# All is not coming up roses



## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

Hey, just to catch you guys up to where I've been over the past few months. 

While I wouldn't say that I've completely manned up, I come quite a way since my wife started making noise about a divorce last December. She had a very brief emotional affair that lasted maybe a month before I shut it down. That all ended in March and we went around the bush for maybe two months with therapy and lots of talking and me starting my manning up journey. In early May she decided with the help of her therapist to stick it out with me, at first she said six months and later there's been no talk of an endpoint, just living life together with the kids.

Starting in May we fumbled around with sex and then it got more frequent and we were doing it like 5-6 times a week and getting better at it. I figured we'd had more sex in the last 5 months than the first 10 years of marriage! We were more connected on an emotional level, we were spending lots of great time going out, seeing concerts, doing fun things, etc, etc. They kids have responded quite nicely to all the positive changes and affection mommy and daddy are showing each other. Things have been pretty calm around here, but high energy. Lots of positive emotional tension as Dr. Glover says. She sexted me naked pictures of herself when I was away for a few days!

I wouldn't say that it's all been super great. We have had a couple of issues, mainly her raising some issue or another and me not responding to her emotions. Things would get back on track fairly quickly and then we'd start having great sex again and lots of light bantering and joking...

I am still working on my business and things have been OK, not great but now that the kids are back in school I'm really diving into it. She went back to work at a high paying job at a high tech company that you've all heard of. She really happy back at work.

Soooo... this week things have been a little rocky, probably the worst since we "reconciled" last May. She had a complete meltdown yesterday about sex and her emotional needs not being met. A couple of nights ago she said she has come to realize that she needs a lot of positive emotional attention, which I thought I had ben supplying. She said that work has been helping her out with need to have a dopamine fix. I sat and listened. The old me would've jumped in cut her off, defended myself, etc, etc but the next day she said thanks for just listening to me. Points for me! Then yesterday, she drove up the driveway and the neighbors have put in like $100k in new landscaping and it looks great and she just went bonkers. She came in the house and just started into me and I just told her to knock it off. She starts telling me she has been drinking to have sex with me, there is no emotional connection, she doesn't know if she want stay with me or not. This went on and off for a while and finally I told her to go to bed around 10pm last night because I wasn't listening to her BS.

This morning she is in a crappy mood still, which is rare, because she usually perks up the next day after a blow up like that. She keeps dredging up the past saying she can't get over the past 15 years the way I treated her. She said I haven't kept up my end of the bargain all these years. I said I'm not talking about the past anymore. That is done and dead, I'm moving on and she can be with me or not. She said she has three choices. Leave, Stay and be angry all the time, stay and drink. I said those are hardly choices. How about Stay and work things out?!?! She didn't like that option... She said she tried that and it's not working... Then she took off for work...

My thoughts. I am missing something here. After four relatively carefree months, this kinda came out of the blue. She could be just having a "bad hair day" but this seems a little too drawn out for that type of thing. She can get angry at me all she wants, but unless she is willing to discuss what is really bugging her we'll never get to the bottom of it. It's not the past that's bugging her, it's some need that I'm not meeting. Or all of this is some super sh!t test...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MNG,

She's a material girl.

I know she's done some, but she really needs some additional individual counseling.

Neighbors putting in landscaping shouldn't provoke that sort of over-the-top outburst.

It's likely the "last straw" as she isn't living the lifestyle she desires. So, she needs to figure out what's really important to her.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Could be a **** test, could be some new EA firing up at work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

So ...

If you have been doing what you need to do for yourself ... the next time she pulls this "I don't think ..." sh!t, you should come down on it like a freight train.

Give her what she wants instead of advocating to someone who just changes it up on you every 3-4 months. You ready to do that, or does she still believe you will want to save the marriage at any cost?

Instead of trying to continue to sell her on the idea of fixing it, which you have done for nearly a year, you need to start thinking about fulfilling her wish of destroying it ... and all the pain that will bring. At which point, the last thing on her mind will be 'Keeping up with Jones' landscaping.

You say the business is doing 'ok'. What does that mean exactly? Who is the breadwinner?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MNG I think your wife doesn’t like what she sees in front of her, the next 10 or 20 years. Much like a man in MLC. She has the traditional man’s problem even though she’s female. At times a man’s life is truly sh!te.

Think what the money providing man wants at her time of life. Mainly it’s appreciation and affection.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MNG,

This is a plan to "help her" understand what's important to her.



Deejo said:


> So ...
> 
> If you have been doing what you need to do for yourself ... the next time she pulls this "I don't think ..." sh!t, you should come down on it like a freight train.
> 
> ...


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

I know I'm in the small minority here. But, this bs is exactly why I'm not having sex with my wife until our crap from our 12 year marriage is built back up from the foundation. Both individuals have to find their identity and like who they are and accept their reality. It takes time to work through everything and develop true trust in each other. You both need IC and mentorship in the worst way. Feelings come and go. They are fickle. It takes time to redo a foundation when there is past pain to deal with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> I know I'm in the small minority here. But, this bs is exactly why I'm not having sex with my wife until our crap from our 12 year marriage is built back up from the foundation. Both individuals have to find their identity and like who they are and accept their reality. It takes time to work through everything and develop true trust in each other. You both need IC and mentorship in the worst way. Feelings come and go. They are fickle. It takes time to redo a foundation when there is past pain to deal with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

Sounds a bit MLC to me with some replay going on. Of course i could be wrong.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> I know I'm in the small minority here. But, this bs is exactly why I'm not having sex with my wife until our crap from our 12 year marriage is built back up from the foundation. Both individuals have to find their identity and like who they are and accept their reality. It takes time to work through everything and develop true trust in each other. You both need IC and mentorship in the worst way. Feelings come and go. They are fickle. It takes time to redo a foundation when there is past pain to deal with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Past pain, resentment, sure does kill love. Resentment is hatred and passive anger. Once the husband who’s being resented wakes up to the fact that they are being persecuted and punished over and over again for an offence or offences from years perhaps decades ago and that their wife truly hates them and is loaded with passive anger towards them well, that’s when they become the persecutor, give up and end the marriage.

You cannot get true love, a deep and abiding love, a growing and maturing love, an understanding love out of a spouse who hates you and who is passively aggressive against you NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. You may just as well try and get blood out of a rock.

Pick up a rock and look at it in your hands. Now think on and imagine what you’d need to do to get blood (love) out of it. What techniques and processes would you need to apply? How much money will you need to spend? How many billions of billions of dollars? And how long would it take? Until the end of the world? Do you think you’d ever get one single red blood cell out of the rock? It’s the same as trying to get love out of a woman who resents you. It ain’t never going to happen.

But that rock in your hands has potential energy (passive anger) in it. A woman with passive anger wants to hurt you. That’s what she wants to do. She will sit down and think on ways to hurt you, typically by withholding what ever it is you want from her but if an opportunity to hurt you comes up she will be glad of it and will use it. Now imagine dropping that rock in your hands on your feet. It will hurt you (it’s a big rock!). So by staying with a woman who has resentment against you, you are indeed hurting yourself.

So. Your wife is that rock. You can neither get love/blood out of it and it will deliberately hurt you.

The only way your wife will be capable of giving you the love she gave you in the past and for that love to grow is for her to forgive you your offences against her. Try asking her what it is that she is holding onto from the past and why she hasn’t forgiven you for those things. You could also try asking her to forgive you (most likely in the same way you have forgiven her) but be prepared to be hurt.

And just to end on a really happy note think on that rock again. You can’t get love out of it and it wants to hurt you while you are holding onto it. But you are loving that rock and giving it things!


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Of course she's a material needs woman. Hence the EA with a man loaded with money.

MNG, there are usually lots of displays of men with cash at a successful high tech firm. Wearing nice suits and driving nice cars. Alternatively, there will be lots of women with high paying positions with coach purses and lots of bling.

She probably sees this every day and it's driving her crazy.

Deejo has it right. 

And also, where will she be and how will she feel when YOU are at that place from your business when you can dole out 100 k in pocket change for landscaping? She's going to wish she stuck around for the journey. Instead of fighting you she should be helping you in mutual success.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

And welcome back. I missed your posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Past pain, resentment, sure does kill love. Resentment is hatred and passive anger. Once the husband who’s being resented wakes up to the fact that they are being persecuted and punished over and over again for an offence or offences from years perhaps decades ago and that their wife truly hates them and is loaded with passive anger towards them well, that’s when they become the persecutor, give up and end the marriage.
> 
> You cannot get true love, a deep and abiding love, a growing and maturing love, an understanding love out of a spouse who hates you and who is passively aggressive against you NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. You may just as well try and get blood out of a rock.
> 
> ...


This is very true. Also, you cannot bridge the path to forgiveness for her. She is only hurting herself by not forgiving. She is placing bitterness in her own heart and making herself a prisoner to it. I know. I've seen it in mine the past year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MNG your wife says it’s the past and you say it isn’t? Look. If she’s resentful about the past, SHE’S TELLING YOU SHE IS, there is no way she will open her heart to you. It just wont happen.

For some reason unknown to me some people hang onto grudges from the past. I think they repeat these grudges in their head every single day and doing that KEEPS THE GRUDGES ALIVE AND KICKING! Even from years and decades ago. That’s the only reason I can think of that this type of person can trot something out from 15 years ago IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE.

And then I think what happens is the resentful person cannot imagine living their life WITHOUT THEIR GRUDGES! They just can’t imagine what such a life would be like. Plus, and I think this is the really sad part in a marriage, if they didn’t have those grudges THEY HAVE NO REASONS TO HURT YOU, TO CAUSE YOU PAIN!

I reckon your W doesn’t like her past and doesn’t like what her future looks like. Seriously. The only way your wife will get rid of her past resentments is TO FORGIVE YOU. That is the only way. Until, IF EVER, she forgives you she will forever persecute and punish you for things from the past. My W’s brother was a mass murderer. After a while when things had settled down a bit some of the relatives involved wrote my W’s family a LETTER OF FORGIVENESS. Even that didn’t get my W or her family to have an epiphany moment about forgiveness!


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

Deejo said:


> So ...
> 
> If you have been doing what you need to do for yourself ... the next time she pulls this "I don't think ..." sh!t, you should come down on it like a freight train.
> 
> ...


Part of me feels suckered into this for the past five months. She really turned it on. The affection, the sex, everything you are supposed to have in a marriage. I was going to drop my therapy sessions because I was running out of stuff to talk about... Oh well... I have to tell you guys that my anxiety levels have gone way down around this and I'm not taking her **** this time around.

Back to the story... She had the day off yesterday and we went downtown to a nice restaurant and had lunch. It degraded into a discussion about how she isn't attracted to me. Never has been and probably never will be. I asked if the past five months were an act and was she having fun? She said No and Yes. I said if you really aren't attracted to me why stick around? As Deejo suggested, I went right to the heart of it and told her she needs to move out. That didn't go over well. Not happy about that. We kind of muddle our way through the day and a couple of times she self doubted herself and said she was going to forget it all and go on with her life. I told her if she really wasn't attracted to me, I need to know soonest so I can get on with my life and find a woman that is. (Really, I'm just pushing her buttons, not waiting for her to make a decision) Went to a friends house and for dinner and it was like we never had the discussion... So in the past few months, we'd come home and have sex like rabbits, but she firmly told me NO. I went to sleep. Woke up this morning and she start talking again about how she isn't attracted to me. (She has read all of Athol's stuff and a tone of Dr. Glover stuff and really likes it) I said fine, if it's something you can't work out with me, you need to move out. Here we go again, like a broken record... She can't move away from the kids... At this point she has said "I need space", "you are smothering me" all code for "I'm interested in someone else" and I told her that. I said if you are going to start another affair up you need to move out! I go out and fix a cup of coffee and surf the internet. Then she comes out in tears and said that she is not having an affair. There is no one else. It's exactly as AO said, she is seeing guys at work and is attracted to them like she has never been attracted to me before! She doesn't want to move out and she wants to figure out her feelings and see if she can work them out. I said, get your ass back in therapy this week and figure this sh!t, I'm not going through this again!!! She left to go workout... sobbing...

She has two choices: Stay with me and get over her "attraction" to other men or leave and sow her wild oats!

I think with my wife and the therapist has said this, she tends to over analyze things. I think she is doing this now. Hell we all see people every day we are attracted to but we don't pursue them. Obviously, something is amiss in our marriage that I don't know if we can fix. Because you are right, every 3-4 months this is going to bubble up again... I'm going to work on this with her for a few weeks and see if we make progress, but I'm not waiting around this time like last time. I don't know if I can be Alpha enough at this point. 

She is the breadwinner, but had discussed this endlessly a few weeks ago and I thought it was settled that I was going to give my business about six more months to crank out some money or I was going back to high tech (I have a computer science degree) and get a real job again...


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> And welcome back. I missed your posts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, the sex was good and I had a very actively engaged wife and now we are back to square 1 again. It's enough to make you pull your hair out! This time will be different and as Deejo said, I am going to give her what she wants this time... on my terms...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MNG, Bob, etc.,

This is it in a nutshell.

She did a terrible thing to her kids and to MNG.

Now, she has 2 choices:

1) She can take responsibility for the fact that she is capable of reprehensible, callous, despicable behavior that could potentially destroy her family OR

2) She can convince herself and the world around her that MNG really really sucks.

If she's able to accomplish #2, she can move on without guilt.

MNG - don't let her.

If she does decide to leave, she must take responsibility for the selfish dirtbag that she has become.'




AFEH said:


> MNG your wife says it’s the past and you say it isn’t? Look. If she’s resentful about the past, SHE’S TELLING YOU SHE IS, there is no way she will open her heart to you. It just wont happen.
> 
> For some reason unknown to me some people hang onto grudges from the past. I think they repeat these grudges in their head every single day and doing that KEEPS THE GRUDGES ALIVE AND KICKING! Even from years and decades ago. That’s the only reason I can think of that this type of person can trot something out from 15 years ago IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE.
> 
> ...


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Great job challenging her right back on the being attracted zingers. The old MNG would have taken that blow and tried to accommodate her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

Conrad said:


> MNG, Bob, etc.,
> 
> This is it in a nutshell.
> 
> ...


I reminded her this morning that if she is really not that attracted to me she is the one that has to leave. Leave her kids, leave her house, the whole shooting match... That really got to her and she told me not to hold that over her head because it makes her feel like I'm holding her hostage. I said I'm just giving you the facts... Like I said months ago, I don't think she has it in her to leave, but I've got to get to the bottom of this "I'm not attracted to you" BS... how could we go from totally connected, having sex every day to this in a matter of a day or two. I'm just really pissed at her for pulling this BS...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I like how you're putting your foot down.

She is letting you know that money is where her heart is. You said you are giving your business 6 more months.

What's the gap between what you "could" earn otherwise and what your business is producing now?




MisterNiceGuy said:


> I reminded her this morning that if she is really not that attracted to me she is the one that has to leave. Leave her kids, leave her house, the whole shooting match... That really got to her and she told me not to hold that over her head because it makes her feel like I'm holding her hostage. I said I'm just giving you the facts... Like I said months ago, I don't think she has it in her to leave, but I've got to get to the bottom of this "I'm not attracted to you" BS... how could we go from totally connected, having sex every day to this in a matter of a day or two. I'm just really pissed at her for pulling this BS...


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

Oh about $100k a year, but that is the near term. Long term my business could earn a ton more money... Women are security seeking creatures and I feel that my working from home and not earning as much as her for the interim is putting me in a less than superior position in the family. I have a plan, I'm sticking to it and in six months I'm making a decision.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

That's not chump change.

It would buy some landscaping.

Does she share your optimism about your business?





MisterNiceGuy said:


> Oh about $100k a year, but that is the near term. Long term my business could earn a ton more money... Women are security seeking creatures and I feel that my working from home and not earning as much as her for the interim is putting me in a less than superior position in the family. I have a plan, I'm sticking to it and in six months I'm making a decision.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

A girl with material needs to fill her love bank is not a wrong thing. It's what she needs and wants. 

It's how she's going about it that is wrong. 

1000 to 1 odds is that as soon as you dole in that money, she will "fall into hopeless" love with you. Ie. Attraction central.

Unfortunately, I feel that because it's not there yet, combined with her age, she is trying to find the "easy" way to get her needs met. Ie....potential affair with high paying senior manager or executive.

Just my take on this.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I reminded her this morning that if she is really not that attracted to me she is the one that has to leave. Leave her kids, leave her house, the whole shooting match... That really got to her and she told me not to hold that over her head because it makes her feel like I'm holding her hostage. I said I'm just giving you the facts... Like I said months ago, I don't think she has it in her to leave, but I've got to get to the bottom of this "I'm not attracted to you" BS... how could we go from totally connected, having sex every day to this in a matter of a day or two. I'm just really pissed at her for pulling this BS...


Just courious are you checking to see if she is already beginning an EA. It sure sounds like she has. I mean she says she has never been attracted to you. That pretty much has to be a lie. She married you, had kids with you etc. If she is telling the truth it would be even worse than if she really is lying. 

Plus, this all comes up almost over night. Serious misstep. I would be going over her life with a fine tooth comb. Catch it early.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

This is exactly why it is often said,... "Affairs gets messy!" 

~sammy


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

After our little battle, she soften up a bit yesterday. We took the kids to the fair and then left them with a babysitter and when out to a concert. We had a great time. I put some Alpha moves on her when we got home and it culminated in some great sex... go figure... :scratchhead: 

We talk more about our situation and she was a more clear on what was bugging her. First of all, it's only been five months since we are in the "new normal" of our relationship. She said she wants a guy that is bold and won't put up with her sh!t. That will stand up to her feminine energy... I think I did a pretty good job of it this time around. She was all over me last night, she said I been acting as the alpha male in the family and not putting up with her crap. As Athol says, it got her panties wet and she wanted sex with me! I'm telling you this Alpha/Beta stuff is real. It works! Jeez, I really wish someone had sat me down about 20 years ago and I would've avoided all this BS and had a more satisfying life...

BTW, she does share my optimism about my business. We've had some really good news this past week that should really boost sales. Lots of press about it. Makes me look really good and all Alpha. If it pans out, things should be moving better in a few months. If not, it's back to cubicle world... but a steady paycheck also gets women all hot and bothered sometimes....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MNG,

What was her childhood like?


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

Her mother was in control and ran the family. Her father is very smart with multiple degrees including a phd in physics, but passive/aggressive and withdrawn. I wouldn't say he was a typical nice guy, but he has let her mother run the show. Her father didn't care about her and her mother was the man of the house so my wife tends to have a more masculine drive than many women, but she'll freely admit that she loves me setting the tone and taking the lead. Both her parents worked but her mother was a teacher so she was around all the time. Her father couldn't handle her when she started to go through the teenage years and hardly dealt with her. Her parents are still together after about 50 years of marriage and are unhappy to say the least...


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Just courious are you checking to see if she is already beginning an EA. It sure sounds like she has. I mean she says she has never been attracted to you. That pretty much has to be a lie. She married you, had kids with you etc. If she is telling the truth it would be even worse than if she really is lying.
> 
> Plus, this all comes up almost over night. Serious misstep. I would be going over her life with a fine tooth comb. Catch it early.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Someting stinketh in the state of Denmark.....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

So, she thought a "matriarchal" marriage was "normal." And, it makes her miserable.

Does she realize this?



MisterNiceGuy said:


> Her mother was in control and ran the family. Her father is very smart with multiple degrees including a phd in physics, but passive/aggressive and withdrawn. I wouldn't say he was a typical nice guy, but he has let her mother run the show. Her father didn't care about her and her mother was the man of the house so my wife tends to have a more masculine drive than many women, but she'll freely admit that she loves me setting the tone and taking the lead. Both her parents worked but her mother was a teacher so she was around all the time. Her father couldn't handle her when she started to go through the teenage years and hardly dealt with her. Her parents are still together after about 50 years of marriage and are unhappy to say the least...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Conrad,
She DOES realize this. For YEARS She has asked, begged, pleaded, threatened, cried, insulted and attacked MNNNNNNNNNNNNNG for not stepping up. 

Every time he DOES step up she rewards him. And he then slowly reverts back to his resting state of 100 percent beta. And she gradually gets more and more edgy and aggressive AND unhappy. 

MNG,
You need to accept a few things. 
1. You are never going to be COMFORTABLE giving her the 10 percent alpha she needs
2. That is perfectly ok. You don't need to be comfortable. You simply need to DO IT
3. The more you do it, the more you will realize that her responses are consistently and powerfully positive. And this will be what keeps you sane. The knowledge that it works. 

Or you can stay inside your beta comfort zone and watch your marriage slowly fall back apart. But this really won't be on your W. This will be on you. 




Conrad said:


> So, she thought a "matriarchal" marriage was "normal." And, it makes her miserable.
> 
> Does she realize this?


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