# BPD Engulfment/Abandonment ping pong



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Question,

Is it possible for the engulfment and the abandonment to be rapidly displayed back and forth?
It feels as though in dealing with my BPDw the fear of these two issues almost go now hand in hand or at least the resulting rage,reactions, etc..are displayed in an almost back and forth manner.

When she feels one...her actions seem to prompt her to then feel the other.

In other words...if she is feeling engulfed - she rages away at those in her proximity and then usually reacts in a fight/flight manner. Shortly after, when those around her either choose to try and talk about it...or simply give space (or hunker down a bit) she perceives that as abandonment.
And CURIOUSLY...her reaction is....Rage, anger, aggression.
It is almost as if ....in her fear of abandonment....she is trying to instead "act first"...ridding those around her.

(I hope I am describing this clearly)

It truly seems that the cycling between the two (engulfment/abandonment) is occurring (ping/ponging) at an even shorter cycle. Almost as though they are becoming enmeshed in the same incident.
(which makes coping with this an even more disturbing challenge)

The MOST curious part of this....is that what I would think woudl be the typical manner to deal with either of these fears ...NEVER happens. An honest, open, calm, and genuine discussion of feelings. IF that occurred - it would seem that BOTH these fears would be abated.
I TRULY (have really made sure to NOT do ANYTHING that could be construed as this) do not see real occurrences or actions that are engulfing by myself or the kids. And for SURE there is not ANYTHING that happens that showcase abandonment.
So WHY would someone who is suffering from these fears not WANT to discuss and dispel the fears?
Is the ping/pong game simply occur inside their head even with no apparent external signs??

This is INCREDIBLY confusing to me...as it would seem that there are SO many signs of the opposite that she should hold comfort in ....but seems to "want"(?) to hold firm to these fears..??

As all can imagine...the now rapid oscillation between these two places..AND ...her resulting actions...is very hard for anyone on the house to deal with. It is almost like we are watching it...without finding the "reasons" for why she is in that fear.
And anything we do...more space...support...etc...is ALWAYS wrong.
Has anyone else experienced this?
What is best advice to deal with it?

Thank you


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

Have you gone and checked out the link I gave you before? 

Significant Others, Family & Friends Forum - Psych forums

There's knowledgable people here and even more over there, some of whom have BPD and can give you insight from the BPDer perspective.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Will do that. Thanks.

Its been my experience - that this forum/site has some incredibly knowledgeable members on the is topic as well.

Thanks again.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Tell her what you are doing and why. It won't fix things but she will not be able to avoid facing that your family is responding in a way that protects themselves from her.

Your family wants peace. That's all they want and their responses to her ping ponging is more ping ponging. It isn't healthy.

You can only confront honestly.

"I am going to give you space because you are stressed from too much togetherness. I know this will cause you to feel abandoned and that you will react to it badly, but I am not abandoning you. I am right here if you want me. " 

" However if you blame me or attack me I will not move closer to you. I will move father away from you. That may convince you I am abandoning you but the reality would be that I am protecting myself from you. Protecting yourself from harm is completely rational. "

" In fact that is why we have these issues. You feel danger being too close and you feel danger being too far away. Unfortunately what is to close and to far away is only millimeters apart. We are in a constant state of reactivity."

" We love you but this is stressful and abusive and cannot continue. But until we are ready to fix this properly we will distance ourselves from you when you feel stressed. Just accept that ultimately your fear will become reality because none of us will want to be close to you over time. That's because you are not safe to be around emotionally. Nobody wants to be abused and the last person they should expect or accept abuse from is their spouse or parent. "

" This is not a threat. This is a predictable sequence of events based upon how people respond to certain types of situations. Fix this now or expect to find yourself alone at some point in the future."

And then get your family ready for the divorce.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Read your suggested comments to her. 
Very wqell written and useful.

That last sentence....chilling... what made you write that fi I may ask? Or better yet - was it a warning or an absolute?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

If she doesn't want to deal with it constructively through CBT to deal with regulating her black and white thinking she will get worse with time. We women have monthly cycles working against us for one thing. Then our chemistry has a good chance of going crazy at perimenopause. It takes decent mental health to self regulate when your body is telling you something that isn't true.

This isn't absolute. But it is on the more likely side than not. 

Does she have PMS? have you tried putting her cycles into a calendar?

It isn't her fault she got this way since there is usually trauma in the past that sort circuited development. But if she is reasonably intelligent she can see it and even if she can't seem to control it she must not like it much. In that case she is at fault for not doing something about it.

If she doesn't see it or acknowledge it you are doomed.

Either way your job as a parent is to protect your children from the mental illness that abuse causes. Whether your wife is treatable or not your kids are innocent and if you dint protect them nobody will.

Do not let their mom's illness isolate them. They must be free to talk about what they experience. They must have adults they can talk to.

Same for you.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

The untreated BPD is not self aware enough to recognize their fears for what they are. Until and unless they do, a discussion is impossible.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I dont think that can be started as absolute. They may be unwilling to admit being aware. There is a difference. Many people who I know who have been diagnosed are more astute than people who are not BPD. what they are also more of is reactive and when you are busy reacting you cannot choose to act in healthy ways. They are out of control and feel helpless. Someone who is fear driven does not trust enough to talk about their weaknesses because it makes them weaker. You will never know what they do or do not perceive.

People who are truly unaware? I would think of them more as being psychopaths.


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## BaxJanson (Apr 4, 2013)

I know that when I set boundaries like this, my wife responded by filing for separation. Still asks me out to go see a movie with her and the kids occasionally.

The last time we talked, she told me that she "is aware of the fact that she equates all sex with rape, that she has anger issues, abandonment issues, trust issues, control issues, insecurity issues, depression, hoarding tendencies, and an overwhelming need to protect the children from all possible harm - particularly the harm I might put them at risk of. And that those are who she is, they make her unique and special, and my insistence that she become less than who she is borders on being abusively controlling. They are strengths, and she will not change them, even for me."

I'm looking forward to finalizing the divorce. Even with therapy and awareness, it's no guarantee that she'll break free of the mental tornado I've come to equate BPD with. You must prepare yourself and learn to accept the possibility of divorce. Then, IF it happens (which is NOT a certainty) you will not be taken by surprise, and be prepared enough to protect not only yourself, but your children, as well.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

IS she aware?

Very interesting concept or wonder.

My wife's RAGES - are SO disturbing that she actaully even LOOKS different when going thru them.

When she gets really angry ...her teeth are gritted and bared...and ehr JAW muscles not only protrude - but they visibly spasm..and her head actually skakes/trembles.
(I ...am NOT kidding)

She says the MOST unbelievable foul, hurtful, and vulgar things.

SO... I often wonder (as later she is wanting to talk abou thte weather or what color we should paint the deck)...does she REMEMBER what that incident was like?????

Does she REMEMBER what she actually was SAYING? SCREAMING?

She HATES for me to want to talk about it. She HATES me recounting it. IF...I get a long enough conversation to actually recount some of the statements...she says she is pissed that I just cannot let them go..and undertand she was just "upset".

I once told her..."ok..look....if I am in a room...and someone picked up a gun...and started SHOOTING at me....I would 
A) have trouble "letting that go"
B) going to dinner with that person a few hours later

BUT MOSTLY...if me WIFE ..did that to me...I would NEED some form of explanation/dialog later...

SO the question remains...do they KNOW or are AWARE of how incredibly off the hook they become???

Only recently has my wife begun to quasi admit that "there may be factors that get her more unhinged then usual"....
That she is a "very emotional person".
(think if the gun shooter said that...LOL)
OHHHHHHH...you were emotional...makes sense ...all ok ...all forgiven...

SO - I am not sure that at least understand HOW out of bounds they get. AS I have read...they are like 4 yr olds...4 yr olds jus spew from an frontal lobe/lizard/ place.
OVer the CANDY you wont buy them.
I am NOT so sure that they niether are aware of how off the wall they are being..nor do they even quantify it.
It is WHO they are.

When I see it now as a 4yr old tantrum...it does not necessarily need to be making sense anymore.
(of course this is FAR more difficult than it sounds. MOst especially when the person is an adult WIFE. SO if the topic is sex...that is tough to just let roll off the back...)


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

The oscillations are the hallmark of BPD:

"I hate you! Don't leave me!"

You can talk and discuss all day long, until she recognizes and gets treated for it (something that you shouldn't even try to do because it will just build resentment), talking is pointless. Her viewpoint is different from yours and it's a bit like schizophrenia in that it is near impossible for them to understand that they are the ones with the warped viewpoint and not everyone else.

In her eyes she's being completely reasonable and YOU'RE the one being difficult. In fact, she will likely project her issues onto her. For example, in your case she might accuse you of flying off the handle and being abusive to her in arguments.

The Cluster B Personality Disorders, and specifically BPD, are to me, the worst thing someone can have in a relationship. Because likely they can function in society but a relationship with them will leave you emotionally drained, and the success rate of people going through the years of counseling necessary to get "cured" is lowest of any other mental health disorder. Meanwhile their MO is generally to isolate you from your friends and family and gaslight your emotions by having you think you're crazy, with no one around to validate your viewpoint, you will start to believe her and get sucked into the cycle of back and forthing.

Highly recommend the book Stop Walking On Eggshells and Emotional Vampires. Likely the stories will resonate very closely to your life. You should also look at CODA.org because if you're still in this relationship you have some degree of codependency (an emotionally healthy person would never stay in the kind of relationship you are in).

All that being said, after getting out of a relationship with someone that exhibited a myriad of Cluster B traits, I wonder why you are still there. As an outsider looking in to the window that you've shared with me, any benefits of the marriage pail in comparison to making you feel crazy all the time.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you COguy.

So it just hit me...is the CO ...in the member name short for CO-dependent??

You describe EXACTLY what it is like.
SHE cannot - see herself as either a wrong..or EVEN simply PART of the problem. (the OPPOSITE of any prverbial statment one can conjour up. "2 sides to story"..."both spouses are likely a part of every issue"...etc....etc...)

IN FACT...she will make it a POINT to say that this issue is a problem ONLY because of ME.

Our sex life. MY FAULT
Our conflicts...MY FAULT

EVEN things that are ONLY her issues....MY FAULT...I am to blame.

It is REALLY REALLY crazy.

BUT when I look at her family of origin.
It is EXACTLY how they act in the world.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

nightmoves8 said:


> Thank you COguy.
> 
> So it just hit me...is the CO ...in the member name short for CO-dependent??


No, but if it helps you, go for it.

You are reading what we are all saying but you aren't listening. You are trying to make sense of someone's thoughts that by definition doesn't think rationally or logically. That is the codependency in you trying to figure it out or fix it.

You need to get to a place where you stop trying to figure it out, you just recognize it for what it is; and stop tying your mental and emotional state to her reactions.

You're never going to fix her, you are in fact, a trigger for her. You are the person in this world that is most likely to PREVENT her from getting better. *You are not responsible for making her act in a different way.* Say that out loud, keep repeating it until you believe it.

Go get help for yourself, don't even try to work on your wife.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You could try this:

Marriage and the Long-Term Borderline Relationship


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Surviving a Break-up when Your Partner has Borderline Personality | BPDFamily


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Coguy.

Wow.

Thank you.

Your conviction is not easily missed.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jld said:


> You could try this: Marriage and the Long-Term Borderline Relationship


JLD, this is the tenth time you've referred TAM members to that specious website. It is a 7-page advertisement for Rick Reynold's $99 "life coaching" service and his $23 book -- _The BPD Success Program. _Rick promises that you can "Learn Exactly How to Succeed in BPD Relationships." Although this young guy has no credentials whatsoever, he claims to have _"vast knowledge"_ and to be an _"expert on relationships."_ He brags, _"Put me up against any psychologist, author, whatever and I guarantee I know more about BPD than any of them."_

Significantly, Rick has repeatedly failed to make his _"BPD Success Program"_ work even for himself. He concedes that he "spent years dating various BPD women," including one he recently dated for 13 months. He also concedes that he broke up with all of them. Rick's many claims about BPD and Codependency are so outrageous that I list a few of his howlers at my post in ShamelessLover's Thread.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

I'd also like to point out that his site is akin to telling a drug addict, "I've been a recovering drug addict and have finally found the secret to successfully dating drug dealers. You can do it too as long as you follow my strategy."

While a recovered drug addict might find some success dating a drug dealer, one weak moment and they're going to be in a world of hurt. Not to mention that most people trying to fix their BPD relationship are still dealing with codependency and are not anywhere close to being well enough to try salvaging a healthy relationship. Like a heroin addict saying, "I know I can make this work with my supplier! I'll just stop my addiction and start building a healthy relationship!"


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Uptown said:


> JLD, this is the tenth time you've referred TAM members to that specious website. It is a 7-page advertisement for Rick Reynold's $99 "life coaching" service and his $23 book -- _The BPD Success Program. _Rick promises that you can "Learn Exactly How to Succeed in BPD Relationships." Although this young guy has no credentials whatsoever, he claims to have _"vast knowledge"_ and to be an _"expert on relationships."_ He brags, _"Put me up against any psychologist, author, whatever and I guarantee I know more about BPD than any of them."_
> 
> Significantly, Rick has repeatedly failed to make his _"BPD Success Program"_ work even for himself. He concedes that he "spent years dating various BPD women," including one he recently dated for 13 months. He also concedes that he broke up with all of them. Rick's many claims about BPD and Codependency are so outrageous that I list a few of his howlers at my post in ShamelessLover's Thread.


What awful thing do you think is going to happen if people read that article, Uptown? 

Why so controlling about what people read?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jld said:


> What awful thing do you think is going to happen if people read that article, Uptown?
> 
> Why so controlling about what people read?


How do you figure he is controlling? I read that stupid site and let me tell you, as a BPD'er myself, that site just cracked me up. Freaking pseudo psychobabble.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> What awful thing do you think is going to happen if people read that article, Uptown?
> 
> Why so controlling about what people read?


More passive-aggressiveness from jld. She's been called out about that crappy website before.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> More passive-aggressiveness from jld. She's been called out about that crappy website before.


That's all she does, but when you call her on it, that's your problem. "Says more about you than it does her"........lol


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jld said:


> What awful thing do you think is going to happen if people read that article, Uptown?
> 
> Why so controlling about what people read?


I especially love this part that the author wrote...._Always defend yourself when she’s full of **** and tell her that what she’s saying is simply not the truth. Tell her to go f*** herself if she gets irrational and then leave._ 

Now jld, aren't you *always *saying a *man* should stand there and take his W's emotional vomit and *never,* ever leave the room? How can a* man* hear her heart if he tells his W to go fvck herself and then leaves the room?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> I especially love this part that the author wrote...._Always defend yourself when she’s full of **** and tell her that what she’s saying is simply not the truth. Tell her to go f*** herself if she gets irrational and then leave._
> 
> Now jld, aren't you *always *saying a *man* should stand there and take his W's emotional vomit and *never,* ever leave the room? How can a* man* hear her heart if he tells his W to go fvck herself and then leaves the room?


I wonder about that part, too. But it is better than just abandoning her outright, or spending thousands of dollars on therapy that may not work.

His basic message is say No to her and stick to it. It will make her respect him. And if she does not, he can leave her. Or she can leave, if she does not like how he deals with her. Neither is trapped.


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