# Myth: "They Come Crawling Back"



## bandit.45

How many times on the CWI threads do you read a well-meaning poster say something to the affect that "...once the OM/OW dumps your WS, your WS will realize they are about to lose everything and come _crawling back _to beg you to forgive them. 

All of the anecdotal evidence I have read and seen on TAM over the past four years tell a vastly different story of how waywards act. Very few are truly repentant. This fantasy that wayward spouses somehow, at some point, have an epiphany that they have destroyed their life by leaving their BS for another, and come "crawling back" just seems to me to be a pipe dream. 

From what I have seen, 99% of the wayward spouses who do eventually break off their affairs and come back to their BSs do so only because they got thrown under the bus by their AP, and have no other options, and even then their willingness to work on reconciliation is conditional: 

_"Well, I admit that having an affair was wrong and I'm sorry for hurting you, but I'm not sorry for having an affair because I needed something that you were not providing me..."_

_"Well, I am willing to work on our marriage, but I am still in love with my AP, so don't expect me to just act like your spouse for a long time. And I am not ready to have sex with you, so don't even ask."_ 

_"If I come back there are going to be some changes..."_

_"Why do we have to keep talking about this? Can't we just move on with our lives?"
_
And so on... ad nausea....

Now, to be clear, I'm not talking about WSs who get busted for having a one night stand. They are a different category. Usually when they get busted they fess up and beg forgiveness. I'm mainly referring to WSs who have been engaged in an ongoing affair and have developed a strong relationship with their AP. 

These are the spouses who gave great thought to leaving their spouse and the marriage for the AP, engaged in a short to lengthy affair, and were found out at some point by their spouse, but determined to continue on with the affair knowing it would end their marriage. 

My question to you all is...are we doing a disservice to the newbie BSs who come on to TAM asking for our advice when we tell them something like this?

It just seems like we are stetting them up for disappointment.


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## alte Dame

I agree completely. It's also instructive to read the posts by waywards who have been busted. While the BS is relieved to have the A 'over', the WS is often consumed with thoughts of the AP and actively trying to decide whether it's worth staying in the M. The WS's usually don't vocalize this. 

Showing them what they have to lose is definitely not a magic bullet for remorse and reconciliation.


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## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> How many times on the CWI threads do you read a well-meaning poster say something to the affect that "...once the OM/OW dumps your WS, your WS will realize they are about to lose everything and come _crawling back _to beg you to forgive them.
> 
> All of the anecdotal evidence I have read and seen on TAM over the past four years tell a vastly different story of how waywards act. Very few are truly repentant. This fantasy that wayward spouses somehow, at some point, have an epiphany that they have destroyed their life by leaving their BS for another, and come "crawling back" just seems to me to be a pipe dream.
> 
> From what I have seen, 99% of the wayward spouses who do eventually break off their affairs and come back to their BSs do so only because they got thrown under the bus by their AP, and have no other options, and even then their willingness to work on reconciliation is conditional:
> 
> _"Well, I admit that having an affair was wrong and I'm sorry for hurting you, but I'm not sorry for having an affair because I needed something that you were not providing me..."_
> 
> _"Well, I am willing to work on our marriage, but I am still in love with my AP, so don't expect me to just act like your spouse for a long time. And I am not ready to have sex with you, so don't even ask."_
> 
> _"If I come back there are going to be some changes..."_
> 
> _"Why do we have to keep talking about this? Can't we just move on with our lives?"
> _
> And so on... ad nausea....
> 
> Now, to be clear, I'm not talking about WSs who get busted for having a one night stand. They are a different category. Usually when they get busted they fess up and beg forgiveness. I'm mainly referring to WSs who have been engaged in an ongoing affair and have developed a strong relationship with their AP.
> 
> These are the spouses who gave great thought to leaving their spouse and the marriage for the AP, engaged in a short to lengthy affair, and were found out at some point by their spouse, but determined to continue on with the affair knowing it would end their marriage.
> 
> My question to you all is...are we doing a disservice to the newbie BSs who come on to TAM asking for our advice when we tell them something like this?
> 
> It just seems like we are stetting them up for disappointment.


In other words, you feel that we should tell BSs whose spouses are having serious affairs that they should divorce right away?


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## Thound

And that's why I would never consider reconciling.


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## bandit.45

sidney2718 said:


> In other words, you feel that we should tell BSs whose spouses are having serious affairs that they should divorce right away?


Not at all. 

Just that BSs should never plan on the WS to come "crawling back or "grovelling" for forgiveness. I honestly cannot remember the most recent thread on TAM where such behavior actually occurred.


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## GusPolinski

Kinda depends on what you'd consider "crawling".

I'd imagine that -- in the majority of cases involving a wayward looking for an ex post facto reconciliation -- what's most commonly seen is a pride-addled (and maybe even insincere) request "to talk". Depending on a number of factors, once said request is accepted, the wayward probably has at least a decent chance of steering the conversation from that point forward.

Not exactly what I'd call "crawling".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

My ex wife wanted to "talk" when she ran out of money, and presumably stopped screwing the other man.

Oddly enough, within a week of our divorce being finalized. And I was dating the woman who became my wife, and she heard about it.

My current wife didn't "come crawling back" given she never left to begin with and crawling isn't exactly her MO.

But she did change her tune when I stopped emoting and started acting.

I can tell you three cases in my personal life where the spouse wanted to come back after the affair petered out, or the spouse had enough and threw them out.

They all didn't work out, BTW.

So for me, if it became physical, I'd just divorce.


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## MJJEAN

bandit.45 said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Just that BSs should never plan on the WS to come "crawling back or "grovelling" for forgiveness. I honestly cannot remember the most recent thread on TAM where such behavior actually occurred.


I've seen some posters here and on LS mention WS's who came begging back, but I think the majority of the minority that did come begging back seemed to do so because their lifestyle would dramatically decrease if they didn't.

I also agree with you. I've seen a few things said commonly that aren't true for most AP's in my experience.

That the WS will "come out of the fog" and realize they "blew up their lives", "realize what they lost", and try to come crawling back, is one of the worst. I can't imagine how many held on to false hopes because someone said that to them.

While I am sure some come crawling back, the truth is that a lot of them do it for practical reasons. They're choosing the path of least resistance.


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## Marduk

MJJEAN said:


> I've seen some posters here and on LS mention WS's who came begging back, but I think the majority of the minority that did come begging back seemed to do so because their lifestyle would dramatically decrease if they didn't.
> 
> I also agree with you. I've seen a few things said commonly that aren't true for most AP's in my experience.
> 
> That the WS will "come out of the fog" and realize they "blew up their lives", "realize what they lost", and try to come crawling back, is one of the worst. I can't imagine how many held on to false hopes because someone said that to them.
> 
> While I am sure some come crawling back, the truth is that a lot of them do it for practical reasons. They're choosing the path of least resistance.


In my experience it's the practical considerations that end the fog, and it's the practical considerations that make then try to come back. 

It's also why I think white knighting your spouse is so bad. It sets them up for expecting a delusional life "just because."

I've seen it enough that I'm very jaded to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostme

I wouldn't want them back(and didn't take mine back), they would have to crawl elsewhere.


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## joannacroc

It's a lovely fantasy, that they can come crawling back so you can tell them to f&*^ off. But it's a fantasy. There was definitely no crawling. The closest I got was ex-H saying he "still wants to work on the marriage" and that I looked good. And that was it. No apology for the pain he caused me, or the upheaval he created in our son's life. Just that he still wanted to work on it and still loved me. He hasn't changed at all. If I were to ask him about the cheating, I bet he'd come up with justifications. But I just don't care (beyond a mild annoyance at him and a wish he would get his life together so he could make some financial and emotional contributions to our son's life), what is going on in his life. It's a little sad that we were partners in life and that I genuinely don't really care if he's struggling or not, if it doesn't effect my son. But there it is.


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## Rowan

Well, in all fairness, my serial cheating ex-husband did come "crawling" back asking for another chance. What he did not do, however, is beg for forgiveness. Because in his mind, he didn't really do anything wrong. He was basically waiting for me to get over being mad at him and come to my senses and take him back. I think he truly believed, even for months after our divorce was final, that I would get over it and come home so we could resume our marriage. When I didn't seem to be doing that on his schedule, he did make a stab at faking remorse and begging for another chance. If I had been weaker or less aware of the reality of him at that point, I might have mistaken it for the real thing.

The reality, though, was that actually being a single man wasn't nearly as great as having a wife and family at home while playing around like a single man. He needed both a wife and a string of affairs. The affairs alone weren't cooking his meals, doing his laundry, handling his family and social obligations, hosting his parties, keeping up with his appointments, and generally managing the realities of life. He needed a wife for that, so why not see if his ex-wife was still interested in the position. It would certainly have been more convenient that hiring and training a new candidate. 

Profound narcissism is such an interesting trait.


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## bandit.45

There have been a couple of incidents where a WS has a mental or emotional breakdown. Morituri's XWW ended up in a psych hospital after he refused to take her back, and I remember a couple others...


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## Maxo

I agree. Most of these cheaters have a personality disorder. Those folks do not apologize or ever admit wrongdoing except, perhaps to manipulate.


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## joannacroc

Maxo said:


> I agree. Most of these cheaters have a personality disorder. Those folks do not apologize or ever admit wrongdoing except, perhaps to manipulate.


To be fair, some of them probably don't and may have been deeply unhappy due to a profound fault in their spouse, but it was their choice to cheat. I will never buy into the whole "I did it because x y z" mentality. At the end of the day, there isn't really an excuse. It boggles the mind that the OM or OM never seems to question what kind of s&*(y person would cheat on their spouse with them. Maybe they manipulate. Or maybe they genuinely believe the reasons they give themselves that justify their cheating. Meh. Whatever. At the end of the day, does it really make a difference?


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## SunCMars

Bandit .45 caliber (.45 seconds to call it a bear, call for a beer) quote:

"My question to you all is...are we doing a disservice to the newbie BSs who come on to TAM asking for our advice when we tell them something like this?"

"It just seems like we are stetting them up for disappointment." 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is a dis-service if that is the message and it seems to be the message [perception is reality]. True, the crawling-back part is rarely guaranteed by TAM, [newbie rookies advisors may spout it erringly]. 

When employed, it is often couched "as a possible" outcome. And that is good. Push it as a possibility.

Why?-------> We know the WAW, WS, WW, WH, will {likely not} come back when stuck with the barbed cattle prods of TAM pro advisors, viz., The 180, hit the WS with D-Papers, Expose, Expose, etc. 

If we tell the BS's up-front, at the onset THAT ALL ACTION BY THEM IS FUTILE and HE/SHE ain't coming back, then they [often] will not go through with the 180 or the serving of D- papers and exposure. 

Oh yeah baby, the TAM pros cloud the help seekers a tad and for good reasons. TAMer's know the drill, how these things OFTEN unfold. TAM pros can shorten the [grieving, anger, anxiety] process and get things going in the [hopefully] right direction.

Bandit. There is a term called closure. You must have closure if you ever hope to get over your grief and anxiety. Knowing the spouse may feel guilt is a good thing. What better thing could happen to a BS then when a WS comes a-beggin. 

TAMers give Hope that this MIGHT happen. Temper that hope with honest disclaimers and not in small print. Many cannot read small-print. There are a lot of skimmers in this world. They can't see the forest for the trees, or the words spelled out in a blog. Grief and anxiety exacerbate and encourage word skimming by da-readers.....

Hope is good!


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## betrayed16

They don't typically come crawling back, but most do eventually put out feelers from what I've read and heard. Once the affair ends they want their old familiar life back. A counselor-in-training friend actually said that to me the other day. She works with troubled teens, but I'm guessing she's studied the topic a little from a human behavior standpoint. 

My ex tried to call me last week, so I changed my number. That ship sailed a long time ago.


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## Marduk

betrayed16 said:


> They don't typically come crawling back, but most do eventually put out feelers from what I've read and heard. Once the affair ends they want their old familiar life back. A counselor-in-training friend actually said that to me the other day. She works with troubled teens, but I'm guessing she's studied the topic a little from a human behavior standpoint.
> 
> My ex tried to call me last week, so I changed my number. That ship sailed a long time ago.


Yup.


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## PhillyGuy13

I haven't counted them, this is purely anecdotal.

More often than not it seems like there are many BS who accept back the WS but often those terms are set by the WS. I can't think of many/any where the BS has laid out conditions where the WS agrees to them all.

What comes to mind is the thread from a couple years ago, couple was separated geographically due to work, gentleman was in Europe with the kids, wife in the States enjoying her "freedom". She laid out when she was ending the affair, when she was returning to the family, dictated the whole "reconciliation"

I also wonder, again, purely anecdotal, it seems to me the wife, be she betrayed or wayward, seems to set the tone as to reconcile, divorce, or status quo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

If a BS improves and starts living well, the WS often, gets envious and angry, or start to genuinely come out of Lala land and see their AP isn't all that great and want what they threw away.

Both still incredibly selfish responses.

If the BS goes south and spirals downwards, the WS either feels a pang of sorrow but may or may not return or feels justified in choosing their AP.

Often anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

*In my case, I have been unceremoniously "hosed" by adultery twice. Guess I'm just a damned glutton for punishment or the world's foremost fool!

Since having had the good fortune to find my way over here to TAM, I have only advocated the horrible truth of my experiences as a BS in both of my marriages! As always, I try to present my opinions in the most humorous way possible! I'd much rather sense someones laughter or smiles much rather than their tears, but am amply equipped to deal with the latter! 
.
And although I am quite prejudiced in my expositions, I do not always advocate hasty separation and divorce as everyone's infidelity case dossier usually always contains either certain variations on their very own case of betrayal, or even a whole new and different set of facts!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nomorebeans

Many people here and elsewhere have told me that when my ex's "relationship" with the woman he left me for crashes and burns, he'll come crawling back. I've maintained from the beginning that I don't believe that'll ever happen. See, she isn't going to allow it to crash and burn. She'd have to be dragged away from him kicking and screaming with her teeth marks still in him if he tried to end it, and he's the type who will put up with just about any kind of psychosis imaginable as long as he's getting sex regularly. She thinks she landed herself a real prize. It took me 27 years to realize he's a narcissist - I doubt she'll get clued in on that any time soon. 

The closest he came to any real remorse was lamenting a few months ago that he was sorry he lied to me and didn't leave honorably. He's not sorry about the affair or continuing to live with her 10 minutes away from my house. If he's sorry about the upheaval he's caused to our son's life, he hasn't said so. I don't think he realizes he has. Since our son isn't openly hostile towards him and fairly willingly spends time with him, he thinks he's doing just fine. I know he does, because he says all the time without my asking, "He's doing just fine." It doesn't concern him that he hasn't told his friends we're divorced yet (he was always gone for work when he lived here, so they haven't thought anything of his absence when they come over, and 13-year-old boys don't notice things like a lack of men's belongings around the house lately).

I do think it's possible that when I finally start seeing someone again, he'll be jealous. But not out of any actual love for me. He'll just be annoyed that all evidence points to my no longer pining away for him anymore and having moved on.


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## Hantei

I'm not sure if I am allowed to post in other threads but the quoted bit describes what I believe is going to happen in my case to the T.
As we say "She'll be right" - taken literally. 




Nomorebeans said:


> Many people here and elsewhere have told me that when my ex's "relationship" with the woman he left me for crashes and burns, he'll come crawling back. I've maintained from the beginning that I don't believe that'll ever happen. See, she isn't going to allow it to crash and burn. She'd have to be dragged away from him kicking and screaming with her teeth marks still in him if he tried to end it, and he's the type who will put up with just about any kind of psychosis imaginable as long as he's getting sex regularly. She thinks she landed herself a real prize. It took me 27 years to realize he's a narcissist - I doubt she'll get clued in on that any time soon.
> 
> The closest he came to any real remorse was lamenting a few months ago that he was sorry he lied to me and didn't leave honorably. He's not sorry about the affair or continuing to live with her 10 minutes away from my house. If he's sorry about the upheaval he's caused to our son's life, he hasn't said so. I don't think he realizes he has. Since our son isn't openly hostile towards him and fairly willingly spends time with him, he thinks he's doing just fine. I know he does, because he says all the time without my asking, "He's doing just fine." It doesn't concern him that he hasn't told his friends we're divorced yet (he was always gone for work when he lived here, so they haven't thought anything of his absence when they come over, and 13-year-old boys don't notice things like a lack of men's belongings around the house lately).
> 
> I do think it's possible that when I finally start seeing someone again, he'll be jealous. But not out of any actual love for me. He'll just be annoyed that all evidence points to my no longer pining away for him anymore and having moved on.


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## bandit.45

Hantei said:


> I'm not sure if I am allowed to post in other threads but the quoted bit describes what I believe is going to happen in my case to the T.
> As we say "She'll be right" - taken literally.


I've heard that term. An Aussie friend told me it means "you're fvcked..."


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## honcho

While the he/she will come crawling back when affairland falls apart it can lead to false hope but it can also be a warning to be ready in case they do try. 

Usually if the script is followed by the time affairs end the WS has done so much other damage with the lies and rewriting of history that it makes it near impossible to "come clean" and try to return whether they want to or not. On day one does the BS grasp onto false hope? Yes probably. How long the BS holds onto the hope is up to them. 

I know in my case everyone told me she would crawl back, half told me with the intention of hope, half as a warning. Heck even the OM told my friends a week before he tossed her when he was going to do it, not to feed my hope but to get ready in case the freakshow came back. 

One of the other Tam standards is you will find someone better and be much happier. Nobody knows this for sure but it's intended to make people feel better at the time.


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## TeddieG

Nomorebeans said:


> The closest he came to any real remorse was lamenting a few months ago that he was sorry he lied to me and didn't leave honorably. And the only reason he's sharing that is to relieve HIS conscience, which is classic narcissist behavior, assuming a narcissist has one. He's not sorry about the affair or continuing to live with her 10 minutes away from my house. If he's sorry about the upheaval he's caused to our son's life, he hasn't said so. I don't think he realizes he has. Since our son isn't openly hostile towards him and fairly willingly spends time with him, he thinks he's doing just fine. I know he does, because he says all the time without my asking, "He's doing just fine." It doesn't concern him that he hasn't told his friends we're divorced yet (he was always gone for work when he lived here, so they haven't thought anything of his absence when they come over, and 13-year-old boys don't notice things like a lack of men's belongings around the house lately).
> 
> I do think it's possible that when I finally start seeing someone again, he'll be jealous. *But not out of any actual love for me.* He'll just be annoyed that all evidence points to my no longer pining away for him anymore and having moved on. Like a classic narcissist, if you're not serving him, he'll just get pissed and blame you for not playing the game his way.


Sad, isn't it, that something remotely resembling remorse is really still just all about him?


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## TeddieG

honcho said:


> While the he/she will come crawling back when affairland falls apart it can lead to false hope but it can also be a warning to be ready in case they do try.
> 
> Usually if the script is followed by the time affairs end the WS has done so much other damage with the lies and rewriting of history that it makes it near impossible to "come clean" and try to return whether they want to or not. Yes and the really sad thing is that, no matter how much we may not have much empathy for the OM or OW, by the time the affair ends the OW/OM may have been damaged by the bull shyte our f-ed up spouse or former spouse may have visited on themOn day one does the BS grasp onto false hope? Yes probably. How long the BS holds onto the hope is up to them.
> 
> I know in my case everyone told me she would crawl back, half told me with the intention of hope, half as a warning. Heck even the OM told my friends a week before he tossed her when he was going to do it, not to feed my hope but to get ready in case the freakshow came back.
> 
> One of the other Tam standards is you will find someone better and be much happier. Nobody knows this for sure but it's intended to make people feel better at the time.


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## ThePheonix

bandit.45 said:


> From what I have seen, 99% of the wayward spouses who do eventually break off their affairs and come back to their BSs do so only because they got thrown under the bus by their AP, and have no other options, and even then their willingness to work on reconciliation is conditional:


From what I've seen, its not the WS that wants to come crawling back. Its typically the BS wanting them back (because they are beautiful and they love them so much) and seeking and receiving advice to "blow up the affair" via various methods so they'll "come out of the fog" and mosey back home because the BS wants to R.


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## Dyokemm

I agree it is mostly a pipe dream scenario.....despite the fact that my cheating LTgf did exactly this 8 months after I gave her the boot.

I told her to go pound sand.

I had ZERO interest in giving a disgusting traitor a second chance.

THAT is something I always have a hard time understanding.

I always try to support what a BS says they want and offer the best advice I can on how to have the best chance of getting R if they say its their goal.

But, on a personal level, I can't understand for the life of me WHY they would want such a horror show back for their partner.


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## Thor

I think usually it is given as a warning. If you do these things and put consequences on your WS, chances are their AP is going to dump them. Then your WS has no good options but to come crawling back in the hopes you're dumb enough to take him/her back. You're their meal ticket. When their fantasy blows up they'll get a bit desperate.


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## larry.gray

In my personal life, I know of two cases where the WS came back (one man, one woman). But it was many years later when they realized what a mess they made of out everything. In both cases, the BS had moved on, remarried and not a chance in hell in taking their WS back.


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## Marc878

Rarely.

A few maybe but for the most part if it does survive it's a roommate existence.

You pour water on a nice warm fire good luck getting it relit. That's for the WS as well as the BS.

The dynamics can never be the same again except for maybe a small %.


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## Satya

Rather than give a BS any possible false hope about the WS, my preference is to stay focused on what the BS can DO. 

Just because a WS may "come back" (for any reason) does not mean they have to be taken back. 

If we as contributors do our part, (as I see it anyway), the BS learn to become less codependent and capable of making their own rational choice, with eyes unclouded by all the heightened emotions that usually direct people to what they WISH, not always what IS.


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## farsidejunky

Thor said:


> I think usually it is given as a warning. If you do these things and put consequences on your WS, chances are their AP is going to dump them. Then your WS has no good options but to come crawling back in the hopes you're dumb enough to take him/her back. You're their meal ticket. When their fantasy blows up they'll get a bit desperate.


This exactly. I say it as a forewarning in case they don't have the resistance.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## LongWalk

i agree with you, Bandit. _They will come crawling back_ is like women's romantic fiction. There is a particular ending that appeals to people. Crawling back suggests enlightenment. The wayward spouse realizes that they made a mistake; they thought they could live without the betrayed spouse but they couldn't.

But what exactly couldn't they live without?

Financial security? The partners smell? They way there look when they laugh? Going to the kids sports competitions together in the SUV?

To begin with there are all sorts of affairs and all sorts of people.

If Honcho or GoodGuy's ex come crawling back, so what. That is just a new annoying mind game.

Acoa's wife would probably crawl back but so what? She would still be broken inside.

Road Scholar reconciled but his wife begged him not to divorce but still refused to crawl. She had to actually reduce the narcissistic traits of her character for him to accept her. His disapproval became the stick, his approval the carrot. In this sort of reconciliation, the wayward knows that any repeat transgression will lead directly to divorce. This the happy ending, they value their spouse highly for their qualities.

I don't believe, for example, that Hillary Clinton took her husband Bill back because he crawled. He was serial cheater. She took him back because divorce would have ruined the image they constructed together.

If Bill had regrets, they were probably that he didn't have hotter women. Hillary's emotional relationship with Huma Abedin is way more important to her psychologically than the business alliance she has with Bill. If Bill or Hillary crawl back after cheating, they are still liars. If a liar sincerely crawls, it is often more pathetic than moving.


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## Chaparral

I think we get fewer success stories than what happens. If 35% of couples reconcile, the record at sites like this is pretty poor. I think that is because most people hit the ceiling, throw the cheater out and the real world isn't so warm and fuzzy.

The problem here is how long it takes to get the BS to quit nicing their cheating spouse back. Let's face it, after the first couple of pages you can tell who is going to make it and who has no chance.

If 35% of couples reconcile but 45% of women reconcile, does that mean only about 15-20% of men will reconcile with a cheating wife? 

I have read 80% of couples WISH they would have stayed together and worked it out.

Bandi, didn't your wife want to reconcile? My fiance and i did, but it was never the same and i cut her loose two years out.


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## Pluto2

Well, my serial cheating ex never hinted at coming back. I'm not surprised since he honestly is incapable of admitting any fault. Would I have taken him back-NO. But based on reading here, I was waiting for an attempt on his part. His own emotional baggage clearly prevented it.

so yes, I agree, telling BS that the WS "will" come crawling back is a disservice. The truth is that reconciliation is rare, not the norm.


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## ThePheonix

Chaparral said:


> If 35% of couples reconcile but 45% of women reconcile, does that mean only about 15-20% of men will reconcile with a cheating wife?


My take on the men, based anecdotally, is that only 15-20% of the men reconcile because the woman is no longer in to them and not interested in reconciliation; hence their often proposed "conditions" that make it impossible. 
Just because a spouse returns after sowing a few post marriage oats doesn't mean she now has realized you were really the cats pajamas. Often times youre nothing more than a familiar place to hang their hat.


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## betrayed16

Pluto2 said:


> so yes, I agree, telling BS that the WS "will" come crawling back is a disservice. The truth is that reconciliation is rare, not the norm.


Reconciliation is rare, but the WS making some attempt at coming back is not. In Private Lies, Dr. Pittman says that in the majority of cases it is the BS that gets the final decision. Reconciliation is rare because by the time the WS makes any kind of effort the BS has moved on. In cases where the WS does not make an attempt, I'd say it's very possible that the BS has already telegraphed that they're done, so the WS doesn't see a point.

It's important that the BS be prepared in case the WS does make an attempt to come back. As has been stated, more often than not they are not sincere in their motives. They just want back what is familiar to them. The BS must lay down the law or they're setting themselves up for a false recovery. I've seen so many instances of false recovery it's scary.

Seeking out the familiar is human nature. We need to be careful not to give false hope, but we also need to prepare people for the possibilities.


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## Marduk

The way I would put it if it were happening to my buddy is this:

Listen man, if you want to get her back, your one shot is to cut her loose, stop funding her affair, and make reality sink in as soon as possible. Tell close friends and family what's happening. Call a lawyer. While moving on yourself - try to think positively, be open to life, eat well, excercise, be good to your kids. And maybe she'll come around. 1% odds are better than 0% odds while begging and pleading. 

And if you don't want her back, the path looks pretty much the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

I think the whole idea is simply a variant of the romantic comedy formula, combined with many peoples desire for validation and vindication as a type of closure.


----------



## Marduk

samyeagar said:


> I think the whole idea is simply a variant of the romantic comedy formula, combined with many peoples desire for validation and vindication as a type of closure.


So why have I seen it so many times?

In real life?


----------



## Bananapeel

My take on this is that if the BS acts quickly/decisively and does all the things that are usually recommended by most at TAM they are really setting the stage for D not R, and that situation is unlikely to have the WS coming back. IMO if a BS really wants their WS to come begging to be taken back they probably need to take a different approach which sets the stage that R is possible. I know my XWW will never come groveling and ask me to take her back simply because she knows that option just isn't on the table, so why would she or any other sane person waste her time. If I had wanted her back and approached things differently, following some of the advice from @jld , I could easily see my XWW trying to R.


----------



## Marduk

Bananapeel said:


> My take on this is that if the BS acts quickly/decisively and does all the things that are usually recommended by most at TAM they are really setting the stage for D not R, and that situation is unlikely to have the WS coming back. IMO if a BS really wants their WS to come begging to be taken back they probably need to take a different approach which sets the stage that R is possible. I know my XWW will never come groveling and ask me to take her back simply because she knows that option just isn't on the table, so why would she or any other sane person waste her time. If I had wanted her back and approached things differently, following some of the advice from @jld , I could easily see my XWW trying to R.


The three cases I mention about the wayward wanting to come back were all a result of the betrayed one acting decisively.

The couple I've seen where they didn't all were long drawn out affairs, and one even found a new affair partner when the first one ended it -- during the "temporary separation" because of "needing space" and the betrayed spouse tearfully gave it.


----------



## samyeagar

marduk said:


> So why have I seen it so many times?
> 
> In real life?


Seen what? The WS who comes back truly repentant after seeing the error of their ways, and is truly changed at their core?


----------



## bandit.45

Satya said:


> Rather than give a BS any possible false hope about the WS, my preference is to stay focused on what the BS can DO.
> 
> Just because a WS may "come back" (for any reason) does not mean they have to be taken back.
> 
> If we as contributors do our part, (as I see it anyway), the BS learn to become less codependent and capable of making their own rational choice, with eyes unclouded by all the heightened emotions that usually direct people to what they WISH, not always what IS.


This. Our goal should be to help the BS re-gain their self worth and emotional independence. If their marriage is saved and their WS is truly repentant and remorseful, so much the better. 

But as many here are saying, once the BS regains their sense of self, they rarely want the wayward back.


----------



## cbnero

One my employees was divorced for 5 years and remarried his ex. That was about 10 years ago and they seem happy. I haven't poked around in asking questions but he never made mention of an affair on either side and I've never seen any anger or bitterness that would indicate anything like that happened.

My ex keeps trying to either reconcile or be "friends" but I miss her like a wart and so I'm not even talking to her to find out what she's really after. 2 weeks ago she invited me on vacation with her and the kids. WTF
I want nothing to do with her.


----------



## Chaparral

ThePheonix said:


> My take on the men, based anecdotally, is that only 15-20% of the men reconcile because the woman is no longer in to them and not interested in reconciliation; hence their often proposed "conditions" that make it impossible.
> Just because a spouse returns after sowing a few post marriage oats doesn't mean she now has realized you were really the cats pajamas. Often times youre nothing more than a familiar place to hang their hat.


I think when women cheat they are likely done but many are 't. I think men are less likely to forgive cheating and blow it up out of the gate.


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## Marduk

samyeagar said:


> Seen what? The WS who comes back truly repentant after seeing the error of their ways, and is truly changed at their core?


I can't see into their soul and I'm pretty jaded about people really changing. 

However I have seen some pretty repentant spouses who want their marriage back.

After they're done getting their rocks off or their affair partner dumps them... Or their spouse moves on, of course.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

marduk said:


> I can't see into their soul and I'm pretty jaded about people really changing.
> 
> However I have seen some pretty repentant spouses who want their marriage back.
> 
> After they're done getting their rocks off or their affair partner dumps them... Or their spouse moves on, of course.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm pretty jaded about it too.

I took the original post by bandit to be more along the lines af the WS coming back to the BS with something along the lines of...queue the soft, slow, yet dramatic music...I'm so sorry. I never really realized what I had until I thought it was gone forever but now I do, and all the blah blah crap that follows.


----------



## GusPolinski

Bananapeel said:


> *My take on this is that if the BS acts quickly/decisively and does all the things that are usually recommended by most at TAM they are really setting the stage for D not R, and that situation is unlikely to have the WS coming back.* IMO if a BS really wants their WS to come begging to be taken back they probably need to take a different approach which sets the stage that R is possible. I know my XWW will never come groveling and ask me to take her back simply because she knows that option just isn't on the table, so why would she or any other sane person waste her time. If I had wanted her back and approached things differently, following some of the advice from @jld , I could easily see my XWW trying to R.


Depends on how far you take it, IMO.

If, for example, a given BS opts to file for divorce right out of the gate (and especially prior to confronting w/ knowledge of the affair), then yeah... that will likely lead to an actual divorce.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, though.


----------



## Marduk

samyeagar said:


> I'm pretty jaded about it too.
> 
> I took the original post by bandit to be more along the lines af the WS coming back to the BS with something along the lines of...queue the soft, slow, yet dramatic music...I'm so sorry. I never really realized what I had until I thought it was gone forever but now I do, and all the blah blah crap that follows.


My favorite was with one of my buddies... Found out his wife was sleeping with one of his best friends.

She was out of the house right away (into a condo nearby that he found for her), realtors were looking at the house, and she had signed a separation agreement with fair terms regarding custody of the kids, etc. She all signed it happily because she thought her affair partner was going to leave his wife and she had a new shag pad to **** him in without interference.

And then, he left for Hawaii for a week. With a random girl he picked up at the bar. He told me it went something like "listen, I'm going through a divorce, want a free trip to Hawaii for a week?"

I don't even know that he touched her -- for all I know, he got her a separate room. Or screwed her brains out, I don't know.

But what I do know is that the week he was gone, her affair partner decided that leaving his wife wasn't such a good idea after all (after my buddy called up his wife). Suddenly, my buddies wife was alone, her husband was in Hawaii with some PYT, and she was being summarily dumped by two guys.

And then she came over to our house sobbing to my wife about "why won't he even try to save our marriage! I want him back so bad!"

And my wife laughed at her and said "I guess you shouldn't have ****ed his best friend then." Or some such thing. She tried to make it more compassionate than it sounds but that was the message. His wife tried to make it out like she had been confused the whole time, and it was the other guy that convinced her to have the affair... But I finally had enough and just said that she made her bed and she's going to have to lie in it. And that was that.

About a year later we ran into her, and she looked like she had aged 10 years. Living in her small condo, part time custody of her kids, very lonely. It was sad.

Her husband started his own business that took off, got a new girlfriend who adores him, and has a big ranch outside of town for his kids to come to and ride horses when he has them.

She still talks about wanting him back, but that isn't going to ever happen.


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## alte Dame

We have small number statistics on forums like this, so we can't strictly assume that what we are seeing here is representative of the whole. It could be, certainly, or it could be that places like TAM attract certain types of people. Whatever the reality, we can't know at this point whether we can extrapolate what we learn here in terms of statistical average, likelihood, etc.

That being said, I'm going to extrapolate  - with the caveat that my data come from mostly from infidelity forums.

Re bandit's interesting question - I don't think they often come crawling back. I think the cheaters usually have at least one foot out the door when the A is outed and the WS's calculations if they 'crawl back' are mostly based on things other than deep, rediscovered love for the BS.

I think that what we see is that the WS often wants to stay or come home, but, as so many have said, the BS often eventually reaches that plain of lethal flatness where he/she is the one who is checked out.

It's all a process that I think TAM helps people navigate. We don't generally push people to believe things that are unrealistic, I don't think. I think rather we give them information and support to cope with the crisis they are experiencing. Maybe they will negotiate the curve quicker and smarter. Maybe their pain will be lessened. Maybe they will recover their pride quicker. We hope that they will.

Of the stories I've read over the years, it seems rare to me that they come crawling back emotionally. They often do, however, come back in ways that allow the BS to recover some dignity and eventually decide that the WS isn't all that and probably isn't worth a long-term commitment.


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## PhillyGuy13

marduk said:


> My favorite was with one of my buddies... Found out his wife was sleeping with one of his best friends.
> 
> She was out of the house right away (into a condo nearby that he found for her), realtors were looking at the house, and she had signed a separation agreement with fair terms regarding custody of the kids, etc. She all signed it happily because she thought her affair partner was going to leave his wife and she had a new shag pad to **** him in without interference.
> 
> And then, he left for Hawaii for a week. With a random girl he picked up at the bar. He told me it went something like "listen, I'm going through a divorce, want a free trip to Hawaii for a week?"
> 
> I don't even know that he touched her -- for all I know, he got her a separate room. Or screwed her brains out, I don't know.
> 
> But what I do know is that the week he was gone, her affair partner decided that leaving his wife wasn't such a good idea after all (after my buddy called up his wife). Suddenly, my buddies wife was alone, her husband was in Hawaii with some PYT, and she was being summarily dumped by two guys.
> 
> And then she came over to our house sobbing to my wife about "why won't he even try to save our marriage! I want him back so bad!"
> 
> And my wife laughed at her and said "I guess you shouldn't have ****ed his best friend then." Or some such thing. She tried to make it more compassionate than it sounds but that was the message.* His wife tried to make it out like she had been confused the whole time, and it was the other guy that convinced her to have the affair..*. But I finally had enough and just said that she made her bed and she's going to have to lie in it. And that was that.
> 
> About a year later we ran into her, and she looked like she had aged 10 years. Living in her small condo, part time custody of her kids, very lonely. It was sad.
> 
> Her husband started his own business that took off, got a new girlfriend who adores him, and has a big ranch outside of town for his kids to come to and ride horses when he has them.
> 
> She still talks about wanting him back, but that isn't going to ever happen.


I always chuckle at the "I was confused" excuse. Hmmm I didn't think that was my husband's penis, but didn't know for sure. Whoops!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

alte Dame said:


> It's all a process that I think TAM helps people navigate. We don't generally push people to believe things that are unrealistic, I don't think. I think rather we give them information and support to cope with the crisis they are experiencing. Maybe they will negotiate the curve quicker and smarter. Maybe their pain will be lessened. Maybe they will recover their pride quicker. We hope that they will.


I think where we sometimes go wrong, if that is the way to put it, is we have seen this tv series before. So when the newbie BS shows up we already know the plot lines which are most likely. We jump to the last 5 minutes of the show. But the BS is sitting there dazed and confused in the first 30 seconds wondering wtf just happened and who is this person they're married to?

Not that we're giving bad information or bad advice, but maybe we need to provide more context and slow down just a bit. Like when we say do the 180 or expose and file for divorce. We know why those are good strategies, but the BS without the explanations may see it as an extreme measure.


----------



## Marduk

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I always chuckle at the "I was confused" excuse. Hmmm I didn't think that was my husband's penis, but didn't know for sure. Whoops!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it's more than that. 

I don't think we're any one thing, and I don't think we have as total a control of our cognition as we think we do. I think it's entirely possible to make an error in judgement which allows a flirtation to be thought of as innocent. Which then causes a cascade of events which leads up to a flooding of hormones by our lymbic system which makes us really want to **** someone that isn't our spouse. 

Yes, they still decided to and thought it made sense at the time. 

And then the hormones go away because reality sinks in and then it's "what was I thinking" time.

Which is also why I think it's so important to make decisions based on reason rather than emotion. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

joannacroc said:


> To be fair, some of them probably don't and may have been deeply unhappy due to a profound fault in their spouse, but it was their choice to cheat. I will never buy into the whole "I did it because x y z" mentality. At the end of the day, there isn't really an excuse. It boggles the mind that the OM or OM never seems to question what kind of s&*(y person would cheat on their spouse with them. Maybe they manipulate. Or maybe they genuinely believe the reasons they give themselves that justify their cheating. Meh. Whatever. At the end of the day, does it really make a difference?


What about people who cheat who have absolutely no intention of leaving their spouse and so they avoid affairs that show emotional involvement?


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## BetrayedDad

bandit.45 said:


> My question to you all is...are we doing a disservice to the newbie BSs who come on to TAM asking for our advice when we tell them something like this?
> 
> It just seems like we are stetting them up for disappointment.


When I tell newbies, "they will come crawling back" I always clarify "in order to plan B you!" My ex tried to do it with me and fortunately I was able to see right through her pathetic, "I want my family back" routine. I remember it vividly, she was sobbing uncontrollably in my kitchen and the whole thing was just a complete farce. Thanks to TAM, I knew what she was doing.

95% of cheaters are only sorry they got caught and that's a conservative number. Too many BS still try so hard to see the good in their WS no matter have much EVIL they have done. If you're willing to stab your spouse in the back so vicious and callously despite the years together, and them being the parent of your child(ren), then the odds of you being truely remorseful about it later are just incredibly remote.


----------



## sidney2718

Chaparral said:


> I think when women cheat they are likely done but many are 't. I think men are less likely to forgive cheating and blow it up out of the gate.


We've seen this. It is far more common on TAM for a BW to take a WH back, at least for a while. And some of those reconciliations seem to work out.


----------



## sidney2718

Thor said:


> I think where we sometimes go wrong, if that is the way to put it, is we have seen this tv series before. So when the newbie BS shows up we already know the plot lines which are most likely. We jump to the last 5 minutes of the show. But the BS is sitting there dazed and confused in the first 30 seconds wondering wtf just happened and who is this person they're married to?
> 
> Not that we're giving bad information or bad advice, but maybe we need to provide more context and slow down just a bit. Like when we say do the 180 or expose and file for divorce. We know why those are good strategies, but the BS without the explanations may see it as an extreme measure.


AMEN!

And we rarely have the whole story right off, especially if the BS is more of a lemon than a diamond.


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## Maxo

cbnero said:


> One my employees was divorced for 5 years and remarried his ex. That was about 10 years ago and they seem happy. I haven't poked around in asking questions but he never made mention of an affair on either side and I've never seen any anger or bitterness that would indicate anything like that happened.
> 
> My ex keeps trying to either reconcile or be "friends" but I miss her like a wart and so I'm not even talking to her to find out what she's really after. 2 weeks ago she invited me on vacation with her and the kids. WTF
> I want nothing to do with her.


 I have had similar overtures but once I learned about Cluster Bs, I realized what she was doing.


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## Maxo

marduk said:


> I think it's more than that.
> 
> I don't think we're any one thing, and I don't think we have as total a control of our cognition as we think we do. I think it's entirely possible to make an error in judgement which allows a flirtation to be thought of as innocent. Which then causes a cascade of events which leads up to a flooding of hormones by our lymbic system which makes us really want to **** someone that isn't our spouse.
> 
> Yes, they still decided to and thought it made sense at the time.
> 
> And then the hormones go away because reality sinks in and then it's "what was I thinking" time.
> 
> Which is also why I think it's so important to make decisions based on reason rather than emotion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I disagree. There are too many conscious decisions made pre_ hormonal flooding for it to be inadvertent.


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## Marduk

Maxo said:


> I disagree. There are too many conscious decisions made pre_ hormonal flooding for it to be inadvertent.


I'm not disagreeing with you. 

I'm expressing why some of the confusion might be genuine when the fog lifts. 

Because I've seen it close up and some of it seems genuine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad

We can't help who we are attracted to.

But every decision we make after that is a conscious and intentional one.


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## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> AMEN!
> 
> And we rarely have the whole story right off, especially if the BS is more of a lemon than a diamond.


And, it is highly doubtful you will get a fair and accurate portrayal of the. BS from a cheater, someone already demonstrating a high level of dishonesty as well as being highly invested in justifyi g both to outsiders and him or herself.


----------



## Acoa

bandit.45 said:


> My question to you all is...are we doing a disservice to the newbie BSs who come on to TAM asking for our advice when we tell them something like this?
> 
> It just seems like we are stetting them up for disappointment.


We do a disservice anytime we generalize. All we can do is speak from our experience. I also think the phrase 'crawl back' is loaded. 

We know from experience that sometimes the WS wants to return, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the BS wants them to come back, sometimes they don't. The truth is nobody can tell what will happen.

When a WS does want to return, I would venture to guess it's not genuine. Would my WS want to get back with me? At one point I would say yes. Especially early on. Now that some time has passed, I think she is less interested. Perhaps it's just that she knows I'm not interested so she doesn't play that game any longer. 

I also think it's rare that they 'crawl back', and that term isn't a good term. I wouldn't take back my ex, but if she came back crawling and begging and in tears it would be especially repulsive. It would indicated the depths of her manipulative behavior. 

What would be exceptionally rare and almost inconceivable would be a WS accepting responsibility for what they did. Expressing with clarity that they were selfish and showing understanding of why they cheated. Then wishing the BS all the happiness in the world, fully understanding that it won't be with them because of the pain their shared history would bring.


----------



## ThePheonix

marduk said:


> Which then causes a cascade of events which leads up to a flooding of hormones by our lymbic system which makes us really want to **** someone that isn't our spouse.


And with most of the chicks I've known, ain't nothing that will cause the lymbic system to produce an inordinately low level of hormones than going back to the same man you've lost romantic interest in.


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## weltschmerz

ThePheonix said:


> And with most of the chicks I've known, ain't nothing that will cause the lymbic system to produce an inordinately low level of hormones than going back to the same man you've lost romantic interest in.


Unless the man happens to hit the jackpot. Then the harmones go into overdrive on account of the lymbic system shutting down in favour of the goldig system.


----------



## larry.gray

samyeagar said:


> Seen what? The WS who comes back truly repentant after seeing the error of their ways, and is truly changed at their core?


In the cases I cited in my personal life, I'd say 1 of 2. 

No for the WH. He'd cheated many times on his OW / new wife. He's still scum. He has propositioned family members. 

The WW really did change. But she went so far down a bad road reconcilliation wouldn't be possible even if the BH were single in the future. I can't see taking back an ex wife who's done a significant portion of the towns' men and sold her body for drugs. Plus the drama angle... his ex wife's OM was ex wife's sister's husband. BH married OMW / fSIL. Now that they've raised the blended family and the kids hate both waywards, I can't see reconciliation working for them either.


----------



## Maxo

weltschmerz said:


> Unless the man happens to hit the jackpot. Then the harmones go into overdrive on account of the lymbic system shutting down in favour of the goldig system.


Hypergamy is ever present.


----------



## Be smart

Maybe this will not fit into this thread so please forgive me.

This february was One Year "anniversary" of my break up with ex-fiance. Damn we even wanted to start with children right away.

I told her I would never forgive cheating no matter if we are 5 or 50 years together and she knew what I think about that but she do it anyways. She is still contacting me,sometimes even asking how do I feel but I let my new Lady to answer on those questions.  

I am happy when I see other people working together after betrayel and I will support them but I really hate when a wrong husband or wife starts to blame others for their actions. What is even worse a damaged spouse will do anything to keep the cheating H/W. So at the end I really ask myself is it worth ?

Sometimes it is much easier to start all over again. You dont have to sleep with one open eye or ask yourself a questions where is she/he,what are they doing ...

Also people are using to much excuses for cheating like mid life crisis. My grandmother never knew about this stuff but she never cheated. People used to have respect and love for each other.

Now you can see in group of friends,wife making laugh at her husband and puting him down or husband doing the same. It is "normal" and they even laugh about it on facebook and other sites.

I wish you the best TAM members.


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## joannacroc

sidney2718 said:


> What about people who cheat who have absolutely no intention of leaving their spouse and so they avoid affairs that show emotional involvement?


I'm not sure I understand what yr question is based on what I said before this. Help me out? What about them in what context?


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> And, it is highly doubtful you will get a fair and accurate portrayal of the. BS from a cheater, someone already demonstrating a high level of dishonesty as well as being highly invested in justifyi g both to outsiders and him or herself.


Right. Which is why most here read the OP's postings very carefully. It is the only insight into the WS that we have.


----------



## sidney2718

joannacroc said:


> I'm not sure I understand what yr question is based on what I said before this. Help me out? What about them in what context?


It is a group that we have not mentioned in this discussion of infidelity.


----------



## joannacroc

sidney2718 said:


> What about people who cheat who have absolutely no intention of leaving their spouse and so they avoid affairs that show emotional involvement?


You mean, hypothetically, would such a remorseless person, once their affair was discovered, try to come crawling back to their spouse? I would think it would be mostly annoyance at having their cake eating uncovered that might cause them to make some kind of overture, to save face with their own family or kids or community? But who knows. I remember a woman on TAM whose STBXH actually expected her to lend him her car to help the OW house, or something to that effect. It seems really common for WS to somehow feel there was a justification, so maybe that's why we don't hear a lot about people who crawl back?


----------



## TheGoodGuy

LongWalk said:


> If Honcho or GoodGuy's ex come crawling back, so what. That is just a new annoying mind game.


*Shudder*

My ex didn't crawl back but did try the "can we talk?" bit with me about a month before the divorce was final. I shut that crap down faster than Conrad could blink. :grin2:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1

@bandit.45 I think the goal is to help any BS make their final decision out of strength and not fear. I think real R is rare, and when it does occur - great but in many cases all R means is "there was really no other options in my life so I stayed" or "I'm stuck here due to kids, money, etc" - when a spouse has a LTA that means they repeatedly lied, deceived and disrespected you and the whole family - coming back from that would be very hard especially if the affair went on for years. 

Also the BS needs to ask themselves my WS cheated for 2, 3,5 years or more - what am I getting back exactly??? Someone who is capable of such a massive amount of betrayal all for their own pleasure? And at the end of the day that is what affairs are about - the WS's ability to get pleasure outside of their marriage. Someone who cheats for years has zero respect for their spouse or the marriage - how do you even get back your basic level of respect for them? 

BS need to repair themselves first and then decide what they want....but in many cases the WS could care less and is already on to their next distraction...


----------



## just got it 55

bandit.45 said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Just that BSs should never plan on the WS to come "crawling back or "grovelling" for forgiveness. I honestly cannot remember the most recent thread on TAM where such behavior actually occurred.


How many of us boldly said LUVs wife would be crawling back and Her and POSOM would crash and burn

Some of us still said it even when LUV said himself they would be together for th long hall

I think we just want to believe it

55


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## sidney2718

joannacroc said:


> You mean, hypothetically, would such a remorseless person, once their affair was discovered, try to come crawling back to their spouse? I would think it would be mostly annoyance at having their cake eating uncovered that might cause them to make some kind of overture, to save face with their own family or kids or community? But who knows. I remember a woman on TAM whose STBXH actually expected her to lend him her car to help the OW house, or something to that effect. It seems really common for WS to somehow feel there was a justification, so maybe that's why we don't hear a lot about people who crawl back?


Yes.

My view of divorce, infidelity, and life in general is different than the views of most of those here. TAM has a group of "Laws" that are not, in fact, laws at least in my opinion. First among those is that there is never any justification for infidelity. While this is true most of the time, every case is different.

Worse, infidelity is often (but not always) preceded by some serious strains in the marriage. Some of those strains leave a spouse seriously open to being sexually taken advantage of.

To me, the worst aspect of infidelity is not that a spouse has been physically "defiled", but that trust is broken. And it is. And the breaking of the trust ruins the marriage.

Now since about 50% of marriages and relationships end in divorce or separation and (I'm guessing here) half of those are due to infidelity, we need to understand BEFORE we enter into a relationship that there is a serious chance that infidelity will occur.

But caught up in the hormonal swirl of marriage, we don't think of it. But then, years later, when we discover infidelity we are shocked, shocked!

Here at TAM we've made some attempts to discuss the causes of infidelity and in fact have made some progress. But there are those who consider infidelity a character defect that cannot be fixed. We can give you a heart transplant but we can't fix infidelity.

I don't believe that. Which explains some of the stands that I take.

When my children (all girls, by the way) I impressed on them the point that they had two ways to live. One was to make their own way in the world. The other was to find a man willing to support them for life. That sounds crass, but there it is. They chose to find their own way in the world and have made marriages in which they feel equal in every way to their husbands.

I believe that all children should be raised with the understanding that sh!t happens and that they need to be prepared for it. This isn't a Walt Disney world, and never was.


----------



## Maxo

I feel it is extremely rare that a person capable of lying with such aplomb, for so long and with no outward manifestation of discomfort or lessened functioning changes.
As was mentioned, the sheer volume of lies and the duration in LTAs boggles the mind of a person with even modest levels of empathy or even a diminished conscience.
Couple that with the cruelty most often displayed after discovery, the complete lack of concern for their AP' spouse and kids( and the cheater cannot even rationalize hurting these folks by conjuring up some offenses or greivances, as they do not even know them) and you have fairly well defined sociopathic behavior.
With divorce so readily and easily available these days, there is no need to go this route and hurt others in order to pursue sex.


----------



## tech-novelist

sidney2718 said:


> What about people who cheat who have absolutely no intention of leaving their spouse and so they avoid affairs that show emotional involvement?


I suspect most of those people don't get caught.


----------



## weltschmerz

just got it 55 said:


> How many of us boldly said LUVs wife would be crawling back and Her and POSOM would crash and burn
> 
> Some of us still said it even when LUV said himself they would be together for th long hall
> 
> I think we just want to believe it
> 
> 55


Can't say much cos I myself am not out of it yet.

But I believe telling the BSs that improving their lives in the hope that their WS will come "crawling" back is a balm to the bruised ego. Soothes the burn. Downside is that it make them hang on to the past for far too long.

My advice is to go in with zero expectations and come out a winner regardless of what happens. But that's just me I suppose, I work well under the assumption that life's gone to sh!te and I need to claw my way to the top again - can't get much worse than that.


----------



## Maxo

weltschmerz said:


> Can't say much cos I myself am not out of it yet.
> 
> But I believe telling the BSs that improving their lives in the hope that their WS will come "crawling" back is a balm to the bruised ego. Soothes the burn. Downside is that it make them hang on to the past for far too long.
> 
> My advice is to go in with zero expectations and come out a winner regardless of what happens. But that's just me I suppose, I work well under the assumption that life's gone to sh!te and I need to claw my way to the top again - can't get much worse than that.


It becomes so ewhat easier to take risks that may improve your life when you come to the realization that nothing, except something bad happening to your kids or othrr loved ones, can ever hurt you this much again.
I live with no fear, kind of like Jeff Bridges in "Fearless" after he survived a plane crash.


----------



## bandit.45

I guess the more I read, and step back and look at the totality of all the anecdotes over the years, the more I am convinced that the only time that true lasting reconciliation occurs is when the betrayed spouse files for divorce, ends the marriage, and then puts as much distance between themselves and the WS as they can. After a few years, if an xWS has truly done a lot of soul searching and hard work on themselves, and is honestly repentant and remorseful, a new relationship can be created if the BS wishes it. But this is so rare...as rare as being struck by lightning. 

This is why I am not an advocate of reconciliation, because more often than not, the betrayed spouse is being manipulated, and once the WS has them back in their web, they go back to the same old behaviors. I would hazard to guess this is the case 95% of the time. The majority of WSs just cannot do it...they cannot commit to digging deep and making the lasting changes in themselves to keep from straying again. A visit to the Wayward section of SI is replete with WSs who give lip service to wanting to change to save their marriage, yet the minute they are told by their BS that they are getting divorced?.....crickets. You never see another post from that person again ... and it shows you little resolve most of them really had. 

E1 and B1, Mr. and Mrs. John Adams, are among the very rare married couples who have come on TAM who would represent this extremely minuscule minority of successful Rs. But their marriages were rebuilt because in both cases the WS owned their sh!t and recommitted to saving their relationships.


----------



## SunCMars

arbitrator said:


> *In my case, I have been unceremoniously "hosed" by adultery twice. Guess I'm just a damned glutton for punishment or the world's foremost fool!
> 
> Since having had the good fortune to find my way over here to TAM, I have only advocated the horrible truth of my experiences as a BS in both of my marriages! As always, I try to present my opinions in the most humorous way possible! I'd much rather sense someones laughter or smiles much rather than their tears, but am amply equipped to deal with the latter!
> .
> And although I am quite prejudiced in my expositions, I do not always advocate hasty separation and divorce as everyone's infidelity case dossier usually always contains either certain variations on their very own case of betrayal, or even a whole new and different set of facts!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good post. I agree. 

Humor [laughter] is the best medicine.

I chuckle a lot when I type; make a lot of typo's and Freudian Slips under the cognizant horizon; under the guise of directing my response to the aggrieved. I heal myself in the outpouring and the adhoc unfolding process that could be creative writing! TMI


----------



## SunCMars

bandit.45;15174121 a new relationship can be created if the BS wishes it. But this is so rare...as rare as being struck by lightning.
The odds of being struck by lightening in one's lifetime are 1 in 3000.
If one lives in the mountains or works in the mountains said:


> would up your odds, you are the tallest structure around. Other areas, I'm sure up the odds..... living in flat terrain^ ?
> 
> So what ! ?
> 
> The odds of R go way up when the BS has untoward, abundant forgiveness. Or maybe has insecurities, is co-dependent. When balanced on some "marital scale", where one side of the scale notes the weight of the good or desirous things in a marriage and the other side the heft of the bad aspects, some BS's do rug-sweep.


----------



## SunCMars

Many of us have been following your thread "I've been played". 

What is happening? Did you bail? Are you still in detective mode? 

We have not given up on you. 

She [WS] has not either. Oh yea, she is swimming on the surface of your pool, while you enjoy(ed) the depths. You thought she was next to you down there. Not so. It was her shadow that accompanied you in that dark warm place in your marriage these last years.

Change is not always bad. Let this play out, crap....you have no choice! 

You can still steer a sinking ship to shore. 

She may surprise you once this wayward whale breaks surface. 

"Thar she blows". Do you harpoon her, kill her off and sell her blubber and oil? Do you curse her, as did AHAB? Or do you jump on her back and return to the depths that your heart ever-so-much desires. 

How strong is your love? 

You decide, and not quickly. Give her a chance to right-her-ship. She may refuse and just bow out. 

Likely she will flounder, belly up, then down, then down the road. Your foot may advance that journey for her.

Let your mind decide, and your heart agree on this one. You need both to cope.


----------



## ThePheonix

Truthseeker1 said:


> Also the BS needs to ask themselves my WS cheated for 2, 3,5 years or more - what am I getting back exactly??? Someone who is capable of such a massive amount of betrayal all for their own pleasure? And at the end of the day that is what affairs are about - the WS's ability to get pleasure outside of their marriage. Someone who cheats for years has zero respect for their spouse or the marriage - how do you even get back your basic level of respect for them?


Exactly. A couple of things where investing more into has little chance of success is stock in a bankrupt corporation and time in a morally bankrupt marital partner.


----------



## Truthseeker1

ThePheonix said:


> Exactly. A couple of things where investing more into has little chance of success is stock in a bankrupt corporation and time in a bankrupt marital partner.


Is R possible after an LTA - sure but man it has to be rare - a person who is capable of betraying you again and again and again is not a great risk...


----------



## EI

Truthseeker1 said:


> Is R possible after an LTA - sure but man it has to be rare - a person who is capable of betraying you again and again and again is not a great risk...


It's up to each individual to decide if a WS who had an LTA is worth the risk. Many would say that a spouse who neglected, rejected, humiliated, demoralized, emotionally abandoned, and unilaterally decided that their marriage would forevermore remain sexless, all while both parties were only in their mid-40's, was not a great risk. 

In extreme cases like these, it would appear that neither party was a great risk. Yet, in at least one case, and in many more, I suspect, both spouses decided that their partner was very much worth the risk. Four years later, and we could not be any happier that we decided to take a risk on one another. When truly _Coping with Infidelity, _ the facts, all of the facts, matter.

This WS didn't crawl back, nor did my BS do any version of the pick me dance, (which no BS should EVER do) and there was no RA. We each worked on ourselves, first, while demonstrating compassion for one another. When we finally started working together, not necessarily with the intention of R, but instead, simply trying to survive the extremely painful ordeal we were experiencing, we realized what we were now capable of having together, and we both ran to each other. We still do. B1 is my anchor in the storm. I make waves, and he keeps us grounded. It works!


----------



## Nomorebeans

Maxo said:


> It becomes so ewhat easier to take risks that may improve your life when you come to the realization that nothing, except something bad happening to your kids or othrr loved ones, can ever hurt you this much again.
> I live with no fear, kind of like Jeff Bridges in "Fearless" after he survived a plane crash.


This.

I had this revelation about a month ago. I realized that there is nothing he could do or say that would hurt me any more than he already has. He could propose to her and marry her on the beach tomorrow at sunset with our son as his Best Man, and that would be a walk in the park compared to his repeated lying and abject cruelty he inflicted after I found out.


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> I feel it is extremely rare that a person capable of lying with such aplomb, for so long and with no outward manifestation of discomfort or lessened functioning changes.
> As was mentioned, the sheer volume of lies and the duration in LTAs boggles the mind of a person with even modest levels of empathy or even a diminished conscience.
> Couple that with the cruelty most often displayed after discovery, the complete lack of concern for their AP' spouse and kids( and the cheater cannot even rationalize hurting these folks by conjuring up some offenses or greivances, as they do not even know them) and you have fairly well defined sociopathic behavior.
> With divorce so readily and easily available these days, there is no need to go this route and hurt others in order to pursue sex.


Divorce is both expensive and time-consuming unless both parties want the divorce.

I agree with most of what you wrote. I do want to emphasize that we can't really discuss cases we don't know about. And I'm willing to bet that the number of undetected infidelities is larger than we normally think.


----------



## sidney2718

I think EI has said it all.


----------



## LongWalk

Mr and Mrs John Adams had a sort of open marriage so they were not in a reconciliation that was monogamous.

The male and female reactions to infidelity are different. Women are more likely to consider reconciliation for a number of reasons. Economic pressure is one. But women also are more willing to compete for a man. A betrayed wife whose husband has gotten involved with a younger woman may see her situation as negative in terms of sex ranking. If she is in her 40s she may not be confident.

If one visits Surviving Infidelity or Reddit, one can read about wives who are trying to reconcile but struggle to rekindle sexual attraction for their betrayed husband. 

There are also women who are full of regret and remorse (or at least protestations of them). But it is almost as if they succumbed to temptation simply to give themselves a really difficult project – winning back BH to whom the lies and fornication cannot be cleaned up even if they initially try.


----------



## honcho

bandit.45 said:


> I guess the more I read, and step back and look at the totality of all the anecdotes over the years, the more I am convinced that the only time that true lasting reconciliation occurs is when the betrayed spouse files for divorce, ends the marriage, and then puts as much distance between themselves and the WS as they can. After a few years, if an xWS has truly done a lot of soul searching and hard work on themselves, and is honestly repentant and remorseful, a new relationship can be created if the BS wishes it. But this is so rare...as rare as being struck by lightning.
> 
> This is why I am not an advocate of reconciliation, because more often than not, the betrayed spouse is being manipulated, and once the WS has them back in their web, they go back to the same old behaviors. I would hazard to guess this is the case 95% of the time. The majority of WSs just cannot do it...they cannot commit to digging deep and making the lasting changes in themselves to keep from straying again. A visit to the Wayward section of SI is replete with WSs who give lip service to wanting to change to save their marriage, yet the minute they are told by their BS that they are getting divorced?.....crickets. You never see another post from that person again ... and it shows you little resolve most of them really had.
> 
> E1 and B1, Mr. and Mrs. John Adams, are among the very rare married couples who have come on TAM who would represent this extremely minuscule minority of successful Rs. But their marriages were rebuilt because in both cases the WS owned their sh!t and recommitted to saving their relationships.


A friend of mine followed this line of thinking, they were divorced a few years got back together. They both seemingly had become better people apart, learned from the past. They got remarried, last 2 years before she was back to sleeping with everyone and he was more of a jerk than anything. For whatever reason apart they are OK but together eventually they just bought out in worst in each other.


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> Divorce is both expensive and time-consuming unless both parties want the divorce.
> 
> I agree with most of what you wrote. I do want to emphasize that we can't really discuss cases we don't know about. And I'm willing to bet that the number of undetected infidelities is larger than we normally think.


I agree, most cheating goes undetected.

As for divorce being expensive and time consuming, it does not seem to be to me, relative to more complex types of litigation.


----------



## Maxo

SunCMars said:


> bandit.45;15174121 a new relationship can be created if the BS wishes it. But this is so rare...as rare as being struck by lightning.
> The odds of being struck by lightening in one's lifetime are 1 in 3000.
> If one lives in the mountains or works in the mountains said:
> 
> 
> 
> would up your odds, you are the tallest structure around. Other areas, I'm sure up the odds..... living in flat terrain^ ?
> 
> So what ! ?
> 
> The odds of R go way up when the BS has untoward, abundant forgiveness. Or maybe has insecurities, is co-dependent. When balanced on some "marital scale", where one side of the scale notes the weight of the good or desirous things in a marriage and the other side the heft of the bad aspects, some BS's do rug-sweep.
> 
> 
> 
> 1 in 3000? Not possible.
Click to expand...


----------



## honcho

Maxo said:


> I agree, most cheating goes undetected.
> 
> As for divorce being expensive and time consuming, it does not seem to be to me, relative to more complex types of litigation.


I've been involved in multimillion dollar litigations that were cheaper than my divorce. Between the two of us we had well over a 100k in legal fees and we didn't have assets to fight over. Never underestimate the cost. Oh yeah and the 3 years of my life I'll never get back....


----------



## Maxo

EI said:


> It's up to each individual to decide if a WS who had an LTA is worth the risk. Many would say that a spouse who neglected, rejected, humiliated, demoralized, emotionally abandoned, and unilaterally decided that their marriage would forevermore remain sexless, all while both parties were only in their mid-40's, was not a great risk.
> 
> In extreme cases like these, it would appear that neither party was a great risk. Yet, in at least one case, and in many more, I suspect, both spouses decided that their partner was very much worth the risk. Four years later, and they could not be any happier that they decided to take a risk on one another. When truly _Coping with Infidelity, _ the facts, all of the facts, matter.
> 
> This WS didn't crawl back, nor did my BS do any version of the pick me dance, (which no BS should EVER do) and there was no RA. We each worked on ourselves, first, while demonstrating compassion for one another. When we finally started working together, not necessarily with the intention of R, but instead, simply trying to survive the extremely painful ordeal we were experiencing, we realized what we were now capable of having together, and we both ran to each other. We still do. B1 is my anchor in the storm. I make waves, and he keeps us grounded. It works!


I have found that people have different tolerance levels for abuse and differing capacities for forgiveness.

I can only spek hypothetically, as I loved my XW very, very much. I am uncertain if I could have forgiven her had she come clean and truly expressed sorrow for what she had done.

I was a very good, imperfect, loving husband and father. So , I cannot relate to how your husband must have felt, if he acknowledged the truth of your characterization of him.
In most cases, however, I suspect that the betrayed was a good spouse. That would make it much more difficult to forgive, as you were doing your best.


----------



## Maxo

honcho said:


> I've been involved in multimillion dollar litigations that were cheaper than my divorce. Between the two of us we had well over a 100k in legal fees and we didn't have assets to fight over. Never underestimate the cost. Oh yeah and the 3 years of my life I'll never get back....


Sorry to hear that. But, despite the expense, cheating is not justified as divorce is readily available.


----------



## Maxo

From how EI describes her husband and marriage, assuming it is objectively true, it seems like a relatively rare situation.
For one thing, he treated her so poorly, based on her description.
But, even more surprising to me is that someone who had been so terrible was willing to look at his role. I would think that if someone acted as she describes, that type of person is not likely receptive to looking within.
Glad it has worked out. Must have been a lot of effort.


----------



## bandit.45

LongWalk said:


> Mr and Mrs John Adams had a sort of open marriage so they were not in a reconciliation that was monogamous.
> 
> The male and female reactions to infidelity are different. Women are more likely to consider reconciliation for a number of reasons. Economic pressure is one. But women also are more willing to compete for a man. A betrayed wife whose husband has gotten involved with a younger woman may see her situation as negative in terms of sex ranking. If she is in her 40s she may not be confident.
> 
> If one visits Surviving Infidelity or Reddit, one can read about wives who are trying to reconcile but struggle to rekindle sexual attraction for their betrayed husband.
> 
> There are also women who are full of regret and remorse (or at least protestations of them). But it is almost as if they succumbed to temptation simply to give themselves a really difficult project – winning back BH to whom the lies and fornication cannot be cleaned up even if they initially try.


Um, no that's not the way I remember it. Mrs. john Adams had a short EA with a football coach which culminated in a ONS. She either confessed or Mr. John Adams found out and then later on he had an EA.

But I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

bandit.45 said:


> Um, no that's not the way I remember it. Mrs. john Adams had a short EA with a football coach which culminated in a ONS. She either confessed or Mr. John Adams found out and then later on he had an EA.
> 
> But I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.


I don't remember anything about open marriage either. I also remember what you wrote here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Maxo said:


> From how EI describes her husband and marriage, assuming it is objectively true, it seems like a relatively rare situation.
> For one thing, he treated her so poorly, based on her description.
> But, even more surprising to me is that someone who had been so terrible was willing to look at his role. I would think that if someone acted as she describes, that type of person is not likely receptive to looking within.
> Glad it has worked out. Must have been a lot of effort.


I think there was mutually practiced humility there.


----------



## adriana

bandit.45 said:


> Um, no that's not the way I remember it. Mrs. john Adams had a short EA with a football coach which culminated in a ONS. She either confessed or Mr. John Adams found out and then later on he had an EA.
> 
> But I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.



Actually, Mrs. John Adams had an intense crash on her teacher who decided to have some discrete fun with her. After their lunch date she followed him to his house and they had a quick ODS (one day stand). If my memory doesn't fail me she was 27 at the time and had two children with Mr. John Adams.


----------



## bandit.45

adriana said:


> Actually, Mrs. John Adams had an intense crash on her teacher who decided to have some discrete fun with her. After their lunch date she followed him to his house and they had a quick ODS (one day stand). If my memory doesn't fail me she was 27 at the time and had two children with Mr. John Adams.


Thank you. 

Yes if I recall OM was also involved in sports or something. But yeah, from what I remember it was an impulsive thing she did. I don't recall if she or her husband were having problems or not before she did this. 

There will be some here will conclude he must have driven her to her affair through neglect or abuse. Because that's just what men do...


----------



## bandit.45

One aspect of failed Rs that we need to touch on is the endurance needed by the WS to do the hard work and take the slings and arrows from the BS. I think the reason why most waywards do not try to go back to their BSs is simply because they see how daunting a task R is going to be and then a certain amount of demoralization sets in. Couple this with the shame and embarrassment many cognizant waywards feel, and it is no wonder the majority run the opposite way and do not even attempt to coax their BSs back into R. 

As a wayward, you have to open yourself up and expose all the ugly parts of yourself to scrutiny...for years. Most are to scared to do it.

But what about pride? Ugly pride. How many waywards have their conscience telling them to go back to their BS cap in hand, but then their pride says "No! Save what little self respect you have for yourself. Don't lower yourself to accepting scraps from your BS!" So they don't even give it a try, or if they do, they impose conditions on the BS in exchange for their return. 

Fear, shame and pride, I think, are the three primary barriers to reconciliation.


----------



## Marduk

joannacroc said:


> You mean, hypothetically, would such a remorseless person, once their affair was discovered, try to come crawling back to their spouse? I would think it would be mostly annoyance at having their cake eating uncovered that might cause them to make some kind of overture, to save face with their own family or kids or community? But who knows. I remember a woman on TAM whose STBXH actually expected her to lend him her car to help the OW house, or something to that effect. It seems really common for WS to somehow feel there was a justification, so maybe that's why we don't hear a lot about people who crawl back?


From what I've seen it goes something like this for a wayward wife:

She's on a high from being chased and having sex with two men. She is getting tons of validation, tons of great sex, tons of attention. She's on top of the world. Even thinking about running away with the other man, even as a fantasy.

And then the husband finds out and it's dramatic but she has someone else to go to, right? So why try that hard. In a way, it's even better, because she can live the fantasy full-time!

And then she runs to the other man, for whom **** just got real and no fun, and he tells her (after having sex with her one last time of course) in no uncertain terms that this was just a fling and not serious.

And then she goes running home... to a locked door. 

And then she runs to the nearest toilet to throw up, because she's just gone from having the attention, love, support, and lust of two men to zero men. And then thoughts of the kids and "what will people think" and memories of the marriage come flooding in.

At least that's what I've seen. Unfortunately.

For the guys I've seen go through it, it seems to be more like "Oh, **** the wife found out. I'm going to end up broke and alone and everybody's going to think I'm an *******. Maybe she wasn't so bad after all."

I've never seen one (personally) where there wasn't at least an overture of being open to going back after the affair. Even a brief one.

My own ex, for example, was willing to "talk about things" if I agreed to pay her lawyer bill. Not an emotional pleading, to be sure, but it happened.


----------



## bandit.45

Good post Marduk. I think you have hit on some truth.

I think the wayward will initially put out a half-assed, conditional, timid "feeler" to gauge their BS's feelings. When the BS doesn't respond positively, many WSs say to themselves "Well...I tried!" They seem to think that is an attempt at R and comfort themselves with that illusion.


----------



## Marduk

bandit.45 said:


> Good post Marduk. I think you have hit on some truth.
> 
> I think the wayward will initially put out a half-assed, conditional, timid "feeler" to gauge their BS's feelings. When the BS doesn't respond positively, many WSs say to themselves "Well...I tried!" They seem to think that is an attempt at R and comfort themselves with that illusion.


Or to see if there's a guaranteed reconciliation on the table that's pretty easy to get.

"Can't you just get past it?"


----------



## SunCMars

Maxo said:


> SunCMars said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1 in 3000? Not possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Data comes from the NWS. The odds are 1 in 3000 per [each]person. Not that 1 in every 3000 people gets hit with the sparkling juice at some time in their life.
> 
> Earth-wide, there are millions of strikes per second.
> 
> Back to the thread.
> 
> My main point: Those WS's who do return, [more often than not] return to BS's who are often kind and forgiving or [indifferent?].
> 
> No surprise there, huh!
> 
> The Meek shall inherit the Earth. Some of the same meek(lees) shall suffer at the hands of cheaters, repeatedly...dammm it!
> 
> Still and per TAM, not many waywards seem to return.
Click to expand...


----------



## 86857

I'm not sure what percentage of WS come crawling back. 
In the vast majority of cases, if they crawl back, my guess is they are doing it for self-serving purposes. 
If not, why is a 100% remorseful WS such a rare commodity on TAM.
Check out the R threads on TAM. . . eeeek. . . sounds like the last thing anyone should do, or if so only in the rarest of cases. 
An A is always an elephant in the room, even 20 years later, 100% remorseful or not. There's a few threads about that too. 
So it's best if they DON"T come crawling back IMO.


----------



## honcho

bandit.45 said:


> One aspect of failed Rs that we need to touch on is the endurance needed by the WS to do the hard work and take the slings and arrows from the BS. I think the reason why most waywards do not try to go back to their BSs is simply because they see how daunting a task R is going to be and then a certain amount of demoralization sets in. Couple this with the shame and embarrassment many cognizant waywards feel, and it is no wonder the majority run the opposite way and do not even attempt to coax their BSs back into R.
> 
> As a wayward, you have to open yourself up and expose all the ugly parts of yourself to scrutiny...for years. Most are to scared to do it.
> 
> But what about pride? Ugly pride. How many waywards have their conscience telling them to go back to their BS cap in hand, but then their pride says "No! Save what little self respect you have for yourself. Don't lower yourself to accepting scraps from your BS!" So they don't even give it a try, or if they do, they impose conditions on the BS in exchange for their return.
> 
> Fear, shame and pride, I think, are the three primary barriers to reconciliation.


I think people on both sides of the fence underestimate the work, effort and time needed for R. Many WS don't even attempt because of false pride and the potential shame. I know in my ex's case even if the thought had ever crossed her mind her pride and ego would never allow herself to be "humiliated" by admitting to her friends and family all the lies and fantastic tales of wonderment. 

WS in many cases try chasing the emotional high that tends to come along with affairs, why go back to the old when they can find another soulmate. It's not unusual to see both male and female WS blow thru a number of relationships/flings before they realize it's an empty hollow life. By that time the BS has generally moved on.


----------



## sidney2718

LongWalk said:


> Mr and Mrs John Adams had a sort of open marriage so they were not in a reconciliation that was monogamous.


I'm pretty sure that Mrs. J. A. wouldn't put it that way at all. But I'm fairly certain that she'll be along in a while to respond herself.


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> Sorry to hear that. But, despite the expense, cheating is not justified as divorce is readily available.


Divorce is only cheap in some states that allow "collaborative" divorces. That's where H and W and a mediator hash out all the details, get them written up, and submit them.

But if they can't agree, be it visitation of kids, alimony, disposition of family debt, who is to get the house, etc., etc., etc. it can quickly get very very expensive.

Even having to ask your lawyer to petition the judge to order your spouse to produce the information pertaining to child support can up the bill by thousands.

There are organizations that can help the indigent (usually the wife) get a divorce taken care of, but the indigent has to know about the organization and have transportation available to get there.

And those spouses who are afraid of abuse at the hand of their spouse (not always the male) have even more trouble.


----------



## CTPlay

With my ex, she would never come crawling back. Her affair was the most magical moment of her life. Or at least that was what I had heard in the past. 

I can't imagine her coming back. That would be the most awkward nightmare for both of us. 

I am a supporter of moving toward the divorce stage quickly. In my mind, the worst that can happen is not losing a cheater that "might" have been, but going through a false R after years. And there are brutal threads about this. 

In my opinion, an affair is a divorce. It is the ultimate final statement.


----------



## LongWalk

bandit.45 said:


> Um, no that's not the way I remember it. Mrs. john Adams had a short EA with a football coach which culminated in a ONS. She either confessed or Mr. John Adams found out and then later on he had an EA.
> 
> 
> 
> But I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.



She and her husband were expelled from TAM due to her sending out naked photos to TAM members who paid her back with money shots. He was in on it.


----------



## VeryHurt

Nomorebeans said:


> This.
> 
> I had this revelation about a month ago. I realized that there is nothing he could do or say that would hurt me any more than he already has. He could propose to her and marry her on the beach tomorrow at sunset with our son as his Best Man, and that would be a walk in the park compared to his repeated lying and abject cruelty he inflicted after I found out.


NMB ~
I understand exactly what you mean. Thinking about the mental and emotionally cruelty that I also endured for years can take my breath away at times. Be Strong my Friend.
VH


----------



## VeryHurt

I experienced 4 episodes of "reconciliation" over the past 7 years and they each proved to be a farce. Once he was smitten by a new younger adventurous, he never completely return to be the person I knew before he cheated.

Looking back, the false hope and phony attempts at reconciliation were his way to stall the process because he preferred to keep us both instead of sharing his assets with me.

After the fact, I discovered he kept in contact with the OW while he was back home with me supposedly "working on our marriage."

My hope was built up and then knocked down time and time again and that is the main source of my anger and lack of respect for him. If he didn't want me anymore, he should have stayed away.

Money and making sure he did not lose the OW proved to be more important to him than saving our 30 year marriage. 

I once explained to my therapist that he came back home to me but he left his heart at the bottom of the driveway.


----------



## EI

LongWalk said:


> She and her husband were expelled from TAM due to her sending out naked photos to TAM members who paid her back with money shots. He was in on it.


Unless you have evidence of that, that you can back up, that is a mighty serious accusation to make against someone. Especially against a couple who are no longer here to defend themselves. And, contrary to what was stated earlier in this thread, they never posted anything about having an open marriage. They posted that she had a ONS with her college professor, who was also a well known basketball coach, and he had an RA that lasted for about a day, as well. 

From the tone of your posts regarding Mr. & Mrs. JA, one might suspect that someone was scorned that they might have missed out on all of this "alleged" action.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

VeryHurt said:


> I experienced 4 episodes of "reconciliation" over the past 7 years and they each proved to me a farce. Once he was smitten by a new younger adventurous, he never completely return to be the person I knew before he cheated.
> 
> Looking back, the false hope and phony attempts at reconciliation were his way to stall the process because he preferred to keep us both instead of sharing his assets with me.
> 
> After the fact, I discovered he kept in contact with the OW while he was back home with me supposedly "working on our marriage."
> 
> My hope was built up and then knocked down time and time again and that is the main source of my anger and lack of respect for him. If he didn't want me anymore, he should have stayed away.
> 
> Money and making sure he did not lose the OW proved to be more important to him than saving our 30 year marriage.
> 
> I once explained to my therapist that he came back home to me but he left his heart at the bottom of the driveway.


Same story here friend. 8 years of false reconciliations, either because he was kicked out by her after a fight or he came home to check to see that things were intact and in place. I'm reading the "I've Been Played" thread and wonder why the hell I didn't find this place 8 years ago.


----------



## bandit.45

LongWalk said:


> She and her husband were expelled from TAM due to her sending out naked photos to TAM members who paid her back with money shots. He was in on it.


No they didn't. That was OMyGoditsJoe and some other hussie. You are getting your TAMers mixed up. 

Mr and Mrs Adams are still members, they just choose not to participate.


----------



## VeryHurt

TeddieG said:


> Same story here friend. 8 years of false reconciliations, either because he was kicked out by her after a fight or he came home to check to see that things were intact and in place. I'm reading the "I've Been Played" thread and wonder why the hell I didn't find this place 8 years ago.


I here ya Teddie ............if we only knew then what we know now !!
Wasted, wasted, wasted years !!!!!!! And we will never get them back!
VH


----------



## Philat

bandit.45 said:


> No they didn't. That was OMyGoditsJoe and some other hussie. You are getting your TAMers mixed up.
> 
> Mr and Mrs Adams are still members, they just choose not to participate.


Correct, Bandit. Also, with reference to other posts regarding them in this thread, Mr and Mrs. JA certainly did not have an open marriage. Mrs. JA was feeling inadequate for certain reasons and her Evil Professor took advantage. She thought they were going to have a lunch date but he steered her into a ODS instead--never even bought her a meal!


----------



## Nomorebeans

VH and TeddieG, I'm so sorry for all you've both been through. I count it as a blessing that my ex chose the OW over me and walked away to her. Reconciliation is hard as nails, even under circumstances like MattMatt's or MountainRunner's, where the WS sincerely wants to save the marriage and is truly remorseful and transparent. False reconciliation is like doubling down on the worst thing (aside from physical abuse) you could possibly do to someone you supposedly loved enough to marry.


----------



## LongWalk

EI said:


> Unless you have evidence of that, that you can back up, that is a mighty serious accusation to make against someone. Especially against a couple who are no longer here to defend themselves. And, contrary to what was stated earlier in this thread, they never posted anything about having an open marriage. They posted that she had a ONS with her college professor, who was also a well known basketball coach, and he had an RA that lasted for about a day, as well.
> 
> From the tone of your posts regarding Mr. & Mrs. JA, one might suspect that someone was scorned that they might have missed out on all of this "alleged" action.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have nothing against them.

If you check the link, you will discover that nearly everything she posted is gone. None of her own threads remain. I could not have made up such a story. It was written about in the banned members thread, though I do see that she is not banned.

In any case, I merely wanted to point out that comment that brought them up as a couple in reconciliation, listed them as an example of a rare reconciliation. My reply was that there marriage was not conventional.

I don't believe I mixed them up with other posters. But if I did I will certain apologize.

Returning to the topic, an example of an imperfect reconciliation would be Racer. He stayed with his wife but he never found her capable of genuine remorse. He stayed in any case. I think he felt irritation and discomfort.

Another example of imperfect reconciliation was the music teacher married to the art teacher. She had an affair with a student. She trickle truthed him and was in false R for period. She was sorry and I believe she genuinely wanted to have her old marriage back but it was gone. If they stayed together I hope that they managed to reconnect. Her husband was also on TAM.

Mrs. Matthias...I think that was her name.


----------



## Philat

LongWalk said:


> In any case, I merely wanted to point out that comment that brought them up as a couple in reconciliation, listed them as an example of a rare reconciliation. *My reply was that there marriage was not conventional.
> 
> I don't believe I mixed them up with other posters.* But if I did I will certain apologize.


Hi, LongWalk. I think you might in fact be mixing up some elements. Mr and Mrs JA had a conventional monogamous marriage before the unfortunate events, and have had one for the 30+ years since.


----------



## 3putt

Hey, Philat! Good to hear from you. Hope life is treating you well.


----------



## EI

LongWalk said:


> I have nothing against them.
> 
> If you check the link, you will discover that nearly everything she posted is gone. None of her own threads remain. I could not have made up such a story. It was written about in the banned members thread, though I do see that she is not banned.
> 
> In any case, I merely wanted to point out that comment that brought them up as a couple in reconciliation, listed them as an example of a rare reconciliation. My reply was that there marriage was not conventional.
> 
> I don't believe I mixed them up with other posters. But if I did I will certain apologize.
> 
> Returning to the topic, an example of an imperfect reconciliation would be Racer. He stayed with his wife but he never found her capable of genuine remorse. He stayed in any case. I think he felt irritation and discomfort.
> 
> Another example of imperfect reconciliation was the music teacher married to the art teacher. She had an affair with a student. She trickle truthed him and was in false R for period. She was sorry and I believe she genuinely wanted to have her old marriage back but it was gone. If they stayed together I hope that they managed to reconnect. Her husband was also on TAM.
> 
> Mrs. Matthias...I think that was her name.


You did, in fact, mix them up with another TAM couple, as Bandit has already pointed out to you. And, with the facts of that situation being as vile as they were, verifying the accuracy of the couple in question would have been the responsible thing to do. 

With regard to Mr. & Mrs. Mathias, they are still married to one another, raising their two sons, and appear to have reconciled, although I don't know any further details.


----------



## larry.gray

bandit.45 said:


> No they didn't. That was OMyGoditsJoe and some other hussie. You are getting your TAMers mixed up.
> 
> Mr and Mrs Adams are still members, they just choose not to participate.


It is OMyGoditsJoe and OMyGoditsElaine. More so her that was pulling that stunt.

At the same time that happened, Mr and Mrs Adams were temporarily banned. They are both nudists. They had a few photos in albums that included non-sexual nudity. The photos were removed and they got a time out.

After that they announced they were leaving. A little over that event and a lot that they felt they got help here, but it was no longer helpful to remain.


----------



## sidney2718

********** said:


> I'm not sure what percentage of WS come crawling back.
> In the vast majority of cases, if they crawl back, my guess is they are doing it for self-serving purposes.
> If not, why is a 100% remorseful WS such a rare commodity on TAM.
> Check out the R threads on TAM. . . eeeek. . . sounds like the last thing anyone should do, or if so only in the rarest of cases.
> An A is always an elephant in the room, even 20 years later, 100% remorseful or not. There's a few threads about that too.
> So it's best if they DON"T come crawling back IMO.


Perhaps it is the response of the TAM regulars that keeps them from posting here. For a typical example look at EI's thread:

how-much-detail

Given that we know how it all worked out, read the vicious attacks on EI. A measure of her strength is that she did not stop posting on TAM.


----------



## sidney2718

LongWalk said:


> She and her husband were expelled from TAM due to her sending out naked photos to TAM members who paid her back with money shots. He was in on it.


This is not true. To avoid a thread jack I will not reply further in public.


----------



## 3putt

sidney2718 said:


> Given that we know how it all worked out, read the vicious attacks on EI. A measure of her strength is that she did not stop posting on TAM.


She's one helluva woman in my book.

ETA- And B1 is one helluva man as well.


----------



## Philat

larry.gray said:


> At the same time that happened, Mr and Mrs Adams were temporarily banned. They are both nudists. They had a few photos in albums that included non-sexual nudity. The photos were removed and they got a time out.


Hi, Larry. Point of clarification: The photos in question were in the Adamses' own extensive vacation photo albums, to which they provided links to a few TAM friends. Those few photos that could be considered nudies were actually quite modest. The photos were not in TAM-hosted albums.


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## GusPolinski

@Philat!!!


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> Perhaps it is the response of the TAM regulars that keeps them from posting here. For a typical example look at EI's thread:
> 
> how-much-detail
> 
> Given that we know how it all worked out, read the vicious attacks on EI. A measure of her strength is that she did not stop posting on TAM.


Perhaps those" attacks" played a role in her , finally, accepting full responsibility for the cheating. She seemed pretty entrenched in justifying, initially.


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> I have nothing against them.
> 
> If you check the link, you will discover that nearly everything she posted is gone. None of her own threads remain. I could not have made up such a story. It was written about in the banned members thread, though I do see that she is not banned.
> 
> In any case, I merely wanted to point out that comment that brought them up as a couple in reconciliation, listed them as an example of a rare reconciliation. My reply was that there marriage was not conventional.
> 
> I don't believe I mixed them up with other posters. But if I did I will certain apologize.
> 
> Returning to the topic, an example of an imperfect reconciliation would be Racer. He stayed with his wife but he never found her capable of genuine remorse. He stayed in any case. I think he felt irritation and discomfort.
> 
> Another example of imperfect reconciliation was the music teacher married to the art teacher. She had an affair with a student. She trickle truthed him and was in false R for period. She was sorry and I believe she genuinely wanted to have her old marriage back but it was gone. If they stayed together I hope that they managed to reconnect. Her husband was also on TAM.
> 
> Mrs. Matthias...I think that was her name.


3 D days for Mr. Matthias...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## EI

3putt said:


> She's one helluva woman in my book.
> 
> Thank you very much, 3putt.
> 
> ETA- And B1 is one helluva man as well.
> 
> Yes, he is!!!


It's almost 4 years later and I still feel like I'm living a dream with B1. His goodness, mercy, compassion, and ability to not only forgive me, but to love me the most, when I was the least deserving of his love, just astounds me. He continues to step up every single day, to be the best possible husband and father that he can be. He went from being a shell of a man, due to his, then, Testosterone deficiency, to being the most incredible man I have ever known. 

I don't know if our situation is really that rare, or different. I often believe that it isn't, but that too many can't withstand the initial _TAM Welcoming Committee,_ so their stories are never fully shared. A decades long marriage cannot be summed up in just a few posts. I know that had B1 not started posting here within a few days after I made my first post that I would not have stuck around. It was just too difficult. Posting our story here, together, as it was unfolding, helped bring us back together. Though our marriage was in complete shambles, it created an us against the establishment type of dynamic. 

For me, (after the first few confusing and difficult months for both of us) doing the heavy lifting, making amends, and working to make B1 feel safe, and able to trust me, again, wasn't a terrible burden, nor should it have been. It wasn't something that he had to constantly push me to do. If a BS feels like their fWS isn't "getting it," or isn't at least trying to give them what they need to heal, then they need to just stop and walk away. If a fWS genuinely wants to help their spouse heal, if they are genuinely remorseful for their choices, and for pain that their BS is in because of their actions, then they won't have to be cooerced into making amends. They will desire to do it.


It was emotionally draining, at first, for both of us, but the rewards have been beautiful. During that time, we became closer than we had ever been in our entire 3 decade long relationship. And, we continue to grow closer every day. Loving B1 is the easiest thing I've ever done in my entire life. Being loved by B1 is the greatest blessing I have ever received. 

BTW, I want to give a little shout out to some of my favs on this thread. It feels like a mini-reunion. Bandit, sidney, 3putt, larry.gray, Philat, and Gus, you guys are some of the very best of TAM. Your collective wisdom here is invaluable. B1 and I both count ourselves as beneficiaries.

Take care,
~ EI


----------



## Marc878

Unfortunately EI you are an exception not usually the rule.

Glad you're doing well


----------



## EI

Maxo said:


> Perhaps those" attacks" played a role in her , finally, accepting full responsibility for the cheating. She seemed pretty entrenched in justifying, initially.


The "attacks" were not helpful for either of us. The tremendous amount of guidance, along with compassion, that we received from B1's Reconciliation thread gave us both the tools, as well as the support, that we needed to survive, then thrive. 2 x 4's aren't the appropriate tools if reconciliation is the desired goal of _both_ parties, and_ for all of the right reasons. _At least, not in my opinion. It sounds very cliche to say this on TAM, but our marriage truly was over before my A began, and we both knew it. I had worked very hard to save our marriage long before my A began, but B1 was not able to respond to my efforts, at that time, due to his (then) extremely low levels of Testosterone. Eventually, I gave up, told him of my plans to divorce him within the next two years, and told him that I would not wait for love if an opportunity came my way. B1 remained detached. And, just to be clear, I had not begun my A, nor did I have anyone in particular in mind. I had not yet even been in contact with the man who would soon become my AP. What I did not do was tell B1 when my A began. I had finally become detached, myself, and I no longer felt any respect or love for him, and I didn't feel a sense of obligation to welcome any potential unwanted conflict from B1, whose only genuine interest in me, at that point, was in maintaining the status quo. Reading this now is like reading about someone else. It was me, but it was me at the lowest point of my life. 

The early "attacks" on Tam were pretty brutal and nearly drove me away from here on more than one occasion. You won't find them in our old threads because the mods had to clean them up on multiple occasions. It isn't a real popular notion around here, but I didn't need to be attacked, I needed to be heard, to be understood, something that B1 was either unwilling or incapable of doing before his treatment for low T. 

When you have both spouses on TAM, sharing their story, the same story, and they didn't come here to beat up on one another, but instead to find help for themselves, as well as for guidance on how to best help their spouse best get through the situation, then it's seems that the "attacking" is for the benefit of the attacker only. If we truly wish to help people, then we need to be willing to meet them where they are, and not where we think they should be. 

I hope my responses have given you some clarity regarding your comments to my posts, Maxo. Our story is quite lengthy, and it has been told so many times on TAM, that I hesitate to keep re-telling it. But, when a new poster comes here and asks me questions, I can't really suggest that they go read through thousands of our old posts.


----------



## LongWalk

larry.gray said:


> It is OMyGoditsJoe and OMyGoditsElaine. More so her that was pulling that stunt.
> 
> At the same time that happened, Mr and Mrs Adams were temporarily banned. They are both nudists. They had a few photos in albums that included non-sexual nudity. The photos were removed and they got a time out.
> 
> After that they announced they were leaving. A little over that event and a lot that they felt they got help here, but it was no longer helpful to remain.


Why would they have photo albums of non-sexual nudity on TAM?

Mrs John Adams wrote more than her husband and I think she counts a valuable contributor to TAM. She was bridge between wayward and betrayed spouses. She was a thoughtful person who addressed difficult questions.

I assume that Mr. J Adams allowed her to put of the nude photos to give her so-called ego kibbles. Maybe he liked hearing people praise his wife for her looks.

Also, EI is a great TAM contributor. And I think she is esteemed for having helped many even when she wrongly became the target of BH anger.


----------



## 86857

sidney2718 said:


> Perhaps it is the response of the TAM regulars that keeps them from posting here. For a typical example look at EI's thread:


Good point @sidney2718
For a more balanced post, my second sentence should have read: 
_"*On TAM*, in the vast majority of cases when WS 'crawl back', they seem to be doing it for self-serving purposes. . . but then maybe WS who are 100% remorseful don't post on here because they may be subject to vicious attacks."_
I read through EI's thread. 
@EI you are an amazing lady. . . and to have stayed on TAM despite the vicious attacks. Sheesh! Your H is an amazing guy too. 
Huge kudos to you both for R. 
I hope there are many untold stories like yours and I wish you and your H all the best.


----------



## Maxo

EI said:


> The "attacks" were not helpful for either of us. The tremendous amount of guidance, along with compassion, that we received from B1's Reconciliation thread gave us both the tools, as well as the support, that we needed to survive, then thrive. 2 x 4's aren't the appropriate tools if reconciliation is the desired goal of _both_ parties, and_ for all of the right reasons. _At least, not in my opinion. It sounds very cliche to say this on TAM, but our marriage truly was over before my A began, and we both knew it. I had worked very hard to save our marriage long before my A began, but B1 was not able to respond to my efforts, at that time, due to his (then) extremely low levels of Testosterone. Eventually, I gave up, told him of my plans to divorce him within the next two years, and told him that I would not wait for love if an opportunity came my way. B1 remained detached. And, just to be clear, I had not begun my A, nor did I have anyone in particular in mind. I had not yet even been in contact with the man who would soon become my AP. What I did not do was tell B1 when my A began. I had finally become detached, myself, and I no longer felt any respect or love for him, and I didn't feel a sense of obligation to welcome any potential unwanted conflict from B1, whose only genuine interest in me, at that point, was in maintaining the status quo. Reading this now is like reading about someone else. It was me, but it was me at the lowest point of my life.
> 
> The early "attacks" on Tam were pretty brutal and nearly drove me away from here on more than one occasion. You won't find them in our old threads because the mods had to clean them up on multiple occasions. It isn't a real popular notion around here, but I didn't need to be attacked, I needed to be heard, to be understood, something that B1 was either unwilling or incapable of doing before his treatment for low T.
> 
> When you have both spouses on TAM, sharing their story, the same story, and they didn't come here to beat up on one another, but instead to find help for themselves, as well as for guidance on how to best help their spouse best get through the situation, then it's seems that the "attacking" is for the benefit of the attacker only. If we truly wish to help people, then we need to be willing to meet them where they are, and not where we think they should be.
> 
> I hope my responses have given you some clarity regarding your comments to my posts, Maxo. Our story is quite lengthy, and it has been told so many times on TAM, that I hesitate to keep re-telling it. But, when a new poster comes here and asks me questions, I can't really suggest that they go read through thousands of our old posts.


I am not the type to beat up on another. But, I must say that it is my personal belief that cheating constitutes severe emotional abuse and is never the right response to marital dissatisfaction. Ther are honorable,non abusive options.


----------



## adriana

Maxo said:


> Perhaps those" attacks" played a role in her , finally, accepting full responsibility for the cheating. She seemed pretty entrenched in justifying, initially.



Nope.... just a$$hols being a$$hols. Nothing else. I'm a BS and have been a subject of the same treatment at TAM. 

As far as EI is concerned.... her BH is very fortunate that she was gracious enough to give him a second chance. I know that I wouldn't be so understanding if I were her.


----------



## bandit.45

Maxo said:


> Perhaps those" attacks" played a role in her , finally, accepting full responsibility for the cheating. She seemed pretty entrenched in justifying, initially.


She was foggy. 

E1 and B1's story was a bit different from the average tale of marital discord we see here on TAM. B1 was by his own accounts a sh!tty husband and E1, while very angry and a bit defensive when she first came on board, did eventually own her sh!t (maybe not to be degree most of us would like) and worked through her own issues. 

They seem to have come to a parity with each other now and are working through a pretty successful R. 

To each their own. What they are doing is working for them and I think we should support it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

adriana said:


> Nope.... just a$$hols being a$$hols. Nothing else. I'm a BS and have been a subject of the same treatment at TAM.
> 
> As far as EI is concerned.... her BH is very fortunate that she was gracious enough to give him a second chance. I know that I wouldn't be so understanding if I were her.


I was not around when that thread was going, So, I was not privy to all the posts. But, as another poster mentioned, , she was foggy and, it seemed to me justifying. I guess if I had cheated, I would cut my spouse a lot of slack for past behavior, as I would view my own as equally egregious.


----------



## TeddieG

Nomorebeans said:


> VH and TeddieG, I'm so sorry for all you've both been through. I count it as a blessing that my ex chose the OW over me and walked away to her. Reconciliation is hard as nails, even under circumstances like MattMatt's or MountainRunner's, where the WS sincerely wants to save the marriage and is truly remorseful and transparent. False reconciliation is like doubling down on the worst thing (aside from physical abuse) you could possibly do to someone you supposedly loved enough to marry.


Thank you, @Nomorebeans. It sure kept my hopes up and made detaching really hard. But I'm quickly getting over him now. While I don't hate him, many days I feel as if I do, so I guess that helps me get over things. Even so, I am angry he wouldn't talk to me about what was bothering him. I've met a nice man that I only see at a local watering hole, where we talk and get to know each other, no dates yet, and don't want to. We were together 11 years before HE decided HE wanted us to get married, and two years later he was cheating. I'll never understand it. It just is what it is.


----------



## Disposable

Well, that's been my story. My WS immediately tucked his tail and came home when his A was discovered. Not sure why our story is different but we have been married for 30 years/2 adult children. He has admittedly dealt with other women behind my back for 8 years, I believe it was a lot longer. He also confessed to flirting, texting, and phone calls to other women during that time. Anyway, now that he is back, I believe he has been no contact and hardly goes anywhere without me. He has been actively showing and professing his love for me the last 12 months like no other time in our marriage.
He has also confessed and come to terms with being a narcissist. He tells me he loves me, he's attracted to me, enjoys sex with me and wants to spend the rest of our lives together. Not sure what to make of it, but he wants sex all the time. I have been deeply hurt but I have not tried to persuade his feelings for me. I do know that his behavior now is in vast contradiction to his behavior during the affair.
I don't know what to believe, but we are still working on recovery, including counseling. 

Still hyper-vigilant, untrusting, and deeply wounded.


----------



## Philat

LongWalk said:


> Why would they have photo albums of non-sexual nudity on TAM?


LW, just to reiterate for accuracy: none of those photos were on TAM. They were in private albums on a file-sharing site (I forget which one).


----------



## EI

LongWalk said:


> Also, EI is a great TAM contributor. And I think she is esteemed for having helped many even when she wrongly became the target of BH anger.





********** said:


> Good point @sidney2718
> For a more balanced post, my second sentence should have read:
> _"*On TAM*, in the vast majority of cases when WS 'crawl back', they seem to be doing it for self-serving purposes. . . but then maybe WS who are 100% remorseful don't post on here because they may be subject to vicious attacks."_
> I read through EI's thread.
> @EI you are an amazing lady. . . and to have stayed on TAM despite the vicious attacks. Sheesh! Your H is an amazing guy too.
> Huge kudos to you both for R.
> I hope there are many untold stories like yours and I wish you and your H all the best.



Thank you both, very much. I never looked ahead in my life and imagined receiving praise in relation to being a fWS. I never imagined being a WS, at all. It's not a label that I wear with pride. It will always be my greatest personal regret. I would strongly encourage anyone who is considering divorce, or even in the process of getting a one, to wait until the ink is dry on their divorce papers before getting involved with someone else. If, for any reason, you become involved in a situation that you wouldn't feel comfortable discussing with your parents, your siblings, your best friend, your co-workers, your neighbors, and most of all your spouse and your children, chances are, you shouldn't be in that situation. 

You can't compartmentalize away your conscience, it follows you everywhere. You can turn away from your poor choices and choose not to be that person any longer, but you can't undo those choices, and you can't control the lasting effects that they might have on others. My therapist once told me that, on average, infidelity will have a negative impact on approximately 40 people. That seemed unrealistic until he helped me add it up. In our marriage, my decision to have an A, upon my husband's discovery, had an almost immediate and negative impact on at least 28 family members and close friends, who were all instrumental in helping us pick up the shattered pieces of our lives. And, that number doesn't even include TAM's Reconciliation thread 'regulars,' who were truly a godsend throughout the first year of our recovery. 

When a BH, who is in obvious pain, approaches me on TAM with their questions, I try my best to answer them with compassion, but most importantly, with honesty, which can be difficult for a BH to hear, and can quite understandably rub some of them the wrong way. I'm never suggesting that the circumstances of my marriage mirror the circumstances of others, I'm merely sharing my story because it's the only one I have to share. The answers aren't pretty, because infidelity isn't pretty, but if I were to sugar coat my responses in order to spare their feelings, what would be the point of responding to them, at all? 

My mindset shortly before, during, and in the first couple of months after my A, was far different than it is now. B1 and I openly shared our feelings on TAM along the way. I posted my first thread 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day, when I was still very much in the _fog_. B1 posted his first thread 2 or 3 days later. Some days were extremely difficult for us and we shared it, some days we were not sure that we could make it work, and we shared it. Gradually, we began having some "okay" days, and we shared it. After a couple of months, we started to have some hope, happiness, and anticipation for our future, and we shared it.

The Reconciliation thread was a thread where both, BS's and WS's were offered practical advice, from everyone else's collective experience, as well as a compassionate heart. We didn't attack WS's or BS's who didn't conform to the TAM doctrine. We met them where they were, and as a result, we were all able to gain a tremendous amount of unfiltered insight from one another. The R thread was more instrumental in our recovery than our actual therapist was, although I do think he was, and remains, a very good counselor.

When a BS on TAM chooses to _repeatedly_ come at me in anger, I respond with less compassion and more defensiveness. I believe that I owe my husband, and our children, (who are all grown) my humility, my compassion, and my loyalty, but I do not owe my humility to an angry BS, who wants to take shots at me because they didn't get what they needed from their own WS. I didn't betray _them_, I am not their WS, nor am I responsible for their WS's actions. If I allow an angry BS to take their anger out on me, then it can begin to have a negative impact on me and my interactions with my own family, which I cannot allow. To suggest that all WS's are motivated for the same reasons is as inaccurate as suggesting that all BS's are exactly the same. Every individual, and every marriage has it's own unique set of circumstances. If this forum is truly interested in helping people _cope with infidelity, _ then we need to be willing to meet them where they are when they arrive.

B1 and I were some of the lucky ones. We were able to benefit from so many of the wise and caring TAM members who were actively posting at the time. Many of of you are still here. Unfortunately, there are always a few posters in CWI who have no interest in helping any WS cope with infidelity, unless said WS is willing to stick to a very specific but, sometimes, inaccurate script.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Speaking of coming crawling back, good to see you posting again @Philat

I was going thru my old thread recently and appreciated your advice at the time. Hope you are doing well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VeryHurt

Disposable said:


> Well, that's been my story. My WS immediately tucked his tail and came home when his A was discovered. Not sure why our story is different but we have been married for 30 years/2 adult children. He has admittedly dealt with other women behind my back for 8 years, I believe it was a lot longer. He also confessed to flirting, texting, and phone calls to other women during that time. Anyway, now that he is back, I believe he has been no contact and hardly goes anywhere without me. He has been actively showing and professing his love for me the last 12 months like no other time in our marriage.
> He has also confessed and come to terms with being a narcissist. He tells me he loves me, he's attracted to me, enjoys sex with me and wants to spend the rest of our lives together. Not sure what to make of it, but he wants sex all the time. I have been deeply hurt but I have not tried to persuade his feelings for me. I do know that his behavior now is in vast contradiction to his behavior during the affair.
> I don't know what to believe, but we are still working on recovery, including counseling.
> 
> Still hyper-vigilant, untrusting, and deeply wounded.


Disposable ~

I got a shiver reading your post as I have been in your shoes. Married 33 years, 1 son 30 years old, STBX has been cheating since 2009, 4 attempts at reconciliation. 

Your last sentence triggered a punch in my gut: "Still hyper-vigilant, untrusting and deeply wounded." Aren't those feelings killing you? How do you do it?

I will add that the difference with your H is that he is showing affection and he tells you he loves you. That is a good sign. My STBX was as cold as ice when he moved back home. It was such a farce.

Can you elaborate on your H admitting he was/is a narcissist?

I wish you the very best!

VH


----------



## EI

Maxo said:


> I was not around when that thread was going, So, I was not privy to all the posts. But, as another poster mentioned, , she was foggy and, it seemed to me justifying. I guess if I had cheated, I would cut my spouse a lot of slack for past behavior, as I would view my own as equally egregious.


I was still very _foggy_, and I was trying to justify my choices when I first started posting here. I think that's what most people tend to do when they have done something that is so egregious, in comparison to their values, they seek ways to justify it. I was extremely defensive and defiant, because I genuinely believed every word that I was saying, at that point. I had to find a way to come to terms with my actions, both during and immediately after my A, in order to live with myself. 

That's why I have suggested that we need to try to meet people where they are, and not where we think they should be, when they arrive. Some people post their stories months, and even years, after the fact, when the dust has already settled, but when they are right in the middle of the storm, the view is much different. 

B1 and I have both done a tremendous amount of work on ourselves since that time, and we have both gone to great efforts (I don't even want to call it work) to be loving, compassionate, merciful, and forgiving spouses towards one another, as well. That part doesn't feel like work, anymore, it feels like a beautiful blessing to us that we now have a relationship that is more amazing than it ever was in the past.

We don't actually need to cut each other _slack_ for our past behavior, anymore, because we've already worked through it, and quite honestly, we don't live there, anymore. We live in the here and now. We'll always be cognizant of our history, but we truly do not dwell in it.


----------



## larry.gray

LongWalk said:


> Why would they have photo albums of non-sexual nudity on TAM?


I was corrected on that just a few posts up. There were links, not photos hosted here.



Philat said:


> Hi, Larry. Point of clarification: The photos in question were in the Adamses' own extensive vacation photo albums, to which they provided links to a few TAM friends. Those few photos that could be considered nudies were actually quite modest. The photos were not in TAM-hosted albums.





LongWalk said:


> I assume that Mr. J Adams allowed her to put of the nude photos to give her so-called ego kibbles. Maybe he liked hearing people praise his wife for her looks.


They talked about being naturalists. I don't think there is more than that behind it.


----------



## larry.gray

EI said:


> It sounds very cliche to say this on TAM, but our marriage truly was over before my A began, and we both knew it. I had worked very hard to save our marriage long before my A began, but B1 was not able to respond to my efforts, at that time, due to his (then) extremely low levels of Testosterone. Eventually, I gave up, told him of my plans to divorce him within the next two years, and told him that I would not wait for love if an opportunity came my way. B1 remained detached. And, just to be clear, I had not begun my A, nor did I have anyone in particular in mind. I had not yet even been in contact with the man who would soon become my AP. What I did not do was tell B1 when my A began. I had finally become detached, myself, and I no longer felt any respect or love for him, and I didn't feel a sense of obligation to welcome any potential unwanted conflict from B1, whose only genuine interest in me, at that point, was in maintaining the status quo.


As I've told you before, I could have walked down the road you went, but didn't only because of "resultant moral luck." No woman dangled the opportunity at the exact right time; before or after that I wouldn't have, but I was vulnerable to that at one point in time. 

Reading what you just wrote does concern me about one of my wife's friends / coworkers. She is right now where you were prior to starting your affair. The similarities are very close. The same ages and even some of the same personal struggles. She's even said to others that "if the right man comes along I'm gone" to multiple people. Her husband doesn't seem to give a ****. I think he just assumes she'll never do anything because she hasn't up till now. I have suggested to my wife that she's primed for an affair, but my wife thinks "she's to moral for that."

If you have advice, I'm all ears.



EI said:


> I hope my responses have given you some clarity regarding your comments to my posts, Maxo. Our story is quite lengthy, and it has been told so many times on TAM, that I hesitate to keep re-telling it. But, when a new poster comes here and asks me questions, I can't really suggest that they go read through thousands of our old posts.


Have you considered doing a lengthy "my story" to put on your profile?


----------



## bandit.45

Maxo said:


> I was not around when that thread was going, So, I was not privy to all the posts. But, as another poster mentioned, , she was foggy and, it seemed to me justifying. I guess if I had cheated, I would cut my spouse a lot of slack for past behavior, as I would view my own as equally egregious.


Every marriage is different. And although affairs generally follow the same pattern, in E1's case she all but told B1 that she was done with the relationship and ready to move on. E1 always struck me as a Walkaway Wife who walked into the arms of her AP. Does that excuse her having the affair? No, and I think she will admit that. She could have divorced B1...she could have separated or kicked him out or done a lot of other things. I think she was in a bad emotional state, in a bad place overall, and in that bad state she made a series of bad decisions. 

B1 offered her an olive branch, agreed to work on himself, his T issues, and his poor attitude.... and she responded in turn. She owned her sh!t, apologized to their kids and family, and took responsibility for her mistakes. They beat the odds and saved their marriage by working together. 

We may not agree with their R. We may see what B1 did as rugsweeping. But at the end of the day, B1 and E1 compromised and came to their own agreement about what each of them needed, what they would not accept from each other, and what they would do for each other going forwards. 

And for the record, I was one of those who came down on E1 very hard, so much so that she has never let me forget it. :wink2: My goal wasn't to flog her or humiliate her, but to call her out on what I perceived was a lot of bullsh!t excuse-making there at the beginning. 

But that is in the past. E1 and B1 are both very different people now, and E1 has become a valued contributor to this forum.


----------



## Maxo

Fro my reading, I have found that a very high % of BSs have walked in EI's shoes during the marriage: lack of sex, lack of intimacy, trying like crazy to figure out how to fix things with little input from the WS.


----------



## bandit.45

> I had finally become detached, myself, and I no longer felt any respect or love for him


E1 this is the only part of your story that I don't buy. :wink2:

You may have perceived that you felt this way, but I believe there was always an ember of love for B1 glowing deep underneath all the ashes. 

All it required was some gentle stoking by him to get it to glow, and then the two of you added the tinder together and got the fire going again. 

I think that is why it is so tragic that so many Wayward Spouses won't do the hard work to re-stoke the fire of their love for their BSs. Fear, shame and pride: the reconciliation killers. E1 somehow reached down inside herself and found a way to bypass those roadblocks and make her way back to loving her husband.


----------



## bandit.45

Maxo said:


> Fro my reading, I have found that a very high % of BSs have walked in EI's shoes during the marriage: lack of sex, lack of intimacy, trying like crazy to figure out how to fix things with little input from the WS.


I would say that probably 40% to 50% of most affairs occur when either one or both of the partners are neglecting the relationship or neglecting each other's needs. 

Most of the really penitent waywards I have seen are shocked when, after some MC, they realize that they were just as neglectful towards their BS's needs. The other 50% of cheaters cheat because they want to, or they have sh!t for boundaries...


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## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> I would say that probably 40% to 50% of most affairs occur when either one or both of the partners are neglecting the relationship or neglecting each other's needs.
> 
> *Most of the really penitent waywards I have seen are shocked when, after some MC, they realize that they were just as neglectful towards their BS's needs.*


The million dollar question then @bandit.45 is why didn't the BS cheat when confronted with the same neglect?


----------



## bandit.45

Truthseeker1 said:


> The million dollar question then @bandit.45 is why didn't the BS cheat when confronted with the same neglect?


Well that's the million dollar question! And if you choose correctly, you also take home this complete set of Ginsu kitchen knives! :grin2:


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## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> Well that's the million dollar question! And if you choose correctly, you also take home this complete set of Ginsu kitchen knives! :grin2:


Well since you threw in the knives I'll give it a shot - one word - CHARACTER!!!!

Now where's my million bucks and my knives?????? :grin2:


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## bandit.45

Truthseeker1 said:


> Now where's my million bucks and my knives?????? :grin2:


Huh?


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## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> Huh?


I answered the question correction..so i want my knives lol


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## bandit.45

Truthseeker1 said:


> I answered the question correction..so i want my knives lol


What knives? I don't know what you are talking about....


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## Zanne

.


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## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> What knives? I don't know what you are talking about....


what do you thinkthe answer to that question is?


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## larry.gray

bandit.45 said:


> We may not agree with their R. * We may see what B1 did as rugsweeping.* But at the end of the day, B1 and E1 compromised and came to their own agreement about what each of them needed, what they would not accept from each other, and what they would do for each other going forwards.


I'll strongly disagree with the bolded text.

What, exactly, was rugswept? EI asked here what she should share. She got the advice to answer every question B1 asked. It seems she took that advice to heart. Rugsweeping is keeping the lies and secrecy alive. She hasn't. Regsweeping is to not admit each of their faults and to refuse to fix them. They've both worked on themselves.

I think to say they rugswept is very unfair.


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## Maxo

Truthseeker1 said:


> The million dollar question then @bandit.45 is why didn't the BS cheat when confronted with the same neglect?


In addition to neglect, I think many BSs are dealing with active abuse, especially during the cheating.


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## Truthseeker1

Maxo said:


> In addition to neglect, I think many BSs are dealing with active abuse, especially during the cheating.


*Cheating IS abuse*...cheaters are abusing their spouses by cheating...


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## LongWalk

A couple of posts by Bandit, EI and Zanne make a good contrast here. 



bandit.45 said:


> I think that is why it is so tragic that so many Wayward Spouses won't do the hard work to re-stoke the fire of their love for their BSs. Fear, shame and pride: the reconciliation killers. E1 somehow reached down inside herself and found a way to bypass those roadblocks and make her way back to loving her husband.





Zanne said:


> You are absolutely setting them up for disappointment in the case of an exit affair and/or WAW situation, particularly in a long term marriage. I think EI's story is rare. Many people are gone, gone, gone way before they actually leave. Perhaps they have stayed because they don't have the means, or the guts, or they are staying for the kids, or whatever, but as far as their marriage relationship, that ship has sailed. I think the only hope would be starting a brand new relationship with your ex spouse at some point in the future after the dust has settled and both parties have worked on themselves. I imagine the odds of that happening are pretty low though.





> I had finally become detached, myself, and I no longer felt any respect or love for him





> E1 this is the only part of your story that I don't buy.
> 
> You may have perceived that you felt this way, but I believe there was always an ember of love for B1 glowing deep underneath all the ashes.
> 
> All it required was some gentle stoking by him to get it to glow, and then the two of you added the tinder together and got the fire going again.
> 
> I think that is why it is so tragic that so many Wayward Spouses won't do the hard work to re-stoke the fire of their love for their BSs. Fear, shame and pride: the reconciliation killers. E1 somehow reached down inside herself and found a way to bypass those roadblocks and make her way back to loving her husband.


Statistically Zanne is probably correct that pessimism is called for because we know that 45% of marriages end in divorce. There are also people who split up but never formally divorce.

Did some ember of love exist and was it the basis for reconciliation? There is no simple rule for all couples. There was a woman a while back whose husband was an abusive alcoholic and cheater. There is no way she could have fallen back in love with him, short of him really changing as person. Most people don't have the get up and go to really alter themselves.

Spouses who desert marriages may be going the right direction, even if cheating was the wrong start. But there are other cheaters who really giving up on themselves more than their betrayed spouse.


----------



## weltschmerz

Zanne said:


> You are absolutely setting them up for disappointment in the case of an exit affair and/or WAW situation, particularly in a long term marriage. I think EI's story is rare. Many people are gone, gone, gone way before they actually leave. Perhaps they have stayed because they don't have the means, or the guts, or they are staying for the kids, or whatever, but as far as their marriage relationship, that ship has sailed. I think the only hope would be starting a brand new relationship with your ex spouse at some point in the future after the dust has settled and both parties have worked on themselves. I imagine the odds of that happening are pretty low though.


But it does work to the WS advantage to keep the BS on the leash, just in case..... 

Roll over. Good doggie, you want a biscuit? Sorry boy, not today.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## weltschmerz

Zanne said:


> Not in every case. Sometimes people who end up being the BS are miserable in life and can't or won't do anything about it. And yet, they won't let their spouse go on with their lives either. Why did B1 stay? Was EI the only unhappy one? In a way, he held her hostage for a time. She had the "freedom" to leave, but it's not as simple as that when you have children and medical bills and family expectations, etc., and you are unraveling 20+ years of your lives together.
> 
> Sometimes there is no easy way out of these situations and so you are stuck. Meanwhile your spouse continues the crappy behavior or abuse or neglect. Nobody is keeping anybody "on the leash, just in case." Sometimes a person is done, but cannot leave for whatever reason(s).


I suppose he did hold a gun to her head. I wouldn't know, haven't read their story. 

I wonder how people are able to justify not leaving but are able to justify cheating. I mean what goes through these people's minds.

In my mind, "It's not so easy", "I can't leave for whatever reason(s)" - translates to "I don't want to leave because that'd make me appear selfish and people would vilify me, I'd like to continue the affair cos I just like being selfish, but we'll keep it under wraps. Appearance is everything". 

The more I think about it, the more I realise that humans(BS, WS, axe murderers et al.) are utterly horrible and disgusting. I wish I was an ant.


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## IIJokerII

Zanne said:


> Why did B1 stay? Was EI the only unhappy one? In a way, he held her hostage for a time. She had the "freedom" to leave, but it's not as simple as that when you have children and medical bills and family expectations, etc., and you are unraveling 20+ years of your lives together.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I can't help but find this offensive in any manner!! Medical bills are accrued when single too, yet I am sure he helped to pay for them as well. Anyone who divorces with children know they will be affected by it but after time passes they will accept that their parents can work better together while being apart. Using family expectations as an excuse to stay in a marriage or bad relationship is a cop out. I'd say family expectations is for a loving, healthy and happy environment, not a fallacious, infidelity ridden and haphazard one.
> 
> Life will also invariably change after a divorce, split separation or whatever else one might call it. It is no more traumatic then a life threating illness, accident from an unnatural occurrence or some poor choices that didn't work out but have long lasting implications. Again, that term Walk Away Wife is used as a clinical term, to give the abandonment of the marriage merit. It is a choice to quite on a loved one cause it is "Too hard" or not enough respect or gratitude. Well, we tolerate this from our employers, government, children and other family members as well. A child shows no thanks for the parents efforts, yet noticed when these tasks go undone.
> 
> What then? Cast them out as ungrateful? I think not. We accept them, love them and help them to recognize that love is not a reward, and to a degree not even a choice..... But it is indeed not for the timed.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## unbe

My personal story...

Suspected cheating from very begging of relationship...ignored

Got married

6 months in, she as looking for a way out

Cheated..left...filled...stopped it...I took her back

6 months later...cheated again

I rug swept and didnt say anything for 18 months...she up and leaves, filled again


Not many will admit this path here. I followed this because:

1) I loved the idea of her
2) I hate to be alone
3) I had very low self confidence and thought I hit the jackpot

Again, Id be willing MANY on here follow this same way of thinking.

My point, she is already on to OM2 since she left (3 months ago). Accepting her back into my life after this pattern would not only be damaging, it is borderline insane. 

The old adage, once a cheater always a cheater is 100000% accurate. Even if she/he does come back you will never be able to stop and think the next time something goes wrong, the next fight, the next whatever...will he/she stray? I dont care what you say, do, how you work on yourself. 

The second you start seeing those signs again, it will trigger your insecurities and that's enough to stay away. 

It doesn't matter if they come running back...you should be running the other way.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## Disposable

VH~
Thanks for your response. It is encouraging to hear that others can identify with my story. For many years, I felt like banging my head against the wall because I couldn't seem to get through to my H on a deeper level. I kept telling him that I did not feel loved in the relationship but he would become defensive and dismiss my complaints. He would then follow up with an apology the day, acts of love like washing my car or making coffee/breakfast. So I begin to feel like something was wrong with me and I accepted his love or lack of it as my inability to receive it/understand it/appreciate it.

About 8 years ago, at a friends insistence that I research narcissists, I came to realize he was indeed one. At the time, I tried to convince him to read up on it. He was in denial and deeply entrenched in narcissistic behavior. We continued to have meaningless arguments over sex and my cooking and everything else.

Long story short, he lost his job because of his narcissism, but was blessed with a much higher paying job. This was unfortunate because he now had the financial means to buy better clothes, cars, and younger women. He began drinking excessively and going out a lot.

Fast forward, I get a package in the mail from the OWs H with videos and details. He apparently had another life as a single man, pursuing much younger and highly attractive women.

The thing that is so odd is that now, he has decided that the other life doesn't appeal to him at all. He began to read about narcissism and he admitted to it. Our therapist agrees with the diagnosis and tells us that it is rare for narcissists to admit it.

I keep thinking he is trying to wait for the dust to settle and go back to his illicit behaviors. However, he has given me access to his phone, GPS tracker, and besides work he never goes anywhere without me. He is always sending loving notes, buying gifts, and planning trips for us

My problem is that he has lied for so long and so successfully that I find it hard to believe anything he says. Although, I am trying to make it work. My thoughts are haunted by all the relationships with women 10-20 years younger than me.

Again, I don't know what to make of it. We are 12 months out... still many bad days.

Disposable


----------



## Maxo

Zanne said:


> Not in every case. Sometimes people who end up being the BS are miserable in life and can't or won't do anything about it. And yet, they won't let their spouse go on with their lives either. Why did B1 stay? Was EI the only unhappy one? In a way, he held her hostage for a time. She had the "freedom" to leave, but it's not as simple as that when you have children and medical bills and family expectations, etc., and you are unraveling 20+ years of your lives together.
> 
> Sometimes there is no easy way out of these situations and so you are stuck. Meanwhile your spouse continues the crappy behavior or abuse or neglect. Nobody is keeping anybody "on the leash, just in case." Sometimes a person is done, but cannot leave for whatever reason(s).


This is exceedingly rare in reality , IMO. I can spek from experience: long term marriage,kids( one disabled), facing alimony and finacial consequences.
Yet , once I discovered the cheating, I was able to find my way out.
Were there consequences to me, of course. But, before resorting to cheating myself, I was willing to endure some hardship.
See, I do not think anyone is saying that by divorcing that a potential cheater will not face some hardship. But, it seems to me a person of integrity and decent amounts of resolve should be able to overcome these.
But, staying and cheating shows a lack of courage and integrity.


----------



## Dyokemm

"I do want to make the point that leaving is not as easy as it would seem."

Zanne,

I agree....it can be difficult to take the steps to end a bad M.

But not any more difficult than deciding to betray your spouse and your vows....think of all the time, energy, and effort the WS pours into planning and carrying out the A.

And it is also the most illogical craziness imaginable.

All it does is take a bad M/situation and make it exponentially worse and much more difficult to extricate yourself from because now there is so much anger and pain in the BS and the rest of the family/kids.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## bandit.45

larry.gray said:


> I'll strongly disagree with the bolded text.
> 
> What, exactly, was rugswept? EI asked here what she should share. She got the advice to answer every question B1 asked. It seems she took that advice to heart. Rugsweeping is keeping the lies and secrecy alive. She hasn't. Regsweeping is to not admit each of their faults and to refuse to fix them. They've both worked on themselves.
> 
> I think to say they rugswept is very unfair.


I guess I should go back and say "some posters" instead of "we". I recall that here were a few posters who wanted B1 to sh!tcan the marriage and got miffed when he didn't. 

I agree that no rug-sweeping went on. I threw too wide a net.


----------



## bandit.45

Maxo said:


> In addition to neglect, I think many BSs are dealing with active abuse, especially during the cheating.


I think excessive neglect IS a form of abuse...


----------



## Maxo

I think, in addition to differences in integrity,empathy,communicatoin skills, an overall lack of resolve or stick to itness,distinguishes cheaters from non cheaters.
It is no wonder to me that they are unwilling to divorce before resorting to cheating.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## Maxo

Zanne, I disagree. I can think of no affair that does not involve an active decision to betray.


----------



## ThePheonix

bandit.45 said:


> E1 this is the only part of your story that I don't buy. :wink2:
> 
> You may have perceived that you felt this way, but I believe there was always an ember of love for B1 glowing deep underneath all the ashes.


From what I've seen from others over the years, EI is the exception rather than the rule. There was enough left in her to allow rekindling and her husband took responsibility for his contribution for demise of the marriage and the loss of feeling she developed for him. If he'd not stepped up to the plate and to understand why she went down this path, they'd likely been history. Most BSs feel, I believe as evidenced by this thread, that they bear absolutely no responsibility for the loss of love and respect and the WS is just a loose cannon that lacked the moral compass to control their urges and temptations. (emphasis on loss of love and respect; not the path they took) 

I agree that most women continue to have an ember of love for the guy they've ditched for another. However, empirically I believe the vast majority of cases, it will never return to the "romantic" state necessary for a fulfilling marriage. Hence, when a woman says she loves you but is not in love with you, she typically means just that.


----------



## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> She was foggy.
> 
> E1 and B1's story was a bit different from the average tale of marital discord we see here on TAM. B1 was by his own accounts a sh!tty husband and E1, while very angry and a bit defensive when she first came on board, did eventually own her sh!t (maybe not to be degree most of us would like) and worked through her own issues.
> 
> They seem to have come to a parity with each other now and are working through a pretty successful R.
> 
> To each their own. What they are doing is working for them and I think we should support it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You've touched on one of my major problems here. The BS sometimes comes across as a violent person or a controlling person, or someone who loves to practice verbal torture on the WS.

This sort of thing does not excuse the infidelity, but it not only makes it more understandable, but certainly colors the advice I give.


----------



## sidney2718

I've abbreviated EI's post, keeping only the first paragraph.



EI said:


> I was still very _foggy_, and I was trying to justify my choices when I first started posting here. I think that's what most people tend to do when they have done something that is so egregious, in comparison to their values, they seek ways to justify it. I was extremely defensive and defiant, because I genuinely believed every word that I was saying, at that point. I had to find a way to come to terms with my actions, both during and immediately after my A, in order to live with myself.


From what you wrote above, I believe that every word the WS says in justification, was said to themselves before the affair turned physical.

Before anyone chimes in saying that *nothing* justifies an affair, let me say again that I'm not justifying an affair.

What I am saying is that one cannot give advice on reconciliation without knowing what the problems in the marriage were. And those are often the very problems the WS brings up as justification.


----------



## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> Every marriage is different. And although affairs generally follow the same pattern, in E1's case she all but told B1 that she was done with the relationship and ready to move on. E1 always struck me as a Walkaway Wife who walked into the arms of her AP. Does that excuse her having the affair? No, and I think she will admit that. She could have divorced B1...she could have separated or kicked him out or done a lot of other things. I think she was in a bad emotional state, in a bad place overall, and in that bad state she made a series of bad decisions.
> 
> B1 offered her an olive branch, agreed to work on himself, his T issues, and his poor attitude.... and she responded in turn. She owned her sh!t, apologized to their kids and family, and took responsibility for her mistakes. They beat the odds and saved their marriage by working together.
> 
> Bandit, this is one of the better posts I've ever read here!
> 
> You rock!!!
> 
> We may not agree with their R. We may see what B1 did as rugsweeping. But at the end of the day, B1 and E1 compromised and came to their own agreement about what each of them needed, what they would not accept from each other, and what they would do for each other going forwards.
> 
> And for the record, I was one of those who came down on E1 very hard, so much so that she has never let me forget it. :wink2: My goal wasn't to flog her or humiliate her, but to call her out on what I perceived was a lot of bullsh!t excuse-making there at the beginning.
> 
> But that is in the past. E1 and B1 are both very different people now, and E1 has become a valued contributor to this forum.


----------



## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> Well that's the million dollar question! And if you choose correctly, you also take home this complete set of Ginsu kitchen knives! :grin2:


Do I get the second set free if I call the right number before midnight?


----------



## IIJokerII

Zanne said:


> You are answering as a male who has presumably worked all of his life and has built a career. I was not only a SAHM for most of my marriage, but I also cared for two seriously ill children and we were drowning in medical bills.
> 
> To the point of this thread, I think a BS should be encouraged to reflect honestly about their situation and the focus should be on supporting them instead of giving them false hope. Help them to accept whatever the outcome will be. It is not their fault that their partner betrayed their vows. But I believe another disservice is done by ignoring the root of the issues and perhaps they are better off without that person in the end. I am saying this as someone who has been on both sides.


 I agree the point of this thread should be to help others self discover their own additives to what apparently was (Is) a unhealthy relationship. Most people who end up here, men and women alike, seek not to destroy completely a highly intertwined standard of living. To exemplify the title of this thread, it is indeed a myth to think anyone will come crawling back in full repentance and beg for forgiveness. 

I also agree that some people, myself included for the longest time, try to make the best out of a bad situation not realizing that the best IS the bad situation, and it can in fact get much much worse.

In answer to your speculation, yes I am a dude, but my pursuit in my career was due to my ex being given the option "Quit or be fired" year's ago (this came to light close to the big D) due to her affair causing issues at her job, personal misconduct. I had no decision in the matter nor input yet had the responsibilities of a husband still and a father with a pregnant wife( Who was still trying to escape my not so evil self to reunite with her meth headed coke ex bf from her high school days)....

I can tell you, no matter how much stress I endure being the sole provider for my children, a basic single full time parent ( Yes, I have primary custody of four children) as well as a full time job, afterschool activities and everything else I can assure you the price of freedom from the abuse, let alone " Emotional malaise or neglect" is by far and away invaluable. I suppose that Walk Away Wife from responsibilities and commitments for a new man cause, well, hey, that's how we roll in murica can get a clever acronym. But I'll leave that to the internet community to forge.... Or Dr. Phil!!


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> I think, in addition to differences in integrity,empathy,communicatoin skills, an overall lack of resolve or stick to itness,distinguishes cheaters from non cheaters.
> It is no wonder to me that they are unwilling to divorce before resorting to cheating.


I think EI explained her position on not leaving B1 in one of the first few posts on her thread.

Sure, the reasons don't always make sense to the rest of us and the difficulties don't seem too difficult to the rest of us, but it is how they seem to the WS that counts.


----------



## Maxo

ThePheonix said:


> From what I've seen from others over the years, EI is the exception rather than the rule. There was enough left in her to allow rekindling and her husband took responsibility for his contribution for demise of the marriage and the loss of feeling she developed for him. If he'd not stepped up to the plate and to understand why she went down this path, they'd likely been history. Most BSs feel, I believe as evidenced by this thread, that they bear absolutely no responsibility for the loss of love and respect and the WS is just a loose cannon that lacked the moral compass to control their urges and temptations. (emphasis on loss of love and respect; not the path they took)
> 
> I agree that most women continue to have an ember of love for the guy they've ditched for another. However, empirically I believe the vast majority of cases, it will never return to the "romantic" state necessary for a fulfilling marriage. Hence, when a woman says she loves you but is not in love with you, she typically means just that.


My observation is exactly the opposite: most BSs take way too much responsibility for allegedly causing pre-affair problems, probaly, IMO, due to the trauma inflicted by the abuser ( the cheater).

It never ceases to amaze me how some people accept the cheater' s characterization of the marriage and the BS while knowing that not only are you hearing a version from a person displaying an incredible willingness and ability to deceive over an extended period of time, but also someone with such a huge investment in justifying, at all costs, what is abusive and dishonest behavior.
Ever sonder if, just perhaps, you are not getting the truth and that the cheater' s expectations wfor the marriage were way beyond what anyone could realistically meet?


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> I think EI explained her position on not leaving B1 in one of the first few posts on her thread.
> 
> Sure, the reasons don't always make sense to the rest of us and the difficulties don't seem too difficult to the rest of us, but it is how they seem to the WS that counts.



Based on that logic, any atrocity could be justified, so long as the offender' s mindset is considered valid.


----------



## Dyokemm

Zanne said:


> I don't think anybody "decides" to betray their spouse, unless you're talking about a revenge affair. Anyway, all of that time, energy, and effort to plan and carry out the affair is a means to an end - the mythical land of rainbows and unicorns!  Seriously, it is usually a distraction. Some people are just bored, sadly. Or maybe they love the ego boost. Other people are just damaged. So many reasons... it doesn't really matter what the excuses are, of course it is craziness! Somewhere there is a reason. But if you're married to someone who is cheating out of boredom, you are probably better off without them. If there was a serious breakdown in the relationship, as in the case of EI and B1's marriage, perhaps you can both find your way to a place of healing. Regardless, I don't think people should be given false hopes of reconciliation or encouraging thoughts of the WS crawling back, crying and begging for forgiveness with snot bubbles coming out of their nose.


I agree Zanne

Those false hopes, while they may temporarily help a devastated BS to get through the initial pain and confusion, can be very detrimental in the long run as false hope gives way to increased despair or depression.


----------



## Dyokemm

"I don't think anybody "decides" to betray their spouse, unless you're talking about a revenge affair."

This is an interesting statement Zanne.

I think most people (myself included in all honesty) would disagree that there was no 'decision' to betray.

From your perspective, based on your experience/story, do you think that not acknowledging all of the choices that led the WS into the A is an attempt to maintain a better self-image?

In other words, do you deny making a choice to betray because you do not like what admitting that you chose to do it means as far as your character and personality goes?

And I hope you do not take this as an attack.

Far from it.....I am just curious about your insight on the matter.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> I agree Zanne
> 
> Those false hopes, while they may temporarily help a devastated BS to get through the initial pain and confusion, can be very detrimental in the long run as false hope gives way to increased despair or depression.


If its an LTA the BS eventually needs a reality check...if a spouse has an LTA what are you hoping for? what are you hoping to get back exactly? I do wonder how many BSs- in R - when the dust settles and they are no longer shellshocked do eventually divorce..

I think real R is rare and many WS - are not remorseful or interested in anything but their own gratification - its a character flaw...a serious one...


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> You've touched on one of my major problems here. The BS sometimes comes across as a violent person or a controlling person, or someone who loves to practice verbal torture on the WS.
> 
> This sort of thing does not excuse the infidelity, but it not only makes it more understandable, but certainly colors the advice I give.


My perception is the opposite: The BS appears to me to be severely traumatized and abusex by the cheater.
Most cheaters,OTOH,,apear to me to be remorseless abusers. Those on this type of forum, displaying remorse and accepting.responsibility are but a small fraction of real life cheaters and are dramatically different than the majority.


----------



## Maxo

Truthseeker1 said:


> If its an LTA the BS eventually needs a reality check...if a spouse has an LTA what are you hoping for? what are you hoping to get back exactly? I do wonder how many BSs- in R - when the dust settles and they are no longer shellshocked do eventually divorce..
> 
> I think real R is rare and many WS - are not remorseful or interested in anything but their own gratification - its a character flaw...a serious one...


Michelle Langley, the Women' s Infidelity author, claimed she followed up with a large number of men who stayed. At about the 2 year mark everyone regretted his decision.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Maxo said:


> Michelle Langley, the Women' s Infidelity author, claimed she followed up with a large number of men who stayed. At about the 2 year mark everyone regretted his decision.


I've never hear dof Michele Langley I will have to look her up - but if true - this does not surprise me for a great many folks who are no longer shell shocked and thinking to themselves what the hell was I hanging on to..I would add that even 2 years later the BS should feel no shame in saying enough and walking out..none...they should not feel chained by some weird sense of guilt...if they stay for kids, money, etc I get that but to stay simply because the WS was "nice" and "remorseful" for the last 2 years is not enough to continue to torment yourself...


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> I've abbreviated EI's post, keeping only the first paragraph.
> 
> 
> 
> From what you wrote above, I believe that every word the WS says in justification, was said to themselves before the affair turned physical.
> 
> Before anyone chimes in saying that *nothing* justifies an affair, let me say again that I'm not justifying an affair.
> 
> What I am saying is that one cannot give advice on reconciliation without knowing what the problems in the marriage were. And those are often the very problems the WS brings up as justification.


I agree but I think most Wss slant things to make it look as if the BS is the major source of the problems.
Yet we know, based on their cheating, the WS is untrustworthy and an abuser in his or her own right.
Think a person lacking in integrity, empathy, com unication skills and problem solving ability was a perfect spouse befor cheating?


----------



## Maxo

Truthseeker1 said:


> I've never hear dof Michele Langley I will have to look her up - but if true - this does not surprise me for a great many folks who are no longer shell shocked and thinking to themselves what the hell was I hanging on to..I would add that even 2 years later the BS should feel no shame in saying enough and walking out..none...they should not feel chained by some weird sense of guilt...if they stay for kids, money, etc I get that but to stay simply because the WS was "nice" and "remorseful" for the last 2 years is not enough to continue to torment yourself...


She had a website and was selling her 2 e_ books on line. They were interesting and her theory on wmen' cheating was pretty different. Yet, it made some sense to me.
Her second book , in particular delved into women' s unrealistic expectations and her perception that men were not responsible for their wives' failure to communicate ther desire adequately.
I think another person now operates the site,Women's Infidelity, and the books are still available.


----------



## Maxo

As I recall, Langley attributed this delayed regret to the initial fears of loss abating, the competetive juices abating and the realization that the " prize" the husbands had won was, in fact, no prize at all but, i stead, a deeply character flawed person.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Maxo said:


> As I recall, Langley attributed this delayed regret to the initial fears of loss abating, the competetive juices abating and the realization that the " prize" the husbands had won was, in fact, no prize at all but, i stead, a deeply character flawed person.


I get that....at that point the H should walk IMO..they owe the WS nothing


----------



## Maxo

Truthseeker1 said:


> I get that....at that point the H should walk IMO..they owe the WS nothing


Knee jerk reaction for some men is to " win". It wears off and they start seeing the cheaterfor what she is.
Langley claimed a decent sampling size and unanimity on this.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Maxo said:


> Knee jerk reaction for some men is to " win". It wears off and they start seeing the cheaterfor what she is.
> Langley claimed a decent sampling size and unanimity on this.


What I'd like to know is how many walk at that point...they should not contiue to torment themselves by staying with their wife..I get it if they stay in some cases for kids or money concerns but they dont owe their cheating spouse R...their cheating souse DID owe them fidelity and didn't deliver on that.....


----------



## Maxo

Truthseeker1 said:


> What I'd like to know is how many walk at that point...they should not contiue to torment themselves by staying with their wife..I get it if they stay in some cases for kids or money concerns but they dont owe their cheating spouse R...their cheating souse DID owe them fidelity and didn't deliver on that.....


She did not provide any info on that.


----------



## WasDecimated

Maxo said:


> As I recall, Langley attributed this delayed regret to the initial fears of loss abating, the competitive juices abating and the realization that the " prize" the husbands had won was, in fact, no prize at all but, i stead, a deeply character flawed person.





Maxo said:


> Michelle Langley, the Women' s Infidelity author, claimed she followed up with a large number of men who stayed. At about the 2 year mark everyone regretted his decision.





Truthseeker1 said:


> I've never heard of Michele Langley I will have to look her up - but if true - this does not surprise me for a great many folks who are no longer shell shocked and thinking to themselves what the hell was I hanging on to. I would add that even 2 years later the BS should feel no shame in saying enough and walking out…none...they should not feel chained by some weird sense of guilt...if they stay for kids, money, etc I get that but to stay simply because the WS was "nice" and "remorseful" for the last 2 years is not enough to continue to torment yourself...


I read her 2 books. The second one, for me, was very insightful. I’m not sure if it was her books that lead me to call it quits (I read so many others as well) or possibly just a timing coincidence, but l made my decision soon afterward. I did stay for over two years. There were a lot of reasons…reasons that, after about two years, no longer make any sense to me. After the shock wore off, I did see her for what she was…selfish, narcissistic, dishonest, non-remorseful, messed up woman who had no interest in repairing her damage, let alone, the damage she did to me and our family. During the first two years, I wanted desperately to win. To me, getting the life we had back again, was winning. Getting her to want me again and dump POS, was winning. Then I began to wonder what winning really was. Slowly I started to understand that the real prize was a peaceful life, without her, and if I stayed, I would deeply regret it. Divorce would be inevitable. I might as well just do it now.

Soon after the D was final, XWW joined 3 different dating sites but she was still calling me several times a week, texting almost every day and even showing up at my house. It was obvious that, in her mind, I was still her safety net…plan B. I told her to stop calling me, to only text me if it was about the kids and under no circumstances, to show up at my door ever again. 

I doubt that XWW will ever come crawling back now. Unless something catastrophic happens in her life, it’s not going to happen. She has way too much stubborn pride to even consider it. I also think she is incapable of doing any of the work required to repair the damage she caused. She is way too lazy for that. I also think there is a certain amount of shame still glowing somewhere within her. She knows that I know who she really is. Knowing this, I slammed the door on her ever coming back, and triple locked it.

Secretly, I would love for her to come back groveling and begging me to take her back…just so I could tell her to go f**k herself.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Decimated said:


> I read her 2 books. The second one, for me, was very insightful. I’m not sure if it was her books that lead me to call it quits (I read so many others as well) or possibly just a timing coincidence, but l made my decision soon afterward. I did stay for over two years. There were a lot of reasons…reasons that, after about two years, no longer make any sense to me. After the shock wore off, I did see her for what she was…selfish, narcissistic, dishonest, non-remorseful, messed up woman who had no interest in repairing her damage, let alone, the damage she did to me and our family. During the first two years, I wanted desperately to win. To me, getting the life we had back again, was winning. Getting her to want me again and dump POS, was winning. *Then I began to wonder what winning really was. *Slowly I started to understand that the real prize was a peaceful life, without her, and if I stayed, I would deeply regret it. Divorce would be inevitable. I might as well just do it now.
> 
> Soon after the D was final, XWW joined 3 different dating sites but she was still calling me several times a week, texting almost every day and even showing up at my house. It was obvious that, in her mind, I was still her safety net…plan B. I told her to stop calling me, to only text me if it was about the kids and under no circumstances, to show up at my door ever again.
> 
> I doubt that XWW will ever come crawling back now. Unless something catastrophic happens in her life, it’s not going to happen. She has way too much stubborn pride to even consider it. I also think she is incapable of doing any of the work required to repair the damage she caused. She is way too lazy for that. I also think there is a certain amount of shame still glowing somewhere within her. She knows that I know who she really is. Knowing this, I slammed the door on her ever coming back, and triple locked it.
> 
> Secretly, I would love for her to come back groveling and begging me to take her back…just so I could tell her to go f**k herself.


Great post - very insightful - the highlighted portion is a great question - what is winning exactly? And if the WS stays - what have you won exactly? I hope you have found peace and happiness....


----------



## IIJokerII

I think in any, if not every, the feeling of being in a daze is inescapable for both genders of betrayal, however long the daze lasts depends on the individual. Some come out of it swinging, blowing up there marriage while other's, mostly men it seems just by reading the forums here, want to fix what is broken, whatever those reasons may be... The one's who are successful who have repaired, not salvaged, their marriages are commendable and a litmus that true reconciliation from infidelity CAN be achieved. 

Sadly, many fail and some of these failures remain married still, citing the difficulties of detaching from a joint lifestyle. for every Walk away Wife there is a "Cheaper to keeper" out there... And the reward for someone not meeting needs, or wants or goal or dreams is betrayal and abuse on a deep emotional level... They will never come crawling back, they walk tall, silently but tall. And remember, the continuation of the marriage is now based on the "Needs" of the WS being met.... Or else...!!


----------



## bandit.45

sidney2718 said:


> Do I get the second set free if I call the right number before midnight?


Only if you live in a US state that begins with the letter Z.


----------



## GusPolinski

I can't remember the guy's name, but there was someone here a while back whose ex attempted a "crawling back with dignity" approach after her AP-turned-husband cheated and left her. The OP and his ex had been divorced for a few years at that point.

When they divorced, he essentially handed their home -- which he'd built himself -- to her and walked away (from her and the house, that is). They had two sons and he wasn't looking to remove them from their home, even though he knew it would likely mean (and it did) that the OM would be moving in.

Anyway, after they divorced, she took out a mortgage against the house (it had been fully paid for) and spent a lot of the money on OM, paid off a lot of his debt, etc. So when _he_ left, she sort of collapsed on the floor and started wailing for her ex (OPs sons told him this).

I remember laughing pretty hard when he mentioned telling her that, in order for him to even consider taking her back, she'd have to not only lose 80 lbs, but also compete w/ the other 3 women he was seeing (one of which was her ex-BFF) for his attention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

Decimated, your story is very similar to my own. I really liked her second book, as well.


----------



## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> *I remember laughing pretty hard when he mentioned telling her that, in order for him to even consider taking her back, she'd have to not only lose 80 lbs, but also compete w/ the other 3 women he was seeing (one of which was her ex-BFF) for his attention.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nice...dating the ex.BFF and the weight crack really had to sting..the only thing more perfect is if he bought the house back after she was foreclosed on..and moved the BFF while the XW had to move out...lol


----------



## Dyokemm

Maxo said:


> I agree but I think most Wss slant things to make it look as if the BS is the major source of the problems.
> Yet we know, based on their cheating, the WS is untrustworthy and an abuser in his or her own right.
> Think a person lacking in integrity, empathy, com unication skills and problem solving ability was a perfect spouse befor cheating?


I think Syd is right that the WS told themselves these things to justify the A....and that to truly R an M, these issues will have to be dealt with.

But, what I find most troubling about the WS's complaints and justifications is the complete hypocrisy and selfishness of the exercise.

After caught, the WS breaks out this laundry list of issues and problems with the BS and the M.....and, honestly, the majority of them are probably real issues.

However, the WS totally ignore the fact that the BS probably has a huge laundry list of the faults and poor behavior of the WS in the M pre-A.....and yet they didn't stab their partner in the back.

IMO, I would bet in most situations, the BS's list is probably longer, given the lack of basic respect and the general overall selfishness that allowed the WS to eventually cheat in the first place.....I doubt that disrespect and selfishness just magically appeared the day they started cheating.....more likely, those behaviors have been there for awhile beforehand.

So I would tell any recently busted WS that was harping about all the faults in their BS that led them to cheat....

Take an honest look in the mirror.....your BS probably has a list of YOUR faults and poor behaviors that is at least equally long and bad.

Stop acting like some type of marital saint who was reluctantly 'forced' into the A by your BS's poor actions.

Because, if you truly believe that BS issues 'cause' or 'justify' an A....then your BS should have probably been out f*cking around on you too.

In the end....it all boils down to the fact you did, and they didn't.....and you need to figure out why that is.

What is it inside of YOU that allowed you to betray.....and don't look for it in your BS at all. 

Whatever it is, it's not going to be found there.....they stayed loyal, despite their own laundry list of issues with you.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> I agree but I think most Wss slant things to make it look as if the BS is the major source of the problems.
> Yet we know, based on their cheating, the WS is untrustworthy and an abuser in his or her own right.
> Think a person lacking in integrity, empathy, com unication skills and problem solving ability was a perfect spouse befor cheating?


Perfect? No. Nobody is perfect. But in most cases (the rapid fire serial cheater is the exception) the WS is generally OK until things start to go bad for them.

We've had thread after thread here where the poster says something line "We'd been married for 15 years before I noticed that my spouse had changed." It is quite likely that for at least the first ten years of that marriage things WERE ok.

I've found that one has to read the OP's posts very carefully in order to get a hint about what is really wrong. And those that do this often come to different conclusions about what is going on. This shouldn't be surprising. It isn't possible to paint a complete picture of a marriage in a single post, even a long one.


----------



## sidney2718

Zanne said:


> I thought about this more and I realized that I forgot about cheating websites, etc., and so of course there is a moment of decision when someone is going to betray their partner and there is no turning back.
> 
> When I first responded to you about "deciding" to cheat, I couldn't recall a time in my mind when I actually made a decisive choice to do so. It's not that I let it happen to me or that I didn't have control over my actions. For the life of me, I just cannot remember a pivotal moment when I _chose_ to cheat on my husband. I know that sounds ridiculous.


I think this is fairly common. Some folks are so deep in the fog that it is only after being physical with their affair partner that they realize that they are cheating. Call it the fog or what you will, but I'm sure that happens.



> I don't like admitting that I've made such a choice in my life, regardless of any justifications I can give to explain it. It seems to me that it was a more complex process and the actual act of cheating became more and more egregious over time. If you must know, the decision was made when I decided to continue with a PM conversation that was getting too friendly. I found him clever and funny and it was a self-gratifying choice to continue with it. THAT was the point of no return. When it turned PA, I knew exactly what I was doing, I just didn't care. I never felt I was betraying anybody because I literally had zero feelings for my husband.


I think that your experience is not rare.



> Anyway, I retract my statement regarding making a decision to cheat. At some point, yes, a person must make that choice and they must know the repercussions, including the pain they are about to inflict on innocent parties and the loss of their own dignity, if, in fact, they care about any of that at all.


I still think that many don't think of it a CHEATING until later and some don't ever think about the repercussions because they never expect to get caught. And in fact many are never caught.


----------



## weltschmerz

Truthseeker1 said:


> Great post - very insightful - the highlighted portion is a great question - what is winning exactly? And if the WS stays - what have you won exactly? I hope you have found peace and happiness....


STDs, bastard children, sloppy seconds.. take your pick.


----------



## weltschmerz

sidney2718 said:


> Perfect? No. Nobody is perfect. But in most cases (the rapid fire serial cheater is the exception) the WS is generally OK until things start to go bad for them.


Another exception to the rule would be when an old flame comes back into their lives.


----------



## Dyokemm

Zanne said:


> I thought about this more and I realized that I forgot about cheating websites, etc., and so of course there is a moment of decision when someone is going to betray their partner and there is no turning back.
> 
> When I first responded to you about "deciding" to cheat, I couldn't recall a time in my mind when I actually made a decisive choice to do so. It's not that I let it happen to me or that I didn't have control over my actions. For the life of me, I just cannot remember a pivotal moment when I _chose_ to cheat on my husband. I know that sounds ridiculous.
> 
> I don't like admitting that I've made such a choice in my life, regardless of any justifications I can give to explain it. It seems to me that it was a more complex process and the actual act of cheating became more and more egregious over time. If you must know, the decision was made when I decided to continue with a PM conversation that was getting too friendly. I found him clever and funny and it was a self-gratifying choice to continue with it. THAT was the point of no return. When it turned PA, I knew exactly what I was doing, I just didn't care. I never felt I was betraying anybody because I literally had zero feelings for my husband.
> 
> Anyway, I retract my statement regarding making a decision to cheat. At some point, yes, a person must make that choice and they must know the repercussions, including the pain they are about to inflict on innocent parties and the loss of their own dignity, if, in fact, they care about any of that at all.


Zanne,

Thank you for your honest insight.

I understand that digging into this is not a pleasant thing for you to do.

For that, I appreciate you taking the time to share all the more.


----------



## Dyokemm

"don't ever think about the repercussions because they never expect to get caught."

Great point Syd.

Undoubtedly true for nearly all WS.


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> Perfect? No. Nobody is perfect. But in most cases (the rapid fire serial cheater is the exception) the WS is generally OK until things start to go bad for them.
> 
> We've had thread after thread here where the poster says something line "We'd been married for 15 years before I noticed that my spouse had changed." It is quite likely that for at least the first ten years of that marriage things WERE ok.
> 
> I've found that one has to read the OP's posts very carefully in order to get a hint about what is really wrong. And those that do this often come to different conclusions about what is going on. This shouldn't be surprising. It isn't possible to paint a complete picture of a marriage in a single post, even a long one.


No, again I disagree. I have noticed that in a high percentage of these situations, the betrayed, eventually, reflects back and realizes how selfish the cheater has always been. The cheating seems to open their eyes to it. Not right awat, as the traumatized BS often,initially, s urries to appease and accept blame,wrongly.
But, many seem to wake up after a time and realize what they have been putting up with in all sorts of areas for a long,long time.
To some, the discovery of cheating feels like a relief, as it validates their unconcious perceptions about the cheater and motivates them to get out,


----------



## Maxo

I cannot imagine say, EI,


sidney2718 said:


> I think this is fairly common. Some folks are so deep in the fog that it is only after being physical with their affair partner that they realize that they are cheating. Call it the fog or what you will, but I'm sure that happens.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that your experience is not rare.
> 
> 
> 
> I still think that many don't think of it a CHEATING until later and some don't ever think about the repercussions because they never expect to get caught. And in fact many are never caught.


 I cannot imagine a remorseful cheater making this claim.
No. They have their raculties. These are not diminished capacity situations.


----------



## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> I can't remember the guy's name, but there was someone here a while back whose ex attempted a "crawling back with dignity" approach after her AP-turned-husband cheated and left her. The OP and his ex had been divorced for a few years at that point.
> 
> When they divorced, he essentially handed their home -- which he'd built himself -- to her and walked away (from her and the house, that is). They had two sons and he wasn't looking to remove them from their home, even though he knew it would likely mean (and it did) that the OM would be moving in.
> 
> Anyway, after they divorced, she took out a mortgage against the house (it had been fully paid for) and spent a lot of the money on OM, paid off a lot of his debt, etc. So when _he_ left, she sort of collapsed on the floor and started wailing for her ex (OPs sons told him this).
> 
> I remember laughing pretty hard when he mentioned telling her that, in order for him to even consider taking her back, she'd have to not only lose 80 lbs, but also compete w/ the other 3 women he was seeing (one of which was her ex-BFF) for his attention.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I remember him. 

He was on the Men's Divorce forum too if I recall.


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> I remember him.
> 
> He was on the Men's Divorce forum too if I recall.


And actually (just now remembering this... LOL), wasn't one of the women that he was dating a cop that had JUST ticketed his ex for something?


----------



## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> And actually (just now remembering this... LOL), wasn't one of the women that he was dating a cop that had JUST ticketed his ex for something?


YESS!!!!:laugh:


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> And actually (just now remembering this... LOL), wasn't one of the women that he was dating a cop that had JUST ticketed his ex for something?





bandit.45 said:


> YESS!!!!:laugh:


I'd like to read this thread if either of you can remember the OP's username.


----------



## GusPolinski

3putt said:


> I'd like to read this thread if either of you can remember the OP's username.


LOL... found it...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/193634-ex-wife-wants-get-back-together-im-skeptical.html

ETA: Also found this one while searching...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...wife-says-she-misses-me-wants-meet-drink.html

Unrelated but pretty entertaining as well.


----------



## 3putt

GusPolinski said:


> LOL... found it...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/193634-ex-wife-wants-get-back-together-im-skeptical.html
> 
> ETA: Also found this one while searching...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...wife-says-she-misses-me-wants-meet-drink.html
> 
> Unrelated but pretty entertaining as well.


Thanks, GusPo!


----------



## GusPolinski

3putt said:


> Thanks, GusPo!


----------



## EI

sidney2718 said:


> I think this is fairly common. Some folks are so deep in the fog that it is only after being physical with their affair partner that they realize that they are cheating. Call it the fog or what you will, but I'm sure that happens.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that your experience is not rare.
> 
> 
> 
> I still think that many don't think of it a CHEATING until later and some don't ever think about the repercussions because they never expect to get caught. And in fact many are never caught.





Maxo said:


> I cannot imagine say, EI,
> I cannot imagine a remorseful cheater making this claim.
> No. They have their faculties. These are not diminished capacity situations.



The quote feature on TAM doesn't pick up "quotes within quotes," I'm responding on an iPad, and I'm not extremely tech savvy, so this might not make sense, but I'll try. Maxo, in your above comment, you were responding to sidney's post, and in his comment, he was responding to Zanne's comments. So, I'm not sure why you chose to use Sidney's comments and add "EI," as if I had personally suggested that I didn't realize that I was cheating until after my A had become physical. I'll speak for myself. I was not suffering from any sort of diminished capacity when I chose to have an affair. I knew before the affair became physical that it was going to become physical. I knew before I even made contact with the man who would become my AP that I was going to have an affair. I knew that I was going to have an affair before I even knew who I was going to have an affair with. I didn't just fall into it, I chose to have an affair. I chose it, and I've owned that choice, over, and over, and over. 

People often make comments on TAM as if they are facts, and then those _facts_ get repeated, and then they become an assumed part of one's story. I have been very open about the facts surrounding my A. They aren't pretty, but I'd like to keep them accurate. I've never claimed diminished capacity. I made the choice to have an A before my A ever began.


----------



## Maxo

EI said:


> The quote feature on TAM doesn't pick up "quotes within quotes," I'm responding on an iPad, and I'm not extremely tech savvy, so this might not make sense, but I'll try. Maxo, in your above comment, you were responding to sidney's post, and in his comment, he was responding to Zanne's comments. So, I'm not sure why you chose to use Sidney's comments and add "EI," as if I had personally suggested that I didn't realize that I was cheating until after my A had become physical. I'll speak for myself. I was not suffering from any sort of diminished capacity when I chose to have an affair. I knew before the affair became physical that it was going to become physical. I knew before I even made contact with the man who would become my AP that I was going to have an affair. I knew that I was going to have an affair before I even knew who I was going to have an affair with. I didn't just fall into it, I chose to have an affair. I chose it, and I've owned that choice, over, and over, and over.
> 
> People often make comments on TAM as if they are facts, and then those _facts_ get repeated, and then they become an assumed part of one's story. I have been very open about the facts surrounding my A. They aren't pretty, but I'd like to keep them accurate. I've never claimed diminished capacity. I made the choice to have an A before my A ever began.


That is what I was trying to say. Had a glich. Sorry.


----------



## Maxo

Dyokemm said:


> "don't ever think about the repercussions because they never expect to get caught."
> 
> Great point Syd.
> 
> Undoubtedly true for nearly all WS.


Arrested development: :not thinking of consequences. I believe it. Rather pathetic.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

GusPolinski said:


> I remember laughing pretty hard when he mentioned telling her that, in order for him to even consider taking her back, she'd have to not only lose 80 lbs, but also compete w/ the other 3 women he was seeing (one of which was her ex-BFF) for his attention.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Phew! I was afraid this story was going to end with the guy moving back into the house and working to pay off the debt that accumulated on behalf of the OM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> LOL... found it...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/193634-ex-wife-wants-get-back-together-im-skeptical.html
> 
> ETA: Also found this one while searching...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...wife-says-she-misses-me-wants-meet-drink.html
> 
> Unrelated but pretty entertaining as well.


Read this entry by the @TheBaxter just makes all decent people smile:

*"We met [email protected] though she prettied herself up she still looked sloppy. We sat in a corner alone and started off talking about the boys.
Then the conversation went about where I predicted: was I still mad at her? No. Had I forgiven her? No. Why not? She never asked for forgiveness. Would I be interested in dating? Heck no. Why not? I gave her three younger sexier reasons. She meant nothing to me anymore? Only as the mother of my boys.

Cue weeping and croc tears.

There was no chance for us to be a couple again? Only if she lost 80 pounds and competed with the others for my attention.

Cue righteous indignation.

Silence. Coffee. More silence.

So she has no shot then? No, maybe if you recant all the lies you spread about me and publically apologize in front of the church.

More silence. Frown. End of conversation, get up and leave in a huff.
Posted via Mobile Device"*


----------



## WasDecimated

sidney2718 said:


> Perfect? No. Nobody is perfect. But in most cases (the rapid fire serial cheater is the exception) the WS is generally OK until things start to go bad for them.
> 
> We've had thread after thread here where the poster says something line "We'd been married for 15 years before I noticed that my spouse had changed." It is quite likely that for at least the first ten years of that marriage things WERE


This is my story only I didn’t notice she had changed one day, I helplessly watched it happen over a period of months. The first 12 years of my marriage were actually pretty good. It was after the death of XWW’s parents, 6 months apart, that she rapidly changed into the new, morally corrupt version. Nobody is perfect and that included her before, but she certainly wasn’t bad and I was happy with her. She was always a touch selfish, lazy and entitled but at a level that was still acceptable. It was actually part of her charm. Afterward, those idiosyncrasies were magnified 100X, and the monster was born.



Maxo said:


> No, again I disagree. I have noticed that in a high percentage of these situations, the betrayed, eventually, reflects back and realizes how selfish the cheater has always been. The cheating seems to open their eyes to it. Not right awat, as the traumatized BS often,initially, s urries to appease and accept blame,wrongly.
> 
> But, many seem to wake up after a time and realize what they have been putting up with in all sorts of areas for a long,long time.
> To some, the discovery of cheating feels like a relief, as it validates their unconcious perceptions about the cheater and motivates them to get out,


I reflected back quite a bit during that time and after the divorce as well. I saw things completely different later. Right after D day, I did accept her blameshifting and f**ked up reasoning for her choice to cheat. I was still in panic mode and didn’t want to lose her. About the time I filed for divorce, I was starting to see things much differently. I no longer accepted her rewritten history of our marriage or her bulls**t excuses. I was clearly recalling all of her idiosyncrasies and understood how and when they evolved. 

I honestly can’t say that I was naively putting up with excess crap during the first 12 years of our marriage. The person she was, or pretended to be, was the woman I loved and married. The person she became was straight out of a nightmare. I actually can’t picture the future being better than it was before, with someone new. This is one of the reasons I haven’t put much effort to dating. Those before years really were the best years of my life and, at this point, doubt any new relationship could top that.


----------



## Maxo

Decimated said:


> This is my story only I didn’t notice she had changed one day, I helplessly watched it happen over a period of months. The first 12 years of my marriage were actually pretty good. It was after the death of XWW’s parents, 6 months apart, that she rapidly changed into the new, morally corrupt version. Nobody is perfect and that included her before, but she certainly wasn’t bad and I was happy with her. She was always a touch selfish, lazy and entitled but at a level that was still acceptable. It was actually part of her charm. Afterward, those idiosyncrasies were magnified 100X, and the monster was born.
> 
> 
> 
> I reflected back quite a bit during that time and after the divorce as well. I saw things completely different later. Right after D day, I did accept her blameshifting and f**ked up reasoning for her choice to cheat. I was still in panic mode and didn’t want to lose her. About the time I filed for divorce, I was starting to see things much differently. I no longer accepted her rewritten history of our marriage or her bulls**t excuses. I was clearly recalling all of her idiosyncrasies and understood how and when they evolved.
> 
> I honestly can’t say that I was naively putting up with excess crap during the first 12 years of our marriage. The person she was, or pretended to be, was the woman I loved and married. The person she became was straight out of a nightmare. I actually can’t picture the future being better than it was before, with someone new. This is one of the reasons I haven’t put much effort to dating. Those before years really were the best years of my life and, at this point, doubt any new relationship could top that.


You may find living alone very enjoyable. I have done so for quite some time now and I like it a lot. I hzve a nice girlfriend but still enjoy the solitude.


----------



## bandit.45

EI said:


> The quote feature on TAM doesn't pick up "quotes within quotes," I'm responding on an iPad, and I'm not extremely tech savvy, so this might not make sense, but I'll try. Maxo, in your above comment, you were responding to sidney's post, and in his comment, he was responding to Zanne's comments. So, I'm not sure why you chose to use Sidney's comments and add "EI," as if I had personally suggested that I didn't realize that I was cheating until after my A had become physical. I'll speak for myself. I was not suffering from any sort of diminished capacity when I chose to have an affair. I knew before the affair became physical that it was going to become physical. I knew before I even made contact with the man who would become my AP that I was going to have an affair. I knew that I was going to have an affair before I even knew who I was going to have an affair with. I didn't just fall into it, I chose to have an affair. I chose it, and I've owned that choice, over, and over, and over.
> 
> People often make comments on TAM as if they are facts, and then those _facts_ get repeated, and then they become an assumed part of one's story. I have been very open about the facts surrounding my A. They aren't pretty, but I'd like to keep them accurate. I've never claimed diminished capacity. I made the choice to have an A before my A ever began.



Candor and honesty, like this, is what most unrepentant waywards are incapable of.


----------



## Maxo

bandit.45 said:


> Candor and honesty, like this, is what most unrepentant waywards are incapable of.


This is true and I think it is important to bear in mind that the cheaters we see on these sites, folks like EI, are very, vary rare and fundamentally different than the type of person most of us are probably dealing with in our situations.
When you read these sites, and go onto the cheater posts, you may be reading a post by someone who is very much not the norm for cheaters. The very fact that they are there, and are , to some extent owning things or at least trying to make up for the damage shows they in no way resemble the typical cheater.
I think that may be why they are , often, met with some hostility. The folks responding to them have a difficult time not associating them with the type of person their cheater is.
I am not saying that these posting cheaters are not very messed up, but, perhaps they are distinguishable from the Cluster B's we are most often dealing with.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Candor and honesty, like this, is what most unrepentant waywards are incapable of.


I'm not proud of it, Bandit. I think you know that I would change it if I could, but I can't. But, if people don't feel like they are allowed to tell "their" truth, even on an anonymous Internet forum, like TAM, then how can they ever own it, and have the opportunity to grow and learn from it. And, if someone else reading it gleans something from it, for good, or for bad, then that's all that much better. I don't think I'm that different from anyone else, here. I think we would all like to be accepted. But, I would rather people know who I truly am, flaws and all, and then choose whether to accept me or not, then to present a "sanitized version" of myself, just to be accepted by everyone. I won't pretend to agree to something on TAM, that I don't genuinely believe, just to be considered _a good fWS._ 

So, I always speak my mind on TAM, whether it's _TAM approved doctrine_ or not. I know that I made a very selfish decision when I chose to have an affair. I made a series of selfish decisions, over and over, for 15 months. I chose that. B1 did not make me do it. But, (and here is where I tend to upset people, and that is truly not my intention) I know that I am not without character, I am not selfish, I do not lack empathy, I do not lack compassion, in fact, I am an extremely compassionate person, I do not lack communication skills and I did not rewrite my marital history. No, I was not a perfect spouse, but I was cognizant of my flaws, and I had been working very hard in therapy for over 18 months to become the type of woman who I thought _my husband_ would want to have an affair with. You see, I believe that there are some very decent human beings, who when under extreme duress, are capable of doing things they never imagined themselves doing. I also believe that there are those who hold themselves in very high esteem, thinking they hold some moral high ground, and are entitled to judge others. Oftentimes, these people are not even close to having their own lives together. I try to meet people where they are, and not where I think they should be. I would so much rather try to help someone than to sit in judgement of them.


When we first learned about B1's Testosterone deficiency, he reluctantly began treatment, then abruptly stopped, I felt so defeated and hopeless. My immediate family were all dead, our finances were in shambles due to catastrophic medical bills, my closest friend was completely unavailable because her 20 year old step-son was dying of cancer, and they had gone to Texas to get treatment for him, my faith was in crises, we still had all four of our sons at home, and for a myriad of reasons, they needed their father to be a strong, present leader, and he was unable to be emotionally present at that time, and the constant needs of our handicapped son fell 99% on me. It was completely overwhelming. I needed my husband, and the more I reached out to him, the more he pulled away from me. I tried everything, I've shared all of this on TAM, eventually I just crumbled. I was in a bad situation, with only bad options to choose from. I had been one of those people who had done the right thing my whole life, even when it was a great personal sacrifice. I was the "friend" who my girlfriend's parents always wanted them to be like. But, on the inside, I had become so isolated, so lonely, so scared, and B1 was not emotionally available for me or for our children, at that time. And, he was definitely not interested in any type of intimacy. Some here say that character is what keeps the BS from cheating when marriages are in trouble. Maybe that's true for some. But, if you are neglecting, rejecting, abandoning, humiliating, and demoralizing your spouse, especially when they are crying out to you for help, begging you to step up, to be a spouse, to be a partner, to be a friend, to be a lover, to be a co-parent, and you know that you have a condition that is contributing to your inability to do so, but you refuse treatment, that also shows a lack of character. There are many ways to _abuse_ your partner. Infidelity being just one of them. 

My point is not to bash my husband, because my God, he has owned his failures, just as I have owned mine. I have never seen any man step up in the way that he has. He blows me away every single day with his strength, his goodness, his mercy, and his forgiveness. Neither of us have an acceptable excuse for the many ways in which we both failed ourselves, and then one another, but we both have reasons, and we both believe that those reasons matter. 

We did not rugsweep one single thing. We have dissected our entire relationship all the way back to 1981, when we were 16 & 17 and had just started dating. I completely own what I did. It was completely selfish. When no one else in the world was there for me, I chose to take care of myself. I was in a terrible situation with no good, immediate, or easy options. I had suffered for so long, I genuinely did not feel like I could bear to suffer alone for one more day. I had loved B1 with every ounce of my being, and I fought valiantly to reach him, and to save our marriage, but I had finally accepted that there was nothing I could ever do again to make him love me again. A lifetime of trying to do all of the right things and I felt I had nothing. It doesn't justify what I did, it simply explains how I came to be in such a vulnerable state of mind. Facts matter to some, moral absolutes matter more to others.


----------



## bandit.45

The softie romantic in me likes to believe that some couples have an inexorable destiny to meet and stay together forever, regardless of the travails and hurdles they have to get through to be together. Maybe 1% of the population... And whenever we see this we should cherish it and encourage it. 

E1, you keep on doing what you are doing. What you and B1 have is a good thing.


----------



## bandit.45

And the fact that E1 and B1 have a special needs child?.....

That elevates any marital issues to a whole different level. We shouldn't forget that. Every marriage is different and has its own unique issues and problems.


----------



## sidney2718

EI said:


> The quote feature on TAM doesn't pick up "quotes within quotes," I'm responding on an iPad, and I'm not extremely tech savvy, so this might not make sense, but I'll try. Maxo, in your above comment, you were responding to sidney's post, and in his comment, he was responding to Zanne's comments. So, I'm not sure why you chose to use Sidney's comments and add "EI," as if I had personally suggested that I didn't realize that I was cheating until after my A had become physical. I'll speak for myself. I was not suffering from any sort of diminished capacity when I chose to have an affair. I knew before the affair became physical that it was going to become physical. I knew before I even made contact with the man who would become my AP that I was going to have an affair. I knew that I was going to have an affair before I even knew who I was going to have an affair with. I didn't just fall into it, I chose to have an affair. I chose it, and I've owned that choice, over, and over, and over.
> 
> People often make comments on TAM as if they are facts, and then those _facts_ get repeated, and then they become an assumed part of one's story. I have been very open about the facts surrounding my A. They aren't pretty, but I'd like to keep them accurate. I've never claimed diminished capacity. I made the choice to have an A before my A ever began.


Thank you for responding. I was going to, but since it involved quotes within quotes (as you say) I decided to skip it.

My point was about SOME WS's are so much in the fog that they don't realize how serious what they are doing is until the affair becomes physical.

I certainly did not mean that that applies to everyone and certainly not to you.


----------



## sidney2718

> Originally Posted by *Dyokemm*
> "don't ever think about the repercussions because they never expect to get caught."





Maxo said:


> Arrested development: :not thinking of consequences. I believe it. Rather pathetic.


Fairly common. I went through a yellow light today and almost got slammed. I was just doing my thing and never made the conscious decision to go through the light.

(You have to be careful in New York. Somebody is always in a hurry to get somewhere---possibly home before his wife notices he's not really in the basement but is missing...  )


----------



## sidney2718

EI said:


> I'm not proud of it, Bandit. I think you know that I would change it if I could, but I can't. But, if people don't feel like they are allowed to tell "their" truth, even on an anonymous Internet forum, like TAM, then how can they ever own it, and have the opportunity to grow and learn from it. And, if someone else reading it gleans something from it, for good, or for bad, then that's all that much better. I don't think I'm that different from anyone else, here. I think we would all like to be accepted. But, I would rather people know who I truly am, flaws and all, and then choose whether to accept me or not, then to present a "sanitized version" of myself, just to be accepted by everyone. I won't pretend to agree to something on TAM, that I don't genuinely believe, just to be considered _a good fWS._
> 
> So, I always speak my mind on TAM, whether it's _TAM approved doctrine_ or not. I know that I made a very selfish decision when I chose to have an affair. I made a series of selfish decisions, over and over, for 15 months. I chose that. B1 did not make me do it. But, (and here is where I tend to upset people, and that is truly not my intention) I know that I am not without character, I am not selfish, I do not lack empathy, I do not lack compassion, in fact, I am an extremely compassionate person, I do not lack communication skills and I did not rewrite my marital history. No, I was not a perfect spouse, but I was cognizant of my flaws, and I had been working very hard in therapy for over 18 months to become the type of woman who I thought _my husband_ would want to have an affair with. You see, I believe that there are some very decent human beings, who when under extreme duress, are capable of doing things they never imagined themselves doing. I also believe that there are those who hold themselves in very high esteem, thinking they hold some moral high ground, and are entitled to judge others. Oftentimes, these people are not even close to having their own lives together. I try to meet people where they are, and not where I think they should be. I would so much rather try to help someone than to sit in judgement of them.
> 
> 
> When we first learned about B1's Testosterone deficiency, he reluctantly began treatment, then abruptly stopped, I felt so defeated and hopeless. My immediate family were all dead, our finances were in shambles due to catastrophic medical bills, my closest friend was completely unavailable because her 20 year old step-son was dying of cancer, and they had gone to Texas to get treatment for him, my faith was in crises, we still had all four of our sons at home, and for a myriad of reasons, they needed their father to be a strong, present leader, and he was unable to be emotionally present at that time, and the constant needs of our handicapped son fell 99% on me. It was completely overwhelming. I needed my husband, and the more I reached out to him, the more he pulled away from me. I tried everything, I've shared all of this on TAM, eventually I just crumbled. I was in a bad situation, with only bad options to choose from. I had been one of those people who had done the right thing my whole life, even when it was a great personal sacrifice. I was the "friend" who my girlfriend's parents always wanted them to be like. But, on the inside, I had become so isolated, so lonely, so scared, and B1 was not emotionally available for me or for our children, at that time. And, he was definitely not interested in any type of intimacy. Some here say that character is what keeps the BS from cheating when marriages are in trouble. Maybe that's true for some. But, if you are neglecting, rejecting, abandoning, humiliating, and demoralizing your spouse, especially when they are crying out to you for help, begging you to step up, to be a spouse, to be a partner, to be a friend, to be a lover, to be a co-parent, and you know that you have a condition that is contributing to your inability to do so, but you refuse treatment, that also shows a lack of character. There are many ways to _abuse_ your partner. Infidelity being just one of them.
> 
> My point is not to bash my husband, because my God, he has owned his failures, just as I have owned mine. I have never seen any man step up in the way that he has. He blows me away every single day with his strength, his goodness, his mercy, and his forgiveness. Neither of us have an acceptable excuse for the many ways in which we both failed ourselves, and then one another, but we both have reasons, and we both believe that those reasons matter.
> 
> We did not rugsweep one single thing. We have dissected our entire relationship all the way back to 1981, when we were 16 & 17 and had just started dating. I completely own what I did. It was completely selfish. When no one else in the world was there for me, I chose to take care of myself. I was in a terrible situation with no good, immediate, or easy options. I had suffered for so long, I genuinely did not feel like I could bear to suffer alone for one more day. I had loved B1 with every ounce of my being, and I fought valiantly to reach him, and to save our marriage, but I had finally accepted that there was nothing I could ever do again to make him love me again. A lifetime of trying to do all of the right things and I felt I had nothing. It doesn't justify what I did, it simply explains how I came to be in such a vulnerable state of mind. Facts matter to some, moral absolutes matter more to others.


I've known you via the net almost since you joined. You are one of the few people whom I have ever met who is able to look into a mirror and see inside yourself in an honest way.

And you write beautifully.

If you could find the time to write a novel based on your and B1's history, I think it would be a best seller.


----------



## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> And the fact that E1 and B1 have a special needs child?.....
> 
> That elevates any marital issues to a whole different level. We shouldn't forget that. Every marriage is different and has its own unique issues and problems.


You tell'em. My wife and I were lucky. My brother, not so lucky. He ended up with a special needs child.


----------



## jim123

What we can all learn is even the best of people like EI can fall. We can either be someone who keeps them down or that person who offers a hand to help them get up.

What both EI and B1 have is they are honest not only with each other but themselves.

It is an amazing story that we all can learn from.


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> Fairly common. I went through a yellow light today and almost got slammed. I was just doing my thing and never made the conscious decision to go through the light.
> 
> (You have to be careful in New York. Somebody is always in a hurry to get somewhere---possibly home before his wife notices he's not really in the basement but is missing...  )


Last I checked, entering an intersection as the light turns yellow is ok.


----------



## Maxo

bandit.45 said:


> And the fact that E1 and B1 have a special needs child?.....
> 
> That elevates any marital issues to a whole different level. We shouldn't forget that. Every marriage is different and has its own unique issues and problems.


I have a severly disabled son who I cared for with zero help while my Xw was serially cheating. I know how exhausting it is. You never get a break.
The divorce rates are astronomically high among couples with a disabled child.
My XW chose cheating as her escape I:surprise: guess. I tried everything I knew how to do to help my XW. She just would not stop cheating and getting drunk all the time.


----------



## NotEasy

Maxo said:


> Last I checked, entering an intersection as the light turns yellow is ok.


Yes, but sidney said he went through a yellow light, so I guess it was already yellow, not it just turned yellow. 

Lots of people stretch 'it just turned yellow' so far that they end up going through a light that just went red.


----------



## pappygrecko

They usually come back not crawling but to check if they stll have some emotional hold on th betrayed
affairs are not as interesting if their is no one getting betrayed on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Maxo said:


> I have a severly disabled son who I cared for with zero help while my Xw was serially cheating. I know how exhausting it is. You never get a break.
> The divorce rates are astronomically high among couples with a disabled child.
> My XW chose cheating as her escape I:surprise: guess. I tried everything I knew how to do to help my XW. She just would not stop cheating and getting drunk all the time.


I know some people will not cheat no matter what. I am one.

Looks like you might be as well.

Not saying that some seriously shytty things don't happen to us in life but I believe hardship reveals character.

Your hardship revealed yours and apparently your wife's.

When all the fluff is carved away, some find steel in their character and others find something far less durable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

NotEasy said:


> Yes, but sidney said he went through a yellow light, so I guess it was already yellow, not it just turned yellow.
> 
> Lots of people stretch 'it just turned yellow' so far that they end up going through a light that just went red.


I guess sid knows.

?


----------



## Maxo

ConanHub said:


> I know some people will not cheat no matter what. I am one.
> 
> Looks like you might be as well.
> 
> Not saying that some seriously shytty things don't happen to us in life but I believe hardship reveals character.
> 
> Your hardship revealed yours and apparently your wife's.
> 
> When all the fluff is carved away, some find steel in their character and others find something far less durable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would put my XW's abuse and neglect right up there with that described by EI. She was brutal.


----------



## Jponce06

I can only think of ironpyrite on LS. Not sure if it counts but he kicked out his wife (who at the time was taking Some sort of shots since she can't have kids) and her older boss "seduced her". Ironpyrite lets call him IP is a martial arts expert and was pissed (obviously) since he described his wife's ex boss as out of shaped and golum faced. He found messages and their EA/PA was so intense he told her "you should of just left me".
The sad part is she didn't come crawling back but had her elderly father come crawling begging him to take her back then found her a few days later at his door step begging to be taken back. He did because he felt bad for her (maybe her infertility issues they've been trying to conceive and that her elderly dad soften him up before she showed up). 
Last I heard he did take her back but all her texts checking up on him and her "I love yous" fall on deaf ears on him he hasn't updated but it feels like growing resentment for taking her back and him feeling like plan b.


----------



## bandit.45

Maxo said:


> I have a severly disabled son who I cared for with zero help while my Xw was serially cheating. I know how exhausting it is. You never get a break.
> The divorce rates are astronomically high among couples with a disabled child.
> My XW chose cheating as her escape I:surprise: guess. I tried everything I knew how to do to help my XW. She just would not stop cheating and getting drunk all the time.


Thorburn and his WW have a disabled son too, who they will have to care for for the rest of their live's. I would imagine this aggravated T's wife's awful behavior. 

Thorburn was one of those TAM saints who will never divorce his serial cheating WW due to religious and moral conviction..... 

and now his WW is disabled also, so he was rewarded by having to cater and care for both of them for the rest of his life.


----------



## Maxo

bandit.45 said:


> Thorburn and his WW have a disabled son too, who they will have to care for for the rest of their live's. I would imagine this aggravated T's wife's awful behavior.
> 
> Thorburn was one of those TAM saints who will never divorce his serial cheating WW due to religious and moral conviction.....
> 
> and now his WW is disabled also, so he was rewarded by having to cater and care for both of them for the rest of his life.


We should take care of our kids and our spouse if they become disabled. that is what we signed on for.
Unfortunately, the cheater, apparently and unbeknownst to us, was not committed to the vows we both took.
Ironic, eh? Cheaters cheats, demonstrating zero adherence to the vows, yet betrayed spouse stays committed. 
And, according to many cheaters, the betrayed, who has demonstrated unbelievable integrity by doing so, was the source of all the issues that caused the cheater to cheat.
And, the even more amazing thing to me is that some folks, despite seeing all this ( the cheating, the continued commitment from the betrayed, and, in some cases, even having observed the cheater's neglect and abuse pre- affair) still believe the cheater's tall tale of abuse and neglect.
You would love to have a bridge to sell to some of these folks.


----------



## bandit.45

Maxo said:


> We should take care of our kids and our spouse if they become disabled. that is what we signed on for.
> Unfortunately, the cheater, apparently and unbeknownst to us, was not committed to the vows we both took.
> Ironic, eh? Cheaters cheats, demonstrating zero adherence to the vows, yet betrayed spouse stays committed.
> And, according to many cheaters, the betrayed, who has demonstrated unbelievable integrity by doing so, was the source of all the issues that caused the cheater to cheat.
> And, the even more amazing thing to me is that some folks, despite seeing all this ( the cheating, the continued commitment from the betrayed, and, in some cases, even having observed the cheater's neglect and abuse pre- affair) still believe the cheater's tall tale of abuse and neglect.
> You would love to have a bridge to sell to some of these folks.


If you want to read an epic tale of woe, read these. Thorburn is the Job of TAM. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/46891-need-support.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/67156-i-am-back-gets-worse.html


----------



## nirvana

I think one goes back begging only if the love still lives, but the cheater decides to get some side action thrill. It is very possible. 
If the cheater absolutely despise and hate the spouse, the cheater will not go back.

I think overall, men are more capable of "loving" more than one woman so men are more likely to go back and beg their wives to be taken back. Women are also more likely to take cheating husbands back.

Women tend to stick on to their husbands until the love is completely reduced to zero, zip, zilch and at that point there is no going back and they have the affair. So if it breaks up, they won't and do not want to go back.


----------



## bandit.45

nirvana said:


> I think one goes back begging only if the love still lives, but the cheater decides to get some side action thrill. It is very possible.
> If the cheater absolutely despise and hate the spouse, the cheater will not go back.
> 
> I think overall, men are more capable of "loving" more than one woman so men are more likely to go back and beg their wives to be taken back. Women are also more likely to take cheating husbands back.
> 
> Women tend to stick on to their husbands until the love is completely reduced to zero, zip, zilch and at that point there is no going back and they have the affair. So if it breaks up, they won't and do not want to go back.


Succinctly put. I agree.


----------



## Maxo

nirvana said:


> I think one goes back begging only if the love still lives, but the cheater decides to get some side action thrill. It is very possible.
> If the cheater absolutely despise and hate the spouse, the cheater will not go back.
> 
> I think overall, men are more capable of "loving" more than one woman so men are more likely to go back and beg their wives to be taken back. Women are also more likely to take cheating husbands back.
> 
> Women tend to stick on to their husbands until the love is completely reduced to zero, zip, zilch and at that point there is no going back and they have the affair. So if it breaks up, they won't and do not want to go back.


 I think it is gender neutral with both genders displaying the same behaviors and motivations in equal variations.
The stereotypes re men having affairs mainly for sex and women for emotional reasons are not correct, IMO.
After a lot of reading and hearing from others, I have come to the conclusion that women's sex drives are at least the equal of men's and that men's emotional needs are at least as great as women's.
I think I have read just about as many cheating women who want to return to their marriages as I have men desiring this.


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> Last I checked, entering an intersection as the light turns yellow is ok.


I'll plead the 5th on this...


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> I guess sid knows.
> 
> ?


Sid took the 5th...


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> Sid took the 5th...


Back to Bed/Sty:nerd:


----------



## nirvana

Maxo said:


> I think it is gender neutral with both genders displaying the same behaviors and motivations in equal variations.
> The stereotypes re men having affairs mainly for sex and women for emotional reasons are not correct, IMO.
> After a lot of reading and hearing from others, I have come to the conclusion that women's sex drives are at least the equal of men's and that men's emotional needs are at least as great as women's.
> I think I have read just about as many cheating women who want to return to their marriages as I have men desiring this.



That's the politically correct response, but I believe that men and women are different and behave differently in many situations. 

The men <> women argument cannot probably be proven, other than by observation, but if we look around, we will see this in our everyday lives.

It's no problem though, just a matter of opinion.


----------



## EI

Maxo said:


> I would put my XW's abuse and neglect right up there with that described by EI. She was brutal.


I hate that. I'm so sorry. You sound like a very good man who got a raw deal. I genuinely admire your strength and perseverance.

I never abandoned or neglected my children. I never have and I never will. My children were the reason that I didn't just get a divorce before starting the A. I was planning to leave two years after my A began. That doesn't excuse what I did. I should have waited. I wish I had.


----------



## Maxo

nirvana said:


> That's the politically correct response, but I believe that men and women are different and behave differently in many situations.
> 
> The men <> women argument cannot probably be proven, other than by observation, but if we look around, we will see this in our everyday lives.
> 
> It's no problem though, just a matter of opinion.


No problem. My observations have been different.


----------



## Maxo

EI said:


> I hate that. I'm so sorry. You sound like a very good man who got a raw deal. I genuinely admire your strength and perseverance.
> 
> I never abandoned or neglected my children. I never have and I never will. My children were the reason that I didn't just get a divorce before starting the A. I was planning to leave two years after my A began. That doesn't excuse what I did. I should have waited. I wish I had.


Thanks. My XW was pretty far along on theNPD continuum. It has bit her in the ass as the kids dislike her.


----------



## Maxo

nirvana said:


> That's the politically correct response, but I believe that men and women are different and behave differently in many situations.
> 
> The men <> women argument cannot probably be proven, other than by observation, but if we look around, we will see this in our everyday lives.
> 
> It's no problem though, just a matter of opinion.


Actually, when I think about it, my characterization seems to me to be the poltically incorrect response while yours is more in line with the accepted stereotypes.
But, again, no problem.


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> Back to Bed/Sty:nerd:


There's no Bed/Sty in the midwest...


----------



## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> There's no Bed/Sty in the midwest...


I hear Brooklyn is nice, now. I grew up around NYC.


----------



## NotEasy

NotEasy said:


> Yes, but sidney said he went through a yellow light, so I guess it was already yellow, not it just turned yellow.
> 
> Lots of people stretch 'it just turned yellow' so far that they end up going through a light that just went red.


And to sort of take this thread jack back on topic, I think this warped vision is something we all have.

People seem happy to quote 'it just turned yellow', but also they accelerate through yellow/red lights. Here the justification is often 'but just one more car is OK'. They believe that people should not go through yellow lights, but what they do doesn't count because ... . And this is the same for WS, they believe betrayal is bad, but what they did doesn't count because ... . I think many of them genuinely believe their warped reality is not warped. I don't agree with them, but I think they can't see their own problem. 

Some WS see themselves accurately. EI was quick. Others take much longer. The trouble for the BS is how to get the WS to see themselves accurately, D papers, exposure etc help. No WS will genuinely come crawling back until they see what they really did and stop the self justification. 

And, being Aussie, I can't plead the 5th, so I admit I have gone through yellow lights.


----------



## nirvana

Maxo said:


> Actually, when I think about it, my characterization seems to me to be the poltically incorrect response while yours is more in line with the accepted stereotypes.
> But, again, no problem.


Usually the politically correct viewpoint is the "safe" and non-confrontationist approach.

For example, if I say "Islam means Peace", that would be a PC thing to say when we know that there is no peace among Islamic community and they seem to be in conflict everywhere.

If I say "Men earn more than women because they negotiate better among other reasons", that is not PC (but I believe to be true), but i will get shouted down and called a misogynist. 

It is always to go with the "right" thing to say and make everyone happy and like you even if untrue.

But I think you really believe in what you said, so that is good.


----------



## EI

NotEasy said:


> Some WS see themselves accurately. EI was quick. Others take much longer. The trouble for the BS is how to get the WS to see themselves accurately, D papers, exposure etc help. No WS will genuinely come crawling back until they see what they really did and stop the self justification.


Thanks for the vote of confidence, but the truth is, I didn't necessarily see things all that quickly. But, when I did, it was honest and genuine. I know that very few WS's have the luxury of a BS who is willing, or even able, to bear, what is said to be almost unbearable, and still have the strength to carry their WS through....... for lack of a better word, the _fog._ 

That is why I have often said that B1 dug deep, and loved me the most, when I was the least worthy of his love. I still don't know how he did it. Reading these stories on TAM has helped me to realize just how soul crushing infidelity is to a BS. I can say that I found it very confusing, at first, and at times, I even questioned the legitimacy of his newfound love, commitment, and desire for me. Since we were both reading and posting our story here in real time, I even found myself feeling paranoid, wondering if someone was pm'ing him on the side, telling him to build me up, just to give me hope, and then to pull the rug out from under me, to get even. I mean, how could he love me now, after my 15 month EA/PA, and why did he desire me now, after years of declining intimacy, until our marriage had become completely sexless?

I genuinely feared that it was all a cruel ruse. And, if it wasn't a ruse, if he had truly loved me all along, as he was then claiming, how could he have allowed me to suffer for so long before my A, even after he knew that his low T was a huge contributing factor in his ambivalence towards our marriage, and his growing hostility towards me? So, in the early weeks after D-Day, when we were both here, but posting on separate threads, I struggled with feelings of confusion, mixed with guilt, and shame, but also anger. The anger left me feeling very defensive and defiant when the TAMers kept insisting that I show remorse, accept 100% of the blame for my A, and to pretty much beg, grovel, plead, or whatever B1 wanted me to do. But, I did not yet feel genuine remorse for my A, and I absolutely was not feeling 100% of the blame for the decision to have the A. I wasn't yet able to separate my decision to have the A from the horrible state that our marriage was in pre-A. 

I refused to show remorse that I didn't feel, or accept blame that didn't include the acknowledgement that B1 had left me in a terrible position with only terrible options to choose from. But, there was a very vocal segment on TAM who were not interested in hearing ANYTHING about the state of our pre-A marriage. That's considered blame-shifting. Sure, I could have said all of the right words, I knew what they were, I was reading TAM for several hours a day, back then. But, deep down, I knew that my feelings were genuine, right or wrong, they were my feelings and I had to work through them honestly. It didn't matter what anyone said I _should_ or shouldn't feel. If I was ever truly going to get better, I had to work through them. If I didn't work on me, first, then what could I possibly have to offer B1. Meanwhile, B1 was working through his own complex myriad of feelings. Eventually, he created another thread, the Reconciliation thread, and we started posting on that thread together.

I can honestly say, that had B1 not become the tower of strength that he became within the first few weeks after D-Day, we wouldn't be together now. I had fallen out of love with him before my A. I had lost all my respect for him, and without respect, those "in love" feelings just cannot survive. But, seeing him hurting so deeply, began to pull at my heartstrings. I didn't really understand his hurt. Not after those last few years of such complete indifference to my suffering. But, I was beginning to see that it was real. I was also beginning to realize the depth of his love for me. We both began to feel a tremendous amount of compassion for one another. We knew that financially we were stuck together for at least one more year. So, we tried to make the best of it.... helping one another heal, the best we possibly could. We would hold each other and cry. Sometimes, we'd argue, then we'd get exhausted and lie down together, side-by-side. One of us would ask if it was okay to put an arm around the other. Now, we're touching, hugging, holding hands. It was excruciatingly painful for both of us, but at the same time, a whole new level of love began to blossom. I remember thinking that he would make his next wife (the younger, hotter wife that the TAMers promise to every BH)  a wonderful husband, and in that moment, for the first time in longer than I could remember, I felt a spark, a spark of jealousy, a spark of feeling territorial, and I thought, _he will make *me* a wonderful husband_. He is mine, and I am his. After that, the _heavy lifting_ didn't really feel that heavy, the hysterical bonding was, and still is, amazing, and loving him, all over, again, and being loved by him, became an immeasurable blessing. Because he was able to meet me exactly where I was, and not where anyone else said I should be, we were both able to heal, from the inside out, and we were both able to offer the best possible version of ourselves to one another going forward. 

B1 is my anchor in the storm, I make waves, and he keeps us grounded. It works!


----------



## bandit.45

Hellllll yeahhhhhh! Wooooooohooooooo!


----------



## NotEasy

EI said:


> Thanks for the vote of confidence, but the truth is, I didn't necessarily see things all that quickly. But, when I did, it was honest and genuine. I know that very few WS's have the luxury of a BS who is willing, or even able, to bear, what is said to be almost unbearable, and still have the strength to carry their WS through....... for lack of a better word, the _fog._
> 
> That is why I have often said that B1 dug deep, and loved me the most, when I was the least worthy of his love. I still don't know how he did it. Reading these stories on TAM has helped me to realize just how soul crushing infidelity is to a BS. I can say that I found it very confusing, at first, and at times, I even questioned the legitimacy of his newfound love, commitment, and desire for me. Since we were both reading and posting our story here in real time, I even found myself feeling paranoid, wondering if someone was pm'ing him on the side, telling him to build me up, just to give me hope, and then to pull the rug out from under me, to get even. I mean, how could he love me now, after my 15 month EA/PA, and why did he desire me now, after years of declining intimacy, until our marriage had become completely sexless?
> 
> I genuinely feared that it was all a cruel ruse. And, if it wasn't a ruse, if he had truly loved me all along, as he was then claiming, how could he have allowed me to suffer for so long before my A, even after he knew that his low T was a huge contributing factor in his ambivalence towards our marriage, and his growing hostility towards me? So, in the early weeks after D-Day, when we were both here, but posting on separate threads, I struggled with feelings of confusion, mixed with guilt, and shame, but also anger. The anger left me feeling very defensive and defiant when the TAMers kept insisting that I show remorse, accept 100% of the blame for my A, and to pretty much beg, grovel, plead, or whatever B1 wanted me to do. But, I did not yet feel genuine remorse for my A, and I absolutely was not feeling 100% of the blame for the decision to have the A. I wasn't yet able to separate my decision to have the A from the horrible state that our marriage was in pre-A.
> 
> I refused to show remorse that I didn't feel, or accept blame that didn't include the acknowledgement that B1 had left me in a terrible position with only terrible options to choose from. But, there was a very vocal segment on TAM who were not interested in hearing ANYTHING about the state of our pre-A marriage. That's considered blame-shifting. Sure, I could have said all of the right words, I knew what they were, I was reading TAM for several hours a day, back then. But, deep down, I knew that my feelings were genuine, right or wrong, they were my feelings and I had to work through them honestly. It didn't matter what anyone said I _should_ or shouldn't feel. If I was ever truly going to get better, I had to work through them. If I didn't work on me, first, then what could I possibly have to offer B1. Meanwhile, B1 was working through his own complex myriad of feelings. Eventually, he created another thread, the Reconciliation thread, and we started posting on that thread together.
> 
> I can honestly say, that had B1 not become the tower of strength that he became within the first few weeks after D-Day, we wouldn't be together now. I had fallen out of love with him before my A. I had lost all my respect for him, and without respect, those "in love" feelings just cannot survive. But, seeing him hurting so deeply, began to pull at my heartstrings. I didn't really understand his hurt. Not after those last few years of such complete indifference to my suffering. But, I was beginning to see that it was real. I was also beginning to realize the depth of his love for me. We both began to feel a tremendous amount of compassion for one another. We knew that financially we were stuck together for at least one more year. So, we tried to make the best of it.... helping one another heal, the best we possibly could. We would hold each other and cry. Sometimes, we'd argue, then we'd get exhausted and lie down together, side-by-side. One of us would ask if it was okay to put an arm around the other. Now, we're touching, hugging, holding hands. It was excruciatingly painful for both of us, but at the same time, a whole new level of love began to blossom. I remember thinking that he would make his next wife (the younger, hotter wife that the TAMers promise to every BH)  a wonderful husband, and in that moment, for the first time in longer than I could remember, I felt a spark, a spark of jealousy, a spark of feeling territorial, and I thought, _he will make *me* a wonderful husband_. He is mine, and I am his. After that, the _heavy lifting_ didn't really feel that heavy, the hysterical bonding was, and still is, amazing, and loving him, all over, again, and being loved by him, became an immeasurable blessing. Because he was able to meet me exactly where I was, and not where anyone else said I should be, we were both able to heal, from the inside out, and we were both able to offer the best possible version of ourselves to one another going forward.
> 
> B1 is my anchor in the storm, I make waves, and he keeps us grounded. It works!


OK, I mis-remembered. So, EI was quick*er*. 

Others take much longer, or never get it. I suspect, many get it but refuse to admit their faults publicly.

You saw your faults, admitted them and worked on yourself. And you were blessed by a stong spouse who did the same.


----------



## Maxo

nirvana said:


> Usually the politically correct viewpoint is the "safe" and non-confrontationist approach.
> 
> For example, if I say "Islam means Peace", that would be a PC thing to say when we know that there is no peace among Islamic community and they seem to be in conflict everywhere.
> 
> If I say "Men earn more than women because they negotiate better among other reasons", that is not PC (but I believe to be true), but i will get shouted down and called a misogynist.
> 
> It is always to go with the "right" thing to say and make everyone happy and like you even if untrue.
> 
> But I think you really believe in what you said, so that is good.


Thank you. I do believe in what I said, although I feel that what you said is the " safe thing" as it seems to me to be the view that is most widely held.
But, regardless of which of us was being politically correct, i sense we both sincerely believe our statements ( it' s just that I am right,of course0).


----------



## Maxo

NotEasy said:


> And to sort of take this thread jack back on topic, I think this warped vision is something we all have.
> 
> People seem happy to quote 'it just turned yellow', but also they accelerate through yellow/red lights. Here the justification is often 'but just one more car is OK'. They believe that people should not go through yellow lights, but what they do doesn't count because ... . And this is the same for WS, they believe betrayal is bad, but what they did doesn't count because ... . I think many of them genuinely believe their warped reality is not warped. I don't agree with them, but I think they can't see their own problem.
> 
> Some WS see themselves accurately. EI was quick. Others take much longer. The trouble for the BS is how to get the WS to see themselves accurately, D papers, exposure etc help. No WS will genuinely come crawling back until they see what they really did and stop the self justification.
> 
> And, being Aussie, I can't plead the 5th, so I admit I have gone through yellow lights.


Well, in the southern hemisphere, I thought it was mandatory to pass through the. You guys stop on green and go on red,right?


----------



## Maxo

Has your husband ever explained why ,once he was diagnosed, he refused treatment? That is perplexing, as I would think he would be anxious to regain his abilities. Fear? Shame? What?


----------



## Maxo

EI said:


> Thanks for the vote of confidence, but the truth is, I didn't necessarily see things all that quickly. But, when I did, it was honest and genuine. I know that very few WS's have the luxury of a BS who is willing, or even able, to bear, what is said to be almost unbearable, and still have the strength to carry their WS through....... for lack of a better word, the _fog._
> 
> That is why I have often said that B1 dug deep, and loved me the most, when I was the least worthy of his love. I still don't know how he did it. Reading these stories on TAM has helped me to realize just how soul crushing infidelity is to a BS. I can say that I found it very confusing, at first, and at times, I even questioned the legitimacy of his newfound love, commitment, and desire for me. Since we were both reading and posting our story here in real time, I even found myself feeling paranoid, wondering if someone was pm'ing him on the side, telling him to build me up, just to give me hope, and then to pull the rug out from under me, to get even. I mean, how could he love me now, after my 15 month EA/PA, and why did he desire me now, after years of declining intimacy, until our marriage had become completely sexless?
> 
> I genuinely feared that it was all a cruel ruse. And, if it wasn't a ruse, if he had truly loved me all along, as he was then claiming, how could he have allowed me to suffer for so long before my A, even after he knew that his low T was a huge contributing factor in his ambivalence towards our marriage, and his growing hostility towards me? So, in the early weeks after D-Day, when we were both here, but posting on separate threads, I struggled with feelings of confusion, mixed with guilt, and shame, but also anger. The anger left me feeling very defensive and defiant when the TAMers kept insisting that I show remorse, accept 100% of the blame for my A, and to pretty much beg, grovel, plead, or whatever B1 wanted me to do. But, I did not yet feel genuine remorse for my A, and I absolutely was not feeling 100% of the blame for the decision to have the A. I wasn't yet able to separate my decision to have the A from the horrible state that our marriage was in pre-A.
> 
> I refused to show remorse that I didn't feel, or accept blame that didn't include the acknowledgement that B1 had left me in a terrible position with only terrible options to choose from. But, there was a very vocal segment on TAM who were not interested in hearing ANYTHING about the state of our pre-A marriage. That's considered blame-shifting. Sure, I could have said all of the right words, I knew what they were, I was reading TAM for several hours a day, back then. But, deep down, I knew that my feelings were genuine, right or wrong, they were my feelings and I had to work through them honestly. It didn't matter what anyone said I _should_ or shouldn't feel. If I was ever truly going to get better, I had to work through them. If I didn't work on me, first, then what could I possibly have to offer B1. Meanwhile, B1 was working through his own complex myriad of feelings. Eventually, he created another thread, the Reconciliation thread, and we started posting on that thread together.
> 
> I can honestly say, that had B1 not become the tower of strength that he became within the first few weeks after D-Day, we wouldn't be together now. I had fallen out of love with him before my A. I had lost all my respect for him, and without respect, those "in love" feelings just cannot survive. But, seeing him hurting so deeply, began to pull at my heartstrings. I didn't really understand his hurt. Not after those last few years of such complete indifference to my suffering. But, I was beginning to see that it was real. I was also beginning to realize the depth of his love for me. We both began to feel a tremendous amount of compassion for one another. We knew that financially we were stuck together for at least one more year. So, we tried to make the best of it.... helping one another heal, the best we possibly could. We would hold each other and cry. Sometimes, we'd argue, then we'd get exhausted and lie down together, side-by-side. One of us would ask if it was okay to put an arm around the other. Now, we're touching, hugging, holding hands. It was excruciatingly painful for both of us, but at the same time, a whole new level of love began to blossom. I remember thinking that he would make his next wife (the younger, hotter wife that the TAMers promise to every BH)  a wonderful husband, and in that moment, for the first time in longer than I could remember, I felt a spark, a spark of jealousy, a spark of feeling territorial, and I thought, _he will make *me* a wonderful husband_. He is mine, and I am his. After that, the _heavy lifting_ didn't really feel that heavy, the hysterical bonding was, and still is, amazing, and loving him, all over, again, and being loved by him, became an immeasurable blessing. Because he was able to meet me exactly where I was, and not where anyone else said I should be, we were both able to heal, from the inside out, and we were both able to offer the best possible version of ourselves to one another going forward.
> 
> B1 is my anchor in the storm, I make waves, and he keeps us grounded. It works!


I bet many of us have equal strength as B1, but, perhaps were more pissed off, as we had not mistreated or neglected our spuses as he had. Yet, they still stabbed us in the back.
Hard to be objective on this, but, usually, I am harder on myself than is realistic, if anything.
But, I really feel I was amourous,attentive,supportive,kind,hard working,loyal etc. Most that observed us and knew us agreed and came forward with these characterizatios once the cheating and her abuse became known( I protected her for a long time,covering for her).
These supporters,to this day include her parents,siblings,neighbors and even some of her oldest friends.
So, I do not think it is necessarily a lack of strength that makes so e of us finally unwilling to tolerate this abuse. Rather, it may be anger or despair or something because we knew we were good partners,yet our spouses still abused us mercilessly,


----------



## EI

Maxo said:


> I bet many of us have equal strength as B1, but, perhaps were more pissed off, as we had not mistreated or neglected our spuses as he had. Yet, they still stabbed us in the back.
> Hard to be objective on this, but, usually, I am harder on myself than is realistic, if anything.
> But, I really feel I was amourous,attentive,supportive,kind,hard working,loyal etc. Most that observed us and knew us agreed and came forward with these characterizatios once the cheating and her abuse became known( I protected her for a long time,covering for her).
> These supporters,to this day include her parents,siblings,neighbors and even some of her oldest friends.
> So, I do not think it is necessarily a lack of strength that makes so e of us finally unwilling to tolerate this abuse. Rather, it may be anger or despair or something because we knew we were good partners,yet our spouses still abused us mercilessly,


I absolutely believe that. Obviously, there is *never* an acceptable justification for deceiving and betraying one's spouse. _But,_ (and, I hesitate to use the word "but," because it always used to get me into trouble on TAM) I think logically that a BS who knows that they have treated their WS poorly, but still wants to attempt to reconcile the marriage, understands that they will need to acknowledge their own transgressions, and not try to hold a position of owning the moral high ground over their head.

With that said, if a BS is being an attentive and loving spouse, friend, lover, and co-parent, and has not been told directly by their partner that they're unhappy, and that they want to work on the marriage, and then they learn of their WS's infidelity, then I believe they can rightfully assume that they are married to a genuinely selfish, lying, deceiving, cake-eating ***** and kick their *** to the curb. 

When I read stories about a BS saying that upon discovery of their WS's infidelity, the WS claims to have been unhappy for years, claims that they thought that the marriage was already over, claims they can't believe that their BS didn't know it, and then the BS insists that they believed that the marriage was happy, believed their WS was in love with them, you either have a hapless BS on your hands, or a completely unremorseful, without conscience liar, and possibly a serial cheater. 

If I had been a BS, and I knew that I had treated my spouse poorly, prior to their A, it would have a great bearing on my ability to forgive and attempt reconciliation. If I had treated my spouse well, and they cheated, I honestly don't believe I could reconcile. And, don't even get me started on the WS who says "I never stopped loving you during my A," because if that is how you show your love, then just keep it.

You also asked why I thought B1 had refused/delayed his treatment even after he was diagnosed with low Testosterone. That's the million dollar question. I don't even know if he honestly knows the answer to that. At the time, he said that it was expensive, the gel was messy (now, he takes injections) and that he couldn't afford to keep taking the time off from work to go to the monthly doctor's appointments. He did start treatment, but quit after only three months. To be honest, there were no significant changes during those 3 months. That was pre-A and I had to make those appointments for him and pressure him to go. 

During the A, I was no longer "badgering" him about it. At some point, on his own, I remember him saying that he had made himself a new appointment, but I didn't ask him any questions about it, I had finally become detached. I assumed that he was primarily interested in it for the other health benefits, the non-sexual health issues that it could treat like fatigue, lack of motivation, an overall state of malaise, etc. You know the saying, "Change occurs when the pain of remaining the same is greater than the pain of changing." B1 was finally ready to make a change, and so he did. This time he kept up with his treatment, and when it finally had started to work its magic, he had all of this new energy, he was invigorated, ready for life, ready for his wife, only then did he seem to realize that I was gone, and I had been gone for quite some time.


----------



## Hantei

With all my genuine respect and gratitude to other posters who's input was an enormous help to me, may I please just say that these paragraphs alone made my presence on TAM (naturally I hesitated to share my story) absolutely worthwhile. 




EI said:


> I think logically that a BS who knows that they have treated their WS poorly, but still wants to attempt to reconcile the marriage, understands that they will need to acknowledge their own transgressions, and not try to hold a position of owning the moral high ground over their head.
> 
> With that said, if a BS is being an attentive and loving spouse, friend, lover, and co-parent, and has not been told directly by their partner that they're unhappy, and that they want to work on the marriage, and then they learn of their WS's infidelity, then I believe they can rightfully assume that they are married to a genuinely selfish, lying, deceiving, cake-eating ***** and kick their *** to the curb.
> 
> When I read stories about a BS saying that upon discovery of their WS's infidelity, the WS claims to have been unhappy for years, claims that they thought that the marriage was already over, claims they can't believe that their BS didn't know it, and then the BS insists that they believed that the marriage was happy, believed their WS was in love with them, you either have a hapless BS on your hands, or a completely unremorseful, without conscience liar, and possibly a serial cheater.
> 
> If I had been a BS, and I knew that I had treated my spouse poorly, prior to their A, it would have a great bearing on my ability to forgive and attempt reconciliation. If I had treated my spouse well, and they cheated, I honestly don't believe I could reconcile. And, don't even get me started on the WS who says "I never stopped loving you during my A," because if that is how you show your love, then just keep it.
> .


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## NotEasy

Maxo said:


> Well, in the southern hemisphere, I thought it was mandatory to pass through the. You guys stop on green and go on red,right?


Yes, we stop on green and go through red; but always on the wrong side of the road.:wink2:


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## bfree

Maxo said:


> Has your husband ever explained why ,once he was diagnosed, he refused treatment? That is perplexing, as I would think he would be anxious to regain his abilities. Fear? Shame? What?


I have a very good friend that is currently on T treatments for a low T condition. I asked him that exact question. He told me that the changes because of the low T were so gradual that he just accepted that it was normal for him. Since he couldn't really remember what it was like to feel really normal he just figured that this was how he was and he wasn't going to go through any complicated medical regiments just to get a slight improvement. It wasn't until he spoke to someone who had personally dealt with and successfully treated low T that he decided to give it a try. He also said that the stigma of low T as it pertains to supposed "manhood" also held him back. That's why I say that we need to get the word out that there is treatment for low T and it makes a huge difference in quality of life. I've heard many guys say "why didn't men have to deal with this in prior generations?" My own personal belief is that all the chemicals, electronics, and processed foods are having an adverse affect on people that hasn't been seen in the past. I think that's why so many more men are suffering from low T and at much earlier ages.

Btw, my friend's wife cheated on him as well and they successfully reconciled.


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## TeddieG

bfree said:


> I have a very good friend that is currently on T treatments for a low T condition. I asked him that exact question. He told me that the changes because of the low T were so gradual that he just accepted that it was normal for him. Since he couldn't really remember what it was like to feel really normal he just figured that this was how he was and he wasn't going to go through any complicated medical regiments just to get a slight improvement. It wasn't until he spoke to someone who had personally dealt with and successfully treated low T that he decided to give it a try. He also said that the stigma of low T as it pertains to supposed "manhood" also held him back. That's why I say that we need to get the word out that there is treatment for low T and it makes a huge difference in quality of life. I've heard many guys say "why didn't men have to deal with this in prior generations?" My own personal belief is that all the chemicals, electronics, and processed foods are having an adverse affect on people that hasn't been seen in the past. I think that's why so many more men are suffering from low T and at much earlier ages.
> 
> Btw, my friend's wife cheated on him as well and they successfully reconciled.


I couldn't agree more. My h thought the solution for his low T problem was a new woman - external stimulation. But there was a great MLC forum for men, called fortysixty.org, run by a man who also frequented other MLC forums. He's no longer in charge or runs it, I think, I believe he was ousted by a partner or something, but he was definitely an advocate of bioidentical testosterone supplementation. It saved his life and saved his marriage. 

And years ago, an member of the IDF produced a book called the anti-estrogen diet. There is estrogen in bisphenol-A, the stuff that lines cans, and there are compounds in plastic bottles that have an estrogenic effect resulting in all kinds of imbalanced hormones for both men and women. I didn't know it then, but in high school I was estrogen dominant, and had pain every month (doubling over in pain), nausea, vomiting, and found out later that endometriosis and fibroid tumors had been growing inside me since I hit puberty. The solution then was the birth control pill, but the LAST thing we think of until we reach a certain age is hormone imbalance. 

And even IF my h had been diagnosed that way, he would have rejected any solution just like he rejected all the other physiological explanations of his angst and depression and behaviors. Peter Pan. Until his heart attack. And that's when he began looking seriously towards home and reconciling. He didn't make it though; he was too far in with OW and she wasn't letting go. She liked the size of his truck and his penis when she met him, and assumed the truck said something about the size of his pension check and bank account, but when the penis went, everything else was still there, and that's what she wanted anyway.


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## chillymorn

Jmo

they come crawling back only when

1) they got kicked to the curb by their ap
2) they have a lot to lose finically
3)they don't want the word about their behavior getting out to friends and family.
4) are delusional that they can still hoodwink their partner into taking them back


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## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> I hear Brooklyn is nice, now. I grew up around NYC.


Yup. And parts are getting expensive. Many areas have been "gentrified".

And there are still cheaters cheating.


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## sidney2718

NotEasy said:


> And to sort of take this thread jack back on topic, I think this warped vision is something we all have.
> 
> People seem happy to quote 'it just turned yellow', but also they accelerate through yellow/red lights. Here the justification is often 'but just one more car is OK'. They believe that people should not go through yellow lights, but what they do doesn't count because ... . And this is the same for WS, they believe betrayal is bad, but what they did doesn't count because ... . I think many of them genuinely believe their warped reality is not warped. I don't agree with them, but I think they can't see their own problem.
> 
> Some WS see themselves accurately. EI was quick. Others take much longer. The trouble for the BS is how to get the WS to see themselves accurately, D papers, exposure etc help. No WS will genuinely come crawling back until they see what they really did and stop the self justification.
> 
> And, being Aussie, I can't plead the 5th, so I admit I have gone through yellow lights.


Thanks. What I intended to emphasize is that I was in the middle of the intersection without really having looked at the traffic light except subconsciously. Then I came to and found myself in trouble.

I do think that a number of affairs start this way. The WS isn't really paying attention when all of a sudden they find themselves with half their clothes off and a major need to do the deed.


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## sidney2718

NotEasy said:


> Yes, we stop on green and go through red; but always on the wrong side of the road.:wink2:


As an official TAM contrarian, I have to point out that the problem in Oz is that you are all walking around upside down.


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## Maxo

sidney2718 said:


> Thanks. What I intended to emphasize is that I was in the middle of the intersection without really having looked at the traffic light except subconsciously. Then I came to and found myself in trouble.
> 
> I do think that a number of affairs start this way. The WS isn't really paying attention when all of a sudden they find themselves with half their clothes off and a major need to do the deed.


That is pretty farfetched,Sid.


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## TeddieG

I ran right through an intersection this morning, a big one, on the yellow light, because I travel that intersection every morning and knew precisely how long I had to get through it before the light went red. I made it. 

Made me think of @sidney2718. Funny about the Aussies walking upside down. Isn't Sidney their capital? Oh wait, no, that's Canberra.


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## NotEasy

sidney2718 said:


> Thanks. What I intended to emphasize is that I was in the middle of the intersection without really having looked at the traffic light except subconsciously. Then I came to and found myself in trouble.
> 
> I do think that a number of affairs start this way. The WS isn't really paying attention when all of a sudden they find themselves with half their clothes off and a major need to do the deed.


This is sort of what I was talking about. However I get annoyed with WS to say they didn't realise what was happening and suddenly they realised they were in bed. I expect BS get more than annoyed at these statements. It only takes seconds to drive into an intersection, it takes longer to get half naked and into bed. The only way it seems vaguely believable is with lots of alcohol / drugs / anger / temporary insanity etc is involved. Even then, you decided to drink, so you are morally responsible for what you did while drunk. 

I think it likely that the cheater knows what they are doing or have blinded themselves to their own action. Something like "no-one will know, so it doesn't matter". Then, when caught, they have to admit their mistake or come up with a justification. Many of them have already convinced themselves that they are right, so can't admit a mistake or flaw. Crawling back would require admitting fault. They find an excuse far easier than an admission. And strangely their excuses are so often manufactured from the same scriptbook.

I think "they come crawling back" is said by someone who is not a WS, they don't have the same warped reality and self-justification. They imagine themself in the WS place and realise if that was them they would come crawling back.


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## destroyd

I think the ones who come crawling back are the ones who wake up and have 'a lot' to lose. Like a seriously comfortable lifestyle. Or, the exposure of the affair would destroy their life credibility, say in a small town. Even then they try to manipulate and manage the situation to their benefit. 


I agree its unrealistic to tell a newcomer to 'blow that $hit up' and they will come crawling back. They might come back, eventually, with their claws sheathed, but they wont be crawling. That's just not how it happens in my experience.


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## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> That is pretty farfetched,Sid.


Not really. It starts by having coffee with a co-worker and creeps slowly onward. We've read about plenty of these "workplace affairs" here.


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## sidney2718

NotEasy said:


> This is sort of what I was talking about. However I get annoyed with WS to say they didn't realise what was happening and suddenly they realised they were in bed. I expect BS get more than annoyed at these statements. It only takes seconds to drive into an intersection, it takes longer to get half naked and into bed. The only way it seems vaguely believable is with lots of alcohol / drugs / anger / temporary insanity etc is involved. Even then, you decided to drink, so you are morally responsible for what you did while drunk.
> 
> I think it likely that the cheater knows what they are doing or have blinded themselves to their own action. Something like "no-one will know, so it doesn't matter". Then, when caught, they have to admit their mistake or come up with a justification. Many of them have already convinced themselves that they are right, so can't admit a mistake or flaw. Crawling back would require admitting fault. They find an excuse far easier than an admission. And strangely their excuses are so often manufactured from the same scriptbook.
> 
> I think "they come crawling back" is said by someone who is not a WS, they don't have the same warped reality and self-justification. They imagine themself in the WS place and realise if that was them they would come crawling back.


I agree with your main point. I think that by the time the affair is about to get physical, the choice has been made. But the lead-up to that point may well never be a conscious set of steps.


----------



## NotEasy

sidney2718 said:


> I agree with your main point. I think that by the time the affair is about to get physical, the choice has been made. But the lead-up to that point may well never be a conscious set of steps.


I think few ever plan to have a full blown affair. They plan to play, to enjoy the attention, the thrill of the chase. Their initial choices are conscious, but initially they are only choosing to tease and be teased, not to do the deed. Maybe there is never a conscious plan to do the deed, until at the last moment with hormones racing it is too late for conscious thought. Sort of like the drunk driver who drove their car to the bar, who decided to have another drink, who kept their car keys in their pocket, but can't remember driving home and says they didn't plan it.

Those who later plead that "I never meant it to go so far" might be speaking close to the truth. I think the actual truth is "most of the time I never meant it to go so far". And I think that makes it harder for them to come crawling back.


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## NotEasy

sidney2718 said:


> I agree with your main point. I think that by the time the affair is about to get physical, the choice has been made. But the lead-up to that point may well never be a conscious set of steps.


Re-reading this I agree more, especially with the second sentence. Up to the moment it goes physical there may never have been a conscious choice to go physical, but they have made a choice with their actions.

The BS sees the actions and assumes conscious thought behind them and sees a need for the WS to come crawling back or D.

The WS remembers no conscious thought, so discounts the action, perhaps seeing no need to come crawling back.


----------



## Maxo

NotEasy said:


> I think few ever plan to have a full blown affair. They plan to play, to enjoy the attention, the thrill of the chase. Their initial choices are conscious, but initially they are only choosing to tease and be teased, not to do the deed. Maybe there is never a conscious plan to do the deed, until at the last moment with hormones racing it is too late for conscious thought. Sort of like the drunk driver who drove their car to the bar, who decided to have another drink, who kept their car keys in their pocket, but can't remember driving home and says they didn't plan it.
> 
> Those who later plead that "I never meant it to go so far" might be speaking close to the truth. I think the actual truth is "most of the time I never meant it to go so far". And I think that makes it harder for them to come crawling back.


No, i do not buy this. Too many concious decisions. Too much subterfuge. And, they keep going back for more.
EI's story seems more typical- lots of planning over time etc.


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## EI

Maxo said:


> No, i do not buy this. Too many concious decisions. Too much subterfuge. And, they keep going back for more.
> EI's story seems more typical- lots of planning over time etc.


I agree with this. Anything other than a random, unplanned ONS, almost certainly required that a series of decisions, both large and small, were made along the way, and well before the A became physical. I don't believe that anyone _finds themselves in bed with their AP,_ oblivious to how they got there. 

I honestly don't know if my A was _typical_ or not. While I do believe that the _fog_ has the ability to influence one in ways that seem to allow a normally rational person to act in extremely irrational ways, it doesn't control our actions, it just loosens our inhibitions. As long as you're of sound mind, you know what you're doing.


----------



## bandit.45

EI said:


> I agree with this. Anything other than a random, unplanned ONS, almost certainly required that a series of decisions, both large and small, were made along the way, and well before the A became physical. I don't believe that anyone _finds themselves in bed with their AP,_ oblivious to how they got there.
> 
> I honestly don't know if my A was _typical_ or not. While I do believe that the _fog_ has the ability to influence one in ways that seem to allow a normally rational person to act in extremely irrational ways, it doesn't control our actions, it just loosens our inhibitions. As long as you're of sound mind, you know what you're doing.


I think, in your case E1, you were so thirsty for affection that you were literally like the broke down driver walking down the desert highway in105 degree weather. By the time you reach a ranch house you are ready to drink out of a horse trough. A man offered you a drink of water and you took it...

And from reading B1's accounts, it wasn't just the low T. He admitted to being a selfish prick in the marriage and he did the work needed to win E1's heart back. It was part miracle and part hard work that rebuilt that marriage.


----------



## bfree

bandit.45 said:


> I think, in your case E1, you were so thirsty for affection that you were literally like the broke down driver walking down the desert highway in105 degree weather. By the time you reach a ranch house you are ready to drink out of a horse trough. A man offered you a drink of water and you took it...
> 
> And from reading B1's accounts, it wasn't just the low T. He admitted to being a selfish prick in the marriage and he did the work needed to win E1's heart back. It was part miracle and part hard work that rebuilt that marriage.


The deist in me doesn't believe that God gets involved in the everyday lives of us humans. But a small part of me still wants to believe in miracles. I'd like to think that after all the good that @EI and @B1 did in this world that angels were looking out for them. Or maybe I'm just feeling especially hopeful today.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> I think, in your case E1, you were so thirsty for affection that you were literally like the broke down driver walking down the desert highway in105 degree weather. By the time you reach a ranch house you are ready to drink out of a horse trough. A man offered you a drink of water and you took it...
> 
> And from reading B1's accounts, it wasn't just the low T. He admitted to being a selfish prick in the marriage and he did the work needed to win E1's heart back. It was part miracle and part hard work that rebuilt that marriage.





bfree said:


> The deist in me doesn't believe that God gets involved in the everyday lives of us humans. But a small part of me still wants to believe in miracles. I'd like to think that after all the good that @EI and @B1 did in this world that angels were looking out for them. Or maybe I'm just feeling especially hopeful today.


*bandit,* I've used the "starving" analogy many times. I was starving, and B1 simply wasn't hungry. For many years, neither of us knew that he had low Testosterone. We felt, at times, that life had just kicked the **** out of both of us. Neither of us were ever able to look the other way when there was someone around us who was in need. I've always thrown myself on the front lines, trying to "fix" everyone and everything, whether they wanted fixin' or not, while B1 was content, in the background, playing the supporting role. I just don't think he ever realized just how much I relied on his quiet support. 

For many years, we made a great team, even if there was a certain lack of passion in our lives. After Mom & Dad were gone, and our children were nearly grown, (though they still remain quite needy in various ways, especially our two youngest sons) I turned my focus onto fixing "us." I had tried and failed in the past, but there were always so many other pressing things to keep me occupied, that I would tell myself "I'll get back to that later." B1 was always content for me to be busy, while he was quiet in the background. But, let me be very clear, I loved this man with every ounce of my being, and no matter how busy I was, I always had time and desire for him. I felt that he was my rock and there was no place that I'd rather be than in his arms. 

Only when there became fewer distractions to keep me occupied, did I realize just how much was missing from our marriage. It wasn't just sex, it was an entire relationship. We'd somehow, over about the last 10 years, prior, become nothing more than roommates. He was the financial provider, and I was....... everything else. I threw myself into fixing "us," working on me first, therapy, weight loss, exercise, trying to put my focus onto him, his needs, his wants, his desires. It quickly became abundantly clear; when it came to me, and our marriage, he had no wants, needs, or desires, other than just keeping the status quo. The more I tried to get closer to him, the more distance he had to put between us. He was no longer my quiet supporter in the background. He became quite the disgruntled antagonist. I tried to persevere, because I'm not a quitter, I'm a fighter, up until the point that I realize that I am fighting a battle that I cannot win. 

When he was finally diagnosed with low T, I was so happy. Finally, THIS was something concrete, something we could conquer together. But, he wasn't fighting the battle with me. He was fighting against me. It felt like I was trying to save a sinking ship, while he was pouring water in it. Our two youngest sons were floundering from a lack of leadership from their father, and from living with an exhausted, bitter mother.

B1 and I both know the how and the why I eventually took the selfish and misguided path that I took, and he has said that it eventually enabled him to come to terms with my actions, and to find both compassion and forgiveness for me. Though, it didn't make it any easier or less painful for him. Understanding how I came to do what I did, doesn't make it any less wrong. B1 didn't choose to have low Testosterone, and he didn't choose to have such an extreme lack of energy, drive, or motivation. He cannot be blamed for a deficiency that he didn't choose. But, that didn't make the effects of his T deficiency any less hurtful for me or our children. When he was diagnosed, and then quit treatment, I lost all hope. That, he can be held accountable for. What I chose to do, after I lost hope, I am accountable for. 

B1 was never an intentional selfish prick. He had seriously low levels of the hormone that makes a man, a man. Though, many conditions are completely treatable, when you're in the midst of them, you are the least able to help yourself. 

I remember going to IC and telling my therapist, "I want to have an affair with my husband." He said, "Then start working on you first." That wasn't easy, looking in the mirror, taking a hard look, inside and out. All I could think was, "Damn, this is going to take a long time and a lot of work." But, I wanted better, so I did better. 

It was a long, twisted journey that B1 and I took to get to where we are today. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I wish we would have gotten to the place we are now, any other way. But, neither of us can imagine what other series of events might have brought us together as we are now. We love each other, I know B1, and he knows me. We have seen one another at our absolute best, and at our absolute worst. Though we are both flawed, imperfect individuals, neither of us are inherently selfish people. B1 is my ROCK. He always has been, even when I couldn't see it. Maybe, even when he couldn't see it. 

*bfree,* our therapist said he thought we were a miracle. He said that, other than someone finally overcoming a lifelong addiction, or having a true spiritual awakening, he had never seen such a profound life change in a man, as he witnessed with B1. There is a huge difference in _acting_ different, and in actually _being_ different. 

I appreciate your kind words, but let's be clear, we don't get passes in life, for poor choices, because we've done some good things in our past. But, sometimes, we are given mercy. And, when that happens, we must never fail to realize and acknowledge what a beautiful gift it is.


----------



## LongWalk

One of the inspiring things about EI and B1's reconciliation story is that whatever crawling back was done was insignificant compared to the standing up and regaining self respect.

Restoring value to a relationship that has been in a bad place for a decade and then had the additional degradation of infidelity smeared on it requires a serious effort by both sides. TAM emphasizes the wayward's need to crawl to meet a betrayed spouse's needs but how can that nourish a relationship in the long term?

EI,

It's been a long time since I read your past threads. Could you refresh us, was an initial period during which you felt deserving of punishment and if there was did both of you come to approximately the same conclusion as to when that had or had to end?

People often describe the rollercoaster of recovery from infidelity. But there must be a point when both spouse get off and head for some other part of the amusement park.

p.s. I went back and read a few pages. Wow. Shaggy, Warlock, Will Kane, Moxy, Acabado and many more classic posters. You were truly brave and earnest to face up to their tough questions.

A great thread. Really one of TAM's best. 

HappyMan was there, too. Hope he beating the big C.


----------



## EI

LongWalk said:


> One of the inspiring things about EI and B1's reconciliation story is that whatever crawling back was done was insignificant compared to the standing up and regaining self respect.
> 
> Restoring value to a relationship that has been in a bad place for a decade and then had the additional degradation of infidelity smeared on it requires a serious effort by both sides. TAM emphasizes the wayward's need to crawl to meet a betrayed spouse's needs but how can that nourish a relationship in the long term?
> 
> EI,
> 
> It's been a long time since I read your past threads. Could you refresh us, was an initial period during which you felt deserving of punishment and if there was did both of you come to approximately the same conclusion as to when that had or had to end?
> 
> People often describe the rollercoaster of recovery from infidelity. But there must be a point when both spouse get off and head for some other part of the amusement park.


To be honest, I was initially very defensive. Not only was I unable to own 100% of the responsibility for my choice to cheat, I didn't want to accept any of it. I viewed myself as a long suffering martyr, who for too long had sacrificed my happiness for the good of my family. I know that sounds dramatic, and it's embarrassing to admit, but that was honestly how I felt, at the time. 

This is why I have so often stated that B1 dug deep and loved me the most when I was the least deserving of his love. I still cannot understand how he went from being so passive, and so ambivalent towards me for so many years, to becoming an absolute tower of strength upon discovering my infidelity. Common sense would indicate from his past behavior towards me, that he should have been glad to have a guilt free opportunity to get rid of me. But, his newfound strength wasn't fake or manufactured. It wasn't a controlling, domineering, punishing type of strength. It wasn't demanding or forceful. It was quiet (that's my B1) and gentle, but very firm and resolute. He was crushed beyond anything I could have ever anticipated, but he has never reverted to his former passive self. He let me know that he loved me. He immediately acknowledged that he had left me in a very difficult position with no good or easy options. But, he also let me know that he was ready for life, for happiness, for a real wife, a real partner, and a real lover, and in an eerie similarity to something I had said to him a few years before, he let me know that he was going to have that in his life _with, or without me._ I heard that loud and clear.

I began seeing an Alpha side to him that I had never before seen in all of our three decades together. But, I questioned whether it could possibly be real and lasting. I wondered where _this B1_ had been all of my life. He was so good to me, and for me, but he also needed certain things from me. He needed complete transparency, and to know every single detail of the A, from the dates and times, and even to my thoughts. As humbling as it was for me, I gently shared every detail that he asked. We were both hurting, but he was carrying both of us through the fire. All of those years, I had always felt that there was more, something deeper within B1, but that I had just not been able to get him to put his defenses down and let me in. I had been the closest person in the world to him, but even I could never quite get all the way in, until the one-two punch of D-Day and Testosterone bought him to his knees. But, as quickly as it knocked the air out of him, he stood back up and began to fight. Not necessarily for me, at first, but for himself. And, that's exactly what he needed to do. 

I cannot describe how perfectly B1 handled himself, me, us.... everything. He became everything I ever needed, and more than I could have ever imagined. He had finally become the spiritual leader of our lives. His mercy and grace towards me allowed me to begin healing from years of deeply embedded emotional wounds. Several months into our R, when I was comfortably basking in his love for me, the weight of my own transgressions hit me like a ton of bricks. It was crippling and it hurt me more than any of his past neglect had ever hurt me. I couldn't undo it, I couldn't turn back time, the "fixer" in me, who was always trying to save everyone else, couldn't save myself from my own selfish decision to betray my husband and children. 

Once again, B1 came to my rescue. He loves me, he has forgiven me, and he needed me to forgive myself. He said that he and our children needed me to be the best possible version of myself. His steadfastness, every single day, continues to assure me that we are all more than the sum of our past mistakes.There's a song by Tenth Avenue North. The chorus sings _"You are more than the choices that you've made, You are more than the sum of your past mistakes, You are more than the problems you create, You've been remade." _ Then, he reminds me that I chose to love and forgive him, too. 

So, yes, I did struggle with feelings of unworthiness and undeserving of his love. When those feelings hit, they hit me hard and it took me the better part of two years to work through them and to finally forgive myself. But, knowing that my husband, my children, and my Heavenly Father had all forgiven me, then continuing to wallow in my own self pity, would have actually been another act of selfishness. They all deserve me at my very best. B1 and I are both more than the sum of our past mistakes, so much more. He is such an amazing man who lets me know every day how much he loves, cherishes, and adores me, with both his words and actions. So, no more punishing myself. We're too busy celebrating our love and our life.


----------



## NotEasy

Maxo said:


> No, i do not buy this. Too many concious decisions. Too much subterfuge. And, they keep going back for more.
> EI's story seems more typical- lots of planning over time etc.


What is it you don't buy? 

So many cheaters say they never meant it to go so far. Maybe most / many / some of them are telling the truth, at least as they see it. Maybe for most of the time they only meant to tease. 

Of course teasing is playing with fire. I agree with any BS who sees prolonged teasing of anyone else as cheating.

I wrote "full blown affair" when I should have said ONS. If the cheater does the deed a second time then obviously that was a conscious plan.

Personally I think when cheaters say "they never meant it to go so far", they often are saying they never meant to be caught. 

Part of the issue I have with saying "they will come crawling back" is it doesn't consider the mentally of the cheater. Posts here are typically from the BS, we only guess at the cheaters thoughts. If the cheater doesn't take responsibility for their actions why should they crawl back. And it may encourage the BS to sit back and wait, when really it is time to act.

And I am not saying I agree with the cheaters thoughts. I used the drunk driver analogy not to forgive them but because they often show similar self-justification. I think both of them should pay for their mistakes.


----------



## NotEasy

@EI, should have read your brilliant post before my last post.

My fear is some BS may hear "they will come crawling back" and sit idly waiting. Obviously B1 did not do that, he did the exact opposite.

But if B1 had sat and waited for you to crawl back do you think it could have worked out for you two?


----------



## tech-novelist

sidney2718 said:


> Fairly common. I went through a yellow light today and almost got slammed. I was just doing my thing and never made the conscious decision to go through the light.
> 
> (You have to be careful in New York. Somebody is always in a hurry to get somewhere---possibly home before his wife notices he's not really in the basement but is missing...  )


Driving in New York is insane. I once knew a person who was fairly weird in other ways, but I thought that the fact that he drove to work in Manhattan every day was his biggest departure from reality.


----------



## ConanHub

I think they need to come crawling back to dignity and honor because they have given up every scrap of it or claim to it.

They need to get healthy as an individual again.

They don't necessarily need to crawl back to who they betrayed except to repent and sincerely apologize, not necessarily reconcile.

A BS is not a savior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

NotEasy said:


> And to sort of take this thread jack back on topic, I think this warped vision is something we all have.
> 
> People seem happy to quote 'it just turned yellow', but also they accelerate through yellow/red lights. Here the justification is often 'but just one more car is OK'. They believe that people should not go through yellow lights, but what they do doesn't count because ... . And this is the same for WS, they believe betrayal is bad, but what they did doesn't count because ... . I think many of them genuinely believe their warped reality is not warped. I don't agree with them, but I think they can't see their own problem.
> 
> Some WS see themselves accurately. EI was quick. Others take much longer. The trouble for the BS is how to get the WS to see themselves accurately, D papers, exposure etc help. No WS will genuinely come crawling back until they see what they really did and stop the self justification.
> 
> And, being Aussie, I can't plead the 5th, so I admit I have gone through yellow lights.


In my case, my wife complains when I stop quickly in order not to go through a light as it turns yellow. However, I'm not going to change my behavior in this situation because I know that people sometimes jump lights and don't want to get into a collision that I can avoid.


----------



## tech-novelist

EI said:


> I remember thinking that he would make his next wife (the younger, hotter wife that the TAMers promise to every BH)  a wonderful husband, and in that moment, for the first time in longer than I could remember, I felt a spark, a spark of jealousy, a spark of feeling territorial, and I thought, _he will make *me* a wonderful husband_. He is mine, and I am his. After that, the _heavy lifting_ didn't really feel that heavy, the hysterical bonding was, and still is, amazing, and loving him, all over, again, and being loved by him, became an immeasurable blessing. Because he was able to meet me exactly where I was, and not where anyone else said I should be, we were both able to heal, from the inside out, and we were both able to offer the best possible version of ourselves to one another going forward.
> 
> B1 is my anchor in the storm, I make waves, and he keeps us grounded. It works!


This is a wonderful example of the value of "pre-selection" in healing a relationship, if both parties are willing. Why should some other woman have such a wonderful man when you could have him yourself?

Congratulations to both of you!


----------



## tech-novelist

EI said:


> You also asked why I thought B1 had refused/delayed his treatment even after he was diagnosed with low Testosterone. That's the million dollar question. I don't even know if he honestly knows the answer to that. At the time, he said that it was expensive, the gel was messy (now, he takes injections) and that he couldn't afford to keep taking the time off from work to go to the monthly doctor's appointments. He did start treatment, but quit after only three months. To be honest, there were no significant changes during those 3 months. That was pre-A and I had to make those appointments for him and pressure him to go.


I don't know this from personal experience but I believe from my research that one of the effects of low T is not to care about *anything *very much. Obviously such an effect makes it hard to get motivated to undergo treatment, which is tremendously unfortunate.


----------



## tech-novelist

TeddieG said:


> I ran right through an intersection this morning, a big one, on the yellow light, because I travel that intersection every morning and knew precisely how long I had to get through it before the light went red. I made it.


I believe in most jurisdictions it is legal to enter the intersection on yellow. Red means "do not enter the intersection".


----------



## EI

NotEasy said:


> @EI, should have read your brilliant post before my last post.
> 
> My fear is some BS may hear "they will come crawling back" and sit idly waiting. Obviously B1 did not do that, he did the exact opposite.
> 
> But if B1 had sat and waited for you to crawl back do you think it could have worked out for you two?


No, I'm certain that it would not have worked out. I was already done, I had already lost those "in love" feelings, along with my respect for him before my A began. If B1 had confronted me, and then sat idly by, waiting to see when/if I would come back into the marriage, it would have made him appear very weak to me, and would have only confirmed my belief that he was already too passive. 

I would never recommend that a BS, who was even considering R, to take a passive approach. By the same token, if the BS contributed greatly to a negative pre-A marriage, they would need to demonstrate their willingness to work on their own issues. One can admit that they have some work to do, but they should never, ever do the pick me dance. It does the opposite of its intended effect. When B1 started working on improving himself, he let me know that he was going to have a good life, going forward, with or without me. I found that very desirable. Though I don't think the passive approach works, I am also not a fan of the scorched Earth approach that is recommended by many TAMers, either. I think R requires a delicate balance of both Alpha and Beta qualities from both partners.


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## Mr Blunt

> *By bandit*
> How many times on the CWI threads do you read a well-meaning poster say something to the affect that "...once the OM/OW dumps your WS, your *WS will realize they are about to lose everything and come crawling back to beg you to forgive them.*
> 
> From what I have seen, 99% of the wayward spouses who do eventually break off their affairs and come back to their BSs do so only because they got thrown under the bus by their AP, and have no other options, and even then their willingness to work on reconciliation is conditional:
> 
> 
> *My question to you all is...are we doing a disservice to the newbie BSs who come on to TAM asking for our advice when we tell them something like this?
> *
> It just seems like we are setting them up for disappointment.




Bandit, I do not doubt your statement but all I can do is giving you my account.

My wife had an affair for around 10 months then left us to live with him but came back in one day crawling and begging for forgiveness. She literally crawled among the scattered trash in the ally before she came to me. When she approached me she had fear in her eyes as with a wild animal. I allowed her back into the house because of a sequence of spiritual experiences.

She was allowed back into the house and I watched her ACTIONS for over 4 years. *Her ACTIONS (words and emotions were not enough for me) showed that she was remorseful and had turned away from her betrayal*. I was not going to monitor her and be any more desperate to have her fulfill my needs as a wife. I did do a lot of things to help her because she has good in her and she was a wounded soul. I then, after 4 year, remarried her as I had divorced her over the affair.

Did she come back to me because she was thrown under the bus by her OM?
NO, he wanted her but she left him and never looked back.

Did she come back to me because she had no better options?
*Why she came back is because she felt the full force of consequences.* I quit having hope and making efforts to save us and threw the keys of the car at her face and missed; then told her to GET OUT! Her children finally understood the betrayal and turned against her and I think that was the big one! I had full legal custody and the children wanted to be with me. I could have been a better husband but I was nowhere near being a bad husband; she had absolutely no excuse except weakness and selfishness.

*For the last 20+ years we have mostly a good relationship and we have a very good life. Our children and grandchildren have a GREAT relationship with us and that is very rewarding.*

Those are the facts of over 20 years so the newbie BSs can choose to see if any of this applies to them. My guess is that most betrayals do not turn out as good as mine but I am not convinced that I am in the 1% category; there could be more... I do not think that 99% of betrayals result in divorce or fake and terrible Rs. That is just my opinion; I could be wrong.

EI and B1 had more obstacles to overcome than I did and they have a remarkable 4 years of R! EI and B1 have both battled back over enormous pains and have proven that Mr. Infidelity is not all powerful and can be defeated.

Mr. and Mrs. John Adams have a significant difference in their betrayal than the affair of my marriage and EI’s marriage but the Adams are truly remarkable in the very high level of love they have for each other.

The Adams couple have been married for over THIRTY YEARS of marriage after they both committed betrayal and they are much stronger now in their marriage than ever before. That fact is so very powerful that it gives great hope and encouragement for many.

Bandit, my wife came crawling back and begging for forgiveness and then *proved with actions* that she was remorseful. I am sure that you are right and that some do not and if mine had not done what she did I would be living without her today.


----------



## ConanHub

As Blunt has illustrated, some do crawl back.

I think his initial reaction was good as well.

Some people really do just stab everyone they claim to love because they chose to be a shytty human being only to realize what they did and become remorseful quickly.

I haven't seen it often though.

I have certainly been surprised by the people that take them back.

To come crawling back, they had to have left. Seriously weird behavior by both BS and WS.

I will never understand which is probably a good thing!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

Mr Blunt said:


> Bandit, I do not doubt your statement but all I can do is giving you my account.
> 
> My wife had an affair for around 10 months then left us to live with him but came back in one day crawling and begging for forgiveness. She literally crawled among the scattered trash in the ally before she came to me. When she approached me she had fear in her eyes as with a wild animal. I allowed her back into the house because of a sequence of spiritual experiences.
> 
> She was allowed back into the house and I watched her ACTIONS for over 4 years. *Her ACTIONS (words and emotions were not enough for me) showed that she was remorseful and had turned away from her betrayal*. I was not going to monitor her and be any more desperate to have her fulfill my needs as a wife. I did do a lot of things to help her because she has good in her and she was a wounded soul. I then, after 4 year, remarried her as I had divorced her over the affair.
> 
> Did she come back to me because she was thrown under the bus by her OM?
> NO, he wanted her but she left him and never looked back.
> 
> Did she come back to me because she had no better options?
> *Why she came back is because she felt the full force of consequences.* I quit having hope and making efforts to save us and threw the keys of the car at her face and missed; then told her to GET OUT! Her children finally understood the betrayal and turned against her and I think that was the big one! I had full legal custody and the children wanted to be with me. I could have been a better husband but I was nowhere near being a bad husband; she had absolutely no excuse except weakness and selfishness.
> 
> *For the last 20+ years we have mostly a good relationship and we have a very good life. Our children and grandchildren have a GREAT relationship with us and that is very rewarding.*
> 
> Those are the facts of over 20 years so the newbie BSs can choose to see if any of this applies to them. My guess is that most betrayals do not turn out as good as mine but I am not convinced that I am in the 1% category; there could be more... I do not think that 99% of betrayals result in divorce or fake and terrible Rs. That is just my opinion; I could be wrong.
> 
> EI and B1 had more obstacles to overcome than I did and they have a remarkable 4 years of R! EI and B1 have both battled back over enormous pains and have proven that Mr. Infidelity is not all powerful and can be defeated.
> 
> Mr. and Mrs. John Adams have a significant difference in their betrayal than the affair of my marriage and EI’s marriage but the Adams are truly remarkable in the very high level of love they have for each other.
> 
> The Adams couple have been married for over THIRTY YEARS of marriage after they both committed betrayal and they are much stronger now in their marriage than ever before. That fact is so very powerful that it gives great hope and encouragement for many.
> 
> Bandit, my wife came crawling back and begging for forgiveness and then *proved with actions* that she was remorseful. I am sure that you are right and that some do not and if mine had not done what she did I would be living without her today.


I agree it is more than one percent. But,I do think there are a lot of sites and authors making extremely inflated claims about success rates.


----------



## Maxo

EI said:


> No, I'm certain that it would not have worked out. I was already done, I had already lost those "in love" feelings, along with my respect for him before my A began. If B1 had confronted me, and then sat idly by, waiting to see when/if I would come back into the marriage, it would have made him appear very weak to me, and would have only confirmed my belief that he was already too passive.
> 
> I would never recommend that a BS, who was even considering R, to take a passive approach. By the same token, if the BS contributed greatly to a negative pre-A marriage, they would need to demonstrate their willingness to work on their own issues. One can admit that they have some work to do, but they should never, ever do the pick me dance. It does the opposite of its intended effect. When B1 started working on improving himself, he let me know that he was going to have a good life, going forward, with or without me. I found that very desirable. Though I don't think the passive approach works, I am also not a fan of the scorched Earth approach that is recommended by many TAMers, either. I think R requires a delicate balance of both Alpha and Beta qualities from both partners.


I would go compltely passive. I was a very good husband and father. If my Xw wanted to come back, she would have to work her ass off. 
I was too damaged and traumatized to have to do the work.
It would all be on her.


----------



## Maxo

EI said:


> No, I'm certain that it would not have worked out. I was already done, I had already lost those "in love" feelings, along with my respect for him before my A began. If B1 had confronted me, and then sat idly by, waiting to see when/if I would come back into the marriage, it would have made him appear very weak to me, and would have only confirmed my belief that he was already too passive.
> 
> I would never recommend that a BS, who was even considering R, to take a passive approach. By the same token, if the BS contributed greatly to a negative pre-A marriage, they would need to demonstrate their willingness to work on their own issues. One can admit that they have some work to do, but they should never, ever do the pick me dance. It does the opposite of its intended effect. When B1 started working on improving himself, he let me know that he was going to have a good life, going forward, with or without me. I found that very desirable. Though I don't think the passive approach works, I am also not a fan of the scorched Earth approach that is recommended by many TAMers, either. I think R requires a delicate balance of both Alpha and Beta qualities from both partners.


I see a huge distiction between how B1 acted during the marrige and how I believe most of us BSs were.


----------



## EI

tech-novelist said:


> I don't know this from personal experience but I believe from my research that one of the effects of low T is not to care about *anything *very much. Obviously such an effect makes it hard to get motivated to undergo treatment, which is tremendously unfortunate.


That describes B1 exactly. He said that after he began getting his T injections, he felt as if the blinders had been removed, and that he could see clearly for the first time in his whole life. It's really very sad to think of all that he missed out on, when it was right in front of him the whole time.


----------



## Affaircare

NotEasy;15248225 [USER=40289 said:


> @EI[/USER], should have read your brilliant post before my last post.
> 
> My fear is some BS may hear "they will come crawling back" and sit idly waiting. Obviously B1 did not do that, he did the exact opposite.
> 
> But if B1 had sat and waited for you to crawl back do you think it could have worked out for you two?


 @NotEasy, 

I realize you wrote this post to @EI and that she responded, but do you mind if I respond to it also?

As most TAM regulars know, I am also a former disloyal and proud to be continuously "former"... In my instance, I had an online affair with someone and was going to get on the train to leave my Dear Hubby and go to the OM, and he drove to the station, pulled me aside and sat down and cried and said: 

_"*Please do not do this.* I don't want to go through this again and you're hurting me! I very much want you to stay and want to fix our marriage, but know this: if you do get on that train, the door will be closed. There will be no more chance to repair this and it will be completely over. Make the decision you need to make, but I'm asking you please don't do this!"_

As a disloyal, for some reason those words did reach me. In the months prior I had been spending more and more time online with the OM, and yet I didn't see my Dear Hubby--I didn't see the hurt in his eyes and I honestly didn't think he cared a bit. I thought he could care less! But that day I SAW his eyes and the hurt on his face, and I KNEW what I was doing--FULL FORCE. It was like scales fell from my eyes. 

Here's the thing though--you notice he didn't just "sit idly by" and wait for me. He got in the car and drove over to the train station. He pulled me to the side. And he asked for what he wanted and said right out loud that I could make my decision--he wasn't forcing me to stay--but at the same time, if I did choose to leave I would NOT be welcome back home and there would be no chance to ever come back either. That's the kind of man my Dear Hubby is: he will give you as long as he can for you to turn back and apologize and make things right, but once he closes that door, it is SOLIDLY CLOSED and he will not even consider opening as a possibility. it is DONE. And I've seen him do that so I knew he meant it when he said it. 

So to answer your question, @NotEasy no it would not have worked if my Dear Hubby "sat idly by" and waited for me to come crawling back to him. He needed to expose to the OM (and he did); he needed to let me know that it would hurt him but he WOULD close the door on me (and he did); he needed to let me see there was hope that he wouldn't hold it over my head forever (and he did).


----------



## brokenguy

well, ex is in complete denial and at this moment insist I am the source of the divorce because I don't trust her.
Would like to test this myth as well to be honest, because it would take a monumental epiphany for her, to even apologize, never alone admit she is wrong


----------



## Maxo

Affaircare said:


> @NotEasy,
> 
> I realize you wrote this post to @EI and that she responded, but do you mind if I respond to it also?
> 
> As most TAM regulars know, I am also a former disloyal and proud to be continuously "former"... In my instance, I had an online affair with someone and was going to get on the train to leave my Dear Hubby and go to the OM, and he drove to the station, pulled me aside and sat down and cried and said:
> 
> _"*Please do not do this.* I don't want to go through this again and you're hurting me! I very much want you to stay and want to fix our marriage, but know this: if you do get on that train, the door will be closed. There will be no more chance to repair this and it will be completely over. Make the decision you need to make, but I'm asking you please don't do this!"_
> 
> As a disloyal, for some reason those words did reach me. In the months prior I had been spending more and more time online with the OM, and yet I didn't see my Dear Hubby--I didn't see the hurt in his eyes and I honestly didn't think he cared a bit. I thought he could care less! But that day I SAW his eyes and the hurt on his face, and I KNEW what I was doing--FULL FORCE. It was like scales fell from my eyes.
> 
> Here's the thing though--you notice he didn't just "sit idly by" and wait for me. He got in the car and drove over to the train station. He pulled me to the side. And he asked for what he wanted and said right out loud that I could make my decision--he wasn't forcing me to stay--but at the same time, if I did choose to leave I would NOT be welcome back home and there would be no chance to ever come back either. That's the kind of man my Dear Hubby is: he will give you as long as he can for you to turn back and apologize and make things right, but once he closes that door, it is SOLIDLY CLOSED and he will not even consider opening as a possibility. it is DONE. And I've seen him do that so I knew he meant it when he said it.
> 
> So to answer your question, @NotEasy no it would not have worked if my Dear Hubby "sat idly by" and waited for me to come crawling back to him. He needed to expose to the OM (and he did); he needed to let me know that it would hurt him but he WOULD close the door on me (and he did); he needed to let me see there was hope that he wouldn't hold it over my head forever (and he did).


A lot of us discovered post coitus. So,I would just let her go.


----------



## TeddieG

tech-novelist said:


> I don't know this from personal experience but I believe from my research that one of the effects of low T is not to care about *anything *very much. Obviously such an effect makes it hard to get motivated to undergo treatment, which is tremendously unfortunate.


That was certainly the case with my h. I thought it was depression, and still think he had some, but since he's left and the divorce is final and we've had to untangle some ongoing issues, I still see that he doesn't care about anything and isn't any happier.


----------



## LongWalk

B1 is really the betrayed husband ideal of JDL. In crisis he could lead. He could forgive but would not accept being a cuckold. EI knew that and it was the start.

TAM's approach infidelity is one strategy. It is the best strategy for many but it is not the only one.


----------



## Maxo

Affaircare said:


> @NotEasy,
> 
> I realize you wrote this post to @EI and that she responded, but do you mind if I respond to it also?
> 
> As most TAM regulars know, I am also a former disloyal and proud to be continuously "former"... In my instance, I had an online affair with someone and was going to get on the train to leave my Dear Hubby and go to the OM, and he drove to the station, pulled me aside and sat down and cried and said:
> 
> _"*Please do not do this.* I don't want to go through this again and you're hurting me! I very much want you to stay and want to fix our marriage, but know this: if you do get on that train, the door will be closed. There will be no more chance to repair this and it will be completely over. Make the decision you need to make, but I'm asking you please don't do this!"_
> 
> As a disloyal, for some reason those words did reach me. In the months prior I had been spending more and more time online with the OM, and yet I didn't see my Dear Hubby--I didn't see the hurt in his eyes and I honestly didn't think he cared a bit. I thought he could care less! But that day I SAW his eyes and the hurt on his face, and I KNEW what I was doing--FULL FORCE. It was like scales fell from my eyes.
> 
> Here's the thing though--you notice he didn't just "sit idly by" and wait for me. He got in the car and drove over to the train station. He pulled me to the side. And he asked for what he wanted and said right out loud that I could make my decision--he wasn't forcing me to stay--but at the same time, if I did choose to leave I would NOT be welcome back home and there would be no chance to ever come back either. That's the kind of man my Dear Hubby is: he will give you as long as he can for you to turn back and apologize and make things right, but once he closes that door, it is SOLIDLY CLOSED and he will not even consider opening as a possibility. it is DONE. And I've seen him do that so I knew he meant it when he said it.
> 
> So to answer your question, @NotEasy no it would not have worked if my Dear Hubby "sat idly by" and waited for me to come crawling back to him. He needed to expose to the OM (and he did); he needed to let me know that it would hurt him but he WOULD close the door on me (and he did); he needed to let me see there was hope that he wouldn't hold it over my head forever (and he did).


My xw was alreadt well aware that cheating would close the door. No need for me
To reiterate it. I am of the belief that she was an adult and knew exactly what was at stake. Then,again, 
Ido not believe in the fog concept, having been in love myself and having experienced dopamine and endorphins,etc. Never did it cause me to betray my values a d abuse my loved ones.


----------



## Wazza

LongWalk said:


> B1 is really the betrayed husband ideal of JDL. In crisis he could lead. He could forgive but would not accept being a cuckold. EI knew that and it was the start.
> 
> TAM's approach infidelity is one strategy. It is the best strategy for many but it is not the only one.


I don't know how to judge the best strategy. I am pretty certain the TAM orthodoxy would have led to divorce for me. 

I do think that TAM has many more BS than WS, which I think distorts the information and advice given. I have a lot of respect for posters like EI and Zanne because they stick around and provide a lot of really useful information, just by sharing their perspectives.


----------



## Slow Hand

Maxo said:


> My xw was alreadt well aware that cheating would close the door. No need for me
> To reiterate it. I am of the belief that she was an adult and knew exactly what was at stake. Then,again,
> *Ido not believe in the fog concept, having been in love myself and having experienced dopamine and endorphins,etc. Never did it cause me to betray my values a d abuse my loved ones.*


I concur, it's like the cheaters that blame the alcohol for their awful choice. When I was younger, I was drunk one time and nearly got raped by a female, lol, if yo can believe that. She gave up 'cause I wouldn't get hard, I kept telling her that I had a girlfriend. :grin2:


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> B1 is really the betrayed husband ideal of JDL. In crisis he could lead. He could forgive but would not accept being a cuckold. EI knew that and it was the start.
> 
> TAM's approach infidelity is one strategy. It is the best strategy for many but it is not the only one.


I remember a post EI made describing her husband coming to her and saying he knew he had a lot to apologize for. I thought his taking responsibility in that way was inspiring. 

I am not sure why so many people on TAM only think about the pain of the BS, and not the pain that drove the WS to the affair.


----------



## jld

I think TAM focuses a lot on right and wrong, and sees them in very black and white terms. I don't think there is much room for real growth, especially for a BS, in that way of thinking.

If you look at affairs as symptoms of unmet needs, it can change your perspective very quickly. Each partner can become much more humble and understanding. Each starts to look more honestly at themselves and what they did or did not do in the relationship that weakened it. Then true rebuilding, genuine meeting of needs, or dissolution of the union, if rebuilding is not possible, can take place.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Myth: &quot;They Come Crawling Back&quot;*



jld said:


> I remember a post EI made describing her husband coming to her and saying he knew he had a lot to apologize for. I thought his taking responsibility in that way was inspiring.
> 
> I am not sure why so many people on TAM only think about the pain of the BS, and not the pain that drove the WS to the affair.


You're right. @B1's actions after d-day are inspiring. The fact that he was able to set aside his own massive amount of pain to see the pain that @EI was in speaks volumes. That's not just strength, that's almost superhuman. But as bad as his actions and inactions were pre-A he did not drive @EI to an affair. If there were ever a case to understand why and how an affair happened this one is it. But I'm pretty sure that @EI will say that her affair was still a choice. She has never shied away from her responsibilities nor has she minimized her contributions to the dysfunction of their marriage. And it is precisely the fact that neither @B1 or @EI have tried to deflect their personal blame that has allowed their reconciliation to be the massive and blessed success it has been.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Bfree*
> The fact that he was able to set aside his own massive amount of pain to see the pain that @EI was in speaks volumes. That's not just strength, that's almost superhuman.


You are right Bfree; B1 is almost superhuman. It is also almost superhuman for EI to be rejected so severely for so many years without a severe breakdown. Before anyone gets all uptight, I know that there is no excuse for betrayal. *The reality is that most would crack under such intense rejection for so long.*

I think that one of the very important things about this forum is that you can read about what brings about severe breakdowns and make your free will choices and actions to AVIOD such horrific damage. As they say; *an once of prevention is worth more than a ton of cure!*

I think that it is a fact that EI and B1 are the exception and that the vast majority of those that have such breakdowns never recover. Getting help, support, and information on what to do after betrayal is important but for *those that see the reality of betrayal before infidelity and choose to avoid the experience are far better off.* 

I cannot speak for EI and B1 but my guess is that there are going to be some residual damage even though they are so very successful.* I admire EI and B1 but I think prevention is the ultimate victory!*


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> I agree it is more than one percent. But,I do think there are a lot of sites and authors making extremely inflated claims about success rates.


Good point! The fact of the matter is that nobody really knows the success rate any more than anyone knows the infidelity rate. About all we do know (and not too well at that) is the divorce rate in married couples is around 30 percent and dropping.

The peak divorce rate seems to have been in the 1990's and was around 50%.

But even though a divorce is a legal document, it is hard getting accurate figures. Some people have been divorced three times. Does that count as three divorces or one divorce?

The other side of this is that fewer and fewer couples are marrying. Somewhat less that 50% of all couples living together are married.
And nobody really knows the "breakup rate" among unmarried couples really is.

So it is one of those numbers that might be important, if we only knew what it was.

And none of this tells us what the reconciliation rate might be. It only counts separations that actually go through to divorce.


----------



## TeddieG

jld said:


> I remember a post EI made describing her husband coming to her and saying he knew he had a lot to apologize for. I thought his taking responsibility in that way was inspiring.
> 
> I am not sure why so many people on TAM only think about the pain of the BS, and not the pain that drove the WS to the affair.


I didn't cause the pain that led to my h's affair; I'm not responsible for it. He had family-of-origin issues with a domineering mother who always believed she knew everything and everything she said was right, even if she said something completely different or opposite what she'd originally said. He lived under the constant cloud of disapproval.

My h couldn't deal with ED and heart issues and prostate cancer. None of his issues had anything to do with me. I didn't pick his mother or give him prostate cancer or cause his ED. 

My h had weak coping mechanisms going back to his adolescence, when his father died at a tender age for h. He had a host of issues that caused him problems. 

Now, do I doubt he was in pain? Absolutely not. He was scared to death of mortality and death, and a host of other things. But he wasn't proactive about doing anything to resolve it until he had a heart attack last year. But yes, he was in severe emotional and psychological pain. So that makes his affair MY fault, how, jld? One case that appears to follow your paradigm doesn't an argument for the reality of it EVERY time make. Might we compare this episode to Gridcom, for example? 

I don't know why everything has to be all or nothing. There are marriages where a WS has been unhappy and there are issues in the marriage, either that the WS doesn't bring up or doesn't seem to feel gets resolved satisfactorily. Why is an affair an acceptable response? Why not just divorce rather than cheat? 

Cheating can be thoughtless and selfish, but it can also be a very passive-aggressive way of saying "I want to hurt you and I want to hurt you BADLY." 

I gave my h ample opportunity to discuss with me, both before the affair and after he disclosed it, things he was unhappy about in our marriage or with. As he was working his way home almost a year ago, that I nothing and had done nothing that required me to seek forgiveness from him, he said his choices had nothing to do with me, and he even expressed gratitude that I had held on for so long. 

The bottom line is, call it a miracle, call it luck, random, call it what you will, there is no formula to save a marriage when a partner has cheated. There just isn't. The advice here on TAM is to expose the affair and issue consequences, but the real story here is that people have to find their way through to respond in ways that are authentic and appropriate for them. I agree that rushing to divorce a cheater feels reactive to me and I didn't do it and wouldn't necessarily advise it, and I think it is possible to step back from infidelity and try to restore a marriage or decide it can't be restored. 

When h's infidelity appeared, my promise to myself was to respond to the situation in a way that left me with the fewest regrets, and I did that. I don't blame myself or accept responsibility for his cheating. And I don't get why the "blame the BS for the cheater's choice" camp ignores the very basic fundamental premise that the only person responsible for (and responsible to do something about) feelings, personal unhappiness or unhappiness with a job or a marriage), and dealing with those feelings and strong emotions, is the person who is experiencing them.

I am a little concerned at the tendency to interpret E1's posts to suggest that it was her husband who had to be fixed for the marriage to be fixed. The betrayed spouse can only do so much, and beyond that, outcomes can be across the board. I for one will not accept that it is my job to win back my cheating husband, but you can forums all over the internet, including Christian MLC ones, who draw all kinds of betrayed spouses looking for the formula to get the cheating spouse back. 

And the reality is, there is no formula. I believe that you all here at TAM call taking back a cheating spouse without requiring him or her to do at least a modicum of SOME work on THEMselves a specific term; you would call such a relationship rugsweeping.


----------



## sidney2718

Maxo said:


> My xw was alreadt well aware that cheating would close the door. No need for me
> To reiterate it. I am of the belief that she was an adult and knew exactly what was at stake. Then,again,
> Ido not believe in the fog concept, having been in love myself and having experienced dopamine and endorphins,etc. Never did it cause me to betray my values a d abuse my loved ones.


We are all different. In college I had a number of (male) friends who could drink until they passed out or who drank and could not remember the next day what they had done.

Then there are people like me, more tight-a$$ed who simply can't relinquish control to alcohol. As a group we drink just as much, get sick just as much (back when I was younger) but never let the alcoholic fog wash over them.

I suspect that you never let the endorphin high wash over you to the point that you lost control. But there are those who do.


----------



## Divinely Favored

bandit.45 said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was not around when that thread was going, So, I was not privy to all the posts. But, as another poster mentioned, , she was foggy and, it seemed to me justifying. I guess if I had cheated, I would cut my spouse a lot of slack for past behavior, as I would view my own as equally egregious.
> 
> 
> 
> Every marriage is different. And although affairs generally follow the same pattern, in E1's case she all but told B1 that she was done with the relationship and ready to move on. E1 always struck me as a Walkaway Wife who walked into the arms of her AP. Does that excuse her having the affair? No, and I think she will admit that. She could have divorced B1...she could have separated or kicked him out or done a lot of other things. I think she was in a bad emotional state, in a bad place overall, and in that bad state she made a series of bad decisions.
> 
> B1 offered her an olive branch, agreed to work on himself, his T issues, and his poor attitude.... and she responded in turn. She owned her sh!t, apologized to their kids and family, and took responsibility for her mistakes. They beat the odds and saved their marriage by working together.
> 
> We may not agree with their R. We may see what B1 did as rugsweeping. But at the end of the day, B1 and E1 compromised and came to their own agreement about what each of them needed, what they would not accept from each other, and what they would do for each other going forwards.
> 
> And for the record, I was one of those who came down on E1 very hard, so much so that she has never let me forget it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My goal wasn't to flog her or humiliate her, but to call her out on what I perceived was a lot of bullsh!t excuse-making there at the beginning.
> 
> But that is in the past. E1 and B1 are both very different people now, and E1 has become a valued contributor to this forum.
Click to expand...

What really made me sad was the fact he had low T, which helps explain why he acted the way he did with not giving a crap. Much of his issues were medical related and out of his control so to speak. and an easy fix in the end after diagnosis. But it was too late and her resentment and affair had already been set in motion. 

I tell people all the time if there are issues with a spouse, check hormone levels FIRST. If they are off, what ever you do is like trying to put band aids on someone with an arterial bleed and getting upset because they are not doing better. Address the root cause and everything will fall in place.


----------



## NotEasy

sidney2718 said:


> We are all different. In college I had a number of (male) friends who could drink until they passed out or who drank and could not remember the next day what they had done.
> 
> Then there are people like me, more tight-a$$ed who simply can't relinquish control to alcohol. As a group we drink just as much, get sick just as much (back when I was younger) but never let the alcoholic fog wash over them.
> 
> I suspect that you never let the endorphin high wash over you to the point that you lost control. But there are those who do.


As another tight-a$$, I can't understand why people spend so much to get drunk. I think they just want an excuse so they can misbehave. Alcohol is just that socially accepted excuse. I think if they unknowingly drank non-alcoholic wine many would still behave drunk.

Many cheaters seem similar, just waiting for an excuse to misbehave. The excuse may have some merit, but it just an excuse.


----------



## NotEasy

@Affaircare, @EI, thank you both for replying, and replying so well. You both didn't start this thread or need to answer me.

I asked about your spouses actions because I think in many cases action and resolve are vital. Mr Nice Guy often has little chance of a successful R. 

And I fear saying "they will come crawling back" often encourages the BS to sit idly and wait. So TAM may do some a disservice, as the original post asked. In others it may calm them and build them up.

Of course every affair is different. Even your two stories are different. Much as I like reading of your success, I never see them as an answer for all. Some here might be argueing against following you blindly. I never said that and I doubt you would. 

Among other things action by the BS should include some self reflection, when they are strong enough and clear enough. It may help the R or the next marriage. But this action can be a long term activity. 

Short term there are more important actions such as the BS deciding what they need and clearly communicating this to the WS. Again, I think saying "they come crawling back" may encourage some BS to wait, when action is needed. So many BS seem to suffer in indecision for so long.


----------



## TBT

jld said:


> I think TAM focuses a lot on right and wrong, and sees them in very black and white terms. I don't think there is much room for real growth, especially for a BS, in that way of thinking.
> 
> If you look at affairs as symptoms of unmet needs,it can change your perspective very quickly. Each partner can become much more humble and understanding. Each starts to look more honestly at themselves and what they did or did not do in the relationship that weakened it. Then true rebuilding, genuine meeting of needs, or dissolution of the union, if rebuilding is not possible, can take place.


I get what you're saying in the 2nd paragraph,but that's something for after a decision has been made. Posters in the CWI forum come here because they're trying to make that decision. What should they look for when they can't really trust and their whole world is coming apart? How to believe? Who to believe? What to believe? When to believe? They can glean some very useful information from the collective of posters here that have been through it and had to make the same choice. Was the infidelity too egregious for them to deal with or not? Not what went on prior in the marriage but the act of betrayal itself. jmo.


----------



## manfromlamancha

jld said:


> I think TAM focuses a lot on right and wrong, and sees them in very black and white terms. I don't think there is much room for real growth, especially for a BS, in that way of thinking.
> 
> If you look at affairs as symptoms of unmet needs, it can change your perspective very quickly. Each partner can become much more humble and understanding. Each starts to look more honestly at themselves and what they did or did not do in the relationship that weakened it. Then true rebuilding, genuine meeting of needs, or dissolution of the union, if rebuilding is not possible, can take place.


JLD, this is a genuine question: have you ever done something wrong or bad be cause you thought you could get away with it and it was for personal enjoyment/gratification ? If not, then do you believe that someone else could ?


----------



## manfromlamancha

And maybe my upbringing taught me to be black and white, but there are certain things that I will not abide by.

I for one would not and could not have survived in the EI situation - I would not be able to reconcile there, low testosterone or not. B1 is a much more understanding and forgiving man than me. No matter what I did, there would always have been the option to divorce or separate before going with somebody else. And also I would not have accepted hearing anything positive about the AP - I would expect the cheating spouse to see him also as a [email protected] of lesser morals for going with a married woman. I would hate to hear that he was a good guy who went into this reluctantly and only wanted to help me and is so understanding etc (blech!).

So while we hold up the EI example as a paragon of reconciliation, it would not have been possible for me and I suspect, a number of others here.

The general TAM way of dealing with stuff is all about re-enforcing basic morals and boundaries and acting on them - thats all.

Somebody cheats - its wrong, plain and simple. The marriage could have been bad, childhood could have been rough etc but it doesn't change the fact that cheating is wrong. Being prepared to work on the marriage is fine, but it comes AFTER acknowledging that the cheating was wrong and that wrong has to be put right or the effects minimised before doing anything else. That is what TAM is about and from what I can see, is still the most effective way at achieving well-being for all.


----------



## Dycedarg

For someone to come back, a lot of things have to transpire. 

The biggest one being a realization of the truth that they are in fact in the wrong. 

This is an enormous weight for people in 1st world countries. To swallow pride and admit that we weren't right. People don't have a whole lot to do these days, so the energy they do have is usually channeled into self-image. Humility is a fundamental building block for self-image but it's not a pleasant one, so people will generally do anything they can to stay away from it- to that end they stay away from anything that might imply they _need_ it. 

Given the world in which we live, one of prosperity, Facebook and moral ambiguity, it is very, very easy to suspend that reality and suffer no immediate, or at the very least, readily apparent consequence. 

A person who cheats is usually very prideful as well. So yeah, don't hold your breath.


----------



## LongWalk

It's complicated.

That's a platitude that is worth exploring via concrete examples:

I did not know what Aspergers was until a few years ago. But after meeting both men and women who are able to study and work while lacking certain social skills made me realize. They are not messing up because they want to mess up. They are emotionally colorblind. This creates all sorts of problems for them in relationships. I had a good friend who was a workout buddy. We trained together a lot and even built up a group of swimmers. He is a geek who has a management level job with a multinational IT company that you are familiar with. Eventually, I realized something was wrong with him because he lost the ability to talk to women. All he had was a cyber fvck buddy single mom in California. The also had random one night stands. Then he chased a woman in our club and his behavior was insane. He could not understand how to act appropriately.

Today I hardly ever see him. He has girlfriend (colleague from work) who has isolated him from this sports interests. He is in some sort of of co-dependent relationship. She is probably a good person but their relationship comes at the expense of balance. Or maybe they are holding each other together. I don't know.

To deal with infidelity in these sorts of relationships would be very difficult because of the underlying problems.

So everywhere there are varying circumstances. FOO, substance abuse. 

Infidelity is an enormous betrayal because it is existential. It is not the only type of betrayal. It is not the only way to hurt somebody profoundly.


----------



## Maxo

jld said:


> I remember a post EI made describing her husband coming to her and saying he knew he had a lot to apologize for. I thought his taking responsibility in that way was inspiring.
> 
> I am not sure why so many people on TAM only think about the pain of the BS, and not the pain that drove the WS to the affair.


Probably because studies have shown that most of the time, the WS was causing the BS even more pain,pre-affair. Yet the BS still remained faithful.


----------



## Maxo

I feel we give many WSs too much credit for accurately reporting on the state of the marriage. I agrre that in most cases, a BS is probably a good but imperfect person dealing with a spouse who thinks others are responsible for the cheaters dissatisfaction.
In reality, most cheaters are bottomless pits of need with poor coping skills,low integrity and a lack of empathy.
No wonder they are known to generate most of the marital problems.
I bet the majority of the BS s were trying like crazy to meet needs and make the cheater happy.
But seriously, how do you keep such a person happy.


----------



## jld

Maxo said:


> Probably because studies have shown that most of the time, the WS was causing the BS even more pain,pre-affair.





Maxo said:


> No wonder they are known to generate most of the marital problems.


References, please.


----------



## LongWalk

Who was the sh*ttier spouse prior to the affair?
There is no universal answer. It is even possible that a cheater is the better person but that does not change the essential deceptive nature of adultery.


----------



## ConanHub

LongWalk said:


> Who was the sh*ttier spouse prior to the affair?
> There is no universal answer. It is even possible that a cheater is the better person but that does not change the essential deceptive nature of adultery.


Might be anecdotal but in the majority of the cases I have seen, the cheater was always the nastier, more selfish person than the BS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo

jld said:


> References, please.


I will see if I can dredge some up. I did this research years ago. I seem to recall Shirley Glass mentioning this but could be wrong.
But,think about it. It makes sense. You have a person who,by definition, has shown incredible dishonesty and lack of integrity by the cheating alone. Then,with the availability of divorce,counseling,seperation etc( some of the many honorable options available to address dissatisfaction), you have a person with such poor copi g skills that he or she elects one of the cruelest forms of spousal abuse as an option. By definition, that shows both a lack of empathy and poor problem solving skill,not to mention cowardice.
To me,someone who elects to go this cruel,cowardly,abusive route is very likely the type to have caused a lot of problems in the pre-affair marriage.
F


----------



## jld

Maxo said:


> I will see if I can dredge some up. I did this research years ago. I seem to recall Shirley Glass mentioning this but could be wrong.
> But,think about it. It makes sense. You have a person who,by definition, has shown incredible dishonesty and lack of integrity by the cheating alone. Then,with the availability of divorce,counseling,seperation etc( some of the many honorable options available to address dissatisfaction), you have a person with such poor copi g skills that he or she elects one of the cruelest forms of spousal abuse as an option. By definition, that shows both a lack of empathy and poor problem solving skill,not to mention cowardice.
> To me,someone who elects to go this cruel,cowardly,abusive route is very likely the type to have caused a lot of problems in the pre-affair marriage.
> F


You said that there were studies. I would like to see them. Thank you.


----------



## Maxo

jld said:


> You said that there were studies. I would like to see them. Thank you.


I am on vacation but will see if I can loctate my sources when I return. I assume you cheated?


----------



## jld

Maxo said:


> I am on vacation but will see if I can loctate my sources when I return. I assume you cheated?


No. And I do not condone cheating, either.


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> You said that there were studies. I would like to see them. Thank you.


 I can provide my marriage details if you'd like? Rife with lots of pre-affair, post affair, and at the time current affair destructive and unhealthy behavior..... And hey, who would've thunk it.. I was the reason for her unhappiness and dissatisfaction with life the whole time!! Who knew?!!


----------



## jld

IIJokerII said:


> I can provide my marriage details if you'd like? Rife with lots of pre-affair, post affair, and at the time current affair destructive and unhealthy behavior..... And hey, who would've thunk it.. I was the reason for her unhappiness and dissatisfaction with life the whole time!! Who knew?!!


I am sure there are lots of anecdotes. But Maxo said there are studies proving his assertions. I would like to see those studies.


----------



## IIJokerII

jld said:


> I am sure there are lots of anecdotes. But Maxo said there are studies proving his assertions. I would like to see those studies.


 Look no further than this very forum and all the posts and threads, from men and women alike.


----------



## jld

IIJokerII said:


> Look no further than this very forum and all the posts and threads, from men and women alike.


Anecdotes, especially one-sided ones, are not studies.


----------



## TeddieG

jld said:


> Anecdotes, especially one-sided ones, are not studies.


In other words, the experiences of real people with real life adultery situations and nasty WS's don't count, @Maxo. There's no use engaging jld on this score. In her mind, it's the non-cheating spouse's fault that a cheater cheats. No amount of studies will convince her otherwise. The horrible experience of all of us who have been cheated on is of no consequence.


----------



## jld

TeddieG said:


> In other words, the experiences of real people with real life adultery situations and nasty WS's don't count, @Maxo. There's no use engaging jld on this score. In her mind, it's the non-cheating spouse's fault that a cheater cheats. No amount of studies will convince her otherwise. The horrible experience of all of us who have been cheated on is of no consequence.


Not true. I am certain it is painful to feel betrayed. And I think there are many kinds of betrayal.

But to put the marriage back together, if that is the path that is chosen, I think there has to be transparency and willingness to acknowledge shortcomings on both sides. 

Teddie, I don't think it was ever going to work with your husband. I am very glad you have moved on.


----------



## TeddieG

jld said:


> Not true. I am certain it is painful to feel betrayed. And I think there are many kinds of betrayal.
> 
> But to put the marriage back together, if that is the path that is chosen, I think there has to be transparency and willingness to acknowledge shortcomings on both sides.
> 
> Teddie, I don't think it was ever going to work with your husband. I am very glad you have moved on.


I have said many times in many places on this forum that I told my h many times that I was happy to work on anything in me, with me, about me, that I might be doing, at any time. He told me after his heart attack that I had nothing to ask his forgiveness for. He realized what he had when he chose something else, and he knows precisely how badly he hurt me and he knows precisely what he chose and why he chose it (to alleviate the symptoms of his severe illness for one, to pretend he was 38 years old again for another), and he can't face that a) his choices haven't solved his problems, b) he has MORE problems with the OW than he ever had with me, including financial ones), and c) he lost the best thing he ever had. 

So no, I don't see it working it out with him, but I had plenty of evidence of many years that he was trying to work it out. Bi polar disorder didn't help, nor did poor circulation and episodes of sundowning and early onset Alzheimeirs, which runs in the family, and the ability of her ******* family to manipulate him through guilt and a sense of obligation didn't help either (not to mention their zeal to unload her on him).

You have no idea the horrific experience many people have had watching their ill or medically-challenged spouses put themselves in harms way or create danger for themselves and their family members. But I have friends more experienced in this than someone who has NOT been cheated on who tell me they still think he will come to his senses and come back. I don't think so, but I don't worry about it or lose sleep over it, but with the divorce being so recent, I'd hardly say I'm "moving on." I'd say I am getting along, but moving on will have to wait until I've healed. 

I've got more pressing and serious adjustments to make to my new financial reality than worrying about whether I squeezed the toothpaste tube from the middle or the end.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@bandit.45

I think this has been a great question to pose on TAM. I was already well into our recovery when I found TAM. So I wasn't here when my DDay happened. Had I been it would have been interesting to see what I would have chosen. On my own, because I had already been on the *other* side of infidelity as a WS in a previous relationship, by instinct, the very first thing I did was to refrain from having an unholy emotional blow up and drive him right into the arms of the OW. I intentionally left *my* arms the safe zone and mainly because I saw immediately he was way in over his head and had no idea how to get out of it without adding to his already destructive choice. So, I chose to shine the light on the path and gave him a safe exit. He wisely took me up on it and cut off everything on his own without me ever having to ask. From there we did the hard work that was hell on earth. I know no one here would have advised me to take the path I took of throwing my H a floatation device when he was drowning in a sea of bad choices. To this day he appreciates me for making that choice. Makes me wonder if I would have made that choice if I had been here first. It is not a choice I regret, quite the opposite. It was a moment where I amazed *myself* that I had that kind of strength. Which in turn... fueled my confidence to reconcile.

All interesting thoughts bandit


----------



## IIJokerII

Blossom Leigh said:


> @bandit.45
> 
> I think this has been a great question to pose on TAM. I was already well into our recovery when I found TAM. So I wasn't here when my DDay happened. Had I been it would have been interesting what I would have chosen. On my own, because I had been on the *other* side of infidelity as a WS, by instinct, the very first thing I did was to refrain from having an unholy emotional blow up and drive him right into the arms of the OW. I intentionally left *my* arms the safe zone and mainly because I saw immediately he was way in over his head and had no idea how to get out of it without adding to his already destructive choice. So, I chose to shine the light on the path and gave him a safe exit. He wisely took me up on it and cut off everything on his own without me ever having to ask. From there we did the hard work that was hell on earth. I know no one here would have advised me to take the path I took of throwing my H a floatation device when he was drowning in a sea of bad choices. To this day he appreciates me for making that choice. Makes me wonder if I would have made that choice if I had been here first. It is not a choice I regret, quite the opposite. It was a moment where I amazed *myself* that I had that kind of strength. Which in turn... fueled my confidence to reconcile.
> 
> All interesting thoughts bandit


 I do not think being here alters ay one's realm of thinking, but provides a reflection of what someone's real intentions are or capability. I was a coward at first and too afraid of the consequences of doing what I need to do vs what I felt was right..

I felt that staying the course, and fighting to save the marriage was the right thing to do and that sometimes, people do come out on the other side, stronger, better and much more knowledgeable..

But I couldn't recognize that for the longest time while I was trying to make the best out of a bad situation that the best WAS the bad situation and it could've, and would've gotten much much worse had I done nothing and stayed immobilized to take action.

When I could no longer look at the reflection of my words and conversation with the people here and feel good about it I finally took the steps needed to move on... People sometimes need to understand that not destroying yourself to win a cause is not a defeat.

For what it is worth Blossom, no matter the success you have had or the possibility of a failure that could have been it all boiled down to the fact you both chose each other. It will be an open question to say how long you would've stayed the course had he chosen otherwise.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

IIJokerII said:


> I do not think being here alters ay one's realm of thinking, but provides a reflection of what someone's real intentions are or capability. I was a coward at first and too afraid of the consequences of doing what I need to do vs what I felt was right..
> 
> I felt that staying the course, and fighting to save the marriage was the right thing to do and that sometimes, people do come out on the other side, stronger, better and much more knowledgeable..
> 
> But I couldn't recognize that for the longest time while I was trying to make the best out of a bad situation that the best WAS the bad situation and it could've, and would've gotten much much worse had I done nothing and stayed immobilized to take action.
> 
> When I could no longer look at the reflection of my words and conversation with the people here and feel good about it I finally took the steps needed to move on... People sometimes need to understand that not destroying yourself to win a cause is not a defeat.
> 
> For what it is worth Blossom, no matter the success you have had or the possibility of a failure that could have been* it all boiled down to the fact you both chose each other*. It will be an open question to say how long you would've stayed the course had he chosen otherwise.


THIS is what makes it successful and leaves blame laying in the dust.

Brilliant man Joker...


----------



## bfree

Mr Blunt said:


> You are right Bfree; B1 is almost superhuman. It is also almost superhuman for EI to be rejected so severely for so many years without a severe breakdown. Before anyone gets all uptight, I know that there is no excuse for betrayal. *The reality is that most would crack under such intense rejection for so long.*
> 
> I think that one of the very important things about this forum is that you can read about what brings about severe breakdowns and make your free will choices and actions to AVIOD such horrific damage. As they say; *an once of prevention is worth more than a ton of cure!*
> 
> I think that it is a fact that EI and B1 are the exception and that the vast majority of those that have such breakdowns never recover. Getting help, support, and information on what to do after betrayal is important but for *those that see the reality of betrayal before infidelity and choose to avoid the experience are far better off.*
> 
> I cannot speak for EI and B1 but my guess is that there are going to be some residual damage even though they are so very successful.* I admire EI and B1 but I think prevention is the ultimate victory!*


I took a couple of days to think about this. I have expressed my admiration for @EI on numerous occasions. To have put in all the work she did pre A and yet still have the ability to put in even more work during R shows just how large her capacity to love really is. She is truly a remarkable woman. But I do sometimes wax poetic about @B1 as embarrassing as that is. I guess it's because I was in his position at one point and I know I could not have done what he did. In fact the pain of betrayal changed me forever and almost destroyed me. You and I have gone back and forth over forgiveness and acceptance and I've come to realize that you're right. I do still hold a grudge against my ex even after all these years. I have not been able to totally detach as much as I tried to convince myself that I had. And when I see a man like @B1 not only able to forgive his wife but actively help his wife forgive herself and he does so at the pinnacle of his own agony, frankly I'm in awe. To do what he did when he did when I can't even forgive after three decades tells me that he's so much stronger than I am and I cannot help but have the utmost respect for him. So yes, both @B1 and @EI deserve huge props for their devotion to each other and capacity to love. But I identify with @B1 and am inspired by his ability to forgive amidst incredibly painful circumstances.


----------



## larry.gray

TeddieG said:


> In other words, the experiences of real people with real life adultery situations and nasty WS's don't count, @Maxo. There's no use engaging jld on this score. In her mind, it's the non-cheating spouse's fault that a cheater cheats. No amount of studies will convince her otherwise. The horrible experience of all of us who have been cheated on is of no consequence.


If you investigate her past posts, you'll see that if a woman cheats it is her husband's fault for not meeting her needs; if a man cheats it is because he sucks.


----------



## Maxo

larry.gray said:


> If you investigate her past posts, you'll see that if a woman cheats it is her husband's fault for not meeting her needs; if a man cheats it is because he sucks.


Does she really have this bias? That is ,indeed, very strange,if true.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By bfree*
> But I do sometimes wax poetic about @B1 as embarrassing as that is. I guess it's because I was in his position at one point and I know I could not have done what he did


.

Bfree, in reading about B1 and EI I have also had to pause and be in awe! 

Since B1 and EI are so open and transparent I am going to give my theory about B1. One of the things that I THINK (guess) as to why B1 was so able to do so very well after the affair is that he knew that he had starved EI for years. According to what I remember about the RECONCILIATION thread, B1 was not mean, unfaithful, or physically abusive but he was just so very depriving E1 of what is so very important for a woman. I could be wrong about my guess. Before anyone gets their panties in wad, I KNOW, I KNOW that there is no excuse for betrayal! 

Since I am kind of on a preventive maintenance kick, I want to bring the above up so that maybe someone can realize the very dangereous actions of starving your mate for what they need for YEARS! Also, the fact that B1 had such low T was a major factor also. I know that it very popular on tam to get some satisfaction out of giving the WS a verbal slap in the face. However, for now I just what to focus on another way of assessing the situation by asking a few questions:

*How much satisfaction does it give a BS to berate, ridicule, and throw the WS’s gross betrayal in their face? How much long term gain can the BS get from that?
I know that in some cases it is well deserved but what about the long term R for the BS? *

This thread is titled “They come crawling back” My wife literally came crawling back and begging even though I have never asked for that. Crawling and begging does not make the bigest difference. *What makes the big difference is for both the WS and the BS to diligently drive them to do as many right things as possible for years and years!* If B1 and EI was in a heavy weight fight with Mr. Infidelity then they have knocked down Mr. Infidelity in at least three of the last 4 rounds (4years). A championship fight is for 15 rounds and I am betting that EI and B1 will still be standing at round/year 15 but Mr. Infidelity will be seriously wounded. 

Bfree, as you know every couple’s betrayal is different and that goes for you, me and B1 and EI. Because you said that you could not do what B1 did does not take away from the fact that you changed your life in so many ways for the better. Y*ou are an honest man that truly will help another that has suffered the way that you have.*








> *By Bfree*
> I do still hold a grudge against my ex even after all these years. I have not been able to totally detach as much as I tried to convince myself that I had.


As I previously said, bfree you are a brave and honest man and your words above prove that again.

I do not hold a grudge, resentment, hatred, or any harmful vengeance thoughts for my WS wife. However, what happened to you and me is a lot different. My wife was truly remorseful and has proved that for over 20 years with actions. If I remember your story your wife did not say that at all. I cannot compare myself to B1 or to you nor can you compare yourself to us. In my and B1’s case our wives came back and have shown true remorse with their actions, yours did not, right?

*Regardless of the circumstances Bfree, you are a good man and deserve to get rid of that grudge for YOUR SAKE!* Because you are a man of faith I feel free to tell you what came across my mind as I read your post. You remember the story of joseph and his brothers that planned to kill him but wound up selling him as a slave. Joseph was a slave and then spent some of his best years in prison on a false charge. Joseph suffered for doing RIGHT! Most of my suffering is because I did WRONG! Joseph is an outstanding example of forgiveness and receiving God’ great blessings later in life.

*Genesis 50:20*
9 But Joseph said to them, “Don’t be afraid. Do you think I’m God? 20 You planned to harm me. But God planned it for good. He planned to do what is now being done. He wanted to save many lives.

*Bfree, your destiny and joy is not in the hands of your WS.* You and God changed your wretched life and saved Bfree from disaster. You have spoken of that fact on this very forum.






> *Hebrews 11:6*
> But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.


I would rather trust God to reward me than to depend on a begging wife that is crawling and asking for forgiveness.


----------



## Maxo

Shouldn't that be "Ms. Infidelity" . Why associate infidelity with the male so reflexively?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *by Maxo*
> Shouldn't that be "Ms. Infidelity" . Why associate infidelity with the male so reflexively?


You are right Maxo; for the EI-B1 situation it was Ms. Infidelity.
No anti-male intended.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> I think TAM focuses a lot on right and wrong, and sees them in very black and white terms. I don't think there is much room for real growth, especially for a BS, in that way of thinking.
> 
> If you look at affairs as symptoms of unmet needs, it can change your perspective very quickly. Each partner can become much more humble and understanding. Each starts to look more honestly at themselves and what they did or did not do in the relationship that weakened it. Then true rebuilding, genuine meeting of needs, or dissolution of the union, if rebuilding is not possible, can take place.


I broadly agree with this. I would say "needs and expectations" because some "needs" might be "wants". But you gloss over the rebuilding as if it were much simpler than it is. I guess the pain of infidelity is like the pain of childbirth, something that you can never totally understand unless you experience it. 



Maxo said:


> I feel we give many WSs too much credit for accurately reporting on the state of the marriage. I agrre that in most cases, a BS is probably a good but imperfect person dealing with a spouse who thinks others are responsible for the cheaters dissatisfaction.
> In reality, most cheaters are bottomless pits of need with poor coping skills,low integrity and a lack of empathy.
> No wonder they are known to generate most of the marital problems.
> I bet the majority of the BS s were trying like crazy to meet needs and make the cheater happy.
> But seriously, how do you keep such a person happy.


I agree that cheating shows low integrity, involves a lack of empathy, and could probably be avoided with better coping skills. But I will stick my hand up and say that at the time of my wife's affair, I was a more selfish and less empathetic person than my wife. I just don't think your generatization holds. 




Maxo said:


> Then,with the availability of divorce,counseling,seperation etc( some of the many honorable options available to address dissatisfaction), you have a person with such poor copi g skills that he or she elects one of the cruelest forms of spousal abuse as an option.


One of the complexities is that marriage is a commitment. Adultery breaks it in one way, and divorce (for example) breaks it in another. 

Some people would say that divorce is just wrong. I am less hard line, I think you are better to divorce than cheat, but I also think someone who divorces too easily is not good marriage material. I can understand someone trying to make a bad marriage work and slipping into adultery, and I can respect that they tried with the marriage.



jld said:


> Anecdotes, especially one-sided ones, are not studies.


This is a limitation of TAM. We get a view basically from the BS perspective. So let's take the two WS we have here. 

EI's marriage was in the toilet. She had fought for it, she was done, B1 knew her issues. She originally called herself Empty Inside. One of their root issues was his testosterone levels and unwillingness to seek treatment for them. Her affair was not right, but its a long way from the callous, unfeeling well of selfishness Maxo describes.

Zanne and husband are fighting, not talking, not getting on, not lovers. Disconnected. This was coming from both sides. But it reached the stage where at one point he pulled a gun on her. She was a SAHM, she did not have the means to leave. Again, what she did was wrong, but the situation was a mess from all sides.

If we were more open to what WS had to say, we might get a more rounded view.


----------



## Wazza

Maxo said:


> Does she really have this bias? That is ,indeed, very strange,if true.


She has a philosophy that men are to be a tower of strength to women, and that we don't have the same emotional needs.


----------



## ConanHub

Wazza said:


> She has a philosophy that men are to be a tower of strength to women, and that we don't have the same emotional needs.


She also believes no woman will cheat unless her husband caused her to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

ConanHub said:


> She also believes no woman will cheat unless her husband caused her to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


JLD, is that true?


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> If you investigate her past posts, you'll see that if a woman cheats it is her husband's fault for not meeting her needs; if a man cheats it is because he sucks.


That is your interpretation . . .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> JLD, is that true?


No. While what I have read indicates that women usually cheat because of unmet emotional needs, some cheat for other reasons. 

If we want to help to not only prevent cheating, but encourage healing when it has already happened, we need to try to figure out what might be most likely to lead to it, and what might stand in the way of that healing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WhyMe66

I love my wife so much the thought of her being with someone else makes me throw up in my mouth, but I have come to realize that if she is willing to fornicate (can't use the F word I want) with someone she used to despise then there is no sense in hoping she will come to her senses and come home. I won't be able to trust her again, well not for a real long time, and that is no way to live. I just need to hurry up and get over it, I guess. But that is why I joined this forum-so someone can tell tell me how. She was The Great Love Of My Life and now...


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> I broadly agree with this. I would say "needs and expectations" because some "needs" might be "wants". But you gloss over the rebuilding as if it were much simpler than it is. I guess the pain of infidelity is like the pain of childbirth, something that you can never totally understand unless you experience it.
> 
> 
> I agree that cheating shows low integrity, involves a lack of empathy, and could probably be avoided with better coping skills. But I will stick my hand up and say that at the time of my wife's affair, I was a more selfish and less empathetic person than my wife. I just don't think your generatization holds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the complexities is that marriage is a commitment. Adultery breaks it in one way, and divorce (for example) breaks it in another.
> 
> Some people would say that divorce is just wrong. I am less hard line, I think you are better to divorce than cheat, but I also think someone who divorces too easily is not good marriage material. I can understand someone trying to make a bad marriage work and slipping into adultery, and I can respect that they tried with the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a limitation of TAM. We get a view basically from the BS perspective. So let's take the two WS we have here.
> 
> EI's marriage was in the toilet. She had fought for it, she was done, B1 knew her issues. She originally called herself Empty Inside. One of their root issues was his testosterone levels and unwillingness to seek treatment for them. Her affair was not right, but its a long way from the callous, unfeeling well of selfishness Maxo describes.
> 
> Zanne and husband are fighting, not talking, not getting on, not lovers. Disconnected. This was coming from both sides. But it reached the stage where at one point he pulled a gun on her. She was a SAHM, she did not have the means to leave. Again, what she did was wrong, but the situation was a mess from all sides.
> 
> If we were more open to what WS had to say, we might get a more rounded view.


 @Wazza, you and I have been with Zanne for a long time. I believe we both prayed that she and her husband could repair their marriage. But we both came to realize that there had been too much abuse for that marriage to heal. I for one feared for Zanne's safety if not for her very life. I'm thankful she's no longer in obvious physical danger yet I am still fearful for her emotional safety and spiritual life. You're right, there is so much more to these situations than "betrayed = good, cheater = bad." I realize that much of the advice can be copied and pasted from one poster to another. But if we really want our advice to be effective we should tailor it to each specific case as much as possible.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Myth: &amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;quot;*



jld said:


> No. While what I have read indicates that women usually cheat because of unmet emotional needs, some cheat for other reasons.
> 
> If we want to help to not only prevent cheating, but encourage healing when it has already happened, we need to try to figure out what might be most likely to lead to it, and what might stand in the way of that healing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will agree with you that many women cheat because of unmet emotional needs. However, I also maintain that many men cheat because of (probably different) unmet needs. The real problem most times is lack of effective communication between the spouses. All marriages are lacking in some way(s). But communicating the severity of the problem is what seems to elude most couples.

Just because their situation has been referenced before let's bring up @EI and @B1. They both knew his low T was a main problem but fixing it eluded them both. @B1 probably thought, as my friend thought, that any solution was just a bandaid and wouldn't be all that effective. He probably underestimated how severe it was because those symptoms creep up so slowly they become ingrained in your very being before you realize it. Soon you forget what normal even was. For @EI, she knew how desperate she was for affection and she no doubt grasped at any and all straws to try to get her husband back and to heal her marriage. The one effective step I've seen that will encourage a man to seek testosterone treatment is to talk to a man already receiving it. It's been true in all three cases I've been personally involved in so maybe pre-affair that might have been the one thing that could have encouraged @B1 to be more enthusiastic about seeking treatment. Maybe nobody @B1 knew and trusted had received treatment for low T? Maybe he did talk to someone and was just especially stubborn. In either case @EI would most likely not have known how important this "peer pressure/encouragement" would be so she wouldn't have known to place greater emphasis on this step. The point is that @B1 was in a fog, a fog due to a medical condition, and there was likely no way that anything short of an affair or a divorce was going to break him out of it. @EI's message was lost, it never fully got through to @B1, it never communicated just how desperate she was in her situation. I think this happens in most marriages that end or are struck by Mr./Mrs. Infidelity. So I agree with jld that we should not excuse cheating but should definitely try to uncover the unmet needs on both sides and see why the desperate pleas to have those needs met went unanswered.


----------



## Maxo

Based on my experience,I fee men have equal emotional needs as women.a lot of people cling to the sterotypes we have been fed.
I also feel that women are driven to cheat due to their desire for sex with a variety of men every bit as much as men want variety.


----------



## bfree

Mr Blunt said:


> .
> 
> Bfree, in reading about B1 and EI I have also had to pause and be in awe!
> 
> Since B1 and EI are so open and transparent I am going to give my theory about B1. One of the things that I THINK (guess) as to why B1 was so able to do so very well after the affair is that he knew that he had starved EI for years. According to what I remember about the RECONCILIATION thread, B1 was not mean, unfaithful, or physically abusive but he was just so very depriving E1 of what is so very important for a woman. I could be wrong about my guess. Before anyone gets their panties in wad, I KNOW, I KNOW that there is no excuse for betrayal!
> 
> Since I am kind of on a preventive maintenance kick, I want to bring the above up so that maybe someone can realize the very dangereous actions of starving your mate for what they need for YEARS! Also, the fact that B1 had such low T was a major factor also. I know that it very popular on tam to get some satisfaction out of giving the WS a verbal slap in the face. However, for now I just what to focus on another way of assessing the situation by asking a few questions:
> 
> *How much satisfaction does it give a BS to berate, ridicule, and throw the WS’s gross betrayal in their face? How much long term gain can the BS get from that?
> I know that in some cases it is well deserved but what about the long term R for the BS? *
> 
> This thread is titled “They come crawling back” My wife literally came crawling back and begging even though I have never asked for that. Crawling and begging does not make the bigest difference. *What makes the big difference is for both the WS and the BS to diligently drive them to do as many right things as possible for years and years!* If B1 and EI was in a heavy weight fight with Mr. Infidelity then they have knocked down Mr. Infidelity in at least three of the last 4 rounds (4years). A championship fight is for 15 rounds and I am betting that EI and B1 will still be standing at round/year 15 but Mr. Infidelity will be seriously wounded.
> 
> Bfree, as you know every couple’s betrayal is different and that goes for you, me and B1 and EI. Because you said that you could not do what B1 did does not take away from the fact that you changed your life in so many ways for the better. Y*ou are an honest man that truly will help another that has suffered the way that you have.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I previously said, bfree you are a brave and honest man and your words above prove that again.
> 
> I do not hold a grudge, resentment, hatred, or any harmful vengeance thoughts for my WS wife. However, what happened to you and me is a lot different. My wife was truly remorseful and has proved that for over 20 years with actions. If I remember your story your wife did not say that at all. I cannot compare myself to B1 or to you nor can you compare yourself to us. In my and B1’s case our wives came back and have shown true remorse with their actions, yours did not, right?
> 
> *Regardless of the circumstances Bfree, you are a good man and deserve to get rid of that grudge for YOUR SAKE!* Because you are a man of faith I feel free to tell you what came across my mind as I read your post. You remember the story of joseph and his brothers that planned to kill him but wound up selling him as a slave. Joseph was a slave and then spent some of his best years in prison on a false charge. Joseph suffered for doing RIGHT! Most of my suffering is because I did WRONG! Joseph is an outstanding example of forgiveness and receiving God’ great blessings later in life.
> 
> *Genesis 50:20*
> 9 But Joseph said to them, “Don’t be afraid. Do you think I’m God? 20 You planned to harm me. But God planned it for good. He planned to do what is now being done. He wanted to save many lives.
> 
> *Bfree, your destiny and joy is not in the hands of your WS.* You and God changed your wretched life and saved Bfree from disaster. You have spoken of that fact on this very forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would rather trust God to reward me than to depend on a begging wife that is crawling and asking for forgiveness.


 @Mr Blunt,

No, my ex wife was not remorseful at all. On the day we got divorced she said that if I had been more of a man she wouldn't have had to cheat with all those other men. Being a young man, that comment devastated me to my core. I'm not going to describe the depravity I sunk to because I don't live there anymore but when I was trying to recover from my addictions I reached out to my exW to try to make amends for any damage I caused her. I believe her comment at that time was that I was a loser then just like I was a loser when we were married. Thankfully I had a very good support system in place that helped me not to relapse. That's when I was advised to seek acceptance in lui of forgiveness with the idea that forgiveness would eventually come. You and I have talked about that before. I thought I had achieved a level of forgiveness until a few years ago. My wife, sensing that there was still some resentment toward my ex invited her to a function we were having. I was mildly annoyed but kept my cool. This year my wife again decided to try to invite my ex to Easter dinner. She said Easter is a time of rebirth and we should extend a chance of renewal to my ex (I told you she's a better Christian than I am.) My reply to her suggestion was less than understanding. I told her that I didn't want my exW to be reborn, I wanted her to die. It was not my finest hour as a Christian. I also realized that my negative feelings toward my ex were invading my current happy marriage. Since that time I've been praying and reflecting. My wife believes that the reason I cannot forgive my ex is because I cannot fully forgive myself for the things I did whist addicted to drugs and alcohol. There may be some merit in that. The trouble is that I'm not sure I CAN fully forgive my ex or myself for that matter. I'm going to keep praying on it and I may seek counsel with the pastor after the holidays.

I guess to bring it back to the original post so it's not a threadjack, sometimes they don't come crawling back and that can be as damaging as if they do.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> @Mr Blunt,
> 
> No, my ex wife was not remorseful at all. On the day we got divorced she said that if I had been more of a man she wouldn't have had to cheat with all those other men. Being a young man, that comment devastated me to my core. I'm not going to describe the depravity I sunk to because I don't live there anymore but when I was trying to recover from my addictions I reached out to my exW to try to make amends for any damage I caused her. I believe her comment at that time was that I was a loser then just like I was a loser when we were married. Thankfully I had a very good support system in place that helped me not to relapse. That's when I was advised to seek acceptance in lui of forgiveness with the idea that forgiveness would eventually come. You and I have talked about that before. I thought I had achieved a level of forgiveness until a few years ago. My wife, sensing that there was still some resentment toward my ex invited her to a function we were having. I was mildly annoyed but kept my cool. This year my wife again decided to try to invite my ex to Easter dinner. She said Easter is a time of rebirth and we should extend a chance of renewal to my ex (I told you she's a better Christian than I am.) My reply to her suggestion was less than understanding. I told her that I didn't want my exW to be reborn, I wanted her to die. It was not my finest hour as a Christian. I also realized that my negative feelings toward my ex were invading my current happy marriage. Since that time I've been praying and reflecting. My wife believes that the reason I cannot forgive my ex is because I cannot fully forgive myself for the things I did whist addicted to drugs and alcohol. There may be some merit in that. The trouble is that I'm not sure I CAN fully forgive my ex or myself for that matter. I'm going to keep praying on it and I may seek counsel with the pastor after the holidays.
> 
> I guess to bring it back to the original post so it's not a threadjack, sometimes they don't come crawling back and that can be as damaging as if they do.


She was cruel.


----------



## Mr Blunt

bfree

I tried to send you a PM but got the following message from TAM


"bfree has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her."


----------



## bfree

I turned PM's off after receiving some "unwelcome attention." I'll turn it back on.

Edit: I think it's on now.


----------



## TeddieG

jld said:


> No. While what I have read indicates that women usually cheat because of unmet emotional needs, some cheat for other reasons.
> 
> If we want to help to not only prevent cheating, but encourage healing when it has already happened, we need to try to figure out what might be most likely to lead to it, and what might stand in the way of that healing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, yes. Of course. I doubt anyone would disagree with that. That's not the same as saying that the partner cheated on is the reason the cheater cheated. It is just as common to find that what led to cheating and stands in the way of healing are unresolved issues from family of origin or a person's demons or a person's own inabilities to cope with stress or challenges. That's not the betrayed spouse's fault. 

And that's my complaint with the one-size-fits-all explanation for infidelity. There is no formula, no simple explanation. Human beings are too complex for that, and so are relationships. 

This entire thread started as a challenge to a widely-stated comment about something that tends to be repeated as if it were truth but which isn't necessarily so.


----------



## EI

Bandit,

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to jack your thread for just this one post.  I've been on/off TAM reading, but with Easter coming tomorrow and all of the kids, their families, and fur babies, home for the weekend, I haven't had any time to post. But, since all of the guys went to the park to play basketball, I decided to take a quick break from cooking to check this thread. 

I genuinely appreciate the kind words and affirmations regarding B1's and my reconciliation that so many of you have left on this particular thread. As many of you know, he doesn't read or post on TAM, any longer, but I did mention this thread to him and how he is still often spoken very highly of. He just smiled. He's a man of few words. What he wrote on the Reconciliation thread probably makes up more than half of the words that he has ever written/spoken in his entire life. 

So, here's my thread jack. When I picked up my iPad to login to TAM, I found this message from B1 on my Note Pad. He had my iPad earlier today when he was trying to figure out why the lastest ios update wouldn't install. For anyone who would like to believe that real reconciliation is possible, I leave you this. If both parties genuinely desire it, and are willing to put in the time and effort, the possibilities are endless.


*I LOVE YOU*

I love you because
I know you
I know your heart
I know your mind
I know your intentions
And you are all mine, and I am all yours, forever until the end of time.

-B1 (Of course, he put his real name) 


_HAPPY EASTER, TAMers!!!_


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> No. While what I have read indicates that women usually cheat because of unmet emotional needs, some cheat for other reasons.
> 
> If we want to help to not only prevent cheating, but encourage healing when it has already happened, we need to try to figure out what might be most likely to lead to it, and what might stand in the way of that healing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


jld, although I think you have some novel ideas about marriage, and there are times when I do agree with you on some of our opinions, I cannot help but see a disturbing undercurrent of misandry in your personal views about men. Can you tell us how you came to have these beliefs?. Were you taught these ideas by your mom, or did you adopt these views from various ideologies growing up?


----------



## bandit.45

EI said:


> Bandit,
> 
> I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to jack your thread for just this one post.


Jack off!

Um....I mean jack away!...

Um....

Nevermind.


----------



## bandit.45

bfree said:


> I turned PM's off after receiving some "unwelcome attention."


Getting lovebombed by a TAM lady huh?


----------



## bandit.45

TeddieG said:


> Well, yes. Of course. I doubt anyone would disagree with that. That's not the same as saying that the partner cheated on is the reason the cheater cheated. It is just as common to find that what led to cheating and stands in the way of healing are unresolved issues from family of origin or a person's demons or a person's own inabilities to cope with stress or challenges. That's not the betrayed spouse's fault.
> 
> And that's my complaint with the one-size-fits-all explanation for infidelity. There is no formula, no simple explanation. Human beings are too complex for that, and so are relationships.
> 
> This entire thread started as a challenge to a widely-stated comment about something that tends to be repeated as if it were truth but which isn't necessarily so.


One thing that those who have never felt the soul-ripping jaws of infidelity (you know who you are) do not grasp is that all these ideas and theories and concepts about why adulterers adulterate fly out the window when it actually happens to *them*. God forbid they ever feel it. 

I believe in absolute free speech. I do not support the suppression of speech or the written word. If a TAM member wants to come on my thread and give an opinion, even if it is an opinion that does not have the weight of personal experience, I welcome the post even though I choose to ignore it or disagree wholeheartedly. 

So for those of you who have never been cheated on, all I can say is... thank you for your opinion. But don't push it on the rest of us who have been through hell and back and actually know what it is like. You cannot....no matter how hard you try to imagine... know what it is like to have your best friend and the one person in your life you trusted more than any other stab you in the back and twist the knife.... then pull the knife out and lick the blood off the blade. 

You just don't. So I say....drop your preconceived notions, studies, polls, statistics, and book learning, and thoroughly read the posts of the betrayeds and actually absorb what they are saying to you, and try to grasp what you are being taught. If you have an open enough mind, you might actually learn a new set of skills to help you survive infidelity should it happen to you.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Jack off!
> 
> Um....I mean jack away!...
> 
> Um....
> 
> Nevermind.


*Bandit!!!!* :surprise:


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> One thing that those who have never felt the soul-ripping jaws of infidelity (you know who you are) do not grasp is that all these ideas and theories and concepts about why adulterers adulterate fly out the window when it actually happens to *them*. God forbid they ever feel it.
> 
> I believe in absolute free speech. I do not support the suppression of speech or the written word. If a TAM member wants to come on my thread and give an opinion, even if it is an opinion that does not have the weight of personal experience, I welcome the post even though I choose to ignore it or disagree wholeheartedly.
> 
> So for those of you who have never been cheated on, all I can say is... thank you for your opinion. But don't push it on the rest of us who have been through hell and back and actually know what it is like. You cannot....no matter how hard you try to imagine... know what it is like to have your best friend and the one person in your life you trusted more than any other stab you in the back and twist the knife.... then pull the knife out and lick the blood off the blade.
> 
> You just don't. So I say....drop your preconceived notions, studies, polls, statistics, and book learning, and thoroughly read the posts of the betrayeds and actually absorb what they are saying to you, and try to grasp what you are being taught. If you have an open enough mind, you might actually learn a new set of skills to help you survive infidelity should it happen to you.


Bandit,

The only perspective I can share is my own, and I honestly try to do that with the best of intentions for anyone who may be reading my posts. But, I know that every word you wrote is true. Not because I have ever been a BS, but because it's common sense and I genuinely am not without sympathy and compassion. Part of the reason I still post is to try to help BS's understand what their WS's _may_ have been thinking. But, just as importantly, I continue reading and posting so that I will _never forget_ what my unbelievably, strong, amazing, and forgiving B1 experienced because of my inability to cope and subsequent choice to betray him and our children. I can't make everyone's WS sorry for the hurt that they have caused their BS, but I am so sorry that each of you are hurting. I truly, truly am. There are so many good people here.


----------



## TeddieG

EI said:


> Bandit,
> 
> The only perspective I can share is my own, and I honestly try to do that with the best of intentions for anyone who may be reading my posts. But, I know that every word you wrote is true. Not because I have ever been a BS, but because it's common sense and I genuinely am not without sympathy and compassion. Part of the reason I still post is to try to help BS's understand what their WS's _may_ have been thinking. *But, just as importantly, I continue reading and posting so that I will never forget what my unbelievably, strong, amazing, and forgiving B1 experienced because of my inability to cope and subsequent choice to betray him and our children.* I can't make everyone's WS sorry for the hurt that they have caused their BS, but I am so sorry that each of you are hurting. I truly, truly am. There are so many good people here.


This would really be something important for those who have simplistic views of why people cheat to consider as well. A WS who wakes up out of the fog and wants to come home and show remorse and reconcile has to face THIS. And really, if someone IS a remorseful and penitent WS, they're not likely to forget what they did to the BS and to any children in the relationship, ever. In a real reconciliation, there is acknowledgment of the hurt and damage, and in the case of the WS who wakes up, there is a realization and awareness of the pain caused for themselves, as well as others. 

It's all just too messy a business to simply say "a spouse cheats because of their partner or their marriage, or because they are a man." And in many MLC circles, spouses are home at the two-year mark or they're not back at all (I know of a couple of cases where people reconciled at 13 years). If a WS can't face the damage s/he's done to himself or herself and to others, it can be very difficult for the WS to choose to come home or reconcile, and if they take too long to do so, the BS may very well have moved on.


----------



## bandit.45

Much of the time it is fear. They fear being rejected by the BS and are unable to find any way to go back. They assume the BS will not want them, so they don't even try.


----------



## bandit.45

WhyMe66 said:


> I love my wife so much the thought of her being with someone else makes me throw up in my mouth, but I have come to realize that if she is willing to fornicate (can't use the F word I want) with someone she used to despise then there is no sense in hoping she will come to her senses and come home. I won't be able to trust her again, well not for a real long time, and that is no way to live. I just need to hurry up and get over it, I guess. But that is why I joined this forum-so someone can tell tell me how. She was The Great Love Of My Life and now...


Please start a thread and tell us the specifics of what is going on.


----------



## WhyMe66

bandit.45 said:


> Please start a thread and tell us the specifics of what is going on.


I did, I just forgot where.


----------



## tech-novelist

WhyMe66 said:


> I did, I just forgot where.


Is this it? http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-after-divorce/325017-there-really-life-after-divorce.html


----------



## bandit.45

I found it and read his threads. Very sad situation.


----------



## bandit.45

WhyMe66 said:


> I did, I just forgot where.


I read your thread, and in your case do not expect her to want to R. She is an ally cat. I knew many immoral women like her growing up in a small copper mining town. Women like her do not change. They hop from one bed to the next, getting their thrills and sucking the men dry. 

Your WW is a remorseless vampire. You need to get the hell out of that house.


----------



## honcho

bandit.45 said:


> Much of the time it is fear. They fear being rejected by the BS and are unable to find any way to go back. They assume the BS will not want them, so they don't even try.


Is it fear or an extension of there own selfish behaviors? They assume the BS will do this or that. They make all the decisions based on what they want to think instead of involving the BS in the process. 

The BS could very well reject them, the BS might not. But excluding the very person who in theory was at one point the most important person in your life seems more selfish than fear.


----------



## bandit.45

honcho said:


> Is it fear or an extension of there own selfish behaviors? They assume the BS will do this or that. They make all the decisions based on what they want to think instead of involving the BS in the process.
> 
> The BS could very well reject them, the BS might not. But excluding the very person who in theory was at one point the most important person in your life seems more selfish than fear.


Sometimes it's both. 

Some cheaters are the types who won't go into a deal without knowing for sure they will come out on top in the exchange.


----------



## WhyMe66

tech-novelist said:


> Is this it? http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-after-divorce/325017-there-really-life-after-divorce.html


Yeah.


----------



## bandit.45

Do WSs who never tried to R with their BSs carry the guilt and pain inside them for the rest of their lives, and just try not to show it? Do they put on airs, knowing they threw away the best thing they ever had? 

Just ruminating....


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Its highly possible, but also highly likely they don't view it as the best they ever had.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## Maxo

I would call it a less cruel and abusive way vs less dignified, although clearly, if you cheated, you did forfeit your dignity as well.


----------



## TaDor

That was all I asked of my XWW... give us 6 months of therapy, self help and time together and if it doesn't work out - then we break up as friends, knowing we tried.

It would have been better on me, and not have such turmoil... and given her a chance to see for herself.

but her choice was to cheat and lie over and over again. And leave. traumatizing our 2 year old hurts the worst.


----------



## Maxo

TaDor said:


> That was all I asked of my XWW... give us 6 months of therapy, self help and time together and if it doesn't work out - then we break up as friends, knowing we tried.
> 
> It would have been better on me, and not have such turmoil... and given her a chance to see for herself.
> 
> but her choice was to cheat and lie over and over again. And leave. traumatizing our 2 year old hurts the worst.


I can tell from the tone of many of the cheater postings, that they have absolutely no clue as to the extent of the trauma they cause.
Although I am not a big Willard Harley fan , in general, I did like his short, 30 minute, videotape where he describes the effects on the BS.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## TaDor

Is there a link to that video of Willard Harley?


----------



## Maxo

It is on his website and also on youtube.


----------



## Maxo

On youtube it is the one entitled " Infidelity: What Every Couple Should Know".


----------



## TaDor

Just watched the video. I wish I *knew* about it before. I think it would have helped if I showed it to my wayward. I don't know if it would, but it might have helped.

I feel that what he said about the pain an such seems accurate.

Also... watching the video caused me some light triggers. It makes me remember the pain. I get twitches.


----------



## Red Sonja

*“That was all I asked of my XWW... give us 6 months of therapy, self help and time together and if it doesn't work out - then we break up as friends, knowing we tried.”*

This is what my STBXH asked of me a couple of months after I moved out of our home after 28 years of marriage. There was no infidelity involved in the marriage (or so I thought at the time). I left because of a very long history of severe neglect, vicious verbal assaults and sexless-ness and, he knew I was leaving.

Anyhow, I accepted his offer and we began dating several times a week (with sleepovers) and attending MC. I was getting hopeful that we could reconcile and then, six months in I find he is dating another woman and he was fvcking her (sorry but I like that word) in the same bed as he’d had me in.

I have no idea why he did this but I do know it was devastating to have gotten my hopes up and then _BAM_. It also makes me wonder about my entire marriage … was he cheating then too? Thanks for that mindfvck, a$$hat. Doesn’t matter because his ticket is punched and the game is over. 

So, no they do not always come back and sometimes even if they do it is not sincere.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Red Sonja said:


> So, no they do not always come back and sometimes even if they do it is not sincere.


Yeah a WS who returns should be watched carefully to see if they are motivated by good intentions or is it just to save themselves from something...and any WS who returns and demands privacy should be left immediately....


----------



## TaDor

I *wanted* her to come back. But she failed in putting in the effort... so... I need to move on.


----------



## Wazza

Maxo said:


> I would call it a less cruel and abusive way vs less dignified, although clearly, if you cheated, you did forfeit your dignity as well.


Zanne's husband reached the point of pulling a gun on her when she wanted to leave. I wonder if your post is straining gnats and swallowing camels. I don't expect I'd think too clearly when I've been staring down the wrong end of a rifle.


----------



## Wazza

TaDor said:


> I *wanted* her to come back. But she failed in putting in the effort... so... I need to move on.


It takes two to make a marriage. That was always true. I just didn't know it before. 

I think divorcing without an affair would have hurt too. I don't know which would have hurt more.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## bfree

Zanne said:


> It is scary to realize the human capacity for destructiveness.
> 
> That said, I don't think you can use _your_ criterion to explain _my_ story. It is the only reason why I am still here relating my experience, although I don't know why I bother sometimes.


You bother because you're a good person and you know that someone somewhere is benefiting from your posts even if they aren't posting themselves.


----------



## bfree

Btw, I can't watch Willard Harleys video without crying. All these years later and it still hurts. But you can move on. You can heal and be happy. And as I'm finally discovering you can learn to forgive.


----------



## Maxo

Wazza said:


> Zanne's husband reached the point of pulling a gun on her when she wanted to leave. I wonder if your post is straining gnats and swallowing camels. I don't expect I'd think too clearly when I've been staring down the wrong end of a rifle.


I still feel cheating is abusive.


----------



## Maxo

bfree said:


> Btw, I can't watch Willard Harleys video without crying. All these years later and it still hurts. But you can move on. You can heal and be happy. And as I'm finally discovering you can learn to forgive.



I am ten years out from discovery and the pain is gone. My XW,who has never apologized is remarried and calls me to chat and joke etc. It never bothers me,although I feel sorry she is so messed up,
.
My kids love her,but have no respect for her.
This pain abates,eventually and I am at peace with the fact that a Cluster B never apologizes or takes any ownership of wrongdoing. 
They are a special breed,to be pitied vs hated.


----------



## bandit.45

Maxo said:


> I am ten years out from discovery and the pain is gone. My XW,who has never apologized is remarried and calls me to chat and joke etc. It never bothers me,although I feel sorry she is so messed up,
> .
> My kids love her,but have no respect for her.
> This pain abates,eventually and I am at peace with the fact that a Cluster B never apologizes or takes any ownership of wrongdoing.
> They are a special breed,to be pitied vs hated.


She's like one of those creepy college age kids who graduated high school a year before you, but kept coming around to the high school because while in HS they mattered and had an identity. But once they graduated they lost that identity. It was like they could not cut the cord. Did you ever know any kids like that? 

That's your exWW. She lost much of her identity and crapped away all the good things in her life that you provided her. Her new husband obviously isn't giving her all she craves, so she pathetically has to call you up and annoy you to feel like she still matters.


----------



## Maxo

bandit.45 said:


> She's like one of those creepy college age kids who graduated high school a year before you, but kept coming around to the high school because while in HS they mattered and had an identity. But once they graduated they lost that identity. It was like they could not cut the cord. Did you ever know any kids like that?
> 
> That's your exWW. She lost much of her identity and crapped away all the good things in her life that you provided her. Her new husband obviously isn't giving her all she craves, so she pathetically has to call you up and annoy you to feel like she still matters.


Yes, i expect that is true. Her new husband seems very uncommunicative. I expect it is lonely for her. Not my problem,though.


----------



## TaDor

Wazza said:


> It takes two to make a marriage. That was always true. I just didn't know it before.
> 
> I think divorcing without an affair would have hurt too. I don't know which would have hurt more.


Yes it takes TWO for a marriage... the failure hurts.
But no... divorcing without an affair would be a walk in the park.

The trauma to the betrayed spouse is worse than rape.
I believe it.


----------



## TaDor

Maxo said:


> Yes, i expect that is true. Her new husband seems very uncommunicative. I expect it is lonely for her. Not my problem,though.


 My wife used to tell everyone - even months before the affair - that I was a great guy, best man in the world, her moon and stars (yep, she said it wrong), we were made for each other, etc. (ouch - sad)

I think I was the best for her - that with more communication - we could have corrected our course. *I* see it. It would have required some effort, but not allot. Oh well, I'll do better next time!

But I bet that some time in the future - she'll see that I didn't just give her one chance, I gave her 3 chances over 3 months to get her act together and what does she have in the end.

I feel sorry for her, in that she is pathetic to has done to herself.


----------



## EI

Maxo said:


> I still feel cheating is abusive.


You're right, it is. But, make no mistake about it, there are many, many ways to cruelly and catastrophically abuse one's spouse. And, if, only if, one is absolutely certain that they are not guilty of one of those many catastrophic abuses, can one claim the moral high ground over their WS. 

It is often stated on TAM that a WS will never understand the pain of being a BS, unless they become a BS, themselves. I can't deny the validity of that statement. But, one can never understand the soul destroying damage of being repeatedly neglected, rejected, humiliated, emotionally abandoned, thrust into a sexless marriage, and left completely alone to try to hold an entire family together, when it was literally falling apart at the seams, all while being told to just accept that as their lot in life because their spouse had a treatable condition that they didn't have the drive or motivation to do anything about....... unless it happens to them.

Cheating is a horrible way to hurt your partner. But, having an affair is not the only way to cheat your partner.


----------



## jld

EI said:


> You're right, it is. But, make no mistake about it, there are many, many ways to cruelly and catastrophically abuse one's spouse. And, if, only if, one is absolutely certain that they are not guilty of one of those many catastrophic abuses, can one claim the moral high ground over their WS.
> 
> It is often stated on TAM that a WS will never understand the pain of being a BS, unless they become a BS, themselves. I can't deny the validity of that statement. But, one can never understand the soul destroying damage of being repeatedly neglected, rejected, humiliated, emotionally abandoned, thrust into a sexless marriage, and left completely alone to try to hold an entire family together, when it was literally falling apart at the seams, all while being told to just accept that as their lot in life because their spouse had a treatable condition that they didn't have the drive or motivation to do anything about....... unless it happens to them.
> 
> Cheating is a horrible way to hurt your partner. But, *having an affair is not the only way to cheat your partner*.


Totally agree, EI. Like Esther Perel says, betrayal comes in many forms.

I don't think healthy spouses worry about claiming the moral high ground. I think they just seek to understand what went wrong and try to do their part to heal the relationship.

You are a real gift to your family and the TAM community, EI.


----------



## bfree

None of us are perfect. There is no moral highground to be claimed when a marriage crumbles. And there is enough blame to go around that heaping more on one spouse or the other is an exercise in futility. Own your own side of the street. Let your spouse own his/hers. And if both own their own maybe reconciliation can work.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> None of us are perfect. There is no moral highground to be claimed when a marriage crumbles. And there is enough blame to go around that heaping more on one spouse or the other is an exercise in futility. Own your own side of the street. Let your spouse own his/hers. And if both own their own maybe reconciliation can work.


Great post, bfree.

Have you ever told the story of your first marriage?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*

I have but I forget where. It's sordid but not complicated. Married young, we were both headstrong and argued a lot but I thought we'd figure it out eventually. Until I found out she'd been cheating with a guy she worked with. During the confrontation she defiantly admitted she'd been cheating with multiple men for our entire marriage. I got angry, she locked herself in the bedroom. Soon after that her lover and his roommates were at my apartment door. They kicked me out of my house so I could "cool off." I spent the night on the streets. The next day my wife said I could come home if I behaved. I spent the next couple of weeks begging her to work things out. She kept putting me off occasionally saying "we'll see" just enough to give me some hope. One night some guy came over who she said was a lawyer. I later found out he was a law clerk who helped her fill out the divorce papers. She sat me down at the kitchen table and basically told me to sign. When I balked begging for another chance she said that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have needed to **** other men. I started crying. She laughed and said "see what I mean." I signed the papers. We didn't have much but what we did have she took. She moved out the next day to her boyfriend's place that he shared with two other guys leaving me in a mostly empty apartment.


----------



## bandit.45

EI said:


> You're right, it is. But, make no mistake about it, there are many, many ways to cruelly and catastrophically abuse one's spouse. And, if, only if, one is absolutely certain that they are not guilty of one of those many catastrophic abuses, can one claim the moral high ground over their WS.
> 
> It is often stated on TAM that a WS will never understand the pain of being a BS, unless they become a BS, themselves. I can't deny the validity of that statement. But, one can never understand the soul destroying damage of being repeatedly neglected, rejected, humiliated, emotionally abandoned, thrust into a sexless marriage, and left completely alone to try to hold an entire family together, when it was literally falling apart at the seams, all while being told to just accept that as their lot in life because their spouse had a treatable condition that they didn't have the drive or motivation to do anything about....... unless it happens to them.
> 
> Cheating is a horrible way to hurt your partner. But, having an affair is not the only way to cheat your partner.



Hmm....

Yeah I get that B1 was neglecting you. And I understand that you were in a unique position where you could not divorce...

But, have you really sat down and looked back on that period objectively to see if there were other options available to you? Other than having an affair?


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> I have but I forget where. It's sordid but not complicated. Married young, we were both headstrong and argued a lot but I thought we'd figure it out eventually. Until I found out she'd been cheating with a guy she worked with. During the confrontation she defiantly admitted she'd been cheating with multiple men for our entire marriage. I got angry, she locked herself in the bedroom. Soon after that her lover and his roommates were at my apartment door. They kicked me out of my house so I could "cool off." I spent the night on the streets. The next day my wife said I could come home if I behaved. I spent the next couple of weeks begging her to work things out. She kept putting me off occasionally saying "we'll see" just enough to give me some hope. One night some guy came over who she said was a lawyer. I later found out he was a law clerk who helped her fill out the divorce papers. She sat me down at the kitchen table and basically told me to sign. When I balked begging for another chance she said that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have needed to **** other men. I started crying. She laughed and said "see what I mean." I signed the papers. We didn't have much but what we did have she took. She moved out the next day to her boyfriend's place that he shared with two other guys leaving me in a mostly empty apartment.


This is what handguns were invented for. Occasions just like these.


----------



## jld

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> I have but I forget where. It's sordid but not complicated. Married young, we were both headstrong and argued a lot but I thought we'd figure it out eventually. Until I found out she'd been cheating with a guy she worked with. During the confrontation she defiantly admitted she'd been cheating with multiple men for our entire marriage. I got angry, she locked herself in the bedroom. Soon after that her lover and his roommates were at my apartment door. They kicked me out of my house so I could "cool off." I spent the night on the streets. The next day my wife said I could come home if I behaved. I spent the next couple of weeks begging her to work things out. She kept putting me off occasionally saying "we'll see" just enough to give me some hope. One night some guy came over who she said was a lawyer. I later found out he was a law clerk who helped her fill out the divorce papers. She sat me down at the kitchen table and basically told me to sign. When I balked begging for another chance she said that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have needed to **** other men. I started crying. She laughed and said "see what I mean." I signed the papers. We didn't have much but what we did have she took. She moved out the next day to her boyfriend's place that he shared with two other guys leaving me in a mostly empty apartment.


Bfree, that is terrible. My goodness. 

I am so glad she did you a favor and left you. She was sick. How could anyone be so unkind? That was truly sick.


----------



## jld

Bfree, no wonder you do not want to see her again. I would not, either.

Your wife invited her to something? And she refused to come, right?

Why would your wife want you to relive that shame and humiliation?


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



jld said:


> Bfree, that is terrible. My goodness.
> 
> I am so glad she did you a favor and left you. She was sick. How could anyone be so unkind? That was truly sick.


Most hardcore cheaters have this mentality jld...

Yes, there really are sick, soulless people like this in the world. There are a lot of them in fact...too many to count.

Jld did you ever get a chance to visit a website called Doc Cool?


----------



## jld

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bandit.45 said:


> Most hardcore cheaters have this mentality jld...
> 
> Yes, there really are sick, soulless people like this in the world. There are a lot of them in fact...too many to count.
> 
> Jld did you ever get a chance to visit a website called *******?


Then thank God for divorce!

That cheating site? Certainly not, bandit.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Bfree, no wonder you do not want to see her again. I would not, either.
> 
> Your wife invited her to something? And she refused to come, right?
> 
> Why would your wife want you to relive that shame and humiliation?


His wife is a peacemaker.


----------



## jld

Don't know anything about a Doc Cool website. Scared to ask what it is, frankly.


----------



## jld

Bfree, how did you get together with someone so sick in the first place?


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



jld said:


> Then thank God for divorce!
> 
> That cheating site? Certainly not, bandit.


Well, it is no longer active I don't think... but for the brave, it allowed a sight into the twisted, entitled and immoral mindset that thousands of people in our society have. Thousands upon thousands of people in our society believe that adultery and treating your spouse like dirt is a privilege.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> His wife is a peacemaker.


If the first wife wants forgiveness, she can come looking for it.


----------



## jld

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bandit.45 said:


> Well, it is no longer active I don't think... but for the brave, it allowed a sight into the twisted, entitled and immoral mindset that thousands of people in our society have. Thousands upon thousands of people in our society believe that adultery and treating your spouse like dirt is a privilege.


I doubt every cheater is like bfree's first wife. My goodness, that woman was criminal.

Bfree, how could you have wanted to stay with her?


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Don't know anything about a Doc Cool website. Scared to ask what it is, frankly.


It was pretty bad. 

Basically the 180 opposite of TAM. Here we teach BSs how to detect cheating and deal with the aftermath. On DC they taught cheaters how to avoid detection, gaslight, lie, and string their BSs along for as long as possible. It was also a hookup site where cheaters could hook up with other cheaters. Pretty awful. 

I visited there twice and had nightmares afterwards. Yuck!


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> It was pretty bad.
> 
> Basically the 180 opposite of TAM. Here we teach BSs how to detect cheating and deal with the aftermath. On DC they taught cheaters how to avoid detection, gaslight, lie, and string their BSs along for as long as possible. It was also a hookup site where cheaters could hook up with other cheaters. Pretty awful.
> 
> I visited there twice and had nightmares afterwards. Yuck!


Why would you even go there, bandit? Educational purposes?

Dug and I watched about 25 minutes of a porn film once. I guess I can say I know what it is now. Not worth those images seared into my mind, though. And that was nearly 20 years ago.

There is a reason to be sexually pure and faithful. It saves a lot of heartache and regret. Focuses our energy on more productive pursuits.

Lol, I sound like a nun. Maybe I should have been one.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Bfree, no wonder you do not want to see her again. I would not, either.
> 
> Your wife invited her to something? And she refused to come, right?
> 
> Why would your wife want you to relive that shame and humiliation?


My wife feels that I have never truly put that period of my life behind me. She thinks if I can find a way to forgive my ex W then I'll be able to forgive myself fully for all that happened in the aftermath. I have to admit that I do still hate myself partially for the way I let this end and for my actions in the next few years after the divorce. I know that God forgives me but I don't think I'll ever be able to completely forgive myself.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



jld said:


> I doubt every cheater is like bfree's first wife. My goodness, that woman was criminal.
> 
> Bfree, how could you have wanted to stay with her?


I was weak, codependent and had no self confidence.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> If the first wife wants forgiveness, she can come looking for it.


She doesn't.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Bfree, how did you get together with someone so sick in the first place?


I've been asking that question for a long time. Still haven't found an answer.


----------



## jld

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> I was weak, codependent and had no self confidence.


I can relate to that. Can totally relate.


----------



## bfree

My ex W was fun, uninhibited and had a zest for life that I found intoxicating. She was also drop dead gorgeous. I put her on a pedestal. When we met I was confident, driven and had a great sense of humor. She sucked all that out of me. She was...is...an emotional vampire. After we divorced I found my confidence in the bottom of a bottle. I left my codependency in the beds of many women but it wasn't until I found strength in God that I truly found myself.


----------



## Maxo

EI said:


> You're right, it is. But, make no mistake about it, there are many, many ways to cruelly and catastrophically abuse one's spouse. And, if, only if, one is absolutely certain that they are not guilty of one of those many catastrophic abuses, can one claim the moral high ground over their WS.
> 
> It is often stated on TAM that a WS will never understand the pain of being a BS, unless they become a BS, themselves. I can't deny the validity of that statement. But, one can never understand the soul destroying damage of being repeatedly neglected, rejected, humiliated, emotionally abandoned, thrust into a sexless marriage, and left completely alone to try to hold an entire family together, when it was literally falling apart at the seams, all while being told to just accept that as their lot in life because their spouse had a treatable condition that they didn't have the drive or motivation to do anything about....... unless it happens to them.
> 
> Cheating is a horrible way to hurt your partner. But, having an affair is not the only way to cheat your partner.


I
Unfortunately, iI experienced that,as well as the cheating. I suspect cheating was just the final straw for many BSs already being abused in other ways.
Yet,we still did not cheat.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> My ex W was fun, uninhibited and had a zest for life that I found intoxicating. She was also drop dead gorgeous. I put her on a pedestal. When we met I was confident, driven and had a great sense of humor. She sucked all that out of me. She was...is...an emotional vampire. After we divorced I found my confidence in the bottom of a bottle. I left my codependency in the beds of many women but it wasn't until I found strength in God that I truly found myself.


 @farsidejunky

Can you relate to this in your first marriage?


----------



## Maxo

Cheating is often just the tip of the abuse iceberg. I have read many stories where the betrayed was experiencing all kinds of abuse.
Yet, ther must be some critical characteristic in some betrayeds where they still refuse to cheat.
I had many offers at that time,I suspect due,largely,to my physical appearance. Still did not do it.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Myth: &amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;quot;*



jld said:


> @farsidejunky
> 
> Can you relate to this in your first marriage?


Not to the wife, or ex wife as it were. She was a little wild, and yes, hot. 

But I suspect if she were to marry who I have become rather than who I was, we would have a dramatically different marriage.

As to the post married life, identical. 

Anger. Punishing females by proxy.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

*Re: Myth: &amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;quot;*



farsidejunky said:


> Not to the wife, or ex wife as it were. She was a little wild, and yes, hot.
> 
> *But I suspect if she were to marry who I have become rather than who I was, we would have a dramatically different marriage.*


Looking back, what would you have done differently?

Has either of you ever asked forgiveness of the other?



> As to the post married life, identical.
> 
> Anger. *Punishing females by proxy.*
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Could you elaborate on the bolded?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Myth: &amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;quot;*

I would clean myself up and focus on the marriage. I was incredibly driven at that time. Very career focused. 

I earned a recognition that approximately 2% of the enlisted personnel in the Army ever earn, and it was about a year of lead up, preliminary evaluations, and studying prior to the actual evaluation. I missed so many things with her while pursuing that. Plus I could not manage my resentment, which caused me to want less to do with her.

As to the bolded, it was poorly worded. What I should have written was "punishing my ex wife by proxy" through using and discarding random women.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

I bet you hurt a lot of women, far. Because of one woman.

What we do not talk out, we act out.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I bet you hurt a lot of women, far. Because of one woman.
> 
> What we do not talk out, we act out.


Yep. In fairness, I did not mislead them. But most of them hoped for something more than a a night or a few weeks of passion.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

bandit.45 said:


> Most hardcore cheaters have this mentality jld...


Not just hard core cheaters. My wife is not hard core, but during the affair she was loco. i was reading Bfree's story and cringing. I too was threatened when I demanded she come home from her boyfriend's. I was told her infidelity was a result of my faults. 

It was like she had a personality transplant for a year. This stuff is fricken' crazy.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Not just hard core cheaters. My wife is not hard core, but during the affair she was loco. i was reading Bfree's story and cringing. I too was threatened when I demanded she come home from her boyfriend's. I was told her infidelity was a result of my faults.
> 
> It was like she had a personality transplant for a year. This stuff is fricken' crazy.


It's so hard to trust again. That's what took the longest to come back, the ability to trust anyone. I still find myself questioning the motives of people.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> It's so hard to trust again. That's what took the longest to come back, the ability to trust anyone. I still find myself questioning the motives of people.


Me too. I don't think that's unhealthy. 

What I believe now is that everyone has a breaking point. You can do a lot to avoid hitting it, but if someone breaks, it's a hell of a ride.

Knowing what I know now, I see pretty much why the affair happened. Hindsight is wonderful.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Hmm....
> 
> Yeah I get that B1 was neglecting you. And I understand that you were in a unique position where you could not divorce...
> 
> But, have you really sat down and looked back on that period objectively to see if there were other options available to you? Other than having an affair?



*So, for anyone who is interested, here is a summary of the book that I have frequently been asked to write.*


Aww Bandit, I wish I had not had the affair. As I type these words, I shake my head, thinking about all of the hurt that it caused my family, You asked if I have looked back on that period objectively to see if there were other options available to me other than having an affair. The answer is, probably, at least a half dozen times a day. Not all day, every day, but in fleeting moments, the regret, the guilt, and the hurt well up inside of me and, yes, I search my brain, desperately trying to create another scenario, another outcome, that might possibly have prevented what happened, but still have lead us to where we are today. 

Back then, I had no ability to reach B1. I don't think there was anything that I didn't try, or wouldn't have tried to reach him. He was completely unreachable. 

I know that everyone says that I should have just gotten a divorce. But, we still had four of our sons at home. Two of them, not even our handicapped son, had just had major orthopedic surgeries; one had surgery on his shoulder to put permanent pins and anchors in to hold it in socket, and the other had four surgeries, which included a cadaver knee transplant, at the age of 18. All of them from sports injuries. Fun fact, yet another son, our youngest, currently has a broken foot and is off from work for the remainder of this month. 

Our finances had never been tighter. Medical costs, and car insurance (those youthful, car totaling males, had driven our auto policy rates to over $900 per month) were killing us. Due to medical bills, we had already mortgaged our house to the max, and then property values tanked, so we were underwater, and the prospect of losing our home became not an "if," but a "when." When we first built the house, in 1996, my parents had put in a full 50% of the equity up front, in cash. That was my inheritance, given in advance of their deaths, to ensure that B1 and I would have a home that was big enough to raise all 5 of their grandchildren, our 3 biological sons, and my niece and nephew, whom we later adopted, and to accommodate the physical needs of our special needs nephew (now, son.) It was like having an investment, but then the market drops, it's good on paper, but if you sell it, you lose it all. Mom and Dad moved into the house, as well. We sold our 1st home, they sold their's, and we all moved in together. Up to that point, my parents had been raising my niece and nephew, but Mom had become very ill with advanced heart disease. I was her caregiver for the next 3 1/2 years until she passed away. Two months after she died, Dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. I took care of him for the next 4 1/2 years until he passed away.

Our daughter was already married and she and her husband had their own home, but our sons who were 21, 20, 18, and 15 at the time, were far from being ready to launch on their own. Our, then, 21 y/o is our special needs son who is wheelchair bound, and requires diaper changing, showering, dressing, feeding, the works. Our, then, 20 y/o was living at home, while attending college, locally, and working nights as a package handler to pay his way through school. Then, came his shoulder surgery. Our, then, 18 y/o was a senior in high school, who was in the top 2% of students in the nation, was class president 4 years in a row, and an excellent kicker on the football team. The knee injury came from playing football with his buddies, long after football season ended, and it destroyed his dream of playing college football. To add insult to injury, 17 months, 4 surgeries, and countless physical therapy sessions later, and he was left with a nasty addiction to opiates which, to this day, surpasses any other catastrophe that B1 and I have ever had to endure. Our youngest son was 15, a sophomore, and was struggling with some depression, after his first heartbreak over a girlfriend, and also from having to move from the small private school he had attended since 2nd grade, to a large public school, because we simply could not afford it anymore. That was something I had promised him would never happen. He was like a fish out of water. And, on top of that, he had had a very bad experience with the drug Accutane, and I honesty believe that it contributed to his depression. Case studies have been done on patients who have taken Accutane and then struggled with depression for years to come. Until we (or I) could get our sons through the going through phase, divorce was absolutely not an option, not financially, not logistically, not physically. 

B1 was the financial provider, and I was literally everything else to our family. I had been a SAHM from the time we had our 2nd son. At that point in our lives, there was no possible way that I could go back to work. None. Our lives had become so incredibly overwhelming, and I needed B1, we all needed him, like never before. He had always been the quiet type, who kept mostly to himself, and was content to spend his free time indulging his love of photography, woodwork, computers.... all very solitary activities. I was so busy, throughout the years, that I didn't have much time to dwell on my loneliness very much. 

But, life was rapidly beginning to wear me down. I had no support, whatsoever. Some people, during hard times, find solace and comfort from their extended family. Mine was all gone. My oldest brother had suddenly passed away, 16 days before my father. He wasn't the brother who is our adopted children's father. That brother is still alive, but that's another story, for another time. Some people find comfort from friends. But, when you have been out of the work force for over 20 years, and you are busy caregiving, and raising a large family, especially with a wheelchair bound, special needs child, you can easily become more and more isolated from mainstream society, as going anywhere, for anything other than the necessities of life, becomes too complicated. Especially, when B1 was completely content with no socializing, at all. 
My one, true, lifelong friend was completely unavailable to me, as her 20 y/o step-son was battling terminal cancer, and she and her husband were traveling back and forth to MD Anderson, in Texas, for his treatment. 

Some people turn to their faith to sustain them during the most difficult times. I had done so my whole life. But, in the few years leading up to my A, my faith had become very weak. I had become extremely angry with God. I simply could not understand how He could allow us to continue suffering one heartache, after another, when I had sought to devote my life to Him, to honor my Mother and Father, to care for the least of these, and to serve my family. I had begun to turn away from God. I never stopped believing, I couldn't not believe, so instead I become angry. As a result, I could find no solace in my faith, either. 

And finally finances; some people might have the financial resources to 
get enough help to ease some of their burdens. Knowing that we would eventually lose our home, but just hoping that we could get our children safely into adulthood first, took a huge toll on me psychologically. I told my therapist that when my foundation of _Faith, Family, Friends, and Finances_ had all crumbled beneath me, and B1 was unwilling or unable to give me any support, love, or hope of a better future, I completely crumbled. I could not bear the loneliness, the hopelessness, the worry, and the fear, all by myself any longer. 

I desperately had the urge to run away, but I couldn't leave my children, and even B1 needed me, even if not as a _wife_, he still relied on me for nearly everything. And, no matter how much he had hurt me, he was still our children's father. I began to pray to not wake up in the mornings, and I cursed God when I did. The more I reached out to B1, the more he pulled away from me, and he even began to pull away from the kids. My love for him slowly turned to resentment, then my feelings towards him almost became loathing, then pity, and finally apathy. The hurting inside was replaced with emptiness. I was [_Empty Inside._ I asked him to move out during the summer of 2010. He flat out refused. I didn't have any plans or intentions to have an affair, I just needed a break from the toxicity in the house, but I couldn't leave our children. They couldn't even drive themselves to/frm their many doctor's appointments and physical therapy sessions after their surgeries. Our special needs son needed total physical care, and our youngest son needed me, as well. They desperately needed B1, but he just wasn't _there._ 

I started doing everything I possibly could to get things in order. I made up my mind that I would divorce B1 as soon as we could extricate ourselves from the house, (still not knowing quite how we would go about that) pay off our debts, get our youngest out of high school in two more years, and finalize the future living arrangements, that had already been put into motion, at his request, for our special needs son. For all of his physical disabilities, and even his cognitive challenges, he is one sharp, motivated, and determined young man. He has been living _on his own,_ in a beautiful, newer 3 bdrm house, in a lovely neighborhood, with another roommate with disabilities, and a full-time, live-in caregiver for over two years now. We're very proud of him. 

Contrary to TAM folklore, not every WS has evil intentions to destroy their BS on the way out the door. Rather than charging up our credit cards, I was paying them off (with B1's earnings, of course) as quickly as possible. I sat up auto-debits for our credit cards; his, mine, and ours, and I began separating our joint credit. That's something that BS's are always told to do on TAM. I had already done that for him. That was certainly more for his future benefit than for mine. He made all of the money. So, his credit was actually going to mean something. I was going to have to start from scratch, anyway. I didn't want to create any financial harm for him or our children. When I planned to leave, I did not intend to ask him for one penny. The kids would then be grown, so no child support would be in order, our special needs son would be living in his own home, and ideally, our three biological sons would be out on their own or working and/or attending college. I was methodically making sure that we would both have our credit in the best possible standing for when we would eventually go our separate ways. I sat up all of B1's medications on automatic refills, and auto-pay. I typed up the passwords to all of our online bills, accounts, and legal documentation for B1's eventual benefit when I would no longer be around to handle things for him.

After exhausting every possible attempt to repair our marriage, and failing to get B1 to agree to temporarily move out during the summer of 2010, for a trial separation, that would not have included seeing others, but instead, with the hope of eventually reconciling, in January, 2011, I typed up a separation agreement, and asked B1 to agree to a legal, in-house separation, that would lead to our eventual divorce. At that point, I stated that I would not be waiting to move on with someone else should an opportunity come my way. I was done. Again, he said _"No."_ He said that I just needed to accept our lot in life, that he had a long time ago, and that I needed to, as well. I could no longer even stand the sight of him or the sound of his breathing, at that point. Yet, I felt hopelessly trapped and suffocated for the foreseeable future. 

At 46, the reality was, my time was running out. I was afraid that by the time I could completely extricate myself from this marriage, that I would be too old and undesirable to find anyone who might want to share my life with me. You guys talk about that **** all the time on TAM. Every BS is instructed to go out and find themselves a younger, hotter, better, more attractive woman. That kind of talk probably doesn't bode well for the more mature female BS's who come to TAM in search of support. The truth is, I was desperate. I was desperate for a kind word, a warm embrace, and a loving touch. I believe that is often referred to as ego kibbles around these parts. Well, you know what? Ego kibbles beat the absolute Hell out of being psychologically and physically deprived of any measure of love, comfort, and support by the one, and only one, person who is supposed to be your source of that measure of love, comfort, and support. 

I wasn't supposed to talk to B1 unless I had something nice to say, and there was nothing nice left to discuss. Trying to talk to him about my worries about our finances and my struggles with our boys never got me anywhere. Life had become completely unbearable for me. Yes, I had other options. I could have put a bullet in my brain and I would have been relieved of my suffering, but that would have left my children to suffer and struggle alone. You know, the children that the TAMers insist that WS's do not care about, because they selfishly only care about themselves. Newsflash, that is complete and utter bull****. My children are my world. Or, I could have tried to continue on, alone in my misery and hopelessness. Only, it was worse than actually being alone, because my antagonist was right there beside me, Unwilling to do anything to relieve my suffering, or any of our suffering, even his own. Those were my _other_options. When I eventually chose selfishness, as a means of coping, and that is ultimately the choice I made, I was the only person on Earth, at that point, who was doing anything for me, just for me. 

Over a 15 month period of time, I had an EA/PA. It was very intense, filled with all of the trappings of a full blown affair. But, not one single moment of it was ever as powerful to me as the very first time my AP and I saw one another, in person, for the first time in over 31 years, at that point, and we just hugged. It was a big, all consuming, tightly squeezed, warm and loving embrace. It was the first time I had not felt _Empty Inside_ for many years. 

So, here we are, miraculously, and genuinely, reconciled. I love B1 with every ounce of my being. I adore him, I cherish him, and I genuinely desire him, once again. And, he loves me in a way that I have never known love could exist. Every day he loves me so completely that my heart is no longer left yearning for something to fill it, but instead it's overflowing. Our struggles in life have not gone away. Our son is an addict, but by the grace of God, he is 155 days clean and sober. But, the fallout from his addiction will continue to plague our entire family for many years to come. Our daughter and son-in-law are struggling with secondary infertility, and our hearts are breaking for them, right alongside their own. We sold our house in a short sale last year, which has been both a blessing and a curse. Our finances always seem to be a struggle, and B1's work is very stressful right now. The difference between then and now is that B1 is truly with me, by my side, loving me, holding me, caring for me every step of the way. 

What could I have done differently? God, I wish I knew. I wish I had never brought another man into our marriage, and for a time, into my heart, even as irretrievably broken as our marriage was. Because the old marriage was irretrievably broken. It's dead and buried. We created a new marriage..... all because B1 loved me. His love is all I ever truly wanted or needed. 

I don't have an answer for you, Bandit. I know that I am supposed to know, by now, what I should have done different. I'm honestly afraid that had I even attempted to continue to bear the unbearable that B1 and I would likely not be together today. Until he was ready to work on himself, and to become a real husband and father, once again, my resentment would have only continued to grow towards him, and by the time he finally got treatment and had had a genuine change of heart, I don't believe that I would have been able to find the compassion towards him that I found, only in his brokenness. His love and renewed commitment to us, and his determination to win back my love, along with my newfound compassion towards him were vital building blocks in our reconciliation.

I don't have time to proofread this right now. Pressing "Submit Reply," anyway.


----------



## MJJEAN

bandit.45 said:


> Most hardcore cheaters have this mentality jld...
> 
> Yes, there really are sick, soulless people like this in the world. There are a lot of them in fact...too many to count.





jld said:


> I doubt every cheater is like bfree's first wife. My goodness, that woman was criminal.
> 
> Bfree, how could you have wanted to stay with her?





jld said:


> Bfree, how did you get together with someone so sick in the first place?





bfree said:


> I've been asking that question for a long time. Still haven't found an answer.


You'd be surprised how many cheaters are exactly like his wife, JLD. Really. I have stories, if you ever want to hear them. Many of those stories make Bfree's wife look almost nice.

How does one end up with these kind of people? Easy. They're wolves in sheeps clothing. They are very good at pretending to be someone they're not. And that's also why BS's sometimes want to stay with them. 



bfree said:


> I have to admit that I do still hate myself partially for the way I let this end and for my actions in the next few years after the divorce. I know that God forgives me but I don't think I'll ever be able to completely forgive myself.


Are you Catholic, by chance? If so, the Anointing of the Sick isn't just for physical ailments. It's used for spiritual ailments as well. If not, a lot of faith traditions have rituals to help with healing mental and spiritual damage.

Maybe participating in some kind of religious ritual will help you heal and forgive yourself.


----------



## sparrow555

EI said:


> *So, for anyone who is interested, here is a summary of the book that I have frequently been asked to write.*
> 
> 
> Aww Bandit, I wish I had not had the affair. As I type these words, I shake my head, thinking about all of the hurt that it caused my family, You asked if I have looked back on that period objectively to see if there were other options available to me other than having an affair. The answer is, probably, at least a half dozen times a day. Not all day, every day, but in fleeting moments, the regret, the guilt, and the hurt well up inside of me and, yes, I search my brain, desperately trying to create another scenario, another outcome, that might possibly have prevented what happened, but still have lead us to where we are today.
> 
> Back then, I had no ability to reach B1. I don't think there was anything that I didn't try, or wouldn't have tried to reach him. He was completely unreachable.
> 
> I know that everyone says that I should have just gotten a divorce. But, we still had four of our sons at home. Two of them, not even our handicapped son, had just had major orthopedic surgeries; one had surgery on his shoulder to put permanent pins and anchors in to hold it in socket, and the other had four surgeries, which included a cadaver knee transplant, at the age of 18. All of them from sports injuries. Fun fact, yet another son, our youngest, currently has a broken foot and is off from work for the remainder of this month.
> 
> Our finances had never been tighter. Medical costs, and car insurance (those youthful, car totaling males, had driven our auto policy rates to over $900 per month) were killing us. Due to medical bills, we had already mortgaged our house to the max, and then property values tanked, so we were underwater, and the prospect of losing our home became not an "if," but a "when." When we first built the house, in 1996, my parents had put in a full 50% of the equity up front, in cash. That was my inheritance, given in advance of their deaths, to ensure that B1 and I would have a home that was big enough to raise all 5 of their grandchildren, our 3 biological sons, and my niece and nephew, whom we later adopted, and to accommodate the physical needs of our special needs nephew (now, son.) It was like having an investment, but then the market drops, it's good on paper, but if you sell it, you lose it all. Mom and Dad moved into the house, as well. We sold our 1st home, they sold their's, and we all moved in together. Up to that point, my parents had been raising my niece and nephew, but Mom had become very ill with advanced heart disease. I was her caregiver for the next 3 1/2 years until she passed away. Two months after she died, Dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. I took care of him for the next 4 1/2 years until he passed away.
> 
> Our daughter was already married and she and her husband had their own home, but our sons who were 21, 20, 18, and 15 at the time, were far from being ready to launch on their own. Our, then, 21 y/o is our special needs son who is wheelchair bound, and requires diaper changing, showering, dressing, feeding, the works. Our, then, 20 y/o was living at home, while attending college, locally, and working nights as a package handler to pay his way through school. Then, came his shoulder surgery. Our, then, 18 y/o was a senior in high school, who was in the top 2% of students in the nation, was class president 4 years in a row, and an excellent kicker on the football team. The knee injury came from playing football with his buddies, long after football season ended, and it destroyed his dream of playing college football. To add insult to injury, 17 months, 4 surgeries, and countless physical therapy sessions later, and he was left with a nasty addiction to opiates which, to this day, surpasses any other catastrophe that B1 and I have ever had to endure. Our youngest son was 15, a sophomore, and was struggling with some depression, after his first heartbreak over a girlfriend, and also from having to move from the small private school he had attended since 2nd grade, to a large public school, because we simply could not afford it anymore. That was something I had promised him would never happen. He was like a fish out of water. And, on top of that, he had had a very bad experience with the drug Accutane, and I honesty believe that it contributed to his depression. Case studies have been done on patients who have taken Accutane and then struggled with depression for years to come. Until we (or I) could get our sons through the going through phase, divorce was absolutely not an option, not financially, not logistically, not physically.
> 
> B1 was the financial provider, and I was literally everything else to our family. I had been a SAHM from the time we had our 2nd son. At that point in our lives, there was no possible way that I could go back to work. None. Our lives had become so incredibly overwhelming, and I needed B1, we all needed him, like never before. He had always been the quiet type, who kept mostly to himself, and was content to spend his free time indulging his love of photography, woodwork, computers.... all very solitary activities. I was so busy, throughout the years, that I didn't have much time to dwell on my loneliness very much.
> 
> But, life was rapidly beginning to wear me down. I had no support, whatsoever. Some people, during hard times, find solace and comfort from their extended family. Mine was all gone. My oldest brother had suddenly passed away, 16 days before my father. He wasn't the brother who is our adopted children's father. That brother is still alive, but that's another story, for another time. Some people find comfort from friends. But, when you have been out of the work force for over 20 years, and you are busy caregiving, and raising a large family, especially with a wheelchair bound, special needs child, you can easily become more and more isolated from mainstream society, as going anywhere, for anything other than the necessities of life, becomes too complicated. Especially, when B1 was completely content with no socializing, at all.
> My one, true, lifelong friend was completely unavailable to me, as her 20 y/o step-son was battling terminal cancer, and she and her husband were traveling back and forth to MD Anderson, in Texas, for his treatment.
> 
> Some people turn to their faith to sustain them during the most difficult times. I had done so my whole life. But, in the few years leading up to my A, my faith had become very weak. I had become extremely angry with God. I simply could not understand how He could allow us to continue suffering one heartache, after another, when I had sought to devote my life to Him, to honor my Mother and Father, to care for the least of these, and to serve my family. I had begun to turn away from God. I never stopped believing, I couldn't not believe, so instead I become angry. As a result, I could find no solace in my faith, either.
> 
> And finally finances; some people might have the financial resources to
> get enough help to ease some of their burdens. Knowing that we would eventually lose our home, but just hoping that we could get our children safely into adulthood first, took a huge toll on me psychologically. I told my therapist that when my foundation of _Faith, Family, Friends, and Finances_ had all crumbled beneath me, and B1 was unwilling or unable to give me any support, love, or hope of a better future, I completely crumbled. I could not bear the loneliness, the hopelessness, the worry, and the fear, all by myself any longer.
> 
> I desperately had the urge to run away, but I couldn't leave my children, and even B1 needed me, even if not as a _wife_, he still relied on me for nearly everything. And, no matter how much he had hurt me, he was still our children's father. I began to pray to not wake up in the mornings, and I cursed God when I did. The more I reached out to B1, the more he pulled away from me, and he even began to pull away from the kids. My love for him slowly turned to resentment, then my feelings towards him almost became loathing, then pity, and finally apathy. The hurting inside was replaced with emptiness. I was [_Empty Inside._ I asked him to move out during the summer of 2010. He flat out refused. I didn't have any plans or intentions to have an affair, I just needed a break from the toxicity in the house, but I couldn't leave our children. They couldn't even drive themselves to/frm their many doctor's appointments and physical therapy sessions after their surgeries. Our special needs son needed total physical care, and our youngest son needed me, as well. They desperately needed B1, but he just wasn't _there._
> 
> I started doing everything I possibly could to get things in order. I made up my mind that I would divorce B1 as soon as we could extricate ourselves from the house, (still not knowing quite how we would go about that) pay off our debts, get our youngest out of high school in two more years, and finalize the future living arrangements, that had already been put into motion, at his request, for our special needs son. For all of his physical disabilities, and even his cognitive challenges, he is one sharp, motivated, and determined young man. He has been living _on his own,_ in a beautiful, newer 3 bdrm house, in a lovely neighborhood, with another roommate with disabilities, and a full-time, live-in caregiver for over two years now. We're very proud of him.
> 
> Contrary to TAM folklore, not every WS has evil intentions to destroy their BS on the way out the door. Rather than charging up our credit cards, I was paying them off (with B1's earnings, of course) as quickly as possible. I sat up auto-debits for our credit cards; his, mine, and ours, and I began separating our joint credit. That's something that BS's are always told to do on TAM. I had already done that for him. That was certainly more for his future benefit than for mine. He made all of the money. So, his credit was actually going to mean something. I was going to have to start from scratch, anyway. I didn't want to create any financial harm for him or our children. When I planned to leave, I did not intend to ask him for one penny. The kids would then be grown, so no child support would be in order, our special needs son would be living in his own home, and ideally, our three biological sons would be out on their own or working and/or attending college. I was methodically making sure that we would both have our credit in the best possible standing for when we would eventually go our separate ways. I sat up all of B1's medications on automatic refills, and auto-pay. I typed up the passwords to all of our online bills, accounts, and legal documentation for B1's eventual benefit when I would no longer be around to handle things for him.
> 
> After exhausting every possible attempt to repair our marriage, and failing to get B1 to agree to temporarily move out during the summer of 2010, for a trial separation, that would not have included seeing others, but instead, with the hope of eventually reconciling, in January, 2011, I typed up a separation agreement, and asked B1 to agree to a legal, in-house separation, that would lead to our eventual divorce. At that point, I stated that I would not be waiting to move on with someone else should an opportunity come my way. I was done. Again, he said _"No."_ He said that I just needed to accept our lot in life, that he had a long time ago, and that I needed to, as well. I could no longer even stand the sight of him or the sound of his breathing, at that point. Yet, I felt hopelessly trapped and suffocated for the foreseeable future.
> 
> At 46, the reality was, my time was running out. I was afraid that by the time I could completely extricate myself from this marriage, that I would be too old and undesirable to find anyone who might want to share my life with me. You guys talk about that **** all the time on TAM. Every BS is instructed to go out and find themselves a younger, hotter, better, more attractive woman. That kind of talk probably doesn't bode well for the more mature female BS's who come to TAM in search of support. The truth is, I was desperate. I was desperate for a kind word, a warm embrace, and a loving touch. I believe that is often referred to as ego kibbles around these parts. Well, you know what? Ego kibbles beat the absolute Hell out of being psychologically and physically deprived of any measure of love, comfort, and support by the one, and only one, person who is supposed to be your source of that measure of love, comfort, and support.
> 
> I wasn't supposed to talk to B1 unless I had something nice to say, and there was nothing nice left to discuss. Trying to talk to him about my worries about our finances and my struggles with our boys never got me anywhere. Life had become completely unbearable for me. Yes, I had other options. I could have put a bullet in my brain and I would have been relieved of my suffering, but that would have left my children to suffer and struggle alone. You know, the children that the TAMers insist that WS's do not care about, because they selfishly only care about themselves. Newsflash, that is complete and utter bull****. My children are my world. Or, I could have tried to continue on, alone in my misery and hopelessness. Only, it was worse than actually being alone, because my antagonist was right there beside me, Unwilling to do anything to relieve my suffering, or any of our suffering, even his own. Those were my _other_options. When I eventually chose selfishness, as a means of coping, and that is ultimately the choice I made, I was the only person on Earth, at that point, who was doing anything for me, just for me.
> 
> Over a 15 month period of time, I had an EA/PA. It was very intense, filled with all of the trappings of a full blown affair. But, not one single moment of it was ever as powerful to me as the very first time my AP and I saw one another, in person, for the first time in over 31 years, at that point, and we just hugged. It was a big, all consuming, tightly squeezed, warm and loving embrace. It was the first time I had not felt _Empty Inside_ for many years.
> 
> So, here we are, miraculously, and genuinely, reconciled. I love B1 with every ounce of my being. I adore him, I cherish him, and I genuinely desire him, once again. And, he loves me in a way that I have never known love could exist. Every day he loves me so completely that my heart is no longer left yearning for something to fill it, but instead it's overflowing. Our struggles in life have not gone away. Our son is an addict, but by the grace of God, he is 155 days clean and sober. But, the fallout from his addiction will continue to plague our entire family for many years to come. Our daughter and son-in-law are struggling with secondary infertility, and our hearts are breaking for them, right alongside their own. We sold our house in a short sale last year, which has been both a blessing and a curse. Our finances always seem to be a struggle, and B1's work is very stressful right now. The difference between then and now is that B1 is truly with me, by my side, loving me, holding me, caring for me every step of the way.
> 
> What could I have done differently? God, I wish I knew. I wish I had never brought another man into our marriage, and for a time, into my heart, even as irretrievably broken as our marriage was. Because the old marriage was irretrievably broken. It's dead and buried. We created a new marriage..... all because B1 loved me. His love is all I ever truly wanted or needed.
> 
> I don't have an answer for you, Bandit. I know that I am supposed to know, by now, what I should have done different. I'm honestly afraid that had I even attempted to continue to bear the unbearable that B1 and I would likely not be together today. Until he was ready to work on himself, and to become a real husband and father, once again, my resentment would have only continued to grow towards him, and by the time he finally got treatment and had had a genuine change of heart, I don't believe that I would have been able to find the compassion towards him that I found, only in his brokenness. His love and renewed commitment to us, and his determination to win back my love, along with my newfound compassion towards him were vital building blocks in our reconciliation.
> 
> I don't have time to proofread this right now. Pressing "Submit Reply," anyway.


Too long. Didn't read. Can you summarize it in a couple of line ? 
:grin2:


----------



## Maxo

EI said:


> *So, for anyone who is interested, here is a summary of the book that I have frequently been asked to write.*
> 
> 
> Aww Bandit, I wish I had not had the affair. As I type these words, I shake my head, thinking about all of the hurt that it caused my family, You asked if I have looked back on that period objectively to see if there were other options available to me other than having an affair. The answer is, probably, at least a half dozen times a day. Not all day, every day, but in fleeting moments, the regret, the guilt, and the hurt well up inside of me and, yes, I search my brain, desperately trying to create another scenario, another outcome, that might possibly have prevented what happened, but still have lead us to where we are today.
> 
> Back then, I had no ability to reach B1. I don't think there was anything that I didn't try, or wouldn't have tried to reach him. He was completely unreachable.
> 
> I know that everyone says that I should have just gotten a divorce. But, we still had four of our sons at home. Two of them, not even our handicapped son, had just had major orthopedic surgeries; one had surgery on his shoulder to put permanent pins and anchors in to hold it in socket, and the other had four surgeries, which included a cadaver knee transplant, at the age of 18. All of them from sports injuries. Fun fact, yet another son, our youngest, currently has a broken foot and is off from work for the remainder of this month.
> 
> Our finances had never been tighter. Medical costs, and car insurance (those youthful, car totaling males, had driven our auto policy rates to over $900 per month) were killing us. Due to medical bills, we had already mortgaged our house to the max, and then property values tanked, so we were underwater, and the prospect of losing our home became not an "if," but a "when." When we first built the house, in 1996, my parents had put in a full 50% of the equity up front, in cash. That was my inheritance, given in advance of their deaths, to ensure that B1 and I would have a home that was big enough to raise all 5 of their grandchildren, our 3 biological sons, and my niece and nephew, whom we later adopted, and to accommodate the physical needs of our special needs nephew (now, son.) It was like having an investment, but then the market drops, it's good on paper, but if you sell it, you lose it all. Mom and Dad moved into the house, as well. We sold our 1st home, they sold their's, and we all moved in together. Up to that point, my parents had been raising my niece and nephew, but Mom had become very ill with advanced heart disease. I was her caregiver for the next 3 1/2 years until she passed away. Two months after she died, Dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. I took care of him for the next 4 1/2 years until he passed away.
> 
> Our daughter was already married and she and her husband had their own home, but our sons who were 21, 20, 18, and 15 at the time, were far from being ready to launch on their own. Our, then, 21 y/o is our special needs son who is wheelchair bound, and requires diaper changing, showering, dressing, feeding, the works. Our, then, 20 y/o was living at home, while attending college, locally, and working nights as a package handler to pay his way through school. Then, came his shoulder surgery. Our, then, 18 y/o was a senior in high school, who was in the top 2% of students in the nation, was class president 4 years in a row, and an excellent kicker on the football team. The knee injury came from playing football with his buddies, long after football season ended, and it destroyed his dream of playing college football. To add insult to injury, 17 months, 4 surgeries, and countless physical therapy sessions later, and he was left with a nasty addiction to opiates which, to this day, surpasses any other catastrophe that B1 and I have ever had to endure. Our youngest son was 15, a sophomore, and was struggling with some depression, after his first heartbreak over a girlfriend, and also from having to move from the small private school he had attended since 2nd grade, to a large public school, because we simply could not afford it anymore. That was something I had promised him would never happen. He was like a fish out of water. And, on top of that, he had had a very bad experience with the drug Accutane, and I honesty believe that it contributed to his depression. Case studies have been done on patients who have taken Accutane and then struggled with depression for years to come. Until we (or I) could get our sons through the going through phase, divorce was absolutely not an option, not financially, not logistically, not physically.
> 
> B1 was the financial provider, and I was literally everything else to our family. I had been a SAHM from the time we had our 2nd son. At that point in our lives, there was no possible way that I could go back to work. None. Our lives had become so incredibly overwhelming, and I needed B1, we all needed him, like never before. He had always been the quiet type, who kept mostly to himself, and was content to spend his free time indulging his love of photography, woodwork, computers.... all very solitary activities. I was so busy, throughout the years, that I didn't have much time to dwell on my loneliness very much.
> 
> But, life was rapidly beginning to wear me down. I had no support, whatsoever. Some people, during hard times, find solace and comfort from their extended family. Mine was all gone. My oldest brother had suddenly passed away, 16 days before my father. He wasn't the brother who is our adopted children's father. That brother is still alive, but that's another story, for another time. Some people find comfort from friends. But, when you have been out of the work force for over 20 years, and you are busy caregiving, and raising a large family, especially with a wheelchair bound, special needs child, you can easily become more and more isolated from mainstream society, as going anywhere, for anything other than the necessities of life, becomes too complicated. Especially, when B1 was completely content with no socializing, at all.
> My one, true, lifelong friend was completely unavailable to me, as her 20 y/o step-son was battling terminal cancer, and she and her husband were traveling back and forth to MD Anderson, in Texas, for his treatment.
> 
> Some people turn to their faith to sustain them during the most difficult times. I had done so my whole life. But, in the few years leading up to my A, my faith had become very weak. I had become extremely angry with God. I simply could not understand how He could allow us to continue suffering one heartache, after another, when I had sought to devote my life to Him, to honor my Mother and Father, to care for the least of these, and to serve my family. I had begun to turn away from God. I never stopped believing, I couldn't not believe, so instead I become angry. As a result, I could find no solace in my faith, either.
> 
> And finally finances; some people might have the financial resources to
> get enough help to ease some of their burdens. Knowing that we would eventually lose our home, but just hoping that we could get our children safely into adulthood first, took a huge toll on me psychologically. I told my therapist that when my foundation of _Faith, Family, Friends, and Finances_ had all crumbled beneath me, and B1 was unwilling or unable to give me any support, love, or hope of a better future, I completely crumbled. I could not bear the loneliness, the hopelessness, the worry, and the fear, all by myself any longer.
> 
> I desperately had the urge to run away, but I couldn't leave my children, and even B1 needed me, even if not as a _wife_, he still relied on me for nearly everything. And, no matter how much he had hurt me, he was still our children's father. I began to pray to not wake up in the mornings, and I cursed God when I did. The more I reached out to B1, the more he pulled away from me, and he even began to pull away from the kids. My love for him slowly turned to resentment, then my feelings towards him almost became loathing, then pity, and finally apathy. The hurting inside was replaced with emptiness. I was [_Empty Inside._ I asked him to move out during the summer of 2010. He flat out refused. I didn't have any plans or intentions to have an affair, I just needed a break from the toxicity in the house, but I couldn't leave our children. They couldn't even drive themselves to/frm their many doctor's appointments and physical therapy sessions after their surgeries. Our special needs son needed total physical care, and our youngest son needed me, as well. They desperately needed B1, but he just wasn't _there._
> 
> I started doing everything I possibly could to get things in order. I made up my mind that I would divorce B1 as soon as we could extricate ourselves from the house, (still not knowing quite how we would go about that) pay off our debts, get our youngest out of high school in two more years, and finalize the future living arrangements, that had already been put into motion, at his request, for our special needs son. For all of his physical disabilities, and even his cognitive challenges, he is one sharp, motivated, and determined young man. He has been living _on his own,_ in a beautiful, newer 3 bdrm house, in a lovely neighborhood, with another roommate with disabilities, and a full-time, live-in caregiver for over two years now. We're very proud of him.
> 
> Contrary to TAM folklore, not every WS has evil intentions to destroy their BS on the way out the door. Rather than charging up our credit cards, I was paying them off (with B1's earnings, of course) as quickly as possible. I sat up auto-debits for our credit cards; his, mine, and ours, and I began separating our joint credit. That's something that BS's are always told to do on TAM. I had already done that for him. That was certainly more for his future benefit than for mine. He made all of the money. So, his credit was actually going to mean something. I was going to have to start from scratch, anyway. I didn't want to create any financial harm for him or our children. When I planned to leave, I did not intend to ask him for one penny. The kids would then be grown, so no child support would be in order, our special needs son would be living in his own home, and ideally, our three biological sons would be out on their own or working and/or attending college. I was methodically making sure that we would both have our credit in the best possible standing for when we would eventually go our separate ways. I sat up all of B1's medications on automatic refills, and auto-pay. I typed up the passwords to all of our online bills, accounts, and legal documentation for B1's eventual benefit when I would no longer be around to handle things for him.
> 
> After exhausting every possible attempt to repair our marriage, and failing to get B1 to agree to temporarily move out during the summer of 2010, for a trial separation, that would not have included seeing others, but instead, with the hope of eventually reconciling, in January, 2011, I typed up a separation agreement, and asked B1 to agree to a legal, in-house separation, that would lead to our eventual divorce. At that point, I stated that I would not be waiting to move on with someone else should an opportunity come my way. I was done. Again, he said _"No."_ He said that I just needed to accept our lot in life, that he had a long time ago, and that I needed to, as well. I could no longer even stand the sight of him or the sound of his breathing, at that point. Yet, I felt hopelessly trapped and suffocated for the foreseeable future.
> 
> At 46, the reality was, my time was running out. I was afraid that by the time I could completely extricate myself from this marriage, that I would be too old and undesirable to find anyone who might want to share my life with me. You guys talk about that **** all the time on TAM. Every BS is instructed to go out and find themselves a younger, hotter, better, more attractive woman. That kind of talk probably doesn't bode well for the more mature female BS's who come to TAM in search of support. The truth is, I was desperate. I was desperate for a kind word, a warm embrace, and a loving touch. I believe that is often referred to as ego kibbles around these parts. Well, you know what? Ego kibbles beat the absolute Hell out of being psychologically and physically deprived of any measure of love, comfort, and support by the one, and only one, person who is supposed to be your source of that measure of love, comfort, and support.
> 
> I wasn't supposed to talk to B1 unless I had something nice to say, and there was nothing nice left to discuss. Trying to talk to him about my worries about our finances and my struggles with our boys never got me anywhere. Life had become completely unbearable for me. Yes, I had other options. I could have put a bullet in my brain and I would have been relieved of my suffering, but that would have left my children to suffer and struggle alone. You know, the children that the TAMers insist that WS's do not care about, because they selfishly only care about themselves. Newsflash, that is complete and utter bull****. My children are my world. Or, I could have tried to continue on, alone in my misery and hopelessness. Only, it was worse than actually being alone, because my antagonist was right there beside me, Unwilling to do anything to relieve my suffering, or any of our suffering, even his own. Those were my _other_options. When I eventually chose selfishness, as a means of coping, and that is ultimately the choice I made, I was the only person on Earth, at that point, who was doing anything for me, just for me.
> 
> Over a 15 month period of time, I had an EA/PA. It was very intense, filled with all of the trappings of a full blown affair. But, not one single moment of it was ever as powerful to me as the very first time my AP and I saw one another, in person, for the first time in over 31 years, at that point, and we just hugged. It was a big, all consuming, tightly squeezed, warm and loving embrace. It was the first time I had not felt _Empty Inside_ for many years.
> 
> So, here we are, miraculously, and genuinely, reconciled. I love B1 with every ounce of my being. I adore him, I cherish him, and I genuinely desire him, once again. And, he loves me in a way that I have never known love could exist. Every day he loves me so completely that my heart is no longer left yearning for something to fill it, but instead it's overflowing. Our struggles in life have not gone away. Our son is an addict, but by the grace of God, he is 155 days clean and sober. But, the fallout from his addiction will continue to plague our entire family for many years to come. Our daughter and son-in-law are struggling with secondary infertility, and our hearts are breaking for them, right alongside their own. We sold our house in a short sale last year, which has been both a blessing and a curse. Our finances always seem to be a struggle, and B1's work is very stressful right now. The difference between then and now is that B1 is truly with me, by my side, loving me, holding me, caring for me every step of the way.
> 
> What could I have done differently? God, I wish I knew. I wish I had never brought another man into our marriage, and for a time, into my heart, even as irretrievably broken as our marriage was. Because the old marriage was irretrievably broken. It's dead and buried. We created a new marriage..... all because B1 loved me. His love is all I ever truly wanted or needed.
> 
> I don't have an answer for you, Bandit. I know that I am supposed to know, by now, what I should have done different. I'm honestly afraid that had I even attempted to continue to bear the unbearable that B1 and I would likely not be together today. Until he was ready to work on himself, and to become a real husband and father, once again, my resentment would have only continued to grow towards him, and by the time he finally got treatment and had had a genuine change of heart, I don't believe that I would have been able to find the compassion towards him that I found, only in his brokenness. His love and renewed commitment to us, and his determination to win back my love, along with my newfound compassion towards him were vital building blocks in our reconciliation.
> 
> I don't have time to proofread this right now. Pressing "Submit Reply," anyway.


Many similarities: disabled son, no affection or support, worn to a frazzle as a financial provider coupled with being mom and dad to our kids. 
And, then I was contacted by my GF from college. Most beautiful woman I had ever dated, an excellent athlete coupled with great physical beauty.
We had not seen each other in 15 years and she was home for the Christmas Holiday and wanted to get together.
I met her for dinner, completely open with my XW about it ( and I had already figured out my XW was cheating).
My old GF was still beautiful, built like a brickhouse and toned etc. She told me over dinner she was engaged, but described the guy as alcoholism and abusive. Wanted me to give her a ride to her mom's house 5 hours away that weekend.
I was tempted, but had my son's birthday party all planned and said no.
That was it, I never took her up on what was, probably, an offer. She wrote to me two times that summer, making it known she was available. I told her no.
I guess I am glad I refrained, although I was holding to a contract that only I was abiding by. I could not have lived with myself and I surely did not want hurting another guy on my conscience, as I knew the extent of the trauma.
We all have our stories and challenges. There is never an excuse for betraying oneself and one's family.


----------



## EI

Maxo said:


> I
> Unfortunately, iI experienced that,as well as the cheating. I suspect cheating was just the final straw for many BSs already being abused in other ways.
> Yet,we still did not cheat.


Maxo, I believe that you suffered terribly at the hands of a cruel, abusive, alcoholic, and personality disordered spouse, in your marriage. Yet, you remained faithful, and then suffered the final indignity of having an unfaithful spouse. So, you did exactly as you should have done, you divorced her. 

There are many, many stories like yours on TAM. We read them everyday. The long suffering and faithful spouse is psychologically abused for many years, and then cheated on. Often, the same WS attempts to manipulate their BS into reconciling with them. Some BS's do so out of a sense of obligation, and some do so out of their own unresolved co-dependency issues. Others, like yourself, justifiably end their farce of a marriage. 

Still, there remain other marriages, with very different stories, stories that most often go untold, because the tellers of these stories are made to feel unwelcome to share them as soon as they refuse to follow the pre-approved TAM script.

In marriages like yours, the fact that you didn't cheat, obviously speaks very positively of your character. But, for every story like yours, there is a story where a husband (not mine) routinely gets drunk and beats the Hell out of his wife, and maybe even the kids, should the kids get on his nerves often enough. But, the husband in this story never once sticks his _manpart_ into some strange _womanpart_. If the wife, in this marriage, eventually cheats on her spouse, and then tries to tell her story on TAM, I don't think that the primary discussion should be about why she did what she did, and how she can prevent herself from ever doing it again, and how she is going to make it up to him, if he decides to give her the _gift_ of reconciling with him, on top of the usual and customary long drawn out discussion about how she would be a hypocrite if she wouldn't forgive him, should he decide to have an RA with her best friend, in order to heal his brokenness. 

Because these types of infidelity stories are rarely, if ever, told from the BS's point of view, we only hear them from the emotionally spent and downtrodden WS's (strike one) who come here, in search of help, usually only to find their next beating in the form of virtual 2 x 4's. 

I, personally, think that the primary discussion regarding that story should be _"What kept you from killing the SOB?"_ 

Maybe, that's just me. But, at that point, other than the negative effects that it could have on the children, I don't really care if she cheated on him, on her way out the door, or not. I just don't.


----------



## EI

Maxo said:


> Many similarities: disabled son, no affection or support, worn to a frazzle as a financial provider coupled with being mom and dad to our kids.
> And, then I was contacted by my GF from college. Most beautiful woman I had ever dated, an excellent athlete coupled with great physical beauty.
> We had not seen each other in 15 years and she was home for the Christmas Holiday and wanted to get together.
> I met her for dinner, completely open with my XW about it ( and I had already figured out my XW was cheating).
> My old GF was still beautiful, built like a brickhouse and toned etc. She told me over dinner she was engaged, but described the guy as alcoholism and abusive. Wanted me to give her a ride to her mom's house 5 hours away that weekend.
> I was tempted, but had my son's birthday party all planned and said no.
> That was it, I never took her up on what was, probably, an offer. She wrote to me two times that summer, making it known she was available. I told her no.
> I guess I am glad I refrained, although I was holding to a contract that only I was abiding by. I could not have lived with myself and I surely did not want hurting another guy on my conscience, as I knew the extent of the trauma.
> We all have our stories and challenges. There is never an excuse for betraying oneself and one's family.


You're absolutely right, Maxo. I desperately wish that I had had the same ability as you, to continue enduring the pain I was in, until I could honorably find my way out of it or through it. You are a true stand up gentleman. Your children are blessed beyond measure to have you as their father. 

FWIW, though my family was not spared the heartache caused by my betrayal, my AP was single. Though, I was still married, I would not have allowed myself to become involved with a married man. But, I will admit, that with the defeated state that I was in, had it not been him, it would have been someone else. I was literally desperate for something, anything other than the all-consuming pain that I was living in.


----------



## Marduk

jld said:


> Totally agree, EI. Like Esther Perel says, betrayal comes in many forms.
> 
> I don't think healthy spouses worry about claiming the moral high ground. I think they just seek to understand what went wrong and try to do their part to heal the relationship.
> 
> You are a real gift to your family and the TAM community, EI.


I think healthy humans also weigh the potential good and bad of a negative relationship and come to a decision about whether it's worth it or not.

Otherwise, I agree.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> ~~When I balked begging for another chance she said that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have needed to **** other men. I started crying. She laughed and said "see what I mean." I signed the papers. We didn't have much but what we did have she took. She moved out the next day to her boyfriend's place that he shared with two other guys leaving me in a mostly empty apartment.


Your post gave me mind movies. Ugh - I almost want to barf, I need to get out there and meet new women.

Thing is - my XWW told me the thought and seeing me with other women bothered her.... like WTF, but you did this to us?! 

I've decided to go to a strip club this weekend. Hopefully see how I control myself... panic attack wise. Today, I went to a decent porn site didn't have an anxiety attack.

Compared to a few days ago - A few sentences from a sex-story caused one.

What urks me is that *IF* some how my WW gets her head together a few years form now... *I'm getting mind movies thinking about it - her with other guys* I doubt I'd be able even try.


----------



## bandit.45

MJJEAN said:


> Are you Catholic, by chance? If so, the Anointing of the Sick isn't just for physical ailments. It's used for spiritual ailments as well. If not, a lot of faith traditions have rituals to help with healing mental and spiritual damage.
> 
> Maybe participating in some kind of religious ritual will help you heal and forgive yourself.


We need to take him to Northern Arizona and let a Navajo medicine man do a sing for him. Clear out the Dark Wind in him.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> *Why would you even go there, bandit? Educational purposes?
> *
> Dug and I watched about 25 minutes of a porn film once. I guess I can say I know what it is now. Not worth those images seared into my mind, though. And that was nearly 20 years ago.
> 
> There is a reason to be sexually pure and faithful. It saves a lot of heartache and regret. Focuses our energy on more productive pursuits.
> 
> Lol, I sound like a nun. Maybe I should have been one.


Yeah. I'm pretty fearless. A bunch of the TAM posters were railing about the place so I decided to go there and see what the fuss was a bout. Good God! It was awful. I think my first visit was maybe ten minutes and the second one maybe twenty. Never went there again. Couldn't stomach it.


----------



## jld

EI said:


> I, personally, think that the primary discussion regarding that story should be _"What kept you from killing the SOB?"_


----------



## jld

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



TaDor said:


> Your post gave me mind movies. Ugh - I almost want to barf, I need to get out there and meet new women.
> 
> Thing is - my XWW told me the thought and seeing me with other women bothered her.... like WTF, but you did this to us?!
> 
> I've decided to go to a strip club this weekend. Hopefully see how I control myself... panic attack wise. Today, I went to a decent porn site didn't have an anxiety attack.
> 
> Compared to a few days ago - A few sentences from a sex-story caused one.
> 
> What urks me is that *IF* some how my WW gets her head together a few years form now... *I'm getting mind movies thinking about it - her with other guys* I doubt I'd be able even try.


Please stay away from porn and strip clubs and the like. Please set your mind on more noble pursuits.


----------



## bandit.45

bfree said:


> I've been asking that question for a long time. Still haven't found an answer.


I think she was just a predator. Predators specialize. She saw aspects of your personality that matched other people in her past she was able to manipulate and exploit. She knew how to work you...knew what buttons to push to get you hooked. Then it was a maul-fest after that. 

She is the lowest class of human vermin. A sociopath with social skills...a female sexual Ted Bundy. 

Don't feel bad man. 

Too bad you didn't have your Beretta 9mm. You could have de-kneecapped those guys. And you would have been within the boundaries of the law to do so.


----------



## Maxo

marduk said:


> I think healthy humans also weigh the potential good and bad of a negative relationship and come to a decision about whether it's worth it or not.
> 
> Otherwise, I agree.


Check out Esther Perel's actual credentials. They are less than impressive and she tries to embellish them claiming status on the faculty at Columbia. Completly bogus.


----------



## Marduk

Maxo said:


> Check out Esther Perel's actual credentials. They are less than impressive and she tries to embellish them claiming status on the faculty at Columbia. Completly bogus.


Really? Help me out with that, news to me.


----------



## TaDor

I'm putting that into considerations. I want to look at OTHER woman with a different mindset. Not evil or anything - but free of my wife. Free to think "I can ask her out" - not talking about strippers, they are nothing but a paid fantasy.


----------



## bandit.45

TaDor said:


> I'm putting that into considerations. I want to look at OTHER woman with a different mindset. Not evil or anything - but free of my wife. Free to think "I can ask her out" - not talking about strippers, they are nothing but a paid fantasy.


You are young. When you cross 45 and become an old fart like me, you will look back at your hedonistic evenings in the titty bars and bemoan the huge amounts of cash you blew there just to have a bimbo shake her boobs in your face.


----------



## becareful

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> I have but I forget where. It's sordid but not complicated. Married young, we were both headstrong and argued a lot but I thought we'd figure it out eventually. Until I found out she'd been cheating with a guy she worked with. During the confrontation she defiantly admitted she'd been cheating with multiple men for our entire marriage. I got angry, she locked herself in the bedroom. Soon after that her lover and his roommates were at my apartment door. They kicked me out of my house so I could "cool off." I spent the night on the streets. The next day my wife said I could come home if I behaved. I spent the next couple of weeks begging her to work things out. She kept putting me off occasionally saying "we'll see" just enough to give me some hope. One night some guy came over who she said was a lawyer. I later found out he was a law clerk who helped her fill out the divorce papers. She sat me down at the kitchen table and basically told me to sign. When I balked begging for another chance she said that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have needed to **** other men. I started crying. She laughed and said "see what I mean." I signed the papers. We didn't have much but what we did have she took. She moved out the next day to her boyfriend's place that he shared with two other guys leaving me in a mostly empty apartment.


Do you know how she fared after the divorce? I'm sorry she was so cruel to you.


----------



## TaDor

bandit.45 said:


> You are young. When you cross 45 and become an old fart like me, you will look back at your hedonistic evenings in the titty bars and bemoan the huge amounts of cash you blew there just to have a bimbo shake her boobs in your face.


I'm 46... I'm not looking to blow a lot of cash. Like $50~60 or so. 30~60 minutes. Take in looking at OTHER women.

I've only been to titty bars about 10 times in my life.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



becareful said:


> Do you know how she fared after the divorce? I'm sorry she was so cruel to you.


She ended up cheating with one of her co-workers roommates. He kicked her out. She continued to "pursue life to the fullest" going from one short term relationship to another for quite a while. Life began wearing her down and her looks started failing her until her relationships turned into weekenders and then into one night stands. At least this is what I've been able to gather from others since I was pretty much immersed in a substance abuse hell of my own making. When I finally did catch up to her trying to make amends during my recovery period she looked very hard and worn down. Now she's overweight, bitter and always looks tired. She never did settle down with anyone. Turns out our short marriage was the longest relationship she ever had.


----------



## bfree

bandit.45 said:


> We need to take him to Northern Arizona and let a Navajo medicine man do a sing for him. Clear out the Dark Wind in him.


Dark Wind huh? Sounds like something you get after free burrito night at Taco Bell.


----------



## bandit.45

TaDor said:


> I'm 46... I'm not looking to blow a lot of cash. Like $50~60 or so. 30~60 minutes. Take in looking at OTHER women.
> 
> I've only been to titty bars about 10 times in my life.


Damn you're old.


----------



## honcho

bandit.45 said:


> Damn you're old.


Every strip club has the creepy old guy in it. Last time I was in one was with some guys from work one of the dancers came over, sat down next to us and it turned out to be a friend of one of my buddies daughters. This made for an awkward moment. 

We all kind of decided at that moment we had reached creepy old guy stage and left. 

I'd highly suggest tabor avoid the strip clubs for now, it's been less than a week since his ex left for another man and sitting in a room with a bunch of drunks tossing money at women and acting stupid is gonna trigger him.


----------



## Maxo

:frown2:


bandit.45 said:


> We need to take him to Northern Arizona and let a Navajo medicine man do a sing for him. Clear out the Dark Wind in him.


Diaz brothers could Stockton Slap him,maybe?


----------



## Maxo

marduk said:


> Really? Help me out with that, news to me.


Someone on Chump Lady researched her. I believe her degree is from some unknown online place in "play therapy" or something. And,her husband has some affiliation with Columbia,not her.
She has an accent and does decent new age speak. Chump Lady has used the UBT on a few of her articles. Hilarious.


----------



## larry.gray

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bandit.45 said:


> Well, it is no longer active I don't think... but for the brave, it allowed a sight into the twisted, entitled and immoral mindset that thousands of people in our society have. Thousands upon thousands of people in our society believe that adultery and treating your spouse like dirt is a privilege.


The website was created by a dude who saw it as a business opportunity. He ran many forums, using them as a business model where he'd host a forum he thought people needed and he'd make money off the advertising revenue. He figured a website promoting a place for cheaters as yet another way to drive traffic to a forum, much like AM did. 

Being an open, pro-cheating site resulted in some really nasty stuff. What killed it was a thread where someone asked if they got a thrill out of getting their spouses to have sex with them right after having sex with their AP. Multiple women fessed up to enjoying the humiliation they put on their husband by getting them to perform oral after the OM ejaculated in them. 

Someone PMed the forum owner and pointed those specific posts out to him. He was so disgusted by it that he posted that he was killing the forum and that he regretted what he did.


----------



## larry.gray

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



jld said:


> I doubt every cheater is like bfree's first wife. My goodness, that woman was criminal.


You are correct in that there is a wide variety.

There are some who feel trapped and seek cheating as a way to get what they are missing and longing for.

There are those who have bad boundaries, moments of weaknesses and other ways to "fall into an affair."

But far more common are those on the cluster B spectrum who are incapable of empathy or worse, enjoy the pain of others. Never, ever doubt the ability of someone with a personality disorder to be cruel to others.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



larry.gray said:


> The website was created by a dude who saw it as a business opportunity. He ran many forums, using them as a business model where he'd host a forum he thought people needed and he'd make money off the advertising revenue. He figured a website promoting a place for cheaters as yet another way to drive traffic to a forum, much like AM did.
> 
> Being an open, pro-cheating site resulted in some really nasty stuff. What killed it was a thread where someone asked if they got a thrill out of getting their spouses to have sex with them right after having sex with their AP. Multiple women fessed up to enjoying the humiliation they put on their husband by getting them to perform oral after the OM ejaculated in them.
> 
> Someone PMed the forum owner and pointed those specific posts out to him. He was so disgusted by it that he posted that he was killing the forum and that he regretted what he did.


Wow...eww...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr Blunt

Bfree
You took an enormous amount of abuse from your ex-wife! In fact, in your case there should be another word that is much stronger than abuse to describe what she did. You allowed and endured a terrible amount of destruction to your self-esteem. You said that



> “I have to admit that I do still hate myself partially for the way I let this end and for my actions in the next few years after the divorce.”


The beauty of your faith is that you can become a new person and all those chains that you have around your neck can be passed away.* I hope that you keep building your faith so that you get to the point that you believe your God’s truth instead of the emotions that are so strong because you have been so abused.* You do not have to have your ex-wife come crawling back; you do not need her for anything.

I have read some of your posts and I see a man that is brutally honest and transparent and strong enough to admit his previous failings that cut so very deep into a persons’ self-respect. That tells me that you have gotten a lot stronger and from what you said below. 



> Quote of Bfree
> “I was weak, codependent and had no self confidence.”



In addition, I see you reaching out to help others to help and you are grateful for the wife you have now and you seem to have a good life in many ways. Your ex-wife seems to be the opposite of you and is bitter, tired, and does not have a spouse like you do that is a positive person that helps you grow. I a sure that you help her grow also.

You and I have had a lot of discussions on forgiveness and you have been hurt more than I have. However, I am uplifted because you are progressing in forgiveness and that WILL BENEFIT YOU! You are an inspiration because you now have a successful marriage and have not allowed your ex-wife’s brutal abuse of you and your failures to keep you from progressing. Your successful marriage is a very powerful proof that you are progressing very well!

Many of us have a lot of past failures but we are not as transparent as you. Your story gives hope to those that have been deeply hurt. The truth is that *you are not what your past failures are; you are a positive person that is improving and giving hope to those that have great regrets. To put into sports terms, the first half means nothing; it is the second half that makes you a winner*!


----------



## Wazza

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> Turns out our short marriage was the longest relationship she ever had.


And that is the bottom line. You can have commitment or you can party. I think some people try to have both.


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> She ended up cheating with one of her co-workers roommates. He kicked her out. She continued to "pursue life to the fullest" going from one short term relationship to another for quite a while. Life began wearing her down and her looks started failing her until her relationships turned into weekenders and then into one night stands. At least this is what I've been able to gather from others since I was pretty much immersed in a substance abuse hell of my own making. When I finally did catch up to her trying to make amends during my recovery period she looked very hard and worn down. *Now she's overweight, bitter and always looks tired*. She never did settle down with anyone. Turns out our short marriage was the longest relationship she ever had.


What the hell is she bitter about? She did it all to herself....


----------



## TaDor

bandit.45 said:


> Damn you're old.


You're OLD to you punk bastard! You'll be 46 some day!

Once I lose another 20 lbs, I'm going to look kick-ass. Bit of a 6-pack and more. Since I'm not a drug user, I don't smoke or vape and a social drinker - I look younger than I am, especially with muscle and fat loss. The other thing is that I am handsome looking too.

But - I haven't dated since my EX, so I its going to take a bit.



honcho said:


> Every strip club has the creepy old guy in it. Last time I was in one was with some guys from work one of the dancers came over, sat down next to us and it turned out to be a friend of one of my buddies daughters. This made for an awkward moment.
> 
> We all kind of decided at that moment we had reached creepy old guy stage and left.
> 
> I'd highly suggest tabor avoid the strip clubs for now, it's been less than a week since his ex left for another man and sitting in a room with a bunch of drunks tossing money at women and acting stupid is gonna trigger him.


LOL! Typical customers in strip clubs ARE OLDER guys who can't get laid anyway. So being old isn't a deal - afterall, you are paying those women to be YOUR friend for 5 minutes.

I've actually got a date with a stripper because I got vibes we like the same thing, but nothing much came of it. We stayed friends and she was in the same social circles anyway.

Actually guys - I feel about 3x better NOW than I did yesterday. Remember, the worst was the first few days when she moved out in Dec - just before Christmas. So than in of itself - will kind of always be a trigger.

And I haven't had my night time anxiety pill. I did some praying today at my church and I had a good talk with an old friend who helped put things in perspective. He sees my wayward about to spiral down - her actions are going crazy and she isn't seeing it yet. He predicted her future will be something like bfree (He's not on this site and he's a player) - he is furious that my XWW would do something like this to me.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> She ended up cheating with one of her co-workers roommates. ~~ When I finally did catch up to her trying to make amends during my recovery period she looked very hard and worn down. Now she's overweight, bitter and always looks tired. She never did settle down with anyone. Turns out our short marriage was the longest relationship she ever had.


This is the future I fearED for my XWW, I told her she would likely end up that way if she doesn't pull out. A few people have told her this as well. Two of them turn into enemies of our relationship (my guess - she told them lies and how unhappy she is, blah blah) saying nasty crap that never happened.

My friend (from the above post) has had experience with lots of women and knows some psychology. He explained that she has the GOOD rational side in battle with her addiction side, which is winning - and that WE ALL have this kind of thing, but for most of us - things balance out properly. So according to him my EX was likely being Truthful when she said she wanted to repair our relationship - but that addiction side is much stronger. And that after a while with her new boy-toy, eventually she'll be addicted to more sex with other guys or whatever.

Its possible she may also get out of the fog, see that she destroyed her future and I would have moved on. Like you have. Like many of have to. And she'll either spiral down into worse problems or maybe better herself for someone else - which will be much harder than if she got she HEAD together enough to realize the addiction/fog she was in.

I have been worried about that future for her since she left. I've seen this before with a GF about 20 years ago. Became a crack-ho, spent over a year on the streets going who knows-where. Still, the thought of that with my X is bugging, me - but also, that feeling is going away - she made her bed.

Affairs destroys lives.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



Truthseeker1 said:


> What the hell is she bitter about? She did it all to herself....


I've only spoken to her one time since our split. It was when I was in substance abuse recovery and I was trying to make amends to those I'd hurt. She says that our divorce hurt her worse than it hurt me. She said that she put everything into our marriage and when it failed she could never open up to anyone again like she had to me. She blamed my weakness and failures for our breakup and therefore I was to blame for her miserable life.

"You were pathetic then and you're even more pathetic now."

Those were the last words I ever heard from her. My wife has spoken to her twice. Once a couple of years ago to invite her to some family function and a little less than a month ago to invite her to come with us to church and to stay for Easter dinner. Obviously she turned my wife down both times.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> I've only spoken to her one time since our split. It was when I was in substance abuse recovery and I was trying to make amends to those I'd hurt. She says that our divorce hurt her worse than it hurt me. She said that she put everything into our marriage and when it failed she could never open up to anyone again like she had to me. She blamed my weakness and failures for our breakup and therefore I was to blame for her miserable life.
> 
> "You were pathetic then and you're even more pathetic now."
> 
> Those were the last words I ever heard from her. My wife has spoken to her twice. Once a couple of years ago to invite her to some family function and a little less than a month ago to invite her to come with us to church and to stay for Easter dinner. Obviously she turned my wife down both times.


Sucks. Just sucks.


----------



## jld

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> I've only spoken to her one time since our split. It was when I was in substance abuse recovery and I was trying to make amends to those I'd hurt. She says that our divorce hurt her worse than it hurt me. She said that she put everything into our marriage and when it failed she could never open up to anyone again like she had to me. She blamed my weakness and failures for our breakup and therefore I was to blame for her miserable life.
> 
> "You were pathetic then and you're even more pathetic now."
> 
> Those were the last words I ever heard from her. My wife has spoken to her twice. Once a couple of years ago to invite her to some family function and a little less than a month ago to invite her to come with us to church and to stay for Easter dinner. Obviously she turned my wife down both times.


She has not reached any peace, bfree. My goodness. She will never be free and healthy until she can see her own hand in her troubles.

Please do not take her words personally. She is not yet in recovery. Those words are the words of a sick person.


----------



## jld

Bfree, what do you think you learned from your experience with her? What would you advise your children, for example, as a result of your experience?


----------



## Wazza

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



TaDor said:


> This is the future I fearED for my XWW, I told her she would likely end up that way if she doesn't pull out. A few people have told her this as well. Two of them turn into enemies of our relationship (my guess - she told them lies and how unhappy she is, blah blah) saying nasty crap that never happened.
> 
> My friend (from the above post) has had experience with lots of women and knows some psychology. He explained that she has the GOOD rational side in battle with her addiction side, which is winning - and that WE ALL have this kind of thing, but for most of us - things balance out properly. So according to him my EX was likely being Truthful when she said she wanted to repair our relationship - but that addiction side is much stronger. And that after a while with her new boy-toy, eventually she'll be addicted to more sex with other guys or whatever.
> 
> Its possible she may also get out of the fog, see that she destroyed her future and I would have moved on. Like you have. Like many of have to. And she'll either spiral down into worse problems or maybe better herself for someone else - which will be much harder than if she got she HEAD together enough to realize the addiction/fog she was in.
> 
> I have been worried about that future for her since she left. I've seen this before with a GF about 20 years ago. Became a crack-ho, spent over a year on the streets going who knows-where. Still, the thought of that with my X is bugging, me - but also, that feeling is going away - she made her bed.
> 
> Affairs destroys lives.


I think a lot of affairs are like that. Everyone has the battle between good and evil going on, and sometimes people break. I know that was true for my wife. It was a phase. 

The thing is though, you can never close Pandora's box. Once something like an affair has occurred, what existed before the affair is gone forever. Even if she comes back, it can never be like she never left. For starters, you know what is possible. Like Bfree's said, you never have the same trust again.


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> I've only spoken to her one time since our split. It was when I was in substance abuse recovery and I was trying to make amends to those I'd hurt. She says that our divorce hurt her worse than it hurt me. She said that she put everything into our marriage and when it failed she could never open up to anyone again like she had to me. She blamed my weakness and failures for our breakup and therefore I was to blame for her miserable life.
> 
> "You were pathetic then and you're even more pathetic now."
> 
> Those were the last words I ever heard from her. My wife has spoken to her twice. Once a couple of years ago to invite her to some family function and a little less than a month ago to invite her to come with us to church and to stay for Easter dinner. Obviously she turned my wife down both times.


Oh boy I'm very sorry ...so everything is your fault? Can I ask you a question - and i'm not being snarky - why do you and your wife keep reaching out to her?


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> Those were the last words I ever heard from her. My wife has spoken to her twice. Once a couple of years ago to invite her to some family function and a little less than a month ago to invite her to come with us to church and to stay for Easter dinner. Obviously she turned my wife down both times.


I understand your wife wanting to be the good Christian but...damn. 

She needs to get a clue. 

Does she know the details of what your exWW did?


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



Truthseeker1 said:


> Oh boy I'm very sorry ...so everything is your fault? Can I ask you a question - and i'm not being snarky - why do you and your wife keep reaching out to her?


I think it's his wife who keeps reaching out. She wants to get that bad girl back into the fold and on the road to Righteousness for His namesake.


----------



## jld

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bandit.45 said:


> I think it's his wife who keeps reaching out. She wants to get that bad girl back into the fold and on the road to Righteousness for His namesake.


Is that the reason, Bfree?

I thought it was because she thought your making peace with the past could free you up fully for the present and the future. I think that is the purpose of forgiveness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



jld said:


> Is that the reason, Bfree?
> 
> I thought it was because she thought your making peace with the past could free you up fully for the present and the future. I think that is the purpose of forgiveness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it's both. My wife is a much better Christian than I am. She genuinely would want to help someone heal and find peace in the Lord although I've tried to tell her that my ex is as far from "religious" as you can get. But as you no doubt discovered from the few exchanges with my wife she is not known for her patience. I've seen her go out of her way to help those that are troubled and suffering. But she has a limit as to how far she's willing to go. She seems to have pushed those boundaries out further when dealing with my ex presumably because she thinks it will help me to put that period of my life behind me. I've explained that my current battle is not with my ex, it's in my own head...and heart and it's not really something she can help me with as much as she may want to.


----------



## jld

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> I think it's both. My wife is a much better Christian than I am. She genuinely would want to help someone heal and find peace in the Lord although I've tried to tell her that my ex is as far from "religious" as you can get. But as you no doubt discovered from the few exchanges with my wife she is not known for her patience. I've seen her go out of her way to help those that are troubled and suffering. But she has a limit as to how far she's willing to go. She seems to have pushed those boundaries out further when dealing with my ex presumably because she thinks it will help me to put that period of my life behind me. I've explained that my current battle is not with my ex, it's in my own head...and heart and it's not really something she can help me with as much as she may want to.


Do you think she may feel a part of you is still with your ex?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bandit.45 said:


> I understand your wife wanting to be the good Christian but...damn.
> 
> She needs to get a clue.
> 
> Does she know the details of what your exWW did?


She does but until you actually experience something it's almost impossible to really know what it's like and how it feels. I've told her about my substance abuse, homelessness, etc. She says she understands but she really doesn't. How could she? And I pray every day that she never will.


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> I think it's both. My wife is a much better Christian than I am. She genuinely would want to help someone heal and find peace in the Lord although I've tried to tell her that my ex is as far from "religious" as you can get. But as you no doubt discovered from the few exchanges with my wife she is not known for her patience. I've seen her go out of her way to help those that are troubled and suffering. But she has a limit as to how far she's willing to go. She seems to have pushed those boundaries out further when dealing with my ex presumably because she thinks it will help me to put that period of my life behind me. I've explained that my current battle is not with my ex, it's in my own head...and heart and it's not really something she can help me with as much as she may want to.


You traded WAY WAY up with your current wife @bfree - she sounds like a wonderful woman...


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Bfree, what do you think you learned from your experience with her? What would you advise your children, for example, as a result of your experience?


I guess my initial response would be that we are all human. We all can and will make mistakes. And those mistakes will invariably hurt those closest to us. Nobody should ever be put on a pedestal.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



jld said:


> Do you think she may feel a part of you is still with your ex?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not "with" my ex but she definitely knows my experiences changed me. When I first came to TAM I posted about having trust issues and how it infrequently spilled into my marriage. It's my opinion that my wife thinks if I can find closure with my ex that my trust issues will disappear. I disagree. Sometimes certain experiences are so strong that they become life changing. They change your very core. I don't think I'll ever trust anyone completely ever again and even finding a way to forgive my ex... and myself... is not going to change that.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bfree said:


> Not "with" my ex but she definitely knows my experiences changed me. When I first came to TAM I posted about having trust issues and how it infrequently spilled into my marriage. It's my opinion that my wife thinks if I can find closure with my ex that my trust issues will disappear. I disagree. Sometimes certain experiences are so strong that they become life changing. They change your very core. I don't think I'll ever trust anyone completely ever again and even finding a way to forgive my ex... and myself... is not going to change that.


What your wife did was cuckoldry carried to an extreme level. She emotionally and psychologically raped you. It was rape.


----------



## jld

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bandit.45 said:


> What your wife did was cuckoldry carried to an extreme level. She emotionally and psychologically raped you. It was rape.


She is a sick person. She is still lost in that sickness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



jld said:


> She is a sick person. She is still lost in that sickness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she is a narcissistic sociopath, there is no coming back from that. There is no therapy or psychiatry that can fix personality disorder. 

She's wired wrong...an improperly built machine. Only a frontal lobe lobotomy can fix a person like her.


----------



## Marc878

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;quot;*



jld said:


> She has not reached any peace, bfree. My goodness. She will never be free and healthy until she can see her own hand in her troubles.
> 
> Please do not take her words personally. She is not yet in recovery. Those words are the words of a sick person.


IMO she fired bfree from that job. She's not his problem now. So who gives a sh!t.

tell your wife to cut the reaching out.


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bandit.45 said:


> If she is a narcissistic sociopath, there is no coming back from that. There is no therapy or psychiatry that can fix personality disorder.
> 
> She's wired wrong...an improperly built machine. Only a frontal lobe lobotomy can fix a person like her.


Bandit you strike me as the type of guy who hates group hugs >


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



Truthseeker1 said:


> Bandit you strike me as the type of guy who hates group hugs >


I'd do it. 

Give me the ice pick...you guys hold her down...and I'll shove it up her nose into the frontal cortex and separate those lobes. 

She won't be a narcissist sociopath anymore. She will be sweet and compliant and will do anything bfree tells her to. Granted, she'll be a little dull at parties, but at least she won't predate any more unsuspecting males.

Like spooning the horn buds out of a bull calf...


----------



## Wazza

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



bandit.45 said:


> I'd do it.
> 
> Give me the ice pick...you guys hold her down...and I'll shove it up her nose into the frontal cortex and separate those lobes.
> 
> She won't be a narcissist sociopath anymore. She will be sweet and compliant and will do anything bfree tells her to. Granted, she'll be a little dull at parties, but at least she won't predate any more unsuspecting males.
> 
> Like spooning the horn buds out of a bull calf...


Getting a little scared here......


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



Wazza said:


> Getting a little scared here......


Well, I grew up ranching and cowboying with my dad. You lose your squeamishness after castrating your first hundred calves. 

But I was being facetious. 

Bfree's wife just needs to back off, shake the dust off her sandals, and walk away and leave the ex alone with her dysfunction.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

lol... @bandit.45
@bfree your ex wife is a true sadist. I see and hear the depth of trauma. Your wife needs to understand that further exposure to your exw will most certainly risk laying new trauma on top of old trauma making things worse, not better. Forgiveness does not necessarily include full reconciliation and choosing to entrust yourself to someone so caustic. There is no guilt in maintaining distance and I encourage you to step off any obligation train you may have yourself on. God knows your limits. Your trust issues are addressed by going to our healing God, not to a caustic sadistic ex. I think it is ok to ask your wife to stop, to honor where you are with this and support a different path than the one she "thinks" will work. I believe she is misinformed, heart is in the right place, but misinformed all the same.


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> lol... @bandit.45
> 
> @bfree your ex wife is a true sadist. I see and hear the depth of trauma. Your wife needs to understand that further exposure to your exw will most certainly risk laying new trauma on top of old trauma making things worse, not better. Forgiveness does not necessarily include full reconciliation and choosing to entrust yourself to someone so caustic. There is no guilt in maintaining distance and I encourage you to step off any obligation train you may have yourself on. God knows your limits. Your trust issues are addressed by going to our healing God, not to a caustic sadistic ex. I think it is ok to ask your wife to stop, to honor where you are with this and support a different path than the one she "thinks" will work. I believe she is misinformed, heart is in the right place, but misinformed all the same.



Blossom is correct. 

You know bfree, you need to remind your wife that none of the original saints (Peter, Paul, Mark, John...etc.) ever chased someone down trying to get them to change their ways and go to church. They spoke their messages in the marketplace and allowed the lost to come to them. Even Jesus taught that there were some who were so corrupt (i.e. the Pharisees) that they were not to be bothered with. 

Your wife has spoken the message to your ex and she has not responded. So, it is time for your wife to put the focus back on you and stop trying to get the ex saved.


----------



## bfree

I agree. Since Easter I've been having one on one prayer sessions with our pastor. And my wife and I are both going to sit down with him and have a few counseling sessions. I love my wife and I know she's trying to help the best way she knows but this is an internal struggle I have to win on my own. I am going to ask if there are things related to my past that she feels are currently affecting our marriage that I should be addressing. If so I'll put my nose to the grindstone and work on those issues. If she's mostly concerned about our future hopefully if she sees me working on things with the pastor that will give her some peace of mind.


----------



## Maxo

Blossom Leigh said:


> lol... @bandit.45
> 
> @bfree your ex wife is a true sadist. I see and hear the depth of trauma. Your wife needs to understand that further exposure to your exw will most certainly risk laying new trauma on top of old trauma making things worse, not better. Forgiveness does not necessarily include full reconciliation and choosing to entrust yourself to someone so caustic. There is no guilt in maintaining distance and I encourage you to step off any obligation train you may have yourself on. God knows your limits. Your trust issues are addressed by going to our healing God, not to a caustic sadistic ex. I think it is ok to ask your wife to stop, to honor where you are with this and support a different path than the one she "thinks" will work. I believe she is misinformed, heart is in the right place, but misinformed all the same.


I do not think bfree's wife in unusual in this regard. I know others, including myself, heard emasculating, cruel remarks both pre and post discovery.
This is what I was trying to get at in explaining that the sex with outsiders is just the tip of the abuse iceberg and that is why I feel that many cheaters are disordered. They kee piling on the verbal and emotional abuse during and after the affair.
So, when I se a cheater sya that he or she treated his or her spouse okay and it was just the cheating itself that was the problem, I have my doubts. And ,if it is true about this particular cheater, I do not feel it represents what goes on in a lot of these cheating situations.
We all know about cognitive dissonance and the motivation of the cheater to demonize the BS. That takes the form, many times, of abusing the BS.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## Wazza

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



Zanne said:


> Wow! Welcome to TAM therapy, bfree!
> 
> I'm afraid that I am on your wife's side. I think she is trying to exorcise this demon from your past by showing you how human she is. Your ex is just a fallen person. She holds no control over you unless you let her. The problem is, you loved her. Easier said than done. It may seem weird to care so much about a time in your past, but I think this is the way our brains work. Your brain is still trying to file this one away, but there are missing pieces. Talk therapy may help. I hope you find the peace you are searching for, bfree. You deserve it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not about love it's trust. Bfree's spelled it out already. 



bfree said:


> Sometimes certain experiences are so strong that they become life changing. They change your very core. I don't think I'll ever trust anyone completely ever again and even finding a way to forgive my ex... and myself... is not going to change that.


This is not some inner demon, simply recognition of a very sad truth. If one person you love can do this to you, so can another. You learn to live with it.

Bfree, if it helps, I tend to think about the boundaries within which I can trust people, instead of just "can I trust them?"


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Zanne said:


> Wow! Welcome to TAM therapy, bfree!
> 
> I'm afraid that I am on your wife's side. I think she is trying to exorcise this demon from your past by showing you how human she is. Your ex is just a fallen person. She holds no control over you unless you let her. The problem is, you loved her. Easier said than done. It may seem weird to care so much about a time in your past, but I think this is the way our brains work. Your brain is still trying to file this one away, but there are missing pieces. Talk therapy may help. I hope you find the peace you are searching for, bfree. You deserve it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Human, but a very unsafe one.... one wise to stay away from. 

Just like your ex....


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Maxo said:


> I do not think bfree's wife in unusual in this regard. I know others, including myself, heard emasculating, cruel remarks both pre and post discovery.
> This is what I was trying to get at in explaining that the sex with outsiders is just the tip of the abuse iceberg and that is why I feel that many cheaters are disordered. They kee piling on the verbal and emotional abuse during and after the affair.
> So, when I se a cheater sya that he or she treated his or her spouse okay and it was just the cheating itself that was the problem, I have my doubts. And ,if it is true about this particular cheater, I do not feel it represents what goes on in a lot of these cheating situations.
> We all know about cognitive dissonance and the motivation of the cheater to demonize the BS. That takes the form, many times, of abusing the BS.


I'm in complete agreement. Abusive attitudes start long before it surfaces in behavior, which is what I believe you are saying.


----------



## bandit.45

Maxo said:


> I do not think bfree's wife in unusual in this regard. I know others, including myself, heard emasculating, cruel remarks both pre and post discovery.
> .


Go back and read his story again. bfree's exWW basically called over a group of her lovers and they, as a group, kicked him out of his own home...

I'm sure she pulled a train on them immediately afterwards. 

She was hideous. Far worse than the norm.


----------



## bandit.45

Zanne said:


> Wow! Welcome to TAM therapy, bfree!
> 
> I'm afraid that I am on your wife's side. I think she is trying to exorcise this demon from your past by showing you how human she is. *Your ex is just a fallen person.* She holds no control over you unless you let her. The problem is, you loved her. Easier said than done. It may seem weird to care so much about a time in your past, but I think this is the way our brains work. Your brain is still trying to file this one away, but there are missing pieces. Talk therapy may help. I hope you find the peace you are searching for, bfree. You deserve it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Bull. 

She is far beyond that. I'm sorry, I disagree.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Go back and read his story again. bfree's exWW basically called over a group of her lovers and they, as a group, kicked him out of his own home...
> 
> I'm sure she pulled a train on them immediately afterwards.
> 
> She was hideous. Far worse than the norm.


Thus the word sadistic.


----------



## Zanne

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*

.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



Zanne said:


> Yes, of course it's about trust. I admit that I still have my own trust issues. I didn't mean to imply that bfree is wrestling with his own inner demons. He has said that he tried to make amends with his past after he became sober. That's part of many treatment programs. My thoughts were that his drug and alcohol abuse covered up his feelings and he never fully worked through that horrible time in his life.
> 
> I've read some interesting theories about the way our brains work. Our brains can sort through all of our daily interactions with amazing efficiency. But sometimes it doesn't know what to do with certain events, particularly traumatic events.
> 
> I've read that it is better to face the pain and accept it in order to move on. Covering up the trauma with prescription and/or illegal drugs and alcohol delays the process. If we work through it, our brains can figure out where to put those thoughts and file them away.
> 
> I know it's really not as simple as all of that and I don't know if any of this applies to bfree's situation. It's just my ramblings.


I agree with facing it and not covering it up. 

What I would not do is "face it" by re-exposing myself to the perpetrator of the original trauma and risk new trauma.

I would face it in healthy, safe zones and with healthy safe people.


----------



## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> Go back and read his story again. bfree's exWW basically called over a group of her lovers and they, as a group, kicked him out of his own home...
> 
> I'm sure she pulled a train on them immediately afterwards.
> 
> She was hideous. Far worse than the norm.


Good lord! I don't know how he isn't serving two consecutive.

I would have been arrested for multiple murders that day. Ugh!:surprise:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



Blossom Leigh said:


> I agree with facing it and not covering it up.
> 
> What I would not do is "face it" by re-exposing myself to the perpetrator of the original trauma and risk new trauma.
> 
> I would face it in healthy, safe zones and with healthy safe people.


That is ok in a fear that is illogical. This one isn't.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

*Re: Myth: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;They Come Crawling Back&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;*



Wazza said:


> That is ok in a fear that is illogical. This one isn't.


Correct.

And one thing I learned in dealing with my mother that once I had the awareness of the depth of her abuse that going forward if I chose to put myself in her presence then I would be choosing to self abuse. It would be the same for bfree and his wife shouldn't be asking him to do that. Now if she and some church friends want to reach out to her in the name of the Lord, that is one thing, but leave bfree out of it. Having him involved serves no purpose. His healing will come another way. And I do encourage him to seek ways not to hold his wife hostage to his past. BUT he also needs to make sure it's not HER holding herself to it and projecting it onto him. ohhhhh the complex webs we weave.  Just assess it well bfree.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## bandit.45

Zanne said:


> You are giving her too much credit. By making her out to be a monster, she has more power. *She's just a pitiful human being*. That's all. He is better off without her in his life. He cannot believe anything she ever said to him because she has proven that she is not a nice person. But you never know, as an old woman she could find Jesus and repent. Stranger things have happened.



So was Jeffrey Dahmer. 

God is the ONLY one who could save her. There are wayward wives who do what they do because the feel it is necessary due to having abusive or unloving spouses, like you do...

... and then there truly bad people, like her. And I'm sorry Zanne, but you underestimate her evil. 

The Devil has never done half the evil that humans have.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yes, but you don't recognize the need for the blood of Christ by not calling evil evil. Christ himself never minced words. And there are reprobates. To turn a blind eye to that is unwise.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## Maxo

bandit.45 said:


> Go back and read his story again. bfree's exWW basically called over a group of her lovers and they, as a group, kicked him out of his own home...
> 
> I'm sure she pulled a train on them immediately afterwards.
> 
> She was hideous. Far worse than the norm.


My XW did something similar. Not exactly but not too far off. Sadism is right.


----------



## bandit.45

Maxo said:


> My XW did something similar. Not exactly but not too far off. Sadism is right.


When are you going to tell us your story?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

bandit.45 said:


> How many times on the CWI threads do you read a well-meaning poster say something to the affect that "...once the OM/OW dumps your WS, your WS will realize they are about to lose everything and come _crawling back _to beg you to forgive them.
> 
> ...
> 
> My question to you all is...are we doing a disservice to the newbie BSs who come on to TAM asking for our advice when we tell them something like this?


I must be reading other bits of TAM. I don't think I've seen that said on TAM. Far more common is the "get a lawyer now, then a divorce" (followed by, get a VAR, do the 180, don't be gaslighted or trickle truthed.)

which is reason advice.

And you're right, people don't change their behaviour until they've "been in the ashes" or "had the trainwreck". Why should they?


----------



## Maxo

bandit.45 said:


> When are you going to tell us your story?


It is mundane. Nothing special,just cheating,gaslighting,verbal and emotional abuse etc. Pretty standard cheater fare that is oft recited in our stories.


----------



## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> Go back and read his story again. bfree's exWW basically called over a group of her lovers and they, as a group, kicked him out of his own home...
> 
> I'm sure she pulled a train on them immediately afterwards.
> 
> She was hideous. Far worse than the norm.


Wow so it seems she is getting everything she deserves and should be left to rot..she's earned that...


----------



## Maxo

I am really not sure thes disordered type suffer all that much. They do not seem to feel guilt,shame or remorse. I know many are alone toward the end of their lives,once their looks fade.
Something is badly off in them. I cannot understand them but know enough to stay away.


----------



## Acoa

Maxo said:


> I am really not sure thes disordered type suffer all that much. They do not seem to feel guilt,shame or remorse. I know many are alone toward the end of their lives,once their looks fade.
> Something is badly off in them. I cannot understand them but know enough to stay away.


Agreed, they know what guilt, shame and remorse is. But only as a tool to use on other people to get what they want. A sociopath would be an extreme example. These types of cheaters fall on a spectrum leaning that direction. Not all, but some of the worst examples for sure.


----------



## NotEasy

Maxo said:


> I am really not sure thes disordered type suffer all that much. They do not seem to feel guilt,shame or remorse. I know many are alone toward the end of their lives,once their looks fade.
> Something is badly off in them. I cannot understand them but know enough to stay away.





Acoa said:


> Agreed, they know what guilt, shame and remorse is. But only as a tool to use on other people to get what they want. A sociopath would be an extreme example. These types of cheaters fall on a spectrum leaning that direction. Not all, but some of the worst examples for sure.


I second that. Those far along the spectrum probably don't feel guilt, shame or remorse. Otherwise how could they continue doing what they do. So they will never come crawling back.

I have seen hints that those only part way along the spectrum sometimes feel great remorse, shame or guilt at the bad things they have done. So they might come crawling back. And if they do what is the best response? forgive or run? Temporary insanity I would like to be able to forgive, but only if I thought they were now 'normal'. Stepping back into the lions cage is self abuse.

For some cases here I think the best advice for BS is something like "They might come crawling back, so keep your running shoes ready."


----------



## bandit.45

I hate telling betrayed spouses not to hope for apology or repentance. It seems like there has been a lot of very cruel waywards out there running amok lately. 

I found an excellent article that you all may benefit from reading. It is religious in nature, but if you get around the Biblical aspects there is a lot of practical wisdom here.

Are There Times When We Shouldn't Forgive? - Marriage Missions International


----------



## 2ntnuf

I believe a woman has made up her mind that she does not love her spouse long before she has had an ongoing affair.

I believe she made up her mind before she started seriously talking to other men like she was ready to date, curious, interested, horny, and/or aroused by him. This is long before sex. 

Therefore, I believe the best chance for a successful reconciliation is before the affair, and best attempted before she gets flirty with other men. 

Teaching men to recognize the signs and realize their marriage is in jeopardy is very important. Also, teaching men how to learn to look at themselves with humility and their wives with perspective is very important. 

How? Don't know. 

Self awareness and really listening to her and paying attention to if our actions follow our words is vital.


----------



## EI

2ntnuf said:


> I believe a woman has made up her mind that she does not love her spouse long before she has had an ongoing affair.
> 
> I believe she made up her mind before she started seriously talking to other men like she was ready to date, curious, interested, horny, and/or aroused by him. This is long before sex.
> 
> Therefore, I believe the best chance for a successful reconciliation is before the affair, and best attempted before she gets flirty with other men.
> 
> Teaching men to recognize the signs and realize their marriage is in jeopardy is very important. Also, teaching men how to learn to look at themselves with humility and their wives with perspective is very important.
> 
> How? Don't know.
> 
> Self awareness and really listening to her and paying attention to if our actions follow our words is vital.


*Quoted for Truth!!!*


----------



## Truthseeker1

2ntnuf said:


> I believe a woman has made up her mind that she does not love her spouse long before she has had an ongoing affair.
> 
> I believe she made up her mind before she started seriously talking to other men like she was ready to date, curious, interested, horny, and/or aroused by him. This is long before sex.
> 
> Therefore, I believe the best chance for a successful reconciliation is before the affair, and best attempted before she gets flirty with other men.
> 
> Teaching men to recognize the signs and realize their marriage is in jeopardy is very important. Also, teaching men how to learn to look at themselves with humility and their wives with perspective is very important.
> 
> How? Don't know.
> 
> Self awareness and really listening to her and paying attention to if our actions follow our words is vital.


Good relationship advice but the aggrieved wife still makes the choice to cheat and that goes straight to character - she did have the option to leave with her honor and dignity...once she cheats she loses that...


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## 2ntnuf

Truthseeker1 said:


> Good relationship advice but the aggrieved wife still makes the choice to cheat and that goes straight to character - she did have the option to leave with her honor and dignity...once she cheats she loses that...


Absolutely.

Men must learn the signs and how to figure out what is going on long before cheating. If we do, then we likely will be able to make an informed decision rather than having guilty hindsight, resentment and anger issues. 

I just don't know if that is possible or how to do it. Wish I did. I'd share.


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## LucasJackson

I've read many stories where the two cheaters do leave their families, ride off into the sunset, and are married for the rest of their lives. I have read quite a few of those tales. Of course they left a trail of victims in their wake but as long as they were happy, that was all that mattered to them.


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## CantBelieveThis

LucasJackson said:


> I've read many stories where the two cheaters do leave their families, ride off into the sunset, and are married for the rest of their lives. I have read quite a few of those tales. Of course they left a trail of victims in their wake but as long as they were happy, that was all that mattered to them.


I have seen more than one situation where that has been the case, I don't know if I believe all that stuff about cheating relationships doom to failure, another urban legend kinda deal I think...but then again the original marriages in the cases I seem were a total mess with abuse and wat not so who knows...
It's becoming clear, to me at least, that the only thing becoming more rare are the normal healthy life long marriages...maybe it's under extinction, or it never existed to begin with.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## LucasJackson

CantBelieveThis said:


> I have seen more than one situation where that has been the case, I don't know if I believe all that stuff about cheating relationships doom to failure, another urban legend kinda deal I think...but then again the original marriages in the cases I seem were a total mess with abuse and wat not so who knows...
> It's becoming clear, to me at least, that the only thing becoming more rare are the normal healthy life long marriages...maybe it's under extinction, or it never existed to begin with.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I think that our built in desire for justice would like us to believe that all cheaters get their comeuppance. That's just not true. We'd also love to believe that they all wise up and beg the BS's to take them back. Also not true. Many many of them find someone they love more. A better match for them. They leave their family and marry their AP. Many are much happier and never give their BS a second thought. That's the real world. It happens.


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## CantBelieveThis

totally agree....and its sad man....

and you know maybe I will open a separate thread on this but I was thinking, say your W or H comes to you and tells you they are going to meet up with another partner and have sex with them and what not, or also say their affair is discovered by you and your CS decides to keep it going....there is no legal recourse of any kind that I am aware of that can stop your CS from continuing to be with the AP and be sexual with them....

I mean the only thing you can do legally is file for divorce.....because legally you cant really throw them out of the home (my xWW knew this and even told me, she wasnt stupid) , and is not like you can ring up law enforcement either and tell then your W or H is with another lover....and have LE make then stop.....crazy isnt it??

yes i mean you can threaten them or beat the crap out of the AP but thats not legal recourse, and can land you in jail....so to me I see this as the biggest horse sh1t ever....what kinda of silly legal binding contract is "marriage" if it can be broken at any given time with absolutely no legal recourse to stop its violation, unless its a divorce? I dont think I have ever heard of such ackward @ss nonsense like this...or am I missing something?


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## LucasJackson

@CantBelieveThis, yep, infidelity is not illegal in any way. Adulterers used to be shamed by society but considering how narcissistic western nations have become, today the cheater is met with "you only live once, you have to do what's best for you and your happiness. What about the children and the betrayed spouse you say? Not the cheater's problem. They can go find their own happiness like the cheater has done.

Even if the cheater's affair fizzles out and they come back, the BS has to know where they stand. They were a "safe" landing zone while the cheater figures out their next move. If another "better" opportunity comes along, they'll bolt again.

Even the legendary deified "recovered" cheater that we all adore on this site has said that she won't cheat again because now her husband is doing what he needs to do to fulfill her needs. Do you see a problem with that statement? She's really saying that the minute he's not fulfilling those needs, off she'll go again. Anything illegal about it? Nope.


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## 2ntnuf

> Even the legendary deified "recovered" cheater that we all adore on this site has said that she won't cheat again because now her husband is doing what he needs to do to fulfill her needs. Do you see a problem with that statement? She's really saying that the minute he's not fulfilling those needs, off she'll go again. Anything illegal about it? Nope.


Yep...(I meant I agree with you)

Also, along with not having any recourse in the effort to stop the affair, other than exposure and the 180 coupled with divorce, there is something else.

If your WS decides she wants sex with you, you pretty much have to or she can claim, after some time and no sex(I think it's a year with less than twelve encounters with her husband) file for divorce for neglect.

Yeah, you have to be a cuckold by law.


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## bandit.45

CantBelieveThis said:


> totally agree....and its sad man....
> 
> and you know maybe I will open a separate thread on this but I was thinking, say your W or H comes to you and tells you they are going to meet up with another partner and have sex with them and what not, or also say their affair is discovered by you and your CS decides to keep it going....there is no legal recourse of any kind that I am aware of that can stop your CS from continuing to be with the AP and be sexual with them....
> 
> I mean the only thing you can do legally is file for divorce.....because legally you cant really throw them out of the home (my xWW knew this and even told me, she wasnt stupid) , and is not like you can ring up law enforcement either and tell then your W or H is with another lover....and have LE make then stop.....crazy isnt it??
> 
> yes i mean you can threaten them or beat the crap out of the AP but thats not legal recourse, and can land you in jail....so to me I see this as the biggest horse sh1t ever....what kinda of silly legal binding contract is "marriage" if it can be broken at any given time with absolutely no legal recourse to stop its violation, unless its a divorce? I dont think I have ever heard of such ackward @ss nonsense like this...or am I missing something?


Correct. 

Remember LuvMyJava?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

LucasJackson said:


> Even the legendary deified "recovered" cheater that we all adore on this site has said that she won't cheat again because now her husband is doing what he needs to do to fulfill her needs. Do you see a problem with that statement? She's really saying that the minute he's not fulfilling those needs, off she'll go again. Anything illegal about it? Nope.


Wow, @LucasJackson, we have a legendary deified "recovered" cheater that we all adore on this site? I don't visit TAMland very often, these days, but I hate that I missed that. I'd love to know what it takes to reach that kind of FWS status 'round these parts. 

Though, I'm only speculating, of course, I would bet that she didn't say that she won't cheat again because now her husband is doing what he needs to do to fulfill her needs. I would bet that she's not _really_ saying that if he's not fulfilling those needs, off she'll go again. Maybe you should go back and re-read what she _really_ did say.

If I were to venture a guess, I would say that she likely credited her BS's willingness to finally step up to the plate and acknowledge his own pre-A failures in the marriage, along with her willingness to own her decision to betray her spouse and family by having an A, (prior to getting the divorce that she had already told her BS and children that she intended to get, two years later, when their youngest son would graduate from high school, and their special needs son would finally be placed in his own residence, with a live-in caregiver) as the starting point from which they were able to begin working together on their reconciliation. A reconciliation that her BS seemed very eager to work on, at that point.

I think we need to be very mindful about our tendency to project our own assumptions onto other people's stories and then restating them as facts.


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## drifting on

EI said:


> Wow, @LucasJackson, we have a legendary deified "recovered" cheater that we all adore on this site? I don't visit TAMland very often, these days, but I hate that I missed that. I'd love to know what it takes to reach that kind of FWS status 'round these parts.
> 
> Though, I'm only speculating, of course, I would bet that she didn't say that she won't cheat again because now her husband is doing what he needs to do to fulfill her needs. I would bet that she's not _really_ saying that if he's not fulfilling those needs, off she'll go again. Maybe you should go back and re-read what she _really_ did say.
> 
> If I were to venture a guess, I would say that she likely credited her BS's willingness to finally step up to the plate and acknowledge his own pre-A failures in the marriage, along with her willingness to own her decision to betray her spouse and family by having an A, (prior to getting the divorce that she had already told her BS and children that she intended to get, two years later, when their youngest son would graduate from high school, and their special needs son would finally be placed in his own residence, with a live-in caregiver) as the starting point from which they were able to begin working together on their reconciliation. A reconciliation that her BS seemed very eager to work on, at that point.
> 
> I think we need to be very mindful about our tendency to project our own assumptions onto other people's stories and then restating them as facts.




EI

It takes a strong person who has been cheated on to self reflect on the problems they brought into the marriage. I know this was difficult for me, I thought, no, my wife cheated, not me I don't need to work on anything, I didn't do anything wrong. This is why I waited six months to make a decision. My EMOTIONS were consuming my decisions and actions, this is not the time to make an important decision. 

After the six months my emotions had kind of calmed to where I could think more clearly. I now know the affair is on my wife, but I owned half of the marriage problems. I wasn't perfect, I had things that I needed to fix. This is one of the most difficult aspects for the betrayed spouse, you have to separate the affair and marriage. My wife owned her bad choice, it was my time to own my bad choices also. Once the betrayed can begin to separate these aspects in the process of reconciliation can the forgiveness aspect begin. 

To say I am now the husband wanted all along, meets her needs more then ever isn't a situation that she cheated and gets all she wants. Instead it's I'm a better person now, I've fixed or healed the problems I brought, I have grown as a person to be a better partner in this marriage or a different relationship. I am not forced to stay with my wife, I can leave any time I choose, but I chose to reconcile. Reconciling this marriage was the best choice for me, for many different reasons. One of those reasons is so I am a better person in my life. This makes me a better all around person. 

Infidelity is complex and difficult, it's not just one spouse had an affair, or had meaningless sex, the lives of the two married people. The complexities of those people, the who they are, what they are, their morals, beliefs, what makes them live with peace and happiness. We are each our own person, we are all fallible and human, we make bad choices, but if we do wrong we are measured by how we try to atone for those bad choices.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Bump for New Year. 

Anyone on TAM have a wayward who showed some contrition and came back to the marriage?


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## Red Sonja

bandit.45 said:


> Bump for New Year.
> 
> Anyone on TAM have a wayward who showed some contrition and came back to the marriage?


No contrition but my XH is suddenly contacting me in the last month or so wanting to visit and talk. He's "lonely and having a hard time" because his girlfriend dumped him.

:slap:


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## 2ntnuf

Be careful Red.


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## Andy1001

Red Sonja said:


> No contrition but my XH is suddenly contacting me in the last month or so wanting to visit and talk. He's "lonely and having a hard time" because his girlfriend dumped him.
> 
> :slap:


You must feel like you won the lottery.


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## sokillme

Why would anyone want them back. Why would you want a bucket with a hole in it, why would you want a car without an engine. Once you understand how useless almost all cheaters are to a relationship the less they really matter. If you are in a relationship with a cheater unless you yourself are a a very horrible person, you can almost always ALWAYS do much better.


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## drifting on

sokillme said:


> Why would anyone want them back. Why would you want a bucket with a hole in it, why would you want a car without an engine. Once you understand how useless almost all cheaters are to a relationship the less they really matter. If you are in a relationship with a cheater unless you yourself are a a very horrible person, you can almost always ALWAYS do much better.




We are all different, we aren't all wired the same, some of us make the correct decision and some don't. Some waywards are narcissists and will never truly see what damage they have inflicted on their families. But some do understand how wrong their choice was. Some actually get it. I can think of quite a few here actually, who in my opinion, get it. It all comes down to one, the betrayed, what can they overcome and what they can't overcome. It's obvious that you would divorce, but that may not be the best choice for others. 

To say you can always do better, maybe not, you get no guarantee in any relationship. How do you know you are going to hook up with someone who has already cheated? How do you know that person isn't a narcissist and you'll be their third marriage. Truth is we don't know, you are dealing with a human being that could be capable of many things you never imagined. I usually in a way agree with many of your posts, but I don't think you can "always" do better. Just my opinion.


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## sokillme

drifting on said:


> How do you know you are going to hook up with someone who has already cheated? How do you know that person isn't a narcissist and you'll be their third marriage. Truth is we don't know, you are dealing with a human being that could be capable of many things you never imagined. I usually in a way agree with many of your posts, but I don't think you can "always" do better. Just my opinion.


Just being in a relationship with someone who hasn't abused YOU is better in my opinion. Actually being alone and not being with someone who has abused you is better, again in my opinion. I never believed I had to be in a relationship to have a fulfilling life, and for a long time I wasn't. Now that I am married is my life more fulfilling? absolutely, however if my wife cheated on me it would no longer be. 

Plus read around on these boards, the people who move on are almost always happier then the people who stayed. At least the BS who stayed. The people who stay suffer for the rest of their lives to some extent. Even if they do finally get over it, it takes years and years. They almost all say they don't trust their SO's anymore, and for logical reason. These could be years spent on building a new relationship with someone that could be trusted.

The people who move on mostly find other loves and there WS is a distant memory that has very little power over them anymore. You meet someone new in a few years and all the power your WS had over you is gone forever, even if the new person doesn't work out. I know because I lived it. I think for most finding new love makes the power that your ex's infidelity had in your life go away. Then after experience this you are a much stronger person for it.

Anyway I have never been a "the devil you know" kind of guy. Maybe there is an Angel around the corner just waiting for you, and you are holding on to this crappy devil.


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## TaDor

If the WS wants true R... It's still up to the BS what is right for them. There are many variables that people should consider. 

No matter what, kids play a factor. But a cheater with no kids involved and before marriage (as we've seen recently) it's easier to move on. The recent story from the 35yr old woman whose boyfriend moved from East coast to be with her. He kept the EA going thousands of miles away and other childish things that made him a bad catch.
If it was a stupid drunk one night stand and he came to her begging... Then the chances for R would have been a lot higher.

If my wayward came begging and had the same issues as before, I wouldn't have taken her back. Today she is a better "wife", mother, person, than the time before. So far, the drinking is under control.. she and everyone proud of that. She started drinking at 14. When we dated and married (but not when pregnant) she'd drink several times a day... Months before the affair, it was almost daily. During the affair it was morning and nightly drinking.

Being sober and enjoying life has been a huge difference. We didn't drink or go out on NYE... 

It's work to do R. But so is marriage. 

We communicate better today than ever before... And with that, we still learn more about each other by doing so. 

When there is violence or continued lying going on... Don't R. Everything must be on the table.

She has had to apologize to her family for the drama she has caused, lying to them as well. Like saying it wasn't an affair and I was being controlling, a jerk, etc. They were SO MAD at me for accusing her of cheating and exposing her to everyone.

The affair sucked big time. But I'm a better person from it. She is a better woman from the lessons. Our son has better parents who are together and working on staying that way. 

I'm thankful for the wife I have today. I would have likely divorced her anyway without the affair because of her drinking and drug use. 

I enjoyed dating around and such. I'd say she only had a few more weeks left before I would not have given her a chance.

She has done a lot to prove herself. I've been honest and told her that I doubt she'll ever reach 100% trust with me. Is it possible?

And with betrayal, do we ever trust another human being again? 

I believe in divorce as has been said by others here. The WS can prove themselves later.


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## She'sStillGotIt

About the LAST thing on earth I'd *accept* - or desire - is a cheating spouse who left me to be with their 'soul mate,' got dumped (or found out that life with their soul mate wasn't exactly the Nirvana they were expecting), then suddenly decided they wanted to come back home.

When BS's post about this happening to them, I_ never _encourage them to wait around for their cheater to come crawling back to them. I do warn them that sometimes they'll be an *option* or *Plan B *for said cheater if their "happily ever after'' with the affair partner blows up in their face and suddenly, the WS is sweet talking the BS looking to come back home. 

I just see NO self respect or pride at all in a BS who'd take back someone of this low caliber. :frown2:


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## drifting on

sokillme said:


> Just being in a relationship with someone who hasn't abused YOU is better in my opinion. Actually being alone and not being with someone who has abused you is better, again in my opinion. I never believed I had to be in a relationship to have a fulfilling life, and for a long time I wasn't. Now that I am married is my life more fulfilling? absolutely, however if my wife cheated on me it would no longer be.
> 
> Plus read around on these boards, the people who move on are almost always happier then the people who stayed. At least the BS who stayed. The people who stay suffer for the rest of their lives to some extent. Even if they do finally get over it, it takes years and years. They almost all say they don't trust their SO's anymore, and for logical reason. These could be years spent on building a new relationship with someone that could be trusted.
> 
> The people who move on mostly find other loves and there WS is a distant memory that has very little power over them anymore. You meet someone new in a few years and all the power your WS had over you is gone forever, even if the new person doesn't work out. I know because I lived it. I think for most finding new love makes the power that your ex's infidelity had in your life go away. Then after experience this you are a much stronger person for it.
> 
> Anyway I have never been a "the devil you know" kind of guy. Maybe there is an Angel around the corner just waiting for you, and you are holding on to this crappy devil.





Being with a person who abused you is different from being betrayed. Just my opinion. Being alone is up to the individual, I have several friends who have never married nor wanted any part of marriage. To each their own. If your wife does cheat on you, you are correct that even if you reconcile the marriage will be different. But if you choose reconciliation, why would you want the old marriage back? There are things from your old marriage that you do want, but you need to grow as a person to cultivate those things to be better then before. If we use communication as an example, you have to change to communicate in a better way, be more specific and not withhold your true feelings. If you had playful banter in your old marriage, you may want that to remain in the new marriage. Both spouses have to come to an agreement to communicate no matter if pleasurable, difficult, or even if you feel the other may get hurt, communication is key along with the tone of what is said. 

I have read mostly the private and coping with infidelity sections. These two sections pertain to me what I need from TAM. Some admittedly have said they could never reconcile, some say they chose reconciliation, and some divorce for reasons combined from both. Infidelity is a beast, along with divorce and reconciliation. None of it is easy, and if it is, rug sweeping comes to mind. So in essence reconciliation does take years, as does healing, as does we all heal at our own pace. It takes time to rebuild trust in your spouse, it takes time to be vulnerable to your spouse. Trust most likely will never be what it was for me, but then again I blindly trusted my wife which was wrong of me to do. You could possibly try to have a new relationship with someone new, but they may also commit adultery, you never know. 

Power of a wayward spouse is actually given by the betrayed spouse. My wife has no power over me, I chose to allow her to have power. This is something I've learned a great deal about in individual therapy. I give the power to bs depressed during the months of my wife's affair. It's not her placing power over me to be depressed, I gave it that power by choice. Because of individual therapy I just had the best holiday season I've had in a long time, and it's because I chose that my wife's affair timing would not keep me down. 

An angel may be waiting around the corner or me, or the devil could be waiting, but honestly I think I'm with my angel now. I can't say I would be better off divorced, I didn't choose that route to really know, I can say that because I've grown and my wife has grown we are better as a couple. We have both worked very hard to get to this point, and little by little we take strides to recover fully.


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## TDSC60

TaDor said:


> She has done a lot to prove herself. I've been honest and told her that I doubt she'll ever reach 100% trust with me. Is it possible?
> 
> I am older and more cynical. I believe that NO ONE can be trusted 100%. That is why lots of BSs delay investigation in the face of red flag after red flag. They simply cannot accept that their spouse is capable of cheating.


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## sokillme

For me after being cheated on complete trust wasn't a factor because I will never trust anyone completely again. I believe in trust but verify. If my wife cheated I would be surprised but not shocked. You never no. 

If it happened my feeling is no one gets to treat me with such disrespect and continue to be in a relationship with me. It just isn't worth it to me, their loss, I believe I am a good catch for any woman. I have watched family and friends move on from cheating and they all are better for it. I was too. I really believe there are two types of people in the world those who can cheat and those who can't. As you can tell I don't put much value in people who cheat as far as romantic relationships go. I mean it when I say they are useless in a relationship as far as what I value in one. I have very close friends and family and am quite content.

I come from a very rough childhood and the most valuable thing that my marriage provides me with is the feeling of emotional contentment and safety. Cheating would take away the very thing I love about it. I also have absolutely no doubt I could find that with someone else, and if not I would just be alone.


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## TaDor

@She'sStillGotIt : I'd still look at it on a case by case basis.

Unfortunately, as human beings we're all somewhat predictable. Medicated drugs and booze was a major factor on her side, my codependency and lack of communication was mine. Circumstances lead to our situation and from there - wife's actions and words were text-book cheating. People here predicted very well what she would do. And looking at the other posts, my wife did what others have done before or after her. Its like a club.

My wife didn't get dumped and crawl back to me. We had a good honest talk, but at that point - I put it on her to do the work and make things right. Her fog lifted enough to finally start seeing reality, then she did research on her own behavior which she THOUGHT I was just making up or whatever. She looked at the data, the articles on her own...

I think some people should leave bad marriages. And it is easier somewhat to go alone (and some should) but its work to do R. I told her IT WOULD BE WORK and if she is up to the challenge. She said yes, she was willing to finally DO the work.

So I gave her the last chance. We have a ways to go, but otherwise we are easily a stronger couple today than we were 12 months before her affair.

For the 3 of us (Our toddler son) - it was worth it. We are enjoying sharing our time with our son together, rather than the 2 months of co-parenting that we experienced... that is a huge difference.


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## bandit.45

............................


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## hewasneverreallymine

TaDor said:


> @She'sStillGotIt : I'd still look at it on a case by case basis.
> 
> Unfortunately, as human beings we're all somewhat predictable. Medicated drugs and booze was a major factor on her side, my codependency and lack of communication was mine. Circumstances lead to our situation and from there - wife's actions and words were text-book cheating. People here predicted very well what she would do. And looking at the other posts, my wife did what others have done before or after her. Its like a club.
> 
> My wife didn't get dumped and crawl back to me. We had a good honest talk, but at that point - I put it on her to do the work and make things right. Her fog lifted enough to finally start seeing reality, then she did research on her own behavior which she THOUGHT I was just making up or whatever. She looked at the data, the articles on her own...
> 
> I think some people should leave bad marriages. And it is easier somewhat to go alone (and some should) but its work to do R. I told her IT WOULD BE WORK and if she is up to the challenge. She said yes, she was willing to finally DO the work.
> 
> So I gave her the last chance. We have a ways to go, but otherwise we are easily a stronger couple today than we were 12 months before her affair.
> 
> For the 3 of us (Our toddler son) - it was worth it. We are enjoying sharing our time with our son together, rather than the 2 months of co-parenting that we experienced... that is a huge difference.




I'm soooo happy for you. Love is the answer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hewasneverreallymine

2ntnuf said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> Men must learn the signs and how to figure out what is going on long before cheating. If we do, then we likely will be able to make an informed decision rather than having guilty hindsight, resentment and anger issues.
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't know if that is possible or how to do it. Wish I did. I'd share.




The internet make it so easy to cheat! Cross talking through reviews, Live video cams, uberhorney.com, soooo many social sites and aps help people hide and encrypt! I hate it! Where is the beautiful love and desire NOT to step out? Marriage vows seem to be a joke now a days. So many people selfish! Cunning and baffling! Can I trust again? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hewasneverreallymine

2ntnuf said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> Men must learn the signs and how to figure out what is going on long before cheating. If we do, then we likely will be able to make an informed decision rather than having guilty hindsight, resentment and anger issues.
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't know if that is possible or how to do it. Wish I did. I'd share.




The internet makes it so easy to cheat! Cross talking through reviews, Live video cams, uberhorney.com, soooo many social sites and aps help people hide and encrypt! I hate it! Where is the beautiful love and desire NOT to step out? Marriage vows seem to be a joke now a days. So many people selfish! Cunning and baffling! Can I trust again? "I Am Love" stop stepping on me! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WasDecimated

2ntnuf said:


> I believe a woman has made up her mind that she does not love her spouse long before she has had an ongoing affair.
> 
> I believe she made up her mind before she started seriously talking to other men like she was ready to date, curious, interested, horny, and/or aroused by him. This is long before sex.
> 
> Therefore, I believe the best chance for a successful reconciliation is before the affair, and best attempted before she gets flirty with other men.
> 
> Teaching men to recognize the signs and realize their marriage is in jeopardy is very important. Also, teaching men how to learn to look at themselves with humility and their wives with perspective is very important.
> 
> How? Don't know.
> 
> Self awareness and really listening to her and paying attention to if our actions follow our words is vital.


I'm not buying this 100% for everyone's situation

My XWW didn't make up her mind until after she met OM. The changes in her happened after as well, not before. I don't think cheating ever crossed her mind. The emotional energy she focused on OM, was simultaneously removed from us and our marriage. This was when she began withdraw and in her mind, our marriage began to look less and less exciting to her. This change in her was instantly noticeable and I reacted immediately but was lied to and was consistently reassured that are marriage was great and she loved me. Which leads me to the second point.

I wasn't and am still not a mind reader. I don't know any men that are. When I sat down with my wife and ask her direct questions, I was expecting honest answers...right? When you have been lied to, mis-lead and actually told that they love you and everything is great within your marriage, you believe them. 

Self awareness, listening to her, and paying attention...seriously? I was the only one that was and frankly, this sounds like the blame-shifting I got after I found out the truth. She did what she did because she saw something new and sparkly, and she wanted it. It's that simple.

Some WW's are masters at hiding any signs and even better at lying. You can't defend against that until it's too late...all you can do is react.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Decimated said:


> I'm not buying this 100% for everyone's situation
> 
> My XWW didn't make up her mind until after she met OM. The changes in her happened after as well, not before. I don't think cheating ever crossed her mind. The emotional energy she focused on OM, was simultaneously removed from us and our marriage. This was when she began withdraw and in her mind, our marriage began to look less and less exciting to her. This change in her was instantly noticeable and I reacted immediately but was lied to and was consistently reassured that are marriage was great and she loved me. Which leads me to the second point.
> 
> If you are sure she is a liar, how do you know she didn't have her mind made up to find someone, before she met the guy she wanted to bed?
> 
> We can make up our mind to do something, like buy a car. Then, we start looking at different cars. Taking them for a test drive and getting estimates. Once we find the right one, we sign the papers.
> 
> 
> I wasn't and am still not a mind reader. I don't know any men that are. When I sat down with my wife and ask her direct questions, I was expecting honest answers...right? When you have been lied to, mis-lead and actually told that they love you and everything is great within your marriage, you believe them.
> 
> So, you don't know that she made up her mind after, but it's what a liar told you? In reference to the first paragraph.
> 
> I agree that I believed my second wife because I wanted to believe I didn't make a mistake. After all, I had my pride to deal with. Even when it was in front of my face, I let the memory go and told myself I must have just been mistaken. She loves me. She wouldn't do that. Hell, I couldn't. How could she? She isn't me. That's how.
> 
> 
> Self awareness, listening to her, and paying attention...seriously? I was the only one that was and frankly, this sounds like the blame-shifting I got after I found out the truth. She did what she did because she saw something new and sparkly, and she wanted it. It's that simple.
> 
> So, if you knew that you were weak and disbelieving, if you knew you needed proof and some talk with her would allow you to get that, you would have been better off? If so, then you would have been more self-aware and attempted to avoid going into denial, by using face to face conversation, like you state here that helped.
> 
> I don't give a reason for her or anyone's wife doing what she did. I just state how we might be able to help ourselves. Disagreeing is valid. I give you a response because I think you want it, and I don't mind helping out. Plus, you seem to have gotten some things confused.
> 
> Some WW's are masters at hiding any signs and even better at lying. You can't defend against that until it's too late...all you can do is react.


I agree. If you are saying that there is not one way to figure things out for everyone, I agree. If you are saying that my thoughts won't work for anyone, I disagree. 

I guess you figured there was one answer for everyone? No, there isn't. I wish there was. We and our spouses are all different, but in many ways we are also similar. 

Reacting is a hell of a way to live. Living proactively seems like a better choice. We do the best we can to live proactively. I'm pretty sure you do that now, since the divorce or you would not be here.


----------



## WasDecimated

2ntnuf, You seemed to think there was one answer for everyone. I was the one that disagreed with you. 

I was not looking for a response, especially one that picks apart every word that is out of context with the actual story. I don't have time to argue or explain to you things you did not experience...My marriage, XWW and subsequent divorce. You know nothing about my story or history as a husband and a father. I was stating and disagreed with the points you made based on my experience, what I went through and what I learned. I don't need you questioning my conclusions just because they are at odds with yours, and certainly don't appreciate being called weak and disbelieving. 

You might want to consider that a lot of people here have done tons of introspection since those dark days days, and may have learned something...based on their own experience. 

Oh, by the way. When you are blindsided, you have no choice but to be reactionary.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Decimated said:


> 2ntnuf, You seemed to think there was one answer for everyone. I was the one that disagreed with you.
> 
> I was not looking for a response, especially one that picks apart every word that is out of context with the actual story. I don't have time to argue or explain to you things you did not experience...My marriage, XWW and subsequent divorce. You know nothing about my story or history as a husband and a father. I was stating and disagreed with the points you made based on my experience, what I went through and what I learned. I don't need you questioning my conclusions just because they are at odds with yours, and certainly don't appreciate being called weak and disbelieving.
> 
> You might want to consider that a lot of people here have done tons of introspection since those dark days days, and may have learned something...based on their own experience.
> 
> Oh, by the way. When you are blindsided, you have no choice but to be reactionary.


Generally, what I posted is all you can do. What you can do specifically, or anyone else, depends on your personal knowledge, self growth and abilities. 

I guess you don't figure that everyone is different? That's why what I posted was so very general and vague. From there, you surely will have a better chance. I believe you will have a better chance the next time, if there is one. Simply due to the fact you have learned some things about yourself. That's just exactly what I posted above. 

I don't get it. Do you have a chip on your shoulder? 

If you didn't expect a response, why quote me? Why not just post your opinion without regard to anyone's previous posts? Others do that, too. I don't understand why they don't realize what they are doing, either, and then get angry when they get a response they don't like? 

Does everyone think they have a right to refute another without challenge? Odd as hell. 

I don't ask for you or anyone else to believe me solely or do as I say. If you feel or believe that, you are sadly mistaken, and maybe a little bit less self-confident than you thought?


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## TaDor

Decimated said:


> I'm not buying this 100% for everyone's situationShe did what she did because she saw something new and sparkly, and she wanted it. It's that simple.
> 
> Some WW's are masters at hiding any signs and even better at lying. You can't defend against that until it's too late...all you can do is react.


Yeah... and then they get MAD AT YOU for being angry and being controlling as to WHO they can see.

Mine also did the "you should have sex with other women" during this phase (Also typical) when I was trying to save our marriage in 2015.


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## bandit.45

See the attached link. This is a perfect example of the way most wayward spouses view the destruction of their marriage. Check out this so called "apology letter" from a WS to her husband.

http://lettertomyex.com/2015/10/12/to-my-ex-husband-i-want-you-to-love-again/


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## rockon

bandit.45 said:


> See the attached link. This is a perfect example of the way most wayward spouses view the destruction of their marriage. Check out this so called "apology letter" from a WS to her husband.
> 
> To my ex husband, I want you to love again | Letter To My Ex


What a bunch of sanctimonious, self indulgent bull****!

The entitlement dripping from that letter makes me nauseous.


----------



## Secondguessing

My stbex wife certainly didn't come crawling back and showed no remorse that I could see. The only thing I managed to get out of her was "I made a mistake." She didn't want to divorce so she did do things like turn over passwords and update on where she was whenever I wanted but definitely no crawling back. If anything, I did the crawling back; 2 months after I left I returned and with a day she threw that in my face and let me know I had come crawling back - in fact she used those very words.

I'm glad I read this post. I don't know what I'm second guessing. Leaving the POS has done wonders for my self-respect.


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## bandit.45

Reestablishing self-respect should be the ultimate goal of every betrayed spouse, whether the marriage is saved or not.


----------



## bandit.45

The way I feel is, each one of us comes into this world alone, and we leave this world alone. 

I don't want to be on my death bed and look back and say to myself "you should have respected yourself more...." "....why did you allow that person to disrespect you and in turn cause you to give up your self-respect?" There comes a point in all our lives where it's too late to go back and reestablish our self worth.


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## sokillme

bandit.45 said:


> The way I feel is, each one of us comes into this world alone, and we leave this world alone.
> 
> I don't want to be on my death bed and look back and say to myself "you should have respected yourself more...." "....why did you allow that person to disrespect you and in turn cause you to give up your self-respect?"


And then you look over and that person who disrespected you is still there, texting away on her phone why you are dying as WS do. 0

Sorry I couldn't resist. They make such good marriage partners.


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## Truthseeker1

bandit.45 said:


> See the attached link. This is a perfect example of the way most wayward spouses view the destruction of their marriage. Check out this so called "apology letter" from a WS to her husband.
> 
> To my ex husband, I want you to love again | Letter To My Ex


She should have just wrote "me me me me me me me me me and me" down the entire page because that is what her letter sounds like.

"All in all, just know.
I’m ok."

Buahahahahahahahahahahaha - two words for her - who cares

Some waywards really have a flair for the dramatic - dont they? They thrive on it which lead to cheating in the first place - "my inner child was in pain so I fell into my lovers arms" lol


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## MovingFrwrd

That was a tough letter to read. I tried to give the benefit of the doubt - maybe the H was a complete loser and abused her. I don't know - no background was given.

After I finished reading it, I was filled with anger towards her. I realize I'm projecting my own anger on her, but man. That sucked to read. It felt as though she was forgiving him for driving her to the affair, but yet still apologizing. Too confusing to make sense out of.

Probably shouldn't have read that.


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## Truthseeker1

MovingFrwrd said:


> That was a tough letter to read. I tried to give the benefit of the doubt - maybe the H was a complete loser and abused her. I don't know - no background was given.
> 
> After I finished reading it, I was filled with anger towards her. I realize I'm projecting my own anger on her, but man*. That sucked to read. It felt as though she was forgiving him for driving her to the affair, but yet still apologizing. Too confusing to make sense out of.*
> 
> Probably shouldn't have read that.


That letter was a nicely worded blame shifting letter..that is all it was.


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## bandit.45

Bump for further discussion.


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## Dyokemm

My cheating LTgf came back 8 months after DDay.....begged for us to try again.

Ummmm.....h*ll no!!

My first question to any BS wondering if their WS will come crawling back is this.....

Why would you want them to?

Life has enough troubles to deal with without throwing a traitorous partner into the mix too.


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## Taxman

I must say, that the experiences that say the most to me, are the ones where the wayward kicked their betrayed spouse to the curb, only to be similarly treated by their AP's. I have been party to two of these. In both cases, the wayward tried to worm their way back into their ex-spouse's good graces. My favorite was a king-of-the-pricks type of guy. He blew up his marriage for a girl, not woman, girl fifteen years his junior. He walked out on a great wife and child. I told him he was an ass. Everyone he knew said the same thing. His little girl decided that he was too old and not arm candy enough for her. Two months and done. He realizes that life alone ain't fun. So, he calls up the ex to see if she is willing to go on a date with him. She says that they'll meet for coffee. He arrives at the coffee shop, to find her with another guy. They explain to him that this is her new fiance. They will be getting married as soon as the ink on the divorce is dry. The other guy is good looking, invested in the wife and child. My client is basically told that his place in his family is no longer available. He lost it all. The other case was a woman who banged her boss. She did not move off for him, she wanted time alone, to see how life as a single woman would pan out. It did not. She was over forty, and looked every second of it. She thought that because a younger guy pursued her at work, that there would be plenty of guys that would want her. Wrong. Her date-book was not exactly filling up. So, she sucked up her pride, and called the ex. He horse laughed in her face. Why would he waste one second on a woman who was so obviously selfish and self serving that she tossed him aside for a fling, that was flung almost immediately. Her ex let her know that his value on the open market was very high, and as the betrayed husband, he had women throwing themselves at him. He said to her that he would never consider lowering his standards to be in her company. He wished her well, and told her to never bother contacting him again.


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## bandit.45

Bump


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## Marc878

Some come back some don't. 

The question anyone should ask themselves is if they do try and come back. What are you getting?

Tainted goods and that smell never quite goes away.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

My XW had the so called Walk Away Wife Syndrome...except instead of Walking Away she rode the C-k Carousal away. I don't see her ever apologizing or trying to get back together. We've both moved on to new partners and frankly I'd rather stick my **** into a blender than be with her again. When we do have to communicate she is as selfish as usual, so no, the wayward begging to come back isn't my experience either. Seems more myth than reality.


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## RubyRing

bandit.45 said:


> How many times on the CWI threads do you read a well-meaning poster say something to the affect that "...once the OM/OW dumps your WS, your WS will realize they are about to lose everything and come _crawling back _to beg you to forgive them.
> 
> All of the anecdotal evidence I have read and seen on TAM over the past four years tell a vastly different story of how waywards act. Very few are truly repentant. This fantasy that wayward spouses somehow, at some point, have an epiphany that they have destroyed their life by leaving their BS for another, and come "crawling back" just seems to me to be a pipe dream.
> 
> From what I have seen, 99% of the wayward spouses who do eventually break off their affairs and come back to their BSs do so only because they got thrown under the bus by their AP, and have no other options, and even then their willingness to work on reconciliation is conditional:
> 
> _"Well, I admit that having an affair was wrong and I'm sorry for hurting you, but I'm not sorry for having an affair because I needed something that you were not providing me..."_
> 
> _"Well, I am willing to work on our marriage, but I am still in love with my AP, so don't expect me to just act like your spouse for a long time. And I am not ready to have sex with you, so don't even ask."_
> 
> _"If I come back there are going to be some changes..."_
> 
> _"Why do we have to keep talking about this? Can't we just move on with our lives?"
> _
> And so on... ad nausea....
> 
> Now, to be clear, I'm not talking about WSs who get busted for having a one night stand. They are a different category. Usually when they get busted they fess up and beg forgiveness. I'm mainly referring to WSs who have been engaged in an ongoing affair and have developed a strong relationship with their AP.
> 
> These are the spouses who gave great thought to leaving their spouse and the marriage for the AP, engaged in a short to lengthy affair, and were found out at some point by their spouse, but determined to continue on with the affair knowing it would end their marriage.
> 
> My question to you all is...are we doing a disservice to the newbie BSs who come on to TAM asking for our advice when we tell them something like this?
> 
> It just seems like we are stetting them up for disappointment.



I have not read all 600 replies, but I do agree that there is a big diff between a one night stand, or even a casual short term fling, and an ongoing sexual and emotional affair where the WS plans on leaving the marriage to pursue a relationship with the AP. Yes, a person who exercise poor judgement, succumbs to temptation in a moment of weakness and has a one night stand that literally "means nothing" will usually beg for forgiveness if caught. Since they never left the relationship, they can't really come "crawling back", but if the BS leaves, they may go crawling and begging to their spouse to forgive them and work on reconciling the marriage. In this case, I think the remorse can be sincere, and it is up to the BS if they want to give reconciliation a chance.

However, if it was long term "love affair" and the WS blew up the marriage, any begging to come back is moot. There are ulterior motives, and likely they will cheat again. My second marriage ended in betrayal, by a string of affairs by my WS, in search of a woman to leave me for. He lived a double life for the last 10 years of our marriage, and due to his rotating shift work schedule and the fact the the woman he "fell in love with" was a co-worker, his affairs were fairly easy to hide, that plus the fact the I trusted him completely. He never came crawling back and begged for forgiveness, but he did want to stick around and have his cake and eat it too. I contributed to his "cake eating", but that a loooooong story for another thread for another day. Of course I fantasized about him realizing the error of his ways, and come crawling back to me, but that fantasy always ended with me telling him to go f*** himself. 

I am happy to say that I am happily re-married to a *WONDERFUL* man. I am also relieved that things did not work out with the AP, and my ex-hubby is married to someone else. Just happy that he married someone he met long after his AP dumped him (I had a hand in breaking them up, but again, long story for another thread). I did NOT want him to marry his AP, because then I would be forced to share all of my grown son's milestone with her, including grand children if we ever have any. My ex actually wanted to bring his AP to my son's college graduation ceremony. Luckily, she did not attend, for reasons unknown to me. I don't know if he came to his senses, and realized that would create an incredibly awkward situation for both me AND our son, if she declined because they were "off" in their on and off relationship, or if my son put his foot down and said that she was not welcome. (I never discussed the affair with my son, I am sure he has figured it out, but we never discuss it, because I don't want my son to be burdened with this, and I DO want him to have a good relationship with his Dad, despite what happened)

Anyway, any "advice" that the WS will come crawling back, I hope is given as a warning. No WS should be allowed back after that deep of a betrayal.


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## bandit.45

Bump


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## CantBelieveThis

the brother of a friend of mine, his wife just picked up and left him one day w no warning for some biker dude....
they had been married for 30y and have 5 grown up kids....
the BH just stayed home and she had no intent of ever coming back, neither of them had even filed for D. 
BH refused to leave his home, very religious good man but was suffering a lot, but seemingly ok and surrounded by his kids and family
well exactly one year to the day, he (the BH, my friends brother) drives up to where he found out his wife was living w the guy...he awaits them to arrive and shoots his wife boyfriend in the head in front of her....doesnt anything to his wife, drives away, gets into a police chase, loses control, crashes, starts shooting at the cops whom in turn shoot him dead.

I still cant believe it, this was a few months ago...they had a very religious background and marriage which was to look up to, always big family gatherings, beautiful 5 grown up kids with grand kids, no one would ever imagine she would do such a thing and neither a humble and religious man like him would have done that....

just goes to show what infidelity can do to someone, unfortunately it can lead to death in some cases


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## She'sStillGotIt

Sadly,so many BS's are* so* anxious to get their cheater back that they'll take him/her pretty much any way they can get them. If their WS comes back because their affair partner dumped them or because their AP's spouse is now making it impossible for them to continue their affair, these are NOT reasons to take a cheater back. 

I always try to impress upon these types that they're really nothing more than Plan B - an option - for their cheater, but their blind devotion won't let them see it and they insist their WS chose to come back and has a new-found love for them and their WS is oh, _SO_ remorseful. 

You see a lot of self-delusion with BS's. It's very sad.


----------



## Blondilocks

With some, I swear you can smell their fear through the screen.

Then you have the ones who are now deliriously happy and have fully reconciled and they never imagined that their marriage could be so good blah, blah, de ****ing blah. These are the ones I worry about should they get another d-day.


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## alte Dame

My own experience when I was younger was that they actually do come crawling back. Every man I dated whom I dumped for cheating was back at my door within a year of the 'dumping.' I got two marriage proposals from these God's gifts to womanhood. I imagine they thought they would dangle the ultimate prize - which they assumed was the old ball and chain - in order to show how they had changed.

The thing for me is that after the initial shock and panic of infidelity, after that period in which the betrayed just wants the cheater to take it all back, the WW just becomes unattractive. So many of the reconciliation threads are animated by this stage in the whole infidelity experience, which is that once the dust settles, the betrayed loses respect (and thus attraction) for the wayward. And then where is (s)he? In a badly patched up relationship with a person that looks unattractive and/or pathetic.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that they can, in fact, come crawling back. It may not be the majority, but when they do, it's typically a pretty rancid result in which the cheater is plan B, not the betrayed.


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## *Deidre*

Why would anyone want their spouse to come crawling back? It wouldn't be because they wanted to be back in the marriage. It would be due to being dumped by their lover and not wanting to be homeless. 

It isn't easy to develop self respect. But, I wouldn't take back a cheating spouse, especially a long term one. ''Crawling back'' isn't flattering, it's demeaning, tbh. Cheating spouses who come crawling back really isn't a victory. Not saying that couples can't or mustn't reconcile, but just seems like a lot of work to keep a jerk in your life.


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## hptessla

*Deidre* said:


> Why would anyone want their spouse to come crawling back? It wouldn't be because they wanted to be back in the marriage. It would be due to being dumped by their lover and not wanting to be homeless.
> 
> It isn't easy to develop self respect. But, I wouldn't take back a cheating spouse, especially a long term one. ''Crawling back'' isn't flattering, it's demeaning, tbh. Cheating spouses who come crawling back really isn't a victory. Not saying that couples can't or mustn't reconcile, but just seems like a lot of work to keep a jerk in your life.


I am currently talking 'reconciliation' with my WS wife. It has nothing to do with self respect from my perspective. I didn't lose MY self respect when she decided to have sex outside of our marriage. I actually continue to care about her. I would like to see her be able to come back, out of the chaos of a life without accepted boundaries or limitations. It hurts to think of her continuing on the road she decided to take. Yes we have children and that is part of any consideration; she is claiming that is her only real reason for reconciliation. Whatever. She has free will and I do too. I choose to exercise my free will to try and improve my life, my kids life and hers. If she rejects the offer that's what she has decided to do with her free will.

The self respect comes in, for me, in the form of avoiding bitterness or revenge. Neither are healthy or morally attractive in myself any more than in any one else. I took vows that weren't conditional. No I didn't foresee any of this when I took them but then I don't believe that she foresaw the AP when she took her vows either. Imagine if she had upheld her own vows despite the ease of obtaining an AP? I'm not clear how me abandoning my vows because of whatever justification she hands me (in her mind her affair was justified by something too) would be in any way indicative of self respect.


----------



## *Deidre*

hptessla said:


> I am currently talking 'reconciliation' with my WS wife. It has nothing to do with self respect from my perspective. I didn't lose MY self respect when she decided to have sex outside of our marriage. I actually continue to care about her. I would like to see her be able to come back, out of the chaos of a life without accepted boundaries or limitations. It hurts to think of her continuing on the road she decided to take. Yes we have children and that is part of any consideration; she is claiming that is her only real reason for reconciliation. Whatever. She has free will and I do too. I choose to exercise my free will to try and improve my life, my kids life and hers. If she rejects the offer that's what she has decided to do with her free will.
> 
> The self respect comes in, for me, in the form of avoiding bitterness or revenge. Neither are healthy or morally attractive in myself any more than in any one else. I took vows that weren't conditional. No I didn't foresee any of this when I took them but then I don't believe that she foresaw the AP when she took her vows either. Imagine if she had upheld her own vows despite the ease of obtaining an AP? I'm not clear how me abandoning my vows because of whatever justification she hands me (in her mind her affair was justified by something too) would be in any way indicative of self respect.


I can't speak for you, only for me. And I've read so many threads on here, where the BS takes back the WS, but the only one doing the reconciling, is the BS. I personally see no point in trying to force someone to love me, who doesn't. If my husband cheats on me someday, it isn't that I wouldn't be able to forgive. It would be that I don't want a man of that character in my life, anymore. 

Just be careful that you don't lose yourself, trying to ''save'' your wife and marriage.


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## farsidejunky

hptessla said:


> I am currently talking 'reconciliation' with my WS wife. It has nothing to do with self respect from my perspective. I didn't lose MY self respect when she decided to have sex outside of our marriage. I actually continue to care about her. I would like to see her be able to come back, out of the chaos of a life without accepted boundaries or limitations. It hurts to think of her continuing on the road she decided to take. Yes we have children and that is part of any consideration; she is claiming that is her only real reason for reconciliation. Whatever. She has free will and I do too. I choose to exercise my free will to try and improve my life, my kids life and hers. If she rejects the offer that's what she has decided to do with her free will.
> 
> The self respect comes in, for me, in the form of avoiding bitterness or revenge. Neither are healthy or morally attractive in myself any more than in any one else. I took vows that weren't conditional. No I didn't foresee any of this when I took them but then I don't believe that she foresaw the AP when she took her vows either. Imagine if she had upheld her own vows despite the ease of obtaining an AP? I'm not clear how me abandoning my vows because of whatever justification she hands me (in her mind her affair was justified by something too) would be in any way indicative of self respect.


Self respect also plays a part in refusing to tolerate the intolerable as well as not prioritizing someone who is only willing to make you an option.

Accepting her coming back 'for the kids' sounds (to me) like being on the wrong side of both. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## just got it 55

*Deidre* said:


> *Why would anyone want their spouse to come crawling back? *It wouldn't be because they wanted to be back in the marriage. It would be due to being dumped by their lover and not wanting to be homeless.
> 
> It isn't easy to develop self respect. But, I wouldn't take back a cheating spouse, especially a long term one. ''Crawling back'' isn't flattering, it's demeaning, tbh. Cheating spouses who come crawling back really isn't a victory. Not saying that couples can't or mustn't reconcile, but just seems like a lot of work to keep a jerk in your life.


The crawling back part would give me a woody

Then when I told the WS to **** off That woody would be on steroids

55


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## hptessla

*Deidre* said:


> I can't speak for you, only for me. And I've read so many threads on here, where the BS takes back the WS, but the only one doing the reconciling, is the BS. I personally see no point in trying to force someone to love me, who doesn't. If my husband cheats on me someday, it isn't that I wouldn't be able to forgive. It would be that I don't want a man of that character in my life, anymore.
> 
> Just be careful that you don't lose yourself, trying to ''save'' your wife and marriage.


Sincerely thank you for your parting thought.
Oddly, in this mess I have found myself more completely than anything. I've understood being unable to save anyone from themselves since I was a kid and watched my parents chase after and try to save a sibling from drugs and alcohol. I'm not going to save my wife, or my kids for that matter as they get older. All I can do is contribute to an atmosphere conducive to health and healing and that includes my own.


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## *Deidre*

hptessla said:


> Sincerely thank you for your parting thought.
> Oddly, in this mess I have found myself more completely than anything. I've understood being unable to save anyone from themselves since I was a kid and watched my parents chase after and try to save a sibling from drugs and alcohol. I'm not going to save my wife, or my kids for that matter as they get older. All I can do is contribute to an atmosphere conducive to health and healing and that includes my own.


I hope that things get better. It has to be a two part story, though. If only you are invested in making your marriage work, it won't. Stay strong.


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## 3Xnocharm

hptessla said:


> I am currently talking 'reconciliation' with my WS wife. It has nothing to do with self respect from my perspective. I didn't lose MY self respect when she decided to have sex outside of our marriage. I actually continue to care about her. I would like to see her be able to come back, out of the chaos of a life without accepted boundaries or limitations. It hurts to think of her continuing on the road she decided to take. *Yes we have children and that is part of any consideration; she is claiming that is her only real reason for reconciliation. * Whatever. She has free will and I do too. I choose to exercise my free will to try and improve my life, my kids life and hers. If she rejects the offer that's what she has decided to do with her free will.
> 
> The self respect comes in, for me, in the form of avoiding bitterness or revenge. Neither are healthy or morally attractive in myself any more than in any one else. I took vows that weren't conditional. No I didn't foresee any of this when I took them but then I don't believe that she foresaw the AP when she took her vows either. Imagine if she had upheld her own vows despite the ease of obtaining an AP? I'm not clear how me abandoning my vows because of whatever justification she hands me (in her mind her affair was justified by something too) would be in any way indicative of self respect.


Your R is going to be an epic failure then, because she isnt remorseful and only doing it for the kids. She will continue to cheat because you will continue to allow it, hiding behind a cowardly excuse of "your vows". What a terrible example of marriage for your kids.


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## She'sStillGotIt

*Deidre* said:


> Why would anyone want their spouse to come crawling back? It wouldn't be because they wanted to be back in the marriage. It would be due to being dumped by their lover and not wanting to be homeless.
> 
> It isn't easy to develop self respect. But, I wouldn't take back a cheating spouse, especially a long term one. ''Crawling back'' isn't flattering, it's demeaning, tbh. Cheating spouses who come crawling back really isn't a victory.


No, it certainly wouldn't be a 'victory' because some cheating married dirt bag discovered that life with their affair partner wasn't quite the Fantasy Land they thought it would be, so now they want to come running back home again for a 'do over.' 

That just makes the betrayed spouse the consolation prize if they actually allow that.



> Then you have the ones who are now deliriously happy and have fully reconciled and they never imagined that their marriage could be so good blah, blah, de ****ing blah. These are the ones I worry about should they get another d-day.


Those are the ones I physically *cringe* for when I read their gushing posts about how their cheater came back and they're happier than ever. OMG talk about self delusion.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

I'm not saying it never works because I haven't personally been through that wringer and hope never to be.

I know friends for whom it hasn't worked but won't generalize from there.

I can say, all those I've known; the BS had a hard time waking up and realizing the odds are very much against an R.

And didn't realize that once a WS became a WS, the bar is lower for a repeat. Less emotional baggage and increased experience in planning more successfully are more the watchwords.

In theory, but not really, almost as if better for a spouse to have had a mistress or mister, with no plans for ever divorcing a W who may have problems sexually responding to her H, or W with problem H. Goes both ways. A given is cautious, safe, no STDs, low key, discrete.

But if all other things were good, socially untarnishen, good family, childrens' future, enjoyable H/W future, trips, vacations, home life....

In olden days there may have been a few (not me) redeeming benefits from known but "unknown" (if you get my meaning) sexual liaisons, preventing toxic resentments in a M from repetitive sexual conflicts eventually destroying the M and creating harsh futures for all parties. 

As H/W age, eventually needs and desires for extraneous "visits" naturally reduce, H/W now spend years together happily, and all family members slip quietly into sunset of life, spouses slip quietly into the history books and photo album remembrances, children prosper emotionally, socially and professionally. 

It's not for me but. From experience and reading I can see both sides. It could also cause an implosion but that's a risk within a sexually toxic marriage as well.


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## Imajerk17

RE the title of this thread, I think that is a myth too. It is up there with 'you get what you deserve' [it really is more like you get what you negotiate].

I think the prevailing attitude on here--and on many forums such as these--is that cheaters cheat ONLY because something in the cheater is broken. I'm not sure I buy that in its entirety. If people also really believed that too, then they wouldn't feel so much rage and devastation on the part of the betrayed spouse due to it. Some instances sure but not all instances.

I think the prevailing attitude away from forums such as these is that cheaters cheat because they have poor boundaries, but also [in many cases] because [they at least felt that] they weren't getting their needs met by their partners. I find myself agreeing with this more. Yes indeed the cheater has poor boundaries. But I have come to see, as a guy at least, that in our relationships, we can't be asleep at the wheel. We have to screen for character as well as looks. If we stop leading the relationship and setting the tone too, bad things are all too likely to happen.


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## Taxman

It is a dependency factor here. It depends on the Wayward. For the most part, in my experience, the affairs are built on a shaky foundation, many are based in fantasy, or escape. Neither of those are sustainable. I have seen, wayward spouses leave, only to have the fantasy disintegrate fairly rapidly. Yes, I have witnessed my share of those affairs that become long-term marriages, but they are few. Mostly, the affair breaks down in the four to six week time period. I have seen a 50/50 split in reactions to wanting back. A good proportion remains separated until conditions are met, and then R can begin. I have also seen some spectacular wave offs. One in particular. She ran off with the AP, was convinced that this was her destiny. Nothing of the sort. He used her, abused her, took money and a few other things and then dumped her. She figured that her ex H would want her back. He had, for the first several weeks made it known to her that he would have her back. So she shows up on her former front porch. It is early Sunday, and she knocks. He opens the door, and she says, "I'm baaaaack!!" At that moment, his new fiance, descends from the bedroom, flashes an engagement ring, and slams the door shut on ExW. ExW has a total freak out. He explains calmly, that she had ripped out his guts, and then he realized that life was better without her. He found another quite quickly, and now ExW has nobody. She stayed alone for years. She said it was her penance for being a total idiot. She said I expected that he would be waiting for me with his arms open. I was some prize package. He wised up, and has been happily married to the new woman for now about ten years.


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## *Deidre*

Imajerk17 said:


> RE the title of this thread, I think that is a myth too. It is up there with 'you get what you deserve' [it really is more like you get what you negotiate].
> 
> I think the prevailing attitude on here--and on many forums such as these--is that cheaters cheat ONLY because something in the cheater is broken. I'm not sure I buy that in its entirety. If people also really believed that too, then they wouldn't feel so much rage and devastation on the part of the betrayed spouse due to it. Some instances sure but not all instances.
> 
> I think the prevailing attitude away from forums such as these is that cheaters cheat because they have poor boundaries, but also [in many cases] because [they at least felt that] they weren't getting their needs met by their partners. I find myself agreeing with this more. Yes indeed the cheater has poor boundaries. But I have come to see, as a guy at least, that in our relationships, we can't be asleep at the wheel. We have to screen for character as well as looks. If we stop leading the relationship and setting the tone too, bad things are all too likely to happen.


There's never really a justification to cheat, imo.


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## sokillme

Imajerk17 said:


> RE the title of this thread, I think that is a myth too. It is up there with 'you get what you deserve' [it really is more like you get what you negotiate].
> 
> I think the prevailing attitude on here--and on many forums such as these--is that cheaters cheat ONLY because something in the cheater is broken. I'm not sure I buy that in its entirety. If people also really believed that too, then they wouldn't feel so much rage and devastation on the part of the betrayed spouse due to it. Some instances sure but not all instances.
> 
> I think the prevailing attitude away from forums such as these is that cheaters cheat because they have poor boundaries, but also [in many cases] because [they at least felt that] they weren't getting their needs met by their partners. I find myself agreeing with this more. Yes indeed the cheater has poor boundaries. But I have come to see, as a guy at least, that in our relationships, we can't be asleep at the wheel. We have to screen for character as well as looks. If we stop leading the relationship and setting the tone too, bad things are all too likely to happen.


How about they cheat because they are *******s. I am not sure much more needs to be said. And who cares if they "Come Crawling Back." That implies that there is something of value. If they have to come back at all you shouldn't want them.


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## GotLifeBack

This is why so many advocate focusing on yourself and working on your own flaws. It's all you can control and you have no choice but to spend the rest of your life with yourself.

I don't doubt that quite a few WS do return, but as someone posted earlier "Crawling back" suggests some kind of epiphany. Like the WS woke up one morning and thought "I've made the biggest mistake of my life."

I'd wager that this fantasy is linked to the BS' already fragile ego hoping for the big payout bumping their stock in themselves back up, and that the fantasy is more prevalent in those with a need for external validation.

Of those that do come "Crawling back" I think a miniscule amount do it out of genuine regret and with genuine remorse. It's more likely they're driven back or pulled back by external factors such as the OM/OW ending it, cheating, the grass not being greener, or the BS becoming attractive again through self improvement. 

Sometimes the self improvement draws the WS back, but even then they don't return as they feel they've made a mistake in the romantic sense of the word. The mistake they feel they have made is that suddenly the BS looks like a better option than the OM/OW.

Then it comes down to whether the BS is prepared to be the second choice, and whether they realise that if they allow themselves to be, it won't be long before the spouse strays again.


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## Imajerk17

*Deidre* said:


> There's never really a justification to cheat, imo.


I am definitely not justifying infidelity in the slightest. All I was saying is that too many people, married or not, look out for their own happiness, first and foremost. The percentage of people of both genders who cheated is pretty high--maybe not over 50% but I don't think it is that far away. It is shocking and sad really.

On that note, I were to enter into a serious relationship again, I would do my best to screen for character. And I would damn sure make sure to 'stay on my game' so to speak.


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## *Deidre*

Imajerk17 said:


> I am definitely not justifying infidelity in the slightest. All I was saying is that too many people, married or not, look out for their own happiness, first and foremost. The percentage of people of both genders who cheated is pretty high--maybe not over 50% but I don't think it is that far away. It is shocking and sad really.
> 
> On that note, I were to enter into a serious relationship again, I would do my best to screen for character. And I would damn sure make sure to 'stay on my game' so to speak.


Right. The cheater specifically looks out for his/her best interest, even more so than the BS. The BS might be just as "unhappy'' but because they're not flawed in character, they won't cheat. Cheating isn't the next best option, when you're suffering in a ''bad'' marriage. It's a choice. It doesn't hinge on what the other spouse is doing, it's a choice.

So, many spouses are ''on their game,'' but they married a person who wanted their spouses' game and others' game too. Most cheaters coil in fear once they're caught, that tells me that they want their spouse who is the anchor in their lives, in other ways - paying bills, cleaning the house, raising kids, family ties, etc AND also want the side thing who strokes their ego, doesn't have the daily stresses of life to deal with so all attention is on the cheater, and often times, sex on demand. 

So, it's not really about being on your game or not. It isn't always about the other person. I would agree with you, if you're not on your game, and someone tells you that they want to leave you. Then, you could look at that as part of the problem could have been you. Sure, cheating can culminate from a bad marriage, one or the other spouse feeling neglected, etc but again, cheating isn't the option. Why not just leave? Because the cheater doesn't want to really leave, they want to live in two worlds as long as possible.

That's why most affairs don't end on their own - they usually end because the WS was caught. If the BS/marriage was so terrible, the WS wouldn't be begging to return. I understand your point though, it should go without saying that the best marriages, are when BOTH partners are working to selflessly give to one another.


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## moon7

bandit.45 said:


> sidney2718 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, you feel that we should tell BSs whose spouses are having serious affairs that they should divorce right away?
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all.
> 
> Just that BSs should never plan on the WS to come "crawling back or "grovelling" for forgiveness. I honestly cannot remember the most recent thread on TAM where such behavior actually occurred.
Click to expand...

BTDT, at least figuratively. I've read, yes, about WS comming back crawling after a long term affair. But it almost only occur with a hard 180, the BS telling friends and family about their affair plus preparing for a divorce, then (sometimes) the "affair fog" comes crushing down with the weight of reality. It doesnt always work, but in LTA the BS must be prepared to "lose" so they can maybe (maybe not) reconcile, but when the BS reach this level os unatachment it is way harder to rebuild and forgive and attach back. And its harder for an LTA WS to have the courage and sincerity to do a profound soul search to understand his/her true motives and stop blaming others for their own personal issues, because at this stage he/she is used to all the backward rationalization of lying to themselves, and you can not be "real" with the others when you are not "real" with yourself.

I would easily say that a couple who truly overcome a LTA and those issues above they will both be in a layer of personality higher than the one they were before, but the majority dont and wont.


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## bandit.45

moon7 said:


> BTDT, at least figuratively. I've read, yes, about WS comming back crawling after a long term affair. But it almost only occur with a hard 180, the BS telling friends and family about their affair plus preparing for a divorce, then (sometimes) the "affair fog" comes crushing down with the weight of reality. It doesnt always work, but in LTA the BS must be prepared to "lose" so they can maybe (maybe not) reconcile, but when the BS reach this level os unatachment it is way harder to rebuild and forgive and attach back. And its harder for an LTA WS to have the courage and sincerity to do a profound soul search to understand his/her true motives and stop blaming others for their own personal issues, because at this stage he/she is used to all the backward rationalization of lying to themselves, and you can not be "real" with the others when you are not "real" with yourself.
> 
> I would easily say that a couple who truly overcome a LTA and those issues above they will both be in a layer of personality higher than the one they were before, but the majority dont and wont.


But a larger portion of those LTA WSs come back with conditions: that the BS stop badgering them about their affair partners, stop questioning them, stop bringing up the affair... and to "just get over it so we can move on." _That_ behavior is the norm. The blubbering, down on hands and knees begging behavior is almost never seen. That is what I mean by "crawling back".


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## moon7

bandit.45 said:


> But a larger portion of those LTA WSs come back with conditions: that the BS stop badgering them about their affair partners, stop questioning them, stop bringing up the affair... and to "just get over it so we can move on." _That_ behavior is the norm. The blubbering, down on hands and knees begging behavior is almost never seen. That is what I mean by "crawling back".



And thats what I meant when I said that the majority dont and wont overcome a LTA. They will only rugsweep and buy time, but mever recover.


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## ArthurGPym

This thread was immensely helpful to me. I have to admit I want my ex-GF to come back to me begging with snot and tears flooding down her face, just so I can show her the door. But I know that won't happen, and after reading this I hope it doesn't happen.


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## Al_Bundy

ArthurGPym said:


> This thread was immensely helpful to me. I have to admit I want my ex-GF to come back to me begging with snot and tears flooding down her face, just so I can show her the door. But I know that won't happen, and after reading this I hope it doesn't happen.


I can understand that. Even though that will never happen, with social media you can have something happen even better. You've heard the phrase about living well is the best revenge. I know, so boring, takes too long to make happen, .............but it's worth it. Granted you might never get to see her reaction, but all it takes is for the new improved you to come up on her feed as a suggested friend. I've had several women I knew from school, old jobs, etc.. hit me up and say hey you came up as a friend suggestion. If they still looked decent I'd meet them for drinks (NEVER dinner) and have some fun. If they were porkers, I'd just delete the message. 

The bottom line is to improve yourself, do the work and enjoy the fruits of your labor. Women will be a side effect of that work.


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## LATERILUS79

ArthurGPym said:


> This thread was immensely helpful to me. I have to admit I want my ex-GF to come back to me begging with snot and tears flooding down her face, just so I can show her the door. But I know that won't happen, and after reading this I hope it doesn't happen.


LoL. You see Arthur? You continue to prove my point. You are a good, honorable man with integrity. Definitely someone to look up to.

I am NOT that guy. My integrity and morals constantly hang on by a hair. It takes a good amount of discipline for me to live the way I do. All that would go out the door if my wife were to ever betray me in this way…. Or if I would be one of the few unfortunate souls I’ve read about that “one day, I happened upon this usb drive in a drawer and got shocked with what I found”.
Naw. All of my self control over my vengeful side? Gone. It’d be gone in an instant.

you keep doing you. Keep on kicking ass.


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## Marc878

The big question you should be asking is what would You be getting back? IMO the same thing that left. 
They may have gotten dumped by their AP and need a soft place to land or it wasn’t the unicorn experience they thought so they seek out the comfortable place.
From what I’ve seen R mostly stands for Rugsweep not Reconciliation. 
Rugsweep often results in repeats or long term heartburn.

True reconciliations from what I’ve seen are fairly rare. They happen but it’s a hard long road.


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## Al_Bundy

Marc878 said:


> The big question you should be asking is what would You be getting back? IMO the same thing that left.
> They may have gotten dumped by their AP and need a soft place to land or it wasn’t the unicorn experience they thought so they seek out the comfortable place.
> From what I’ve seen R mostly stands for Rugsweep not Reconciliation.
> Rugsweep often results in repeats or long term heartburn.
> 
> True reconciliations from what I’ve seen are fairly rare. They happen but it’s a hard long road.


Totally agree. I would argue it truly never happens in the sense that the person cheated on can't forget it for one and then there's the self-esteem hit you'd take from accepting it even if things "worked out".


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## My Monsters

I am still with my wayward spouse, I forgave him for his physical affair he had 20 years ago. Unfortunately, that didn’t stop him from having emotional or virtual affairs since. We have been together 40+ years now. BS need think long and hard about their spouses character...are the weak standards, do they “gaslight”, do they have an addictive personality, are they compulsive....these are all bad sign when it comes to staying together and not repeating.


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## Marc878

Al_Bundy said:


> Totally agree. I would argue it truly never happens in the sense that the person cheated on can't forget it for one and then there's the self-esteem hit you'd take from accepting it even if things "worked out".


Yes. If you stay you do eat the **** sandwich you were served.


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## calvin

Miss you bonehead. 
Dsmn shaft licking hosebag. 
Could use your help right now but you retired from Tams.
Its cool,i still hate you in a good way.


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## ConanHub

calvin said:


> Miss you bonehead.
> Dsmn shaft licking hosebag.
> Could use your help right now but you retired from Tams.
> Its cool,i still hate you in a good way.


I miss him too buddy!


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## calvin

bandit.45 said:


> How many times on the CWI threads do you read a well-meaning poster say something to the affect that "...once the OM/OW dumps your WS, your WS will realize they are about to lose everything and come _crawling back _to beg you to forgive them.
> 
> All of the anecdotal evidence I have read and seen on TAM over the past four years tell a vastly different story of how waywards act. Very few are truly repentant. This fantasy that wayward spouses somehow, at some point, have an epiphany that they have destroyed their life by leaving their BS for another, and come "crawling back" just seems to me to be a pipe dream.
> 
> From what I have seen, 99% of the wayward spouses who do eventually break off their affairs and come back to their BSs do so only because they got thrown under the bus by their AP, and have no other options, and even then their willingness to work on reconciliation is conditional:
> 
> _"Well, I admit that having an affair was wrong and I'm sorry for hurting you, but I'm not sorry for having an affair because I needed something that you were not providing me..."
> 
> "Well, I am willing to work on our marriage, but I am still in love with my AP, so don't expect me to just act like your spouse for a long time. And I am not ready to have sex with you, so don't even ask."
> 
> "If I come back there are going to be some changes..."
> 
> "Why do we have to keep talking about this? Can't we just move on with our lives?"_
> 
> And so on... ad nausea....
> 
> Now, to be clear, I'm not talking about WSs who get busted for having a one night stand. They are a different category. Usually when they get busted they fess up and beg forgiveness. I'm mainly referring to WSs who have been engaged in an ongoing affair and have developed a strong relationship with their AP.
> 
> These are the spouses who gave great thought to leaving their spouse and the marriage for the AP, engaged in a short to lengthy affair, and were found out at some point by their spouse, but determined to continue on with the affair knowing it would end their marriage.
> 
> My question to you all is...are we doing a disservice to the newbie BSs who come on to TAM asking for our advice when we tell them something like this?
> 
> It just seems like we are stetting them up for disappointment.


I would argue that around 20% of WS's are truely repentant and remorseful, still you are right,the vast majority are not.
I have seen two or three couples make it,the rest?
Nope.
I also see a very slim minority of WS's where the circumstances were very different...threatened, raped or controlled.
But for the most part,you're right their AP was a lying sack of ****.
So they come back and feed some false hope with a very long lease for the BS to make sure they are their back up plan.


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## calvin

ConanHub said:


> I miss him too buddy!


 I'm sure the bone head seen it


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## calvin

Oops I ment 20%


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## Marc878

The bigger question is if they do come back what are you getting?


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## calvin

Marc878 said:


> The bigger question is if they do come back what are you getting?


Hopefully what they deserve.


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## DownByTheRiver

bandit.45 said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Just that BSs should never plan on the WS to come "crawling back or "grovelling" for forgiveness. I honestly cannot remember the most recent thread on TAM where such behavior actually occurred.


Yeah. That's just a fantasy. It's a fantasy because there's wounded pride involved and that's how they envision repairing the pride, by the spouse coming crawling back and telling them they now realize how they're the best man on Earth and no one can compare. And it's not just on affairs but also wives who divorce or want a divorce. It's a fantasy that once they get out there they'll realize what they lost and come crawling back. 

I'm sure there's a female version of this too but it's not quite exactly the same.


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## One Eighty

bandit.45 said:


> My question to you all is...are we doing a disservice to the newbie BSs who come on to TAM asking for our advice when we tell them something like this?
> 
> It just seems like we are stetting them up for disappointment.


Yes and no. My own sad story is that, as you say Bandit, the WS only came back at all because the AP was unavailable. There were pathetic attempts to hide the fact that I was Plan B. There was obvious deep depression and mourning the loss of the AP. Tons of damage control. Hysterical bonding as spackle.

I had my own reasons for putting up with this. It wasn't for "love" for sure. I had my own agenda and hid it well. The result though was that this went on for years. So Bandit, you are right. They do NOT come crawling back. At least not in a reasonable time frame.

Now though, many years later, WS has had counseling. WS has fixed so many things in WS's lifestyle. All these other things WS fixed first. WS didn't want to admit that the affair was something that was a sign of bad character. WS told me there was only very superficial discussion of the affair in the counseling sessions because it wasn't that important of a thing. WS said things like, "Everyone does it." Which is half true but irrelevant. Still, meaning WS was not ashamed of it. 

WS's counselor was wise to not press that issue. Eventually WS's personal growth lead WS to want confront this one really hard thing to face. WS then did do that, with the counselor. WS then did become truly remorseful. WS then did also realize I was lying about wanting to reconcile. WS is now crawling back. Begging me to stop the fake reconciliation. 

So if you have time and patience, yes, your WS might come crawling back.


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## Marc878

One Eighty said:


> Yes and no. My own sad story is that, as you say Bandit, the WS only came back at all because the AP was unavailable. There were pathetic attempts to hide the fact that I was Plan B. There was obvious deep depression and mourning the loss of the AP. Tons of damage control. Hysterical bonding as spackle.
> 
> I had my own reasons for putting up with this. It wasn't for "love" for sure. I had my own agenda and hid it well. The result though was that this went on for years. So Bandit, you are right. They do NOT come crawling back. At least not in a reasonable time frame.
> 
> Now though, many years later, WS has had counseling. WS has fixed so many things in WS's lifestyle. All these other things WS fixed first. WS didn't want to admit that the affair was something that was a sign of bad character. WS told me there was only very superficial discussion of the affair in the counseling sessions because it wasn't that important of a thing. WS said things like, "Everyone does it." Which is half true but irrelevant. Still, meaning WS was not ashamed of it.
> 
> WS's counselor was wise to not press that issue. Eventually WS's personal growth lead WS to want confront this one really hard thing to face. WS then did do that, with the counselor. WS then did become truly remorseful. WS then did also realize I was lying about wanting to reconcile. WS is now crawling back. Begging me to stop the fake reconciliation.
> *
> So if you have time and patience, yes, your WS might come crawling back.*


Some just stay together. Maybe because it’s a known versus the unknown.


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## calvin

Where you at Bonehead?
I know you're in here.


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