# The Married Man Sex Life Primer and the MAP in Marriage



## TheJourneyBegins

Hi, all!

I’m currently finishing up the MMSLP, and starting on the MAP as well as my NMMNG BFE’s (for the second time). I’m wondering if any of you have run into the issues I have in the MMSLP? Kay has a lot of good material and his theories are compelling. However, as far as his advice as to particular “alpha” techniques and suggestions for interactions with one’s partner (or prospective partner), I’ve found only a few to be feasible in my particular situation. For instance, Kay mentions playfully spanking her ass when she’s exhibiting a behavior that you wish to suppress (as in “Bad Girl”). He mentions this several times as a sort of gentle “alpha correction” as it were. I have, in fact had the opportunity to try this sort of approach with my SO in the not so distant past (not in connection with his advice, however, but rather from my own head). She had delivered some particularly biting remarks to me, in front of the kids, who had since left the room. I smirked, playfully spanked her ass in her jeans VERY lightly, with a comment to the effect that that was “Naughty”, and I’d prefer she didn’t do it again (but in a playfully sincere manner). She became incensed, looked me square in the eye and said, “Don’t EVER spank me again. YOU’RE NOT MY FATHER!!!!!! . Do you understand?”…….

Soooo, that’s right out. I’m thinking she has some issues, although she swears that her parents were strict but loving and no abuse took place.

His other suggestions, including telling her IN DETAIL what you plan to do in bed that night (“When we enter our room, first I’m going to…….then…..). Has resulted in the response, “You know, it really annoys me that you assume that I’m going to want to have sex with you. I think it’s arrogant as hell for you to start telling me what you’re going to do when you haven’t even ASKED ME IF I WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU TONITE!!!!!. And you know, I might have, but that’s just a huge turnoff”

I agree with his general ideas, and I’m on board with working the MAP, but most attempts that I’ve made to add some alpha to my beta (slowly and deliberately, not overdoing it) are met with an offended, dismissive SO.

What do you all think of his style and recommendations? Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE the book. I’m following that and NMMNG closely.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Interesting. Full disclosure, I've never read the book. But what you're experiencing is one of the main reasons why I don't get too specific when I'm trying to advise someone on game/seduction. I generally just prefer to give them some broad pointers that they can hopefully use to find their "own" game. 

The reality is something that works for me may not work for them. If I were to try and seduce my wife with words provided to me by another man it probably wouldn't come across as authentic. It could come across as silly, offensive, or even creepy depending on the context and delivery.

I'd advise you to think about your wife's personality before applying everything you read in Mr. Kay's book. Also, if the "new you" is a significant departure from the old you the MAP might not work for you, or it may take longer.


----------



## John Lee

I haven't read the book, but I'm skeptical of any one-size-fits-all approach to women.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Hi, all!
> 
> I’m currently finishing up the MMSLP, and starting on the MAP as well as my NMMNG BFE’s (for the second time). I’m wondering if any of you have run into the issues I have in the MMSLP? Kay has a lot of good material and his theories are compelling. However, as far as his advice as to particular “alpha” techniques and suggestions for interactions with one’s partner (or prospective partner), I’ve found only a few to be feasible in my particular situation. For instance, Kay mentions playfully spanking her ass when she’s exhibiting a behavior that you wish to suppress (as in “Bad Girl”). He mentions this several times as a sort of gentle “alpha correction” as it were. I have, in fact had the opportunity to try this sort of approach with my SO in the not so distant past (not in connection with his advice, however, but rather from my own head). She had delivered some particularly biting remarks to me, in front of the kids, who had since left the room. I smirked, playfully spanked her ass in her jeans VERY lightly, with a comment to the effect that that was “Naughty”, and I’d prefer she didn’t do it again (but in a playfully sincere manner). She became incensed, looked me square in the eye and said, “Don’t EVER spank me again. YOU’RE NOT MY FATHER!!!!!! . Do you understand?”…….
> 
> Soooo, that’s right out. I’m thinking she has some issues, although she swears that her parents were strict but loving and no abuse took place.
> 
> His other suggestions, including telling her IN DETAIL what you plan to do in bed that night (“When we enter our room, first I’m going to…….then…..). Has resulted in the response, “You know, it really annoys me that you assume that I’m going to want to have sex with you. I think it’s arrogant as hell for you to start telling me what you’re going to do when you haven’t even ASKED ME IF I WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU TONITE!!!!!. And you know, I might have, but that’s just a huge turnoff”
> 
> I agree with his general ideas, and I’m on board with working the MAP, but most attempts that I’ve made to add some alpha to my beta (slowly and deliberately, not overdoing it) are met with an offended, dismissive SO.
> 
> What do you all think of his style and recommendations? Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE the book. I’m following that and NMMNG closely.


I have looked at MMSL. As a woman, I find it disgusting and sexist. Wives are not mindless sex dolls with no valuable opinions. 

My husband loves to slap my ass. I wouldn't mind the butt slapping if it wasn't so excessive and done in public. I have told him to knock it off to no avail. Also, when my husband explains why he slaps my ass so much I can't help but smile. He does it out of intense attraction, playfulness and love. 

If you choose to follow MMSL, perhaps you need to SLOWLY introduce "Alpha" moves. It appears that your wife has some rigid boundaries which can come from abuse or other factors. My husband has gotten me to relax my boundaries by being_ gentle _when he nudges them. I enjoy the racy texts he sends about what he wants to do to me that night.


----------



## PHTlump

While the MAP will improve most marriages, there are exceptions. Perhaps your wife is someone who doesn't want you to be more assertive. You must keep that possibility in mind.

However, I bet your wife is fairly typical and would like you to be more assertive. The key to this is, you can't always announce that you are, hereby, from this day forth, more assertive. Some women, especially women who feel compelled to be in charge, which your wife might fit, based on your brief description, will push back. That doesn't mean you're on the wrong track. It just means you have to be more stealthy about changing.

You shouldn't defer to your wife in all things for five years straight, and then start spanking her one fine day. She'll think you've gone crazy. Even if she wouldn't mind being spanked, eventually, she will want the changes in you to seem natural and unforced.

So, give it time. Dial back the alpha until it feels more natural. If you've been at 3 on the alpha scale, don't try to get to 8 in a week, or a month. Try to get up to 5, for now. Once 5 feels comfortable, get up to 7. Then, 8 will be a small leap and she will be much more accommodating of your changes.

Good luck.


----------



## PHTlump

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> I have looked at MMSL. As a woman, I find it disgusting and sexist. Wives are not mindless sex dolls with no valuable opinions.


:scratchhead: Which book did you read? How does the position that women like assertive men who are capable of leading them equate to the belief that women are worthless sex dolls?

To the OP, this is the kind of attitude that you have to be wary of. Women have been programmed that they must not allow any men to get the best of them. Even if those men are their husbands and their marriages would improve with more assertive men. Somehow, a captain/first officer model equals overseer/slave. So, if your wife gives signs of this attitude, you have to change the dynamic against her will.

Good luck.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Thanks for the replies so far. The "spanking" was very gentle, almost figurative. It's the "authority" she wants to control, not the act, as she's very amenable to spanking during sex. Along with the spanking thing, she's just VERY resistant to me being in charge (or "leading" as I call it), and she's told me so. She says she just can't seem to not take over when she "knows" things can be done a better way.

I would never use techniques or words from another on my wife. I simply was referring to the "Flavor" behind the techniques and suggestions he makes....the idea rather than the literal words.

I'm a classic Nice Guy, following NMMNG and this book in the general sense. I have no timetable, and am NOT trying to rush things....I do know that it takes time. I'd say I'm a 4 on the Alpha scale....and have probably changed to a 5 over the last 3 weeks or so.


----------



## PHTlump

TheJourneyBegins said:


> She had delivered some particularly biting remarks to me, in front of the kids, who had since left the room. I smirked, playfully spanked her ass in her jeans VERY lightly, with a comment to the effect that that was “Naughty”, and I’d prefer she didn’t do it again (but in a playfully sincere manner). She became incensed, looked me square in the eye and said, “Don’t EVER spank me again. YOU’RE NOT MY FATHER!!!!!! . Do you understand?”…….


That was a sh!t test. She misbehaved, you corrected her, she doubled down, and you folded. So, you failed the test.

Now, I'm assuming that she doesn't have any physical abuse in her past where a light swat on the tush would trigger a PTSD episode. If she has that, then an inappropriate response is understandable. But absent that kind of context, she was simply trying to dominate you.

I think there are two options for you to handle that kind of a test. First, you could look her right in the eye, keep a smirk on your face, and VERY LIGHTLY swat her tush again. Then chuckle and walk away. She'll either say nothing, or she'll go ballistic. Either way, you're out the door.

The other option is to go hard against her. When she coldly tells you that only her father can spank her, and you must never discipline her, you stare into her eyes and tell her that her father wasn't available, so you had to fill in. If she doesn't want any future discipline, she can behave herself. Again, this is after she was being rude to you in front of your children.



> His other suggestions, including telling her IN DETAIL what you plan to do in bed that night (“When we enter our room, first I’m going to…….then…..).


That doesn't work with my wife. She has gone from the attitude that good girls don't have sex (even with their husbands), to the attitude that good girls do have sex with their husbands, but pretend they don't. Any strategy designed to overtly discuss sex would backfire. It would make her too uncomfortable.

My sex life has to be based on winks and nods. She doesn't even say the word "sex". She uses euphemisms and pretends she doesn't know what I'm up to when I'm setting the stage for sex later on.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

I don't necessarily think I folded. When she said that, I looked at her and I said,"Well, I just did". She said "Don't Do It". I chuckled and STFU.

Don't think there's abuse, but I do like your line regarding her dad not being available and having to fill in.:iagree:


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Even if those men are their husbands and their marriages would improve with more assertive men. Somehow, a captain/first officer model equals overseer/slave. So, if your wife gives signs of this attitude, you have to change the dynamic against her will.


Change the dynamic against her will, and you may find that you have no dynamic at all left.

Some women surely do want to be submissive to a stronger man, but if the man decides this is so, unilaterally and without consideration for his wife, he may find himself captain of a sunk ship.

Not all reactions are "fitness tests" looking for an alpha response. That daddy line, for example, would have me out the door, pdq.


----------



## naiveonedave

My $0.02 on the MAP, take implementation slow. that appears to be working well for me. I am actually getting requests to speed up, eventhough she doesn't know it....


----------



## Tall Average Guy

always_alone said:


> Change the dynamic against her will, and you may find that you have no dynamic at all left.
> 
> Some women surely do want to be submissive to a stronger man, but if the man decides this is so, unilaterally and without consideration for his wife, he may find himself captain of a sunk ship.


Sure, but I think most women want a man who is a partner, not a push over. So even if the OP does not go to be the dominant, standing up for himself and being man is rarely an issue for a healthy woman.



> Not all reactions are "fitness tests" looking for an alpha response. That daddy line, for example, would have me out the door, pdq.


And receiving biting, disrespectful remarks from his wife in front of his children is just fine? Its bad behavior on her part. If getting called on it would cause her to be out the door, perhaps that is a good result.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Change the dynamic against her will, and you may find that you have no dynamic at all left.


Sure. While most women appreciate assertive men, some don't. There are two possibilities with women who respond negatively to a husband who is suddenly more assertive. The first is that they don't like assertive men. The second is that they do like assertive men, they're just thrown off by the shift in the balance of power. It's up to the men running the MAP to decide which possibility is at work and respond appropriately.



> Some women surely do want to be submissive to a stronger man, but if the man decides this is so, unilaterally and without consideration for his wife, he may find himself captain of a sunk ship.


True. But, it's usually the men who have to decide to try it. Stories of women requesting a captain/first officer model are very rare. Even for women who enjoy the dynamic, they either don't realize it, or they're too timid to initiate it.



> Not all reactions are "fitness tests" looking for an alpha response. That daddy line, for example, would have me out the door, pdq.


Not all reactions are. But some are. If you are a woman who belittles her husband in front of the children, and then doubles down on your poor behavior when he objects, then I wouldn't be very surprised if you continued your poor behavior when he dismisses your complaints about him not submitting to you.


----------



## Rowan

Tall Average Guy said:


> And receiving biting, disrespectful remarks from his wife in front of his children is just fine? Its bad behavior on her part. If getting called on it would cause her to be out the door, perhaps that is a good result.


Nope. Her being nasty to him in front of the kids is not okay. And I think he should have told her that - directly. Calmly, firmly and directly. "Your tone/words sounded biting and disrespectful. I'm not okay with that. If you have something you'd like to discuss with me, please do so out of the hearing of the kids. But also know I won't stick around for a conversation that can't be respectful." 

Swatting me on the behind, calling me naughty, and smirking while calling me out would not be okay with me. And I would tell my partner so. For me, being treated like a naughty child my partner is amused by feels dismissive and disrespectful. I don't do well with being treated like a child. If my partner thinks I've behaved childishly, he's free to tell me that. I'm all good with clear communication and assertiveness from my parter. But mocking, smirking, dismissiveness, treating me like a child, or conveying that he thinks it's his job to parent me would all be show stoppers.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Rowan said:


> Nope. Her being nasty to him in front of the kids is not okay. And I think he should have told her that - directly. Calmly, firmly and directly. "Your tone/words sounded biting and disrespectful. I'm not okay with that. If you have something you'd like to discuss with me, please do so out of the hearing of the kids. But also know I won't stick around for a conversation that can't be respectful."
> 
> Swatting me on the behind, calling me naughty, and smirking while calling me out would not be okay with me. And I would tell my partner so. For me, being treated like a naughty child my partner is amused by feels dismissive and disrespectful. I don't do well with being treated like a child. If my partner thinks I've behaved childishly, he's free to tell me that. I'm all good with clear communication and assertiveness from my parter. But mocking, smirking, dismissiveness, treating me like a child, or conveying that he thinks it's his job to parent me would all be show stoppers.


I would not disagree with that approach either. But it sounds like she was treating him as a child. I have known some where the only effective way to respond is to turn the tables. So while I personally would have take your approach (and done it in front of the children), I do know it does not work for all.


----------



## naiveonedave

PHT - I think that society (aka feminism) has decided that capt/1st officer is never okay. That is why many men don't do it and many woman are afraid to admit that is what they want.


----------



## Trickster

MMSL was of no help... it made the marriage worse than what is was.

It did bring out some truths...My wife doesn't like sex and loves me like she would a life long friend...Sex a few times a month was doable for her...I wanted sex a few times a week.

My wife liked me because I was beta. Alpha doesn't register at all...

Because of it, I can go screw some other woman... She will give me sex on her terms when she wants...no more than that.

We have an open marriage now... When the time comes when I have sex with another woman, our sex life will be totally over... 

D you ask? Her sister is an attorney and we are in debt...if I pretend that all is well, we get along great and i may even get periodic sex...

I don't even want it anymore...

So yes,on that level, I like MMSL...it forced communication...I just didn't like it the answers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndyTMI

TheJourneyBegins said:


> I think it’s arrogant as hell for you to start telling me what you’re going to do when you haven’t even ASKED ME IF I WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU TONITE!!!!!. And you know, I might have, but that’s just a huge turnoff”


That's a problem right there...having to ask. If you are asking, she is the one ALWAYS in control.

With my ex, it wasn't ever a thing of having to ask, as I never did, it was always attempting and getting shut down with rejection.

Since I have a new love in my life, rejection is something quite foreign to me.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

I would say that while MMSL gives some good tips, everything does not work for all women. So while a swat to the rear works with some, it won't with others. So study your wife and try to apply the overarching principles:

Be a partner, not a child;
Be the man that she can be attracted to:
Don't be ashamed of being a sexual being;
Work on your characteristics that she is attracted to.

For example, while me being in shape is good, the big muscles don't do it for her. But me doing improvement projects around the house (particularly with the kids) is like catnip for her. So work to understand her and what makes her tick to best apply the teachings.


----------



## always_alone

Tall Average Guy said:


> And receiving biting, disrespectful remarks from his wife in front of his children is just fine? Its bad behavior on her part. If getting called on it would cause her to be out the door, perhaps that is a good result.


Of course not, and she should absolutely be called on it.

It's not being called out that would have me out the door, it's being treated like a naughty child by someone who's trying to turn me into his "first officer".


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

always_alone said:


> Of course not, and she should absolutely be called on it.
> 
> It's not being called out that would have me out the door, it's being treated like a naughty child by someone who's trying to turn me into his "first officer".


:iagree:

This is what disgusts me about MMSL; the idea that the man should always be in charge, turning his wife into an assistant and "training" her.


----------



## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> It's not being called out that would have me out the door, it's being treated like a naughty child by someone who's trying to turn me into his "first officer".


Some days I wonder if a woman who is insightful enough into basic human psychology to understand that would be the type pulling the silly sort of behavior this genre of books address in the first place. :scratchhead:


----------



## P51Geo1980

I'm going to come out and say that I don't buy the whole alpha/beta thing - it's a joke. And I think that Athol Kay has come up with a great marketing ploy to make himself a ton of money off the gullible. The idea of spanking your wife because she disrespected you is ridiculous and you got what you deserved - this isn't the same thing as an "I want to f your brains out" kind of spank - you did it to punish her. The majority of women worth half their weight in salt would have the same reaction. I understand that TAM is a microcosm of individuals with marital problems and not at all reflective of the real world. In the real world I don't really think this type of treatment - or that espoused by Kay - would really fly very well with any woman.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Before you all start thinking I'm a nut-job who wants to parent his wife, please understand that I was trying to joke her out of the acid-tongue routine, with something that has worked in the past. 

Let me give you an indication of where I started on this course of trying to recover from being a Nice Guy. My first post on the NMMNG forum in recent weeks was as follows:

_I've been on the forum in Talk About Marriage, and I'll be blunt...I began the journey through NMMNG, read the book, started the BFEs quite a while ago. I confess that my desire for peace and harmony in our house got the best of me, as did my desire for sex and intimacy, and I broke down and, looking back on it, fairly redoubled my nice-guy efforts. This is entirely my fault and my poor will-power in that regard isn't doing much for my self-esteem. However, after some fairly mild but telling events, I've sort of *****-slapped myself and am no longer willing to accept instant (if brief) gratification to continue a life of spinning to make sure nothing is wrong, she's not upset, no-one is making trouble or causing her to be in a bad mood.

Some background. This is the THIRD marriage for both of us. Our firsts were shortly out of college, stupid, and really nothing to write home about. Our seconds were more substantial, she had 2 kids (now 13 and 15 boys), and I had 3 (13 and 17 girls, 20 boy). My divorce was related to issues of attention...she put the kids first, and I was relegated to the back of the bus. This let to an affair on my part (20 yr old, yada yada...entirely inappropriate and my fault). We were divorced and, miraculously, remain good friends and share custody (my son lives with me, girls live with each of us every other week). She was divorced because, she says, he was an *******, was emotionally abusive, and threatened her with lethal bodily harm (so she escaped). During their marriage, she did have one affair. We are not "legally" married, but we all currently live in my large house (she and her children moved in from her double wide 3 years ago).

I'm a CLASSIC nice guy, the enmeshing sort. My world revolves around her mood and her willingness to have sex with me. I'll pretty much do anything she says in order for her not to get upset and withold sex.

Prior to falling off of the NMMNG bandwagon, I posted this summary regarding the dynamics of our relationship:

If I use the wrong term in a sentence, or I say something via a colloquialism that she hasn’t been familiar with, I am immediately rebuked in a sharp and snarky tone, whether we are in front of the kids or not. Should an argument ensue over anything, I have about 6 seconds to make her understand my point before her hand is up, and she says, in no uncertain terms, that she’s “Done”. It is very difficult to talk to her without eliciting some criticism of either the way I said it, or even the subject. Her tone and her demeanor in dealing with my “behavior” is exactly the same as it is when dealing with her kids when they misbehave.

I am the “Hot” partner in the relationship. These are the points that completely describe me:

1. Are almost always saying ILY or IAILWY first
2. Typically initiate calls/texts/emails when apart/one or both are at work
3. Make “peace” after a fight even when your partner clearly wronged you 
4. Walk around visibly angry/VERY angry after a fight (this comes across as “I am furious that you – the person I LOVE SO MUCH – is doing x,y,z to ME
5. Anxiously keep trying to make up when you were in the wrong because you cannot bear having them angry with you (THIS ONE IS HUGE FOR ME)
6. Are mostly/always initiating physical contact (hugs, kisses, touches, groping) (HUGE)
7. When anxious you initiate “talks” about the R, typically to “fix” them/their behavior 
8. Do WAY MORE than your fair share of housework
9. Put their needs ahead of yours whenever there is a priority conflict
10. Are constantly seeking their approval
11. Show anxiety or fear when they are angry/frustrated with you
12. Initiate sex when their body language radiates a “lack” of interest/desire, pout/sulk get angry when they tactfully decline sex

She has told me things like “If you want to be the man of the house, OWN IT, don’t grovel, don’t try to please me or apologize over and over. That’s SOOO annoying”. When I do this, however, she rebels.

We don’t get to spend much time together alone. I have my kids one week on, one week off, and she has hers virtually 24/7. 5 days/week I get home at 5 pm, clean kitchen, start dinner, she gets home at 6, immediately goes to her kids room to start helping him with his homework (learning issues), comes up when I tell her that dinner is ready, gets food for her and kids, goes back down to room/living area until homework is done. Then, she’ll generally hang out with her kids until their bedtime, which is also HER bedtime. She then goes to bed, I follow, and we talk for about 10 minutes until she’s asleep. Sex happens only when the stars align, and when she wants it (like when I’m late taking the kids to school, she touches me sexually and then suddenly has to have it then….how can I say no?)

The issue is currently this: I have spent so much time trying to "even out" her moods; trying to do everything I can to please her, that I have alienated my kids (who overtly despise her). I tend to take out my irritation with her on them, which is entirely and totally reprehensible. I walk on eggshells doing my best, hoping that she'll stay in a good mood long enough to have a quiet evening and some possibility of sex (which she is EXTREMELY good at, but which she says she doesn't need anywhere near as much as I do). Sometimes she'll text me during the day telling me in no uncertain terms how much she wants me sexually, and when we both get home from work, one little misstep or misstatement on my part can completely end the entire possibility of sex. We get into frequent arguments about my word choice in conversation, my tone of voice (which she calls "yelling" when I'm not agreeing with her. 

She blames her frequent tiredness and bad moods on her fibromyalgia, which she DOES have, but which doesn't seem to bother as much as when something needs doing (housework, dishes, sex, etc). I don't doubt that fibromyalgia is a problem....it's a horrible disease. I try to support her however I can (get out her meds, turn down the bed, get her CPAP mask set up for her). I'm sure I have many covert contracts.....I do all this work around the house and am the breadwinner etc and she still runs the show. I'm so fearful that she'll withold sex that I'll do just about anything to make sure that she stays happy (even though things often get nixed on the home stretch). She is rude and insulting to my kids, and tends to think of hers as angels that can do no wrong. 

I'm doing everything I can to keep us afloat financially; I have the high-paying job, but we're house poor, and underwater so we can't really sell the house just yet. She has a lower paying job, much lower than she's qualified for. Her ex recently stopped paying child support, and what little she contributed to our finances completely stopped. I pay mortgage, cable, garbage, my car payment, all of our cell phones, her gasoline for her car, electric bill, gas bill, internet bill, home repair bills (she says her name is not on the mortgage so she's not responsible), all grocery and food bills, my kids school and sports fees. She feels this is fair because I'd be paying the mortgage, utility, internet, repair etc bills whether she was there or not; she doesn't see any need to contribute. She pays for her kids sports fees, her kids stuff, her car payment and her car insurance. That's it. I'm actively looking for a second job, as we're currently just barely making it. I've asked her to contribute more (her gass and cell phone at least) but she says she doesn't have any money to give. However, she's always able to buy her kids what they need and want. She's due a big tax refund, and she says she wants to use it to take her kids on a trip and to buy a new (and rather expenseive) sewing machine. We're rather drowning in bills, so I'm not too enthusiastic about that. When I caution her not to spend money, she gets angry. When I ask her to contribute more, she gets angry.

Sorry I've been rambling a bit....what I really need is for you to ask questions about our relationship (I'm sure I forgot to address important aspects) so that I can present this better. We've been to counseling, she doesn't want to go anymore because she feels it's doing nothing for her, and if I would get MY problems straightened out things would be fine. I'm here for advice, and most of all, for support. I've begun again to Man-Up, STFU and withdraw availability. I'm putting myself first. However, sometimes myself wants SEX! That's hard, tho I'm in a moratorium for at least a week (I've not told her that, however).

I'm here for support; I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. Sorry this has sounded disjointed, but I'm having trouble communicating clearly lately because I'm so stressed.
_

You might also want to reference this thread. 

If I tell her, in a straightforward manner, that I don't care for her verbal abuse, and that I won't address it in the future, she will simply say, "Yeah, whatever, I'm done with you".

In any case, I'm working on ME, not getting her to change. I'm doing what I can to do my part in the relationship, but if it ends I'll know I have done all I can.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Omg, smh. You put up with this crap from a squater???? You need serious help man. Time to send this ***** back to the trailer park.


----------



## over20

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This is what disgusts me about MMSL; the idea that the man should always be in charge, turning his wife into an assistant and "training" her.


It is NOT disgusting, it is about married sex and love from a MAN's perspective. A very brave man that is very transparent. Most wives don't GET IT. :scratchhead: most wives don't even want to try to understand and LISTEN to their DH sexual wants and needs..


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

over20 said:


> It is NOT disgusting, it is about married sex and love from a MAN's perspective. A very brave man that is very transparent. Most wives don't GET IT. :scratchhead: most wives don't even want to try to understand and LISTEN to their DH sexual wants and needs..



It is true that many husbands complain about their sex lives. 

I suppose I should feel fortunate that my husband and I enjoy passionate, frequent and satisfying lovemaking. 

We will simply have to agree to disagree on MMSL.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

P51Geo1980 said:


> I'm going to come out and say that I don't buy the whole alpha/beta thing - it's a joke. A*nd I think that Athol Kay has come up with a great marketing ploy to make himself a ton of money off the gullible. The idea of spanking your wife because she disrespected you is ridiculous and you got what you deserved - this isn't the same thing as an "I want to f your brains out" kind of spank - you did it to punish her. The majority of women worth half their weight in salt would have the same reaction. * I understand that TAM is a microcosm of individuals with marital problems and not at all reflective of the real world. *In the real world I don't really think this type of treatment - or that espoused by Kay - would really fly very well with any woman.*


:iagree: The followers all drank the MMSL Kool-Aid!

My husband wanted a woman who does not need to be led or controlled. We share important decisions and we listen to each other. 

Neither of us is above the other one like Athol Kay advocates; there are no "officers" and "first mates."


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Of course not, and she should absolutely be called on it.
> 
> It's not being called out that would have me out the door, it's being treated like a naughty child by someone who's trying to turn me into his "first officer".


So, as I understand it, if a woman acts like a petulant child, her husband should respond to her as if she were a responsible adult. If she doubles down and goes from petulant to downright threatening, he should just keep on pretending that she's well mannered. If he responds to her the way she's inviting him to respond, i.e. as the parent of a child who is pitching a fit, then he's the jerk.

Yeah, that sounds about right.


----------



## PHTlump

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This is what disgusts me about MMSL; the idea that the man should always be in charge, turning his wife into an assistant and "training" her.


This is what disgusts me about modern feminism. There's no room for couples voluntarily living in the traditional way of the husband leading the household. It's just too upsetting for feminists that all women can't jump on the woman/man=fish/bicycle bandwagon. We've got to get out and silence these traditional couples. Get the torches!!


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> This is what disgusts me about modern feminism. There's no room for couples voluntarily living in the traditional way of the husband leading the household. It's just too upsetting for feminists that all women can't jump on the woman/man=fish/bicycle bandwagon. We've got to get out and silence these traditional couples. Get the torches!!


No one is saying you can't have his model, or shouldn't, if both parties are on board. It's the assumption that all relationships should be traditional and that all women secretly want a man to dominate them that gets called out, and rightly so.

The women I know are looking for an equal partnership. Most work, many are primary breadwinners, and are talented and resourceful. Such women are not seeking a return to the good ol' days when men ruled with an iron fist, and kept them barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. I can pretty much guaranteed it.


----------



## anchorwatch

Trickster said:


> MMSL was of no help... it made the marriage worse than what is was.
> 
> It did bring out some truths...My wife doesn't like sex and loves me like she would a life long friend...Sex a few times a month was doable for her...I wanted sex a few times a week.
> 
> My wife liked me because I was beta. Alpha doesn't register at all...
> 
> Because of it, I can go screw some other woman... She will give me sex on her terms when she wants...no more than that.
> 
> We have an open marriage now... When the time comes when I have sex with another woman, our sex life will be totally over...
> 
> D you ask? Her sister is an attorney and we are in debt...if I pretend that all is well, we get along great and i may even get periodic sex...
> 
> I don't even want it anymore...
> 
> So yes,on that level, I like MMSL...it forced communication...I just didn't like it the answers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There were only two people in your M. (at least before you pushed to open it)

Athol had nothing to do with the demise of your M.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

always_alone said:


> No one is saying you can't have his model, or shouldn't, if both parties are on board. It's the assumption that all relationships should be traditional and that all women secretly want a man to dominate them that gets called out, and rightly so.
> 
> The women I know are looking for an equal partnership. Most work, many are primary breadwinners, and are talented and resourceful. Such women are not seeking a return to the good ol' days when men ruled with an iron fist, and kept them barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. I can pretty much guaranteed it.


I agree with this.I totally appreciate those couples who feel most comfortable in the more traditional marriage roles. I also have appreciation for couples in non traditional marriage roles. As long as both people are happy...which seems rare in any instance.
I don't particularly appreciate men going around assuring each other of a woman's "secret wants". They aren't the wants of all women. 


It would be terribly upsetting if my husband picked up a copy of some book and tried to rule over me based on what he read. Division of power is the thing that keeps us happy together.

I have no hidden desire for my husband to suddenly rise up and pull a "get thee behind me,woman." thing on our marriage. I know he doesn't want that either.

Maybe that's bc I respect him,don't call him names,and don't treat him like a child? maybe if I was a spoiled rotten princess wife he'd feel the need to pick up these books and implement their teachings.

Maybe some women need a wake up call to show them just how poorly they treat their partners. I know you teach people how to treat you but the person being rotten needs to take responsibility for their part of it.
Just bc a man is a sweet,nice,do anything for his wife kind of guy doesn't mean his wife gets to be a jerk and step all over him. I don't think it should be the man's job to change himself with all these tips,tricks,and books. It should be the woman's job to stop acting like an ass hole and start appreciating her nice man. She should pick up a book and learn how to treat people better. She needs to figure out what's wrong with her that she can't be happy and in love with a good man. 

Anyway,I'm just thinking and typing. lol


ETA : one more thought,if either person is a passive aggressive whiner,they need to fix that asap whether it's with books or therapy.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ocotillo said:


> Some days I wonder if a woman who is insightful enough into basic human psychology to understand that would be the type pulling the silly sort of behavior this genre of books address in the first place. :scratchhead:


:iagree:

*BULLSEYE!*^^^

In marriage and personal relationships , it takes two to tango.
If a relationship dynamic is good then why would a man even want to read and try to implement Athol?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

always_alone said:


> Of course not, and she should absolutely be called on it.
> 
> It's not being called out that would have me out the door, it's being treated like a naughty child by someone who's trying to turn me into his "first officer".


So why not advise him to be out the door when she was treating him like a naughty child and turn him into her first officer?

Like I said, I personally would not have gone that route, but some folks don't respond until they are given a dose of their own medicine. But if some one leaves because I treat them like they are treating me, well that says something about them.


----------



## Conrad

I wondered where this thread went.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Tall Average Guy said:


> But if some one leaves because I treat them like they are treating me, well that says something about them.


So. True.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> No one is saying you can't have his model, or shouldn't, if both parties are on board. It's the assumption that all relationships should be traditional and that all women secretly want a man to dominate them that gets called out, and rightly so.


But no one, not even Athol, has ever argued that all relationships should be traditional, or that all women want to be led by a man.



> The women I know are looking for an equal partnership. Most work, many are primary breadwinners, and are talented and resourceful. Such women are not seeking a return to the good ol' days when men ruled with an iron fist, and kept them barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. I can pretty much guaranteed it.


You misunderstand Athol's plan. It's captain/first officer, not master/slave. I know some people can't understand the difference. But there really is one.

As an exercise, talk to one of your friends who has a management position, yet isn't the pinnacle of authority. A vice president of a company, perhaps. Ask that women if she feels that the president of the company wants her to be barefoot and pregnant in her office. Does the president require her to bring him his slippers and coffee? Probably not. The VP probably feels pretty important to the operation of the company. The company isn't split up into the president and a bunch of peons. There are important people with authority who don't have the ultimate authority.


----------



## always_alone

TheJourneyBegins said:


> If I tell her, in a straightforward manner, that I don't care for her verbal abuse, and that I won't address it in the future, she will simply say, "Yeah, whatever, I'm done with you".


All you need then is a bit of follow through:

"I'm sorry you feel that way" or

"Until you can talk to me like a normal human being, I'm done too" 

[exit stage left]

Most of the MMSL games you list seem like a completely pointless waste of time and effort to me. What absolutely does stand out is the overwhelming anxiety to please in the hopes of a bit of sex. This strikes me as utterly debilitating.

Even in your efforts to "fix" the problem, you're still focused on her reactions and how you can "joke" her into a better mood, or keep the door open for sex, or get her to behave better. And why oh why doesn't she respond the way you want?

But really, the issue is you don't like the way you're being treated, and you need to make that clear. In. no. uncertain. terms. She may "rebel" or put you down, or refuse sex with you, it's true. You can't pull her puppet strings in the way MMSL pretends you can.

But you can refuse to sit there and smile while she verbally abuses you.


----------



## Conrad

Yet, in this same thread in the other subsection, you said you don't want your husband to enable you.

Without this sort of material, how would he ever grasp that?




ScarletBegonias said:


> I agree with this.I totally appreciate those couples who feel most comfortable in the more traditional marriage roles. I also have appreciation for couples in non traditional marriage roles. As long as both people are happy...which seems rare in any instance.
> I don't particularly appreciate men going around assuring each other of a woman's "secret wants". They aren't the wants of all women.
> 
> 
> It would be terribly upsetting if my husband picked up a copy of some book and tried to rule over me based on what he read. Division of power is the thing that keeps us happy together.
> 
> I have no hidden desire for my husband to suddenly rise up and pull a "get thee behind me,woman." thing on our marriage. I know he doesn't want that either.
> 
> Maybe that's bc I respect him,don't call him names,and don't treat him like a child? maybe if I was a spoiled rotten princess wife he'd feel the need to pick up these books and implement their teachings.
> 
> Maybe some women need a wake up call to show them just how poorly they treat their partners. I know you teach people how to treat you but the person being rotten needs to take responsibility for their part of it.
> Just bc a man is a sweet,nice,do anything for his wife kind of guy doesn't mean his wife gets to be a jerk and step all over him. I don't think it should be the man's job to change himself with all these tips,tricks,and books. It should be the woman's job to stop acting like an ass hole and start appreciating her nice man. She should pick up a book and learn how to treat people better. She needs to figure out what's wrong with her that she can't be happy and in love with a good man.
> 
> Anyway,I'm just thinking and typing. lol
> 
> 
> ETA : one more thought,if either person is a passive aggressive whiner,they need to fix that asap whether it's with books or therapy.


----------



## anchorwatch

OP, 

You're to focused on your W's reactions.

All of these books present ideas to improve "you", not your W. 

All of them tell you improvements take time. 

All of them say your W may not care. 

This isn't just about sex or being in charge. It's not about subjugating anyone either. It's about taking a leadership role in your life. If you were on NMMNG forum you would have been advised there was a lot more to learn than just balancing your alpha/beta mix. They include keeping yourself healthy, getting rid of bad habits, learning healthy personal boundaries, understanding relationships skills and how to apply them, and more. Not only in your M, but in all aspects of your personal life. There are many other books there, that are suggested to learn other life skills so you learn to be a whole person. Have you read any of those? 

Five Love Languages?
The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work?
How to Win Friends & Influence People?
Boundaries?
When I Say No, I Feel Guilty?
Love Must be Tough?
How to Stop Worrying and Start Living? 
Awareness?

What works for one, may not work for all. We are all separate individuals, in different situations and dynamics. IMO all these ideas only work to improve one's self and in return their life situation, which includes marriage along with other relationships. IOW, if she doesn't like to be slapped an the a$$, don't do it.


----------



## always_alone

Tall Average Guy said:


> So why not advise him to be out the door when she was treating him like a naughty child and turn him into her first officer?
> 
> Like I said, I personally would not have gone that route, but some folks don't respond until they are given a dose of their own medicine. But if some one leaves because I treat them like they are treating me, well that says something about them.


My point was simply that the "fix" can blow up a marriage as easily as the problem. The sort of "medicine" advocated here is not so that she too can see what it is to be verbally abused and taken for granted; it is intended to make her respect him and remember why she found him attractive in the first place.

Stupid game playing and putting someone down are not, IMHO, very good ways to garner respect or attraction. YMMV.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Conrad said:


> Yet, in this same thread in the other subsection, you said you don't want your husband to enable you.
> 
> Without this sort of material, how would he ever grasp that?


He doesn't need to read a book to be treated fairly and with respect. I give that to him regardless of my bpd bc I handle it. Enabling me is when I melt down and he tells me "it's ok sweetie,everyone has those feelings." He doesn't need a book but I needed books and counseling to improve. He doesn't need to improve,I needed to improve.

There's a difference between what happens to me and my actions when I am triggered vs what these women do to their husbands so please don't compare.

ETA: If my meltdowns included name calling,cruelty,yelling,screaming,and basically treating him like dirt,I'd FULLY expect him to learn how to stand up to that using whatever means at his disposal be it a book or therapy or assertiveness training. Pretty sure I made that clear in my longer post though.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

always_alone said:


> My point was simply that the "fix" can blow up a marriage as easily as the problem. The sort of "medicine" advocated here is not so that she too can see what it is to be verbally abused and taken for granted; it is intended to make her respect him and remember why she found him attractive in the first place.


Yes, the fix can blow up the marriage. Sometimes, that is the best outcome. Standing up to her is about expecting respect. How to stand up effectively varies by person and relationship.



> Stupid game playing and putting someone down are not, IMHO, very good ways to garner respect or attraction. YMMV.


They don't work for you. Unfortunately, they do work for others. I had a friend in high school who was this way. She was nasty, even to her friends, and explaining it just did not work. The only thing that did was when I turned the tables on her. When I returned her poor behavior, she got upset, but then quit it, at least as directed to me or my friends.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> You misunderstand Athol's plan. It's captain/first officer, not master/slave. I know some people can't understand the difference. But there really is one.


A marriage is not a military operation or a corporation. There is no one party on whom all responsibility falls, nor one person who has risked or invested most. There is no "ultimate" authority.

It's a partnership of two. Now some women are happy to abdicate their authority over their own lives, or who will happily submit to what their man thinks is best for the partnership.

But many, many women will not. They will wish to do what *they* think best for themselves, determine their careers and follow their ambitions, and they will want equal say in the direction the marriage takes, lifestyle, and long term goals.

Trying to push these women into submission will most likely push them out the door. If that's you goal, fine. But let's not pretend it is in the best interests of the marriage.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Tall Average Guy said:


> They don't work for you. Unfortunately, they do work for others. I had a friend in high school who was this way. She was nasty, even to her friends, and explaining it just did not work. The only thing that did was when I turned the tables on her. When I returned her poor behavior, she got upset, but then quit it, at least as directed to me or my friends.


My mom is this way I tried everything to get her to see what she was doing. Nothing worked.So I treated her like she treated me.I became the bad guy being trashed talked to our family by her and she hasn't spoken to me since last fall.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

always_alone said:


> But you can refuse to sit there and smile while she verbally abuses you.


This is where No More Mr. Nice Guy may be the better read right now. Standing up for himself and disconnecting the emotional hose sounds like the things he needs to do.


----------



## Conrad

always_alone said:


> A marriage is not a military operation or a corporation. There is no one party on whom all responsibility falls, nor one person who has risked or invested most. There is no "ultimate" authority.


This all sounds wonderful until you realize you're in a power struggle - not of your own making.

Then what do you do?


----------



## always_alone

Tall Average Guy said:


> They don't work for you. Unfortunately, they do work for others. I had a friend in high school who was this way. She was nasty, even to her friends, and explaining it just did not work. The only thing that did was when I turned the tables on her. When I returned her poor behavior, she got upset, but then quit it, at least as directed to me or my friends.


I think in some cases a person might not quite realize how hurtful or obnoxious they are being, and may need to experience it for themselves to truly learn that lesson.

But no one is (or should, IMHO) telling OP that he should turn around and verbally abuse his wife in the way she does to him. And it's not like she is slapping him on the ass while telling him she needs to punish him because his mama ain't there to do it.

She isn't really treating him like a naughty child, although she does seem to be very selfish and rude.

All of which is a long way of saying, I can't see that turnabout makes a whole lot of sense in this context.


----------



## Conrad

FrenchFry said:


> Suck it up and talk it out?


Tried that for 4 years.

Emotionally, that was interpreted by her as weakness and that I was unable to handle conflict.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Wow, I've triggered a really interesting response. I AM working on me, but I HAVE BEEN focused on sex......unfortunately with the way things have been between us it has been the only conceivable reason that I have been putting up with her behavior. I don't want to control her. I would love an equal partnership. I help her in all aspects of dealing with her fibromyalgia. I cook, clean, do dishes, drive her and her kids around to their events when she's too tired to drive. However, I'm walked all over. Constantly. I have been questioned by my therapist, my children, my parents, my friends, and my children's therapist as to why I am staying with her when she treats me so horribly in my own house. I came to the NMMNG approach because I was so disgusted with myself and the example of tolerating this sort of thing that I'm setting for my kids.

I don't have much of a say as to what goes on in the house unless I want to argue about it, then I'm a dictator. Almost every conversation turns into a semantic argument. She is constantly pointing out the flaws in my parenting and in my kids, and in the way I talk, my word choice (I have 2 graduate degrees), my "professorial tone" when I'm talking about things I'm expert in... and I admit I've been afraid of arguing with her or pissing her off because arguing/pissing her off/disagreeing = no sex and I guess in my mind the major draw to have her in the house is the proximity of an available female who I am involved with to the degree that we get naked with each other (sex or no sex notwithstanding). Sounds pretty FU, no? I'm awakening to the realization of just how much, and I'm detaching the hose and detaching from outcome as well.

Even HER parents have asked her to treat me better, when we've been out with them and they see the demeaning manner in which she treats me like a child. I make 5 times her salary, and pay all of the bills in MY house (into which she moved after I renovated the basement for her kids), and I have only recently gotten her to pay $50/week for her own gas.

Anyway, this all sounds like whining; however I want you all to know that I would LOVE an equal partnership where things are discussed with the best interests of each other at heart; not where I have to worry about each word I chose as to whether it will be taken wrong, and where I can't talk about anything important after 9pm because it's "her" time. And rather than her obsessively reading romance novels and spending all of what free time she has hanging out watching tv and gaming with her kids, I'd like to spend quality time with her. She says we'll have plenty of time to do so after the kids are out of the house (my youngest and her youngest are both 13, I'm 56 and she's 44), but I'd like to have fun and do things with her before then.

I'm feeling more and more like a paycheck and a house, which is why, I suppose, I react so badly to being treated like dirt.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

always_alone said:


> She isn't really treating him like a naughty child, although she does seem to be very selfish and rude.
> 
> All of which is a long way of saying, I can't see that turnabout makes a whole lot of sense in this context.


Interesting. I equated the two actions in my mind, but rereading, it is not clear that she was treating him as a child (though possible). Looks like I read a bit too much into the initial post.


----------



## Conrad

FrenchFry said:


> Looks like one size doesn't fit all.


I totally agree.

"Talking it out" sounds great - until it doesn't work, and you realize the results are counterproductive.

If you display emotional strength, the time to talk will eventually come. But, like with so many things, she's ready to hear when she asks the questions... and not a moment before.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Wow, I've triggered a really interesting response. I AM working on me, but I HAVE BEEN focused on sex......unfortunately with the way things have been between us it has been the only conceivable reason that I have been putting up with her behavior. I don't want to control her. I would love an equal partnership. I help her in all aspects of dealing with her fibromyalgia. I cook, clean, do dishes, drive her and her kids around to their events when she's too tired to drive. However, I'm walked all over. Constantly. I have been questioned by my therapist, my children, my parents, my friends, and my children's therapist as to why I am staying with her when she treats me so horribly in my own house. I came to the NMMNG approach because I was so disgusted with myself and the example of tolerating this sort of thing that I'm setting for my kids.
> 
> I don't have much of a say as to what goes on in the house unless I want to argue about it, then I'm a dictator. Almost every conversation turns into a semantic argument. She is constantly pointing out the flaws in my parenting and in my kids, and in the way I talk, my word choice (I have 2 graduate degrees), my "professorial tone" when I'm talking about things I'm expert in... and I admit I've been afraid of arguing with her or pissing her off because arguing/pissing her off/disagreeing = no sex and I guess in my mind the major draw to have her in the house is the proximity of an available female who I am involved with to the degree that we get naked with each other (sex or no sex notwithstanding). Sounds pretty FU, no? I'm awakening to the realization of just how much, and I'm detaching the hose and detaching from outcome as well.
> 
> Even HER parents have asked her to treat me better, when we've been out with them and they see the demeaning manner in which she treats me like a child. I make 5 times her salary, and pay all of the bills in MY house (into which she moved after I renovated the basement for her kids), and I have only recently gotten her to pay $50/week for her own gas.
> 
> Anyway, this all sounds like whining; however I want you all to know that I would LOVE an equal partnership where things are discussed with the best interests of each other at heart; not where I have to worry about each word I chose as to whether it will be taken wrong, and where I can't talk about anything important after 9pm because it's "her" time. And rather than her obsessively reading romance novels and spending all of what free time she has hanging out watching tv and gaming with her kids, I'd like to spend quality time with her. She says we'll have plenty of time to do so after the kids are out of the house (my youngest and her youngest are both 13, I'm 56 and she's 44), but I'd like to have fun and do things with her before then.
> 
> I'm feeling more and more like a paycheck and a house, which is why, I suppose, I react so badly to being treated like dirt.


Seems like she's just a very miserable person who won't be happy no matter what you do.

So you run through all these exercises,improve yourself,etc...and things don't improve in the marriage bc of who she is as a person.Then what?


----------



## Conrad

ScarletBegonias said:


> Seems like she's just a very miserable person who won't be happy no matter what you do.
> 
> So you run through all these exercises,improve yourself,etc...and things don't improve in the marriage bc of who she is as a person.Then what?


Then he'll know what to do.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Conrad said:


> Then he'll know what to do.


ok,I'm Asking him what he'll do.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

PHTlump said:


> This is what disgusts me about modern feminism. There's no room for couples voluntarily living in the traditional way of the husband leading the household. It's just too upsetting for feminists that all women can't jump on the woman/man=fish/bicycle bandwagon. We've got to get out and silence these traditional couples. Get the torches!!


:lol::lol:

Not agreeing with Athol Kay does not make me a feminist who doesn't need a man. I just don't think it is healthy or fair for one partner to wield all the power in a marriage. That is far more reasonable than this "Officer/first mate" nonsense. I would not have married my husband if I did not need him. 

Also, there _*are *_some traditional aspects of my marriage; I proudly took my husband's last name. I also take pleasure in cooking for him. I listen to my husband's opinions and wishes just as he does the same for me. I have had my share of man haters taking shots at me for doing these things. 

It is so easy to accuse a woman of being an angry feminist, just because she doesn't agree with MMSL. This is just as bad as women who hate men.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> A marriage is not a military operation or a corporation.


I didn't say it was. I used an analogy to explain how two competent people can cooperate together while having unequal levels of authority without automatically becoming slave and overseer. If you can't see that, we should just agree to disagree.



> Trying to push these women into submission will most likely push them out the door. If that's you goal, fine. But let's not pretend it is in the best interests of the marriage.


There are four basic possibilities in marriage.

First, we have the Nice Guy who treats his wife as an equal partner and is rewarded with a blissful marriage full of all the sex he can handle. This guy is not buying Athol's book or on TAM trying to improve his marriage.

Second, we have the captain who treats his wife as his first officer and is rewarded similarly to the first man. Just like the first guy, he's not looking for less sex or ways to screw up the good thing he's got going.

Third, we have the captain who treats his wife as his first officer, yet his wife refuses to be led. She resents him and wants a marriage where she is either equal, or superior, to her husband. This guy isn't happy. But, he's not really Athol's market because Athol would just be telling him to do what he's already doing.

Fourth, we have the Nice Guy who treats his wife as an equal partner, or even lets her lead, and is mistreated and has sex withheld. This guy isn't happy. This guy is Athol's market.

Now, it isn't a given that transforming a Nice Guy into a captain will automatically improve his marriage, but I think it's usually worth a shot. Often, it works wonders. What will most definitely NOT work is advising a Nice Guy whose wife treats him poorly to continue being a Nice Guy and wish and hope that his wife will change her behavior.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> *BULLSEYE!*^^^
> 
> In marriage and personal relationships , it takes two to tango.
> If a relationship dynamic is good then why would a man even want to read and try to implement Athol?


:iagree: This is how my husband feels. He is secure enough in his manhood without needing to beat his chest and dominate me all the time. 

A real man can handle a woman who keeps him on his toes with strong opinions.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

@FrenchFry Yes, they have in the past. Depends on her mood, which isn't obvious and is extremely changeable.

@Scarlet At that point, it will be time to sit down with her and explain that the situation is intolerable, and that despite significant effort on my part, I haven't seen it improve and don't expect it to. We've already had a talk regarding the fact that we are both going to try very hard to put our best foot forward from now on, and that this was my final try at making it work. Since she knows this, I'll simply say let her know that I feel that we've done our best, but that there does not seem to be an advantage for us to be together; not emotionally, not financially, not physically, and that it's time to make alternate plans.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> @Scarlet At that point, it will be time to sit down with her and explain that the situation is intolerable, and that despite significant effort on my part, I haven't seen it improve and don't expect it to. We've already had a talk regarding the fact that we are both going to try very hard to put our best foot forward from now on, and that this was my final try at making it work. Since she knows this, I'll simply say let her know that I feel that we've done our best, but that there does not seem to be an advantage for us to be together; not emotionally, not financially, not physically, and that it's time to make alternate plans.


:smthumbup:


----------



## PHTlump

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> It is so easy to accuse a woman of being an angry feminist, just because she doesn't agree with MMSL. This is just as bad as women who hate men.


I don't accuse all women who disagree with MMSL of being angry feminists. I have always said that no one approach works for every woman. However, I see a big difference between stating that traditional marriage wouldn't work for you, and arguing that no one else should choose to have a traditional marriage. It's the latter that I define as angry feminism.


----------



## Giro flee

I don't know very many first mates or vp's who want to remain in second place. They are usually trying to move up the ladder. Why would we constantly compare marriage to this? I can be respectful to my boss at work, doesn't mean I'm not looking to take his job or think I would be better at it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

PHTlump said:


> I didn't say it was. I used an analogy to explain how two competent people can cooperate together while having unequal levels of authority without automatically becoming slave and overseer. If you can't see that, we should just agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> There are four basic possibilities in marriage.
> 
> First, we have the Nice Guy who treats his wife as an equal partner and is rewarded with a blissful marriage full of all the sex he can handle. This guy is not buying Athol's book or on TAM trying to improve his marriage.
> 
> Second, we have the captain who treats his wife as his first officer and is rewarded similarly to the first man. Just like the first guy, he's not looking for less sex or ways to screw up the good thing he's got going.
> 
> Third, we have the captain who treats his wife as his first officer, yet his wife refuses to be led. She resents him and wants a marriage where she is either equal, or superior, to her husband. This guy isn't happy. But, he's not really Athol's market because Athol would just be telling him to do what he's already doing.
> 
> Fourth, we have the Nice Guy who treats his wife as an equal partner, or even lets her lead, and is mistreated and has sex withheld. This guy isn't happy. This guy is Athol's market.


You missed one. 

Fifth we have 2 grown ups who don't want a leader or need to be led. The notion of leadership and the reality of attraction are completely unrelated.


----------



## naiveonedave

MMSL works, because the author read stuff here and developed a plan based on what people were doing that worked. Will it always work? No, some men implement the changes wrong or for the wrong reason. No, some women aren't going to be happy no matter what. 

But if you are the doormat mister nice guy or the arrogant "alpha" with no soft (Beta) skills in a M that has severe issues, you can learn how to improve yourself to give your M a chance.


----------



## PHTlump

NobodySpecial said:


> You missed one.
> 
> Fifth we have 2 grown ups who don't want a leader or need to be led. The notion of leadership and the reality of attraction are completely unrelated.


That was my first scenario. And, just because you aren't attracted to men who can lead you doesn't mean that all women share your preferences.


----------



## naiveonedave

BTW -the 1st officer typically leads about 45% of the time, so it isn't a one sided scenario. Just an anology to get the point across.

And in my experience, there are many situations where the woman wants to be led, almost universally. Example - what restaraunt to go to. If left to my wife or any girl I dated, this decision could take days. When I put on the captain's hat and asked what she might like for dinner and then choose a place based on her feedback mixed with my opinions, decision is made quickly, we eat and have a good time.


----------



## PHTlump

Giro flee said:


> I don't know very many first mates or vp's who want to remain in second place. They are usually trying to move up the ladder. Why would we constantly compare marriage to this? I can be respectful to my boss at work, doesn't mean I'm not looking to take his job or think I would be better at it.


There are ambitious people who want to be the big boss. However, that is more of a male trait. My wife is number 2 at her company. She doesn't really want to be number 1. It would be more money. But, it would also be longer hours, fewer vacations, and less freedom. She doesn't want her phone ringing at midnight. She likes being the first officer both at work and at home.


----------



## P51Geo1980

PHTlump said:


> This is what disgusts me about modern feminism. There's no room for couples voluntarily living in the traditional way of the husband leading the household. It's just too upsetting for feminists that all women can't jump on the woman/man=fish/bicycle bandwagon. We've got to get out and silence these traditional couples. Get the torches!!


My STBXW is a strong woman but is also a complete *****. Enacting MMSL or MAP or whatever other idiotic acronym would have gotten me nowhere because...well...she's a *****. It comes down to the personality of the husband/wife and has nothing to do with dominance/submissiveness or alpha/beta.

This has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with respect. 

People who ascribe to Kay's unsubstantiated theories fall into two categories:

1. Men who are incredibly insecure with themselves and need to feel powerful in their relationship by dominating their wife/partner.

2. Men who are compensating and looking for a way to fix a poor choice in a spouse.

Feminism is about women being superior to men - what you are ascribing is the same thing but with men being superior to women.

Men and women are equal - marriage is a partnership of equals. There are very few women today who want to be dominated by their husbands and there are very few men who think it's appropriate to dominate their wives. Sure this dynamic will work for SOME, but if you look around at actual couples you'll see that the "traditional" roles no longer work - and rightly so. If I'm ever blessed with daughters there's no way in hell I'd want them to be submissive to their husbands - they're people and they deserve to be treated equally.


I wonder why you are so insecure with yourself that you are afraid of a strong woman? I also wonder why you call it feminism because a woman wants to be equal in a marriage and doesn't tolerate physical punishment? I also wonder why you consider it ok for the male to be dominant but if the female sticks up for herself you call it feminism? I actually find your responses both amusing and enlightening regarding the mindset of those gullible enough to fall for Kay's ill-conceived ideas.


----------



## naiveonedave

P51- the group that needs Kays principles need them and they work, whether you agree or not.

The part of feminism that hurts these men (the doormats) is they are taught to be that way to get what they want (read MMSL or NMMNG, it is plain as day to me why this happens to men) and it doesn't work for them. This is also why some of the women on here struggle with the capt/1st officer anology. They don't want to go against what they have been taught, even if it is what they really want. Also, if you read the book, the author describes it as a 55/45 leadership role, not a 100 to 0. THat is a big and key difference.


----------



## naiveonedave

FF - did he ask your opinion? Because the capt better make sure the 1st officer is on board. If you want Chinese and he cooks up surf and turf w/o asking or ignoring what you want that is on him and Kay would totally agree. If you want Chinese and he doesn't, then he should discuss alternatives. Still decide, maybe, but discuss for sure.


----------



## IndyTMI

naiveonedave said:


> MMSL works, because the author read stuff here and developed a plan based on what people were doing that worked. Will it always work? No, some men implement the changes wrong or for the wrong reason. No, some women aren't going to be happy no matter what.
> 
> But if you are the doormat mister nice guy or the arrogant "alpha" with no soft (Beta) skills in a M that has severe issues, you can learn how to improve yourself to give your M a chance.


It worked for me...not in correcting my marriage as I had hoped, but instead proved that she wasn't willing to change her radical behavior towards me, so the relationship came to an end.

I didn't follow the advice correctly, but ultimately didn't need to because she wasn't willing to even come to the table as an adult, so I was fighting a losing battle that couldn't be won in the perspective of correcting bad behavior.


----------



## ocotillo

P51Geo1980 said:


> People who ascribe to Kay's unsubstantiated theories fall into two categories:


Both of your categories are male. How would you categorize women who subscribe to Kay's views?


----------



## naiveonedave

FF - if you are right, he should D straight up. Doing MMSL first sets you up for the next LTR vis a vis not doing it.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

@French I'ts worked about 50% of the time. And to be clear, this is not my first choice of behavior, I was just being playful and the taps on her ass were lighter than would even make any sound. Accompanied by a playful...."Naughty". 

My wife's been married twice before, once to college sweetie (5yrs) once to her kids dad (12 yrs). She's friends with her last hubby, and had him stay with us for a bit when he was looking for work and before he moved out of town, but tells me it was so bad that she had to leave him in fear for her life. Strange dissonance. Anyway, she has her kids full time, and he doesn't do visitations. She has fibromyalgia, and is in some pain all the time. I would not classify her as a happy person at this point. When we met, she did not have the fibro; she was diagnosed about 3 years after we met.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Conrad said:


> "Talking it out" sounds great...


...that is ,_if _ you have a partner that's willing to talk it out and who's mature enough to admit that some of the responsibility for the dysfunctional dynamic rests squarely on her lap.

But even before accepting part of the responsibility, she must be willing to admit that there's a problem.

People who abuse their power, never _think_ there is a problem.
_
" Power corrupts , absolute power corrupts absolutely..."_


----------



## P51Geo1980

ocotillo said:


> Both of your categories are male. How would you categorize women who subscribe to Kay's views?


Same as the guys - weak and insecure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

Caribbean Man said:


> ...that is ,_if _ you have a partner that's willing to talk it out and who's mature enough to admit that some of the responsibility for the dysfunctional dynamic rests squarely on her lap.
> 
> But even before accepting part of the responsibility, she must be willing to admit that there's a problem.
> 
> People who abuse their power, never _think_ there is a problem.


One of the things I have a pretty hard time understanding is why you would WANT to be with someone who won't/can't face a grown up life. Now if it is a matter of changing a dysfunctional dynamic into a workable one that can be sustained over time, then I totally get it. You want to change the default dynamic from Nice Guy/ doormat to something else. In my case, I needed to reset the expectation that I was NOT his mother nor his housekeeper or finance department. But I would not have wanted to STAY in that full time limit setting role. It seems that some posters ARE in a full time, show them whose boss mode. That just sounds exhausting and not very fulfilling from a relationship stand point. Don't know if that is you.


----------



## naiveonedave

NS - good point, it is not about being the boss 100% And that is not what the capt/1st officer model is either.


----------



## ocotillo

P51Geo1980 said:


> Same as the guys - weak and insecure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So Kay is not nakedly pandering to an exclusively male personality flaw? He's actually addressing a personality flaw that both men and women may possess? If that's true, then I'm not sure how we could get around the logical corollary that there is in fact a demographic segment for which the book actually works.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NobodySpecial said:


> One of the things I have a pretty hard time understanding is why you would WANT to be with someone who won't/can't face a grown up life. Now if it is a matter of changing a dysfunctional dynamic into a workable one that can be sustained over time, then I totally get it. You want to change the default dynamic from Nice Guy/ doormat to something else. In my case, I needed to reset the expectation that I was NOT his mother nor his housekeeper or finance department. But I would not have wanted to STAY in that full time limit setting role. It seems that some posters ARE in a full time, show them whose boss mode. That just sounds exhausting and not very fulfilling from a relationship stand point. Don't know if that is you.


For the record , our relationship is not one where those type of power struggles occur. There is a constant exchange of power, a give and take sort of scenario , so that sort of dysfunctional relationship dynamic never set in.
When we disagree on things we tend to talk it out.

Maybe I got lucky with my wife because we were almost a perfect fit . We knew exactly the type of life we wanted from each other , from our marriage , and were willing to work towards it.

IMO, a lot of power imbalances in relationships is rooted in narcissism, whether male or female holds the power.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Caribbean Man said:


> For the record , our relationship is not one where those type of power struggles occur. There is a constant exchange of power, a give and take sort of scenario , so that sort of dysfunctional relationship dynamic never set in.
> When we disagree on things we tend to talk it out.
> 
> Maybe I got lucky with my wife because we were almost a perfect fit . We knew exactly the type of life we wanted from each other , from our marriage , and were willing to work towards it.
> 
> IMO, a lot of power imbalances in relationships is rooted in narcissism.


I wonder if people (men?) attempt to fix unfixable power struggles using tools such as MMSL where attraction, door mat issues are not really the root cause?


----------



## P51Geo1980

ocotillo said:


> So Kay is not nakedly pandering to an exclusively male personality flaw? He's actually addressing a personality flaw that both men and women may possess? If that's true, then I'm not sure how we could get around the logical corollary that there is in fact a demographic segment for which the book actually works.


The books are specifically written for men - "Married MAN Sex Life," "MALE Action Plan." They're not written for women to become equals in a marriage - they're written for men to assert dominance over their female partners. Again, he's come up with a rather genius marketing ploy to make himself money. Most people, in the real world, shrug off this pop-psychology.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder if people (men?) attempt to fix unfixable power struggles using tools such as MMSL where attraction, door mat issues are not really the root cause?


:iagree:


----------



## Caribbean Man

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder if people (men?) attempt to fix unfixable power struggles using tools such as MMSL where attraction, door mat issues are not really the root cause?


I can't disagree with this.

Some men find themselves in that situation, realizing that something is desperately wrong, grasp at anything.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Caribbean Man said:


> I can't disagree with this.
> 
> Some men find themselves in that situation, realizing that something is desperately wrong, grasp at anything.


Why do people do this though? Fear of what will happen if they leave?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> A real man can handle a woman who keeps him on his toes with strong opinions.


Strong opinions are one thing. Do we think AK's wife doesn't have strong opinions? Allowing a woman to walk all over you is something else.

OP's wife seems to think he should ask her if she wants sex before he makes advances. Why should he ask her permission to pursue his wants? If he wants sex, he should just make the advance. This is one of probably a host of control mechanisms she applies to him. Notice the follow-up to the effect of "I might have had sex, but what you did is such a turn-off" - thereby guaranteeing she keeps full control and he remains completely submissive to her. Twisting the screws. As if he was "wrong" for acting of his own want.

IMO, she is unhealthy, and his asserting himself will probably mean the end of their marriage. That doesn't mean MMSL's advice is wrong. It depends on whether OP would prefer to remain married under her heel or be an assertive single man. MMSL would end this marriage because OP would stop kowtowing to her and putting up with abuse and these stupid control mechanisms.

It isn't "save the marriage at all costs". One stays in a bad marriage because of one's own weaknesses. Sometimes addressing those weaknesses will rightfully spell the end for a bad marriage.


----------



## happy as a clam

I am a woman, and I think the issue is a bit more complex than just becoming more Alpha-caveman in your approach. It's about combining passion WITH aggression, all in a way that is irresistible to your mate.

I hope this isn't TMI, but here are a couple of examples: Sometimes in the middle of the night, my SO will wake me up out of a dead sleep and pull my hand down to his "stuff." Hard as a rock, then he'll whisper in my ear, very passionately, "You want to sit on that?" as he pulls me over on top. Gets me every time, the passion mixed with his intense desire at the moment. Aggressive but passionate.

Other times I'll be getting dressed and he'll say, "Don't put that on." Me: "Why not?" Him (as he's guiding me towards the bed) "Because I want to make love to you." Gets me every time too 

Rather than announcing ahead of time what he's going to do, he catches me by surprise, sometimes when I least expect it. That surprise element definitely ramps up the passion and desire.

Sorry if that's too personal, but it's all about demonstrating his very male power all mixed in with passion. It creates intensity which is good. By the way, it works both ways, I often do the same to him. Perhaps as the desire increases, your wife will feel more comfortable reciprocating.

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## anchorwatch

When the boat rocks the first thing you do is grab for the rails.


----------



## ocotillo

P51Geo1980 said:


> The books are specifically written for men - "Married MAN Sex Life," "MALE Action Plan." It's not written for women to become equals in a marriage - they're written for men to assert dominance over their female partners.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand that, but if you have the misfortune to be married to a woman who thinks Michael Corleone would make an ideal husband, what do you do? (Besides divorce)

The book isn't written for men who *want* to dominate their wives. The book is written for men who've had it pounded into their heads that simply having a strong opinion about what restaurant they eat at is wrong.


----------



## sinnister

P51Geo1980 said:


> The books are specifically written for men - "Married MAN Sex Life," "MALE Action Plan." They're not written for women to become equals in a marriage - they're written for men to assert dominance over their female partners. Again, he's come up with a rather genius marketing ploy to make himself money. Most people, in the real world, shrug off this pop-psychology.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're sort of right.

Yes it's pop-psychology. No it's not written for men to assert dominance over a female. That's fear mongering.

It's designed to take a man who is so thoroughly disrespected, beaten and broken by the dynamic of his relationship that pits him at the very bottom with little power and make him gain some of that power back. 

If you think it's designed for any man to subjugate a female you are DELIBERATELY missing the point.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Shouldn't there be more attention paid to WHY these women feel the need to treat their partners this way? Teaching them that's not how you treat people? 
If that problem was fixed,the man being abused wouldn't need to change a thing bc he'd be with a woman who treated him with love and kindness.


----------



## anchorwatch

ScarletBegonias said:


> Shouldn't there be more attention paid to WHY these women feel the need to treat their partners this way? If that problem was fixed,the man being abused wouldn't need to change a thing bc he'd be with a woman who treated him with love and kindness.


SB, 

Who's going to fix that problem? 

He can only change himself and what he'll tolerate.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

anchorwatch said:


> SB,
> 
> Who's going to fix that problem?
> 
> He can only change himself and what he'll tolerate.


she should fix the problem,she is the one creating the problem. I realize he can't change her but damn,she needs to step up and be a woman and stop acting this way. Why can't people do this? Why is it so friggin hard to step back and say "wow I really treat this man like dirt.WTF is wrong with me? This doesn't make me happy and it doesn't make me feel good inside. How do I fix this?"


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

The perception that MMSL is about the man dominating the woman, or otherwise being superior to her is incorrect. 

MMSL is aimed at taking a man who willfully allows himself to be HER inferior and returning him to a place of assertive equality. She is not better than him, and he will lead as he sees fit, pursue his needs of his own accord, and act of his own will not subject to her permission. It is about regaining himself, after he lost himself in his attempts to make her happy - putting her needs above his own.

Restoring the power balance in an existing relationship dynamic may mean the end of the relationship if she rejects his assertiveness or clings to her control mechanisms. Its bound to at least be a struggle... but one that such a man should pursue even at the cost of the marriage, lest he be satisfied to continue being her doormat.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

happy as a clam said:


> I am a woman, and I think the issue is a bit more complex than just becoming more Alpha-caveman in your approach. It's about combining passion WITH aggression, all in a way that is irresistible to your mate.
> 
> I hope this isn't TMI, but here are a couple of examples: Sometimes in the middle of the night, my SO will wake me up out of a dead sleep and pull my hand down to his "stuff." Hard as a rock, then he'll whisper in my ear, very passionately, "You want to sit on that?" as he pulls me over on top. Gets me every time, the passion mixed with his intense desire at the moment. Aggressive but passionate.
> 
> Other times I'll be getting dressed and he'll say, "Don't put that on." Me: "Why not?" Him (as he's guiding me towards the bed) "Because I want to make love to you." Gets me every time too
> 
> Rather than announcing ahead of time what he's going to do, he catches me by surprise, sometimes when I least expect it. That surprise element definitely ramps up the passion and desire.
> 
> Sorry if that's too personal, but it's all about demonstrating his very male power all mixed in with passion. It creates intensity which is good. By the way, it works both ways, I often do the same to him. Perhaps as the desire increases, your wife will feel more comfortable reciprocating.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...


That sounds wonderful. I've also tried those things. Unfortunately, what would drive me wild, as it does you, just is VERY irritating to her. The middle of the night thing gets me an extremely angry wife. When she's asleep, she does NOT want to be woken up for any reason, even if my kid knocked on the door with a 1 unit nosebleed (true story, she was livid). When I once woke her just as you described, she called me arrogant and abusive (in that I would cause her to lose sleep and thus be tired in the morning). Getting dressed to....gently dissuade her from putting something on and say, "You look so good just as you are, you're driving me crazy...let me show you how much you get to me"...and try to lead her to the bed and she goes irritatedly through a liturgy of everything she has to do, and that I always do this at inopportune times yada yada yada. Or, more simply, "No....Noooooo c'mon, lets get going....I don't WANT to.......".

She continues to tell me she needs to feel emotionally close to me before she can have sex; I, however, need to HAVE SEX to feel emotionally close. I understand where she's coming from, but we're in a rather tumultuous period right now. I need to give up the desire for sex as a goal and focus on the goal of improving me.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

ScarletBegonias said:


> Shouldn't there be more attention paid to WHY these women feel the need to treat their partners this way? Teaching them that's not how you treat people?
> If that problem was fixed,the man being abused wouldn't need to change a thing bc he'd be with a woman who treated him with love and kindness.


The principle here is that you can't control or change other people. You can only work on yourself. If he doesn't handle his issues, he would likely end up in this situation with almost any woman.

This is going to be a terribly received analogy since the comparison is to dogs, but I'm a fan of Caesar Milan - the Dog Whisperer guy. One key lesson of his is how your own energy often causes the bad behaviors of your dog. I believe this sort of thing may be a more widely applicable principle. Unassertive behavior as parents gives rise to ill behaved children. Unassertive behavior as a spouse gives rise to ill behaving spouses (notice I think it applies both ways).

Lack of assertiveness is a destabilizer and gives rise to all sorts of problematic behavior in others. It encourages regular people to become abusive.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> It encourages regular people to become abusive.


If true, this is incredibly sad. However, I think it is true.


----------



## wilderness

The way your wife speaks to you indicates an extreme level of disrespect. I would concentrate on getting your sex rank higher than your wife, then revisit all of those little 'tricks'. That stuff generally doesn't work at all if your wife isn't attracted to you and if your wife doesn't respect you.

For the record, if you are letting your wife speak to you like that, that's not alpha, let's beta or even worse.


----------



## happy as a clam

TheJourneyBegins said:


> That sounds wonderful. I've also tried those things. Unfortunately, what would drive me wild, as it does you, just is VERY irritating to her. The middle of the night thing gets me an extremely angry wife. When she's asleep, she does NOT want to be woken up for any reason, even if my kid knocked on the door with a 1 unit nosebleed (true story, she was livid). When I once woke her just as you described, she called me arrogant and abusive (in that I would cause her to lose sleep and thus be tired in the morning). Getting dressed to....gently dissuade her from putting something on and say, "You look so good just as you are, you're driving me crazy...let me show you how much you get to me"...and try to lead her to the bed and she goes irritatedly through a liturgy of everything she has to do, and that I always do this at inopportune times yada yada yada. Or, more simply, "No....Noooooo c'mon, lets get going....I don't WANT to.......".
> 
> She continues to tell me she needs to feel emotionally close to me before she can have sex; I, however, need to HAVE SEX to feel emotionally close. I understand where she's coming from, but we're in a rather tumultuous period right now. I need to give up the desire for sex as a goal and focus on the goal of improving me.


Awww Journey..... that just makes me sad. I can assure you there are plenty of women out there who would be massively turned on by the things you have tried. I understand the part about being in a tumultuous marriage... I was in a similar situation with a very LD partner for 20 years. I got out.

I am certainly not advocating divorce, but I hope you don't end up as I did, MANY years squandered in a very lonely, loveless marriage.

I am over-the-moon happy in my current long-term relationship (almost 4 years). Joy and happiness are possible. Life is too short to waste on bitter, acrimonious, emotions.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The principle here is that you can't control or change other people. You can only work on yourself. If he doesn't handle his issues, he would likely end up in this situation with almost any woman.
> 
> This is going to be a terribly received analogy since the comparison is to dogs, but I'm a fan of Caesar Milan - the Dog Whisperer guy. One key lesson of his is how your own energy often causes the bad behaviors of your dog. I believe this sort of thing may be a more widely applicable principle. Unassertive behavior as parents gives rise to ill behaved children. Unassertive behavior as a spouse gives rise to ill behaving spouses (notice I think it applies both ways).
> 
> Lack of assertiveness is a destabilizer and gives rise to all sorts of problematic behavior in others. It encourages regular people to become abusive.


I definitely understand that and can appreciate the analogy. Since she won't improve,he has to do what he can from his end.

It seems ridiculous(although I know it happens) that an unassertive spouse (like my husband ie) gives rise to ill behaving spouse. If you love a man enough to marry him you should be good to him regardless of his lack of assertiveness. Women aren't stupid,we KNOW when we're treating someone poorly and we have the tools to turn the situation around.

But instead of doing that,it seems some women prefer to keep batting the hell out of that man til he's busted and bleeding. WHY?? Just bc he isn't assertive? No,I don't agree with that.It's bc there's something fundamentally wrong with HER. 

Sorry for my frustration,this topic hits close to home for various reasons.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

ScarletBegonias said:


> she should fix the problem,she is the one creating the problem. I realize he can't change her but damn,she needs to step up and be a woman and stop acting this way. Why can't people do this? Why is it so friggin hard to step back and say "wow I really treat this man like dirt.WTF is wrong with me? This doesn't make me happy and it doesn't make me feel good inside. How do I fix this?"


Because a lot of time the fix seems counter-intuitive. My wife is unhappy, so what is the solution? Most people (men and women) think it is to do nice things, maybe help more around the house, take her out, etc. Do something to show you care. And that can help in many cases

But when she is unhappy because her partner is not being a partner, but is being a yes man, the actual fix is to stand up for himself. That can mean doing something that, in the immediate term, actually makes her unhappy. Lot's of people don't see that as making sense. And this is without getting into the issue of whether folks even know what is going wrong.

I have told this story before, but I think it fits here again. My wife and I enjoy a drink and perhaps a snack before bed. Cheese and crackers, a cookie, a glass of wine, that sort of thing. Nothing big, but usually a plate and a glass are required. As a nice gesture, I would clean up after us. But this was part of me deferring to her and not really looking out for what I wanted. Pretty soon, it was not longer a nice gesture but expected behavior. She would get mad if I did not do it. 

Now, she was not treating me poorly, but was generally not content with our relationship. Something was missing (and that was me being a true partner rather than the yes man I had become). Part of me fixing things was stopping things like cleaning up after her and when she got mad about it, informing her that I was not her maid. She was not too happy with that answer, but in the long run it was the correct one.


----------



## happy as a clam

ScarletBegonias said:


> ...it seems some women prefer to keep batting the hell out of that man til he's busted and bleeding. WHY?? Just bc he isn't assertive? No,I don't agree with that.It's bc there's something fundamentally wrong with HER.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

One thing I'd like to mention. I see the issues, and I see what's going on. I very much want to resolve them. I have asked, on an incredible number of occaisions, to talk things out with her. I'm a big proponent of talking things out until they're settled. I don't think there can be TOO MUCH communication. She, however, has been brought up that talking about stuff is wasting time. She just wants to see it fixed; don't need to talk about it, just fix it and things will be good. When I need to talk to her seriously about things, marital or otherwise, she always responds with disdain and says, "OH, god, how long will this take"? I say something like, "Well, it might take a while". And she says, "I don't have a lot of time. How long? In minutes?". I'll say something like an hour, she'll say, no way, too long. I'll say OK, thirty minutes. She says, "no more". She'll then set a stopwatch, and we'll start talking, with her openly checking the stopwatch every 5 minutes or so. She generally doesn't respond much, just lets me talk and then says nothing...I have to say, "Soooo, what do you think". And she'll say, "I don't have an opinion, I'd have to process this", I'll say, "You said you'd talk". She'll say, "I said I'd let you talk to me....is that it? You have 3 minutes left". If it's after 9pm when we need to talk, it's out of the question. If it's right after dinner it's out of the question because she wants to spend time with her kids before they go to bed. Their bedtime is exactly the same as hers.........

One edit: I want to also let the group here know that my wife has, IN SO MANY WORDS, told me that she doesn't want me to "Walk on eggshells trying to please me and do everything you can to make me happy. I don't want a wimp. I want someone who will take the lead. I want you to take the lead and OWN it. I want someone who will stand up to me". 

In. so. many. words. However, as I'm working to do this, she pushes back HARD. .......


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Tall Average Guy said:


> Because a lot of time the fix seems counter-intuitive. My wife is unhappy, so what is the solution? Most people (men and women) think it is to do nice things, maybe help more around the house, take her out, etc. Do something to show you care. And that can help in many cases
> 
> But when she is unhappy because her partner is not being a partner, but is being a yes man, the actual fix is to stand up for himself. That can mean doing something that, in the immediate term, actually makes her unhappy. Lot's of people don't see that as making sense. And this is without getting into the issue of whether folks even know what is going wrong.
> 
> I have told this story before, but I think it fits here again. My wife and I enjoy a drink and perhaps a snack before bed. Cheese and crackers, a cookie, a glass of wine, that sort of thing. Nothing big, but usually a plate and a glass are required. As a nice gesture, I would clean up after us. But this was part of me deferring to her and not really looking out for what I wanted. Pretty soon, it was not longer a nice gesture but expected behavior. She would get mad if I did not do it.
> 
> Now, she was not treating me poorly, but was generally not content with our relationship. Something was missing (and that was me being a true partner rather than the yes man I had become). Part of me fixing things was stopping things like cleaning up after her and when she got mad about it, informing her that I was not her maid. She was not too happy with that answer, but in the long run it was the correct one.


I give up.I'll never understand how people think this way. I don't see doing nice things as being a yes man. I see it as being attentive and sweet. We clean up after each other bc we love each other and we love our tidy home. To think of it any other way seems like a way to create problems bc someone is bored.


----------



## ocotillo

ScarletBegonias said:


> Shouldn't there be more attention paid to WHY these women feel the need to treat their partners this way? Teaching them that's not how you treat people?
> If that problem was fixed,the man being abused wouldn't need to change a thing bc he'd be with a woman who treated him with love and kindness.



Good question. There's a lady here on TAM (That I actually respect a lot because of her willingness to talk about it.) who said that her husband's hurt at being rejected was a turn-off for her.

So the more she rejected him, the more she wanted to reject him because the more upset he was at being rejected. 

It would be nice if viscous cycles like that could broken by an appeal to principles like love and kindness, but how do you reason with things that aren't rational? :scratchhead:


----------



## WorkingOnMe

TheJourneyBegins said:


> We are not "legally" married, but we all currently live in my large house (she and her children moved in from her double wide 3 years ago).


Why do you keep referring to her as your wife? A lot of what you say makes me wonder if you're living in some kind of fantasy land with lots of wishful thinking. It sounds like this is just a live in girlfriend. I honestly don't understand why you don't just dump her. You have no financial ties, other than she lives in your house and you pay for everything. You have no kids together. Are you just afraid of the confrontation that will happen when you dump her?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

ocotillo said:


> Good question. There's a lady here on TAM (That I actually respect a lot because of her willingness to talk about it.) who said that her husband's hurt at being rejected was a turn-off for her.
> 
> So the more she rejected him, the more she wanted to reject him because the more upset he was at being rejected.
> 
> It would be nice if viscous cycles like that could broken by an appeal to principles like love and kindness, but how do you reason with things that aren't rational? :scratchhead:


It's a vicious cycle bc it's hard to step back. But she has to be the person who says "ok I'm going to forget about yesterday and start over. I will communicate how it makes me feel when he reacts poorly to being rejected.I will help him understand how to make me want him." I've noticed many women will hang on to past hurts like they're old friends.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

ScarletBegonias said:


> But instead of doing that,it seems some women prefer to keep batting the hell out of that man til he's busted and bleeding. WHY?? Just bc he isn't assertive? No,I don't agree with that.It's bc there's something fundamentally wrong with HER.
> 
> Sorry for my frustration,this topic hits close to home for various reasons.


I think a key thing to recognize is these relationships don't usually begin with this abusive pattern. Its a gradual process whereby the man encouraged and enabled it by his lack of resistance. A small favor here or there grows into regular favors, growing into expectations and demands. Deferring to her preference in order to please her becomes offloading all/most decision making to her - because he believes her opinion is more valuable.

Increasingly, she loses respect for him (probably beyond her own awareness of it) - he puts up no resistance after all; and reaches a comfort level to where blatant mistreatment doesn't bat an eye. I think its human nature to push and test boundaries, and many/most people can easily become an abuser of someone who won't stand up for themselves.

This happens with a lot women and share of household chores I think. She doesn't hold her ground on his participation, and everything gradually shifts to her doing it. Her lack of assertiveness enables his poor behavior. Average guy husband often isn't even aware that he's abusing her. To him, its practically invisible and gets no thought... she's just always taken care of them. I don't think everyone has awareness to see the ways in which they may be taking advantage of someone. I think a lot of our behaviors lean on how others allow themselves to be treated.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

ScarletBegonias said:


> I give up.I'll never understand how people think this way. I don't see doing nice things as being a yes man. I see it as being attentive and sweet. We clean up after each other bc we love each other and we love our tidy home. To think of it any other way seems like a way to create problems bc someone is bored.


Because it went beyond being nice. In may case, I never stood up for what I wanted. If we went out to eat, I deferred to my wife every single time. Sex was always about being respectful to her on her terms. She would offer to get me something, and I would jump up to do it instead. In essence, I stopped allowing her to do her part in our relationship.

To be clear, my wife was pretty mild compared to what I see here (in part because I was not a complete doormat). She treated me well and was pretty good about appreciating what I did. But she was not happy with our relationship, even if she could not understand why. We have since learned that, among other things, she emotionally needs me to tell her what I want. She needs the feedback that I am getting what I need from her and the relationship. When I was deferring to her, I was not giving her that. She could not believe I was happying just doing everything that she wanted, but could not communicate to me what she needed.


----------



## Caribbean Man

happy as a clam said:


> I am a woman, and I think the issue is a bit more complex than just becoming more Alpha-caveman in your approach. It's about combining passion WITH aggression, all in a way that is irresistible to your mate.
> 
> I hope this isn't TMI, but here are a couple of examples: Sometimes in the middle of the night, my SO will wake me up out of a dead sleep and pull my hand down to his "stuff." Hard as a rock, then he'll whisper in my ear, very passionately, "You want to sit on that?" as he pulls me over on top. Gets me every time, the passion mixed with his intense desire at the moment. Aggressive but passionate.
> 
> Other times I'll be getting dressed and he'll say, "Don't put that on." Me: "Why not?" Him (as he's guiding me towards the bed) "Because I want to make love to you." Gets me every time too
> 
> Rather than announcing ahead of time what he's going to do, he catches me by surprise, sometimes when I least expect it. That surprise element definitely ramps up the passion and desire.
> 
> Sorry if that's too personal, but it's all about demonstrating his very male power all mixed in with passion. It creates intensity which is good. By the way, it works both ways, I often do the same to him. Perhaps as the desire increases, your wife will feel more comfortable reciprocating.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...


And this^^^right there is just an example of what could be when two people have mutual respect for each other .

The issue of abuse never arises.

I posted in response to another thread recently, that I've never " asked or begged" my wife for sex.
But she has never asked or begged me either. She states exactly what she wants in a very seductive way or manipulates me into it , while I willingly comply or play along with her little sex game.

If two people have a certain connection then the need for sex , and the
_type of sex_ desired is understood.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> I give up.I'll never understand how people think this way. I don't see doing nice things as being a yes man. I see it as being attentive and sweet. We clean up after each other bc we love each other and we love our tidy home. To think of it any other way seems like a way to create problems bc someone is bored.


@Scarlet That's how I think of it. I pick stuff up for her when she's done with them (plates and cups and wineglasses, Oh My!)...It makes me feel good. She, on the other hand, gets ANNOYED with me because in her mind me picking it up for her is me telling her I think she's too lazy to do it herself, or somehow unable to care for herself. It's insulting to her because she feels that I'm doing it because she's incapable or lazy. I have to ASK to clean up for her; and often say, "Not because I think you can't or won't....". That's exhausting.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Tall Average Guy said:


> Because it went beyond being nice. In may case, I never stood up for what I wanted. If we went out to eat, I deferred to my wife every single time. Sex was always about being respectful to her on her terms. She would offer to get me something, and I would jump up to do it instead. In essence, I stopped allowing her to do her part in our relationship.


What you have described is me to a T


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

ScarletBegonias said:


> I give up.I'll never understand how people think this way. I don't see doing nice things as being a yes man. I see it as being attentive and sweet. We clean up after each other bc we love each other and we love our tidy home. To think of it any other way seems like a way to create problems bc someone is bored.


You're comparing balance "we clean up after each other" to imbalance, "he cleans up after me". Let's face it, its easy to become ungrateful when something becomes routine. Its easy to change from something being nice, to it becoming an expectation.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I think a key thing to recognize is these relationships don't usually begin with this abusive pattern. Its a gradual process whereby the man encouraged and enabled it by his lack of resistance. A small favor here or there grows into regular favors, growing into expectations and demands. Deferring to her preference in order to please her becomes offloading all/most decision making to her - because he believes her opinion is more valuable.
> 
> Increasingly, she loses respect for him (probably beyond her own awareness of it) - he puts up no resistance after all; and reaches a comfort level to where blatant mistreatment doesn't bat an eye. I think its human nature to push and test boundaries, and many/most people can easily become an abuser of someone who won't stand up for themselves.
> 
> This happens with a lot women and share of household chores I think. She doesn't hold her ground on his participation, and everything gradually shifts to her doing it. Her lack of assertiveness enables his poor behavior. Average guy husband often isn't even aware that he's abusing her. To him, its practically invisible and gets no thought... she's just always taken care of them. I don't think everyone has awareness to see the ways in which they may be taking advantage of someone. I think a lot of our behaviors lean on how others allow themselves to be treated.


This makes it easier to understand. I've lost respect for people for various reasons and can see how that part happens. It's the abusive part that I can't get. So you don't respect the man,what inside of your brain tells you instead of communicating clearly it's cool to brow beat him and treat him like a 4yr old? 

Why allow yourself to be that woman,ya know? There's no dignity in behaving that way. There's no beauty in being that way. 
What happened to make him go from compromising and equal assertion at the beginning to him taking a back seat day after day?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

@French Yes, she uses loaded words very often. Her favorite is pointing out that I am an "emotional abuser" when it suits her.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> You're comparing balance "we clean up after each other" to imbalance, "he cleans up after me". Let's face it, its easy to become ungrateful when something becomes routine. Its easy to change from something being nice, to it becoming an expectation.


Sure it's easy,but why be the person who becomes ungrateful? Isn't the goal to be better people? Why make the choice to be ungrateful just bc it's routine? I know it's hard but there's always a choice.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Tall Average Guy said:


> She would offer to get me something, and I would jump up to do it instead. In essence, I stopped allowing her to do her part in our relationship.


I was guilty of this. Not allowing others to do things for me. I had no idea such a thing could cause some much trouble.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

WorkingOnMe said:


> Why do you keep referring to her as your wife? A lot of what you say makes me wonder if you're living in some kind of fantasy land with lots of wishful thinking. It sounds like this is just a live in girlfriend. I honestly don't understand why you don't just dump her. You have no financial ties, other than she lives in your house and you pay for everything. You have no kids together. Are you just afraid of the confrontation that will happen when you dump her?


We were married out of the country. We haven't done the paperwork to make it US legal. We wear rings. Force of habit.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> @Scarlet That's how I think of it. I pick stuff up for her when she's done with them (plates and cups and wineglasses, Oh My!)...It makes me feel good. She, on the other hand, gets ANNOYED with me because in her mind me picking it up for her is me telling her I think she's too lazy to do it herself, or somehow unable to care for herself. It's insulting to her because she feels that I'm doing it because she's incapable or lazy.


I used to feel that way Serious paranoia LOL The only thing that helped me get over it was realizing he wouldn't pick up stuff unless he wanted to do something nice for me and help me out. He's not a judgmental person and wouldn't ever think of me as lazy or incapable. I was being my own enemy there instead of stopping to think of who I'm married to and how his mind works.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

FrenchFry said:


> I think NMMNG will be good for you and you should concentrate on that book a lot more than MMSL because I think a lot of the behaviors recommended in there will backfire on you (like the spanking and sexual dication) because I'm honestly not sure your wife likes you as a person.
> 
> But easy enough thing to do: stop picking up her plates. She's told you how it makes her feel and every time you do so you are saying a) I don't listen to you and b) I am lower than you.
> 
> Like...listen to her. She doesn't like you picking up her plates and she's not going to change her view that it makes her feel lazy. Just stop.


Points taken!


----------



## happy as a clam

Journey,

I just went back and re-read your posts. I didn't realize that the two of you aren't legally married. Knowing this, I would be walking right out the door. Send her back to her double-wide.

Do you love this woman enough to suffer this way, _and you're not even married to her?_

Just trying to understand what is keeping you there...

EDITED TO ADD: Whoops.... just read your other reply that you _are married_, just not in the U.S. Oh well, disregard!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

FrenchFry said:


> I've been with an emotional abuser, you aren't fitting the profile. Your wife is lying and manipulating you. Which is why I don't think that MMSL is going to work for you: she's so much better at manipulation than you are and every game you try and play she will figure out a way to throw it back in your face.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## ocotillo

Tall Average Guy said:


> If we went out to eat, I deferred to my wife every single time.


I think a lot of men, including myself can identify with that. My wife is the pickiest human being I know when it comes to food. She once told me that she didn't like blueberries and the reason she gave was that she'd never tried them. (!)

I was surprised when even ladies like Trenton told me that this was controlling behavior.


----------



## sinnister

OP - at some point you have to say to yourself "I am a man, and I don't want to be her B anymore".

Do that soon. You don't need any books to tell you how to do that. Your feelings have been validated here. You're being treated like crap. So now fix it. Gaming her with MMSLP techniques is a mistake. She's clearly not in to you. She has no ring.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

sinnister said:


> She has no ring.


Lucky for him.


Putting a ring on her finger would be like signing your own death certificate.


----------



## Conrad

FrenchFry said:


> Can you put a percentage on how often it's worked?
> 
> I'm asking because it seems like your wife has control issues and while I can see it working for people like that sometimes, I can also see how dismissive behavior like joking spankings also exacerbates this kind of behavior and can escalate it as well.
> 
> Do you think your wife is a "happy" person overall?


Making his wife happy isn't his job.

It's hers.


----------



## Conrad

FrenchFry said:


> I've been with an emotional abuser, you aren't fitting the profile. Your wife is lying and manipulating you. Which is why I don't think that MMSL is going to work for you: she's so much better at manipulation than you are and every game you try and play she will figure out a way to throw it back in your face.


People would have said the same thing about mine.


----------



## PHTlump

P51Geo1980 said:


> My STBXW is a strong woman but is also a complete *****. Enacting MMSL or MAP or whatever other idiotic acronym would have gotten me nowhere because...well...she's a *****. It comes down to the personality of the husband/wife and has nothing to do with dominance/submissiveness or alpha/beta.


So, you didn't try MMSL because you suspected that it wouldn't have worked for you. And since you suspect that it wouldn't have worked for you, you conclude that it can't work for anyone? Curious.



> People who ascribe to Kay's unsubstantiated theories fall into two categories:
> 
> 1. Men who are incredibly insecure with themselves and need to feel powerful in their relationship by dominating their wife/partner.
> 
> 2. Men who are compensating and looking for a way to fix a poor choice in a spouse.


You forgot a few categories of people, such as traditionalists, or Christians.



> Feminism is about women being superior to men - what you are ascribing is the same thing but with men being superior to women.


There is a difference between authority and superiority. For example, I have unquestioned authority over my children. They know it and I know it. But I wouldn't argue that I am superior to my children. I wouldn't argue that I have more value (as human beings) than they do. The same concept can apply to a marriage, or any relationship.



> Sure this dynamic will work for SOME, but if you look around at actual couples you'll see that the "traditional" roles no longer work - and rightly so.


You think that our culture today is an example of marriage working? Again, curious.



> If I'm ever blessed with daughters there's no way in hell I'd want them to be submissive to their husbands - they're people and they deserve to be treated equally.


Would you feel so strongly about that that you wouldn't give their opinions any weight? For example, if your daughter were happy in a marriage where she submitted to her husband's authority, would you tell her to leave the marriage so that she could less happy as an equal partner to another man?



> I wonder why you are so insecure with yourself that you are afraid of a strong woman?


I'm not afraid. I'm simply a traditional Christian with a Christian marriage. My wife is a very strong, capable woman. I love that about her. But, I have an obligation, as a husband and father, to lead my family.



> I also wonder why you call it feminism because a woman wants to be equal in a marriage and doesn't tolerate physical punishment? I also wonder why you consider it ok for the male to be dominant but if the female sticks up for herself you call it feminism?


Well, feminism is what spelled the death of traditional, Christian marriage in our society. No longer should women submit to their husbands, just because God tells them to. They have enough moxie to do what they want.

However, I don't really accuse women who want a marriage of equals of being angry feminists. I generally save my accusations for women who refuse to allow other people to choose how to live their own lives. You know, the people who can't accept that some people are happy in traditional roles. These are the people who must insist that a book that helps many couples live happier lives should be ignored because it's not politically correct.



> I actually find your responses both amusing and enlightening regarding the mindset of those gullible enough to fall for Kay's ill-conceived ideas.


No problem. I'm glad that me improving my marriage can be entertaining for you. I mean, I'm sure that you would probably take me more seriously if I had "respected" my wife enough to divorce her. But, I just couldn't do that to my kids. In the end, I had to improve matters and live as a happy family. Oh well.


----------



## naiveonedave

P51- Nowhere does Kay suggest 100% dominance. I read the book, not there. 

It is written for doormats to get back to a more equitable footing. It suggests the capt/1st mate analogy, which is not 100% to 0. Much closer to 50/50 (I think he uses 55/45).


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

naiveonedave said:


> P51- Nowhere does Kay suggest 100% dominance. I read the book, not there.
> 
> It is written for doormats to get back to a more equitable footing. It suggests the capt/1st mate analogy, which is not 100% to 0. Much closer to 50/50 (I think he uses 55/45).


In my case, that would work rather well, that percentage that is. I pay all of the bills:Mortgage, utilities, cable, internet, food, car gas, cell phones, landline (VOIP), Garbage, Water softener, taxes, pet food. It's my house that she moved into with her kids. Her name is not on the mortgage. I would think 55% of the vote is warranted.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> In my case, that would work rather well, that percentage that is. I pay all of the bills:Mortgage, utilities, cable, internet, food, car gas, cell phones, landline (VOIP), Garbage, Water softener, taxes, pet food. It's my house that she moved into with her kids. Her name is not on the mortgage. I would think 55% of the vote is warranted.


You pay all the bills and she treats you like dog poo. I think that warrants 100% of control in your favor while she gets sent packing. Ya know,there are better women than this out there.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> You pay all the bills and she treats you like dog poo. I think that warrants 100% of control in your favor while she gets sent packing. Ya know,there are better women than this out there.


Well, I'm very happy to hear that from one who would know! Seriously, it's a very difficult situation, and I am very grateful for the support of both women and men here. It's wonderful. 

Whenever we get into it, and I've said things like, "Maybe we need to go our separate ways", she always hits me with the "You promised me you'd never throw us out (her and her boys)". I was a Nice Guy. A fixer, rescuer. I DID promise her that in my head-over-heels haze. It kills me to hear her say that. I know she's manipulating me with that, but it still hurts. I'm having a lot of difficulty with the ethics of asking them to leave after that. I, however will NOT leave my house.


----------



## COGypsy

Sometimes despite our best intentions, we have to break promises. It happens. 

And a promise made when presumably she was acting like a civil human being on a fairly regular basis, doesn't neccessarily apply when the circumstances change and you're stuck with someone that can't manage simple courtesy and respect--never mind gratitude for supporting her AND her kids.


----------



## naiveonedave

however, you didn't promise to be a doormat. I would flatly tell her that you made that promise assuming she would not be a b^tch and that her behavior voids the promise. then walk out of the room and do what you would like to do w/o telling or asking her.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Well, I'm very happy to hear that from one who would know! Seriously, it's a very difficult situation, and I am very grateful for the support of both women and men here. It's wonderful.
> 
> Whenever we get into it, and I've said things like, "Maybe we need to go our separate ways", she always hits me with the "You promised me you'd never throw us out (her and her boys)". I was a Nice Guy. A fixer, rescuer. I DID promise her that in my head-over-heels haze. It kills me to hear her say that. I know she's manipulating me with that, but it still hurts. I'm having a lot of difficulty with the ethics of asking them to leave after that. I, however will NOT leave my house.


awww don't let her use your niceness against you.You can't be the knight with this one,she isn't worth it. You know in your heart she isn't going to change. 

Give her a deadline. "I want you and your children out of my house by 'insert near future date'." This doesn't make you a bad person.

If she didn't want to be thrown out she would love you the way you deserve to be loved.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

If you really are dead set against throwing her out then she needs to get a job and start contributing 50% to expenses in the home at the very least.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Whenever we get into it, and I've said things like, "Maybe we need to go our separate ways", she always hits me with the "You promised me you'd never throw us out (her and her boys)". I was a Nice Guy. A fixer, rescuer. I DID promise her that in my head-over-heels haze. It kills me to hear her say that. I know she's manipulating me with that, but it still hurts. I'm having a lot of difficulty with the ethics of asking them to leave after that. I, however will NOT leave my house.


Has she fulfilled her promises to you? Does not sound like it. Perhaps you note that to her when she makes that comment to you. Promises need to go both ways.

A cynic would say she does not want to lose her meal ticket that takes care of her kids.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

tall average guy said:


> a person who lives in reality would say she does not want to lose her meal ticket that takes care of her kids.


ftfy


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> If you really are dead set against throwing her out then she needs to get a job and start contributing 50% to expenses in the home at the very least.


@Scarlet She has a job. It pays her mid 20s. She also gets alimony from her ex, although that has substantially decreased because he's kind of a deadbeat and is several thousand behind. Anyway, she says she doesn't have any to spare after paying for her expenses (car, kids, etc). I can't fathom that, but we don't combine finances, and I can't look to see how much she actually has.

@Tall I've been that cynic. Still am, and so is every one of my family who has met her. And my therapist. Yeah....that.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> @Scarlet She has a job. It pays her mid 20s. She also gets alimony from her ex, although that has substantially decreased because he's kind of a deadbeat and is several thousand behind. Anyway, she says she doesn't have any to spare after paying for her expenses (car, kids, etc). I can't fathom that, but we don't combine finances, and I can't look to see how much she actually has.


So what's she going to do if she doesn't have a white knight there to rescue her? Girlfriend needs to stand on her own before she can stand next to anyone else. 

Unless you enjoy being abused,put a stop to it. There isn't a secret formula for this. You just tell her the facts.She's not a good person,that much is clear. You don't want to spend your life hitched to this wagon.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

TheJourneyBegins said:


> We were married out of the country. We haven't done the paperwork to make it US legal. We wear rings. Force of habit.


You really shouldn't try to BS a BSer. Seriously, I do this stuff for a living. If you're legally married in a foreign country then you're married in the US. NO additional paperwork required. It bothers me that you change your story when questioned. Are you being dishonest? What's the real truth?

By the way, if you're married (even in a foreign country) and she's still collecting alimony, then you might both be committing fraud. Is that why you're married in a foreign country? To keep the alimony coming in?


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The perception that MMSL is about the man dominating the woman, or otherwise being superior to her is incorrect.


If this is true, really true, then why the insistence that *he* be the captain, and *she* be the first officer. Why not the other way around?

Since he chose to give up *all* of his power, then presumably, he doesn't really want to be the leader. And since the only real problem is that he is too much of a doormat, then why not just counsel him to recover just enough to pull him out of doormat territory. It would be easier for him to achieve, and according to (prevailing interpretation of) the theory, just as effective.

But no, he *has* to lead, or she won't respect him. Period. At least, according to MMSL philosophy.

IOW, MMSL really is about men dominating women and how this is the natural order of things.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

It is a fact that my NG personality doesn't have enough self-confidence to believe that what I have been feeling (pretty much what you all have been saying) is true. Add that to the fact that she tends to gaslight me regarding my own opinions, and manipulate what I've said to be something it wasn't intended to be (all the time telling me it is ME who continually twists her words), and I haven't had the confidence that what I feel is at all correct, let alone true. I appreciate all of the validation you've provided. Somehow, all my familial and therapy validation wasn't enough. I think that unless I can begin to come to terms with the GOODNESS OF ME, and my inherent ability to tell when something is FUBAR, that will be what holds me back. However, with your help I'm finally beginning to understand that when when EVERYBODY you talk to about your situation tells you to GTFO, there might be something to think about there.

Gaslight example: I'm teaching HER dog to stay. Give command, walk away, hold treat. Wait. She tells me to make sure I use a gesture as well as a voice command (conveniently forgetting that I've trained dogs to the Utility obedience category). I say "Come" and use the "come" gesture. He comes. she looks up, and says, "I TOLD you to use the gesture". I say, "I did, you must have missed it". She says, "You see. You didn't use it and now you are just lying to cover it up. That's why I can't trust you". I'm infuriated, because I most certainly did. I STFU and walk away infuriated. This is so difficult for me, but is characteristic of our interactions.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

WorkingOnMe said:


> You really shouldn't try to BS a BSer. Seriously, I do this stuff for a living. If you're legally married in a foreign country then you're married in the US. NO additional paperwork required. It bothers me that you change your story when questioned. Are you being dishonest? What's the real truth?
> 
> By the way, if you're married (even in a foreign country) and she's still collecting alimony, then you might both be committing fraud. Is that why you're married in a foreign country? To keep the alimony coming in?


Oh, please. We went on a trip to Jamaica and were "married" by one of the folks who do that at the resort. It's symbolic. There's nothing "Material" about our marriage. One of us is Pagan and one is Christian, so we did a spiritual, not legal ceremony. We're cohabitating but wearing symbolic rings. I'm not trying to BS anyone, or commit fraud. We filled out no paperwork anywhere.

OK????????????


----------



## happy as a clam

Omg Journey.... your story gets more dismal with each subsequent post. Especially after reading her ridiculous comments on your dog-training efforts. Life is way too short for this...

Let me say it, loud and clear, since you are already beginning to grasp what EVERYONE is saying:

GTFO!!!!!!

She is NOT a nice person. She sounds horrible, in fact. Are you crazy, mate? Serve her with papers, do the 180 HARD, and if she is willing to come around after all that, MAYBE there is something worth salvaging. Doubtful, but maybe...


----------



## always_alone

FrenchFry said:


> when women really love their husbands, are asking for them to step up into a leadership role-- when you start doing so they aren't fighting them over it, not putting stopwatches on conversations.


And this is key. As rude and controlling as OP's wife is said to be, one thing that stands out for me is that she is extremely clear about her boundaries, and absolutely willing to enforce regardless of consequences.

Playing a game with her based on the assumption that she doesn't know what she wants or needs to be tricked into being led is pretty much guaranteed to backfire, I would think.

My advice to OP would be to think very carefully about which of *her* boundaries he is willing to respect (I personally would have either walked away from her stopwatch entirely or given her one five-minute "food for thought" before walking away), and what boundaries *he* needs for himself (and enforce them).


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

happy as a clam said:


> Omg Journey.... your story gets more dismal with each subsequent post. Especially after reading her ridiculous comments on your dog-training efforts. Life is way too short for this...
> 
> Let me say it, loud and clear, since you are already beginning to grasp what EVERYONE is saying:
> 
> GTFO!!!!!!
> 
> She is NOT a nice person. She sounds horrible, in fact. Are you crazy, mate? Serve her with papers, do the 180 HARD, and if she is willing to come around after all that, MAYBE there is something worth salvaging. Doubtful, but maybe...


I hear you. No papers needed. We're not actually married (Spiritual ceremony with no papers in Jamaica (as WorkingOnMe was kind enough to extract from me......LOL))


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

always_alone said:


> And this is key. As rude and controlling as OP's wife is said to be, one thing that stands out for me is that she is extremely clear about her boundaries, and absolutely willing to enforce regardless of consequences.
> 
> Playing a game with her based on the assumption that she doesn't know what she wants or needs to be tricked into being led is pretty much guaranteed to backfire, I would think.
> 
> My advice to OP would be to think very carefully about which of *her* boundaries he is willing to respect (I personally would have either walked away from her stopwatch entirely or given her one five-minute "food for thought" before walking away), and what boundaries *he* needs for himself (and enforce them).


This is an incredibly insightful, fantastic comment. You are EXACTLY right, and this gives me a great perspective on how to communicate with her. THANK YOU!


----------



## happy as a clam

Right on, Journey!

You are her meal-ticket, her big-income provider, her rescuer from the trailer park. And you are her whipping post, her tongue-lashing receiver, and her errand boy. Do NOT let her p*ssy-whip you into any kind of financial commitments. You owe her nothing.

Back to the double-wide she goes!

Seriously, we are all rooting for you... You deserve far better than this. Somewhere out there is a kind soul just waiting to love you for *who you are.* Someone who will treat you with respect, make love to you, and share your dreams. Right now you are sharing a living hell.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

PHTlump said:


> I don't accuse all women who disagree with MMSL of being angry feminists. I have always said that no one approach works for every woman. However, I see a big difference between stating that traditional marriage wouldn't work for you, and arguing that no one else should choose to have a traditional marriage. It's the latter that I define as angry feminism.


"..._Not agreeing with Athol Kay does not make me a feminist who doesn't need a man. *I just don't think it is healthy or fair for one partner to wield all the power in a marriage*_. "

"_This is what disgusts me *about MMSL*; the idea that the man should always be in charge, turning his wife into an assistant and "training" her_."

When did I say that nobody else should have a traditional marriage? :scratchhead: It looks like you are trying to justify your "bring the torches angry feminists!" rant with untrue statements. 

It is very obvious was merely giving *my* opinion and interpretation of MMSL.

Couples should relate to each other in a manner which suits them. I don't believe that a marriage can be 100% equal at all times since each spouse brings different strengths to the table. There needs to be respectful and open communication, along with a desire to please your partner. I don't see how this can occur if only one person holds all the cards.

For example, my husband is not a social butterfly like I am. I have friends that I like to go out with, while my husband would rather stay at home. He has asked that I do not go out every day that I am off work, so that we can spend time with each other. If I was an angry feminist, I would have ignored his requests all in the name of "independence".


----------



## Cosmos

P51Geo1980 said:


> The idea of spanking your wife because she disrespected you is ridiculous and you got what you deserved - this isn't the same thing as an "I want to f your brains out" kind of spank - you did it to punish her. The majority of women worth half their weight in salt would have the same reaction. I understand that TAM is a microcosm of individuals with marital problems and not at all reflective of the real world. In the real world I don't really think this type of treatment - or that espoused by Kay - would really fly very well with any woman.


:iagree:

It would be a _very_ brave (or stupid) man, indeed, who thought it was OK to strike _any_ part of my anatomy_ by way of a reprimand_.

The OP's W's behaviour was out of line, but there are better ways of addressing issues like this than the method he used.


----------



## naiveonedave

He didn't consciously make that choice, it happened over time. he is a doormat, he needs to take more leadership (not all). Don't presume why, you don't know. The self help book asks him to take the main roll, because if it says go 50/50 he won't go far enough and then relapse. You keep forgetting who the target audience is and why they need this help. If you ask the doormat to be 1st mate, he won't change, he thinks he is there....



always_alone said:


> If this is true, really true, then why the insistence that *he* be the captain, and *she* be the first officer. Why not the other way around?
> 
> Since he chose to give up *all* of his power, then presumably, he doesn't really want to be the leader. And since the only real problem is that he is too much of a doormat, then why not just counsel him to recover just enough to pull him out of doormat territory. It would be easier for him to achieve, and according to (prevailing interpretation of) the theory, just as effective.
> 
> But no, he *has* to lead, or she won't respect him. Period. At least, according to MMSL philosophy.
> 
> IOW, MMSL really is about men dominating women and how this is the natural order of things.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Caribbean Man said:


> For the record , our relationship is not one where those type of power struggles occur. There is a constant exchange of power, a give and take sort of scenario , so that sort of dysfunctional relationship dynamic never set in.
> When we disagree on things we tend to talk it out.
> 
> Maybe I got lucky with my wife because we were almost a perfect fit . We knew exactly the type of life we wanted from each other , from our marriage , and were willing to work towards it.
> 
> IMO, a lot of power imbalances in relationships is rooted in narcissism, whether male or female holds the power.


This sums up our marriage and opinions on shared influence perfectly. Congrats on finding your perfect wife CB. :smthumbup:


----------



## happy as a clam

P.S. Why are there so many partners who feel they can treat their other half so poorly?! To withhold sex, openly criticize, and just be generally nasty, and get away with it *with no repercussions?!?!* Why do they feel that the other person will always hang in there, be degraded, humiliated, sexually starved, and continue to put up with it?

I speak from experience. I was in a loveless marriage with a passive aggressive lunatic. I got out. Best decision I ever made.

These people deserve to be dumped to the curbside. Away with you! My favorite saying: there is a hefty price to pay when the piper comes calling. Tell her that.


----------



## always_alone

TheJourneyBegins said:


> She says, "You see. You didn't use it and now you are just lying to cover it up. That's why I can't trust you".


Deep breath. Remember briefly that each accusation is pointing at you, but reflecting something from within, and as calmly as possible:

"You don't see at all. I did use the gesture, and your consistent refusal to believe in me in any way at all is going to spell the end this relationship. Sooner, rather than later."



Honestly, I'm sure I have nothing that you haven't already done or tried. But that's how I would deal.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Strong opinions are one thing. Do we think AK's wife doesn't have strong opinions? Allowing a woman to walk all over you is something else.
> 
> OP's wife seems to think he should ask her if she wants sex before he makes advances. Why should he ask her permission to pursue his wants? If he wants sex, he should just make the advance. This is one of probably a host of control mechanisms she applies to him. Notice the follow-up to the effect of "I might have had sex, but what you did is such a turn-off" - thereby guaranteeing she keeps full control and he remains completely submissive to her. Twisting the screws. As if he was "wrong" for acting of his own want.
> 
> IMO, she is unhealthy, and his asserting himself will probably mean the end of their marriage. That doesn't mean MMSL's advice is wrong. It depends on whether OP would prefer to remain married under her heel or be an assertive single man. MMSL would end this marriage because OP would stop kowtowing to her and putting up with abuse and these stupid control mechanisms.
> 
> It isn't "save the marriage at all costs". One stays in a bad marriage because of one's own weaknesses. Sometimes addressing those weaknesses will rightfully spell the end for a bad marriage.


I must say that I concur with this post. The OP is trapped in a very unhealthy power dynamic in his marriage, because his wife obviously has some control issues. I don't think spouses should ever have to ask permission to initiate sex. 

Like I said before, I support the idea of equality in a marriage. This means that each partner is treated with respect, which is not occurring in the OP's marriage. It is really quite sad. 

I wouldn't respect my husband if he was some simpering patsy who let me boss him around. I also wouldn't respect him if he tried to control me like I was his child.


----------



## Cosmos

Caribbean Man said:


> For the record , our relationship is not one where those type of power struggles occur. There is a constant exchange of power, a give and take sort of scenario , so that sort of dysfunctional relationship dynamic never set in.
> When we disagree on things we tend to talk it out.
> 
> Maybe I got lucky with my wife because we were almost a perfect fit . We knew exactly the type of life we wanted from each other , from our marriage , and were willing to work towards it.
> 
> IMO, a lot of power imbalances in relationships is rooted in narcissism, whether male or female holds the power.


It would be hard to determine who leads in our relationship. We're both strong individuals, yet we complement one another's weaknesses and strengths, when necessary. This isn't something we've ever had to talk about - it just happens. We both lead and we both follow depending on the situation.


----------



## Conrad

happy as a clam said:


> P.S. Why are there so many partners who feel they can treat their other half so poorly?! To withhold sex, openly criticize, and just be generally nasty, and get away with it *with no repercussions?!?!* Why do they feel that the other person will always hang in there, be degraded, humiliated, sexually starved, and continue to put up with it?


Because that's what they've been taught.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

happy as a clam said:


> I am a woman, and I think the issue is a bit more complex than just becoming more Alpha-caveman in your approach. It's about combining passion WITH aggression, all in a way that is irresistible to your mate.
> 
> I hope this isn't TMI, but here are a couple of examples: Sometimes in the middle of the night, my SO will wake me up out of a dead sleep and pull my hand down to his "stuff." Hard as a rock, then he'll whisper in my ear, very passionately, "You want to sit on that?" as he pulls me over on top. Gets me every time, the passion mixed with his intense desire at the moment. Aggressive but passionate.
> 
> *Other times I'll be getting dressed and he'll say, "Don't put that on." Me: "Why not?" Him (as he's guiding me towards the bed) "Because I want to make love to you." Gets me every time too *
> 
> *Rather than announcing ahead of time what he's going to do, he catches me by surprise, sometimes when I least expect it. That surprise element definitely ramps up the passion and desire*.
> 
> Sorry if that's too personal, *but it's all about demonstrating his very male power all mixed in with passion. It creates intensity which is good*. By the way, it works both ways, I often do the same to him. Perhaps as the desire increases, your wife will feel more comfortable reciprocating.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...


This sounds amazing. 

I love it when my husband's desire makes him pounce on me. It melts me like buttah.


----------



## tulsy

TheJourneyBegins said:


> .... *She had delivered some particularly biting remarks to me, in front of the kids, who had since left the room*. *I smirked, playfully spanked her ass in her jeans VERY lightly, with a comment to the effect that that was “Naughty”, and I’d prefer she didn’t do it again* (but in a playfully sincere manner). She became incensed, looked me square in the eye and said, “Don’t EVER spank me again. YOU’RE NOT MY FATHER!!!!!! . Do you understand?”…….....


Wrong time for "playful spanking". Like, WAY wrong time. 

"To the effect it was naughty, and I'd prefer..."??? Wow.

You playfully spanked her behavior under the rug, and then ate more chit from her. *How were you not royally pissed off when she disrespected you in front of your children? * Like, why would you make a playful move to deal with the crap she doled out? That is what you should be asking yourself...that's where you are broken.


----------



## happy as a clam

tulsy said:


> *How were you not royally pissed off when she disrespected you in front of your children? * Like, why would you make a playful move to deal with the crap she doled out?


:iagree:


----------



## PHTlump

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> When did I say that nobody else should have a traditional marriage? :scratchhead: It looks like you are trying to justify your "bring the torches angry feminists!" rant with untrue statements.


If you portraying MMSL as disgusting and sexist, and the men who used it to improve their marriages as lesser men, was meant to be a specific statement about your marriage, then you were unclear. A better statement would have probably been that it isn't your cup of tea, and leave it at that. It certainly appears that your opinion is that traditional marriage is an invalid arrangement and inferior to more modern, feminist marriage.


----------



## over20

I think it's just the difference between men and women. The book was written by a man for a man. It's not for us women to understand fully and that's just fine. I actually really enjoyed it though. Just my 2 cents


----------



## PHTlump

over20 said:


> I think it's just the difference between men and women. The book was written by a man for a man. It's not for us women to understand fully and that's just fine. I actually really enjoyed it though. Just my 2 cents


Athol actually has said that around half his readers and forum members are women. The red pill is good for both sexes.


----------



## over20

I would agree. I think he is dead on. Some women want that strong leader, me being one of them. It's a refreshing kind of masculinity. One that has been lost. IDK , I am different though.


----------



## happy as a clam

I have read MMSLP, I am a woman, and I mostly concur with everything in it.


----------



## anchorwatch

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> This sounds amazing.
> 
> I love it when my husband's desire makes him pounce on me. It melts me like buttah.


Didn't you say male domination disgust you? lol


----------



## happy as a clam

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> This sounds amazing.
> 
> I love it when my husband's desire makes him pounce on me. It melts me like buttah.


:smthumbup: :lol: :smthumbup: :lol:

Yep! Or ME pounce on HIM!!!

Buttah.... that's the PERFECT term...!!!


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

OMG I wish I could pounce without causing a massive arguement! I LOVE that sort of thing, and I LOVE when it's done to me!


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

PHTlump said:


> If you portraying MMSL as disgusting and sexist, and the men who used it to improve their marriages as lesser men, was meant to be a specific statement about your marriage, then you were unclear. A better statement would have probably been that it isn't your cup of tea, and leave it at that. It certainly appears that your opinion is that traditional marriage is an invalid arrangement and inferior to more modern, feminist marriage.



Yes and it looks like you believe that a modern marriage is inferior to a traditional union. We are all entitled to our opinions and we are free to express them as we see fit. 

I saw that you mentioned being a Christian, so now I have a better understanding of where your beliefs stem from. My cousin is also a Christian and he is married to a much younger woman who seems to be afraid of him. This is the way he likes it; my cousin thinks that wives should "obey" their husbands and men should hold all the power. I believe that only children need to obey their parents. 

My marriage does have _some _traditional aspects but it is mostly a modern kind of union. 

Like I said to another member, we will need to agree to disagree about MMSL and drop the subject since we will never see eye to eye.


----------



## happy as a clam

TheJourneyBegins said:


> OMG I wish I could pounce without causing a massive arguement! I LOVE that sort of thing, and I LOVE when it's done to me!


You deserve that, Journey. Nothing less.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

always_alone said:


> If this is true, really true, then why the insistence that *he* be the captain, and *she* be the first officer. Why not the other way around?
> 
> Since he chose to give up *all* of his power, then presumably, he doesn't really want to be the leader. And since the only real problem is that he is too much of a doormat, then why not just counsel him to recover just enough to pull him out of doormat territory. It would be easier for him to achieve, and according to (prevailing interpretation of) the theory, just as effective.
> 
> But no, he *has* to lead, or she won't respect him. Period. At least, according to MMSL philosophy.
> 
> IOW, MMSL really is about men dominating women and how this is the natural order of things.


:iagree: Yes and any woman who doesn't wish to be dominated is an angry feminist. :rofl:


----------



## happy as a clam

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> :iagree: Yes and any woman who doesn't wish to be dominated is an angry feminist. :rofl:


:iagree: Feminism is dead in my book. Failed agenda.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

TheJourneyBegins said:


> OMG I wish I could pounce without causing a massive arguement! I LOVE that sort of thing, and I LOVE when it's done to me!


In a happy marriage, I don't think that taking your partner sexually should be an issue. When my husband is very lusty and passionate, I feel like I am going to be devoured by his sexual feelings. It makes me wriggle with excitement. 

My husband and I feel that foreplay begins long before we are in bed. He will sext me with messages describing what he wants to do to me later. It doesn't upset me in the least; those messages excite me. 

I still have an afterglow from this morning! Instead of getting up and having breakfast, my husband rolled over and started to kiss my neck while caressing my body. I heard that deep and rich baritone in my ear and one thing led to another. :smthumbup:


----------



## Cynthia

TheJourneyBegins said:


> If I tell her, in a straightforward manner, that I don't care for her verbal abuse, and that I won't address it in the future, she will simply say, "Yeah, whatever, I'm done with you".


Here's an answer to her statement that would solve your problems:
Okay, get your stuff together and leave. Good-bye.



TheJourneyBegins said:


> In any case, I'm working on ME, not getting her to change. I'm doing what I can to do my part in the relationship, but if it ends I'll know I have done all I can.


You seem to think that enabling her and making it easy for her to use you and abuse your children is your part of the relationship. I don't think that is part of any healthy relationship. You are enabling her to treat you and your children badly, while you foot the bill for her lifestyle. That is not helping anyone and it is damaging to your children.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

anchorwatch said:


> Didn't you say male domination disgust you? lol


I am disgusted by the belief that men should always have power over women. 

That isn't the same as enjoying my husband's strong desire for me.

If I ever told my husband that his pouncing made me uncomfortable, he would be mindful of my discomfort and we would discuss it. It wouldn't be like "Too bad. I'm the man and whatever I want is what you will do."


----------



## WorkingOnMe

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> I am disgusted by the belief that men should always have power over women.
> 
> That isn't the same as enjoying my husband's strong desire for me.
> 
> If I ever told my husband that his pouncing made me uncomfortable, he would be mindful of my discomfort and we would discuss it. It wouldn't be like "Too bad. I'm the man and whatever I want is what you will do."


I don't think you have to worry about that. It sounds like you exercise a lot of power in your relationship. Maybe all of it.


----------



## Machiavelli

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> In a happy marriage, I don't think that taking your partner sexually should be an issue. When my husband is very lusty and passionate, I feel like I am going to be devoured by his sexual feelings. It makes me wriggle with excitement.
> 
> My husband and I feel that foreplay begins long before we are in bed. He will sext me with messages describing what he wants to do to me later. It doesn't upset me in the least; those messages excite me.
> 
> I still have an afterglow from this morning! Instead of getting up and having breakfast, my husband rolled over and started to kiss my neck while caressing my body. I heard that deep and rich baritone in my ear and one thing led to another. :smthumbup:


I'm pretty sure AK covers all that in MMSLP. those are pretty much the standard things happening when sexual attraction is present in a relationship.


----------



## Machiavelli

Journey, the bottom line here is that you are in what's commonly called a "beta-provider" role, so far as your wife is concerned. That's the way she sees your value to her and she wants to do everything she can to keep you in that slot. You're a meal ticket. You're also the maid. I read all about the housework you do. Well, being her maid won't get you laid. 

Fibromyalgia, huh? Was she also diagnosed as celiac or gluten intolerant? The almost always go together. If you get her on a proper diet, it may help her to stop misbehaving, but I think she is just not sexually attracted to you.

I've read about half of MMSLP. I recommend it to people because the front half that I've read gives a good condensed overview of a lot of research into female sexual behavior and attraction. Some of what he references is controversial (Sperm Wars) but it's good to know stuff. 

What are you doing on the physique side? What's your workout? You need to be hitting those limbic cues with your V torso and alpha stances. I take it you aren't getting hit on by women as you go about your business. How about female coworkers? Do they ever get inappropriate with you?

I highly recommend that you get in shape and internalize the improvements that AK pushes in MMSLP, but for your next relationship. I don't think this one is going to last if you aren't willing to shut up and stay in the beta provider position your GF has picked out for you. Is this really the best you can do?


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: Re: The Married Man Sex Life Primer and the MAP in Marriage*



CharlotteMcdougall said:


> I am disgusted by the belief that men should always have power over women.
> 
> That isn't the same as enjoying my husband's strong desire for me.
> 
> If I ever told my husband that his pouncing made me uncomfortable, he would be mindful of my discomfort and we would discuss it. It wouldn't be like "Too bad. I'm the man and whatever I want is what you will do."


Good for you both. But this thread is not about you or your M. It's about helping the OP break free, so he can enjoy his life, before he gets married for the fourth time. Can you add to that?


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

anchorwatch said:


> Good for you both. But this thread is not about you or your M. It's about helping the OP break free, so he can enjoy his life, before he gets married for the fourth time. Can you add to that?


When members post to me or about my marriage, it is okay for me to respond to them. 

I mentioned the lack of respect and reciprocity in the OP's marriage. The OP needs to stand up for himself and set boundaries.

There is bound to be some resistance from his wife because long held ingrained patterns can be difficult to break. He has to be willing to walk away if no changes are made. Constant hostility and selfishness have no place in a marriage.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> I highly recommend that you get in shape and internalize the improvements that AK pushes in MMSLP, but for your next relationship. I don't think this one is going to last if you aren't willing to shut up and stay in the beta provider position your GF has picked out for you. Is this really the best you can do?


:iagree:

This relationship is too far gone to reverse, neither does she appear to care , based on what he says.

I think the most important thing he needs to do right now is work on himself.
He can't fix his wife but he can fix himself to ensure that his next relationship doesn't develop the same dynamic.

If his past relationships were anything like this , then clearly he needs to own his stuff .
Making bad choices in women and then enabling their bad behavior .


----------



## Caribbean Man

happy as a clam said:


> P.S. Why are there so many partners who feel they can treat their other half so poorly?! To withhold sex, openly criticize, and just be generally nasty, and get away with it *with no repercussions?!?!* Why do they feel that the other person will always hang in there, be degraded, humiliated, sexually starved, and continue to put up with it?
> .


Because we live in the age of narcissism.

Everyone now feels entitled , and thinks that the entire solar system revolves around them.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Well. Some **** it the fan.

About 5:00 this morning, I was feeling very aroused, and turned over to my so to start gently massaging her back, slowly moving my hand down to cupping her breasts, sliding down her belly, kissing her neck gently and nuzzling her ears. She moved my hand to a spot on her back and murmured, "Rub here". I rubbed out the kink, and then went back to slow massage, sensual touching and nuzzling, and pressing myself against her. She turned toward me, and moved my hand off onto the bed. Fine, not in the mood.

Next thing I know, I wake up startled by one of my shirts having been thrown in my face. I said, "What the hell?". She said, "I keep telling you I don't want your damn shirts on my side of the bed". I said, "I can't believe how rude and disrespectful that was; what would you have done if I did that?" She said, "I'm not talking about this now". I said, why not, she said "Just another instance of you waking up crabby and I'm not talking to you about this". I said what about you? She said, "I'm not crabby; and if I am it's because I had to put up with you MAULING me this morning!!!! 

Taken aback, I asked a few things and she was silent. She started using her massager on her muscles, and I walked over to her side of the bed, pulled the plug and looked in her face, and said "I'm pulling out the plug to get your attention so that you will talk to me." She decompensated, told me to **** OFF, and then started raging about "I don't have any idea why I married you, you're such a ****ing *******...." and continued to berate me. I had had it. I told her, "Fine, you want out? Great. BE out by April 1st, 10th at the absolute latest."

She told me to **** off, and that she knew what I was doing, just being abusive again. I told her that I new I had promised never to throw them out, but I made that promise to a person who was not the incredible ***** that she had become.

I told her there were examples rampant of her abusive behavior towards me, and she told me that that's a laugh, that I'm projecting MY abusive behavior on her. I said, "I sat down with you and discussed all the things that we had to do to make this work (Open communication, regular and active sex life, many other things that I crafted in a document that I presented to her and that she agreed to work on about 2 weeks ago. In that document I clearly stated what had to happen for us to continue, and she agreed, but only wanted to work on communication because "the rest will follow". As you know, THEY DON'T unless you work on them.

Anyway, she got dressed, the told me she wasn't talking about this anymore. I said, "It's important" and she said she wouldn't talk. Then, in a few minutes, she asked me if I wanted a cup of coffee. I told her I didn't want anything from her at this point. What I DID want was for her to take my issues and our discussion 2 weeks ago seriously. She told me that she wasn't trying to throw the shirt in my face (yeah), it just landed there. I said, if you were asleep on the bed, I'd have taken great pains to make sure that I didn't hit you and wake you up. She said, "I didn't have my glasses on". I said, why didn't you PUT them on? You know why? Because, maybe you weren't trying to be disrespectful, but YOU DON"T CARE. YOU JUST DIDN'T CARE.

Then I went and started cleaning up stuff I'd asked her to take care of. She said, "Don't do that". I did anyway. A few minutes later she came to me and said, "Make me a list of 3 things you've asked me to do that I haven't got to in the last 2 weeks and I'll do them tonight". I didn't respond.

She kept refuting the fact that she EVER treated me badly, and I told her I was serious. She didn't believe me, and I asked her why I would have asked her to leave if I wasn't serious. She said, Oh, I believe you're serious about that. That was before she offered to do the things she had neglected to do.

I think POSSIBLY she's worried now. She knows I've had it and she's not an idiot, she knows she's wrong.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

She sounds like she's about 17years old living under dad's roof and rebelling. 

So she rages at you to get your attention,you give her the attention,she uses that to get control and walks away. Then when she sees she has pushed you too far,she starts making nicey w/coffee and offers to take a look at what you want her to improve. Look into bpd and npd...I bet you she has behaviors that overlap both of those.


----------



## Caribbean Man

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Well. Some **** it the fan.
> 
> About 5:00 this morning, I was feeling very aroused, and turned over to my so to start gently massaging her back, slowly moving my hand down to cupping her breasts, sliding down her belly, kissing her neck gently and nuzzling her ears. She moved my hand to a spot on her back and murmured, "Rub here". I rubbed out the kink, and then went back to slow massage, sensual touching and nuzzling, and pressing myself against her. She turned toward me, and moved my hand off onto the bed. Fine, not in the mood.
> 
> Next thing I know, I wake up startled by one of my shirts having been thrown in my face. I said, "What the hell?". She said, "I keep telling you I don't want your damn shirts on my side of the bed". I said, "I can't believe how rude and disrespectful that was; what would you have done if I did that?" She said, "I'm not talking about this now". I said, why not, she said "Just another instance of you waking up crabby and I'm not talking to you about this". I said what about you? She said, "I'm not crabby; and if I am it's because I had to put up with you MAULING me this morning!!!!
> 
> Taken aback, I asked a few things and she was silent. She started using her massager on her muscles, and I walked over to her side of the bed, pulled the plug and looked in her face, and said "I'm pulling out the plug to get your attention so that you will talk to me." She decompensated, told me to **** OFF, and then started raging about "I don't have any idea why I married you, you're such a ****ing *******...." and continued to berate me. I had had it. I told her, "Fine, you want out? Great. BE out by April 1st, 10th at the absolute latest."
> 
> She told me to **** off, and that she knew what I was doing, just being abusive again. I told her that I new I had promised never to throw them out, but I made that promise to a person who was not the incredible ***** that she had become.
> 
> I told her there were examples rampant of her abusive behavior towards me, and she told me that that's a laugh, that I'm projecting MY abusive behavior on her. I said, "I sat down with you and discussed all the things that we had to do to make this work (Open communication, regular and active sex life, many other things that I crafted in a document that I presented to her and that she agreed to work on about 2 weeks ago. In that document I clearly stated what had to happen for us to continue, and she agreed, but only wanted to work on communication because "the rest will follow". As you know, THEY DON'T unless you work on them.
> 
> Anyway, she got dressed, the told me she wasn't talking about this anymore. I said, "It's important" and she said she wouldn't talk. Then, in a few minutes, she asked me if I wanted a cup of coffee. I told her I didn't want anything from her at this point. What I DID want was for her to take my issues and our discussion 2 weeks ago seriously. She told me that she wasn't trying to throw the shirt in my face (yeah), it just landed there. I said, if you were asleep on the bed, I'd have taken great pains to make sure that I didn't hit you and wake you up. She said, "I didn't have my glasses on". I said, why didn't you PUT them on? You know why? Because, maybe you weren't trying to be disrespectful, but YOU DON"T CARE. YOU JUST DIDN'T CARE.
> 
> Then I went and started cleaning up stuff I'd asked her to take care of. She said, "Don't do that". I did anyway. A few minutes later she came to me and said, "Make me a list of 3 things you've asked me to do that I haven't got to in the last 2 weeks and I'll do them tonight". I didn't respond.
> 
> She kept refuting the fact that she EVER treated me badly, and I told her I was serious. She didn't believe me, and I asked her why I would have asked her to leave if I wasn't serious. She said, Oh, I believe you're serious about that. That was before she offered to do the things she had neglected to do.
> 
> I think POSSIBLY she's worried now. She knows I've had it and she's not an idiot, she knows she's wrong.



Have a look at this site here:

for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them | Shrink4Men

Scroll down the page to; 
" _In His Own Words: *Self-Reflections at the End of an Abusive Marriage*_ " and you should be able to identify some of her behaviors.
But still, it all comes down to you , and what you are prepared to accept.


----------



## happy as a clam

Journey,

Good first step on your part. Now the important thing is follow through. Never issue idle threats. If you are serious about her being out by April 10th at the latest, take steps to make sure it happens. "You know, you have 12 days left before you need to be out of here. Do you have x, y, and z lined up?"

The part that bothers me is that she fake-tried to be nice by offering coffee. Then instead of kissing your a$$, realizing how hurt and angry you are, apologizing for being a beyotch, she orders YOU to make a list of the things SHE'S doing wrong!

Stick to your guns. If you are serious about her leaving, then make it happen.


----------



## Deejo

DUDE.

This woman with whom you share your resources, your home and your bed, should not be the focus of your attention.

3rd marriage. You're in theerapy, and your therspist questions why you keep her around. Your children are aware of her disrespect towards you, and them, and wonder why you keep her around.

Your kids therapist questions your decision making.

This woman whose legs you seem singularly focused on getting between, no matter what the cost to you personally, is not the problem. 

You are.

I don't feel the need to soft shoe this ... at all.

MMSLP is NOT going to help your circumstances in any way, shape, or form.

Its like trying to put a bandaid on a bullet wound.

This relationship is already over. You just don't see, or refuse to see it. This relationship is not good for you, and not good for your kids ... but that isnt what you see. What it seems you are looking for is a way to make this woman desire you.

And I'm going to shortcut this for you ... that ain't gonna happen. Not with this chick

Your personal circumstances and how you operate are far beyond the scope of either of the books. 

I'd suggest you familiarize yourself with the 180, and start disengaging, rather than looking for ways to connect.

This relationship? Is bad for you.

What exactly are you looking to change here?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

@Scarlet Exactly.  Thanks for your important insights and your support as I go thru this.
@Carribean That link is amazing. And eerily similar to what I am experiencing.
@Deejo I hear you. Which is why I asked her to go.

Honestly, I don't understand the force that pulls me to her. I'm not an idiot, and I care deeply about the kids and my family. It's the NG syndrome gone amuck.

@Happy Thanks for being SO supportive. I hadn't really thought that she had "ordered" me to come up with a list; I guess it could be interpreted that way....she said it in a contrite "oh god he's really going to throw me out of the house and I have no where to go so I'd better look meek and defenseless" voice.


----------



## anchorwatch

Journey, 

Did you even wonder why she said her last H was abusive to her, yet she is still friends with him?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

anchorwatch said:


> Journey,
> 
> Did you even wonder why she said her last H was abusive to her, yet she is still friends with him?


Yes. Yes I did. And it seems now like anyone who disagrees with her is being "abusive"..........


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Yes. Yes I did. And it seems now like anyone who disagrees with her is being "abusive"..........


So many psychological terms come to mind when I read your posts about her. A good therapist would have a blast diving into her mind.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> So many psychological terms come to mind when I read your posts about her. A good therapist would have a blast diving into her mind.


We went to therapy together (at my request) for a few sessions. She always said she was going because I thought it was a good idea and it helped me. She said she didn't really get anything out of it. Then, she told me she wouldn't go anymore because I "always used what the therapist said against her" and "always went in there and tattled on her".

My diagnosis: Borderline Personality Disorder


----------



## Tall Average Guy

TheJourneyBegins said:


> @Deejo I hear you. Which is why I asked her to go.


While you said those words, I would bet you large sums of money she did not receive that message because of what you did afterward. You told her to go, then promptly continued the conversation about her failing to meet your needs. Heck, you followed her around trying to get her to talk more. She does not believe you mean it. 

I agree with the others that she needs to go now and you absolutely need to end the relationship. It is bad for both of you.


----------



## jerry123

I'm sure you have before but if not "google" NPD or YouTube it. 

Watch the cartoons where the wife is a Narcissus, yelling at the husband. 

Your wife is one. The only way out is to leave her. It will damage you beyond belief if you stay. There is no cure for NPD. 

I have not read every post here but the ones I have are spot on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> We went to therapy together (at my request) for a few sessions. She always said she was going because I thought it was a good idea and it helped me. She said she didn't really get anything out of it. Then, she told me she wouldn't go anymore because I "always used what the therapist said against her" and "always went in there and tattled on her".
> 
> My diagnosis: Borderline Personality Disorder


I still thinking there's more to it than bpd. She sounds VERY much in the npd range w/maybe a shade of bpd mixed in there.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> I still thinking there's more to it than bpd. She sounds VERY much in the npd range w/maybe a shade of bpd mixed in there.


I'm sure you're right. I know someone personally (besides her) with npd. I'm experienced in dealing with her. My wife's behavior does bear striking similarities. I'm going to reread a book I got back when I met this other person, called "Help! I'm In Love With a Narcissist."


----------



## happy as a clam

TheJourneyBegins said:


> @Happy Thanks for being SO supportive.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> I'm sure you're right. I know someone personally (besides her) with npd. I'm experienced in dealing with her. My wife's behavior does bear striking similarities. I'm going to reread a book I got back when I met this other person, called "Help! I'm In Love With a Narcissist."


Have you talked to your therapist about why you're drawn to this type of female?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> Have you talked to your therapist about why you're drawn to this type of female?


Yes, and it's a difficult issue. I am drawn to women that seem like they need help, and that need "fixing". I'm thinking it has to do with my NG personality, and that if they didn't need me around to help, support, and "fix" them, they wouldn't stay???? I think it has to do with the fact that I don't feel I have qualities that would attract a "whole" woman. BTW, my SO has VERY little compassion.

This is me: I'm 56, about 5'7" and 170 lbs. I'm in good shape, working out with weights regularly (German Volume Training). I'm a martial arts instructor, an FAA certificated flight instructor, a portrait artist, NOAA Severe Weather Spotter, Amateur Radio operator, classically trained woodwind player and pianist, computer geek, language enthusiast, volleyball player, cyclist, I cook Thai, Indian, Chinese, Italian and Vietnamese, serious amateur astronomer/telescope maker, coffee enthusiast, father of 3 incredible kids. I work in medicine. I would think I have SOMETHING to offer a whole, "integrated" woman. I just don't know why I have such a low opinion of my attractiveness or value to the opposite sex.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Those things are all really amazing and add up to make you a pretty interesting individual! But what about your qualities? That stuff will impress a woman and draw her in but you need to think of all the things you possess personality/partner-wise that would make you a great catch for an emotionally healthy woman. 

How old is your wife? Sorry if you already posted that and I missed it!


----------



## anchorwatch

You left out "White Knight".

BTW, Tell me you don't drink Kopi Luwak coffee?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

anchorwatch said:


> You left out "White Knight".
> 
> BTW, Tell me you don't drink Kopi Luwak coffee?


LOLOL.

I. Do. Not. Drink. Kopi. Luwak. Coffee.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> Those things are all really amazing and add up to make you a pretty interesting individual! But what about your qualities? That stuff will impress a woman and draw her in but you need to think of all the things you possess personality/partner-wise that would make you a great catch for an emotionally healthy woman.
> 
> How old is your wife? Sorry if you already posted that and I missed it!


I'm 56, she's 44.

I'm a touchy feely person. My love languages are physical touch and quality time. I love to spend time with my partner, be it out in the world or at home watching a cozy movie. I'm really interested in our wonderful, natural world, and I truly enjoy discussing a huge variety of things: politics, world events, science, art, etc....

I am a loving, emotional (yes, I cry at movies) individual and all I really want is a partner who loves and cherishes me as much as I do them...and is willing to show that spontaneously just as I do. I'm a VERY HD person, so sexual activity is important to me, and her attitude toward sexual expression is a very important part of any relationship I might be likely to have. I'm giving, courteous, open and interested.


----------



## sinnister

TheJourneyBegins said:


> I'm 56, she's 44.
> 
> I'm a touchy feely person. My love languages are physical touch and quality time. I love to spend time with my partner, be it out in the world or at home watching a cozy movie. I'm really interested in our wonderful, natural world, and I truly enjoy discussing a huge variety of things: politics, world events, science, art, etc....
> 
> I am a loving, emotional *(yes, I cry at movies)* individual and all I really want is a partner who loves and cherishes me as much as I do them...and is willing to show that spontaneously just as I do. I'm a VERY HD person, so sexual activity is important to me, and her attitude toward sexual expression is a very important part of any relationship I might be likely to have. I'm giving, courteous, open and interested.




I don't know man. That may be indicative of a larger issue between the two of you. Perhaps she doesn't find those non-traditional traits attractive in a male partner. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with being emotional, but if that's turns her off that would explain a lot.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> I'm 56, she's 44.
> 
> I'm a touchy feely person. My love languages are physical touch and quality time. I love to spend time with my partner, be it out in the world or at home watching a cozy movie. I'm really interested in our wonderful, natural world, and I truly enjoy discussing a huge variety of things: politics, world events, science, art, etc....
> 
> I am a loving, emotional (yes, I cry at movies) individual and all I really want is a partner who loves and cherishes me as much as I do them...and is willing to show that spontaneously just as I do. I'm a VERY HD person, so sexual activity is important to me, and her attitude toward sexual expression is a very important part of any relationship I might be likely to have. I'm giving, courteous, open and interested.


See I love that stuff and my DH is very much this way. A lot of women aren't into it though.You're going to have to be so freaking careful when dating after you kick this mean girl to the curb. 

Many ladies on here would gobble you right up (in a good way)  There is hope for you...you have to realize you're a great guy and you deserve more than the train of NPD crazies that keep pulling you into their world.


----------



## happy as a clam

Wow Journey... your "resume" is quite impressive! You sound like a very interesting person who has a lot to offer to the right partner.

Interesting to hear you say you are drawn to the same type of woman over and over. Counseling would definitely help you crack that nut, IMHO.

Despite your accomplishments, while reading through them I get a sense of esteem issues on your part. Do you in fact feel you suffer from low esteem?

I know many here believe the whole "sex rank" thing (scale of 1-10) is trivial, but what sex rank do YOU give yourself? And what sex rank do you think a neutral observer would give you? Do you believe you are an "attractive" person, physically speaking? I feel this is important in helping you break the cycle and start attracting the right kind of women. If we have a low opinion of ourselves, that's what we project to the world. If you project an "apology" before the relationship even begins, well, we all know how that ends up...

Just curious... when this relationship began, was she different towards you? Did you think she found all of your qualities endearing? Or was she always moody and snarky and you overlooked it?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

happy as a clam said:


> Wow Journey... your "resume" is quite impressive! You sound like a very interesting person who has a lot to offer to the right partner.
> 
> Interesting to hear you say you are drawn to the same type of woman over and over. Counseling would definitely help you crack that nut, IMHO.
> 
> Despite your accomplishments, while reading through them I get a sense of esteem issues on your part. Do you in fact feel you suffer from low esteem?
> 
> I know many here believe the whole "sex rank" thing (scale of 1-10) is trivial, but what sex rank do YOU give yourself? And what sex rank do you think a neutral observer would give you? I feel this is important in helping you break the cycle and start attracting the right kind of women. If we have a low opinion of ourselves, that's what we project to the world. If you project an "apology" before the relationship even begins, well, we all know how that ends up...
> 
> Just curious... when this relationship began, was she different towards you? Did you think she found all of your qualities endearing? Or was she always moody and snarky and you overlooked it?


Yes, Happy, I have HUGE issues with self-esteem..something my therapist is helping me with. My sex rank? Many have told me I'm "hot" (I feel silly even typing that), but I feel like I'm a 5, and have ALWAYS felt lower than my partners. I currently feel MUCH lower than my partner (I'd give her an 8-9, and myself a 4). She can look SOOOO hot...but others have asked me what I see in her.....and others have told me how hot she is. She probably does have NPD, and is always the center of attention, very flirty, and makes everyone feel special. Except me.

She thought of my qualities as endearing until she moved in, it seems. She has virtually NO empathy, and whenever I have a great accomplishment she can't seem to develop enough enthusiasm to congratulate me the way a wife should want to do naturally.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I'd give her a 2 based on her sh**ty attitude and obvious npd.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'd give her a 2 based on her sh**ty attitude and obvious npd.


@Scarlet Be careful. Your rank was already up there, but with this you're threatening to max it out............


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> @Scarlet Be careful. Your rank was already up there, but with this you're threatening to max it out............


 just speaking my mind. 

Who knows,if she could actually sit through therapy and put some effort into taming her demons she could make a half way decent partner. 
44 isn't old and neither is 56. There is ALWAYS time to change and improve on yourself.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> just speaking my mind.
> 
> Who knows,if she could actually sit through therapy and put some effort into taming her demons she could make a half way decent partner.
> 44 isn't old and neither is 56. There is ALWAYS time to change and improve on yourself.


I would love for her to do that. Unfortunately, with BPD and NPD, both of those types tend to leave therapy when the therapist says something they don't want to hear, or tend not to believe the therapist if they stay.

No, neither age is old. Braving the dating world again.......I dunno. But I'm relationshippy.....I love to have a partner, and tend to be lonely without female companionship.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> I would love for her to do that. Unfortunately, with BPD and NPD, both of those types tend to leave therapy when the therapist says something they don't want to hear, or tend not to believe the therapist if they stay.
> 
> No, neither age is old. Braving the dating world again.......I dunno. But I'm relationshippy.....I love to have a partner, and tend to be lonely without female companionship.


It may be beneficial for you to be alone for a while.At least til you get your white knight urge under control.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> It may be beneficial for you to be alone for a while.At least til you get your white knight urge under control.


True. I was alone for quite a while before I met my wife. However, given this experience, and some significant counseling, I think my White Knight urge has been significantly diminished. Women who don't NEED me but still WANT me are now looking mighty special.......:fro:


----------



## happy as a clam

Journey, if others have told you you're hot (!) then I can assure you that you are not a 5, and certainly not a 4 as you see yourself currently.

Her nastiness and control issues are making you see yourself through a very skewed lens. I am almost certain, based on her personality type (probable NPD) that she makes you feel as though she is doing you "a favor" by even being there. Ha! Some favor, right? 

She gets to basically live there for free, offers nothing to the relationship, and bullies you constantly because *she has her own self-esteem issues.* That's the best kept secret that narcissists are loathe for anyone to discover -- that they often have very low self esteem, but because of their physical attractiveness, flirtiness, ability to become "who" they need to be in any given situation, they hide it very well from the world. Others believe they are "all that", but inside they know they really are nothing.

Despite all their blustering, NPDs are actually very fragile and can be crushed when their world of mirrors gets shattered.


----------



## COGypsy

TheJourneyBegins said:


> But I'm relationshippy.....I love to have a partner, and tend to be lonely without female companionship.


I think most people are relationshippy and want to have companionship and partnership with another person. That's a very human quality. 

The question is though whether your need to have that in your life (or the fear of not having that in your life) outweighs your need to be treated with just basic dignity and respect. We won't even go into concepts like affection, love, compassion... let's just talk about being treated civilly.

Because frankly, if having the spot marked "woman in your life" filled with another warm body is the important thing, this woman is probably as good as any other. The pattern isn't likely to change until you place yourself as a priority in your own life and demand that the people who are lucky enough to be in your life earn the right to be there.


----------



## jerry123

They may gobble you up but if your HD and want a partner who wants you sexually you need to be more Alpha. Stop crying from watching a movie. 

Your love language can work against you. Be unavailable sometimes. Mix it up a bit and keep women thinking. If your always predictable be unpredictable. Not to the point of dread but you need to keep them thinking about you. Never follow her around, have her follow you. Be the captain. You read the book. 

I know I should read this whole thread and posts but I was being lazy today and skimmed over important posts. 

But if your already doing that then good. 

What did you get by reading MMSG?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Caribbean Man said:


> Because we live in the age of narcissism.
> 
> Everyone now feels entitled , and thinks that the entire solar system revolves around them.


You are so right CB. Isn't it terrible?  Nobody can have a happy marriage with a narcissist.


----------



## happy as a clam

jerry123 said:


> Stop crying from watching a movie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My EXTREMELY Alpha male partner often cries at movies...  Beneath that tough exterior, he is very sensitive.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

happy as a clam said:


> Journey,
> 
> Good first step on your part. Now the important thing is follow through. Never issue idle threats. If you are serious about her being out by April 10th at the latest, take steps to make sure it happens. "You know, you have 12 days left before you need to be out of here. Do you have x, y, and z lined up?"
> 
> The part that bothers me is that she fake-tried to be nice by offering coffee. Then instead of kissing your a$$, realizing how hurt and angry you are, apologizing for being a beyotch, she orders YOU to make a list of the things SHE'S doing wrong!
> 
> Stick to your guns. If you are serious about her leaving, then make it happen.


:iagree::iagree: I am so proud of Journey for standing up to his wife. That is exactly what needs to happen.

Journey, your wife needs counseling. All you can do is steer her towards that but it doesn't seem like she will be receptive. You deserve better and many ladies would love to have a wonderful man like you around.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

happy as a clam said:


> My EXTREMELY Alpha male partner often cries at movies...  Beneath that tough exterior, he is very sensitive.


A real man can be soft and strong at the same time. :smthumbup:

I'm not sure how effective MMSL is when the wife is an abusive narcissist who refuses who seek help....


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

COGypsy said:


> I think most people are relationshippy and want to have companionship and partnership with another person. That's a very human quality.
> 
> The question is though whether your need to have that in your life (or the fear of not having that in your life) outweighs your need to be treated with just basic dignity and respect. We won't even go into concepts like affection, love, compassion... let's just talk about being treated civilly.
> 
> Because frankly, if having the spot marked "woman in your life" filled with another warm body is the important thing, this woman is probably as good as any other. The pattern isn't likely to change until you place yourself as a priority in your own life and demand that the people who are lucky enough to be in your life earn the right to be there.


Very sage advice. :iagree:


----------



## always_alone

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being emotional, and all this alpha stance stuff is just nonsense, IMHO. Life is not an Archie comic. 

When I see guys posturing and playing tough guy, I'm not impressed; I just assume he's overcompensating for an utter lack of bedroom prowess.

What does make a real impact is cultivation of self, and part of that is learning to love who you are. Looking back on my life, my only real regret is how much time I spent putting myself down. What a waste!


----------



## jerry123

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> A real man can be soft and strong at the same time. :smthumbup:
> 
> I'm not sure how effective MMSL is when the wife is an abusive narcissist who refuses who seek help....



Athol would probably mark his wife as the BSK type so MMSG would have minimal effect in his current marriage. It has tremendous value for any future relashionships.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

jerry123 said:


> Athol would probably mark his wife as the BSK type so MMSG would have minimal effect in his current marriage. It has tremendous value for any future relashionships.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What does BSK and MMSG mean? Educate me please.


----------



## jerry123

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> What does BSK and MMSG mean? Educate me please.


Bat Sh!t crazy

Married mans sex guide....a book written by Athol Kay. Mostly written for men who want to change their bad relashionships into better relashionships.

Not just to get more and better sex but change how women look at men and what attracts them. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

jerry123 said:


> Bat Sh!t crazy
> 
> Married mans sex guide....a book written by Athol Kay. Mostly written for men who want to change their bad relashionships into better relashionships.
> 
> Not just to get more and better sex but change how women look at men and what attracts them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh! I thought the book was called Married Man Sex _*Life*_.


----------



## happy as a clam

I believe the title is "Married Man Sex Life Primer." MMSLP


----------



## jerry123

happy as a clam said:


> I believe the title is "Married Man Sex Life Primer." MMSLP


You're correct. Lol...my bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

ScarletBegonias said:


> So you don't respect the man,what inside of your brain tells you instead of communicating clearly it's cool to brow beat him and treat him like a 4yr old?


Dunno... my guess would be that people don't recognize what they're doing. How we treat others is influenced by how they allow themselves to be treated - even when we're otherwise good people. A doormat erodes virtually anyone's respect for them, and there's a slow gradual slide into mistreatment.



ScarletBegonias said:


> Why allow yourself to be that woman,ya know? There's no dignity in behaving that way. There's no beauty in being that way.


I really don't think they see it. Kinda like the man whose wife does all the household chores. From what I've heard on those cases, he originally did some things and over time they just sort of fell off his plate (which is to say, she started doing them without asserting herself that it was his responsibility). After that, it just doesn't enter his mind. Her behavior - doing everything - becomes the norm... the expectation. Maybe its like that?



ScarletBegonias said:


> What happened to make him go from compromising and equal assertion at the beginning to him taking a back seat day after day?


I think its complicated, and it happens slowly... but maybe a bit different in each case.

Let me just say first that I don't think the majority of these cases are of women who just want a nice guy to mistreat - I don't think most start off as bad people. I think its the man's way of being that enables, even encourages mistreatment. I think even the shirking of responsibility or lack of caring/opinion can be signs a person is unassertive in a particular area. She is left to fill the role he abandons and the power-balance shifts; and he increasingly doesn't matter. I think its natural that respect and concern for him declines - he's not really participating. He's abdicating or following.

I'll tell you how it went for me, and my case probably isn't even the most "doormat-ish"; and at the beginning of the relationship I was unarguably the more assertive, dominant person in the relationship. But I had a ***** in the armor - an unrecognized self-esteem issue that if push came to shove - I would give her what she wants to make her happy. A subtle overvaluing of what she wanted vs what I wanted, and willingness to choose her happiness above mine - "what makes her happy makes me happy" or so I thought. It didn't make itself visible until she wanted something very different from what I wanted, and no compromise was possible: having children.

My slide into being passive happened as a result of having kids. I gave in to having them when I didn't want to, and certainly wasn't ready to... but it was very important to her. I abdicated responsibility - I didn't lead and didn't assert myself and my role in parenting. When it came to the kids, my ex was God and I just followed instructions. She made all child related decisions. It turns out, children occupy most of your daily life and aren't as easily compartmentalized into "child area". So I spent a lot of time in an oddly submissive role - not having an opinion - a heavy imbalance of power that I accepted by always deferring to her. I didn't show leadership or advance any opinion of parenting of my own. In not even having opinions I was accepting a submissive role. I suspect this affected how she felt about me. She would say she wanted me to be more involved with the kids, but to my mind, I was very involved - I did whatever she wanted me to do. But what I think I understand today, is that she wanted me to take more of the lead with the kids. Don't just do what she wants - have an opinion. I didn't have an opinion. This wasn't my thing. I didn't want responsibility and I didn't have interest. I was an employee.

Having children touches almost every aspect of your life, so this basically appointed her ruler. What shall we eat tonight? Depends on the kids. What do we do this weekend? Depends on the kids. What are our vacation plans? Where do we buy a house? What time must we get home? What time do we go to bed? Everything depended on the kids and thus I deferred to and accepted whatever her judgment was without any thought to personal desire.

So I enabled her prioritization of the children and probably cost myself a ton of attractiveness in not having more of an opinion. I wasn't an equal participant. I was doing equal WORK... but I understand this to be a different thing now. I enabled her treating me as a second class citizen. I was submissive, and at the time, I was not even aware of it or how it happened . That was the role I adopted for myself by my lack of opinion/assertiveness in that new direction of our relationship.

Almost no one I know would think me low self-esteem or lacking assertiveness, and yet I completely fell on my face by deferring and putting someone else's happiness above my own. Her subsequent treatment of me came about as a result of my long, unaware slide of enabling behavior.

At least, this is my current understanding of how things evolved for me. How I went from being dominant to being passive, to allowing neglect, and eventually secretly wandering. I'd taken on a host of weak, passive characteristics without it dawning on me.


----------



## jerry123

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Dunno... my guess would be that people don't recognize what they're doing. How we treat others is influenced by how they allow themselves to be treated - even when we're otherwise good people. A doormat erodes virtually anyone's respect for them, and there's a slow gradual slide into mistreatment.
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't think they see it. Kinda like the man whose wife does all the household chores. From what I've heard on those cases, he originally did some things and over time they just sort of fell off his plate (which is to say, she started doing them without asserting herself that it was his responsibility). After that, it just doesn't enter his mind. Her behavior - doing everything - becomes the norm... the expectation. Maybe its like that?
> 
> 
> 
> I think its complicated, and it happens slowly... but maybe a bit different in each case.
> 
> Let me just say first that I don't think the majority of these cases are of women who just want a nice guy to mistreat - I don't think most start off as bad people. I think its the man's way of being that enables, even encourages mistreatment. I think even the shirking of responsibility or lack of caring/opinion can be signs a person is unassertive in a particular area. She is left to fill the role he abandons and the power-balance shifts; and he increasingly doesn't matter. I think its natural that respect and concern for him declines - he's not really participating. He's abdicating or following.
> 
> I'll tell you how it went for me, and my case probably isn't even the most "doormat-ish"; and at the beginning of the relationship I was unarguably the more assertive, dominant person in the relationship. But I had a ***** in the armor - an unrecognized self-esteem issue that if push came to shove - I would give her what she wants to make her happy. A subtle overvaluing of what she wanted vs what I wanted, and willingness to choose her happiness above mine - "what makes her happy makes me happy" or so I thought. It didn't make itself visible until she wanted something very different from what I wanted, and no compromise was possible: having children.
> 
> My slide into being passive happened as a result of having kids. I gave in to having them when I didn't want to, and certainly wasn't ready to... but it was very important to her. I abdicated responsibility - I didn't lead and didn't assert myself and my role in parenting. When it came to the kids, my ex was God and I just followed instructions. She made all child related decisions. It turns out, children occupy most of your daily life and aren't as easily compartmentalized into "child area". So I spent a lot of time in an oddly submissive role - not having an opinion - a heavy imbalance of power that I accepted by always deferring to her. I didn't show leadership or advance any opinion of parenting of my own. In not even having opinions I was accepting a submissive role. I suspect this affected how she felt about me. She would say she wanted me to be more involved with the kids, but to my mind, I was very involved - I did whatever she wanted me to do. But what I think I understand today, is that she wanted me to take more of the lead with the kids. Don't just do what she wants - have an opinion. I didn't have an opinion. This wasn't my thing. I didn't want responsibility and I didn't have interest. I was an employee.
> 
> Having children touches almost every aspect of your life, so this basically appointed her ruler. What shall we eat tonight? Depends on the kids. What do we do this weekend? Depends on the kids. What are our vacation plans? Where do we buy a house? What time must we get home? What time do we go to bed? Everything depended on the kids and thus I deferred to and accepted whatever her judgment was without any thought to personal desire.
> 
> So I enabled her prioritization of the children and probably cost myself a ton of attractiveness in not having more of an opinion. I wasn't an equal participant. I was doing equal WORK... but I understand this to be a different thing now. I enabled her treating me as a second class citizen. I was submissive, and at the time, I was not even aware of it or how it happened . That was the role I adopted for myself by my lack of opinion/assertiveness in that new direction of our relationship.
> 
> Almost no one I know would think me low self-esteem or lacking assertiveness, and yet I completely fell on my face by deferring and putting someone else's happiness above my own. Her subsequent treatment of me came about as a result of my long, unaware slide of enabling behavior.
> 
> At least, this is my current understanding of how things evolved for me. How I went from being dominant to being passive, to allowing neglect, and eventually secretly wandering. I'd taken on a host of weak, passive characteristics without it dawning on me.



Spot on!!

And why we don't really see how this happens is because it happens over a long period of time. 

Having kids, taking care of kids is a huge leadership role. You basically are in control of someone's life. Kids can and have died in the care of a parent so as a parent you need to be on your game every minute of the day. It's not a 9-5 job. You don't clock out. 

For me, I had to change 5-6 years of the way things were fast. It took about 1-2 years for me to get there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

TheJourneyBegins said:


> This is me: I'm 56, about 5'7" and 170 lbs. I'm in good shape, working out with weights regularly (German Volume Training). I'm a martial arts instructor...lots of excellent stuff you do snipped...I just don't know why I have such a low opinion of my attractiveness or value to the opposite sex.


For one thing, you need to be a lot more feral, uncivilized, and basic in your physical appearance and behavior to pull women. You need to get your body fat down around 9%. The specifics are that at 5'7" tall, the Fat Free Mass Index tells us that a pre steroid champion bodybuilder, a genetic freak for musculature, can have a maximum FFMI of 25; even the most gifted genetic freaks have to go on steroids to move beyond 25. If your body fat is 9% and you're 170# and 5'7", your present weight and height, that would mean you have a traffic stopping physique with a FFMI of 24.4, which would make you competitive with Steve Reeves at FFMI 25.

Steve Reeves:









So despite your fitness level, which I'm sure is excellent, I know you do not have that kind of physique or we would definitely not be having this conversation. What is your present body fat percentage? 

Your Routine:
One thing about German Volume Training, most people forget the key ingredients, because the key ingredients are always left out of the published recipes. Here is the key ingredient list for German Volume Training:

Primabolin 800 mg/weekly, weeks 1-15
Anavar 50 mg/daily, weeks 1-6
Winstrol 50 mg/daily, weeks 7-12
HGH 2 iu/daily, weeks 1-16
Aromasin 25 mg/daily, weeks 1-16

If you're already doing all that, or something like it, which is what you'd have to be doing to be ripped at 170#, ignore this, but if you want to get a great physique without the drugs, I recommend you pick up a book called "Heavy Duty" by 1980 Mr. America Mike Mentzer. For the eating side of it, get a book called "The Anabolic Diet" by former power lifting champ Mauro DiPasquale M.D.

That needs to be your top priority aside from getting little Miss B Cluster out of your house.

That covers the physique pretty well, but we've got to work on your vibe. You need to google "The Sixteen Commandments" and start reading. It's counterintuitive, but this list will serve you well in your coming single days.


----------



## Cynthia

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> She is left to fill the role he abandons and the power-balance shifts; and he increasingly doesn't matter. I think its natural that respect and concern for him declines - he's not really participating. He's abdicating or following.


and


DvlsAdvc8 said:


> She would say she wanted me to be more involved with the kids, but to my mind, I was very involved - I did whatever she wanted me to do. But what I think I understand today, is that she wanted me to take more of the lead with the kids. Don't just do what she wants - have an opinion. I didn't have an opinion. This wasn't my thing. I didn't want responsibility and I didn't have interest. I was an employee.


This is very insightful. I think this happens in a lot of marriages, because women are naturally more involved with the children.
This is especially true in the community I am most involved in, homeschooling, because homeschooling moms are with their children 24/7. I've even heard talks on this at homeschooling events.


----------



## PHTlump

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> I saw that you mentioned being a Christian, so now I have a better understanding of where your beliefs stem from. My cousin is also a Christian and he is married to a much younger woman who seems to be afraid of him. This is the way he likes it; my cousin thinks that wives should "obey" their husbands and men should hold all the power. I believe that only children need to obey their parents.


If you're basing your understanding of Christianity on your cousin's behavior, you're missing quite a bit. Similarly, I wouldn't suggest using the behavior of Jeffrey Dahmer to gain insight into the standard practices of atheists.


----------



## Conrad

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Dunno... my guess would be that people don't recognize what they're doing. How we treat others is influenced by how they allow themselves to be treated - even when we're otherwise good people. A doormat erodes virtually anyone's respect for them, and there's a slow gradual slide into mistreatment.
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't think they see it. Kinda like the man whose wife does all the household chores. From what I've heard on those cases, he originally did some things and over time they just sort of fell off his plate (which is to say, she started doing them without asserting herself that it was his responsibility). After that, it just doesn't enter his mind. Her behavior - doing everything - becomes the norm... the expectation. Maybe its like that?
> 
> 
> 
> I think its complicated, and it happens slowly... but maybe a bit different in each case.
> 
> Let me just say first that I don't think the majority of these cases are of women who just want a nice guy to mistreat - I don't think most start off as bad people. I think its the man's way of being that enables, even encourages mistreatment. I think even the shirking of responsibility or lack of caring/opinion can be signs a person is unassertive in a particular area. She is left to fill the role he abandons and the power-balance shifts; and he increasingly doesn't matter. I think its natural that respect and concern for him declines - he's not really participating. He's abdicating or following.
> 
> I'll tell you how it went for me, and my case probably isn't even the most "doormat-ish"; and at the beginning of the relationship I was unarguably the more assertive, dominant person in the relationship. But I had a ***** in the armor - an unrecognized self-esteem issue that if push came to shove - I would give her what she wants to make her happy. A subtle overvaluing of what she wanted vs what I wanted, and willingness to choose her happiness above mine - "what makes her happy makes me happy" or so I thought. It didn't make itself visible until she wanted something very different from what I wanted, and no compromise was possible: having children.
> 
> My slide into being passive happened as a result of having kids. I gave in to having them when I didn't want to, and certainly wasn't ready to... but it was very important to her. I abdicated responsibility - I didn't lead and didn't assert myself and my role in parenting. When it came to the kids, my ex was God and I just followed instructions. She made all child related decisions. It turns out, children occupy most of your daily life and aren't as easily compartmentalized into "child area". So I spent a lot of time in an oddly submissive role - not having an opinion - a heavy imbalance of power that I accepted by always deferring to her. I didn't show leadership or advance any opinion of parenting of my own. In not even having opinions I was accepting a submissive role. I suspect this affected how she felt about me. She would say she wanted me to be more involved with the kids, but to my mind, I was very involved - I did whatever she wanted me to do. But what I think I understand today, is that she wanted me to take more of the lead with the kids. Don't just do what she wants - have an opinion. I didn't have an opinion. This wasn't my thing. I didn't want responsibility and I didn't have interest. I was an employee.
> 
> Having children touches almost every aspect of your life, so this basically appointed her ruler. What shall we eat tonight? Depends on the kids. What do we do this weekend? Depends on the kids. What are our vacation plans? Where do we buy a house? What time must we get home? What time do we go to bed? Everything depended on the kids and thus I deferred to and accepted whatever her judgment was without any thought to personal desire.
> 
> So I enabled her prioritization of the children and probably cost myself a ton of attractiveness in not having more of an opinion. I wasn't an equal participant. I was doing equal WORK... but I understand this to be a different thing now. I enabled her treating me as a second class citizen. I was submissive, and at the time, I was not even aware of it or how it happened . That was the role I adopted for myself by my lack of opinion/assertiveness in that new direction of our relationship.
> 
> Almost no one I know would think me low self-esteem or lacking assertiveness, and yet I completely fell on my face by deferring and putting someone else's happiness above my own. Her subsequent treatment of me came about as a result of my long, unaware slide of enabling behavior.
> 
> At least, this is my current understanding of how things evolved for me. How I went from being dominant to being passive, to allowing neglect, and eventually secretly wandering. I'd taken on a host of weak, passive characteristics without it dawning on me.


This is a fantastic post.

And, taking it two degrees further... simply imagine being a stepfather with a disordered female spouse.

Low man in the house was the ONLY option available to me - without a seismic event to shake things up.

Over time, the seismic event becomes more and more attractive.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Dunno... my guess would be that people don't recognize what they're doing. How we treat others is influenced by how they allow themselves to be treated - even when we're otherwise good people. A doormat erodes virtually anyone's respect for them, and there's a slow gradual slide into mistreatment.
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't think they see it. Kinda like the man whose wife does all the household chores. From what I've heard on those cases, he originally did some things and over time they just sort of fell off his plate (which is to say, she started doing them without asserting herself that it was his responsibility). After that, it just doesn't enter his mind. Her behavior - doing everything - becomes the norm... the expectation. Maybe its like that?
> 
> 
> 
> I think its complicated, and it happens slowly... but maybe a bit different in each case.
> 
> Let me just say first that I don't think the majority of these cases are of women who just want a nice guy to mistreat - I don't think most start off as bad people. I think its the man's way of being that enables, even encourages mistreatment. I think even the shirking of responsibility or lack of caring/opinion can be signs a person is unassertive in a particular area. She is left to fill the role he abandons and the power-balance shifts; and he increasingly doesn't matter. I think its natural that respect and concern for him declines - he's not really participating. He's abdicating or following.
> 
> I'll tell you how it went for me, and my case probably isn't even the most "doormat-ish"; and at the beginning of the relationship I was unarguably the more assertive, dominant person in the relationship. But I had a ***** in the armor - an unrecognized self-esteem issue that if push came to shove - I would give her what she wants to make her happy. A subtle overvaluing of what she wanted vs what I wanted, and willingness to choose her happiness above mine - "what makes her happy makes me happy" or so I thought. It didn't make itself visible until she wanted something very different from what I wanted, and no compromise was possible: having children.
> 
> My slide into being passive happened as a result of having kids. I gave in to having them when I didn't want to, and certainly wasn't ready to... but it was very important to her. I abdicated responsibility - I didn't lead and didn't assert myself and my role in parenting. When it came to the kids, my ex was God and I just followed instructions. She made all child related decisions. It turns out, children occupy most of your daily life and aren't as easily compartmentalized into "child area". So I spent a lot of time in an oddly submissive role - not having an opinion - a heavy imbalance of power that I accepted by always deferring to her. I didn't show leadership or advance any opinion of parenting of my own. In not even having opinions I was accepting a submissive role. I suspect this affected how she felt about me. She would say she wanted me to be more involved with the kids, but to my mind, I was very involved - I did whatever she wanted me to do. But what I think I understand today, is that she wanted me to take more of the lead with the kids. Don't just do what she wants - have an opinion. I didn't have an opinion. This wasn't my thing. I didn't want responsibility and I didn't have interest. I was an employee.
> 
> Having children touches almost every aspect of your life, so this basically appointed her ruler. What shall we eat tonight? Depends on the kids. What do we do this weekend? Depends on the kids. What are our vacation plans? Where do we buy a house? What time must we get home? What time do we go to bed? Everything depended on the kids and thus I deferred to and accepted whatever her judgment was without any thought to personal desire.
> 
> So I enabled her prioritization of the children and probably cost myself a ton of attractiveness in not having more of an opinion. I wasn't an equal participant. I was doing equal WORK... but I understand this to be a different thing now. I enabled her treating me as a second class citizen. I was submissive, and at the time, I was not even aware of it or how it happened . That was the role I adopted for myself by my lack of opinion/assertiveness in that new direction of our relationship.
> 
> Almost no one I know would think me low self-esteem or lacking assertiveness, and yet I completely fell on my face by deferring and putting someone else's happiness above my own. Her subsequent treatment of me came about as a result of my long, unaware slide of enabling behavior.
> 
> At least, this is my current understanding of how things evolved for me. How I went from being dominant to being passive, to allowing neglect, and eventually secretly wandering. I'd taken on a host of weak, passive characteristics without it dawning on me.


A-fricking-men to the wisdom of this post.


----------



## Caribbean Man

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> Nobody can have a happy marriage with a narcissist.


Kinda late to the thread today.

You are correct. Can't be happy with someone who sucks the very will to live out of you.
One of the main if not the main objectives in life and marriage is happiness.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

PHTlump said:


> If you're basing your understanding of Christianity on your cousin's behavior, you're missing quite a bit. Similarly, I wouldn't suggest using the behavior of Jeffrey Dahmer to gain insight into the standard practices of atheists.


Of course not. I was just pointing out the similarities in the way you and my cousin think. Both of you feel that husbands should lead their wives, based on Biblical reasons. 

He was married to a woman whom he admonished for being "disobedient." I found it funny that my cousin expected his ex-wife to pay half the mortgage, yet he wanted to boss her around. 

If a man expects to be the head of the home, he should be willing to shoulder most of the financial responsibility. A marriage cannot just be traditional in ways that are convenient for the man or the woman. My cousin reminds me of women who call themselves feminists, yet expect men to pay for them. Can't have it both ways! 

In any case, I was not saying that all Christian men are like my cousin.


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> That covers the physique pretty well, but we've got to work on your vibe.


It's a good thing you're not gay, Machiavelli, cuz you have absolutely the *worst* taste in men.

And seem to be trying to "pull" the worst sort of women. Exactly the sort of narcissist that Journeybegins probably wants to avoid.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

always_alone said:


> It's a good thing you're not gay, Machiavelli, cuz you have absolutely the *worst* taste in men.


LOL I was thinking the same thing. My first thought was that most of the women I've seen posting on threads that ask about their preferences are really turned off by that body type.


----------



## Conrad

WorkingOnMe said:


> LOL I was thinking the same thing. My first thought was that most of the women I've seen posting on threads that ask about their preferences are really turned off by that body type.


Until they aren't.


----------



## Machiavelli

always_alone said:


> It's a good thing you're not gay, Machiavelli, cuz you have absolutely the *worst* taste in men.
> 
> And seem to be trying to "pull" the worst sort of women. Exactly the sort of narcissist that Journeybegins probably wants to avoid.





WorkingOnMe said:


> LOL I was thinking the same thing. My first thought was that most of the women I've seen posting on threads that ask about their preferences are really turned off by that body type.


You guys are hurting in the reading comprehension department, as I never stated what I preferred to look like in that post. Reeves had an FFMI of 25. That's the highest combination of muscularity and leanness one can achieve without steroids and it requires you to be way out on the edge of the genetic bell curve for muscle mass. Reeves was probably one in 5 million. To spell it out for you, that means the likelihood of OP having 9% BF @ 170# @ 5'7" is zero. OP needs to cut fat unless he looks like Steve Reeves (9% BF). The average male has a maximum non-steroid potential of 19 so that's going to be out of reach for most guys.

Who was Steve Reeves? AAU Mr America 1947 and he was the highest paid film actor in Europe in the early 60s. He was attacked by women wherever he went, even before he was a film star. At one premier, the women broke the police line and stripped him naked except for one trouser leg.

Now, in my own personal experience, the closer I got to FFMI 25, the more I was approached by women and the more receptive they were to me. Research has shown that women prefer more muscular men to less muscular men when the women are ovulating. This is why physique preferences expressed today by a woman, are not necessarily the physique preferences she will be acting upon next week. I don't know if they were ovulating, but I do know I turned down a lot of offers. So, my personal preference is to get my FFMI as high as possible, since that's when I got hit on by the most and the hottest women.

See, y'all have an argument, I have experiences. Many of them.


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> See, y'all have an argument, I have experiences. Many of them.


Oh, I have experiences too. Many of them. And I can assure you that only certain kinds of women are going to be attacking a muscle man on the streets to rip his clothes off.

Now if you dig groupies, I guess you're golden. But my impression is that getting with the batsh!t crazy narcissists is exactly the sort of thing that lands men at TAM.

KWIM?


----------



## Conrad

always_alone said:


> Oh, I have experiences too. Many of them. And I can assure you that only certain kinds of women are going to be attacking a muscle man on the streets to rip his clothes off.
> 
> Now if you dig groupies, I guess you're golden. But my impression is that getting with the batsh!t crazy narcissists is exactly the sort of thing that lands men at TAM.
> 
> KWIM?


Does it take work to be consistently and persistently dismissive?


----------



## PHTlump

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> Of course not. I was just pointing out the similarities in the way you and my cousin think. Both of you feel that husbands should lead their wives, based on Biblical reasons.


I doubt you have a grasp on how I think. Perhaps you understand your cousin better, but I couldn't say.

While I do think a husband has a duty to lead the household, I've stated before, multiple times, that a leader isn't an overseer and a follower isn't a slave. And any Christian can tell you that biblical headship isn't about fear or holding all the power.

If your cousin wants his wife to be a slave who is afraid of him, it's not because he's a Christian. Similarly, I wouldn't try to link Jeffrey Dahmer's lust for homosexual necrophilia with his atheism.


----------



## Wolf1974

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Dunno... my guess would be that people don't recognize what they're doing. How we treat others is influenced by how they allow themselves to be treated - even when we're otherwise good people. A doormat erodes virtually anyone's respect for them, and there's a slow gradual slide into mistreatment.
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't think they see it. Kinda like the man whose wife does all the household chores. From what I've heard on those cases, he originally did some things and over time they just sort of fell off his plate (which is to say, she started doing them without asserting herself that it was his responsibility). After that, it just doesn't enter his mind. Her behavior - doing everything - becomes the norm... the expectation. Maybe its like that?
> 
> 
> 
> I think its complicated, and it happens slowly... but maybe a bit different in each case.
> 
> Let me just say first that I don't think the majority of these cases are of women who just want a nice guy to mistreat - I don't think most start off as bad people. I think its the man's way of being that enables, even encourages mistreatment. I think even the shirking of responsibility or lack of caring/opinion can be signs a person is unassertive in a particular area. She is left to fill the role he abandons and the power-balance shifts; and he increasingly doesn't matter. I think its natural that respect and concern for him declines - he's not really participating. He's abdicating or following.
> 
> I'll tell you how it went for me, and my case probably isn't even the most "doormat-ish"; and at the beginning of the relationship I was unarguably the more assertive, dominant person in the relationship. But I had a ***** in the armor - an unrecognized self-esteem issue that if push came to shove - I would give her what she wants to make her happy. A subtle overvaluing of what she wanted vs what I wanted, and willingness to choose her happiness above mine - "what makes her happy makes me happy" or so I thought. It didn't make itself visible until she wanted something very different from what I wanted, and no compromise was possible: having children.
> 
> My slide into being passive happened as a result of having kids. I gave in to having them when I didn't want to, and certainly wasn't ready to... but it was very important to her. I abdicated responsibility - I didn't lead and didn't assert myself and my role in parenting. When it came to the kids, my ex was God and I just followed instructions. She made all child related decisions. It turns out, children occupy most of your daily life and aren't as easily compartmentalized into "child area". So I spent a lot of time in an oddly submissive role - not having an opinion - a heavy imbalance of power that I accepted by always deferring to her. I didn't show leadership or advance any opinion of parenting of my own. In not even having opinions I was accepting a submissive role. I suspect this affected how she felt about me. She would say she wanted me to be more involved with the kids, but to my mind, I was very involved - I did whatever she wanted me to do. But what I think I understand today, is that she wanted me to take more of the lead with the kids. Don't just do what she wants - have an opinion. I didn't have an opinion. This wasn't my thing. I didn't want responsibility and I didn't have interest. I was an employee.
> 
> Having children touches almost every aspect of your life, so this basically appointed her ruler. What shall we eat tonight? Depends on the kids. What do we do this weekend? Depends on the kids. What are our vacation plans? Where do we buy a house? What time must we get home? What time do we go to bed? Everything depended on the kids and thus I deferred to and accepted whatever her judgment was without any thought to personal desire.
> 
> So I enabled her prioritization of the children and probably cost myself a ton of attractiveness in not having more of an opinion. I wasn't an equal participant. I was doing equal WORK... but I understand this to be a different thing now. I enabled her treating me as a second class citizen. I was submissive, and at the time, I was not even aware of it or how it happened . That was the role I adopted for myself by my lack of opinion/assertiveness in that new direction of our relationship.
> 
> Almost no one I know would think me low self-esteem or lacking assertiveness, and yet I completely fell on my face by deferring and putting someone else's happiness above my own. Her subsequent treatment of me came about as a result of my long, unaware slide of enabling behavior.
> 
> At least, this is my current understanding of how things evolved for me. How I went from being dominant to being passive, to allowing neglect, and eventually secretly wandering. I'd taken on a host of weak, passive characteristics without it dawning on me.




Just WOW sir, I had never considered this in my own past but this is exactly what happened to me.  I started loosing the leadership role when kids came along. Because they were daughters my x reminded me often how little I knew about them. I love them though and wanted best for them and then my dad comes along with this outdated gem"if momma ain't happy then no ones is"

So I abdicated my role and she got it. She picked the house she wanted the lifestyle she wanted even choose what position I would have at work because it was better for her schedule. all while in the back of my mind "if momma ain't happy no one is".....

Quickly the priorities became her, her job, kids, house, dog then me. Interesting how I never saw it this way before your experience was shared. Also shows now why she is so aggravated because I've taken back control of my life.....oh well


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

WorkingOnMe said:


> LOL I was thinking the same thing. My first thought was that most of the women I've seen posting on threads that ask about their preferences are really turned off by that body type.


haha me too when I first read it. I'm not sure that's exactly what he was going for though.


----------



## ocotillo

Wolf1974 said:


> ...Because they were daughters my x reminded me often how little I knew about them. I love them though and wanted best for them and then my dad comes along with this outdated gem"if momma ain't happy then no ones is"


I had just the opposite experience with daughters. They stuck to me like glue when they were tiny and thought I walked on water when they were a little older. They'd argue with their mother and quote me to prove that she was wrong. :rofl:

But depending upon what you read, being too good with the children is not an, "Alpha" trait either :scratchhead:


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Machiavelli said:


> See, y'all have an argument, I have experiences. Many of them.


I'd just like to point out that I was significantly bigger in my low 20s in the Marines, and for every girl that liked the muscle, there was a girl who thought it was too much or more specifically, thought that I was overly concerned with my appearance.

I'm inclined to think that, aesthetically, women like good proportion, nice musculature and decently lean, but not so much bulk. In citing research on the appeal of muscle mass to women, I'm inclined to question it on causal grounds. I believe that the attraction is more to the increased confidence derived from being the bigger guy than from the actual visual appeal of muscle mass. Its certainly not valid to cite a celebrity - even ugly celebs get more attention than they otherwise would - they have status.

I was never huge, but when I had good about of muscle readily apparent beneath my clothes, I definitely felt more in command of a room full of skinny, skinnyfat or big soft guys. Yet today I get more attention with less body... and I think its because I have a more outgoing personality today. For whatever its worth - it always seems women have a hard time judging men by appearance alone. They seem to want to see how he carries himself.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Wolf1974 said:


> Also shows now why she is so aggravated because I've taken back control of my life.....oh well


I certainly didn't arrive at my conclusions in time for them to matter, even if they are correct.

I would hope however, that even though restoring the balance would probably be met with aggravation and resistance, in the long term it would be healthier for the marriage - and each partner's attraction. Assuming you're really asserting your role as an equal partner in everything, as opposed to just asserting yourself where you want to, or asserting yourself just to be assertive... if you know what I'm trying to say.


----------



## Conrad

Wolf1974 said:


> Just WOW sir, I had never considered this in my own past but this is exactly what happened to me. I started loosing the leadership role when kids came along. Because they were daughters my x reminded me often how little I knew about them. I love them though and wanted best for them and then my dad comes along with this outdated gem"if momma ain't happy then no ones is"
> 
> So I abdicated my role and she got it. She picked the house she wanted the lifestyle she wanted even choose what position I would have at work because it was better for her schedule. all while in the back of my mind "if momma ain't happy no one is".....
> 
> Quickly the priorities became her, her job, kids, house, dog then me. Interesting how I never saw it this way before your experience was shared. Also shows now why she is so aggravated because I've taken back control of my life.....oh well


It's a formula for becoming the least important person in your own house.

You can turn that around.

Step-parents may not be able to.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its certainly not valid to cite a celebrity - even ugly celebs get more attention than they otherwise would - they have status.


Yes, when even the Ramones have women throwing themselves at them and ripping off their clothes, you know it's not about looks or physique.

Although Joey was pretty lean. I wonder what his % body fat was? Probably zero.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Just an update. My SO shared with me after the fight that she did NOT want to leave, and expressed her love for me, desire for me physically, and her deep caring for me over and over. I discussed this with my therapist (she has some very strong NPD tendencies for sure), and we came up with a plan. 

I sat her down and basically gave her an ultimatim....specific S.M.A.R.T goals that would have to be accomplished (or at least 50% accomplished) by a certain date. If these things are not accomplished, or measurable (50%) progress has not been made by that date, she must leave. She readily agreed to all of them. She seemed very happy, very relived, and freer than she has in weeks.

Don't worry; I'm not taken in by anything. I know that the chances that she'll survive THIS test are not high...but I have a measurable plan now, and support of my therapist and (I hope) you folks too.

Some of the goals:

1. Twice weekly meetings between us to communicate and TALK OUT concerns without time limits for the 1st week, then weekly.
2. Penetrative sex at least 3 times/week and 2x on weekends in order to form habits and promote stress reduction. Rebukes OF ANY KIND for initiating sex not acceptable for either party
3. One date night/week WITHOUT the kids. Activity to be chosen by me. 
4. Full agreement that decisions, while there is room for discussion, will be finalized by me and supported (in private and in public) by her. NO arguing or bickering (or poor treatment) in front of the kids. This one is hard to quantify, but ANY slippage needs to be documented and discussed.
5. By virtue of the financial, physical and interpersonal situation of my house, she agrees that we will talk together as equals, but that I will be "Captain" and she will act as "FO" in the final analysis and in front of the kids. Any resistance to be documented and discussed. All documentation will figure into compliance.

There are some other minor points, but there is little wiggle-room here. If by the date we set with my therapist (to be set in a day or so) this isn't accomplished (and my therapist gets the sense from the two of us that this is moving forward), she must leave.

She knows I'm dead serious; this was the first time I have EVER suggested she leave with a drop-dead date, and with a calm, non-dramatic demeanor, but with a measured, confident voice that clearly delivered the message that "I don't care how good you are in bed and how much I'll miss you personally, I'm ready AND WILLING to give you up to rid myself of your abuse."



Oh, and I am 17% body fat (calipers), and don't really want to look like Steve "he's got muscles in his ear" Reeves....:lol:


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Woah... I've gotten a full page away from writing a long post full of intuitive reasoning without having someone telling me how wrong I am. I must be losing my touch. 

Journey, looks like a good plan to me. I wish you the best!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Woah... I've gotten a full page away from writing a long post full of intuitive reasoning without having someone telling me how wrong I am. I must be losing my touch.
> 
> Journey, looks like a good plan to me. I wish you the best!


ya f***in slacker  Even I couldn't find anything to pick apart 

Journey,great plan and I really hope she can pull her head out of her hiney to make it work.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> Journey,great plan and I really hope she can pull her head out of her hiney to make it work.


Me too.

She was really quite into it....and when we hit the bedroom she was rarin' to go....she climbed on top for a bit, but when when I couldn't hold back any more, I pretty forcefully flipped her over on her back and took her. She seemed to LOVE that.

Hope springs eternal.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Me too.
> 
> She was really quite into it....and when we hit the bedroom she was rarin' to go....she climbed on top for a bit, but when when I couldn't hold back any more, I pretty forcefully flipped her over on her back and took her. She seemed to LOVE that.
> 
> Hope springs eternal.


Hyper-bonding to show you what you'd be missing if she doesn't improve in other areas and you make her leave. 

Stay strong doll.Don't let the p**sy hypnotize ya!


----------



## COGypsy

Amazing how enthusiastic one can become when the alternative is being homeless.....

It sounds like a good start on changing things, just be sure that the probation period you have her on is long enough to actually prove lasting change.


----------



## Machiavelli

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Her subsequent treatment of me came about as a result of my long, unaware slide of enabling behavior.
> 
> At least, this is my current understanding of how things evolved for me. How I went from being dominant to being passive, to allowing neglect, and eventually secretly wandering. I'd taken on a host of weak, passive characteristics without it dawning on me.


I believe this happens on even little things that we men don't even have an opinion on; things much more trivial than the kids, like where to eat dinner. That's a stereotype that was certainly true for us. Now, I just go and if she has a serious object, we'll discuss it. Otherwise I'm the one picking. Crazy that it should even affect a relationship.


----------



## Cynthia

I think a lot of times when a woman says, "I don't care" or "You pick," she is asking him to make a decision.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Dinner discussions: 
Me: "It's friday night.I'm not cooking.What should we eat?"
Him: "that's cool baby.You feel like anything in particular?"
Me: "eh,not really.Whatever you pick is fine."
Him: "ugh.I hate when you make me pick.You never pick.I always pick."
Me: "*laughing* ok...how about we go to 'insert restaurant' "
Him: "perfect."

LOL I hate the dinner discussions unless I'm cooking.If I'm the one in the kitchen I get to choose what's coming out of it.

Alternative endings to that include "that's cool baby,i'm kinda in the mood for 'insert type of food'" and I agree every time.


----------



## Machiavelli

WorkingOnMe said:


> LOL I was thinking the same thing. My first thought was that most of the women I've seen posting on threads that ask about their preferences are really turned off by that body type.





DvlsAdvc8 said:


> haha me too when I first read it. I'm not sure that's exactly what he was going for though.


That's why you want to watch to see who they actually go for and not who they SAY they go for. And also remember that what they say they go for changes over the course of their cycle, along with what they act on. As with most human activities for male and female alike, what the cortex approves of, often gets derailed by what the limbic desires. And that's why that's why we have words like "self-justification" and "rationalization."


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Woah... I've gotten a full page away from writing a long post full of intuitive reasoning without having someone telling me how wrong I am. I must be losing my touch.


If it makes you feel any better, I was tempted to, but then decided it didn't matter what I had to say.


----------



## Wolf1974

Conrad said:


> It's a formula for becoming the least important person in your own house.
> 
> You can turn that around.
> 
> Step-parents may not be able to.


I have. We are divorced now after she had an affair and now I raise my daughters 1/2 time. But least I can raise them without her belittling and condemnation


----------



## Conrad

Machiavelli said:


> I believe this happens on even little things that we men don't even have an opinion on; things much more trivial than the kids, like where to eat dinner. That's a stereotype that was certainly true for us. Now, I just go and if she has a serious object, we'll discuss it. Otherwise I'm the one picking. Crazy that it should even affect a relationship.


The rear-view mirror is so revealing.

As you know, I picked up a very strong mentor here when I started reading exchanges between BBW and MEM.

It IS the little things.

I realized that my wife was asking her oldest daughter what we should have for dinner 5-6 nights per week. And, I was getting pressure (from same daughter) to make sure dinner hits the exact time she wanted to eat, as this was critical for her diet.

Little dots started showing up on food, which was "only" for that child, and no one else should eat it.

(Of course, you know whose earnings were paying for those groceries)

Yes, as I mentioned earlier... the seismic event started looking more and more attractive.


----------



## Conrad

always_alone said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I was tempted to, but then decided it didn't matter what I had to say.


I breathed a sigh of relief on his behalf.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Me too.
> 
> She was really quite into it....and when we hit the bedroom she was rarin' to go....she climbed on top for a bit, but when when I couldn't hold back any more, I pretty forcefully flipped her over on her back and took her. She seemed to LOVE that.
> 
> Hope springs eternal.


Just out of curiosity, what would you have done if your wife did not want to be taken? Would you have kicked her out of the house right then?

I love the way you are standing up for yourself. I am just wondering what will happen the first time you make a decision as the "Captain" that your wife doesn't like. People do not automatically change from screeching harridans to docile sweethearts over night. 

I am happy for both of you. However, I am concerned that your wife will only act the part to keep your wallet open. 

Be careful my friend. I wish you all the best.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I was tempted to, but then decided it didn't matter what I had to say.


lol 

Well, progress is good... but where's my sammich?  

jk... still love ya AA.


----------



## Holland

WorkingOnMe said:


> LOL I was thinking the same thing. My first thought was that most of the women I've seen posting on threads that ask about their preferences are really turned off by that body type.


That type of body is a huge turnoff for me.


----------



## Machiavelli

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'd just like to point out that I was significantly bigger in my low 20s in the Marines, and for every girl that liked the muscle, there was a girl who thought it was too much or more specifically, *thought that I was overly concerned with my appearance*.


That bolded quote is a direct hit. Unless a woman is herself very into the "gym scene" and so-called "fitness" there is a chance she will be turned off if she gets the impression that you're working too hard to maintain your appearance. This is especially so if you don't have anything going for you other than a physique. Reproductively/subconsciously, the woman is looking for a guy with a great physique that occurs naturally, not via 20 hours a week in the gym, because that is a marker of good genes and fighting ability (very important).

I actually had girls tell me that my brother's physique was a turnoff to them, only the fact is that I was taller and more muscular. The difference was that I didn't go around flexing in every reflection I walked past and I didn't wear sweatshirts with the sleeves tore off and other bodybuilder associated crap. The point is the V torso, not the biceps.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'm inclined to think that, aesthetically, women like good proportion, nice musculature and decently lean, but not so much bulk. In citing research on the appeal of muscle mass to women, I'm inclined to question it on causal grounds.


The magic number for leanness is 9% BF or better and the smallest waist possible. Golden Shoulder Waist Ratio and the volume of muscle at the shoulders required to achieve that are a function of the waist measurement. This is why neither muscularity without leanness nor a modern, thick-waist bodybuilding physique works as an attractor of women. 



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I believe that the attraction is more to the increased confidence derived from being the bigger guy than from the actual visual appeal of muscle mass. Its certainly not valid to cite a celebrity - even ugly celebs get more attention than they otherwise would - they have status.


Remember what I said about Steve Reeves; he had women all over him when it was inappropriate and when he was a 20 year old nobody. In my own case, I was often approached by women, when I was seated, had never meet them, hadn't said a word, but merely sitting and watching the band and sipping my Perrier water. I didn't even have an opportunity to display confidence, swagger, or alpha poses, but here they came.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I was never huge, but when I had good about of muscle readily apparent beneath my clothes, I definitely felt more in command of a room full of skinny, skinnyfat or big soft guys. Yet today I get more attention with less body... and I think its because* I have a more outgoing personality today*.


Very astute observation. May I suggest that now that you have something to work with that appeals to them personality wise, you have a much greater ability to retain their attention in depth, as opposed to being superficially attracted to the physique, coming around, and then dismissing you. Furthermore, the longer you retain the attention of one girl, the greater your degree of perceived preselection from other women in proximity, and so on.

You've got to have something to back up the body.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> For whatever its worth - it always seems women have a hard time judging men by appearance alone. *They seem to want to see how he carries himself.*


And there you have it. If the physique is there, you get the opportunity to demonstrate what else you've got. If the physique is not there, she doesn't even see you. You're invisible. Guys in that boat have to do something to get attention and say, hey, look at me. If you've got the physique they come to you to give you the opportunity to win them over. The same reproductive realities that make a V torso so appealing to most women (fittest mate selectivity) are also driving them to not abandon their vetting process at the first step. They're looking for attitude and confidence to be demonstrated once they make the approach.


----------



## Machiavelli

ScarletBegonias said:


> Dinner discussions:
> Me: "It's friday night.I'm not cooking.What should we eat?"
> Him: "that's cool baby.You feel like anything in particular?"
> Me: "eh,not really.Whatever you pick is fine."
> Him: "ugh.I hate when you make me pick.You never pick.I always pick."
> Me: "*laughing* ok...how about we go to 'insert restaurant' "
> Him: "perfect."
> 
> LOL I hate the dinner discussions unless I'm cooking.If I'm the one in the kitchen I get to choose what's coming out of it.
> 
> Alternative endings to that include "that's cool baby,i'm kinda in the mood for 'insert type of food'" and I agree every time.


The Restaurant Script


----------



## Machiavelli

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Just an update.


This is a good update, with potentially good results, but don't let your approach get too clinical. As you already know, women just do not respond the way they should to Power Point presentations on how the two of you are going to increase sexual frequency in the marriage by implementing 46 bullet points.

Keep reading MMSLP and look into The Sixteen Commandments. The 16 are more directed at GFs, rather than LTRs, but you're plenty smart enough to keep the elements that are appropriate.



TheJourneyBegins said:


> Oh, and I am 17% body fat (calipers), and don't really want to look like Steve "he's got muscles in his ear" Reeves....:lol:


And that's fine, I'm just telling you that the Golden SWR triggers a certain sexual response in most women at some point or another in their cycle, and a 32" waist and six pack is just about 100%.


----------



## Machiavelli

Holland said:


> That type of body is a huge turnoff for me.


Just out of curiosity, which of these two do you like best?


----------



## ocotillo

Machiavelli said:


> Reproductively/subconsciously, the woman is looking for a guy with a great physique that occurs naturally, not via 20 hours a week in the gym, because that is a marker of good genes and fighting ability (very important).


Is there a correlation between a particular body style and fighting ability? (Other than size and strength of course...)

In mosaics of famous Roman gladiators for example, some seem to have the V shape, while others look heavier in the butt and thighs like an NFL lineman. Of course those aren't actual photographs I guess...


----------



## Caribbean Man

ocotillo said:


> Is there a correlation between a particular body style and fighting ability? (Other than size and strength of course...)
> 
> In mosaics of famous Roman gladiators for example, some seem to have the V shape, while others look heavier in the butt and thighs like an NFL lineman. Of course those aren't actual photographs I guess...


I sometimes wonder the same 
And I also see it in Greek art and artifacts.

The male bodies represented in their art looks like ripped and muscular almost as if they're on steroids.
I sometimes wonder if those figures are just an exaggeration or a real representation?
If they are the latter , then those men had excellent physiques, even by today's standards.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> Just out of curiosity, which of these two do you like best?


Lol,
Where do you get these^^^ things?


----------



## MEM2020

Journey,
It's her, but it's you too. 

I can say with certainty that she HATES long, detailed conversations about:
- Her transgressions 
- Your feelings about them and her

If you want this to work, the weekly status meeting goes like this:
- We had a good week
- I'm looking forward to having another 
OR
- I'll help you move. I'm going to miss you, but this isn't working for me

That's it. Stay out of the weeds in any weekly talk. 

During the week and in the moment, you react to what you don't like with one of the following phrases:
- GF name (just her name - sharp tone - no increase in your normal speech volume): when she looks at you, you shake your head twice. That's it. 

She knows when she is out of line. So don't waste breath explaining it to her. And if she argues at all, let her finish and if what she says makes sense - say 'ok'. Otherwise be silent. Don't even respond. 

Do not give ONE inch on anything, in the hope you can avoid conflict and get laid that night. Because that's how you dug this ever so deep hole in the first place. 

If she is disrespectful and argues, and then sulks when you are silent that's on her. It only becomes your issue when you try to nice her out of her sulk caused by a conflict she initiated. 

So while she sulks, you go elsewhere and entertain yourself. 

And when she comes to bed, if she is still sulking, ignore her. Don't initiate sex. Show her that you respect yourself way too much to initiate in the face of persistent disrespectful behavior. 

If she tries her little turn around game - calls you crabby. Just smile and don't respond. You don't have to speak when she is being deliberately manipulative. 

You will quickly learn that she WILL apologize if you freeze her out when she is hostile or playing head games. 

It might happen the next day. But you can wake up knowing you didn't trade self respect for sex. As that is a certain road to celibacy. 




TheJourneyBegins said:


> Me too.
> 
> She was really quite into it....and when we hit the bedroom she was rarin' to go....she climbed on top for a bit, but when when I couldn't hold back any more, I pretty forcefully flipped her over on her back and took her. She seemed to LOVE that.
> 
> Hope springs eternal.


----------



## Cynthia

Caribbean Man said:


> I sometimes wonder the same
> And I also see it in Greek art and artifacts.
> 
> The male bodies represented in their art looks like ripped and muscular almost as if they're on steroids.
> I sometimes wonder if those figures are just an exaggeration or a real representation?
> If they are the latter , then those men had excellent physiques, even by today's standards.


They were all eating 100% organic meats and vegetables and not a lot of grains. They were not eating processed foods or drinking pop and the other junk people are eating today. Plus they worked physically. That is the right combination for a great physique.


----------



## ocotillo

Caribbean Man said:


> If they are the latter , then those men had excellent physiques, even by today's standards.


Like Heracles? V shape or not, I wouldn't want that character taking a swing at me.


----------



## ocotillo

Holland said:


> That type of body is a huge turnoff for me.


Because of the tiny equipment?

--So sorry. --Couldn't resist.


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> Just out of curiosity, which of these two do you like best?


Talk about your false dichotomies...


The Golden ratio is phi 1.618, and is said to reflect beauty in all of nature, art, and architecture, little of which has anything to do with limbic system sexual attraction

David does obey that ratio too, as measured from his navel to the joints in his fingers. 

Now *that's* sexy.:rofl::rofl:

As for his shoulder-waist? Quite narrow. Not as much as da Vinci, but certainly narrower than Michaelangelo's typical style. And a *lot* narrower than the muscle-bound steroid guys.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Journey,
> It's her, but it's you too.
> 
> I can say with certainty that she HATES long, detailed conversations about:
> - Her transgressions
> - Your feelings about them and her


I agree that no one wants to hear about their transgressions, and will most likely just respond with defensiveness, but what is wrong about opening lines of communication and having genuine heart to hearts?

It's true she has already demonstrated resistance with her stopwatch tactics, and refusal to engage, but honestly, it sounds to me like she absolutely needs to learn to be more open to other people's feelings. And if she can't manage a bit of that, maybe it's better to know sooner, rather than later?


----------



## Caribbean Man

CynthiaDe said:


> They were all eating 100% organic meats and vegetables and not a lot of grains. They were not eating processed foods or drinking pop and the other junk people are eating today. Plus they worked physically. That is the right combination for a great physique.


To add,
Greeks men and boys were also very athletic. If my memory serves me right they started the Olympics Games?


----------



## MEM2020

Always,
She does need that. But we've both seen this:

Scenario 1:
Partner cues us that they don't like what we just did. It is a clear but brief cue. 

We take a moment to process and either realize - oops that wasn't cool or genuinely don't know. Now in their case, mostly she does know. She simply doesn't choose to regulate her emotions around him. 

In the cases she doesn't know, she won't argue she will ask him: why are you not ok with what I just did? 

And he should answer, but it ought to be a one sentence response. 

Scenario 2: 
We make a mistake and get an encyclopedia Britannia sized analysis of it.....



always_alone said:


> I agree that no one wants to hear about their transgressions, and will most likely just respond with defensiveness, but what is wrong about opening lines of communication and having genuine heart to hearts?
> 
> It's true she has already demonstrated resistance with her stopwatch tactics, and refusal to engage, but honestly, it sounds to me like she absolutely needs to learn to be more open to other people's feelings. And if she can't manage a bit of that, maybe it's better to know sooner, rather than later?


----------



## Cynthia

Caribbean Man said:


> To add,
> Greeks men and boys were also very athletic. If my memory serves me right they started the Olympics Games?


Yes, the Greeks started the Olympics. It is named after Mt. Olympus, in Greece.


----------



## over20

CynthiaDe said:


> I think a lot of times when a woman says, "I don't care" or "You pick," she is asking him to make a decision.


I think this is very true....she craves that raw male leadership.....did I say that out loud..:rofl: at least that is me. It turns me on very much when DH takes control (always in a firm but loving way).


----------



## Machiavelli

ocotillo said:


> Is there a correlation between a particular body style and fighting ability? (Other than size and strength of course...)


The key thing in savage club fighting is apparently upper body mass and strength. Women will often have a strong positive reaction to a well built torso and overlook underdeveloped legs. And it is still common to see such with MMA fighters.



ocotillo said:


> In mosaics of famous Roman gladiators for example, some seem to have the V shape, while others look heavier in the butt and thighs like an NFL lineman. Of course those aren't actual photographs I guess...


Some gladiators deliberately added a thick layer of subcutaneous body fat by eating copious quantities of barley. Grains were just as fattening then as now. The purpose was supposedly to put the vital muscle under that fat layer so shallow cuts were not catastrophic. I've read that gladiators were also called "barley men" for this reason.



Caribbean Man said:


> I sometimes wonder the same
> And I also see it in Greek art and artifacts.
> 
> The male bodies represented in their art looks like ripped and muscular almost as if they're on steroids.
> I sometimes wonder if those figures are just an exaggeration or a real representation?
> If they are the latter , then those men had excellent physiques, even by today's standards.


They didn't have steroids, but they did have bodybuilding. That and pankration was the purpose of the gymnasium and we know they had fixed dumbbells very much like our own. Physique training applied to men and women (but not in Athens). Spartan women worked out nude, including runs through the streets. Remember, there had to be models for those statues, otherwise how would one know to execute them in an anatomically and proportionally correct manner?

Even without systematic physique sculpting in the Greek way, constant training for battle from age 8 upward tended to develop a fair bit of muscle. Not just for the classic hoplite with his solid cast armor, but right on up through to the end of the middle ages. Some knight who was dug up from under a church in England a few years back was reconstructed as a bullnecked Rugby gorilla, using modern forensic methods.


----------



## Machiavelli

always_alone said:


> Talk about your false dichotomies...
> 
> 
> The Golden ratio is phi 1.618, and is said to reflect beauty in all of nature, art, and architecture, little of which has anything to do with limbic system sexual attraction
> 
> David does obey that ratio too, as measured from his navel to the joints in his fingers.
> 
> Now *that's* sexy.:rofl::rofl:
> 
> As for his shoulder-waist? Quite narrow. Not as much as da Vinci, but certainly narrower than Michaelangelo's typical style. And a *lot* narrower than the muscle-bound steroid guys.


Steve Reeves, AAU Mr. America 1947, the guy who you find repulsive, had a waist measurement of 29" in that contest.

ETA: the modern bodybuilder 42" waist and its thick "Y" torso shape and even bulging gut (slin-gut) is a product of insulin abuse. This wasn't around prior to 1980 and is not even possible in the pre-steroid era.


----------



## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> To add,
> Greeks men and boys were also very athletic. If my memory serves me right they started the Olympics Games?


And the gymnasium, also.


----------



## Holland

Machiavelli said:


> Just out of curiosity, which of these two do you like best?


The previous pic of the body builder was far more extreme than these so this isn't such a clever question. But to answer it I would go for David as fat men are a major turn off for me personally, as are over ripped men.


----------



## over20

Holland said:


> The previous pic of the body builder was far more extreme than these so this isn't such a clever question. But to answer it I would go for David as fat men are a major turn off for me personally, as are over ripped men.


who has the longest tongue!


----------



## Machiavelli

Holland said:


> The previous pic of the body builder was far more extreme than these so this isn't such a clever question. But to answer it I would go for David as fat men are a major turn off for me personally, as are over ripped men.


Reeves was posted because he had the greatest known FFMI attainable without drugs. I posted him to make a point about leanness vs. fat.

David is about 9-10% BF. He also is the poster boy for the classic golden SWR. Here are two other guys who demonstrate the golden ratio (left) and the almost golden ratio (right) with 8-9% BF. Preference?


----------



## Holland

Left is closer to my personal preference but I prefer a thicker waist. Broad shoulders are a turn on, thin waist a turn off. Overly muscular is a major turn off. Each to their own but Mr H has the perfect body type for me, very tall, broad shoulders, long legs that are muscular but not bulky (think cyclists legs) and a waist that is straight, not a V shape.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I like lean skinny guys best but I'll take Ryan Reynolds if you're gonna twist my arm 


I love his hair,eyes,and smile.Plus he's fun to watch bc he's so animated and expressive.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Machiavelli said:


> Reeves was posted because he had the greatest known FFMI attainable without drugs. I posted him to make a point about leanness vs. fat.
> 
> David is about 9-10% BF. He also is the poster boy for the classic golden SWR. Here are two other guys who demonstrate the golden ratio (left) and the almost golden ratio (right) with 8-9% BF. Preference?


Guy on left. It has nothing to do with his shape but the expression in his eyes. Eyes are all of it!


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would you have done if your wife did not want to be taken? Would you have kicked her out of the house right then?
> 
> I love the way you are standing up for yourself. I am just wondering what will happen the first time you make a decision as the "Captain" that your wife doesn't like. People do not automatically change from screeching harridans to docile sweethearts over night.
> 
> I am happy for both of you. However, I am concerned that your wife will only act the part to keep your wallet open.
> 
> Be careful my friend. I wish you all the best.


If she had not wanted to be "taken"...hmmm.....Well, there would have been a mention of that departure date....not because I wanted to force sex on her (I do not), but because I feel she needs to put WAY more into this than she ever has before.

I have no expectation that things will change overnight or overmonth...LOL. What I DO expect is that I will now have a hard line....and a completely public expectation that if that isn't met, there is a solid date after which she lives else where. A definitive answer to, "Oh yeah? Or WHAT?"


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

NobodySpecial said:


> Guy on left. It has nothing to do with his shape but the expression in his eyes. Eyes are all of it!


Squinting because of sunlight? :scratchhead:


----------



## Cynthia

Edit:
Disregard, I think I got mixed up about where I was. I apologize for the interruption.


----------



## ocotillo

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Squinting because of sunlight? :scratchhead:


Interesting question. My wife was in love with Hugh Jackman long before he was in that kind of shape. Ryan Reynolds would be written off as a, "Little boy."


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Hi folks,

Just wanted to drop a note in to thank you ALL for contributing to this thread. I hope, as I've noted before, that you all don't mind my using this thread to post a continuing "Saga" as things develop. I've distilled all of the information I've received here and elsewhere into some plans for improving MYSELF, and am concentrating on accountability to myself, disconnecting my emotional hose and detaching from outcome. 

My main thrust is that I am a very valuable and worthwhile person, despite the fact that I am often told otherwise. My biggest hurdle is getting over my own distrust of my judgement; I'm sure this has to do with various issues growing up, as well as being told day-in and day-out that my reactions and thoughts regarding each situation as it arises are not "normal" or correct. I often have trouble believing that what I believe is just and right IS just and right, and not just in my "warped" perception.

Trusting myself is likely one of the most important hurdles to clear, but arguably the most difficult.


----------



## MEM2020

Journey,
Record yourself at home for a couple weeks. 
- Listen to the conflicts by yourself 
- And with your therapist

Don't use them to playback to your GF so you can win.

Use them to improve. And/or as an input to whether you remain together. 





TheJourneyBegins said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Just wanted to drop a note in to thank you ALL for contributing to this
> 
> 
> 
> thread. I hope, as I've noted before, that you all don't mind my using this thread to post a continuing "Saga" as things develop. I've distilled all of the information I've received here and elsewhere into some plans for improving MYSELF, and am concentrating on accountability to myself, disconnecting my emotional hose and detaching from outcome.
> 
> My main thrust is that I am a very valuable and worthwhile person, despite the fact that I am often told otherwise. My biggest hurdle is getting over my own distrust of my judgement; I'm sure this has to do with various issues growing up, as well as being told day-in and day-out that my reactions and thoughts regarding each situation as it arises are not "normal" or correct. I often have trouble believing that what I believe is just and right IS just and right, and not just in my "warped" perception.
> 
> Trusting myself is likely one of the most important hurdles to clear, but arguably the most difficult.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

MEM11363 said:


> Journey,
> Record yourself at home for a couple weeks.
> - Listen to the conflicts by yourself
> - And with your therapist
> 
> Don't use them to playback to your GF so you can win.
> 
> Use them to improve. And/or as an input to whether you remain together.


Very good thoughts and suggestion.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

ocotillo said:


> Interesting question. My wife was in love with Hugh Jackman long before he was in that kind of shape. Ryan Reynolds would be written off as a, "Little boy."


From what I've compiled, the drawn eyed, heavier brow face seems to win out more often than the big open eyed face. Maybe the former looks more serious and manly and the latter looks more boyish and goofy? That's my theory.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Interesting thing just happened. She called me basically to tell me how stressed she was about her afternoon today (she works 1/2 day on friday). Mostly, it's driving kids around, picking up kids friends, etc. I offered help with what I could, but she turned it down (except I'll pick some stuff up for dinner at the store on my way home from work). Anyway, I finished the convo by saying how good she looked in her boots this morning, and how I was likely to jump her later on tonight when things calmed down. 

I guess I was thinking that I would love that if I had a busy afternoon; blow off steam playing with my wife! She, on the other hand, when I said that, became angry, saying..."Here I am, listing stuff that's making me tense, and you talk about adding ONE MORE THING to my schedule. Oh, sure, let me strip for you right now...I'm SOOOO excited." I told her that her current reaction was one of the problems that MUST be fixed if we are going to continue, and that sort of spontaneous flirting leading to sex is important to me. She says, "Oh, it's always important to you...you always think that I need to make you a priority when I have a ton of things to do."

I pretty much said, well, this is not going to work if you don't. And then I was silent.

She told me that we'd work on it by from now on by me never bringing up sex or fooling around when she's got so much on her plate that she's stressed. Then we won't have a problem. I was doing it playfully because that's my nature. If I had waited and surprised her later on tonight, she'd have said, "I'm tired....why didn't you give me some warning earlier that you wanted sex?"

Oh well.


----------



## COGypsy

So what you're saying is that her willingness to reform and work on things has lasted 12 hours?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

wow.she really is a lost cause,isn't she. smh.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

LOL. And this after I surprised the family (actually, my son and I did). Our main TV went out a while ago. I'm a real movie, documentary and science program buff, and I was sad. But after a long time of searching, I found the perfect system to replace it with. So yesterday, unbeownst to them, I installed a 5.1 surround system in our family room connected to a brand new Samsung 60" LED tv.

All the kids were thrilled of course, her, not so much. The money wasn't the issue, although her only comment was "Well, I'm glad you got yourself something you liked. It's a TV, you know that I'm not into TVs that much, like lots of people are into cars and I'm not. Later in the evening, she was telling me that it was too big to watch, and the sound bothered her (Our seating distance is about 12-14 feet from the TV so it's a pretty average size.). She said it will take a lot of getting used to.

I dunno. I like it. We have a TV again. My kids LOVE it. I LOVE it. Damn right I did it for me.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

What a little ray of sunshine.She likes nothing.She likes no one.It's like she's in a perpetual state of pms.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ScarletBegonias said:


> What a little ray of sunshine.She likes nothing.She likes no one.It's like she's in a perpetual state of pms.


Well, yes. And, in fact, she is CURRENTLY having PMS as her time of "unending amusement" is within 4 days.......


----------



## Deejo

Shut up and let her talk. Stop trying to fix things, and stop trying to make interactions about sex.

Basically ... you talk to much. Listen more. Do more or based on her response, less.

The tv? Thats a covert contract dude.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

:scratchhead:


----------



## Conrad

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Interesting thing just happened. She called me basically to tell me how stressed she was about her afternoon today (she works 1/2 day on friday). Mostly, it's driving kids around, picking up kids friends, etc. I offered help with what I could, but she turned it down (except I'll pick some stuff up for dinner at the store on my way home from work). Anyway, I finished the convo by saying how good she looked in her boots this morning, and how I was likely to jump her later on tonight when things calmed down.
> 
> I guess I was thinking that I would love that if I had a busy afternoon; blow off steam playing with my wife! She, on the other hand, when I said that, became angry, saying..."Here I am, listing stuff that's making me tense, and you talk about adding ONE MORE THING to my schedule. Oh, sure, let me strip for you right now...I'm SOOOO excited." I told her that her current reaction was one of the problems that MUST be fixed if we are going to continue, and that sort of spontaneous flirting leading to sex is important to me. She says, "Oh, it's always important to you...you always think that I need to make you a priority when I have a ton of things to do."
> 
> I pretty much said, well, this is not going to work if you don't. And then I was silent.
> 
> She told me that we'd work on it by from now on by me never bringing up sex or fooling around when she's got so much on her plate that she's stressed. Then we won't have a problem. I was doing it playfully because that's my nature. If I had waited and surprised her later on tonight, she'd have said, "I'm tired....why didn't you give me some warning earlier that you wanted sex?"
> 
> Oh well.


Completely counterproductive


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Deejo said:


> Shut up and let her talk. Stop trying to fix things, and stop trying to make interactions about sex.
> 
> Basically ... you talk to much. Listen more. Do more or based on her response, less.
> 
> The tv? Thats a covert contract dude.


I agree with everything you wrote there. She calls to whine about her day and he brings up sex. Again. Ugg.

Then, going out and buying surround sound and a 60" TV after one little breakthrough that will probably turn out to be temporary? Not good. I almost think that was your way of reemphasizing the money you have and how much she and her kids need you. You already have a lopsided relationship (age, finances) and here you are driving that point home just moments after you scared her into the bedroom (because she thinks she and her kids will be homeless). I'm not saying you should feel guilty for expecting good treatment, I'm just saying that the way you're going about getting it is wrong.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Deejo said:


> Shut up and let her talk. Stop trying to fix things, and stop trying to make interactions about sex.
> 
> Basically ... you talk to much. Listen more. Do more or based on her response, less.
> 
> The tv? Thats a covert contract dude.


I do talk to much.

However, the TV was not a covert contract. I can tell you this for certain, because when the other TV was dying, her feeling was that we didn't even NEED a TV in that room. I'm a techie. I've never even HAD a High-Def tv. It easily fit within my budget for discretionary spending. I've wanted one for years. It was a TOTALLY selfish purchase. I haven't done anything like that for myself in recorded memory.

If anything, the TV was the antithesis of a covert contract....it probably pissed her off at me....LOL

Oh, and the purchase was scheduled WELL before any talk of her leaving occurred. I'd been researching the TV for months (it's fun).


----------



## Conrad

TheJourneyBegins said:


> I do talk to much.
> 
> However, the TV was not a covert contract. I can tell you this for certain, because when the other TV was dying, her feeling was that we didn't even NEED a TV in that room. I'm a techie. I've never even HAD a High-Def tv. It easily fit within my budget for discretionary spending. I've wanted one for years. It was a TOTALLY selfish purchase. I haven't done anything like that for myself in recorded memory.
> 
> If anything, the TV was the antithesis of a covert contract....it probably pissed her off at me....LOL


I read a little deeper.

The kids LOVED it....

So, you earn her love, right... by the kids admiring you.

That's not where security comes from.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Conrad said:


> I read a little deeper.
> 
> The kids LOVED it....
> 
> So, you earn her love, right... by the kids admiring you.
> 
> That's not where security comes from.


It's much harder for her to move back to the trailer park when the kids are so happy, because then she's taking from them too.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Well,Journey,I'll bow out here and let the menfolk school you on what women want.


----------



## Machiavelli

TheJourneyBegins said:


> She, on the other hand, when I said that, became angry, saying..."Here I am, listing stuff that's making me tense, and you talk about adding ONE MORE THING to my schedule. Oh, sure, let me strip for you right now...I'm SOOOO excited."


Translation:"I can fake it from time to time, but you're straining the limits of my acting ability and my willingness to have sex with a guy I'm not sexually attracted to."

Don't waste anymore effort on this financial relationship.

I do like your improvement plan on the previous post.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Machiavelli said:


> Translation:"I can fake it from time to time, but you're straining the limits of my acting ability and my willingness to have sex with a guy I'm not sexually attracted to."
> 
> Don't waste anymore effort on this financial relationship.
> 
> I do like your improvement plan on the previous post.


Mark the occasion.I actually agree with this.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

WorkingOnMe said:


> Then, going out and buying surround sound and a 60" TV after one little breakthrough that will probably turn out to be temporary? Not good. I almost think that was your way of reemphasizing the money you have and how much she and her kids need you. You already have a lopsided relationship (age, finances) and here you are driving that point home just moments after you scared her into the bedroom (because she thinks she and her kids will be homeless). I'm not saying you should feel guilty for expecting good treatment, I'm just saying that the way you're going about getting it is wrong.


She's welcome to change the financial lopsidedness if she likes. If she feels guilty about not contributing, maybe she should contribute. She's had new job opportunities, which would have paid MUCH more than she makes, which she turned down because she would have to work 40 hrs/week (she currently has Friday afternoon off) and she wouldn't be able to spend Friday afternoons with her kids. I'm not too worried about spending money as I see fit. Not to rub her nose in it either. I just don't see restricting that because it might hurt her feelings......


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Conrad said:


> I read a little deeper.
> 
> The kids LOVED it....
> 
> So, you earn her love, right... by the kids admiring you.
> 
> That's not where security comes from.


LOL. I meant MY kids. I really don't care if her kids liked it or not. I'm not trying to buy their love or hers.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's much harder for her to move back to the trailer park when the kids are so happy, because then she's taking from them too.


This TRULY never occurred to me. And I just don't think that way.


----------



## Cynthia

TheJourneyBegins said:


> This TRULY never occurred to me. And I just don't think that way.


Likely she does. Her main concern is taking care of her children. You have given her what she needs to do that, but now you are asking for something in return and she doesn't like it. She probably feels like the rules have changed and they have changed, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Your needs are as important as her needs. I don't agree with all of your rules, but if that's it for you, then she either does it or not. It's up to her.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

I don't get the notion of the TV being a covert contract.

If I want a TV, I'm buying a TV unless I have a really good objective reason not to like money constraints. :scratchhead:

The more I read this thread, the more I'm forced to conclude that this woman... simply. isn't. into. you.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't get the notion of the TV being a covert contract.
> 
> If I want a TV, I'm buying a TV unless I have a really good objective reason not to like money constraints. :scratchhead:
> 
> The more I read this thread, the more I'm forced to conclude that this woman... simply. isn't. into. you.


:iagree:


----------



## Conrad

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's much harder for her to move back to the trailer park when the kids are so happy, because then she's taking from them too.


That's called manipulation.

Trust me, she sees it.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Conrad said:


> That's called manipulation.
> 
> Trust me, she sees it.


Sorry. Don't buy it. Again, I WANTED THE DAMN TV. I don't care if she stays or goes at this point. I'm sick of the entire thing. I didn't consider her AT ALL in the purchase. I thought she might like watching it, sure, but I'd have purchased it even if she threatened to move out if I did. 

In this case, lets say I want a TV, and don't have one already. Or anything else, for that matter, that her kids might find desirable. Or she might. Am I not supposed to buy it because it might make the house too hard to leave? That's penalizing me for having a lifestyle that her kids (or she) would like to have a piece of. That just doesn't make sense, and in that case I'm being manipulated in that I shouldn't do something for me in my own house for fear of making it harder for her to leave.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's much harder for her to move back to the trailer park when the kids are so happy, because then she's taking from them too.


Interesting take. I read it a completely different way.

A big purchase like that is consistent with an investment in the relationship. By this action, he is saying that they (him, her and the kids) will be there a long time, regardless of what happens going forward. She interprets that to mean the little she gave was enough and she can continue her behavior.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Tall Average Guy said:


> Interesting take. I read it a completely different way.
> 
> A big purchase like that is consistent with an investment in the relationship. By this action, he is saying that they (him, her and the kids) will be there a long time, regardless of what happens going forward. She interprets that to mean the little she gave was enough and she can continue her behavior.


Well, no I'm not. I wasn't saying anything. I'm sorry if that's what she thinks it means. I got a new car recently too. My old one died. I'm hoping that she doesn't see that as cement in our relationship. 

I have to say I'm a bit frustrated here. Under NO circumstances did I feel that this purchase (which she was against at least the idea of but had no say because she has no money to contribute to it) had anything to do with her staying. It doesn't seem to make the home more secure for her to me. But if that's how she's interpreting it, then I'd better be VERY careful of anything I do to improve the home for myself and my KIDS, lest she think what she's doing (if, in fact, she responds to my eviction threat) is enough. Certainly I don't think what she's done so far is enough, and I do intend to remind her of that, and of the current date's proximity to the D-Day.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Well, no I'm not. I wasn't saying anything. I'm sorry if that's what she thinks it means. I got a new car recently too. My old one died. I'm hoping that she doesn't see that as cement in our relationship.
> 
> I have to say I'm a bit frustrated here. Under NO circumstances did I feel that this purchase (which she was against at least the idea of but had no say because she has no money to contribute to it) had anything to do with her staying. It doesn't seem to make the home more secure for her to me. But if that's how she's interpreting it, then I'd better be VERY careful of anything I do to improve the home for myself and my KIDS, lest she think what she's doing (if, in fact, she responds to my eviction threat) is enough. Certainly I don't think what she's done so far is enough, and I do intend to remind her of that, and of the current date's proximity to the D-Day.


Not sure it matters what you meant to communicate if she received a different message. 

My point is that communication happens on a number of levels. Actions, not just words, matter a lot. SO when you do something that could be interpreted as saying everything is fine again, she might decide (even if subconsuously) that she can revert to her old behavior.

Because of that, you need to be careful and think through what you say and do. I am not saying that replacing the TV was a bad idea. I am saying that replacing it with a very expensive version with all the bells and whistles, at a time when you each might be needing separate accounts, *could* send her the message that you actually won't be needing separate accounts.

I know you say it means nothing that you did this. I am saying that just because you think that does not mean that she thinks that (or believes you when you say you think that). So be careful.


----------



## Cynthia

Tall Average Guy said:


> Interesting take. I read it a completely different way.
> 
> A big purchase like that is consistent with an investment in the relationship. By this action, he is saying that they (him, her and the kids) will be there a long time, regardless of what happens going forward. She interprets that to mean the little she gave was enough and she can continue her behavior.


I don't think replacing something old and dying with something new is an investment in the relationship. Replacing what is broken in your own house does not mean investment in relationship. It means investment in making him happy. He didn't even consult with her on the t.v. at all.
She could take this to mean all sorts of things, but the bottom line is that he wanted a new t.v. for himself and he bought it. Surprising the family with it is fun. He was sharing his enjoyment with the family. She can take that any way she pleases, but the bottom line is that he wasn't going to hold off on buying a t.v. to see how the relationship was going to turn out.
In other words, who care what she thinks about him buying the t.v.? It's his house, he has the money and he wants a t.v., so he should buy it.
Some of this is just over-thinking.


----------



## Cynthia

Did I just read that you have joint accounts? I must have missed that somewhere. The relationship seems to be a live in situation, not a husband and wife situation. I assumed you had separate accounts.


----------



## Catherine602

Is your gf going after her ex for child support? If not, why? 

This relationship is over. It was probably never a relationship because you were the only one who was in it. 

Read up on the Stockholm syndrome. I think you've got the Patty Hurst blues. Your life is so toxic right now that you identify with your abuser. 

The build up to this situation was so slow and relentless that before you realized it, you were cooked. You need to be rescued and deprogrammed. 

Forget ultimatums and books. Don't worry about being responsible for her illnesses, or where she and her children will live. 

Forget the symbolism of a HD TV and surround sound. Who cares what she thinks it means. You know it's not for her, right?. 

If she had no place to go, she would be more cautious about what she said and did. She probably has the next man lined up in her sights but she hasn't closed the deal yet so she is stringing you along. 

About a month after she is gone, you will come out of your fog and thank all the people on TAM who helped you escape. Good luck.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not sure it matters what you meant to communicate if she received a different message.
> 
> My point is that communication happens on a number of levels. Actions, not just words, matter a lot. SO when you do something that could be interpreted as saying everything is fine again, she might decide (even if subconsuously) that she can revert to her old behavior.
> 
> Because of that, you need to be careful and think through what you say and do. I am not saying that replacing the TV was a bad idea. I am saying that replacing it with a very expensive version with all the bells and whistles, at a time when you each might be needing separate accounts, *could* send her the message that you actually won't be needing separate accounts.
> 
> I know you say it means nothing that you did this. I am saying that just because you think that does not mean that she thinks that (or believes you when you say you think that). So be careful.


I appreciate that, and you're probably right. On the issue of separate accounts; we DO have separate accounts. Always have. She contributes NO money whatsoever to day to day life. She used to contribute some (not much), but when her child support was reduced because her ex is out of work, she stopped. I pay for everything: Mortgatge, utilities, her cell phone, her kids cell phone, my kids and my phone, internet, garbage pickup, water, Cable TV, gas for her car, gas for my car etc. Our finances are MY finances. Her account (what there is of it) is used to pay her car payment and her kids expenses (that aren't food).

So, we won't have to separate anything. If she moves out, she loses access to my finances.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Catherine602 said:


> Is your gf going after her ex for child support? If not, why?
> 
> This relationship is over. It was probably never a relationship because you were the only one who was in it.
> 
> Read up on the Stockholm syndrome. I think you've got the Patty Hurst blues. Your life is so toxic right now that you identify with your abuser.
> 
> The build up to this situation was so slow and relentless that before you realized it, you were cooked. You need to be rescued and deprogrammed.
> 
> Forget ultimatums and books. Don't worry about being responsible for her illnesses, or where she and her children will live.
> 
> Forget the symbolism of a HD TV and surround sound. Who cares what she thinks it means. You know it's not for her, right?.
> 
> If she had no place to go, she would be more cautious about what she said and did. She probably has the next man lined up in her sights but she hasn't closed the deal yet so she is stringing you along.
> 
> About a month after she is gone, you will come out of your fog and thank all the people on TAM who helped you escape. Good luck.


I'm thanking them now! :lol::iagree:


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Catherine602 said:


> Is your gf going after her ex for child support? If not, why?
> 
> This relationship is over. It was probably never a relationship because you were the only one who was in it.
> 
> Read up on the Stockholm syndrome. I think you've got the Patty Hurst blues. Your life is so toxic right now that you identify with your abuser.
> 
> The build up to this situation was so slow and relentless that before you realized it, you were cooked. You need to be rescued and deprogrammed.
> 
> Forget ultimatums and books. Don't worry about being responsible for her illnesses, or where she and her children will live.
> 
> Forget the symbolism of a HD TV and surround sound. Who cares what she thinks it means. You know it's not for her, right?.
> 
> If she had no place to go, she would be more cautious about what she said and did. She probably has the next man lined up in her sights but she hasn't closed the deal yet so she is stringing you along.
> 
> About a month after she is gone, you will come out of your fog and thank all the people on TAM who helped you escape. Good luck.


Oh, and on the issue of going after her ex? He is behind $3000. I'm guessing she's not hitting him hard (or at all) because I'm here to pay for everything. She was getting $500/mo from him before. Now almost nada. If she doesn't have that to live on elsewhere, her current salary will be less than ideal.........


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

ScarletBegonias said:


> wow.she really is a lost cause,isn't she. smh.


:iagree: Sadly, this doesn't surprise me one bit. I knew TJB's wife couldn't have changed so quickly. She was just paying lip service so that she could keep her lifestyle. 

I don't see why a wife in love wouldn't enjoy being aggressively flirted with. Yesterday, my husband called me while on his way home.* He asked me what I was wearing. *When I told him I was wearing a sweater and tights, he said "*Take off your sweater. Take off your tights. Lie in bed naked and wait for me.*" When I giggled and asked my husband what he was planning, he responded: "*I will show you when I get home*.

Like a boss! :smthumbup:


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> :iagree: Sadly, this doesn't surprise me one bit. I knew TJB's wife couldn't have changed so quickly. She was just paying lip service so that she could keep her lifestyle.
> 
> I don't see why a wife in love wouldn't enjoy being aggressively flirted with. Yesterday, my husband called me while on his way home.* He asked me what I was wearing. *When I told him I was wearing a sweater and tights, he said "*Take off your sweater. Take off your tights. Lie in bed naked and wait for me.*" :smthumbup: When I giggled and asked my husband what he was planning, he responded: "*I will show you when I get home*.
> 
> Like a boss! :smthumbup:


That's EXACTLY the sort of thing I LOVE to do with a woman I'm in a relationship with. I'm sort of relentless....

I TOTALLY love that sort of thing, and I do have a vivid and very active imagination. Anyone who enjoyed receiving that sort of thing would never be bored with me.....

Too bad it's just adding work to my SO's day to even HEAR it.....


----------



## Cynthia

It sounds like she has her own little world going on where she uses whatever resources are available to her and unfortunately you are just another resource.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

CynthiaDe said:


> I don't think replacing something old and dying with something new is an investment in the relationship. Replacing what is broken in your own house does not mean investment in relationship. It means investment in making him happy. He didn't even consult with her on the t.v. at all.
> 
> She could take this to mean all sorts of things, but the bottom line is that he wanted a new t.v. for himself and he bought it. Surprising the family with it is fun. He was sharing his enjoyment with the family. She can take that any way she pleases, but the bottom line is that he wasn't going to hold off on buying a t.v. to see how the relationship was going to turn out.
> In other words, who care what she thinks about him buying the t.v.? It's his house, he has the money and he wants a t.v., so he should buy it.
> Some of this is just over-thinking.


Well, he did not buy just a television. In his own words, he bought:



> So yesterday, unbeownst to them, I installed a 5.1 surround system in our family room connected to a brand new Samsung 60" LED tv.


To me, that sounds like a major investment. Personally, when things are up in the air (like when separation and divorce are being discussed), I don't make large purchases like this, because I don't know how scarce money will be. When I see a purchase like this, I think that things are going fine.

Sure, he may have not intended anything by it. But that does not matter if she did indeed read something into it. So I think he needs to think about this stuff.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

TheJourneyBegins said:


> That's EXACTLY the sort of thing I LOVE to do with a woman I'm in a relationship with. I'm sort of relentless....
> 
> I TOTALLY love that sort of thing, and I do have a vivid and very active imagination. Anyone who enjoyed receiving that sort of thing would never be bored with me.....
> 
> Too bad it's just adding work to my SO's day to even HEAR it.....


Normally, my back goes up when someone I love orders me to do something. However, I knew that my husband was not making an attempt to control me. It was a sexy kind of command. No need to get indignant. 

Your wife does not deserve you at all. She will never change.


----------



## Cynthia

My perspective comes from my husband and myself. We have surround sound, so that seems like a natural thing to install with a big new t.v. My husband wants all sorts of stuff for his t.v. that I could care less about. We have a small, narrow space for our t.v. He wanted a 60" t.v. and thought that was hopefully big enough. I wanted a 40". We compromised on a 50" and it is plenty big. He even admitted a 60"would have been too big. So I guess I'm seeing this whole t.v. thing from having a husband who would do that and think nothing of it. I wouldn't consider it an investment in anything other than his happiness and wanting to see the football or hockey games in Hi Def and surround sound. Now if my husband would have gone out and purchased a 60" t.v. and a new surround sound system, I would assume he wanted a divorce. (just kidding, but I would be upset and would not see it as an investment in our relationship or family)


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Tall Average Guy said:


> Well, he did not buy just a television. In his own words, he bought:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, that sounds like a major investment. Personally, when things are up in the air (like when separation and divorce are being discussed), I don't make large purchases like this, because I don't know how scarce money will be. When I see a purchase like this, I think that things are going fine.
> 
> Sure, he may have not intended anything by it. But that does not matter if she did indeed read something into it. So I think he needs to think about this stuff.


Herein lies the misunderstanding, I think. Our finances are not combined. I pay for everything because, as she puts it, "You'd have to pay for that stuff whether we moved in or not." She used to contribute to food because even SHE couldn't make me swallow that I'd be paying for 7 people's food whether she lived here or not....We are not (as others have correctly noted) "married". We are, for all intents and purposes, just living together after having said our own marriage vows. We do not live in a state that recognizes cohabitants as having any rights to the other's finances or property. 

Finances will not be up in the air if we split. Money will be SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER if she leaves, because I won't have to pay for 7 people's food (only 4 at most), her gas, her cell phone, her kid's cell phone, anything she buys for the house, her fitness membership, the electricity her kids use in their 500sq foot bedroom, their computer's electricity, their dog and it's food, her clothing, etc. I make EASILY 5 times her salary. She's not entitled to any of it by law.

Sucks to be her.


----------



## Cynthia

And that is the bottom line ^^^^^
You are not buying something for you both. This is your house and your stuff. There will be no splitting of the household goods. She cannot stay in your house. She knows this. Personally I think it was a good move to purchase the t.v. and surround sound system. In my opinion, it shows that you don't care what she thinks about what you buy and that you are going to spend your money how you see fit.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Tall Average Guy said:


> Interesting take. I read it a completely different way.
> 
> A big purchase like that is consistent with an investment in the relationship. By this action, he is saying that they (him, her and the kids) will be there a long time, regardless of what happens going forward. She interprets that to mean the little she gave was enough and she can continue her behavior.


I see what you're thinking, but it just seems like a bit of a stretch. We're talking home electronics that cater to his gadget geekdom. If it were an "US" thing I could see it. I interpret this as a "ME" thing. I'm not sure that a woman would perceive a gadget guy buying his gadgets as a relationship builder.

Its like me being sick of a relationship and buying a motorcycle. Woe to the woman who thinks that's an investment in the relationship.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Woe to the woman who thinks that's an investment in the relationship.


Exactly my point :smthumbup:

It was that TV or the A36 Bonanza I was looking at.....but, well, hangars are scarce.....that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

CynthiaDe said:


> And that is the bottom line ^^^^^
> You are not buying something for you both. This is your house and your stuff. There will be no splitting of the household goods. She cannot stay in your house. She knows this. Personally I think it was a good move to purchase the t.v. and surround sound system. In my opinion, it shows that you don't care what she thinks about what you buy and that you are going to spend your money how you see fit.


Me likes this.....and I do agree.


----------



## always_alone

CynthiaDe said:


> Some of this is just over-thinking.


I agree. Too much game-playing, machinations, and assuming what women think.

Better, IMHO, to keep it very simple. Know what your own boundaries are, which of the other's boundaries you are willing to accept, and just stop worrying about what she might think or want. If she needs to, she can communicate this clearly enough --she's already proven that --and he can then decide if he agrees or disagrees. 

Mind-reading or anticipating every reaction is part of the problem, not the solution.


----------



## just got it 55

Just my .02

The Guy needed and wanted a TV.He bought the best he could afford

End of story the rest is just over thinking it

55


----------



## Catherine602

TAG 
They're not married. Looking at the quality and mutuality of the arrangement, they don't really live together. She's using his place for a crash pad. 

You mentioned that you turn down the bed for her and get her breathing apparatus ready, etc. 

I can't get this picture out of my head - a bare chest cabana boy in satin white pants, serving up pink drinks to a wealthy dowager sitting in a lounge chair. 

You said she got a 40 hr a week job and turned it down for less time and money to be with her kids. Did she discuss that with you? 

Using your place is one thing but siphoning off your resources is another thing all together. 

You'd better get her out of there before the summer or you'll come home to her kids playing volley ball in the new pool she installed in your back yard. 

I'm not having a laugh at your expense because you are in an emotionally abusive situation. But it is a tragic- comedy. The tragedy is that you are catering to a surly squatter; the comedic part is that you are catering to a surly squatter.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: The Married Man Sex Life Primer and the MAP in Marriage*



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't get the notion of the TV being a covert contract.
> 
> If I want a TV, I'm buying a TV unless I have a really good objective reason not to like money constraints. :scratchhead:
> 
> The more I read this thread, the more I'm forced to conclude that this woman... simply. isn't. into. you.


I based that call on his statement of being surprised by her reaction, 
"LOL, and this after I surprised the family with a new tv."

It read like an expectation of appreciation, or consideration. 

CC's are something that many NG's struggle with. 

There are a lot of ladies here talking about 'men telling us what women want'.

And some folks may be focused on that. I'm not. It isnt even part of the equation. 

What she wants is immaterial. She isn't the focus. He is.

His behavior. His choices, and by his own admission, the KIND of woman he consistently chooses.

This isn't about him deciding how to land, manipulate, or manage a girlfriend or wife. It's about him becoming the kind of man that doesn't undermine or sell himself short in ANY relationship.


----------



## happy as a clam

So Journey... where do things stand right now?

I read through your "contract" with her. Sounded like a good plan, but it appears that she only lasted a few hours before she was right back to her old tricks.

Have you thrown down the gauntlet yet? Or is she still trying to break the rules of the brand new agreement?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> What she wants is immaterial. She isn't the focus. He is.
> 
> His behavior. His choices, *and by his own admission, the KIND of woman he consistently chooses.*
> 
> This isn't about him deciding how to land, manipulate, or manage a girlfriend or wife. It's about him becoming the kind of man that doesn't undermine or sell himself short in ANY relationship.


:iagree:

Relationships take work , but definitely not the kind of work he's putting out for this woman.

Before he enters into another relationship he first needs to take some time off, get himself into proper shape, lift some " heavy weights " and build some muscle. 

Not physically but psychologically..


----------



## Catherine602

It's news to me that women need to decode messages from a man's buying habits. I'm learning things about myself that escaped me even though I live in my own skin. 

Retail communication. My husband brought an ugly old corvette 3 years ago. I'm not in the state of woe yet, he's not finished making the car drivable. He did inquire about renting a flat-bed truck recently.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Catherine! Old corvettes are not ugly!


----------



## Catherine602

Working - you would think it was ugly if you saw it. It had rust holes, no bumpers and it didn't even work. I never once laughed, it was hard though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Catherine602 said:


> TAG
> They're not married. Looking at the quality and mutuality of the arrangement, they don't really live together. She's using his place for a crash pad.
> 
> You mentioned that you turn down the bed for her and get her breathing apparatus ready, etc.
> 
> I can't get this picture out of my head - a bare chest cabana boy in satin white pants, serving up pink drinks to a wealthy dowager sitting in a lounge chair.
> 
> You said she got a 40 hr a week job and turned it down for less time and money to be with her kids. Did she discuss that with you?
> 
> Using your place is one thing but siphoning off your resources is another thing all together.
> 
> You'd better get her out of there before the summer or you'll come home to her kids playing volley ball in the new pool she installed in your back yard.
> 
> I'm not having a laugh at your expense because you are in an emotionally abusive situation. But it is a tragic- comedy. The tragedy is that you are catering to a surly squatter; the comedic part is that you are catering to a surly squatter.


She discussed it a little. Downplayed the money (we really wouldn't see more money after the extra gas (horsehockey).

Interestingly, I do feel like a cabana boy when I'm doing that. She's been living here for almost 4 years, so I'm not sure that she'll be putting in a new pool anytime soon.....

I realize it's a tragic comedy. I hit her today with a list to keep with her of the things I consider to be deal breakers in our contract. She said she needed to process them. LOL. I told her go ahead, and I'll clarify anything you want, but at the end of the day, it's that way or the highway.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Deejo said:


> What she wants is immaterial. She isn't the focus. He is.
> 
> His behavior. His choices, and by his own admission, the KIND of woman he consistently chooses.
> 
> This isn't about him deciding how to land, manipulate, or manage a girlfriend or wife. It's about him becoming the kind of man that doesn't undermine or sell himself short in ANY relationship.


Amen


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

just got it 55 said:


> Just my .02
> 
> The Guy needed and wanted a TV.He bought the best he could afford
> 
> End of story the rest is just over thinking it
> 
> 55


My TV is fantastic. Her kids say I use it too much. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

:rofl:


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

happy as a clam said:


> So Journey... where do things stand right now?
> 
> I read through your "contract" with her. Sounded like a good plan, but it appears that she only lasted a few hours before she was right back to her old tricks.
> 
> Have you thrown down the gauntlet yet? Or is she still trying to break the rules of the brand new agreement?


Gave her a brief bullet point statement to "keep with her to refer to" this morning. She'd seen it all before. She said, "I'll have to let this perk and process this. I have some concerns about how a couple of these are going to work." I said, well, I'll happily clarify...but at the end of the day, those are deal-breakers."

She want to drive her kids around to the mall, and to friends, and to the y, etc....we'll see what she says when she gets home. I'm good with whatever happens.


----------



## Catherine602

What are your deal breakers? I don't think you both are as willing to break up as you seem. Please be sure that you can carry through and don't beg her not to leave. 

It will be hard but she is not treating you with the respect you deserve. You seem to feel that she is special. 

While I don't think women are interchangeable, I do think that you can find someone who will see your value. She has loss sight of that. I don't know if it will come back while you are together. 

I am going to guess that if she does move out, in time she will realize how foolish she has been and ask to see you. If you want, you can date again but maintain separate households.


----------



## Machiavelli

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Gave her a brief bullet point statement to "keep with her to refer to" this morning. She'd seen it all before. She said, "I'll have to let this perk and process this. I have some concerns about how a couple of these are going to work." I said, well, I'll happily clarify...but at the end of the day, those are deal-breakers."
> 
> She want to drive her kids around to the mall, and to friends, and to the y, etc....we'll see what she says when she gets home. I'm good with whatever happens.


Bullet points?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Gave her a brief bullet point statement to "keep with her to refer to" this morning. She'd seen it all before. She said, "I'll have to let this perk and process this. I have some concerns about how a couple of these are going to work." I said, well, I'll happily clarify...but at the end of the day, those are deal-breakers."
> 
> She want to drive her kids around to the mall, and to friends, and to the y, etc....we'll see what she says when she gets home. I'm good with whatever happens.


*Followup:* She accepted the bullet points, but we had to go over them meticulously, and determine what everything really meant. Here is the "memory jog card":

_1. *Brief*, no-timer weekly meetings between us to review concerns. 

2. Penetrative sex minimum 3 times on weekdays and 2x on weekends. More is welcome. Rebukes OF ANY KIND for initiating sex not acceptable for either party. Non-penetrative sex 
can be substituted in extenuating circumstances. My wiring makes this a deal-breaker. 

3. One kid-free date night/week. Activity to be chosen by me, or after discussion. 

4. Full agreement that decisions, while there is room for open and free discussion, will be finalized by me and supported (in private and in public) by you. NO arguing or bickering or treating each other poorly in front of the kids. Discuss slippage at weekly meeting. My role is Captain,yours is FO. _

Example of going over meticulously. She needed an "exact" definition of penetrative sex (does it count if you don't cum? If one of us has a problem during, and we don't finish, does it count, if we have extra this week, do we have to have the default number next week or does the extra count?, what if I want sex and you can't get hard, does it count?). That sort of stuff. She calls it my "mandate". I think she's offended by that, but I told her I'm not mandating, I'm telling her what the dealbreakers are for me and she's free to accept or reject them as she wishes. Rejecting them will lead to breakup, and then that will necessitate her moving out.

This weekend, she asked me if I would consent to her getting a weekend job to earn more money.

I also asked her to pursue her ex for his child support arrears and to get him to begin to send her money again. Her issue with that is that if the FOC bench warrants him, he'll have to pay the jail first and not send her any money. I told her she needs to go after him anyway; even though she disagrees and says that she's paying for everything for her kids, I KNOW that she would have more discretionary income if he paid her the bucks he owes her (over $3K) and the amount FOC requires each month. She seemed receptive to my insistence.

Anyway, things seem to be progressing slowly....if she bolts all of a sudden, that's life. I doubt she will, though, as I think she realizes that even with the requirements I've set forth, she has a sweet deal.

And as all this goes on, I'm working on myself via NMMNG and counseling (my therapist thinks NMMNG is great, btw).


----------



## Deejo

Do you feel good about this?

I don't know, my takeaway based on her response is not that she is going to bolt, but now she knows she needs an exit strategy. 

Hope it works out for you.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Well, whether she knows she needs an exit strategy or not, I feel good about the fact that I'm not compromising myself or the kids anymore. 

And I have firmly stated my needs, and what the issues are. If that's too much for her to take, she leaves. Nothing I'm asking for should be particularly repugnant to someone who has or wants a real relationship with their husband. If these things offend her, then she doesn't want that relationship, and I don't want to be in a "relationship" where I'm not wanted.


----------



## jerry123

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Well, whether she knows she needs an exit strategy or not, I feel good about the fact that I'm not compromising myself or the kids anymore.
> 
> And I have firmly stated my needs, and what the issues are. If that's too much for her to take, she leaves. Nothing I'm asking for should be particularly repugnant to someone who has or wants a real relationship with their husband. If these things offend her, then she doesn't want that relationship, and I don't want to be in a "relationship" where I'm not wanted.



I agree with you...nobody wants to be in a relashionship if they are not wanted. Why waste each others time. 

As for ultimatums, if its gotten to that point then it's the last straw before the spouse checks out. It may work for some and it may not work for some. 

It really comes down to, if the spouse makes an effort to work on building a strong marriage where both parties are happy then that shows you they are trying. 

If they make no effort and have sex once a month at best then they are not trying. 

Your wife knows what she has to do, it's not a pen and paper that's going to change her...it's "her" that's going to have to change. 

I like your attitude though. That shows confidence and what you need right now is tons of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Well, whether she knows she needs an exit strategy or not, I feel good about the fact that I'm not compromising myself or the kids anymore.
> 
> And I have firmly stated my needs, and what the issues are. If that's too much for her to take, she leaves. Nothing I'm asking for should be particularly repugnant to someone who has or wants a real relationship with their husband. If these things offend her, then she doesn't want that relationship, and I don't want to be in a "relationship" where I'm not wanted.


Well then, damn ... remember, well done is always better than well said.

Hope she warms up, and you should not become 'warmer' than her in the interim. I'm presuming you read the 'temperature' thread by MEM. If not, it's linked in the Man Up sticky.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Deejo said:


> Well then, damn ... remember, well done is always better than well said.
> 
> Hope she warms up, and you should not become 'warmer' than her in the interim. I'm presuming you read the 'temperature' thread by MEM. If not, it's linked in the Man Up sticky.


Yes, I've read the temperature thread. I've always been the Warm one and she the cold. 

Not. Anymore. You're exactly correct....no warmer than her.

She's shown signs that she's warming up, but it's too soon to tell if it's a real change. Yesterday she emailed me a bunch of links to clothing she thought I'd look HOT in (her caps).

She also initiated sex again yesterday morning, despite being on her period. Too soon to tell how that sort of thing will last or not.


----------



## Anon Pink

Catherine602 said:


> Working - you would think it was ugly if you saw it. It had rust holes, no bumpers and it didn't even work. I never once laughed, it was hard though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Catherine, you get wife of the year for not laughing!


----------



## NobodySpecial

TheJourneyBegins said:


> *Followup:* She accepted the bullet points, but we had to go over them meticulously, and determine what everything really meant. Here is the "memory jog card":
> 
> _1. *Brief*, no-timer weekly meetings between us to review concerns.
> 
> 2. Penetrative sex minimum 3 times on weekdays and 2x on weekends. More is welcome. Rebukes OF ANY KIND for initiating sex not acceptable for either party. Non-penetrative sex
> can be substituted in extenuating circumstances. My wiring makes this a deal-breaker.
> _


_

That sounds like so much fun for you both._


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

NobodySpecial said:


> That sounds like so much fun for you both.


Well, If you've followed the thread, you know that this isn't the first or the 15th time we've discussed how to accommodate our issues. She told me that she feels that now, at least, she understands what my feelings are and what is important to me (not sure why she didn't get that from me before) and is more comfortable. I'm not looking to be difficult, but the relationship isn't working as it is. She asked what my issues were and I laid them out. 

I'm happy to provide positive reinforcement as we work towards a stronger relationship, and it's easy to see when she's making an effort. In turn, I make a strong effort to be the best man I can be (via NMMNG) for ME, and to acknowledge and express my appreciation for her efforts to change things for the better.


----------



## NobodySpecial

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Well, If you've followed the thread, you know that this isn't the first or the 15th time we've discussed how to accommodate our issues. She told me that she feels that now, at least, she understands what my feelings are and what is important to me (not sure why she didn't get that from me before) and is more comfortable. I'm not looking to be difficult, but the relationship isn't working as it is. She asked what my issues were and I laid them out.
> 
> I'm happy to provide positive reinforcement as we work towards a stronger relationship, and it's easy to see when she's making an effort. In turn, I make a strong effort to be the best man I can be (via NMMNG) for ME, and to acknowledge and express my appreciation for her efforts to change things for the better.


I was not trying to be mean. I get that your relationship has issues. It is just hard to see how this can possibly play out long term.


----------



## naiveonedave

NS - my take is he has now listed his needs. She needs to reciprocate if hers aren't being met. 

Following the thread, I can see why he got here, not sure how effective it will be, but as a nice guy (aka doormat) you don't get what you don't ask for, so maybe this will work?


----------



## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> NS - my take is he has now listed his needs. She needs to reciprocate if hers aren't being met.


Sex x times per week and y times per weekend is so clinical. I guess I am questioning identifying that as a need. I will readily admit I don't know how to work through this kind of issue. But when I read that, it says to me No Frickin WAY. But she seems to be getting it now which she hadn't before. Who am I to say?


----------



## sinnister

She's always known what your concerns were man. Don't sell yourself short. She's never wanted to act upon them.

I'm glad she's showing early signs of coming around.

Stay positive and upbeat. You will need it when she slides back to normalcy.


----------



## Cynthia

Having sex more often may change her way of thinking, as it does bind her to you more and could make her feel loved and sexy, which most women want to feel, especially if you compliment her while making love and let her know how much you want her, not just sex, but her.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

NobodySpecial said:


> Sex x times per week and y times per weekend is so clinical. I guess I am questioning identifying that as a need. I will readily admit I don't know how to work through this kind of issue. But when I read that, it says to me No Frickin WAY. But she seems to be getting it now which she hadn't before. Who am I to say?


It sounds clinical to me too. I dislike putting it that way. However, when I've tried in the past to say less absolutely precise things, she's asked me for much more precision.....Ex: 

me: We need to talk for a few minutes about something important
her: How long is a few?
me: 10 minutes or so
her: Is that 10 minutes or 12 minutes or 15?
me: No more than 10 minutes
Her: So you're saying this won't take more than 10 minutes?
me: yes.
her: Yes it will or yes it won't
Me: It will not take longer than 10 minues
her: What should I do if it does?

So, as she's asked for in the past, I've listed things in minute detail.

I hate doing things this way. But I had to in this case.


----------



## Cynthia

That is really strange. I wonder what causes her to respond to you that way. It makes communication difficult. She must be really uptight. Maybe it would help her to relax her thinking a bit, so she can relate to you better.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

It's very tiring. And her common complaint is that she has never had this much trouble communicating with someone before. An example VERY recently (today):

Her: Would you rub my back under my shoulderblade? I have a really knotted muscle.
Me: I'm sorry you are feeling bad. I'd be happy to rub it for you
Her: So, is that Yes? Why don't you ever just answer the question.
Me: If I say I'd be happy to, that's yes!
Her: Then why don't you say "Yes"?
Me: It's just the way I talk...it's hard to change your fundamental speech pattern"
Her: I'm not asking you....ohh....forget it. <Silence>


----------



## NobodySpecial

TheJourneyBegins said:


> It sounds clinical to me too. I dislike putting it that way. However, when I've tried in the past to say less absolutely precise things, she's asked me for much more precision.....Ex:
> 
> me: We need to talk for a few minutes about something important
> her: How long is a few?
> me: 10 minutes or so
> her: Is that 10 minutes or 12 minutes or 15?
> me: No more than 10 minutes
> Her: So you're saying this won't take more than 10 minutes?
> me: yes.
> her: Yes it will or yes it won't
> Me: It will not take longer than 10 minues
> her: What should I do if it does?
> 
> So, as she's asked for in the past, I've listed things in minute detail.
> 
> I hate doing things this way. But I had to in this case.


Ugh. You like this person?  Sorry that was not very helpful. But that would make me bat **** crazy. I guess I am just sympathizing with you.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

NobodySpecial said:


> Ugh. You like this person?  Sorry that was not very helpful. But that would make me bat **** crazy. I guess I am just sympathizing with you.


It's a long story. I DO VERY MUCH appreciate the sympathy...at least I know I'm not BSK! LOL 

Strangely, I DO like her; it's really hard to explain....but as I'm recovering, I'm finding that I tolerate less and less BS.


----------



## MEM2020

TJB,
This is LMAO funny. Your answer was:
- 100% percent clear
- empathetic 
- normal length for human communication 

Her response was:
- bltchy
- ungrateful 
- A totally unnecessary put down 

Your issue is that when she does this, you don't respond properly.
The proper response is:

You: You're right, I need to practice being more concise. Let's practice. Ask me the question again.
Her: my back hurts, will you rub it
You: No
Her: very funny
You: Not kidding. Learn to be grateful for a yes. Even a multi word version of yes. Practice saying 'Thank You'




TheJourneyBegins said:


> It's very tiring. And her common complaint is that she has never had this much trouble communicating with someone before. An example VERY recently (today):
> 
> Her: Would you rub my back under my shoulderblade? I have a really knotted muscle.
> Me: I'm sorry you are feeling bad. I'd be happy to rub it for you
> Her: So, is that Yes? Why don't you ever just answer the question.
> Me: If I say I'd be happy to, that's yes!
> Her: Then why don't you say "Yes"?
> Me: It's just the way I talk...it's hard to change your fundamental speech pattern"
> Her: I'm not asking you....ohh....forget it. <Silence>


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Anon Pink said:


> Catherine, you get wife of the year for not laughing!



It's not called ugly. It's called character!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

TheJourneyBegins said:


> It sounds clinical to me too. I dislike putting it that way. However, when I've tried in the past to say less absolutely precise things, she's asked me for much more precision.....Ex:
> 
> 
> 
> me: We need to talk for a few minutes about something important
> 
> her: How long is a few?
> 
> me: 10 minutes or so
> 
> her: Is that 10 minutes or 12 minutes or 15?
> 
> me: No more than 10 minutes
> 
> Her: So you're saying this won't take more than 10 minutes?
> 
> me: yes.
> 
> her: Yes it will or yes it won't
> 
> Me: It will not take longer than 10 minues
> 
> her: What should I do if it does?
> 
> 
> 
> So, as she's asked for in the past, I've listed things in minute detail.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate doing things this way. But I had to in this case.



This quote from her, and your bullet points from earlier make her sound like a prostitute.


----------



## Catherine602

Holy sh!t, Journey, you said what? And she said what? 

You've backed her up into a corner and she is probably seething like a tiger. All you have done is to teach her to cloak her resentment and anger more effectively now. 

It will come out when she does things that she does not want to do but feels she must so that she has a place to live.

It would have been better to negotiate changes so that she buys in. I think you need to prepare yourself for a big setback. 

An intimate loving relationship is a choice. If she is in the relationship because you can partially bankroll her lifestyle, I don't think you will be any happier than you are now.


----------



## Catherine602

Anon Pink said:


> Catherine, you get wife of the year for not laughing!


 not only that, I said - sweeeet


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Catherine602 said:


> not only that, I said - sweeeet


Wait. So when my wife saw my motorcycle and said 'sweeeet' she was really thinking.....???

Ouch. lol


----------



## WorkingOnMe

TheJourneyBegins said:


> It sounds clinical to me too. I dislike putting it that way. However, when I've tried in the past to say less absolutely precise things, she's asked me for much more precision.....Ex:
> 
> me: We need to talk for a few minutes about something important
> her: How long is a few?
> me: 10 minutes or so
> her: Is that 10 minutes or 12 minutes or 15?
> me: No more than 10 minutes
> Her: So you're saying this won't take more than 10 minutes?
> me: yes.
> her: Yes it will or yes it won't
> Me: It will not take longer than 10 minues
> her: What should I do if it does?
> 
> So, as she's asked for in the past, I've listed things in minute detail.
> 
> I hate doing things this way. But I had to in this case.


This was a **** test. I've had conversations start like that before. This is how that goes in my house:

me: We need to talk for a few minutes about something important
her: How long is a few?
me: 10 minutes or so
her: Is that 10 minutes or 12 minutes or 15?
me: I'm not going to limit myself or ration my speech. When you're ready to talk let me know.

**WOM walks our to the garage and busies himself with something unrelated**

20 minutes later she comes out and apologizes.

One of the main things this exchange told your SO is that even though you said what you needed to talk about was important, it really wasn't. Because if it was important you wouldn't have asked permission to discuss it....and if you did ask permission you wouldn't have allowed her to play games about it. So your words didn't match your actions. Your actions screemed out "important to TJB, and hopefully important you her".


----------



## WorkingOnMe

TheJourneyBegins said:


> It's very tiring. And her common complaint is that she has never had this much trouble communicating with someone before. An example VERY recently (today):
> 
> Her: Would you rub my back under my shoulderblade? I have a really knotted muscle.
> Me: I'm sorry you are feeling bad. I'd be happy to rub it for you
> Her: So, is that Yes? Why don't you ever just answer the question.
> Me: If I say I'd be happy to, that's yes!
> Her: Then why don't you say "Yes"?
> Me: It's just the way I talk...it's hard to change your fundamental speech pattern"
> Her: I'm not asking you....ohh....forget it. <Silence>


This was also a **** test. Which you failed. This is how this one is supposed to go:

Her: Would you rub my back under my shoulderblade? I have a really knotted muscle.
Me: I'm sorry you are feeling bad. I'd be happy to rub it for you
Her: So, is that Yes? Why don't you ever just answer the question.
Me: It was a yes, but now it's a no. Next time ask me with a little respect.

**that's your cue to walk out and do something YOU want to do.


Athol calls these "fitness tests". Are you sure you read this book?


----------



## Catherine602

TheJourneyBegins said:


> It sounds clinical to me too. I dislike putting it that way. However, when I've tried in the past to say less absolutely precise things, she's asked me for much more precision.....Ex:
> 
> me: We need to talk for a few minutes about something important
> her: How long is a few?
> me: 10 minutes or so
> her: Is that 10 minutes or 12 minutes or 15?
> me: No more than 10 minutes
> Her: So you're saying this won't take more than 10 minutes?
> me: yes.
> her: Yes it will or yes it won't
> Me: It will not take longer than 10 minues
> her: What should I do if it does?
> 
> So, as she's asked for in the past, I've listed things in minute detail.
> 
> I hate doing things this way. But I had to in this case.


This interchange is dripping with contempt from her to you. Do you know the that contempt shown to a partner is the most reliable predictor of D? 

You should have stopped her after the first response and told her that you are not playing games with her. 

The fact that you let this go is emblematic of the problem in your relationship. You are not backing her up when she gets b!tchy. 

In fact you let her get a couple of shots in while you are being nice. Then she deigns to give you an audience. At this rate, she will have you so twisted up with your list that you won't realize she is not doing anything on it.


----------



## Catherine602

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wait. So when my wife saw my motorcycle and said 'sweeeet' she was really thinking.....???
> 
> Ouch. lol


And........


----------



## Conrad

Journey,

How long have you been afraid of her?


----------



## Catherine602

Journey I hope you come back. My impression is that my posts and maybe others have not been as helpful as they could have been. 

It is easy for a bunch of strangers to fire off scripts that a you should have followed but anyone in the moment would have done what you did. 

The decent, strait forward is your basic approach to life. I don't think that you need a book or a system to get your gf to re-establish respect. 

You have to find what works for you both given your personalities. There is no magic formula no books that will tell you what to do. 

There is one basic tenant, most woman will push a man till she sees his limits. I do and if my husband did not push back, each time, I would be anxious that he will not be able to handle his stuff. 

I would think that I have to be strong for us both. I can be a strait up b!tch at times but he keeps me in check. I like it, it makes me feel safe. He is what some TAMers would call "beta", a nice guy, gentle, caring with a resilient core. 

But if I or anyone else (not kids, old people or the infirm) step within 10 feet of his boundaries he pushes back hard. 

He is so calm and focused that it's a little spooky. Then he is nice again if his limits are not violated. 

That's what I think you need to do. But use trail and error to find your way. It is not as hard as you think because you don't need to maintain a false persona. 

It is usually like a switch, you push back hard and she calms down. She will try it on again on a regular basis but you'll see it coming and check it. Then go back to your baseline.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Catherine602 said:


> I would think that I have to be strong for us both. I can be a strait up b!tch at times but he keeps me in check. I like it, it makes me feel safe. He is what some TAMers would call "beta", a nice guy, gentle, caring with a resilient core.
> 
> But if I or anyone else (not kids, old people or the infirm) step within 10 feet of his boundaries he pushes back hard.
> 
> He is so calm and focused that it's a little spooky. Then he is nice again if his limits are not violated.
> 
> That's what I think you need to do. But use trail and error to find your way. It is not as hard as you think because you don't need to maintain a false persona.
> 
> It is usually like a switch, you push back hard and she calms down. She will try it on again on a regular basis but you'll see it coming and check it. Then go back to your baseline.


Excellent advice. This IS what I'm trying to do right now. I do realize that I failed the S**T test with the most recent backrub incident (sounds like a movie title). However, I've had several issues since that I HAVE passed, using a combination of what WorkingonMe described and what you describe. Over the last couple of days, she has been getting more and more agreeable, checking with me before barging along doing things as she wants them and being a "BICS" (Bull in China Shop...I like to prounouce it "BIX"....LOL) and has been HUGELY more touchy feely, cooperative, etc. 

This morning, for instance, she called after she dropped her kids off to check in with me. She said that she'd have to spend some time with her kid and his homework, and that if I'd start dinner when I got home, she'd be sure to have him work somewhere so she could help me and then would take care of cleaning the kitchen. She also said she knew she would need a bit of time after dinner to help her kid (learning disability), but that she wanted to be sure I knew she wanted to spend time with me in the bedroom. Last night, she watched one episode of a tv show with her kid, asked me to come sit next to her during it so she could hold my hand, and whispered to me that she was feeling frisky and wanted me to f*** her hard as soon as the episode was done. As soon as it was done, she excused us and headed up where we had a really hot time with her being INCREDIBLY submissive.

There have been a couple of times where things have started to get a bit heated, and her words contained that same disrespect; my pat answer was; "We'll continue this conversation when you are ready to do so in a respectful manner". Turn on heel, walk out. 15min later, I got apologies. Every. Time.

Anyway, I'm not going anywhere, and I do have a VERY HIGH tolerance to 2x4s between the eyes, Catherine. I am finding this thread incredibly helpful (and fairly cathartic, not to put too fine a point on it). I REALLY appreciate being taken to task when I "backslide". 

I know things will continue to be rocky for quite some time, but these things at least are making my life much more tranquil. Also, I have done (in my opinion) an excellent job so far of detaching from outcome. I TRULY am fine with the eventuality of our breaking up and her leaving. 

I have not been "afraid of her" at all. I've been "afraid of her LEAVING" forever. 

Not. Any. More.

@Catherine: What would be some examples of his boundaries? Ones that make you feel respect for him and safety with him? Very curious.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Here's something interesting. My SO just texted me to say that she would like to work with me on both of our boundaries. Maybe, she said, we could get a workbook and do it for part of our "date night" each week. 

I agreed that I'd be happy to work towards improving boundaries for myself and he to work on hers, but probably not on "date" night. The workbook she had suggested I have a look at was written from a very biblical perspective (she's not particularly "religious" but she is Christian), and I told her that I would prefer a secular approach.

What do you think? Again, I'm guarded and very cautious with anything she suggests, but I don't see how working toward healthy boundaries for each of us has a downside. I'm doing that anyway, with our without her.

Any recommendations for the BEST book (hopefully WORKBOOK) to work from?


----------



## Cynthia

Is the book "Boundaries," by Townsend and McLoud? If so, it is by Christian authors, but the information would be useful for anyone wanting to form better boundaries in relationships. If you are interested in doing a study on boundaries with her, that's the book that I always hear mentioned.
You might want to sit down and go through Amazon with her looking for books about boundaries and choose together or at least have a look to see what is available before making a decision either way. You may come back to the book that she originally wanted, but it would be a joint decision, rather than you just going with what she wants.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

CynthiaDe said:


> Is the book "Boundaries," by Townsend and McLoud? If so, it is by Christian authors, but the information would be useful for anyone wanting to form better boundaries in relationships. If you are interested in doing a study on boundaries with her, that's the book that I always hear mentioned.
> You might want to sit down and go through Amazon with her looking for books about boundaries and choose together or at least have a look to see what is available before making a decision either way. You may come back to the book that she originally wanted, but it would be a joint decision, rather than you just going with what she wants.


Yes, that's the one. I'm not against a spiritual approach per se, however with our differing faiths I think that might be some minor irritation we don't need. I like your idea of looking with her. She asked me to have a look too and show her what I found, which I will do...there is one by Anne Katherine that seems very good, but it's not a workbook, which she and I would prefer..


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

CynthiaDe said:


> That is really strange. I wonder what causes her to respond to you that way. It makes communication difficult. She must be really uptight. Maybe it would help her to relax her thinking a bit, so she can relate to you better.


:iagree: I certainly see the control and boundary issues.


----------



## Catherine602

Journey one example - we got lost, my husband said he knew the directions so we didn't need the GPS. We were late and I got pissed. 

I said a few other things can't remember - "If you used the GPS in the first place... you'er making us late... you'er so stubborn". or something like that.

He kept driving, saying nothing and we got there. He did not ignore me but was just rather cool. When we got home, he asked me what happened in the car. 

I blamed him, but he stopped me and said "you were the one who ruined a perfectly good evening by getting upset over nothing". 

Won't go into he said she said but, no matter what I said, he kept coming back to my response as the problem. 

He asked me something like this - why did I ruined a good evening by getting angry over something that can't be undone? Was it worth it? 

He didn't shout, he just backed off and said no more. He almost had me convinced that I got us lost. Just kidding but I apologized the next day. 

I can't explain why his reactions calm me down and increased my confidence in him. He could have gotten angry or said he was sorry for getting lost or anything like that. 

But he acted unconcerned and calm and did not engage me. If he apologized I think I would feel that I needed to be vigilant because he can't manage. But he was calm and we got there no worries. Does that make sense?

What would you have done if your gf reacted the way I did?


----------



## Catherine602

I think the point is - don't get sucked into a contentious interactions and don't assume that making a mistake is an invitation for criticism or snide comments or needs an explanation or an apology. 

The less said the better. Gives you time to think and cool off. Of course apologize when you should but don't do it for every little thing. If you are a team, you cut each other slack.


----------



## jld

Catherine, do you mind if I say how my husband handles incidents similar to yours when you got mad at your dh?

He usually reflects the feeling. He might get mad at me, too, but he knows to resolve things, one of us has to reflect the feeling, and it will probably have to be him. 

When he does this with me, I feel understood and respected. I feel like he knows I am not trying to be a pain, but that I am just not able, for whatever reason, to be as mature and communicative as it would be nice for me to be.

When I feel understood, I inevitably apologize to him. And then there is true reconciliation in our relationship. I feel peace and so does he.

Just wanted to share another way to deal with a wife.


----------



## Catherine602

jld Thats a really good point. The confrontation approach is not always effective, depends on the situation. Mostly, it depends on the personalities of two people. I respond to reason and need time to reflect. Sometimes I need reassurance, like you. 

Really think that there is no right way, life is too complicated for the one size fits all approach. A few principals to follow would be more appropriate. 

I don't know what they are exactly. The team analogy works for me. If you are on the same side, don't treat each other like enemies.


----------



## jld

I think your husband's method is effective, too, Catherine. And he knows you best.

I think, for me, though, as I am really sensitive, that that approach would probably shut me down. Dh would get compliance, but my heart would feel afraid of him, or just not loved.

We actually had a similar incident recently. Dh got compliance, but distance. When I was able to talk to him, and help him see my side of things, he apologized and told me he would rather hear what I think, even if I said it disrespectfully, than not know what was in my heart. 

But ideally I would be able to share my heart in a respectful way. Something to shoot for. 

And I totally agree that we have to remember we are on the same team. Time spent fighting each other really is wasted.


----------



## happy as a clam

jld said:


> ...we have to remember we are on the same team. Time spent fighting each other really is wasted.


So true, so true. If couples would spend HALF the time actually resolving issues rather than bickering, fighting, or letting things "stew," they would be amazed at how it would transform their relationships. And they wouldn't be on TAM wondering why it all went down the sh*tter....


----------



## SurpriseMyself

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Hi, all!
> 
> I’m currently finishing up the MMSLP, and starting on the MAP as well as my NMMNG BFE’s (for the second time). I’m wondering if any of you have run into the issues I have in the MMSLP? Kay has a lot of good material and his theories are compelling. However, as far as his advice as to particular “alpha” techniques and suggestions for interactions with one’s partner (or prospective partner), I’ve found only a few to be feasible in my particular situation. For instance, Kay mentions playfully spanking her ass when she’s exhibiting a behavior that you wish to suppress (as in “Bad Girl”). He mentions this several times as a sort of gentle “alpha correction” as it were. I have, in fact had the opportunity to try this sort of approach with my SO in the not so distant past (not in connection with his advice, however, but rather from my own head). She had delivered some particularly biting remarks to me, in front of the kids, who had since left the room. I smirked, playfully spanked her ass in her jeans VERY lightly, with a comment to the effect that that was “Naughty”, and I’d prefer she didn’t do it again (but in a playfully sincere manner). She became incensed, looked me square in the eye and said, “Don’t EVER spank me again. YOU’RE NOT MY FATHER!!!!!! . Do you understand?”…….
> 
> Soooo, that’s right out. I’m thinking she has some issues, although she swears that her parents were strict but loving and no abuse took place.
> 
> His other suggestions, including telling her IN DETAIL what you plan to do in bed that night (“When we enter our room, first I’m going to…….then…..). Has resulted in the response, “You know, it really annoys me that you assume that I’m going to want to have sex with you. I think it’s arrogant as hell for you to start telling me what you’re going to do when you haven’t even ASKED ME IF I WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU TONITE!!!!!. And you know, I might have, but that’s just a huge turnoff”
> 
> I agree with his general ideas, and I’m on board with working the MAP, but most attempts that I’ve made to add some alpha to my beta (slowly and deliberately, not overdoing it) are met with an offended, dismissive SO.
> 
> What do you all think of his style and recommendations? Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE the book. I’m following that and NMMNG closely.


Really? A gentle spank like I'm a child who needs correcting would absolutely get your head bit off. Good lord, who is this guy? How do you handle such a situation at work, with a friend, or anywhere else? Because she's your wife you get to pop her backside instead of having an earnest conversation. You may like the book, but that suggestion is weak sauce!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

PHTlump said:


> :scratchhead: Which book did you read? How does the position that women like assertive men who are capable of leading them equate to the belief that women are worthless sex dolls?
> 
> To the OP, this is the kind of attitude that you have to be wary of. Women have been programmed that they must not allow any men to get the best of them. Even if those men are their husbands and their marriages would improve with more assertive men. Somehow, a captain/first officer model equals overseer/slave. So, if your wife gives signs of this attitude, you have to change the dynamic against her will.
> 
> Good luck.


Men who are leaders are capable of leading. But you aren't the leader of a family just because you are male. Not anymore, and that is as it should be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ebp123 said:


> Really? A gentle spank like I'm a child who needs correcting would absolutely get your head bit off. Good lord, who is this guy? How do you handle such a situation at work, with a friend, or anywhere else? Because she's your wife you get to pop her backside instead of having an earnest conversation. You may like the book, but that suggestion is weak sauce!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL. There would have been no earnest conversation. In the past, earnestly discussing this sort of thing with her and pointing out the damage this sort of behavior in front of the kids would do would have earned me serious rebuke from her, and some further dressing-down. My only hope was to lighten the mood; I've done that sort of thing many times before with playful results from her. After her rebuke at my attempts for earnest discussion, I would have received a "talk to the hand" gesture and silence.

Fortunately, we're well past this sort of issue in the thread, and things have become quite a bit more stable of late.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

ebp123 said:


> Men who are leaders are capable of leading. But you aren't the leader of a family just because you are male. Not anymore, and that is as it should be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL. How about because I own the house, pay ALL of the bills, including the mortgage, insurance, taxes, utilities, internet, cell phones, all car gasoline, cleaning lady, food, school supplies, computer equipment, water, water softener, with the exception of her kids school clothes) and am ultimately responsible for any repairs or issues associated with said house or property? It's not because I'm male. It's because I shoulder 99.99% of the financial and legal responsibility for the household, and do the lions share of daily chores and maintenance..


----------



## Catherine602

A big part of leadership is taking responsibility for dependants. Journey has certainly done that. In addition, the person who makes the most effort to make the relationship better is, a priori, the leader. He is doing that.

He could just ask her to leave since he is unhappy. Instead, honors his informal and voluntary commitment to care for her and children that are not his.

Journey's gf is certainly taking no leadership responsibility from what I see. She is dependent on him completely. 

She could get a full time job since her kids are in school and exercise her responsibility to her dependents and get the support that the father of her kids should pay. 

The butt slap. There is nothing wrong with trial and error, it's the hallmark of finding what works or not. His gf can say what she does not like. He listened. 

Apparently, he is not the type of man who needs to be knocked back to get him to acquiesce. A simple loving no from her would have sufficed.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Thanks Catherine. I appreciate that very kind response. 

Things have been up and down. She's following most of our agreed upon strategies; she has initiated sex 3 times this week, is doing a great deal more in terms of cooking, dishes, laundry and other things that I was having to shoulder practically solo. She's told me daily that she wants to make time for me that evening, and how she was going to accomplish it. In general, she's seemed to be trying hard to avoid conflict.

The downs do continue. We were out on a "date night" wednesday night. We were sitting at our favorite espresso place, joking and talking and having a good time. Out of nowhere, she pulls a book our of her bag and begins reading. Now, I LOVE reading, and under other circumstances, where we weren't on such a slippery slope, I would have shrugged it off and maybe pulled out my smartphone and read something too. However, we're doing this date night to support and help repair a relationship that is VERY rocky. To me, dates are an interactive activity, not a parallel activity with her reading and me doing something else. Additionally, I feel constrained to avoid talking to ANYONE when they're reading; I feel that each time I address them I'm interrupting. With her hatred of interruption, that pretty much shut off communication. So I said, "Seriously? You're going to read a book on date nite? I think that's incredibly rude, and I would ask that you don't do that when we're trying to have a night out together. 

She became angry, defensive and said,"I didn't know that was one of your new rules. I didn't see that on the sheet." I said, "Well, I would think that it was common courtesy and common sense that if we're trying to repair a problem we don't "zone out" when we're trying to have a date night". She said she didn't see anything wrong with it, I seemed to be having fun peoplewatching, and so she thought she would read. We had been in the middle of some fun conversation that was essentially cut off when she started reading.

Finally, we left and at home she was crying and telling me that she couldn't understand how I think; that I think SOOOOO differently from anyone else. I patiently explained that if I got 100 people to comment on whether it was wise to pull out a book and start reading it when you're out trying to have a good time and salvage a relationship with some alone time, I would get 99 "OMG no" answers. And that I was not so concerned about the act itself as with her inability to see and anticipate it's effect in the situation. 

She went to sleep, and the following morning she initiated VERY passionate sex. The day went fine, she went out that night to run errands. This morning, she seemed very vigorous, got up and got dressed. She even dressed up more than she usually does for work, and put on makeup....she seemed in a very positive mood. 

Dunno...it's weird. We're kind of "too formal" with each other right now....I hope that fades.....


----------



## Cynthia

I love to read. If I took my Kindle on a date, it would not go over well at all. lol That is really odd.
It's formal because it's new. When things are new, they are also kind of stiff and careful due to trying to get a feel for how things are. This will wear off when there is a new routine.


----------



## Catherine602

You should be very concerned. It seems that she is doing what she needs to do and not necessarily what she wants to do. 

If the change came from her heart, she would not need to refer to the list as if it were a script. I don't think this is reconnecting Journey. 

The book thing. When you first met and fell in love, would she have pulled out a book on a date? Sounds like she may have needed an intermission because she was not really enjoying herself. 

Your gf might be looking for a way to continue to live with you. What do you imagine would happen if she had the means to move out and live nicely someplace else? Would she follow the list or move out? 

Prepare yourself, the appearance of progress and reconnection may be the opposite. She is under stress because she may feel cornered. 

Don't be blinded by sex. Is she affectionate and loving outside of performing the listed items? Did she do anything spontaneously that was not on the list?


----------



## MEM2020

TJB,
You are right about the reading on a date. 

It's also true that your compulsive need to resolve every issue will ultimately leave no room for her occasionally wacky behavior in the relationship. And as you are discovering, the result will be a loss of playfulness and spontaneous independent action. Oh and one last thing: she will come to believe that she's living in a totalitarian state run by a kindly but suffocatingly controlling despot.....

Watch how this works:
T2: Taking out a book 
T1: Seeing a problem - with her - that needs to be fixed goes into fixer mode 
T1: What you're doing is inconsiderate
T2: I want to read, can't you amuse yourself for a few minutes (silently: I also like to annoy you when your people watching includes other women) 
T1: Besides our interpersonal dynamic is broken. You have more emotional muscle and employ street fighting tactics. So now I carry a financial hammer in my left hand and a Rulebook in my right. My Rulebook clearly states that this is not acceptable behavior out on a reparative date. 
T2: Can I just read? Please!
T1: Not only do I dislike this behavior, but 99% of Americans would dislike it. Don't you want to be LIKED?
T2: I would rather be well read

-------
So sure I took some license with the situation. How about this:
1. She isn't dissing you in front of anyone
2. So why can't you be honest:
(T1) Hey I was having a good time talking to you
(T2) I want to read, why don't you keep people watching 

At this point you take out your smart phone and amuse yourself for a while - as she reads. And yes - that means you don't interrupt her. 

If her book is still out 10-20 minutes later, and you are not enjoying a parallel date, than you tell her you want to head home. And you don't create a problem solving session out of it. If she asks if you're mad, just shrug and say: some dates are shorter than others. 

Do NOT force someone to interact with you more than they want to. 




TheJourneyBegins said:


> Thanks Catherine. I appreciate that very kind response.
> 
> Things have been up and down. She's following most of our agreed upon strategies; she has initiated sex 3 times this week, is doing a great deal more in terms of cooking, dishes, laundry and other things that I was having to shoulder practically solo. She's told me daily that she wants to make time for me that evening, and how she was going to accomplish it. In general, she's seemed to be trying hard to avoid conflict.
> 
> The downs do continue. We were out on a "date night" wednesday night. We were sitting at our favorite espresso place, joking and talking and having a good time. Out of nowhere, she pulls a book our of her bag and begins reading. Now, I LOVE reading, and under other circumstances, where we weren't on such a slippery slope, I would have shrugged it off and maybe pulled out my smartphone and read something too. However, we're doing this date night to support and help repair a relationship that is VERY rocky. To me, dates are an interactive activity, not a parallel activity with her reading and me doing something else. Additionally, I feel constrained to avoid talking to ANYONE when they're reading; I feel that each time I address them I'm interrupting. With her hatred of interruption, that pretty much shut off communication. So I said, "Seriously? You're going to read a book on date nite? I think that's incredibly rude, and I would ask that you don't do that when we're trying to have a night out together.
> 
> She became angry, defensive and said,"I didn't know that was one of your new rules. I didn't see that on the sheet." I said, "Well, I would think that it was common courtesy and common sense that if we're trying to repair a problem we don't "zone out" when we're trying to have a date night". She said she didn't see anything wrong with it, I seemed to be having fun peoplewatching, and so she thought she would read. We had been in the middle of some fun conversation that was essentially cut off when she started reading.
> 
> Finally, we left and at home she was crying and telling me that she couldn't understand how I think; that I think SOOOOO differently from anyone else. I patiently explained that if I got 100 people to comment on whether it was wise to pull out a book and start reading it when you're out trying to have a good time and salvage a relationship with some alone time, I would get 99 "OMG no" answers. And that I was not so concerned about the act itself as with her inability to see and anticipate it's effect in the situation.
> 
> She went to sleep, and the following morning she initiated VERY passionate sex. The day went fine, she went out that night to run errands. This morning, she seemed very vigorous, got up and got dressed. She even dressed up more than she usually does for work, and put on makeup....she seemed in a very positive mood.
> 
> Dunno...it's weird. We're kind of "too formal" with each other right now....I hope that fades.....


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

I would so be running from this relationship. The line from Apollo 13 comes to mind: "So what do we have on the spacecraft that's good?"

What do you getting out of the relationship TJB? It sounds like you're with someone who isn't into you, but who can be pulled along by a financial leash.


----------



## Cynthia

I agree with Catherine.
However, I am wondering if she has some processing issues. Some people take a while to process and understand situations, then learn how to work within the perimeters of the situation. I am wondering if maybe that is part of how she thinks. She also seems to become overwhelmed easily and react out of proportion to what is happening. These are indicative of a processing issue.
There could be a couple of explanations for her behavior; some good, some not so good. For example, she could be feeling sexier and more attractive now that you are having sex more and would be more likely to care for her appearance and put on makeup, etc. On the other hand, she could realize that she needs to get her act together so she can move on and find a new situation.
Keep working to improve your relationship and eventually you will know if she is drawing near or preparing to exit.


----------



## happy as a clam

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I would so be running from this relationship. The line from Apollo 13 comes to mind: "So what do we have on the spacecraft that's good?"


I love that line! And very applicable here...


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I would so be running from this relationship. The line from Apollo 13 comes to mind: "So what do we have on the spacecraft that's good?"
> 
> What do you getting out of the relationship TJB? It sounds like you're with someone who isn't into you, but who can be pulled along by a financial leash.


Not only is Apollo 13 one of my all time favorite movies, and Ed Harris one of my all time favorite actors, but that line is my favorite line in the movie. I absolutely, totally agree with it's use here. "What have we got in the relationship that's good?"


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

CynthiaDe said:


> I agree with Catherine.
> However, I am wondering if she has some processing issues. Some people take a while to process and understand situations, then learn how to work within the perimeters of the situation. I am wondering if maybe that is part of how she thinks. She also seems to become overwhelmed easily and react out of proportion to what is happening. These are indicative of a processing issue.
> There could be a couple of explanations for her behavior; some good, some not so good. For example, she could be feeling sexier and more attractive now that you are having sex more and would be more likely to care for her appearance and put on makeup, etc. On the other hand, she could realize that she needs to get her act together so she can move on and find a new situation.
> Keep working to improve your relationship and eventually you will know if she is drawing near or preparing to exit.


I DO know that she does have processing issues. I process as I talk, she needs time; not that that is a dysfunctional issue specifically, but she ALWAYS says things like "I can't process that now, I probably will in the next day or so". And then she comes back with it processed in a day or so. Or, we'll have an argument, resolve it, make nice and have a good day, then 2 days later she'll come back fuming, having finished "processing" the issue.

She is very easily overwhelmed, and this relationship issue is coming at the same time as huge, sweeping changes at work and some significant issues with her kids' learning disability. I don't believe for a moment that she's not overwhelmed.

Yes, she could be gearing up for an exit; dunno. She invited me just a few minutes ago to go out on a date and get burgers and beer tomorrow night. And accepted my offer of some intimate time tonite.

I also want to reassure everyone here that I am NOT being blinded by her recent increase in sexual interest. Yes, I need sex, and a fair amount. However, I got myself into this situation by being a NG that did all of the fixing, caretaking, covert contracting, apologizing, eggshell walking because I was afraid of losing THE SEX.

I'm not making that mistake again. A relationship is more than sex. A lot more.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Catherine602 said:


> You should be very concerned. It seems that she is doing what she needs to do and not necessarily what she wants to do.
> 
> If the change came from her heart, she would not need to refer to the list as if it were a script. I don't think this is reconnecting Journey.
> 
> The book thing. When you first met and fell in love, would she have pulled out a book on a date? Sounds like she may have needed an intermission because she was not really enjoying herself.
> 
> Your gf might be looking for a way to continue to live with you. What do you imagine would happen if she had the means to move out and live nicely someplace else? Would she follow the list or move out?
> 
> Prepare yourself, the appearance of progress and reconnection may be the opposite. She is under stress because she may feel cornered.
> 
> Don't be blinded by sex. Is she affectionate and loving outside of performing the listed items? Did she do anything spontaneously that was not on the list?


She has made fewer and fewer references to the list and more of wanting to make this work, so hopefully that will improve.

I don't really know what she would do if she had the means. She might vanish, or she might stay. It's really hard to tell. I do know that the progress may be the opposite...and I'm prepared for it.

The pulling out a book on a date: if that happened on date #1, there wouldn't have been a date#2.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Fantastic post. I am working hard on that "compulsive need to resolve every issue". This is a manifestation of my generalized need to do so in everyday life. I don't want her to feel less than spontaneous. And I completely understand and have taken to heart (soon to have internalized) the view of the situation that you've described.

I like your way of dealing with this and similar situations.

And, for what it's worth, we've always pointed out attractive members of the opposite sex to each other (and she was doing it that night as well), so it's not likely that she was bothered by any particular people-watching I was doing....


----------



## Catherine602

To me ultimatums are never good because a decision is made based on extremes, under pressure with no negotiation. Relationships don't work that way. Your gf should buy into staying in the relationship and want to give as much as she gets. 

I don't think it is time to just end the relationship. You want to learn how to be in any loving relationship. That means you don't cut and run. 

I don't think you can tell what she feels right now. She is too afraid to be honest. 

How about hitting the reset button and ditch the list. Before you do, think of how to negotiate a comfortable relationship where you are both speaking from the heart? 

I like MEM's advice. Always measured and sensible.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Catherine602 said:


> To me ultimatums are never good because a decision is made based on extremes, under pressure with no negotiation. Relationships don't work that way. Your gf should buy into staying in the relationship and want to give as much as she gets.
> 
> I don't think it is time to just end the relationship. You want to learn how to be in any loving relationship. That means you don't cut and run.
> 
> I don't think you can tell what she feels right now. She is too afraid to be honest.
> 
> How about hitting the reset button and ditch the list. Before you do, think of how to negotiate a comfortable relationship where you are both speaking from the heart?
> 
> I like MEM's advice. Always measured and sensible.


I don't think it's time to just end the relationship either. And I never do the "cut and run". As for ditching the list, she's never been good at telling me what she wants, truthfully. I am an open book regarding what I think I want and need (too open, I think I am finding), but I can't ever seem to get her, no matter what the mood or circumstance, into a heart-to-heart, open talk about anything. She never answers, always says "I have no opinion on that, I'll have to think about it and get back to you". It's like trying to have a conversation by snail-mail across the ocean, or one of those chess games people used to have where they snail-mail each move to each other. Discourse is lost. Nothing I can do if she won't engage in any reciprocal conversations, but has to "process" each thing I say.

I don't want to "trap" her, or make her feel forced to stay. I just know that the dynamics of the relationship are not tolerable for me. In enumerating what would make them tolerable, I gave her what she asked for.....a list of my needs and requirements. I asked her for one from her, and she never has responded to that request with a list.

Anyway, I hope things work out. She's doing a lot of spontaneous nice things, and has acted more loving and attentive since this "great experiment"" began.


----------



## Catherine602

I understand better. She is not a communicator with words. So her actions speak for her. You are a very perceptive going by your posts. 

You're right, give it time.


----------



## happy as a clam

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Not only is Apollo 13 one of my all time favorite movies, and Ed Harris one of my all time favorite actors...












Couldn't resist! Next time she gets you down, picture Ed Harris as Gene Kranz...


----------



## MEM2020

Ok - that's fair. 

I don't recommend doing anything I haven't field tested. 

When M2 occasionally gets into her smartphone, I pull mine out. Since I know that generally she loves to spend time with me, I don't feel slighted. And geeky as this is - I love that she loves to read. To be fair, she rarely phubs me on a date. 

Here is one thing I have always known. Trying to force more interaction than someone else wants is a certain train wreck. 

That said, if I were single I would enforce some rules during dinner. Phones off. Full stop. As for the 'but what if there's an emergency and one of my kids....'. You give the sitter the name of the restaurant. If there is a genuine emergency they call the restaurant directly. 





TheJourneyBegins said:


> Fantastic post. I am working hard on that "compulsive need to resolve every issue". This is a manifestation of my generalized need to do so in everyday life. I don't want her to feel less than spontaneous. And I completely understand and have taken to heart (soon to have internalized) the view of the situation that you've described.
> 
> I like your way of dealing with this and similar situations.
> 
> And, for what it's worth, we've always pointed out attractive members of the opposite sex to each other (and she was doing it that night as well), so it's not likely that she was bothered by any particular people-watching I was doing....


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

happy as a clam said:


> Couldn't resist! Next time she gets you down, picture Ed Harris as Gene Kranz...


THANKS! Actually, the whole "Gene Kranz approach" carries with it a very valuable viewpoint and disposition, and makes me feel calm and measured inside.

What a great story. But let's not forget Sy Liebergot, who, as eecom on Apollo 13, had a major influence on the outcome of the mission (Clint Howard in the movie) and John Aaron, the "steely-eyed missleman" who not only helped develop the electrical powerup sequence that saved the Apollo 13 command module but also saved Apollo 12 on liftoff when the spacecraft was struck by lightning.

Ok, done now.


----------



## MEM2020

TJB,
I love that movie. 

Speaking of which, do you have a clearly defined mission? For you? 

I know what mine would be if I were in your shoes. 




TheJourneyBegins said:


> THANKS! Actually, the whole "Gene Kranz approach" carries with it a very valuable viewpoint and disposition, and makes me feel calm and measured inside.
> 
> What a great story. But let's not forget Sy Liebergot, who, as eecom on Apollo 13, had a major influence on the outcome of the mission (Clint Howard in the movie) and John Aaron, the "steely-eyed missleman" who not only helped develop the electrical powerup sequence that saved the Apollo 13 command module but also saved Apollo 12 on liftoff when the spacecraft was struck by lightning.
> 
> Ok, done now.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

I have to note here, that what I really want to do in my heart is to sit down with her and say:

"Look, I just want to talk openly, honestly and truthfully. I know you've already told me that you still love me, and that you want to stay with ME and not the house. I want to make the best try at this that we can, so I want you to be honest: Are you making plans to leave, or thinking about an exit strategy? If so, do you think that we'll be able to work at this properly while you have that in mind? Are you just going along with this until you can find someplace else?". 

I'd love to have a frank, heart to heart talk with her, up to and including asking her in a non-threatening way if there is someone else. She's never given me any indication that there was, but i suppose paying more attention to one's appearance could be looked at by some as a telltale sign. (I know this sounds paranoid, and it does even to me. She's never given me any reason to doubt her in the past). 

I just want to really see what our baseline is...it's difficult to read her and she's not forthcoming with information. Asking her for this sort of conversation would be met with a sigh and a "Do we HAVE to? Can't we just BE?"


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

MEM11363 said:


> TJB,
> I love that movie.
> 
> Speaking of which, do you have a clearly defined mission? For you?
> 
> I know what mine would be if I were in your shoes.


My best shot at a clearly defined mission:

"Do the work to divest myself of the NG behaviors and attitudes that have prevented me from achieving what I want in life. Specifically, the enmeshment, the fixing, the dependency, the lack of boundaries and the attachment to outcome that have hamstrung me. Do this by following the BFEs in the NMMNG book, and by learning how to set healthy boundaries. In the process, to create healthy interactions for myself with my SO, even if my side of the interaction is the only healthy side. 

If my SO witnesses and enjoys my transformation and my interactions with her because of it, and commits to working to make our relationship whole and healthy, I will work as hard as I can to make this a reality, in keeping with my new level of integration. 

If she resists this approach, I will take steps to end the relationship in a respectful way, knowing that my next relationship will be all the healthier because of the work I am currently doing on myself."

How does that compare to yours?, MEM?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

MEM11363 said:


> TJB,
> Do NOT force someone to interact with you more than they want to.


This is the hardest thing in this whole process, I think. I'm very gregarious by nature, she needs LOTS of space (alone time, time to herself, time with her kids, down time, time for me...she calls it by many names). I wasn't brought up to think of a relationship partnership in those terms.....but I do understand what she's saying. She hates when I interrupt her doing things (cooking, laundry, whatever) with a hug or a kiss, just for no reason.....she just leers at me and says, "I'm in the middle of something and you stop me......." I now ask if she has time for a hug, and she'll give me one and hold it until I say something about being done, then she'll let go and go about her business. 

I think I ask for WAY too much time from her.....it appears that the proper ratio would be WAY skewed toward time alone and with her kids......something in the 30/70 or 35/65 range of time with me/spacetime.

Very insightful, MEM


----------



## MEM2020

TJ,
I think that's good. 

And you are clearly making progress which you should feel good about. 

As for your post above: 
- You want to have a conversation that reduces your anxiety
- And you're keenly aware she dislikes those conversations 

Your primary anxiety is caused by uncertainty. So your goal in that type conversation is to create more certainty: 
- best case: For her to reassure you that she isn't leaving or
- mid case: For her to tell you why she is thinking about leaving so you can tell her why you two are good together or 
- worst case: For her to defy you, or say she's leaving so you can end it and start over (bad, but tolerable)

For your GF, this is exhausting. 
- She finds your anxiety/fear draining and a turn off
- At some level, even if she can't describe it clearly, she feels that it's grossly unfair of you to 
A. keep her on a short, tight leash that is predicated on eviction/financial pain 
B. While simultaneously asking her for reassurance 
- She knows from history that you suffer from nervous talkativeness and that these conversations can feel really long / claustrophobic

Give the woman some breathing room. With a little space and time she is likely to come to you. Don't be cold or hostile. Be friendly and just a little reserved. Let her hug you. Let her take you to bed - or not. 

If she doesn't, that's ok. You're a smart, talented and attractive guy and you will have lots of options. 

In the meantime, it might even be best for you to call a guy friend and go do a guys night out. Just make sure that you behave the same way you'd want her to behave if she was having a GNO. 





TheJourneyBegins said:


> My best shot at a clearly defined mission:
> 
> "Do the work to divest myself of the NG behaviors and attitudes that have prevented me from achieving what I want in life. Specifically, the enmeshment, the fixing, the dependency, the lack of boundaries and the attachment to outcome that have hamstrung me. Do this by following the BFEs in the NMMNG book, and by learning how to set healthy boundaries. In the process, to create healthy interactions for myself with my SO, even if my side of the interaction is the only healthy side.
> 
> If my SO witnesses and enjoys my transformation and my interactions with her because of it, and commits to working to make our relationship whole and healthy, I will work as hard as I can to make this a reality, in keeping with my new level of integration.
> 
> If she resists this approach, I will take steps to end the relationship in a respectful way, knowing that my next relationship will be all the healthier because of the work I am currently doing on myself."
> 
> How does that compare to yours?, MEM?


----------



## Catherine602

TheJourneyBegins said:


> I have to note here, that what I really want to do in my heart is to sit down with her and say:
> 
> "Look, I just want to talk openly, honestly and truthfully. I know you've already told me that you still love me, and that you want to stay with ME and not the house. I want to make the best try at this that we can, so I want you to be honest: Are you making plans to leave, or thinking about an exit strategy? If so, do you think that we'll be able to work at this properly while you have that in mind? Are you just going along with this until you can find someplace else?".
> 
> I'd love to have a frank, heart to heart talk with her, up to and including asking her in a non-threatening way if there is someone else. She's never given me any indication that there was, but i suppose paying more attention to one's appearance could be looked at by some as a telltale sign. (I know this sounds paranoid, and it does even to me. She's never given me any reason to doubt her in the past).
> 
> I just want to really see what our baseline is...it's difficult to read her and she's not forthcoming with information. Asking her for this sort of conversation would be met with a sigh and a "Do we HAVE to? Can't we just BE?"


I don't think you will get an answer let alone an honest one. She does communicate but it seems to be much different than your style. 

You have to learn to accurately decode her language. What might work is to back off for the time being. Give her a chance to process. The response may come out slowly and not all at once, if you give her space. 

Welcome her reactions and communicate in a concise manner. 

Be observant but not the way you were before you got fed up. You were vigilant for signs of withdrawal and ways to avoid it. Observation is letting her react to life the way she does. 

My suggestions based on what you have described- Be proactive about asking for what you need so you avoid feeling used. Make sure you don't get into a position of over functioning. 

Communicate to her that it is important that you both give as much as you get. You have the makings of a good relationship if there is understanding and appreciation on both your parts. 

Sounds like there is love but it takes more than that.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Excellent suggestions, much in line with MEMs as well. I'll be putting that sort of attitude into practice.


----------



## happy as a clam

TheJourneyBegins said:


> She hates when I interrupt her doing things (cooking, laundry, whatever) with a hug or a kiss, just for no reason.....she just leers at me and says, "I'm in the middle of something and you stop me......."


This just makes me sad. See, Journey, this is why I have doubts about whether or not this will ever work. The two of you just sound like a mismatch.

When I'm cooking, cleaning, whatever, and SO comes up to me with affection, h*ll, I drop everything! (Sometimes it even leads to other things... hehe) I figure, the dirty dishes will still be there... 

I adore being hugged and kissed, and it sounds like you do to. I just can't imagine going through life feeling like all affection is begrudged and a chore.

Btw, your "mission" sounds good. I hope, either way, it all works out the way you want it to.


----------



## Catherine602

MEM11363 said:


> TJ,
> I think that's good.
> 
> And you are clearly making progress which you should feel good about.
> 
> As for your post above:
> - You want to have a conversation that reduces your anxiety
> - And you're keenly aware she dislikes those conversations
> 
> Your primary anxiety is caused by uncertainty. So your goal in that type conversation is to create more certainty:
> - best case: For her to reassure you that she isn't leaving or
> - mid case: For her to tell you why she is thinking about leaving so you can tell her why you two are good together or
> - worst case: For her to defy you, or say she's leaving so you can end it and start over (bad, but tolerable)
> 
> For your GF, this is exhausting.
> - She finds your anxiety/fear draining and a turn off
> - At some level, even if she can't describe it clearly, she feels that it's grossly unfair of you to
> A. keep her on a short, tight leash that is predicated on eviction/financial pain
> B. While simultaneously asking her for reassurance
> - She knows from history that you suffer from nervous talkativeness and that these conversations can feel really long / claustrophobic
> 
> Give the woman some breathing room. With a little space and time she is likely to come to you. Don't be cold or hostile. Be friendly and just a little reserved. Let her hug you. Let her take you to bed - or not.
> 
> If she doesn't, that's ok. You're a smart, talented and attractive guy and you will have lots of options.
> 
> In the meantime, it might even be best for you to call a guy friend and go do a guys night out. Just make sure that you behave the same way you'd want her to behave if she was having a GNO.


:iagree: this is so right.


----------



## Cynthia

It is good that you are working on your relationship and working to have your needs met, but if you are in charge of everything and she has to go along with it, it's very one sided. Another thing that could be going on is that she is trying to make it work, but doesn't know if she can live by your rules and they are rules. Does she want to be ruled or does she want to be loved? She may be trying to process through this and see how it works. Most women want to be loved. They don't mind being led by a loving leader, but I don't know anyone who wants to be dominated and ruled over. A mutual relationship seems to me to be a lot healthier and that can happen when the man is the leader. Leader does not equal ruler.
I think if you ask her if she has an exit strategy, she would be afraid to tell you if she does, because that would leave her in a bad situation. You don’t want her in a survival mode. If she is worried about her family being homeless, that would put her right into survival mode and most people would have no problem lying to the face of someone they felt had power over their basic needs in order to feel safe. She is probably not feeling safe right now. Relationships should be safe. If she felt that you were willing to help her transition into a different lifestyle and truly showed you cared about her and her children by helping her make that transition, if she was unable to live by your rules, then she would be more free to tell you the truth. If she feels threatened, she will not be able to be honest with you; instead she will be afraid. Love and fear are like oil and water.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

@CynthiaDe That's precisely why I simply put down some bullet points of what I need to feel loved and appreciated....and with each thing we do we discuss it and she has LOTS of input on the decision that is made. I DO NOT want her to feel as though I'm ruling. I'm not. I am simply not feeling loved, respected or appreciated, and I'm trying to tell her, in a way that isn't too threatening, what my needs are in terms of feeling loved and appreciated. 

I think a lot of folks have gotten the impression that I'm trying to force this on her. I'm not. In a way, I'm just trying to cut to the chase: Is she willing to work to create a relationship where we BOTH can have our needs met, or not? The status quo was her getting her needs met...as she has told me in the past. However, I wasn't, and whenever I discussed it with her she would lapse into the standard refrain, "Nothing's ever good enough for you. We do X, and now you want to do X more often. You can't just take it for what it is and move on". Has to do with anything: when I experience something I love, I want to do it again.

Anyway, at this point I'm taking all of the wonderful advice I've received here and keeping on. I'll give her her space (as I was doing anyway), let her come to me or not, not try to get her to interact with me more than she wants to, refrain from initiating any heart to heart talks for a while, let her know she has a very important say in our relationship and decisions, let her be spontaneous, be supportive, warm and just a little reserved, accept her offers of love, sex and companionship, refer to our agreement as something that will help meet my needs rather than rules of engagement, and refrain from hugging/kissing when she's occupied, but save those things for when she's more receptive. Did I miss anything?


----------



## Catherine602

happy as a clam said:


> This just makes me sad. See, Journey, this is why I have doubts about whether or not this will ever work. The two of you just sound like a mismatch.
> 
> When I'm cooking, cleaning, whatever, and SO comes up to me with affection, h*ll, I drop everything! (Sometimes it even leads to other things... hehe) I figure, the dirty dishes will still be there...
> 
> I adore being hugged and kissed, and it sounds like you do to. I just can't imagine going through life feeling like all affection is begrudged and a chore.
> 
> Btw, your "mission" sounds good. I hope, either way, it all works out the way you want it to.


But his happiness should not hing on her expression of what she likes and does not like. I take issue with the way she makes the request. No reason to be unpleasant. 

As long as there is a balance of more positive interactions than negative. He should be able to tell her what he wants and expect a positive response too. 

Up till now, it's been mostly negative. Hopefully the recent changes will change the balance in favor of good. Then these things will seem small in the context of mostly good intimate interactions.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

And while I'm here, given all that has been discussed (I know I'm sounding a bit obsessive now, but I'd like an opinion (or as many as possible)....

What would be the opinion of the group with regard to this:

I'm considering, in our saturday lunch, of saying something on the order of :

"Although the points I've given you are extremely important to me in getting my needs met in our relationship, I feel that I may have gone about this in the wrong way. Rather than as rules or a mandate, I'd like you to consider those bullet points as things that I have been feeling were missing in order for my needs to be met; important parts of what I consider to be a close and satisfying relationship. Rather than feeling like you need to implement that list on pain of eviction, I'd really rather that you consider the list in light of what you think you can work toward. If you feel that points are beyond your capacity to address or to accomplish, then we will discuss how to handle that. It may be that you will feel that you need to leave. I would rather that you did than for both of us to labor over a relationship that doesn't have any hope of being satisfying to us. If you DO want to work on this, and we can agree that the needs that I specified are attainable, then I am happy to work diligently with you to accomplish that, and to meet YOUR needs as well. It's important to me that you understand how important having my needs met in this relationship is, as I am sure it is for you. My needs are my needs; in the past, you've said that things are never enough for me, but in reality, my level of "enough" is what it is. So, going forward, please don't consider these points as "rules" or a "mandate", but do consider them as my true feelings about what I need in a relationship to make me happy."

???


----------



## Catherine602

It sounds like you are a loving man. But don't put all of your cards on the table. I just watched a TED video suggested by a poster that I think would be good for you. I can't remember the name of the thread, I'll find out. 

You have a lot to give and you are generous. It's strange but sometimes giving too much is not appreciated. It may seem like control. 

Giving as much as you get may seem tit for tat but in a broad sense, it works better. I don't mean bean counting but the overall balance. 

Looking at what your relationship turned into with your non reciprocal giving - it illicits a sense of entitlement on your gf part. Any adult relationship is an exchange of satisfactions. 

Only kids and the infirm get unconditional love. In essence, you became a father figure and ceased to be her lover. Expect more and you will get it.


----------



## Catherine602

TheJourneyBegins said:


> And while I'm here, given all that has been discussed (I know I'm sounding a bit obsessive now, but I'd like an opinion (or as many as possible)....
> 
> What would be the opinion of the group with regard to this:
> 
> I'm considering, in our saturday lunch, of saying something on the order of :
> 
> "Although the points I've given you are extremely important to me in getting my needs met in our relationship, I feel that I may have gone about this in the wrong way. Rather than as rules or a mandate, I'd like you to consider those bullet points as things that I have been feeling were missing in order for my needs to be met; important parts of what I consider to be a close and satisfying relationship. Rather than feeling like you need to implement that list on pain of eviction, I'd really rather that you consider the list in light of what you think you can work toward. If you feel that points are beyond your capacity to address or to accomplish, then we will discuss how to handle that. It may be that you will feel that you need to leave. I would rather that you did than for both of us to labor over a relationship that doesn't have any hope of being satisfying to us. If you DO want to work on this, and we can agree that the needs that I specified are attainable, then I am happy to work diligently with you to accomplish that, and to meet YOUR needs as well. It's important to me that you understand how important having my needs met in this relationship is, as I am sure it is for you. My needs are my needs; in the past, you've said that things are never enough for me, but in reality, my level of "enough" is what it is. So, going forward, please don't consider these points as "rules" or a "mandate", but do consider them as my true feelings about what I need in a relationship to make me happy."
> 
> ???


Holy text wall, too much !! I stopped reading after the first couple of words. She will stop hearing after a few words, I bet. Read over your post again and then read MEM's post about talking to her. 

After all that you have communicated lately and given her slow processing speed, what do you think will happen? She will be overwhelmed and you will not have enjoyed your time together. 

Don't use outings to talk about the relationship, especially if she is in processing mode. She will dread the outings and dates. 

Maybe just "be" on Sat. Relax and have fun. Wait till the time is right. Consolidate what you have now. I'm not suggesting rug sweeping but patience and timing.

BTW I realize you have needs too and she has to accommodate your communication style just as you are doing. 

That's one of the reciprocal things you will have to negotiate. But take it slowly, don't throw everything out there at one time.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Catherine602 said:


> Holy text wall, too much !! I stopped reading after the first couple of words. She will stop hearing after a few words, I bet. Read over your post again and then read MEM's post about talking to her.
> 
> After all that you have communicated lately and given her slow processing speed, what do you think will happen? She will be overwhelmed and you will not have enjoyed your time together.
> 
> Don't use outings to talk about the relationship, especially if she is in processing mode. She will dread the outings and dates.
> 
> Maybe just "be" on Sat. Relax and have fun. Wait till the time is right. Consolidate what you have now. I'm not suggesting rug sweeping but patience and timing.
> 
> BTW I realize you have needs too and she has to accommodate your communication style just as you are doing.
> 
> That's one of the reciprocal things you will have to negotiate. But take it slowly, don't throw everything out there at one time.



LOL. Yeah. I read it after I posted it and I was wondering if it would make a great end of a movie speech (think Independence Day)..........LOL

I think I'll show her all of this by my actions. And by just being.


----------



## Catherine602

»General Relationship Discussion » 

The thread is in the GRD section entitled "If you need an epiphany about love, sex, relationships, desire... watch this!"


----------



## Catherine602

It's good to express whatever comes to mind here so you get feedback and refine your approach in what ever way you feel is right.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

TheJourneyBegins said:


> And while I'm here, given all that has been discussed (I know I'm sounding a bit obsessive now, but I'd like an opinion (or as many as possible)....
> 
> What would be the opinion of the group with regard to this:
> 
> I'm considering, in our saturday lunch, of saying something on the order of :
> 
> "Although the points I've given you are extremely important to me in getting my needs met in our relationship, I feel that I may have gone about this in the wrong way. Rather than as rules or a mandate, I'd like you to consider those bullet points as things that I have been feeling were missing in order for my needs to be met; important parts of what I consider to be a close and satisfying relationship. Rather than feeling like you need to implement that list on pain of eviction, I'd really rather that you consider the list in light of what you think you can work toward. If you feel that points are beyond your capacity to address or to accomplish, then we will discuss how to handle that. It may be that you will feel that you need to leave. I would rather that you did than for both of us to labor over a relationship that doesn't have any hope of being satisfying to us. If you DO want to work on this, and we can agree that the needs that I specified are attainable, then I am happy to work diligently with you to accomplish that, and to meet YOUR needs as well. It's important to me that you understand how important having my needs met in this relationship is, as I am sure it is for you. My needs are my needs; in the past, you've said that things are never enough for me, but in reality, my level of "enough" is what it is. So, going forward, please don't consider these points as "rules" or a "mandate", but do consider them as my true feelings about what I need in a relationship to make me happy."
> 
> ???


I think you talk waaaaaay to much about your relationship and emotions. There are a lot of women who find that a huge turn off. Your GF appears to be one of them. So why do you insist on doing it anyway?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Probably because I don't know any other way of eliciting feedback on what THEY are feeling; I don't like to be unsure or wondering how she's feeling. Not having a clear idea of what she thinks of how things are going makes me feel off-balance. I guess I don't want to be blindsided by someone saying "This has been crappy, I'm out of here. Too bad you didn't figure this out earlier". I always feel like if I share MINE, they'll share theirs.

Covert contracts seem to rule me, don't they? And compulsive fixitis. Even now, I'm incredibly anxious about what she's thinking, although I've been discussing it here and not with her. I don't like the not knowing, and she doesn't spontaneously share that sort of thing. If things are great, I get nothing. If she's pissed or things are going badly, that's when I hear from her.

Working on STFU, actually.


----------



## Deejo

TheJourneyBegins said:


> And while I'm here, given all that has been discussed (I know I'm sounding a bit obsessive now, but I'd like an opinion (or as many as possible)....
> 
> What would be the opinion of the group with regard to this:
> 
> I'm considering, in our saturday lunch, of saying something on the order of :
> 
> "Although the points I've given you are extremely important to me in getting my needs met in our relationship, I feel that I may have gone about this in the wrong way. Rather than as rules or a mandate, I'd like you to consider those bullet points as things that I have been feeling were missing in order for my needs to be met; important parts of what I consider to be a close and satisfying relationship. Rather than feeling like you need to implement that list on pain of eviction, I'd really rather that you consider the list in light of what you think you can work toward. If you feel that points are beyond your capacity to address or to accomplish, then we will discuss how to handle that. It may be that you will feel that you need to leave. I would rather that you did than for both of us to labor over a relationship that doesn't have any hope of being satisfying to us. If you DO want to work on this, and we can agree that the needs that I specified are attainable, then I am happy to work diligently with you to accomplish that, and to meet YOUR needs as well. It's important to me that you understand how important having my needs met in this relationship is, as I am sure it is for you. My needs are my needs; in the past, you've said that things are never enough for me, but in reality, my level of "enough" is what it is. So, going forward, please don't consider these points as "rules" or a "mandate", but do consider them as my true feelings about what I need in a relationship to make me happy."
> 
> ???


How about you just SHOW her instead. Rather than talking to her about 'getting you', just make it overtly clear either verbally or non-verbally when she does ... or does not.

I can see a hundred ways how that conversation as you outline it, goes belly up. Sounds like yet another platform for her to say, "See, it's never enough for you."


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think you talk waaaaaay to much about your relationship and emotions. There are a lot of women who find that a huge turn off. Your GF appears to be one of them. So why do you insist on doing it anyway?


^This. I have a bad habit of doing it too. It can come off insecure and be a major turn off. *I* think I'm being precise and direct, but it often appears to others I'm making mountains out of molehills. Difficult thing to regulate for us analytical wordy folks.

Gets worse when it comes to emotions as I have a horribly difficult time explaining anything emotional ("All the things" meme - use ALL the WORDS! lol). It all comes off weak.

Some people never have anything to say, others (me) never know when to shut up. lol


----------



## Tall Average Guy

TheJourneyBegins said:


> Probably because I don't know any other way of eliciting feedback on what THEY are feeling; I don't like to be unsure or wondering how she's feeling. Not having a clear idea of what she thinks of how things are going makes me feel off-balance. *I guess I don't want to be blindsided by someone saying "This has been crappy, I'm out of here. Too bad you didn't figure this out earlier". *I always feel like if I share MINE, they'll share theirs.
> 
> Covert contracts seem to rule me, don't they? And compulsive fixitis. Even now, I'm incredibly anxious about what she's thinking, although I've been discussing it here and not with her. I don't like the not knowing, and she doesn't spontaneously share that sort of thing. If things are great, I get nothing. *If she's pissed or things are going badly, that's when I hear from her*.


You do realize the the second bolded sentence takes care of your concerns outlined in the first one, don't you?



> Working on STFU, actually.


Good call.


----------



## Deejo

Just saw TAG's post.

Yes.

Please.

Work on Shutting TFU.

You sir ... are a RAGING Nice Guy. I don't say that with contempt ... but wow.

Your behavior is ingrained to the point of bringing about the very things you believe they will avoid.

You hinge your operational status on how she is feeling.

I'm going to guess that isn't the case in just this relationship, and I can tell you that if you want to change your outcomes in relationships, you seriously need to work on that.

Even within the context of this thread, it's subtle but very, very telling. 

You aren't really focused on what you are doing and feeling.

You are focused on what she is doing and feeling.

What exactly is it that you think will happen if you don't know or aren't aware of what she is feeling?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Deejo said:


> Just saw TAG's post.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Please.
> 
> Work on Shutting TFU.
> 
> You sir ... are a RAGING Nice Guy. I don't say that with contempt ... but wow.
> 
> Your behavior is ingrained to the point of bringing about the very things you believe they will avoid.
> 
> You hinge your operational status on how she is feeling.
> 
> I'm going to guess that isn't the case in just this relationship, and I can tell you that if you want to change your outcomes in relationships, you seriously need to work on that.
> 
> Even within the context of this thread, it's subtle but very, very telling.
> 
> You aren't really focused on what you are doing and feeling.
> 
> You are focused on what she is doing and feeling.
> 
> What exactly is it that you think will happen if you don't know or aren't aware of what she is feeling?


<Taking Deep Breath>

Yes, you're quite right. I'm a RNG alright. With your help (the gentle 2x4) I can see that quite clearly. Time to GMHOMA and STFU. TAG makes a GREAT point with his bolded sentence explanation.

Time to regroup, STFU, relaax, STFU, do the BFEs again, STFU.

Did I mention I need to STFU?

Seriously, thanks for setting me straight. This is harder than I realized, but it IS worth it.


----------



## Cynthia

Hard is not bad. Often it's the hard things that are really worth the effort - not always - but often. The key is to know the difference between hard for nothing and hard for a reason.


----------



## NobodySpecial

TheJourneyBegins said:


> <Taking Deep Breath>
> 
> Yes, you're quite right. I'm a RNG alright. With your help (the gentle 2x4) I can see that quite clearly. Time to GMHOMA and STFU. TAG makes a GREAT point with his bolded sentence explanation.
> 
> Time to regroup, STFU, relaax, STFU, do the BFEs again, STFU.
> 
> Did I mention I need to STFU?
> 
> Seriously, thanks for setting me straight. This is harder than I realized, but it IS worth it.


I have absolutely nothing useful to add from a content standpoint. I just wanted to say that I think it is awesome how you have started on understanding and are really doing the things that can help turn yo around. Or trying to. So often boards of this sort you see can't, but, and all the reasons that people have for why they are going to continute to do the things that have gotten them results that they don't like. 

Keep on keeping on. </encouragement>


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

@Special Thanks! Truly appreciated.

I think I must be too sensitive to things, and I'm trying not to be. 

My SO brought pizza home, and we were getting pieces out onto plates. I was going to sit down with her and eat, when her 13yr old comes in and says, "Hey, want to watch some TV?" A program I don't particularly like. She said, "Sure, that would be great!" and then went to sit next to him to watch. I thought, "What the hell, I don't HATE the program, so I'll sit with her and watch." Partway through, she gets up to get more to drink, and asks her son, "Can I get you anything? More pizza, drink?" He asks her for a drink. She goes into the kitchen. Not a word to me to ask if I want anything. So, I said, "Nah, I don't want anything either." She says, "Oh, did you want something? Is that your way of asking for me to get you something?"

Am I being too sensitive? It's obvious that she's just not thinking about me, but it just does hurt. I know it's her son, and she has to think of him first; and that's sort of hard when you're the husband.

I didn't say anything else, I STFU. She truly has no clue why I would be offended. I suppose maybe I shouldn't. I don't know anymore. One thing's for sure, I have been trying too hard.


----------



## MEM2020

TJ,
That sounds similar in tone to the legal disclaimer at the bottom of a marketing document. 

I am guessing that:
1. You are currently having a mild but persistent anxiety attack that she might leave you. 
2. In an attempt to 'fix' your current conflict you plan to retreat from your earlier - hard line in the sand (*BAD MOVE)*
3. You hope she'll perceive generosity, and be grateful. In reality she will correctly perceive weakness and be turned off. 

Give her room to breathe and do NOT use the word/phrase eviction in any context. 

Tell her that: 
overall it was a good week. 

Then shut up. That's it, say those 6 words and nothing else. 

If she mentions the date just smile, shrug and acknowledge that there is room in the relationship for differing viewpoints. 

If she attempts to intimidate you, and I'm guessing she will, you might want to practice the ultimate in brevity. See below.

Good chance she says: 
I've been thinking about it and don't think I can live like this. 
TJ: ok
T2: You're way too controlling 
TJ: ok
T2: What does ok mean?
TJ: This has been helpful, let me know what you want to do (ask for the check) 

Note: Its been one week, and generally a decent week for her. So if she plays this game it'll be because she senses that you are anxious and ready to fold/resume being a doormat. 

That said, if you insist on micro managing this going forward she WILL leave eventually. 

As for her reaction to being hugged while in the middle of dong stuff. Everyone is down on her for that. I'm not down on her as long as she gives you a sufficient amount of affection overall. Honestly this comes back to you crowding her. I think she really does like you. But your lack of confidence results in constantly requesting her affirmation/approval. And no woman will like that. 



QUOTE=TheJourneyBegins;7905946]And while I'm here, given all that has been discussed (I know I'm sounding a bit obsessive now, but I'd like an opinion (or as many as possible)....

What would be the opinion of the group with regard to this:

I'm considering, in our saturday lunch, of saying something on the order of :

"Although the points I've given you are extremely important to me in getting my needs met in our relationship, I feel that I may have gone about this in the wrong way. Rather than as rules or a mandate, I'd like you to consider those bullet points as things that I have been feeling were missing in order for my needs to be met; important parts of what I consider to be a close and satisfying relationship. Rather than feeling like you need to implement that list on pain of eviction, I'd really rather that you consider the list in light of what you think you can work toward. If you feel that points are beyond your capacity to address or to accomplish, then we will discuss how to handle that. It may be that you will feel that you need to leave. I would rather that you did than for both of us to labor over a relationship that doesn't have any hope of being satisfying to us. If you DO want to work on this, and we can agree that the needs that I specified are attainable, then I am happy to work diligently with you to accomplish that, and to meet YOUR needs as well. It's important to me that you understand how important having my needs met in this relationship is, as I am sure it is for you. My needs are my needs; in the past, you've said that things are never enough for me, but in reality, my level of "enough" is what it is. So, going forward, please don't consider these points as "rules" or a "mandate", but do consider them as my true feelings about what I need in a relationship to make me happy."

???[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

TJ,
Yes it's inconsiderate. Maybe even deliberate. Why do you have to make an issue out of everything? 

I'm starting to feel claustrophobic just reading this. 

Go OUT with friends. You are acting like a needy child. 




TheJourneyBegins said:


> @Special Thanks! Truly appreciated.
> 
> I think I must be too sensitive to things, and I'm trying not to be.
> 
> My SO brought pizza home, and we were getting pieces out onto plates. I was going to sit down with her and eat, when her 13yr old comes in and says, "Hey, want to watch some TV?" A program I don't particularly like. She said, "Sure, that would be great!" and then went to sit next to him to watch. I thought, "What the hell, I don't HATE the program, so I'll sit with her and watch." Partway through, she gets up to get more to drink, and asks her son, "Can I get you anything? More pizza, drink?" He asks her for a drink. She goes into the kitchen. Not a word to me to ask if I want anything. So, I said, "Nah, I don't want anything either." She says, "Oh, did you want something? Is that your way of asking for me to get you something?"
> 
> Am I being too sensitive? It's obvious that she's just not thinking about me, but it just does hurt. I know it's her son, and she has to think of him first; and that's sort of hard when you're the husband.
> 
> I didn't say anything else, I STFU. She truly has no clue why I would be offended. I suppose maybe I shouldn't. I don't know anymore. One thing's for sure, I have been trying too hard.


----------



## Catherine602

TheJourneyBegins said:


> @Special Thanks! Truly appreciated.
> 
> I think I must be too sensitive to things, and I'm trying not to be.
> 
> My SO brought pizza home, and we were getting pieces out onto plates. I was going to sit down with her and eat, when her 13yr old comes in and says, "Hey, want to watch some TV?" A program I don't particularly like. She said, "Sure, that would be great!" and then went to sit next to him to watch. I thought, "What the hell, I don't HATE the program, so I'll sit with her and watch." Partway through, she gets up to get more to drink, and asks her son, "Can I get you anything? More pizza, drink?" He asks her for a drink. She goes into the kitchen. Not a word to me to ask if I want anything. So, I said, "Nah, I don't want anything either." She says, "Oh, did you want something? Is that your way of asking for me to get you something?"
> 
> Am I being too sensitive? It's obvious that she's just not thinking about me, but it just does hurt. I know it's her son, and she has to think of him first; and that's sort of hard when you're the husband.
> 
> I didn't say anything else, I STFU. She truly has no clue why I would be offended. I suppose maybe I shouldn't. I don't know anymore. One thing's for sure, I have been trying too hard.


Maybe. You may have sounded as if you were competing with her son for her attention. It would have been nice if she asked you too. 

But reframe things and think of it this way. She was in mother mode and probably feels you can fend for yourself or help her take care of the kid if necessary. Just for the time being. 

It's actually a good thing. She sees you as a capable man. Avoid any hint that you are one of her kids and need her on that level. 

You have adult needs that have nothing to do with bringing a drink to her kid or watching a show with him. . 

One proactive thing you can do is take time to do something independent when she comes home and goes into mother mode. Do something masterful and manly. Go the gym for an hour, engage in a hobby. 

You have to find a way to detach from her and decrease your anxiety. Don't be in her presence all of the time. It's like you are glued to her and won't let her move. 

Did you watch that TED video? 

It's hard because you like being around her but you need to be more independent and do things that don't involve her. That will give her space to be a mother and go to you to spread time. 

However, spending all of her time with her children is no good. You have to have time for each other. Otherwise, you don't really have a relationship. How much time - you have to work that out.


----------



## Catherine602

I didn't see MEM's post before I posted but he is dead on. It's funny how we both came to similar conclusions.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

@Catherine and @MEM

Your recent posts are correct. I am acting like a needy child. I guess I just am tired of her inconsiderate nature.

I'm an artist, an amateur radio operator, a dad, a flight instructor, a martial arts instructor, an avid reader, a computer online gamer (WoW), a vintage computer nerd, a severe weather observer, a language learning enthusiast and I work out at the gym regularly. I'm sure I can find things to do away from her. Thanks for taking me to task.


----------



## ocotillo

TheJourneyBegins said:


> My SO brought pizza home, and we were getting pieces out onto plates. I was going to sit down with her and eat, when her 13yr old comes in and says, "Hey, want to watch some TV?" A program I don't particularly like. She said, "Sure, that would be great!" and then went to sit next to him to watch. I thought, "What the hell, I don't HATE the program, so I'll sit with her and watch." Partway through, she gets up to get more to drink, and asks her son, "Can I get you anything? More pizza, drink?" He asks her for a drink. She goes into the kitchen. Not a word to me to ask if I want anything. So, I said, "Nah, I don't want anything either." She says, "Oh, did you want something? Is that your way of asking for me to get you something?"


How hard would it be for you to slip out of "Child mode" here and into "Adult mode?" How hard would it be for you to be the one who gets up first and ask the boy if he needs anything? (I'm assuming he's pretty young (?))


----------



## Cynthia

I also think you are obsessing over everything she does and picking it apart, to your own detriment. Get out of the house and do something without her. It sounds like your whole life revolves around her. I've read this whole thread, but don't remember if you mentioned this - Do you work out? If not, please get a workout routine, preferably outside the house. Do something for yourself that has nothing to do with her. Something healthy for your body and soul.

Edited to add:
I just saw the you do work out and you do have lots of hobbies. My question then is why are you so obsessed with her responses to everything?


----------



## Catherine602

TheJourneyBegins said:


> @Catherine and @MEM
> 
> Your recent posts are correct. I am acting like a needy child. I guess I just am tired of her inconsiderate nature.
> 
> I'm an artist, an amateur radio operator, a dad, a flight instructor, a martial arts instructor, an avid reader, a computer online gamer (WoW), a vintage computer nerd, a severe weather observer, a language learning enthusiast and I work out at the gym regularly. I'm sure I can find things to do away from her. Thanks for taking me to task.


You are also not a child by any means. With all of those interest and skills, you should have a lot more confidence. 

Everyone is inconsistent if you examine every little minute thing that they do. Look at the big picture. I'll bet you see less inconsistency than you do now. 

Her feelings for you are not inconstant even if she is in other ways. Reframe your interpretation and gain distance. It will not happen in a few days. It will be incremental changes over months. 

There will be some setbacks but if the general trajectory is up then you are good.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

As I read this thread, I am taken with the extent to which I've become a needy pile of jello. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the sound and deserved drubbing many of you have given me. That said, you have also offered some wonderful suggestions and examples, and I promise you they were not offered in vain.

I truly appreciate your making me feel accountable.....I'm feeling accountable to the group (which I really, really appreciate), and feeling, importantly, more and more accountable to myself. 

Octillo, I absolutely will get out of child mode. Pronto And as for the boy's age, he's 13, 5'10" tall and a basketball player.

CynthiaDe, I'm heading to work out later tonite.

MEM, your posts are incredibly helpful to me

Catherine, I'm watching the TED video right now.


----------



## mr hillbilly

TJB

I think you are doing your best and are being very brave. I'm not too different from you and my situation has a few parallels but I'm too chicken to post my story and ask for advice. Keep it up and follow the advice here...I think it's spot on.


----------



## Deejo

I do appreciate that you have the courage to post what is going on and your response to it.

We can most certainly keep doing this.

Or you can try something different. Let's face it, you truly have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Stop focusing on HER. Don't wonder what she's thinking, how she's feeling, or what the hell her motivation was for doing or not doing that thing that you now can't seem to get your mind off of.

Focus on YOU. Think about why you feel the way you do based upon an action, perception or response on her part.

Your response of "That's fine I didn't want anything ..." Classic NG passive aggression. Point of fact, HER response to your behavior was perfect. 

I've said this many times before, when it comes to try to kill your inner Nice Guy; if you fundamentally like who you are, how you behave, the choices you make, and the outcomes that result, then you should stop listening to anyone here. I'm not kidding.

The change in your posts that I would like to see, is much less of a focus on her, what she does, and how she behaves, and much more of a focus on you, and how you feel or respond.

The change here has to be you. Your change in turn can be the catalyst for hers. But we, nor you, can directly do a blessed thing about how she chooses to behave and what she is comfortable with.

You need to be the engine rather than the tail-pipe.

Monitor yourself and your feelings, rather than making it about her.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Deejo said:


> I do appreciate that you have the courage to post what is going on and your response to it.
> 
> We can most certainly keep doing this.
> 
> Or you can try something different. Let's face it, you truly have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
> 
> Stop focusing on HER. Don't wonder what she's thinking, how she's feeling, or what the hell her motivation was for doing or not doing that thing that you now can't seem to get your mind off of.
> 
> Focus on YOU. Think about why you feel the way you do based upon an action, perception or response on her part.
> 
> Your response of "That's fine I didn't want anything ..." Classic NG passive aggression. Point of fact, HER response to your behavior was perfect.
> 
> I've said this many times before, when it comes to try to kill your inner Nice Guy; if you fundamentally like who you are, how you behave, the choices you make, and the outcomes that result, then you should stop listening to anyone here. I'm not kidding.
> 
> The change in your posts that I would like to see, is much less of a focus on her, what she does, and how she behaves, and much more of a focus on you, and how you feel or respond.
> 
> The change here has to be you. Your change in turn can be the catalyst for hers. But we, nor you, can directly do a blessed thing about how she chooses to behave and what she is comfortable with.
> 
> You need to be the engine rather than the tail-pipe.
> 
> Monitor yourself and your feelings, rather than making it about her.


I really do like this post. And I agree with it.

I'm finding that my responses seem to be predicated on how I think she's viewing me, and this is TOTALLY wrong. Let me clarify; I respond to WIN the altercation. I feel like if I don't push back, and come out the clear winner, she'll keep browbeating me and ramping up her behavior. I feel like whenever she hits me with something particularly biting or dismissive, if I can't hit her back with something that shows I'm in control (and this is the antithesis of STFU), I'll look weak and she'll continue to escalate over time. STFU when she does this sort of thing feels like it doesn't allow me to defend my boundaries, and makes me look like I'll just sit there and take all the abuse she can throw at me.

I think that's why it's so hard for me to STFU, and to focus on my behavior independent of how she's acting. Because she has said in the past when I don't have anything to come back with, she sees it as an admission that she was right, and that I'm weak. When I've STFU in the past, I get "You don't even have a response, do you?"

I'm working SO hard on my reactions, but it's like there's a test at every turn. 

However, I'm going to look at things from the standpoint of working on ME and on MY actions, independent of her and her feelings and reactions. It's my reactions to what she does that counts, not what's going on inside her, as you said.


----------



## Catherine602

When she says something snide, that is just the time when you should STFU. 

You think not engaging in a verbal firefight is a sign of weakness but in the context of a general attitude of strength and confidence, it is actually not. 

Silence is actually a form of control. You don't slink away in fear. Keep doing what you are doing and be cool but polite towards her. Call her on it at an appropriate time. 

By answering her pettiness, she is employing a method that she knows well. She will win because she has had more practice than you.

Don't let her bait you. You decide the quality and direction of the discussion or no discussion. Less talk more decisive action. When you stop letting her bait you, she will probably escalate for a while. 

If you don't engage her, the behavior will no longer be effective and it will stop. Answer only if she gets disrespectful with a firm "don't go there"


----------



## MEM2020

TJ,
This is a sincere question. On an average day: 
- How many times does she ask you to do things for her or her kids? 
- How many things do you do for her without her even asking? 
- How many things are part of your standard routine, but she could reasonably be the one doing them? 

-----
Acts of service for a typical woman are comparable to sex for an average man. 

Watch how this works:
M2: Makes blthcy comment 
M1: Hey! (Giving her a puzzled look that means - why are you doing that?)
M2: Escalating 
M1: This isn't constructive (followed by silence)
At this point M2 stops. She knows that continuing means I will be totally silent and she will feel foolish. Worst case I will go out and restrict communication to text - til she apologizes. So she just doesn't do that anymore)

However, she may dig in and try to wait me out. 

An hour later:
M2: can you do X for me
M1: declines 

Now I have an endless amount of entertaining material for declining requests. All delivered with an even tone or an amused tone: 

Gosh you look just like, darn you could be the twin sister of the woman was just giving me a tone in the kitchen. Huh. 

I'm afraid that I am unlikely to perform that task in accordance with your high standards. And we both know how much I hate to disappoint. 

Why do you think it's ok to ask me to do something for you (long pause) given our most recent exchange? 

I'm afraid your platinum services card has been temporarily suspended. 

-------
The reason for this approach is simple. M2 is capable of being difficult and then arguing endlessly and exhaustingly that she did nothing wrong. I choose not to expend my energy that way. 

-------
Having a tense, lengthy discussion about her bad behavior during which she knows the entire time she was out of line, accomplishes nothing. Because at the end - after a bullshlt semi-apology, she fully expects me to resume being Captain Nice guy. 

This approach. Is highly effective, and consumes minimal emotional energy. 

QUOTE=TheJourneyBegins;7926314]I really do like this post. And I agree with it.

I'm finding that my responses seem to be predicated on how I think she's viewing me, and this is TOTALLY wrong. Let me clarify; I respond to WIN the altercation. I feel like if I don't push back, and come out the clear winner, she'll keep browbeating me and ramping up her behavior. I feel like whenever she hits me with something particularly biting or dismissive, if I can't hit her back with something that shows I'm in control (and this is the antithesis of STFU), I'll look weak and she'll continue to escalate over time. STFU when she does this sort of thing feels like it doesn't allow me to defend my boundaries, and makes me look like I'll just sit there and take all the abuse she can throw at me.

I think that's why it's so hard for me to STFU, and to focus on my behavior independent of how she's acting. Because she has said in the past when I don't have anything to come back with, she sees it as an admission that she was right, and that I'm weak. When I've STFU in the past, I get "You don't even have a response, do you?"

I'm working SO hard on my reactions, but it's like there's a test at every turn. 

However, I'm going to look at things from the standpoint of working on ME and on MY actions, independent of her and her feelings and reactions. It's my reactions to what she does that counts, not what's going on inside her, as you said.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jld

Great idea to use humor, MEM. I bet she ends up laughing at herself half the time.


----------



## MEM2020

Humor is always best and M2 has an excellent sense of humor. 

That said, if she gets hostile when I decline a request I smile and say: Dress warmly, weather forecast is for an intense cold front. 

And then I do a 180 lite. 

I do NOT do this over minor hiccups, her being unintentionally inconsiderate. I do this in response to unprovoked acts of aggression. 

And sometimes I ask: Did I do or not do something to cause THAT? (Meaning her bltchy behavior). If she tells me, and it's even somewhat reasonable I say - ok. Going forward I will make more effort to remember to do ...., and you can make more effort to be civilized in conveying your disappointment. 




jld said:


> Great idea to use humor, MEM. I bet she ends up laughing at herself half the time.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> And sometimes I ask: Did I do or not do something to cause THAT? (Meaning her bltchy behavior). If she tells me, and it's even somewhat reasonable I say - ok. Going forward I will make more effort to remember to do ...., and you can make more effort to be civilized in conveying your disappointment.


It's interesting to hear your accounts of life with your wife.

Dh just doesn't seem to react much to my outbursts. He doesn't take anything personally. I always apologize, though, which probably makes it easier for him.

You seem sensitive. I think if a man is sensitive, it is very good to react, as you do, with humor. It takes the intensity out, and gives the other person a chance to smooth things over.


----------



## Deejo

TheJourneyBegins said:


> I'm working SO hard on my reactions, but it's like there's a test at every turn.
> 
> However, I'm going to look at things from the standpoint of working on ME and on MY actions, independent of her and her feelings and reactions. It's my reactions to what she does that counts, not what's going on inside her, as you said.


Well, you have summed up a very large part of your problem. You're always playing defense.

For the record, a raised eye-brow, a head shake, a deadpan stare or a dismissive smirk is also a reaction.

All of those responses 'communicate' to your significant other. But what she knows of you, is that she can handily, and easily put you back on your heels, seemingly at will. Because ... you feel compelled to address it, fix it, resolve it, be understood, make a breakthrough ... etc. You need to talk.

What you need to do, is find a way to redirect that need. Because it's hampering you, not helping you. 

Have you taken a look at the thread about fitness or sh!t tests?


----------



## always_alone

TheJourneyBegins said:


> I feel like whenever she hits me with something particularly biting or dismissive, if I can't hit her back with something that shows I'm in control (and this is the antithesis of STFU), I'll look weak and she'll continue to escalate over time. STFU when she does this sort of thing feels like it doesn't allow me to defend my boundaries, and makes me look like I'll just sit there and take all the abuse she can throw at me.
> 
> I think that's why it's so hard for me to STFU, and to focus on my behavior independent of how she's acting. Because she has said in the past when I don't have anything to come back with, she sees it as an admission that she was right, and that I'm weak. When I've STFU in the past, I get "You don't even have a response, do you?"


Sometimes being utterly dumbfounded is the most appropriate reaction there is. 

I mean, what other response is she expecting? And what's the prize you're competing for?

Sometimes there really just isn't anything at all to say, and there's no weakness in acknowledging that.


----------



## always_alone

Deejo said:


> Well, you have summed up a very large part of your problem. You're always playing defense.


Of course, he is. From the sounds of it, he's under a constant barrage.

I'm reminded of a woman I know who is an utter control freak. She was constantly sniping at her now ex. He totally fed and exacerbated the problem. She pushed his buttons, and he pushed right back. And they escalated and escalated, until they eventually split.

With her defense was the only strategy. Attack would inevitably make things worse, as would snark, smirks, or dismissive gestures, which were also interpreted as attack. What would work was raised eyebrow incredulity, and straightforward calm refusal to engage.

I don't know if OP's wife is at all the same way, but this woman's lashing out was entirely fueled by her own defensiveness and deep fear of vulnerability.


----------



## MEM2020

This was M2 at her worst. She would escalate in a crazy manner if she perceived me getting agitated. Didn't matter what words I used. When I was calm, and barraged her with raised eyebrows and puzzled smiles she would quickly become sane again. 


QUOTE=always_alone;7929522]Of course, he is. From the sounds of it, he's under a constant barrage.

I'm reminded of a woman I know who is an utter control freak. She was constantly sniping at her now ex. He totally fed and exacerbated the problem. She pushed his buttons, and he pushed right back. And they escalated and escalated, until they eventually split.

With her defense was the only strategy. Attack would inevitably make things worse, as would snark, smirks, or dismissive gestures, which were also interpreted as attack. What would work was raised eyebrow incredulity, and straightforward calm refusal to engage.

I don't know if OP's wife is at all the same way, but this woman's lashing out was entirely fueled by her own defensiveness and deep fear of vulnerability.[/QUOTE]


----------



## always_alone

Deejo said:


> But what she knows of you, is that she can handily, and easily put you back on your heels, seemingly at will. Because ... you feel compelled to address it, fix it, resolve it, be understood, make a breakthrough ... etc. You need to talk.



I was thinking about this a bit more, and it strikes me that this is exactly what's wrong with the captain / first officer setup.

Because it's the captain's *duty* to do all of this. He must steer the ship to safety or go down with it. He thinks he has complete authority over the crew to help him, but he absolutely does not. The first officer can mutiny, abandon ship, be a smart-ass and fail to comply, or just do a terrible job, and the captain has to fix it, resolve it, control the outcome.

Whereas in a relationship, you have zero authority over the other person, and it's not reasonable or possible to fix them or the way they relate to you.


----------



## MEM2020

Always,
If a partner actually cares about you they place a premium on you being highly engaged. The extreme end of being unengaged is parting ways. 

When you link engagement to their bad behavior, you tend to get some positive shaping. 

That said, a LOT of bad partner behavior is caused by claustrophobia, not sadism. The warmer partner crowds them and they lash out to push the other person away. 



always_alone said:


> I was thinking about this a bit more, and it strikes me that this is exactly what's wrong with the captain / first officer setup.
> 
> Because it's the captain's *duty* to do all of this. He must steer the ship to safety or go down with it. He thinks he has complete authority over the crew to help him, but he absolutely does not. The first officer can mutiny, abandon ship, be a smart-ass and fail to comply, or just do a terrible job, and the captain has to fix it, resolve it, control the outcome.
> 
> Whereas in a relationship, you have zero authority over the other person, and it's not reasonable or possible to fix them or text way they relate to you.


----------



## always_alone

MEM11363 said:


> Always,
> If a partner actually cares about you they place a premium on you being highly engaged. The extreme end of being unengaged is parting ways.
> 
> When you link engagement to their bad behavior, you tend to get some positive shaping.
> 
> That said, a LOT of bad partner behavior is caused by claustrophobia, not sadism. The warmer partner crowds them and they lash out to push the other person away.


I doubt very much of bad behaviour is outright sadism. A lot I would think, is fueled entirely by insecurity, fear of vulnerability, lack of trust, reactions to a partner's button pushing and so on.

This does not mean you can't affect how they treat you --especially if you're actively pushing buttons -- but it does mean that the onus is on them to do the work and to decide what they are willing to do for someone they care about.

The woman I described earlier really did care, but her number one priority is self-protection. He probably could have prolonged the relationship by squashing his retaliatory need to push her buttons in kind, but even so, I doubt much shaping was ever possible. Her controlling behaviours are *how* she cares because there is no way that she's going to let down her guard and actually let someone in. That's her pattern, and it has played out more than once. At this point, she doesn't date, and pretty much avoids relationships, but still controls a couple of her exes.


----------



## happy as a clam

TheJourneyBegins said:


> ...I'm working SO hard on my reactions, but it's like there's a test at every turn...
> 
> However, I'm going to look at things from the standpoint of working on ME and on MY actions, independent of her and her feelings and reactions. It's my reactions to what she does that counts, not what's going on inside her, as you said.


That's exactly right Journey. And when you get to that point where it's second nature to focus on YOUR reactions, not hers, I think the answer to the question will become crystal clear to you -- "Is this a relationship that is working, onethat I even want to *be* in?" Maybe it's yes, maybe it's no. Only you will know.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

Code:







always_alone said:


> Of course, he is. From the sounds of it, he's under a constant barrage.
> 
> I'm reminded of a woman I know who is an utter control freak. She was constantly sniping at her now ex. He totally fed and exacerbated the problem. She pushed his buttons, and he pushed right back. And they escalated and escalated, until they eventually split.
> 
> With her defense was the only strategy. Attack would inevitably make things worse, as would snark, smirks, or dismissive gestures, which were also interpreted as attack. What would work was raised eyebrow incredulity, and straightforward calm refusal to engage.
> 
> I don't know if OP's wife is at all the same way, but this woman's lashing out was entirely fueled by her own defensiveness and deep fear of vulnerability.


My SO does sound very similar, in particular because snark, smirks, and even incredulity are often interpreted as attack.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

MEM11363 said:


> TJ,
> This is a sincere question. On an average day:
> - How many times does she ask you to do things for her or her kids?
> - How many things do you do for her without her even asking?
> - How many things are part of your standard routine, but she could reasonably be the one doing them?


1. Easily 5 or so
2. About 7
3. All of them


----------



## Deejo

TheJourneyBegins said:


> I'm finding that my responses seem to be predicated on how I think she's viewing me, and this is TOTALLY wrong.


I clipped this next bit from the Fitness Test thread, because it is the piece that made me think of your circumstances, and quite possibly why your SO consistently says that she doesn't understand you, despite your thinking that you are an open book.

This is from an exchange with my ex-wife, nearly four years ago, while she was trying to make a go of things with her affair partner. The circumstances were that both he and I were in attendance at one of my kids birthday party. The important part is what's bolded.



Deejo said:


> I couldn't resist, so I said to ex just this afternoon; "Your boy did well at the party."
> 
> Her: "He did. So did you."
> 
> Me: "Well that was a given."
> 
> Her:*"He keeps trying to do what he thinks is the right thing, or what I want him to do.*
> 
> Me: "That isn't going to work over the long term."
> 
> Her: *"No it isn't. Because I don't know who he is if he keeps trying to be who he thinks he's supposed to be."*


Moral of the story, you need to behave and conduct yourself in a manner that YOU define. That makes it clear to others, who you are and what you are about. You can choose to tailor those responses based upon knowing someone elses pathology ... but not EVER if it costs you respect or your own self esteem. 

People, in particular many females will often try and take this advice and turn it around and make it about the partner and their problems.

I don't particularly care about them or their problems. They aren't here. You are. Their problems are just that ... theirs. 

If dealing with their problems means you live your life walking on egg-shells than guess what? You now have a problem too.

Decide the kind of man you want to be. Decide how you intend to behave. Decide what you want. Then align those things.


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

"Decide the kind of man you want to be. Decide how you intend to behave. Decide what you want. Then align those things."

Bingo. That's exactly what I'm striving for. Succinct and inspiring.


----------



## mr hillbilly

How are things going TJB?


----------



## TheJourneyBegins

I'll post an update shortly. Interesting times, not too bad, not too good. However, I'm improving.


----------



## BookOfJob

Deejo said:


> .....Have you taken a look at the thread about fitness or sh!t tests?


TJB, let me turn that dial to zero beat what he meant;

Fitness Tests

A "must read", I am surprised it's not listed as sticky in this forum.


----------

