# What is your marriage like after reconciliation?



## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

I'd like to hear from you who have reconciled with your cheating spouse. 

How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again? 

Have you ever restored your intimacy and trust?

Are you happy?

Is it better? (Or is that just a myth pushed by marriage saving websites and other initiatives?)

I'm very early on in R, not sure if we'll make it or not. I'd like to, but at the moment can't imagine being genuinely happy again, ever trusting him again, or feeling close. I hope it can be done.


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## zoemariewoodside (Apr 7, 2017)

I am going to be honest you will always have that feeling of doubt. You will trust them but there will always be that niggling feeling - depends if you can live with it or control it. Happiness is the key if you are happy stick with it, if you begin to question leave you are not happy and would be happier of you left. I commend you on sticking with it and trying to sort things out. xx

Sent from my SM-G357FZ using Tapatalk


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

It takes work...in both your parts. Reconciliation is hard and you have your days where that little bit of doubt creeps in. You need to figure out if you can actually handle having that feeling from time to time.
There are also going to be triggers that make you look backward instead of forward.
I think reconciliation depends on the situation. It's not for everyone.
He needs to do his part to relieve you of any doubtful feelings. Be 100% transparent, be willing to answer all your questions and answer honestly.
Communication is key. If something triggers you you have to tell him- have an open and honest conversation.
Personally I can say my marriage has its ups and downs. It is work everyday but I realized that I want him in my life , that I'm happier with him with all his faults than without him.



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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

I am 14 months from D-day. But I spent around 2 1/2 months in denial. So I'm just under a year from when I first seriously considered divorce. My husband and I still have a way to go. As I said in another post, I'm still not wearing my wedding ring. (I don't think that I will ever wear that one again.) 

*How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again? *
I've had to accept that my old marriage is dead. So there will never be an old normal. But I'd say that we reached a new "normal" around 7 or 8 months ago. I'm defining normal as a sense of stability and predictability - in our marriage, as well as my emotions, and about having a sense of "us" again. Rather than a sense of separateness. It was certainly not 100% of the time. But it has gotten more and more with time even since then. 

*Have you ever restored your intimacy and trust?*
Yes. I would say that my trust is more measured now. I see my husband in a far more real sense. I have a better grasp of his strengths and weaknesses. Physical intimacy is different to what it was before. Not worse, but different .. and sometimes better. (My husband did not have a sexual affair. The affair was physical but it stopped before it got to that point. So I may have had less to deal with than others here have.) 

*Are you happy?*
Yes, more often than not. I'm far more aware of what I actually have - which is also a reason for happiness. I still battle with old memories and triggers etc. - but they happen a lot less and the impact is reduced from what it was. 

*Is it better? (Or is that just a myth pushed by marriage saving websites and other initiatives?)*
Things are a lot better than they were after D-day. And in some ways, they are better than they were before the affair. We are far more honest with each other. Uncomfortably so, sometimes. Our relationship feels less romantic and idealised, but far more real. I miss the sense of lighthearted joy and laughter that I remember we used to have ... sometimes. I don't think that we won't ever get it back. But I know it will take a while. 

For me, reconciliation also allowed my husband and I to re-establish a connection that came after the affair. And through that get some healing and closure. Even if we had then chosen to separate, I think this would have been healthier (even if only for our children) than moving straight into separation. Trying to be nice to each other was hard then. It is much easier now. 

Aletta - you are very welcome to join a group of us on http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/374513-support-thread-bss-trying-reconciliation.html if you'd like.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I admire you for trying, I know that for me I could never trust again, nor could I ever have sex with a cheater again.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I had a very long R (several decades) before I got a divorce. It's a very hard road. It's smarter to never trust 100% again because now you know what they're capable of -- before you had your heart ripped out you didn't know what they could do. I believed in marriage for life at the time so I tried longer than I should have to make it work but eventually I got out. Some people R successfully and some don't. Since mine failed I don't really know what the answer is to making it work. I do know it takes a lot of time and effort and energy to create a new marriage. Years. And even then there can still be triggers that hurt as much as the moment you first found out. The only easy part about R is the decision to try it. The rest is tough. But some do succeed.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Openminded said:


> I had a very long R (several decades) before I got a divorce. It's a very hard road. It's smarter to never trust 100% again because now you know what they're capable of -- before you had your heart ripped out you didn't know what they could do. I believed in marriage for life at the time so I tried longer than I should have to make it work but eventually I got out. Some people R successfully and some don't. Since mine failed I don't really know what the answer is to making it work. I do know it takes a lot of time and effort and energy to create a new marriage. Years. And even then there can still be triggers that hurt as much as the moment you first found out. The only easy part about R is the decision to try it. The rest is tough. But some do succeed.


And you can always tell yourself you tried. You did the best you could do knowing what you knew at the time. You should be proud.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

That's very kind of you to say, Ynot. I do still feel like I failed though. I wanted so much for it to work and it just didn't.


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## KevinZX (Jul 1, 2017)

Aletta said:


> I'd like to hear from you who have reconciled with your cheating spouse.
> 
> How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again?
> 
> ...



It can never be easy when you want R, the love you had for the cheating spouse has changed and will never return to what it was, never. What you have to decide is what new love you can have for him if you can love him at all again, it will take time patience, perseverance, and more time, it may surprise you when you waken one morning and you decide that you feel different about him, and that can be built on, this is a lot of maybe's, don't expect anything too soon, he will have expectations and both of you will have to work hard to achieve anything, but with work comes rewards, a new foundation of a respect for you from him is a good start, mutual respect will follow if both of you want the same things, from there everything is possible, it's up to you both to work at it, but it will take time.

Love and Peace always

KevinZX


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Just so you know, there's really no such thing as _after_ reconciliation.

Something for you to keep in mind.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Thank you for your replies.

I have no illusions about what lies ahead. I already see that I will never trust him the way I used to and will be aware of his shortcomings that led him to have an affair. I can't imagine that the feelings I had for him will be the same. It will always be a tainted relationship, even if it becomes a good one. That is really painful to accept. The innocence is gone, the feeling that it is just us, and tha we are special. That is forever gone. I find this very hard.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

There will never be a normal again, you will never trust them 100% again, you will always have distrust. You may build something new, but you will never give them all of your heart again, and you would be a fool to also. The distrust element may actually end up in a divorce. IMO R is much more difficult than divorce.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

aine said:


> IMO R is much more difficult than divorce.


I think you are right.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It can take a couple of years to get there. 

By the way there may be a tendency to blame other subsequent problems on the affair, which may not be the case.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

I'd like to hear from you who have reconciled with your cheating spouse. 

Short Bio. Wife as in an LT-LD-EA for about a year or so. Totally disconnected from me. "Biggest mistake of her life". I was totally oblivious to it until D-Day. (Ten Years Ago)

How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again? 

Full recovery took 3.5 years

Have you ever restored your intimacy and trust?

The marriage was completely sexless for two years after D-Day. Our sexual intimacy today is frequent, passionate and satisfying. Trust took a long time to recover for me. I will on rare occasion trigger on something so I know it is not where it was preD-Day but I have no need to check up on her, check her phone....
We are transparent with each other in our devices, email accounts, financial accounts and social media.

Are you happy?

Very and happy that we put the work into the marriage and are still together as a couple and family.

Is it better? (Or is that just a myth pushed by marriage saving websites and other initiatives?)

In many ways it is better than it had ever been. The only regret we have is not addressing the issues years ago before it turned into a ****-storm


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Aletta said:


> How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again?
> 
> Have you ever restored your intimacy and trust?
> 
> Is it better?


8 years post DD, 7:30 pm, Aug 5, 2009.

Normal again? More like a "new" normal. Remember the previous marriage is over.

Trust? If there's complete honesty/truth on both sides some level of trust can be re-gained. 100%? dream on.

Better? As compared to being cheated... Yes.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

GusPolinski said:


> Just so you know, there's really no such thing as _after_ reconciliation.
> 
> Something for you to keep in mind.


What would you call it?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Aletta said:


> The innocence is gone


In fairness this is gone with anyone you are with moving forward. That is not necessarily a bad thing it's kind of like growing up in a way, you are a different person.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

sokillme said:


> In fairness this is gone with anyone you are with moving forward. That is not necessarily a bad thing it's kind of like growing up in a way, you are a different person.


I know what you mean. A more grown up relationship in a way. Eyes are wide open, no more wishful thinking and comforting illusions. For either of us. A relationship that is more real.

But what I mourn is the loss of innocence of just us, the belief that we were special for each other and all that. I find that hard.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Aletta said:


> I have no illusions about what lies ahead. I already see that I will never trust him the way I used to and will be aware of his shortcomings that led him to have an affair. I can't imagine that the feelings I had for him will be the same. It will always be a tainted relationship, even if it becomes a good one. That is really painful to accept. The innocence is gone, the feeling that it is just us, and tha we are special. That is forever gone. I find this very hard.


So why are you wasting your time? Where is the self respect in this reflection? You don't have to bother answering btw cause ANY reason you give is just a tired excuse.

There's really no valid reason to take back a cheater. You are letting fear and codependency control you. What makes you think this person is some irreplaceable special snowflake? 

If you had never married him do you think you would still be single? Of course not, you would of married someone else. Unfortunately, this loser got to you first.

So go find Mr. Someone else and you can sit down at dinner and tell him how the best thing that ever happened was this POS cheated on you.

Why? Because it gave you the reason you needed to dump his stupid ass, become single, and find the right man to whom you are conversing right now.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> So why are you wasting your time? Where is the self respect in this reflection? You don't have to bother answering btw cause ANY reason you give is just a tired excuse.
> 
> There's really no valid reason to take back a cheater. You are letting fear and codependency control you. What makes you think this person is some irreplaceable special snowflake?
> 
> ...



Hmmmmm?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

aine said:


> Hmmmmm?


So what's your question?


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## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

Amplexor said:


> I'd like to hear from you who have reconciled with your cheating spouse.
> 
> Short Bio. Wife as in an LT-LD-EA for about a year or so. Totally disconnected from me. "Biggest mistake of her life". I was totally oblivious to it until D-Day. (Ten Years Ago)
> 
> Sorry. Acronyms. Long term - emotional affair. LD???


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Long Term, Long Distance, Emotional Affair


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Aletta said:


> Thank you for your replies.
> 
> I have no illusions about what lies ahead. I already see that I will never trust him the way I used to and will be aware of his shortcomings that led him to have an affair. I can't imagine that the feelings I had for him will be the same. It will always be a tainted relationship, even if it becomes a good one. That is really painful to accept. The innocence is gone, the feeling that it is just us, and tha we are special. That is forever gone. I find this very hard.


These are still fresh feelings and feelings aren't truth. Romantic notions of blind trust might disappear but that doesn't mean you can't or won't trust him more than you really should have previously. And, what is "innocence"? What is the value in that? I'm not saying it's gonna work out for you or not, I don't know you or your husband and it definitely takes two people to make a reconciliation great but it can be better than before in so many ways. 

My wife and I have been recovered two decades. Our marriage is great and certainly better than anything we had previously. Together, in real life through our church ministry, we help other couples overcome infidelity {and other crises} and recover their marriages and families. You are still very early in the process {and at the stage where really the only primary concern and goal is to make sure "no contact for life" is fully implemented and observed}, but eventually, the biggest mistake recovering couples make is not learning and implementing a recovery plan. I am one that believes it's typically easier to extract a wayward husband from an affair and get him to be immediately apologetic and remorseful; but getting such wayward husband to undertake serious reconciliation efforts to the next level, over several years can be extremely difficult whereas wayward wives are more difficult to extract from affairs but often more willing than their male wayward counterparts to work to make the marriage great. They ALL don't mind rug-sweeping if you allow them too but, to me, making the marriage "extraordinary" is the only way to make the pain worth it. My point is, over the next few months, TOGETHER, with your wayward husband you both need to invest the time in learning about, adopting and implementing an infidelity recovery plan to make your marriage better than just "good" or else don't bother. Note this doesn't mean it will be decent, good or great anytime soon but it's a start and a good initial test of his seriousness and willingness to actually work towards such goal. If he refuses, you'll have your answer much sooner than others who waited years for their marriages to become worth it and they never did. 

Both divorce and reconciliation are paths, not events. Both paths are arduous with consequences, advantages, and disadvantages to each depending on the couple. I strongly believe that my wife and I {and our children and future geneations} are much better off for us having undertaken and accomplished a great reconciliation whereas divorce, in our instance would have been a complete waste and forever painful. My wife and I are better people, spouses, and parents, IN SPITE of her adultery {& all our sins} not because of them. That said, over the coming months you'll need to learn and educate yourself about erecting and implementing boundaries in your relationship because a quick divorce is much better in the long run than YEARS of limbo, regret and hatefulness in an empty unsatisfactory marriage followed, often, by an eventual divorce or death from the stress. 

Our church uses a more faith based infidelity reconciliation plan but many of the fundamentals involved appear to be directly derived from marriage builders. Here's a short video on the subject: 





alternate link to video: https://youtu.be/m8QKOUbosNo


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Aletta said:


> I know what you mean. A more grown up relationship in a way. Eyes are wide open, no more wishful thinking and comforting illusions. For either of us. A relationship that is more real.
> 
> But what I mourn is the loss of innocence of just us, the belief that we were special for each other and all that. I find that hard.


No I completely understand exactly what you mean when you talk about you and me against the world. I think what you are feeling is partly innocence but also the lost of romanticism with this man. Not having that would completely kill it for me, and it was one of the determining factors to end it when I was cheated on. I wasn't willing to sacrifice that in my life, that is part of the romantic notions I have about love. Let me tell you in my experience, you absolutely can still have THAT with someone else. I have that with my wife. I didn't think I could get that back with the person who cheated on me though. The lack of loyalty just killed my feelings for them and my romanticized notions of who THEY were, and who WE were as a couple. I ended up feeling like it was only me feeling that way the whole time. Had to be, because if they felt that way how could they do it. No matter what they professed to. So that sanctity that I experienced with them was really just one sided, and they were just telling me a story. When they tried to go back to the usual romanticized love that we had before it just felt hollow. What is love without loyalty. To me it's not much. Maybe they even loved me in their way, but it wasn't worth the same to me anymore.

Safety was another factor but you don't touch on that so I won't expand. 

Actually I have a theory that this romantic notion about love is one of the two things I think determine if you are the type of person who can R or not. Interestingly wrote about it here in another post last night beginning in paragraph 3. Yours feeling matches what I wrote about so well I wonder if my post triggered you. 

I'm sorry I know you were looking for someone to come on here an reinforce your relationship and help you with what you are already struggling with. The thing with this site is I am allowed to come on here even if it is not the kind of post that will reinforce your relationship. Still I should let it be know, as I am sure it will be pointed out, the person who cheated on me was not my wife but my first love, who I had just proposed to. Since we were not married ending it didn't have as much gravity. That also gives me a kind of cheat when answering your question as I really don't fit with your criteria. And I didn't try for very long, weeks, so maybe with enough work I could have gotten it back. I am sure you well get lots of posts about people that have though. There are a few on here who have seem to successfully R'ed. Not sure if they still have this feeling you are looking for though. 

Anyway I didn't intend on writing that and I was going to lay off. What I was talking about is really explained more in my next paragraph and was meant to be a positive for you. However what I was NOT saying as far as loss of innocence and what I don't want you to take from me is that you can't have that "you and me against the world feeling" with someone else. This is absolutely not true in my situation and frankly is probably the most hopeful thing I can say to you. Because of how strongly I feel about that, I can not let anything I say give you the opposite impression even if that means I am cheating your post. I would say you can have that still even more so, as if you find a faithful person it seems even more like a gift when you have been with one who wasn't. Then it's even greater having been through some really hard times and as far as I know she STILL has been faithful. 

Now the "as far as I know" is the loss of innocence I WAS talking about. You will never completely trust someone again. I don't mean worry that they are cheating or obsess about it, like constantly checking. I will admit though that every once in a while I check our phone bill. Anyway that is not what I mean. If you are healthy you will very very rarely have these feelings without reason and if they are unreasonable, then only in short passing thoughts like seconds. What I mean is after you have been through this you will always know that you can never be 100% sure that your next partner won't cheat. You will always know that you may be wrong and it could happen again. That is what I mean about growing up. There is always the realization that things end and you could be wrong or people may change. To me this is not necessarily a bad thing, it is a realistic thing. It also wise, it keeps you sharp. So in my mind, as far is your current partner is concerned, this thing I am talking about shouldn't be a determining factor as it will be gone forever no matter who you are with. Though one caveat knowing you could be wrong about someone, is different then knowing for sure the person you are with has had it in them to do it to YOU in the past. That is NOT the same at least in my mind. 

The best thing that came out of the cheating was that I know that I could survive anything. I survived moving on from my first love when at the time I was certain I was giving up and there would never be another love like that for me. Still I moved on anyway because staying wasn't the right choice, this was the hardest thing I have ever done, and I have had some hard things in my life before and after. So I assumed love was something I wouldn't have in my life again, not a love like that. That was brutal. The good news was I was wrong. So today I know if there is a next time I am strong enough to handle that. I also that there will be a light at the end of the tunnel. It will be OK if even the love with my wife doesn't work out. I will have joy again. Anyway I hope I explained it well for you. I am not trying to tell you what to do. I am just telling you the innocence thing is gone forever and that is OK. Just like if you decide to end this relationship even if you don't know it YOU will be OK as well. 

Anyway I am sure that is the longest answer to a question you didn't even ask.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Aletta said:


> What would you call it?


R never really ends IMO. Infidelity's a totally life-changing event and you don't go back to "before" so R is the new normal for as long as you're married. And, yes, it's much, much, much harder than divorce (I did both).


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Quality,

I have watched a number of Dr Bill's videos and am currently reading "His needs, her needs". My husband agrees that his approach is sound and we will follow his 5 step prgramme. 

Any suggestion on how to avoid rugsweeping?


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

In reality trust, or the loss thereof, is nothing more than a trailing indicator of the mischief someone is doing. Think of it as the check engine light on your vehicle. It only warns you after something is out of kilter.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Aletta said:


> Quality,
> 
> I have watched a number of Dr Bill's videos and am currently reading "His needs, her needs". My husband agrees that his approach is sound and we will follow his 5 step prgramme.
> 
> Any suggestion on how to avoid rugsweeping?



Learn and implement it all TOGETHER. This isn't purgatory, punishment or retribution. This is about fixing it {if that is what you both choose to do}. All boundaries are reciprocal recognizing that the only way YOU can have a great marriage is if, he too, gets a great marriage.

It may seem unfair at first. Like he got to go have some fun and then, as a reward, he gets a great marriage and loving wife in the long run but what he did is/was and will always be vulgar. He defiled himself. It really wasn't about you or the other woman {she could have been anyone}. Your husband is lost and you are his wife {for now}, his family and his home. His ultimate repentance for such is between him and God and be thankful it's him and not you that cheated and has to live with the memories of committing such an atrocious sin. The better your marriage becomes the easier it is for you to live with past while it becomes harder for him to live with {then you end up being the one to reassure them}. You see, I saved my wife from destroying herself and gave her a shot at redemption. I modeled Christ's love. I didn't call her names or attack her. I didn't whip her into shape. But I DID hold her accountable for her actions and; patiently, lead her to repentance and, only then, did I forgive her. While learning and working whatever plan you devise TOGETHER, you should individually read up on boundaries. While I remained willing to offer forgiveness upon full repentance {not something that happens overnight and often takes more than a year}, I wasn't required to remain in my marriage. I had a biblical justification to leave anytime I wanted and if she expected me to stay married to her she EVENTUALLY needed to earn it. I required our marriage to be great and loving {real love not the innocence romanticism type} or it wasn't worth it AND, by "earning it" I didn't mean I'd be asking her to do anything I wasn't willing to do myself. I was both willing to hold her accountable AND be held accountable myself. 

Don't know how religious you are but I feel some faith counselors push for forgiveness way too soon in recovery. You really can't fully forgive something that literally is still happening, hasn't been fully acknowledged yet and there's been no atonement for. He may not be cheating anymore {I hope} but he's still thinking and acting like a wayward spouse for sure. To repent is to "change your mind" about the entire sin|event. It's much more than just being sorry or expressing regret. By loving my wife I was able to lead her to full repentance, provide forgiveness and sanctify her. It's the exact opposite approach the world tells you take but it worked for us and many other successfully recovered couples we've helped. You just can't get respect by being disrespectful, he's NOT your child you can or should punish, nor can you achieve a loving marriage without offering love and hope. It hurts and is risky to go first and it'd be tremendously wonderful if your husband {as a man} would step up and take the lead here {which rarely happens but sometimes} but the risk and pain of rugsweeping, of waiting and hoping he'll fix it or the way you feel will just get better without taking any actions is much more painful in the long run for so many betrayed spouses. 

That said, there's a good chance your husband can't do it and can never become an extraordinary husband. That's OK. You're just in charge of your behavior and implementing boundaries upon how you expect your husband to behave towards you {and modeling those behaviors by implementing them yourself}. You hold each other accountable and if he fails {over a set period of time - like one year}, you've got your answer and can proceed to divorce and the next relationship knowing you did your best to save it and offered forgiveness with a willing heart. You'll also have better relationship skills in place for such future relationships having undergone this attempted process {so it wasn't a complete waste of time}.

Read up, individually, and together, about what it means to hold each other accountable. It's not about controlling him, punishing him or making each other miserable. It's about demanding he be a better husband, father, and person {and him doing the same FOR you} such that you appreciate each other. In the short run that might feel like manipulation or control, which is why you have to stick to the behaviors for a long time {at least a year} to see if eventually, your feelings follow your actions. In other words, as you both behave like better spouses, parents, and persons, you'll come to FEEL like better spouses, parents and persons and finally appreciate having such accountability partner. 

Your husband is lucky to have you and offering him a willingness to forgive AND the gift of reconciliation isn't a small gesture. I hope he earns it but either way you will be OK.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

I did want to add ~~ I'm IN LOVE, romantically, with my wife. More than I ever was previously in our relationship.

It's not a "mature love" or as close as we can get to love ~ love, considering her past sins or mine.

It's a romantic hard fought, knight in shining armor, she's so hot kind of love that arose like a phoenix from the ashes of infidelity and depression. 

Infidelity or not, only about 20% of all marriages are good, loving relationships. A marriage that experienced infidelity is, necessarily, even less likely to make it in that top 20% bracket. Getting there, after infidelity, takes two spouses engaged in achieving that ultimate goal and an unrepentant wayward spouse is, necessarily, probably not cut out for the mission. However, 2nd and 3rd marriages with "someone else" are, necessarily, considering all the baggage on both sides, also are not largely likely to accomplish the mission either. 

So why not take your shot at reconciliation, just don't waste years "innocently" thinking your feelings will all of the sudden magically change all by themselves. Work towards being the best loving couple like you wish you had when you first got married and were naive. The "innocence" lost, the romantic notions that love isn't work and should just happen and this prince/princess will just love all of me forever, no matter what I say or do, isn't real. You didn't "LOSE" it, you just recognize it's falsity now. Innocence was really ignorance and ignorance wasn't bliss {just a cozy selfish self-soothing delusion}. It's entitlement too. That we somehow DESERVE to be loved unconditionally. Nobody ever promised me a rose garden. Live is hard sometimes and if my wife's affair is the worst thing that ever happens to me in my life, I've lived a pretty remarkable life. I counted my blessings instead of lamenting my teenage "innocent" notions of how marriage was supposed to be. I had NO IDEA ~ which is why I ~ WE ~ set out to learn. 

I don't control the future but I am 100% certain that my wife isn't cheating on me today or considering cheating on me ever again and that faith/trust is based in the absolute reality of how we love one another in thought and deed today and every day versus some idealistic supernatural fairy tale of what love and marriage are supposed to be like.


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## theDrifter (Mar 20, 2017)

"Most marriages that experience an affair never do recover from it. Some may stay married, but they never really do recover from it." - William F. Harley Jr. 


This is why I could never advise a betrayed spouse to go the reconciliation route. The odds are against ever having a happy marriage again with the WS. Yes, there are marriages that may have successfully reconciled but they are not representative of the majority of marriages effected by infidelity.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> I did want to add ~~ I'm IN LOVE, romantically, with my wife. More than I ever was previously in our relationship.
> 
> It's not a "mature love" or as close as we can get to love ~ love, considering her past sins or mine.
> 
> ...


Everyone DESERVES a faithful spouse there is no entitlement about that. That IS exactly the promise remember? Expecting your spouse to be faithful is not self-delusion, which seems to be what you are saying here. 

Whatever you do OP don't make the decision out of fear. If you are afraid then work to get a place where you can make a decision out of strength.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I cheated 34 years ago and my husband had a revenge affair 2 years later....

The other day my husband made this post on a forum...

I will admit something I never have, in some ways our marriage is better due to infidelity. How can that be? We are more aware of each others feelings and we both try harder to please the other. We do not take each other for granted. We are both aware we could lose the other, these days even more as we approach the end of our lives. We know we are flawed and accept it. All marriages including those never touched by infidelity have issues. I am willing to bet we have a better marriage than the majority of couples who have never broken their vows.

Having said that, I would give anything to not be in the infidelity club.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

theDrifter said:


> "Most marriages that experience an affair never do recover from it. Some may stay married, but they never really do recover from it." - William F. Harley Jr.


I believe his point in saying that is not that it's not worth bothering to try, but rather, most fail because they fail to undertake and execute a plan like his to repair it. Most, unfortunately, appear to simply rugsweep and stay together.

Affairs are a pretty good indicator that the underlying marriage is unhappy and unhealthy and probably was for a long time; and, that at least one of the marital partners seriously lacks impulse control and aren't likely very good at marriage. If such couples simply "stays together", rug sweeps and never undertakes trying to learn how to have a better or great marriage and implement such tools, then it makes sense that MOST of those couples never really do recover from it. 

I just don't think Dr Harvely is being discouraging there. He's merely indicating the simple concept that if you're going to try, you better have a plan.




theDrifter said:


> This is why I could never advise a betrayed spouse to go the reconciliation route. The odds are against ever having a happy marriage again with the WS. Yes, there are marriages that may have successfully reconciled but they are not representative of the majority of marriages effected by infidelity.


Balls. If my wife and I can beat such odds and recover than anyone can. We weren't any different or special and my wife was a horrible typical wayward wife at the time. If there's hope for one, there's hope for all and telling people honestly how to go about TRYING to recover the right way is a lot more honest and helpful than lying to them and telling them it's hopeless {or "almost" hopeless so why bother}. As Harvely points out ~ they "TRY" anyway and very often "stay together" while failing to actually recover, so it's not like anyone is taking the advice to NOT reconcile because the statistics say it's hard. My wife wasn't a statistic and neither are the wayward spouses of every betrayed spouse that comes through places like this looking for hope and a solution. See if you tell them the odds are 5%, then all they hear is "so you're saying I have a chance" and if you lie and say their odds are 0%, they won't listen to you because you're a liar. 

Besides ~ I've helped 100's of betrayed spouses SUCCESSFULLY divorce as well and the ones that learn about boundaries and who TRY to reconcile AND actually "recover from it" {not rugsweep}, and then end up divorced anyway, never seem to regret the undertaking. It's, as if, extinguishing all doubt that reconciliation is possible alleviates any and all doubt and regret over the eventual outcome of divorce. There's a certain satisfaction to be found in certainty and KNOWING they gave it an honest effort. If a poster doesn't know what they want yet ~ nothing like some hard reconciliation advice that any unreprobate and insincere wayward spouses can't accomplish to help the betrayed spouse through their decision tree. It's just a more proactive approach to accomplishing the same end ~ successful reconciliation or successful divorce.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Everyone DESERVES a faithful spouse there is no entitlement about that. That IS exactly the promise remember? Expecting your spouse to be faithful is not self-delusion, which seems to be what you are saying here.


The entitled delusion is evident when telling a room full newly married couples that at least 50% of them statistically speaking will likely experience infidelity on some level, by one or the other of them and nearly every one of them believing magically that it won't ever happen to them {no matter what they do}.

Considering statistics, a culture that overtly celebrates adultery and the fact both spouses taking vows remain human, "expecting your spouse to be faithful" ~~ just because they took a vow, is a little delusional and entitled. 

Since we are all sinners, it could be said we all get what we deserve.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

I'd like to hear from you who have reconciled with your cheating spouse. 

How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again? 

Well, im now almost 3 years post D-day. I dont think we reached Reconciliation officially until about march of this year, so about two years and some odd months in. I had my rage, and anger. My own actions of emotions I needed to get control of, and my husband had to start talking to me better and discuss my feelings better and vice versa... We never hardly fought before the affairs that when we did have something to fight about we didnt know how to respect each other. we never really knew this side of each other. We stuck it out through the pain. Im not going to lie, I wanted to divorce many times. and I asked for it, and he did...all in anger, all because we were both broken in the aftermath of the affairs. 


Have you ever restored your intimacy and trust? Intimacy....If you asked me six months ago I would have said NO, if you asked me three months ago, I would have said...maybe, im not holding my breath, but today I dare to say YES, i have had very warm feelings for my WH of late. I have mushy lovey feelings, but i still have my memory. I still have flashes of sadness and anger, but its SO SO SO SO Much less. 

as to trust... Kinda. I trust myself to know the signs better. I hope that my weakened trust in him is not proven to be correct. As to the trust, I used to trust him 100%, But didn't trust myself...now i trust myself 100% and him...not as much. :grin2:But i don't check on him...unless i get a sign or something that sets me wondering... But that is rare, and i have not felt the need in some time. 

Are you happy?
Im a fickle human. Most of the time i am happy. Sure... I would be happier if he had never cheated, but im happy today. 

Is it better?(Or is that just a myth pushed by marriage saving websites and other initiatives?)

Total myth...what is REAL about that statement is often the cheater has unhealthy mentally and or the BS is codependent and mentally unhealthy in their way. If after an affair people work on themselves and change the relationship is in a healthier state...but often there are still gaps and holes in the foundation....like mistrust and insecurity. I dont think that EVER GOES AWAY. You can make a different marriage, but i can tell you this, its not what you initially envisioned your life to be. But it can turn out fine. You just got to face it squarely, Honestly, and with reasonable expectations. This is bumpy...its not fun. 

Reconciliation is so much harder than Divorce in most cases. But its possible, BUT ONLY IF BOTH ARE WORKING ON THEMSELVES


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> The entitled delusion is evident when telling a room full newly married couples that at least 50% of them statistically speaking will likely experience infidelity on some level, by one or the other of them and nearly every one of them believing magically that it won't ever happen to them {no matter what they do}.
> 
> Considering statistics, a culture that overtly celebrates adultery and the fact both spouses taking vows remain human, "expecting your spouse to be faithful" ~~ just because they took a vow, is a little delusional and entitled.
> 
> Since we are all sinners, it could be said we all get what we deserve.


I don't agree at all you have a right to expect exactly what your spouse promises you on your wedding day. There is nothing entitled about it no matter what the excuse is when the spouse brakes their vows. Let me ask you do you think God expects you to hold your promise, will there be an accounting for this? In any case your thoughts on this are illuminating. 

This probably explains why we feel so different on the subject. If you don't feel a spouse is entitled to fidelity then of curse you can downplay it when it doesn't happen. After all they were delusional to expect it in the first place. With thinking like this why would anyone get married?


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Quality,

what you have written really resonates with me and I appreciate you sharing your experience. 

I am also approaching this from a faith based perspective and understand what you mean by people being delusional regarding their marriage and what it all means, given that we have a fallen nature and mess up in life as a consequence. Of course, the good news is we can do better. 

I have mentioned the loss of innocence a couple of times, so perhaps I have given an impression of being a romantic, which I am not. Yes, the innocence of our relationship has been lost because the marital vow has been broken. I meant it in that sense. And yes, I did have the illusion that my husband was above certain things and simply not capable of hurting me in this way. I should have known better given that I believe in the reality of our fallen human nature. 

My attitude is that love is not just a feeling but primarily something we do, and a lot of what is driving me forward now into R is my sense of duty. Duty to my children and also to my marriage. Because we did vow to be married in sickness and in health, and for better and for worse. I take this seriously. I spoke to a trusted priest the other day and he very gently told me that this is that worse. That it may never get worse than this. That I will never forget but that I can forgive. And that gave me a lot of hope.

I know it will take both my husband and me to achieve this. We both want to. We don't want to rugsweep and just stay miserably married. We want to be where you are. Of course, there is no guarantee, and we might fail and end up divorced. But we both want to try. 

His A was brief, he snapped out of it quickly and has no desire to go back. He is fully aware of the consequences and I can see that it kills him because of what he has done to me. There has been discussion of the forum of regret vs remorse and I don't know exactly where he is on that spectrum, but he is going in the right direction. He is reading the books about the recovery plan and is completely on board. He is in IC and we will go to MC too. (Had a couple of sessions but it was too early I think.)


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Aletta said:


> Quality,
> 
> what you have written really resonates with me and I appreciate you sharing your experience.
> 
> ...


I hope your trusted priest also told you that although God hates divorce he made a way out, because adultery is one of the worst sins against a spouse and in the book of Matthew it is very clear that you can divorce on the 'grounds of sexual immorality', Be careful of priests and pastors who expect women to put up with alot of emotional abuse for the sake of the family. IMO organised religion (and I am a christian) is still very gender biased. Do not rely on these people to make a decision you should be making. Read the bible for youself.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

aine said:


> I hope your trusted priest also told you that although God hates divorce he made a way out, because adultery is one of the worst sins against a spouse and in the book of Matthew it is very clear that you can divorce on the 'grounds of sexual immorality', Be careful of priests and pastors who expect women to put up with alot of emotional abuse for the sake of the family. IMO organised religion (and I am a christian) is still very gender biased. Do not rely on these people to make a decision you should be making. Read the bible for youself.


I don't think it's gender biased because both men and women have the same obligations and responsibilities. I wouldn't be pushed to accept abuse. We were talking about the nature of marriage as such. No one in this world can make the decision for me and actually make me do something. But I know what I believe and am now willing to work on this because I believe I at least need to try. But I wouldn't if my husband was not intending to do the same. No way.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I cheated 34 years ago and my husband had a revenge affair 2 years later....
> 
> The other day my husband made this post on a forum...
> 
> ...


I think that some who cheated and reconciled try and make themselves believe that marriage can be better after adultery, but for me it could never be. The trust would be gone, the intimacy gone, the sex could never be as good(that's even if I would/could ever have sex with him again).
To imply that a marriage after an affair could be better than the majority where that hasn't been adultery seems to me to be wishful thinking.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I think that some who cheated and reconciled try and make themselves believe that marriage can be better after adultery, but for me it could never be. The trust would be gone, the intimacy gone, the sex could never be as good(that's even if I would/could ever have sex with him again).
> To imply that a marriage after an affair could be better than the majority where that hasn't been adultery seems to me to be wishful thinking.


I can only answer for myself. you cannot answer for me...I cannot answer for you. What you may beleive to be true for yourself is not necessarily true for anyone else. I answered the question...what is your marriage like after reconciliation?....I did not speculate....I did not answer about anyone else's marriage. I answered the question about my relationship with my husband....of 45 years. We both feel our realtionship is in some ways better than it has ever been. We will always carry the scar of infidelity. We will always wish infidelity had never occured...but we have a wonderful loving relationship...we both trust each other...not as blindly as we once did...but we have rebuilt trust. We are extremely intimate...and sex is for us as good as it ever was before infidelity. I can see where it might not be for others...but i was not answering for others.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

I think it's important to remember that we don't known how we are going to react until we are actually faced with that situations and it's uniqueness.
I think that op needs to know that reconciliation can result in many things...whether it be healthy happy marriage, a marriage you work on every day or a marriage where it's even better than before. But it can also result in divorce in the long run for any number of reasons.
OP you should take this one day at a time...there will be ups and downs.

I think @MattMatt may have pointed out that if you end up having a successful reconciliation be careful about every fight, every disagreement from now on resulting in this being brought up.
Part of reconciliation is moving forward and not always looking back.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

citygirl4344 said:


> I think it's important to remember that we don't known how we are going to react until we are actually faced with that situations and it's uniqueness.
> I think that op needs to know that reconciliation can result in many things...whether it be healthy happy marriage, a marriage you work on every day or a marriage where it's even better than before. But it can also result in divorce in the long run for any number of reasons.
> OP you should take this one day at a time...there will be ups and downs.
> 
> ...




I would agree with you...we might speculate how we would react but until we are actually living it we dont really know what we might feel or how we might react.

Part of the reason our marriage is better is becasue we have made a conscience effort to make it better. We might not have done that had we not almost lost US.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I can only answer for myself. you cannot answer for me...I cannot answer for you. What you may beleive to be true for yourself is not necessarily true for anyone else. I answered the question...what is your marriage like after reconciliation?....I did not speculate....I did not answer about anyone else's marriage. I answered the question about my relationship with my husband....of 45 years. We both feel our realtionship is in some ways better than it has ever been. We will always carry the scar of infidelity. We will always wish infidelity had never occured...but we have a wonderful loving relationship...we both trust each other...not as blindly as we once did...but we have rebuilt trust. We are extremely intimate...and sex is for us as good as it ever was before infidelity. I can see where it might not be for others...but i was not answering for others.


Generally WS are quite broken and this forces them to fix themselves, I am sure for those who do the marriage does seem better. The affair is usually the catalyst to get better, or at least better then they were. Plus they got to have some fun in the process right? I bet the answer for most BS would be very different. This really isn't the questions anyway, the way I see it the question is really is is your marriage better with infidelity then it would have been if it was never committed. I doubt anyone, except those in the most dysfunctional marriages before hand, would say yes. You say yourself that you wish you never had it be there. For the BS it's really always settling for a marriage they would have never picked before they said I do. There are things in life that leave permanent damage. This is one of them so it's hard to see that as making anything better, at what expense I ask? 

Besides all that OP is the only one who has to live with it so if she is a peace who are we to say otherwise. I just hope she is not choosing to do so because the catholic church heretically left out the scripture that gives her a pass to move on with her life. (Matthew 19:9) And like I always say in the old testament her husband would have been stoned to death so she would be free to marry again as a widow. That is always conveniently left out by the "God hates divorce crowd". Yeah he hates divorce but his original intention as punishment for adultery was death, so there wouldn't need to be one in this case. (Leviticus 20:10) In my mind this is why Jesus specifically said you can divorce for sexual immorality. It was never God's intention for anyone to have to stay in a marriage with adultery. You salvation is not something that traps like some misguided Christian denominations suggest. It's a sin when that is suggested as it directly contradicts Jesus' own words assuming you the type who believes the Bible is the written word inspired by God. If you don't then you really have no grounds for your argument, then it is just a Church opinion, again one the contradicts the Bible. So I ask you which is the authority? He never intended you to live with abuse. In it old testament or new. His mercy in the new covenant is for both, he lets the BS move on if they want without the guilt or shame of sin, and he lets the WS live.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I would agree with you...we might speculate how we would react but until we are actually living it we dont really know what we might feel or how we might react.
> 
> Part of the reason our marriage is better is becasue we have made a conscience effort to make it better. We might not have done that had we not almost lost US.


Mrs. John Adams,

In previous posts you mentioned your H had a revenge affair, did your H believe that balanced the scales and allowed him to recover. I have to say that for many affairs there is no compensation or no justice for the spouse who is cheated on. 

Tamat


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> Mrs. John Adams,
> 
> In previous posts you mentioned your H had a revenge affair, did your H believe that balanced the scales and allowed him to recover. I have to say that for many affairs there is no compensation or no justice for the spouse who is cheated on.
> 
> Tamat


This is off topic however i will try to answer the best i can since you are really asking me to tell you how *he* feels not how i feel. I don't beleive his RA balanced the scales...in either my mind or his. His RA certainly did not help either of us to recover...as a matter of fact it caused more pain for us both to overcome.

I agree with you....that for many...for even most affairs...there is no compensation or justice for the BS.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I don't agree at all you have a right to expect exactly what your spouse promises you on your wedding day. There is nothing entitled about it no matter what the excuse is when the spouse brakes their vows. Let me ask you do you think God expects you to hold your promise, will there be an accounting for this? In any case your thoughts on this are illuminating.
> 
> This probably explains why we feel so different on the subject. If you don't feel a spouse is entitled to fidelity then of curse you can downplay it when it doesn't happen. After all they were delusional to expect it in the first place. With thinking like this why would anyone get married?


Of course you "expect" your spouse to honor their vows and God will sit in judgment of the wicked. The consequences of sin are unavoidable and inexcusable when any of us fail to honor our vows to your spouse {and God}.

This "entitlement" and delusion I speak of are not an excuse or rationalization, after the fact, that in any way minimizes or justifies adultery. 

Adultery just is, far too often and more often than most are aware, a fact of life.

The Bible talks about it and tells us to how and why to avoid it over and over ~ yet people still fail.

There are marital resources and information everywhere explaining the dangers of extramarital friendships and other risks for infidelity in marriage and yet people still fail to plan, address or consider it might happen to them.

It's delusional to deny reality and deny the statistics.

It's delusional for almost all couples to not care about or in almost no manner prepare for, consider, protect or plan against adultery.

It's a bit self-entitled to think you 'deserve' fidelity, you and your relationship are somehow immune and 'more' special than others and you'll automatically just get it FOREVER on your wedding day.

Maybe you don't think they should {or maybe it's you don't think YOU and YOUR wife need to} because of you like to envision yourself a hopelss romantic {you've really read enough that I don't seriously consider YOU deluded when it comes to the possibility of infidelity in marriage but you do seem to believe that love, trust and character just are today, tomorrow and the next day always going to be there for you and that you're entitled to it and deserve it. If she breaks her vows, that's completely on her, it would be retroactively inevitable {like predetermination} and there is nothing you and she could have done to prevent or circumvent that as that would mean she always was and would be thereafter a cheater. 


I've quoted pop-philospher, Alain De Botton's definition of marriage before:



> "Marriage: a hopeful, generous, infinitely kind gamble taken by two people who don't know yet who they are or who the other might be, binding themselves to a future they cannot conceive of and have carefully omitted to investigate."


After infidelity, this idealist delusion of blind love, faith, innocence, and naivete usually gets replaced by something more realistic like perhaps: "a hopeful, generous, infinitely kind gamble taken by a betrayed spouse, realizing and internalizing his/her spouse's humanity and imperfection {that was always there ~ just now more apparent}, binding themselves to an uncertain future they don't need to absolutely figure out or commit to just yet {they retain their right to divorce} after much more careful and deliberate investigation {a marital reconciliation plan versus ignorant faith in romantic ideals}".

It wasn't just infidelity that woke my wife and I up to this reality. It was jumping in and helping other couples. it was sharing our testimony and having hundreds of other persons and couples approaching us, usually very privately and quietly, and sharing their own battle with infidelity that enabled us to see this wasn't just an "us" problem. Infidelity is rampant throughout the world but outside of infidelity forums and some marriage authors and counselors, few seem to know that. If told, they deny it or internally push it aside as applicable to them. They hold fast to their deluded romantic idealism. Nearly every couple that approached us hadn't shared their infidelity story with anyone else. Monogamy isn't as easy and prevalent as I believed or, should I say, presumed it to be and that REALITY does make recovery slightly easier to endure when you know and understand you aren't and never were alone in this struggle for your marriage and family and you don't have to be so ashamed, scared or fearful of trying to reconcile {because it happens all the time everywhere ~ you aren't the only 'fool' out there risking your heart} or even just reaching out for help more publicly. 


BTW ~ I'm probably still delusional about a lot of things. I reserve the right to be wrong or misspeak from time to time. I know I come off as a know it all but really I'm still learning every day and hoping I live long enough to figure this all out before I die. I truly appreciate you explaining/qualifying your relational history with cheating and how it was just your ex-girlfriend almost fiancee earlier in this thread.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> It's a bit self-entitled to think you 'deserve' fidelity, you and your relationship are somehow immune and 'more' special than others and you'll automatically just get it FOREVER on your wedding day.
> 
> Maybe you don't think they should {or maybe it's you don't think YOU and YOUR wife need to} because of you like to envision yourself a hopelss romantic {you've really read enough that I don't seriously consider YOU deluded when it comes to the possibility of infidelity in marriage but you do seem to believe that love, trust and character just are today, tomorrow and the next day always going to be there for you and that you're entitled to it and deserve it. If she breaks her vows, that's completely on her, it would be retroactively inevitable {like predetermination} and there is nothing you and she could have done to prevent or circumvent that as that would mean she always was and would be thereafter a cheater


Again everyone deserves the vows that were promised to them. Do you not think you were entitled to this? Is what this is really about? There is nothing self-entitled about that. That is what honoring them is all about. Yes no one is entitled to a good marriage that takes work. But most would agree fidelity is the very basics of marriage, it's why you take vows for crying out loud, what would be the point if we did it under the assumption that expecting them to be kept is a crap shoot or entitlement. Again why get married I don't see the point the way you think about it? Why would I say vows to someone and not expect them to keep the very same vows? 



> After infidelity, this idealist delusion of blind love, faith, innocence, and naivete usually gets replaced by something more realistic like perhaps: "a hopeful, generous, infinitely kind gamble taken by a betrayed spouse, realizing and internalizing his/her spouse's humanity and imperfection {that was always there ~ just now more apparent}, binding themselves to an uncertain future they don't need to absolutely figure out or commit to just yet {they retain their right to divorce} after much more careful and deliberate investigation {a marital reconciliation plan versus ignorant faith in romantic ideals}".


This was what I was trying to articulate in my post about innocence, and I believe this feeling stays with you with whomever you are with. I also think this is actually a good thing as it's more realistic. If you are smart you will also think this about yourself. 

I don't think you understood what my post about being a romantic was really about, it's more about romanticizing my partner, not BEING a romantic. My feelings are more about a partnership or team. I am very aware of the possibility of adultery. I am aware that even I could under the right circumstances fall pray. Because of that I won't allow myself in those circumstances. I also am aware that it could happen to me but I would never stay with that in my life.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> This is off topic however i will try to answer the best i can since you are really asking me to tell you how *he* feels not how i feel. I don't beleive his RA balanced the scales...in either my mind or his. His RA certainly did not help either of us to recover...as a matter of fact it caused more pain for us both to overcome.
> 
> I agree with you....that for many...for even most affairs...there is no compensation or justice for the BS.


Have you posted your story.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Have you posted your story.


no our story is not posted.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Aletta said:


> I'd like to hear from you who have reconciled with your cheating spouse.
> 
> How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again?
> 
> ...



*How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again?*
This is a funny question, because my definition of "normal" changed! Before my exH had his affair, my definition of normal would have been something like "playing house without being yelled at or fighting." Pretty immature, hey? After his affair, I grew enough to learn about abuse and mental illness (he was diagnosed with both bi-polar and BPD), and I did enough counseling to deal with my own physically abusive childhood . 

Going into my second marriage, I still had no model on which to base a healthy relationship, but I had some counseling under my belt and thought normal might be something like "not abusing each other, being respectful, having smooshy feelings for each other, both working on the relationship equally." BETTER... but still not very thorough or mature. Then again I was only mid-30's so I was young-ish yet. 

In my second marriage, I was the cheater. After my adultery, I had to learn a LOT more about what being married meant and what commitment looked like in real life and what love really was, etc. For example, I've learned that one part of "normal" is being honest even when you're afraid...yes be as kind as you can, but be honest about thoughts and feelings. Another example I've learned is that "normal" is knowing myself well enough to know where MY weaknesses are, and then setting up boundaries to protect my Dear Hubby and my marriage from me! 

So...it's a little like a death in the family. There's never really "normal" again, because the definition of "normal" changes afterward. BUT you can feel like you're making progress and like being together is good. It will never be "like it was" because that is dead and gone...but the new life can be even better "than it was." 

For a timeline, I would say that for me, as the unfaithful one, the first couple months of recovery were SO SHAMEFUL it was crushing, but I think that's appropriate. When I felt my worst, I kept reminding myself that what I felt was appropriate "to the crime" if you will. Not that I'm down on myself or think I'm worthless, but rather that feeling of "if you do the crime, you do the time" right? So if you sink to the level of committing adultery, it is appropriate to be ashamed of sinking that low.

The next couple months felt like progress was being made, which brought me hope, but it wasn't fixed yet by a longshot. BUT I did feel like I could see some good and some bad so it was better than the beginning which felt predominantly bad. 

The next SEVERAL months felt like two steps forward, one back. We'd try something new and it would go well. We'd try something new and it would be "meh" but we could fix it. We'd try something new and we'd flop phenomenally! We'd throw it all out the window and resort to old patterns. We'd actually resolve things and let it go. This felt emotionally exhausting but positive to me. I enjoyed gradually becoming a better and better person and wife, but it was also tiring to constantly navel-gaze and work and be hyper-aware "of the relationship." 

I would say at the one year mark we both felt like we saw enough progress to keep going, and like it was mutually satisfying. I did not stay with my Dear Hubby because I had no other options--frankly I am financially independent and healthy and I know I could live without him. I CHOOSE -- every day -- to stay and be who I am and how I am. From what I can see, he does too. We've both been through losing a marriage, and so we appreciate a partner who chooses to stay. 

*Have you ever restored your intimacy and trust?*
Again, yes and no. We are absolutely intimate in every way (physically, mentally, emotionally) and we do trust each other. The difference is that "back in the day" I think it was blind trust, and absolutely trust. Now we're wiser than that. I trust him because I see consistent behavior and transparency--his words and actions match. Likewise, I believe he trusts me because he sees the same thing. 

In the beginning, we didn't trust each other ONE BIT!!! But again, I looked at that as appropriate to the way I had acted--I had not been actually "worthy of trust" and thus if I wanted trust, I had to act in a way that was TRUST-WORTHY...and for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time. I did. I just bit the bullet and endured the reasonable doubt for years. In my head I told myself, it is reasonable for him to doubt until years have passed to prove that it is reasonable for him to trust. Make sense? 

Plus, I actually believe he did trust all those years--he trusted me to be consistent with my past behavior of dishonesty! LOL See, it wasn't that he had a "trust issue"--he was great at trusting! The thing that was at issue was my honesty!! He trusted me to still be dishonest, and again, I thought to myself that if I wanted him to begin to trust my honesty, I HAD TO ACTUALLY BE HONEST (even when it was hard and it scared me). 

Likewise, I didn't trust him to actually love me, to actually "let it go," to actually pay attention to me--I thought he'd put forth the pretend effort trying to shut me up, and then he'd give up and blame me and hold it over my head forever! So I had to give him the time to demonstrate that he really meant it when he said that he cared about me. I had to let him demonstrate that he would let it go...and so on. 

*Are you happy?*
We are, yeah! I mean, I don't do cartwheels down the street and giggle with joy every moment--but that's an unrealistic expectation anyway. No one is happy "all the time." But I love my life, I adore my Dear Hubby, I think VERY highly of him and get the feeling it's reciprocated, and we actually LIKE each other too! We're quite literally best friends, and enjoy each others' company, rarely fight, and when we do disagree it's civil, respectful and gets resolved. Does that sound happy to you?

*Is it better? (Or is that just a myth pushed by marriage saving websites and other initiatives?)*
This is a difficult question because it's loaded. I would say that "where we are now" is better than "where we were before the affair." However, I would also say that I would give almost anything to have learned the lessons we learned without going through adultery. 

From what I can tell, those who have infidelity in their marriage and try to rugsweep or deny it or avoid it, do not "get better"--so if one of the two of you refuses to really address it and dig deep AND KEEP GOING even when it hurts... it doesn't statistically look good. Usually they divorce and then do the exact same thing in the next relationship.

Those who have infidelity in their marriage and try to go to counseling but are afraid to face themselves or afraid to endure the pain of digging deep, do not "get better"-but they might personally grow and divorce to avoid finishing the therapy. 

And then there are those who have infidelity in their marriage and BOTH really dig deep and keep going and practice even when it feels "unnatural" until it does get to be a habit and they BOTH grow because of it... those folks can "get better." 

*I'm very early on in R, not sure if we'll make it or not. I'd like to, but at the moment can't imagine being genuinely happy again, ever trusting him again, or feeling close. I hope it can be done.*

I'm living proof that it can be done, but I'm not going to kid you--it's pretty rare.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Again everyone deserves the vows that were promised to them. Do you not think you were entitled to this? Is what this is really about? There is nothing self-entitled about that. That is what honoring them is all about. Yes no one is entitled to a good marriage that takes work. But most would agree fidelity is the very basics of marriage, it's why you take vows for crying out loud, what would be the point if we did it under the assumption that expecting them to be kept is a crap shoot or entitlement.
> 
> This was what I was trying to articulate in my post about innocence, and I believe this feeling stays with you with whomever you are with. I also think this is actually a good thing as it's more realistic. If you are smart you will also think this about yourself.
> 
> I don't think you understood what my post about being a romantic was really about, it's more about romanticizing my partner, not BEING a romantic. My feelings are more about a partnership or team. I am very aware of the possibility of adultery. I am aware that even I could under the right circumstances fall pray. Because of that I won't allow myself in those circumstances. I also am aware that it could happen to me but I would never stay with that in my life.


I don't think either of us are really understanding the other ~ no big deal. We are intermixing words like entitlement, expectations, justifications, and rationalization before and after the vows and before and after infidelity and now you're repeating questions I thought I explained already.




> Again why get married I don't see the point the way you think about it? Why would I say vows to someone and not expect them to keep the very same vows?


Again - psychopaths and/or swingers aside, EVERYONE *expects* the person they make vows with to be faithful and monogamous. However, that expectation isn't reality. 

Reality is somewhere north or south of 50% of these couples WILL, eventually, experience infidelity.

The delusion is that to most couples adultery/infidelity is always thought of as an "other couple" problem. 

The reality is it's an "every couple" problem. 



If people were not so deluded and entitled feeling when deciding upon and marrying their individual spouse, they MAY make smarter decisions before and after marriage. They will still feel compelled to get married, just maybe not, for example, presuming and feeling entitled to monogamy after a former lifetime of sexual immorailty and living sinfully for ourselves. 


Consider the varying degrees of delusion/reality:

1. Marry a virgin as a virgin ~ not so deluded and fairly deserving of lifetime fidelity
2. A former male stripper that marries a former porn star that "expects" and feels deserving of lifetime monogamy is safely on the delusional side of the spectrum.
3. A couple both promiscuous over years of dating others before meeting and falling in lurve, would fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum depending on their individual levels of "expectation" and "entitlement".

Couple #2 might be the most successful monogamous couple of the three and truly experience a lifetime of fidelity and marital bliss. I'm speaking in generalities, realities, delusions, odds and risk factors and not about any specific person or couple. I'm not excusing infidelity, just the notion that because you now know what your spouse is capable of means you can't have an equal to or greater "love" than you had previously in your relationship doesn't make sense. 

I don't know ~ I'm coming back to this post and just lost. 

I just see people say things like you'll never love again the same way or like they did before the affair or lamenting that they don't think I can ever respect or feel "special too" their husband again and I just want them to understand that they can and often do end up in a more loving and romantically fulfilling marital relationship than they ever had before ~ IF they go about recovery the right way. The loss of that unrealistic, young, idealistic, rose-colored-glasses kind of love that they thought was so real to them personally ~ obviously wasn't real {in their particular instance} so losing it isn't that big a deal. Your future marriage can be as loving, romantic, and extraordinary as you make it {presuming you have a willing and able partner ~ if not, take your biblical out and divorce them}. 

Further, my nearly 30-year marriage is not defined by or measured by it's worst 4 months or so. In fact, the near {marital} death experience helps us recognize and appreciate the joy of living in the top percent of successful marriages all that much more. I don't feel "permanently" damaged by my wife's affair two decades ago. It's not like I'm paralyzed, disabled or lost a child {or even a parent or sibling} to cancer or some other disease or accident {and even those people that suffer those real permanent injuries survive and thrive despite such 'injuries'}. Sure it sucked way back when, and I lamented it at the time and I never celebrate as some wonderful thing that made me/us who we are today but, I've/we've certainly overcome it and made something satan intended for evil into something wonderful today. I/we can't change the past so considering whether we could have been happier, better or incrementally more 'in love' today absent that specific sin {at the exclusion of all our other past sins} is pretty pointless.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> IF they go about recovery the right way.


How many do though. It's a big risk, just as many are stuck in dead marriages and very unhappy having wasted years.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> How many do though. It's a big risk, just as many are stuck in dead marriages and very unhappy having wasted years.


Marriage is always a big risk, in reality, isn't it? Lot's of individuals are "stuck in dead marriages and very unhappy having wasted years" in such empty marriages, infidelity or not.

After your almost fiancee and seeming soulmate cheated on you, a fairly short time thereafter you took a leap of faith and opened your damaged heart again to your wife and married her, why did you take such "big risk" yourself?

Rolling the dice on the wife of my youth and mother of my children with my eyes wide open really isn't all that much of a bigger gamble than most people take getting married in the first place.

Making the marriage extraordinary is more a personal boundary. Some/many appear to be relatively ok living in mediocre or even crappy marriages {adultery or not}. I'd tried an OK marriage and found it dissatisfying {it was dissatisfying for both of us}. At least one minor advantage to reconciliation from infidelity situations could be that a betrayed spouse maintains the biblical justification to divorce whenever they want. Persons in just plain ole crappy marriage don't have the leverage a biblical out can provide to essentially require change as a personal boundary to reconciliation after forgiveness. 

Who knows ~ as much as I insist on a recovery plan {which I still think is the best practice towards achieving either a successful recovery in situations where that is obtainable or a successful divorce in situations where that will be the ending result one way or another}, my wife and I continue to meet some fairly dynamic happy appearing couples {maybe they are faking it???} that just did recovery all on their own. My thoughts are leaning towards what we read on these infidelity forums is very often common fact patterns leading up to discovery day, but thereafter, the tragic stories on the web or that continue on the web, are not the norm. Think of it this way ~~ a military veteran forum about PTSD will be full of stories about soldiers truly suffering it's affects while completely underrepresenting the stories of thousands of soldiers that experienced the exact same battle stresses and came home relatively to completely fine. I just read the statistics and The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs estimates that PTSD afflicts: Almost 31 percent of Vietnam veterans. As many as 10 percent of Gulf War (Desert Storm) veterans and 11 percent of veterans of the war in Afghanistan. I would venture to guess if you read long enough on some military PTSD forum you'll surely believe it's effects were nearly universal and the Veteran's Dept was lying to us {or it's a conspiracy or fake news}. Like combat induced PTSD {which despite treatment, the government considers a permanent disability}, infidelity induced PTSD can be permanent as well and; though they make up an even smaller segment of the overwhelming number of betrayed spouses that don't suffer the effects of infidelity induced PTSD, they end up making a significant portion of the number of BS's that post on these type infidelity forums. I mean consider the numbers ~ these forums should be having hundreds of thousands of visitors every day instead of just tens of hundreds tops that bash around these halls for a chunck of time. A HUGE percentage of betrayed spouses just reconcile, overcome it and get about living their lives. I'm sure such strategy isn't like to result in a top 20% "extraordinary" marriage very often, but it's their choice.


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## ZedZ (Feb 6, 2017)

For me it's game over. I can take a lot of stuff but not that. If it happened I would be filing the next day. But that's just me..


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

ZedZ said:


> For me it's game over. I can take a lot of stuff but not that. If it happened I would be filing the next day. But that's just me..


Good on you. That's the spirit :thumbup:

Just yesterday I spent a bit of time with a friend whose husband has cancer. Of course, my husband doesn't have cancer, but I am quite certain about how I would handle that situation. And I'm quite certain abiut how the guy feels because I don't have cancer like he does so I obviously know. Makes sense, right?

Life has taught me that whenever I am cocky and assume things and judge people and feel very confident, that I eventually get invited to dinner to eat some humble pie. I think that most of us here probably thought we'd file and never look back before infidelity actually happened to us. :toast:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Again everyone deserves the vows that were promised to them. Do you not think you were entitled to this? Is what this is really about? There is nothing self-entitled about that. That is what honoring them is all about. Yes no one is entitled to a good marriage that takes work. But most would agree fidelity is the very basics of marriage, it's why you take vows for crying out loud, what would be the point if we did it under the assumption that expecting them to be kept is a crap shoot or entitlement. Again why get married I don't see the point the way you think about it? Why would I say vows to someone and not expect them to keep the very same vows?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. When we marry we promise to be faithful and to expect that is normal and healthy. Having an affair destroys the marriage covenant, it's shattered and broken. For many it's past trying to repair after such an appalling betrayal. I honestly don't think the marriage for me would ever be repairable. We are both previously married, his wife met another man and cheated and divorced him. In many ways it did him a favour, because the marriage wasn't happy for him but he would never have divorced her, because he believes in the promises that we make in marriage. As it is, we met soon afterward and have a much better marriage than we had in our previous ones.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

There are many helpful responses here and I've been reading them over and over again and thinking about it all. 

Was my marriage 100% amazing before? No. There are things that could have been better. We took each other for granted, did not spend enough quality time together, that kind of thing. I sometimes felt frustrated, as did my husband, but we just went with it because things were good enough. I wish we had the sense to actually improve things, but like many other couples, we didn't. 

So he messed up and I am devastated. He is devastated too because of the consequences of his actions. He will have this on his conscience forever, whether we make it together or not. I will always remember the infidelity, even if I forgive. That's the new reality for us. 

What gives me hope is that he is so genuinely sorry and hates what he has done. He told me that watching me suffer and the possibility of losing the family is the worst punishment. The fact that he is sorry, even remorseful at this stage, helps me. I couldn't make any steps towards R if he weren't. We both want to make this work and have committed to healing and working on it individually and as a couple. I want to be in that tiny percentage that reconciles and has a happy marriage afterwards. I'm so glad there are people here who have achieved that, it gives me a lot of hope. And if we don't achieve it for whatever reason, at least I will know I have given it my best shot. 

That is where I am now mentally and emotionally. This is what I'm aiming for. We'll see how things go in the following months.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Aletta said:


> There are many helpful responses here and I've been reading them over and over again and thinking about it all.
> 
> Was my marriage 100% amazing before? No. There are things that could have been better. We took each other for granted, did not spend enough quality time together, that kind of thing. I sometimes felt frustrated, as did my husband, but we just went with it because things were good enough. I wish we had the sense to actually improve things, but like many other couples, we didn't.
> 
> ...


This is the bottom line...only you can determine the right path for you....and you can ALWAYS CHANGE YOUR MIND. Just becasue a betrayed spouse chooses reconciliaiton does not mean that they HAVE to follow that game plan. You try to do the best you can...and if you come to realize it just is not right for you...you can divorce.

But you can look at yourself in the mirror and say..I did the best i can do. Thats all any of us want to be able to say.

Having said that...I know several couples who have divorced and remarried years later. That too is a choice and is sometimes the right answer.

My affair was brief...and i confessed...and i allowed my husband to make the decision that was best for HIM. I was willing to do what he needed to heal. Has it been hard? you bet it has....we have worked hard TOGETHER to get to the place we are today. DId we make mistakes? You bet we did...MANY of them.
But no one else can speak for us...and no one else can declare what is or is not possible in our relationship.
This has been our journey...and whether others agree or disagree is completely and totally irrelavent in the scheme of things.

Reconciliation may not look the same for you as it does for me...but i have no doubt...if both of you WANT it and are willing to work TOWARD it..and are committed to each other...you can both learn what remorse looks like and what forgiveness feels like. Reconciliation is a lifetime...you dont wake up one day and say...we are reconciled. It is a commitment that the TWO of you will love each other unconditionally and unselfishly. You will put the needs and wants of the other one first...and in doing so...you both win.

I love my husband more than i ever thought possible and the remarkable thing is ...I know he loves me the same way. We do our best to make the other one feel safe and appreciated...and to us...that is what marriage should be...the two of you working together toward a common goal. My husband and i are looking forward to retirement and traveling and enjoying the rest of our lives together. I had my affair in our 11th year of marriage...it is 34 years later...and we have been married 45 years. I can testify...that we are happier than we have ever been. Scarred...yes. Happier? Absolutely.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> This is the bottom line...only you can determine the right path for you....and you can ALWAYS CHANGE YOUR MIND. Just becasue a betrayed spouse chooses reconciliaiton does not mean that they HAVE to follow that game plan. You try to do the best you can...and if you come to realize it just is not right for you...you can divorce.
> 
> But you can look at yourself in the mirror and say..I did the best i can do. Thats all any of us want to be able to say.
> 
> ...


*And I heartily applaud you, Mrs. JA, as you two are truly the exception much rather than the rule!

My prayers and wishes for your continued success!*


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Thank you my friend.. we both truly know how lucky we are. We have worked very hard to have what we have together.. bless his heart ... he never gave up on me... when he probably should have . I know how precious the gift of reconciliation is... and I do my best to let him know how much I appreciate it by being the best wife I can be. Not perfect... but remorseful and forgiven. If we could do this others certainly can as well... and I am very very aware it is not for everyone... divorce is absolutely the right answer much of the time... 

When an op has a thread and has decided that they are going to try reconciliation... others should share the pros and cons as honestly as they can... but they are looking for support and encouragement from those who have made a similar journey. They are not looking for those who disagree with their choice.. to try to talk them out of it.

I don't rewrite our history... I certainly don't need others to rewrite it for me.

By the way.. so good to see you arbitrator.. glad you are here are doing well!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Aletta said:


> There are many helpful responses here and I've been reading them over and over again and thinking about it all.
> 
> Was my marriage 100% amazing before? No. There are things that could have been better. We took each other for granted, did not spend enough quality time together, that kind of thing. I sometimes felt frustrated, as did my husband, but we just went with it because things were good enough. I wish we had the sense to actually improve things, but like many other couples, we didn't.
> 
> ...


I would caution you believe his actions not his words. And by actions I mean long term actions not the first year. Also it seem some people don't really know the first year how they are going to feel a few years out. Some people are sure they want to stay and then in a few years they find that their love has died. The point being is I don't think you necessarily know that R is the best choice for a while. That is why many of us suggest detaching for a while so you can make more of a logical decision as apposed to an emotional one. It's also OK if you change your mind. Good luck.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

What do you mean by detaching? You mean seperating? Or emotionally telling yourself not to care anymore?how do you do that? She loves him.. she wants to stay married ... and it will take both of them committing 100% to the relationship to heal it.

If she can detach.. she may as well divorce...

Yes I do agree she can always change her mind.. tomorrow , next year, 5 years.... 

She will always have the option to divorce..


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> What do you mean by detaching? You mean seperating? Or emotionally telling yourself not to care anymore?how do you do that? She loves him.. she wants to stay married ... and it will take both of them committing 100% to the relationship to heal it.
> 
> If she can detach.. she may as well divorce...
> 
> ...


I don't agree about detaching, but out of respect for OP's decision I am not going to argue my point here. I have argued it vigorously in the past and you can find it in my posting history if you want. Like you said this post wasn't "should I R", but really "is it possible to R and have a good marriage". If it was "should I R", my take here would be very different. As I stated in my second post, it was never my intention to come on her and argue against R. I originally wanted to say that the innocence lost was innocence lost R or not. There was no getting it back and it shouldn't be a factor in the decision. 

For OP's sake I hope her husband is being honest and really working on his nature and capable of changing it. I also hope that she is the type that can live with this which is sometimes not known until years later. If she has both then maybe she ends up being one of the rare cases.


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## theDrifter (Mar 20, 2017)

Quality said:


> The entitled delusion is evident when telling a room full newly married couples that at least 50% of them statistically speaking will likely experience infidelity on some level, by one or the other of them and nearly every one of them believing magically that it won't ever happen to them {no matter what they do}.
> 
> Considering statistics, a culture that overtly celebrates adultery and the fact both spouses taking vows remain human, "expecting your spouse to be faithful" ~~ just because they took a vow, is a little delusional and entitled.
> 
> Since we are all sinners, it could be said we all get what we deserve.


I find pretty much everything you say to be condescending - none more than this. Wrong is wrong and breaking your marriage vow is wrong. Just because a couple *may* be able to reconcile doesn't mean that the cheater is absolved of their deed. Forgiven, maybe, but never absolved. Lowering the bar for acceptable behavior is likely why the infidelity rate is so high...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

theDrifter said:


> Lowering the bar for acceptable behavior is likely why the infidelity rate is so high...


100%


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

theDrifter said:


> Forgiven, maybe, but never absolved.


Forgiven? 

If most BS that choose R were completely honest... they would admit that they never have "completely" forgiven. Contrary to Biblical/Society views forgiveness of infidelity is at best an incremental step-by-step process. Decades of Trust, shattered by Seconds of known betrayal, total forgiveness is rare.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I can only speak for me...I KNOW my husband has forgiven me...and I also KNOW i have forgiven him. Forgotten? of course not...you don't forget bad memories...and pain...but I do think the intensity of the pain grows less over time...just like a woman giving birth always remembers the pain however... the intensitiy of that pain grows dimmer. 

Of course in our case, we had a decade of trust....shattered by betrayal...followed by decades of reconcilliation. 34 years ...of actions proving remorse...can certainly result in forgiveness....and in our case it has. 

Is this true for everyone? I dont know....but if i had not experienced it it my own life i might be skeptical too...


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

theDrifter said:


> I find pretty much everything you say to be condescending - none more than this. Wrong is wrong and breaking your marriage vow is wrong. Just because a couple *may* be able to reconcile doesn't mean that the cheater is absolved of their deed. Forgiven, maybe, but never absolved. Lowering the bar for acceptable behavior is likely why the infidelity rate is so high...



(why are you posting as "thedrifter" now instead of as "Drifter777"????)

Breaking your marriage vows IS wrong. Of course, it is. I never said, promoted or encouraged otherwise.

I've also never claimed to be in the forgiveness and absolution business for other people.

My wife's absolution is none of your business. It's also no longer mine. Whether my wife is "absolved" of her sins is between her and God now because, as far as I'm concerned, they are forgiven. 

As far as lowering the bar for acceptable behavior, I have no idea what I've written that remotely suggests such. In fact, I THINK, I'm suggesting and promoting the opposite. The infidelity rates are so high, in part, because individuals enter marriage without a clue about what marriage means and how it's supposed to work. 
They often {not universally} seem to think marriage is easy {just like dating, only magically better}and that monogamy is automatic while denying the reality that ABSENT CONSCIOUSLY RAISING THE BAR OF ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR IN THEIR MARRIAGE {something we actually try to teach them}, their marriages are at a persistent and increasing {in time & liklihood} risk of infidelity. Pointing out and explaining reality, risks and statistics is NOT absolving or excusing anyone or lowering any bar of acceptable behavior. 


When a couple is pregnant and you tell them they need to childproof their home, they don't get pissed at you or deny the reality that their home contains risks ~ risks that, even if they address some or all of them, they can never truly eliminate ALL risks their child could someday be hurt there.

Addressing the risk of infidelity with newlyweds shouldn't be any different. Yet it is. Accepting that there is a risk of infidelity means changing lifestyles, addressing uncomfortable facts and often longstanding inappropriate behaviors. Undertaking efforts, or really, even just talking about ways to "affair proof" a marriage seems to undermine some fantastical romantic notions that the couple is super special and immune to needing such information or efforts. So...instead of addressing it, they attack the messenger ~~Surely my wife and I are running around helping couples in marital crisis and coaching newlyweds in some all out effort to excuse, justify and permit adultery. 

Forewarned is forearmed.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

RWB said:


> Forgiven?
> 
> If most BS that choose R were completely honest... they would admit that they never have "completely" forgiven. Contrary to Biblical/Society views forgiveness of infidelity is at best an incremental step-by-step process. Decades of Trust, shattered by Seconds of known betrayal, total forgiveness is rare.



I hope you're wrong. 

If we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven. Mark 11:26

Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. *Forgive, and you will be forgiven. * Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. *For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you. * Luke 6:37-38


Reconciliation is optional, but for the Christian, forgiveness is required. Sometimes following Christ isn't easy.


{also, it shouldn't need explaining but I guess I need to add forgiveness isn't excusing, rationalizing, minimizing or justifying adultery either. I also know forgiveness doesn't require reconciliation and forgiveness doesn't necessarily eliminate or minimize all consequences of adultery}


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

I agree with Quality that people tend to be oblivious to the risk of infidelity and assume it only happens to other couples. I used to be exactly like that. I don't know why I assumed that - perhaps of that romantic notion that somehow we were special and immune to it. How wrong I was. Looking back, it is glaringly obvious that boundaries were not in place and that my husband has some insecurities that left him very vulnerable. The scene was practically set for infidelity and we were not aware of it at all.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Quality said:


> As far as lowering the bar for acceptable behavior, I have no idea what I've written that remotely suggests such. In fact, I THINK, I'm suggesting and promoting the opposite. The infidelity rates are so high, in part, because individuals enter marriage without a clue about what marriage means and how it's supposed to work.
> They often {not universally} seem to think marriage is easy {just like dating, only magically better}and that monogamy is automatic while denying the reality that ABSENT CONSCIOUSLY RAISING THE BAR OF ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR IN THEIR MARRIAGE {something we actually try to teach them}, their marriages are at a persistent and increasing {in time & liklihood} risk of infidelity. Pointing out and explaining reality, risks and statistics is NOT absolving or excusing anyone or lowering any bar of acceptable behavior.
> 
> Addressing the risk of infidelity with newlyweds shouldn't be any different. Yet it is. Accepting that there is a risk of infidelity means changing lifestyles, addressing uncomfortable facts and often longstanding inappropriate behaviors. Undertaking efforts, or really, even just talking about ways to "affair proof" a marriage seems to undermine some fantastical romantic notions that the couple is super special and immune to needing such information or efforts. So...instead of addressing it, they attack the messenger ~~
> .



I believe that some people think that explaining why infidelity happens somehow excuses it. And that being in a truly committed relationship means that certain things just won't happen, because the couple is really mature and responsible and all that and they will never ever be unfaithful. 

I don't know if coaching newlyweds is enough. Perhaps it should start sooner than that. I grew up in a family where there was infidelity in several generations on all sides. As a young woman I realised that my father was a serial cheater and that was a terrible thing to learn. (He left my mother for one of his mistresses, and they ended up getting married.) However, this experience still did not prepare me for marriage in terms of teaching me about setting healthy boundaries and being vigilant. I simply relied on marrying someone who was different from my father and assumed that such a man would not cheat. Looking back, I was terribly naive in so many ways. 

It doesn't help that these days it is considered backward to have boundaries in place when it comes to marriage. People are ridiculed when they admit they avoid situations of being alone with people of the opposite sex, and that they don't believe in male-female friendships. It is considered a taboo to hold such views. But because people put themselves in situations where they can get close to someone and develop a friendship and are not aware of the dangers that presents to their marriage, they end up developing feelings for that person and start sliding towards infidelity. From everything I have read, this is a very common scenario. (Of course, casual sex is a different thing.) 
This happened in my husband's case. He didn't plan to do cheat, he simply did not have good boundaries in place and did not understand he was putting himself at risk. So one thing led to another and he did not have the strength to put a stop to it. 

What Quality seems to be saying is that it would be wonderful if people had a firm moral framework that would make it impossible for them to cheat and to always do the right thing, but people are weak and make terrible mistakes, and for that reason prevention is crucial. 

I know that after this my eyes will remain wide open and that I will never again just trust a man, whether that is my husband or someone new. Trust will be based on more than me assuming fidelity is somehow guaranteed because we are committed to each other. I will probably benefit from this.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

RWB said:


> Forgiven?
> 
> If most BS that choose R were completely honest... they would admit that they never have "completely" forgiven. Contrary to Biblical/Society views forgiveness of infidelity is at best an incremental step-by-step process. Decades of Trust, shattered by Seconds of known betrayal, total forgiveness is rare.


Also, forgiveness and reconciliation are different things. Forgiveness is vital but its a process that can take many years.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I agree with much of what Quality has said. 

Aletta, things are very early for you. Things are very messed up at the moment. Its up to your husband to prove to you, a month from now, 6 months from now, 6 years from now that what he has done – was very wrong, very hurtful to you.

As a BS husband – my wife TT, lied, gas-lighted me, broke contact, etc. She did pretty much everything a typical female cheater does. She didn’t just cheat – she destroyed our family. Female cheaters tend to do that. Many folks predicted her actions. Months after I threw her out – she wanted a chance. Even thou I was already dating other women, I still wanted her back. We talked for hours. We started MC for 6 months. We both knew it would be work. And that we’ll at least give it a try.

DD was Dec 2015. R started late may 2016. We are not married.

Requirements:
- Transparency and honesty. Even if it hurts, your husband needs to tell you whatever he asks.

- MC / Marriage counseling. It’s a MUST. Make sure its not someone who just repeats what you say. (I had a IC who was like that. Yeah, it was helpful at first – up to a point. Didn’t cost me a dime and I stopped wasting my time with him).

- Books. Go to Amazon. “After the affair” by Janis Spring. “Not just friends” by Glass. “His needs her needs”.

Don’t make it dreary. Like “every day lets talk about the affair”. 

So after 15 months, how is it going? 
Well, our marriage had problems we were not aware of. Now we both talk more about our feelings, thoughts. We are more mindful of each other. I am a better man today, with my expressions. My wife is a better woman with her drinking and drug abuse and of course cheating. We both changed how our family home is, how we are with others. We both have matured.

Do I love my wife? Yeah. Will we be a success? I don’t know. I want us to be. I really dig my wife. I really do not want anyone else. She has said the same, that she wants to remarry. Same here. But… there have been hiccups – which are not uncommon. There are also typical stressors that causes triggers. I still have my PTSD issues, but nothing like the first 5 months of hell. I agree, the scars of infidelity will always be there.

As I heal, things get better. Trust gets better. Sex gets better. Its fine – actually. That took a while, but have more to do.

Innocents is lost. I know that things will never be 100% the same. She hurt me badly. She did typical cheater stuff because what affairs do to some people. She pays for our MC. She still has to pull her weight to prove herself. I have learned that enemies of marriages are all around. A friendly neighbor – even if they won’t have an affair with your SO – they may support the WS to cheat again. My wife brought it up to me when a woman next door said “I’ll help you cheat” – not exact words. Of course, that woman is also a cheater – she didn’t tell me, my wife did.

I do see my life with my “wife”. I would like it to be. I also know, it will never be 100% the same. I still hurt. I also know, that with how I am – that I would not ever trust anyone – 100% with my heart. My wife or anyone else. When I interact with other women online friends or IRL – they also prove to me that my wife is the person I want to be with.

R is not easy. Don’t kid yourself. But as long as your wayward means it, and does the MC and support your healing – then at least give it a go. If after 4 or 6 or 9 months, you are not feeling like you are getting enough improvements – then end it.

The whole thing still sucks. It has cost us time, money and more.
But I have my own honor… that is to help my wife when she falls. She fell hard. But she also knows that I will not accept anymore from her. It will be cold and I will be done. And that, is a hard thing to do. But I need that defense mechanism.

She’ll never have 100% my heart. I can’t put into words how much damage she has done. She doesn’t know how much she has lost – from me, from her stupid actions. And that hurts me as well.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Innocence is the one thing that can never be recaptured after infidelity. I was 17 and my husband was 19 when we married. He was the ONLY boy I ever dated.

When I cheated...even though there was only one sexual encounter...I doubled my sexual experience. I took away the innocence of our relationship and I can NEVER give it back. This is probably the thing that makes us both the most sad...because we knew we were special.

Now..while the innocence of our love and sex and relationship is gone and cannot be returned...we have a much more mature...much more compassionate...much more understanding kind of love and relationship. No...it is not the same as innocent love. But it is fulfilling and good.

We mourn for the loss of that innocence...but we rejoice for the mature and fulfilling love we have.

I have never been divorced...so this is speculation on my part...but I imagine the love we have to be comparable to those who have divorced and found love again with someone else. It is just as intense...just as fulfilling as their innocent love with their first spouse may have been...it just isn't innocent.

How do we measure how much of our hearts we give to someone? How do we measure how much we have forgiven? How do we measure how much we trust?

I hear people say I will never trust 100 % again...I have even said it. But in reality...how do we really measure it? I believe my husband has given me all of his heart as I have given him all of my heart. I know he trusts me....is there a part of him that doesn't trust? I think there is a part of him that knows REALITY that I have cheated once and could cheat again....and maybe that’s the INNOCENCE I am talking about. He married me trusting that I would never cheat...and now he knows I could. 

I can tell you this...For many years I looked into his eyes and I knew he was holding himself in reserve...I could SEE it. I look into his eyes now...and I know that I have all of him once again. It is hard to explain...but he and I have talked about the difference. 

The innocence is gone yes...and that’s sad. But the relationship can be just as fulfilling and just as good without the innocence.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Innocence is the one thing that can never be recaptured after infidelity. I was 17 and my husband was 19 when we married. He was the ONLY boy I ever dated.
> 
> When I cheated...even though there was only one sexual encounter...I doubled my sexual experience. I took away the innocence of our relationship and I can NEVER give it back. This is probably the thing that makes us both the most sad...because we knew we were special.
> 
> ...


I often give the example of how having a second child, doesn't take away from or reduce the amount of love you have/had for your first child. 

Nobody would say or think, "well, had I not had that second kid, I might could have loved the first one even more".

Love isn't static. It's limitless. 

The more love you give, the more you get back and the more you have to offer others.

"But whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst.*Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water*welling up to eternal life.” - John 4:14


I'll add this for Tador ~ hoping not to offend ~ I don't think you have to be religious to experience this either. This truth just happens and when you experience it, such truth becomes, perhaps, a little harder to deny. The softening of your heart towards your wife is the exact same path of grace and mercy Jesus walked for all of us 2000 years ago. You are modeling Christ's love. Regardless of your disbelief, I believe your actions please Him and He has sent angels to move mountains for you and your wife as you've both rededicated yourselves and honored his Godly institution of marriage.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I would agree about the children.. but you certainly can love them differently.... because they are different people.

I wish with all my heart I could undo what I did... but I also know that there is the possibility we may not have that the deep mature love we have now had it not happened. Don't misunderstand me... because I am speculating ... I can't undo the past and I can't predict the future.

All I know is this.. I am so thankful to have this man in my life and that I have been blessed to share my life with him... through all the pain and sadness... joy and happiness... laughter and tears.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Aletta said:


> I'd like to hear from you who have reconciled with your cheating spouse.
> 
> How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again?
> 
> ...


It was hell. I was desperate and romantically inclined. I wanted to make it all like before. But before was not good and probably had a lot to do with what happened. We had some good times for a couple of years when I thought we were close, but the problems which were very severe before the affair re-presented and with constancy and all the viciousness. I did not make a decision about it, but I eventually lost interest. We have four young daughters so I think we both did not want to break up the family. There is some affection, but it is the affection you have for an ex. Riding it out and providing for the family.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Harken Banks said:


> We have four young daughters so I think we both did not want to break up the family. *There is some affection, but it is the affection you have for an ex. Riding it out and providing for the family*.


HB,

"Riding it Out"... Thank you for your Brutal Honesty.


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## billbird2111 (Feb 14, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I admire you for trying, I know that for me I could never trust again, nor could I ever have sex with a cheater again.


I so very much know how you feel. I feel the same way. I have completely given up on my wife and I ever getting back together again. I don't even think about it anymore. Do I still miss her? Yeah! But I miss the woman she was. The loyal loving woman who was murdered by the cheating ***** she became.

There are certain things I tell other married men now. For example? If the wife asks for permission to join a yoga class? She's really telling you that she's about to start screwing some other dude -- or in my case -- several dudes and one woman.

Yoga is a cult. Do you know why, for example, when there's a newspaper story about a new yoga place that's opened up, but the owners maintain this place isn't for hookups? That's because it is a place for cheaters to hook up. If your husband or wife has taken up yoga, I double dog guarantee you they are cheating on you with at least one partner, or in my case, several.

I am of the opinion that yoga businesses should be burned to the ground, and the owners of these cesspools should be dragged into the street and shot like rabid dogs.

Otherwise, they're OK!


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

billbird2111 said:


> I so very much know how you feel. I feel the same way. I have completely given up on my wife and I ever getting back together again. I don't even think about it anymore. Do I still miss her? Yeah! But I miss the woman she was. The loyal loving woman who was murdered by the cheating ***** she became.
> 
> There are certain things I tell other married men now. For example? If the wife asks for permission to join a yoga class? She's really telling you that she's about to start screwing some other dude -- or in my case -- several dudes and one woman.
> 
> ...


i am not sure it is fair to condemn all yoga classes...but we get your message


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

RWB said:


> HB,
> 
> "Riding it Out"... Thank you for your Brutal Honesty.


It is just what I have left. You may remember that I was basket case when all of this happened. I tried desperately to understand and to put things back together. It exhausted everything I had.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Anyone else here on antidepressants?

I see that they are dulling my emotions. I don't really know what my real feelings are towards my husband and our situation. I either feel cheerful in a weird way, or melancholy. 

I have never had problems with depression in my life and what I'm going through is just natural sadness. I need to see my doctor again and discuss this because I'm not sure I need medication to deal with this. I just want to have my feelings back, good and bad.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

billbird2111 said:


> There are certain things I tell other married men now. For example? If the wife asks for permission to join a yoga class? She's really telling you that she's about to start screwing some other dude -- or in my case -- several dudes and one woman.
> 
> Yoga is a cult. Do you know why, for example, when there's a newspaper story about a new yoga place that's opened up, but the owners maintain this place isn't for hookups? That's because it is a place for cheaters to hook up. If your husband or wife has taken up yoga, I double dog guarantee you they are cheating on you with at least one partner, or in my case, several.


Not sure if yoga classes are to blame. I have been in several and never been hit on and it never crossed my mind to look for lovers. I think that any place or activity can be an opportunity for those who want to cheat. 

So sorry you went through that. Sounds like your ex was a real gem.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Aletta said:


> Anyone else here on antidepressants?
> 
> I see that they are dulling my emotions. I don't really know what my real feelings are towards my husband and our situation. I either feel cheerful in a weird way, or melancholy.
> 
> I have never had problems with depression in my life and what I'm going through is just natural sadness. I need to see my doctor again and discuss this because I'm not sure I need medication to deal with this. I just want to have my feelings back, good and bad.


I tried anti-depressants. Probably most of the people here have taken them. I resisted for a long time and did not like the idea of medication. My doctors continued to encourage me to start anti-depressants. I tried for maybe a month and then threw them all in the trash. Was I depressed? Yeah, with good reason. Did I want to be medicated or chemically lobotomized? No. While there was much concern and sympathy, throughout the ordeal there seemed to be an implicit suggestion that the problem was me, which it was not. Take care of yourself. I did not do that terribly well. But others have.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Did non-addictive medication. Gabapentin. (sp?) It helped. I did them for about 5 months. It'll help reduce the stress, helps to calm your mind - therefore improve thinking.... reduce panic attacks which simply are paralyzing. 

Avoid Xanax, Trazadone and Prozac.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Innocence is the one thing that can never be recaptured after infidelity. I was 17 and my husband was 19 when we married. He was the ONLY boy I ever dated.
> 
> When I cheated...even though there was only one sexual encounter...I doubled my sexual experience. I took away the innocence of our relationship and I can NEVER give it back. This is probably the thing that makes us both the most sad...because we knew we were special.
> 
> ...


First of all trusting anyone 100% is probably not a wise idea so I don't see this as a loss. 

However your description leaves out the all the stuff that is added. It's not only what is lost but what is gained. If there is infidelity there it is no longer just two people in the relationship. In a sense that now there is the BS, the WS, and the affair. Having read here and other places I really get the sense that once infidelity happens this really becomes one of if not the primary focuses of the marriage from that point forward, a lot of times at least for the BS it seems like it becomes primary focus of their lives. I don't ever get this sense from the people who move on to new relationships, the power of the affair eventually goes away many times when they meet and fall in love with someone else. That is because the thing that makes it painful the rejection and the love you feel for the WS hold no power over you, they really just become someone in your past. You no longer care what they did because your focus is on this new person. Now hopefully they meet a healthier person this time. That is a whole other issue. This attitude (it holds no power) seems rare in most of the posts from BS I read, again who can blame them. It was the center of my own life for 2 years and I hadn't spoken to the person who cheated on me in all that time. I can't imagine that would go away if I had to see her everyday. 

What I am saying is it just seem like once in R the affair is always there to shape the relationship. A huge amount of emotional energy is spent on this and rightfully so as it is needed to live with it. This even for the most successful ones, and frankly it seems that is want it takes to be successful. To me this may not be an active loss but it IS a passive one. It serves to reason that that energy could have been spent on other things. Nah it's a lot more then just losing innocence. 

I think it really comes down to what you want in your life. Maybe what I just wrote isn't thought of as a loss to you maybe you find it heroic. Or maybe you feel it is worth it. I think that is what you need to use to decided if you want to do it. For me it is a quality of life issue. Again I get why a WS would want to, even feel it necessary to spend their whole lives expending any emotional energy they can to make it right but I see this as tragically unfair to the BS.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Aletta said:


> Anyone else here on antidepressants?
> 
> I see that they are dulling my emotions. I don't really know what my real feelings are towards my husband and our situation. I either feel cheerful in a weird way, or melancholy.
> 
> I have never had problems with depression in my life and what I'm going through is just natural sadness. I need to see my doctor again and discuss this because I'm not sure I need medication to deal with this. I just want to have my feelings back, good and bad.


From my experience there are different classes of medication and I would make sure I was under a psychiatrists care if you are going to take them long term. My direct experience is primary doctors don't really know enough to look for the side effects. I ended up taking them for PTSD which had nothing to do with infidelity. I am in no way against them as they have their place especially if it is genetic or like me if you are going through a very difficult time. Again this is not me talking like Tom Cruse. However I can tell you, now that I am off them I wish I was off them sooner. It is amazing to me the difference in the subtly of my feelings and just life in general. I also immediately started exercising, eating better and lost a substantial amount of weight. At the time they were absolutely necessary to me at to function, but I wish I had been under a doctors care for whom such drugs were a primary part of their practice. There was probably a better drug out there for me and I doubt I would have been on them so long. Just my two cents. 

Also any good IC will tell you you need to work through your emotions not numb them. This is also something only now am I pursuing again because I was numb.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Aletta said:


> I believe that some people think that explaining why infidelity happens somehow excuses it. And that being in a truly committed relationship means that certain things just won't happen, because the couple is really mature and responsible and all that and they will never ever be unfaithful.


To me it sounds like some of you are justifying it to to normalize it to make it more palatable in their own lives. In the sense that if you make it so common that there is no point in demanding better. What you guys are really saying is "Everyone does it so it's really unrealistic to expect otherwise" I agree with @theDrifter that is condescending. 

OP I really hope this fear that you can't find someone who will be completely faithful is not what is keeping you with someone who cheated on you. I am a man and I have never and will never cheat. I would rather cut off my "arms". I know many like me. My friends are like me, we know men who have and we talk about them like dogs. We are not unicorns.

It's funny like you my father was also a serial cheater. It's partly why I won't. It's probably a small part of why I am on here in the sense that I believe that some of our nature is genetically based and like alcoholism I believe faithlessness can be inherited. I want to be on my toes and understand this. My lesson was that I had to do better, I couldn't do this to another human being. This was only reinforced after being cheated on personally, but I would never have cheated anyway. To a great extent I believe it is in your nature. People are either cheaters or they are not. But you are right that doesn't make it a passive thing, you have to be proactive. The ones who don't are proactive about the dangers. I hope you husband really does get this. 

One other thing I would caution you about is you can only have boundaries for you. You having better boundaries would not have changed what happened. In the end of the day if your husband wanted to cheat he would have found a way. It is a difficult realization to come to but your fidelity is entirely in the hands of your husband. This is why I see R as such a risk. There is really nothing you can do or not do that will keep him faithful. In the end he has to want to be and choose to be. That is why knowing or not knowing it can happen, or even loss of innocence isn't really the point. It all comes down to who he will become and if he has it in him to do the work to do that. If he does have it in him there is still the question of is that is enough for you in the long run, you may change your mind.

The only boundary you can have that will really keep you safe is one that won't put up with it.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> First of all trusting anyone 100% is probably not a wise idea so I don't see this as a loss.
> 
> However your description leaves out the all the stuff that is added. It's not only what is lost but what is gained. If there is infidelity there it is no longer just two people in the relationship. In a sense that now there is the BS, the WS, and the affair. Having read here and other places I really get the sense once infidelity happens this really becomes one of if not the primary focuses of the marriage from that point forward, a lot of times at least for the BS it seems like it becomes primary focus of their lives. I don't ever get this sense from the people who move on to new relationships, the power of the affair eventually goes away many times when they meet and fall in love with someone else. That is because the thing that makes it painful the rejection and the love you feel for the WS hold no power over you, they really just become someone in your past. You no longer care what they did because your focus is on this new person. Now hopefully they meet a healthier person this time. That is a whole other issue. This attitude (it holds no power) seems rare in most of the posts froM BS I read , again who can blame them. It was the center of my own life for 2 years and I hadn't spoken to the person who cheated on me in all that time. I can't imagine that would go away if I had to see her everyday.
> 
> ...


Getting a sense of what things "seem" isn't really experiencing it so your conclusions are nothing more than wild guesses.

I understand your limited viewpoint. It worked for you. It worked for me with my old college girlfriend too. HOWEVER, as has been pointed out to you time and time again, a marriage especially one with children is not in anyway comparable to 1 year holiday fling with a foreign national on a 1 year visa cheating on you just prior to your proposal and just prior to returning to her home country never to be seen again and now you've traded her in for a lovely wife and "you no longer care what they did because your focus in on this new person" {though you spend a lot of time lamenting this old girlfriend instead of actually "focusing" on her}. 

You think it's just a simple matter of we should trade in our old tired old cars that failed us one time for new shiny ones, because DUH, new cars are better and once you're driving it, you'll forget all about the time ole Betsy let you down. 

Thing is. I really LOVE my old sports car. She's a keeper that's getting better with age. She beautiful inside and out, a great mother and extremely fun companion who makes me a better man, husband, and father too because I'm with her and we build each other up. We're both great now. The "energy" we expand on and in our marriage and helping other marriages is not now nor would it ever have been "better spent on other things" because MARRIAGE MATTERS {and none more than mine}. Just because my wife and I remain willing to share our testimony and I post here from time to time decades later doesn't mean that's the only way people recover successfully {we're just the only ones willing to show up on the internet willing to put up with the abuse, misinformation, and naivete ~ perhaps a blind spot in your conclusions based upon "having read here and other places"}. We've met lots of successfully reconciled couples that did it on their own or with a counselor for a season or two or three and years later are great too without any dark clouds of doom and gloom "energy" hanging over them. In fact, when working with couples we usually advise them that, in time, and after full repentance and forgiveness, the affair should be and become "as far from the east as the west" and no longer talked about. Any voluntary "energy" they spend or expand on it after that shouldn't be "negative" energy {don't really know what this "energy" force you are speaking of???}.

In essence, we aren't "living with it" ~ we're just living our lives ~ together, happily. I truly believe a lot less betrayed spouses suffer from PTSD than you believe {and it's certainly tragic and awful when they do ~ I'm not minimizing the pain of infidelity for all and the long lasting insurmountable pain for some ~ I just don't think it's anywhere near "most" couples that recover are incapable of gettng over it ~ in due time}. 

Saving marriages, families, and individuals {whether they choose to recover or divorce} isn't quite as taxing and frustrating as trying to kill hope and convince everyone they should give up because recovery {that you've never experienced and have no real knowledge of} will forever be miserable and they should all divorce. Or continuously getting frustrated, argumentative and trying to deny anyone that says recovery is possible or counters your juvenile soapbox speculative lectures and guesses about what you'd supposedly do if you were faced with our situations. Thing is, "THEY" almost always "try" {if given ANY seeming window of opportunity} ~ that's why they're on the internet looking for information and strategies ~ they are ALREADY hopeful and who are you to try to kill hope where hope exists until it doesn't all on it's own??? Talk about "negative energy"???


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> From my experience there are different classes of medication and I would make sure I was under a psychiatrists care if you are going to take them long term. My direct experience is primary doctors don't really know enough to look for the side effects. I ended up taking them for PTSD which had nothing to do with infidelity. I am in no way against them as they have their place especially if it is genetic or like me if you are going through a very difficult time. Again this is not me talking like Tom Cruse. However I can tell you, now that I am off them I wish I was off them sooner. It is amazing to me the difference in the subtly of my feelings and just life in general. I also immediately started exercising, eating better and lost a substantial amount of weight. At the time they were absolutely necessary to me at to function, but I wish I had been under a doctors care for whom such drugs were a primary part of their practice. There was probably a better drug out there for me and I doubt I would have been on them so long. Just my two cents.
> 
> Also any good IC will tell you you need to work through your emotions not numb them. This is also something only now am I pursuing again because I was numb.


As I've hinted at before, instead of investing all this "negative energy" attacking, critiquing and speculating about other people "going through a difficult time", why not open up yourself {here or anywhere else} about YOUR PTSD problems and issues.

I can't imagine going through what I believe you went through and if I'm right, maybe it's time to discontinue the distraction of "hope killing" other people you seem to maybe think are in a worse boat that you and get on with "working through your emotions" about it now that you're not numb.

I know you probably don't want my sympathy or help. I'll stay completely out of the way and off any self-help thread you commence. Besides, staying away will help me avoid the twitching impulse I'll surely feel to mockingly {and comparable cruel} tell you "there's no hope, it's over, you should divorce because you'll never get over this, it'll remain a third thing in your marriage forever that will forever exude "negative energy" and you should just move on to a new person so you can more easily forget" {I'm NOT really mocking you, attacking you or your wife ~ I WANT your marriage to thrive and be successful like ALL marriages and I've never been through what you've been through and I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist but wondering if the things you post here sometimes, not all the time, might actually be what you're telling yourself. It's like you are projecting, or transference or whatever they call it. Like becoming the infidelity expert is just some kind of coping mechanism allowing you to address/express your feelings and trauma sideways because you can't or won't talk about it elsewhere??? Whatever it is, it isn't nice to other people actually sharing their issues honestly and openly, but I'm not the "nice" police or a mod so do whatever you please.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* billbird2111
Yoga is a cult. Do you know why, for example, when there's a newspaper story about a new yoga place that's opened up, but the owners maintain this place isn't for hookups? That's because it is a place for cheaters to hook up. If your husband or wife has taken up yoga, I double dog guarantee you they are cheating on you with at least one partner, or in my case, several.*

The most sexual talk I heard was when someone that went to China was describing a "squat potty" that China typically had 50 years ago.

I have been going to a yoga class for 2 years and never saw anyone even get chummy, let alone anything sexual. One time a temporary instructor had everyone stand on one foot while hanging on to the person next to them in a long line. To me that was a balance exercise.

I willl say some of the younger instructors are kind of cute when they stand on their head. Us old geezers can't do the extrem stuff but it is good to know someone can.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> First of all trusting anyone 100% is probably not a wise idea so I don't see this as a loss.
> 
> However your description leaves out the all the stuff that is added. It's not only what is lost but what is gained. If there is infidelity there it is no longer just two people in the relationship. In a sense that now there is the BS, the WS, and the affair. Having read here and other places I really get the sense that once infidelity happens this really becomes one of if not the primary focuses of the marriage from that point forward, a lot of times at least for the BS it seems like it becomes primary focus of their lives. I don't ever get this sense from the people who move on to new relationships, the power of the affair eventually goes away many times when they meet and fall in love with someone else. That is because the thing that makes it painful the rejection and the love you feel for the WS hold no power over you, they really just become someone in your past. You no longer care what they did because your focus is on this new person. Now hopefully they meet a healthier person this time. That is a whole other issue. This attitude (it holds no power) seems rare in most of the posts from BS I read, again who can blame them. It was the center of my own life for 2 years and I hadn't spoken to the person who cheated on me in all that time. I can't imagine that would go away if I had to see her everyday.
> 
> ...


I dont know your story....I dont know if you have had infidelity in your realtionship...I dont know if you are divorced...I dont know if you have reconciled.

I do my very best to keep an open mind...always willing to learn from those who have differing opinions than i do.

I appreciate your viewpoint...and i respect your opinion.

You dont know our story...you dont know our realtionship...you dont know about our infidelities...you dont know about our reconciliation. 

And at the end of the day...none of it matters. Your opinion and presumptions about me don't affect my life or my relationship in any way.

I will tell you that the main facus of our marriage is not infidelity...the effects of infidelity...the om or the ow....TAM or any other forum.

The focus of our marriage is the realtionship we share with each other...our goals and dreams...watching our children and grandchildren grow and become good responsible adults....traveling...planning for retirement....and enjoying life....and the quality of our lives and our realtionship is wonderful. You seem to have a concept that the infidelity defines us and our realtionship and is ever present. In the first few years...I might agree with this concept....but in our case...it has been 34 years. Yes we carry the scar...and we always will...but in no way is infidelity the main focus in our everyday lives. We live our lives just like everyone else. 

I do my very best to be as honest as i can when commenting on threads. I try to give others hope.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> To me it sounds like some of you are justifying it to to normalize it to make it more palatable in their own lives. In the sense that if you make it so common that there is no point in demanding better. What you guys are really saying is "Everyone does it so it's really unrealistic to expect otherwise" I agree with @theDrifter that is condescending.


No one on this thread, "REALLY" said that. 

"Infidelity happens and it's unrealistic to expect it could never happen TO YOU"

There is nothing universally condoning, justifying or rationalizing societal infidelity past or present in that statement. As I said yesterday, it's actually the opposite. Ignoring and denying infidelity happens and carrying on with the delusion that it'll just magically happen because it's oh so realistic to expect it, only makes Satan's job that much easier.




> OP I really hope this fear that you can't find someone who will be completely faithful is not what is keeping you with someone who cheated on you. I am a man and I have never and will never cheat. I would rather cut off my "arms". I know many like me. My friends are like me, we know men who have and we talk about them like dogs. We are not unicorns.


Well, there's a risk factor. Delusion and a false sense of righteousness. Risk doesn't always lead to affairs, it needs opportunity at just the perfect moments and I agree that, for some, the risk of infidelity is less than others. For example, some on the autism scale don't often cheat. Others were or will be given different crosses to bear. Still wouldn't hurt to undertake some affair proofing measures here and there just for the added protection ~ just in case you're mistaken {or your wife isn't quite as resilient as you}. Good luck. 




> It's funny like you my father was also a serial cheater. It's partly why I won't. It's probably a small part of why I am on here in the sense that I believe that some of our nature is genetically based and like alcoholism I believe faithlessness can be inherited. I want to be on my toes and understand this. My lesson was that I had to do better, I couldn't do this to another human being. This was only reinforced after being cheated on personally, but I would never have cheated anyway. To a great extent I believe it is in your nature. People are either cheaters or they are not. But you are right that doesn't make it a passive thing, you have to be proactive. The ones who don't are proactive about the dangers. I hope you husband really does get this.


This is good. Just in case that stuff about generational curses is true {which would kind of mean it IS in your nature and you'll need to work against it}. Breaking the cycle takes knowledge and a plan and it's sounds like you've got one. You can't take risks without being at risk EVEN if one this they are completely impervious to risk. If nothing else, you can model such appropriate marital behavior for your wife {who may be at more risk} and future kids. It's not like you can say "Honey, I can have as many opposite sex friends as I want because I'm a man of character that would never cheat, but you're not quite as strong as me"



> One other thing I would caution you about is you can only have boundaries for you. You having better boundaries would not have changed what happened. In the end of the day if your husband wanted to cheat he would have found a way. It is a difficult realization to come to but your fidelity is entirely in the hands of your husband. This is why I see R as such a risk. There is really nothing you can do or not do that will keep him faithful. In the end he has to want to be and choose to be. That is why knowing or not knowing it can happen, or even loss of innocence isn't really the point. It all comes down to who he will become and if he has it in him to do the work to do that. If he does have it in him there is still the question of is that is enough for you in the long run, you may change your mind.


If a spouse WANTS to cheat, tis true they will find a way. Most {not all} don't want to or seek it UNTIL they are already into it, or it's too late to go back {their "feelings" follow their actions - flirting, lunches, texting, lingering, talking inappropriately oversharing, obessing, compliments, gifts, sexting, love notes, scheming, sexting, sex}. Even a serial cheating husband where both want to save their marriage can be recovered with and even trusted, if strict accountability measures are undertaken, like the couples finds a way to work together, probably out of the home, no porn and the serial cheater has no contact ALONE ever with the opposite sex. I wouldn't like living like that but it's their lives and marriage. I think desire to cheat USUALLY arises via risky behavior. Anyone that wakes up "WANTING" to cheat shouldn't be married. 



> The only boundary you can have that will really keep you safe is one that won't put up with it.


At this point, the only boundary you can have that will really keep you safe is one that won't put up with it, AGAIN ~ EVER AGAIN. 

Make your marriage great and it won't even be a concern. Besides, "Gray Divorce" is all the rage now and absent small children, divorce would be a lot less complicated.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> As I've hinted at before, instead of investing all this "negative energy" attacking, critiquing and speculating about other people "going through a difficult time", why not open up yourself {here or anywhere else} about YOUR PTSD problems and issues.
> 
> I can't imagine going through what I believe you went through and if I'm right, maybe it's time to discontinue the distraction of "hope killing" other people you seem to maybe think are in a worse boat that you and get on with "working through your emotions" about it now that you're not numb.
> 
> I know you probably don't want my sympathy or help. I'll stay completely out of the way and off any self-help thread you commence. Besides, staying away will help me avoid the twitching impulse I'll surely feel to mockingly {and comparable cruel} tell you "there's no hope, it's over, you should divorce because you'll never get over this, it'll remain a third thing in your marriage forever that will forever exude "negative energy" and you should just move on to a new person so you can more easily forget" {I'm NOT really mocking you, attacking you or your wife ~ I WANT your marriage to thrive and be successful like ALL marriages and I've never been through what you've been through and I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist but wondering if the things you post here sometimes, not all the time, might actually be what you're telling yourself. It's like you are projecting, or transference or whatever they call it. Like becoming the infidelity expert is just some kind of coping mechanism allowing you to address/express your feelings and trauma sideways because you can't or won't talk about it elsewhere??? Whatever it is, it isn't nice to other people actually sharing their issues honestly and openly, but I'm not the "nice" police or a mod so do whatever you please.


I just knew my post would trigger you. You are so predictable I don't even read your posts anymore. I knew when I made it you would use it to attack me. I am sure it will come up later again when I say something you don't like.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I dont know your story....I dont know if you have had infidelity in your realtionship...I dont know if you are divorced...I dont know if you have reconciled.
> 
> I do my very best to keep an open mind...always willing to learn from those who have differing opinions than i do.
> 
> ...


My opinions are just that opinions they are not even about you they are general thoughts on infidelity. I'm sorry if you took that as an attack on you or your marriage. My history has been told a few times on here in various posts, if you want to look you can find it. I would like to hear yours though.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I just knew my post would trigger you. You are so predictable I don't even read your posts anymore. I knew when I made it you would use it to attack me. I am sure it will come up later again when I say something you don't like.


I just knew my post would trigger you. My opinions are just that, opinions. They are not even about you as they are my general and much more knowledgeable and experienced thoughts on infidelity as well as concern for you and other posters that show up on this forum reading your attacks on betrayed spouses. I'm sorry if you took that as an attack on you or your marriage.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*



How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again?

Click to expand...

*For me normal is getting to the place that your emotions are not so frayed. For me that was about two years.


*



Have you ever restored your intimacy and trust?

Click to expand...

*To a degree yes. The intimacy potential and trust was restored somewhat but the intimacy will never be great nor will the trust ever be 100% again. However, they both vacillate from time to time from average to good.


*



Are you happy?

Click to expand...

*Yes, but my WS is not the 100% reason for my happiness although she is one factor. There are a lot of factors in my happiness including my successes, my relationships with others (mostly other family members), knowing that I mostly took the high road, and the satisfaction I have with myself.


*Is it better? (Or is that just a myth pushed by marriage saving websites and other initiatives?)*
In my case, my marital relationship after betrayal is mostly good but not better than before Infidelity.

Aletta, as you probably know, there are so many factors in each couples dealing with betrayal. On your thread you have those that say that their marriage is now better and those that say the opposite. My guess is by what you have wrote so far is that you have some positives that lean in the direction of you both keeping the marriage together. *I think the most important question that you asked was “ARE YOU HAPPY”, because if you are happy then you will have a good life if you R or D. IMO

Infidelity does not have to ruin your life!
*


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

aine said:


> IMO R is much more difficult than divorce.


I will agree with this statement.

But that's because I believe in order to reconcile, you have to eat a huge **** sandwich and _continue _occasionally eating at the **** Sandwich Cafe for years. But with a divorce, the food, and the cafe's where you eat, are much more palatable.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> To me it sounds like some of you are justifying it to to normalize it to make it more palatable in their own lives. In the sense that if you make it so common that there is no point in demanding better. What you guys are really saying is "Everyone does it so it's really unrealistic to expect otherwise" I agree with @theDrifter that is condescending.
> 
> OP I really hope this fear that you can't find someone who will be completely faithful is not what is keeping you with someone who cheated on you. I am a man and I have never and will never cheat. I would rather cut off my "arms". I know many like me. My friends are like me, we know men who have and we talk about them like dogs. We are not unicorns.
> 
> ...


Like you I would never cheat. Also like you, my dad did and it almost destroyed our lives. I would never ever put up with cheating either.If each spouse knows that if it happened the marriage would be over, no ifs or buts, then maybe less would risk it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I will agree with this statement.
> 
> But that's because I believe in order to reconcile, you have to eat a huge **** sandwich and _continue _occasionally eating at the **** Sandwich Cafe for years. But with a divorce, the food, and the cafe's where you eat, are much more palatable.


A divorce is very painful and has many difficulties that R doesn't have, such as having to lose your home, having little money, having to care for the children alone, having to go through the divorce in the first place, paying for the divorce(I had to sell my home to do this), repercussions for the wider family, having hurting children to deal with on your own etc.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> A divorce is very painful and has many difficulties that R doesn't have, such as having to lose your home, having little money, having to care for the children alone, having to go through the divorce in the first place, paying for the divorce(I had to sell my home to do this), repercussions for the wider family, having hurting children to deal with etc.


This is the calculus we all go through. 5 or 6 years later, I am not sure I should not have ended it all immediately. The personal toll, physical and psychological, in trying to carry on and plow through is tremendous. The damage to my children is also quite evident. I made the choice to keep the family together. Not without cost.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Harken Banks said:


> This is the calculus we all go through. 5 or 6 years later, I am not sure I should not have ended it all immediately. The personal toll, physical and psychological, in trying to carry on and plow through is tremendous. The damage to my children is also quite evident. I made the choice to keep the family together. Not without cost.


 Well my husband and I have both been through divorces after long first marriages. It takes his toll, and he has almost lost contact with his now adult children despite us making every effort to keep in touch. 
I personally couldnt stay with a cheater, but both scenarios are hard.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

I've been thinking about things discussed here. Like risk. We take a risk with R. We could end up wasting more precious time and getting more hurt if it doesn't work out. We also take a risk with every new relationship. I am 100% certain I would never trust a man again, but would have my eyes wide open, looking for signs. I used to believe that people should be trusted until there was a reason not to. Well, things have changed. I'm singing a different tune now. No matter what I do now, I'm taking a risk. 

My husband is experiencing some kind of a breakdown. His conscience is killing him, and he is terrified I will leave and take the kids. He is desperate to R, and show me he is worth it. I'm very glad he is experiencing this because he has really dragged me through hell. A bit of fear and worry will do him good. I believe he is ready to R and do the work. I genuinely believe he's learned his lesson.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> I just knew my post would trigger you. My opinions are just that, opinions. They are not even about you as they are my general and much more knowledgeable and experienced thoughts on infidelity as well as concern for you and other posters that show up on this forum reading your attacks on betrayed spouses. I'm sorry if you took that as an attack on you or your marriage.


You keep bringing that up. I will agree that you have more experience it recovering from infidelity when you agree that you have no experience in what it is to have a long term marriage without it. Never stopped your from making just as many assumptions however.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Aletta
> What gives me hope is that he is so genuinely sorry and hates what he has done. He told me that watching me suffer and the possibility of losing the family is the worst punishment. The fact that he is sorry, even remorseful at this stage, helps me. I couldn't make any steps towards R if he weren't. We both want to make this work and have committed to healing and working on it individually and as a couple. I want to be in that tiny percentage that reconciles and has a happy marriage afterwards. I'm so glad there are people here who have achieved that, it gives me a lot of hope. And if we don't achieve it for whatever reason, at least I will know I have given it my best shot.
> 
> My husband is experiencing some kind of a breakdown. His conscience is killing him, and he is terrified I will leave and take the kids. He is desperate to R, and show me he is worth it. I'm very glad he is experiencing this because he has really dragged me through hell. A bit of fear and worry will do him good. I believe he is ready to R and do the work. I genuinely believe he's learned his lesson.


In an earlier post I said you have positives that lend you towards R.
Your above words tell me I was right and you have a LOT of positives for a beginning to a successful R. You want to R and your husband is showing that he really has a conscience and that conscience is making it very clear to him how destructive his actions are to him and you. He also knows how much he can lose if he does not R.

As a BS that has over 20 years of R, I can tell you that in addition to healing the marriage we have achieved a very close relationship with the children and that is very important to us. We have also secured our retirement so when I retire in a few years I will have no worries about paying our bills. In fact we will have enough left over to have some extras including enough money to travel.

I know that your healing of your emotions is top priority right m now but after several years you will also possibly maintain or gain a great relationship with your children. One other thought that I had when I was in your time period; I think that the chance of getting another mate that would love my children as much as their real mother was very low to nil.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Aletta said:


> I've been thinking about things discussed here. Like risk. We take a risk with R. We could end up wasting more precious time and getting more hurt if it doesn't work out. We also take a risk with every new relationship. I am 100% certain I would never trust a man again, but would have my eyes wide open, looking for signs. I used to believe that people should be trusted until there was a reason not to. Well, things have changed. I'm singing a different tune now. No matter what I do now, I'm taking a risk.
> 
> My husband is experiencing some kind of a breakdown. His conscience is killing him, and he is terrified I will leave and take the kids. He is desperate to R, and show me he is worth it. I'm very glad he is experiencing this because he has really dragged me through hell. A bit of fear and worry will do him good. I believe he is ready to R and do the work. I genuinely believe he's learned his lesson.


Never judge any person, place or creed by the worst of their actions. It's OK to not trust 100% but you still must trust eventually even your husband. If he is to stay your husband, unless you want one of those marriages where there is no safety. That seems worse then being alone if you ask me. I also wouldn't call that truly reconciled. It is a necessary part of human relationships. The lesson to get from all of this is not that it's not safe to trust, it's to recover and then realize you are strong enough that even if it happens again you will be OK. Once you get there your fear will not be as intense you will actually have a lot of confidence. I spend very little time afraid of being cheated on. I know I will be sad but soon enough fine. Like my Mom told me when I was going through it, "If you can get through this you can get through anything." That has been my mantra all these years. The first time I really didn't think I could, but I was wrong.

As far as your husband. you will know true remorse when he stops wondering what will happen to him and his only care is on what is best for you, how YOU are doing. Doesn't seem he has gotten there yet.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Aletta said:


> I've been thinking about things discussed here. Like risk. We take a risk with R. We could end up wasting more precious time and getting more hurt if it doesn't work out. We also take a risk with every new relationship. I am 100% certain I would never trust a man again, but would have my eyes wide open, looking for signs. I used to believe that people should be trusted until there was a reason not to. Well, things have changed. I'm singing a different tune now. No matter what I do now, I'm taking a risk.
> 
> My husband is experiencing some kind of a breakdown. His conscience is killing him, and he is terrified I will leave and take the kids. He is desperate to R, and show me he is worth it. I'm very glad he is experiencing this because he has really dragged me through hell. A bit of fear and worry will do him good. I believe he is ready to R and do the work. I genuinely believe he's learned his lesson.


Aletta....

He is scared to death of losing his life as he knows it. Right now this is all about him...and really nothing about you. He has not "learned his lesson". This is not like a child taking a cookie from the cookie jar and being sent to stand in the corner. He's an adult...he is not learning a lesson.

Committing adultery as you know is about a person who has validated bad behavior in their own mind. They lie, they steal, they cheat, they betray, they validate, they blame shift, they trickle truth, they are completely dishonest, they are selfish,

this is not about learning a lesson. This is about changing a mindset. Is it about facing who you are...who you have allowed yourself to become...and committing to finding out the flaws within you...that gave you permission to be completely and totally evil. To hurt the one person you vowed to be faithful to in every situation in life....and then to take that pain within yourself...to understand the severity of what you have done and be willing to do whatever it takes to heal the person you have broken. Remorse takes a very long time to understand...and even longer to experience. And sometimes the wayward never understands the severity of the pain they have caused. 

I can tell you...he cannot feel remorse for what he has done to you as long as he still is wallowing in self pity...and that's where he is now...he is feeling sorry and afraid for himself.

Remorse can take MANY years to achieve...i think it took me at least 15 years to begin to understand the pain i caused my husband...and another 15 to be able to SHOW it.

They say it takes 2-5 years to heal from an affair...but i think it takes a lifetime

Are you willing to give him the time it will require? because you will take 2 steps forward and one back.
This is a lifetime process. But it certainly can be a vibrant wonderful relationship again...as long as you both are willing to put in the time and effort required.

I don't like to paint unrealistic pictures or expectations for those who are just beginning this journey....but i also don't like to paint a picture that says you have no hope...because as long as the two of you commit to working toward reconciliation..there is hope.

You need to be in therapy...the both of you...you need to be reading books...everything you can get your hands on but especially how to help your spouse heal from your affair. You need to be communicating...EVERYTHING...talk talk talk.

this is a long hard road and the only way you can make it is if the two of you commit to work together....and years from now I hope you both have reached the place in your relationship where you can live happily ever after...despite the scars you will now forever carry. You can look at the scars and be sad to be reminded of where you were...or you can look at your scars and see just how far you have come...together.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Aletta said:


> My husband is experiencing some kind of a breakdown. His conscience is killing him, and he is terrified I will leave and take the kids. He is desperate to R, and show me he is worth it. I'm very glad he is experiencing this because he has really dragged me through hell. A bit of fear and worry will do him good. I believe he is ready to R and do the work. I genuinely believe he's learned his lesson.


The only 'lesson' he's learned is that he had his fun and now he's facing the *consequences* of his **** behavior and stands to LOSE something for it. Next time, he'll be a lot sneakier so he doesn't get caught again, is all.

It has NOTHING to do with having a conscience because if he HAD one, he wouldn't have cheated on you. So he doesn't get to pretend to have one now.

This is simply all about HIM and what HE stands to lose.

*Your* pain is insignificant to him.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I would caution against trying to teach anyone in a relationship a lesson. That keeps the resentment and tit for tat going. Do what is right for you. Without apology. Whether that is reconciliation or something else.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Aletta said:


> I've been thinking about things discussed here. Like risk. We take a risk with R. We could end up wasting more precious time and getting more hurt if it doesn't work out. We also take a risk with every new relationship. I am 100% certain I would never trust a man again, but would have my eyes wide open, looking for signs. I used to believe that people should be trusted until there was a reason not to. Well, things have changed. I'm singing a different tune now. No matter what I do now, I'm taking a risk.
> 
> My husband is experiencing some kind of a breakdown. His conscience is killing him, and he is terrified I will leave and take the kids. He is desperate to R, and show me he is worth it. I'm very glad he is experiencing this because he has really dragged me through hell. A bit of fear and worry will do him good. I believe he is ready to R and do the work. I genuinely believe he's learned his lesson.


IT always amazes me how many cheaters are suddenly so 'remorseful' when they are found out and think they may lose their families. Even if I did stay with a cheater, I would ask that he leaves for 3-6 months so that I could pray, think and make a decision as to the future. That would show him that there are serious consequences for adultery. Let him stew and reflect.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Aletta....
> 
> He is scared to death of losing his life as he knows it. Right now this is all about him...and really nothing about you. He has not "learned his lesson". This is not like a child taking a cookie from the cookie jar and being sent to stand in the corner. He's an adult...he is not learning a lesson.
> 
> ...


I actually believe that he is already feeling remorse. Maybe it isn't perfect remorse, but it's definitely something. A beginning perhaps. Yes, he is afraid and feels ashamed but I see that he is horrified by how he has hurt me. I feel it. It's definitely there. He wants to help me heal, to get me out of this nightmare. He's ready to do anything that needs to be done for me. Has has shown me that by his actions so far. I hooe I won't be disappointed. 

Thanks for your input, your contribution to my thread is so helpful.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> BY She’sStillGotIt
> The only 'lesson' he's learned is that he had his fun and now he's facing the consequences of his **** behavior and stands to LOSE something for it. Next time, he'll be a lot sneakier so he doesn't get caught again, is all.
> 
> It has NOTHING to do with having a conscience because if he HAD one, he wouldn't have cheated on you. So he doesn't get to pretend to have one now.


By what Aletta has posted, her husband does have a conscience. He has that inner feeling and voice that tells him that he has done wrong. Saying someone does not have a conscience because they cheated in the past is making a broad general judgment that cannot explain other cheaters that have reconciled with remorse. Aletta by your posts below you have hope:

By Aletta
what gives me hope is that he is so genuinely sorry and hates what he has done. He told me that watching me suffer and the possibility of losing the family is the worst punishment.

His conscience is killing him, and he is terrified I will leave and take the kids.

Aletta, do not let a statement like “Next time, he'll be a lot sneakier so he doesn't get caught again, is all.” Kill your hope. That statement is the opposite of what you wrote above.

As I have said before Aletta, you have a lot of positives for the BEGINNING of R. *If you both get good R information, have the right attitude, work to improve your lives and marriage, and he has real remorse, you can get a LOT better in the next few years*. Time, actions, and attitude will tell you the truth in the years to come.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Thank Mr Blunt. Thanks.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

This thread really triggered me.

Our marriage is better and worse after the adultery.

Better because in my quest to heal, I discovered some very good materials to help our communication. Husband was a poor communicator during our entire marriage. He stone walled, changed the subject, was passive aggressive, etc. I knew I was very frustrated by the way our conversations went, but I didn't know enough to know exactly what was going on, and how to stop allowing myself to get caught up in it.

Now I recognize his tactics as they are happening, so I know I am not crazy, and I don't allow him to twist things to make me look to blame all the time. He has read NMMNG, and has begun to recognize the tactics he uses, although he still uses them since he is used to being that way.

His unhealthy "Mr. Nice Guy" personality is what cause much of our marital problems prior to the EA and which set him up for being open to adultery. I'm glad he is working on being an "authentic guy" rather than a "Nice guy."

It is worse in that more hurts have been inflicted which were directly caused by the EA. I would recommend that a BS not move, or make big decisions (live moving) in order to reconcile. That was my biggest mistake and I have regretted it ever since.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr Blunt said:


> By what Aletta has posted, her husband does have a conscience. He has that inner feeling and voice that tells him that he has done wrong. Saying someone does not have a conscience because they cheated in the past is making a broad general judgment that cannot explain other cheaters that have reconciled with remorse. Aletta by your posts below you have hope:
> 
> By Aletta
> what gives me hope is that he is so genuinely sorry and hates what he has done. He told me that watching me suffer and the possibility of losing the family is the worst punishment.
> ...


At this point it's safer not to hope only view with caution. Have hope a year from now when he is still doing the work, that way if he is not you didn't get your hopes up for nothing. One terrible disappointment is enough, and I can point to thread after thread where they said all the right things, maybe even wanted to change, but it's hard to change ones nature. For now keep your eyes open. Liars lie they are really good at it. Words even crying is cheap especially for those who are used to using them to get things they want. Sustained actions that is what counts, and that takes time.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

sokillme said:


> At this point it's safer not to hope only view with caution. Have hope a year from now when he is still doing the work, that way if he is not you didn't get your hopes up for nothing. One terrible disappointment is enough, and I can point to thread after thread where they said all the right things, maybe even wanted to change, but it's hard to change ones nature. For now keep your eyes open. Liars lie they are really good at it. Words even crying is cheap especially for those who are used to using them to get things they want. Sustained actions that is what counts, and that takes time.




I agree.
I do think that she needs to proceed with caution.
After a betrayal like infidelity you can't just throw your blind faith in someone right away. That person earns your trust after they prove they do the work and will continue to do the work.
I think that is why a lot of reconciliation does not work because the ws thinks it's about months of work not years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Aletta, do not let a statement like “Next time, he'll be a lot sneakier so he doesn't get caught again, is all.” Kill your hope. That statement is the opposite of what you wrote above.

As I have said before Aletta, you have a lot of positives for the BEGINNING of R. If you both get good R information, have the right attitude, work to improve your lives and marriage, and he has real remorse, you can get a LOT better in the next few years. Time, actions, and attitude will tell you the truth in the years to come.



> By SoKillMe
> At this point it's safer not to hope only view with caution. Have hope a year from now when he is still doing the work, that way if he is not you didn't get your hopes up for nothing. One terrible disappointment is enough, and I can point to thread after thread where they said all the right things, maybe even wanted to change, but it's hard to change ones nature. For now keep your eyes open. Liars lie they are really good at it. Words even crying is cheap especially for those who are used to using them to get things they want. Sustained actions that is what counts, and that takes time.




*How do you do all the hard stuff in R without a least a degree of hope?*
I agree that sustained action over time is what counts the most. However, I do not know anyone that worked on the hard work for a year without any hope. Do you? You can have some hope and be cautious at the same time. SoKillMe, women are very good at multitasking.

Aletta
You want to R and your husband wants to R and that takes at least a degree of hope. I do not know how much R success these people have that are telling you to not have any hope. I can tell you that I had some degree of hope in the first few months and years and I now have over 20 years of a good marriage and a good life. 

*If you do not want to R then I would suggest that you listen to people that have failed to R or did not try R.. However, if you want to R then I would encourage you to listen to people that have succeeded at R for many years*.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

I started this thread to hear from people who have reconciled. I understand R can be a great sucess, but sometimes a couple just stays together without improving their relationship. I understand there is no guarantee for a happy R, so I want to hear about people's experiences.

Yesterday afternoon I met up with two friends. One is single and the other married for 15 years. The married one has never been cheated on and was completely certain she would not ever try to reconcile. Both were being quite difficult, telling me what to do. The married one refused to believe I'm not in control of my emotional rollercoaster. The whole thing left me quite exhausted. I feel like I'm suddenly living in infidelity twilight zone and other people don't get it.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Aletta said:


> I started this thread to hear from people who have reconciled. I understand R can be a great success, but sometimes a couple just stays together without improving their relationship. I understand there is no guarantee for a happy R, so I want to hear about people's experiences.
> 
> Yesterday afternoon I met up with two friends. One is single and the other married for 15 years. The married one has never been cheated on and was completely certain she would not ever try to reconcile. Both were being quite difficult, telling me what to do. The married one refused to believe I'm not in control of my emotional rollercoaster. The whole thing left me quite exhausted. I feel like I'm suddenly living in infidelity twilight zone and other people don't get it.


Unfortunately, the fights you see here are just a microcosm of the real world where everyone that cares about you lacks the objectivity and experience to understand. It's easy to say "just leave" because they just want to see you out of immediate pain and they don't have to live with the forever consequences of divorce {or the consequences not knowing if another outcome might have been possible}.

Marriage and Family Therapist, Michelle Davis says: 



> *"Don't be quick to tell family and friends" ~~ * It is important not to be too quick to tell friends and family about the problem of infidelity. If everyone in one’s family is apprised of the infidelity, even if the marriage improves, family members may not support the idea of staying in the marriage. They may pressure the betrayed spouse to leave. So, while emotional support during this rough time is absolutely necessary, it’s important to get professional help or talk to friends or family who will support the marriage and be less judgmental. Those people should have the perspective that no one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes and as long as the unfaithful spouse takes responsibility to change, marriages can mend.



Reconciliation usually involves an extended period of isolation where the couple focuses on their relationship to the exclusion of all outside relationships and interference. 

I forget, do you and your husband have children? Do they know what your husband did? They certainly should and your husband should be apologizing to them for disrespecting their mother and almost destroying their family. It's the start to living an honest marriage. No more secrets.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

We have twho young children, ages 5 and 7. They know things are not right and are concerned about what is going on. Sincd they are so young, we have not told them the reason. But what you say about my husband apologising to them is a great idea. I will ask him to do that, to tell them he is sorry for making me upset and that he will do everything to make our family calm again. They will appreciate that.

Yesterday was the first time people reacted like that, with a lot of intensity. I know they are angry and care about me and the kids. I am so grateful for that. But it bothers me when people who have not been through this claim with certanty they would do or not do something. They really have no clue. And I hope they never find out.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Aletta said:


> We have twho young children, ages 5 and 7. They know things are not right and are concerned about what is going on. Sincd they are so young, we have not told them the reason. But what you say about my husband apologising to them is a great idea. I will ask him to do that, to tell them he is sorry for making me upset and that he will do everything to make our family calm again. They will appreciate that.
> 
> Yesterday was the first time people reacted like that, with a lot of intensity. I know they are angry and care about me and the kids. I am so grateful for that. But it bothers me when people who have not been through this claim with certanty they would do or not do something. They really have no clue. And I hope they never find out.


Yeah, 5 and 7 are a bit young to conceive and be understanding of all that's going on but children are both perceptive and self-centered. They know something bad is afoot and they will tend to think it's about them if not told otherwise. 

I'm an advocate for honesty. Your children will one day know and understand what happened to them {it's their family too} and LEARN from it. Such sharing isn't to punish your husband but rather to demonstrate that their father isn't perfect and even he makes mistakes and it's what you do after the mistakes that matter most. By that time, being a cheater will be who he used to be. He'll hopefully be a great husband and father in an extraordinary marriage by then {or not be around}.

With children so young, am I right to presume you aren't working? Sorry if you already shared that info, but I missed it. In situations where the ability to choose to reconcile is almost indecipherable {such young children and financial dependence really doesn't give you the perceived ability to truly just decide to kick his cheating butt down the road ~~ in other words, you appear "stuck" trying}, I often have the betrayed wife demand a post-nuptual agreement protecting her financially from future infidelity. If he cheats again ~ you divorce and get all the assets, custody {to the extent it can be pre-arranged in your state} and 75% -100% of the retirement accounts. My theory is the wayward husband of the stay at home mom kind of senses and knows he's going to get away with it deep down. He just has to play contrite for awhile and then he can do what he wants cause really where else is his wife going to go? Recent waywards still think they're hot stuff and secretly often believe you are lucky to be with them, not the other way around. A post-nup says you mean business and he is going to have to back up his "act of contrition" with stepping up to the table and putting his supposed "regret" with his signature on the dotted line of an unfavorable post nuptual agreement IF he truly wants his family back. As long as he never cheats, it'll never hurt him, but you can be a little more secure knowing if it happens again ~ you won't have to face total economic catastrophe as a side plate to his second round of betrayal.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Yes, I'm a stay at home mom. And I homeschool. We live abroad and the plan was to carry on for a few more years. I was very happy and freely made the choice to stay with the kids and homeschool. But now I am in a bad position. I gave 100% to our family and got knifed in the back. Before the A ended and I was preparing to return home, my lawyer drafted a separation agreement. Since we decided to reconcile, we have not signed it. If we end up seprataing, the draft is ready for us to sign. I will think about a post nup. It sounds like a really good idea for someone in my position.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

Harken Banks said:


> I would caution against trying to teach anyone in a relationship a lesson. That keeps the resentment and tit for tat going. Do what is right for you. Without apology. Whether that is reconciliation or something else.


I just want to say that I'm not teaching my husband a lesson. His own behaviour and its consequences are teaching him the lesson.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Aletta said:


> I just want to say that I'm not teaching my husband a lesson. His own behaviour and its consequences are teaching him the lesson.


OK. Be careful. My wife's affair was in part to "teach me a lesson." As was her initiating the divorce process when I was not playing along as she would have liked. My response: during the two days of divorce process and her having handed me a schedule of custody I hooked up twice and was quite happy. I did not initiate either event, but it was fun and I was free. She went ballistic and melted down with some violence and drama. I said we are getting divorced, what did you expect? She thought that one of the lessons from these pages was that you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. My thinking was I don't care about that crap. You had an affair, I hung in through hell and tried to work it out, and you started divorce, so I am going to have some fun. She was trying to "teach me a lesson." What I learned was there is endless opportunity for happiness, as well as misery. Between the two, I will always chose happiness. Teaching lessons kind of smacks of retribution, deserved or not. There is no percentage in that.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I think reconciliation is easier if fewer people know about the infidelity.

It should be the bs choice of course who should be told. In our case... my husband did not want others to know so the only person we told was my mom. She helped us tremendously.

Our children were young so we did not tell them anything.

I did tell our daughter limited information when she was 18 but we have not discussed it since and we have never said anything to our son.

Telling others often times caused irreparable rifts. People can't help but be judgemental and often voice their opinions. Quite frankly... we did not care what others thought. We decided to reconcile... and we stayed the course.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I totally agree, Mrs. JA. 

I was in R for decades before giving up and during that time I didn't share anything with anyone about my husband's cheating. When I decided to divorce due to the next round of cheating, yes, I did tell everyone. But not before. That causes too many hard feelings among your family and friends IMO. R is difficult enough without adding that to the mix.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

I agree Mrs JA
Our story closely mirrors yours, Mrs JA. I had the affair, due to some horrible and stupid circumstances. We separated, and I quickly came to my senses. I wanted reconciliation. Before reconciliation she wanted to go into couselling, both individual and marriage and she told me that she was going to go on a date. A week later, she told me that she had slept with a man from work. We reconciled over the course of six months. We have been happier and more solid than all of our friends at the time. Many are now divorced, out of 12 couples, only two are still together. There will always be a memory of what happened. It comes up from time to time. We bury the crap with the good memories since then.

We shared our story with very few. Our parents knew, as did older siblings. Other than my boss, who was a champ, nobody else was told. Better that way. I have seen separations and divorces played out for public consumption. Never a good thing.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Taxman said:


> I agree Mrs JA
> Our story closely mirrors yours, Mrs JA. I had the affair, due to some horrible and stupid circumstances. We separated, and I quickly came to my senses. I wanted reconciliation. Before reconciliation she wanted to go into couselling, both individual and marriage and she told me that she was going to go on a date. A week later, she told me that she had slept with a man from work. We reconciled over the course of six months. We have been happier and more solid than all of our friends at the time. Many are now divorced, out of 12 couples, only two are still together. There will always be a memory of what happened. It comes up from time to time. We bury the crap with the good memories since then.


well i think it takes a long time...we have been working on this 34 years...and we dont bury anything...we talk it out


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I guess I have avoided this thread long enough, I intended to post but never did. Thinking back to our marriage pre-affair, it had its share of problems. My actions contributed to the marriage basically surviving but not thriving by any means. I had my share of blame in the marriage problems, I contributed to some of the problems, this made reconciliation more difficult. Separating the infidelity from my marriage issues from a betrayed standpoint was difficult at best. 

When infidelity struck my marriage I became a shell of my former self. My actions completely not who I was, my attempted suicide had never even crossed my mind until I lost all of myself. Being told I brought issues to the marriage had me furious, until I learned the affair and my issues to be separate. As a betrayed spouse your first instinct is to say the WS cheated, not me, but were you perfect before the affair? Since I know of nobody that is perfect, I obviously brought issues, but no matter what issues I brought they are not the CAUSE of the affair. That lays solely on the shoulders of the WS.

We both entered IC as we were already in MC. In IC we both fixed ourselves, we became better persons, and in MC we worked on the marriage issues. In turn, because we became better persons, our marriage did improve. At the moment we are three years into reconciliation. We work on us and the marriage each day, we talk about everything, but most importantly we are vulnerable to each other. We work together, we make sacrifices together, we support each other, we are each other's best friends. 

I can't say if reconciliation ever ends, right now I would say it doesn't. I guess what I'm saying is both my wife and I should have been putting this work into our marriage before the affair, we didn't. The work we do now has both of us happier, both of us better persons, and possibly better parents. Reconciliation taught us how to be better for our marriage, so for me I see it as reconciliation really never ends. If we stop doing what we have been, we will have the marriage we did pre-affair, both of us unhappy. 

So yes, my marriage is better now, and I view infidelity as the catalyst to our marriage improving. Will I say our marriage is better due to infidelity? No. The reason being, infidelity killed the marriage, we changed and became better through IC and therefore we have basically built a new marriage. We remember happy moments from the old marriage, we include those years in our anniversaries, and we continue to work on this marriage so it remains at the level we have gotten too.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Because of the posts from others here who are long term R. I had brought up the subject with my WW... that YES, we are better today - than before the A, but it will be a wound that will last a life-time... a scar, etc. What was lost, is pretty big.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

drifting on said:


> I can't say if reconciliation ever ends, right now I would say it doesn't. I guess what I'm saying is both my wife and I should have been putting this work into our marriage before the affair, we didn't. The work we do now has both of us happier, both of us better persons, and possibly better parents. Reconciliation taught us how to be better for our marriage, so for me I see it as reconciliation really never ends. If we stop doing what we have been, we will have the marriage we did pre-affair, both of us unhappy.
> 
> So yes, my marriage is better now, and I view infidelity as the catalyst to our marriage improving. Will I say our marriage is better due to infidelity? No. The reason being, infidelity killed the marriage, we changed and became better through IC and therefore we have basically built a new marriage. We remember happy moments from the old marriage, we include those years in our anniversaries, and we continue to work on this marriage so it remains at the level we have gotten too.


Thanks for sharing.

This is what I'm hoping for. For our marriage to improve as we improve as individulas, and then as a couple. I don't think that we will ever just relax after this disaster, and my hope is that our focus and energy will be on keeping things strong, on growing, working on things. I guess that under the circumstances this kind of vigilance is not a bad thing. I wish we had had the wisdom to be aware of it before this happened. 

I'm glad that R is possible and that amarriage can thrive afterwards. I am still dealing with the shock and the pain and it is hard to even imagine a brighter future. I look forward to getting out of this tunnel in which everything is very dark.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Aletta said:


> I'd like to hear from you who have reconciled with your cheating spouse.
> 
> How long did it take to reach some level of feeling normal again?


I never did, I've dealt with 14 years of depression on an doff from it. But in fairness to me, I also dealt with a spouse who lied about her sexual attraction to me, turned it on when she needed (wanted another kid), turned it off just as fast and went back to sex every 2 weeks. Sex is just a manipulation tactic for her. Had she actually shown actual attraction to me it would've went a long way. But you can't fake what's not there, but that begs the question why did she beg me back? I don't get it.



Aletta said:


> Have you ever restored your intimacy and trust?


Nope



Aletta said:


> Are you happy?


Nope. But I did basically lay it out with her that the marriage is effectively over, we can't divorce with finances too involved right now, but I'm done getting duty sex and hearing excuses and her pledge her love when she hasn't loved me like a wife needs to love a husband since she was 22. I can't deal with the lack of sexual connection with a woman. So while not happy, I now feel I can breath and free and there can be some form of future for me where I am happy.



Aletta said:


> Is it better? (Or is that just a myth pushed by marriage saving websites and other initiatives?)


No, but in fairness we didn't do the necessary things to really reconcile. My wife wanted it rug swept and not discussed then go back to the same behavior as before. I wanted to talk about it, we fought constantly, even 14 years later.



Aletta said:


> I'm very early on in R, not sure if we'll make it or not. I'd like to, but at the moment can't imagine being genuinely happy again, ever trusting him again, or feeling close. I hope it can be done.


Good luck, don't do what we did, and more importantly don't do what I did, if the cheating spouse doesn't do what they promise, doesn't show sincere remorse and change, GTFO, save yourself a decade of hell.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

knobcreek said:


> Good luck, don't do what we did, and more importantly don't do what I did, if the cheating spouse doesn't do what they promise, doesn't show sincere remorse and change, GTFO, save yourself a decade of hell.


I will gtfo if I see it is not working out. I'm really scared of wasting my years.

I'm sorry things turned out this way in our case, it sounds really hard. I wish you all the best and a bright future.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Aletta said:


> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> This is what I'm hoping for. For our marriage to improve as we improve as individulas, and then as a couple. I don't think that we will ever just relax after this disaster, and my hope is that our focus and energy will be on keeping things strong, on growing, working on things. I guess that under the circumstances this kind of vigilance is not a bad thing. I wish we had had the wisdom to be aware of it before this happened.
> 
> I'm glad that R is possible and that amarriage can thrive afterwards. I am still dealing with the shock and the pain and it is hard to even imagine a brighter future. I look forward to getting out of this tunnel in which everything is very dark.




Aletta

For far too long I resided in a room with no lights, Windows, or a door. Trapped in this room in my mind that took me deep into depression. It wasn't until I worked on myself, found myself again, learned I would be just fine married or divorced, did I begin to see a sliver of light. During this depression I found that my work greatly contributed to my depression, and later my physician stated I was dealing with PTSD. The infidelity devastated and destroyed me, my work contributed that people overall were scum. Things at work began to seep inside so to speak and I was rattled beyond belief. Every horrific scene I encountered began to play I my head. From car accidents to murders, child abuse to domestic violence, I've seen things no human should see. Children less then a year old killed or sexually assaulted, children hit by cars on their bikes, all of it went through my mind in that damn room.

In IC I worked hard to better myself and fix myself, I became a better person, and I became more compassionate in my approach to my work. This can be accomplished by anyone, anyone who truly desires to be better. Work hard, self reflect inward with completely honesty and humility. Reconciliation is very difficult, you will want to walk away at times, but ask yourself what you truly want, is your spouse doing the same hard work? If you answer yes then keep pushing forward, keep bettering yourself, and soon you will be healthy enough to work on the marriage. If at any time you find you can't accept and move forward then pull the plug. If you can't accept what happened then you never will and working on the marriage becomes futile. You have to be honest with yourself here.

Aletta, I think if both people are truly committed to the same goal, then it can be achieved. In your case you need time and healing for yourself. Get to a healthier place, don't rush, work out every detail you need to, and you will thrive again once more. It will get better, time needs to pass, and your self will return in time.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

I was advised toward the end of the process that bad memories of the affair, revenge and reconciliation would raise their heads from time to time. A very wise therapist said, make new and better memories and use them to bury the hateful and painful crap. 30 years later, we still have talks about it, but those were different people on another planet.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I am only just not got to the point that at our next MC - We have a few lose ends to sort out. But at this point, I am done talking about my wife's affiar and want to talk about continued improvements with *US*.

Just this weekend, we were out (rare) in the city where everyone was watching the fight, bars, etc. A old friend on her side, who saw the drama on FB... asked how WE were doing as a couple. Wife did lose some friendships over her affair when I blew her up on FB. I didn't give two cents back then, and I don't care now. One of my sisters hasn't talked to me since either. Oh well.


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## jane2017 (Aug 28, 2017)

Hello, 

I too am in an early reconciliation and have a lot of the same questions you have. We separated back in March and only a month ago got back together. We wanted to try and be friends first and see where that takes us. We started hanging out again and going to counseling. It still felt really odd and awkward, but the last few days it started to feel a little like normal. Unfortunately, yesterday we found out the woman he was with is now pregnant. So, that was a big shock and I'm not too sure how it will end up now.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jane2017 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I too am in an early reconciliation and have a lot of the same questions you have. We separated back in March and only a month ago got back together. We wanted to try and be friends first and see where that takes us. We started hanging out again and going to counseling. It still felt really odd and awkward, but the last few days it started to feel a little like normal. Unfortunately, yesterday we found out the woman he was with is now pregnant. So, that was a big shock and I'm not too sure how it will end up now.


That will complicate things no end. Hasn't he heard of birth control?
At the least he will have to pay towards the childs keep, the worst for you would be that he has contact with the child and therefore the mother for many years. That assuming it's his of course.


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## jane2017 (Aug 28, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> That will complicate things no end. Hasn't he heard of birth control?
> At the least he will have to pay towards the childs keep, the worst for you would be that he has contact with the child and therefore the mother for many years. That assuming it's his of course.


That was my first thought about the birth control. Yeah, it's been a rough few days.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

jane2017 said:


> That was my first thought about the birth control. Yeah, it's been a rough few days.





Before driving yourself crazy, demand a paternity test. Rough days, if it is his child your days are going to get much rougher. My wife's affair produced twin boys, yes we are reconciling, and there are some pretty dark days, months, well let's just say it's difficult. Over three years put it is beginning to get much better. I wouldn't, nor could I, go through those three years again. Best of luck to you.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Our marriage is great! I was the WW, but I got a lot of validating, supportive therapy, and a lot of support and validation from my husband, and I'm committed to loving and supporting him just the same. Our anniversary is in just 12 days and I cannot wait to celebrate it with him!! I think I'd singlehandedly try to pull the moon out of the sky if she asked me to. And believe me, recovering from mental illness is as difficult as doing just that...


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Took me about 3 yrs get stable. I believe way too many people in marriage are naive about infidelity and put their spouses on a pedestal.
My lessons learnt, only trust yourself 100%...anyone can betray you, your parents, your own kids, and your spouse.
Always save strength to yourself and know that you can make it in your own, marriage doesnt define me.
My W and I are doing good, better and worse than pre-A in different areas, it feels like we will make it and love each other, she did and does lots counseling, she was untreated CSA 
I have hobbies am totally addicted to and this helped me massively in recovery. I also got promoted at work and make much more than her by far. 
Is not easy, it sucks actually, is a life tragedy that one most work thru no matter if R or D

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Took me about 3 yrs get stable. I believe way too many people in marriage are naive about infidelity and put their spouses on a pedestal.
> My lessons learnt, only trust yourself 100%...anyone can betray you, your parents, your own kids, and your spouse.
> Always save strength to yourself and know that you can make it in your own, marriage doesnt define me.
> My W and I are doing good, better and worse than pre-A in different areas, it feels like we will make it and love each other, she did and does lots counseling, she was untreated CSA
> ...


To have a good marriage trust is vital. Ok lots of people cheat, but just as many don't.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> To have a good marriage trust is vital. Ok lots of people cheat, but just as many don't.





while I think trust is vital for marriage or any relationship, trusting 100% or blind trust are actually foolish. I trust my wife, she had blind trust that I foolishly gave her, and for that reason I will only be able to trust at about 97-98% from here on. In my opinion any relationship can work with that amount of trust, and I don't expect my wife to trust me at 100%, I think that's foolish. At any time, at any moment, i believe full trust at 100% to be foolish.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

drifting on said:


> while I think trust is vital for marriage or any relationship, trusting 100% or blind trust are actually foolish. I trust my wife, she had blind trust that I foolishly gave her, and for that reason I will only be able to trust at about 97-98% from here on. In my opinion any relationship can work with that amount of trust, and I don't expect my wife to trust me at 100%, I think that's foolish. At any time, at any moment, i believe full trust at 100% to be foolish.


To me its not blind trust, but making a decision to trust despite our weaknesses. I have been hurt and let down by several people in my life, but it doesn't stop me from trusting my husband. I wouldn't be with a man who I didn't trust.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

An affair, in my view, especially one with emotional silliness and acting like a teenager, reveals and reflects character flaws and personal weakness. Also in my view, character does not change. Behavior can change, but that is conditioned by environment and an awakened sense of consequence. Character is immutable. Recognizing that is what the non-cheating spouse (I deliberately avoid the term betrayed) has a hard time with. You are not who I thought you were. That never goes away. Shame on me when I forget that. Shame on me for being a poor judge of character in the first place. That cannot be repaired. There is nothing to repair. I will never see you the same way again. Sure, you do some good things. But your character has less substance than cheesecloth, and I suffered for that. My entire family suffered and continues to suffer for that.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I wonder how much of reconciliation though (at least wanting to attempt) is driven not only by each personality but also the situation (i.e. someone who has no kids may not be willing to reconcile whereas if put in the same situation with kids, they would), IDK?

If I look at my W and I (both have always been faithful), if she ever cheated on me there would be zero chance of any sort of reconciliation attempt (I know some will say that unless you are in the situation how can you say with certainty, but to me it is black and white). On the other hand, if I cheated on my W, I do think she would attempt to reconcile. The difference between us and how we would likely react would come down to our differing personalities and the situation we are in.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> An affair, in my view, especially one with emotional silliness and acting like a teenager, reveals and reflects character flaws and personal weakness. Also in my view, character does not change. Behavior can change, but that is conditioned by environment and an awakened sense of consequence. Character is immutable. Recognizing that is what the non-cheating spouse (I deliberately avoid the term betrayed) has a hard time with. You are not who I thought you were. That never goes away. Shame on me when I forget that. Shame on me for being a poor judge of character in the first place.




Very well said, and true character doesn't change, but you can learn and put in place walls or boundaries to recognize this bad character. So while one may change and their character does not, doesn't mean this person will cheat again if they become healthy through therapy.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> To me its not blind trust, but making a decision to trust despite our weaknesses. I have been hurt and let down by several people in my life, but it doesn't stop me from trusting my husband. I wouldn't be with a man who I didn't trust.




A big difference between blind trust and even trusting at 100%. Blind trust is trysting without any reservation whatsoever even when faced with huge red flags, at least in my opinion. Trusting 100% doesn't mean you won't oblivious to red flags, you'll question them.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

drifting on said:


> Very well said, and true character doesn't change, but you can learn and put in place walls or boundaries to recognize this bad character. So while one may change and their character does not, doesn't mean this person will cheat again if they become healthy through therapy.


It is not really all that important to me whether it happens again. That may change. It has been about 5 years. We are still together for practical reasons. We have 4 young daughters and there is more to the picture. It is that someone has unintentionally shown themselves for who they are and what they are capable of, which, in this case, pretty much involves the destruction of my family. That is something you cannot unlearn about someone.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> It is not really all that important to me whether it happens again. That may change. It has been about 5 years. We are still together for practical reasons. We have 4 young daughters and there is more to the picture. It is that someone has unintentionally shown themselves for who they are and what they are capable of, which, in this case, pretty much involves the destruction of my family. That is something you cannot unlearn about someone.





Quoted for truth. 

I have read many of your posts here, they are very helpful, very well written. Many of your posts steered me through my times of being lost. Just wanted to say thank you.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

drifting on said:


> Quoted for truth.
> 
> I have read many of your posts here, they are very helpful, very well written. Many of your posts steered me through my times of being lost. Just wanted to say thank you.


I don't paint a pretty picture because it is not a pretty scene. I offer my unvarnished view. If it has helped you, then that is a good. Thanks for the kind words.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> I don't paint a pretty picture because it is not a pretty scene. I offer my unvarnished view. If it has helped you, then that is a good. Thanks for the kind words.




What I needed at that time and still today, was to hear the truth. Your posts helped me to see that truth.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

In the last few days I've had a glimpse of what our marriage could look like at some point. I'm visiting family, so my husband and I are apart. We talk on the phone a lot. It's been good most of the time, I miss him, there is a renewed sense of intimacy. It's obviously not what we had before, but it's something. We had a few arguments but nothing compared to just a few weeks ago, and I feel more than just hurt and anger, which was the case until very recently. So basically I feel there is hope, that we have something to build upon. 

The guilt is eating him alive. He talks about how he sees me hurting and that's the worst thing. So I guess he is reaching remorse. That is what I need to heal.


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