# Ideal wife has changed?



## katiecrna

I didn't want to hijack this thread so I'm starting a new one...

It seems that what a man wants in a wife has changes throughout the years. I remember learning/thinking/seeing that men kinda wanted a subservient type of wife. One that worked less, was available to him and the family, one that tended to the home and children. And now it seems that men want a more independent wife, one that doesn't NEED help, one that has her own life. 

It seems my husband is like this. Like he wants me to get a life so to speak, have my own thing going on so he doesn't feel guilty when he's not here. He always tells me he just wants me to be happy, like that is his one need. My friend recently got married, and she's this good girl, Christian, virgin, never lived together blah blah. And she is was telling me she is learning how to be a wife to a very laid back husband. It's like she doesn't know what to do, and she wants to do something to please him. I told her it would probably make him happy to see her get her own life so to speak. Anyway, she thinks this notion is really weird and she can't really adjust to it.

Men... am I wrong in thinking this is what you want?


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## happysnappy

I think this is true for both men and women. In my late teens and early 20's I was looking for someone nice to look at that was fun to spend time with. After kids I realized that I needed a provider, confidant and leader as a husband. In my late 30's it hasn't changed much. This is why I don't believe it's good to get married so young 


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## Married but Happy

I prefer a more independent wife, one who has her own life. She may need help sometimes, but then, so do I! And I want us both to be happy and fulfilled, in whatever ways that matter to us as individuals and as a couple. If anything, the idea of a woman being subservient to me kind of makes me feel ill. We are partners, equals - but bring our own individual strengths and weaknesses to the relationship.


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## katiecrna

I feel like this whole independent wife who has her own life thing is hard to achieve and casts impossible expectations on women. Maybe I'm wrong? 
So we're suppose to be independent, work, confident, have our own life and work, dress nice and whatever, but at the same time we have to cook/clean/take care of the kids, and still have time to look sexy while having wild sex with our husbands all the time. It seems like we have to do everything. Am I wrong?


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> I didn't want to hijack this thread so I'm starting a new one...
> 
> It seems that what a man wants in a wife has changes throughout the years. I remember learning/thinking/seeing that men kinda wanted a subservient type of wife. One that worked less, was available to him and the family, one that tended to the home and children. And now it seems that men want a more independent wife, one that doesn't NEED help, one that has her own life.
> 
> It seems my husband is like this. Like he wants me to get a life so to speak, have my own thing going on so he doesn't feel guilty when he's not here. He always tells me he just wants me to be happy, like that is his one need. My friend recently got married, and she's this good girl, Christian, virgin, never lived together blah blah. And she is was telling me she is learning how to be a wife to a very laid back husband. It's like she doesn't know what to do, and she wants to do something to please him. I told her it would probably make him happy to see her get her own life so to speak. Anyway, she thinks this notion is really weird and she can't really adjust to it.
> 
> Men... am I wrong in thinking this is what you want?


I have and will always want a partner. I want her to have her own life but I want to be included in that life, just like I include her in mine. I want to be the first person she thinks about when it pertains to her life and I want her to be the first person I think about. I want to be the first person she wants to tell when she is excited about something in her life, as she is for me. Even if I don't appreciate it the way she does. I can learn, I have empathy so I can appreciate it through her eyes. I have never had thoughts about independent or not independent. My wife is her own being. I want her to live her life to the fullest, I want to help her do that in any way I can. But I want her to want me along for the ride. That is exactly how I feel about her in my life. She is my wingmate, she rides shotgun when we are doing my things. I will do the same for her. Starkey and Hutch, Thelma and Louise, Han an Luke, sokillme and his wife, SKM'w wife and SKM. 

Finally I want her to freely give herself to me physically even if she has fear or insecurity (I know that's a lot to ask). That doesn't mean always say yes, but it also shouldn't mean everything has to be perfect to say yes. What I mean is when she does give herself the motivation shouldn't be anything other then because she wants to, not covert contracts. And it should be enthusiastic about it most of the time. That should be just as much a partnership. Not something that is done out of obligation. It should be just as important as what ever it is in here life that she is passionate about.


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## chillymorn69

katiecrna said:


> I didn't want to hijack this thread so I'm starting a new one...
> 
> It seems that what a man wants in a wife has changes throughout the years. I remember learning/thinking/seeing that men kinda wanted a subservient type of wife. One that worked less, was available to him and the family, one that tended to the home and children. And now it seems that men want a more independent wife, one that doesn't NEED help, one that has her own life.
> 
> It seems my husband is like this. Like he wants me to get a life so to speak, have my own thing going on so he doesn't feel guilty when he's not here. He always tells me he just wants me to be happy, like that is his one need. My friend recently got married, and she's this good girl, Christian, virgin, never lived together blah blah. And she is was telling me she is learning how to be a wife to a very laid back husband. It's like she doesn't know what to do, and she wants to do something to please him. I told her it would probably make him happy to see her get her own life so to speak. Anyway, she thinks this notion is really weird and she can't really adjust to it.
> 
> Men... am I wrong in thinking this is what you want?


a wife that works won't take all your money if you get a divorce. the good ol days are over. were equals everybody should make their own way in the world.


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## happysnappy

chillymorn69 said:


> a wife that works won't take all your money if you get a divorce. the good ol days are over. were equals everybody should make their own way in the world.




Not true in any way shape or form. Stepkids biomom cleaned my husband out. Emptied all the accounts left him all the bills, quit the job where she made more than he did and he had to pay a crap ton in support. 


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## Andy1001

katiecrna said:


> I feel like this whole independent wife who has her own life thing is hard to achieve and casts impossible expectations on women. Maybe I'm wrong?
> So we're suppose to be independent, work, confident, have our own life and work, dress nice and whatever, but at the same time we have to cook/clean/take care of the kids, and still have time to look sexy while having wild sex with our husbands all the time. It seems like we have to do everything. Am I wrong?


I agree with you on this.When this question is asked the answer always seems to be what it is my wife can DO for me,what does she BRING financially and physically to the marriage.It seems to me that some men are preparing for divorce before they have the wedding.I want nothing financially from my partner,I trust her to be faithful,she has given me a beautiful baby and I have my house paid for and earn enough money for both of us.Everything else is just small stuff and you should never sweat the small stuff.


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## jb02157

What I want and expect in a wife is a partner. A partner in life and everything, not someone who is independent. I do expect her to work, pay her share of the bills, do her share of the house work, have friends and have activities with others, but her primary responsibility is to the family and no others. We plan our lives and activities together not independently.


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## FeministInPink

katiecrna said:


> I feel like this whole independent wife who has her own life thing is hard to achieve and casts impossible expectations on women. Maybe I'm wrong?
> So we're suppose to be independent, work, confident, have our own life and work, dress nice and whatever, but at the same time we have to cook/clean/take care of the kids, and still have time to look sexy while having wild sex with our husbands all the time. It seems like we have to do everything. Am I wrong?


I think you're right... it's the dilemma of "having it all" when it's impossible for women to have it all, unless men step up their game in terms of child-rearing and housekeeping. And some men do--but a lot of men still don't. 

My XH made it clear that he expected me to pay my own way, and he wanted me to have my own life... when I finally got him to go to marriage counseling, he said he was unhappy because I didn't keep the house clean enough. I was like, really??? I work 50+ hrs/week and go to grad school part-time, while you work 30hrs/week... you know how to vacuum and load a dishwasher! Why is it solely MY responsibility to keep the house clean, when two of us live here? He expected me to be a modern career woman with an education, but he also expected me to be a 1950s housewife. You can't do both.


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## katiecrna

FeministInPink said:


> He expected me to be a modern career woman with an education, but he also expected me to be a 1950s housewife. You can't do both.



Exactly!! It is a dilemma today. And then you have surveys going around that divorce rate increases as husbands do more chores. Then men complain that women want to divorce and take all their money. It seems we have to do it all, look good doing it, not nag or complain, and have energy to have sex at the end of the day. Something has to give.


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## Buddy400

katiecrna said:


> I didn't want to hijack this thread so I'm starting a new one...
> 
> It seems that what a man wants in a wife has changes throughout the years. I remember learning/thinking/seeing that men kinda wanted a subservient type of wife. One that worked less, was available to him and the family, one that tended to the home and children. And now it seems that men want a more independent wife, one that doesn't NEED help, one that has her own life.
> 
> It seems my husband is like this. Like he wants me to get a life so to speak, have my own thing going on so he doesn't feel guilty when he's not here. He always tells me he just wants me to be happy, like that is his one need. My friend recently got married, and she's this good girl, Christian, virgin, never lived together blah blah. And she is was telling me she is learning how to be a wife to a very laid back husband. It's like she doesn't know what to do, and she wants to do something to please him. I told her it would probably make him happy to see her get her own life so to speak. Anyway, she thinks this notion is really weird and she can't really adjust to it.
> 
> Men... am I wrong in thinking this is what you want?


Contrary to how it's portrayed in culture, I think most guys (especially younger guys) welcome the whole feminist independent / non-subservient woman thing. 

But I think quite a few women aren't entirely happy about it (although they think they're supposed to be)


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## Buddy400

katiecrna said:


> Exactly!! It is a dilemma today. And then you have surveys going around that d*ivorce rate increases as husbands do more chores*. Then men complain that women want to divorce and take all their money. It seems we have to do it all, look good doing it, not nag or complain, and have energy to have sex at the end of the day. Something has to give.


I think the theory there is that women lose attraction for men who do too many chores.


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## katiecrna

Buddy400 said:


> Contrary to how it's portrayed in culture, I think most guys (especially younger guys) welcome the whole feminist independent / non-subservient woman thing.
> 
> 
> 
> But I think quite a few women aren't entirely happy about it (although they think they're supposed to be)




It obviously depends on the women. But for me... I like a balance. I know that I personally could never be happy staying home, doing the whole subservient thing. And I could never be happy working full time while my husband tends to the house and having all the financial burdens on me.


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## katiecrna

Buddy400 said:


> I think the theory there is that women lose attraction for men who do too many chores.




And I agree with that. But I also think a women loses attraction for men who are lazy, play too many video games, and don't help at all.


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## katiecrna

chillymorn69 said:


> a wife that works won't take all your money if you get a divorce. the good ol days are over. were equals everybody should make their own way in the world.




And everyone should do their own laundry and clean up after themselves and pull their own load.


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## ConanHub

A wife for me is simply that. Anything she brought to the table, I obviously accepted because I loved her.

Be she a high earner / career woman or homemaker. 

We will work it out. 

A woman that can attract me enough to marry her has everything she needs.

The rest is just details.

No hard and fast rules where I'm concerned.

Partners but not identical in all aspects.

I do most of the cooking and she does most of the cleaning.

We both take care of the dog.

We both love screwing each others' brains out.

I have always earned more but if her workday is longer than mine, I have dinner ready and sometimes a mineral bath, waiting for her.


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## Andy1001

katiecrna said:


> And everyone should do their own laundry and clean up after themselves and pull their own load.


What are your feelings about housekeepers if it's affordable.


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## FeministInPink

katiecrna said:


> And I agree with that. But I also think a women loses attraction for men who are lazy, play too many video games, and don't help at all.


Yes! If my XH got off his lazy ass and did some chores instead of spending all his time playing video games, I might still be married. 

(His free time was his to do with whatever he pleased, but he apparently the small amount of free time that I had should should have been devoted to cleaning up after him.)

OK, probably not, because he still would have been a turd. Just a turd who cleans up after himself.


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## katiecrna

Andy1001 said:


> What are your feelings about housekeepers if it's affordable.




It depends on what they do. But I think they are great. If they can clean the bathrooms, vacuum/mop. Most people I know who have housekeepers don't get their laundry done. 
So there is still the... cooking, cleaning up after cooking, dishes, laundry, general sweep up, wipe down counters, take out garbage, grocery shopping that needs to be done on the regular. 

It's probably a good habit to clean up dinner and do the dishes together.


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## SunCMars

Trying to get a short answer out of me is like pulling hens teeth.

But yes, this is what a lot of men want.

We want you to be happy. And, to have your own life and not hang on us.

Not expect us to keep you happy and entertained.

At the same time, when it comes to our belly and balls, you better be ready to take good care of them!

I said it. 

It ain't pretty.

Obviously, when men and their wives go on trips and vacations this dynamic changes. It is teamwork, all the way.

I stopped here. There is more to the story.


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## katiecrna

I also think that us women need to stop trying to do it all and make our men step up. I guess it's true that we teach people how to treat us in a way. 

I'm going to start to make my husband help me clean up after dinner. That is when we actually have dinner together which is rare. 
Right now I'm refusing to fold his laundry and put it away. (He hasn't done it yet, it still lays clean and unfolded in the laundry basket). 

I feel like I take on the "help" and I am no longer this sexy self with a life. But it's my fault because I feel like I know he isnt going to do anything so I take it upon myself to do everything. I am really sabotaging myself and I need to stop. I'm a work in progress!


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## BetrayedDad

katiecrna said:


> now it seems that men want a more independent wife, one that doesn't NEED help, one that has her own life.
> 
> It seems my husband is like this. Like he wants me to get a life so to speak, have my own thing going on so he doesn't feel guilty when he's not here. He always tells me he just wants me to be happy, like that is his one need.


I think your husband is a very wise man and you should heed his advice. What he means is he does not want to be the sole source of your happiness. 

That you shouldn't be a codependent and realize HAPPINESS COMES FROM WITHIN. It's clear that he has found his inner happiness and wants the same of you.

When you are the sole source of someone's happiness and you let them down, even through no fault of your own, then you doom them to misery and resentment.

It's too much responsibility for any person to have. It's too high a pedestal to sit on. We all have our own lives to lead even married or otherwise. Be a PARTNER in that.


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## katiecrna

SunCMars said:


> Trying to get a short answer out of me is like pulling hens teeth.
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, this is what a lot of men want.
> 
> 
> 
> We want you to be happy. And, to have your own life and not hang on us.
> 
> 
> 
> Not expect us to keep you happy and entertained.
> 
> 
> 
> At the same time, when it comes to our belly and balls, you better be ready to take good care of them!
> 
> 
> 
> I said it.
> 
> 
> 
> It ain't pretty.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, when men and their wives go on trips and vacations this dynamic changes. It is teamwork, all the way.
> 
> 
> 
> I stopped here. There is more to the story.




I have no problem with the balls and belly. I do have a problem with work, clean, belly, balls, kids while looking amazing.


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## katiecrna

Isn't a housekeeper equivalent to a lawn mower? Or a snow plower? 

If a man mows his own yard and shovels his driveway then I get the women having to deep clean the house. But if you don't do those things, then I think it's fair to have a housekeeper deep clean.


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## naiveonedave

JMO - traditional gender roles are probably at least partially with us for many generations. But these are somewhat of a two way street. In general, men want women to do 'most' of the traditional house keep and women want providers and guys who do the manly chores like killing bugs, taking out the trash, etc. (I think we are born with some of this, so it may never go away). I think many times women do way too much, esp around the house and with childcare if both are working full time. However, there are situations where men fall into the same trap (chores for sex). 

The solution is to be rational and communicate about what is and isn't working. In my M, my wife does >90% of the cooking. It used to drive her nuts if I came home from work and did anything 'lazy', while she was in the kitchen.  (I need to unwind). After discussing stuff, I tend to hang in the kitchen and help out some. Meets her needs for attention and makes me appear 'less' lazy, even though I am not doing much...


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> And everyone should do their own laundry and clean up after themselves and pull their own load.


Or at least pull a load (no jokes). I don't cook my wife wouldn't want to eat the food I cook. My wife doesn't cut the grass. We both do the laundry together. I do the bathrooms and sweep, she dusts and wet mops. Teamwork.


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## Wolf1974

katiecrna said:


> I feel like this whole independent wife who has her own life thing is hard to achieve and casts impossible expectations on women. Maybe I'm wrong?
> So we're suppose to be independent, work, confident, have our own life and work, dress nice and whatever, but at the same time we have to cook/clean/take care of the kids, and still have time to look sexy while having wild sex with our husbands all the time. It seems like we have to do everything. Am I wrong?


You are 1/2 right.

I do expect my significant other to come to the table being confident, have her own life, work, dress nice be sexual.

And yes I also expect her to cook clean and help take care of the kids. I also hold myself and should be held to the same standard. I take care of my own kids, I do 1/2 the cleaning and 90% of the cooking. I work, have my own life , and confident. I expect my partner to be the same as me and do and be responsible for 1/2 of everything .


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## WorkingOnMe

This thread is making me feel old fashioned. But ya, I'm not really into super independent women. Give me a 50s housewife any day. 


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> I also think that us women need to stop trying to do it all and make our men step up. I guess it's true that we teach people how to treat us in a way.
> 
> I'm going to start to make my husband help me clean up after dinner. That is when we actually have dinner together which is rare.
> Right now I'm refusing to fold his laundry and put it away. (He hasn't done it yet, it still lays clean and unfolded in the laundry basket).
> 
> I feel like I take on the "help" and I am no longer this sexy self with a life. But it's my fault because I feel like I know he isnt going to do anything so I take it upon myself to do everything. I am really sabotaging myself and I need to stop. I'm a work in progress!


You talked to him first about this though right? Because just leaving it in the basket probably ain't going to cut it. Most men are just going to pull the stuff out of the basket when needed. Unfortunately you should have talked about this before you got married. Gonna be harder now.


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## Andy1001

katiecrna said:


> It depends on what they do. But I think they are great. If they can clean the bathrooms, vacuum/mop. Most people I know who have housekeepers don't get their laundry done.
> So there is still the... cooking, cleaning up after cooking, dishes, laundry, general sweep up, wipe down counters, take out garbage, grocery shopping that needs to be done on the regular.
> 
> It's probably a good habit to clean up dinner and do the dishes together.


I lived on my own up until Christmas when my gf and her son moved in and now she has had our baby.I have two full time housekeepers who cook,clean,do the laundry and anything else within reason that I ask them to.My gf has been hinting that WE should do our own laundry but so far I have resisted.


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## sokillme

I guess I am going to be the only one commenting on sex?


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## katiecrna

naiveonedave said:


> In my M, my wife does >90% of the cooking. It used to drive her nuts if I came home from work and did anything 'lazy', while she was in the kitchen. (I need to unwind). After discussing stuff, I tend to hang in the kitchen and help out some. Meets her needs for attention and makes me appear 'less' lazy, even though I am not doing much...



I appreciate this. But do you ever think that when your wife comes home she wants to relax and unwind too? I think that if something has to get done and no one else does it I have to do it. Plain and simple. The last thing I want to do after a 12hr shift is cook. But guess what? No one else is going to do It so I have to. This is what causes resentment in marriage. 
A lot of women would love to come home and relax like men do. But all we see is our to-do-list and it's not going to get done unless we do it. And that's why I believe women at the end of the day don't have energy for sex.


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## SunCMars

If you take care of the belly and the balls, no right thinking man is going to worry if you are not all "dolled" up.

We want the clothes off and the hair all messy. 

All we have to is shovel the snow, fix everything broken.....what a deal!

"It appears", you married a spoiled, well educated, white gloved gentleman. You need a "Man of all Seasons".

From "Your soup to his Nuts".

Just sayin!


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## ConanHub

Oh. I forgot.

I kill or eradicate any pests be they rodent, insect or anything in between. LOL!

And...all car related issues or home repairs and I do more than half the shopping.


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## katiecrna

Wolf1974 said:


> You are 1/2 right.
> 
> 
> 
> I do expect my significant other to come to the table being confident, have her own life, work, dress nice be sexual.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes I also expect her to cook clean and help take care of the kids. I also hold myself and should be held to the same standard. I take care of my own kids, I do 1/2 the cleaning and 90% of the cooking. I work, have my own life , and confident. I expect my partner to be the same as me and do and be responsible for 1/2 of everything .




That's amazing. I wish all marriages were like this.


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## katiecrna

WorkingOnMe said:


> This thread is making me feel old fashioned. But ya, I'm not really into super independent women. Give me a 50s housewife any day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Is this how your wife is? And how old are you?


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## Wolf1974

katiecrna said:


> That's amazing. I wish all marriages were like this.


They certinaly can be if you pick right.


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## MEM2020

Physical attraction part being a given the rest is simple to describe, difficult to find. 

1. Good at the mechanics of life 
2. Emotionally positive 

(1) Is basic resource management - being organized and disciplined - responsible with money/time....
(2) Being adventurous, happy, playful, funny 

Those two things 

Our stuff lasts forever because M2 is super good about maintenance. Our own bodies included in the 'maintenance' process. 

She is super fun to be around. Even when she's being difficult - which is fairly often - she retains a playfulness that makes everything work. 

She is always getting on my case about - my serial inVIDelities. Genuinely dislikes that I watch stuff without her. 

We get to episode two of a series and she starts grilling me. Have you already seen this? Have you watched the whole damn series without me? 

So I do this thing she taught me to do - by doing it to me - when I'm having a sort of phobic reaction. Caricature. 

So I say: Nooo nooo in this high pitched voice - which in our house means - heck yes 

And then I do some version of - why would I watch the series - already read the books and saw the play. 

Converting genuine tension - over - control and synchronization issues - into laughter - is a very real positive theme between us. 

And sometimes she slugs me - when I'm caricaturing her - and that's ok too. Transparency is good. But you have to help each other - laugh at yourselves when - you are being phobic. 

The alternative would be to have a totally rational, but frankly very tense and emotionally draining conversation about who should get their way. 

Playful people - are generally irresistible. 





ConanHub said:


> A wife for me is simply that. Anything she brought to the table, I obviously accepted because I loved her.
> 
> Be she a high earner / career woman or homemaker.
> 
> We will work it out.
> 
> A woman that can attract me enough to marry her has everything she needs.
> 
> The rest is just details.
> 
> No hard and fast rules where I'm concerned.
> 
> Partners but not identical in all aspects.
> 
> I do most of the cooking and she does most of the cleaning.
> 
> We both take care of the dog.
> 
> We both love screwing each others' brains out.
> 
> I have always earned more but if her workday is longer than mine, I have dinner ready and sometimes a mineral bath, waiting for her.


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## katiecrna

sokillme said:


> You talked to him first about this though right? Because just leaving it in the basket probably ain't going to cut it. Most men are just going to pull the stuff out of the basket when needed. Unfortunately you should have talked about this before you got married. Gonna be harder now.




We have. It's a issue right now, but won't be in the future.


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## katiecrna

Man there is nothing better than a simple, organized, well balanced life. *dreaming


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## Young at Heart

katiecrna said:


> ...It seems that what a man wants in a wife has changes throughout the years. I remember learning/thinking/seeing that men kinda wanted a subservient type of wife. One that worked less, was available to him and the family, one that tended to the home and children. And now it seems that men want a more independent wife, one that doesn't NEED help, one that has her own life....


It seems most are talking about what is the current Cosmo-girl or Esquire vision of an ideal wife.

For me there is something far more profound in what you posted.

What I have wanted in a wife has changed over the 46 years of marriage as our situations have changed. 

When I was a dirt poor college graduate student, my wife helped support us financially (I had multiple jobs at and outside the university and had a scholarship to do my part).

When we had children and she stayed home to take care of them, I wanted a wife who would take care of them so I could focus on being a good provider and make sure that the mortgage payments were always made on time.

When the children were in school she went back to work and she wanted me to be their sports coach after school, on weekends, and I wanted her to give me the time to do that.

When the kids left home for college and careers and we became empty nesters, I wanted someone to reconnect with and share time together. The concept of shared recreational interests became something that I really got to understand. She also wanted to go back to graduate school and really advance her career. I supported her financially and spent weekends doing things had helping proof read her thesis and research papers.

Now that we are established in both our careers and financially very comfortable and planning retirement, we each want a travel partner and someone to share grand-parenting duties with.

One of the things that David Schnarch points out is that marriage is one of the hardest things two people can do, if done correctly. The reason is that we are two separate people, who have come together to form a single social family unit. We each grow and emotionally mature at different rates. That creates conflict between us that stresses one or the other and pushes or pulls them to emotionally grow or to reach a compromise that both can live with.

Yes, your newly wedded friend is struggling with huge emotional growth, but more huge (since she didn't live wither her husband before marriage or have sex with him) is that she and him have had to change (aka grow) even more than most newly married couples in the first few months of marriage. 

Marriage especially at the start is a huge change. 

Now to transition to what most are talking about. If one partner in a marriage is a clear leader and the other a clear follower, then the transition is perhaps less. Once upon a time when both husband and wife lead a subsistence existence either on a farm or industrial city setting, then self-fulfillment wasn't really an option. In such times a clear marital leader and clear follower probably reduced stress and clearly defined gender roles helped reduce the stress of marriage.

Today, self-fulfillment is constantly being stressed in the media and culture. Gender roles are also more fluid with stay at home dads, and corporate executive wives. So in today's culture yes, Getting a Life allows for more self fulfillment, independence, etc.


----------



## MEM2020

If you have a mechanically solid life - with a high playfulness quotient - sex just happens pretty easily. 






sokillme said:


> I guess I am going to be the only one commenting on sex?


----------



## katiecrna

MEM2020 said:


> If you have a mechanically solid life - with a high playfulness quotient - sex just happens pretty easily.




I think that when life is at it's busiest (my guess is when you have young kids, and careers/jobs) chores, and Efficiency of time is critical. We always have a to-do-list, some which can be ignored. But when you have young kids you can't ignore your to-do-list and so your time and energy goes toward getting all that stuff done as opposed to spending quality time with husband and wife. I think this is the time when men feel their wives neglect them sexually and women feel they have no energy to even think about Sex let alone have sex. 


To me it seems this time I described above is a difficult time for couples. It seems there are a lot of posts on TAM about their unhappiness with their marriage or lack of sex. 

I also think this is the time when resentment can build up because of how tough this time is. (Correct me if I'm wrong). 

This is my observation... I am not at that point in my life yet. Would love to hear from those who experienced it.


----------



## Buddy400

katiecrna said:


> I also think that us women need to stop trying to do it all and make our men step up. I guess it's true that we teach people how to treat us in a way.
> 
> I'm going to start to make my husband help me clean up after dinner. That is when we actually have dinner together which is rare.
> Right now I'm refusing to fold his laundry and put it away. (He hasn't done it yet, it still lays clean and unfolded in the laundry basket).
> 
> I feel like I take on the "help" and I am no longer this sexy self with a life. But it's my fault because I feel like I know he isnt going to do anything so I take it upon myself to do everything. I am really sabotaging myself and I need to stop. I'm a work in progress!


I'll play the male @EleGirl here and point out that not all men do this.

I actually pick up my wife's underwear from the bathroom floor!


----------



## uhtred

Not how it works for me. My wife is independent, has an advanced degree, a good job and an artistic hobby. I have an advanced degree, good job and a non-artistic hobby. Because we both work, we share chores. 

We don't do the same things, but we both feel like the chores are balanced: She cooks, I clean and put away. I do the bills, she does the taxes. Various other chores get done by one or the other of us.

So yes its good to "be ndependent, work, confident, have our own life and work, dress nice and whatever", but then you shoudl not be expected to "cook/clean/take care of the kids" by yourself.

Ideally each of you would be having frequent wild sex with the other.






katiecrna said:


> I feel like this whole independent wife who has her own life thing is hard to achieve and casts impossible expectations on women. Maybe I'm wrong?
> So we're suppose to be independent, work, confident, have our own life and work, dress nice and whatever, but at the same time we have to cook/clean/take care of the kids, and still have time to look sexy while having wild sex with our husbands all the time. It seems like we have to do everything. Am I wrong?


----------



## *Deidre*

Idk, I think many men like or even need to be needed. It's part of their nature, to be needed by their women. To be respected. Whereas women want to be respected also, but we want to be loved, cared for, protected. Not saying all women, but that is also part of our nature. I think the problems come in when we fight out nature. 

We can be independent as women, and still be interdependent in our relationships with our men.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

katiecrna said:


> Is this how your wife is? And how old are you?


She's not completely like this. She works part time and does probably 80% of the house work. I do the outside stuff, maintenance and cook about half the time. She does things on her own to a certain extent but not nearly as much as me. I'd say on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being Lady Gaga and 1 being June Clever she's about a 3.5. I'm 46, she's 47. 3 kids, married 25 years in August.


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## katiecrna

Lady Gaga hahahah


----------



## Ynot

katiecrna said:


> I feel like this whole independent wife who has her own life thing is hard to achieve and casts impossible expectations on women. Maybe I'm wrong?
> So we're suppose to be independent, work, confident, have our own life and work, dress nice and whatever, but at the same time we have to cook/clean/take care of the kids, and still have time to look sexy while having wild sex with our husbands all the time. It seems like we have to do everything. Am I wrong?


Yes, you are wrong. But it isn't your fault. Those are the expectation that society dumps on us. The same holds true for men, we are supposed to be strong yet sensitive, have own life but be dependable, work but be available, be exciting but dependable etc etc. It seems we have to do everything as well. Women and men have unrealistic expectations heaped on them by a society that is undergoing a rapid transformation while holding on to aged and outdated traditions. Many marriages fail because of the unrealistic expectations we accept for our selves and our spouses, all of which lead to unhappiness, resentment and eventual divorce.
I have discovered you are better off to write your own script rather than read the lines written for you. If people don't like your ad-libbing too bad for them but better for you.


----------



## FeministInPink

sokillme said:


> Or at least pull a load (no jokes). I don't cook my wife wouldn't want to eat the food I cook. My wife doesn't cut the grass. We both do the laundry together. I do the bathrooms and sweep, she dusts and wet mops. Teamwork.


I love cooking for Real Estate when I'm over at his place. It relaxes me after my day at the office, and he jokes that he gets to play at "1950s Dad." It puts me in the zone of being fully present with him when we sit down to eat, and he is always very appreciative, because while he's a grown man and can fend for himself, everything he cooks tastes the same because he just randomly throws every seasoning he has into the pot/pan, so he really likes it when I cook. But he insists on doing all the cleaning after, no matter how big of a mess I make. But if I've had a rough day, he knows it by looking at me, and insists on taking me put for dinner. He never expects me to cook--it's always my choice.

And he LOVES mowing the lawn, for some reason. If we lived together, he would never let me mow the lawn, which is just as well since I've never touched a lawn mower.

I would expect that things would be the same if we were living together or married, and I think we would be happy with that. Even now, I bring him "man" things to do. Just last night, he helped me change my car headlight. And by helped, I mean I stood next to him and held stuff while he did it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## WorkingOnMe

If I wanted to mow my own grass I wouldn't have had kids.


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## lovelygirl

Andy1001 said:


> I agree with you on this.When this question is asked the answer always seems to be what it is my wife can DO for me,what does she BRING financially and physically to the marriage.It seems to me that some men are preparing for divorce before they have the wedding.I want nothing financially from my partner,I trust her to be faithful,she has given me a beautiful baby and I have my house paid for and earn enough money for both of us.Everything else is just small stuff and you should never sweat the small stuff.


Not everyone has the same financial state that you have. There are a many men out there who can't financially support themselves, their wife, the kids and the house...without the financial help of their wife. 

It's not small stuff anymore when money is tight.


----------



## lovelygirl

happysnappy said:


> I think this is true for both men and women. In my late teens and early 20's I was looking for someone nice to look at that was fun to spend time with. After kids I realized that I needed a provider, confidant and leader as a husband. In my late 30's it hasn't changed much. This is why I don't believe it's good to get married so young
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Even women have changed nowadays. They don't accept to be catered by their husbands as it makes them feel weak. 
In case of divorce, they are able to handle the financial situation without being codependent on their soon-to-be-ex-husband. 

Personally, if I had to depend myself on my partner, it'd make me feel invaluable. My ego doesn't allow me to depend on him plus in his eyes I wouldn't be that respectful.

Deep down, men generally want a life partner, not another "kid" (their wife) to take care of as it feels like a burden for them.


----------



## Andy1001

lovelygirl said:


> Not everyone has the same financial state that you have. There are a many men out there who can't financially support themselves, their wife, the kids and the house...without the financial help of their wife.
> 
> It's not small stuff anymore when money is tight.


I accept your point but she asked for everyone's opinions and everyone's life is different.You may think I have a charmed life but things have happened in my life that I wouldn't wish on anyone.


----------



## lovelygirl

ConanHub said:


> A wife for me is simply that. Anything she brought to the table, I obviously accepted because I loved her.
> 
> Be she a high earner / career woman or homemaker.
> 
> We will work it out.
> 
> A woman that can attract me enough to marry her has everything she needs.
> 
> The rest is just details.
> 
> No hard and fast rules where I'm concerned.
> 
> Partners but not identical in all aspects.
> 
> I do most of the cooking and she does most of the cleaning.
> 
> We both take care of the dog.
> 
> We both love screwing each others' brains out.
> 
> I have always earned more but if her workday is longer than mine, I have dinner ready and sometimes a mineral bath, waiting for her.


^That would be ideal for me.

Depending on the couple's workload, the partners share the house-chores, cooking, washing ...without prejudicing who must do this or that. It should depend on the day, situation...etc. Both should contribute in a way or another. 

It's both unattractive when men DON'T do any chores at all just like it's unattractive when they do ALL the chores in the house. The same goes for wives.

Balance is the key.


----------



## lovelygirl

katiecrna said:


> I also think that us women need to stop trying to do it all and make our men step up. I guess it's true that we teach people how to treat us in a way.
> 
> I'm going to start to make my husband help me clean up after dinner. That is when we actually have dinner together which is rare.
> Right now I'm refusing to fold his laundry and put it away. (He hasn't done it yet, it still lays clean and unfolded in the laundry basket).
> 
> I feel like I take on the "help" and I am no longer this sexy self with a life. But it's my fault because I feel like I know he isnt going to do anything so I take it upon myself to do everything. I am really sabotaging myself and I need to stop. I'm a work in progress!


It's really important to send him the message that you won't do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING anymore.
You're not his mom, nor his servant. Sacrificing this much will make him lose attraction as he notices that you can put up with many things.


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> Man there is nothing better than a simple, organized, well balanced life. *dreaming


That is not life. It's as fairy tail as Disney. Life is crazy, tiring and messy. Marriage is hard work and the most rewarding thing you can do. Enjoy the ride.


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> I appreciate this. But do you ever think that when your wife comes home she wants to relax and unwind too? I think that if something has to get done and no one else does it I have to do it. Plain and simple. The last thing I want to do after a 12hr shift is cook. But guess what? No one else is going to do It so I have to. This is what causes resentment in marriage.
> A lot of women would love to come home and relax like men do. But all we see is our to-do-list and it's not going to get done unless we do it. And that's why I believe women at the end of the day don't have energy for sex.


Cook 2 meals on the weekends then alternate through the week. That is what we do, then he can heat it up for you and vice versa.


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## lovelygirl

katiecrna said:


> I appreciate this. But do you ever think that when your wife comes home she wants to relax and unwind too? I think that if something has to get done and no one else does it I have to do it. Plain and simple. The last thing I want to do after a 12hr shift is cook. But guess what? No one else is going to do It so I have to. This is what causes resentment in marriage.
> A lot of women would love to come home and relax like men do. But all we see is our to-do-list and it's not going to get done unless we do it. And that's why I believe women at the end of the day don't have energy for sex.


Start detaching yourself from the kitchen...slowly. One day cook and on the other one, don't. Let him know that you feel tired just like him and expect him to show his talent on the kitchen as well.


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## lovelygirl

sokillme said:


> Cook 2 meals on the weekends then alternate through the week. That is what we do, then he can heat it up for you and vice versa.


Cooking 2 meals on the weekend takes time...takes away your weekend when all you need to do is more relaxation..instead of spending double time in the kitchen.


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## MEM2020

Katie,
M2 wanted to be a SAHM. And she was great at it. I worked extra hard so that she could do so - without us having any financial stress. 

So - M2 kind of accepted that and prioritized accordingly. 

Attraction level was good - and then - to be honest we had kind of an understanding which was that outside the bedroom she had a disproportionate level of control and inside the bedroom I had a disproportionate level of control.

That said we are both good to each other. When my work schedule was bad she made life 1950s style easy for me. 

Now that my work schedule is easier - she comes home to dinner on the table and after dinner I clean up. Because I can tell she is a bit tired. And I'm not. 

I like taking care of M2. 

And I'm only saying this to reinforce the concept that love is more important than fair. My comp is more than double hers. 

It my schedule is easier. So I try to make her life easier at home. That feels right to me. 







sokillme said:


> I guess I am going to be the only one commenting on sex?





katiecrna said:


> I think that when life is at it's busiest (my guess is when you have young kids, and careers/jobs) chores, and Efficiency of time is critical. We always have a to-do-list, some which can be ignored. But when you have young kids you can't ignore your to-do-list and so your time and energy goes toward getting all that stuff done as opposed to spending quality time with husband and wife. I think this is the time when men feel their wives neglect them sexually and women feel they have no energy to even think about Sex let alone have sex.
> 
> 
> To me it seems this time I described above is a difficult time for couples. It seems there are a lot of posts on TAM about their unhappiness with their marriage or lack of sex.
> 
> I also think this is the time when resentment can build up because of how tough this time is. (Correct me if I'm wrong).
> 
> This is my observation... I am not at that point in my life yet. Would love to hear from those who experienced it.


----------



## katiecrna

lovelygirl said:


> Cooking 2 meals on the weekend takes time...takes away your weekend when all you need to do is more relaxation..instead of spending double time in the kitchen.




I do think that meal prepping takes time but saves you more time in the long run.


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> I do think that meal prepping takes time but saves you more time in the long run.


You can do it for fun together on the weekends without being exhausted. 

Here is the thing though, you married a brain surgeon right? That means he is going to be very busy and is a high achiever. In a lot of ways it's like marrying a pro athlete. That is really not a 9 to 5 lifestyle at least not at first.


----------



## katiecrna

sokillme said:


> You can do it for fun together on the weekends without being exhausted.
> 
> Here is the thing though, you married a brain surgeon right? That means he is going to be very busy and is a high achiever. In a lot of ways it's like marrying a pro athlete. That is really not a 9 to 5 lifestyle at least not at first.




Cardiothoracic surgeon 
I know, eventually we will pay for housekeepers and stuff. But until then...


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## MEM2020

We had a very brief discussion about babies and night time and sleep.

We both agreed that M2 could always catch up on any missing sleep during nap times the next day. I couldn't. And I did not work as effectively when sleep deprived. This is just practical stuff. 

All I know is M2 created a terrific environment - allowed me to focus hard on work and get us into a good spot. And part of that was by doing it while being nice about doing it. 






sokillme said:


> You can do it for fun together on the weekends without being exhausted.
> 
> Here is the thing though, you married a brain surgeon right? That means he is going to be very busy and is a high achiever. In a lot of ways it's like marrying a pro athlete. That is really not a 9 to 5 lifestyle at least not at first.


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## katiecrna

As long as there is appreciation shown on both sides instead of expectation being a 1950s housewife is all good.


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## happysnappy

Young at Heart said:


> It seems most are talking about what is the current Cosmo-girl or Esquire vision of an ideal wife.
> 
> 
> 
> For me there is something far more profound in what you posted.
> 
> 
> 
> What I have wanted in a wife has changed over the 46 years of marriage as our situations have changed.
> 
> 
> 
> When I was a dirt poor college graduate student, my wife helped support us financially (I had multiple jobs at and outside the university and had a scholarship to do my part).
> 
> 
> 
> When we had children and she stayed home to take care of them, I wanted a wife who would take care of them so I could focus on being a good provider and make sure that the mortgage payments were always made on time.
> 
> 
> 
> When the children were in school she went back to work and she wanted me to be their sports coach after school, on weekends, and I wanted her to give me the time to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> When the kids left home for college and careers and we became empty nesters, I wanted someone to reconnect with and share time together. The concept of shared recreational interests became something that I really got to understand. She also wanted to go back to graduate school and really advance her career. I supported her financially and spent weekends doing things had helping proof read her thesis and research papers.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that we are established in both our careers and financially very comfortable and planning retirement, we each want a travel partner and someone to share grand-parenting duties with.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the things that David Schnarch points out is that marriage is one of the hardest things two people can do, if done correctly. The reason is that we are two separate people, who have come together to form a single social family unit. We each grow and emotionally mature at different rates. That creates conflict between us that stresses one or the other and pushes or pulls them to emotionally grow or to reach a compromise that both can live with.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, your newly wedded friend is struggling with huge emotional growth, but more huge (since she didn't live wither her husband before marriage or have sex with him) is that she and him have had to change (aka grow) even more than most newly married couples in the first few months of marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Marriage especially at the start is a huge change.
> 
> 
> 
> Now to transition to what most are talking about. If one partner in a marriage is a clear leader and the other a clear follower, then the transition is perhaps less. Once upon a time when both husband and wife lead a subsistence existence either on a farm or industrial city setting, then self-fulfillment wasn't really an option. In such times a clear marital leader and clear follower probably reduced stress and clearly defined gender roles helped reduce the stress of marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Today, self-fulfillment is constantly being stressed in the media and culture. Gender roles are also more fluid with stay at home dads, and corporate executive wives. So in today's culture yes, Getting a Life allows for more self fulfillment, independence, etc.




This post is my ideal and we are pretty close to the same pattern. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## happysnappy

lovelygirl said:


> Even women have changed nowadays. They don't accept to be catered by their husbands as it makes them feel weak.
> 
> In case of divorce, they are able to handle the financial situation without being codependent on their soon-to-be-ex-husband.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, if I had to depend myself on my partner, it'd make me feel invaluable. My ego doesn't allow me to depend on him plus in his eyes I wouldn't be that respectful.
> 
> 
> 
> Deep down, men generally want a life partner, not another "kid" (their wife) to take care of as it feels like a burden for them.




I'm in no way implying that I want to be dependent but someone has to lead and someone has to support. Ideally both would be supportive of each other. I work 2 jobs and help raise more kids than the average family, I can fix cars, plumb a house, drywall and run machinery. There is nothing wrong with any of those things. I stayed home for many years and honestly wanted to work part time to help contribute and to have adult interaction in my life. We struggled a lot with the change in responsibility when I took a part time job. He wants me to be home so projects will get done. I selfishly need the break and he is supportive of that and picks up the slack. I'm lucky I guess. Not everyone is obviously. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Young at Heart

happysnappy said:


> This post is my ideal and we are pretty close to the same pattern....


One of the things that the Sex Therapist who helped save our marriage did was have us visualize what we wanted our marriage and sex life to be in 5 years, 10 years and 20 years in the future. That got us to thinking about not only where we were, but where we both wanted to be and if that was us together or not.

So, what stage of your relationship are you at? My wife and I are late 60's soon to be 70's. Unless one of us does something really stupid I expect we will see a 50th wedding anniversary.

Good luck to you.


----------



## happysnappy

Young at Heart said:


> One of the things that the Sex Therapist who helped save our marriage did was have us visualize what we wanted our marriage and sex life to be in 5 years, 10 years and 20 years in the future. That got us to thinking about not only where we were, but where we both wanted to be and if that was us together or not.
> 
> 
> 
> So, what stage of your relationship are you at? My wife and I are late 60's soon to be 70's. Unless one of us does something really stupid I expect we will see a 50th wedding anniversary.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck to you.




We are late 30's early 40's and raising a passle of kids age 7-16. We both married other people after knowing each other as kids. We remained friends throughout and got back together years later. We have our issues but he is much better about hearing what I'm saying and working on us in the last year. We definitely battled it out in the beginning over responsibilities but are in a good place now 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020

Katie,

This was a mutual thing - we each did what we were best at. And I consistently tried to show my appreciation for M2. 

Mostly successful in that - I think. And equally true in reverse. 

Sometimes my work schedule was disruptive in unpredictable ways. And M2 would do this thing that was just incredibly lovable. Let's say I was supposed to get home from a trip on Wednesday. Last minute I'm jammed up a couple days. Of course I would call and let her know asap. And I would apologize for being delayed even though it wasn't really my fault. It wasn't my fault 'in the moment', but it sort of was my fault for having that type of job. 

Thing is, I knew what I was coming home to. A kind of scripted thing we did. Big smile, hug, kiss - a pause. Me making this apologetic face - sorry for being two days late. And M2 giving me this devilish smile asking: how are you going to make it up to me? 

Cool thing about that was - half the time I had an idea - half the time she did. 





katiecrna said:


> As long as there is appreciation shown on both sides instead of expectation being a 1950s housewife is all good.


----------



## meson

I married a strong independant woman. When we met she told me about how i needed to think about things differently. It turned out she was right. I wanted a wife that would be a self contributing partner that was intelligent and capable of solving problems and obtaining her goals. She was exactly what I wanted. She has become a respected scientist and I am proud of her. 

Like Mem we had to rethink some things. Her desire to ave kids and be a part of their lives was strong and part of her basic need. So for many years she worked part time to fulfill her needs as mom. She did a great job balancing work with motherhood and during this time she picked up more of the housework that we had split 50-50. But the bottom line was that she was mature enough and not afraid to speak her mind about her needs. She thought she could get working full time and being a mom but she realized her mistake and needed a change. Since we are partners I accommodated her needs as she did mine. 

I think spouses don't really have roles like they used to but rather they do what they need to achieve the lifestyle they want.

The other key thing is that what is ideal for me is not necessarily ideal for another. The point being it is necessary for us to identify and marry those who match our needs and not to settle for anything else.


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## wild jade

1950s was almost 70 years ago. Pass! Bring on the new millennium.


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## She'sStillGotIt

katiecrna said:


> Exactly!! It is a dilemma today. And then you have surveys going around that divorce rate increases as husbands do more chores. Then men complain that women want to divorce and take all their money. It seems we have to do it all, look good doing it, not nag or complain, and have energy to have sex at the end of the day. Something has to give.


That ain't nuthin' new, Katiecrna. That's been a pet peeve of mine for YEARS.

Women are expected to be Super Woman and do it *all* - bring in a paycheck, clean the house, cook the meals, do the food shopping and all menu planning, carry and birth the children then be their primary care taker for life, keep the home fires burning and everything running the way it should, and lavish tons of attention on her oh so deprived husband and become a sex kitten for him at night. Most women don't have time to care for themselves (go to the gym, do their nails, enjoy reading a book, etc. etc.) because they're so damned busy catering to everyone *else* in their lives. And the majority of men think anything THEY do to contribute is 'helping _HER_' and that she should fall on her knees in gratitude and be sure to thank him and give him a reward for doing it.

You have to love the fools who always use the 'equality' argument when they don't want to pay for dates, yet conveniently FORGET all about 'equality' when it comes to expecting a woman to do the overwhelming majority of the domestic chores and child-rearing instead of doing their EQUAL share. Hypocrites.

I've lost count of how many men whine and complain that they're bored and their sex life sucks and they simply don't understand why their wives - who've worked their damned tails off from 6am and have finally fallen into bed at 10pm EXHAUSTED - aren't eager to cater to their every sexual need.


----------



## aine

katiecrna said:


> I didn't want to hijack this thread so I'm starting a new one...
> 
> It seems that what a man wants in a wife has changes throughout the years. I remember learning/thinking/seeing that men kinda wanted a subservient type of wife. One that worked less, was available to him and the family, one that tended to the home and children. And now it seems that men want a more independent wife, one that doesn't NEED help, one that has her own life.
> 
> It seems my husband is like this. Like he wants me to get a life so to speak, have my own thing going on so he doesn't feel guilty when he's not here. He always tells me he just wants me to be happy, like that is his one need. My friend recently got married, and she's this good girl, Christian, virgin, never lived together blah blah. And she is was telling me she is learning how to be a wife to a very laid back husband. It's like she doesn't know what to do, and she wants to do something to please him. I told her it would probably make him happy to see her get her own life so to speak. Anyway, she thinks this notion is really weird and she can't really adjust to it.
> 
> Men... am I wrong in thinking this is what you want?


I have a tendancy to agree with you Katie. However, what irks me is that it depends on the stage of life. I was a career person who wasnt planning on getting pregnant after 3 years of marriage, my H was estatic me not so. He would complain I was always working and never available to be at home or with him before I got pregnant. 
We decided to have the baby.
I gave up my career (he wasn't willing to) though he was earning less than me- he did step up to the plate while I took care of household, supported his career and moved around the world for his career
However, when kids grew up he expected me to get a life, my own job, career etc and basically left me to it, with little support. It is not easy for a 40 something woman who has been out of the workforce for ten years. 
While his life has been stable, supported, etc mine has been unstable with little support.
I am getting more qualifications, have a good job but feel there is little understanding or support for me having to go through so many different phases while he sails along. 

I talk to my friends and they have husbands with similar mentalities, their expectations change as time goes by, yet the H sees himself as the provider, going to work coming back but the wife must do it all and manage through so many cycles in the life of the family unit.

in the long run it is better for a wife to have her own life throughout imo.


----------



## Satya

Odo and I are both old-fashioned in certain respects. He is 15 years older and I'm by no means a 1950s housewife, but have always assumed that certain duties are my responsibility and I'm happy to do them.

By no means would I think he is sexist. Neither do I believe that I am, although we each have certain "expectations" of our own gender and of the opposite.

Without going into detail, I think we each do too much, however I am quite aware of when I need to have balance in my life. I know I can't do it all and I'm not going to waste my energy and my health trying. I'm going to do what I want to do and what I know I can do reasonably, and I understand that as my priorities in life shift, so must my responsibilities.


----------



## aine

Andy1001 said:


> What are your feelings about housekeepers if it's affordable.


Go for it! I live in Asia so I have gone for it! It relieves a lot of the annoyances about who does what in a relationship, leaving more time for other things to make life more fulfilling:grin2:


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## Andy1001

aine said:


> Go for it! I live in Asia so I have gone for it! It relieves a lot of the annoyances about who does what in a relationship, leaving more time for other things to make life more fulfilling:grin2:


I allready went for it,I've had housekeepers for years.When you hear the subject being discussed I feel like a cross between a puppy killer and a war criminal.These women are paid well and I have never had a complaint from them.They clean,cook,do my laundry and that's it.One of their husbands owns a landscaping business and he works for me a couple of days a week during the summer and maybe two days a month during winter.If they didn't work for me they would be working for someone else,that's how I look at it.


----------



## SunCMars

ConanHub said:


> Oh. I forgot.
> 
> I kill or eradicate any pests be they rodent, insect or anything in between. LOL!
> 
> And...all car related issues or home repairs and I do more than half the shopping.


Yah, yah..

We ain't Doctors.

Brutes and Neanderthals we so be.

Everything under the Sun we do. Everything the Shes in our lives want done gets done. Uh...mostly, so.

We can stitch a sock or a shirt.

But not a wound or an appendix remove.

The physicians get the plum, we get the sweet strawberries. It all works out in the End...Game, the Roundy-Bout Dance.

And for none does none deliver. How big is your Honey-Do list?

How big is your bag of skill sets? Conan-SCM have big bags full.


----------



## naiveonedave

katiecrna said:


> I appreciate this. But do you ever think that when your wife comes home she wants to relax and unwind too? I think that if something has to get done and no one else does it I have to do it. Plain and simple. The last thing I want to do after a 12hr shift is cook. But guess what? No one else is going to do It so I have to. This is what causes resentment in marriage.
> A lot of women would love to come home and relax like men do. But all we see is our to-do-list and it's not going to get done unless we do it. And that's why I believe women at the end of the day don't have energy for sex.


she works ~5 hours a day. I work about 9-10. Particulars matter...


----------



## katiecrna

naiveonedave said:


> she works ~5 hours a day. I work about 9-10. Particulars matter...




I agree it does.

Some may argue that total hours don't matter but timing does. I think sometimes we shouldn't quantify/qualify each other and use that as a reason not to do something. 

Imo if someone works 5am-3pm and the other person works 12-6pm I personally would expect the 5-3 person to make dinner regardless of working more hours than the other for the simple fact that they are home first. 

I guess everyone thinks different. Sometimes I think that if you have the time to do something you should do it. Not in a way that makes you kill your self doing everything but in a practical way. Vs using how many hours you work and how much money you make as excuses not to do something even if you have the time to do it.


----------



## EllisRedding

katiecrna said:


> I feel like this whole independent wife who has her own life thing is hard to achieve and casts impossible expectations on women. Maybe I'm wrong?
> *So we're suppose to be independent, work, confident, have our own life and work, dress nice and whatever, but at the same time we have to cook/clean/take care of the kids, and still have time to look sexy while having wild sex with our husbands all the time. It seems like we have to do everything. Am I wrong?*


To be fair, the above bolded seems to be a bit of a stretch and an exaggeration. I think the whole point with wanting an equal or someone who is independent is the W should not be expected to be everything, just like the H shouldn't be. 

We all have our strengths and weaknesses, so ideally you want to find someone who helps balance you out, who compliments you. 

If I go back to the opening post, you seem to group a W who works less, tends to the home/children, as subservient. I honestly don't see that in the least, and find nothing appealing about that (maybe it works for those who prefer more of a father/daughter type relationship, IDK). Currently my W is a SAHM. Does that make her subservient to me, not in the least. Simply put, we both have roles to play (both as a couple and as parents), and currently me working fulltime with her being a SAHM makes the most sense. She is just as equal as I am, and we are just following the roles that work best for our situation.


----------



## katiecrna

EllisRedding said:


> If I go back to the opening post, you seem to group a W who works less, tends to the home/children, as subservient. I honestly don't see that in the least, and find nothing appealing about that (maybe it works for those who prefer more of a father/daughter type relationship, IDK). Currently my W is a SAHM. Does that make her subservient to me, not in the least. Simply put, we both have roles to play (both as a couple and as parents), and currently me working fulltime with her being a SAHM makes the most sense. She is just as equal as I am, and we are just following the roles that work best for our situation.



I just typed out this whole big thing rebutting you then I deleted it because I caught my prejudices. 

I had a bad experience with SAHMs (my mom) and it's shaped my thoughts of them. And I mean SAHM for "careers" or years and years not SAHM for a couple months until the baby goes to school.

So anyway... your right. Being a SAHM doesn't have to be subservient, or less-than anything. But it COULD cause problems with power shifts, expectations, manipulation, self esteem blah blah blah. Sorry it's a sore spot and a sensitive subject for me, I'm learning not to project lol.


----------



## Keke24

Andy1001 said:


> I allready went for it,I've had housekeepers for years.When you hear the subject being discussed I feel like a cross between a puppy killer and a war criminal.These women are paid well and I have never had a complaint from them.They clean,cook,do my laundry and that's it.One of their husbands owns a landscaping business and he works for me a couple of days a week during the summer and maybe two days a month during winter.If they didn't work for me they would be working for someone else,that's how I look at it.


Are you suggesting that some people have a thing against hiring housekeepers?


----------



## katiecrna

Keke24 said:


> Are you suggesting that some people have a thing against hiring housekeepers?




100% 
You didn't know this? I was raised in a small town that shame women for many things. And it's women doing the shaming, to each other and to themselves. I went to a small Christian college and say it there too, as well as from my family.

Many women feel shame and guilt for hiring a housekeeper. They have it engrained in their head that it's their job and hiring someone to do their job means they aren't good enough. Look it up I'm sure there are articles on it. 

Where I was raised... you don't hire housekeeper, and you sure as hell don't bring your kids to day care. Women are such haters on women, as well as the expectation we place on ourselves. Women feel guilt for having a house keeper, asking for help with the baby, bottle feeding etc. it's engrained in our head (at least some small town folk) that we have to do it all ourselves.


----------



## EllisRedding

katiecrna said:


> I just typed out this whole big thing rebutting you then I deleted it because I caught my prejudices.
> 
> I had a bad experience with SAHMs (my mom) and it's shaped my thoughts of them. And I mean SAHM for "careers" or years and years not* SAHM for a couple months until the baby goes to school.*
> 
> So anyway... your right. Being a SAHM doesn't have to be subservient, or less-than anything. But it COULD cause problems with power shifts, expectations, manipulation, self esteem blah blah blah. Sorry it's a sore spot and a sensitive subject for me, I'm learning not to project lol.


Well, maybe to help clarify your prejudices, per the bolded I don't think any woman considers herself a SAHM when she has maternity leave which is what your bolded implies :wink2:

Also, to give you a little background, when my W and I started dating in college, we never imagined a point where either one of us would be a SAHP. When we got married, we never imagined this. When we first had kids we never imagined this. Eventually, by the time we had the 3rd kid it made the most sense for my W to become a SAHM for several reasons (she hated her nursing job, financially we are at a point where her income isn't needed, the exorbitant cost of paying for daycare or getting a nanny, and simply put this would allow for a better quality of life for everyone). We adjusted our roles to better fit our situation. 

Sure, being a SAHM COULD cause problems with power shifts, expectations, manipulation, etc... Guess what though, having two working parents COULD cause the same exact problem. It has much more to do with the people involved then the situation itself.


----------



## katiecrna

I have heard multiple women from my home town talk about "those women" or "those types of families" that use day care. Always with the underlying thought that they value career and money over their children. It's crazy.


----------



## katiecrna

EllisRedding said:


> Well, maybe to help clarify your prejudices, per the bolded I don't think any woman considers herself a SAHM when she has maternity leave which is what your bolded implies :wink2:
> 
> .



It's interesting because I have heard people define SAHM differently. To me it means the mother is not working any job outside the home. I've heard people use the term SAHM to mothers working part time or per diem. Some people temporarily stay home until their child is pre-school age or at an age they feel comfortable going back to work like one year old. To me, that isn't a SAHM.


----------



## Keke24

katiecrna said:


> 100%
> You didn't know this? I was raised in a small town that shame women for many things. And it's women doing the shaming, to each other and to themselves. I went to a small Christian college and say it there too, as well as from my family.
> 
> Many women feel shame and guilt for hiring a housekeeper. They have it engrained in their head that it's their job and hiring someone to do their job means they aren't good enough. Look it up I'm sure there are articles on it.
> 
> Where I was raised... you don't hire housekeeper, and you sure as hell don't bring your kids to day care. Women are such haters on women, as well as the expectation we place on ourselves. Women feel guilt for having a house keeper, asking for help with the baby, bottle feeding etc. it's engrained in our head (at least some small town folk) that we have to do it all ourselves.


This is news to me. Over here housekeepers (helpers, is the term used) are quite common and very affordable. 

Particularly in wealthy neighborhoods, the culture surrounding "the help" is still very much the same as it was in slavery. You see them and the gardeners travelling to and from the homes. The women gossiping to each other about the lives and infidelities of their employers. The gardeners/guards boasting about their employers wealth, properties and dogs. It's quite fascinating watching them go by.


----------



## FeministInPink

Andy1001 said:


> I allready went for it,I've had housekeepers for years.When you hear the subject being discussed I feel like a cross between a puppy killer and a war criminal.These women are paid well and I have never had a complaint from them.They clean,cook,do my laundry and that's it.One of their husbands owns a landscaping business and he works for me a couple of days a week during the summer and maybe two days a month during winter.If they didn't work for me they would be working for someone else,that's how I look at it.


I have a cousin who works cleaning people's houses. She says most of the people she worked for are/were really nice, and it's way better than working cleaning in a hotel. (She says that she's seen some stuff in hotel rooms that are WAY GROSS.) There are some people who clean everything before she gets there. And there is one [older] lady who doesn't really have anything that needs cleaning... she is lonely, and basically pays my cousin to just come and talk to her while she does whatever little cleaning there is. She has my cousin come in like 4 times a week.

She's worked for the same clients for literally years, and they think of her like family. Last summer, she finally got the nerve to leave a thirty-year abusive marriage. (She's actually not MY cousin; she's married to my Dad's cousin, and my Dad's cousin is a grade-A *******. His parents--her in-laws--had been trying to get her to leave him for years, and they were prepared to do whatever they needed to to protect her and take care of her. We all love her so, so much.) Anyway, it turns out that her clients were kind of instrumental in this--they were all encouraging her to leave him, and one of her clients got her a lawyer, and they're taking care of the lawyer fees, and are checking in on her. She doesn't really have any friends or social circle--her husband made sure of it--so they've committed to being her support network (I guess they all know each other?). It's really kind of amazing.



Keke24 said:


> Are you suggesting that some people have a thing against hiring housekeepers?


I kind of have a thing against hiring housekeepers. I think it's the expense more than anything. I also don't like the idea of someone/a stranger being in my space. I'm even iffy about housekeeping when I'm staying at a hotel. I'm super private. And also, I feel like I'm a grown-up, I should be able to take care of my own damn space. Maybe, if I had more space and more money, I would go for it. 

It's a personal thing. I'm not against hiring housekeepers in general, and if someone has the money to do it, that's their prerogative.


----------



## naiveonedave

katiecrna said:


> I have heard multiple women from my home town talk about "those women" or "those types of families" that use day care. Always with the underlying thought that they value career and money over their children. It's crazy.


If I had a $1 for every time I heard someone bash SAHM's, I would be retired on the beach and not able to reply to this thread. LOL

IMO, either choice that a married couple makes about SAHP or not is totally up to them. In many cases, I think women feel pressured to NOT be SAHM. And that is wrong. In many cases the financial need is that both parents need to work, I get that. But in many (probably most, actually, as most people in the US have too big a house, eat out too much and waste a pile of $) could get by with one working parent.


----------



## Keke24

FeministInPink said:


> I have a cousin who works cleaning people's houses. She says most of the people she worked for are/were really nice, and it's way better than working cleaning in a hotel. (She says that she's seen some stuff in hotel rooms that are WAY GROSS.) There are some people who clean everything before she gets there. And there is one [older] lady who doesn't really have anything that needs cleaning... she is lonely, and basically pays my cousin to just come and talk to her while she does whatever little cleaning there is. She has my cousin come in like 4 times a week.
> 
> *I've worked in housekeeping, she's right it's downright disgusting. Try walking into a room after a fecal fetish party...*
> 
> I kind of have a thing against hiring housekeepers. I think it's the expense more than anything. I also don't like the idea of someone/a stranger being in my space. I'm even iffy about housekeeping when I'm staying at a hotel. I'm super private. And also, I feel like I'm a grown-up, I should be able to take care of my own damn space. Maybe, if I had more space and more money, I would go for it.
> 
> It's a personal thing. I'm not against hiring housekeepers in general, and if someone has the money to do it, that's their prerogative.
> *
> I can definitely understand the independence aspect of not being interested in a helper. And the idea of opening one's house to a stranger. Because the housekeeping culture is so strong here, there's a lot of trust in the profession. Usually children grow up with the same housekeeper for decades and it's likely that when they become adults, their helper is the daughter/relative or close friend of their childhood helper.*


----------



## FeministInPink

katiecrna said:


> 100%
> You didn't know this? I was raised in a small town that shame women for many things. And it's women doing the shaming, to each other and to themselves. I went to a small Christian college and say it there too, as well as from my family.
> 
> Many women feel shame and guilt for hiring a housekeeper. They have it engrained in their head that it's their job and hiring someone to do their job means they aren't good enough. Look it up I'm sure there are articles on it.
> 
> Where I was raised... you don't hire housekeeper, and you sure as hell don't bring your kids to day care. Women are such haters on women, as well as the expectation we place on ourselves. Women feel guilt for having a house keeper, asking for help with the baby, bottle feeding etc. it's engrained in our head (at least some small town folk) that we have to do it all ourselves.


This is kind of how it was where I grew up. Or it might have just been my mom and her messed up way of looking at things. She was jealous of people that had more money than we had (the type that might hire a housekeeper!), and so she was very judgmental about them and looked down her nose at them. Reverse snobbery in a way.



katiecrna said:


> I have heard multiple women from my home town talk about "those women" or "those types of families" that use day care. Always with the underlying thought that they value career and money over their children. It's crazy.


This sort of thing makes me mad. My sister worked full-time while her two oldest were young and in day care because she had to. She would have given anything to be at home with them instead, but it wasn't feasible, financially. they had their third last year, and now that the oldest is in school and her husband's income is more stable (with benefits!), she can finally be a SAHM. 

Gossip mongers are miserable people.


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## EllisRedding

katiecrna said:


> It's interesting because I have heard people define SAHM differently. To me it means the mother is not working any job outside the home. I've heard people use the term SAHM to mothers working part time or per diem. Some people temporarily stay home until their child is pre-school age or at an age they feel comfortable going back to work like one year old. To me, that isn't a SAHM.


I would say stop feeding in to the gossipers 

I would consider someone who stays at home temporarily until their child is pre school age as a SAHP, when you consider that could easily be 3-4+ years. 

Either way though, who cares what label they use? My point earlier, as long as they are doing what they feel is best for their family and marriage (which could mean working part time, full time, being a SAH, etc...), that is what matters most.

My only issue is when one person looks down on another, and I have seen working parents do this to SAHs and vice versa. 

Here is an interesting perspective. My Mom worked full time. Financially growing up my parents needed to 
both work. She has it in her head that this is just what you need to do (which as I stated above, this is not what is needed for my W and I). Now that my W is a SAHM, she has made snide comments (not so much anymore), asking her things like "When are you going back to work", or asking about things getting done since I guess the assumption is a SAHM has all this free time to just lounge around doing nothing. I think I finally got my W to just brush off these comments. The ironic part of this, now that my Mom is semi retired, she has had a chance to see our kids at school events, and has made comments about how great it is b/c she never got to do stuff like that when I was a kid. So on one hand, she will look down on my W for being a SAHM, but then on the other hand comments about missing thing when she was a Mom b/c she had to work :scratchhead:


----------



## Andy1001

Keke24 said:


> Are you suggesting that some people have a thing against hiring housekeepers?


When my gf and her son were preparing to move in to my house there was a massive blowout between her and her mother.Her mothers main argument was my gf would spend all her time keeping my house clean.I told her I had a housekeeper (I have two) and I didn't expect my gf to do any cleaning or laundry.I couldn't believe her reaction,you would think I had killed someone.She started taking about slave labour,penal wages,she accused me of acting like the lord of the Manor House etc.At that stage I paid them seventeen dollars an hour and that is well over the going rate for household staff.Since my gf and her son moved in I raised it to twenty two dollars an hour to allow for the extra work.I trust them both one hundred percent (They are sisters) and know that nothing they see in my home will be gossiped about and I often leave cash lying around and they have never taken a cent.It is all I can do to get them to take home leftover food that otherwise would go to waste.
I probably doesn't needed household staff but I WANT someone to do the day to day running of my house and this system worked fine.I pay more than I could but they know that and are very loyal to me.


----------



## Keke24

Andy1001 said:


> When my gf and her son were preparing to move in to my house there was a massive blowout between her and her mother.Her mothers main argument was my gf would spend all her time keeping my house clean.I told her I had a housekeeper (I have two) and I didn't expect my gf to do any cleaning or laundry.I couldn't believe her reaction,you would think I had killed someone.*She started taking about slave labour,penal wages,she accused me of acting like the lord of the Manor House etc.At that stage I paid them seventeen dollars an hour and that is well over the going rate for household staff.*Since my gf and her son moved in I raised it to twenty two dollars an hour to allow for the extra work.I trust them both one hundred percent (They are sisters) and know that nothing they see in my home will be gossiped about and I often leave cash lying around and they have never taken a cent.It is all I can do to get them to take home leftover food that otherwise would go to waste.
> I probably doesn't needed household staff but I WANT someone to do the day to day running of my house and this system worked fine.I pay more than I could but they know that and are very loyal to me.


I'm guessing she never stays in hotels?? That's where the real slave labour exists! Where I worked housekeeping staff made minimum wage at $8.50/hour. That meant the housekeepers and housemen were making $4/room! It doesn't vary much across states and countries.

Note to all: if you ever go to a hotel, please tip your housekeeper, just be nice to them or don't bash the room too much.


----------



## katiecrna

Yea women are haters. It's them vs us mentality and what we do is better. Whatever. 
I don't care if a women wants to be a SAHM it's their choice. But it's in my nature to kind of squirm a bit, not because I think working mothers are better, or anything negative about them but because how I was raised and me being a feminist I just always think everyone, especially women need to be independent, or at least be able to be independent. 
I hate when some women live with their head in the clouds and let the man deal with the finances and not have a clue what's going on. Women if not self sufficient can end up in really bad places. (Of course men can too).

My aunt just lost her husband unexpectedly. She didn't work. Now apparently there is a second mortgage on the house that she didn't know about and all these financial problems and she found herself to be in a really bad place. Not only losing a spouse, but realizing that you have been completely dependent on him for years and you don't know what to do next. She is 65.


----------



## Andy1001

Keke24 said:


> I'm guessing she never stays in hotels?? That's where the real slave labour exists! Where I worked housekeeping staff made minimum wage at $8.50/hour. That meant the housekeepers and housemen were making $4/room! It doesn't vary much across states and countries.
> 
> Note to all: if you ever go to a hotel, please tip your housekeeper, just be nice to them or don't bash the room too much.


A few years ago I did some work for the mighty Disney company in Florida and they put me up in the Grand Floridian hotel in the Disney compound.At the time my room was around six hundred dollars a night and the staff started off at one dollar and eleven cents an hour.Yes $1.11 an hour.A bottle of Bud in the bar was eight bucks and the price of food was equally expensive.Orlando had some crazy minimum wage structure that let them get away with this.I remember one of the servers telling me that because part of their salary was tips they were paid a very low basic wage.The paradox was because everything was so expensive,people didn't feel inclined to tip heavily so it was the lowest paid who suffered.


----------



## uhtred

We used to do our own housekeeping. We'd spend almost all of every sunday at it - nearly half of our total free time. We finally realized that it made far more sense to hire a service. It costs us much less than we earn per hour, and provides a job for the cleaners. We leave reasonable tips to help them out. Seems like a win for everyone. 




Andy1001 said:


> I allready went for it,I've had housekeepers for years.When you hear the subject being discussed I feel like a cross between a puppy killer and a war criminal.These women are paid well and I have never had a complaint from them.They clean,cook,do my laundry and that's it.One of their husbands owns a landscaping business and he works for me a couple of days a week during the summer and maybe two days a month during winter.If they didn't work for me they would be working for someone else,that's how I look at it.


----------



## SunCMars

katiecrna said:


> 100%
> You didn't know this? I was raised in a small town that shame women for many things. And it's women doing the shaming, to each other and to themselves. I went to a small Christian college and say it there too, as well as from my family.
> 
> Many women feel shame and guilt for hiring a housekeeper. They have it engrained in their head that it's their job and hiring someone to do their job means they aren't good enough. Look it up I'm sure there are articles on it.
> 
> Where I was raised... you don't hire housekeeper, and you sure as hell don't bring your kids to day care. Women are such haters on women, as well as the expectation we place on ourselves. Women feel guilt for having a house keeper, asking for help with the baby, bottle feeding etc. it's ingrained in our head (at least some small town folk) that we have to do it all ourselves.


Some men have this "shaming thing" going on, also. It comes from within, not without, as in your stated instance.

If my wife tells me that she is going to hire a landscaping crew, carpenters, plumbers, fencers, electricians, cabinet installers, floor installers...I go bonkers!
My response is instant. It is a big Red Azz Button on top of my head. Instant fuse blowing.

Why? I can do these things as good as the pros. 

Now if it comes to "major" concrete work, bricklaying, fancy glass cutting or replacing the roof, I will defer to contractors...... I have repaired and re-shingled the garage roof, twice. 

When my wife brings up this touchy subject, I counter with: "Well!, I am going to hire a cook and a housekeeper, I do not like the way you handle those things".
Rather than get angry, she smiles and says "OK".......Grrr.


----------



## Ynot

Funny thread. Started off asking about the ideal wife and evolved into a thread about the merits of hiring a housekeeper.
As for the ideal wife? Well, I think we all have our own version of ideal. What might work for me may not work for you. So again the best advice is to just be yourself and you will wind up where you are supposed to be and with the person you are supposed to be. The ideal will be realized
As for housekeepers, groundskeepers etc. My opinion is what a giant waste of money and time. I simply don't understand why so many people live to work rather than work to live. I see so many people chasing the almighty dollar in order to have more and better and then never having the time to enjoy any of it. No thanks, it takes all of about a 1/2 an hour to clean my house. Another hour to do yard work. I throw away more time typing responses on internet forums than it takes to take care of me and whatever messes I make. As far as I am concerned hiring "staff" to maintain your day to day life is just laziness and greed. Such a first world problem.
I take a lot more pride in doing something myself, stepping back and being able to say "I did that", than writing a check to have some one else do it for me.


----------



## katiecrna

SunCMars said:


> Some men have this "shaming thing" going on, also. It comes from within, not without, as in your stated instance.
> 
> 
> 
> If my wife tells me that she is going to hire a landscaping crew, carpenters, plumbers, fencers, electricians, cabinet installers, floor installers...I go bonkers!
> 
> My response is instant. It is a big Red Azz Button on top of my head. Instant fuse blowing.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? I can do these things as good as the pros.
> 
> 
> 
> Now if it comes to "major" concrete work, bricklaying, fancy glass cutting or replacing the roof, I will defer to contractors...... I have repaired and re-shingled the garage roof, twice.
> 
> 
> 
> When my wife brings up this touchy subject, I counter with: "Well!, I am going to hire a cook and a housekeeper, I do not like the way you handle those things".
> 
> Rather than get angry, she smiles and says "OK".......Grrr.




Hahaha
It's not about being able to do it. It's about time/energy/stress saved from doing it and spending that time and energy toward something more important and better for your mental health lol.


----------



## katiecrna

Ynot said:


> Funny thread. Started off asking about the ideal wife and evolved into a thread about the merits of hiring a housekeeper.
> 
> As for the ideal wife? Well, I think we all have our own version of ideal. What might work for me may not work for you. So again the best advice is to just be yourself and you will wind up where you are supposed to be and with the person you are supposed to be. The ideal will be realized
> 
> As for housekeepers, groundskeepers etc. My opinion is what a giant waste of money and time. I simply don't understand why so many people live to work rather than work to live. I see so many people chasing the almighty dollar in order to have more and better and then never having the time to enjoy any of it. No thanks, it takes all of about a 1/2 an hour to clean my house. Another hour to do yard work. I throw away more time typing responses on internet forums than it takes to take care of me and whatever messes I make. As far as I am concerned hiring "staff" to maintain your day to day life is just laziness and greed. Such a first world problem.
> 
> I take a lot more pride in doing something myself, stepping back and being able to say "I did that", than writing a check to have some one else do it for me.




Interesting view. I'm the opposite I guess. We all have 24hrs in a day. I would pay money to increase that time which is essentially how I view hiring help. 
I don't want my husband to spend time doing something he hates that anyone can do, that stresses him out when he can easily pay someone to do it, spend more time with things that make him happy. If he doesn't mind doing these things then it's different. My husband works hard and if our finances allow I will make it so he won't have to shovel our driveway, or mow our lawn or do our gutters or anything else he hates doing. 

Also so people love their job and get paid well. Some people like to work not because they have to but because they want to. 

I agree that people tend to kill themselves at work to make money to buy things they can't enjoy. But that isn't always the case. Some people like myself would rather have a good lifestyle vs all these materialistic things. And a good lifestyle to me is enjoying my work, hobbies, friends, and family. Not killing myself to keep a good house, yard, blah blah blah. I'd rather have less, do less mundane annoying chores, and have more time doing things I actually love. This is living to me. Not greed.


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## Ynot

katiecrna said:


> Interesting view. I'm the opposite I guess. We all have 24hrs in a day. I would pay money to increase that time which is essentially how I view hiring help.
> I don't want my husband to spend time doing something he hates that anyone can do, that stresses him out when he can easily pay someone to do it, spend more time with things that make him happy. If he doesn't mind doing these things then it's different. My husband works hard and if our finances allow I will make it so he won't have to shovel our driveway, or mow our lawn or do our gutters or anything else he hates doing.
> 
> Also so people love their job and get paid well. Some people like to work not because they have to but because they want to.
> 
> I agree that people tend to kill themselves at work to make money to buy things they can't enjoy. But that isn't always the case. Some people like myself would rather have a good lifestyle vs all these materialistic things. And a good lifestyle to me is enjoying my work, hobbies, friends, and family. Not killing myself to keep a good house, yard, blah blah blah. I'd rather have less, do less mundane annoying chores, and have more time doing things I actually love. This is living to me. Not greed.


Having less and doing more of what you love is exactly what I am advocating. So if you don't love yard work, have less yard. Why work 60 hours a week to have a huge yard if you hate yard work? If you are hiring people to do things that you hate doing, then stop having things you hate taking care of. Now that is greed. "Look at me! I have a huge yard with beautiful gardens! I am so special. What? Oh I didn't do any of it, I just pay some one to take care of them, I don't have time. I am too busy!" If something is important to you, you will make the time for it. If it isn't, stop pretending it is and move to a small condo where it isn't a problem anymore


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## Andy1001

Ynot said:


> Funny thread. Started off asking about the ideal wife and evolved into a thread about the merits of hiring a housekeeper.
> As for the ideal wife? Well, I think we all have our own version of ideal. What might work for me may not work for you. So again the best advice is to just be yourself and you will wind up where you are supposed to be and with the person you are supposed to be. The ideal will be realized
> As for housekeepers, groundskeepers etc. My opinion is what a giant waste of money and time. I simply don't understand why so many people live to work rather than work to live. I see so many people chasing the almighty dollar in order to have more and better and then never having the time to enjoy any of it. No thanks, it takes all of about a 1/2 an hour to clean my house. Another hour to do yard work. I throw away more time typing responses on internet forums than it takes to take care of me and whatever messes I make. As far as I am concerned hiring "staff" to maintain your day to day life is just laziness and greed. Such a first world problem.
> I take a lot more pride in doing something myself, stepping back and being able to say "I did that", than writing a check to have some one else do it for me.


You are entitled to your opinion of course but with respect I disagree with you on some points.
What you call laziness I call common sense.I start work at 3 am and am normally finished by 5am.
During those two hours I make enough money to pay both my housekeepers.For a year.
I have a very big house,I know you are thinking I don't need it.I DONT need it but I want it.
I can see things I have made myself every day and in all humility there is nobody on this forum who has not used products that I developed.
You have found your level and seem to be happy,allow everyone else to find theirs.


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## katiecrna

Ynot said:


> Having less and doing more of what you love is exactly what I am advocating. So if you don't love yard work, have less yard. Why work 60 hours a week to have a huge yard if you hate yard work? If you are hiring people to do things that you hate doing, then stop having things you hate taking care of. Now that is greed. "Look at me! I have a huge yard with beautiful gardens! I am so special. What? Oh I didn't do any of it, I just pay some one to take care of them, I don't have time. I am too busy!" If something is important to you, you will make the time for it. If it isn't, stop pretending it is and move to a small condo where it isn't a problem anymore




But what if I enjoy my yard? What if my kids love playing in the yard? 
You think it's all about looks and trying to impress people. I'm sure some people are like this, but not all. 
Having a huge house that barely gets used I can understand it's a waste. Having a huge yard and pool that barely gets used is a waste. But you can't look at a person and say they have a big house and yard and someone takes care of it therefore they are killing themselves at work to afford something they don't use is judgmental. 
If someone can afford something who cares what they do with the money. If someone wants to kill them selves at work to impress people with their stuff they never use, well that sucks for them.


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## Ynot

Andy1001 said:


> You are entitled to your opinion of course but with respect I disagree with you on some points.
> What you call laziness I call common sense.I start work at 3 am and am normally finished by 5am.
> During those two hours I make enough money to pay both my housekeepers.For a year.
> I have a very big house,I know you are thinking I don't need it.I DONT need it but I want it.
> I can see things I have made myself every day and in all humility there is nobody on this forum who has not used products that I developed.
> You have found your level and seem to be happy,allow everyone else to find theirs.


Did I say you should change? I don't recall that I did, nor would I. To each their own. However, if you only work two hours a day, and can't find time to clean up after yourself. I would say, that is pretty much a first world problem. Go and wallow in your excess, heck swim in your gold like Scrooge McDuck for all I care. I still think it is laziness however you justify it.


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## Ynot

katiecrna said:


> But what if I enjoy my yard? What if my kids love playing in the yard?
> You think it's all about looks and trying to impress people. I'm sure some people are like this, but not all.
> Having a huge house that barely gets used I can understand it's a waste. Having a huge yard and pool that barely gets used is a waste. But you can't look at a person and say they have a big house and yard and someone takes care of it therefore they are killing themselves at work to afford something they don't use is judgmental.
> If someone can afford something who cares what they do with the money. If someone wants to kill them selves at work to impress people with their stuff they never use, well that sucks for them.


I didn't say "they have a big house and yard and someone takes care of it therefore they are killing themselves at work to afford something they don't use " but you sure seem offended by it. Maybe a little too close to home?


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## Andy1001

Ynot said:


> Did I say you should change? I don't recall that I did, nor would I. To each their own. However, if you only work two hours a day, and can't find time to clean up after yourself. I would say, that is pretty much a first world problem. Go and wallow in your excess, heck swim in your gold like Scrooge McDuck for all I care. I still think it is laziness however you justify it.


Is the green eyed monster coming out here.Frankly your jealousy is unbecoming.Someone has the temerity to voice an opinion which differs from your own and you resort to personal abuse.And as for swimming in my gold do you mean the indoor pool or the outside one.


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## Ynot

Andy1001 said:


> Is the green eyed monster coming out here.Frankly your jealousy is unbecoming.Someone has the temerity to voice an opinion which differs from your own and you resort to personal abuse.And as for swimming in my gold do you mean the indoor pool or the outside one.


You assume so much. I am not jealous. I live my life as I choose to. I make more than enough money to have whatever I want or choose to do with my life. As I said you are free to do the same. But your bragging is very unbecoming and makes one wonder how much is real and how much is made up.


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## Andy1001

Ynot said:


> You assume so much. I am not jealous. I live my life as I choose to. I make more than enough money to have whatever I want or choose to do with my life. As I said you are free to do the same. But your bragging is very unbecoming and makes one wonder how much is real and how much is made up.


Well I know what I have and what makes me happy.You of course are free to think what you want but I wasn't bragging,I was talking about housekeepers when you made your frankly insulting statements about being lazy and telling me to go swim in my gold like Scrooge McDuck.Now you suggest I'm lying,well if that is not the first resort of a jealous man I don't know what is.But as you said to each his own.


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## katiecrna

Ynot said:


> I didn't say "they have a big house and yard and someone takes care of it therefore they are killing themselves at work to afford something they don't use " but you sure seem offended by it. Maybe a little too close to home?



Not even close. I live in a crappy condo and do everything. I hire no one.


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## katiecrna

Ynot said:


> Did I say you should change? I don't recall that I did, nor would I. To each their own. However, if you only work two hours a day, and can't find time to clean up after yourself. I would say, that is pretty much a first world problem. Go and wallow in your excess, heck swim in your gold like Scrooge McDuck for all I care. I still think it is laziness however you justify it.




You don't get it. He can find the time to care for his house but he doesn't want to. I don't understand why that is not understood. 

Some people get manicures because they don't want to do their own nails. Some people get haircuts because they don't want to cut their own hair. Some people go to a car wash because they don't want to do it themselves. Some people buy their own clothes because they don't want to make their own. Some people buy food because they don't want to grow their own. 
I don't understand what you don't get about this concept.

Yea first world problems is right. We all have them, including you. While your on your computer arguing with strangers on a forum about how we choose to spend our own money and free time is first world problems.


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## Ynot

katiecrna said:


> You don't get it. He can find the time to care for his house but he doesn't want to. I don't understand why that is not understood.
> 
> Some people get manicures because they don't want to do their own nails. Some people get haircuts because they don't want to cut their own hair. Some people go to a car wash because they don't want to do it themselves. Some people buy their own clothes because they don't want to make their own. Some people buy food because they don't want to grow their own.
> I don't understand what you don't get about this concept.
> 
> Yea first world problems is right. We all have them, including you. While your on your computer arguing with strangers on a forum about how we choose to spend our own money and free time is first world problems.


No, you see I do get it. But I am not the one who is offended by having my first world problems pointed out to me. I absolutely agree that these are first world problems. And believe me my first world problems are different than yours and Andy's, just as his and yours are from mine. I stated an opinion, you and he are free to disagree as I have stated any number of times. But it won't change my opinion.
In fact the whole idea of an "ideal" wife is a first world problem. When we were living at a subsidence level, the ideal wife was one who could drop a kid in the field and get back to digging potatoes. Now it might be some one has their nails done and is fluent in sexting.


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## kag123

katiecrna said:


> I didn't want to hijack this thread so I'm starting a new one...
> 
> It seems that what a man wants in a wife has changes throughout the years. I remember learning/thinking/seeing that men kinda wanted a subservient type of wife. One that worked less, was available to him and the family, one that tended to the home and children. And now it seems that men want a more independent wife, one that doesn't NEED help, one that has her own life.
> 
> It seems my husband is like this. Like he wants me to get a life so to speak, have my own thing going on so he doesn't feel guilty when he's not here. He always tells me he just wants me to be happy, like that is his one need. My friend recently got married, and she's this good girl, Christian, virgin, never lived together blah blah. And she is was telling me she is learning how to be a wife to a very laid back husband. It's like she doesn't know what to do, and she wants to do something to please him. I told her it would probably make him happy to see her get her own life so to speak. Anyway, she thinks this notion is really weird and she can't really adjust to it.
> 
> Men... am I wrong in thinking this is what you want?


In your particular situation- I think your husband is telling you this because he wants to know that he doesn't have to worry about filling that need for you, since he has so much on his plate right now. I think he's trying to tell you - "I love you, but I just can't fill that void in your life the way you need me to right now." I am sure he has a lot of guilt about his inability to put as much time and effort into his marriage as he would like, and if he saw you building a life for yourself outside of him it would likely lessen his guilt. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## katiecrna

Ynot said:


> No, you see I do get it. But I am not the one who is offended by having my first world problems pointed out to me. I absolutely agree that these are first world problems. And believe me my first world problems are different than yours and Andy's, just as his and yours are from mine. I stated an opinion, you and he are free to disagree as I have stated any number of times. But it won't change my opinion.
> In fact the whole idea of an "ideal" wife is a first world problem. When we were living at a subsidence level, the ideal wife was one who could drop a kid in the field and get back to digging potatoes. Now it might be some one has their nails done and is fluent in sexting.




It's your reference to greed, laziness, and comparisons to Scrooge that is offensive to me, not the first world problems which we all have.


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## Andy1001

Ynot said:


> No, you see I do get it. But I am not the one who is offended by having my first world problems pointed out to me. I absolutely agree that these are first world problems. And believe me my first world problems are different than yours and Andy's, just as his and yours are from mine. I stated an opinion, you and he are free to disagree as I have stated any number of times. But it won't change my opinion.
> In fact the whole idea of an "ideal" wife is a first world problem. When we were living at a subsidence level, the ideal wife was one who could drop a kid in the field and get back to digging potatoes. Now it might be some one has their nails done and is fluent in sexting.


Ok let's call a truce.Your last post reminded me of something.I have relatives in Scotland and a great aunt of mine died and as I was in the UK at the time my Dad asked me to go to the funeral.It was in a small village in the highlands and it took me hours to find the place.I went up to the bereaved husband and sympathised with him in the churchyard and he looked at the coffin and said sadly"aye,she was a great worker".


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## Ynot

katiecrna said:


> It's your reference to greed, laziness, and comparisons to Scrooge that is offensive to me, not the first world problems which we all have.


Actually greed, laziness and excessive wealth are first world problems. In places other than the first world, the greedy get killed, the lazy starve and excessive wealth doesn't exist. So unless you take offense to the first world most of us live in, you shouldn't take offense to our problems


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## katiecrna

Ynot said:


> Actually greed, laziness and excessive wealth are first world problems. In places other than the first world, the greedy get killed, the lazy starve and excessive wealth doesn't exist. So unless you take offense to the first world most of us live in, you shouldn't take offense to our problems




God help me. 
Ok um... in 2-3rd world places there are huge HUGE excesses in wealth. 
We don't live in a 3rd world country and working hard and making money Doesn't mean your greedy. Saying someone is greedy because they have money and a big yard is offensive. Saying someone is greedy in general is offensive. 
Just because you pay someone to take care of your house and yard doesn't mean your lazy. Taking care of your house does not mean your not lazy.


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## Miss Independent

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## Miss Independent

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## jb02157

naiveonedave said:


> If I had a $1 for every time I heard someone bash SAHM's, I would be retired on the beach and not able to reply to this thread. LOL
> 
> IMO, either choice that a married couple makes about SAHP or not is totally up to them. In many cases, I think women feel pressured to NOT be SAHM. And that is wrong. In many cases the financial need is that both parents need to work, I get that. But in many (probably most, actually, as most people in the US have too big a house, eat out too much and waste a pile of $) could get by with one working parent.


I have to disagree with you here, I think that for most people (families), two incomes are a necessity. I was forced to support a SAHM for 10 years and I hated every second of it, the main thing is being pressured to come up with every stinking dollar the family needs. I don't want that responsibility, it should be equally divided between husband and wife. With all this BS about women being equal to men, I don't feel I should be responsible for every dollar. Even when I was unemployed, I was still expected to come up with every dollar...isn't this when a wife should be expected to pitch in and help out!! I think this is one of the main things that killed our marriage. I didn't really see it as a marriage at that point, when I got no help from her when I was unemployed...just a bunch of *****ing that I didn't have a job.


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## naiveonedave

jb02157 said:


> I have to disagree with you here, I think that for most people (families), two incomes are a necessity. I was forced to support a SAHM for 10 years and I hated every second of it, the main thing is being pressured to come up with every stinking dollar the family needs. I don't want that responsibility, it should be equally divided between husband and wife. With all this BS about women being equal to men, I don't feel I should be responsible for every dollar. Even when I was unemployed, I was still expected to come up with every dollar...isn't this when a wife should be expected to pitch in and help out!! I think this is one of the main things that killed our marriage. I didn't really see it as a marriage at that point, when I got no help from her when I was unemployed...just a bunch of *****ing that I didn't have a job.


agree to disagree. Though when you were out of work, your W should have stepped up. that is how a team works.. your family probably NEEDS a lot less dollars than it spends, probably by 2x. The need to have the newest gadgets and the biggest house/most cars kills the average American financially.


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## jb02157

naiveonedave said:


> agree to disagree. Though when you were out of work, your W should have stepped up. that is how a team works.. your family probably NEEDS a lot less dollars than it spends, probably by 2x. The need to have the newest gadgets and the biggest house/most cars kills the average American financially.


We don't have the newest gadgets, both the kids and I hate cell phones and we have what I would call a below average house. We do need every dollar we make. Right now I'm trying to figure how much longer I'll have to work before I can retire. The news isn't good, I'll need to work well past 65 just to make ends meet. I think those 10 years my W didn't work really hurt. If she were working, I might have been able to retire at 60.


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## Mr. Nail

Ahem, this is Katie's thread. Page 8 is full of spouting off about something not even in the topic.
So to return to the topic.
The ideal wife Has requirements from her Husband, from herSELF, From her family and upbringing, and let's not forget from her Social peers. In order to trim this list down to a not so overwhelming definition, we need to honestly evaluate where all of the pressure is coming from. Then we need to prioritize. Then let some go. 

It has been said that men are simple creatures. Their wants are simple and few. For the most part this is true. There is no need for any first world woman to devote all of her time to making the man happy. Sure it is true that given enough time and a willing participant, a man can come up with enough wants to fill your whole day and with study he could probably make the requirements for a simple task so complex that you thought his wife wrote them, but really can he ask for a sandwich that you can't make in 5 minutes (more likely 2)?

Believe what it is your spouse is saying. When my wife tells me she doesn't know what she wants (funny story about that last night) I had better believe it because otherwise I'll be badgering her for something she doesn't have. When your husband says he wants you to be happy, believe it. Just don't believe that he knows what you need to do to be happy, only you know that. Feel free to tell him that having a clean home makes you happy. Feel free to tell him working in your garden makes you happy. he may scratch his head, but soon he will believe you. There is a Caution here. Don't tell him that if he did X Y or Q that that would make you happy, because if he does x Y and Q, and there is still a dirty floor making you unhappy he is going to stop believing you. Besides it's nagging.

Sorry about the disjointed nature of this post. I read page 1 and 8, I'm sure I missed plenty in the middle.


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## MEM2020

Ynot,
Let's say M2's heart surgeon spends 30 hours a week in the OR and another 20 doing consults and keeping up with the latest and greatest and cardiovascular surgical techniques. So that's a normal 50 hour professional work week.

And let's say she finds a big yard in a quiet neighborhood to be soothing in comparison to the harsh lights and fast pace of the operating room. 

I am happy for her to have that. Means that she comes in to work relaxed and rested and when she is fixing M2's heart she is functioning at peak efficiency. Seems like a win win. 

My brother in law has a classic car he rebuilt and maintains. It has no electronics in it. His new car - is full of electronic stuff he can't maintain because it requires specialized equipment. Both vehicles cost about the same. I don't think that his owning a contemporary vehicle makes him greedy - just because he can't maintain it. And the current era car is a lot safer. 





Ynot said:


> Having less and doing more of what you love is exactly what I am advocating. So if you don't love yard work, have less yard. Why work 60 hours a week to have a huge yard if you hate yard work? If you are hiring people to do things that you hate doing, then stop having things you hate taking care of. Now that is greed. "Look at me! I have a huge yard with beautiful gardens! I am so special. What? Oh I didn't do any of it, I just pay some one to take care of them, I don't have time. I am too busy!" If something is important to you, you will make the time for it. If it isn't, stop pretending it is and move to a small condo where it isn't a problem anymore


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## Keke24

katiecrna said:


> God help me.
> Ok um... in 2-3rd world places there are huge HUGE excesses in wealth.
> We don't live in a 3rd world country and working hard and making money Doesn't mean your greedy. Saying someone is greedy because they have money and a big yard is offensive. Saying someone is greedy in general is offensive.
> Just because you pay someone to take care of your house and yard doesn't mean your lazy. Taking care of your house does not mean your not lazy.


I have to agree with this and I can't help but feel that the opinion expressed by @Ynot is based on culture. There is a culture of housekeeping here that is not reserved for the wealthy. 

We were extremely poor and only my parent's lack of disposal income inhibited their ability to hire a helper. Around xmas however we'd get a lady for a day or two. When you have 6 kids and both parents are working, there is very family time. My parents were on their feet from the time they got home from work and my mom in particular really felt guilty for not spending enough time with us. Of course we could see how much work always had to be done so no one but her took it personally. My life as a child revolved around housework. I think we all could have benefited from having more free time to play in the yard and with the neighbours. 

How can one deny the benefit of a housekeeper in such instances? Having children with both parents are working, I think a housekeeper would really help ease the burden on parents.


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## _anonymous_

Your mileage may vary. The "ideal wife" depends on the husband, and there are a few variable factors/constants.

Income. Husbands who make more, may be agnostic about their wives working. If the woman wants to stay at home, it's OK, providing the wife has a larger role in taking care of the house/kids. If she wants to work outside the home, that's OK too; in this case, house and kids become shared responsibilities. Husbands who make less money will want their wives to contribute to the combined income, when budget constraints are tight. 

Social Network. Husbands with more friends (personal, not mutual) will want more time away from the wife. In this case, it's preferable for wives to have something to occupy themselves (friends, hobbies, career, etc.)

Hobbies. Along the same lines, men with more "outside" hobbies will want their wives to occupy themselves, while they're out doing their thing.

Constant expectations. Husbands expect lot's of sex with the wife (this is mainly about validation and acceptance), emotional support (through words and deeds), occasional adoration or praise (let us have some ego), sharing in chores (as appropriate, given the wife's commitment outside the home).


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## 269370

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That ain't nuthin' new, Katiecrna. That's been a pet peeve of mine for YEARS.
> 
> Women are expected to be Super Woman and do it *all* - bring in a paycheck, clean the house, cook the meals, do the food shopping and all menu planning, carry and birth the children then be their primary care taker for life, keep the home fires burning and everything running the way it should, and lavish tons of attention on her oh so deprived husband and become a sex kitten for him at night. Most women don't have time to care for themselves (go to the gym, do their nails, enjoy reading a book, etc. etc.) because they're so damned busy catering to everyone *else* in their lives. And the majority of men think anything THEY do to contribute is 'helping _HER_' and that she should fall on her knees in gratitude and be sure to thank him and give him a reward for doing it.
> 
> You have to love the fools who always use the 'equality' argument when they don't want to pay for dates, yet conveniently FORGET all about 'equality' when it comes to expecting a woman to do the overwhelming majority of the domestic chores and child-rearing instead of doing their EQUAL share. Hypocrites.
> 
> I've lost count of how many men whine and complain that they're bored and their sex life sucks and they simply don't understand why their wives - who've worked their damned tails off from 6am and have finally fallen into bed at 10pm EXHAUSTED - aren't eager to cater to their every sexual need.


I can't believe I am going to agree with She'sStillGotIt :surprise: But I do.

To be fair, you forgot to mention pole dancing classes: this is a must skill to master for a modern wife.


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## heartsbeating

I asked my husband and he answered someone that loves him and who will share and contribute as a partner in life.

The core traits he needs in a spouse is kindness and consideration, being smart and savvy. He agreed these attributes can be found in many people. Fun to be around, sexual connection and attraction, physical touch and intimacy are also important to him. To answer my question of 'Why me?' it comes back to love; being in love and being loved... it's just felt. 

He views the daily chores and tasks as habits and routine that can be worked out and adjusted together. It's not a consideration for him like the core traits of a person. He views his main chores as taking out the trash, mowing, chainsaw work, splitting wood etc. He also enjoys cooking. He did list several things he felt I could take on with the yard. Wait, how did that happen?! ha ha.


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## heartsbeating

katiecrna said:


> And now it seems that men want a more independent wife, one that doesn't NEED help, one that has her own life.


My husband does expect interdependence. We both value friendships and our own interests. It expands our own perspectives and life experiences. As well as the experiences we share together. 

The considerations we demonstrate are, often admittedly, gender stereotyped. We went to a music gig together this week. While waiting for the band to come on stage, we were in the crowd chatting and laughing. Suddenly his chest thrust slightly forward. I asked if he was okay. He noticed the dude next to me getting too much into my personal space... he was going to give him a nudge... I reassured it wasn't needed. The crowd shuffles naturally. He didn't realize his body language had automatically switched to protectiveness and although it wasn't needed, it gave me a warm-fuzzy feeling. I can't help it. There's other considerations that arouse that feeling too. He's found a solution and taking responsibility, considering my needs in the process. 

For him, its' when I've brought a cold drink when he's outside working. Or when I've made a sandwich for him when working in the garage... which was a joke / tip of the hat to Bill Burr, yet hubs agrees with the sentiment of those sorts of considerations, that speak to him in return giving him that lift.


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## Duguesclin

My ideal wife has not changed. I feel grateful she is right here by me.

Now, regarding the wider population of men, I can understand that many would be attracted by a woman that is independent, does not make any demands on him, and is passionately present when he wants her to be. The best person to fulfill that description is probably a male friend. I am not gay, so it is not for me.

I am thankful that the female sex is very different from the male one. Although many men pray every day for females to behave like men, I know it will never work. 

The ideal woman may have changed, but the real one is still the same: ready to make demands on you, so you can stop being a selfish ass!


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## aine

Ynot said:


> Funny thread. Started off asking about the ideal wife and evolved into a thread about the merits of hiring a housekeeper.
> As for the ideal wife? Well, I think we all have our own version of ideal. What might work for me may not work for you. So again the best advice is to just be yourself and you will wind up where you are supposed to be and with the person you are supposed to be. The ideal will be realized
> As for housekeepers, groundskeepers etc. My opinion is what a giant waste of money and time. I simply don't understand why so many people live to work rather than work to live. I see so many people chasing the almighty dollar in order to have more and better and then never having the time to enjoy any of it. No thanks, it takes all of about a 1/2 an hour to clean my house. Another hour to do yard work. I throw away more time typing responses on internet forums than it takes to take care of me and whatever messes I make. As far as I am concerned hiring "staff" to maintain your day to day life is just laziness and greed. Such a first world problem.
> I take a lot more pride in doing something myself, stepping back and being able to say "I did that", than writing a check to have some one else do it for me.


It is easy to have that opinion when you have probably never lived outside of your own comfort zone and in a country that has all the mod cons, infrastructure, welfare state, etc etc. To also say it is a first world problem is entirely rubbish. You go to India, China, south east asia, you will find more housekeepers, gardeners, maids, drivers, nannies, home nurses that in any first world area. The question is why?
There are a variety of reasons

1. in many families both parents must work or they don't eat, there is no welfare state, public health safety net, NGOs covering for you. 
2. Schools start at 7am to 2-3pm, parents are still at work, what do they come home to? A key under the front door mat?
3. People in this part of the world, do not have the kind of labour laws that protect the first world countries, so whether you are in management or on the shop floor, working hours are long, some times people only get home at 9pm or 10pm, who is going to cook and clean? Incidentally unless you are a factory worker there is no overtime either, it is an employers market, you work those hours as that is the expectation.
4. Public transport infrastructure is quite terrible, people can spend anywhere from 2-4 hours commuting every day, they do not have a wife at home keeping things in order. Both leave the house as late as 6.30 am and are only back by 9-10pm, where is the time for gardening, cleaning, etc? For example someone living in Jakarta can take 2-3 hours just to get across the city.
5. Many of the 'support staff' depend heavily on these kind of jobs. In many cases they are part of the family and stay for years, depending for financial and other support
6. For some working in countries like China it is a necessity to have a driver otherwise you will be exhausted and stressed by the time you get to the office as noone follows the laws of the road, in fact people go down the highway the wrong way or around roundabouts the wrong way.

So before you start castigating people using housekeepers etc, try and think of the bigger picture. You cannot take a first world lens and apply it to all and sundry, it is a vary narrow minded thing to do.
Finally if a wife is at home and has lots of kids, if the H can afford it why not get her some help? The H is giving some respite to his wife and providing employment to someone who obviously needs the job.
Finally if it only takes you 1.5 hours to clean and do your yard, either you have a very very small area or you are not doing a very thorough job.

In essense, stop using your view of the world and imposing it on others. 
I wonder do you hold a passport?


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## aine

inmyprime said:


> I can't believe I am going to agree with She'sStillGotIt :surprise: But I do.
> 
> To be fair, you forgot to mention pole dancing classes: this is a must skill to master for a modern wife.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: with She'sstill Got it


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## aine

Duguesclin said:


> My ideal wife has not changed. I feel grateful she is right here by me.
> 
> Now, regarding the wider population of men, I can understand that many would be attracted by a woman that is independent, does not make any demands on him, and is passionately present when he wants her to be. The best person to fulfill that description is probably a male friend. I am not gay, so it is not for me.
> 
> I am thankful that the female sex is very different from the male one. Although many men pray every day for females to behave like men, I know it will never work.
> 
> The ideal woman may have changed, but the real one is still the same: ready to make demands on you, so you can stop being a selfish ass!


Would you say that men are way more selfish than women?


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## Duguesclin

aine said:


> Would you say that men are way more selfish than women?


Yes


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## Ynot

aine said:


> It is easy to have that opinion when you have probably never lived outside of your own comfort zone and in a country that has all the mod cons, infrastructure, welfare state, etc etc. To also say it is a first world problem is entirely rubbish. You go to India, China, south east asia, you will find more housekeepers, gardeners, maids, drivers, nannies, home nurses that in any first world area. The question is why?
> 
> My goodness, how naïve. Don't you understand that first world problems don't just take place in first world places? Apparently not, of course they happen in second and third world places as well. That is because the person with the first world problem is living a first world life in a second or third world place. No one said they only occur in modern post industrial societies.
> There are a variety of reasons
> 
> 1. in many families both parents must work or they don't eat, there is no welfare state, public health safety net, NGOs covering for you.
> 2. Schools start at 7am to 2-3pm, parents are still at work, what do they come home to? A key under the front door mat?
> 3. People in this part of the world, do not have the kind of labour laws that protect the first world countries, so whether you are in management or on the shop floor, working hours are long, some times people only get home at 9pm or 10pm, who is going to cook and clean? Incidentally unless you are a factory worker there is no overtime either, it is an employers market, you work those hours as that is the expectation.
> 4. Public transport infrastructure is quite terrible, people can spend anywhere from 2-4 hours commuting every day, they do not have a wife at home keeping things in order. Both leave the house as late as 6.30 am and are only back by 9-10pm, where is the time for gardening, cleaning, etc? For example someone living in Jakarta can take 2-3 hours just to get across the city.
> 5. Many of the 'support staff' depend heavily on these kind of jobs. In many cases they are part of the family and stay for years, depending for financial and other support
> 6. For some working in countries like China it is a necessity to have a driver otherwise you will be exhausted and stressed by the time you get to the office as noone follows the laws of the road, in fact people go down the highway the wrong way or around roundabouts the wrong way.
> 
> So before you start castigating people using housekeepers etc, try and think of the bigger picture. You cannot take a first world lens and apply it to all and sundry, it is a vary narrow minded thing to do.
> Finally if a wife is at home and has lots of kids, if the H can afford it why not get her some help? The H is giving some respite to his wife and providing employment to someone who obviously needs the job.
> Finally if it only takes you 1.5 hours to clean and do your yard, either you have a very very small area or you are not doing a very thorough job.
> Those are all great examples of reasons why such an arrangement might be possible. But none of them have anything to do with first world problems, now are they? Those are problems of developing nations, very much unlike post-industrial societies.
> Finally, I do have a small yard, less than 1/4 of an acre. But keep in mind, even mowing grass and landscaping are first world issues. People living at a subsistence level are not much concerned with whether or not their lawn is weed free.
> In essense, stop using your view of the world and imposing it on others.
> No, in essence, I would urge you to take posts in context and not apply such a broad brush when interpreting them.
> I wonder do you hold a passport?


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## jld

aine said:


> Would you say that men are way more selfish than women?


Men Are More Selfish Than Women Study


_WASHINGTON - Men tend to be more narcissistic than women and as a result are more likely to exploit others, a US study has said after analyzing three decades of data from more than 475,000 people.

The findings were consistent across multiple age groups and generations, said the University at Buffalo School of Management, pointing out that narcissism has good and bad points.

"Narcissism is associated with various interpersonal dysfunctions, including an inability to maintain healthy long-term relationships, unethical behavior and aggression," said lead author Emily Grijalva, assistant professor of organization and human resources in the UB School of Management.

"At the same time, narcissism is shown to boost self-esteem, emotional stability and the tendency to emerge as a leader." 

The researchers examined more than 355 journal articles, dissertations, manuscripts and technical manuals, and studied gender differences in the three aspects of narcissism: leadership/authority, grandiose/exhibitionism and entitlement.

They found the widest gap in entitlement, suggesting that men are more likely than women to exploit others and feel entitled to certain privileges.

The results will be published in the forthcoming Psychological Bulletin journal._


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## chillymorn69

jld said:


> Men Are More Selfish Than Women Study
> 
> 
> _WASHINGTON - Men tend to be more narcissistic than women and as a result are more likely to exploit others, a US study has said after analyzing three decades of data from more than 475,000 people.
> 
> The findings were consistent across multiple age groups and generations, said the University at Buffalo School of Management, pointing out that narcissism has good and bad points.
> 
> "Narcissism is associated with various interpersonal dysfunctions, including an inability to maintain healthy long-term relationships, unethical behavior and aggression," said lead author Emily Grijalva, assistant professor of organization and human resources in the UB School of Management.
> 
> "At the same time, narcissism is shown to boost self-esteem, emotional stability and the tendency to emerge as a leader."
> 
> The researchers examined more than 355 journal articles, dissertations, manuscripts and technical manuals, and studied gender differences in the three aspects of narcissism: leadership/authority, grandiose/exhibitionism and entitlement.
> 
> They found the widest gap in entitlement, suggesting that men are more likely than women to exploit others and feel entitled to certain privileges.
> 
> The results will be published in the forthcoming Psychological Bulletin journal._


Done by a female researcher?


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## jld

chillymorn69 said:


> Done by a female researcher?


https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/aa63/52ccde2e6c6412bc85a66a1348864c012198.pdf

Four men in the group, one woman.


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## chillymorn69

jld said:


> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/aa63/52ccde2e6c6412bc85a66a1348864c012198.pdf
> 
> Four men in the group, one woman.


This type of research is to subjective for any real value


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## jld

chillymorn69 said:


> This type of research is to subjective for any real value


_"The gender difference in narcissism (d = .26) is consistent
with some of the larger gender differences discovered in the
personality domain (Hyde, 2014). It is important to note that
the gender difference in narcissism (as measured by the NPI) is
not just a measurement artifact but represents true differences
in the latent trait, driven by men’s heightened sense of entitlement
and authority."_

Sounds accurate to me.


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## chillymorn69

jld said:


> _"The gender difference in narcissism (d = .26) is consistent
> with some of the larger gender differences discovered in the
> personality domain (Hyde, 2014). It is important to note that
> the gender difference in narcissism (as measured by the NPI) is
> not just a measurement artifact but represents true differences
> in the latent trait, driven by men’s heightened sense of entitlement
> and authority."_
> 
> Sounds accurate to me.


Have to agree to disagree!


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## aine

"First world problems' - I guess your definition and mine are different. FWP refer to matters which are trivial and inconsequential. I would say that the list I made is real and a problem for many people. By your own words you basically say that people in less developed places would not have problems if they lived 'third world' lives. That is ridiculous and demeaning, by saying this you are saying that such people should not aspire to an education for their children, to owning a home, to owning a lawn/garden, to building a career, etc. It sounds to me like you know little of struggle and life has come easy to you. If you choose to live in a small place requiring little effort, etc that is entirely your perogative, just as it is the perogative of others to live the way they choose, with or without help.


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## aine

jld said:


> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/aa63/52ccde2e6c6412bc85a66a1348864c012198.pdf
> 
> Four men in the group, one woman.


Interesting stuff but logical, men are expected to be the leaders, the winners, etc. Females are groomed n most cultures to be the nurturers, so this is not surprising.


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## Ynot

aine said:


> "First world problems' - I guess your definition and mine are different. FWP refer to matters which are trivial and inconsequential. I would say that the list I made is real and a problem for many people. By your own words you basically say that people in less developed places would not have problems if they lived 'third world' lives. That is ridiculous and demeaning, by saying this you are saying that such people should not aspire to an education for their children, to owning a home, to owning a lawn/garden, to building a career, etc. It sounds to me like you know little of struggle and life has come easy to you. If you choose to live in a small place requiring little effort, etc that is entirely your perogative, just as it is the perogative of others to live the way they choose, with or without help.


The problems you cited are not trivial and meaningless. They are directly related to surviving, which is a far cry from first world problems of how do I spend my excessive leisure time. In fact I am willing to bet that most people in the situations you have listed would love to have the problem of what to do with excess leisure time. I was not talking about people struggling to survive I was talking about the people in well developed countries with FIRST WOLRD PROBLEMS. Your confusion is evident in your attempts to insult me out of your own ignorance (no, I am not calling you ignorant, I am merely stating that in this case you are completely lacking in understanding)
Believe me, I know more about the struggle to live than most people here do. It has nothing to do with not understanding the struggle, in fact it has everything to do WITH understanding the struggle. There are people who are basically enslaved, who wish they could see their children more, who wish they had property to maintain, who wish they had FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS. I am reasonably certain they would not throw away an opportunity to be with their kids or have more property by turning those responsibilities over to someone else to handle.


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## Mr The Other

katiecrna said:


> I feel like this whole independent wife who has her own life thing is hard to achieve and casts impossible expectations on women. Maybe I'm wrong?
> So we're suppose to be independent, work, confident, have our own life and work, dress nice and whatever, but at the same time we have to cook/clean/take care of the kids, and still have time to look sexy while having wild sex with our husbands all the time. It seems like we have to do everything. Am I wrong?


Good grief, I do not know any man whose expectations are that high.

It would be great to have a woman who was emotionally secure enough to neither put her man down nor put him on a ridiculous pedestal, respect him, and actively contribute to the marriage. I am sure the vast majority of men would be delighted with that. 

How that active contribution manifests is very variable, but I am sure you would expect a man to contribute to the house, financially, to bringing up kids, sexually, and not completely let himself go. That would not make you an evil harpy, so I do not see it would be horrific from a man either. Furthermore, I would expect a man to lay down his life for his woman and put her well being before his own, I would not expect the reverse.

This is not a complaint, in fact it is a depiction of a rare ideal.


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## _anonymous_

jld said:


> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/aa63/52ccde2e6c6412bc85a66a1348864c012198.pdf
> 
> Four men in the group, one woman.


One theory: contagion
A teaspoon of honey does little for a barrel of tar, but a teaspoon of tar spoils an entire barrel of honey.

Another theory: the four men are married


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## Mr The Other

jld said:


> _"The gender difference in narcissism (d = .26) is consistent
> with some of the larger gender differences discovered in the
> personality domain (Hyde, 2014). It is important to note that
> the gender difference in narcissism (as measured by the NPI) is
> not just a measurement artifact but represents true differences
> in the latent trait, driven by men’s heightened sense of entitlement
> and authority."_
> 
> Sounds accurate to me.


If men are inherently more selfish, then them being the leader in a relationship would likely be disastrous. It would be exploitative, with little regard for their emotions. I generally expect to be the more selfless, as being the leader means taking responsibility for the relationship, which means taking responsibility for both people.

In a serious relationship, I am not surprised if a woman left one of my friends if they lost their job or became seriously ill. If one of my friends left a committed relationship because their lady lost their job or became seriously ill, I would be horrified at their behaviour. I am not saying that men are more selfless, but the person taking the lead in a relationship must see that as a role calling for a reasonable degree of selflessness.


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## jld

Mr The Other said:


> If men are inherently more selfish, then them being the leader in a relationship would likely be disastrous. It would be exploitative, with little regard for their emotions. I generally expect to be the more selfless, as *being the leader means taking responsibility for the relationship, which means taking responsibility for both people.*
> 
> In a serious relationship, I am not surprised if a woman left one of my friends if they lost their job or became seriously ill. If one of my friends left a committed relationship because their lady lost their job or became seriously ill, I would be horrified at their behaviour. I am not saying that men are more selfless, but *the person taking the lead in a relationship must see that as a role calling for a reasonable degree of selflessness*.


I certainly agree with the bolded.

Taking a leadership role is an opportunity to transform any natural selfishness into selflessness, to accept the call to maturity.


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## Blokeymcblokeface

My wife is very independent, she doesn't need me at all... she works when she wants, does what she wants and we spend time together when it suits

In honsesty it sucks, I would prefer to be married to someone who had a career but valued being at home more


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## Mr The Other

jld said:


> I certainly agree with the bolded.
> 
> Taking a leadership role is an opportunity to transform any natural selfishness into selflessness, to accept the call to maturity.


I think we have similar standards for men and women. The difference is our expectations for men and women.


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## jld

Mr The Other said:


> I think we have similar standards for men and women. The difference is our expectations for men and women.


It is not that a woman cannot be the leader in her relationship. Many women have no other choice.

But a man's accepting a leadership role not only helps him mature, but can take a great burden off his wife, who may otherwise out of necessity assume it if she wants to stay married.


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## jld

Mr The Other said:


> I think we have similar standards for men and women. The difference is our expectations for men and women.


Just a thought: this could be the subject of an interesting thread.


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## Mr The Other

jld said:


> Just a thought: this could be the subject of an interesting thread.


Whether we have differing expectations from men and women, and the difference between our standards and expectations?

Could be. Good idea.

I might leave it to you, I am afraid. I am not here that often anymore!


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