# gender inequality - housework



## cadence (Dec 18, 2007)

Why is it that most men are still not doing their fair share of housework.....It simply cant be called generalising when the studies support the fact that it is MOST (not all of course)

Page 31 of the second article is particularly interesting as it shows te average weekly hours spent on housework by women is 32 and by men just 7.8...which may explain why some men claim it only takes a couple of hours a day which clearly isnt true for most women....

http://www.unc.edu/~pnc/gs04.pdf

http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/cde/nsfhwp/nsfh73.pdf


Why is it that this still happens and what can men and women do individually and colllectivelly to change it


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

THE GENDER DIVISION OF LABOR â€œKeeping Houseâ€� and Occupational Segregation in the United States G

Gender, Employment and Housework

A better link if you have PDF problems.

draconis


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

On the other hand, husbands who work relatively few hours do contribute more to housework (Coverman and Sheley 1986; Gershuny and Robinson 1988). Hsbands’ contribution to household work is affected by both husbands' employment hours and by wives' employment status and hours (Coverman, 1985) affect. In addition, Goldsheider and Waite (1991) report that, among dual-earner couples, husbands' share in housework is influenced more by wives' employment hours than by their own.

and men's contributions by excluding such male household tasks as home and auto repair. Men are more likely to engage in such "do it yourself" activities in the U.S. than in Japan, and U.S., men report almost as many hours for these tasks as for the tasks examined here.

(So by excluding the things guys tend to do and only including the cooking, cleaning etc no wonder men are thought of as doing less in the house hold, when by the study itself says that men do as much around the house not considered housework as women do that is considered)

Find a study that includes what men/women do for work, and how many hours they actually work altogether and you have a discussion. Both these reports are cherry picked to say men don't do enough in the house once considered "women's work". What it doesn't say is that men often work 50% more outside of the house then women. It also doesn't comment on the traditional mens work that even though more men are doing house work very few women are taking on the mens tasks such as fixing the house, car, doing the lawn and snow removel etc.

draconis


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Throughout the world, men spend more time on market work, while women spend more time on homework. In the United States and other rich countries, men average 5.2 hours of market work a day and 2.7 hours of homework each day, while women average 3.4 hours of market work and 4.5 hours of homework per day. Adding these up, men work an average of 7.9 hours per day, while women work an average of—drum roll, please—7.9 hours per day.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many women with demanding careers tell me that it is women working full-time in the market, not women overall, who work more than comparable men. This study cannot settle that question because it does not report work time separately for people with and without market jobs. But if women with careers work more than men, while women overall work the same amount as men, then women without market jobs must work less than men. 


New study: Men work as much as women do. - By Joel Waldfogel - Slate Magazine

The findings shows that overall Americans work the hardest – with men working 476 minutes a day and women 472.

It's true: women do work longer hours than their men| News | This is London

draconis


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

I think the real thrust isn't gender inequality with housework. Becuase that is like saying gender inequality in the market place.

Lets be real.

1) What is the travel time to and from work.
A) How stressful is that.
B) How physical is it.
2) What is the hours for pay you work.
A) How stressful is that job.
B) How physical is that job.
C) Income.
D) % of your income spent on the house spouce or kids.
E) % of your income you can spend on yourself.
3) How many hours do you do in the house.
A) How stressful is that.
B) How physical is it.
4) How many hours do you do outside the house (yard, repairs etc.)
A) How physical is that.
B) How stressful is it.
5) How many hours do you sit a day.
6) How many hours do you sleep.
7) How much time do you have to enjoy the day.
8) Educational factor
9) Anxiety/depression factor.
10) Physical handicap factor.
11) Mental handicap factor.

I think when you figure it based like this you'd get an entire different and a more real perspective of who does what in a household.

I work up to 44 hours at my store and 10-15 hours via the computer from my house. My wife works 40 hours. With all I do her job is much more physical and more stressful as well. I can't look at her and say wow I worked more hours because the fact is I could never physically do what she does evey day or for that matter anyday. Nor could I as easily handle the stress. So to me she works harder when things are truely factored, much harder. She also goes to college as well. Hour for hour she might do as much as me, however when you factor it all in she works 2 or 3 times my output. If you factor in my disability she still ends up with 35% more effort then me.

So should the chores be split 50/50? In my eyes no, but even when I was much healthier I did most of the work and did a physically demanding job that had a turn over of 4 to 1 a year, I still did most of the house work and ALL of the outside work. Fair? Does it matter? Only if you really think so, I saw the first time all four of my kids walked, and heard all of them say their first words. That is more important to me. I have the house cleaned as I like it to be and the food is made how I like to eat it.

I never found the housework to be a bother, a load or two of landry, and dishes a day. Pick up after the two little ones normally as I go through the house I never overstep something. Six meals a day with only 2 cooked and two microwaved. Shopping once a week and the purging of the trash when I go outside, or the kittylitter twice a week and the fish tank once a week.

I normally throw in a laundry load just after starting to cook and do a load of dishes while cooking. Most meals take 10-15 minutes of actual work even if it takes an hour to cook the food you are not actually working for an hour unless you are doing other things.

Now the real question isn't if men/or women work more or if there is an equality in the work and who works harder with everything factored. The real question is do homemakers get the credit they deserve. For that I would have to say no, most do not.

draconis


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## cadence (Dec 18, 2007)

Hi Draconis , I totally agree with you that there is little recognition for this work, which is incidentaly because traditionally it was considered 'womens work' 

In terms of men doing the majority of outdoor chores I have to say this in my experience and the others I have spoken to take very little time in comparison to running the house....the chore you mention 
taking out bins once per week total 5 minute
lawn once per fortnight in summer (less in winter) 1 hour
shoveling snow (no idea to be honest I live in Australia )
occasional jobs ie changing lighbulbs mending fence - total 1 hour max per week on average...

as a total the outside chores done by my husband per week and checking with a cuple of married friends totalled no more than 1.5 -2 hours per week....

A far as I undertsnad the studies include all work in running a home including insde and outside...I have access to several othere studies that include all task however as part of my studies I would need to dig them out - perhaps I can find them online will look and post if I can...

I understad that we are all differnt and I admre your perseverance with what you are doin and the health issues you have (I read in another thread) 'My point is that you are the exception...MOST husbands are doing less than there wives even when utside tasks are included...My question is why and what can we do collectively to bring about change
PS Merry Christmas


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

I will show just how well data can be twisted.

Blacks are sent to prison in the US 8 times more then whites by percentage.

Now you can read this many ways.

Blacks commit more crimes then whites.

Blacks are more likely to be criminal.

The justice system is racist.

Blacks grow up in areas with less chances of options, or hopes.

Blacks are more poor then whites and can not get good lawyers.

The US is bias against blacks.

Blacks live in higher crime areas.

you get the picture.......

Now here is a fact that you left out.

Men work harder through out there life and die younger then women because of the stress and strain they put on their bodies.

Now the real point you should make to feel better is even if men work harder and do as much or even a bit more then women after the couple retire the women tend to work more hours then the men do.

As far as the snow thing goes last week we where hit by three snow storms. Two of them took me about 12 hours each to clean up the other a dusting took about an hour.

Most women don't credit the real work a guy does fixing the house. When I owned my own home I worked on it an average of four hours a week fixing it up, and that didn't include doing the lawn, my rose garden fixing the cars taking out the trash daily or anything else.

If I sampled the men I know, 95% would say they work HARDER then there girlfriends/wives, and work longer hours plus make more per hour. There are three exceptions me being one of them (my wife works a much harder job then I do).

Also since all my male friends have been cheated on by my sampling I could say all men will be cheated on by a woman. It isn't realistic to say such though, and it is unfair to generalize like that.

As I have said previous you have to look at the bigger picture of how hard and how stressful the job actual is, plus all other factors.

Many of those reports are skewed. Reading into one of them it gave women 2 hours of "work" time for laundry. The actual amount of time worked is far less because you can rest or do other things inbetween like I am doing now.

One reason those reports are skewed is because they say on average men get 1.5 hours more of relaxing time. What it doesn't say is women sleep 2.5 hours more then men which isn't accounted for.

Maybe your husband doesn't do enough, or your friends husbands, but it depends on who you ask and what you ask on what will be said. How many men work jobs their girlfriends/wives can't do. How physical is the job they do?

Their are far to many factors to consider.

In France and Italy women do work longer then men but most of the rest of the industrial world men work longer then women and at harder, more stressful jobs then women. Women however "work" into retirement (another factor often left out).

Each case and household has to be looked at differently. I have a friend whose husband travels away for four days a week for his job as a firefighter. Of course he can do as much house work as she does, but in the end she gives him the credit he deserves and their household works because they are a great couple.

I am not trying to be a bigot here but the point is that none of the reports can really be used because they do not use all the data and all the things that are factors.

draconis


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## cadence (Dec 18, 2007)

draconis said:


> .
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Draconis, your kidding right...RAOFL here....men do not die younger because of working harder...that realy is comedic...the research shows the likely cause of their earlier date rates is linked to comminucation and reluctance to visit doctors...
Women are recognised as setting up beter social support networks for themselselves and being more inclined to seek medical help....there are also hormonal reasons that support longer life span in women as well as the fact young men are notorious for partaking in risk taking activities (thus raising the male death rate further) ....I actually am able to tell you this confidently as it was part of an essay I wrote...it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with had work....lol...if it did mothers with young children and working full time would be dropping like flies...nice mysogynistic theory though...perpetrated by a male dominated society


*f I sampled the men I know, 95% would say they work HARDER then there girlfriends/wives, and work longer hours plus make more per hour*

Draconis this is another beauty...of course they would say they work harder....most men overestimate the work they do...as we have seen in the studies...its ironic that you even highlight a further injustice in saying 'they make more money' Of course they do...the jobs traditionally filled by men have always been higher paid whilst traditionally female jobs are the lowest paid ie nursing, teaching etc.



Psychology Today: Why Men Die Young

Why Guys Die Sooner



Why Women Live Longer than Men


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

cadence said:


> ....most men overestimate the work they do...


Everyone does this including women that say being a stay at home means they work 40+ hours a week.

draconis


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

As for men dieing younger from jobs etc, who dominates EVERY ARMY around the world. How many women die fighting (their job) then men?

How many more men die from gang on gang violence not a job per se but a life style.

How many more men are killed on the job then women?

laugh it up, your wrong.

draconis


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Verbrugge (1983) also predicted that during the next 50–75 years, the sex mortality differential would narrow because the multiple roles of em-ployment and domestic responsibilities of men and women are becoming more similar.

Monograph - Chapter 8 - Why Men Die Younger: Causes of Mortality Differences by Sex

Men with 'routine' jobs die younger - World News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

Bonhomme says men are more likely than women to have jobs requiring dangerous and/or strenuous exertion. When this is the case, denying pain becomes a necessary part of earning a living -- and it carries over into the rest of a man's life. This helps explain why black men tend to have poorer health and shorter life expectancy than white men.

The Endangered Species - Men?

As if that weren't enough, men tend to work in more dangerous settings than women, and thus account for 90% of on-the-job fatalities

Why Men Die Young - TIME

Much of the other reasons men die is actually job related. I point it out here.

It is a proven fact that the more hours you work the more likely you will smoke and more likely you will smoke more. Who works more men, who smokes more men 26% to 22%.

When at work you are more likely to eat unhealthy food. Who works more men. Who has a worse diet men.

When you work many hours you often do not have the free time for a gym or to work out. WHo works more men, who works more hours men.

We force men as a society that men must take care of the family. When a husband and wife are sick and only one can afford to go to the doctor who goes, the woman because it is the guys "job" to care for her.

Let alone many men can't take the time off to go to to the doctors because it might effect his income and therefore the faMILY.

Further if you look at the studies from the 1800's men lived longer then women (not counting war deaths). This was a time that men and women did simular work on the farm. During the 1930's women lived only 1 year more then men. Now it it is a 7 year diffence. I don't think in the last 100 years hormones have changed that much.

draconis


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## cadence (Dec 18, 2007)

draconis said:


> As for men dieing younger from jobs etc, who dominates EVERY ARMY around the world. How many women die fighting (their job) then men? Not to mention that women traditionally have not even been given the opportunity to partake in btt as they were automatically rejected based on the fact they were women....talk about swayed statistics
> 
> *Many LESS than women who have died throughout history doing what was considered their job ...CHILDBIRTH...*
> 
> ...



Look Draconis, I realise that as a man in our male dominated society you will be well and truely used to having the last say.. any woman or man who trues to challenge the status quo is quickly shut down by people like yourself who have been socialised to ignore female oppression.....this has happened throughout history and as a result its a rare husband who cleans the toilets at home....sure there are exceptions but they are RARE....

To true and justify male dominance through pointing out how through history violent men have fought with each other, thus killing themselves in large numbers is udicrous...


I wil not change your mind....it was never my intention.. My intenetion was only to spark thought and hopefully some pen minded people may start to consider the covert oppression that still occurs which is masked by attitudes that you have highlighted. 


I will bw out here and agree to disagree with you...but I leave you with these words..

"*The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn." 
—Gloria Steinem*


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## cadence (Dec 18, 2007)

draconis said:


> As for men dieing younger from jobs etc, who dominates EVERY ARMY around the world. How many women die fighting (their job) then men? Not to mention that women traditionally have not even been given the opportunity to partake in btt as they were automatically rejected based on the fact they were women....talk about swayed statistics
> 
> *Many LESS than women who have died throughout history doing what was considered their job ...CHILDBIRTH...*
> 
> ...



Look Draconis, I realise that as a man in our male dominated society you will be well and truely used to having the last say.. any woman or man who trues to challenge the status quo is quickly shut down by people like yourself who have been socialised to ignore female oppression.....this has happened throughout history and as a result its a rare husband who cleans the toilets at home....sure there are exceptions but they are RARE....

To true and justify male dominance through pointing out how through history violent men have fought with each other, thus killing themselves in large numbers is ludicrous...


I wil not change your mind....it was never my intention.. My intention was only to spark thought and hopefully some open minded people may start to consider the covert oppression that still occurs which is masked by attitudes that you have highlighted. 


I will bow out here and agree to disagree with you...but I leave you with these words..

"*The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn." 
—Gloria Steinem*


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

"The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn." 
—Gloria Steinem

Kind of says it all that you back things up with a feminist, further you should read her speach from the University of New England where she said that she was wrong that her extreme views where to get things even and most take it to far the otherway.

Also read through my posts, I respond the same to men and women alike and often come down harder on men then I do on women, if you can find a single place I am sexist please point it out. I have to show this to my wife and some of my female friends that you would lump me into oppressing women. I grew up under a mother that broke so many barriers for women, and their is no one in the world I look up to more. Read every post I mention my wife find one place where I seem to oppress her or my daughters.

As far as women in the army I know in the US they lowered the standard for women making it easier for them to get in and allow them entitlements not accorded to men. Keep in mind to I come from a long history of military families and both my mother and father served, I am proud of both, but it doesn't change some facts. Yes for many years many women could not serve. To this day women do not have to sign up for the draft as men do.

In the end you can make the numbers say anything you want. I post on a board that asks tens of thousands of people poll questions. Often they will change the question based on how people are responding to get the answers they want. They have even stated this. It is called front loading polls.

draconis


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## Jewel (Nov 5, 2007)

Draconis, I think you have made some really great points. I think that doing house work is hard work, but so is a full time job. Statistics are so hard to trust now, the truth can be warped in so many different ways to benefit whoever it is intended to.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Thanks Jewel that was a part of my point. The other being there are so many factors to consider not just the house work. On the other hand I think it comes down to the couple. Really every one should do something in the house, and as much as they can with the kids.

draconis


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