by then she has crossed the line I will also have to work on my fear of being alone. 

Being a techie with security as my specialty I went all NSA on my wife when I found the diaries and absolutely everything including screen capture video, key-logging, webcam monitoring is being saved to my server. I also rooted her smart phone and placed surveillance software on it. Decided to take that away after a day though because I felt so incredibly creepy. However, I've decided to seize to review everything every night and go to bed crying on the inside. I know what she's doing and she's almost more pathetic than me. I will instead focus on myself the coming weeks and if she decides to utterly embarrass herself she's free to do so. I will not partake in the circus.

As a side note I might as well admit that I've been through therapy before because of these emotional problems. It angers me immensely that I spent all that time achieving absolutely nothing and then getting a link posted to a book that has my problem wrapped up in less than 20 pages.


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## PBear

Why has there been no intimacy for so long?

And the first step to dealing with an issue is knowing it's there. You've taken that step. Congrats!

C


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## CozyFrost

PBear said:


> Why has there been no intimacy for so long?
> 
> And the first step to dealing with an issue is knowing it's there. You've taken that step. Congrats!
> 
> C


No intimacy because of long-term illness on her part. 

Thank you for the encouragement. I really had no idea how incredibly bad mental shape I was in.


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## sinnister

I feel for you OP, but for the love of all that is holy do NOT wait to confront.

This isn't about waiting so that you can plan a hard confront with all of your evidence where she can't deny. You already have all the evidence you will ever need. Why let her stay in her fantasy world one minute longer while you suffer in silence? Right now you have to be concerned about your psyche and your healing. Every minute your wife lives in that fantasy world is another she is crushing your soul.

Ultimately you'll do what you want but I urge you to blow this absolutely unacceptable situation sky high right now. I know you say you are too weak to right now...I call BS. I think you're afraid to.

I dont want to be harsh man. Believe me, I am on your side. I want you to have the love and respect you deserve. Right now you're getting neither. Today..tomorrow...Saturday do you really think you'll be more prepared emotionally in 4 days? Think about it.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Woah Woah Woah. Slow down, think carefully and then make your next move. You haven't confronted her yet and your next move is the 180? You realize this is you giving up on your marriage right? You are going to ignore her with no confrontation? She may be infatuated and not realizing how far she is falling.


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## CozyFrost

sinnister said:


> I feel for you OP
> 
> Think about it.


Great to hear all your words, sinnister. 

Yeah, I'm scared alright. Terrified actually and thinking about every possible scenario. But all the encouragement I've received here has actually boosted my confidence from rock bottom to about an inch higher. Only about 12 stories left. Having myself finally diagnosed was also a relief. I'm also suppressing the will to check her online activities and it makes me feel slightly more empowered. A slimmer of "to hell with her if she wants to go kindergarten hunting" is giving me mental relief. 

Constantly bargaining with myself right now. Old self keeps telling me to run to her with flowers and hug and kiss her while infant new self "No More Mr Nice Guy" is telling me to quit the addiction and focus on myself. Might end up somewhere in between.


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## naiveonedave

my advice, focus on self and man up. Don't take her cr*p.


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## 3Xnocharm

CozyFrost said:


> I will work hard on all of this for at least a month and then see how far along I've come and if I have made any measurable progress that translates into courage. If by then she has crossed the line I will also have to work on my fear of being alone.


A month is WAY WAY to long to let this go on! The more time that passes only makes her feelings for this man that much stronger, and leaves that much more of a window for them to end up in bed together! Are you afraid you are just going to allow her to continue this ridiculous crush on this guy?? Or worse yet, have SEX with him?? REALLY?? Do you WANT to be a cuckold? If that is what you end up doing, then dude, you dont deserve a wife! I love that you are becoming self aware, but this isnt something that can wait! Your wife NEEDS for you to do this for her, she NEEDS you to be the strong, take no sh!t man for her!

DO NOT SIT ON THIS!


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## phillybeffandswiss

He can focus on himself after he blows it up. He's still typing like he is going to avoid a confrontation.


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## Thor

CozyFrost said:


> As a side note I might as well admit that I've been through therapy before because of these emotional problems. It angers me immensely that I spent all that time achieving absolutely nothing and then getting a link posted to a book that has my problem wrapped up in less than 20 pages.


Doc Glover is a psychologist. So you finally found the right shrink!


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## sinnister

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He can focus on himself after he blows it up. He's still typing like he is going to avoid a confrontation.


This is what I'm reading here too.


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## Thor

CozyFrost said:


> Yeah, I'm scared alright. Terrified actually and thinking about every possible scenario.


Doc Glover covers that one. It is called "attachment to outcome" and you should not do that. You cannot control her and you can't manage a confrontation to get a specific outcome. All you can do is your best. As the military generals say, the best battle plan becomes useless at first contact with the enemy. You cannot predict accurately how she will react to anything.

Set boundaries, inform her of your expectations, and work on yourself. From that the best outcome will occur under the existing conditions, but we can't yet know what that outcome will be. It could be divorce is the best outcome, and you both might be much happier. It could be she recommits to the marriage, and you two sail happily into the sunset.




CozyFrost said:


> Constantly bargaining with myself right now. Old self keeps telling me to run to her with flowers and hug and kiss her while infant new self "No More Mr Nice Guy" is telling me to quit the addiction and focus on myself. Might end up somewhere in between.


Don't supplicate yourself to her! No flowers, no kissing up to her! Now is the time for calm confidence in front of her. Cry, run, talk to yourself all you want when she's not around, but in front of her you have to be The Man.

My wife fought me when I asked to to un-friend an ex lover of hers from Facebook. She was hostile! She fumed for a long time. But she did it and although she fumed there was also a new air of respect for me as a result of me holding my ground.


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## Thor

You've got to act quickly on nuking this affair. The sooner the better in order to reduce her emotional involvement. Also, nuking before it goes sexual (with him or someone else) might make the difference in your ability to get through a reconciliation with her.

Go read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" in the next day or two. It will be a huge help in your confrontation. Broken Record. Negative Assertion. Negative Inquiry. Those are your tools. 

You will also see how she verbally tries to manipulate you. That is how she wins a discussion in 5 minutes as you described. Now you can emotionally disengage in a conversation and become the observer of her tactics.

Don't worry about becoming an expert in WISNIFG before confronting her. Read the highlights and then confront her asap.

When you confront, don't tell her about any of your surveillance no matter how hard she might push about it. Broken Record. "When I was fixing your computer I came across some files"


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## LongWalk

Although there is some chance that her crush would sleep with her, the majority of guys in college are not entertaining the idea of having sex with a much older woman. If they meet up at a party with alcohol, there is a chance it could happen.

Your wife takes you for granted. You should do the 180 to protect yourself from her crisis. Read Bagdon's thread. Jerry123 is another. You need to assert yourself so that you become desirable.

I believe that your wife's sorrow from unrequited love sickness will make her return to you. The key is you don't want to be a friend zoned comforter beta dude, you want to be the real man in her life. 

Machiavelli, a poster who coaches men who find themselves in your position, would advise you to work out and build your upper body. Change your wardrobe. Superficial? Perhaps but these things send signals to a woman's liminal mind.


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## weightlifter

If you wait to confront, you need to know ahead of time any concurrent activities with skateboard boy. If needed c0ckblock.


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## Lostinthought61

Let me get this straight no intimacy between you two because of an issue with her but do you think for one second she won't try with him you would be wrong...if the opportunity arose.


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## Dyokemm

Confront ASAP.

Then continue working on yourself.

Stop acting out of fear....and don't say 'I can't...'

I teach, and hear that nonsense all the time from my students.

I don't accept it from 17/18 year olds, so there is no way I'll let it pass from a successful grown man in his 40's.

It is a matter of will....you have the capacity to choose.

Use that ability now.

Tell her you know what she is doing, and it will stop immediately or else.

You need to make her aware of what she is at risk of losing if she doesn't wake the fu*k up.


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## tom67

anchorwatch said:


> If what you say about your fears is true, at least you recognize it and know you need to change. It took you a long time to get where you are, but you're still young and positive life change can happen. For too long you believed that your happiness is dependent upon the happiness of those around you. So you put their wants and needs below yours, in the hopes that yours might be fulfilled. That's now how life works, We are each responsible for our own happiness, not others.
> 
> Here read these links.You will understand, Do not be put off by the titles...
> 
> No More Mr Nice Guy, Dr Robert Glover
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html
> 
> Here are two success stories...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/85369-she-said-w-man-i-dont-love.html
> 
> 
> Here is another link. It is a list of behaviors for you to enact if she becomes oppositional to repairing the relationship. This will help you detach from the situation while you work on yourself. It's posted in a forum hosted by men, based on Dr Glover's book. Give it a browse.
> 
> The 180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group
> 
> 
> I'm not looking to overwhelm you, only to give you the resources that may help.
> 
> Best


Read these again.


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## 6301

CozyFrost said:


> Thank you all. It feels so much better to just know that someone is listening and caring. I'll re-read everything and sleep on it. Maybe I'll talk to her this weekend. I don't want to interrupt her studying and make her upset during the week.


 I re read your thread and got to tell you that your losing big time even if your reading the No more mister nice guy.

Reason being is that your afraid of upsetting her with her rinky dink college classes that she'll no doubt never use and in the mean time she's pining after a kid young enough to be her son and SHE'S LYING TO YOU. 

She's telling you that there's nothing wrong and you know full well that something is big time wrong.

Now you can wait until next week to confront her and then it will be put off for another reason then another week and here's the kicker.

You didn't sneak. She's the one that asked you to fix her computer and you did and while your were putting the machine back in order you found it.

How much more weight do you have to lose before you open your mouth. If you lost twenty five pounds then your wife should have noticed that by now and and asked you what's going on. 

Stop wasting time. Sit her down and tell her what you know, how you know about it and that your not putting up with it and if by chance you find your balls, let her know that if she has the hots for this guy that much then pack up and go live with him.

What do you think will happen when she shows up at his place. Either he'll call the police or his parents will because he's no doubt living with them. 

Stop playing games and deal with the problem.


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## bandit.45

I simply don't get any of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CozyFrost

So very clear and so very obvious, but yet so entrenched in my thinking that I practically need to be beaten up online to understand. You're all right. I'm a conflict avoider of epic proportions and it's ruining my life.

I'll have this whole charade end on Saturday. Before you all think I'm postponing until that day out of fear I can say that you're absolutely right, but Saturday it is because she's gone to her parents for today and tomorrow (no school and no Facebook) and that also gives me some extra time to read up on all the advice, links and other threads you've all given me. Most importantly though it gives me a few days to man up. 

I can see from a few posts that the writer find me utterly pathetic and unfortunately that is true, but the last 24 hours have really changed my perception and I'm actually a lot less pathetic today than yesterday. A few more and....

By Saturday evening this real-life soap opera will be over one way or the other and I'll be back here updating. After that I guess I either be reading over grief-handling or be somewhat proud of myself. Time will tell.

Thanks for having my back.


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## 3Xnocharm

CozyFrost said:


> By Saturday evening this real-life soap opera will be over one way or the other and I'll be back here updating. After that I guess I either be reading over grief-handling or be somewhat proud of myself. Time will tell.
> 
> Thanks for having my back.


No matter what the outcome, BE PROUD of yourself! You will be doing something that is very hard and very against your nature up to this point. And its the truth that women WANT their man to fight for them, to stand up for them and to show strength. She NEEDS this from you.


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## phillybeffandswiss

LongWalk said:


> Although there is some chance that her crush would sleep with her, the majority of guys in college are not entertaining the idea of having sex with a much older woman.


You need to add the proper context because in this situation, you'd be wrong. She's a teacher and this would be a notch/conquest type of sex act. It isn't like some random woman off the street.


> I can see from a few posts that the writer find me utterly pathetic and unfortunately that is true, but the last 24 hours have really changed my perception and I'm actually a lot less pathetic today than yesterday. A few more and....


Pathetic? No. Just a guy who drank the cater to my wife in all things Kool-Aid. You just have to learn how to respect yourself and then respect your wife. If you were doing the same things, you KNOW your wife wouldn't tolerate it at all.


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## CozyFrost

I'll probably take a little posting break although I'll be lurking around. Yesterday, thanks to the people on this board, was wake-up day. Felt good and invigorating and I went to bed full of energy. Today is "reality-just-came-knocking....and it was far from beautiful"-day and I'm friggin' ready for clinical depression trials. No worries, I've never had, nor ever will have any harm myself behavior, but if I ever did today would be a good day to seek help. 

Glad my wife is away because I haven't been able to get out of bed except for fixing breakfast in bed for her, which I always do (Good Guy sucker). Been reading and found that I've completely thrown away, at the very least, 5 years of my life, but possibly more than twice as much. I work, but I've thrown away my career spending all my time helping others. I've seriously neglected my wife helping every friggin' person on the planet and it's a miracle she hasn't divorced me. I've spent abhorrent amounts of money on presents and shelters for people I hardly know and still I have almost no friends and virtually never get invited to anything. I've socially isolated myself and dragged my poor wife with me down the road of meaninglessness. 

I can not believe that no one has stopped me. I can not believe that a group of strangers on the Internet woke me up from my nightmare and not anyone close to me. Guess that's evidence enough I don't have anyone close to me. I have such a long way to go and so many problems to deal with that today my brain just shut down. 

The Married Man Sex Primer is a good book, but I'm so far away from the message in that book that it's useless for me right now. Continuing to read The Good Guy book and these boards. Any other links or tips are always appreciated.

Good news section: I've failed my wife miserably and pushed her away, but I do love her and some 22-year old skateboarder with pants halfway down his ass sure as hell ain't going to take her away. Actually, I need to save her from herself before she takes a gigantic leap into the ocean of patheticness. She's mine and she has all the right to divorce me, but the right to run away with kindergarten-man she has not.


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## 3Xnocharm

You fix her breakfast in bed every day?? Oh dude...that needs to stop. I am so glad that you have had this wake-up, because your wife is DYING for you to take control and be strong! I hope you keep posting so that we can follow your growth.


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## Roselyn

I teach, 25 years at the university level. I have older and younger students like this 22 years old. Young male students are attracted to their age group. This guy could be gay and not attracted to females at all. However, to be on the safe side, talk to your wife about her obsession with this young man in a non-confrontational way. She might be mourning for her lost youth and trying to look back at a younger stage in life that she might wish she still has. Be a friend to her and show some empathy. Her obsession needs to stop however, as this bothers you. Let her know in a gentle way. By the way, Facebook is not essential to college life. I choose not to have a Facebook account and I have some online classes.


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## turnera

CozyFrost said:


> So does that give her the right to do what she's been doing? No. Will me confronting her now change anything? Probably not and here's why. I'm such a wreck and a wuss around her that would any of you see how I behave around my wife you would probably shoot me out pure compassion. I can only do damage to the very little self-esteem I have left if I confront her now. She "owns" me completely and she knows it. A confrontation now she would win in less than five minutes and probably have me begging to pay for her vacation with the 22-year old within 7 minutes.
> 
> The good thing though is that I've decided to join the support group and make some radical changes. I will also work on the 180-program and the book strategies religiously. The thing is that I haven't always been like this. I was actually the polar opposite up until my early 30s. Sometime after that I lost myself.
> 
> I will work hard on all of this for at least a month and then see how far along I've come and if I have made any measurable progress that translates into courage. If by then she has crossed the line I will also have to work on my fear of being alone.


So...you are chickening out on confronting because you now have an EXCUSE to chicken out? :scratchhead:

She'll be screwing him within the week.


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## Chaparral

FIrate off, hey silly notion that you should be guily of reading her stuff. You are the leader of your family. It's your responsibility to fix problems and investigate any problem you see. You should feel guilty for not investigating sooner. That's why 80% of affairs go undetected.


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## john117

Did you ever think of starting a general conversation about how it feels to be an older student surrounded by younger ones? I did that for a few years as did my wife, both mid late 30's during grad school.

Try to expand on the conversation but you have to make sure it's a long LONG one that covers things like "how do your classmates view you" and the like. Older men have no problem with younger women generally - I have interns every year and was a TA in college - and from what I saw my wife had no problems either. 

Watch her reactions carefully and see how she responds and what she says and what she doesn't say. 

Pick her up from class on occasion and use it as an opportunity to fish out any emotional information. 

Depending on her state of mind and how confident you are in your verbal fishing skills you could bring it within 10% of her realizing you know. Then observe her following this discussion. If she reverts to the old self vs new self...

If she clams up tell her you have information etc etc...


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## turnera

You could add my DD's viewpoint. When she was in college, she had an age limit on guys she would date - no more than 5 years older than her at any point. She said that anyone more than 5 years older than her was just GROSS. Guys probably have a bigger leeway, seeing how they just want to screw, but 20 years might be pushing it.


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## synthetic

CozyFrost,

Read this link RIGHT NOW: Don't postpone this one:

DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?


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## CozyFrost

I read all your posts and reflect upon each and every one of them. I can say like this. The bullet point list I wrote to confront her 48 hours ago has been thrown out in its entierty. It was apologetic, romantically sleezy and above all pathetic. I'm very happy I didn't confront her 48 hours ago. The new list is a no list. I will not entangle myself in a Harlequin book type of intrigues. I will basically just say three things: I know this. It has to stop. Your move; him or me? I might also add that I find her behaviour reprehensible and if it was me doing what she's doing she would consider me a sleezy old man and rightfully so. Don't know if I'll throw in the last part though. 

I'm still a wreck, but actually much less of a wreck than 48 hours ago. I've also included a few of the alpha tactics from the books and links I was sent in my approach and it's really scary how fast and efficient they work. 

Now I'm going to focus on the DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED? text. Fact of a matter is that I more and more realize that I've been mixing love with fear of abandonment. It saddens me tremendously, but I believe that my marriage has worked as an excuse to not deal with myself and realize my own potential. I'm starting to believe that even as terrifying as it sounds to me I should maybe move along on my own. 

I've never had any problems to find girls and that in itself has caused my problems. I've never been without a girlfriend or wife since I was 14. First girlfriend 2 years, replaced instantly by second girlfriend 3 years, replaced instantly by third girlfriend 2 years, replaced instantly by fourth girlfriend 2 years, replaced with my current wife. It doesn't take much of analytical skills to notice that I suffer from serious attachment issues. I should probably address those or I will die a needy little wuss.


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## turnera

Are you saying you're going to send her a text?


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## anchorwatch

Don't be so hard on yourself, CF. There's nothing wrong with lifelong companionship, with a life partner who appreciates living with a fully integrated individual. 

Like Thor said, you're going to make mistakes along the way. That's how we learn. Learning is a lifelong journey. 

Something inside you has awakened. You're on the right track now, it is about you and the personal boundaries that define who you are. Once you find your way, you will lead the way. 

Personal boundaries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



For your library...

Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life, 'Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend 
Or, Boundaries in Marriage, Cloud and Townsend


Sent you a PM. 

Best


----------



## turnera

One thing you might want to remember is that this man, at 22, is at the height of his alpha game - full adult, the world at his feet, ready to take on anything. Something YOU probably represented to her when you two were that age. You have pulled WAY back from that person you may have been at one time. You are no longer attractive to her in the primal way that women need. Now that you're learning, you're trying to insert snippets of that kind of man and you say she's responding. If you were to just say him or me at this point, she just might say him, because he represents a complete package. Of course he'd just humiliate her, but she can't see that in her affair fog.

I'm watching the new show Utopia, and there's this 40-something woman who turns night and day when dealing with the group and when she deals with a young virile man - her voice goes up a couple octaves, she can't stop smiling, she giggles, she touches them on the arm, she says REALLY stupid things like 'You're MY eye candy!' to them. We all see it as pathetic, but she can't see it. That's what your wife is dealing with. 

I tell you this to explain that, when you confront her, you have to bring with it your explanation of your newfound knowledge of YOUR mistake, YOUR trail into Nice Guy - and explain to her that that guy is no more. THIS guy is going to reclaim his marriage or, if she doesn't want to go along for the ride, a future marriage. Show her that you are a new guy, a strong guy, who will lead your marriage and take her breath away. In her MLC-fogged mind, that's what she's seeking.


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## bandit.45

Whether or not you send her a list or just make it simple is not the issue. The issue is you have known about this for weeks and have done nothing. Nothing. And you are continuing to do nothing. 

Do something.


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## LongWalk

I would not confront since this is unlikely to go PA. Do the 180. Work on self. Every time you speak to your wife, review what you are going to say before you open your mouth. Usually it is better to say less and do more. Relationship talk is generally not the solution.

March to higher ground and as the waters rise your wife will rush up to join you.


----------



## Thor

CozyFrost said:


> I will basically just say three things: I know this. It has to stop. Your move; him or me? I might also add that I find her behaviour reprehensible and if it was me doing what she's doing she would consider me a sleezy old man and rightfully so. Don't know if I'll throw in the last part though.


First, I would leave in the last part. But I'd be interested in the hive opinion on that one.

The one thing I'd change in your 3 points is I would not make it overtly her decision. That is, don't make it "her move". This gives her the power and makes you look weak. Rather, make it your boundary. This may seem like semantics but it is an important psychological point.

So you tell her you know what is going on, and you will not stay with a woman who is diverting her affections outside of the marriage. If you want to add on to that, you could then be very specific that if she does not end this emotional affair you will end the marriage. (I found that I had to be very very specific with my wife when setting a boundary around dishonesty and trickle truth.) It doesn't hurt to be specific, just be sure it is presented as a boundary rather than as a threat or that you are trying to tell her what to do.

So you never tell her "You have to do what I say, and I say stop doing that". You never tell her "You choose, him or me. I'll go along with whatever you want". The first one is controlling, the second one is weak doormat.

The strong option is "I will not allow myself to be treated poorly or disrespected, and I will remove myself from such a relationship".


----------



## CozyFrost

Once again, thank you all. I thank too much, but then again I have this debilitating condition called Good Guy Syndrome so any time anyone cares about me I get an instant jolt of shame and need to thank a lot. If I was Japanese I would be bowed over 23 hours and 57 minutes of the day.

About the list thing. I probably screwed up rhetorically, but I sure as hell ain't going to send her a text message or give her a list on paper. The list was just a written explanation of what I was planning to say. You should have seen the letter I had intended to give her before finding this forum....oh my oh my!

However, as often the last couple of days insight is received from other forum members and anchorwatch, Thor, turnera and LongWalk all have valid points. I know the consensus has been that I should confront as fast as possible, but I can say I'm sure glad I didn't. You guys/girls sure has manned-me-up. tremendously over just 72 hours and if I had run head first into my initial approach I'd be om Prozac right now with tears pouring out of my eyes mixed with uncontrollable drool coming from my mouth.

She's still away until tomorrow morning so I still have one more day at least to straighten out my seriously twisted priorities.

Thanks for having my back.


----------



## turnera

Yes, make this about what YOU will do for her poor behavior. You show a boundary - you want a wife, not a lovestruck schoolgirl - and a consequence - what YOU will do if she steps over your boundary - remove yourself from her vicinity. Then she is free to continue on, knowing that she will lose her husband and her cushy life. No control there (which she will surely throw at you). You simply deserve better than this.

And never ever apologize to her. Not now. Not until she's completely out of the fog, and THEN only apologize for not seeing that you needed to lead the family better.


----------



## turnera

One thing to remember, I've seen this dozens of times. You Nice Guys get a jolt of reality, read the books and say OMG, that's ME! and absorb as much of the information as you can, and say you're a new person, you'll never be that Nice Guy again cos you now know better and then wham! she scolds you and fold like a playing card tower.

You don't just stop being a Nice Guy. You have to WORK at it, consistently, every single day, in big ways and small, in EVERY aspect of your life. It has to be on your mind constantly and if possible with the help of a good therapist. You have a whole life of pattern, habit, and brain wiring to overcome to not instantly revert back to Nice Guy at the first sign of trouble. Remember that. Don't expect a lot from yourself for the next few months. IME, it's usually taken Nice Guys a good one to two full YEARS to get it out of their system; that's how hardwired it is in your brain. So don't go charging in there expecting to tell her what's what and you won't cave once she starts the tears or the guilt or the anger - cos you WILL cave. Accept that, and always provide yourself an escape from every situation. "I have to think on that." "I'll give you an answer later." "Let me think about it." Practice those in your head so that when she puts on the heat to protect her addiction to this numnutz you can leave the room and not promise her the moon.


----------



## Thor

Nice Guy recovery does take years, and it is never totally out of your system. Setbacks are to be expected, especially at first.

The book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" is mandatory for Nice Guys. It is a toolbox of tactics. Especially with a wife or other close person who has learned to manipulate the Nice Guy, these tools help break their attempts.

Broken Record. Fogging. Negative Assertion. Negative Inquiry. These things really work, even the first time.


----------



## john117

Just a reminder from someone who spent a decade in the Psych building - not as a patient  - it is very easy to pick up a pop psych book or two and start freaking out OMG that's wee me type.

Even professional type books often make it way too easy to self diagnose things that aren't there, or their magnitude. (Looking at my copy of DSM IV.)...

Unless one is a complete ahole one is not likely to be far from the Nice Guy characterization. How far is the $64k question.

We all do Nice Things - what's different is how they are perceived by others and whether they serve their purpose. 

If OP can't outthink / outfox his star struck wife in this issue then he's got other things to worry about in my view.


----------



## CozyFrost

To anchorwatch, turnera, Thor and John117 I can say that I pretty much follow your advice to the word. I might sometimes sound overly optimistic in having read these texts provided and as John117 said most paper in the self-help section at bookstores is just utter nonsense. 

However, I haven't just been a Good Guy. I've been a Good Guy on crack. Here's just one example from my life. There are many. I bet any of you make dinner for your wives once in a while. Well, I bet you don't buy and pay for all the groceries all the time, serve breakfast in bed EVERY morning, often with a fresh flower added, cook all meals (high class meals based only on organic food. Not mac and cheese) for dinner while she sits and watches TV or reads a book and then do all the dishes myself afterward....EVERY day now for over 5 years and I do mean EVERY day.

I've been miserable for at the very least five years until I found this forum. No one has ever told me any of the stuff you're helping me with and it's not just the Good Guy book. Susan Anderson's book The Journey from Heartbreak to Connection ,which I was indirectly recommended here, is a great book for an abandoholic like me. 

Do I think this will turn me into Mystery & Style by the weekend? No, but progress so far has been going in the right direction. My mood is like a sinus-curve; euphoric one second, ECT-candidate the next. _Don't send me any links that I'm also bipolar  I have enough problems to deal with_. But I really starting to feel slightly better and I don't think it's just placebo. I also think I feel a lot less alone because of you guys and that gives me strength.


----------



## ne9907

Perhaps someone has already mentioned this, but your wife needs proffesional psychiatric help.


----------



## john117

I'll FedEx you my copy of DSM IV which should provide plenty of good reading  just don't take it too seriously...

Keep in mind some people simply have higher standards and are nice people (not necessarily because they are Nice People). My older daughter has housekeeping and cooking standards that would put a cruise ship crew to shame. And she's in college in a very demanding major. 

Sure, nice people AND Nice People can be taken advantage of, but with the right techniques so can Stage 4 aholes. 

I'm generally a nice guy and occasionally a Nice Guy but I'm very goal driven and can manipulate things as needed...

My neighbor was a super aggressive Alpha CEO type who thought it would be a cool experience to cheat with the (Michelin man sized) Estonian nanny. His wife - a traffic stopping woman of 40 and a manipulator of epic size - also cheated on him... So it's not like any group of people has the monopoly on taking advantage of or being taken advantage of...


----------



## turnera

ne9907 said:


> Perhaps someone has already mentioned this, but your wife needs proffesional psychiatric help.


No, she just needs to stop being spoiled.


----------



## LongWalk

Her in-love high is going to end sooner or later. The question is whether you are willing to end it sooner.

Stop doing all the housework, dude. Stop eating with her.


----------



## turnera

Good point. What one chore can you stop doing, and tell her you'd like her to pick up the slack on it? That's an important way to start feeling like you're moving on from Nice Guy, to not PHYSICALLY be a doormat.


----------



## ricky15100

*Re: Re: Should I let her know that I know?*



Thor said:


> First, I would leave in the last part. But I'd be interested in the hive opinion on that one.
> 
> The one thing I'd change in your 3 points is I would not make it overtly her decision. That is, don't make it "her move". This gives her the power and makes you look weak. Rather, make it your boundary. This may seem like semantics but it is an important psychological point.
> 
> So you tell her you know what is going on, and you will not stay with a woman who is diverting her affections outside of the marriage. If you want to add on to that, you could then be very specific that if she does not end this emotional affair you will end the marriage. (I found that I had to be very very specific with my wife when setting a boundary around dishonesty and trickle truth.) It doesn't hurt to be specific, just be sure it is presented as a boundary rather than as a threat or that you are trying to tell her what to do.
> 
> So you never tell her "You have to do what I say, and I say stop doing that". You never tell her "You choose, him or me. I'll go along with whatever you want". The first one is controlling, the second one is weak doormat.
> 
> The strong option is "I will not allow myself to be treated poorly or disrespected, and I will remove myself from such a relationship".


This


----------



## CozyFrost

So here's the update. I'll stick to the main points and hope to get some very needed feedback because I'm at, what might turn out to be, the most important threshold of my life.

Confrontation happened friday night and I pretty much stuck to Thor's script. We've never been the yelling and screaming couple so even this conversation was calm. No patheticness on my part and very to the point without any touchy-feely crap. What I found out though was that my wife had no problem lying to me. She had no idea how much I knew and I trapped her in lie after lie. The discussion continued Saturday morning. She had a very articulate explanation that she felt that I had neglected her when my Good Guy behavior went into overdrive and that I left a void that this guy in a way had filled when she felt lonely and she's right about that. Regarding how we should move forward we talked and there was no hesitation on her part that she wanted to stay together. She was also very clear about how crazy her behavior had been and how crazy and unsustainable this little dream is.

So I should be happy, right? Well, I'm not and here's why.

She doesn't know how extensive my surrveilance has been and as a tactic I left out the fact that I knew anything about the diaries. Well, without any hesitation she went right back to her diary and spent almost an hour with it when I was sitting waiting for us to go out and have dinner at a restaurant on Saturday. Same thing on Sunday before we went for our weekly run. She also repeatedly brought up the subject of him throughout the day saying she felt bad, but asking me questions that I almost felt more sounded like badly veiled approach tactics.

The past 48 hours has revealed a few facts, but triggered even more questions.

*What I know*: Nothing has happened between them (100% certainty), but according to her he is madly in love with her but too shy to admit it so instead he communicates his love through the love song playlists he shares with his 500 friends on Facebook. Apparently the lyrics is his way of communicating. I asked if she was really sure that they were solely aimed at her or anyone for that matter and that it was a little strange that he hadn't made a single attempt to maybe ask to go for coffee or something, but she's 100 % sure of his affection towards her and says that he only ignores her because he's too afraid to take the first step. It could be true I don't know. I'm so confused, starved, sleep-deprived and depressed that I'm starting to lose grip on reality. 

*What I believe:* My wife knows that this whole "affair" is crazy and taking it further will in the long-run probably only hurt her, but she can't stop. She tries to maintain a facade of rationality, but she's completely possessed by this guy and frankly I believe she thinks about him non-stop. I believe that one flip of his fingers and he would have her sitting in his lap. I believe she only see's me as comfort and support, basically a friend. I also kind of feel like I irritate her the few times I accidently run into her while she's at the computer.

*What I don't know:* What to do? I'm seriously lost here. Sure, I can continue the 180, I can act cool and distant, but I already feel like I lost her and that is really killing me. I wasn't in the best mental shape before, but at the very least I felt like I had hope. Now, even that is slipping out of my hands. 

What should I do? What would any of you guys do? I'm so mentally sedated by all this that even the simplest decisions feels like climbing a mountain and absolutely all my energy is spent acting cool and collected in her presence. I believe I have a week, maybe two left in the tank before complete breakdown.


----------



## synthetic

> What I don't know: What to do? I'm seriously lost here.


You file for divorce.

It's the most meaningful action that can easily be reversed if circumstances call for it.

You will most likely never be able to trust your wife again regardless of the outcome of this situation. That's not to be taken lightly. I personally couldn't live that way.

Instead of breaking down, take a page out of the cheaters' script and realize all the options you will automatically have as a result of 'losing' your wife. Frankly, at this moment she doesn't sound like much of a loss.

Don't even think about entertaining her bullsh1t about you neglecting her and such crap. That's the most laughable excuse cheaters come up with. In essence, anything short of "honey, I'm your slave, please treat me as such" could be interpreted as 'neglect' by cheaters.

You haven't done anything wrong here, and your wife continues to lie or trickle the truth even after getting caught. That's all you need to know about her priorities. 

Give her what she's asking for via her actions: DIVORCE.

If she realizes her mistake, you will have many chances to stop the process.


----------



## farsidejunky

I will echo Synthetic. Nothing like a good dose of reality to slap her out of the affair fog.

Additionally, exposure of her "crush" to her family and friends would also be advisable.

If a guy timed it right, he could have her served and expose in a 24 hour period. 

If those two actions don't clear the fog, I would continue with divorce. That would clearly tell you she is long gone.

ETA: well done in not revealing your source. Now you see why.


----------



## Tobyboy

CozyFrost said:


> So here's the update. I'll stick to the main points and hope to get some very needed feedback because I'm at, what might turn out to be, the most important threshold of my life.
> 
> Confrontation happened friday night and I pretty much stuck to Thor's script. We've never been the yelling and screaming couple so even this conversation was calm. No patheticness on my part and very to the point without any touchy-feely crap. What I found out though was that my wife had no problem lying to me. She had no idea how much I knew and I trapped her in lie after lie. The discussion continued Saturday morning. She had a very articulate explanation that she felt that I had neglected her when my Good Guy behavior went into overdrive and that I left a void that this guy in a way had filled when she felt lonely and she's right about that. Regarding how we should move forward we talked and there was no hesitation on her part that she wanted to stay together. She was also very clear about how crazy her behavior had been and how crazy and unsustainable this little dream is.
> 
> So I should be happy, right? Well, I'm not and here's why.
> 
> She doesn't know how extensive my surrveilance has been and as a tactic I left out the fact that I knew anything about the diaries. Well, without any hesitation she went right back to her diary and spent almost an hour with it when I was sitting waiting for us to go out and have dinner at a restaurant on Saturday. Same thing on Sunday before we went for our weekly run. She also repeatedly brought up the subject of him throughout the day saying she felt bad, but asking me questions that I almost felt more sounded like badly veiled approach tactics.
> 
> The past 48 hours has revealed a few facts, but triggered even more questions.
> 
> *What I know*: Nothing has happened between them (100% certainty), but according to her he is madly in love with her but too shy to admit it so instead he communicates his love through the love song playlists he shares with his 500 friends on Facebook. Apparently the lyrics is his way of communicating. I asked if she was really sure that they were solely aimed at her or anyone for that matter and that it was a little strange that he hadn't made a single attempt to maybe ask to go for coffee or something, but she's 100 % sure of his affection towards her and says that he only ignores her because he's too afraid to take the first step. It could be true I don't know. I'm so confused, starved, sleep-deprived and depressed that I'm starting to lose grip on reality.
> 
> *What I believe:* My wife knows that this whole "affair" is crazy and taking it further will in the long-run probably only hurt her, but she can't stop. She tries to maintain a facade of rationality, but she's completely possessed by this guy and frankly I believe she thinks about him non-stop. I believe that one flip of his fingers and he would have her sitting in his lap. I believe she only see's me as comfort and support, basically a friend. I also kind of feel like I irritate her the few times I accidently run into her while she's at the computer.
> 
> *What I don't know:* What to do? I'm seriously lost here. Sure, I can continue the 180, I can act cool and distant, but I already feel like I lost her and that is really killing me. I wasn't in the best mental shape before, but at the very least I felt like I had hope. Now, even that is slipping out of my hands.
> 
> What should I do? What would any of you guys do? I'm so mentally sedated by all this that even the simplest decisions feels like climbing a mountain and absolutely all my energy is spent acting cool and collected in her presence. I believe I have a week, maybe two left in the tank before complete breakdown.


Your W has lost her sh!t!!!!! She's delusional!!!! 
She's needs help!! Im talking "straight jacket, padded walls" type of help!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Filing for,divorce may seem extreme, but it takes extreme measures to break a cheater out of the temporary insanity they are in. Your WW is in pure la la land. She diaries because if she can write her justifications down and concentrate on them, she doesn't have to listen to her conscience, which is telling her she is making the biggest mistake of her life.

Go see a lawyer. File. Expose her to friends, family and colleagues. Have her served and then stand back and watch what happens. She will either cave in and collapse into a puddle of mush begging you not to divorce her, or she will wave her fist in your face and spit out horrible accusations and disparagements at you. It can go to both extremes. 

Stop jogging with her. Stop dining with her. Stop being her husband. She doesn't want you as a lover, she wants you as a human ATM. Right now she is planning to take her affair underground. I would not be surprised if she did not go to the OM and consummate the relationship in the next week, because you have forced her hand. She feels like she is living in a Harlequin romance novel. She is in total fantasyland and she's getting off on having two men vying for her affections. Well, do what Rhett Butler did to Scarlet O'Hara....take yourself out of the equation. Let your wife have her boy toy. Tell her to take her fine romance and shove it up her ass, that you aren't sticking around to watch the house if cards come tumbling down. 

Don't let her blame you for the lack of happiness in her life. Marriage is not about happiness. It's a partnership. Sometimes things are happy, sometimes they are not. It ebbs and flows. 

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, special about your wife. She is displaying all the same lousy personality traits that any cheater does: blame shifts her mistakes, won't hold herself accountable, lacks empathy....nothing special about her at all. 

After filing, go out and find yourself a cute little undergrad to keep you warm at night.


----------



## Chaparral

Go hard 180. When she asks why, tell her she lied through her teeth and she's still.lying. 

Stop doing anything for her. Fix your own breakfast. Tell her to get the young boy to fix hers.

Tell her you need to sit down and divide up your property. Tell her she needs to go stay with her parents. And tell her folks what she's doing now.

Frankly, I'm not sure your wife is all there.


----------



## turnera

I would do this:
File for divorce and give her the paperwork. Tell her that without her showing extreme measures to show she is remorseful and gets it, you have no choice but to leave her. Tell her that you will put the divorce on hold ONLY if you see real work from her; thus, this is all 100% up to her.

Tell her to hand over her passwords and her electronics any time you ask for it, until you feel sure her 'fling' is done with; if she balks, she can start moving out TODAY. Do NOT back down on this; it's VITAL that she see a strong you who will NOT let her get away with secrecy in this marriage any longer; offer her your passwords as well.

Tell her that she must write out a No Contact letter to him that you will approve and send for her.

Tell her that, while you understand she felt lonely, you accept NO BLAME for her choice to break her vows; so don't even TRY to go there one.more.time. If she does, you will move the divorce through immediately.

Tell her that she MUST find a competent MC that YOU agree with (you can check their reviews) and have an appointment made within the next week, with the actual appointment occurring within the next two weeks. If not, you will push the divorce through.

Tell her that she must find a competent IC that you agree with so that she comes to understand what this MLC or whatever it is and gets OVER it, because you won't stay with a woman who thinks she's settling. You deserve better.


----------



## Tobyboy

"What I know: Nothing has happened between them (100% certainty), but according to her he is madly in love with her but too shy to admit it so instead he communicates his love through the love song playlists he shares with his 500 friends on Facebook. Apparently the lyrics is his way of communicating. I asked if she was really sure that they were solely aimed at her or anyone for that matter and that it was a little strange that he hadn't made a single attempt to maybe ask to go for coffee or something, but she's 100 % sure of his affection towards her and says that he only ignores her because he's too afraid to take the first step. It could be true I don't know. I'm so confused, starved, sleep-deprived and depressed that I'm starting to lose grip on reality. "

There is NO affair!!
This is not affair fog talk!!!
This is something much worse. 
The only solution I see, is to warn the kid about your W's unhealthy obsession and to protect himself.......you also Frosty. This will not end well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Tobyboy said:


> Your W has lost her sh!t!!!!! She's delusional!!!!
> 
> She's needs help!! Im talking "straight jacket, padded walls" type of help!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm thinking this as well. Rational people of that age can tell reality from non reality.

Methinks she's using the "affair" to cover or mask or mitigate something far more significant in her past...


----------



## turnera

Her having to send a letter to this guy just might force her to face reality.


----------



## happyman64

Frost

How can your wife say you ignored her when she was lonely?

You are always up her bum! Some British wit for you.

I don't know if I would file for divorce yet but it may come to that drastic, shock measure.

All I will say is she needs to get her head out of the clouds, out of facebook.

And stop being her Plan B. 

I bet you were home waiting for her to come back from her parents weren't you???

HM


----------



## ReidWright

turnera said:


> Her having to send a letter to this guy just might force her to face reality.


I don't know if this guy even remembers this woman...she's just one of 500 on his distribution list for his personal DJing hobby or whatever.

I think she's gone bipolar...delusions of grandeur. This guy is communicating secretly only to her? next it'll be that he's communicating telepathically to her via the toaster.


----------



## norajane

Wow, she is deep into her delusions! I think only a psychiatrist can help her - there is no way to get through to a person who thinks her crush is secretly communicating with her through song lyrics on FB. 

I would insist on therapy at this point. Non-negotiable, individual counseling and marriage counseling. There is no going forward with a marriage otherwise.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

norajane said:


> Wow, she is deep into her delusions! I think only a psychiatrist can help her - there is no way to get through to a person who thinks her crush is secretly communicating with her through song lyrics on FB.
> 
> I would insist on therapy at this point. Non-negotiable, individual counseling and marriage counseling. There is no going forward with a marriage otherwise.


OMG, yes! This was my exact thought as well! She is seriously deluded! I can only imagine what this kid would think if this were exposed to him!

I think filing for divorce should be your course of action. Like someone else said, you can stop it at any point. I think the only other thing that would help snap her out of it is to print out several pages of her "diary" and drop them in her lap... LITERALLY. (that reveals your source tho, so if it backfires, prepare to file divorce anyway)


----------



## happy as a clam

ReidWright said:


> I think she's gone bipolar...*delusions of grandeur.* This guy is communicating secretly only to her? next it'll be that he's communicating telepathically to her via the toaster.


Exactly. She needs to see a shrink. Not a counselor. She's definitely not dealing with reality.

And I would make backup copies of the diaries (I believe you said you already have) and blow the lid off this thing to her family.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

CozyFrost said:


> However, I haven't just been a Good Guy. I've been a Good Guy on crack. Here's just one example from my life. There are many. I bet any of you make dinner for your wives once in a while. Well, I bet you don't buy and pay for all the groceries all the time, serve breakfast in bed EVERY morning, often with a fresh flower added, cook all meals (high class meals based only on organic food. Not mac and cheese) for dinner while she sits and watches TV or reads a book and then do all the dishes myself afterward....EVERY day now for over 5 years and I do mean EVERY day.


Treat a woman like a queen and she will treat you like the servant you become.



> Regarding how we should move forward we talked and there was no hesitation on her part that she wanted to stay together.


This means you have more power over her than you realize. She only does what she does because she knows she can get away with it. You've been so passive/submissive that she has no fear of you leaving her thus no motivations to do the right thing. 

You are an enabler.



> My wife knows that this whole "affair" is crazy and taking it further will in the long-run probably only hurt her, but she can't stop. She tries to maintain a facade of rationality, but she's completely possessed by this guy and frankly I believe she thinks about him non-stop. I believe that one flip of his fingers and he would have her sitting in his lap. I believe she only see's me as comfort and support, basically a friend. I also kind of feel like I irritate her the few times I accidently run into her while she's at the computer.


She has no motivation to quit. Hurting your feelings is not an issue for her, she probably feels you deserve it for acting so weak.

Everyone is saying file for a divorce and for good reason. It's a tool so show you will no longer tolerate her behavior and shows you have some self respect. Don't worry, only half of people that file actually follow through. 

Tough love is the only way. Nice behavior is affair enabling behavior. You can't compete with an OM and even trying makes you look pathetic because you acknowledge he's a threat to you. It would almost be rewarding your W for what she is doing to even try.

Your wife will start caring more about you when you start to care more about yourself.


----------



## Chaparral

Hmmmmmmm, so she's a stalker then?


----------



## CozyFrost

synthetic said:


> You file for divorce.
> You will most likely never be able to trust your wife again regardless of the outcome of this situation. That's not to be taken lightly. I personally couldn't live that way.
> 
> Give her what she's asking for via her actions: DIVORCE..


I'm afraid you're right. This has really hurt me very bad. So bad that it's starting to take on physical manifestations; losing feelings in the tips of my fingers and an increasing numbness in my tongue.



Tobyboy said:


> Your W has lost her sh!t!!!!! She's delusional!!!!
> She's needs help!! Im talking "straight jacket, padded walls" type of help!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Chaparral said:


> Frankly, I'm not sure your wife is all there.





Tobyboy said:


> There is NO affair!!
> This is not affair fog talk!!!
> This is something much worse.
> The only solution I see, is to warn the kid about your W's unhealthy obsession and to protect himself.......you also Frosty. This will not end well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





ReidWright said:


> I don't know if this guy even remembers this woman...she's just one of 500 on his distribution list for his personal DJing hobby or whatever.
> 
> I think she's gone bipolar...delusions of grandeur. This guy is communicating secretly only to her? next it'll be that he's communicating telepathically to her via the toaster.





norajane said:


> Wow, she is deep into her delusions! I think only a psychiatrist can help her - there is no way to get through to a person who thinks her crush is secretly communicating with her through song lyrics on FB.
> 
> I would insist on therapy at this point. Non-negotiable, individual counseling and marriage counseling. There is no going forward with a marriage otherwise.





3Xnocharm said:


> OMG, yes! This was my exact thought as well! She is seriously deluded! I can only imagine what this kid would think if this were exposed to him!


This is what I can't grasp. Feels very good when you all forcibly say this because I'm going nutcase crazy over thinking if it's true or not. I'm really good with computers and mobile phones and there's nothing, absolutely nothing. He hasn't communicated a word to her in over six months. Well, except that his playlist shows up, but it does for everyone on his FB. I asked about this and her reply was that in spring she said she thought he fell for her and tried to talk to her a few times and she wasn't so nice and he got so hurt he started to send these songs to let her know how he felt and have been doing so ever since. On his FB though he's out partying with girls left and right and seem to be the happiest kid in the world. 

I just can't get it to add up, but on the other hand I'm losing my own grip on reality so right about now everything starts to seem logical. That's why I'm so immensely thankful to have all of you.

I'm also starting to think that it doesn't really matter if it's true or not because either way I lose. True and they will ride off into the sunset leaving me picking up the pieces of my fake life. Not true and I'm Plan B and I can forever look forward to the next dive into crazy land. In other words a lose-lose situation for me and a big win-smaller win for her.



turnera said:


> I would do this:
> File for divorce and give her the paperwork. Tell her that without her showing extreme measures to show she is remorseful and gets it, you have no choice but to leave her. Tell her that you will put the divorce on hold ONLY if you see real work from her; thus, this is all 100% up to her.





ArmyofJuan said:


> She has no motivation to quit. Hurting your feelings is not an issue for her, she probably feels you deserve it for acting so weak.
> 
> Everyone is saying file for a divorce and for good reason. It's a tool so show you will no longer tolerate her behavior and shows you have some self respect. Don't worry, only half of people that file actually follow through.


I'm more and more leaning this way and having read all your replies it seems as if this is the only solution that will not "kill" me metaphorically speaking.



happyman64 said:


> I bet you were home waiting for her to come back from her parents weren't you???
> 
> HM


Yes, but this time not holding her slippers in hand offering imported Danish green tea and her favorite magazine. I even left her dishes the same evening. She asked me if this was some new thing I'd started.



john117 said:


> I'm thinking this as well. Rational people of that age can tell reality from non reality.
> 
> Methinks she's using the "affair" to cover or mask or mitigate something far more significant in her past...


I think you may be the closest to what's going on. The past year has shown other abnormalities before "golden boy" showed up and she has voiced many many regrets about her childhood and younger life.



bandit.45 said:


> After filing, go out and find yourself a cute little undergrad to keep you warm at night.


First time I actually smiled in a VERY long time. Thank you, bandit.45


----------



## ArmyofJuan

You are at least self aware and that's an important step. Rome wasn't built in a day so don't beat yourself up for not being in the right place in your head at the moment. In time you will get there.


----------



## LongWalk

Being in love can be like madness. 

Do the 180 on her. Stop being where she expects you to be.

When comes home from class you should be scarce. 

The Everly Brothers sang a song about dreaming away one's life away on a fantasy love. Put it in her play list.


----------



## Iver

My sense is your wife is mentally ill. This affair is 100% in her mind and the young guy has no idea. She urgently needs to see a pyschiatrist but also must get a full medical exam for starters.

I don't know how much influence her parents have but start with discussing this situation with them. Are you on good terms with them?


----------



## synthetic

To inject some humor here:

Man, the possibilities are endless with this one. You could tell your wife that after looking at the boy's facebook and listening to his playlist, you've started to feel attracted to him yourself and are not sure about your sexuality anymore. Then you can offer a race prize for 'whoever gets him first'!

Sorry man I know this is not funny at all, but in such a crappy situation, it's good to remind yourself who the 'sane' one is here.

Your wife needs help, but not the kind of help that costs YOU your health. She needs to face reality hard. If I were you I would plan a good dose of shock for her by making a total and sudden disappearance alongside filing for divorce. She needs to come home to silent walls and filth. She needs to sleep alone. She needs to wake up alone. She needs a good kick in the ass (mentally)


----------



## norajane

So she was adamant about wanting to remain married, but has not said anything about what she plans to do about her obsessive crush. What does she think happens now? That you will be ok with her obsession and everything will just continue as-is? 

What did she suggest as a way to deal with this problem? Did she acknowledge that it IS a problem?


----------



## bandit.45

Cozy stop beating yourself up and stop second guessing your feelings. You are going through a perfectly normal reaction to your wife's infidelity. 

Your heart is broken. 

It's perfectly okay to feel all the things you are feeling. It's best to just take the pain when it hits and let it process through you. Don't fight it. Go off alone and cry. Go to the top of a remote hill and scream and throw rocks. Cuss and jump up and down. Do what you gotta do. Just don't let that pain stay and fester inside you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

oK... Lets pause for a sec....

OP I'm glad you have us too because I can tell you are someone who needs the voice from the outside to know if your assessment and action is correct, thus you have large self doubt. This will be an issue you will find necessary to spend time addressing in yourself. 

Also... There is a question here... 

Is she delusional *OR*

Is our little 22 year old adept at illiciting narcissistic supply from vulnerable women. Now granted she may have at one point dropped from his radar if he has over 500 people on his facebook, but some Narcissistic types are VERY GOOD at creating (hooking) new and MULTIPLE feeds at one time, thus the songs on his facebook that many women at the same time could 'think' its just for her. I would investigate him a little more... He could be non verbally playing her if he sees her all the time on campus.

WHAT did he say to her that made her think he was totally in love with her, but her reply "hurt" him... 

if it is not the above, your wife may have slipped into mental illness and for that my heart breaks for you. Your compassionate effort for your wife would be to get her to a psychiatrist. pronto...


and keep in mind... you didn't cause her issue, you can't control her issue, and you can't cure her issue, but you ARE the only one who can campaign for her to get help.


----------



## Thor

Get good vigorous exercise. Lift weights, run, bike, do pushups, walk the dog. Whatever you can do, go do. Lots of it. 

Eat healthy. Cut out the junk food. Cut out the cookies, chips, alcohol, tobacco.

Get plenty of sleep.

See your doc if you need some temporary medication. Sleep aids or even some anti-anxiety meds for the very short term might really help.

The first thing to do is take care of yourself.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> She had a very articulate explanation that she felt that I had neglected her when *my Good Guy behavior went into overdrive and that I left a void* that this guy in a way had filled when she felt lonely *and she's right about that.*


Could you explain *what you mean* when you say "she's right." No, not what SHE told you, but what you mean when you accept this blame. Also, I don't want you to self diagnosis yourself and use a book for an explanation. I want you to express, the best you can, what you mean by "she's right about that."


----------



## anchorwatch

CF, How are you today?


----------



## SamuraiJack

Literature?

I bet one of her classes is Medieval lit. 
In which case you are dealing with a sympathetic projection….albeit epically proportioned.

Would you happen to know what classes she is taking?


----------



## CozyFrost

Every time I refresh this page a small glimmer of hope shines in my soul. I know that sounds extremely tacky, but I don't really think you all can understand how much you have meant to me. We're not talking a slight pep-talk kind of help. We're talking being an invisible shield protecting me from going down a very dangerous self-destructive route. 

I'm working on an update that will be up in about an hour. You be the judge if it's the nail in the coffin kind of update or not. 

As always, thank you all for having my back. Even though I'm a Nice Guy I'll never be able to repay you all unless you all fancy organic breakfast in bed every day then I might have a chance.


----------



## farsidejunky

Address coming by pm in 3...2...1...


----------



## CozyFrost

Tuesday update from the family of clinically depressed and clinically psychotic.

You all know the current situation and the agreement that we were going to work on the marriage and that the crazy obsession with golden boy had to be cut off. Well, you have all advised me to divorce the delusional wife that I have loved 10000 times more than myself for the past forever years. Well, throwing away that many years just like that I can't do and even though I knew you were all correct in your analysis I just didn't want to hear it. Being alone from her was just too scary and terrifying.

Well, today something strange happened to me. For the last 2 days the whole diary thing and analyzing playlist lyrics has been non-existent. I have checked the computer and there has been zero activity. I was almost getting hope back and a slight sensation of happiness started to permeate throughout my body. Then I remembered that I had once rooted my phone (the one she now uses) and tried several different spy suites on it. I was going to use them before, but decided against it because it made me feel so creepy. Well, creepy has since become one of my lesser problems and since I still live with a slight degree of distrust I decided to see if any of the suites were still working, but to no avail. All dead. However, I remembered a script that I could send to wake one of them up. Tried it and voila, complete access to EVERYTHING. So what did I find? Well, you already guessed it. Everything has just moved to her mobile phone and intensified. As always not a peep from golden boy in any shape or form, but actually a few love songs posted on his FB. I wondered why she was so happy today and now I know why. Every time he posts a song or several she goes into happiness overdrive.

So did I crash and burn after discovering this? No, something strange happened. I started snickering to myself and a feeling of peace spread throughout my body. It was like all hope disappeared, but instead of desperate emotional pain I felt strangely liberated. 

I don't know if I will fall back into the abyss of heart break, but right now I feel stronger than ever. I want to turn up the heat on my NSA-ing and doing the 180 has been a piece of cake ever since the discovery. I will not file yet because I want to gather as much evidence as possible and I also want her to continue frenetically with her secret crush and deny it to me when I ask. Every time it happens now something dies inside of me and strangely enough it makes me feel stronger.

If I'm going completely overboard crazy I know you guys let me know, but after discovering I actually ate food today instead of drinking a few food supplements and then I went out for a 10K run. First in a month.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Running will truly build on your path... good for you!


----------



## happyman64

Cozy

Your blinders are off.

Keep the focus on you. Your physical health as well as your mental health.

I do not think you need to divorce your wife yet.

I think she needs a good shrink. 

And I bet it wouldnt hurt you to speak to one as well.

HM


----------



## anchorwatch

CF, I believe you need to talk with a professional counselor or trained clergy, to get insight into her behavior and suggestions as to what your options are. 

FYI, This infatuation is an addiction, not unlike a narcotic addiction. Addicts will throw their lives away for a fix and many of those that try to withdraw fail before they succeed. 
Anatomy of an Affair - The Chemistry of Love

Besides agreeing to give up on school boy, what did she actually agree to do, to repair the relationship? MC? See a clergy member? Marriage seminars? Self-help programs? Has she disused any ideas or research any of these resources?


----------



## scatty

Has your wife ever displayed any kind of depressed or manic behavior? Trouble sleeping or delusions of any kind? I only ask because I happen to have a serious mental illness that has involved psychotic and delusional behavior. Sometimes I have tried to deny it to DH because I think everyone is against me and conspiring to put me away.

One time I thought me and an ex had a "spiritual connection" and that I was going to have his baby and him, me, DH and our kids would all be one big happy family. When I go off my meds, I am a lunatic. When I am on the right meds, I am almost normal (well, as normal as I get anyway!)

I would encourage her, or even issue an ultimatum, to see a psychiatrist (an M.D. who can diagnose AND prescribe meds) before ending the marriage. Good luck!


----------



## bandit.45

Cozy, nothing strange happened to you...

That was your gut talking to you, and it led you down the correct path to the truth. Now that you know your gut's voice, you will recognize it and listen to it. 

Your gut was telling you she wasn't sincere, and that she is completely deluded. Seriously, there is something wrong with her. 

The most pathetic affairs are the one sided affairs.


----------



## john117

Ask yourself one question only... What's in it for golden boy? If he's getting physical action - not by the evidence so far - then it's her who is far more into this than he is... 

Look for motives - that may tell you what the course of action needed to lift the fog would be.


----------



## PBear

I'm curious... What are you gathering proof of? And for what purpose? Basically, what are you hoping or expecting to find out that you don't already know? Or is this just a way to avoid taking any actual action?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## synthetic

PBear said:


> I'm curious... What are you gathering proof of? And for what purpose? Basically, what are you hoping or expecting to find out that you don't already know? Or is this just a way to avoid taking any actual action?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's enjoying having the upper hand in the game of deceit. Let's hope it's temporary because it's quite a bizarre way to live with your spouse.


----------



## norajane

PBear said:


> I'm curious... What are you gathering proof of? And for what purpose? Basically, what are you hoping or expecting to find out that you don't already know? Or is this just a way to avoid taking any actual action?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She told him she would stop stalking this guy and cut off her obsession. He checked up on her to see if that was true, and it was not. He also knows now that she is lying to him when she says she isn't doing it anymore. So now he knows this isn't going away with one discussion and some promises.


----------



## Iver

norajane said:


> She told him she would stop stalking this guy and cut off her obsession. He checked up on her to see if that was true, and it was not. He also knows now that she is lying to him when she says she isn't doing it anymore. So now he knows this isn't going away with one discussion and some promises.


Exactly.

Make the doctors appointment for her. Take her there. Make this is a deal breaker.

I believe you are dealing with someone who is mentally ill.


----------



## LongWalk

Cozy,

You can do it. Do not reveal your sources.

Do the 180. Stop your normal pattern of communication. Don't be rude to her. Just end your one sided relationship. 

Filing for divorce may be unnecessary at this point. She will notice that you don't eat meals with her, etc.

re: mental illness
Maybe. Infatuation can be extreme.


----------



## Chaparral

Is this the only very odd behavior she has ever exhibited? 

I don't think, at this point, this has anything to do with adultery.

Your wife is confusing reality with fantasy. She is stalking a young man.

Before you do any kind of confrontation, be sure you have discussed this with a psychaitrist. She may be in serious mental danger and may be in a fragile state. Assuming you are interpreting things correctly, this is a medical,.psychological problem.

What kind of background does she and her family have? How old is she?


----------



## CozyFrost

anchorwatch said:


> CF, I believe you need to talk with a professional counselor or trained clergy, to get insight into her behavior and suggestions as to what your options are.
> 
> Besides agreeing to give up on school boy, what did she actually agree to do, to repair the relationship? MC? See a clergy member? Marriage seminars? Self-help programs? Has she disused any ideas or research any of these resources?


Not feeling as great as yesterday, but that was expected. I'll be seeing a doctor on Thursday because I've reached a point where I can clearly see I'm not going to be able to handle this myself. All arrows point in one direction and I'm going to have to fully accept, how terrifying it may seem, that it's over. Everything I thought about my life and what it would look like has changed. The person I have trusted 100% (over the course of 20 years I've never so much as sneak-peeked at a single personal thing that belonged to her up until a few weeks ago) apparently has no problem lying to me and carrying on her secret crush like nothing. 

What she agreed on was that she had behaved stupid and the whole reading lyrics as his secret way of communicating with her was going to stop. She also emphasized that there was noooo romantic emotions on her part......

.....Well, I checked the computer again and it was clean. Dreaded to check the phone because I really didn't want to find anything, but there it was again. Devastating for my self-esteem and here's why. I can correlate the times she sits and reads the lyrics from his playlists with the times she gets excited and happy. Doing the 180 I keep my distance, but yesterday when I bumped into her she grabbed me and gave me a big affectionate hug and seemed very happy. I got happy until I checked the logs. Schoolboy had 20 minutes earlier uploaded a song and the lyrics was something along the lines that he will be hers if she only wants to and she had been reading them up until the point I walked into the room. Like I said before it goes out to all of his 500 friends, but according to my wife it's aimed at her. Either way it has a profound effect on her and it just f-ing sucks to be me right now.



scatty said:


> Has your wife ever displayed any kind of depressed or manic behavior? Trouble sleeping or *delusions* of any kind?


My bolded: Before this circus there have been times in the social context where her recollection of events have greatly differed from mine. She has proclaimed that she's gotten attention that just plainly didn't happen. On the other hand she also has a persona that invites "taking care of her" feelings and she's very feminine so she's not some kind of misfit.



Iver said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Make the doctors appointment for her. Take her there. Make this is a deal breaker.
> 
> I believe you are dealing with someone who is mentally ill.





Chaparral said:


> Is this the only very odd behavior she has ever exhibited?
> 
> I don't think, at this point, this has anything to do with adultery.
> 
> Your wife is confusing reality with fantasy. She is stalking a young man. ?





LongWalk said:


> re: mental illness
> Maybe. Infatuation can be extreme.





john117 said:


> Ask yourself one question only... What's in it for golden boy? If he's getting physical action - not by the evidence so far - then it's her who is far more into this than he is...
> 
> Look for motives - that may tell you what the course of action needed to lift the fog would be.


Truth or fantasy doesn't really matter any more in the context of my life. For her it's 100% true and trying to convince her otherwise agitates her. However, I can say that for my own sanity I would like to know if he has this feelings or if she's gone completely cuckoo. I still can't understand that after 6 months of posting playlists and numerous chances to meet her (almost every day) he hasn't done one single thing. It's not like they don't know each other. They were in the same workgroup for seven weeks during the spring semester so he knows her, but according to her he's so love sick and hurt that he doesn't dare. Yadayadayada! It's driving me crazy thinking about it.

Getting her to see anyone in the medical field is pointless. She's as 100% sure about his limitless love as she's certain about her own coherent sanity. She also very negative to any therapy so that's out of the question. She's not going to accept any counselling of any kind and frankly I'm wondering if that train hasn't already left the station.



PBear said:


> I'm curious... What are you gathering proof of? And for what purpose? Basically, what are you hoping or expecting to find out that you don't already know? Or is this just a way to avoid taking any actual action?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





synthetic said:


> He's enjoying having the upper hand in the game of deceit. Let's hope it's temporary because it's quite a bizarre way to live with your spouse.


Synthetic is absolutely 100% correct. I have no self-esteem left, no trust and almost no hope, but I do have the satisfaction of being in control of the game of deceit. As I have loved her so madly for such a long time it's very hard to let go, but having her deceit daily take a stab at my heart helps in the process of letting go. I'm waiting for the anger and hate to set in. You don't have to worry about any violence or anything. I've never been in a physical fight in my entire life and I never will. I will neither hurt her physically nor financially (I have all the money) EVER. However, what I want to is to get to the mental stage where I with a cold heart can thank her for the 20 years, provide for her financially and then ask her to leave and never again have any contact. I'm not there yet.



bandit.45 said:


> Cozy, nothing strange happened to you...
> 
> That was your gut talking to you, and it led you down the correct path to the truth. Now that you know your gut's voice, you will recognize it and listen to it.
> 
> Your gut was telling you she wasn't sincere, and that she is completely deluded. Seriously, there is something wrong with her.
> 
> The most pathetic affairs are the one sided affairs.


I will try harder in the coming days to follow my gut rather than my heart. Following my heart has given me nothing but utter grief. 

Now it's just fast track 180. I want it to sting dearly in her soul when she after a couple of months of passion either wakes up, almost a 50 year old woman next to 23 year old golden boy after some college party and realizes that her relationship is lunacy and doomed or wakes up finding out everything was just a delusional fantasy in her head and in her ego-fueled process not only threw away a husband that loved her without limit and always been and always would have been faithful, but that she also managed to betray and forever lose her best friend.


----------



## SamuraiJack

You know...you could end this whole thing right now by reporting his facebook account for publishing copyrighted material...

EZ button...


----------



## betrayed2013

u r frustrating me to no end! You have to file for divorce. This will put the fear of god into her and wake her up.....then i'd send the dude a fb msg telling him everything that is going on....he will block her becuz hes 22...he doesnt want to deal with that crap. If his friends ever found out, they would bug him to no end....do all i said above. You will have ur wife back quicker than u think....make sure u send the 22yr a msg explaining everything and grow a backbone....say it with authority. make him fearful. He will block her i guarantee it.


----------



## LongWalk

Have your read about the 180?

I suspect that when you start to check out on her, she will come to earth.

Don't feel so down. You are not competing with a man but a Greek god.

I would buy some Raymond Carver books. He wrote great short stories about love. _Leave What We Talk About When We Talk About Love (1981)_ on the kitchen table.


----------



## turnera

Are her parents alive? A sister or brother? I'd be telling them, see what they say.


----------



## john117

Add him and her as a friend on FB  if that does not wake both of them up...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Personally...I think its time that you get together ALL of your evidence, and sit down with her and present it in a come to Jesus meeting. I think it will bring her world crashing down to reality.


----------



## PBear

IMHO... Your best chance at fixing things is to serve her up a big ol' b1tchslap of reality. No more talk, no more skulking. But if you need to work yourself up to that, go ahead. Keep in mind that right now, she thinks SHE'S winning the spying war, because she thinks she's able to tell you one thing while continuing to stalk college boy. So she's not going to change her behaviors.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## synthetic

I see CozyFrost's point though.

What is the meaning of "getting his wife back" in this context? So she stops stalking the kid online, but then what? 

You have to understand: A lifetime of trust, love and hope has just been destroyed into pieces, not because she cheated, but because she lies and lies and lies and lies and lies. 

Mental illness? Fine, she's mentally ill. What mental illness does constant lying fall under? Does a husband's "for better or worse" vow include tolerating a deceitful wife? 

Not Cozy's idea of a marriage obviously and frankly I don't blame him.


----------



## PBear

Fixing things can also include finding a nice 30 something who appreciates breakfast in bed, followed by a healthy romp in the sack... Either way, limbo is a crappy way to exist.

C


----------



## tom67

synthetic said:


> I see CozyFrost's point though.
> 
> What is the meaning of "getting his wife back" in this context? So she stops stalking the kid online, but then what?
> 
> You have to understand: A lifetime of trust, love and hope has just been destroyed into pieces, not because she cheated, but because she lies and lies and lies and lies and lies.
> 
> Mental illness? Fine, she's mentally ill. What mental illness does constant lying fall under? Does a husband's "for better or worse" vow include tolerating a deceitful wife?
> 
> Not Cozy's idea of a marriage obviously and frankly I don't blame him.


:iagree::iagree:
Whether it's lust, midlife whatever or mental illness the breaking point is all the lies.
At some point one can only take so much.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This falls into that "does she have the capacity" camp and from my vantage point the answer is no.


----------



## john117

I'm not buying the mental illness part if she can otherwise function. 

If you can stomach it let her run the show for a week or two - if golden boy decides to up the ante then intervene - the thing is that in case you want to help her get over it you have to figure out what she's doing and why. 

If you think you're done obviously pull the nuclear option but if you want to help her - and if she wants to be helped - you need to understand things deeper.

Just a thought...


----------



## CozyFrost

synthetic said:


> I see CozyFrost's point though.
> 
> What is the meaning of "getting his wife back" in this context? So she stops stalking the kid online, but then what?
> 
> You have to understand: A lifetime of trust, love and hope has just been destroyed into pieces, not because she cheated, but because she lies and lies and lies and lies and lies.
> 
> Mental illness? Fine, she's mentally ill. What mental illness does constant lying fall under? Does a husband's "for better or worse" vow include tolerating a deceitful wife?
> 
> Not Cozy's idea of a marriage obviously and frankly I don't blame him.





john117 said:


> I'm not buying the mental illness part if she can otherwise function.
> 
> If you can stomach it let her run the show for a week or two - if golden boy decides to up the ante then intervene - the thing is that in case you want to help her get over it you have to figure out what she's doing and why.
> 
> If you think you're done obviously pull the nuclear option but if you want to help her - and if she wants to be helped - you need to understand things deeper.
> 
> Just a thought...


Synthetic and John117 understands me fully. I'm not scared of throwing all the mobile phone evidence in her face as well. I already did that with all the computer evidence last Friday. But what difference does it make? Nothing at this point because frankly I think she's operating in a mental bubble that I can't penetrate. The only thing that possibly interests me any longer with this kid is if her story is true or not. I want to know if she completely destroyed my heart and threw away everything we had over a fantasy or something real.

What I'm going through right now is exactly what Synthetic understands and what John117 wonder if I can live with for much longer. I'm basically shell shocked over what has happened and even if I magically snapped her out of her delusions by serving her divorce papers how can I ever trust her again? 

Will the target the next time be a more age-appropriate candidate? 

Will I have to turn East German Stasi on her for the rest of my life in order to be able to sleep at night? 

Is she just a selfish lying cheat or is she starting to show signs of something I should seriously worry about?

Is this the end to something I could have sworn was going to last a life-time back when we had our real wedding anniversary in spring?

Today when I looked at her she stopped me and said: "I've never seen you look at me like that before?" "What do you mean?" - I said. "I don't know. It's just a look I've never seen before" - she replied. She's right. I've never felt like this before. I look at her with a mix of love, hate, worry, sadness, defeat and my brain can't handle all the input.

I'm getting professional help tomorrow and I seriously need it. I'm inclined to go with John117's suggestion to let it run its course. Golden boy has posted some songs that say something along the lines that he needs her to talk to him otherwise he's giving up and I almost think that she actually might be going for it. If that happens and everything was true then there was nothing in the world I could have done to prevent it. My wife has been Glenn Close Fatal Attraction minus the rabbit in this guy for over 6 months now. If it's not true she will be devastated and I might get her to talk to a professional. 

Me, then? Like Synthetic said, but what I just haven't accepted yet is that the damage done to me is irreparable.


----------



## Chaparral

Blossom Leigh said:


> This falls into that "does she have the capacity" camp and from my vantage point the answer is no.


Could someone post a picture of a good aluminum foil hat? Op need the plans for one to give his wife. Set up a new email act and email her to meet him, posing as the om, show up and give her the hat.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Omg Chapp... Lol!!!!


----------



## Chaparral

Blossom Leigh said:


> Omg Chapp... Lol!!!!


OMG is right. IF........he is communicateing with her like this they both need hats.

I may be under a false impression but I thought when a person had delusions they were by definition mentally ill. No?

If they are communicating this way they are both mentally ill.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

That visual made me laugh hard, no offense OP.


----------



## LongWalk

Cozy,

We hear your pain and despair. You feel lonely in part because your wife is no longer a rational person upon whom you can depend. Is this MLC that she will pull out of?

Is she clinically ill?

I think it is possible that your wife will come back to you after this burns out at which point you will be forced to consider her qualifications to continue being your spouse. This is an unpleasant prospect but what choice have you?

You remain the most important person in her life. This school heart throb will fade out.

IMO you should position yourself not merely to survive this situation but to pick up the pieces when your wife confronts reality.

You should present her with reality, not by nagging or harping or exposing. You should simply stop interacting with her as usual. Say good morning. Have a nice day. Hello. Do not contribute topics of conversation or any chit chat. However, don't make this hostile or unpleasant. Wear a smile. Do not be available to support her emotionally.

If she were getting her needs met by her infatuation, she might not notice the change. However, you are enabling her to go on with this by being available. Once she detects the change in you, and she already has to some degree, you can be sure she will seek some clarification. You will have her attention. I suspect she will become hysterical in her pursuit of winning you back.

Stay calm.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Chaparral said:


> *Could someone post a picture of a good aluminum foil hat? * Op need the plans for one to give his wife. Set up a new email act and email her to meet him, posing as the om, show up and give her the hat.


Make sure it has a chin strap.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Stop!! LOL!!

As you can see OP we can get really animated.

We have all heard your pain and have stories of our own. All of us feel for you buddy. I thought your Glenn Close Fatal Attraction was pretty accurate.


----------



## turnera

Like I said, have you told her parents or siblings? Maybe they have information about this that you don't.


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## john117

Good thing HR has not come after us for fraternizing with our favorite interns then... In the course of the friendship we have really come to know each other well - two of us geezers and two interns of - epic frown - the opposite gender. Some people are just comfortable around older people or in our case my top software guy and myself are over the top immature (like bad fraternity movie immature) so we match well  Not to mention we provide sage career support and grad school planning support, and an endless supply of cat pictures. 

So, could it be Mrs. OP is over the top immature and golden boy is simply having fun with her? And vice versa? At late 40's if I have solid proof that no hanky panky is happening I would be curious to see why it's happening. I was 22 once... 

It's not unusual for women of that age to compete with younger women - as in, try to dress or act like younger women etc. Heck, my wife still shops at Delia's or H&M . 

If something is going to happen it will happen. Or would have happened. If you (y'all) look into lyrics to get insight then you're in trouble be it 23 or 47. 

She may be trying to recover from something in the past or discover sides of her human psyche she never thought existed. Both are best left alone up to a point as opposed replying with heavy handed threats of divorce. 

Be more concerned about the exit strategy when golden boy takes calculus next year or they "break up". If she's better for it, that's all. If she turns emotional or depressed then IC or MC intervention should be called for.


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## bandit.45

LongWalk said:


> Cozy,
> 
> We hear your pain and despair. You feel lonely in part because your wife is no longer a rational person upon whom you can depend. Is this MLC that she will pull out of?
> 
> Is she clinically ill?
> 
> I think it is possible that your wife will come back to you after this burns out at which point you will be forced to consider her qualifications to continue being your spouse. This is an unpleasant prospect but what choice have you?
> 
> You remain the most important person in her life. This school heart throb will fade out.
> 
> IMO you should position yourself not merely to survive this situation but to pick up the pieces when your wife confronts reality.
> 
> You should present her with reality, not by nagging or harping or exposing. You should simply stop interacting with her as usual. Say good morning. Have a nice day. Hello. Do not contribute topics of conversation or any chit chat. However, don't make this hostile or unpleasant. Wear a smile. Do not be available to support her emotionally.
> 
> If she were getting her needs met by her infatuation, she might not notice the change. However, you are enabling her to go on with this by being available. Once she detects the change in you, and she already has to some degree, you can be sure she will seek some clarification. You will have her attention. I suspect she will become hysterical in her pursuit of winning you back.
> 
> Stay calm.


Dumbest post you've ever written. I'm surprised at you.


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## bandit.45

She's getting ready to get physical with this kid. He's going to tear her up.

Yeah....just sit it out and wait for it to run its course. 

Sheesh.....


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## john117

bandit.45 said:


> She's getting ready to get physical with this kid. He's going to tear her up.
> 
> Yeah....just sit it out and wait for it to run its course.
> 
> Sheesh.....



Unless he has a drone following her to class and back then having more talks is not going to prevent much. Ask any teenager 

You can prevent her from seeing golden boy but under the right circumstances send her right into his arms all the same.


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## bandit.45

john117 said:


> Unless he has a drone following her to class and back then having more talks is not going to prevent much. Ask any teenager
> 
> You can prevent her from seeing golden boy but under the right circumstances send her right into his arms all the same.


I say divorce her and throw her ass out now. Then she can bang boy toy to her hearts content.


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## john117

Agreed - but what happens if it's a 47 year old lady in help of a reality check as opposed to a divorce decree?


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## Nucking Futs

john117 said:


> Agreed - but what happens if it's a 47 year old lady in help of a reality check as opposed to a divorce decree?


If the service of the divorce isn't enough reality check then she likely needs the decree.


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## john117

Again, agreed. But look at the decision tree here.

Do nothing and if golden boy scores it's per. If he files it's over. If it runs it's course and nothing happens he has a chance. Go with guns blazing and it's over.

How did the song go... If you love something set it free etc?


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## bandit.45

Let's not waste sending in fire fighters to protect the town from the forest fire. Let's just let the fire run its course and see what happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

If you go nuclear and start filing etc you have a small chance of waking her up. Say 20%. You also have a good chance for an averse response, say 20%. And 60% chance of nuking the marriage by manifesting your mistrust in an extreme way.

If you do nothing the likelihood of it going physical is quite small, as it would have happened by now and every day it does not happen reduce the chances even more. So when it runs its course she is likely to be hurt and that will get her back to reality. I'm guessing 20% to go physical and 80% it does not, then if it does not a very good chance of getting out of the fog, say 70%. The last two give a 56% chance of success vs 20% with nuke.

Note that the probabilities above are made up, OP will have to work his numbers into the picture since he knows her better than we do...

What says you, OP?


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## LongWalk

The likelihood that this infatuation is reciprocated is small.


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## Thor

If she's a good looking lady, the young man may decide getting laid is better than not. This presumes he has any clue what is going on. I expect he has some idea she is interested in him, but to what extent?

If this is a crush, she has crossed the line in the marriage big time. This would be no different than a reciprocated EA in terms of killing it. Expose, play hardball with NC, require her to drop the class and perhaps drop school. Total transparency in all modes of communication. Hidden surveillance (keylogger, gps, VAR, etc) to verify NC.

If she is actually mentally ill, her husband owes her support in getting professional help. If she comes back to sanity on meds, good. The marriage could be saved. But if she is unable or unwilling to participate effectively in whatever medical or psychiatric treatments are needed, the marriage is over just as if she were an unwilling alcoholic.

My personal take on this is that she is in a serious crush but is not diagnosable as mentally ill.

Inaction is the only approach guaranteed to fail.


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## hehasmyheart

Do you think there were things lacking in the marriage?

How was the affection and intimacy before all this? Has there been a change since then?

I think she sounds obsessed with him. Maybe it represents a need to feel young again due to the MLC.

Any new developments today?


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## synthetic

hehasmyheart said:


> Do you think there were things lacking in the marriage?
> 
> How was the affection and intimacy before all this? Has there been a change since then?
> 
> I think she sounds obsessed with him. Maybe it represents a need to feel young again due to the MLC.


It doesn't matter. She's dishonest (even after getting caught). A big revelation and also a serious deal-breaker.

You just can't and shouldn't trust people that lie easily. Cozy's entire marriage is now under a big question mark. When and where else did she lie about things?


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## convert

normally i would say confront the OM but in this case I do not know if the OM (golden boy) even knows he is an OM.

It sure would not take much for golden boy to move into an OM spot here.

I would at least watch for any sign that golden boy may actually talk or proposition OP's wife, which would be hard to do because it would be in class or on campus not through her phone.
a pen VAR maybe.

Would confronting OM do any good at this stage? It might make things worse?

in other words confronting OM about this would clue him into the fact that she (op's wife) has the hots for him and that maybe all he needs to go to the next step, because at this stage, he in fact may not know.

This is so f'ed up


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## Iver

You seem to have dismissed the idea of getting medical help for your wife. 

I may be swimming against the tide here but this whole situation doesn't strike me as an affair especially considering the OM right now has no idea about it. Let me repeat that. The "OM" has no idea about this. 

Your wife is acting in a bizarre and unhealthy way. 

You said she wanted to stay married. Make a visit to a GP a condition of that - she sees a doctor (and you go with her of course)
and gets a full examination. If she refuses then go ahead and file for divorce.

You owe her that much at the very least.


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## john117

A GP will prescribe some Xanax or Zoloft and that's all. This needs some serious behavioral intervention by someone with an understanding of such behaviors. And at that age it's pretty hard... 

I envision denial then cry-fest then the reality of why it's happening to come out. Eventually.

Glad I'm not the only one thinking about golden boy as "OM"...


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## Iver

I agree she needs a pyschiatrist but a least blood work and an examination by a M.D. would hopefully rule out a brain tumor or other physical issues.

The 22 year old "OM" is communicating to her via facebook songs??? 

Good Lord. This woman really needs help.


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## CozyFrost

I'm still here and will go through every single reply by tonight and respond by tomorrow. Even though I said it before and know that I thank too much I still want to thank you all for all the input and care. It really is the only thing I have right now that keeps me sane. 

I'm over at my parents house and just resting a little. Needed to get away for a few hours.


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## norajane

CozyFrost said:


> I'm still here and will go through every single reply by tonight and respond by tomorrow. Even though I said it before and know that I thank too much I still want to thank you all for all the input and care. It really is the only thing I have right now that keeps me sane.
> 
> I'm over at my parents house and just resting a little. Needed to get away for a few hours.


Have you considered talking with your parents about this so they know what's going on with you, and can offer some real-life support when you need it? Or a friend?


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## PBear

CF, do what you need to do to get through this. You've been dealt a crappy hand, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I'm just telling you what I'd tell any buddy of mine to do, if he was telling me this story over a beer. 

Good luck, man. And it's good you've got family close. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CozyFrost

Crazy world has just turned into wierdo world and she's suddenly around me all the time talking to me in a more rational way, which makes it hard for me to get time to write to my friends. Yes, that's how I see you all. Therefore, this text is all first draft quality.

Soon to be three days ago I stopped checking her computer/mobile activity because it was just killing my heart. Then about two days ago she looked completely sad and broken in the morning so I asked her what was wrong. She started talking about her problems fitting in and how she had so many regrets that were amplified by being around these kids and so on. I followed all of your advice and kept my cool even stealing the Greek god line saying that it was fine if she wanted to go back to college life, however, I wouldn't join her. I also said that I wasn't going to take any part any longer inadvertently competing with some college kid: "I can't compete with a dream. No one can and I certainly don't want to. I suggest you follow your dream and take ***** and move away so the two of you can live your dream" - is kind of what I said. 

Well, the last 24 hours she's been completely rational and I kind of recognize her again. I went to the computer/mobile logs and nothing. Almost three days ago she just stopped completely. From spending hours a day to absolutely nothing. It feels weird to say the least and I can't figure out this sudden dramatic change. I should be happy about all this, but I'm not. The change is incredibly sudden, distinct and largely without any cause. I haven't threatened with anything. I've just kept to myself and mostly ignored her out of pure self-preservation. I guess I have to take a wait and see approach to all of this because something is not right.

I know she hasn't secretly met golden boy because she hasn't had the time. There's no "missing" time in her schedule and her gps coordinates don't lie. She hasn't Facebook chatted, called or texted him either. Something has happened incredibly sudden and now this makes me suspicious.


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## PBear

Maybe she saw him with a girl or something. 

C


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## Tobyboy

Does she still see him at school? If yes, then I bet she got him alone and poured her heart out to him and got rejected!!!! Is his facebook still visible in her feed?


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## john117

47+ year old people - most of them  - eventually have a few moments of self realization... Once in a while.

If she falls into a spiral then she was "dumped"... If she comes out of it like "what the freak was that" then her self realization kicked in.


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## anchorwatch

An awakening? 

Eyes wide open, CF. 

Whatever it is, what you have learned here has forever changed you. Now you know it can be better.

Best


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## LongWalk

CozyFrost said:


> Crazy world has just turned into wierdo world and she's suddenly around me all the time talking to me in a more rational way, which makes it hard for me to get time to write to my friends. Yes, that's how I see you all. Therefore, this text is all first draft quality.
> 
> *She is trying to connect to you. Good. Listen to her. Listen. Look her in the eye. Thanks for the friendship. We a rooting for you.*
> 
> Soon to be three days ago I stopped checking her computer/mobile activity because it was just killing my heart. Then about two days ago she looked completely sad and broken in the morning so I asked her what was wrong. She started talking about her problems fitting in and how she had so many regrets that were amplified by being around these kids and so on. I followed all of your advice and kept my cool even stealing the Greek god line saying that it was fine if she wanted to go back to college life, however, I wouldn't join her. I also said that I wasn't going to take any part any longer inadvertently competing with some college kid: "I can't compete with a dream. No one can and I certainly don't want to. I suggest you follow your dream and take ***** and move away so the two of you can live your dream" - is kind of what I said.
> 
> *Good.*
> 
> Well, the last 24 hours she's been completely rational and I kind of recognize her again. I went to the computer/mobile logs and nothing. Almost three days ago she just stopped completely. From spending hours a day to absolutely nothing. It feels weird to say the least and I can't figure out this sudden dramatic change. I should be happy about all this, but I'm not. The change is incredibly sudden, distinct and largely without any cause. I haven't threatened with anything. I've just kept to myself and mostly ignored her out of pure self-preservation. I guess I have to take a wait and see approach to all of this because something is not right.
> 
> I know she hasn't secretly met golden boy because she hasn't had the time. There's no "missing" time in her schedule and her gps coordinates don't lie. She hasn't Facebook chatted, called or texted him either. Something has happened incredibly sudden and now this makes me suspicious.
> 
> *Whatever happened is not so important. Your wife is no longer high on the fantasy of this boy. Maybe you can date your wife. She is likely depressed by what has happened.*


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## happy as a clam

Cozy... how are things going? Did you find out why she had a sudden shift in behavior?

Hope you're ok


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## thummper

Just found this thread. Curious whether there have been any further developments.  Has ww come down from the stratosphere, seen through the fog, and resumed a normal life? Any chance that she's still fantasizing about her golden boy? Is Cozyfrost feeling more confident that he now has his wife back? I hope he posts an update and lets us know how things are going.


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