# passive agressive people



## preso (May 1, 2009)

Have you ever met anyone who is passive aggressive?

To me, they are the most difficult and annoying personality of any of them. I would rather have someone blunt and straightforward around me than passive aggressive.

I knew and worked with/ lived near someone passive aggressive for many years and because of this had to have them in my life a little.
Oh the annoying things they do !!!!

Rather than say something they try to drop hints or plants seeds and not say what they mean and mean what they say !!!
Then later they will get all critical about whatever it was they had no real opinion on in the first place !!!
They are sneaky people who have hidden agendas... super crazy stuff that makes no sense !!!

They tend to be very jealous people too....
which is something I have a hard time with since I don;t have this trait... I can't really understand it ( jealousy).

Do you know or live with or are related to a passive aggressive person?
How do you deal with them?

As for that person I knew who was like that, after I retired...
I was able to limit contact with them...
more and more limited each month until I finally got them out of my life.
Don't miss them at all !

I sometimes think how HORRIBLE it would be to be married to someone like that !
whew !


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## Ingrid (Aug 12, 2009)

I think my husband is passive-aggressive.

He doesn't ask for what he really wants or needs, until he gets really stressed about it, and then he might have an angry outburst.

Or, he doesn't ask for what he wants or needs, and simmers with hidden resentment, which often leaks out with angry outbursts.

I don't think he's really jealous though.

How do I deal with it? Well, we are having issues... so... not always well.


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## preso (May 1, 2009)

They are very difficult people to deal with. I worked directly with a PA person and it was draining !!!!!!!!!!

If that person who is PA, is someone your married to... you would maybe do things very differently 
than if it was a co-worker or neighbor...
as I stay the hell away from them. I find them the most annoying people in the world and in direct opposition of being open and honest and direct...

If your spouse is PA... 
I feel for you. I don't think I could handle it !!!


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

One of my good friends says that my estranged husband has this attribute also. I haven't really gotten into analyzing that one. His Peter Pan Syndrome, which is part of the bigger problem--the narcissism--keep me plenty occupied. And now we are dealing with a very nasty OCD. However, I do see glimpses of the passive aggressive behavior; and he is oh so sneaky and underhanded!


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

It destroys marriages.. My wife is passive-aggressive. As she puts it I try not to hurt you so I hold it in.. Yet if she holds it in and doesn't let it go it does more damage or doesn't let me know. See my post  I am a straight forward type of guy.. My blunt attitude isn't the best either..


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## preso (May 1, 2009)

My intent to post this thread and start it was to make people aware of the personality and how it operates. 
Glad to know so many of you are aware of this type and the damamge they can do to others.


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## nightshade (Mar 4, 2009)

Sadly, my husband is passive aggressive. Not terrible, but it does cause problems. 

If something is wrong, he won't really come out and say it, if I ask him what it is outright, he'll either say it's nothing, or admit there is something but won't say what it is, and then just pout and sulk.

He displays a lot of the traits of being passive aggressive, even if in minor form. 

He is a master of manipulating a situation to set himself to play the victim. I'll bring up how I think something he said to me was mean or something and next thing I know he'll be yelling at me about how I only care about myself. 

Even the smallest things he will set up so a) he gets what he want b) he doesn't actually have to tell me what he wants c) he could possibly start an argument (designed to create distance so he can continue to do what he wants) 

For example, a recent situation, we were going to watch some TV together and I was waiting for him to finish up on the computer, he turns to me, hands me the computer saying "thought you might like this". So I thought, that was nice, I waited for him so he'll wait for me as I check my mail quickly and then we'll do something together. While I was doing that, he turns on something I really really do not want to watch, never have never will (not news to him) and when I say, "I thought we were going to watch something together" he says "Well, you were on the computer".

I just have to laugh, that he goes to such lengths for something so silly. And he doesn't even know he's doing it. Just saying "Hey, I think I'm going to watch suchandsuch" doesn't actually occur to him. 

I've started to calling it out as I see it. He is not a malicious person, so when what I say sinks in eventually he'll stop and be direct.


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## Wornthin (Jun 23, 2009)

I am tormented by the Passive Aggressive personality type – due to, unfortunately, being an open and communicative type. I feel, what I considered to be a commendable and (I thought) empowering mindset, has in fact turned out to be my greatest Achilles heel -when successfully lassoed by a manipulative and savvy PA.

Let me just state from the outset that I consider the “Passive Aggressive” mindset a regularly mislabeled accusation, and I do not always agree as to who is (and isn’t) of that disposition. I feel that a lot of people misjudge those that are notoriously poor communicators as PA – which, in my opinion, is not a correct assessment. Bad communicators are just bad communicators. For want of better description I believe there is an element of manipulation to the PA type.
I have come across an excellent summary of the characteristics and suggested causes of PA on the ‘Wikipedia’ web page. I suggest a read for all who feel thus affected by the proximity of a PA.
(you might also enjoy a read of “hypomania/bipolar hypomania” on Wikipedia – which I feel is the type of personality type PA tend to diffuse towards to ‘exploit’….as these people are energetic/idea offering/come back for more/negotiating/open/expressive sorts that the true PA tends to sit back and work off of.

So if you are pulling your hair out in painful frustration at having all of your ideas/expression/communication/compromising personality being silently scuttled when it doesn’t suit your partner…but reinforced subtly when it suits your partner – then maybe you are an emotional artsy communicating hypomania sort that has been successfully bridled by a PA. -as I feel I have been. I am still wrestling with this badly. I will simply offer my experience of such a things in the hope that you can learn from my successes (but mainly failures). If you don’t agree with me…please don’t point out that I have a personality disorder – I already know that – just go away and leave me alone. I will welcome differing opinions (of course) - but would prefer to keep my discourses insult free – thanks.

I feel that a true PA has this behavior so entrenched in their mindset that it is right down deep in that reptilian core of the brain (well not quite literally – just being a bit melodramatic). On Wiki a big contributor to the mentality of PA is speculated to be overly controlling parents – which during the critical stages of emotional development 12-18 – leads to alternative conflict resolution behavior to confrontational situations. But as we are only now learning– the adolescent mind is like setting concrete. Malleable through these stages, but one set, almost impossible to mold retrospectively. This is why drugs/alcohol/violence/prostitution / work ethic/ conflict resolution/ emotional security/ friendship….just about everything going on in their lives at that time…has such an impact on the resulting adult mind by about 20-22. Look at people’s personalities and priorities as an adult (their ability to love/trust/commit/give/be kind/etc etc) and you can see an impression of their adolescent years. PA are people who cannot openly deal with you in good will to obtain what they want – and inevitably come off as sneaky and manipulative.

My two mistakes.

1) Giving up and trying to become PA (tit for tat in my frustration). Just about sent myself bananas with that one. Not recommended. You are better off trying to beat Michael Jordan at his game. It is not my way – I cannot just ignore a problem. But they can. They can sit there forever (the waters of the Atlantic lapping at the feet of their deck chair) and not acknowledge or help or even offer the smallest concession towards solving a problem. Usually it is because there is nothing in it for them.
Q: Has anyone ever noticed that all PAs seem to somehow get themselves into a position where the status quo suits them? Inaction is always playing into their hands. I have found that if you are in a relationship with a PA – you probably did all the heavy lifting in your (hypomania) excitement of new love by approaching them/wooing them/sticking your neck out and risking embarrassment while they sat back coolly/ going to all the effort to fit in with their family/ giving up your job to move to their city/ etc etc etc. It goes on and on and on. Hopeless romantic hypomanic types are in too deep with a PA before they know it. Then when you have overly stretched yourself in your plethora of concessions to make the relationship work – and ask for some things back to give yourself a rest/boost/leg up/advancement - they just ignore/avoid/dodge/pretend not to understand the question (god I hate this last one!) and negate all attempts to address a need for change. Why? Because they already have what they want. Why alter that? (even if your partner is unhappy. What is now in it for them?)
I have found promises to change insincere. Lip service to paper over the cracks to buy some peace until the next time. Is this deliberate? I don’t know – is Homer Simpson sincere every time he promises to change and improve? He is probably not capable of understanding what is needed in himself to change – so how can he be accused of lying? Same as PA. I have gone round and round in my mind countless times trying to understand if she is deliberately manipulating me or hopelessly self involved and selfish.

2) Second biggest mistake was believing my wife. What is most heartbreaking is having something you believe in turn out to be a lie. That is what hurts most about infidelity – that the marriage vows were just a lie. Or if someone say “I married you for the money” – when you believe they truly loved you. Or “I hate your family” – when you really thought everyone got on handsomely. Or even if someone throws a jumper back at you and says “I always hated the colour”. (none of these have happened to me I might add, but they illustrate my point). Being told that your partner is going to try and be more communicative/consultative/more motivated to put an effort in/to be more sensitive to your needs rather than just ploughing on with their passions – and they don’t – well it is crushing. Particularly when you need this effort from them so much to keep trying to make the relationship work for you - so you believe it with all your heart – and then they don’t even seem to try and deliver on the promise. Not even try and fail! – but an absence of effort! It is being let down almost willingly and knowingly by them – being deceived for an entire second round (having assumed this righteous behavior would be expected from the outset in any relationship – let alone marriage) – a PA knows they are not doing what they should have done first time round and now have subsequently promised to be vigilant about it. They cannot possibly not recognise that they are doing it all again – and yet they continue not to try.
Homer (J)….or Machiavelli? I cannot honestly tell you.
But it is heartbreaking beyond comparison – the be (knowingly?) lied to like this.

OK everyone knows the problems. If you are still with me here then I guess we are in the same boat (with the waters of the Atlantic lapping at our feet)
So my answer?
What I consider my only success in my relationship.
Just give up.
Sounds like a negative response, but stay with me. Not in a PA style. Give up on hoping for them to change; to grow; to develop; to give of themselves to another. Free yourself of the burden of trying to carry another through into the world of mutual trust/sharing of views/a marriage of minds/ sharing of responsibility. That adolescent mind of theirs set years ago under the watchful (neglectful?) eyes of their parents and you are never going to be able to change them. (Now there is an old cliché – but a true one.) You cannot get them to change. Giving up is a form of acceptance, and I suppose, forgiveness- and in this you might be able to release yourself from that heartbreaking and soul destroying expectation of a closer more involved and mutual life with them.

I can only suggest trying (as I have) to keep yourself from being out over a barrel. Make sure you don’t allow the important things to you to go unattended – so that you suffer disappointment and then anger at your spouse. Act on the important things in your life autonomously (arrange plans that do not involve their input/action to come to fruition so you can do things autonomously). But fully communicate what you are doing. “This is what I want to do and I am going to do it”. Now the PA is forced to act to stop you – and they usually won’t (unless it directly affects them). Then they will say or do something to stop you (because PA only act when cornered and their priorities are at risk) – but you, as the communicator, have them at the table now and you can be your best….and communicate and negotiate a satisfactory outcome for all (not be spiteful and uncaring – but do what you do best – help/compromise/communicate/). You will have what you need – but not feel guilty by being insensitive or spiteful in the execution of your plans.

Concentrate on your friends; your family; your children; your career; your neighbors; your football club; your community; your school; your electorate; your local charity; your hobbies; your environment; whatever. Fill your life with the joy and fun of everything you can if you are so inclined to share your passionate nature with people/organisiations that welcome creative/giving/energetic/loving people…but I implore you to let go of that dream of pulling that PA person closer to you - because I genuinely believe it can never happen.


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## losing it (Sep 15, 2009)

I'm married to a passive aggressive man and believe me, I know how hard it is. He knows this about himself and he's trying to overcome it but in the process he's becoming agressive which is causing a lot of problems or maybe it's still the PA that's causing the problem. He has these angry outburst and most of the time I don't even know what it's about.

I use to be PA but I overcame mine long before I met my husband. When I told him this he said I might be better off if I was still PA. I don't think so. I don't like taking a bunch of crap including his angry outburst.

Sometimes I feel like I'm paying for all the wrongs he ever allowed done to him while the ones who did it went on their merry little way never knowing anything was wrong.

Sometimes it feels like a living hell!


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## Wornthin (Jun 23, 2009)

Losing it: Is what you describe Passive aggressive…or just plain old “Taking your problems out on someone else”?

Don’t like the sound of these outbursts becoming “just aggressive”.

It sounds to me like your situation is progressing rapidly towards a point where professional advice is required - but, at a guess, do you think it might be advisable to try and redirect your partner’s frustrations in the right direction? Are you still at a point where you both can sit down and take stock of the issues that plague him that are not related to you (eg unresolved issues with his father/ignored for promotion/ let down by friends/ etc)? I hope you are still at a point where you can request that he try to admit to himself what the true issues are gnawing at him. Are you able to listen to his gripes? If you offer a suggestion are you able to accept that idea being rejected outright (without getting your nose out of joint) as he illogically rattles around on these other matters? Better for him to be dismissing your input – as he comes to terms with these other issues - but at least not blaming you?

I think you should try and agree on what issue you both believe are genuinely between you. If you come up with a list with nothing on it – then one (or both of you) might be fooling yourselves. But if you can identify what are genuinely your own problems – then maybe you can do something about that? can’t you? After all - if you work out what is just between you two - then the two of you are the only stake holders and then anything is possible.

If he can properly separate in his mind what are his own problems, and the problems he has with you, then you can begin to work on those things that you are empowered to do so. But there seems little point to me in "ill directed frustration". If he is not disciplined or analytical or honest enough with himself to work out on his own what are his and "your" problems - then I think you will need external help to guide you through the process.

.


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

'I have gone round and round in my mind countless times trying to understand if she is deliberately manipulating me or hopelessly self involved and selfish.'

your observations, which suggest a distinction, are chimerical.

and your observations buttress one other.

andand i wonder why you proffer such limited negative choices.


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## losing it (Sep 15, 2009)

Wornthin.
Read (Need a miracle) and you'll see some of what I've been dealing with for the last 10 years.

I feel he loves me as much as he's capable of loving anyone but it just isn't enough. For the record, I'm an attractive woman with a very good figure so there's no problem there.

I've been getting professional help for about 18 months and all it has helped is to make me know I'm not wrong in my feelings and I'm not a bad person even though he's always wanting me to read all these self help and self improvment books. To me that's saying there's something wrong with me and I'm not good enough. The counselor agrees.

No, we don't seem to be able to talk things out. No matter how it's said if it sounds critical of him he's offended because he acts as if he thinks he's beyond reproach. Nothing ever gets settled, it just goes round and round. I'm to the point I just don't say much of anything because I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I can listen to his gripes for hours and he knows and admits he's PA and has always been and we know where it comes from but when out of the blue he tells me he isn't going to be my little ****** and then goes on to tell me so and so back 25 to 30 years ago only wanted him around to be their little ******; Well WHOA. Where did that come from? I ask very little of him so that was completely uncalled for.

Post again after reading (Need a miracle.)


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## Wornthin (Jun 23, 2009)

Recent Cloud:
“
'I have gone round and round in my mind countless times trying to understand if she is deliberately manipulating me or hopelessly self involved and selfish.'

your observations, which suggest a distinction, are chimerical. “

I disagree on your assertion that there is no distinction in the above quote of mine. In relation to this statement of mine: I believe there can be a distinction between being deliberately manipulative (which involves sophistication) and being hopelessly selfish but not necessarily scheming. They are failings of a different type – one of character and the other of discipline and resolve. They are not interchangable in my mind.

As for the chimerical comment – rather apt when aimed at someone professing to be a quazi-hypomanic. I assume this was a deliberate choice of language. No -the situation between my wife and I is anything but Chimerical – since my open and communicative nature has seen me regularly bring up the specifics of my concerns and annoyances - and try to talk them out. She regularly confesses to deliberately ignoring things – but can never give me an explanation as to why she does it. She also admits that when it is something important to her – it is never allowed to lie idol – and that she relentlessly nudges whatever she can towards it - but matters that trouble me - she can allow them to lie unattended indefinitely and allowed to gather dust. Her defence is an inability to express herself – but on some rather significant matters relating to family/work/lifestyle (which I don’t wish to get bogged down in the specifics and run her down) she had admitted to manipulation to get her own way rather than express her intentions outright to me.
It is very frustrating and disappointing that she is never open and direct with me – when it is all I have ever been with her. So no – Chimerical is a bit off the mark in my situation when she admits to the behaviour.

As for “proffer such limited negative choices” –I can reply to this judgement of yours. I have tried for so long with the positive approaches (on which I tried to build my life) on (communication/openness/expression/compromising and sensitive attitude) – and just got lip service in return. She just does what she wants to do and it is up to me to fit in and make it all work. If I complain about thoughtless or selfish behaviour it is just “sorry – I’ll try not to do that” "Or yes - I should have thought about what you wanted when I did that - sorry - won't happen again. But it does. After about the hundredth time you just give up - I am sorry to say. I am human after all – not a saint. I believe I have exhausted the vast majority of outright positives (and would, of course, welcome any further ideas from yourself should you feel inclined to expunge some virtue) – but staying the course for my children’s sake, trying to find as much joy for myself within the confines of my chosen world without being dishonourable, and giving up on henpecking my wife to change her selfish ways is not entirely negative attitude I feel. It is the best (positive) approach I can come up with at present (barring any further wisdom from yourself).


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## Wornthin (Jun 23, 2009)

Losin it:

What can I say? It seems you have done all the right things. I cannot honestly give any sort of sensible reply to such complicated problems - but to congratulate you on your persitance and patience and strength at hanging on for so long.

I have to say - you make me feel a little pathetic in myself for what I have been complaining about.

The only thing I can think to offer to you is to keep trying to bring in important people to your husbands world. Family/friends - try to mend bridges on his behalf as much as you can - try to make him feel as good about himself for the positives he does - so maybe he can address what appear to be to me some very difficult self-worth issues.

Are you asking for help (for yourself) from those closest to you. I assume you are trusting and confiding in your own close friends and family for help? I hope you are not hiding this from everyone - thus adding to your burden.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Boy I am going through a horrible separation with my PA H. I never eally understood what that term meant - I am a bit slow with psychological tendencies and behaviours - but I have slowly come to realise that his is text book.

Dominating schizophrenic mother - estranged dad. 

(mistakenly thought he'd dealt with that before we hitched up - but hey I had no idea) 

Talk about avoiding things and letting them fester - 
my H told me he hadn't loved me for 10 years - and proceeded to list a whole range of grievances against me beginning with how I 'didn't like his friends when we met' (not true I'll just add).

another grievance was that he had wanted to break up with me on New Year's Eve 14 years ago - and I seduced him !!!!!!!!!

He has along list....

And to top it all off he was a real people pleaser - a hero at work and with everyone who doesn't know him too well - an image that was so lovely that even I loved it -
and mistook it fo rwho he really was/is. 

You know the times I really loved him was when we'd be out and I'd see him being really lovely to someone else's kids and I'd think - "he's a living saint!"

I just forgot that when we got home (at least for the last couple of years) that guys was nowhere to be found 


But can I say one thing - if it is difficult living with a PA it is excrutiating separating from them.

That petulant teenage behaviour is a real barrier to negotiation 
and yes you are so right - they only see their interests and act when they are up against a wall. 

And I think I am the other type of personality that you describe - open, honest, sharing.....lots of ideas very flexible -

I am going to go back and read your post a little more - it's scary - sure I'll have more to add


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## losing it (Sep 15, 2009)

Wornthin,
If I tried to mend bridges on his behalf he would be infuriated saying I was meddling where I have no business. I know him probably better than he knows himself. The daughter stopped contact within a year after the divorce. He feels maybe her mother poisioned her mind against him but I'm wondering if what she may have told her was true. He talks a lot, I listen, take it all in and eventually put it together and 2 + 2 doesn't always equal 4 if you know what I mean. He's even told me things before about himself and then later said he never said that when I'm sure he did.

As for family, he has one brother and hasn't been to his house in years even though he often passes within a few blocks of where he lives. He doesn't pick up the phone to call him either. The brother use to come by here at least once a month but that gets less and less. In the last year he's been here 2 or 3 times and it's been 5 months now since he's been out, called or emailed but he probably figures that works both ways. I know I would. When his parents were alive he didn't go visit them either. When his brother does come to visit I make him feel welcome but at the same time I try to give them their space so they can feel free to talk about anything they want.

I'm not giving up on being friends with the neighbors yet either. They're a little younger than us but still close enough to our age and they're decent people from what I can tell and he even agrees with that. All summer I've wanted to invite them over for dinner, a cook out or just to sit on the porch for awhile but he always comes up with an excuse. Hopefully they won't get offended before we can get things worked out that is if we can. I don't feel I should get them involved in these personal problems. If they knew what's really going on they might not even want us for friends.

I kept everything to myself for years and when I left him about 5 years ago my family was shocked. They had no idea anything was wrong. I don't hid it from them anymore. Well I don't tell my whole family but I do tell my children. They're supportive and understanding.

I have't had any friends in the 10 years I've lived in this part of the state.

He feels he's failed at everything he's ever done. He feels a l-o-t of spirtual guilt. He left his church probably 30 years ago because he was acused of trying to control the church. Even his brother agreed with that. He only told me the real reason a few days ago. All these years he's lead me to believe it was for another reason. He feels he's failed God. I build him up everywhere I can because he does have a lot of good qualities. He's intelligent, caring, helpful, giving, has the patience of Job in some things and he's even good looking. When it comes to mechanical things I don't think there's anything he can't figure out and fix. He'd give me anything he has the money to buy (I don't ask for much either) but what I really want is a peaceful life with him and his continous love. Not the on and off love he offers and all the angry outburst.

Speaking of the angry outburst (I'm going to do a seperate post on this) how does a person gets past all the years of this. How can I let the resentment and anger go. It feels like an impossible task when I know it's going to continue.

I think I'll make another appointment with the counselor. I have a few questions for her.

Thanks for your interest and input.


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## Wornthin (Jun 23, 2009)

Losing It:
Again…what can I say? Everything you have written here sounds like you are executing from a text book of positive approaches to problems. But it is clear you are getting no traction in your efforts – and that (as I can attest to) is disheartening more than anything else.

If you are speaking to a professional councilor – then they will obviously provide to you far more proven and reliable approaches that I could offer. I would imagine anything of use I might offer would already have been dispensed by them. Still, I feel compelled to try and offer something – so here are some musings that may prove entirely unhelpful or irrelevant – but may also give you a lift.

Obviously you should check any suggestion of mine with your councilor – as they are only ideas I am floating in an attempt to give you some hope.

One of my grandfathers was a very bitter and sour old man. I have since seen countless men like him in my travels – and all of them have the same problem. They had modest ambitions for their life that were not met – they copped a few financial kicks in the teeth along the way (in my grandfather’s case WW2 ruined his business when he was lugged away to fight for 3 years – returned to be humbly employed – but laid off in the 70’s when he still didn’t quite have enough money to retire as he would have liked – ended up on a pension scraping to get by). Spent the rest of his days running down any person that had a high salary/ saw the world as nothing but greedy and cynical bastards / considered all politicians as overpaid crooks / hated his workmates that survived the cuts as backstabbing opportunists. Died a very angry and lonely man – and the saddest thing of all was that I could see the relief (for herself) in my Grandmother’s eyes. She has lived another 10 years now – and is now well into her 90s – and has only been getting stronger as time has past – now that the burden of his bitterness has been lifted from her.
Failed ambition – particularly humble ambitions – are wounding. I can not bring myself to blame those for their bitterness – because in part it is fair for them to be angry – but I repeat myself – the rage must be appropriately directed. To my grandfathers credit I never heard him ever blaming my grandmother for his woes (but then I would never have been privy to such an exchange so I cannot truly know). But looking back at him I did get the impression that he considered her the only good thing that had ever happened to him. Perhaps you look at yourself within the context of my grandparents situation – and decide for yourself if you can see a similar path for the two of you.

Have you expressed your pain and suffering to him enough? Is he aware of the pain he is causing you when he attacks you? I would be interested what his criticisms are – and if any are valid. If some have some substance, and you could remove them, then he would have no excuse for transferring his disappointment onto you. If his criticism is not of an ongoing issue (which requires resolution) – but of past misdeeds being constantly dredged up – then do you have a mechanism in place to drag it all out in the open? – deal with it – and then agree that the matter has been put to bed forever (and to revisit it in the future is a dishonorable thing to do because you both agreed it was dealt with).
If you cannot put the past to bed – I ask what options or hope is there?
I would be interested in what his gripes with you are specifically.

How long have you been with your councilor? You do tend to bond with a specific person – but as with all medical/dental/professional services if it is not working – it shouldn’t hurt to see someone else. Find them independently for yourself – not a referral from the current service provider to a like minded peer. Obviously your councilor wouldn’t like this idea – but then – do you know a mechanic or a lawyer or even a greengrocer that would agree to such a thing?
Here is a weird thought. How would you feel about your husband finding a professional he could talk to – and first – without you? I know what you will say – he won’t try. But…ask him to find someone he likes and feels comfortable with and who would only focus on him for a while. If your husband was a religious man then he has obviously been prone to taking guidance in the past – so (and this is the important part) if he feels the person is SYMPATHETIC to his situation he is very likely to bond with this person – and you can go from there. Hard to get him to try (I know) but if you lure him with the idea of a sympathetic person focused on him and what he wants to achieve – he may not feel nearly as threatened at the idea of going to see someone who you have been talking to for months prior and (he feels) is going to put him on trial after you have been wording them up for so long on your history. I would try very hard to get him to choose someone he feels will take his side (not that there are sides – but he needs to feel this way!). Someone who will back him up (in his mind). If he cannot find anyone that does understand or reinforce him – what would that tell him about himself? It is a challenge for him – to find a professional that would agree with him and vindicate his attitude – and help him to direct his energies towards realising his just goals in life.


The next idea of mine might be stupid – but it makes sense to me in a bizarre sort of way. In a sense you and I are doing it right now;

Has your husband though about writing down his grievances? Can he keep a notebook of his thoughts and frustrations and disappointments – with a view to maybe one day presenting them to the people he is upset with? He may never actually do it – and if you are lucky – he will read it all back to himself one day and, having dealt with it, finally destroy it if he decides his grievances were unfounded. Writing is an incredibly relieving experience. Expression of anger and frustration into empty pages – that leaves no-one else wounded or defensive. He will not be criticized or have to deal with counter arguments. Encourage him to write down what he feels – and to review it and read it at another time to reflect. 
Don’t know – that might be a silly idea. I am just trying to think of ways for him to direct his anger away from you – and towards the issues that need directing.

I hope you can find you way out of this.


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## losing it (Sep 15, 2009)

Wornthin,

I don't mean to dump on you and you don't need to reply unless you just desire to. I just need to express myself and ramble a little to get some of this off my chest.

Maybe I haven't overcome my PA as well as I thought I had for example, he's hard of hearing and for years almost daily I would hear, you need to quit mumbling. I can't understand you and he'd make these mumbling sounds and tell me he's tone deaf to my tone of voice. I let it go for a long time then one night I blew up and told him I wasn't the one with the problem he is so quit making me feel I'm wrong. His hearing hasn't gotten any better but I haven't heard anything about mumbling since. Sometimes I do catch myself talking too softly and I speak louder but sometimes when I raise my voice he gets offended and I explain I'm only trying to speak loud enough for him to hear. He refuses to buy a good set of hearing aids. He's bought a couple sets of cheap ones the latest being a set that cost $300.00 and has had them in his ears about 5 minutes in the year he's had them. This doesn't seem to be an issue anymore or at least not that I'm aware of.

He went for CBT with a professional male that he respected and liked for about 10 years but nothing was accomplished. I don't think he was open and honest about his feelings and they can only deal with what they know. He also saw a psychiatrist all those years, took about every phyc drug there is all to no avail. Finally about 2 years ago the psychiatrist told him medications wasn't the answer for him, that he needed to deal with his inner demons.

As for the counselor I'm seeing, the first appointment was made for marriage counseling ( he refused to go after he said he would) so I ask if I could come alone. For years he used the excuse he wasn't going to a counselor unless it was a Christian counselor. I ask him to find one. He refused so I found one. He said we could work this out ourselves if only I would reason. How do you reason when most of the time you're not sure what you're trying to reason with and you feel like he's just trying to control you and bend you to his will. He told me before he went in to see this counselor (he went twice after I'd been going for about 9 months) he could go in there and manipulate her but he wouldn't (but he did) and he said he was good at it and he is and that he was going to say how it's going to be. He got to her when he got emontional because she could see the hurt. I see the hurt too and I know where most of it's coming from and I'd like to take it away but I can't. I didn't even put it there. I have a lot of hurts in my past also (I still have scars on my back where my daddy use to beat me with a stick when I was a little girl) and I have scars on my heart but I don't let the past hurts rule my life and he is letting his rule our life.

Religion is a big issue with him and he keeps pushing me towards religion. Lead and I might follow but push and I'll balk everytime. I think the beatings I took as a little girl made a rebel out of me.

I use to cry when he'd yell at me but not anymore. Now I get angry! Not once as he ever tried to consol me when I cried.

He doesn't like it when I read something besides the bible or a self help book. He has no right to tell me what to read!

I'm a caring, giving, loving, patient, affectionant and understanding person but I well know I'm not prefect. I don't nag or complain about little things. I don't think they're important enough to argue about.

He's right in that I don't communicate with him because I can't. I've told him how much he hurts me and how to the point I can't take this anymore and don't even want to anymore. I've ask him to go back to the marriage counselor with me (she made a good impression on him) so maybe she can act as a mediator so maybe we can get something accomplished instead of going round in circles. The communication is a big issue for him but I don't know what to do about it especially when what's caused me to shut down still continues. The counselor explained to me why I shut down but I already knew.

The writing is a very good idea and many counselors suggest it but he won't do it.

The communication is a big issue and so is religion but he's going about it all the wrong ways.

I know the way out of this but I won't take it (the door) until I'm sure it can't be solved. It really seems hopeless sometimes but I'm a determined person. There does come a point when a person has to admit defeat though.

As for him being a failure; I don't see him that way. He's had a lot of successes in his life but I guess his personal life has been a failure probably because he can't deal with the inner demons


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