# Do you love your wife more than sex?



## DCMarriageCounselor (Aug 30, 2007)

Can you tell the difference between what your wife does to make you happy and what satisfies you about your relationship to your wife? 

I am doing some writing about this topic, from a guy's perspective, and wonder if anyone would be willing to share any stories about how you learned to value your wife as a whole person and not just for what she can do for you. I talk to a lot of women who feel that the affection and love she gets is conditional on what she does for him. Sex is one of those areas this comes up frequently. How did you break this mold? 

Was there an event, a close call with death, disability or divorce, that made you see her differently? What if tomorrow your wife became physically disabled and could not have sex? 

Thanks for your help and I will ask permission before excerpting any stories.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Do I like driving more than cars? 

Hmmm...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Over the years I've learned to value her for who she really is,
not just because of sex, or how she pleases me.
I don't know how it happened, but it did. 

Every morning before I wake her I take a good look at her on the bed, tangled between the covers. I just feel good inside, and say to myself _she's my beautiful wife._

I don't think in terms of what she could do for me, yes I have needs, but she tries her best to fulfil them, and I truly appreciate that. 
She tries her BEST.
I think of how can I make her happy. I know her dreams and ambitions,I want to help her fulfil them. I know her fears , and try to protect her. I know her short comings and I try to work with her on them,so that we could both experience personal growth.

I have learned something though.
A lot of things we may consider " shortcomings " of " faults " in our spouses are actually idiosyncrasies. If we look closely, we would be able to tell the difference , avoid conflict and build greater understanding and appreciation.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

There was no mold to break. You say that as if all men inherently feel that way. 

I'm sorry but that thought process is totally foreign to me and I really don't understand how people can live with themselves like that.

In general I value people in terms of how I see them treat others. I certainly value my wife that way at the very least. We stumble over each other to do for the other. Always have 35 years now. Even when times were tough in those early years that was still our way. Indeed it may be what stopped us from flying apart as there were some very hard times.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

I feel like my lack of sex in my marriage has kept it from being all it could be. I told my wife that also. When my wife refuses to be unselfish in her sexual giving it makes it hard for me to be unselfish in different areas. Now in my situation withholding sex is my biggest problem, in some other marriages it might be something besides sex, but when one spouse is not meeting the other spouses needs I think it keeps both spouses from getting the other's best. So I believe that the lack of sex in my marriage has restricted the amount of love that I have for my wife.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Yes, I have already told my wife that I would love her without sex.......BUT I found I am now in a state of mourning for my lover of so many years that now seems to be gone....


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## SA's husband (Apr 9, 2012)

DCMarriageCounselor said:


> Can you tell the difference between what your wife does to make you happy and what satisfies you about your relationship to your wife?
> 
> I am doing some writing about this topic, from a guy's perspective, and wonder if anyone would be willing to share any stories about how you learned to value your wife as a whole person and not just for what she can do for you. I talk to a lot of women who feel that the affection and love she gets is conditional on what she does for him. Sex is one of those areas this comes up frequently. How did you break this mold?
> 
> Was there an event, a close call with death, disability or divorce, that made you see her differently? What if tomorrow your wife became physically disabled and could not have sex?


Not sure why I am like this but my wifes heart has always been more important than sex. If she could not have sex I would at least still have her, to spend time with and her bubbly personallity, and still have all good memories together.

Whereas if something would happen to her all that I would have are memories. I have always thought what if something happens and it makes me appreciate her more, while she is still around. 

She could never be replaced, have to end this, makes me think too much, makes me emotional.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

My wife yields to sex maybe once every month or two. That'd be about 6-8 times per year. If I feel like really flattering myself, I'll say each episode is one hour, so that's a maximum of 8 hours per year devoted to having sex with my wife. There are 365 days per year, 24 hours per day. Do the math. Obviously, I must value something far more than sex or I'd have been gone years ago! I hear this "that's all you care about" protest and it doesn't pass the logic test for me. Why would any sane individual who cared mostly about sex stay in a sexless marriage? Now, I suspect the average husband spends the greatest portion of his waking hours working to support his wife and family. It would be far easier to make the case that the withholding wife values his earning ability nearly to the exclusion of all other considerations.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

DCMarriageCounselor said:


> Can you tell the difference between what your wife does to make you happy and what satisfies you about your relationship to your wife?
> 
> I am doing some writing about this topic, from a guy's perspective, and wonder if anyone would be willing to share any stories about how you learned to value your wife as a whole person and not just for what she can do for you. I talk to a lot of women who feel that the affection and love she gets is conditional on what she does for him. Sex is one of those areas this comes up frequently. How did you break this mold?
> 
> ...


How about a little introspection before you write anything. I find your preface to this question offensive. A healthy man in a relationship does not see his partner as "just what she can do for him". Sexual expression is a part of the commitment of marriage. it is not a quid pro quo for affection or "love". Healthy members in a dyad meet each other's needs. The man who tries to win sexual activity by giving affection, attention, or acts of service in an unspoken contract for sex is the other half of this faulty concept.

However, to expect a husband or wife to feel affectionate when their partner is repeatedly neglecting their needs is foolish. 

I have no stories for you and I can't see me ever having any. Life is too short and sexual expression too important in my view to an intimate relationship to accept a sexless life. And even a bedridden person can have meaningful sexual expression


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I will speak for the "good guys" out there - we are legion. 

We love our wife's traits, her skills and her knowledge. This is what makes her - unique. We love those things separately from what she does for us. 

For me specifically. 
Traits: 
- Smart
- Great Mom
- Determined
- Organized
- Playful
- Adventurous
- Sense of humor
- Athletic
- High standards
- Painfully blunt
- Quick learner
- Responsible with money
- Affectionate

Skills:
- Great in bed
- Great at board and word games
- Good at racquet sports
- Incredible masseuse
- long list ....

Knowledge:
- Who knew there were so many different color names
- Long list....

_____________________
Totally separate from what I love about who she is, is the matter of how she treats ME. And that is a separate and distinct matter. Just as it makes me happy to do the things that make her:
- Feel loved and valued AND
- To avoid doing things that cause her to feel unloved and/or bad

She knows the same for me. 

This is a happy marriage. That means most of the time it is all about her. Completely fine with that. 

Sex is WAY more important to me than to her. And that is ok too - because she MAKES it a priority because it matters to me. 

If she wasn't willing/glad to make it ALL about me, a few times a week, that would not be ok with me. 

And if she ever said to me "All you care about is sex" I would simply laugh at her as that is so obviously not the case.

And then I would ask her a pretty obvious question: Why is it you don't like having sex with me?

Women generally make that statement when their desire wanes and they don't want to have sex.

When a man is with a woman who loves him, you don't hear him say "All you care about is my money, unless he is suddenly having financial trouble". 

Same concept in reverse.



DCMarriageCounselor said:


> Can you tell the difference between what your wife does to make you happy and what satisfies you about your relationship to your wife?
> 
> I am doing some writing about this topic, from a guy's perspective, and wonder if anyone would be willing to share any stories about how you learned to value your wife as a whole person and not just for what she can do for you. I talk to a lot of women who feel that the affection and love she gets is conditional on what she does for him. Sex is one of those areas this comes up frequently. How did you break this mold?
> 
> ...





DCMarriageCounselor said:


> Can you tell the difference between what your wife does to make you happy and what satisfies you about your relationship to your wife?
> 
> I am doing some writing about this topic, from a guy's perspective, and wonder if anyone would be willing to share any stories about how you learned to value your wife as a whole person and not just for what she can do for you. I talk to a lot of women who feel that the affection and love she gets is conditional on what she does for him. Sex is one of those areas this comes up frequently. How did you break this mold?
> 
> ...


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

SA's husband said:


> Not sure why I am like this but my wifes heart has always been more important than sex. If she could not have sex I would at least still have her, to spend time with and her bubbly personallity, and still have all good memories together.
> 
> Whereas if something would happen to her all that I would have are memories. I have always thought what if something happens and it makes me appreciate her more, while she is still around.
> 
> She could never be replaced, have to end this, makes me think too much, makes me emotional.



The amazing parallel universe strikes again. Good to see you post Bro I could not have said it better. So are you my older brother or my younger.........No wait don't answer that; I will You are the older!

Tell SA her sister says Hi! LOL!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Stonewall said:


> The amazing parallel universe strikes again. Good to see you post Bro I could not have said it better. So are you my older brother or my younger.........No wait don't answer that; I will You are the older!
> 
> Tell SA her sister says Hi! LOL!


Younger Stonewall.... lets not push it now!! He'll be 49 next month.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Note to self: do not suggest DCMarriageCounseler guy to any friends.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaharthur said:


> Note to self: do not suggest DCMarriageCounseler guy to any friends.


Not sure why he has a special link given for Gay counseling...possibly just showing all aspects of his practice....are we the Boy scouts now??

The OP is not a Homosexual... I just took the time to read his biography on one of those links above with a few clicks......it states ...."*I share the the joys and challenges of marriage, parenting, and growing a garden with my wife of eleven years.*"


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Man say we hold sex for ransom, apparently man holds affection and love ransom.

Go figure
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

That is a loaded way of asking that question. "Do you love your wife more than sex" suggests an either-or situation. If I really love and appreciate her, then sex should not be a big deal. If the lack of sex is inhibiting our marriage then I have failed to appreciate her for herself.

If you look around (sometimes here, but more so on other sites) you will see LD people complaining about sexual pressure (and the supporters of such people) using precisely this argument when criticizing the drive of the HD spouse.

Personally, I could acknowledge my wife's positive qualities when she was refusing to meet my need. But it did not make me feel better about her. It was not possible for me to feel positive about our relationship while she was ignoring my basic needs.

I'm neither a blindly loyal puppu nor a child wondering what he did to make Mommy mad. I don't feel a cultural or religious responsibility to marry. I come expecting to have my needs - which are her responsibility - met and ready to meet her needs in return. If she won't meet my need I'm better off alone.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

homebuilder said:


> I feel like my lack of sex in my marriage has kept it from being all it could be. I told my wife that also. When my wife refuses to be unselfish in her sexual giving it makes it hard for me to be unselfish in different areas. Now in my situation withholding sex is my biggest problem, in some other marriages it might be something besides sex, but when one spouse is not meeting the other spouses needs I think it keeps both spouses from getting the other's best. So I believe that the lack of sex in my marriage has restricted the amount of love that I have for my wife.


Absolutely. Also, this situation tends to deteriorate over time rather than leveling off. You ability to accomplish and succeed declines because your need is not met (not just sexually - it impacts many areas of your life). She does not understand that this is an involuntary reaction, resents the reduced attention, and cuts back even further. Rinse and repeat.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Keith,
I read your question again. You have accepted a very skewed frame for this question. Let me make a few suggestions. 

Ultimately this is a question about unconditional love. So the first question should be to the person asking it: Do YOU love your partner unconditionally? And what does that really mean. Does that mean you continue feeling the same level of love for them or does it mean you actually continue to treat them in the same loving manner that you did during the honeymoon phase? 

Get clarity on what they mean by conditional love. Does this mean the HD partner expects sex at a very high frequency and starts to behave in a less loving manner as soon as there is any deviation from that? 

Or does this mean that they have somehow evolved over time to very mismatched desire levels and a mid-point compromise is not ok with the HD spouse. FYI: I have seen midpoint defined in a rather comical manner on this site by LD folks. For example:
LD: I want it once a month, my HD partner wants it every day, maybe we should compromise on two times a month. (this from a LD person in their late thirties). 

Or is this a case of an LD spouse who feels VERY strongly that they should not have to do anything they don't FEEL like doing?

I would describe the approach below as an exercise intended to increase empathy and understanding. It can be done with either gender. Lets start with the folks who prompted this question. 

Have each of the LD patients list their top two love languages whatever those are. 

And then ask them how they have reacted/would react if their HD partners:
- Cut way back on those things and
- Despite the fact they told their HD spouse that they were VERY unhappy about the situation nothing changed

Just want to know how they felt and then what they have actually DONE in those situations. This is a case where the HD partner did it, and knew the LD partner was upset and made no effort to change it. 

The real question is this: Was the LD partner able to love unconditionally when their top needs were not met, and their partner was not even making a good faith effort to meet those needs. 

I would ask it as: Did you continue to meet your HD partners top needs despite the fact they had deprioritized you and yours? How long did you do that for?




DCMarriageCounselor said:


> Can you tell the difference between what your wife does to make you happy and what satisfies you about your relationship to your wife?
> 
> I am doing some writing about this topic, from a guy's perspective, and wonder if anyone would be willing to share any stories about how you learned to value your wife as a whole person and not just for what she can do for you. I talk to a lot of women who feel that the affection and love she gets is conditional on what she does for him. Sex is one of those areas this comes up frequently. How did you break this mold?
> 
> ...


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## DCMarriageCounselor (Aug 30, 2007)

Wow, some great posts here! Appreciate the honesty. 

Over the weekend I thought I would add the link in my sig to the site we have dedicated to two members of my counseling practice that do specialize in helping GLBT folks. I was naive to think this wouldn't attract some trolling....so I just took it down. Probably my mistake to not share more personally before asking personal questions as well. 

I've experienced variations of what a lot of people mentioned here at various times during my twelve years with my wife. Sometimes it's harder to look beyond my unconscious that wants to just see her as an extension of myself. We get into all sorts of train wrecks when that happens and she isn't a willing partner with my unconscious. Other times--and I think this is more at the core of our relationship--we just have this bedrock knowing that we have and always will love each other unconditionally.


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## DCMarriageCounselor (Aug 30, 2007)

DTO said:


> That is a loaded way of asking that question. "Do you love your wife more than sex" suggests an either-or situation.


DTO and others who have correctly observed that there is a heavy slant to the frame of the question I am asking. Like I mentioned, I am doing some writing for publication and this is what gets the eyeballs to the screen and comments going. I just want to be clear that the way I'm asking the question doesn't reflect my personal values but I can see how some have read into it a bit more that way.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Michie said:


> Man say we hold sex for ransom, apparently man holds affection and love ransom.
> 
> Go figure


There is no mystery here. Men are wired to be doers and givers. If a woman haves, holds, and cherishes her husband in the way he desires, she will do the same for him.

If a woman is not meeting her man's sexual need, she is not likely to get hers met over the long term either. His ability to provide and give back are lessened. This is not a choice. Let's analogize this to a bank account. Loving him the way he wants are deposits to his emotional account. The stress of going to work, being (generally) the primary breadwinner, chores around the house, devoting time to your needs, and the separation from family and friends necessary to do the above are withdrawals from his emotional account. If the withdrawals outweigh the deposits, eventually the account runs dry.

The important distinction here is that the man does just not stop when you are not meeting his need (whereas once the bank account hits zero, your checks bounce). He, being wired to be a doer / giver, will suck it up and continue to provide. But, this provision will be less in quality and quantity until there is some blow-up (he gets fed-up of grinding or you get sick of the reduced productivity).

Honestly, given that guys are wired to be providers and are very forgiving of women having bad days or not putting forth the same effort, this is not a "chicken or egg" issue as you imply. Generally, the sex stops and then after some while the love and affection stop.

What happens after that is up to the woman. Generally, IMO it is best just to admit she has come up short and will do better in the future (and mean it - no empty promises). If you simply cannot do more, explain this to him and ask for forbearance while you figure out how to even things out.

I know it's innately satisfying to say "I should come first", "sex should not matter that much", or "what about the commitment". But I, as a relatively HD guy, can tell you that (passing value on another's needs rather than ranking them equal to your own) is a recipe for relationship disaster.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DCMarriageCounselor said:


> DTO and others who have correctly observed that there is a heavy slant to the frame of the question I am asking. Like I mentioned, I am doing some writing for publication and this is what gets the eyeballs to the screen and comments going. I just want to be clear that the way I'm asking the question doesn't reflect my personal values but I can see how some have read into it a bit more that way.


Glad you cleared that up. It occurred to me as I was putting down the answer, but did not bother to write that disclaimer.

Seriously though, we TAMers are usually up for a poll. Maybe try that as a way to generate interest and get responses? You don't have to go all Survey Monkey on us - just a simple question, explanation, and invite comments.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

To answer the question simply,

Sex with my wife>Sex with just about anybody>My wife without any sex>Chained for eternity down in the deepest vault of Tartarus


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## DCMarriageCounselor (Aug 30, 2007)

DTO said:


> Seriously though, we TAMers are usually up for a poll. Maybe try that as a way to generate interest and get responses? You don't have to go all Survey Monkey on us - just a simple question, explanation, and invite comments.


Thanks for the pole suggestion! Although the subjective responses are pretty awesome. A lot of cool people here. I've known that since I've been around here for years but trying to interact more now instead of just posting in the professional articles thread. Have to admit a lot of us therapists do a lot more talking than listening than we'd like to admit! This is definitely one of the most vibrant forum for mental health related stuff I've seen.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

DTO said:


> There is no mystery here. Men are wired to be doers and givers.


I need to take mine back for a tune-up, then. his wires got crossed somewhere...:lol:


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

I stopped having marriage problems when I stopped viewing my relationship as unconditional. It was like hitting a light switch.

What if my wife became disabled? Well, what if I became afflicted with throat cancer, and I couldn't talk to her like before or compliment her like before? What if my voice worked just fine, but I just never took the time to talk to and compliment my wife, according to her, her two biggest needs, and lived egotistically myself, claiming that to talk to her when I wasn't in the mood is a cruel thing to ask of me (despite the fact that that's why she married me)?

What if a wife was a man's dream wife, especially sexually, and then became disabled? What if she was always physically fine, but she chose never to have sex with her husband, claiming that to have sex when not in the mood herself is a selfish and cruel thing to ask (despite the fact that a man forsakes sex with other women following the union of marriage)?

The argument can be easily separated into two distinct scenarios... Most sexual relationship problems with couples do not include any kind of disability. They do include however selfish women (and some men too of course). Moreover, a selfish spouse isn't exactly the most deserving candidate of love, whole, unconditionally, and/or otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Michael A. Brown (Oct 16, 2012)

Yes I do. I do love my wife more than sex because sex is not only one thing that makes me happy but the love that I gained from my wife.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

This question is like "When did you stop beating your wife?"

What you should teach your wife clients that becuase your husband loves you, the whole person, this is why he wants to express it sexually.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Up until recently, I had expressed my unconditional love for my wife.
That was until I got tired of beating my head against the wall, trying to figure out why the woman I have been devoted and committed to, doesn't have any sexual attraction toward me and why she doesn't have any interest in making me happy?
I no longer have unconditional love for her, as I realize her's is not unconditional for me...if it were, I would not be on this forum right now.
Now, she must decide how much she really loves me, as I'm not going to accept half-assed love any longer.
Her lack of devotion to our marriage has dwindled my interests in it as well. Marriage is supposed to be mutual, but currently don't feel that it is.
I'm still trying to work on her, but she isn't making much effort.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Not sure why he has a special link given for Gay counseling...possibly just showing all aspects of his practice....are we the Boy scouts now??
> 
> The OP is not a Homosexual... I just took the time to read his biography on one of those links above with a few clicks......it states ...."*I share the the joys and challenges of marriage, parenting, and growing a garden with my wife of eleven years.*"


I don't give a hoot about the OP's counseling gays and lesbians nor do I care about his sexual preference one way or the other. My comment was based on the shallow nature of the question he posed. Oh, and probably also by his obvious use of the forum for marketing.

But that's just one guy's opinion, nothing more.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

For all you fans of "unconditional love", if your mate had told you up-front that he/she had zero desire for you and zero intention of ever having sex with you or that he or she intended to do so only halfheartedly once or twice annually, and you were convinced they were being truthful, would you have still proceeded with the wedding?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Would "unconditional love" also mean I can beat my wife daily or be a serial adulterer or child molester and she will still continue to be my wife? EVERYONE has limits to the conduct they are willing to tolerate. I have near limitless patience, but not limitless.


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## DCMarriageCounselor (Aug 30, 2007)

unbelievable said:


> For all you fans of "unconditional love", if your mate had told you up-front that he/she had zero desire for you and zero intention of ever having sex with you or that he or she intended to do so only halfheartedly once or twice annually, and you were convinced they were being truthful, would you have still proceeded with the wedding?


This hits something here for me. What amount of living with something I don't want/like can I tolerate and still give myself to the relationship? Maybe some people don't need to think too much about this question because it doesn't feel too much like a burden at the moment. I have definitely gone through periods where my wife's otherness is easy to love and other times when it's really painful and lonely. I've just talked to a lot of people (maybe its only these folks willing to pay for private therapy that are in this position) who wake up and they are shocked that they are living with a person who doesn't share their value. That's the context of the question...seeing so many who are in denial that this could happen. Maybe they need to read on this forum more too since it seems like lots of mature marriages and relationships .


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## DCMarriageCounselor (Aug 30, 2007)

jaharthur said:


> My comment was based on the shallow nature of the question he posed. Oh, and probably also by his obvious use of the forum for marketing.


If by shallow you mean trying to get responses from others and not sharing a personal problem I have...guilty as charged. I'm making some changes in how I practice. Trying to engage more in the conversations people are having about marriage and get out of the operating room a little bit. I've been taught and trained to use some complicated models of the psyche and systems principles within marriage but after a while it is nice to come up for air and just listen to what people are saying and not already have an idea about how to address the problem. I do think that is a bit different than just posting for marketing but I also think I'd be silly to hide who I am in a marriage forum and not let people use some of the resources I have.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

The only person I love right now, and ever will, unconditionally is my son. He did not choose to come into this world but was exacted into it against a will that he would possess later. Supposing I failed tremendously as a parent or he as a son and he became a criminal, I might be the one to drag him to the police station myself but I would still love him deeply and lament the failure eternally. 

My wife, no... And that's what makes marriage so beautiful. The beautiful garden bed of flowers is beautiful not because it stands immortal and defiant to the world, immune to the environment. The garden bed is beautiful because it withers so easily on its own but stands due to the unceasing vigilance and work of its caretaker, watered and tended daily. That is why we stand in awe of them, and the same principle applies to the conditional aspect of marriage. There are so many conditions that must be met for it to work, whosoever are the two meeting them have a garden that transfixes indeed since the garden will not grow unconditionally. This stigma of "conditional love" today is bringing ruin to many marriages, creating lazy men and frigid women, each unhappy with other and with themselves, each the caretaker of a dead garden.

I opened my eyes to the facade of unconditional love in marriage a while back, and I encourage others to do the same. Real life doesn't work that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

SA's husband said:


> Not sure why I am like this but my wifes heart has always been more important than sex. If she could not have sex I would at least still have her, to spend time with and her bubbly personallity, and still have all good memories together.
> 
> Whereas if something would happen to her all that I would have are memories. I have always thought what if something happens and it makes me appreciate her more, while she is still around.
> 
> She could never be replaced, have to end this, makes me think too much, makes me emotional.


Well, here is my take...... My husbands words above ^^ Love him for that !  I've always had that sense... even when he wanted *more* from me







, he never pushed, he never complained, in fact he treated me so damn good I had no idea he was even suffering ... (I could SMACK HIM for this looking back!)..... he does appear the UNconditional Lover type...I've seen it lived. 

But ME....NEVER !! 

I even did a thread on it > >>

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ve-unconditional-love-what-does-mean-you.html

I would never have the patience to stay in a marriage where my emotional & sexual needs are not being fulfilled...I'd grow restless, angry, resentful, grouchy, noone would be able to stand me likely...kinda like that book entitled....."If Mama ain't happy, Ain't nobody happy". 

Now Granted, I am a huge GIVER, I am passionate and I adore my man, I hold nothing from him...... but that would all dry to a crumb if I wasn't getting something back. Absolutely, I can be easily reasoned with, but a stubborn lazy ungiving mule of a spouse...I would be no enabler to their desires in any way! 

I don't really feel this makes one Selfish...Some selfishness is needed in any healthy "give & take" relationship...otherwise we give in to co-dependency and all unhealthy unbalanced behaviors that cause resentments, hurt & internal pain. 

I also feel it would be very difficult/ heart wrenching to be thrust into a "Care Takers" role.... if a spouse became severely disabled/ in a wheel chair- Paraplegic comes to mind....especially if one is in their Sexual Prime of life....I would have much sympathy on their emotional struggles ..the unfairness of it all.....I feel such spouses would need their own support system to hold themselves together, another outlet....an abounding unselfish love that reaches beyond is almost necessary. 

I can understand how some can CRACK under the strain of loneliness -because of the Great Loss to what "was"...they would have to go through the stages of grief and find "acceptance" with their new roles in the marriage.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

DCMarriageCounselor said:


> Can you tell the difference between what your wife does to make you happy and what satisfies you about your relationship to your wife? .


And the topic is “Do you love your wife more than sex?”

So, I’m seriously confused at what answers you seek.... It is extremely complex. My “upside down” world:

First, my wife doesn’t “make me” feel diddly-squat. That comes from within. It all in how I interpret what she is doing into an emotional response. I can control that, or at least guide my emotions toward what I want. 

Couple examples: My wife can go to Hallmark and pick out a very special card (it is special to her that is and expresses what she feels). Now, I can interpret the receipt in a variety of ways: I can appreciate the gesture, I could get mad at the waste of money, I can be disappointed she can’t tell me in her own words, Etc. See how I can make whatever interpretation I want? That is my control. And because I’m aware of how it’s done, I can discard those perceptions I don’t want and focus on the interpretation that I’d most want to feel. I create my own reality. If I want to destroy the marriage, I only need to make every interpretation a negative thing. I can allow myself to be angered and resentful.

Satisfaction is a grade. That’s based on expectations. And again.... That comes from within. She can’t control it or set the levels. She can only be judged and weighed against it. And since I know its internal and that I control this, I can raise or lower that bar however I like.

These are some nasty lessons I learned from my wife. Things like how she demonized me to lower that satisfaction. How she’d interpret every action as some sort of conspiracy against her. How her OM, even using her, she could spin into something “great” about him. She too learned how to create her own reality and make it what she wanted to see.... not how it really was. And there lies the danger. You do need to watch yourself and keep yourself grounded in the real world. Forums like this help. Friends, family, etc. Basically the ones who have nothing to gain to express their thoughts of “normality” into your interpretations. Surround yourself with the wrong sort, and “normal” gets redefined by their standards.


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## DCMarriageCounselor (Aug 30, 2007)

Racer said:


> And the topic is “Do you love your wife more than sex?”
> 
> First, my wife doesn’t “make me” feel diddly-squat. That comes from within. It all in how I interpret what she is doing into an emotional response. I can control that, or at least guide my emotions toward what I want.


I can't be the only one that gets this confused. I know what you mean about choosing to buy into my feelings but I'm a little surprised I'm not hearing from more guys that would just say, "tit (or tits) for tat. If she doesn't keep up her end of things I won't keep up my end." Puns intended.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Racer is a good guy, he has simply bought into a belief system I disagree with. 

I do agree it is my job to make me happy with me. I own that. 

It is also true that the most valuable part of my life is my marriage. 

The way I feel about my marriage is driven by two things. What I put into it, and how my wife treats it/me. 

Pretty simple stuff. It is NOT and never will be my job to accept and be happy with what she does for me, when it is clearly crap. 

And this is where the folks who drive their lives in reverse and whine endlessly get lost. 

Those folks say: I would never divorce because the valid reasons for divorce are...short list..... And he/she isn't doing that. 

But that isn't what they are actually doing. What they are doing is carefully avoiding taking steps that might upset their partner because they are afraid their partner will leave THEM. 

Because you aren't obligated by any vows to keep pandering to a bad partner. And it isn't on you if they respond to your boundary enforcement with threats of divorce or the real thing.


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## sweaty teddy (Nov 13, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> The only person I love right now, and ever will, unconditionally is my son. He did not choose to come into this world but was exacted into it against a will that he would possess later. Supposing I failed tremendously as a parent or he as a son and he became a criminal, I might be the one to drag him to the police station myself but I would still love him deeply and lament the failure eternally.
> 
> My wife, no... And that's what makes marriage so beautiful. The beautiful garden bed of flowers is beautiful not because it stands immortal and defiant to the world, immune to the environment. The garden bed is beautiful because it withers so easily on its own but stands due to the unceasing vigilance and work of its caretaker, watered and tended daily. That is why we stand in awe of them, and the same principle applies to the conditional aspect of marriage. There are so many conditions that must be met for it to work, whosoever are the two meeting them have a garden that transfixes indeed since the garden will not grow unconditionally. This stigma of "conditional love" today is bringing ruin to many marriages, creating lazy men and frigid women, each unhappy with other and with themselves, each the caretaker of a dead garden.
> 
> ...


would you love your son unconditional if he was or turned out to be a bad apple so to speak?

what if he turned to drugs and was steeling from you to suport his habit.
what if you found out he was abusing his wife or children?

IMHO there is no such beast as unconditional love.

with that said there situations where husband, wives,and mother,and fathers still love their family and friends even thought their needs are not being met or recpriocated.

if through no fault of their own something comes along and changes things....such as illness,and accident

in the childs senario you could argue that if they were taking advantage of you in some way you could say tough love would be the answer ....well son I love you but because you refuse to get treatment for you addiction I will not enable you any long and you must leave until you make the effort to get help.and follow all the rules of transparancy.

this method also works with wives and husbands when the partner finaly get fed up with whatever bullsh*t their partner is giving then this ultimatium will either make it or break it if it ends the relationship then so be it.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

We were discussing our "Love Tanks" this morning and my wife asked me if there was room for compromise on it...like, does mine have to be "Full" to be happy? And what about her love tank? If I'm not able to fill her tank enough to feel satisfied, does that mean she doesn't have to make efforts to fill mine?
Her tank reference is about feeling secure in the relationship financially and with hopes to purchase a home in the near future. (we lost our home due to our business failing because we went bankrupt in the bad economy. I now have a great IT job where I am making more than we did with our business.)
Mine is her desire to make me happy.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Blanca said:


> I need to take mine back for a tune-up, then. his wires got crossed somewhere...:lol:


haha!!

Yeah, we definitely are just talking about typical cases, YMMV.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

IndyTM said:


> We were discussing our "Love Tanks" this morning and my wife asked me if there was room for compromise on it...like, does mine have to be "Full" to be happy? And what about her love tank? If I'm not able to fill her tank enough to feel satisfied, does that mean she doesn't have to make efforts to fill mine?
> Her tank reference is about feeling secure in the relationship financially and with hopes to purchase a home in the near future. (we lost our home due to our business failing because we went bankrupt in the bad economy. I now have a great IT job where I am making more than we did with our business.)
> Mine is her desire to make me happy.


Hmmm, sounds fishy on her part. And, if you are right on this, there are several problems with her "needs". Best to confirm what exactly her needs are.

But, that being said, I would call her out on her mindset. Based on what you wrote, she is trying to figure out how little she can give in order to get her needs met. And there is a question of what she views as "financial security" - sometimes this standard is so high that it is better viewed as "affluence".

Suppose she asks if your love tank must be full. Refuse to be pinned down. You might say "the 'love tank' reflects balance - the only way to get much out of it over the long-term is to put a lot into it over the long-term. If you put in less than you take out it will run dry eventually.

Suppose she asks about her financial security needs. A good response would be to reframe the question in terms of attitudes instead of outcomes for which you depend on outside parties. You might note you work hard, consistently and for long periods of time, to provide that which make her happy - and you expect her to reciprocate. You might note that holding you accountable for losing your business in this severe recession is akin to her developing cancer and you being pissed that she's too sick to screw you.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

sweaty teddy said:


> would you love your son unconditional if he was or turned out to be a bad apple so to speak?
> 
> what if he turned to drugs and was steeling from you to suport his habit.
> what if you found out he was abusing his wife or children?


Yup, I'd still love him... I might have turned him in to jail myself for abusing my family/drugs/murder/whatever, but I'd still spend the rest of my days investing everything I could into my relationship with him, even if it's just correspondence, visitation, or even meditative activities by myself at home. 

In some way, even separated physically from him, my life would still be dedicated to him the person or him the memory... That will never stop until I stop living. So, yes, unconditional love is possible. There are ZERO conditions for my son to ever have to meet for me to maintain the ever-present love I feel for him, whether those days are happy ones or not.

Unconditional love is beautiful in its own way, and I feel it should be reserved for our children without exception, but not not marriage... The conditional love of marriage is beautiful in its own way too.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Racer is a good guy, he has simply bought into a belief system I disagree with.
> 
> I do agree it is my job to make me happy with me. I own that.
> 
> ...


I do not agree with that belief system either... This makes 100% more sense to me.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> I do not agree with that belief system either... This makes 100% more sense to me.


Yep, that changed my wife's attitude real quick when she found I was no longer afraid of divorce over our issues. She can no longer use that as a threat...I actually became the dominant one and now it is she whom is afraid. I let her know that I was flawed in believing my love for her was unconditional.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

IndyTM said:


> Yep, that changed my wife's attitude real quick when she found I was no longer afraid of divorce over our issues. She can no longer use that as a threat...I actually became the dominant one and now it is she whom is afraid. I let her know that I was flawed in believing my love for her was unconditional.


What a difference that makes, huh? :smthumbup:


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