# Should we just eliminate gender categories in sports?



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/28/sports/international/dutee-chand-female-sprinter-with-high-male-hormone-level-wins-right-to-compete.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

So here we have a situation where true gender blind equality for women would be disastrous, but having standards for separating the sexes can't handle the edge cases very well.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Penalty on the 9 yard line as BOTH Janice Smith and Martha White who are now 8 months pregnant used their excessive hormones to plow through the offense and sack the quarter back simultaneously. NFL rules regulate that a quarterback may only be sacked by ONE female defensive pregnant player as anything otherwise is unnecessary roughness.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

These issues in athletics have been an unexpected huge assistance in helping people to understand that gender is not binary. 

My guess is that in the near future, there will be a new category for people to compete in, by their choice, a non-gender-specific category. And I predict that category will be the one people want to follow because it will be more interesting.

For example, the average male gymnast will never be able to compete against the average female gymnast on the balance beam because her smaller size will always be an advantage that greater strength cannot overcome.

But there are male gymnasts who train on balance beam anyway, and I seriously want to see them be able to compete at it.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

To answer your question: No we should not. In response to the referenced article, I think the decision made was the correct one in the case of Chand.

Society has never handled the “edge cases” very well. Often, in the case of the Olympics, I think the “true gender” of athletes is questioned in an effort to eliminate unwanted competition. Remember the German women’s swim team of 2012?

As a girl/woman I played in boy’s little league, boy’s high school baseball, men’s division I college baseball and men’s minor league baseball, continuously from age 7 until age 28. I was recruited for the college and minor league levels because I could pitch a wicked curve-ball and had a high batting average. My testosterone levels have never been called into question.

There are women who are naturally exceptional at specific sports and, a small number of those have abilities equivalent to men in the same sport. It depends on the type of sport and the individuals involved.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> But there are male gymnasts who train on balance beam anyway, and I seriously want to see them be able to compete at it.


Not me. The first time a guy lands on that balance beam the way I see those teenage girls do it, I think I'd wind up with a case of sympathetic eunuchism. 

You might be right, but this woman certainly isn't a good example. As a sprinter, even a top notch female, she just has no chance against Usain Bolt. I don't think it would make very compelling sport. In most cases, gender blindness in sport would probably not be a good idea if the goal (does sporting have a goal?) is to have as many women participating as possible.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

But you are assuming who would and would not voluntarily compete in the non gender specific category. We have to wait and see who self selects to be in it, and then see how those athletes line up against each other.

It would not be the same as putting high testosterone females into the men's category.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

The reality is that the world is going to have to get used to the idea that gender is fluid. Sports is a great way to introduce that fact to the average person.

We will in the future see many trans, intersex, and non gendered people competing in sports, and two categories, men's or women's, is not encompassing enough to allow for all those athletes. And I don't just mean the edge cases. There will be thousands of athletes like this eventually.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Women can pick up a rifle and shoot at a male enemy and vice versa. That would arguably be the ultimate competition. Who we allow to pick up a football seems like kind of a silly argument after that.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> But you are assuming who would and would not voluntarily compete in the non gender specific category. We have to wait and see who self selects to be in it, and then see how those athletes line up against each other.
> 
> It would not be the same as putting high testosterone females into the men's category.


Well, I'm assuming that we don't invent any new sports, and the list of those where putting women and men together and expecting quality competition is limited. 

Here's the Olympic sports. I've bolded the one that I think might qualify, and even some of them are questionable. The obvious problem is that not too many of these sports attract much of an audience, at least in this country, but once every four years. 

*Archery*
Badminton
Basketball
Beach Volleyball
Boxing
Canoe Slalom
Canoe Sprint
*Cycling BMX*
Cycling Mountain Bike
Cycling Road
Cycling Track
*Diving*
*Equestrian / Dressage*
*Equestrian / Eventing*
*Equestrian / Jumping*
*Fencing*
Football
Golf
*Gymnastics Artistic*
*Gymnastics Rhythmic*
Handball
Hockey
Judo
Modern Pentathlon
Rowing
Rugby
*Sailing*
*Shooting*
Swimming
*Synchronized Swimming*
Table Tennis
Taekwondo
Tennis
*Trampoline*
Triathlon
Volleyball
Water Polo
Weightlifting
Wrestling Freestyle
Wrestling Greco-Roman
*Figure skating *
Speed skating 
Short track speed skating 
Ice hockey 
*Curling*
Cross-country skiing 
Alpine skiing 
*Ski jumping*
Nordic combined 
*Freestyle skiing*
*Snowboarding *
Biathlon 
Luge 
Bobsleigh 
Skeleton


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm not saying we'd invent new sports...we would invent a new, non gender specific category for all sports.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I don't find this that politically defining. Gender fluidity is not going to be defined on the sports field. In fact all we have here is an unusual hormone profile, no more unusual than my own. 
MN


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It isn't about politics, it is about biology and gender fluidity....and yes, it IS being defined on the sports field, as well as other places in the world where humans meet, mate, compete, and comingle. Did you not read the article, or many of the other cases that are coming up as a result of the world shifting to understand gender better? From the article:

"The I.A.A.F. said in a statement that it would meet with its experts and the International Olympic Committee to determine its course of action.

“Although athletics events are divided into discrete male and female categories, *sex in humans is not simply binary*,” the panel added. “As it was put during the hearing: ‘nature is not neat.’ *There is no single determinant of sex*.”


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I did read the article, or at least a great deal of it. If there is no single determinant of sex, therefore, there is no conclusive determinant of sex, Therefore there is no sex. Close the forum we're done.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> I did read the article, or at least a great deal of it. If there is no single determinant of sex, therefore, there is no conclusive determinant of sex, Therefore there is no sex. Close the forum we're done.


I know it seems scary not to have a specified gender name to cling to...but don't panic. You can still call yourself a man.

That's the good news. We get to self-identify. So feel free to identify as a "Big, Badass Manly Man" if you want, and some people will continue to identify as "Girly/Feminine Women" (I am one of those, by the way).

But there's also good news for others who are on other parts of the spectrum of gender, who will no longer have to be forced into a gender box labeled by other people. They can self-identify as they choose now.

And regardless if we just choose to identify differently than what the world would label us, there is science here to back up the evidence that gender is NOT binary. For some people, their gender is literally unisex, and they were born this way....and they are proud to be this way and will not conform to some kind of fake label put upon them by others.

So even though the world is changing to understand these new biological facts ("new" as in, science is just now accepting what was always true), there will still always be the option to identify as the gender the world also sees you as.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

The more common definition of gender fluidity is the people who don't remain the same gender from day to day. One day they feel masculine another they feel feminine. and now of course they are alowed to choose which one they are (politically) The only remaining problem is where they pee.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> The more common definition of gender fluidity is the people who don't remain the same gender from day to day. One day they feel masculine another they feel feminine. and now of course they are alowed to choose which one they are (politically) The only remaining problem is where they pee.


That is not what I meant by gender fluidity. What you are talking about is one way that an individual may feel or express their gender identity, ie: they may call themselves Gender Fluid instead of male, female, or trans.

But it turns out that gender is fluid for all of us, on a biological level, and that when we drill down deeper into this topic in the sciences, we can't find a division line between male and female. Gender fluidity or gender spectrum describes this biological fact.

It is not just about identity (though for some it is only about identity)...it is also about biology and the amazing reality we live in which is not so black and white, male and female as we once thought.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Its a very interesting issue. It adds to the issue of competitors with various prosthetic limbs -some of which allow faster than natural running speeds.

One can take the approach that women would not be able to compete at a high level in some sports like weightlifting. OTOH *I* could not compete at a high level in weightlifting - is my wimpy genetics somehow fundamentally different from someone not being able to compete based on their gender?

As I said, interesting. It deserves careful thought, not a lot of shouting. I think the answers are not at all obvious.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Some people said a girl couldn't compete in a race because she had an unusual homone level. Some other people said she could. The people with the biggest wigs won. Now the whole world will realize that there are no males or females and everyone is somewhat male and female or neither. And the world is better because of this?

My conclusion is that I should have bought a bigger wig.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> Some people said a girl couldn't compete in a race because she had an unusual homone level. Some other people said she could. The people with the biggest wigs won. Now the whole world will realize that there are no males or females and everyone is somewhat male and female or neither. And the world is better because of this?
> 
> My conclusion is that I should have bought a bigger wig.


Not sure if you are being funny, or if you really just don't get it.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife,
Why don't we just say that sometimes, smart as you are, you just don't know everything. You walked into the guys house, hijacked a thread about sports and tried to make a referees decision some sort of triumph for people of less that straightforward gender. 99.9% of people with less than straightforward gender shun sports, because this kind or ruleing has to be made in the first place. This is not the stage they will choose to play out this drama. 

So No, I just don't get it. I disagree that this decision in any way paves the way for more gender blind sporting. I disagree that the gender disinfrachised will be flocking to arenas to compete in the sports that have no meaning to them. This flash in the pan will not light the way to a brighter future. The evidence is right there in the article. Who were the people trying to keep her from competing? Female athletes!
MN


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

badsanta said:


> Penalty on the 9 yard line as BOTH Janice Smith and Martha White who are now 8 months pregnant used their excessive hormones to plow through the offense and sack the quarter back simultaneously. NFL rules regulate that a quarterback may only be sacked by ONE female defensive pregnant player as anything otherwise is unnecessary roughness.


lol!

:rofl:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

IDK, to me if you have a penis you compete in mens sports, you have a vagina you compete in womens sports. As far as Jenner or Serena Williams, IDK since those are special cases


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> Faithful Wife,
> Why don't we just say that sometimes, smart as you are, you just don't know everything. You walked into the guys house, *hijacked a thread about sports* and tried to make a referees decision some sort of triumph for people of less that straightforward gender. 99.9% of people with less than straightforward gender shun sports, because this kind or ruleing has to be made in the first place. This is not the stage they will choose to play out this drama.
> 
> So No, I just don't get it. I disagree that this decision in any way paves the way for more gender blind sporting. I disagree that the gender disinfrachised will be flocking to arenas to compete in the sports that have no meaning to them. This flash in the pan will not light the way to a brighter future. The evidence is right there in the article. Who were the people trying to keep her from competing? Female athletes!
> MN


Um....the title of the thread is literally "should we just eliminate gender categories in sports". It is not about "sports" alone.

I was and am on topic here....and I am totally confused at your accusation that I am not. I suggested that in the future they will have a non-gender specific category in some sports, again, not off topic at all. The TITLE and TOPIC is about gender categories in sports, ffs.

But I see that you don't get this and would rather consider my input as irrelevant, because....?? I guess "just because".


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
If sports were just fun, this wouldn't be a big deal. The problem is that there is so much money involved that some people might feel pressured to change their gender identity in order to be successful. 

I don't see a good answer.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Arizona Cardinals to make Jen Welter 1st female coach in NFL history

Arizona Cardinals to make Jen Welter 1st female coach in NFL history - ABC15 Arizona

Jen Welter introduced as first female NFL coach


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

There is already a sport that is gender mixed. 
I just can't figure out why it doesn't get more TV coverage in the Olympics??????


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

and deprive the world of the non stop entertainment from shrieks and cries about Title IX?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Impossible. 

There are 9 men on a baseball field, and 11 men on a football field. It cannot exist otherwise.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

EllisRedding said:


> IDK, to me if you have a penis you compete in mens sports, you have a vagina you compete in womens sports. As far as Jenner or Serena Williams, IDK since those are special cases


I personally have no difficulty categorizing gender chromosomally... it's pretty much binary with some very rare interbinary permutations.

Now as for gender identity, I do agree it can be fluid.

For some sports, the segregation is pointless and unnecessary - if a woman is good enough to compete with the men in a particular sport we would all be dumb for not letting her, but is it vice versa? The problem is most games have been tailored to match the traits of masculinity in traditional men's events (wrestling, weightlifting), and femininity in traditional women's events (gymnastics, synchro swimming).

My concern is how much will these sports have to change in order to make accommodations and what kinds of new and exotic claims of discrimination will there be if they don't adapt to suit? Will some sports that are predominantly participated in by one gender or the other simply be abandoned and we end up with the 2030 world androgynous games? featuring fencing, shooting and slow pitch.

If we did away with gender classification, and men and women competed in the same events, then there are thousands of current athletes that would be out of a profession. The current composition of olympic sports tends to favour masculine traits, so would they need to be replaced with more gender neutral events? And would people even bother tuning in to watch or buy tickets for these events?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Except of course for all the events where women would get their asses kicked.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Lon said:


> Will some sports that are predominantly participated in by one gender or the other simply be abandoned and we end up with the 2030 world androgynous games?



No more football . 

I like to watch men hit each other is that wrong?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> No more football .
> 
> I like to watch men hit each other is that wrong?


clearly yes. However as long as men aren't allowed to play in the lingerie football league I'm ok with you watching men in tights collide.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

"Should we eliminate gender categories in sports?" 

No...no we shouldn't. There are always going to be outliers like the woman in the article. All we have to do is ensure that her test levels are naturally occurring. 

Personally, I enjoy the women's side of some sports better than the men's. Tennis, soccer, swimming, volleyball etc. 

I'm with Lon, as I remember we all start as XX and if you happen to have a particular gene present it sends you toward XY. So with very rare exception all you have to do is look down and you know which locker room you belong in. If you still have issues well then you have issues. IMO.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Shoto1984 said:


> ...
> Personally, I enjoy the women's side of some sports better than the men's. Tennis, soccer, swimming, volleyball etc.


I know, and I was sad to think of doing away with gender categories because even in those sports men predominantly have higher "capability" (serve harder, swim faster, kick more powerfully, spike the ball much harder), so if the women had to compete directly against the men there would be hardly any women at the top level of those particular sports



> ...
> I'm with Lon, as I remember we all start as XX and if you happen to have a particular gene present it sends you toward XY. So with very rare exception all you have to do is look down and you know which locker room you belong in. If you still have issues well then you have issues. IMO.


note I also said that I agree gender "identity" is fluid, so I don't believe which locker room you should pick is so cut and dry.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Lon said:


> so I don't believe which locker room you should pick is so cut and dry.


Ok on this we will disagree...


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