# Intro - Need Advice



## Cartman35

Hello-

My name is Matt. I am 35 years old.

Looking for your feedback regarding my conundrum: 

My wife and I were high school sweethearts. We had a child (now 17) at 18 years old, but didn't end up "officially" getting married until about 10 years ago. Here it goes:

Immediately after high school, both my wife and I went to college (while working full time to provide for our daughter). We both succeeded at obtaining degrees and obtaining good jobs in our fields. After my bachelors degree, I went on to obtain a masters degree (again, while working full time). This really excelled my career, and things continued down this path for about 13 years.

After 13 years in my field, I became burnt out and decided I needed a career change. After much consideration, I decided upon law school (again, all while working full time in my previous career). My wife was very supportive of my goal to become a lawyer. About 2 years into the law program, I was succeeding, but was EXTREMELY stressed and unstable. I would work from 7:30am - 5:30pm, and then I would be in school from 6:30pm - 10pm four nights a week. On top of that, studying and exam preparation probably took upwards of 20 - 30 hours per week outside of the time I was in class. I went to school strait through summers, no breaks.

Anyway, I explain the above to give you an idea of my mindset (or lack there of) during this time. I was in a bad place. Ultimately, I started to become distant from my family. School and work consumed me. I began to hang-out with my law school counterparts after classes, would drink excessively, and sometimes would not come home until 1 or 2 in the morning. After much thought, the best explanation I can give is that I simply was overcome with stress and this is how I dealt with it.

While the pressure was already building at home, it came to a head based on one major event. I was out late one night with my law school counterparts. After the bar, me and a couple other individuals (both female) went to the apartment of another classmate. A few hours later, I went home. LET ME BE VERY CLEAR HERE......I DID NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR. THERE WAS NO CHEATING.....PERIOD. The next morning when my wife asked where I was the previous night, I lied and said that I was picking some items up from my office for a presentation the next day. I did not want her to question why I was in someone else's apartment at 2am on a weekday. Long story short, she had tracked my movements via my cell phone and knew that I was lying. 

My wife was sure that I was cheating (which I wasn't), but the discussion became heated and I started venting as to the status of our relationship (stupid, I know). As previously mentioned, I was not in a good state of mind due to everything going on at school/work/etc. I complained about her attitude towards met....I complained about how frustrated I was that "fitness" was not part of her life.....I complained about our sex life. She became very depressed. Although depressed, she took significant steps to meet my complaints. She lost weight, our sex life got better, and her attitude became friendlier. Eventually we reconciled (although she still thinks I was having an affair to this day). I don't want to fail to mention, I am not proud of this. I handled the situation horrendously.

A couple more years go by. I finish law school and am having success in the field. Around the time I finished law school, my wife switches companies and starts a new position. At this point, she has made significant improvements in her physical appearance and was undoubtedly getting more attention from men. 

A couple of days ago I was blindsided when I opened a laptop and her imessage account was open. Essentially, she was having a "sexually natured" conversation (text) with a male co-worker. I confronted her on it, which she quickly admitted to. She was regretful. While I don't think that their relationship has progressed beyond the messages, I really have no way of knowing.

While regretful, she said that she feels she did it because it felt good for her to get the attention I was not giving her at home. She went on to explain how she still doesn't believe I didn't have an affair, and how my comments on ways she could "improve" (weightloss, sex, etc) damaged her emotionally.

I don't know what to do. I accept blame for damaging her emotionally and for being a complete ******* for the several years I was finishing school. That definitely happened. I know that my personality is sometimes harsh and un-empathetic. I realize that I am stubborn and always have to be right (it must be the lawyer in me). 

My initial reaction was that I was willing to work through the "affair" (again, I do not know the extent). I love her and do not want to throw 17 years out the window. When I said this to her, however, my wife said that she was not willing to jump back in that quickly. She said she needed to take some time to evaluate the situation and what she wants in life. She said that she has not been happy with our relationship for a long time, and although she tried not to, she still resents me for the incident I described above.

What should I do? She has asked for her "space" to collect her thoughts. There are significant trust issues on both sides of the equation. While I want to give her the space she needs, I don't want this to turn into her somehow controlling me. I accept some responsibility, but she is the one that got caught doing this!! Should I move out for awhile? Should I file for divorce? I am completely confused as to what to do. The situation is further complicated by the fact we do have a 17 year old daughter the loves and relies on both of us. I don't want to hurt her either.

Thanks for your thoughts


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## Marc878

Cartman35 said:


> While the pressure was already building at home, it came to a head based on one major event. I was out late one night with my law school counterparts. After the bar, me and a couple other individuals (both female) went to the apartment of another classmate. A few hours later, I went home. LET ME BE VERY CLEAR HERE......I DID NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR. THERE WAS NO CHEATING.....PERIOD. The next morning when my wife asked where I was the previous night, I lied and said that I was picking some items up from my office for a presentation the next day. I did not want her to question why I was in someone else's apartment at 2am on a weekday. Long story short, she had tracked my movements via my cell phone and knew that I was lying.
> 
> Why lie? Look what it gets you.
> 
> A couple more years go by. I finish law school and am having success in the field. Around the time I finished law school, my wife switches companies and starts a new position. At this point, she has made significant improvements in her physical appearance and was undoubtedly getting more attention from men.
> 
> A couple of days ago I was blindsided when I opened a laptop and her imessage account was open. Essentially, she was having a "sexually natured" conversation (text) with a male co-worker. I confronted her on it, which she quickly admitted to. She was regretful. While *I don't think that their relationship has progressed beyond the messages, I really have no way of knowing.*
> 
> Most betrayed spouse always want to believe it was just an emotional affair. If they have contact it's usually physical.
> 
> While regretful, she said that she feels she did it because it felt good for her to get the attention I was not giving her at home. She went on to explain how she still doesn't believe I didn't have an affair, and how my comments on ways she could "improve" (weightloss, sex, etc) damaged her emotionally.
> 
> Bull**** excuse. She did it because she wanted to.
> 
> I don't know what to do. I accept blame for damaging her emotionally and for being a complete ******* for the several years I was finishing school. That definitely happened. I know that my personality is sometimes harsh and un-empathetic. I realize that I am stubborn and always have to be right (it must be the lawyer in me).
> 
> Yep, you have your issues that you need to work on but it didn't cause her to cheat. Most betrayed want to try and justify their behavior because they don't eat to believe that their spouse would just cheat but they did.
> 
> My initial reaction was that I was willing to work through the "affair" (again, I do not know the extent). I love her and do not want to throw 17 years out the window. *When I said this to her, however, my wife said that she was not willing to jump back in that quickly. She said she needed to take some time to evaluate the situation and what she wants in life. She said that she has not been happy with our relationship for a long time, and although she tried not to, she still resents me for the incident I described above.*
> 
> She's in deep with her other man and doesn't want to give him up. You made a huge mistake of offering Reconcilliation right of the bat. You lowered your status to a weak plan B
> 
> What should I do? *She has asked for her "space" to collect her thoughts.* There are significant trust issues on both sides of the equation. While I want to give her the space she needs, I don't want this to turn into her somehow controlling me. I accept some responsibility, but she is the one that got caught doing this!! Should I move out for awhile? Should I file for divorce? I am completely confused as to what to do. The situation is further complicated by the fact we do have a 17 year old daughter the loves and relies on both of us. I don't want to hurt her either.
> 
> Cheater speak. I want time and space to try out my other man


I'd bet he's married. Inform his wife without any warning or letting your wife know immediately. It's the quickest way to end an affair.

Better wake up here. 

No marriage can be worked on with another man in the mix. Just because you found out doesn't mean it'll stop.

Don't worry about pushing her away she's already gone. Exposure is the best way to end her fantasy. Affairs only survive in secret and darkness.

Get strong quick. Being weak and afraid will just get you more of what you're getting.

Go online and check your phone bill. I suspect you'll get a shock. Keep digging.


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## Marc878

Do not jump into marriage counciling either.


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## sunsetmist

*Anyway, I explain the above to give you an idea of my mindset (or lack there of) during this time. I was in a bad place. Ultimately, I started to become distant from my family. School and work consumed me. I began to hang-out with my law school counterparts after classes, would drink excessively, and sometimes would not come home until 1 or 2 in the morning. After much thought, the best explanation I can give is that I simply was overcome with stress and this is how I dealt with it.

While the pressure was already building at home, it came to a head based on one major event. I was out late one night with my law school counterparts. After the bar, me and a couple other individuals (both female) went to the apartment of another classmate. A few hours later, I went home. LET ME BE VERY CLEAR HERE......I DID NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR. THERE WAS NO CHEATING.....PERIOD. The next morning when my wife asked where I was the previous night, I lied and said that I was picking some items up from my office for a presentation the next day. I did not want her to question why I was in someone else's apartment at 2am on a weekday. Long story short, she had tracked my movements via my cell phone and knew that I was lying. *

You show multiple signs of a cheater--I'd have agreed with your wife. She tracked you and you lied after withdrawing in your marriage. Just what were you doing--any touch, flirt, at all or were you having tea? Your wife withdrew from connection to you to protect herself. After all, you shamed the way she looked and were hanging with other women. Your state of mind excuse means anytime things are too stressed with you, instead of sharing with your wife, you turn to others. 

You both have a lot of work if you choose to try to restore this marriage.


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## Lostinthought61

i suggest that you tell her that you will take a polygraph to prove to her that you did not have a physical affair but can she do the same.....i but she'll yes but she'll back pedal as it gets closer to that day...if you give her space she will automatically cheat...might has well tell her that you will instead give her, her walking papers.


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## BluesPower

You sir are an ass hat. If you are smart enough to go to law school the you should have been smart enough to take a polygraph about the affair you did not have. 

And what in the hell were you doing out drinking when you were working full time and going to school. 

OK, you wife is sleeping with this guy, and I will break from tradition and say that it is completely your fault. Yep, the crap you pulled. 

Now she may not leave you for him, but yeah, she is done with you. 

BTW, you are not half as smart as you think you are. She is stepping back from you now, because she is asking the OM if he will leave his wife and be with her. 

You are toast...


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## TJW

Cartman35 said:


> I accept some responsibility, but she is the one that got caught doing this!!


I think @Lostinthought61 has the right idea. You are responsible for your action in staying out all night and not bringing that to a complete resolution after it happened.

But you are not responsible for "making" her cheat, just like she was not responsible for making you stay out. I think you will get a "parking-lot confession" on the way to her polygraph. 



Cartman35 said:


> While regretful, she said that she feels _she did it because it felt good for her_ to get the attention I was not giving her at home. She went on to explain how she still doesn't believe I didn't have an affair, and how my comments on ways she could "improve" (weightloss, sex, etc) damaged her emotionally.


The "because it felt good for her" is the truth. That is 100%, completely, totally, why she did it. The rest of that is blame-shifting. She regrets getting caught, but she is not repentant for having done it.



Cartman35 said:


> Should I move out for awhile?


No. At least, not until you speak to an attorney. Find out where you stand, and what the results of any future actions will be. First. You don't have to act legally, just get the attorney's advice on your situation and what outcomes you can expect from future choices you may make.



Cartman35 said:


> I don't want to hurt her either.


I can appreciate that, and I don't believe that any of us should seek revenge, no matter what is done to us. However, that being said, you do need to protect yourself should your marriage break.


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## Decorum

Space means you have been replaced. 

She thinks the grass may greener somewhere else. She has emotionally detached from you. Do not agree to space or a break. 

It is divorce or nothing, unless you agree to a break where you can see other people. That has some equality to it.

Typically a women will ask for space to give another relationship time to develop to see if the other man will make a "nest" with her.

If so she will fly to him and leave you. It is pretty serious.


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## manfromlamancha

How "sexual" was the text conversation that you saw ? Did it give you a sense of how developed it was or how long it might have been going on in terms of how familiar they were?

How did she meet him?

Who initiated ?

Much more info needed by you to determine how evolved this affair is.

She is cheating. You were wrong to lie but that is the only thing that you need to come clean about and explain why you lied. Then ... make sure that she understands that not only did you not cheat but also that 

(a) She is cheating
(b) You will not take any blame or responsibility for her cheating 
(c) Even if you did cheat (which you did not) - two wrongs would not make a right.

So in every way - she is in the wrong and you should not tolerate her affair. You need to get out of infidelity and not be afraid to lose her in the process. 

If she does not go NC immediately - then there is no question about going straight to D - dont bother with MC or separation - both would be useless.

If she does agree to NC - then do not let her sit on her laurels - she needs to prove to you that she wants to be in the marriage - anything less and again, go straight to D.

And do not move out under any circumstances - she is cheating, she should move out.

Good luck with reclaiming your self respect.


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## BigDigg

Sorry OP - from my perspective you might be in trouble. Basically you treated her poorly for a long time. You were selfish. You showed her a side of you that hurt her. She got with the program to preserve the family but she probably checked out emotionally a long time ago. That damage is done. Now she's more confident in her body and herself and she knows she has options. She started young with you and never had a chance to explore and is probably curious. She knows what's behind door #1 (you) and it wasn't kind to her.

Honest question (and I know and appreciate that you've been VERY honest in your post about your past failures) - Can you blame her?


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## personofinterest

Let me say this 1st… it is in excusable for your wife to have any intimate conversations of any kind with another man. There is nothing that justifies this period

However, because I read your entire post, it is very clear that both of you have made some major missteps in this marriage. I can understand why your wife thought you were cheating. Both of you have work to do. Anyone who focuses only on your wife's actions is incapable of being objective, because there is absolutely shared blame here.


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## Cartman35

Thank you all for your feedback. To answer the a couple of questions y'all asked:

1. During the incident in which I lied about my whereabouts, we were having some cocktails and discussing various topics (mostly school related). I will acknowledge that one of the individuals present was flirtatious and showed heavy interest in me during our interactions. That said, while I may have "flirted" back (or at least was never 100% clear with this individual that I was not interested), it never reached the level of any type of affair. In hindsight, given the way she was coming on to me, I should have used better judgement and completely stayed away! No interaction. That would have been the right thing to do out of respect for my wife. But, it never reached the level of an affair of any type.

2. No...I can't blame her for the way she feels about me and our relationship. The way I have treated her has absolutely damaged her emotionally. When our relationship "improved" following our reconciliation, deeper thought has led me to understand that was nothing but smoke and mirrors. She was doing what she though would "save" the marriage. The damage was done. Does not excuse her actions regarding the affair. She has made some mistakes here too.

3. The OM is married w/ children.

4. One more additional fact. When I confronted my wife about the messages, it was not a well planned or thought out process. I was literally enraged. Almost an out of body experience type of rage. I can't even recall exactly what was said, but my wife has told me that I pretty much went as low as I possibly could when it came to name calling, etc. This upsets me as I have always prided myself in not going for the "lowest of blows" per say during arguments. I just completely lost control.

Just to be clear, my goal here isn't to "get the upper hand" or come out of this looking good. I could care less about that right now. My objective is to determine whether or not the marriage can be saved, and if so, what actions give us the best chance of doing that. I do love her very much. Wife may not even be open to reconciliation. Based on #2 above, I don't know that it is possible for us to ever recover. Even if we decide to try to work it out, I don't know that the deep seeded impact will ever go away. It will always linger. I don't know that any amount of counseling will change that. That said, maybe a separation/divorce is the best thing. I just don't know????


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## SentHereForAReason

Cartman35 said:


> Thank you all for your feedback. To answer the a couple of questions y'all asked:
> 
> 1. During the incident in which I lied about my whereabouts, we were having some cocktails and discussing various topics (mostly school related). I will acknowledge that one of the individuals present was flirtatious and showed heavy interest in me during our interactions. That said, while I may have "flirted" back (or at least was never 100% clear with this individual that I was not interested), it never reached the level of any type of affair. In hindsight, given the way she was coming on to me, I should have used better judgement and completely stayed away! No interaction. That would have been the right thing to do out of respect for my wife. But, it never reached the level of an affair of any type.
> 
> 2. No...I can't blame her for the way she feels about me and our relationship. The way I have treated her has absolutely damaged her emotionally. When our relationship "improved" following our reconciliation, deeper thought has led me to understand that was nothing but smoke and mirrors. She was doing what she though would "save" the marriage. The damage was done. Does not excuse her actions regarding the affair. She has made some mistakes here too.
> 
> 3. The OM is married w/ children.
> 
> 4. One more additional fact. When I confronted my wife about the messages, it was not a well planned or thought out process. I was literally enraged. Almost an out of body experience type of rage. I can't even recall exactly what was said, but my wife has told me that I pretty much went as low as I possibly could when it came to name calling, etc. This upsets me as I have always prided myself in not going for the "lowest of blows" per say during arguments. I just completely lost control.
> 
> Just to be clear, my goal here isn't to "get the upper hand" or come out of this looking good. I could care less about that right now. My objective is to determine whether or not the marriage can be saved, and if so, what actions give us the best chance of doing that. I do love her very much. Wife may not even be open to reconciliation. Based on #2 above, I don't know that it is possible for us to ever recover. Even if we decide to try to work it out, I don't know that the deep seeded impact will ever go away. It will always linger. I don't know that any amount of counseling will change that. That said, maybe a separation/divorce is the best thing. I just don't know????


I'm going to give you my advice from the perspective of doing the 'right' thing, being righteous, etc but before I do that I need to know. Do you know how to reach OM's wife?


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## EveningThoughts

A touch of karma at work here maybe.

Your wife will never know if you did or didn't have an affair. You were certainly absent from the marriage and neglected your wife's heart. On top of that you then say such hurtful things to her and try and blame her for your behaviour. Even though she is depressed she tries to please you and improve herself.

Your wife has now done the same to you. 
You will not know if she did or didn't go further. How does that feel? Does it give you some understanding of her fears?

She says you are not giving her attention. Is this true or is she doing what you did and blame shifting? 
If after her improvements you are still not giving her attention, then she may have given up on you and hardened her heart.

You both need to really talk and listen to each other now. You both have felt hurt in this marriage and need to find out if it's worth saving


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## Cartman35

​


SentHereForAReason said:


> I'm going to give you my advice from the perspective of doing the 'right' thing, being righteous, etc but before I do that I need to know. Do you know how to reach OM's wife?


Yes, I do know how to reach OM's wife. Not sure exactly where you are going with this (but I would like your input), but I have considered disclosing. Ultimately, I don't know that tearing apart his family out of my own hurt/anger is justified.


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## Cartman35

EveningThoughts said:


> A touch of karma at work here maybe.
> 
> Your wife will never know if you did or didn't have an affair. You were certainly absent from the marriage and neglected your wife's heart. On top of that you then say such hurtful things to her and try and blame her for your behaviour. Even though she is depressed she tries to please you and improve herself.
> 
> Your wife has now done the same to you.
> You will not know if she did or didn't go further. How does that feel? Does it give you some understanding of her fears?
> 
> Yes. I completely understand her fears. Once trust is gone, there is no real way to completely unwind it.
> 
> She says you are not giving her attention. Is this true or is she doing what you did and blame shifting?
> If after her improvements you are still not giving her attention, then she may have given up on you and hardened her heart.
> 
> Valid question. I would say there is some truth to it. I don't think the issue is that I don't give her attention, its that I don't communicate in the same ways she does/would/appreciates. She is naturally a very empathetic and thoughtful individual. I on the other hand, am naturally very blunt and see things as black/white. She has described it as selfish. I don't know that selfish is the right word, but I think that our personality traits when it comes to emotions and communication are very different.
> 
> You both need to really talk and listen to each other now. You both have felt hurt in this marriage and need to find out if it's worth saving


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## SentHereForAReason

Cartman35 said:


> ​
> Yes, I do know how to reach OM's wife. Not sure exactly where you are going with this (but I would like your input), but I have considered disclosing. Ultimately, I don't know that tearing apart his family out of my own hurt/anger is justified.


I feel I need to disclose this first. That I am a person of Faith that takes that seriously and is in favor of reconciliation in most cases where both parties want to save the marriage, to move on and forgive and forge a new marriage. That's what I believe. So having said that, I understanding the logic that you have now, that you think by telling the OM's wife, that you would be doing it out of revenge or anger, that is a normal gut instinct and I'm sure many would do it from that perspective but no matter what the mindset is .... you DO have to tell OM's wife and you have to do it after you have made a plan and you do it with respect and you do it SOON!

If you want to save this marriage, the most important thing you can do, is go all in, understand your own mistakes and hurt that you have caused her and go in for the long haul that it's going to require to create a NEW marriage between you 2. That involves counseling, understanding and an open mind ..... HOWEVER because of what is going on now, that stuff I just mentioned has to come AFTER you attempt to stick a stake in into the heart of this affair.

The most effective weapon and no if ands or buts about it will be telling the OM's wife. Affairs thrive in secrecy, in the dark and must come to light. You don't have to write a f'n manifesto or tell the world or go scorched earth as they say but you can't keep it a secret, it will allow the affair to thrive even when you think it might be over and clearly, it's not going to end anytime soon as it sits now, her words are right out of the script of the Wayward Spouse that has basically chosen the affair over the marriage and needs time to figure out how she can make that work still and still live with herself and who she is.

You may think you are going to pi$$ your wife off like no other and you probably will but that cannot be a deterrent. No matter what she says after you have done it, it will have done the best thing you have done to save the marriage, I am being dead serious sir, this cannot be tabled.

Now, that is just in regards to saving the marriage. The other reason you need to tell OM's wife. Is because it's the right thing to do for her as well. OM's wife will probably be devastated, may even be in denial and blame you, that happens sometimes but in the end, it will open her eyes and give her the best chance at saving her own marriage and family. 

Telling OM's wife goes against the very logic and instinct of those of us that try to be just and no vengeful when this all happens, I have been there. Many of us have been there and many of us have been too late. I waited to long in my case but after reading many books, talking to specialists, etc. This is the 'RIGHT' thing to do. Where I differ from others on the board is some will recommend going 'scorched earth'. I don't believe that's right at this point and in this case she needs to know. Collect the info you have and as I have said, reach out to her and make sure you do it with empathy and respect and let her know you are doing it with hopes she can use the info to save her own marriage.

Once this is done and the dust has settled, you can then be on more of an even playing field and you can start to atone for your own sh** but none of that is going to help now and it's frankly just going to be used against you for justification. Keep posting and good luck!


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## Evinrude58

My thoughts:

LIsten to marc 878. He's exactly correct.
Decorum: spot on.

Here's the thing: You are going to feel like this is all your fault. It's quite clear that is what your mind is doing to you. You are in the process of trying to nice your wife back. Sir, it flat out WILL NOT WORK.

Other posters have told you what it means when a woman in an affair is asking for space. They are EXACTLY right. 
At this point, ANYTHING you do other than filing for divorce and going completely dark on your wife will have the opposite effect than what you want.
If you want your wife back, the only chance you have is exposing the OM to his wife, WITH EVIDENCE, because she won't want to believe it and the OM will paint you as a crazy. You have to expose suddenly without warning.
If you chase your wife, she will run.
If you give her "space", it will be to allow her to have sex and develop the relationship with the OM, or other OTHER MEN.
This is guaranteed.

TO BE CLEAR: Your past has ZERO to do with her cheating. IT's ALL on her. Lots of men have been just as rotten as you may have been, but their wives didn't cheat. She chose to do this. If you cheated on your wife and can't bring yourself to say so, you are reaping what you've sown. It def. planted a seed of betrayal. However, she just used that as an excuse. 

Since your wife is wanting space and is soon to give you the ILYBINILWY, you should file for divorce, expose the OM, and start to detach.
That is your best chance of happiness. This advice will help you if you want her back, and it will help you if you wind up having to divorce anyway.
I know you're hurting. If you show weakness and attempt to "work things out", you're toast for sure. 90% chance it's over anyway.

Now is the pivotal moment in your life where you are cut off at the knees, but need to have the strength of ten men. Weakness will get you nothing but a divorce.

I'm sorry.


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## Evinrude58

SentHereForAReason said:


> I feel I need to disclose this first. That I am a person of Faith that takes that seriously and is in favor of reconciliation in most cases where both parties want to save the marriage, to move on and forgive and forge a new marriage. That's what I believe. So having said that, I understanding the logic that you have now, that you think by telling the OM's wife, that you would be doing it out of revenge or anger, that is a normal gut instinct and I'm sure many would do it from that perspective but no matter what the mindset is .... you DO have to tell OM's wife and you have to do it after you have made a plan and you do it with respect and you do it SOON!
> 
> If you want to save this marriage, the most important thing you can do, is go all in, understand your own mistakes and hurt that you have caused her and go in for the long haul that it's going to require to create a NEW marriage between you 2. That involves counseling, understanding and an open mind ..... HOWEVER because of what is going on now, that stuff I just mentioned has to come AFTER you attempt to stick a stake in into the heart of this affair.
> 
> *The most effective weapon and no if ands or buts about it will be telling the OM's wife.* Affairs thrive in secrecy, in the dark and must come to light. You don't have to write a f'n manifesto or tell the world or go scorched earth as they say but you can't keep it a secret, it will allow the affair to thrive even when you think it might be over and clearly, it's not going to end anytime soon as it sits now, her words are right out of the script of the Wayward Spouse that has basically chosen the affair over the marriage and needs time to figure out how she can make that work still and still live with herself and who she is.
> 
> *You may think you are going to pi$$ your wife off like no other and you probably will but that cannot be a deterrent. No matter what she says after you have done it, it will have done the best thing you have done to save the marriage, I am being dead serious sir, this cannot be tabled.*
> 
> Now, that is just in regards to saving the marriage. The other reason you need to tell OM's wife. Is because it's the right thing to do for her as well. OM's wife will probably be devastated, may even be in denial and blame you, that happens sometimes but in the end, it will open her eyes and give her the best chance at saving her own marriage and family.
> 
> Telling OM's wife goes against the very logic and instinct of those of us that try to be just and no vengeful when this all happens, I have been there. Many of us have been there and many of us have been too late. I waited to long in my case but after reading many books, talking to specialists, etc. This is the 'RIGHT' thing to do. Where I differ from others on the board is some will recommend going 'scorched earth'. I don't believe that's right at this point and in this case she needs to know. Collect the info you have and as I have said, reach out to her and make sure you do it with empathy and respect and let her know you are doing it with hopes she can use the info to save her own marriage.
> 
> *Once this is done and the dust has settled, you can then be on more of an even playing field and you can start to atone for your own sh** but none of that is going to help now and it's frankly just going to be used against you for justification. Keep posting and good luck*!


excellent!

I totally agree that OP should expect his wife to justify her horrid behavior by making the OP feel it's all his fault. It's just how it works.
This affair stuff follows a script so closely....
OP should have already exposed OM. To have not done so is showing his weakened state of mind. You MUST do what is logically correct in this situation, and TOTALLY IGNORE what your own emotions make you want to do. 
STOP BLAMING YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP. 

Your wife needs to see that you are a strong man that can make it without her. She needs to see that this is a dealbreaker for you.
She needs to see what it feels like for you to be GONE from her life. This is the only thing that MIGHT break her state of mind, which is likely solely focused on her new "love".

Exposing the other man is the right thing to do all the way around. If it seems like revenge, all I can say is there is no suitable revenge for a man that is screwing or attempting to screw MY wife. All the gloves are off. YOU can't say anything that will destroy his life, unless it's true. And if it's truth, then it's ALL HIS FAULT....

EXPOSE. DO IT YESTERDAY.


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## BluesPower

Cartman35 said:


> Thank you all for your feedback. To answer the a couple of questions y'all asked:
> 
> 1. During the incident in which I lied about my whereabouts, we were having some cocktails and discussing various topics (mostly school related). I will acknowledge that one of the individuals present was flirtatious and showed heavy interest in me during our interactions. That said, while I may have "flirted" back (or at least was never 100% clear with this individual that I was not interested), it never reached the level of any type of affair. In hindsight, given the way she was coming on to me, I should have used better judgement and completely stayed away! No interaction. That would have been the right thing to do out of respect for my wife. But, it never reached the level of an affair of any type.
> 
> 2. No...I can't blame her for the way she feels about me and our relationship. The way I have treated her has absolutely damaged her emotionally. When our relationship "improved" following our reconciliation, deeper thought has led me to understand that was nothing but smoke and mirrors. She was doing what she though would "save" the marriage. The damage was done. Does not excuse her actions regarding the affair. She has made some mistakes here too.
> 
> 3. The OM is married w/ children.
> 
> 4. One more additional fact. When I confronted my wife about the messages, it was not a well planned or thought out process. I was literally enraged. Almost an out of body experience type of rage. I can't even recall exactly what was said, but my wife has told me that I pretty much went as low as I possibly could when it came to name calling, etc. This upsets me as I have always prided myself in not going for the "lowest of blows" per say during arguments. I just completely lost control.
> 
> Just to be clear, my goal here isn't to "get the upper hand" or come out of this looking good. I could care less about that right now. My objective is to determine whether or not the marriage can be saved, and if so, what actions give us the best chance of doing that. I do love her very much. Wife may not even be open to reconciliation. Based on #2 above, I don't know that it is possible for us to ever recover. Even if we decide to try to work it out, I don't know that the deep seeded impact will ever go away. It will always linger. I don't know that any amount of counseling will change that. That said, maybe a separation/divorce is the best thing. I just don't know????


Listen, I get that you are owning your crap, I get that. But you are not listening to the advice that is being given you, JUST like every lawyer in the world. 

You need to get over that. YOUR WIFE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR. She is and has been sleeping with him. 

Do you understand that? It is about a 99.999% chance that this is true. Don't believe me, then you and your wife need to go and take a polygraph, you can afford it. 

She will know that you were stupid but did not cheat and you will know that she is cheating. 

I get that you were and ass hat previously, but even with that, that does not give her a reason to sleep around on you. 

You need to wake up and understand what is going on, but you want to talk about all your bad deeds. 

So far, you have handled this entire thing in the worst possible way. 

You need to take polys, both of you. 

Then you need to decide if you can stay married to a wife that is sleeping around on you...


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## Decorum

I have seen these go a couple ways.

The husband waits around as his wife screws around, and gets it out of her system. Hopefully she realizes you are "the one" for her.

I could not do this myself.

The problem with resentment, as it often manifests in a women, is it's persistence. It nags at a woman like male lust, and it creates a crisis of destiny. 

By that I mean it causes them to not just question you, but "us".

Like lust it calls for a release.

There are many ways to resolve it, unfortunately getting on the Coc-carousel is a perennial favorite.

They have to be with him and miss you.

This is often what a woman means when she says she needs closure with an ex.

In this case a woman is subject to her feelings.

Your wife is already fantasizing about being with the guy who is giving her attention, and trust me there is a guy. 

She has already imagined what it wold be like to kiss him.

Since she is keeping alive the hurt and negative feelings for you, since she has already disconnected from you emotionally, there is NO WAY you can compete with him, atm.

By the time she is ready to risk the marriage by inappropriate contact, by the time she is willing to risk the relationship by asking for space, it is to late, to far gone to reverse course by standard means, for now at least.

The other option I would consider is doing the "honorable" thing and falling on your sword.

This is what it looks like to me.

"Honey the fact that you are unsure about "us" is on me, I know that.

You lost faith in me the night I stayed out late, and the hurtful words I spoke made you feel rejected and insecure.

It is hard to face that my actions have brought us to this place, because you are the love of my life, but I did not grow up fast enough to appreciate it.

I want you to know that I really admire the woman you have become.

Losing you will be the biggest regret of my life.

I have to be honest with you, I cannot wait around while you try out other guys. (Dont let her tell you that is not the case, just say, "its a binary choice and I will not be able to see it any other way", stand in YOUR truth.)

It is clear to me after all this time that you will never be able to extend trust and forgivenest to me. I cannot fault you for that, but I can't ignore it either.

I think our relationship has run its course and I have an appointment with an attorney next ?whenever?.

I am hoping we can end this relationship amiably, and as fairly as possible.

Since you have already been reaching out to other men, I suggest we just acknowledge and accept this as adults that we are moving on, and have an open marriage until the divorce is finalized. 

In my heart I wish there was some way to make it up to you, but in my head I know that is not possible. 

One thing that I will do, because I think you deserve it is to schedule a polygraph, so at least you can have some answers. 

You can come with me, and we can work on what questions would be best with the polygraph technician. 

I will answer any questions you ask. About that night, about my love, or any other doubt you may have.

I have been reading online and I did not realize how hurtful those lingering doubts, and questions are.

I would like you to have any questions you have answered before we split, if you are interested. 

I know this may be more "space" than you were expecting, but this is the best I can do. We are no longer the partners or team we wanted to be when we were wed.

I want to be clear, I am not asking you to agree, I am just letting you know my plans.

I am so very sorry I did this to us!"

I am just illustrating this as an exercise to think about, something that may help clarify the situation.

The last thing you want to do is chase her or beg her, it will only push her away.

If you say this you have to mean it!!!

I wish you both well.


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## azimuth

ETA: I want to emphasize that if she weren't happy and didn't truly forgive then she should not have agreed to stay married. It was wrong for her to have an affair, I totally agree. I'm not justifying at all. I just think the incident in the apartment + the excessive drinking with friends outside the marriage + telling her she needed to change her appearance, did major damage. She is not a woman of character to engage with the OM. I would say you aren't a man of character for engaging in your past behavior either, imo. But people can change and if you kill the affair now you have a chance to save it. Kudos for admitting the incident and describing the past so well, most people would leave that out.


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## Adelais

After having read your posts and most of the advice you have been given, I need to add a real life story to give you more perspective: I am a woman whose husband was in so deep he wanted to marry the OW. It didn't take much for him to realize he was not on the right path and to end it. The secrecy was a sort of protection from reality. Once the secrecy was gone, he couldn't carry on in good conscience anymore. It ended in a matter of days.

His conscience was fine while his affair was secret. He thought what he was doing was inevitable, that they were meant to be together, that our (mistake of a) marriage (in his mind) and societal constraints were what was keeping them apart. Once the veil of secrecy was gone, and he was confronted by real life people who did not agree with his assessment of his affair versus marriage, he realized he was in a full on adulterous affair, and that he was breaking his covenant with me, that all his friends would be disgusted by his behavior and that he had been in a sort of fairy tale land during the affair. It took him a month of being out of the affair for him to to realize he was still in love with me and always had been, (except while he was in the affair), that our marriage was not as bad as he had convinced himself that it was, and that he was a large part of the problem.

Your wife's OM will not leave his wife and children for her. When he realizes he is caught and his own marriage is in peril he will dump your wife like a hot potato. The more decisive his wife is the more likely he is to dump your wife immediately. If she threatens to divorce him and take the children, the more likely he will be to want to cling to his marriage and family. 

He (and your wife) will have serious withdrawals and want to be together, but the OM's desire to keep his marriage and children will be stronger than his desire to be with your wife.

If you are decisive, your wife will be desperate to save the marriage as well. Tell her that you will divorce her on grounds of adultery and that you will fight for full custody of your child, if your state is not a no fault state.

Make copies of all your evidence and give it to the OM's wife. She deserves to know, and although she will not become your friend, her knowing will be a plus toward ending the affair on OM's side.

If someone knew your wife was having an affair, and you didn't have a clue, wouldn't you want them to tell you?

How you behaved for years is a separate issue to your wife's affair. Had she been a strong woman of principle, she would have divorced you first, then started seeing other men.

If your wife leaves the OM and recommits to your marriage, eventually you are going to have to deal with your own bad behavior in prior years, but now is not the time.


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## azimuth

Araucaria said:


> How you behaved for years is a separate issue to your wife's affair. *Had she been a strong woman of principle, she would have divorced you first, then started seeing other men.*
> 
> If your wife leaves the OM and recommits to your marriage, eventually you are going to have to deal with your own bad behavior in prior years, but now is not the time.



That's a really good point, it's true and I failed to mention in my post. If she was unhappy and never forgave for the original event in the apartment and the excessive drinking and partying, she should have just divorced instead of starting an affair, definitely you're right.


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## Marc878

Cartman35 said:


> ​
> Yes, I do know how to reach OM's wife. Not sure exactly where you are going with this (but I would like your input), but I have considered disclosing. Ultimately, I don't know that tearing apart his family out of my own hurt/anger is justified.


Other man has already blown up his wife and family. She may or may not know who or what he is. You didn't caused him to cheat on his wife. 

If you were her wouldn't you want to know?


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## Rob_1

Man, what is it with lawyers. So many of them in this type of forums, showing their inability to deal with their own life confidently, with alpha strength like they are supposed to do professionally in court.

OP your wife's check-out. She wants space? I would had immediately given her her space as a STBXW. No buts about it. 
I wouldn't care how much it hurts inside, my reaction would have been strong and confident in telling she's free till he'll freezes over period.

This time out us for her to test drive the other guy.


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## Lostinthought61

Cartman35 said:


> ​
> Yes, I do know how to reach OM's wife. Not sure exactly where you are going with this (but I would like your input), but I have considered disclosing. Ultimately, I don't know that tearing apart his family out of my own hurt/anger is justified.


SERIOUSLY!!!!!! you would rather he keep in contact with your wife and keep his wife quiet from his transgression...have you lost your mind?
If nothing else you need to inform her because 
a. she needs to to make her own decision about her relationship, you are preventing her from doing so
b. if he is worried about what is going on in his own house he will be less likely to be dealing with your wife. 
c. this actually may help your wife get out of her fog. 

Cat you need to wake up and smell the coffee because it is burning.


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## BluesPower

Rob_1 said:


> Man, what is it with lawyers. So many of them in this type of forums, showing their inability to deal with their own life confidently, with alpha strength like they are supposed to do professionally in court.
> 
> OP your wife's check-out. She wants space? I would had immediately given her her space as a STBXW. No buts about it.
> I wouldn't care how much it hurts inside, my reaction would have been strong and confident in telling she's free till he'll freezes over period.
> 
> This time out us for her to test drive the other guy.


Sorry folks but bless their hearts, Lawyers and MD's are some of the biggest pussies in the world, no doubt about it. It is play acting for most lawyers in court. I have never seen a group of people in any one (or two) profession(s) more dysfunctional in my life. 

I hope this guy will wake up, he is in for such a world of pain if he does not...


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## Rob_1

@BluesPower said: "I hope this guy will wake up, he is in for such a world of pain if he does not..."

Blues, OP probably will not, but normally, what we see here is this type of OP disappearing after being told the plain truth, because they are unable to deal with the reality of their situation and feel so embarrassed and paralyzed with indecisions. With the fear that they are about to lose what they have, that they can not longer read another post, and most likely do little at home other than to try to ride the situation day by day as it goes, but ultimately, we all know how it ends, sooner or later. 

All of this at the expense of their self respect, their psychological well being, and their manhood.


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## skerzoid

*Cartman35:*

Yes, you were an mentally abusive husband. You have probably damaged your marriage beyond repair even though you are now remorseful. She is returning the favor now. So what to do? I would say that you should now move decisively towards divorce.

1. *Divorce takes a while.* Watch how she reacts. It can be stopped at anytime if she moves towards wanting to reconcile. If not, at least you are on the road to a new life as quickly as possible.

2. *Have yourself tested for STDs.* Suggest that she do so also. She is not only sleeping with him but anyone he has ever slept with.

3. *IC for you but no MC.* If she is not remorseful, MC is costly waste of time and money.

4. *180 technique now.* For you. Begin to detach.

5. *No sex with her.* She may try to manipulate you with this.

6. *Separate finances.* Do not finance her affair.

7. *Expose to anyone who is of interest.* Especially the OMS. Not for revenge. For OMS's well being. For your family's well being. For your well being. _Don't expose at work as she will need the income and you need her to work to reduce alimony._

8. *Act with courage, strength, & decisiveness.* This will be essential no matter the outcome. It is part of your self-development. You are making a new you. _She must see this whether it changes the outcome or not._ Vow that you will become the MAN you need to be in your life.


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## oldshirt

Cartman35 said:


> While the pressure was already building at home, it came to a head based on one major event. I was out late one night with my law school counterparts. After the bar, me and a couple other individuals (both female) went to the apartment of another classmate. A few hours later, I went home. LET ME BE VERY CLEAR HERE......I DID NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR. THERE WAS NO CHEATING.....PERIOD. The next morning when my wife asked where I was the previous night, I lied and said that I was picking some items up from my office for a presentation the next day. I did not want her to question why I was in someone else's apartment at 2am on a weekday. Long story short, she had tracked my movements via my cell phone and knew that I was lying.
> 
> My wife was sure that I was cheating (which I wasn't), but the discussion became heated and I started venting as to the status of our relationship (stupid, I know). As previously mentioned, I was not in a good state of mind due to everything going on at school/work/etc. I complained about her attitude towards met....I complained about how frustrated I was that "fitness" was not part of her life.....I complained about our sex life.
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of days ago I was blindsided when I opened a laptop and her imessage account was open. Essentially, she was having a "sexually natured" conversation (text) with a male co-worker. I confronted her on it, which she quickly admitted to. She was regretful. While I don't think that their relationship has progressed beyond the messages, I really have no way of knowing.
> 
> 
> 
> While regretful, she said that she feels she did it because it felt good for her to get the attention I was not giving her at home. She went on to explain how she still doesn't believe I didn't have an affair, and how my comments on ways she could "improve" (weightloss, sex, etc) damaged her emotionally.
> 
> 
> 
> My initial reaction was that I was willing to work through the "affair" (again, I do not know the extent). I love her and do not want to throw 17 years out the window. When I said this to her, however, my wife said that she was not willing to jump back in that quickly. She said she needed to take some time to evaluate the situation and what she wants in life. She said that she has not been happy with our relationship for a long time, and although she tried not to, she still resents me for the incident I described above.
> 
> She has asked for her "space" to collect her thoughts.


A few points on the above -

Assuming that your penis did not technically enter another vagina, I am assuming that you wanted to and hoping it would happen. …...in other words = "intent." The fact that it never got to that point is just a technicality. What remains is that you were/are wanting to get down with other women and were dissatisfied with your wife and marriage. Let's at least face that and accept that you weren't an unwitting victim of circumstance here. 

Let's also face and accept that your wife is involved with OM to the point she is seriously considering dissolving your marriage and is wanting time and space to test drive the OM (and perhaps others) to see if he is going to step up to the plate. 

I suspect the only reason she hasn't walked already is because OM is still with his BW and hasn't committed to your wife yet. If he were to do that, she would likely be gone in a day or two. 

Bottom line here is your whole marriage and life as you know it is teetering on the very razor-thin edge here and both of you have your finger on the self-destruct button. 

More to come in my post...…..


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## oldshirt

So what to do about it??????

Well for starters I think you need to sit on the mountain top and really think about where you actually want to go with your life from this point going forward. 

Me thinks you have a bit of an ego problem and that much of this is more about wanting to "win" and don't want anyone else going home with the winner's ribbon than what you really want in your heart. 

Case in point - do you truly want to remain with your wife and marriage as you and she actually are at this point in your lives or do you just not want someone else getting the nookie? Do you really want to have a life going forward with her or do you just not want someone else enjoying her or don't want her enjoying herself with someone else???

This is a legitimate question. Do you really want to be here with her going forward as the people you are now at this point in your lives?

You were teenagers that got knocked up. You both pushed through the struggles of tribulations of teen parents growing up with a child and both worked through serious educational and career growth and development. 

Yes, you made it through and did very well for yourselves. 

But now you are very different people. you have very different lives than when you hooked up as teens and you each can have very different lives going forward. 

You do have a child together but she is almost an adult and is at the point in her life now when you and your W got together and became parents. 

Will she be upset and somewhat inconvenienced if you two divorce? Yeah, somewhat. Will she be harmed in any way? No. 

You two are well paid professionals and I assume you are each loving and involved and supportive parents, so other than her having to deal with two holiday dinners over the holidays, she really won't be harmed or impacted all that much in reality. It's not like she is a young child that is going to be plunged into poverty or be abandoned or neglected or anything. She can survive going to one your houses for Thanksgiving dinner on Thanksgiving and then to other's on Christmas. 

My point here is there is no real shame or harm if you and your wife decide that you have had a good run and raised a child to adulthood and now you each want to hit the "Reset" button of each of your lives and move on to the next stages of your lives as individuals. 

I am guessing you are each mid-30s which means you will probably have about 50 years left in this world. Are you wanting to continue those 50 years together or is this a reasonable transition point for each of you? 


Cont...…..


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## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> I am guessing you are each mid-30s which means you will probably have about 50 years left in this world. Are you wanting to continue those 50 years together or is this a reasonable transition point for each of you?
> 
> 
> Cont...…..


Now if the answer to that question is an honest and sincere 'yes' then I agree with the other posters that you are going to have to grow some balls and take some serious actions and risk stepping on toes and upsetting people and rocking the boat. 

You are not going to be able to slime your way out of this and nor are you going to be able to "talk" your way out of this and make a closing argument that is going to captivate everyone and make everyone fall in line with what you want them to do. 

If you are going to keep your wife out of another's bed you are going to have to blow up the affair without warning or discussion by drawing a hard line in the sand on boundaries with your wife, disclosing the A to OM's wife, and giving OM a clear admonition to cease and desist any and all contact with your W. 

Then you are going to have to lay down clear and unambiguous expectations of your marriage and boundaries going forward. 

She will either agree to it and you can both work on rebuilding and reconciling. 

Or she won't in which case, you then decide on whether you can live with her terms or not. 

Either way, you are going to have to have balls. It will take balls to save this marriage. And it will take balls to admit it's not working for either of you and to dissolve the marriage. 

Your not going to be able to talk or argue or bully your way out of this either way. It will take making hard decisions and then taking decisive and difficult actions.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

skerzoid said:


> *Cartman35:*
> 
> Yes, you were an mentally abusive husband. You have probably damaged your marriage beyond repair even though you are now remorseful. She is returning the favor now. So what to do? I would say that you should now move decisively towards divorce.
> 
> 1. *Divorce takes a while.* Watch how she reacts. It can be stopped at anytime if she moves towards wanting to reconcile. If not, at least you are on the road to a new life as quickly as possible.
> 
> 2. *Have yourself tested for STDs.* Suggest that she do so also. She is not only sleeping with him but anyone he has ever slept with.
> 
> 3. *IC for you but no MC.* If she is not remorseful, MC is costly waste of time and money.
> 
> 4. *180 technique now.* For you. Begin to detach.
> 
> 5. *No sex with her.* She may try to manipulate you with this.
> 
> 6. *Separate finances.* Do not finance her affair.
> 
> 7. *Expose to anyone who is of interest.* Especially the OMS. Not for revenge. For OMS's well being. For your family's well being. For your well being. _Don't expose at work as she will need the income and you need her to work to reduce alimony._
> 
> 8. *Act with courage, strength, & decisiveness.* This will be essential no matter the outcome. It is part of your self-development. You are making a new you. _She must see this whether it changes the outcome or not._ Vow that you will become the MAN you need to be in your life.


Cartman, 

This is some extremely solid advice. I have been there , done that with my FWW. Exposure is crucial to killing affair. The advice I was given on this site three years ago “ In order to save your marriage, you need to be willing to lose it.” Counter intuitive, but it worked for me . I went scorched earth on my FWW. She did not know what hit her.

You must remember one thing...WOMEN RESPECT STRENGTH, NOT WEAKNESS. Commit that to memory. I am using deductive logic assuming reconciliation is your goal. If it is you have to go all in and blow the ****ing affair out of the water. Expose to his wife, your family, your close friends. I went on Facebook, changed my status from married, to single, announced my FWWs affair and named her AP, burned our marital bed which was a family heirloom which I videoed and sent to her, went out of state for six weeks, and let her twist in the wind. However, I never denigrated my wife I just checked out due to PTSD from my combat experience. You sir, apparently need to work on yourself,too. As you have been advised, consider IC. You definitely from what you post have some anger issues. 

File for divorce and have her served publicly. This is for works like a charm. As Skerzoid said, you can always stop it.

I am going to add some other advice. You know she has been bumping fuzz withPOSOM. That is glaringly apparent front you posts..Kick her out of the marital bed. Speak only when she speaks to you and keep it short and concise. 

Now whether you stay married or not, a word of advice is be kind and considerate with the fairer sex. Being verbally and abusive in another relationship will get you where you are now. Be honest, and never put yourself in a situation that could call your fidelity into question. 

Good luck and I sincerely hope the two of you can work it out.


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