# Variables to consider when deciding to R



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

After reading all these stories over the last few years, I’d thought I’d attempt to put together a “primer” that might be a starting point for a BS who is deciding between R and D. Just one man’s opinion. Feel free to add your two cents.

*Recommended action - Divorce 

-	The CS has been caught cheating before and has already had a second chance.
-	The CS continues to lie about the A
-	The CS will not discuss the A
-	The CS refuses to be transparent 
-	The CS refuses to end “all” contact; quitting a job if necessary
-	The CS does not demonstrate immediate, unconditional remorse
-	The CS tries to protect the AP
-	The CS refuses to adopt new marital boundaries
-	The CS refuses to engage in regular sexual activity, equal or greater to what you (may have) discovered they did with their AP.
-	Your personal morals/beliefs won’t allow for any second chances

High Risk to Reconcile

-	The CS was in a long term affair
-	The CS was discovered to be involved in multiple affairs (serial cheater)
-	The CS was planning an exit affair
-	The CS was dumped by the AP, leaving the BS as plan B
- The CS cheated within the first two years of marriage
*

If any of the above situations exist with your spouse’s betrayal, consider these stop and warning signs. Even if they don’t, there are no guarantees. R is at its best, is an extremely difficult endeavor.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Something I thought of. Sometimes you hear from people in R, my marriage is the best it has ever been, however usually when you hear the history of their marriage it was a really dysfunctional one before the affair. So it being better then it was doesn't actually mean it is a good one. I suspect if you are a BS who thought your marriage was perfect and you had the "dream" so to speak. If you are the type to idealize your spouse. If you took pride in that I think eventually you will decide you settled if you R.


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

Variables to consider.

Do you want to remain in a relationship with a person who f*&ed you over because they are selfish and had no regard for your needs and no respect for you whatsoever, a person who you will never, ever be able to trust again?

Yes or No.

I think that covers it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

estes said:


> Variables to consider.
> 
> Do you want to remain in a relationship with a person who f*&ed you over because they are selfish and had no regard for your needs and no respect for you whatsoever, a person who you will never, ever be able to trust again?
> 
> ...


Allrightythen. A wee bit bitter are we??

I think one of the most important things to consider is whether you are with them out of CHOICE or out of NEED. And I think the only way to figure this out is distance. I truly believe that if more BS's kicked the cheater out the day they found out, there'd be far more happy BS's in the end.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

estes said:


> Variables to consider.
> 
> Do you want to remain in a relationship with a person who f*&ed you over because they are selfish and had no regard for your needs and no respect for you whatsoever, a person who you will never, ever be able to trust again?
> 
> ...


The list accounts for your belief; (see last item from Divorce section) as I'm sure it may for many.


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I truly believe that if more BS's kicked the cheater out the day they found out, there'd be far more happy BS's in the end.


Aren't you saying the same thing I did?

There's no good use for a cheater.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

estes said:


> Aren't you saying the same thing I did?
> 
> There's no good use for a cheater.


If you knew anything about me you wouldn't even ask that. NO I am most definitely not saying the same thing you did.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

estes said:


> Aren't you saying the same thing I did?
> 
> There's no good use for a cheater.


I, the resident scumbag, disagree. Sometimes.


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> If you knew anything about me you wouldn't even ask that. NO I am most definitely not saying the same thing you did.


You said that most BS would be happier if they kicked out the cheater the day they found out.

Does that not equate to a cheater being considered useless and reconciliation not a wise move?

If not then why kick them out?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

estes said:


> You said that most BS would be happier if they kicked out the cheater the day they found out.
> 
> Does that not equate to a cheater being considered useless and reconciliation not a wise move?
> 
> If not then why kick them out?





Hope1964 said:


> I think one of the most important things to consider is whether you are with them out of CHOICE or out of NEED. *And I think the only way to figure this out is distance. *I truly believe that if more BS's kicked the cheater out the day they found out, there'd be far more happy BS's in the end.


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

I interpret that to mean get as far away from the cheater as fast as possible because the distance will make it easier to heal, and figure out where they're headed next in their lives.

Not "kick them out, have some distance to figure something out and then invite them back to do it all over again".

Not seeing the point.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

estes said:


> You said that most BS would be happier if they kicked out the cheater the day they found out.
> 
> Does that not equate to a cheater being considered useless and reconciliation not a wise move?
> 
> If not then why kick them out?


I "think" Hope1964 was suggesting that one of the consequences for the CS, should be to endure some separation period from the BS, even if not permanent; which I absolutely agree with.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

estes said:


> I interpret that to mean get as far away from the cheater as fast as possible because the distance will make it easier to heal, and figure out where they're headed next in their lives.
> 
> Not "kick them out, have some distance to figure something out and then invite them back to do it all over again".
> 
> Not seeing the point.


Nope, you're not apparently. If I explain it in greater detail are you going to hear me, or is whatever happened to you still too raw for that?

Maybe try reading my story (link's in my sig)


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

estes said:


> I interpret that to mean get as far away from the cheater as fast as possible because the distance will make it easier to heal, and figure out where they're headed next in their lives.
> 
> Not "kick them out, have some distance to figure something out and then invite them back to do it all over again".
> 
> Not seeing the point.


If your position is that reconciliation is always a bad thing, which it seems yours is, then I understand your confusion. 

Otherwise, the distance and separation allows for a clearer head when making decisions about what to do moving forward.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

badmemory said:


> I "think" Hope1964 was suggesting that one of the consequences for the CS, should be to endure some separation period from the BS, even if not permanent; which I absolutely agree with.


Not only that, but the BS needs to do some soul searching and figure out what they need. The cheater needs to be the one kicked out too - none of this 'leaving' stuff


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Nope, you're not apparently. If I explain it in greater detail are you going to hear me, or is whatever happened to you still too raw for that?
> 
> Maybe try reading my story (link's in my sig)


I'll try.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Not only that, but the BS needs to do some soul searching and figure out what they need. The cheater needs to be the one kicked out too - none of this 'leaving' stuff


Yep, it's best for the CS and the BS. 

My mistake, was not taking enough time after kicking my WS out of the house initially - and I told her that. But here we are in R, almost 5 years out.


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

How's it working out for you?

Do you trust that she won't hurt you again?

Do things happen that trigger you and you slip back to an emotionally bad place because all the thoughts and memories of your partner having sex with someone else resurface?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

OK @estes. The BS kicking the cheater out accomplishes several things
- the cheater is given the message that what they did has blown up the marriage and is totally unacceptable
- the BS stands their ground by staying, doesn't take crap from the cheater, does NOT allow cheater to come back
- the BS can clear their head, seek IC, do what they need to to figure things out, start healing
- the cheater is tested - can they stop cheating? hopefully can also take the opportunity to start fixing themselves
- the BS can evaluate the relationship - do they even WANT the cheater back? Are they too NEEDY wrt to the cheater? Are they financially dependent on the cheater? Can they cut all ties with the cheater and be happy? If they decide to give the gift of R, will they be better off than if they stay alone?
- the BS can evaluate the cheater more objectively and independently

The process will take several months or more at least.

I do not see how couples can reset things successfully if they stay in each others faces right afterward. Often the BS just 'forgives', which means rugsweeps, and the cheater just keeps cheating, because it's the easiest thing to do. That's why I always say there's a HUGE difference between 'reconciliation' and 'staying married'


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

I think I'm starting to get it.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

I am pleased to see that that list doesn't apply to me and my husbands situation. 

Reconciliation is supposed to be hard, if it wasn't I'm sure it would class as rug sweeping instead. 

In counselling today we talked about trust a lot, and I realised that the trust wasn't so much the problem anymore, but the question of whether I am willing to live with the pain of being betrayed by the person closest to me. To me the answer is probably going to be yes, there is to many good things in our relationship to say no. But it is something that has to be considered, sometimes trust can be rebuilt, but maybe not the relationship.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

estes said:


> How's it working out for you?
> 
> Do you trust that she won't hurt you again?
> 
> Do things happen that trigger you and you slip back to an emotionally bad place because all the thoughts and memories of your partner having sex with someone else resurface?


I'm probably an unusual case. Sokillme mentioned in an earlier post that a BS can have a different perspective on R if the marriage was dysfunctional before the A. That was us in a nutshell.

Even though my WS had 3 out of the 5 "high risk" circumstances I mentioned on the list, I decided to attempt R (of course I didn't have a clue back then); in large part because my life with her post A, was actually better than the dysfunctional marriage we had - at least a majority of the time. She's been better than the wife I used to know and I made the decision, that if that continued to be the case, I would keep going. It did and I have.

Do I trust her? No, not completely. But now I have a resigned indifference. If she cheats again I know I will likely catch her and that will be it. I don't worry about it any more.

Do I still trigger. Yes, but not near as often. Mostly, I think about doing harm to the OM. Can't help myself in that regard.

So, essentially I went from a dysfunctional marriage to one that is better than I've ever had - even if that comparison is sad. It is what it is.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Emmi said:


> But it is something that has to be considered, sometimes trust can be rebuilt, but maybe not the relationship.


Maybe not, but don't discount the healing power of time. If the trust is continuously earned, the relationship can follow at its own pace.


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

Interesting turn of events for you. 

In short you accept that your marriage will never be what you would want it to be, but you're not in denial about the issues that are still present, and it works for you so for now you'll sort of roll with it until and unless she repeats in which case you're sort of mentally prepared to cut the cord for good. At any rate it's better than it was so you're content with any improvement. 

Do you ever think it could be better if you started from scratch with someone new who you could possibly have that relationship full of trust where you don't have to half expect what might be inevitable and living from day to day with one eye open always looking over your shoulder holding onto so much anger and maybe even hatred towards the guy who screwed your wife?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badmemory said:


> So, essentially I went from a dysfunctional marriage to one that is better than I've ever had - even if that comparison is sad. It is what it is.


That's the bright side of reconciliation that dare not say its name on TAM.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Why is the assumption there was cheating involved? It's not the only reason couples split. The list should focus on more general conditions. The hyperfocus on causes, not solutions, is part of the problem many couples have, IMO.


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

These last few posts show affair tainted marriages in a new light at least for me.

Could it be that those relationships that are destined for infidelity are so screwed up that virtually any improvement post affair is enough to keep the betrayed spouse on board, because in their mind they can't do any better even if they start over with someone else? That points to issues within the betrayed spouse not necessarily the wayward spouse, in other words the betrayed spouse truly believes that a dysfunctional post affair relationship with limited trust is better than anything they can do with someone else.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

estes said:


> These last few posts show affair tainted marriages in a new light at least for me.
> 
> Could it be that those relationships that are destined for infidelity are so screwed up that virtually any improvement post affair is enough to keep the betrayed spouse on board, because in their mind they can't do any better even if they start over with someone else? That points to issues within the betrayed spouse not necessarily the wayward spouse, in other words the betrayed spouse truly believes that a dysfunctional post affair relationship with limited trust is better than anything they can do with someone else.


I'm sure that happens. In my case, I weighed the pros and cons, knowing myself and my husband, and decided my life would be better with him than it would without him in it. I gave him 'one more chance' I guess you could say.

I think of trust as similar to radioactive decay. There's no radiation to begin with (100% trust) then something happens to blow it up (thermonuclear blast/cheating) which totally devastates the landscape. All trust is GONE. Then there's time. Radioactivity has a half life. If the half life is 5 years, then in 5 years half of it's gone. Or, with trust, in 5 years, half of it's back. Then 5 years later, half of the remaining half is back. Then 5 years after THAT, another half. And so on and so on. So in 25 years, you have 50% +25% + 12.5% + 6.25% + 3.125% of it, or 96.875% of it back. It will never reach 100%.

I have trust issues, and tend to start out far closer to 0% trust than 100%. So to meet someone new and start over would be far more tiring for me than staying with the known variable. If I had to get to know someone first, that would be adding years into the equation.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

estes said:


> Could it be that those relationships that are destined for infidelity are so screwed up that virtually any improvement post affair is enough to keep the betrayed spouse on board


This is an ongoing topic of debate. I happen to agree with you. "Hope dies last" is an idiom that describe a lot of zombie marriages.

Regarding R involving infidelity, I think a lot depends on the true remorse of the WS.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

badmemory said:


> I'm probably an unusual case. Sokillme mentioned in an earlier post that a BS can have a different perspective on R if the marriage was dysfunctional before the A. That was us in a nutshell.
> 
> Even though my WS had 3 out of the 4 "high risk" circumstances I mentioned on the list, I decided to attempt R (of course I didn't have a clue back then); in large part because my life with her post A, was actually better than the dysfunctional marriage we had - at least a majority of the time. She's been better than the wife I used to know and I made the decision, that if that continued to be the case, I would keep going. It did and I have.
> 
> ...


Yeah you are exactly the type of person I was talking about. Meanwhile the person who say, "my marriage was perfect I thought we were lucky". I think for that person it is going to be too much of a let down to stay.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

In my case, our marriage was **** before she cheated, it was **** after she cheated, until one day I decided that I had enough with the old way of doing things. 

I decided on R because my wife showed remorse and was willing to accept my terms. But, the only reason we have an amazing marriage today is because of the work that we have put into it. She didn't suddenly wake up one day being fully honest with me. It took time and energy. She didn't wake up one day being willing and wanting to do anything for me to please me. That came after I found a way to get her to become emotionally vulnerable to me, and showed her that it was safe for her to do so.

Honestly, i am a firm believer in the ability to change at a fundamental level, because I have experienced it in myself and my wife. But, I am also a firm believer that 99 people out of a hundred will never change, nor will they allow others to change around them, because they don't believe it is possible. 

My wife changed who she is. She gave up her identity and let it die. As did i. I don't see the need to punish the new person for who the old one was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

So you trust your wife 100% and have no concerns that she'd ever cheat on you again?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

estes said:


> So you trust your wife 100% and have no concerns that she'd ever cheat on you again?


Absolutely. You can call me naive, but she has shown over the years that she has taken on the responsibility to ensure that she does not have another affair.

Like I said, she is a different person today. To the point where she emotionally reacts to everything differently than she did before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

estes said:


> So you trust your wife 100% and have no concerns that she'd ever cheat on you again?


No one should ever trust his spouse 100%, under any circumstances. The statistics just don't bear it out. It's a fool's bet, one that can lull you into a false sense of security and lethargy towards your marriage.

That's not the same as saying you should suspect your spouse of having done anything - only that you should never act as if it couldn't happen to you. Because it can.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

estes said:


> These last few posts show affair tainted marriages in a new light at least for me.
> 
> Could it be that those relationships that are destined for infidelity are so screwed up that virtually any improvement post affair is enough to keep the betrayed spouse on board, because in their mind they can't do any better even if they start over with someone else? That points to issues within the betrayed spouse not necessarily the wayward spouse, in other words the betrayed spouse truly believes that a dysfunctional post affair relationship with limited trust is better than anything they can do with someone else.


I believe this to be the case with many people who R. I think it comes down to fear. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't seems to be some of the thinking. 

Also there can be extraneous circumstances such as money or health. This is an entirely different circumstance and really sad. 

In some cases though it's just easier to stay. Maybe for the BS the marriage is bad enough before this that this is just one more injustice can be added to the list. 

I wish more was said to encourage the scared WS to leave though. It's hard to see them stay in an abusive situation. They remind me of the woman who stay with abusive husbands. At least we provide shelters for them. No such thing for the emotionally abused. 

I also think some people have an unrealistic idea of what R will look like. If you look at the boards most still trigger 10 even 20 years out. The affair doesn't really go away it is just something you learn to live with. 

However there is always the chorus that advocates it on these boards no matter what the situation. It's kind of like magic thinking. They will start with the tough love stuff but never go as far as to advocate for divorce. For instance Chump lady is hated on SI, and by some here. 

I always see post like, "Can this ever be fixed?", "will it get better?". No one ever says, - "nope probably not", "no you will be triggering 20 years later", or at the very least, "This is not the question you should be asking yourself right now, you should be figuring out how best to heal YOU, not the relationship". It's natural to want to try to fix it but if the cost is your soul maybe it is not a good thing. 

Some of the boards will kick you off if you say that though. Because that is a really terrible thing to hear when you have just been destroyed by the person who was supposed to love you the most. In my opinion it is something that every BS should hear though.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

This should illustrate how much my wife has changed: both of her parents have come to me and said that it is like their daughter grew up. She is stable, joyous, and capable of doing things today and handling situations that they were convinced that she would never be able to handle. 

They never took her seriously before. Well, they take her seriously today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Absolutely. You can call me naive


You don't appear to be naive, I think the better word is "in denial" but I can understand why your approach makes things work so much better for you. There's really nothing you can do to change what may happen down the line, you've chosen to stay with her so you might as well go all in.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

estes said:


> These last few posts show affair tainted marriages in a new light at least for me.
> 
> Could it be that those relationships that are destined for infidelity are so screwed up that virtually any improvement post affair is enough to keep the betrayed spouse on board, because in their mind they can't do any better even if they start over with someone else? That points to issues within the betrayed spouse not necessarily the wayward spouse, in other words the betrayed spouse truly believes that a dysfunctional post affair relationship with limited trust is better than anything they can do with someone else.


That might be the case in some marriages, but certainly not all. Our marriage was great before, no dysfunction at all. But I do feel like I can't get anything better with anyone else, not because of problems with myself or anything, but because I'm married to my best friend, I believe we are perfect for each other and that we made the right choice when we decided to get married. I'm not going to throw that away because of one rough patch where he made some really bad choices.


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

Emmi said:


> That might be the case in some marriages, but certainly not all. Our marriage was great before, no dysfunction at all. But I do feel like I can't get anything better with anyone else, not because of problems with myself or anything, but because I'm married to my best friend, I believe we are perfect for each other and that we made the right choice when we decided to get married. I'm not going to throw that away because of one rough patch where he made some really bad choices.


If he cheated when things were great, and he's your best friend, then what security do you have that he won't cheat again?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> This should illustrate how much my wife has changed: both of her parents have come to me and said that it is like their daughter grew up. She is stable, joyous, and capable of doing things today and handling situations that they were convinced that she would never be able to handle.
> 
> They never took her seriously before. Well, they take her seriously today.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And then there are people like you and your wife. You are the very rare but I do believe it is possible. Even some WS on SI also have really changed you can tell from the advice they give. If the BS can live with the pain and want to stay married then I think more power to them.

It's just that your situation is like 1 in 1000.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I believe this to be the case with many people who R. I think it comes down to fear. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't seems to be some of the thinking.
> 
> Also there can be extraneous circumstances such as money or health. This is an entirely different circumstance and really sad.
> 
> ...


To be fair, I believe you are right. I think most people choose to R because of fear. 
I think one of the reasons my wife and I succeeded at R was because I am ok with being afraid, but acting anyway. It always scares me when I have to jump out of a plane, or dive into deep water while laden with 135 pounds of gear, with the knowledge that if I cannot take it all off and get to the surface, I die. But, I do it anyway. 

So, I wasn't afraid to lose my wife. I just knew that there were things I could do in order to influence her. So, I decided to try. Sometimes, I wonder of i was just bored. I can say that I never fell in love with her until we had been married for a few years. the PA happened at the end of year one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

estes said:


> You don't appear to be naive, I think the better word is "in denial" but I can understand why your approach makes things work so much better for you. There's really nothing you can do to change what may happen down the line, you've chosen to stay with her so you might as well go all in.


Eh, denial might be right. And sure, she may one day cheat on me. But, I'm pretty sure that if she did, it wouldnt be for the same reasons she cheated on me the first time. It would probably hurt more now, since we weren't really "in love" when we got married, nor when she cheated. So, less emotional investment back then.

You don't quite feel betrayal so much when you never really opened up with someone to begiN with, ya know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

@As'laDain - congratulations. How long have you been married for now?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> And then there are people like you and your wife. You are the very rare but I do believe it is possible. Even some WS on SI also have really changed you can tell from the advice they give. If the BS can live with the pain and want to stay married then I think more power to them.
> 
> It's just that your situation is like 1 in 1000.


Oh, I am well aware of the fact that my situation is rare. But, so is my approach to R. I can't tell you how many times I have looked at an R thread and saw the impending train wreck, advised on how to avoid it, and was ignored because the BS just can't fathom having to do what they need to do. And then, the train comes off its rails...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sapientia said:


> @As'laDain - congratulations. How long have you been married for now?


8 years now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Oh, I am well aware of the fact that my situation is rare. But, so is my approach to R. I can't tell you how many times I have looked at an R thread and saw the impending train wreck, advised on how to avoid it, and was ignored because the BS just can't fathom having to do what they need to do. And then, the train comes off its rails...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah it's sad.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

sapientia said:


> I think a lot depends on the true remorse of the WS.


I know remorse is a requirement for a reconciliation. My question has to do with the time frame. How soon should the cheating spouse be expected to start showing remorse?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

@estes if you look at my post history I was making your same argument about a month ago. I am starting to see things differently though. I believe for some people infidelity just isn't as big a deal as it would be to me or maybe you. Also I think that if your marriage is already crap maybe it is worth trying to fix everything. I know I couldn't do it but I guess it's OK if others don't think like me. 

Mostly now it just bothers me when the truth of R. is not presented. As long as the BS acknowledges that it is a suckers bet then who am I to fight them on it. It's the ones who just jump to R. and think they will one day get their original marriage back that really make me sad.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> I know remorse is a requirement for a reconciliation. My question has to do with the time frame. How soon should the cheating spouse be expected to start showing remorse?


I don't know. Emotionally, I would expect immediately, but intellectually, I expect true remorse won't come until they fully appreciate what has been risked. Risk assumes value. A WS who truly doesn't value the relationship will never feel remorse. That requires an epiphany. Others will have to explain based on their own experience.

My H never showed remorse for the things he did, which is part of the reason I left. I knew I deserved better. He actually did have an epiphany, I know this from a mutual friend, but it took losing me to bring him to it. Sometimes, it requires something that extreme, which is why I believe that leaving someone can be the greatest thing you do for them--and yourself, of course. Voting with ones feet IS an answer to an unacceptable situation.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

VladDracul said:


> I know remorse is a requirement for a reconciliation. My question has to do with the time frame. How soon should the cheating spouse be expected to start showing remorse?


I think that is an individual thing. The way I see it, if your spouse is not showing remorse, and you need remorse in order to reconcile, then you should start divorce proceedings immediately. You don't have to follow through, and you can drag them on as long as you want, but as the BS, it's your responsibility to decide how long you are willing to wait. For me, I would have given my wife about 6 months. Not six months of me doing nothibg, it would have been six months of me trying to make her REALLY understand how much she hurt me. And anything that I had to do in order to get her to really get it would be game so long as I would not hate myself for it later. 

For me, that meant I was willing to do pretty much anything short of a revenge affair. I had no problem doing something that would make her cry out of shame. Fortunately for both of us, I didn't have to do much. She already hated herself the morning after it went PA. She really was remorseful. 


On a slightly related note, I accepted the fact that anything I would have to do in order to cause her to regret her decisions was just part of the way things were. So, because I saw it as a part of something I had to do because of the reality I lived it, I bore no resentment for her for "making" me do it. I saw it as me just doing what I need to do in order to get the outcome I am looking for. 

Does that make sense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sapientia said:


> I don't know. Emotionally, I would expect immediately, but intellectually, I expect true remorse won't come until they fully appreciate what has been risked. That requires an epiphany. Others will have to explain based on their own experience.
> 
> My H never showed remorse for the things he did, which is part of the reason I left. I knew I deserved better. He actually did have an epiphany, I know this from a mutual friend, but it took losing me to bring him to it. Sometimes, it requires something that extreme, which is why I believe that leaving someone can be the greatest thing you do for them--and yourself, of course. Voting with ones feet IS an answer to an unacceptable situation.


I gotta say, I agree. Your last statement shows a lot of awareness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Sapientia, I think you're absolutely correct saying that true remorse won't come until they fully appreciate what has been risked; and could have lost. I'll further submit that those expecting the cheater to show remorse immediately are fooling themselves. Common sense dictates that if the cheater was not remorseful five minutes before getting caught its unlikely they are genuinely remorseful five minutes after getting caught. (unless we want to consider regretting they got caught with remorse)


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> I gotta say, I agree. Your last statement shows a lot of awareness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks. I spent a long time unwinding my psych tangles on this topic. As I said, cheating is just one of many forms of betrayal in a marriage.

I'm in a really great place now, so in hindsight the experience was well worth it.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

estes said:


> If he cheated when things were great, and he's your best friend, then what security do you have that he won't cheat again?


Our relationship was great, circumstances were not, he went through a really bad time with bad health, loss of career, unresolved childhood trauma... And it just got a bit to much for him, antidepressants were a huge part in how he lost his emotions and became indifferent to everything. 

Since then he has stopped his antidepressants and changed to a therapist who is actually helping him in stead of just medicating him, he is communicating better and has realised that he was building resentment towards me because of his own health problems and all that came with them. 

For security that he won't do it again: 

He has shown that he has learned from his actions, it has made him more alert and perceptive. He now knows where boundaries should go. 

He is working on the issues that allowed him to make those mistakes.

His midlife crisis has ended, and he feels confident that he won't go through an other one, and that should things get so bad again he has the tools to spot it earlier and the ability to communicate as opposed to trying to wait it out like he did last time.

There is probably more, but this is what I can think of. He is working hard to make this up to me, but the most important part is that he is working on himself and on fixing the parts that allowed him to cheat in the first place. 

I can see that he has learned from this experience, which in my opinion makes him less likely to cheat than someone new. I also believe it is easier for me to heal with him than without. I am very proactive so I would rather suffer through the pain now, than enter in to something new and carry this hurt and trust issues with me. Also he is the one I want, so it feels ridiculous to me to even mention "someone new".

I still trust him more than anyone else, because of his openness and how close knit we are.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

VladDracul said:


> Sapientia, I think you're absolutely correct saying that true remorse won't come until they fully appreciate what has been risked; and could have lost. I'll further submit that those expecting the cheater to show remorse immediately are fooling themselves. Common sense dictates that if the cheater was not remorseful five minutes before getting caught its unlikely they are genuinely remorseful five minutes after getting caught. (unless we want to consider regretting they got caught with remorse)


Yep. This is one of the reasons that I believe it was easier for me to forgive my wife than most others. My wife told me a out it the very next morning. Of course, her neck was covered in hickies, so it would have hard for her to hide it. Regardless, she never once blamed me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> @estes if you look at my post history I was making your same argument about a month ago. I am starting to see things differently though. I believe for some people infidelity just isn't as big a deal as it would be to me or maybe you. Also I think that if your marriage is already crap maybe it is worth trying to fix everything. I know I couldn't do it but I guess it's OK if others don't think like me.
> 
> Mostly now it just bothers me when the truth of R. is not presented. As long as the BS acknowledges that it is a suckers bet then who am I to fight them on it. It's the ones who just jump to R. and think they will one day get their original marriage back that really make me sad.


That last sentence... it's honestly painful to see it happening on these forums. And to me, it doesn't make sense. Obviously the way things were going didnt work. So why on earth would they want things to go back to the way that didn't work?

I chalk it up to fear of change. We are always changing... but for some reason, we are afraid to direct our own selves to change in the way we want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Yep. This is one of the reasons that I believe it was easier for me to forgive my wife than most others. My wife told me a out it the very next morning. Of course, her neck was covered in hickies, so it would have hard for her to hide it. Regardless, she never once blamed me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What the heck was the guy thinking?

It seems like he wanted you to know, either he was doing you a favor or he was the height of arrogance.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

estes said:


> What the heck was the guy thinking?
> 
> It seems like he wanted you to know, either he was doing you a favor or he was the height of arrogance.


It wasn't a guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

For me remorse wouldn't matter in a sense of wanting to stay married. I just would rather move on. I value the emotional safety of my spouse as one of the primary reasons for my marriage. I didn't grow up with a lot of emotional safety in my home, I could never go back to that. I am also one of these people that tend to idealize love and relationships so losing that would be very hard. I think I would much rather go find that with someone else at that point.


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> It wasn't a guy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the visual.

:smile2:


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> That last sentence... it's honestly painful to see it happening on these forums. And to me, it doesn't make sense. Obviously the way things were going didnt work. So why on earth would they want things to go back to the way that didn't work?
> 
> I chalk it up to fear of change. We are always changing... but for some reason, we are afraid to direct our own selves to change in the way we want.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do think for some though it really is a shock. Things really were good and the cheater just felt entitled to more. Or was swept up in the excitement. Those are the ones that I think are the hardest to come back from, because how can you stay with someone who could be so selfish.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> For me remorse wouldn't matter in a sense of wanting to stay married. I just would rather move on. I value the emotional safety of my spouse as one of the primary reasons for my marriage. I didn't grow up with a lot of emotional safety in my home, I could never go back to that. I am also one of these people that tend to idealize love and relationships so losing that would be very hard. I think I would much rather go find that with someone else at that point.


My situation is slightly similar, but different. I grew up in a house where my mother criticized everything I did and regularly worked herself I to rages, during which she sometimes tried to stab me, or bludgeon me with a cast iron skillet, throw knives at me, or just throw random objects at me. She once broke a wooden chair on my back. Unfortunately, I never told my father about all that until it had gone on so long that it was hard for him to believe me. When I was three and a half, my father came home from deployment and made fun of me for peeing myself. He thought had just not yet learned to use the potty. The truth was, I was suffering a childhood epilepsy and couldn't help it. He didn't know that at the time. Regardless, it shaped my relationship with him. All I wanted at the time was to have a dad that was proud of me. And what I got was a dad that was ashamed of me. At least, that's how I felt. So by the time I was willing to speak up to my father about my mothers abuse, I didn't really trust either one of them. I'm pretty sure that back then I would easily fall into the category of "sociopath". I honestly didn't think that real emotional bonds were a real thing. I honestly thought that it was all just a front that people put up. I thought everyone was just acting in order to get something they want. When my wife cheated on me, I didn't hate her for it because I was never vulnerable to her to begin with. It wasn't until I heard my own time of death being announced that I realized that I can really love someone, out of choice. I realized that if I can love myself, then I can love them. And if I can love them, then they really CAN love me. 

At that point, I wanted akinaura (my wife) to love herself. Because, as I saw it at the time, amd as I still see it today, the only way she can love me is if she loves herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> My situation is slightly similar, but different. I grew up in a house where my mother criticized everything I did and regularly worked herself I to rages, during which she sometimes tried to stab me, or bludgeon me with a cast iron skillet, throw knives at me, or just throw random objects at me. She once broke a wooden chair on my back. Unfortunately, I never told my father about all that until it had gone on so long that it was hard for him to believe me. When I was three and a half, my father came home from deployment and made fun of me for peeing myself. He thought had just not yet learned to use the potty. The truth was, I was suffering a childhood epilepsy and couldn't help it. He didn't know that at the time. Regardless, it shaped my relationship with him. All I wanted at the time was to have a dad that was proud of me. And what I got was a dad that was ashamed of me. At least, that's how I felt. So by the time I was willing to speak up to my father about my mothers abuse, I didn't really trust either one of them. I'm pretty sure that back then I would easily fall into the category of "sociopath". I honestly didn't think that real emotional bonds were a real thing. I honestly thought that it was all just a front that people put up. I thought everyone was just acting in order to get something they want. When my wife cheated on me, I didn't hate her for it because I was never vulnerable to her to begin with. It wasn't until I heard my own time of death being announced that I realized that I can really love someone, out of choice. I realized that if I can love myself, then I can love them. And if I can love them, then they really CAN love me.
> 
> At that point, I wanted akinaura (my wife) to love herself. Because, as I saw it at the time, amd as I still see it today, the only way she can love me is if she loves herself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know some might take from your story that it takes a near death or actual death experience to recover from infidelity. >


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> You know some might take from your story that it takes a near death or actual death experience to recover from infidelity. >


In all seriousness, I do believe it takes a death to self. But, I die daily. I am not afraid of who I will become tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

estes said:


> Interesting turn of events for you.
> 
> In short you accept that your marriage will never be what you would want it to be, but you're not in denial about the issues that are still present, and it works for you so for now you'll sort of roll with it until and unless she repeats in which case you're sort of mentally prepared to cut the cord for good. At any rate it's better than it was so you're content with any improvement.
> 
> Do you ever think it could be better if you started from scratch with someone new who you could possibly have that relationship full of trust where you don't have to half expect what might be inevitable and living from day to day with one eye open always looking over your shoulder holding onto so much anger and maybe even hatred towards the guy who screwed your wife?


I didn't say that my marriage will never be what I want it to be. But at this point in my life, I don't believe in rainbows and unicorns. I believe in practicality. 

My marriage is better than it was before. My wife has been a remorseful, loving wife for 5 years. Period. For those BS's that aspire for more, certainly they should follow their conscience.

No, I don't think it would be better if I started from scratch. That's why I made the decision I made. I'd like to think I know myself well enough to antcipate what my future would hold should I divorce and what would make me the happiest.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> For me remorse wouldn't matter in a sense of wanting to stay married. I just would rather move on. I value the emotional safety of my spouse as one of the primary reasons for my marriage. I didn't grow up with a lot of emotional safety in my home, I could never go back to that. I am also one of these people that tend to idealize love and relationships so losing that would be very hard. I think I would much rather go find that with someone else at that point.


This was an eye opener for me. I never thought about it in those terms before, because for ME, I am my own emotional safety and I do not tend to idealize love and relationships.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> This was an eye opener for me. I never thought about it in those terms before, because for ME, I am my own emotional safety and I do not tend to idealize love and relationships.


Safety may not be the right word, stability is more accurate. 

As a child of divorce and one who eventually had a step-father who yelled and screamed all the time I never really felt comfortable in my own home from about the age of 7 onward. There was never any peace. I never had any peace until I moved out at 18. 

I never had that stable feeling (with someone else) again until I bought my house and moved in with my wife. I will not and can not go back to feeling like I did all those years. An affair would do that. I would rather be alone. I lived alone quite happily before I met her. 

I could live with lots of other things but not cheating. You see from my post what I think of cheaters for the most part, how could I be married to one and be happy when I think that way. 

Finally I have seen my 60 year old mother (at the time) divorce my step-father and her life has improved spectacularly. It's better then it has ever been. She will tell you this is the happiest time in her life. She didn't even have a full time career at the time (she did have a teaching degree but had to take the certs again), and now she makes really good money and is beloved (she is a reading specialist). 

This has given me a great example at how removing yourself from a bad situation is the best route. I actually convinced her to do it. She was terrified, but she was no longer financially safe with him. And this is why she was staying. Where would she be if she stayed. Stuck in a verbally abusive marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> In all seriousness, I do believe it takes a death to self. But, I die daily. I am not afraid of who I will become tomorrow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I find most really good things in your life do at least a little bit.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

badmemory said:


> *High Risk to Reconcile
> 
> -	The CS was in a long term affair
> -	The CS was discovered to be involved in multiple affairs (serial cheater)
> ...


You think its worth giving a 2nd chance to long term cheats, serial cheats and honeymoon cheats?!?

WTF? These should all be NO BRAINER divorceable offenses.....

The only "plausible" scenarios for VERY High Risk to Reconcile are:

1) EA cheats less than 6 months (verifiable zero physical contact) and WS confesses without investigation or trickle truth and demonstrates true remorse.

2) Drunken ONS (verifiable zero prior contact) no emotional attachment, WS confesses without investigation or trickle truth and demonstrates true remorse.

Other then that, dump them immediately, run and never look back. Even those two I'd hardly fault the person for divorcing anyway.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

sokillme said:


> For me remorse wouldn't matter in a sense of wanting to stay married. I just would rather move on. I value the emotional safety of my spouse as one of the primary reasons for my marriage. I didn't grow up with a lot of emotional safety in my home, I could never go back to that. I am also one of these people that tend to idealize love and relationships so losing that would be very hard. I think I would much rather go find that with someone else at that point.


I heard this analogy regarding why reconciliation after a PA is difficult.

You inherited your mother's dinnerware set. Somebody carelessly left one of the plate on the floor and the dog pooped on it. The person who left the plate out didn't mean any harm and apologized. After hosing it off and several cycle through the dishwasher the plate is completely clean. But can you bring yourself to eat off that plate?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

KillerClown said:


> I heard this analogy regarding why reconciliation after a PA is difficult.
> 
> You inherited your mother's dinnerware set. Somebody carelessly left one of the plate on the floor and the dog pooped on it. The person who left the plate out didn't mean any harm and apologized. After hosing it off and several cycle through the dishwasher the plate is completely clean. But can you bring yourself to eat off that plate?


Yes. Why can't you? The plate is undeniably no longer dirty. Of course, the WS might not be quite so clean.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

klondike said:


> Throwing a cheater through the rinse cycle doesn't change who they are on the inside.


Nope. Nothing can force them to change. All you can do is change and give them the opportunity to either change or stay the same. 

But if you change, and they change, and both of you end up looking like different people, then the whole relationship has changed. 

If you want a reformed spouse, and your spouse is trying to reform, then let them reform. There is no shame in leaving them for crossing a boundary. But, if you are going to try and stay with them, it is stupid to treat them like their old self if they have changed who they are. 

Anyway, it's time for me to go have some awesome and freaky sex with my wife tonight. Again. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stillthinking (Jun 1, 2016)

Its an interesting list. I wonder:

If every PA resulted in immediate divorce. NO exceptions. Does not matter if it was a long term affiar or a ONS. Just divorce, quick and certain.

Would there be less PA's?

Or just more divorces?


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

stillthinking said:


> Its an interesting list. I wonder:
> 
> If every PA resulted in immediate divorce. NO exceptions. Does not matter if it was a long term affiar or a ONS. Just divorce, quick and certain.
> 
> ...


More divorces IMHO, you can't always control the biological drive and urge to procreate, regardless of its morality, we have a very well developed inner drive to have sex and spread our genes, which gives us genetic diversification to fend off viruses and disease, is it that simple, and it has evolved to a finely tune machine over thousands of years, like it or not.....hence my belief there would be more divorces 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

The points you enumerated in your OP are certainly a list of horrible circumstances that make reconciliation impossible or nearly impossible. I would add that in my experience it makes a great deal of difference whether the BS is a man or a woman. Men and women don't think the same & often react to infidelity quite differently. In general, the sex is much more devastating to a BH than a BW and that fact can mean that many BH's shouldn't waste a moment trying to reconcile. Those BH's that are devastated by the sexual component of WW's cheating will never find true peace if they stay with the her. He will never forget, the mind-movies will never go away and his anger toward her will turn to contempt and hatred. Divorce is a much better remedy for both of them.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

drifter777 said:


> The points you enumerated in your OP are certainly a list of horrible circumstances that make reconciliation impossible or nearly impossible. I would add that in my experience it makes a great deal of difference whether the BS is a man or a woman. Men and women don't think the same & often react to infidelity quite differently. In general, the sex is much more devastating to a BH than a BW and that fact can mean that many BH's shouldn't waste a moment trying to reconcile. Those BH's that are devastated by the sexual component of WW's cheating will never find true peace if they stay with the her. He will never forget, the mind-movies will never go away and his anger toward her will turn to contempt and hatred. Divorce is a much better remedy for both of them.


I'm not sure i believe this to be true, sounds like sexist prejudice to me. Maybe the more accurate would be to say people who's love language is physical touch would struggle more with the physical aspect of cheating.

I think it's very unhealthy to suppress men's emotional side, and I believe men to be just as capable of forgiveness as women. The individual differences can't be tied back to gender.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

Emmi said:


> I'm not sure i believe this to be true, sounds like sexist prejudice to me. Maybe the more accurate would be to say people who's love language is physical touch would struggle more with the physical aspect of cheating.
> 
> I think it's very unhealthy to suppress men's emotional side, and I believe men to be just as capable of forgiveness as women. The individual differences can't be tied back to gender.


Well, people who don't acknowledge that men and women are different physically and emotionally make me nervous.

Unhealthy for men to suppress their emotional side? Are you kidding me? All men suppress their emotional side to one degree or another when compared to women. And yes, the individual differences are directly related to gender. Within the gender there are clearly differences in that some men overlook the sexual component, some are not destroyed by it, and others are emotionally devastated by it.


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