# This is a tough one



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

Hi all,

I’m Spanish, therefore I apologize in advance for any spelling errors.

Long story short:
My wife has asked for a divorce in August 2020 and we got back on track after attending a therapy session. Then she’s asked for the divorce again on April 2021 but we got back on track again and she’s sent me a text message with an ultimatum stating “it is the last opportunity even if there is love in the marriage” and it mostly refers to the household chores, apparently what I did was never enough, however despite she telling me that, what was actually happening is that she had slowly lost attraction for me. 2 weeks (peaceful days, no arguing) after she sent the ultimatum, out of nowhere she simply stopped having sex stating that she was confused, and a week later she didn’t want to kiss me anymore. Finally, she’s asked for the divorce and this time she really meant it, she’s told me that she doesn’t love me anymore and that she could not trust me the same way. I have left the house because I could no longer live with her ignoring me like that, and because I was expecting that a 2 week separation would make her change her mind. After 2 weeks, we met again and we spoke a lot and I could see in her eyes that she was still in love with me but she kept resisting her feelings, althouh we hugged twice. We had lunch together and whilst waiting for the meal to come we kept talking to each other and she wouldn’t stop staring at my eyes and lips, but she became cold as I was driving her home.
So, after all the time, money and effort invested on my marriage here I am in a room separated from her and my 2 kids, but because there are a lot of pending issues, she has not filed for divorce yet, but she’s changed her last name on social media, therefore my family already suspects that something is going on. We’ve been meeting a lot since the breakup due to pending issues but we have also gone out twice just casually and I can see that she’s got feelings for me but she does not feel attracted enough, the reason I ask her out is precisely to re-attract her. On one day she opens up to me, on the next day she goes cold. 

To consider:

I would say that I have a 2 month window before she files for divorce.
On December 2020 she's had an appointment with our therapist but kept it secret until February 2021.
She displays hot and cold behavior.
85% of our relationship is made of good moments. The pandemic has definitely made it worse especially due to financial insecurity.
Whilst I am now employed in a well-paid job, she’s relying on social benefits but she does not pay rent and I still have to contribute for my kids’ expenses. Also, she drives her mother’s car which is not always available. If we were together, we would be in a win-win situation because I wouldn’t be needing to rent a room and I was actually expecting to buy us a cheap car for daily runs. Actually, if their parents could not offer a free house to her and if she relied on me, I would say that she would have made more efforts before asking for the divorce. She’s in this position because she can be independent now.
We have experienced some financial trouble which has contributed for additional stress in our relationship.
She wants me nearby but I don’t know why, possibly because of the kids. Every time I mention that I might leave (just waiting for employer’s permission to work remotely) the area because apartments are very expensive, she seems concerned. I will not spend the rest of my life in a room for sure.
She was not feeling happy with herself prior to the breakup and immediately after. Actually, she looks much happier when we meet, but not that happy when she videocalls me to see the kids. Lately she’s been telling me that she’s made a good decision about the divorce and that she feels relieved.
She has not deleted any photos of us from facebook or Instagram, and we still follow each other as friends, she comments and likes my family posts but not any of my posts. After I have left home, she’s posted those quotes about happiness and moving on alone, etc. for about 3 weeks but she’s stopped doing that now, actually her activity on social media is quite low now.
She makes clear on any platform that she is a mother of 2 kids which indicates she’s not looking for a relationship, unless she’s investing on tinder, etc. but she does not post any provocative photos on social media, BTW she’s attractive! Also, her behavior does not seem to indicate that she’s in a relationship, she just wants to feel free and be by herself with our kids. When she dumped me, she’s actually told me that she does not want any other man in her life, but I honestly don’t believe that. It’s just a matter of time.
Even if she wants, she will have a hard time because she lives at her parents’ despite being a separate house, so her parents will judge her for casual sex, they will only be ok with something serious.
She usually agrees to meet up with me, and she accepts physical contact such as hugs, kiss in the cheek, etc. although she often mentions that she feels uncomfortable, but she ends up accepting it without any bad reactions.
When we meet, she avoids eye contact unless we are having a meal (faced to each other). On longer conversations, she maintains eye contact though, and sometimes she looks at my lips. I must add that she loves my blue eyes.
She has attempted to make me jealous by posting a photo to FB stories of our kids and another guy next to them with his face covered. I have ignored it. A few days later, we were talking on the phone, and she spontaneously told me it was her friend’s son, he’s actually 15 but looks older. Actually, when speak on the phone she opens up, she tells me what she’s been doing without me asking for it, and we usually laugh a lot, it happens spontaneously.
Every time we are together, we are still synced as before, i.e. occasionally we say the same words at the same time.
One time we met to go shopping at primark, and we ended up lunching together. It was fun, we laughed a lot, she’s joked around, she’s clearly connected but I might have gone too far by touching her too much, she didn’t complain though. Whilst driving, I have the habit of putting my right hand onto her left hand but now only for a few seconds just to test the waters, on the first few times she was ok with it, but as I was about dropping her at home, she’s told me she feels uncomfortable, so I’ve stopped doing it.
The last time we met, we were supposed to go for a coffee and then shopping clothes for our kids at the mall. She’s cancelled it the day before possibly to test my reaction and I just said “ok, no problem”, but eventually I saw her at starbucks by coincidence, it was at that precise moment that I was waiting for my drink and I was spotting a free table, I saw her walking outside, 5 seconds earlier or 5 seconds later I would have missed her, she appeared at the precise moment I was looking. I might be over-analyzing, but this feels like a sign?
Anyways, as I run into her, I’ve told her that I don’t want her back unless she improves herself just like I am trying to become a better person, and I’ve said that so she does not feel under pressure, in reality I would like to start a fresh relationship and leave the toxic one behind. I asked if she wanted me to go with her or if she wanted me to go away. She said I could go with her, actually I’ve helped her choosing clothes for our kids and we ended up having a quick lunch. We´ve stayed there for about 3 hours, when she’s left, she’s accepted a hug. 
What really bothers me is the fact that she knew I was going to be in the mall, but she didn't call me. I wonder if the fact that telling her in person that I don't want her back made her change her mind...

VERY IMPORTANT:
A friend of hers told me that she’s divorced me because I haven’t changed in certain “aspects” but she did not specify which ones to her. I suspect the following:

Being needy = loss of attraction
Not doing enough in terms of taking care of the kids and doing the house chores.
Not being financially stable, but I've experienced this before and she didn't leave me because of that.

What my sister thinks:
- She likes you but she’s playing “hard to get” so you chase her and become her puppy so she can have less stress with the kids and house chores whilst you do the hard work. She wants to go back but wants you to boost her ego. Also, she's being selfish because she's got a reburbished house and doesn't need you because she also knows she can survive being on social benefits.

My conclusion after hours of research:

Her heart wants me, but her head doesn’t.
She’s keeping her guards up and avoids meeting up with me because she’s afraid to get attracted to me.
I actually believe that this separation is more good than bad because it made me realize where I’m wrong and where I need to change. But my wife rarely apologizes for her mistakes, and that’s one the reasons that got me angry throughout last year. When I was wrong, I would apologize, but she rarely did. Also she is very good in hiding her feelings, which made me miss some signals which in turn didn’t allow me to change properly.
I am not willing to go back to her unless she changes her atittude towards me as well, I cannot risk being dumped again.


My questions to you guys is:

Do believe there is a chance that she will come back to start a new relationship and dump the old toxic one?
Should I now go silent (well, we have kids, so not completely slient) or keep asking her to meet?


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

You may be seriously overanalyzing your situation. It sounds like there is a distraction in her life that is interfering with her relationship with you.


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

Sfort said:


> You may be seriously overanalyzing your situation. It sounds like there is a distraction in her life that is interfering with her relationship with you.


Such as?


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Jim2105 said:


> Such as?


Oh, I don't know her. Based on her reactions to you, there's possibly another person involved. From an outsider's perspective, it looks like she's struggling to get away from you.


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

Sfort said:


> Oh, I don't know her. Based on her reactions to you, there's possibly another person involved. From an outsider's perspective, it looks like she's struggling to get away from you.


I have considered another person involved. But if there is, she's hiding it very well, it might be a rebound over the phone only for now, but about to get real. Whilst with me, she has always been very loyal, she wouldn't even look at other guys, and physically I am certainly of lower value than she is.
I reckon that if there was another person involved, she would have told her best friend that, unless that person came in after the breakup. But she told her that the reason for the divorce is that I haven't changed enough and she's afraid that we will go back to the same old same every 6 months.
Also, her sister is toxic, she has actually recorded conversations between me and my mother in law. Her sister has always envied my wife because she could never get the marital stability with her partners, she is promiscuous and much less attractive than my wife. Because of that she doesn't like the fact that my wife has been happily married and that our kids have a present father, whilst her sister's son don't have a father because he's in another country and does not care. This is because her sister dumped him 3 months after their son was born, and she's actually escaped Ireland with the kid without him even knowing, also she's tried to commit suicide a few years ago.
My wife is quite influenceable, and her sister may have dragged her towards the divorce so they can be at the same level. However my wife has told me that she doesn't trust her sister.

Another thing to consider is that my best friend (we are actually former military buddies for 20 years) might be an option for her and she's already working on it, because she once told me "you could be more like him" and she's considering poaching him, but he's married, and he's doing ok with his wife. I trust my buddy, he's quite different than me, he usually obeys his partners without much resistance, he does all the house chores and agrees to almost everything, whilst I behave more like an alpha male with women unless I am in a vulnerable/needy situation.
Also, me and my wife have the same height. My buddy is taller than us, and that might be a turn on for her, I don't know.


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Jim, I really hope your intuition is correct, but let's face it. She's pushing for a divorce. She's not doing it because you likes you. A mother does not typically want to break up a happy home by getting a divorce. When another man is in the picture, logic, reason, and common sense go out the window. You're asking for information, so maybe others will chime in with more optimistic information, but I'm telling you my first thoughts on reading your story.


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

Sfort said:


> Jim, I really hope your intuition is correct, but let's face it. She's pushing for a divorce. She's not doing it because you likes you. A mother does not typically want to break up a happy home by getting a divorce. When another man is in the picture, logic, reason, and common sense go out the window. You're asking for information, so maybe others will chime in with more optimistic information, but I'm telling you my first thoughts on reading your story.


I know, and I really appreciate it. If that's the case, do you believe that she's already on this another person at the moment?


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

yrs, there’s another guy/guys involved. 
but why care. She’s made herself clearthat she doesn’t want you and you can’t change her feelings. File for divorce and stop interacting with her. If that doesn’t change her ways, so be it. The more you chase her, the more she runs.


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Jim2105 said:


> I know, and I really appreciate it. If that's the case, do you believe that she's already on this another person at the moment?


I would suggest that there is a strong possibility.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I do not rule out another man, nor do I say there is one.

........................................................................................................................

I think she is done with you and is using any weak excuse for her action.

She may be just an average lady. She does not sound very ambitious.
She wants to be done with you but, cannot be mean about it.

You are the father of her children, not a bad man in her opinion, but no longer a good match for her.
Plus, you are not getting the message.

She is mentally conflicted, for sure. Her own family and friends are likely telling her she may be making a mistake in divorcing you.
She is trying to show others she is trying to work through this but still feels that divorce is her best answer.


She is gone, let her go. 

Once on her own for some time, she may change her mind, but do not count on that.

How old are you, how old is your wife?



_Nemesis-_


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> I do not rule out another man, nor do I say there is one.
> 
> ........................................................................................................................
> 
> ...


I'm 38, she's 36.

UPDATE:

Yesterday I've spent the day my kids, and when I dropped them off at her parents', she was a bit stressed because she was doing dinner for them, but she was already expecting me at that time, not my problem. But she was quite bitter to me.
Then, after I left, she's sent me this big text message to point out that their hair was messy, that they did not eat properly (which is not true), etc. etc.
I have replied back with a short message stating that I would rather speak about this over the phone to explain what's happened and not via text message. I was quite angry with her answer, but I did not giver her what she wanted (i.e. an angry reaction). In spite, I have added that she should really re-consider her attitude and should focus on the positive things and not the negative ones, they've had a brilliant day, they were extremely happy, that's what really matters.

Now the best part:
- She's replied back saying that I should give her some "rest", she didn't want to speak to me over the phone, and at the end she added this: "talking less is more😙"

She does not send me a kiss emoticon for ages, what is she trying to say? Is this good or bad?


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Jim2105 said:


> I'm 38, she's 36.
> 
> UPDATE:
> 
> ...


It sounds to me like she wants a written record of what kind of POS she thinks you are. Be careful.


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

Sfort said:


> It sounds to me like she wants a written record of what kind of POS she thinks you are. Be careful.


POS?


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Jim2105 said:


> POS?


Piece Of <Crap>


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

Sfort said:


> Piece Of <Crap>


OK, but she can still record phone calls, I do. Why would she want a written record if I have agreed with the divorce and I have agreed to giver her the custody of both kids? Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm really confused with her reply.


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Jim2105 said:


> OK, but she can still record phone calls, I do. Why would she want a written record if I have agreed with the divorce and I have agreed to giver her the custody of both kids? Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm really confused with her reply.


I'm simply suggesting that putting things in writing is not always the best idea. Since you and she are recording phone calls, make sure you're doing it legally. I don't know where you're located, but in the US, there are states that require consent of parties to record. Other states only require one. You may not have even have similar laws where you are. In any case, always assume you're being recorded. Anything you say against your own interest can and will be used against you.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Jim2105 said:


> OK, but she can still record phone calls, I do. Why would she want a written record if I have agreed with the divorce and I have agreed to giver her the custody of both kids? Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm really confused with her reply.


Why confused?

She does not want to give you any hope, none.

She is not a nice person at her core.

................................

I get it...

Nobody likes to lose.....at anything, especially, to lose a marriage.

..............................

She is done with you and is frustrated because you don't get the message and won't just leave her alone.
You lost, she lost.

She does not care.....you do.
Stop caring, move onward.

Life continues, regardless of anyone's feelings.

DO NOT _QUESTION_ HER.
DO NOT _CHASE_ HER.

_Question _your present actions, _chase_ after some new dreams.
You have worth....outside and away from her.

Some 70% of marriages in Portugal and Spain end in divorce.
It sounds like she wants to be one of the common crowd.


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> Why confused?
> 
> She does not want to give you any hope, none.
> 
> ...


So basically, the fact that she's said that "talking (on the phone) less is more 😙" actually means "I've had enough, leave me alone".
Please bear in mind that I will still have to meet her in person a few more times due to pending issues.

"Some 70% of marriages in Portugal and Spain end in divorce.
It sounds like she wants to be one of the common crowd."

Yes, and most of her female friends are separated, not divorced but just single. Not a good influence to be honest.


----------



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

I cannot diagnose what your problems are. You need to get into professional counseling. She's told you she doesn't want to be married, and you're mapping the relationship like a military maneuver. It may be that she doesn't like you any more, and she's just now getting courage to uphold her determination to get rid of you. I'm just guessing.


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

Sfort said:


> I cannot diagnose what your problems are. You need to get into professional counseling. She's told you she doesn't want to be married, and you're mapping the relationship like a military maneuver. It may be that she doesn't like you any more, and she's just now getting courage to uphold her determination to get rid of you. I'm just guessing.


Yes, I probably do need professional counseling. I am considering that. 
What really intrigues me are her attempts to make me jealous on social media and some other signs that she displays that indicate that she's got feelings for me, although she has not been very active on social media lately, no posts, no stories from her side, but she sees my stories. Also, she has not deleted any of our photos together. My female friends told me that she's just trying to be "free" for some time until she is faced with the reality of not having someone.On the day she broke up she's told me that our fights were affecting the kids and that she's afraid it will have an impact on them in the long term, and that's why she does not want to be with me. So I was expecting that if had displayed changes, she would come back. I have told her that I might have to move away and my kids will certainly be affected by that, I think it will be much worse for them than if we had stayed together.
Ok, she might be speaking to someone at the moment, but I know it won't last, she's the sort of person what wants stability, I think I'll just have to let her taste the loss. I admit it was not a perfect marriage for the last 12 months, but we were just going through a bad time because of the pandemic and all house refurbishment limitations, she does not see that. We've both made mistakes, I took her for granted, but I still think that things are fixable, there was no violence nor nasty words, this separation is really the wake up call.

But well, I'll just have to improve myself and move on.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Jim2105 said:


> So basically, the fact that she's said that "talking (on the phone) less is more 😙" actually means "I've had enough, leave me alone".
> Please bear in mind that I will still have to meet her in person a few more times due to pending issues.
> 
> "Some 70% of marriages in Portugal and Spain end in divorce.
> ...


Her friends are separated, not divorced, but single.

I believe Portugal requires being separated for one year to end a marriage.

Exceptions, to that would be no children, no alimony, no real property and both agreeing.
If that is the case a marriage can end within weeks.

There may be financial advantages to remaining separated, but still married.

You might know more about this.

I would think: tax breaks, maybe health insurance, better credit rating, maybe for appearances sake?
Or, maybe divorces are too expensive?
I do not know what the divorce situation is there.

Any way....

Good Luck, enjoy your new life.


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> Her friends are separated, not divorced, but single.
> 
> I believe Portugal requires being separated for one year to end a marriage.
> 
> ...


When I say "separated" it means they've been together with some guy, had kids but then broke up without all the bureaucratic thing. Me and my wife have a lot of pending issues such as debts. And yes, divorce is expensive, it's really a lose-lose situation, we will both struggle financially, but I'm in a slightly better position because I am skilled and she's not.
Like I said, she's only divorcing because she can be independent now. But she will always be dependent on her parents, I suspect that she and her sister are already making long term plans because they will inherit a large property.


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

Sfort said:


> It sounds to me like she wants a written record of what kind of POS she thinks you are. Be careful.


UPDATE
Well, it is certainly not that. She rang me today about a pending issue, and we ended up speaking for over 1 hour about multiple things (some are actually intimate) and some old good times we had together, we both laughed actually, she's becoming "softer" not only on the phone but also on her text messages, she's including more kiss emoticons, in a way she looks more open to speak to me but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Jim2105 (May 21, 2021)

MEGA UPDATE
Ok, so now I know she's definitely *not* dating nor trying anyone else.
I've told her again that I don't her back unless she changes (she's asked me what she would need to change in order for me to accept her back) and it would be ok for us to go out just for fun and she's started to lower her guard. Actually we went out as a family of 4 yesterday (she wouldn't accept it before), and we had a great time all together, we took selfies, etc. I actually stayed with her until about 10pm but we only talked with a bit of flirting involved. 
She plays a bit "hard to get" when I ask her to go out for for a coffee or lunch but she ends up accepting it. Also, when she speaks to me over the phone she opens up about private subjects such as medical issues. 

This is what gets me confused...


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

How old are you two? This sounds a bit menopausal. Had this a few times in my practice. One just hoofed him out. No explanation. He tried valiantly, 30 years was a long time to turn on a dime. He got a little apartment. Called every day. She liked him coming over to dinner, and doing little projects. After six months she seemed intransigent. Soon, he stopped coming over. The calls began waning. She noticed. Finally, she asked. He said that he could not understand what had happened, he went to therapy, and it still did not make sense. He concluded that they were over, and he wanted companionship and love for his golden years. He said that he dreamed of them, but she had derailed that. He told her he joined a dating site. He said that it broke his heart, but he had needs as well. 

THE DAM BURST. She admitted that she had been in therapy trying to figure herself out. That she did not know. She did a complete 180. She never expected him to start dating. She had an unrealistic expectation that he would wait. He told her that he was not going to do that, plus she had hurt him. Then and there she asked him back. She told him she could not lose him. His words: You put me through this and suddenly soon as I start living my life, suddenly you want me back? Tell you what, you can date me. Maybe I will want you back, and maybe I will find someone else. 

You have never seen a transformation. Now she was the one trying to fix things. She got old real fast. Lost 20 she should not have. Took to dressing provocatively when he saw her. Took to begging, even had her therapist invite him to a session. She lost him. Ten months after she separated, she found herself alone with a divorce filing and her ex dating a new woman. She chalks it up to menopause and mental defect. She holds out hope that he may one day forgive her.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Go online and look over the phone bill. At least rule that out. It’s a quick 10 minute check.

Talk/words don’t mean a thing. Her actions tell you everything. Stop looking for signs and over analyzing every little thing. Go your own way.

If you chase they always move farther away.


----------



## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

She’s been trying to see someone else.

When it cools off with the other person - she pays attention to you - don’t be her backup plan - she doesn’t want to be with you.

You should NEVER need to beg someone to be with you!!! 

Don’t pay any attention to her. Spend time finding someone that makes you their top priority!


----------

