# "Victimized" Wife Needs Supervision



## onsyde (Aug 2, 2011)

My marriage is a disaster. Here's one way this shows up.

I've been retired for a couple of years, but my wife still works. This should give me the opportunity, for instance, to do an overnight visit with my ailing father a few hours driving away.

However, if I go away for more than during a day, my wife industriously packs my things, such as clothing, shared computer equipment, and office supplies, into boxes which she moves from the shared bedroom to the basement. She sees this as being my fault, so in her view she is justified in doing this I do not treat her property in this manner since I think it's disrespectful and wrong.

Explaining why she sees herself as the victim requires the long version.

We have not had conjugal relations for over 10 years. When we still shared the same bed in the main bedroom, she would often complain that I smelled at night, snored etc. On the other hand, I'm a light sleeper and I had to wear earplugs to get any sleep because she also snores, and spends much of many nights making a nasal sniffing noise every 10 minutes or so. She's also a very troubled sleeper, and keeping covers on myself is a constant struggle. In the morning her bed looks like a bomb went off in it.

In addition, when I'm angry at what I see as her abundant additional unacceptable behavior, my first reaction was to go sleep in the spare bedroom. There I could get some decent sleep. This became more common than sharing the main bedroom, although I kept my "office" functions in that large room, which also hosted the computer equipment. When we had overnight company, I'd move back to the main bedroom, resolving to stay there until there was another blow-up. It was never more than two weeks to another blow-up, and I'd move back to the other bedroom. Gradually I shifted some of my clothing and other items to the spare bedroom, but always had some stuff in the main bedroom.

My wife decided this meant I had forfeited any rights to the main bedroom, which she began to refer to as being "hers". She decided to redecorate it, and when I was away for a weekend over a year ago, I got back to find she had packed much of my remaining things from the main bedroom to the basement. Some time later she began doing the same to shared items, such as the household computer equipment (all of which I paid for).

In addition, again without consulting with me first (despite her frequent complaint that I don't "communicate" with her) and when she had the main bedroom completely dismantled, she suddenly went to bed in the spare bedroom. I immediately moved myself and my dresser, some clothes, the computer gear and some office items back into the main bedroom. She has made herself at home in the spare bedroom, while I sleep in the somewhat ransacked main bedroom. Her view is that I am deliberately obstructing her work on the main bedroom, and that her moving into the spare bedroom is no different from the times when I temporarily resumed sleeping in the main bedroom. 

The difference is that I moved to the spare bedroom to get away from her, while her "joining" me in the spare bedroom is the opposite of me moving away from her.

The result of this is that for over a year, the house has been disrupted by furniture out of place, piles of boxes in the basement through which I regularly need to search to find things I need, a main bedroom in a state of semi-destruction, no means to settle the dispute in sight, and me having to stick around here to keep her from further messing with my things.

She sees herself as a victim because she can't proceed with the work, because I don't want to sleep with her, and because I want to travel occasionally.

She also shouts at me in public, and sees herself as the victim because in her view the circumstances prove I incited her to do so. She has shoved me several times, and sees herself as the victim because she says I provoked her. She has taken our child away on a vacation without me because she says she had no choice and she's the victim because the family vacation was ruined. It will come as no surprise that we have unpleasant arguments almost daily, and most of these turn into shouting matches full of insults etc.

Any thoughts on how I can go away for more than a day without coming back to find she's been meddling with my possessions?


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

onsyde said:


> My marriage is a disaster. Here's one way this shows up.
> 
> I've been retired for a couple of years, but my wife still works. This should give me the opportunity, for instance, to do an overnight visit with my ailing father a few hours driving away.
> 
> ...


Divorce? 

Pardon my bluntness, but it sounds like you've got more problems with your marriage than possessions and spare bedrooms. I suggest you address the main issue...unless you are both happy that there are no more conjugal visits and you are but mere roommates.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

divorce

if there are no conjugal relations and have not been for 10 years, what's the point of staying married?

Sounds like she has BPD. I wouldn't stick around for someone who never thinks that anything is her fault.


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## omega (Aug 2, 2011)

You are both so passive-aggressive in this relationship (moving each other's possessions around the house?? seriously??) that you need individual AND marriage counseling at the MINIMUM. Good luck.


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

So why are the two of you together? That is no way to live. You either need counseling or a divorce.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

onsyde said:


> My marriage is a disaster.


Yep, that one sentence sums it up quite adequately. Frankly, your wife sounds a bit unhinged to me, but I'm getting it from your perspective. The pushing and shouting in public? A no-brainer, in my book; not to mention no sex in 10 years.

Call an attorney to get an initial consultation. Get your financial house in order. Then leave your wife to victimize herself. She deserves it.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

You both sound like you have some serious issues. Therapy or divorce, those are your only choices. If you do decide on divorce you should consider individual therapy so you can learn how to never let yourself end up in such a terrible relationship again.


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## YupItsMe (Sep 29, 2011)

Your focus is entirely misplaced. Youve spent waaaay too miuch time on the crazy train to see it apparantly.

Either take steps to fix your and your wifes passive agressive nonsensical behavior or get a divorce for crissakes. 

Jeepers Creepers dude


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## kekel1123 (Aug 17, 2011)

For me , either one of you needs to ACT AS AN ADULT! If not BOTH OF YOU!


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

well, um, you could always try and have sex with her and see where that gets you.


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## onsyde (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks for the responses. You can be sure I've considered divorce. A complicating factor is that we have a 10-year old child, and it seems to be almost universally accepted that a child that age is better off in an unhappy home than to have the parents divorced. We have managed to contain the damage and often assure our child that this mess is not their fault. Many of her friends and classmates are, of course, from broken families, so kids that age nowadays are familiar with this issue. No doubt our child is suffering some damage from this, but the child is universally recognized as well-adjusted, well-behaved, smart, healthy etc.

I also don't think it's fair that the person who moves out is wholly responsible for renting and furnishing a new place, while the person who stays gets sole use of a very costly asset in the form of the family home and contents. That's like being rewarded for destructive behavior.

We went to counseling about 8 years ago. My wife's motivation was to win over the counselor to her side, rather than sort out our marriage. We more recently visited another counselor, and got the usual "5000 exercises to do together to move on" guidance. We have not been back, and my wife has not raised the subject of counseling since then.

@omega: "(moving each other's possessions around the house?? seriously??)"

I never move her things without getting her permission. She does move my things, and jointly owned things, without my permission because she says their presence obstructs her from redecorating the main bedroom as per her preferences, and that by sleeping in the spare bedroom I relinquished all rights to the main bedroom.

I do think she's at least neurotic. In that sense, I'm more accepting of her behavior, because part of what we sign on to in marriage is helping our partner with their ailments, whether they are medical or mental. It seems to me this is different from putting up with someone who's just a jerk.

I have considered BPD. Is anyone interested in me posting my responses to the standard BPD checklist for her? That might fill out the picture some more.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

onsyde said:


> it seems to be almost universally accepted that a child that age is better off in an unhappy home than to have the parents divorced.


I don't have children, but if you say this is a fact, then okay by me. However, what kind of husband/wife role models is your child seeing? Mom and dad sleep in separate rooms. Mom is in victim-mentality mode. Mom shouts at dad, even in public. Yes, it may be a result of BPD, but it doesn't sound like your wife is ready to run off to a psychiatrist to get a diagnosis ... 




onsyde said:


> I also don't think it's fair that the person who moves out is wholly responsible for renting and furnishing a new place, while the person who stays gets sole use of a very costly asset in the form of the family home and contents. That's like being rewarded for destructive behavior.


AGAIN ... see an attorney. Granted, life isn't fair; nobody said it was. However, there is no reason you have to be wholly responsible for furnishing a place, if you are the one who moves out. The contents of your marital home are partly your's. Even if you decide to stay, you will be informed of your legal rights. Right now, you are assuming you leave your wife everything and you get zip. 



onsyde said:


> We went to counseling about 8 years ago. My wife's motivation was to win over the counselor to her side, rather than sort out our marriage.
> 
> I never move her things without getting her permission. She does move my things, and jointly owned things, without my permission because she says their presence obstructs her from redecorating the main bedroom as per her preferences, and that by sleeping in the spare bedroom I relinquished all rights to the main bedroom.


Doesn't sound like the wife is interested in anything other than walking all over you, or anyone else, in order to have things HER way. Okay ...



onsyde said:


> we sign on to in marriage is helping our partner with their ailments, whether they are medical or mental.
> 
> I have considered BPD. Is anyone interested in me posting my responses to the standard BPD checklist for her? That might fill out the picture some more.


I agree we should help our partner, but when it comes to someone acting up and acting out, or having an addiction, it is best to voice our concern, but leave them to seek the help they need. It took my husband 16 months after I moved out to hit bottom and seek recovery for his alcoholism. I couldn't get him to see the problem or force him to seek help. 

So you took the test to determine if your wife has BPD. Have you shown her the results? If this is her mental health problem, perhaps you should try to sit down and tell her about your concerns. Do you feel she would be willing to consider that her problems might stem from a treatable mental disorder? Doesn't sound like she would be particularly willing, consider MC didn't pan out ... still, you can give it a shot.


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## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

I disagree wholeheartedly on staying together "for the kids" no matter what. I'm a teacher and kids are MUCH more unhappy in an unhappy home than when parents are apart but happier as individuals. And on a more personal note, when I left my first husband (there was abuse) when my daughter was 5, it actually was BETTER for her. I realized in the months leading up to the separation that she was "learning" an example of marriage that I did not want her to ever look for that kind of relationship in her future. And contrary to these "reports" that it's better for kids to stay together no matter how bad it is, the (minor) behavior problems we were seeing before the separation disappeared because the TENSION she was living under was gone. No, it wasn't easy on any of us, but it was much better in the long run. 

Don't get me wrong...I don't advocate divorce at the drop of a hat. It took me years to get to the point I did, and I think everyone should try their very best before divorcing, but sometimes it absolutely is the best thing.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

So what reason does your wife have for not wanting you away from home overnight?
Can you think of a possible reason at all?

Why haven`t you had sex in 10 years?
Gotta be a reason for that.

Why are you still married if you haven`t had sex in ten years?
Find it hard to believe a man would deal with that for a decade.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Quit using your child as an excuse and quite exposing her to the childish behavior that you and your wife seem to revel in. 

Fair Smair get a divorce and move on with your lives. I believe you are both addicted to the toxic environment and do not know how to live without it.


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## Locard (May 26, 2011)

Staying together for the child IS a good reason. I deal with the messes that divorce leaves behind with children all the time in my work. That in no way should stop you from establishing boundaries with your wife. You sound like a nice buy, how about reading No More Mr. Nice Guy.


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## onsyde (Aug 2, 2011)

tacoma said:


> So what reason does your wife have for not wanting you away from home overnight?
> Can you think of a possible reason at all?
> 
> Why haven`t you had sex in 10 years?
> ...


My wife has little ability to maintain friendships. She doesn't understand the give and take that cements friendships. For instance, most people, as they encounter things during the day, think "bbb would be interested in that", or "I could do ... for bbb". This sort of thinking does not seem to be part of her consciousness. Frankly, her outlook seems to be what others should be doing for her.

All the friends we have are people I brought to the relationship. I would never again marry anyone who did not have a robust set of friends. 

Getting back to why she starts coming unhinged when I'm away, I think she has either separation anxiety, or this is just the standard worry of a parasite.

Moving on to the sex thing. I am turned off by conflict. I'm starting to think this is very unusual. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me that most people/couples follow conflict with sex. As though there's something about the intensity of conflict that leads to sex as some sort of renewal. 

To me, sex follows from romance, and to me, conflict kills romance. This is my first marriage, and I got married at around age 40. So in a sense being married is less normal for me than being single. My wife also has not married before, and there has been no infidelity in our marriage.


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## onsyde (Aug 2, 2011)

RClawson said:


> Quit using your child as an excuse and quite exposing her to the childish behavior that you and your wife seem to revel in.
> 
> Fair Smair get a divorce and move on with your lives. I believe you are both addicted to the toxic environment and do not know how to live without it.


I certainly don't revel in this mess. I have discussed this mess with our child, and how it might be affecting her. I try to set as good an example as possible under the circumstances. I have pointed out to my wife that instigating physical abuse with our child present should be so unacceptable as to be unthinkable. 

Our child has lots of friends, and it seems that their casual conversations include their family situations. Many are from divorces. Some have histories such as a parent smashing all the other parent's belongings. Our child recognizes that although our home life could be vastly better, it could also be vastly worse.

It could be that one or both of us is, as you say, "addicted to the toxic environment". I certainly think this is true of my wife, but perhaps this is how she gets intensity in the relationship. I remember my parents argued every day, so no doubt I have some of that in me. (But they certainly never leveled with their children as I have with ours.) On the other hand, when I was a young man I had a history of successful co-op and shared living arrangements, while my wife has no such background.


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## onsyde (Aug 2, 2011)

Locard said:


> Staying together for the child IS a good reason. I deal with the messes that divorce leaves behind with children all the time in my work. That in no way should stop you from establishing boundaries with your wife. You sound like a nice buy, how about reading No More Mr. Nice Guy.


This illustrates the problem. There is no clear answer to whether a child is better off in a dysfunctional household or post-divorce. Studies claim to show that the former do better in school, are less likely to abuse drugs, get involved in pregnancies etc.

I agree with others that a situation improved by separation should be better for the child. But in many cases, separation leads to a toxic and destructive legal battle that spills over into custodial issues. Which in turn also deeply affect the child. I only have so much control over where this marriage would go post-separation.

I would love to move on to a spouse who would set an example for our child as what a mature and sensible spouse is. But I have no prospects. If the "right" person came along, I'd be out of here. But it would take someone unusually perceptive to be willing to step into this matter, and they'd also have to be at the right stage in their life...

Setting Boundaries. I need to learn about this. Such as the step-by-step method to stop my wife, for instance, from messing with my things or to stop her from shouting at me in public. When I tell her these are not acceptable, she immediately responds with a claim that due to such-and-such actions on my part, she has no choice but to do those things. She doesn't seem to be able to see "escalation steps" in conflicts, and so saying that at a certain point things cross into the unacceptable, has no impression on her. She just thinks that whatever she does, it's a fair response to my provocation. She has no clue about conflict avoidance or resolution.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

Buddy, you are delusional to think the crazy behavior in your household isn't impacting your child and the fact that you are talking to your 10 year old child about your f&cked up marriage says a lot about your lack of appropriate boundaries with your child.

For christ sake, get into counseling for the sake of your child. You are living in bizarro land and you don't even know it but your child sure as hell does. 

Stop fighting in front of your kid. Stop talking to your kid about your ADULT problems. Your child is not your friend, your confidant or your counselor. Your child is a CHILD and needs to be kept away from your nutty behavior.

Your wife sounds like she has a personality disorder, which are really, really hard to treat. 

You have already caused your child a lot of damage just by the toxic environment in which you live. The least of your worries should be the impact of divorce on your kid!

Get it together and stop focusing on childish issues about moving furniture. Sheesh!


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## onsyde (Aug 2, 2011)

Prodigal said:


> I don't have children, but if you say this is a fact, then okay by me. However, what kind of husband/wife role models is your child seeing? Mom and dad sleep in separate rooms. Mom is in victim-mentality mode. Mom shouts at dad, even in public. Yes, it may be a result of BPD, but it doesn't sound like your wife is ready to run off to a psychiatrist to get a diagnosis ...
> 
> AGAIN ... see an attorney. Granted, life isn't fair; nobody said it was. However, there is no reason you have to be wholly responsible for furnishing a place, if you are the one who moves out. The contents of your marital home are partly your's. Even if you decide to stay, you will be informed of your legal rights. Right now, you are assuming you leave your wife everything and you get zip.


I suppose this could be resolved in a separation agreement, but I can't see my wife agreeing to a fair one.



> Doesn't sound like the wife is interested in anything other than walking all over you, or anyone else, in order to have things HER way. Okay ...
> 
> I agree we should help our partner, but when it comes to someone acting up and acting out, or having an addiction, it is best to voice our concern, but leave them to seek the help they need. It took my husband 16 months after I moved out to hit bottom and seek recovery for his alcoholism. I couldn't get him to see the problem or force him to seek help.


I'm certain it would take me moving out to make my wife wake up from the false world of victimhood she inhabits. She might be sufficiently hard-core to not snap out of it, of course. The trouble is that if I move out, I'd be so angry with her for me having to go to that extent that I can't imagine coming back whether she wakes up or not. 



> So you took the test to determine if your wife has BPD. Have you shown her the results? If this is her mental health problem, perhaps you should try to sit down and tell her about your concerns. Do you feel she would be willing to consider that her problems might stem from a treatable mental disorder? Doesn't sound like she would be particularly willing, consider MC didn't pan out ... still, you can give it a shot.


No, I haven't shown her the results. It's hard for me to imagine she'd take it seriously. One of her standard tactics is to throw things back at me. Whenever I try a different tack, or try to shed some new light on the issues, she either immediately or soon, throws the observation/accusation/insight/etc. back at me. It's easier than thinking for herself, of course.

I asked her if her dad, being in the armed forces, ever went away for long periods of time. Of course he did. I asked her if she resented him or was deeply disturbed by his absences. She said that on the contrary, she and her father were so alienated that she was glad to see him go away. I asked her why this was so. She said it was because her father often criticized her for not accomplishing more.

I can understand her father's viewpoint. She has the intelligence to do live a far richer life, but instead chooses to do even trivial actions from the standard of what's "good enough".

I, on the other hand, tend toward perfectionism, so that is part of the structure of why our relationship is dysfunctional.

As for the BPD test, I suppose I have little to lose by showing it to her. I also did the test a second time, answering as I imagine she would if she were doing it about me.


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## onsyde (Aug 2, 2011)

Laurae1967 said:


> Buddy, you are delusional to think the crazy behavior in your household isn't impacting your child and the fact that you are talking to your 10 year old child about your f&cked up marriage says a lot about your lack of appropriate boundaries with your child.
> 
> For christ sake, get into counseling for the sake of your child. You are living in bizarro land and you don't even know it but your child sure as hell does.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how kids that age can "know we're living in bizzaro land" but it should be hidden from them. I don't think it can be hidden from them, and it might be that trying to hide it from them can be a message that they are an unimportant element of the family. Our child usually leaves the scene if a conflict erupts, but it's not always possible. Obviously one should try not to let things get too ugly in front of children. We don't smash things, for instance, and which I gather is not that uncommon.

Our child is sophisticated enough that I see her baiting my wife, "pushing her buttons", easily causing my wife to erupt into shouting at her. I never shout at our child, and I explain to her that she should not bait her mother. That doing so is the same dysfunctional behavior as her mother's. In fact, I have called her out in front of my wife for doing this. Our child does not bait me because she knows I won't fall for the game, and it will only get her into trouble with me if she tries. I call her on it if and when I see her being disrespectful toward her mother, (or me).

Hopefully that fleshes out the picture some more for you.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

You two need some serious counseling. You each have become increasingly committed to self-justification and criticism of your spouse. You both need to be a lot more flexible and interested in the marriage.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

I remember when I was 10 and used to pray to God that my parents would get divorced so I could finally live in a chaos-free, drama-free home. They never did. Now they are both bitter and unhappy and it is too late for anything now. They should have got divorced so they could at least attempt to find someone else that would make them happy. Or at least stop fighting.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

You are not getting what I am saying. A ten year old does not have the emotional maturity to make sense of you and your wife's toxic marriage. It is way beyond her comprehension. So stop parentifying your child!

You and your wife are unhealthy in your own ways and your daugher is the victim. You can't talk your daughter out of the damage you are causing to her every day. It doesn't work that way. You have to LIVE and BEHAVE as a healthy adult and you are your wife are clearly not doing that. Your daughter is living in chaos and you are trying to sugar coat it by saying she's "sophisticated". Give me a break.

Get professional help ASAP. That is what you can do to help your daughter.


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## onsyde (Aug 2, 2011)

Laurae1967 said:


> You are not getting what I am saying. A ten year old does not have the emotional maturity to make sense of you and your wife's toxic marriage. It is way beyond her comprehension. So stop parentifying your child!
> 
> You and your wife are unhealthy in your own ways and your daugher is the victim. You can't talk your daughter out of the damage you are causing to her every day. It doesn't work that way. You have to LIVE and BEHAVE as a healthy adult and you are your wife are clearly not doing that. Your daughter is living in chaos and you are trying to sugar coat it by saying she's "sophisticated". Give me a break.
> 
> Get professional help ASAP. That is what you can do to help your daughter.


This sounds quite serious. What should I be looking for that would indicate the harm being done to our daughter?

I'm also not sure what you mean by "parentifying" the child.


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## kekel1123 (Aug 17, 2011)

onsyde said:


> This sounds quite serious. What should I be looking for that would indicate the harm being done to our daughter?
> 
> I'm also not sure what you mean by "parentifying" the child.


I believed that marriage is a lifetime commitment. Its either you talk issues or not. It's easy to advice divorce, because its the easiest way out for either one of you .Being married is a working process, If people wanted to get out of this lifetime commitment, they should not have commited to bring a child in this world in the first place and then when the relationship turns sour or not as we wanted, either one of us will get out and do the seperation/divorce thing.I dont know, people did get married and when they do, divorce or seperation is the furthest on their mind. Its a commitment! Divorce is getting out of that commitment for our own selfishness (specially if we bought kids out of this world). We should have not bought offsprings when we do get married if we want a divorce later on. Its just unfair for the kids.Some says its unfair to bought up kids in a dysfunctional family, if its dysfunctional in the first place, then do evrything, work it out among couples to make it functional for the couples sake and the kids sake as well. I think whats happening is one or both of the couple is acting as childish/immature. Shame on US! I can relate to this situation.


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

I just want to get in my two cents worth on the child. I don't agree that it is better for a child to be in a bad home than to have the parents divorce. 

I agree with Dr. Phil when he says "a child would rather be FROM a broken home than living IN a broken home". 

I really wish I had left me EX years before I did. I think my daughter would have been better off living in a peaceful home with me than being exposed to our fights on almost a daily basis.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

onsyde said:


> What should I be looking for that would indicate the harm being done to our daughter?
> 
> I'm also not sure what you mean by "parentifying" the child.


Don't bother looking. Children are masters at hiding the trauma. I was 10. I was traumatized. I darned well knew something was very, very wrong. I had anxiety attacks, but I had them in the bathroom or in my bedroom at night. I cried myself to sleep. I never let on I was a mess to my parents, because I felt it would let them down.

You are coming from the direction that your child is "sophisticated" enough to comprehend all you are telling her; namely adult subject matter. She sees the eruptions between you and your wife from time to time. She senses the tension. She also knows mom is kinda nutty, because she knows how to bait mom. Regardless of how adept she is at baiting, or how much she seems to understand, SHE IS A CHILD. She gets it to a point, but it is still a scarey place she inhabits. This is what Laurae means when she says you are "parentizing" your child. She is the miniature adult stuck in the middle as referee, and the two big people are carrying on like children.

Trust me. I lived with this type of crap for 19 long years. Then I left. It took years of therapy to get me past the damage.

I believe you love your daughter very much, but it's time to get off the merry-go-round.


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## onsyde (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks to those who offered advice for me 7 years ago. Though to be frank the variety of advice limited its value as guidance.

My situation has changed and I thought it was worth contributing an update.

Basically the situation became more problematic than getting out. So I moved out.

Those who know these things would have immediately recognized I was married to someone with sociopathic issues. I did several things to make the situation tolerable. 

I sought advice from friends and here. Male friends were non-committal. Female friends told me to get out. The best advice here was that sociopathy is incurable and I should get out.

I kept written records of the blowups and confrontations. I considered what was best for our child. I balanced the hassles and cost of staying against the hassles and cost of leaving. I made distant preparations for separation. I thought my wife was smart enough and had a sufficiently good core that she would wake up to how her behavior was making everyone around her, and herself, miserable.

But the intensity of the confrontations gradually escalated to occasional instances of shoving. Involvement of the police was one step away from that. I was not willing to have our child witness that, and my self-respect did not allow me to be a party to police action. I wanted to set an example for our child how to handle a toxic relationship.

So I got out. I kept my preparations secret since life at home would go to a new level of hell if my wife knew I was leaving. A basic rule of dealing with sociopathic personalities is to tell them as little as possible. Anything they know they will use against you. 

I made a list of what I would take. I arranged a new place. I waited until she was away for a few days and completed my move, from scratch, during that time. This avoided screaming matches over various possessions in the driveway or at the new place. The move went smoothly and there has been next to no didsgreement about who got what.

That was about 15 months ago. We are in minimal contact for matters related to our daughter, the house, and which of us attends social events that formerly included both of us. Neither of us has a new partner. Our child said the separation was overall for the better, and we should have separated earlier. 

My lessons learned for choosing a spouse:

Having no friends raises a huge red flag. It probably means they have no grasp of the reciprocation of friendship. It means they have no one else to turn to for support and they are dependent entirely on you for company.

Similarly, having no hobbies or strong interests should be a concern.

If the thing they put the most passion and energy into is conflict, run away.

Inlaws whose company makes you feel you are losing your grip on reality, is a bad sign.

Consistent lack of concern for the needs of others is significant. From major matters like financial affairs to matters as minor as alwzys leaving shopping carts in the middle of a busy isles, or not moving aside to make more room for someone approaching in a corridor.

We are all sociopathic to some extent. But living with someone with an idiosyncratic level of sociopathy, or worse, is untenable. You cannot cure them. If the approach of your spouse causes you go feel dread, get out. Judge whether staying or leaving is best for any children involved. If you get beyond screaming insults, you must prepare to leave. If you get into shoving, get out before it gets worse. Keep your plans secret. If there is hitting, get out immediately.

This leaves a lot unsaid, so I'm ok with answering questions.


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## ihatethis (Oct 17, 2013)

Glad that you got out and glad that your daughter said it was for the better. Hope you're doing ok.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Thanks for the update. What's the plan at this point? Divorce? Continued separation?

Am I right when I sense the two of you are getting along with each other on at least some minimal basis?

Your daughter is what, 16 or 17 now? It sounds like she's doing as well with this as she can based on the little you provided, but is that really the case? How are you all dividing up physical custody?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

ihatethis said:


> You're taking your daughters childhood/innocence away by involving her in such adult matters. I 100% do not agree that a child is better off in an unhappy home with 2 parents than happy parents apart.
> 
> Please get out, and if your wife has BPD, you should take your daughter with.
> 
> I hope it's not too late for your daughter.


You might want to at least read the post above yours. He did get out. He didn't say that he took his daughter with him, but she's 17 years old, old enough to choose which parent to live with.


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## onsyde (Aug 2, 2011)

To answer your thoughts...

Of course when you make your decision you are never sure it was the right one. You are wracked with doubt. Eventually I could say definitely it was the right move. Too soon or too late? I don't know.

I am doing far better. My chronic low-level anxiety is gone. My risk of being involved in an assault matter is gone. No one screams insults at me. I can do more of what I want. 

Our daughter certainly is doing better. At first she chose to divide her time 50/50. She said being at home was stressful because my wife kept accusing her of being on my side and being party to my escape scheme. Which was false. She said coming to my place was like a vacation to a place of calm. 

But after about 8 months she changed the arrangement. Only every second weekend at my place. This hit me like a punch in the gut. There were practical reasons. My wife had relaxed. Moving clothing etc. between two places was a hassle. The house was where she grew up. They also got a cat and bonded. The only way I could adjust to this change was to realize that if both of them favored this schedule, there was nothing I could do about it. And I had had no choice but to move out. Our reduced time together is very enjoyable for both of us. Daughter and I went on a month-long overseas vacation together last summer. But I do think her choice of the new arrangement hurt my relationship with her. And yes we have thoroughly discussed this.

I may mention this discussion to her and see if she wants to say anything to you.

At this point my wife and I are continuing separation. There doesn't seem to be any compelling reason not to. Neither has a prospective alternate partner. Divorce would mean sale of the family home and my wife would have to move out since she could not afford to buy out my half. We have only as much contact as necessary and I don't see that changing. Such as mail delivered to the wrong place.

I want to address earlier criticism that we were abdicating our roles as adults and stressing our then-10 year old by leaning on her. We found early on in parenthood it was essential to emphasize that we were the adults. Parents should be their kids' rock. Kids don't want to run things and they become maladjusted if they sense the kids are in charge. Because they know they shouldn't be in charge. (Screaming at your kid, as my wife did and I never did, just shows the child you are not in control of yourself.) So our private discussions with her about our bad marriage were to keep her informed, maintain her perspective of the trouble and emphasize the importance to us of her well-being. We did not go to her for advice, but we let her know her feelings were important to us. I think we handled that as positively as possible.

She has grown into a remarkable person. We never have to pressure her to do homework or get up in the morning. She makes breakfast and lunch for herself and gets to school on time. Completely self-regulating. She does very well at school and has a fine circle of friends who puts the lie to all the stories about young people going to hell. She knows the importance of being educated and getting a good job, and has plans in place to do so. Teachers and our friends think the world of her. And that's not just parental bias. We're very proud of her and I'm so grateful such a fine person can come out of a dysfunctional household.


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