# Thoughts about EA's



## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

Hello,

From Reading on this and other sites I have become a bit confliced/confused about EA's.

I very seldom find people talking about a same sex EA. Why is that? The thing is that a lot (most) of posters doesn't Think there have to be any talk of sex or such for it to be an EA. As long as the WS gives something emotional that should be reserved for the BS that is enought. By this defenition basically all friendships should be clöassified as an EA. Specially all those to the best friends.

I also fail to see why you wouldn't add hobbies or sports into this as well if they consume a lot of time and emotion from your partner.

What is an EA? A PA is easy to define and an EA that involves sexting or "I love you" kind of talk is also easy to define. But to me there is a huge grey area in EA's and I find it hard to figure that out since most seems to have their own definition of it?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TOMTEFAR said:


> Hello,
> 
> From Reading on this and other sites I have become a bit confliced/confused about EA's.
> 
> ...


To my own cost I know how easily an EA cab turn PA
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

TOMTEFAR said:


> Hello,
> 
> From Reading on this and other sites I have become a bit confliced/confused about EA's.
> 
> ...


My wife's best girlfriend was her "work wife" and that is what they called one another. After a while they both formed distance emotionally in their marriages, but neither was coming home to the H to tell him of their displeasure. I discovered that this was going on through her texts (I thought it must be OM) it was not. In fact I attacked the situation, made it clear to both of them what was going on. Told them both it was to stop immediately. I pointed out the lack of maturity it displayed and showed them that if either of them expected to be married 
for much longer than I suggest highly they start investing more into their marriages then one another.
Her friend has left her H, went through a period where she tried to pull my wife further into her life more GNO etc.. Instead my wife went to therapy, read about boundaries, and our marriage is stronger.
yes I do believe more so for woman, there is the ease of them to give the emotional stuff to another woman, after all "they understand". I also have learned that woman do not "understand" they just are less likely to tell one another they are being ridiculous.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

An EA with a toxic friend is like playing with a bottle of nitroglycerin. It's gonna blow up one day and it will cause lots of destruction and pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

There has to be a balance. Spouses may not feel as immediately threatened by a same sex friend or a hobby or sport. But, in the end they can do damage if too much attention is given and the spouse resents it. After all if it is such a big part of your life and you aren't sharing it. It doesn't leave much.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I tend to lump "EA's" that don't have a romantic component under the headings of emotional unavailability and neglect rather than affair. A spouse's devotion to anything that is consuming time, emotional energy, loyalty, etc. that should be going into their marriage is hugely damaging. Whether it's because they're an addict, workaholic, too wrapped up in their hobby, too devoted to friends or family of origin, or having an EA or PA.

But, at least in my personal view, being a neglectful and emotionally unavailable ass isn't an affair unless there is some romantic component to the relationship.


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## CaptainLOTO (Nov 6, 2013)

I've thought the same. A same sex friend or outside interest that gets so much time & emotional investment that it damages the relationship isn't called an EA usually but it has very similar consequences in terms of hurting the spouse. 

A lot of people essentially "check out" or escape from their marriages by investing too much into their work. 

Everyone needs things outside of their marriage they want to pursue - work, hobbies, friends etc. But there can be a point where it is just too much. Emotionally mature couples can spot this, communicate about it and make adjustments. Those who just rug sweep are in for difficulties.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

That's a tough one because we need close ties to people of the same sex. As long as they are similarly aligned in terms of lifestyle and values, I think it'd be a good thing.

You run the risk of a bad mix, though, like a married guy hanging around a single guy all the time, or a wife and mother whose best friend is a bitter divorcee. When lifestyles are not well synced, there could be a lot of problems.

I'd call an inappropriately close friendship with someone of the same sex (assuming one or both don't actually have sexual interest or curiosity), in which the primary marital relationships starts to take a back seat, a Toxic Friendship and just as dangerous as an EA.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

For same sex relationships, sports and hobbies also; they aren't taking place in "secret" . They may at times make your spouse feel neglected and that should always be addressed. But I have never "snuck off" in the middle of the night to call a friend or ever felt the need to lie about spending time together. The lying really gets me. Dishonesty erodes the fabric of a relationship, making it weak and ultimately worthless.

It is a balance. If you aren't getting any "outside" freedom to grow as a person then you start stagnating. In order for a relationship to be healthy both people need to grow and mature and ideally it feeds the relationship. If something is out of whack or balance it is only a matter of time before the other starts feeling it.


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

Rowan said:


> I tend to lump "EA's" that don't have a romantic component under the headings of emotional unavailability and neglect rather than affair. A spouse's devotion to anything that is consuming time, emotional energy, loyalty, etc. that should be going into their marriage is hugely damaging. Whether it's because they're an addict, workaholic, too wrapped up in their hobby, too devoted to friends or family of origin, or having an EA or PA.
> 
> But, at least in my personal view, being a neglectful and emotionally unavailable ass isn't an affair unless there is some romantic component to the relationship.


I realy like this. We should start using EU's (Emotional Unavailability)


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

Considering how commonly accepted concept of an EA is here, I'm surprised that nobody has provided a crisp explanation of what it is and why it's different from other emotional unavailabilities.

Someone said that it can lead to a PA. I don't think that's the point here. Supporters of the EA concept would not like it described like this because they see it as a separate betrayal that while often linked to a PA is not usually described as 'just' a progression point to a PA.

Someone else said that the difference is that people lie about and try to hid EAs. While certainly sometimes true, I don't think this is a very strong point of differentiation with other forms of emotional unavailability. Often people do not hide EAs. In fact, a common red flag is when a spouse starts talking about someone else a lot - either directly or by repeatedly talking about some aspect or interest of the other person. Also, people DO commonly lie about and hide their hobbies (e.g. money spent on or time pursuing the hobby) and time spent with same sex friends. And exactly like an 'EA', they tend to be open about it until challenged about it. Once you get into a couple of fights about golf or whatever, it tends to start getting a lower profile and even hidden from the spouse. Or with an 'EA', a partner will often talk about the person more (as in the red flag described above) until challenged by the spouse - "So who's this new guy you keep talking about?"

I'm not doubting that the concept of an EA exists - we can kind of know it when we see it. I think we also all know the danger of it to a marriage. However, like the OP, I have difficulty with it as a relationship concept and how it's used here and elsewhere. With a PA, you 'commit' the betrayal act. An EA is more of a behavior pattern that exists to a greater or lesser extent at a given point in time. As the OP says, there are many emotional 'distractions' in life and at some points in a relationship, you are more committed than others.

-Is being attracted to a friend an EA if there are no signs of reciprocation?
-If you both just 'feel it' and you mutually know that you 'feel it' is this an EA even if feelings are never discussed?
-If you are growing closer to someone else and feel like it could be dangerous, is this an EA and at what point is it a betrayal and when have you 'crossed the line'?


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> For same sex relationships, sports and hobbies also; they aren't taking place in "secret" . They may at times make your spouse feel neglected and that should always be addressed. But I have never "snuck off" in the middle of the night to call a friend or ever felt the need to lie about spending time together. The lying really gets me. Dishonesty erodes the fabric of a relationship, making it weak and ultimately worthless.
> 
> It is a balance. If you aren't getting any "outside" freedom to grow as a person then you start stagnating. In order for a relationship to be healthy both people need to grow and mature and ideally it feeds the relationship. If something is out of whack or balance it is only a matter of time before the other starts feeling it.


You could talk to your BF and be open about it and it still being an EA though. How many doesn't lie by obmitting? No need to sneek out in the middle of the night or such...


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

couple said:


> Considering how commonly accepted concept of an EA is here, I'm surprised that nobody has provided a crisp explanation of what it is and why it's different from other emotional unavailabilities.
> 
> Someone said that it can lead to a PA. I don't think that's the point here. Supporters of the EA concept would not like it described like this because they see it as a separate betrayal that while often linked to a PA is not usually described as 'just' a progression point to a PA.
> 
> ...


Exactly my thoughts about it but in a niced wording and format =) Thanks.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

couple said:


> .....
> -Is being attracted to a friend an EA if there are no signs of reciprocation?
> -If you both just 'feel it' and you mutually know that you 'feel it' is this an EA even if feelings are never discussed?
> -If you are growing closer to someone else and feel like it could be dangerous, is this an EA and at what point is it a betrayal and when have you 'crossed the line'?


Is there such a thing "no sign of reciprocation" ? I don't think so

"you mutually know that you "feel" it " ?

Feel what? Feel what exactly? 

What is it you feel and whatever it is you could not be feeling something unless there is a connection you have made behaviorally even in the smallest of ways so you don't 'just feel' something that dropped from the sky and you both unspeakingly know nothing about it 

For two people to feel some connection unspeakingly is not really possible imo

_______

For what it's worth EA is far more damaging than a PA it completely undermines a relationship from top to bottom 

The following could be harmless if you had no physical attraction and it was a genuine friend but if even in the smallest way you are attracted to them outside of that :

The moment you share something with a third party you would be embarrassed to share with your wife / husband you are on the slippery slope 
The moment that involves no work talk but personal talk the ground just got icier 
The moment either one of you criticized your SO to the third party the icy slope went down a few degrees
Now you are sharing your hopes and dreams with the third party and you see them alongside you - not your husband or wife

the texting emailing goes through the roof 

now the accidental touching starts

None of that and it rarely moves forward

All of that and a PA is around the corner and at the next corner 

the abyss awaits


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I used to feel as if the "concept" of EA's were complete BS, I've said that here before always followed by a big old BUT: I changed my mind when my Husband was involved in what both of us acknowledge was an EA.

It became an EA that crossed the line in my book when they actually spoke about my not knowing at all about their contact. Yet they continued on with it. She never called or texted when she knew he'd be at home or with me. She was aware she was a secret and agreed. She talked to him about things he could/should think about to make his own life more free and fun (not our marriage). She was filled with fun talk and a soft shoulder. 

I would tell him I needed help taking the dog to the Vet, or something equally boring but necessary. He didn't talk to me about much at all during that time.

When I started feeling that something was driving his distance, dissatisfaction and disinterest in our marriage. It took me a bit but all I had to do was look at our cell phone bill. He was giving her hours of his time (we are talking about a busy man, high level exec.). When he was asked if he was talking to someone he lied. Never mentioned her.

When I finally had enough to confront him I felt as if it was getting close to physical. Probably would have gone there had she not lived so far away. She hadn't spoken the attraction neither did he but it existed. I am sure they both felt it. 

If he chose to continue his "friendship" I would have filed for divorce. It was also telling that when I exposed her to her fiancé he broke up with her and moved out.

So there was underlying interest and the unspoken hope on her behalf at least that they'd be together. After she helped him figure out what he really needed was her. I'm assuming that was her motivation. From their conversations. Everything my husband offered her fiancé came up short. 

I'm still not past it. I have a hard time with the idea of being lied to by anyone close to me.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> It became an EA that crossed the line in my book when they actually spoke about my not knowing at all about their contact. Yet they continued on with it. .......
> 
> I'm still not past it. I have a hard time with the idea of being lied to by anyone close to me.


The two EA PA are so different aren't they?

Why people have a PA as the deal breaker is so obvious - to share that sanctity with somebody else, your temple, your body, the place that only you as spouse are allowed to go.

But it is what it is - it's short - a short mingling of flesh of body of fluid and then as good, as ecstatic as it can be - it's gone - it's over. 

It is is'nt it - it IS done, it's fullfilling in a very 'short' sense of the word.

As opposed to the 'emotional' which is in your head, which is not short, which never goes, they share their soul in their minds. When you feel 'close' to somebody close it does not switch off - it stays there

It does make you analyse the oft quoted defence from a wayward - "It was only sex, nothing more" they shout - meaning it had no emotional connection, so even in the mind of the cheat the emotional connection of sex is a huge deal! They seem to separate the two with little difficulty! 

To share your aspirations, your dreams, your fears, your 'real' world, your soul is for me much more of a bigger deal than taking his **** inside you. That's a big deal sure but for me now I understand the power of people in a more fundamental way the EA is everything.

It is what I would fear most in any relationship I ever have again


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Headspin said:


> The two EA PA are so different aren't they?
> 
> Why people have a PA as the deal breaker is so obvious - to share that sanctity with somebody else, your temple, your body, the place that only you as spouse are allowed to go.
> 
> ...


You put it so perfectly I'm a bit weepy here. 

I've screamed at him "why didn't you just f her like any other guy". It would have been easier to wrap my head around .

I manage musicians so I'm no stranger to all manner of cheating and justification for it. I've had to be civil to "road girlfriends" while dealing with wives. 

I'm also an extrovert so me "sharing" how I feel with my close friends isn't uncommon. My husband was always much more private, and used to only talk to me about those things. So it really adds to the pain.

It was winding down as I was patient with his midlife meltdown, he returned to his senses and now thinks we are stronger than ever. I tell him I am strong but now feel myself brittle. You don't know which tap will send me into a million sharp fragments. 

I never thought I'd consider leaving over something like this. But here we are.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

Also, much of an EA is about what is happening in your head. Yes there are words, actions and behaviors but for it to be a real EA, there must be a state of mind. You can't see or hear a state of mind, nor can you really define it very well.

I don't remember anyone saying that you must 'fall in love' to be guilty of committing the transgression of an EA. Obviously 'love' is hard to define so that would also be problematic but at least people can relate to what love is. They are used to looking in themselves and asking whether they are in love with someone or not. So if love is not a requirement for something to be an EA, then what do you need? Infatuation? Attraction? (and are we talking about sexual attraction?) Desire? Do you have to have sexual fantasies about them? (can anything happening in your head be considered 'cheating'?)

I strongly disagree that sharing things that you wouldn't or haven't shared with your spouse is a good definition of 'the line' which if crossed means you had an EA and therefore you cheated. Women commonly will share important things with their female friends that they don't and wouldn't share with their husbands. Same with male friends. 

If a woman become smitten with a male coworker (for example) but she resists the temptation to have a PA, has she still cheated for the reason that this was an EA? It's a rhetorical question...of course it depends on a million things that you can't see, touch or hear.

I think it only crosses the cheating line if/when it goes physical. If there is attraction and 'too much emotional closeness' without a physical affair, this can be very dangerous in leading to a PA and, in itself, even if it doesn't lead to a PA, it is corrosive for a relationship but i would not call it cheating. It's a problem in a marriage but it's a different problem from cheating and we should treat it differently. For example, if a married woman falls in love with another man but she does not take it physical while still married, then the woman did not cheat. it sucks, it's sad and it's horrible for their partner but the woman did not cheat. Not legally and not morally. She might feel guilty for hurting her husband but she did not cheat. People are confusing the hurt caused by an 'EA' with cheating. Of course having your spouse develop feelings for someone else hurts like hell and in many people it hurts as much or even more than a PA but it doesn't mean that the partner cheated.

People fall in an out of love and people who are in love with one person sometimes fall in love with another person and people have since the beginning of time. Falling out of love can cause great hurt but to me, considering the above, the term EA seems to have been invented as a way to assign blame to someone for having feelings of love for another person.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I have never termed it "cheating". I have called it a betrayal.

He lied to sneak off and call her...he lied about her very existence...he was treating me like our formerly picture perfect life might not be the picture he wanted though he helped paint it...all while she was there and I knew the picture he was now considering would include her...

So "cheating" maybe not. The pain is there. I don't know if I am up for dealing with my new "reality". I've always been someone who is honest. So there truly is nothing I have shared with another that I wouldn't tell my husband if he asked. I would never look him in the eye and repeatedly lie. Ugh, not a good day I suppose.still too fresh for me to not feel like running from the pain.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

This is such an interesting thread. I too have often wondered about the defining lines and boundaries of EAs.

A thought about the sharing of the soul thing. Not all waywards share their entire beings/minds/hearts/souls with their APs. I have never been fully present in any relationship my entire life until trying to R with my partner - that was way too threatening to me. So my APs never got to share my soul, either. I wouldn't let anyone get close enough. Though before becoming fully present and connected with my partner, I would say that I still shared the most of my soul with her, regardless of the EAs. I showed her an awful lot of my real self, my real thoughts and feelings, which while I had always longed to be able to do so with someone, was a big no-no in my world. Even _during_ the EAs, I was very communicative and shared a lot with her. She was the first one to realize that they WERE EAs and were NOT good. She is the only person I have ever felt comfortable and "ok" with to any degree. I broke a lot of my self-protection rules for her. I guess I knew on some level that I could really be intimate with her if those defenses and wedges between us were gone, which was quite terrifying. But at the same time, I wanted that. I just didn't know how to do it until now.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> This is such an interesting thread. I too have often wondered about the defining lines and boundaries of EAs.
> 
> A thought about the sharing of the soul thing. Not all waywards share their entire beings/minds/hearts/souls with their APs. I have never been fully present in any relationship my entire life until trying to R with my partner - that was way too threatening to me. So my APs never got to share my soul, either. I wouldn't let anyone get close enough. Though before becoming fully present and connected with my partner, I would say that I still shared the most of my soul with her, regardless of the EAs. I showed her an awful lot of my real self, my real thoughts and feelings, which while I had always longed to be able to do so with someone, was a big no-no in my world. Even _during_ the EAs, I was very communicative and shared a lot with her. She was the first one to realize that they WERE EAs and were NOT good. She is the only person I have ever felt comfortable and "ok" with to any degree. I broke a lot of my self-protection rules for her. I guess I knew on some level that I could really be intimate with her if those defenses and wedges between us were gone, which was quite terrifying. But at the same time, I wanted that. I just didn't know how to do it until now.



There re parts of your thread that seem like they could have been written by my husband. So here he is never more open and present. Having chosen me. 

After all these years of beating myself bloody against emotional walls I swore were too thick to ever fall...He takes them down. And as I push expecting the same futile feeling, I fall into the pile of rubble and wonder where to begin.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

couple said:


> I don't remember anyone saying that you must 'fall in love' to be guilty of committing the transgression of an EA. Obviously 'love' is hard to define so that would also be problematic but at least people can relate to what love is. They are used to looking in themselves and asking whether they are in love with someone or not. So if love is not a requirement for something to be an EA, then what do you need? Infatuation? Attraction? (and are we talking about sexual attraction?) Desire? Do you have to have sexual fantasies about them? (can anything happening in your head be considered 'cheating'?)


I think it's common that people think so (one must be in love), but I don't think that's always the case. There was one person I had an EA with that I had zero illusions of caring about. It was the quality of the interaction and time-allocation that made it an EA, not whether I cared or not. I talked about abandoning that particular connection multiple times, but my partner encouraged me to keep it active because she felt she couldn't provide any emotional support. (I finally broke it off because the person annoyed and disgusted me so much.) Also, 2 of the 3, I would never have wanted to be physical with, regardless of the circumstances. The remaining one I had already been physical with years before I ever met my partner as she was my ex. 

I think some of the components of an EA are: amount of time and energy allocated, closeness permitted (even if it's due to poorly defended boundaries being crossed), and I think there is usually some level of infatuation/being drawn to a person, for whatever reason (though not always the infatuation - could be accepting things from a person that should only be received from your partner/spouse).

And yes, I think stuff in your head can be cheating, which is why I don't understand it when people say it's okay to fantasize about other people and that that's not cheating.



couple said:


> I strongly disagree that sharing things that you wouldn't or haven't shared with your spouse is a good definition of 'the line' which if crossed means you had an EA and therefore you cheated. Women commonly will share important things with their female friends that they don't and wouldn't share with their husbands. Same with male friends.


And someone can keep sharing with their partner/spouse even while in an EA/inappropriate relationship with another person. Sometimes they are still sharing MORE with the partner/spouse than with the AP.



couple said:


> If a woman become smitten with a male coworker (for example) but she resists the temptation to have a PA, has she still cheated for the reason that this was an EA? It's a rhetorical question...of course it depends on a million things that you can't see, touch or hear.


I'd say yes, she's cheating - an inappropriate emotional connection was formed with someone who wasn't her partner/spouse.



couple said:


> I think it only crosses the cheating line if/when it goes physical. If there is attraction and 'too much emotional closeness' without a physical affair, this can be very dangerous in leading to a PA and, in itself, even if it doesn't lead to a PA, it is corrosive for a relationship but i would not call it cheating.


I disagree. It causes the same kind of damage, and you would still be giving someone else something that should be reserved for your partner. Therefore, cheating.



couple said:


> Falling out of love can cause great hurt but to me, considering the above, the term EA seems to have been invented as a way to assign blame to someone for having feelings of love for another person.


If the person agreed to a monogamous relationship with their partner/spouse, and they allow certain feelings or too close of an interaction with someone else, that is cheating. That is breaking the "agreement"/promise. Even if the person didn't realize at first what was happening, it's their responsibility to be vigilant and self-aware enough to notice when they're feeling too drawn to another person, and to take action to prevent the development of anything more.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> There re parts of your thread that seem like they could have been written by my husband. So here he is never more open and present. Having chosen me.
> 
> After all these years of beating myself bloody against emotional walls I swore were too thick to ever fall...He takes them down. And as I push expecting the same futile feeling, I fall into the pile of rubble and wonder where to begin.


I am sorry to hear that you have had to expend blood and years for so long on trying to break that wall down.  But it's true that it only comes down from the inside. And for those of us who have such defenses, it can take a very long time indeed, and a really big catalyst, to make it happen. It's not that it isn't wanted, it's just that it's hard and scary, and unconscious to a large degree. 

It's unfair, too, but there's not much that can be done about that. Our baggage always affects the people we love and those who love us, always. Everyone is paying for something someone else did, or something that happened before they ever met their partner/spouse. 

He is lucky to have you, and that you are there in the rubble wondering where to begin instead of throwing your hands up and walking away. I hope he knows.

My partner and I have come a long way. A LONG way. Even from the beginning. When she met me, I was a rage-filled wreck, just taking wild swings every time something upset me. I am very different from who I was then. Part of it is working hard for her all these years, even though I failed her in such a huge way, and part of it is her love and presence in my life. Knowing her has changed me for the better.


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

Another thing to ponder.

I Think for everybody, at some Point(s) in their Life, you are gonna feel something for someone else other than your partner. We are al humans and our relasionships isn't Always good. There are dipps in all marriages. So what if you feel something for your partners friend or family member. It's not like you can drop that person? You might not make Contact yourself but meet that person fairly often and you need to be friendly. So even if this feeling you have is not shared would this still be an EA?

Also I tell things to my friends/family that I don't tell my wife. This doesn't mean I have an EA with any of them. I know my wife talks with her friends and family about stuff that she doesn't tell me aswell. This I Think is normal. Sometimes you need a different set of Eyes, specially if it involves your partner.

I'm still at a loss, for some situations it is easy to define an EA.

1) You talk about your love for each other and such.
2) Plan your future together
3) Get your emotional needs met by your AP instead of your BS
4) etc...

But there is such a large grey area.....


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

Headspin said:


> The two EA PA are so different aren't they?
> 
> Why people have a PA as the deal breaker is so obvious - to share that sanctity with somebody else, your temple, your body, the place that only you as spouse are allowed to go.
> 
> ...



Not arguing that a PA is not a dealbreaker but I realy like your reasoning about the EA stuff. Best description of the problems around it I have read.

Would it matter if the AP and WS had never met, seen each other or Heard their voices. In other Words only had chats or email conttact with no picturs sent?


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

couple said:


> Also, much of an EA is about what is happening in your head. Yes there are words, actions and behaviors but for it to be a real EA, there must be a state of mind. You can't see or hear a state of mind, nor can you really define it very well.
> 
> I don't remember anyone saying that you must 'fall in love' to be guilty of committing the transgression of an EA. Obviously 'love' is hard to define so that would also be problematic but at least people can relate to what love is. They are used to looking in themselves and asking whether they are in love with someone or not. So if love is not a requirement for something to be an EA, then what do you need? Infatuation? Attraction? (and are we talking about sexual attraction?) Desire? Do you have to have sexual fantasies about them? (can anything happening in your head be considered 'cheating'?)
> 
> ...


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

For me, an EA is part of the continuum that starts with inappropriate relationship (IR) and ends with PA. Where an IR ends and an EA begins I am not sure. As I am a woman, I will talk in terms of how it looks from a woman’s POV. I would be interested in reading about an EA when his female partner is engaging in one from a man’s POV.
I look at the different activities. Are these things that you would not want your wife to engage in? For example, accepting free drinks from other men. Are these things something that you are comfortable telling your wife about? For example, not only “Sally and I met up at the pub last night” but also “I paid for dinner and her taxi fare home.”

My husband is in an EA when:
1.	When we are with a group of people and someone is not sure who is married to whom.
2.	My husband accepts behaviour from this woman that he would not accept from me.
3.	HE laughs at her jokes – no matter how many times he has heard them before.
4.	He is oblivious as to how she treats me.
5.	He is “sure” that anything bad that happened between me and his EA was adequately provoked by me.
6.	He feels the need to pay for her because “he doesn't see her that often.”………..
7.	But then he doesn't have any problem asking me to go dutch on a few things with him or just flat out says, “we can’t afford this right now.”
8.	He doesn't have a problem when his EA has reasons as to why I can’t join my husband and his “friend” in whatever they are doing.
9.	Most likely, he will say or just hint around, that I am the problem as to why she doesn't want to invite me.
10.	The heavy contacting –through whatever means – is a sign that they are having an EA. No one these days is non stop contacting one other person without a deep connection. What’s that regular excuse we get, oh yeah, “I just don’t have the time.”
11. Just in general, everything is prioritised for the EA. How he and maybe I spend our time. How money is spent. How he gives out favors, for example, my fiance is a lawyer, it's like pulling teeth to get legal advice out of him. If he ever legal advice to another woman without charging her, I would be furious.

I will add others as I think of them.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

couple said:


> Considering how commonly accepted concept of an EA is here, *I'm surprised that nobody has provided a crisp explanation of what it is and why it's different from other emotional unavailabilities.*
> 
> Someone said that it can lead to a PA. I don't think that's the point here. Supporters of the EA concept would not like it described like this because they see it as a separate betrayal that while often linked to a PA is not usually described as 'just' a progression point to a PA.
> 
> ...


One reason why it is different than other forms of emotional availability is that it involves at least one other person, ergo, another set of feelings, sensibilities and so on.

1. It's easy to get up into the belief that your EA is "just a friend" and therefore, not only has standing to give you advice, but that it is also neccessarily objective advice.

Many people who have been on the receiving end of an EA are aware of the "advice" that an EA can give. in my situation, my fiance's EA asked regularly about our sex life. Questions like, "did she spend the night?" So if he answered no, she assumed we weren't having sex and it was my choice. So she advised him that we weren't having sex enough, ergo, I wasn't that into him and if he dropped me, she would date him again. 

2. It's also easy for an EA to take whatever experience she / he had in the relationship and use that as proof that they were led on. Ergo, your partner has now created a responsibility to another human being...... even while they had a responsibility to you.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I would dearly love to have a clear definition of what constitutes an EA, what constitutes betrayal, but I don't think one exists.

My best friend bedsides my wife is also female, and lives overseas. We communicate electronically. So many of the definitions here of EA apply to our friendship. She is an opposite sex friend. We share intimate details of our personal lives and feelings. We care about each other and we communicate that. And we have met in person.

The way I keep it proper (by my standards) and not an EA:

1. The relationship exists with the full and explicit permission of my wife and her husband. It's a really weird conversation to have, but I discussed with my wife and we agreed terms, and then I asked her husband for permission for the friendship to continue. As much as possible we seek to steer it to a relationship of two couples. 

2. There are no secrets from my wife about it. None. Any time there is a conversation that could concern my wife, I tell her about it. Any deep conversations are via IM or email, so are traceable, and my wife has access to them. My wife has full access to my friend's secrets, but not vice versa. 

3. Anything I do that builds closeness with this friend is brought into my marriage. Exchanging pics, little text messages throuh the day. Sharing dreams. If I can't do it with my wife, it doesn't happen with the friend. So in fact, far from damaging my marriage, the other friendship seems to have brought new ways to grow intimacy with my wife. 

4. My wife and I approach a good friend of hers who shares our morals and views on life, and filled her in on the friendship. Her role is to be a support for my wife and to hold me accountable for doing the right thing. Her help is not always comfortable for me, but has been a great gift.

5. When friend and I meet in person, there are restrictions and there is chaperonage. We are not left alone for any period of time. This is important. First it stops is doing something we would regret, and secondly it stops our spouses worrying and wondering.

So I guess if I had to summarise how I handle things, I make sure my wife comes first, to the point of a clear undertaking that the moment she decides the friendship must end, it ends. Scary, because it means a lot to me, but it cannot be any other way. And I have built lots of layers of "protection" in so that we stay a long way away from anything marriage damaging.

So far what I have found is that making sure my wife knows everything has been key. That changes my attitude, and the friend's, because there is no such thing as a secret just between us. So a lot of the romantic dreams that could damage my marriage don't get to take hold.

I do think it would only take one preserved secret for the friendship to turn toxic. Have to be always vigilant about that. 

And as to why I can't define when it would become an EA....the reason is that my wife owns that decision. If I were to conceal things from my wife, I would say I had crossed the line to EA. And if my wife decides it has become inappropriate, then it has. She has imposed some limits, we are working within them, and so far it is ok.

Hope this helps if others are looking for ideas on how to approach this.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

When I committed myself in marriage to my wife, she, and by extension the children I brought into this world through her, became the most important relationship(s) in my life.

Exclusively.

She made the same witnessed commitment to me. I expect her to keep it.

All in all, it's an elegantly simple foundation to build a life of love and friendship upon.

If she were to enter a 'friendship' with someone else that became more important to her than her relationship with me and, again by extension, our children, then it's transgressing that vow of commitment we made to each other.

It's an EA. 

A major crack in the foundation of our life together that, depending on the severity, may not be repairable.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

NextTimeAround said:


> For me, an EA is part of the continuum that starts with inappropriate relationship (IR) and ends with PA. Where an IR ends and an EA begins I am not sure. As I am a woman, I will talk in terms of how it looks from a woman’s POV. I would be interested in reading about an EA when his female partner is engaging in one from a man’s POV.
> I look at the different activities. Are these things that you would not want your wife to engage in? For example, accepting free drinks from other men. Are these things something that you are comfortable telling your wife about? For example, not only “Sally and I met up at the pub last night” but also “I paid for dinner and her taxi fare home.”
> 
> My husband is in an EA when:
> ...


I know that you are only stating your beliefs but an EA is generally not used here as part of a continuum between IR and PA. One can have a PA without an IR and an EA. Also, many here state that an EA can be as serious or more serious a transgression than a PA.

Your list is a list of things that might suggest an EA, particularly if there are multiple of them. But would you propose that a certain number of these checked off and boom, a spouse has crossed the line into cheating/transgression/betrayal? Say yes to 5 of them and bam he's guilty of betrayal? While it might bear out your experience, it's not reliable as a framework to explain what an EA is.

Also, I've heard many people complain of these exact same things related to their spouse's mother, brother or sister.

My quest to hear a good, crisp definition of EA continues. i've consulted wikipedia and the concept is confusing there too. why?

-says an EA must exclude physical intimacy to be an EA.
-defines an EA by virtue of the impact that it has on the marriage rather than a committed act. So the better a person is at living a double life, the less guilty they are at committing an EA infidelity???
-aligned with above, it states that if your marriage is already having problems then having this kind of relationship with others is not an EA.

EA as a concept is a mess. The more i try to understand what it really is, the more confused i get.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

To those of you who are confused about what an EA is, here's hoping you stay that way...because when you are a BS of an EA (or 3), you know it. EA's exist along a continuum just like PA's do. In PA's there can be ONS's all the way to a full blown love/sexual affair with the AP.

My H had three of them spanning a 2 1/2 year period. Some of them overlapped but nevertheless they were all EA's.....easily defined by the MC and admitted to by the H as soon as he heard the definition.

There are plenty of ways to derail a marriage and many of those ways have been mentioned here, yet somehow blended with an EA. There are plenty of ways spouses become emotionally unavailable to each other, and they do not involve an affair partner. Therefore, EA's are not hobbies or sports gone awry. They are relationships and yes, they are "romantic" relationships, yet non-sexual. My H was clearly infatuated with all three women. They were all business associates (on some level) but all of them were out of town, so there was little opportunity for them to evolve into sexual relationships. For two of them, the relationships, on the surface, appeared to be professional friendships, but it was the undertone of the conversations they shared that pointed to something inappropriate. So, if I were to tell you the overriding topic of their discussions, you might say, "what's the problem?".

The problem was the puke-fest of misplaced admiration that went along with the conversations. "golly you are such a great guy"..."your family is really lucky to have you"...."you are like a blooming flower"...."you will be amazing at whatever you do"...."you can tell me to pound sand, but what do you really want to do with your life?"....."its a sunny day here, what's going on out there?"...etc etc. Yep, H exchanged weather reports with one AP...just because he was thinking of her. She was 1200 miles away, and he had no intent of traveling to her city, but if either of them stopped and looked out the window, they just had to email each other if it was raining outside. Needless to say, I suggested that H shortcut weather.com on his desktop if he needed weather reports in the future. Bottom line, it was the affair fog that was skewing his visions of his OW's and his vision of me, just like a PA. They were emotionally intimate.

H made the needs of his AP's more important than my needs, just like most PA's. Those relationships replaced the emotional intimacy in our marriage. He day-dreamed with them. He worked late so he could spend time emailing them, then he got home and literally would not say a word to me. He encouraged them in their careers and said nothing about mine. And like others have mentioned, there was secrecy.

When I discovered the third relationship, I thought it was a "one-convention stand" in Vegas. From the get go, H insisted that he did not have sex with OW. He finally admitted to texting her for a 6 month period after they met, then took a 5 month break, then began texting again. The texts were flirtatious but they did not become sexual. They started out with him texting her every Friday..."Happy Friday"...then the proceeded to text during the day. Problem was, he never wished me a Happy Friday, or the other 6 days of the week. And, I was more pissed when I found out the level of emotional attachment he had to this woman, rather than it being a ONS. Yes, I would have preferred H to have had a ONS than to think that he put her ahead of me for months and months.

To put it simply, he gave away the smiles that were rightfully mine, to other women within the context of an ongoing relationship. To one, he was a KISA. He was NEVER a KISA with me. As to the sexual nature, actually the lack of a sexual relationship, I believe actually fed the narrative of 2 of the 3 relationships. It was way easier to keep these pathetic princesses up on their pedestals if they did not progress to sex. As far as H saw, these women were practically perfect in every way.

So, yeah, to someone who has not experienced it, it may be hard to comprehend. Its way more than just a toxic friend. Think of your wedding vows. What did you promise that day? Did you simply pinky-swear that you were going to have sex with anyone else for the rest of your lives? If that was it, it was a short ceremony and you and the guests could get on with the party afterward. But I suspect that you made all sorts of promises, and MOST of them did not involve sex. In fact, I would venture to say that in your marriages now, (unfortunately) most of your energies are spent on things other than sex. Its all of the above that makes a marriage. So, an EA is forsaking all those other promises you made. Yep, it can happen in a PA too, but it can happen all on is own.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Busy accountant, I like what you wrote.

If your husband had put you first would the other relationships have worried you?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Busy Accountant, did your husband ever want out of the marriage?


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

lostmyreligion said:


> When I committed myself in marriage to my wife, she, and by extension the children I brought into this world through her, became the most important relationship(s) in my life.
> 
> Exclusively.
> 
> ...


So by your defenition it is only an EA if you are number 2? I don't agree. I don't Think you need to be number 2 for it to be an EA.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

Busy Accountant - I have experienced partners 'falling for' or becoming infatuated with someone else during a relationship. I understand how much this hurts. This thread is about the construct of an EA and how to define it. We should be able to have this discussion without confusion that we are saying 'it's no big deal' or that it hurts less than other relationship problems. We are saying none of these things. People make very different wedding vows/promises in the marriage ceremony so it's hard to define an EA in terms of what vows are broken or not broken. Also, using this in the EA definition means you need to be married. Doesn't hold water.

Further problems with the EA concept include:

The formal definitions i've seen do not even require a proper relationship. You only need to be 'infatuated' with someone else and you've committed the act of betrayal/cheating, etc as an 'EA transgression'. This seems to contradict another common definition that requires a rather deep mutual emotional connection with someone else. An infatuation is commonly known as a 'crush'. So is an EA a 'crush' or a deep emotional relationship that two people invest in? Or both?

Another problem is the cause and effect. Since the EA seems to be identified by the impact that it has on a marriage/relationship, it requires that the EA has CAUSED the emotional distraction in the marriage. So if feelings cool in a marriage and the emotional hole is filled by interest in someone else, then this is not an EA by the definition as it has not CAUSED the marital problem. Can we ever really tell or agree what was the cause and what was the effect when something like this happens? One may say that the marriage was happy 'until she came along' and the other might say that there was an emotional vacuum that was filled by this other person. Does it even really matter?

Should we even care? Why do we need a precise definition? Busy Accountant maintains that you just know it if you experience it. Isn't that good enough? While that sounds like a reasonable argument, I would say that using these terms like everyone knows what they mean might provide a handy shortcut to understanding a marital problem but it can also be misleading. Busy Accountant also mentioned that this 'diagnosis' was used in marriage counseling. It's pretty scary if this framework is being used by professionals when it is so poorly defined and not at all cohesive as a construct.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

Having children often causes a diversion of 'emotional energy' from the marriage to the children. Is this an 'EA'? It's certainly a problem in the marriage but i don't think anyone would say it's an EA.

What if when a couple has a child, the wife becomes distant from the husband and gives her emotional energy to the child at the expense of the husband. The husband becomes interested in another woman but never does anything physical. I would say this is very common. We'd say that he's committing an EA transgression/betrayal/cheating but not her. While this seems to make sense on the surface, it doesn't seem like a good way to properly diagnose a marital problem. It's misleading to where the problems lie.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

*One can have a PA without an IR and an EA. Also, many here state that an EA can be as serious or more serious a transgression than a PA.* 

I think a PA is a very inappropriate relationship. You don't? When I said continuum, I mean by comparison. Not that all PAs start off as IRs and then progress on to EAs.....

*Your list is a list of things that might suggest an EA, particularly if there are multiple of them. But would you propose that a certain number of these checked off and boom, a spouse has crossed the line into cheating/transgression/betrayal? Say yes to 5 of them and bam he's guilty of betrayal? While it might bear out your experience, it's not reliable as a framework to explain what an EA is.*

No I would not. This is left up to the individual circumstance. To someone else (not me), one of those points may be more important than the others. Relationships in general are not linear. So guaging an EA would not be either.

*Also, I've heard many people complain of these exact same things related to their spouse's mother, brother or sister.*

So you've heard complaint...... Casual conversation can be interesting but not always a good basis for establishing important concepts. 

My father would say wildly exaggerated things, too. If the topic were important, I would ask follow up questions. There was woman we knew who went on sabbatical for a year and therefore wrote a rental contract against her house. For whatever reason, she returned to her home town early. my father said, she is having all sorts of problems trying to get her renter out of her house, as if the renter were squatting. I had to remind my father that if this woman got the renter to agree to stay in her house for a year, then the renter is merely following the contract obligations.

So what were you saying, oh, yes, you've heard of the usual spouse / in-law conflicts that have been going on for centuries and want to compare those conflicts with an EA. First of all, I hope that no one assumes that my husband is dating or is married to his mother when we are out. But in any case, where one generally expects to work with in-laws for mutually agreed outcomes, EAs generally feel as if they are above that. they don't need to negotiate with the spouse. 

And also, I would hope, that we are reasonably confident that doting relationships with one's family does not lead to a PA. But, who am I to know about that one billion case when it did happen. 

In any case, one big mistake is to try make comparisons with all types of relationships. It is not down to the letter possible. I used to think that OSFs were completely interchangeable with same sex friendships. but they are not. why they are not requires another thread. But it has been discussed here at TAM before. Use the keyword "OSF" to search for those threads. 

*My quest to hear a good, crisp definition of EA continues. i've consulted wikipedia and the concept is confusing there too. why?*

I guess you could say the concept of EA is still in formulation. There was a time when humans had no idea of oxygen.

*-says an EA must exclude physical intimacy to be an EA.
-defines an EA by virtue of the impact that it has on the marriage rather than a committed act. So the better a person is at living a double life, the less guilty they are at committing an EA infidelity???
-aligned with above, it states that if your marriage is already having problems then having this kind of relationship with others is not an EA.*

Well, those are indeed someone else's opinion. Relationships in general are dynamic. Yesterday's acquaintances are today's best buddies. Yesterday's dating situation is today's "till death do us part" relationship. And so are EAs. Even if an EA never gets to a PA, it can change in intensity and therefore, to the greater disadvantage of the non cheating spouse. This is why I would like to know about an EA as soon as possible...... or better still, that start of an inappropriate relationship.

As a woman, and particularly when I was a young woman, I used to think that a woman who appeared overly protective of her spouse was insecure. These days after having been burnt a few times, I think they are just smart.

And I also think that many of these women are flirtatious with other husbands are one these smart women when it comes to dealing with her husband.

*EA as a concept is a mess. The more i try to understand what it really is, the more confused i get.*

that might be because you want to compare this type of relationship with any another -- point for point. You will not be able to. But when you are hit with something that you just don't know, your way of thinking will become just a little bit more flexible..... and then you may well be able to understand.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

TOMTEFAR said:


> So by your defenition it is only an EA if you are number 2? I don't agree. I don't Think you need to be number 2 for it to be an EA.


Oh dear, I just have to address this.

There is no comparison between the wife and some just a friend woman out there who buzzes in for a drink or a free meal, says a few compliments and then leaves until the next time.

If you want to compare the relationship that your wife has, that is,

1. the mother of your children
2. the one with whom you share finances, holidays, family relationships with
3. Hell, the two of you share a home together......

to someone who texts you 50 or more times a week, then you are the one with the problem.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I can only imagine that a couple people here are considering EAs and looking for justification.

In that case, the best thing to do is to look for message boards where there are a lot of female posters who brag about having male friends.

Those would be the people who will help you poo-poo the idea that EA is a real concept and problem in relationships.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

My H had never heard the term EA when I proposed to him that was what he was doing with another woman (a former lover). Yet he immediately said--as if with relief--"Yes, that's what it is." And from there we both knew what had to happen. He cut her off. 

Which he had been unwilling to do until then.

The label switched on a light for him; he saw that was what he was doing. The name said it all. It fit.

And in that moment I understood my sense of hysteria and panic that had been so hard to communicate to him.

Thus I agree that a goodly portion of the "diagnosis" of an EA will always be "you just know." It's a truly icky feeling, too. You do feel betrayed in that sick way; your special place in your spouse's mind and heart has been usurped.

The other symptom, in our case, was that if she had needs or requests for his company or assistance, the answer was always "Yes," even if I was not told or if it would inconvenience me: She somehow had priority ("I knew her before I knew you"). I was the third wheel. 

All of that vanished the day we called it by its name: EA. He was having an affair--he, the world's most monogamous H.

Shocked him, but, as I say, at least he knew what to do.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

questar1 said:


> My H had never heard the term EA when I proposed to him that was what he was doing with another woman (a former lover). Yet he immediately said--as if with relief--"Yes, that's what it is." And from there we both knew what had to happen. He cut her off.
> 
> Which he had been unwilling to do until then.
> 
> ...


You do "know before you know". It knew something was going on and thought maybe it was another woman he worked with. Then we went to her house for a party and there was nothing there. They were not pretending they just weren't inappropriate. 

I actually described the EA partner in a fight saying "I will never be 29 and carefree able to do XYZ...again". (XYZ were his new crazy extreme competition hobbies) she was behind all of that I had no clue it was her. I had forgotten all about her and he left it that way. I nailed it all. When I realized it I almost threw up.

He was beyond putting me second. He basically gave up without warning he just began talking to her and bit by bit it began. She was keeping him focused on only making himself happy. He was going right along. 

My H also after thinking about it when confronted did describe it as an "affair" though not sexual he knew it was wrong and "different " from other OS friends.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

EA doesnt have to be sexting, nude pics, or planning out a PA...
If you are having conversations with the opposite sex that you do NOT want your significant other to know about, are saying things u dont want them to hear or typing things you dont want them to read, if you are getting something from them you do NOT get or seek from your spouse, its an EA

If EVER in question, imagine your spouse and in laws reading your texts to your "friend" or listening in on the conversation...if your ok with that, then its not an EA


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Busy accountant, I like what you wrote.
> 
> If your husband had put you first would the other relationships have worried you?


Hey Wazza - I'm going to restate your question in terms of a PA, then see what you think.

So Busy, if you were getting mind blowing sex from your H every morning and night, you were content and your needs were met, would it bother you if he was boinking a work colleague during lunch?

Just for the record, the relationships did not "worry" me...lol....they clarified a whole lot of stuff for me. They were the final straw and I immediately took steps to file for divorce. Later, I back off those plans when my H asked me if I would give him a chance to save the marriage.

The relationships were fueled by the infatuation. And, note that it was mutual on the part of H and all three of the OW's. Therefore, they all were actively part of perpetuating the affair. Thiis was not a matter of my H simply infatuated with someone, these were relatioships that were built on a romantic interest. The "business" side of the relationship simply was a guise to justify it.

So, to someone elses question, yes, H was considering divorce, as was I.

As to another post, my illustration about marital vows was simply that, an illustration to point out that committed relationships are built on way more than just sex. Therefore, marital, non-marital relationships, same sex, etc can all be betrayed not only because of sex, but because of breaking other expectations that come with being in a committed relationship.

Without rereading and specifically responding to posters, I also recall some discussion of cause and effect. I'm not sure what that point was, but I guess I would look at the same analogy in a PA and see if it holds water. PA's can start for all sorts of reasons but many times, the PA's themselves cause problems in the marriage, no different with an EA.

I must confess, I find it quite triggering that those of us who have been on the receiving end of an EA not only have to deal with the betrayal and its fallout, but are left to justify that we were even betrayed at all. This "check the box diagnosis" and tit for tat point/counterpoint is ultimately unproductive. Its kinda like defining love. Assuming that all of us on this forum at one point in our lives was in love, how many of us needed a list of checkboxes to tell us that we were? And, if any one of us were to describe the feeling and left out some "key" component, would the rest of us tell the one that they were not in fact "in love"? Like I said before, when you experience an EA, you know it. The MC's two sentence definition was enough for my H to look inside himself and admit to himself that he was indeed cheating. It did not take a checklist for him to decide. The outside affirmation of an EA is helpful because the WS can divert the betrayal as being "just friends". I will tell you , my H never engaged another male or an "ugly" woman the way he engaged the OW's.

Just for the record, H did have a 4th relationship that was discussed in MC. It was highly flirtatious but I never described it as an EA. However, there were attributes of that relationship that were worth talking about in MC. Just pointing that out so you know that I am not quick to jump on the EA bandwagon and to acknowledge that there is a line that one crosses into an EA.

Not really sure I addressed all the points directed at me.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> I can only imagine that a couple people here are considering EAs and looking for justification.
> 
> In that case, the best thing to do is to look for message boards where there are a lot of female posters who brag about having male friends.
> 
> Those would be the people who will help you poo-poo the idea that EA is a real concept and problem in relationships.


That would have been me ***before***. I would have figured if anyone got in trouble with boundaries I seemed to have more opportunity. But I'm not a secretive or deceptive person. All my friendships are appropriate, respectful of my marriage and he is welcome to participate in any conversation or activity....always has been.

He ended up in the EA and was really swept up in the idea of her as his secret confidant. After confrontation he was at first defensive of her and thier "friendship" .


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Busy Accountant said:


> I must confess, I find it quite triggering that those of us who have been on the receiving end of an EA not only have to deal with the betrayal and its fallout, but are left to justify that we were even betrayed at all.


If I seem to be doing that I apologise. I am not questioning what happened to you or challenging your experience. I am trying to learn from what you wrote and apply it to my own situation. Very selfish perhaps. I want to make sure that I do not betray my marriage with an emotional affair.



Busy Accountant said:


> Hey Wazza - I'm going to restate your question in terms of a PA, then see what you think.
> 
> So Busy, if you were getting mind blowing sex from your H every morning and night, you were content and your needs were met, would it bother you if he was boinking a work colleague during lunch?


That wasn't the question I intended to ask. Using your PA analogy.... "Your h makes love to you. He also has physical contact with other women. At what point does that become a betrayal? Shaking hands? A hug? A peck on the cheek? A kiss on the lips......?" And again, I am asking not to challenge your experience, but to work on my own boundaries. 

My wife and I both have opposite sex friends, and she has in the past had an affair that was both physical and emotional, so I get the pain infidelity brings, and in fact the emotional betrayal, the fact that at one point it was him and her against me, hurts more than the physical to me.



Busy Accountant said:


> Thiis was not a matter of my H simply infatuated with someone, these were relatioships that were built on a romantic interest. The "business" side of the relationship simply was a guise to justify it.


When I have friends, I am friends with them. I support them, I care about them, I like spending time with them. It is nice just to know they are there. I will send little tokens just to say they are special. 

So I read some of your first post and it got me wondering whether I cross a line. 

I care about my best friend apart from my wife deeply. Like is not a strong enough word, it is a form of love. Now it is quite different from the love I feel for my wife, but it is still love.

If I said "I love my wife and I love my mother" no one would bat an eyelid. But being able to say "I love my wife, and I love my best friend apart from my wife, who is female." will probably ring alarm bells for some. It does for me, too, not to the point of ending the friendship, but to the point of going to a lot of trouble to keep it appropriate. I know the love with my friend is different, because I have not allowed it to grow in certain directions, but if I did not keep it in check I think it could very quickly stray into inappropriate territory.

And my definition of appropriate is...define anything that I think would be inappropriate in such a relationship...say if my wife had it, not me. Plus, if my wife decides any aspect if the friendship is inappropriate, abide by her rules and wishes.



Busy Accountant said:


> As to another post, my illustration about marital vows was simply that, an illustration to point out that committed relationships are built on way more than just sex. Therefore, marital, non-marital relationships, same sex, etc can all be betrayed not only because of sex, but because of breaking other expectations that come with being in a committed relationship.


For me, part of the process of making the marriage work is aligning my expectations with those of my wife. Our expectations are not the same. So, for example, boinking other people is clearly out. But how much time should go into the marriage vs other things in life? This is a question we have struggled with as a couple.



Busy Accountant said:


> This "check the box diagnosis" and tit for tat point/counterpoint is ultimately unproductive. Its kinda like defining love. Assuming that all of us on this forum at one point in our lives was in love, how many of us needed a list of checkboxes to tell us that we were?


The check the box diagnosis is about explicitly defining the concept as much as possible. I don't think a precise, objective definition is possible. But thinking about it helps me to challenge my own actions.

Your original post mentioned things your husband did with his EA partners, and I do some of them with my friend. Some sections of this bit.



Busy Accountant said:


> The problem was the puke-fest of misplaced admiration that went along with the conversations. "golly you are such a great guy"..."your family is really lucky to have you"...."you are like a blooming flower"...."you will be amazing at whatever you do"...."you can tell me to pound sand, but what do you really want to do with your life?"....."its a sunny day here, what's going on out there?"...etc etc. Yep, H exchanged weather reports with one AP...just because he was thinking of her. She was 1200 miles away, and he had no intent of traveling to her city, but if either of them stopped and looked out the window, they just had to email each other if it was raining outside. Needless to say, I suggested that H shortcut weather.com on his desktop if he needed weather reports in the future. Bottom line, it was the affair fog that was skewing his visions of his OW's and his vision of me, just like a PA. They were emotionally intimate.
> 
> H made the needs of his AP's more important than my needs, just like most PA's. Those relationships replaced the emotional intimacy in our marriage. He day-dreamed with them. He worked late so he could spend time emailing them, then he got home and literally would not say a word to me. He encouraged them in their careers and said nothing about mine. And like others have mentioned, there was secrecy.



So my reply to you was not a challenge to you, but me challenging myself. Am I drifting into inappropriate territory without realising?


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Wazza have you asked your wife how she feels? Has she ever expressed any kind of annoyance, jealousy, insecurity about the OS friend?

If she has, be careful. If she's fine with it and you've been honest then it isn't an issue for you.

I have OS friends but they are gay or friends of the marriage for the most part. I work with a fair amount of narcissistic men just as a hazard of the job. Rock musicians are used to female attention and being idolized and getting what they want. So maintaining boundaries is easy because getting the image of the manager who sleeps with her artists is death in this business. 

If my H had developed a "normal" friendship with the OW and I was aware of their continued contact. It wouldn't have been the same issue.

If you think what you are feeling for your friend is wrong or takes something away from your wife...there you go. It's really up to the people in the marriage to draw the lines and not cross them. As as been said before, it isn't one size fits all.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> Wazza have you asked your wife how she feels? Has she ever expressed any kind of annoyance, jealousy, insecurity about the OS friend?
> 
> If she has, be careful. If she's fine with it and you've been honest then it isn't an issue for you.
> 
> ...


We talk about it regularly. My friendship only happens with wife's permission. And that permissions based on complete and honest disclosure by me.

The friendship, from my perspective, has actually been a force to improve the marriage, but only because I have made a big effort to make it so.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

OK, that seems to be your answer . But can I ask what the driver for talking about it regularly is? Is it a tenuous situation? 

As for your OS friend being a force to improve the marriage, how so?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> OK, that seems to be your answer . But can I ask what the driver for talking about it regularly is? Is it a tenuous situation?
> 
> As for your OS friend being a force to improve the marriage, how so?


Wife had an affair in 1990, I stayed for the kids, the relationship got better but many issues arising from the affair were not dealt with. Kids became adults, I reached the point where I felt we had to deal with certain things or think about divorce. That was a journey over the last four or five years.

Friendship was formed in that context. She had marital issues too and we supported each other. I needed that support, it may be that it saved my marriage. But seeing the danger of it I adopted a stance of full disclosure from the get go. As the friendship evolved, my wife and I had to evolve new rules for dealing with it. That led to a lot of talk about boundaries and our marriage, which was a time of tremendous growth. 

We have a pattern that works now. I revisit it from time to time just to make sure no issues are growing as things evolve. Just because it had been all good so far, doesn't mean I feel I should relax. I wouldn't use the word tenuous, but I want to be careful.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

Busy Accountant said:


> Hey Wazza - I'm going to restate your question in terms of a PA, then see what you think.
> 
> So Busy, if you were getting mind blowing sex from your H every morning and night, you were content and your needs were met, would it bother you if he was boinking a work colleague during lunch?
> 
> ...


The 'experts' define an EA in terms of the impact that it has on a relationship. If there is impact, there is no EA. If you are getting all your emotional needs met and the other 'activity' is not sucking emotional attention away from your marriage, then it's not an EA. Likewise if your marriage has already had the emotional air sucked out of it, then there can be no EA.

This is not my definition but that of the 'experts'.

So the comparison with a PA in those terms does not hold water. The definition of a PA does not rely on the impact to the marriage. If your husband were out there having sex with someone else every night and you were still getting great sex at home then it would still be a PA.

I'm sorry if you feel that this thread is making you justify that you were the victim of an EA and this is creating triggers for you. The purpose of the thread was very clear in the OP. It is about the EA as a concept and is not trying to evaluate or solve anyone's individual issues. Frankly, we should be able to have mature discussions about the constructs that the so called experts (MCs, authors and other relationship 'professionals') are using to diagnose and treat peoples' problems without being shut down because the challenges might be hurtful to some people.

I like questar1's post the best because although i don't really share her perspective on this, at least she gets what this discussion is about.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Wife had an affair in 1990, I stayed for the kids, the relationship got better but many issues arising from the affair were not dealt with. Kids became adults, I reached the point where I felt we had to deal with certain things or think about divorce. That was a journey over the last four or five years.
> 
> Friendship was formed in that context. She had marital issues too and we supported each other. I needed that support, it may be that it saved my marriage. But seeing the danger of it I adopted a stance of full disclosure from the get go. As the friendship evolved, my wife and I had to evolve new rules for dealing with it. That led to a lot of talk about boundaries and our marriage, which was a time of tremendous growth.
> 
> We have a pattern that works now. I revisit it from time to time just to make sure no issues are growing as things evolve. Just because it had been all good so far, doesn't mean I feel I should relax. I wouldn't use the word tenuous, but I want to be careful.



It shows respect that you are careful and given the bigger personal picture, I really applaud you for the awareness that you need to stay "careful". 

Your own feelings along with those of your wife in combination with full disclosure and honesty seem within bounds IMO. Given your wife had the affair that spurred the friendship it's kind of interesting the friendship endured and your wife is open. Hey if it works for you I'm not going to argue.

In my case I didn't have an affair. There were problems. We've been together 20+ years. D day way a few months ago. So still detoxing off bile and rage.

So when his EA came out (I figured it out). There was no negotiation. I had seen an attorney before confront and outed her to her Fiancé (he dumped her).


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> Given your wife had the affair that spurred the friendship it's kind of interesting the friendship endured and your wife is open. Hey if it works for you I'm not going to argue.


The friendship started as talking through our respective situations. It endured because we were a very good fit. One of those relationships that only happens a few times in a lifetime. We still support each other on marriage issues, but that is one small aspect of a much broader relationship.

My wife was torn. She recognised that I needed the friendship, but the first time we met my friend and her husband in person, she struggles with the feeling that she and husband were the bad guys. So she is open but she did have some stuff to work through.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

kristin2349 said:


> Wazza have you asked your wife how she feels? Has she ever expressed any kind of annoyance, jealousy, insecurity about the OS friend?
> 
> If she has, be careful. If she's fine with it and you've been honest then it isn't an issue for you.
> 
> ...


We have to be careful about this as well as the guise of "total honesty" can get twisted as well. My fiance asked me if I minded that he sees other women but "just as friends." He told me later that that should have alerted me to the fact that he was interested in dating other women. But then he justified his EA by saying that she was "just a friend" and therefore safe, and therefore, he was totally honest with me. I told him that he couldn't use the same word in this context to mean totally different things and to expect me to understand and trust him.

If you read other people's accounts of EAs, you will also see that the cheating partner can sometimes conduct the relationship in full view. Seeing the "OSF" one on one while the BP stays home because there is some indication that he /she is not welcomed and so on. 

and my feeling now is that any friendship / relationship can change and can sometimes change pretty fast. Having an OSF that you see as if they were the same sex ie, one on one; late in the evening; alcohol fueled; taking trips or talk of it........ is going very soon to result in one side accusing the other of being led on........

For the partner who is caught up in this extra curricular relationships, which way is he / she going to go?


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Oh dear, I just have to address this.
> 
> There is no comparison between the wife and some just a friend woman out there who buzzes in for a drink or a free meal, says a few compliments and then leaves until the next time.
> 
> ...


I don't follow you. 

I just don't Think that for it to be an EA the WS needs to put the OM/OW Before the BS. 

I'm not having nor is my wife having an EA. I just stared this thread because I have a big poblem in defining an EA.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> We have to be careful about this as well as the guise of "total honesty" can get twisted as well. My fiance asked me if I minded that he sees other women but "just as friends." He told me later that that should have alerted me to the fact that he was interested in dating other women. But then he justified his EA by saying that she was "just a friend" and therefore safe, and therefore, he was totally honest with me. I told him that he couldn't use the same word in this context to mean totally different things and to expect me to understand and trust him.
> 
> If you read other people's accounts of EAs, you will also see that the cheating partner can sometimes conduct the relationship in full view. Seeing the "OSF" one on one while the BP stays home because there is some indication that he /she is not welcomed and so on.
> 
> ...


Just as friends is not dating. By my standards he was not honest.

And I have never been out alone with my OSF, a limit I imposed. My wife, who has been out alone with her OSF, thinks my limit is too strict. She is ok for me to go out alone with my friend in public. Her take is that she will trust me to be honest and the limits we impose are about not seeing me tempted. We are still talking through that.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

TOMTEFAR said:


> I don't follow you.
> 
> I just don't Think that for it to be an EA the WS needs to put the OM/OW Before the BS.
> 
> I'm not having nor is my wife having an EA. I just stared this thread because I have a big poblem in defining an EA.



I don't think there are any clear cut definitions to be found here. Just more to consider. As Questar posted "you just know". 

For some the answer is no OS friends, others have different lines. As you posted same sex friends can be a drain or have a negative effect but aren't always viewed as "bad" . Hobbies can have a I liar effect. Everyone has a different relationship and threshold for what is "too far". You have to find what makes sense in your relationship and do that. I know what works for my marriage (and that is tough enough some days). I can't put my values and rules on someone else's marriage. I can tell you what I've learned from my experience with this. 

It's as always an interesting discussion.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

couple said:


> I know that you are only stating your beliefs but an EA is generally not used here as part of a continuum between IR and PA. One can have a PA without an IR and an EA. Also, many here state that an EA can be as serious or more serious a transgression than a PA.
> 
> Your list is a list of things that might suggest an EA, particularly if there are multiple of them. But would you propose that a certain number of these checked off and boom, a spouse has crossed the line into cheating/transgression/betrayal? Say yes to 5 of them and bam he's guilty of betrayal? While it might bear out your experience, it's not reliable as a framework to explain what an EA is.
> 
> ...


Actually wikipedia does not say this. What it says exactly is this *"If the relationship in question was poor and tenuous to begin, and problems were occurring before the extraneous relationship was formed, the term "emotional affair" is less applicable - the relationship may instead be suffering from a Relational disorder."* Personally I don't follow wikipedia much, but you have misrepresented what it specifically states. You state that it says it is not an EA. What it does say is that it is less applicable and that the relationship "MAY" be suffering from a relational disorder.

I have seen the impact of EAs personally and professionally. In many cases an EA can have more devastation on a relationship then a ONS.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I would be interested to know who is supplying content about EAs to Wikipedia.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> I would be interested to know who is supplying content about EAs to Wikipedia.


:iagree:

I cringe at the phrases "Wikipedia says" or "according to Wikipedia." Better to say "the author of the Wikipedia article says...." or "the most recent iteration of the Wikipedia entry claims..." or something like that. PEOPLE write these things and edit them and they are ALL questionable, ie., a smart reader questions all content. Well, of everything in life, actually. 

And all respectable intellectual traditions consist of debate, anyway--this thread on EA's has been one of the best discussions I've seen to date. It's okay to say there is a subjective element to something like this, it's not black and white, despite our societal and bureaucratic urge to codify and delineate everything into a neat little box so we can say "this is" or "this isn't."

My H could easily have said about his putative EA, when I accused him, "No, it's not, what are you talking about?" and that too is part of the experience. I.e., part of the experience of an EA is not knowing if that's what you are doing or your partner is doing. That ineffable, slippery quality of b.s.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

As the BS in EA's I approach this issue of "definition" by what impact the definition would have had in my life.

As many of you have said, you know when you have been betrayed. The challenges to the betrayal did not come from my H or the MC. They came from people outside the marriage who did not respect the context of the relationships he had.

Therefore, consider the use of a concise, precise, definition....once you discovered the affairs, exactly how was a "definition" going to help you? Would it lessen the pain? Would it change how you viewed the relationships?

If I had walked into the MC's office and had not answered the right amount of questions in the yes column, what would I have done? Just walked out and said "nevermind"?

As it was, I saw the emails and I made a simple conclusion......that I was not willing to live with other women in my marriage, emotionally or physically. The rest was up to H.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

Thorburn said:


> Actually wikipedia does not say this. What it says exactly is this *"If the relationship in question was poor and tenuous to begin, and problems were occurring before the extraneous relationship was formed, the term "emotional affair" is less applicable - the relationship may instead be suffering from a Relational disorder."* Personally I don't follow wikipedia much, but you have misrepresented what it specifically states. You state that it says it is not an EA. What it does say is that it is less applicable and that the relationship "MAY" be suffering from a relational disorder.
> 
> I have seen the impact of EAs personally and professionally. In many cases an EA can have more devastation on a relationship then a ONS.


OK, i take your point. It does say 'less applicable' not that it's not an EA. Anyway, 'less applicable' is problematic. Either you cheat and betray or you don't. With a PA, there is no 'less applicable'. That in itself points to the very unclear sense of what this thing is.

If you are a professional in these things, how about offering your own opinion? If you identify or diagnose EAs in those you see professionally, surely you have a clear definition of what it is. Why not share it? 

No one is doubting that an EA can be more devastating than a PA. That's not what this thread is about.

I'm a fan of wikipedia in general but i certainly understand its limits in accuracy in some cases. However, it is amazingly accurate for the way that it's written and it provides good overviews of topics like this, even if it doesn't stand up to academic rigor. Anyway, if anyone feels the wiki entry for EA is a poor representation of the wider literature on EA then why not explain how and why? Or point us to an alternate source of a definition that is widely accepted among the MC community or other 'professionals'. Anyway the debate is not about wikipedia.

I'm still amazed that this term is used so commonly here on TAM and nobody can define it. most 'definitions' have been just examples that can equally apply to other situations. Most of the rest is trying to say how harmful they are (yeah we get that already..it's not about whether they are harmful or not!) Let's first understand what it is before we jump to how harmful it is.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Busy Accountant said:


> As the BS in EA's I approach this issue of "definition" by what impact the definition would have had in my life.
> 
> As many of you have said, you know when you have been betrayed. The challenges to the betrayal did not come from my H or the MC. They came from people outside the marriage who did not respect the context of the relationships he had.
> 
> ...


Your last para says it all to me, you and your husband have to agree on what constitutes a deal breaker for you.

I guess if I didn't tick enough boxes and everyone was telling me I was overreacting, I might examine whether I had drawn reasonable lines. But at the end of the day, you have to chose to live with the commitment yor partner is willing to make, or you walk away.


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## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

couple said:


> So if love is not a requirement for something to be an EA, then what do you need? Infatuation? Attraction? (and are we talking about sexual attraction?) Desire? Do you have to have sexual fantasies about them? (can anything happening in your head be considered 'cheating'?)
> 
> *I think, EA is a relationship with someone you are sexually attracted to...you will not be talking/writing to the person the way you do if your spouse is around or know EXACTLY how you act/talk/write to them. You may tell your spouse about your "friendship" with B, but you will not want your spouse to know the extent of your friendship. So I call bull to those who say they don't realize they are in EA, when you hide it from your spouse, start putting passcode on your phone, changing password of your email, you KNOW what you are doing is wrong. *
> 
> ...


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Spot on Stronger.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

Stronger,

You say:
<I think, EA is a relationship with someone you are sexually attracted to..>

OK, I won't argue with this but this is not a part of any 'official' definition of EA that I've seen. A requirement for sexual attraction is simply not part of the 'professional's' definition, nor have i seen it in the 5 pages of comments here. It doesn't mean that it's wrong, it just further proves my point that there are a million different ideas of an EA with no proper formal definition and therefore it's a pseudo-science term.

You say:
<Most EA involves sharing things about your marital problems that your spouse is not even aware of. >

It's a waste of time to argue this point but it's a useless distinction in determining what an EA is. Many, if not most, marital problems are well known to both parties. Married couples forever fight over money/spending, lack of attention, too much golf, too much drinking, too much working and all of this is out in the open. Yes, there are things that you might share with an 'EA' but not share with your spouse like 'i don't find my husband attractive any more.' or 'my wife is too fat' etc. but it's silly to say that this should be a requirement for an EA to be an EA.

You say:
<All it takes is a reciprocation from that person. If there is no reciprocation, the only thing stopping you from having an affair is that someone else doesn't feel the same.>

This is pretty shocking. You're saying that if you are smitten (i.e. are attracted to a person), then all that is stopping you from sleeping with them is agreement from that person???? Are you serious? how many people have little attractions (harmless or otherwise) with 'the guy in the gym' or the new guy in accounting? I'm not saying that these attractions can't be dangerous but to assume that a person would sleep with everyone that they become attracted to is a little extreme, don't you think? Some people would, yes. but this is a very wrong generalization.


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## Hartbrok (Jul 16, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> yes I do believe more so for woman, there is the ease of them to give the emotional stuff to another woman, after all "they understand". I also have learned that *woman do not "understand" they just are less likely to tell one another they are being ridiculous*.


Quoted, underlined, and bolded for extreme truth.

I'd add less likely to tell them they're being dishonest, hurtful, unfair, or evil too. In fact, they usually validate whatever their "friend" is doing, and often encourage it.

If more women would grow a set of scruples, and say to their cheating friend, "_WTF are you doing, you skanky *****_", there would be a lot less WW.

And yes, despite all the stereotypes to the contrary, I do believe men are less likely to accept and encourage infidelity to their friends than women are.

Just my opinion.


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