# How do you learn not to "fight ugly"?



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I believe it's normal and in theory healthy for married couples to argue or fight on occasion. But my wife and I sometimes have really ugly fights -- the kind where we each get absolutely brilliant with coming up with the most hurtful and ****ed up things to say to each other. We both wind up wounded after and it's hard to make up, even though our marriage eventually gets back to being good again, and I'd mostly say it's pretty good. I don't know why we do it except that we both seem to get angry from a very deep place. And of course the hurtful things we say to each other fuels this. 

I've heard of the idea of "rules for fighting." Does anyone have any tips on how to learn this? Is there a good book?


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

I think it's all about respect. My parents threw every insult and name calling. My husband has never called me anything ugly (to my face, or that I know of ) and neither have I. Even during the roughest times we always maintain that level of respect. It's not easy but, it's easier to bounce back to normal mode this way. Plus there are no lingering resentments.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Sometimes in retrospect I laugh a little about the creative insults I've come up with, maybe I'm just a cold, mean bastard. Or a dude with a lot of built up anger. Probably more the latter. I don't think I ever thought I had it in me before my relationship with my wife -- she's much more the fiery type than I am. I think I felt like I had to learn to "fight back" but I'm like the bullied kid who fights back too dirty out of insecurity and inexperience. Actually that's kind of what I was like when I was a kid, so makes sense.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

It makes sense, it took me a while to get used to not being defensive
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

My parents had huge ugly fights while I was growing up, it really did a number on me. I had several years of therapy to get over it and learn how to resolve differences. I went the opposite way as you, so adverse to conflict I let people walk all over me rather than voice any disagreement. Neither strategy is very helpful. Have you tried reading any books about fighting fair?


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## Yolandi (Oct 27, 2013)

I think age mellowed us out. Also, the relationship got older and less, well hmmm, I can't think of the word right now. lol.

The big thing is that we both stopped trying to be the right one all the time. Easier said then done, but at a certain point, you can look back and remember some really ugly things that happened after a fight, but you can't even remember what the fight was about anyway.


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## jay1365 (May 22, 2013)

One of the partners must be strong enough to say "I will not continue this discussion until you can lower your voice", and walk away.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

John Lee said:


> I believe it's normal and in theory healthy for married couples to argue or fight on occasion. But my wife and I sometimes have really ugly fights -- the kind where we each get absolutely brilliant with coming up with the most hurtful and ****ed up things to say to each other. We both wind up wounded after and it's hard to make up, even though our marriage eventually gets back to being good again, and I'd mostly say it's pretty good. I don't know why we do it except that we both seem to get angry from a very deep place. And of course the hurtful things we say to each other fuels this.
> 
> I've heard of the idea of "rules for fighting." Does anyone have any tips on how to learn this? Is there a good book?



These two simple rules won't solve everything, but they can help a lot:

1. Don't use the words "always" or "never". During an argument, it's very common for someone to say: "You always do XYZ", or "You never show me any respect", etc... These expressions are seldom true and only escalate the argument.

2. Stay on topic. If you are arguing over buying a car, then argue about the car. Don't bring up other issues from past fights, otherwise the argument will never end.


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## machaladoz (Nov 2, 2013)

it's easier to bounce back to normal mode this way. Plus there are no lingering resentments.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Ditto the respect comment. That's exactly what it's about.

I grew up listening to my parents yell, curse and scream at each other. The insults were relentless and cruel. I swore I would never speak like that to my spouse. And to this day, I never have.

My brother lived with me for a time a few years back and even he was amazed at how I "fight fair" (he's been with some doozie women, lol). I stick to the point, I don't yell and I never resort to name-calling...I also stick to the current issue, not bring up every wrong that's been done in a lifetime, lol (not always easy).

Words are like toothpaste - once they're out, they can't get back in.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I guess I'm the opposite of some of the other posters. I had parents who only fought fair. I've never heard them even say "shut up" to each other. So to me that seemed like the normal way of communicating. That makes me perhaps even hypersensitive to people who rant and rave when they get angry. 

One of my favorite quotes is "Be careful with words. Once they are said, they can only be forgiven not forgotten."


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## HangingOnHope (Oct 26, 2013)

John Lee, are you sure you both really want to change this dynamic?

It will definitely take a commitment from both of you. You make your own rules..and while it might sound funny, you may have to have a few "practice sessions". 

A few suggestions:

Practice using "I" statements. Instead of starting any sentence with "..you", start with I. I feel, I think ,I need, I want, I hear, I heard, etc..rather than "you do, you do not, you won't, etc"

Practice asking for what it is you really want or need. example would be ..instead of saying "you are spending too much money"...try saying "I'd like us to stick closer to our budget" or "I need more help from you in sticking to our budget". 

Practice repeating back to your partner what you believe you heard them saying. "Name, what I think I hear you saying is...". Your partner then gets an opportunity to either affirm or clarify.

If you haven't set goals as a couple, do so first. Both short and long term goals. Those can then be incorporated into your disagreements when they arise..in terms of bringing into focus whether or not the disagreement in question is in line with those goals. ( "we agreed we both want sex 5 times a week and I feel we are starting to slack off..and I want us to get back on track with OUR goals.") Conflict is reduced when you have an "we are in it together" mode of operation. 

Using the word "Name Calling" with the universal 'time out' hand gesture. Sounds silly perhaps..but if one slips into an old habit and name calls, the other agrees they will call them out on it by simply using the Time Out gesture while saying "name calling". If you catch yourself first...apologize for the disrespect (this goes a LONG way) and continue moving forward in discussion. 

If interruption is an issue, as it sometimes can be during heated discussions, you can use a baton of sorts. Its literally just an object that you pass back and forth and only the only holding it can speak. Most of us just want to be heard. Even if we can't agree with each other, its a positive feeling to know we've been listened to and heard. If you can do it with just the commitment to do it and no baton, all the better. But its a helpful visual way to start practicing for some couples. 

...ask yourself if what you're about to say or if what you've just said..is how you'd want a man to speak to your daughter or a woman speak to your son? If the answer is no...change your words or take them back and apologize. 

Couples will sometimes say they can't help it, it just comes out. Yet we all seem to control ourselves in what we say when in front of our boss, or a judge or a cop or our parents or grandparents, etc. You get the idea. In other words, quit giving yourselves permission

Good luck!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jay1365 said:


> One of the partners must be strong enough to say "I will not continue this discussion until you can lower your voice", and walk away.


:iagree:
Always take the higher ground.
Whenever insults start , simply excuse yourself from the 
" discussion."
If she plays the victim role ,simply excuse yourself and calmly state that you are ready and willing to rationally discuss the issue whenever she's in a better state of mind.
Never fight when she's in tears, or when she's livid .

It takes two to tango .


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

The best battles are the ones you avoid. It is ultimately easier to avoid a fight than to extricate yourself from it (or the aftermath) once it occurs. Be sensitive to the reactions and emotions that are building and be willing to be the heavy bag for a few minutes. The heavy bag will take a few punhes but never hits back.. 

Be the adult in the room. If you go toe to toe, you may get a little momentary satisfaction however, you will suffer blowback far far longer if you engage. Can you suspend your pride? You will have to absorb the punishment of your spouse on the front end of this transition but thats the price to make this work and few have the fortitude to do so. Are you one of the few that has the right stuff?

"Words unspoken, you are their master; once spoken, you become their slave." 

Lastly, If wind up in the middle of a fight anyway; the last line of defense is to stay on point. Do not allow it to turn into things from the past or whatever. At that point it totally spins out of control. Now the argument controls you rather than you ccontroling the argument. 

Work on the ability to ppark your emotions momentarly and think your way through the argument giving intelligent vs snarky or smartass retorts. Those accomplish nothing and only serve to move the argument of point and make it all about how much you can hurt the other. 

Good Luck


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## FoodFrenzy (Oct 27, 2013)

There's a lot of good advice here. Having grown up in a household where my parents had some pretty nasty and hurtful fights in front of us as kids (My mom almost-proudly described them as "kick em' down, drag 'em out" fights), I vowed to never fight like that. My husband comes from a family with a verbally-abusive father, and he vowed the same. We actually both over-compensated for a long time and never argued about anything, but that led to pent-up anger and resentment.

I would say over 12 years together (6 married) we have refined the art of arguing, lol. We really don't disagree that often, but when we do, we are able to talk it out. Sometimes it does get a little heated, but I am a fiery person and if I find myself getting to the point where i might say something I regret, I literally remove myself from the room until I have had the opportunity to calm down. I also try to us "I" language, as in "I feel hurt when you say ____," as an example. I have also learned, with time, when to swallow my pride and apologize.


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## FoodFrenzy (Oct 27, 2013)

There's a lot of good advice here. Having grown up in a household where my parents had some pretty nasty and hurtful fights in front of us as kids (My mom almost-proudly described them as "kick em' down, drag 'em out" fights), I vowed to never fight like that. My husband comes from a family with a verbally-abusive father, and he vowed the same. We actually both over-compensated for a long time and never argued about anything, but that led to pent-up anger and resentment.

I would say over 12 years together (6 married) we have refined the art of arguing, lol. We really don't disagree that often, but when we do, we are able to talk it out. Sometimes it does get a little heated, but I am a fiery person and if I find myself getting to the point where i might say something I regret, I literally remove myself from the room until I have had the opportunity to calm down. I also try to us "I" language, as in "I feel hurt when you say ____," as an example. I have also learned, with time, when to swallow my pride and apologize.


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

IMHO disagreements within a marriage are inevitable and I most cases (certainly for me) at least a few of these disagreements will dissolve into arguments.

I know that I have a tendency to "say what I think" which can lead to escalation so I try to be the one to "step back" from a shouting match and ensure a "time out" for both parties to get their emotions in check / thoughts in order.


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## Susieatwork (Oct 25, 2013)

I can tell you, I am with a quickly reformed dirty fighter. Like many other posters, I came from a family where there was a lot of yelling and screaming, and insulting (mostly on my mother's part) and I swore I would never ever live like that. 

My partner and I rarely disagreed, but when we did he would devolve into a six year old - bringing up things from the past not immediately relevant, make jabs, and basically trying to 'fight to win' rather than have a discussion to resolve the issue like adults. I on the other hand, am almost always calm and level-headed and looking for a win-win solution. (Sometimes, I hate that I can't get angry). 

I let him know very early on that I would not put up with it. One day, I printed out an article I found online (can't remember where) about fighting dirty. I highlighted all the dirty strategies that he used in arguments and wrote down examples and I slipped it under his door. I was extremely clear that I would not put up with it and that it was disrespectful. 

He surprised me by being extremely responsive and pledging to do better. 

His arguing skills have improved significantly & if they hadn't, I would be gone. I am still the one who sometimes, has to calmly guide us through an argument. However, I find myself giggling sometimes when he is trying to resolve a disagreement with the new strategies I taught him. 

So perhaps, you can learn from my example - find some resources that highlight what fighting dirty is and discuss them with your wife & see where you want to go from there. 

Every dirty argument is robbing your relationship of trust, and intimacy. It is something you need to resolve for the long term success of your relationship.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

jay1365 said:


> One of the partners must be strong enough to say "I will not continue this discussion until you can lower your voice", and walk away.


This is great advice....for normal people. For BPD and NPD spouses or STBX's is like gasoline on a bonfire. My ex would ramp up the volume and start with the name calling to which I would simply say "I'm done talking which set her off even further". Normal people would see this and stop then let things cool down.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Susieatwork said:


> I can tell you, I am with a quickly reformed dirty fighter. Like many other posters, I came from a family where there was a lot of yelling and screaming, and insulting (mostly on my mother's part) and I swore I would never ever live like that.
> 
> My partner and I rarely disagreed, but when we did he would devolve into a six year old - bringing up things from the past not immediately relevant, make jabs, and basically trying to 'fight to win' rather than have a discussion to resolve the issue like adults. I on the other hand, am almost always calm and level-headed and looking for a win-win solution. (Sometimes, I hate that I can't get angry).
> 
> ...


Agree wholeheartedly. My father was a yeller and my mom just took it as she really could not compete. I have worked long and hard to emotionally and intellectually disipline myself to not fly off the handle for small crap like my father. Thankfully most things just roll off my back and I enjoy discussing options to resolving an issue. I don't mind arguing as long as its includes: 

conflict>expression>solutions>agreement>conclusion>followup


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

jay1365 said:


> One of the partners must be strong enough to say "I will not continue this discussion until you can lower your voice", and walk away.


I tried this way, and though it did work eventually to calm myself down and get her to not go on the offensive, my wife REALLY didn't like it for a long time. Especially the "walking away" part. She was incredibly offended that I would walk away in the middle of an argument.

I prefer the method of taking a time out for yourself, and then keeping your cool when you return. Both methods end in the same results of giving you both space and time to cool off and rethink your arguments., but the second way is less antagonistic.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> I tried this way, and though it did work eventually to calm myself down and get her to not go on the offensive, my wife REALLY didn't like it for a long time. Especially the "walking away" part. She was incredibly offended that I would walk away in the middle of an argument.
> 
> I prefer the method of taking a time out for yourself, and then keeping your cool when you return. Both methods end in the same results of giving you both space and time to cool off and rethink your arguments., but the second way is less antagonistic.


I like this comment. I think there's something subtly insulting and condescending about the other suggestion "I'm the mature one, you're the immature one." Framing it as "I need to cool off" might be a better way to go. TY.


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## Busted Knuckle (Nov 6, 2013)

a lot of good advise so far 

find some fair fighting rules - print them and work with your partner to abide by them it's very tough to do sometimes but in the best interest and health of the marriage it may just work 
we have set posted on our refrigerator for quick reference 

here's an example:
Fair Fighting Rules for Couples


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## perfectstranger (Aug 14, 2010)

I would say I'm an "ugly" fighter at heart. When I was dating, before I met now-husband, any disagreement could go from rational to nuclear, take-no-prisoners, only-in-it-to-win-it in seconds. Completely disproportionate. 
By the time DH and I got around to having any kind of disagreement, (and ours tend to be fairly mild), I was already very respectful of how much he cared about me and I was aware that I cared enough about him to *not *want to throw gasoline on our relationship and swagger out of the flames. So if I didn't think he was leaving, and I wasn't planning on leaving, I made a conscious effort to leave out the nasty. As many have mentioned, I didn't want to say toxic things that could never be unsaid. He has never seen me go that direction and I don't expect he will.
I don't know that there's a way to teach someone else to ramp down the nature? If your spouse is mostly rational and the tone you set is careful and deliberate, maybe s/he falls right in line?
For me, I just had to decide we are fighting for something together, if that makes sense. I can't win unless we both win. Usually we disagree on business decisions or financial issues, so joint success is a big thing. 
And I vividly remember sitting there looking at him once, knowing I had the words for a knockout punch on the tip of my tongue. I made an actual decision not to say them. That was a huge step for me.


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