# Old chestnut: sex=love, plus how long to rebuild?



## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

Two questions in one might be asking a lot, but here goes:
Can anyone actually explain thoroughly, from a man's perspective, the notion that without sex a man feels unloved - yet of course (generalising) without love, affection, acceptance, etc, many women don't have the inclination to have sex
Second question: I'm taking the leap of faith to try to rebuild our affection by hopefully rebuilding our sex life first - which I fear may leave me behaving slightly 'numb' or 'uncertain' - how long does anyone reckon it might be before he feels yes we're back on the sexual track and he can safely display love, reassurance, etc?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I think if you show good faith for a month or two and nothing happens, you should point out to him what you need and expect.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

It might take a little longer than that, but re-establishing intimacy sexually can be an important step to re-establishing intimacy over-all. But I applaud your effort. And here's my take on sex and love from a male perspective -- your mileage may vary.

Without going into too much detail about the intricacies of male and female sexual biology, physiology, and psychology, the bare bones of the store is that men as a class feel a nearly-constant underlying drive for sex that is, literally, relentless. That doesn't mean a man can't control himself -- of course he can -- but the fulfillment of that drive becomes the central focus of his life, and nearly all of his ambitions and goals line up behind it in one way or another. He may subvert that energy into creative or vocational pursuits, sports, or other competitive endeavor, but the underlying pressure is always there. Now, depending upon his cultural upbringing and his social status, he may be more or less adept at pursuing this drive directly, but for most men that incessant buzz makes getting laid (or some sort of sex) the most important thing in his head. Until that buzz goes away, all of those other thoughts and feelings get walled up and de-prioritized as secondary. When you're "on the hunt" all the time, getting in touch with your emotions is just a bad idea, since they usually add resistance to the getting-laid process.

So men put up walls against intimacy -- except for sexual intimacy. When a man is courting a woman and on "first date" behavior, he's channeling that buzz into impressing the hell out of you with his prowess, companionship, and thoughtfulness. At that point he can use those deeper emotions to fuel his Prime Directive with all sincerity -- he really does like you . . . he just wants to like you while getting into your pants. The fact that he wants to get into your pants in no way decreases how much he likes you, more than likely. A man shines during courtship because he's auditioning and persuading, until he comes to a sexual understanding with you.

Once you actually fulfill his sexual needs that first few times, you can do no wrong: you are the Deliverer From The Buzz, sweet, sexy, etc. etc. Between gratitude (and yes, we really are grateful) and fulfillment, men have a short grace period in which they can allow themselves to bring their deeper emotions to the surface -- hence all the fascinating pillow-talk you indulged in in the early days that convinced you what a cool guy he was. Believe it or not, guys enjoy getting in touch with their deeper emotions due to how rigorously we have to suppress them, and with the subsequent flood of oxytocin the experience becomes somewhat addictive. Psychologically, women in the early stages of a sexual relationship are viewed almost as intoxicants for guys. When your surging testosterone gets rewarded with oxytocin and serotonin on a regular basis, psychologically speaking you become a kind of sex goddess delivering him from the horrors of the buzz. He finds it easy to open up to you, share his deeper self with you, become emotionally vulnerable in your arms and at peace with the world until he leaves and the buzz starts coming back.

And then you go and get married and everything changes.

The buzz doesn't go away, and usually for the first few months a married couple can indulge in wild sex with staggering frequency with no serious issues. As a matter of fact, that "pair-bonding" period is vital to the long-term stability of the relationship. The stronger the pair-bond (fueled by the hormone oxytocin -- which is present in semen) the better, so the sex (and subsequent psychological post-coitus imprinting) and the sharing and the intimacy are just swell . . . until they aren't.

The phrase "familiarity breeds contempt" might not be the most apt to use in this case, but the idea is right. Over time the oxytocin fades, and the serotonin levels off and suddenly, crap, you're married. Suddenly the woman you sleep with is not just your semi-divine deliverer from The Buzz, she is also your de facto business partner, roommate, and legal guardian. The different areas start to overlap influence, until the happy sexy serotonin-laden evenings of yore give way to the plodding, normal, mundane realization that love and sex and that glorious release is now conditional, despite everyone's best efforts. Instead of a glorious goddess, your wife becomes your Keeper, the only one who has a right to relieve your Buzz. Sex (which you crave like a drug, since it's how you access your deep emotions that tell you who you really are) is now nearly completely under your wife's control. You're in a relationship: if she doesn't supply the relief from the Buzz, then you're reduced to masturbation (which only quiets the Buzz for a while, and rarely long enough to enjoy your deeper emotions) or doing whatever your wife wants you to do in order to get that relief. What was once a free choice is now an obligation, and a steadily familiar one at that. 

Now The Buzz can make you crazy. If a man has spent most of his life learning how to date/court/hunt, then his natural reaction is to respond to his increased Buzz -- and his suddenly-controlled access to his deeper emotions -- by reverting to old hunter patterns, i.e. anything from buying porn to looking up old girlfriends on Facebook. He literally doesn't know any other way to respond, since our culture puts very little store in preparing adults for marriage, although we do better at courtship than just about anyone.

At this point the resentments start to build up on both sides, because in the face of higher Buzz and less free relief from that Buzz, one of a man's natural inclinations is to emotionally withdraw. This is usually counterproductive, since it increases stress on the relationship and decreases the likelihood of Buzz-relief, but really, it's pretty much all he knows how to do. Because at the same time he's adjusting to this new regime, his wife is adjusting to getting the serotonin-enhanced intimate (non-sexual) attention that the first few months or years of marriage brings her. 

For women, sex works differently. Women as a class lead with their emotions, they do not conceal them. They desire the connection with the deep emotions first before they can extend that connection through sex. That puts them at odds with their new husbands, who want the sex first because that's how they access the deep emotions that the women want to feel connected to. In addition, women are more cyclic in the way their hormones work (and not just about menstruation -- women have several interlocking hormone cycles) and therefore their perspective on the relationship, their husband, their own self-image and self-worth, and especially their feelings about sex are in a constant state of change. 

If men lower a bucket into the well of their deep emotions, women have a whirlpool -- which makes connection between the two particularly difficult. In a marriage, women want to sustain the emotional connection and intimacy as long as possible, with sex as a punctuating factor that becomes a celebration of the relationship. The less intimacy they feel outside of the bedroom, the more insecure they are inside the bedroom, and that usually means they're more reluctant to initiate or even participate in sex. And if she senses a male emotional withdrawal on the other side of the table, this just gets worse. From the female perspective this loss of attention and non-sexual intimacy is converted into self-doubt and lower self-esteem as she (usually wrongfully) blames exterior appearances for the freeze. A woman feels a man pull back and she thinks, "I must not be that appealing to him anymore". That usually leads to her resenting him for his lack of attention and connection, a lot of discussion with her posse about the issue, and eventually a lot of retail therapy as she searches for the perfect shoes/make-up/clothes that will make him suddenly pay her the attention she's missing.

Men, on the other hand, see the emotional connection and intimacy as locked up with the sexual aspects of the relationship because, for him, that's exactly how it works. If a woman withdraws from the sexual relationship, the male doesn't usually feel it's because of a loss of attraction, but as punishment or means of control. Males almost always take sex very personally: if she slept with you once and therefore found you attractive and acceptable, then any subsequent rejection of sex refutes the earlier decision. You must now be somehow less attractive and acceptable, while nothing ostensibly has changed about you, because otherwise why would she stop? But since men attract women by their success, not their appearance, this and the Buzz-craziness can force a man to over-compensate in an effort to re-prove his worthiness to his wife enough to re-establish the sexual connection. That sometimes means becoming a work-o-holic, and sometimes that means pursuing activities which make him feel like a success, even if they don't mean much to his wife (see: Fantasy Football Leagues). Because he psychologically feels if he can elevate his status somehow then she will find him worthy of love again and make the damnable Buzz go away again . . . so he can feel normal again.

In fact, the male self-image is often inextricably entwined with his relationship, which in his mind is dependent on sex. Since men are judged in our society by our ability to attract and maintain sexual partners through our ability to be successful, then when a man isn't sleeping with his wife he takes it very deeply personally as a rejection not of sex, but of sex with him. The Goddess Of Buzz Removal is now the Warden Of The Buzz. As his wife feels more and more insecure about the growing emotional divide in the relationship and withdraws sexually, the decrease in sexual frequency and intensity signals to a man that he is being an inadequate success and leads him to withdraw emotionally even further. 

Feeling that much more alienated from his deep emotions, with little or no hope of attaining them with his wife's help, now, plunges many men into a downward spiral of despair, resentment, self-loathing, and self doubt that can be literally crippling. If hopelessness takes hold, it can lead to suicide or violence. Some try to by-pass the Buzz by anesthetizing with alcohol (which allows us to reach some of our emotions . . . but not always the pleasant ones). Some emotionally withdraw almost completely since they have no other psychological options. Some try a host of tactics to placate their wives, whose own emotions on the subject are a moving target nearly impossible to casually understand. And, of course, when the wife realizes that her husband is trying to "manipulate" her into sex, she freezes up even further. "No, I have a headache" becomes "No, maybe this weekend" becomes "Didn't I tell you no?" becomes "All you want is sex!" and eventually the deep freeze that usually happens just before marital counseling and/or divorce. A woman feels justified for refusing to make herself vulnerable sexually when her emotional needs haven't been met. A man desperately wants to access those emotional feelings himself, but can't without her help. 

But those nightly rejections only make the Buzz louder and that makes us that much crazier. After a while, a man decides the hurdles his wife has put up are too high and are not worth the effort -- he'd rather learn to live with the Buzz and encyst himself with quiet bitterness than compromise his remaining self-respect by what he sees as capitulation to her "emotional demands". 

In short, sex before intimacy for men, intimacy before sex for women. 

But of course it gets yet more complicated as the couple tries to sort this out, particularly on the male side. If not distracted by parenthood (which is a whole different but related kettle of fish) then the male in this stage of his relationship has a couple of options: end the relationship either formally or informally in search of a new Buzz Remover, or figure out a way to re-establish communication and intimacy with his wife. 

At this point it can be a lot harder to do as miscommunication, resentments, and hurt feelings (usually tied into other crap that's also going on in the marriage) have hardened into a kind of marital cyst. The partners are opposed: he starts seeing her as a controlling bee-yatch, and she starts seeing him as an arrogant, selfish, emotionally cold and demanding bastard. She's been encouraged by her posse to stand firm and demand a return to the non-sexual intimacy as a precondition for sex, and he's been encouraged by his wounded ego that non-sexual intimacy and emotional bonding is pretty much impossible without the security of sex. Neither one is usually ready to lay down their aggressive and defensive feelings towards each other to initiate a truce. 

But that's what has to happen. In essence, once the two parties understand their mutual needs, and realize the relative importance of sexual and non-sexual intimacies to each other, then (and this is vital) the two may begin to establish marital rituals that support those roles and encourage not just regular and entertaining sex to both parties' satisfaction, but concurrent non-sexual intimacy as well. The combination (if everything works properly) can harden into a very adept and flexible partnership, if they can make this leap. Those are those "perfect marriages" like me and Athol have. Meaning, of course, that things aren't perfect all the time, but the rituals that have been established can quickly bring disharmony back into balance to preserve and sustain the union in difficult times.

Sex is an essential building block for any marriage, but it's widely misunderstood by just about everyone. Most of us don't understand our own sexuality, much less our entire gender's -- and we have only the barest clues about the other gender. We expect that "love conquers all" but the truth is that love is not always the most appropriate tool for every occasion. Communication, negotiation, understanding, respect, value, and other factors must augment our love, or we never get beyond the courting stage. 




As I said, I applaud your efforts, but I will also say that you need to be patient and persistent as you both re-acclimatize to an intimate relationship. Don't expect overnight success -- but you'll likely start seeing encouraging signs if you approach it right. If you want my advice on specifics, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to give it. Of course, there are lots of other variables that will be in play that I'm not taking into account. But by re-establishing the sexual connection, making it much easier for him to access his emotions on his own, you can at least put him in a position where he feels like he can open up to you again, emotionally, and start developing those rituals with you.

Good luck, and I hope I helped!


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

Will have to cut & paste to read properly but thanks! Will come back with some thoughts a n other time


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Ian, very good post. The ladies really need to read this, twice. I have not done much research but what he said match MY relationship and how I am, to the tee. 

This rings especially true on how sex with our partner allows us men to safely access our deepest emotions. And yes, it does feel really good for us to be freed to feel those emotions. 

But without sex, we shut those emotions down cold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sntdwn2ufrmhvn (May 20, 2010)

what i learned from this? apparently i think like a man...LOL


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## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

Holey shorts IanIronwood, that is it. In one post you have saved countless people from having to read who knows how many books on the subject. This is all people really need to understand what happens. It's the entire kit-and-kaboodle in one, beautiful summary. 

Your post is a masterpiece. 

It should be required reading by every couple on earth, as early in their relationship as possible. 

:smthumbup:


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## Nine-E (Oct 7, 2008)

The one thing I would add is that the woman usually does have sex early on in the relationship, long before any deep emotional bond is formed with the man. "He's a decent guy, I feel safe, so sure, I'll have sex with him." She doesn't ALWAYS need that kind of bond to have sex. It's after he commits himself to her that she starts requiring that emotional bond, and he's left feeling like a victim of a bait-and-switch. Why did she change? Why can't she be that insatiable sex kitten she used to be? Why is she now demanding more?

To the guy , it's both baffling and hurtful.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Heh, showed my girl your post Ian. First she was: Too long! Then she was: Wow, you always told me about it but how he wrote it you can really see the importance. Then I was: ... =)

And then I showed her a few of the women's posts and asked if this is how women feel. Got a big "Yep!" and "You guys are easier to understand".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Nine-E said:


> Holey shorts IanIronwood, that is it. In one post you have saved countless people from having to read who knows how many books on the subject. This is all people really need to understand what happens. It's the entire kit-and-kaboodle in one, beautiful summary.
> 
> Your post is a masterpiece.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Thankyouverymuch . . . (*bow*)


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Ian did a great job. I would add that you got to show him how to get you in the mood and how to make you feel love. Don't be vague. Tell him what he does/doesn't do that puts you off. I cannot stress this enough. I hate answers like "I don't know" or "be affectionate". Those leave it up to him and he'll probably get them wrong. I bet more than the act of sex he wants you to "want" him so keeping him well informed is key. Good luck.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Ian

That mammoth post makes for some food for thought.

Can I just interject; you talk about a man withdrawing because the woman has withdrawn sex and the feelings that go around that.

What do you have to say about when the sex life is good but the man is not being affectionate? In my case things are good in the bedroom (his words, he is very happy with things) but he is very reticent to show the affection I want and need. I've posted about it over in General Discussions- "How do you give less to get more?"- and am currently feeling very angry about it; he'd soon have something to say if I withdrew from him yet he is fine with dismissing my needs for affection. I am now finding myself withdrawing from him simply because I don't feel like I can be close with someone who is so ready to dismiss my needs.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

tobio said:


> Ian
> 
> That mammoth post makes for some food for thought.
> 
> ...


How explicitly have you stated your needs to him? That could be very important. Many women feel that men should just "know" how they want affection and when, and then get upset when they don't respond the way you want them to. Men are very literal, but most are open to changing their behaviors like that if they're given a valid enough reason. It might require a little re-training, but guys also respond well to incentives.

I'd say your best move is to concisely state your needs to him in a way and style he understands, without being accusing. More 
"I have a deep-seated need to be touched in a non-sexual affectionate manner on a daily basis, and it really matters to me. It's very important. A hug in the morning before we start our day, a peck on the cheek, some extra cuddle time, holding hands in public -- all of these are good. I don't want you to feel like I'm prompting you, because you're an adult and you can make your own decisions. I'm just telling you how I feel and what I want . . . and I'm open to even making it fun for you, if you will help me achieve this important part of my happiness." and less "Dammit, why don't you touch me anymore? Is it that heinous tart in Accounting? Is she prettier than me? Why are you emotionally withdrawing? WHY? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU? Why didn't you give me a hug when it was obvious I needed it?" etc. etc.

Guys are kinda dumb, but unless he's got some childhood issues about physical affection (and he might) then he's likely just clueless.

Any help?


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

"Is it that heinous tart in Accounting?" Absolutely ROFL at that! He works in a male environment, he's with men all day every day. Jeezus he's more affectionate with his best mate than with me!

I get you. I have said explicitly what I want, a kiss when he comes in (doesn't want to, feels too icky from work), hugs whenever, sit next to me on the sofa in the evening (wants his own space), the only thing he spontaneously offers is a back rub and that's only at bedtime because it seems it's a precursor to sex for him. He's so big on wanting his own space, that's how he rebuffs me so often.

He makes out like I'm being demanding for wanting affection- I feel like a real inconvenience to him. He'd happily exist with companionship and sex. And that's it. He said it doesn't come naturally and he could live without it!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

tobio said:


> "Is it that heinous tart in Accounting?" Absolutely ROFL at that! He works in a male environment, he's with men all day every day. Jeezus he's more affectionate with his best mate than with me!
> 
> I get you. I have said explicitly what I want, a kiss when he comes in (doesn't want to, feels too icky from work), hugs whenever, sit next to me on the sofa in the evening (wants his own space), the only thing he spontaneously offers is a back rub and that's only at bedtime because it seems it's a precursor to sex for him. He's so big on wanting his own space, that's how he rebuffs me so often.
> 
> He makes out like I'm being demanding for wanting affection- I feel like a real inconvenience to him. He'd happily exist with companionship and sex. And that's it. He said it doesn't come naturally and he could live without it!


OK, try this: Offer to give him a full 45 minutes when he gets home to shower, decompress, enjoy his own space, unwind, etc., a time in which you will absolutely not bug him unless the house is on fire. In exchange, you get fifteen minutes of kisses, hugs, and talking about your day. I can relate to the lack of affection, especially when you're working a "man's man" job. It takes quite a lot to mentally shift gears, and that first hour a man is home he's trying to do just that. Moving from "grunt sweat spit" to "lovey dovey" is like trying to shift from fourth gear to first. Messes with the transmission.

Tell me, is there anything special you do for him he'd like to see more of in his life?


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

You know, the other day I suggested to get over the feeling icky from work thing, he could have a shower straight after getting in. The thing is, he walks in the house just as chaos is ensuing, we have four young kids and he knows teatime is when I need the hands-on help the most so he prioritises that- rightly in the overall scheme of things. However if he were to jump in the shower first off we could have the coupley time after the kids are in bed, or he could shower and we could sit together again after the kids are in bed. But he will not shower until bedtime. I have wondered if this is a coincidence or not...?

Anything special I do he'd like to see more of? Hmm. I have got to say, recently I have been doing the "giving" more all round. I have been overcompensating by stepping everything up- not that it's been doing me any good! I think at this juncture, he'd especially love it if I just left him to his own devices when at home and he could get me on call by snapping his fingers when he wants some...  Sorry being flippant but feeling rather fed up!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Sure you are, I get that. What's his excuse for his reluctance to show physical affection? Have you ever tried to pin him down on it?


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I actually have a thread running here about it.

There's a couple of things he's said. Firstly: the space. "I need my space", "I just want some space", "when I've been at work all day, I just want to have a bit of space"- you get the gist. I give him space, plenty of space. He goes out three times a week for a couple of hours for beers, plus the odd extra evening or long afternoon session with family. I never interfere in that. Plus he runs errands to do with his hobbies. That's fine, I like him having his hobbies. He has physical space when we're in the same room- at this point I don't tend to ask much for him to sit with me (he doesn't as a rule, he prefers to sit across from me.) I don't by any means get in his face, hang over him or anything like that.

"I'm just not like that." Right. Funny though, he was when we first started going out, he used to complain *I* wasn't affectionate enough in public, Had a real thing about it. Seems to be used as a reason why he can't TRY to be like that, even a little.

"People just don't do that once they've been together a while." Supported by anecdotal evidence of other married couples we know (we're not married yet btw) who don't show any displays of affection when we're with them. I shake my head at this... I have argued that what he is implicitly saying is basically that he doesn't have to make the effort because he's "got" me. And you know- he admitted this once. He SAID IT WAS TRUE. And look- by me silently letting this be the status quo for a while, I have silently "accepted" this. But I don't now.


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