# Please make sense of this argument



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

My H and I have been reading "His needs, her needs" and trying to put our marriage back together. Speaking for myself, my love tank is on empty. We've discussed alot of things along the way, (and still have much to discuss) one in particular, the Policy of Joint Agreement: Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.

Here is yesterday's argument.

We took the kids to the video store so they could rent games. My daughter got a game for her DSI and my son a PS2 game.
We get in the car and my son says "I call the tv in the living room when we get home". Immediately, my H says "No, you can play it on the TV in the family room" (much smaller tv). So then I ask my H, why? was he planning to go home and watch tv again? (He'd spent most of the weekend watching tv in the living room trying to rest his back, which had been hurting for a few days) He said no, he wasn't going to watch TV. 

Well, I knew I wasn't and my daughter had homework to do and she had rented a DSI game so she didn't even complain when my son called the TV. I saw no reason why my son playing his game in the living room was a problem. When my H said he wasn't going to be using the TV I then asked him again why it was a problem. He said he may go home and read. So then I said, you're going to read in the living room and prohibit anyone from using the tv in there? Then he said "whatever".

We had been planning to go out to dinner after the video store but needless to say we ended up going through a drive thru and taking home fast food.

We didn't speak to each other til bedtime when another argument ensued about the previous argument. In this argument when I pointed out that my side of it was him making the decision without my input, which is totally the wrong way to handle it according to the book, he said I was partly to blame because I "didn't redirect the conversation" when he chose to make the decision independently. What? Also, the only explanation I got from him when I asked his reasoning behind the decision was "How about just because it was my preference." Also, several times he said "I'll take the blame, I'm always the one who's wrong", dripping with attitude.

When I pointed out that if I were to prohibit his daughter from doing something, let's say...go bowling with friends, just because "it was my preference", all hell would break loose. He said there is no similarity between the two.

So today is my daughter's Birthday and we are supposed to go to dinner tonight. Jut like any other time we try to do something as a family or a holiday comes up, it is ruined with needless arguing. I am so tired of it.

Thanks for letting me vent. Does anyone have any input?


----------



## momof6girls (Jan 11, 2010)

sounds like the book is not working you may need a mediator some one in the middle. sounds like your at your end of the rope and really when at that point it is hard to see all sides of the issue but with that said i am sure the same is true for hubby.

what i am saying it is hard to change and even if you want to you fall back into the same patterns. then again you have to want to and it has to be double sided for it to work.

he may want it to work but he may think going in he will show you you are wrong...


----------



## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

Firstly, are all of the children "yours" together? Or are some "His" and some "Hers" children? 

At any rate, you shouldn't have asked your husband "why" in front of the kids. It's embarassing. You should have just let the decision stand and then talked with him about it later on. Was it really that important? I mean, it's not as if the boy couldn't play the game at all. 

I think the root of your husband's upset is he probably feels like you never back him up and you have to question every decision he makes no matter how minor. He doesn't feel like you are on his side.


----------



## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I agree, that particular book doesn't seem to be working for you. The reason the two of you are fighting over little bitty things is because neither of you feel love towards each other. I got a lot more from reading "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. People who are "in love" rarely fight over small things. It took me many years to figure that out.

Hope you guys can put aside your differences and enjoy a birthday dinner tonight.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

themrs said:


> Firstly, are all of the children "yours" together? Or are some "His" and some "Hers" children?
> 
> Both children are mine that live with us. He has 3 that are pretty much grown and the youngest will turn 18 in a couple weeks. His don't live with us but have visited.
> 
> ...


I was under the impression that the goal was to be on the same side. Our decisions should be mutually agreed upon as per the Policy of Joint Agreement, no?


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

827Aug said:


> I agree, that particular book doesn't seem to be working for you. The reason the two of you are fighting over little bitty things is because neither of you feel love towards each other. I got a lot more from reading "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. People who are "in love" rarely fight over small things. It took me many years to figure that out.
> 
> Hope you guys can put aside your differences and enjoy a birthday dinner tonight.


Thanks 827Aug, I will have to check out that book.


----------



## BeanCounterWife (Mar 17, 2010)

> I was under the impression that the goal was to be on the same side. Our decisions should be mutually agreed upon as per the Policy of Joint Agreement, no?


The goal is to be on the same side, but undermining your H's authority in front of the kids is a pretty big issue, IMO.

First of all, it was a disrespectful judgement for you to jump down your H's throat and accuse him of wanting to watch TV. Your child may have wanted the livingroom TV, but he probably would have been happy to play his game on any TV. You should have just left it at that. 

Perhaps next time you are in this situation, you should use POJA to negotiate your time TOGETHER. In reality, that was your problem, not the fact that your Son couldn't use the livingroom TV. You were pissed because you assumed that your H wanted to spend the evening watching TV.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

BeanCounterWife said:


> Perhaps next time you are in this situation, you should use POJA to negotiate your time TOGETHER. In reality, that was your problem, not the fact that your Son couldn't use the livingroom TV. You were pissed because you assumed that your H wanted to spend the evening watching TV.


I appreciate your taking the time to read my thread and comment. I'm going to have to disagree and say that whether or not my H wanted to spend the evening watching TV had nothing to do with it. Really, it didn't. 

What I am pissed about is this:

1. He made the decision without me, knowing and agreeing that we are trying to come to a compromise as far as parenting the children is concerned. 

2. He had no good reason for not wanting the child to play the game in the living room. IMO, the statement "Just because it is my preference" leaves me no avenue to understand him as a person. On top of this, his reason kept changing. To me, this shows no attempt at trying to get along and keep the peace.

3. It doesn't matter how I bring something up, I could do it lovingly, non-accusatory, calmly, in a fit of rage, starting out with "I felt unloved when you did xyz", whatever-he ALWAYS jumps on the defense. And when he does, he's not hearing me. He takes on the victim role.


----------



## momof6girls (Jan 11, 2010)

butterfly i can back you on this i can at my house we do this dance all the time... and yes it is his side that he wants to be the man and make decisions like the tv and not be questioned in his house his castle... ok and yes not matter how you handle it may seem your doing it nicely but you have to know his side.

ok... on the way home they got video games.. daughter had home work and son claimed tv... your hubby said use the little one. maybe at that point you could of let it rest for the time and do dinner and during dinner maybe ask what his plans for the living room were that the son could not use the big tv? 

yes.. working as a team is the best but we all know things will happen at times like this and if the other spouse not around and it is last min question one or other will answer... my gram use to say you have to pick your wars.. and was this a battle worth ruining a dinner out and family time?

ok... marriage is a balancing act and some times it will tip one way or the other the key is to balance most of the time to make it even but will not always be the case.

i would ask myself a main question.. why am i or why do i want to stay married?


----------



## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

BK - Can he make any decision without you? I mean, is that really a decision that needs a joint agreement? I don't think him having the kid play the game on the tv warrents a joint agreement. 

What I mean is, you have to pick and choose your battles. The arguement could have been avoided all together if you just accepted what your husband said. His reasons really don't matter because this wasn't a life or death situation. I think you should have just let it go this time.


----------



## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

ButterflyKisses said:


> He takes on the victim role.


I noticed that in your post also. Does he do that a lot when you guys have a disagreement? My estranged husband used to do that; it annoyed me to death! I seem to remember even starting a thread on how he enjoyed playing the martyr. My therapist told me is was just part of his narcissistic personality rearing its ugly head.


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

ButterflyKisses said:


> Does anyone have any input?


I understand you are very plugged into the issues you are trying to improve, so anything that does come up will be highlighted for you.

I think it is great that your h is reading the book with you. Rather than expect him to do it the way you would do it, or would like him to do it (not during commercials), it would have probably had a more positive impact to your marriage overall if you had walked in, smiled and said "Cool, you're reading the book!" Rather than put him on the defensive, it might make him feel more a part of the "marriage team" to be encouraged by his efforts, even if you don't feel they are "up to par." And it might lead to a positive discussion on what he just read, etc.

Taking a step back and not responding to your husband while still driving in the car would have probably been a better way to go. Simply say, "let's talk about that when we get home." When you arrived home, ask your husband if he has an overall issue with playing video games in that room (it's disruptive to everyone else because it's in the center of the house, etc. or what the reason is he would prefer he goes in the other room) 

At that point, you can decide as a couple whether you make a house rule of no video games in that room. By including him "How should we handle the video game thing going forward?", you are not putting him on the defense so you might engage him and get a more positive response. 

The only time we use our family room for video games is if there is a party going on and we set up rock band or DDR, because our family room is an open area so it's less disruptive to others if you are playing a game, to do so in your room, so I suppose there are different views on this.

I do think your husband 'slipped' by making that statement in the car w/o talking to you first, but responding in the moment was also not on par with deciding things together. Instead of calling him out and responding to what he is saying, "Let's talk about this when we get home" would be a way to stay in line with what you are trying to implement from the book and at the same time gently remind him that he "jumped the gun."


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

themrs said:


> BK - Can he make any decision without you? I mean, is that really a decision that needs a joint agreement? I don't think him having the kid play the game on the tv warrents a joint agreement.
> 
> What I mean is, you have to pick and choose your battles. The arguement could have been avoided all together if you just accepted what your husband said. His reasons really don't matter because this wasn't a life or death situation. I think you should have just let it go this time.


Yes, he can make decisions without me. I hear you when you say "The argument could have been avoided altogether if I had just accepted what my H said". I totally agree. The thing is, this approach doesn't enable us to consider each others happiness as equally important. I could also say that the argument could have been avoided if H had just let the child use the TV since he had no real reason for saying no in the first place. So in fact, what it comes down to then is which spouse should be the giver and which the taker? Hence the need for the POJA. 


To you, it's just an issue of a child with a video game having a preference for the larger TV. To me, it is an ongoing issue with my H over the way the children are handled and dealt with and the way it's been handled, practically from day 1. Letting things go didn't fix it. 

Example: the kitchen cupboard is broken-my H: 'one of the kids must have done it'. The dog is limping-one of the kids must have done it. There's something wet on the floor-one of the kids must have done it. There's a long list of issues. So yeah, I feel like his reasons do matter. 

I'd like to know why he feels the need to blame the kids for everything that goes wrong. I'd like to know why he doesn't see where it may be detrimental to their well-being to constantly be accused of something without even being asked and even further, why he doesn't feel the need to apologize when it turns out that the puddle on the floor was the result of the dog having an accident. I'd like to know why he feels the need to deny the child his TV preference without having a reason for doing so.

So yeah, I could let him treat me and the kids however he sees fit and keep my mouth shut and avoid every argument, but I'm in this marriage to get something out of it too.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

Swedish,

Thanks for your post, I will reply to it shortly.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Even if it made no immediate sense to you, why did it matter if your son had to use another TV to play his video game? If you just had to challenge your husband, wouldn't it have been better to do so in private? You basically put him on the spot in front of the kids. Either he stands his ground and retains a little respect (even if he's wrong) or he looks like a whimp and you look his boss. You don't countermand another leader's order unless it's absolutely necessary. You alienate your fellow leader and you confuse the subordinates and diminish him in their eyes. A parent is a leadership position. If you talked to him in private, you might have found him more agreeable to your position. He could have countermanded or altered his own order without looking like a dweeb. 
You can be a partner or you can be a boss, but you can't be both. I kicked my last boss to the curb after years of being similarly humiliated in front of my kids. Now she's in complete control...of nothing.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Even if it made no immediate sense to you, why did it matter if your son had to use another TV to play his video game? If you just had to challenge your husband, wouldn't it have been better to do so in private? You basically put him on the spot in front of the kids. Either he stands his ground and retains a little respect (even if he's wrong) or he looks like a whimp and you look his boss. You don't countermand another leader's order unless it's absolutely necessary. You alienate your fellow leader and you confuse the subordinates and diminish him in their eyes. A parent is a leadership position. If you talked to him in private, you might have found him more agreeable to your position. He could have countermanded or altered his own order without looking like a dweeb.
> You can be a partner or you can be a boss, but you can't be both. I kicked my last boss to the curb after years of being similarly humiliated in front of my kids. Now she's in complete control...of nothing.


I agree that I should have waited until we got home and taken him aside to question his call. Funny thing is, once we were alone and discussing it, not once did he say anything remotely close to feeling like I undermined his authority with the children. 

The only conclusion that I can draw from this is that it wasn't an issue for him. Had it been an issue in your marriage, wouldn't you have said so? To me, if you are determined to get issues resolved you would bring it out in the open and deal with it, not keep changing your story and trying to confuse the situation. Isn't that the point of talking things out? I think the issue for him plainly was that I disagreed with his decision in the first place. Judging from how the past 10 years have gone, I am pretty confident that waiting til we were alone would have resulted with the same outcome. (although I still understand I handled it wrong).


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

BK,

The biggest roadblock you appear to have is your level of resentment at this point and him not stepping up to the plate when you put yourself out there. I can understand it if you are feeling 'done' with giving and feeling you need him to step it up.

My response to you was in the lines of moving things forward, because as much as you feel it's his turn to drive the ship, you only have control over what you do and how you respond.

I'm not sure how much fight you have left in you (meaning fight for the marriage), but even if you can bring yourself to stay with the program, so to speak, and try on your end, maybe you will see different results from him and your outlook will slowly change for the better?


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Why would you want to make a big deal out of what is essentially nothing? Clearly you feel disrespected by this, or you have an incredibly controlling nature, but why? 

Truthfully, if I was your husband I'd think, "this f*cking woman won't give me a break" and resent the hell of out you. It is exhausting to be brow beaten over trivial decisions. How is he supposed to know what decisions he can make and which ones he can't? Is EVERY decision a joint one? 

You are the problem in this particular example. Not him.


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

@seeking sanity

This issue may seem like nothing on the surface, but if the underlying issue is that BK feels her husband is annoyed by her kids and is constantly harping on them, she has vocalized her concerns, they both agreed to work on their marriage...she is looking for positive signs and this was not a positive exchange, no matter how trivial.

If he said 'Fine by me as long as I can play first game with you!' she probably would have smiled from ear to ear.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

BK~

Let's put aside for the moment "what the argument was about" because I think this issue here is not "Please give me your opinion if I was right or wrong about the big TV" but moreso "We are trying to do this Joint Agreement thing and I don't get how to do it in real life." 


So let me walk you through this step-by-step. 

Policy of Joint Agreement means that both spouses agree to do nothing until both are enthusiastic. In order to actually practice Joint Agreement, the two of you actually have to agree to do it!:lol: So the first place to start is "Do we, as a couple, agree to give this Joint Agreement thing a try?" 

Next, let's look at the argument. Son said, "I call the big TV" and hubby said, "No you can use the smaller TV" and did not reach agreement with you before he declared that. IDEALLY Joint Agreement would have responded like this: "Well I personally would prefer that you use the small TV. Mom do you agree?" This way he is expressing both his preference AND checking for agreement with you before the final decree. At that point, you would have to be secure with yourself to be assertive enough to answer "No I don't agree but I will work it out with your Dad and then we'll tell you the decision when we get home," or something like that. That kind of answer both preserves your husband's dignity AND actually says that you two will work on it until you both agree (thus stamping out controlling, resentment, victimhood, etc.). 

Now let's review how it really went. Son said "I call the big TV" and your hubby says, "Nope. You can have the small TV" without agreeing with you. Right there you have a couple options from which to pick, and the option you choose is to challenge his authority with the children in front of them. So #1, you two might want to have a Joint Agreement talk RIGHT NOW about the topic of parental authority, and here's why. My Dear Hubby and I have a mutual agreement that we will back the other parent in front of the kids even if we disagree. Then if we do disagree, we will take the other aside, discuss our reasoning, reach an agreement (in private) and then the parent who made the rule is the one who changes the rule. That way, there is never that loss of respect in front of the kids. If dad says no, mom ALWAYS also says no, and that way the kids do not play one parent against the other. 

This is important because you say that you want Joint Agreement but that also would imply that you see your husband as an equal individual, completely capable of making up his own mind and having good reasons. As you argued with him, you mentioned that one of his reasons was that it was his preference and that's a legitimate reason--yet you dismissed it almost out-of-hand. The fact is that your husband has just as much reason and say just because he prefers it that way as YOU DO...and so that has to be recognized not only by him toward you, but also by you toward him. 

So #2 I would suggest that you apologize to him for challenging his parental authority in front of the children. (Don't forget the Joint Agreement talk about always backing each other up in front of them, and going privately if you disagree.) Next, #3 I will say that it did sound like he pulled the "victim" card, but there are two easy ways to deal with that. First, and best way--since you can't change him and make him remember to do Joint Agreement with you...and since you CAN change you...just let him know that you see some of the wisdom of the Joint Agreement concept and from this point forward you're going to let him jointly decide with you. In other words, emphasize YOUR side of it: that you will no longer just make decisions without him but check with him before you do things. The second option is just to name it: "It sounds to me like you're playing the victim here rather than being personally responsible for your own, adult choices, and just so you know that will not work with me anymore. So I'd appreciate if you stopped that." Just call it what it is. 

Now another Joint Agreement Dear Hubby and I have is that he runs the house and I work, so he doesn't need to run every little household decision past me (like what grocery to get). If one of you feels like that SHOULD have been a Joint Agreement and wasn't, the way to approach that is not "HEY! You didn't even bother to ask me my opinion!" in front of the kids. When it occurs, I would suggest something more like, "Oh it was my understanding we were doing that Joint Agreement thing. Before we set this in concrete may I ask if we could discuss it together and reach an agreement?" See? It's a respectful request. You want him to respect you and your opinions and thoughts and preferences...so respect him and his opinions and thoughts and preferences.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> Why would you want to make a big deal out of what is essentially nothing? Clearly you feel disrespected by this, or you have an incredibly controlling nature, but why?
> 
> Truthfully, if I was your husband I'd think, "this f*cking woman won't give me a break" and resent the hell of out you. It is exhausting to be brow beaten over trivial decisions. How is he supposed to know what decisions he can make and which ones he can't? Is EVERY decision a joint one?
> 
> You are the problem in this particular example. Not him.


Wow. Thanks for your rather harsh opinion, I guess you're entitled to it.

I could go into great detail about what's exhausting, but I'm just gonna leave it alone.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

swedish said:


> @seeking sanity
> 
> This issue may seem like nothing on the surface, but if the underlying issue is that BK feels her husband is annoyed by her kids and is constantly harping on them, she has vocalized her concerns, they both agreed to work on their marriage...she is looking for positive signs and this was not a positive exchange, no matter how trivial.
> 
> If he said 'Fine by me as long as I can play first game with you!' she probably would have smiled from ear to ear.


Swedish, you hit the nail on the head and I couldn't have said it better. Thank you.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> BK~
> 
> Let's put aside for the moment "what the argument was about" because I think this issue here is not "Please give me your opinion if I was right or wrong about the big TV" but moreso "We are trying to do this Joint Agreement thing and I don't get how to do it in real life."
> 
> ...


Everything you said makes perfect sense and really would put an end to alot of the bickering. Thank you. 

As far as my dismissing his preference as a legitimate reason, I really feel as if him saying 'just because' is hiding behind the real issue of doing it for spite. I really feel as if he resents my kids. I have asked him repeatedly if this is the case and he denies it, but his actions in alot of situations strongly show otherwise. 

Back when his kids were younger and would stay with us on weekends and through the summer, there were alot of fights between us because miraculously the impatient attitude he had with my kids would disappear when HIS kids got here. There were also numerous fights because he would let his kids 'slide' on things but yet my kids would have to tow the line.

Also, with my kids he pretty much has the old attitude that 'kids should be seen and not heard' and also loves to use the line 'just because I said so'. Interesting enough, as per the book we are now reading, it recommends that an explanation of some sort would be more beneficial than just throwing your weight around or bullying kids to do what you want.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

swedish said:


> BK,
> 
> The biggest roadblock you appear to have is your level of resentment at this point and him not stepping up to the plate when you put yourself out there. I can understand it if you are feeling 'done' with giving and feeling you need him to step it up.
> 
> ...


My level of resentment is big...HUGE. I feel like I have really been trying and sacrificing for so many years. And I know it sounds like I am tooting my own horn but I don't pretend to know everything or be perfect and I am capable of holding myself accountable for my own actions. 

When I read the HN,HN book I thought, wow this can really work and it's really not so difficult. What you said in your other post about me looking for a positive sign from him, you are so right. Just when I think we may be making progress, something like this fight happens and I lose the hope I had of fixing us.

At this point, I don't even know why I'm still here.


----------



## 2rr (Feb 21, 2010)

sorry but you make no sense. there is saying, if you want to beat the dog you will find the stick. thats what it seems like. what about taking kids to the park, making them to do the chores, read the book. Games should be reward and never on big TV.
I do not know his motive but even if by accident he was correct.


----------



## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm sorry for some of the replies you got on this thread. They just sound a little... unfair, to say the least.

I could read between the lines early on before you even explicitly said how you are feeling about the way he treats your kids. I can totally understand how you would feel about some unilateral, unreasonable decision of his that you know darn well wouldn't have happened if it had to do with _his_ kids.

I think go with Swedish's advice.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Believe me, I let her know it bugged me repeatedly and your husband probably has let you know in his own way, too. Making a man look or feel small in front of his kids is a huge deal whether it's spelled out in those terms or not. In general, making a man feel or look small is counterproductive if your goal is to hang on to him.

"Immediately, my H says "No, you can play it on the TV in the family room" (much smaller tv). So then I ask my H, why? was he planning to go home and watch tv again? (He'd spent most of the weekend watching tv in the living room trying to rest his back, which had been hurting for a few days) He said no, he wasn't going to watch TV."

Notice two things in your post. #1. This wasn't your issue and there was no reason for you to interject yourself in it. This was a matter between a father and his children. Either he is "dad" or he isn't. If he's dad and a responsible adult, he should have the authority to make the decision he made and expect that you either stay out of it or back his play. If he's an abusive father and your kids need to be protected from him, divorce him and get an order of protection. Second issue is your comment about your husband's amount of TV time. The amount of time he had spent watching TV was irrelevant. Your question, "Are you going to go home and watch TV, AGAIN?" was not a serious question but more of an accusation. Even though this was not your "beer", your husband tried to respond to your questions. His rather curt answers should have told you the matter wasn't something he wished to further discuss. You kept on, making it clear that anything he said would only be met with another objection. I'm not surprised this ended in a fight and bad feelings. From what you've posted, this man was treated with serial disrespect. The matter-of-fact way it happened makes me suspect this occurs frequently. This is going to sound harsh but I can't think of another way of putting it. Your husband expects to be treated with respect simply because he's an adult and he exists. He shouldn't have to explain it, shouldn't have to ask for it, and he shouldn't have to instruct another adult on proper manners and respect. You expect to be treated with respect, why would you not assume he does, too? 
I am guessing you give your children directions frequently and I'm also guessing you don't always ask permission from your husband before doing so. You're the mom and giving kids instructions is part of your job description. He's "dad" and has the same authority.
Would you really prefer a mousey husband who won't make a decision or feels he has to ask you permission to perform basic functions?


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> I'm sorry for some of the replies you got on this thread. They just sound a little... unfair, to say the least.
> 
> I could read between the lines early on before you even explicitly said how you are feeling about the way he treats your kids. I can totally understand how you would feel about some unilateral, unreasonable decision of his that you know darn well wouldn't have happened if it had to do with _his_ kids.
> 
> I think go with Swedish's advice.


I agree and thank you for your understanding.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> If he's dad and a responsible adult, he should have the authority to make the decision he made and expect that you either stay out of it or back his play. If he's an abusive father and your kids need to be protected from him, divorce him and get an order of protection.
> 
> Your husband expects to be treated with respect simply because he's an adult and he exists. He shouldn't have to explain it, shouldn't have to ask for it, and he shouldn't have to instruct another adult on proper manners and respect. You expect to be treated with respect, why would you not assume he does, too?
> 
> Would you really prefer a mousey husband who won't make a decision or feels he has to ask you permission to perform basic functions?


I wouldn't call my H an abusive father, but at the same time yes, I would say that my kids need to be protected from him.

In the last several years he has done alot to them that I feel affects them negatively. I guess in a way you could say this may fall under the abuse category under a certain level.

This behavior from him has gone on somewhat for several years but really peaked a few years back and here's why. 

He has 3 kids from a previous marriage. His son really wasn't an issue because he turned 18 early on and was basically busy starting his own life. However, his middle child decided that merging our families was too much for her to handle so she completely cut my H from her life and refused to visit anymore. 

From that day on, the youngest daughter was all my H had left who still came for visitation every other weekend and a few weeks through the summer. My H then went into 'don't rock the boat' mode where she was concerned. Every decision he made with her was based on keeping her happy so that she wouldn't do as her sister did and cut him out of her life. 

Meanwhile, my kids were very much seeing the fact that they still had to tow the line while their step sister had a totally different way of being handled. I begged, I pleaded, I cried, I fought to get him to see what he was doing. There had to be another way to handle the situation that wasn't at the expense of my kids. 

From that day on I realized that the only one who had my kids' best interest in mind was me.

You mention that I don't have respect for my H. I have a certain level of respect for him as a person. I do feel like to some degree respect should be earned. When I see that he is not willing to treat all the kids fairly, it's hard to respect his judgement. When I see that the amount of discipline he dishes out to them and total disregard to their feelings and mine completely outweigh his regard for their emotional well being, I no longer feel confident that he is capable of handling this responsibility in an acceptable manner. 

Allowing my son to play his game on the big TV would have been a good start in showing me he actually cares about them. Just like what Swedish said in her post, If he had said to my son "That's fine, as long as I get first game with you!", I would have been grinning from ear to ear. Instead, he denied the boy his request when there really wasn't even a good reason for it other than to throw around his authority. 

I think kids need a little more from a father than just someone to crack the whip. What child would not feel resentful of a step father who says 'you will do as I say' but is not there for them in any other capacity? And what mother would stand by and keep her mouth shut about it?

When he married me, he married the whole package. The HN,HN book I'm reading validates my feelings that when you do something against my kids, you do it against me. And that is the whole underlying issue to this argument.


----------



## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

827Aug said:


> People who are "in love" rarely fight over small things. It took me many years to figure that out.
> .


I don't know but I would say that my husband loves me more than I do. Or at least he shows it more than me. He is the one who starts fights more over little things. Mostly about our kids behavior. This is not because he doesn't love me, but this is the way he is. He has been like this all his life. With his parents, friends. He has a little temper, and always tells me. "Please don't pay attention to what I say. I didn't mean it. You know me.'' If you hear me say something that you don't like just ignore me.''
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  He has changed a little bit for good since we have been married.

I have seen people who are not in love, and do not argue with one-another. A person who never raised his voice with anybody, is going to be the same and when he gets married. Only if something bad happens in his life. My brother is very quite. I never heard him raised his voice to our parents, or even with us, his sisters, or never have seem him fight with anybody over anything, even when he was a teen. I love him.
Now he is married to an wonderful girl. And he never fights with her either. 
The love changes a person, but still not completely. 
If somebody has a bad temper and if you think that his love for you will turn him into a sheep, this is not going to happen. I don't believe it.


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

ButterflyKisses said:


> My level of resentment is big...HUGE. I feel like I have really been trying and sacrificing for so many years. And I know it sounds like I am tooting my own horn but I don't pretend to know everything or be perfect and I am capable of holding myself accountable for my own actions.
> 
> When I read the HN,HN book I thought, wow this can really work and it's really not so difficult. What you said in your other post about me looking for a positive sign from him, you are so right. Just when I think we may be making progress, something like this fight happens and I lose the hope I had of fixing us.
> 
> At this point, I don't even know why I'm still here.


Blended families can be a challenge! I brought 3 kids into my 2nd marriage, my h was never married, no kids. My kids were a major handful when my h came into the picture...and I think I had this fantasy that as stepdad, he would form the same bond and unconditional love that I have for them.

I cannot tell you how grateful I am that he has been such a positive influence in their lives, he really has, but I really needed to take a step back and let him define his role in our family. He cares for them and would adopt them in a minute should anything happen to their dad, but he also believes his role is not and should not be 'dad'. 

The challenge comes in when the children live with you full-time and it's your h's full-time home, too, how to keep the peace so your kids and/or your h are not feeling like they are not part of the family...and why does this have to fall on me to be referee?!

Well, I think as mom, you (and I) are the only one in the mix that has a deep love for everyone and wants more than anything for them all to live as a happy, peaceful family...I think that alone is most important to a wife and mother.

I am sure it is different for your h with his kids because, he has an unconditional love and when you only see your kids a few weekends a month, you want to have a nice visit. I would guess if his kids lived with you full-time, that his patience would wane with them as well, at times. It would probably help you to not compare how he was with his kids when they visited.

What are your expectations of him as far as your kids go? Does he do anything 1 on 1 with them? Would he take your son fishing or go-cart racing, etc? If you have some tangible ideas in mind, you might talk to your h about them.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

swedish said:


> Blended families can be a challenge! I brought 3 kids into my 2nd marriage, my h was never married, no kids. My kids were a major handful when my h came into the picture...and I think I had this fantasy that as stepdad, he would form the same bond and unconditional love that I have for them.
> 
> I cannot tell you how grateful I am that he has been such a positive influence in their lives, he really has, but I really needed to take a step back and let him define his role in our family. He cares for them and would adopt them in a minute should anything happen to their dad, but he also believes his role is not and should not be 'dad'.
> 
> ...


I don't expect my H to have the same unconditional love and bond with them as I do. I understand that it's just not possible, they aren't his blood. I do expect fairness between all the kids, enthusiasm in being the role, and involvement to name a few.

It probably would help me to not compare how he was with his kids when they visited. I can also say it would help me to just remove myself and my kids from the situation and be done with it. Other than I would be saddened by knowing what 'could have been' with applying just a little understanding and effort.

You know, my daughter comes in my room every night at bedtime and gives me a hug and kiss goodnight or I go in her room and initiate it. My son is a teen so with him, not so much because he grumbles about it, but it still doesn't stop me from initiating. My H will tell her goodnight and he loves her, he will tell my son goodnight, although on a lot of occasions he has never even bothered to look away from the tv or his phone to even acknowledge they were going to bed. 

My daughter was a year old when we met so my H is all she has known for a father figure, my son was 3 so it's pretty much the same way for him. Yet, in 10 years I can count on 1 hand the amount of times my H and kids have ever hugged. 

As far as doing one on one things with them, he took my son along paintballing once with him and his son. He has taken my son with him when he was doing some work for a friend, my daughter also. I guess in that area I don't really have room to complain. Other areas though, I feel are lacking.


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

ButterflyKisses said:


> I can also say it would help me to just remove myself and my kids from the situation and be done with it. Other than I would be saddened by knowing what 'could have been' with applying just a little understanding and effort.


Just hearing how young your kids were when you married your h and that he does tell them he loves them, I am sure it would have a pretty big impact on them if you split up. The day to day irritations would go away for you, but splittng up will be anything but easy. I really hope you are able to make some progress in moving your marriage forward.


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

BK - Sorry if I came off as harsh. When I see posts that I perceive as small problems it triggers me. Having dealt with big problems, I envy people who have the small ones. Mostly because once upon a time I had those same small resentments, etc. And now having gone through infidelity, separation, years of being lied to, and am now trying to reconcile, I'd give my left nut to go back to when it was about little things.

Anyway, that's my baggage I was projecting.

I'd simply suggest that trying to letting go of some of your resentments and appreciating your life a bit more may be the easier path. The other way always leads to misery - whether it's divorce, cheating, or a life lived in anger and pain. 

He probably has a lot of complicated emotions in him that he is incapable of communicating. (Remember he's at a biological disadvantage in communication. Perhaps you could negotiate via arm wrestling?  ) A man who feels loved, respected, gets regular sex and feels cared for is generally pretty easy to be around.


----------



## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

ButterflyKisses said:


> I don't expect my H to have the same unconditional love and bond with them as I do. I understand that it's just not possible, they aren't his blood. I do expect fairness between all the kids, enthusiasm in being the role, and involvement to name a few.
> 
> It probably would help me to not compare how he was with his kids when they visited. I can also say it would help me to just remove myself and my kids from the situation and be done with it. Other than I would be saddened by knowing what 'could have been' with applying just a little understanding and effort.
> 
> ...


I think I see things more from your H's POV because I'm a stepmom to a 6 year old boy. I've been married to his father since he was 11 months old, but we still haven't bonded like I have with my own children. I don't give him hugs goodnight, but I will say goodnight to him. I don't really initiate affection with him because I think it's uncomfortable for both of us. 

I'm patient with my relationship with my SS and I hope to see it grow with respect on both sides for the rest of my life, but I don't ever see us having a mother/son relationship and I'm fine with that. I care about him a lot and I wish the best for him, but I don't feel like I'm his mother. 

I'm rambling, but I think you should just be patient with your H as far as the kids are concerned. It takes a long time for a blended family to work out the kinks.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> BK - Sorry if I came off as harsh. When I see posts that I perceive as small problems it triggers me. Having dealt with big problems, I envy people who have the small ones. Mostly because once upon a time I had those same small resentments, etc. And now having gone through infidelity, separation, years of being lied to, and am now trying to reconcile, I'd give my left nut to go back to when it was about little things.
> 
> Anyway, that's my baggage I was projecting.
> 
> ...


It's ok, I understand. I know this forum is full of people with bigger problems than I have, but I also know my small problems will only get bigger if they're not nipped in the bud before it gets to that point. Then, I too will find myself posting in the infidelity and divorce sections. I'm already considering divorce.

I understand he's at a disadvantage in the communication department. I just wish he would let me help him get things out in the open. If we could get to some serious conversation we could start to move forward, but when he turns everything around, changes the subject, clouds the issue and automatically jumps on the defense it's next to impossible.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

themrs said:


> I think I see things more from your H's POV because I'm a stepmom to a 6 year old boy. I've been married to his father since he was 11 months old, but we still haven't bonded like I have with my own children. I don't give him hugs goodnight, but I will say goodnight to him. I don't really initiate affection with him because I think it's uncomfortable for both of us.
> 
> I'm patient with my relationship with my SS and I hope to see it grow with respect on both sides for the rest of my life, but I don't ever see us having a mother/son relationship and I'm fine with that. I care about him a lot and I wish the best for him, but I don't feel like I'm his mother.
> 
> I'm rambling, but I think you should just be patient with your H as far as the kids are concerned. It takes a long time for a blended family to work out the kinks.


Does your step son live with you? 
Is his mother in his life at all?

My step daughter in law has a step dad that she thinks the world of. She will tell you with a quickness that she is a daddy's girl and gets along better with him than her own mother.

I'm not asking for a miracle, just a little family unity and some closeness.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

swedish said:


> Just hearing how young your kids were when you married your h and that he does tell them he loves them, I am sure it would have a pretty big impact on them if you split up. The day to day irritations would go away for you, but splittng up will be anything but easy. I really hope you are able to make some progress in moving your marriage forward.


I know, and I've thought about all that alot. The other side of that is sometimes putting kids through divorce is oftentimes better in the long run than staying in an unhappy environment


----------



## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I haven't read the book, but I have to imagine even with all the issues you said about making the decisions about parenting that this would become an issue.

Maybe that is the problem... minor decision that really don't matter in the larger scheme of things became "you didn't consult me" arguments so now everyone thinks that EVERY parenting decision must be negotiated and agreed upon. This is a recipe for disaster. 

Kids need guidance 24 hours a day. I can't believe that while your husband is at work you call him every time a decision needs to be made.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You've had your entire life with your kids. Your husband hasn't. Your decisions would necessarily look different. If he catches grief over even insignificant issues when he attempts to parent "your" kids, he won't be enthusiastic about being their parent. Unless he's an abuser, your kids are in no real danger. If he were a child abuser, I'm guessing you wouldn't have married him. If he's not a perfect parent, they won't necessarily end up in prison, therapy, or on Oprah. They'll survive. Sooner or later, they will move out and you'll be stuck with your imperfect husband and he'll be stuck with an imperfect wife, perhaps for several decades. The kids are going to quickly shrug off watching TV in another room, but you and your husband will be carrying the weight of a damaged relationship for decades unless y'all find a way to respect and accept each other completely, warts and all.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

Chris Taylor said:


> I haven't read the book, but I have to imagine even with all the issues you said about making the decisions about parenting that this would become an issue.
> 
> Maybe that is the problem... minor decision that really don't matter in the larger scheme of things became "you didn't consult me" arguments so now everyone thinks that EVERY parenting decision must be negotiated and agreed upon. This is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Kids need guidance 24 hours a day. I can't believe that while your husband is at work you call him every time a decision needs to be made.



No, the intention of the POJA was not to have to call my H every time a decision has to be made.

Below is a paragraph taken from the POJA.


In marriage, your interests and your spouses interests should be considered simultaneously. One of you should not suffer for the benefit of the other, even willingly, because when either of you suffer, one is gaining at the other's expense. If you both care about each other, you will not let the other suffer so that you can have what you want. When you are willing to let the other sacrifice for you, you are momentarily lapsing into a state of selfishness that must somehow be corrected before damage is done. The Policy of Joint Agreement provides that correction.


My H knows where I stand on parenting the children and I know where he stands. We don't agree. One of the issues that I have with him is that he is so quick to spit out the word 'no' before even fully taking the request into consideration. I believe this has to do with it being the easier approach for him.
Example: If he tells the kids they can't make snow cones, he doesn't have to deal with staying on them to clean up the mess.

In the case of this argument, H made the decision without me so I was the spouse who was forced to make the sacrifice since I saw nothing wrong with son using the big TV and it would have meant alot to me to see H being considerate to son.

Had H used the POJA we could have maybe come to the agreement that son use the big TV for a couple of hours and then switch to smaller tv. Something we both could have been happy with.

I think the POJA is designed to be implemented in the general raising of the kids and also to anticipate the kids behavior and agreeing on how to handle it when the subjects arise.

In this case, and given the fact that we both were present, I see no reason why it could not have been negotiated.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> You've had your entire life with your kids. Your husband hasn't. Your decisions would necessarily look different. If he catches grief over even insignificant issues when he attempts to parent "your" kids, he won't be enthusiastic about being their parent. Unless he's an abuser, your kids are in no real danger. If he were a child abuser, I'm guessing you wouldn't have married him. If he's not a perfect parent, they won't necessarily end up in prison, therapy, or on Oprah. They'll survive. Sooner or later, they will move out and you'll be stuck with your imperfect husband and he'll be stuck with an imperfect wife, perhaps for several decades. The kids are going to quickly shrug off watching TV in another room, but you and your husband will be carrying the weight of a damaged relationship for decades unless y'all find a way to respect and accept each other completely, warts and all.


Well, with his less than adequate attempts to parent my children and inability to compromise with me, I am not very enthusiastic about being his wife. 

Now, if he sits down and comes to a mutual agreement with me that we both can be happy with, that would eliminate his 'catching grief', which would eliminate him not feeling enthusiastic about parenting my children, which would in turn eliminate alot of arguments and hurt feelings. One problem solved.

I'm not asking him to be a perfect parent, I'm not one of those myself. What I'm asking for is to come to an agreement that we can both be happy with.


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Are you willing to divorce him over this?


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> Are you willing to divorce him over this?


You know, I am at the point where I think leaving him will be the only solution. If I leave, it will either result in being the motivation that he needs to be proactive in the marriage and help me fix us or it won't and I will see that I am better off getting out of a marriage that I'm the only one that cares about fixing anyway.

Just to make it clear though, when you ask if I am willing to divorce him "over this", this is just one of our problems, so no, not just over this. There are other issues.

You know, the other day he made the comment to me that he doesn't think I'm as serious about leaving as I think I am.:scratchhead: I think that pretty well tells me he doesn't see the extent of things.


----------



## henrietta (Sep 9, 2010)

You cannot challenge your husband in front of the kids. 

You need more than a book for help. Counseling helps if he will go. Don't stop when it gets better, taper off to every month or so, but keep going.


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

I understand there are a number of problems.

What I've noticed is that women allow grievances to build up, they work on trying to resolve them through "communication" or some such, get to the point they get numb to their spouse, then spring divorce/separation on them (or have an affair as an escape). Divorce Busters calls it a walk away wife. 

From the man's point of view, he hears complaining and makes some effort to placate his wife, but never really figures out she might actually leave over it, until she's mostly out the door. And then it is too late.

She feels she's exhausted every avenue, he feels like it's a surprise because he never understood how serious the gripes were to her. Neither are right because men and women communicate/process/understand differently. 

Given above, I suggest to you the best thing that you can do right now is to plainly say, "I am unhappy, and at times I've considered divorcing you. I love you and want this to work, but I am losing patience and love for you, and before it gets to the point I am totally numb, I want you know how serious this is."

He'll either snap to attention, or tell you he's unhappy too. Either way it will force something to happen without it being as dramatic as you actually leaving him.

Do it now before all your patience and love is exhausted and it's too late. Men need direct communication.


----------



## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

ButterflyKisses said:


> No, the intention of the POJA was not to have to call my H every time a decision has to be made.
> 
> Below is a paragraph taken from the POJA.
> 
> ...


I can't agree with you on this. The POJA may be designed for "the general raising of the kids" but can't be used in every decision. It's just not feasible. You are talking about negotiations over a TV when (a) there was another that could be used with no issue and (b) it's a friggin TV!!! 

There are so many other issues to deal with (and I think underlying this issue with you is a whole host of others that need to be dealt with). 

I realize that this is an ongoing issue but tackle the big ones first. You'd be surprised how the little ones either seem less important or iron themselves out.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> I understand there are a number of problems.
> 
> What I've noticed is that women allow grievances to build up, they work on trying to resolve them through "communication" or some such, get to the point they get numb to their spouse, then spring divorce/separation on them (or have an affair as an escape). Divorce Busters calls it a walk away wife.
> 
> ...


I have said damn near those exact same words to him. His response was he isn't happy either (lack of sex-I can't do it without the emotional connection) I explained to him that I can't pretend to get along in the bedroom if we can't get along out of the bedroom. 

I suppose maybe he doesn't think I'm serious because I've said it more than once and I'm still here. I still love him but I've started to numb. What happens if I wake up tomorrow and I'm completely numb?


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

ButterflyKisses said:


> I have said damn near those exact same words to him. His response was he isn't happy either (lack of sex-I can't do it without the emotional connection) I explained to him that I can't pretend to get along in the bedroom if we can't get along out of the bedroom.


That explains a lot. A man that isn't getting regular sex is not motivated to help his woman. It's a death spiral. He gets rejected, feels tremendous hurt, which manifests as anger. She get hurt by his anger, and further withdraws. Repeat.



> I suppose maybe he doesn't think I'm serious because I've said it more than once and I'm still here. I still love him but I've started to numb. What happens if I wake up tomorrow and I'm completely numb?


What will happen is you'll cheat, if opportunity presents itself, or leave. 

Focusing on how he is failing you isn't going to solve anything. You don't control him. You can either suck it up and become a wonderful loving wife, which may get the changes you want from him because he's motivated to change, or you can let the resentment build until you divorce. By focusing on him, you are just building a case for the latter. 

I'd encourage you to get past the right/wrong thinking in all of this. It doesn't serve your happiness. Decide if you have the fortitude to be a loving, wonderful wife for the next 3 months, meet his needs with a pure heart and see what happens, or tell him you want a divorce in straight language. (I basically told him, doesn't count. Men are not women. We don't get nuance.)


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> That explains a lot. A man that isn't getting regular sex is not motivated to help his woman. It's a death spiral. He gets rejected, feels tremendous hurt, which manifests as anger. She get hurt by his anger, and further withdraws. Repeat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have only read one of your threads so I don't know where you stand right now but the one I read was about you wanting to reconcile with your wife. 

If you are still in the place where you do, or even if you're not, let me ask you this. If your W would/would have agreed to try to reconcile but wasn't in a hurry to be intimate with you again right away, would you have accepted under those terms?

I don't know if I have it in me to be everything he needs sexually, under the circumstances. Even if I could somehow force myself, would pretending be acceptable? If so, I don't understand that.

Truth be known, I have already tried that route, not for 3 months because I withdrew again when my feelings stopped being taken into consideration. I did see an attempt on his part to change but it didn't last long. Also, it seemed like the reason his attempt to change slowed down was because when the sex started to become more frequent it was like that's all he thought about. He would get sex at night and then grope me all day or throw out sexual innuendos all day, and I was like, where's the rest of our relationship?


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

henrietta said:


> You cannot challenge your husband in front of the kids.
> 
> You need more than a book for help. Counseling helps if he will go. Don't stop when it gets better, taper off to every month or so, but keep going.


Counseling would require that H take an hour and a half off of work every week. He wasn't too thrilled about that.


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

My advice is more based on what I've learned by going through all this crap, probably what I would have changed/realized if I had a time machine.

You're in a tough spot and I am empathetic to it. Clearly you are in pain and have unmet needs. I'm trying to help you understand that your measurement of being supported and his are vastly different. Neither of you seem like bad people or particularly hurtful people. It's the classic dynamic of men/women in marriage. Everyone loses, and as a person who has experienced that loss, it saddens me. 

The other thing you could try is a carrot and stick approach. When he does something considerate reward him with sex. And make sure he KNOWS that is what the reward is for. "Honest, I really appreciate that you did x. I want to show you how much." 

That may work. 

Is this the hill you want to die on? Finding love, companionship, reorienting children to a new relationship, being a single parent, and all the hardship attached to that, dating, being alone, is all bloody hard. Is it worth it?


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"Now, if he sits down and comes to a mutual agreement with me that we both can be happy with, that would eliminate his 'catching grief', which would eliminate him not feeling enthusiastic about parenting my children, which would in turn eliminate alot of arguments and hurt feelings. One problem solved."

I think even the most controlling spouse on the planet could make it work if their partner was willing to do only those things that the controller agreed to. Are you also willing to discuss all your movements and decisions with him and only do those things that he agrees are acceptable? How about setting a very minimum standard of acceptable conduct that you both can live with and then just respect each other's right to make independent adult decisions?


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> Is this the hill you want to die on? Finding love, companionship, reorienting children to a new relationship, being a single parent, and all the hardship attached to that, dating, being alone, is all bloody hard. Is it worth it?


I honestly don't know. This is hard too. Knowing that I'm not getting any younger and feeling like my life is being wasted while I sort it all out.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> "Now, if he sits down and comes to a mutual agreement with me that we both can be happy with, that would eliminate his 'catching grief', which would eliminate him not feeling enthusiastic about parenting my children, which would in turn eliminate alot of arguments and hurt feelings. One problem solved."
> 
> I think even the most controlling spouse on the planet could make it work if their partner was willing to do only those things that the controller agreed to. Are you also willing to discuss all your movements and decisions with him and only do those things that he agrees are acceptable? How about setting a very minimum standard of acceptable conduct that you both can live with and then just respect each other's right to make independent adult decisions?


Look, I don't see it as controlling. 

I read a book that was suggested on this site, it seems reasonable to me.

Aside from the book, I think I should have some say in how my children are raised since I did give birth to them.

I don't know if you read all my posts on this thread about there being double standards where the kids are concerned and them always getting blamed for things but you seem to think this is acceptable behavior. 

As long as they're not getting physically abused it's all good?

It's not detrimental to a child's well being to be made to feel like they're annoying and in the way and not as good as my H's kids? 

We will just have to agree to disagree on that because I stand by my feelings on the subject.


----------



## Greentea (Aug 28, 2010)

I read all the threads here, seems nobody can talk you out of divorce. you've made up your mind, to you,the only way to solve your problem is getting divorced. if you don't do it, you will fell that life is indebted to you. people are always desirous of a change, they always hope there may be something better.
Good luck!


----------



## taylor78 (Sep 4, 2010)

Although reading books and adapting new methods could be useful for your marriage, it's far more complicated than adapting theories. 

Marriage should be understanding and supporting to each other. It seems that you want to have control over the marriage. Questioning your husband's opinion or thought in front of the kids could be really insulting for men.

When I read your thread, I could sense a lot of anger and disappointment. Marriage isn't about pride or sex. If you start understanding and listening to your husband, I'm sure he'll do the same for you.


----------



## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

The real issue here, IMO is parenting and the fact that he doesn't treat your kids with fairness. In fact he kinda treats them as a nuisance. Your kids probably see what's happening and they will likely grow angry with him for treating them so unfairly and they will resent you for allowing it. If he's not happy having your kids around then i don't know how you can be happy with him. You need to call him out on this (in private) and let him know it's a deal-breaker.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

Bluemoon7 said:


> The real issue here, IMO is parenting and the fact that he doesn't treat your kids with fairness. In fact he kinda treats them as a nuisance. Your kids probably see what's happening and they will likely grow angry with him for treating them so unfairly and they will resent you for allowing it. If he's not happy having your kids around then i don't know how you can be happy with him. You need to call him out on this (in private) and let him know it's a deal-breaker.


Bluemoon7

Exactly. Thank you so much for understanding.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

One has to wonder how a man can be an acceptable stepfather for 9 years and become suddenly unfit, allegedly bordering on abusive. I would think such an undesirable character flaw would have manifested itself long ago. If he has traditional visitation arrangements, he's only seeing his daughter maybe one weekend every couple weeks, so that's not an issue for 12 days out of 14, at best. I'm guessing the parenting issues aren't the primary areas of dissatisfaction between these two. 

" I think I should have some say in how my children are raised since I did give birth to them." 

I thought the complaint was that he was indifferent and uninvolved with her kids. According to this statement, she doesn't feel she has enough control over child rearing. The two complaints are incongruent. If she's like most mothers, she not only has "some say" in the raising of her kids, she has the vast majority of "say". The womb argument suggests that no father should ever expect equal parenting rights due to the laws of biology. I don't know if H ever heard this logic but I would find it insulting if I had been raising a child from infancy, especially, by choice as a stepparent. 
My son was three when I married his mom. She and I have long since divorced but my son and I never did. I love him as much as my natural kids and the parent with the womb gave me custody of him when he was 8. The one who contributed the sperm killed himself and prior to doing so never gave my son so much as a phone call. My only claim is that I've just loved him and had his back for 27 years. When he says "Dad", we both know who he's talking about.


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

BK I wish you well. I'm unsubscribing from this thread because I feel like you are only interested in the advice that supports your point of view. 

unbelievable makes an excellent point. Good luck.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> One has to wonder how a man can be an acceptable stepfather for 9 years and become suddenly unfit, allegedly bordering on abusive. I would think such an undesirable character flaw would have manifested itself long ago. If he has traditional visitation arrangements, he's only seeing his daughter maybe one weekend every couple weeks, so that's not an issue for 12 days out of 14, at best. I'm guessing the parenting issues aren't the primary areas of dissatisfaction between these two.
> 
> " I think I should have some say in how my children are raised since I did give birth to them."
> 
> ...


It is impossible to put 10 years of marriage into one thread. 

The way he treated my kids became a problem early on in the marriage. I remember one time in particular, when my daughter was about 18 months old I noticed that her eyes seemed like they were crossing and she started holding her head in a different way when she was looking at something intently. That was when I found out she had strabismus. One night out of the blue my husband started referring to her as 'crooked eye', saying things like 'Come here crooked eye, so I can change your diaper'. I came unglued.

I can pull more incidents out of the last 10 years, but no, it doesn't seem like it was as full blown as what it has been in the last few years.

My complaint IS that he is indifferent and uninvolved with the kids. Is it impossible that it may be more than one thing?

Also, I believe I have already stated in this thread that the parenting issue is only a part of our marriage problems.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> BK I wish you well. I'm unsubscribing from this thread because I feel like you are only interested in the advice that supports your point of view.
> 
> unbelievable makes an excellent point. Good luck.


Thank you SS for taking the time to involve yourself in my problems.

I am very sorry If I don't have the desire to jump right into having sex with my husband. I am very consumed with alot of hurt that I don't know what to do with.


----------



## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

based on everything you have said (and probably a whole lot more you haven't), I'd say that without an attempt at counseling (and his commitment to the counseling and marriage), you might as well move on.


----------



## lynst (Aug 13, 2010)

Well, for one thing, men should NOT say what goes, and we blindly do it because they are our "leader." Actually, when a man states what he wants, and gives no reason for it, expecting us as their wives to just do it "because he said so." Well, that is outright rude, and they are not learning or trying to take our opinions into consideration. If they can't give a reason behind what they do, then I am inclined to believe that there is no reason for it other than selfishness on his part. I have been a Christian since I was a teenager, and unfortunately, the stigma most men have been taught in churches is that they are the "boss," and their wife is supposed to "obey" them like a submissive puppy. Well, that might sound great coming from the pulpit, and you will hear alot of men say "Amen" to it, but when it comes down to having a happy marriage, that just won't cut it. And it is no wonder that statistics say that two-thirds to three-fourths of divorces that are filed are filed by women. God never intended men to treat their wives with such rudeness, inconsideration, and thoughtlessness.


----------



## lynst (Aug 13, 2010)

ButterflyKisses said:


> I have said damn near those exact same words to him. His response was he isn't happy either (lack of sex-I can't do it without the emotional connection) I explained to him that I can't pretend to get along in the bedroom if we can't get along out of the bedroom.
> 
> I suppose maybe he doesn't think I'm serious because I've said it more than once and I'm still here. I still love him but I've started to numb. What happens if I wake up tomorrow and I'm completely numb?


Most of the time, if I don't want to have sex with my husband, it is because of his rudeness, inconsideration, or outright ignoring me. If a man wants sex, he should treat his wife right first. Why is it that we woman have to be the ones to always do "our wifely duty" regardless or whether they do theirs or not. They want to treat us like dirty emotionally, but then they don't want us to push them away physically. It is time that men step up and take the blame. They push their wife away because they can't or will not learn to meet our needs and love us like they should.


----------



## 4sure (Aug 8, 2010)

I hate to say it but he seems like a normal dad. You say he is uninvolved, but earlier said he takes them places. So it's confusion.

Sometimes it seems men are hard on boys. Remember one day your son will be a man and he will need to be equipped to be a man. The dad is the best person to teach him this. What seems harsh to we women seems right to a man because your son will be in the world out on his own and no one is going to craddle him or hand him anything.
The dad will exercise his authority to the preteen boy in ways that seem harsh to you.(the tv) He basically is letting the boy know he is the big dog. This seems immature to we women. It isn't. When your sons testosterone(16-17) kicks in he will try to challenge the authority, if boundries have been set by dad he won't win. Husband can't allow him to win. If he does I guarantee you your son will be running your home, and you do not want that.

I have a 24yo son he was 10 when I remarried. There were times I thought my h was harsh. He wouldn't allow video games except on the weekend and only then in the evening. Son had to make good grades, work around the house etc.. There were words between the two of us. My son would fuss like any kid, but went by the rules. My son moved out at 18. He has a great job, buying his own things: car, truck, home. He learned to be a man to make it in the world and is successful at a young age because my husband pushed him, and never allowed him to quit. He has tremendous respect for stepdad, and sd for him.
If you do leave do not move in with a guy or remarry until kids are grown and gone. The problems will be worse if you do.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

lynst said:


> Well, for one thing, men should NOT say what goes, and we blindly do it because they are our "leader." Actually, when a man states what he wants, and gives no reason for it, expecting us as their wives to just do it "because he said so." Well, that is outright rude, and they are not learning or trying to take our opinions into consideration. If they can't give a reason behind what they do, then I am inclined to believe that there is no reason for it other than selfishness on his part. I have been a Christian since I was a teenager, and unfortunately, the stigma most men have been taught in churches is that they are the "boss," and their wife is supposed to "obey" them like a submissive puppy. Well, that might sound great coming from the pulpit, and you will hear alot of men say "Amen" to it, but when it comes down to having a happy marriage, that just won't cut it. And it is no wonder that statistics say that two-thirds to three-fourths of divorces that are filed are filed by women. God never intended men to treat their wives with such rudeness, inconsideration, and thoughtlessness.


That is exactly my line of thinking. Why am I suppose to accept the answer 'just because it's my preference'?

Yet I am being told on here that my H had a reasonable and perfectly acceptable answer and I'm just supposed to not question it. I can't seem to think of one single thing that I would do or say that didn't have some kind of motivation or reasoning behind it, even if I had to take some time to think about it.

If something I did bothered my H and he questioned me about it and I would come off with some half baked 'just because it's my preference' answer, I highly doubt it would fly.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

4sure said:


> I hate to say it but he seems like a normal dad. You say he is uninvolved, but earlier said he takes them places. So it's confusion.
> 
> Sometimes it seems men are hard on boys. Remember one day your son will be a man and he will need to be equipped to be a man. The dad is the best person to teach him this. What seems harsh to we women seems right to a man because your son will be in the world out on his own and no one is going to craddle him or hand him anything.
> The dad will exercise his authority to the preteen boy in ways that seem harsh to you.(the tv) He basically is letting the boy know he is the big dog. This seems immature to we women. It isn't. When your sons testosterone(16-17) kicks in he will try to challenge the authority, if boundries have been set by dad he won't win. Husband can't allow him to win. If he does I guarantee you your son will be running your home, and you do not want that.
> ...


He is both uninvolved AND he takes them places. He is not 100% uninvolved, but he is uninvolved enough that it becomes a problem. There are other aspects of their lives to be involved in besides taking them places.

You say he is letting the boy know he is the BIG DOG? Funny, I have read several parenting books, been to counseling on parenting and attended parenting seminars and never once have I heard that a man must treat his male offspring unfairly in order to make sure he knows that he is the big dog. You set rules, yes..you set boundaries, you instill values, etc. but this...this is a new one on me.

When my son decides he is ready to challenge my H's authority he will have every right to express his dislike for having been treated so unfairly.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

4S,
Huge difference between setting a high bar (a good thing) and being selfish. Huge difference between asserting your rights as a parent in a fair and rational manner and saying "because I said so". 

A good message is to consistently stick with "you need to do your homework before tv/video games and if you need help let me know as I am glad to help you" 

A really really bad message is: I can read anywhere in the house but am choosing to read in the one room with the big tv. Oh and while I do so, you cannot play your game. This is called being either a jerk or a bully. 

I agree that BK should handle her disputes in private. This one for instance was not urgent and was far better handled one on one when they arrived at home. Her PUBLICLY taking the kids side amplifies the tension a lot. 

As for their sexual breakdown I have no opinion. If her idea of a healthy sex life is very different than his, than he is never really happy with that piece of the marriage and likely his unhappiness spills over into the rest of the marriage. 

If however he can't grasp how destructive it is to engage in frequent groping and ignoring BK other than for sex, than she is likely better off without him. Absent a full video of their life it is not possible to tell how much blame rests with each. 

A different way to put that is it is hard to understand how high a priority she makes him when he is behaving well. If he is consistently a low priority in comparison to the kids and the rest of her life then his behavior while not excusable is not surprising. 




4sure said:


> I hate to say it but he seems like a normal dad. You say he is uninvolved, but earlier said he takes them places. So it's confusion.
> 
> Sometimes it seems men are hard on boys. Remember one day your son will be a man and he will need to be equipped to be a man. The dad is the best person to teach him this. What seems harsh to we women seems right to a man because your son will be in the world out on his own and no one is going to craddle him or hand him anything.
> The dad will exercise his authority to the preteen boy in ways that seem harsh to you.(the tv) He basically is letting the boy know he is the big dog. This seems immature to we women. It isn't. When your sons testosterone(16-17) kicks in he will try to challenge the authority, if boundries have been set by dad he won't win. Husband can't allow him to win. If he does I guarantee you your son will be running your home, and you do not want that.
> ...


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> 4S,
> Huge difference between setting a high bar (a good thing) and being selfish. Huge difference between asserting your rights as a parent in a fair and rational manner and saying "because I said so".
> 
> A good message is to consistently stick with "you need to do your homework before tv/video games and if you need help let me know as I am glad to help you"
> ...


This is pretty much how I feel about the argument right now.
I know I was wrong for handling it in front of the kids, that fault lies with me. I feel he was wrong for, as you put it, being a bully/jerk, and also for the way he handled the private argument that took place later on. 

So, now I am left with wondering about the reason why he feels the need to treat my kids the way he does, and why he continues to do it when he knows how it makes me feel. 

Many have said how they feel this argument was trivial and petty, but I feel it's a pretty big thing, especially since it's been ongoing. How can I remain married to a man who, for some unknown reason, treats my kids this way.

Mem, when he is behaving well, I make him a priority. The thing is, his behaving well only lasts a few days at best. I want to have a good sex life, but one that I can be comfortable with also. It's hard to do that when I feel used and disconnected from my H.

Thanks for your input.


----------



## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

ButterflyKisses said:


> You say he is letting the boy know he is the BIG DOG? Funny, I have read several parenting books, been to counseling on parenting and attended parenting seminars and never once have I heard that a man must treat his male offspring unfairly in order to make sure he knows that he is the big dog. You set rules, yes..you set boundaries, you instill values, etc. but this...this is a new one on me.
> 
> When my son decides he is ready to challenge my H's authority he will have every right to express his dislike for having been treated so unfairly.


I think boys need more their father's authority than girls.
My father in law has been really ''soft'' with his boys all his life. He never hit them, or verbally abused, and was not rude with them at all. And now, his kids are really loud, rude with their parents. They do everything they want, two of them didn't finish even the high school. He has been a very respectful professor all his life for everybody, but he never had the respect that he deserved by his own kids.:scratchhead:


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

Deb* said:


> I think boys need more their father's authority than girls.
> My father in law has been really ''soft'' with his boys all his life. He never hit them, or verbally abused, and was not rude with them at all. And now, his kids are really loud, rude with their parents. They do everything they want, two of them didn't finish even the high school. He has been a very respectful professor all his life for everybody, but he never had the respect that he deserved by his own kids.:scratchhead:


So, you're suggesting that hitting them, verbally abusing them and being rude to them would have resulted in him getting their respect?


----------



## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

ButterflyKisses said:


> So, you're suggesting that hitting them, verbally abusing them and being rude to them would have resulted in him getting their respect?


No abuse, but some authority. That means, is a man, father figure, in the house, who needs to be heard, even though sometimes he is not fair to them. We do mistakes. All of us. Nobody is perfect parent. If he does a mistake, you have to come up with something, and not make him look small, bad in front of the kids. 


You said your husband didn't leave them to play games in the same room were he was. I don't leave my kids either. I hate the noise that comes from games, and of course kids when they play games make too much noise, at least my son. The noise gives me headache, and I explain that to my son.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

Deb* said:


> No abuse, but some authority. That means, is a man, father figure, in the house, who needs to be heard, even though sometimes he is not fair to them. We do mistakes. All of us. Nobody is perfect parent. If he does a mistake, you have to come up with something, and not make him look small, bad in front of the kids.
> 
> 
> You said your husband didn't leave them to play games in the same room were he was. I don't leave my kids either. I hate the noise that comes from games, and of course kids when they play games make too much noise, at least my son. The noise gives me headache, and I explain that to my son.


Yes, we all make mistakes, but only some of us are willing to acknowledge that we did make one.

Let's not forget that my H didn't say his reason was because of the noise, he said his reason was just because it was his preference. Big difference.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, but THAT issue is between you and him -NOT the kids. His real issue is with you.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> Yes, but THAT issue is between you and him -NOT the kids. His real issue is with you.




Not sure I'm following you?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't have time to look up the post but I believe you said he told your son he couldn't use the tv, you questioned him, and he blew you off, as in 'I'm never right, so F it." Right?

That is a marriage issue, not a parent/child issue.

I'm not supporting him, but I do expect you to do the heavy thinking in terms of what your contributions are. 

We ALL have feelings. Perceptions. Misperceptions. Anxieties. Misunderstandings. Even people who seem like *******s. No matter how bad he seems to you (and I agree), he IS human and he DOES have emotions.

I say this because I showed up at marriagebuilders several years ago convinced my husband was abusive. After a couple of years of people banging my head against the wall, it finally occurred to me that he wasn't a villain; I had vilified him.

HE had feelings. HE reacted to me. NEITHER of us was innocent. Once I was able to deal with the fact that I had something to do with our situation, the veil of 'villainy' lifted when I looked at him. He wasn't abusive; he wasn't even mean; he was just dysfunctional, and reacting to MY actions. As I was his.

I'm only saying that you do YOURSELF a disservice if you just walk around blaming everything on your husband. If you don't take the time to really, honestly, look at what happened - and YOUR role in it - you are doomed to repeat it with the next guy you meet.


----------



## TwyztedChyck (Sep 11, 2010)

BK - For what its worth, here's how I see it - I would have questioned H on this as well. It makes absolutely no sense why your son couldn't use the big tv. Had there been a reason (other than 'preference') then fine. And to 'back the other parent' just to present a united front is absolutely ridiculous. If I disagree with something I'm not 'backing' it. Children learn what they live and I would never teach my 3 sons to shut up and go along with something just because. I want them to question everything and then be able to make an informed decision for themselves someday, not just follow along blindly for no apparent reason because someone says so. They watch my actions and reactions and whether I like it or not they will base their life views on what I present. Respect is important in a family, not just a marriage. Husbands, wives and children should all show and be shown respect for one another. Kids deserve respect too and I don't see where H showed it for either you or them. Nor did he attempt a valid reason. I would have most definitely stepped in and overrode his decision. It was not an agreed-upon decision nor did it make sense. I also think your statement to H about watching tv 'again' was not an accusation but an observation. You have a right to your thoughts, feelings and expressions, for that matter so do your kids. Also, until your kids are adults their 'issues' are YOUR issues, whether it is between them and a parent, friend or teacher. Mother is the name for God on the lips of all children. Stand up for them. Demand respect for them. Kids understand a lot more than you realize. Your H sounds pouty and slightly egotistical. Don't try to fix him. Your only role (as is his) is to make yourself a strong, spiritual, moral, capable, loving human being. You will attract the same. Like attracts like. Ignore bad behaviour. If it continues, shake the dust from your feet and walk away. You fight for 'rightness', 'goodness', 'positivity'. If there is none there, what's to fight for. Don't feel pressured to protect his ego. Or to make him always look good. Ego is pride and basically worthless. It makes one feel superior and in control and is selfish. Question that which doesn't add up, stand up for your children, and if you are wrong, say you're wrong. Marriage is important, but don't forget you are an individual. Work on your own selves and if it's right it will come together on it's own. I wish you peace and clarity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TwyztedChyck said:


> BK - For what its worth, here's how I see it - I would have questioned H on this as well.


As would I - ALONE.



> Children learn what they live and I would never teach my 3 sons to shut up and go along with something just because. I want them to question everything and then be able to make an informed decision for themselves someday, not just follow along blindly for no apparent reason because someone says so.


So...when a boss tells your son to show up at 6 instead of 7, you expect him to ask the boss why?

Husbands, wives and children should all show and be shown respect for one another. Kids deserve respect too and I don't see where H showed it for either you or them. Nor did he attempt a valid reason. I would have most definitely stepped in and overrode his decision. [/quote]How old are your children? I'm guessing they are under 13?



> It was not an agreed-upon decision nor did it make sense. I also think your statement to H about watching tv 'again' was not an accusation but an observation. You have a right to your thoughts, feelings and expressions, for that matter so do your kids.


What about the husband?



> Also, until your kids are adults their 'issues' are YOUR issues, whether it is between them and a parent, friend or teacher. Mother is the name for God on the lips of all children. Stand up for them. Demand respect for them. Kids understand a lot more than you realize. Your H sounds pouty and slightly egotistical.


I have to disagree with this only in terms of actuation. Of course it's her job to protect the kids, but it is DETRIMENTAL for her to argue this in front of the kids. TWO people here are adults; it is they who should discuss such things along, and then PRACTICE their decisions on the kids.

Teaching kids to stand up to their parents or any other adult without active abuse is beyond harmful. We NEED to be raised to understand and respect authority.

Mind you, I am NOT telling BK to stay with this guy. I'm just saying there are MANY ways to solve a problem, and teaching kids to say no to their parents is an accident waiting to happen.


----------



## TwyztedChyck (Sep 11, 2010)

If my son's boss had a reason to bring him in early, then by all means, come in early. If its 'just because', to just sit in the parking lot, I'd absolutely question it!
My sons are 17, 14, and 11. 
Of course H has rights to his feelings, thoughts and expressions. He can think, feel and express anything he wants. That doesn't mean I have to agree with or accept said thoughts, feelings and expressions. And if I disagree I will speak up and step in. We would simply have to agree to disagree.
This issue involved her child. His issues are her issues. Speaking up for him in a calm, rational, intelligent manner to work the issue out shows issues CAN be resolved. Changing dinner plans and scoffed feelings can make a child feel unnecessary guilt over their parents' disagreement and could cause undue anxiety. I am referring to the tv issue only here. The issue of attitudes or other/past offenses should by all means be handled in private.
Why is teaching a child to question a baseless decision 'an accident waiting to happen'? WHAT will happen?? Who says parents are perfect and make right decisions every time? I don't want toy soldiers. I want free thinkers. And if that's an accident waiting to happen then its a very sad world indeed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I do understand your viewpoint. I just think that teaching your kids to 'question everything' and 'oppose everything you don't like' is not necessarily the way to succeed in life. IMO, there is a MIDDLE ground.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> I don't have time to look up the post but I believe you said he told your son he couldn't use the tv, you questioned him, and he blew you off, as in 'I'm never right, so F it." Right?
> 
> That is a marriage issue, not a parent/child issue.
> 
> ...


I see where you're coming from.

I realize I'm not perfect, but I do try to be a decent person. I try not to trample other peoples feelings but I know that I do on occasion-unintentionally. 

Just like asking my H's reasoning in front of the kids. I didn't even think about that being wrong of me until it was brought to my attention from someone who posted. Maybe I couldn't see it through my anger. After I thought about it, I realized yes, that blame did lay with me.

It is without question that I hurt people in some way without being aware of it, but if they don't let me know this, how am I supposed to know I've done it? I could think I've worked on myself and consider myself to have come a long way but my H still has problems with me that he, for whatever reason, doesn't want to bring to my attention. So then we still have issues, I feel I've worked on the areas that I needed work in, but I've totally missed the mark. No progress.

So then I look at it like this:

My H has treated my kids badly off and on for 10 yrs.

Why?

Is it caused by something I'm doing/not doing? Is it some reason that lies within him? Is it unreasonable to want an explanation for this? Of course there has to be one.

Why is 10 years of my life in this marriage not enough for my H to at least be decent enough to take the guesswork out of it for me?

If I go to my H and say 'I feel like my kids are treated unfairly by you alot of the time and it makes me feel horrible. I believe it needs to be discussed and dealt with because of the unhappiness it's causing me. If you care about our last 10 yrs together at all you will help me figure out why this happens so we can start repairing our marriage.' and he doesn't dig deep to tell me his side of it, then this marriage is not is not even worth my time, IMHO.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

fwiw, I think your husband is a putz. I'm just saying that, if you don't take a good hard look at yourself, you'll just repeat your mistakes in your next relationship. That is all.


----------



## TwyztedChyck (Sep 11, 2010)

Some things you can't change. You have to pick and choose your battles. Hence the making an intelligent and informed decision. The Serenity Prayer says it well when it speaks of changing what you can, accepting what you cannot change, and wisdom to know the difference. I wouldn't encourage anyone to 'oppose what you don't like'. You don't have to agree with it or embrace it, and in some instances you need that wisdom to know when you should and can speak up and when you shouldn't or can't. I feel the tv decision was changeable and without merit and deserved a rational, inclusive discussion, possibly over a nice dinner. Bam. Two birds. One stone. I mean, what have you got to lose? The 'big tv' for the night? So spend time with your wife instead! Don't like 'losing an argument'? Why not, deflates your ego? Eh, you didn't need it anyway. Don't like being 'called out' in front of your kids? Why not, afraid they'll find out your human? If there's a reason behind a decision, hey, there's a reason. Decision made. If there's not, delve into it a little deeper. Weigh all the options. That's how change is made. That doesn't mean you turn into a rebel and defy everything. It just means don't be afraid to question something that doesn't seem right or fair. It may be changeable, it may not and that's where acceptance comes in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

TwyztedChyck said:


> Some things you can't change. You have to pick and choose your battles. Hence the making an intelligent and informed decision. The Serenity Prayer says it well when it speaks of changing what you can, accepting what you cannot change, and wisdom to know the difference. I wouldn't encourage anyone to 'oppose what you don't like'. You don't have to agree with it or embrace it, and in some instances you need that wisdom to know when you should and can speak up and when you shouldn't or can't. I feel the tv decision was changeable and without merit and deserved a rational, inclusive discussion, possibly over a nice dinner. Bam. Two birds. One stone. I mean, what have you got to lose? The 'big tv' for the night? So spend time with your wife instead! Don't like 'losing an argument'? Why not, deflates your ego? Eh, you didn't need it anyway. Don't like being 'called out' in front of your kids? Why not, afraid they'll find out your human? If there's a reason behind a decision, hey, there's a reason. Decision made. If there's not, delve into it a little deeper. Weigh all the options. That's how change is made. That doesn't mean you turn into a rebel and defy everything. It just means don't be afraid to question something that doesn't seem right or fair. It may be changeable, it may not and that's where acceptance comes in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

If you don't question anything, chances are good you'll turn into a doormat.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> fwiw, I think your husband is a putz. I'm just saying that, if you don't take a good hard look at yourself, you'll just repeat your mistakes in your next relationship. That is all.


Noted.


----------



## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

BK I understand you, believe me. I can say that my husband is not the best father you can find either. Every day will come up something, similar situation as yours, or much worse. He is a good man, but doesn't have a clue how to be a good father. Our son, six years old let me say, is very difficult child, a cry baby. It's hard to please him. Even when I try to make my son happy he will find a reason to cry. Spoiled rotten by his grandparents when he lived with them for a while. Try to avoid public places with him, because he wants everything, and gets emotional really easy. He gives his teacher at school a hard time too. Even for me is not easy to handle perfectly my son. 

I tell my husband," Honey you need some parenting classes, because what you do is not right" He says to me,'' You have been a teacher, educate him''. And I answer,'' Yes I educate kids of elementary school age, but not grown ups. At least, leave me educate them.'' 
I love him. He is a good husband, helps me a lot around, but even though he loves his kids he is not patient with them(my son mostly) at all. Right now I'm trying to work more with my husband, to make him a better father. Not the perfect one, but just better. You now, is in our nature, as women to take care of everybody, especially our kids. As a proverb says,'' A educated man educates only himself, a educated woman educates the all family''.
I wish you the best, I would only advice you to talk more with your husband how to make your marriage work. To divorce somebody it's easy. At least if you divorce him, do not get married again till they are18, since you will do it for your kids. Don't risk again your kids life, and their future.
Going from one relationship to another will not make you look good in their eyes either.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

Deb* said:


> I would only advice you to talk more with your husband how to make your marriage work.



Good idea but I wonder how I would break through his defenses to get him to see the harm he is doing. Nothing I've said so far has made a difference. What can he say to me to convince me that he genuinely cares for my kids rather than just 'puts up with them'.




Deb* said:


> At least if you divorce him, do not get married again till they are18, since you will do it for your kids. Don't risk again your kids life, and their future.


Some more good advice. I would rather be alone than be with someone who can't accept my kids.


----------



## 2rr (Feb 21, 2010)

i think that is the real reason. rest is just cover story


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

2rr said:


> i think that is the real reason. rest is just cover story


What is the real reason?


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"If you don't question anything, chances are good you'll turn into a doormat."

There are times when explanations are appropriate and times when they are not. I taught my kids to be critical thinkers but they also knew enough to know when conversation was unwelcome or over. My job is not to be their buddy but to take an ignorant kid and build a productive, self-reliant adult. They will have to operate in a world which neither has the time or inclination to explain everything to them. Blue lights mean "pull over". A red light means "stop". "Work starts at 7:00am" means have your butt at work before 7:00am. The assignment is due by 23 March, means it's due 23 March. I do realize I have a different perspective because in both my lines of work, people can get killed if they don't automatically and immediately respond when I tell them something.
Fact is, lots of people work in hazardous environments and lots of people are crippled or dead because they couldn't follow simple instructions. Many more are unemployed for the same reason. I don't advocate never explaining oneself to a kid but neither would I advocate getting into the habit of doing so. People almost never get fired from a job or tazed by the police because they lack self-esteem but frequently because they want to debate when it's time to follow instructions. I may need to wake everyone and get them out of the house at 3:00am in seconds. I'm not getting into the habit of responding to "why?" every time I say something. It's not because I'm an egomaniac, but because they need to distinguish talking time and immediate obedience time. If someday I stop your kid because he matches the description of a murderer rapist (although he's perfectly innocent) and I order him out of the car at gunpoint, do you want him to follow my instructions to the letter or shove his hands into his pockets and start arguing with me? If, heaven forbid, he ends up on a battlefield and Sarge yells "get down!", do you want him walking seeking affirmation and second opinions?


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> "If you don't question anything, chances are good you'll turn into a doormat."
> 
> There are times when explanations are appropriate and times when they are not. I taught my kids to be critical thinkers but they also knew enough to know when conversation was unwelcome or over. My job is not to be their buddy but to take an ignorant kid and build a productive, self-reliant adult. They will have to operate in a world which neither has the time or inclination to explain everything to them. Blue lights mean "pull over". A red light means "stop". "Work starts at 7:00am" means have your butt at work before 7:00am. The assignment is due by 23 March, means it's due 23 March. I do realize I have a different perspective because in both my lines of work, people can get killed if they don't automatically and immediately respond when I tell them something.
> Fact is, lots of people work in hazardous environments and lots of people are crippled or dead because they couldn't follow simple instructions. Many more are unemployed for the same reason. I don't advocate never explaining oneself to a kid but neither would I advocate getting into the habit of doing so. People almost never get fired from a job or tazed by the police because they lack self-esteem but frequently because they want to debate when it's time to follow instructions. I may need to wake everyone and get them out of the house at 3:00am in seconds. I'm not getting into the habit of responding to "why?" every time I say something. It's not because I'm an egomaniac, but because they need to distinguish talking time and immediate obedience time. If someday I stop your kid because he matches the description of a murderer rapist (although he's perfectly innocent) and I order him out of the car at gunpoint, do you want him to follow my instructions to the letter or shove his hands into his pockets and start arguing with me? If, heaven forbid, he ends up on a battlefield and Sarge yells "get down!", do you want him walking seeking affirmation and second opinions?


I think that your examples are a little extreme. I believe that it benefits kids if you patiently answer the 'whys' by explaining the rationale behind it in that, they are learning more about the world and how things work rather than just complying with your demands. 

Given the tools to do so, they will be better equipped to rationalize things on their own, when necessary. At the same time they should be taught that there is a time to question authority and a time not to, as you said.

The issue here though, is that I was the one who questioned my H, and you contend that it was even wrong for me to do that.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree. I could not tolerate being around another adult who leans heavily on the "because I said so" approach in situations where it is clearly not needed. 

That said - as an adult I have always been able to distinguish between discuss time and comply time. I have always gotten along well with police folks. When they are not in "comply" mode I find them as easy to have a in depth exchange with as anyone. When they are in "I am in charge mode" you simply do what they say without comment and without hesitation. 

Ultimately this isn't about your children, it is about something very different. Your H does not feel that you love him very much. And when you take the kids side - it makes him feel even less loved/less important. And this brings out a very jerky response. 

That does not make you wrong. If when you behave well, he is not able to sustain his "good" behavior I can see why you don't make the effort. But then - why stay? 

Is he the primary breadwinner? I haven't been able to figure out why you are with him. 






ButterflyKisses said:


> I think that your examples are a little extreme. I believe that it benefits kids if you patiently answer the 'whys' by explaining the rationale behind it in that, they are learning more about the world and how things work rather than just complying with your demands.
> 
> Given the tools to do so, they will be better equipped to rationalize things on their own, when necessary. At the same time they should be taught that there is a time to question authority and a time not to, as you said.
> 
> The issue here though, is that I was the one who questioned my H, and you contend that it was even wrong for me to do that.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> I agree. I could not tolerate being around another adult who leans heavily on the "because I said so" approach in situations where it is clearly not needed.
> 
> That said - as an adult I have always been able to distinguish between discuss time and comply time. I have always gotten along well with police folks. When they are not in "comply" mode I find them as easy to have a in depth exchange with as anyone. When they are in "I am in charge mode" you simply do what they say without comment and without hesitation.
> 
> ...


Mem,

You say that my H doesn't feel like I love him very much. Please tell me how you come to this conclusion?
Are you thinking his need to express his authority stems from not feeling loved by me? I have wondered if he does it to test me to see whose side I will take. I have also wondered if he is jealous of the kids. I've wondered if he just treats the kids mean out of spite. I believe he's hiding his feelings behind 'just because it's my preference', but he won't tell me anything else so I am left to guess. I have asked him on more than one occasion if he resents my kids and his answer is no. :scratchhead:

Yes, he is the primary bread winner. I am with him because I still love him, although I am very close to walking out the door. I would have to plan an exit strategy because financially, it wouldn't happen that easily. Mentally, I am very close to giving up.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hold on. I am not attacking you. I am describing a situation not assigning blame. Here is what I thought I heard you say:
- Early on he behaved badly towards your kids. The "crooked eye" comment certainly proves your point. That kind of stuff will make any emotionally healthy mother see red. 
- That behavior and others killed your desire for him which steadily killed your sex life.
- The bad sex life - for a woman is the result of relationship problems. For a man it is the "source" of relationship problems. There is no way - if you have a minimal/bad sex life that he feels "truly loved" by you. 

You explained that when you have made the effort to reignite your sex life the result is a lot of groping (women almost universally hate being groped - certainly my W does which is why I never ever grope her) and other behavior that causes you to feel bad and kills your desire. 

All of this is valid. All of it. I am not blaming you here I am simply saying that if he is like most guys, the lack of sex means he doesn't really feel loved. 

It sounds like - at least financially - he has been supporting you so that you can raise your children. So my question is this. Do you routinely thank him for supporting another mans children? Do you mentally stop and ask yourself "have I shown this man gratitude for what he DOES do before I critique him for what he is doing wrong or not doing enough of?" Because if I am him and I am doing as much/more than their biological father and you are still not satisfied - I would struggle with that. And if I don't feel very loved - due to the physical part of the marriage being broken AND you consistently side with the kids in front of them that is a big amplifier of my feelings of being unimportant. 

And if I am him and you are consistently doing the "I don't like what you did yesterday, this morning etc" instead of "the next time that happens, I would really appreciate it if you would handle it this way" then instead of feeling motivated to improve I simply feel attacked. 

Just as he has a built in, hardwired tendency to grope which makes you feel bad, you have a built in tendency to "protect" the kids from him which makes HIM feel bad. 

Those two behaviors are almost identical. If you resist the need for instant gratification and approach him in private, constructively he reacts way better. Just as if he controls his desire to grope and waits until you are in bed - and receptive to being touched sexually I imagine YOU react a lot better. 






ButterflyKisses said:


> Mem,
> 
> You say that my H doesn't feel like I love him very much. Please tell me how you come to this conclusion?
> Are you thinking his need to express his authority stems from not feeling loved by me? I have wondered if he does it to test me to see whose side I will take. I have also wondered if he is jealous of the kids. I've wondered if he just treats the kids mean out of spite. I believe he's hiding his feelings behind 'just because it's my preference', but he won't tell me anything else so I am left to guess. I have asked him on more than one occasion if he resents my kids and his answer is no. :scratchhead:
> ...


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Hold on. I am not attacking you. I am describing a situation not assigning blame. Here is what I thought I heard you say:
> - Early on he behaved badly towards your kids. The "crooked eye" comment certainly proves your point. That kind of stuff will make any emotionally healthy mother see red.
> - That behavior and others killed your desire for him which steadily killed your sex life.
> - The bad sex life - for a woman is the result of relationship problems. For a man it is the "source" of relationship problems. There is no way - if you have a minimal/bad sex life that he feels "truly loved" by you.
> ...


You are understanding it absolutely correctly. I didn't feel attacked. I was just looking for some way to understand his behavior since he's content with blowing me off. I thought you might have seen something I didn't when you said he didn't feel loved, not realizing you meant he didn't feel loved due to our sex life being less than adequate.

To answer your question, yes, I tell him often how much i appreciate what he does do for me and the children. Every time I see he has given of himself to do something for us (even just making me coffee in the morning) I tell him that I appreciate it. I also bring it to the kids' attention if there are times they forget to thank him for something.

As far as the way I approach him about something, I have tried several ways. If I approach him in a non-confrontational manner, he still goes into defense mode. After he has played the victim card and attempted to cloud the conversation, all bets are off cuz I am absolutely coming unglued.

When our conversations have ended on a good note and he agrees to do better and then we end up having the same argument for the 50th time because he has done it yet AGAIN, I come unglued.

The way he behaved in this particular argument, I am having a hard time with - WHY did he feel the need to deny my son the TV without a valid reason. Turnera expressed that she too, thought her H was being mean but found out he, in fact, wasn't mean, just dysfunctional. So, how do I distinguish between the two with my H. How do I believe him when he says he loves my kids as if they were his own and would die for them when he acts like this. The reason behind his actions is a big deal to me. I could walk away believing he is just an insensitive jerk and in reality he may just be dysfunctional. A problem still, but one is a little easier to accept than the other.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What I don't understand is why he doesn't want to keep you happy. Or at least why he isn't willing to work hard to keep you happy. It sounds like when he does treat you/kids well - you respond very positively to him and to that behavior. 

By the way - Just like you, I get really mad when someone gives me a bunch of bs responses to simple questions. Is he so insecure he has trouble apologizing when he screws up? I guess it doesn't matter if he says sorry if his behavior does not change. 

Have you ever had him fill out a lovebusters/love kindlers questionnaire with you? Might be educational if you both did that. 

I will say that I have had to fire people at work who I repeatedly "talked to" about unacceptable behavior. They never changed. Some people are just seriously impaired. 

With that said - he likely isn't afraid of you leaving solely due to the financial stuff. And maybe that is a reason he is not so motivated to fix things. I agree that is very dysfunctional. Me personally - either my W and I both make each others happiness a priority or the marriage would end. This idea of "I don't care that you are unhappy - because I am unhappy" I wouldn't go for that and neither would she. 

Are you working on a financial plan? 



ButterflyKisses said:


> You are understanding it absolutely correctly. I didn't feel attacked. I was just looking for some way to understand his behavior since he's content with blowing me off. I thought you might have seen something I didn't when you said he didn't feel loved, not realizing you meant he didn't feel loved due to our sex life being less than adequate.
> 
> To answer your question, yes, I tell him often how much i appreciate what he does do for me and the children. Every time I see he has given of himself to do something for us (even just making me coffee in the morning) I tell him that I appreciate it. I also bring it to the kids' attention if there are times they forget to thank him for something.
> 
> ...


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> What I don't understand is why he doesn't want to keep you happy. Or at least why he isn't willing to work hard to keep you happy. It sounds like when he does treat you/kids well - you respond very positively to him and to that behavior.
> 
> By the way - Just like you, I get really mad when someone gives me a bunch of bs responses to simple questions. Is he so insecure he has trouble apologizing when he screws up? I guess it doesn't matter if he says sorry if his behavior does not change.
> 
> ...


He has told me he doesn't think I'm serious about leaving. He also knows the only family I could stay with is out of state, and he knows I can't leave my mom who is in advanced stage of cancer. Even still, he doesn't seem to comprehend (or care) that even though I can't up and leave very easily, that once the love is gone, it will be gone. 

We've done the Love Busters questionnaires, he says when he looks at my list of 'needs' they're overwhelming.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The "overwhelming" answer is a cop out. A rational person given a list they feel demands "perfection" tells you what they can do and points out the requests they feel are not reasonable. 

The dysfunctional person says "this is too much" and then makes no effort to come to a compromise. They just reject the whole list. Bad stuff. 

Does he want to fix the marriage? 




ButterflyKisses said:


> He has told me he doesn't think I'm serious about leaving. He also knows the only family I could stay with is out of state, and he knows I can't leave my mom who is in advanced stage of cancer. Even still, he doesn't seem to comprehend (or care) that even though I can't up and leave very easily, that once the love is gone, it will be gone.
> 
> We've done the Love Busters questionnaires, he says when he looks at my list of 'needs' they're overwhelming.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> The "overwhelming" answer is a cop out. A rational person given a list they feel demands "perfection" tells you what they can do and points out the requests they feel are not reasonable.
> 
> The dysfunctional person says "this is too much" and then makes no effort to come to a compromise. They just reject the whole list. Bad stuff.
> 
> Does he want to fix the marriage?


He tells me he does, says he wants to grow old with me, says he is in it for the long haul and if there's a divorce it's because I want it, not him- kind of hard to believe when actions show differently, huh?

The original argument I posted about happened about 5 days ago...I haven't spoken to him since except 2 nights ago when we did a pre-planned family thing and that was only because I didn't want the kids to suffer and I wanted them to have a good time.

He knows how close to the edge I am yet he is outside right now with the materials to construct a deck out back (something we have both been wanting for some time) You would think that he would put it on hold as that is something that we both wanted to be a part of, but he comes in here and asks me my opinion on where it should go, etc, which makes me feel like he is not taking any of this seriously and is just waiting for it to 'blow over'. UGH


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LOL - I am like you. Stuff doesn't blow over. I force resolution if humanly possible. Is it possible he is working on the deck as an indirect way to be nice to you? A big time "act of service". Is he generally clumsy in his interpersonal relationships or is he mainly just clumsy with you? 

How does he respond if you send him something in writing - that is very specific to an event like the tv issue? Does that help/hurt/no impact.




ButterflyKisses said:


> He tells me he does, says he wants to grow old with me, says he is in it for the long haul and if there's a divorce it's because I want it, not him- kind of hard to believe when actions show differently, huh?
> 
> The original argument I posted about happened about 5 days ago...I haven't spoken to him since except 2 nights ago when we did a pre-planned family thing and that was only because I didn't want the kids to suffer and I wanted them to have a good time.
> 
> He knows how close to the edge I am yet he is outside right now with the materials to construct a deck out back (something we have both been wanting for some time) You would think that he would put it on hold as that is something that we both wanted to be a part of, but he comes in here and asks me my opinion on where it should go, etc, which makes me feel like he is not taking any of this seriously and is just waiting for it to 'blow over'. UGH


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> LOL - I am like you. Stuff doesn't blow over. I force resolution if humanly possible. Is it possible he is working on the deck as an indirect way to be nice to you? A big time "act of service". Is he generally clumsy in his interpersonal relationships or is he mainly just clumsy with you?
> 
> How does he respond if you send him something in writing - that is very specific to an event like the tv issue? Does that help/hurt/no impact.


If I send him something in writing he will write back and forth with me until that becomes tiresome then he will initiate a conversation to finish the discussion but writing/talking all end up the same way: his defenses go up, he's listening but not hearing me or he makes promises and a couple days later we are fighting again. I guarantee he is thinking that when I decide my silent treatment is over I will agree to give him another chance and all will be right with the world, in his eyes.

He probably does feel like the deck will make me happy because even after 10 years of fights and discussions it is likely not entering his mind that him putting up the deck is just adding insult to injury.

As far as being clumsy in other relationships, I think he is with his kids at times - now his buddies, they get along fine because as he put it to me one night, using a flower as an example, that I am a very complex woman and to me it's a lovely purple flower with soft petals overflowing with beauty and glistening with dew and to him and his buddies "it's just a flower". He can't relate to me.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Overwhelming...tells me he will do nothing, rather than attempt anytying. My garage is filled to the brim with husband's junk. He won't start any project unless he can finish it; even if we have to keep working til 8 am the next day. We've cleaned it out 3 times in 8 years, but he never gets rid of anything, so all he really does is restack everything. By now, with 8 more years of junk, he KNOWS this job will take even longer than til 8 am, so he just ignores it.

Maybe your husband does the same.

Have you tried giving him one specific Love Buster and asking him to work on stopping that one habit? Help him with it, in a loving way, consistently, for at least 3 to 4 weeks, to change the habit. If he does, and you give him positive reinforcement, he may be ready to do the next one.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> Have you tried giving him one specific Love Buster and asking him to work on stopping that one habit? Help him with it, in a loving way, consistently, for at least 3 to 4 weeks, to change the habit. If he does, and you give him positive reinforcement, he may be ready to do the next one.


That is actually some great advice, and when I read it I had a spark of hope...but then, all my emotions going every which way kicked back in. 


How do I get past the reluctance to set myself up AGAIN, possibly to be let down? Every time, It gets harder and harder to deal with the vulnerability of giving him another chance.


Everyone says divorcing is the easy way out, the hard part is staying and working on it, but for some reason I feel like the more I try to stay and make it work...the more I feel like THAT shows weakness. Am I so desperate I have to reduce myself to what seems like begging, to get my husband to love me?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Remind me, are you in counseling?


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> Remind me, are you in counseling?


No, hubby wasn't thrilled that it required taking time off work.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, I meant you.


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> No, I meant you.


Oh sorry, no I'm not.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I recommend it. If nothing else, the counselor will help you analyze your options. You'll learn to have more faith in yourself and to be willing to take chances such as risking working with him on one LB (if that's your goal).


----------



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> I recommend it. If nothing else, the counselor will help you analyze your options. You'll learn to have more faith in yourself and to be willing to take chances such as risking working with him on one LB (if that's your goal).


Yes, that's probably a good idea.
Thanks for your help


----------

