# Playing Hard to Get?



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

A dynamic that I notice in all the HD/LD relationships is that the HD is always chasing and pursuing the LD. What if there was a way to reverse that dynamic by the HD playing hard to get? Then the LD would have to be the one to start chasing the HD and putting forth some effort. 

At this point everyone is likely thinking that if they play hard to get then that would not change anything except to further diminish the chances of intimacy because no one is chasing anyone. But to that I would argue that us HDs are just horrible at playing the game of hard to get. 

I once was joking around and told my wife that there was nothing she could do to get me aroused. I tried to do this as convincingly as possible. She knew that I was wrong and insisted on proving me wrong so not only did she get me aroused but she went about doing so rather aggressively. She proved that she could get me very aroused! Little did she know that was exactly what I wanted. 

While that seems like a manipulation, I don't think so. I see it as just being playful and setting up a fun challenge in which one person will have fun proving they can more than overcome it. 

So in the scheme of things for those that are HD, how good are you at playing the game of hard to get? For those that have developed some skill at it, does it prove helpful? For me, I admit that I am horrible at this game and generally I am way too easy whenever my wife wants to get my attention.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Girlonfire (Apr 7, 2021)

HD woman here. I voted “not good at all” because I agree with your statement that, HD people just can’t help themselves. If my husband gives me attention, I take it. No questions. But I guess it’s more about the situation presenting itself in a way that feels like you’re playing the game. 

For example, when he returns home from a business trip and he is totally in the mood, it’s hard to say if I’m playing hard to get or if he’s really just so horny that he will seduce and play along hard till it’s bed time. 

Also, we have ups and downs. I think I’ve experienced sexuality as a spectrum. We have both gone through phases of being LD and HD at various times in our life. He was very HD and I was HD but less than him, when we got married. After kids, we both became LD for a while. And now I’m HD and he’s a little less HD than me. I feel like through a long partnership, it can ebb and flow and change and come back. Feels more dynamic than fixed.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I vote no. It just gives them an out. 

I reached a point with XH where I was frustrated with having to initiate all of the time so I told myself that I wouldn’t initiate at all and left it up to him. So the sex completely stopped. No effort from him whatsoever. 


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

It's only been 15 months, so still in honeymoon phase. Even so, I am clearly the HD one, though my bf is not LD. Like Girlonfire, I don't play hard to get, and will go with it, no questions. 

He survived being nearly eaten alive and was a good sport for the first year, but I noticed he was feeling pressured and dialed back my attention. Although, I voted "Not good at all playing hard to get", it doesn't mean I don't initiate, I just do it a bit more sneakily  , kinda like hown you egg your wife on. I know it's on when he touches me a particular way, so the trick is to get him to that point without being the aggressor or infringing on his masculinity.

The bar was set very low for me in my previous marriage (frequency and quality), so I don't feel deprived. We're both touchy feely people, so maybe that's why it doesn't feel so strained. Like Girlonfire mentioned, I expect things to ebb and flow over time. Honestly, I would prefer to be less HD, it's torture sometimes. 

It would be interesting to see the similarities and differences between the sexes with respect to HD/LD dynamics.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I reached a point with XH where I was frustrated with having to initiate all of the time so I told myself that I wouldn’t initiate at all and left it up to him. So the sex completely stopped. No effort from him whatsoever.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see this pattern as well where many HDs get frustrated and stop initiating with the hopes that the LD will have to start making an effort. However in my opinion withholding one's efforts of initiation is more often than not done as passive aggressive behavior in that it is intended more as a punishment toward the relationship and not as a rewarding behavior. 

Playing hard to get in my opinion still involves initiation, but it is done so in a rather covert and counterintuitive manner. An example might include dressing up and being playful during a time when intimacy is impossible (like just before leaving for an important appointment). Your partner will be confused by your advances because it is not possible to follow through. Like saying, "hey you can't have this!" The LD may want to initially laugh because he/she is not in the mood, but at some point he/she realizes that nothing can happen which disrupts the normal LD thought process of avoidance. At that point the LD very well will try and turn the tables to let the HD know what he/she can't have. 

My point being is that playing hard to get involves game and strategy. You can't just stop initiating. 

Badsanta


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Don’t stop initiating with a LD partner and wait on them to initiate because the odds are great that they’ll be fine with that for days or weeks or months or years. Not a good idea.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

This is kinda weird on us but your OP was fun.

I'm a hyperdrive HD and Mrs. Conan is only LD in comparison because she can still go several times a week or even daily if health permits.

I can still go 3-5 times a day, every day, so I'm a little weird.

I'm actually far better at playing hard to get than Mrs C.

She will have sex at the drop of a hat.

I can heat her up with a look and get her toes curling with barely a touch.

She literally never turns me down though I initiate more.

She has initiated a lot in the last several years due to relationship trouble and I have turned her down many times. She has been a champ though and still is ready to drop those panties at the hint I want some.

I like your gamesmanship @badsanta !😁


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I see this pattern as well where many HDs get frustrated and stop initiating with the hopes that the LD will have to start making an effort. However in my opinion withholding one's efforts of initiation is more often than not done as passive aggressive behavior in that it is intended more as a punishment toward the relationship and not as a rewarding behavior.
> 
> Playing hard to get in my opinion still involves initiation, but it is done so in a rather covert and counterintuitive manner. An example might include dressing up and being playful during a time when intimacy is impossible (like just before leaving for an important appointment). Your partner will be confused by your advances because it is not possible to follow through. Like saying, "hey you can't have this!" The LD may want to initially laugh because he/she is not in the mood, but at some point he/she realizes that nothing can happen which disrupts the normal LD thought process of avoidance. At that point the LD very well will try and turn the tables to let the HD know what he/she can't have.
> 
> ...


Well my XH WOULD flirt and play sexually with me all the time when he knew we didn’t have time to follow through earlier in the relationship I used to play right back thinking I was going to get me some later. Later never came. Then I stopped playing back and he knew I saw through the game. 

I’m just saying that with a true LD or AS, playing hard to get is just going to buy them time.


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## FlaviusMaximus (Jan 10, 2012)

If I ever played hard to get, my wife would call our doctor.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

FlaviusMaximus said:


> If I ever played hard to get, my wife would call our doctor.


😆


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## Horny guy (Apr 14, 2021)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I vote no. It just gives them an out.
> 
> I reached a point with XH where I was frustrated with having to initiate all of the time so I told myself that I wouldn’t initiate at all and left it up to him. So the sex completely stopped. No effort from him whatsoever.
> 
> ...


sorry to hear that Elizabeth, ,you deserve better


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

When I was chased, in my early relationships before my wife, I would never play hard to get. I just gave in. It was easier and always ended well...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I didn't vote in the poll as I don't think I play hard to get, and also not feeling aligned with the sentiment and labels offered.

However... despite this @badsanta, your thread did get me thinking (uh oh!).

When feeling inspired, I enjoy being particularly playful. With those ideas and moments (whether related to sex or other aspects of life) I like to give playful and leading cues. This is something I enjoy as an expression of my personality, with a snippet of creative thought and fun involved, and I know that my husband likes the mental intrigue and build-up. For example, if I were to line up a certain costume to wear (ahem) as a bit of fun, there will be playful cues for him a couple days before. Mreow. Unrelated to sex, I have shared before about a surprise water balloon fight I set up for us. Beforehand there was a small 'treasure hunt' that had him winding around our home until he reached his bucket of water balloons at the ready (and while I was hiding with my own water balloons). Basically, I enjoy formulating the small extra 'touches' as part of the fun. And thankfully, he's receptive and digs that side of me too. Applying to our sex life, the more 'out of the ordinary moments' builds a playful kind of intrigue or mental stimulation. I could wickedly cackle about the fun of keeping him on his toes, although given he's like catnip to me, maybe he knows how to keep me on mine! Here's to playfulness ...for fun, connection, intimacy, and sexy sex haha.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Yeah, if I ever played hard to get DW would call the dr. Best answer.

When single a hundred years ago, I was picky, but also what you'd call easy when hit on by the right woman.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Well my XH WOULD flirt and play sexually with me all the time when he knew we didn’t have time to follow through earlier in the relationship I used to play right back thinking I was going to get me some later. Later never came. Then I stopped playing back and he knew I saw through the game.
> 
> I’m just saying that with a true LD or AS, playing hard to get is just going to buy them time.
> 
> ...


I completely agree and have found myself in this situation, but make a note that this was initiated by the other person and not you. If you are the person to initiate this behavior it can be done with the "illusion" that there is not time to follow through when in reality you can if you push hard enough. 

This changes the game because if the LD is generally avoidant but plays along, they will enjoy pushing this to test the breaking point. The reality is they may energetically push it all the way! 

It is an extremely ironic dynamic that when sex seems like it can't happen, that it can actually be more likely to happen. Therapist use this dynamic as well for couples that have trouble with intimacy. One of the first rules that a therapist will set is for no sex to occur and assign an exercise that is based on nonsexual touching. Then surprise at the next session the couple failed the assignment and ended up having sex. The therapist is however unlikely to be surprised at this result but will investigate to see who was it that broke the rule and why to reveal if that person is dealing with some form of anxiety (perhaps needing to feel in control).

It is interesting to think about these dynamics and what is revealed. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> However... despite this @badsanta, your thread did get me thinking (uh oh!).


Loved your post! But for those in an HD/LD scenario where rejection is the norm... when the HD tries to be playful things more than often fail and end in frustration. 

For me I can buy my wife flowers, take her out on a wonderful date and be playful. Then come time when we have a moment alone she will roll her eyes and insist she has too many things to do and that it is not a good time. Then I observe her spend her time doing things that are not anywhere near important like sitting outside and talking to a random friend she hasn't spoken to in years (perhaps she was needing personal space). 

It is interesting that each time that intimacy is impossible, it is like a light switch flips and my wife playfully teases the crap out of me. There is a dynamic that when I do notice some time coming up where we can be intimate that I have a tendency to try and discuss it with her to try and plan it, which to her seems to ruin the moment and set expectations that sex has to be a sure thing (and she will try to decline).

So I am learning that I have to be more playful, but the nature of my playfulness has to somehow include the dynamic/illusion that nothing can happen. It is almost as if I have to pretend to be avoidant but playfully so. It is awkward for me to do this. It almost feels like a form of tough love with a fine line between being playful or being rude. 

Anyway, I am trying to up my game! It is reasonable to expect some failures as I struggle to learn along the way. 

Badsanta


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> A dynamic that I notice in all the HD/LD relationships is that the HD is always chasing and pursuing the LD. What if there was a way to reverse that dynamic by the HD playing hard to get? Then the LD would have to be the one to start chasing the HD and putting forth some effort.
> 
> At this point everyone is likely thinking that if they play hard to get then that would not change anything except to further diminish the chances of intimacy because no one is chasing anyone. But to that I would argue that us HDs are just horrible at playing the game of hard to get.
> 
> ...


I've been out of town and just starting to get caught up so I'm a little late to the party. 

I haven't read any of the other posts yet, but your scenario here is likely taking the assumption that the relationship is fundamentally sound and that the parties involved do have a baseline of libido and some honest attraction and desire for each other. 

A lot of the situations here are not healthy, happy couples that have sound relationships and genuine attraction and desire for each other that just need a little sexy diversion from the daily grind. A lot of the people here have actual break downs in the relationship and actual real world problems with the connection and attraction with their spouse and even actual physiological and medical issues such menopause, depression, hormonal imbalance, libido inhibiting medications etc. 

For a good number of the people that come here, if they were to completely back off and not initiate or make attempts at all, it would simply spell the end of their sex life altogether ......... and the LD partner would be perfectly ok with that. 

Take away any of those elements and your theory falls apart and game playing and trying to reverse roles the pursuer and the pursuee won't result in any wild monkey sex. It will likely result in someone coming on here saying they haven't had sex in two years.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

....and I'll also add that for me personally, I would not play hard to get or put off sex anyway because I do not believe in rejecting or denying the person I am involved with philosophically. 

It's fine to flirt and banter when you both want it and KNOW that it is going to happen (which I think is what you are getting at) But if the person I am with is wanting love and affection, I will freely give it without stipulation or conditions. 

Otherwise I wouldn't be with them in the first place.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> For a good number of the people that come here, if they were to completely back off and not initiate or make attempts at all, it would simply spell the end of their sex life altogether ......... and the LD partner would be perfectly ok with that.


From my perspective, playing hard to get involves making an effort. Possibly more effort. 

Use selling real estate as an example. You have only one offer, but you want that one offer to be more competitive. Sure the buyer might just walk away when you don't except, but if the seller has enough game they can get the buyer into a frenzy. An example might include announcing that the property will be taken off the market and no offers will be accepted as the original owner just discovered something incredibly valuable and desirable about it. Now you can't fake that, it will have to be something legitimate. As in value you just went out and created for yourself. Then refuse the offer. Game on! Effort required!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Who voted "World Champion" ?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> When single a hundred years ago, I was picky, but also what you'd call easy when hit on by the right woman.


I don't think playing hard to get is really in the male nomenclature because we all know men are easy to get if they want to be with someone. 

Men are simple and straight forward - if they do not respond to you, it's because they don't want to. 

Now if a man is interested, he may incorporate a little teasing and banter into the mix which can soak a woman's panties if done correctly - but even then, it is often known by both that it is going to happen it's just a matter of when they will each wave the green flag. 

Playing hard to get is typically a female sport in an effort to test a man's fitness and investment and also a way to turn up the volume and bump up the intensity if she interested on a basic level.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> From my perspective, playing hard to get involves making an effort. Possibly more effort.
> 
> Use selling real estate as an example. You have only one offer, but you want that one offer to be more competitive. Sure the buyer might just walk away when you don't except, but if the seller has enough game they can get the buyer into a frenzy. An example might include announcing that the property will be taken off the market and no offers will be accepted as the original owner just discovered something incredibly valuable and desirable about it. Now you can't fake that, it will have to be something legitimate. As in value you just went out and created for yourself. Then refuse the offer. Game on! Effort required!


again, you are assuming a potential buyer has a sincere interest in the property to begin with. 

A lot of the situations here, there is no potential buyer sniffing around to game in the first place. 

I get your point and as I said above, in a healthy relationship with a good level of mutual attraction and desire between two people with intact sex drives, that will work. 

But there is a difference between that and an actual dead bedroom or zombie bedroom where the dynamic is dysfunctional. 
Yes, if someone with a HD level of 9/10 were to game and play a little hard to get with with their lowER D partner who's libido is 8/10, then yeah, it's reasonable that they may have some extra fun times. 

But there is a big difference between someone who is lower D than their partner but still an intact libido and attraction vs someone who is very low D or no D and does not have a baseline level of attraction and desire for their partner. 

Games and cute activities and even date nights and dress up etc that people often recommend are fine for people that have an intact sex drive and sincere attraction and desire for their spouse but just have differing levels of innate desire. 

But when someone loses their desire for partner or lose their physiological sex drive altogether - games and gimmicks etc often cause more problems and issues than they help.


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## Girlonfire (Apr 7, 2021)

badsanta said:


> Who voted "World Champion" ?


 🤣


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## Girlonfire (Apr 7, 2021)

I agree with Oldshirt on the points made. It’s the same thing that I said about sexuality experienced as a spectrum.

If both are on the higher side or lower side together, everything works. As long as, their drives match each other’s to some extent. Even if they are higher or lower than each other, but they fall on the same end of the spectrum.

If one is very high and the other very low, I’m afraid, nothing will work there because they are on different ends of the spectrum.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Girlonfire said:


> I agree with Oldshirt on the points made. It’s the same thing that I said about sexuality experienced as a spectrum.
> 
> If both are on the higher side or lower side together, everything works. As long as, their drives match each other’s to some extent. Even if they are higher or lower than each other, but they fall on the same end of the spectrum.
> 
> If one is very high and the other very low, I’m afraid, nothing will work there because they are on different ends of the spectrum.


Yes. And there is also a difference between a mismatch of desire and NO desire for whatever reason. 

When you have these people come on here where one has been rejecting the other and they haven't had sex for a year or more, That is a basic attraction and relationship issue that no amount of game playing, flirtation/banter or any other gimmick will address.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I just want to thank @oldshirt for using many more words than me to try to explain what I meant 


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I feel a bit weird about the post I shared @badsanta. The reason being, I was not applying the same lens as the premise to your thread as I don't agree with the initial sentiment or necessarily the labels used. I cottoned on to the notion of creating potential build-up and playfulness, yet I didn't explain why I was not relating this fully to what you present - and of which @oldshirt has done so more than I could offer. So now I feel funky about my post haha. While there can be differing sex drives, I also think it can be convenient to describe HD/LD to describe a dynamic; yet I question if that is consistently accurate for some.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

badsanta said:


> From my perspective, playing hard to get involves making an effort. Possibly more effort.
> 
> Use selling real estate as an example. You have only one offer, but you want that one offer to be more competitive. Sure the buyer might just walk away when you don't except, but if the seller has enough game they can get the buyer into a frenzy. An example might include announcing that the property will be taken off the market and no offers will be accepted as the original owner just discovered something incredibly valuable and desirable about it. Now you can't fake that, it will have to be something legitimate. As in value you just went out and created for yourself. Then refuse the offer. Game on! Effort required!


With this analogy, I can't help but think there's a lack of acknowledgement or perhaps savvy for who the buyer is. When we have considered/bought a house, a seller could not have swayed us with what we wanted or what we were willing to offer. We knew that our level of interest in a place was bound with what we felt it was worth and were not swayed by antics to view it otherwise.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> With this analogy, I can't help but think there's a lack of acknowledgement or perhaps savvy for who the buyer is. When we have considered/bought a house, a seller could not have swayed us with what we wanted or what we were willing to offer. We knew that our level of interest in a place was bound with what we felt it was worth and were not swayed by antics to view it otherwise.


I do enjoy your feedback! So thanks for joining in the discussion. 

Let me flip this around a bit. What if you were buying a house (you are interested), but then all the sudden the seller drops the price and begs you to please take it. Tell you what, you can have it for free. 

...a normal person would likely stop and reconsider as to why they are interested and perhaps ask if there is something undesirable about the house. Then the focus suddenly shifts to finding something negative. You suddenly lose all your connections with what was positive in order to make sure you are not about to make a bad decision. (This would be a seller playing too easy to get and detrimentally so)

I do think that those in long term relationships can have a tendency to lose touch with the positive and begin focusing on the negative. I'll also use an example of when I used to be dating. I remember that I liked this one person that was very attractive and had a wonderful personality. It took me some effort to build up the courage to tell her that I liked her. Then I found out she was very interested in me. Very interested and wanted to start dating right away. Then my focus shifted and I found out that she had never had any other boyfriends and that sent me a huge red flag that something might be wrong. I then found out that she came from an extremely poor family which sent up another red flag. I stopped talking to her after that. Looking back what I did was horrible as she was honestly a great person, but for whatever reason my instincts suddenly shifted towards finding things wrong. That wouldn't have happened if she would have taken a slower approach. 

So now I am wondering if that same dynamic tends to be triggered in long term relationships. My wife plays hard to get. While it frustrates me, I'll admit that it does keep me very attracted to her and makes me find her even more desirable. She complains with me that there are never any surprises and that I am too easy and predictable. Because of this, my flaws are painfully on display as well. 

So I have been working on my flaws to overcome those and be a better person. Mostly so far that has been to try and be more self aware of my flaws and how it impacts the dynamics of day to day life in a negative way. I can now actually use this in my favor to validate my wife's frustrations and then overcome my flaws to do something positive and unpredictable. So now I am trying to up my game and not be so easy. 

OMG IT IS NOT EASY FOR ME TO NOT BE EASY IN A FUN WAY!!!!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Girlonfire said:


> 🤣


Whoever voted World Champion seems to not be participating in the forum to give us all the valuable tips and tricks. I guess this person is playing hard to get!


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

badsanta said:


> A dynamic that I notice in all the HD/LD relationships is that the HD is always chasing and pursuing the LD. What if there was a way to reverse that dynamic by the HD playing hard to get? Then the LD would have to be the one to start chasing the HD and putting forth some effort.
> 
> .........While that seems like a manipulation, I don't think so. I see it as just being playful and setting up a fun challenge in which one person will have fun proving they can more than overcome it.
> 
> ...


While a couple can engage in role playing, I think that the typical HD/LD dynamic is something of two different core values.

I have often said that you can not force your partner to change, they have to want to change. You can support any change they have that you like and you can change the way you will allow yourself to be treated, but you can't change them or their beliefs. Only they can do that.

Trying to adopt an LD role to get your partner to become HD is not a game I see working. It sounds too much like a Nice Guy covert contract. My wife would see through such a ploy very quickly. People who are really LD, are really LD, they can't flip a switch and become HD. Yes some may be responsive desire and need to be aroused, but having their partner play LD is not going to trigger a responsive desire partners sexual lust.

The only thing coming even remotely close to what is being asked is if the HD partner truly in their heart is ready to give up on the marriage/relationship. In that case the LD partner needs to determine how much they want the marriage to continue and are they willing to do what it takes to make the marriage work. In that situation there is honesty, there are no covert contracts, and hopefully with communication a compromise can be worked out.

I once had someone explain to me (by analogy) that if your partner loved (really loved) to roll around in mud and it did nothing for you, would you want to roll in mud every day just to please them? Yes you might do it on occasion to please them, but it is nothing that does much of anything for you and you hate the clean-up afterwards. You understand that it is something that they love, need and is core to their emotional happiness, but to you it is just weird. I view couples with serious HD/LD mismatch as similar. They have much different views on what sex and marriage entail.

Just my thoughts.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

badsanta said:


> I do enjoy your feedback! So thanks for joining in the discussion.


Here’s my thoughts, and they’re of the more personalised nature, in that you and I have been part of the TAM community for a number of years now.

What I enjoy about you, and the way we have interacted, is that I feel you have consistently demonstrated an openness in dialogue with me that has felt respectful. This is something that I appreciate. And I do enjoy reading your thoughts.

For this particular topic, I feel the need to express to you the above and also that I do not align with your analogies as I just don’t feel that connection ought to be that hard. Sure, it can take commitment and checking ego but beyond that I can’t relate.

I think what I’m trying to say to you is (((( big hugs )))) and thank you for the thought-provoking threads and manner in which you interact with me and others; even if our stance may be different. With you, I read of a man who keeps trying and vying with, and for, his wife. And truly I wish you the best @badsanta.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> Trying to adopt an LD role to get your partner to become HD is not a game I see working. It sounds too much like a Nice Guy covert contract. My wife would see through such a ploy very quickly. People who are really LD, are really LD, they can't flip a switch and become HD. Yes some may be responsive desire and need to be aroused, but having their partner play LD is not going to trigger a responsive desire partners sexual lust.


After a weekend of allowing the idea of this thread to rattle around in my mind, I too would point out that exact flaw in this strategy. An HD can't play the part of an LD nor can doing so be expected as some form of covert contract that things improve. 

....however.... There is an inherent problem with being too easy, especially as it relates to the HD/LD dynamic. By being too easy, the LD is not challenged to grow. The LD gets exactly what they want and then some. This kind of goes in the direction of the NMMNG concept, but I have found that ideology to be flawed as well. 

At the end of the day, it is very nice to enjoy wanting something. All of us with a HD recognize that and during the moments our libido may dip a little, we miss it. At the same time we have to acknowledge that for the LD, that person more often than not has that dynamic taken away. My wife has many time used the analogy of going for ice cream. She enjoys ice cream a lot, but using this analogy it is as if she is being offered ice cream before she wakes up everyday and being hurried to the store to get some. At some point as time goes by she doesn't get the chance to enjoy wanting ice cream because she was rushed to eat it already again and again. Eventually it becomes a bit much and you see how that analogy is kind of fitting for the LDs perspective (acknowledging everyone is different). 

Then the spice of life then becomes variety. But that variety I think needs to involve the HD upping the game a little. If for any reason to change up the dynamics. Continuing with the ice cream analogy, the HD can advertise the all trips to the ice cream store have been canceled for the week. Perhaps instead everyone will diet (just back rubs and snuggles). Perhaps even exercise (going for fun adventures outdoors). Then if the HD carefully emphasizes that there will be no ice cream, perhaps, just perhaps the LD will get a chance to look forwards to the next trip to get some. Perhaps the LD might even be the one push to go get some! 

An example of this in practice is that I often get a bit to playful with my wife when she is in her morning routines and getting ready. She might be coming out of the shower nude and all too often I might grab her butt and give her a standing hug. For her this likely comes across as frustrating as she is trying to get ready for her day and does not want the stress of being reminded of the proverbial ice cream store during the process. Today as she came careening through the bedroom nude, I playfully joked for her to get dressed in the bathroom or else she was playing with dynamite and that I was tired and didn't need to be distracted. Guess what.... she came and distracted the crap out of me! 

So in that situation, I didn't play the role of the LD. I just twisted the dynamics and was the one asking her not to tempt me (as opposed to me overtly grabbing her butt). It is such a subtle thing, but requires a bit of playfulness. Humorous irony seems to be one of the best ingredients to use. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> For this particular topic, I feel the need to express to you the above and also that I do not align with your analogies as I just don’t feel that connection ought to be that hard. Sure, it can take commitment and checking ego but beyond that I can’t relate.


I think there is a lot about everyone's situation that is very different. Add to that everyone here only gets one small part of the story that the OP chooses to share. To that we try to find some way to relate and offer advice (but do so with so many missing puzzle pieces). 

I am now in a much happier place in my marriage than I was many years ago. Even I have trouble relating to some of my own thoughts from a long time ago. Historically I too often would get too much into my own mind which tended to serve as a disconnect in real life. This thread I admit is somewhat half-baked! But it is just a pattern that I have noticed in my own marriage that is different from where I was a long time ago. In order for my wife to want more, I need to back off a little. If I do so playfully she tends to respond. However there is a problematic history that if I revert to my old ways and show a lot of desire then she tends to withdraw. So it is my own history of wanting too much of a good thing that creates some awkward dynamics if that helps you visualize the situation. 

Cheers to you and Batman for helping be the role models to help all the misfits of TAM!


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

badsanta said:


> After a weekend of allowing the idea of this thread to rattle around in my mind, I too would point out that exact flaw in this strategy. An HD can't play the part of an LD nor can doing so be expected as some form of covert contract that things improve.
> 
> ....however.... There is an inherent problem with being too easy, especially as it relates to the HD/LD dynamic. By being too easy, the LD is not challenged to grow. The LD gets exactly what they want and then some. This kind of goes in the direction of the NMMNG concept, but I have found that ideology to be flawed as well.
> 
> ...


She did that because she knew it would make you happy and she wouldn’t have to follow through. Everyone wins. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I think there is a lot about everyone's situation that is very different. Add to that everyone here only gets one small part of the story that the OP chooses to share. To that we try to find some way to relate and offer advice (but do so with so many missing puzzle pieces).
> 
> I am now in a much happier place in my marriage than I was many years ago. Even I have trouble relating to some of my own thoughts from a long time ago. Historically I too often would get too much into my own mind which tended to serve as a disconnect in real life. This thread I admit is somewhat half-baked! But it is just a pattern that I have noticed in my own marriage that is different from where I was a long time ago. In order for my wife to want more, I need to back off a little. If I do so playfully she tends to respond. However there is a problematic history that if I revert to my old ways and show a lot of desire then she tends to withdraw. So it is my own history of wanting too much of a good thing that creates some awkward dynamics if that helps you visualize the situation.
> 
> Cheers to you and Batman for helping be the role models to help all the misfits of TAM!


Dude...if it works for you then I’m uber happy for you. Your theory would only work in your small majority. Small relating to the majority of people who come here seeking help. 

I’ve also pondered this thread a bit and can’t help getting the feeling that you seem to be a very thirsty man who’s been wandering through dry land. You know ...where every little drop of dew counts. 

Metallica: You know it’s sad...but true 

I do appreciate your enthusiasm though  


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> An example of this in practice is that I often get a bit to playful with my wife when she is in her morning routines and getting ready. She might be coming out of the shower nude and all too often I might grab her butt and give her a standing hug. For her this likely comes across as frustrating as she is trying to get ready for her day and does not want the stress of being reminded of the proverbial ice cream store during the process. Today as she came careening through the bedroom nude, I playfully joked for her to get dressed in the bathroom or else she was playing with dynamite and that I was tired and didn't need to be distracted. Guess what.... she came and distracted the crap out of me!


Which leads to my question, did you then have penetrative sex with her, before she got dressed while she distracted the crap out of you?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Dude...if it works for you then I’m uber happy for you. Your theory would only work in your small majority. Small relating to the majority of people who come here seeking help.


You are probably correct. A long time ago when things were more problematic, this effort would have likely looked more like passive aggressive behavior in combination with covert contracts and subsequent frustration. 

I have now been working to improve my situation for well over ten years and I would say that genuine loving effort and persistence should pay off for most. Too often on TAM I see people focusing only on short-term gains and losses and advising everyone to run for the hills at the first sight of trouble. Too me this seems to be the gesture of "conflict avoidance" and creating a relationship that is only as good as things are good. So over the past decade I have done my work of embracing problems and working on them. I still struggle with a history of bad behaviors that still somehow project into day-to-day dynamics that I have to overcome as well. This would be my spouse assuming that old problems will still persist even through most have been overcome in the relationship.

If I could look back and give myself some advice... that would be to avoid trying to initiate intimacy from a place of not really wanting it and preemptively assuming that I will be rejected. Likewise I was avoiding initiating intimacy when I did want it out of fear that being rejected would hurt too much. The first of those two should have been directed towards playfully playing hard to get instead of being easy to get when I didn't really care.

That may not make much sense, but that is what I see and can share from looking back. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> Which leads to my question, did you then have penetrative sex with her, before she got dressed while she distracted the crap out of you?




I got what I wanted and then some! When I am able to play hard to get it is as if she wants to take away that control and repossess it for herself. The process involves her making me beg at some point and then mercifully giving it to me as if to prove a point.

It is a bit like playing a game that does involve some rather humorous manipulations. One could argue that we don't really know who is manipulating who.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Humor, positive attitude, and the conscious act of anytime a rare we don't have time is encountered don't take it as rejection and get butt hurt feelings. That's never attractive for future sex. And it's just unrealistic. Any no isn't a personal rejection. Don't dwell on it for goodness sake.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

[/QUOTE]


Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Humor, positive attitude, and the conscious act of anytime a rare we don't have time is encountered don't take it as rejection and get butt hurt feelings. That's never attractive for future sex. And it's just unrealistic. Any no isn't a personal rejection. Don't dwell on it for goodness sake.


I had to learn this the hard way, and it was a very painful lesson, given my history. At first, I couldn't understand why my bf would turn down sex, especially b/c we're so new. I don't have the experience of being sexual with one person for years on end (I envy all of you long-marrieds greatly!!). 

Anyway, my advances were putting pressure on him to "perform", when he wasn't necessarily in that state of mind. He needs a little downtime to want sex, I'm pretty much good to go whenever. Now, I know that sounds like a recipe for disaster, but my urges have fluctuated over time, I don't know if it will always be like that for me. Even so, the quality of sex is stellar, very emotionally charged, and intimate, so I don't mind "dining on steak" less often, it's more satisfying, but that might be a woman's (or my) perspective. 

I let him come to me, although I know how to yank his chain when I really need some and make him think it's his idea... I don't talk or touch him sexually at all. He likes to kiss a lot and enjoys affection. If he does it long enough, he revs his own motor with subtle encouragement (affirmative moans, reciprocated touch, etc). Sometimes it doesn't pan out, I lie awake, especially feeling him twitching away in his sleep, but it's less antagonizing than it used to be. 

For reference, we're not on the extremes of HD/LD. While I'd be happy with at least once a day, the nature of our relationship has pretty much forced us to keep it to weekends anyway, so it's not terrible to hold out, I just take care of business when I feel extra stressed. He's good with twice a week, maybe every other day, but I've noticed since I let him take the lead he's really upped his game with longevity. I definitely prefer the improved quality over quantity!

I suppose the question to ask is not just how often would be ideal, but what sex means for you. Are you in it for the pleasure or the emotional connection and intimacy? I don't like unconnected sex for the heck of it, I don't care for quickies, just to "get some". I really enjoy connecting intimately and expressing my emotions and feeling that returned.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> I suppose the question to ask is not just how often would be ideal, but what sex means for you. Are you in it for the pleasure or the emotional connection and intimacy? *I don't like unconnected sex* for the heck of it, I don't care for quickies, just to "get some". I really enjoy connecting intimately and expressing my emotions and feeling that returned.


One big issue in my marriage (me being HD) is that my wife often complained of feel inadequate to please me, repeatedly suggested I would be able to enjoy any willing vagina and that I should just find someone else. 

I am sharing that because in reality there was a huge disconnect from what I wanted from sex and what my wife perceived that I wanted. I absolutely did not want just any willing vagina, but at the same time I was making my wife feel that way because I would want sex at a time when she was completely disconnected from me emotionally. 

Looking I see this dynamic... I wanted sex as a result of feeling emotionally disconnected as a way to feel accepted and reestablish that connection. My wife on the other hand wanted the exact same thing but in reverse. She wanted to be emotionally reconnected first and then sex would naturally result from that. So she would reject my efforts to initiate which would make me feel even more disconnected (subsequently increasing my desire for her to try and reconnect) that would end up leaving me feeling hurt and frustrated. The nature of my desire only served to amplify to her that it was NOT driven by first feeling connected which made her assume that I should be happy with any vagina and that I was just using her for sex (which nothing could be further from the truth). 

So I guess in my marriage that nature of me playing hard to get is to obscure how my drive works and shift that towards playing in a way that first establishes the emotional connection that my wife needs in order to feel desire. By using past frustrations I can use humorous irony to validate her feelings and connect with her. 

So if I historically wanted sex first to reestablish an emotional connection... now I can push her away and tell her to be a better friend if she wants all this! It gets a good reaction and one we can both laugh about. 



Badsanta


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> One big issue in my marriage (me being HD) is that my wife often complained of feel inadequate to please me, repeatedly suggested I would be able to enjoy any willing vagina and that I should just find someone else.
> 
> I am sharing that because in reality there was a huge disconnect from what I wanted from sex and what my wife perceived that I wanted. I absolutely did not want just any willing vagina, but at the same time I was making my wife feel that way because I would want sex at a time when she was completely disconnected from me emotionally.
> 
> ...


If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. We are Ying and Yang, we meet in the middle to share. It does seem ****ty to be on opposite ends, but its what they mean when they say date your spouse, I suppose. Remember how it was before you had sex for the first time, you were both all hot and bothered. It's impossible to maintain that dynamic when there's no longer any mystery and real-life **** gets in the way. 

Interestingly, my bf mentioned the same feeling of inadequacy and mentioned "any **** will do", which is not true at all. It's only human, but I find when I am extra affectionate and careful not to get sexual, he feels safer and doesn't stress about it. Again, its a completely different dynamic being with someone for years. I'm only NOW feeling more secure with him to let go, bc I like familiarity.

I don't need a connection to feel the desire to have sex, but I do need a connection to keep wanting someone specifically. I remember exactly how it felt to "lose" that connection when my ex no longer wanted sex. I still wanted sex, but more so for that feeling than for pleasure.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> Interestingly, my bf mentioned the same feeling of inadequacy and mentioned "any **** will do", which is not true at all. It's only human, but I find when I am extra affectionate and careful not to get sexual, he feels safer and doesn't stress about it. Again, its a completely different dynamic being with someone for years. I'm only NOW feeling more secure with him to let go, bc I like familiarity.


That is interesting about the dynamics of stress that can be caused by the feeling of familiarity/connection of being intimate. Some books I have read compare the stability of a relationship to that of your own two feet. If you place your feel side-by-side and try to keep them there, you become unstable and eventually one suddenly needs to shift outwards to gain stability. If you place your feet apart, you have a very stable stance and it is more difficult to loose your balance. 

The same is suggested to happen with intimacy. When two people get too close, there is a tendency for things to feel unstable until one person shifts away to regain stability. Thus your partner feels more calm and secure when you are not pursuing him.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> That is interesting about the dynamics of stress that can be caused by the feeling of familiarity/connection of being intimate. Some books I have read compare the stability of a relationship to that of your own two feet. If you place your feel side-by-side and try to keep them there, you become unstable and eventually one suddenly needs to shift outwards to gain stability. If you place your feet apart, you have a very stable stance and it is more difficult to loose your balance.
> 
> The same is suggested to happen with intimacy. When two people get too close, there is a tendency for things to feel unstable until one person shifts away to regain stability. Thus your partner feels more calm and secure when you are not pursuing him.


I'm an analyzer, so I've been thinking about the dynamics of my marriage too, and trying to see how to operate different. I think my ex and I were "too good of friends" and he expected me to do everything he wanted to fulfil his socialization needs, but half-assed it or outright refused to do things that interested me.

I find myself now, making an effort to not become too familiar, to keep some mystery just to not become complacent and not be too agreeable and get taken for granted. Maybe we all end up doing that eventually, I honestly don't know. You're in a better position to answer that.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> I'm an analyzer, so I've been thinking about the dynamics of my marriage too, and trying to see how to operate different. I think my ex and I were "too good of friends" and he expected me to do everything he wanted to fulfil his socialization needs, but half-assed it or outright refused to do things that interested me.


OK that problem is fascinating and veers off a little from this thread but is still part of the overall concept. Let me share...

When my wife and I were having the most problems, she blamed me for her unhappiness. The things she needed from me, I often broke promises or just never got around to doing the things she wanted. In the meantime I was also getting frustrated that she would not give me the intimacy I wanted. In that sense there were issues with being emotionally codependent to one another. When it comes to being codependent in terms of sex, that one is an odd exception for those valuing monogamy (as you just can't be unfaithful and go get that somewhere else). However I think sex gets used as a defensive codependent weapon somehow.

Eventually my wife stopped blaming me for her own unhappiness and started taking responsibility for her own wellbeing. If she wanted to do something, she wouldn't wait around for me but she would just do it herself (example might include taking a college course without her seeking my encouragement). As a result she is now a happier person and that brings us closer. Now when we spend time together she has exciting things to share that she has pursued independently. I make it a point to do the same in that I have my own things that I enjoy that are completely independent of her, but I enjoy sharing my happiness from that with her.

...and there you have some ingredients of mystery. Some areas of the relationship where both are completely independent and self content in a way that can bring positive energy into the moments when intimacy occurs (as opposed to the need to discharge negative energy and discontent with one another).

That however still leaves sex as a remaining area of codependence. Playing hard to get perhaps creates a bit of an illusion of sexual independence and therefor pulls a couple together.

Badsanta


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. We are Ying and Yang, we meet in the middle to share. It does seem **ty to be on opposite ends, but its what they mean when they say date your spouse, I suppose. Remember how it was before you had sex for the first time, you were both all hot and bothered. It's impossible to maintain that dynamic when there's no longer any mystery and real-life ** gets in the way.


I'm actually the opposite of this dynamic - for ME, familiarity increases my desire. The longer I was with both of my partners (before things became hurtful and hopeless), the MORE I desired them, until it was almost uncontrollable for me...which was unfortunate and frustrating, because my STBX didn't welcome my desire at all (until he was ready to have sex).



TXTrini said:


> *I don't need a connection to feel the desire to have sex, but I do need a connection to keep wanting someone specifically.* I remember exactly how it felt to "lose" that connection when my ex no longer wanted sex. I still wanted sex, but more so for that feeling than for pleasure.


This is REALLY insightful and interesting!!!


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> OK that problem is fascinating and veers off a little from this thread but is still part of the overall concept. Let me share...
> 
> When my wife and I were having the most problems, she blamed me for her unhappiness. The things she needed from me, I often broke promises or just never got around to doing the things she wanted. In the meantime I was also getting frustrated that she would not give me the intimacy I wanted. In that sense there were issues with being emotionally codependent to one another. When it comes to being codependent in terms of sex, that one is an odd exception for those valuing monogamy (as you just can't be unfaithful and go get that somewhere else). However I think sex gets used as a defensive codependent weapon somehow.
> *
> ...


You know, I did this^^^ and just decided to be happy no matter what was going on. My ex always looked sour, unless people were doing what he wanted and/or "making him feel good". 

It's wonderful that you two were able to come back to each other like that, but it sucks that it leaves you (either) having to resort to manipulative tactics to have your needs fulfilled. I get the whole whys and wherefores about social dynamics and basic human nature, I just don't like it. 

Yeah, you can't really create too much competition in the bedroom unless she has a big ego and wants to "take care" of you better than some kind of toy/doll. I'm not ashamed to admit, that works rather well to my advantage


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I'm actually the opposite of this dynamic - for ME,* familiarity increases my desire*. The longer I was with both of my partners (before things became hurtful and hopeless), the MORE I desired them, until it was almost uncontrollable for me...which was unfortunate and frustrating, because my STBX didn't welcome my desire at all (until he was ready to have sex).
> 
> This is REALLY insightful and interesting!!!


Oh, I agree with ^^, but I'm a horndog, so yeah...  . It's impossible for me to play hard to get, the best I can do is play it cool until we get down to business. Then it's ON.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I'm actually the opposite of this dynamic - for ME, familiarity increases my desire. The longer I was with both of my partners (before things became hurtful and hopeless), the MORE I desired them, until it was almost uncontrollable for me...which was unfortunate and frustrating, because my STBX didn't welcome my desire at all (until he was ready to have sex).


I can empathize with the dynamic of the more you are with you partner over time that desire increases but the ability to initiate intimacy decreases and becomes problematic. What you describe above almost sounds like emotional fusion but from a sexuality point of view. 

So if you step back and look at emotional fusion, this becomes problematic because you can't maintain a calm emotional state when/if your partner loses theirs. There is no emotional independence which makes overcoming problems into a rather toxic situation. One person gets upset and immediately the other. Ideally if one person gets upset the other should remain calm and help ground the situation in order to solve problems and overcome challenges. 

I've never taken time to run the idea of "sexual fusion" through that same thought process to examine the dynamics. Ultimately sex can become a source of anxiety (as in performance anxiety for example) and that anxiety probably likely does get emotionally fused with a partner. Whereas it would be better to remain emotionally independent but doing so would imply being emotionally disconnected from your partner. ...OK now that is something to think about! 

What is awkward is that the best books on the psychology of sex indicate the things are best when both partners are relentlessly selfish in the pursuit of their own pleasure in a way that can be seen and fully experienced by each other. As in feeling deserving of pleasure and being selfish about it in a way that simultaneously resonates with a partner's own pursuit of selfish pleasure. There is a saying that it is better to give than to receive, but in this situation you have to be self confident enough to flip that around and share your own selfish pleasure somehow. 

...so playing hard to get also falls into the category of playfulness that is a bit selfish and independently self centered. As in, "I'm only interested if I am interested, so what is in it for me, meh! Now if we are talking A), B), and C) all together that might get my attention. ... Oh I can have that if I come and get it for myself? You are not going to stop me?" ...now I am starting to see the dynamics of emotional/sexual fusion/independence might work. 

I'll have to allow this thought to rattle around in my head for a while. 

Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Well, I got the old what's in it for me question recently. 
I was looking for the remote, couldn't find, DW had hidden it. Under her..
She told me she may know where it is, I'd have to look for it, she'll tell me, but what's in it for her?

Needless to say when she said you'll have to search me, I did. Found it 😉 but we didn't watch tv for the next hour.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> I can empathize with the dynamic of the more you are with you partner over time that desire increases but the ability to initiate intimacy decreases and becomes problematic. What you describe above almost sounds like emotional fusion but from a sexuality point of view.
> 
> So if you step back and look at emotional fusion, this becomes problematic because you can't maintain a calm emotional state when/if your partner loses theirs. There is no emotional independence which makes overcoming problems into a rather toxic situation. One person gets upset and immediately the other. Ideally if one person gets upset the other should remain calm and help ground the situation in order to solve problems and overcome challenges.
> 
> ...


Hmm...VERY interesting! I will have to think about this for a bit as well, but it's very worthy of consideration!!!

I will add that for ME, although I tend to feel VERY attached emotionally to people I love, I have never had a problem with feeling "fused" to them the way you've described. In fact, I find the opposite to be natural for me -- I am easily able to maintain my emotional independence from people I love deeply and to allow them theirs from me. Those boundaries are easy for me to define and retain, no matter how strong or intense my attachment to them is. I never EVER want to burden anyone I love with my emotions (because I have ALOT of them!), nor do I want to get in the way of their emotional expression. I prefer to be supportive without making it about ME.

It was the same thing with my intense sexual desire I felt for my STBX -- I mostly kept it from him, because that's what he wanted from me. I would fantasize about him and HOPE that he would initiate sex with me, but I tried to please him by ignoring those feelings as much as I could...and being, as I've said before, INVISIBLE.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Well, I got the old what's in it for me question recently.
> I was looking for the remote, couldn't find, DW had hidden it. Under her..
> She told me she may know where it is, I'd have to look for it, she'll tell me, but what's in it for her?
> 
> Needless to say when she said you'll have to search me, I did. Found it 😉 but we didn't watch tv for the next hour.


See...?? Sometimes I think you just like to BRAG...


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I can empathize with the dynamic of the more you are with you partner over time that desire increases but the ability to initiate intimacy decreases and becomes problematic. What you describe above almost sounds like emotional fusion but from a sexuality point of view.
> 
> So if you step back and look at emotional fusion, this becomes problematic because you can't maintain a calm emotional state when/if your partner loses theirs. There is no emotional independence which makes overcoming problems into a rather toxic situation. One person gets upset and immediately the other. Ideally if one person gets upset the other should remain calm and help ground the situation in order to solve problems and overcome challenges.
> 
> ...


This is an interesting take, you expressed so much of what I suspected. I know when sex was painful for me during a portion of my illness, my distress was definitely echoed by my exH. I doubt that's all it is though, I literally watched his arousal die when I was being playful one time and asked him to spank me. We never had playful sexual banter, and I did miss that. I could wiggle suggestively on his lap and twerk in his face, and nothing...

This post has my full attention, I definitely need to think about it some more also. I am really enjoying every aspect of my current relationship, and I would like to keep it going. Great discussion!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

The thoughts I’m typing aren’t well considered so please roll with it nonetheless...

there’s something to creating desire through ‘space’ (not the planetary kind), and with the notion of giving / receiving, I’d argue that there is a certain selfishness with giving too. We do get something from giving, even if we like to kid ourselves that we don’t.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> See...?? Sometimes I think you just like to BRAG...


Even if it is a humble brag, given some posts I read here, I personally welcome reading of the seemingly ‘positive’ too. Balances the experiences being shared.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Well, I got the old what's in it for me question recently.
> I was looking for the remote, couldn't find, DW had hidden it. Under her..
> She told me she may know where it is, I'd have to look for it, she'll tell me, but what's in it for her?
> 
> Needless to say when she said you'll have to search me, I did. Found it 😉 but we didn't watch tv for the next hour.





heartsbeating said:


> *Even if it is a humble brag, given some posts I read here, I personally welcome reading of the seemingly ‘positive’ too. Balances the experiences being shared.*


YES!!!! Definitely, and I hope he knows I was only teasing him!!!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> See...?? Sometimes I think you just like to BRAG...


I am but a humble servant 😉


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Hmm...VERY interesting! I will have to think about this for a bit as well, but it's very worthy of consideration!!!
> 
> I will add that for ME, although I tend to feel VERY attached emotionally to people I love, I have never had a problem with feeling "fused" to them the way you've described. In fact, I find the opposite to be natural for me -- I am easily able to maintain my emotional independence from people I love deeply and to allow them theirs from me. Those boundaries are easy for me to define and retain, no matter how strong or intense my attachment to them is. I never EVER want to burden anyone I love with my emotions (because I have ALOT of them!), nor do I want to get in the way of their emotional expression. I prefer to be supportive without making it about ME.
> 
> It was the same thing with my intense sexual desire I felt for my STBX -- I mostly kept it from him, because that's what he wanted from me. I would fantasize about him and HOPE that he would initiate sex with me, but I tried to please him by ignoring those feelings as much as I could...and being, as I've said before, INVISIBLE.


That would definitely be a terrible way to go through a relationship. Hopefully your new life will be way, way different!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> The thoughts I’m typing aren’t well considered so please roll with it nonetheless...
> 
> there’s something to creating desire through ‘space’ (not the planetary kind), and with the notion of giving / receiving, I’d argue that there is a certain selfishness with giving too. We do get something from giving, even if we like to kid ourselves that we don’t.


My thoughts are most often not well thought out either, but more of an exercise in trying to listen to my own thoughts and make sense of them. My response here is not directed at you, but more so just trying to listen to myself think while projecting/sharing my own life experiences. 

You comment above to me reflects the red flags that would be described in No More Mr Nice Guy about how pleasing others can become too rewarding and subsequently habit forming in a way that can create problems.

There indeed is a certain degree of selfishness in being selfless. Switching topics a bit, if you have ever had to try and help care for grandparents in an assisted living scenario, it becomes painfully aware that they often do NOT want to receive help and still want to do everything they can to remain independent and even try to continue being selfless to help others. How do you help someone in that scenario? As in don't worry about helping grandma cook dinner, She will cook for herself and you as well (does exactly that while obviously in a great deal of back pain just trying to stand at the stove and almost falls down in the process). For the younger person trying to help they end up feeling unwanted and unneeded knowing that they must now eat a dinner that was painfully prepared for them. 

Why does it have to be so hard to help others? Why does it have to be so hard to allow others to help us? Is it because that everyone is trained that being selfless as a way to judge our own self worth? As in don't bother others for things you want or need while instead you should help others with the things they want and need as a way to make yourself wanted and needed. Otherwise you may feel unwanted and unneeded ourselves by others. 

Now with my thoughts unorganized and rambling, I'll ask myself how this dynamic might relate to playing hard to get in marriage. I think it does. As we are all eager to please, but when someone does not want to be pleased that creates a tendency o try harder (so that we can feel wanted and needed). 

In the HD/LD dynamic if there is ONE THING an HD struggles with is the idea of wanting to feel wanted and needing to feel needed. Meanwhile the LD seems unaffected because the HD creates the opposite effect for them. The LD does not get a chance to want to be wanted (as the HD is there wanting it) and therefor the LD never gets a chance to trigger that innate desire to please his/her spouse. (Perhaps this is the "space" you might have been referring to). So by giving your spouse a little space, it creates a desire to connect. Perhaps this desire for connection comes from needing to feel needed and wanting to be wanted and it can be cultivated in a playful and positive way (like playfully hiding the TV remote under yourself!). 

Regards, 
Badsanta

PS: I'll share a real story about my grandmother that could almost be a fable of sorts. I got a phone call from my grandmother one day because she was in an emergency and needed help. She insisted that I leave work and that it was really important. Upon inquiring about the nature of this emergency so that I could arrive prepared, she informed me that she was unable to finish crocheting something because her hands shake too much. I dismissed the emergency and it made her very upset. I then agreed to go anyway to help her calm down and I imagined something unrelated was going on that had her upset, but now she told me not to go and just now worry about helping her anymore. She insisted that I not go. Well I went anyway and watched some tutorials on youtube about how to crochet and realized that doing that stuff gets complicated! When I arrived I found an almost completed poncho she was making for her great grandson's birthday. To her she realized this would be the last birthday gift she would ever be able to make with her own hands and got to a point that she would be unable to complete it in time. His birthday party was that afternoon. I managed to help my grandmother crochet the final section of the poncho into place and she gave me a hug for being disobedient and coming to help her after all that was said. 

I don't know what the moral of that story exactly is, but it is in there somewhere.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> That would definitely be a terrible way to go through a relationship. Hopefully your new life will be way, way different!


Thank you. When I was madly in love with him, it was easier to overlook those dismissive things and excuse them and make up meanings for them. Once my orgasm goggles fell off, they joined the mountain of other issues that pointed to reality, and couldn't be dismissed by me anymore.

I will be just fine, I'm sure. And my life now is already VERY different and improved, if only from the honesty and authenticity!


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

badsanta said:


> My thoughts are most often not well thought out either, but more of an exercise in trying to listen to my own thoughts and make sense of them. My response here is not directed at you, but more so just trying to listen to myself think while projecting/sharing my own life experiences.
> 
> You comment above to me reflects the red flags that would be described in No More Mr Nice Guy about how pleasing others can become too rewarding and subsequently habit forming in a way that can create problems.
> 
> ...


We are funny creatures, huh? We all like to be needed but not to need anyone but like it when people insist on demonstrating their care anyway. I think this is where empathy shines, we know how _we_ feel, if we consider the possibility others may feel similarly, we can be more understanding and considerate of their needs. 

The trouble with being considerate is people raise their expectations of _you, _then take you for granted. I'm not sure most people are aware of their push-pull tendencies, I sure wasn't until my bf mentioned it and how it made him feel. I felt terrible, but appreciated his honesty and try to be more mindful. I have been fighting not to be "too" considerate b/c of being taken for granted in the past and ended up being the jackass. 

What I've never been able to understand is, why after years together, people stop communicating. There's no end of it in the courting period (and sex ! ). That always stumped me in my marriage and I don't quite know how to circumvent that, it has me keeping one eye open now to preempt that from ruining another relationship. 

Thanks for sharing that story about your grandma, it made me think of mine. My grandma mostly raised me, so we cooked together many times and she had no issues eating my cooking. She was happy when I took over the baking for church sales, though we still enjoyed making special things together. 

Personally, I like to be considered without prompting, it means more. I don't say anything, b/c I think it either comes naturally or it doesn't to people. Some people are givers, some people are takers and some people find a balance because they like the comfort of receiving and want to share that with their loved ones. I don't think that attitude is something that can be taught, people have to want it. I think it comes down to the degree of innate selfishness.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> *What I've never been able to understand is, why after years together, people stop communicating.* There's no end of it in the courting period (and sex ! ). That always stumped me in my marriage and I don't quite know how to circumvent that, it has me keeping one eye open now to preempt that from ruining another relationship.


Ooooh! I think I know the answer to this one. I've actually read about something that relates to this: Early in a relationship there are a lot of fun things that two people can share about themselves to the other. As time passes there are less and less good things to share. What remains are the bad/undesirable things and in order to keep up a good impression an effort is made to try and keep those things hidden (like bad habits/vices). Eventually those undesirable things likely spill out into the relationship. Some couples will shame each other when this happens and then the effort to keep these things hidden is reinforced. 

So you can see me, but only the parts of me I want you to see. It is easy at first, but then becomes more challenging. Eventually some folks will completely deny who they really are in order to maintain this facade for the other, but at some point it breaks and everything falls apart. 

Ideally couples should be able to discuss their own personal faults with the confidence that doing so shows the other what is really needed in order to help each other feel loved. But as I mentioned previously sometimes people don't want help, especially when it comes to acknowledging and coping with one's personal faults. 

Regarding playing hard to get (as I enjoying tying all of the conversations back to this), one of my wife's faults is her own body image. She is not happy with herself. So when I tell her that she is beautiful it causes her anxiety because she is unable to believe me and can't understand why I would lie to her. She then concludes that I am likely manipulating her in some way for my own personal benefit (like getting more sex) and that makes her upset. Meanwhile if I don't compliment her or even go so far as to validate the idea that she needs to work harder on herself, it puts a huge smile on her face as if I finally understand her. It frustrates me that she can't see that I think she is beautiful and she refuses to let me help her with that. 

Badsanta


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

badsanta said:


> Why does it have to be so hard to help others? Why does it have to be so hard to allow others to help us? Is it because that everyone is trained that being selfless as a way to judge our own self worth? As in don't bother others for things you want or need while instead you should help others with the things they want and need as a way to make yourself wanted and needed. Otherwise you may feel unwanted and unneeded ourselves by others.


Some big topics here in one post! I'll need to let it marinade.

However, my knee-jerk reaction is that I would see the notion of 'helping' quite separate to the sexual desire/dynamic in a relationship concerned with giving and receiving.

In the scenario of the older person still wanting to cook whereby someone else might question whether that is 'right', well, that is a basic individual choice of the older person. There's also a difference between doing for someone, particularly when it's not welcomed, that can be disempowering; rather than facilitating alongside. The dominant idea of what it means to 'help' or be 'helped' can be misguided, despite best intentions.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

On a slightly different note (as mentioned, @badsanta I'll need to let the other post marinade a bit!), I came across a book called 'Come As You Are' ...it's about psychology etc of women's sexuality. From the description, it raises that factors of stress, mood, trust and body image are central to a woman's sexual well-being. Has anyone read this?

I'm not reading it but when I came across it, I did think of this thread for some reason.

I'll be honest that I was browsing audio-books and clicked on the title without really noticing the design of the book cover. I actually thought it was going to be about Nirvana or Kurt Cobain  'Come as you are, as you were, as I want you to be.' Anyway, I ended up with Bram Stoker's Dracula instead, but that's for the Social Spot.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

heartsbeating said:


> I came across a book called 'Come As You Are' ...it's about psychology etc of women's sexuality. From the description, it raises that factors of stress, mood, trust and body image are central to a woman's sexual well-being. Has anyone read this?


I read it (painfully) when trying to figure out if I could salvage the trash heap that was the sexual relationship I had with my wife. It’s long winded and painful to read for anyone who values their time however the fundamental premise “dual control model” of female sexuality I did find useful.

The basic premise with the dual control model is that like a car there is an accelerator and brakes. 

Brakes are a different way of thinking about what some of the men’s books call “unattractive behaviors”. The men’s books frame it in terms of you (the man). What about you is pressing her brakes? The part where “Come As You Are” provides insight is that the woman by herself may be applying the brakes.

Here’s an example which I found almost incredible.

When I was talking with my wife trying to see what was going on with us she told me she was afraid of getting pregnant. I was thinking to myself, “What the fuuuuuuuuu...” we had literally had sex thousands? of times with no pregnancy. However when she said it I immediately believed her and could see how that would be a brake right out of the book. It was a “holy s***” moment for me.

She told me about another few brakes that also made sense to me and those I could even see as a pattern over time that I ignored or didn’t appreciate properly.

So part of getting straightened out was right out of “Come As You Are”‘s playbook. Do what you can to stop those brakes from being pressed. The part where men’s books fall short is they give a gloss over treatment to the self-applied braking the woman might have.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> On a slightly different note (as mentioned, @badsanta I'll need to let the other post marinade a bit!), I came across a book called 'Come As You Are' ...it's about psychology etc of women's sexuality. From the description, it raises that factors of stress, mood, trust and body image are central to a woman's sexual well-being. Has anyone read this?


I've read that book and found it to be insightful. A part of it is about self confidence and nonconcordance. For men this would be when you get aroused but your body does not produce an erection, then your sexual inhibition systems overreacts causing issues and anxiety. For women this problem might relate to not producing any lubrication or not becoming aroused when doing something that should work. Also one can suddenly become aroused for no apparent reason when it is not possible to have sex, and this creates anxiety and negative feelings towards arousal. 

She used 50 Shades a likely example of nonconcordance and shared her own stories of women that might try something similar that made them produce a lot of lubrication but yet described the experience as something that never created any arousal. 

I think the point she was making was that not producing lubrication when aroused is perfectly normal and it is not only OK to use additional lubricants but that everyone should plan on using ample lubricant to improve the quality of sex. Don't get self confident if you are not producing enough on your own. 

Of course my wife refused to read it. I guess the idea of not reading self help books facilitates her stance of being the one playing hard to get.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

badsanta said:


> Of course my wife refused to read it. I guess the idea of not reading self help books facilitates her stance of being the one playing hard to get.


Haha my wife was listening to it in the car and didn’t make it past the 2nd chapter. I don’t blame her it’s really terribly written. She should publish a Cliff’s Notes pocket edition.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> There's also a difference between doing for someone, particularly when it's not welcomed, that can be *disempowering;* rather than facilitating alongside. The dominant idea of what it means to 'help' or be 'helped' can be misguided, despite best intentions.


I think that dynamic may be part of a sexual dynamic as well. The person playing hard to get tends to have more power in the relationship. Although some psychologists suggest that perspective feels powerless because they can't control the HD's desire. The one thing the LD can control is when and when not to have sex. When something is done to make a change to that (like making a schedule for sex) it probably does feel disempowering. 

The few times I have successfully played around with the idea that my wife could not get me aroused, she quickly shifted gears to prove me wrong and perhaps empower/reinforce that she can control that. 

My wife always complains that I get myself aroused and subsequently that it is not her problem to deal with it. As I mentioned previously this is where LDs feel powerless. Perhaps the idea of playing hard to get is what shifts that dynamic, allows her to feel in control of my arousal, which then facilitates her enjoying feeling some ownership over it. 

Wow, that has got me thinking again now!


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

I think the “play hard to get” gambit in the HD/LD construct is a one-sided game only you know you’re playing. In a healthy relationship, it’s playful banter like someone else mentioned and resembles teasing a girl or boy you liked in elementary school. It plays into a healthy “challenge accepted” dynamic. Outside of that, the other partner thinks its pathetic. Or your partner feels entitled to not have to provide something worth pursuing or desiring, just companionship.

Next, you have its close cousin, the “wanting what you can’t have”-thing which doesn’t work if they could care less. This happens in relationships after break-ups or “switch flips” where all of sudden you realize you had access to them and now you don’t. You become obsessed with getting it and even though you had it and took it for granted.

Lastly, you have the subtle game of “making the other person aware you have options.” By options I mean ensuring your spouse sees other people flirting and being attracted to you. This out of all of them has the most potency especially if your too familiar and into a routine. But also can have the opposite effect. Ester Perel’s “Mating in Captivity” touches on this. Often times we quit seeing our partners “out in the wild” and that was what attracted you to them in the first place. We are now seen as annoying partners, companions or co-parents. Now this can rile jealousy and either turns toxic or stirs up mate-guarding behavior or renewed interest. 

If your partner is content with your sex life or isn’t interested in it period, you “playing hard to get” is tantamount to playing relationship solitaire.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

aaarghdub said:


> I think the “play hard to get” gambit in the HD/LD construct is a one-sided game only you know you’re playing.


The dynamics of the HD playing hard to get in the HD/LD dynamic is a different one for sure. 

Using some of what I have learned from this thread in that A) the LD needs to feel in control and B) the HD needs to be selfish, I worked out a scenario that worked (at least for me). 

My wife and I were snuggling and I got aroused, so I blamed that on her. She insisted that she was NOT in the mood and I replied that was OK because I wasn't going to give her any anyway (that puzzled her). I told her that she needed to take care of me and it was her responsibility and for her not to worry because I had no intention of returning the favor. She proceeded to say that she was willing to take care of me with her hands and no more. I made it a point to let her know how much I enjoyed that and too bad that she wasn't going to get to enjoy this moment because I wasn't going to lift a finger to return the favor. 

She then jumped on top of me and aggressively had her way with me! She claimed she did it just for me because I was begging for it with puppy dog eyes (may have been true). I think she enjoyed herself more than me! 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In reflecting on this topic for another week there is something else I have to share. Take the following behaviors:

A) HD folks are likely to initiate intimacy often and be rejected. 

B) HD folks tend to have to practice a lot of patience as the alternative is to get frustrated and have yourself a tirade of passive aggressive tantrums.

Those two things above beautifully combine into playing hard to get! All one needs to do is to preemptively assume that the idea of sex will be rejected and then engage in playful passive aggressive banter that is ironically humorous and awkwardly overconfident. This can be done by instead of initiating intimacy you tell the LD spouse that they can't have your wonderfulness. No matter how much they want it. Strategically pick a time that sex is indeed impossible and this will alter the dynamics of the LD because what you are saying is true. Some LD's in this scenario with quickly shift towards initiating just as a s#it test, but the HD has to stick to their guns and claim that the LD's efforts to initiate are a result of how wonderful the HD is with all their awesome prowess, but that now is not the right time and insist that the LD needs to calm down. 

(sometimes the above will result in the LD getting aggressive and making sex happen right then and there)



Badsanta


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> A dynamic that I notice in all the HD/LD relationships is that the HD is always chasing and pursuing the LD. What if there was a way to reverse that dynamic by the HD playing hard to get? *Then the LD would have to be the one to start chasing the HD and putting forth some effort.*


PLEASE DO!
I can't believe I had to BEG for this throughout my life (I'm LD - at least compared to my partners WTF) . Bah!


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