# Constant parental discord ... REALLY LONG thread



## 0ptical

Well, this is the first time that I've ever decided to reach out with my problem to the public world, though I must admit off the bat that I am skeptical about what solutions could be offered aside from actual family counseling. Having said that, me being here, I'm willing to try some suggestions.

Some background information about me and my family first, which I feel will be paramount in any advice that may be offered. I am a 28 year old only child. I have an undergraduate degree in Psychology and Sociology, so I am familiar with some of the different forms of therapy out there. Currently, I'm in my third year of law school. I am from a Chinese (Hong Kong) family background, but born and raised in North America.

My father is a 61 year old family physician having practiced medicine for 30 years, and has yet to retire. He is the oldest of four siblings, having two younger brothers, and one younger sister. Recently, for the past two years, he has been attempting to treat my 31 year old female cousin (his niece, daughter of my uncle _on my mothers side_) for alcohol addiction (this will have relevance later on). 

My mother is also 61, and works for the government, also not retired. She is the fifth sibling, with two living younger brothers, and two living older brothers. Three other siblings passed away when they were young, making her the only female. 

My parents have been married for 26 years, never divorced.

The short of it is that they have been constantly bickering almost daily (usually about small things like why the dishes weren't done, "I took out the trash last week"), and have huge arguments (see below for details) sometimes weekly, or biweekly. The longest I've experienced them not getting into a shouting match is probably 2 months at best.

Let me divide this into areas of what problems I am experiencing (in no particular order of importance):

*Problem #1: Mother*
It is my personal feeling that my mother initiates arguments with my father, and myself the majority of the time. She has throughout my life blown things out of proportion and will start yelling and screaming. The entire family on her side knows of her temper, and my grandma has told me numerous times just to keep it inside and I can discuss it with her anytime I want to when my mother throws a fit. However, I never burdened my grandparents with my mothers tantrums, nor do I feel that I should just "keep it inside."

Example 1:
When I was a child, around 8 years old (give or take 2 years) I remember wanting to eat ice cream. Most people should know, kids usually whine and whine until they get what they want. So, being a kid, that's what I did. Until she slammed the ice cream down on the kitchen table and screamed at me "fine, you want the ice cream so much eat it!" (or something with similar effect). At which point, she started yelling at me, and saying that she doesn't know why she's living if I won't even listen to her. She grabbed the cleaver from the kitchen and tried to chop her arm off, which my father did manage to stop by grabbing her. 

Example 2:
When I was about 13, we (my mother, father, myself, and a few uncles) were on a trip and walking around a mall. I'm not sure the exact details of why an argument ensued between my mother and father, but it ended in her screaming at him and trying to kick him down the stairs. With my uncles (my mothers brothers) intervening.

Example 3:
While on the phone with my grandmother about 2 years ago, I'm not sure what the conversation between them was, but my mother screamed at the top of her lungs at my grandmother saying "why are you scolding me? Why are you telling me _I_ should do this and that?" She then threw the phone down, and ran screaming and crying to the bathroom.

More recently, I feel she has gotten more controlling and out of control. Since my father started treating my cousin for alcohol addiction, she has become extremely jealous to the point that she accuses my father of having an affair with my cousin. Arguments usually ensue after each time my father goes to see my cousin.

Because of patient confidentiality, my father generally does not like discussing the matters of my cousin with us. Though we all are aware of her addiction, and she knows that we know. She had stayed at our house for a week at one time. If my father doesn't tell my mother what was discussed after each meeting, she will become very annoyed and agitated. If he does discuss it voluntarily, she will say things like "why are you telling me? I thought you weren't supposed to discuss her issues?"

I feel she provokes arguments with statements like "you said you were going to drop off medicine and only be a short while, I didn't realize that 1 hour is a 'short while'," and "you were over there for an hour, why?"

Usually if we try to explain things to her, she will twist the story around and start accusing and thinking absurd thoughts such as "oh, you must have been there because you like it better than home." or "of course you were over there when her parents weren't home, so that you can have sex with her," and "oh I don't know why you insist on treating her, maybe because you like her, because she's young and fresh." If my dad ignores her, she will slam doors, slam glasses on the table, kick chairs until we acknowledge her. 

My mother throws temper tantrums like a child in a toy store that does not get what they want. She will throw herself on the ground, kicking, screaming, crying, and throwing things. There is no exaggeration, think of a child throwing a temper tantrum, and picture a 61 year old doing the same thing.

Also recently, they got into a heated argument over my cousin, and while they were on the road, my mother opened the passenger side door twice: once while on local roads, and once while on the entrance ramp to the highway. She has also started drinking around 3 glasses of rum and Coke the following day after each argument. I presume as an attempt to gain attention.

Arguments have also gotten to the point where she has threatened to kill my father, or herself. In one instance, I called the police because of fear of what might ensue (though they are unaware it was me who called, they are under the impression they were so loud, and that it was the neighbors who called). The police have taken a record of domestic dispute at our residence.

*Problem #2: Father*
Despite my suggestions that we should seek family therapy and counseling, my father has repeatedly declined and stated that we don't need it, that he is a doctor and that he is in the best position to help.

He boldly indicates that the psychologists and therapists won't know better than him and laughs at me when I suggest otherwise. My father feels that because he is an MD that he is more apt and able to deal with these problems. He also thinks that because he has been "dealing" with my mothers behavior for 30 years, that he has seen a marked improvement, and that no anger management or family therapy will help because it is a "personality disorder."

I have told him numerous times that I'm afraid one of these days he will lose "control" of her, and that she might be crazy enough to act upon those death threats or suicide threats. 

My father is also afraid of "losing face" and will only lower his voice in a heated argument with my mother because he is afraid that the neighbors will hear and that the police will pay another visit to our residence, and his name will be on the front page of every local paper. "Do you really want our names in the paper; do you want everyone to know that Dr. <last name> is arrested for domestic dispute???"

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That is the end of my discussion regarding the problems in our household. It is causing me great anxiety, and depression. I don't know when the next argument will ever erupt, and I cannot even go out and enjoy myself with my friends or girlfriend without feeling anxiety about whether I will come home to another argument or if I will return home to find a corpse.

Thank you in advance for any possible advice.


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## swedish

Wow, doesn't sound like a pleasant environment at all. I have to say, I think your father is on the mark. It does sound like some sort of personality disorder as your mother's melt-downs seem totally irrational. I also have to agree with your father's approach of lowering his voice. Raising his voice would probably only get your mother even more riled up.

I agree with you that the death/suicide threats are very disturbing and understand you don't want to 'hope' it's just for attention and come to find otherwise. To be honest, if I were in your father's position, I would call 911 at the next threat of suicide and have her committed. I would imagine trying to get her to get help on her own will be next to impossible as she sees all of her problems due to everyone around her.

Sorry you are in such a tough spot.


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## 0ptical

Unfortunately, my father being a physician doesn't want my mom committed as he is afraid then she will really go crazy, and also because of the stigma. Stigma is also the reason he won't call 911 when my mother goes ballistic. 

On my end of things, do I really want my mother being arrested for uttering death threats? It is a criminal offence here to utter death threats generally tried as a summary conviction with a maximum penalty of 18 months, though it can be tried by indictment. If I call 911, I won't lie to the police. If they come over and she's kicking and screaming and tries to attack one of the officers, that won't be good. These are all very relevant things to consider as to why I haven't called the police more often. That, and my mom is very child like, naive, and sheltered. She would not last long in jail.

For the past two days they have been arguing again with my mom throwing herself on the ground kicking and screaming. Initially we thought she calmed down at around 3am when she told us to leave her alone, so my father went to sleep and I sat in my room at my computer, while my mother sat at the kitchen table. At around 4am, she started kicking kitchen chairs, and screaming expletives until we came downstairs. She started bringing up the points that were already brought up 5 hours prior, and irrationally screaming till 5:30am.

At around 7am I found her standing next to my bedside crying and apologizing that she was disturbing my studies, and that this isn't her home.

I'm really at quite a loss as to what to do. Not only will it be difficult to convince my mother to go to counselling, it would be equally difficult to convince my father.


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## swedish

I understand your (and your father's) concern in calling 911...Jail is absolutely not what she needs but for her own safety and yours, being admitted to a psychiatric ward would be best if she threatens to take her own life. Call if you need to and I wouldn't lie to the police either, but I would make sure I informed them about her child-like behavior/issues so they might be more understanding if she's out of control.

Have you asked your father if he believes she might have some sort of chemical imbalance that could be treated with medication? I would guess he would have gone that route by now if possible, but there may be some new treatments out there that may help her.


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## mom876

Your dad really needs to let her me examined by another doctor before it is too late. It sounds like your mom is dealling with a lot of inner turmoil that could be relieved with the proper treatment. There is no shame in that.


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## 0ptical

Sorry I haven't responded to the posts lately due to the holidays. I have taken note of the advice provided here, but I'm almost certain that none of them will work. My father is quite a stubborn individual who is almost sitting on a throne with the "I know best" attitude, much too proud to ask for others advice or suggestions.

The other day I told him I would "teach" him how to use the computer and the new HTPC I setup. He immediately "corrected" me by suggesting that since I was younger than him, and his son, that I could not "teach" him but merely "inform" him. Really, it's just playing with the semantics, but I let him be.

There haven't been any arguments lately, but just short annoyances from my mom really. Such as when my dad asked my mom if she wanted to go out for dinner, mother suggested "no, we better stay in because you might be on call for <cousins name>, and then you'll _immediately_ have to jump to her place if she calls you."

Thanks for reading, I'll keep new events posted ...


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## 0ptical

Well I haven't really posted here in a while as nothing significant has change. To be honest, this current post is really more of a vent. Mainly because I'm sitting here at 4am in the morning with feelings of anxiety and at a loss. I have my law exam finals in two months and things haven't necessarily been better around the household and I can't seem to focus on my studies. Every time I'm out of the house studying I feel anxious if my parents are home wondering if they'll get into a fight. When I'm studying at home and both of them are home, I find myself trying to listen to almost every word they're saying to see if an argument is about to break out. I can't sleep until I hear my father snoring, in fear that they might start bickering in bed which has happened in the past.

It has gotten to the point that whenever my father drops off medication or counsels my cousin, my mother gets extremely jealous and must "discuss" the matter. Now, it's gotten to the point of rather than arguing at home, she will find him after work and argue, or they will argue in the car. Today, I found myself anxiously waiting for them to arrive home after they said they were leaving a dinner party at 12:00am. After calling my mother's mobile 10 times, and paging my dad 8 time to no avail, I was certain they were arguing. Sure enough they were "discussing" matters of my cousin at a local coffee shop till 2:00am. I gather it wasn't a full blown argument as they were still talking to each other when they arrived home, albeit in a very cold and blunt manner.

I want to leave, at least for these three months till I finish my law degree, but I have nowhere to go and still fear what will happen between them if I'm gone. It seems no matter what I tell them it falls on deaf ears. I tell them I can't focus and that they sometimes cause me anxiety, but I am merely brushed aside with comments like, "close your door then," "why is it any of your business? We're the ones arguing, it shouldn't affect you."

I feel like a referee in the household. My father has become very timid, submissive, and passive to the point where he's afraid of telling my mother that the pork was overcooked one night, or that he didn't want to partake in a social event because he had work to do. He used to come home and watch TV, now he seemingly follows mom around and stays wherever she goes. If she's doing dishes he'll just sit at the kitchen table, not reading, not doing anything. If she's in the bedroom cleaning, he'll go there and just sit. I tell him he can't do that, that he's only reinforcing mom's behavior, and his only response is, "yaaa." 

I find my father is increasingly unable to make decisions on his own, or scared to make decisions that he wants. There was one night he was picking me up from work and I had already eaten, he said he was going to pick up food. As we were passing by a restaurant we frequently go to for take out, I asked him, "aren't you going here?" Without warning, he quickly made a sharp right turn at the intersection into the plaza and I asked him why he did that. His response was because I asked him if he was getting food there. I subsequently asked him if he _wanted_ food from that restaurant, and he said, "not really ..." And with that we drove out of the plaza. I keep telling him that he can make the decision or have his say, if he wants to go to Sobey's to buy orange juice and shampoo he can. He doesn't have to listen to my suggestion of going to Walmart for it. Yet, he is all too passive. I'm afraid that he's becoming too submissive possibly caused by some depression. 

Anyways, I guess I just really wanted to get that off my chest. Thank you.


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## Lark

Hello, I hope you are well. I really felt your post so I trust you won't mind a few words.

First, and most importantly, a huge hug. With your education you are obviously only too aware of the damage this situation is doing you. Before your exams can you do something nice for you like get a back massage or something to help with the combined tensions?

As you say the situation is not going to change as it's an established pattern I'm guessing no matter how far off the mark any of this might be that it can't do any harm at this point so on that premise I'm going to put down some thoughts.

Let's begin with the fact that there are couples who really like to live like this, it's a possibility. Have you seen 'Whose afraid of Virginia Wolfe'? It's about just such a couple but it's not an easy experience to see it.

But in the play, if I recall (I won't see it again so may not be too accurate) they had lost a child and she drank and they would argue in company as well as privately. I suppose one might wonder why they stayed but not only was there love, they were bonded in pain.

Surely it's likely that something significant triggered this. Talk of 'brain chemistry' should be a last resort.

Actually I've known a couple like that but in their case it was an affair and they agreed to stay together but, of course, such pain won't always be denied and anger, being a secondary emotion, usually indicates great pain. Eventually they broke up because it desroyed the marriage but not for a long time. But she was hurt with betrayal and he must have felt he deserved the suspicion and verbal lashings of intolerable pain.

I'm just wondering if there is any source of pain in your mother. Is there a pattern to the things she says? does she say the same things? Where do they all point?

We assume in marriage people are getting their needs met but this does sound like the way someone would attempt to get that kind of notice and married people can feel lonely too. Is it possible to try to identify if that is the case?

The thing is if ithe need can be identified then it can be supplied but the tricky part there is that the person doesn't want to have to tell you what it is, they want you to know because that will mean you understand them and everyone wants to be understood but at first the response is exactly the same because when someone has waited so long for something they resent the fact that it took so long so push it away and it's hard to want to keep offering but eventually, with kind and loving persistence it can turn around.

If that is it then it has been so long in the denying it won't alter with the first right gesture but eventually it will. It's scary when someone is suddenly offered what they wanted for so long and difficult to trust for fear of more disappointment.

I'm sure you know what human basic needs are but they might as well all come down to love and the different ways people need to be shown it. Some people like gifts, some people like hugs, we don't all receive love in the same way. Maybe your mother feels taken for granted and it's built up over time. I suspect she hates the way she acts. Perhaps there is something she feels lacking. We don't want to ask for emotional needs to be met because we don't think we deserve them. 

Oddly acting out can be an involuntary process by which people who feel unworthy and unlovable express something is amiss. It really isn't a conscious choice and can be excruciatingly painful for the person it is happening to. When someone feels unwanted it's even harder to ask for what they need as the fear of having it rejected is too great. Of course it's counter productive but it's a reactive process from the amygdala, our ever present child self in all it's primitivity.

Since your mother is still working and you make no mention of problems in that area is it confined to immediate family? It doesn't sound like she does this with everyone or in all environments. Could that be another clue?

I've rambled on a bit and I don't know if any of it makes any sense but I understand how hard this is and was moved to want to make some gesture of comfort. It looks like you are doing an inside job since neither of your parents will take another route. I hope you will get some support for yourself. It's admirable you want to help but they are the parents, you are the child, that is never going to change. This should all be the other way around. Take care.


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## marina72

Optical, Lark, makes some really interesting, and valid points. 

If your Mom seems to be able to function , normally in other areas of her life, and doesn't throw fits when the lady at the dress shop gets the wrong size, or when something else does not go her way, could this be totally confined within the marriage? 

Is your Father's reluctance to get her help, somehow wrapped up in his own guilt about something, that he may ,or may not have done to her, in the past, that is he unwilling to tell you, or anyone else? 

For sure, she is not behaving normally, in terms of having total breakdowns and screaming like a 2 year old. But, like Lark pointed out, it seems as though, somehow, her and his needs are being met, at least on a basic level. Most people would have left a long time ago, if their spouse behaved like this. So maybe your Dad feels there is a reason that she's gone out of control? 

However, I do understand that you've said she's always had a temper. So listening to that, it's also possible that she truly does have a personality disorder, and it's something she can't control very easily. No doubt, it's not appropriate, and she definitley needs help.

I do think, that you are right, in wanting her to get help. She sounds like she's so unstable, there is no telling what she might do if she sinks far enough into misery during one of her fits. It is upon most people, even if they are mad and yell for a minute or two to be able to settle down, and realize that they will accomplish nothing by screaming. Most people realize this and have the ability to control themselves to a point. It sounds almost like your Mom simply can't stop herself once she's riled up. And that can be Very dangerous. Who knows, what she'll eventually do? If she's hanging on the the tantrum, hours and hours, after everyone has gone to bed, and is downstairs fuming and getting more and more ragefull till someone comes downstairs to play into it, then who knows what she may eventually do, to your Father, to herself, or to all of you. 

I am not saying this to scare you. I feel you already know that the implications of her behavior could become dire, as you stated by your posts. But, the truth is, if you are truly this worried, and your Father flat out refuses to do anything about it, then the day may come, when you have to take matters into your own hands, and do something, the thing that he won't do. 

What you don't want , is to wait till something truly catastrophic happens to take action. 

I am not saying you should, or should not do anything, I'm simply pointing out that this seems to be a Very inflamatory situation, that could become much worse. She sounds , at the very least, like she's dealing with severe depression to me. And she may be in need of medication. Perhaps you can discuss whether or not she is on any, or could take some, with your Dad who is an MD?

I don't know... I really feel for you, trying to deal with something of this nature, all while trying to get your law degree, which everyone knows is a rigourous undertaking,,, you must be exhausted. 

Please think hard about everything you've told us, and read here. You will make the right choice. I can only tell you what I would do, but then I can't say with absolute certainty, because I have never been in your position, so all I can do is speculate as to what I would do.
I would call the police, the next time she goes out of control, and have her taken to the hospital, whether your Father likes it , or not. If he won't do what is necessary to get your Mom help, then it might fall to you, to make that hard decision. This is what I would do, because a situation like this one, that is this volitale , may not resolve itself, and it may pave the way for a true tragedy like your Mom taking her own life, or the life of someone else if she gets angry and out of control enough. 

Take care, and I hope I've helped some.


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## 0ptical

Thank you kindly for your responses and advice. My apologies I haven't responded to them in a while only because I've been trying to finish my studies. 

Things haven't changed much at all; except for the fact that now my mom chooses to argue with my father in the car or over the phone or when I'm out. She _thinks_ she is helping me by not arguing in front of me since I did mention to them that they were causing me anxiety with all this arguing etc., but she is far from understanding the situation of anxiety I feel when I come to a house of depressed faces, and tension all around. In any case, I want to take this time to address the two former posts. 

@ Lark ... It does seem like a great idea to go get a back massage and find some way to alleviate my tensions, I have been meaning to go for the longest time, but for different reasons, as I have an injured back. It's just so hard to fit it into the schedule these days. 

Regarding your point of the "source of pain" for my mother and a pattern for the things she says. Recently, it's always been about my cousin, and how she is being treated by my father. However, I can't seem to find any pattern for her behavior. To me, it strictly seems like she has always been used to getting what she wants when she wants, and when the situation deviates from that, she can't deal with it. 

As an example, the other day her mood seemed fine as we were talking "normally" few hours prior to the "incident." She came to the door of my room while I was studying and she asked me to take out the garbage and recycling. I answered that I would, but that I wanted to finish the few pages that I was working on. She asked me, "When will that be?" I told her I wasn't sure, but it's only 5 pages or so. Again, she asked when that will be, and I told her 30 minutes or so. She asked why I can't do it _now_, and I told her that I was trying to finish the section. She doesn't answer me, but continues to stand at my door. I asked her if she wanted anything else. She said, "No, I just want to make sure that you take out the garbage soon." I told her it wasn't necessary for her to stand at my door, and she responded, "Well I just want to see how long it takes, I'm not bothering you by standing here, I'm not even saying anything." I think most would agree understandably that by this point, I was annoyed and took out the trash.

I'm not too sure what you mean by "offering her what she wanted" or how she wouldn't feel "loved." Although it is a possibility she feels lonely? But most of the things she requests, says or wants, and things that she doesn't request we do for her. Sometimes I feel like she just actively seeks out something to bicker about. In the past she has complained that my dad and I didn't always do the dishes, and sometimes complains that the house is messy (though I do most of the complaining about that ... my parents are pack rats, but that's a whole different thread hehe). My dad will sometimes come home at around 11pm or so after working at the clinic, and do the dishes and she will say "just leave it, I will do them tomorrow, go watch some TV." Yet other times, she will complain when he is watching TV, and why can't he do some of the dishes. 

I also try to take the initiative to clean up around the house, vacuum, do the dishes, fold the laundry ... which she then complains that I shouldn't waste my time on that stuff, and I should focus more on studying. Yet, in the same month she can complain that I should take some time out of my studies to do the dishes, or vacuum! :scratchhead:

So in terms of "are her needs being met?" I'm not sure what her needs are anymore, it seems everything is already about her. My dad wakes up every morning to make her breakfast for work, in the days sometimes he wakes up late and is unable to make her breakfast, _he will bring a coffee and muffin to her workplace_. He will leave work early, so that he can take mom dancing even when he might have to finish some patient charts, he will leave the charts till the next time he goes into the office. If he wakes up, and my mother is still sleeping, he will opt to shower in my bathroom and blow dry his hair in my bathroom so as not to wake her up. While my mom would never do that (i.e. she won't make a particular effort not to wake up my dad aside from leaving the light off in the bedroom).

Also, we are expected to help her with her matters even if we are doing our own thing. If we don't, she will induce a guilt trip on us as to why we didn't help her. Such as, where she has to write a memo for work, she will ask us for our opinion etc. If we tell her we want to finish our things, she will tell us it'll only be very short that she needs our help. If we end up not helping her, she will say things like, "oh, that's ok, you must have been doing something important that you couldn't help me, like designing your website (me) or reading newspapers (dad) [even though that was not the case]."

Regarding the post as to whether it is confined to "immediate family", it is not. She will bicker and argue like this with her mother, father, and brothers as well if things aren't going "her way". Except not in the workplace.

@ marina72 ... As regards to the comment of her behavior being confined to the marriage, it is not. As stated above, she behaves the same way to other family members as well.

I'm not entirely sure if my father is experiencing other guilt about things done in the past. As far as I know, my mother’s behavior has been like this since the days I can remember. My father however, is a very ... let's say "proud" man almost seemingly believes he "knows best" because he is a MD. He doesn't feel that Psychologists can help as "he is more qualified than they are." He does not want to go to a Psychiatrist either because he knows most of the Psychiatrists around the city. Heaven forbid that one of them would discover there were family issues going on with him . While it may be a front, I'm almost certain it is not. My father is the kind of man who doesn't want private things getting out, including minor standard procedures like getting a CT scan or X-ray for himself. He will go out of his way to travel to a hospital, diagnostic imaging centre an hour and a half away _just_ so the other medical and nursing staff in this city won't know. He is the kind of man to say to me, "you can't _'teach'_ me, I'm your father. You can merely say you're 'informing me'." [In relations on how to use a digital PVR, and a computer]. To me, a truly humble and educated man would see that it's merely playing with semantics. 

Finally, I guess I want to address the point of taking medication. She would never agree to that as she doesn't see that there's a problem with her, or in the family. Every time I suggest it to my father, I get a very non-enthusiastic, "yaaa ... I don't think that'll help."

So I think the question out of all of this really is how do you convince someone, especially your parents, to go to therapy? When everyone who is informed of the situation feels that it is a start to a solution. When communication breaks down, and you have to hide things from your son and start arguing or nagging in the car, on the phone, or going to place of employment, there becomes a serious problem. I don't necessarily think I don't see a solution; it's a matter of getting them to agree to go along with the solution. Asian families are very conservative, very private. Add on top of that a father who thinks he knows best because of his occupation, and a mother who doesn't think anything is wrong, and how do you get anything resolved when there's lack of communication and pretending that everything is ok?

Thanks.


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## Lark

Hello Optical and first things first a huge hug. I am relieved to hear from you and pleased you have managed to continue with your studies despite everything. I confess you have been in my mind and I've wondered how you are.

Before I respond and taking inordinate liberties with our aquantaince I'm going to say - go and get that massage! Book it today and make it a regular event, whenever your pocket can allow it. The back problem will be agravated by the stress. We have a tendency to hurt ourselves in surprising ways when life is difficult, don't fall into that trap, be good to you! You deserve it.

Please bear in mind all comments are 'for what they are worth' and, as ever, if I'm way off or inadvertently cause any offence I only offer my thoughts in support of you and the situation you find yourself in.

In truth you have it sussed, go to family counselling and talk it out with mediation but that avenue is blocked to you since the protaganists refuse for whatever reason. Have you considered pursuing counselling to to assist you in revealing other approaches? Of course it would be much more productive and beneficial if you all went but I can't see the situation changing and you would have an avenue to vent safely and might surprise yourself with what else you already know but can't get to amongst the tension and anxiety that will block a path to other resolutions. It might be worth considering, do you have a student counsellor at university? That would be a good place to start.

Also what I am about to say may or may not be news to you but you do realise that if you don't get some support for yourself at this stage you may well end up in a marriage which repeats areas of your parents and be forced to deal with it later. That's not a pleasant thought I know but I warrant if you delved into your parents backgrounds you would find they both had similar conflicts in their backgrounds, our parents are our major learning source about life and relationships as you know only too well. Of course you are thinking oh no I will choose someone completely different but life has an odd way of bringing us situations which seem mighty familiar. Anyway I think it not a bad idea for you to have a safe place to speak of all this and unload some of this tension and anxiety.

The next thing may or may not appeal to you but clearly this new development about the location of the arguments is intended 'for your good'. Yes I know that doesn't seem to be the case and now it is peripheral and just as vexing. But here is what I see from this, both parents now very conscious of the effect it has on you and deciding to argue out of earshot. We know this hasn't helped at all but one can see their 'logic', such as it is. They need to know that this is not working and I wonder, with your mastery of language (and blissful use of it - I don't know what it's like in America but really the proliferation of text speak hurts the eyes in England) how do you feel about writing them a letter. You can review and edit it to be exactly what you want to say and cover everything you feel, think and observe. They should know for instance that when you enter the house your mood is adversley affected by the atmosphere and how that makes you feel what you think when you try to study etc etc, I'm sure I don't need to elaborate as you have many sound ideas and an expressive style, but a letter would give you chance to go into detail, spare nothing, describe with all the emotion you want just how it is for you and when you are satisfied with it print off two copies, one for each parent.

Where you present it is up to you but I would suggest somewhere social, maybe lunch out or something you all enjoy where your mother can't make a scene (I'm trusting she won't make a scene in public?) You can give any instructions you want, wait until they are sated and smiling then present your letter and allow them to read it. You may even request nothing be said about it until they have given it thought for some time, maybe you would like to fix a time not too far distant for discussion. You may, of course, want an immediate response, the details will be up to you but the delay I suggest is for the letter to really sink in, to give them time to really think and respond rather than react to how you feel and the fact you have been driven to communicate with them this way rather than verbally. This is your chance to write it all, everything, hold nothing back.

What I can say is that the situation will not change without willing participation from both your parents and even then it will take years. Change only happens when we see the benefits of it for ourselves but change is slow, your parents have been acting this way for over 60 years, with the best will in the world it is going to take time but you have to get them onboard first.

Apart from that the only way that seems supportive of your life and well being would be to live seperately and I'm sure that's already occurred to you. You would then be able to limit interaction to a relatively healthy degree for yourself.

You might want to put that in the letter also, that if things don't improve, or you observe no willingness or attempt to consider you then they will lose you on a very real level whilst you become the son in only duty and not in your heart. Don't threaten just clearly state how you see things panning out if you cannot collectively come to a working arrangement.

The rest is just my observation on your posts but I'm going to stick my neck out and say there is nothing psychiatrically wrong with your mother. You answered the concern I had over where and with whom and since this doesn't happen outside close relationships, you, your father, her brothers and parents it clearly is not a disorder. With a disorder there is no question of keeping it under control in the workplace or any specific situation as personality is pervasive. From what you tell us this is striking for that alone.

This is just my take on it but I believe your mother is not ill in any way and has clearly learned this behaviour as a child. It's an unpleasant thing to admit but no matter how old we get, if we don't do something about addressing traits in ourselves when we spot them we will end up using them our whole lives. Whilst your mother's behaviour is at the extreme end of the scale it appears as if this is an inadequate coping mechanism. As you are all too aware, coping mechanisms do not have to be functional or adult for them to continue to be employed throughout life.

That is not to say both your parents wouldn't benefit from psychological help as I understand it in America Possibly the best benefits would come from cognitive behaviour therapy where you parents (and I do mean both) can relearn healthier and more productive methods of interaction and also learn to actually resolve their conflict. 

That does seem to be the issue here, just the one conflict because I do see a pattern and a circular argument.

What I'm hearing are possibly fears of neglect and abandonment from your mother. The repeated remarks about your father seeing and treating your cousin, not leaving the doorway when you said you would take out the rubbish, the guilt trips she induces, the mixed messages. Now even if this doesn't seem to be the case the only way to know for sure is to find out from her which would come out in family counselling.

You say she always gets what she wants. I don't think she does or she wouldn't continue with this. But what does she really want, that is the question.

That's why I spoke of unmet needs since it sounded so desperately like the behaviour of people driven to get their emotional needs met. We have basic needs which must be filled or we feel like we are dying. The tantrums, threats, excessive behaviour appears to be old patterns on a loop attempting to get what she wants and since it is an awful way to get our needs met since no one feels like giving us emotional support when we are crabby or mean she is destined never to get what she needs.

Also you father is not blameless in this. Just because your mother is making the most noise and demanding the most attention you father is complicit in this too. And, of course, he is quite wrong about knowing better than a psychologist since he is not qualified in that area but in medicine so that is just stubborn.

I am in England and feel I can empathise with the reserve and privacy you mention in proud Asian families since I feel it an area we do share culturally - I mean if you have never tried to get past the English stiff upper lip you have no idea how hard it is - ha, ha. But it's a real lesson in loss of communication and communication is impossible when only one person is willing to do it.


For all I know I am way off with all of this but these are my impressions from reading all your posts and I have been back over them today to be sure. Though, having said that it is hard at such a distance and without personal knowledge for anyone to make any absolute statements.

There is one other thing you might try, though on it's own it's value will be diminished without complicity of your parents in counselling, but would your father be open to treating your mother with homeopathic medicine? You can research the remedies yourself and find the one most fitting for your mother. These can have powerful emotional effects if you find the right remedy and that can be difficult without a qualified homeopath but it may pacify your mother to the point you can reason and speak to her about her behaviour and it's inappropriateness.

I think your mother is already aware of the inappropriateness of her outbursts, her apology to you when she knew it had affected you trying to study points to self awareness. She may well hate the way she acts but doesn't know how else to state her concerns/fears/needs. It just seems like it all points to her feeling she can't get the attention and concern she feels she needs since there is obviously nothing to be cross about. Sometimes we try to discern what someone else needs and think we are doing all we possibly can, e.g. hoovering, washing up etc but maybe these aren't the areas of note just the smokescreen. If washing up and tidyness aren't important to you then you will not feel cared for if someone does it, if you don't care if your husband showers in your own bathroom it's unlikely to seem a nice thing to do to find out he is loathe to wake you and why is he loathe to wake her, is it a nice gesture or is it to extend the hour he doesn't have to deal with it? And I just note his manner of dealing with it is feeding the problem not confronting it. Their are two people in that marriage, just because one is louder and more disruptive makes the other no less responsible.

And remember, you are the child, they should be taking note of how this is affecting you not driving you to take the mature route and most of the responsibility for trying to sort it out.

I don't know if any of this is helpful but these are just my thoughts so take anything you find useful and disregard the rest.

As ever my best wishes to you and continued desire for your well being. Now first thing go and call the masseusse!!!

Big hug sweetie,
Lark


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## 0ptical

Thank you all for posting advice, and I apologize for seemingly only responding when things are "bad" in my household. I want to clarify that that is not the situation. The fact is, is that I'm currently trying to play the "catch-up" game with my studies for my first exam on May 15, while trying to deal with the still continuous onslaught of bickering with my parents.

For all the time and effort spent in responding, I will definitely read any advice given. Please forgive the lack of responses though.

EDIT: I hope I do not convey the attitude that the advice does not warrant a response, that is simply not the case.


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## Blanca

wow optical, my mother in law sounds just like your mom. and my H is asian. wonder if there is a correlation. maybe not. 

anyway, my H is also obsessed with is mom. unfortunately (or fortunately, which ever way you want to look at it) his dad is out of the picture. His mom is nuts and he's obsessed with getting her to see it his way; obsessed with trying to change her.

I'll tell you what i tell my H; one of these days you're going to have to cut the umbilical cord. Write a letter to your mom and dad. when you are ready to let go of their problems, burn it. 

Their problems are masking your problems. You have a lot of emotional problems under the surface, but by being so emotionally enmeshed with your parents you can only see their problems. You need to deal with what happened to you as a child and realize you are no longer the victim. you're an adult now. stay in the drama, or not. its now your choice. but if you cant let go of it, you will find relationships very difficult.


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## Lark

Big hug Optical. Sweetie please be assured everyone understands things aren't 'bad' all the time. Everyone understands family life and all have experience in family backgrounds and, whilst the degree differs as does individual tolerance well, to paraphrase Chekov, all dysfunctional families are similar to differing degrees and, sadly, there are very many dysfunctional families.

Your education is important and it's good you are finding the motivation to pursue that so just concentrate on you and getting your degree for now and pop back when and if you feel the need.

Remember sweetie, no one needs help when things are going well but it's so strong of you to reach out when you need to and know others do want to help if they can.

Now shoo and do well in your exam. Seriously though what you take from the replies or if you decide not to return to the thread is immaterial so long as you keep your own equilibrium (but so nice to find politeness).

Big hug sweetie and all the best for May 15th.


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## 0ptical

So here I am sitting back nearly six months to the day when I first posted, and nothing has changed. I am thankful to all those that have responded with their suggestions, from seeking counselling myself, to writing a letter I have tried many of them. Unfortunately, the situation has not changed at all. I sit here typing as my mother screams away at my father because I don’t know what else I can do.

After writing a letter to both parents mid-April, my mother merely ripped it up and screamed in anger that she will kill herself and proceeded to kick and scream and hit her head against the wall, having to be restrained by my father again. Even booking a family therapy session on my own and informing them that I would like us to attend got brushed off.

It’s almost as if even though they are consciously aware of their actions and the problems it is causing in the family, they continue. My mother especially. The latest argument (aside from the present time), found itself consuming four days from May 16 – 19. I had two exams on June 2 and June 4 respectively, and it didn’t matter to them. My mother arguing, screaming, hitting and throwing things till 7am in the morning even after the police visited our house for domestic disturbance. This continued for four days including having my mom recklessly taking the car out and driving around the city. I really don’t know what to do anymore; going to counselling myself has proved useless. Having them seek therapy seems impossible; neither is receptive to the idea. Attempting to reason with either parent still has no effect, it is met every time with the stark blunt words that I am the son, and that I should not be telling them how to behave. Telling my mother how her anger, explosions, and temper tantrums make me feel only makes her angry. Asking my father to seek help for the family only amuses him, making the suggestion that he is the best one to treat the situation. I emailed my uncle regarding this to no avail. I want him to talk to his sister, but he is too busy working to acknowledge it almost.

Lark, I am always afraid of what you suggested that my marriage will repeat itself and am so deliberately aware that it might happen. I do not want my relationship to turn out like my parents, at all. I struggle to make every action, every decision to consciously not behave in that way. I aim to behave in a manner that is logical and humble to those around me, but you are right, there is a constant fear of potentially having my marriage turns out like my parents. It is regrettable that the suggestion of homeopathic treatment will never be attempted. My father practising Western medicine for 30+ years does not believe in homeopathic treatment including, but not limited to, Chinese herbal treatment, acupuncture, even psychoanalysis. What does she really want Lark? I don’t know, I’ve asked that question to her, and she can’t or doesn’t want to answer it.

Everything that has been done, suggested to them, attempts to change seems to have fallen on deaf ears. There seems to be no end in sight. Is it really going to continue till life’s end?


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## Lark

Hello Optical, a big hug to you. I am delighted to hear from you as you have been much in my thoughts but sorry it is under such circumstances.

Firstly, how did your exams go? You have unusual circumstances to overcome which surround your studies but I know you will have put in tremendous effort. I understand the results aren't out yet but hope you felt they went well.

Sweetheart, first let me reassure you about a comment which I did not intend to cause more pain. We all repeat family relationships in intimate relationships to some extent but the problems only arise with lack of awareness and willingness to address them. I did not mean it to sound as if it was a cut and dried case of you repeating a pattern, I am sure with the level of awareness you have you will not be repeating your parents mistakes at all when you marry, but my remark was more to intimate the need for awareness when choosing a life mate. That you have this I have no doubt so please understand the limits of the written word in that inflection and meaning can sometimes be conveyed differently to intention.

Having said that we all come up against familiar patterns in close relationships and it provides an opportunity to deal with them differently when that happens.

My main worry is how this current and ongoing situation will affect you long term but you are mature and aware so I believe you will be able to find a way to deal with this if you find you are having problems in the future as a result of this.

Sweetie, what I am about to say to you is no easier for me to write than it will be to hear but it needs to be said. The situation will not change.

Harsh as this is it is better to be honest than pretend there is a solution because then you can begin to regroup and approach the situation from another angle, namely one in which you are the main player.

The fact of the matter is even when we want to change aspects of ourselves (and change only occurs when we each reach a crisis point in ourselves) that change can be painfully slow. When we have spent years behaving in one way even the best will in the world struggles to keep that change once we have decided. Often it is one step forward and two steps back but because we ourselves desire it the effort is worth it.

In this case you have two people who are determined to do things their way no matter what to the detriment of the environment you have to live in and all the repercusive effects that go along with it.

In truth you have done/thought of/suggested everything there is to be done but without their co-operation you cannot make any progress.

You should be very proud of yourself for showing such maturity and ability to realise solutions but you cannot make them see sense and therefore you have reached an impasse. This is in no way a fault on your part and I am most impressed by all your efforts. Indeed, if they only realised when insisting you are the son and they the parents that the roles have quite clearly been reversed and that you being the son they have a responsibility to you and your well being which they are brutally brushing aside.

Sweetheart, the time has come to focus on you and how best to make life as comfortable as possible for yourself. It won't be easy as you have a fine sense of responsibility but now you must look to yourself. Your parents are behaving in a very selfish way and now you must do the same thing.

Hard as this is there is no other way to approach it now. For the sake of your sanity, your emotional well being and your education you will have to find a way forward for yourself without further attempt to solve this. It will NOT change. That seems brutal but better the truth than false hope.

I am so sorry none of the suggesions met with openness from your parents, I do understand, I really do. But now it's time for YOU!

You matter and so does your health and education. You need now to apply your fine mind to how best to save yourself and create a harmonious environment for yourself.

You have gone beyond the role of dutiful son in your willingness to address this but they are acting like the children here and you must leave them to it.

I make no suggestions regarding this as you best know your own options and possibilities and I have no doubt you are more than capable of finding a solution.

I wish you much success in this and in life and know you will create a good and peaceful life for yourself, when difficulties do occur (as they must in all lives) I have every confidence you will know how to approach them.

I wish I could tell you something different but this is how it is and I would wish that you, unlike so many of us, did not waste your energy on a situation which finds no co-operation from others.

I send a warm hug and many, many best wishes to you along with my unseen support for you.

I am here, as are others on this board, should you want to talk, vent or air your feelings on this.

Best wishes always sweetie,
Lark


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## 0ptical

Thank you for your continued support and words Lark. I don't know what else to post here any longer. The arguments continue, and you're right, there probably is no end in sight.

Only last night I had to physically restrain my mother because she was hitting her head against the wall and corners of furniture. I have bruises on my clavicle, cuts on my hand from her nails trying to make me let go of her, and bruise on my leg from her flailing. She has no remorse for her behaviour and blamed the bruises on cuts because I restrained her, if I didn't, I wouldn't have gotten hurt. 

I wish my life would begin outside of this household, that is the only way I feel I can really save my sanity and emotional well being. As unethical and deranged as it sounds, I agree with an article written in the Canadian magazine Macleans titled, "_Why parental death for adults is the new psychic Freedom 55_". Basically stating that parental death is like a catharsis for many people these days. Is it unfortunate and sad that I hold such a view? I don't know anymore ... 

Anyways, I really have nothing to add except the same old. I thank the members of the board for your affection and time, especially Lark. Perhaps when (if) I graduate law school this year, we can meet during my convocation in the UK. I in fact attend law school through correspondence with the University of London External Programme. Thanks again.


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## Lark

Hello sweetie and a very big hug.

It is good to hear from you even though you are at your wits end.

I don't know what else to suggest. The fact is you came to the board with very sound and well thought out solutions but you are the only one being an adult in this situation.

I am sorry to say this is not uncommon, only in films do people all co-operate to a mutually benefitial end and, as you have found out all too painfully, life does not always reflect art. Sad to say there are many people in the world who are one half of an unresoved situation which is not of their choice. If people are not prepared to meet us half way we have nowhere to go.

You have tried as many options as you could and none of this is any fault of yours at all. Excuse me but I can't help but say it, I think your parents are not showing you the respect, love and support you need.

Sweetheart, I read the article you refer to and it is very insightful, reflectling many observations I've had for some years. There are also interesting observations made by a woman called Alice Miller in her books which you may have heard of. People are just begining to speak out on this subject as it really is such a taboo. But whilst taboos stay in place much damage is done emotionally.

It saddens me you feel this way though, that life to start outside your environment but I do really know what you mean.

Is there any way at all you can free yourself from this continuing saga by finding somewhere of your own to live? I'm sure you have thought of all those things though.

All I can say is well done for being the mature one, the one who wants resolution. You tried and that's quite something. I'm sorry it remains as it is.

It would be delightful to meet with you when you graduate from university next year, keep me up to date on your plans and all the very best for the rest of your course.

Biggest hug ever sweetie, hang in there!

'Nothing is either so good or so bad that it cannot reverse itself with a turn of fortunes wheel and at a moment's notice'.


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## preso

0ptical said:


> -----------------------------------
> 
> That is the end of my discussion regarding the problems in our household. It is causing me great anxiety, and depression. I don't know when the next argument will ever erupt, and I cannot even go out and enjoy myself with my friends or girlfriend without feeling anxiety about whether I will come home to another argument or if I will return home to find a corpse.
> 
> Thank you in advance for any possible advice.



My gosh, your 28 years old and still live at home?
Time you should move out, which may help your parents
decide what to do in their marriage without an adult child living in the household.
You should get on with your own life and out of their home.


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## preso

Blanca said:


> one of these days you're going to have to cut the umbilical cord. Write a letter to your mom and dad. when you are ready to let go of their problems, burn it.
> 
> Their problems are masking your problems. You have a lot of emotional problems under the surface, but by being so emotionally enmeshed with your parents you can only see their problems. You need to deal with what happened to you as a child and realize you are no longer the victim. you're an adult now. stay in the drama, or not. its now your choice. but if you cant let go of it, you will find relationships very difficult.



so true blanca:iagree:


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## Leahdorus

I agree, but they are Asian, and it's part of their culture that the kids look after the parents. In this case, it seems he hasn't moved out of their home at all yet, but I believe that it's a cultural thing that is keeping him there out of duty and as part of "what he's supposed to do." But it sure isn't healthy, living in that atmosphere.


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## swedish

0ptical said:


> Only last night I had to physically restrain my mother because she was hitting her head against the wall and corners of furniture.


I can't help but wonder, if she is the only one in the home, would she explode in this way? If there is no attention to be got, what would be her purpose? 

You have made an earnest attempt to help this situation, but in the end if neither your mom or dad are receptive to getting help, I don't see anything changing. 

I also believe you should break away for a while, maybe even go as far as no contact with your mother since she refuses any help for her violent outbursts & limit contact with your father to anything other than discussing her outbursts.

Your father is choosing to go along as is, but you do not have to.


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