# What Men Think About Sex Versus Reality



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Most of this post goes against things women say here on TAM, but a lot of it rings true to me.

Thoughts?

What Men Think about Sex Versus Reality - Dr. Psych Mom

Two I find most interesting:

"1- Frequent and strong sexual desire and thoughts should be natural and normal for all people in long-term relationships.

Frequent and strong sexual desire and sexual thoughts are natural for normal for SOME PEOPLE in long-term relationships. These people are usually either men, or women who feel close, relaxed, and attractive, or who are in a new and exciting relationship. Note the lack of qualifiers after the subset “men.” Note all the qualifiers after the subset “women.” I am not saying women don’t want to have sex. However, all the recent research shows that sex drive in women tanks in monogamous relationships, unlike what was previously thought, which was that men grow tired of women after a while but women never get sexually bored by their partners. So basically,* it is entirely normal and natural for your wife NOT to want to have sex with you, unfortunately.*"

"3- Women go into sex expecting and wanting the focus to be on their pleasure.

Au contraire, women generally do not want the primary focus of the sexual encounter to be on their pleasure. Instead, I hear female clients share frequent fantasies of being with men who are overpowered by lust and desire. In fact, the most common female sexual fantasy is rape. If a woman feels like her partner has the sole goal of giving her an orgasm, it is quite a lot of pressure and can make her feel self conscious and awkward. This does not mean that women do not want to enjoy sex; but, they have to feel that their partner is enjoying it at least primarily because he finds her so attractive sexually that he feels urgent desire for her. Women do not respond well to a man who is trying to use various “techniques” in order to be a better lover. This makes us feel like a sudoku puzzle you are trying to solve"


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I would agree with you that much of the article reads true (from personal experience and talking to others)


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I agree with all the 'corrected points'. Her point of view on porn is probably right too - and it is something I have thought a lot about.



> And the more porn men watch, the less likely they are to be satisfied with the physical appearance and sexual appetites and behaviors of their real life partner. See #7 above- did you ever see a porn movie where the woman didn’t get off from intercourse?


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Funny how manogomy, the thing "women want", kills desire, the thing "men want". Not haha funny, more like screw it why bother funny.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

She lost me when she said it's normal to not want to have sex with your spouse. I just can't imagine...


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> She lost me when she said it's normal to not want to have sex with your spouse. I just can't imagine...


It's pretty common, people can overlook physical and emotional attraction sometimes in order for something else. 
Security, Wealth etc

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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> She lost me when she said it's normal to not want to have sex with your spouse. I just can't imagine...


Maybe she means normal as in everything is normal, there's no wrong or right. It's normal to not want sex with your spouse. It's normal to drink 2 bottles of wine every night. It's normal to drown kittens. No one way is better than the other.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> She lost me when she said it's normal to not want to have sex with your spouse. I just can't imagine...




If you are in a LTR then you are in a minority. Doesn't mean people like you don't exist.

My W has no rape fantasies either.

I think she is spot on.

BTW these are social norms - not "acceptable relationship responses". Note that the divorce rate is pretty high too.

Also, she points out the complete lack of communication and all the assumptions "normal" people make.

So it would seem that increasing communication, dispelling myths, listening to your spouse, and being willing to please your spouse, would all lead to more women "wanting" to have sex with their spouses.

This dovetails nicely with His Needs Her Needs, which, though simplistic and pop psychology-ish, is still a very useful tool for spurring communication and starting to dispel the myths.




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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I Don't Know said:


> Maybe she means normal as in everything is normal, there's no wrong or right. It's normal to not want sex with your spouse. It's normal to drink 2 bottles of wine every night. It's normal to drown kittens. No one way is better than the other.


Agreed, I took it more as there is no right or wrong. As well, she might be comparing a couple when the first get together where they may want to have sex all the time to those in a LTR where it could be take it or leave it at times.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> She lost me when she said it's normal to not want to have sex with your spouse. I just can't imagine...


I read that point differently. It said that women who feel close to their partner, and who are relaxed and feel attractive continue to want to have sex with their partner.

So, if you re-write that with negatives... women who feel distant from their partner, are stressed out and feel unattractive won't want to continue to have sex with their parter. Or, in other words, women that are in sh!tty relationships don't want to fvck their partner. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm super-high drive, but I lost all desire for my XH, and it was because he made me feel ugly and unattractive, I was stressed over the health of our relationship, and I didn't feel close to him because he never spent any time with me and wouldn't talk to me about anything.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Her examples of what men think seem pretty reasonable. 

Her reality seems to say that most women become frigid sexless *****es after marriage. Sad, but it does seem to mostly align with reality based on a sample size of 1.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

peacem said:


> I agree with all the 'corrected points'. Her point of view on porn is probably right too - and it is something I have thought a lot about.


You could probably even expand this beyond porn to general social media. Constantly looking at photoshopped images could lead to a warped sense of what it actually attractive (not only in a mate, but also your own self image)


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

FeministInPink said:


> I read that point differently. It said that women who feel close to their partner, and who are relaxed and feel attractive continue to want to have sex with their partner.
> 
> So, if you re-write that with negatives... women who feel distant from their partner, are stressed out and feel unattractive won't want to continue to have sex with their parter. * Or, in other words, women that are in sh!tty relationships don't want to fvck their partner. *That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm super-high drive, but I lost all desire for my XH, and it was because he made me feel ugly and unattractive, I was stressed over the health of our relationship, and I didn't feel close to him because he never spent any time with me and wouldn't talk to me about anything.


The only problem with the bolded, it now makes the assumption that women want to fvck their partner, and if not, it is b/c the relationship is $h!tty. This seems to in part contradict some of what the author is saying.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> The only problem with the bolded, it now makes the assumption that women want to fvck their partner, and if not, it is b/c the relationship is $h!tty. This seems to in part contradict some of what the author is saying.


Sadly, I think that she is normalizing crappy relationships. A lot of people say that sex is the barometer of how healthy the relationship is... a drop in sex may not be the problem, but a symptom of another problem. (Mutually low-drive couple excluded, of course.) Of course, this argument doesn't address women with CSA issues, hormonal problems, mental health issues, etc, etc...

I'm not sure if it's a weak point, or if it's just poorly written/defended on her part.

ETA: And yes, the stress, distance, attractiveness thing can come from other sources outside the relationship. I'm not discounting that. But I don't know any women in sh!tty relationships that WANT to have sex with their partner.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> The only problem with the bolded, it now makes the assumption that women want to fvck their partner, and if not, it is b/c the relationship is $h!tty. This seems to in part contradict some of what the author is saying.


There have been a lot of studies lately indicating that women in LTRs lose sexual desire for their partner.

If this is common (i.e. normal), then we'll at least know that it's likely to happen and take steps to address it.

That makes a big difference in how one approaches the issue.

It's annoying because men seek sex and women seek commitment but, once they get the commitment, they start losing desire for sex (and this, i think, is subconscious. They're not purposely doing a "bait and switch". It's just how they work).

Btw, this isn't a problem in my marriage so my wife isn't "normal" either.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

What about the 3rd point?

"3- Women go into sex expecting and wanting the focus to be on their pleasure".

Everything I see on TAM focuses on "if you use the right techniques and she has great orgasms, she'll want more sex".

It seems like a very important point that women's main goal with sex often is to be the object of uncontrollable lust.

Women who are givers will have sex because they want to satisfy their husband.

Women who are takers will have sex only on their terms. 

I also think that it is very important for a partner to convince their SO that sex is very important to them. You shouldn't just sit around waiting for her to be in the mood. When my wife gives me oral and I orgasm, my wife is thrilled. 5 years ago she rarely did this. She had no idea how important this was to me. It was my fault, I had failed to make it clear.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> Sadly, I think that she is normalizing crappy relationships.


She's not saying it's "good", she's just saying that it's normal (i.e. common).

If that's true, then that's important information.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> She's not saying it's "good", she's just saying that it's normal (i.e. common).
> 
> If that's true, then that's important information.


Problem is, most of these 'normal women' don't as a general rule cruise TAM SIM waiting to confirm or deny the authors assertions :smile2:

The women that do haunt these parts are likely in the 'most men and some women' category.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> It's annoying because men seek sex and women seek commitment but, once they get the commitment, they start losing desire for sex (and this, i think, is subconscious. They're not purposely doing a "bait and switch". It's just how they work).


I disagree, I think once they get married they purposefully lose interest because they feel they don't have to do it anymore. It IS a bait and switch


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Monogamy: the great libido killer.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

What Women Think About Sex Versus Reality - Dr. Psych Mom

Here's the other side of the coin from her. In general I agree with her analysis. Except # 5. Sorry, I'm not interested in a relationship without oral and a fair dose of the other crazy (her word) things.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> What Women Think About Sex Versus Reality - Dr. Psych Mom
> 
> Here's the other side of the coin from her. In general I agree with her analysis. Except # 5. Sorry, I'm not interested in a relationship without oral and a fair dose of the other crazy (her word) things.


"It is not just the oral sex per se, but rather the idea of a woman that is that sexual and who wants to please her partner."

This is pretty on target for me. However, I agree that no oral sex would still be hard to accept.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> What about the 3rd point?
> 
> "3- Women go into sex expecting and wanting the focus to be on their pleasure".
> 
> Everything I see on TAM focuses on "if you use the right techniques and she has great orgasms, she'll want more sex".


You forgot Rule #16 of the Internet: *There are no girls on the internet.*

Thus, the Author could be right... 

But also, why would you believe a noted liar: ie "Samantha" Rodman. Nice try Sam, you're not fooling anyone. We know. We're on the internet too. >


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Monogamy: the great libido killer. 

Is it in the wiring for the attraction to eventually fade or is it because more often than not at some point men start taking their wives for granted and stop doing all the things they need to do to drive attraction? I get all the other points about stress, exhaustion, body image issues, resentment ... but monogamy? It just seems like if the man is doing his job this shouldn't be an issue.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> There have been a lot of studies lately indicating that women in LTRs lose sexual desire for their partner.
> *
> If this is common (i.e. normal), then we'll at least know that it's likely to happen and take steps to address it.*
> 
> ...


I wanted to emphasize the bolded as I think it is an important point.

I think my W is somewhere in between. Her sexual desire for me has not dropped (if anything, being honest, I would say her desire or attraction to me now is higher then back a while ago). It then becomes an issue of being able to prioritize what is important, and after being comfortable in a LTR not feeling like you have to continue putting work in (i.e. taking for granted).


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Being the object of uncontrollable lust, hmmm. That is a good point! I never viewed it as a ''goal'' of mine, but I find sex really satisfying with my fiance because he really shows his desire for me in obvious ways. He asks me a lot to wear just a bra and panties, when I'm making dinner, or something...and I'm like...ok, this is weird. lol He will just stand there and watch me cooking wearing that, and it's really a great feeling to have your SO lust over you like that. His desire for me, makes me desire him, if that makes sense. But, he's pretty hot, so the feeling is mutual. lol ^_^


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> "3- Women go into sex expecting and wanting the focus to be on their pleasure.
> 
> Au contraire, women generally do not want the primary focus of the sexual encounter to be on their pleasure. Instead, I hear female clients share frequent fantasies of being with men who are overpowered by lust and desire. In fact, the most common female sexual fantasy is rape. If a woman feels like her partner has the sole goal of giving her an orgasm, it is quite a lot of pressure and can make her feel self conscious and awkward. This does not mean that women do not want to enjoy sex; but, they have to feel that their partner is enjoying it at least primarily because he finds her so attractive sexually that he feels urgent desire for her. Women do not respond well to a man who is trying to use various “techniques” in order to be a better lover. This makes us feel like a sudoku puzzle you are trying to solve"


Actually that's not true.

What they avoid is _being_responsible_. In their mind "being about her pleasure" makes her the focus and thus gives her responsibility for what is going on.
the "ripper" (and many weirder!) fantasies all have a central theme - lack of responsibililty for the action or the outcome. ie I can have my pleasure and owe no-one nor be expected to reach certain levels, thus my pleasure is ALL about ME.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> Monogamy: the great libido killer.
> 
> Is it in the wiring for the attraction to eventually fade or is it because more often than not at some point men start taking their wives for granted and stop doing all the things they need to do to drive attraction? I get all the other points about stress, exhaustion, body image issues, resentment ... but monogamy? It just seems like if the man is doing his job this shouldn't be an issue.


I believe that the idea is that it's just "in the wiring".

After all, women can take their husband for granted and stop doing all those things and the guy still wants to have sex with his wife (usually). It seems to be a gender difference. Men have more testosterone than women.

Of course, it always helps for the guy not to be a d!ck.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Monogamy: the great libido killer.


I've heard it said that if you want to prevent teenage pregnancy, just make them get married first.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Can't relate at all.

I'm quite happy to have my pleasure be the focus of sex. Indeed, should he stop making efforts to give me pleasure that's precisely the moment when I'll lose interest in having sex with him.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

jb02157 said:


> I disagree, I think once they get married they purposefully lose interest because they feel they don't have to do it anymore. It IS a bait and switch


This has been my personal experience.....I will never be married again but I will continue with committed relationships as a single man.......when the desire of either party goes away.....so will I.......


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Hogwash!!! I just need a stiff breeze and I'm go to go


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> Hogwash!!! I just need a stiff breeze and I'm go to go




I usually prefer a partner too.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I believe that the idea is that it's just "in the wiring".
> 
> After all, women can take their husband for granted and stop doing all those things and the guy still wants to have sex with his wife (usually). It seems to be a gender difference. Men have more testosterone than women.
> 
> Of course, it always helps for the guy not to be a d!ck.


I'm not entirely sure about that, strategically 'being a ****' may be a requirement.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

''Strategically?'' 

I can't speak for all women, but head games would be a turn off for me. :/


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I believe that the idea is that it's just "in the wiring".
> 
> After all, women can take their husband for granted and stop doing all those things and the guy still wants to have sex with his wife (usually). It seems to be a gender difference. Men have more testosterone than women.
> 
> Of course, it always helps for the guy not to be a d!ck.


I wonder, if we assume that men in general have a higher drive then women (not saying there aren't women who don't have high drives or guys with low drives, but is that the norm, especially when you factor in Testosterone being a key component which is obviously more abundant in men?). Now you enter into a LTR, and look at the below from your first post:



> I am not saying women don’t want to have sex. However, all the recent research shows that sex drive in women tanks in monogamous relationships, unlike what was previously thought, which was that men grow tired of women after a while but women never get sexually bored by their partners.


If you take a woman who let's say have a normal drive (not high or low), and as the relationship progresses her drive drops. Given the relationship remains relatively healthy, and also given the drop in drive how much incentive is there really for her to push for an active sexual relationship (i.e. she is getting everything else she needs from the relationship, so back to the taking for granted concept)?

If you look at @FeministInPink she stated that she is a very high drive, but her drive tanked b/c of relationship issues with her Ex. That does make sense. However, having a high sex drive could also provide her the motivation to have a healthy sex life in a healthy relationship, where someone who doesn't have that high drive, there is much less incentive to do so.

If I look at my marriage, there was a random week a few years ago where my Ws drive went nuts (no clue what happened). She was extremely motivated to initiate sex during this time. Once her drive backed down so did her motivation. All else in our marriage remained constant


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> ''Strategically?''
> 
> I can't speak for all women, but head games would be a turn off for me. :/


Not head games. 

Daily, weekly and possibly monthly reminders of how her idea of acceptable frequency is a sh1tshow would be too ****ish. But if the slide is relentless towards once a month if you are lucky a little ****ishness is required periodically to remind her it's actually a partnership.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Not head games.
> 
> Daily, weekly and possibly monthly reminders of how her idea of acceptable frequency is a sh1tshow would be too ****ish. But if the slide is relentless towards once a month if you are lucky a little ****ishness is required periodically to remind her it's actually a partnership.


The tone of the post, if it is reflected IRL, is likely a turn off to her.

Try some humility and empathy instead.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Betrayedone said:


> This has been my personal experience.....I will never be married again but I will continue with committed relationships as a single man.......when the desire of either party goes away.....so will I.......


...and people wonder why marriage is avoided by men. Go figure.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> The tone of the post, if it is reflected IRL, is likely a turn off to her.
> 
> Try some humility and empathy instead.


The problem is the tone of the post was not reflected IRL many years ago.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I wonder, if we assume that men in general have a higher drive then women (not saying there aren't women who don't have high drives or guys with low drives, but is that the norm, especially when you factor in Testosterone being a key component which is obviously more abundant in men?). Now you enter into a LTR, and look at the below from your first post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the moral of the story is that a man has to be proactive in fighting this. The occasional reminder that you're not prepared to live in a marriage with a unsatisfactory sex life is needed.

Sitting back and hoping your wife will change is unlikely to work.

And, as the article states, a major motivator for women is satisfying her husband so, by not making your needs clear, she has less motivation to have sex with you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I think the moral of the story is that a man has to be proactive in fighting this. The occasional reminder that you're not prepared to live in a marriage with a unsatisfactory sex life is needed.
> 
> Sitting back and hoping your wife will change is unlikely to work.
> 
> And, as the article states, a major motivator for women is satisfying her husband so, by not making your needs clear, she has less motivation to have sex with you.


A woman whose needs are met by her husband is likely to want to please him. 

Needs not met . . . little desire (if any) to please.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If only that were true.....



jld said:


> A woman whose needs are met by her husband is likely to want to please him.
> 
> Needs not met . . . little desire (if any) to please.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think the article may be right on average but there is so much variation that it doesn't provide a good guide for how to behave in any particular relationship. 

Its very sad if its true that most women loose interest in sex in long term otherwise happy relationships. We of course can't tell from posts here because almost by definition women who post in a "sex" thread are interested in sex.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> A woman whose needs are met by her husband is likely to want to please him.
> 
> Needs not met . . . little desire (if any) to please.


Sounds good in theory, but not necessarily true. The false assumption once again is that if the woman does not please her H, it is solely b/c her needs are not being met. Not saying that isn't the case in some circumstances, but once again, that is what the author is trying to point out.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> I agree with all the 'corrected points'. Her point of view on porn is probably right too - and it is something I have thought a lot about.
> 
> 
> > And the more porn men watch, the less likely they are to be satisfied with the physical appearance and sexual appetites and behaviors of their real life partner. See #7 above- *did you ever see a porn movie where the woman didn’t get off from intercourse?*


I watched a porn just the other day where the wife and husband were going at it. She admitted to him that it was not going to happen for her and for him to "just enjoy himself."

Also the women in porn are now all shapes, sizes, ages, and races. I saw another video where the husband asked his wife to face towards him after doggy because he liked watching her big belly jiggle. When she turned around here belly was covered in stretch marks and indeed did jiggle more than her boobs. It was not a derogatory video, as I think the husband had a pregnant fetish and liked imagining her pregnant again. 

WHAT I DO FIND A PROBLEM IN PORN! Did you ever see the porn where the man didn't get off from intercourse?

Where is all the porn where the MAN has ED, or can't orgasm via PIV no matter how hard he tries? Oh wait! ...wait a minute ...so THAT is why the male actor gets to have a cut scene at the very end where he pulls out, probably 15 minutes are cut from all professional scenes where the guy is masturbating furiously to force himself to orgasm, and then the camera cuts back in just as he climaxes and only a dribble comes out onto her boobs. OK, OK, so porn is kind of more REALISTIC than we thought!

Badsanta


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

More thoughts on the monogamy topic, much of this drawing from what I have experienced in my marriage over the past few years -

There seems to be a spiraling effect that can be both upward and downward. Wife gets exhausted from kids, stress etc, her desire starts to drift, husband gets frustrated with decreasing frequency and quality of sex, his behavior deteriorates and he blames it all on the wife for never being interested instead of taking responsibility for downward trend and on it goes until the strains of sexlessness have seeped into the rest of the marriage. Is this monogamy killing desire or husband's behavior killing desire? Or are they implied to be one in the same? In the best cases, the wife finds a way to put her sex drive into sleep mode - doling out just enough to keep him at bay - while the husband turns to porn to relieve the tension and the marriage remains in tact, albeit lacking romance and passion. In the worst cases it leads to affairs and divorce. 

In cases where the wife is high desire to begin with, the husband never gets frustrated so his behavior doesn't deteriorate and the upward spiral self perpetuates. This is the very lucky minority who many of us envy. 

The biggest challenge that I have faced - and believe many others face as well - is figuring out how to stop the downward spiral before it's too late. In my opinion whether right or wrong - the husband must take the lead in order for this to happen. The hardest and most important first step is to recognize where your behavior has deteriorated in a way that has a desire killing effect on your wife. This can take many months to really figure out but when the husband gets his act together, attraction and desire can come back and monogamy may not prove to be the insurmountable desire killer in women it is often suggested to be.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I watched a porn just the other day where the wife and husband were going at it. She admitted to him that it was not going to happen for her and for him to "just enjoy himself."
> 
> Also the women in porn are now all shapes, sizes, ages, and races. I saw another video where the husband asked his wife to face towards him after doggy because he liked watching her big belly jiggle. When she turned around here belly was covered in stretch marks and indeed did jiggle more than her boobs. It was not a derogatory video, as I think the husband had a pregnant fetish and liked imagining her pregnant again.
> 
> ...


No it never happens though it bothers me that men in porn are rather unattractive. Never seen 1 man that is sexy (and I am not that fussy). I understand that women in porn are varied in attractiveness or shape and size but it doesn't take long to find someone very beautiful or has an amazing body. 

So I had a heated debate last night with H as to whether porn uglifies or desexualises women - to which he argued 'only if you have trouble separating fantasy from reality'. 

As he is always right and never lies then I will have retract my statement above and erase certain moments in our life as though it never happened.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> A woman whose needs are met by her husband is likely to want to please him.
> 
> Needs not met . . . little desire (if any) to please.


So then you disagree with the article's premise, which is fine. 

Or are you saying yes - your sex drive tanked after marriage but you still wanted to please your husband because he was such a great guy?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> A woman whose needs are met by her husband is likely to want to please him.
> 
> Needs not met . . . little desire (if any) to please.


That's the mistake many men make, they think the above is true.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That is interesting. Are you including amateur / homemade porn as well as pro stuff when you say the men are not attractive? 

I don't find the women in pro porn to be attractive, but some of the ones in amateur stuff are. The women in pro porn see so fake that they seem more like manikins than people. 







peacem said:


> No it never happens though it bothers me that men in porn are rather unattractive. Never seen 1 man that is sexy (and I am not that fussy). I understand that women in porn are varied in attractiveness or shape and size but it doesn't take long to find someone very beautiful or has an amazing body.
> 
> So I had a heated debate last night with H as to whether porn uglifies or desexualises women - to which he argued 'only if you have trouble separating fantasy from reality'.
> 
> As he is always right and never lies then I will have retract my statement above and erase certain moments in our life as though it never happened.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> So then you disagree with the article's premise, which is fine.
> 
> Or are you saying yes - your sex drive tanked after marriage but you still wanted to please your husband because he was such a great guy?


I think my desire is much higher now than when we were first together, nearly 24 years ago. At the beginning I only wanted sex every other day. That made him pretty mad at first, because he expected it every day. But as he got to know me, he adjusted to my rhythm.

Nowadays we can do it twice a day, no problem. (Three times and I might get a bladder infection, though, so no more than twice a day.)

Yes, my desire is very much linked to how he treats me. Loving, attentive behavior and I will be all over him. And if he taps into my fantasies . . . Oh, my goodness!

I very much agree with #s 1 and 2 of the men's thinking in the article. I think a strong desire during the whole marriage, as well as sex many times a week, should be normal, if the man is treating her right. That is how I feel, anyway. 

I know there were times when we had all little ones that we only had it once a week, though. Once a week should be the minimum in a normal marriage, though, imo.

I don't feel very comfortable giving details on our sex life. But I will say that the more loved and nurtured I feel, the more I desire, actually sometimes practically _ache_, to please him.

But if he were a jerk, not only would we not be having sex (that would be the first thing to go!), we would not even be together.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

peacem said:


> No it never happens though it bothers me that men in porn are rather unattractive. Never seen 1 man that is sexy (and I am not that fussy). I understand that women in porn are varied in attractiveness or shape and size but it doesn't take long to find someone very beautiful or has an amazing body.
> 
> So I had a heated debate last night with H as to whether porn uglifies or desexualises women - to which he argued 'only if you have trouble separating fantasy from reality'.
> 
> As he is always right and never lies then I will have retract my statement above and erase certain moments in our life as though it never happened.


I'm pretty sure that the main criteria is penis size.

I pre-Viagra days, it was hard to find guys who could maintain an erection while filming. So they had to take whoever they could which resulted in guys like John Holmes and Ron Jeremy (the hedgehog).

Nowadays, with Viagra, they can be pickier and I think the guys have gotten somewhat better looking (you can see the difference in erection hardness between vintage porn and current porn).

I think they pick on size because it's easier to photograph. For male oriented porn, I can't see why size would matter otherwise.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

uhtred said:


> If only that were true.....


The first chapter of NMMNG in one sentence.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> That's the mistake many men make, they think the above is true.


It is true for me.

Maybe it depends on the kind of woman you married?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> Yes, my desire is very much linked to how he treats me. Loving, attentive behavior and I will be all over him. And if he taps into my fantasies . . . Oh, my goodness!
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


That's pretty much the case for my wife as well. But I don't think it's the "norm".


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> That's pretty much the case for my wife as well. But I don't think it's the "norm".


What do you think the norm is?


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

uhtred said:


> That is interesting. Are you including amateur / homemade porn as well as pro stuff when you say the men are not attractive?
> 
> I don't find the women in pro porn to be attractive, but some of the ones in amateur stuff are. The women in pro porn see so fake that they seem more like manikins than people.


All porn that I have seen both professional and amateur. They either look rough or too muscular - does nothing for me. A big penis does nothing for me either. My H said he avoids anything with a man in it, and it was weird because I knew exactly what he meant :surprise:. 

I must confess I probably haven't watched enough porn to make such generalisations, but the thought of porn men being rather gross really has stayed with me.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Here is another observation I had. I have always been higher drive (or I prefer to say a healthy drive). Over the past few months or so, for a variety of reasons, my drive tanked. I didn't find my W less attractive, there weren't any sudden marital issues, etc... However, with my drive down I had little interest/motivation to initiate sex. I wouldn't reject my W if she initiated and I still enjoyed sex. I think you just can't downplay how important drive is. The easy answer is to just simply dismiss it and push the blame on someone else (i.e. my SO must be doing something wrong, not meeting my needs, etc...). I believe though this is what the author is trying to state, if the "norm" is for women to have decreased drive as a LTR progresses, then this itself could provide a major roadblock in terms of sex (without factoring in if there are any other issues within the relationship). 

As @Buddy400 stated, knowing if this is common (i.e. normal), then we'll at least know that it's likely to happen and take steps to address it.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm pretty sure that the main criteria is penis size.
> 
> I pre-Viagra days, it was hard to find guys who could maintain an erection while filming. So they had to take whoever they could which resulted in guys like John Holmes and Ron Jeremy (the hedgehog).
> 
> ...


I can only speak for myself but it takes a lot more to get me going than an erect penis. I think it is the acting and role playing that I find repulsive, they don't act sexy to me. Just gross.

Porn used to turn my stomach and I realised that it is the MEN that turn my stomach. I can watch female only porn and can appreciate how arousing it can be.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> It is true for me.
> 
> Maybe it depends on the kind of woman you married?


Sure, if only there was manufacturers labels attached. There aren't and if the article's premise is even partially correct one can't tell until the commitment is made and time has passed. Unless the women falls in the category of "most men and some women"


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

anonmd said:


> Sure, if only there was manufacturers labels attached.


Would need to be permanently attached and laminated so it cannot be altered :grin2:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> What do you think the norm is?


That women in long term relationships lose sexual desire for their SO.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Would need to be permanently attached and laminated so it cannot be altered :grin2:


You are assuming that the drive is within the woman. That could be true. It could also be that it is the man she is with that is the catalyst.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I think the article may be right on average but there is so much variation that it doesn't provide a good guide for how to behave in any particular relationship.
> 
> Its very sad if its true that most women loose interest in sex in long term otherwise happy relationships. We of course can't tell from posts here because almost by definition women who post in a "sex" thread are interested in sex.


There was an article about this that @Anon1111 (?) linked to a while ago. 

There was a woman who had lost sexual desire for her husband, divorced and started a hot sex life with her new boyfriend.

Then, after a year or so, she felt her sexual desire fading again. She didn't want to go through that again and she now knew that the problem was her.

She didn't *want* that to happen. She *wanted* her sexual desire to remain strong

But that's just how her mind was wired to work, she had no conscious control.

So it often appears that men can meet every need of a woman and often she'll still lose interest in sex with him.

It sure doesn't look good, but I don't think it's being done consciously.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> So I had a heated debate last night with H as to whether porn uglifies or desexualises women - to which he argued 'only if you have trouble separating fantasy from reality'.
> 
> As he is always right and never lies then I will have retract my statement above and erase certain moments in our life as though it never happened.


I would argue that he has been "ugly" about _how_ he goes about separating YOU regarding fantasy from reality. He could be a little more tactful in those arguments. This would be in reference to a past post of yours where he hurt your feelings by claiming you should never attempt to be exciting like women in porn for him and that sex in marriage should be modest (no fancy lingerie/seduction), not too often, and only when he is ready for it about once every other week.

If that is how he feels, well then he could just say that sex in porn is overrated, too dramatic, and perhaps silly. And that he sometimes likes it more when things with you are simple, you know like just how things went down when he would probably spy on his mom & dad, but he knows his fantasy of you roleplaying his mom would not go too well!

> > >

Badsanta

PS: There is so much sarcasm here in this post that even I'm doing a double take! >


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> You are assuming that the drive is within the woman. That could be true. It could also be that it is the man she is with that is the catalyst.


I wasn't assuming anything, my post was just a joke alongside AnonMds post lol

Yes, I agree that there could be a variety of reasons (whether internal or due to external catalysts).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> I can only speak for myself but it takes a lot more to get me going than an erect penis. I think it is the acting and role playing that I find repulsive, they don't act sexy to me. Just gross.
> 
> Porn used to turn my stomach and I realised that it is the MEN that turn my stomach. I can watch female only porn and can appreciate how arousing it can be.



Just so you know, some of the male porn stars became so famous BECAUSE the male looks a little creepy and repulsive. The reason they became so famous is that people like Ron Jeremy are an easy guy for the average male porn viewer to relate to, as in "if this guy can get all those girls to go so crazy, well then this means I too may actually have a chance to find someone that loves me!"










So that is a historical part of how the porn industry grew up that you may not be aware. 

Badsanta


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Just so you know, some of the male porn stars became so famous BECAUSE the male looks a little creepy and repulsive. The reason they became so famous is that people like Ron Jeremy are an easy guy for the average male porn viewer to relate to, as in "if this guy can get all those girls to go so crazy, well then this means I too may actually have a chance to find someone that loves me!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be fair to the Hedgehog, he was a lot thinner when he started 

I think he got the job due to his penis size and his ability to maintain an erection pre-Viagra.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I think it's normal to lose sexual desire in a long term relationship. I think women desire novelty much more than men. We change our hair style and color, we change wardrobes, we change the color schemes in our homes, we redecorate, get bored with cooking or the typical home menu... men could live every day contentedly with the same outfit and never get bored, or even notice. My own H is absolutely a creature of habit and follows his methods for every days tasks to the letter. I think this is why men are perplexed and women are frustrated. We are bored! Same old same old same old... 

I also think women tend to put the responsibility for the sex life on men, rightly or wrongly. 

I think we underestimate just how important a positive self image is for women wrt their sex drive. If we suffer from serious body image problems, the LAST thing we want is to get naked! I used to have this problem pretty severely, along with other issues. Vainity is a curse because we care about how we look and if what we see disgusts us we won't want to share it. Learning to be positive about our body is absolutely worth the effort! And it does take effort!



LOL, this one is my favorite myth:



> 10- After the baby, most women get their sex drive back reasonably quickly.
> 
> If by reasonably quickly, you mean, after the last baby is 5 years old and sleeps through the night. And also if by that point they’ve gotten back to working out, eating right, sleeping well, and feeling good about who they are as a person and not just as a mommy. In that case, yes, pretty quickly.



I don't think we should tell young couples the truth or our species will die out!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> To be fair to the Hedgehog, he was a lot thinner when he started
> 
> I think he got the job due to his penis size and his ability to maintain an erection pre-Viagra.


And his legendary ability to maintain an erection and control his orgasm. So not only could he last long enough to film all the positions, when they got to the end of the list he could produce the money shot on command. No wasted film. Now with digital the cost of film is not an issue but when he started they didn't want to have to film 10 extra minutes waiting for the guy to finish.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> And his legendary ability to maintain an erection and control his orgasm. So not only could he last long enough to film all the positions, when they got to the end of the list he could produce the money shot on command. No wasted film. Now with digital the cost of film is not an issue but when he started they didn't want to have to film 10 extra minutes waiting for the guy to finish.


Ya all seem to know a lot about Ron Jeremy and his d$c$ >


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> LOL, this one is my favorite myth:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The funny thing is, young couples seem to be immune. I've got a much younger buddy who is in the infatuation / planning on marriage stage - absolutely immune to any reality of marriage talk. Oh no, not MY girl :surprise:


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

jld said:


> You are assuming that the drive is within the woman. That could be true. It could also be that it is the man she is with that is the catalyst.


I think it is some of both. I did not change when I changed wives - if I'm the catalyst, it only works on some women, apparently only on those who have a sex drive to begin with. (It has also worked for other women, who - apparently - also had a healthy libido of their own.)

If there is no drive, a catalyst won't cause a reaction. If there is no catalyst, a drive may not be triggered.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I think we underestimate just how important a positive self image is for women wrt their sex drive. If we suffer from serious body image problems, the LAST thing we want is to get naked! I used to have this problem pretty severely, along with other issues. Vainity is a curse because we care about how we look and if what we see disgusts us we won't want to share it. *Learning to be positive about our body is absolutely worth the effort! And it does take effort!*


I think it is also critical for a husband to help his wife with this. Personally I find the following problems when a wife is struggling with her self image:



Her feelings are real, and if you tell her she is beautiful she will feel as though you are completely out of touch with her feelings and lying to her.
She will see any compliments as an effort to just manipulate her for sex.
She will not understand how her husband's arousal is attributed to her and claim that it is completely arbitrary

So it actually is helpful to first start out by validating her feelings by reflecting the same thing about yourself, but in a way that has a much more positive attitude. Claim you know you need to take better care of your health, but that you are concerned that you are not even bothered by it that much so you are going to need your wife to help motivate you. Claim that you feel the same about your wife's health and appearance in that you know she could probably take better care of herself, but that you also have no problems accepting her just the way she looks. Claim that this makes getting motivated more challenging. Try to be honest about this if you can. This conveys, "I care about our health, but we still look OK, so it is just hard for me to get motivated to be healthier." Regardless of the reaction, working together to be healthier is a POSITIVE thing because it gives the gesture that you care about each other's wellbeing.

If your wife believes compliments are manipulating her for sex AND that male arousal levels are arbitrary, play into those fears comically as if you are trying to help her. I told my wife this morning that her outfit had some serious issues. She looked at me very concerned and I asked her to turn around and let me see it good. I told her that for reasons that I do not understand that I was easily getting aroused today and that I found it really annoying that she was dressed too sexy, and that she needed to put on something that looked really dull! She reacted to this by getting a huge smile on her face as she is able to better believe my compliment when I put it to her in a way that also validates her feelings. She looked at me with a huge smile and said, "tough shît for you then!" and proceeded to put on her lipstick in the mirror while wiggling her butt in my general direction.

Am I being manipulating my wife? I don't think there is any malice in using deceptive and/or redirecting behaviors to help someone see the truth about how beautiful they are. 

Does my wife have more self confidence now? It took years of work, but YES and it has been worth it!

Badsanta


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I think it is also critical for a husband to help his wife with this. Personally I find the following problems when a wife is struggling with her self image:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely, positively, solid gold truth!


However, the rest didn't resonate with me whe I think in the old mind set. In fact, saying her appearance doesn't bother you, or that you don't mind about ..xyz...you are confirming her neurotic fears. You also see her imperfections but your randy self can look past them in order to get laid because...men be horny.

Also, validating her neurotic feelings isn't the way to go. Call it what it is, neurotic warped body image that makes it impossible for her to see just how beautiful she is! Don't argue by saying "but you're not fat!" Just say, "I wish you could see you the way I see you because what I see is perfection and it is a crime that you can't see it!"




> So it actually is helpful to first start out by validating her feelings by reflecting the same thing about yourself, but in a way that has a much more positive attitude. Claim you know you need to take better care of your health, but that you are concerned that you are not even bothered by it that much so you are going to need your wife to help motivate you. Claim that you feel the same about your wife's health and appearance in that you know she could probably take better care of herself, but that you also have no problems accepting her just the way she looks. Claim that this makes getting motivated more challenging. Try to be honest about this if you can. This conveys, "I care about our health, but we still look OK, so it is just hard for me to get motivated to be healthier." Regardless of the reaction, working together to be healthier is a POSITIVE thing because it gives the gesture that you care about each other's wellbeing.
> 
> If your wife believes compliments are manipulating her for sex AND that male arousal levels are arbitrary, play into those fears comically as if you are trying to help her. I told my wife this morning that her outfit had some serious issues. She looked at me very concerned and I asked her to turn around and let me see it good. I told her that for reasons that I do not understand that I was easily getting aroused today and that I found it really annoying that she was dressed too sexy, and that she needed to put on something that looked really dull! She reacted to this by getting a huge smile on her face as she is able to better believe my compliment when I put it to her in a way that also validates her feelings. She looked at me with a huge smile and said, "tough shît for you then!" and proceeded to put on her lipstick in the mirror while wiggling her butt in my general direction.
> 
> ...



The teasing, saying you "can't be in the same room with her without getting a woody cause she's all that," that's good!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> A woman whose needs are met by her husband is likely to want to please him.
> 
> Needs not met . . . little desire (if any) to please.


You must be new here 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

anonmd said:


> Not head games.
> 
> Daily, weekly and possibly monthly reminders of how her idea of acceptable frequency is a sh1tshow would be too ****ish. But if the slide is relentless towards once a month if you are lucky a little ****ishness is required periodically to remind her it's actually a partnership.


Sex (& ejaculate) release additional hormones in women. progesterone and oxytocin, in large amounts. Chemically speaking reduction in contact and other effects (aforementioned, but also kissing pheromones) is also like to turn a uncommon encounters into rare ones.

On a personal note, even if sex was good, previous partners have frequently had a lull, post-menstruation. The only seriously HD partners I've had also had shorter menstruation times and often didn't mind continuing during.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> You must be new here
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


That was funny.

But you're overlooking the need for novelty. Also, none of this applies to Not Normal Persons.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I think in the old mind set. In fact, saying her appearance doesn't bother you, or that you don't mind about ..xyz...you are confirming her neurotic fears. You also see her imperfections but your randy self can look past them in order to get laid because...men be horny.
> 
> Also, validating her neurotic feelings isn't the way to go. Call it what it is, neurotic warped body image that makes it impossible for her to see just how beautiful she is! Don't argue by saying "but you're not fat!" Just say, "*I wish you could see you the way I see you because what I see is perfection and it is a crime that you can't see it!*"


I tried that, and tried and tried and tried, but she would only get upset and accuse me of manipulating her! 

I did manage to make a breakthrough one day when I tried again and got our daughter to back me up and explain "MOM YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL AND DADDY'S NOT LYING TO YOU!" I saw that one hit her really hard and she looked shocked.

I do still find it helpful to ask her to help us work together to stay healthy. 

If she insists on calling herself a big fat cow, we have to agree to disagree. I now find she really responds way better if I claim that I have a serious sexual fetish for big fat cows and that her saying that gets me hard and it really annoys the crap out of me that such things get me all aroused! I then say, "I know, I know, I'm messed up! And your NOT helping me!" She responds to this by shoving her boobs in my face and telling me "these don't help you either do they!" ...and I'll be like:










See for yourself woman!

Badsanta


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Most of this post goes against things women say here on TAM, but a lot of it rings true to me.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> What Men Think about Sex Versus Reality - Dr. Psych Mom


I read the entire article. My thoughts are that it is just more data/opinion toward proving that, as a woman, my sexuality is not "normal" or "average".

Maybe my mother's system was flooded with excess testosterone during my in utero brain development, maybe because I was raised in a sex-positive/body-positive family environment ... who knows why?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think there is a lot of variation in women (and men) on this. For some women, sex with their partner is very desirable when the relationship is good. For others, it is never desirable, no matter how good the relationship. For some, as the article implies, sex is desirable when the relationship is unstable - though whether they feel more aroused, or are acting out of fear is unclear. 




jld said:


> It is true for me.
> 
> Maybe it depends on the kind of woman you married?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I think there is a lot of variation in women (and men) on this. For some women, sex with their partner is very desirable when the relationship is good. For others, it is never desirable, no matter how good the relationship. For some, as the article implies, *sex is desirable when the relationship is unstable* - though whether they feel more aroused, or are acting out of fear is unclear.


Where do you get the bolded?

This is what I read:

_"Furthermore, any resentful feelings she has about you or the relationship in general, or *anything that makes her feel insecure, will also kill her sex drive*."_


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I tried that, and tried and tried and tried, but she would only get upset and accuse me of manipulating her!
> 
> I did manage to make a breakthrough one day when I tried again and got our daughter to back me up and explain "MOM YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL AND DADDY'S NOT LYING TO YOU!" I saw that one hit her really hard and she looked shocked.
> 
> ...


I wonder if just kissing and caressing the bits she doesn't like is better than verbal persuasion. I have come to learn that actions speak louder than words.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I think there is a lot of variation in women (and men) on this. For some women, sex with their partner is very desirable when the relationship is good. For others, it is never desirable, no matter how good the relationship. For some, as the article implies, sex is desirable when the relationship is unstable - though whether they feel more aroused, or are acting out of fear is unclear.


And for some the state of the relationship has very little to do with arousal or desire for sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you had said that instability increased sex drive. 

Many people seem to believe that and it does match some of my experience. I wish it were not true, and I'm not willing to make my marriage unstable in order to get sex, but there is some evidence that it works. 

I would like to believe that a good sex life is part of an otherwise happy and stable relationship, it just often seems not to be the case. 





jld said:


> Where do you get the bolded?
> 
> This is what I read:
> 
> _"Furthermore, any resentful feelings she has about you or the relationship in general, or *anything that makes her feel insecure, will also kill her sex drive*."_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you had said that instability increased sex drive.
> 
> Many people seem to believe that and it does match some of my experience. I wish it were not true, and I'm not willing to make my marriage unstable in order to get sex, but there is some evidence that it works.
> 
> I would like to believe that a good sex life is part of an otherwise happy and stable relationship, it just often seems not to be the case.


You did not say that I said it. You said that the article said it. 

But that is not what I read in the article. I provided a quote that said the opposite.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> And for some the state of the relationship has very little to do with arousal or desire for sex.


Me too. Wanting sex is wanting sex is wanting sex. Shut up and get naked!


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I tried that, and tried and tried and tried, but she would only get upset and accuse me of manipulating her!
> 
> I did manage to make a breakthrough one day when I tried again and got our daughter to back me up and explain "MOM YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL AND DADDY'S NOT LYING TO YOU!" I saw that one hit her really hard and she looked shocked.
> 
> ...



Try to get head around WHY she needs to see herself as "the big fat cow"

Yes it is a real trip down the rabbit hole but often a lot of mental hangups are. Normally it's a cluster of pretty unrelated issues often from the past, and stimulated by life circumstances in the present.
It could be as simple as when she was younger, a friend (or even frenemy) chose to deal with other people rather than her "to be cool" and she's mentally connected that to body image issues she was having at the time (due to some other crush or magazine or friend's comment). And now, because she feels social adrift, she "feels like a big fat cow" and thus unhappy... and as Badsanta has said , comments to the contrary don't have context in her mental construct - worse, it creates -more- feelings of dissonance and social anxiety because her loved ones' are disagreeing with her.
This will, with pressure, stress, responsibility, cause even more difficulties.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> There was an article about this that @Anon1111 (?) linked to a while ago.
> 
> There was a woman who had lost sexual desire for her husband, divorced and started a hot sex life with her new boyfriend.
> 
> ...



Get some HRT, with higher than average Testosterone dose.
sexual desire will not be the problem.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

peacem said:


> All porn that I have seen both professional and amateur. They either look rough or too muscular - does nothing for me. A big penis does nothing for me either. My H said he avoids anything with a man in it, and it was weird because I knew exactly what he meant :surprise:.
> 
> I must confess I probably haven't watched enough porn to make such generalisations, but the thought of porn men being rather gross really has stayed with me.



Very hard for a porn to create the desirable aspects of a man within the limits of the "advert".
Shows in which "hot men" or "rock stars" become attractive involve longer runs and success. Folks like Tom Selleck are rare, and even then he needed fashionable clothes, beautiful island, perfect job, social recognition, and a straight playing wingman to make the sell. Can you think of any 15 min "sex stars"? Even when Shaun Connery was considered hot stuff, it was due to the trappings and success rather than his looks or person.

A lot of "playa's" take advantage of this. Act bold, flash the cash, get a top car, great clothes, and a good job. The guys themselves can be ugly scumbags but the women still go for it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> That was funny.
> 
> But you're overlooking the need for novelty. Also, none of this applies to Not Normal Persons.


Consistency and stability trump novelty. At least that's what marketing tells me 

I understand the part about not meeting emotional or other needs, but one can easily rationalize those away while blaming their partner.



Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Get some HRT, with higher than average Testosterone dose.
> sexual desire will not be the problem.


Try suggesting that to a card carrying member of the zero desire brigade.....

There's a baseline desire and incremental desire in my opinion. The baseline desire is innate, it's there no matter the deltas of everyday life. The incremental is the reactionary, spontaneous, or responsive desire. Incremental desire alone can't carry a healthy relationship, as it's too random or inconsistent and dependent on all kinds of things.

I'll let y'all stew on this. 

Can you identify these two components of desire? Quantity them? Me thinks the zero desire crowd lacks the baseline desire and may occasionally rise to the occasion... But in general, desire ain't there. 

Darn I should publish this 

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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

spotthedeaddog said:


> *Try to get head around WHY she needs to see herself as "the big fat cow"*


 @spotthedeaddog I am NOT going to ever try to honestly wrap my head around a "big fat cow!" That would probably freak my wife out and transport us into awkward land. I'll just be myself and tell her that I love her just the way she is, and that I even still love her just the way she thinks she is. My intent is genuine. No one is perfect, nor will we ever see ourselves as being perfect.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> I'll let y'all stew on this.
> 
> *Can you identify these two components of desire?* Quantity them? Me thinks the zero desire crowd lacks the baseline desire and may occasionally rise to the occasion... But in general, desire ain't there.


Problem A) Said components must be a perceived as viable for someone with zero desire. 

Problem B) Such components must function in ways that only create the illusion of desire.

Component 1) Lowered expectations due to horrific problems with one's personal self image.

Component 2) Momentary outburst of stupidity. 

Paradox - J2 will immediately agree but then become unable to reconcile her horrific problems with her self image resulting in outbursts of stupidity in the past with you. But that is OK, you can tell her that no one is perfect and that you still love her "just the way she is!"


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Problem A) Said components must be a perceived as viable for someone with zero desire.
> 
> Problem B) Such components must function in ways that only create the illusion of desire.
> 
> ...


I am not sure I agree with a single word here  amazing!

Problem A: I doubt baseline desire exists for her. She won't notice good looking men in real life or TV. Only their perceived status.

Problem B: not really. Lack of baseline desire plus infrequent spontaneous desire leads to... You guessed it. Infrequent. She's not faking desire.

Component 1. Her self image is pretty good - she thinks -. It's her paranoia about the outside world that screws her over.

Component 2. It's not momentary, it's actually remarkably consistent. And it's a toss up whether she's stupid or evil. There's both.

Paradox: she's remarkably consistent and can't be swayed without resorting to manipulation. But, not at the intimate or emotional level.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Consistency and stability trump novelty. At least that's what marketing tells me
> 
> I understand the part about not meeting emotional or other needs, but one can easily rationalize those away while blaming their partner.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's an either/or choice. Why can't you be consistent, stable, and also able to be spontaneous?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't think it's an either/or choice. Why can't you be consistent, stable, and also able to be spontaneous?


Because the spontaneous choice within the framework of marriage means novelties which often leads to extramarital stuff..

I suppose spontaneous was not the best word I could have used, but you get the idea. Not in a surprise type out of the blue, more like, what's out there.

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Very hard for a porn to create the desirable aspects of a man within the limits of the "advert".
> Shows in which "hot men" or "rock stars" become attractive involve longer runs and success. Folks like Tom Selleck are rare, and even then he needed fashionable clothes, beautiful island, perfect job, social recognition, and a straight playing wingman to make the sell. Can you think of any 15 min "sex stars"? Even when Shaun Connery was considered hot stuff, it was due to the trappings and success rather than his looks or person.
> 
> A lot of "playa's" take advantage of this. Act bold, flash the cash, get a top car, great clothes, and a good job. The guys themselves can be ugly scumbags but the women still go for it.


There are lots of hot guys in porn these days, and plenty of 15 minute sex stars. But you'd have to be an avid porn watcher to know about them. There are still awards given to the porn industry stars and it is a big deal. Beyond the main award thingy, there are dozens of smaller awards given by various promoters, and these are the ways some guys get their 15 minutes. Even the ones who don't get awards...can still get to be in a slick porn movie and get some viewing. I've seen tons of hot guys in porn. It really depends on what you are watching and where you look for it.

And no, it doesn't take an entire island paradise and a hot car to make the guy hot. What it takes is a great body, a great face, great hair and him doing something sexy.

Of course, what the guy is doing would not be sexy to every gal...there's a huge variety of action in porn. But I bet I could find several porn guys who most any woman would label as "hot" in the general sense. They are out there. You can't be looking in the vintage section to find them.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> *Because the spontaneous choice within the framework of marriage means novelties which often leads to extramarital stuff.*.
> 
> I suppose spontaneous was not the best word I could have used, but you get the idea. Not in a surprise type out of the blue, more like, what's out there.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


I might have missed what you were referring to...and I see that you are saying maybe spontaneous isn't the right word but...

There is simply no reason why a monogamous couple cannot still surprise and delight each other sexually.

It has to be a goal of the couple to make it keep happening in the long term, however.

If you have a mismatch and one partner isn't going to bother, then the heat is going to die out of the sex life most likely.

I agree with Anon Pink when she said sometimes the women place the responsibility for the fire of the sex life entirely on the man. And @jld does this for sure in her marriage (and it works out wonderfully for them). I personally am somewhat assertive about my sexuality, so I do not leave the responsibility all in his lap for the heat of our sex life...I like being spontaneous, jumping on him out of nowhere, taking over when I want to, going in for passionate kisses when I want them....I am glad I can do these things and he still does his part, too. We both keep the heat alive.

But when either partner leaves it all up to the other partner to keep the coals stoked, I think it just has a higher likelihood of getting snuffed out. 

(To be clear, in @jld 's case, I think she is fanning the flames in her own way, she is not completely passive in her sexuality, she is just passive in her approach to it while Dug us active in his approach).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I might have missed what you were referring to...and I see that you are saying maybe spontaneous isn't the right word but...
> 
> There is simply no reason why a monogamous couple cannot still surprise and delight each other sexually.
> 
> ...


I think that's true. I am transparent with him, and very affectionate. That is probably a big contribution right there.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

john117 said:


> Problem A: I doubt baseline desire exists for her. *She won't notice good looking men in real life or TV.* Only their perceived status.




But...but.., Anderson Cooper? [ironically]


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## Stack (Mar 14, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> She lost me when she said it's normal to not want to have sex with your spouse. I just can't imagine...


+1

The comment about wives not wanting their husband is to condition men not to expect sex as part of marriage contract. The issue women will never speak honestly about is how many women marry men they aren't sexually attracted to or they don't sexually desire. The fact is, women who want to have sex with a man will find a way.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> So basically,* it is entirely normal and natural for your wife NOT to want to have sex with you, unfortunately.*"


Very timely for me. No, I am not married, but am dating a lady who wants an LTR. It's been three months and practically zero enthusiasm for sex or even signs that she's looking forward to it.

So, this confirms my sense that if she is not attracted to me now, it is pretty much downhill from here. Uh, Bye Felicia.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GoodFunLife said:


> The biggest challenge that I have faced - and believe many others face as well - is figuring out how to stop the downward spiral before it's too late. In my opinion whether right or wrong - the husband must take the lead in order for this to happen. The hardest and most important first step is to recognize where your behavior has deteriorated in a way that has a desire killing effect on your wife.


So, then, the lady can have sex or not as she sees fit, but the guy has to be the selfless rock of stability and love?

That is unrealistic, as least over more than the short term. Disappointment and resentment are just as real for men as for women. Both have to meet their partner's needs consistently or it falls apart.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

DTO said:


> Very timely for me. No, I am not married, but am dating a lady who wants an LTR. It's been three months and practically zero enthusiasm for sex or even signs that she's looking forward to it.
> 
> So, this confirms my sense that if she is not attracted to me now, it is pretty much downhill from here. Uh, Bye Felicia.


Dude, yes, you should bail on this one. If she isn't itching to jump your bones, you should jump ship.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> I disagree, I think once they get married they purposefully lose interest because they feel they don't have to do it anymore. It IS a bait and switch


I don't think this is necessarily the norm, but it certainly does happen. The simple truth is a lady with a very low drive will have a hard time finding a partner/spouse she wants otherwise.

How many guys would accept an offer of "hey, I want to get to know you better but you need to know I could not care less about having sex"?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Some would. There are quite a few women here who are with men who constantly turn them down for sex. 




DTO said:


> I don't think this is necessarily the norm, but it certainly does happen. The simple truth is a lady with a very low drive will have a hard time finding a partner/spouse she wants otherwise.
> 
> How many guys would accept an offer of "hey, I want to get to know you better but you need to know I could not care less about having sex"?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Agreed. I just am surprised how she would want a committed relationship with someone for whom she has so little physical attraction.

We are talking early 40s here. Young enough to have a good sex drive, but old enough to know better regarding relationships.



FeministInPink said:


> Dude, yes, you should bail on this one. If she isn't itching to jump your bones, you should jump ship.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sure some would, but how many?

To say it better, it is hard enough to find someone with whom you are compatible outside of sex. If the lady has a really low drive, or hangup, etc, she has a really small pool of guys to work with on all that other stuff.

So, yeah, given that most people want to get married and have kids, there is a strong incentive to fake the sex thing.



uhtred said:


> Some would. There are quite a few women here who are with men who constantly turn them down for sex.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

DTO said:


> Agreed. I just am surprised how she would want a committed relationship with someone for whom she has so little physical attraction.
> 
> We are talking early 40s here. Young enough to have a good sex drive, but old enough to know better regarding relationships.




Are you certain that she isn't just holding back to avoid looking slvtty? FIP throws around the slvt shaming talk from time to time, so I'll assume there are women who are afraid of this label.

The other question would be does she have responsive desire, or a preference to be sexually submissive?

If it were me, I'd be hopping on her and finding out. It's one thing to believe a potential partner has a certain sexual orientation, and another completely to push sexual situations and observe the reaction.

Personally, I was just mentioning to my w last night how cool it is that we still find each other very sexy - after 30+ years together. But I had to learn about responsive desire from TAM and change my approach to significantly change our sex life (for the better)


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Are you certain that she isn't just holding back to avoid looking slvtty? *FIP throws around the slvt shaming talk from time to time, so I'll assume there are women who are afraid of this label.*
> 
> The other question would be does she have responsive desire, or a preference to be sexually submissive?
> 
> ...


Are you referring to me? I know I've talked about slvt shaming before. It's possible that she's concerned about that. But the impression that I got from @DTO's initial post is that she isn't into it at all, or looking forward to it at all. If a woman is holding back to avoid looking slvtty, there's still usually an indication that she's into the making out, the heavy petting, all the stuff a couple does before leaping into full-blown sex. "Holding back" and "not interested in sex" look and act pretty different.

I suppose it's possible that she's waiting to get a commitment from DTO for an LTR before she's willing to have sex with him, but I expect that she would have told him that, if that were the case. "Listen, I'm into you on a physical level, but I don't have sex unless it's within the context of a committed LTR, just so you know." There's still a physical aspect to the relationship, and the guy doesn't doubt if she's attracted to him, and he knows the reason why they're not physically intimate (even if he doesn't understand it or agree with it).

But I get the impression that she's showing no signs pf physical attraction to DTO at all. And it's easy to show you're physically attracted to another person without actually being physical, or with intry-level physical contact. If he's not feeling it, I highly doubt it's there.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@FeministInPink but the OP doesn't state that she has rejected sex or done starfish sex, so I wonder if HE isn't also being passive here.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @FeministInPink but the OP doesn't state that she has rejected sex or done starfish sex, so I wonder if HE isn't also being passive here.


Ah, I see what you're saying now. I understood the initial post as that they hadn't yet consumated, and she didn't show any signs of looking forward to doing so eventually. But I see your perspective and agree that further info might be helpful.

ETA: and given our different interpretations, holding back would have different definitions in each scenario.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

DTO said:


> So, then, the lady can have sex or not as she sees fit, but the guy has to be the selfless rock of stability and love?
> 
> That is unrealistic, as least over more than the short term. Disappointment and resentment are just as real for men as for women. Both have to meet their partner's needs consistently or it falls apart.


Agreed. As well, if you read the GFL post you quoted, the implication is that the guy is in the wrong (i.e. The hardest and most important first step is to recognize where your behavior has deteriorated in a way that has a desire killing effect on your wife.). Honestly, this just sets up for disappointment and resentment. Both people have a responsibility in maintaining their sexual relationship. GFLs posts shifts the responsibility solely to the guy.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

FIP has it exactly right. She is fine with innocent cuddling and such. Anything more I start and it seems like she will passively accept it but that's all. She initiates nothing beyond innocent stuff.

But beyond that, it is her demeanor which concerns me. Overall bashfulness. The chemistry where you look at someone and KNOW you want each other is absent.

We've spoken at length recently about how I view "us" and my concerns. For someone who wants an LTR, her response was heavy on excuses (none regarding me) and light on ownership of the issue.

At the end of the day, it does not matter whether the issue is attraction to me or serious hangups. I really do not see myself either in a semi-celibate LTR or with a starfish. Nor do I see myself waiting to see if she figures it out.



FeministInPink said:


> Are you referring to me? I know I've talked about slvt shaming before. It's possible that she's concerned about that. But the impression that I got from @DTO's initial post is that she isn't into it at all, or looking forward to it at all. If a woman is holding back to avoid looking slvtty, there's still usually an indication that she's into the making out, the heavy petting, all the stuff a couple does before leaping into full-blown sex. "Holding back" and "not interested in sex" look and act pretty different.
> 
> I suppose it's possible that she's waiting to get a commitment from DTO for an LTR before she's willing to have sex with him, but I expect that she would have told him that, if that were the case. "Listen, I'm into you on a physical level, but I don't have sex unless it's within the context of a committed LTR, just so you know." There's still a physical aspect to the relationship, and the guy doesn't doubt if she's attracted to him, and he knows the reason why they're not physically intimate (even if he doesn't understand it or agree with it).
> 
> But I get the impression that she's showing no signs pf physical attraction to DTO at all. And it's easy to show you're physically attracted to another person without actually being physical, or with intry-level physical contact. If he's not feeling it, I highly doubt it's there.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

DTO said:


> FIP has it exactly right. She is fine with innocent cuddling and such. Anything more I start and it seems like she will passively accept it but that's all. She initiates nothing beyond innocent stuff.
> 
> But beyond that, it is her demeanor which concerns me. Overall bashfulness. The chemistry where you look at someone and KNOW you want each other is absent.
> 
> ...


Yeah, she's not into you. Time to move on. (See my signature.)


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Most of this post goes against things women say here on TAM, but a lot of it rings true to me.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> ...



Wow, an eye opener but after 17+ years of marriage, I completely agree.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

FeministInPink said:


> Yeah, she's not into you. Time to move on. (See my signature.)


Agreed, and like I said I knew this needed to be done as soon as I read this thread. That was one main point.

The other point was to note that she has no visible physical attraction for me yet is pursuing an LTR with me.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

DTO said:


> The other point was to note that she has no visible physical attraction for me yet is pursuing an LTR with me.


This kind of makes me wonder what is wrong with her, that she would pursue someone for an LTR whom she doesn't actually want in a physical sense. That is completely illogical. 


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

DTO said:


> Agreed, and like I said I knew this needed to be done as soon as I read this thread. That was one main point.
> 
> 
> 
> The other point was to note that she has no visible physical attraction for me yet is pursuing an LTR with me.




Ok Sparky, time to get WAAAAAY more specific here.

1-have you specifically talked about having sex, what sex means to her, what she likes, what she expects with regard to sex in a LTR?

2-you say she's bashful - is it possible you're completely misreading her thoughts and intentions?

Look - if you guys aren't sexually comparable then definitely talk about it SPECIFICALLY with her, listen, and make a good decision. I'm pretty sure you don't need help with that.

BUT... if she's into you enough for a LTR, she could just have been brought up a good Catholic girl and is VERY uncomfortable expressing her sexuality - alone - without seeing your leadership here.

Your "bashful" comment leads me to believe this could be possible.

Some gentle, kind, considerate people - who are GREAT partners - can be awkward expressing sexuality at first. It in no way means they will always be bashful or uncomfortable with that.

My W never ever thinks about sex on her own. FOO issues and maybe her hormones and makeup. But she's a fantastic partner, mother, wife, daughter, niece... She loves, loves, loves standalone bj's - literally her favorite thing. She's very accommodating and we have very frequent sex which I enjoy immensely. Like daily and I'm in my 50's. It isn't porn sex and it isn't stripper poles and costumes. So that goes along with her attitudes.

All I'm saying is you know nothing about what she thinks or will do sexually if you haven't specifically talked about it in a way that makes her safe to talk.

She could absolutely be the wrong person for you and non-sexual... but as a HD person looking for expressions of sexuality that you are familiar with, you MAY be missing her sexuality. That's all. Good luck 


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

FeministInPink said:


> This kind of makes me wonder what is wrong with her, that she would pursue someone for an LTR whom she doesn't actually want in a physical sense. That is completely illogical.


I do understand the motivation. Not being into sex does not mean wants to be single. So you go out and try to find what you want.

My "wow" moment is she knows I AM into sex and still harbors hope.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

DTO said:


> I do understand the motivation. Not being into sex does not mean wants to be single. So you go out and try to find what you want.
> 
> My "wow" moment is she knows I AM into sex and still harbors hope.


The take-away here is that some women seem to think that sex is just a "nice to have" for guys that they can live without.

If, like most guys, sex isn't just a "nice to have", then it's incumbent upon the man to make this clear and a condition of the relationship (assuming of course that the man not doing anything to make his partner not want sex with him).

Women exist who have little or no spontaneous desire but are willing to give responsive desire a try if they know how important it is to their partner. If that isn't good enough, then you'll have to fight with all the other guys over the women who have spontaneous desire after the honeymoon phase wears off.

I was reading a woman's site where they were discussing losing their libido while breastfeeding. While most of the women seemed to understand that the husband's needs were important, a significant number had the attitude of "he can take care of his own needs" (which is especially problematic when one considers that there's no guarantee that her libido will return) . You want to avoid LTRs with people who can dismiss their partner's needs so casually (assuming that the needs were made known).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Thank you for your input. We did have a couple of long talks two weeks ago. And those talks followed a couple of attempts (initiated by me) to set an intimacy tone, during which she seemed less than enthusiastic.

I made it clear that I was attracted to her and saw potential. But I also talked about how I felt about those encounters. Her expectation is that there should be some closeness after three months but never said she wanted me in that manner.

I told her that I felt some "chemistry" was essential to have an LTR. And, I noted I don't expect the sex to be good right off the bat. I know it takes work to get there, but that must be some foundational level of desire upon which to build. That concept (where a base level of desire is a prerequisite to an LTR) annoyed her.

She did mention FOO issues (upbringing, not abuse).

The deciding moment was yesterday as I was talking to a good IRL friend about this. I realized that she, knowing her lack of warmth towards my advances was the obstacle to an LTR, has not moved to bridge the gap.

If after all that conversation and knowing my interest level, she can't muster a simple "I'm looking forward to seeing you again" or something, I'm friend zoning her. I will note that we talk and text frequently.



TheTruthHurts said:


> Ok Sparky, time to get WAAAAAY more specific here.
> 
> 1-have you specifically talked about having sex, what sex means to her, what she likes, what she expects with regard to sex in a LTR?
> 
> ...


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