# Yet another (relatively long post about) ILYBINILWY



## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

Hello All,
Been lurking for a few months, thought I'd give this a go to see what the TAM folks say...

I've been with my wife for 18 years. We dated in high school, and waited a decade and a half to marry. Shortly after we married I changed jobs and the new job takes a lot of my time. I'm a very career-oriented person, always looking to the future with my chosen employer, and I generally work long hours. The career I'm in is very skill-specific, so unfortunately my skills would not translate well into a different career path.
My wife recently changed jobs to something that gets out much, much earlier than she used to. Before this we would see each other for a few hours every night, now it's just a few minutes as she needs to get to bed early.
A few months ago I found out that she had been having an EA with a family friend via text. It got pretty naughty, with suggestive pictures of herself (no nudes), and requests by the OM for her to move in with him. 
Then I got the ILYBINILWY speech. I'd been lurking on this site, so I know the chances are the affair has gone physical, or she's already planned on leaving.

For a little background, I have a tendency towards an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. I've gotten that in check, and it's no longer a problem, but I definitely jumped on it a little too late. My job involves alcohol, so I can't drop it completely, but I now have a healthier respect/fear relationship that keeps me from overdoing it -- I tend to stick to one drink per evening, weekends only.
Over the past three years, I've definitely taken her for granted -- I see it now, and wish I could take it back. Reading these forums has given me so much insight on what I *should* have been doing, and what I will do in the future, with or without her.
We're attending counseling, but after each session she seems more and more distant. She stills says "I don't know" for everything, but I feel like she _does_ know, and is just worried about hurting my feelings. We've both started Individual Therapy as well.
She's referred to us as friends, and nothing more. There never really was a lot of sex -- she has had self-image issues, and I'm often tired after work. When we were younger, we even went an entire year without it. I was okay with it because I didn't want to feel like I was forcing her into it, as I would equate that with rape -- and I figured if religious folks can wait 'til marriage, I can wait a year.

I don't want to be friends, and like a lot of the stories I've read here, I never even realized there was a problem until it was too late. I'm madly in love with her, and it's been difficult to come to terms with her not feeling the same way.
In counseling, the hours of my job often come up, and I'm interviewing for various positions that would have better hours, but a drastically reduced pay-rate. She says it's more than my job (I get that) so I worry leaving my current job will leave me cash-strapped should we call it quits.

I've opted for the 180, which admittedly has been one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do. I realize that whining or begging is not an attractive quality, and I'd like to be considered attractive to her.
I've been trying to give her space, "neglect" her needs, etc., but I keep finding myself slipping up. On my occasional day off, I still plan things for us to do, then feel guilty about it for the rest of the evening.
I don't have friends to turn to, as the hours of my job required me to choose "wife" or "friends" for my limited free time -- and I get quite a bit of social interaction at work. She has told "our" friends everything, and I feel as though even if we work things out, they'll always see me as the husband who was cuckolded, or the "workaholic", or the one who almost let her get away.



I'd love to hear feedback. Should I be running down to the courthouse for divorce papers? Has anyone seen the 180 work without a flaw? Am I just completely crazy to even try? 

Just to butter y'all up, I've been amazed at the thoughtfulness that the TAM community puts into each post. I've learned more lurking here in the past few months than I did in 18 years of my relationship.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm sorry it's come to this for you. It may be too little to late for you and she to really work things out. She's told you as much... you've put your marriage on hold for so long, she no longer believes that you want it anymore. Even though you say you do and are willing to do things to prove it. 

I can see what you want in your post, but what does SHE want? That's the key to all of this. Finding that out. The I don't know just isn't acceptible... nor is going through the motions. Maybe you need to be firm and push for an answer from her. At least then you would know what steps to take next.

And FWIW, I don't think the 180 is a good move in your situation. Being or seeming MORE distant from her is only giving her more of the same thing she's been experiencing from you over the years. Emotional withdrawal is what got you in this situation.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

The 180 doesn't "work" or "not work". It's not a tactic to get your wife back. It's a tactic to put yourself in the best position possible should things not work out.

A wife who is in your wife's position will not be loved out of her affair. You absolutely can not give her a choice in the matter, it is either you or this other man. You are in contempt in her eyes. There is no salvaging the relationship at this point. YOU MUST MOVE ON if she doesn't drop him, regardless of if it will encourage her to come back to you or not.

Once you have started living your life for you, growing stronger and becoming a better man, there is a CHANCE that she will realize what she is doing is wrong and what she is missing, and elect to end her affair to continue your marriage. However, if you cater to this possibility, it will never happen, or it will happen in an extremely unhealthy way.

The 180 is about moving on with your life, becoming a better person, and accepting the way life arranges itself because of the positive changes you'll be making.


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

A bit much, CO guy,
Thank you for your responses. I agree that the "I don't know" is unacceptable; maybe I'll push for a more concrete answer in tonight's MC. 
I appreciate both your takes on the 180. I understand that it is a life change done for the benefit of me, and only me. Some of the changes I've made as a result of our MC have been great (i.e. socially acceptable relationship w/ alcohol) and I intend to continue on the path I'm on. I'll refrain from the full-out "neglect" for now, as, yes, that's what got me here in the first place.
Keep up the good work guys/gals! Your responses are inspirational.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

workaholic said:


> A bit much, CO guy,
> Thank you for your responses. I agree that the "I don't know" is unacceptable; maybe I'll push for a more concrete answer in tonight's MC.
> I appreciate both your takes on the 180. I understand that it is a life change done for the benefit of me, and only me. Some of the changes I've made as a result of our MC have been great (i.e. socially acceptable relationship w/ alcohol) and I intend to continue on the path I'm on. I'll refrain from the full-out "neglect" for now, as, yes, that's what got me here in the first place.
> Keep up the good work guys/gals! Your responses are inspirational.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Providing an ultimatum is not optional IMO. Your wife will either ditch the guy, or she'll continue to cake eat and you'll be viewed more and more worthless every day. You're not going to gain your wife's respect by trying to appease her while she's openly mocking you.

A man with high self-respect sees his wife in love with another man and telling him she "doesn't know" and says, "if you want to lose this catch, fine, I'm off to something better."

You're acting like the loyal puppy dog that will never leave her no matter how badly she treats you. All it will do is continue her notion that you are worth less than she is.

Understand that this is incredibly difficult to do, especially in your current mindset (where you believe that you are madly in love with her and desperately need her). Until you look back on where you're at you won't understand how royally messes up that line of thinking is.

My recommendation is you write her a letter, something on the lines of: "Hey, I love you and will do whatever it takes to make this work, but I need to know you're committed 100% to our marriage. If you're not, that's fine, you can move out tomorrow morning and I'll move on." And then start packing her bags the next day if she's still wishy washy.

I know it sounds easier than it actually is, but that is where you need to be.


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

COguy said:


> Providing an ultimatum is not optional IMO. Your wife will either ditch the guy, or she'll continue to cake eat and you'll be viewed more and more worthless every day. You're not going to gain your wife's respect by trying to appease her while she's openly mocking you.


Does this advice change if the affair has definitely been ended?



> I know it sounds easier than it actually is, but that is where you need to be.


True that.



Thanks again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Work,

COguy is correct. Marriage counseling is a waste of time if she's till in contact with the OM

Have you verified that she isn't talking to him or conatcting him in any way?


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

Definitely no more contact with the OM. Have tracking/location software on phone and have done a little visual surveillance. I'm as certain as can be that it's over between them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Good

Get a keylogger up and running and a VAR in car to check for secret FB and email accounts and a possible burner phone she could be using in the car


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

It might change the degree but if your wife tells you she doesn't love you, it's nigh impossible to love her back into desire for you. The best solution is to show self respect for yourself. Let her know you can do better. That display of confidence is much more attractive, but more importantly, if she decides she doesn't want to commit, you're in the best position to move forward.


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

During MC tonight the therapist brought up the idea of one of us staying with friends for a brief period of time to allow us the time to "find ourselves". The W seemed receptive, I offered to help her pack. Now it's time to do some serious work on _me_.
_Divorce Busting_ ships tomorrow.
Maybe too late, but I'll give it a go. Worst-case scenario I end up being a pretty good "me".

Thanks for the support!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

workaholic said:


> During MC tonight the therapist brought up the idea of one of us staying with friends for a brief period of time to allow us the time to "find ourselves". The W seemed receptive, I offered to help her pack. Now it's time to do some serious work on _me_.
> _Divorce Busting_ ships tomorrow.
> Maybe too late, but I'll give it a go. Worst-case scenario I end up being a pretty good "me".
> 
> ...


Wow what a horrible MC. Basically she just gave your wife clinical permission to screw around. Of course your wife was receptive, that's her dream scenario. Now she's free to do whatever she wants while you're still hooked into her. 

There's a reason 90%of separations end in divorce.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

workaholic said:


> During MC tonight the therapist brought up the idea of one of us staying with friends for a brief period of time to allow us the time to "find ourselves". The W seemed receptive, I offered to help her pack. Now it's time to do some serious work on _me_.
> _Divorce Busting_ ships tomorrow.
> Maybe too late, but I'll give it a go. Worst-case scenario I end up being a pretty good "me".
> 
> ...


Getting space or finding oneself is not working on the marriage it just allows for an affair to restart or gain momentum.

I suggest if you separate you just move ahead with you life. Letting her find herself while you work on you seems like you are not good enough for her. It makes you the backup low value plan. She gets a break from the marriage while try to become worthy of her. Why would she want a man like that?


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

Man, I really wished I had asked the MC what percentage of her clients have a successful R before we started with her. I agree that the "space" is a bad idea, even the MC said, "it looks like you're giving it a trial run for the divorce" -- as if divorce was inevitable.
So I'm going to begin working on me, _for_ me -- attending IC, a little weight training, etc. 
For those of you who've been there, what about the little things? When she texts, how long before I should answer? Should I be wearing my wedding ring? How much of "marriage" should be involved in my IC (I've never gone solo). This is a relationship that has lasted since high school, so admittedly I've never even lived on my own. Any advice?


Thanks again, you guys have been great!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tidal1 (May 3, 2012)

workaholic said:


> Man, I really wished I had asked the MC what percentage of her clients have a successful R before we started with her. I agree that the "space" is a bad idea, even the MC said, "it looks like you're giving it a trial run for the divorce" -- as if divorce was inevitable.
> So I'm going to begin working on me, _for_ me -- attending IC, a little weight training, etc.
> For those of you who've been there, what about the little things? When she texts, how long before I should answer? Should I be wearing my wedding ring? How much of "marriage" should be involved in my IC (I've never gone solo). This is a relationship that has lasted since high school, so admittedly I've never even lived on my own. Any advice?
> 
> ...


Oh man, I remember ILYBINILWY, and we need space. She timed it really well too, she went out of town & her & the new guy had a really good time that weekend while I stayed home cleaned the house since I couldn't eat or sleep. It's so funny & pathetic it's hard to be very pissed anymore. 

I'm far from being able to give advice but I've been having to play this little attention game with the ex recently. Been about 3 mos for me, for first 2 mos I was sort of available, we'd swap email, under the guise of the fantasy that maybe we could be friends & I'd even do favors but not with thoughts of R in mind. 

I'd moved on but casual contact continued, we'd respond to messages hours later or even next day. one day she realized I was going out with women, doing a lot of fun stuff I hadn't done in a while & I'm in much better shape. Things changed then, quickly, she initiated much more contact, being unusually nice & complimentary, even a little flirty. 

We started responding to txt immediately, I started to have thoughts I shouldn't have because it was clear she wanted the attention & I screwed up gave it to her and as quick as it started it was over again. I was already going to be at one of our fav restaurants so I said stop by catch up. She politely declined and I regret saying it but only because I've given her the power in the "relationship" again. As soon as I said that she tuned out of whatever it was that we were doing. 

I'm not thinking of R, if I do I remind myself of how I was unceremoniously dumped out of nowhere as she walked out of the door going to work one morning. But if I was it's clear that the only way she would be responsive would be treat her like I do women I meet now, like I don't really care what happens, only do favors if I'm returning a favor and if I respond to her messages do it when I feel like it. Usually after what ever she wants doesn't matter anymore.

These people are correct though, the only positive response I got from ex is when she was confronted with whatever issue my absence was inconveniencing her with. She doesn't feel that way if she thinks I'm still hooked, or doing favors & promptly returning messages.


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

Tidal,
Thanks for the input. Sorry to hear your story, but thank you for sharing, as I feel I can learn from it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Sorry you are going through this. Been there and know the pain.

Having spent the last year dealing with a wayward spouse of 17 now 18 years, I cam to the conclusion she was suffering from a Mid Life Crisis. This is where all the blame is put on you.

None of us are perfect and can be better mates, but this does not give the other spouse the right to cheat PA or EA. Reading the many posts here over the past year, there seem to be many 'teen' marriages that have this problem and MLC events seem to be a common theme.

After months of working on it (well I was and she complained about working on it), she up and left me for 4 months. Out of the blue. She needed space. I 180ed the best I could. We continued MC through out and after 3 months I had had enough. Gave her two choices, she moves back or we head to divorce court.

She has been home since March and things are slowly improving every week.

The book Divorce Busting helped me along with the good folks here at TAM. Take advice with a grain of salt and make your decisions your own that work for you.

Read my link to Midlife below and see if any of this sounds fimilar. The "I don't know" is very common. If you want it to work than prepare for a long ride of patience.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

What you'll hear from the thousands of us that have heard the ILYBNILWY speech, as Tidal mentioned, that you will continue to hear the wishy washy talk. Until the point where you "kick her to the curb" and move on with your life, her disdain for you will increase. At the point where you start moving on and feeling good about it, then all of a sudden she will start getting nervous and like magic, start talking about making it work.

The story has been seen and experienced thousands of times on this forum, it's like clockwork. I can already tell you how your story will go just based on the decisions you tell us you will make.

You NEED the 180, make it seem as if your life is awesome now that you're apart, even if it is complete bullcrap (and it will be for a while). Force yourself to go out and "find yourself". Have fun. Act as if you're divorced already (not by screwing around, but in your hobbies and interests). Don't ever let on that you miss her or want her back or would even consider it. While you're still vulnerable, don't answer her calls or texts.

Watch the movie swingers. It always makes me laugh, the scene where they talk about how women instinctively KNOW when you've moved on, and that's when they call you.


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

ThisIM -- while she's just a bit shy of the "standard" MLC age, she's fitting those descriptions to a tee. And I always thought _I'd_ be the one to opt for the convertible!
CO, I'm going to heed your advice. She hasn't left for her "extended sleepover" yet, and I've started _Divorce Busting_ - which, wow. just wow - so I think I'll offer it to her when she heads out.

While I'm as certain as certain can be, I want to offer up some background on the OM, just to show what I'm "up against". He's also in his mid-thirties and has been a family friend longer than I've known my W. Over the years, I've never seen him with a woman, with one rare exception, and let's just say his taste left much to be desired. Only until recently he lived with his mother, saving money, but treating himself to nice cars (usually more than one at a time). I know he's had a thing for my W forever, and it's a subject that's been toyed with by others. When my job schedule precluded me from attending an event, people would say, "Well, X can be her date." Blindly, I'd laugh it off because he's not even close to her "type".
When I found the texts, it hit really hard because I had never really feared anything from him - other than the money, he really doesn't have much going for him. Alright, he's apparently pretty smooth with the words, because he got this far. I can only imagine how dense the "fog" must be, or how exciting the EA was for my W, because it could be viewed as this man has waited his entire life just for her, with no other thoughts of anyone else. Yay, me.
When I first confronted her, she told me she "chose" him because "it was easy", and I believe it -- he's been setting it up forever (at my bachelor party he tried his damnedest to get me to do all those things men are "supposed" to do at their BP). 
Now I know I sound naive thinking its 100% over between them, but I really do believe she has ended it. I feel she sees it as a temporary euphoria, but maybe as a practice run for chasing long-term euphoria. While we did start out very young (reference to the "teen marriage" comment) most of her friends are also in relationships that started long ago. None of her close friends are the "slept around" type, so I don't think she's emotionally ready (or supported) to go out and "play the field". I think that she's thinking she'll land Mr. Right fairly quickly and move on with her new life. The only person who'd be that available that quickly is her Mr. X and I know she feels like she'd just be settling for him.
So, rather than focus on all of that, I've opted to focus on myself -- a _pre-_180 if you will. I know I made it sound like I'm improving myself because I'm "not good enough", but the truth is I really enjoy the changes I've made so far, and they were pretty much necessary for my own long-term happiness. They've also made me feel as though I'll be better prepared should it turn out that I was completely out of my mind and there is no chance of a reconciliation.
If it does come to the "kick her to the curb", I feel I am better equipped than I once was.

Thanks again!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tidal1 (May 3, 2012)

Not worth trying to figure out what she's thinking, they're F'n crazy in the fog & the truth just isn't in them. She's about to re-write history of your relationship anyway, confound you even more. Maybe it's guilty conscience but they can't even admit the truth once it's all over with and doesn't matter anymore. 
COguy nailed it, they seem to sense when you truly move on but that doesn't happen until you really do "kick her to curb" It was uncanny the timing of mine, I had finally got to the point where how well I was doing wasn't complete bullcrap. She evidently can also sense the set back she's caused me because ever since that one lined txt I sent she's completely unavailable all over again now. Prior to that it was prob a week of swapping messages all day long, early am to late at night.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

workaholic said:


> ThisIM -- while she's just a bit shy of the "standard" MLC age, she's fitting those descriptions to a tee. And I always thought _I'd_ be the one to opt for the convertible!
> CO, I'm going to heed your advice. She hasn't left for her "extended sleepover" yet, and I've started _Divorce Busting_ - which, wow. just wow - so I think I'll offer it to her when she heads out.
> 
> While I'm as certain as certain can be, I want to offer up some background on the OM, just to show what I'm "up against". He's also in his mid-thirties and has been a family friend longer than I've known my W. Over the years, I've never seen him with a woman, with one rare exception, and let's just say his taste left much to be desired. Only until recently he lived with his mother, saving money, but treating himself to nice cars (usually more than one at a time). I know he's had a thing for my W forever, and it's a subject that's been toyed with by others. When my job schedule precluded me from attending an event, people would say, "Well, X can be her date." Blindly, I'd laugh it off because he's not even close to her "type".
> ...


I think you're deluding yourself if you think it's over between them so fast. That's normal, happens to most of us. It doesn't really matter though, she openly disdains you. That's not going to be something that changes until you hit her upside the head with a 2x4. 

It's hard to see right now but it's good to move on. She doesn't even like you. She'll want to make it work not because she likes you but because she's afraid of losing you. If you were so special to her why is she not interested in working things out now?


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

CO, well put.
As for "deluding myself", I've gotten just about as much evidence I can to support my feeling. If she still is, I'll be beyond impressed. Let's just say I'm far more technologically aware than she is, and I might have broken a few laws in my research 

We'll see...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

workaholic said:


> CO, well put.
> As for "deluding myself", I've gotten just about as much evidence I can to support my feeling. If she still is, I'll be beyond impressed. Let's just say I'm far more technologically aware than she is, and I might have broken a few laws in my research
> 
> We'll see...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah well read my story if you're if you want to be surprised. Wife was using her friends cell phone at her work (she worked at a church nursery), in front of our kids, to talk to OM. Like I said it doesn't really matter though, whether she is or isn't communicating with this specific guy, she's not in love with you, you repulse her. Who cares if it's this guy or some other guy or no guy, you have no value to her outside of providing for her needs.

Do you want to be used or do you want a relationship?


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

An update:

W went to stay with a friend for a week. I didn't think it was the best of ideas, but there may be at least a little truth to the old adage, "Absence makes the heart grow fonder". I had just finished _Divorce Busting_ and had been eager to start working on my own happiness -- both from a "180" perspective and from an honest-to-goodness desire to be happy.
I got really lucky right before she left; an old friend of mine was ditching a fairly expensive mountain bike super cheap and I jumped on it. I used to race, and because of my job and wanting to spend free time with the W I had neglected my old passions. Right after she went on her "extended sleepover" I got on the bike and feel like I haven't stopped pedaling in the last 72 hours, lol.
I took the time to clean our place like its never been cleaned before -- hey, might have to entertain the ladies, right? I've started a pretty intensive weight training regimen, and I've been feeling better than ever!
So...
She has to stop by the place to pick up something she forgot. The timing was weird -- she came by much later than she would have if she were passing by after work. I had just come in from a lengthy ride, and I'm pretty sure she had passed by the place a few times seeing I wasn't home. I was cordial, but made sure to keep everything über-platonic. She saw the weights, the bike (the sweaty me), and the place clean, yet devoid of "girliness". Now she's talking about coming home, how we're going to work on things, how she's missed me.

Am I losing my edge here? It really shouldn't have been *that* easy, right?
Those of you with experience, what tricks might be up her sleeve here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 1ElusiveLove (Jul 24, 2012)

Wow. Sorry to hear about your situation Work. (I know you've read my situation) and although my current situation differs from what you're experiencing. I've kinda been through what you're going through during my first marriage. In my first marriage we were together for 13 years, since jr high yet we were only married for about a year and a half of that before he started acting "different". He worked in a job where most all other employees were male, with the exception of about 3 females. I never worried much bout what was going on at work. We had our problems, but I had always felt I trusted him without hesitation. He just wakes up and tells me one day, that he wasn't sure what he was feeling anymore. I found out that behind my back he was calling around about apartments for himself without even mentioning it to me. So he left me and our 1 year old son alone in a house that had his name on the mortgage and moved in to an apartment because " he needed space" I found that disturbing and went through all the stuff you aren't supposed to do, the crying, the reasoning, the begging etc. I stopped by his apartment one day to leave a card, and low and behold 1 of the 3 girls that he worked with was in there. "they were just hanging out" yeah right...Needless to say, I never won that situation....It was all he needed to not feel so guilty bout what he had already starting with that girl, he needed an out. So he used the "space" excuse....worked for him, to get what he wanted....What I realized after what seemed like a lifelong feeling of death was, I was actually happier without him. I learned what it was like to be on my own for the first time, and truth betold It was lovely, just me and my son against the world. I had to go through alot of lonely nights crying myself to sleep in my pillow and wondering what i could have done differently, why i wasn't enough, etc to get where I ended up...I agree with everyone, if you can learn to just "do you" work on making you the YOU you WANT to be...not neccessarily for her, but just for you, you're gonna be better off god forbid it doesnt' work out. IMO, the worse thing to show someone that you are seperated from, is the hold they have on you because I do believe they play off of your feelings and some of them get some kind of sick enjoyment out of watching you squirm and leaving you hanging by a string not knowing if you really have a chance or not...when they know all along that they want out. It's comforting for some people to have a "fall back"....I hope that's not your case, and she's stopped her EA or PA and decides against staying elsewhere....It's hard to work on a marriage if you both aren't there to do it. You seem like a great guy, who struggled for a while trying to balance a career that you're used to, that you enjoy, with your marriage and what your wife needed and or desired. It doesn't make you a bad guy, I think it's very uplifting that you can admit to where you made your mistakes, realize that problems do or did exist that maybe could have been helped on your side of things, and want more than anything to make it work....I hope it's not too late for you guys and I hope she deserves the effort that you are willing to put into your marriage. Good Luck! If you ever need to talk.....I'm here.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

workaholic said:


> An update:
> 
> W went to stay with a friend for a week. I didn't think it was the best of ideas, but there may be at least a little truth to the old adage, "Absence makes the heart grow fonder". I had just finished _Divorce Busting_ and had been eager to start working on my own happiness -- both from a "180" perspective and from an honest-to-goodness desire to be happy.
> I got really lucky right before she left; an old friend of mine was ditching a fairly expensive mountain bike super cheap and I jumped on it. I used to race, and because of my job and wanting to spend free time with the W I had neglected my old passions. Right after she went on her "extended sleepover" I got on the bike and feel like I haven't stopped pedaling in the last 72 hours, lol.
> ...


Well I could tell you my theory but in your current frame of mind you would think it was outrageous.

I'll just keep it simple and say that it seems a little too convenient. She doesn't love you anymore romantically, never will, wants out, and now all of a sudden she wants to work on things? Hmmmm wonder why...

She wanted to get out on her own and "find herself", you're not irresistible enough in person to get her to want to stay, but you're apparently so irresistible that when she's left she really misses you.

Don't even talk about reconciling with her unless you set some major ground rules. You'll figure out her motives real quick when you mention her signing a post-nup.


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

I have a notion as to where you're headed, CO. While I _do_ admit I may have been perceived as a back-up, the OM was definitely not around.
As for a post-nup, are there any real advantages? To say we had divisible assets would be an overstatement.

What _does_ concern me however -- she mentioned that when she comes home, she'd like us to sit down and have an adult conversation (so far, so good). She has a list of goals for the future, with or without me, and could I see myself in those goals. All well and good so far. Then I make the mistake of referring to her "list" as her "list of demands" - didn't mean anything by it - and she blows up. I'd be okay with the blowup if it were just about me twisting her words, but instead it's about demands that _I_ placed on _her_. Those demands? Stop texting EA; Don't call EA; De-friend EA on FB, start IC. 
So she's upset that I asked her to end EA?!?! Oy Vey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Well that pretty much confirms my theory. Hope you're smart enough not to fall for it.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

workaholic said:


> I have a notion as to where you're headed, CO. While I _do_ admit I may have been perceived as a back-up, the OM was definitely not around.
> As for a post-nup, are there any real advantages? To say we had divisible assets would be an overstatement.
> 
> What _does_ concern me however -- she mentioned that when she comes home, she'd like us to sit down and have an adult conversation (so far, so good). She has a list of goals for the future, with or without me, and could I see myself in those goals. All well and good so far. Then I make the mistake of referring to her "list" as her "list of demands" - didn't mean anything by it - and she blows up. I'd be okay with the blowup if it were just about me twisting her words, but instead it's about demands that _I_ placed on _her_. Those demands? Stop texting EA; Don't call EA; De-friend EA on FB, start IC.
> ...


Just say: "These are not demands, those are _my_ boundaries/NUTS, sweetie, and I think they are fair. Respect them or move out. What did you say about your wishes for the future?"


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

An update.

W went to stay with a friend for a week; I used the time to work on myself and the possibility of being single. I cleaned like the place has never been cleaned before. I went full boar into weight training and a fitness regimen. I used to do a lot of cycling, so I picked up a new bike and hit the trails.
She came back and seemed even more distant than before. I couldn't really talk with her much, as she wasn't very responsive. We tried to do some of the things we used to enjoy and attended a couple of fantastic concerts. Even had a great time! But she was still very distant. I began pushing for an answer on "us", looking for more than the typical "I don't know". She's been going to individual therapy (we've stopped MC) and she said she felt we weren't going to work out. I told her that since we're both in our mid-30's we probably shouldn't dilly dally if we're not going to work out together and suggested we both go together to the courthouse in the morning to begin divorce proceedings _pro se_. She seemed responsive for a change.
The next morning I rose from the couch and went into the bedroom and said we should probably get ready to head down. She had a break down, crying, etc. I asked her why she was crying since she seemed so sure this was the direction we were supposed to take. She said she still felt we might work out and she didn't want to give up yet. I told her that it we weren't going to file, that I was going to become more emotionally invested than ever, and that I expected more communication from her end. She agreed.

So here we are a week later and she's still unresponsive. She's still texting or on the Internet 24/7. I had a full conversation with her, then stopped mid-sentence and said no more, and she didn't even realize it. All her body language shows a deep seated resentment towards me. Her tone of voice is of hate. If I touch the small of her back, she flinches.
Then today I see her using a chat program to talk to a guy. When I walk by, she minimizes the screen and does something else. I try this a few times, each time she minimizes the screen. I point out to her that if I am to trust her she shouldn't keep hiding what she's doing when I walk by. Then "the fight" breaks out. She's accusing me of taking "everything" away from her -- that she can't even have friends. I said she _can_ have friends, she just shouldn't be so sneaky about it if she wants me to trust her. During the fight I may have brought up her EA a little too much; not trying to put it back in her face, just trying to get her to understand why I might have questions about "that guy you met in an online game". She brought up that her therapist didn't think what she did qualified as an affair.
Really?!?!?! Sending sexually suggestive pictures to someone who calls you "Babydoll" and texting that someone 1000 times per day (her admission) doesn't qualify as an emotional affair?! Well color me stupid.

Just frustrated because I would like to try to repair things, but it seems she has completely checked out. I wanted to become emotionally invested again because I hadn't been for so long and that led to our issues. For those of you who were there, what was the EXACT moment you realized Divorce was your only option?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

*"For those of you who were there, what was the EXACT moment you realized Divorce was your only option?"
*
Before I proposed...

If, by some freaky friday mishap you and I switched bodies, I would have divorced her during the initial separation. If she doesn't want to stick around and work on the marriage, then there isn't a marriage to work on.

You're being utterly stubborn about divorce. You insist on communication, openness, and devotion. She give you _none_, and you do _nothing_. *She isn't sorry about anything she has done*. *So why are you still married to her?*


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## workaholic (Jul 16, 2012)

That's an excellent question. If I had an answer, I probably wouldn't be here...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

It's because, like most "nice guys", you've lost your self worth.

You've allowed someone to continuously violate your personal boundaries, or even worse, never established them. She can only get away with this because you let her.

Notice how when you say you want a divorce she wants to work on it? When you stick around she wants to message other dudes?

She's not sorry, she's blaming YOU.

Don't worry, a lot of us acted in a similar manner. You'll wake up soon enough, when you realize she'll keep walking all over your dignity until you kick her out. It doesn't happen overnight, baby steps, get a little of your manhood back every day.

Just for the love of God don't have kids with her or do anything stupid like buy a new house. Your marriage was over a while ago, you just didn't know it. No woman wants to be married to a man who lets her cheat around without consequence. She's there for the paycheck and security brother. Sooner you accept that, the sooner you can move on.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 (Aug 6, 2012)

The response to ILYBINILWY should always be who is the other guy or girl. Has anyone seen one instance where it wasn't followed by someone uncovering an ongoing affair?


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