# Just Curious...



## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

Women, have you or any other woman you know ever cheated on a husband that you/she truly loved, was happy with, and knew you/she wanted to spend forever with? I'm wondering how common it might be for women to stray for purely sexual reasons, with no inner turmoil regarding the marriage going on at all.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Bruticus said:


> Women, have you or any other woman you know ever cheated on a husband that you/she truly loved, was happy with, and knew you/she wanted to spend forever with? I'm wondering how common it might be for women to stray for purely sexual reasons, with no inner turmoil regarding the marriage going on at all.


My wife did precisely this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

Bruticus, I know this probably isn't the answer you're looking for, But my H couldn't have sex for 4 years & wouldn't go to the Dr. because of his pride. I never even thought about cheating on him. That's what truly Loving someone is to me. Needles to say the reason I'm here on TAM is because when he did go to the Dr. He cheated on me. I guess what I'm trying to say is marriage don't mean as much to some people as others. You either have it in you to cheat or you don't


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Bruticus said:


> Women, have you or any other woman you know ever cheated on a husband that you/she truly loved, was happy with, and knew you/she wanted to spend forever with? I'm wondering how common it might be for women to stray for purely sexual reasons, with no inner turmoil regarding the marriage going on at all.


I had a 3-month affair because he was an abusive, cheating jackass. So, no, it was not sexual, it was entirely emotional. The sex was pretty good though. But what he did give me was someone to actually listen, and pull me out of the very severe depression I was in. Years of feeling like I would never matter to a man, except as something to use, had taken a huge toll on me.

I would never cheat for sexual reasons only, because I would not continue a relationship that didn't have good sex. I need good sex. I need a lot of it. I'm willing to work to make that happen. Dh was very inexperienced when I met him, and it took a couple of years to teach him what I like, and why I like it, and same for him. There were many ugly fights over sex. We both have kinks and desires that are far from mainstream, and we had to repress those until we met each other. We both know the dangers of letting your sex life get stale. Resentment builds, boredom sets in, and then you realize it's been a month since either of you bothered to initiate sex. We aren't going to let that happen if we can prevent it.

Dh knows that if he doesn't provide good sex, I will find someone who will, and it will be with his permission. I know he expects the same from me. This is something we have talked at length about. Neither of us would give up a marriage for sex or kink, so in our "big picture," finding someone to indulge a fetish or just get laid when he or I is unable to be that person at that time, makes the most sense for us. We fully realize we are not like most people in that regard, and I would never recommend that to anyone else. I've seen it tear other couples apart who thought they could handle it.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> My wife did precisely this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


harsh, bro. are you still together? how did you find out? what was her explanation?


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

Devastated an lost said:


> Bruticus, I know this probably isn't the answer you're looking for, But my H couldn't have sex for 4 years & wouldn't go to the Dr. because of his pride. I never even thought about cheating on him. That's what truly Loving someone is to me. Needles to say the reason I'm here on TAM is because when he did go to the Dr. He cheated on me. I guess what I'm trying to say is marriage don't mean as much to some people as others. You either have it in you to cheat or you don't


couldn't agree more with that, and sorry about what happened to you. by definition I guess, it's always the good people who get hurt the most. this question has been on my mind a while, because I thought my marriage was all roses and then boom, thought she had cheated (albeit with someone she was once with), but I have since been convince she didn't cross the line but when I feared it most, nothing had ever hurt more. if I could bottle that feeling, I'd make a fortune selling it as an appetite suppressant. lol.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

I suppose this may be more common where the wife is the caretaker of her incapacitated husband. She is willing to honor "til death do us part" but also willing to open herself physically to another man not as a way of replacing her husband but as a means of coping with the tragedy.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

vms said:


> I had a 3-month affair because he was an abusive, cheating jackass. So, no, it was not sexual, it was entirely emotional. The sex was pretty good though. But what he did give me was someone to actually listen, and pull me out of the very severe depression I was in. Years of feeling like I would never matter to a man, except as something to use, had taken a huge toll on me.
> 
> I would never cheat for sexual reasons only, because I would not continue a relationship that didn't have good sex. I need good sex. I need a lot of it. I'm willing to work to make that happen. Dh was very inexperienced when I met him, and it took a couple of years to teach him what I like, and why I like it, and same for him. There were many ugly fights over sex. We both have kinks and desires that are far from mainstream, and we had to repress those until we met each other. We both know the dangers of letting your sex life get stale. Resentment builds, boredom sets in, and then you realize it's been a month since either of you bothered to initiate sex. We aren't going to let that happen if we can prevent it.
> 
> Dh knows that if he doesn't provide good sex, I will find someone who will, and it will be with his permission. I know he expects the same from me. This is something we have talked at length about. Neither of us would give up a marriage for sex or kink, so in our "big picture," finding someone to indulge a fetish or just get laid when he or I is unable to be that person at that time, makes the most sense for us. We fully realize we are not like most people in that regard, and I would never recommend that to anyone else. I've seen it tear other couples apart who thought they could handle it.


I agree you guys had something set up that was outside the mainstream. I for one cannot tolerate the thought of my wife with another man (woman, yes), I've got dibs on handling that responsibility. if she's the kind of woman that is going to need more than one man, then she should have told me that before she said "yes!", in which case I would have revoked the invitation.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

chaos said:


> I suppose this may be more common where the wife is the caretaker of her incapacitated husband. She is willing to honor "til death do us part" but also willing to open herself physically to another man not as a way of replacing her husband but as a means of coping with the tragedy.


perhaps, although the husband not being able to perform could probably fall under the "inner turmoil" category regarding the marriage that I was talking about. does your post reference your situation at all or were you just putting it out there?


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Bruticus said:


> perhaps, although the husband not being able to perform could probably fall under the "inner turmoil" category regarding the marriage that I was talking about. does your post reference your situation at all or were you just putting it out there?


No not my situation - I'm a man - but I am acquainted with a married couple both in their late 60's who have been married more than 40 years and where the husband has been incapacitated with Alzheimer's for almost 8 years. His wife has been his caretaker for all that time and despite advice from her children, she has steadfastly refused to send him to a nursing facility for Alzheimer's patients. What few people know is that she has been having a PA with a mutual friend of theirs, a widower about the their age, for the last couple of years. We're neighbors and I found out by accident when I happened to notice this OM comings and goings to her home. I thought that he might be a brother of hers, and so I mentioned it to her. She broke down in tears and told me the whole story. As all affairs, it started with innocent talks about her husband and how she was coping with the situation. Slowly she started feeling less lonely until one day they embraced and the rest is history. And while she acknowledged that her body is no longer exclusive to her incapacitated husband, her heart is his and forever will be his.

Her situation caused me to think that perhaps a tiny group of people in her tragic situation, should not suffer under the same blanket condemnation we normally throw at unfaithful spouses.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

chaos said:


> No not my situation - I'm a man - but I am acquainted with a married couple both in their late 60's who have been married more than 40 years and where the husband has been incapacitated with Alzheimer's for almost 8 years. His wife has been his caretaker for all that time and despite advice from her children, she has steadfastly refused to send him to a nursing facility for Alzheimer's patients. What few people know is that she has been having a PA with a mutual friend of theirs, a widower about the their age, for the last couple of years. We're neighbors and I found out by accident when I happened to notice this OM comings and goings to her home. I thought that he might be a brother of hers, and so I mentioned it to her. She broke down in tears and told me the whole story. As all affairs, it started with innocent talks about her husband and how she was coping with the situation. Slowly she started feeling less lonely until one day they embraced and the rest is history. And while she acknowledged that her body is no longer exclusive to her incapacitated husband, her heart is his and forever will be his.
> 
> Her situation caused me to think that perhaps a tiny group of people in her tragic situation, should not suffer under the same blanket condemnation we normally throw at unfaithful spouses.


Wow. What I see in her situation was the OM taking absolute advantage of her situation and is pure evil. I could go on and on trashing this situation. She's been taken advantage of by someone who knew what he was doing and has zero respect for marriage. Hers or anyone else's.

*vomit*


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

chaos said:


> Her situation caused me to think that perhaps a tiny group of people in her tragic situation, should not suffer under the same blanket condemnation we normally throw at unfaithful spouses.


Would you then support and feel the same way in other similar cases, such as where the libido has been depleted due to medical reasons, such as low T or menopause or heart or other physical or mental conditions and therefor sex was no longer possible or safe? I don't as the physical giving is just as damaging and hurtful a the emotional giving.

I can see your point, but I also think that most cheaters have within their minds created equal justifications for their abhorrent behavior and sometimes say the same things and bring the same proofs. They love their BS but can't live without x so therefor have sought x outside of the marriage. Does it make it right to give one part of yourself to someone else and justify it as acceptable as you didn't give another part or the full package?

I am not saying there aren't extenuating circumstances, but IMHO it seems that there is no excuse for cheating. In your described case, does it really matter or make a difference if the debilitated spouse was in a constant care facility or being cared for by the other spouse? It seems that it wouldn't make no difference in the case of sex outside of the marriage as it has no bearing on the individual spouses conditions. I had an inlaw that cared for her invalid spouse and she never sought sexual solace outside of the marriage but I know she did emotional and everyone viewed it as cheating and bad behavior, even her (but that didn't stop her from carrying on anyway).


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Q tip said:


> Wow. I see her situation was the OM taking absolute advantage of her situation and is pure evil. I could go on and on trashing this situation. She's been taken advantage of by someone who knew what he was doing and has zero respect for marriage. Hers or anyone else's.
> 
> *vomit*


Maybe you are right but then again it could be that he was a very lonely widower who may not have started with any intentions to seduce a very lonely elderly woman. She didn't tell me who made the first move and I frankly didn't care. The reality was that her husband was no longer coming back from that degenerative and terminal neurological disease. I tend to believe that in this tragic situation, it was loneliness and not evil that was the cause of this affair.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Bruticus said:


> harsh, bro. are you still together? how did you find out? what was her explanation?


She told me in advance of her plan to have the affair. Her explanation was, in short, she wanted to.

We have now been together for nearly 26 years.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Q tip said:


> Wow. What I see in her situation was the OM taking absolute advantage of her situation and is pure evil. I could go on and on trashing this situation. She's been taken advantage of by someone who knew what he was doing and has zero respect for marriage. Hers or anyone else's.
> 
> *vomit*


They both lost their spouses. He to death, her to a horrible living death.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

chaos said:


> I tend to believe that in this tragic situation, it was loneliness and not evil that was the cause of this affair.


I still don't think that makes it right or acceptable, as plenty of WS would state the same exact reasons for their infidelity. My STBXW I can almost bet would state that she was unhappy and lonely in the marriage and felt alone, unheard, unloved, uncared for, unsupported and any other UN you can think of (and I my disability wouldn't keep me from performing), so she turned to others and it blossomed from there. She wouldn't believe that she had evil intentions to hurt me or anything else (in fact by the end she didn't care about me at all I believe) when she started cheating. I can bet most will same the same that they were seeking companionship and not trying to inflict pain and hurt, unless it is a revenge A then some may intentionally be doing it for that reason.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Would you then support and feel the same way in other similar cases, such as where the libido has been depleted due to medical reasons, such as low T or menopause or heart or other physical or mental conditions and therefor sex was no longer possible or safe? I don't as the physical giving is just as damaging and hurtful a the emotional giving.
> 
> I can see your point, but I also think that most cheaters have within their minds created equal justifications for their abhorrent behavior and sometimes say the same things and bring the same proofs. They love their BS but can't live without x so therefor have sought x outside of the marriage. Does it make it right to give one part of yourself to someone else and justify it as acceptable as you didn't give another part or the full package?
> 
> I am not saying there aren't extenuating circumstances, but IMHO it seems that there is no excuse for cheating. In your described case, does it really matter or make a difference if the debilitated spouse was in a constant care facility or being cared for by the other spouse? It seems that it wouldn't make no difference in the case of sex outside of the marriage as it has no bearing on the individual spouses conditions. I had an inlaw that cared for her invalid spouse and she never sought sexual solace outside of the marriage but I know she did emotional and everyone viewed it as cheating and bad behavior, even her (but that didn't stop her from carrying on anyway).


I can't fault your logic so I'm not going to argue with what your saying since it parallels in large part my own beliefs on the matter of infidelity. But I will give you my opinion/observation, especially in the case of your in law who had an EA but cared for her invalid spouse. 

Affairs, like illnesses, can come in to existence from a wide variety of factors - or justifications if you prefer that term instead. Most of the times they are simply selfish, cowardly and massively destructive escapes from marital problems and to avoid that which they know is the lesser damaging of all unpalatable solutions, divorce. I think we can all agree on this.

Now as far as the situation with your female in law and her spouse and my neighbor and her spouse. These two women had husbands who were in a state of living death with no chance of coming back to them. Would anybody have admired them if they had chosen to divorce their incapacitated husbands because they did not want to be lonely anymore and they refused to "cheat" on their husbands? I certainly would not and I dare say that very few would as well. 

It's very easy for us to sit in judgement of these people, but I cannot imagine for a minute the depth of loneliness or despair that these caretaker spouses go through day in day out, year after year until their beloved passes away. So in these very special cases, I would sheath the sword of holy righteousness back in its scabbard.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> They both lost their spouses. He to death, her to a horrible living death.


IMHO, There is no excuse for infidelity. None. Rationalization hamsters keep churning evil excuses. It's life. Life is tough. Guess I am guilty of fewer shades of grey, favoring high contrast black or white on this topic.

Those are my expectations on myself. I know I cannot make others understand or force their opinions. But I must live with myself as best I can.

Who says the OMs not out here spreading STDs far and wide with many near-widows. Just a notch in his cane if you will. Perhaps a lifetime of experiences. Great for inheritance or at least getting a percentage...

Sorry, I cannot allow that even special dispensation squeaks through as the rationalization. That's me though. Others mileage may vary and that's OK.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Bruticus said:


> Women, have you or any other woman you know ever cheated on a husband that you/she truly loved, was happy with, and knew you/she wanted to spend forever with? I'm wondering how common it might be for women to stray for purely sexual reasons, with no inner turmoil regarding the marriage going on at all.


I'd be MORE worried about a perfectly happy, fully in love, commited forever spouse who cheated than one who was disgruntled in the marriage. Scary thought if you really think about it.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Q tip said:


> IMHO, There is no excuse for infidelity. None. Rationalization hamsters keep churning evil excuses. It's life. Life is tough. Guess I am guilty of fewer shades of grey, favoring high contrast black or white on this topic.
> 
> Those are my expectations on myself. I know I cannot make others understand or force their opinions. But I must live with myself as best I can.
> 
> Who says the OMs not out here spreading STDs far and wide with many near-widows. Just a notch in his cane if you will. Perhaps a lifetime of experiences. Great for inheritance or at least getting a percentage...


You are right that there are wolves in sheep's clothing out there smelling and trying to locate the blood of their prey.

Nevertheless, I hope that none of us ever find ourselves in the position of being caretakers of a living death spouse.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

chaos said:


> No not my situation - I'm a man - but I am acquainted with a married couple both in their late 60's who have been married more than 40 years and where the husband has been incapacitated with Alzheimer's for almost 8 years. His wife has been his caretaker for all that time and despite advice from her children, she has steadfastly refused to send him to a nursing facility for Alzheimer's patients. What few people know is that she has been having a PA with a mutual friend of theirs, a widower about the their age, for the last couple of years. We're neighbors and I found out by accident when I happened to notice this OM comings and goings to her home. I thought that he might be a brother of hers, and so I mentioned it to her. She broke down in tears and told me the whole story. As all affairs, it started with innocent talks about her husband and how she was coping with the situation. Slowly she started feeling less lonely until one day they embraced and the rest is history. And while she acknowledged that her body is no longer exclusive to her incapacitated husband, her heart is his and forever will be his.
> 
> Her situation caused me to think that perhaps a tiny group of people in her tragic situation, should not suffer under the same blanket condemnation we normally throw at unfaithful spouses.


perhaps. Alzheimer's is unique because the mind is not right. if it were a physical ailment instead and the husband's mind was right, perhaps it would be a more despicable act?


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> She told me in advance of her plan to have the affair. Her explanation was, in short, she wanted to.
> 
> We have now been together for nearly 26 years.


I would certainly be appreciative of her up front honesty about the whole thing. sneaking around behind my back would piss me off more than anything I can think of. still, not sure I possess what it would take to forgive and move on from that. I guess some people have it and some people don't.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

chaos said:


> You are right that there are wolves in sheep's clothing out there smelling and trying to locate the blood of their prey.
> 
> Nevertheless, I hope that none of us ever find ourselves in the position of being caretakers of a living death spouse.



So true, but those are two different topics.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

To answer the OP, it hasn't happened to me but I've seen it.

It may not be the most common reason women cheat, but I'm sure it's in the top 10.

Women and men are more alike than not alike. And guess what? They like sex as much as men do. More than some. And if the right stud came along and they thought they could get away with it...

Well, temptation is what it is.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Bruticus said:


> perhaps. Alzheimer's is unique because the mind is not right. if it were a physical ailment instead and the husband's mind was right, perhaps it would be a more despicable act?


Yes I believe it would be considering that many couples where a spouse has a physical incapacity, have manage to be sexually active and emotionally connected. No excuse here to cheat.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> She told me in advance of her plan to have the affair. Her explanation was, in short, she wanted to.
> 
> We have now been together for nearly 26 years.





Bruticus said:


> *I would certainly be appreciative of her up front honesty about the whole thing.*  sneaking around behind my back would piss me off more than anything I can think of. still, not sure I possess what it would take to forgive and move on from that. I guess some people have it and some people don't.


Yep. Wouldn't keep me from filing for divorce, though.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

chaos said:


> No not my situation - I'm a man - but I am acquainted with a married couple both in their late 60's who have been married more than 40 years and where the husband has been incapacitated with Alzheimer's for almost 8 years. His wife has been his caretaker for all that time and despite advice from her children, she has steadfastly refused to send him to a nursing facility for Alzheimer's patients. What few people know is that she has been having a PA with a mutual friend of theirs, a widower about the their age, for the last couple of years. We're neighbors and I found out by accident when I happened to notice this OM comings and goings to her home. I thought that he might be a brother of hers, and so I mentioned it to her. She broke down in tears and told me the whole story. As all affairs, it started with innocent talks about her husband and how she was coping with the situation. Slowly she started feeling less lonely until one day they embraced and the rest is history. And while she acknowledged that her body is no longer exclusive to her incapacitated husband, her heart is his and forever will be his.


Honestly, I'd prefer to divorce and be sent to a facility where I could receive the care that I needed in order to prevent my wife from having to live in such agony. After all, it's not like I'd know any better... right? Plus she could always come visit.

She'd then be free to pursue a new relationship, and to hopefully find at least _some_ happiness for herself.



chaos said:


> Her situation caused me to think that perhaps a tiny group of people in her tragic situation, should not suffer under the same blanket condemnation we normally throw at unfaithful spouses.


I'd agree.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> As a general rule, women will not cheat if they have a reasonably high romantic interest in their mate. As with everything, there are a few exceptions.
> 
> Over 20 years ago, I served as a surrogate husband to a couple who were deeply in love and now married over a half a century. He had nerve damage due to a job accident and was awaiting penile implant surgery. They would get deep into foreplay and I would enter their room with her blindfolded and the room dark. The agreement was that I performed a single function and would not speak or otherwise communicate. The arrangement ended after his recovery and to this day, she never laid eyes on me. The husband chose me because of similar body types. It apparently worked for them.


Interesting. I've never heard of something quite like this before.

Poor guy. That had to be agony for him. I'm glad he was able to recover.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> I'd be MORE worried about a perfectly happy, fully in love, commited forever spouse who cheated than one who was disgruntled in the marriage. Scary thought if you really think about it.


Regret214, tears, and Un_Amor_Perdido come to mind.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> As a general rule, women will not cheat if they have a reasonably high romantic interest in their mate. As with everything, there are a few exceptions.
> 
> Over 20 years ago, I served as a surrogate husband to a couple who were deeply in love and now married over a half a century. He had nerve damage due to a job accident and was awaiting penile implant surgery. They would get deep into foreplay and I would enter their room with her blindfolded and the room dark. The agreement was that I performed a single function and would not speak or otherwise communicate. The arrangement ended after his recovery and to this day, she never laid eyes on me. The husband chose me because of similar body types. It apparently worked for them.




I heard a similar story. Man had edand the surrogate pleasur her body while she could only look into her husband's eyes. She was only allowed to kiss her husband, maintain eye contact, and address only him during the act.

Another similar story is a wife had some medical issue where she lost her libido. She allowed him to sleep with another woman of her choosing only. After four years , her libido returned, and that ended their open marriage. I think she was there so he did not develop an attachment, and she had veto power when it had to end.

Both cases, they were minimizing the need to form an attachment, and in the case of the ed husband, he redirected it to himself. I think I got these stories off emails sent to dan savage, a relationship advisor.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

In a case of a spouse who is so far gone that they no longer know what reality is, which I've been through with a relative.... well can it even be considered cheating if the ill spouse is incapable of being in the "here and now" to understand it? 

How can you cheat on someone who has lost the ability to even comprehend what you are doing? That person hasn't lost anything, because they have nothing left to lose. They can't feel hurt that you are seeing someone else because they can't understand it in the first place. It cannot exist to them any more than telling them who you are for the 500th time will exist to them in an hour. You will repeat who you are tomorrow because there is no "now" for them anymore. You are no longer their spouse as they once knew you, except in whatever parts of their mind that now mostly inaccessible memory resides.

It's something DH and I have discussed, and agree that we would want each other to find someone else if one of us isn't really one of us anymore.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

vms,

I can see your point, and I agree this would be a tragic and terrible situation to have to live through.

But, that said, there is no excuse for cheating ever, even under these circumstances.

My parents are approaching the age where health is starting to rapidly deteriorate.

I can tell you this...if either of them began an A under these circumstances I would be beyond livid with them...even if the BS was mentally unaware of the betrayal.

Giving your word/vow to someone is supposed to mean something....and I don't recall M vows saying anything about lapsing if the are no longer convenient or are painful to keep.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Regret214, tears, and Un_Amor_Perdido come to mind.


Those people all posted their "reasons" for cheating. 

None appeared to be content in their marriages when they started cheating. 

I wasn't talking about post affair which is how I think you took it.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Bruticus said:


> perhaps. Alzheimer's is unique because the mind is not right. if it were a physical ailment instead and the husband's mind was right, perhaps it would be a more despicable act?


Or worse if you think about it...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Those people all posted their "reasons" for cheating.
> 
> None appeared to be content in their marriages when they started cheating.
> 
> I wasn't talking about post affair which is how I think you took it.


Unless I've just read their threads wrong (or maybe I'm remembering correctly...?), each of them was reasonably happy in their marriages and had no _real "reason"_ to stray. It really did seem to be curiosity (paired w/ temptation, of course) more than anything else.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Dyokemm said:


> vms,
> 
> I can see your point, and I agree this would be a tragic and terrible situation to have to live through.
> 
> ...


Cheating is in the eye of the betrayed, which is why DH and I say a scenario where one of us has lost their mental capacities isn't cheating. 

It isn't cheating if one person is incapable of feeling betrayal or hurt. 

It actually would be controlling of him, from my POV, to say "If only my body exists, and what you know of me is gone, don't ever look for comfort and companionship until my body is dead."

That could be 10 or 20 years. That's an awful lot to ask of someone. That isn't our definition of love. Forcing someone to be lonely and chaste when that doesn't have to be the case, and no one could be hurt by what would not BE an affair to us? No, we could never do that to each other. It's not an affair if permission is given.

We did take vows - vows to make sure each other is happy and looked after. Staying lonely and chaste in this kind of scenario would go AGAINST our vows.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

vms said:


> In a case of a spouse who is so far gone that they no longer know what reality is, which I've been through with a relative.... well can it even be considered cheating if the ill spouse is incapable of being in the "here and now" to understand it?
> 
> How can you cheat on someone who has lost the ability to even comprehend what you are doing? That person hasn't lost anything, because they have nothing left to lose. They can't feel hurt that you are seeing someone else because they can't understand it in the first place. It cannot exist to them any more than telling them who you are for the 500th time will exist to them in an hour. You will repeat who you are tomorrow because there is no "now" for them anymore. You are no longer their spouse as they once knew you, except in whatever parts of their mind that now mostly inaccessible memory resides.
> 
> It's something DH and I have discussed, and agree that we would want each other to find someone else if one of us isn't really one of us anymore.


I understand your point. How I see it...

I know folks where early in their marriage, the H was totally incapacitated. 99% vegetative, meaning barely conscious and totally unable to do anything. They stayed married, W raised the kids alone. W cared for him, never divorced, dated, or cheated. 45 years later, he died. 

There are simply no exceptions to boundaries, faith, love and marriage. That's how I feel. For better or worse. No exceptions. 

If you both agree, great. I totally get it. I've seen both. I choose fidelity. With that in mind, I told my W to check me in, D and move on. Come visit if desired but no obligations. If the situation were reversed, I'd stay by her side. That's me. She desires the same with me, to check her in. I can't. I'd stay.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Q tip said:


> I understand your point. How I see it...
> 
> I know folks where early in their marriage, the H was totally incapacitated. 99% vegetative, meaning barely conscious. They stayed married, W raised the kids alone. W cared for him, never divorced, dated, or cheated. 45 years later, he died.
> 
> ...


In the case of something like a vegetative state, I'd divorce. I'd expect him to do the same. 

So long as I had someone to make sure my body was taken care of, then I'd be fine. I wouldn't ever know the difference if he was there or not anyway.

You have no way of knowing if your friend never saw anyone else in those 45 years. How could you? Why would she publicise that?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I agree with Dyok, completely.

Qtip too


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

vms said:


> In the case of something like a vegetative state, I'd divorce. I'd expect him to do the same.
> 
> So long as I had someone to make sure my body was taken care of, then I'd be fine. I wouldn't ever know the difference if he was there or not anyway.
> 
> You have no way of knowing if your friend never saw anyone else in those 45 years. How could you? Why would she publicise that?


Well, you have no way of knowing, not me.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

vms,

I'm glad you and your H have actually discussed this scenario...it's very prudent IMO.

And I totally agree with your views/decisions on this matter as a couple...its practical and reasonable.

That said, I don't think most couples have this discussion and come to an understanding....I can almost guarantee you my parents haven't for instance.

In the absence of such an understanding though, I think the cheating is inexcusable.

If such a scenario happened with my parents, for example, I and my sisters would view it as almost abusive of the incapacitated parent.

My first thought when I read that post was one of huge sympathy for the woman (and I still do...its a horrible thing to have to deal with).

My second was this....Man, I wonder what their children or grandchildren would think if they found out about this?

And loneliness is not an excuse IMO.

I've been single for the vast majority of my adult life (by choice) with the exception of a few LTR's and I truly get the isolated feeling that OCCASIONALLY comes with being alone...but those feelings are never constant, especially if you do not dwell on them, and are never an excuse to engage in acts that would be hurtful towards other people....it actually really p*sses me off to read about WS's who try to use the 'I was lonely' excuse for their crappy behavior and choices.


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## elizabethb (Jun 14, 2011)

I could not cheat for sexual reasons if I loved my husband and was happy with him. If you have everything you need at home, why to looking for it somewhere else? I can see why people cheat when they lose emotional connection and find it with someone else which not necessary means they would have sex afterwards.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Bruticus said:


> I would certainly be appreciative of her up front honesty about the whole thing. sneaking around behind my back would piss me off more than anything I can think of. still, not sure I possess what it would take to forgive and move on from that. I guess some people have it and some people don't.


But I take my hat off to faithful spouses who discover the infidelity of their wayward spouse and who can work through it and reconcile.

That's so special there probably isn't a word for it. Oh, there is. It's Grace.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

Q tip said:


> Well, you have no way of knowing, not me.


Did you hook her up to a polygraph? If not, then no, you don't know.


----------



## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

vms said:


> Did you hook her up to a polygraph? If not, then no, you don't know.


My Goodness, young lady. Leave it. Unless you're a dictionary (always has the last word). 

B'sides, there are simple ways to defeat a poly.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Unless I've just read their threads wrong (or maybe I'm remembering correctly...?), each of them was reasonably happy in their marriages and had no _real "reason"_ to stray. It really did seem to be curiosity (paired w/ temptation, of course) more than anything else.


I don't want to speak for other people but I just assume something was missing, for them, in the marriage. Bored, not enough attention, escape from reality, whatever cheater self justification they come up with. If you are in a happy and fulfilled marriage what reason is there to stray?

Put it another way, if your spouse is completely happy with you and STILL cheats then what in the world would stop her from doing it again? This is how a person who is content and in love with you acts in your marriage? I can only imagine what she would do if she wasn't happy... 

Like I said scary stuff.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Bruticus said:


> perhaps. Alzheimer's is unique because the mind is not right. if it were a physical ailment instead and the husband's mind was right, perhaps it would be a more despicable act?


There are, for example, sexless marriages. The "sex in marriage" section on TAM is filled with them. Often the reason is medical. Sometimes there is simply a total loss of libido.

Obviously the first thing to do is to talk about it. Next is to get medical advice. Then if nothing works one has to talk about it again.

There are spouses, recognizing the needs of their partner, who will give a "hall pass" or the equivalent. I don't regard that as cheating.

The worst occurs when the marriage partner with the lost libido simply refuses to do anything about it or even talk about it. This leaves the partner with the ugly choice of divorce or living with it.

Few here would knowingly buy into say 20 years of marriage without sex.

But for some, even divorce is very hard. Grown children (the sex problems often occur with older folks) may regard it as a betrayal of one parent by the other. Or the marriage could, in other ways, be a very good one.

This is a very difficult situation. My feeling is that the decision about what to do should be left to those involved. Nobody can decide for them and nobody can (or should) force a decision on them.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vms said:


> Cheating is in the eye of the betrayed, which is why DH and I say a scenario where one of us has lost their mental capacities isn't cheating.
> 
> It isn't cheating if one person is incapable of feeling betrayal or hurt.
> 
> ...


I'm with you. The only other way out would be divorce. And that would really complicate matters such as insurance, funding, hospital visitations and so on.

I know of a case where a couple were in the act of divorcing when the wife was diagnosed with advanced uterine cancer. The husband cancelled the divorce proceedings so that she'd still be covered by his insurance. They agreed that he'd be a free agent and he was though he rarely strayed.

She died a few years later, still young, and leaving several young children.

I always thought that the husband did a noble thing.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vms said:


> Did you hook her up to a polygraph? If not, then no, you don't know.


Polygraphs are unreliable. Look it up.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> Polygraphs are unreliable. Look it up.


Point is, unless he was glued to his friend's hip for 45 years, he only has her word. How often do people who "cheat" (which I wouldn't have called it that in her case) tell people what they are doing? "Hey how's it going! Oh by the way, I'm ****ing the gardener. How's things with you?" 

It bugs me when people say "oh my friend would never do that." We just have no way of knowing what happens in people's personal lives. I damn sure don't tell people, even friends, about everything I do. Some things are no one else's business. 

Never say never


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vms said:


> Point is, unless he was glued to his friend's hip for 45 years, he only has her word. How often do people who "cheat" (which I wouldn't have called it that in her case) tell people what they are doing? "Hey how's it going! Oh by the way, I'm ****ing the gardener. How's things with you?"
> 
> It bugs me when people say "oh my friend would never do that." We just have no way of knowing what happens in people's personal lives. I damn sure don't tell people, even friends, about everything I do. Some things are no one else's business.
> 
> Never say never


You make an excellent point.

I'm sure that 90% or more of the folks who have cheated on their spouses would have sworn when they got married that they'd never cheat. I've been around long enough to know that cheating sneaks up on folks, very often starts off innocently, and then some odd event or happenstance comes by and there they are.

Folks say "weak boundaries" and they are right. Problem is that most of us have weakened boundaries at some point in time. Some situations encourage it: girls night out is one, boys night out is another. Being separated by a long distance for a long time is another. Going off to a conference or sales meeting or whatever is yet another.

We are all human. And history clearly tells us that infidelity has been with us forever. In my opinion all that one can really do about it is to make sure that you really communicate with your spouse about basic issues and stay in touch on those issues.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

vms said:


> Point is, unless he was glued to his friend's hip for 45 years, he only has her word. How often do people who "cheat" (which I wouldn't have called it that in her case) tell people what they are doing? "Hey how's it going! Oh by the way, I'm ****ing the gardener. How's things with you?"
> 
> It bugs me when people say "oh my friend would never do that." We just have no way of knowing what happens in people's personal lives. I damn sure don't tell people, even friends, about everything I do. Some things are no one else's business.
> 
> Never say never


You have no way of knowing. Not me.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Interesting. I've never heard of something quite like this before.
> 
> Poor guy. That had to be agony for him. I'm glad he was able to recover.


yes Gus. I personally would never be able to deal with that. It would have to be divorce city if I was the injured one. To each their own I guess but that is not a life for me.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> As a general rule, women will not cheat if they have a reasonably high romantic interest in their mate. As with everything, there are a few exceptions.
> 
> Over 20 years ago, I served as a surrogate husband to a couple who were deeply in love and now married over a half a century. He had nerve damage due to a job accident and was awaiting penile implant surgery. They would get deep into foreplay and I would enter their room with her blindfolded and the room dark. The agreement was that I performed a single function and would not speak or otherwise communicate. The arrangement ended after his recovery and to this day, she never laid eyes on me. The husband chose me because of similar body types. It apparently worked for them.


Swinging is still swinging and women will cheat for the same reasons men will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> I don't want to speak for other people but I just assume something was missing, for them, in the marriage. Bored, not enough attention, escape from reality, whatever cheater self justification they come up with. If you are in a happy and fulfilled marriage what reason is there to stray?
> 
> Put it another way, if your spouse is completely happy with you and STILL cheats then what in the world would stop her from doing it again? This is how a person who is content and in love with you acts in your marriage? I can only imagine what she would do if she wasn't happy...
> 
> Like I said scary stuff.


Many times the only thing missing is an extra swinging d1ck or hot ass. A lot of people just want multiple lovers. A lot of people simply suck when it comes to controlling their crotch monster.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

chaos said:


> Maybe you are right but then again it could be that he was a very lonely widower who may not have started with any intentions to seduce a very lonely elderly woman. She didn't tell me who made the first move and I frankly didn't care. The reality was that her husband was no longer coming back from that degenerative and terminal neurological disease. I tend to believe that in this tragic situation, it was loneliness and not evil that was the cause of this affair.


Personally, I agree with the people here that say that cheating is cheating and there's no exceptions. It is easy for all of us to look into tragic situations and say whether it was right or wrong from our perspective but like another here, I know a guy who got paralyzed by a tree falling on him.

He gave his wife the green light to LEAVE !!! but not to cheat. To me, this was caring. It's been 16 years. By all signs, she has never cheated and she stayed by him and I respect that completely. 

While visiting him a few weeks ago, he told me how lucky he was. he said "I couldn't be sitting here locked into this wheelchair not being able to take a walk on my deck while I knew my wife was getting hammered by some other guy.

To me, forever is forever. I am not a holy roller but I am not going to confront my God after having committed adultery and if I have to wait 20 years here but will be taken care of forever, I am good for that. I couldn't come home and look at my wife after going doggie style with another woman. No way !!

And I say that with a degree of respect for people who disagree and take a different path but not in my life


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

vms said:


> Did you hook her up to a polygraph? If not, then no, you don't know.



he knows these people, you don't so I trust his judgement on this and not yours VMS


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Q tip said:


> Wow. What I see in her situation was the OM taking absolute advantage of her situation and is pure evil. I could go on and on trashing this situation. She's been taken advantage of by someone who knew what he was doing and has zero respect for marriage. Hers or anyone else's.
> 
> *vomit*


People with Alzheimer's are often more aware of what is going on around them than people want to admit.

That sob is doing her in his home!??!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

chaos said:


> Maybe you are right but then again it could be that he was a very lonely widower who may not have started with any intentions to seduce a very lonely elderly woman. She didn't tell me who made the first move and I frankly didn't care. The reality was that her husband was no longer coming back from that degenerative and terminal neurological disease. I tend to believe that in this tragic situation, it was loneliness and not evil that was the cause of this affair.


Would be great if the husband had a week of clarity and kicked his "good friend" so hard in the junk that they had to amputate and then divorce his ww.

I think it is revolting!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> You make an excellent point.
> 
> I'm sure that 90% or more of the folks who have cheated on their spouses would have sworn when they got married that they'd never cheat. I've been around long enough to know that cheating sneaks up on folks, very often starts off innocently, and then some odd event or happenstance comes by and there they are.
> 
> ...



disagreed. Some of us have strong boundaries and do a much better job blocking these potential circumstances than others.

It's a matter of will power, intelligence and respect. 

I've been in relationships for 29 years I have never cheated, not even close. I passed up on tons of opportunities. I have also never went after someone else's woman. 

I am one example and you have tons f people even better at it than me


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> he knows these people, you don't so I trust his judgement on this and not yours VMS


If my time on this rock -- and on TAM most especially -- has taught me anything, it's that we can only ever _truly_ know ourselves... and, sometimes, even that isn't a given.

And I think that was vms's point.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Would be great if the husband had a week of clarity and kicked his "good friend" so hard in the junk that they had to amputate and then divorce his ww.
> 
> I think it is revolting!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It would be Conan. I would pay for the popcorn to watch it as well


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> You make an excellent point.
> 
> I'm sure that 90% or more of the folks who have cheated on their spouses would have sworn when they got married that they'd never cheat. I've been around long enough to know that cheating sneaks up on folks, very often starts off innocently, and then some odd event or happenstance comes by and there they are.
> 
> ...


Indeed. In fact, if one were to take exactly one thing -- and absolutely nothing else -- from the Book of Genesis, it should be that the only guy anywhere that could ever _truly_ be assured of his children's parentage was Adam.

:lol:


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> If my time on this rock -- and on TAM most especially -- has taught me anything, it's that we can only ever _truly_ know ourselves... and sometimes, even that isn't a given.
> 
> And I think that was vms's point.


I get it Gus but some of us know people in and out and base our confidence level on that. I am confident he knows his friends well enough to make this educated guess, maybe even based on their statements and his observations. Is it 100% ? No. I would say and bet at 99%. But VMS kept hammering at the point and I feel Q was right in telling her to back off because she doesn't know these people, he does. That was where I was going.

Just saying .....


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> But I take my hat off to faithful spouses who discover the infidelity of their wayward spouse and who can work through it and reconcile.
> 
> That's so special there probably isn't a word for it. Oh, there is. It's Grace.


I admire people who make healthy choices. There are many BSs in R that don't generate an ounce of respect from me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> I get it Gus but *some of us know people in and out* and base our confidence level on that. I am confident he knows his friends well enough to make this educated guess, maybe even based on their statements and his observations. Is it 100% ? No. I would say and bet at 99%. But VMS kept hammering at the point and I feel Q was right in telling her to back off because she doesn't know these people, he does. That was where I was going.
> 
> Just saying .....


Or at least you THINK that you do.

Just saying...


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> There are, for example, sexless marriages. The "sex in marriage" section on TAM is filled with them. Often the reason is medical. Sometimes there is simply a total loss of libido.
> 
> Obviously the first thing to do is to talk about it. Next is to get medical advice. Then if nothing works one has to talk about it again.
> 
> ...


Hall passes are cheating, it's just arranged and accepted by both sides to some capacity.

And I feel that divorce in such a case is appropriate rather than cheating.

You make one good point. Noone should force a decision on them.

However, let me ask you this. I had someone who I knew who I worked with that was critically injured on duty. Paralysis to an extent etc... He couldn't deal with his wife cheating on him but he also couldn't hold her back out of care for her. So he had an incredible support group and left the marriage and to this day is living a decent life and following his interests. She couldn't go without sex but didn't want him to leave. She wanted the 'hall pass'. He refused but did the next best thing. Good God,man this guy is crippled, why should he have to live the rest of his life watching NASCAR races from his wheelchair while his wife has some other guy's junk in her face 5 miles away ?? Some people can compartmentalize it, others can't and I personally wouldn't be able to.

So in this above scenario, who do you think got it wrong ?

For every person who says that someone should be willing to please their spouse by bending the marital vows to allow a 'hall pass', there is another who says that marital vows are marital vows and cheating is unacceptable. 

Not to be religious but the seventh commandment doesn't say "unless you are in a wheelchair"


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Or at least you THINK that you do.
> 
> Just saying...


I disagree with you on this Gus. BTW, that is a rarity as I think I have never disagreed with you here. If I have, it may have been once or twice max. So we'll agree to disagree but I still don't agree with VMS' original point.

We'll leave it at that


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

chaos said:


> I can't fault your logic so I'm not going to argue with what your saying since it parallels in large part my own beliefs on the matter of infidelity. But I will give you my opinion/observation, especially in the case of your in law who had an EA but cared for her invalid spouse.
> 
> Affairs, like illnesses, can come in to existence from a wide variety of factors - or justifications if you prefer that term instead. Most of the times they are simply selfish, cowardly and massively destructive escapes from marital problems and to avoid that which they know is the lesser damaging of all unpalatable solutions, divorce. I think we can all agree on this.
> 
> ...


Bvllsh!T. If my wife is incapacitated my every energy is going to be spent caring for her and loving her.

Saying someone has your heart while your letting someone else fvck you is pure Bull!!!

I have my hand and nothing wrong with friends but letting someone fvck you and in the house your taking care if the one you really"love"?

What a nightmare if her husband was aware but unable to respond. Glad that lovely woman is having a good time though. That is all that apparently matters to her.

I would rather be cared for by nurses than my wife who brought my "friend" over to fvck her on my own bed. I would never want to be touched by her again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> Hall passes are cheating, it's just arranged and accepted by both sides to some capacity.
> 
> And I feel that divorce in such a case is appropriate rather than cheating.
> 
> ...


The part in blue pretty much answers the part in red.

One person's choice might not be the same as another's, but that in and of itself doesn't necessarily make either of them wrong.

Yes, cheating is wrong. But, in the view of many (myself included), when all parties consent, it's not "cheating".


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> I disagree with you on this Gus. BTW, that is a rarity as I think I have never disagreed with you here. If I have, it may have been once or twice max. So we'll agree to disagree but I still don't agree with VMS' original point.
> 
> We'll leave it at that


Your wife cheated on you, correct? If you took nothing else away from that nightmare, it should have been exactly what I said earlier -- that we can only ever truly know ourselves.

We can agree to disagree, though. That just makes you wro...

NO!!! BAD GUS!!!


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Bvllsh!T. If my wife is incapacitated my every energy is going to be spent caring for her and loving her.
> 
> Saying someone has your heart while your letting someone else fvck you is pure Bull!!!
> 
> ...


or kissed by her after she was doing oral. 


agreed 10000000%, Conan.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Your wife cheated on you, correct? If you took nothing else away from that nightmare, it should have been exactly what I said earlier -- that we can only ever truly know ourselves.
> 
> We can agree to disagree, though. That just makes you wro...
> 
> NO!!! BAD GUS!!!


and you know what Gus ? I am pretty damn confident that when I leave my In-Laws house, they don't don capes and hoods, burn a pentagram into their living room floor. and sacrifice a goat.

As I told you, knowledge is confidence. And confidence is key. Not absolute but in some cases pretty damn close. Qtip knows these people in and out, and in the process of badgering him, VMS kept slapping his judgement when most of us would have yielded to him. That was my point. I yield all the time to people on these boards if they personally know someone and make a statement of how they are.

And no, my 'current' wife has never cheated on me though I have been cheated on in the past, yes. And I ignored warning signs that should have biotch slapped me in the face.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> The part in blue pretty much answers the part in red.
> 
> One person's choice might not be the same as another's, but that in and of itself doesn't necessarily make either of them wrong.
> 
> Yes, cheating is wrong. But, in the view of many (myself included), when all parties consent, it's not "cheating".


but the question was in relation to what Sidney said and I was asking him in order to get him to elaborate on his point a little. I will wait to see if he responds. 

I agree that in the view of many, when parties consent, it is not cheating. But in the view of many, it is.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> The part in blue pretty much answers the part in red.
> 
> One person's choice might not be the same as another's, but that in and of itself doesn't necessarily make either of them wrong.
> 
> Yes, cheating is wrong. But, in the view of many (myself included), when all parties consent, it's not "cheating".


Nor is it marriage. Some kind of contractual partnership but not marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Nor is it marriage. Some kind of contractual partnership but not marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Marriage by whose definition? Who and what defines marriage?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> and you know what Gus ? I am pretty damn confident that when I leave my In-Laws house, they don't don capes and hoods, burn a pentagram into their living room floor. and sacrifice a goat.
> 
> As I told you, knowledge is confidence. And confidence is key. Not absolute but in some cases pretty damn close. Qtip knows these people in and out, and in the process of badgering him, VMS kept slapping his judgement when most of us would have yielded to him. That was my point. I yield all the time to people on these boards if they personally know someone and make a statement of how they are.


Good Lord. Dude... nevermind.



wmn1 said:


> And no, my 'current' wife has never cheated on me...


Ah. Apologies.



wmn1 said:


> ...though I have been cheated on in the past, yes. And *I ignored warning signs that should have biotch slapped me in the face.*


Yeah, we tend to do that. Want to know why?

It's because that you never thought that it would happen to you. Or, more specifically, _it's because you never thought *that person* would do that to you._


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> but the question was in relation to what Sidney said and I was asking him in order to get him to elaborate on his point a little. I will wait to see if he responds.
> 
> I agree that in the view of many, when parties consent, it is not cheating. But in the view of many, it is.


That's fine, but to those involved in it, the views of others -- especially those _not_ involved in it -- won't matter at all.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

vms said:


> Marriage by whose definition? Who and what defines marriage?


People can do whatever they want and try to dress it up as marriage but I will not honor or respect everything as marriage.

If people aren't grown up enough for marriage, and I think that is the majority today, they should at least be honest and call it something else.

Having a sexual relationship with your SO, the plumber, the neighbors and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich will not be honored as a marriage by me. Call it what you will but expect me to respect every crazy choice people make and it just gives me a good laugh.

A 300 lb. man can call himself a little girl all he wants but better not get mad when I knock him out for trying to follow my niece into the ladies room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> People can do whatever they want and try to dress it up as marriage but I will not honor or respect everything as marriage.
> 
> If people aren't grown up enough for marriage, and I think that is the majority today, they should at least be honest and call it something else.
> 
> ...


Why do you think anyone needs YOU to "honor their marriage"?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Good Lord. Dude... nevermind.
> 
> 
> **** I agree. Nevermind. Because we will never agree here.
> ...


and I still feel that my wife will never cheat on me. I have that level of confidence, otherwise I wouldn't be with her


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> That's fine, but to those involved in it, the views of others -- especially those _not_ involved in it -- won't matter at all.


but when their hut burns down, many times they reach out to others or wish that they never started down the path to begin with.

Again we'll agree to disagree


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> and I still feel that my wife will never cheat on me. I have that level of confidence, otherwise I wouldn't be with her


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

vms said:


> Why do you think anyone needs YOU to "honor their marriage"?


By even calling it marriage. People are doing asinine things and calling it marriage. Fine, but if I don't call it marriage they get their underwear in a wad.

Your kind of proving my point by being offended that I don't call certain arrangements marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> but when their hut burns down, many times they reach out to others or wish that they never started down the path to begin with.


Yeah, that happens. But who cares? It'll be on them, and they -- not you -- will have to deal w/ it. 



wmn1 said:


> Again we'll agree to disagree


We'd probably agree on far more things than we'd disagree, but the more words that we throw at each other, the more trivial little insignificant nothings we'll find to disagree on.

And, honestly, this happens in far too many threads. It's exhausting, and it's one of the big reasons that I largely choose to not engage in all the tit-for-tat back and forth.

I guess I had too much caffeine earlier.


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## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> By even calling it marriage. People are doing asinine things and calling it marriage. Fine, but if I don't call it marriage they get their underwear in a wad.
> 
> Your kind of proving my point by being offended that I don't call certain arrangements marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm amazed that you are able to tell me how I'm feeling based on a few sentences.

Tell me, what am I feeling now? 


.... 

How about how? 

... 

Respect happens when you can apply "live and let live" to your world views. This doesn't mean you don't ask questions or debate or what have you, but respect is NOT saying "You do this different than me so you don't get my approval, and I say you are wrong."

Because that's what you're doing - you're saying anyone who doesn't have your views of what a marriage is (a question you dodged, actually) or have their marriage structured the way you think it should be, won't get their marriage acknowledged by you because they're wrong, they don't have a marriage. 

So what IS this oh so grand and important marriage definition that you subscribe to? You're so invested in it, surely you have a very lengthy and detailed description of it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

vms said:


> I'm amazed that you are able to tell me how I'm feeling based on a few sentences.
> 
> Tell me, what am I feeling now?
> 
> ...


Sorry that I thought you were offended. You obviously aren't. LOL! Tell you what, start a what is marriage thread so we stop jacking this one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


>


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)




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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

larry.gray said:


>


:allhail:


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

larry.gray said:


>



Thanks Larry but not true for everyone


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


>





wmn1 said:


>


Confucius say, "Confident horse die of thirst. After all, horse not camel."


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Confucius say, "Confident horse die of thirst. After all, horse not camel."


No problem. We'll see who ends up being correct. I am hopeful for my own sake that I am. 

And really, Confucius ????


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Sorry that I thought you were offended. You obviously aren't. LOL! Tell you what, start a what is marriage thread so we stop jacking this one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good God man, do you know what you are saying?!!! If it wasn't for the threadjacking, this thread would be dead.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Regret214, tears, and Un_Amor_Perdido come to mind.


posters who have experienced this unfortunate reality? i've only been here a month but i don't recognize the names, are they still active?


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

elizabethb said:


> I could not cheat for sexual reasons if I loved my husband and was happy with him. If you have everything you need at home, why to looking for it somewhere else? I can see why people cheat when they lose emotional connection and find it with someone else which not necessary means they would have sex afterwards.


I don't know, that's what i was trying to find out. I suspect most women fall into your category, but for those who don't, just curious what their mindset was and what may have happened as a result of their cheating.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> But I take my hat off to faithful spouses who discover the infidelity of their wayward spouse and who can work through it and reconcile.
> 
> That's so special there probably isn't a word for it. Oh, there is. It's Grace.


I don't know about that. I'm sure in some instances I would find virtue in their ability to work through it. Yet any spouse who would call it quits after discovering the infidelity would not hear a disparaging word from me. It's the cardinal sin of marriage.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Bruticus said:


> posters who have experienced this unfortunate reality? i've only been here a month but i don't recognize the names, are they still active?


Regret, tears, and UAP are each _formerly_ wayward wives.

None of them are currently active posters, but their threads are still around.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> Hall passes are cheating, it's just arranged and accepted by both sides to some capacity.
> 
> And I feel that divorce in such a case is appropriate rather than cheating.
> 
> ...


I agree. Hard as it may be, I would just have to set my wife free and divorce. If she just had some other guy's junk in her face, I'm not going to want her face in my face anymore.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> I had someone who I knew who I worked with that was critically injured on duty. Paralysis to an extent etc... He couldn't deal with his wife cheating on him but he also couldn't hold her back out of care for her. So he had an incredible support group and left the marriage and to this day is living a decent life and following his interests. She couldn't go without sex but didn't want him to leave. She wanted the 'hall pass'. He refused but did the next best thing.


Good for him. Many couples where one spouse is a paraplegic don't allow a non functioning penis, to define their sexual relationship. So there is no excuse, or reason for this man's now ex-wife to force him into a one sided open marriage. In my opinion this is far worse than an affair because there at least the cheating spouse has the decency of hiding it and not rubbing it in his/her spouse's face. This man may no longer have a wife but he has something much more important in his life, peace of mind.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Regret214, tears, and Un_Amor_Perdido come to mind.


Add Changing Me to that list.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Bruticus said:


> Women, have you or any other woman you know ever cheated on a husband that you/she truly loved, was happy with, and knew you/she wanted to spend forever with? I'm wondering how common it might be for women to stray for purely sexual reasons, with no inner turmoil regarding the marriage going on at all.



Sometimes I think this occurs more than the wayward woman admits. I think that, rather than admit it was done for predominantly sexual gratification, all sorts of rationalizations and revision of the marital history occurs....then the wayward wife (because your question is about women) can say "it was because the marriage was bad" and try to justify it in her mind.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"In my opinion this is far worse than an affair because there at least the cheating spouse has the decency of hiding it and not rubbing it in his/her spouse's face."

I see the point you are making Chaos, but I don't think I can agree.

I think the lying, deception, and traitorous nature of an A are actually far worse....to many posters here they are actually worse than the actual sex acts themselves.

IMO, the hiding has absolutely nothing to do with a sense of decency at all.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Wolfman1968 said:


> Sometimes I think this occurs more than the wayward woman admits. I think that, rather than admit it was done for predominantly sexual gratification, all sorts of rationalizations and revision of the marital history occurs....then the wayward wife (because your question is about women) can say "it was because the marriage was bad" and try to justify it in her mind.


I would tend to agree with this as women have been raised, until recently, to not be the aggressor or to seek their sexual gratifications. 

I know with my STBXW that she said it was for a host of other reasons related to things she was not getting in the marriage and the OM provided all of them and more (even went as far as to say he was exactly like me) and it wasn't just the sex. Funny thing is if he was exactly like me, how was he was able to give her what I wasn't? I was devastated by this until I found that she was involved with 4 different men at the same time. Then she claimed the same about all of them. Strange if she was getting what she needed from OM1 then why need the other 3? I then realized and told her it was strange how they were so great and better than I but it took 4 concurrently to replace me and even then all together they were not enough. The truth is something she would never own up to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> "In my opinion this is far worse than an affair because there at least the cheating spouse has the decency of hiding it and not rubbing it in his/her spouse's face."
> 
> I see the point you are making Chaos, but I don't think I can agree.
> 
> ...


I agree as they have no issue with the sexual escapades of the spouse's past because there was no betrayal attached to it. Lots say after she had his junk (insert place here) I can't look at her the same. Truth be known, unless she was a virgin when you met her there more than likely was that man's junk there before, especially if she cheats with an old ex. They had no problem look at her a certain way before when the junk had already been there but after the betrayal it is no different except the betrayal is now involved and now they are sickened by the thought. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> and I still feel that my wife will never cheat on me. I have that level of confidence, otherwise I wouldn't be with her


after your first wife did you wrong, did you feel as if you might never be able to trust women again and that you would never get married again?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

from Chaos:


Good for him. Many couples where one spouse is a paraplegic don't allow a non functioning penis, to define their sexual relationship. So there is no excuse, or reason for this man's now ex-wife to force him into a one sided open marriage. In my opinion this is far worse than an affair because there at least the cheating spouse has the decency of hiding it and not rubbing it in his/her spouse's face. This man may no longer have a wife but he has something much more important in his life, peace of mind. 






****** I agree completely. He is happy now and she ended up better off as well. Staying with her would have finished him IMO


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

chaos said:


> Good for him. Many couples where one spouse is a paraplegic don't allow a non functioning penis, to define their sexual relationship. So there is no excuse, or reason for this man's now ex-wife to force him into a one sided open marriage. In my opinion this is far worse than an affair because there at least the cheating spouse has the decency of hiding it and not rubbing it in his/her spouse's face. This man may no longer have a wife but he has something much more important in his life, peace of mind.


"the decency of hiding it"? I guess ignorance is bliss for some people. me, I'd rather have the truth forced down my throat or even up my arse painful as that might be, so long as I know the truth. maybe I'm a minority, but I find nothing "descent" about keeping affairs hidden.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

yes and no Bruticus. 

I knew at some point that she was flawed (sex abuse in the past and timid as a result) and so despite working on things before she cheated, I am a worst case scenario guy and I expected the end and was prepared for it. A miserable existence or situation to be involved in.

The thought of not marrying afterwards was big time but I know that there are many better fish in the sea and I would catch one and give it another try. 18 years later, we're solid as a rock


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

Wolfman1968 said:


> Sometimes I think this occurs more than the wayward woman admits. I think that, rather than admit it was done for predominantly sexual gratification, all sorts of rationalizations and revision of the marital history occurs....then the wayward wife (because your question is about women) can say "it was because the marriage was bad" and try to justify it in her mind.


I think there's an excellent chance that could be true. do you think this is because the woman will find it easier to hold onto her self respect if she convinces herself that she did it because of marital problems rather than simply wanting to get off with some other dude?


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> I would tend to agree with this as women have been raised, until recently, to not be the aggressor or to seek their sexual gratifications.
> 
> I know with my STBXW that she said it was for a host of other reasons related to things she was not getting in the marriage and the OM provided all of them and more (even went as far as to say he was exactly like me) and it wasn't just the sex. Funny thing is if he was exactly like me, how was he was able to give her what I wasn't? I was devastated by this until I found that she was involved with 4 different men at the same time. Then she claimed the same about all of them. Strange if she was getting what she needed from OM1 then why need the other 3? I then realized and told her it was strange how they were so great and better than I but it took 4 concurrently to replace me and even then all together they were not enough. The truth is something she would never own up to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


holy *&$#. get the hell out of that marriage asap. I have no idea if you and her have any kids together or not, but I hope you don't so that you could cut all ties with her 100% and never look back.....


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> yes and no Bruticus.
> 
> I knew at some point that she was flawed (sex abuse in the past and timid as a result) and so despite working on things before she cheated, I am a worst case scenario guy and I expected the end and was prepared for it. A miserable existence or situation to be involved in.
> 
> The thought of not marrying afterwards was big time but I know that there are many better fish in the sea and I would catch one and give it another try. 18 years later, we're solid as a rock


I'm sure it was a miserable situation to deal with. but don't you think that expecting and being prepared for the end might have made it a little easier to deal with? when I suspected my wife was cheating, I certainly didn't expect it and wasn't prepared for it at all. I thought everything was great and she never said otherwise, until much later. I can assure you that being shocked out of the blue one day is also a miserable experience.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I will pm you


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Bruticus said:


> I'm sure it was a miserable situation to deal with. but don't you think that expecting and being prepared for the end might have made it a little easier to deal with? when I suspected my wife was cheating, I certainly didn't expect it and wasn't prepared for it at all. I thought everything was great and she never said otherwise, until much later. *I can assure you that being shocked out of the blue one day is also a miserable experience.*


It's like being punched in the chest by a fully-loaded semi.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Bruticus said:


> holy *&$#. get the hell out of that marriage asap. I have no idea if you and her have any kids together or not, but I hope you don't so that you could cut all ties with her 100% and never look back.....


Yes, we have kids, so no ties can be cut completely but I am doing my best to do so as must as I can. It is a slap in the face I agree when one spouse hides it and you never know (easy when life takes over and working to provide is a full time + job), but don't be so shocked as my story isn't much different than many on here (except maybe the number of APs) and even then there are those with worse stories. In fact there are those that have the same exact story as I do (you could be one) that just haven't gotten near the truth from their WS and only are getting admission to that they can prove (believe me I was told only about the one guy and one time, and that is all she was going to admit to according to her and take the rest to her grave, until I dug further and found more that she could write off or deny). 

I am in the process of getting out, yet my state has strict guidelines that must be adhered to and I am doing that so it can be as short of a time as required.

Thanks for the concern though.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Yes, we have kids, so no ties can be cut completely but I am doing my best to do so as must as I can. It is a slap in the face I agree when one spouse hides it and you never know (easy when life takes over and working to provide is a full time + job), but don't be so shocked as my story isn't much different than many on here (except maybe the number of APs) and even then there are those with worse stories. In fact there are those that have the same exact story as I do (you could be one) that just haven't gotten near the truth from their WS and only are getting admission to that they can prove (believe me I was told only about the one guy and one time, and that is all she was going to admit to according to her and take the rest to her grave, until I dug further and found more that she could write off or deny).
> 
> I am in the process of getting out, yet my state has strict guidelines that must be adhered to and I am doing that so it can be as short of a time as required.
> 
> Thanks for the concern though.


I am aware that I "could be one", believe me. All I can say is that I absolutely put forth my best effort to find out as much of the truth as I possibly could with no concern for how much the truth could hurt. Everything was said and questioned that I could possibly think of and after all of that, she maintains that while she made mistakes, she remained faithful to me in that regard, and that she loves me and would never do that. I know that at this point, there are no more stones to turn over, no smoking gun waiting to be found, no guilt ridden confession coming my way, I have no choice but to take her work for it and move on. Perhaps she's just a remarkably skilled liar and actress, but I do believe her and I hope everything is great from this point forward.

Best of luck with the whole legal process and everything, hope it goes as smoothly as possible for you.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Bruticus said:


> I am aware that I "could be one", believe me. All I can say is that I absolutely put forth my best effort to find out as much of the truth as I possibly could with no concern for how much the truth could hurt. Everything was said and questioned that I could possibly think of and after all of that, she maintains that while she made mistakes, she remained faithful to me in that regard, and that she loves me and would never do that. I know that at this point, there are no more stones to turn over, no smoking gun waiting to be found, no guilt ridden confession coming my way, I have no choice but to take her work for it and move on. Perhaps she's just a remarkably skilled liar and actress, but I do believe her and I hope everything is great from this point forward.
> 
> Best of luck with the whole legal process and everything, hope it goes as smoothly as possible for you.


I wish you the best. All I can say is that she was able to pull off everything to this point so don't underestimate the levels a cheater will go to and the ability to lie and cover up (especially when that was what they wanted to do). I have been told by my STBXW that she wanted to be found out finally and she believes, this is why she became more careless and was discovered (as in her words she wanted to "hurt me and inflict pain" but managed to do so by even saying the statement as it was like a slap in the face regarding my intelligence.) 

I too am a detail oriented person and needed to know everything including every little detail and thought I had finally found everything (but I must say I recently discovered more about the things from that time, and it was "less" of a blow since we are separated, but still a hit to the ego and a testament to her ability to hide and cover things). I asked all the questions and did everything I could think of, yet she still denied (and without my knowledge carried it on in the underground (even getting encouragement and assistance in hiding things from her AP), so unless you have access to EVERY device she has every used, and that includes those of work and friends that knew and supported her, you may never truly know.

I even found it interesting (and she never even noticed it) but one AP had even changed email addresses (ever so slightly, such as the year on their username from 2010 to 2011) during the time of their affair (so it shows that cheaters are constantly at work hiding, even from their APs, and yes the OM was a serial as well). I also found many other email accounts, social accounts, etc that she claimed didn't exist (yet I found them, so how do they not exist I asked??), burner phones, and that she was having things delivered to her friends houses and work as well. I am in IT and skilled in security and software/ hardware support, so believe me when I say that you may never truly know everything with the ability to create new accounts so easy and readily available to everyone.

Although for your sake, I hope that you have found out and been told all and you may just want to cut your losses and stop hunting if you truly believe this. I however wouldn't "believe" her about anything she says. She needs to prove these things to you and shouldn't expect that you will just accept her word. She cheated and lied and therefor, she needs to prove herself and not expect you to just write everything off.

Good luck and I hope you have it all, but can bet you probably don't and never will. Estimates are that 80% of all marriages are affected by infidelity that NEVER go detected or found out for the life of marriage, NOT an encouraging fact for the BS at all.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> I wish you the best. All I can say is that she was able to pull off everything to this point so don't underestimate the levels a cheater will go to and the ability to lie and cover up (especially when that was what they wanted to do). I have been told by my STBXW that she wanted to be found out finally and she believes, this is why she became more careless and was discovered (as in her words she wanted to "hurt me and inflict pain" but managed to do so by even saying the statement as it was like a slap in the face regarding my intelligence.)
> 
> I too am a detail oriented person and needed to know everything including every little detail and thought I had finally found everything (but I must say I recently discovered more about the things from that time, and it was "less" of a blow since we are separated, but still a hit to the ego and a testament to her ability to hide and cover things). I asked all the questions and did everything I could think of, yet she still denied (and without my knowledge carried it on in the underground (even getting encouragement and assistance in hiding things from her AP), so unless you have access to EVERY device she has every used, and that includes those of work and friends that knew and supported her, you may never truly know.
> 
> ...


You certainly paint a bleak picture, but I guess that's what certain experiences can do to you. I have stopped "hunting for clues", I don't think there's anything left to find. and she never admitted to cheating, nor have I found any evidence (difficult as that may be), so I'm hopeful our situations are strikingly different. My wife did provide one piece of evidence to me that supports her claims, a letter she wrote to the guy when he was in jail (he was always in and out of jail). dare I say "fortunately", but the guy recently died from a heroine overdose and my wife picked up the letter from his sister, where he was staying after he got out. there's a jail stamp on the letter itself so I know it's legit. in this letter my wife told him that he needed to let go of these fantasies of him and her being together again and that she loved and was happy with me. 

still, I know it's possible that I may never know the whole truth and that's the most frustrating thing of all. it's incredible how somebody can sink to the depths that your stbxw did and not be overcome with guilt or get tired of putting out the effort to keep the affair hidden and eventually just volunteer info and decide to leave. people like that are really sick, like they get off on high tension and deceit.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Sorry, didn't mean to paint such a bleak picture, but it is the truth and sometimes those stories couldn't even be dreamed up.

I agree that it is amazing to think the levels one will stoop to (and mainly for self gratification and fulfillment) without concern for friends or family. The hardest thing to fathom is that we would like to believe that I am the exception here, but that is far from the truth and my case is basically the same as a large percentage of others. That is why lots here refer to the "cheater's script" as most of the cheater's seem to act. react, and spew forth in the same way as I am describing to you. That for me is the depressing part, that I haven't stumbled upon an anomaly, and this pins me to think that the next relationship could be plagued the same way, as there is no guarantee that people are representing themselves in the true way.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

chaos said:


> No not my situation - I'm a man - but I am acquainted with a married couple both in their late 60's who have been married more than 40 years and where the husband has been incapacitated with Alzheimer's for almost 8 years. His wife has been his caretaker for all that time and despite advice from her children, she has steadfastly refused to send him to a nursing facility for Alzheimer's patients. What few people know is that she has been having a PA with a mutual friend of theirs, a widower about the their age, for the last couple of years. We're neighbors and I found out by accident when I happened to notice this OM comings and goings to her home. I thought that he might be a brother of hers, and so I mentioned it to her. She broke down in tears and told me the whole story. As all affairs, it started with innocent talks about her husband and how she was coping with the situation. Slowly she started feeling less lonely until one day they embraced and the rest is history. And while she acknowledged that her body is no longer exclusive to her incapacitated husband, her heart is his and forever will be his.
> 
> Her situation caused me to think that perhaps a tiny group of people in her tragic situation, should not suffer under the same blanket condemnation we normally throw at unfaithful spouses.


Truly a shame- if I were in his position I would rather have her divorce me and put me in a home than to bring another man into our house for sex while I'm there.

I wonder if her vows went something like in health but not sickness??

Of course, from my own experience my former WW should have something like... until someone richer comes along.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to paint such a bleak picture, but it is the truth and sometimes those stories couldn't even be dreamed up.
> 
> I agree that it is amazing to think the levels one will stoop to (and mainly for self gratification and fulfillment) without concern for friends or family. The hardest thing to fathom is that we would like to believe that I am the exception here, but that is far from the truth and my case is basically the same as a large percentage of others. That is why lots here refer to the "cheater's script" as most of the cheater's seem to act. react, and spew forth in the same way as I am describing to you. That for me is the depressing part, that I haven't stumbled upon an anomaly, and this pins me to think that the next relationship could be plagued the same way, as there is no guarantee that people are representing themselves in the true way.


it's ok. if the truth is bleak, give me bleak. it's one thing to cheat on your spouse (one very bad thing), but it's sinking to all new depths to come home and lay with your unsuspecting spouse as if nothing had happened. i don't know how people can do that and continue to live with themselves. i'm sure the guilt would consume me.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Bruticus said:


> it's ok. if the truth is bleak, give me bleak. it's one thing to cheat on your spouse (one very bad thing), but it's sinking to all new depths to come home and lay with your unsuspecting spouse as if nothing had happened. i don't know how people can do that and continue to live with themselves. i'm sure the guilt would consume me.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Of course having been through this and seen these things firsthand, I can't see how one can belittle and berate their spouse to another while professing their undying love to also come home and lay by such spouse without any sort of remorse (or worse yet do it while laying next to said spouse doing it without concern). It isn't just the physical part I would feel shame from but also the emotional abandonment and betrayal.


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## Bruticus (Dec 18, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree: Of course having been through this and seen these things firsthand, I can't see how one can belittle and berate their spouse to another while professing their undying love to also come home and lay by such spouse without any sort of remorse (or worse yet do it while laying next to said spouse doing it without concern). It isn't just the physical part I would feel shame from but also the emotional abandonment and betrayal.


your stbx certainly appears to be a despicable woman. do you think she was always like that and you just didn't see it, or do you think she changed at some point? and, how old are your kids and does she try to poison their minds against you?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Bruticus said:


> ... it's one thing to cheat on your spouse (one very bad thing), but it's sinking to all new depths to come home and lay with your unsuspecting spouse as if nothing had happened. i don't know how people can do that and continue to live with themselves. i'm sure the guilt would consume me.


More bleak news. Even if the spouse reforms, is remorseful, and accepts responsibility, you'll never get an answer that has any type of healing power from them.

Basically, it will always be "I was wrong; I don't know myself; can't understand; can't explain;" etc.

So, you are left with this question and emotion you can never reconcile, and nowhere to go with it.

You'll think of it for years, and be in anguish. What are you supposed to do, ask them how they could do that every few months for the rest of your life? That would be very un-moving-forward-and-healing of you.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Forest said:


> More bleak news. Even if the spouse reforms, is remorseful, and accepts responsibility, you'll never get an answer that has any type of healing power from them.
> 
> Basically, it will always be "I was wrong; I don't know myself; can't understand; can't explain;" etc.
> 
> ...


So? You won't get an answer if you do get divorced anyway.

You either make peace with the knowledge that you will never get "the answer" or enjoy chasing your tail until the day you drop dead.

Your healing - heck anybody's - won't come from outside yourself. If it ever does, it will come from the inside after the inner brat finally gets put in his/her place.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Bruticus said:


> your stbx certainly appears to be a despicable woman. do you think she was always like that and you just didn't see it, or do you think she changed at some point? and, how old are your kids and does she try to poison their minds against you?


Not sure about the answer to this, as I am not sure. I thought i knew her and she knew me better than anyone else, and after this I have looked back and asked myself the same question about her "true" character and what it is or could be and if it has changed at some point in time.

We have two teen aged daughters and I would like to think she wouldn't stoop to that level but I can't say that I with any certainty either way.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> So? You won't get an answer if you do get divorced anyway.
> 
> You either make peace with the knowledge that you will never get "the answer" or enjoy chasing your tail until the day you drop dead.
> 
> Your healing - heck anybody's - won't come from outside yourself. If it ever does, it will come from the inside after the inner brat finally gets put in his/her place.


Yeah. Bleak.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Forest said:


> Yeah. Bleak.


It is until you stop believing that it is.


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