# HD/LD - Gaslighting question



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

To the HD people in a HD/LD relationship, do you ever feel like you are being gaslighted?

There are times when we will have a conversation about it and it is like I am crazy for thinking she doesn't want to have sex. I mean, in a cheating situation, the spouse being cheated on sees all of the signs and signals, but is told there are other reasons or they are just imagining things.

That is how I feel sometimes. Like, I see what you are doing and the signals you are putting out, but I am told they don't mean anything?

I have even been told that I need to ignore all of the signals she puts out and just have sex with her anyway, like what kind of guy just tries to have sex with is wife after she spent 10 minutes talking about how unwell and tired she feels?


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I meant to add, I sometimes feel like she doesn't want to admit to me or herself that she is really not interested in having sex at all. That somehow to admit that, means she has failed. However, if we never get to that point, how can anything be worked on.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

All Of The ****ing Time!!!

But of course it isn't gaslighting, because a man can not be abused.

For me it was the constantly changing dates. We would make arrangements. When the time came it was "I never said that". Quite frankly I don't expect anything anymore. Honestly, we can be undressed, in bed, and making out with petting, and I'm still wondering if we will have sex this week. 
MN


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

There are cycles in ltrs / long marriages. 

Forgive me if I missed it, how long married or?

During some time periods a W can get in the habit of telling the story of things or troubles of the day even when getting nekkid, and expecting/knowing shes going to have sex with hubby/SO.

As long as there's no ready set / no just kidding going on, then it wouldn't be gaslighting. If she continues on through with a good romp she's just gotten into what may be a bad habit of merging telling of her troubles with pre-sex activities. It's not difficult for her do do thst.

There does need to be a separation of the two activities, both are important to her if all else is well.

She needs time to talk, you listen, then everyone changes gears to focusing on sex as desired.

The habit can be nicely and constructively broken with communication. 

Or, honestly, and this happens to all now and then, just kind of tune it out, because if you keep answering she'll keep talking. If you both know you're going to have sex happily just stop listening. 

😊 I might get some heat from others for saying out loud, but just stop listening if she's continuing with negativity but still getting nekkid. 

Because as you say, too much negativity starts to hurt your frame of mind, pre-sex wise, is kind of side tracking if you will.

It's ok to "ignore" her at times when all are getting (in the end happily) ready to fool around, unless she's really trying to take some separate to talk about an important topic with you. 

It may just take some kindly effort to separate non-sex talk from time to have sex.

Good luck!


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

This isn't rocket science. If a wife talks about how tired and stressed she is and you want ot have sex....listen to her, ampathize, and tell her you'd really like to make love to her.

This whole idea that if I say I don't feel good I have gaslit you because we didn't read each other's minds is stupid and infantile.

Now, that said, there IS such thing as HD/LD gaslighting.

It's when the LD partner denies that they refuse sex, tell you you would have more sex if you just X, and then moves the goalposts. Which is what pretty much every LD spouse who wants to keep the benefits of their HD spouse does.

Yeah...they do.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Marriage will be 24 years this summer.

It's not that she is venting about the troubles of the day before or during sex. I am fine with things that happen like that. It is mostly that I am imagining that she is setting the table for a sexless evening by the topics she brings up.

If she was just venting about her boss, or our son, or traffic, that is one thing. To tell me how tired you are, how sore your back is, or how your meal isn't sitting well, every day. That is different.

She makes is clear with her actions and words that she wants nothing more than to go to bed and rest, but then is shocked when I say that is the case. As if I am just imaging that she spent the last 10 minutes saying how much she wanted to sleep and close her eyes.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> Marriage will be 24 years this summer.
> 
> It's not that she is venting about the troubles of the day before or during sex. I am fine with things that happen like that. It is mostly that I am imagining that she is setting the table for a sexless evening by the topics she brings up.
> 
> ...


Unless she has a pattern of using these excuses to overtly and clearly avoid sex, I would just take her words at face value without assigning any sex or no sex meaning to them. If you want to have sex with her, let her know. If she is that tired she will say "not tonight." If she doesn't and then gets upset at YOU, then she is guilty of expecting you to read her mind.

Sometimes I have a crap day, and my tummy is iffy (because of the crap day), and I am worried about my one child who is making questionable decisions.....and even though it doesn't make sense, what I really NEED before I go to sleep is a good romp 

Now, if you have had a season in your marriage where she DID repeatedly avoid sex, then it makes sense that you would be unsure and trying to avoid rejection. BTDT


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> This whole idea that if I say I don't feel good I have gaslit you because we didn't read each other's minds is stupid and infantile.



It isn't saying those things that is the gaslighting part of it. It is that when we talk about the issues, she denies that she says these things.


Why would I want to have sex with a person that just told me how exhausted and sick they are?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> It isn't saying those things that is the gaslighting part of it. It is that when we talk about the issues, she denies that she says these things.
> 
> 
> Why would I want to have sex with a person that just told me how exhausted and sick they are?


Maybe she is weird like me and sex actually makes me less sick and exhausted  

Unless it's puking. Don't come near me when I'm puking!


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Here is an example:

Yesterday she texted me a funny picture of a contractor doing something very unappealing at her work. I responded jokingly "so you want to fool around later?" She replied yes.

So, the day went on, I didn't think anything of it, because I was just joking about her being turned on by the picture.

I normally shower twice a day, so after dinner, I am getting my evening shower and she comes in to start getting ready for bed. It was early for that sort of thing, so I asked if that was what she was doing. She said yes, she was really tired and wanted to get to bed early.

After I got out of the shower, she started as if she was going to get in the shower and I asked if she was. She said yes, so we could have sex because she said yes earlier. Now, sure that sounds good, but this was all said with a sad tone and puppy dog pity eyes.


So, I could have had sex with her last night. It would have gone down like it does 99/100 times. Me doing lots of work, her having her orgasm, and me finishing. It would have been a completely one sided, minimal activity session.


She is always available for that. I mean, I guess if I could just lay there and O without having to do anything, I would be into that as well.


Now in her mind, she did everything she was supposed to do, no problems. It is like her idea of initiating "hey, you wanna do it" which is followed by the session described above.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

What I found in the past, and I don't think it was gaslighting per se, my W would make it very clear when she was tired (whether via words, body language, etc...). I don't doubt she was actually tired, but you do start to notice a trend (she may have very well been doing it subconsciously). It wasn't outright rejection, and if I decided to start something she would be on board. Like I said though, you start to notice a pattern, a way of saying "I don't want to have sex" without actually coming out and saying those words.

That being said, over the past month or so (after hanging around at rock bottom for a while) things have gotten dramatically better. We have both cleared the air completely. Why it is working I believe is b/c we genuinely want to meet each others needs. We both realized there were areas being unmet, so getting it all out in the open, talking about everything honestly, there really is no excuse. Now of course, this actually requires both people caring enough about the other to work together. If one person isn't on board, then a crash & burn is likely inevitable.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> Here is an example:
> 
> Yesterday she texted me a funny picture of a contractor doing something very unappealing at her work. I responded jokingly "so you want to fool around later?" She replied yes.
> 
> ...



AHHHHHH

Yeah...this is complex.

She banters, she offers, she talks about being tired...but she'll do it anyway cause she said she would (insert martyr-like sigh). Then if she does, she kinda lays there, has a treat, and then tada.

I'm not sure what that is. I'm not sure it's gaslighting as much as it is a little bit of martyrdom. But I have noticed that a lot of LD women, especially, like to flirt that way when they are not in the same room as their husband, and then they act put upon later that he actually took her seriously.

I don't really get it because A. I am a very HD woman and B. I'm not mean lol

I mainly said that last part to stir the pot


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> This isn't rocket science. If a wife talks about how tired and stressed she is and you want ot have sex....listen to her, ampathize, and tell her you'd really like to make love to her.
> 
> This whole idea that if I say I don't feel good I have gaslit you because we didn't read each other's minds is stupid and infantile.
> 
> ...


I like POI's answer. Better and to the point than mine.

😍


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I have a thing that I like to say. People often say that they 'want' a certain thing. Like my wife would say that she 'wants to have sex with me'. However, what they really mean in that is they 'want to want' the thing.

If she 'wanted' to have sex with me, she would. What she wishes, was that she wanted to have sex with me. I use the word wish there, because it is the notion that if it just happened, that would be great. She is not going to take proactive steps to make it happen, but if it just did, that sure would be cool.


Also, I am mostly venting here. I am a pretty introspective person and have been through multiple types of counseling and couples counseling. I have read multiple books and even have done premarital counseling for young couples. I don't expect anyone to fix this or give some crazy new insight, just listen and talk.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Tasorundo said:


> Yesterday she texted me a funny picture of a contractor doing something very unappealing at her work. I responded jokingly "so you want to fool around later?" She replied yes.


Funny enough, one thing I have learned is that if at any point during the day my W talks about wanting to have sex (i.e. kids and all, would have to wait until nighttime), there is a 97.87625% chance nothing will happen at night lol. At that moment when she says something, she does genuinely want to have sex (especially if we could at that moment). I do think in part, her saying she wanted to have sex, it was like she tried and started something. Not her fault we couldn't actually have sex at that exact moment so her job is done. The problem, when she says something, the idea is planted in my head and it is something I now look forward to as the day comes to an end (sounds similar to what you mentioned, you were showering looking forward to being met by some enthusiasm from your W)


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> Marriage will be 24 years this summer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mrs. T: "My day has been rough! My boss has-"

Tasorundo: Sorry, but I am feeling rather tired. I don't really feel like listening."

When she loses her ****:

"This is what rejection feels like. Let's see if you deal with as gracefully as you expect me to."

Gaslighting (if it is in fact happening) needs to be dealt with lest it become part of your regular dynamic.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

My ex played that game. She would text or say something flirty during the day, then come home and be soooooo tired! Or constipated or wiped out. Many times if she didn't do that, she would offer me a "rain check" for tomorrow because it was late, she was tired, she had to get up early, she had a meeting, it was going to be cold tomorrow etc, etc. Then when tomorrow came the whole game would start over. I got to the point that I just knew nothing was going to happen by the signs of vibes she gave off so I stopped even trying. 
She spent years pushing me away. Whenever I brought the subject up, I was told that was stupid and that she was doing the best she could and if I didn't like it she was leaving. Inevitably I would cave and apologize and slink off.
I laughed at her when she told me she "had been trying to get my attention for weeks!" at the end of our marriage. Yeah sure, push me away for years and then decide unilaterally that now you wanted it from me but only in the last few months. Screw that!


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Tasorundo said:


> Here is an example:
> 
> Yesterday she texted me a* funny picture of a contractor doing something very unappealing* at her work. I responded jokingly "so you want to fool around later?" She replied yes.


I can't figure out how a funny picture of a contractor doing something _very unappealing_ would be a hint that she wants to have sex.

However when you asked, she said "yes."

You guys have some interesting communication going on that requires your super special decoder ring to decipher.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> I meant to add, I sometimes feel like she doesn't want to admit to me or herself that she is really not interested in having sex at all. That somehow to admit that, means she has failed. However, if we never get to that point, how can anything be worked on.


There's a name for women like this 'c***' teasers!
I think you have to be blunt and not skirt around the issue. Explain to her how it is an essential part of your soul/humanity to come together with her for connection, closeness, etc. 
Many women do not get this and think that sex for a man is a physiological need. Yes it may be but in a marriage, it is much more. Be prepared to expose your emotions, lay yourself bare.
I think if wives really knew the depth of their husband's need in this regard. Need for sex is like being physically hungry. Would she deny you a meal if you were hungry? Many women don't get this. I didn't know this until I was much older. If one cares for their spouse at all, they would meet that need.

I think this article gives added insight
https://www.psychologytoday.com/int...l-doing-it/201708/the-truth-about-men-and-sex


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> Like, I see what you are doing and the signals you are putting out, but I am told they don't mean anything?
> 
> I have even been told that I need to ignore all of the signals she puts out and just have sex with her anyway, like what kind of guy just tries to have sex with is wife after she spent 10 minutes talking about how unwell and tired she feels?


If I were to base my marital sex life based on the signals my wife puts out, I would go insane. The issue is often that they don't know or understand themselves.






Tasorundo said:


> I meant to add, I sometimes feel like she doesn't want to admit to me or herself that she is really not interested in having sex at all.


She wants sex. Never doubt that one. 



Mr. Nail said:


> For me it was the constantly changing dates. We would make arrangements. When the time came it was "I never said that".


If I arranged date/time to have sex with my wife she would be completely turned off. 



Tasorundo said:


> I responded jokingly "so you want to fool around later?" She replied yes.
> 
> So, the day went on, I didn't think anything of it, because I was just joking about her being turned on by the picture.
> 
> ...


Putting your wife in charge of the "permission to have sex" is as cold to her as that sex she is giving you in the shower thing you describe above.
More than likely she would much prefer the dynamic of her not being made responsible for any of it and you taking charge of everything. She just wants it done 
to her without having to take responsibility for it. The more you ask for permission and approval the more "gaslighting" you will get.....which is not what it really is.

My wife never turns down my advances ..... If I were to "ask" her for sex I have no doubt she would say....NO !!!!

I'm not convinced your wife is LD.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Araucaria said:


> You guys have some interesting communication going on that requires your super special decoder ring to decipher.


There isn't anything special or odd about it. The picture was not a hint she wanted to fool around, it was a joke. My response about asking to fool around, was a continuation of the joke. She would not be turned on the by picture, but turned off, as I think most people would be. My expectation of her response to my reply was that she would make a joke about how turned on she was right then having just taken the picture.



aine said:


> I think you have to be blunt and not skirt around the issue. Explain to her how it is an essential part of your soul/humanity to come together with her for connection, closeness, etc. Many women do not get this and think that sex for a man is a physiological need. Yes it may be but in a marriage, it is much more. Be prepared to expose your emotions, lay yourself bare.
> I think if wives really knew the depth of their husband's need in this regard. Need for sex is like being physically hungry. Would she deny you a meal if you were hungry?[/url]


There have been many conversations about this. With and without counselors. I have no issues opening up and talking about my emotions and desires with her. Due to her parents and medications, she is the one that has a hard time articulating what she is feeling.



Mr.Married said:


> If I were to base my marital sex life based on the signals my wife puts out, I would go insane. The issue is often that they don't know or understand themselves.
> 
> She wants sex. Never doubt that one.
> 
> ...


This is where it gets complicated and to the heart of the issue that I started the thread with. I think she doesn't understand herself. In our many years together, she is unable to tell me anything that actually increases her desire to have sex with me. I know of about 100 things that lower it though!

I also think she does want sex, and I know that she does want me to take charge. We do not schedule it, and I do not ask for permission. What happens is that when I want sex, I have to first fight through all of the roadblocks that she has been putting up. I have to filter out what is a legitimate complaint and what is just a mention of a minor annoyance. Like with how tired she is, how upset her stomach is, etc. I honestly think she doesn't realize how much she complains about these things and how much of our time together is spent unpacking those feelings.

When there is a dynamic of lots of rejection early in our marriage, it predisposes me to play the odds. Then when there is a denial of the complaining, it makes me feel like I am going crazy and wonder if I am imagining it all.

--------

I do know that she does love me, and that she really does wish that she was more into it all. She is not mean or vindictive about sex, she doesn't purposefully tease me or flirt with me. In fact even in the story about the other night, she was perfectly willing to have sex, but it would not have been good for me to do it. I would have felt worse having sex with her than not.

I do appreciate people listening and responding. It is good to get out some of the thoughts.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

In Married in Captivity, Esther Perel challenges women with the question of “I turn myself off by...” or “I turn myself off when I...”. For example “I turn myself off when I zone out on Facebook.” For some women that is the issue others it’s a pursuit thing.

Another poster mentioned something about the woman being in charge of sex. In my marriage, my wife once lashed out at having to be in charge of sex. I said when one partner “friend zones” the other until they say they’re horny and wants sex when and how they want yet keep their sexuality a closely guarded secret they have put themselves In charge. In essence it’s gatekeeping. One partner can’t be totally open and receptive while the other requires a bunch of constraints and restraints and then says they resent being in charge. It’s like the friend that tells you they’re up for whatever then complains they always have to pick where to eat but always has pushback or an excuse not to go where you suggest where to eat. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

My wife would walk through the door and immediately say how tired she was... that was the signal... :laugh:


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> My wife would walk through the door and immediately say how tired she was... that was the signal... :laugh:


consider rubbing her feet......well if she is just coming in from work and deserves it that is.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> consider rubbing her feet......well if she is just coming in from work and deserves it that is.


I did that for a long time... but then she got into her mind that I was doing it to get sex later... which wasn't true... well, after 2 weeks it did cross my mind... :laugh:


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> I did that for a long time... but then she got into her mind that I was doing it to get sex later... which wasn't true... well, after 2 weeks it did cross my mind... :laugh:



Women are keen my friend......really keen. They can smell a covert sex contract 30 miles away like a fart in an elevator.

If you ever did that in your history she isn't going to forget it soon. If it was a habit in you history ...God help you.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

If you've been married for 24 years, I'll assume your wife is around 50 or so. And that likely means peri-menopause or menopause. And for a lot of women, that means losing their libido.

I too believe your wife 'wants to want' to have sex, but if she's menopausal, then her imbalanced hormones may have taken her sex drive away. I often see on the internet or on message boards women who claim their libido 'soared to the heavens' after menopause but I've honestly never known even *one* woman in real life who claims this happened for her. Instead, they've all said they pretty much the same thing - that they lost their sex drives once they hit menopause or after they were through menopause. 

Could this be the issue?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> Women are keen my friend......really keen. They can smell a covert sex contract 30 miles away like a fart in an elevator.
> 
> If you ever did that in your history she isn't going to forget it soon. If it was a habit in you history ...God help you.


No, I thought about it, but never did it because I wanted sex. I liked rubbing her feet. But once she got that impression, I couldn't do it anymore. I got the "I'm really tired" announcement every night... :laugh:

Anyway, my marriage is pretty much history.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> consider rubbing her feet......well if she is just coming in from work and deserves it that is.


She knows I am always available and she almost always turns down any offer of physical touch. I personally love to touch and be touched in almost any way. I love having my back scratched and enjoy giving foot massages, or any massage for that matter. The few times she has not accepted, I make sure to not try and progress it so there isn't a quid pro quo issue.



She'sStillGotIt said:


> If you've been married for 24 years, I'll assume your wife is around 50 or so. And that likely means peri-menopause or menopause. And for a lot of women, that means losing their libido.
> 
> I too believe your wife 'wants to want' to have sex, but if she's menopausal, then her imbalanced hormones may have taken her sex drive away. I often see on the internet or on message boards women who claim their libido 'soared to the heavens' after menopause but I've honestly never known even *one* woman in real life who claims this happened for her. Instead, they've all said they pretty much the same thing - that they lost their sex drives once they hit menopause or after they were through menopause.
> 
> Could this be the issue?


We got married pretty young, she is 43 I am 42. She is possibly premenopausal, but we have a great doctor and she is already on hormone treatment for testosterone and progesterone.

I am sure her health plays a part as well as she is on multiple anti-depressants and has hashimotos thyroiditis. She has been treated for those for the last 13 years.


I think the trouble for me is that I know she is willing and she really wishes that she was able to be what I wanted. I often times wonder if I even know what I want anyway. Life is a mystery!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> I am sure her health plays a part as well as she is on multiple anti-depressants


Can't be 100% sure, since we all react in different ways, but I think you have your answer there. When my wife started taking them, it was the end of our marriage. She was feeling better, but sex became a battleground because she was completely devoid of any libido and she wan't interested at all. To be fair, she did try, but at the end I gave up...


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Tasorundo said:


> Due to her parents and medications, she is the one that has a hard time articulating what she is feeling.
> 
> In our many years together, she is unable to tell me anything that actually increases her desire to have sex with me.
> 
> ...


Many women like to unpack their day verbally as a way of decompressing and letting it all go so we can move on with our free time. Telling you her woes sounds a lot like she's trying to both let go of her distractions/stress and be emotionally close to you. Women tend to feel more sexually open to their partners when they're emotionally close. 

Remember, sex floods our bodies with a variety of "feel good" chemicals. When your wife says she is tired or has an upset stomach, but is still willing to have sex, believe her! Sex reduces the physical symptoms of stress and tension. Sex gives us that relaxed euphoric feeling. It's actually a really great cure for feeling a bit icky or being unable to relax and sleep.

Maybe those "roadblocks" aren't actually roadblocks and just perceived as such by you.

A lot of women who tend toward the submissive side sexually want their partner to be the one to initiate and a lot of women have responsive desire. If your wife has responsive desire and is sexually submissive then you'll have to accept that she's not likely to just randomly want sex and that you'll have to get her in the mood the majority of the time.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> Many women like to unpack their day verbally as a way of decompressing and letting it all go so we can move on with our free time. Telling you her woes sounds a lot like she's trying to both let go of her distractions/stress and be emotionally close to you. Women tend to feel more sexually open to their partners when they're emotionally close.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is exactly why denying her the listening ear has the potential for impact.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Tasorundo said:


> There isn't anything special or odd about it. The picture was not a hint she wanted to fool around, it was a joke. My response about asking to fool around, was a continuation of the joke. She would not be turned on the by picture, but turned off, as I think most people would be. My expectation of her response to my reply was that she would make a joke about how turned on she was right then having just taken the picture.


But you used this as an example of her saying 'yes' to sex earlier in the day, and then 'no' to it at night. If you were both joking, why would you expect her to want to have sex that night because of a joke during the day? The two things are completely separate in my mind, and evidently in hers too.

You need to be more direct, and just tell her how much you want her and start the process with hugs and kisses. If she tells you to stop, then you know where she is at at that moment. Stop trying to read her mind. Just because she is tired when she gets home doesn't mean she will be tired in a couple of hours after she has decompressed.

She wants to be pursued. I can almost promise you that if a masculine alpha man pursued her hard, she would have to work at keeping her mind off him. You need to be that masculine alpha male. Don't let her discourage your pursuits, unless she gives you a flat out 'no.'


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Araucaria said:


> But you used this as an example of her saying 'yes' to sex earlier in the day, and then 'no' to it at night. If you were both joking, why would you expect her to want to have sex that night because of a joke during the day? The two things are completely separate in my mind, and evidently in hers too.


It was the setup to a story about the way she acted when she was telling me we could have sex. Whether or not I thought it was a joke earlier is irrelevant to the story. I just told the full story rather than just the part about her sad face as she made the death march into the shower to throw herself on the altar of our bed for sacrifice.



Araucaria said:


> You need to be more direct, and just tell her how much you want her and start the process with hugs and kisses. If she tells you to stop, then you know where she is at at that moment. Stop trying to read her mind. Just because she is tired when she gets home doesn't mean she will be tired in a couple of hours after she has decompressed.
> 
> She wants to be pursued. I can almost promise you that if a masculine alpha man pursued her hard, she would have to work at keeping her mind off him. You need to be that masculine alpha male. Don't let her discourage your pursuits, unless she gives you a flat out 'no.'


That is generally how it goes down when I either don't get a ton of off putting signals early, or just ignore them. What I would like is to not have to ignore them, because they are not flooding in all the time.

I do pursue her, I am not some passive weeny waiting for scraps. I would like there to be more sex, I would like her to act more like she wanted to be pursued, and I would like her to be more participatory.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> sad face as she made the death march into the shower to throw herself on the altar of our bed for sacrifice.
> 
> .


Love the word choice .... that's funny as hell.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

What's the frequency? Of sex, not the rejections... :laugh:

I don't think you mentioned it... well, at least not in this thread... that would put things in perspective, although I know we all have different dynamics...


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> What's the frequency? Of sex, not the rejections... :laugh:
> 
> I don't think you mentioned it... well, at least not in this thread... that would put things in perspective, although I know we all have different dynamics...


The current frequency is about 2x a month. There are some real outside forces that are part of that, but those are being remedied. For example, I spent yesterday putting out bedroom back together so we can sleep in there again. It was the first time for us to have a master bed/bath since early September.

I think part of what led me to post was that when we recently discussed the frequency, she just passed it off on all the extenuating circumstances. It really made me think 'There are always extenuating circumstances!' They just change. We never seem to really overcome them, just replace them with new ones as the old ones are dealt with.

For the most part, she will never reject me. I will get duty sex of some kind every time I try to initiate.

I know that a large part of overcoming this current state is on me. I have to fight through it and just go for it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> The current frequency is about 2x a month. There are some real outside forces that are part of that, but those are being remedied. For example, I spent yesterday putting out bedroom back together so we can sleep in there again. It was the first time for us to have a master bed/bath since early September.
> 
> I think part of what led me to post was that when we recently discussed the frequency, she just passed it off on all the extenuating circumstances. It really made me think 'There are always extenuating circumstances!' They just change. We never seem to really overcome them, just replace them with new ones as the old ones are dealt with.
> 
> ...



Sounds like you married my wife... :laugh: Apart from being always tired and stressed out with work, and 4 kids on top of that, she used to say that, because of the ADs she was taking, she had no libido, never thought about sex and she had to decide to have sex. She would enjoy it when we had it and the frequency was 2x month too. But she explained to me that it was a very complex mechanism and even a little tiny thing could put her off.

She didn't tell me all this when we struggled 10 years ago (we were your age then). She just withdrew in her shell with no communication. Me getting angry about it didn't help. But after we nearly divorced, we compromised and the relationship was good (or so I thought). Until she dropped the bomb of no sex anymore a few months ago. Reason? No libido because of ADs and menopause, plus empty nest syndrome and her upbringing... I wish I could stay in the marriage like a monk, but I can't... 

At least you two are communicating, which is a good sign.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> In Absentia said:
> 
> 
> > What's the frequency? Of sex, not the rejections... <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" ></a>
> ...


It sounds to me like aside from the frequency, the actual problem is the duty sex.

If she truly wanted to have sex with you, it wouldn't be duty sex most of the time, and the frequency would be a lot higher.

Do you know the real reason she doesn't have passion for you?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Livvie said:


> It sounds to me like aside from the frequency, the actual problem is the duty sex.
> 
> If she truly wanted to have sex with you, it wouldn't be duty sex most of the time, and the frequency would be a lot higher.
> 
> Do you know the real reason she doesn't have passion for you?



I think this whole story could be wrapped up with the fact she is on anti-D meds.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> This is exactly why denying her the listening ear has the potential for impact.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


By no means deny the listening ear, that's for sure.

Separating the two functions if side tracks you, possible, if kindly and gracefully talked through when not in bed.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> I think this whole story could be wrapped up with the fact she is on anti-D meds.


I totally agree with this. I've been through this with my wife, and she had no interest at all. She stopped them once and her libido came back and she wanted sex again. But she didn't manage to stay off them... :frown2: So, that was it...


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I agree the meds have a big role in all of this, but that isnt going to change. Last time we looked at adjusting them, she was hospitalized for a week so she wouldn't kill herself. I took her in, it was not a good time.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> It isn't saying those things that is the gaslighting part of it. It is that when we talk about the issues, she denies that she says these things.
> 
> Why would I want to have sex with a person that just told me how exhausted and sick they are?





personofinterest said:


> Maybe she is weird like me and sex actually makes me less sick and exhausted
> 
> Unless it's puking. Don't come near me when I'm puking!


My wife isn't LD and, historically, if we went longer than a week without sex, she'd be the one to mention it.

However, I have this idea that if someone talks about what a rough day they had, how tired they are...... I assume that they aren't up for sex.

One example, we were pretty much planning on sex one evening. I come home and she's had a really rough day; tells me all about it. I assume she's not up for it and don't initiate.

A couple of days later, I mention how horny I was that day (not in an accusatory way, somehow, it just cam up in conversation). 

She asks why I didn't initiate.

I remind her how her day went and that she seemed really worn out and down.

She tells me that, after a day like that, sex is exactly what she needs and that she was disappointed.

The problem is me. I just have a really hard time having sex with someone who seems to be exhausted and bummed. Honestly, even if she'd told me she wanted to have sex that night, I would have had a hard time doing so.

If I was only interested in my own needs, she would have been happier.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> I have a thing that I like to say. People often say that they 'want' a certain thing. Like my wife would say that she 'wants to have sex with me'. However, what they really mean in that is they 'want to want' the thing.
> 
> If she 'wanted' to have sex with me, she would. What she wishes, was that she wanted to have sex with me. I use the word wish there, because it is the notion that if it just happened, that would be great. She is not going to take proactive steps to make it happen, but if it just did, that sure would be cool.
> 
> ...


This is something that will happen with women who have responsive desire.

If conditions were perfect, they think (and probably actually would) they'd want sex.

But, conditions are never perfect, so there has to be a commitment to start the process even though they aren't aroused at the beginning (and they have to be allowed to call it of if they don't find themselves getting there.

The only thing that makes me wonder if this is the case with your wife is that she "just lays there". On the other hand, you say that she does have an orgasm.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Funny enough, one thing I have learned is that if at any point during the day my W talks about wanting to have sex (i.e. kids and all, would have to wait until nighttime), there is a 97.87625% chance nothing will happen at night lol. At that moment when she says something, she does genuinely want to have sex (especially if we could at that moment). I do think in part, her saying she wanted to have sex, it was like she tried and started something. Not her fault we couldn't actually have sex at that exact moment so her job is done. The problem, when she says something, the idea is planted in my head and it is something I now look forward to as the day comes to an end (sounds similar to what you mentioned, you were showering looking forward to being met by some enthusiasm from your W)


I think that I'd have to tell her that she either needs to be more careful dropping hints throughout the day or be more committed to following up in the evening.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Mrs. T: "My day has been rough! My boss has-"
> 
> Tasorundo: Sorry, but I am feeling rather tired. I don't really feel like listening."
> 
> ...


This is the perfect response to repeated rejection.

However, it looks like the OP's situation is that she doesn't reject him directly, she just discourages him from initiating.

The problem isn't so much that she actually rejects him as that she'll grudgingly offer to follow through with a noted lack of enthusiasm. Then, if he doesn't follow through, "it's not her fault" as she would have had sex if he's pushed it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> I agree the meds have a big role in all of this, but that isnt going to change. Last time we looked at adjusting them, she was hospitalized for a week so she wouldn't kill herself. I took her in, it was not a good time.


uh... I tried to talk my wife into changing her meds, but she was adamant they worked and she wasn't going to mess up with them... I must admit that I thought she had given up on our marriage, but then her health and mental state were more important than my sex life. We tried to compromise but hasn't worked on the long term. Fair enough.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> I just told the full story rather than just the part about her sad face as she made the death march into the shower to throw herself on the altar of our bed for sacrifice.
> 
> That is generally how it goes down when I either don't get a ton of off putting signals early, or just ignore them. What I would like is to not have to ignore them, because they are not flooding in all the time.
> 
> I do pursue her, I am not some passive weeny waiting for scraps. I would like there to be more sex, I would like her to act more like she wanted to be pursued, and I would like her to be more participatory.


This is what we hear all the time, how women need us to act if we want to have sex with them.

It's like "men, if you want to have sex with your wife, here's what you need to do".

What if we're not comfortable prioritizing our sexual needs over our wives apparent lack of sexual desire? I know. No sex for you. Stop whining about it.

Do women have any responsibilities when it comes to keeping the sexual side of the marriage alive?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> I know that a large part of overcoming this current state is on me. I have to fight through it and just go for it.


Why?

Another option is to tell her that you being entirely responsible for the sex part of your relationship is causing you more anguish than it's worth.

If she'd like to take over some of the responsibility to keep your sex life alive, that would be good.

Otherwise, you're just going to assume it's not happening anymore and you'll modify your actions accordingly.

If she asks if this is going to affect your relationship with her, answer "Of course".


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> I agree the meds have a big role in all of this, but that isnt going to change. Last time we looked at adjusting them, she was hospitalized for a week so she wouldn't kill herself. I took her in, it was not a good time.





In Absentia said:


> uh... I tried to talk my wife into changing her meds, but she was adamant they worked and she wasn't going to mess up with them... I must admit that I thought she had given up on our marriage, but then her health and mental state were more important than my sex life. We tried to compromise but hasn't worked on the long term. Fair enough.


NEVER take changing anti-depression meds lightly.

It takes forever to get things right. Then, one has to stop taking the old ones before the new ones are started. Then the new combination doesn't work........

My wife's been perfectly fine; doctor changed her meds and, the next thing you know, throwing herself off of a balcony seems like a good idea.

However, I don't think there's anything in anti-depressants that causes women to stop giving a **** about their husband's happiness.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I think that I'd have to tell her that she either needs to be more careful dropping hints throughout the day or be more committed to following up in the evening.


I actually mentioned it the last time, she agreed, its not intentional, but will probably skip dropping hints. Although, I will say, if we are having a normal/active sex life (like now), I don't have an issue with it if she says something and nothing happens later. It has more to do with when things are off, you get excited that she actually shows some enthusiasm, and then nothing... I would bet most people would feel the same way, the empty promises when things are already bad is not a good thing.,


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Why?


Because I know that she will respond if I do. I have difficulty sustaining the effort time. Things wear down, outside forces creep in, etc.



Buddy400 said:


> NEVER take changing anti-depression meds lightly.
> 
> However, I don't think there's anything in anti-depressants that causes women to stop giving a **** about their husband's happiness.


My background is medicinal chemistry and I know a good bit about medications, etc. While it does not make her stop caring, it does make her emotionally numb, and when you get to that state, you don't really care about much. It is similar to making someone child-like in a lot of ways, they care about their issues, and while they have empathy, it isn't enough to spur action.



Buddy400 said:


> This is what we hear all the time, how women need us to act if we want to have sex with them.
> 
> It's like "men, if you want to have sex with your wife, here's what you need to do".


Yes, everyone has the answer, and they are all different.

I think the most frustrating thing for me is that I know 100 things that turn her off and 0 that turn her on.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Why?
> 
> Another option is to tell her that you being entirely responsible for the sex part of your relationship is causing you more anguish than it's worth.
> 
> ...


Basically what I did with my wife, "it seems to me you a; are incapable of a spontaneous sexual thought, b; are unhappy unless you have total control in this area. I'm done trying, you've got it." We had one more blowout where I had to make it clear that once or twice a month SUCKED and now it is better. 

Turns out she actually cares. 

Your mileage may vary.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> However, I don't think there's anything in anti-depressants that causes women to stop giving a **** about their husband's happiness.


Agreed... but also see Tasorundo's earlier reply to your comment... my wife is a zombie, basically. In order to survive, she takes the pills, the rest is swept under the carpet. Obviously, she cares more about her well-being than my happiness, because she's done pretty much f**** all to meet my needs in a meaningful way. Her problems could be cured with CBT, but she refuses to go because she doesn't want to face her ghosts... this leaves me no option. Live like a monk for the rest of my life or say goodbye after nearly 30 years... I understand that her well-being is more important than me, but it's the refusal to tackle the problem that hurts...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> While it does not make her stop caring, it does make her emotionally numb, and when you get to that state, you don't really care about much. It is similar to making someone child-like in a lot of ways, they care about their issues, and while they have empathy, it isn't enough to spur action.


Pretty much spot on. You have my sympathies. Hopefully, you won't end up where I am right now.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> I think that I'd have to tell her that she either needs to be more careful dropping hints throughout the day or be more committed to following up in the evening.


And the following through needs to be enthusiastic, without sighing and pouting.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

anonmd said:


> Basically what I did with my wife, "it seems to me you a; are incapable of a spontaneous sexual thought, b; are unhappy unless you have total control in this area. I'm done trying, you've got it." We had one more blowout where I had to make it clear that once or twice a month SUCKED and now it is better.
> 
> *Turns out she actually cares.*
> 
> Your mileage may vary.


I'm an optimist. Assuming an otherwise good marriage, I believe things CAN change.

The trick is getting through to your wife just how big an issue it actually is.

It's much harder that one would imagine.

PS. This is regarding wives because I think situations where the man is LD are a different beast.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Agreed... but also see Tasorundo's earlier reply to your comment... my wife is a zombie, basically. In order to survive, she takes the pills, the rest is swept under the carpet. Obviously, she cares more about her well-being than my happiness, because she's done pretty much f**** all to meet my needs in a meaningful way. Her problems could be cured with CBT, but she refuses to go because she doesn't want to face her ghosts... this leaves me no option. Live like a monk for the rest of my life or say goodbye after nearly 30 years... I understand that her well-being is more important than me, but it's *the refusal to tackle the problem that hurts*...


Agreed.

If she was putting serious effort into working on it, that would be completely different.

Even if it didn't result in more sex.

It's the not caring.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> If she was putting serious effort into working on it, that would be completely different.
> 
> Even if it didn't result in more sex.
> 
> It's the not caring.


I agree with that. I think my feelings go back about 10 years or so when we first met with a counselor to help her with depression and our sex life. One of the things she had us do was schedule sex, with the intention that my wife would be mindful of it all day and think about it. A big thing for her as it does not occur to her as something we could be doing. I never felt like she did think about it during the day and when we would have sex on the scheduled day, it was no different than any other.

During that time, I was also forbidding from initiating as my wife said that the thought that I might initiate gave her anxiety when she went to bed.

It was also during this time that she told me that from early on in our marriage that she would lie next to me in bed, knowing that I was desperate for her, but unable/unwilling to do anything about it.

Since then a lot of things have happened, but not much improvement in this area.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> I agree with that. I think my feelings go back about 10 years or so when we first met with a counselor to help her with depression and our sex life. *One of the things she had us do was schedule sex, *with the intention that my wife would be mindful of it all day and think about it. * A big thing for her as it does not occur to her as something we could be doing*. I never felt like she did think about it during the day and when we would have sex on the scheduled day, it was no different than any other.
> 
> *During that time, I was also forbidding from initiating as my wife said that the thought that I might initiate gave her anxiety when she went to bed.*
> 
> ...



yes, we had to schedule sex, because my wife had to decide when having sex. She had to condition herself... put herself in the mood, in her brain. But since she had zero libido, she was unable to understand how desperate I could become. Yes, I got angry over this, but she showed no understanding of me and my needs. I shouldn't have done that, because it had exactly the opposite effect... funnily enough! :laugh:


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

How this for an analogy?

“So imagine after being around your kids for X years all of sudden she was wrongly imprisoned for a crime she didn’t commit. The only time she saw the kids was on visitation day. Now I guarantee that her head would be yearning for the kids when she wasn’t sleeping. Now imagine the kids didn’t feel like coming to see her anymore. It would emotionally destroy her. When they did come, she’d be disappointed because obviously the kids are there out of obligation. So basically you are in jail and your sex life rarely visits you.”


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

aaarghdub said:


> How this for an analogy?
> 
> “So imagine after being around your kids for X years all of sudden she was wrongly imprisoned for a crime she didn’t commit. The only time she saw the kids was on visitation day. Now I guarantee that her head would be yearning for the kids when she wasn’t sleeping. Now imagine the kids didn’t feel like coming to see her anymore. It would emotionally destroy her. When they did come, she’d be disappointed because obviously the kids are there out of obligation. So basically you are in jail and your sex life rarely visits you.”


This is a great analogy. I used to compare it to being starving. There is plenty of food in the house, but all the cabinets are locked up, and I can't access any of it. And every once in awhile, he would unlock the cabinet and throw me enough crackers to keep me from dying.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> This is a great analogy. I used to compare it to being starving. There is plenty of food in the house, but all the cabinets are locked up, and I can't access any of it. And every once in awhile, he would unlock the cabinet and throw me enough crackers to keep me from dying.


it definitely feels like that... :smile2:


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## Pac-Man (Jun 5, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Sometimes I have a crap day, and my tummy is iffy (because of the crap day), and I am worried about my one child who is making questionable decisions.....and even though it doesn't make sense, what I really NEED before I go to sleep is a good romp
> 
> Now, if you have had a season in your marriage where she DID repeatedly avoid sex, then it makes sense that you would be unsure and trying to avoid rejection. BTDT





MJJEAN said:


> Many women like to unpack their day verbally as a way of decompressing and letting it all go so we can move on with our free time. Telling you her woes sounds a lot like she's trying to both let go of her distractions/stress and be emotionally close to you. Women tend to feel more sexually open to their partners when they're emotionally close.
> 
> Remember, sex floods our bodies with a variety of "feel good" chemicals. When your wife says she is tired or has an upset stomach, but is still willing to have sex, believe her! Sex reduces the physical symptoms of stress and tension. Sex gives us that relaxed euphoric feeling. It's actually a really great cure for feeling a bit icky or being unable to relax and sleep.
> 
> Maybe those "roadblocks" aren't actually roadblocks and just perceived as such by you.


Thank you to both of you. It's food for thought.

I have a higher drive than my partner. When she complains about everything bad that happened that day and/or how, tired she is, it gives me the feeling that she's not into it and she consent to duty sex. And I feel bad about it. But I remember that once I said to her that as she doesn't seems to be in the mood, I prefer to abstain. It made her angry. So now, I do it anyway. But it kills the mood.

After reading your posts, I guess I should reframe it as a form of "sexual healing". Then I would be more motivated and would feel good about it.


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## Pac-Man (Jun 5, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> This is a great analogy. I used to compare it to being starving. There is plenty of food in the house, but all the cabinets are locked up, and I can't access any of it. And every once in awhile, he would unlock the cabinet and throw me enough crackers to keep me from dying.


Here's the analogy I used about unenthusiastic sex:

Imagine a guy who, on Valentine's day, come home, throw a rose on the kitchen table and shout:
"YOU'LL FIND YOUR DAMN ROSE ON THE TABLE. NOW YOU WON'T SAY I DID NOTHING FOR VALENTINE'S DAY."
Then he go to watch TV.

Would you feel the love?


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## Flood Light Forty (Jan 30, 2019)

I feel gaslighted every day. It's a terrible feeling that leaves me feeling undesirable. My hd wife became ld.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Pac-Man said:


> Thank you to both of you. It's food for thought.
> 
> I have a higher drive than my partner. When she complains about everything bad that happened that day and/or how, tired she is, it gives me the feeling that she's not into it and she consent to duty sex. And I feel bad about it. But I remember that once I said to her that as she doesn't seems to be in the mood, I prefer to abstain. It made her angry. So now, I do it anyway. But it kills the mood.
> 
> After reading your posts, I guess I should reframe it as a form of "sexual healing". Then I would be more motivated and would feel good about it.


Don't fall into the dangerous trap of equating a woman venting and decompressing from her day with a lack of interest in sex. Now if she's complaining every night about how bad her day was or how tired she is, that's a bigger issue than sex.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Satisfied Mind said:


> Pac-Man said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you to both of you. It's food for thought.
> ...


It's not a dangerous trap. Some women do this deliberately as a way to head off unwanted sexual advances later that night.

It's case specific. The secret is finding out if your wife is doing this as a way to make sure you don't "bother her" for sex later, or if she's just simply grousing about the day.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Livvie said:


> It's not a dangerous trap. Some women do this deliberately as a way to head off unwanted sexual advances later that night.
> 
> It's case specific. The secret is finding out if your wife is doing this as a way to make sure you don't "bother her" for sex later, or if she's just simply grousing about the day.


I should have clarified that it is dangerous to automatically assume that venting is an effort to avoid sex.

And, frankly, if it is, that suggests some fundamental communication issues.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I haven't updated this in a while, but there are a couple things that have happened and a comment:

A couple of weeks ago as the evening was progressing, I was interested in having sex and was trying to do things to initiate. Those are actions/words/etc, being closer to her, touching her, kissing her (at least trying to) and it was all shut down pretty fast with her responses and words about how she was feeling. Nothing that was a not tonight, but I knew she knew what was going on and what I was thinking.

So, we get to bed, and I kiss her, and it was the kind of kiss where you know the other person isn't interested. So the evening consisted of me trying to be aggressive and her shutting it down without addressing it.

I said goodnight and rolled back to my side to go to sleep. After a minute, I thought, I need to say something! So I did. I told her that when we talked a while ago about how I feel when I try to initiate and you passively shut it down. I reminded her how she denied that such things happen. Then pointed out specific examples of how it was happening tonight. She thought for a minute and said something along the lines of 'well, I definitely don't want to have sex tonight, so theres that'.

It isn't really a good update, but at least I was able to point out how it actually does happen and she cannot deny it.

On another note, one day I had to be out late and we are pretty early bed people. So I told her that I would like to have sex when I got home. I got home and she was asleep, so I went to bed. The next morning she asked why I didn't wake her up. I told her that I don't feel comfortable doing that, because you take ambien and I don't want to be the creator of some repressed memory of being raped or having sex against your will (she often does not remember things that happen after she takes it).

She told me that I have her permission to do so in the future. I haven't yet, but the situation hasn't really presented itself.

Finally, earlier this week I laid groundwork all day for us to have sex that evening. I had to be on a conference call from 7-9pm. During that call, she proceeded to drink enough that her speech was slurred and while we did have sex, it was awful, rushed, she didn't want to be touched, and then over.

A recurring story in our marriage is that nights she knows we are going to have sex often involve alcohol in advance. It doesn't make one feel very loved or attractive, whatever the motivations are.

Comment: I have no problem with her venting about her work, that is not what I am talking about. If your wife comes home everyday telling you about their diarrhea, stomach ache, head ache, joint pains, it doesn't paint a picture of a person that wants to have sex.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Sorry to hear the above. Things are significantly better w/ my W and our sex life now (actually have a sex life once again), but I can completely relate to being passively shut down. Even now with my W, and I don't think she is necessarily doing it to shut things down, but when I walk into the house after work and all she talks about is getting the kids to bed so she can go to bed b/c she is so tired, that is pretty much a mood killer. 

So where do you go from here, or just accept this is how it is going to be with your W? It sounds like she has little to no interest in having sex and that may not change (especially since she receives alcohol in advance).


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I think I really paint a much bleaker picture than the reality of it. There have been times before the update that we have had good sex. It is not an everyday problem, it is just a very often problem.

I am making more of an effort to initiate physical touch without it leading to sex, and try to make sure that I engage with her physically and emotionally when I can in the mornings before we part.

There is also the new added stress/happiness of her leaving her current job and going back to working for herself. She is extremely excited about that, but there is a lot of work between here and there. She has been doing it though, and it should start to get easier in a week or two.

Honestly, my hope is to be a good husband/partner/father and to make my expectations known in the hopes that we will continue to progress together to make a mutually happy life.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> If your wife comes home everyday telling you about their diarrhea, stomach ache, head ache, joint pains, it doesn't paint a picture of a person that wants to have sex.


In a way, I'm happy our sex life is over. I remember those times and the terrible pain. But my wife was even cleverer... she would have sex with me and she would be enthusiastic, with a big O (you can't fake those) only to tell me at the end of our sex life that she had sex with me lots of times when she didn't really want to... how to spoil everything. That really has ruined any chance of me having sex with her ever again, even if I'd like to...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Tasorundo said:


> I am making more of an effort to initiate physical touch without it leading to sex, and try to make sure that I engage with her physically and emotionally when I can in the mornings before we part.


Do you think this could lead you to become further frustrated or resentful if you feel like you are making an effort with very little return? That was probably the biggest issue I had in the past.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Do you think this could lead you to become further frustrated or resentful if you feel like you are making an effort with very little return? That was probably the biggest issue I had in the past.


Me too... I never tried that, even if I knew it was the right thing to do... it wasn't just the effort... I found it impossible to do the non sexual touches and cuddling when I was desperate for sex with the woman I married, I loved and desired...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

In Absentia said:


> Me too... I never tried that, even if I knew it was the right thing to do... it wasn't just the effort... I found it impossible to do the non sexual touches and cuddling when I was desperate for sex with the woman I married, I loved and desired...


Yup, that was always the issue for me. I had no issues with non sexual touches, hugs, kisses, etc... but all that stuff just makes me want to be physically closer to my W (for me, one goes hand in hand with the other, they are not mutually exclusive). I would rather not do any of that if there isn't a sex life attached to it vs being nonstop frustrated.

Let's be honest as well, if SO says that they need all the non sexual stuff to desire sex, you make an effort and it doesn't lead to a change on their side, well then really they are just full of it. Instead of just coming out and saying they have no interest, it is easier for them to keep moving the finish line and essentially shift the blame to you.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Yup, that was always the issue for me. I had no issues with non sexual touches, hugs, kisses, etc... but all that stuff just makes me want to be physically closer to my W (for me, one goes hand in hand with the other, they are not mutually exclusive). I would rather not do any of that if there isn't a sex life attached to it vs being nonstop frustrated.
> 
> Let's be honest as well, if SO says that they need all the non sexual stuff to desire sex, you make an effort and it doesn't lead to a change on their side, well then really they are just full of it. Instead of just coming out and saying they have no interest, it is easier for them to keep moving the finish line and essentially shift the blame to you.


My wife was "strange" like that... she understood my problem and she would "give in", but only once or twice a month... maybe she felt sorry for me... but not sorry enough! :laugh:

At one point, at the height of the crisis (about 10 years ago), I moved out of the bedroom... it was torture for me. I did eventually return and things were ok for many many years, until she dropped the bomb... :surprise:

The trouble is, you do the non sexual stuff if you know that it's part of the relationship and that the other side won't be neglected... when you do that and it stays one-sided, sorry that's BS...


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Of course there is the risk that over time I could become bitter or resentful. However, what are the other options? I am not interested in a divorce. Our marriage is great in every other aspect, and even in this aspect it is sometimes also great.

She is my best friend and the person I choose to be with me for everything. It just means there are things we have to work on and she is willing to be a part of that work. Will it ever be amazing all the time, no, but no relationship is.

I have to work on my nice guy problems, and she has to work on her mental aversion to having sex.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> Of course there is the risk that over time I could become bitter or resentful. However, what are the other options? I am not interested in a divorce. Our marriage is great in every other aspect, and even in this aspect it is sometimes also great.
> 
> She is my best friend and the person I choose to be with me for everything. It just means there are things we have to work on and she is willing to be a part of that work. Will it ever be amazing all the time, no, but no relationship is.
> 
> I have to work on my nice guy problems, and she has to work on her mental aversion to having sex.


If she is prepared to work with you, then you are "lucky", since you don't want a divorce. In my experience, when you get to this stage, things never change.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Tasorundo, this may seem off the wall, but do you ever have just a bit of an edge to you? Maybe just a smidgeon of *******?

It is hard to gauge based on what you have written.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Farside, is the **** a word that ends in hole?

I don't really have an edge to me, I am a very nice guy, not a push over, and I don't get walked on outside of my early marriage.

Other than dealing with my son (something about father and son that brings out the worst in me) I am always pretty calm, reasonable, polite, and helpful. I really try to be a good person, to see needs and meet them if I can.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just so that y'all avoid wasting your time... Most people have a fixed service level agreement (SLA) in terms of frequency, etc. That's based on a lot of factors from physiology, health, age, and so on. A cooperative partner will adjust their SLA, or compromise, or be willing to work towards a solution. 

A non cooperative partner... Can be turned around in some cases, but the odds are generally not good about it happening. 

Ultimately it's attitude more than frequency that determines sexual fulfilment.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Tasorundo said:


> *Of course there is the risk that over time I could become bitter or resentful. However, what are the other options? I am not interested in a divorce. Our marriage is great in every other aspect, and even in this aspect it is sometimes also great.
> 
> She is my best friend and the person I choose to be with me for everything. It just means there are things we have to work on and she is willing to be a part of that work. Will it ever be amazing all the time, no, but no relationship is.*
> 
> I have to work on my nice guy problems, and she has to work on her mental aversion to having sex.


Agreed on the bolded. That is the reason why, even when monks were having more sex than me, divorce was not in the cards. If the rest of our relationship had been questionable, than the outcome would likely be a lot different.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ANyone on this thread read Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch? Sounds like it would be helpful.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed on the bolded. That is the reason why, even when monks were having more sex than me, divorce was not in the cards. If the rest of our relationship had been questionable, than the outcome would likely be a lot different.


How can she his "best friend" and the love of his life when she is making him suffer and she doesn't give a monkey about him and his needs? This is why she is walking all over him. I used to think that of my wife. Until I opened my eyes. Sure, she was the love of my life, until she started behaving like a selfish ***hole, totally ignoring my needs. That was the beginning of the end.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

In Absentia said:


> My wife was "strange" like that... she understood my problem and she would "give in", but only once or twice a month... maybe she felt sorry for me... but not sorry enough! :laugh:
> 
> At one point, at the height of the crisis (about 10 years ago), I moved out of the bedroom... it was torture for me. I did eventually return and things were ok for many many years, until she dropped the bomb... :surprise:
> 
> The trouble is, you do the non sexual stuff if you know that it's part of the relationship and that the other side won't be neglected... when you do that and it stays one-sided, sorry that's BS...


You know, the biggest issue for me, as of right now things are great, have been for the last 4 months, no denying that. However, there is a part of me that still remembers vividly how things were in the past. The past is the past, you can't change it, so I have to be careful to not let some of those feelings seep in to things now and sabotage things. 

As well, I still do find myself overthinking things at times. Things are great, but for me at least, they could be better, there is still a little bit of a hole for me in what I am missing. It becomes a balancing act of trying to manage my expectations to a) not sabotage things and b) keep my frustration at a minimum.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

In Absentia said:


> How can she his "best friend" and the love of his life when she is making him suffer and she doesn't give a monkey about him and his needs? This is why she is walking all over him. I used to think that of my wife. Until I opened my eyes. Sure, she was the love of my life, until she started behaving like a selfish ***hole, totally ignoring my needs. That was the beginning of the end.


Well, I am talking more from my standpoint. I find the advice often here is to simply divorce him/her. My point is, it isn't that simple. Sex is just one component of a marriage. For some, it is such a huge component, that if there is any dropoff the relationship is dead, I get that. However, when there are all other aspects of the relationship that are great, it is a much more complicated picture, IMO.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Well, I am talking more from my standpoint. I find the advice often here is to simply divorce him/her. My point is, it isn't that simple. Sex is just one component of a marriage. For some, it is such a huge component, that if there is any dropoff the relationship is dead, I get that. However, when there are all other aspects of the relationship that are great, it is a much more complicated picture, IMO.


Ok, I agree when you put it like this... in fact, I was prepared to stay even with a very low frequency, because I could see that my wife was making an effort, despite all her issues. But we are sexless now... :laugh:

Still, I believe the OP should make some sort of stronger stand...


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I do not think my wife chooses to hurt me or to not be sexual. I think it is deeply ingrained in her from her mother and her surroundings growing up.

I honestly think she has some CSA issues, but she denies that. Therapists and counselors have also asked the same question of her based on her behaviors. It is always met with a denial. Who knows, perhaps her inability to express her feelings comes from a repressed child hood CSA issue and she has taught herself to bottle everything up.

She really is my best friend, we spend out time together laughing, enjoying life, helping each other and getting a long very well. In fact, sex and our son are the only areas of any conflict at all.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> I do not think my wife chooses to hurt me or to not be sexual. I think it is deeply ingrained in her from her mother and her surroundings growing up.
> 
> I honestly think she has some CSA issues, but she denies that. Therapists and counselors have also asked the same question of her based on her behaviors. It is always met with a denial. Who knows, perhaps her inability to express her feelings comes from a repressed child hood CSA issue and she has taught herself to bottle everything up.
> 
> She really is my best friend, we spend out time together laughing, enjoying life, helping each other and getting a long very well. In fact, sex and our son are the only areas of any conflict at all.


So, you don't think that, in the long term, the lack of sex will drive you apart? You won't miss the deeper (no pun intended) connection? We are now sexless, and our bond is completely gone. We are friends. Is that what you want ultimately? Because it might happen...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> Farside, is the **** a word that ends in hole?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, indeed it is that word.

Here's the thing, brother. When I have a bit of an edge to me, my wife is a whole lot more interested in pursuing me, giving me affection, etc...little things like walking into a room, looking around to make sure that our son isn't in there, and then flashing me her boobs with a smile.

I'm not sure if you know my history, but a sexless marriage is what brought me to this site in 2014. The aforementioned action would have never happened a few years ago, and any attempt by me for a quick, flirty grope would have been met with vitriol. 

I found that when I have an edge, or just a touch of ******* to me, her demeanour to me is completely different. 

Make no mistake, it's a very fine line. Occasionally I overdo it. 

But the biggest aspect of it that I see as important is to be unapologetically me. 

Who is "me"? Someone who uses an empty aisle in the grocery store for a quick bite on the neck, or a gentle touch of her butt. Someone who comes up behind her while she is getting ready in the morning to nibble on her ear. Someone who whispers in her ear what I want to do to her later. A sexual being who wants to be sexual with her. 

The less apologetic I am for being me, the more she responds to it. Granted, other things need to be in place, such as emotional intimacy and such. 

Just something to think about.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> How can she his "best friend" and the love of his life when she is making him suffer and she doesn't give a monkey about him and his needs? This is why she is walking all over him. I used to think that of my wife. Until I opened my eyes. Sure, she was the love of my life, until she started behaving like a selfish ***hole, totally ignoring my needs. That was the beginning of the end.


She's not making him suffer. 

His participation in the marriage is voluntary.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Of course I don't want that. Could it happen? Sure it could. Could everything get better? Also possible. Could it all stay the same? Seems likely.

Here's the thing, even if it stays the same, we have had sex 3 times in the last 7 days, 2 of those fairly good, 1 kind of a mess. She does make an effort, and she doesn't like to cause me pain.

There are good times and bad times. The original post was in a pretty bad time, with a lot of outside influences on it as well. Sleeping in separate rooms doing a renovation, cost and time overruns, issues at her job, etc.

I am not making excuses, but this post was started during a low with a lot of causes.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> we have had sex 3 times in the last 7 days, 2 of those fairly good, 1 kind of a mess.



I would take that... :laugh:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> She's not making him suffer.
> 
> His participation in the marriage is voluntary.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk



Of course it's voluntary, but they are still married, with all that goes with it, sex included... she might not do it on purpose, but he is still suffering.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I found that when I have an edge, or just a touch of ******* to me, her demeanour to me is completely different.


Funny enough for me, and i don't know if you want to call it being edgy or taking a stand, but flat out telling my W that I no longer wanted to have sex with her seemed to really shake things out. I have a feeling based on other member posts here, some spouses would actually be relieved to hear those words :surprise:

Maybe my edge is my new prison look lol


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Of course it's voluntary, but they are still married, with all that goes with it, sex included... she might not do it on purpose, but he is still suffering.


So are you are saying his willingness to remain in the marriage is her fault?

You need to drill down your sense of accountability, IA.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Funny enough for me, and i don't know if you want to call it being edgy or taking a stand, but flat out telling my W that I no longer wanted to have sex with her seemed to really shake things out. I have a feeling based on other member posts here, some spouses would actually be relieved to hear those words :surprise:
> 
> Maybe my edge is my new prison look lol


Lol. Do you have a teardrop tattoo to go with that look?

If a declaration such as yours is received with relief, the marriage is effectively over.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Lol. Do you have a teardrop tattoo to go with that look?
> 
> If a declaration such as yours is received with relief, the marriage is effectively over.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


White tshirt with pack of smokes under my sleeve 

Yup, if my response was met with anything other than "that is not acceptable / we need to fix it", then at least I would have had better clarity on the direction of my marriage.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> So are you are saying his willingness to remain in the marriage is her fault?



No, I would say 50-50... he is enabling her. Don't worry, he will get fed up with it, eventually.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I am pretty sure I am not going to walk out on this. It has been 24 years and it is way better than it was at its worst.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tasorundo said:


> I am pretty sure I am not going to walk out on this. It has been 24 years and it is way better than it was at its worst.


That's what I said at year 25 too.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Tasorundo said:


> I am pretty sure I am not going to walk out on this. It has been 24 years and it is way better than it was at its worst.


I've been meaning to ask if sex was different earlier in the marriage. Sorry if I missed that in the thread history. Or has it always been this way where you ask, she accepts, but just become more reluctant over time?

If it was once good, I would say appeal to getting back to that. Ask her what would work to help restore that stage of the relationship.

My first 15-17 sex was effortless and had sex and even though I have always been the initiator, she would give affection, flirts, or hints as to here interest that made her approachable to initiating. She was quite sexual in the earlier years. Then a few years ago, it stopped. Then she acted surprised that I might want to have sex more than once a month as if it was always that way. I'm like, am I crazy or did you just becaome unattracted to me? When indicated that she didn't seem to feel the same way she used to I was told, "this is all in your head, everything is fine." She actually as gaslighting me and made me feel like I was being phycho in order to avoid talking about it (I guess.) I know she loved me and did a lot of things for me, but she didn't want to be affectionate and that obviously was the missing piece that was making me feel bad. I know it wasn't intentional. She just didn't want to.

So when I had the talk with her, I basically asked her to help me get us back to our old love life. Sort of the "in love" state if you will. She seemed to have a bit of amnesia, or disagree on how often we used to have sex but I remembered, reminded her, and was clear that I wasn't happy, not OK with coexisting platonically.

So do you have a history to return to? Or is this something that was just sort of good enough but got worse?


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I would say the beginning was the worst.

1-10 pretty bad
11-17 maybe a little better, but ended with my ONS
18-19 best
20-24 not so great, lots of outside stresses during the worst parts

There were lots of warning signs pre-marriage that I just didn't notice or felt would go away. I was 19, what did I really know about reading such signs anyway. There was always a lot of talk about looking forward to marriage and sex (from her side), that just never materialized once we were married.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

So this has always been a bit like pulling teeth. I can suggest you talk to her about exploring ways of improving your sex life and possibly come up with a routine. This may make her feel more comfortable and prepared. And I would suggest going outside the box get her on-board trying something new things each time. I don't know if that's a different position, role-play, clothing, toys, techniques, or what. Some of it ends badly, but maybe you'll find something that surprised you both. I don't know. I feel like you need some out of the box drastic thinking.

One prior girlfriend messed me up (long story.) Another dumped me on the spot when I tried something different one day that she found offensive. So I was often afraid to try something too crazy with my wife and always kept it pretty safe. Fifteen years went by and one day I somewhat accidentally discovered that she likes me to be very dominant. Spanking, hair pulling, being pinned down, and somewhat forceful. She gets off on feeling like I've got total control with an alpha-dominance and being manhandled. But only one she's finally turned on. I never knew and once I did sex got even better. It's not every time but sometimes at the right time I read her and I know, it's time to step it up. Of course, there is a fine line between not enough, too much, and when to do it and it has been a learning process.
I mean, I'm really not naturally like that. I do it for her, not for me. But it is fun nonetheless.

I'm not saying this is the answer for her. What I'm saying is that there might be something she likes that you haven't discovered somewhere in the realm of sexual activity in the bedroom. You sound like a nice, gentle guy. She sounds like she has hang-ups.

It's seems weird to re-discover sexual activity 24 years into a marriage, but you never know. See if you can get her on board with trying something... anything new. Make it a thing for a while? There has to be something that turns her on. Maybe find it?

Just an idea.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

JamesTKirk said:


> Fifteen years went by and one day I somewhat accidentally discovered that she likes me to be very dominant. .


there is this site called MojoUpgrade.com
You both log in there, privately one at a time, and take a "kinkiness test"
It then reports back ONLY on items you both indicated you were curious to try.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Talker67 said:


> there is this site called MojoUpgrade.com
> You both log in there, privately one at a time, and take a "kinkiness test"
> It then reports back ONLY on items you both indicated you were curious to try.


Hmm. I may have to look into this. :smile2:


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