# Wife is "just friends" with male co-worker?



## MWP

Hello all,

I have read several posts related to my situation, and saw many great insights. I too am worried, and would like to share my situation to see what you all think.

We have been married 18 years, most of it happily. We generally have a good relationship. Two years ago, we moved cross-country. It was difficult for her leaving family and friends. She’s had difficulty making new friends since moving here...except one.

She is a healthcare professional who works in a hospital setting. My job sometimes requires me to work nights. At her new job, she befriended a male doctor. He’s nice enough of a guy. He’s married and has three children. We have been out with them or social gatherings and have been to their home or family parties. There’s nothing too special about him as far as looks, just an average guy and even kind of nerdy.

Being the one who pays the bills, I review our cell phone bill and I view the activity. I noticed a lot of text messages between the two, mostly during work hours. It is understandable that they text while at work because they need to communicate their location, what they’re doing next, etc. 

Just to be sure, I looked at the text messages on her phone and noticed they also talk about where to go for lunch. When I asked her about this, she says often a group goes out together for lunch. What really got me curious was that she first said that she “never goes to lunch alone” with him, but then later said “she rarely goes to lunch alone” during the same conversation.

I sort of blew it off, but that concern was still in the back of my head. As I went about to regular life paying the bills, I noticed several messages between them during non-working hours. What really had me concerned was that she sent him photos while she was out of town (he wasn’t with her). 

Out of concern for our marriage, I again took a look at her text messages when I got the opportunity. I saw that the pictures were of food that she was eating and they spoke a lot about restaurants. I never knew my wife to be a foodie, but she sure appeared like it. They would send restaurant recommendations back and forth, pictures of menus and food, etc. Normally, that would not be a concern. But, she sent quite a few messages while she was out of town but did not text me. 

When I asked her about this, she said that she didn’t think I would be interested in the type of food she was eating. This is when the hairs started standing up on the back of my neck. She was sharing an interest with a male co-worker, outside of normal business hours.

I had a conversation with her about him where I stated my concern about his intentions. I almost felt bad, because he’s a super nice guy and is quite unassuming. I even joked with her that if she were to have an affair with him, she would have a great cover because I would never suspect it. 

My wife says that he would never do anything because “he loves his wife too much”. Does this mean they’re talking about each other’s marriages?

She says he’s “like a brother” and “just friends”. She also got upset about the move and said that he’s the only friend she has. Man, it made me feel bad and like a jerk! I felt like I wasn’t allowing her to have her own friends, but my concern remains that it’s a guy!

The reason this bothers me is because throughout our marriage, my wife has always had the opinion that men and women cannot be “just friends”, that something sexual is always possible. My wife is the jealous type, and I thought this was to prevent me from talking to other women. But now, I’m confused. I even texted that to her, “What happened to men and women can’t be just friends?” She did not address that comment and blamed my other stressors for me being upset and that I was picking on her.

I kept quiet for a while after that to see what would happen. I noticed the amount of text messages increase. Now, it’s not a crazy number like I’ve seen on other posts here. I would say they shared about 60-100 messages per month. My concern was that several of them (sometimes more than half) were during off hours (after work) or during off days.

On the most recent bill, I noticed the texts with him outnumbered mine. (I did a CTRL-F for our phone numbers). So, I decided to dig a little deeper. We have a family calendar that shows our work schedules. I took the past three months cell phone bills and compared their texting time with working time. Most of the messages were either after hours or off-days. 

Again, these aren’t crazy numbers but there is still concern. For instance, there were 8 messages while I was at work. Not so bad.

Another set of messages appeared after I had gone to sleep. The conversation started at 10:53 PM and went until 11:26 PM. I was surely asleep by that time because I had a long day at work. Ok, getting concerned but there were only about 15 messages exchanged.

On a day that I had to work night shift, I slept during the day and there were about 8 message exchanged while I was asleep.

One day I had work all day and there were about 34 messages exchanged during that time.

There were other messages during my sleeping time, but again not crazy numbers. Just a few here and there. I’m thinking I either have cause for concern or she is just not wanting to text him while I’m around so I don’t get upset. Now I am curious to get into the phone and compare the log with the bill to see if there are any deleted messages. I’m sure that would tell me a lot.

Other than going out for lunch together, I don’t think they actually meet up outside of work unless we’re all together. I’m just concerned about the continuous texting. There are some days they don’t text at all.

So after reading posts on here about emotional affairs and such, I am concerned. She has found companionship outside of the marriage, although I do not believe it is physical. Heck, I don’t even know if it’s emotional. But to me it seems highly inappropriate to be texting each other outside of work.

I also looked into signs of emotional affairs, and some are there while others are not.

1 - Suddenly secretive - Not really, unless she’s good at it.
2 - Mentioning the other person repeatedly - Well, sometimes.
3 - Partner seems disconnected, intimacy changes - Not so sure about this one either. We often become disconnected due to our busy lives, and intimacy goes up and down.
4 - Partner becomes critical - Sometimes she does criticize me, but not a lot.
5 - Your gut tells you something is wrong - Well, yes. I am obviously not at ease about this.

Am I being an overprotective jerk? Should I let them be “just friends” and do nothing? Has anyone else ever experienced this? From what you’ve read, does it seem like they’re just good friends?

I do plan on addressing this with her, once again. I want to wait until I can look more into the content of the messages and see if any are deleted.

I was thinking about telling her that I often text a female co-worker after my wife went to sleep or was away at work and that we share an interest in (fill in the blank). And that we often communicate away from work. After seeing her reaction, I will tell her that I did not do any of those things -- she did. I believe it’s the only way I can get her to understand how I feel about it. 

So am I stressing over nothing?


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## naiveonedave

You are not stressing over nothing. This doctor is actively dating your W. She is lying through her teeth about their relationship.

Don't lie to her to try to one up her, that may make it easier for your W to 'blame' you for her cheating.

It probably wouldn't hurt to verify that they are going to lunch and not for a 'ride', if you get my drift. Hospitals are notorious for cheating.


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## Bongo

Lay low. Do not tip your hand re suspicions again. lots of red flags, in particular her inconsistent stance on male/female relationships.
I think you may , very well, be correct.
But, your ability to investigate will be compromised if you leak your suspicions anymore.
I am no expert on investigative techniques but others here may be. Just wanted to emphasize that if she is cheating, going to her for confirmation of anything is never going to be productive.
Best results I had was from hiring a PI and sitting back and letting him do his job.


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## Lostme

Has she said why she is not making friends with any of the female co workers, I'm sure there are quite a few at a hospital?

It does seem that atmosphere is ripe for cheating, I would be concerned. 

You didn't mention the time of days that your wife works, is it possible to go there one days and surprise her for lunch to see how she acts? If so monitor if she is happy to see you, or seems bothered that you showed up.


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## brooklynAnn

I would really recommend that you read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.

You wife is now in a full blown EA whether she realizes it or not. How would the Doc's wife feel if she knew her husband was texting another woman so often? She would be concerned.

Read the book as quickly as you can and you would have a better understanding of where this is all going. After that gave it to your wife to read. 

Continue to monitor things. Let her play out her hand for now. Then step and ask that she not contact him after work hours and certainly not when you are sleeping. See how she reacts to this.


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## LucasJackson

Danger, Will Robinson!!! Your gut is always right. You have another rooster in your hen house and he's trying to poach your wife. Shut it down now. Don't sit back, as some are suggesting, and let their relationship grow. Shut it down or he'll talk her pants off. Is that what you want?


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## BetrayedDad

The healthcare industry has a very high rate of infidelity.

Swapping photos and numerous texts during nonwork hours?

At best, there is a VERY strong possibility she's in an EA.

Continue to investigate. What kind of phone does she have? Are you familiar with VARs.

You can go the PI route if your uncomfortable with technology, otherwise we have resources here.

There are certainly enough red flags to warrant an investigation but do it COVERTLY.


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## anchorwatch

*gas·light*

verb
gerund or present participle: gaslighting
manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.
"in the first episode, Karen Valentine is being gaslighted by her husband"

*lim·er·ence*

noun PSYCHOLOGY
the state of being infatuated or obsessed with another person, typically experienced involuntarily and characterized by a strong desire for reciprocation of one's feelings but not primarily for a sexual relationship.


For your reading...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html#post9756666

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"

Best


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## 225985

Really?!?!


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## Bongo

LucasJackson said:


> Danger, Will Robinson!!! Your gut is always right. You have another rooster in your hen house and he's trying to poach your wife. Shut it down now. Don't sit back, as some are suggesting, and let their relationship grow. Shut it down or he'll talk her pants off. Is that what you want?


 Folks differ in their opinion on this. But. to me, if her pants are talked off, she has a proclivity for this and you might want to reconsider if you want to play warden going forward.
For me, I would prefer giving her enough rope to allow for discerning this underlying proclivity. Then, I could plan my future with knowledge of what she is capable.


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## Herschel

Don't focus on the text messages, they may be a red herring. See if she has any chat apps on her phone. She may be using the simple this is what we are doing in texts while there is down and dirty stuff on other apps.

Obviously this could just be paranoia, but what gets me isn't her. It's him. He has a wife and 3 kids and a pretty busy job. Why is he focusing so much time and energy on her?


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## LucasJackson

Bongo said:


> Folks differ in their opinion on this. But. to me, if her pants are talked off, she has a proclivity for this and you might want to reconsider if you want to play warden going forward.
> For me, I would prefer giving her enough rope to allow for discerning this underlying proclivity. Then, I could plan my future with knowledge of what she is capable.


I understand where you're coming from but that love bank is a real thing. Make enough deposits and off come the pants. You and I both know that. How many women in our lives have we talked out of their pants? Back we both dated our wives, we did the same thing the douche bag OM in this post is doing. We made enough love bank deposits to get them out of their pants.


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## anchorwatch

Herschel said:


> Obviously this could just be paranoia, but what gets me isn't her. It's him. He has a wife and 3 kids and a pretty busy job. Why is he focusing so much time and energy on her?


...and he has a lot more to lose if his W gets a whiff of this.

@MWP, stay calm, do your investigation, then act.


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## badmemory

Here's what I advise OP:

Get to her phone any way you can, and read those text messages. Also check to see if she has deleted any of them. If they are non-revealing and she has not deleted any of them, I would tell her that you won't accept her communicating with him after hours. Period. That is a reasonable marital boundary.

If she has deleted any of them, I would covertly put spyware on her phone to monitor the texts and/or put a VAR in her car to record her phone conversations (especially if you check the cell records and she is often calling him driving to or back from work). Wait a week or two, then confront based on the evidence. I'm confidant that you'll find something.

If you do discover they are having an EA or PA and should you decide to R - don't jump head first. Take your time to decide. But if you do decide to; one of the first consequences she would face would be quitting her job and ending contact completely. Check back with us if it gets to that point. 

Sorry you're here. Keep posting.


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## brooklynAnn

Wow @LucasJackson, look at you talking about love bank deposits. You convert. >

But you are right. The more this guy feeds her into believing that their friendship is oh so awesome, the more likely that things will start developing into a full blown PA. 

Since, OP know the Doc's wife, give her a call and ask her what she thinks about this. That such light a fire under his as*.


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## phillybeffandswiss

These are personal red flags for me through experience:


> “he loves his wife too much”.





> She says he’s “like a brother”





> “just friends”.





> The reason this bothers me is because throughout our marriage, my wife has always had the opinion that men and women cannot be “just friends”, that something sexual is always possible. My wife is the jealous type, and I thought this was to prevent me from talking to other women. But now, I’m confused. I even texted that to her, “What happened to men and women can’t be just friends?” She did not address that comment and blamed my other stressors for me being upset and that I was picking on her.


Now, individually sure it is different. You've got them all with late night texts, days off and travel texts. You need to calm down, which is hard, stop talking about the issue and investigate further. Yes you need to snoop. Yes, you need to have proof one way or another before you go in guns blazing. 

The last one is the most dangerous to me. Men and women who do this are cake eaters. They want their spouse to follow those rules, but they do not apply to them. You have my favorite, least in context, red flag the blame shift of guilt to the spouse. So, you are a bad guy because you noticed an inordinate amount of texts to a guy off work hours, who she lunches with, shares foodie stuff with and is just like a brother. Yet, she became defensive and pushed everything onto you to make you feel guilty. 

Yep, I'd be worried. My wife defended her friend the same way. He really may have been a friend, with no intimacy, but he DEFINITELY wasn't a friend of the marriage. Yes, she may not be cheating, but this friend can be dangerous to the marriage. TAM( Talk about Marriage forum) calls them "toxic friends," they can be of any gender and can be extremely dangerous.



> I was thinking about telling her that I often text a female co-worker after my wife went to sleep or was away at work and that we share an interest in (fill in the blank). And that we often communicate away from work. After seeing her reaction, I will tell her that I did not do any of those things -- she did. I believe it’s the only way I can get her to understand how I feel about it.


No. We see this a ton here and it tends to backfire. It makes you a hypocrite, liar and if she doesn't react correctly she'll throw it back in your face. You've already seen the "do as I say, not as I do" jealousy. Also, you give covert permission it is okay to take it further. If she is about to cheat or has, you can't make her feel anything she doesn't want to in the first place.


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## LucasJackson

badmemory said:


> Here's what I advise OP:
> 
> Get to her phone any way you can, and read those text messages. Also check to see if she has deleted any of them. If they are non-revealing and she has not deleted any of them, I would tell her that you won't accept her communicating with him after hours. Period. That is a reasonable marital boundary.
> 
> If she has deleted any of them, I would covertly put spyware on her phone to monitor the texts and/or put a VAR in her car to record her phone conversations (especially if you check the cell records and she is often calling him driving to or back from work). Wait a week or two, then confront based on the evidence. I'm confidant that you'll find something.
> 
> If you do discover they are having an EA or PA and should you decide to R; one of the first consequences she would face would be quitting her job and ending contact completely. But check back with us if it gets to that point. There's a lot more that she must accept.
> 
> Sorry you're here. Keep posting.


I agree on the phone. The easy way to do this is the next time they go out, he purposely leaves his phone at home. When they're out he says "sh*t, I need to call so and so, I left my phone at home, let me borrow yours." If she hesitates for one second to hand it over, there's already an affair going on.


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## MrsAldi

You said your wife is the jealous type & said "men & women cannot be just friends". 

But she has a double standard now. 
She can text her co-workers but you can't! 
Then she ignored your text about it! 
And then blamed you & said you were picking on her! 

They are getting closer now & I wonder what the Doctors wife thinks of all this? 

If it's causing you serious upset in your marriage then you should ask her to stop. 
Because no doubt if you were doing it, she would expect the same. 
If she doesn't want to give up this "friendship" that's a serious red flag. 

Definitely yes, she how she reacts differently if you tell her about communication with another woman. 





Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

Bongo said:


> Folks differ in their opinion on this. But. to me, if her pants are talked off, she has a proclivity for this and you might want to reconsider if you want to play warden going forward.
> For me, I would prefer giving her enough rope to allow for discerning this underlying proclivity. Then, I could plan my future with knowledge of what she is capable.


Yes, but you are still playing warden.


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## LucasJackson

brooklynAnn said:


> Wow @LucasJackson, look at you talking about love bank deposits. You convert. >
> 
> But you are right. The more this guy feeds her into believing that their friendship is oh so awesome, the more likely that things will start developing into a full blown PA.
> 
> Since, OP know the Doc's wife, give her a call and ask her what she thinks about this. That such light a fire under his as*.


I've been having some really deep heart-to-heart talks with a reformed cheater myself. My wife and I are really digging into a lot of stuff.

Here's something I found out that makes me tell the OP to shut this down now. This may not be for all women but it came from my wife. I used to do "mate guarding". If we were in a bar and I went to use the restroom, if I came back and some dude was sniffing around my wife, I'd get very angry at him, and say something like "that's my wife, buzz off a$$hole!" If he said anything back he probably got popped. I'm a fairly well built guy, none of them have ever said anything back, they just left.

Anyway, as I got older and less hot headed, I allowed opposite sex friendships and if the same scenario came up I'd play it far more passive.

I thought I was being a modern male, the preferred type of male for today's ladies, for my wife. I found out I was wrong. She loved it when I didn't want any other men sniffing around her. That showed her how special she was to me and she felt safe and secure that she was my lady. The more liberal I became as I got older, the less mate guarding I did, and she started to doubt if I still loved her the same.

OP, trust me when I say every castle can only have one king. If you're not the king of your castle then your throne will be usurped by another male. SHUT. THIS. DOWN. NOW.


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## Bongo

LucasJackson said:


> I understand where you're coming from but that love bank is a real thing. Make enough deposits and off come the pants. You and I both know that. How many women in our lives have we talked out of their pants? Back we both dated our wives, we did the same thing the douche bag OM in this post is doing. We made enough love bank deposits to get them out of their pants.



Yes, I see your position and have no problem with it for anyone else. But, for me, I would not want to be with someone who could be so persuaded. A vow is a vow to me.


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## Bongo

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, but you are still playing warden.


In my case, no, as the future would entail jettisoning her. I have no tolerance for disloyalty.


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## MyRevelation

The biggest red flag is your "gut". You know your W better than anyone, and you are sensing that something is "off". Unfortunately, many of us have experienced the same "gut" feeling and were right ... raising my hand here!!!

Gus seems to be the resident expert of gleaning info from cell phones, hopefully he'll be along soon. Give him a head start by posting what type phone your W uses and is it password protected?

If her phone is not password protected or you know the code, can you get your hands on her phone to do some snooping through her texts to see what she's really texting Dr. Love? Also, when reviewing the phone records, do they talk live or just by text? If they talk on the phone, too ... you may want to hide a VAR in her car to pick up the spoken words when she feels she's safely alone.

Also, some professions/workplaces are notorious for infidelity and hospitals are at the top of that list.

In spite of all that, I agree with LucasJackson, your W is spending way too much energy on an opposite sex "friendship" and you have every right to demand that she pull the plug on it, as you are obviously uncomfortable with their relationship, whatever it is.


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## VladDracul

"_My wife says that he would never do anything because “he loves his wife too much”._ "

Who do you think has more potential of having larceny in their heart?

1. "I'd never be able to embezzle money from that company. Their controls are too tight." 

2. No way in hell I'd embezzle money from mine or any other company.

You see where I going with this, don't you MWP.


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## 41362

Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here. I think that there is a strong liklihood that she isn't cheating. That is really is a simple friendship. Look, I work in healthcare and my wife is a clinician. She is close to the members on her team. Really close. They save lives together and they watch folks die together...if that doesn't bond you, nothing does. It's a support network, too, because they lose as many as they win.There is a ton of cheating in healthcare because of this bond. That's a fact. If you trust your wife, then trust her. If this relationship is too close, and it is tearing you up, then tell her. If she's a healthcare professional, this is the norm, not an exception.


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## LucasJackson

Bongo said:


> Yes, I see your position and have no problem with it for anyone else. But, for me, I would not want to be with someone who could be so persuaded. A vow is a vow to me.


I understand, I don't want to spy but this case it's not required. This OP's marriage is under full frontal assault by some douche bag doctor. He's not even hiding it. The more passive the OP plays it, the weaker he looks. He needs to be king of his castle and shut this down. I'd tell my wife that I don't like where this friendship has gone at all. It disrespects me as your husband and I'm not going to f'ing tolerate it. You're my wife, my one love for life, and I will be happy to chat with you via text message but this sh*t with him stops now.

My next conversation would be with Dr. Douche Bag. I'd say look man, I love my wife and I won't sit back while you try to slither in the back door of my house like a snake. I catch you texting her again and we're going to have another conversation, only in that one you're not going to like it one bit. Back off.


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## arbitrator

Herschel said:


> Don't focus on the text messages, they may be a red herring. See if she has any chat apps on her phone. She may be using the simple this is what we are doing in texts while there is down and dirty stuff on other apps.
> 
> Obviously this could just be paranoia, but what gets me isn't her. It's him. He has a wife and 3 kids and a pretty busy job. * Why is he focusing so much time and energy on her?*


*How about the sad fact that perhaps the "Good Doctor" ain't exactly getting himself his fair quota of any domestic "nooky" back at the house?

You might need to take time to plant a good quality VAR up under her car seat and you might actually be surprised at what you come up with!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LucasJackson

VladDracul said:


> "_My wife says that he would never do anything because “he loves his wife too much”._ "
> 
> Who do you think has more potential of having larceny in their heart?
> 
> 1. "I'd never be able to embezzle money from that company. Their controls are too tight."
> 
> 2. No way in hell I'd embezzle money from mine or any other company.
> 
> You see where I going with this, don't you MWP.


I picked up on the same vibe. She didn't say I'd never do anything because it's wrong, I love you and only you, and would never betray you.

She basically said I'd never do anything because he doesn't want to but if he did....


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## Bongo

LucasJackson said:


> I've been having some really deep heart-to-heart talks with a reformed cheater myself. My wife and I are really digging into a lot of stuff.
> 
> Here's something I found out that makes me tell the OP to shut this down now. This may not be for all women but it came from my wife. I used to do "mate guarding". If we were in a bar and I went to use the restroom, if I came back and some dude was sniffing around my wife, I'd get very angry at him, and say something like "that's my wife, buzz off a$$hole!" If he said anything back he probably got popped. I'm a fairly well built guy, none of them have ever said anything back, they just left.
> 
> Anyway, as I got older and less hot headed, I allowed opposite sex friendships and if the same scenario came up I'd play it far more passive.
> 
> I thought I was being a modern male, the preferred type of male for today's ladies, for my wife. I found out I was wrong. She loved it when I didn't want any other men sniffing around her. That showed her how special she was to me and she felt safe and secure that she was my lady. The more liberal I became as I got older, the less mate guarding I did, and she started to doubt if I still loved her the same.
> 
> OP, trust me when I say every castle can only have one king. If you're not the king of your castle then your throne will be usurped by another male. SHUT. THIS. DOWN. NOW.


 This seems premised on one's ability to physically overpower potential interlopers, which some of us do not possess. One could sustain a significant ass kicking employing this technique, one that causes serious permanent injury.
I never learned how to fight with any degree of mastery, having devoted my physical training to the particular sport in which I excelled. 
Where would that leave me if, despite what my wife saw at one time as attractive attributes, my inability to engage successfully in bar fights turned her off?
A wife that puts her husband in danger like this via allowing flirting etc. is demonstrating a callous disregard for her husband's physical and emotional well being such that it calls into question her love and devotion. IMO.


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## LucasJackson

Bongo said:


> This seems premised on one's ability to physically overpower potential interlopers, which some of us do not possess. One could sustain a significant ass kicking employing this technique, one that causes serious permanent injury.
> I never learned how to fight with any degree of mastery, having devoted my physical training to the particular sport in which I excelled.
> Where would that leave me if, despite what my wife saw at one time as attractive attributes, my inability to engage successfully in bar fights turned her off?
> A wife that puts her husband in danger like this via allowing flirting etc. is demonstrating a callous disregard for her husband's physical and emotional well being such that it calls into question her love and devotion. IMO.


You don't have to fight. I've never had to. It's all in the attitude. You have to muster the strength to give off the vibe that you're dead serious and some serious sh*t is about to go down if he doesn't step off. It's all in the attitude. Use the anger you feel when you see someone attempting to steal your mate. Focus that energy and direct it straight at him. Look him straight in the eye and do not flinch or blink. You could be a 98 lb weakling and it'll still work.

The reason it will work is because the kind of guy trying to snake your woman isn't the kind of guy that will have the courage to stand up to you.


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## Bongo

LucasJackson said:


> You don't have to fight. I've never had to. It's all in the attitude. You have to muster the strength to give off the vibe that you're dead serious and some serious sh*t is about to go down if he doesn't step off. It's all in the attitude. Use the anger you feel when you see someone attempting to steal your mate. Focus that energy and direct it straight at him. Look him straight in the eye and do not flinch or blink. You could be a 98 lb weakling and it'll still work.
> 
> The reason it will work is because the kind of guy trying to snake your woman isn't the kind of guy that will have the courage to stand up to you.


My wife was pretty hot. Some of the guys interested in her appeared to have devoted themselves to serious training and developing skill at fighting. I had no time or inclination to develop those particular skills, although I was in very good shape for my age due to years of high level basketball.
Confronting such men would pose a significant danger to my physical health and my family needed me to remain intact to provide for them.
Where is the women's obligation in all this to protect one's spouse from these dangers? I am not talking about something involuntary, where a man is forcing himself on her, but situations like you describe with your wife where she allowed danger to enter your realm. Seems rather unloving to me.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Bad memory is 100% on the mark. Wake up! Man up! Take charge sir as your wife is at the minimum in an EA. From what I have read, the number of texts and other info you posted I would deduce also it has very likely gone PA. The sooner you get the VAR in place the better.
Snoop her phone. Watch her email accounts. You know something is up or you would not have posted her. I was the same as you about 10 months ago, and boy was my gut right.


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## brooklynAnn

LucasJackson said:


> I've been having some really deep heart-to-heart talks with a reformed cheater myself. My wife and I are really digging into a lot of stuff.
> 
> Here's something I found out that makes me tell the OP to shut this down now. This may not be for all women but it came from my wife. I used to do "mate guarding". If we were in a bar and I went to use the restroom, if I came back and some dude was sniffing around my wife, I'd get very angry at him, and say something like "that's my wife, buzz off a$$hole!" If he said anything back he probably got popped. I'm a fairly well built guy, none of them have ever said anything back, they just left.
> 
> Anyway, as I got older and less hot headed, I allowed opposite sex friendships and if the same scenario came up I'd play it far more passive.
> 
> I thought I was being a modern male, the preferred type of male for today's ladies, for my wife. I found out I was wrong. She loved it when I didn't want any other men sniffing around her. That showed her how special she was to me and she felt safe and secure that she was my lady. The more liberal I became as I got older, the less mate guarding I did, and she started to doubt if I still loved her the same.
> 
> OP, trust me when I say every castle can only have one king. If you're not the king of your castle then your throne will be usurped by another male. SHUT. THIS. DOWN. NOW.


I totally get what you are saying. I never thought by acting jealous my H would have a bit of an ego boost and feel special. Monday morning I woke up and went right to his phone and started to check on it. He asked me if he had a lot of text after he fell asleep. I said no. So he wanted to know what's wrong, I said, wouldn't you like to know. I had a dream where he and some unknown woman was texting each other. So, I woke up in a rage. When I told him my dream, he started to laugh. He took the day off and stayed home with me. He said it's good to see me jealous. Because I am never like that. He felt really good that I still felt like that about him. 

Here we are thinking that we a modern and be being sensible and trusting our spouse. Not realizing that just a bit of jealousy can make them feel good. Lesson learned.


----------



## LucasJackson

Bongo said:


> My wife was pretty hot. Some of the guys interested in her appeared to have devoted themselves to serious training and developing skill at fighting. I had no time or inclination to develop those particular skills, although I was in very good shape for my age due to years of high level basketball.
> Confronting such men would pose a significant danger to my physical health and my family needed me to remain intact to provide for them.
> Where is the women's obligation in all this to protect one's spouse from these dangers? I am not talking about something involuntary, where a man is forcing himself on her, but situations like you describe with your wife where she allowed anger to enter your realm. Seems rather unloving to me.


I am sorry about that but you have to stand up for yourself. If you won't be king of your castle then your mate will look for another one. I know. I became Mr. passive and she cheated. She'll say that isn't why that it was all her and not me but I'm willing to admit areas where I screwed up. Being too passive was one of them. I was a Marine grunt too so I'm kind of ashamed of myself for that. There will be no more opposite sex friends where there's any 1-on-1 interactions going on. Group settings? Fine. 1-on-1? No. This OP has a snake trying to poach his wife. Being passive is the last thing in the world he needs to be right now. You know who isn't being passive? The OM.


----------



## LucasJackson

brooklynAnn said:


> I totally get what you are saying. I never thought by acting jealous my H would have a bit of an ego boost and feel special. Monday morning I woke up and went right to his phone and started to check on it. He asked me if he had a lot of text after he fell asleep. I said no. So he wanted to know what's wrong, I said, wouldn't you like to know. I had a dream where he and some unknown woman was texting each other. So, I woke up in a rage. When I told him my dream, he started to laugh. He took the day off and stayed home with me. He said it's good to see me jealous. Because I am never like that. He felt really good that I still felt like that about him.
> 
> Here we are thinking that we a modern and be being sensible and trusting our spouse. Not realizing that just a bit of jealousy can make them feel good. Lesson learned.


I think we all like to see our mates be a little jealous if we receive any opposite sex attention. It sends us a message that we're still #1 in their heart and they don't want any interlopers sneaking in. Like with everything in life, however, be jealous in a reasonable way. Some people are psycho jealous. That's not what we're talking about here. I perfectly understand why your hubby was on cloud 9 when you showed a healthy level of jealousy. It makes him feel safe and we're all happiest when we feel safe.


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## farsidejunky

The mate guarding thing has merit. 

However, I'm of the opinion that if they want to give themselves emotionally or physically to somebody else, the best thing you can do is to let them go. 

I don't have the patience or the inclination to fight for or over a woman anymore. I would expend maximum energy looking for a smoking gun in their communication. Once that was found, I would just simply have her served. No warning, no fanfare, business as usual. Of course, except for the divorce papers that just got handed to her.


----------



## Bongo

farsidejunky said:


> The mate guarding thing has merit.
> 
> However, I'm of the opinion that if they want to give themselves emotionally or physically to somebody else, the best thing you can do is to let them go.
> 
> I don't have the patience or the inclination to fight for or over a woman anymore. I would expend maximum energy looking for a smoking gun in their communication. Once that was found, I would just simply have her served. No warning, no fanfare, business as usual. Of course, except for the divorce papers that just got handed to her.


I agree. It seems demeaning to have to compete for one's spouse and ward off others after the exchange of vows, and even before. I am not talking about a willingness to protect a spouse from uninvited danger.
I can see there are a variety of positions on the wisdom of this, but one has to be true to one's own values. I would walk away from a spouse whose behaviors caused me to have to out myself in danger, unnecessarily. It would show me a lack of devotion and concern for my well being that I would not find attractive.


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## LucasJackson

Bongo said:


> I agree. It seems demeaning to have to compete for one's spouse and ward off others after the exchange of vows, and even before. I am not talking about a willingness to protect a spouse from uninvited danger.
> I can see there are a variety of positions on the wisdom of this, but one has to be true to one's own values. I would walk away from a spouse whose behaviors caused me to have to out myself in danger, unnecessarily. It would show me a lack of devotion and concern for my well being that I would not find attractive.


You won her hand in marriage but where a lot of us screw up is that we stop trying to win their hand. It's not over once there's a ring of their finger. A good tip is to spend every day of your life courting your spouse. Continuously try to win their hand over and over. Every day. They should do the same for you but in a patriarchal species, and that is what we are, you're the pursuer, she's the pursued. If you stop pursuing her, some other man will.


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## naiveonedave

re: mate guarding. I think it is healthy. I also feel good when my wife does it for me..... It is an ego boost when she shows she cares enough to put herself out there, even though I would never cheat.


----------



## Bongo

LucasJackson said:


> You won her hand in marriage but where a lot of us screw up is that we stop trying to win their hand. It's not over once there's a ring of their finger. A good tip is to spend every day of your life courting your spouse. Continuously try to win their hand over and over. Every day. They should do the same for you but in a patriarchal species, and that is what we are, you're the pursuer, she's the pursued. If you stop pursuing her, some other man will.


Yes, but in spite a certain decreptitude that has crept in , now, historically and even to this day , to some extent, similar opportunities are afforded me. Yet, I do not require courtship and pursuit to remain true to my vows.
My history may influence this, as , in my youth, I was , for the most part, the pursued vs the pursuer, largely, I expect due to academic and athletic achievement, and reasonably good looks. 
So, I am not inclined to mate guard, as I have other options available.
But, I understand that with a different history/background, I might be inclined differently.


----------



## Satya

You are her husband and have been for a while. If she was never a foodie before, you can be sure that she's only pretending to be a foodie for him, to gain interest and create something for them to bond over. It keeps things from being "boring" and signals to him that she has something in common. It's the very stuff of early dating and courting days... Duh!

She's doing what a lot of women do - become mutable for the guy they are trying to impress. She may not even be doing it purposely or with real malicious intent. By that I mean that she knows exactly what she's doing, but she may not have any idea of the snowball effect this will and can have. Once you start rolling......

Your wife may have sworn up and down that men & women couldn't be friends, but she's not really following her own rules, is she? Do as I say, not as I do? Is that a good quality of a parent?

Maybe your lives have become too same-y and career-centric. Maybe you need to take her away somewhere exotic for a while and forbid the use of all phones unless for an emergency. Solidify your bond with her.

But nothing good can come from this relationship. It's just the beginning of the end... So my advice is to act rationally, but nip it in the bud before it goes further.

Also, back up all evidence.


----------



## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> You don't have to fight. I've never had to. It's all in the attitude. You have to muster the strength to give off the vibe that you're dead serious and some serious sh*t is about to go down if he doesn't step off. It's all in the attitude. Use the anger you feel when you see someone attempting to steal your mate.


Urgh, the thought repulses me. Fighting over a cheater? Mate guarding?

If she is so easily taken away without my intervention or playing warden then the POS can have her. Please, I insist.

I'll simply replace her. Like I did my exwife. I'd rather have a woman whose first instinct is to tell them to "fvck off, I'm taken."


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## phillybeffandswiss

Bongo said:


> In my case, no, as the future would entail jettisoning her. I have no tolerance for disloyalty.


Yes, in your case as well.


----------



## LucasJackson

BetrayedDad said:


> Urgh, the thought repulses me. Fighting over a cheater? Mate guarding?
> 
> If she is so easily taken away without my intervention or playing warden then the POS can have her. Please, I insist.
> 
> I'll simply replace her. Like I did my exwife. I'd rather have a woman whose first instinct is to tell them to "fvck off, I'm taken."


It's not that their so easily taken, it's that you're making it very well known that you don't tolerate such things. I agree with you that should be their response but women love compliments. How many times have you questioned a woman about some douche that was talking to her and you got "oh, he's harmless. He's just really nice." You and I know that the douche is anything but nice. He's sniffing for an opening and women are sometimes too trusting.

Over the years I've told my wife if women could read men's minds for like 1 hour it would be the end of the species. They'd never talk to a man again.


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## Bongo

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, in your case as well.


No, would not mate guard.


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## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> How many times have you questioned a woman about some douche that was talking to her and you got "oh, he's harmless. He's just really nice."


My ex? All the time but she was a serial cheating wh0re who was up to no good. My last two girlfriends in the span of three years? Not once.



LucasJackson said:


> Over the years I've told my wife if women could read men's minds for like 1 hour it would be the end of the species. They'd never talk to a man again.


Your wife knows EXACTLY what she's doing. I told you that in your thread. Stop thinking she's a fool. The only one fooled is YOU.


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## Bongo

LucasJackson said:


> It's not that their so easily taken, it's that you're making it very well known that you don't tolerate such things. I agree with you that should be their response but women love compliments. How many times have you questioned a woman about some douche that was talking to her and you got "oh, he's harmless. He's just really nice." You and I know that the douche is anything but nice. He's sniffing for an opening and women are sometimes too trusting.
> 
> Over the years I've told my wife if women could read men's minds for like 1 hour it would be the end of the species. They'd never talk to a man again.


Women have , pretty much the same mindset and inclinations as men, as well as greater capacity for sex (i.e multiple orgasms, ability to continue with out recovery time, ability to accommodate multiple partners etc).
If men could read women's minds, I think they might be shocked at their interest in sex, variety and the lack of a need for emotional attachment.


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## LucasJackson

Bongo said:


> Women have , pretty much the same mindset and inclinations as men, as well as greater capacity for sex (i.e multiple orgasms, ability to continue with out recovery time, ability to accommodate multiple partners etc).
> If men could read women's minds, I think they might be shocked at their interest in sex, variety and the lack of a need for emotional attachment.


I probably would have been in the past, not anymore. My wife has clued me in, quite painfully, on women's ability to have recreational sex.


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## jb02157

I would not plan to tell her that you are texting a female friend, that would only give her ammunition to scale up what she's doing. Lay low and keep monitoring, it's only a matter of time before you'll get her in the act of crossing the line.


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## BetrayedDad

Bongo said:


> If men could read women's minds, I think they might be shocked at their interest in sex, variety and the lack of a need for emotional attachment.


I disagree on a minor point. SOME women have a lack of a need for emotional attachment. Other women can't be aroused by a man without some type of emotional connection first.


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## MWP

Wow, I'm amazed at the amount of replies already! THANK YOU to all who provided input, it's invaluable! For the Marines here, Semper Fi...former 0311.

You all have valid points. I think what I'm going to do at this point is lay low and watch. I don't have much to go on right now other than my gut instinct and a few text messages. So, I want to gather evidence and present it to her but I want to catch it before it goes too far.

She has an iPhone, and she pretty much gives me free access. She even allowed me to have my thumbprint on it to unlock it. But, the phone is always with her and there is not much opportunity for me to look through it. As soon as she wakes up, the phone goes with her into the bathroom. I think she's fine with me looking at it as long as I'm not digging, such as using it to make a call or text the kids with it.

I have downloaded an iPhone backup application for the PC that can scan and pull items out of a backup file including SMS, phone calls, etc. I have AnyTrans, and I'm trying iExplorer. I need to physically have the phone for this. What I've been telling her is that she has so many good family photos on her phone and I want to put them on the computer so they can be added to our Shutterfly account. That should give me the opportunity to plug it in, let it save the files and then scan through them later. I will then be able to compare the messages to the cell phone bill.

As for VAR's, she doesn't talk on the phone much with him...it's mostly texts. I have a Galaxy Tablet that I keep in our bedroom. I've downloaded an app called "Smart Voice Recorder". It is sound activated and can run in the background. I plug it in and set it aside to record, but I haven't picked up anything yet. 

I do like the idea of a VAR in the car, though. To keep up with our teenagers, we have an app on our phones called Life360. It will show you on a map where the family members are. If she is leaving her phone at work and going to lunch, that could be fruitful.

I have to admit, it's hard to hear what you're all saying. It appears the consensus is that it's at least an EA. I have been seeking counseling lately for other issues, but this one came up. The counselor even called it an EA. Ugh.

For the other healthcare professional on here, thank you for your input. I understand your point of view. I know there's not much love for my profession right now, but I'll just say it. I'm a police officer, and I have seen people die right in front of me. I have had to tell families their loved one would never come home again. I also have female co-workers. But, I don't cross any boundaries with them. I understand that bond, but how does it progress into being a foodie and late-night text messages?

I forgot to mention this to you guys. Without prompt, she sent me screen shots of a few text messages with him during a "texting argument" about this. They were innocent, goofy, whatever. But, it's easy enough to hide or delete messages. It's difficult to compare those screen shots to the phone bill because of the time stamps. This was recently, and the contact has gone dark for the past couple of days. My emotions got the best of me, but I'm going to go back to the clueless husband role.

I should say that I don't want a divorce. I love her, and she has been there for me and I for her. The kids would be devastated. Once I gather more information, I will confront her with it and ask her to come to counseling with me.

Here is another aspect of the relationship I didn't mention before. She was/is addicted to romance novels. I'm not talking about the lovey dovey books, but the tie you up and ram my manhood into you type of books. She would read the books in bed, and roll over on me eager to have sex even if I'm almost asleep. At first, I thought it was great. Then I got to thinking, it's not ME that's turning her on. She was climbing on me with the scenes and characters of those books in her mind. I dug into her Kindle and Nook and found literally hundreds of erotica books. Being in charge of the money, I saw that she spent about $150 in just two months on these books. Keep in mind, these are e-books which are $1-$10 that the most or $15 for a box set. We did have a talk about that one.

Being 45, I'm feeling old. I don't have "it" like I used to. There used to be a time women would flirt with me in front of my wife. I'm in pretty good shape, but I'm getting older and I have quite a bit of gray. I have no desire to start over and date again, and I want to keep this marriage together.

I will keep you all updated. I hope this post finds someone else in the same situation. I hope this has a good ending.

Thanks everyone!

MWP


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## BetrayedDad

MWP said:


> Being 45, I'm feeling old. I don't have "it" like I used to. There used to be a time women would flirt with me in front of my wife. I'm in pretty good shape, but I'm getting older and I have quite a bit of gray.


Don't sell yourself short bud. If you're in decent shape with a decent job you can scoop up a loyal 30 something no problem. 

Don't let fear prevent you from walking away if you find out she has been unfaithful. Hopefully, you find out it's nothing. 

Good Luck.


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## 225985

anchorwatch said:


> *lim·er·ence*
> 
> noun PSYCHOLOGY
> the state of being infatuated or obsessed with another person, typically experienced involuntarily and characterized by a strong desire for reciprocation of one's feelings but not primarily for a sexual relationship.


IMO This one is really REALLY tough to get over. Limerence is under-discussed here at TAM.


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## bandit.45

Healthcare workers, cops and teachers are some of the worst offenders out there. Do not think your wife is immune.


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## LucasJackson

Good luck, my man. As a cop and former 03 dumb dumb (sorry, couldn't resist) I know you can handle the douche if the time comes. 0341 here. Forward Observer. Anyway, stay vigilant. Be more active with her. Maybe you two got too comfortable. Go out this weekend and do something together you've never done before. Don't be passive about this. So much easier to nip now then deal with cheating/divorce later.


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## MWP

Yeah, what the hell were we thinking? Gluttons for punishment! Thanks for serving, be safe.


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## MWP

Does anyone have any idea how much a PI costs?


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

You need to follow what you learned in the Corps....improvise, adapt and overcome. Use your skills to get to heart of the matter. Get all facts before confrontation occurs. My take is she is gaslighting you big time.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

MWP said:


> Does anyone have any idea how much a PI costs?


It varies most are $150 per hour in Nashville area


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## SouthernViking

Hey Marine, I would like to offer my 2 cents. Flat out tell her to cut the communication off with him except those that are professional. Tell her it bothers you and you feel it best if it ends and you would want her to tell you the same if roles were reversed.
Try joining the local Marine Corps League and go to socials so she can interact with couples that way. 
Pray you get it squared away brother. Semper Fi


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## Bongo

Lots of Marines here. You guys are, generally, pretty alpha. Yet,the cheating still takes place.
So,what is it that wives want? Alpha,beta,what?


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## PhillyGuy13

Shut it down hard. I heard "we're just friends" excuses. Call me jealous, but I put my foot down and said no way. 3 years later it appears I averted disaster. The hiccup for you is they work together.

It may not be physical. She may not even think it's more than friendship. But she's spending a ton of time and energy that should be going to you and the family texting him. Has she ever used the term "work husband"? 

She's not going to willingly show you anything incriminating. You'll have to find it yourself. Check the phone when she is sleeping. Look for chat apps - snapchat whatsapp etc. look in the App Store and see if she has downloaded them and deletes them before she gets home. A cloud symbol indicates she's downloaded them and deleted them.

Does she play online games? There are chat features there. Words with friends etc. 

Keep quiet, act like you've forgetton the situation. Look and listen.

How has she been in the bedroom? More active, less, the same?

PI cost me 400-500 for 2+ days of mostly hotel surveillance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VladDracul

MWP said:


> I know there's not much love for my profession right now, but I'll just say it. I'm a police officer


Let me tell you this my man. Police officers, in my observation, are being treated like you hear about many betrayed spouses. They get blamed and are taking a hit for somebody else's f-ing around.


----------



## jsmart

Satya said:


> You are her husband and have been for a while. I*f she was never a foodie before, you can be sure that she's only pretending to be a foodie for him, to gain interest and create something for them to bond over. *It keeps things from being "boring" and signals to him that she has something in common. *It's the very stuff of early dating and courting days.*.. Duh!
> 
> *She's doing what a lot of women do - become mutable for the guy they are trying to impress*. She may not even be doing it purposely or with real malicious intent. By that I mean that she knows exactly what she's doing, but she may not have any idea of the snowball effect this will and can have. Once you start rolling......


Yea, when your wife starts changing her habits, she could be lining up her personality with someone else. When all of a sudden they're into something that they never were before, that should make your spider senses tingle. I'm talking about all of a sudden liking a new type of music or taking up an interest in a new art or hobby. This foodie interest fits in that category.


----------



## VladDracul

Bongo said:


> If men could read women's minds, I think they might be shocked at their interest in sex, variety and the lack of a need for emotional attachment.





BetrayedDad said:


> I disagree on a minor point. SOME women have a lack of a need for emotional attachment. Other women can't be aroused by a man without some type of emotional connection first.


Here's the thing. Even if your girl has no emotional attachment to her partner in recreational sex, that doesn't mean she has emotional attachment or a high level of romantic interest in you. If fact, if she's catting around and has emotional attachment to anybody, its not likely you.


----------



## jsmart

Her saying that "he's not like that." doesn't sound to reassuring. Does that mean she would be game if he were? This is looking like an EA where she thinks she's not doing anything wrong. 

You need to verify that these lunches are with a group and not some afternoon delight. Get a friend or acquaintance to follow them at lunch. I also would get a VAR velcroed under passenger seat. She may have a friend that she confides in or is getting egged on by. 

I'm sensing that you need to up your game. I recommend you get the Married Man Sex Life Primer. It's a guide on being a better man to attract your wife. If you're wife is preferring to talk to this guy, you need to increase the attraction level. When a woman is really into you, she's not going to be texting or calling some other dude. The fact that she's texting and calling him so much, means she's into him. Being a doctor is high status and woman are drawn to status and power.


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## 2asdf2

I am sorry you are in the spot I was once. Your post brought back memories of 40 years ago.

My "healthcare worker" WW carried on a EA/PA for over a year with a doctor almost exclusively while working.

Healthace facilities have a zillion locked doors to offices and cubbyholes and the doctors oftern have access that most other employees don't.

A PI is going to have a tough time penetrating that environment if the hookups (if there are any) are taking place at work.

Start an "undies sureveillance" program in case the worst is going on and she is leaving evidence there.

Don't confront until you have strong evidence.

I hope you are mistaken and it turns out to be platonic. But remember that the Docs are the royalty of the healthcare environment and have the status of rock stars.

We all know about rock stars....


----------



## BetrayedDad

VladDracul said:


> Here's the thing. Even if your girl has no emotional attachment to her partner in recreational sex, that doesn't mean she has emotional attachment or a high level of romantic interest in you. If fact, if she's catting around and has emotional attachment to anybody, its not likely you.


Tell that to these guys who take their remorseless wives back. They will never accept that. It's too much of a mind fvck for them because it's takes away their illusion of choice. That somehow their wives still deep down loved them and still chose them in the end while the whole time Chad was plowing them every chance he got. They hang their hats on this fantasy.


----------



## Spicy

This is the stuff that makes me hate technolgy...it makes it so easy to cheat, but it also makes it so easy to eat yourself alive with worry.

Here is my take- if all there is to this story is what you wrote (meaning she is not using a burner phone, she doesn't have other chatting apps on her phone or tablet etc, she isn't chatting with him on Facebook, sneaking around and banging him or whatever) this is what I would do...

You need to straight up tell her you find her relationship with him to be inappropriate, and any and all contact outside of work has to stop. Tell her exactly how it makes you feel, and that if she came to you feeling this way about a female do-worker of yours, you would stop contact just simply out of respect for her, and that you want her to do the same. I also think the testing during the day needs to stop. Unless her phone is issued to her by the medical facility, (which doesn't appear to be the case) there should be no need for him to text her on her personal phone. I could be totally wrong on that, but it would seem odd that she would have to use her personal phone for that...


I think it is feasible that she is just friends with him. It has been ultimately only a handful of texts, of which you have read, and there has been no flirting or sexting. Maybe there personalities click, and since she knows he's a foodie, she shared a couple pics, innocent enough. It is no longer innocent if it is hurting your though.

I have male friends. I have texted with them some. Never, ever did anyone involved do anything inappropriate as we are all married. BUT if my DH ever was uncomfortable with that, I would never do it again. 

Is it possible that she is having an EA? Yes, absolutely it is.
Is it possible they are just friends and workmates? Yes, it absolutely is.

I just don't think that we can crucify everyone because there are a few signs that _could_ be cheating. You are not stupid. Your gut gave you the alert. You are on it like Blue Bonnett. Rightly so. You didn't put your head in the sand. Stay alert, continue to pay close attention. 

You are a good, wise husband. That's what I am hearing. I also am hearing that you have a good wife. I wish your family the best.


----------



## TRy

MWP said:


> She says he’s “like a brother” and “just friends”. She also got upset about the move and said that he’s the only friend she has. Man, it made me feel bad and like a jerk! I felt like I wasn’t allowing her to have her own friends, but my concern remains that it’s a guy!
> 
> The reason this bothers me is because throughout our marriage, my wife has always had the opinion that men and women cannot be “just friends”, that something sexual is always possible. My wife is the jealous type, and I thought this was to prevent me from talking to other women. But now, I’m confused. I even texted that to her, “What happened to men and women can’t be just friends?” She did not address that comment and blamed my other stressors for me being upset and that I was picking on her.


 First, the other man (OM) is not her brother. Since he is also not a long time friend that she grew up with since childhood, for her to expect to be able to treat him like a family member is alarming. I hate to say this, but this claim is very common among people in an emotional affair (EA), because it allows them to rationalize their emotional connection to the EA partner without guilt. I would call bull on this to her and tell her why.



MWP said:


> Just to be sure, I looked at the text messages on her phone and noticed they also talk about where to go for lunch. When I asked her about this, she says often a group goes out together for lunch. What really got me curious was that she first said that she “never goes to lunch alone” with him, but then later said “she rarely goes to lunch alone” during the same conversation.


Dating is two people of the opposition sex that would be viable candidates to be mates, spending time alone together to get to know each other better in order to give each other the opportunity to develop feelings for each. Most dates do not involve sex, and many do not even involve kissing. What she is doing when she goes to lunch alone with her EA partner is called a date. Perhaps he wins her over or perhaps he does not, but those are the options involved in all dating.



MWP said:


> Out of concern for our marriage, I again took a look at her text messages when I got the opportunity. I saw that the pictures were of food that she was eating and they spoke a lot about restaurants. I never knew my wife to be a foodie, but she sure appeared like it. They would send restaurant recommendations back and forth, pictures of menus and food, etc. Normally, that would not be a concern. But, she sent quite a few messages while she was out of town but did not text me.
> 
> When I asked her about this, she said that she didn’t think I would be interested in the type of food she was eating. This is when the hairs started standing up on the back of my neck. She was sharing an interest with a male co-worker, outside of normal business hours.


 When people are interested in someone of the opposite sex, they will look for excuses to talk to each other and even fake common interests in order to have a reason to do so. I cannot tell you how many of my friends thought that their girlfriends were interested in football, only to find out later that these girlfriends would lose this interest in football soon after they got married.

According to a 2012 article in Scientific American titled ‘Men and Women Can’t Be “Just Friends”’ which cited a University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire, USA, study published in JSPR (Journal of Social and Personal Relationships), men and women have a completely different view of their opposite sex friends. The article states that ‘New research suggests that there may be some truth to this possibility—that we may think we’re capable of being “just friends” with members of the opposite sex, but the opportunity (or perceived opportunity) for “romance” is often lurking just around the corner’.


----------



## Thor

MWP said:


> Once I gather more information, I will confront her with it and ask her to come to counseling with me.


Be careful with the confrontation idea. You don't have to prove anything to her. We commonly see here where a betrayed husband feels some need to prove to her that she is having an affair. She already knows she is having an affair! She denies it, she gaslights him, and she blame shifts to him. So he somehow thinks he has to prove to her like they're in a courtroom that she is having the affair.

Your wife almost certainly knows she has crossed a line with Dr. Foodie. In the very early parts of an EA it is possible to feel a bit of euphoria about the other person without recognizing you've developed an emotional attachment to them. It might seem like this person is sexy, or funny, or a new good friend. But pretty soon they are hiding what they are doing and rationalizing it as "Just Friends".

Your wife knows she's crossed that line, but she doesn't want to admit it to you. Thus the gaslighting, shaming, and denials.

The fact is this guy's interest in your wife bothers you. It doesn't matter if everything is totally innocent or if they're having an affair already, you have the right to ask her to cut off all unnecessary contact with him _because it bothers you_. You have the right to be bothered by what's going on _just because it bothers you_.

You don't have to prove anything to your wife. You don't have to prove you have "good reason" to be bothered, nor do you have to prove she's doing something wrong or violating some rule.

One of the compromises we make when we get married is we cannot have opposite sex friendships to the extent we did when single. Even if everything is above board, your wife does not get to have male friends if it bothers you. We all have ideas on what is "over the line", and this guy has crossed the line for you. Many would agree with you, too, so you aren't way out on the extremes with your feelings on this.

The reason to investigate is to get the truth so that you can make a fully informed decision. You don't investigate to gather proof to show your wife she is having an affair of some sort. You confront in order to shock her out of the affair and/or to make the affair public and difficult to continue. If you find proof of something which exceeds your willingness to remain married to her, no confrontation is necessary, you simply file for divorce.


----------



## Bongo

Spicy said:


> This is the stuff that makes me hate technolgy...it makes it so easy to cheat, but it also makes it so easy to eat yourself alive with worry.
> 
> Here is my take- if all there is to this story is what you wrote (meaning she is not using a burner phone, she doesn't have other chatting apps on her phone or tablet etc, she isn't chatting with him on Facebook, sneaking around and banging him or whatever) this is what I would do...
> 
> You need to straight up tell her you find her relationship with him to be inappropriate, and any and all contact outside of work has to stop. Tell her exactly how it makes you feel, and that if she came to you feeling this way about a female do-worker of yours, you would stop contact just simply out of respect for her, and that you want her to do the same. I also think the testing during the day needs to stop. Unless her phone is issued to her by the medical facility, (which doesn't appear to be the case) there should be no need for him to text her on her personal phone. I could be totally wrong on that, but it would seem odd that she would have to use her personal phone for that...
> 
> 
> I think it is feasible that she is just friends with him. It has been ultimately only a handful of texts, of which you have read, and there has been no flirting or sexting. Maybe there personalities click, and since she knows he's a foodie, she shared a couple pics, innocent enough. It is no longer innocent if it is hurting your though.
> 
> I have male friends. I have texted with them some. Never, ever did anyone involved do anything inappropriate as we are all married. BUT if my DH ever was uncomfortable with that, I would never do it again.
> 
> Is it possible that she is having an EA? Yes, absolutely it is.
> Is it possible they are just friends and workmates? Yes, it absolutely is.
> 
> I just don't think that we can crucify everyone because there are a few signs that _could_ be cheating. You are not stupid. Your gut gave you the alert. You are on it like Blue Bonnett. Rightly so. You didn't put your head in the sand. Stay alert, continue to pay close attention.
> 
> You are a good, wise husband. That's what I am hearing. I also am hearing that you have a good wife. I wish your family the best.


I agree with much of this. However,let'not ignore her long held,staunch belief that men and women cannot just be friends and her dismissiveness when confronted with this apparent inconsistency. Very hard to explain this about face and her failure to explain.


----------



## MattMatt

I thought that your were possibly overreacting. Until I read that your wife has done a total switch round on her attitude to male female friendships.

What she is doing stinks like yesterday's fish in this morning's rubbish.

Be careful! Investigate in secret.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

Thor said:


> Be careful with the confrontation idea. You don't have to prove anything to her. We commonly see here where a betrayed husband feels some need to prove to her that she is having an affair. She already knows she is having an affair! She denies it, she gaslights him, and she blame shifts to him. So he somehow thinks he has to prove to her like they're in a courtroom that she is having the affair.





Thor said:


> The fact is this guy's interest in your wife bothers you. It doesn't matter if everything is totally innocent or if they're having an affair already, you have the right to ask her to cut off all unnecessary contact with him _because it bothers you_. You have the right to be bothered by what's going on _just because it bothers you_.





Thor said:


> One of the compromises we make when we get married is we cannot have opposite sex friendships to the extent we did when single. Even if everything is above board, your wife does not get to have male friends if it bothers you. We all have ideas on what is "over the line", and this guy has crossed the line for you.


 This is an excellent post. If you get noting else out of this thread, read the above quotes from Thor's post a few times until you fully get it. My favorite part is where he says "You don't have to prove anything to her. We commonly see here where a betrayed husband feels some need to prove to her that she is having an affair. She already knows she is having an affair! She denies it, she gaslights him, and she blame shifts to him. So he somehow thinks he has to prove to her like they're in a courtroom that she is having the affair."


----------



## Evinrude58

Your wife is investing time and thoughts on another man. Regardless of what she may want you to believe, it's wrong and is definitely capable of destroying her romantic feelings for you. 

It needs to stop. You need to stop feeling guilty for the move. If your wife can't make female friends, she isn't trying very hard. 

I would advise against losing your temper, however. These kinds of things need to be dealt with calmly and in a cold manner, such as handing her divorce papers, or an ultimatum. I wouldn't doubt at this point she would be happy to receive them. She's losing interest in you.

to stand by and accept this behavior is not wise. Do something decisive that will have consequences of this relationship with the doc continues. And accept nothing less than transparency. I like the popping in for lunch idea. That would tell you all you need to know
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Archangel2

MWP said:


> ..Being 45, I'm feeling old. I don't have "it" like I used to...
> MWP


 @MWP 
You are getting great advice here. I do not feel qualified to add to what's already been given other than to say you must be willing to lose your marriage to save it.

Take it from me, someone who is 65+(the very thought of writing that is sobering). You are still young. You have your whole life ahead of you. If things go south, there will be many women your age who would give anything to commit to a quality person like you.


----------



## LucasJackson

SouthernViking said:


> Hey Marine, I would like to offer my 2 cents. Flat out tell her to cut the communication off with him except those that are professional. Tell her it bothers you and you feel it best if it ends and you would want her to tell you the same if roles were reversed.
> Try joining the local Marine Corps League and go to socials so she can interact with couples that way.
> Pray you get it squared away brother. Semper Fi


This was my feeling and I second this. Nip this in the bud now. Don't sit back passively spying letting their relationship grow. If you had cancer would you sit back and watch it grow to make sure it was cancer? No. You nip it. Nip it now.


----------



## SunCMars

Bongo said:


> Folks differ in their opinion on this. But. to me, if her pants are talked off, she has a proclivity for this and you might want to reconsider if you want to play warden going forward.
> For me, I would prefer giving her enough rope to allow for discerning this underlying proclivity. Then, I could plan my future with knowledge of what she is capable.


You play the lie detecting bongo well!

i have always thought about posting this response myself. 

Problem?

A betrayed spouse would have to be cool, detached and uncaring.

Most who come here are none of those things. Else, why ask for advice?

As observing Avatars we can sometimes have that detachment, OP...likely cannot.


----------



## Archangel2

Where is @marduk when we need him?


----------



## Bongo

SunCMars said:


> You play the lie detecting bongo well!
> 
> i have always thought about posting this response myself.
> 
> Problem?
> 
> A betrayed spouse would have to be cool, detached and uncaring.
> 
> Most who come here are none of those things. Else, why ask for advice?
> 
> As observing Avatars we can sometimes have that detachment, OP...likely cannot.


I was able to do this and do not hold myself out as the epitome of self control. It did not take too long to bear fruit,with a PI who donated his services. Best thing I could have done to discern my XW's true nature and it brought me peace with my decision to divorce.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

MWP said:


> So am I stressing over nothing?


Certainly not stressing over nothing. No real guarantee it isn't more than simple colleagues and new friends who are bored....BUT.
He is obviously filling an emotional and communication need for your wife. In turn, she has clearly relegated you to familiar/roommate status, rather than loved one/equal partner. Eventually, both of you will find the nature of your relationship unfulfilling.

Sadly, you no long rank as important enough to make demands or challenge her activity based on your relationship alone. You'll have to completely up your game (and I ain't talking doing housework, b...h) to win her attention back. Effectively re-sparking your relationship anew. One possible alley to look at is going on joint break away with the pair of you AND friend and his wife. Then you will be able to assess the relationship he has with his wife, and it will open communications with his wife, so if you do raise concerns, you possibly have an ally.


----------



## straightshooter

Everytime I read the "He's Just A Friend" line I have to cringe. Now none of us here knows for sure what the hell is happening but here is what we do know
(1) your GUT is churning enough that you have sought out a forum of total strangers to share your story with. The saying that keeps getting repeated on every forum on infidelity is to "TRUST YOUR GUT"
(2) your wife and Doctor friend happen to be in a profession that while it is one of the most vital and most valued in our society, also produces and above average rate of infidelity, and there are a bunch of reasons for that that you can google.
(3) you work different shifts so there is a ton of opportunity
(4) she is defensive and dismissal of your concerns.
(5) the late night after hours texting, hiding of phone, changing passwords are ALL huge red flags and you can google that one also.
So anyone claiming you have no reason to be concerned is playing ostrich.

Now the problem you have is she is now alerted that you are watching and suspicious. That means a couple of things
(1) if they are physically cheating it is going further underground
(2) you will be in limbo unless YOU TAKE ACTION, and yes that means doing ANYTHING necessary to find out the truth.

You need a GPS on her car and a VAR in it, and you will find out shortly if you have any reasons to be concerned. 
If her doctor friend is an experienced cheater you also need to look for a "burner" phone someplace where you would ordinarily never look on a regular basis, like her lingerie drawer or closets or hidden in her car.

Now one little last tidbit. She is still your wife at this point and sharing your home with you. You cannot control her, but you can control you. She basically has thrown down the gauntlet and has told you that she will have her boyfriend regardless of how you feel about it.

You have the right to tell her that she can have any friend she wants to but NOT as your wife. You can kick the hornets nest a little and see what flies out.

The worst thing you can do is ignore your gut here and put your head in the sand and HOPE . And get this crap out of your head that he is married with kids and there fore would not do this cheating bit. The overwhelming of cheaters who are married my friend do have kids so get that notion of him out of your head.

But the real problem is your wife and her basically blowing you off and telling you to suck it up and leave her alone about her "friend". Do that at your own risk


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

straightshooter said:


> (2) your wife and Doctor friend happen to be in a profession that while it is one of the most vital and most valued in our society, also produces and above average rate of infidelity, and there are a bunch of reasons for that that you can google.


I think you mean "overrated" and "overpaid". What's the odds on you using your cellphone more frequently than you use your doctor. Or even your car, and a good mechanic is a big deal (and way under-rated). Cause yeah, doctors _solve_ so many diseases (scientists and engineers are the ones who _cure_ and _prevent_ small pox, choleria, etc ; not those parasites called medical doctors. doctors just get rich of the ones that haven't been solved yet - heck most of the work is done by nurses.


----------



## straightshooter

Let's not make this a TJ on the medical profession. The same comment could be made about policemen, firefighters , military, anyone under stress and crazy hours where there is a bonding because of that.

Let's concentrate on helping OP and not start a dialogue on doctors or nurses, the majority of whom are dedicated, hard working, and caring people


----------



## drifting on

Mwp

Looks like you've got a workplace affair brewing here. Going to lunch, texting on more then you, just friends, like a brother, pictures of food, oh it's an affair. If I were you, take a few days off, go to her work, take her to lunch along with dr. Feelgood. Show them the amount of texts, then demand they both hand their phones to you. Tell them if it's innocent nothing will be deleted. If it's deleted, you or Mrs feelgood weren't supposed to see them. At this point call Mrs feelgood from mr feelgoods phone, tell her who you are having lunch with and why. Tell her she may want to start asking her husband some details. 

Hang up abruptly and look at OM, say uh oh, your wife is not happy now. Your wife will be extremely upset, tell her to call work and that she has a family emergency she must attend to now. Take your wife to her car, you keep her phone, follow her home. Once at home you call a phone store, tell them you need to retrieve deleted texts. Tell her you will return in one hour. Leave with her phone. Let her stew for awhile, then come home with a pay as you go phone with no texting capabilities. Tell her you left her phone at the store, don't say which one, and tell her there were so many texts to OM that it will take several hours to print out. 

The next day tell her you are going to pick up the printed deleted texts. Ask if there is anything you need to know. any I love you, any physical contact i.e. Held hands, hugged, arm around each other, kissed, anything. Tell her if you read it the marriage is over , if she tells you, you will consider reconciliation. Tell her to think hard, tell her the truth is all you will accept, then call OMW and say you are getting a printout of all the texts. Tell her this includes the deleted texts and ask if she wants a copy. 

Ask OMW if her husband admitted to anything. Just keep saying very interesting, my wife hasn't told me that, and then say, he didn't want to text but she kept texting him and he is really tired of it. Hang up and start to head for the door, tell her this should be a hell of a day and slam the door. Go to her work and talk to dr feelgood. Tell him your wife has informed you of the deleted texts and admitted to an affair. Then tell him you called his wife and are going to meet her for coffee. Ask if he would like to say anything on his behalf, and that after you talk to his wife you are going to expose the affair. 

What you are doing is bluffing, but turning up the pressure at an intense rate. Having an affair, being a doctor, he will not want this to see the light of day. Ask him to tell his story and that it must be the same as your wife's or you expose publicly. This OM is your enemy, enemies deserve no mercy, crush them both hard. 

Go back home and tell your wife the OM told all. She started the affair, he only wanted some sex, the sex was actually terrible, he threw her under the bus, and that you have the deleted text messages safely stored. Tell your wife you made a copy for OM's wife. Then tell her you are meeting an attorney tomorrow to start divorce proceedings. Then leave the house, return hours later, tell your wife to pack a bag. But before she packs a bag she is to call her parents. Tell your wife you already know what happened but that she will now tell her parents. If she refuses, tell her ok, I was hoping I wouldn't have to make this call. walk back out of the house, call her parents, and tell them what she has been doing. 

Workplace affairs suck Mwp, I know, my wife had one. Thing is they can talk at work without you ever knowing. Don't sit back, launch an offensive attack that will cripple the both of them. I so wish I had done this myself, but I hadn't found TAM yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

@OP: Even if you assume that it is not yet a physical affair (PA) or an emotional affair (EA), it is heading that way, as this is the path that would be followed. Again assuming that it is not already a PA or EA, it would be foolish to watch her go down this path with the other man (OM), waiting for something to happen, before you take action and put a stop to it.

In Russian Roulette there is only 1 of 6 chambers loaded, so the odds are way in your favor that it will not go off and you would live. Yet the down side is so great, that few willingly play. This is similar to your situation. The down side of it leading to an affair is so great, that she should understand why you would not want to willingly play.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Malaise

Spicy said:


> You need to straight up tell her you find her relationship with him to be inappropriate, and any and all contact outside of work has to stop. Tell her exactly how it makes you feel, and that if she came to you feeling this way about a female do-worker of yours, you would stop contact just simply out of respect for her, and that you want her to do the same.


This


----------



## See_Listen_Love

mwp said:


> as soon as she wakes up, the phone goes with her into the bathroom.


This is a Super Red Flag. How many times I have read this in posts about cheaters.



> i should say that i don't want a divorce.


Then prepare to defend yourself against discovering the PA. It is already a heavy EA. Take all measures you can to break the affair.



> being 45, i'm feeling old. I don't have "it" like i used to. There used to be a time women would flirt with me in front of my wife. I'm in pretty good shape, but i'm getting older and i have quite a bit of gray. I have no desire to start over and date again, and i want to keep this marriage together.




Start the 180 to grow to feel better and be a new man.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

straightshooter said:


> Let's not make this a TJ on the medical profession. The same comment could be made about policemen, firefighters , military, anyone under stress and crazy hours where there is a bonding because of that.
> 
> Let's concentrate on helping OP and not start a dialogue on doctors or nurses, the majority of whom are dedicated, hard working, and caring people


Oh sure, when miltary get paid like doctors then I'll happily agree with you (good a bunch of miiltary buddies, so I know a bunch of real goes on behind the brochures there too).

You want to "not make it about medical profession" then don't start up with the caring, "there for the patient" crap about most doctors. (and yes my younger brother and his wife are both doctors - both work *4* days a week, and have international holidays at _least_ EVERY year). No real responsibility if the patient doesn't get fully cured either. 
You don't want to start the crap - you don't go there.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Malaise said:


> This


Won't work because it's effectively an ultimatium against her, forcing her to challenge better her innocent nice friend and the annoying pushy husband - at best she'll stop seeing him but really resent the marriage and things will go from bad to worse.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Malaise said:


> This





Bongo said:


> Lots of Marines here. You guys are, generally, pretty alpha. Yet,the cheating still takes place.
> So,what is it that wives want? Alpha,beta,what?


Marines aren't Alpha. Hardly the big pay, and unless they got some rank they're barely above ground pounders.


----------



## rafaelandy

after reading all the replies you got here, i was thinking you have enough advice and inputs to make an informed decision.

but i'll add my 1 cent anyway.

she may or may not be aware of it, but your wife is ALREADY in an EMOTIONAL AFFAIR (at least). the same exact thing happened with my WW, as with many other people here. 

many AFFAIRS START with "JUST BEING FRIENDS". my WW said the same "...we're JUST FRIENDS..." thing and excuses. she exhibited the same behaviors. and i also adopted the same attitude as yours -BIG MISTAKE.

STOP this NOW before it's too late. 

if she doesn't listen to your concerns, perhaps you can try to suggest to let her read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. it might do the trick of "waking" her up. 

if still she doesn't stop her "friendship" with this man, then i guess you have to PREPARE yourself for the worst because your wife's "friendship with this guy has a HIGH PROBABILTY of turning into a FULL-BLOWN AFFAIR.

there are too many RED FLAGS. 

good luck...


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Do place a VAR in her vehicle. While you think she does not talk much, she could have a burner phone. In these situations I learned to expect the unexpected. Be vigilant Marine!


----------



## BetrayedDad

SunCMars said:


> A betrayed spouse would have to be cool, detached and uncaring.
> 
> Most who come here are none of those things. Else, why ask for advice?


Astute point. Though what you call detached and uncaring, I call having self respect and dignity.

Men of action (or even women, @adriana was a good example) don't really bother with TAM. Waffling around and asking for some magic formula to make everything "go away". They just put their POS cheating spouses on the curb like the trash they are and walk away head held high.


----------



## RWB

"Just Friends"... I wonder how many at CWI have heard that?


----------



## VladDracul

The primary danger I see is that women can safely be just friends with a man if the man is of lower status. If the man is of higher status, and meets her other minimum qualifications, there's a fair chance the woman will be attracted to him where she wouldn't be if he were of lower to equal status.
You have that situation in this case. The saying that power is the ultimate aphrodisiac applies primarily to women in that women will tend to be drawn to men with power that they wouldn't give a second look at otherwise. Doctors are the lead dogs in the health care business, and this woman is friends with him.
I had a friend once that was a school principal and dated a number of teachers and consultants, ultimately marrying one who later became a principal herself and assistant superintendent at a bordering school district. (after achieving her doctorate) He said she worshiped the ground he walked on until her position and power exceed his and she ultimately ditched him.


----------



## RWB

MWP said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My wife says that *he would never do anything because “he loves his wife too much”. *Does this mean they’re talking about each other’s marriages?
> 
> *She says he’s “like a brother” and “just friends”. **She also got upset about the move and said that he’s the only friend she has*. Man, it made me feel bad and like a jerk! I felt like I wasn’t allowing her to have her own friends, but my concern remains that it’s a guy!


MWP,

Textbook Cheater Speak 101...

Wow! You got a "Just Friends" and a Blame-Shifter all in one. The Flags are waiving like half time at HS football game. Doc McLovin has her slipped her panties down to the ankles and your concerned about "Just Friends". 

Time to wake up brother... Affairs move at light speed.


----------



## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> Astute point. Though what you call detached and uncaring, I call having self respect and dignity.
> 
> Men of action (or even women, @adriana was a good example) don't really bother with TAM. Waffling around and asking for some magic formula to make everything "go away". They just put their POS cheating spouses on the curb like the trash they are and walk away head held high.


And then never get over it for the next 30+ years. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rafaelandy

VladDracul said:


> The primary danger I see is that women can safely be just friends with a man if the man is of lower status.


well, probably true most of the time, but my WW is an international 

airline FLIGHT PURSER and she did it with a married BELLHOP. 

it's not that i'm putting them down. they ("lower status") have

decent jobs. but it would be more prudent if we keep our "radars" up whether 

our women have "friendships" with a "low status" guy or a "high 

status" man.


----------



## Evinrude58

Status is not all that important. What matters is that the AP has access to the spouse, they give the WS attention, attention, attention. That's what they're wanting--- attention, fantasy, excitement...... Things they can't necessarily get from their BS because they see them every day, they already know all about them, sex is old hat, the BS is busy making a living and doing their thing because they believe their WS is as well....... So how could a BS possibly compete with a "new" person who constantly gives them whatever they're craving? That's what AP's do-- the same thing the BS did when they were courting-- making the WS feel like they are the center of the universe. THAT is all the AP has to do. They don't have to have status, make more money, be attractive, whatever. They just have to give the attention the WS is starving for-- and in truth, is what they aren't really wanting from the BS, since they are boring and old hat.
JMO,
JBJ


----------



## BetrayedDad

MattMatt said:


> And then never get over it for the next 30+ years.


I wouldn't expect a cheater to agree with getting put on the curb.


----------



## LucasJackson

Again, nip it. It's a cancer. No doctor says hey let's sit back and observe this cancer for a while and see if it grows. Nope, once detected, they get aggressive and they nip it. You have a cancer growing in your marriage. Sit and watch it grow or nip it.


----------



## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> Again, nip it. It's a cancer. No doctor says hey let's sit back and observe this cancer for a while and see if it grows. Nope, once detected, they get aggressive and they nip it. You have a cancer growing in your marriage. Sit and watch it grow or nip it.


If it's in the early stages and he's one of the lucky few posters whose caught it early before the affair started then sure. 

The relationship is potentially salvageable with a lot of hard work on both sides.

Everyone is speculating ad nauseam.... 

@MWP STEP 1 is INVESTIGATE. Lay low, pretend everything is fine and dandy so she doesn't put her guard up, and find out by whatever means available HOW DEEP THE RABBIT HOLE GOES.

That's ALL you need to do for now. Then you can decide if this relationship is even salvageable based on how bad the betrayal is. Who knows, I seriously doubt it but maybe he's just a harmless beta orbiter and nothing more. You need to find that out. Clearly, there is SOMETHING going on....


----------



## LucasJackson

BetrayedDad said:


> If it's in the early stages and he's one of the lucky few posters whose caught it early before the affair started then sure.
> 
> The relationship is potentially salvageable with a lot of hard work on both sides.
> 
> Everyone is speculating ad nauseam....
> 
> @MWP STEP 1 is INVESTIGATE. Lay low, pretend everything is fine and dandy so she doesn't put her guard up, and find out by whatever means available HOW DEEP THE RABBIT HOLE GOES.
> 
> That's ALL you need to do for now. Then you can decide if this relationship is even salvageable based on how bad the betrayal is. Who knows, I seriously doubt it but maybe he's just a harmless beta orbiter and nothing more. You need to find that out. Clearly, there is SOMETHING going on....


I just worry that while he's spending this time laying low, Dr. Douche Bag is making his moves. Digging in deeper, getting closer to OP's wife. By the time he decides to step up and attempt to nip it, it might be too late. Their nasty affair has been consummated and she's lost to Dr. Douche Bag.

I do see the value in what you're saying but I hate to watch a cancer grow when I know this devil dog can nip it in the bud.


----------



## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> I just worry that while he's spending this time laying low, Dr. Douche Bag is making his moves. Digging in deeper, getting closer to OP's wife. By the time he decides to step up and attempt to nip it, it might be too late. Their nasty affair has been consummated and she's lost to Dr. Douche Bag.
> 
> I do see the value in what you're saying but I hate to watch a cancer grow when I know this devil dog can nip it in the bud.


1) He confronts this guy without knowing the facts, and nothing really is going on, then she is humiliated at work and he looks like a complete fool.

2) Or worse he confronts, something IS going on, and they simply deny. He has no evidence and now the affair is pushed underground because they know he's onto them.

3) No one can watch their spouse 24/7. If he can't even trust her to keep a guy out of her crotch without his close supervision then she's not a mate worth keeping. 

4) Took me two days to catch my ex once I started snooping around. Shouldn't take him more than a week or two to get a pretty good idea if she's cheating on him.

He's got to find out what the hell is REALLY going on first and I will agree as quickly as possible.


----------



## Hicks

I look at things differently than others.

You already have enough information to know that you must make changes in the way you operate.

1. Your wife reads romance novels. This means she is getting her sexual needs met outside of her marriage to you. Probably has alot to do with her feelings for you which as alot to do with how you behave in life.

2. You already know that men and women cannot be friends. She knows it, you know it, and everyone on this board knows it. You already know that no good to your marriage comes from her friendship with this guy. Why, therefore, are you being so analytical and having conversations where her goal is to convince you that this is harmless and your goal is to convince her that it is harmful? When she in the past decreed that "men and women cannot be friends", did your wife just decree it or did she engage in endless debates with you about it?

It's ok to decide that this is wrong, to tell her that you know it is wrong, and let her make choices based on your beliefs.


----------



## Thor

BetrayedDad said:


> If it's in the early stages and he's one of the lucky few posters whose caught it early before the affair started then sure.
> 
> The relationship is potentially salvageable with a lot of hard work on both sides.
> 
> Everyone is speculating ad nauseam....
> 
> @MWP STEP 1 is INVESTIGATE. Lay low, pretend everything is fine and dandy so she doesn't put her guard up, and find out by whatever means available HOW DEEP THE RABBIT HOLE GOES.
> 
> That's ALL you need to do for now. Then you can decide if this relationship is even salvageable based on how bad the betrayal is. Who knows, I seriously doubt it but maybe he's just a harmless beta orbiter and nothing more. You need to find that out. Clearly, there is SOMETHING going on....


I just want to add or clarify that this investigation step need only be a week or two long. VAR and, possibly, GPS should uncover the truth within that short time period.

Additionally, search the house and cars carefully. Very carefully. Review the phone bill, credit card, debit card, and bank records. Review online purchases for gifts or sexy stuff you didn't get the benefit of. Check all her electronic devices for suspicious apps, and look through all the text and email accounts. Be sure to look at the SENT and the TRASH folders, as many people don't cleanse those. Sometimes a device won't be fully synced and they don't realize stuff deleted on one device will still exist on another linked device.

Consider a keylogger on her computer (but since she's in healthcare be cautious on this one). Consider a VAR in the house where she may make phone calls.

Check her browser history. Look for hotels, information regarding cheating, anything to do with sex, and anything to do with affairs or infidelity.

Investigate quickly, especially now she is on to your suspicions.


----------



## SunCMars

> @MWP She has an iPhone, and she pretty much gives me free access. She even allowed me to have my thumbprint on it to unlock it. But, the phone is always with her and there is not much opportunity for me to look through it. kids with it.


She knows she is being watched. This may be to throw you off the trail, or it may be her way of showing [for her] it is merely a friendship. For the OM, the Doctor? I doubt it. What bothers me is she knows you are keeping tabs on you, BECAUSE it bothers YOU. She DOES NOT care enough to stop. HERS and the DOCTORS feelings come first. Sorry, but WTF!



> I have downloaded an iPhone backup application for the PC that can scan and pull items out of a backup file including SMS, phone calls, etc. I have AnyTrans, and I'm trying iExplorer. I need to physically have the phone for this. What I've been telling her is that she has so many good family photos on her phone and I want to put them on the computer so they can be added to our Shutterfly account. That should give me the opportunity to plug it in, let it save the files and then scan through them later. I will then be able to compare the messages to the cell phone bill.


Good job. I hope you have been promoted to Detective.



> As for VAR's, she doesn't talk on the phone much with him...it's mostly texts. I have a Galaxy Tablet that I keep in our bedroom. I've downloaded an app called "Smart Voice Recorder". It is sound activated and can run in the background. I plug it in and set it aside to record, but I haven't picked up anything yet.


She is a smart person. You are a policeman. She knows that. If she is cheating or texting inappropriately, she knows that she must be very clever. If, if, if......keep surveilling. Keep it secret before you give the evidence to the DA......Damn Accountant in your mind.



> I have been seeking counseling lately for other issues, but this one came up. The counselor even called it an EA. Ugh.


Yes, it is. She refuses to let this relationship go. That is all the proof that you need.



> I'm a police officer.


Yea, no scheitz. Your virtual writing comes across my CRT in BLUE!



> But, I don't cross any boundaries with them. I understand that bond, but how does it progress into being a foodie and late-night text messages?


He is her close buddy. I suspect that these are the things that the Doctor finds interesting. She is feeding HIM Kibbles. Stroking him.
Late night messages? She cannot get him out of her mind. Maybe she goes to bed thinking of him. Needs that last fix before going to sleep. Maybe later doing masturbating? She is hooked on the guy....Sorry.



> I forgot to mention this to you guys. Without prompt, she sent me screen shots of a few text messages with him during a "texting argument" about this. They were innocent, goofy, whatever. But, it's easy enough to hide or delete messages. I'm going to go back to the clueless husband role.


Smokescreen.

Again, she is trying to appease you. She knows she is falling in love with this guy. She does not want it to end....you to demand it to end. She is putting him first, her feelings first.



> I should say that I don't want a divorce. I love her, and she has been there for me and I for her.


Good man.
Of course, that is why you are here...for help in turning this around.



> She was/is addicted to romance novels. I'm not talking about the lovey dovey books, but the tie you up and ram my manhood into you type of books.


 @Bingo ....*THIS* is the answer. She loves fantasy....she loves having romantic and sexual thoughts. Her EA with the Doctor is a reflection of this fantasy. She is going through a sexual Mid Life Crisis, MLC. It is so obvious.

You answered your own question.



> Being 45, I'm feeling old. I don't have "it" like I used to.


That is BS. But, no man can compete with a fantasy lover.



> I hope this has a good ending.


So do we. You need to nip this in the bud. Before it goes PA. Do your detective work for another 30 days or so. Then tell her she needs to quit her job. Give her time to get another one in your area. OR- Both of you move to a new area...get her away from this.
He is a Medical Fractitioner. He is poison to your marriage.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Hicks said:


> 1. Your wife reads romance novels. This means she is getting her sexual needs met outside of her marriage to you.


That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? Getting her sexual needs met from fictional novels? Though this is a symptom of a larger problem of unfulfilled needs I will agree.




Hicks said:


> 2. You already know that men and women cannot be friends. She knows it, you know it, and everyone on this board knows it.


I have many female friends. Friendships are fine but I don't text them 15-30 times a day or send them photos. That's when it becomes clear this is MORE than a friendship.


----------



## BetrayedDad

MWP said:


> She has an iPhone, and she pretty much gives me free access. She even allowed me to have my thumbprint on it to unlock it. But, the phone is always with her and there is not much opportunity for me to look through it. As soon as she wakes up, the phone goes with her into the bathroom.


I don't know how I missed this post.

If you have this kind of access to her iphone and she has her apple email address setup up on it you are golden. All you have to do is set up her apple id on another device (make sure you have the password), even an older iphone or ipad, anything that can access imessages. 

When you first do this, an email will be sent to her so you need to be able to intercept and delete it. That's why you need the email access which hopefully she has default set up on her iphone, most people do. It would be best to do all this while she's sleeping. Shouldn't take more than 10 minutes.

Once this is done ANY text sent to her from another iphone will automatically be CC:'d to your second device without her knowing. If the good doctor has an iphone too, you'll know VERY quickly, what's really going on.

Also make sure her "find my iphone" is active and you can use her iphone as a GPS tracking device. Again you'll need her apple id and password for that. If you don't have it, just ask her for it and if she inquires why just casually say, "you wanted to check out a song from ITunes" or something.


----------



## TX-SC

I'm not so sure that this is a full fledged EA or PA at this point. However, she does seem to be positioning for it. At this point you need to make her painfully aware that any indiscretion at all and she will become single. Let her know that you don't cheat and will not stay married to someone who does. Make sure she knows that regardless of what SHE thinks about EAs, that you take them seriously and your response to an EA will be swift and irreversible. 

You then need to contact his wife and talk calmly and rationally about your concerns. Make sure she knows you are concerned but that you don't have proof that it's an affair yet. Then she can monitor from that end while you monitor your wife. If she isn't tech savvy, teach her to check phone records, text history, etc. 

The sad part about this is that even if you stop this affair from happening, you will always have to worry about who will be next.


----------



## LucasJackson

BetrayedDad said:


> 1) He confronts this guy without knowing the facts, and nothing really is going on, then she is humiliated at work and he looks like a complete fool.
> 
> 2) Or worse he confronts, something IS going on, and they simply deny. He has no evidence and now the affair is pushed underground because they know he's onto them.
> 
> 3) No one can watch their spouse 24/7. If he can't even trust her to keep a guy out of her crotch without his close supervision then she's not a mate worth keeping.
> 
> 4) Took me two days to catch my ex once I started snooping around. Shouldn't take him more than a week or two to get a pretty good idea if she's cheating on him.
> 
> He's got to find out what the hell is REALLY going on first and I will agree as quickly as possible.


I remember a story a company gunnery sergeant told us one time when we were having some beers at Soto Cano Airbase in Honduras. The subject was cheating on wives and how about 90% of Marines do it. He told us that when he was younger he did. He said one day he came home and his wife walked up to him and kicked him in the balls really hard. Hard enough to put him on the floor and make him vomit. He didn't know what was going on. She stood over him looking furious. She said I know you're screwing _______. You're going to end that right now and if you ever cheat on me again I will cut your balls off in your sleep and show you what they look like.

He said in 15 years he never once even thought about cheating on her again and they have a great relationship. I think it's possible to nip it.


----------



## MWP

UPDATE

Hello all. Again, thanks for all of your input. I just hope it's my paranoia getting the best of me, but I'll dig deeper to be sure.

I got hold of her phone last night and downloaded a backup onto the PC. It save calls, text messages, photos, etc. There was nothing blaring at me, but who's to say she doesn't "clean up".

I'm still sifting through it, comparing messages to the cell phone bill. There is one thing that surprised me. Messages prior to 6/29 were deleted, so I have nothing on those. There were messages from other people prior to 6/29, so that raised a red flag.

I did this about 4am and put her phone back in place. Stupid me left her screen on her text conversation with him, so that was the first thing she saw when she woke up!

She said that she thought we were past that and was concerned that I was concerned. I remained calm, and kinda dumb. It was tempting to dive right in and storm the castle, but I needed to stay calm and let this blow over.

Since she was in a talking mood, I did tell her that I did notice messages prior to 6/29 were missing. She hesitated and kinda struggled for an answer, then said she did it to clear room off of her phone. Also because she had patient's names in it and needed to get them off of there. Do I buy that? Nope. 

My wife had gone to counseling herself a few weeks ago. She told me that her counselor said that it was OK for her to have male friends, as long as I was OK with it. I hope I didn't slip up and say too much, but I told her that my counselor described it as an EA. I mentioned how I never knew she was a foodie after all of these years. She responded, "You know I love food." Yes, but who doesn't?

We then touched on the lunch situation. I told her how she once said she had been to lunch with him alone only a few times, and then changed it to only once. She said that she will ride with him to pick up food for the group, and that they had only walked across the street for lunch together once. Do I buy that? Nope.

Keep in mind, I'm raging inside and kind of mad at myself for slipping up. But, I remained calm. She did offer to go to counseling with me.

She also mentioned that she didn't want things to be weird when we're together with them. I told her I don't mind hanging out with them as a couple, but it's all of the late night and off-day texts that bother me.

I also talked about how she had always said men and women can't be "just friends". Strangely, she said that she only told me that because I was acting inappropriate with a female years ago. 

We didn't have time to talk long because she had to get to work. I told her we can talk more about it later.

With that said, I've probably gathered all of the information I ever will. Fortunately I was able to capture that data from her phone. Now it's time to sift through it.

I think what bothers me is that we both work 12 hour shifts. That means most of our waking hours are with other people. And the short time she isn't at work, they are texting. 

I have to be honest, a lot of what you all are saying is scaring me. From "it could be the start of an EA" to "it's a full-blown EA" and "might even be a PA". Ugh.

During our conversation, she didn't defend the friendship so I hope that is a good sign. She did express concern for how I felt, or at least appeared to.

So it appears the trail will go cold from now on. If anything else raises concerns when I compare messages with cell phone bills and find other deleted messages, I suppose my next step is to mount a VAR under the seat.


----------



## ButtPunch

MWP said:


> UPDATE
> I suppose my next step is to mount a VAR under the seat.


Do it ASAP! She's deleting texts. 

You will have your answer shortly with a VAR.


----------



## mrsbride

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> I wouldn't expect a cheater to agree with getting put on the curb.


 @BetrayedDad I am going to ignore your attempt to goad me. By forgiving you.


I think someone else said this to you a long time ago... Isn't it time you worked to improve your status?

You have been Betrayed Dad for a long time, now. It's been just a little over three years.


You were betrayed. Yes, most of us -including me- have been there. We were betrayed too. Sometimes more than once.

Is there some way that you could move on? Change from being Betrayed Dad perhaps to Awesome Dad, if that's something you'd feel comfortable with?

You are allowing who you are to be defined by people, or one particular person, who really perhaps never really had your best interests at heart.

Why would you do that? I can guess. _Because she was your soulmate, your best friend, the one true love of your life and she Betrayed you, Dad?_


Sadly it is likely that she was never really the person who you thought she was, or who she pretended to be.


You did not forgive her? Perhaps she was not worthy of your forgiveness?


But she isn't like every other WS. Some of them do deserve to be kicked to the kerb (or curb for those people in America!  ) like you believe your wife deserved.


But some WS do not deserve that fate. Perhaps they have earned a second chance? :scratchhead:


This might seem like an impertinent question, but are you receiving therapy or counselling for the very real psychological traumas that were inflicted upon you?

You seem to be very, very angry all the time. *You are worth much more than that. You need to look after yourself more.* :smthumbup:


I really do wish you well in your quest for a better, more fulfilling life.


----------



## mrsbride

Trust your gut. If you want to fix the problem and continue being married, talk to her about it and establish some reasonable boundaries. If you want to catch her doing wrong and end your marriage, lay low and wait til you have proof of something wrong. She is likely getting something out of this "friendship"- excitement, understanding, attention. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

@ MWP maybe significant, maybe not.

My anti-virus programme keeps humbugging me to delete message which it can do for me. I ignore it, some people might not ignore the mechanical promptings.


----------



## badmemory

Well, since you had a premature confrontation anyway; why didn't you tell her you would *no longer accept* the after hours texts - instead of "it bothers me"?

Why would you even entertain the idea of the two of you continuing to see that couple socially?


----------



## LucasJackson

badmemory said:


> Well, since you had a premature confrontation anyway; why didn't you tell her you would no longer accept the after hours texts - instead of "it bothers me".
> 
> Why would you even entertain the idea of the two of you continuing to see that couple socially?


I agree. His wife even said she had told him about men and women can't be friends when she thought he was acting inappropriately with a female friend years ago, he should have immediately responded with "and now I think you're acting inappropriately with a male friend and I agree with you about men and women being friends. It hurts me and disrespects me as your husband that you want to spend all this time with him." If there's really nothing going on and she loves her husband then she'll immediately end the friendship with this man and have a business-only relationship with him. If she doesn't do that then either something is going on between her and Dr. Douche or she wants something to go on between her and Dr. Douche.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

If she is deleting texts specific to him and not others there is something that she does not want you to see. RED FLAG


----------



## MWP

badmemory said:


> Well, since you had a premature confrontation anyway; why didn't you tell her you would *no longer accept* the after hours texts - instead of "it bothers me"?
> 
> Why would you even entertain the idea of the two of you continuing to see that couple socially?


We only literally had 5 minutes to talk because she had to get to work. We are going to have a more detailed discussion...soon.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

I am of the opinion that since she knows you suspect something they will be more careful. A VAR is your best bet for now. 

She has probably told Dr of your suspicions. It may be advisable to speak to Drs wife about the texting. Bet you she is totally unaware of it


Trust your gut.


----------



## BetrayedDad

MattMatt said:


> @BetrayedDad I am going to ignore your attempt to goad me. By forgiving you.


How about you stop trolling my posts on various threads? Please ignore me. That would be great and keep your forgiveness. I don't need it. I don't know when you became so uncivil but I never had a problem with you before.



MattMatt said:


> You seem to be very, very angry all the time. You are worth much more than that. You need to look after yourself more.


And the "I'm bitter and jaded" thing is getting uber cliché. You don't know sh!t about me. I promise you, on the lives of my children, I couldn't be happier. Dumping my ex was the BEST decision I ever made. I can't say marrying her was the worst because of my two kids.

I simply encourage others to indulge in the happiness I have been given by dumping their remorseless sh!tty spouses. 90% of them are simply NOT worth the trouble. There is PLENTY of joy to be had by getting rid of these toxic people. Codependence is a poison many new betrayed seem to have a real problem breaking. I can certainly relate.

How about you give your two cents, I'll offer mine and the OPs can decide for themselves? I think that's fair.


----------



## harrybrown

so she would be fine if you had a female "friend" like this?

she should change jobs and hand over her phone. why does she text him more than you? at least an EA, most likely a PA.

File for D and see what she does.


----------



## BetrayedDad

MWP said:


> I did notice messages prior to 6/29 were missing. She hesitated and kinda struggled for an answer, then said she did it to clear room off of her phone. Also because she had patient's names in it and needed to get them off of there.


Urgh, you KNOW this is a lie. Don't you..... 



MWP said:


> Do I buy that? Nope.


Good Man.



MWP said:


> I have to be honest, a lot of what you all are saying is scaring me. From "it could be the start of an EA" to "it's a full-blown EA" and "might even be a PA". Ugh.


Lets STOP kidding ourselves. She is cheating on you. At LEAST emotionally. You need to continue to investigate to determine if it's gone physical.

Where is your LINE OP? At what point, does she cross it? Has she crossed it already? Would knowing she was physical with him be enough? You need to ask yourself these HARD questions. What ever you do, don't COMPRISE your integrity.


----------



## TRy

MWP said:


> Since she was in a talking mood, I did tell her that I did notice messages prior to 6/29 were missing. She hesitated and kinda struggled for an answer, then said she did it to clear room off of her phone. Also because she had patient's names in it and needed to get them off of there. Do I buy that? Nope.


 First, the "clear room off of her phone "excuse for erasing text messages is common among people in emotional affairs (EA), and is completely illogical; if you do the math, one iTune song takes up more space on your phone than thousands of text messages. Second, as for the patient information excuse, did they stop seeing patients after 6/29? Also, why not delete only patient information?

Notice how she is already implying your consent when "She said that she thought we were past that and was concerned that I was concerned". Now that you have tipped your hand and discussed it with her, allowing it to continue will be viewed by her as further consent by you. You need to state clearly to her that you are not OK with this other man (OM) and that you do not want her to have a "like a brother" relationship and friendship with this guy. Tell her that it is either already an EA or it is heading that way. Tell her that you do not want to worry and wait for more to happen before putting a stop to it and that it must end now. No more after hours texting. No more going to lunch alone with him. No more going with him alone to pick up lunch for everyone. No more her giving others at her work reason to talk. No more non-business anything.


----------



## BetrayedDad

TRy said:


> Tell her that it is either already an EA or it is heading that way. Tell her that you do not want to worry and wait for more to happen before putting a stop to it and that it must end now. No more after hours texting. No more going to lunch alone with him. No more going with him alone to pick up lunch for everyone. No more her giving others at her work reason to talk. No more non-business anything.


What if EA's aren't a deal breaker for OP but a PA is? He might never get the truth out of her if he tries shuts it down now without completing the investigation. 

I know it's painful OP but for me personally, not knowing if they had sex and taking her back would be a life sentence of resentment. It's up to you.


----------



## LucasJackson

TRy said:


> Notice how she is already implying your consent when "She said that she thought we were past that and was concerned that I was concerned". Now that you have tipped your hand and discussed it with her, allowing it to continue will be viewed by her as further consent by you. You need to state clearly to her that you are not OK with this other man (OM) and that you do not want her to have a "like a brother" relationship and friendship with this guy. Tell her that it is either already an EA or it is heading that way. Tell her that you do not want to worry and wait for more to happen before putting a stop to it and that it must end now. No more after hours texting. No more going to lunch alone with him. No more going with him alone to pick up lunch for everyone. No more her giving others at her work reason to talk. No more non-business anything.


^^^YES. THIS^^^ This is what I've been saying. Nip it in the bud, my man, nip it. Be the king of your castle. If you refuse to step up and fill that role, she'll find another king.


----------



## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> The subject was cheating on wives and how about 90% of Marines do it.


Well.... At least, I'm starting to understand why your trying to work it out with your serial cheating wife now.



LucasJackson said:


> Be the king of your castle. If you refuse to step up and fill that role, she'll find another king.


There are plenty of other kingdoms to rule. Trust me.


----------



## VladDracul

MWP said:


> I also talked about how she had always said men and women can't be "just friends". Strangely, she said that she only told me that because I was acting inappropriate with a female years ago.




First, were you chasing strange pu......errrr......acting inappropriate with another woman? She may have the "whats good for the goose" attitude. 
Now to your advantage you can say, "you got upset about it and now from my perspective, you're going beyond what I did, etc, etc."
In other words the reason for your concerns, and line of questioning, is because if you were ever permitted yourself to reach the depth of friendship she appears to have reached, you'd be in over your head with the woman.
In the final analysis, unless you're just willing to go with the flow and take your chances and replace her if things go south, you're going to have to draw a line in the sand. As with many WS, they had too many options and room to operate initially.


----------



## Abc123wife

You might be able to retrieve those deleted messages depending on what type of phone she has. Someone with more knowledge of this can fill you in. What type of phone does she have?


----------



## VladDracul

One other question I'm not clear on. Did she delete all the calls prior to 6/29 or just the ones between her and the doc?


----------



## TX-SC

Things seem out of whack here. I'm seeing more red flags with your latest post. You need to talk to the wife of the OM and start having her monitor the situation too.


----------



## LucasJackson

BetrayedDad said:


> Well.... At least, I'm starting to understand why your trying to work it out with your serial cheating wife now.


I don't consider it serial cheating. It was one period of cheating with multiple people. To me a serial cheater would be someone who gets caught, repents, gets a second chance, then cheats again. My wife didn't do that. She had stopped on her own before I found out and even when I told her we're done, go ahead and date, screw whoever you want, I don't care, she still didn't cheat. I believe everyone deserves a second chance, but not a third. I wouldn't give anyone a 3rd chance at anything.


----------



## badmemory

MWP said:


> We only literally had 5 minutes to talk because she had to get to work. We are going to have a more detailed discussion...soon.


Okay MWP,

IMHO there's no reason to delay putting your foot down now, about the after hours communication. Approach her calmly and confidently. You're not acting like some macho control freak. It's a common since expectation in a marriage.

And if it were me, even if you don't find any more evidence; I wouldn't give that guy any extra opportunities to hang around your wife through these social get together's. End them. Awkward? That's how you want him to feel.


----------



## BetrayedDad

LucasJackson said:


> I don't consider it serial cheating. It was one period of cheating with multiple people.


That's some strong rationalization hamster you got going on. Powerful stuff...



LucasJackson said:


> I believe everyone deserves a second chance, but not a third. I wouldn't give anyone a 3rd chance at anything.


Maybe I'm wrong but I'd bet my mortgage payment that PAs aren't a deal breaker for you. I think you clearly came from an environment where you were conditioned to believe cheating is a way of life. 

When 90% of the guys around you are doing it, especially men you trusted with your LIFE and had such a close bond to, it's very hard to come home and condemn your wife for the same immoral actions.

You don't seem like a bad guy to me. I hope you will consider some individual counseling at least to help you find your moral compass again.


----------



## MWP

VladDracul said:


> One other question I'm not clear on. Did she delete all the calls prior to 6/29 or just the ones between her and the doc?


Just his... :surprise:


----------



## BetrayedDad

MWP said:


> Just his... :surprise:


The plot thickens......


----------



## tech-novelist

MWP said:


> Just his... :surprise:


I'm afraid that you are in deep trouble.

I give it 99% probability of an EA and 95%+ of its having gone physical.

Sorry you are here.


----------



## TDSC60

MattMatt said:


> @ MWP maybe significant, maybe not.
> 
> My anti-virus programme keeps humbugging me to delete message which it can do for me. I ignore it, some people might not ignore the mechanical promptings.


Yeah. But he says that only messages between her and the Doc are deleted. Those to and from others during the same time period are still there. That indicates that there was something there that she wanted to hide from him.


----------



## Hicks

You wife is putting too much time attention, and emotional energy where it doesn't belong. You yourself see this. You don't have to wait to prove she's cheating. Putting her time and energy outside the marriage is the first step out of it. It leads to all sorts of bad outcomes. This is a fact and the exact degree does not have to be pinpointed. You lose when your discussions are about defining this. Your discussions should be very different..


----------



## wilson

Sometimes you can retrieve the deleted messages from the backup. Look around to see if there's a way to retrieve them from the backup based on your phone type.


----------



## Thor

MWP said:


> Just his... :surprise:


See if you can pull off an older backup of her phone. If she uses Time Machine or another backup program on her computer there may well be older backups from her phone archived.

I have not done this myself so I can't offer step by step instructions. Basically, though, you go into time machine and sift back through older backups. The program identifies whenever any file changes (or a new file shows up) and makes a backup of it. But it doesn't erase older versions of that file until and unless the backup hard drive fills up and it needs more space. Then only the oldest backups get deleted.

So, find the name of the file which contains her phone backup, then look for older copies of it on her computer backups.

My wife did an emergency middle of the night purge of emails when I inadvertently alerted her to our phones storing deleted files in another folder. That was a very bad day for me, as I lost any chance of ever finding out some things. And the fact she deleted them the way she did in the middle of the night means there was something there she didn't want me to see.

There is only one reason she deleted those messages, which was to keep you from seeing the content. There is no doubt she has crossed lines and she knows it. She has been beyond Just Friends with him for at least several months.


----------



## 2asdf2

They don't need texts.

They see each other at the healthcare facility where there are plenty of phones.

And plenty of cubbyholes to spend quality time together.


OP is in a tough spot. Investigating is not going to be easy.

Time to share with OM's wife that he is concerned but in an guileful way.


----------



## VladDracul

MWP said:


> Just his... :surprise:


Ok Dawg, I'm afraid its like my A/C guy said about the air handler on a rental unit, "I'm afraid there's more damage than I originally thought". Ain't but one reason she'd target his messages to erase and that's to cover their butts. Before you do a hell of a lot more talking, you need to review interview techniques in an investigation. Pay close attention to how she may deny something without actually denying her involvement, culpability and attempting leading you into a blind ally. ("he would never be interest in me, we could never do anything like that without the whole staff knowing it, et cetera ")
No need to elaborate on the voice activated recorder, and other surveillance and recovery devices you've been advised of. Perhaps you can restore the deleted text. I'm a tax and law guy and at the bottom of the barrel on phone technology.


----------



## Malaise

Thor said:


> See if you can pull off an older backup of her phone. If she uses Time Machine or another backup program on her computer there may well be older backups from her phone archived.
> 
> I have not done this myself so I can't offer step by step instructions. Basically, though, you go into time machine and sift back through older backups. The program identifies whenever any file changes (or a new file shows up) and makes a backup of it. But it doesn't erase older versions of that file until and unless the backup hard drive fills up and it needs more space. Then only the oldest backups get deleted.
> 
> So, find the name of the file which contains her phone backup, then look for older copies of it on her computer backups.
> 
> My wife did an emergency middle of the night purge of emails when I inadvertently alerted her to our phones storing deleted files in another folder. That was a very bad day for me, as I lost any chance of ever finding out some things. And the fact she deleted them the way she did in the middle of the night means there was something there she didn't want me to see.
> 
> *There is only one reason she deleted those messages, which was to keep you from seeing the content. There is no doubt she has crossed lines and she knows it. She has been beyond Just Friends with him for at least several months*.


Yep.

That it's an EA is beyond question.

With working long hours in a hospital with all of those storage/exam/
supply rooms , plus offices...

Odds of a PA are getting higher OP.


----------



## BetrayedDad

2asdf2 said:


> Time to share with OM's wife that he is concerned but in an guileful way.


I mean if he doesn't care if his wife has been fvcking Dr. Strange then blow it up now but......

If PA is a deal breaker then he needs to find that out FIRST before he blows this up or the truth is going to vanish in the rubble.


----------



## ButtPunch

Get the VAR in place and then contact OM's wife.

Put a pen VAR in her purse.

Blow this sh*t up now. 

Get the deleted texts off the phone. 

No more game playing with her. She's cheating.


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## phillybeffandswiss

STOP TALKING TO YOUR WIFE ABOUT THESE TEXTS.

Sorry, if you are going to snoop, little snide remarks and laid back conversation feel exactly the opposite to the person being checked out. She is going to be chill and actually be on high alert. Yes, it is going to be hard, but no discussions.



> They see each other at the healthcare facility where there are plenty of phones.


100%.

This is what we call "driving it underground." She probably went to work, even if it is innocent, saying "we need to chill outside of work."


----------



## 2asdf2

BetrayedDad said:


> I mean if he doesn't care if his wife has been fvcking Dr. Strange then blow it up now but......
> 
> If PA is a deal breaker then he needs to find that out FIRST before he blows this up or the truth is going to vanish in the rubble.


I agree, except that I don't think he has much of a chance to bust things up through investigation. She is on notice, and cracking the healthcare facility's environment is highly unlikely.

Getting OM's wife to bust it up, that is another thing.

The chances that nothing is going on is about 0 to -1, I am afraid.


----------



## BetrayedDad

2asdf2 said:


> I agree, except that I don't think he has much of a chance to bust things up through investigation. She is on notice, and cracking the healthcare facility's environment is highly unlikely.
> 
> Getting OM's wife to bust it up, that is another thing.
> 
> The chances that nothing is going on is about 0 to -1, I am afraid.


I'm just saying in my experience, cheaters will ONLY confess to what has been discovered and no more. We've seen trickle truth in countless stories.

He must blow it up no matter what I agree but I'd at least like to see him get the truth before she takes it to the grave with her. 

A full unsolicited confession is exceptionally rare and the chances of finding out if she was sleeping with him after the affair is over is next to nil.

That's a line for a lot of people that can not be uncrossed versus an EA, that's clearly already been established here, that some can forgive.


----------



## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> How about you stop trolling my posts on various threads? Please ignore me. That would be great and keep your forgiveness. I don't need it. I don't know when you became so uncivil but I never had a problem with you before.
> 
> 
> 
> And the "I'm bitter and jaded" thing is getting uber cliché. You don't know sh!t about me. I promise you, on the lives of my children, I couldn't be happier. Dumping my ex was the BEST decision I ever made. I can't say marrying her was the worst because of my two kids.
> 
> I simply encourage others to indulge in the happiness I have been given by dumping their remorseless sh!tty spouses. 90% of them are simply NOT worth the trouble. There is PLENTY of joy to be had by getting rid of these toxic people. Codependence is a poison many new betrayed seem to have a real problem breaking. I can certainly relate.
> 
> How about you give your two cents, I'll offer mine and the OPs can decide for themselves? I think that's fair.


So now I'm a troll? 

And you reach this conclusion because I have gently pointed out several times that your one tool response of: "kick all cheaters to the kerb" rhetoric in* all* new threads can be counterproductive and in some instances acts as a derailing device by risking being a threadjack?

In some instances, yes, a cheater *should* be given their marching orders. 

But saying: "Kick them all to the kerb" is as unhelpful as some other single issue agendas we see her at TAM.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

You might try a different tactic. Call one of her coworkers under the guise you want to surprise her with a present and need to have her assistance in sneaking it in to her work area. Tell her you need to meet her without wife knowing. Then when you are with her coworker flat out tell her some one told you she is having an affair and you were told she would have the facts. I can tell you her coworkers know what is going on. Element of surprise


----------



## TRy

BetrayedDad said:


> What if EA's aren't a deal breaker for OP but a PA is? He might never get the truth out of her if he tries shuts it down now without completing the investigation.
> 
> I know it's painful OP but for me personally, not knowing if they had sex and taking her back would be a life sentence of resentment. It's up to you.


 One problem with further investigation is that now that she knows that he has looked in her phone and is concerned, she will take it further underground if she is physically cheating, meaning that it will take a long investigation to catch her cheating, assuming that she slips up and he ever does catch her (which is not a given). Another problem is that if it has not gone physical as of today, this extra time of silent investigation will give it more time and opportunity to go physical. Also, although proof of it going physical is possible, proof of it not going physical is not possible because you cannot prove a negative. Thus even if he takes time to investigate and finds nothing, he will still never really know if it went physical or not. 

Bottom line, worst case situation in waiting to confront is that while it may not be physical now, it could go physical later during the time that he is investigating, with him eventually ending the investigation without finding out that it went physical.


----------



## BetrayedDad

MattMatt said:


> And you reach this conclusion because I have gently pointed out several times that your one tool response of: "kick all cheaters to the kerb" rhetoric in* all* new threads can be counterproductive and in some instances acts as a derailing device by risking being a threadjack?


I have outlined specific instances in other threads where some cheaters ARE worth a second chance. So why don't you stop putting words in my mouth? I've never said ALL cheaters are unredeemable but yes I believe most aren't.

When some dude (who shall remain nameless) posts about a serial cheating wife trolling dating sites for anonymous sex with numerous partners. Yeah.... I'm going to try my damn hardest to talk him out of taking back this lecherous heathen because he deserves better than that. Period.



MattMatt said:


> In some instances, yes, a cheater *should* be given their marching orders.


Yes, we agree. 



MattMatt said:


> But saying: "Kick them all to the kerb" is as unhelpful as some other single issue agendas we see her at TAM.


Look, you are entitled to your opinion. At the same time, I don't appreciate being attacked with snide comments. I will continue to offer the advise I deem appropriate. Your opinion of my comments is unwanted and I'd rather you didn't address me at all if your going to be nasty.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> I can tell you her coworkers know what is going on.


There's a 99.9% chance the office rumor mill is fully aware.


----------



## BetrayedDad

TRy said:


> One problem with further investigation is that now that she knows that he has looked in her phone and is concerned, she will take it further underground if she is physically cheating, meaning that it will take a long investigation to catch her cheating, assuming that she slips up and he ever does catch her (which is not a given).


Yeah, OP fvcked up bad on this. Me and others repeatedly stressed COVERTLY investigate and he got sloppy. Hard to blame him though, no one wants to be Magnum PI. I think he can recover if he plays it cool maybe whine and dinner her a little to relax the situation.



TRy said:


> Bottom line, worst case situation in waiting to confront is that while it may not be physical now, it could go physical later during the time that he is investigating, with him eventually ending the investigation without finding out that it went physical.


It's a calculated risk for certain but the odds of it going physical THE WEEK you decide to investigate, is small. I'm talking a week or so MAX, not months of surveillance. It shouldn't take long, she's flying more red flags than a communist parade.


----------



## Evinrude58

She DELETED texts between her and the doc before 6/29. ONLY texts between her and the doc.
There can be NO DOUBT what this is. And there can be no doubt that she KNOWS what it is between he and her.

OP, you are going at this the wrong way with the talk and telling her you don't like this and that. You CANNOT be a nice guy and play the pick me dance with your wife. You have to be plain and clear about all this. You don't accept bs excuses about why she erased texts ONLY between her and him.

I would do the following: VAR her car and purse as you were directed.
Call the doc's wife and tell her you are finding texts after hours with your wife, and picture exchanges, and deleted texts between your wife and her husband. And tell her that you are concerned and want it to stop, and that you were calling just to let her know that what was going on and in case she was fine with her husband texting your wife after hours about personal stuff, then you didn't need to talk further about it and tell her to have a good day.

After you call his wife, you will bet that VAR will have all kinds of crap on it. 

You've got to drop the hammer down on this. It matters not that it's an affair, physical or emotional. What matters is there is another man on your wife's mind after work, and that she is NOT stopping the relationship with him. You can't nice a person into having YOU on their mind after work again.

Question: has there been ANY change in your sex life or relationship since she got the job with OM?
Has she started shaving down there more often, every day...... dressing nicer than ever? Have you gone through a checklist that you can google anytime about signs of a cheater? What have you checked off?

If you aren't having sex and dates and fun conversation and kissing and touching with your wife, it's likely that someone else is.

If you are good on all these bases, then you need to just nip in the bud this relationship after hours with the doc, and start rekindling some love between you and your wife. THe relationship is obviously inappropriate. No question.
Good luck,


----------



## SunCMars

LucasJackson said:


> I wouldn't give anyone a 3rd chance at anything.


Unless that person were your Child. Blood-Flowers are stronger than Pride-Thorns.

A child gets as many swings [as is needed] to the Daddy Piñata's head!

Just saying!


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## BetrayedDad

Evinrude58 said:


> I would do the following: VAR her car and purse as you were directed.
> 
> Call the doc's wife and tell her you are finding texts after hours with your wife, and picture exchanges, and deleted texts between your wife and her husband. And tell her that you are concerned and want it to stop, and that you were calling just to let her know that what was going on and in case she was fine with her husband texting your wife after hours about personal stuff, then you didn't need to talk further about it and tell her to have a good day.
> 
> After you call his wife, you will bet that VAR will have all kinds of crap on it.


This is a good plan too but if they text or email instead of meet in person then the VARs are useless and the opportunity will be squandered.

Continue to investigate OP. No matter what.


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## SunCMars

spotthedeaddog said:


> I think you mean "overrated" and "overpaid". What's the odds on you using your cellphone more frequently than you use your doctor. Or even your car, and a good mechanic is a big deal (and way under-rated). Cause yeah, doctors _solve_ so many diseases (scientists and engineers are the ones who _cure_ and _prevent_ small pox, choleria, etc ; not those parasites called medical doctors. doctors just get rich of the ones that haven't been solved yet - heck most of the work is done by nurses.


Uh....tell that to the surgeon right before he does open-heart surgery on you or a loved one.

Getting INTO Medical School and getting OUT off Medical School with a Diploma and then going for specialty training takes a total of 12 years or more. 

This program is hard for a reason.


----------



## SunCMars

phillybeffandswiss said:


> STOP TALKING TO YOUR WIFE ABOUT THESE TEXTS.
> 
> Sorry, if you are going to snoop, little snide remarks and laid back conversation feel exactly the opposite to the person being checked out. She is going to be chill and actually be on high alert. Yes, it is going to be hard, but no discussions.
> 
> 100%.
> 
> This is what we call "driving it underground." She probably went to work, even if it is innocent, saying "we need to chill outside of work."


I agree 1000%.

You know it is an EA.

You do not know if it is a PA. Though Ms. Fowl [foul?] cracks like a
pluck.

Run Silent Run Deep, Sherlock at Home. 

Smile, be friendly, be unassuming, sharpen your claws. Go into Deep Snoop Dog mode.....and then morph into the next animal below.

Like a cat.....wait at the rabbit hole....motionless, tail down, blinks not blinking.


----------



## TRy

Evinrude58 said:


> Call the doc's wife and tell her you are finding texts after hours with your wife, and picture exchanges, and deleted texts between your wife and her husband. And tell her that you are concerned and want it to stop, and that you were calling just to let her know that what was going on and in case she was fine with her husband texting your wife after hours about personal stuff, then you didn't need to talk further about it and tell her to have a good day.


 Although I agree with much of what you said in this post, based on what little the OP now knows, he should not call the other man's (OM) wife, as it would endanger the OP's wife's job, and make the OP look foolish to many. Also, in the eyes of the OP's wife, it would take away the OP's high moral ground in this matter. Again, the OP just does not know enough.


----------



## 2asdf2

TRy said:


> Although I agree with much of what you said in this post, based on what little the OP now knows, he should not call the other man's (OM) wife, as it would endanger the OP's wife's job, and make the OP look foolish to many. Also, in the eyes of the OP's wife, it would take away the OP's high moral ground in this matter. Again, the OP just does not know enough.


It does not have to be a full frontal assault.

They know each other socially and there are subtle ways to plant the seed in her mind.


----------



## VladDracul

As much as I do not favor contacting the suspected OP's spouse with only circumstantial evidence, I believe MWP's wife deleting specific messages between her and her BFF warrants such action. Mrs. Doc could be invaluable at getting the cards on the table, discovering any cards held up the sleeve, and ginning down momentum in their "friendship". Since our man MWP is already acquainted with Mrs. Doc, they could play it close to the chest until the evidence points one way or another.


----------



## drifting on

Mwp

Certainly behind the eight ball now, whatever you do has to be done now. I can tell you with certainty that your wife is telling people you are going through her phone. Won't let her have any friends, trying to control everything she does. This is the start of undermining you so you appear crazy to others. Guess what, every betrayed spouse looks crazy because of the actions it takes to stop an affair. 

What are you going to do now? I bet you want to wait until things calm down and you can talk to your wife. WRONG. You act now before they get their ducks in a row. Call OMW now, get her on his case, hopefully she gets on OM and he has to start damage control of his own. Then call the medical administration of the hospital. Tell them the doctors name and report that he is having an inappropriate relationship with a coworker. Now you have his wife AND his employer watching him. Then call your wife. Tell her you are reporting her to the state licensing board. Tell her she is having an affair and the licensing board does not view that favorably. 

Next call the HR department, tell them your wife and this doctor are having an affair. Tell them if they do not reassign one of them you will take it public naming the hospital as an enabler. You will do anything to destroy their public image. This is negative news for the hospital that they do not want. They need no proof to act. Also tell them you will add the hospital and Doctor to the divorce papers. 

This probably sounds crazy, you are most likely thinking I'm crazy, but this is your last chance in my opinion. You have shown her you know, she lied and will now give you nothing to catch. I would also confront the doctor in a public place. Be loud, let others here you, tell him that infidelity will ruin him. Tell him his practice will suffer once people know he is fooling around with others. Tell him you are contacting the state licensing board and reporting him. They have to do an investigation!! 

Stop being nice, your enemies are not nice, being nice will cause you pain. I know, I should have done this but I had far less information then you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TAMAT

MWP,

OM2 and OM3 in my Ws case were doctors, and doctors are good at going undetected as they are careful to select their affair partners from what I have seen. They want a woman who is decent and to a degree even moral and without drama. They aren't so much picking a sex partner as they are a wife. OM2 did say to my W in front of me, "if you were my wife"

One of the things OM2 and OM3 had in common was a habit of being discrete. Doctors are trained to maintain the confidence of their patients, and even in their private lives they often seem to strive to maintain distance with people who are not their peers.

So you might have a really tough time cracking this case as doctors are intelligent, entitled and looking for a silent long term affair, but don't give up or show your hand.

There is a chance your actions spooked the doctor and they took it further underground to protect his reputation.

Tamat


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

I hate to be presumptuous that it is a PA, but my reading of your posts tells me as I posted earlier that you would not be here if you did not suspect something. That is the reason I wound up here seeking input and advice nine months ago. Secondly, I would strongly advise you to read up on the 180. If I were in your shoes I would start it immediately. You can't nice her back and boy howdy is she blameshifting on you big time. You need to go "nuclear" if you wish to save your marriage. Zero tolerance for these shenanigans. She is playing you Marine. Do not allow this sir.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

drifting on said:


> Mwp
> 
> Certainly behind the eight ball now, whatever you do has to be done now. I can tell you with certainty that your wife is telling people you are going through her phone. Won't let her have any friends, trying to control everything she does. This is the start of undermining you so you appear crazy to others. Guess what, every betrayed spouse looks crazy because of the actions it takes to stop an affair.
> 
> What are you going to do now? I bet you want to wait until things calm down and you can talk to your wife. WRONG. You act now before they get their ducks in a row. Call OMW now, get her on his case, hopefully she gets on OM and he has to start damage control of his own. Then call the medical administration of the hospital. Tell them the doctors name and report that he is having an inappropriate relationship with a coworker. Now you have his wife AND his employer watching him. Then call your wife. Tell her you are reporting her to the state licensing board. Tell her she is having an affair and the licensing board does not view that favorably.
> 
> Next call the HR department, tell them your wife and this doctor are having an affair. Tell them if they do not reassign one of them you will take it public naming the hospital as an enabler. You will do anything to destroy their public image. This is negative news for the hospital that they do not want. They need no proof to act. Also tell them you will add the hospital and Doctor to the divorce papers.
> 
> This probably sounds crazy, you are most likely thinking I'm crazy, but this is your last chance in my opinion. You have shown her you know, she lied and will now give you nothing to catch. I would also confront the doctor in a public place. Be loud, let others here you, tell him that infidelity will ruin him. Tell him his practice will suffer once people know he is fooling around with others. Tell him you are contacting the state licensing board and reporting him. They have to do an investigation!!
> 
> Stop being nice, your enemies are not nice, being nice will cause you pain. I know, I should have done this but I had far less information then you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You could be my twin brother from another mother. At this point this is what I would do. This is the nuclear option. QFT.


----------



## VladDracul

Another good reason to get Mrs Doc to start working the other end toward the middle TAMAT. He may be a little in over his head to try this alone. The more culpable they are, the more they'll be double teaming him. The cats already out of the bag that he suspects something and forewarned is forearmed.


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## PhillyGuy13

I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV. But it just sounds like total horse sh!t that the reasons the texts were deleted were because they contained patient information. Heck do docs and nurses even know the patients' names? No it's "2B" or "301" or whatever the bed number is. And why text when there are phones everywhere? Indeed I'm sure the hospital has strict confidentiality laws - don't text patient Information. 

Long winded- it's an outright lie. I still think you're catching this early but June 29 was almost two months ago. Give it 1-2 weeks of heavy monitoring. KEEP QUIET AND COVER YOUR TRACKS. Her guard is now up. You won't find anything ok that phone that you didn't already download. She won't use that phone anymore. 

I'd consider a PI if you can afford it. Have them followed for lunch. The bind you are in is she may sit tight for now since the heat is on. That's why you need to drop it. Almost brush it off "you know I feel silly about it now babe, work has been stressing me out" then DROP IT.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

If you want to take a gamble MWP. Get home before she comes home from work and have suitcases in you living room or den.she will wonder what is going on when she sees the "display". If she asks you what they are for tell her you know and you are not going to divulge your sources and you will be moving out unless she tells you the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Desperate times call for extreme tactics. You are at war Marine! Prepare for battle.


----------



## drifting on

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> If you want to take a gamble MWP. Get home before she comes home from work and have suitcases in you living room or den.she will wonder what is going on when she sees the "display". If she asks you what they are for tell her you know and you are not going to divulge your sources and you will be moving out unless she tells you the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Desperate times call for extreme tactics. You are at war Marine! Prepare for battle.





Hello my twin brother!! I thought of that driving home from dinner!! I was going to post this but you beat me to it.

OP, maybe one suitcase filled with her clothes and one with yours. This way when she only tells you a little you pick up your suitcase and leave. Before you leave, tell her there is much more to this that she isn't saying. They always hold back information, you have to drag them across a state before you get about 75% of what happened. Also know that kissing means sex. If every betrayed spouse received a dollar for that line we could all retire. Whatever you decide Mwp, you need to get cold and calculating. You aren't dealing with your wife now, you are dealing with a soldier of war, your wife left the minute the affair started. That's why she won't share her texts, deletes them, tells you he would never do that as he loves his wife too much. And the perfect retort to that comment is this, I'm not worried about OM cheating, I'm worried about you cheating. 

Sharpen your senses, learn your enemy, find his weakness (wife), then expose that weakness and hit hard. Continue to hit hard until he is crushed. He has two weaknesses you can hit right now, the hospital itself and the licensing board, his reputation is everything, crush it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

OP, 

Sorry for the thread jack here, @ lonelyhusband, thank you for your service. Semper Fi!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## italianjob

LucasJackson said:


> I don't consider it serial cheating. It was one period of cheating with multiple people. To me a serial cheater would be someone who gets caught, repents, gets a second chance, then cheats again.


Huh??? Really? So let's see...

- Subject 1 cheats on his/her spouse with 100 members of the opposite sex in a couple of years before getting caught and being given a second chance.
- Subject 2 cheats on his/her spouse on a ONS, gets a second chance and doesn't cheat for a long time, then 20 years later he/she cheats again on another ONS.
- Subject 3 cheats on his/her spouse, gets divorced, marries again, cheats on the new spouse, gets divorced, marries again, cheats again and so on for as much as you like it.

By your definition Subject 1 is NOT a serial cheater because he/she ****ed a plethora of people BEFORE being given a second chance; Subject 2 is a serial cheater because he/she cheats again after being given a second chance; Subject 3 is NOT a serial cheater, because his/her spouses always decided for divorce, never giving a second chance.

Well your definition is VERY LACKING to be generous, IMO, you should stop making up excuses for your wife...


----------



## MWP

UPDATE 2

Hello all. We had another short discussion about it yesterday. It was short because we weren't alone much yesterday with high school football games, etc. Our conversation even got cut short, so there's more talking to do.

One of the important items of discussion that came up was that she asked me what I want her to do...what I'm asking for. I told her NO MORE texts after working hours, simple as that. No going to lunch alone, because a man and woman who are otherwise attached should not be alone together.

To the poster who mentioned that they don't use patient names but room numbers, you're right. I've noticed that after reading what I've found.

After reviewing the texts, they do appear platonic (at least on her end). There are a few times where he asks if she wants to go to lunch, but she says "I'm good" or "I brought something". It does appear a group gets together to order lunch, and someone goes to get it. Of course, these are the cleaned up version of the texts.

So I was able to find the deleted texts through this software I have. It's sort of messy because the time stamps are weird, so it's difficult to tell exactly when they were sent. The concerning items I found was from him where he said he misses her at work, which I find highly inappropriate. There were also quite a few work related texts.

Still, I don't get why she deleted those texts. Her original story about patient names and saving space on her phone is BS. She had GIGS of free space. But, I'm not finding much in the deleted texts unless they were already overwritten.

On the upside, she said she loves me and does not want to do anything that hurts me or makes me feel bad. She also said that she doesn't want things to be awkward when we're in social settings with him and his wife. I told her that I enjoy hanging out with them as a couple, but the non-work texts need to stop. I said that if he's bored or whatever, he needs to text his wife. 

I basically put a curfew on text messages with him...nothing after 8 PM. Anything later than that is simply inappropriate.

Again, we didn't get to talk it all the way out. I do have a counseling appointment, and I'm thinking of asking her to come with me so we can put it to rest. Between this texting thing and the romance novels, we need a little extra help. When we do have time for date nights, we avoid talking about anything negative. This avoidance always comes back to bite us when we seem to re-hash thing, when they weren't really addressed in the first place.

I will still keep my feelers on, just to be sure. 

I do want to nip this in the bud as soon as possible. I'd rather be working on improving things rather than writhing in uncertainty. I also realize I need to express my affection more with gestures, notes, gifts, etc. It's so easy to lose track of these things after being married for several years as regular life becomes mundane. 

I want to see what our counselor says, but this is what I think. My take is that it's an EA that she's unaware of and is not involved with sexual attraction (whatever that fancy word you guys used earlier!). I do not think it has gone into a PA. Rather, it appears to be the beginning of an EA that could have gotten further if I did not intervene. I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt for now, unless something else comes up.


----------



## Malaise

Deleting those texts were BS, you know that. Did you tell her that?

How strongly did you speak to her? I don't mean yelling but I hope you impressed on her how seriously you take this.

What will you do if she breaks curfew? Or deletes a text from/to him?

Do have access to her phone?


----------



## VladDracul

MW, sounds like you made good moves to me. The joint counseling is probably not a bad idea since you'll both be hearing it from an independent third party.
My only other advice is once you two settle this matter, refrain of speaking of it again unless something clearly shows things are ginning back up. A wound that a person won't let heal is not pretty to look at.


----------



## ButtPunch

I would still inform the Dr.'s wife. 

Let her know how much he misses your wife.

Totally inappropriate.


----------



## mcquestion

Yes, I think you probably prevented a bad situation. Sounds like Dr. Happypants has a method he was working out on your wife.

I had a similar situation with my wife. Fortunately, her ‘just a friend’ coworker left her company a while ago. I’ve never found any evidence of really improper behavior, but he’s a smooth operator that likes to tell her how much he misses her, pings her every few months, etc. I went into full investigation mode, and never really found a smoking gun. I did find out my wife is a huge liar…to everyone. Mainly to get out of trouble or save someone’s feelings, but still. Sounds like your wife might be in that camp.

Don’t be a chump. I’d let the dust settle (they are on full alert now), and spot monitor her via a VAR in the car. That, at least, would catch any secret lunches or any secret calls (burner phone?). If she’s got a ‘group dinner tonight’, maybe make a surprise visit to see if the ‘group’ is just those two…get to know some of her coworkers.

Make your presence known to Dr. Mcsniffingaround….don’t be a jerk, but make sure he knows you are around and your radar is up. 

good luck


----------



## drifting on

Mwp

You may or may not know my story, my wife had a workplace affair for six months, I too was nice. I thought just like you did, your wife is saying what mine did, but that doesn't mean your wife will have an affair that is physical. The problem I see is that your wife is having an EA, you need to understand it doesn't matter if she knows or not. She text on more then you, would be livid if the roles reversed, deletes texts, because she knows some comments WERE inappropriate. Do you still think she doesn't know it's an affair? Deleting is protecting. 

While we're talking of protecting, she protected him with, he's like a brother, he loves his wife too much, who loves their wife too much but misses YOURS??? Then she says she doesn't want things awkward in a social setting, you say you like them socially too, he is your enemy, invading like a wolf to get into the hen house. Your wife is also the enemy as she is protecting and welcoming the advances of OM. You need to crush OM, you need to tell his wife, and what would your wife say to telling the good doctors wife? SHE WOULD BE PISSED IF YOU TOLD HER!! Why do you think that would be. 

Your wife says she doesn't want to hurt you, she asked what you want from her. Your reply is no contact, no contact at work or after work unless you are present. She will balk at this, and you need to hammer her with because she wants the affair to continue. Being nice is not the way to go Mwp, being nice will have you coping with a wife who has sex with others. 

I think it's physical, I think it's a deep EA, and your wife wants this to continue. She is getting those feelings of a new love, new relationship, and she has you to fall back on if the affair goes sour. In her mind she gets to have it all. She likes those feelings, she won't give them up easily, and this is what you need to know most, the OM likes it too. They will both protect this until it blows up in their face, and even then you have no guarantee it ends. 

My wife's affair produced twins, doesn't mean yours will, but most importantly, it doesn't mean it won't either. Sorry to say this Mwp, but you need to skip a football game, you need to talk about this on date night, and you need to get the truth before you start adding to meeting to her needs. You need to tell her that while this inappropriate relationship goes on you don't work on the marriage. The reason is because your wife accepted a third person to your marriage that you don't approve of. Your wife may need to quit her job if contact at work can't be ceased. Them working together will leave you a mess, I know, my wife worked with her OM after I found out. You will go crazy thinking if they are together, what was said, were they alone. You tell your wife it's too bad she didn't value her marriage higher, she didn't value you higher, and that she made terrible choices that will have her against her own marriage. It's all the fault of your wife, and it's all the responsibility of your wife to put her marriage and you first. That means she says goodbye to job and OM, no contact. The fact you give them time to text is until 8pm is ludicrous, NO CONTACT. Your wife is not a doctor, to contact anytime she is not working is inappropriate. She can't care for a patient while at a football game, a date night with you, or grocery shopping. No contact Mwp, no contact at all. 

As for the lunches, ask your wife why she is dating someone while married. What does her marriage mean to her? Why ask you what you want? Remember she doesn't want to hurt you line? Then why does she? What is OM giving her that she wants? Why go against the very rule she has for you? Ask her why she is having an affair? Why is she protecting it? Why won't she tell OM's wife of all the contact? 

Crush this Mwp, NOW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MyRevelation

MWP,

It doesn't appear you fully appreciate just how serious this is.

At a MINIMUM, you should have said you insist on NO CONTACT, even if that means one of them has to go to another hospital, move shifts, etc., AND you should have put your foot down on "There will be no interaction with them socially" as he is an enemy to your M, and you won't tolerate being in his presence, period.

REMEMBER, you came here because something in your "gut" told you something wasn't right with this situation. Now you've learned more that doesn't add up and you're going soft on your WW. This is "Man UP" time and you're allowing yourself to be manipulated by what you want to hear, but really know deep down isn't the correct or whole story.


----------



## Malaise

MyRevelation said:


> MWP,
> 
> It doesn't appear you fully appreciate just how serious this is.
> 
> At a MINIMUM, you should have said you insist on NO CONTACT, even if that means one of them has to go to another hospital, move shifts, etc., AND you should have put your foot down on "There will be no interaction with them socially" as he is an enemy to your M, and you won't tolerate being in his presence, period.
> 
> REMEMBER, you came here because something in your "gut" told you something wasn't right with this situation. Now you've learned more that doesn't add up and you're going soft on your WW. *This is "Man UP" time and you're allowing yourself to be manipulated by what you want to hear, but really know deep down isn't the correct or whole story*.


QFT


----------



## Malaise

MWP said:


> UPDATE 2
> 
> On the upside, she said she loves me and does not want to do anything that hurts me or makes me feel bad. She also said that she doesn't want things to be awkward when we're in social settings with him and his wife.
> .


She told you what you wanted to hear.

And she doesn't want you to bring it up in front of his wife.

Manipulation


----------



## Thor

Ack! Deep cleansing breath, trying to remain calm.

Ok, MWP, you're not really understanding the big picture here. Your wife has a serious emotional connection to Dr. Foodie. Idk if it is a PA but it would not surprise me. It also would not surprise me if things are only in a "dating" mode with lunches and frequent texts. But even if it is the latter your marriage is in very deep trouble.

The fact she deleted the texts is all you need to know. She was hiding from you these exchanges with another man because she knew it would bother you. While some messages were innocuous and caught up in a mass delete, the one about him missing her is bigger than you seem to realize. He has his hooks into her emotionally. If the circumstances were favorable she would take this relationship to the next level into a love affair and/or PA. 

_She lied to you about why she deleted the texts. She is already lying to your face about what she has done. She lies to you._ Hopefully she does not know you recovered those texts. STFU and don't tell her anything about your concerns or investigations.

You should read the ebook "Women's Infidelity" if you can find it on the internet. The author wants far too much $ to buy direct from her but perhaps you can find it elsewhere, in which case it is worth the read.

You have a number of options here, but I think you have chosen the wrong path, which is the one many of us took and learned the hard way.

First, I think you need to stfu and do some investigation. Put that VAR in her car and another where she would make phone calls when you're not home. Keylog the computer if she has one. *I do offer this caveat since she is in health care, as is my wife. Patient confidentiality is a big f'n deal. Anything you collect via keylogger never ever EVER gets revealed to anyone. Not for any reason. You are doing this surveillance to find out the truth about your marriage. If you accidentally gather any patient information you must destroy it immediately. Don't ever tell anyone about your surveillance. If things get ugly for some reason, don't open yourself up to legal drama.

Second, stfu some more.

Third, yes you can get confirmation of NO PA. You may catch her on the VAR talking to him saying she is upset that you think she may have had a PA, but they didn't. She may text or talk to a friend, though that denial would be less sure than a denial while talking to the doc.

Fourth, their behavior is simply not acceptable for two married people. I would insist on No Contact except for specifically work necessary items.

Fifth, no more socializing with them as a couple. A good friend of mine's wife was banging the neighbor. The couples were friends, but neither he nor the OM's wife knew of the affair. The families would get together for dinners, and they would socialize at parties together, all the while posom and his wife were banging at every chance they could find. When my friend found out about the affair it really hit him hard at the extra betrayal of the man eating at his table and socializing with him watching ball games. This socializing was an extra thrill for the cheaters, too, in front of their unsuspecting spouses.

Sixth, I think your wife needs to change jobs to where she won't have contact with him. If she fights you on this it shows she prioritizes doc over you and the marriage.

Unfortunately she is giving you all the classic lines and you are responding in the classic Nice Guy way.


----------



## Thor

Oh yeah, you need to go full 007 in your investigation. Since she works long shifts while you are home, you have plenty of time to really search. Be sure to put everything back exactly as you found it so that she isn't alerted.

Go through all of her drawers carefully. Go through everything in the closet, including the pockets of clothes and inside of all her footwear. Go through her night stand. Look through any books etc. You're looking for a burner phone, love letters, receipts from restaurants, hotels, or gifts. You're looking for sexy clothing, sex toys, condoms, or anything else related to sexual activity which is either hidden or you've never gotten the benefit of. You're looking for souvenirs from trysts or dates (hotel key card, wine bottle cork, etc).

See if you can download or access from her backups any pictures from her phone.

Log onto her email if you can, ditto her Facebook or other social media. Be sure not to try too many times and get her locked out, as she'll know you were snooping. No more than 2 failed attempts and then give up for a day until you're sure she's logged on herself. When you get in, look at all the messages in all the folders especially the trash folders which people forget about. Look at all the pictures on her social media. Look at who her friends are at work and then look at their facebooks. You're looking for overt stuff like messages professing love or discussing sex. You're also looking at friends' pages for pictures from social events where she may be with the doc.

Search anywhere she might hide a burner phone.

Scour her car. Look in every nook and cranny including spare tire well, seat pockets, under the seats, etc. You're looking for condom wrappers, receipts, underwear (I know people who've found underwear in the spouse's car!), burner phone, hotel key cards, etc.

Next, check your car. My wife apparently went on a date in my car when I was out of town. If there is any possibility of her using your car, search it well.

Consider hiring a PI or having someone you trust watch to see who she goes out to lunch with. The GPS in her car is a good tool but chances are she rides with doc in his car if they go out alone.

Do a full internet search on the doc. Check state licensure records for ethics complaints. Maybe he has a history of infidelity or related complaints. Sites like psychodating and others may have his name posted as a cheater or home wrecker.

We have had a case or two here where the husband finds out there really was no affair, or at least no PA or deep EA. The only way to find out is to do your due diligence investigation. 

You are in a no-win situation. You can't have your old marriage back. With luck she is in a minor EA and will respond constructively where you two can build a new marriage. She needs to learn that what she has done is just not acceptable in your marriage and she has to figure out why she let herself do this. The only way to get there is for you not to be Mr. Nice Guy about what has gone on. And, yes, there is the risk that by you being tough that she will run away from the marriage rather than face what she needs to. She has to know that you want to be married to her but you have clear boundaries and will enforce them up to and including leaving the marriage.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

My good man, get real. As other poster said she is telling you what you want to hear. Classic cheater speak. I am in agreement that you do not appear to grasp the gravity of your situation. The cat is out of the bag so maybe the text you deemed inappropriate you should give to his wife. Your are in a battle Marine! Gather you intel and get a battle plan in place.


----------



## 2asdf2

The fact that these conversations you are having are short, troubles me. I bet you are the one that started your short conversations. She does not want to have them. What more important things do you both have to do than save your marriage? 

She is keeping you at arms length, and you are stewing in your own steam.

Stay up all night if you have to, or call in to work. Just make time to talk.

I know you still think your wife is your friend and wants to help you resolve things, but that is not the case when she is defending her fidelity.

Many of us have been where you are, and we wish we had not followed the conservative, peace-keeping path you are pursuing.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Amen sir


----------



## drifting on

Thor said:


> Ack! Deep cleansing breath, trying to remain calm.
> 
> Ok, MWP, you're not really understanding the big picture here. Your wife has a serious emotional connection to Dr. Foodie. Idk if it is a PA but it would not surprise me. It also would not surprise me if things are only in a "dating" mode with lunches and frequent texts. But even if it is the latter your marriage is in very deep trouble.
> 
> The fact she deleted the texts is all you need to know. She was hiding from you these exchanges with another man because she knew it would bother you. While some messages were innocuous and caught up in a mass delete, the one about him missing her is bigger than you seem to realize. He has his hooks into her emotionally. If the circumstances were favorable she would take this relationship to the next level into a love affair and/or PA.
> 
> _She lied to you about why she deleted the texts. She is already lying to your face about what she has done. She lies to you._ Hopefully she does not know you recovered those texts. STFU and don't tell her anything about your concerns or investigations.
> 
> You should read the ebook "Women's Infidelity" if you can find it on the internet. The author wants far too much $ to buy direct from her but perhaps you can find it elsewhere, in which case it is worth the read.
> 
> You have a number of options here, but I think you have chosen the wrong path, which is the one many of us took and learned the hard way.
> 
> First, I think you need to stfu and do some investigation. Put that VAR in her car and another where she would make phone calls when you're not home. Keylog the computer if she has one. *I do offer this caveat since she is in health care, as is my wife. Patient confidentiality is a big f'n deal. Anything you collect via keylogger never ever EVER gets revealed to anyone. Not for any reason. You are doing this surveillance to find out the truth about your marriage. If you accidentally gather any patient information you must destroy it immediately. Don't ever tell anyone about your surveillance. If things get ugly for some reason, don't open yourself up to legal drama.
> 
> Second, stfu some more.
> 
> Third, yes you can get confirmation of NO PA. You may catch her on the VAR talking to him saying she is upset that you think she may have had a PA, but they didn't. She may text or talk to a friend, though that denial would be less sure than a denial while talking to the doc.
> 
> Fourth, their behavior is simply not acceptable for two married people. I would insist on No Contact except for specifically work necessary items.
> 
> Fifth, no more socializing with them as a couple. A good friend of mine's wife was banging the neighbor. The couples were friends, but neither he nor the OM's wife knew of the affair. The families would get together for dinners, and they would socialize at parties together, all the while posom and his wife were banging at every chance they could find. When my friend found out about the affair it really hit him hard at the extra betrayal of the man eating at his table and socializing with him watching ball games. This socializing was an extra thrill for the cheaters, too, in front of their unsuspecting spouses.
> 
> Sixth, I think your wife needs to change jobs to where she won't have contact with him. If she fights you on this it shows she prioritizes doc over you and the marriage.
> 
> Unfortunately she is giving you all the classic lines and you are responding in the classic Nice Guy way.





QFT

Read this until you have it memorized, when your wife opens her mouth it's to lie some more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

Thor said:


> Oh yeah, you need to go full 007 in your investigation. Since she works long shifts while you are home, you have plenty of time to really search. Be sure to put everything back exactly as you found it so that she isn't alerted.
> 
> Go through all of her drawers carefully. Go through everything in the closet, including the pockets of clothes and inside of all her footwear. Go through her night stand. Look through any books etc. You're looking for a burner phone, love letters, receipts from restaurants, hotels, or gifts. You're looking for sexy clothing, sex toys, condoms, or anything else related to sexual activity which is either hidden or you've never gotten the benefit of. You're looking for souvenirs from trysts or dates (hotel key card, wine bottle cork, etc).
> 
> See if you can download or access from her backups any pictures from her phone.
> 
> Log onto her email if you can, ditto her Facebook or other social media. Be sure not to try too many times and get her locked out, as she'll know you were snooping. No more than 2 failed attempts and then give up for a day until you're sure she's logged on herself. When you get in, look at all the messages in all the folders especially the trash folders which people forget about. Look at all the pictures on her social media. Look at who her friends are at work and then look at their facebooks. You're looking for overt stuff like messages professing love or discussing sex. You're also looking at friends' pages for pictures from social events where she may be with the doc.
> 
> Search anywhere she might hide a burner phone.
> 
> Scour her car. Look in every nook and cranny including spare tire well, seat pockets, under the seats, etc. You're looking for condom wrappers, receipts, underwear (I know people who've found underwear in the spouse's car!), burner phone, hotel key cards, etc.
> 
> Next, check your car. My wife apparently went on a date in my car when I was out of town. If there is any possibility of her using your car, search it well.
> 
> Consider hiring a PI or having someone you trust watch to see who she goes out to lunch with. The GPS in her car is a good tool but chances are she rides with doc in his car if they go out alone.
> 
> Do a full internet search on the doc. Check state licensure records for ethics complaints. Maybe he has a history of infidelity or related complaints. Sites like psychodating and others may have his name posted as a cheater or home wrecker.
> 
> We have had a case or two here where the husband finds out there really was no affair, or at least no PA or deep EA. The only way to find out is to do your due diligence investigation.
> 
> You are in a no-win situation. You can't have your old marriage back. With luck she is in a minor EA and will respond constructively where you two can build a new marriage. She needs to learn that what she has done is just not acceptable in your marriage and she has to figure out why she let herself do this. The only way to get there is for you not to be Mr. Nice Guy about what has gone on. And, yes, there is the risk that by you being tough that she will run away from the marriage rather than face what she needs to. She has to know that you want to be married to her but you have clear boundaries and will enforce them up to and including leaving the marriage.





QFT

Read this also until memorized. We've all been in your shoes, I hope you listen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> My good man, get real. As other poster said she is telling you what you want to hear. Classic cheater speak. I am in agreement that you do not appear to grasp the gravity of your situation. The cat is out of the bag so maybe the text you deemed inappropriate you should give to his wife. Your are in a battle Marine! Gather you intel and get a battle plan in place.




After you have read @Thor's posts, get this plan in place. You don't have much time. Contact OM's wife TODAY!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TX-SC

Okay, you know your wife way better than any of us do. You are posting in an infidelity forum and most here are biased that anything even remotely suspicious must be cheating. Unless you suspect otherwise, I think you should trust your wife to make better decisions. She may eventually cheat, but then she also may not. An emotional affair can sneak up on people and she may not yet see this as anything WRONG per se. Your difficult job is to make her see where this could lead without sounding like a jealous a-hole. 

Continue to monitor the situation. I still think you should tell his wife that you have concerns. That would do more to stop this than anything else. If the good doctor is trying to poach your wife, letting his wife know will show him that you are on to his game and he'll move on to some other woman to set up.


----------



## Evinrude58

I've reread OP's original post and most of the other stuff. I think there's information that is missing.

His wife has admitted to deleting texts from the Doc, but not really confessed to ANYTHING inappropriate. All OP has is a gut feeling, and that she has deleted texts, and one text from Doc saying he misses her (that's bad--shouldn't happen, totally inappropriate). 

However, he doesn't have the smoking gun yet, in my opinion. Nothing that the Doc can't explain away to his wife, especially if she is not a strong woman and depends on his income.....

I'm thinking he does need to really dig some more. But I don't think he'll find anything, because I don't think it's gotten bad yet because she's not on the phone constantly and she's not acting distant or stopping sex, or whatever. If she had it bad for the doc, she would be distant.

I am thinking he needs to find more damning information. With deleted texts, I think there is for sure an emotional affair at the least. 
I agree he should demand no contact, and nothing after 8pm is just as crazy as was pointed out. NO contact, NO social visits, and if she balked in the least-- inform the Doc's wife of the number of after work texts, the fact that their texts require deleting, and screen shots of the "I miss you" comments.

He shouldn't have to give a damn about the "awkwardness" of it all. He shouldn't have to be refereeing her texting with another man after hours, and she shouldn't be building "friendships" that require deleting text messages.

This is definitely a dodged bullet IF and only IF she goes no contact with this guy with no big fuss. If there's a fuss, he may as well kiss her goodbye mentally, and start trying to detach. Because emotionally she is gone.


----------



## straightshooter

It's called paralysis caused by denial.

This will not end well.

Just my opinion


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

straightshooter said:


> It's called paralysis caused by denial.
> 
> This will not end well.
> 
> Just my opinion


Sadly I, too, feel you are right on the mark sir.


----------



## Evinrude58

It may not end well. There may be a full blown physical affair being undertaken by a doctor that's a skilled cheater. 
OP will do well to start working on building a strong marriage. He should see how she reacts to his affection. If she becomes more distant, he's sunk. If she instigates more sex, more touching, wanting more time with him---- he's golden.

Regardless, he should INSIST on no contact. This Dr. guy shouldn't be more important than OP's feelings. 
And he shouldn't be worried about appearing "controlling" if he makes himself clear about what he knows has gone on, without revealing his sources. She has been involved in infidelity, no doubt. Even if it's just hiding something from her husband and giving her romantic thoughts/emotions to another man. I highly suspect more, but if there is, he's got a very cool customer on his hands in his wife and her OM. Experienced, I'd say.


----------



## stillthinking

Very simple calculus here.

1. Deleted texts from the doctor. When you mentioned it she fell back on the HIPPA excuse, but you know that is crap. 

2. Deleted texts from the doctor during a specific time frame.

3. Did not delete other texts from other poeple during this same time frame. Just his.

4. Had no answer for this when you mentioned it....I believe you said she had this look on her face.....:surprise:

5. Her phone has plenty of space. No need to delete texts.

Listen closely. If you were reading the above list about someone elses spouse, what would you think? If a husband you know was doing this same thing with texts from a female coworker, you would bet something was going on right? 

I know the desire to rugsweep this quickly with a little conversation at the threapy session is very tempting. I would strongly suggest you resist that desire.

Not saying its a full on PA. We on this board cannot know what she is up to. *But neither do you*. And if you want to save your marriage you better find out. And you will not find out from her telling you. She has lied by omission already.

Listen to Thor and Drifter. If you do what they say. If you stay quiet and use the VAR. If you do some covert intelligence gathering. Then you will know. And if there really is nothing going on then so what, you are out a few bucks and a little time. But if there is something going on, you can take action. You will not be played for a sucker.

That is unless....you are afraid of what you might find. You would not be the first person to take the easy way out and sweep it aside.


----------



## Evinrude58

What has me baffled is that she is obviously pretty good at cheating. She deletes texts at first, but keeps texts from him that are relatively innocuous on her phone for OP to see since then. It's almost like she is really experienced. Or is as of yet not guilty.

Honestly, I think there's a good chance this guy is a pro, has educated OP's wife to be a pro, and they have been slapping nasties for quite a while now. However, he doesn't have anything really bad on her. I agree, no rugsweeping and lots of detective work for the truth. I just wish he could have controlled himself and not let on he was suspicious. Going to be nearly impossible to catch her now. It's likely that all this cheating is somewhat contained at work. Difficult to catch redhanded.

Hopefully OP will do more checking on his download or whatever he did, and find a way to get the goods on her, or clear her of physical wrongdoing and clear her of having a really bad emotional affair. 

My opinion: If he finds the evidence that paints her a guilty adulterer, he sends her packing for good. This kind of sneakiness has taken practice in the past.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

stillthinking said:


> Very simple calculus here.
> 
> 1. Deleted texts from the doctor. When you mentioned it she fell back on the HIPPA excuse, but you know that is crap.
> 
> 2. Deleted texts from the doctor during a specific time frame.
> 
> 3. Did not delete other texts from other poeple during this same time frame. Just his.
> 
> 4. Had no answer for this when you mentioned it....I believe you said she had this look on her face.....:surprise:
> 
> 5. Her phone has plenty of space. No need to delete texts.
> 
> Listen closely. If you were reading the above list about someone elses spouse, what would you think? If a husband you know was doing this same thing with texts from a female coworker, you would bet something was going on right?
> 
> I know the desire to rugsweep this quickly with a little conversation at the threapy session is very tempting. I would strongly suggest you resist that desire.
> 
> Not saying its a full on PA. We on this board cannot know what she is up to. *But neither do you*. And if you want to save your marriage you better find out. And you will not find out from her telling you. She has lied by omission already.
> 
> Listen to Thor and Drifter. If you do what they say. If you stay quiet and use the VAR. If you do some covert intelligence gathering. Then you will know. And if there really is nothing going on then so what, you are out a few bucks and a little time. But if there is something going on, you can take action. You will not be played for a sucker.
> 
> That is unless....you are afraid of what you might find. You would not be the first person to take the easy way out and sweep it aside.


What he said!:surprise:


----------



## MovingFrwrd

Sorry you're here.

Don't make the same mistakes I did, and now that you know the identity of the person, you need to claim your ground.

Step up, tell the doctor his advances will be met with action, and let your wife know that if she doesn't change jobs as soon as humanly possible that there is a very definite end to the marriage coming quite quickly. It's not about career - it's about the trust between two people in a vow of marriage. I recommend getting a bit of background on this doctor - find out who his wife is if you need to contact her. Exposure to well chosen people does indeed help mitigate the possibility of an affair, most especially the other person's spouse.

I understand the feeling of being indecisive, in fact I know it all too well. At this point, you need to let your wife know what the consequences of her actions are - that she must choose her marriage or choose divorcing - and if she chooses your marriage that you both must guard your marriage far closer from this point on. She's most likely going to give you guff about 'her job, her career, you're over-reacting, he's just a friend that I respect etc.' - but make no mistake - this is about your marriage and trust. If she can't grasp that, then you need to be ready with the separation/divorce hammer. The fog is a horrible thing to fight and it sounds as though she's in denial at this point, that she's essentially covering her tracks. Maybe she feels bad about what she's done thus far.

Maybe she's already made her choice - but do you know what it is? Maybe you've made your choice - and do you know what it is? More importantly, can you find your reasons for your choice? Look hard at yourself before you answer that. Recovery from a breach of trust is a hard road, whether it's financial or sexual, and it takes a lot of work from both sides.

Best of luck, and please keep posting. I wish you the best of luck in counseling, and I hope that both of you are able to be truthful and find resolution.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

MF great post. You have extremely keen insight. I could not have said it better myself. Now, somehow I hav to carve you away from the Cavs to a real team. MWP MF and I have been here. Trust your gut. I decided on a whim to search my house and lo and behold in our guest bedroom I found a bustier, and other lingerie I had never seen before. Investigate, investigate, and investigate. As Ronald Reagan said to Gorby " Doveri no proverb.......trust. It verify.


----------



## TRy

MWP said:


> One of the important items of discussion that came up was that she asked me what I want her to do...what I'm asking for. I told her NO MORE texts after working hours, simple as that. No going to lunch alone, because a man and woman who are otherwise attached should not be alone together.


 Did she agree to no texting after work hours? You later say 8:00PM curfew, what if she gets off or work at 5:00PM one day? What about weekends? I think that you should make it simple by saying no non-work related texting and no texting after work period. also, did she agree to no going to lunch alone?




MWP said:


> I also realize I need to express my affection more with gestures, notes, gifts, etc. It's so easy to lose track of these things after being married for several years as regular life becomes mundane. You need to fill the texting void. I now make it a point to text my wife a few times a day every day, even if it is just to say I love you. She started texting a lot now too. We jokingly tell our children that according to the standard definition, we are in an emotional affair.
> 
> 
> 
> MWP said:
> 
> 
> 
> My take is that it's an EA that she's unaware of and is not involved with sexual attraction (whatever that fancy word you guys used earlier!). I do not think it has gone into a PA. Rather, it appears to be the beginning of an EA that could have gotten further if I did not intervene.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that your take is spot on. Good job and good luck.
Click to expand...


----------



## PhillyGuy13

sorry, I think she needs to rip off the bandaid. 

Zero socializing with doctor and/or his wife. Lunch dates need to stop. Something tells me the "group of coworkers" that goes out is usually just him and her. Occasionally a big group, which becomes the exception used to prove the rule. 

Zero texts. Work or otherwise. Need to communicate about a patient? Use a house phone. Or reception. Or intercom. Or raven. No more texts.

I'm not sold on the deleted text recovery programs out there. Some people have success, many others do not. 

Set clear expectations and set boundaries. She's either going to respect you and the marriage more than her friend or she isn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

If what you have deduced is true, you have no choice.You will not find any threads anywhere that EA partners can remain in contact and save their marriages.Its worse in this case because of the hospital setting.The can bang like rabbits and never use their phones, texts or emails. They can carry on for years and you will never prove it.

Youre a Marine and a cop.You would never accept this lying blame****ing crap from a suspect.Use your skills. You've aready proven she will lie to you. Keep digging but stfu for God's sake.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, the reason EVERYONE is telling you the same thing is because of years of experience with cheating and cheating web sites.

If you turn out to be right you have beaten 1 in a 1000 odds.


----------



## straightshooter

OP

As Chaperal has said, when a group of total strangers with no knowledge of each other and different experiences tell you the same basic things, the GROUP is very rarely wrong.

Your wife is most likely already having a PA with this doctor, and you will most likely find that out the hard way. Affairs in the workplace are the hardest to stop and you already know they have plenty of opportunity.

Anyone posting to you HATES to see these words

"I should have listened to you guys"

Unfortunately we see it too often.


----------



## Malaise

straightshooter said:


> OP
> 
> As Chaperal has said, when a group of total strangers with no knowledge of each other and different experiences tell you the same basic things, the GROUP is very rarely wrong.
> 
> Your wife is most likely already having a PA with this doctor, and you will most likely find that out the hard way. Affairs in the workplace are the hardest to stop and you already know they have plenty of opportunity.
> 
> Anyone posting to you HATES to see these words
> 
> "I should have listened to you guys"
> 
> Unfortunately we see it too often.


Yep.

also...the group has seen, collectively, just about every variation on the theme. Not too much surprises the group, we/they have seen it all.

OP take that for what it's worth. Yours is not unique, just a reboot of the same old story. Same plot, different actors.


----------



## tech-novelist

Thor said:


> Oh yeah, you need to go full 007 in your investigation. Since she works long shifts while you are home, you have plenty of time to really search. Be sure to put everything back exactly as you found it so that she isn't alerted.
> 
> Go through all of her drawers carefully. Go through everything in the closet, including the pockets of clothes and inside of all her footwear. Go through her night stand. Look through any books etc. You're looking for a burner phone, love letters, receipts from restaurants, hotels, or gifts. You're looking for sexy clothing, sex toys, condoms, or anything else related to sexual activity which is either hidden or you've never gotten the benefit of. You're looking for souvenirs from trysts or dates (hotel key card, wine bottle cork, etc).
> 
> See if you can download or access from her backups any pictures from her phone.
> 
> Log onto her email if you can, ditto her Facebook or other social media. Be sure not to try too many times and get her locked out, as she'll know you were snooping. No more than 2 failed attempts and then give up for a day until you're sure she's logged on herself. When you get in, look at all the messages in all the folders especially the trash folders which people forget about. Look at all the pictures on her social media. Look at who her friends are at work and then look at their facebooks. You're looking for overt stuff like messages professing love or discussing sex. You're also looking at friends' pages for pictures from social events where she may be with the doc.
> 
> Search anywhere she might hide a burner phone.
> 
> Scour her car. Look in every nook and cranny including spare tire well, seat pockets, under the seats, etc. You're looking for condom wrappers, receipts, underwear (I know people who've found underwear in the spouse's car!), burner phone, hotel key cards, etc.
> 
> Next, check your car. My wife apparently went on a date in my car when I was out of town. If there is any possibility of her using your car, search it well.
> 
> Consider hiring a PI or having someone you trust watch to see who she goes out to lunch with. The GPS in her car is a good tool but chances are she rides with doc in his car if they go out alone.
> 
> Do a full internet search on the doc. Check state licensure records for ethics complaints. Maybe he has a history of infidelity or related complaints. Sites like psychodating and others may have his name posted as a cheater or home wrecker.
> 
> We have had a case or two here where the husband finds out there really was no affair, or at least no PA or deep EA. The only way to find out is to do your due diligence investigation.
> 
> You are in a no-win situation. You can't have your old marriage back. With luck she is in a minor EA and will respond constructively where you two can build a new marriage. She needs to learn that what she has done is just not acceptable in your marriage and she has to figure out why she let herself do this. The only way to get there is for you not to be Mr. Nice Guy about what has gone on. And, yes, there is the risk that by you being tough that she will run away from the marriage rather than face what she needs to. She has to know that you want to be married to her but you have clear boundaries and will enforce them up to and including leaving the marriage.


Very good, except you forgot to tell him to check her panties for foreign semen. There are tests for this, e.g., Semen Analysis - Test Infidelity. Is it worth a couple of hundred $ to be sure? It would be for me if I were in his situation.


----------



## LucasJackson

italianjob said:


> Huh??? Really? So let's see...
> 
> - Subject 1 cheats on his/her spouse with 100 members of the opposite sex in a couple of years before getting caught and being given a second chance.
> - Subject 2 cheats on his/her spouse on a ONS, gets a second chance and doesn't cheat for a long time, then 20 years later he/she cheats again on another ONS.
> - Subject 3 cheats on his/her spouse, gets divorced, marries again, cheats on the new spouse, gets divorced, marries again, cheats again and so on for as much as you like it.
> 
> By your definition Subject 1 is NOT a serial cheater because he/she ****ed a plethora of people BEFORE being given a second chance; Subject 2 is a serial cheater because he/she cheats again after being given a second chance; Subject 3 is NOT a serial cheater, because his/her spouses always decided for divorce, never giving a second chance.
> 
> Well your definition is VERY LACKING to be generous, IMO, you should stop making up excuses for your wife...


I don't think so. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance. If they honor that 2nd chance and fly right then they can redeem themselves. Anyone who dishonors a 2nd chance is probably beyond redemption and not worth the effort.


----------



## drifting on

Mwp

My wife and her on used work electronics. They had sex during work hours. Rarely, and I mean rarely did they communicate during off work hours. My wife would stay in the room I was in while talking to OM. They talked all day about their relationship IN PERSON. Your wife and the good doctor got sloppy and notify each other during off hours. This leads me to believe neither is skilled in affairs. 

Your next conversation with your wife needs to be accusatory. Accept no answer she gives you. Ask her why all the contact is without you around or when you are sleeping. Ask why you can't have an opposite sex friend and she can. Tell her deleting texts shows she is hiding something. Ask her what. Ask her how many dates she's gone on? When she says what dates say lunch. Ask if she would be concerned if you did this. Ask if she would believe the answers she's giving. Fire these questions off only listening to three words of her answer. Rattle her, mention divorce several times, mention disrespect, tell her you are going to talk to the good doctor. Tell her if she communicates with him after you leave you will file for divorce. Walk out the door. 

Two minutes later walk in and tell her she is coming with you. If she won't go you have your answer. If she goes at least you talk to the good doctor WITH HIS WIFE PRESENT about their EA. Leave his house with the understanding of no contact, this us to include work, the doctor can leave any orders he has with the charge nurse of the unit your wife works. If there is contact tell him you will contact the licensing board for him and your wife, you will contact medical administration of the hospital, they handle the ethics for doctors, and then you will contact HR. Next tell him you will expose via social media. Then leave. 

This will make the doctor be in damage control, as well as your wife. When you get home you tell your wife she is to find other employment. There is a nursing shortage and she has thirty days from yesterday. Then pack her suitcase, if she doesn't agree put it by the front door and say good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## See_Listen_Love

MWP said:


> UPDATE 2
> 
> Hello all. We had another short discussion about it yesterday. It was short because we weren't alone much yesterday with high school football games, etc. Our conversation even got cut short, so there's more talking to do.
> 
> One of the important items of discussion that came up was that she asked me what I want her to do...what I'm asking for. I told her NO MORE texts after working hours, simple as that. No going to lunch alone, because a man and woman who are otherwise attached should not be alone together.
> 
> To the poster who mentioned that they don't use patient names but room numbers, you're right. I've noticed that after reading what I've found.
> 
> After reviewing the texts, they do appear platonic (at least on her end). There are a few times where he asks if she wants to go to lunch, but she says "I'm good" or "I brought something". It does appear a group gets together to order lunch, and someone goes to get it. Of course, these are the cleaned up version of the texts.
> 
> So I was able to find the deleted texts through this software I have. It's sort of messy because the time stamps are weird, so it's difficult to tell exactly when they were sent. The concerning items I found was from him where he said he misses her at work, which I find highly inappropriate. There were also quite a few work related texts.
> 
> Still, I don't get why she deleted those texts. Her original story about patient names and saving space on her phone is BS. She had GIGS of free space. But, I'm not finding much in the deleted texts unless they were already overwritten.
> 
> On the upside, she said she loves me and does not want to do anything that hurts me or makes me feel bad. She also said that she doesn't want things to be awkward when we're in social settings with him and his wife. I told her that I enjoy hanging out with them as a couple, but the non-work texts need to stop. I said that if he's bored or whatever, he needs to text his wife.
> 
> I basically put a curfew on text messages with him...nothing after 8 PM. Anything later than that is simply inappropriate.
> 
> Again, we didn't get to talk it all the way out. I do have a counseling appointment, and I'm thinking of asking her to come with me so we can put it to rest. Between this texting thing and the romance novels, we need a little extra help. When we do have time for date nights, we avoid talking about anything negative. This avoidance always comes back to bite us when we seem to re-hash thing, when they weren't really addressed in the first place.
> 
> I will still keep my feelers on, just to be sure.
> 
> I do want to nip this in the bud as soon as possible. I'd rather be working on improving things rather than writhing in uncertainty. I also realize I need to express my affection more with gestures, notes, gifts, etc. It's so easy to lose track of these things after being married for several years as regular life becomes mundane.
> 
> I want to see what our counselor says, but this is what I think. My take is that it's an EA that she's unaware of and is not involved with sexual attraction (whatever that fancy word you guys used earlier!). I do not think it has gone into a PA. Rather, it appears to be the beginning of an EA that could have gotten further if I did not intervene. I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt for now, unless something else comes up.


:surprise:..........................:frown2:.......................................:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


----------



## italianjob

LucasJackson said:


> I don't think so. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance. If they honor that 2nd chance and fly right then they can redeem themselves. Anyone who dishonors a 2nd chance is probably beyond redemption and not worth the effort.


1. My post didn't make any reference to second chances, who are you answering to? My post said your definition of serial cheating doesn't make any sense and it STILL doesn't make any sense...

2. NOBODY *deserves* a second chance. The damaged part can decide to allow it or not.
Some people might be good subjects for a second chance, it might be a good idea to give it to them. Some people are not, some you shouldn't even think about it, it depends on what they did and on the way they did it, and this is true for everything in life, not just cheating...


----------



## MWP

Guys, don't get me wrong...I'm not done investigating! I certainly am not laying over either!

As mentioned before, I don't have much to go on right now. I need more time, and although it will go underground I can still poke around. I want her to think I'm OK with it and see if she uses that rope to hang herself.

Here are my next steps...

I am using a makeshift VAR until I can purchase one. I have an old phone (Android) and I downloaded an app called Smart Voice Recorder. It is essentially a VAR app. I will turn off all sound and network services, put it on the bottom of the seat and see what I get. It has about 30+ hours of recording time.

I will also purchase Wondershare Dr. Fone, which is an iPhone recovery software. Her iPhone backs up to the cloud, and this software will allow me to download backups without the phone in hand. My hope is there are older backups PRIOR to 6/29.

If anyone has any other tech-related tips, please let me know. 

As for deleted texts, I noticed there was one other contact with missing texts prior to 6/29. It was a female doctor. I have been able to retrieve some of the deleted texts, but no smoking gun. I still don't buy the HIPPA and saving space excuse. There is plenty of storage space and there are other conversations with patient information.

Thank you all for continuing to reply. It's good to see other points of view.


----------



## dash74

Burner Phone Alert

Mwp memorize the song 2 phones because it's coming to your marriage, and ask if yourself if you are the plug or the load (the money or the money shot)


----------



## SunCMars

MWP said:


> Guys, don't get me wrong...I'm not done investigating! I certainly am not laying over either!
> 
> As mentioned before, I don't have much to go on right now. I need more time, and although it will go underground I can still poke around. I want her to think I'm OK with it and see if she uses that rope to hang herself.
> 
> Here are my next steps...
> 
> I am using a makeshift VAR until I can purchase one. I have an old phone (Android) and I downloaded an app called Smart Voice Recorder. It is essentially a VAR app. I will turn off all sound and network services, put it on the bottom of the seat and see what I get. It has about 30+ hours of recording time.
> 
> I will also purchase Wondershare Dr. Fone, which is an iPhone recovery software. Her iPhone backs up to the cloud, and this software will allow me to download backups without the phone in hand. My hope is there are older backups PRIOR to 6/29.
> 
> If anyone has any other tech-related tips, please let me know.
> 
> As for deleted texts, I noticed there was one other contact with missing texts prior to 6/29. It was a female doctor. I have been able to retrieve some of the deleted texts, but no smoking gun. I still don't buy the HIPPA and saving space excuse. There is plenty of storage space and there are other conversations with patient information.
> 
> Thank you all for continuing to reply. It's good to see other points of view.


Hang in there. Do what needs to be done. 

Listen to the clamor here. Do not let it drive you away!

Life is a journey and this is a bumpy road you are on.

I know they put heavy-duty shocks in Police Cruisers...for the bumpy roads and for the high speed pursuits. 

This days journey is bumpy, Ja!....high speed, Nyet!


----------



## SunCMars

Best Buy has Sony voice activated recorders [VAR] for $60 dollars, or so. They are on-the-shelf.

They are very small and easily hide-able.


----------



## Mr.StrongMan

....


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Did you mention you were a police officer? Are there any buddies on the force who are PIs on the side, and/or would be willing to tail your wife at times?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

LucasJackson said:


> I don't think so. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance. If they honor that 2nd chance and fly right then they can redeem themselves. Anyone who dishonors a 2nd chance is probably beyond redemption and not worth the effort.


No, everyone DOESN'T deserve a second chance. Sorry, I just completely disagree with this sentiment. People can hurt you bad enough one time and it is perfectly okay to say "NOPE, I'm done."


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MWP said:


> Thank you all for continuing to reply. It's good to see other points of view.


Unless your wife had a flip phone from the early 2000's no, it is BS. Before you question me, I went with my wife when her old flip phone crashed because she deleted nothing. I have never heard of a smart phone crashing because of excessive text data.

There is a bunch of discussion, but there are really good tips in this thread.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html


----------



## VladDracul

One thing I believe hasn't been mentioned. Women will sometimes befriend men for ulterior motives like hanging out to improve their social status, influence, friends in high place, protection and the like. My wife and her sisters told me that during their high school years, at the beginning of forced busing, the girls would buddy up with the biggest, baddest, meanest guys by talking helping with homework, doing their homework, etc., to protect them from harnessing male students bused in.
Men, on the other hand, ubiquitously seem to believe friendship is a road into the girl pants only to find out they are often being used. From my observation, guys can get further by playing hard to get than by entering the friendship zone.


----------



## turnera

Have you even told his wife yet?


----------



## Evinrude58

kindMe77 said:


> Your story sounds like my story. Only you have access to your wife's phone.


No, this guy's wife has nothing in common with yours. His wife loves him, or did at one time, and she actually likes having sex with him. This situation has to do with an affair, yours has to do with your wife telling you flat out she doesn't love you and doesn't want to have sex with you. This guy still has a chance at love. You do too, except you won't take it by leaving.
I urge you to not squander your life with this "wife" of yours, get some help with the victim mindset, and go find a woman that worships you. With all the social media we have today, any reasonably intelligent man could have more action from ladies than he can handle. I know change is hard. It was for me. But it's better than how you're living.
There, I didn't even post on your thread.👍
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

^^^Right. This can still be in the very early stages of the wandering eye and he has a chance. Now, unless you are only telling us bits and pieces, your story isn't even in the same realm. Your wife started doing negative things form the very start of your marriage.


----------



## Archangel2

MWP said:


> Guys, don't get me wrong...I'm not done investigating! I certainly am not laying over either!
> 
> As mentioned before, I don't have much to go on right now. I need more time, and although it will go underground I can still poke around. I want her to think I'm OK with it and see if she uses that rope to hang herself.
> 
> Here are my next steps...
> 
> I am using a makeshift VAR until I can purchase one. I have an old phone (Android) and I downloaded an app called Smart Voice Recorder. It is essentially a VAR app. I will turn off all sound and network services, put it on the bottom of the seat and see what I get. It has about 30+ hours of recording time.
> 
> I will also purchase Wondershare Dr. Fone, which is an iPhone recovery software. Her iPhone backs up to the cloud, and this software will allow me to download backups without the phone in hand. My hope is there are older backups PRIOR to 6/29.
> 
> If anyone has any other tech-related tips, please let me know.
> 
> As for deleted texts, I noticed there was one other contact with missing texts prior to 6/29. It was a female doctor. I have been able to retrieve some of the deleted texts, but no smoking gun. I still don't buy the HIPPA and saving space excuse. There is plenty of storage space and there are other conversations with patient information.
> 
> Thank you all for continuing to reply. It's good to see other points of view.


 @MWP - I think the only silver lining in this cloud is that if you play your cards right, you may regain the strategic advantage in this mess. As long as you can keep your cool and play the clueless husband, she may believe that she has placated you and will sooner or later slip up.

Remember, you have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it.


----------



## TaDor

41362 said:


> She is close to the members on her team. Really close. They save lives together and they watch folks die together...if that doesn't bond you, nothing does. It's a support network, too, because they lose as many as they win.There is a ton of cheating in healthcare because of this bond. That's a fact. If you trust your wife, then trust her. If this relationship is too close, and it is tearing you up, then tell her. If she's a healthcare professional, this is the norm, not an exception.


NO! I do not agree. People in the healthcare field are VERY HIGHLY likely to having an affair. A friend of mine is in that field, more of her co-workers are cheating or having sex with each other than not.


----------



## LucasJackson

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, everyone DOESN'T deserve a second chance. Sorry, I just completely disagree with this sentiment. People can hurt you bad enough one time and it is perfectly okay to say "NOPE, I'm done."


It's all opinion. I think you're right saying this about a mass murderer or Hitler, something like. As for a cheating spouse, in my opinion, that is someone who might deserve a 2nd chance. Especially if they're remorseful. That's a must.


----------



## TDSC60

I was in the hospital a couple of months ago. Every time a nurse came in, they scanned a bar-code on the door. If they gave medication or changed an IV bag - they scanned a bar-code. If they emptied a bed pan or catheter bag- they entered info into a computer. Blood pressure, temperature, pulse - all entered into computer file immediately. Exactly what patient info would they need to text about that is not in the patient's electronic files? Especially after work hours.


----------



## TaDor

VladDracul said:


> The primary danger I see is that women can safely be just friends with a man if the man is of lower status. If the man is of higher status, and meets her other minimum qualifications, there's a fair chance the woman will be attracted to him where she wouldn't be if he were of lower to equal status.


Nope... its a crap-shoot. People affair up or down.

It depends on who they work with and who is willing to give them attention, etc. Many women have gone for uglier and fatter guys, sometimes they have bigger wallets - sometimes, they just have a lot of crack to share.

Now, attracting available women is easier when you have MONEY, Status, looks or all of the above.


----------



## TaDor

MWP said:


> UPDATE
> 
> Hello all. Again, thanks for all of your input. I just hope it's my paranoia getting the best of me, but I'll dig deeper to be sure.
> 
> I got hold of her phone last night and downloaded a backup onto the PC. It save calls, text messages, photos, etc. There was nothing blaring at me, but who's to say she doesn't "clean up".
> 
> I'm still sifting through it, comparing messages to the cell phone bill. There is one thing that surprised me. Messages prior to 6/29 were deleted, so I have nothing on those. There were messages from other people prior to 6/29, so that raised a red flag.
> 
> I did this about 4am and put her phone back in place. Stupid me left her screen on her text conversation with him, so that was the first thing she saw when she woke up!


Yikes! Deleted messages from only one person? good job sticking to your guns on that one.

But yeah, you are NEW to this... and slipped up on your detective work. Hey, we all do. It just shifted how things are going to progresses since she NOW knows you are onto her or "think" there is a problem.

I'm only on page 8 (out of 16) on this thread, by the way.

TIP when going through a suspected cheaters phone: Use your phone to take a picture of the original home screen and/apps task list. IE: on Android, if a messaging APP was 10 apps back, but you put the phone back when its at 2nd position... oops.

"Not Just Friends" is a standard phrase from cheaters. All of us have gone trough this. A friend is ejectable if they are toxic... "not just a friend" and she's willing to destroy her marriage - bad sign.

Watch her TEXT traffic now. Check the phone logs from your cellphone account. IE: Account logs show 80 messages back and forth at OFF WORK time, while you are at work. But on her phone, you only see 8 messages.

WhatsAPP doesn't use text logs, so unless you have access to that app... nothing.

Note WHAT other apps are installed on the phone. Like Vault, WhatsApp and others.

And finally, it DOESN'T matter if its semi-innocent for full blown EA/PA - buy two copies of the book "Not Just Friends". You both need to read it. Don't wait for yourself or her to read it. So if its early enough - she may not realize what she is doing.

Here is the book: https://www.amazon.com/Not-Just-Fri...d=1472363172&sr=8-1&keywords=not+just+friends

(EA start like a frog put into a pot with cold water that is slowly getting to a boil vs. boiling and the frog jumps out)

EAs can turn into PA's quickly if they are close together vs. online EAs in which people live hundreds or thousands of miles apart. All it takes is a real kiss and after that... you get the picture. Sex can be 5 minutes to 5 hours... when you are not around.

... more reading to do on this thread


----------



## MattMatt

Unless they are hiding something other than an affair?

They might be involved in some criminal enterprises together.

Happened at a hospital in the UK there was no affair but there were thefts of medical equipment which were being sold on ebay.

Maybe they are stealing drugs and selling them?

Happened at a local nursing home, they were palming drugs and selling them on rather than giving the medication out.

Think outside the box. 

Secret communication = cheating or something else?

Either way you need to investigate using VAR, keyloggers etc. This is to protect your legal position as much as finding out if she is cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MovingFrwrd

MWP said:


> I am using a makeshift VAR until I can purchase one. I have an old phone (Android) and I downloaded an app called Smart Voice Recorder. It is essentially a VAR app. I will turn off all sound and network services, put it on the bottom of the seat and see what I get. It has about 30+ hours of recording time.
> 
> *Clever! I'm quite curious how well the phone works when used this way. *
> 
> I will also purchase Wondershare Dr. Fone, which is an iPhone recovery software. Her iPhone backs up to the cloud, and this software will allow me to download backups without the phone in hand. My hope is there are older backups PRIOR to 6/29.
> 
> *Dr. Fone works pretty darn well. This is the same program I used to find information. I found it to be a rather quirky recovery system. It appears that if she deleted the entire text thread (as in left swipe on the text conversation in the list and delete) then the backup recovered the time stamps very well, and you could read that portion just like a normal series of texts. When individual texts within the conversation were deleted, then they seemed to be jumbled. The recovered texts had a way of grouping all of those together either at the front of the file or piled up at the end of the file, and there was no real rhyme or reason to it.*
> 
> .


If I can make a recommendation, have a trusted friend or family member read through the recovered texts if you want to work on saving your marriage. Don't read them yourself. The temptation is almost too much to resist to pain shop yourself into horrible dark spaces.

If there is an affair going on, and they are texting quite a bit about it, it's exceptionally damaging to read the little 'miss you's' or 'it was incredibly hot last time' stuff - you'll have a LONG and HARD road getting this out of your head. The pain would probably be similar to seeing a video of the two of them.

I still hope for you sake this hasn't become a full blown EA/PA.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Read the texts. Your mind is playing games anyway and in dark places. Not knowing is MUCH worse, IMO, than reading and having a good idea of where it went and how far.


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## Malaise

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Read the texts. Your mind is playing games anyway and in dark places. Not knowing is MUCH worse, IMO, than reading and having a good idea of where it went and how far.


And you're the one who knows her best. What she says to him may resonate with you more ie: pet phrases, slang, nick names, terms of endearment, etc.


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## straightshooter

You have to make a decision as to whether or not you want to let some friend or other person decide for YOU what their interpretation is of what you uncover if you do not personally listen to the messages or read what she did or said.

One of the first pieces of advice to anyone who does install the spyware or VAR is that you must be willing to accept that you may hear some very hurtful things and that you cannot divulge how you got the information.

You will still be in limbo if you take someone else's word for it not knowing if they are omitting anything because they want to spare you more hurt ot want you to R.

Again, you are on this forum because your gut is churning. And you will not be able to rest peacefully not knowing the truth one way or the other. 

And if you do not believe that she is in already some kind of inappropriate relationship ( we do not know which yet), then none of what anyone has told you has sunk in. But I do think you have made some progress on that front.

The bigger issues is what is your plan going to be when you uncover what most of us are willing to bet some of our 401k's that you will uncover.

Let's look at the options
(1) if this is just an EA, what is your plan to get it ended??? And telling her you do not like it ain't working too well is it
(2) if you uncover sexually inappropriate communications only, what is the plan???
(3) and if you I uncover a full blown PA ( I hope I am totally wrong but I am betting this is what you are going to find), what do you do then.???

Let's make a football analogy here (not sure if you understand football). If you're the coach you try to anticipate everything the opponent can do and PREPARE.

If you do not think the three options I have above, then you are "winging" it, and you will not be thinking straight from the shock.

Some the moral of this story OP is BE PREPARED FOR THE WORST, and hope for the best. That is called protecting yourself


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## MovingFrwrd

Everyone has their reasons for reading or not reading communications. 

Trust me when I say it's a horrible road to try to recover from. Should R be attempted, triggers are much more numerous even in how they addressed their AP. Songs they talked about, places it happened, comments they made to each other, pet names, stupid happy birthday crud, planning dates with each other, talking about having her period so she couldn't do anything 'nutty' etc. Dates that things happened get drilled into your brain. You start pain shopping, matching up dates with important dates in your life (birthdays, holidays, business conventions, anniversaries, celebrations, etc.) and you're triggering on things you never knew you would trigger on.

If you know you're not interested in R, feel free to go hog wild. If you do want to recover the marriage, this is a difficult thing to return from. You can never un-see that information, so proceed with caution.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

My intuition tells me you are being gaslighted. Your situation is much like a iceberg. 10% is above water (what you know) 90% is underwater (what you do not know). The situation you describe reminds me very much of a good friend of mine who had a wife that was a Physician's assistant who worked closely with one of the doctors in the group. He suspected an affair, confronted without much evidence as you have, and initially was gas lighted with explanations your wife is providing you, only to find out several months later the doc accompanied her to an out of town conference when his ex let it slip. My friend got his intel as to what was going on from his wife's co-workers. He Found out his gut was right after all. 

He went to the hospital caught the doctor between floors in a stairwell and proceeds to beat the hell out of doc, and lucky for him the doc did not press charges as he wanted to keep his wife from knowing anything. My friend divorced his wife, doc was later outed to his wife and he wound up divorced and was taken to the cleaners.Karma. 

I am not by any means encouraging violence, I am just using my friends situation as an analogy to the one you face. You have not gotten anywhere near the truth. Your short conversations tell me that it is likely she is avoiding any discussion. You work arrangements with the different schedules is not good. Is there any way your shift commander could schedule you in alignment with the schedule of your wife? This could help you as you would be home with her when otherwise you would be on duty.

I hope we are all wrong about your wife. Good luck Marine in getting to the heart of the matter.


----------



## jsmart

I'm hoping and believe this is not physical but it sounds like his wife feels entitled to have this "friendship" because nothing is going on but it sounds like there conversations have gotten inappropriate at times, hence the deleted text. 

The problem is that these things escalate so quickly. I always read woman's threads on LS where they write, he pursued me so hard. They got addicted to the highs that produced and eventually the feelings follow. Once that happens, they allow themselves to be in situations that they claim it "just happened." 

This inappropriate relationship combined with her reading these erotic romance novels (female porn) tells me she's not satisfied with her husband. What man can compete with these literary fantasy men nor with a high status married man risking everything chasing her married pvssy. 

If you want to salvage this marriage, you need to up your game. I know it sucks to feels that after so many years of being a good husband and father that you must resort to these things but today's woman is bombarded with the message that there is more out there and she's entitled to it. Popular media tell that marriage and kids should take a back seat to whatever she wants this season. Broken family? who cares, I have to be true to myself.


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## Malaise

If you have to 'up your game' to convince your wife to pick you instead of OM, then I don't think there's much to salvage

Just my .02.

YMMV.


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## VladDracul

At this point I think ole MWP need to get his bearings and take a few readings before filing for divorce or him and his wife renewing their vows.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

I concur


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## alte Dame

My .02 is that she is VERY flattered by this man's attentions. 

She is in an EA.

He is grooming her. I don't believe that busy, grown men typically spend their free time texting platonically with female coworkers. He's grooming your W.

You need to inform his BW as of yesterday. Forget the curfew. Your W needs to end the contact now. You need to determine consequences if she won't do it. Stop letting your worries about 'controlling' brake your action. Tell her that you are not comfortable with him as her friend. Period. Punkt. Finito. No more texting. No more lunches. No more anything.


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## TaDor

Hey MWP, listen to the people here. WE have ALL been burnt by cheaters.

Nothing your wife (cheater - male or female) has said, is special. The brain process to CHEAT causes the same reactions in general. There are stages, on both sides on how to handle things or where they are headed. I'm NEW to this club, it sucks.

But I will agree with most of the others. YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!
People have been right, about telling me where I was wrong on things... we may not have agreements on everything, but they are more right than wrong.

Your wife is ONLY telling you the least amount of info to get you off he back and you are hearing exactly WHAT you want to hear, because your brain wants HER to be telling you the truth.
Just as her brain has to lie to herself about her action to justify what she is doing.

You don't know how long they have been doing this. And since they work LONG hours together, its easy for them to meet up while YOU are at work and spend sexy time with each other.
Yeah, I thought I could be OKAY with my WW (Wayward Wife) co-worker. Work things out... maybe I am just imagining things. (I came here too late, by 2 months) The social meeting with the doc & wife, not going to happen. HE is your enemy. Your wife is also your enemy. There shouldn’t be anything “AWKWARD” if SHE and her Dr.Boyfriend were honest and respectful to you and his wife. But that’s not happening.
If you think it hurts now, it hurts 100X more when you know the real truth.

I've recently broke bones and dislocations in my shoulder and hip that happened 3 months, I'm in pain daily and going to PT – laying down to sleep is a pain, and will continue for another 2~3 months. ugh
Compared to what I went through with the affair and the destruction of my family, its was NOTHING.
I’d rather choose the broken bones than the heart-ache of what she did, which is kind of like – being stabbed in the heart, ripped out of your chest and stomped on. Then saying “I love you, I’m just not IN-LOVE with you”.

The cheaters that COMES out to the betrayed out of guilt, is more likely to repair the relationship.
The cheaters who are busted, don’t want their candy taken away – they are an “adult” and you don’t own them. Think of your wife as a crack-user, but for someone else’ penis. She will steal to pay or that.

Being in the hospital a lot lately, I see SO many hallways behind restricted areas… it’s a maze of rooms, halls, closets, work-stations, etc. If there is a group of cheaters, they may help each other out (Look out) and allow a friend to have SEX time with another co-worker in an empty patient room. And if the Doctor has an office – that works too. Sure, hospitals have lots of cameras – but not in every room. Just where they are needed for obvious reasons. So yeah, having sex at work happens. Even school teachers have sex AT SCHOOL. The curfew thing is for children and really won't work... won't stop them from having sex in an empty room, the park, a bathroom stall, a car, etc... all of that is EXCITING and naughty.

My WW had sex with the POSOM at work. She told me that it happened and that they got caught by their boss with security camera. LOL! He was a POS – but I digress. 

So, look at contacting the doc’s wife. Talk about the texting going on. You messed things up with the phone, so try to be calm and take the best ideas of everyone here and see what works best for you.

In truth: your wife is LYING to you. Her reactions to you busting her, is disturbing. She’ll be looking to dis-arm your suspensions. But not actually looking to change what she is doing unless she is knocked out of her fog. Even if you get her to read “Not just friends” – she may not soak it in at first.

Look at the simple little lie about the missing phone messages. Of course she would lie about kissing, BJs, sex in all holes. So when she starts talking a little bit “we just kissed”… nope, its never just a “kiss”.

Do your best to keep your head on straight.

She is *NOT* your wife. Mine wasn’t either.

PS: Get a REAL VAR. An old cell phone is unreliable. Maybe it’ll beep or vibrate or not work. Also record when you are having SERIOUS talks with her, to compare notes of what she said one time, and how her story changes laters.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...ony+voice+recorder&sprefix=sony+voice,aps,154

Look at the SONY PX3333 for $52 will be your best bet. Don’t use cheap $20 junk.

Good luck. Its too bad the game has changed on you… it happens. Even I got sloppy and things went south because of that.

PS2: Your wife is into BDSM / 50 shades of grey stuff. Its easy for your doctor bud to be into that short of thing, or somehow learn to make her fantasies come true.
When you both are in a good place (hopefully) - let her read the kinky stuff to you, while she is playing with you... share some aspects of each other.


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## See_Listen_Love

MWP, you could put the texts in a post here. I have seen before the other posters discover things you yourself would not notice.


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## Sports Fan

Do not be naive about this. At the very least this is an emotional affair. If it has not gone physical yet and that is a big if then it will. 100% guarantee that.

Cut this nonsense out hard and fast. Stop deluding yourself about the amount of text messages they are sending each other. How can you call 8 messages after work hours not excessive? And 8 is on the minimum end. There were times you caught over 30 in a day and after you had gone to bed. 

Unless there is an emergency at work there should be no messages after hours period.

Simply put rain down a sh...it storm on this now no messages, no lunches, no nothing before your marriage goes down the toilet.

We are on your side and speak from past experience.


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## MattMatt

It is likely that your wife and her POSOM are urinating on you and are trying to tell you that it is only some rain. 

Put your umbrella up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Or as we say in the South,"Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining."


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## phillybeffandswiss

MovingFrwrd said:


> Everyone has their reasons for reading or not reading communications.
> 
> Trust me when I say it's a horrible road to try to recover from. Should R be attempted, triggers are much more numerous even in how they addressed their AP. Songs they talked about, places it happened, comments they made to each other, pet names, stupid happy birthday crud, planning dates with each other, talking about having her period so she couldn't do anything 'nutty' etc. Dates that things happened get drilled into your brain. You start pain shopping, matching up dates with important dates in your life (birthdays, holidays, business conventions, anniversaries, celebrations, etc.) and you're triggering on things you never knew you would trigger on.
> 
> If you know you're not interested in R, feel free to go hog wild. If you do want to recover the marriage, this is a difficult thing to return from. You can never un-see that information, so proceed with caution.


...but you know the truth. Sorry, you do not know if they are much more numerous or worse. You do not know if R is harder without reading texts, just like I do not know if R is harder with facts.
"Trust me" when I say I had ALL of these issues and never saw the one definitive message which proved if it was physical or not. The only difference is my mind played games, making up scenarios, when I triggered. You had facts something I did not.


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## re16

One question about the text messages, if she has an iphone and is using imessage, most of the texts won't show up on the phone bill and comparing the number of texts on the phone bill to what has been deleted may be way way off. There could be tons of imessages back and forth that are being deleted.

I would say if you have access, you really need to activate a 2nd device that will also receive the texts. Just make sure you have her phone for couple of hours when you make the switch because an apple message will pop up and another one will be emailed.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

MWP,

I reread your posts sir. I am firmly convinced you know more than you are revealing. Do not accept her explanations and comments to you at face value. Be skeptical. Be very skeptical. As one of my friends used to say "TSAR",....that shyt ain't right. Do not let her play you Marine. She is treating you as someone told me on this site as a mushroom... Feed them shyt and keep them in the dark. Do not let her gas light you.


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## TDSC60

MWP has been missing for a couple of days. Makes me wonder if he found his smoking gun.


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## Tobyboy

TDSC60 said:


> MWP has been missing for a couple of days. Makes me wonder if he found his smoking gun.


I was just going to post the same. 

You ok MWP?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor

Hope you're doing okay MWP. To a degree, I feel that things may not be. As you get closer to the truth, without a bit more time of planning - things go to south really quick.

Your GUT has been telling you one thing, but you don't want it to be true - even when YOU know you're being lied to.

Looking at the text on my wife's phone last December, when they are talking about being seen "fu~~ing" by someone else, she said it was a joke. (There were HAHA) in the text too.
It tore me up, when things blew up, blaming me for jealousy and had me thinking "I must have been wrong" they did not have sex.

Part of rebuilding trust is being HONEST and admitting wrong doing. She did tell me the truth. They *DID* have sex that night. Did not sting much, but it was a validation of truth as I figured it and helps in healing.

The experiences we have delt with before you came here, and learning about the stories from others... we see nothing but RED FLAGS with what you told us.

If things go to crap on your end, VENT here. We don't get enjoy gaining a member to the BS club, but many of us are here to HELP you as we have been helped.
People here can help you cope, regroup, plan and how to heal.

Until a person has been cheated on, they DON'T know the pain of betrayal.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

TaDor, you are right on the money. I hope for MWP we are all wrong by some sliver of chance. I re-read his posts, and I am with you on this one. On a side note take oil based vitamin c and it will help heal your bones.


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## 225985

alte Dame said:


> My .02 is that she is VERY flattered by this man's attentions.
> 
> She is in an EA.
> 
> He is grooming her. I don't believe that busy, grown men typically spend their free time texting platonically with female coworkers. He's grooming your W.


Why is it always the con-artist other man "grooming" the unsuspecting, naive cheating wife? Maybe she is chasing him. 

She knows what she is doing. Very clearly. 

And no, grown men do not platonically text female coworkers. And she knows that.


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## drifting on

Mwp

Praying that things have not blown up and that you are the shell of a man I once was. Prayers and thoughts for from my end, update when you can, vent if needed, you have great support on your thread by great posters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wizernow

Has anyone suggested op send his wife to the guest bedroom if she wants to crap all over reasonable marriage boundaries?

Or what about visiting a divorce attorney, separating finances, checking your options. Get mentally prepared for your life beyond her nonsense.

Filing papers might be just what she needs.

Do you have a mutual pastor? Might want to give him a call to talk sense into her head (unless he's clueless and thinks opposite sex friendships out of marriage are ok).

You need to tough love her, not soft peddle, imo.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

You cannot nice them back. Extreme situations require extreme and swift actions. You must hit them before they expect anything,


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## BetrayedDad

blueinbr said:


> Why is it always the con-artist other man "grooming" the unsuspecting, naive cheating wife?


Some will NEVER accept their wives WANT to be groomed and HARD by other men.


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## alte Dame

blueinbr said:


> Why is it always the con-artist other man "grooming" the unsuspecting, naive cheating wife? Maybe she is chasing him.
> 
> She knows what she is doing. Very clearly.
> 
> And no, grown men do not platonically text female coworkers. And she knows that.


I didn't say that she is naive. Or unsuspecting. I also didn't say that he is a con artist. I said that he is grooming her.

I think that she knows exactly what she is doing. She gets a thrill every time she gets a text. She anticipates them. It's taking over her head space. It's backgrounding her family. She's not an idiot who is unaware of what she is doing.

But....many women are simply clueless about the possibility of a platonic relationship with a man. Does she realize that he is grooming her? Probably not, in my opinion. This isn't naivete. This is just a difference in the way men and women perceive different types of relationships.


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## 225985

*Wife is &quot;just friends&quot; with male co-worker?*



alte Dame said:


> I didn't say that she is naive. Or unsuspecting. I also didn't say that he is a con artist. I said that he is grooming her.
> 
> I think that she knows exactly what she is doing. She gets a thrill every time she gets a text. She anticipates them. It's taking over her head space. It's backgrounding her family. She's not an idiot who is unaware of what she is doing.
> 
> But....many women are simply clueless about the possibility of a platonic relationship with a man. Does she realize that he is grooming her? Probably not, in my opinion. This isn't naivete. This is just a difference in the way men and women perceive different types of relationships.




What does that even mean, that he is grooming her? Guys don't always have this master well thought out plan to get in a woman's pants. This is implying he is more at fault. Maybe she is grooming him.

Most women can tell if a guy is interested in them.


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## alte Dame

*Re: Wife is &quot;just friends&quot; with male co-worker?*



blueinbr said:


> What does that even mean, that he is grooming her? Guys don't always have this master well thought out plan to get in a woman's pants. This is implying he is more at fault. Maybe she is grooming him.
> 
> Most women can tell if a guy is interested in them.


Here's the thing - a lot of women (a LOT) really can't tell if a man is interested. Women have endless conversations with one another trying to suss out whether a man is interested. Any woman will have lots of stories about the times they thought they were 'friends' with some guy and were surprised that he was interested.

What do I mean when I say he is grooming her? I mean that he is interested in sex and knows that she will have to be effectively seduced into it. He most likely isn't interested in leaving his W and just wants something on the side. For her part, she is very flattered and is being seduced. She's not really thinking about consequences; she's just flattered and thrilled to have his interest. She knows it's wrong to feel this way, but tells herself that he isn't interested in her 'in that way.' She most likely believes that in large part.

So, of course she isn't blameless. She's willingly going down this road. But I think she is much less self-aware in this than the OM.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Wife is &quot;just friends&quot; with male co-worker?*



alte Dame said:


> Here's the thing - a lot of women (a LOT) really can't tell if a man is interested. Women have endless conversations with one another trying to suss out whether a man is interested. Any woman will have lots of stories about the times they thought they were 'friends' with some guy and were surprised that he was interested.
> 
> 
> 
> What do I mean when I say he is grooming her? I mean that he is interested in sex and knows that she will have to be effectively seduced into it. He most likely isn't interested in leaving his W and just wants something on the side. For her part, she is very flattered and is being seduced. She's not really thinking about consequences; she's just flattered and thrilled to have his interest. She knows it's wrong to feel this way, but tells herself that he isn't interested in her 'in that way.' She most likely believes that in large part.
> 
> 
> 
> So, of course she isn't blameless. She's willingly going down this road. But I think she is much less self-aware in this than the OM.




I remember reading about a study, i will need to google it, about op sex friendships. The study concluded that men were much more likely to think the women were interested in them, than the reverse, by a large margin. 

So the guy is actually responding to his perceived interest the wife has for him, including sex, while she just may want a friend. It really is the guy misreading the signals. Or she is emitting those signs whether or not she knows it. 

Not grooming. He thinks she wants sex with him by the way she is acting and he is responding.


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## alte Dame

I don't disagree with you on much of this. I think that she is actually more mentally engaged herself than the 'just friends' thing. She just tells herself that he's not interested in that.

I think, though, that we may have different definitions of grooming. For me, his conscious pursuit of her, as a married man, in which he develops an intimate conversational relationship with her in the hope of sex, all the while probably believing that she thinks they are 'just friends - this, to me, is grooming.


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## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Wife is &quot;just friends&quot; with male co-worker?*



alte Dame said:


> Here's the thing - a lot of women (a LOT) really can't tell if a man is interested. Women have endless conversations with one another trying to suss out whether a man is interested. Any woman will have lots of stories about the times they thought they were 'friends' with some guy and were surprised that he was interested.
> 
> What do I mean when I say he is grooming her? I mean that he is interested in sex and knows that she will have to be effectively seduced into it. He most likely isn't interested in leaving his W and just wants something on the side. For her part, she is very flattered and is being seduced. She's not really thinking about consequences; she's just flattered and thrilled to have his interest. She knows it's wrong to feel this way, but tells herself that he isn't interested in her 'in that way.' She most likely believes that in large part.
> 
> So, of course she isn't blameless. She's willingly going down this road. But I think she is much less self-aware in this than the OM.


All of this, yes all, can be applied to "A lot" of men.


alte Dame said:


> I don't disagree with you on much of this. I think that she is actually more mentally engaged herself than the 'just friends' thing. She just tells herself that he's not interested in that.
> 
> I think, though, that we may have different definitions of grooming. For me, his conscious pursuit of her, as a married man, in which he develops an intimate conversational relationship with her in the hope of sex, all the while probably believing that she thinks they are 'just friends - this, to me, is grooming.


He could be doing and thinking exact same thing.


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## TaDor

Thing about “Grooming”, I feel there are two types of grooming. There is the more typical GUY thing to get what he wants by a little push to his target to get sex/whatever. But the more concerning GROOMING is when he’s a predator with a game plan from beginning to end – to get laid at her expense no matter the damage.
Chooses a target, open communications, drop seeds, BS into the woman's hearts and panties. Some will groom to purposely destroy a relationship to GET the girl, even so much as using another guy as a pawn. Ugh.

Life is already hard.

There are things we may not notice when it happens to us...
As my WW told me more TRUTH about the POSOM / affair. I was able to see and point out things *HE* did that were selfish and bull-S on his end of things. Yeah, *SHE* did want the affair at the time, and she was dominating him... but he used some tactics on her. I pointed out some BS lies she didn't see at the time, as what he told her and his actions *DID* not match.

But I saw the text and actions of a selfish 21 yr old. (1) The day they admitted they were going behind my back. My WW said she was "scared to go there" (cheat on me). POSOM response was "Don't be. Come over and we'll talk" (to their place of work) and she did. I have the screen shots. An honest person who cared about another - wouldn't play with their "lovers" feelings. From that point onward - things went down-hill quickly.

(2) After I kicked her out, she and the POSOM "dated" and were kind-of open. In a matter of 3 weeks, the fog was lifting. She doesn’t have a car (both cars are my property), and he only recently got a car. POSOM would drive out to visit, date, sex. But she was finally seeing what others saw/knew. Without the fantasy, it was just sex and booze, but at this point – she hadn’t touched the bottle for 5 weeks… that there wasn’t really much of a “relationship” there and of course “our son” was of no consequence to him. I told her SHE would have to end the relationship on her terms, but I would be involved. Our CC told her that too… and hours later, she decided to end it. BTW the WW and I were together all day, no texting, etc. He tried to see if he could “come out and talk”, etc. But she shot him down HER way when she dumped him, her words – that she showed me, in real time on her phone while I sat next to her.

That was MORE real and showing remorse than ME helping her to tell the POSOM how to F-OFF in any shape or form as I had done the last two times. She then deleting all photos of/with POSOM. I told her to delete the entire TEXT history between the two of them, rather than keep it on the phone for me to review. There was NOTHING there I needed to see – as I knew that it would only hurt me or both of us.


(I guess were hijacking this thread until OP returns - wishing him the best of luck)


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## MWP

Hello all...thanks for all of your responses!

I couldn't STFU anymore and had to take a stance. I confronted her with it, head on. The friendship is over and there is to be no contact outside of work. AT ALL. There are to be no lunches together. No further contact other than seeing patients.

We both agreed on these parameters. Although I'm satisfied with laying out the ground rules, my eyes and ears remain open. 

I will keep this thread updated with any changes. So far, three days of ZERO texts. Either she talked to him or there is an alternate method of communicating. Hence, keeping eyes and ears open.


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## farsidejunky

Burner phone.


----------



## straightshooter

MWP said:


> Hello all...thanks for all of your responses!
> 
> I couldn't STFU anymore and had to take a stance. I confronted her with it, head on. The friendship is over and there is to be no contact outside of work. AT ALL. *There are to be no lunches together. No further contact other than seeing patients.*
> 
> We both agreed on these parameters. Although I'm satisfied with laying out the ground rules, my eyes and ears remain open.
> 
> I will keep this thread updated with any changes. So far, three days of ZERO texts. Either she talked to him or there is an alternate method of communicating. Hence, keeping eyes and ears open.



MWP,

Nice move. But this ain't over. You did great confronting her head on. But understand this, you got a ****load of resistance since you opened this thread and a lot of bull **** from her. Understand that in most cases, that means there is a higher likelihood that they will just take it underground further.

They are in proximity to each other constantly or daily so how on earth do you have any idea if they are just discussing work and not going to lunch????? or worse???* because she says so?*

They have ample opportunity and even more so in a hospital setting that an office setting. And workplace affairs are always the most difficult to stop .

Now she has gas lighted you for who knows how long. my recommendation to you is to NOT accept this verbal agreement that cannot be monitored by you in any way, shape, or form without some CIA tactics.

You need to VAR her car, and tell her at some point she is going to take a polygraph test, and the questions will be so simple a four year old would ask them.

her reaction to that will tell you something just by the look on her face. When she turns as white as Casper the Ghost you will know that you have just thrown a major monkey wrench into her plans. 

if in a month or two she has honored the agreement, she should want to be sprinting to the examiners office. Remember buddy, you are at this point because of her actions, not yours.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

farsidejunky said:


> Burner phone.


Keep your eyes open. It sounds too easy. Now is time for your VAR. is she changing jobs? If not, what did you solve? Wake up Marine.


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## VladDracul

Before some of you get too comfortable with the "WS is showing remorse. I won, the AP lost", I just want to point out when you've been around the criminal justice system very long, you begin to realize the perp will plead to lower crime and agree to fines and community service to escape the full force of the law. If that pleading indicates they have changed internally, only they know.


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## Malaise

MWP said:


> Hello all...thanks for all of your responses!
> 
> I couldn't STFU anymore and had to take a stance. I confronted her with it, head on. The friendship is over and there is to be no contact outside of work. AT ALL. There are to be no lunches together. No further contact other than seeing patients.
> 
> We both agreed on these parameters. Although I'm satisfied with laying out the ground rules, my eyes and ears remain open.
> 
> I will keep this thread updated with any changes. So far, three days of ZERO texts. Either she talked to him or there is an alternate method of communicating. Hence, keeping eyes and ears open.


 Too easy.


----------



## 225985

I do not know what kind of medical professional your wife is, but I have never seen a doctor communicate via person phone to nurses about a patient. Other doctors, yes. 

My wife was in the hospital for a week for a major surgery. I have seen the nurses carry a work phone, passed on to each other at shift change, that is used for work. Maybe for the nurses to check with each other about a patient if they missed something at their turnover meeting. Or for them the reach the doctor. Certainly other means of communications via work is possible, include work email systems.

If she is really hooked on the guy it will be hard on her. I am not saying she is a victim, just giving you one possible reality. Having temptation for some contact if she needs her fix of his attention is something that you should discuss with your wife. 

This will be hard, but can you acknowledge she might be addicted to the guy and would you be willing to tell her to contact you immediately when she feels the need to talk to the other man? That might be better than her just sneaking in one quick fix.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Marine I know we are wired to charge right into battle, but this is a situation where force needs to be tampered down and you need to become a covert operator. Far side is right on mark about burner phone. Now that the heat was turned up your VAR could expose more as the chatter is very likely to increase. My advice is once you have VAR in place tell your wife you are also thinking of telling his wife about inappropriate text messages. Watch her facial expressions and first thing she will likely do is contact POSOM. 

Have your searched her vehicle? Have you searched your house?


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## MWP

farsidejunky said:


> Burner phone.


VAR :grin2:


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## Evinrude58

MWP said:


> Hello all...thanks for all of your responses!
> 
> I couldn't STFU anymore and had to take a stance. I confronted her with it, head on. The friendship is over and there is to be no contact outside of work. AT ALL. There are to be no lunches together. No further contact other than seeing patients.
> 
> We both agreed on these parameters. Although I'm satisfied with laying out the ground rules, my eyes and ears remain open.
> 
> I will keep this thread updated with any changes. So far, three days of ZERO texts. Either she talked to him or there is an alternate method of communicating. Hence, keeping eyes and ears open.


I'm curious about what she admitted to in all this. If she was pretty honest and open, admitted she was thinking about the guy and that it was inappropriate and that the deleted texts were inappropriate and how sorry she was=== you're probably out of the woods.
However, if she admitted nothing and never admitted to inappropriate texts that she deleted, what they were, and was remorseful----- YOU'RE likely in DEEP trouble and as said-- too freaking easy.

Emotional affairs, physical affairs-- they don't end until nuclear bomb type events occur.
JMO


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## ButtPunch

This thread really has my Spidey Senses tingling for some reason.


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## Malaise

They don't need to text, they work together.

She tells you, and agrees to, things you want to hear.


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## 225985

ButtPunch said:


> This thread really has my Spidey Senses tingling for some reason.


Fully agree. Nevertheless, the advice given is sound and will be here for future TAMers seeking help. 

I found TAM because of a specific thread title fitting my situation (I did a search on the keywords) was listed in google and I followed the trail and joined TAM.

Wish @MattMatt was here. :wink2:


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## turnera

What has she agreed to, or offered, in terms of proving to you that she is not in contact with him?


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## 225985

turnera said:


> What has she agreed to, or offered, in terms of proving to you that she is not in contact with him?


Help us with this T. She can easily prove if she is in contact with him, but how does she prove she is not?


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

ButtPunch said:


> This thread really has my Spidey Senses tingling for some reason.


Mine too....big time!


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## 225985

Am I being an overprotective jerk? Should I let them be “just friends” and do nothing? Has anyone else ever experienced this? From what you’ve read, does it seem like they’re just good friends? So am I stressing over nothing?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes :wink2: (Spidey wink)


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## TaDor

MWP said:


> I couldn't STFU anymore and had to take a stance. I confronted her with it, head on. The friendship is over and there is to be no contact outside of work. AT ALL. There are to be no lunches together. No further contact other than seeing patients.
> 
> We both agreed on these parameters. Although I'm satisfied with laying out the ground rules, my eyes and ears remain open.
> 
> I will keep this thread updated with any changes. So far, three days of ZERO texts. Either she talked to him or there is an alternate method of communicating. Hence, keeping eyes and ears open.


Confronted what? If its Just friends, she didn't argue?
What did she admit to doing?
Did you discuss this with the good doctor and his wife?
Did you put the VAR in her car?

Hmmm... I remembered when my wife AGREED to stop being "friends" with her co-worker, that they were not F~having sex too.
She was cheating on me before and AFTER she agreed. Didn't stop her/them one bit.

Geez, how did people cheat before cellphones?

If this IS all you have for confrontation... you stopped nothing.
Cheaters get a *high* from the naughty of doing something they aren't supposed to be doing.


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## MattMatt

Some people can handle having friendships with people of the oposite sex. 

But others, quite clearly, can't.

This latter type are at risk of having an affair with a colleague.

But!! They are also at risk of having an affair with the mailman/woman, someone they meet in the local grocer's shop, someone on Facebook etc. Etc etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT

MWP,

There are still a few concrete things you can do.

Ask your W if she will take a polygraph and then go through with it. You don't want to feel doubt for 5, 10 or 20 years.

Find out what the history of this doctor is, he may be a stealthy serial cheater, in that case you can spill the beans to the betrayed husbands of prior affair partners of the doctor. With any luck they will do some of your a** kicking work for you. I saw OM2 out on lunch with what appeared to be nurses a few times. 

Speak with the doctors wife she may be a long suffering spouse of a serial cheater and may be willing to give you information.

You might forgive your wife, but the OM has strayed into forbidden territory and should have known better.

Tamat


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## barbados

MWP said:


> Hello all...thanks for all of your responses!
> 
> I couldn't STFU anymore and had to take a stance. I confronted her with it, head on. The friendship is over and there is to be no contact outside of work. AT ALL. There are to be no lunches together. No further contact other than seeing patients.
> 
> We both agreed on these parameters. Although I'm satisfied with laying out the ground rules, my eyes and ears remain open.
> 
> I will keep this thread updated with any changes. So far, three days of ZERO texts. Either she talked to him or there is an alternate method of communicating. Hence, keeping eyes and ears open.


You forgot the most important part, 

SHE CANNOT WORK WITH HIM ANYMORE.

without that all the above is meaningless.


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## bandit.45

Never piss off your mailman, never buy shoes that are too tight, and never marry a nurse.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

My nephew would agree 100%


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## straightshooter

Any one whose "spidey senses" (LOL) are not tingling on this one doesn't have any senses to be "spidey"

MWP, have you read these responses. No one is buying that you have gotten anything but the usual cheater garble.

Play ostrich at your own risk or play James Bond and save yourself some bit time grief


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## TDSC60

Much too easy...... and no logic to it at all.

If texting was the main means of contact during work hours - why has it stopped? If the texting was all about patient care - why has it stopped? Obviously those two excuses where bullshyte. So was the texting him about food while she was on a trip. She texted him more than she texted you. That alone should show you where you stand with her.

Then there is her life long belief that a man and a woman cannot be just friends - she kind of forgot all about that with him involved.

VAR in the car is a good idea. A GPS in her car is even better. Don't depend on the find-my-phone app. Phones can be left in a purse.

Play it cool like everything is OK now, but don't drop your guard. I am afraid this is not over yet and you have just seen the tip of the iceberg.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Once again she has the upper hand sir. She is flat out telling you what you want to hear. Do not believe her. Cheaters lie.


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## TDSC60

TaDor said:


> Confronted what? If its Just friends, she didn't argue?
> What did she admit to doing?
> Did you discuss this with the good doctor and his wife?
> Did you put the VAR in her car?
> 
> Hmmm... I remembered when my wife AGREED to stop being "friends" with her co-worker, that they were not F~having sex too.
> She was cheating on me before and AFTER she agreed. Didn't stop her/them one bit.
> 
> Geez, how did people cheat before cellphones?
> 
> If this IS all you have for confrontation... you stopped nothing.
> Cheaters get a *high* from the naughty of doing something they aren't supposed to be doing.


Before cell phones?

Cheating coworkers were the hardest to catch. A lunch time "nooner" - no problem. A friend of mine (pre cell phone) caught his wife and a coworker because he just happened to walk past the restaurant where they were having an intimate lunch together. Until that, he did not have a clue.

In my opinion cell phones make them easier to catch at first. But if the betrayed focuses on the phone after the first confrontation, it is too easy to just switch to IM or face-to-face communication or burner phones, The possibilities are endless.

That is why I am a proponent of keeping cool and gathering undeniable evidence before confronting. Confronting too early, which is what I fear has happened here, just puts the cheater on guard and drives them underground as evidenced by the total sudden stoppage of texting.


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## 225985

Get her drunk and she will admit it.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

I hope I'm wrong but I have a feeling the story is not going to have a happy ending


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## Evinrude58

I think op has done what he can. If this wife wants another man and wants to cheat, OP is going to get divorced regardless. If she isn't guilty, he has a chance to work on his marriage. If she is guilty, he will eventually find out and they can divorce. If she's lost feelings for OP, it's already over and he just doesn't know it yet. 

Find a way to Check bases without doing something stupid like humiliating her. 
If she spends time with op and they are having fun, he's probably ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor

The reason WE WANT to believe what the cheater is SAYING to us... is because of the fear of the truth. "Okay, I told her(him) that they better behave. She says they are just friends and I have nothing to be jealous about" / "Your paranoia and jealousy is hurt our marriage" - blah blah. So I think we go with it, hoping she (they) got the message and all will be good. But as we see time and time again, they go underground and play "smile and wave".


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## alte Dame

Did you contact his W? (Sorry, don't remember.)

If not, you should do this. She could be talked into believing that it's harmless but at least her antennae will be up.


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## drifting on

Mwp

So she won't text after work hours, won't socialize as couples with you and OMW included, will only have contact for patient care. Well, you have the rarest cheating wife I think anyone has ever seen. You should consider yourself the most lucky person in the world!!!

Of course she will only talk to him regarding patient care. Of course she will not meet him for chats at work. Of course she admitted what she has done was wrong. Of course she will tell you if he tries to speak with her about personal issues. Of course he will honor the agreement between you and your wife. Of course he will back off just like your wife, they have vows to others and they are the most important. Of course your wife will never call him from a hospital phone to talk about personal issues. Of course your wife will not get a burner phone. Of course your wife wouldn't cheat, he loves his wife too much. How much does your wife love you? Do you believe this after she deleted only his texts? To conserve room on her phone? Or so that you can't see the I love you's she texted to him. Of course, and this is the best, she won't send him food pictures NOR talk to him about eating at restaurants. 

Mwp you need to pull your head out of your a$$. You need to get tough, you need to get angry, and you need to confront OM's wife and then him. Tell him what you will do if he doesn't disappear. Tell the licensing board, tell the hospital HR, then give your wife divorce papers and ask her to fill out her sections. Rock her boat violently, as others have said, this is going to end terribly for you. But not to worry, your wife will be fine with OM. Oh, I damn near forgot, since food is such an interest with them both, of course they won't share forks anymore at lunch. I feel terrible for you, you still don't get what is happening in front of your own eyes. The VAR you have, worthless in my opinion, she can talk to OM all she wants on shift. Why talk in the car or house when you can in person?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stillthinking

Just an idea, maybe there is some middle ground here between trusting her at her word and Drifting's scorched earth policy (which I am a fan of myself)

Since she is so agreeable to your terms right now. It might be time to play a little long game.

Maybe you could lay low for a couple of weeks. Keep watching and such. But act like its all good now. 

Then schedule a poly, tell her the day/evening before she has to take it. You could mention the questions will be about their previous activity as well as recent contact. Have the contact info for his wife on hand.

If she has nothing to hide, she will be fine with taking the test to put your fears to rest. 

If she freaks the hell out, call his wife and out him right then and there. The go full on hard ball, file. Expose to friends and family. etc etc


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## See_Listen_Love

Instead of picking on OP, lets try to help him in the actual situation that is present right now. 

The positive point is that OP has got the message and laid down some rules. So he is working on it.
The negative is she may hide now and be undetectable for him. Let's face the possibility it is not a PA. Let's look out for red flags that say otherwise.

I have seen multiple times that the combined power of posters can get behind what really happens with very little to work from.


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## destroyd

I'm sorry, but You need to seriously investigate. Don't think you have gotten the whole story and just let it go. I'm a survivor of a workplace affair between my wife and her superior. Very close to the same dynamic as OP's situation- he's the rockstar around the place, just like the doctors are where your wife works. I managed to see a few texts between them with my own eyes when I felt they were 'a little too close' and thats how I discovered the affair. The texts were not concrete evidence of a physical affair, but I knew it was by knowing her- she wouldnt have been texting him like that (afterhours, and weekends) and password protecting her phone if it wasnt. She deleted them before I could make a copy- and then gaslighted the **** out of me- swearing on our children and a stack of bibles that 'it was nothing' and they were 'just friends'. I stewed on it for about 10 days while I searched phone records, read websites, read all the old texts between myself and her and looked at the volume of texts between her and me, vs. him and her and I KNEW there was more to it. I went after her hammer and tongs- and made a few educated guesses and bluffed her into thinking I had been having her surveilled- and broke her down and extracted a confession from her. I was lucky in that it worked, and I got a confession. But, It was MUCH worse than I was prepared for. Sex in offices behind locked doors multiple times a week, whole nights of sex on business trips where she would call me after supper and chat and talk to our kids- then have all niters with OM. Shenanigans in vehicles at lunchtime. etc... 

My point is- the only clues I had to this were about the same Ievel of texts you have found and a feeling that they were too close, and things were 'off'. Do NOT say to yourself "my wife would never do that". If mine would, yours is capable of it as well. I would NOT let it rest, and take any measures possible to get more info and keep an eye on it. If she is in an affair, you've just driven her 100 miles underground. You are going to have to resort to extreme measures to break it out at this point.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

If I had not read the standard evidence thread and other info on here and searched my wife's SUV, computer, iPad,iPhone, and every drawer and closet I would not have hit pay dirt in our guest bedroom as I found in the closet racy underwear, and other lingerie I had never seen before. What I am telling MWP is become a sleuth. Get evidence.


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## destroyd

Oh, yes- another thing- the romance novels. 

"Here is another aspect of the relationship I didn't mention before. She was/is addicted to romance novels. I'm not talking about the lovey dovey books, but the tie you up and ram my manhood into you type of books. She would read the books in bed, and roll over on me eager to have sex even if I'm almost asleep. At first, I thought it was great. Then I got to thinking, it's not ME that's turning her on. She was climbing on me with the scenes and characters of those books in her mind. I dug into her Kindle and Nook and found literally hundreds of erotica books. Being in charge of the money, I saw that she spent about $150 in just two months on these books. Keep in mind, these are e-books which are $1-$10 that the most or $15 for a box set. We did have a talk about that one." 

My wife- in the year or so before the affair did the EXACT same thing. Raunchy novels. I didnt know she was reading such raunchy stuff. We normally read about the same stuff. I knew she began reading romance novels, and I just didnt give it much weight. My mother read romance novels- I thought what my wife was reading was similar. I hate to sound cliche', but it seemed to start with "fifty shades" and then took a turn into other authors even more hardcore- she got a taste of smut- then went searching for it- apparently literally. Like you say, she had read a ton of them in a short period of time. I only discovered the extent of filth she was reading when I was researching and crawling up her ass with a microscope after the affair was discovered. 

Combine that scenario with a younger, hipster, OM who is at the top of his field but and making big money hitting on her day after day.... you are in a fight for your marriage- you need to start acting like it.


----------



## TX-SC

So, your wife is addicted to porn? I think that may be your biggest issue right NOW. I'm still not totally convinced she is cheating on you.


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## cgiles

Out of curiosity, did you asked her to imagine you sending message outside of work hours to a coworker, and how she would react ?

Seen she have some double standard about it, it would be interesting to know how she would react.


----------



## drifting on

See_Listen_Love said:


> Instead of picking on OP, lets try to help him in the actual situation that is present right now.
> 
> The positive point is that OP has got the message and laid down some rules. So he is working on it.
> The negative is she may hide now and be undetectable for him. Let's face the possibility it is not a PA. Let's look out for red flags that say otherwise.
> 
> I have seen multiple times that the combined power of posters can get behind what really happens with very little to work from.





I don't think anyone is here picking on him, but we apparently seem more fearful of his wife then he should be. He seems to think he can rely on a VAR and all will be fine. He appears to be taking his wife at her word. He is anxious as he!! Which is normal, but confronts because his anxiety has gotten the best of him. Investigating now is going to be very difficult, and that's best case scenario. As it is he will need to take a few days off and roam the hospital playing PI to catch his wife. I believe this is more then an EA and is a full blown physical affair. I can certainly hope it is not this way, but I think I would be foolish to believe her gas lighting. Mwp, if you think I was harsh or picking on you, I'm not, I'm trying to show you your world is being invaded, your spouse is accepting the advances, and you need to fire back to save whatever you can.

Two questions, is your wife supportive of telling OMW Of the INAPPROPRIATE contact between her and OM? If she said no, why do you think that is?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MWP

Hey everyone, thanks for the input. I don't have much time right now to type out everything, but I will do a comprehensive reply this weekend with an update.

You all have valid points, and I see where you're coming from. I'll spell it out in more detail over the weekend.

To quickly answer some questions, they are both on a 7-day stretch of off days. They work 7 on / 7 off, and there have been no texts. It could be she either talked to him about it, or it has moved to an app.

I have access to her iPad when she's at work, and I will scour through the purchased apps to see what's been downloaded. I know you can hide apps there, but there is a way to un-hide them as well. 

I have two VAR's working right now.

Like I said, I couldn't STFU. Now that I said something, it puts them on alert...I realize that. That means either the marriage is important enough to comply, or she thinks she can continue without getting caught. Like a previous poster said, I'm playing it cool and seeing what plays out.

We have a family GPS app (Life360) that shows where we are, and I haven't seen any strange activity. I realize she can leave her phone behind, butrepeated phone calls without an answer would tell me something.

I know many of you have had terrible experiences and are trying to keep me from going through the same thing. I appreciate that, and I pray it doesn't happen to me too.


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## GusPolinski

Any response that involves her staying at the same job w/ OM and expecting that there will be no contact w/ respect to anything that doesn't explicitly involve work duties is... well, either amazingly naive or incredibly stupid. Maybe both.

After all, EA + physical proximity to EAP = PA.

That's just common damn sense, and any thought process that either fails or refuses to acknowledge this is... well... I've already said it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

One more thought -- the only type of monitoring that ever really works is monitoring that the monitor_ed_ knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SofaKingWeToddId

@MWP

I've debated whether or not to post on your thread. I was in a very similar situation as you. My wife had a co-worker that she was very close with. After being married around 10 years, her behavior started changing. I suspected something was going on between them. I took a very passive approach and let it fester. (Spoiler alert: being passive is a losing strategy). I did a lot of snooping and found some red flags, but never hard proof. After a few years of obsessing about it, I couldn't take it any more and had her take a polygraph. She ended up admitting to kissing two guys before we were married, but otherwise passed the test. I was a bit shocked she passed. It's taken some time, but we are slowly repairing our marriage. 

I think you should definitely keep your eye on your situation, but please remember that it is possible that there is no affair. (Although her behavior can certainly lead to an affair). 

I guess I don't really have any advice. I just want to let you know there is a chance nothing happened.


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## TaDor

@MWP - Never take it that we are picking on you...

We can't stop her from cheating if that has already happened. Only thing we can do is offer our experience on how to stop / prevent an affair or how to D or R. Some folks here may get WAY excited over busting a cheater.. it happens. I think there are a lot more guys there, than women. But the pain and torment is same for either sex or sexual identity.

When you lost it/blew up before you had more evidence... well, it happens. I did the same. Sometimes, we cannot control ourselves. We would have told you to slow down. You can't be too fast or to slow on these things. I was passive for about two months, thinking one - thing, and trying to work with what I knew.

My wife had told me then "We're friends & co-workers, not F-ing" and I did believe her, then I tried to believe her, then I was trying to find the proof of truth. So in December when she was "just friends" with this guy, yet they had gotten caught on security cam having sex at work. Boss is a pervert prick, who helped to destroy my marriage by offering them options (a place to live) as they were his best employees... as long as they were happy. I didn't know about the camera at work situation until months later when WW told me, when she was telling me about the affair. When the dam broke, while she was at work - it was nasty. Both of us called the cops, I did not let her in "our" home that night... it was a bad night. Thank god I had an old friend visiting from out of town, but she - my wife and I were supposed to go out clubbing that night.

Even if your wife is NOT cheating on you (or aware of it) - the book "not just friends" that I recommended *IS* should be required reading for the both of you - *IF* you both value your marriage.

PS: one of the ways I caught her was the phone traffic between her and the POSOM. The amount and the time of day or night had showed otherwise.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

*Re: Wife is &quot;just friends&quot; with male co-worker?*

MWP, I hate to say it, but you remind me more of Gomer Pyle, than Chesty Puller. Wake up Marine! You have to control your emotions and sort of detach to a degree and gather intel. I just hate to see a fellow jar head go through what I did. improvise , adapt, and overcome! 

I will advise you from the great book the art of war by Sun Tzu" baffle them with confusion, take them by surprise." You have to sit back, be vigilant and STFU.

PS: my dog is named Chesty. I am by no means trying to belittle you, but get you to open your eyes to ensure you grasp the magnitude of your predicament.


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## turnera

If she's in medicine, she should EASILY be able to find another job at another hospital within the next 6 months. IIWY, I would be insisting that she have a new job by then, or I'm either telling HR about both of them or I'm walking. Her choice.


----------



## straightshooter

When are you going to make a major effort to let this doctors wife know what is going on in a setting or manner where your wife cannot intervene. You apparently know this other spouse so you are not faced with the ordeal of trying to find out a lot of stuff.

Since you already know her, you telling her exactly what you have found, exactly what you have discussed with your wife will at least put her on alert and put another set of eyes on them.

I would worry more about her for seven days working with OM and all the opportunity than I would about her reading smut. 

You are not going to get to the bottom of this without the suggestion itor actual forcing of a polygraph. As someone has said, they do not need to communicate much, you have absolutely no way to know what on earth they say to each other at work, and they can be screwing in a number of places in a hospital. 

A PI might catch them leaving the workplace holding hands or kissing, or if followed he might catch them at a hotel.

They know you are on alert. You have been advised to search for a burner phone. That means EVERYWHERE in your home or her car that you would not ordinarily look. That includes her lingerie drawer, closets and coat pockets, and under her seat in car. EVERYWHERE.

Understand please, NO ONE is trying to beat you up here. What we are trying to do is give you the best chance of NOT posting back to us these words

"I should have listened" . "You guys were correct"

Unfortunately, that is what comes back too often.

Go through her list of girlfriends. Is she telling you she is going out with them? Is she telling you she is going shopping for the whole day? Women in affairs of any duration usually cannot keep it to themselves if they have close girlfriends. Yes there are exceptions, as I know since unfortunately my FWW was one who told no one, But many many times here they blab to someone.

And lastly, Tunera told you, medical professionals have no trouble finding other jobs. Your next discussion with her, since you have already told her NC, is to tell her the next stop is her HR Department and that she better keep that in mind.


----------



## Nucking Futs

MWP said:


> Hey everyone, thanks for the input. I don't have much time right now to type out everything, but I will do a comprehensive reply this weekend with an update.
> 
> You all have valid points, and I see where you're coming from. I'll spell it out in more detail over the weekend.
> 
> To quickly answer some questions, they are both on a 7-day stretch of off days. They work 7 on / 7 off, and there have been no texts. It could be she either talked to him about it, or it has moved to an app.
> 
> I have access to her iPad when she's at work, and I will scour through the purchased apps to see what's been downloaded. I know you can hide apps there, but there is a way to un-hide them as well.
> 
> I have two VAR's working right now.
> 
> Like I said, I couldn't STFU. Now that I said something, it puts them on alert...I realize that. That means either the marriage is important enough to comply, or she thinks she can continue without getting caught. Like a previous poster said, I'm playing it cool and seeing what plays out.
> 
> We have a family GPS app (Life360) that shows where we are, and I haven't seen any strange activity. I realize she can leave her phone behind, *butrepeated phone calls without an answer would tell me something.*
> 
> I know many of you have had terrible experiences and are trying to keep me from going through the same thing. I appreciate that, and I pray it doesn't happen to me too.


She can get a burner phone and set up immediate call forwarding on her cell phone to that number, then all calls to her cell will ring straight through to the burner phone. To defeat this call her and tell her to call you right back, caller id will show she's not calling from her own cell.


----------



## TX-SC

Jesus people, he has no valid proof that she's even cheating! Calm down and let him take some time to figure this out. If he listens to some of you he'll destroy his own marriage, possibly for no reason. I do think he should talk to the guy's wife, but just say he's worried that they are getting too close by talking and texting after work hours. He doesn't need to accuse anybody at this point. 

Now, if he does find something, then he should confront and destroy, but he's not there yet. 

All we know is that they were talking and texting a lot. The ONLY piece of evidence he has that is a real red flag is the Dr. saying he missed her. There was nothing from her to the same effect. It may simply be that the Dr. is trying to worm his way in but she is naive and doesn't see it for what it is. 

I hope I'm right. I'm hoping she is NOT cheating or even thinking about it. But I do think they need to talk about her porn addiction.


----------



## LucasJackson

So what's up man? Did you nip it? If you didn't nip it, why didn't you nip it?


----------



## 225985

TX-SC said:


> Jesus people, he has no valid proof that she's even cheating! Calm down and let him take some time to figure this out. If he listens to some of you he'll destroy his own marriage, possibly for no reason. I do think he should talk to the guy's wife, but just say he's worried that they are getting too close by talking and texting after work hours. He doesn't need to accuse anybody at this point.
> 
> Now, if he does find something, then he should confront and destroy, but he's not there yet.
> 
> All we know is that they were talking and texting a lot. The ONLY piece of evidence he has that is a real red flag is the Dr. saying he missed her. There was nothing from her to the same effect. It may simply be that the Dr. is trying to worm his way in but she is naive and doesn't see it for what it is.
> 
> I hope I'm right. I'm hoping she is NOT cheating or even thinking about it. But I do think they need to talk about her porn addiction.


The posters in this thread who have done what the wife is doing know this to be a very serious matter and not a calm down moment. Cheating is the appropriate term. Ever get an "I miss you" text? Instant delete to hide it. They do not come randomly and normally you don't show them to your spouse - for very good reason.

BTW, OP is long gone. I mentioned in your thread why so.


----------



## stillthinking

> The ONLY piece of evidence he has that is a real red flag is the Dr. saying he missed her


I would have to disagree.

She deleted texts to and from the doc before a specific date. 

*She did not delete anyone elses texts from that time period.*

To explain this she gave a bull**** excuse of needing to free up space on her phone. If that was the case, why delete only his texts? And acccording to MWP her phone had plenty of free space on it.

Forget her words for a moment. Actions speak louder than words.

So what logical explaination is there for her actions regarding the deleting of his texts? According to MWP she did not have one, just stood there dumbfounded.

To me...that is a Red Falg.


----------



## TaDor

.. she needed space on her iPhone. Of course, text messages take up no space compared to pics, video and music.

OP said he'll be back this weekend.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Sometimes all you need is ONLY one piece of evidence. I'm pretty sure many of the men and women who caught affairs will say, "the one text/email just didn't sit right so, I checked." Evidence can be one small inconsequential flag. I'm drawing a blank on who told the awful story, but her husband's AP was in the house for a gathering and put an item away in a very specific place. That was all it took for her to know what was going on.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

blueinbr said:


> The posters in this thread who have done what the wife is doing know this to be a very serious matter and not a calm down moment. Cheating is the appropriate term. Ever get an "I miss you" text? Instant delete to hide it. They do not come randomly and normally you don't show them to your spouse - for very good reason.
> 
> BTW, OP is long gone. I mentioned in your thread why so.


He posted Thursday afternoon that he will post a lengthier response this weekend. It's now Saturday morning, let's give him a chance.

My take is he has put her on notice. So now she knows where he stands - in no uncertain terms. If she screws up he can walk away much quicker and easier. It's one thing to cheat, it's a whole 'nother level of [email protected] when you cheat after spouse calls you out an voices suspicions, IMO.

At this point assuming something is going on, I do not think he will find anything without professional help. Wife is on notice. All evidence has been scrubbed from every device. She is going to be extra careful not to leave a trail. Still look for a burner phone - yes - with seven days on/off those seven days could feel like seven years for young lovers.

My advice? Hire a PI in 3 weeks to follow them in the hospital. Let the next shift "On" go by, as she is going to be careful and play things cool. Wait until the next shift "on" 2 weeks later - have a PI follow her then. IN THE MEANTIME - don't discuss it with her AT ALL. Act like Elsa and Let It Go
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I also agree that finding a new job is mandatory. As @turnera said six months should be more than enough time to find something suitable. This will eliminate the day to day "professional" interactions. 

Just remember OP this won't be a cure-all. If she wants this guy it's not going to stop her just because they now work 15, 30, 60 minutes apart. Just makes it less convenient to do so. She's going to need to put a ton of work into rebuilding trust with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 225985

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I also agree that finding a new job is mandatory. As @turnera said six months should be more than enough time to find something suitable. This will eliminate the day to day "professional" interactions.
> 
> Just remember OP this won't be a cure-all. If she wants this guy it's not going to stop her just because they now work 15, 30, 60 minutes apart. Just makes it less convenient to do so. She's going to need to put a ton of work into rebuilding trust with you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So does she quit now? It is easier to find a job when you have one. She will need to explain to her new potential employer why she quit. 

Can she get an immediate transfer?

I worry if she quits and just stays home she will have more time to cheat and hook up.


----------



## rzmpf

blueinbr said:


> I worry if she quits and just stays home she will have more time to cheat and hook up.


She won't have more time than she has now. They can do it at work and their week off, basically any time. If she would work somewhere else she would lose a lot of her opportunities, depending on her work schedule.

But to me the whole situation seems to be rather f** up and if she is really stepping out, then she will probably find someone at a different workplace too. Cheating in that industry is rather prevalent, so people don't care and there are lots of opportunities (APs and beds).


----------



## PhillyGuy13

blueinbr said:


> So does she quit now? It is easier to find a job when you have one. She will need to explain to her new potential employer why she quit.
> 
> Can she get an immediate transfer?
> 
> I worry if she quits and just stays home she will have more time to cheat and hook up.


No I wouldn't have her up and quit. Much easier to search for a job while currently employed. Yes she needs to get out of the hospital so the day to day interactions with Dr. McDreamy end. But my point is if its a full fledged affair they are going to hook up whether they work together or if they are on opposite sides of town. They will find a way.

Also -- I would never demand a cheating spouse quit a job. You don't want to divorce an unemployed spouse - it may factor into support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Here is my take on the whole deal. First, he would not be posting here if he was not concerned there was something going on between wife and Doctor. Secondly, the texting between the two of them. Not to mention the only texts she erases are those from the doc on her phone and nothing else. As my lawyer told me once, "I was was born in the morning, but not this morning". I know from personal experience with a close friend and my nephew who lost their marriages due to their ex- wives each banging the doc they worked with. 
I have warned my son as his fiancé is now in medical school of the fact that hospitals are "Peyton places".


----------



## Malaise

A job change may not matter if she's deep in an affair. It will make things less convenient for them but we've seen people go to extremes in threads.


----------



## drifting on

Job change is a must, being in contact keeps the emotions and feelings fueled. No contact at all us what's needed, and you can't trust her to not have contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

drifting on said:


> Job change is a must, being in contact keeps the emotions and feelings fueled. No contact at all us what's needed, and you can't trust her to not have contact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree, but we need to be realistic about it. It may take some time to find another job, and if she just quits it not only makes it more difficult to find another job but gives her ample time to pursue OM. 

I think she needs to keep the job until she can find another, giving her no more than 6 months, but in the mean time switch her shift so she's off when he's working and he's off when she's working. It's not perfect but if there's something brewing there it may stop it, and if it's past the brewing stage it will at least make it more difficult.


----------



## LucasJackson

Just checking in, did you nip it yet? If you haven't nipped it yet, why haven't you nipped it yet? Nip this in the bud and then work on the relationship. Can't work on the relationship when there are more than 2 people in it and currently there are more than 2 people in yours. Nip it.


----------



## drifting on

Nucking Futs said:


> I agree, but we need to be realistic about it. It may take some time to find another job, and if she just quits it not only makes it more difficult to find another job but gives her ample time to pursue OM.
> 
> I think she needs to keep the job until she can find another, giving her no more than 6 months, but in the mean time switch her shift so she's off when he's working and he's off when she's working. It's not perfect but if there's something brewing there it may stop it, and if it's past the brewing stage it will at least make it more difficult.





I agree with what you say, but she is in healthcare, as a nurse. Currently there is a nursing shortage, finding a job would take less then a month. She shouldn't quit until hired by another healthcare facility, but it would be very simple to do. Also her schedule could be changed as you stated, she could transfer to another unit, different shift (am, pm, midnight), the choices are almost endless. The point is, is she willing to do this to save her marriage? Or is she wanting the affair? It isn't really a nursing shortage either, it's acceptance into nursing school, there are only so many accepted to nursing school. I have seen people turned down for nursing school more then five times, they only have X number of spaces allotted for students. This is to ensure there is a nursing shortage. So that would make this very easy for her to find a new job, those with expierience can basically write their own ticket to better employment. 

It all still comes down to the wife, marriage or affair, what's important to her? Judging from his posts, the affair wins easily, with her actions of contact whenever she likes, I would go scorched earth. That also means she may have to quit BEFORE getting a job to SAVE her marriage. Whatever hardships this brings to the marriage is a direct consequence of choosing to make a stupid choice. No betrayed spouse should be put in the position of having their wayward continue to work with the affair partner. It's a consequence to a bad choice, and if it means quitting without another job then, so be it. She was told contact after hours was off limits, she was warned of such contact, now the betrayed spouse tells her what he needs, and if it's quitting then she quits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

I just have a feeling MWP knows much more than he has posted.


----------



## Malaise

If she doesn't give a crap about the marriage then not working with OM won't matter.



If she did care then they could be joined at the hip at work and it wouldn't matter.



That's what I was trying to say ( badly )



It's up to her.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

@MWP How are you doing?


----------



## drifting on

Sadly, I think we are all basically right. Mwp most likely does know more, this is most likely a full blown affair, big red flag with deleting docs texts. Red flag, we are just friends, red flag, he loves his wife too much, she is counting on Mwp to trust the friendship HE has with OM. She has lied all the way through to now, texts only when Mwp is sleeping or not around. If it wasn't an affair why won't she text a MUTUAL friend with Mwp present? They all socialized together, they use work as the we need to text excuse, I see something building here.

Mwp, you don't have much time, the fact that doc stopped texting means one of two things. First, they have a burner phone, second, or they stopped and your wife told OM not to text and WHY. The why is because you suspect an affair, so what do they do here, gaslight, make you out to be crazy, jealous, destroying your credibility. This is why you needed to contact Mrs doc immediately, so you aren't discredited as soon as you open your mouth. 

I hope the best for you, I hope I'm completely wrong, I hope you have strong action and have your wife reeling backwards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 225985

drifting on said:


> Sadly, I think we are all basically right. Mwp most likely does know more, this is most likely a full blown affair, big red flag with deleting docs texts. Red flag, we are just friends, red flag, he loves his wife too much, she is counting on Mwp to trust the friendship HE has with OM. She has lied all the way through to now, texts only when Mwp is sleeping or not around. If it wasn't an affair why won't she text a MUTUAL friend with Mwp present? They all socialized together, they use work as the we need to text excuse, I see something building here.
> 
> Mwp, you don't have much time, the fact that doc stopped texting means one of two things. First, they have a burner phone, second, or they stopped and your wife told OM not to text and WHY. The why is because you suspect an affair, so what do they do here, gaslight, make you out to be crazy, jealous, destroying your credibility. This is why you needed to contact Mrs doc immediately, so you aren't discredited as soon as you open your mouth.
> 
> I hope the best for you, I hope I'm completely wrong, I hope you have strong action and have your wife reeling backwards.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It does not need to a full blown PA. Even an EA is very damaging to the marriage. 

Her attraction to OM could be love, fog, emotional, addiction, limerence etc. It might not matter to OP but knowing which one it is could help him through this. And help snap her out of this.


----------



## drifting on

blueinbr said:


> It does not need to a full blown PA. Even an EA is very damaging to the marriage.
> 
> Her attraction to OM could be love, fog, emotional, addiction, limerence etc. It might not matter to OP but knowing which one it is could help him through this. And help snap her out of this.




Agreed!! But in my opinion he needs to go scorched earth to stop this now, and yet that doesn't guarantee stoppage either. It's the choice of the wife, she either cares for the marriage or the affair, and from his posts it's not looking good. Full blown EA, in my opinion yes, full blown PA, disheartens ly I have to say yes. Working with each other under stressful situations day in and day out you form a bond. Nurses are a very close knit group, and for good reason, emotionally they rely on each other. Think about what they see, what they treat, and when the doctor joins in, perfect recipe for emotional connection. Doesn't take much from there to start revealing your personal problems either. I'm not saying the medical field is a high infidelity career, but it has the best proponents for infidelity to breed. A hospital I work close to had three ER nurses cheating at the same time, same shift, and all had young kids. Sometimes it's just very depressing to see such weak individuals on a daily basis.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

I should also say my profession is a high infidelity career also. High in other areas also, such as alcoholism.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

drifting on said:


> blueinbr said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not need to a full blown PA. Even an EA is very damaging to the marriage.
> 
> Her attraction to OM could be love, fog, emotional, addiction, limerence etc. It might not matter to OP but knowing which one it is could help him through this. And help snap her out of this.
> 
> 
> 
> A hospital I work close to had three ER nurses cheating at the same time, same shift, and all had young kids. Sometimes it's just very depressing to see such weak individuals on a daily basis.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Every hospital is like this. I could tell all kinds of stories about cheating in hospitals.i think MWP know and can't pull the band aid off. I concur with scorched earth if he wants to save his marriage. I did and it worked as my wife was totally shocked by I went into combat mode.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## straightshooter

He ain't going scorched earth. Would have happened way before now.

This will end when he catches them red handed or she dumps him unfortunately. 

Hope I am wrong, but I would not bet on it.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

I do not understand how he cannot see the view at 30,000 feet. Oh well. He better get ready for a 2x4.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

MWP noticed no posts here of late. I hope everything is okay for you now.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Lonely husband 42301 said:


> MWP noticed no posts here of late. I hope everything is okay for you now.


He hasn't posted in about 10 days, has checked in a couple of times but hasn't posted.

My fear is he has found something not good but is afraid of getting confirmation here.

Or maybe he's following advice and sitting quietly for now, waiting and biding his time.

We may never know but I hope he is OK all things considered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TaDor

MWP : Many of us got here late. And sometimes when things are happening - you are trying to figure things out on your own. I had wish I had the time before - to get advice here. Sometimes even while things are happening, I wish I had posted to get some advice. It may have saved me a lot of headache...

I was actually going to post "I need help on her breaking contact" - but I screwed up and she found out that I knew before I had a chance to talk here.... past is the past in that regard. Looking back, I COULD have talked here while she was in the other room while WWIII was starting between us.

Oh well. We wish you all the best.


----------



## Archangel2

PhillyGuy13 said:


> ...Or maybe he's following advice and sitting quietly for now, waiting and biding his time...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hopefully he is practicing for the most critical acting job in his life. He needs to put on an academy award performance of a clueless husband to lull his wife into letting her guard down.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

From what he posted, reading between the lines, and using deductive logic, it will most likely not turn out well.


----------



## straightshooter

My guess is if he is still checking in is that he has found out some bad **** and is having a hard time admitting publically that the advice he got was correct and that he should have listened.

I hope I am wrong, but if he has been watching for ten days and had installed the VAR he would know something by now. If it was great news, he would be back.


----------



## TaDor

He hasn't been on the site for a good while thou... I think he maybe going through a rough time. Not like we have gone through this. No shame in finding the truth...


----------



## TAMAT

Compared to spending years or decades with an unconfessed and rugswept affair, spending a few months going silent and gathering info. is a good investment.

Possibly a much better investment than a quick divorce as you have the opposite issue of years and decades of feeling you might have unjustly divorced your W.

Sometimes you don't know where the smouldering embers are until they burst into flame.

Tamat


----------



## Jntrs

seems like there might be interest for him coming from her, "he loves his wife too much" but did she ever stated that she would never do that to you? if she didn't that a red flag imho

another thing is that all this texting at night while you asleep kind of reminds me of my situation with my ex, but you know your wife better.

if i were you, i'd wait and act dumb (if indeed there's something going on and she thinks you don't suspect anything she will eventually get sloppy), don't forget that there's other forms of texting besides the regular phone messages app, and it doesn't log the text on the bill, apps like whatsapp or fb messenger or even viber, if i were you, get a hold of a keylogger and install it while you can, this way you can be sure of whats coming, never act too smart cus that will raise suspicion and they will cover up IF anything is happening, at least that's what i would do.

Element of surprise


----------



## TAMAT

Jntrs,

When I read the "he loves his wife too much" it was a huge red flag.

There are so many practiced OM types who have a bag of stock lines they use and this is one I've heard often. It's the positive counterpart to making their wives out to be evil, and it's often accompanied by lines about how much they do for charity, helping the old lady next door, flowers he gave to his wife everyday, etc. Although it's equally dishonest and a form of self flattery. 

It's also sometimes combined with light disparagement of their wives to form the impression that they aren't appreciated by them.

Sadly the spell this Dr has cast might not be dissipated until his W sees the Dr interested in another nurse. My Ws eyes really perked up when she saw Dr. OM-2 with the married woman across the street.

Tamat.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

There is something going on and it is not likely good. I hope he can use his advice eyes open stfu


----------



## destroyd

I agree it likely not good news- hoping for the best. I myself did not lay my whole story out here on the forum because my WW began becoming very interested in what I was doing on the computer- and she is a professional in a related field. There is literally no chance she wouldnt have been following the thread and a step ahead of me. My attorney also advised me to not put anything on the public web concerning the situation. Maybe OP will update us.


----------



## just got it 55

Last Activity: 09-05-2016 02:07 PM

Not liking this

55


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Me neither. The fact it it is a hospital setting, and texting doc after hours.....this could be my nephews story with Dr Richard Cranium. Same circumstances as MWP's. Nephew dumped her like a rock.


----------



## Archangel2

Maybe, just maybe, there is nothing to report. His wife is no dummy. She could have told the good doctor to cool it for now. MWP may be engaged in a waiting game, could be 30-60 days or more until she feels it's safe to come out of hiding. He may need to keep his academy award performance going for some time.


----------



## TaDor

Nope... too much was going on before hand, when the idea of it was still quite new. 

So many cheaters... so many stories the same. There is a great deal of anonymity here. Unless you add your real name and FB page, etc.


----------



## TX-SC

Still not convinced she actually cheated.


----------



## destroyd

Anyone even remotely involved in affairs to any extent are aware of vars these days. They still catch cheaters everyday but coworkers just make their plans face to face at work, or actively engage in the affair at work behind locked doors- which hospitals are full of. 

Once you tip your hand that you are suspicious, the game goes far underground.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

destroyd said:


> Anyone even remotely involved in affairs to any extent are aware of vars these days. They still catch cheaters everyday but coworkers just make their plans face to face at work, or actively engage in the affair at work behind locked doors- which hospitals are full of.
> 
> Once you tip your hand that you are suspicious, the game goes far underground.


Yep. Several of us tried to,give him advice. OH well. Most likely she and Doc are being more cautious.


----------



## Archangel2

@MWP - Hope you are doing well


----------



## delta88

TAMAT said:


> Jntrs,
> 
> When I read the "he loves his wife too much" it was a huge red flag.
> 
> There are so many practiced OM types who have a bag of stock lines they use and this is one I've heard often. It's the positive counterpart to making their wives out to be evil, and it's often accompanied by lines about how much they do for charity, helping the old lady next door, flowers he gave to his wife everyday, etc. Although it's equally dishonest and a form of self flattery.
> 
> It's also sometimes combined with light disparagement of their wives to form the impression that they aren't appreciated by them.
> 
> Sadly the spell this Dr has cast might not be dissipated until his W sees the Dr interested in another nurse. My Ws eyes really perked up when she saw Dr. OM-2 with the married woman across the street.
> 
> Tamat.


This is what happened to me I'm pretty sure. They're out looking for lines of crap and there are an army of dirt bags ready to sling it. After getting passed around I'm sure she'll figure it out, if not you can't punish the stupid as they are already being punished by God. 

Best of luck to you and be careful the questions to which you desire answers. Mine was all about the infidelity but as you walk down this road other elements of the relationship that you've grown accustomed too will be just as bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

delta88 said:


> This is what happened to me I'm pretty sure. They're out looking for lines of crap and there are an army of dirt bags ready to sling it. After getting passed around I'm sure she'll figure it out, if not *you can't punish the stupid as they are already being punished by God. *
> 
> Best of luck to you and be careful the questions to which you desire answers. Mine was all about the infidelity but as you walk down this road other elements of the relationship that you've grown accustomed too will be just as bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea, verily.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

delta88 said:


> you can't punish the stupid as they are already being punished by God.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This is awesome and T-shirt worthy.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

MWP,

Hope all is well.


----------



## MWP

Hello all,

There will be an update posted shortly. Sorry I seemed to drop off the face of the earth, but I had to work on things.

Stay tuned, I will post it soon.


----------



## MWP

Hello all,

I know you’ve been waiting for an update since it’s been a while. I appreciate you all keeping tabs, and I’ve had to take time to handle things on my own.

As of now, almost all non-work related contact has ceased. A big reason for that was probably the fact that I confronted her about it. Before, there were texts shared on days off checking in on each other. It was a lot of “what are you doing?”, “what are you up to this weekend?”, etc etc. This bothered me, obviously. Especially since she has told me in the past that she believes men and women are incapable of being “just friends”. 

During that time, I confirmed there were deleted texts. I was able to look at the phone and compared it to the cell bill, and there would be conversations deleted. The texts that remained were innocent, but chatty. Although I should have kept my mouth shut, I confronted her about deleting texts. Her answer was that she wanted to avoid an argument. I realize I should have kept it on the downlow, but it was really bothering me.

So, here is the update.

Basically, the non-work texts have completely ceased. It’s almost eerie, and there are multiple scenarios playing in my head:





She realized it was affecting our marriage, and asked him to stop texting on their days off (he would almost always initialize the conversation).


His wife found about all of the texting and got angry at him. I did see a text where he wrote, “I’m going through some things”. And that it’s “messy and frustrating”. There was some sort of marital trouble on that end, and maybe his wife started poking around too.


Something really was happening and they broke it off, or they finally figured out how inappropriate their friendship was.


The conversation has moved onto another messaging platform. She has an iPhone, and he’s on Android which means the texts show up on the bill. It could have moved to WhatsApp or some other platform.

No matter what the real reason is, it’s apparent a conversation about it was made. It’s very odd that off-day and weekend texts just completely stopped. Now, there are only a sprinkle of messages during working hours. 

I have noticed a slight increase in affection lately, but intimacy wasn’t an issue before. She just seems more happy. I’ve also noticed he doesn’t come up in conversation anymore. Before, there would be little comments about conversations they’ve had that would come up out of the blue. I would act interested in this and listen, but really watching body language and what’s being said.

I believe if something was going on, that it was emotional in nature. She never had inexplicably late meetings, missing time, etc. But, they did keep tabs on each other and knew a lot about the other. Regardless, I’m sure there is still so much I don’t know.

I sort of think things went sour with them somehow. At work, several coworkers would pool money together and someone would go get lunch. Last week, she made a comment that he and another male doctor went to get lunch without her. 


That’s a basic rundown of where things stand right now. There are many unknowns, but things got better. I no longer have the feeling of someone else imposing themselves into our marriage. 

If any of you had this kind of experience, please share.

Thanks for reading!


----------



## manwithnoname

MWP said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I know you’ve been waiting for an update since it’s been a while. I appreciate you all keeping tabs, and I’ve had to take time to handle things on my own.
> 
> As of now, almost all non-work related contact has ceased. A big reason for that was probably the fact that I confronted her about it. Before, there were texts shared on days off checking in on each other. It was a lot of “what are you doing?”, “what are you up to this weekend?”, etc etc. This bothered me, obviously. Especially since she has told me in the past that she believes men and women are incapable of being “just friends”.
> 
> During that time, I confirmed there were deleted texts. I was able to look at the phone and compared it to the cell bill, and there would be conversations deleted. The texts that remained were innocent, but chatty. Although I should have kept my mouth shut, I confronted her about deleting texts. Her answer was that she wanted to avoid an argument. I realize I should have kept it on the downlow, but it was really bothering me.
> 
> So, here is the update.
> 
> Basically, the non-work texts have completely ceased. It’s almost eerie, and there are multiple scenarios playing in my head:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She realized it was affecting our marriage, and asked him to stop texting on their days off (he would almost always initialize the conversation).
> 
> 
> His wife found about all of the texting and got angry at him. I did see a text where he wrote, “I’m going through some things”. And that it’s “messy and frustrating”. There was some sort of marital trouble on that end, and maybe his wife started poking around too.
> 
> 
> Something really was happening and they broke it off, or they finally figured out how inappropriate their friendship was.
> 
> 
> The conversation has moved onto another messaging platform. She has an iPhone, and he’s on Android which means the texts show up on the bill. It could have moved to WhatsApp or some other platform.
> 
> No matter what the real reason is, it’s apparent a conversation about it was made. It’s very odd that off-day and weekend texts just completely stopped. Now, there are only a sprinkle of messages during working hours.
> 
> I have noticed a slight increase in affection lately, but intimacy wasn’t an issue before. She just seems more happy. I’ve also noticed he doesn’t come up in conversation anymore. Before, there would be little comments about conversations they’ve had that would come up out of the blue. I would act interested in this and listen, but really watching body language and what’s being said.
> 
> I believe if something was going on, that it was emotional in nature. She never had inexplicably late meetings, missing time, etc. But, they did keep tabs on each other and knew a lot about the other. Regardless, I’m sure there is still so much I don’t know.
> 
> I sort of think things went sour with them somehow. At work, several coworkers would pool money together and someone would go get lunch. Last week, she made a comment that he and another male doctor went to get lunch without her.
> 
> 
> That’s a basic rundown of where things stand right now. There are many unknowns, but things got better. I no longer have the feeling of someone else imposing themselves into our marriage.
> 
> If any of you had this kind of experience, please share.
> 
> Thanks for reading!


It looks like she either broke up with her boyfriend, or it has gone deep underground.

Slim chance it wasn't physical. It might still be.


----------



## Malaise

MWP said:


> During that time, I confirmed there were deleted texts. I was able to look at the phone and compared it to the cell bill, and there would be conversations deleted. The texts that remained were innocent, but chatty. Although I should have kept my mouth shut, I confronted her about deleting texts. *Her answer was that she wanted to avoid an argument. *I realize I should have kept it on the downlow, but it was really bothering me.
> 
> What about the texts would have caused an argument? Did you ask?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe if something was going on, that it was emotional in nature. *She never had inexplicably late meetings, missing time, etc.* But, they did keep tabs on each other and knew a lot about the other. Regardless, I’m sure there is still so much I don’t know.
> 
> That doesn't matter if they were 'seeing each other' at work.
> 
> That’s a basic rundown of where things stand right now. There are many unknowns, but things got better. I no longer have the feeling of someone else imposing themselves into our marriage.
> 
> I hope you remain vigilant.
> 
> If any of you had this kind of experience, please share.
> 
> Thanks for reading!


----------



## Marc878

If it were me I’d do a deleted text recovery on her phone, Fonelab, Dr Fone, etc.

If you sync the phone to a pc you can pull it off there. You’ll need her password, etc


----------



## Lostinthought61

would she be willing to take a polygraph if you asked her? are you willing to talk to the co-workers wife to match information?


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Your post still leaves more questions than answers. First she is still in close proximity to him daily. Secondly, why would she mention he went to lunch without her? I find that strange she would make such a comment to you. 
@Mark878 is spot on. You are still in what I refer to as "iceberg status", meaning as only 10% of an iceberg is above the surface and 90% below. You know only 10% of what happened if that. Definitely recover those deleted texts, as likely you will find a substantial amount of information she omitted to tell you about. There is a reason she deleted it, she did not want you to see what they were texting about. Being burned as I was several years ago makes me highly skeptical. 

You still in my opinion need much more information before even mentioning a polygraph. I would place a VAR in her car. If you know when she go s to lunch, if your schedule allows, start showing up periodically to have lunch with her. Watch closely the looks on her co-workers. If some thing is going on they know.

You are still not out of the woods by any means. I feel you have been trickle truthed in a big way.


----------



## just got it 55

Not a PA??

Okay Sure

{Imput Sarcasm Emogi}

55


----------



## OutofRetirement

I have read about a lot of affairs with an arch very similar to your wife and the doctor. But not for a year and a half after the betrayed found out and actively investigated.

I also have read about a lot of friendships that are very similar to your wife and the doctor. I believe if the friend was a female friend, a sibling, etc., there is little to be suspicious of.

Many of the red flags, I do not find particularly unusual. For example, her apparent new interest as a "foodie" as opposed to someone who in the past was not, though as you said, everyone likes food - if you have a new friend, or an old friend has a new interest, sometimes you show some interest in it, too.

As far as her having told you that men and women can't be just friends, I am unsure of the significance of that. I do believe, given your occupation, that she may have knowledge, some friends, current or past, female coworkers, female acquaintances, that there is a subgroup of women who are attracted to men in your occupation. I do find it possible that she meant that YOU cannot be friends with people of the opposite sex, but SHE thinks she completely has it all under control if SHE were to have an opposite-sex friend.

By the same token, if she has been married to you for 20 years, and has never had a male friend before, given her occupation she has worked with males this whole time, not once even came close, then I would find that unusual. I understand based on that alone your concern.

Further, given your posts, I find you seem to have a good grasp on what happens and what that means. I put a lot of emphasis on the GUT feeling you had that something was off, enough that you posted here. We all are allowed to set our own boundaries within our marriage, and the fact that your wife agreed to the boundaries, means at least you are on the same page with where those boundaries stand.

Maybe the most concerning thing is that your wife had a conversation about the texting with the other man and she did not tell you about it. I think it almost a certainty that the texts didn't stop cold without a direct conversation. Of course there is no way you can find out if they go underground and they are skillful at it. Having read a lot of these situations, however, I don't believe that they could do that for almost 18 months while you were actively keeping an eye and ear out.

The second most concerning, or maybe the first, is that your wife spoke repeatedly indirectly about not wanting the other man's wife to know. She said she wanted that when you were all four together, she didn't want it to be uncomfortable. I take that to mean that she didn't want you to talk about the fact that your wife and the other man text each other outside of work. I believe if your wife and other man are friends and text each other outside of work, truly just friends, as she said, then that should not be an issue talking about it openly. For example, when you all four are together, for you to say out loud, "my wife told me you texted her the other night about this menu, I was there and didn't like it much" or something to that effect. If I am out with my friends or siblings, if one texted me a couple days before about, for example, a basketball game, I would not think twice about saying that out loud in front of all other present. To the extent that your wife did not ever mention that when the four of you were together, shows to me that something was off.


----------



## Chaparral

One of the reasons there are so many instances of infidelity in hospitals is the availability of places to carry on. I once asked a nurse if it was as bad as it is portrayed on the tv shows and she laughed hard and said it was much worse than that......... particularly on the night shift.

It’s hard to say what is going on but I have no doubt there was a full blown EA. The PA? The best judge of that is her actions around you. Increases or decreases in your sex life and how she treats you are the two big indicators. If she actually fell in love with him and it was a PA you would probably been cut back severely on sex. If it were kicks and giggles sex might even increase.
Did you ever investigate at home. Go through drawers, closets etc.? Look for condoms, (average cheaters like it natural though), toys, sexy underwear you haven’t seen her wear. Anything out of the ordinary like more makeup, losing weight, more attention to appearance.

A really good sign is her leaving the phone out where you could see it. However, work affairs can be near impossible to catch.


----------



## BobSimmons

Man who constantly monitors wife phone is surprised wife doesn't use phone that is constantly monitored to send chats to man she sees everyday at work.

Sigh.


----------



## Txquail

Make her find another job. Get all passwords and complete access to her phone. Tell her if she doesnt alllow this it may result in a divorce. Lying by delering txts is unexcuseable. Ask her if there was anything said she wouldnt say in front of you.


----------



## eric1

It’s Dr Fone time


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

eric1 said:


> It’s Dr Fone time


OP, what he says if you want to know. Otherwise, you are always going to be wondering and it will drive you crazy.


----------



## ButtPunch

eric1 said:


> It’s Dr Fone time


This!


----------



## Malaise

MWP said:


> I believe if something was going on, that it was emotional in nature. She never had inexplicably late meetings, missing time, etc. But, they did keep tabs on each other and knew a lot about the other.* Regardless, I’m sure there is still so much I don’t know.
> 
> *
> 
> And that's the problem. And it will bother you going forward. As long as she works with him you'll never be sure what's going on behind the many locked doors in a hospital.
> 
> That’s a basic rundown of where things stand right now. *There are many unknowns, but things got better.
> 
> *
> 
> Cynical me thinks things may have gotten better to lull you into a sense of security.
> 
> And if you, OP, think are many unknowns what do you believe we think?
> To add: you think there are unknowns. So you admit that to yourself. Good.
> 
> Now, what are you going to do to make the unknown known?
> 
> 
> Thanks for reading!


----------



## sa58

Your wife knows what she is doing is 100% wrong. I used to work in a lot of hospitals before I retired. There are several
places your wife and the OM can be alone. You have said that your wife and the OM never meet alone outside of work.
How many time did your wife text OM while you were at work? Some of the deleted texts may be your work hours.The OM 
may know when you are home and when you are working.

I think your wife has disrespected you to many times:

1. When your wife was out of town she texted the OM more than you. She suddenly became a foodie and told you
that you would not be interested. Who is more important to her? You and her marriage or her relationship with the OM?

2. When you were home and in bed your wife texted the OM for all most an hour. Why did your wife not join you in bed?
Who is more important? You and her marriage or her relationship with the OM?

3, Your wife took you to dinner and a party with the OM. Your wife told you not to make her feel uncomfortable around
him. How did you feel? How do you think the OM views you since you said nothing? How do you think your wife views 
you? Who did your wife spend more time talking with? You or the OM? What is more important? You and her marriage
or her relationship with the OM?

4. Your wife has deleted text messages and changed her story to many times. What was in those text messages?
I bet they were about your marriage and his.Your wife texted another man and will not tell you what was said.
Your wife is keeping things about her relationship with the OM hidden from you. What is more important? You and 
her marriage or her relationship with the OM.

I would suggest the following:

1. Tell your wife that she must quit her job now! She is a nurse an should have no problem finding another job. If she
refuses to do so then tell her you will file for divorce! If she still refuses to do so then you know her relationship
with the OM is more important to her than you!

2. Contact the OM wife, you know where she lives you have been there. She may know more than you do. You did
post that OM was having marriage problems. Is your wife the reason why? Take your wife out to dinner and on the way
tell her you want to stop and see the OM and his wife. See how she reacts.

3. See a divorce lawyer ASAP. Tell them what you think is going on. Found out what your divorce options are just in case
you have to divorce your wife. Be sue and get one of his business cards so you can show your wife you are serious.

4. Do not believe a word your wife says!! Cheaters will lie say or do anything to avoid being exposed and caught.
Your wife even said you were picking on her. (REALLY)

Your wife may or may not be having a PA with the OM. Your wife is enjoying the attention and maybe even 
sex. The OM will not divorce his wife since he would lose half of his income for child support, alimony, and other things.
But if your wife want to simply have some extra fun he probably would do that. I do not mean to insult you or your wife
in any way by saying this. In my previous job I attend many social functions (work related) with many doctors and 
nurses. Most of the doctors and nurses had their wives and husbands with them. Many of the doctors and nurses had
been or were involved in affairs. The husbands and wives did not know what was going on behind their backs. (If i was
cheating with him or her why would I introduce you to them) 

What you do is entirely up to you, do not be fooled by your wives sudden change in behavior. The EA/PA may have gone 
underground. They may just simply be talking face to face now. This is why I suggested that you tell your wife to 
quit her job. Your wife could be happy for any number of reasons. Her and the OM could be closer now than before.
EA may have become a PA or they may be done. Please do not wait to long because if you do and her and the OM 
get to close (or someone else) then your wife may one day soon ask you for a divorce. Then you will be shocked and 
surprised when she begins a new relationship with the OM (FWB, dating) 

How much disrespect and crap you take is up to you!! I think you have all ready put up with enough. I have been married 
30+ years. My wife and I own property, and a house together. If my wife had done half of what your wife has (texting Om
deleting texts etc) I would probably be in divorce court today!! I hope you get things worked out and have a much longer
and happier lif and marriage.


----------



## skerzoid

MWP:

1. Quit playing games. EA or PA, she is having an affair.
2. Inform his wife. Do not tell your wife you are doing this.
3. Lawyer Up. Get ready to file. If you file, you can call it off if she becomes remorseful. 
4. Right now you are being played. She doesn't think you have the balls to do it. Now why would she think that?
5. Its time for Duke Nukem not Little Lord Fauntleroy.


----------



## stillthinking

A year and a half after your first post, and you are nowhere closer to knowing what actually happened. Or is currently happening.


----------



## MWP

Hello all, thank for your all of your responses. I'll try to address a lot that has been brought up to help fill in the missing spaces. Please keep in mind that I'm not settled on this matter at all, I'm still keeping my feelers on!

@Malaise



> What about the texts would have caused an argument? Did you ask?


I think what she meant about the texts causing an argument was the fact that their texting was a sensitive topic because we’ve argued about it before. The fact that she’d still text after hours AND delete them is very concerning. She thought I was simply picking up her phone and scrolling through it, but I have been using FoneLab.


@Marc878



> If it were me I’d do a deleted text recovery on her phone, Fonelab, Dr Fone, etc.
> 
> If you sync the phone to a pc you can pull it off there. You’ll need her password, etc


That is exactly what I’ve been doing. I would get up in the middle of the night, plug her phone into the PC and do a backup. I have the pin to her phone, but not her iCloud password, so I was able to authorize the PC. 

I was able to retrieve some deleted texts, but nothing revealing or suspicious. Depending on how long the messages sit on the phone in deleted status, what is retrieved is either jumbled, complete, or completely overwritten. 

What I did find in deleted and undeleted texts was what I already knew. There are several instances where he says that he “misses” her when they’re not working together. Her response is usually generic such as “I know, I don’t like working with these people”, or “I go back to work next week”.


@Lostinthought61



> would she be willing to take a polygraph if you asked her? are you willing to talk to the co-workers wife to match information?


We haven’t discussed a polygraph. I want to have more definitive proof first. I did suggest marriage counseling, and she was open to it. However, it seems that went to the wayside because it never came up again.



@Lonely husband 42301



> Your post still leaves more questions than answers. First she is still in close proximity to him daily. Secondly, why would she mention he went to lunch without her? I find that strange she would make such a comment to you.


I brought up the subject about lunch. I will sometimes ask her about her lunch plans to see what she says, and that was her response. 



> You still in my opinion need much more information before even mentioning a polygraph. I would place a VAR in her car. If you know when she go s to lunch, if your schedule allows, start showing up periodically to have lunch with her. Watch closely the looks on her co-workers. If some thing is going on they know.


I agree, that’s why I’m not bringing up the polygraph. I have a VAR in the form of my old cell phone. It tracks GPS and automatically records when it hears something. I’ve used it in the past and haven’t come up with anything except her listening to romance audio books to and from work.

I agree, I should show up for lunch one day.



@OutofRetirement



> I also have read about a lot of friendships that are very similar to your wife and the doctor. I believe if the friend was a female friend, a sibling, etc., there is little to be suspicious of.


Exactly! I have even said that to her. When she complains that he’s the only friend she has, I remind her that HE’S A GUY. She has even said things like “I guess I need new friends”, and I agree with her saying “female friends would be great”. She has also made comments along the lines of him being “girly”, and that he’s like that with everyone. I don’t think so!




> Many of the red flags, I do not find particularly unusual. For example, her apparent new interest as a "foodie" as opposed to someone who in the past was not, though as you said, everyone likes food - if you have a new friend, or an old friend has a new interest, sometimes you show some interest in it, too.


I do find it unusual. With her female friends, she never did send food pics or share restaurant ideas. This was a seed planted and nurtured by him. Of course everyone likes food, but it was not her hobby until him.




> By the same token, if she has been married to you for 20 years, and has never had a male friend before, given her occupation she has worked with males this whole time, not once even came close, then I would find that unusual. I understand based on that alone your concern.


I agree, and she works with many females and I find it strange that she’s befriended this guy.



> Maybe the most concerning thing is that your wife had a conversation about the texting with the other man and she did not tell you about it. I think it almost a certainty that the texts didn't stop cold without a direct conversation. Of course there is no way you can find out if they go underground and they are skillful at it. Having read a lot of these situations, however, I don't believe that they could do that for almost 18 months while you were actively keeping an eye and ear out.


I also think that some kind of conversation was had about this with the texts suddenly stopping. They went nearly two weeks without ANY texts, which is very odd.



> The second most concerning, or maybe the first, is that your wife spoke repeatedly indirectly about not wanting the other man's wife to know. She said she wanted that when you were all four together, she didn't want it to be uncomfortable.


Yes, this is a strange aspect to the whole thing. Since the texting has stopped, I wonder if she found out? Normally, he would initialize the conversation. I’m wondering if she also went through their phone bill?


@Chaparral



> It’s hard to say what is going on but I have no doubt there was a full blown EA. The PA? The best judge of that is her actions around you. Increases or decreases in your sex life and how she treats you are the two big indicators. If she actually fell in love with him and it was a PA you would probably been cut back severely on sex. If it were kicks and giggles sex might even increase.
> Did you ever investigate at home. Go through drawers, closets etc.? Look for condoms, (average cheaters like it natural though), toys, sexy underwear you haven’t seen her wear. Anything out of the ordinary like more makeup, losing weight, more attention to appearance.


I would say that sex life hasn’t really changed all too much. With our busy schedules and kids, we fit it in when we can. It’s normally about twice a month, and it’s been like that for years. I haven’t noticed an increase or decrease.

Yes, I’ve dug through drawers, purse, etc. I also haven’t noticed any changes in appearance. I knew to look for these indicators, and the lack of them has confused me even more!



As I was writing this, I checked the cell phone bill again and saw 18 texts between them in a 10-minute span yesterday while they were at work. It was a sudden burst, after almost two weeks of nothing.

I don’t want you all to think I’m comfortable and consider the matter settled. It’s far from settled. I have been keeping my eyes and ears open, while listening to small hints.

Here’s a new one from the other day. OG has a friend who lives down the street from us, and you literally have to pass our house to get there. I happened to run into OG’s friend out in town, and we spoke for a bit. She has met OG’s friend in a social setting, so we all kinda know each other. 

I purposely did not immediately announce to her that I ran into OG’s friend to see if it would come in conversation from her. I wanted to see if she and OG had a conversation about it, but it never came up.

After a couple of days there wasn’t anything from her, so I brought it up. OG and his friend are import car fanatics, so they go around looking at cars on their time off or something like that. Well, she slipped this time.

She said that OG stopped by the house in his little import car one day (she didn’t say when). I did not respond, and turned on my ears. She then caught herself and said that our daughter was home at the time, and also that she (speaking about herself) happened to be outside as he drove by. She was saying it to justify the visit as appropriate: our daughter was home, and it was just happenstance they ran into each other at our house.

I have a Ring doorbell in the front of the house that picks up motion and records video. There were no such visits caught on that camera. However, the side of the house is directly next to the street, and you can drive over a small patch of grass to get onto our side driveway, out of the view of the Ring doorbell. Since learning this information, I put up a spare trail camera to cover that side of the house and I will continue to check the video.

I’m VERY upset that she slipped up and said he had been at our house when I wasn’t home. Even if our daughter was home, she never comes out of her room!

Here’s my question on this: Do I keep quiet on this and gather more evidence? Or, do I attack it full on and let her know that I’m pissed? I have to admit, it’s very difficult to keep it in and I’m not that good at hiding what I’m feeling.


----------



## Andy1001

MWP said:


> Hello all, thank for your all of your responses. I'll try to address a lot that has been brought up to help fill in the missing spaces. Please keep in mind that I'm not settled on this matter at all, I'm still keeping my feelers on!
> 
> @Malaise
> 
> 
> 
> I think what she meant about the texts causing an argument was the fact that their texting was a sensitive topic because we’ve argued about it before. The fact that she’d still text after hours AND delete them is very concerning. She thought I was simply picking up her phone and scrolling through it, but I have been using FoneLab.
> 
> 
> @Marc878
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what I’ve been doing. I would get up in the middle of the night, plug her phone into the PC and do a backup. I have the pin to her phone, but not her iCloud password, so I was able to authorize the PC.
> 
> I was able to retrieve some deleted texts, but nothing revealing or suspicious. Depending on how long the messages sit on the phone in deleted status, what is retrieved is either jumbled, complete, or completely overwritten.
> 
> What I did find in deleted and undeleted texts was what I already knew. There are several instances where he says that he “misses” her when they’re not working together. Her response is usually generic such as “I know, I don’t like working with these people”, or “I go back to work next week”.
> 
> 
> @Lostinthought61
> 
> 
> 
> We haven’t discussed a polygraph. I want to have more definitive proof first. I did suggest marriage counseling, and she was open to it. However, it seems that went to the wayside because it never came up again.
> 
> 
> 
> @Lonely husband 42301
> 
> 
> 
> I brought up the subject about lunch. I will sometimes ask her about her lunch plans to see what she says, and that was her response.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, that’s why I’m not bringing up the polygraph. I have a VAR in the form of my old cell phone. It tracks GPS and automatically records when it hears something. I’ve used it in the past and haven’t come up with anything except her listening to romance audio books to and from work.
> 
> I agree, I should show up for lunch one day.
> 
> 
> 
> @OutofRetirement
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly! I have even said that to her. When she complains that he’s the only friend she has, I remind her that HE’S A GUY. She has even said things like “I guess I need new friends”, and I agree with her saying “female friends would be great”. She has also made comments along the lines of him being “girly”, and that he’s like that with everyone. I don’t think so!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do find it unusual. With her female friends, she never did send food pics or share restaurant ideas. This was a seed planted and nurtured by him. Of course everyone likes food, but it was not her hobby until him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, and she works with many females and I find it strange that she’s befriended this guy.
> 
> 
> 
> I also think that some kind of conversation was had about this with the texts suddenly stopping. They went nearly two weeks without ANY texts, which is very odd.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this is a strange aspect to the whole thing. Since the texting has stopped, I wonder if she found out? Normally, he would initialize the conversation. I’m wondering if she also went through their phone bill?
> 
> 
> @Chaparral
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that sex life hasn’t really changed all too much. With our busy schedules and kids, we fit it in when we can. It’s normally about twice a month, and it’s been like that for years. I haven’t noticed an increase or decrease.
> 
> Yes, I’ve dug through drawers, purse, etc. I also haven’t noticed any changes in appearance. I knew to look for these indicators, and the lack of them has confused me even more!
> 
> 
> 
> As I was writing this, I checked the cell phone bill again and saw 18 texts between them in a 10-minute span yesterday while they were at work. It was a sudden burst, after almost two weeks of nothing.
> 
> I don’t want you all to think I’m comfortable and consider the matter settled. It’s far from settled. I have been keeping my eyes and ears open, while listening to small hints.
> 
> Here’s a new one from the other day. OG has a friend who lives down the street from us, and you literally have to pass our house to get there. I happened to run into OG’s friend out in town, and we spoke for a bit. She has met OG’s friend in a social setting, so we all kinda know each other.
> 
> I purposely did not immediately announce to her that I ran into OG’s friend to see if it would come in conversation from her. I wanted to see if she and OG had a conversation about it, but it never came up.
> 
> After a couple of days there wasn’t anything from her, so I brought it up. OG and his friend are import car fanatics, so they go around looking at cars on their time off or something like that. Well, she slipped this time.
> 
> She said that OG stopped by the house in his little import car one day (she didn’t say when). I did not respond, and turned on my ears. She then caught herself and said that our daughter was home at the time, and also that she (speaking about herself) happened to be outside as he drove by. She was saying it to justify the visit as appropriate: our daughter was home, and it was just happenstance they ran into each other at our house.
> 
> I have a Ring doorbell in the front of the house that picks up motion and records video. There were no such visits caught on that camera. However, the side of the house is directly next to the street, and you can drive over a small patch of grass to get onto our side driveway, out of the view of the Ring doorbell. Since learning this information, I put up a spare trail camera to cover that side of the house and I will continue to check the video.
> 
> I’m VERY upset that she slipped up and said he had been at our house when I wasn’t home. Even if our daughter was home, she never comes out of her room!
> 
> Here’s my question on this: Do I keep quiet on this and gather more evidence? Or, do I attack it full on and let her know that I’m pissed? I have to admit, it’s very difficult to keep it in and I’m not that good at hiding what I’m feeling.


When you finally get tired of being cheated on,walked over and belittled by your wife and her “friend” you will do something.
Until then you will do exactly what you have been doing.
Nothing.


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## Tobyboy

One of things that my wife started doing during EA was to call me, out of the blue, on my days off and ask what “I was up to”. Didn’t think much of it at the time. Thought she was just missing me. Well, I started noticing that as soon as I started telling her about my day, she would all of sudden get busy and say she needed to hang up. Oh. Ok, no problem. 
Come to find out that the calls to me were to verify my location, so not to be near her workplace(which I would occasionally stop by and visit) where she conducted her EA. And yes, this was at a hospital also.


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## ButtPunch

I think you still need to play dumb


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## MWP

Tobyboy said:


> One of things that my wife started doing during EA was to call me, out of the blue, on my days off and ask what “I was up to”. Didn’t think much of it at the time. Thought she was just missing me. Well, I started noticing that as soon as I started telling her about my day, she would all of sudden get busy and say she needed to hang up. Oh. Ok, no problem.
> Come to find out that the calls to me were to verify my location, so not to be near her workplace(which I would occasionally stop by and visit) where she conducted her EA. And yes, this was at a hospital also.


How did things work out?


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## Tobyboy

MWP said:


> How did things work out?


This was back in the 90’s. I busted her with a var. Back then we didn’t have cell phones, so I tapped our landline with a cheap(but awesome) phone recorder from radio shack. Daily recordings for six months and not a damn thing. Had me second guessing my “gut feeling”. She was told, by her boss, that she needed to take her PTO or lose it. Three days into her vacation, she made a call to her “friend” and she was busted. She quit her job on dday. Poly later confirmed no PA. We’re still together.


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## phillybeffandswiss

You are liking his posts, you did notice he did something and his wife quit right?


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## Malaise

MWP said:


> I think what she meant about the texts causing an argument was the fact that their texting was a sensitive topic because we’ve argued about it before. The fact that she’d still text after hours AND delete them is very concerning. She thought I was simply picking up her phone and scrolling through it, but I have been using FoneLab.
> 
> *She knows you don't like it but does it anyway. And deletes to cover her butt.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, that’s why I’m not bringing up the polygraph. I have a VAR in the form of my old cell phone. It tracks GPS and automatically records when it hears something. I’ve used it in the past and haven’t come up with anything except her listening to romance audio books to and from work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly! I have even said that to her. When she complains that he’s the only friend she has, I remind her that HE’S A GUY. She has even said things like “I guess I need new friends”, and I agree with her saying “female friends would be great”. *She has also made comments along the lines of him being “girly”, and that he’s like that with everyone. I don’t think so!
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, and she works with many females and I find it strange that she’s befriended this guy.
> 
> *I don't*
> 
> I also think that some kind of conversation was had about this with the texts suddenly stopping. They went nearly two weeks without ANY texts, which is very odd.
> 
> *They work together, still.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I was writing this, I checked the cell phone bill again and saw 18 texts between them in a 10-minute span yesterday while they were at work. It was a sudden burst, after almost two weeks of nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> After a couple of days there wasn’t anything from her, so I brought it up. OG and his friend are import car fanatics, so they go around looking at cars on their time off or something like that. Well, she slipped this time.
> 
> She said that OG stopped by the house in his little import car one day (she didn’t say when). I did not respond, and turned on my ears. She then caught herself and said that our daughter was home at the time, and also that she (speaking about herself) happened to be outside as he drove by. She was saying it to justify the visit as appropriate: our daughter was home, and it was just happenstance they ran into each other at our house.
> 
> I have a Ring doorbell in the front of the house that picks up motion and records video. There were no such visits caught on that camera. However, the side of the house is directly next to the street, and you can drive over a small patch of grass to get onto our side driveway, out of the view of the Ring doorbell. Since learning this information, I put up a spare trail camera to cover that side of the house and I will continue to check the video.
> 
> *Does she know the area the doorbell cam covers?*
> 
> I’m VERY upset that she slipped up and said he had been at our house when I wasn’t home. Even if our daughter was home, she never comes out of her room!
> 
> *Makes you wonder how many times he was there, without your daughter there.
> *
> Here’s my question on this: Do I keep quiet on this and gather more evidence? Or, do I attack it full on and let her know that I’m pissed? I have to admit, it’s very difficult to keep it in and I’m not that good at hiding what I’m feeling.


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## Malaise

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You are liking his posts, you did notice he did something and his wife quit right?


Strange how that works


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## Chaparral

Were you able to read the 18 texts?
Since you have access to her phone can’t you have the texts sent to another iPod or iPhone?

I would give it more time but not a lot.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Something is definitely amiss. He stops by your house? This is pretty bold. You are getting the mushroom treatment”feed them **** and keep them in the dark”.

Come on Marine! Trust your gut. You need to go into detective mode and gather more intel. You know....but you don’t know. 

Keep digging


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## sa58

How much longer are you going to continue
with collecting evidence. This man has been to
your house! In one of my other posts I stated
that your wife was probably texting your work 
hours to OM. You need to tell your wife (TODAY)
that enough is enough. This is just total disrespect
for you and your marriage. Tell her to quit and get
another job or you will file for divorce. The OM 
has probably been to your house a lot of times 
even around your kids. Maybe even in your bed!!
Talk to the OM wife because you posted earlier 
that they may be having marriage problems. 
Your wife could be the cause of it. There is more going on
than you know. How much disrespect/humiliation
are you going to stand for. Tell her to quit her job
get her away from Om and then you will see what she 
values the most. You or her relationship with the OM,
Your wife may be living in a fantasy about becoming his
next wife. He stands to loose a lot if he divorces his
wife and three kids, but if she is willing (SEEMS LIKE SHE IS)
to play around then he will. Again talk to OM wife, tell your wife enough
of the double standard and fantasy or whatever it is and stop this NOW!!
Your wife is getting closer and closer to OM.Maybe it is all ready a PA.
If so then maybe even around your kids. IN YOUR HOUSE IN YOUR BED.
I would not take this disrespect anymore. The deleted texts are about you and her
your marriage, his marriage. She is hiding a lot from you. Are you going to wait
until it is to late and she says I WANT A DIVORCE or are you going to take action.
I think you posted a question for the ladies and they all said then same thing.
He is trying to get something from your wife, IT IS NOT JUST FRIENDSHIP!!
MAYBE HE HAS ALL ALL READY GOTTEN IT! DO SOMETHING NOW!
What have you got to loose? YOU WIFE AND SELF RESPECT?
You may have all ready lost them both.


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## ABHale

This has been going on for 1 1/2 years now. 

What are you waiting for? 

Wow, you know your wife is lying to you and hiding things. I think this amount of time you would have decided what to do. 

Do something, file for divorce or get over it already.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

ABHale said:


> This has been going on for 1 1/2 years now.
> 
> What are you waiting for?
> 
> Wow, you know your wife is lying to you and hiding things. I think this amount of time you would have decided what to do.
> 
> Do something, file for divorce or get over it already.


What he said X 100. Do I need to give you the "yellow footprint" speech I have given a few people who went through LH boot camp? You have been given good advice. I was unaware of how long this has been going on. Ultimatum time. "Wife, it appears there are three people in this marriage when there is only room for two. Y What is it going to be?" 

This is how after rethinking your position I see it. You have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it.

It is time for you to **** or get off the pot. I have a hard time with a Marine who will not step up and be assertive. You can do it. Rip the band aid off and tell her what is going on is UNACCEPTABLE. I repeat UNACCEPTABLE.

Step up and be firm and inflexible with her.


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## RandomDude

MWP said:


> I’m VERY upset that she slipped up and said he had been at our house when I wasn’t home. Even if our daughter was home, she never comes out of her room!
> 
> Here’s my question on this: Do I keep quiet on this and gather more evidence? Or, do I attack it full on and let her know that I’m pissed? I have to admit, it’s very difficult to keep it in and I’m not that good at hiding what I’m feeling.


Regardless of whether or not it even is an affair, your wife is not respecting your wishes because you are not enforcing boundaries.

I recently witnessed a married man shown utterly no respect by his wife and based on what she had mentioned to me earlier when it comes to the dynamics of their relationship SHE makes the rules and he can either suffer or divorce. She doesn't care. Now she might learn to care, if her husband put his foot down, but she knows he won't. 

I see the same situation here I'm afraid.


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## TRy

MWP said:


> I purposely did not immediately announce to her that I ran into OG’s friend to see if it would come in conversation from her. I wanted to see if she and OG had a conversation about it, but it never came up.
> 
> After a couple of days there wasn’t anything from her, so I brought it up. OG and his friend are import car fanatics, so they go around looking at cars on their time off or something like that. Well, she slipped this time.
> 
> She said that OG stopped by the house in his little import car one day (she didn’t say when). I did not respond, and turned on my ears. She then caught herself and said that our daughter was home at the time, and also that she (speaking about herself) happened to be outside as he drove by. She was saying it to justify the visit as appropriate: our daughter was home, and it was just happenstance they ran into each other at our house.


 It was not your wife slipping up. It was your wife covering her rear. Your wife did not mention it until you told her that you spoke to OG friend, and she thought at that point that you may have already known. The real issue here is that in light of your 1 1/2 year issues with her and the other man, if it was just happenstance why did she not tell you immediately, instead of waiting until she feared that you might already know. This was a lie by omission, where she only tells about her relationship with the other man when she feels that she has to. That is now the established status quo in your relationship with your wife and the other man.



MWP said:


> Here’s my question on this: Do I keep quiet on this and gather more evidence? Or, do I attack it full on and let her know that I’m pissed? I have to admit, it’s very difficult to keep it in and I’m not that good at hiding what I’m feeling.


 You have been getting "pissed" for a long time now, and your wife now knows that all she has to do is ride it out until the next time, because she knows that you being pissed means no real action by you. After all, when it is between you getting pissed, and giving up someone that she refers to as her "only real friend", the other man wins every time. She and the other man no longer take you seriously. You getting pissed is now nothing more than an annoyance.


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## RandomDude

TRy said:


> The real issue here is that in light of your *1 1/2 year issues* with her and the other man...


:surprise:


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## stillthinking

This sums up the last 18 months perfectly.....



> You have been getting "pissed" for a long time now, and your wife now knows that all she has to do is ride it out until the next time, because she knows that you being pissed means no real action by you. After all, when it is between you getting pissed, and giving up someone that she refers to as her "only real friend", the other man wins every time. She and the other man no longer take you seriously. You getting pissed is now nothing more than an annoyance.


Personally I think if you were going do something concrete, you would have, long before now. So far nothing has changed since 2016. Just busy work and pouting. 

So maybe it’s time you just accept her other relationship and make peace with it.

I would love to be wrong though.


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## turnera

MWP said:


> I agree, I should show up for lunch one day.


DID you? It's been several weeks now.



> Exactly! I have even said that to her. When she complains that he’s the only friend she has, I remind her that HE’S A GUY. She has even said things like “I guess I need new friends”, and I agree with her saying “female friends would be great”.


Here is where you REALLY screwed up. A beta male (weakling to a woman) would say 'that would be great.' 

An alpha male (someone she respects and wants to be with) would say 'I can't choose your friends for you. But I CAN tell you I won't stay married to a woman who thinks it's ok to be married to a man AND have ANOTHER man as her best friend. Do what you want, but realize I'm not going to accept it much longer, and you'll have to find another husband.'

Did you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet?


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## skerzoid

I think Elvis has left the building.


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## thummper

Too bad. It would have been nice to know how his situation turned out. Another poster disappears into the mist.


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## Dyokemm

thummper said:


> Too bad. It would have been nice to know how his situation turned out. Another poster disappears into the mist.


Yes....

But I think this most commonly happens when a poster has essentially blown off most of the advice given to them by others (especially the veterans) here.....and the situation has blown up in their face the way they have been warned/told.

Most are then too embarrassed to come back and continue posting.....in particular if they have been argumentative, in denial, or resistant to what they have been advised.

Every once in awhile, you get one who will return to post something like, ‘You all were right, I wish I had listened.’

But most of them just fade away and never come back....

It’s funny (not really), but when you have read threads here for a long time, you can almost predict which argumentative/resistant posters are going be the ones to go ‘ghost’ on their own thread because they do not like what they are hearing, or are just simply refusing to put ANY of the suggestions of other posters into action.....

They just fade out....and, like I said, rarely return.


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## Robert22205

He was in a very difficult situation. I hope he returns and shares so others can benefit. No judgement just support.


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## skerzoid

Robert22205 said:


> He was in a very difficult situation. I hope he returns and shares so others can benefit. No judgement just support.


Another zombi thread. Lock it up.


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## Rubix Cubed

skerzoid said:


> Another zombi thread. Lock it up.


 He updated over 18 months w/ long spans of no posts. I wouldn't exactly call that a zombie thread. Locking it would prevent him from any more updates.


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## IanMcEwan

Thanks for sharing. 

I hope you two are doing well. 

But for those who are in the same situation, I think the first thing you should do is to communicate with your spouse first, rather than keep checking her phone and ruin her feeling for you.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

MWP, how is it going?


----------

