# Feminism is Great



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

There is a great deal of dogmatic nonsense that comes out as feminism. However, the major problem is often not enough feminism.

There is a lot to be said for the pendulum swinging too far. An example was discussed previously that while cheating is clearly wrong, denying your partner any sexual release in any form for a year or two as you do not feel like making an effort it OK - a kick-back from when the idea you could rape your wife was considered absurd.

However, I have seen Denmark (more progressive) and the UK and I can report big differences. Feminism has gone further in Denmark and it is great. There will now follow huge generalisations: I have undertaken manual work with mixed groups in both countries. In Denmark, the women are aware they are weaker. They do not try to make up for this by deciding they are organisers, they just do what they can and leave the heavy stuff to the strongest (who happen to be male). I have not seen the situation of taking over as organiser, standing back and complaining how women would be far better. This is because they have much higher self-assurance.

In bed, the idea that you can just lie there and leave it all up to the man is less present in Denmark. That is because a woman would not expect the man to just lie there. Equality is having an effect.

I have been in relationships where Danish women have come back later and described how the problems in the relationship had been their fault. Even to the extent where I have argued that I was more to blame that they say. That acceptance of responsibility takes confidence and self-assurance. It is not all bad.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Agree that Denmark rocks.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Great post! Thanks for posting it Mr The Other!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

lol Why would a woman just lie there?

Oh yea, cause she's not into it. The sex, that is. I mean, at least in my experience with myself and a woman.

Sounds like Denmark is just more mature and self aware. Women are held accountable for THEIR ACTIONS as much as men.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

meh, not impressed. Right to vote, sure, right to the same wage for the same job, sure. The basic freedoms, sure. Most of the rest is hatred of men and masculinity.

have teen age boys today and you see it in spades.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> meh, not impressed. Right to vote, sure, right to the same wage for the same job, sure. The basic freedoms, sure. Most of the rest is hatred of men and masculinity.
> 
> have teen age boys today and you see it in spades.


This hits on the true problem with our country versus others. I think the OP's post is great. The more countries you see doing it "right", the more chances are that those countries can influence our own.

Feminism, at it's root (fight for true and full equality) is an AWESOME concept. Frankly speaking, under that definition, the vast majority of society would be feminists.

The problem is there are large enough groups, on the female side of hating male domination and they want to pull the pendulum to their side, and on the male side, wanting to fight that group every step of the way, and in turn keeping the powershift on the male side...both of whom are wrong.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Problem is, in America, people are not held accountable for their actions and there is 0 (or little) consequences behind it.

We see this all around our society. From politicians to business owners.....it's almost like a race of "who can do more messed up things and still get away with it".

Look at the schools, can someone PLEASE tell me why the most popular kids are complete idiots/crappy students and smart kids aka nerds are "losers"? 

Back in Europe, losers were the ones that did poorly in school.....and those that did well, were the most popular kids.

Even laws, most people/companies go by "if you don't get caught, it's ok". How patriotic....

So we end up with society of wrong doers, thinking they can't do any wrong. And we should if there is no consequences and rewards for doing so.

Just to give you an example, would a business man be successful if they had morals? Or if they were 100% honest and not lie? No, you see those people fail miserably. Meanwhile, those that rip people off and scam them.....succeed.

There is almost NO incentive to be good/have good morals. It simply doesn't pay.

As George Carlin used to say, if you have a nation of arrogant, selfish and greedy people.....you will end up with politicians exactly like that.

Listen to the genius:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

From what I've seen, it's true.

It applies to both genders.....and especially married women with a license "to do whatever" and be just fine at the other end of the tunnel. Breaking up family is no big deal, it's simply getting rid of the "cancer aka man" but everything else remains the same. Kids still around and she can go on doing her own thing.

Unfortunately, everyone and their mother forgets one little thing. 

Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. In the end, many of these people find out the effect it has on the kids and learn the consequences the hard way.

By that time, it's too late.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I'm a white male living in North America. As far as I'm concerned I've got the world by the tail. There is nothing I can't do if I choose to do it. I hear people complaining about "the pendulum swinging too far" on issues of sex and issues of race. If it has I haven't seen it.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

look at college admissions. Purely female to male ratio. If that trend continues, we will regret it


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Mr The Other said:


> In bed, the idea that you can just lie there and leave it all up to the man is less present in Denmark. That is because a woman would not expect the man to just lie there.


Isn't this also largely due to women in Europe not generally being raised to believe sex is dirty and bad? This kind of Puritan thing we have going in North America seems to give rise to a lot of sexual dysfunction.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> look at college admissions. Purely female to male ratio. If that trend continues, we will regret it


Why?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Isn't this also largely due to women in Europe not generally being raised to believe sex is dirty and bad? This kind of Puritan thing we have going in North America seems to give rise to a lot of sexual dysfunction.


On one end we do (religion/schools), and other we do the opposite (media/society)

You can't even figure out what we actually do. hehe

Kids SHOULD be confused.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

most major universities are now ~60% female. Job prospects are a function of education and the door is shut on a large fraction of men. The pendulum went too far.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

All I know is I'm glad I'm a man. I particularly like my part in the procreation process. 

If I believed what I read here guys all want virgins who f like porn stars. Not sure how they rationalize the logic on that one. It seems a woman either enjoys her sexuality and gets called a **** or becomes repressed and gets call frigid. And we wonder why so many of them struggle with sex.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

M.G.
If you had teenage or younger boys, you would see this problem for what it really is....


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> most major universities are now ~60% female. Job prospects are a function of education and the door is shut on a large fraction of men. The pendulum went too far.


I don't understand why you think larger numbers of women attending universities closes doors of emloyment to men. Women are a larger portion of the population in general so wouldn't it make sense that more women than men attend university? Not to mention the trades which these days pay pretty well are predominantly male dominated which would come out of the pool of men that would attend university.

In the world I live in the vast majority of positions of power belong to white males. I know I've received every job I've ever interviewed for. Coincidentally the people interviewing me looked very similar to me.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> M.G.
> If you had teenage or younger boys, you would see this problem for what it really is....


I have a 20 year old son who oddly enough is attending university. I have absolutely no concerns about his future. I know he will either succeed or fail on his own merit. I'm not worried about hoardes of women running amok trying prevent him from succeeding in life.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

* College admissions is a zero sum game. There are only so many seats
* At teenage years, the population is 50/50 or very close. Men die younger on average, so there are more living women.
* If you want to believe that men aren't harmed by this, have at it, but don't say I didn't tell you so....


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I don't understand why you think larger numbers of women attending universities closes doors of emloyment to men. Women are a larger portion of the population in general so wouldn't it make sense that more women than men attend university? Not to mention the trades which these days pay pretty well are predominantly male dominated which would come out of the pool of men that would attend university.
> 
> *In the world I live in the vast majority of positions of power belong to white males. I know I've received every job I've ever interviewed for. Coincidentally the people interviewing me looked very similar to me.*


Every time I get a look at Congress or go to a work conference or internal company meeting, I am reminded of exactly how few of the people there look like me, and how many look like white males. That has not changed much since 1989 when I graduated and started working. Some change, yes, but not much at all.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> * College admissions is a zero sum game. There are only so many seats


So.... what? They should continue to be held in reserve for men only rather than be open to the best applicant as was previously the case?


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

I remember reading that around 2020 new BA's and BS's will be 2/3 women and 1/3 men nationally. Women are not interested in men that make less than them (for marriage at least, casual sex/relationships are different)

As for Denmark, the Muslims are having way more children than the feminists so in a few decades there will be a lot less feminists and a lot more submissive housewives.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

ntamph said:


> As for Denmark, the Muslims are having way more children than the feminists so in a few decades there will be a lot less feminists and a lot more submissive housewives.


You gotta love the self defeating reality of modern liberalism.
The Ouroboros should be the universal symbol of the left wing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> M.G.
> If you had teenage or younger boys, you would see this problem for what it really is....


I have two sons... they are in their mid 20's now. Neither of them have these kinds of complaints. They have done what they have chosen to do and nothing has stood in their way.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> There is a great deal of dogmatic nonsense that comes out as feminism. However, the major problem is often not enough feminism.
> 
> There is a lot to be said for the pendulum swinging too far. An example was discussed previously that while cheating is clearly wrong, denying your partner any sexual release in any form for a year or two as you do not feel like making an effort it OK - a kick-back from when the idea you could rape your wife was considered absurd.
> 
> ...


This post is little more than a bunch of assumptions based on what? A bit of personal experiences and rumor?

You have no clue how many Danish women "just lay there" vs American women. So you had relationships with some Danish women who took all the blame. Some American women do the same thing.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of this point by point as it's not worth the effort really. Maybe we could compare Danish men to American men using gross generalizations, etc. LOL


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> You have no clue how many Danish women "just lay there" vs American women. So you had relationships with some Danish women who took all the blame. Some American women do the same thing.


A bunch of wooden shoe wearing hussies.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

The best Danish is Cheese Danish.

Apple Danish is pretty good too.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Q&A: Researcher Finds That Women Have Higher IQs Than Men - Businessweek

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-...s-school-all-ages-subjects-study-finds-n92531 (girls do better than boys in school at all ages and all subjects)

From the article above: "The fact that females generally perform better than their male counterparts throughout what is essentially mandatory schooling in most countries seems to be a well-kept secret, considering how little attention it has received as a global phenomenon," Susan Voyer concluded.


Why on earth would anyone question why more women are in college than men? Gee, I wonder if it is because there used to be an agenda telling everyone that men were smarter than women, especially in math and science which was actually never true. But since most of the crusty aged people who used to say untrue things like that are dying off, women can now actually just have higher IQ's and better test scores and go to college more often without worrying if it ticks off a man or not.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> look at college admissions. Purely female to male ratio. If that trend continues, we will regret it


You know why? Because the girls actually want to study. As society, we did great job of convincing girls they can achieve, although still they have to work harder to show it. 

last June I was on graduation ceremony of my kindergartener - they were showing pics of each of the kid with the sign what they want to be when they grow up. For boys it was mostly football player and racecar driver, while I had counted around ten girls wanted to be doctors. just year earlier they wanted to be princesses. 
Maybe now we need to start convicing boys again, that they can be achievers too?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Q&A: Researcher Finds That Women Have Higher IQs Than Men - Businessweek
> 
> Girls Do Better Than Boys in School at All Ages and Subjects, Study Finds - NBC News (girls do better than boys in school at all ages and all subjects)
> 
> ...


Sadly, the number of women going into science, engineering, and math is still way too low. 

Girls in school are still socialized to believe that these are not fields for females. My son is working on his MS in Physics. He's brought this up before. His feeling about it is that he wishes there were more women in these fields, after all he's like to find a wife who has similar interests to his. But there are just very few there.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> You know why? Because the girls actually want to study. As society, we did great job of convincing girls they can achieve, although still they have to work harder to show it.
> 
> last June I was on graduation ceremony of my kindergartener - they were showing pics of each of the kid with the sign what they want to be when they grow up. For boys it was mostly football player and racecar driver, while I had counted around ten girls wanted to be doctors. just year earlier they wanted to be princesses.
> Maybe now we need to start convicing boys again, that they can be achievers too?


About 22% of our population has Bachelor degrees. That's more than double what it was in the 1950's. 

Basically most men and women never get a degree. And that's fine because there are lots of good jobs/careers that do not require one. Though with more and more jobs needing some sort of high tech training, our schools need to get better at providing that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

That's changing quickly as there is a huge outreach to young women to get into STEM fields.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> That's changing quickly as there is a huge outreach to young women to get into STEM fields.


I just wonder why it has not already changed in the 18-25 year old group today. Seems like we've been told it's changing for some time now. But it has yet to happen.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I have two sons... they are in their mid 20's now. Neither of them have these kinds of complaints. They have done what they have chosen to do and nothing has stood in their way.





EleGirl said:


> Sadly, the number of women going into science, engineering, and math is still way too low.
> 
> Girls in school are still socialized to believe that these are not fields for females. My son is working on his MS in Physics. He's brought this up before. His feeling about it is that he wishes there were more women in these fields, after all he's like to find a wife who has similar interests to his. But there are just very few there.


Effort and personal expectations overcome a lot. Companies may like diversity but profits trump diversity. In other words, if your sons are too good to pass up then that's why they have no problems.

Regarding too few women in tech fields. I've noticed it too but I until women become interested it's not going to change.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ntamph said:


> I remember reading that around 2020 new BA's and BS's will be 2/3 women and 1/3 men nationally. Women are not interested in men that make less than them (for marriage at least, casual sex/relationships are different)
> 
> As for Denmark, the Muslims are having way more children than the feminists so in a few decades there will be a lot less feminists and a lot more submissive housewives.


Western women will not drop out of school, stop taking BC and go back almost 200 yrs in social evolution. In fact, it is equally likely that better educated and economically independent women will be attracted to men who have the time to devote to their family.

This may be more evolutionarily positive than the previous system, who knows. But, whatever happens, men and women will have sex, children will come out of the union and both parents will care, love and support them. 

If men were interested in women for matting purposes only, they would not fall in love, desire affection, need their long term partner and continue to desire her for decades. Even now - the D rate among better educated women is lower than the population average.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Effort and personal expectations overcome a lot. Companies may like diversity but profits trump diversity. In other words, if your sons are too good to pass up then that's why they have no problems.


I agree, often the biggest obstacle a person faces is themselves. 



Thundarr said:


> Regarding too few women in tech fields. I've noticed it too but I until women become interested it's not going to change.


Yea, more has to be done to encourage this. From what I understand, until about junior high girls show a lot of interest in science, math, etc. But then when they hit their teens they are reluctant to show interest because it's not considered feminine. And at that age boys become very important.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> This post is little more than a bunch of assumptions based on what? A bit of personal experiences and rumor?
> 
> You have no clue how many Danish women "just lay there" vs American women. So you had relationships with some Danish women who took all the blame. Some American women do the same thing.
> 
> I'm not going to respond to the rest of this point by point as it's not worth the effort really. Maybe we could compare Danish men to American men using gross generalizations, etc. LOL


It is a gross generalization. It was intended as a defense of feminism in reply to a thread that seemed anti-feminist. That it is no more than personal impression is, I hope, clear. I will say that I am impressed by the self-confidence of women here compared to other coutries I have lived in and it is something that convinced me that feminism has a great role to play still in much of the western world.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Q&A: Researcher Finds That Women Have Higher IQs Than Men - Businessweek
> 
> Girls Do Better Than Boys in School at All Ages and Subjects, Study Finds - NBC News (girls do better than boys in school at all ages and all subjects)
> 
> ...


That men are mysteriously better at science and engineering is a fallacy is certainly clear in Russia (were it not already clearly nonsense), where women are considered better at these fields and in our Russian office a male engineer is something of a novelty.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> In fact, it is equally likely that better educated and economically independent women will be attracted to men who have the time to devote to their family.


Sure, if they make as much or more than their wives. I'm talking about a world where 2/3 of professional degree holders (MD, JD) are women. That will leave few men who are eligible marriage prospects for the high achieving women.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

*It's us against the world baby*. Now If I can figure out who we are and who they are. When I do figure it out I know they are dangerous and they are an organized 'us killing' machine (whoever us is). 

Sigh, I just wish we had some labels so we could put someone in a box and know who they are. Yea that would be nice.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ntamph said:


> Sure, if they make as much or more than their wives. I'm talking about a world where 2/3 of professional degree holders (MD, JD) are women. That will leave few men who are eligible marriage prospects for the high achieving women.


You assume that a degree is needed for a person to earn a high income. I know many men who earn very good incomes without a college education. This sort of career field tends to be more open to men than women.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ntamph said:


> Sure, if they make as much or more than their wives. I'm talking about a world where 2/3 of professional degree holders (MD, JD) are women. That will leave few men who are eligible marriage prospects for the high achieving women.


That's my point. High achieving women will marry tradesman, truck drivers, electricians, master craftsmen. You don't need a college degree to be a man or to be good marriage material or learned or smart. You need goals that you accomplish and a sense of direction and purpose. There is nothing wrong with these men. 

Most of the men in my family are in the construction business. None of them finished college. They had journeyman training, not easy. They rose through the ranks through hard work and excelling.

If you knew men like these, you would have no doubt that a JD, or an MD or executive would not jump at the chance to marry them. They are not formally educated but they are smart, interested in life and are real. The culture is family oriented. They make good strong family men.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> You assume that a degree is needed for a person to earn a high income. I know many men who earn very good incomes without a college education. This sort of career field tends to be more open to men than women.


Men always follow the money. By the time women arrive on the scene, the glory days of a particular line of work is long past. I'm not making this stuff up, look for yourself. Going a million dollars into debt to get an MD or a PhD is a questionable investment. It takes a decade or more to pay it off and the monthly payments are frightening. Men got that about 5 years ago, stopped applying and moved on. It will take woman another 10 to get it too. 

The net income of an MD is actually not that much more than a beginning journeyman electrician or plumber. School for these trades does not cost anywhere near a million, in fact in most get paid while they learn the trade. How smart is that? Men are the bellwether of the most lucrative careers. Technical fields are the way to go today. You need talent and knowledge of several programing languages and operating systems. You don't need college. Many employers pay the expenses for training in various operation systems. How many woman are in these fields? 

I hope in time women will respect the unique role in reproduction and care-taking and stop trying to run away from it (fugitively). We can also use the talent God gave us. Its being what we are and using the full scope of our abilities. We will triumph over what appears to be due to patriarchy because it is not the only problem. There is no dichotomy between being a parent and having a career. That true for men and women. Neither men nor woman can have it all.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> High achieving women will marry tradesman, truck drivers, electricians, master craftsmen.


Female doctors and attorneys marrying truck drivers and electricians????????????? What????????


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ntamph said:


> Female doctors and attorneys marrying truck drivers and electricians????????????? What????????


It happens. I know a lot of female MD's, attorneys, engineers, etc. Many are married to men who are in the trades. Their husbands very often earn as much as they do.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> The net income of an MD is actually not that much more than a beginning journeyman electrician or plumber.


I'm not sure about plumber wages, but I'm quite familiar with electrician wages. Around here they start out about $40K and head for $75K at the master level. Of course they get overtime unlike professionals working for others, so they can turn that to more than $100K and push $130K if they put in many hours.

GP docs around here start out at $125K and head for $200K+. 

Now you do have to compare that the doc is not only deep in debt when they start, they are also in their early 30's before they start making money. In the meantime a tradesman has been pulling in money for more than a decade.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> That's changing quickly as there is a huge outreach to young women to get into STEM fields.


I'm involved in part of that outreach. My second (a girl) is going into engineering. But I'd say it's a HUGE stretch to think that we're going to see parity anytime soon in the US. If you look at the hard engineering subjects (nuclear, chemical or electrical), you'll find a 8:1 ratio still. That's up from a 20:1 ratio when I was in school.

A bigger trend is that NOBODY wants to go into the STEM fields. There are open slots at US universities in most of the STEM fields, with a reduction in graduates in spite of a larger population.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

:::with a certain measure of sarcasm:::
Now if the men will just accept the roles in life that best suit them , ie. foot ball and guitar playing.

MN

OK on the subject of trades I'm a cabinet maker and as a trade we are not well paid. On the other hand the women who have worked with me in this have mostly been excellent. Regardless of the statistical trend of women being less able to visualize 3 dimensional problems.

MN


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> It happens. I know a lot of female MD's, attorneys, engineers, etc. Many are married to men who are in the trades. Their husbands very often earn as much as they do.


My husband has a blue collar job, his co-worker is married to an Attorney.. they have 2 boys... her Uncle is the JUDGE.... he better stay on his best behavior!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I have a colleague who is a dentist and married to a detective, and a friend who is an MD and married to an iron worker. The female dean of a dental school is married to an unsuccessful writer. 

It's very common and no one takes any notice of who these women married. People are not as snobby as you would assume. Besides, it's not socially acceptable among a group of people who are in the helping professions.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I'm reminded of a south park theme 'they took r jobsss'. Guys, put on your boxers instead of your little girl's panties. No one takes my job and no one prevents me from providing for my wife and kids. Now if you live somewhere other than the US then ignore my comment because It might not apply. But if you live in one of the states then we've got plenty of victims already. There's no need to be part of the victim pool. It not hard to do well here.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> You know why? Because the girls actually want to study. As society, we did great job of convincing girls they can achieve, although still they have to work harder to show it.
> 
> last June I was on graduation ceremony of my kindergartener - they were showing pics of each of the kid with the sign what they want to be when they grow up. For boys it was mostly football player and racecar driver, while I had counted around ten girls wanted to be doctors. just year earlier they wanted to be princesses.
> Maybe now we need to start convicing boys again, that they can be achievers too?


I dismiss your premise that girls study harder. No data to back that up, just more random man hate.

And, if you are right, and girls do study harder, why is that? In my opinion that is something where our current school system and culture.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

ntamph said:


> I remember reading that around 2020 new BA's and BS's will be 2/3 women and 1/3 men nationally. Women are not interested in men that make less than them (for marriage at least, casual sex/relationships are different)
> 
> .


So if this is even remotely true, do any of the feminists on this thread want do discuss how this is not harming men in general? 

Education for women is probably the best thing feminism did to raise the financial value of women today. If this stat is correct, then men will be having a lower standard of living than women. It is a leading indicator of success, so that by 2050, women will have most of the good jobs. Again, zero sum game rigged against the men.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> :::with a certain measure of sarcasm:::
> Now if the men will just accept the roles in life that best suit them , ie. foot ball and guitar playing.
> 
> MN
> ...


What many of the women on here are saying is that men of the 21st century need to accept that they will be the hired labor of women. Do the trades, the hard, dirty work, but on average have less opportunity due to education....


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

No Child Left Behind = All Boys Left BehindÂ*|Â*Kari Henley

If the huff post says boys are screwed, it is probably true. Google some links if you want...

Jon Bradley: Are we leaving our boys behind? | MenTeach - Recruiting male teachers for education

https://www.google.com/search?q=are...tartIndex=&startPage=1&safe=active&gws_rd=ssl


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I still don't understand the fear of women having equal opportunities to men. I simply don't believe the vast majority of feminists hate men. Their objective to obtain equal opportunities is not so they can turn around and oppress them they simply want equal opportunities. 

If my read is correct woman want men who are strong and proud. The last thing they want to do is turn them into a bunch of meek little mice. 

I have to wonder if women were properly represented in the highest levels of government and on the boards of directors of the biggest companies if we would find ourselves in the economic situation we find ourselves. I don't think they could do worse than the current encumbents. 

I believe our best opportunity to prosper in this world is to bring as many different points of view as possible to the table, discuss them like adults and act on those that make the most sense.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I still don't understand the fear of women having equal opportunities to men. I simply don't believe the vast majority of feminists hate men. Their objective to obtain equal opportunities is not so they can turn around and oppress them they simply want equal opportunities.
> 
> If my read is correct woman want men who are strong and proud. The last thing they want to do is turn them into a bunch of meek little mice.
> 
> ...


I have nothing against equal opportunity for women, you have something against equal opportunity for men. Based on education, you can easily claim that feminism is supporting suppression of men, read the links.

The leadig indicators suggest that women will start to be heavily reprented in BODs, government, etc, unless they choose to not be career heavy.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I still don't understand the fear of women having equal opportunities to men...





naiveonedave said:


> feminism is supporting suppression of men, read the links...


There's validity on both side of this but what scares me isn't women. It's the ease at which a government can transfer wealth from one generation to another and that affects men and women alike.

I suppose it's off topic but between inflation and the stock market drop, the baby boomers (I'm not one) learned over night that they didn't have what they thought they had or what they had been told they had. A million in a 401 not only became substantially less but with inflation, the number becomes even less valuable. It was easy to poke the economy and make this happen IMO.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Lila said:


> I still don't understand what your position is on all of this. Are you suggesting the only way for men to feel they are being treated equally is to bar women from getting a higher education or from running for government offices? :scratchhead:


Not at all. My position is that in education (and other areas, but mainly education) men are now discriminated against and this is not fair to men and is going to have many unintended negative consequences. Education is a leading indicator. Meaning we won't see the effects (financial, position power, etc.) until later down the line. Basically education held women back prior to the 70s. Now they are surpassing men in education by quite a large margin. I expect this to translate to jobs, money and power in the coming generations, to the point that men will be surpressed. And it will even be worse for Hispanic and African American men.

I also totally disagree with the posters who basically are telling men to suck it up and take lesser jobs, just because.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Lila said:


> I don't personally see this trend of discrimination (and I have a son) but maybe I'm missing something. How are men being discriminated against?


Not to sound harsh, but did you read any of the links? Or read the stats about 60% of college students are female?

This is a big issue for boys. School in the US is set up very well for girls to succeed and not for boys to succeed. And colleges are proving this. The impact on individual boys may not be that bad, but it is bad for the gender.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I have to wonder if women were properly represented in the highest levels of government and on the boards of directors of the biggest companies if we would find ourselves in the economic situation we find ourselves. I don't think they could do worse than the current incumbents.


If they were they'd simply become more mercurial Machiavellian ruthless cutthroat bastards like anyone else who rises to the top in ANY and EVERY field of endeavor. They wouldn't bring the "women's PoV" to anything. All you have to see is the women who already are overachievers. They're bastards just like the men.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Lila said:


> I did in fact read all of the links you posted, none of which described discrimination against men/boys. The only "discriminatory" language (if you want to call it that) I found was from the No Child Left Behind article that said "_In fact, a "dirty little secret" at many colleges and universities is the unspoken "new gender gap." Boys are being admitted to colleges with lesser qualifications than girls to keep the gender balance_."
> 
> What I did gather from the articles is that boys need strong male role models at home and school, and the current U.S. public school education system is failing miserably (nothing new).


the problem with schools is it is failing boys way worse than it is failing girls. It is hidden discrimmination. If you believe what one poster wrote a few days ago, I forget the year this happens, but 2/3 of BS degrees will go to women. That is discrimmination, not difference in ability.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Runs like Dog said:


> If they were they'd simply become more mercurial Machiavellian ruthless cutthroat bastards like anyone else who rises to the top in ANY and EVERY field of endeavor. They wouldn't bring the "women's PoV" to anything. All you have to see is the women who already are overachievers. They're bastards just like the men.


something like absolute power corrupts absolutely?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

This is how I think it is discrimmination.....

Back in the day, school had 1+ hour of recess per day, allowed boys to let off steam, so they could concentrate in school. Schools got rid of this, but why?

If you read up on it, boys need the physical exercise for their development. Most don't get it, due to no recess, less gym, latch key kids who don't go out and play after school, too many vidoe games, etc. Did anyone plan this, probably not, but basically school has changed a lot and it hurts the development of boys. Yet there is no real push to do anything about it. That lack of push is due to feminism, imo, and maybe not even intentional, but with the powers that be having to support feminism, mens and boys suffer by the default attitudes. This is similar to the huge support for breast cancer awareness, and no similar 'cause' for men's health. Nothing wrong with supporting breast cancer, but there should be a male equivalent.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

also, I think that most of the discrimination against women historically was not some group of men plotting to do it, mostly just ignorance and stupidity.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

All I see is a cycle of the sexes pitted against each other.. less and less men want to marry today (and I can't even blame them).... 

So all young women , in reality, really NEED to make it on their own . (I've been shamed for suggesting I cared more that our sons got a college education over our daughter).... Chivalry is DEAD ...the Traditional lifestyle is going the way of the dinosaur....

The sorry reality is...there is not enough good jobs for those seek them.. Getting a degree these days guarantees nothing but being strapped with college debt for yrs to come..

I can see both sides of the issue... I don't have the answers...how can any of us with the Gender war raging full throttle. ..people just don't treat each other with care & respect anymore.. everyone touts "Independence".. it's not about building a life together anymore and making it ~ we're more worried who is going to screw who. 

I worry about our 5 sons though -still more than our daughter.. as I've seen it in real life, women dumping a guy cause he didn't earn enough... but rarely have I seen men treat women like this.. I still think the heart of a good man wants to protect and provide, some even like to feel needed in this way.. My Husband is one of those & I won't put him down for it.. 

I hope this never goes away completely...... 

But I speak from a Traditional marriage set up... I'm one of the dinosaurs.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Good post SA. That is one of the outcomes of feminism, chivalry died and traditional roles in marriage started to die. Not sure why this happened, but the timing coincides and it is not good for our society. You used need a Ying for your Yang, now it is all about 'me'.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> This is how I think it is discrimmination.....
> 
> Back in the day, school had 1+ hour of recess per day, allowed boys to let off steam, so they could concentrate in school. Schools got rid of this, but why?
> 
> If you read up on it, boys need the physical exercise for their development. Most don't get it, due to no recess, less gym, latch key kids who don't go out and play after school, too many vidoe games, etc. Did anyone plan this, probably not, but basically school has changed a lot and it hurts the development of boys. Yet there is no real push to do anything about it. That lack of push is due to feminism, imo, and maybe not even intentional, but with the powers that be having to support feminism, mens and boys suffer by the default attitudes. This is similar to the huge support for breast cancer awareness, and no similar 'cause' for men's health. Nothing wrong with supporting breast cancer, but there should be a male equivalent.


Interesting. I've never thought much about it. Along the same lines I get frustrated that people don't understand the gravity team sports has with boys. Maybe it does with girls too but I don't think as much. A lot of my team mates growing up were from single parent homes and they really soaked up the male role model of the coaches.  Most of these coaches care about the kids but they were rough on us too. Not to mention the competition, comradery, and discipline are things that last a lifetime.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> All I see is a cycle of the sexes pitted against each other..


I agree. It's particularly disappointing when one gender or the other wants to claim a higher IQ for themselves..


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> Good post SA. That is one of the outcomes of feminism, chivalry died and traditional roles in marriage started to die. Not sure why this happened, but the timing coincides and it is not good for our society. You used need a Ying for your Yang, now it is all about 'me'.


Speak for yourself. I am married to a wonderful man who has exactly no need for traditional roles in marriage. People who can adapt, think and grow succeed. People who can't blame things like "society". I am as happy as a clam working outside of the home, and kicking butt and taking names. He is happy as a clam staying home and pursuing a new business. So what? It works for us. We are so not all about "me".

I think the notion that divorce is the problem is silly. In the "good old days" marriage was not necessarily any better. You just couldn't get out of it. I cannot imagine why anyone would think being stuck for their entire lifetime would be a good thing. We only get one shot at this life thing.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Speak for yourself. I am married to a wonderful man who has exactly no need for traditional roles in marriage. People who can adapt, think and grow succeed. People who can't blame things like "society". I am as happy as a clam working outside of the home, and kicking butt and taking names. He is happy as a clam staying home and pursuing a new business. So what? It works for us. We are so not all about "me".
> 
> I think the notion that divorce is the problem is silly. In the "good old days" marriage was not necessarily any better. You just couldn't get out of it. I cannot imagine why anyone would think being stuck for their entire lifetime would be a good thing. We only get one shot at this life thing.


all well and good for you, the average person turning 20 this year, meh. I see it in spades with teenagers today. They don't have role models to aspire to, the hook up culture, etc. Call SA and I old fashioned, but it is what it is....


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Lila said:


> I don't personally see this trend of discrimination (and I have a son) but maybe I'm missing something. How are men being discriminated against?


I don't see this as a giant plot, but rather an unintended consequence of some of the changes in schooling.

A huge one is the increase in grading based on class participation and homework vs. solely basing grades on test scores. Younger boys just don't have the patience for piles of homework nor will they behave sitting for hours in a class. On test OTOH, boys beat girls at ever level through college. 

I don't get caught up in the gender war though. I've got one girl definitely going into the STEM carrier path and I don't foresee she'll have any trouble (straight A's, including in advanced science and math classes). My boy indicates he wants to also, but is still young so I don't know that he'll stay with it. Both won't have a problem getting in though, because there are openings for the taking in any hard subjects in the US.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> Good post SA. That is one of the outcomes of feminism, chivalry died and traditional roles in marriage started to die. Not sure why this happened, but the timing coincides and it is not good for our society. You used need a Ying for your Yang, now it is all about 'me'.


Chivalry is still alive. Men (and women!) will still give up their seats for the elderly on buses and trains. Men (and women!) will hold the doors open for the people behind them. Men still pay for dinners (and sometimes women pick up the check as well.)

In fact- if you include both men and women doing chivalrous acts, defined as "the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak" you might conclude that it's actually increased. 

There are still traditional roles for marriages for people who want them. The difference is that there are "non-traditional" roles for people who want them as well.

"Society is going to hell" and "the new generations are all about ME" (or have something in general wrong with them) is the cry of every older generation for at least the last 100 years. It is nothing new. It certainly did not start with Feminism (and it won't end there, either.)


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> Not to sound harsh, but did you read any of the links? Or read the stats about 60% of college students are female.


But they don't mention _what_ those degrees are in. 

Go look at what the degrees are in and you'll figure out why women still earn less than men.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> I don't see this as a giant plot, but rather an unintended consequence of some of the changes in schooling.
> 
> *A huge one is the increase in grading based on class participation and homework vs. solely basing grades on test scores. * Younger boys just don't have the patience for piles of homework nor will they behave sitting for hours in a class. On test OTOH, boys beat girls at ever level through college.
> 
> I don't get caught up in the gender war though. I've got one girl definitely going into the STEM carrier path and I don't foresee she'll have any trouble (straight A's, including in advanced science and math classes). My boy indicates he wants to also, but is still young so I don't know that he'll stay with it. Both won't have a problem getting in though, because there are openings for the taking in any hard subjects in the US.


Is that true? I remember class participation and completion of homework absolutely being part of the grading when I was in elementary and high school (and I'm almost 47). Sometimes homework was graded; other times you just got a check mark for having completed the assignment. You got a big fat zero if you didn't do it. Class participation was a thing, too. Teachers would call on the kids with their hands raised, and then they'd start calling on the ones who never raised their hands (often because they hadn't done the homework and didn't know the answers).

The only place grades were based solely on tests and written papers was college.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

norajane said:


> Is that true? I remember class participation and completion of homework absolutely being part of the grading when I was in elementary and high school (and I'm almost 47). Sometimes homework was graded; other times you just got a check mark for having completed the assignment. You got a big fat zero if you didn't do it. Class participation was a thing, too. Teachers would call on the kids with their hands raised, and then they'd start calling on the ones who never raised their hands (often because they hadn't done the homework and didn't know the answers).
> 
> The only place grades were based solely on tests and written papers was college.


In my experience, homework grades counted, but you had less than 1 hour per night in K-12, and it counted a lot less than tests. College was pretty much tests, with some homework and some participation in some classes. 

In my kids, I see a lot of their grades being homework and participation. Less focus on tests.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> I don't see this as a giant plot, but rather an unintended consequence of some of the changes in schooling.
> 
> A huge one is the increase in grading based on class participation and homework vs. solely basing grades on test scores. Younger boys just don't have the patience for piles of homework nor will they behave sitting for hours in a class. On test OTOH, boys beat girls at ever level through college.
> 
> I don't get caught up in the gender war though. I've got one girl definitely going into the STEM carrier path and I don't foresee she'll have any trouble (straight A's, including in advanced science and math classes). My boy indicates he wants to also, but is still young so I don't know that he'll stay with it. Both won't have a problem getting in though, because there are openings for the taking in any hard subjects in the US.


:iagree:

There is no need to bring a gender war into the pertinent discussion of failing schools. PE is being reduced or eliminated as well as art classes, music classes. In my area parents have to pay a fee for their kids to play sports, in addition to paying for uniforms, equipment, etc. This is not even bringing up the ever-increasing student:teacher ratio.

I do think that there can be improvements made for boys in schools, as well as girls. However, politically I don't think anyone will get traction by trying to make a strategy against "Feminists and their Evil Discrimination Against Boys." 

"Public Schools: Improvements for Boys and Girls in 2014 and onward" is a much stronger, inclusive, and likely successful strategy. It's also more accurate IMO.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> But they don't mention _what_ those degrees are in.
> 
> Go look at what the degrees are in and you'll figure out why women still earn less than men.


Good post.

That is part of the so called gender pay gap. If you look at what women and men make in the same job, it is very close, but if you look at bulk pay of men vs. women you get the 'war on women' $0.7 for women for each $1 for men.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I look at gender the same way I look at race, religion or sexual orientation.

There is more variation from person to person, those things that make us unique, that have nothing to do with our gender, our race, our religion or our sexual orientation than there are that do. I don't deny there are statistical differences among any of those groups that you can flag. But the moment you stop treating each person as an individual, then you're denying that person's individual humanity.

I'm just not big on any of the 'us' vs. 'them' arguments.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

RoseAglow said:


> :iagree:
> 
> There is no need to bring a gender war into the pertinent discussion of failing schools. PE is being reduced or eliminated as well as art classes, music classes. In my area parents have to pay a fee for their kids to play sports, in addition to paying for uniforms, equipment, etc. This is not even bringing up the ever-increasing student:teacher ratio.
> 
> ...


It may not get traction, but the problem for boys is so unique and so obvious, I am not sure that a 'make it better for everyone' will actually get results. I would prefer they target it as "how our current system is failing boys" and leave it at that. I don't think it is an intentional outcome of feminism, just an unintended consequence of policies aimed at helping girls in school (primarily) and secondly too little time for exercise.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

naiveonedave said:


> most major universities are now ~60% female. Job prospects are a function of education and the door is shut on a large fraction of men. The pendulum went too far.


If men don't try hard in high school or decide not to go to college, why is equal treatment of women at fault. :scratchhead:


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> All I see is a cycle of the sexes pitted against each other..


This is such a shame, and I really don't think it is necessary. I don't see it at all IRL, even with the SAHs I don't see it. Maybe it's just my own blinders.



> less and less men want to marry today (and I can't even blame them)....


Fewer women want to get married as well. Of those that do get married, most are better educated and have more money than those who don't; I think this is more of a class issue than a gender one. And regardless of marital status, fewer adults are having kids. Interesting times.



> So all young women , in reality, really NEED to make it on their own . (I've been shamed for suggesting I cared more that our sons got a college education over our daughter)....


I agree that women as well as men are better off having a skill or an education so that they can support themselves if needed. I am sorry you were shamed. If it helps, while a degree is a good start it is neither necessary nor sufficient to ensure a good job.



> Chivalry is DEAD ...the Traditional lifestyle is going the way of the dinosaur....


Well, I don't think that chivalry is dead, I think it's changed. And I believe that there will always be men who want a SAHM and there will certainly be women who want to be one. If your daughter wishes to follow in your footsteps and has your discerning tastes in men, I'll bet she will be successful.



> The sorry reality is...there is not enough good jobs for those seek them.. Getting a degree these days guarantees nothing but being strapped with college debt for yrs to come..


The expense of education is completely out of hand. My DH doesn't have a college degree; he spent just as many years in his apprenticeship as I spent in college and he has no debt. 

I am looking ahead at the job scene with some interest. It is certainly a challenge! We are coming off of the worst recession since the Great Depression, into a world which is increasingly becoming more digital and global. I really can't guess at what kind of jobs will be available for my son when he is an adult. 



> I can see both sides of the issue... I don't have the answers...how can any of us with the Gender war raging full throttle. ..people just don't treat each other with care & respect anymore.. everyone touts "Independence".. it's not about building a life together anymore and making it ~ we're more worried who is going to screw who.


I think young kids (e.g. early 30s and under) are more about Independence now, and having a longer time to get to marriage and kids, if they want it. 

But in my particular age group of older 30s/40s in real life, I don't see it. I don't see a gender war. I have friends with a SAHD and I am friends with some SAHMs as well. I mostly see "we", but probably because in my particular group there are families. Self-selecting bias probably also comes into play, life is just too short to deal with nonsense.



> I worry about our 5 sons though -still more than our daughter.. as I've seen it in real life, women dumping a guy cause he didn't earn enough... but rarely have I seen men treat women like this.. I still think the heart of a good man wants to protect and provide, some even like to feel needed in this way.. My Husband is one of those & I won't put him down for it..
> 
> I hope this never goes away completely......


I don't think it will go away, SA. I think there will always be men who want a SAHM, and who find comfort, happiness, and pride in providing and protecting for their family. 

(I think the difference is that women can now also find comfort, happiness, and pride in financially providing for their family, if they want to.)

I, too, have seen good men tossed away for another wealthier man. It is very sad and does not speak well for the woman.

Unfortunately, I have also seen good women thrown aside for younger, prettier, thinner women. UGH.

There is always a risk, for men and women. No one has it any easier than the over, all things considered. I believe the gender war is often just noise pollution and it certainly does not resolve a dang thing.



> But I speak from a Traditional marriage set up... I'm one of the dinosaurs.


You are SO not a dinosaur, you lovely creature! You're too lively for that! You and your DH are one in a million though, in many ways. I would bet the farm that your kids will do well from the relationship you and your DH have modeled for them.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> It may not get traction, but the problem for boys is so unique and so obvious, I am not sure that a 'make it better for everyone' will actually get results. I would prefer they target it as "how our current system is failing boys" and leave it at that. I don't think it is an intentional outcome of feminism, just an unintended consequence of policies aimed at helping girls in school (primarily) and secondly too little time for exercise.


Ah, earlier I thought you indicated that this was discrimination of boys at the hands of feminism; my apologies if I misinterpreted or misread.

I'd agree that the system is failing boys and it is also failing girls. It is failing everyone in different ways. (And there have been improvements for everyone in other ways as well, such as improved technology in most schools. Just want to put some balance in.)

Girls need exercise, too. Obesity is up for boys and girls. 

I would 100% behind a policy that would target improvements just for boys, like shorter class time. (Ages ago when I was in school we had more classes through out the day for shorter periods of time, for example.) 

I just would want to ensure that the view is broad and inclusive.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

ebp123 said:


> If men don't try hard in high school or decide not to go to college, why is equal treatment of women at fault. :scratchhead:


why did you blame the men? that is like telling an 1800s woman why coiuldn't she support her family.

It is not that men aren't trying, the game is now rigged against them from K-12. that is all.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

RoseAglow said:


> Ah, earlier I thought you indicated that this was discrimination of boys at the hands of feminism; my apologies if I misinterpreted or misread.
> 
> I'd agree that the system is failing boys and it is also failing girls. It is failing everyone in different ways. (And there have been improvements for everyone in other ways as well, such as improved technology in most schools. Just want to put some balance in.)
> 
> ...


I am in total agreement with what you wrote.

I blame the issue with boys education, not on feminism directly, but as an unintended consequence of trying to improve the education of girls (which I think is a huge success of feminism). 

No prob misunderstanding, I probably wrote it poorly.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

I did a quick google check to try to see what is out there for men and education. I looked specifically for college. 

I found this as a starting point:
Why Men Are Falling Behind in Higher Ed »

Very interesting. Among the findings:

-Currently the approx. enrollment overall in US colleges/university is 45-55 split, 45 being male. This varies across colleges, with most Ivy Leagues being 50-50 and tech-based schools having more men.

-Only 44 percent of applicants to college are male (so it looks like most men who apply get in. Not sure how likely that is.)

-Approx 90% of men and 96% of women say that would like to get a college education (I find this hard to believe, unless they are asking adults and not HS students- the link in the article to that statistic goes to a page that is no longer available.)

-Although men say that they want to go to college, fewer seek information, and men are more easily put off by the cost. More men are also gravitating to jobs that have on-the-job training (such as the trades.)

-More women than men get financial help from their parents to attend school.

The article goes on to provide a few suggestions on what can be done to encourage more men to go to college, but they all seem to boil down to: *Discuss college early and often as a possibility for the boys and tailor HS as much as possible to get the boy into college*. I will certainly be doing this with our son!


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> The article goes on to provide a few suggestions on what can be done to encourage more men to go to college, but they all seem to boil down to: *Discuss college early and often as a possibility for the boys and tailor HS as much as possible to get the boy into college*. I will certainly be doing this with our son!


That was what got me to college. Most people in my neighborhood did not actually go to college. But my parents started drilling into my head that college was my ticket to a better life than they had from the start - they were constantly talking about it when I was a kid, and why grades were important for getting into a good college.

Now, that didn't help in terms of why I should want to LEARN things, which I see as being different than why I should get good grades and go to college. But I was lucky and had a few teachers in grade school and high school that showed me what learning was for and how that could go hand-in-hand with getting good grades.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

RoseAglow said:


> -Currently the approx. enrollment overall in US colleges/university is 45-55 split, 45 being male.
> 
> -snip-
> 
> -Only 44 percent of applicants to college are male (so it looks like most men who apply get in. Not sure how likely that is.)


It means that the admittance to rejection ratio is 2% higher for men.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Hearing some of you talk makes me realize just how isolated I am to a degree. It was simply presumed that I would go to college. I'm the third generation in my family to do so. My wife's family has even a deeper lineage than I do on both sides. 

That applied to my kids too. It was simply the presumption that they would be perusing some form of a professional degree because "that's what everyone does."


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> something like absolute power corrupts absolutely?


'how do you think a man like me got to be a man like me'. Even Aristophanes understood that.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> I also totally disagree with the posters who basically are telling men to suck it up and take lesser jobs, just because.


Who said this? 

Your gender takes risk that has led to new discoveries in the past and will continue to do so in the future. That is the reason for our complex, information dense, hyper-communicative and fast-paced lives. That is the reason for the need for 100% participation if we are to meet the demands of progress. 

Parity is needed between the genders now more than ever. We can't afford to waste resources on slackers. More importantly, each person is so valuable that they must be safe to venture out of their home without being preyed upon. In evolutionary terms, the superfluous and predatory among us. They will be taken out of the gene pool by marginalization or losing their freedom to roam


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Larry just to give you a little more info.

I am a 3rd generation American of immigrant grandparents. My cousins and I are the first in our family to have more than a high school education. My grandfather came to the US with a 6th grade education. My parents generation finished HS. Their generation encouraged their children to go to college and pursue a career. 

My father was an electrician and my mother a homemaker, she never worked outside of the home. His father was a bricklayer and my grandmother never worked outside of the home. Her father was a baker and her mother never worked outside of her home. We had no tradition of higher education. The epitome of success for men was getting into a trade and for women, getting married and having children. 

We changed a great deal in 2 generations.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> I dismiss your premise that girls study harder. No data to back that up, just more random man hate.
> 
> And, if you are right, and girls do study harder, why is that? In my opinion that is something where our current school system and culture.


I suspect it is culture dependant, but I can recognise what she describes. Studying is not seen as macho. I also think that the raging libido of a teenage boy can be a serious distraction to getting anything done (it was for me).


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> I suspect it is culture dependant, but I can recognise what she describes. Studying is not seen as macho. I also think that the raging libido of a teenage boy can be a serious distraction to getting anything done (it was for me).


Even if you are correct, isn't it the job of the K-12 schools to help them figure this out? 

Prior to feminism, how many women went to college? It was predominantly men. Feminism did a great job in fixing that for women. Now men need some help here.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Who said this?
> 
> Your gender takes risk that has led to new discoveries in the past and will continue to do so in the future. That is the reason for our complex, information dense, hyper-communicative and fast-paced lives. That is the reason for the need for 100% participation if we are to meet the demands of progress.
> 
> Parity is needed between the genders now more than ever. We can't afford to waste resources on slackers. More importantly, each person is so valuable that they must be safe to venture out of their home without being preyed upon. In evolutionary terms, the superfluous and predatory among us. They will be taken out of the gene pool by marginalization or losing their freedom to roam



read pages 2-4, FW, ELegirl, WandaJ, Maritime, etc. EBP on page 6. If you don't see it, we can agree to disagree. Most of it is pure ignorace or misandry, imo.

I agree with your last paragraph and the data on education to me means we need to figure out how to make boys not into 'slackers'. Right now, education is stacked against boys, not totally, but on average. Why?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> read pages 2-4, FW, ELegirl, WandaJ, Maritime, etc. EBP on page 6. If you don't see it, we can agree to disagree. Most of it is pure ignorace or misandry, imo.
> 
> I agree with your last paragraph and the data on education to me means we need to figure out how to make boys not into 'slackers'. Right now, education is stacked against boys, not totally, but on average. Why?


You persist in misinterpreting to suit your agenda. There is nothing in my post that is hateful towards men or about educational disparity. Where did I say that the only slackers are men? Let me spell it out - slackers are women and men who don't fully participate by using the talents God gave them. Everyone needs to put their backs into it. 

Education is not stacked against boys, they elect to bow out and it is not a bad move. 

Let me explain why. Lets say a person pursues a PhD in philosophy or fine arts or history. If 70% of the university population are women, then a percentage of them are supporting these departments. There are not enough jobs in these fields to absorb these well educated women. Most end up waiting tables in Denny's. (Hyperbolic I know) 

The men who missed college may have been playing video games or delving into the workings of their computers or teaching themselves how to program or selling apps. They get the high salaried tech jobs in an industry that is growing and get the jump on the college graduates. It's risky but that's what men do, they are the risk takers. These men are hired on the basis of their ability to get results, not a degree in computers. 

Tell me who is better off, the well educated woman with a PhD or the man who avoided a bad investment? Higher education is not as sure a road to a success as it once was. Not all women flocking to college will have a successful career if they choose the wrong field. Men who avoid the high cost of an education that yields a poor return are actually better placed for success in our rapidly changing economy. 

Your anxiety is not well placed. You should worry about the men who do go to college. Some of them will graduate with overpriced and useless degrees.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm all for equal rights for broads


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> You persist in misinterpreting to suit your agenda. There is nothing in my post that is hateful towards men or about educational disparity. Where did I say that the only slackers are men? Let me spell it out - slackers are women and men who don't fully participate by using the talents God gave them. Everyone needs to put their backs into it.
> 
> Education is not stacked against boys, they elect to bow out and it is not a bad move.
> 
> ...


nope, men for whatever reason are being left behind by the educational establishment. THIS IS EXACTLY what feminism attacked in the 50's and 60's. 

My anxiety is well placed, imo, because I see it my kids peer group. My kids are fine, but many bright boys are being left behind. Education has changed significantly in the past 30-50 years and it is very anti-boy in its results. The numbers back it up. To think otherwise, is totally absurd. You and several other have made general rationalizations of how this is okay. I totally disagree with them. It is huring the STEM fields now, because not enough boys can get in.

I agree that useless degrees are useless, but we don't have many good options right now. Society places more percieved value on a BS degree working for $10/hr than they do on trades or manufacturing job that pays $30/hr. That is what is driving some of the poor choices.

I actually think women are the bigger losers by going to college because they get a much higher fraction of worthless degrees.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> My anxiety is well placed, imo, because I see it my kids peer group.* My kids are fine, but many bright boys are being left behind.* Education has changed significantly in the past 30-50 years and it is very anti-boy in its results.


Presumably, your kids' peer group are going to the same schools your kids are. Why do you think your kids are fine while others are not? If they're in the same school, wouldn't the parenting be the difference?


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

DoF said:


> Look at the schools, can someone PLEASE tell me why the most popular kids are complete idiots/crappy students and smart kids aka nerds are "losers"?


Our culture holds independence and rebellion in high regard. The kid acting against authority is very often going to be more popular than the kid who properly follows the rules.

We make heroes of people who break convention.



DoF said:


> Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. In the end, many of these people find out the effect it has on the kids and learn the consequences the hard way.


IMO, this is also a product of a culture that revers independence and often outright anti-social behavior. Don't care about anyone else, get yours.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> nope, men for whatever reason are being left behind by the educational establishment. THIS IS EXACTLY what feminism attacked in the 50's and 60's.
> 
> My anxiety is well placed, imo, because I see it my kids peer group. My kids are fine, but many bright boys are being left behind. Education has changed significantly in the past 30-50 years and it is very anti-boy in its results. The numbers back it up. To think otherwise, is totally absurd. You and several other have made general rationalizations of how this is okay. I totally disagree with them. It is huring the STEM fields now, because not enough boys can get in.
> 
> ...


How will more women in STEM fields be disadventageous? You echo the common fears of people facing great change. I believe the only sky that's falling is the one over your head.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Education is not stacked against boys, they elect to bow out and it is not a bad move.


I'm not an expert, so I don't want to be dogmatic. There are a number of books on this subject though and one that I found interesting was _The Problem with Boys' Education: Beyond the Backlash_ (2009)

I would also add that if overcoming disinterest, apathy, social conditioning and lack of confidence is a worthy cause with young girls (And we as a society have *most certainly* decided that it is...) then it comes across as callous at the very least to shrug our shoulders when boys experience these same problems albeit in different ways.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

NJ - partially because they have better genes, partially because the parents have pushed them (especially reading and math skills early on), partially luck.

The problem is the averages, so it is hard to understand how the bulk comes from looking a few individuals. 

I really don't know for sure why men are not succeeding, other than it starts in elementary and goes all the way to graduate school. I think a lot of it is explained by less recess and gym (which boys need more than girls do, again on average) and by teachers being much less tolerant of percieved anti-social behavior (loudness and movement) at K-5. The 1st hurts boys learning and the second gives them very negative thoughts about school. The second, I think, has come about becaue the noise and movement was shown to hurt girls in school. I am sure there are other reasons as well.

And anyone who has had 5-10 yo boys will tell you it is impossible to make them sit quietly for any length of time.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> How will more women in STEM frills be disadventageous? You echo the common fears of people facing great change. I believe the only sky that's falling is the one over your head.


I never said. at all. If I had daughters and they wanted to get a degree, I would be hard pressed to advise them to major in outside of STEM.

The problem is most women get worthless degrees and get worthless degrees in a higher % than men.

Your misandry is starting to make you look foolish.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> I never said. at all. If I had daughters and they wanted to get a degree, I would be hard pressed to advise them to major in outside of STEM.
> 
> The problem is most women get worthless degrees and get worthless degrees in a higher % than men.
> 
> Your misandry is starting to make you look foolish.


You make up the weirdest generalizations.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I'm not an expert, so I don't want to be dogmatic. There are a number of books on this subject though and one that I found interesting was _The Problem with Boys' Education: Beyond the Backlash_ (2009)
> 
> I would also add that if overcoming disinterest, apathy, social conditioning and lack of confidence is a worthy cause with young girls (And we as a society have *most certainly* decided that it is...) then it comes across as callous at the very least to shrug our shoulders when boys experience these same problems albeit in different ways.


I think the anti-boyification of USian schools is not intentional but very much present. We struggle with helping our son deal with it. I think one of the contributors is the fact that teaching is still an overwhelmingly female occupation. They intuit little girls, not so much little boys. 

I don't agree with another poster who says that free time to get the lead out is more important for boys that for girls. I think the drive to jam more into every day so that the district gets a good grade on the test is equally detrimental to both genders, potentially with different symptoms.

Lack of classroom management skill along with rampant helicopter and entitlement parenting all play a role as well. The schools and teachers spend so much time and effort on behavior management, with no real teeth to affect positive change for or with the students, it necessarily affect on task teaching time.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> You make up the weirdest generalizations.


i don't get it, I would tell girls to get STEM degrees. What is wierd about that. that is where the jobs are. And if you look at the degrees most women get, they don't pay. Not sure where you are coming from.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> i don't get it, I would tell girls to get STEM degrees. What is wierd about that. that is where the jobs are. And if you look at the degrees most women get, they don't pay. Not sure where you are coming from.


I would love it if you shared with me information about the degrees that most women get.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Not the nicest link:
Why Are Women Choosing Low-Paying College Majors? | Thoughts on Liberty
paying-college-majors
another version of the same written by feminists:
Wage gap myth exposed â€” by feminists - Society and Culture - AEI

If you google this topic, there is a lot of info there. 

My opinion, based on things I have seen with my own eyes, women make bad choices in college majors too frequently (i.e., too high a rate of majors that don't offer career opportunities worth getting a degree for.)


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RoseAglow... 1st I want to say.. you bring such BALANCE to this thread.. you have myself and the other admitted Older Fashioned guy naiveonedave liking your posts.. Hey, that speaks a lot ! :smthumbup:



RoseAglow said:


> *This is such a shame, and I really don't think it is necessary. I don't see it at all IRL, even with the SAHs I don't see it. Maybe it's just my own blinders.*


I was meaning more of what I read on HERE in many of these threads...really I don't mind the debate.. but it just seems so many don't* trust* each other any more... (but it makes sense after one has been deeply jaded & this is common place on TAM)...

In our real life...we are friends with far more couples who are married than not...similar to your experience also..



> *Fewer women want to get married as well. Of those that do get married, most are better educated and have more money than those who don't; I think this is more of a class issue than a gender one. And regardless of marital status, fewer adults are having kids. Interesting times*.


 Although I am big on statistics, I like reading them, I consider them many times in the "odds" game of life... we fall completely out of these ...We're not well educated (he got a certificate from a computer school, didn't do him a darn bit of good yrs ago)... not higher class.. but very PRO Marriage in every sense. 



> *Well, I don't think that chivalry is dead, I think it's changed. And I believe that there will always be men who want a SAHM and there will certainly be women who want to be one. If your daughter wishes to follow in your footsteps and has your discerning tastes in men, I'll bet she will be successful.*


 I'm afraid she might, if one could hear how she whines how much she hates school, especially reading (How is she MY daughter I ask!)..and wants to argue how worthless education is ... she does struggle in school some, better at Math (more like her dad)...unless she changes in the next 6 yrs...I can't see her wanting anything to do with college...

And true to form, she loves kids, helps with younger brother willingly.. on the ball, organized..cooks, quick to help around the house, loves to organize, she helps keep me in line sometimes...she is very lovable (unless you want to talk to her about science or read a book)... Her older brothers like to get on her about the importance of learning.. at this point, she is full of  ...it's not looking good...I've seen more attitude out of her on this over anything. 

As far as men, her prospects will be far less if she is not putting it out sexually (waiting for something lasting -better find 'em young!)...or goes to college....that just makes her low class and a prude.. according to society today.. .I'm just painting it as it is...no sugar coating. 



> *I don't think it will go away, SA. I think there will always be men who want a SAHM, and who find comfort, happiness, and pride in providing and protecting for their family. *


 the pool is growing smaller and will continue to do so -because of the social norms.. for instance.. We have teen boys who hang at our house, good friends of our sons.... one is like the top in his class.. he was raised by a working Mother & Father....Rich house, lives very comfortably.. 

We talk many times, a little debate, I can learn things off of him -he's a BRAIN /high honor , I joke he will be a CEO someday & our sons working for him !!....I asked him one day his thoughts/ feelings when he marry's someday, if he'd want or expect his wife to work.. he answered "well yeah"... and said he thinks it would just be "weird" if she DIDN'T....he didn't say this but it was very obvious to me >>> *BECAUSE THAT IS HOW HE WAS RAISED*.. now if you take all 3 of our older sons, they LIKE the idea of the woman staying home, even prefer it.. I have even asked them point blank if they look down on me for it..to be honest (they know they can say anything to me)...

3rd son almost got annoyed & asked me if I was crazy...then stood there & spoke of all the things I do...(I think I almost cried after I walked away .. just that he felt that strongly).... but this is because *THIS IS HOW THEY WERE RAISED*...and it's been GOOD..

(My Husband's Mom was a full time SAHM.. that's how he was raised.. makes sense he felt as he did also)....but the point being.. as 90% of women work today (??) with kids .... less & less of our sons will feel as this..plus the divorce rates & what they stand to loose.. combining all this!!!... I think I am just being realistic ...even if it sounds pessimistic . 



> *You are SO not a dinosaur, you lovely creature! You're too lively for that! You and your DH are one in a million though, in many ways. I would bet the farm that your kids will do well from the relationship you and your DH have modeled for them*.


 I like the "bet the farm " bit...Not betting my farm.. but I hope that's how it plays out..


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> Your misandry is starting to make you look foolish.


I've been told I look foolish more than once IRL. My only solace is that we all do at times. 

The misandry you see? You might want to look at yourself to find that. You seem to underestimate your(self) gender and lack respect for their(your) extraordinary abilities.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> I never said. at all. If I had daughters and they wanted to get a degree, I would be hard pressed to advise them to major in outside of STEM.
> .



LOL. I have two engineering degrees (BS, SM) and H has PhD in Physics and was an engineer for several years.

Esp daughters I told DON'T do engineering. I regret doing engineering. Medicine is the way to go. Way more flexible if you ever want to have children. The oldest daughter is an MD. Second daughter is a PA. Fourth daughter is in PA school. I went back and got an RN so I could actually find a job after raising children. 

H lost his engineering job in the economic downturn of '08. You do not EVER want to be an unemployed engineer in your 50's! Your competition includes loads of young freshly graduated green card applicants from around the world who will work relatively cheap.

Thank God his 1998 certification in Medical Physics was grandfathered in without continuing education and again- a medical field yielded a job.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> I've been told I look foolish more than once IRL. My only solace is that we all do at times.
> 
> The misandry you see? You might want to look at yourself to find that. You seem to underestimate your(self) gender and lack respect for their(your) extraordinary abilities.


everything you wrote in this thread was either pro-women or had a negative slant to men..

We are letting boys down in education, if you choose not to see it, that is your perrogative.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Blonde said:


> LOL. I have two engineering degrees (BS, SM) and H has PhD in Physics and was an engineer for several years.
> 
> Esp daughters I told DON'T do engineering. I regret doing engineering. Medicine is the way to go. Way more flexible if you ever want to have children. The oldest daughter is an MD. Second daughter is a PA. Fourth daughter is in PA school. I went back and got an RN so I could actually find a job after raising children.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with anything you wrote, other than engineers seem to have much better job prospects in the current economy than pretty much anyone else, except for maybe nurses. MDs are hard to quantify for me, as demand is growing fast due to the aging population. Anyone I know who was let go in the past 24 months w/an engineering degree had multiple job offers within weeks to 2 months.

I consider medicine to be a STEM field, so maybe we are in pretty close agreement?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> I consider medicine to be a STEM field, so maybe we are in pretty close agreement?


My younger boys (12 &15) like the computer and have techie aspirations. Three daughters have gone the medical direction. One daughter has a degree in economics (and a good consulting job). The youngest daughter (17) is leaning toward social work and doesn't want to hear about the low pay and high burnout and the advantages of medicine- wants to forge her own path different from her sisters...

I know tradesmen (builders, plumbers, electricians, concrete contractor, etc) who live very comfortable lives but look relatively poor on paper because of all the business write-offs. My BIL is a farmer who got medicaid and free lunches for his kids... owns 1000 acres, drives new vehicles, remodelled the house- brand new kitchen, built in swimming pool, snowmobiles, and on and on.... but he doesn't have a college degree and he's "poor" according to his income taxes. 

I do think school is harder on my boys, esp the 15yo. Has more to do with his interests, the repetition, the lack of positive feedback (he fills a paper with writing and gets a 6/10 and thinks "I failed, what is the use of even trying, I wasted my time") He does great in math and science but not english and spanish. My 28yos dropped out of college. He's a p/t building contractor married to a PA.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Blonde said:


> LOL. I have two engineering degrees (BS, SM) and H has PhD in Physics and was an engineer for several years.
> 
> Esp daughters I told DON'T do engineering. I regret doing engineering. Medicine is the way to go. Way more flexible if you ever want to have children. The oldest daughter is an MD. Second daughter is a PA. Fourth daughter is in PA school. I went back and got an RN so I could actually find a job after raising children.
> 
> ...


Unemployed engineer in your 50's is tough. It's was even tougher for him though because the whole job market was paralyzed. There's a similar dynamic in computer science fields and trust me there are some very sharp and capable kids coming out of college.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Blonde said:


> I know tradesmen (builders, plumbers, electricians, concrete contractor, etc) who live very comfortable lives but look relatively poor on paper because of all the business write-offs. My BIL is a farmer who got medicaid and free lunches for his kids... owns 1000 acres, drives new vehicles, remodelled the house- brand new kitchen, built in swimming pool, snowmobiles, and on and on.... but he doesn't have a college degree and he's "poor" according to his income taxes.


Off thread topic but; A buddy of mine writes loans (I don't know his title exactly). But he said it's the guys who make a lot but don't show a lot that get angry because he just can't get their loans approved. The income/dept ratio bites them.


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