# Sexless marriage - same old story



## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

Hi

I promised my wife I wouldn't speak out of our relationship, but I need help! I feel like I am losing my mind!!

*Brief Intro*
Briefly; Been married for 12 years. I got married as a virgin, my wife had 2 partners (that she told me about). We have 2 kids.

Before we got married, she used to tell me about how much fun sex was, all the things she used to do with her exes and how experimental they were. She has told me about their penis sizes and shapes.

While we were still dating, she used to tell me how her and her most recent ex were often so horny, they "just wanted to screw each others' brains out". How much fun they had, she even had sex with him while she was menstruating.

Of course, while dating them, she kept herself fit, thin and healthy. After we got married, we moved in and while unpacking her stuff for her, I saw some really sexy lingerie - that she wore for the others. She refuses to wear anything like that with me.

About a month after we started dating, she called up her ex and had sex with him - SHE initiated it.

*Marriage*

We got married, sex was bad and infrequent. She used to blame me. Years down the line, we now have sex (if I'm lucky), once every 2 months. When we do have sex, she would just lie there and wait for me to get it over with. I've tried everything, reading sex technique books, relationship advice, getting better jobs, doing much housework, kids etc. She's always had, excuses for not wanting sex.

Excuses ranging from (but not limited to) her being tired [but she has enough time to play computer games until 1am], me being dirty, too clean, not enjoying kissing, me not having rhythm, being uncomfortable, sex being messy, her just not liking sex anymore to her past abuse by her brother - you name it!!!

3 nights ago, she said she thinks she has endometriosis. Said her mom had it. Said that since the beginning, sex with me was painful. Said her ex had a much smaller penis than me, that's why she could enjoy it more.
The excuses she has come up with are more creative every day!

I cook, clean (I clean MOST of the house while she plays on her laptop). I have taken a better job with longer hours and more pay, so that she can work half-days. Everything you can suggest from romancing, giving her space, helping [and doing most work] around the house, reading and trying sexual techniques - I have tried them ALL!!

The realisation is basically, her and I will never have sex again. I'm gutted. I'm 33, have a VERY strong sex drive and now this.

I want to support my wife and be there for her. I make NO demands of her, not even sex. I know and realise she obviously hates sex (with me anyway) and after a lifetime of rejection, I cannot ask to be aroused anymore.

I so desperately wanted a fun, passionate, spontaneous sex life with the wife I love. She used to OPENLY (WITHOUT me asking), brag about her exciting sex life before me with various partners and how much fun she had. 

For the past 6 or so years, I've regularly asked for us to go to marriage counseling. She isn't interested. She doesn't even read a relationship book we discussed and bought. Not going to doctor either for the supposed endometriosis. She weighs 310lbs now (weighed around 140lbs for her exes).

2 years ago, I asked for a divorce - NOT because of another woman. But because I couldn't take this loveless, one sided marriage anymore. I then repented and decided to work on our relationship. But it feels/seems as if much/most comes from my side. This is AFTER she blatantly told a friend in my presence that she was never in love with me and that I merely filled 3 check box criteria.

I am devastated. I don't know what to do or where to turn. I feel as if she has betrayed her marriage vows. She has explicitly told me to masturbate instead of bothering her for sex.

As for advice; divorce is not an option, neither is stuff like prostitutes or "open relationship".

In order to reduce my libido, I'm considering getting a voluntary chemical or surgical castration. What is the policy for this in the UK? are there natural things I can take that will completely remove my libido? What can I do?

This isn't being a martyr. I made a promise to her and God (yes, I am a Christian - hence divorce not being an option). I need a way for me to get my thoughts AWAY from ANY for of sex or sexuality. But my heart is so broken at the cold rejection...


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

1. Maybe she lied about her past? 
2. What kind of gf tells her VIRGIN bf about her sexual past like that  I mean, who just shares that? Kinda rude, imo.
3. You're not that good in bed and she doesn't know how to tell you. sorry if that stung  just trying to see how she feels if she was so sexual beforehand.


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## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

that_girl said:


> 1. Maybe she lied about her past?
> 2. What kind of gf tells her VIRGIN bf about her sexual past like that  I mean, who just shares that? Kinda rude, imo.
> 3. You're not that good in bed and she doesn't know how to tell you. sorry if that stung  just trying to see how she feels if she was so sexual beforehand.


Don't see how she lied - there was ample evidence of her sex life...

I agree that I might just not be that good in bed. But I thought that a couple should work on these things - together? 

Besides, I have read a LOT about sex, karma sutra etc. I am great at performing a Yoni Massage and can make her orgasm twice in a row. I don't think I am THAT bad in bed...


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## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Why is divorce not an option?



1. I made a promise - I have my honour
2. I have children, it will devastate them


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## drmmommy (Apr 16, 2012)

Get an inflatable kiddie pool, dump in one whole bottle of baby oil. Best sex ever! And maybe instead of just reading about sexual techniques, how about discussing what makes her feel good in bed? Every woman is different. Btw, I give you a lot of credit for hanging in there because of your wedding vows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

drmmommy said:


> Get an inflatable kiddie pool, dump in one whole bottle of baby oil. Best sex ever! And maybe instead of just reading about sexual techniques, how about discussing what makes her feel good in bed? Every woman is different. Btw, I give you a lot of credit for hanging in there because of your wedding vows.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've discussed it with her - NUMEROUS times! Her reply (as always) is "Nothing kinky", just do the normal...


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

she dosen't respect you start holding her accountable.

why do you do all the chores?

start snooping.


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## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> she dosen't respect you start holding her accountable.
> 
> why do you do all the chores?
> 
> start snooping.


I do most chores. She helps. I feel sorry for her being tired. 

Snooping? She's here all the time - on her sofa under a blanket

I realise she doesn't respect me. She even said so recently. Said she has always thought of herself as being better than me. 

Maybe, my new longer hours away from home and picking up my martial arts classes again will make me more of a "commodity" because I will be away from home more


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

To be honest, I had a strong sense that you were the good guy she married after she sowed her oats - before I read your comment that she married you for meeting those three criteria.

So, she clearly is not attracted to you (and never was). Beyond that, she does not even respect you.

The usual advice (you don't have any leverage if you refuse to divorce) applies here.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

To be honest, I had a strong sense that you were the good guy she married after she sowed her oats - before I read your comment that she married you for meeting those three criteria.

So, she clearly is not attracted to you (and never was). Beyond that, she does not even respect you.

The usual advice (you don't have any leverage if you refuse to divorce) applies here.

But why are you feeling sorry for someone who treats you so badly? You need to break that habit and carry _yourself_ like you deserve better before expecting anything from her.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

I agree that it appears she does not respect you and has lost any attraction for you. You're a "nice guy". Stop being the nice guy. Stop being her doormat. She's seems to be getting everything she wants in this marriage, and is completely comfortable not giving you what you want. It's time to make her believe you'll walk. You don't have to say it, just "be" it.

Start improving yourself. Lose the gut. Run. Get activities outside of the house once or twice a week that don't include her. Dress better (if you don't dress nice now). Keep up on the grooming. Don't tell her why you're doing this other than you want to improve yourself and have just the tiniest bit of a life of your own.

Stop being her freakin' maid and butler. You know, all those things are fine....cooking, cleaning, etc., but not when she does not appreciate them and takes them for granted. Stop it. Make her get off her dead butt and out from behind the games on her computer screen.

It sounds to me like if she isn't cheating on you, she could be headed that direction. Or she'll just leave you before she does. I'm not disparaging your wife, but it's a fact someone wants to be with someone they are attracted to. Start doing some research on THAT, and what attracts women.

I used to be you years ago. Thought being the "nice guy" was the way to go. Could not, for the life of me, figure out why my relationships ended badly, why we stopped having sex, etc. Later in life I decided I'd had enough of "women's crap" and was not going to put up with it. I did a few things...took care of myself and found a life. And I stopped acting contrary to how I felt. If I was upset with something they did, I let them know. If I was unhappy with a circumstance or situation, I let them know. (We're talking serious things here that bothered me, not the coffee cup on the counter or cap off the toothpaste stuff). I simply stopped letting someone treat me badly and brushing it off as okay. And if it got to be too much, I was ready to walk away, and they knew it. I will not live like that again. We'll either have a loving, caring, honest, reciprocal and open relationship, or I will move on to the next one.

This made a huge difference for me. I wasn't acting, I was just being myself and not letting frustrations fester into resentment and anger.

I've had few problems since. Sure, they're still there, but much fewer problems.

She's not respecting you, and that is NOT okay. But, you can't demand it, you have to EARN it. 

Please man, do yourself a favor before it's too late with your wife (if it already isn't). Start reading up on attraction and what attracts women. A guy who takes their crap, and follows it up by cooking for them, cleaning for them, and begging for sex is simply NOT IT. It's the whole "nice guy" thing. You're the nice stable guy, but she wants the "bad boy". Now, you don't want to be that, but somewhere in the middle there is what I call the "good guy". Not a "nice guy doormat" type, and not the loser, can't be reigned in or controlled "bad boy". Find a nice balance between the two.

Get yourself in shape. Treat it as though you're preparing for a new life without her, because you may very well be. Then maybe, if you truly love her and you're lucky, she'll start to re-gain attraction for you. And who knows, once she sees this, maybe she'll get off her dead butt and out from behind the computer and better herself in order to keep you.

Listen to yourself...."voluntary castration"?!!!! Dude, I understand you love her, but really? For someone that doesn't love you back?


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Stop doing so much for her and being so understanding! She is abusing you and she is failing to live up to her side of the marriage bargain. She has a duty to sort this out or end the marriage. 

You need to be in a place where she knows that you can live without her. She needs to know what is at stake here.

As for the 'promise not to talk outside of the marriage' bs, that is typical of an abuser. Wake up. Don't take this any more.

Christians can get divorced and do all the time. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to accept being a pathetic, helpless domestic slave to an abusive woman.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Really is there anything to say. How pathetic & sad. You give her orgasms, thus you are doing something okay.

At the end of the day the two scariest words creeped in yet again explaining why there are few answers: Virgin & Christian

All I can say is take control of your life.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Based on everything you wrote, why would she have sex with you?

She's got you completely dominated in life. She can say whatever she wants, she can do whatever she wants, she can eat whatever she wants.... and in response you work more hours, do more housework and are considering castrating yourself.

She is probably the happiest person on earth with this arrangement. I seriously doubt she has any motivation to change.

What you have to do is turn things around such that she only attains happiness and satisfaction in life when she is sexual with her man.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi iGuy ~

You might want to take the following assessment:

No More Mr. Nice Guy! - Take the No More Mr. Nice Guy! Self-Assessment

If you score high, this might be a good read for you:

http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

See if it resonates with you...there's also a support forum if you fit the 'nice guy' category at the same place the assessment was.

YOU can rewrite that same old story, if you choose to. It just takes a conscious decision from you everyday to re-frame the 'words' of your story in a way that matches up with what you truly want.

Best wishes.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

As the others have said, you have to find some self-respect. Your wife won't respect you until you respect yourself.

Your wife has told you that she wants to live as roommates. So take her at her word and treat her like a roommate. Stop doing anything for her. Stop giving her orgasms. Stop doing her chores. Stop giving her money. Deposit your paycheck in a personal account that she doesn't have access to.

Stop putting more effort into meeting her needs than she puts into meeting yours. Get out with your kids and do fun things, without her. You can stay married to your wife and act like a single dad. Run the 180 on her.

It's very possible that doing this will give one of the following results. Either she notices that you have become more assertive and becomes more attracted to you, or she notices that her gravy train has been derailed and she needs to move on to another chump. It's unlikely that she will move on because the number of men willing to support a lazy, unproductive, sexless, morbidly obese woman is very small.

Also, by doing things for yourself, you will become happier. You may not have sex. But at least you won't be jumping through hoops anymore.

Good luck.

The Healing Heart: The 180


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> As the others have said, you have to find some self-respect. Your wife won't respect you until you respect yourself.
> 
> Your wife has told you that she wants to live as roommates. So take her at her word and treat her like a roommate. Stop doing anything for her. Stop giving her orgasms. Stop doing her chores. Stop giving her money. Deposit your paycheck in a personal account that she doesn't have access to.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

One important part of this is being crystal clear about why you are doing it. Don't pout, yell, be passive agressive, or childish. Just be calm and clear that because she is not interested in working to meet your needs, you are focusing on yourself and don't have time to focus on her. You need to make sure that your words and your actions are aligned.


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## NeverAgain12 (Jan 15, 2012)

dude - what they said. Not that looks are everything, but where does a 310 lb woman get off saying that she's better than you?

Do the 180 and treat her like she doesn't deserve you - because she doesn't.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

> One important part of this is being crystal clear about why you are doing it. Don't pout, yell, be passive agressive, or childish. Just be calm and clear that because she is not interested in working to meet your needs, you are focusing on yourself and don't have time to focus on her. You need to make sure that your words and your actions are aligned.


This :iagree:

This is NOT a game you'll be playing. You need to take REAL steps to make yourself happy. You can't just "try it out" and then back off. You can't bluff your way through this. You need to BE "this". 

Pal, I've lived it. And every single time I acted contrary to how I felt (I mean over time, I do not "call" someone over every little stupid thing), I got nailed. 

Several years ago, I decided to be this way. At first, I was worried I was "being a prikk", and not being overly nice to these great women would drive them away. But I bluffed my way through...at first. Then I met a woman who I got along with incredibly well, and who was very attractive. All was great. I was "standing my ground" and the relationship was going swimingly. Until I started to lose my spine. First, one small thing. I kept my mouth shut. Long story short, I morphed right back into the "nice guy" I tried to leave behind. Not only did it not keep this woman for me, I hated every minute we were apart because I could not trust her, she did not respect me, and was treating me like a doormat. Right back to being a puzzy. And it got me NOWHERE. Fortunately I found my balls and walked away when I found out she had gone out on a date with someone else. It was tough, but I walked away and did not look back at that point.

Months later, after dating quite a few people, I met my wife. Prettier than the other one, and we also got along great. The difference? She "chit tested" me. And I NEVER took it. I also never got overly mad, yelled, broke anything, or have I ever called her a single name. I just calmly and sternly told her I was not going to accept that kind of behavior. Well, there are no more "chit tests", and we have the best relationship I've had in my life. I'm in bliss when she's with me, and also when she's not. It is such a wonderful feeling of calm. She respects me, and I respect her. She's attracted to me, and I'm attracted to her.

I will NEVER go back to being the "nice guy". I treat her extraordinarily well, BUT, she has earned that by treating me extraordinarily well. If / when she stops, I will stop. I certainly won't be kissing her butt hoping to make her like me because I'm a "nice guy". She'll like me because I treat her well, she treats me well, and we have mutual respect and appreciation. That is just not possible if you're a doormat and she does not respect you. And if she doesn't respect you, she cannot find you attractive and sexy.

So, work on yourself. Screw her. Don't tell her what you're doing, JUST DO IT. And in 6 months or a year down the line when you've got your crap together and she's still playing solitaire on the computer and eating bon-bons, she can then sit back and know (which I already suspects she does by trying to keep you down with the "you're not good enough for me crap") that she's not nearly good enough for you. 

MOVE ON from where you are. She can come with you if she gets it together, or you can do so on your own. But you do need to move on (or forward) from where you are. Your choice to start it, and her choice on if she'll follow your lead or get left behind. She WANTS and NEEDS you to lead. And if she doesn't, someone else will, and my bet is by the time you've worked on yourself and gotten some damn confidence, this new person won't be a 310 pound sexless unappreciative manipulator. 

Do some reading. "Why nice guys suck". Plenty of google material there. It's human nature. Understand it, be good to yourself, and everything else should fall in line.

Best of luck. You don't need to lose the pair (castration) your wife carries in her purse, you need to take them back.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> :iagree:
> 
> One important part of this is being crystal clear about why you are doing it. Don't pout, yell, be passive agressive, or childish. Just be calm and clear that because she is not interested in working to meet your needs, you are focusing on yourself and don't have time to focus on her. You need to make sure that your words and your actions are aligned.


I agree completely. One other thing too you'll find as you focus on yourself you'll feel like your regaining your sanity, your masculinity, and confidence. All of that will do wonders for you, and that's what I wanted to emphasize: do the 180 for you, for your health.

In the end if she comes around that's an extra perk, but the goal is you. She's hurt you deeply and you need time to recover, so put your mind and body where it needs to be to heal.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

donny64 said:


> This :iagree:
> 
> This is NOT a game you'll be playing. You need to take REAL steps to make yourself happy. You can't just "try it out" and then back off. You can't bluff your way through this. You need to BE "this".
> 
> ...


iGuy - read, reread and reread again. This is gold.:smthumbup:


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## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

Hi

Thank you for the replies. Been a CRAZY week. There has been some great comments/advice posted here. I will read and absorb it. Thank you so much for your input thus far


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

I doubt that your story of your sexless marriage is the same old story unless the norm is:
a parnter who while dating you went on and on about how much they liked sex with others
a partner who cheated while dating with a someone they enjoyed sex with
a partner they had bad and infrequent sex with from the get go

If most sexless marriages began that way then it's not surprising that the marriage is sexless as it seems the partner had no to low sexual desire for the other, showed lacking sexual loyalty, before the marriage, and from the get go of the marriage had bad and infrequent sex leading to lying there just waiting for the other to get it over with.

It seems as if you married a person who had glaring warning signs that they didn't desire you near the desire you had for them, wasn't sexual loyal to you, and didn't enjoy sex with you.

To me your marriage isn't sexless because you're a nice guy, understanding, not holding her accountable, or etc. It's because you married a partner who didn't love you or desired to have sex with you.

Likely:
You wanted the relationship because you wanted her.
She wanted the relationship because you were there and fit the criteria- you're interchangeable object not a human being.

You said you tried it all-
When the sex was bad and infrequent did you try to communicate with her as to how you both could enjoy it?

When she would just lies there and wait for you to get it over with did you ask why she does so?

When she would make excuses for not wanting sex did you ask why don't want to have sex with me in general rather than this insistence?

Had you done so most likely you would have seen the 'she doesn't love you' or at least the 'she doesn't desire you' lightbulb.

Seems more like you tried it all following the advice of others rather than hearing what she had to say or wanted. To me had you actually honestly evaulated your relationship you may have seen quite sooner she never loved you or desired you.

As for how to get there's prescription medicine and herbs to kill or severely diminish the libidio.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

> To me your marriage isn't sexless because you're a nice guy, understanding, not holding her accountable, or etc. It's because you married a partner who didn't love you or desired to have sex with you.


You are right. He did marry a partner who didn't love him or desire to have sex with him. But here's where I believe you may be wrong. She wasn't attracted because he never built a solid foundation for it from the start. He was not giving her what she needed, from the start, a man she could respect and be attracted to. My bet is this...take this very same man, with the very same looks. Give him some self respect and confidence, as well as the attitude that he will not accept less than what he deserves, and I'll bet you my next paycheck she is not acting the way she is towards him, or herself. NO WAY. 

There are reasons that many drop dead gorgeous women out there are dating guys that are clearly not on the same scale of physical attractiveness as they are. It's because they're incredibly attracted to the man inside the "not even close to George Cloony" outer package. A doormat only attracts dirt. The only woman, in my experience, truly attracted to that is attracted for other reasons than love, respect, and appreciation.


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Some great advice in this thread

And I agree with most of it, especially about you reclaiming your dignity and manning up! 

Ignore any advice to talk to her about it, she will see this as a sign of weakness and you being needy, take it off the menu completely, if she has no desire for you it will be a one way street it will turn into you begging and pleading and then getting angry, (yes many of us have been there before).

Start as you mean yo go on!


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Really just divorce her. She selfishly lied to you and has never been a wife to you. Don't get surgery or chemicals because she is selfish b1tch, instead ditch her to her fat fate and upgrade your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

donny64 said:


> You are right. He did marry a partner who didn't love him or desire to have sex with him. But here's where I believe you may be wrong. She wasn't attracted because he never built a solid foundation for it from the start.
> 
> He was not giving her what she needed, from the start, a man she could respect and be attracted to. My bet is this...take this very same man, with the very same looks. Give him some self respect and confidence, as well as the attitude that he will not accept less than what he deserves, and I'll bet you my next paycheck she is not acting the way she is towards him, or herself. NO WAY.
> 
> There are reasons that many drop dead gorgeous women out there are dating guys that are clearly not on the same scale of physical attractiveness as they are. It's because they're incredibly attracted to the man inside the "not even close to George Cloony" outer package. A doormat only attracts dirt. The only woman, in my experience, truly attracted to that is attracted for other reasons than love, respect, and appreciation.


To me it's a toss up that she'll become attracted to him if he gets some self-respect and confidence.

Some gals have more factors than that. All the self respect and confidence doesn't help a guy who isn't 5'10'' when dealing with my gal pal. Nor does it help an overweight guy with another gal pal of mine.

Sometimes attraction and/or love cannot be forced or grown no matter what a person does or say.

His wife may not act the same way because he won't tolerate it but that doesn't mean she'll be attracted to him. 

She may just have more sex with him or even put on a show of enjoying sex with him. 

Those drop dead gorgeous women were dating less attractive guys for their own reasons. Just because it works for someone with a vagina doesn't automatically and necessarily mean it works with all/most who have a vagina.

I know many drop dead gorgeous gals to who less attractive guys don't even exist in their world.

Taking one woman's dating preferences/choices and applying it to all/most gal's is a bit of a reach to me.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

I didn't say all or most. Many women. I meant that as a "good number of", not as a majority.

No, it won't work for all, but it definately gives a guy a "leg up" over others, all else being equal. Answer this for me; how many women do you know that have something going for them....looks, smarts, career, etc., who go for a spineless guy? The prototypical "nice guy" who won't stand up for himself? Who she can walk all over? I'm going to bet not a lot of them. I would bet there are more who are dating guys who are not the greatest lookers than who are dating wussies or doormats. That's the point I guess I was getting to.

There's a lot of reasons for that, varying from nice guys being deceitful, putting up with things, thinking they're not worthy, and other things that build resentment in a man until they become a shell of themselves and harbor resentful feelings towards their mate. Nobody wants someone to resent them. 

And yes, it may be too late, or never possible in the first place. She may NEVER be possibly attracted to him. Maybe he was nothing more than a "meal ticket", and no amount of work on himself will matter. We all know one or two "meal ticket" guys out there. And those type of women that want that DO NOT want a strong guy. That was why I said "doormats attract dirt".

My best buddy just got out of a relationship as that. Great guy, but he takes far too much. Very easy going and would rather keep the peace than stand up for himself. His words. We (his friends) saw what she was about immediately. I had a sit down with him early on and said "dude, what the f*** are you thinking?!!!! Can't you see what she's about?!!" He took her crap. She purposely alienated (or attempted to) all of his friends. Didn't want him out of the house. Blew up his phone with calls and texts to keep tabs on him. He could not go out with friends alone. She had moved in after a couple weeks, and immediately began referring to the place as "my house", "my dog", etc., etc. 

The ending to this is, it took a year, her hitting on him, her cheating on him (or at least threatening to), a lawer, a restraining order, a cash payout settlement of $10k to get her out of HIS house that she had "established residency" in (her words), and a lot of verbal abuse from her before it ended. Had he a spine, this impossible situation would have never happened in the first place, or would have ended far sooner and cost him much less of his sanity and money.

He's now with a great girl. One I had a work-friend relationship with and wanted to date, but she was still involved with another. By the time that was over for her, my wife was in the picture. So, I set them up. One of her first comments to one of our female friends was "He's good looking, fit, great job, etc., etc., but he seems like a bit of a wuss". He's not a "wuss" per-se, but he is extremely easy going to the point, as I stated above, he'll not stand up for himself. They're still together 6 months later, but I see her becoming a little more controlling and the bumps in the road are starting to develop, and he's getting frustrated and doesn't know how to deal with it other than "let it be, it's not worth the hassle". 

Just a couple examples. The don't apply to every situation obviously, but they are clear examples of the dynamics of many relationships, and what happens when one or the other party does not stand up for themselves and take the lead in their own personal life, happieness and well being. How can anyone respect and be attracted to someone who does not look out and take care of #1? If a man can't take care of and look out for himself, how can he possibly take care of and look out for his woman? 

The thing is, this relationship may be doomed or not. But he's got to take steps to better himself and look out for himself. And as I said, then it's up to her if she follows or gets left behind as he becomes happy with himself and confident again. What woman would NOT want that, all else being equal?


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

donny64 said:


> I didn't say all or most. Many women. I meant that as a "good number of", not as a majority.


I didn't claim you said all or most. Miscommunication if you felt that way.

My point is it works for those women for their own reasons so it's a bit of a reach to apply those women's reasons to this woman. She many not be one of the many and she hasn't shown any indication she is going by the OP.

It seemed as if you were suggesting because more attractive women chose less attractive men for other reasons he can just force/grow attraction for similiar reasons. As if since those women do it and there's many of them then it's good general advice.

You lost your first bet. I know many women that have something going for them that go for a spineless guy. The common factor being he's either either extremely attractive or wealthy. 

The second bet you sort of won. Most women I know aren't dating wussies/doormats however who aren't the greatest lookers certainly aren't dating guys less attractive than them. There isn't a large discrepancy between looks in the couples and for most of the women I know no amount of confidence or other reason would change their minds.



donny64 said:


> How can anyone respect and be attracted to someone who does not look out and take care of #1? If a man can't take care of and look out for himself, how can he possibly take care of and look out for his woman?


I know many people respect others that don't look out and take care of #1. In fact the reasont the people respect that person is because s/he doesn't consider themselves #1 but rather their partner, family, children, etc.

I know many gals who aren't attracted to 'look out and take care of #1' guys as they think she should be #1 to him and he should be #1 to her.

There's a big difference to me for looking out and taking care of #1 with #1 being yourself and not taking care and looking out for yourself.



donny64 said:


> The thing is, this relationship may be doomed or not. But he's got to take steps to better himself and look out for himself. And as I said, then it's up to her if she follows or gets left behind as he becomes happy with himself and confident again. What woman would NOT want that, all else being equal?


Many women wouldn't want that as regardless of whether he better or look out for himself her feelings have remained the same only the situation is different- her paycheck is leaving.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

iGuy said:


> Hi
> 
> I promised my wife I wouldn't speak out of our relationship, but I need help! I feel like I am losing my mind!!
> 
> This isn't being a martyr. I made a promise to her and God (yes, I am a Christian - hence divorce not being an option). I need a way for me to get my thoughts AWAY from ANY for of sex or sexuality. But my heart is so broken at the cold rejection...


Back to the original post,

That she wants you to keep this to yourself is _by itself _a huge red flag. Isn't it said somwhere that trying to isolate your spouse is a sign of abuse? Asking for your silence says:

1) She knows she is treating you miserably, and that the overwhelming response you will see is exactly what you have gotten here.

2) She does not plan to improve herself or treat you better, which carries unfortunate implications for what she sees as your role in your life. Since she does not plan to improve, but wants to keep you around to meet her needs, you being on here just makes her life more difficult.

You need to understand that this is a woman operating with a serious entitlement mentality. She just wants to kick back and have someone else do the heavy lifting. If she really valued your satisfaction in the relationship she would at least go to counseling with you. And, if she really thought she was doing right by you she would not request that keep quiet about this.

Also, I commend your stand against divorce. However, I think that can be taken too far. As a Christian, you need to know divorce is permissible. The Biblical standard is sexually satisfying your spouse only. Everyone gets that if you cheat you have wronged your spouse, who then has grounds for a divorce. Not everyone gets that neglecting your spouses's sexuality is likewise wrong and essentially an abandonment of the marriage.

On this track, there are only three possible outcomes:

1) You can simply go on serving her and internalizing your emotions indefinitely, which is unlikely given the level of frustration emanating from your original post.
2) You become unable or unwilling to meet her demands (either because your endurance runs out or outside circumstances prevent you from doing so) and you maybe do not initiate a divorce but do not try to stop her from doing it.
3) She cleans up her act, develops some options for herself, and bails on you in her own good time.

So, what's it going to be?


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## sickofbeingtheniceguy (May 2, 2012)

Wow! This has really helped me see what's going on in my own life. I married a beautiful and VERY experienced woman after I divorced after more than 25 years of being just with her. My new wife was incredible in bed while we were dating and used to tell me all the great things that were in store for me in the coming years. But, just before we actually got married it started to stop and I wasn't even sure she would consummate the marriage on the wedding night! On our honeymoon she would tell me of other great trips with former lovers and would not spare to tell me of all the sexual escapades she had in her younger days. Now she says she doesn’t like sex at all and that my personality isn't up to what she really wants and to top it off, I'm loosing my job due to budget cuts and layoffs and she's upset that what little money I had after my divorce will be even less now. She does her share of cooking and cleaning but like to give the orders and any LITTLE thing that doesn't go her way is cause for being p1ssy. I thought being the nice guy would win her over in time and I let her know that I love her deeply and am very much attracted to her. She's beautiful! But I'm getting sick, really sick, of knowing that she would have and did do some pretty wild things with others in the past and now all I get is "Are you done yet?". She has some lingerie and other things I would like to see her in but will not do this for me at all. However, she has pictures of her doing this for some other guys. I’m getting to the point where I cannot think straight and I’m getting very frustrated and angry. I’ve talked about leaving a few times but she always tells me it will get better and she’s not a young stupid girl anymore. She will do stuff with me but keep giving her time. I gave my last one over 25 years and don’t want to wait any longer. Sometimes I think that a sexless marriage is better than being alone again but I don’t know anymore. I think the next time she does this I’ll just start the process of moving out and separating and let her know when I’m done.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

I only read the first page but if she says you are much larger than her first boyfriends, that is a huge compliment. Not that it helps you much, but at least you can get rid of those images of her having "great" sex with men hung like mosquitos. Since this is an anonymous forum do you mind saying your penis size?

If you are the size of a coke can with over 8" in length, I would assume, especially with you being a virgin and just pounding her with no real technique, she wouldn't enjoy sex. A big goof with a large penis humping her until he cums. Has she ever had an orgasm with you? Not just her moaning and you liking how it sounds, but have you ever asked her does she get off to you? Maybe your penis is to uncomfortable for her to orgasm. You have to learn how to use it.

Communicate and find out. Ask her questions about her orgasming, has she ever? Did she enjoy sex with her Ex's because she just liked the idea of being dirty/naughty and having sex, or did they make her orgasm. If she can orgasm, but not with your penis, look into a vibrator. You can lay off to the side and slowly f..k her, while she uses a vibrator on her clit. This will definitely get her off, and if your member is large, she will learn to enjoy it, because my wife loves to feel an extreme amount of pressure while she orgasms, and a large member does this.

Good luck.


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## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

Aristotle said:


> I only read the first page but if she says you are much larger than her first boyfriends, that is a huge compliment. Not that it helps you much, but at least you can get rid of those images of her having "great" sex with men hung like mosquitos.


Well, not much of a compliment if she doesn't want sex with me, but desired them greatly! I quote: "We were often so horny, we just wanted to screw each other's brains out" and "We often just slipped away for quickies". Never like that with me...



> Since this is an anonymous forum do you mind saying your penis size?


It's just over 7" long (almost 7.5"). Wrapping a string around the head measures 6.8 inches. Obviously normal for me - I suspect other guys are MUCH bigger. I just think she is lying about her ex - like she's probably lying about much else! But he is a short little man in real life...



> Ask her questions about her orgasming, has she ever? Did she enjoy sex with her Ex's because she just liked the idea of being dirty/naughty and having sex, or did they make her orgasm.


She told me about 3 years ago (around the same time she told our friend she was never in love with me) that because I was such an idiot on our honeymoon, she was never able to experience a vaginal orgasm with me (like she was able to with the others).

_*Just this weekend, she had some "trouble" with he laptop's internet connection. I tried to fix it. Not trusting her, I looked at her internet history (what? She READS my work and personal email, checks my FaceBook account etc.) Anyway, I saw that she had looked up her ex on FaceBook. Don't know if she contacted him as she disabled her FB account. Still, saw his profile page. I asked her (more like confronted her) about it and she said she didn't look him up. Not sure why his page was on her history :scratchhead: I feel quite put off....*_


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## iGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

Purposeful double post...

I have read and AM reading your posts. Incredibly insightful. 

It just hurts so much. I've just started a new job, earning a lot of money. It allows her to stay home from 3pm with the kids. I will probably work longer hours - it will be good for my career and at least then I am not home and unavailable by my own choice...


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## sickofbeingtheniceguy (May 2, 2012)

[I said:


> *Just this weekend, she had some "trouble" with he laptop's internet connection. I tried to fix it. Not trusting her, I looked at her internet history (what? She READS my work and personal email, checks my FaceBook account etc.) Anyway, I saw that she had looked up her ex on FaceBook. Don't know if she contacted him as she disabled her FB account. Still, saw his profile page. I asked her (more like confronted her) about it and she said she didn't look him up. Not sure why his page was on her history :scratchhead: I feel quite put off....*[/I]


For what it’s worth, my ex started doing similar things online. Chatting to strange people men and women and telling them way too much personal info. When I confronted her she denied it all but I saw the pages and showed her the proof. She still had the gall to deny it to my face. That ended very badly! My current wife still has many past lovers on her facebook and likes to talk with them and does Skype too. She says it’s nothing but the old hurt is still there and I’m have a big problem getting past this.


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## familyguy35 (May 4, 2012)

I got on here to ask a question. and after reading some posts, I see im not alone. 

Here is my dilima. I have been married to my wife for almost 8 years. In the begginning we had sex at least once or 2 times a day. everyday. and after we got married, slowly sex wasnt so important to her. And in the last few years, it has gotten really bad, and in the last few months.. It has gotten awful. We have sex. about 2 to 3 times a month. If I'm lucky.. and if we do have sex, I have to ask and sometimes beg for it. She never comes on to me. never. Now I work, I help her with the house, we go out, everything that a couple does we do. We don't have any kids together. So it cant be from havin kids in the house. I just get so frustrated. When I do ask her for sex, she says maybe later, an when later comes she says she's to tired or she's hurting. back ache, head ache, ect... It goes on like that for days, then finally breaks down an makes love to me. But she's not into it anymore like she use to be. an sex use to go on for at least an hour, an usally more than an hour. Now if she goes longer than 5 mins, im lucky.. I have a strong sex drive. and she's killin it. I dont know what to do. I talk to her, and listen to her. everything I should do an more. I try an give her four play. but she just tells me to stop. We use to be into oral sex, now she wont do that at all. It's just so confusing. I know shes not cheating on me. Im sure of that. Also a few months ago, I had a front tooth knocked out, on accident. an after that happened. I see that she doesnt even want to kiss me.. like Im so ugly because of it. I have asked her, Do I not satisfy ya. but she says I do. an I ask if she is still attracted to me, an she says yes. so I dont know what the prob. is. We just use to be so close. and sex was great, an now we barely have any, and when we do. sometimes, its not that good at all. She doesnt try anymore. and if we do make love. She finishes, and I am not even close, and she doesnt tell me to stop, but she starts sayin shes hurting, or something. so that I feel bad if I keep goin. so I stop an she says I will help ya finish later. but she never does. So if anyone has info. plz tell me??


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

familyguy35 said:


> I got on here to ask a question. and after reading some posts, I see im not alone.
> 
> Here is my dilima. I have been married to my wife for almost 8 years. In the begginning we had sex at least once or 2 times a day. everyday. and after we got married, slowly sex wasnt so important to her. And in the last few years, it has gotten really bad, and in the last few months.. It has gotten awful. We have sex. about 2 to 3 times a month. If I'm lucky.. and if we do have sex, I have to ask and sometimes beg for it. She never comes on to me. never. Now I work, I help her with the house, we go out, everything that a couple does we do. We don't have any kids together. So it cant be from havin kids in the house. I just get so frustrated. When I do ask her for sex, she says maybe later, an when later comes she says she's to tired or she's hurting. back ache, head ache, ect... It goes on like that for days, then finally breaks down an makes love to me. But she's not into it anymore like she use to be. an sex use to go on for at least an hour, an usally more than an hour. Now if she goes longer than 5 mins, im lucky.. I have a strong sex drive. and she's killin it. I dont know what to do. I talk to her, and listen to her. everything I should do an more. I try an give her four play. but she just tells me to stop. We use to be into oral sex, now she wont do that at all. It's just so confusing. I know shes not cheating on me. Im sure of that. Also a few months ago, I had a front tooth knocked out, on accident. an after that happened. I see that she doesnt even want to kiss me.. like Im so ugly because of it. I have asked her, Do I not satisfy ya. but she says I do. an I ask if she is still attracted to me, an she says yes. so I dont know what the prob. is. We just use to be so close. and sex was great, an now we barely have any, and when we do. sometimes, its not that good at all. She doesnt try anymore. and if we do make love. She finishes, and I am not even close, and she doesnt tell me to stop, but she starts sayin shes hurting, or something. so that I feel bad if I keep goin. so I stop an she says I will help ya finish later. but she never does. So if anyone has info. plz tell me??


If you're sure that there's not another man in the picture, then she's just not attracted to you anymore. Work on making yourself more attractive. Get your tooth fixed. Get in the gym and lose some weight. Work on some hobbies. Do a little less for her and more for yourself. And read up on fitness tests (or sh!t tests) and how to pass them. It's possible that you can pull your wife's attention back to you.

Good luck.


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## familyguy35 (May 4, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> If you're sure that there's not another man in the picture, then she's just not attracted to you anymore. Work on making yourself more attractive. Get your tooth fixed. Get in the gym and lose some weight. Work on some hobbies. Do a little less for her and more for yourself. And read up on fitness tests (or sh!t tests) and how to pass them. It's possible that you can pull your wife's attention back to you.
> 
> Good luck.


 Well I'm not overweight. I'm in great physical condition. I go to the gym 3 days a week. So my appearance isn't the problem. and already have an appointment with a dentist. All the problems that I have mentioned were goin on before I even lost the tooth. So I don't know about that bein the problem. See from what u posted doesn't help any at all. I turn heads everywhere we/I go. My wife seems to always get a lil jelous when we go out. Women seem to stare an have had em even come up to me in stores, or where ever. So I'm not sure but I don't believe my physical appearence is the problem. I'm not ****y. or anything. But I do know I look good. I'm in great shape. an yes six pack an all. So there's nothing I can do to improve my appearance. So what else ya got?? I'm 6ft.. 180pds. so appearance really can't be the problem. Please don't read this and think I'm bein rude. I'm not. I just know that my appearance isn't the case. We get alone fine, sure we have our lil spats like any married couple. but we never have any shouting matches. It's like this. Everything in our marriage is almost perfect. If the sex was like it use to be. then we would have the perfect marriage. and before anyone comes up with an post talkin about money. We make great money, so that's not the problem. So let me think. We have fun together. We go places together. we have our time apart.. we communicate well. like I have stated previously. everything is great. Except for sex. Heck we even cuddle all the time. I even massage her when were cuddling, tryin to intise her into a romantic evening! Sometimes it works, but mostly she justs shuts me down.. I just get sexualy frustrated.. I have tried to talk to her about it. and when I do. She gets upset, or even mad. Says that I won't stop bugging her about it. She won't talk to me about it. I just don't understand. and I learned of this a while back. Her mother is the same way.. From the way I understand it. Her mother doesn't even have sex anymore. she is only 47. and Her mother and step father have a pretty good marriage.. but they don't have sex. It was said to me years ago. That my mother in law was talkin to my wife, and said if my wife was like her, then I'd be in trouble. Not havin sex. If u can follow what I'm saying. all i know is it didnt use to be that way. My wife is only 27. So I don't know if it's a medical thing or not..I do know that my wife's sister, is very sexual with her man. So I just don't know what else to do. and I wouldn't ever think of Divorce, like I have read in others post. We have to great a marriage for that. only problem is the sex. So if anyone has any other ideas. Other than apperance.. plz share.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

You say that your views as a Christian are very important to you. In my opinion, I think that you are missing some deep meanings within a Christian-oriented view of marriage. By definition, from the beginning of the Bible, marriage is a union of two people who are committed to a new shared vision of unity, meeting each other's needs. 

Sometimes, I tend to look at this from an outside perspective because I came closer to my wife's beliefs before we were married, from another spiritual outlook. Christianity shares some very similar views of relationships with my former native american beliefs. In a spiritual sense, it would be very hard for you to argue that the two of you are really married, given that it is largely a marriage of one person. I'd urge you to put the burden on your wife to join the marriage fully, instead of limiting who you are as a man. Grow to be the man you always wanted to be. I think that you will find that she either joins you, or ultimately reveals that you really don't have a marriage at all, and your real aversion in this case just boils down to wanting to avoid ending a marriage that only exists on paper.


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

familyguy35 said:


> Well I'm not overweight. I'm in great physical condition. I go to the gym 3 days a week. So my appearance isn't the problem. and already have an appointment with a dentist. All the problems that I have mentioned were goin on before I even lost the tooth. So I don't know about that bein the problem. See from what u posted doesn't help any at all. I turn heads everywhere we/I go. My wife seems to always get a lil jelous when we go out. Women seem to stare an have had em even come up to me in stores, or where ever. So I'm not sure but I don't believe my physical appearence is the problem. I'm not ****y. or anything. But I do know I look good. I'm in great shape. an yes six pack an all. So there's nothing I can do to improve my appearance. So what else ya got?? I'm 6ft.. 180pds. so appearance really can't be the problem. Please don't read this and think I'm bein rude. I'm not. I just know that my appearance isn't the case. We get alone fine, sure we have our lil spats like any married couple. but we never have any shouting matches. It's like this. Everything in our marriage is almost perfect. If the sex was like it use to be. then we would have the perfect marriage. and before anyone comes up with an post talkin about money. We make great money, so that's not the problem. So let me think. We have fun together. We go places together. we have our time apart.. we communicate well. like I have stated previously. everything is great. Except for sex. Heck we even cuddle all the time. I even massage her when were cuddling, tryin to intise her into a romantic evening! Sometimes it works, but mostly she justs shuts me down.. I just get sexualy frustrated.. I have tried to talk to her about it. and when I do. She gets upset, or even mad. Says that I won't stop bugging her about it. She won't talk to me about it. I just don't understand. and I learned of this a while back. Her mother is the same way.. From the way I understand it. Her mother doesn't even have sex anymore. she is only 47. and Her mother and step father have a pretty good marriage.. but they don't have sex. It was said to me years ago. That my mother in law was talkin to my wife, and said if my wife was like her, then I'd be in trouble. Not havin sex. If u can follow what I'm saying. all i know is it didnt use to be that way. My wife is only 27. So I don't know if it's a medical thing or not..I do know that my wife's sister, is very sexual with her man. So I just don't know what else to do. and I wouldn't ever think of Divorce, like I have read in others post. We have to great a marriage for that. only problem is the sex. So if anyone has any other ideas. Other than apperance.. plz share.


Read Athol Kay! 

Read No more Mr Nice Guy! 

If it's not medical (which it rarely is) and it's not physical attraction which can be a huge part of it, your doing something to turn her off! 

Don't bother asking her about it, because she won't know, because it's instinctive, don't really talk about it because you will be hitting your head against a brick wall. 

I repeat the the quote I got from here the other week, the best thing to say is 

"I know your sex drive has gone but mine certainly has not" 

Leave them to think about it


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

iGuy said:


> Hi
> 
> I promised my wife I wouldn't speak out of our relationship, but I need help! I feel like I am losing my mind!!
> 
> ...



I too am a Christian, love the Lord, and don't take divorce lightly at all, but the thing is...your marriage is already dead. This is not remotely the kind of marriage that is spoken of biblically. A marriage is broken long before anybody decides to legally end it, and your marriage is over. This is not a question of whether you should end your marriage, or not. The marriage is deceased. One partner has given up on all aspects of what defines "marriage". Marriage is two becoming one, not one doing the work of two.

The only decision to make now is whether to continue living in dead places, or bury the dead and move on with your life.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Not to say my marriage/sex life is perfect. As you can read from my threads i started, but for the post i read about how the wife is bored of sex or does not want it anymore get the book "The married mans sex guide". I am half way through and already started changing things. I know it will take time but i am determined to make my wife stop being dominating...
I truly believe a woman does want sex, you just have to know how to be the right type of guy during the month. Half was through their "cycle" woman are very sexual. That's when they say be a dominating guy. They want this!!
For me i am at the beginning of this experiment so i can't give you concrete results but after a few days of changing myself i already see results so imagine after months.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

familyguy35 said:


> Well I'm not overweight. I'm in great physical condition. I go to the gym 3 days a week. So my appearance isn't the problem. and already have an appointment with a dentist. ... So what else ya got??


Only two sentences in my post dealt with physical appearance. Most married men would be well served to get into the gym and lose a little weight and/or put on a little muscle. If that's not you, then great. You're ahead of the game. You can skip to step 2.

You say you have an appointment to fix your teeth. Great again. Proceed to step 3.

The rest of my post was about self-improvement and changing your attitude toward her. Stop making her the center of your universe. Focus on you. Become more assertive. Pass her fitness tests. There's a good chance that you can become attractive to her with a personality adjustment on your part.



familyguy35 said:


> ... Everything in our marriage is almost perfect. If the sex was like it use to be. then we would have the perfect marriage.


A sexless marriage is like the old joke, "Apart from that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?" Sex is fundamental to the health of a marriage. And it's very often a symptom. Not a cause.

So, if you want your wife to have sex with you, it will do you no good to complain to her that she's not willing to have sex with you. You need to become someone that she's willing to have sex with. If you can do that, the sex will naturally return.

The Coping With Infidelity board is full of men who had sexless marriages, gave up on sex believing that their wives were devoid of any desire, only to find their wives in affairs with other men where the frequency and actions were such that their husbands would never have imagined possible. These wives didn't lack sexual desire. They lacked sexual desire _for their husbands_. When you understand that, you can often fix the problem.

Good luck.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> So, if you want your wife to have sex with you, it will do you no good to complain to her that she's not willing to have sex with you. You need to become someone that she's willing to have sex with. If you can do that, the sex will naturally return.
> 
> The Coping With Infidelity board is full of men who had sexless marriages, gave up on sex believing that their wives were devoid of any desire, only to find their wives in affairs with other men where the frequency and actions were such that their husbands would never have imagined possible. These wives didn't lack sexual desire. They lacked sexual desire _for their husbands_. When you understand that, you can often fix the problem.
> 
> Good luck.


Yup!!! most of the time it's too late though...


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Wow!!! So rude and disrespectful that she talks to you THAT way about her ex-partners!!!
There's no nee for her to brag about them. 
Why did she marry you then???

What a b*tch about the way she's treating you!!!
Instead of feeling lucky, she treats you like trash.


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Wow!!! So rude and disrespectful that she talks to you THAT way about her ex-partners!!!
> There's no nee for her to brag about them.
> Why did she marry you then???
> 
> ...


It sounds bad, but perhaps she is just waiting for him to Man Up, the more the boundaries are pushed the further they go, but he can do quite a lot right now, like tell her no way is he going to tolerate being spoken to like that, and follow all the other advice in this thread, if the marriage falls apart at least he will leave with his dignity intact!!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Bluemoon1 said:


> It sounds bad, but perhaps she is just waiting for him to Man Up, the more the boundaries are pushed the further they go, but he can do quite a lot right now, like tell her no way is he going to tolerate being spoken to like that, and follow all the other advice in this thread, if the marriage falls apart at least he will leave with his dignity intact!!


At which point however he would need to question why he, a great guy going by the information at our disposal, wants to spend the rest of his life with a woman who's not even mature enough to verbalize her needs. This man has been doing all the work, and now he's got to do more work in order to accommodate this lazy lump of flesh masquerading as his "wife"? What, so she can maybe snap out of her malaise and give him a second glance?

He is a doormat, and that needs to change. However he also might just need a woman who wouldn't put him through 10,000 paces just to maybe crack a smile every ten years.

Before you go through all that effort to self improve, make sure the person you're doing it for is worth it. This woman doesn't sound like she is.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jaquen said:


> At which point however he would need to question why he, a great guy going by the information at our disposal, wants to spend the rest of his life with a woman who's not even mature enough to verbalize her needs. This man has been doing all the work, and now he's got to do more work in order to accommodate this lazy lump of flesh masquerading as his "wife"? What, so she can maybe snap out of her malaise and give him a second glance?


The thing is, his wife isn't all that rare. The basic desires of women are pretty standard across the board. It's just that men waste time working on things that aren't important to women. A man can run himself in circles doing things that his wife doesn't care about and it won't change her opinion of him.

We're not telling these guys to work harder. We're telling them to work smarter. Stop wasting time on things that don't matter and start working on things that do.



jaquen said:


> Before you go through all that effort to self improve, make sure the person you're doing it for is worth it. This woman doesn't sound like she is.


She's been cruel. That's for certain. But, self-improvement is never wasted. If nothing else, time at the gym will give his mind some time off. If his wife becomes attracted, great. If not, at least he's healthier and happier.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> The thing is, his wife isn't all that rare. The basic desires of women are pretty standard across the board. It's just that men waste time working on things that aren't important to women. A man can run himself in circles doing things that his wife doesn't care about and it won't change her opinion of him.
> 
> We're not telling these guys to work harder. We're telling them to work smarter. Stop wasting time on things that don't matter and start working on things that do.


I think this is extraordinarily limited. It suggests that women all share one collective brain, and thus all want the same thing. I know plenty of "nice guys" with amazing women who ADORE them, and are nothing whatoever like this loser of a "wife". He needs to work on being a doormat, but he's got plenty of noble, great qualities that plenty of women will like.

If this dumbass doesn't want him, he needs to find a woman who will.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jaquen said:


> I think this is extraordinarily limited. It suggests that women all share one collective brain, and thus all want the same thing. I know plenty of "nice guys" with amazing women who ADORE them, and are nothing whatoever like this loser of a "wife". He needs to work on being a doormat, but he's got plenty of noble, great qualities that plenty of women will like.
> 
> If this dumbass doesn't want him, he needs to find a woman who will.


I haven't said women share a collective brain. I'm only saying that most women want similar things in a mate. That's not being limited. It's being realistic.

Most women want a man who is fit. Now, are a few women attracted to morbidly obese men? Sure. But, if a man wants to attract women, I would advise him to hit the gym to get more fit rather than to become morbidly obese. That's just playing the odds.

Take a minute to look at the online dating profiles of women who describe what they're looking for in a man. The same words are used over and over. And they're not the words "nice" or "sweet" or "cooks."


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I think this is extraordinarily limited. It suggests that women all share one collective brain, and thus all want the same thing. I know plenty of "nice guys" with amazing women who ADORE them, and are nothing whatoever like this loser of a "wife". He needs to work on being a doormat, but he's got plenty of noble, great qualities that plenty of women will like.
> 
> If this dumbass doesn't want him, he needs to find a woman who will.


 
If you read the Nice Guy Reference completely... nice guys aren't really truly nice guys. It's not what you think. There is much more to this than just being a doormat. 

And there is some merit in lumping women... there is a more primal thing going on here, underneath it all. 

This is a GOOD example of it, actually. When choosing a mate, a woman will look for traits like security, money, the ability to support a family, etc. She may not even be aware of it. This also affects her ability to show love for a spouse, especially if children are involved. Primal sense to protect the children, above all else. One does not put themselves in a vulnerable state (sex) with another person who does not convey that they are not manipulating, being honest, or tricking them. 

The real "nice guy" isn't honest, won't stand up and not allow others to walk over them, etc. Still not what a woman wants.

Unless you are looking for a special friend... not a father for your children.


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