# Wife is Unaffectionate and Im in a deep depression



## AloneEmotionally (Jan 6, 2010)

I posted this as a response to another thread but wanted to create a separate thread not just for married people (other men especially) who have wives who not only dont like to kiss but are generally unaffectionate and are causing them some kind of depression.

I am a man, 43 years old with 2 young children, married to a woman who hates to kiss for 15 years. The problem for me is that even though i kind of knew going in (I think she pretended to like it a bit more than she did) I knew that she was a generally unaffectionate person. The mistake I made is in thinking that I could change her. I cant. She will kiss me during sex out of obligation because she knows I will not have sex with her without kissing. But thats it. When she gives me a kiss goodbye in the morning I might as well be kissing a stone.

Its not just the kissing - she doenst really like any kind of affection. So I have to go on faith that she loves me when in reality my brain is telling me that she not only doesnt love me, but finds me repulsive in some way. In fact, I just thought she hated me for all these years. I told her 2 years ago I was leaving. During therapy it became clear that she did love me but just wasnt into affection. 

I never had this experience with any prior girlfriends and am considered a rather good looking guy, but my self esteem is at an all time low and I am battling a daily depression because of it.

We have been married for almost 15 years and have 2 wonderful boys that we love and adore. We get along fine in just about every other way, but the lack of affection in my life is driving me into a very dark place. At age 43 I am looking at the rest of my life with someone who will never make me feel the way I need to feel and its awfully depressing. She may say in a therapy session that she loves me, but there isnt anything else she does or says that seems to indicate that. Like most guys, I dont need that much - an occasional hug and passionate kiss is fine. But I feel alone emotionally and feel trapped in a loveless relationship. She doesnt compliment me and seems mostly miserable herself. So on top of the lack of affection, I have to deal with an unhappy person (we moved across the country for my work 6 years ago and she has mostly been unhappy here). If not for the daily depression I wouldnt mind as much, but the depression and feelings that go along with that are dragging me down.

Usually im nervous on airplanes but lately ive had thoughts that "well if anything happens I really dont care". If I die I die.

Its sad, but thats where I am at emotionally. Ive talked to her about it and she has acknowledged it, but her response is "I guess I have to try to meet you halfway somehow". Halfway would be nice. She hasnt done that (other than an occasional back scratch at night which although its like throwing bread to a starving man, isnt really sustaining in any kind of way).

Im trying...I would warn anyone not yet married that if you think someone who is unaffectionate is going to change, its unlikely they will. My wife has very unaffectionate parents who do love her very much and she just doesnt understand the need people have for displays of affection. She has no use for it and is uncomfortable with it. If you know affection and kissing is something you need, do not rationalize it away even if you think someone is perfect in every other way (which is what I did). You will end up depressed and resentful (like me).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I know a guy who jolted his wife into a good rythm. He said "if you are not willing to aggressively work on the marriage - and that means changing your physical/sexual behavior - then we are done"

He insisted on a minimum amount of sex and big shocker she told him a bunch of stuff he was doing OUTSIDE the bedroom that turned her off. She disliked that right when she came in after work he was crowding her. With talk - with hugs etc. She needed a transition period - and then she was happy to approach him. And a few other things like that. 

And now things are good. In truth though - this is almost impossible to change for most people. Seems like you let her talk about wanting to change - without demanding that she actually do anything specific. Which is a sure recipe for nothing happening. 

The benefit of insisting on a certain amount of sex is that it may get her to tell you what is in her head - just to make the sex more bearable. 





AloneEmotionally said:


> I posted this as a response to another thread but wanted to create a separate thread not just for married people (other men especially) who have wives who not only dont like to kiss but are generally unaffectionate and are causing them some kind of depression.
> 
> I am a man, 43 years old with 2 young children, married to a woman who hates to kiss for 15 years. The problem for me is that even though i kind of knew going in (I think she pretended to like it a bit more than she did) I knew that she was a generally unaffectionate person. The mistake I made is in thinking that I could change her. I cant. She will kiss me during sex out of obligation because she knows I will not have sex with her without kissing. But thats it. When she gives me a kiss goodbye in the morning I might as well be kissing a stone.
> 
> ...


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## AloneEmotionally (Jan 6, 2010)

Im reading through this a few times and its interesting. you are right, I have not been specific. I guess part of the problem is that I have really lost all interest in having sex with her. I dont want more sex with her. Its very hard to have interest in having sex with someone who doesnt like to kiss you. But what I can do is explain to her exactly that. I dont think its gotten through to her that I am not interested in her sexually because of her lack of affection.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Write it down - exactly what you want her to DO. And give it to her. And then she won't claim/feign ignorance later. 

But if it were me my delivery style would go like this. 

I need you to do some things for ME that are going to be hard for YOU - at least initially. Rest assured I will do all in my power to make this as palatable for you as possible. But you HAVE to be honest with me. Lets start with breath:
- Are there any foods I eat give me bad breath?
- How often do I have bad breath when I kiss you? (notice not do I - but how often do I? makes it easier for her to give an honest answer.)
- Would you like me to brush my teeth/gargle just before we kiss? What is your favorite toothpaste/mouth wash for me to use?

I want you to kiss me the way you MOST LIKE to be kissed. Kiss me that way - so I can learn to kiss YOU that way. 

Is there any type massage/back scratch you like me to give you?

FYI: Something is odd if she really does not like a massage - ask her to massage you the way she most likes/least dislikes to be touched. 
















AloneEmotionally said:


> Im reading through this a few times and its interesting. you are right, I have not been specific. I guess part of the problem is that I have really lost all interest in having sex with her. I dont want more sex with her. Its very hard to have interest in having sex with someone who doesnt like to kiss you. But what I can do is explain to her exactly that. I dont think its gotten through to her that I am not interested in her sexually because of her lack of affection.


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## mirmex (Jan 15, 2010)

when I read this thread I felt as if I had written it myself. In fact, it made me participate in a forum for the first time in my cybernetic life. What a (poor) consolation to see that we are a unique species that shares similar feelings and other people around the globe is going through the same situation as I do...


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## mirmex (Jan 15, 2010)

I think MEM11 has very good intentions, but this may happen in a fairy-tale world. In my view this is a Gordian-knot situation, and the only way to solve it is with Alexander´s method (if you are brave enough, which is not my case so far).


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## quattrokev (Jan 25, 2010)

I feel the same way. I bend over backwards to ensure my wife is comfortable and has everything she needs yet at the end of the day she has no time for affection leading to intimacy and in fact she has no sex drive. the worst part is i am in love with her and think she is the hottest thing since Megan Fox. I try everything but she is non responsive. I dont have any solutions for your or my dilemma but you are not alone. I dont want to live like this much more.


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## mommy2 (Oct 27, 2009)

You mention that you moved for your work 6 years ago and that she is not happy with the move? Perhaps she is harboring resentment toward you about that? Affection for a woman can be triggered emotionally. So if she is harboring resentment and anger toward you - this can result in not being affectionate. 

I am an affectionate person - but when I had built up all this resentment toward my H - then affection was the first thing to go.


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## CaliRN (Jan 2, 2010)

i agree with MEM11363 that u should write down your needs and give it to her and if she doesn't put the effort to meet u half way she's not willing to save ur marriage. Then u half to ask urself if its worth stayn for ur kids


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If she truly loves you and is not unhappy, but is uncomfortable with affection, you can find a therapist for her to go to, or both of you together, where she can learn that it's safe and rewarding to show affection. You may have to put your foot down about this.


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

Is she affectionate with the children? Does she give them hugs and kisses?

If not, then maybe she really does not like affection. I do not know of one mother who doesn't relish is showering affection on her young sons.


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## stoomey74 (Sep 20, 2009)

I could have written this post!! I am in the same boat!! It is/has destroyed my marriage!!

Anybody have any ideas? Give my wife a list of what i wanted did nothing for me so now I am resentful, depressed and we are seperated. The worst part was we went to Doctors to increase her libbido and she found another man to get physical with! Maybe I just suck!


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## lonelyspouse30 (Jan 27, 2010)

@AloneEmotionally know that you are definitely not alone. I could have written your post almost verbatim with some very minor changes (I'm 35, three kids, married 8 1/2 years) and one major change: I *didn't* think I could change my wife's nonexistent interest in physical affection.

Before marriage I was in a relationship with an incredible sex life, but other problems. Sex, even though fantastic for both of us (the sort of relationship where if I picked her up from the airport, the clothes were off miles before we made it home) wasn't enough to overcome those problems.

When I met my wife, we were incredibly compatible on every level except for physical affection. The idea of knowing fights about role of family in our relationship, finances, social class, etc. (all the big issues) would not be an issue was refreshing. The only problem we had was different libidos, and I mistakenly thought that wouldn't be an issue in the long run given everything else we had going for us.

I thought *I* could change, that a physical relationship could be less important for me when we were compatible in every other way.

I was horribly wrong.

And now I feel very stuck with the situation I put myself in.

Those not yet married should be wary of that situation, as well.

We've had heart-to-heart conversations and even line-in-the-sand conversations, and there have been vows to change. But nothing changes. It is a very depressing situation, indeed. I have a very hard time coming to grips with the idea that she loves me, but she's not willing to express that love in a way that I can best understand and very much need to experience even though she knows it is important to me.

Back in high school I took a morality/philosophy class where we talked about love. Early on in that class we memorized a definition of love, the source of which I no longer reminder.

Love: To seek and foster the good in others in the context of their concrete situations.

It turns out my concrete situation is that I feel loved through physical affection. And my wife is not physically affectionate. A sad, sad situation.


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## gmailgirl (Aug 29, 2009)

I agree with you "Alone emotionally" and "lonely spouse". Even I feel the same way. My husband loves me but just not in the way my body/heart/soul desires. In all other aspects he is a great guy but this side of me is empty which is very sad. In spite of our deep conversations and care it just doesn't change. It comes from inside and one cannot pretend to do something for a long period of time. It is extremely sad and hope things work out for you.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

This thread is very depressing.

All good men reading this, if a man is not getting sex, or feeling as if his woman is finding him sexually attractive, this is absolutely a problem and should not be endured, it is emotional abuse plain and simple.

In reading this thread, there are some of the usual suspects, the biggest of course is the "nice guy" scenario, where a man bends over backwards to give his woman everything and then is surprised that she is cold to him, or worse will leave him in the dust for some other man.

So for the "nice guy", the solution is simple. Stop the nonsense.

Do NOT put your woman on a pedestal, do not appease her, beg her, or in most ways seem to revolve your life around pleasing her. Why? Because this is making her feel like a "charity case", and makes you look like her child to her eyes, and not her man.

A woman is not looking for a man to treat her like a "charity case", she is looking for her man to be confident, secure, stable, to be a good man that both knows what he wants, and has the mettle to go for it.

Yes, this is much like the "Gordian knot", absolutely, and yes this is taking courage, courage to face the relationship with your woman, and your relationship with the world really, with the attitude and honesty to say very directly what it is you want as a man, and to be the man that will have what he wants. 

To be this man, to pursue happiness with this kind of courage, and to invite your woman to share in this pursuit, this is what lights a fire in a woman.

Yes, this starts with getting control of yourself, the hygiene, the physical fitness, the career, the addictions, all of these things in balance, and these things are just a start. 

And all these things are a part of this one thing, to be the man in control of himself and his environment, yes (again) the dominant man.  

These other things, to negotiate as if sex was a poker chip, is at best appeasement and begging to a woman, and at worse will make her feel cheap and used. Needless to say, it is not leading to happiness for the long term.

Also this is important, actions speak louder than words. To think that words, conversations, and promises alone are going to light sexual attraction, is only smoke and mirrors.

Instead, know this, attitude is everything, and this attitude is to be demonstrated in actions primarily, and words sparingly.

Knock off the "I love you's" constantly. Work instead on how you look at your woman, how you touch your woman, and when you do use words, pay attention to even the tone of your voice.

To behave, and live the attitude just as the following is the goal: "That you can have any woman in the world, yet you desire your woman". 

To live this attitude, how would that make you dress, behave, and act? Guess what, it was how you dress, behaved, and acted when you and your woman were dating, and she was feeling the attraction and fire because just this, in her mind "you could have any woman in the world, yet you desire her". 

So when the marriage vows were made, why is many times the man thinking it is the finish line, when instead it is, for the actual reality, just the starting line!

Do not lose this attitude! Do not stop being the dominant man and instead try to be some "nice guy", which is really just a man trying to act like a woman. A woman is not going to be fooled by this, or attracted to this. 

To do these things, is to make it so the woman is aroused even just anticipating the next physical encounter, and see that her sexual appetites should equal or even surpass the appetite of her man, is to know how sexual and passionate the relationship between the good man and woman can be in marriage.

Good men and women, do not be satisfied with anything less.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Fully agree with the post before me, and sorry to be off topic, but i request the same kinda advice for the womens' side of the forum .


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## mirmex (Jan 15, 2010)

I also agree with "Alone emotionally" and "lonely spouse". I am 42 and have one kid. We have been married for 10 years. I haven't had many relationships before because at the time I was terribly shy and almost unable to talk coherently to any girl that attracted me. Nevertheless, before knowing my wife I did have a "crazy" relationship with a girl that taught me a lot about sex but who was unable to be serious in any way (the relationship ended in a very funny way but this is another story). After that, I felt exhausted and I was more than happy to find a serious girl with whom I could plan something. She didn't want sex before marriage and I respected that. But I didn't imagine that the situation would not change after our wedding. It was very difficult almost from the beginning but even though I kept trying for quite a lot. Eventually we got a kid, which was something of a miracle considering the frequency of intimacy. Little by little I felt tired of the situation, and insisted and tried no more. Nowadays, the situation is that I have lost all physical interest in her and I am afraid also all affection I had for her. It is almost one year since we had our last contact. And I write "last" because I do not expect to have another one in the future. We both adore our kid, personally I couldn't imagine I could love a human being so much. I cannot deplore to have know my wife because that would mean that my little princess would have never existed and I cannot imagine the world without her. But I am stuck in a terrible situation. I am not a saint and I feel the attraction of women very intensively. On the other hand, I do not want to cheat my wife because it would cost me a lot psychologically to live on lies and having to hide something. In some occasions I meet nice girls and invite them to have a coffee with me. I am not a bad looking guy and have a good reputation in my work. Because I have a very high profile job, there is virtually no girl that would refuse an invitation from my part (although I am aware that this is more due to my position than to my physical appearance). But when I am taking this coffee with a girl I immediately feel stop by an internal mechanism of repression and I am unable to go any further than that. And at night, before falling asleep, I almost exclusively think on having sex with one girl or the other. For a long time I tried to explain my wife that I cannot live without sex, but she seemed unable to understand this. I event felt guilty for this in some occasions although I tried to convince myself that this a natural need. I must add that this is not the full story. We have very different personalities and interests. I think we still would have problems even with the sex issue solved. In a nutshell, I do not enjoy life with her. On the other hand the idea of separation or divorce scares me. And specially if I think of my daughter. I do not want to harm her and to make her a child of a split family. I am in an awful situation right now and I understand the feeling of "Alone Emotionally" getting into an airplane and thinking "ok, if I die I die". It is as if I knew that the only way out would be to divorce my wife and start from scratch, but I do not have the courage to take the decision. I just perpetuate the situation like that. Everyday I feel that I can resist just for one or two days maximum but I keep on going. The thing that terrifies me more is the long term, seeing myself in the same situation after 5 years or more and with the impression of having lost my life for nothing. Sad, very sad...


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## mirmex (Jan 15, 2010)

...and in addition: I am also very annoyed by the fact that we only have one child. I would have loved to have more, ideally up to four, but at least two. Although my wife "in theory" also wanted more children, when it came to the "practical procedures" she always found an excuse to postpone it. Now that I realize that I may have no more children I feel devastated, both for me and for my child's sake. Right now, writing this, I cannot avoid tears running through my face.


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## gmailgirl (Aug 29, 2009)

This is really sad. Keep us posted mirmex. Hope we could all help each other. Why is it sometimes things just don't have a solution? I am stuck in a similar situation but don't know what to do.


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## mirmex (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks for your support gmailgirl, it helps to know that we are not alone...


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## lonelyspouse30 (Jan 27, 2010)

Reading about others in a similar situation and the mere fact that people are giving advice is comforting.

I think I'll take the approach tonight of just going for it, not feeling things out if success seems likely or not (which is what a person resorts to after being rejected so many times), and making it very obvious what my interest is.

If she says no because of a headache or whatever, I'll simply ask her to be specific about a date and time.

Who knows, maybe manning up will work.

If not, I'll try again and again, at least a few times, and again ask for a specific date and time for a rain check.

It may not work, and it may all come crashing down again to the same old loneliness and rejection, but let's face it, can't get much worse than the way things are now.


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## mirmex (Jan 15, 2010)

My head tells me that everything is over, but my heart prevents me from taking the logical steps. I feel as if I were told to keep on going without food. For how long could I resist? Is there any doubt of the final result? 
As I posted before, I lost all interest in her, I cannot imagine being intimate with her any more. So which way out do I have? chemical castration? On the other hand I cannot stand losing my child. What can I do?


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Wow. . .the initial poster had a great way of expressing himself and connecting with many guys of the forum.

Like him, I was the "Nice Guy" (everybody would say it about me. . .her parents, my parents, my co-workers. . .even if I am not about to sound it) and didn't get any affection for it.

I know it sounds pretty drastic but BigBadWolf has the answer and it's one I applied.

I self-assassinated the nice guy and I absolutely flattened my wife with this divorce - financially and emotionally.

It's bittersweet I'll admit - on one hand, this is the one you had that deep affection and longing for, that she didn't accept - that's the bitterness. The "sweetness", and it's only a little sweet, is seeing her "get hers" handed to her in the divorce. After 15 years, it's "coming around". SHe has to borrow from her parents (or her parents will probably give it to her b/c she's spoiled and wont' downsize) to pay me out. . .child support doesn't help her maintain her lifestyle she wants. . .it's all changing for her.

Until your wife sees what's at stake, I don't think she'll change. I really hope she does though, for you sake. . .but it doesn't sound good. If you really let her know the following:

1. You'll lose half the house
2. You'll lose 70% of your contribution to household income (30% is a guesstimate for child support)
3. You'll be 40+ and trying to date

and most of all:

4. You'll fracture the family

And yes, it's about "her". . .pin it on her because there's no excuse for an "unaffectionate" marriage.

You see, for some women, like maybe your wife and my stb-x, sex/affection is a "commodity" to be bargained with. Not saying it's so with your wife, but maybe it is. Women will absolutely withhold it sometimes so don't go blaming it on her unaffectionate parents and her psychobabble childhood. If she had Tom Cruise in her bed, you can bet she'd be locking lips with him.

Until she understands the consequences of divorce. . .she just won't get it. She really sounds like my wife where she went from 28 years old to being 85 years old with the transition of the wedding ring.

Either she'll change and open up a dialogue or you'll divorce.

Either way, if you make this decision BigBadWolf laid out. . .the problem is solved.

My problem has been solved and I have met an affectionate woman and wondering WTF I was doing all those years - losing my 30's to her.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

MIMEX,

As far as losing your child, you won't lose your child.

Let me also give you a little background to share with my situation (and we all go on a little too much here but bear with me). 

I was "Mr. Mom" and worked 2 part-time jobs (which now I have expanded into fulltime). . .I ran the kids to the doctors, I did a lot of parenting in the summer - swim lessons, birthdays, took care of the lawn, cleaned, cooked sometimes, laundry. . .my stb-x did too - it was fairly egalitarian. By no means did she do nothing. My middle son I did all the middle of the night awakenings.

Truthfully, deep down, and I know it's kind of horrible to share this, I wished I could work more and be with the kids less.

I know it's sounds horrible to say that but I didn't really get in 40 hours/week because of issues too complicated for this thread.

Now, I am separated from my kids and you know what? It ain't so bad. I can date. I work a mile from the house so I can take the older ones for a dinner at IHOP or something and I don't have to do homework/baths/disipline any more like I did. I work as much as I want (I like to pour in 40+ hours now). I am free from the "Ball and Chain" of a dysfunctional marriage that my partner didn't want to make functional. I try to remain in my kid's "social orbit" - which mostly involves sports and band musicals.

It's all on her now, because she did choose to be the primary parent (I genuinely offered) and guess what? I am still Dad.

I am actually getting a place 1 mile from the beach and they'll have summers with me, more than likely, if she doesn't fight it, and I'll probably rent a snowbirds house in the winter for 2-3 months in the winter to be closer to them. I feel like I am about to live a dream really.

It sounds like you are a devoted father but you know what? You can adapt to being a divorced father and it may really, really surprise you (like it did me) that you may actually kind of like it. And you are talking to "Mr. I'm-such-a-married-guy" before.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MM,
Do you have the courage to say this to your wife:

It is obvious that you dislike sex and think it is unimportant to the marriage. So I am going to find a girlfriend and discreetly enjoy her company. 

And then shut up and let her talk. If she says - fine - do what you want - tell her that you will be going out Friday and Saturday nights. And then drop it until showtime. Dress up really nicely for both nights. 

If she threatens divorce, just say "if that is what you want". But force her to either acknoledge that it is totally unacceptable to you, for her to claim exclusive sexual access to your body, and then deny it. 

It is possible she will freak and promise to change. If she does I would insist on a firm commitment of at least 2 times a week and also I would insist that she speak more openly with you about the things that turn her on/off outside of bed and also the things that turn her on/off in bed.









mirmex said:


> I also agree with "Alone emotionally" and "lonely spouse". I am 42 and have one kid. We have been married for 10 years. I haven't had many relationships before because at the time I was terribly shy and almost unable to talk coherently to any girl that attracted me. Nevertheless, before knowing my wife I did have a "crazy" relationship with a girl that taught me a lot about sex but who was unable to be serious in any way (the relationship ended in a very funny way but this is another story). After that, I felt exhausted and I was more than happy to find a serious girl with whom I could plan something. She didn't want sex before marriage and I respected that. But I didn't imagine that the situation would not change after our wedding. It was very difficult almost from the beginning but even though I kept trying for quite a lot. Eventually we got a kid, which was something of a miracle considering the frequency of intimacy. Little by little I felt tired of the situation, and insisted and tried no more. Nowadays, the situation is that I have lost all physical interest in her and I am afraid also all affection I had for her. It is almost one year since we had our last contact. And I write "last" because I do not expect to have another one in the future. We both adore our kid, personally I couldn't imagine I could love a human being so much. I cannot deplore to have know my wife because that would mean that my little princess would have never existed and I cannot imagine the world without her. But I am stuck in a terrible situation. I am not a saint and I feel the attraction of women very intensively. On the other hand, I do not want to cheat my wife because it would cost me a lot psychologically to live on lies and having to hide something. In some occasions I meet nice girls and invite them to have a coffee with me. I am not a bad looking guy and have a good reputation in my work. Because I have a very high profile job, there is virtually no girl that would refuse an invitation from my part (although I am aware that this is more due to my position than to my physical appearance). But when I am taking this coffee with a girl I immediately feel stop by an internal mechanism of repression and I am unable to go any further than that. And at night, before falling asleep, I almost exclusively think on having sex with one girl or the other. For a long time I tried to explain my wife that I cannot live without sex, but she seemed unable to understand this. I event felt guilty for this in some occasions although I tried to convince myself that this a natural need. I must add that this is not the full story. We have very different personalities and interests. I think we still would have problems even with the sex issue solved. In a nutshell, I do not enjoy life with her. On the other hand the idea of separation or divorce scares me. And specially if I think of my daughter. I do not want to harm her and to make her a child of a split family. I am in an awful situation right now and I understand the feeling of "Alone Emotionally" getting into an airplane and thinking "ok, if I die I die". It is as if I knew that the only way out would be to divorce my wife and start from scratch, but I do not have the courage to take the decision. I just perpetuate the situation like that. Everyday I feel that I can resist just for one or two days maximum but I keep on going. The thing that terrifies me more is the long term, seeing myself in the same situation after 5 years or more and with the impression of having lost my life for nothing. Sad, very sad...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SG,
Great story. From one guy who likes back scratches to another, there are good wives out there. I admit I lucked out. Last night I got home from a business trip. The trip was long, so it had been about 2 weeks since we connected. She has this condition that causes serious vaginal irritation that flares up sometimes. Well last night it was flaring. So I was playing it lose until just after dinner she comes up behind me and starts some foreplay. And I smiled and said - so its going to be one of those kind of nights eh? And she said - you have been away 2 weeks - of course it is. And then she did the back scratch, back massage and then the oral delight. Purely love driven. The irriatation thing prevents lust. It just does. 

Being loved like that is special. 

I like to think I love HER like that most days. 




Scannerguard said:


> Wow. . .the initial poster had a great way of expressing himself and connecting with many guys of the forum.
> 
> Like him, I was the "Nice Guy" (everybody would say it about me. . .her parents, my parents, my co-workers. . .even if I am not about to sound it) and didn't get any affection for it.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> MM,
> Do you have the courage to say this to your wife:
> 
> It is obvious that you dislike sex and think it is unimportant to the marriage. So I am going to find a girlfriend and discreetly enjoy her company.
> ...


 I like it. But what happens if she doesn't do anything?

Was this woman abused as a child? Sometimes, that prohibits them doing anything no matter what they want.


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## mirmex (Jan 15, 2010)

I suppose I'm also a "nice guy", in fact I have been told so many many times by a lot of people (except by my wife...). I know it's not always good, but at almost 43 I guess it's too late to change personality. 
In my wife's case, I have the impression that she is of neutral gender, with almost no sexual desire. It has been like that from the beginning and my mistake was not to realize it before (or maybe with age my needs have changed). The problem now is that I have reached to a point where I no longer want to have sex with her, not even give her a kiss. She has tried recently and I refused (not that she insisted much, but anyhow). On the other hand, I do have sexual (and emotional, for that matters) desires I do not know how to satisfy. 
Scannerguard, I never thought of improving my situation concerning my child after a separation. Thanks for that. Although I am extremely worried of causing her emotional damage. I certainly love my child more than myself. I am not sure I'll break up my marriage if I didn't have a child, but the fact that I do gives me extra strength. 
Thank you for all your comments, they are much appreciated. I thought of initiating a new thread on life without sex, apart from my particular situation. I'm really interested in this issue. I don't think sexless life is the only problem in my relationship and my wife keeps up asking me if this is the case. I try to explain her that it is not, but even if all other things were fine I can simply not endure life like this. I tell her that sex for me is a "conditio sine qua non", but she is unable to understand this point....


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It is emotionally cruel to starve a partner for a long time of sex/love which is one and the same with a man. If he has to threaten a mistress or divorce to get an honest answer about sexual abuse - well that is a type of abuse itself. Abuse of the person you vowed to love and treat better then anyone else in the world. Also - the hot sex before marriage, not so hot after marriage, very cold after kids - is a standard pattern having nothing to do with abuse and everything to do with effort, commitment and yes true love. 

True love is not about lust - it is about giving to your partner. Could be your resources (money, time), or any of the other types of love, could be giving YOURSELF, your body - the ultimate gift to a man. 

Denying this to your husband does make him depressed and does slowly destroy his soul. And that is a sick, cruel, awful thing to do. 



turnera said:


> I like it. But what happens if she doesn't do anything?
> 
> Was this woman abused as a child? Sometimes, that prohibits them doing anything no matter what they want.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Huh? I just asked if she had been abused as a child, because this sometimes prevents that person from being able to participate as an adult, at least without heavy duty professional therapy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Her responsibility to get help for something that has such a HUGE impact on the marriage. 

What if I had a huge childhood event that left some mental scar. And say I kept losing jobs over that. And say I never told my wife about it and never got help over it. And she/wife is eventually is having a nervous breakdown over finances and wants to divorce me. Whose responsibility is that? Mine or hers? 

I am sympathetic to victims of abuse. But THEY have a responsibility to the person they vowed to love. 




turnera said:


> Huh? I just asked if she had been abused as a child, because this sometimes prevents that person from being able to participate as an adult, at least without heavy duty professional therapy.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> I know a guy who jolted his wife into a good rythm. He said "if you are not willing to aggressively work on the marriage - and that means changing your physical/sexual behavior - *then we are done*"


This part in bold is key... If you can't reach that point, you are doomed most likely. You've basically got to be prepared to walk away. To not be addicted to the hope of thongs getting better on their own. Such hope is futile.

However, reading on...



MEM11363 said:


> He insisted on a minimum amount of sex and big shocker she told him a bunch of stuff he was doing OUTSIDE the bedroom that turned her off. She disliked that right when she came in after work he was crowding her. With talk - with hugs etc. She needed a transition period - and then she was happy to approach him. And a few other things like that.


We see here the other side of the coin. Well some of it anyway 

If you can be both certain of yourself and sensitive to her, then it can work - maybe.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The thing about people who have been abused, is that they develop something called toxic shame. It literally controls their entire lives. They live a lie (in their minds), since they 'know' they are worthless, and they just pretend to deserve to be in the same room as everyone else. 

Just telling them they 'owe' it to their spouse to get help, while I understand your thinking, is a fairly unattainable goal. Most of them would die before admitting to anyone, even a therapist, their deep dark secrets (which they blame _themselves_ for).

If you do have a spouse with this issue, I suggest reading Healing the Shame That Binds You, to get a good insight into what your wife is really thinking. Maybe it would help you find a way to get through to her.


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## mirmex (Jan 15, 2010)

turnera said:


> Huh? I just asked if she had been abused as a child, because this sometimes prevents that person from being able to participate as an adult, at least without heavy duty professional therapy.


I think my wife was educated in a very traditional and strict manner. I don't think she has any trauma. Sex is just not part of her life. She cannot even understand my needs on this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How have you approached her about it?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MM,
Upbringing is not really relevant here. There were lots of differences between my upbringing and my wifes. There were many things which were critical to her that I never even thought about pre-marriage. Guess what, ALL of those things are now important to me because they are important to her. And vice versa. Though she would readily tell you my list is way way shorter:
- Sex has to be given a high priority 
- I need to be spoken to in a respectful manner - the same manner with which I speak to her
- We both have to stay reasonably fit, I need to stay over a minimum weight - she likes stocky - she needs to stay under a maximum weight
- short list of other stuff that is boring - but matters to me

So this whole idea of it is not important to me, because it is not important to me ends on the day you exchange rings. That is the day you merge EVERYTHING, including your priorities. 

With that said - I have become totally fluent during the last 20 years in what turns my wife on/off. Simple things like never ever eating garlic unless she is with me and wishes to eat the same dish. And more complicated things like how I handle the kids when they are misbehaving. And I have learned all this by watching, and by asking. 

The marriage vows are in sickness, for poorer and in bad times. They never said and never will say "and in total indifference to your spouse's needs and happiness"




mirmex said:


> I think my wife was educated in a very traditional and strict manner. I don't think she has any trauma. Sex is just not part of her life. She cannot even understand my needs on this.


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## mirmex (Jan 15, 2010)

turnera said:


> How have you approached her about it?


I am afraid the beggar way, when I tried to approach her. I do not try any longer for more or less half a year (last time I saw her nude was in March 2009...). 
Her approach was almost always, "not today", "now I am tired", "let's see tomorrow". She even used to refuse me kissing her on the grounds that "you are never satisfied with just a kiss, and afterwords you will want something else". Now that I do not longer care she says "how could I like to have sex with you if you are so indifferent and rough with me?". Well, I may be now, but not during the past 10 years (or maybe I was, but do you have to be perfect to get sex?).

About other people stating their hot experiences after being a long trip away home. In my case it was almost always a nightmare: I tended to forgot the situation and expected something special when going back home, only to find her in a defensive mood just in case I wanted to do something with her. 

Mem, your comments are very enlightening. You are perfectly right. Other comments on "the nice guy" are also very pertinent in my case. I started thinking that I am may be too weak for having renounced so easily to my minimum requirements. Too bad...


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## mirmex (Jan 15, 2010)

...and I am being also too weak for not taking the drastic decision but maybe only way out of moving on and divorce my wife...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

BEFORE you even MENTION divorce try this, amazingly powerful.

Best move I have seen guys make in this situation:
- They make a conscious decision to be more upbeat/fun to be around. This is a sincere thing - they are more solution focused and more optimistic. 
- They are friendly and polite to wife
- They STOP saying I LOVE YOU to her, they stop doing all the loving stuff, gifts - gifts on valentines day, taking her on dates, etc. If she says I love you - just smile and nod. They stop doing above and beyond acts of service - she gets in bed and wants a glass of water - just smile and say - sorry babe I have a few things I need to get done right now. 

This is not about refusing to talk. Not at all. When you eat together talk to her, listen to her, tell her funny events from your day. Be totally engaged - interesting and interested in her and her day. Just DON'T compliment her - that is a type of love. 

ALSO spend less time at home with her. Start going to the gym/or go more often. Do more things without her. 

She may get angry - if she does YOU must stay calm. She may attack you for being cold/mean. The best response is "what is it you want from me?" And the best answer when she says to go back to normal is to say "why"? And then listen. 

I think this is where the marriage lives or dies. If you ask her, "do you want to be married to me?" she will take that question very seriously after a week of being extremely deprioritized. If she says anything other than "YES" with enthusiasm, then just say "ok". Because at this point - if she is not totally committed you are wasting your time. If she says "not sure, no, etc" just say ok. And then go home and file. A MC cannot fix a lack of commitment. If she does say "YES", then you can ask her, "do you know what it will take for me to go back to the way I was"?

And if she plays dumb I would say - well let me give you a few days to think about it. But the hint is that it is the part of our marriage that I am very frustrated with. 

If she says she knows - but seems unhappy - demand clarity. Show some honesty and tell her - I KNOW you don't like sex with me, but you need to tell me WHY so I can fix it, or we cannot make this work. And if she really resists - you can always ask "would you prefer to be uncomfortably honest or single?"

And then do not change anything until she drags you into bed and starts to fix the broken part of your sexual relationship. Because to regain respect - you need to force her to make the first move here. 










mirmex said:


> ...and I am being also too weak for not taking the drastic decision but maybe only way out of moving on and divorce my wife...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

mirmex said:


> ...and I am being also too weak for not taking the drastic decision but maybe only way out of moving on and divorce my wife...


Your are like a man who has been in a deep slumber. You are only just now staring to rouse. When you finally wake up to what you have been a party to you will be quite shocked. 

You might find it helpful to read this: Sexless Marriage?

However, that article was written for men who's wives are not quite as manipulative as yours. So take it with a pinch of salt.


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> BEFORE you even MENTION divorce try this, amazingly powerful.
> 
> Best move I have seen guys make in this situation:
> - They make a conscious decision to be more upbeat/fun to be around. This is a sincere thing - they are more solution focused and more optimistic.
> ...




Here's an idea, try cutting the c*ap with all the "mind" games with not telling her you love her, doing loving things and not taking her out ect, ect and just cut to the chase of the question "do you want to be married to me?" and have a serious conversation rather than playing tactics?


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## lisakifttherapy (Jul 31, 2007)

Sexual intimacy in marriage can flow really for some couples but in my experience as a couples therapist, most people fall out of sync in some way, particularly after a number of years being together. In your case, your wife sounds like she has some family of origin issues and unhelpful lessons learned about relationships and what they look like - that are negatively impacting your situation. 

The bottom line is that it's a really important topic not to let to undiscussed. I recently read a really great and user-friendly workbook by a psychologist and relationship coach that I highly recommend to couples wanting to work on the passion and intimacy in their marriages. It's called, Sex, Passion and Intimacy: Keep the Fires of Passion Burning. I think there are so many couples that can benefit from a basic understanding of what blocks from from sexual intimacy, etc. 

If a workbook isn't your "thing," try the open and honest dialogue approach. You have a right to intimacy in your marriage - let her know how it feels not to be connected to her in this way (in a non-critical way).


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Star said:


> just cut to the chase of the question "do you want to be married to me?" and have a serious conversation rather than playing tactics?


He needs to build up to that point internally first. It's no use just saying the words, or being angry and saying the words. You have to be able to say the words and be ready for the possibility of a "NO" answer. And if you get a "NO" you have to be prepared to call it a day. 

Only at that point can such a strategy work. And if it does work, there will be a catch. She will hate herself for giving in, and will no doubt be looking to get even. It's a tough situation. Knowing what I know now, I would probably walk away, becuase if someone does not want to please you, it's hard to make them want to. It's a matter of how much they value you. As a wise guy once told me: "No one will value you more highly than you value yourself". Just being willing to walk away, makes you worth more - in your own eyes and the other person's. 

Why is gold worth more than silver? Because gold is more scarce. No other reason.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Star,
It is very rare for a woman to be able to say to her man: 

You are too loving, too nice. It is a total turn off. I need you to man up, stand up for yourself, and be tough when I am being a *****. 

Going from being TOO loving/all over her with love all the time to "do you want to be married" is a brutal shock to a persons system. A normal person would be like "WTF?" yesterday you told me you loved me all day and today you are asking "should we end it?"

The GAMES as you call them are simply being - more attractive and less available. And they are solely a reaction to a woman who has shut down emotionally/sexually. The GAMES are way better then saying - have sex with me regularly even though you hate it - even though you are not turned on by me. 

The GAMES create legitimate relationship fear. Like - oh yeah this guy I have been totally ignoring is now starting to ignore me. THAT behavior tends to produce a very positive desire in a woman. 

I have always made my wife priority 1 - but I have a built in edge to me that prevents folks from mistreating me. Most of these guys don't have the edge needed for conflict - and sometimes lack the verbal skills. The games require neither.



Star said:


> Here's an idea, try cutting the c*ap with all the "mind" games with not telling her you love her, doing loving things and not taking her out ect, ect and just cut to the chase of the question "do you want to be married to me?" and have a serious conversation rather than playing tactics?


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Star,
> It is very rare for a woman to be able to say to her man:
> 
> You are too loving, too nice. It is a total turn off. I need you to man up, stand up for yourself, and be tough when I am being a *****.
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I would probably walk away, becuase if someone does not want to please you, it's hard to make them want to.


Maybe, BUT, you CAN do a LOT to make them want to. How? By being everything that they want. By being such a perfect mate for them that all they can think about is getting home to you, because being home means feeling good. You just have to know WHAT makes them feel good. That requires spending less time in your brain, and more time in THEIR brain.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Star,
You clearly have a healthy power balance in your marriage. And you also are willing/able to say some things to a male - that many women would NOT say. Don't get me wrong, just about any woman will tell her guy to man up if he isn't having conflict with OTHER people and she thinks he should. But it is much more unusual to hear a woman say "Man up - be tougher/stronger/more assertive with ME"

As for the distance - these are men who are too nice, conflict avoidant, POOR at conflict. They do better by learning to give less when they don't like what they are getting. What you call talking and I call the direct confrontation method is a bust for them because they are so bad at it. 

By the way - ALL - of them have talked to their wives multiple times before they post here - with no result. Normal conversation is not working for them.


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Star,
> You clearly have a healthy power balance in your marriage. And you also are willing/able to say some things to a male - that many women would NOT say. Don't get me wrong, just about any woman will tell her guy to man up if he isn't having conflict with OTHER people and she thinks he should. But it is much more unusual to hear a woman say "Man up - be tougher/stronger/more assertive with ME"
> 
> As for the distance - these are men who are too nice, conflict avoidant, POOR at conflict. They do better by learning to give less when they don't like what they are getting. What you call talking and I call the direct confrontation method is a bust for them because they are so bad at it.
> ...


I think the point I am trying to make and my main concern is, that by advising someone to, be less interested in their partner, go out more without them, stop buying gifts ect, ect IS a dangerous game, The woman can perseve this as maybe something other than what you indend it too and therefore create an even bigger problem, thats's all and that's why I think talking is better than games/tactics, but that's just my personal opinion and preference. 

I don't think the treat them mean, keep them keen thing works all the time (it certainly doesn't work with me it just pushes me further away and I disconnect even more) and potentially you could have a ticking bomb in your hands. But I do appreciate some of the points you make.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Sexual attraction has very VERY little to do with talking or mere words.

Sexual attraction is best understood as BEHAVIOR, and is indeed communication through behavior that is ancient, much older than words or language. 

That is why talking about such things is rarely working, unless the relationship is already on solid ground in these areas to begin with.

So these things to do, for example, a man to look desirable to a woman, it does very little for him to use words to say "desire me", but instead to show in action that he is desirable himself, and the woman is to see in these actions that she will be attracted to a man that behaves desirably.

And yes, many times this is to talk less, and carry himself more aloof, if there is his woman seeming to ignore him and not be interested in him.


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

BBW, you have a point, but what I don't agree to is the mind games that have been suggested earlier on in the thread.

It's a dangerous game to play sometimes.


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

Pretty interesting topic. I have been influenced by your individual thoughts in other posts and really appreciate the varying points of view. Thats is in fact the beauty and purpose of a forum in the first place.

Every man/woman is uniqe in certain ways. I think we could agree on that. Each couple has a make up as well. (what works, how much sex, arguing, etc).

I woud like to chime in here and say that in the end my core belief is that just as a wife witholding sex as a way to get one to "cut the grass" or correct behavior is certainly a game (for lack of a better word) which surely can precipitate a downward spiral of withdraw.. She starts it, then you escalate then she digs in further, then you... Next thing you know one of the two will say enough, you suck and im out.

Im a HUGE fan of working tirelessly to get to the core/truth and think that this should always be the focus.
So if you have *two willing patients*, then everything is possible.
If someone is "holding back" then I really believe that what's possible is VERY limited. Could VERY well be in the end that two people would be better moving on separately... Getting to the truth will feel best either way and with less conflict.

Im NOT a fan of conflict or confrontation. Skill building in open communication is the key ingredient. We are'nt taught this by anyone in life... we all fumble our way through, some better than others.

my two cents.....well maybe I spent a little more.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, I was just going to say that communication is the number one solution. For BOTH to be heard, acknowledged, and cared about.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am a calm and clear communicator. After communication fails - what then?
1. Yelling and screaming - not my style - bad example for kids
2. Moving out or filing - way too heavy handed
3. Steadily deprioritizing your spouse - this one is perfect - they understand exactly what this means - you can do it as gradually or rapidly as you like. And they get to decide just how far you want this to go. 

Number 3 is such a good option for a good spouse. Because their partner is used to lots of nice emotional and physical support. Start subtracting that and THEIR quality of life rapidly changes. Eventually it begins to create relationship uncertainty. And sometimes that is what it takes. 

It is not a game, it is a very rational response when your needs aren't being met.






63Vino said:


> Pretty interesting topic. I have been influenced by your individual thoughts in other posts and really appreciate the varying points of view. Thats is in fact the beauty and purpose of a forum in the first place.
> 
> Every man/woman is uniqe in certain ways. I think we could agree on that. Each couple has a make up as well. (what works, how much sex, arguing, etc).
> 
> ...


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

Fair enough mem... "Game" is the word i saw accepted. Didnt really like it either.

I guess thats simply two different opinions. I see the logic in your's no doubt. We've crossed paths on this before. 
My side is simply that i "think' this is an indirect way to get there. 
I'd still be afraid of that spiral thingy.

Like I said its very possible for this to be effective depending on the people. 

I personally would prefer more direct.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Deprioritizing...pretty much like setting your boundaries and giving consequences for them being overrun.

Boundaries are good because they are not telling your _spouse_ what to do - just what YOU will do if YOU don't get what you need. (there's that communication) After that, it's their choice on whether to acknowledge or accept your boundaries. Either way, you stay protected. Of course, your boundaries need to be fair and logical - and loving.


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

What happens when number 3 (deprioritizing your spouse ) back fires on you, the wife doesn't take the bait and things get worse because of this?


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

You know I'm really not sure about this discussion.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding.

But if you say that direct communication and expression of what is missing or what you want was not enough to awake the sleeping or misbehaving spouse, is that not a sign that they are'nt really interested in making it work?

And if that even might be true, then retracting "other" things or deprioritizing may surely make that spouse (whom you really dont know what their problem is) feel less loved or even attacked. 

I guess maybe when you get to the point, realizing that they don't care all that much about your stated problem, maybe an evaluation of how much "fruit" further or more drastic efforts are gong to bear is in order?

Just typing out loud here.

thoughts?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sorry - now I get it. I did a bad job of communicating something that is core to this style of interaction. I DON'T BLUFF. This is why I don't play poker - well I do for fun - for penny stakes - but never for real money. I am not good at bluffing. Never have been. My "style" which works for me - is that when I do something I mean it. So the last time I had to do this deprioritization thing in my marriage - the term "spiraling out of control" had no meaning. I was willing to have the marriage end over the issue if she was determined not to address it. 

It was about 5 years ago. I felt very poorly treated. I had talked and talked and talked. No effect. So when I reduced her priority I accepted that she might choose to escalate. And I was at peace with that. I didn't make my choice of how to act when I was angry. In fact I was totally calm. Very determined though. If she had escalated at that point I would have moved out. And if after 90 days she still felt she was in the right - I would have filed. Hey this was after a YEAR of trying to talk this to resolution. 

It didn't come to that. After a few months of being a lessor priority she did what I had been asking. And FYI, outside the bedroom I am definitely NOT the alpha in this marriage. But I am alpha enough to ensure my boundaries are respected. 










Star said:


> What happens when number 3 (deprioritizing your spouse ) back fires on you, the wife doesn't take the bait and things get worse because of this?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hell yes it made her feel less loved. Not attacked though. And I DID love her less at that point. This wasn't an act. My behavior very accurately communicated in a 100 percent unambiguous way that I was feeling steadily less loving towards her. 

I prefaced this whole thing with - I was confident that my behavior up until then had been very loving, kind and supportive and that HER behavior was NOT in response to anything I was doing wrong/not doing right in the marriage. HER behavior was - IMO - simply selfish and lazy - AND it seemed to be getting worse.


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Sorry - now I get it. I did a bad job of communicating something that is core to this style of interaction. I DON'T BLUFF. This is why I don't play poker - well I do for fun - for penny stakes - but never for real money. I am not good at bluffing. Never have been. My "style" which works for me - is that when I do something I mean it. So the last time I had to do this deprioritization thing in my marriage - the term "spiraling out of control" had no meaning. I was willing to have the marriage end over the issue if she was determined not to address it.
> 
> It was about 5 years ago. I felt very poorly treated. I had talked and talked and talked. No effect. So when I reduced her priority I accepted that she might choose to escalate. And I was at peace with that. I didn't make my choice of how to act when I was angry. In fact I was totally calm. Very determined though. If she had escalated at that point I would have moved out. And if after 90 days she still felt she was in the right - I would have filed. Hey this was after a YEAR of trying to talk this to resolution.
> 
> It didn't come to that. After a few months of being a lessor priority she did what I had been asking. And FYI, outside the bedroom I am definitely NOT the alpha in this marriage. But I am alpha enough to ensure my boundaries are respected.



K I see it different, thanks for the clarification. 
It is a major point to say that you had exhausted all other attempts at direct communications, had resigned yourself to leaving AND that basically what this is, is a "leaving" the spouse in an incremental fashion and IF they happen to wak up in this process your willing to reverse it.


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## Longtime Husband (Dec 14, 2009)

Star said:


> What happens when number 3 (deprioritizing your spouse ) back fires on you, the wife doesn't take the bait and things get worse because of this?


I have watched this discussion with much interest. My initial reaction/answer to this question is that you certainly have to be prepared for such an eventuality.

I think that, as someone else has already pointed out, all people and relationships are different. But what is not different is the fact that, in order to "negotiate", one must do so from a position of power. This power might have to be created. I think that it's often necessary to be willing to "walk away" in order to gain the power (and by "gaining power", i'm referring to just getting the relationship on equal footing). 

For twenty years, I tried all of the wrong ways of dealing with my frustrations the "right way". I tried being the "better husband" and I tried talking with my wife about the problem. Talking with her resulted in her responding that my need for more sex was immature, sophomoric & petty...100% of the time.

It wasn't until I laid it on the line & informed her that this situation would have to change or I would make no guarantees that I would be with her into old age....in fact, I pretty much told her that I would be GONE eventually. Well, she did not take well to this at all. Her personality is to dig in her heels & stand her ground which is exactly what she did (at first). For two days I slept in the spare bedroom....I was devastated (as was she, but the difference is that I made damn sure that she didn't see my hurt) & I assumed that she would very likely tank the marriage before she'd give in. My point was was made after 2 days....she has been a firecracker ever since. This was 2 months ago & I fully expect that we might need to revisit this "conversation" again at some point in the future if she slides back into her asexual comfort zone. 

I truly believe that this worked for me for 3 key reasons: 1.) this was the first time I ever threatened to leave her in 20+ years of marriage. 2) I have always paid her the utmost respect & always will. And 3.) This was most certainly a "hill that I was willing to die upon"....and she knew it!

So whatever you do, be it "mind games" or having a discussion, you'd better be willing to accept any & all possible eventualities, even the REALLY bad ones....but only if you really want things to change.

Ya gotta do what you gotta do!!


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

All good.. jsut need to be clear with all that this is a last ditch type of thing and IF your treating it as a "negotiation", you must be VERY prepared to walk away from the "table" if you dont get what you want.

Its CERTAINLY NOT something you go to (tactic) anywhere near the first signs of trouble... this is near the very end right?


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## Longtime Husband (Dec 14, 2009)

63Vino said:


> All good.. jsut need to be clear with all that this is a last ditch type of thing and IF your treating it as a "negotiation", you must be VERY prepared to walk away from the "table" if you dont get what you want.
> 
> Its CERTAINLY NOT something you go to (tactic) anywhere near the first signs of trouble... this is near the very end right?


Semantics perhaps, but no, not really. It was simply that on this issue (which again had been an issue for over 20 years) was something that I was no longer willing to budge on. 

I think, if I had made it clear early on that I expect to be given a certain amount of sex (and that I will hold myself to the same standard of meeting HER needs), "OR ELSE"....I would have been much less frustrated for 2 decades. But as it was, I tried to do things the "right way". 

I'm a slow learner, I guess. But I get it eventually.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LH,
Good for you. Really. You explained this perfectly. I am sad though when I read stories like yours. You would have gotten the same reaction a long time ago - saving you many years of feeling poorly treated in relation to how you were treating her. 

Yes - this behavior represents incrementally leaving the marriage. And if you are a good spouse - your partner gets very anxious when they realize you MEAN it. Notice your wife ignored your "talk" for 20 years, but IMMEDIATELY responded to your ACTION. I truly believe women are wired that way. They are excellent communicators. So when we complain they hear "oh - he is unhappy". Which sadly sometimes they are ok with. But if they see/hear/believe "oh he is actually leaving me" very different reaction.




Longtime Husband said:


> I have watched this discussion with much interest. My initial reaction/answer to this question is that you certainly have to be prepared for such an eventuality.
> 
> I think that, as someone else has already pointed out, all people and relationships are different. But what is not different is the fact that, in order to "negotiate", one must do so from a position of power. This power might have to be created. I think that it's often necessary to be willing to "walk away" in order to gain the power (and by "gaining power", i'm referring to just getting the relationship on equal footing).
> 
> ...


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## Longtime Husband (Dec 14, 2009)

let me put this another way:

I don't know about the mind game & all but you simply SET STANDARDS in your relationship (it's crucial that these standards are a two-way street). You REMAIN CLEAR about these standards. And you STAND YOUR GROUND, regardless of the consequences. This is true of all relationships, organizations and/or institutions.

Then you just let the chips fall where they may.....after all, who could NOT respect this? (hint: anyone who doesn't respect this is not worth keeping around anyway)


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

"Yes - this behavior represents incrementally leaving the marriage. And if you are a good spouse - your partner gets very anxious when they realize you MEAN it. Notice your wife ignored your "talk" for 20 years, but IMMEDIATELY responded to your ACTION. I truly believe women are wired that way. They are excellent communicators. So when we complain they hear "oh - he is unhappy". Which sadly sometimes they are ok with. But if they see/hear/believe "oh he is actually leaving me" very different reaction."

Ok...following all other methods (not 20 years) you incrementally leave the marriage in a last effort to get them to understand what they failed to get through talk, with the understanding that they may pull away further and you leave altogether.

Again, worried about "where" this is applied but I get it.

thanks gents for clarifying.
Every situation is different.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

This continues to be an interesting thread. I think many of the "tricks" being advocated on this thread can work, but at a price: The other person knows they have been played. They might even eventually thank you for helping them get past certain mental blocks at a later date, but... unless you are blessed with a giving person as a spouse, the magic will wear off. 

You can use tried and tested techniques to shift the balance a bit, but you can't change someone very much for very long. For me, the main lesson in this thread is that the OP has low self esteem, and like a mirror, his choice of wife is tirelessly reflecting that to him. If and when his self esteem picks up, he will either find his wife more loving, or -more likely- he will drop her like a hot potato.

It's Prometheus and the rock all over again:

Zeus then punished him for his crime by having him bound to a rock while a great eagle ate his liver every day only to have it grow back to be eaten again the next day.

Unlike Prometheus, we do have the power to walk away.... maybe.


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## garyr (Dec 1, 2011)

mirmex said:


> when I read this thread I felt as if I had written it myself. In fact, it made me participate in a forum for the first time in my cybernetic life. What a (poor) consolation to see that we are a unique species that shares similar feelings and other people around the globe is going through the same situation as I do...


I was thinking the exact same thing i googled this topic because my wife is the exact same way that alone's is. last night was our 20th anniversary at an upscale restaurant and she stayed on her cellphone texting. pissed me off. I joined also because of this and want to read more. might print out some of these post so she can read the herself.


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## Hindsight2020 (Jun 12, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

What's with all of the return from the dead threads?


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## Hindsight2020 (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm 43 with 3 kids and a very attractive wife who seems repulsed by my affection, so this thread is what I came up with using google. My wife is constantly seeking male attention, texting other guys, posting pics of herself, and going out to clubs dressed like a go go dancer without me. I've tried being more aggressive, more alpha, lost weight, talking, talking, seducing, acting aloof, taking vitamins and protein suppliments, on and on and on. It's been 3 months or so and I'm pretty sure she's replaced me emotionally with someone else if not physically as well. Ive asked her on numerous occasions if she wants to even try working on the marriage and she gives me the "I can't say right now" responses and gets defensive. She says she loves me, but I'm a wreck, emotionally and spiritually starved to such a state of depression and feelings of worthlessness I think about dying. The only reason I havent left are the kids. I'm so ravenous and desperate my heart literally breaks anew each day. There's always something new and devastating. I've cleaned and chored and done dentists and doctors and daycare and burned vacation and tried anti depressants which I hated, and stopped immediately. I guess I just have no choice but to leave. I'm laying in our bed right now after another rejection. I'm so exhausted. She cheated on me 2 years ago and I forgave her. Then after a month more of no sex while she got over him I finally made a move. She had taken Xanax and even though we were making out which led to sex, I was clearly the dominant one. She never said no or to stop but the next day after kissing me off to work, rare, later accused me of raping her. It was horrifying. Over the next year though, yes we stayed together, things seemed to be getting better. Then one day she went cold again and the constant texting others at all hours and the secrets and defensiveness started again. She blames it all on the "rape" event that she can't get over it, meanwhile flirty with others, non affectionate to me. No husband in the world should put up with this and i feel like such a complete loser. It's inhumane. Putting away her lace panties while folding laundry, that she wore for someone else no doubt. I have zero trust, and she sleeps with her phone clutched in her hands or under her pillow. The phone account is locked with a password. If I demand change she says I'm a bad person for demanding so much. She's surrounded with sycophantic men and because she's wild and fun her youth girls whom she teaches all keep her ego stoked. I'm a nice guy, honest, a good provider, good looking, but clearly unable to fulfil her. I've lost my mind I think. I used to be strong and confident but after marriage I made the mistake of becoming over domesticated and passive and let the balance sway. She improved her appearance and became the alpha and became disgusted in me. I guess I'm a fool for even trying to win her back. I feel so stuck financially, depressed, desperate, and alone. I know I've gone way beyond the scope of the thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hldnhope (Apr 10, 2012)

BigBadWolf said:


> This thread is very depressing.
> 
> All good men reading this, if a man is not getting sex, or feeling as if his woman is finding him sexually attractive, this is absolutely a problem and should not be endured, it is emotional abuse plain and simple.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Hindsight2020 said:


> I've tried being more aggressive, more alpha,


You say you've "tried" being more alpha but everything in this post screams I'm a sissy who lets her run all over me. If you let her get away with all the crap in this post, you're not being alpha.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

Hindsight2020 said:


> I'm 43 with 3 kids and a very attractive wife who seems repulsed by my affection, so this thread is what I came up with using google. My wife is constantly seeking male attention, texting other guys, posting pics of herself, and going out to clubs dressed like a go go dancer without me. I've tried being more aggressive, more alpha, lost weight, talking, talking, seducing, acting aloof, taking vitamins and protein suppliments, on and on and on. It's been 3 months or so and I'm pretty sure she's replaced me emotionally with someone else if not physically as well. Ive asked her on numerous occasions if she wants to even try working on the marriage and she gives me the "I can't say right now" responses and gets defensive. She says she loves me, but I'm a wreck, emotionally and spiritually starved to such a state of depression and feelings of worthlessness I think about dying. The only reason I havent left are the kids. I'm so ravenous and desperate my heart literally breaks anew each day. There's always something new and devastating. I've cleaned and chored and done dentists and doctors and daycare and burned vacation and tried anti depressants which I hated, and stopped immediately. I guess I just have no choice but to leave. I'm laying in our bed right now after another rejection. I'm so exhausted. She cheated on me 2 years ago and I forgave her. Then after a month more of no sex while she got over him I finally made a move. She had taken Xanax and even though we were making out which led to sex, I was clearly the dominant one. She never said no or to stop but the next day after kissing me off to work, rare, later accused me of raping her. It was horrifying. Over the next year though, yes we stayed together, things seemed to be getting better. Then one day she went cold again and the constant texting others at all hours and the secrets and defensiveness started again. She blames it all on the "rape" event that she can't get over it, meanwhile flirty with others, non affectionate to me. No husband in the world should put up with this and i feel like such a complete loser. It's inhumane. Putting away her lace panties while folding laundry, that she wore for someone else no doubt. I have zero trust, and she sleeps with her phone clutched in her hands or under her pillow. The phone account is locked with a password. If I demand change she says I'm a bad person for demanding so much. She's surrounded with sycophantic men and because she's wild and fun her youth girls whom she teaches all keep her ego stoked. I'm a nice guy, honest, a good provider, good looking, but clearly unable to fulfil her. I've lost my mind I think. I used to be strong and confident but after marriage I made the mistake of becoming over domesticated and passive and let the balance sway. She improved her appearance and became the alpha and became disgusted in me. I guess I'm a fool for even trying to win her back. I feel so stuck financially, depressed, desperate, and alone. I know I've gone way beyond the scope of the thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If there ever were a better case for divorcing, yours is it, friend.

Some of these posts could almost be word for word for what I would write if I were writing them. My wife left the bed early am last night when I tried to CUDDLE.

My wife thinks I am responsible for all the world's problems.

My spirits annd self esteem are excellent, however, as I know it is her, not me.

Im just going through the motions waiting now. I am fairly sure she is checked out completely too. She definitely does not appreciate what she has in me. Her loss will be some other lucky lady of my choosing's gain when I am ready.

Talking and pulling away have done me no good, so I am waiting 3 more years before I pull the pin, assuming no other bad behavior by my wife. Financial reasons, and concern for my youngest are the only reason I am waiting. 

My will/trust are being revised to give everything I possibly can to the kids vs. the wife if I were to kick off between now and then.. If she is going to be a platonic roomate, I am only going to give her what I would give a platonic roomate- bupkis, to the extent the law allows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hindsight2020 (Jun 12, 2012)

Drover said:


> You say you've "tried" being more alpha but everything in this post screams I'm a sissy who lets her run all over me. If you let her get away with all the crap in this post, you're not being alpha.


I agree. I've read "The Married Man's Sex Life Primer" and it's probably done as much harm as good, not because the guiding concept and information is invalid, but because executing has been a disaster. I sent her a sexy text one day for example and it mostly just confused the crap out of her and reinforced her aversion. When one is acting from a position of weakness what starts out in the mind as one thing can easily come out as another. As another example, last night I told her she was sexually depriving me and instead of "it's not okay and I won't stand for it" it came out as "surely you can understand." There's a BIG difference there. Another example, this morning I tried to bring up the phone account being pass-worded being "completely outside the boundaries" it came out as "that's just not okay and pisses me off." So yes, I am FAR from there.

A concept that bears discussion is that failed attempts to regain one's mojo can be very destructive and weakening to one's credibility. In one's attempts avoid sudden shifts from every day context, rather find ways to integrate things naturally. It's been very easy to read about some technique or line or idea and want to just immediately jam it into whatever the current context is, whether it fits or not. It can paint you as quite the nutjob. One should probably work whatever concept over mentally until fluent enough with it that you can apply it on the fly, in a more natural context. 

Also when one steps out of context by essentially pulling a 180, there's a natural instinct to duck back into what's safe. If you don't follow though these little flip flops can be costly. Each flip flop has an undermining effect on one's credibility and future success. I'm a text book example of how to fail in this regard. 

One can read about and think about "Manning up" until the cows come home, but what I had missed in the subtext was this. It's way more about having the courage of conviction than it is the actual tactics. Basically, if they smell fear you're just digging a deeper hole. I know it "shouldn't" be this way. We should be allowed license for a lifetime of feminist propaganda about being sensitive, etc. It's not easy to step outside of a lifetime of ingrained patterns, and it can so easily come off wrong if you're just trying to parrot something you've read that's bolstered your confidence. So my advice is, rather than making lots of little runs at being less "nice" and more alpha, decisive, bold, etc one should first step back and really immerse themselves in the idea that this isn't just some gimmick, but rather a paradigm shift. I think it's also important to mold the concepts to who you already are -rather than just trying to mimick someone you aren't. So, if you're a computer geek, rather than going for the Marlboro Man persona (which will only confuse and bewilder everyone unless you're a fantastic actor) first isolate, distill and transpose the Marlboro Man's traits to fit your existing repertoire.

I'm obviously not an expert, but I can share my failures and the lessons I'm learning.


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## sounhappy (Jul 15, 2012)

I know this is old but I just came across this post. In response to BigBadWolf's post on 1/26/10 I would agree with most of what he says. However, my problem, which is sadly the same as so many others on this thread, is that I'm not talking about the withholding of sex but intimacy and affection. Although my wife will have sex, beyond the kissing during the act there is nothing else. I've made it clear what I desire, I'm fit, clean, healthy, and everything else you stated but she simply is unable/unwilling to be affectionate. She even stated last week that she doesn't like being touched!!! You totally correct however, when you say this is a sad thread. I really though I was alone. I don't know which is sadder; if I were alone or that so many men find themselves in this same situation.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Your wife must be related to mine. I am 40-ish, married 14 years, father of 4, and my wife is not passionate at all. What's worse is when I tried to bring a little more passion, kissing, etc., she rejected my advances, saying she's never really been a kisser. In the bedroom it's straight to the point, not much foreplay, if any at all. Oral...not really. Sometimes, if I beg, I can go down on her. I'm in the same boat. My situation is getting better through counselling. I hope it continues to improve because I'm quite certain I can't handle another 30 years of the same.

Good luck to the both of us.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Longtime Husband said:


> I have watched this discussion with much interest. My initial reaction/answer to this question is that you certainly have to be prepared for such an eventuality.
> 
> I think that, as someone else has already pointed out, all people and relationships are different. But what is not different is the fact that, in order to "negotiate", one must do so from a position of power. This power might have to be created. I think that it's often necessary to be willing to "walk away" in order to gain the power (and by "gaining power", i'm referring to just getting the relationship on equal footing).
> 
> ...


I agree with the position of power. About 10 years ago, our sex life went from 3-4 times per week to 1 weekly or bi-weekly. I threatened to leave if the situation didn't improve. We increase to 2 times per week where we have been ever since. It was only recently where I tried to increase the kissing, cuddling, holding each other and increasing the foreplay. It was terrifying to have her push back and expect it to be okay with me. I had to demand counselling, or else...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

life, have you tried making your marriage more palatable? Women have to be in 'romance' mode to want more SF, usually. If you're in a rut, it ain't gonna happen.


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