# It boils down to the family we don't have yet.



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

*Non-negotiables*

As I am changing my approach to my husband and marriage...as I'm considering leaving him IF-IF-IF...as I'm being patient to be consistent in myself and hope he "comes around"...

Thoughts are percolating in my mind, about what is non-negotiable, what might truly constitute "ENOUGH ALREADY," and what would be "good enough" to stick with him for the long haul I was hoping for.

Since with him, currently "conversation" is a closed door, I'm having the conversation with myself and posting here.

Communicating about anything important is a threat to him, and he snaps like a caged fox.

So when he's ready, these are some things I'll need to say to him:

1. Are you willing and able to openly communicate with me about where our life is going, without becoming upset? (where you're searching for jobs, IF and WHEN we're moving back to XYZ, if, when, and where we might want to buy a house) *If you are unwilling and unable to communicate with me about uncertain scenarios without becoming upset and angry, I feel trapped in a life plan within which I have no freedom, and I cannot remain in a marriage in which I feel trapped. *

2. Are you willing and able to talk to me about our having children in the next 5 years--our hopes, expectations, and how we want to raise them? *If you are unwilling and unable to communicate with me about having children without becoming upset, I cannot have children with you. Since having children is DEFINITELY something I want in my life, I can no longer be with you.*

3. Are you willing and able to take responsibility for healing the parts of you that make you react by becoming upset, yelling, and shutting down? *If you cannot take responsibility for your emotions and reactions, I cannot continue to be with you.
*
These are non-negotiables for me. 

There are probably more. Maybe I'll add them.

Before anyone asks...the only topic I've ever OVERTLY brought up is #2, the having of the kids, which is connected to #1--where we'd want to raise them. But the main topic was #2.

I was met with angry defensiveness and shutdown.

If I can never DISCUSS this stuff with him, I won't want to DO them with him. And I'm hoping I'll know when it's time for these questions to surface.

Am I off?? Is it unreasonable to expect to discuss something like how you want to raise kids before you have them? Am I expecting too much? (P.S. If he were not so volatile, angry, and reactive, I probably WOULDN'T think it's so important to have the conversation in the first place. I'd relax about it.)

Just getting them out of my head for now. 

It aint' time yet. I know I'm getting ahead of myself.


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

My husband always gets defensive when it comes to talking about serious issues as well. It has been very difficult dealing with him and planning for the future. 

The one thing that I have found that works with him is speaking through email or texts about serious subjects. I'd rather talk to him in person, but it helps to speak with him through electronic correspondence because he gets less emotional and he has time to think about what he wants to say before he says it. Plus, I can always pull up the text or email where he said it if he claims he "forgot".


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

The thing is...

If he didn't have the temper and "power struggle" philosophy to life, I wouldn't worry.
If he didn't show signs of the behaviors I fear would traumatize a child, I wouldn't worry.

I think I need to add some things to my list...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is very constructive. It is completely fair. It is very mature - and by mature I mean that you are really focusing on "core" behaviors that will drive long term happiness. 

The simplistic "theory" goes like this. I can only change me - so I should just focus on me. And you are doing that. It is equally true that I can and should tell you under what circumstances WE have a viable marriage. My W and I have both done that with each other. And I cannot think of any situations off hand where the recipient said "tough sheet - deal with it". In each case the request was reasonable and the response was commitment to address it. 

In a way he is trying to bully you. Step 1 is you are not letting him. Step 2 will be that you insist he engage in key areas like a man, not a frightened little boy. Finish Step 1 completely and Step 2 will have a much greater chance of success.




credamdóchasgra said:


> As I am changing my approach to my husband and marriage...as I'm considering leaving him IF-IF-IF...as I'm being patient to be consistent in myself and hope he "comes around"...
> 
> Thoughts are percolating in my mind, about what is non-negotiable, what might truly constitute "ENOUGH ALREADY," and what would be "good enough" to stick with him for the long haul I was hoping for.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> The thing is...
> 
> If he didn't have the temper and "power struggle" philosophy to life, I wouldn't worry.
> If he didn't show signs of the behaviors I fear would traumatize a child, I wouldn't worry.
> ...


Ironically, it's likely one of the traits that attracted you to him.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Ironically, it's likely one of the traits that attracted you to him.


Yes and no.
It could be that those traits seemed swell 3 years ago, but freak me out with more grown-up prospects --parenthood--on the horizon.
It could be that he won't let me down and he will be a good partner who can keep those traits in a positive spin.

Either way...

That was then, and this is now.

And beyond the "now," remains to be seen. Not yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

In a way he is trying to bully you. Step 1 is you are not letting him. Step 2 will be that you insist he engage in key areas like a man, not a frightened little boy. Finish Step 1 completely and Step 2 will have a much greater chance of success.[/QUOTE]

About this last part---I really hope you are right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I am adding to my list of non-negotiables, my personal bottom lines.
It's only fair that he knows what they are...so eventually I'll need to tell him. Not time yet, but I'm preparing... (before you read and want to call me out on its resemblance to a legal contract--I know, I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek.)

4. Are you willing and able to offer patience, tolerance, and understanding when I am sick, pregnant, stressed, or otherwise physically or hormonally compromised? Can you do the same for one of our children when they are sick, whiney, or otherwise inconvenient and irritating? *If you cannot make an effort to do this, I won't feel safe to have a bad day with you, or to have children with many bad days, and I will not feel able to be with you. If you lose your temper with me AGAIN while I'm sick or otherwise compromised, I will know that you are willing to risk this relationship.*

5. THIS ONE IS A BIGGIE. Are you willing and able to express your frustration OTHER than *THREATENING *to do extreme behaviors such as throw something, hit something, pull over on the side of the road, leave, or turn the car around and cancel important or fun plans? *If you cannot do this, I will not feel comfortable raising kids with you, since I believe threatening extreme behaviors scares kids in an unhealthy way.* *If you continue to express your frustration by issuing intimidating/extreme threats, I will know that you are willing to risk this relationship.*

6. Are you willing and able to respect the boundaries of privacy between us, and respect the homes and time of our families and friends, to the extent that we do not argue in front of them and storm out of family games and functions? *If you are not willing and able to save our conflicts for US privately, I will not feel like I have a partner I can trust. **If you choose to confront or argue with me in the middle of family parties or storm out in a huff AGAIN, I will know that you are willing to risk this relationship.
*

These are my lines, and he's crossed all of them. Sadly, there are a few others too.

Honestly, if my #3 on the OP gets addressed, the rest of this may not all need to be said...they're specific behaviors that can are rooted in deeper stuff.

But suffice it to say, I've had enough of THOSE BEHAVIORS. 
I don't want to tolerate them anymore, and I want him to know that.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

You are one smart cookie to fix this before kids come into the picture.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> You are one smart cookie to fix this before kids come into the picture.


I wasn't such a smart cookie when I looked past the BLAZING RED FLAGS the first time I saw him and his parents in action.


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## AbsolutelyFree (Jan 28, 2011)

I'd like to extend what MagnoliaGal said:

There are a lot of women who encounter these difficulties and decide that having children _is the solution_. They believe that having children will have a profound effect on their husband and help to change him into the person they want him to become.

I feel this is really irrational and is a recipe for disaster. It's a nice, story-book thought that children will solidify the bond between a husband and wife, but I think that the reality is that it brings the strain and stress to a whole new level and unless there is already an awfully strong relationship in place, it is just going to encase the problems in cement instead of rooting them out.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I wasn't such a smart cookie when I looked past the BLAZING RED FLAGS the first time I saw him and his parents in action.


Stop beating yourself up.

Unproductive


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

7. Are you willing and able to make simple and painless adjustments in your daily life out of respect for something I value, even if you don't value it? Are you willing and able to accommodate simple requests of me even when it is not on your terms? If you cannot do this, I will envision a lifelong battle of getting simple needs and requests met unless it is on your terms. *Having simple requests honored on the condition of your approval makes me feel like I am living with a competitor, not a partner, and I do not want to live that way. If you are not willing to make simple life adjustments for things that are important to me, I know that you are willing to risk this relationship.*


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

What was your husband like before you married him?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mrs.G said:


> What was your husband like before you married him?


This, but less intense. Yes, I saw it coming. Yes, I ignored signs. I acted on faith. Going there is unproductive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> This, but less intense. Yes, I saw it coming. Yes, I ignored signs. I acted on faith. Going there is unproductive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I merely was thinking that perhaps he changed when you got married.

We learn from our past, so "going there" will remind you not to make the same mistake again. That sounds very productive to me, but maybe not to you. 

As a general rule, ignoring signs is a receipe for disaster. I knew my husband was very introverted, almost maddeningly so. We have both learned to compromise by poking our heads into each others respective worlds. That means he comes to couple's dinners with me and makes small talk with my friends, instead of hiding from them. It also means that I do not constantly pester him for conversation when he is internally occupied and I also enjoy quiet activities with him, like reading in bed or watching our favorite show.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I wasn't such a smart cookie when I looked past the BLAZING RED FLAGS the first time I saw him and his parents in action.


If all of us had read the signs more closely before we got married would we be HERE? You aren't alone. We fall in love and ignore the warning signs. Looking back there are glaringly obvious things I missed about my husband but it's always easy to have hindsight.

Don't beat yourself up as you are right it's unproductive. Stay in the present and work with what you've got. You really are doing great!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I agree with both of you, mg and mrs. G.
Whatever happens, the road ahead will be tough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Leah L (Jan 11, 2011)

When I was in the thick of it with my husband, I left for a week. I was shocked how good it felt to get away, I had been under a heavy wet blanket.

Can you get away to visit a friend or family for the weekend....or afford to go somewhere? Don't worry about his reaction, or over explain.....it might be good to spend some time and think about your future.

Please know I don't want to push you but laying the situation down for my husband was the best thing I could have done. 

Its not over until its over...but I'm not sure how much worse it can get if you broach the topic with him, no blame game, I think you both are past that. No certainty...just the question you posed in the other thread.

just my 0.02, best, Leah


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Leah L said:


> When I was in the thick of it with my husband, I left for a week. I was shocked how good it felt to get away, I had been under a heavy wet blanket.
> 
> Can you get away to visit a friend or family for the weekend....or afford to go somewhere? Don't worry about his reaction, or over explain.....it might be good to spend some time and think about your future.
> 
> ...


Actually, we are somewhere along a similar journey.

Part of the "elephant in the room" has to do with the fact that I spent over 2 weeks away from him, recently.
The traveling was pre-planned, BUT it wouldn't have been as emotionally distant if it hadn't been on the heels of conflict--such as the night he stormed out of family dinner.
The time away felt good for me...but I think it may have fed some resentment in him.

*If he would TELL me that, I would welcome the conversation*
But he won't. 
And my inquiring into his emotions, currently, would invite an attack I don't want to field right now.

But one thing you said, unfortunately, isn't true---he is not past the blame game. He's still deeply entrenched in it and holding onto it for dear life.

My personal challenge is to stay present and not jump ahead to "The Conversation" until we're both ready.
When Ive been consistent in my own "test-passing," and when I know what I want to say, I'll be ready.

And I'm sure he's not yet ready to listen to whatever that will be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Leah L said:


> When I was in the thick of it with my husband, I left for a week. I was shocked how good it felt to get away, I had been under a heavy wet blanket.
> 
> Can you get away to visit a friend or family for the weekend....or afford to go somewhere? Don't worry about his reaction, or over explain.....it might be good to spend some time and think about your future.
> 
> ...


Leah, I'm curious--what's the status now for you and your husband? 
Are you separating?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Leah L said:


> When I was in the thick of it with my husband, I left for a week. I was shocked how good it felt to get away, I had been under a heavy wet blanket.


When my best friend kicked her husband out for 6 weeks it really gave her clarity about how the mood of house was affected by him (he's angry and moody). Gave her perspective of what normal felt like.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> When my best friend kicked her husband out for 6 weeks it really gave her clarity about how the mood of house was affected by him (he's angry and moody). Gave her perspective of what normal felt like.


I can relate to this.

The 2 weeks I was away, I did feel good, free, and happy.

BUT...we're still not ready.

Last night there was some tension between us over something small. 
I should've handled it with fewer words, I let his sniping push my buttons a little. 
Sucks, but it's a new day.

He woke up grumpy, I woke up cheery. I heated up breakfast for both of us, didn't get a "thank you," cheerfully left the house.

When I can handle the small stuff calmly *consistently,* I'll be more ready to say to him what I need to say.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Leah L said:


> I'm not sure! LOL.
> 
> After I told him I am moving home, he finally seemed to get it.
> 
> ...


I am very happy for you! And I would be cautious too, like you are being.

I have a feeling this is where we are heading.

But there are some things i need to work through first:

1. The part of me that WANTS to preserve our marriage, WANTS to invite the conversation in a way that creates the best chances for success and partnership. No blaming, no "ultimatum" language. Love, AND standing up for myself at the same time.

2. I have a lifelong tendency to max out on commitment to things after 2-3 years. I think it comes from growing up as a military brat, moving every 2-3 years, never gettign attached to one place, scene, or community. I'm cautious to not be primarily motivated by that part of my personality.

3. I need to be prepared for the attacks/pushback/backlash no matter how gently/kindly/lovingly the conversation is broached. My husband is a fighter, and I need to expect the worst to come out of his mouth--and truth be told, THAT could make my decision easier. 

4. I need to be wholeheartedly okay with the possibility of moving on without him. 

As it is, I have a solid "safety net"--family, a house with plenty of room for me, and an education/degree I can use. The logistical risks are low, thank God.

But right now isn't the time. 

Right now, we are polite...humor and cheerfulness from me, and occasionally he seems to relax a bit, but he's STILL looking for ways to make ME look like an argumentative wench...and it's STILL an effort for me to resist taking the bait.

Is it bad that I wish he would overtly blow it in a really huge way so I could know with total clarity???


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Creda,
If you stick firmly with plan A, the crescendo will come. He will have a total melt down. In a perfect world:
1. You would tape record it - for your own sanity later if he tries to rewrite history
2. You would stay calm and just give him the look of "surprise" - like I cannot believe you are talking to ME this way up until you hold up your hand and say "stop" this is not constructive. And if he continues you leave the room - more importantly you go and pack your bag. 

Likely he will escalate and ask if you are divorcing him - or he may even threaten to divorce you if you leave. Be SILENT. Not a word. I don't care what he says - and he may resort to some ugly name calling to draw you into the conflict. No matter what he says - you quietly pack and leave. If he asks where you are going/when you will be back - NOT ONE WORD. Don't even say "I don't know". No matter what you say he will try to escalate - to drag you into his hell. 

Where ever you go, you freeze him out 100 percent for at least a day - maybe two. And after that - if he is in "unconditional apology" mode, you send him that very well thought out list you have created. And let him know that you want to make it work, however if anything on that list is a show-stopper for him, you are unsure whether the marriage is viable. 





credamdóchasgra said:


> I am very happy for you! And I would be cautious too, like you are being.
> 
> I have a feeling this is where we are heading.
> 
> ...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Creda,
> If you stick firmly with plan A, the crescendo will come. He will have a total melt down. In a perfect world:
> 1. You would tape record it - for your own sanity later if he tries to rewrite history
> 2. You would stay calm and just give him the look of "surprise" - like I cannot believe you are talking to ME this way up until you hold up your hand and say "stop" this is not constructive. And if he continues you leave the room - more importantly you go and pack your bag.
> ...


I am not ready to play hard-ball, and not ready for this scene.

But it does rile up something in me that's combination excitement/fear/anxiety/determination.

MEM....when you say "stick to plan A," are you talking about how I'm not letting him bully me? (your first reply)?

That said...I'm trying damn hard not to let him push my buttons--soda machine button, as Conrad calls it...

BUT last night he found a sneaky way to find that button.
I wasn't argumentative or b****y; but I did show some emotion.
I expressed that I care about how something happens in our home: 
"Hey, why did you xyz?" (it was wasteful.)
If that's a crime in this game, then I'm sunk!!!

-->it's also the reason for #7 on my list.

Maybe I'm digressing. But...the feedback and support from this forum *every step of the way* is INDISPENSABLE to me right now.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Creda,
> 
> Likely he will escalate and ask if you are divorcing him - or he may even threaten to divorce you if you leave. Be SILENT. Not a word. I don't care what he says - and he may resort to some ugly name calling to draw you into the conflict. No matter what he says - you quietly pack and leave. If he asks where you are going/when you will be back - NOT ONE WORD. Don't even say "I don't know". No matter what you say he will try to escalate - to drag you into his hell.
> 
> Where ever you go, you freeze him out 100 percent for at least a day - maybe two. And after that - if he is in "unconditional apology" mode, you send him that very well thought out list you have created. And let him know that you want to make it work, however if anything on that list is a show-stopper for him, you are unsure whether the marriage is viable.


MEM,

He won't ask me if I'm divorcing him.
He MAY threaten to divorce me if I leave.

He might shut up, let me pack my bags, and watch me leave.

OR he will attack my character--I'm a hypocrite, have no sense of commitment, am going to run crying to mommy and daddy or to some other guy who will take my crap, he'll just find a younger/hotter version of me (yeah, right), who do I think I am, he doesn't need this crap anyway, I talk a big talk, blah blah blah, FU, FU, FU.

Just preparing myself.

AND...if this all plays out, I strongly doubt he will be in "unconditional apology mode."

Just preparing myself.

Neither of us is ready yet.


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## Leah L (Jan 11, 2011)

Neither of you (?)

This struck me because a big turning point for me was when I simply got sick and tired of .... dancing around HIS moods, worrying about HIS attitude, wondering what I could do to change HIS moods.

Stop worrying about what he may/may not/will possibly do. You don't know and you won't until it happens. Do you think he is expending so much energy on what YOU might do, what YOU might think?

I am not picking on him, I think most men simply do not expend their energy in this fashion. 

Why don't you unload this and just think about what you would like to do. For now, maybe its absolutely nothing! That's ok!

But as I mentioned, a big point for me was when I decided to unburden myself with HIS stuff/reactions/what - ifs. Who cares what he may say IF you chose to go, if he baits you. Your relationship will not dissolve because of a simple "mistake" you made, a single conversation that didn't go well. If your relationship is that fragile it won't last anyway.

Please do not think me harsh, I applied the above to myself!

Focus on doing what is best for you, leave the rest. As what Mem said, don't play. 

(With my husband, our serious conversation lasted maybe 5 minutes. I told him what I was going to do, no explanation, no nothing. And I got no response from him at the time, I didn't ask and I still haven't! He knew the why's. And his change these days says it all).

Best, Leah


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Creda,
You don't need to use "my" plan. You do however need to have a well thought out plan for what YOU are going to do when he hits the crescendo. My opinion, however you do it you are going to have to drop an Arctic chill on him. 

I am very practiced with this stuff. When someone "loses it" anything you say. Anything at all conveys that you are willing to engage even when they are in crazy mode. BAD thing to do. 

If you think moving out is too aggressive that is fine. That said, you need to leave the room and lock yourself away from him until he regains his sanity. AND you need to stay in LC/NC mode until he gives you an unconditional apology. If you stay in the house - he will likely try to wait you out. If you are willing to be very patient - eventually he may try to kiss and make up. But ultimately you are best off combining the post melt down with your list. He will be "most receptive" at that point. 

The reason for not staying in the house if he gets abusive is simple. If you DO stay, it implies a certain level of tolerance for that behavior. 



credamdóchasgra said:


> MEM,
> 
> He won't ask me if I'm divorcing him.
> He MAY threaten to divorce me if I leave.
> ...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Leah L said:


> Neither of you (?)


No, neither of us.

I'll know when I'm ready.

Another part of my personality is that I process and become ready for things in my own time, sometimes in more time than it would take other people. In fact, part of what I'm struggling with is that I may not have given myself enough time before I got married, to become truly ready for it--I told myself I "should be ready," for a bunch of reasons, but few of them were MY reasons.

I'm not going to do that again.

I'm not just "worrying" about HIS moods and reactions. A lot of what I am processing has to do with ME. 

Your advice is true and helpful...I have it intellectually. Eventually some of it will sink in emotionally. At THAT point, i will be "ready," he will be (more) ready, and "we" will be more ready. I'm not afraid of a few months of becoming strong enough to handle something that will be VERY hard.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Creda,
> You don't need to use "my" plan. You do however need to have a well thought out plan for what YOU are going to do when he hits the crescendo. My opinion, however you do it you are going to have to drop an Arctic chill on him.
> 
> If you think moving out is too aggressive that is fine. That said, you need to leave the room and lock yourself away from him until he regains his sanity. AND you need to stay in LC/NC mode until he gives you an unconditional apology. If you stay in the house - he will likely try to wait you out. If you are willing to be very patient - eventually he may try to kiss and make up. But ultimately you are best off combining the post melt down with your list. He will be "most receptive" at that point.
> ...


Agree, agree, agree about the need for a well-thought out plan...which is why I'm not ready yet.

And I KNOW that if he gets nasty, I WILL commence packing a bag and heading to my sister's house 2 hours away, until...? 

I have very little confidence he'll go into apology mode and/or try to kiss and make up.

*He STILL doesn't see himself. He'll show NO accountability until he does. That's a big part of why we aren't ready for this yet.*

Current conditions: 
After our tension last night, his attitude was smug, and I slipped into peace-making mode just before I went to bed. I said to him: 
"1. We need to be nice to each other 2. We need to be willing to compromise 3. We need to trust each other. This isn't a power play. Good night"--then a kiss good night.

Today? I am cheerful, upbeat, planning to run the 2 miles to the kickball field before we play, and I plan to HAVE FUN. He'll be there too, watching me suck at kickball and have fun doing it.

HE is grumpy and passive-aggressively ignoring my questions and/or being snippy in response.

Perhaps I'm being "too nice." Gotta say, I'm just being me.

As long as I don't feel I have anything to apologize for, I feel fine and good!

When I'M ready, I'll post my well-thought plan, and thank you all in advance for your support and help along the way!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I wasn't such a smart cookie when I looked past the BLAZING RED FLAGS the first time I saw him and his parents in action.


That's why they say 'love is blind.'

When you're in that "infatuation" stage of love - there are no negatives, only glowing positives.

When that stage passes and you enter in the real marriage and all of it's ups and downs - all those things that drove you nuts (in a good way), now drive you crazy (in a bad way).

I keep trying to go back and see if I "missed" anything when we were dating - but I can't find anything. 

The change didn't come until later.

Then one stroke and a severe TBI later - I have a shell of the man I used to know.

But, after 27 years together, I can work with what I have and hope that counseling, etc., will change things.

You - starting off - no children yet - etc.

You have time to rectify and start over. I'm not sure I would have the patience if I was confronted with all I have now in the BEGINNING of our marriage - I think I would have walked already.

Good luck!


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