# What can I do when she won't stop picking a fight?



## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Hello all,

I've just found this forum and the level of discussion seems good, so I want to ask for advice about my situation. I've been with my partner for five years and whilst the relationship has generally been good, in the past we have been been somewhat argumentative. More recently, though, I've realised that being happy is the most important thing and I try hard to admit when I'm wrong, not seek to be "right", and not do things to annoy her. When she's angry, I stay calm. She's noticed this and has herself, unprompted, asked why I'm so much more considerate now. Despite all of this there are lingering problems and I'm stuck (help!):

Specific examples would be tedious, but the crux is that she sometimes goes on the attack and doesn't let up, trying one angle after another, until either she gets a strong reaction, gives up and sulks, or finds some way to punish me (if this is what she feels was needed). She might attack because I did something wrong or, more rarely, because something went wrong independently and she is looking for someone to blame. Often when I'm obviously not to blame she will realise she's being unreasonable and eventually apologises (so long as I stay calm), but if her outburst is sparked by something I've done wrong (knowingly or unknowingly) then she feels the gloves are off and never apologises no matter what she said. There are times when she did something that made me angry then, following only a brief comment from me, she turns the tables on me tenfold. I think this behavior is bad for our relationship because I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I've said this during calm periods and she hasn't disagreed. 

Her anger can be, to my mind, greatly in excess of what the circumstances merited. I say this because she will attack me over both the issue in question and any previous issue from the recent past. Some of these will be valid (but irrelevant to the issue at hand), others are issues that I was previously unaware of, still others appear to me to be bogus straw-clutching or extreme hyperbole (which would be funny in other circumstances). She may go away and think about things then come back with more (often over SMS; to which I generally don't respond). She may say or do things she *knows* will make me angry to get a response (but then later denies doing this). 

I have low trust for our relationship immediately after such an event but my trust returns later on as I put it behind me. I cycle between feeling committed (when things are good) and wanting out (after a bad fight). I don't understand how to make her just hash out the problem at hand so we become stronger and move on. Ideas?


Thanks for reading!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hi, trilobite. It could be BPD. There is info on that on this site, or you could google it. 

Or it could just be her. 

I have to tell you, I have acted this way plenty of times with my dh. The trick, at least the way dh dealt with it, is to remain absolutely calm when she gets emotional. Don't leave the room, either. She will feel safe if you are there. Be the rock during her storm.

And be absolutely truthful with her. Calmly, but firmly tell her the truth if she is exaggerating or just not seeing things fairly. Ignore pouting or unkind words. And later, ask for an apology if she does not give one.

And the most important thing is to be a good example. And it sounds like you are doing that.:smthumbup:

The last post on my thread in the Long Term Success in Marriage talks about how dh would deal with me when I was like this. (Post #94). Different men handle it differently.

Best of luck. She is lucky you are mature and willing to seek a solution to this.

Oh, one more thing: Active Listening. Listen to her and repeat back what she is saying until she is calm and can hear your side of things. If she starts getting upset again, stop saying your side and just listen to her and repeat it all back again. Keep doing this until she gets calm. Active Listening has worked miracles in many relationships.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

trilobite said:


> Specific examples would be tedious,


Actually, in this forum I've noticed that people can be more helpful with very specific examples of a couple arguments you had. When you discuss your problem in generalities, you are only going to get general advice. 



> _I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I've said this during calm periods and she hasn't disagreed._


Another thing I've noticed in this forum is that when you have a partner who picks fights for the slightest of reasons, and you feel like you are "walking on eggshells", those are big red flags for being married to someone with borderline personality disorder. Has she ever been diagnosed with any mental illnesses?

This thread is long, but might be enlightening. 

Another resource:
How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves - Roger Melton, M.A.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Thank you for answering, jld, it really means a lot. Not leaving the room hadn't occurred to me, I'll try. But even if she's exaggerating she rarely apologises later. I'd rather not give examples, because they'd inevitably create a biased view in someone who doesn't know us, but let's just say she's done things that I consider very extreme. In one instance I don't even remember why she did it. Later on there isn't an apology, even when I patiently explain that her behavior is bad for us. I think she sometimes implies an apology through a later action, but her pride usually prevents her from actually saying it. 

She tends to bottle up issues and not talk, then explodes later down the line. It doesn't help that I have a bad memory and forget what it is she doesn't like. We have talked about the bottling up. It's problematic because it means that she gets angry about a valid issue, but it's much more extreme then it needs to be because we haven't talked.

I think mild BPD isn't out of the question: she has large mood swings. If I screw up when she's in a good mood then little happens, but she will dredge up my folly later on if she enters a grumpy period. It's so mild, though, that it hardly seems worth assessing clinically.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I have heard people say that everyone is a little BPD. If you think your wife has a mild case, then I agree she doesn't need a clinical assessment.

Honestly, many women I know, including in my own family, are like this.

I cannot applaud you enough for being willing to be strong for her, to be the mature, calm, and firm leader. Someday she will thank you greatly for this.

I do think, though, that you have to at least tell her you think an apology is the appropriate action when she has treated you disrespectfully. If you treated her disrespectfully, I am sure you would apologize. Point that out. You are not asking for anything you yourself would not be willing to give.

And don't be afraid to say something about pride, either. Even if she doesn't admit it, true words will stay in her mind. Something as mild from you as, "I think you know you should apologize, but you are allowing your pride to prevent that" will make her think a while about it. Eventually, your loving firmness and mature example should pay off.

That whole bottling up thing seems pretty common. And if your wife is anything like me, sometimes things come out that she didn't even realize she was thinking. When she is calm, discuss them with her. Be humble. If she is right, apologize and really make a plan for change. Again, be the example. Eventually, you should be able to ask the same from her.

Do you have a regular time for sitting down and discuss potential problems? That might be good. Otherwise, whenever you see her even slightly irritated, invite her to talk about it. Saying something like, "You seem upset. Is something wrong?" can be helpful. If I am quiet for too long, dh will ask what is in my mind, lol. Just anything to get her talking.

She needs to feel safe to do this, so do your best to remain calm and patient.

And don't forget active listening! Listen and repeat, listen and repeat. It makes people feel listened to and understood. They then feel respected. When they feel these things, they usually become calm and can listen to your side of things.

You are a brave and mature man to take on these responsibilities, trilobite. Your wife is going to be very grateful to you one day.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Well... We talked things through today (after arguing earlier) and things are better. Thanks all!


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

trilobite said:


> I think mild BPD isn't out of the question: she has large mood swings.



Just to clarify - BPD is borderline personality disorder, NOT bi-polar (manic-depressive) disorder, which is more distinctly characterized by wild mood swings. 

Of course, no one here can diagnose her. It's just something to consider. From your detailed description (which it looks like now you have deleted) it certainly looks like she is dealing with some demons of her own and unfairly taking them out on you.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Theseus said:


> Just to clarify - BPD is borderline personality disorder, NOT bi-polar (manic-depressive) disorder, which is more distinctly characterized by wild mood swings.
> 
> Of course, no one here can diagnose her. It's just something to consider. From your detailed description (which it looks like now you have deleted) it certainly looks like she is dealing with some demons of her own and unfairly taking them out on you.


Ah... Thanks for that. I thought it was bipolar. I think she knows she's being unfair, but takes a lot of work an emotional energy to get her to see that.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Did she grow up in a dysfunctional or abusive home?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gomerpyle (Dec 27, 2013)

I had one that would not give up on attempts at provoking me. I would not react, but she would get in my face and even get physical with me, as if she wanted me to hit her, but I refused. When it got that bad I had to leave. A working man has to sleep, and she simply would not stop. Sometimes I slept in the truck. Sometimes I went to a friend's house or a hotel. 

She would later admit that what she was doing was way out of line, but once she got that kind of crazy there was nothing that could stop her. She never did it before we got married. Good riddance.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> I have to tell you, I have acted this way plenty of times with my dh. The trick, at least the way dh dealt with it, is to remain absolutely calm when she gets emotional. Don't leave the room, either. She will feel safe if you are there. Be the rock during her storm.


I have to disagree a bit with this. If she starts to become disrespectful or mean (using hateful words, etc.), you may need to walk. I think calmly telling her that while you are happy to discuss this issue, but will not do so if she is disrespectful. If she continues, you tell her you will talk later and then leave the room. Escalate as necessary, including leaving the house. While I understand being her rock, I don't think that means she gets a free pass to act that way.



> And be absolutely truthful with her. Calmly, but firmly tell her the truth if she is exaggerating or just not seeing things fairly. Ignore pouting or unkind words. And later, ask for an apology if she does not give one.


This is a huge thing. Carefully observe what type of apology you receive. Words alone are not enough. If she uses the words, but is dismissive of the hurt she has caused or continues her poor behavior, you need to be clear that she has not provided a sincere apology. On the other hand, while she might not say she is sorry, her actions may clearly show that she is. Watch carefully.



> Oh, one more thing: Active Listening. Listen to her and repeat back what she is saying until she is calm and can hear your side of things. If she starts getting upset again, stop saying your side and just listen to her and repeat it all back again. Keep doing this until she gets calm. Active Listening has worked miracles in many relationships.


Many people (particularly women based on my observations) just want to be heard. So active listening, where they are allowed to speak and the only questions you can ask are clarifying questions, can be very helpful.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

trilobite said:


> Well... We talked things through today (after arguing earlier) and things are better. Thanks all!


Until the next time, right? 

My son went through a phase as a toddler where he would hit people, then say he was sorry. He then got upset when he was punished for hitting. It became clear that sorry was not about feeling bad but rather was the magic phrase to excuse his behavior and move on without addressing the issue. 

Consider whether that is the case in your relationship with your wife.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I have to disagree a bit with this. If she starts to become disrespectful or mean (using hateful words, etc.), you may need to walk. I think calmly telling her that while you are happy to discuss this issue, but will not do so if she is disrespectful. If she continues, you tell her you will talk later and then leave the room. Escalate as necessary, including leaving the house. While I understand being her rock, I don't think that means she gets a free pass to act that way.


Hi, TAG. If the man cannot handle the emotion, then yes, he needs to leave. If he is going to get angry back, and imitate her behavior, then yes, he needs to leave. It really depends on what the man can handle. And what he can handle depends on how secure he is.

Dh was never fazed by my outbursts. And, believe me, I tried. I screamed out every angry, hurtful thing I could think of. All the anger I felt inside I just hurled at him. But it just bounced off. (I wrote about it over on my thread on the Long Term Success section--last post.)

From reading these forums, I am starting to understand that men cope with these tantrums the best they can. Sometimes leaving is the healthiest thing they can do. But I do think, if at all possible, a man should stay. But the men who are able to do that are probably already doing it.

A woman acting like that needs reassurance and understanding. She is flailing out of control and is desperately looking for a life preserver. She needs someone to hang onto, someone who is in a lot more control of himself than she is of herself, until she can get it together.

But yes, this can only come from a secure man. Only someone with inner security has "enough" within himself to extend compassion and understanding to his wife, to deescalate her anger. He doesn't think about her "disrespect." I don't think dh ever used that word with me, even though I clearly was treating him very disrespectfully.

I think just making it all about her "disrespect" puts the accent on the wrong syllable. A secure man takes charge of the situation, not by escalating and leaving, but by staying and deescalating. And then seeking to understand why it happened in the first place.

Trying to reprimand her is not helping her get herself together. Being calm and patient and staying with her, helping her get back to the person you know and love, that is where the accent needs to be.

Thank God somebody in our marriage was able to be mature at those times.

If you think I am asking too much from men in general, then I would say you are probably right. I would hope that men can become more secure, and help their wives in their insecurity. But I may be too idealistic about this.

I wrote that post on my thread because I think men need to see that it is possible to deal with a wife's temper tantrums in a calm, compassionate way, and that leaving the room is not necessarily a requirement.

Okay, sorry for the rant, but I feel pretty strongly about this. I sometimes hear this advice to leave the room given as though it is essential, and I think that is false. Leave if you have to, but realize it is not ideal, and strive, if possible, to eventually not have to do this.

Things will not get better until the man is secure and can be strong for his wife, and can help her develop her own security. Then things will get better.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Her parents are divorced but it doesn't sound to me as though she had a particularly unhappy childhood considering what happened. She tends to have an outburst for a reason and it's usually (but not always) something I've done. When she realises she's been out of line she seems genuinely sorry. The thing that works best is active listening, as said above, if she's being irrational and I keep her on point then she often realises. It's rooted in insecurity: when angry she often claims I'm "judging" her, when in fact I'm doing nothing of the sort. 

The real issue I have is that this is a recurring problem. She says she doesn't want to behave like this, but she does. In fact we are not married, but marriage is something we're talking about it. The anger cycles are one of the main things that put me off. When things are good, I start thinking that stuff could work between us. When it's not good, I go back to zero. Obviously this is stressful for her and contributes to some of these episodes but not all of them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Stay on that part about figuring out why she keeps doing it. That is where my dh went wrong. When the tantrum was over, I always apologized. That was enough for dh. When it would happen again, a few weeks or months, or a year later, we would repeat the cycle.

The active listening should help. Just get her talking and keep her talking. Try to get really deep, like seeing her cry or be beside herself. Then you're probably onto what is really wrong.

I wish I had better advice for you. I'll keep thinking.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

What you are describing are Angry Outbursts. They are actions that can kill love. I recommend checking out the book Love Busters by Willard Harley, and seeing if she will read it with you. It might help her realize the destructiveness of what she is doing and help her find ways to react differently.

Good luck!




trilobite said:


> Her parents are divorced but it doesn't sound to me as though she had a particularly unhappy childhood considering what happened. She tends to have an outburst for a reason and it's usually (but not always) something I've done. When she realises she's been out of line she seems genuinely sorry. The thing that works best is active listening, as said above, if she's being irrational and I keep her on point then she often realises. It's rooted in insecurity: when angry she often claims I'm "judging" her, when in fact I'm doing nothing of the sort.
> 
> The real issue I have is that this is a recurring problem. She says she doesn't want to behave like this, but she does. In fact we are not married, but marriage is something we're talking about it. The anger cycles are one of the main things that put me off. When things are good, I start thinking that stuff could work between us. When it's not good, I go back to zero. Obviously this is stressful for her and contributes to some of these episodes but not all of them.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

if both of you agree that you want to work on eliminating the angry outbursts, you might try adopting a couple rules for communication...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/154113-arguing.html

basic rules to keep in mind that focus on communicating your point and not assuming you know what the other person thinks/intends/feels.

i adopted them and live by them now. we no longer have any issues telling each other whats on our minds, since its the only way for us to know. 
no more bottling stuff up.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> But yes, this can only come from a secure man. Only someone with inner security has "enough" within himself to extend compassion and understanding to his wife, to deescalate her anger. He doesn't think about her "disrespect." I don't think dh ever used that word with me, even though I clearly was treating him very disrespectfully.


So, she gets a free pass to act in any way she wants, and if he does not stand there and take it, it is because he is insecure and lacks compassion and understanding? 



> I think just making it all about her "disrespect" puts the accent on the wrong syllable. A secure man takes charge of the situation, not by escalating and leaving, but by staying and deescalating. And then seeking to understand why it happened in the first place.


Leaving is not escalating. Leaving is saying he is happy to work with her, but he doesn't deserve to be treated that way. It is say he is a partner in this relationship, not a father to a spoiled child that throws a tantrum.



> Trying to reprimand her is not helping her get herself together. Being calm and patient and staying with her, helping her get back to the person you know and love, that is where the accent needs to be.
> 
> Thank God somebody in our marriage was able to be mature at those times.


Again, how is expecting a woman to act as an adult reprimanding them, or not acting mature?



> If you think I am asking too much from men in general, then I would say you are probably right. I would hope that men can become more secure, and help their wives in their insecurity. But I may be too idealistic about this.


The problem is not asking too much of men, it is asking too little of women. They are adults. That they are allowed free reign to hatefully attack their man and his is demeaned if he refuses to just stand there and take it is beyond my understanding.



> I wrote that post on my thread because I think men need to see that it is possible to deal with a wife's temper tantrums in a calm, compassionate way, and that leaving the room is not necessarily a requirement.
> 
> Okay, sorry for the rant, but I feel pretty strongly about this. I sometimes hear this advice to leave the room given as though it is essential, and I think that is false. Leave if you have to, but realize it is not ideal, and strive, if possible, to eventually not have to do this.


I don't see how being forced to listen to hateful attacks is ideal. I do she how it relieves the wife of any responsibility in the relationship.



> Things will not get better until the man is secure and can be strong for his wife, and can help her develop her own security. Then things will get better.


Sure, as long as she decides to be an adult and work toward that goal. But he is not her father. He is her spouse. She is not a child. She is an adult. Hurting and being out of control are no excuse to lash out. Having the self respect to refuse to be subject to that does not make one less of a man or a person. To imply otherwise is pretty insulting.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

trilobite said:


> The real issue I have is that this is a recurring problem. She says she doesn't want to behave like this, but she does. In fact we are not married, but marriage is something we're talking about it. The anger cycles are one of the main things that put me off. When things are good, I start thinking that stuff could work between us. When it's not good, I go back to zero. Obviously this is stressful for her and contributes to some of these episodes but not all of them.


How often are the anger cycles? One a week, once a month?

Also, consider some IC, perhaps with some specialization in anger management. It may be that the two of you can't do this on your own.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So, she gets a free pass to act in any way she wants, and if he does not stand there and take it, it is because he is insecure and lacks compassion and understanding?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


TAG, you are assuming that both people have the same capabilities here. We do not come into a marriage with equal abilities. We have different strengths in different areas. Sometimes we improve as we get older, but our spouse may always be stronger than we are in some ways.

I don't believe in 50/50 marriages. I think the only marriages that work in the long run are 100/100 ones.

The reality is that we all mother and father our partners at times. I make food that I know dh likes. I hug him and kiss him and give him other non-sexual affection. And when I would have my meltdowns, he would be calm and kind and strong for me.

I know that I am asking a lot of men. I think that women who are having this problem (certainly not all women do) need more than other women, at least in this area. If a man is not going to carry his wife through some of her hard times, at least initially, I don't think the relationship will last.

I mean, do you want to be right, or do you want to solve problems?

I think that walking out on her is just going to shut her down emotionally. It "teaches" her to not expose her feelings, because then he will leave and she will feel abandoned. It does not create trust.

I understand that it is easier to say, "I don't treat her that way. She shouldn't treat me that way. I'm not going to take it." And treat it like it is all some clinical project.

It is a lot harder to say, "I don't understand why she is doing this. But I would like to understand, and I would like to help her. I'm willing to carry her until she can carry herself."

Obviously, it takes a lot of maturity on the part of the man to do this. He can't be selfish. He can't be willing to only do just his part, and no more.

One last thing: Is your story on this site somewhere? Were you with a woman with this problem? Sometimes reading someone's story helps me better understand where they are coming from. Thanks.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

jld said:


> TAG, you are assuming that both people have the same capabilities here. We do not come into a marriage with equal abilities. We have different strengths in different areas. Sometimes we improve as we get older, but our spouse may always be stronger than we are in some ways.


 Agreed; in the best marriages the strengths/weaknesses of each spouse complement the other, and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.



> I don't believe in 50/50 marriages. I think the only marriages that work in the long run are 100/100 ones.


I am not sure what you mean here, in reference to the posts. What part would be 50/50 vs 100/100?



> The reality is that we all mother and father our partners at times. I make food that I know dh likes. I hug him and kiss him and give him other non-sexual affection. And when I would have my meltdowns, he would be calm and kind and strong for me.


I have read in your other posts where you feel your husband has taken a strong father/leader role for you. I think it's cool that you two fit together well and it works excellently for you. For those of us who need less father/mother roles from our spouses...we might see this from a different angle. For example- I don't see me cooking for my DH, or him cooking for me, as mothering, it is just partnership in our lingo. 

Similarly, I could not tolerate the kind of "fathering" you prefer and respect from your DH, it would not work. Your DH being calm and staying in the room when you have your moments seems to make you feel safe. That's cool, and again it is something that really works for you and your DH. 

If I had a similar moment and my husband stuck around for it, I would pretty much lose respect for him, especially if it was repeated. 



> I know that I am asking a lot of men. I think that women who are having this problem (certainly not all women do) need more than other women, at least in this area. If a man is not going to carry his wife through some of her hard times, at least initially, I don't think the relationship will last.
> 
> I mean, do you want to be right, or do you want to solve problems?


You can solve problems without tolerating bad behavior- in fact, you usually solve them much faster and to much greater satisfaction when the bad behavior is removed.



> I think that walking out on her is just going to shut her down emotionally. It "teaches" her to not expose her feelings, because then he will leave and she will feel abandoned. It does not create trust.


One doesn't necessarily walk away for good; the goal usually is to return once it is safe for all parties to communicate together. It is not abandonment to remove yourself from a person who is out of control. 

It doesn't help someone to just let them go out of control; allowing that behavior is just enabling. "Training" someone to communicate safely is a much better goal, IMO, for both the person doing the "training" and the person who needs to learn to control their emotions.

One becomes a safe person to themselves and others when they can openly and honestly express their feelings without losing it. 



> I understand that it is easier to say, "I don't treat her that way. She shouldn't treat me that way. I'm not going to take it." And treat it like it is all some clinical project.
> 
> It is a lot harder to say, "I don't understand why she is doing this. But I would like to understand, and I would like to help her. I'm willing to carry her until she can carry herself."


Being willing to help someone and carry them for a time does not, and should not, include accepting abusive behaviors. 

Maintaining boundaries is not a clinical project- it is the hallmark of a functional adult. 

I am not suggesting that couples don't carry one another at times, but usually it is periods of illness, or job loss, or other life difficulties. I don't believe that saying "It is OK to treat me poorly" as a general, non-situation-specific behavior is helpful to anyone.



> Obviously, it takes a lot of maturity on the part of the man to do this. He can't be selfish. He can't be willing to only do just his part, and no more.


I just want to reiterate again my different belief here. I really don't think that accepting bad behavior is a commendable action, or the mark of an unselfish man, or the badge of a man who is willing to go the distance. It is probably the mark of either someone who avoids conflict, or a Knight In Shining Armor.

I am glad that your husband has helped you so much, and that you feel safe and loved when he has stayed in the room for you. I am glad you posted, too, because I suspect that there are men who would prefer to stay and help their woman out in that way, and I am sure there are other women who also would prefer it. There isn't anything wrong with some KISA tendencies IMO, it works great in many couple dynamics with healthy people.

At the same time, I wanted to post a reply because IMO it is also not a bad thing to keep those boundaries and expect better behavior. You indicated that you did get better; that's important, because Angry Outbursts really are a HUGE love buster. If they continue they can kill relationships, as an Angry Outburst can wipe out a lot of good feelings that the person on the receiving end felt previously, and it also colors the perception of the future, as the person on the receiving end wonders when the next outburst will arrive. It can make a person feel that nothing is good enough for the Angry one. And usually the Angry one has no idea of the damage they are causing. They should be eradicated in a healthy relationship.

Also, the OP especially has a problem where he is NOT married and his GF is NOT getting better. In his case especially I think he should be concerned and is much better served by drawing those boundaries.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> I really don't think that accepting bad behavior is a commendable action, or the mark of an unselfish man, or the badge of a man who is willing to go the distance. It is probably the mark of either someone who avoids conflict, or a Knight In Shining Armor.


Thanks for saying that^^^.
I see that dynamic with a few men here, and sometimes even women, and they justify their actions by thinking it's helping the spouse who behaves badly and the relationship.

Another thing is that people who accept bad behavior in order to avoid conflict in relationships might very well be passive aggressive.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

trilobite said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've just found this forum and the level of discussion seems good, so I want to ask for advice about my situation. I've been with my partner for five years and whilst the relationship has generally been good, in the past we have been been somewhat argumentative. More recently, though, I've realised that being happy is the most important thing and I try hard to admit when I'm wrong, not seek to be "right", and not do things to annoy her. When she's angry, I stay calm. She's noticed this and has herself, unprompted, asked why I'm so much more considerate now. Despite all of this there are lingering problems and I'm stuck (help!):


Sometimes you shouldn't be right when you are RIGHT for sake of the relationship, but you cannot be wrong everytime you are right, there will be "power" issues if you allow that to happen. That's being doormatted and it is not attractive.



trilobite said:


> Specific examples would be tedious, but the crux is that she sometimes goes on the attack and doesn't let up, trying one angle after another, until either she gets a strong reaction, gives up and sulks, or finds some way to punish me (if this is what she feels was needed).


Your right, they won't let up until she can see you affected. So either she will see your spirits deflate, or your face to take on a bright red sheen of someone who has been smacked in the face. They are like SHARKS for getting this out of you.



trilobite said:


> She might attack because I did something wrong or, more rarely, because something went wrong independently and she is looking for someone to blame. Often when I'm obviously not to blame she will realise she's being unreasonable and eventually apologises (so long as I stay calm), but if her outburst is sparked by something I've done wrong (knowingly or unknowingly) then she feels the gloves are off and never apologises no matter what she said.


Sometimes they feel bad and want to make themself feel better. When they are playing the game you describe, it's almost like free money. Imagine if you will that this progresses to a stage where you did NOTHING wrong but being there, and wife wants to take some meat or energy out of you, and she does all these matrix moves until she gets it. Been there. It's an addiction. They get an instant dopamine hit when they do it, similar to landing a strong solid body blow or shot to the temple, which rocks the opponent. It raises the hitters feelings of well-being and strength.



trilobite said:


> There are times when she did something that made me angry then, following only a brief comment from me, she turns the tables on me tenfold. I think this behavior is bad for our relationship because I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I've said this during calm periods and she hasn't disagreed.


Not a good place to be. Long periods of time walking on egg shells will raise your stress levels and can cause problems with your nerves. These can manifest into health and physical problems. To FLIP walking on egg-shells you have to literally not CARE what she thinks or does. Then she won't affect you.



trilobite said:


> Her anger can be, to my mind, greatly in excess of what the circumstances merited. I say this because she will attack me over both the issue in question and any previous issue from the recent past. Some of these will be valid (but irrelevant to the issue at hand), others are issues that I was previously unaware of, still others appear to me to be bogus straw-clutching or extreme hyperbole (which would be funny in other circumstances). She may go away and think about things then come back with more (often over SMS; to which I generally don't respond). She may say or do things she *knows* will make me angry to get a response (but then later denies doing this).


Oh boy, you better believe it. It's a dopamine seeking MACHINE. I've been on the recieving end of it, and you cannot be in the space with that person. It's not healthy. Sometimes they don't even realize the levels that they go to do this, as it's ingrained in their subconscious actions! And for a level situation in their mind, is you being affected like this. Her being empowered, and you being affected strongly is the balance! Her mind will maintain that balance.



trilobite said:


> I have low trust for our relationship immediately after such an event but my trust returns later on as I put it behind me. I cycle between feeling committed (when things are good) and wanting out (after a bad fight). I don't understand how to make her just hash out the problem at hand so we become stronger and move on. Ideas?
> 
> 
> Thanks for reading!


Haha. After going through someone who powerballed me like that, and I didn't know as they got tastes of it, that they become stronger in it! Kinda like getting sex after being a virgin or years of not getting it. The taste and thirst for it grows and you do what you have to do and say to get it!

I'm going to say from how I know how the world works. To come out of your position is not going to be easy at all. And you will not supplicate her to do it, you will not satisfy and endless laundry list of demands, you will not MAP yourself into the perfect sexual and masculine male ( not in her mind at least, but you might as well ), you will not talk her into stopping.

For someone to STOP they literally have to run into a tramatic section of life, so you could leave.

She won't change right away, but after dating several guys who aren't going to put up with it, she might let it go. Or she may even get stronger in it. You never know.

Just be aware you aren't the only one.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

I think we just described the prototypical "Bridezilla".


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rose, have you had temper tantrums with your spouse? 

I think this is important. It does not mean we cannot still disagree on how these things can be handled. What works for one woman in this situation may not be what works for another. 

Please keep in mind that everything I write applies to my own experience with dh. I write this in case it could be helpful to another couple, knowing that probably few would choose this path.

Dh just told me this, "Temper tantrums happen when someone is not listening."

(And thank you for your kind words about my dh. He truly has been my Knight in Shining Armor, although I am guessing by the way you say that that there is a meaning here I am not familiar with.)

What you and TAG are saying seems to be the standard advice regarding a wife's temper tantrums. That is why I felt the need to post about it on my thread, and to bring it up here. I think that if a man is able to do what my dh has done, it can heal a lot of hurt in the woman's heart. And when her heart is healing, her behavior will improve.

Dh chose not to take a distancing approach (leaving the room). And I do think to me it would have felt like abandonment. He chose instead to take an approach that would bring us closer together, that built trust by letting me know that there just wasn't anything he feared about me. He did not take any of my actions personally. 

I think one issue here for why men won't do this, besides inconvenience, is pride. They take those words and actions personally and think they are being insulted. It's like they can't put their pride aside and try to see the real problem: the emotional struggle inside their wife.

I will tell you, though, Rose, if I were a man, I bet I could not have done what dh did. I bet I would have taken the approach you and TAG suggested, asserting my own rights and demanding a certain type of behavior regardless of her inner state. I would have said all the same things, for all the same reasons, that you have. It would all be very logical and rational.

But I don't think that approach would solve the problem. Would it stop the behavior? Probably, if the woman was dependent enough to have to stop it.

But this is not about stopping the behavior. This is about healing the heart, which is where the behavior comes from.



What is KISA, by the way?

When I say I don't believe in 50/50 marriages, I mean this idea that I am doing half the work, and no more. I will meet her halfway, and no more. That is certainly easier, more convenient.

The OP may not want to take on this project. He would have to really love this woman to be able to do this. Only he knows in his heart what he wants/is capable of doing. It is good he is getting so much input.

Dh never felt threatened by my angry outbursts. He is not threatened by me, period. And, lol, he is certainly not passive aggressive. 

It takes a lot more than temper tantrums for my dh to have to leave a room. I could not respect a man who had to leave the room because I was just too much for him.

I think we may have different ideas about what strength is in a man. And as you have said, different women need different things in a man.

I don't know what would have happened to me if I had not met my dh. I do not know what my life would have been like without his love, his strength. It has been so incredibly healing. I really would like every woman to feel as loved and experience the healing that my dh has brought into my life. That is why I am sharing this story.


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## Morgiana (Oct 18, 2011)

jld said:


> And as you have said, different women need different things in a man.


I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.

In general though, for one partner to sit and take abuse from he other does create a power imbalance and needs to be dealt with. Walking away and refusing to accept this behaviour is a valid way to deal with it that preserves the power balance, and forces the 'attacker' to rethink their approach if they want to get a point across. I'm glad you and your H found your balance, because each and every marriage is different, but it also just sounds like maybe both of your quirks are perfect fits.

-M


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> How often are the anger cycles? One a week, once a month?
> 
> Also, consider some IC, perhaps with some specialization in anger management. It may be that the two of you can't do this on your own.


I'm probably making it out to sound worse than it is because I started this post right after an outburst. Maybe there's a bad outburst maybe two times a year. By "bad" I mean that I get pretty angry or upset over what she's said or done. There's more minor stuff, which I suppose I've gotten used to, every six weeks or so. I don't keep track, though. It could be less than that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Morgiana said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.
> 
> In general though, for one partner to sit and take abuse from he other does create a power imbalance and needs to be dealt with. Walking away and refusing to accept this behaviour is a valid way to deal with it that preserves the power balance, and forces the 'attacker' to rethink their approach if they want to get a point across. I'm glad you and your H found your balance, because each and every marriage is different, but it also just sounds like maybe both of your quirks are perfect fits.
> 
> -M


Hi, Morgiana. Thanks for your post.

People do tell us we make a good team. We have heard that we are so "together" and "in harmony" with one another. I guess whatever we are doing works for us, even if we don't always understand why. We sure aren't following all the rules I seem to see here.

I see a lot of hurting women in this world. I think a man's love has incredible healing potential for a woman. 

I remember wondering, when dh first started this relationship with me, is he actually an angel in the form of a man? Had God, knowing how messed up I was, sent someone to help me? 

It sure felt like it. I just could not believe how kind and gentle and just truly good he was.

And one of my older sisters told me, a few years later, that in all her 40+ years, in both her corporate and personal life, she had never known a man like my dh.

I am so glad he was not getting advice from the "experts". I am so glad he listened to his heart and his gut and trusted his knowledge of me, and let his love and commitment guide him. 

He knew he was at least partially responsible for those tantrums. I don't really understand why some men won't take responsibility like dh has. I truly don't. 

Dh says some men just don't want to have to work too hard. He says that when you go play a soccer game, you don't put 50%. You put in 100% for the team.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

trilobite said:


> I'm probably making it out to sound worse than it is because I started this post right after an outburst. Maybe there's a bad outburst maybe two times a year. By "bad" I mean that I get pretty angry or upset over what she's said or done. There's more minor stuff, which I suppose I've gotten used to, every six weeks or so. I don't keep track, though. It could be less than that.


I don't know any perfect women, trilobite. Any woman is going to bring flaws to the marriage. Resolving conflict is going to be necessary in any relationship.

Only you really know what you can handle. Only you know how much she is worth to you.

Best of luck as you decide what to do.


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## trilobite (Jan 1, 2014)

RoseAglow said:


> What you are describing are Angry Outbursts. They are actions that can kill love. I recommend checking out the book Love Busters by Willard Harley, and seeing if she will read it with you. It might help her realize the destructiveness of what she is doing and help her find ways to react differently.
> 
> Good luck!


I think this is the core problem. She doesn't really get how bad these outbursts are for us. She has problems accepting guilt and blame. I notice in general (work and home life) that she's bad assigning blame to herself. So when she does something really bad towards me, she feels the need to justify it rather than accept that she's being totally out of line. In turn, I prefer to forget these outbursts. So I tell her at the time that it's bad, but we don't actively work towards fixing it. 

I will try tonight to bring it up and see what happens. I think setting up a time when we can air our grievances is important. Other than that, the only thing I can think of doing is telling her that she has one more "free" outburst then I'll leave. The problem is, though, that I don't know if I'm prepared to follow through on the threat and I don't think a threat like that is healthy. I suppose I need to decide what I want (stay or leave) and follow though with it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

trilobite said:


> I think this is the core problem. She doesn't really get how bad these outbursts are for us. She has problems accepting guilt and blame. I notice in general (work and home life) that she's bad assigning blame to herself. So when she does something really bad towards me, she feels the need to justify it rather than accept that she's being totally out of line. In turn, I prefer to forget these outbursts. So I tell her at the time that it's bad, but we don't actively work towards fixing it.
> 
> I will try tonight to bring it up and see what happens. I think setting up a time when we can air our grievances is important. Other than that, the only thing I can think of doing is telling her that she has one more "free" outburst then I'll leave. The problem is, though, that I don't know if I'm prepared to follow through on the threat and I don't think a threat like that is healthy. I suppose I need to decide what I want (stay or leave) and follow though with it.


It sounds like you should probably just end it. Explain why. At least she can learn from it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Morgiana said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.
> 
> In general though, for one partner to sit and take abuse from he other does create a power imbalance and needs to be dealt with. Walking away and refusing to accept this behaviour is a valid way to deal with it that preserves the power balance, and forces the 'attacker' to rethink their approach if they want to get a point across.
> -M


:iagree:

Funny,
You are the only person here on TAM that I've seen used the term " power imbalance " or what is known as the
" power differential" with reference to intimate relationships.

It's something I learned while in marital counselling and I've read a lot about it. I've seen the dynamics of it play out here in some posts / threads.
But somehow people on here don't seem to know it exists , how to properly manage it to benefit the relationship , and what can be done to correct an imbalance.

Or maybe they know it by some other term?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Some people are monstrous passive aggressive bullies, you know. It's not a 'syndrome' or 'disorder' or 'malady'. It's not even what they do, it's who they are. Some people would rather be hated than ignored because that's how paranoids roll.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> He knew he was at least partially responsible for those tantrums. I don't really understand why some men won't take responsibility like dh has. I truly don't.


This clarifies a lot.


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