# Aggressive Negotiations



## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

OK, so I have been here reading nearly every post for the past few weeks and I have to say that I see a common tone with the way people handle affairs. Not the long term, but the short term.

Here is my Logic: 

It all boils down to fight or flight. I find it extremely advantageous, as a LS, to force the WS into a fight or flight decision. The data suggests that "TIME" is our enemy in the sense that; the longer we give Wayward Spouses (WS) to decide what THEY want to do, the less likely the chance they will choose to save the marriage. 

I recognize that therapists say to "reason things out" and that the LS should not pressure the WS, but when it comes to the choice of "do i work on the marriage" or " Do I ask for a divorce?" The more we wait, the less likely we are to even get them to go into MC.

I see all kinds of posts here with " what do i do now?", usually in the first days of discovery. My advice is and remains " cut off all ties to the OW/OM and force a choice. WE ARE NOT DEALING WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE A GREAT MORAL COMPASS. We are dealing with people who would be stoned to death in the streets of Saudi Arabia.

I do not think we should be asking for enslavement or complete submission for life, but we have a right to demand an immediate commitment or a clean break. And by clean break i mean they don't get to go from one hen house to another.

By Aggressive Negotiations, I mean: pick up the phone, dial the OM/OW and tell the WS to say " Its over" If they don't, then get out. When a WS is caught, it should be the most shameful and remorseful moment for them. If they do not agree to it then, they never will. And the posts here validate that. How many posts drag out for a month or two before we see " Well we are getting a divorce"?

Aggressive negotiations further means that we NEVER make a decision from a point of weakness. That is a recipe for self-loathing. " OK you can have some time" or "I will change everything for you" are statements made from a position of weakness and low self esteem. Every LS has a Moral Right to ask for transparency, complete separation from OM/OW, and 1000% effort to save a marriage. If these demands are not met, we have ZERO chance of saving the union. Period.

I realize that everyone gets scared. Scared of losing their investment of time, money , emotions and more. This fear does not change the choices that our spouses have made or are about to make in regards to our marriage. When it comes to an affair, Your feelings never mattered. Our spouses Didn't necessarily do this to hurt us, they weren't even thinking about us. They were thinking of themselves. Likewise, in most cases, your feelings wont matter as a determining factor in their choice to stay or go. Therefore, I reason that the best course of action is to literally force the decision, because if it is no now.. It will be no in four months and a year from now as well.


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## paramore (Jan 11, 2011)

Oh I get what you're throwing down Twotime, what is the kicker for me is that my husband in the past has viewed me as controlling, so me demanding that he has no contact with OW and asking for full transparency is adding to that view of me. I used to be very into us having our own privacy/being our own person, but I am having a really tough time getting him to understand that now I am insisting on the transparency not to be controlling but as a means to work on building our trust back up. 

What I am wondering is are you saying I tell him you have 6 months to decide if you want to work on us? You have 2 months to decide on getting counseling? I know I deserve a chance from him to save our marriage, but he has healing to do too, as we both dishonored our marriage.

I owe it to him to allow him to the chance to heal, as well as healing myself. I mean if I demand this/that it's just gonna push him further away. Dontcha think???


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Let me put it to yout his way.

Would you rather have a broken arm, or a divorce?

I would take a broken arm, as I am sure most people would.

Part two: Would you wait 2 months to get to a doctor?

Im not talking about 6 months or 2 months, Im talking about 6 days or 2 days.

If your marriage is spilling blood all over the floor, do not wait to seek help. Crisis situations call for Crisis management. It needs to be dealt with as such.

If you both blew it, then you owe it to eachother to handle this with a sense of urgency. You may want to let him know that when you go to MC, the therapistm might very well tell him that YOU are too controlling, but whatever they say, you need to hear it NOW.


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## paramore (Jan 11, 2011)

I'd rather have my arm CHOPPED off than get a divorce lol. Thing is, he won't go, he's not sure where to go from here, and everything I say to him is going in one ear and out the other, he has so much resentment and anger towards me, it's preventing him from moving forward. He says he's glad for me that I am going to a counseler, he is just not sure what he wants to do, and unfortunately I cannot force him to see a counseler, I cannot force him to deal with his resentment towards me. I am trying to be as urgent as I can lol. He's stuck in this spot, regardless of whether we move forward together as a couple or not, he cannot stay in this place, or it will blow his next possible relationship out of the water. I can't put a time limit on him dealing with his feelings.


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## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

paramore said:


> I'd rather have my arm CHOPPED off than get a divorce lol. Thing is, he won't go, he's not sure where to go from here, and everything I say to him is going in one ear and out the other, he has so much resentment and anger towards me, it's preventing him from moving forward. He says he's glad for me that I am going to a counseler, he is just not sure what he wants to do, and unfortunately I cannot force him to see a counseler, I cannot force him to deal with his resentment towards me. I am trying to be as urgent as I can lol. He's stuck in this spot, regardless of whether we move forward together as a couple or not, he cannot stay in this place, or it will blow his next possible relationship out of the water. I can't put a time limit on him dealing with his feelings.


I agree with this thread more that I've ever agreed with anything in my life. I've said it on another thread that the moment the LS finds it, it's now or never and the marriage has moved into the all or nothing stage.

Paramore, indeed, you must be urgent but, if you've had your own indiscretions, you should be a little more contrite and less aggressive. You don't want to be the pot if you know what I mean. I will say this, it sounds as if he doesn't want to fix things right now. I would ask him, do you want fix this or not.


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## paramore (Jan 11, 2011)

Oh I am very contrite, I have expressed to him how sorry I am, I feel his pain, he is completely in the right to have these feelings towards me. I am not really being aggressive towards him, I am simply giving him my opinions on what he needs to do for himself, I am leaving it completely up to him, and doing what I need to do for me. He's not sure if he wants to work things out, he is back and forth, I have already asked him that. I am in the all or nothing stage, all I can do at this point I believe is do what I need to do to fix me, and continue making myself a better person and with time he can see I am not the person that he has all the anger and resentment for anymore.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Do you think threats will work? I've discovered they don't unless you genuinely put the fear of Yahweh in them. And then what? Your husband/wife/S.O. knows you mean business but are they going to be afraid of you too? Every pairing is unique I suppose. Will they love you more because you 'fought' for them? Or will they just be that much more angry and scared of you? Only you can judge that.


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## paramore (Jan 11, 2011)

I don't think what twotime is saying is threatening. Just stating plain and simple is you need to stand up for yourself, and take the necessary steps, they choose how to react. It would be threatening if you said it over and over and over again and not acting.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Do you think threats will work?
> 
> Will they love you more because you 'fought' for them? Or will they just be that much more angry and scared of you? Only you can judge that.


Threats are different from ultimatums. In an Ultimatum, you follow through. 

Its not about fear. Its all about Love,even if you have to let it go.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I want to add that aggressive negotiations are all part of my tough love approach to my confrontation, I must addmit I was scared sh*tless. I didnt want to loose her, she could have walked, but she didn't.
In my research before the confrontation I believe I acted correctly. I used what I have heard and read and applied it and it worked. The calm and assertive tone, the no begging or cring, I told how it was going to be.

The messed up part is... if it didn't work and she walked I still believe I acted correctly.

I hope that makes sense to everybody. I am in the tough love crowd when it come to dealing with infidelity.


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## baldmale (Dec 29, 2010)

I agree that delivering a short term ultimatum can be a very effective tool in snapping your wayward back to reality. When I found out about my WW's affair on a Monday, I told her on that Wednesday that by Saturday she was either coming home to work on our marriage (NC, EP, etc.) or I was filing for D the following Monday. I told her the choice was hers, I was not threatening her, and that I hoped she chose me and our marriage. But also that I realized that I can't control her actions, only mine, and this was my response to her infidelity. 

She initially said she just wanted "some time" to figure things out (translation: see if OM was going to truly be there for her in a reality based relationship), but to be involved in such a triangle was not going to work for me. I told her I had given her plenty of time: like the last 7 or 8 years of my life for example, and now the choice is hers. I also put on paper a schedule of times for each of us to have our 2 year old daughter in the coming weeks...again starting Saturday.

I firmly believe that this type of swift and sure action "woke her up" in a way that feet dragging never would have, and has potentially saved our marriage (still a work in progress). It's surely a bit of tough love to "force" a decision very quickly, but I was not going to enable her wayward actions going forward, nor be a doormat while she cake-ate.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Great post !!

*applause*


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I can only speak for myself, but the direct approach seemed to be what snapped my DS out of his fog.

The night I found out, he was lying about the extent of the affair. When I thought it was just emotional, I kept saying the only reason we had a 50/50 chance of staying married was because it wasn't physical. Several hours later, when he confessed the physical part, my response was "Well that's it then.... we're getting divorced." He says it was at that moment, any lingering doubt vanished. He knew with 100% certainty he wanted a life with me.

Before my DS confessed the PA part, he wanted me to stay with him for him, not just because of the kids. After his confession, he kept saying "think of the kids". At that point he no longer cared why I gave him a chance, he just wanted a chance. 

I could also sense the shift in his feelings and attitude after my divorce statement. I sent him away for the weekend with our kids, while I composed myself. It was the day after his return that he embraced the concept of full disclosure and transparency. He was reading online what, as the DS, he should be doing for me, the LS.

So far so good. We're almost 2 months since D-day and seeing a MC once a week. I'm hopeful, but it's not easy even with a spouse that seems eager and willing to rebuild. So those of you that have to suffer a DS that's not willing to break contact, my heart breaks for you. In my situation, the OW's husband also found out, so contact was severed on both ends. 

I do think both LSs knowing they have a DS is important. I hate to think of what would've happened if my husband had never gotten caught. The issues in himself and our marriage would've never been addressed, almost guaranteeing that he would've cheated again someday. Who's to say I wouldn't have eventually fallen into the trap of an EA? At least now we're hopefully building a stronger bond and marriage, one that could last over time.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Asking a WS to call it off is not enough, they must do it in your presence. Speaker phone on, and saying " i choose my spouse, not you.. this is over" 
THose words will restore your faith in her or him... they will take away the options for the cheater, and you two will finally be working as a team again.

Being a two time loser.. I have some experience with it.. trust me it works.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> Asking a WS to call it off is not enough, they must do it in your presence. Speaker phone on, and saying " i choose my spouse, not you.. this is over"
> THose words will restore your faith in her or him... they will take away the options for the cheater, and you two will finally be working as a team again.
> 
> Being a two time loser.. I have some experience with it.. trust me it works.


What if your spouse is living in another country for school? I "suspected" the EA/PA on February 18th. I haven't seen her since January 16th of 2011. I've only confronted her about it over the phone. She cried, but didn't admit to anything and said they were just friends. The evidence, though, is very strong. I'm going to see her for the first time since finding out about this, once again, "suspected" EA/PA in a week's time.

I'll only have 10 days to do whatever the hell it is that I plan to do. Then we'll be apart again for 1 1/2 months until she moves back to her home country for the summer. Living apart makes it so much harder, but should I still take the ultimatum approach with having only a 10 day visit? I read how another poster stated her brother or something gave his wife a box with 2 brochures inside. One for a guide through a divorce and the other a guide to marriage counciling and gave her 5 days to choose. He also took over all of the finances. I'm seriously considering doing this when I get there, but again, I have such a short window to do this if I want it to happen face to face.

If she doesn't give me an answer within that window, she'll have 1 1/2 months to talk to the OM, but he's in Afghanistan so she'll have no physical contact anyway. Is it already too late for an ultimatum? I already have the "whatever happens happens" mindset, and I'm already starting to come to terms with it. I want our marriage to last, but I'm prepared for the worse. I read other posts where people have said that the longer the DS goes without confessing, or FORCED into confession, the less of a chance they ever will. I would rather this be handled now vs. 5 years from now if it happens again, you know? 

Through our talks about what happened over that weekend, she finally opened up and told me she was no longer sexually attracted to me. I already have a plan as to how I'm going to approach this while I'm there, and I'm confident it might work, but since reading the posts here, it seems like I'm taking the wrong approach. It's like, I'm trying to fix her not being sexually attracted to me, instead of approaching her for the truth about what happened with the OM. I'm trying to fix what made her do it, vs. what actually happened because of it. Does that make sense?


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

You know what happens to people who have cancer, and dont take care of it?

Yep... they die.

It would be different if you could actually work on it each day, but talking about it for 10 days, then sending your spouse back into the lion's den is suicide.

I realize that you are not going to just say " stop going to school" but i fear anything other than that will result in failure.

You have a very tough decision to make. If this were me... and please be advised that this is very risky... 

I would cut her off completely. no pick up from the airport, no welcoming home, nothing. You have a 10% chance at best, that this will let her see what her future holds without you and it may motivate her to come to you seeking reconcilliation. There is a 90% chance that it willnot work at all and make things worse... but if she goes back to school in 10 days.. you have a 0% chance of success. 

You are in a worst case scenario. Sorry.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

Like... Zoyks, Scoob!


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Saffron said:


> I do think both LSs knowing they have a DS is important. I hate to think of what would've happened if my husband had never gotten caught. The issues in himself and our marriage would've never been addressed, almost guaranteeing that he would've cheated again someday. Who's to say I wouldn't have eventually fallen into the trap of an EA? At least now we're hopefully building a stronger bond and marriage, one that could last over time.


the only Issue I am having is my wife is semi working at it. She is doing better to make me feel better, and understanding about me being down at times. But she needs to start "walking the walk" instead of just talking. I plan on sitting down and letting her know that tonight. I can't force her, but let her know she needs to start.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> You know what happens to people who have cancer, and dont take care of it?
> 
> Yep... they die.
> 
> ...


twotimeloser - 

Yep, my situation is not as easy as I wish it was which is why I'm kind of just saying **** it. I can cut her off completely right now if I wanted, but it makes no sense to. I honestly rather just stay civil and be friends for the sake of our child and our current situation. I know she strayed, I know why, I'll try to fix it, with or without a confession, but I won't get my hopes up. 

Honestly, I would rather just stay good friends for now, have fun when we see each other, no lovey dubby ****, unless she initiates, and no strings will ever be attached. If one day down the road she tells me she's done, I will have had plenty of time to prepare for it since I'm leaving my everlasting love at the door starting 3 weeks ago. I should probably be more emotional, call her to ask why this or that, but honestly, if she did cheat, it's not even worth my time. 

You said I'm in the worst possible scenario, you're ****ing right I am. So why stress myself out over it? If this is the beginning of the end, I'm going out with a bang. No seriously, I'm going to bang her when I see her. Gotta take advantage while I can. Pig, I know, but I feel content with this mindset. I'm smart, she's smart, she'll come to her senses one way or another. She knows I know, she can't lie for ****. I just don't care at this point. 

We talked on the phone for 3 hours last week and there was never a dull moment, talked nothing about what happened. She made a poor decision. She's still my best friend, I'm still hers. We're each other's first long term relationship and first love. She's still the only woman out there I trust with my son.

I can't explain the feeling; we just live all out for each other.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Either way, you might want to start preparing yourself to be a single dad. It was a fun time for me, i grew really close to my kids at that time.


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> Either way, you might want to start preparing yourself to be a single dad. It was a fun time for me, i grew really close to my kids at that time.


:iagree:
I am a single dad. I took my 3 year old son with me to Europe. Been here since October of 2010. My wife is alone in the states, hence uh, everything that happened... 

That's why it's easy for me to just accept and be content with the situation and either make the best of it, or make a clean break. I have no monitary worries, no debt, nothing is in her name. I do have my son, he's happy and it just works...


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## paramore (Jan 11, 2011)

sounds kind of like you already have your answer....


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