# Help, need impartial advice about lying



## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

Hello, I appreciate any impartial advice in advance. I have been happily married for 5 years and my husband just flat out lied to me. This is not a cheating lie, but in my mind once a liar always a liar and while I am fuming, I am looking for advice as to whether I should really be this fuming. Here is the simple take: husband has business meeting, after meeting calls home to see if I want to meet he and a close mutual friend for a 1 drink, I decline and he says, ok if you are not coming out then I will only stay out for 1 drink. 3.5 hours later he returns home. This is not what I am mad about, I grew up w/ a father and know that when men say 1 drink that means several. While out, I see from our close mutual friend that he "checks in" via an online source at a very nice restaurant that is special to my husband, when my husband arrives home over an hour later I ask him where he has been. He says at the bar that they always go to, and when I specifically ask him if he went to the restaurant I know our friend was at he says no. When I ask again Did you go to (the specific name of the restaurant), he again says no. When I get mad and call him a liar, he says that he knew I would be upset because that is my favorite restaurant and special place and he knew he would be upset if he went there with our (male) close friend and did not invite me. I am very mad because my husband found it so easy to lie to me, and also as I said to him, if he was doing something that he knew would upset me then why do it at all? Keep in mind, I do not fear cheating in this matter, simply lying. But do know that if this lie was so easy to him now, who knows what in the future. I feel I will never be able to trust him again as to where he says he is in the future. Am I justified in being mad, and even contemplating separating for awhile or is he right in saying it was just a little lie to not get me mad. Regardless, i am mad - I guess I am looking for advice as to how far my disappointment and anger should go? Thanks in advance.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

If he is lying to avoid conflict, then you have a different problem than you think you do. 

I'd strongly urge you to consider marriage counseling--this is a great opportunity to fix something that is fixable but could otherwise really destroy your marriage.

People lie to avoid conflict (generally) for 1 of 2 reasons: They are the "conflict avoidant" types, OR their partner's reaction is over-the-top. It's hard to tell, from the outside, which is the "reason" for the lying (which is still wrong, by the way). 

If you treat him horribly when he tells you something that makes you mad (and you have every right to be mad, but not to act like a witch about it), then he will avoid conflict. But a whole lot of people are just unwilling to face even relatively minor conflict (like having a partner get ticked off a bit) IF they can avoid it. This is a personality trait that can be changed and should be, b/c marriages don't work well if one or both people are conflict avoidant. 

I would not separate for this, nor assume that "once a liar, always a liar." It's much more complicated than that, so exploring the issue is really important. Good luck.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

I think you are within your rights to be mad about the lying. But how mad is up to you. Contemplating separation? That's pretty mad. 

I think, as a first offense, I'd be mad and I'd make sure he understands that my being disappointed is the least of the evils....as opposed to him lying to me. I think people make mistakes and hopefully LEARN from them. Then I'd make him take me to that favorite restaurant. LET him make amends.


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## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

Thank you! I agree counseling is in need, we have researched our behaviors in the past and have been pinned as the "volatile" relationship, I guess meaning that we get mad and/or frustrated with each other, and then quickly resolve through true conversation the issue and then move on. What is the difference with this one is I am hurt by such a flat out lie . I would rather not be mad and dealing with this conflict, but also really want to be respected with genuine honesty and love. Thanks again, your thoughts have been very needed and appreciated.


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## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

Yes, I tried to focus on showing my disappointment rather than my anger, as I do not think anything is accomplished with a bunch of yelling.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Liars are the lowest of low. If you have the ability to lie then there is no limit to what you are capable of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

I absolutely agree with everyone else that while this isn't something that should immediately be cause for separation, it is definitely something that should be explored further and worked on, because trust is something that has to be present in a marriage for it to work. Lying, regardless of the cause, undermines that and makes it difficult to remain with a spouse who doesn't respect you enough to be honest with you. 

I am going through something similar with my husband now, who, after reading Sisters359's response, appears to be conflict-avoidant. Whatever the cause, he is a liar. Now, I know there have been times in the past where my reaction probably added to the dynamic (aka he thought I would blow up if he told the truth), but he has gotten to the point where he lies about nearly everything...and I mean nearly everything. He will lie and say he took the trash out - even though I can see that it's still sitting there; he will lie and say that he didn't take money out of the bank, but the statement says otherwise. He lies when it shouldn't matter, when the truth would never come close to upsetting me, lies in the face of hard evidence -- like bank statements or phone records. It's just effortless now, the lies fly out of his mouth. 

One of the things our marriage counselor has told both of us is that given all of the other problems we are currently dealing with, this is the biggest one, and that if he can't get it under control she would recommend divorce, because lying to your spouse is just so destructive. 

I don't know how it gets fixed, though. My husband swore he understand how destructive it was and promised that he would stop lying. I took some advice from this site of trust but verify, and put a keylogger on our home computer. Through this, I found out he made a purchase that he didn't tell me about -- the agreement is anything over $100 has to be discussed because of his money issues. When I got the logs, I asked him about it and he, of course, lied. When I printed off the logs and the receipt page from his e-mail and confronted him with them, he continued to lie. This went on and on, until he finally admitted it. 

Like you, I'm not upset about the substance of the lie itself -- the purchase in my case; the location in yours -- but the fact that he lies about it. It seems as though once they start, it just gets worse. Hopefully since you confronted your husband about it, he has learned his lesson, but I would still stress how important it is that you two find a way to work through this together before the little white lies become lies about something much bigger.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Liars are the lowest of low. If you have the ability to lie then there is no limit to what you are capable of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmm, guess this person never told a lie ever in life. Lets see them reply with a lie now.

As for the OP, if your man has to lie to you about going to a restaurant then he obviously knows what your response would be had he been honest, which from how you sound here, justified. So the question is, why would you get mad if he went there with his buddy to have drinks? What issues do you have that would make something so trivial, insignificant and inconsequential, drive you mad? A drink here is the same as a drink there, you didn't want to go anyway. I just don't get why you're upset, when you force people to lie to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

hi mikeydread, I dont think I forced anyone to lie to me, I knew he was out and he couldn't be honest about where he was. The matter is not what restaurant he was at - i don't care if he was at McDonald's. If I knew he was at McDonalds and asked him if he was at McDonald and he said No, then he lied. My question is why lie at all and am I justified in being so mad? Obviously I know your take on things so I would welcome any others.


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## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

@nomoretogive, oh my - I am sorry, unfortunately when looking at your situation mine seems so trivial, good luck to you


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

brookeriver said:


> hi mikeydread, I dont think I forced anyone to lie to me, I knew he was out and he couldn't be honest about where he was. The matter is not what restaurant he was at - i don't care if he was at McDonald's. If I knew he was at McDonalds and asked him if he was at McDonald and he said No, then he lied. My question is why lie at all and am I justified in being so mad? Obviously I know your take on things so I would welcome any others.


I wasn't being literal when I said you "made" him lie to you. But someone knowing your reaction to something, especially if it is usually irrational, will not want to tell you the truth. And just a heads up, a lot of times guys make plans to go one place, then as the wind blows our minds change, so we go with it. Maybe that's what happened. But your husband knowing you liked this place, he probably felt guilty going without you, but knowing you may blow up about it, he lied.
Stuff like that takes time to get over, I used to be like your husband. These days however, if my wife gets mad, she'll live, and she'll get over it. Truth prevails everytime!!!!


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Ok, I am *very* anal about lying - big lies, small lies, white lies, purple lies - it doesn't matter to me, an untruth/deception is an indication of so much more to me, so I understand where you are coming from. There are so many lying statistics that boarder on saying lying is "normal". I think people who lack that much respect for themselves and for others are normal. No matter what the reason, lying is a selfish act meant to protect oneself from the consequences, even small consequences of the truth. In my mind, (and I admit, it can be very black and white), nothing good can be accomplished with being deceptive. (However rewarding the behavior is for the short term).

That being said, sometimes you just have to see it as someone else's problem when they are being cowardly. Your problem is how you handle it. Diminishing trust and learning to forgive are big issues for me, and maybe they are for you too.

So with all that said, people are allowed to make mistakes, as long as they learn from them. 

Ugh I feel heated just talking about this! LoL!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks, what helped you change? I consider myself pretty fair, and when I do get mad I get over it. But this one just plain hurts, and its like a big ink blotch just smeared all over my marriage.


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## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

Thank you YinPrincess, I think that is my problem too is that I just can't understand lying no matter how big or small, it just helps nothing in the long run. If I just shrug it off and go on as normal then I still feel very disrespected, but I guess that is better than having so much hostility around. One trivial lie just changed everything...ugghh


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## CantBeJustMe (Jan 27, 2012)

Okay I feel I have to chime in here. I’ve been married 16+ years, and sure we have issues we need to work on, but the lying thing has always bugged me.

The problem is this, and you can of course agree or not, many people lie, especially in relationships to avoid conflict (as someone already mentioned). This behavior usually is caused my things most people don’t think to address. Why does he think he has to lie about something like this?

He called and asked if you wanted to come out and have a drink right?

Why were you checking the location of the close friend’s phone? 

I was in a relationship like this. Not my wife, but an ex-girlfriend. Early in our relationship we had this long talk about “total honesty” in a relationship. She went on and on about it. I figured she was burned by someone in a prior relationship, and it turns out I was right. So I agreed to “total honesty”.

The thing about “total honesty” it simply won’t work in a relationship unless both people are extremely open to criticism and don’t immediately feel like they are being attacked. Unfortunately, in my experience, many of the people who go on a tirade about lying, they have also been burned by someone in a relationship by being lied to. In reality it’s not the lying they are so upset about, it’s the fact they believed those lies so willingly.

So the ex? I respected her wishes. Total honesty. Guess what? She would fly off the handle routinely. Whenever I would be upfront about something, no matter how trivial, she would immediately launch an attack. Usually something that had happened in the past and how she “Hadn’t said anything, because she didn’t want to hurt my feelings.” Isn’t that a double-standard? Is omission a lie?

There is a difference between lying to hide behavior and actions from someone versus lying to keep the other person from getting upset. So I think the questions you need to ask yourself are these:

Why did you check the location of where the friend was? Where you expecting your husband to lie to you? 
Have you ever lied to your husband, or omitted telling him something to spare his feelings? Omitting something is the same thing as lying.

Who normally “ends” the arguments you and your husband have? Is he the peacemaker? This can be a hard question to answer honestly, but it might give you more insight into what your husband is thinking. Maybe more insight than you really want.


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## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

CantBeJustMe said:


> Okay I feel I have to chime in here. I’ve been married 16+ years, and sure we have issues we need to work on, but the lying thing has always bugged me.
> 
> The problem is this, and you can of course agree or not, many people lie, especially in relationships to avoid conflict (as someone already mentioned). This behavior usually is caused my things most people don’t think to address. Why does he think he has to lie about something like this?
> 
> ...


Hi cantbejustme, thank you, I really value your opinion.

One thing is for certain, I do not feel like checking up on my husbands or friends whereabouts, these darn smart phones actually pop up the location onto my phone without me even checking (foursquare app.) Actually I should rephrase that - I never felt the need to check..until now. I have a bad feeling I am going to be much more curious now and I hate it.

We are one of those "total honesty" relationships or at least I thought we were, and yes because of being lied and cheated to in past relationships. We are 100% adamant if that if you ever cheat, it is over. Electronically, physically, you name it - no way, done, totally over. And I thought that was the way we were about lying too. We are (were) so honest with each other that it is usually admired by people on the outside, I know, sounds ridiculous now.

During arguments, as I mentioned above we have been labeled as volatile, meaning we strongly discuss but do not belabor the point and get over an argument rather quickly. In these cases, it actually is both of us - pretty 50/50 across the board as far as who ends the argument. I would love to end this one right now, but just can't. Because I guess my underlying question is at what point is it not considered a little lie? If lying to avoid conflict is considered excusable due to a subsequent fight, at what point does it become inexcusable? I feel like I just took a big slap to the face, because no matter how volatile we have been with each other in the past, we have always been honest. Why did that just change?


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## CantBeJustMe (Jan 27, 2012)

brookeriver said:


> Hi cantbejustme, thank you, I really value your opinion.


Don’t go overboard. I’m just now finally realizing all the stuff I’ve been doing wrong over a 16 year marriage…and I don’t mean affection or infidelity etc. Just SIMPLE things that can turn important after a long while.



> One thing is for certain, I do not feel like checking up on my husbands or friends whereabouts, these darn smart phones actually pop up the location onto my phone without me even checking (foursquare app.) Actually I should rephrase that - I never felt the need to check..until now. I have a bad feeling I am going to be much more curious now and I hate it.


Simple, uninstall the application. Sounds silly, do it. There are other issues with that particular app, and other apps that announce your location, that I won’t go into. But being a IT and security person I can tell you it’s a novelty, and the bad things that can be done with that information would make you want to step on your smart phone and start using paper cups and string.



> We are one of those "total honesty" relationships or at least I thought we were, and yes because of being lied and cheated to in past relationships. We are 100% adamant if that if you ever cheat, it is over. Electronically, physically, you name it - no way, done, totally over. And I thought that was the way we were about lying too. We are (were) so honest with each other that it is usually admired by people on the outside, I know, sounds ridiculous now.


There’s nothing wrong with that. Just understand that both of you need to have the same definition of “total” honesty. And yes I’m serious.



> During arguments, as I mentioned above we have been labeled as volatile, meaning we strongly discuss but do not belabor the point and get over an argument rather quickly. In these cases, it actually is both of us - pretty 50/50 across the board as far as who ends the argument. I would love to end this one right now, but just can't. Because I guess my underlying question is at what point is it not considered a little lie? If lying to avoid conflict is considered excusable due to a subsequent fight, at what point does it become inexcusable? I feel like I just took a big slap to the face, because no matter how volatile we have been with each other in the past, we have always been honest. Why did that just change?


Me personally? I would approach your husband and tell him. Don’t QUESTION, don’t ACCUSE just say: (something along these lines)

“I don’t want to make this a bigger deal than it is. But when you lied to me about where you were, it just naturally makes me wonder if you have lied about anything else. I’m not saying you have or even that I think you have. I just naturally have thought about it.

If you lied to keep from hurting my feelings, I appreciate the thought, but you did ask me to go out, so telling me you went there wouldn’t have been a big deal.”

After that, move on. Seriously. If this is the ONLY thing that your husband has ever done to make your doubt him, you’re in pretty good shape.

Hell he called and ASKED you to come out with him before he went. That right there should be noted, not taken for granted.


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## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

Thank you cantjustbeme, you really truly just helped me a lot. I did say pretty much your exact sentiments above and also added, "If you thought I was going to be hurt or upset by something, then why do it at all?" Hopefully we can both learn from this, and move on, and I won't need to go seeking impartial advice too much more often. Thanks again.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

I don't know if this bring anything new to the table, but one can always share.

As a child, I was a liar. It wasn't just a child telling stories and not knowing the difference (I did that too at a younger age). An uncontrolled out-of-habit liar, I would say "yes, I saw that movie", "sure I know who that is" or "no, I never tasted broccoli" — when none of that was true — just because I thought that was what people EXPECTED of me. I was an insecure child and due to some losses and probably something in our family dynamic, I grew up to think that other people didn't like the _real_ me and so I was trying to appear to be someone they would like.

This behavior was very persistent but I came over it. Mostly through finding my passions in life and opening myself up to new people, I found that they liked me like I was. I built confidence, self-esteem and self-love. 

In my marriage, I have only done this in the very beginning of my relationship with my husband. I was insecure, I wanted him to like me, I wanted acceptance. I have admitted to those lies later. I now speak the truth, but I still have trouble. My husband is a very verbal type and that sometimes comes off to me as an attack. This has in the past caused me to be afraid of conflict with him. It has discouraged me from sharing things with him. 

The key to over come this has been and still is both for me, to have the courage and faith to express my wants, needs and thoughts openly — despite what the outcome might be — and for him, to accept what I am saying and show appreciation that I am learning to express my feelings.

There might be a reason why he suddenly felt afraid to tell you this. The reason might be in the way you have reacted in the past, but it might very well not be. It might also be something he has inherited from a past relationship, where he has felt he needs to bear secrets to keep peace or some past insecurity. 

Of course you are angry that he lied. That is justified. But divorcing him for this seems over the top (even though I understand that now better, having heard that you had been hurt in past relationships). Feel you anger, let it pass — and sit down to hear him out. What did he feel that made him tell the lie, what was he afraid of? Is it reasonable to be afraid of that in your relationship? Does he feel like he generally gets things that he wants in your relationship or did he lie because he thought you would say no — and he would've felt obligated to comply (and afterwards resentful)? If there's nothing in your relationship to make him feel uncomfortable telling you things, what might there be in his past that makes him afraid of saying the truth? 

I don't think anyone lies because they think it's fun. People lie to avoid something inconvenient or uncomfortable. I personally think that even out-of-habit liars have started that way. The fear might be all in their heads, and all they need to get over it is to try to overcome it by actually telling the truth in an uncomfortable situation a couple of times — realize it's actually much better than lying — and progress can begin. Or the issue is more deeply rooted and they might be in need of some heavy duty counseling. 

I know your angry at him. You don't have to dump him, though. You can help him to figure out what he needs (to do) in order to stop lying in the future. Explore the issues together.

Just a thought.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> Ok, I am *very* anal about lying - big lies, small lies, white lies, purple lies - it doesn't matter to me, an untruth/deception is an indication of so much more to me, so I understand where you are coming from. There are so many lying statistics that boarder on saying lying is "normal". I think people who lack that much respect for themselves and for others are normal. No matter what the reason, lying is a selfish act meant to protect oneself from the consequences, even small consequences of the truth. In my mind, (and I admit, it can be very black and white), nothing good can be accomplished with being deceptive. (However rewarding the behavior is for the short term).
> 
> That being said, sometimes you just have to see it as someone else's problem when they are being cowardly. Your problem is how you handle it. Diminishing trust and learning to forgive are big issues for me, and maybe they are for you too.
> 
> ...



So that being said, you've never, eveeeeeerrrrrr told a lie, not once? hmmm. Anyhow, someone should risk being yelled at and ABUSED just to feed your need for the truth that you cannot obviously handle anyway? Start with you and your offputting attitude first, then judge someone for lying.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

brookeriver said:


> Thank you cantjustbeme, you really truly just helped me a lot. I did say pretty much your exact sentiments above and also added, *"If you thought I was going to be hurt or upset by something, then why do it at all?" *Hopefully we can both learn from this, and move on, and I won't need to go seeking impartial advice too much more often. Thanks again.


Just a question on this statement. Why would you get upset that he went to a particular place without telling you, when he openly asked you to come with? Like I said earlier, people make plans to go places and end up somewhere totally different, on a whim. I just can't see why I am the only one finding it odd that this change in his plans would upset you? 
You are right however, he shouldnot have lied, but if he didn't would he then have to deal with a tirade for that too? If something as insignificant as a change in plans can hurt your feelings, like I said earlier, there are deeper issues here. Not judging, just saying.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> Just a question on this statement. Why would you get upset that he went to a particular place without telling you, when he openly asked you to come with? Like I said earlier, people make plans to go places and end up somewhere totally different, on a whim. I just can't see why I am the only one finding it odd that this change in his plans would upset you?
> You are right however, he shouldnot have lied, but if he didn't would he then have to deal with a tirade for that too? If something as insignificant as a change in plans can hurt your feelings, like I said earlier, there are deeper issues here. Not judging, just saying.


I would assume that if she were informed of the change in plans she too may have changed her mind and perhaps would have liked to join them after all? The option would have been nice, and it would have at least been a simple courtesy to let her know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> So that being said, you've never, eveeeeeerrrrrr told a lie, not once? hmmm. Anyhow, someone should risk being yelled at and ABUSED just to feed your need for the truth that you cannot obviously handle anyway? Start with you and your offputting attitude first, then judge someone for lying.


Having been a liar in the past, and having had the fear of the truth being known govern my own integrity, (and having LEARNED from my mistakes), I cannot honestly see how one justifies deception because of another's inability to handle the truth. That is simply a cop-out in my book.

Personally, I'd receive the upsetting truth much better than the discovery of a lie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> I would assume that if she were informed of the change in plans she too may have changed her mind and perhaps would have liked to join them after all? The option would have been nice, and it would have at least been a simple courtesy to let her know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is that how things work in women's minds? If I ask you once if you want to come and hang out, and you say no, why on earth do you think i'm going to ask AGAIN? Where we're hanging out shouldn't be an issue, if you're going to be with me, then you're going to be with me. Not all these conditions. If you say to me, hey babe, i'm going to the store X, wanna come? And I say no. if you choose to go to store Y, guess what, still won't wanna go. But maybe that's the simple man in me talking.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> Having been a liar in the past, and having had the fear of the truth being known govern my own integrity, (and having LEARNED from my mistakes), I cannot honestly see how one justifies deception because of another's inability to handle the truth. That is simply a cop-out in my book.
> 
> Personally, I'd receive the upsetting truth much better than the discovery of a lie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You've obviously never been on the other side of a verbally abusive relationship. Unless you were the abuser. Then I understand your position


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I've been on both sides, and I'm still working through it, to be honest. I had an ex abuse me all ways possible, and I guess I learned it from him. I can admit my faults and say honestly that I am unlearning some of the bad habits I acquired.

Back to the op - Why is it so outrageous that she may have changed her mind, just as her husband changed location?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

Obviously, due to my own personal circumstances, this thread is one that I'm following closely, just to get some new perspective. 

Like, YinPrincess, I have an issue with lying -- that has probably been amplified given my circumstances with my husband. I make the blanket statement all the time, "I hate liars." Having read this thread, though, I'm wondering, "What does that mean, exactly?" and find myself needing to really define it in my head. Like Mikeydread has pointed out, we're ALL guilty -- even myself, and probably YinPricess if she was honest  -- of telling a lie, whether blatantly or by omission -- at some point during the course of our lives. So then are we all liars, albeit on a spectrum? Or do people become "liars" once some line is crossed, once it's pervasive, et cetera? 

And that question was articulated best by the OP when she said:



brookeriver said:


> Because I guess my underlying question is at what point is it not considered a little lie? If lying to avoid conflict is considered excusable due to a subsequent fight, at what point does it become inexcusable?


Where is the line drawn? Because often what I considered lying -- aka "Yes, I took the trash out" which leads me to believe that I don't have to worry about doing it -- isn't a lie to him. He calls it "forgetting." Or even the instance of the purchase. In my mind, he clearly lied about it; he says he lied to avoid an argument...even though the purchase was for work, and we have a rule in our house, given that I'm self-employed and often make business purchases, that work items are never going to be an issue; you need it to work, no argument or justification needed; just let me know how you paid for it so I can keep track of our money. So in that instance, he already knew there wasn't going to be an issue, there wasn't going to be an argument, but lied anyway. So then is he lying when he says that he lied to avoid an argument? My mind is spinning 

I suspect the OP is wondering the same thing, because she has made it clear that where her husband went wasn't the issue; it was the fact that he was dishonest about where he DID go. She knew he was going out, he had invited her, she declined. Obviously, his going out was not an issue AT ALL. The lie, however, was/is. 

I know that myself, I have become hyper-honest in response to my husband's chronic lying. There was a point in time where I was one of "those" girls that Mikeydread talks about -- I would ask for honesty but couldn't handle it when I got it. I owned that issue, fixed it, and can honestly say that I've overcome that and have gotten to the point where I both value honesty and can handle it, regardless of what the truth is. Maybe I'm wrong for expecting the same from others. 

The OP said she asked her husband, *"If you thought I was going to be hurt or upset by something, then why do it at all?"*

Then mikey's follow-up question was: *Why would you get upset that he went to a particular place without telling you, when he openly asked you to come with?*

Maybe it's semantics to most, but because this plays out in my house all the time, I'm curious if I'm the only one who sees it this way. The OP has made it clear that she was not at all upset about her husband's going out, and that even his going to that particular place would not have been an issue at all had he been honest about it and not lied. He did ask her to go out, but he didn't ask her about that specific place, once the plans changed, which may have changed her opinion on going out at all. 

Her husband obviously suspected that his going to that particular place would be an issue, went anyway, and then lied about it. I understand that plans change, but couldn't her husband have called and/or texted her at that point and said, "I know you didn't want to go to X place, but plans have changed and we're going to your favorite place now. I know you love it there, so I wanted to check to see if you'd reconsider and meet us there"? That would have avoided the need for lying at all....just by being respectful from the beginning.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> I've been on both sides, and I'm still working through it, to be honest. I had an ex abuse me all ways possible, and I guess I learned it from him. I can admit my faults and say honestly that I am unlearning some of the bad habits I acquired.
> 
> Back to the op - Why is it so outrageous that she may have changed her mind, just as her husband changed location?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well firstly, I apologize if I seemed insensitive to your abuse, but I had no idea. To me that is not acceptable. Especially for a man to do to a woman. Although bad for both, I think it's worse when a guy does it. 
Acknowledging that you have an issue and working on it is the right first step. 
As I say in a lot of my posts, I tend to play devil's advocate, and I like objectivity. I like hearing, seeing and understanding both sides of an argument. And yes, lying is just stupid, especially as adults. But sometimes, the juice of truth is not always worth the squeeze of retaliation.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

nomoretogive said:


> Like Mikeydread has pointed out, we're ALL guilty -- even myself, and probably YinPricess if she was honest


Yup, I've lied. I lied everyday for years about being beaten black and blue, about being raped, about using drugs - I lied to my friends, family, cops, judges - you name it. I will never say I've never lied, but I will tell you this - it didn't help me in the least. I suffered the consequences of my lies daily for years. Because of that, I'm now one of the most uptight, anally honest people you can find.



nomoretogive said:


> The OP has made it clear that she was not at all upset about her husband's going out, and that even his going to that particular place would not have been an issue at all had he been honest about it and not lied. He did ask her to go out, but he didn't ask her about that specific place, once the plans changed, which may have changed her opinion on going out at all.
> 
> Her husband obviously suspected that his going to that particular place would be an issue, went anyway, and then lied about it. I understand that plans change, but couldn't her husband have called and/or texted her at that point and said, "I know you didn't want to go to X place, but plans have changed and we're going to your favorite place now. I know you love it there, so I wanted to check to see if you'd reconsider and meet us there"? That would have avoided the need for lying at all....just by being respectful from the beginning.


Exactly. :iagree:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

Her husband obviously suspected that his going to that particular place would be an issue, went anyway, and then lied about it. I understand that plans change, but couldn't her husband have called and/or texted her at that point and said, "I know you didn't want to go to X place, but plans have changed and we're going to your favorite place now. I know you love it there, so I wanted to check to see if you'd reconsider and meet us there"? That would have avoided the need for lying at all....just by being respectful from the beginning.[/QUOTE]

ohhh, if only he had done exactly what you just said above. A point I have not belabored in this string at all, because I was trying not to be too over the top, is that when I he called to ask me to join he and our friend out , I was on my way out of the gym in sweats and he had said it was for one drink. I did not have time to go home and change and then meet them downtown. So, it was not that I did not want to go out, it was that I did not think I had enough time to shower, change and get there. 2 hours later was when he left the bar and went to the nice restaurant, no call/no text, 3.5 hours is when he actually arrived home. Now I am not even mad about that, I am very familiar how 1 drink can turn into many, no problem there. But the lie...well, that did me in.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

nomoretogive said:


> Obviously, due to my own personal circumstances, this thread is one that I'm following closely, just to get some new perspective.
> 
> Like, YinPrincess, I have an issue with lying -- that has probably been amplified given my circumstances with my husband. I make the blanket statement all the time, "I hate liars." Having read this thread, though, I'm wondering, "What does that mean, exactly?" and find myself needing to really define it in my head. Like Mikeydread has pointed out, we're ALL guilty -- even myself, and probably YinPricess if she was honest  -- of telling a lie, whether blatantly or by omission -- at some point during the course of our lives. So then are we all liars, albeit on a spectrum? Or do people become "liars" once some line is crossed, once it's pervasive, et cetera?
> 
> ...


I absolutely see what you're saying. And good on you for seeing that, with everything, there are varying degrees. Even in liars.

As to your last point of him making her know of the change, that does make sense, but some...most men don't think like that. I asked, and no means no. I don't even think he lied because she was upset he went to that particular place, I think he lied because he thought he'd be in trouble for going somewhere different than originally planned. But i'm speculating, and only he really knows why.
One thing I have learned though, when your woman comes asking you a question about something you did, just out of the blue, it means she knows something. So lying is only digging the hole deeper.


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> Yup, I've lied. I lied everyday for years about being beaten black and blue, about being raped, about using drugs - I lied to my friends, family, cops, judges - you name it. I will never say I've never lied, but I will tell you this - it didn't help me in the least. I suffered the consequences of my lies daily for years. Because of that, I'm now one of the most uptight, anally honest people you can find.
> 
> 
> I just want to be clear that I was saying that tongue-in-cheek, and not as a personal pointing of fingers or anything like that. I just felt like mikeydread's response to you was a little harsh, and I was making the point that even those of us who hate liars are probably guilty of doing it, too, at some point, in some context.
> ...


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> Well firstly, I apologize if I seemed insensitive to your abuse, but I had no idea.


It's ok. Made me a better stronger person. 



mikeydread1982 said:


> But sometimes, the juice of truth is not always worth the squeeze of retaliation.


If the OP gave her husband any indication that she may retaliate, he might have justified lying to himself. The fact of the matter is, you cannot always predict how another will react to truth - and assuming the worst, justifying deception, all in the name of "avoiding" being found out is quite flimsy when you think of it.

Here, he may have actually created his own self-fulfilling prophecy - perhaps the fear of the truth and her response to it prompted the lie, which she discovered and is responding to. He probably won't even see it *objectively* and use her response (to the lie) as further validation.

Bottom line - if someone can't handle the truth, it's THEIR issue, not yours. There is no reason to dilute your own integrity to "protect" another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brookeriver (Feb 17, 2012)

ohhh, if only he had done exactly what you just said above. A point I have not belabored in this string at all, because I was trying not to be too over the top, is that when he called to ask me to join he and our friend out , I was on my way out of the gym in sweats and he had said it was for one drink. I did not have time to go home and change and then meet them downtown. So, it was not that I did not want to go out, it was that I did not think I had enough time to shower, change and get there. 2 hours later was when he left the bar and went to the nice restaurant, no call/no text, 3.5 hours is when he actually arrived home. Now I am not even mad about that, I am very familiar how 1 drink can turn into many, no problem there. But the lie...well, that did me in.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

mikeydread1982 said:


> Hmmm, guess this person never told a lie ever in life. Lets see them reply with a lie now.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmm good strawman that doesn't relate to what I posted since I never stated that once a liar always a liar. Good try though. I admire it.


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> Bottom line - if someone can't handle the truth, it's THEIR issue, not yours. There is no reason to dilute your own integrity to "protect" another.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Beautifully said! Love it.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

nomoretogive said:


> I just want to be clear that I was saying that tongue-in-cheek, and not as a personal pointing of fingers or anything like that. I just felt like mikeydread's response to you was a little harsh, and I was making the point that even those of us who hate liars are probably guilty of doing it, too, at some point, in some context.
> 
> I find it interesting, though, that you and I share the same anti-lying stance and yet we're both guilty of having "lied" in our lifetimes about some of the very same things. I lied throughout my entire childhood about the abuse that I suffered at the hands of my father. I lied to school workers, to healthcare providers, to other family members, and got really, really good at it.
> 
> ...


It most definitely has, but in the end, being the honest people we are, the experiences have helped us grow. No worries about offending someone, especially me. I can hang with the truth. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nomoretogive (Oct 29, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> No worries about offending someone, especially me. I can hang with the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL, love it!!!!


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Hmmm good strawman that doesn't relate to what I posted since I never stated that once a liar always a liar. Good try though. I admire it.


No, but you did state, and I quote, "Liars are the lowest of low. If you have the ability to lie then there is no limit to what you are capable of."

It would make sense to argue that a person would not refer to themself as the lowest of the low, etc. So you were inferring that you have never lied with that statement. However, if you are refering to yourself in that manner, then you need not be so hard on yourself, EVERYONE lies, or has lied. It's been going on since man has walked the earth. Makes you no less of a human being.


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