# Has faith/religion helped your relationship?



## *Deidre*

Just curious if some of you follow any particular faith/religion or set of spiritual beliefs, and has it helped your relationships? If you were/are struggling in your marriages, do you feel being centered in faith is helping you both to improve the relationship?

I left Christianity for a few years, and then was an atheist for two years, and then returned to the faith last year...and just wonder if making faith the centerpiece of our relationship will help shield us from some pitfalls?


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## ConanHub

*Deidre* said:


> Just curious if some of you follow any particular faith/religion or set of spiritual beliefs, and has it helped your relationships? If you were/are struggling in your marriages, do you feel being centered in faith is helping you both to improve the relationship?
> 
> I left Christianity for a few years, and then was an atheist for two years, and then returned to the faith last year...and just wonder if making faith the centerpiece of our relationship will help shield us from some pitfalls?


I'm not sure in your case.

God has definitely helped me in my marriage but I don't think I view my belief system like you do.

I'm sold out. I don't leave, try something else and come back.

If you have sincere faith, then I think it will help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf

Was raised Catholic, with a father who was attending a seminary to become a priest for a few years, was an altar boy(today's server), but I fell away after many things happened which were likely my fault and also just life, but found no discernable help from above. 

If miracles happen, I think they are mostly hidden or they are graces wrongly dubbed. 

I have family that does attend church regularly and they have gone through some tough marital issues as all do. They made it, but I think the people they spoke with and counseled with were more helpful than anything. I think their faith helped them to have something to hope for when hope in themselves failed them. I think they found themselves something to be passionate about without being a distraction for their commitment to their marriage. 

So, I do think it helps, but in the same way that a passion for anything that doesn't harm a marriage might and also give time to forget about their problems for a time. I think combining that with a good counselor/psychologist/etc., does about the same.

One thing that religious beliefs are that a hobby is not, it's timeless and doesn't go out of style unless you let it go.


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## Married but Happy

I would say that the lifelong strong atheism that we share coupled with deep Buddhist/Taoist philosophy that we live by has informed and guided our relationship.


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## MJJEAN

Yes, our faith has helped us both as individuals and as a couple. 

Provided the faith/religion isn't some kind of freaky cult, I think faith/religion can be a great help to couples if they are sincere in their beliefs.


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## arbitrator

*Deidre* said:


> Just curious if some of you follow any particular faith/religion or set of spiritual beliefs, and has it helped your relationships? If you were/are struggling in your marriages, do you feel being centered in faith is helping you both to improve the relationship?
> 
> I left Christianity for a few years, and then was an atheist for two years, and then returned to the faith last year...and just wonder if making faith the centerpiece of our relationship will help shield us from some pitfalls?


*Let's get one thing straight: whether you are religious or even agnostic is not going to circumvent problems!

From my perspective, as well as my experience in knowing that as a Methodist, the problems just seem to keep coming and coming! In essence, those problems simply are "tests of faith," which as a dedicated Christian, makes it easier to understand and comprehend, and be better able to solve from a Christian perspective.

And with a like-minded spouse in tow, it makes it so much easier to try to solve those tests as a dedicated marital team through mutual understanding and more importantly through prayer!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Definitely having the same belief system and acting on it together will help.

What does your man believe?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

ConanHub said:


> I'm not sure in your case.
> 
> God has definitely helped me in my marriage but I don't think I view my belief system like you do.
> 
> I'm sold out. I don't leave, try something else and come back.
> 
> If you have sincere faith, then I think it will help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, before I left the faith, I can honestly say I didn't feel 'born again.' Coming back to the faith, largely had to do with the Holy Spirit, and my faith is entirely new now. I'm grateful that I left it though for a time, because as an atheist, I could look at all religions in a more objective way, and coming back to faith, I understand atheism better than I did before. It always seemed mysterious to me, before I 'deconverted.' Faith for many is a journey, for some...they just know. I had to take a journey. My fiance is a Christian, more moderate.

My concern is...that I don't believe in staying in an unhealthy marriage, one with abuse and infidelity, let's say. But, Christianity teaches to turn the other cheek, so I find some of my own personal views difficult to reconcile with my faith.


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## *Deidre*

arbitrator said:


> *Let's get one thing straight: whether you are religious or even agnostic is not going to circumvent problems!
> 
> From my perspective, as well as my experience in knowing that as a Methodist, the problems just seem to keep coming and coming! In essence, those problems simply are "tests of faith," which as a dedicated Christian, makes it easier to understand and comprehend, and be better able to solve from a Christian perspective.
> 
> And with a like-minded spouse in tow, it makes it so much easier to try to solve those tests as a dedicated marital team through mutual understanding and more importantly through prayer!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with this! Thank you for sharing your views, here. You are right, sheer belief of any sort, isn't going to circumvent secular problems that come our way. There are temptations every single day before us. I hope that we make the right decisions, and that if we don't...how far are we to 'forgive' the other? Christianity is all about forgiveness, I mean...Jesus Himself, died for me...for everyone, without expectation. To follow Him, means to give up my life...give up my ego. That is hard. lol


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## *Deidre*

Married but Happy said:


> I would say that the lifelong strong atheism that we share coupled with deep Buddhist/Taoist philosophy that we live by has informed and guided our relationship.


I think this is so cool.  Thank you for sharing. I explored Buddhism when I was an atheist, and the beauty of it is that the concepts transcend religion. Anyone can apply them to their life.


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## Fozzy

*Deidre* said:


> Well, before I left the faith, I can honestly say I didn't feel 'born again.' Coming back to the faith, largely had to do with the Holy Spirit, and my faith is entirely new now. I'm grateful that I left it though for a time, because as an atheist, I could look at all religions in a more objective way, and coming back to faith, I understand atheism better than I did before. It always seemed mysterious to me, before I 'deconverted.' Faith for many is a journey, for some...they just know. I had to take a journey. My fiance is a Christian, more moderate.
> 
> My concern is...that I don't believe in staying in an unhealthy marriage, one with abuse and infidelity, let's say. But, *Christianity teaches to turn the other cheek, so I find some of my own personal views difficult to reconcile with my faith.*


Turning the other cheek is about forgiveness. Forgiving someone doesn't mean you have to stay with them and absorb more abuse. You protect yourself, leave, forgive, and move on without seeking retribution.

That's turning the other cheek.


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## *Deidre*

2ntnuf said:


> Was raised Catholic, with a father who was attending a seminary to become a priest for a few years, was an altar boy(today's server), but I fell away after many things happened which were likely my fault and also just life, but found no discernable help from above.
> 
> If miracles happen, I think they are mostly hidden or they are graces wrongly dubbed.
> 
> I have family that does attend church regularly and they have gone through some tough marital issues as all do. They made it, but I think the people they spoke with and counseled with were more helpful than anything. I think their faith helped them to have something to hope for when hope in themselves failed them. I think they found themselves something to be passionate about without being a distraction for their commitment to their marriage.
> 
> So, I do think it helps, but in the same way that a passion for anything that doesn't harm a marriage might and also give time to forget about their problems for a time. I think combining that with a good counselor/psychologist/etc., does about the same.
> 
> One thing that religious beliefs are that a hobby is not, it's timeless and doesn't go out of style unless you let it go.


Oh, this is really a heartfelt post, thank you. I believe that a miracle did happen last year to me...I had an experience of faith, when I was an atheist. I had let go completely of Jesus and the idea of a deity existing. I wasn't angry, just indifferent over time. And out of nowhere, this happened. And it changed my life. I grew up Catholic, and while there is much beauty in the RCC, it doesn't seem to focus enough on being born again, which Jesus spoke of. And when you feel it, you will just know. It can be challenging at times to 'be like' Jesus. But, that's what the faith calls believers to do.


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## *Deidre*

Fozzy said:


> Turning the other cheek is about forgiveness. Forgiving someone doesn't mean you have to stay with them and absorb more abuse. You protect yourself, leave, forgive, and move on without seeking retribution.
> 
> That's turning the other cheek.


This is beautifully put...so many conflicting points of view about this, even from pastors. I agree with you, forgiveness shouldn't mean we keep accepting the bad behavior.


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## arbitrator

*Deidre* said:


> I agree with this! Thank you for sharing your views, here. You are right, sheer belief of any sort, isn't going to circumvent secular problems that come our way. There are temptations every single day before us. I hope that we make the right decisions, and that if we don't...how far are we to 'forgive' the other? Christianity is all about forgiveness, I mean...Jesus Himself, died for me...for everyone, without expectation. To follow Him, means to give up my life...give up my ego. That is hard. lol


*Amen, Sweetheart!

You've simply made my point as well as my day!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

*Deidre* said:


> Well, before I left the faith, I can honestly say I didn't feel 'born again.' Coming back to the faith, largely had to do with the Holy Spirit, and my faith is entirely new now. I'm grateful that I left it though for a time, because as an atheist, I could look at all religions in a more objective way, and coming back to faith, I understand atheism better than I did before. It always seemed mysterious to me, before I 'deconverted.' Faith for many is a journey, for some...they just know. I had to take a journey. My fiance is a Christian, more moderate.
> 
> My concern is...that I don't believe in staying in an unhealthy marriage, one with abuse and infidelity, let's say. But, Christianity teaches to turn the other cheek, so I find some of my own personal views difficult to reconcile with my faith.


That is a very misunderstood scripture.

If your H cheats or abuses you, you can divorce him if you want without violating your faith.

Catholics are stricter but not biblical in their beliefs on this issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

ConanHub said:


> That is a very misunderstood scripture.
> 
> If your H cheats or abuses you, you can divorce him if you want without violating your faith.
> 
> Catholics are stricter but not biblical in their beliefs on this issue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I don't know...Jesus didn't agree with divorce, and if you divorce and remarry, you are committing adultery, yes? (according to Scripture) That said, the Catholic faith teaches about the annulment process, not sure if that is what you're referring to, and the RCC bases annulments (that the marriage in question, was never a Sacramental marriage to begin with, etc) on Scripture. 

But, we all know that many people interpret the Bible differently...so...yea. lol


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## arbitrator

*Deidre* said:


> Well, I don't know...Jesus didn't agree with divorce, and if you divorce and remarry, you are committing adultery, yes? (according to Scripture) That said, the Catholic faith teaches about the annulment process, not sure if that is what you're referring to, and the RCC bases annulments (that the marriage in question, was never a Sacramental marriage to begin with, etc) on Scripture.
> 
> But, we all know that many people interpret the Bible differently...so...yea. lol


*There are three acceptable scriptural reasons for divorce according to Methodist doctrine: (1) adultery, (2)physical or emotional abandonment, and (3) mental and/or physical cruelty to a spouse and/or child!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

*Deidre* said:


> Well, I don't know...Jesus didn't agree with divorce, and if you divorce and remarry, you are committing adultery, yes? (according to Scripture) That said, the Catholic faith teaches about the annulment process, not sure if that is what you're referring to, and the RCC bases annulments (that the marriage in question, was never a Sacramental marriage to begin with, etc) on Scripture.
> 
> But, we all know that many people interpret the Bible differently...so...yea. lol


He also hates adultery. Some folks quote certain scriptures while ignoring others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

ConanHub said:


> He also hates adultery. Some folks quote certain scriptures while ignoring others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm speaking of something specific, not discussing Scripture in its entirety, but you seem to want to spar with me since you've entered into this thread, and I'd prefer if you didn't post in this thread any further. Thanks.


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## *Deidre*

arbitrator said:


> *There are three acceptable scriptural reasons for divorce according to Methodist doctrine: (1) adultery, (2) abandonment, and (3) mental and/or physical cruelty to a spouse and/or child!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is very reasonable, and wish all churches taught this. They don't.


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## MJJEAN

*Deidre* said:


> My concern is...that I don't believe in staying in an unhealthy marriage, one with abuse and infidelity, let's say. But, Christianity teaches to turn the other cheek, so I find some of my own personal views difficult to reconcile with my faith.


Even the Catholic Church, which doesn't believe divorce on a spiritual level is possible, says that it is moral to separate or divorce in cases of abuse, infidelity, or to preserve the safety of the spouses and/or children, including financial. For example it would be considered moral to divorce an alcoholic who is endangering the family's ability to keep a home and pay the bills with irresponsible behavior.


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## MJJEAN

*Deidre* said:


> Well, I don't know...Jesus didn't agree with divorce, and if you divorce and remarry, you are committing adultery, yes? (according to Scripture) That said, the Catholic faith teaches about the annulment process, not sure if that is what you're referring to, and the RCC bases annulments (that the marriage in question, was never a Sacramental marriage to begin with, etc) on Scripture.
> 
> But, we all know that many people interpret the Bible differently...so...yea. lol


A "natural marriage" is one between unbaptized people or where one is Baptized and the other is not.

A Sacramental marriage is between two people who are Baptized.

Neither has anything to do with validity of the marriage. A Sacramental marriage can be declared null during the Annulment process just like a "natural marriage" can be.

The basic idea behind the Decrees of Nullity is that, while a valid marriage cannot be dissolved, the marriage might not have been valid in the first place.

In simple terms, the Church isn't holding people to vows they didn't fully understand, were coerced into, were incapable of keeping due to mental impairment, or who fraudulently entered into the covenant.


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## 2ntnuf

ConanHub said:


> That is a very misunderstood scripture.
> 
> If your H cheats or abuses you, you can divorce him if you want without violating your faith.
> 
> Catholics are stricter but not biblical in their beliefs on this issue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Biblical, but seem to try to go with God's original intent for marriage, instead of the dispensation in the New Testament of divorce. 

"The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its very nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of children" 

It's definitely a curiosity for me. Thanks for the comment, and I mean that. I'm not being facetious. It cause me to look it up.


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## 2ntnuf

MJJEAN said:


> Even the Catholic Church, which doesn't believe divorce on a spiritual level is possible, says that it is moral to separate or divorce in cases of abuse, infidelity, or to preserve the safety of the spouses and/or children, including financial. For example it would be considered moral to divorce an alcoholic who is endangering the family's ability to keep a home and pay the bills with irresponsible behavior.


Yeah, and it seems as though they believe there is a "permanent mark" on the soul of those who enter into the covenant with God. I hope I'm not misinterpreting.


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## 2ntnuf

It's not as tough as what one might think to get an annulment in the Catholic church. However, there is a process and it does take a little time. Probably because there are so many who want an annulment?


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## ConanHub

*Deidre* said:


> I'm speaking of something specific, not discussing Scripture in its entirety, but you seem to want to spar with me since you've entered into this thread, and I'd prefer if you didn't post in this thread any further. Thanks.


Hehehe. This isn't sparring.  

Take it easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN

2ntnuf said:


> Yeah, and it seems as though they believe there is a "permanent mark" on the soul of those who enter into the covenant with God. I hope I'm not misinterpreting.


Yes, that's true.



2ntnuf said:


> It's not as tough as what one might think to get an annulment in the Catholic church. However, there is a process and it does take a little time. Probably because there are so many who want an annulment?


Yes and no. I've been through the annullment process. The Church believes nothing that happens AFTER the vows are spoken can invalidate a valid marriage. So the investigation surrounds the time period around the ceremony. And the Church requires proof. 

I had to submit a 19 page questionnaire that was quite detailed. I also had to submit the names of 5 Witnesses who would give their own testimony. And I needed copies of arrest records, psych records, counseling reports, etc. There were also in person interviews. The process took 21 months.

When I had my annullment, the case was reviewed and judged by a local Tribunal and then that was reviwed by a second Tribunal. 

Now, since Pope Francis streamlined the process and only the ruling of one Tribunal is required, the process should take less time.


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## 2ntnuf

MJJEAN said:


> Yes, that's true.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no. I've been through the annullment process. The Church believes nothing that happens AFTER the vows are spoken can invalidate a valid marriage. So the investigation surrounds the time period around the ceremony. And the Church requires proof.


I new that the idea was to prove that somehow the participant was not able to make a vow/covenant. A family member has gone through it. That person will not help me, from what I can gather when I talked with her. 

I started one recently, but have to fill out the papers and send them in. It looks like it's very serious business. Not sure what I will do, since the marriage split in '93 and the divorce was finalized in '97. 

Never got an annulment before the second one, but was married by a Presbyterian minister the second time, so I wasn't worried about the annulment, just the state's divorce laws. 



> I had to submit a 19 page questionnaire that was quite detailed. I also had to submit the names of 5 Witnesses who would give their own testimony. And I needed copies of arrest records, psych records, counseling reports, etc. There were also in person interviews. The process took 21 months.


Would be interesting to hear the story. I did not know how very serious it was until I received the paperwork and looked at it. I do not know if I even have 5 witnesses for any of it. I may not be able to get the annulment. Who knows? It's a Jubilee year, as well. 



> When I had my annullment, the case was reviewed and judged by a local Tribunal and then that was reviwed by a second Tribunal.
> 
> Now, since Pope Francis streamlined the process and only the ruling of one Tribunal is required, the process should take less time.


I hope it's easier. I'd like to put it behind me.

What bugs me is, I wonder what it means to my children? Probably nothing.


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## Blossom Leigh

Our faith had a major impact on our relationship. It was the core of our reconciliation. In turn it impacted my faith in a major way. At the height of my pain I felt the Lord lay it on my heart "The only thing I want you to do is be merciful to him." So, I was and three months later he gave his life to Christ.


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## wellseasoned

My wife and I are both Christians. Definitely has kept us together for almost 24 years of marriage.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
My wife is somewhere between agnostic, and very slightly Christian Scientist. I am somewhere between atheist and satanist. 

Religion or lack of same has had not effect that I can think of on our relationship. We've been together ~35 years, married almost 30. Other than are rather mediocre and limited sex life, we are very happy together.


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## SimplyAmorous

Ok.. this won't come off a normal answer here...but I think my religion & husband's is just being awfully romantic at







...I would consider us both sensitive & spiritual in nature to always want to DO the right thing for the other, for the better of our family.. to strive to be TRUE to those in our lives.. in our inner circle.. to not hinder or harm our sphere of influence in this world.. 

I started out as a christian , or I should say "tried to be".. that is what I grew up with .. but I was always always always questioning my beliefs..... others beliefs (our dearest friends are Mormons).... so much I would buy books on these subjects .... I wanted to UNDERSTAND why we believe as we do, why anyone does.....also to invite hearing WHY others rejected our beliefs.. 

One of my favorite debaters, God rest his soul, was an Atheist ! ..

Truth be told....I reasoned a long long time ago.. that our choices today have a huge impact on our tomorrow... but also the choices of others - even complete strangers can destroy us ... so much unfairness in life.... it trips me up.. I do not like the Book of JOB ! the Injustices brought upon this man...like he was some Pawn being tested...and somehow he passed..watching his entire family DIE, & everything he worked for, his livestock ... then boils all over his body(?) & in excruciating pain..

I could see ME being his wife saying "Curse God & die".. wouldn't many of us... 

Though there are many wonderful lessons in the Bible, the parables, etc.. so much goodness therein...WISDOM for the ages...even in the end of the book of JOB... those friends of his - they were "miserable comforters" ...a lesson we really don't understand nor should we assume so easily, WHY BAD things happen to others... 

I have a different perspective on how I feel one's faith , or should I say a community of Faith is beneficial...what do I miss the most about going to church >> the Fellowship.. my friends !...it's this community of people...there for each other.. coming together in times of crisis / sadness.. lifting each other UP...

I have always felt.. no matter what our beliefs are.. it's more about having others in our lives .. that helps us get through the hard times.. the storms of life.. Who we hang with, who we take counsel from influences our walk....this includes our marriages. 

This is one of my favorite scriptures pertaining to marriage... though I kinda see this as common sense really.. but a caring God is implied in the "threefold cord" ending.....










I would call myself a Deist today... my husband.. he really doesn't care about practicing a faith.. asking him about this one time.. he had me almost rolling on the floor in how he responded.. I guess we've seen too many Holy rollers in our time.... it's turned him off... but ya know.. knowing what the fruits of the spirit are .....listed here....



He's been a wonderful example TO ME.. Beings I got on my knees at age 15 praying for someone like him to walk into my life... and how it all played out.. I am just very thankful.. and it's true.. many scriptures have given me comfort & insight over the years in how to live...this also reflects back to marriage - in how we treat each other.


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## Vinnydee

My bisexual wife and I have a non monogamous marriage and had sex with others, alone and in groups. We shared a live in girlfriend for most of our 40+ year marriage and had threesomes with her a few thousand times, even after she got married. In our case, I would say that a lack of faith/religion has helped my relationship because all of my friends and family who are religious are divorced, with most of them divorcing due to their faith which says that if you want to love or have sex with another person, as well as your wife, you must destroy your existing life, hate each other, share custody of the children and sell off your home. 

It could also be that since I do not believe in any god or go to any church, that I am off the grid and left to live my life in a way that makes me and my wife happy. I sure have a much better life than most religious people I know and that seems to piss them off.


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## *Deidre*

Vinnydee said:


> My bisexual wife and I have a non monogamous marriage and had sex with others, alone and in groups. We shared a live in girlfriend for most of our 40+ year marriage and had threesomes with her a few thousand times, even after she got married. In our case, I would say that a lack of faith/religion has helped my relationship because all of my friends and family who are religious are divorced, with most of them divorcing due to their faith which says that is that of you want to love or have sex with another person, as well as your wife, you must destroy your existing life, hate each other, share custody of the children and sell off your home.
> 
> It could also be that since I do not believe in any god or go to any church, that I am off the grid and left to live my life in a way that makes me and my wife happy.


Your story is so different wow...you have led a really interesting and ...adventurous life.


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## farsidejunky

My wife and I are both Christians, although we are not quite the crazy people most think of when envisioning Christians.

We watch South Park, periodically curse, and are pretty edgy in things.

But each night at bed time, we hold each others hands, say what we are thankful about from each other for that day, and then pray together.

It is pretty powerful. It is hard to go to sleep with resentment when the last thing you before sleep is humble yourself before your maker with your spouse.

It was the single best thing we incorporated into our relationship in our rekindling.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## *Deidre*

farsidejunky said:


> My wife and I are both Christians, although we are not quite the crazy people most think of when envisioning Christians.
> 
> We watch South Park, periodically curse, and are pretty edgy in things.
> 
> But each night at bed time, we hold each others hands, say what we are thankful about from each other for that day, and then pray together.
> 
> It is pretty powerful. It is hard to go to sleep with resentment when the last thing you before sleep is humble yourself before your maker with your spouse.
> 
> It was the single best thing we incorporated into our relationship in our rekindling.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


This is really beautiful, thank you for sharing!!


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## TAMAT

I read this recently and I can't comment about the accuracy of the data, or even if going to church is a cause or merely a correlated variable of the increase in longevity....

"Dr. Byron Johnson said that the studies show that if you go to church on a regular basis, you'll add seven years to your life, if you're white. If you're black, you'll add 14 years to your life."

The studies compiled were for Black and White Americans, so I'm not sure if the same data would be true for the UK, but 14 years is colossal.

Tamat


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> But each night at bed time, we hold each others hands, say what we are thankful about from each other for that day, and then pray together.
> 
> It is pretty powerful. It is hard to go to sleep with resentment when the last thing you before sleep is humble yourself before your maker with your spouse.
> 
> It was the single best thing we incorporated into our relationship in our rekindling.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I have always admired this about you, far. I wish Dug and I did this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wanttolove

I am a Christian and have been my entire life. At one point in my life, I was a youth pastor. I was raised by two Christian parents, parents who showed me that putting Christ in the center of their lives, much less their marriage, isn't as easy as it seems it should be. That is where I learned about faith and commitment, the importance of pushing through the hard times and learning to pray during good/bad. It certainly helps knowing that I am not in this alone, that I am accountable to a God who knows me.

My wife is the daughter of conservative Baptist missionaries. Faith is an integral part of her life. That is probably what sealed the deal and helped me decide to ask her to marry me.

Our marriage is far from perfect, but we are still married after 23 years. Both of us have parents who celebrated 50 years of marriage. Their relationships grew as they seek God together. I am still learning to do that with my wife... but I have the example set by my parents. My parents are close to sixty years of marriage and both tell me that their love has grown even more since they celebrated fifty years. A lot of that they attribute to concentrating on their faith together.

God will bless your relationship. Seeking God together requires an openness and honesty that is another form of intimacy. You have to practice at being that open, learn to accept each other as God accepts you. That's great when you can do that.


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## *Deidre*

TAMAT said:


> I read this recently and I can't comment about the accuracy of the data, or even if going to church is a cause or merely a correlated variable of the increase in longevity....
> 
> "Dr. Byron Johnson said that the studies show that if you go to church on a regular basis, you'll add seven years to your life, if you're white. If you're black, you'll add 14 years to your life."
> 
> The studies compiled were for Black and White Americans, so I'm not sure if the same data would be true for the UK, but 14 years is colossal.
> 
> Tamat


 That is so very interesting! I wonder if there's really something to it. I bet it has to do with stress management. When I was an atheist, I was more stressed and returning to faith, I feel more grounded and at peace. 



wanttolove said:


> I am a Christian and have been my entire life. At one point in my life, I was a youth pastor. I was raised by two Christian parents, parents who showed me that putting Christ in the center of their lives, much less their marriage, isn't as easy as it seems it should be. That is where I learned about faith and commitment, the importance of pushing through the hard times and learning to pray during good/bad. It certainly helps knowing that I am not in this alone, that I am accountable to a God who knows me.
> 
> My wife is the daughter of conservative Baptist missionaries. Faith is an integral part of her life. That is probably what sealed the deal and helped me decide to ask her to marry me.
> 
> Our marriage is far from perfect, but we are still married after 23 years. Both of us have parents who celebrated 50 years of marriage. Their relationships grew as they seek God together. I am still learning to do that with my wife... but I have the example set by my parents. My parents are close to sixty years of marriage and both tell me that their love has grown even more since they celebrated fifty years. A lot of that they attribute to concentrating on their faith together.
> 
> God will bless your relationship. Seeking God together requires an openness and honesty that is another form of intimacy. You have to practice at being that open, learn to accept each other as God accepts you. That's great when you can do that.


This is so wonderful to read! Thank you for adding to this thread with your own experiences.

My fiance and I are on the same page pretty much with our faith, I'd say that he is more moderate than I am with some things, but we both have similar worldviews, which I believe is important in a marriage.


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## Adelais

When we first married I thought our faith would keep our marriage safe and strong. I used to think that since my husband loved God more than he loved me that he would not do something to hurt me, because it would be hurting God.

I thought my husband was "teflon" so I failed to cover him in prayer.

After his adultery, I did not blame God, but I thought that my husband loved himself more than he loved God or me! Now I am learning that my husband is motivated by insecurity, and self doubt, not self love.

My faith has led me to good Christian counselors, who value the marriage covenant, and who love us enough to be honest, using scripture as the plumb line. I made a promise to my husband, "for better or for worse" and sometimes I have wanted to give up and end it, but because of my faith, I have stayed and given him time to grow, even if it is slow. Through this trial, God has shown me that I lack the capacity to give people grace, and through our reconciliation I have begun to learn to give grace.

My husband has endured a lot from me since his adultery. His humility, strength, self control and love have given me confidence that he is a good man at heart, that he is truly sorry, and that he will never do something like that again. He has treated me the way Jesus would. I really believe that no man could have endured the hell that I put him through without the help of Jesus.


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## *Deidre*

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> When we first married I thought our faith would keep our marriage safe and strong. I used to think that since my husband loved God more than he loved me that he would not do something to hurt me, because it would be hurting God.
> 
> I thought my husband was "teflon" so I failed to cover him in prayer.
> 
> After his adultery, I did not blame God, but I thought that my husband loved himself more than he loved God or me! Now I am learning that my husband is motivated by insecurity, and self doubt, not self love.
> 
> My faith has led me to good Christian counselors, who value the marriage covenant, and who love us enough to be honest, using scripture as the plumb line. I made a promise to my husband, "for better or for worse" and sometimes I have wanted to give up and end it, but because of my faith, I have stayed and given him time to grow, even if it is slow. Through this trial, God has shown me that I lack the capacity to give people grace, and through our reconciliation I have begun to learn to give grace.
> 
> My husband has endured a lot from me since his adultery. His humility, strength, self control and love have given me confidence that he is a good man at heart, that he is truly sorry, and that he will never do something like that again. He has treated me the way Jesus would. I really believe that no man could have endured the hell that I put him through without the help of Jesus.


Oh my gosh, your post deserves more than 100 likes! I have tears in my eyes reading this, for I think maybe I lack giving grace at times with people. Personally, I never looked at the vows 'for better or for worse' in terms of staying after infidelity, however...I do believe that adultery is less about the marriage, and more about an internal battle going on inside of the ''cheating spouse.'' I think your post here is so beautiful and eye opening for someone like me, and truly inspiring. I can only imagine how it had to hurt you, but you both have the love of Jesus to make you and your marriage stronger and the glory goes to Him. Thank you so much for sharing this! I will hold you both in my prayers, too.


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## ConanHub

You are actually too nice!

I am often too hard.

I will share my story here soon.

You started a nice thread and I have to remember going forward what a gentle soul you are.

Please forgive this barbarian for not being more careful with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

farsidejunky said:


> My wife and I are both Christians, although we are not quite the crazy people most think of when envisioning Christians.
> 
> We watch South Park, periodically curse, and are pretty edgy in things.
> 
> *But each night at bed time, we hold each others hands, say what we are thankful about from each other for that day, and then pray together.
> 
> It is pretty powerful. It is hard to go to sleep with resentment when the last thing you before sleep is humble yourself before your maker with your spouse.*
> 
> It was the single best thing we incorporated into our relationship in our rekindling.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


*This is simply great, 'Junky! And while I've always endeavored to live by that hollowed Christian mantra, unfortunately, neither of the women that I chose to marry would even begin to try to adhere to it!

Do you think that maybe God is remotely trying to tell me something?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

ConanHub said:


> You are actually too nice!
> 
> I am often too hard.
> 
> I will share my story here soon.
> 
> You started a nice thread and I have to remember going forward what a gentle soul you are.
> 
> Please forgive this barbarian for not being more careful with you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hahaha Aw...you are forgiven.  
I look forward to your story.


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## *Deidre*

arbitrator said:


> *This is simply great, 'Junky! And while I've always endeavored to live by that hollowed Christian mantra, unfortunately, neither of the women that I chose to marry would even begin to try to adhere to it!
> 
> Do you think that maybe God is remotely trying to tell me something?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love is patient. Like God is. Maybe they will eventually desire to do that with you...with God, all things are possible.


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## arbitrator

*Deidre* said:


> Love is patient. Like God is. Maybe they will eventually desire to do that with you...with God, all things are possible.


*That won't ever happen, @*Deidre* ~ They both live their very own lives, and sad to say, they will only implore the Heavenly Father into their lives on a strictly "as needed" basis! I truly wish that they would come to let Him live forthrightly within their lives!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

arbitrator said:


> *That won't ever happen, @Diedre* ~ They both live their very own lives, and sad to say, they will only implore the Heavenly Father into their lives on a strictly "as needed" basis! I truly wish that they would come to let Him live forthrightly within their lives!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was an atheist at this time last year. I didn't even call upon God on an 'as needed' basis. lol But, God can do remarkable things.


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## arbitrator

*Deidre* said:


> I was an atheist at this time last year. I didn't even call upon God on an 'as needed' basis. lol But, God can do remarkable things.


*The power and the sheer love of our Heavenly Father is the absolute strongest thing there is ... or ever will be!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adelais

*Deidre* said:


> I was an atheist at this time last year. I didn't even call upon God on an 'as needed' basis. lol But, God can do remarkable things.


What made you come to believe in a god? or in the God of the Bible?


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## *Deidre*

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> What made you come to believe in a god? or in the God of the Bible?


I was raised with Christianity and left it a few years ago because I didn't feel that the bible was logical. Last year I had what I'd consider to be divine intervention and it caused me to believe again. It changed my whole life and I now see the bible in a new light. I wasn't born again when I followed Christianity the first time but now I am. The experience changed my life and I'm so grateful that Jesus never gave up on me when I identified as an atthiest for a short time. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrazzledSadHusband

I prayed a lot before I gave wife the notice that she either talk to a counselor about her past baggage or I would file for divorce.

I felt there was a peaceful knowing that all would be well, no matter which way things went.

I followed the bible example of if you have issues with someone, you take it to them and discuss it. "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED."

I am currently asking God for a "passionate, uninhibited sex life with my wife" based on this scripture - "You want what you don't have, so you scheme and kill to get it. You are jealous of what others have, but you can't get it, so you fight and wage war to take it away from them. Yet you don't have what you want because you don't ask God for it."

When I pray, I say this - "God, if you can give Sarah a child when she was a old woman, I believe you can touch my wife & give her a desire to be with her husband"


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## *Deidre*

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I prayed a lot before I gave wife the notice that she either talk to a counselor about her past baggage or I would file for divorce.
> 
> I felt there was a peaceful knowing that all would be well, no matter which way things went.
> 
> I followed the bible example of if you have issues with someone, you take it to them and discuss it. "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED."
> 
> I am currently asking God for a "passionate, uninhibited sex life with my wife" based on this scripture - "You want what you don't have, so you scheme and kill to get it. You are jealous of what others have, but you can't get it, so you fight and wage war to take it away from them. Yet you don't have what you want because you don't ask God for it."
> 
> When I pray, I say this - "God, if you can give Sarah a child when she was a old woman, I believe you can touch my wife & give her a desire to be with her husband"


This is beautiful that you ask God for help in this area, and in such a pure way. I'll pray for you both, too.


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## autopilot

I think that some sort of grounding faith helps all relationships. That faith is your core belief system whether it be a religious faith, moral compass, or something else altogether. Relationships with far differing beliefs stand much higher rates of failing than if you share common beliefs.

With that being said, our Christian faith has been our bedrock of our relationship and marriage. I had lost my Christian way and had basically turned to a form of agnosticism whenever my wife and I started our relationship. The cause of my departure in my faith was due to the disconnect I felt in the Biblical teachings, where I was as a divorced man, and the harsh criticism from those "Christians" who ostracized me for being marked with the "D" on my forehead.

I wandered in faithless darkness for several years and questioned the sincerity of those who called themselves Christians but who acted anything but the life called to live in the New Testament. I was bitter and angry at God and Christ for the hypocrisy of scripture and people in general. I really beat myself up over my failed marriage and used the Bible as the biggest weapon of torment and torture.

But, things changed whenever I began viewing the Bible and Christianity through the prism of love and saw the overarching intent of the Bible. We are called to love and to forgive. We are absolutely imperfect human creatures who make mistakes constantly and yet God still loves us even at our worst. Does he hate the sinful state of man? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that we are condemned to our fate. He loves us and has shown us a way to forgiveness and redemption. It's not a "three strikes and you're out" sort of thing. We are covered with His love and mercy if we become Christians. That love and mercy covers "a multitude of sins"...something that I found so comforting in my darkness.

So, I now embrace the fact that I will make mistakes and will fail miserably at times and yet am still saved by His love, grace and mercy. It calls me to have that same forgiveness for others.

Your question about Christianity and divorce is complex on so many levels. I do believe that God hates divorce. It says so in black and white in the Bible. God's intent was that man and woman become one in marriage. So, we are breaking His covenant whenever we divorce. The only caveat for divorce is unfaithfulness. Depending on the version of the Bible, that can be sexual impurity or just a general unfaithfulness to the marriage. It says that remarriage is an adulterous act against our divorced mate. It is in a sense because we have been unfaithful and broken that marriage vow.

However, once broken it cannot be fixed. A new vow can be created but you cannot "unbreak" a vow that has been broken. So, once you've broken that marriage vow by remarriage you do not continue breaking it over and over again. It's broken only once. To divorce a successor spouse would then be to break that vow. 

Divorce is not an unpardonable sin (and neither is adultery). So many people think it is but to think that is so limiting on God's love, mercy and forgiveness. They may not be willing to forgive, but God does forgive.

Sin cannot be "undone". Don't beat yourself up whenever you sin but learn from those mistakes and don't live life as if you can't be forgiven or loved for your past indiscretions. Embrace God's love and forgiveness and be willing to love and forgive yourself. Also, be willing to love and forgive others like he forgives us.

So, divorce is not in God's plan. But, neither was the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden. Divorce and remarriage are part of man's imperfections. But, don't limit God and his saving grace by saying that it is an act that cannot be forgiven.


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## WasDecimated

This is something I have been thinking about lately. 

I firmly believe that Faith/religion would have helped our marriage if my XWW truly had any real faith. I think she pretended to be spiritual, but the truth is, she worshiped only herself. The promises she made to God and me, on the alter, were hollow. If we both had the same level of spiritual commitment, we would be in a much different place now. My parents are still married and have been together for over 50 years. They have told me many times that it was their faith that kept them strong, and together.

My XWW came from a family that didn’t worship regularly. They would show up mostly on the holidays. Church was more of an event for them than actual worship. By contrast, I was raised in a relatively religious Catholic family, went to Catholic schools but switched to Presbyterian about 15 years ago because of the Priest scandal. I always had a deep faith in God and what I would consider, a close spiritual relationship. I had complete trust and faith that he would guide me and my family and protect us from harm. After I discovered my XWW’s cheating, I felt as if I was getting no clear answer from God as far as what to do. I spent over a year confused by his silence. I finally decided to divorce her as she was unremorseful. I clung tightly to my faith for another year. About the time the divorce was final, I had grown disenchanted and began to pull away. I was angry with God because the only thing I ever asked of him was to watch over my family and keep us safe/together. How could he allow this to happen to me and my children? What good could possibly come from all of this destruction? I felt as if he had abandoned me and my children, and all my prayers and faith meant nothing. I felt that if all of my prayers went un-heard then why pray at all. My anger or disbelief with God continues to grow as my XWW’s new life continues to be all wine and roses with virtually no consequences, while I seem to be stuck in an emotional/spiritual rut.

I am now 3 years post-divorce. I don’t attend mass any more. I struggle to have any relationship with God as do my children. My faith in him is severely diminished and there are days when I don’t believe he even exists. Where is my life going spiritually? Sadly, for the first time in my life, I have no idea.


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## autopilot

Decimated said:


> How could he allow this to happen to me and my children?
> 
> My anger or disbelief with God continues to grow as my XWW’s new life continues to be all wine and roses with virtually no consequences, while I seem to be stuck in an emotional/spiritual rut.
> 
> Where is my life going spiritually? Sadly, for the first time in my life, I have no idea.


I applaud you for getting a little of this off your chest. I understand where you are coming from as I felt a lot of anger and emotional turmoil at God, family and friends, and life in general during and after my divorce.

I finally realized that the only way out for me was to work through all my emotional issues and work on improving my own self-esteem. I had to get past the hurt and not continually dwell on what might have been. Once I finally started letting go, I began to feel the sense of relief and purpose in life once again. The bitterness went away and along with it, the heartache.

I spent approximately 3 years in the deep dark pit of despair before finally working myself free from those terrible grips. You can do the same thing. Maybe seek a professional counselor or a friend who you can confide your feelings in. Change your lifestyle by getting new hobbies, seeking out new friendships, exercising more often, reading self-help books, donating your time to service projects (these always make you feel better). Look for the positives in life. But, don't try comparing yourself to your XW or anyone else. Focus on you and your self-improvement.

Good luck in your rejuvenation.


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## *Deidre*

Decimated said:


> This is something I have been thinking about lately.
> 
> I firmly believe that Faith/religion would have helped our marriage if my XWW truly had any real faith. I think she pretended to be spiritual, but the truth is, she worshiped only herself. The promises she made to God and me, on the alter, were hollow. If we both had the same level of spiritual commitment, we would be in a much different place now. My parents are still married and have been together for over 50 years. They have told me many times that it was their faith that kept them strong, and together.
> 
> My XWW came from a family that didn’t worship regularly. They would show up mostly on the holidays. Church was more of an event for them than actual worship. By contrast, I was raised in a relatively religious Catholic family, went to Catholic schools but switched to Presbyterian about 15 years ago because of the Priest scandal. I always had a deep faith in God and what I would consider, a close spiritual relationship. I had complete trust and faith that he would guide me and my family and protect us from harm. After I discovered my XWW’s cheating, I felt as if I was getting no clear answer from God as far as what to do. I spent over a year confused by his silence. I finally decided to divorce her as she was unremorseful. I clung tightly to my faith for another year. About the time the divorce was final, I had grown disenchanted and began to pull away. I was angry with God because the only thing I ever asked of him was to watch over my family and keep us safe/together. How could he allow this to happen to me and my children? What good could possibly come from all of this destruction? I felt as if he had abandoned me and my children, and all my prayers and faith meant nothing. I felt that if all of my prayers went un-heard then why pray at all. My anger or disbelief with God continues to grow as my XWW’s new life continues to be all wine and roses with virtually no consequences, while I seem to be stuck in an emotional/spiritual rut.
> 
> I am now 3 years post-divorce. I don’t attend mass any more. I struggle to have any relationship with God as do my children. My faith in him is severely diminished and there are days when I don’t believe he even exists. Where is my life going spiritually? Sadly, for the first time in my life, I have no idea.


I left the faith completely for a few years, and identified as an atheist for two years. The Bible at one point, didn't seem logical to me, but more over than that...was when I was a Christian before leaving it, I viewed God differently, and viewed myself differently. I used to view God as this 'grantor of wishes' and I was forever unworthy, always asking...pleading...always hoping He'd hear me. I returned to Christianity last year, due to an experience of faith, what I would consider to be Divine Intervention. It has changed my entire life, and I have a peace and joy that is different than this life can ever offer.

So, for you. How do you see God? How do you think God sees you? We often as fallible humans, do our own thing...and then, expect God to go along with it. And when He doesn't...we wonder where He is. Maybe He wonders where we are. You married a woman who didn't have genuine faith. This isn't an impossible thing, some religious people marry unbelievers, but it seems like your faith was important to you. It is hard when faith is important and of value to one person, and the other person is like...meh. 

I heard a really great Christian radio program on the way home, and I'll pass on some of it here to you. Basically, the gist of the host's lecture today was that we are often focused on the world. And not on Jesus. Jesus isn't a grantor of wishes, instead He asks us to take up our crosses and follow Him. He doesn't tell us that He will get rid of our crosses, for we are human. We will suffer, we will have pain. But, if we take up our crosses and follow Him...He will see us through. And when you stay focused on Jesus, your life will be so amazing, you won't even recognize it. It isn't for me to judge your walk with Christ, but it may just take a shift in perspective for you to stop dwelling on your ex-wife, and all she seems to have...and instead dwell on Jesus. Your ex-wife has nothing of lasting value, if she doesn't have God. I believe this. She only has the world, and eventually, the world will let her down. Because that is the world. It's very easy to follow the world, it's very easy to have sex with strangers, or do things that bring us temporal pleasure, but not lasting joy. Life is so much more than temporal pleasure and fleeting happiness. So don't be envious of what she seems to have, for you have so many gifts. So many great blessings...and if you stay focused on Christ, He will show you every single day...those special gifts. Let Him take you to new places, and make you new. 

edit to add, and you might want to join a Bible study...and go back to mass this weekend. I grew up Catholic, and I'm now non-denominational, but go where you feel fed. If it is the Catholic faith, then go to mass. What better time to renew your spiritual vows, than Easter?


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## farsidejunky

I had a pastor, for whom I had much respect, tell me God cared much less about my comfort than he did my character.

Considering challenging times is where character is developed, it made a lot of sense.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## *Deidre*

Agree with that, very much. God will always provide what we need, not necessarily always what we desire.


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## *Deidre*

I heard an interesting message today, and it spoke to me. It was all about how someone may come to you, a loved one...a friend...a coworker...a stranger...and have a 'difficult message.' How you might wish to tune out that difficult message. Well, let's just say, it spoke to me because someone on here yesterday had a 'difficult message.' I dismissed him, and now I think, he meant well. Jesus is all about love and hope, and wanting to give us our best life, here and in the after life. But, He too had some tough messages, and some during His time here, dismissed Him, too. Having sex with my fiance, and we are not yet married...maybe that is the wrong thing to do, as a Christian. Not maybe, it is.

That message today, reminded me of this person yesterday. Who I dismissed. I love my relationship with Christ, but in that love, obedience is required. 

Just my random ramblings for the day.


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## BetrayedDad

I sometimes wish I was a religious person. I'm just not. Every attempt to be just seems so forced and contrived.

I've always been a good person though with very strong moral convictions. I don't need a bible to know right from wrong. 

So what's stops me from being evil? If I don't fear hell or need salvation? I'm not sure but I'm just not wired to be a bad person.

I don't know how I reconcile the two. I just accept my logical mind won't allow me to have faith. I can't accept something I can't prove exists.


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## farsidejunky

Think less about religion, and think more about God.

That is the mistake so many people make in their journey of faith.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## *Deidre*

BetrayedDad said:


> I sometimes wish I was a religious person. I'm just not. Every attempt to be just seems so forced and contrived.
> 
> I've always been a good person though with very strong moral convictions. I don't need a bible to know right from wrong.
> 
> So what's stops me from being evil? If I don't fear hell or need salvation? I'm not sure but I'm just not wired to be a bad person.
> 
> I don't know how I reconcile the two. I just accept my logical mind won't allow me to have faith. I can't accept something I can't prove exists.


I know you what you're feeling, I was an atheist for a time, and I get it. Most people who follow God I'd like to believe would still be 'good' people, if they stopped believing in God.


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## DustyDog

My set of spiritual and religious beliefs and values have expanded my mind, made me more open-minded, allowed me to stay emotionally calm in the face of distressing situations, soothe others if required.

IMO, this has helped me in all areas of life.

My wife's religious background, on the other hand, has led her to have very rigid beliefs in how things should be, and in fact, the belief that "rigid and unbending is good" applies to all her life, not just ethicial/moral values. Therefore, I believe in her case, it's part of why she has few friends, struggles to keep jobs, and IMO, requires a LOT of emotional support from her husband.

So, it depends on what the religion taught you and how you interpret it and whether you continue your own spiritual path beyond the initial stuff you learned as a kid.


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## Kitty08

@deidre- yes it has. I will not go into details but our faith has helped us defeat each and every obstacle. 

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## WasDecimated

Has faith/religion helped my relationship? 

Apparently not. 

I was raised in a pretty religious family and attended Catholic school. I always had a very strong faith in God. After I married, we worshiped together every Sunday as a family. Life was wonderful. The only thing I ever asked from God was to keep my family (wife and kids) together and to keep us safe. I never asked him for anything else. 

After 13 years of marriage, I discovered my XWW was cheating, I still had faith and I still prayed even though my world was falling apart. God was silent. This went on for years until the divorce was final. I felt abandoned by God. For the first time in my life, I stopped praying and going to church completely. In God's eyes, my beautiful family meant nothing. Why should I pray to a God that would ignore my only unselfish request? 

I currently have no relationship with God. I'm not sure if he even exists.

I keep hearing people say that God has something even better in the in store. Nothing he could give me now would be better than what I had.


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## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> Just curious if some of you follow any particular faith/religion or set of spiritual beliefs, and has it helped your relationships? If you were/are struggling in your marriages, do you feel being centered in faith is helping you both to improve the relationship?
> 
> I left Christianity for a few years, and then was an atheist for two years, and then returned to the faith last year...and just wonder if making faith the centerpiece of our relationship will help shield us from some pitfalls?


 My husband and I are both Christians and sharing that makes a massive difference to our marriage. We are on the same path following the same Lord. Having God on our side is amazing. God is all for marriage as I am sure you know. 
MY first husband wasnt a christian and I was determined that if I ever married again I would never consider a man unless he was a committed Christian with integrity and good moral values. 
Divorces among the christians I have known over the last 40 years are rare, unlike the divorces I know of among the non christians I have known.


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## Diana7

Decimated said:


> Has faith/religion helped my relationship?
> 
> Apparently not.
> 
> I was raised in a pretty religious family and attended Catholic school. I always had a very strong faith in God. After I married, we worshiped together every Sunday as a family. Life was wonderful. The only thing I ever asked from God was to keep my family (wife and kids) together and to keep us safe. I never asked him for anything else.
> 
> After 13 years of marriage, I discovered my XWW was cheating, I still had faith and I still prayed even though my world was falling apart. God was silent. This went on for years until the divorce was final. I felt abandoned by God. For the first time in my life, I stopped praying and going to church completely. In God's eyes, my beautiful family meant nothing. Why should I pray to a God that would ignore my only unselfish request?
> 
> I currently have no relationship with God. I'm not sure if he even exists.
> 
> I keep hearing people say that God has something even better in the in store. Nothing he could give me now would be better than what I had.


God cares very much, but we have free will and your wife choose to do the wrong thing. God cant force people to act properly. My first marriage ended in very traumatic circumstances, I never blamed God for it, why would I? He didnt break us up. He hates it when marriages end. 

Ity sad you lost your faith. My advise, find a good friendly church(not RC) and get along there, make friends and chat to God again, He is still very much there. Bad things still happen to us, but He has promised to be with us through these things and bring good out of them. 

BTW my husbands first wife cheated as well, we have been married for 11 years now and God is so good at giving fresh starts and new beginnings.


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## Diana7

autopilot said:


> I think that some sort of grounding faith helps all relationships. That faith is your core belief system whether it be a religious faith, moral compass, or something else altogether. Relationships with far differing beliefs stand much higher rates of failing than if you share common beliefs.
> 
> With that being said, our Christian faith has been our bedrock of our relationship and marriage. I had lost my Christian way and had basically turned to a form of agnosticism whenever my wife and I started our relationship. The cause of my departure in my faith was due to the disconnect I felt in the Biblical teachings, where I was as a divorced man, and the harsh criticism from those "Christians" who ostracized me for being marked with the "D" on my forehead.
> 
> I wandered in faithless darkness for several years and questioned the sincerity of those who called themselves Christians but who acted anything but the life called to live in the New Testament. I was bitter and angry at God and Christ for the hypocrisy of scripture and people in general. I really beat myself up over my failed marriage and used the Bible as the biggest weapon of torment and torture.
> 
> But, things changed whenever I began viewing the Bible and Christianity through the prism of love and saw the overarching intent of the Bible. We are called to love and to forgive. We are absolutely imperfect human creatures who make mistakes constantly and yet God still loves us even at our worst. Does he hate the sinful state of man? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that we are condemned to our fate. He loves us and has shown us a way to forgiveness and redemption. It's not a "three strikes and you're out" sort of thing. We are covered with His love and mercy if we become Christians. That love and mercy covers "a multitude of sins"...something that I found so comforting in my darkness.
> 
> So, I now embrace the fact that I will make mistakes and will fail miserably at times and yet am still saved by His love, grace and mercy. It calls me to have that same forgiveness for others.
> 
> Your question about Christianity and divorce is complex on so many levels. I do believe that God hates divorce. It says so in black and white in the Bible. God's intent was that man and woman become one in marriage. So, we are breaking His covenant whenever we divorce. The only caveat for divorce is unfaithfulness. Depending on the version of the Bible, that can be sexual impurity or just a general unfaithfulness to the marriage. It says that remarriage is an adulterous act against our divorced mate. It is in a sense because we have been unfaithful and broken that marriage vow.
> 
> However, once broken it cannot be fixed. A new vow can be created but you cannot "unbreak" a vow that has been broken. So, once you've broken that marriage vow by remarriage you do not continue breaking it over and over again. It's broken only once. To divorce a successor spouse would then be to break that vow.
> 
> Divorce is not an unpardonable sin (and neither is adultery). So many people think it is but to think that is so limiting on God's love, mercy and forgiveness. They may not be willing to forgive, but God does forgive.
> 
> Sin cannot be "undone". Don't beat yourself up whenever you sin but learn from those mistakes and don't live life as if you can't be forgiven or loved for your past indiscretions. Embrace God's love and forgiveness and be willing to love and forgive yourself. Also, be willing to love and forgive others like he forgives us.
> 
> So, divorce is not in God's plan. But, neither was the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden. Divorce and remarriage are part of man's imperfections. But, don't limit God and his saving grace by saying that it is an act that cannot be forgiven.


 I am fortunate that I have not ever had bad treatment from a Christian because I was previously divorced. The only stupid comment i got after my 23 year marriage traumatically and suddenly ended was 'well divorce isn't that bad'. Weirdly he is now also divorced, so I am sure he has found out now that it is indeed horrible. 
I dont hide it at all and am very open about it. I have heard some who have, they clearly like kicking people when they are down which is sad. 
I am very blessed that God has given me an amazing godly second husband.


----------



## Diana7

Vinnydee said:


> My bisexual wife and I have a non monogamous marriage and had sex with others, alone and in groups. We shared a live in girlfriend for most of our 40+ year marriage and had threesomes with her a few thousand times, even after she got married. In our case, I would say that a lack of faith/religion has helped my relationship because all of my friends and family who are religious are divorced, with most of them divorcing due to their faith which says that if you want to love or have sex with another person, as well as your wife, you must destroy your existing life, hate each other, share custody of the children and sell off your home.
> 
> It could also be that since I do not believe in any god or go to any church, that I am off the grid and left to live my life in a way that makes me and my wife happy. I sure have a much better life than most religious people I know and that seems to piss them off.


I have found the opposite, that hardly any of the christians I have known in my life are divorced, while so many non christians are. What is marriage without faithfulness? Its pointless. You certainly wouldn't 'piss me off' with your life style, nor would it to any genuine christian. I cant think of anything worse than having a husband who couldn't even be bothered to be faithful and keep the promises he made me. Who didnt love or respect me enough to save that intimacy for us alone. I would far rather be single.


----------



## *Deidre*

Diana7 said:


> My husband and I are both Christians and sharing that makes a massive difference to our marriage. We are on the same path following the same Lord. Having God on our side is amazing. God is all for marriage as I am sure you know.
> MY first husband wasnt a christian and I was determined that if I ever married again I would never consider a man unless he was a committed Christian with integrity and good moral values.
> Divorces among the christians I have known over the last 40 years are rare, unlike the divorces I know of among the non christians I have known.


This is beautiful and makes me want to cry reading it. Thank you for sharing it!


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> This is beautiful and makes me want to cry reading it. Thank you for sharing it!


Thank you, God Bless you. :smile2:


----------



## gr8ful1

Absolutely!!! As believing Christians we have the freedom to love each other w/o reservation. About a year ago my wife's personal study in Song of Songs led to an incredible sexual awakening.


----------



## Vinnydee

My wife and I have had a wonderful and happy 44+ years of marriage as Atheist. Much longer than all of our friends and siblings who are religious. Without the ideas and restrictions of religious rules, we have been able to design our own marriage to please us while not harming others.


----------



## Diana7

Vinnydee said:


> My wife and I have had a wonderful and happy 44+ years of marriage as Atheist. Much longer than all of our friends and siblings who are religious. Without the ideas and restrictions of religious rules, we have been able to design our own marriage to please us while not harming others.


My experience is the complete opposite. I only know of one divorce where both were Christians and dozens and dozens where neither were. 
There are no restrictions in a christian marriage, apart from things that would hurt the other spouse and potentially destroy the marriage such as cheating and porn use. Faithfulness and trust are the bedrocks of marriage. 

I love being married to a godly Christian guy. I am far happier than I was married to a non Christian. 

I have to wonder how many you knew of were actually born again believers who pray, read their bibles and go to church. In the uk its rare to have a divorce among christian couples.


----------



## Mr.StrongMan

*Deidre* said:


> Just curious if some of you follow any particular faith/religion or set of spiritual beliefs, and has it helped your relationships? If you were/are struggling in your marriages, do you feel being centered in faith is helping you both to improve the relationship?
> 
> I left Christianity for a few years, and then was an atheist for two years, and then returned to the faith last year...and just wonder if making faith the centerpiece of our relationship will help shield us from some pitfalls?


Good question. And it's not easy for me to answer. 

Many times when I entered prayer privately to try to become a better husband, I would l find my wife becoming argumentative with me. I always found that ironic. Now, if I wanted to be a simple minded "Christian" I would mark that up to spiritual warfare and blame the devil. Who knows why it happened, really.

Just last Sunday my wife told me she is far away from God. It takes a lot for my wife to admit something that is not positive about herself.

All in all, I believe if a couple prayers together and read scripture to together it can really help. Just going to Church doesn't do anything at all. It's just going through the motions. My wife and I go to Church together and our marriage is not well. But I do believe that praying together can make a difference.


----------



## *Deidre*

Mr.StrongMan said:


> Good question. And it's not easy for me to answer.
> 
> Many times when I entered prayer privately to try to become a better husband, I would l find my wife becoming argumentative with me. I always found that ironic. Now, if I wanted to be a simple minded "Christian" I would mark that up to spiritual warfare and blame the devil. Who knows why it happened, really.
> 
> Just last Sunday my wife told me she is far away from God. It takes a lot for my wife to admit something that is not positive about herself.
> 
> All in all, I believe if a couple prayers together and read scripture to together it can really help. Just going to Church doesn't do anything at all. It's just going through the motions. My wife and I go to Church together and our marriage is not well. But I do believe that praying together can make a difference.


Aw, you seem like a kind man.  I think I read one of your threads about your marriage recently, I'm sorry you're going through some tough things right now.


----------



## Personal

*Deidre* said:


> Just curious if some of you follow any particular faith/religion or set of spiritual beliefs, and has it helped your relationships? If you were/are struggling in your marriages, do you feel being centered in faith is helping you both to improve the relationship?
> 
> I left Christianity for a few years, and then was an atheist for two years, and then returned to the faith last year...and just wonder if making faith the centerpiece of our relationship will help shield us from some pitfalls?


My wife and I who have been long term atheists (from before we met), are happily looking forward to celebrating our 18th wedding anniversary this coming May.

Through close to 21 years of being together, we have found that our absence of belief in a deity or deities, combined with also having largely coincident ethics and values has certainly helped to positively develop our relationship.

Sharing the same perspective has also helped as a bulwark against the consternation, anger and vitriol that is sometimes directed towards us by my wife's mother. As a consequence of her not liking the fact, that we are not raising our children in the Roman Catholic faith.

I can also relate that one set of my (long time from before they were married) atheist grandparents, enjoyed a happy 64 year long marriage that only death brought to an end.

Plus as an aside my above mentioned grandmother survived Tuberculosis without faith, as she also survived losing her first marital home to the German Blitz without faith. Likewise without faith my grandfather survived the landings at Normandy on D-Day through to the conquest of Germany, inclusive of being wounded by shrapnel from German rocket artillery.

That said my other grandparents also enjoyed similar marital longevity and happiness that only death brought to a close. Yet they found comfort in sharing the same faith/religion and first met each other at church. With one of them being the child of a couple who played a notable role in growing the Churches of Christ in Australia.

Regardless of having faith or otherwise some people enjoy terrific long lasting marriages, while others have horrid long lasting marriages, or don't have long lasting marriages at all. In Western civilisation, good marriages, bad marriages and divorce are just as common to religious people, as they are to atheists as well.

How your relationship/s work out depend upon you, who you're with and what happens to you both along the way and how you both deal with that along the way. The best you can do, is at the time do the best you can do. If it works out, great! If it doesn't, at least you've tried your best.


----------



## Mr.StrongMan

*Deidre* said:


> Aw, you seem like a kind man.  I think I read one of your threads about your marriage recently, I'm sorry you're going through some tough things right now.


Thanks.


----------



## Ynot

Personal said:


> My wife and I who have been long term atheists (from before we met), are happily looking forward to celebrating our 18th wedding anniversary this coming May.
> 
> Through close to 21 years of being together, we have found that our absence of belief in a deity or deities, combined with also having largely coincident ethics and values has certainly helped to positively develop our relationship.
> 
> Sharing the same perspective has also helped as a bulwark against the consternation, anger and vitriol that is sometimes directed towards us by my wife's mother. As a consequence of her not liking the fact, that we are not raising our children in the Roman Catholic faith.
> 
> I can also relate that one set of my (long time from before they were married) atheist grandparents, enjoyed a happy 64 year long marriage that only death brought to an end.
> 
> Plus as an aside my above mentioned grandmother survived Tuberculosis without faith, as she also survived losing her first marital home to the German Blitz without faith. Likewise without faith my grandfather survived the landings at Normandy on D-Day through to the conquest of Germany, inclusive of being wounded by shrapnel from German rocket artillery.
> 
> That said my other grandparents also enjoyed similar marital longevity and happiness that only death brought to a close. Yet they found comfort in sharing the same faith/religion and first met each other at church. With one of them being the child of a couple who played a notable role in growing the Churches of Christ in Australia.
> 
> Regardless of having faith or otherwise some people enjoy terrific long lasting marriages, while others have horrid long lasting marriages, or don't have long lasting marriages at all. In Western civilisation, good marriages, bad marriages and divorce are just as common to religious people, as they are to atheists as well.
> 
> How your relationship/s work out depend upon you, who you're with and what happens to you both along the way and how you both deal with that along the way. The best you can do, is at the time do the best you can do. If it works out, great! If it doesn't, at least you've tried your best.


Sometimes people confuse the benefit of a shared worldview with the worldview itself. Being a Christian (Muslim, Hindu, whatever insert your belief system here) does not guarantee anything. Having a shared belief in the same thing, though does go a long way towards promoting a LTR that lasts. Two atheists are just as likely to last as two Christians and more so than an atheist/Christian couple would.


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## CuddleBug

*Deidre* said:


> Just curious if some of you follow any particular faith/religion or set of spiritual beliefs, and has it helped your relationships? If you were/are struggling in your marriages, do you feel being centered in faith is helping you both to improve the relationship?
> 
> I left Christianity for a few years, and then was an atheist for two years, and then returned to the faith last year...and just wonder if making faith the centerpiece of our relationship will help shield us from some pitfalls?



When I was young, I went to church because of my parents and the summer camps. I hated it.

As I got older and wiser, I had an awakening and now fully believe in Christ.

Has my faith changed my wife's low sex drive? No.

Has my faith got her to take care of her body? No.

My faith prepares my soul and not my physical body.

Does having faith shield you from life's trials? Not at all.

Faith gives you morals, ethics, how to live your life according to Jesus and God and prepares your soul for the 3rd heaven.

If having faith gave your spouse a super high sex drive, I'm sure most would get faith really fast.:grin2:


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## Hellomynameis

My faith has not saved my marriage but it has definitely helped me cope with the various miseries the failure of the marriage has caused.


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## Diana7

CuddleBug said:


> When I was young, I went to church because of my parents and the summer camps. I hated it.
> 
> As I got older and wiser, I had an awakening and now fully believe in Christ.
> 
> Has my faith changed my wife's low sex drive? No.
> 
> Has my faith got her to take care of her body? No.
> 
> My faith prepares my soul and not my physical body.
> 
> Does having faith shield you from life's trials? Not at all.
> 
> Faith gives you morals, ethics, how to live your life according to Jesus and God and prepares your soul for the 3rd heaven.
> 
> If having faith gave your spouse a super high sex drive, I'm sure most would get faith really fast.:grin2:


Is your wife a Christian also?


----------



## Diana7

Hellomynameis said:


> My faith has not saved my marriage but it has definitely helped me cope with the various miseries the failure of the marriage has caused.



Yes its like having an anchor that holds you tight even when there are storms.:smile2:


----------



## CuddleBug

Diana7 said:


> Is your wife a Christian also?



My wife is neutral on faith. Her mom believes and her dad is an atheist. Our good friends from another unit in our complex are the same. She believes and he is an atheist.


----------



## Diana7

CuddleBug said:


> My wife is neutral on faith. Her mom believes and her dad is an atheist. Our good friends from another unit in our complex are the same. She believes and he is an atheist.


My first husband wasn't a Christian. When my marriage ended I knew that I would not consider dating a man again who didn't share my faith.


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## DustyDog

The more I drift away from traditional Western Beliefs and embrace the open mindset of Eastern Beliefs - the better I get along with everybody, period.

In short:
The focus is on the exact current moment, not the past, and without anxiety toward the future.

And...on forgiveness, not blaming.

Thus, one chooses to divorce not because the other person did something wrong. But because the present moment and situation does not suit one's current preferences in the world, and is unlikely to do so in the future. Bear in mind that since forgiveness and acceptance are huge in Eastern Beliefs, one tends to draw this conclusion only after many years of attempting to increase acceptance and forgiveness and deciding, finally, that the effort is probably consuming too much of your love and compassion, and you'd rather have all that available for a larger part of the human pack.

Just my opinion....


----------



## Hellomynameis

*Re: Has faith/religion helped your relationship?t*



Diana7 said:


> My first husband wasn't a Christian. When my marriage ended I know that I would not consider dating a man again who didn't share my faith.


My husband pulled a religious "bait and switch." He pretended to be a Christian while we were dating - even lied about it to my pastor and our marriage counselor because my church wouldn't have performed the ceremony otherwise.

With the exception of weddings and funerals, he never once stepped foot in a church after our marriage. Tried to prevent me from going. Finally admitted his belief system was somewhere between atheist and agnostic. Last I knew he was practicing Wicca with his GF who is a practicing witch.

I don't honestly intend to ever date again but if I do it will only be men I feel confident are Christians. I hope they won't be able to fool me at 46 the way he did when I was 19.


----------



## Steve1000

*Deidre* said:


> My concern is...that I don't believe in staying in an unhealthy marriage, one with abuse and infidelity, let's say. But, Christianity teaches to turn the other cheek, so I find some of my own personal views difficult to reconcile with my faith.


I'm banking on the fact that we don't live in the bible belt, which has the highest percentage of divorces, will keep us married for at least awhile.  Seriously, I guess that those states have the highest rates of divorce because many of the couples get married earlier in life.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> Well, before I left the faith, I can honestly say I didn't feel 'born again.' Coming back to the faith, largely had to do with the Holy Spirit, and my faith is entirely new now. I'm grateful that I left it though for a time, because as an atheist, I could look at all religions in a more objective way, and coming back to faith, I understand atheism better than I did before. It always seemed mysterious to me, before I 'deconverted.' Faith for many is a journey, for some...they just know. I had to take a journey. My fiance is a Christian, more moderate.
> 
> My concern is...that I don't believe in staying in an unhealthy marriage, one with abuse and infidelity, let's say. But, Christianity teaches to turn the other cheek, so I find some of my own personal views difficult to reconcile with my faith.


Jesus himself allows divorce for sexual immorality, and what loving Father is going to want His children to be sexually of physically abused? Sometimes divorce is better than what is happening.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Has faith/religion helped your relationship?t*



Hellomynameis said:


> My husband pulled a religious "bait and switch." He pretended to be a Christian while we were dating - even lied about it to my pastor and our marriage counselor because my church wouldn't have performed the ceremony otherwise.
> 
> With the exception of weddings and funerals, he never once stepped foot in a church after our marriage. Tried to prevent me from going. Finally admitted his belief system was somewhere between atheist and agnostic. Last I knew he was practicing Wicca with his GF who is a practicing witch.
> 
> I don't honestly intend to ever date again but if I do it will only be men I feel confident are Christians. I hope they won't be able to fool me at 46 the way he did when I was 19.


 There are ways. Does he pray? Does he ask that you pray together? Is he involved in a church? Attend midweek meetings? Read his bible? Help out at church in a ministry? How does he treat people? Has he got Christian friends? If so talk to them ánd spend time with them.See what they say about him.
Has he got strong moral values? Does he want to have sex outside marriage? Is he honest? Does he have integrity? Does he watch porn? Does he put God first?


----------



## GTdad

I guess faith has helped our relationship. God knows why we are still together.

I mean that quite literally. After 33 years, it's sure tough to explain any other way.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Deidre* said:


> I heard an interesting message today, and it spoke to me. It was all about how someone may come to you, a loved one...a friend...a coworker...a stranger...and have a 'difficult message.' How you might wish to tune out that difficult message. Well, let's just say, it spoke to me because someone on here yesterday had a 'difficult message.' I dismissed him, and now I think, he meant well. Jesus is all about love and hope, and wanting to give us our best life, here and in the after life. But, He too had some tough messages, and some during His time here, dismissed Him, too. Having sex with my fiance, and we are not yet married...maybe that is the wrong thing to do, as a Christian. Not maybe, it is.
> 
> That message today, reminded me of this person yesterday. Who I dismissed. I love my relationship with Christ, but in that love, obedience is required.
> 
> Just my random ramblings for the day.


I've always enjoyed Proverbs... there is one about listening to our critics.. it takes some self awareness to do this, it may take a day or two.. but if we're in-tuned and open, it's something we won't be able to lay down.. till we make "peace" with it, and our God...this is the scripture I was thinking of...


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

This is a message that I have listened to many times. I was so angry with how my wife treated me. The forgiveness is really to heal yourself. Put the issue in God's hands and believe that he will handle it.


----------



## ScottishGirl1998

I was raised a Christian, but didn't take it too seriously until a couple of years ago when my then-boyfriend and I started attending church (where we later got married) and have been very religious ever since. 

One thing I'll never do is force my beliefs onto others though, nor do I treat anybody differently because of their religion. 

For us personally though, it is the centre of our lives and always will be.


----------



## Diana7

ScottishGirl1998 said:


> I was raised a Christian, but didn't take it too seriously until a couple of years ago when my then-boyfriend and I started attending church (where we later got married) and have been very religious ever since.
> 
> One thing I'll never do is force my beliefs onto others though, nor do I treat anybody differently because of their religion.
> 
> For us personally though, it is the centre of our lives and always will be.


We cant force anyone to believe in God, but we can use opportunities to talk about our faith if someone is open to that.


----------



## Diana7

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> This is a message that I have listened to many times. I was so angry with how my wife treated me. The forgiveness is really to heal yourself. Put the issue in God's hands and believe that he will handle it.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qng2BBXOMx4


Forgiveness is vital for our well being, or we will end up full of resentment, anger and bitterness and will get mentally and physically ill.


----------



## ScottishGirl1998

Diana7 said:


> We cant force anyone to believe in God, but we can use opportunities to talk about our faith if someone is open to that.


Oh yes, you are absolutely right in that respect.


----------



## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Oh, this is really a heartfelt post, thank you. I believe that a miracle did happen last year to me...I had an experience of faith, when I was an atheist. I had let go completely of Jesus and the idea of a deity existing. I wasn't angry, just indifferent over time. And out of nowhere, this happened. And it changed my life. I grew up Catholic, and while there is much beauty in the RCC, it doesn't seem to focus enough on being born again, which Jesus spoke of. And when you feel it, you will just know. It can be challenging at times to 'be like' Jesus. But, that's what the faith calls believers to do.


Can I ask what the miracle was? I never had any miracles happen to me so just curious what they are like.


----------



## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Just curious if some of you follow any particular faith/religion or set of spiritual beliefs, and has it helped your relationships? If you were/are struggling in your marriages, do you feel being centered in faith is helping you both to improve the relationship?
> 
> I left Christianity for a few years, and then was an atheist for two years, and then returned to the faith last year...and just wonder if making faith the centerpiece of our relationship will help shield us from some pitfalls?


I am quite interested in this topic and was surprised to find that data actually points to lower divorce rates amongst atheists:

Atheist marriages may last longer than Christian ones - Salon.com

"When I was young, a slogan made its way around my church: The family that prays together stays together. Tom Ellis, former chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Council on the Family boldly claimed that “born-again Christian couples who marry…in the church after having received premarital counseling…and attend church regularly and pray daily together… experience only 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000 marriages.”

But then came data. According to research by the Barna Research Group over a decade ago, American *divorce rates were highest among Baptists and nondenominational “Bible-believing” Christians and lower among more theologically liberal Christians like Methodists, with atheists at the bottom of the divorce pack. *When the findings were made public, George Barna took some heat because Christians expected the difference to be more dramatic and to favor believers. Ellis suggested that maybe Barna had sampled badly. Perhaps some people who called themselves born again had never really devoted their lives to Christ. But Barna held his ground, saying, “We rarely find substantial differences” [in the moral behavior of Christians and non-Christians]."


----------



## 269370

I should disclose that me and my wife seem to be missing the "faith gene". We have been together for almost 20 years (married for 10). We met when we were 16 and did not really have any other partners previously.
I think we would make a great Christian couple if only we could get ourselves to believe the unbelievable.
I don't see any signs that there's anyone watching over us. I don't deny a possibility of higher possible intelligence but certainly cannot reconcile a caring/prayer-answering, omniscient/omnipotent god that is portrayed in the holy texts with the reality we see around us. 

I am very curious how people come to believe things for which there is no evidence. We often experience the feeling of awe and the mystery of the universe/world we live in (and how little we still know about it). However there does not seem to be a reason for us to think that anyone cares about us personally (or has a "plan" etc). The events just don't bear this out. We can live in hope of course and we respect others who do think differently but I believe you can have a perfectly functioning moral compass without religions.

I am keen at exploring the Eastern religions though. However they are more like philosophies rather than religions.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I am quite interested in this topic and was surprised to find that data actually points to lower divorce rates amongst atheists:
> 
> Atheist marriages may last longer than Christian ones - Salon.com
> 
> "When I was young, a slogan made its way around my church: The family that prays together stays together. Tom Ellis, former chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Council on the Family boldly claimed that “born-again Christian couples who marry…in the church after having received premarital counseling…and attend church regularly and pray daily together… experience only 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000 marriages.”
> 
> But then came data. According to research by the Barna Research Group over a decade ago, American *divorce rates were highest among Baptists and nondenominational “Bible-believing” Christians and lower among more theologically liberal Christians like Methodists, with atheists at the bottom of the divorce pack. *When the findings were made public, George Barna took some heat because Christians expected the difference to be more dramatic and to favor believers. Ellis suggested that maybe Barna had sampled badly. Perhaps some people who called themselves born again had never really devoted their lives to Christ. But Barna held his ground, saying, “We rarely find substantial differences” [in the moral behavior of Christians and non-Christians]."


Actually I have heard the opposite, that marriages where both go to church are far less likely to end in divorce as are marriages where the couple didnt live together first. Of all the countless divorces I have known of, nearly all were between non Christians.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I should disclose that me and my wife seem to be missing the "faith gene". We have been together for almost 20 years (married for 10). We met when we were 16 and did not really have any other partners previously.
> I think we would make a great Christian couple if only we could get ourselves to believe the unbelievable.
> I don't see any signs that there's anyone watching over us. I don't deny a possibility of higher possible intelligence but certainly cannot reconcile a caring/prayer-answering, omniscient/omnipotent god that is portrayed in the holy texts with the reality we see around us.
> 
> I am very curious how people come to believe things for which there is no evidence. We often experience the feeling of awe and the mystery of the universe/world we live in (and how little we still know about it). However there does not seem to be a reason for us to think that anyone cares about us personally (or has a "plan" etc). The events just don't bear this out. We can live in hope of course and we respect others who do think differently but I believe you can have a perfectly functioning moral compass without religions.
> 
> I am keen at exploring the Eastern religions though. However they are more like philosophies rather than religions.


Read the NT, especially the gospel of John in a modern translation. Chat to God(you dont need to be formal)and just be honest with Him. Tell him that you would love to believe but that you struggle to believe. Ask Him to make Himself known to you. Many churches do courses such as 'alpha' where those who are interested or seeking can go along and find out more, and talk to others who can tell you about their own faith.
Honestly, I have seen lives dramatically changed, I know people who have been dramatically healed, who have been set free from addictions and mental illness.Those who were heavily into crime who are now following Jesus Christ. 
I have never regretted for a second that I made this decision. 

My husband is a very intelligent man. A doctor, scientist, healthcare researcher, and also a qualified accountant. He is also highly logical. He also has one of the strongest faiths I have ever known in a person, and a very close relationship with his Dad as he calls Him. :smile2:


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> Actually I have heard the opposite, that marriages where both go to church are far less likely to end in divorce as are marriages where the couple didnt live together first. Of all the countless divorces I have known of, nearly all were between non Christians.


Can you quantify "countless"? I would expect to agree with you however it's not the way statistics work. The studies referenced in the article involve tens of thousands of couples from various religious/non-religious denominations, conducted over decades. I wonder why you feel it is reasonable to disagree based on hearsay rather than statistical facts.

It's worth it reading the whole article.

_The reality, however, appears complex. Churches do honor and support marriage. They also may inadvertently promote divorce, especially—ironically—those churches which most bill themselves as shining lights in a dark world.

To prevent that greatest-of-all-evils, abortion, such communities teach even high school students to embrace surprise pregnancies as gifts from God. *They encourage members to marry young so they won’t be tempted to fornicate. But women who give birth or marry young tend to end up less educated and less financially secure, both of which are correlated with higher divorce rates.*

*Secular couples tend to see both marriage and divorce as personal choices. Overall, a lower percent get married, which means that those who do may be particularly committed or well-suited to partnership. They are likely to be older if/when they do formally tie the knot. They have fewer babies, and their babies are more likely to be planned. Parenting, like other household responsibilities, is more likely to be egalitarian rather than based on the traditional model of “male headship.” Each of these factors could play a role in the divorce rate.*
_


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## txryan

God has really done some work 🏢 on my wife and mines relationship. It's really a blessing that Shauna and I are going to be married 💑 for 11 years this September!


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> My husband is a very intelligent man. A doctor, scientist, healthcare researcher, and also a qualified accountant. He is also highly logical. He also has one of the strongest faiths I have ever known in a person, and a very close relationship with his Dad as he calls Him. :smile2:


Do you feel your faith is rooted in the fact that your husbands' faith is strong? It seems people often change their beliefs depending on who they are with at the time (it seems to play a big part).
I know of only very few scientists who also have faith (in the biblical god). As soon as you approach the subject logically, it really does tend to fall apart...There must be an emotion involved that switches something in the brain (which I seem to be lacking).


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Do you feel your faith is rooted in the fact that your husbands' faith is strong? It seems people often change their beliefs depending on who they are with at the time (it seems to play a big part).
> I know of only very few scientists who also have faith (in the biblical god). As soon as you approach the subject logically, it really does tend to fall apart...There must be an emotion involved that switches something in the brain (which I seem to be lacking).


It really doesn't fall apart, and we know several scientists and doctors who have a very strong faith. 

When we met I had been a christian for about 30 years, so no its not his faith that keeps me going, my faith was strong before that.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> It really doesn't fall apart, and we know several scientists and doctors who have a very strong faith.
> 
> When we met I had been a christian for about 30 years, so no its not his faith that keeps me going, my faith was strong before that.


Then why do you mention your husband's belief and the fact that he is a scientist & logical I wonder. My problem with belief is not so much the belief itself but the fact that many chose to believe things without having examined them themselves properly and relying on hearsay or others to "guide" them. The danger with giving up critical thinking is that we could end up believing all kinds of things that might inadvertently harm us or the ones around us (for example belief in the idea that vaccinating children could make the children autistic - there are some who believe it even though studies have refuted these claims beyond doubt). Or, on the much smaller scale, that having faith strengthens a marriage event hough studies show that there is no correlation (or even untrue).
Or, choosing to believe that heaven is real, this world is too evil and 72 virgins await you in paradise if you sacrifice your life for a greater good and follow god's wishes...You see where this can go wrong.


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> I am quite interested in this topic and was surprised to find that data actually points to lower divorce rates amongst atheists:
> 
> Atheist marriages may last longer than Christian ones - Salon.com
> 
> "When I was young, a slogan made its way around my church: The family that prays together stays together. Tom Ellis, former chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Council on the Family boldly claimed that “born-again Christian couples who marry…in the church after having received premarital counseling…and attend church regularly and pray daily together… experience only 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000 marriages.”
> 
> But then came data. According to research by the Barna Research Group over a decade ago, American *divorce rates were highest among Baptists and nondenominational “Bible-believing” Christians and lower among more theologically liberal Christians like Methodists, with atheists at the bottom of the divorce pack. *When the findings were made public, George Barna took some heat because Christians expected the difference to be more dramatic and to favor believers. Ellis suggested that maybe Barna had sampled badly. Perhaps some people who called themselves born again had never really devoted their lives to Christ. But Barna held his ground, saying, “We rarely find substantial differences” [in the moral behavior of Christians and non-Christians]."


I have a few Christian friends who rushed into marriage, and I don't think that's uncommon for some Christians. They feel it's ''God's calling'' and so they rush things. I follow Christianity, but I don't believe that God selects one special person who is your soul mate, etc. I believe that is a person's wishful thinking, honestly. I do believe though in praying before you marry someone, before you consider marrying them, as to if this could be the right situation for your life.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Then why do you mention your husband's belief and the fact that he is a scientist & logical I wonder. My problem with belief is not so much the belief itself but the fact that many chose to believe things without having examined them themselves properly and relying on hearsay or others to "guide" them. The danger with giving up critical thinking is that we could end up believing all kinds of things that might inadvertently harm us or the ones around us (for example belief in the idea that vaccinating children could make the children autistic - there are some who believe it even though studies have refuted these claims beyond doubt). Or, on the much smaller scale, that having faith strengthens a marriage event hough studies show that there is no correlation (or even untrue).
> Or, choosing to believe that heaven is real, this world is too evil and 72 virgins await you in paradise if you sacrifice your life for a greater good and follow god's wishes...You see where this can go wrong.


The years that I have been following Jesus Christ have taught me that Gods guidance and ways are aways for our own good. 
We have free will, and can choose to act how we like but there are always consequences. 
I have never relied on others to guide me. I have had very long periods away from church where I wasnt at all influenced by others, and it was just me and God. I am also a critical thinker, I test things said and taught and never accept things at face value. 
My christian faith has never harmed me or anyone round me, on the contrary has helped me and those around me. I hope it has made me a better more kind person. It has helped me get though some truly terrible times and come out stronger. 
The radical muslims have these awful ideas that if they kill and maim and torture they will be rewarded. What sort of god do they think would do that!! We are told to forgive those who hurt us, love and pray for our enemies, the complete opposite.


----------



## *Deidre*

Diana7 said:


> The years that I have been following Jesus Christ have taught me that Gods guidance and ways are aways for our own good.
> We have free will, and can choose to act how we like but there are always consequences.
> I have never relied on others to guide me. I have had very long periods away from church where I wasnt at all influenced by others, and it was just me and God. I am also a critical thinker, I test things said and taught and never accept things at face value.
> My christian faith has never harmed me or anyone round me, on the contrary has helped me and those around me. I hope it has made me a better more kind person. It has helped me get though some truly terrible times and come out stronger.
> The radical muslims have these awful ideas that if they kill and maim and torture they will be rewarded. What sort of god do they think would do that!! We are told to forgive those who hurt us, love and pray for our enemies, the complete opposite.


I agree, my faith has been my strength. I left the faith for a few years, and identified as an atheist for a few of those years. It was a lonely, dark time then, at least for me, without faith. My fiance and his family are Christians, but he is more on the moderate side. 

I have read that couples where one is religious and the other is atheist, have the strongest marriages lol Idk why that might be, I've always thought it might be hard to be married to someone who doesn't share your overall worldview.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> I agree, my faith has been my strength. I left the faith for a few years, and identified as an atheist for a few of those years. It was a lonely, dark time then, at least for me, without faith. My fiance and his family are Christians, but he is more on the moderate side.
> 
> I have read that couples where one is religious and the other is atheist, have the strongest marriages lol Idk why that might be, I've always thought it might be hard to be married to someone who doesn't share your overall worldview.


I am glad (and slightly envious) to read about people deriving strength from faith. 
Personally, I find it hard to reconcile reality I see around me with the idea of a personal god. I was speaking about it with my wife today (who has the same views as me, except she is not trying to get into other people's brains as hard as I do when it comes to those things) and for me, in order to make myself believe something for which there is no evidence whatsoever, would involve a lot of mental acrobatics I am not sure I am capable of performing. As soon as I open the bible and start reading it, very little makes any sense at all. People say that anything that happens is god's plan or that he's testing your beliefs when hardship strikes, it's easy to go about life thinking like this. Does it make it true though?
How is it for anyone's good to take away lives of millions of children who die for no apparent reason from diseases or natural disasters (where the "free will" argument doesn't work, sadly). We can console ourselves that they end up in a better place and that we will see our loved ones after we die. It's comforting. Does it make it true just because some others share the same belief?

I wonder what is the miracle that you encountered during your "atheist" time out that made you change your mind? 

I always tried living my life deriving strength from within yourself, without outside influences. It's not easy but I feel I am being truthful to myself.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> The years that I have been following Jesus Christ have taught me that Gods guidance and ways are aways for our own good.
> We have free will, and can choose to act how we like but there are always consequences.
> I have never relied on others to guide me. I have had very long periods away from church where I wasnt at all influenced by others, and it was just me and God. I am also a critical thinker, I test things said and taught and never accept things at face value.
> My christian faith has never harmed me or anyone round me, on the contrary has helped me and those around me. I hope it has made me a better more kind person. It has helped me get though some truly terrible times and come out stronger.
> The radical muslims have these awful ideas that if they kill and maim and torture they will be rewarded. What sort of god do they think would do that!!


Could it be related to any of the things that "our" god did by any chance?

_1) Sending Bears to Murder Children
So a guy named Eliseus was traveling to Bethel when a bunch of kids popped up and made fun of him for being bald. That had to suck, and you can't blame Eliseus for being pissed and cursing them to God. But God had Eliseus' back, by which I mean he sent two bears to maul 42 of these kids to death. For making fun of a bald dude. I have to think Eliseus was looking for something along the lines of a spanking, or maybe the poetic justice of having the kids go bald, but nope, God went straight for the bear murder. But on the plus side, that pile of 40+ children's corpses never made fun of anybody again. (4 Kings 2:23-24)

2) Turning Lot's Wife to Salt
Most folks know about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, two cities of sin God decided to kill everyone in instead of, you know, making them*not*full of sin. But this was a town that, when two angels were staying at Lot's place, gathered en masse and asked if they could rape them. I repeat:*They wanted to rape angels. So they kind of had their destruction coming. Lot and his family were sent from the city before things went down, and Lot's wife looked back, and God turned her into a pillar of salt. It's generally understood that Lot's wife was looking back in a wistful kind of way at her angel-raping hometown, but the fact is there's nothing in the Bible to suggest this. Nor was Lot's family warned about looking back. Maybe Lot's wife wanted to see Sodom and Gomorrah get what was coming to it. Maybe she was thinking wistfully of the things she had to leave behind. Maybe she wondered if she had left the oven on. We'll never know, because God turned her into seasoning for breaking a rule she didn't know existed. (Genesis 19:26)

3) Hating Ugly People
In what should be good news for intolerant religious conservatives, God really does hate people who are different from the norm. Of course, God isn't as worried about skin color or sexual orientation as he is about whether you're ugly or not. Because if you're ugly, you can just go worship some other god, okay? (Even though God will punish you if you do and also they don't exist.) Here's the people God does not want coming into his churches: People with blemishes, blind people, the lame, those with flat noses, dwarves, people with scurvy, people with bad eyes, people with bad skin, and those that "hath their stones broken." Given that God is technically responsible for giving people all of these afflictions in the first place, this is an enormous **** move. (Leviticus 21:17-24)

4) Trying to Kill Moses
In terms of people who God likes, you'd think Moses would be pretty high up on the list, right? I mean, God appointed him to lead the Jews out of Egypt, parted the Red Sea for him, and even picked him to receive the 10 Commandments, right? Yet this didn't stop God from trying to kill Moses when he ran into him at "a lodging place." There is literally no explanation given in the Bible for God's decision to murder one of his chief supporters. The line is "At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses and was about to kill him." The only sensible explanation for this is that God was drunk out of his mind and looking for a bar fight, and you better hope that's correct because the alternative is that God's a psychopath. How was God stopped from murdering his #1 fan? "But [Moses' wife] Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it ... So the Lord let him alone." Either the sight of a very unexpected circumcision sobered God up quickly, or he didn't want to touch a dude who just touched a severed foreskin. Still, it's Moses' son who's the real victim here. (Exodus 4:24-26)

5) Committing So Much Genocide
God has killed so many people, you guys. Okay, I mean technically, God has killed*everyone*if you subscribe to Judeo-Christian thought, but I'm not talking about indirect methods, I'm talking about God murdering countless people in horrible ways simply because he's pissed off. God drowning every single person on the planet besides Noah and his family is pretty well known, but he also helped the Israelites murder everyone in Jericho, Heshbon, Bashan and many more, usually killing women, children and animals at the same time. Hell, God once helped some Israelites kill 500,000 other Israelites. God's*crazy.

6) Ordering His Underlings to Kill Their Own Children
God is obviously good at big picture ****ishness, but he also took the time to be a **** on a more personal level. Abraham was another devout man God decided to **** with, apparently because he knew he could. God ordered him to sacrifice his son to God (God was a fan of human sacrifice at the time). We know Abraham loved his son, so he was probably kind of upset with this, but hey, God's God. So Abraham tricked his unsuspecting son up a mountain onto a sacrificial altar and prepared to murder him. This story actually has a happy ending, in that right before Abraham drove a knife into his son's throat, God yelled "Psych!" and told him it was only a test. And then Abraham received some blessings after that for being willing to kill his own child at God's whim. And all it took was the dread of being forced to kill his own child on behalf of his angry deity and, presumably, a ****-ton of awkward family dinners for the rest of his life. Abraham got off better than Jephthah, who had to follow through with murdering his daughter (burning her alive, specifically) in order to get on God's good side before battling the Ammonites. (Genesis 22:1-12)

7) Killing Egyptian Babies
Let's be completely up front: The Egyptians and the Jews did not get along. According to the Bible, the Egyptians enslaved the Jews, but the Jews had God on their side, if you kind of ignore God letting his people be enslaved in the first place. Rather getting his worshippers the hell out of there, God wanted to show those damned Egyptians what for, releasing 10 plagues that began with turning the river Nile into pure blood, and ending with the slaughter of the first-born of every single Egyptian man and animal. Now, I suppose it's possible that some, or even most of these first-borns were adults who were ****ty to the Israelites. But some of them were babies who didn't even have the*time*to persecute the Jews yet. And what the hell did the animals do to the Jews to get caught up in this nightmare? You realize there were cats in Egypt, right? Cats who had first-borns?*God killed kittens. (Numbers 16:41-49)

8) Killing a Dude for Not Making More Babies
So you're a dude named Onan and you have a brother named Er. God does not care for Er, and kills him. Standard God operating procedure. Then things gets weird. Onan's dad orders Onan to have sex with Er's wife — not marry, by the way, just have sex with. This is actually pretty awkward for Onan, sleeping with his sister-in-law, and rather than give her any more kids (she had two with Er already) he pulls out. God is so infuriated that Onan did not **** his sister-in-law to completion that he kills him, too. Now, you could argue that God demands that intercourse be used specifically for procreation, but given how much God loves killing babies and children, I don't think his motives here are exceptionally pure. (Genesis 38:1-10)

9) Helping Samson Murder People to Pay Off a Bet
More evidence that God is possibly a low-level mobster: When his pal Samson got married, he was given 30 friends, and he posed them (a completely insane) riddle. Then he made a bet that if they could solve it in a week, Samson would give them all new clothes, but if they couldn't they would give Samson 30 pairs of new clothes. Well, Samson's wife wheedled the answer out of him and then told these dudes, at which point an angry Samson had to pay up. And here's where God comes in — literally, into Samson, giving him the power to murder 30 random people for their clothes. Only a true friend would help you commit mass murder to settle a completely stupid bet. (Judges 14:1-19)

10) Trying to Wrestle a Guy, Cheating, and Still Losing
And here's more evidence that God is a drunk maniac: Jacob was traveling with his two wives, his 11 kids, and all his earthly possessions and had sent them across a river. At that moment, a guy essentially leapt out of the bushes and started wrestling. It's God! They wrestle all night, and God cannot beat Jacob, so he uses his magic God powers to wrench Jacob's hip out of its socket. But Jacob*still*won't let him out of a headlock until God blesses him, because Jacob has figured out who this bizarre man is. God blesses him and wanders off, presumably to go get in a bar fight somewhere. (Genesis 32: 22-31)

11) Killing People for Complaining About God Killing Them
To be fair, after God freed the Israelites from Egyptian slavery, they were extraordinarily *****y about not instantly being in a land of milk and honey. It got so bad that God was ready to kill all of them and let Moses start the Jews over, although Moses managed to talk him out of it. But one of their more sensible complaints was that Moses was lording himself over the rest of them, which was probably true, seeing as God had given him the 10 Commandments and all that. So Moses summoned the three tribal elders who had made the complaint to a Monday morning staff meeting, but two of them didn't come. Neither Moses nor God cared for that, and God opened up the grounds beneath their people's tents, killing both tribes (God also set fire to 250 Israelite princes who'd made the same complaint). Having been well admonished that Moses was putting himself above the rest of the people with God's permission, a number of surviving Israelites were kind of pissed that Moses and God had killed so many of their fellow people to prove a point. God responded by killing another 14,700 of them with a plague. The complaints stopped. (Numbers 16:1-49)

12) Everything He Did to Job
Oh, Job. Other than a ****-ton of babies, no one had it worse in the Bible than Job, who was a righteous, good-hearted man who believed in God with every fiber in his being — which is when God decides to see how miserable he can make this dude before he gets upset. Note: This is a result of a bet between God and Satan. Also note: The bet is God's idea. He's literally just hanging out with Satan — which is kinda weird when you think about it — when he started bragging about how awesome Job is. Satan points out that Job's pretty blessed — he's rich, he's got a lot of kids, etc., and he probably wouldn't be quite so thrilled with God if he didn't have that stuff. God downs his bourbon, presumably, and tells Satan he can mess with Job all he wants. Satan does. He kills all of Job's children and animals, burns down his house, destroys his wealth, and then covers him in boils. Job doesn't curse God, but he does wish he'd never been born (literally) and begs God to kill him, but no dice. This lasts a long time until finally Job wonders why a just God would be so cruel. This is when God pops up and basically tells him, "Shut up, I don't have to explain anything to you." Job, having finally done something wrong, pleads for mercy, and God eventually gives him back animals and children — new ones, because the old ones are still dead. Because of a bet. That God made with Satan. For kicks. (Job 1)_

http://www.alternet.org/12-craziest-most-awful-things-god-did-old-testament


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> I am glad (and slightly envious) to read about people deriving strength from faith.
> Personally, I find it hard to reconcile reality I see around me with the idea of a personal god. I was speaking about it with my wife today (who has the same views as me, except she is not trying to get into other people's brains as hard as I do when it comes to those things) and for me, in order to make myself believe something for which there is no evidence whatsoever, would involve a lot of mental acrobatics I am not sure I am capable of performing. As soon as I open the bible and start reading it, very little makes any sense at all. People say that anything that happens is god's plan or that he's testing your beliefs when hardship strikes, it's easy to go about life thinking like this. Does it make it true though?
> How is it for anyone's good to take away lives of millions of children who die for no apparent reason from diseases or natural disasters (where the "free will" argument doesn't work, sadly). We can console ourselves that they end up in a better place and that we will see our loved ones after we die. It's comforting. Does it make it true just because some others share the same belief?
> 
> I wonder what is the miracle that you encountered during your "atheist" time out that made you change your mind?
> 
> I always tried living my life deriving strength from within yourself, without outside influences. It's not easy but I feel I am being truthful to myself.


That's the important thing, I think, is to be true to who you are. I didn't make a very good atheist lol I felt lost, empty. That's just my experience. Perhaps I felt that way because I was raised in a Christian household, and to walk away from it all for a few years, felt strange, to be honest. But, I didn't come back to faith on my own, I had an experience of faith. It led me back. I understand what you're saying here, faith should be more than a security blanket, or something to comfort us when things get tough. But, I can't judge others' faith or even lack of faith. We're all on a journey and we find what works for us, I guess. 

My experience of faith was the holy spirit. I ended up coming back to Christianity from the experience. I hear you about the Bible, I don't take it all literally. I'm not a fundamentalist, and honestly don't go to church regularly. But, my faith is my own, now...It's not just something handed down to me from my upbringing. My relationship with Jesus is personal, my own. The Bible can ''teach'' one about the faith, but the Bible can't ''teach'' faith. I think as much as we can read a holy text about faith, we also have to experience it. 

I think it's interesting that you envy people who have faith. Do you wish that you had faith? I appreciate your post here, and look forward to your reply.


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Could it be related to any of the things that "our" god did by any chance?
> 
> _1) Sending Bears to Murder Children
> So a guy named Eliseus was traveling to Bethel when a bunch of kids popped up and made fun of him for being bald. That had to suck, and you can't blame Eliseus for being pissed and cursing them to God. But God had Eliseus' back, by which I mean he sent two bears to maul 42 of these kids to death. For making fun of a bald dude. I have to think Eliseus was looking for something along the lines of a spanking, or maybe the poetic justice of having the kids go bald, but nope, God went straight for the bear murder. But on the plus side, that pile of 40+ children's corpses never made fun of anybody again. (4 Kings 2:23-24)
> 
> 2) Turning Lot's Wife to Salt
> Most folks know about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, two cities of sin God decided to kill everyone in instead of, you know, making them*not*full of sin. But this was a town that, when two angels were staying at Lot's place, gathered en masse and asked if they could rape them. I repeat:*They wanted to rape angels. So they kind of had their destruction coming. Lot and his family were sent from the city before things went down, and Lot's wife looked back, and God turned her into a pillar of salt. It's generally understood that Lot's wife was looking back in a wistful kind of way at her angel-raping hometown, but the fact is there's nothing in the Bible to suggest this. Nor was Lot's family warned about looking back. Maybe Lot's wife wanted to see Sodom and Gomorrah get what was coming to it. Maybe she was thinking wistfully of the things she had to leave behind. Maybe she wondered if she had left the oven on. We'll never know, because God turned her into seasoning for breaking a rule she didn't know existed. (Genesis 19:26)
> 
> 3) Hating Ugly People
> In what should be good news for intolerant religious conservatives, God really does hate people who are different from the norm. Of course, God isn't as worried about skin color or sexual orientation as he is about whether you're ugly or not. Because if you're ugly, you can just go worship some other god, okay? (Even though God will punish you if you do and also they don't exist.) Here's the people God does not want coming into his churches: People with blemishes, blind people, the lame, those with flat noses, dwarves, people with scurvy, people with bad eyes, people with bad skin, and those that "hath their stones broken." Given that God is technically responsible for giving people all of these afflictions in the first place, this is an enormous **** move. (Leviticus 21:17-24)
> 
> 4) Trying to Kill Moses
> In terms of people who God likes, you'd think Moses would be pretty high up on the list, right? I mean, God appointed him to lead the Jews out of Egypt, parted the Red Sea for him, and even picked him to receive the 10 Commandments, right? Yet this didn't stop God from trying to kill Moses when he ran into him at "a lodging place." There is literally no explanation given in the Bible for God's decision to murder one of his chief supporters. The line is "At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses and was about to kill him." The only sensible explanation for this is that God was drunk out of his mind and looking for a bar fight, and you better hope that's correct because the alternative is that God's a psychopath. How was God stopped from murdering his #1 fan? "But [Moses' wife] Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it ... So the Lord let him alone." Either the sight of a very unexpected circumcision sobered God up quickly, or he didn't want to touch a dude who just touched a severed foreskin. Still, it's Moses' son who's the real victim here. (Exodus 4:24-26)
> 
> 5) Committing So Much Genocide
> God has killed so many people, you guys. Okay, I mean technically, God has killed*everyone*if you subscribe to Judeo-Christian thought, but I'm not talking about indirect methods, I'm talking about God murdering countless people in horrible ways simply because he's pissed off. God drowning every single person on the planet besides Noah and his family is pretty well known, but he also helped the Israelites murder everyone in Jericho, Heshbon, Bashan and many more, usually killing women, children and animals at the same time. Hell, God once helped some Israelites kill 500,000 other Israelites. God's*crazy.
> 
> 6) Ordering His Underlings to Kill Their Own Children
> God is obviously good at big picture ****ishness, but he also took the time to be a **** on a more personal level. Abraham was another devout man God decided to **** with, apparently because he knew he could. God ordered him to sacrifice his son to God (God was a fan of human sacrifice at the time). We know Abraham loved his son, so he was probably kind of upset with this, but hey, God's God. So Abraham tricked his unsuspecting son up a mountain onto a sacrificial altar and prepared to murder him. This story actually has a happy ending, in that right before Abraham drove a knife into his son's throat, God yelled "Psych!" and told him it was only a test. And then Abraham received some blessings after that for being willing to kill his own child at God's whim. And all it took was the dread of being forced to kill his own child on behalf of his angry deity and, presumably, a ****-ton of awkward family dinners for the rest of his life. Abraham got off better than Jephthah, who had to follow through with murdering his daughter (burning her alive, specifically) in order to get on God's good side before battling the Ammonites. (Genesis 22:1-12)
> 
> 7) Killing Egyptian Babies
> Let's be completely up front: The Egyptians and the Jews did not get along. According to the Bible, the Egyptians enslaved the Jews, but the Jews had God on their side, if you kind of ignore God letting his people be enslaved in the first place. Rather getting his worshippers the hell out of there, God wanted to show those damned Egyptians what for, releasing 10 plagues that began with turning the river Nile into pure blood, and ending with the slaughter of the first-born of every single Egyptian man and animal. Now, I suppose it's possible that some, or even most of these first-borns were adults who were ****ty to the Israelites. But some of them were babies who didn't even have the*time*to persecute the Jews yet. And what the hell did the animals do to the Jews to get caught up in this nightmare? You realize there were cats in Egypt, right? Cats who had first-borns?*God killed kittens. (Numbers 16:41-49)
> 
> 8) Killing a Dude for Not Making More Babies
> So you're a dude named Onan and you have a brother named Er. God does not care for Er, and kills him. Standard God operating procedure. Then things gets weird. Onan's dad orders Onan to have sex with Er's wife — not marry, by the way, just have sex with. This is actually pretty awkward for Onan, sleeping with his sister-in-law, and rather than give her any more kids (she had two with Er already) he pulls out. God is so infuriated that Onan did not **** his sister-in-law to completion that he kills him, too. Now, you could argue that God demands that intercourse be used specifically for procreation, but given how much God loves killing babies and children, I don't think his motives here are exceptionally pure. (Genesis 38:1-10)
> 
> 9) Helping Samson Murder People to Pay Off a Bet
> More evidence that God is possibly a low-level mobster: When his pal Samson got married, he was given 30 friends, and he posed them (a completely insane) riddle. Then he made a bet that if they could solve it in a week, Samson would give them all new clothes, but if they couldn't they would give Samson 30 pairs of new clothes. Well, Samson's wife wheedled the answer out of him and then told these dudes, at which point an angry Samson had to pay up. And here's where God comes in — literally, into Samson, giving him the power to murder 30 random people for their clothes. Only a true friend would help you commit mass murder to settle a completely stupid bet. (Judges 14:1-19)
> 
> 10) Trying to Wrestle a Guy, Cheating, and Still Losing
> And here's more evidence that God is a drunk maniac: Jacob was traveling with his two wives, his 11 kids, and all his earthly possessions and had sent them across a river. At that moment, a guy essentially leapt out of the bushes and started wrestling. It's God! They wrestle all night, and God cannot beat Jacob, so he uses his magic God powers to wrench Jacob's hip out of its socket. But Jacob*still*won't let him out of a headlock until God blesses him, because Jacob has figured out who this bizarre man is. God blesses him and wanders off, presumably to go get in a bar fight somewhere. (Genesis 32: 22-31)
> 
> 11) Killing People for Complaining About God Killing Them
> To be fair, after God freed the Israelites from Egyptian slavery, they were extraordinarily *****y about not instantly being in a land of milk and honey. It got so bad that God was ready to kill all of them and let Moses start the Jews over, although Moses managed to talk him out of it. But one of their more sensible complaints was that Moses was lording himself over the rest of them, which was probably true, seeing as God had given him the 10 Commandments and all that. So Moses summoned the three tribal elders who had made the complaint to a Monday morning staff meeting, but two of them didn't come. Neither Moses nor God cared for that, and God opened up the grounds beneath their people's tents, killing both tribes (God also set fire to 250 Israelite princes who'd made the same complaint). Having been well admonished that Moses was putting himself above the rest of the people with God's permission, a number of surviving Israelites were kind of pissed that Moses and God had killed so many of their fellow people to prove a point. God responded by killing another 14,700 of them with a plague. The complaints stopped. (Numbers 16:1-49)
> 
> 12) Everything He Did to Job
> Oh, Job. Other than a ****-ton of babies, no one had it worse in the Bible than Job, who was a righteous, good-hearted man who believed in God with every fiber in his being — which is when God decides to see how miserable he can make this dude before he gets upset. Note: This is a result of a bet between God and Satan. Also note: The bet is God's idea. He's literally just hanging out with Satan — which is kinda weird when you think about it — when he started bragging about how awesome Job is. Satan points out that Job's pretty blessed — he's rich, he's got a lot of kids, etc., and he probably wouldn't be quite so thrilled with God if he didn't have that stuff. God downs his bourbon, presumably, and tells Satan he can mess with Job all he wants. Satan does. He kills all of Job's children and animals, burns down his house, destroys his wealth, and then covers him in boils. Job doesn't curse God, but he does wish he'd never been born (literally) and begs God to kill him, but no dice. This lasts a long time until finally Job wonders why a just God would be so cruel. This is when God pops up and basically tells him, "Shut up, I don't have to explain anything to you." Job, having finally done something wrong, pleads for mercy, and God eventually gives him back animals and children — new ones, because the old ones are still dead. Because of a bet. That God made with Satan. For kicks. (Job 1)_
> 
> 12 Craziest, Most Awful Things God Did in the Old Testament | Alternet


Sometimes, I view the Bible as a compilation of stories from another time period that don't necessarily mean we should mirror in this time period. Maybe that is how the people of that time ''understood'' God. I tend to focus more on the NT, than the OT, but the OT serves as a foreshadowing of the NT, in some ways.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> That's the important thing, I think, is to be true to who you are. I didn't make a very good atheist lol I felt lost, empty. That's just my experience. Perhaps I felt that way because I was raised in a Christian household, and to walk away from it all for a few years, felt strange, to be honest. But, I didn't come back to faith on my own, I had an experience of faith. It led me back. I understand what you're saying here, faith should be more than a security blanket, or something to comfort us when things get tough. But, I can't judge others' faith or even lack of faith. We're all on a journey and we find what works for us, I guess.
> 
> My experience of faith was the holy spirit. I ended up coming back to Christianity from the experience. I hear you about the Bible, I don't take it all literally. I'm not a fundamentalist, and honestly don't go to church regularly. But, my faith is my own, now...It's not just something handed down to me from my upbringing. My relationship with Jesus is personal, my own. The Bible can ''teach'' one about the faith, but the Bible can't ''teach'' faith. I think as much as we can read a holy text about faith, we also have to experience it.
> 
> I think it's interesting that you envy people who have faith. Do you wish that you had faith? I appreciate your post here, and look forward to your reply.




Yes I do, because after we die, I don't really think it makes any difference what we believe. The only difference it will make, will be to our lives now. I often imagine that somebody with faith will perhaps be much more at peace while alive, knowing that our worst nightmares, such as losing somebody close to a horrible illness or being completely lost/rejected/hurt/unloved etc, will be according to 'god's plan', whatever it may be and that everything will be 'revealed' at the end and that Jesus or <insert god of choice> will take good care, no matter what.

But in reality, I don't think it's that simple for people even with very strong faith: it might be the case if one was 100% convinced but having 'faith' is very different from 'knowing', a concept that many atheists perhaps fail to identify with. 
Some religious people may proclaim they are 100% convinced but I am not so sure they think as they preach. Speaking with some of my friends who have "faith"' on one level or another, it seems to me that faith to them is more like hope and I think atheists and the 'faithful' are actually not as far apart as the arguments between both camps may imply. Basically both feel lost and hopeless at times, except one may turn to god when in despair and the other will turn to something else.
So my idea of 'faith' may be based on an idealism that may not exist. All I can say is that there is no way for me to be able to accept something as fact, or even to hope for something that may sound like a nice story, for which there is absolutely no rational reason, no indication or hint of any kind (except what we narrate ourselves about what we see around us: which is a highly subjective perception of reality). 
I think it is possible that reality may be way more quirky than we can suppose, it can even be possible that there is no such thing as 'reality' except what we make it out to be. Or it can be many other different things. But if I was looking for 'truth', it would not be in the bible or church etc. The only reason I might look at the bible was if I was a historian.

I'm not sure how to phrase these things without sounding condescending to the ones with faith. But I hope I was able to lay out my thinking more or less.

I think you are right, we are conditioned to think more closely from the way we were brought up. Or I may just be lacking that 'faith' gene. Yes, I sometimes wish I had one.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Sometimes, I view the Bible as a compilation of stories from another time period that don't necessarily mean we should mirror in this time period. Maybe that is how the people of that time ''understood'' God. I tend to focus more on the NT, than the OT, but the OT serves as a foreshadowing of the NT, in some ways.




Yes I agree, except I would substitute the word "God" with "the world". The thing is, the more we find out about the world around us and get closer to the intrinsic nature of it, the less of an importance 'god' seems to play in it (as understood from the texts anyway; there is also plenty of incoherence in NT too, I'm afraid to say). For me, there certainly is no reason so suppose that there is a personal god. 
'Consciousness' is an interesting subject and kind of difficult to explain but something we can be certain of (because most of us experience it directly but we don't really understand how that happens). Though I don't really know how god can come into it. 
I often have 'spiritual' experiences. I think most of us do when we are in awe of something for example but not all of us ascribe it to holy spirits.
You wrote that you 'identified' yourself as an atheist. I'm not sure atheists identify themselves as 'atheists' to be honest. Being an atheist is just an absence of a belief, not believing that there is no god. I can't say I identify myself as a non-golfer or non-astrologist. I just don't really read horoscopes and don't play golf (that much).



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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Yes I do, because after we die, I don't really think it makes any difference what we believe. The only difference it will make, will be to our lives now. I often imagine that somebody with faith will perhaps be much more at peace while alive, knowing that our worst nightmares, such as losing somebody close to a horrible illness or being completely lost/rejected/hurt/unloved etc, will be according to 'god's plan', whatever it may be and that everything will be 'revealed' at the end and that Jesus or <insert god of choice> will take good care, no matter what.
> 
> But in reality, I don't think it's that simple for people even with very strong faith: it might be the case if one was 100% convinced but having 'faith' is very different from 'knowing', a concept that many atheists perhaps fail to identify with.
> Some religious people may proclaim they are 100% convinced but I am not so sure they think as they preach. Speaking with some of my friends who have "faith"' on one level or another, it seems to me that faith to them is more like hope and I think atheists and the 'faithful' are actually not as far apart as the arguments between both camps may imply. Basically both feel lost and hopeless at times, except one may turn to god when in despair and the other will turn to something else.
> So my idea of 'faith' may be based on an idealism that may not exist. All I can say is that there is no way for me to be able to accept something as fact, or even to hope for something that may sound like a nice story, for which there is absolutely no rational reason, no indication or hint of any kind (except what we narrate ourselves about what we see around us: which is a highly subjective perception of reality).
> I think it is possible that reality may be way more quirky than we can suppose, it can even be possible that there is no such thing as 'reality' except what we make it out to be. Or it can be many other different things. But if I was looking for 'truth', it would not be in the bible or church etc. The only reason I might look at the bible was if I was a historian.
> 
> I'm not sure how to phrase these things without sounding condescending to the ones with faith. But I hope I was able to lay out my thinking more or less.
> 
> I think you are right, we are conditioned to think more closely from the way we were brought up. Or I may just be lacking that 'faith' gene. Yes, I sometimes wish I had one.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are many of us who are 100% convinced. I for one. I cant remember a time when I didn't know that Jesus Christ was real and alive.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> There are many of us who are 100% convinced. I for one. I cant remember a time when I didn't know that Jesus Christ was real and alive.



What about his whereabouts? Or is that something the president will announce AFTER they make contact? (Bit like the Bin Laden assassination). 
I will join you in your conviction if you show me where he lives.
Also: can he be 'alive' and still be god? Seems contradictory.
Sorry, this was my envy typing 


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## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> What about his whereabouts? Or is that something the president will announce AFTER they make contact? (Bit like the Bin Laden assassination).
> I will join you in your conviction if you show me where he lives.
> Also: can he be 'alive' and still be god? Seems contradictory.
> Sorry, this was my envy typing
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In spirit, and He dwells within us. As believers, we believe this, anyway. 

It's funny you say that you envy people who have faith, I've somewhat envied people who grew up with atheist parents, because then, if as adults they turn to faith, nothing from their childhood brought that on, you know? For me, I can't deny that the pull of my childhood ''indoctrination'' into faith, caused me probably to feel lost when I left Christianity, and identified as an atheist.


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## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Yes I agree, except I would substitute the word "God" with "the world". The thing is, the more we find out about the world around us and get closer to the intrinsic nature of it, the less of an importance 'god' seems to play in it (as understood from the texts anyway; there is also plenty of incoherence in NT too, I'm afraid to say). For me, there certainly is no reason so suppose that there is a personal god.
> 'Consciousness' is an interesting subject and kind of difficult to explain but something we can be certain of (because most of us experience it directly but we don't really understand how that happens). Though I don't really know how god can come into it.
> I often have 'spiritual' experiences. I think most of us do when we are in awe of something for example but not all of us ascribe it to holy spirits.
> You wrote that you 'identified' yourself as an atheist. I'm not sure atheists identify themselves as 'atheists' to be honest. Being an atheist is just an absence of a belief, not believing that there is no god. I can't say I identify myself as a non-golfer or non-astrologist. I just don't really read horoscopes and don't play golf (that much).
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, ''identify'' meaning...a label that if you were asked ''what do you believe?'' you'd answer ''I'm an atheist,'' or a variation of that. When I left faith, it wasn't a choice, it was a gradual moving away from prayer, from church, eventually it felt like a conclusion to no longer follow a god, or believe in one. So, I understand atheism better having ''identified'' as one, than before when I was a Christian, and I assumed that atheism was somehow ''evil,'' etc. 

You identify as a non-golfer. lol  Whateverrr.


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## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Yes I do, because after we die, I don't really think it makes any difference what we believe. The only difference it will make, will be to our lives now. I often imagine that somebody with faith will perhaps be much more at peace while alive, knowing that our worst nightmares, such as losing somebody close to a horrible illness or being completely lost/rejected/hurt/unloved etc, will be according to 'god's plan', whatever it may be and that everything will be 'revealed' at the end and that Jesus or <insert god of choice> will take good care, no matter what.
> 
> But in reality, I don't think it's that simple for people even with very strong faith: it might be the case if one was 100% convinced but having 'faith' is very different from 'knowing', a concept that many atheists perhaps fail to identify with.
> Some religious people may proclaim they are 100% convinced but I am not so sure they think as they preach. Speaking with some of my friends who have "faith"' on one level or another, it seems to me that faith to them is more like hope and I think atheists and the 'faithful' are actually not as far apart as the arguments between both camps may imply. Basically both feel lost and hopeless at times, except one may turn to god when in despair and the other will turn to something else.
> So my idea of 'faith' may be based on an idealism that may not exist. All I can say is that there is no way for me to be able to accept something as fact, or even to hope for something that may sound like a nice story, for which there is absolutely no rational reason, no indication or hint of any kind (except what we narrate ourselves about what we see around us: which is a highly subjective perception of reality).
> I think it is possible that reality may be way more quirky than we can suppose, it can even be possible that there is no such thing as 'reality' except what we make it out to be. Or it can be many other different things. But if I was looking for 'truth', it would not be in the bible or church etc. The only reason I might look at the bible was if I was a historian.
> 
> I'm not sure how to phrase these things without sounding condescending to the ones with faith. But I hope I was able to lay out my thinking more or less.
> 
> I think you are right, we are conditioned to think more closely from the way we were brought up. Or I may just be lacking that 'faith' gene. Yes, I sometimes wish I had one.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agree with much of this, but from going through a journey of sorts with my faith over the past nearly 5 years, I would say that we all have more in common than we don't. We tend to separate ourselves with labels and such, but in truth, we all have beliefs, even non-beliefs, and we all have sets of truths that we follow. Life isn't cut and dry, imo, and faith doesn't suddenly make me feel like everything in life makes sense. For me, my relationship with Jesus is what comforts me and carries me through life, with strength. Is that all in my head? I don't believe so, I finally accept that what I'm feeling is a relationship with God. But, I can't tell you to feel it, I can only share my own experiences, and thoughts about God with you. This is where organized religion takes things off the rails a bit. It can sometimes cause believers to push faith onto others, and I'll never understand that because God doesn't push Himself onto us. At least this is how I see my faith, now.


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## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Do you feel your faith is rooted in the fact that your husbands' faith is strong? It seems people often change their beliefs depending on who they are with at the time (it seems to play a big part).
> I know of only very few scientists who also have faith (in the biblical god). As soon as you approach the subject logically, it really does tend to fall apart...There must be an emotion involved that switches something in the brain (which I seem to be lacking).


Even Einstein was open to the possibility that something beyond us, might exist. Maybe not a personal god, but he didn't close the door to the possibilities.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> What about his whereabouts? Or is that something the president will announce AFTER they make contact? (Bit like the Bin Laden assassination).
> I will join you in your conviction if you show me where he lives.
> Also: can he be 'alive' and still be god? Seems contradictory.
> Sorry, this was my envy typing
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right now He is with the Father in heaven. We have God with us through the Holy Spirit. Jesus is going to return though.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> In spirit, and He dwells within us. As believers, we believe this, anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> It's funny you say that you envy people who have faith, I've somewhat envied people who grew up with atheist parents, because then, if as adults they turn to faith, nothing from their childhood brought that on, you know? For me, I can't deny that the pull of my childhood ''indoctrination'' into faith, caused me probably to feel lost when I left Christianity, and identified as an atheist.




If childhood didn't bring on faith then some other traumatic event during adulthood might. Some things are too horrible to come to terms with, without faith. Then again, some things are too horrible and at the same time imagine that there is a loving, caring, omnipotent god watching over us and allowing this to happen.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Even Einstein was open to the possibility that something beyond us, might exist. Maybe not a personal god, but he didn't close the door to the possibilities.




Nobody rational will close the door to a possibility that anything is possible. But we have to live our lives within some kind of concept of reality. I realise that for some, reality =god, I just cannot convince myself as I don't see events in life unfolding within some kind of master plan. I certain don't deny levels of reality far beyond our comprehension but it will be a far cry from anything what the majority of people actually believe and what's in the texts and the reasons why people go to church.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Well, ''identify'' meaning...a label that if you were asked ''what do you believe?'' you'd answer ''I'm an atheist,'' or a variation of that. When I left faith, it wasn't a choice, it was a gradual moving away from prayer, from church, eventually it felt like a conclusion to no longer follow a god, or believe in one. So, I understand atheism better having ''identified'' as one, than before when I was a Christian, and I assumed that atheism was somehow ''evil,'' etc.
> 
> 
> 
> You identify as a non-golfer. lol  Whateverrr.




That's exactly what atheism is not: it's not a belief. It's the absence of belief. Very different. It's living life by what we see and can explain using logic. You might think it's too 'dry' to go through life with just logic but it doesn't mean atheists don't feel things...they just don't ascribe them to god. Most things you feel can be replicated using certain stimulants or drugs." Which means they are physical in nature, not metaphysical. The term 'atheism' has been given by the religious to describe a concept they don't really understand. I don't 'identify' myself as a non-golfer, that was my point. The golf club would identify me as such, others would just see me as a person. That's why I'm not sure you were ever really an 'atheist'. An atheist wouldn't call themselves such. 


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> Right now He is with the Father in heaven. We have God with us through the Holy Spirit. Jesus is going to return though.




I thought Jesus, God and the holy spirits are all the same thing?


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Agree with much of this, but from going through a journey of sorts with my faith over the past nearly 5 years, I would say that we all have more in common than we don't. We tend to separate ourselves with labels and such, but in truth, we all have beliefs, even non-beliefs, and we all have sets of truths that we follow. Life isn't cut and dry, imo, and faith doesn't suddenly make me feel like everything in life makes sense. For me, my relationship with Jesus is what comforts me and carries me through life, with strength. Is that all in my head? I don't believe so, I finally accept that what I'm feeling is a relationship with God. But, I can't tell you to feel it, I can only share my own experiences, and thoughts about God with you. This is where organized religion takes things off the rails a bit. It can sometimes cause believers to push faith onto others, and I'll never understand that because God doesn't push Himself onto us. At least this is how I see my faith, now.




I think prt of the reason why the other believers try to 'push things onto us' because they try to save us. According to their ideology, I'm going to hell for not believing in the right type of god or not believing at all. So I take their concern for me as a sign of compassion. Don't get me wrong, I would t want to go to hell and would much more prefer the heaven stuff (particularly 72 virgins might be appealing to men - this heaven place seems to have been designed with mostly men in mind, it seems - but not if my wife is coming with me to the same place then I wouldn't want those..).
I also don't understand why god made me that way (not being able to believe) so I'm stuck in a limbo.

Anyway, clearly you derive strength from your faith and that is a great thing. Whether it's true doesn't really matter, as long as it is true for YOU. Everything is in our heads. Even I am in my own head, if that makes sense. There is no 'I'. We imagine one with our brain. Just like we imagine the rest of the reality. 
It's best to talk about these things when one is a little bit high  (though I don't do drugs but I think I can 'imagine' what it's like, in my head 


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## *Deidre*

That ^^ makes sense. I find that there is so much judgement in the world around us for who we label ourselves to be, which is why I dislike labels. 

I read a few interesting articles about marriage, and who has the highest divorce rates. Apparently, now these are just stats, but as far as stats go, atheists have the least amount of divorce, while evangelical Christians have the highest. And some of the best marriages are between atheists and religious people. I wonder if evangelical Christians are high with divorce because there is this idea out there, that there is 'one, true soul mate' that God has picked for you, and then you marry him/her, and if the couple isn't prepared on a secular level for marriage at all, and is thinking that they just need to pray their marriage into success, then that could be part of the problem. I'm not sure, but that comes to mind when I read that.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I thought Jesus, God and the holy spirits are all the same thing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Separate but one. The trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.


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## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> That ^^ makes sense. I find that there is so much judgement in the world around us for who we label ourselves to be, which is why I dislike labels.
> 
> I read a few interesting articles about marriage, and who has the highest divorce rates. Apparently, now these are just stats, but as far as stats go, atheists have the least amount of divorce, while evangelical Christians have the highest. And some of the best marriages are between atheists and religious people. I wonder if evangelical Christians are high with divorce because there is this idea out there, that there is 'one, true soul mate' that God has picked for you, and then you marry him/her, and if the couple isn't prepared on a secular level for marriage at all, and is thinking that they just need to pray their marriage into success, then that could be part of the problem. I'm not sure, but that comes to mind when I read that.


I believe that in church going committed Christians the divorce rate is lower. I know of so many divorces, but only a couple where both were Christians. Remember also that atheists are far more likely to live together without marriage, and those relationships are far far more likely to end than a marriage. Also people who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who don't. 

Christians are just as prepared for marriage as anyone else, and many go to preparation for marriage courses. 

I also know marriages where one is a committed christian and one not, they are generally not happy marriages.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I think prt of the reason why the other believers try to 'push things onto us' because they try to save us. According to their ideology, I'm going to hell for not believing in the right type of god or not believing at all. So I take their concern for me as a sign of compassion. Don't get me wrong, I would t want to go to hell and would much more prefer the heaven stuff (particularly 72 virgins might be appealing to men - this heaven place seems to have been designed with mostly men in mind, it seems - but not if my wife is coming with me to the same place then I wouldn't want those..).
> I also don't understand why god made me that way (not being able to believe) so I'm stuck in a limbo.
> 
> Anyway, clearly you derive strength from your faith and that is a great thing. Whether it's true doesn't really matter, as long as it is true for YOU. Everything is in our heads. Even I am in my own head, if that makes sense. There is no 'I'. We imagine one with our brain. Just like we imagine the rest of the reality.
> It's best to talk about these things when one is a little bit high  (though I don't do drugs but I think I can 'imagine' what it's like, in my head
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The 77 virgins thing is pure nonsense, its an islamic belief. Their religion is very down on women, Christianity isn't. Part of me feels for those young men who blow themselves up thinking they will get that 'reward', but part of me is sickened that they even think that's what God is like. Its not. Their god is false.

Yes you are right. If you saw people on a boat heading for a massive waterfall, would you want to warn them? As Christians God tells us to tell others about Him. Its not something that is just for us, but for everyone. Its not something we are supposed to hide from others or keep to ourselves.
God hasnt made you 'not' to believe, we all have a choice to follow him or not. You can make that choice today by finding a church that runs an alpha course or similar, which is for those like you who want to know more and ask questions.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> If childhood didn't bring on faith then some other traumatic event during adulthood might. Some things are too horrible to come to terms with, without faith. Then again, some things are too horrible and at the same time imagine that there is a loving, caring, omnipotent god watching over us and allowing this to happen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The alternative to Him allowing these things to happen is that He make us all into robots who He controls. Most of the suffering in the world is caused by us, man.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> That ^^ makes sense. I find that there is so much judgement in the world around us for who we label ourselves to be, which is why I dislike labels.
> 
> I read a few interesting articles about marriage, and who has the highest divorce rates. Apparently, now these are just stats, but as far as stats go, atheists have the least amount of divorce, while evangelical Christians have the highest. And some of the best marriages are between atheists and religious people. I wonder if evangelical Christians are high with divorce because there is this idea out there, that there is 'one, true soul mate' that God has picked for you, and then you marry him/her, and if the couple isn't prepared on a secular level for marriage at all, and is thinking that they just need to pray their marriage into success, then that could be part of the problem. I'm not sure, but that comes to mind when I read that.




Yes, sorry, I think it was me who posts these stats....I think one of the reasons was the fact that Christians tend to marry younger, with less education (at that moment in time) because church encourages this. 
Praying for marriage to succeed is another. But then again, the same principle would apply when trying to pray away for any kind of problem rather than taking responsibility for t yourself and resolving it. I have a lot of Christian friends who put all their faith in god and get often discouraged when nothing gets fixed or done and they end up having to do things themselves.

Anyway, I don't believe in the whole soul mate thing. While I definitely would not have picked anyone else but my wife, I am not sure I can say the same about her (picking me). But one can grow closer together (or drift apart) and relationships evolve continuously. Nothing is ever static or set in stone.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> Separate but one. The trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.




Ah ok. This is the first time I heard someone make an attempt at explaining the trinity thing...So basically god can be anything and everything.
Then I believe!


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Yes, sorry, I think it was me who posts these stats....I think one of the reasons was the fact that Christians tend to marry younger, with less education (at that moment in time) because church encourages this.
> Praying for marriage to succeed is another. But then again, the same principle would apply when trying to pray away for any kind of problem rather than taking responsibility for t yourself and resolving it. I have a lot of Christian friends who put all their faith in god and get often discouraged when nothing gets fixed or done and they end up having to do things themselves.
> 
> Anyway, I don't believe in the whole soul mate thing. While I definitely would not have picked anyone else but my wife, I am not sure I can say the same about her (picking me). But one can grow closer together (or drift apart) and relationships evolve continuously. Nothing is ever static or set in stone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have found its a mixture, with God doing some things without my input, and other times He works in and through me to change things. Either way He is always involved. 

The reasons Christians often marry earlier is because we aren't to live together outside marriage. Having said that, my son and older step-son didn't marry till they were way past 30, both are Christians.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Ah ok. This is the first time I heard someone make an attempt at explaining the trinity thing...So basically god can be anything and everything.
> Then I believe!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see it like an egg. You have the shell, the yoke and the white. One egg with 3 distinct parts.

This may help
https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I believe that in church going committed Christians the divorce rate is lower. I know of so many divorces, but only a couple where both were Christians. Remember also that atheists are far more likely to live together without marriage, and those relationships are far far more likely to end than a marriage. Also people who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who don't.
> 
> 
> 
> Christians are just as prepared for marriage as anyone else, and many go to preparation for marriage courses.
> 
> 
> 
> I also know marriages where one is a committed christian and one not, they are generally not happy marriages.



Maybe you should publish your own studies, based on your own hearsay  This does not at all seem to conform with reality from various published surveys. But ok.

Btw why are people more likely to divorce if they lived together before marriage? Is it the sex before marriage thing? I'm still of the opinion one should do a 'test drive' before marrying. It makes little sense not to. Also it is only when you actually live together, will you truly be able to find out whether you are actually compatible with each other or not. I think on balance, the studies are probably correct.




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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Maybe you should publish your own studies, based on your own hearsay  This does not at all seem to conform with reality from various published surveys. But ok.
> 
> Btw why are people more likely to divorce if they lived together before marriage? Is it the sex before marriage thing? I'm still of the opinion one should do a 'test drive' before marrying. It makes little sense not to. Also it is only when you actually live together, will you truly be able to find out whether you are actually compatible with each other or not. I think on balance, the studies are probably correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think its because those who don't live together first are often Christians and more committed to marriage generally. The fact that more who live together first divorce, shows that having a 'test drive' doesn't make divorce less likely.
A relative of mine tried to tell me that, 'well how do you know if you are compatible'? they said. I said it wasn't an option for us because we don't believe in sex outside marriage.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> The 77 virgins thing is pure nonsense, its an islamic belief. Their religion is very down on women, Christianity isn't. Part of me feels for those young men who blow themselves up thinking they will get that 'reward', but part of me is sickened that they even think that's what God is like. Its not. Their god is false.
> 
> Yes you are right. If you saw people on a boat heading for a massive waterfall, would you want to warn them? As Christians God tells us to tell others about Him. Its not something that is just for us, but for everyone. Its not something we are supposed to hide from others or keep to ourselves.
> God hasnt made you 'not' to believe, we all have a choice to follow him or not. You can make that choice today by finding a church that runs an alpha course or similar, which is for those like you who want to know more and ask questions.



"Their god is false." 

But how can you be sure that it's their god which is false and not yours? (Btw it's supposed to be all the same god, the abrahamic kind). I never understood this: one is completely pre-conditioned which god to believe in, depending on which family one gets born into. Does it not seem a tad arrogant to claim that only one god is the true god and everyone else is wrong? I'm sure there must have been wars about this....

"If you saw people on a boat heading for a massive waterfall, would you want to warn them?"

Well, it's more like a distraction with a lie 
We are all going down that waterfall eventually; it's the quality of the journey that counts.

"God hasnt made you 'not' to believe, we all have a choice to follow him or not. You can make that choice today by finding a church that runs an alpha course or similar, which is for those like you who want to know more and ask questions."

But i don't have a choice, that's the point . I can tell myself that there is a Christian god (or whichever kind) but I will just be lying to myself because I don't see any reason to suppose that there is anything or anyone remotely similar to what's been described in the books. 95% of the stuff in those books is contradictory and makes absolutely no sense to me :-/ I don't think the free will is a free as it is advertised to be...I am a case in point!
As for the alpha course, I'm pretty sure I will drive them insane with my questions and they will quickly lose their will to live and probably end up converting themselves to Islam or the Orbiting Teapot religion.





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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> "Their god is false."
> 
> But how can you be sure that it's their god which is false and not yours? (Btw it's supposed to be all the same god, the abrahamic kind).
> 
> "If you saw people on a boat heading for a massive waterfall, would you want to warn them?"
> 
> Well, it's more like a distraction with a lie
> We are all going down that waterfall eventually; it's the quality of the journey that counts.
> 
> "God hasnt made you 'not' to believe, we all have a choice to follow him or not. You can make that choice today by finding a church that runs an alpha course or similar, which is for those like you who want to know more and ask questions."
> 
> But i don't have a choice, that's the point . I can tell myself that there is a Christian god (or whichever kind) but I will just be lying to myself because I don't see any reason to suppose that there is anything or anyone remotely similar to what's been described in the books. 95% of the stuff in those books is contradictory and makes absolutely no sense to me :-/ I don't think the free will is a free as it is advertised to be...I am a case in point!
> As for the alpha course, I'm pretty sure I will drive them insane with my questions and they will quickly lose their will to live and probably end up converting themselves to Islam or the Orbiting Teapot religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The god they worship is completely different. Their faith is completely different. 
Thats what alpha is for, to ask and answer questions.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I have found its a mixture, with God doing some things without my input, and other times He works in and through me to change things. Either way He is always involved.
> 
> 
> 
> The reasons Christians often marry earlier is because we aren't to live together outside marriage. Having said that, my son and older step-son didn't marry till they were way past 30, both are Christians.




OTOH both me and my wife lives together before marriage, aren't Christians and still married  While many Christians posting here are at least on their 2nd marriage...
(Too small a sample for a study but still, according to your logic it should be reasonable anecdotal evidence...).

Why does god choose to involve himself in some things and dis-involve himself in others? Are you sure you are definitely not confusing god's involvement with coincidences and with things that don't work out a certain way (or don't make sense), then god will somehow become dis-involved? 
It would be relatively easy to prove whether god is involved in things or whether your prayers have any effect with fairly high certainty. I'm pretty sure the outcome would be the same as a coin flip, implying a random coincidence. It is US, who ascribe meaning to things and tell ourselves a story of why something went one way, and not another. To me, this is as obvious as night and day.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> OTOH both me and my wife lives together before marriage, aren't Christians and still married  While many Christians posting here are at least on their 2nd marriage...
> (Too small a sample for a study but still, according to your logic it should be reasonable anecdotal evidence...).
> 
> Why does god choose to involve himself in some things and dis-involve himself in others? Are you sure you are definitely not confusing god's involvement with coincidences and with things that don't work out a certain way (or don't make sense), then god will somehow become dis-involved?
> It would be relatively easy to prove whether god is involved in things or whether your prayers have any effect with fairly high certainty. I'm pretty sure the outcome would be the same as a coin flip, implying a random coincidence. It is US, who ascribe meaning to things and tell ourselves a story of why something went one way, and not another. To me, this is as obvious as night and day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If we follow Him He is involved in every part of our lives. However He doesn't treat us like little children, but lets us make our own choices and decisions, sometimes bad ones. His work in us is a joint effort, we have to be open and willing to let Him change us. I know people who were miraculously healed after prayer. I know a couple who were heavily into crime their lives changed completely after their conversion.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I think its because those who don't live together first are often Christians and more committed to marriage generally. The fact that more who live together first divorce, shows that having a 'test drive' doesn't make divorce less likely.
> 
> A relative of mine tried to tell me that, 'well how do you know if you are compatible'? they said. I said it wasn't an option for us because we don't believe in sex outside marriage.



But that's not a fact! 
New studies find no correlation between living together and higher divorce rates. 

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4936928

"It’s often said that that living together before marriage puts couples at greater risk for divorce later on — but it turns out that may not be the case at all.

A new study by associate professor Arielle Kuperberg from the University of North Carolina at Greensboro found that there is no correlation between cohabiting before marriage and divorce; instead, what may predict divorce in those who cohabitate before marriage is the age at which they choose do so."


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I see it like an egg. You have the shell, the yoke and the white. One egg with 3 distinct parts.
> 
> This may help
> https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html



What's an omelette then or if it gets scrambled? I will never eat breakfast in the same way again.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> But that's not a fact!
> New studies find no correlation between living together and higher divorce rates.
> 
> New Research Says Living Together Before Marriage Doesn't Lead To Divorce | The Huffington Post
> 
> "It’s often said that that living together before marriage puts couples at greater risk for divorce later on — but it turns out that may not be the case at all.
> 
> A new study by associate professor Arielle Kuperberg from the University of North Carolina at Greensboro found that there is no correlation between cohabiting before marriage and divorce; instead, what may predict divorce in those who cohabitate before marriage is the age at which they choose do so."
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IT was a British study and article that I read.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> The god they worship is completely different. Their faith is completely different.
> 
> Thats what alpha is for, to ask and answer questions.




Does different equal false though? This view seems to border on intolerance (i refer my honourable friend to the crusades once more...). 
I wonder where this conviction comes from. Always puzzled me.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> If we follow Him He is involved in every part of our lives. However He doesn't treat us like little children, but lets us make our own choices and decisions, sometimes bad ones. His work in us is a joint effort, we have to be open and willing to let Him change us. I know people who were miraculously healed after prayer. I know a couple who were heavily into crime their lives changed completely after their conversion.




But does it matter that I know more people who prayed and got worse? 
What about the dying babies from diseases or natural disasters, there is no chance free will could be made accountable for these horrors. But god has a plan for everyone, even if we never realise what it is, will probably be the response to this little dilemma.



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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Does different equal false though? This view seems to border on intolerance (i refer my honourable friend to the crusades once more...).
> I wonder where this conviction comes from. Always puzzled me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The only way we can get to God is though Jesus Christ and no no other religion believes He is who He says He is. Many muslims in the middle east are seeing dreams and vision of Jesus and converting. Its really exciting. :smile2:


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## Bibi1031

Has faith/religion helped your relationship?

Sadly no. It has helped me personally though as it should. My journey with God is personal and sadly non transferable. Not even to a spouse or a child of mine. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink even if they are thirsty....sigh.

:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> But does it matter that I know more people who prayed and got worse?
> What about the dying babies from diseases or natural disasters, there is no chance free will could be made accountable for these horrors. But god has a plan for everyone, even if we never realise what it is, will probably be the response to this little dilemma.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have had terrible things happen in my life, we live in a world at this time full of sin and sickness, but I still know that God is good, that He loves me, and that one day things wont be like this.


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## *Deidre*

Bibi1031 said:


> Has faith/religion helped your relationship?
> 
> Sadly no. It has helped me personally though as it should. My journey with God is personal and sadly non transferable. Not even to a spouse or a child of mine. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink even if they are thirsty....sigh.
> 
> :crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:


I think that's a great way of putting it, that our faith is personal, and it's personal for every believer. I'm sorry that you wish your spouse was part of it. Maybe someday.


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## BioFury

The faith is indispensable in my opinion. The lands we live in have laws, to govern how people should and should not behave. God has laws as well, to govern how people should and should not behave. God's law rewards the good and destroys the evil. Without them, society will tear itself apart. Like it is right now.


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## Bibi1031

*Deidre* said:


> I think that's a great way of putting it, that our faith is personal, and it's personal for every believer. *I'm sorry that you wish your spouse was part of it. Maybe someday. *


Not likely as my two marriages were with indeed believers born into Christian faiths. One was even a high official in his church...LOL. The church official didn't cheat, but that is about the only thing he didn't do to destroy our marriage.:frown2:

As to my children, they were born in the RC faith and they have both seeked God in their own way and came back to the faith their father and I introduced them to God in. They know God personally, but yet don't always obey His laws. That is why I stated that you can lead a horse to water and even make them thirsty, but you can't make them drink no matter what. That is a very personal choice. 

I have faith in my children though, they fall off the wagon so to speak; but they do get back on track...eventually.:smile2:


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I have had terrible things happen in my life, we live in a world at this time full of sin and sickness, but I still know that God is good, that He loves me, and that one day things wont be like this.




It's called hope! We all share it, no matter what religion.


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## 269370

BioFury said:


> The faith is indispensable in my opinion. The lands we live in have laws, to govern how people should and should not behave. God has laws as well, to govern how people should and should not behave. God's law rewards the good and destroys the evil. Without them, society will tear itself apart. Like it is right now.




How do you explain the fact that hundreds/thousands of years ago, people were tearing each other much more apart, while belief in god was 100% prevalent back then. Now it is around 63% in the US. Shouldn't we have become much more violent, less civilised and lost all our moral compass? Compared to a thousand years ago? It is pretty clear that we don't need to derive all our morals from the holy texts. There is actually an evolutionary explanation why most of us have an inbuilt drive to do good things altruistically rather than for some kind of reward. In any case, a person who does good deeds just because he wants to do good to others is a more noble individual than a person who does good deeds because he is afraid of going to hell. Yet it is the former who will be burning in hell forever. Not fair much?


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## Bibi1031

inmyprime said:


> In any case, a person who does good deeds just because he wants to do good to others is a more noble individual than a person who does good deeds because he is afraid of going to hell. Yet it is the former who will be burning in hell forever.


I have no idea where you get your info. I don't believe in God because I am going to heaven when I die. That is just a bonus. I believe in God because my life would be so much worse without him. As to those that insist He doesn't exist, many of us can't deny His existence. It will be like me denying my mother never existed. She did and that is why I am here. He is also real like my mother or I wouldn't be here either. 

Our personal experiences that we can't deny God exists are not transferable. You must experience them for yourselves. Once you experience that He most certainly exists, you will not be able to deny this truth either. 

I have no idea why He doesn't manifest himself to some, and yet does to others.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> It's called hope! We all share it, no matter what religion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For those in some religions their hope is sadly misplaced. :frown2:


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## 269370

Bibi1031 said:


> I have no idea where you get your info. I don't believe in God because I am going to heaven when I die. That is just a bonus. I believe in God because my life would be so much worse without him. As to those that insist He doesn't exist, many of us can't deny His existence. It will be like me denying my mother never existed. She did and that is why I am here. He is also real like my mother or I wouldn't be here either.
> 
> Our personal experiences that we can't deny God exists are not transferable. You must experience them for yourselves. Once you experience that He most certainly exists, you will not be able to deny this truth either.
> 
> I have no idea why He doesn't manifest himself to some, and yet does to others.



"That is just a bonus." 

It's a pretty big bonus I'd say!
As this thread shows (and many others), many religious fear god's judgement and believe the world would be in chaos, because no moral compass can exist without his judgement.

I don't deny his existence and would be the first to admit that he existed if I saw or felt him using any of my senses that god has supposedly given me. What's the point of hiding? I would be more than happy to acknowledge him. Maybe I'm not looking for the "right" kind of god...or maybe it is possible it is on some level a mass delusion, or rather, a coping mechanism indoctrinated in some of us by our parents or through some trauma. ('Delusion' has too many negative be connotations).

Anyone who knew your mother can verify that your mother existed. No such thing can be done about god. How do you propose we can do this objectively? Just go by feeling? 'Feeling' is often something that gives rise to superstitions, sometimes very dangerous ones.




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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> "That is just a bonus."
> 
> It's a pretty big bonus I'd say!
> As this thread shows (and many others), many religious fear god's judgement and believe the world would be in chaos, because no moral compass can exist without his judgement.
> 
> I don't deny his existence and would be the first to admit that he existed if I saw or felt him using any of my senses that god has supposedly given me. What's the point of hiding? I would be more than happy to acknowledge him. Maybe I'm not looking for the "right" kind of god...or maybe it is possible it is on some level a mass delusion, or rather, a coping mechanism indoctrinated in some of us by our parents or through some trauma. ('Delusion' has too many negative be connotations).
> 
> Anyone who knew your mother can verify that your mother existed. No such thing can be done about god. How do you propose we can do this objectively? Just go by feeling? 'Feeling' is often something that gives rise to superstitions, sometimes very dangerous ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 MY relationship with God has nothing to do with fear of punishment, its because I know He is real, He is very wise, He loves us, and life with Him is so much better than life without him.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> MY relationship with God has nothing to do with fear of punishment, its because I know He is real, and life with Him is so much better than life without him.




Yes, that's a good thing. But unfortunately for me, something that's better, doesn't automatically mean it is also true.
I think if I was offered a pill, one which would reveal the truth (world without god) or another pill that would forever make me pretend there is a personal deity, overlooking and making things better and listening to my prayers and more importantly, taking good care of my loved ones (though it's debatable whether it's actually happening: answering prayers is something that can be easily tested and as far as we know, either the line is broken or there's no one answering at the moment), I'd definitely take the latter pill.




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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Yes, that's a good thing. But unfortunately for me, something that's better, doesn't automatically mean it is also true.
> I think if I was offered a pill, one which would reveal the truth (world without god) or another pill that would forever make me pretend there is a personal deity, overlooking and making things better and listening to my prayers and more importantly, taking good care of my loved ones (though it's debatable whether it's actually happening: answering prayers is something that can be easily tested and as far as we know, either the line is broken or there's no one answering at the moment), I'd definitely take the latter pill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The only reason life is better is that He IS real. If He weren't life would be the same. I wouldnt be following Him if I wasn't 100% sure.


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## Bibi1031

[QUOTE=Diana7;17661257]The only reason life is better is that He IS real. If He weren't life would be the same. I wouldnt be following Him if I wasn't 100% sure.[/QUOTE]

QFT!

I am not stating something I am not 100% certain is true. I have no tangible proof to give anyone. I can't. I only have MY life experiences and MY personal journey with God. I don't know how many more times believers have to repeat themselves to convince anyone about something that is indeed a very individual choice and therefore an individual journey as well. 

We can offer our testimony based on personal experience and faith. These are very poor arguments for non believers or fence sitters for lack of a better term. 

These arguments go no where. Personal experiences and faith can't be quantified objectively because it not measured or justified like science per say.

As too the argument that billions are delusional because there is no proof that God exists. The fact that billions believe should at least give non believers food for thought instead of completely closing that door instead of there may be a slight probability that God does exist and is who so many believe He is: the Creator.


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## 269370

Bibi1031 said:


> [QUOTE=Diana7;17661257]The only reason life is better is that He IS real. If He weren't life would be the same. I wouldnt be following Him if I wasn't 100% sure.




QFT!



I am not stating something I am not 100% certain is true. I have no tangible proof to give anyone. I can't. I only have MY life experiences and MY personal journey with God. I don't know how many more times believers have to repeat themselves to convince anyone about something that is indeed a very individual choice and therefore an individual journey as well. 



We can offer our testimony based on personal experience and faith. These are very poor arguments for non believers or fence sitters for lack of a better term. 



These arguments go no where. Personal experiences and faith can't be quantified objectively because it not measured or justified like science per say.



As too the argument that billions are delusional because there is no proof that God exists. The fact that billions believe should at least give non believers food for thought instead of completely closing that door instead of there may be a slight probability that God does exist and is who so many believe He is: the Creator.[/QUOTE]


Again, the more people believe something, doesn't make it more true...(btw the percentage of atheists has been steadily rising). But ok, you are right that those arguments don't progress anywhere. I guess I'm just trying to understand this 'personal journey' thing. What confuses me is the being '100% convinced' about something which is just a feeling. Of course I don't completely close the door to the possibility that god may exist in one form or the other. However I don't really see you or others entertain the opposite possibility: that it's made up by the mind (yet you seem baffled that we close the doors to the possibility of god's existence, we don't. There are just no doors to close or open).
Lets see, something vaguely analogous that's just a feeling...Ok, I know I love my wife. It's just a feeling but I know I love her because without her, my life would be empty and meaningless. But SHE ALSO EXISTS physically. If she didn't exist physically, but I would still be talking to her in my house, as if she was a real thing, I think most would consider me insane. Of course I would be convinced that she was real and by some strange definition she might even be real TO ME and I might even try convincing others, but it wouldn't change the fact that an objective, neutral observer would not agree with me that she was real. I think perhaps that's what some atheists may feel.

I'm actually curious about personal testimonies and how people arrived at their faith. But I realise it might be too personal for some to share.

I do sometimes catch myself talking to myself or telling myself off or even talking to someone else, a third me. But I know it is probably a behavioural feature or left over from distant past from others before me, who perhaps believed. Or it's just a way for us to come to terms with the fact that our brain creates a third person, another ME (or god. I just don't call it god. I could start calling it god I suppose but I still wouldn't be able to come to terms with the fact that the material from the bible is so incredibly inconsistent, confusing, outdated and contradictory). 



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## Bibi1031

stixx said:


> Why?


because we were created with inquiring minds. To dismiss something that is believed by so many as non existent is like denying anything we haven't seen or experienced ourselves. An absolute NO does not correlate with the way we were created. We always seek truth, not just merely dismiss it because we have no solid proof. That would be giving up, something man as a whole never does. 

We explore space and try to get further and further out there. We explore every inch of this Earth as well. We need to continue to explore how we came to exist and dismiss nothing until fact states we are wrong. 

There is no tangible/measurable fact yet that God doesn't exist, just like there is no tangible/measurable fact that God does exist if we take human testimony and faith out of the equation.

So man's quest to seek this truth must continue until he expires his last breath...


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## Bibi1031

stixx said:


> That's ridiculous. Lots of stupid people believe in stupid things including ghosts, astrology, psychics Bigfoot, the Lockness monster, alien abductions and assorted conspiracy theories.
> 
> I have no interest in getting in line with them just because there happen to be more of them then me.


Well if you compare believing in God to all those other things...

:iagree: 

I am 100% right there with you that all those things you posted are indeed ridiculous, but believing in God is not in that realm of disbelief and ridicule. 

Next you are going to tell me believers are crazy because God is like fairies, trolls, unicorns and the like. You know all that hocus pocus crap that is in the bible and non-believers quote so dang much to reinforce their need to be right that they can indeed give up without one iota of tangible, measurable proof that God doesn't exist. >


Sorry @*Deidre* for the TJ


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## jb02157

Bibi1031 said:


> Has faith/religion helped your relationship?
> 
> Sadly no. It has helped me personally though as it should. My journey with God is personal and sadly non transferable. Not even to a spouse or a child of mine. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink even if they are thirsty....sigh.
> 
> :crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:


Can I like this 100 times!! I definitely feel the same way. They say that in a Christian marriage there's three of you in it: you, your spouse and God and the closer you get to Him the closer you get to each other. I don't find that to be true though. If you have a relationship/marriage with someone who just goes through the motions, it doesn't matter what you do or how close you get to God. It's not transferable. It requires an active positive response from your spouse and if you don't get that there's little to nothing you can do.


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## jb02157

Diana7 said:


> I have had terrible things happen in my life, we live in a world at this time full of sin and sickness, but I still know that God is good, that He loves me, and that one day things wont be like this.


It's one of the reasons that I hold out hope that maybe my marriage can be saved from all the years of damage and sorrows. No matter what I know that there is a Risen Savior and yes, that He does love me and one day things won't be as they are.


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## *Deidre*

Um, this thread really isn't for bashing believers. If you don't believe in God, please be respectful at least.


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## *Deidre*

jb02157 said:


> It's one of the reasons that I hold out hope that maybe my marriage can be saved from all the years of damage and sorrows. No matter what I know that there is a Risen Savior and yes, that He does love me and one day things won't be as they are.


Oh, wow, this is beautiful. I have tears reading this, ugh I'm at work. lol


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## EleGirl

Please stick to the topic stated the OP.

Clearly the topic of this thread is not to argue about whether or not religious beliefs are valid. If you want to discuss this, go start your own thread in the political/religion forum.

So stop the thread jack. This is a warning. Ignoring the warning will get you a time-out ban.

{Speaking as a moderator}


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## Bibi1031

Very true @EleGirl. She beat me to the punch!

We are not discussing whether God exists or not, we are discussing if religion helped or didn't help in our marriages. I am going to repeat myself here in order to get back on track with the original topic: It didn't really help in mine. :grin2:

Even though my kids are indeed believers and my daughter is married through the church and her girls are baptized through the church. She has done things that clearly shows that religion hasn't helped in her marriage. Luck in picking a God send has helped so far though.

Like @jb02157 has stated about hope for his marriage to go through a change, I have hope that my daughter's marriage reaches a path where religion did help in her marriage. She is just going through the motions, her husband isn't. The funny thing is that he was not the religious type and yet he upholds the laws of the church and the marriage with much stronger firmness than my daughter.

That is very telling indeed.


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## 269370

Bibi1031 said:


> Very true @EleGirl. She beat me to the punch!
> 
> We are not discussing whether God exists or not, we are discussing if religion helped or didn't help in our marriages. I am going to repeat myself here in order to get back on track with the original topic: It didn't really help in mine. :grin2:
> 
> Even though my kids are indeed believers and my daughter is married through the church and her girls are baptized through the church. She has done things that clearly shows that religion hasn't helped in her marriage. Luck in picking a God send has helped so far though.
> 
> Like @jb02157 has stated about hope for his marriage to go through a change, I have hope that my daughter's marriage reaches a path where religion did help in her marriage. She is just going through the motions, her husband isn't. The funny thing is that he was not the religious type and yet he upholds the laws of the church and the marriage with much stronger firmness than my daughter.
> 
> That is very telling indeed.




Do you think changing to another god would have helped?

Sorry if I appeared to be bashing something. I hadn't noticed it. How others think and where their convictions lie or come from is fascinating for me.
Maybe I appear persuaded, I'm not. Pushing an argument sometimes helps one understand the other point of view better. I am entirely open minded. Though I don't think I'm on the fence either: I continue to live my life by what I observe as being true, according to my common sense (dunno how common it is, it appears not very). If new information comes to light (like Jesus appeared in Nebraska all of a sudden, prayers help cure diseases or that consciousness can survive death etc - I'll be the first to change my mind!)

To stay on topic, it would make for a very short thread: according to statistics religion doesn't help a marriage to stay intact. In fact, it's the opposite, if taken at face value (statistics are prone to draw the wrong conclusions from though. Many factors need to be taken into account). It seems for some reason god doesn't seem to favour those couples who are keen to be with him. 



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## 269370

jb02157 said:


> It's one of the reasons that I hold out hope that maybe my marriage can be saved from all the years of damage and sorrows. No matter what I know that there is a Risen Savior and yes, that He does love me and one day things won't be as they are.




I don't know your story and it's a complete shot in the dark but maybe it's a sign that you might benefit from proactively finding someone who deserves your love instead of hoping that things might improve on their own through the god route? 
Many people can find happiness at any stage in their life.


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## *Deidre*

I don't disagree with that ^^ 

I view my faith now as guiding my life, but as a believer, I believe that God gave us the capacity to figure things out, to discern if someone or a relationship is right for us. If you're chronically being abused and cheated on by your spouse, it seems likely that it wouldn't be God's best plan for that believer, imo. But, I can't speak for others. 

For myself personally, cheating is a deal breaker in a marriage. It might not be someone else's deal breaker, but I feel that a lot of problematic behaviors have to exist for cheating to occur - lying, deception, manipulation, adultery, etc. And all of that would probably have to go on for a long time before I'd figure out I was being cheated on or before the cheater comes clean, and confesses to me. So, that's why it's a deal breaker, I simply don't want to remain with an abuser, and in many ways, cheating is abuse. That said, I know people who reconcile, and there are positive stories on here of reconciliation, but sometimes, I can't help but think that people who are codependent, end up staying in abusive marriages, and excuse it as ''God's will.'' So, I see that side of it from an atheist view, but even as a believer, I don't believe in staying in toxic relationships and claiming that it's ''God's will'' for your life.


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## Bibi1031

inmyprime said:


> Do you think changing to another god would have helped?


Not for me because the God I worship is the only God that exists to me. It is the only God that exists or existed for both my Xs as well. God can't be responsible for our choices though. My first X was not a practicing Catholic like I was. My family made sure I had all my sacraments done in a timely fashion such as baptism, communion, confirmation etc. I was also brought up to attend mass every Sunday/Saturday and to confess my sins at least twice a year in order to receive communion which is why attending mass to Catholics is quite important. The Lord's supper is huge for us. My first X didn't do communion because he couldn't be bothered to go to catechism in order to fulfill that sacrament at around age 7 when football, basketball or baseball practice was in the way of that.:smile2:

He fulfilled the sacraments needed for marriage in order for us to marry through the Catholic faith in Mexico though. we attended mass regularly especially once the kids came because my X did believe in God and the church, he was just too busy to be bothered when he was young. So my kids knew about God pretty much since birth and the religion we were all born into.

When the **** hit the fan on d-day, shortly after I seeked help for my 21 year marriage from our local priest. No help was given and I was devastated and angry enough to change my religion, but never God though. 

God was my rock at that time. I don't think I could have had the courage to stop my X from depleting our assets if I hadn't acted quickly instead of being a sad wreck. God does talk to us, especially in our times of need. I knew my marriage was gone and that helped me to hope for the best, but took action as if he was never coming back. He never came back, but I got him to stop throwing away our money on the AP.0

2nd X was not Catholic but he was Christian. He was Catholic as a child and very active til his first wife died. He was an altar boy and married his first wife through the Catholic faith. I met him when he was a widower. He was a deacon at his church and very active in that other Christian faith too. He suffers from BPD though, I didn't figure this out until a little over a year ago, and a lot of confusion and damage was done by both of us to each of us.:frown2: 

I have a sister that is married to a non-believer. I don't think I could be with someone that doesn't believe in my God, let alone no God. My choice and a very personal one as well.


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## DTO

I am not well versed in religions other than Christianity and so won't comment on them. I do believe that following Scriptural guidelines for marriage can help, if both partners follow them earnestly.

The problem seems to be that people tend to cherry-pick the parts they like and ignore the parts they don't, without realizing (or perhaps not caring) that marital privileges are accompanied by responsibilities. Example:
* A lady will cite Scripture in insisting that her husband have eyes for her only (because strictly speaking lusting after another lady is against the rules) but ignores her duty her meet his sexual need.
* A lady will claim that her husband is failing by not taking responsibility for the family, but in truth she is thwarting his leadership by "driving from the back seat", rather than supporting his vision. You can see this where a lady would, let's say, want her husband to lead the family to financial security but objects when he asks her to reign in unnecessary spending.


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## 269370

DTO said:


> I am not well versed in religions other than Christianity and so won't comment on them. I do believe that following Scriptural guidelines for marriage can help, if both partners follow them earnestly.
> 
> The problem seems to be that people tend to cherry-pick the parts they like and ignore the parts they don't, without realizing (or perhaps not caring) that marital privileges are accompanied by responsibilities. Example:
> * A lady will cite Scripture in insisting that her husband have eyes for her only (because strictly speaking lusting after another lady is against the rules) but ignores her duty her meet his sexual need.
> * A lady will claim that her husband is failing by not taking responsibility for the family, but in truth she is thwarting his leadership by "driving from the back seat", rather than supporting his vision. You can see this where a lady would, let's say, want her husband to lead the family to financial security but objects when he asks her to reign in unnecessary spending.




Are these things actually in the bible? (About having a duty to meet his sexual needs). Seems very specific...and prescriptive.
If so, I might give it another read 




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## Diana7

jb02157 said:


> It's one of the reasons that I hold out hope that maybe my marriage can be saved from all the years of damage and sorrows. No matter what I know that there is a Risen Savior and yes, that He does love me and one day things won't be as they are.


 Whatever happens He gives us fresh new starts and new beginnings. We have both had long marriages end in very painful ways, but we now have a great marriage together of 12 years this year. God restores what we have lost if we trust Him.
Ultimately we can trust Him and know that Jesus Christ has saved us.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Are these things actually in the bible? (About having a duty to meet his sexual needs). Seems very specific...and prescriptive.
> If so, I might give it another read
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Yep
1 Corinthians 7:5New Living Translation (NLT)
5 Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

God is very practical and sensible. :smile2:


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## Diana7

DTO said:


> I am not well versed in religions other than Christianity and so won't comment on them. I do believe that following Scriptural guidelines for marriage can help, if both partners follow them earnestly.
> 
> The problem seems to be that people tend to cherry-pick the parts they like and ignore the parts they don't, without realizing (or perhaps not caring) that marital privileges are accompanied by responsibilities. Example:
> * A lady will cite Scripture in insisting that her husband have eyes for her only (because strictly speaking lusting after another lady is against the rules) but ignores her duty her meet his sexual need.
> * A lady will claim that her husband is failing by not taking responsibility for the family, but in truth she is thwarting his leadership by "driving from the back seat", rather than supporting his vision. You can see this where a lady would, let's say, want her husband to lead the family to financial security but objects when he asks her to reign in unnecessary spending.


Well if they do that then they are failing as a Christian wife. Remember that we are not perfect, far from it. 

My husband has very strong views on what he will look at. So no porn and no staring at semi naked women etc etc. I also made a decision when I married him that I would never refuse him sex and so far I haven't. if he did look at porn for example, I wouldn't feel loved or respected, and sex wouldn't be the same for me at all. It works both ways.


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## DTO

inmyprime said:


> Are these things actually in the bible? (About having a duty to meet his sexual needs). Seems very specific...and prescriptive.
> If so, I might give it another read
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, just to be clear, the requirement is gender-neutral. Both husbands and wives have this duty to each other.

But yes it's in there. Essentially, the author (the apostle Paul) writes that it would be preferable to remain single and serve God (as he has done), because once you are married you need to be concerned with serving your spouse instead of Him only. But, not everyone has the ability to be happily celibate as "his own gift".

That being so, it is better to marry and get that need met by your spouse instead of sinfully. Knowing people get married (at least in part) to have that need met, you owe that to your spouse. Provide enough so that the spouse is not tempted to stray. Abstain only by mutual consent and only long enough for fasting and prayer.

I am accustomed to reading the New King James Version. Note the use of the phrase "do not deprive":

*1 Corinthians 7New King James Version (NKJV)
*
*Principles of Marriage*

7*Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me:
It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2*Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3*Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4*The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5*Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6*But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7*For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.


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## DTO

Diana7 said:


> Well if they do that then they are failing as a Christian wife. Remember that we are not perfect, far from it.


Agreed. But, I would argue that simple human failings are not the problem. Being in enmity with Scripture is the real issue.

Even self-professed "strong" and "faithful" Christians, when confronted with their failings, do not adjust their behavior. They make excuses ("there's too much other stuff to do"), deflect the argument with irrelevant ("you're not the husband/wife I had in mind either"), decide that particular passage in the Bible is not meant to be taken literally or does not apply to them personally, etc.

The key is whether or not one is willing to be faithful enough to abide by the above, and humble enough to accept a reminder / gentle rebuke when you are falling short.


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## DTO

DTO said:


> Agreed. But, I would argue that simple human failings are not the problem. Being in enmity with Scripture is the real issue.
> 
> Even self-professed "strong" and "faithful" Christians, when confronted with their failings, do not adjust their behavior. They make excuses ("there's too much other stuff to do"), deflect the argument with irrelevant ("you're not the husband/wife I had in mind either"), decide that particular passage in the Bible is not meant to be taken literally or does not apply to them personally, etc.
> 
> The key is whether or not one is willing to be faithful enough to abide by the above, and humble enough to accept a reminder / gentle rebuke when you are falling short.


I just wanted to add that I don't mean to come off like an arrogant ass who pounds a Bible and says "read it and obey"; I am FAR from that. Also, I understand that this part of Scripture has some difficult material (especially if you are the low-drive spouse). You owe your spouse sex; moreover, the LD spouse must adjust to the need of the HD spouse.

You don't get to dictate what constitutes your spouse's "need" - what quantity of sex or level of involvement should be sufficient for one's spouse. A low-drive man or woman who really only wants it once or twice a month could have a like-minded spouse and be considered a faithful Christian. That same man or woman married to a significantly higher-drive spouse and failing to meet the need is now a sinner and "depriver".

But those are the requirements. And, personally, I think they're that way for good reason. If you want your spouse to truly have eyes for you only, then you have that state of existence a rewarding one. Whether you provide that level of LOVING service through attraction and a matching drive, or because you want to honor the relationship and your faith, or through sheer determination, you must make it worth your spouse's while, so to speak.


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## Diana7

DTO said:


> I just wanted to add that I don't mean to come off like an arrogant ass who pounds a Bible and says "read it and obey"; I am FAR from that. Also, I understand that this part of Scripture has some difficult material (especially if you are the low-drive spouse). You owe your spouse sex; moreover, the LD spouse must adjust to the need of the HD spouse.
> 
> You don't get to dictate what constitutes your spouse's "need" - what quantity of sex or level of involvement should be sufficient for one's spouse. A low-drive man or woman who really only wants it once or twice a month could have a like-minded spouse and be considered a faithful Christian. That same man or woman married to a significantly higher-drive spouse and failing to meet the need is now a sinner and "depriver".
> 
> But those are the requirements. And, personally, I think they're that way for good reason. If you want your spouse to truly have eyes for you only, then you have that state of existence a rewarding one. Whether you provide that level of LOVING service through attraction and a matching drive, or because you want to honor the relationship and your faith, or through sheer determination, you must make it worth your spouse's while, so to speak.


As I see it the sex drives are really irrelevant. If you love and respect each other, you will reach a compromise on this. One may have to have sex more than they want and one a little less. We can all have sex whether we 'feel' like it or not, to be loving and giving to our spouse. Its not all about us, but about them and the marriage. 

Having said this, a spouse who doesn't have sex as much as they would like, doesn't have free licence to then act badly and look at porn or stare at people of the opposite sex. We need to act properly regardless of how our spouse acts, and not excuse our bad behaviour and blame it on them.

Also I feel strongly that if one spouse pressures their partner to do things in sex that they find deeply offensive, that is very wrong. I would never expect my husband to do anything that he found troubling. I have a friend that happened to and it badly damaged their marriage.


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## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Are these things actually in the bible? (About having a duty to meet his sexual needs). Seems very specific...and prescriptive.
> If so, I might give it another read
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


lol!! I believe it is written that when a man and woman marry, they become one flesh, and that they should desire to please each other. Of course, if someone isn't feeling well, etc they shouldn't feel obligated, but if you love your partner, the idea is that you'd genuinely want to please them, sexually.


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## 269370

I have to say, the bible is growing on me 

I wish they taught those things in schools (about pleasing the partner sexually being an important part of a relationship). I believe 80% of marital problems would go away if this was made clear early on. It took me years to find out that feeling pain after being rejected sexually is not supposed to be embarrassing but pretty normal. Nor is asking for sex (though I still can't do it).

"5 Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

At times it was so bad that I am pretty sure that if satan appeared to tempt me, I would probably grab him by the horns and have sex with him...

Anyways, that Paul guy, seems like a cool dude. I am just not sure about this:

"It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2*Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."

Who is a man then supposed to be touching, if not a woman? Is it better to touch a man or what is he driving at? (I totally respect his preferences but wouldn't necessarily push it onto others, if they are not inclined). Why is it "immoral" to be sexual? Everyone and their dog are at it and it's perfectly natural. Where does morality come into it? We don't say that it is immoral o eat. Why can't you serve god and still touch a woman occasionally? In fact, the only time my wife ever talks about god is when she lets me "touch" her/she orgasms ("oh god" etc). Don't see why it's immoral.

Anyway, seems like lack of sexual reciprocation is as old as the bible...

I agree with @DTO that if a woman (or man) doesn't want to reciprocate, she/he will find an excuse not to do it, regardless what the bible says (and whether she believes in it or not).

However I am not sure I would be comfortable if I knew that my wife was providing a 'loving service'. I'd rather she actually wanted it in the first place. But I suppose a loving service is as good a place to start as any...


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## Maricha75

@inmyprime when a spouse is doing a "loving service", it means that it is something he or she WANTS to do. It isn't solely about keeping you happy. They are happy, too. 

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## DTO

inmyprime said:


> "It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2*Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."
> 
> Who is a man then supposed to be touching, if not a woman? Is it better to touch a man or what is he driving at? (I totally respect his preferences but wouldn't necessarily push it onto others, if they are not inclined). Why is it "immoral" to be sexual? Everyone and their dog are at it and it's perfectly natural. Where does morality come into it? We don't say that it is immoral o eat. Why can't you serve god and still touch a woman occasionally? In fact, the only time my wife ever talks about god is when she lets me "touch" her/she orgasms ("oh god" etc). Don't see why it's immoral.


It is immoral to have sex with someone who is not your spouse (which must, by Biblical definition, be someone of the opposite gender).

The message here is that there's nothing wrong with remaining single. He seems to be that way (even though the Bible does not explicitly state this) and prefers others would be like him, because those men would be able to focus on serving God and not have a spouse/family for which he is responsible. But he acknowledges that not everyone has the gift of being content in celibacy; if you do not have that gift, go ahead and get married to have sex without immorality.

Then he lays out the responsibilities regarding sex in marriage. Basically, those rules affirm that having moral sex is a big motivator to marry; that being the case, you must take responsibility for your spouse's sexual happiness.

The implication (which is huge) is that if you don't have that burning for sex (which means you'll probably struggle to meet your partner's need), then you should stay single. Getting married to knock out a couple of kids, have financial help, not be alone, etc. are not good reasons.


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## DTO

Diana7 said:


> As I see it the sex drives are really irrelevant. If you love and respect each other, you will reach a compromise on this. One may have to have sex more than they want and one a little less. We can all have sex whether we 'feel' like it or not, to be loving and giving to our spouse. Its not all about us, but about them and the marriage.


Agreed.



Diana7 said:


> Having said this, a spouse who doesn't have sex as much as they would like, doesn't have free licence to then act badly and look at porn or stare at people of the opposite sex. We need to act properly regardless of how our spouse acts, and not excuse our bad behaviour and blame it on them.


Agreed. Although I would add, a spouse is not entitled to "behold the mote" in the other's eye before "considering the beam" in his or her own.

For instance: My ex was unhappy because her lack of sexual provision caused me to distance myself. As part of that, I stopped asking her for sex and at some point she accused me of having an affair. That in turn pissed me off, not only because it was untrue but also because if she is not going to meet my need, then she has no right to expect that I simply leave the need unmet until she decides she wants to be my wife again. I had, over the years, passed up offers. However I did so out of personal integrity, not because I owed her anything.



Diana7 said:


> Also I feel strongly that if one spouse pressures their partner to do things in sex that they find deeply offensive, that is very wrong. I would never expect my husband to do anything that he found troubling. I have a friend that happened to and it badly damaged their marriage.


That depends on the level of pressure (I would never force anyone to do something) and how much is off the table. Again thinking of my ex, her preference was once a month, intercourse only - no foreplay, oral, toys, etc. She was absolutely unreasonable. I never forced anything on her but I made it known through my words and actions that the status quo (her being treated well while I was treated indifferently) needed to change.

She resented that the lack of sex impacted how I treated her. But, so what? If me insisting on decent sex from her badly damaged our marriage, then it's not much of a marriage and I'm not risking much to be treated well.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I have to say, the bible is growing on me
> 
> I wish they taught those things in schools (about pleasing the partner sexually being an important part of a relationship). I believe 80% of marital problems would go away if this was made clear early on. It took me years to find out that feeling pain after being rejected sexually is not supposed to be embarrassing but pretty normal. Nor is asking for sex (though I still can't do it).
> 
> "5 Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
> 
> At times it was so bad that I am pretty sure that if satan appeared to tempt me, I would probably grab him by the horns and have sex with him...
> 
> Anyways, that Paul guy, seems like a cool dude. I am just not sure about this:
> 
> "It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2*Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."
> 
> Who is a man then supposed to be touching, if not a woman? Is it better to touch a man or what is he driving at? (I totally respect his preferences but wouldn't necessarily push it onto others, if they are not inclined). Why is it "immoral" to be sexual? Everyone and their dog are at it and it's perfectly natural. Where does morality come into it? We don't say that it is immoral o eat. Why can't you serve god and still touch a woman occasionally? In fact, the only time my wife ever talks about god is when she lets me "touch" her/she orgasms ("oh god" etc). Don't see why it's immoral.
> 
> Anyway, seems like lack of sexual reciprocation is as old as the bible...
> 
> I agree with @DTO that if a woman (or man) doesn't want to reciprocate, she/he will find an excuse not to do it, regardless what the bible says (and whether she believes in it or not).
> 
> However I am not sure I would be comfortable if I knew that my wife was providing a 'loving service'. I'd rather she actually wanted it in the first place. But I suppose a loving service is as good a place to start as any...


I think that Paul was basically saying that if you want a sexual relationship then you get married. Sex in marriage is amazing, but for a Christian sex outside marriage is a no no. I think its very wise advise when you think of all the awful consequences of sex before marriage(abortion, rampant STD's etc)or of adultery(lives destroyed, families breaking up, divorce etc). 

Gods advise and teaching is always very wise and for our own good.:smile2:


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## Diana7

DTO said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. Although I would add, a spouse is not entitled to "behold the mote" in the other's eye before "considering the beam" in his or her own.
> 
> For instance: My ex was unhappy because her lack of sexual provision caused me to distance myself. As part of that, I stopped asking her for sex and at some point she accused me of having an affair. That in turn pissed me off, not only because it was untrue but also because if she is not going to meet my need, then she has no right to expect that I simply leave the need unmet until she decides she wants to be my wife again. I had, over the years, passed up offers. However I did so out of personal integrity, not because I owed her anything.
> 
> 
> 
> That depends on the level of pressure (I would never force anyone to do something) and how much is off the table. Again thinking of my ex, her preference was once a month, intercourse only - no foreplay, oral, toys, etc. She was absolutely unreasonable. I never forced anything on her but I made it known through my words and actions that the status quo (her being treated well while I was treated indifferently) needed to change.
> 
> She resented that the lack of sex impacted how I treated her. But, so what? If me insisting on decent sex from her badly damaged our marriage, then it's not much of a marriage and I'm not risking much to be treated well.


Your account seems similar to what happened to my husband with his first wife. She was very controlling with sex, IE we have sex when 'I' say so, and he was rejected so many times that in the end he almost stopped asking. He too became distant emotionally, and then she accused him of not meeting her 'emotional needs'. She was causing him to be that way and then complained about it, so selfish. That's why when we married, I made the decision to never say no to him sexually, and we have a really good marriage, and he is very happy. 

I do know someone who deprived her husband of sex for many years and then complained because she thinks he had an affair. What did she expect?????She was a Christian and was disobeying Gods clear teaching. 

We have a good and varied sex life, but we both have a few things that for us are completely off the table, for example porn use and anal sex. Fortunately for us we agree on what these things are so its not a problem. 

Is you ex a Christian?


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## 269370

Maricha75 said:


> @inmyprime when a spouse is doing a "loving service", it means that it is something he or she WANTS to do. It isn't solely about keeping you happy. They are happy, too.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Perhaps it's the word "service" that seems to imply some kind of obligation (and an obligation seems to imply something a spouse _has_ to do, rather than _wants_ to do.)

As always with the bible, it seems it hasn't been written by lawyers (with lots of footnotes and unambiguous words) and we have to interpret it the way we feel we want to interpret it.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I think that Paul was basically saying that if you want a sexual relationship then you get married. Sex in marriage is amazing, but for a Christian sex outside marriage is a no no. I think its very wise advise when you think of all the awful consequences of sex before marriage(abortion, rampant STD's etc)or of adultery(lives destroyed, families breaking up, divorce etc).
> 
> Gods advise and teaching is always very wise and for our own good.:smile2:


Or you could just perform a "loving service" to a woman and then marry her (as I did)...without the need for STDs and abortions...I guess that won't get me out of hell because we weren't married.
Actually we weren't married in a church either so our marriage probably continues to be sinful :-(

I like the use of the phrase "not having authority over your body"  i can see a loophole there: "honey, I had no authority over my body this morning and my body had sex with the maid...." "that's ok, the gardener took authority over my body and parked his lawnmower inside my bushes...".


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## 269370

DTO said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. Although I would add, a spouse is not entitled to "behold the mote" in the other's eye before "considering the beam" in his or her own.
> 
> For instance: My ex was unhappy because her lack of sexual provision caused me to distance myself. As part of that, I stopped asking her for sex and at some point she accused me of having an affair. That in turn pissed me off, not only because it was untrue but also because if she is not going to meet my need, then she has no right to expect that I simply leave the need unmet until she decides she wants to be my wife again. I had, over the years, passed up offers. However I did so out of personal integrity, not because I owed her anything.
> 
> 
> 
> That depends on the level of pressure (I would never force anyone to do something) and how much is off the table. Again thinking of my ex, her preference was once a month, intercourse only - no foreplay, oral, toys, etc. She was absolutely unreasonable. I never forced anything on her but I made it known through my words and actions that the status quo (her being treated well while I was treated indifferently) needed to change.
> 
> She resented that the lack of sex impacted how I treated her. But, so what? If me insisting on decent sex from her badly damaged our marriage, then it's not much of a marriage and I'm not risking much to be treated well.


Yep, it's a vicious circle that needs to be broken with one spouse having a wake up call (some never do). I often see it with men (happened to me too, but fortunately my wife realised at some stage that it is an essential part of a relationship and it's really tough for a guy to remain sane while being deprived of sex).


----------



## jld

inmyprime said:


> Yep, it's a vicious circle that needs to be broken with one spouse having a wake up call (some never do). I often see it with men (happened to me too, but fortunately my wife realised at some stage that it is an essential part of a relationship and* it's really tough for a guy to remain sane while being deprived of sex*).


I think a wife just sets herself up for trouble by not having plentiful sex with her husband.

Make your own life easier by meeting his need.


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## 269370

jld said:


> I think a wife just sets herself up for trouble by not having plentiful sex with her husband.
> 
> Make your own life easier by meeting his need.


Amen to that!

But how much of a bother is it actually to have sex with your husband if your are completely not in the mood? Doesn't the woman at some point become resentful if she doesn't really want to do it? Or even feels violated? It goes like this: "do you realise that we haven't made love for a week and it's driving my nuts, nuts?" She: "do you realise I have had this massive headache and no sleep? We only did it on the <precise date,year>, how often do you need it?. Go ahead, **** me, I know you have no regard for my needs". 
This is a bit extreme but I imagine this is how it plays out in many households...

Because the change has been quite dramatic with my wife (sometimes she would ignore me for a week or more, i realise it's worse for other men but I start climbing walls after 2-3 days. I just find my wife very hot for some reason), but now she's very "regular" but I have a feeling it's because she feels she has to provide a "service" (sometimes). I am not sure I am comfortable with that. The problem is that you can't "make" someone want something. Sometimes it is not really a choice but a biological function of the body. A bit like eating something after you are completely full. You might throw up!

The bible doesn't seem to make many distinctions nor is it very subtle in nuance...


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## jld

It is easy for me to advise women to have plentiful sex with their husbands because my own husband generally inspires that attitude in me. But if a man is not inspiring that attitude . . . then it would not be surprising that the woman does not want to have sex with him.

Men, inspire your wives!


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## 269370

jld said:


> It is easy for me to advise women to have plentiful sex with their husbands because my own husband generally inspires that attitude in me. But if a man is not inspiring that attitude . . . then it would not be surprising that the woman does not want to have sex with him.
> 
> Men, inspire your wives!


Ah here we go then  Unless men are inspiring the attitudes of their wives properly, I guess this particular bible verse does not apply about pleasing your husband's need 

(I know what you are saying, I am just making a point that bible may not be the cure for all, unfortunately. Though it would be nice if it was. People have a bias to rationalise pretty much anything in their favour.)


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Perhaps it's the word "service" that seems to imply some kind of obligation (and an obligation seems to imply something a spouse _has_ to do, rather than _wants_ to do.)
> 
> As always with the bible, it seems it hasn't been written by lawyers (with lots of footnotes and unambiguous words) and we have to interpret it the way we feel we want to interpret it.


Well life is full of obligations isnt it. I do feel that as a wife I have an obligation to have regular sex with my husband. Its not always about what we 'feel' is it.
As it happens I really like having sex with him and I instigate it about 50% of the time, but there are always times when maybe its not what I 'feel' like doing at the time, but I can just say yes anyway, for him. Give and take.


----------



## Diana7

jld said:


> It is easy for me to advise women to have plentiful sex with their husbands because my own husband generally inspires that attitude in me. But if a man is not inspiring that attitude . . . then it would not be surprising that the woman does not want to have sex with him.
> 
> Men, inspire your wives!


Yes, but the Bible doesn't say that we should do things IF our partner does this, that or the other. My husbands ex always said, well if you love me as Christ loves the church I will respect you. No pressure there then.

My job is to respect him because he is my husband, not because he is doing everything I want him to or is perfect. Its easy to see the failings in our partner, while ignoring the many failings that we have. As it happens its really easy to respect him because he is such a great man, but she clearly didnt see it that way.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Or you could just perform a "loving service" to a woman and then marry her (as I did)...without the need for STDs and abortions...I guess that won't get me out of hell because we weren't married.
> Actually we weren't married in a church either so our marriage probably continues to be sinful :-(
> 
> I like the use of the phrase "not having authority over your body"  i can see a loophole there: "honey, I had no authority over my body this morning and my body had sex with the maid...." "that's ok, the gardener took authority over my body and parked his lawnmower inside my bushes...".


I think it means that when you marry you are one, and must realise that your body is to be used for the good of the marriage which includes regular sex. 

We weren't married in a church, neither of us had a church at that time, that makes no difference, God is everywhere. 

Sex before marriage is like anything else, it can be forgiven. :smile2:

I regret having sex with the one guy before I met my first husband, I also regret having sex with my first husband(not a Christian) before we married, but that's in the past and I have been forgiven now.I wasn't following God as I should have been then, but this time we both wanted to wait till we married first, my husband has never had sex outside marriage.


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I think it means that when you marry you are one, and must realise that your body is to be used for the good of the marriage which includes regular sex.
> 
> We weren't married in a church, neither of us had a church at that time, that makes no difference, God is everywhere.
> 
> Sex before marriage is like anything else, it can be forgiven. :smile2:
> 
> I regret having sex with the one guy before I met my first husband, I also regret having sex with my first husband(not a Christian) before we married, but that's in the past and I have been forgiven now.I wasn't following God as I should have been then, but this time we both wanted to wait till we married first, my husband has never had sex outside marriage.


I don't know...the amount of sex and level of kinkiness in the sex before we were married...I am pretty sure I should be punished for it a little bit more before getting forgiven  But i don't regret it for a second! (Maybe that's the problem). I think it made us both realise that we were really sexually compatible (except she's a bit on the lower drive side).


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> Yes, but the Bible doesn't say that we should do things IF our partner does this, that or the other. My husbands ex always said, well if you love me as Christ loves the church I will respect you. No pressure there then.
> 
> My job is to respect him because he is my husband, not because he is doing everything I want him to or is perfect. Its easy to see the failings in our partner, while ignoring the many failings that we have. As it happens its really easy to respect him because he is such a great man, but she clearly didnt see it that way.


I think the point is that there are no hard and fast rules and the bible cannot solve this problem by providing simplistic (even if relevant) rules. If you "unlove" your husband to a degree that you can't stand having sex with him or just can't stand him in general, it seems unreasonable to stay and suffer through the marriage just because the bible says you must be an obedient wife. What women often do is (and forgive me for the horrible generalization) they sometimes push the husband to have a reason to leave them ("he cheated on me", "he has become a porn addict" etc). Before my head gets bitten off, I am not saying this happens all the time and for this reason solely, I just mean that in scenarios where it is *the woman* who doesn't want to stay in the marriage, manipulating the husband out of it, it would be much fairer and more honest to actually just make the first step and leave him (even if that means spending eternity in hell) or tell him the truth about her feelings rather than staying together in misery. But that sort of judgement is only possible if you are not 'constrained' by the word of god, it seems.


----------



## jld

inmyprime said:


> I think the point is that there are no hard and fast rules and the bible cannot solve this problem by providing simplistic (even if relevant) rules. If you "unlove" your husband to a degree that you can't stand having sex with him or just can't stand him in general, it seems unreasonable to stay and suffer through the marriage just because the bible says you must be an obedient wife. What women often do is (and forgive me for the horrible generalization) they sometimes push the husband to have a reason to leave them ("he cheated on me", "he has become a porn addict" etc). Before my head gets bitten off, I am not saying this happens all the time and for this reason solely, I just mean that in scenarios where it is *the woman* who doesn't want to stay in the marriage, manipulating the husband out of it, it would be much fairer and more honest to actually just make the first step and leave him (even if that means spending eternity in hell) or tell him the truth about her feelings rather than staying together in misery. But that sort of judgement is only possible if you are not 'constrained' by the word of god, it seems.


Not wise to take religion too far, imo. But there are elements of it that are inspiring.


----------



## jb02157

Diana7 said:


> Whatever happens He gives us fresh new starts and new beginnings. We have both had long marriages end in very painful ways, but we now have a great marriage together of 12 years this year. God restores what we have lost if we trust Him.
> Ultimately we can trust Him and know that Jesus Christ has saved us.


So very true! He does give us fresh starts, He's done this numerous times for me in my career and I hope He is able to restore my marriage. I have to trust Him to do that. There is no other way it can done, we have to learn that we have to let Him do what looks impossible to us. I'm glad to hear about the new start He's given you.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I don't know...the amount of sex and level of kinkiness in the sex before we were married...I am pretty sure I should be punished for it a little bit more before getting forgiven  But i don't regret it for a second! (Maybe that's the problem). I think it made us both realise that we were really sexually compatible (except she's a bit on the lower drive side).


Well yes if you aren't sorry then you wont ask for forgiveness will you. I regretted it because I know that it didn't help me spiritually or in any other way. 
Otherwise anything can be forgiven if the person is really repentant. 

You dont need to have sex to know that as people you are compatible. We discussed it a lot before we married, and besides that anything can be worked out if both are willing and determined.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I think the point is that there are no hard and fast rules and the bible cannot solve this problem by providing simplistic (even if relevant) rules. If you "unlove" your husband to a degree that you can't stand having sex with him or just can't stand him in general, it seems unreasonable to stay and suffer through the marriage just because the bible says you must be an obedient wife. What women often do is (and forgive me for the horrible generalization) they sometimes push the husband to have a reason to leave them ("he cheated on me", "he has become a porn addict" etc). Before my head gets bitten off, I am not saying this happens all the time and for this reason solely, I just mean that in scenarios where it is *the woman* who doesn't want to stay in the marriage, manipulating the husband out of it, it would be much fairer and more honest to actually just make the first step and leave him (even if that means spending eternity in hell) or tell him the truth about her feelings rather than staying together in misery. But that sort of judgement is only possible if you are not 'constrained' by the word of god, it seems.


Well i agree to a point, my husband ex wanted out of her marriage, she had met another man and made up all these lies about him saying he was 'emotionally abusive' etc(he hasn't got an abusive bone in his body). I wish she had just been honest and said look, I am not very happy, I want out to be with this other man, instead of blaming him and attacking his very good character. 
BTW divorced doesn't send you to hell. 

Having said that, there is a lot that can be done to improve a marriage and restore the love that was lost IF both are willing.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> Well yes if you aren't sorry then you wont ask for forgiveness will you. I regretted it because I know that it didn't help me spiritually or in any other way.
> Otherwise anything can be forgiven if the person is really repentant.
> 
> You dont need to have sex to know that as people you are compatible. We discussed it a lot before we married, and besides that anything can be worked out if both are willing and determined.


I think I wrote earlier that I wasn't sure discussions can determine compatibility (or keep talking about it will make both so horny that they will rush and get married just for sex' sake). You need to make sure the key fits into the keyhole correctly to "unlock" the passion 

What about doing other things, besides sex? Is this allowed before marriage. We actually didn't have much sex (PIV wasn't so good for her back then or maybe I was no good at it then...one, two three, oops, finished  Now she prefers that to the other stuff.

I suppose I would be repentant/sorry if I understood why having sex in our case was harming us in any way. We took our time, didn't get married till we finished studies/lived together for a while. The timing seemed all natural. Also didn't feel rushed into marriage just 'cos we were horny....

We also didn't sleep around or get any of those STDs....


----------



## DTO

Diana7 said:


> DTO said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. Although I would add, a spouse is not entitled to "behold the mote" in the other's eye before "considering the beam" in his or her own.
> 
> For instance: My ex was unhappy because her lack of sexual provision caused me to distance myself. As part of that, I stopped asking her for sex and at some point she accused me of having an affair. That in turn pissed me off, not only because it was untrue but also because if she is not going to meet my need, then she has no right to expect that I simply leave the need unmet until she decides she wants to be my wife again. I had, over the years, passed up offers. However I did so out of personal integrity, not because I owed her anything.
> 
> 
> 
> That depends on the level of pressure (I would never force anyone to do something) and how much is off the table. Again thinking of my ex, her preference was once a month, intercourse only - no foreplay, oral, toys, etc. She was absolutely unreasonable. I never forced anything on her but I made it known through my words and actions that the status quo (her being treated well while I was treated indifferently) needed to change.
> 
> She resented that the lack of sex impacted how I treated her. But, so what? If me insisting on decent sex from her badly damaged our marriage, then it's not much of a marriage and I'm not risking much to be treated well.
> 
> 
> 
> Your account seems similar to what happened to my husband with his first wife. She was very controlling with sex, IE we have sex when 'I' say so, and he was rejected so many times that in the end he almost stopped asking. He too became distant emotionally, and then she accused him of not meeting her 'emotional needs'. She was causing him to be that way and then complained about it, so selfish. That's why when we married, I made the decision to never say no to him sexually, and we have a really good marriage, and he is very happy.
> 
> I do know someone who deprived her husband of sex for many years and then complained because she thinks he had an affair. What did she expect?????She was a Christian and was disobeying Gods clear teaching.
> 
> We have a good and varied sex life, but we both have a few things that for us are completely off the table, for example porn use and anal sex. Fortunately for us we agree on what these things are so its not a problem.
> 
> Is you ex a Christian?
Click to expand...

She would still say she is. Which is odd, because she has zero regrets about withholding sex, providing bad sex, squandering our money, etc.

Moreover, because she considered herself a strong Christian, I sought our pastor's advice. As a result, the church applied Matthew 18 discipline and apparently that was my fault as well. She said I humiliated her (she was okay with the behavior but not okay with being exposed).

The real story us that prior to condemning me for going to our pastor, she had ALSO gone to him disparaging me. She was told her story was not credible, essentially. Our pastor advised her but she blew him off.

Long story short, she stopped attending that church and told them she never wanted to hear from them again. She felt that loyalty to her was more important than being biblically correct.

Some Christian.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I think I wrote earlier that I wasn't sure discussions can determine compatibility (or keep talking about it will make both so horny that they will rush and get married just for sex' sake). You need to make sure the key fits into the keyhole correctly to "unlock" the passion
> 
> What about doing other things, besides sex? Is this allowed before marriage. We actually didn't have much sex (PIV wasn't so good for her back then or maybe I was no good at it then...one, two three, oops, finished  Now she prefers that to the other stuff.
> 
> I suppose I would be repentant/sorry if I understood why having sex in our case was harming us in any way. We took our time, didn't get married till we finished studies/lived together for a while. The timing seemed all natural. Also didn't feel rushed into marriage just 'cos we were horny....
> 
> We also didn't sleep around or get any of those STDs....


Well we didn't do anything much past kissing and cuddling because of the temptation to go further. We didn't see each other naked for example. 
A young couple in my family dated for nearly 3 years before marriage. She was still studying and they couldn't afford to get a place together till she was in work, and they still waited for sex. God would warn them if they went a bit far. He is very wise.

We married after 9 months but it wasn't rushed due to sex. I wanted to marry him after a week! At the age we were then, late 40's, there didn't seem much point in hanging around. 

I believe that with love, commitment and determination, any sexual issue can be sorted out.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> Well we didn't do anything much past kissing and cuddling because of the temptation to go further. We didn't see each other naked for example.
> 
> A young couple in my family dated for nearly 3 years before marriage. She was still studying and they couldn't afford to get a place together till she was in work, and they still waited for sex. God would warn them if they went a bit far. He is very wise.
> 
> 
> 
> We married after 9 months but it wasn't rushed due to sex. I wanted to marry him after a week! At the age we were then, late 40's, there didn't seem much point in hanging around.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that with love, commitment and determination, any sexual issue can be sorted out.




How did he warn them? That's amazing! You mean like a red light would start flashing if he went beyond 2nd base??
I would totally become a believer if that happened with my wife.
Unfortunately I think he was encouraging us to do the despicable :-/
My wife was resisting for a bit but not very much. I remember not being able to find the right place to stick it in (we were 16), it wasn't very straight forward but there weren't any signs afterwards...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> How did he warn them? That's amazing! You mean like a red light would start flashing if he went beyond 2nd base??
> I would totally become a believer if that happened with my wife.
> Unfortunately I think he was encouraging us to do the despicable :-/
> My wife was resisting for a bit but not very much. I remember not being able to find the right place to stick it in (we were 16), it wasn't very straight forward but there weren't any signs afterwards...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They both felt very uncomfortable and knew that it was wrong.


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> They both felt very uncomfortable and knew that it was wrong.


Oh, anticlimax :-(


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## Maricha75

inmyprime said:


> How did he warn them? That's amazing! You mean like a red light would start flashing if he went beyond 2nd base??
> I would totally become a believer if that happened with my wife.
> *Unfortunately I think he was encouraging us to do the despicable* :-/
> My wife was resisting for a bit but not very much. I remember not being able to find the right place to stick it in (we were 16), it wasn't very straight forward but there weren't any signs afterwards...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


God does not encourage anyone to do something against Him. You were tempted (God does not tempt you. That is Satan). You gave in to that temptation. This was your own choice.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Oh, anticlimax :-(


God often uses that uncomfortable feeling, or a lack of peace about something to let us know.


----------



## Steve1000

Diana7 said:


> I think it means that when you marry you are one, and must realise that your body is to be used for the good of the marriage which includes regular sex.
> 
> We weren't married in a church, neither of us had a church at that time, that makes no difference, God is everywhere.
> 
> Sex before marriage is like anything else, it can be forgiven. :smile2:
> 
> I regret having sex with the one guy before I met my first husband, I also regret having sex with my first husband(not a Christian) before we married, but that's in the past and I have been forgiven now.I wasn't following God as I should have been then, but this time we both wanted to wait till we married first, my husband has never had sex outside marriage.


You seem to be a decent wife and you also clearly have a strong belief in the validity of the bible. This is a sincere question: Does it ever bother you that according to Deuteronomy, you should have been taken to be stoned to death in front of your father's house because you were not a virgin on your wedding night? Of course I don't think that way and I assume that we're both glad that we don't live during the dark ages when Christian leaders literally ruled much of Europe.


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## 269370

Maricha75 said:


> God does not encourage anyone to do something against Him. You were tempted (God does not tempt you. That is Satan). You gave in to that temptation. This was your own choice.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


But why does god allow satan to play these games and tempt people in the first place? It's satan's fault. Neither of us had read the bible when we were 16 anyway, not that ignorance is a excuse. 
Neither of us felt it was "wrong" or "shameful". It was kind of nice because neither of us had any experience with anyone else beforehand and we had no idea what was going on & or knew very much what to do. It seemed totally instinctive.


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## *Deidre*

I find it hard sometimes, to reconcile what my faith teaches, and also believing that sex with my fiance could ever be ''sinful.'' A piece of paper and a church ceremony will suddenly make sex...sacred? I guess I don't see it that way, but that could be me justifying things. 

I find it hard sometimes to reconcile viewing sex as viewed in certain Christian circles as ''shameful,'' unless done in marriage. I think if the evangelical Christian divorce rate wasn't so high, I'd think differently. I'd say ''they're doing something right,'' but when atheists seem to be divorcing way less than Christians, all things being equal (there are exceptions, etc)...it just makes you pause and wonder why that is. Jesus also spoke about divorce, so if you waited for marriage to have sex, but then you end up divorced, are you really edifying your faith? I don't judge people who have sex outside of marriage, but abhor cheating.


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## 269370

I wonder how or why sex became a shameful thing (biologically/evolutionary speaking, I know the story about Adam & Eve...it doesn't do it for me).
Is it something to do with domination/submission or something more elaborate? Probably unlikely to find an answer here though.


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## 269370

The closest I could find:

social psychology - Why do humans have sex in private? - Cognitive Sciences Stack Exchange

Darwin (1872) argued that shame represents what would be at the primitive level an instinctive seeking for cover, but his elaboration on this wasn't clear. MacCurdy (1930) took this idea further. He argued that prehistoric man sought concealment for activities which expose him to danger in a hostile environment, e.g., eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and excretion (Maccurdy, 1930). Concealment was sought prior to the fulfilment of any act that would limit or prevent rapid self-defence. For example, Maccurdy (1930) boldly pointed out that postures during both sexual intercourse and excretion prevents people from rapid self-defence.

Malinowski (1927) writes that:

it is characteristic that sexual activities, sleep and excretion are surrounded by protective taboos and mechanisms of concealment and isolation in almost every society.
In this context, the sense of shame could have developed as a response to natural drive for self-protection (Dawrin, 1872; Maccurdy, 1930). Therefore, evolutionarily this would form the basis of unwillingness of having sexual intercourse in public.


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## *Deidre*

Idk. It's a good question, though. I will say though, from secular perspective, sex does change things in a relationship. It bonds people and if that's the only bond, it might artificially bond people, you know? So, there's that. Like I've dated guys before my fiance where there was no sexual activity whatsoever...and after breaking up, it seemed easier than the relationships where we were having sex. Biologically speaking, sex does bond people together, which is why women tend to mistake sex for love.


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## *Deidre*

Darwin was a Christian for a lot of his life, how ironic you are quoting him.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I wonder how or why sex became a shameful thing (biologically/evolutionary speaking, I know the story about Adam & Eve...it doesn't do it for me).
> Is it something to do with domination/submission or something more elaborate? Probably unlikely to find an answer here though.


Its not a shameful thing, God made us sexual beings, but he put a fence round it and said its for marriage. To me this shows just how important sex is and that in marriage sex is very special. Today so many see it as just a casual thing, to be done with anyone whether they are in a relationship with them or not. It makes me sad that sex is so skewed now.


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## *Deidre*

Diana7 said:


> Its not a shameful thing, God made us sexual beings, but he put a fence round it and said its for marriage. To me this shows just how important sex is and that in marriage sex is very special. Today so many see it as just a casual thing, to be done with anyone whether they are in a relationship with them or not. It makes me sad that sex is so skewed now.


I like how you say things, Diana. It makes a lot of sense.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Idk. It's a good question, though. I will say though, from secular perspective, sex does change things in a relationship. It bonds people and if that's the only bond, it might artificially bond people, you know? So, there's that. Like I've dated guys before my fiance where there was no sexual activity whatsoever...and after breaking up, it seemed easier than the relationships where we were having sex. Biologically speaking, sex does bond people together, which is why women tend to mistake sex for love.


I don't know much about it as I have no experience with other women but I can well believe this. There are special hormones released (oxytocin) during sex which bonds us together. It's the reason I cannot biologically "perform" with someone I am not bonded with...(it took me a few tries until i could do it with my wife/then gf properly but once I started going...there was no stopping. It's still like this. I am now bonded like superglue...and she can't shake me off).


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> I find it hard sometimes, to reconcile what my faith teaches, and also believing that sex with my fiance could ever be ''sinful.'' A piece of paper and a church ceremony will suddenly make sex...sacred? I guess I don't see it that way, but that could be me justifying things.
> 
> I find it hard sometimes to reconcile viewing sex as viewed in certain Christian circles as ''shameful,'' unless done in marriage. I think if the evangelical Christian divorce rate wasn't so high, I'd think differently. I'd say ''they're doing something right,'' but when atheists seem to be divorcing way less than Christians, all things being equal (there are exceptions, etc)...it just makes you pause and wonder why that is. Jesus also spoke about divorce, so if you waited for marriage to have sex, but then you end up divorced, are you really edifying your faith? I don't judge people who have sex outside of marriage, but abhor cheating.


I have never heard a Christian say that sex is shameful. Its not at all. Its amazing in the right place, and God says that is marriage. If done outside marriage its a sin. If we follow God then that's how we should live. 
The piece of paper isn't the marriage, its the legal proof of what has happened. Marriage is very different from just a relationship, its a covenant when you make promises. Sex is part of that covenant. 

When I think of the countless divorces that I know of, only one is between 2 christians. The rest are all between atheists. 

It also interesting that couples who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who don't, wHich shows that having sex before marriage doesn't make for a better marriage.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> I like how you say things, Diana. It makes a lot of sense.


Thank you. Glad it helps.:smile2:


----------



## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Darwin was a Christian for a lot of his life, how ironic you are quoting him.


Being a Christian back then was a society status thing...Actually he lost his faith but didn't have the heart to tell this (and his findings from his voyages) to his wife when she was dying, if I remember it vaguely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Charles_Darwin#Darwin.27s_loss_of_faith


----------



## Diana7

DTO said:


> She would still say she is. Which is odd, because she has zero regrets about withholding sex, providing bad sex, squandering our money, etc.
> 
> Moreover, because she considered herself a strong Christian, I sought our pastor's advice. As a result, the church applied Matthew 18 discipline and apparently that was my fault as well. She said I humiliated her (she was okay with the behavior but not okay with being exposed).
> 
> The real story us that prior to condemning me for going to our pastor, she had ALSO gone to him disparaging me. She was told her story was not credible, essentially. Our pastor advised her but she blew him off.
> 
> Long story short, she stopped attending that church and told them she never wanted to hear from them again. She felt that loyalty to her was more important than being biblically correct.
> 
> Some Christian.


Hmmm well sometimes I have to doubt some peoples faith when their actions say the complete opposite.


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> I don't know much about it as I have no experience with other women but I can well believe this. There are special hormones released (oxytocin) during sex which bonds us together. It's the reason I cannot biologically "perform" with someone I am not bonded with...(it took me a few tries until i could do it with my wife/then gf properly but once I started going...there was no stopping. It's still like this. I am now bonded like superglue...and she can't shake me off).


Yes, something like that lol It's good that you have such an amazing bond with your wife. How long have you been married?

I hope that my fiance and I continue our amazing bond well into marriage.

I'm getting married next month, people.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> But why does god allow satan to play these games and tempt people in the first place? It's satan's fault. Neither of us had read the bible when we were 16 anyway, not that ignorance is a excuse.
> Neither of us felt it was "wrong" or "shameful". It was kind of nice because neither of us had any experience with anyone else beforehand and we had no idea what was going on & or knew very much what to do. It seemed totally instinctive.


He doesn't play games, He clearly lays out what is best for us and what isnt, and we are free to follow Him or not. I have learnt in 40 years as a Christian that His ways are always the best. The times I haven't gone along with his wisdom I have regretted it later.


----------



## *Deidre*

Diana7 said:


> I have never heard a Christian say that sex is shameful. Its not at all. Its amazing in the right place, and God says that is marriage. If done outside marriage its a sin. If we follow God then that's how we should live.
> The piece of paper isn't the marriage, its the legal proof of what has happened. Marriage is very different from just a relationship, its a covenant when you make promises. Sex is part of that covenant.
> 
> When I think of the countless divorces that I know of, only one is between 2 christians. The rest are all between atheists.
> 
> It also interesting that couples who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who don't, wHich shows that having sex before marriage doesn't make for a better marriage.


Well, I grew up in a Catholic household, and sex before marriage was considered shameful, but so were ''acts'' after marriage. Or in a marriage, I should say. Every single sexual act needs to be ''open to children,'' says the Roman Catholic Church. That sort of leaves oral sex to completion off the table. lol 

I left the Catholic faith, then I identifed as an atheist for a few years, and a little over a year ago, returned to Christianity. I no longer think of sex as shameful, depending on the circumstances of course. Not all sex is healthy. But it was in my Catholic upbringing, where I learned that sex was often considered shameful, and that a couple shouldn't be seeking mere pleasure from it. That there was always a greater good to come from it. This isn't why I left the Church lol 0

There are many tenets of that religion that I don't ''believe.''


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I have never heard a Christian say that sex is shameful. Its not at all. Its amazing in the right place, and God says that is marriage. If done outside marriage its a sin. If we follow God then that's how we should live.
> The piece of paper isn't the marriage, its the legal proof of what has happened. Marriage is very different from just a relationship, its a covenant when you make promises. Sex is part of that covenant.
> 
> When I think of the countless divorces that I know of, only one is between 2 christians. The rest are all between atheists.
> 
> It also interesting that couples who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who don't, wHich shows that having sex before marriage doesn't make for a better marriage.


That's not true though: New Research Says Living Together Before Marriage Doesn't Lead To Divorce | The Huffington Post

I agree about the spirit of your argument. Sex is not supposed to be a casual thing. Having sex outside of marriage doesn't make it more casual either (in *my* book, I know god will disagree here...).

I meant the sex being shameful: the fact that it is even _considered_ to be 'sinful' at all. After people get married, some find it still hard to shake off the feeling that sex is 'shameful'. it's not supposed to, but somehow it is ingrained in many of us (especially women, men probably don't care).


----------



## Diana7

Steve1000 said:


> You seem to be a decent wife and you also clearly have a strong belief in the validity of the bible. This is a sincere question: Does it ever bother you that according to Deuteronomy, you should have been taken to be stoned to death in front of your father's house because you were not a virgin on your wedding night? Of course I don't think that way and I assume that we're both glad that we don't live during the dark ages when Christian leaders literally ruled much of Europe.


Christians have teachings that we follow. We know they are always for our best, but even if we fail and make stupid decisions, because of Jesus Christ we can be forgiven if we repent and are sorry. 
The OT rules were for the Jews in a very different time. What it does say to me though, is how very important sex is and how very important it is that we keep it for marriage. Many Christians today seem very casual about sin. :frown2:


----------



## *Deidre*

Diana7 said:


> Christians have teachings that we follow. We know they are always for our best, but even if we fail and make stupid decisions, because of Jesus Christ we can be forgiven if we repent and are sorry.
> The OT rules were for the Jews in a very different time. What it does say to me though, is how very important sex is and how very important it is that we keep it for marriage. Many Christians today seem very casual about sin. :frown2:


I don't know if it's that many are casual about it, or if our culture just doesn't really support feeling shame about anything. Like not all shame and regret are bad. I feel ashamed of some things I've done, and shame can lead to change and growth. But, in the culture, we are taught that no one should ever shame you for anything, and that you should celebrate your sin. (it's not called sin, but we should be able to celebrate things that are hurtful to others, and always look out for ourselves) The culture teaches us to be selfish and self focused, so those messages interfere with Jesus' voice sometimes, so I try to stay focused and prayer is helpful in this regard.

It's hard to come away from prayer untouched, and unmoved.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> Well, I grew up in a Catholic household, and sex before marriage was considered shameful, but so were ''acts'' after marriage. Or in a marriage, I should say. Every single sexual act needs to be ''open to children,'' says the Roman Catholic Church. That sort of leaves oral sex to completion off the table. lol
> 
> I left the Catholic faith, then I identifed as an atheist for a few years, and a little over a year ago, returned to Christianity. I no longer think of sex as shameful, depending on the circumstances of course. Not all sex is healthy. But it was in my Catholic upbringing, where I learned that sex was often considered shameful, and that a couple shouldn't be seeking mere pleasure from it. That there was always a greater good to come from it. This isn't why I left the Church lol 0
> 
> There are many tenets of that religion that I don't ''believe.''


The RC church has many completely unbiblical beliefs about sex(and other things). They are completely man made ideas. I don't have anything to do with the RC church for those reasons. They clearly haven't read song of songs in the Bible, which is all about erotic sex in marriage. :smile2:


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> I don't know if it's that many are casual about it, or if our culture just doesn't really support feeling shame about anything. Like not all shame and regret are bad. I feel ashamed of some things I've done, and shame can lead to change and growth. But, in the culture, we are taught that no one should ever shame you for anything, and that you should celebrate your sin. (it's not called sin, but we should be able to celebrate things that are hurtful to others, and always look out for ourselves) The culture teaches us to be selfish and self focused, so those messages interfere with Jesus' voice sometimes, so I try to stay focused and prayer is helpful in this regard.
> 
> It's hard to come away from prayer untouched, and unmoved.


Yes, being a Christian is sometimes like swimming against the current of the worlds standards. Not always easy at all. :surprise:


----------



## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Yes, something like that lol It's good that you have such an amazing bond with your wife. How long have you been married?
> 
> I hope that my fiance and I continue our amazing bond well into marriage.
> 
> I'm getting married next month, people.


We have been together since we were 16 years old (she may even have been 15 but don't tell anyone 
Got together in 1997 (sex probably in 1998, in case it's relevant , married in 2008. Now 36 years old, 3 children. Long time. It's possible, even without being Christian (though we'd make a great Christian couple, if only god didn't make us atheists, as I always say!)

Hope you have a great wedding and a wonderful life together.


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> That's not true though: New Research Says Living Together Before Marriage Doesn't Lead To Divorce | The Huffington Post
> 
> I agree about the spirit of your argument. Sex is not supposed to be a casual thing. Having sex outside of marriage doesn't make it more casual either (in *my* book, I know god will disagree here...).
> 
> I meant the sex being shameful: the fact that it is even _considered_ to be 'sinful' at all. After people get married, some find it still hard to shake off the feeling that sex is 'shameful'. it's not supposed to, but somehow it is ingrained in many of us (especially women, men probably don't care).


lol There are so many conflicting ''studies.'' What to believe.

For me, my fiance and I don't live together, and while we spend the night at each other's place sometimes, I just never wanted to go that path of living with a guy before marriage. I've seen friends of mine do it, and then they got married, and Idk...they seem okay, but it is almost like marriage was the inevitable obligation or something, and not a true desire to be together. That's just my opinion, everyone is different.


----------



## 269370

Steve1000 said:


> You seem to be a decent wife and you also clearly have a strong belief in the validity of the bible. This is a sincere question: Does it ever bother you that according to Deuteronomy, you should have been taken to be stoned to death in front of your father's house because you were not a virgin on your wedding night? Of course I don't think that way and I assume that we're both glad that we don't live during the dark ages when Christian leaders literally ruled much of Europe.


Yikes. Forgot about that little gold nugget.


----------



## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> lol There are so many conflicting ''studies.'' What to believe.
> 
> For me, my fiance and I don't live together, and while we spend the night at each other's place sometimes, I just never wanted to go that path of living with a guy before marriage. I've seen friends of mine do it, and then they got married, and Idk...they seem okay, but it is almost like marriage was the inevitable obligation or something, and not a true desire to be together. That's just my opinion, everyone is different.


For us, the wedding was just a natural progression to the next stage, after finishing masters and before having kids. I wasn't that keen on the whole ceremony/getting all the attention thing but we did it in a nice place (Italy) and didn't have too many guests, just close family and friends. Plus I heard great things about wedding nights (in my wife's tradition, her bridesmaids are supposed to "help" the couple mate and it sounded really nice & cosy in my head but in reality, everyone was so exhausted that everyone fell asleep at the end of the evening and nothing happened. One could say the marriage was not officially consummated until a few days later 

About co-habitation, common sense says that problems usually arise only after living together becomes a routine/reality. Studies used not to support this but as you rightly say, studies are all over the place about these things...

_It’s often said that that living together before marriage puts couples at greater risk for divorce later on — but it turns out that may not be the case at all.

A new study by associate professor Arielle Kuperberg from the University of North Carolina at Greensboro found that there is no correlation between cohabiting before marriage and divorce; instead, what may predict divorce in those who cohabitate before marriage is the age at which they choose do so.

Kuperberg explained that couples who shack up before marriage tend to be younger, and because marrying at a young age increases the likelihood of divorce, it appeared in previous research that cohabitation did as well. But Kuperberg says that’s not the case; once you control for the age variable, the correlation between divorce and cohabitation disappears._


----------



## Bibi1031

Diana7 said:


> Yes its like having an anchor that holds you tight even when there are storms.:smile2:


My first divorce was no storm, it was a Tsunami and yes, God was my anchor in that giant storm too as well as all the other storms we weathered before the end of the marriage. We held strong for 20 of the 21 years! :smile2:


----------



## jld

inmyprime said:


> For us, the wedding was just a natural progression to the next stage, after finishing masters and before having kids. I wasn't that keen on the whole ceremony/getting all the attention thing but we did it in a nice place (Italy) and didn't have too many guests, just close family and friends. Plus I heard great things about wedding nights (in my wife's tradition, her bridesmaids are supposed to "help" the couple mate and it sounded really nice & cosy in my head but in reality, everyone was so exhausted that everyone fell asleep at the end of the evening and nothing happened. One could say the marriage was not officially consummated until a few days later
> 
> About co-habitation, common sense says that problems usually arise only after living together becomes a routine/reality. Studies used not to support this but as you rightly say, studies are all over the place about these things...
> 
> _It’s often said that that living together before marriage puts couples at greater risk for divorce later on — but it turns out that may not be the case at all.
> 
> A new study by associate professor Arielle Kuperberg from the University of North Carolina at Greensboro found that there is no correlation between cohabiting before marriage and divorce; instead, what may predict divorce in those who cohabitate before marriage is the age at which they choose do so.
> 
> Kuperberg explained that couples who shack up before marriage tend to be younger, and because marrying at a young age increases the likelihood of divorce, it appeared in previous research that cohabitation did as well. But Kuperberg says that’s not the case; once you control for the age variable, the correlation between divorce and cohabitation disappears._


I never had much faith in that study, as my husband and I lived together for a year before marrying and are still going strong more than 20 years later. Thanks for offering that update.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> We have been together since we were 16 years old (she may even have been 15 but don't tell anyone
> Got together in 1997 (sex probably in 1998, in case it's relevant , married in 2008. Now 36 years old, 3 children. Long time. It's possible, even without being Christian (though we'd make a great Christian couple, if only god didn't make us atheists, as I always say!)
> 
> Hope you have a great wedding and a wonderful life together.


No one is born atheist. We are all born with a God shaped hole. Its up to us whether we fill that with Him or other stuff.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> lol There are so many conflicting ''studies.'' What to believe.
> 
> For me, my fiance and I don't live together, and while we spend the night at each other's place sometimes, I just never wanted to go that path of living with a guy before marriage. I've seen friends of mine do it, and then they got married, and Idk...they seem okay, but it is almost like marriage was the inevitable obligation or something, and not a true desire to be together. That's just my opinion, everyone is different.


We did actually live in the same house in the 2 months between the engagement and wedding, but we had separate bedrooms and there was no sex. It was only because my husband had to leave the rented flat he was in and you cant get places here for less than 6 months. One of my daughters was still at home then, and as well as us both knowing that it wasn't what God wanted, I wanted her to see that we were doing the right thing. 

Is your fiance a Christian? Have you prayed about this? Or talked to your pastor? God is really clear on no sex before marriage.


----------



## Steve1000

Diana7 said:


> Christians have teachings that we follow. We know they are always for our best, but even if we fail and make stupid decisions, because of Jesus Christ we can be forgiven if we repent and are sorry.
> The OT rules were for the Jews in a very different time. What it does say to me though, is how very important sex is and how very important it is that we keep it for marriage. Many Christians today seem very casual about sin. :frown2:


Fair enough. However, even if those rules were meant by God to be only for the Jews, they do seem to be a bit violent and draconian.


----------



## Steve1000

Diana7 said:


> No one is born atheist. We are all born with a God shaped hole. Its up to us whether we fill that with Him or other stuff.


As someone who lives a third of the year in China, I fail to see how Chinese children and Japanese children are to be condemned for not correctly filling their God-shape holes.


----------



## Diana7

Steve1000 said:


> Fair enough. However, even if those rules were meant by God to be only for the Jews, they do seem to be a bit violent and draconian.


I think it shows how important it was for people to stay free of such serious sins. Remember then that people married in their mid to late teens so the incidences of premarital sex would have been rare.


----------



## Diana7

Steve1000 said:


> As someone who lives a third of the year in China, I fail to see how Chinese children and Japanese children are to be condemned for not correctly filling their God-shape holes.


There are many Christians in such countries. Christianity in China is growing rapidly.


----------



## Steve1000

Diana7 said:


> I think it shows how important it was for people to stay free of such serious sins. Remember then that people married in their mid to late teens so the incidences of premarital sex would have been rare.


That's true. However, I still think it is not right to blame a 15-year-old bride for not being a virgin on her wedding night, never mind stoning her to death.


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## 269370

What about the unbaptised babies? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## *Deidre*

Diana7 said:


> We did actually live in the same house in the 2 months between the engagement and wedding, but we had separate bedrooms and there was no sex. It was only because my husband had to leave the rented flat he was in and you cant get places here for less than 6 months. One of my daughters was still at home then, and as well as us both knowing that it wasn't what God wanted, I wanted her to see that we were doing the right thing.
> 
> Is your fiance a Christian? Have you prayed about this? Or talked to your pastor? God is really clear on no sex before marriage.


My fiance believes but doesn't really practice, but what does that mean? It can mean different things to different people, but maybe we both feel okay about it because we are getting married.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> What about the unbaptised babies?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Babies and small children are under the age of accountability.


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## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> My fiance believes but doesn't really practice, but what does that mean? It can mean different things to different people, but maybe we both feel okay about it because we are getting married.


Yes but you aren't married yet. Are you at peace about marrying someone who isn't following Jesus Christ?


----------



## GuyInColorado

Diana7 said:


> Babies and small children are under the age of accountability.


Gotta love loopholes. I bet people born with no mental capabilities also get a free pass. 

Close your eyes... think about this God that has existed since forever. No one crated him/her/it. God just existed. Now he gets lonely/bored and creates the earth, adam, eve, the sun, and all the animals. For what reason? Can you comprehend that? It doesn't make sense. You have 0 proof that this even happened. Just someone wrote it in a transcript thousands of years ago and you believe it. :nerd: It makes more sense to me that the universes existed since forever and life evolved. Trust me, it still hurts my brain thinking about it. How people can dedicate so much of their life to a religion is crazy.


----------



## Diana7

GuyInColorado said:


> Gotta love loopholes. I bet people born with no mental capabilities also get a free pass.
> 
> Close your eyes... think about this God that has existed since forever. No one crated him/her/it. God just existed. Now he gets lonely/bored and creates the earth, adam, eve, the sun, and all the animals. For what reason? Can you comprehend that? It doesn't make sense. You have 0 proof that this even happened. Just someone wrote it in a transcript thousands of years ago and you believe it. :nerd: It makes more sense to me that the universes existed since forever and life evolved. Trust me, it still hurts my brain thinking about it. How people can dedicate so much of their life to a religion is crazy.


Nothing to do with loopholes. Babies clearly cant make a decision to follow Christ. I cant remember a time when I didnt know that God was real. Life with Him is so much better than life without. Not not crazy. Its the sanest thing I have ever done, making that decision to follow Him. Never regretted it for a second in 40 years.


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## *Deidre*

This thread isn't designed to insult faith or believers. Let's not derail it.


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## *Deidre*

Diana7 said:


> Yes but you aren't married yet. Are you at peace about marrying someone who isn't following Jesus Christ?


He believes, and we all have our own way of following our beliefs. But, I do hear you, and maybe I hadn't thought about it much, to be honest. (the sex aspect of it all, I mean)

I'll have to think about this, but it is definitely a big part of our relationship, tbh.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> He believes, and we all have our own way of following our beliefs. But, I do hear you, and maybe I hadn't thought about it much, to be honest. (the sex aspect of it all, I mean)
> 
> I'll have to think about this, but it is definitely a big part of our relationship, tbh.


Can you get married asap? Yes it is a big important part, that's why God says its for marriage only. Pray about it.


----------



## MattMatt

Moderator message:-



> Re: Has faith/religion helped your relationship?


The answer is either "Yes, because..." or "No, because..."

If you want to raise other issues or concerns relating to religion in general, this isn't that thread, OK?


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> Babies and small children are under the age of accountability.




Not even for original sin?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> He believes, and we all have our own way of following our beliefs. But, I do hear you, and maybe I hadn't thought about it much, to be honest. (the sex aspect of it all, I mean)
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have to think about this, but it is definitely a big part of our relationship, tbh.




Wait until you marry, then confess and repent (few times a day, if necessary). You should be ok.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GuyInColorado

Deidre's defiance/rebellion of no sex before marriage is a big reason why religion is a sham. It's why religion did not help my marriage (keeping the thread on topic). All followers are hypocrites.


----------



## *Deidre*

Were you once religious, like when you were married? 

I don't judge people's faith or how they feel about their faith/God. It's a personal thing, and it's between God and that person. But, anyway.

I'm not ''in rebellion.'' lol


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Wait until you marry, then confess and repent (few times a day, if necessary). You should be ok.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There's a Catholic in you, crying to be heard. 0


----------



## GuyInColorado

Yes, I used to go to church, graduated from a christian school, etc etc. After looking at the facts and how many hypocrites there are in the church, i gave up and concluded it's a huge mystery on why we exist and how we got here. My ex wife was brain washed and big into religion. Went to a church that spoke in tongues. Weird crap. She was cruel to me and my mother, so God can keep her. Some people need religion (a higher power) to save them from a life of addition and pain. I don't need it.


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## *Deidre*

GuyInColorado said:


> Yes, I used to go to church, graduated from a christian school, etc etc. After looking at the facts and how many hypocrites there are in the church, i gave up and concluded it's a huge mystery on why we exist and how we got here. My ex wife was brain washed and big into religion. She was cruiel to me and my mother, so God can keep her.


Oh, I didn't know that part of your story, about your wife's cruelty. Sorry to hear that.  

Faith is different for everyone. I think that it's easy to get caught up in the ''shoulds'' and ''should nots'' and the Bible, when to me, the Bible isn't the sum total of one's faith. At least for me. Not all Christians are fundamentalists, so, there's that.

There is someone on this site who told of his story about his wife and him, and it honestly seems like his faith led him to reconcile, and it was a good choice for them. I think that faith can be powerful, and very meaningful.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> There's a Catholic in you, crying to be heard. 0


I want people to be happy. Just like you guys 
Even if that means taking it for team at times.:moon::whip:


----------



## Maricha75

inmyprime said:


> Not even for original sin?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. It was explained to me, many years ago, how that can be. When Jesus walked this earth, He was baptized as an example for us. Jesus did not *need* to be baptized, though. But, it was done as a symbol for us, when we choose to follow Him. Babies and young children cannot make this decision for themselves. As is often stated, we are under grace, now, because Jesus fulfilled what was written in the Old Testament. Those who are too young (and I truly believe those who are mentally unable, at any age, too) to make the decision are covered by His example, His baptism.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Oh, I didn't know that part of your story, about your wife's cruelty. Sorry to hear that.
> 
> Faith is different for everyone. I think that it's easy to get caught up in the ''shoulds'' and ''should nots'' and the Bible, when to me, the Bible isn't the sum total of one's faith. At least for me. Not all Christians are fundamentalists, so, there's that.
> 
> There is someone on this site who told of his story about his wife and him, and it honestly seems like his faith led him to reconcile, and it was a good choice for them. I think that faith can be powerful, and very meaningful.


Be careful, it's possible to get stoned ( not in the good way :fro: ) if you are not a virgin on your wedding night. Perhaps repairing the hymen and doing it the "other way" for now is advisable, just to be sure. (That's what they did in the Catholic schools in my days).
and don't forget to repent!
I am not sure it's ok to ignore some parts while embrace other parts in the bible. But it depends on how you want construct your faith menu.
OTOH if you plan to marry anyway, maybe there are exceptions...


----------



## Bibi1031

inmyprime said:


> I am not sure it's ok to ignore some parts while embrace other parts in the bible. But it depends on how you want construct your faith menu.


Jesus came to set most of that nonsense straight. Remember the gentile woman in the well? Jesus stated she was married several times. He didn't stone her. He told her to repent and sin no more. IOW, marry and enjoy sex as much as you want with your now new hubby.:grin2:

So, @Diedre, God holds the ultimate judgement and you are right. The bible is NOT necessarily needed to have faith and for God to listen to your needs. Religion is not needed either. You may very well use both the bible and religion, but they are poor substitutes for God and your journey with Him.

What is that saying: the only constant is change. Well, even the bible changed when Jesus came. Why would marriage not change to fit the needs of the people at a certain time. Our marriages now a days are not the the marriages when Moses roamed the Earth. Even Earth changes constantly.


----------



## EleGirl

*Deidre* said:


> lol!! I believe it is written that when a man and woman marry, they become one flesh, and that they should desire to please each other. Of course, if someone isn't feeling well, etc they shouldn't feel obligated, but if you love your partner, the idea is that you'd genuinely want to please them, sexually.


AT the time that the Bible was written, marriage was not about love. Marriages were arranged. But after marriage duty and respect were supposed to rule the way the couple treated each other. This idea of marrying for love is a modern one. The hope was that some form of love, or bond, would build after the couple married. But seldom was there anything between the couple like we expect today... this "in love" thing that causes so much trouble.


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## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> Ah here we go then  Unless men are inspiring the attitudes of their wives properly, I guess this particular bible verse does not apply about pleasing your husband's need
> 
> (I know what you are saying, I am just making a point that bible may not be the cure for all, unfortunately. Though it would be nice if it was. People have a bias to rationalise pretty much anything in their favour.)


The thing about the Bible is that it makes more sense if we look at a group of verses that address the same topic. The verse about providing sex does not stand alone. If we take the many verses that talk about the roles that both men and women are supposed to fill in marriage, we get two people who respect and care for each other, who serve each other and meet each other's needs.

What we see in real live are a lot of people who are not serving their spouse, who are very self-centered, and many who are even abusive.

No one should be obligated to have sex with someone who abuses them, ignores their needs, is self-centered, etc. I really do not think that the Bible is advising that either.

So yea, men should be inspiring their wife, just as women should be also inspiring their husbands. And each should be open to other. When this is going on in a relationship, the desire for sex is usually there.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> I think I wrote earlier that I wasn't sure discussions can determine compatibility (or keep talking about it will make both so horny that they will rush and get married just for sex' sake). You need to make sure the key fits into the keyhole correctly to "unlock" the passion
> 
> *What about doing other things, besides sex? Is this allowed before marriage.* We actually didn't have much sex (PIV wasn't so good for her back then or maybe I was no good at it then...one, two three, oops, finished  Now she prefers that to the other stuff.
> 
> I suppose I would be repentant/sorry if I understood why having sex in our case was harming us in any way. We took our time, didn't get married till we finished studies/lived together for a while. The timing seemed all natural. Also didn't feel rushed into marriage just 'cos we were horny....
> 
> We also didn't sleep around or get any of those STDs....


This is an interesting question. I'm going to take is further and ask what constitutes marriage?

We think of marriage being a contract that is made based on the laws of our state. But is that the kind of marriage that the Bible is talking about? Does the Bible actually require a contract with the state? 

I've read that in the past, when people did not live close to a church, they just moved in together. And that was considered a marriage. Now if a traveling priest came through, the couple might ask the priest to "marry" them, or bless their marriage. But the couple was considered married.

I think that the idea of no sex outside of marriage is about preventing children from being born to single women. It was very hard for a woman on her own to raise a child. So it was frowned upon.Society is (or at least was) built on the basis of family structure. So encouraging marriage and family seen as important.

Plus, disallowing sex outside of marriage helps to keep STDs in check.


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## EleGirl

Diana7 said:


> I think it means that when you marry you are one, and must realise that your body is to be used for the good of the marriage which includes regular sex.


Are you saying that if a man abuses his wife, beats her, disrespects her, etc. she still has to have sex with him????????


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## EleGirl

Diana7 said:


> The RC church has many completely unbiblical beliefs about sex(and other things). They are completely man made ideas. I don't have anything to do with the RC church for those reasons. They clearly haven't read song of songs in the Bible, which is all about erotic sex in marriage. :smile2:


It’s one thing to talk about your own faith. But quite another to insult the faith of others. Your statement here about the Catholic Church is untrue and basically ignorant.


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## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> Be careful, it's possible to get stoned ( not in the good way :fro: ) if you are not a virgin on your wedding night. Perhaps repairing the hymen and doing it the "other way" for now is advisable, just to be sure. (That's what they did in the Catholic schools in my days).
> and don't forget to repent!
> I am not sure it's ok to ignore some parts while embrace other parts in the bible. But it depends on how you want construct your faith menu.
> OTOH if you plan to marry anyway, maybe there are exceptions...



Do you remember the story of Mary Magdalene? The crowd of men were going to stone her for some sexual sin, or prostitution, ??? Anyway, Jesus stopped them and said for the person who has not sinned to throw the first stone.

I think that pretty much explains Jesus' take on sex and sin. 

No more stoning.


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## 269370

EleGirl said:


> Do you remember the story of Mary Magdalene? The crowd of men were going to stone her for some sexual sin, or prostitution, ??? Anyway, Jesus stopped them and said for the person who has not sinned to throw the first stone.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that pretty much explains Jesus' take on sex and sin.
> 
> 
> 
> No more stoning.




Ah yes, I think there was a documentary about this: https://youtu.be/MIaORknS1Dk


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

...


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## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Be careful, it's possible to get stoned ( not in the good way :fro: ) if you are not a virgin on your wedding night. Perhaps repairing the hymen and doing it the "other way" for now is advisable, just to be sure. (That's what they did in the Catholic schools in my days).
> and don't forget to repent!
> I am not sure it's ok to ignore some parts while embrace other parts in the bible. But it depends on how you want construct your faith menu.
> OTOH if you plan to marry anyway, maybe there are exceptions...


I'm sure it's not okay, but I'm also sure that no one is perfect. We can strive to overcome our sinful natures (we being believers) but we still fall.


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## *Deidre*

EleGirl said:


> AT the time that the Bible was written, marriage was not about love. Marriages were arranged. But after marriage duty and respect were supposed to rule the way the couple treated each other. This idea of marrying for love is a modern one. The hope was that some form of love, or bond, would build after the couple married. But seldom was there anything between the couple like we expect today... this "in love" thing that causes so much trouble.


I remember my grandmother on my dad's side, who passed away a little over two years ago, telling me this. That love is a modern ''invention,'' she'd say as a precursor to marriage. But, be it as it may, I still couldn't marry a man if I didn't love him. Or have love for him. But, the feelings of love and falling in and out of love, can be problematic. We shouldn't live our lives off of our feelings, but it can be hard sometimes.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> I'm sure it's not okay, but I'm also sure that no one is perfect. We can strive to overcome our sinful natures (we being believers) but we still fall.


Is it not better to accept ourselves for who we are and work from there, rather than start with the assumption that we carry a massive sin on our shoulders and are destined to fall?


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## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Is it not better to accept ourselves for who we are and work from there, rather than start with the assumption that we carry a massive sin on our shoulders and are destined to fall?


Well, we do accept ourselves, for who we are, but I guess how I see it, is that my life with faith, helps me want to lead a better life. Not just a better life in a secular sense, which is worldly. But, in a way that offers a deeper feeling of peace. Not that someone who doesn't believe in God can't achieve that, but I didn't feel that sense of peace when I was an atheist.


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## 269370

Yes, i am envious of that peace. I almost never experience it (only sometimes, during meditation).
It's the constant voice in my head that something terrible is going to happen to me or my family and that it's just a matter of time, that is always talking over me.
I wish I could stop it but I cannot lie to myself. It's a shame, because life goes by in some kind of terrible anticipation of horror. But it is what it is.


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## *Deidre*

That's interesting. I feel that way, sometimes. Like something bad is going to happen, especially if things are going great. God offers a sense of peace like nothing else, but I don't always accept the gift. It's still up to us to accept it.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> That's interesting. I feel that way, sometimes. Like something bad is going to happen, especially if things are going great. God offers a sense of peace like nothing else, but I don't always accept the gift. It's still up to us to accept it.


I can accept it. But it won't change the fact that I will feel excruciating pain if I lose a loved one or if anything else terrible happens. I am not sure knowing that god will have a plan for them will help in any way.
I don't know how sustainable this peace can be: if you are a natural worrier, you will continue to worry, no?


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## Bibi1031

How do you let go of your child when she goes off to school, a party at a friend's house or a sleep over elsewhere? How do you live with letting her go and not worry about it? 

You probably trust the school she is going to or the friends' houses she stays at etc. 

That is the same way we let go of loved ones once they are forever gone from this Earth. We trust where they went and with who. That peace is like no other. It's the time in between human death and reuniting with the loved one that left before us that hurts tremendously for a very long time. 

It's called mourning our loss and believers and non believers suffer pretty much the same mourning period. Only difference is non believers mourn the never again and we mourn the til we reunite in heaven one day. It is a choice we all personally make. I choose to believe because I want to enjoy my mom and pop again some day. My beloved grandma too. They are the 3 that have passed away that I miss the most and feel at peace that I will be in their presence again some day.


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## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> I can accept it. But it won't change the fact that I will feel excruciating pain if I lose a loved one or if anything else terrible happens. I am not sure knowing that god will have a plan for them will help in any way.
> I don't know how sustainable this peace can be: if you are a natural worrier, you will continue to worry, no?


I guess the best way to put it is that God wants you to have a better life. A life free of worry. It's interesting, but as humans, we tend to cling to suffering, but in Buddhism for example, one of the main tenets is that suffering is what causes people the most pain in life. That pain is actually inevitable (pain of losing someone for example) but how we handle it (if we choose to suffer over it, dwell on it, worry, etc) will determine the quality of our life. When I was an atheist, I explored Buddhism and found that to be something to take with me, in life.

Easier said than done though. We may not think that we choose to suffer, but in some ways, maybe we do. Reading stories on here of people who keep staying with abusive jerks in their marriages...that becomes more about the person not seeing their self worth, and choosing to stay in the situation. It's a choice after a while, you know? We don't have to choose it. God helps us make those kinds of decisions. (imo)

I don't always feel at peace, but peace isn't synonymous with bliss. Peace means that even when life is falling down around you, you are still grounded to handle it. God helps keep me grounded, I guess you could say. 

Have you ever explored other religions/spiritual beliefs for yourself?


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## 269370

Bibi1031 said:


> How do you let go of your child when she goes off to school, a party at a friend's house or a sleep over elsewhere? How do you live with letting her go and not worry about it?
> 
> You probably trust the school she is going to or the friends' houses she stays at etc.
> 
> That is the same way we let go of loved ones once they are forever gone from this Earth. We trust where they went and with who. That peace is like no other. It's the time in between human death and reuniting with the loved one that left before us that hurts tremendously for a very long time.
> 
> It's called mourning our loss and believers and non believers suffer pretty much the same mourning period. Only difference is non believers mourn the never again and we mourn the til we reunite in heaven one day. It is a choice we all personally make. I choose to believe because I want to enjoy my mom and pop again some day. My beloved grandma too. They are the 3 that have passed away that I miss the most and feel at peace that I will be in their presence again some day.


I *do* worry about the child going to a party/school or wherever it is where I am not present.

The difference here of course is that they are expected to come back and the probability is extremely high that they will.

No such judgement can be made about death. It's a total and complete leap of faith that any of those things will actually happen (seeing anyone ever again). I presume you have seen what happens to our bodies when we die. Or to our minds, when we have Alzheimers or similar.

If one was convinced about reuniting after death, then logically speaking, one would make every effort to find a way (without committing suicide *deliberately*) to get re-united with the loved ones as soon as they pass away. The reason that this does not happen so much tells me that the conviction of it being true cannot be as high.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> I guess the best way to put it is that God wants you to have a better life. A life free of worry. It's interesting, but as humans, we tend to cling to suffering, but in Buddhism for example, one of the main tenets is that suffering is what causes people the most pain in life. That pain is actually inevitable (pain of losing someone for example) but how we handle it (if we choose to suffer over it, dwell on it, worry, etc) will determine the quality of our life. When I was an atheist, I explored Buddhism and found that to be something to take with me, in life.
> 
> Easier said than done though. We may not think that we choose to suffer, but in some ways, maybe we do. Reading stories on here of people who keep staying with abusive jerks in their marriages...that becomes more about the person not seeing their self worth, and choosing to stay in the situation. It's a choice after a while, you know? We don't have to choose it. God helps us make those kinds of decisions. (imo)
> 
> I don't always feel at peace, but peace isn't synonymous with bliss. Peace means that even when life is falling down around you, you are still grounded to handle it. God helps keep me grounded, I guess you could say.
> 
> Have you ever explored other religions/spiritual beliefs for yourself?


I guess Buddhism perhaps is something I could get along with. I am always "on the lookout" for something to fill the "void", without insulting my "intelligence" too much, if there is any left 

I always found it interesting how much the beliefs differ from person to person within one and the same religion. The difference between literal perception and symbolism is pretty staggering among people. My mistake is getting too hung up on literalism as soon as I open the bible; it all immediately falls apart for me, starting with the talking snake and ending with the horrible idea that people came up with about a father killing his son to atone for the sins of human beings. I don't get the same allergic reactions from Buddhism for some reason. I try to look at bible texts from different perspectives but it all seems so inherently self-centered to me.


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## Bibi1031

inmyprime said:


> *The difference here of course is that they are expected to come back and the probability is extremely high that they will.*
> 
> 
> *as soon as they pass away.*




]*The difference here of course is that they are expected to come back and the probability is extremely high that they will.*


I feel that way about death and it is no mere leap of faith. I know because I have testimony my loved ones are where they need to be and with who. 



*as soon as they pass away.*


That is not my decision to make. If I believe that my loved ones are with God and He has showed me this, then I trust him that when my time comes, and he decides when that will be, that I will see my loved ones again. I don't have to do anything but live like I live and let God do what God does because He knows best.:grin2: That is my leap of faith of course. No testimony to back that tidbit right now because I still have quite some journey to travel in this world and I may fall from God's grace but it is highly unlikely that I would not believe that Jesus Christ is my Lord. So I have the gate to heaven covered pretty much. 0

So faith/religion/God has helped in my relationships with my parents and grandparent, just not the partners I have married though.:frown2:


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Yes, i am envious of that peace. I almost never experience it (only sometimes, during meditation).
> It's the constant voice in my head that something terrible is going to happen to me or my family and that it's just a matter of time, that is always talking over me.
> I wish I could stop it but I cannot lie to myself. It's a shame, because life goes by in some kind of terrible anticipation of horror. But it is what it is.


That really sad. :frown2:


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I guess Buddhism perhaps is something I could get along with. I am always "on the lookout" for something to fill the "void", without insulting my "intelligence" too much, if there is any left
> 
> I always found it interesting how much the beliefs differ from person to person within one and the same religion. The difference between literal perception and symbolism is pretty staggering among people. My mistake is getting too hung up on literalism as soon as I open the bible; it all immediately falls apart for me, starting with the talking snake and ending with the horrible idea that people came up with about a father killing his son to atone for the sins of human beings. I don't get the same allergic reactions from Buddhism for some reason. I try to look at bible texts from different perspectives but it all seems so inherently self-centered to me.


There was a very well known British Christian Bible teacher called Derek Prince who died a few years ago. He was a highly intelligent man, with degrees from Oxford university, and he could also speak hebrew and passable greek(both of which were the bibles original languages. 
In his early 20's he was seeking like you and he looked into all of the main religions and read all of their spiritual books eg koran, Bible etc. 
He came to the conclusion that the bible was the only one that made sense and after God healed him of a terrible skin condition, he began to Follow Jesus Christ. 
He became a highly respected Bible teacher.

You may like to listen to some of his teachings.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I *do* worry about the child going to a party/school or wherever it is where I am not present.
> 
> The difference here of course is that they are expected to come back and the probability is extremely high that they will.
> 
> No such judgement can be made about death. It's a total and complete leap of faith that any of those things will actually happen (seeing anyone ever again). I presume you have seen what happens to our bodies when we die. Or to our minds, when we have Alzheimers or similar.
> 
> If one was convinced about reuniting after death, then logically speaking, one would make every effort to find a way (without committing suicide *deliberately*) to get re-united with the loved ones as soon as they pass away. The reason that this does not happen so much tells me that the conviction of it being true cannot be as high.


I know that I will see my loved ones who have died believing in Jesus Christ again. I also have loved ones still alive and that I will die at my appointed time. 
Its not for me to hurry that along, and God has plenty for us to do yet anyway.


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## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I can accept it. But it won't change the fact that I will feel excruciating pain if I lose a loved one or if anything else terrible happens. I am not sure knowing that god will have a plan for them will help in any way.
> I don't know how sustainable this peace can be: if you are a natural worrier, you will continue to worry, no?


I know Christians who used to be real worriers who have gradually learnt to trust God and let that go. We know that God is ultimately in control and that He cares. 
You can be free of that.


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## Diana7

EleGirl said:


> Do you remember the story of Mary Magdalene? The crowd of men were going to stone her for some sexual sin, or prostitution, ??? Anyway, Jesus stopped them and said for the person who has not sinned to throw the first stone.
> 
> I think that pretty much explains Jesus' take on sex and sin.
> 
> No more stoning.


Yes, He didn't condemn her, but He did clearly tell her to go and sin no more. 
So he will forgive if we repent, but we aren't supposed to just carry on doing it.


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## Diana7

EleGirl said:


> It’s one thing to talk about your own faith. But quite another to insult the faith of others. Your statement here about the Catholic Church is untrue and basically ignorant.


I have had many many long discussions with countless RC's in the last 10 years. The more I hear the more that faith troubles me. We are supposed to stand up against wrong unbiblical teaching and beliefs.Most of theirs are man made.


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## Diana7

EleGirl said:


> Are you saying that if a man abuses his wife, beats her, disrespects her, etc. she still has to have sex with him????????


if he beats her or abuses the children, she shouldn't be living with him anyway.


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## EleGirl

Diana7 said:


> I have had many many long discussions with countless RC's in the last 10 years. The more I hear the more that faith troubles me. We are supposed to stand up against wrong unbiblical teaching and beliefs.Most of theirs are man made.


Just because you spoke to a few RC people, does not make their, or your interpretation of RCC, accurate. But I'm not going to get into a discussion of the detail with you here for two reasons. One is that we strongly discourage discussion of the details of faith in the open forums because people do what you have done... insulted the belief of others in a forum where they cannot defend themselves. The other reason is that I used to try to discuss RC with people who are not RC on forums and it always devolves into something very ugly. I have no interest in getting into it.

Do you realize that a lot of what you (and others) say here about your faith troubles a lot of people?

I even had to post a warning to get some of them to stop expressing how much it troubles them.

If you want to discuss the tenants of a particular faith then go start a thread in the Political & Religion forum.

Here, on this thread, it's about how YOUR OWN religious belief affect YOUR marriage. That's it.


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> Just curious if some of you follow any particular faith/religion or set of spiritual beliefs, and has it helped your relationships? If you were/are struggling in your marriages, do you feel being centered in faith is helping you both to improve the relationship?
> 
> I left Christianity for a few years, and then was an atheist for two years, and then returned to the faith last year...and just wonder if making faith the centerpiece of our relationship will help shield us from some pitfalls?


My husband and I both grew up Catholic. I am sure our common faith background, among other things, has helped us sustain our marriage.

My husband does not believe in divorce. He has never said the word to me, and said it has never crossed his mind. To him, whatever conflicts we have, we will find a way to resolve.

We have 5 children. Dug said that a child was always welcome, so there was no conflict over some of the things I read about in this regard in the forum. I really feel lucky for that.

Dug's commitment to the kids and me is total. He does not say that things are my responsibility to deal with on my own. He tries to help me, or at least be a sounding board. That makes me feel close to him.

We are family people, and our faith background certainly supports that.

I feel really lucky to have married a family man. I wish I would have listened to him better over the years. But even with those mistakes, I think things are pretty good. And I am thankful to our faith background for many of the common values we share.


----------



## Bibi1031

jld said:


> My husband and I both grew up Catholic. I am sure our common faith background, among other things, has helped us sustain our marriage.
> 
> My husband does not believe in divorce. He has never said the word to me, and said it has never crossed his mind. To him, whatever conflicts we have, we will find a way to resolve.
> 
> We have 5 children. Dug said that a child was always welcome, so there was no conflict over some of the things I read about in this regard in the forum. I really feel lucky for that.
> 
> Dug's commitment to the kids and me is total. He does not say that things are my responsibility to deal with on my own. He tries to help me, or at least be a sounding board. That makes me feel close to him.
> 
> We are family people, and our faith background certainly supports that.
> 
> I feel really lucky to have married a family man. I wish I would have listened to him better over the years. But even with those mistakes, I think things are pretty good. And I am thankful to our faith background for many of the common values we share.


In this day and age, it is very refreshing that you two make such a great, religious family. May your family remain intact til death due you part and then reunite after death in Heaven. Your marriage is like my mother and father's marriage. Sadly, only one of my parents' children remains married to their first spouse and hopefully they will stay married til death does part them. I wish I could say that I was married to the same old fart all my life. :smile2: Deep down my kids wished this as well, as daughter has stated in the past.

My marriage didn't make it, but yours should give us hope that first marriage love does endure like most of us start our marriages believing ours is going to be that way too. It is very sad that most of us don't make it together til the end. You are the exception and not the norm in this day and age. Congratulations are in order jld and Dug!


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## jld

Bibi1031 said:


> In this day and age, it is very refreshing that you two make such a great, religious family. May your family remain intact til death due you part and then reunite after death in Heaven. Your marriage is like my mother and father's marriage. Sadly, only one of my parents' children remains married to their first spouse and hopefully they will stay married til death does part them. I wish I could say that I was married to the same old fart all my life. :smile2: Deep down my kids wished this as well, as daughter has stated in the past.
> 
> My marriage didn't make it, but yours should give us hope that first marriage love does endure like most of us start our marriages believing ours is going to be that way too. It is very sad that most of us don't make it together til the end. You are the exception and not the norm in this day and age. Congratulations are in order jld and Dug!


Hey, thanks a lot, Bibi. I appreciate your kind words.

I don't know that we can really claim to be a religious family, though, as we rarely attend Mass and our children have not had the sacraments. 

But in our hearts, I think we are definitely a faith-inspired couple. And we will always be grateful to the Church for our common background. 

Thanks for sharing about your own background, and your daughter's feelings. I am really sorry your first marriage did not work out. I wish you many blessings in the next relationship! (((Bibi)))


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## Diana7

jld said:


> My husband and I both grew up Catholic. I am sure our common faith background, among other things, has helped us sustain our marriage.
> 
> My husband does not believe in divorce. He has never said the word to me, and said it has never crossed his mind. To him, whatever conflicts we have, we will find a way to resolve.
> 
> We have 5 children. Dug said that a child was always welcome, so there was no conflict over some of the things I read about in this regard in the forum. I really feel lucky for that.
> 
> Dug's commitment to the kids and me is total. He does not say that things are my responsibility to deal with on my own. He tries to help me, or at least be a sounding board. That makes me feel close to him.
> 
> We are family people, and our faith background certainly supports that.
> 
> I feel really lucky to have married a family man. I wish I would have listened to him better over the years. But even with those mistakes, I think things are pretty good. And I am thankful to our faith background for many of the common values we share.


Its so important that the couple share their faith, as well as moral values etc. 
We are both strong Christians, I was bought up in the anglican church, he in the baptist church, but we have both been to churches several different denominations. 
Our present church where we moved to last year is a lovely friendly welcoming baptist church, we love it there. 
Our marriage has God at its core, we pray together regularly and won't divorce whatever happens. We don't believe in ending a marriage either except for adultery, serious abuse of the spouse or children etc and neither of us would do those things. His first wife met another man and divorced him, he had no choice. He never would have divorced her despite not being very happy in that marriage.

God gives fresh starts and new beginnings. I feel blessed that God bought us together. He is a brilliant step dad to my 3 adult children, and they think very highly of him.


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## Diana7

EleGirl said:


> Just because you spoke to a few RC people, does not make their, or your interpretation of RCC, accurate. But I'm not going to get into a discussion of the detail with you here for two reasons. One is that we strongly discourage discussion of the details of faith in the open forums because people do what you have done... insulted the belief of others in a forum where they cannot defend themselves. The other reason is that I used to try to discuss RC with people who are not RC on forums and it always devolves into something very ugly. I have no interest in getting into it.
> 
> Do you realize that a lot of what you (and others) say here about your faith troubles a lot of people?
> 
> I even had to post a warning to get some of them to stop expressing how much it troubles them.
> 
> If you want to discuss the tenants of a particular faith then go start a thread in the Political & Religion forum.
> 
> Here, on this thread, it's about how YOUR OWN religious belief affect YOUR marriage. That's it.


I cant help that my christian faith troubles people, it will do because its not liked in the world. This section though is about spirituality, maybe if people are offended by christianity they shouldn't come to this section?


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> I guess Buddhism perhaps is something I could get along with. I am always "on the lookout" for something to fill the "void", without insulting my "intelligence" too much, if there is any left
> 
> I always found it interesting how much the beliefs differ from person to person within one and the same religion. The difference between literal perception and symbolism is pretty staggering among people. My mistake is getting too hung up on literalism as soon as I open the bible; it all immediately falls apart for me, starting with the talking snake and ending with the horrible idea that people came up with about a father killing his son to atone for the sins of human beings. I don't get the same allergic reactions from Buddhism for some reason. I try to look at bible texts from different perspectives but it all seems so inherently self-centered to me.


How is serving others, self-centered? The Bible is big on that.


----------



## 269370

[/LIST]


*Deidre* said:


> How is serving others, self-centered? The Bible is big on that.


I just posted this on the other thread: "For me, it's the self-centered aspect of Christianity that is sometimes causing indigestion. It's not just the whole "God loves ME" thing, which is fine and comforting, but the whole crucifixion idea: how people managed to turn the whole thing on its head and make it about themselves is, for the current times, difficult to comprehend. Instead of putting their hands up and just acknowledge "yep, we ****ed up, we crucified an innocent guy/god", they somehow twisted it into the story that god thought it was a great idea to kill his son as a way to absolve humanity from their sins: terribly self-centered IMO. Even if I believed in Jesus, I would not be able to feel "entitled" to reap a personal benefit from his death. It's like kicking someone, when they are already down."

I view it that way, but I understand that others may not view it that way. 

When I look up at the sky, and see the billions of stars in our galaxy and the billions of galaxies with billions of stars in each of them, and trillions of planets, the absolute vastness of it all leaves me in awe and makes me realise what a small part we play in the sum of the whole. When I also imagine that within all this space, there might be a god who is interested in me personally, it makes me feel self-centered and it somehow doesn't fit into the whole picture. 

*We* are the ones who need god in order to have meaning and purpose in our lives. *We* need god to make sense of the horrible things that happen all around us. *We* need god to comfort us during times of personal struggle, rejection and failure. 

God can go about just fine without us. Do you feel he needs us?


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> [/LIST]
> 
> I just posted this on the other thread: "For me, it's the self-centered aspect of Christianity that is sometimes causing indigestion. It's not just the whole "God loves ME" thing, which is fine and comforting, but the whole crucifixion idea: how people managed to turn the whole thing on its head and make it about themselves is, for the current times, difficult to comprehend. Instead of putting their hands up and just acknowledge "yep, we ****ed up, we crucified an innocent guy/god", they somehow twisted it into the story that god thought it was a great idea to kill his son as a way to absolve humanity from their sins: terribly self-centered IMO. Even if I believed in Jesus, I would not be able to feel "entitled" to reap a personal benefit from his death. It's like kicking someone, when they are already down."
> 
> I view it that way, but I understand that others may not view it that way.
> 
> When I look up at the sky, and see the billions of stars in our galaxy and the billions of galaxies with billions of stars in each of them, and trillions of planets, the absolute vastness of it all leaves me in awe and makes me realise what a small part we play in the sum of the whole. When I also imagine that within all this space, there might be a god who is interested in me personally, it makes me feel self-centered and it somehow doesn't fit into the whole picture.
> 
> *We* are the ones who need god in order to have meaning and purpose in our lives. *We* need god to make sense of the horrible things that happen all around us. *We* need god to comfort us during times of personal struggle, rejection and failure.
> 
> God can go about just fine without us. Do you feel he needs us?


Are you an atheist evangelist? 

I don't feel God needs us, we need Him. I feel that God loves us, and desires a relationship with us. But, God seems unfathomable, in many ways. I think that is why I don't cling to the Bible for the entirety of my faith, because I don't think we'll ever completely ''know'' God, and there is something more comforting in that than pretending like we know everything about Him, when how could we?


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Are you an atheist evangelist?


No idea  



*Deidre* said:


> I don't feel God needs us, we need Him. I feel that God loves us, and desires a relationship with us.


That's what I meant by self-centered. I feel Buddhism removes the idea of a personal god and is closer to my idea that we are part of a large system, beyond our comprehension. The more I read about it, the more it resonates with me somehow:

"If atheism is the absence of belief in a God or gods, then many Buddhists are, indeed, atheists.

Buddhism is not about either believing or not believing in God or gods. Rather, the historical Buddha taught that believing in gods was not useful for those seeking to realize enlightenment. 
Buddhism is a path to "waking up," or becoming enlightened, to a reality that is not consciously perceived by most of us. In most schools of Buddhism, it is understood that enlightenment and nirvana cannot be conceptualized or explained with words. They must be intimately experienced to be understood. Merely "believing in" enlightenment and nirvana is pointless.

One might say that in Buddhism, the big question is not whether gods exist, but what is the nature of existence?

And what is the self?

Some medieval Christian mystics, such as the anonymous author of The Cloud of Unknowing, argued that it is incorrect to say that God exists, because existence amounts to taking a particular form within a space of time. Because God has no particular form and is outside of time, God, therefore, cannot be said to exist. However, God is. That's an argument that many of us atheistic Buddhists can appreciate."

https://www.thoughtco.com/atheism-and-devotion-in-buddhism-449718

But I know this is not going to make it any easier to come to terms with all the crap that life throws at us.

Maybe I am a Buddhist Evangelist now?


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> No idea
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I meant by self-centered. I feel Buddhism removes the idea of a personal god and is closer to my idea that we are part of a large system, beyond our comprehension. The more I read about it, the more it resonates with me somehow:
> 
> "If atheism is the absence of belief in a God or gods, then many Buddhists are, indeed, atheists.
> 
> Buddhism is not about either believing or not believing in God or gods. Rather, the historical Buddha taught that believing in gods was not useful for those seeking to realize enlightenment.
> Buddhism is a path to "waking up," or becoming enlightened, to a reality that is not consciously perceived by most of us. In most schools of Buddhism, it is understood that enlightenment and nirvana cannot be conceptualized or explained with words. They must be intimately experienced to be understood. Merely "believing in" enlightenment and nirvana is pointless.
> 
> One might say that in Buddhism, the big question is not whether gods exist, but what is the nature of existence?
> 
> And what is the self?
> 
> Some medieval Christian mystics, such as the anonymous author of The Cloud of Unknowing, argued that it is incorrect to say that God exists, because existence amounts to taking a particular form within a space of time. Because God has no particular form and is outside of time, God, therefore, cannot be said to exist. However, God is. That's an argument that many of us atheistic Buddhists can appreciate."
> 
> https://www.thoughtco.com/atheism-and-devotion-in-buddhism-449718
> 
> But I know this is not going to make it any easier to come to terms with all the crap that life throws at us.
> 
> Maybe I am a Buddhist Evangelist now?


lol Maybe. 

And maybe it's okay to believe in a few ideas that all don't fall under a safe umbrella of one faith. I wonder sometimes, how Jesus would view other spiritual beliefs? I think He had a basic sentiment ''you'll know them by their fruits.'' So, if their fruits are rotten, probably best to steer clear. Buddhism is pretty cool, but it's not an easy belief system, it does require a lot of discipline.

So, like Easter is coming up, do you spend time with religious people on that day? When I left faith for a few years, I still spent time with people who are religious, my family, and some friends. I think having been religious and not religious, it offers me an interesting, balanced perspective into what both ''sides'' are thinking. We're not on sides, but you know what I mean.


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## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> lol Maybe.
> 
> And maybe it's okay to believe in a few ideas that all don't fall under a safe umbrella of one faith. I wonder sometimes, how Jesus would view other spiritual beliefs? I think He had a basic sentiment ''you'll know them by their fruits.'' So, if their fruits are rotten, probably best to steer clear. Buddhism is pretty cool, but it's not an easy belief system, it does require a lot of discipline.


Well, apparently Jesus was a Buddhist:

http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html

so now you have heard everything :wink2:


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Well, apparently Jesus was a Buddhist:
> 
> http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html
> 
> so now you have heard everything :wink2:


lol I'm SO glad I'm having a glass of wine right now. 

But, you know, I enjoy these discussions. I enjoy different view points on religion, and there are so many spiritual ideas out there. Different cultures also breed different beliefs. It doesn't have to threaten anyone's belief system to merely talk about it with others, you know? 

So, it's nice to have these objective chats.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> How is serving others, self-centered? The Bible is big on that.


I agree. The christians I know are the most outward looking, kind and caring people who do loads for others.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> lol Maybe.
> 
> And maybe it's okay to believe in a few ideas that all don't fall under a safe umbrella of one faith. I wonder sometimes, how Jesus would view other spiritual beliefs? I think He had a basic sentiment ''you'll know them by their fruits.'' So, if their fruits are rotten, probably best to steer clear. Buddhism is pretty cool, but it's not an easy belief system, it does require a lot of discipline.
> 
> So, like Easter is coming up, do you spend time with religious people on that day? When I left faith for a few years, I still spent time with people who are religious, my family, and some friends. I think having been religious and not religious, it offers me an interesting, balanced perspective into what both ''sides'' are thinking. We're not on sides, but you know what I mean.


Except that Jesus was very clear about how we are saved. 'I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me' 
I think He sees those in other faiths with sadness because He wants them to be saved. He wants them to know Him, as Gods Son, as the one who saves and heals and restores. He longs for that. 
Many muslims in the middle east are seeing Jesus in dreams and visions and converting. Many are also being healed. I have a friend who was a hindu who has come to know Jesus.Its exciting.


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I agree. The christians I know are the most outward looking, kind and caring people who do loads for others.




You misunderstand. I don't mean all believers are self-centered. Nor does serving others precludes self-"centeredness".

The religion is self-centered, because it's mostly about deriving a personal benefit from believing (coming to terms with difficult issues, afterlife etc). Does believing this particular religion make you feel better about things? Of course it does. It is mostly about this aspect why people are attracted to it. It is less so about seeking the ultimate truth because the 'truth' has already been told. If you look at other religions/philosophies, you will note the difference. (I'm not saying any is superior or inferior, just that they are all different and important to people, for different reasons).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

...


----------



## *Deidre*

Diana7 said:


> Except that Jesus was very clear about how we are saved. 'I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me'
> I think He sees those in other faiths with sadness because He wants them to be saved. He wants them to know Him, as Gods Son, as the one who saves and heals and restores. He longs for that.
> Many muslims in the middle east are seeing Jesus in dreams and visions and converting. Many are also being healed. I have a friend who was a hindu who has come to know Jesus.Its exciting.


That is exciting. 
Yes, that's just it, we can respect other beliefs, but I, like you, follow Jesus and believe in His truth. I don't think other religions are entirely ''wrong'' as there are some positives to glean in other spiritual beliefs. But, in terms of worship, that is where I draw the line, I guess.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> You misunderstand. I don't mean all believers are self-centered. Nor does serving others exclude self-"centeredness".
> 
> The religion is self-centered, because it's mostly about deriving a personal benefit from believing (coming to terms with difficult issues, afterlife etc). Does believing this particular religion make you feel better about things? Of course it does. It is mostly about this aspect why people are attracted to it. It is less so about seeking the ultimate truth because the 'truth' has already been told. If you look at other religions/philosophies, you will note the difference. (I'm not saying any is superior or inferior, just that they are all different and important to people, for different reasons).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its far from just getting a personal benefit, being a Christian can be very hard at times. You are going 'against the flow' in most countries. In many countries you can be tortured and killed for it. Its also a life that should be far more giving and caring than life without God. So far less selfish.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> That is exciting.
> Yes, that's just it, we can respect other beliefs, but I, like you, follow Jesus and believe in His truth. I don't think other religions are entirely ''wrong'' as there are some positives to glean in other spiritual beliefs. But, in terms of worship, that is where I draw the line, I guess.


I can respect the people, but I struggle to respect a faith that can't save people. :frown2:


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## Bibi1031

Diana7 said:


> I can respect the people, but I struggle to respect a faith that can't save people. :frown2:


Let go and let God, he will do what no man can. That is something Catholics have, it's called tolerance. :smile2:


----------



## *Deidre*

Diana7 said:


> I can respect the people, but I struggle to respect a faith that can't save people. :frown2:


But God saves people. In my opinion, our faith is showing God that we cooperate with His grace, but only He can save people. Only He knows our hearts, and He is merciful. So, in the end, it might surprise many believers as to who might be ''saved.'' But, I think that our best lives are when we choose to have faith.


----------



## Diana7

Bibi1031 said:


> Let go and let God, he will do what no man can. That is something Catholics have, it's called tolerance. :smile2:


Tolerance doesn't save people, only the truth does. People need to hear the truth to be saved.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> But God saves people. In my opinion, our faith is showing God that we cooperate with His grace, but only He can save people. Only He knows our hearts, and He is merciful. So, in the end, it might surprise many believers as to who might be ''saved.'' But, I think that our best lives are when we choose to have faith.


Well God does tell us how to be saved, through believing in and following Jesus Christ. There is no other way.


----------



## Bibi1031

Diana7 said:


> Tolerance doesn't save people, only the truth does. People need to hear the truth to be saved.


Tolerance doesn't equate negating Truth. By letting go and leaving to God what is His, we accept that we are not fit for the job of spreading the good news to EVERYONE. We let God do it His way. His way after all got me to believe in Him and not anyone else or any religion by the way. 

You just mentioned in a prior post how Jesus was doing what no other can. He comes to the mountain (man) when the mountain can't come to Him.:smile2:

God has no bounds. Your prior post shows us that. Trust that everyone will hear the good news. He is taking care of business!


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I can respect the people, but I struggle to respect a faith that can't save people. :frown2:




That makes me feel sad  
Can you imagine: those people may feel the same about you? Trying to save each other all day long...Which one is the doomed one? 
Find out, in the next episode on HBO 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> Except that Jesus was very clear about how we are saved. 'I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me'
> 
> I think He sees those in other faiths with sadness because He wants them to be saved. He wants them to know Him, as Gods Son, as the one who saves and heals and restores. He longs for that.
> 
> Many muslims in the middle east are seeing Jesus in dreams and visions and converting. Many are also being healed. I have a friend who was a hindu who has come to know Jesus.Its exciting.




Why does he not just come out and say so? What's the point of hiding in dreams? It would save people like me (and others) a lot of agony...Is it really that difficult for a god who made everything to just...come out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jb02157

Bibi1031 said:


> In this day and age, it is very refreshing that you two make such a great, religious family. May your family remain intact til death due you part and then reunite after death in Heaven. Your marriage is like my mother and father's marriage. Sadly, only one of my parents' children remains married to their first spouse and hopefully they will stay married til death does part them. I wish I could say that I was married to the same old fart all my life. :smile2: Deep down my kids wished this as well, as daughter has stated in the past.
> 
> My marriage didn't make it, but yours should give us hope that first marriage love does endure like most of us start our marriages believing ours is going to be that way too. It is very sad that most of us don't make it together til the end. You are the exception and not the norm in this day and age. Congratulations are in order jld and Dug!


I wish that we were like that, that we had a success story of our own. It's not that God hasn't blessed our marriage, He has, in some ways, but our marriage while blessed in some ways is the height of dysfunction in others. I've spent countless hours praying and crying about this I don't know what else to do. I want a great marriage but it just doesn't seem that she does. I know that we were brought together for a reason and He that started a good work in us will carry it out to completion, it's just that I don't know where that is right now. I know that Christian couples do get divorced but I don't want that to be us. It's hard for me to think that that's what He wants for us. If not, I really don't know what's it's going to take for us to get better.


----------



## *Deidre*

Diana7 said:


> Well God does tell us how to be saved, through believing in and following Jesus Christ. There is no other way.


But, we can't make that judgement from where we are. I don't know who will be saved, in the end.


----------



## *Deidre*

jb02157 said:


> I wish that we were like that, that we had a success story of our own. It's not that God hasn't blessed our marriage, He has, in some ways, but our marriage while blessed in some ways is the height of dysfunction in others. I've spent countless hours praying and crying about this I don't know what else to do. I want a great marriage but it just doesn't seem that she does. I know that we were brought together for a reason and He that started a good work in us will carry it out to completion, it's just that I don't know where that is right now. I know that Christian couples do get divorced but I don't want that to be us. It's hard for me to think that that's what He wants for us. If not, I really don't know what's it's going to take for us to get better.


I'm sorry you're struggling in your marriage, I've read a little of your story, and your wife, from the sounds of it, seems abusive.  I don't know if God would expect us to remain in abusive relationships. I'll pray for you both, too.


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Why does he not just come out and say so? What's the point of hiding in dreams? It would save people like me (and others) a lot of agony...Is it really that difficult for a god who made everything to just...come out?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what faith is about though.


----------



## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> lol Maybe.
> 
> And maybe it's okay to believe in a few ideas that all don't fall under a safe umbrella of one faith. I wonder sometimes, how Jesus would view other spiritual beliefs? I think He had a basic sentiment ''you'll know them by their fruits.'' So, if their fruits are rotten, probably best to steer clear. Buddhism is pretty cool, but it's not an easy belief system, it does require a lot of discipline.
> 
> So, like Easter is coming up, do you spend time with religious people on that day? When I left faith for a few years, I still spent time with people who are religious, my family, and some friends. I think having been religious and not religious, it offers me an interesting, balanced perspective into what both ''sides'' are thinking. We're not on sides, but you know what I mean.


I am not sure you really *were* a proper atheist. They usually don't "return" 

I am not sure there will be anyone religious this Easter here. My mum became extremely religious more recently (Judaism) and I think my sister is too, so it always makes for "interesting" conversations...Plus, I pray for them to see the light one day 

I do think a lot of it has to do with parents. I grew up pretty secularly as did my wife. Even though she had a lot of religion drilled into her in school, she still somehow ended up an atheist (possibly more so than me). So maybe family makes more of a difference. 
I presume your parents were religious?
My 6 year old daughter is asking interesting questions. She said today that she doesn't understand why there are so many gods and how do people know how to choose the right one. I was like "yeah, that's definitely *my* girl"


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> I am not sure you really *were* a proper atheist. They usually don't "return"


 Well, you don't speak for all atheists. 



> I am not sure there will be anyone religious this Easter here. My mum became extremely religious more recently (Judaism) and I think my sister is too, so it always makes for "interesting" conversations...Plus, I pray for them to see the light one day
> 
> I do think a lot of it has to do with parents. I grew up pretty secularly as did my wife. Even though she had a lot of religion drilled into her in school, she still somehow ended up an atheist (possibly more so than me). So maybe family makes more of a difference.
> I presume your parents were religious?
> My 6 year old daughter is asking interesting questions. She said today that she doesn't understand why there are so many gods and how do people know how to choose the right one. I was like "yeah, that's definitely *my* girl"


I think being raised with atheist parents would be pretty cool considering that when you become an adult, you don't have any indoctrination from the past. Will you let your daughter decide for herself, will you sway her opinion, etc?


----------



## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> Well, you don't speak for all atheists.


"Atheists" are not a group, remember?  Only in the eyes of the believers.



*Deidre* said:


> I think being raised with atheist parents would be pretty cool considering that when you become an adult, you don't have any indoctrination from the past. Will you let your daughter decide for herself, will you sway her opinion, etc?


Absolutely not! She is free to make up her own mind. That's all I ever encourage (on these boards too). 
It's weird but part of me almost _wants_ her to believe something. Or I would find it more sad if she was a 100% realist, rather than a believer (if those were the only two options). I think it's nice to have imagination and keep an open, creative and curious mind.

I noticed for some, the need to believe is almost physical. I am 75% convinced a lot of it comes from parents in many cases.


----------



## *Deidre*

This might come as a surprise to you inmyprime, but I just live and let live...and don't really care what you think of my ''beliefs.'' 

Thanks for the chat, but at this point, you've derailed the thread long enough by your veiled insults to believers. I'd like it if you'd stop doing that, thanks.


----------



## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> This might come as a surprise to you inmyprime, but I just live and let live...and don't really care what you think of my ''beliefs.''
> 
> Thanks for the chat, but at this point, you've derailed the thread long enough by your veiled insults to believers. I'd like it if you'd stop doing that, thanks.


Of course, I am more than happy not chat anymore.

Could you perhaps point out to me where I insulted your beliefs in my post? Because I cannot see it.


----------



## jld

inmyprime said:


> Of course, I am more than happy not chat anymore.
> 
> Could you perhaps point out to me where I insulted your beliefs in my post? Because I cannot see it.


Why don't you just start a thread pointing out what you see as the inconsistencies of belief systems over in P&R? You and Andy could share your thoughts on your own thread there.


----------



## Bibi1031

inmyprime said:


> Could you perhaps point out to me where I insulted your beliefs in my post? *Because I cannot see it.*


If course you can't. No digging necessary as it is useless in this case...:grin2:


----------



## 269370

jld said:


> Why don't you just start a thread pointing out what you see as the inconsistencies of belief systems over in P&R? You and Andy could share your thoughts on your own thread there.


I think I will pass @jld. Nobody really benefits from these conversations.


----------



## jld

inmyprime said:


> I think I will pass @jld. Nobody really benefits from these conversations.


 I think some interesting points were raised. I learned some things, anyway.

I am sorry if this is a t/j, Deidre. Back to the subject of your thread now . . .


----------



## *Deidre*

inmyprime said:


> Of course, I am more than happy not chat anymore.
> 
> Could you perhaps point out to me where I insulted your beliefs in my post? Because I cannot see it.


I know you don't see it, and that's the problem. I don't want to spar with you, and this thread wasn't to get into debates with non-believers. I've shared my views, and I've been respectful to you, but you are not all that respectful in return, and that's your choice. But, I echo the suggestion to create your own thread to debate theists/believers, because that seems more like what you're interested in. Anyway, thanks for the chat, again.


----------



## 269370

*Deidre* said:


> I know you don't see it, and that's the problem. I don't want to spar with you, and this thread wasn't to get into debates with non-believers. I've shared my views, and I've been respectful to you, but you are not all that respectful in return, and that's your choice. But, I echo the suggestion to create your own thread to debate theists/believers, because that seems more like what you're interested in. Anyway, thanks for the chat, again.


I was being extra-careful with you and didn't think we were "sparring" or debating or "derailing". I was answering your questions. If you didn't think I was answering them respectfully then I must have failed.

That is fine and this is your thread and I am only happy to leave you to it.
Thanks, also.


----------



## Diana7

Bibi1031 said:


> Tolerance doesn't equate negating Truth. By letting go and leaving to God what is His, we accept that we are not fit for the job of spreading the good news to EVERYONE. We let God do it His way. His way after all got me to believe in Him and not anyone else or any religion by the way.
> 
> You just mentioned in a prior post how Jesus was doing what no other can. He comes to the mountain (man) when the mountain can't come to Him.:smile2:
> 
> God has no bounds. Your prior post shows us that. Trust that everyone will hear the good news. He is taking care of business!


God does tell us that we should spread the message. Only yesterday my husband was talking to a guy who came to fit some flooring about his faith. They had a good talk. He often prays for people he meets and most are happy for him to do that. God chooses to use us to make Him known. We cant just sit back and say, its ok God will do it because that's not how it works. Yes there are times when He will appear in dreams and visions, but that's usually in places where its very hard for anyone to reach people, such as very strict muslim countries in the middle east. 
In the mean time millions of people are dying who aren't saved. :frown2:


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> That makes me feel sad
> Can you imagine: those people may feel the same about you? Trying to save each other all day long...Which one is the doomed one?
> Find out, in the next episode on HBO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just know.If I wasnt sure I wouldn't have followed God for 40 years.I have seen so many lives changed, people come out of crime, people healed, set free from addictions, impossible things happen.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Why does he not just come out and say so? What's the point of hiding in dreams? It would save people like me (and others) a lot of agony...Is it really that difficult for a god who made everything to just...come out?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He isnt hiding in dreams, He is using them to reach people who live in places where they aren't being reached by many people, such as in strict muslim countries. 
He has come out and said so, that's why Jesus came. Its all in the Bible. Read Johns gospel. He was here, on earth, with us.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> But, we can't make that judgement from where we are. I don't know who will be saved, in the end.


Gods word does tell us what saves us, and that is believing in His Son Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself says that its only through Him that we are saved. That's why we need to tell others.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> I am not sure you really *were* a proper atheist. They usually don't "return"
> 
> I am not sure there will be anyone religious this Easter here. My mum became extremely religious more recently (Judaism) and I think my sister is too, so it always makes for "interesting" conversations...Plus, I pray for them to see the light one day
> 
> I do think a lot of it has to do with parents. I grew up pretty secularly as did my wife. Even though she had a lot of religion drilled into her in school, she still somehow ended up an atheist (possibly more so than me). So maybe family makes more of a difference.
> I presume your parents were religious?
> My 6 year old daughter is asking interesting questions. She said today that she doesn't understand why there are so many gods and how do people know how to choose the right one. I was like "yeah, that's definitely *my* girl"


The last 2 church leader we knew both had non believing parents. One has a dad who is still very against his calling 25-30 years later. There are many Christians who weren't bought up that way. A close Christian friend of mine has had no family members at all who are Christians, and another friend was bought up as a hindu.

There are many atheists who come to know Jesus Christ. Another good friend of mine has a husband who was very anti Christianity for many years, and made life really hard for her. 2 years ago at age 70 he converted. He is a changed man.


----------



## Bibi1031

Diana7 said:


> *God does tell us that we should spread the message. *Only yesterday my husband was talking to a guy who came to fit some flooring about his faith. They had a good talk. He often prays for people he meets and most are happy for him to do that. *God chooses to use us to make Him known.* We cant just sit back and say, its ok God will do it because that's not how it works. Yes there are times when He will appear in dreams and visions, but that's usually in places where its very hard for anyone to reach people, such as very strict muslim countries in the middle east.
> *In the mean time millions of people are dying who aren't saved. *:frown2:


I completely agree with the first two bold parts of your quote. 

There are more ways to skin that cat; the spread the message cat, that is. 0

Indeed, God uses us to make Him known; no preaching, praying, or banging on doors that don't want it are necessary most of the time. Just live like He has asked that those who believe in Him should live. Leading by example is the best way to allow God to use us IMO.

As to the last bold part of your quote; I don't agree with you. In fact, I completely disagree with your numbers as well. But like I have said before; in the end, all shall be revealed.


----------



## jb02157

*Deidre* said:


> I'm sorry you're struggling in your marriage, I've read a little of your story, and your wife, from the sounds of it, seems abusive.  I don't know if God would expect us to remain in abusive relationships. I'll pray for you both, too.


I had that thought to, what she has done is borderline abuse. I also face financial consequences if I do choose to separate from or divorce her. Not a cut and dried decision and whichever way I go I'll lose significantly. Thanks for the prayers.


----------



## urf

No


----------



## WonkyNinja

Diana7 said:


> Gods word does tell us what saves us, and that is believing in His Son Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself says that its only through Him that we are saved. *That's why we need to tell others.*


No, you don't. That's the whole point from the other end of the belief spectrum, or other religions.

This would be a much better world if people learned to accept and respect the rights of others to not believe the same way they they do.


----------



## Diana7

Bibi1031 said:


> I completely agree with the first two bold parts of your quote.
> 
> There are more ways to skin that cat; the spread the message cat, that is. 0
> 
> Indeed, God uses us to make Him known; no preaching, praying, or banging on doors that don't want it are necessary most of the time. Just live like He has asked that those who believe in Him should live. Leading by example is the best way to allow God to use us IMO.
> 
> As to the last bold part of your quote; I don't agree with you. In fact, I completely disagree with your numbers as well. But like I have said before; in the end, all shall be revealed.


Jesus tell us that following Him is like walking the narrow path and few will find it He says.The wide path leads to destruction which is why we are to be a light for the word to see. 

https://www.gotquestions.org/narrow-path.html

My husband lets God lead Him. So if He feels God has given Him a word for someone he will give it. If he feels God wants him to pray for someone he will ask for permission first, and he has never had anyone say no yet.


----------



## Diana7

WonkyNinja said:


> No, you don't. That's the whole point from the other end of the belief spectrum, or other religions.
> 
> This would be a much better world if people learned to accept and respect the rights of others to not believe the same way they they do.


Yes we do, we are told to tell others. They can choose to reject it, but we don't want anyone to perish. 
So for example, if the JW's come to our door I will politely say, no thank you, but I respect that they are sincere.


----------



## Diana7

jb02157 said:


> I had that thought to, what she has done is borderline abuse. I also face financial consequences if I do choose to separate from or divorce her. Not a cut and dried decision and whichever way I go I'll lose significantly. Thanks for the prayers.


There are always financial consequences to any divorce. You can't run 2 homes on the same money and there not be consequences.


----------



## *Deidre*

While I'm aware of the passage ''go out and make Disciples of all nations" ...Jesus also told His followers to shake the dust from their feet, when people dismissed the message. I think most people especially in the west, know the Bible story, knowing what Christianity teaches. It honestly doesn't teach that if you don't believe, you'll ''perish.'' God's love is hard to understand, and He is merciful. I share my beliefs in the context of conversations about faith, etc...but I don't believe we need to walk up to every person we meet on a day to day basis, asking if they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior? I believe we all have ways to connect with others, and it's not my place to judge another person's destiny.

When I left Christianity for a few years, many people tried to ''bring me back.'' Many of them were offensive, and thought that they spoke for God. What led me back to faith was the Holy Spirit, an actual experience I had. A miracle, for lack of a better word. Faith can't be forced onto others, God doesn't force Himself onto us, so we can pray for people's conversion, we can share our faith, etc. But, it is between God and the person, at the end of the day.


----------



## Bibi1031

Diana7 said:


> Jesus tell us that following Him is like walking the narrow path and few will find it He says.The wide path leads to destruction which is why *we are to be a light for the word to see. *
> 
> 
> My husband lets God lead Him. So if He feels God has given Him a word for someone he will give it. If he feels God wants him to pray for someone he will ask for permission first, and he has never had anyone say no yet.


bold part being the case in point. The world can see by how you live, anything else is not necessarily the way to do it anymore. Times change @Diana7. We live in a world where things happen and at that moment someone has access to what is going on and uploads it to the web. It then becomes global. No need to go house by house preaching the gospel, there are quicker, faster, easier ways to do it now. Place your life on the web, your audience that wants to hear your message will multiply in numbers.

...again, more than one way to skin the spread the news cat. 

Sadly, it is people that think like you that make some non-believers, and any other denomination that is not Christian based upset. Maybe they don't want you preaching on them. They have every right to not want to hear you. If they want to hear the good news, they can get it with the click of a mouse plain and simple. 

It is in those nations where people have no access to these means that God is doing what man can't. You and I preaching here is of no use nor a recommended place to do so. 

It is good for discussion, but it converts no one because IMO it is not what this forum is for.


----------



## Bibi1031

*Deidre* said:


> While I'm aware of the passage ''go out and make Disciples of all nations" ...Jesus also told His followers to shake the dust from their feet, when people dismissed the message. I think most people especially in the west, know the Bible story, knowing what Christianity teaches. It honestly doesn't teach that if you don't believe, you'll ''perish.'' God's love is hard to understand, and He is merciful. I share my beliefs in the context of conversations about faith, etc...but I don't believe we need to walk up to every person we meet on a day to day basis, asking if they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior? I believe we all have ways to connect with others, and it's not my place to judge another person's destiny.
> 
> *When I left Christianity for a few years, many people tried to ''bring me back.'' Many of them were offensive, and thought that they spoke for God. What led me back to faith was the Holy Spirit, an actual experience I had. A miracle, for lack of a better word. Faith can't be forced onto others, God doesn't force Himself onto us, so we can pray for people's conversion, we can share our faith, etc. But, it is between God and the person, at the end of the day.*


Bolded for truth!

I couldn't of expressed what I went through more eloquently @*Deidre*. Man didn't convert me either, not even my family or my past experiences when I was born into the Catholic faith. I stepped out of my faith when I was a young adult, but it was indeed the Holy Spirit once more that brought me back to where I belonged. 

Who converted you @Diana7?


----------



## *Deidre*

Bibi1031 said:


> Bolded for truth!
> 
> I couldn't of expressed what I went through more eloquently @*Deidre*. Man didn't convert me either, not even my family or my past experiences when I was born into the Catholic faith. I stepped out of my faith when I was a young adult, but it was indeed the Holy Spirit once more that brought me back to where I belonged.
> 
> Who converted you @Diana7?


That's awesome, thank you for sharing! 

I'd say that I understand where Diana is coming from, in that I've sat through sermons where the pastor stresses ''we are the eyes and ears of Christ,'' for example, but that can mean many things. It doesn't mean we are responsible for someone's conversion, we're not. We never will be. So, sharing the faith is helpful, but it's ultimately between God and the person. 

My fiance for example is rather moderate in his beliefs. He doesn't like attending church, and I wonder sometimes, how this might impact things when we have kids someday. I'm not super religious, but I'd like to raise our kids with our core beliefs. He doesn't see it as that important, but I don't want him to just follow along with me, if his heart's not there. So, this is something we probably should figure out.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> While I'm aware of the passage ''go out and make Disciples of all nations" ...Jesus also told His followers to shake the dust from their feet, when people dismissed the message. I think most people especially in the west, know the Bible story, knowing what Christianity teaches. It honestly doesn't teach that if you don't believe, you'll ''perish.'' God's love is hard to understand, and He is merciful. I share my beliefs in the context of conversations about faith, etc...but I don't believe we need to walk up to every person we meet on a day to day basis, asking if they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior? I believe we all have ways to connect with others, and it's not my place to judge another person's destiny.
> 
> When I left Christianity for a few years, many people tried to ''bring me back.'' Many of them were offensive, and thought that they spoke for God. What led me back to faith was the Holy Spirit, an actual experience I had. A miracle, for lack of a better word. Faith can't be forced onto others, God doesn't force Himself onto us, so we can pray for people's conversion, we can share our faith, etc. But, it is between God and the person, at the end of the day.


I am not going to give up on those I love who don't know Jesus Christ. A husband of a good friend of mine has recently become a Christian at the age of 70. She has been praying for him for about 40 years. 
As I said, if people reject the message that is their choice, but there are so many who still have no idea what being a Christian means, even in the west. The UK where I live is a very secular nation now, most children hear nothing about Jesus Christ at school or home. 
I will forever be grateful for a friend of mine who told me about her faith when we were 15. 

Yes the Bible is very clear that if we don't believe we will perish. Read that article I posted, its all there. Jesus came so that all who believe in Him will be saved.


----------



## Diana7

Bibi1031 said:


> Bolded for truth!
> 
> I couldn't of expressed what I went through more eloquently @*Deidre*. Man didn't convert me either, not even my family or my past experiences when I was born into the Catholic faith. I stepped out of my faith when I was a young adult, but it was indeed the Holy Spirit once more that brought me back to where I belonged.
> 
> Who converted you @Diana7?


My best friend at school told me about her faith when we were 15. She took me to her church and shortly after that I became a Christian and was baptised. I know loads of people who came to know Jesus through others. Unless you have Christian parents, thats the only way you will hear about Jesus Christ in most countries.


----------



## Diana7

*Deidre* said:


> That's awesome, thank you for sharing!
> 
> I'd say that I understand where Diana is coming from, in that I've sat through sermons where the pastor stresses ''we are the eyes and ears of Christ,'' for example, but that can mean many things. It doesn't mean we are responsible for someone's conversion, we're not. We never will be. So, sharing the faith is helpful, but it's ultimately between God and the person.
> 
> My fiance for example is rather moderate in his beliefs. He doesn't like attending church, and I wonder sometimes, how this might impact things when we have kids someday. I'm not super religious, but I'd like to raise our kids with our core beliefs. He doesn't see it as that important, but I don't want him to just follow along with me, if his heart's not there. So, this is something we probably should figure out.


That may well cause problems for you. After my first marriage ended, I wasn't going to marry again unless I met a man who was a strongly committed Christian. It makes such a difference.


----------



## Bibi1031

Diana7 said:


> My best friend at school told me about her faith when we were 15. She took me to her church and shortly after that I became a Christian and was baptised. I know loads of people who came to know Jesus through others. Unless you have Christian parents, thats the only way you will hear about Jesus Christ in most countries.


Thank you for your response. So you were sent the message via a friend, not a stranger knocking at your door or preaching at you. If you want to show someone the way to your God, invite them to your place of worship and let them decide if that is where they belong or if God needs to keep knocking on their heart. He will always do what man can't @Diana7! 

Your friend doesn't own your converting to Christianity, the Holy Spirit does. We do everything for his glory, we are just vessels he uses to spread the good news. All glory is and always will be to God.


----------



## Diana7

Bibi1031 said:


> bold part being the case in point. The world can see by how you live, anything else is not necessarily the way to do it anymore. Times change @Diana7. We live in a world where things happen and at that moment someone has access to what is going on and uploads it to the web. It then becomes global. No need to go house by house preaching the gospel, there are quicker, faster, easier ways to do it now. Place your life on the web, your audience that wants to hear your message will multiply in numbers.
> 
> ...again, more than one way to skin the spread the news cat.
> 
> Sadly, it is people that think like you that make some non-believers, and any other denomination that is not Christian based upset. Maybe they don't want you preaching on them. They have every right to not want to hear you. If they want to hear the good news, they can get it with the click of a mouse plain and simple.
> 
> It is in those nations where people have no access to these means that God is doing what man can't. You and I preaching here is of no use nor a recommended place to do so.
> 
> It is good for discussion, but it converts no one because IMO it is not what this forum is for.


I have helped many on line in this way. They have told me. Some have come back to their faith or been strengthened in their faith.
I am glad that the friend who helped me find Jesus Christ didn't worry about me being 'upset' when she told me. It wouldn't bother me at all if someone of another faith talked about it. I would politely say 'no thanks' and that would be that.
This section is about faith and religion. If we cant talk about here, then why not?


----------



## Diana7

Bibi1031 said:


> Thank you for your response. So you were sent the message via a friend, not a stranger knocking at your door or preaching at you. If you want to show someone the way to your God, invite them to your place of worship and let them decide if that is where they belong or if God needs to keep knocking on their heart. He will always do what man can't @Diana7!
> 
> Your friend doesn't own your converting to Christianity, the Holy Spirit does. We do everything for his glory, we are just vessels he uses to spread the good news. All glory is and always will be to God.


 No I wasn't sent the message, she told me about the message. God used her to tell me, as he used millions others. I never mentioned knocking on peoples doors. There are so many more ways of reaching people than in church. Jesus sent the disciples out.


----------



## jld

*Deidre* said:


> My fiance for example is rather moderate in his beliefs. He doesn't like attending church, and I wonder sometimes, how this might impact things when we have kids someday. I'm not super religious, but I'd like to raise our kids with our core beliefs. He doesn't see it as that important, but I don't want him to just follow along with me, if his heart's not there. So, this is something we probably should figure out.


This could be the subject of an interesting thread, Deidre.


----------



## Bibi1031

Diana7 said:


> No I wasn't sent the message, she told me about the message. God used her to tell me, as he used millions others. I never mentioned knocking on peoples doors. There are so many more ways of reaching people than in church. *Jesus sent the disciples out.*


Yes he did, but we are not in the times where the disciples were now are we? You are arguing semantics Diana7, the message was sent/given via your friend who got the message from someone else and so on and so forth. Ultimately the message was heard is the bottom line. Well, ultimately the message will be heard by everyone as well too. Some will choose to believe it and convert and some won't. God will keep knocking like he did with me and so many others until we are ready to accept the good news and convert.

@*Diedre* is right. It is a personal journey regardless of how we got the message. Once the message is delivered, God takes over and begins the personal journey with each and everyone of us that believe in Him.

May that message be delivered and may it convert each and everyone of us at whatever time each and everyone of us is ready to receive it!


----------



## WonkyNinja

Diana7 said:


> Yes we do, we are told to tell others. They can choose to reject it, but we don't want anyone to perish.
> So for example, if the JW's come to our door I will politely say, no thank you, but I respect that they are sincere.


Just because someone tells you to do something doesn't mean that it's right to do it. That was proven in WWII Germany.

Your beliefs are your own beliefs, you cannot expect anyone to respect you and your beliefs when you don't show them the respect of allowing them to have their own.


----------



## Diana7

WonkyNinja said:


> Just because someone tells you to do something doesn't mean that it's right to do it. That was proven in WWII Germany.
> 
> Your beliefs are your own beliefs, you cannot expect anyone to respect you and your beliefs when you don't show them the respect of allowing them to have their own.


If someone tells you to kill someone, you can be sure its wrong. If someone offers you an amazing free gift from an amazing God, that will being only good in you life, it would seem sad to reject it. 
As I said before, I respect the person, but I so want them to be saved. It doesn't worry me if someone respects me or not, its Jesus Christ they need, not me.


----------



## Bibi1031

Diana7 said:


> If someone tells you to kill someone, you can be sure its wrong. If someone offers you an amazing free gift from an amazing God, that will being only good in you life, it would seem sad to reject it.
> As I said before, I respect the person, but I so want them to be saved. It doesn't worry me if someone respects me or not, its Jesus Christ they need, not me.


Beware of fanaticism which is what it looks like to me with some of your posts. Sorry, but that is how I see it. 

God never controls or pushes Himself unto No One! If He would, our free will would not exist. Live by His example and don't control or push an outcome you desire, let others choose on their own free will. 

Your excuse of wanting to save them is just that: an excuse and a very poor one at that. 

God wants to save all too, but he doesn't impose Himself on ANYONE!


----------



## Diana7

Bibi1031 said:


> Beware of fanaticism which is what it looks like to me with some of your posts. Sorry, but that is how I see it.
> 
> God never controls or pushes Himself unto No One! If He would, our free will would not exist. Live by His example and don't control or push an outcome you desire, let others choose on their own free will.
> 
> Your excuse of wanting to save them is just that: an excuse and a very poor one at that.
> 
> God wants to save all too, but he doesn't impose Himself on ANYONE!


Yes I am well aware that we have free will and people are free to reject Him, but they need to know what they are rejecting first. No I am not a fanatic, far from it. I just hate to see people perish because they have rejected Jesus christ. I try and show them Jesus in my life and by the way I live. I pray for them and will carry on praying for them till they or I die. If God gives my husband a word for someone he will give it, and its always been really well accepted. Its also amazing how many people are receptive to being prayed for as well. These are just a few of the many ways we can reach people with the gospel.


----------



## Maricha75

Diana7 said:


> Yes I am well aware that we have free will and people are free to reject Him, but they need to know what they are rejecting first. No I am not a fanatic, far from it. I just hate to see people perish because they have rejected Jesus christ. I try and show them Jesus in my life and by the way I live. I pray for them and will carry on praying for them till they or I die. If God gives my husband a word for someone he will give it, and its always been really well accepted. Its also amazing how many people are receptive to being prayed for as well. These are just a few of the many ways we can reach people with the gospel.


Even now, when some go around, offering Bible studies, I can't even begin to count how many times they have been well received. There have been times that they went up to a house, and the person living there was in such despair tgst tgey were seriously considering suicide. That visit from a stranger stopped it. So, yes, even now, I absolutely believe that going out there is essential. They are free to accept or reject what they hear. But, sometimes, even in the US and other heavily populated areas, door-to-door is the best way to reach out... even when they have internet access.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Bibi1031

Diana7 said:


> Yes I am well aware that we have free will and people are free to reject Him, but they need to know what they are rejecting first. No I am not a fanatic, far from it. I just hate to see people perish because they have rejected Jesus christ. I try and show them Jesus in my life and by the way I live. I pray for them and will carry on praying for them till they or I die. If God gives my husband a word for someone he will give it, and its always been really well accepted. Its also amazing how many people are receptive to being prayed for as well. These are just a few of the many ways we can reach people with the gospel.


I tried. I let it go. You can't see what you can't see right now. So may God take care of it. 

Peace


----------



## WonkyNinja

Diana7 said:


> Yes I am well aware that we have free will and people are free to reject Him,* but they need to know what they are rejecting first.* No I am not a fanatic, far from it. *I just hate to see people perish because they have rejected Jesus christ.* I try and show them Jesus in my life and by the way I live. I pray for them and will carry on praying for them till they or I die. If God gives my husband a word for someone he will give it, and its always been really well accepted. Its also amazing how many people are receptive to being prayed for as well. These are just a few of the many ways we can reach people with the gospel.


But you are talking about mature intelligent adults here. They may very well have looked into religion and rejected it for their own, perfectly valid, reasons. Your attitude is just insulting when YOU take it upon YOURSELF to decided what another person needs to know. 

But it's not even needs to "know", it's needs to have your beliefs put upon them. There are many many people who perish that have not rejected JC as the morgues are not full of atheist car crash and cancer victims.

To my original point. Why should I respect you and your religious beliefs when you do not respect my freedom to have my own beliefs?


----------



## RandomDude

WonkyNinja said:


> But you are talking about mature intelligent adults here. They may very well have looked into religion and rejected it for their own, perfectly valid, reasons. Your attitude is just insulting when YOU take it upon YOURSELF to decided what another person needs to know.
> 
> But it's not even needs to "know", it's needs to have your beliefs put upon them. There are many many people who perish that have not rejected JC as the morgues are not full of atheist car crash and cancer victims.
> 
> To my original point. Why should I respect you and your religious beliefs when you do not respect my freedom to have my own beliefs?


Damn right... in fact, I'm surprised you guys realise this. +1


----------



## Diana7

WonkyNinja said:


> But you are talking about mature intelligent adults here. They may very well have looked into religion and rejected it for their own, perfectly valid, reasons. Your attitude is just insulting when YOU take it upon YOURSELF to decided what another person needs to know.
> 
> But it's not even needs to "know", it's needs to have your beliefs put upon them. There are many many people who perish that have not rejected JC as the morgues are not full of atheist car crash and cancer victims.
> 
> To my original point. Why should I respect you and your religious beliefs when you do not respect my freedom to have my own beliefs?


The christians I know are so glad that they had someone tell them of Jesus Christ. It doesn't worry me if someone rejects the message, that's their choice, but its very sad. You are free not to respect my beliefs. The majority in my country reject them as only 5-6% go to church here, but we will always obey God by praying for people and using opportunities to reach them.


----------



## WonkyNinja

Diana7 said:


> The christians I know are so glad that they had someone tell them of Jesus Christ. It doesn't worry me if someone rejects the message, that's their choice, but its very sad. You are free not to respect my beliefs. The majority in my country reject them as only 5-6% go to church here, but we will always obey God by praying for people and using opportunities to reach them.


You missed my point entirely. I do respect your beliefs as I respect the beliefs of other religions but at the same time I expect you to respect mine. If I come and ask you about Christianity then please feel free to tell me everything but that is a huge difference to pushing your beliefs on someone that didn't ask.


----------



## jld

WonkyNinja said:


> You missed my point entirely. I do respect your beliefs as I respect the beliefs of other religions but at the same time I expect you to respect mine. If I come and ask you about Christianity then please feel free to tell me everything but that is a huge difference to pushing your beliefs on someone that didn't ask.


You can always just put someone on Ignore if you don't like what they have to say.


----------



## WonkyNinja

jld said:


> You can always just put someone on Ignore if you don't like what they have to say.


Not when they come knocking on your door unannounced.


----------



## DTO

EleGirl said:


> It’s one thing to talk about your own faith. But quite another to insult the faith of others. Your statement here about the Catholic Church is untrue and basically ignorant.


Elegirl,

According to the Catholic Church, I was a sinner even while married because:
I had a vasectomy.
I got the occasional HJ from my ex.

This is due to the Catholic principal that all sexual activity must be open to the creation of life.

How is that Biblically supported? My pastoral staff did not agree that was sinful behavior. In fact, I see the Song of Solomon explicity promotes a wide variety of sexual expression.


----------



## Maka

Faith both helped and hurt my relationship. I learned a lot about the bible that I didn't understand. Then I lost my best friend and the love of my life because I didn't agree with him on all of it. Now I'm trying to deal with the pain from that..


----------



## aine

Maka said:


> Faith both helped and hurt my relationship. I learned a lot about the bible that I didn't understand. Then I lost my best friend and the love of my life because I didn't agree with him on all of it. Now I'm trying to deal with the pain from that..


I'm sorry for what you went through. My H and I both became Christians years ago but it hasn't solved our problems and it was never meant to. We are still sinful and flawed.


----------



## Diana7

Maka said:


> Faith both helped and hurt my relationship. I learned a lot about the bible that I didn't understand. Then I lost my best friend and the love of my life because I didn't agree with him on all of it. Now I'm trying to deal with the pain from that..


 Do you mean that he is a christian and you aren't?


----------



## Diana7

aine said:


> I'm sorry for what you went through. My H and I both became Christians years ago but it hasn't solved our problems and it was never meant to. We are still sinful and flawed.


We at least have God to help us and pray to together, and He is very wise.


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## Diana7

DTO said:


> Elegirl,
> 
> According to the Catholic Church, I was a sinner even while married because:
> I had a vasectomy.
> I got the occasional HJ from my ex.
> 
> This is due to the Catholic principal that all sexual activity must be open to the creation of life.
> 
> How is that Biblically supported? My pastoral staff did not agree that was sinful behavior. In fact, I see the Song of Solomon explicity promotes a wide variety of sexual expression.


The RC church has many man-made ideas.


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## Maka

aine said:


> I'm sorry for what you went through. My H and I both became Christians years ago but it hasn't solved our problems and it was never meant to. We are still sinful and flawed.


Thank you


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## Maka

Diana7 said:


> Do you mean that he is a christian and you aren't?


No, I am but I disagree with a certain belief he has. He can't be with me if I don't agree with it. He did love me, he worked very hard trying to help me understand why. I respect and love him for not compromising but I am heart broken. He's a great guy and I did consider going along with it to be with him. But, I know that's wrong it will cause problems for us later in life. I've prayed everyday for over a year about it.

Sorry, I hope this makes sense. I'm not sure if I should post what the difference is or not. Most would think it's extreme and I wouldn't want anyone saying something negative about him.


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## Diana7

Maka said:


> No, I am but I disagree with a certain belief he has. He can't be with me if I don't agree with it. He did love me, he worked very hard trying to help me understand why. I respect and love him for not compromising but I am heart broken. He's a great guy and I did consider going along with it to be with him. But, I know that's wrong it will cause problems for us later in life. I've prayed everyday for over a year about it.
> 
> Sorry, I hope this makes sense. I'm not sure if I should post what the difference is or not. Most would think it's extreme and I wouldn't want anyone saying something negative about him.


Well I have been a christian for 40 years, so I have probably heard many such things, some biblical but many not. Can you say what it is?


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## Maka

Diana7 said:


> Well I have been a christian for 40 years, so I have probably heard many such things, some biblical but many not. Can you say what it is?


We disagree on fellowship laws. Being with him means I would lose my entire family because they are Catholic. If we got married and had children my parents would not be allowed in their lives or mine. :/ The pain this will cause them and me would be unbearable. I would probably end up resenting him after the honeymoon period wore off. That's not fair to anyone.


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## Diana7

Maka said:


> We disagree on fellowship laws. Being with him means I would lose my entire family because they are Catholic. If we got married and had children my parents would not be allowed in their lives or mine. :/ The pain this will cause them and me would be unbearable. I would probably end up resenting him after the honeymoon period wore off. That's not fair to anyone.


Thats not biblical at all, in fact God is for families. Unless he is a JW? I do know a lady whose JW family werent alowed to see her because she wasnt a JW and had married a non JW. Its cruel and unbiblical. I have never heard that in a Christian church, I myself have many non believers in my family.How sad if your family couldn't even see you or their grandhildren. I think you are best away from the group he is in.


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## Maka

Diana7 said:


> Thats not biblical at all, in fact God is for families. Unless he is a JW? I do know a lady whose JW family werent alowed to see her because she wasnt a JW and had married a non JW. Its cruel and unbiblical.


He's not JW. He's a good man, he puts God first and that's what I want. He believes in the NT but he also believes the OT laws still apply. He was strong in his beliefs before he met me that will never change. I respect that, I just really miss him.


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## aine

Maka said:


> We disagree on fellowship laws. Being with him means I would lose my entire family because they are Catholic. If we got married and had children my parents would not be allowed in their lives or mine. :/ The pain this will cause them and me would be unbearable. I would probably end up resenting him after the honeymoon period wore off. That's not fair to anyone.


What version of Christianity is that? Sounds legalistic to me.


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## Diana7

Maka said:


> He's not JW. He's a good man, he puts God first and that's what I want. He believes in the NT but he also believes the OT laws still apply. He was strong in his beliefs before he met me that will never change. I respect that, I just really miss him.


 What church denomination does he belong to? 
The thing is that putting God first doesnt mean that we treat our families terribly. God says that we are to care for our families,especially our parents, so he isnt obeying God at all.


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## Diana7

aine said:


> What version of Christianity is that? Sounds legalistic to me.


Its not what God teaches, so I think it may well be a cult or sect.


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## Maka

Thank you all for your replies. I know his views are unchristian to most but he is a believer and a good person. I'll just leave it at that.


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## Quality

Maka said:


> Thank you all for your replies. I know his views are unchristian to most but he is a believer and a good person. I'll just leave it at that.


The World Christian database carries extensive data on about 9,000 varying Christian denominations and Wikipedia even quotes Christianity Today estimating that there are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations. 

Seems you could find one that would suit both his beliefs and allow you to continue in a realtionship with your parents.

Can you move? I've got a couple we worked with that had already moved out of their home state since they were both raised in conflicting sects of the same umbrella denomination. When they moved here, the umbrella denomination didn't have those same conflicts at all. Problem solved. If his denomination has churches in an area of the county with a lot more Catholics, it's possible they may be a lot more accommodating or tolerant.


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## Diana7

Maka said:


> Thank you all for your replies. I know his views are unchristian to most but he is a believer and a good person. I'll just leave it at that.


What group does he belong to?


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## Maka

Quality said:


> The World Christian database carries extensive data on about 9,000 varying Christian denominations and Wikipedia even quotes Christianity Today estimating that there are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations.
> 
> Seems you could find one that would suit both his beliefs and allow you to continue in a realtionship with your parents.
> 
> Can you move? I've got a couple we worked with that had already moved out of their home state since they were both raised in conflicting sects of the same umbrella denomination. When they moved here, the umbrella denomination didn't have those same conflicts at all. Problem solved. If his denomination has churches in an area of the county with a lot more Catholics, it's possible they may be a lot more accommodating or tolerant.


I could but he won't compromise on the laws.


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## Maka

Diana7 said:


> What group does he belong to?


No specific group, he studies the bible with his family.


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## EleGirl

Maka said:


> No specific group, he studies the bible with his family.


What verses in the Bible does he and his family use to justify that you could not see your family?


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## Yvophi

I would say definitely yes. Before having faith, our marriage was on the brink of divorce. We were invited to go to a couples retreat at my friends church. It changed our life dramatically and almost seemed over night. They recommended this book that covered every single topic that we pretty much were going through and it was eye opening. We decided to trust God's design for marriage now and we are starting a new chapter in our life together. If anyone is interested in a book that will change your marriage I recommend getting it. It's called Us Against the World: How God's love conquers all. 

https://www.amazon.com/Us-Against-W...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=1937741397


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## RandomDude

Quite frankly Christianity was one of the major issues in my past marriage due to the intolerance of ex-wife's beliefs and she refused to adopt the beliefs of a much more accepting denomination as she thought of those as "corrupted" which was rather judgemental coming from someone like her... if you knew her past.

At the same time it ironically brought us together as we met in church... meh, lifes fking weird


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