# Do men sh*t test?



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Spin off from the men's



Deejo said:


> I still contend that there can be subtle differences between a sh!t test, and flat out disrespect or boundary crossing.
> 
> In the context that passing a sh!t test, usually makes a female partner feel more at ease, I have a hard time thinking that this plays out with men.
> 
> If a man is sh!t testing you, I'm under the belief that he's just being an ass ... or isn't being up-front about whatever it is that is bothering him.
> 
> Can one of you ladies open such a thread in the Ladies Lounge? I'm genuinely curious about this.



Do men sh*t test in relationships? Is it for different reasons than when women do it? Is a man just being an ass when he does it vs. a woman looking for safety?

Also- how common do you think sh*t testing is for women? I've never heard of the idea before TAM.


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## firebelly1

What IS sh*t testing?


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## GTdad

I don't want to define it, because I'm feeling lazy right now, but I'd argue that covert contracts and passive-aggressive behavior by men in general meets the definition. Which I'm keeping to myself.


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## WandaJ

Here ladies, you can learn soemthing new about yourself: when you tell your hubby that you do not like something you are being manipulative. That's at least conclusion of some of the posters.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/230034-sh-t-tests-fitness-tests.html


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Maybe someone else can explain it better, I'm just learning what it means myself.

It's from MMSLP and I can't find any kind of official definition.

From what I can figure out, it's when one spouse makes an unreasonable* (*up for debate) request or passive agressive comment like "Why do I always have to remind you to take out the trash?" or "I hate that you load the dishwasher wrong. You don't know how to do it."


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## Deejo

We tend to use the word 'Fitness Test' around here. The two terms are interchangeable.

Here is what I feel is a concise definition of a fitness test that was made by another member back in the original thread I linked in the Men's Clubhouse.



BigBadWolf said:


> Don't imagine a woman thinks or feels like a man, in sexual nature, as different as east from west.
> 
> Sh!t tests, they are not intellectual or logical, a woman often doesn't realize it when asked outright what she is even doing.
> 
> It is a test of feeling, of emotion.
> 
> A man passing test producing FEELINGS his woman of security and sexual attraction.
> 
> A man not passing test producing FEELINGS of resentment, emotional withdrawal, angst, and restlessness.
> 
> A man certainly will judge a woman, and a woman judge a man.
> 
> Judging, is logical, intellectual.
> 
> Fitness tests, they are emotional, sexual, primal.


Based upon the above definition, I question if men fitness/sh!t test, however I would absolutely agree that covert contracts (If I do A, and expect her to respond with B, without telling her I expect/want her to respond with B) I suppose I would categorize in a similar fashion. But ... I think both men and women for sure use covert contracts, and without question it is an unhealthy way to conduct a relationship or to poison communication.

From my own experience, there are certainly ways that my female partner can respond that put me at ease, and make me feel desired and safe. But ... I don't set up circumstances consciously or otherwise to make that discovery.

Quick example here may be the old, does she reach over and unlock your car door once you have opened the door for her on the passenger's side. (Very basic example)

I am very curious to understand if men fitness test in the same manner that some women do. 

Example I just thought of (again, on the male front), my GF indicated that in a previous relationship she didn't feel safe, based on the fact that she was harassed by a group of men at a bar, was very upset and angry, and upon telling her BF at the time, he did nothing, said nothing. He had an opportunity to prove himself to her, and her value to him by stepping up and saying or doing anything ... but did not. He failed. She lost respect for him. Relationship drew to a close.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

"A man passing test producing FEELINGS his woman of security and sexual attraction.

A man not passing test producing FEELINGS of resentment, emotional withdrawal, angst, and restlessness."

So my question is: how do you know if your woman is sh*t testing you or actually wanting you to do the task she asked for?

'Cause for me, getting told NO (which would be passing the test) leads to resentment, not being as attracted to him and not feeling secure. Him saying YES would make me feel safe, loved and sexy as a result of feeling loved. 

Now this one "my GF indicated that in a previous relationship she didn't feel safe, based on the fact that she was harassed by a group of men at a bar, was very upset and angry, and upon telling her BF at the time, he did nothing, said nothing. He had an opportunity to prove himself to her, and her value to him by stepping up and saying or doing anything ... but did not. He failed. She lost respect for him. Relationship drew to a close. " 

Yes, I would want him to say something, sympathy. But he gets up, says he's going to go kick someone's ass, pressures me over and over again "what did he look like" and assumes he's going to go find the guys and teach them a lesson. Doesn't make me feel safe, makes me feel like he's volatile and scary. So it can go too far too. 

Being a man, making your wife feel safe and sexy shouldn't be by playing games. Listen, communicate, love.


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## Deejo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> "A man passing test producing FEELINGS his woman of security and sexual attraction.
> 
> A man not passing test producing FEELINGS of resentment, emotional withdrawal, angst, and restlessness."
> 
> So my question is: how do you know if your woman is sh*t testing you or actually wanting you to do the task she asked for?
> 
> 'Cause for me, getting told NO (which would be passing the test) leads to resentment, not being as attracted to him and not feeling secure. Him saying YES would make me feel safe, loved and sexy as a result of feeling loved.
> 
> Now this one "my GF indicated that in a previous relationship she didn't feel safe, based on the fact that she was harassed by a group of men at a bar, was very upset and angry, and upon telling her BF at the time, he did nothing, said nothing. He had an opportunity to prove himself to her, and her value to him by stepping up and saying or doing anything ... but did not. He failed. She lost respect for him. Relationship drew to a close. "
> 
> Yes, I would want him to say something, sympathy. But he gets up, says he's going to go kick someone's ass, pressures me over and over again "what did he look like" and assumes he's going to go find the guys and teach them a lesson. Doesn't make me feel safe, makes me feel like he's volatile and scary. So it can go too far too.
> 
> Being a man, making your wife feel safe and sexy shouldn't be by playing games. Listen, communicate, love.


Respectfully, you're being a bit too literal, and modifying the circumstances to suit your perception.

You are presuming that 'NO' means passing the test.

You are presuming that defending the girlfriend meant threatening to kick someone's ass.

Neither need be the case.



MEM11363 said:


> T,
> That isn't quite the point. My W is also blunt. Generally speaking she does not play games. I define a "fitness test" as:
> - W takes an unreasonable position
> - I logically and thoroughly explain why it is not ok
> - She attempts to "brute force" her way through the conversation
> 
> At this point who is "right" has nothing to do with it. Now we purely have a contest of wills.
> 
> I have no idea why she does this. From reading this is a fairly common female behavior. All I know is I have gotten really experienced at working through these without having to break a lot of emotional glass....


I think MEM's last sentence is pure gold. It isn't about him winning and his wife losing.

It's about deflection, diffusion, and yes it is absolutely a game ... and once you're good at it, it becomes fun, not frustrating.

Being good at handling boundaries and sh!t tests brings you closer together. It isn't intended to create winners and losers.


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## IvyGirl

Trying to speak only from my own personal experience - 
It's difficult to answer the question "do men sh*t test?" because i think men and women have a different perspective on the test. When I say "You never load the dishwasher right, why do I always have to tell you?" (or whatever example you want), I am not thinking of it as a test. It is simply a request, and I probably, in that moment, feel that he NEVER does it right and I ALWAYS have to tell him, even if it's not exactly true. Emotions and memory are funny like that. If he does what I ask, that's the end of it. If he refuses, I remember that, and probably feel hurt that I was disregarded. The guys are calling this a "test", and the women are calling it "life", lol.
So if that is a sh!t test, then yes, my hubby tests me. When he says "I know you have a headache, but I'm really in the mood!" or "I know you've had a long day, but my back hurts, will you watch the kids tonight?" I don't think he's intentionally testing me. But if I don't do what he wants, he will remember it and be upset, and I will definitely hear about it later.
By the guys' definition, I think statements like that would be sh!t tests from men. But they don't call it that, they just call it "life."


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## Thundarr

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Spin off from the men's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do men sh*t test in relationships? Is it for different reasons than when women do it? Is a man just being an ass when he does it vs. a woman looking for safety?
> 
> Also- how common do you think sh*t testing is for women? I've never heard of the idea before TAM.


Yes men do it too and the reasons are more closely related to why women do it than most realize. Maybe they're 'safety test'. The most common scenario I can think of is when a guy pressures his SO for really frequent sex. That makes him feel safe that he's loved. Also when a guy wants his SO to do anything and everything that she's every done with anyone else. There again he's looking for security that he's more special than the others were.

Oh wait. I'm getting confused on fitness versus sh!t. But I'm sure men do both.


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## Deejo

IvyGirl said:


> Trying to speak only from my own personal experience -
> It's difficult to answer the question "do men sh*t test?" because i think men and women have a different perspective on the test. When I say "You never load the dishwasher right, why do I always have to tell you?" (or whatever example you want), I am not thinking of it as a test. It is simply a request, and I probably, in that moment, feel that he NEVER does it right and I ALWAYS have to tell him, even if it's not exactly true. Emotions and memory are funny like that. If he does what I ask, that's the end of it. If he refuses, I remember that, and probably feel hurt that I was disregarded. The guys are calling this a "test", and the women are calling it "life", lol.
> So if that is a sh!t test, then yes, my hubby tests me. When he says "I know you have a headache, but I'm really in the mood!" or "I know you've had a long day, but my back hurts, will you watch the kids tonight?" I don't think he's intentionally testing me. But if I don't do what he wants, he will remember it and be upset, and I will definitely hear about it later.
> By the guys' definition, I think statements like that would be sh!t tests from men. But they don't call it that, they just call it "life."


Nope. None of those are sh!t tests. 

The case of the dishwasher was a male poster who had allowed his boundaries to be absolutely run roughshod over.

His wife didn't respect him. And how he chose to respond to her continued to feed her disrespect rather than diffuse it.

And the fact of the matter remains, that somewhere in the exchanges that we have with one another as partners, if I don't point out the fact that I don't like they way you 'asked' or I don't support you, make you feel safe, nurture you, demonstrate strength, confidence, and capability ... then the alternative is that you lose respect for me, you aren't attracted, you don't want to be sexual, you don't feel excited to be around me, you grow resentful ... 

and invariably, you unconsciously start LOOKING for reasons to feed your resent, and disrespect.

For those that think this is crap and game playing, I can live with that.

Me? I'll just keep on loading the dishwasher with the knives, blades down and the fork tines pointing down. Just like I always have. And my dishes sparkle ... let me assure you.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Deejo said:


> Respectfully, you're being a bit too literal, and modifying the circumstances to suit your perception.
> 
> You are presuming that 'NO' means passing the test.
> 
> You are presuming that defending the girlfriend meant threatening to kick someone's ass.
> 
> Neither need be the case.
> 
> 
> 
> I think MEM's last sentence is pure gold. It isn't about him winning and his wife losing.
> 
> It's about deflection, diffusion, and yes it is absolutely a game ... and once you're good at it, it becomes fun, not frustrating.
> 
> Being good at handling boundaries and sh!t tests brings you closer together. It isn't intended to create winners and losers.


But it shouldn't be a game if you have communication. When I say something I expect to be taken seriously and that my words mean what I said. Anything less than that, assuming I'm playing a game or wanting something other than what I am saying is disrespectful. Thinking these things because of the fact that I have a vagina (so clearly I play games and have hidden meanings )is very disrespectful. Just listen to what I say. Communicate back about how you feel about it. Come to an agreement/compromise. Simple. 

In this case:

- W takes an unreasonable position
- I logically and thoroughly explain why it is not ok
- She attempts to "brute force" her way through the conversation

It's 1 side. Maybe wife's position isn't unreasonable, maybe logic isn't the way to solve it. It works for him but it would not work for many women.


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## IvyGirl

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But it shouldn't be a game if you have communication. When I say something I expect to be taken seriously and that my words mean what I said. Anything less than that, assuming I'm playing a game or wanting something other than what I am saying is disrespectful. Thinking these things because of the fact that I have a vagina (so clearly I play games and have hidden meanings )is very disrespectful. Just listen to what I say. Communicate back about how you feel about it. Come to an agreement/compromise. Simple.



THAT. Exactly. They see an intentional "test", when we feel we're just asking for something. 

So if we point out examples of times we've been "tested", they see times they were making a request and didn't like our response.


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## Thundarr

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> "A man passing test producing FEELINGS his woman of security and sexual attraction.
> 
> A man not passing test producing FEELINGS of resentment, emotional withdrawal, angst, and restlessness."
> 
> So my question is: how do you know if your woman is sh*t testing you or actually wanting you to do the task she asked for?


I think it's about feeling disrespected or minimized and then speaking up and saying so. So rather than 'test', it could be looked at as a boundary reenforcement opportunity. And it's not necessarily a boxing match and not really gender specific in a lot of regards.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all
I think there are fuzzy boundaries. 

I suspect that some men ask for some sexual acts as a sort of "fitness test" . Women may do this as well but I suspect less often.


I've always been a sucker for "fitness tests". Ages ago my wife told me that the boyfriend of one of her friends has carried a rock up from the bottom of the grand canyon for her and wondered if I would do the same. At the time I said "no", I won't do things just to "prove" myself. But...later when I was hiking the canyon I did carry a rock up and gave it to her afterwards. The rock is still in our living room.

Once she called me in the middle of an overseas meeting and told me that she really needed me home right away - was feeling poorly. I knew she wasn't really sick, but but I bought tickets on the next flight home. (6000 miles away)

So, I'm a completely doormat - mostly because I simply don't care about most things. On the rare occasions when I do care, I'm remarkably stubborn.


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## Deejo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But it shouldn't be a game if you have communication. When I say something I expect to be taken seriously and that my words mean what I said. Anything less than that, assuming I'm playing a game or wanting something other than what I am saying is disrespectful. Thinking these things because of the fact that I have a vagina (so clearly I play games and have hidden meanings )is very disrespectful. Just listen to what I say. Communicate back about how you feel about it. Come to an agreement/compromise. Simple.
> 
> In this case:
> 
> - W takes an unreasonable position
> - I logically and thoroughly explain why it is not ok
> - She attempts to "brute force" her way through the conversation
> 
> It's 1 side. Maybe wife's position isn't unreasonable, maybe logic isn't the way to solve it. It works for him but it would not work for many women.


I appreciate your perspective.

You sound an awful lot like someone I used to engage in these discussions with.

She was never going to agree with the premise of how men choose to respond to, or define these circumstances or events. And that's perfectly fine.

I don't disagree with your communication position at all. I just readily acknowledge that very few people communicate clearly, openly, and with distinct purpose all of the time.

If they did, we wouldn't have much to discuss around here.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Deejo said:


> I don't disagree with your communication position at all. I just readily acknowledge that very few people communicate clearly, openly, and with distinct purpose all of the time.
> 
> If they did, we wouldn't have much to discuss around here.


Well I am here partly because despite saying what I want, I don't get it. He doesn't budge, doesn't give in. If he'd just listen and do, we would be good. Respect would be gained, love would be restored and I'd be happy to meet his needs. 

I often worry about if H ever joined TAM because the advice he might get would be the opposite of what I want and I worry about if the wives of the men here want the advice as well. 

IMO- playing games is dangerous. What women want, what men want and what women think men want and what men think women want does not always match up. I used to be in a 99% women forum, for Mothers mainly. The talk there about what women want and say is vastly different from what the men seem to hear that they are wanting and saying. It's no wonder there are so many problems!

I just can't get behind the idea that women are as manipulative and complicated as you make it seem. Most of us really do simply mean what we say so IMO, that answer should be assumed WAY before the idea that it might be a test should be.


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## GettingIt_2

As a woman, it doesn't bother me that there is behavior that men have come to categorize as "sh1t tests" or "fitness tests." It's behavior that they see as being exclusive to women, and it's behavior that they don't understand well because its not behavior/communication style they would typically use. 

There seems to be some comfort to be had for men in developing an approach when they feel they are being presented with this sort of behavior. 

It actually was a boon to my marriage when I came to understand that my husband would react to behavior of mine that he didn't value or understand by processing it as a "sh!t test." It allowed me the opportunity to try to re-communicate in a way that he could value/understand OR to allow him to go ahead and do what he had to do in order not to sink into pissiness. 

There is NOTHING that kills my attraction faster than a pissy husband. 

Also a positive: since I kinda understand what behavior my husband will process as a sh!t test, I can use that behavior to blow off steam if I need to, and know that he'll just let it roll off of him. So if I have a pile of little nag items that I know are really petty and not valid but I just NEED to get them off my chest, I'll just poke at him with them while he stands there with "go ahead and *****, 'cuz when you're done you're gonna get turned over my knee" grin on his face. We've turned it into a sort of game. 

And by the same token, he's come to understand very well the sort of behavior I consider to be "beta" in him. He might not agree with me, but he pretty much knows what my reaction is going to be when he displays that behavior. 

We talk about this all the time in our marriage--"sh!t tests" and "beta behavior" pretty much just boil down to how difference between the sexes play out in some dynamics, and the difficulty we sometimes have in bridging that divide. 

If there were no men, there would be no "sh1t tests". 
If there were no women, there would be no "beta behavior."

We simply find ways to define and process what we don't like and what we don't "get" about our partners.


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## Thundarr

GettingIt said:


> As a woman, it doesn't bother me that there is behavior that men have come to categorize as "sh1t tests" or "fitness tests." It's behavior that they see as being exclusive to women, and it's behavior that they don't understand well because its not behavior/communication style they would typically use.
> 
> There seems to be some comfort to be had for men in developing an approach when they feel they are being presented with this sort of behavior.
> 
> It actually was a boon to my marriage when I came to understand that my husband would react to behavior of mine that he didn't value or understand by processing it as a "sh!t test." It allowed me the opportunity to try to re-communicate in a way that he could value/understand OR to allow him to go ahead and do what he had to do in order not to sink into pissiness.
> 
> There is NOTHING that kills my attraction faster than a pissy husband.
> 
> Also a positive: since I kinda understand what behavior my husband will process as a sh!t test, I can use that behavior to blow off steam if I need to, and know that he'll just let it roll off of him. So if I have a pile of little nag items that I know are really petty and not valid but I just NEED to get them off my chest, I'll just poke at him with them while he stands there with "go ahead and *****, 'cuz when you're done you're gonna get turned over my knee" grin on his face. We've turned it into a sort of game.
> 
> And by the same token, he's come to understand very well the sort of behavior I consider to be "beta" in him. He might not agree with me, but he pretty much knows what my reaction is going to be when he displays that behavior.
> 
> We talk about this all the time in our marriage--"sh!t tests" and "beta behavior" pretty much just boil down to how difference between the sexes play out in some dynamics, and the difficulty we sometimes have in bridging that divide.
> 
> If there were no men, there would be no "sh1t tests".
> If there were no women, there would be no "beta behavior."
> 
> We simply find ways to define and process what we don't like and what we don't "get" about our partners.


I always like you're posts. More specifically I respect the thought behind them. Yes these are labels for common dynamics.


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## soccermom2three

I don't think I've ever witnessed a fitness test by a man. I know I have fitness tested my husband. The words are out of my mouth and then I'm like, "damn I think that was a **** test."

My husband passes them with flying colors. Sometimes with just a raised eyebrow. Then I giggle.


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## firebelly1

I've never heard of a sh*t test before TAM and from this thread, I'm still not really understanding what they are. On the other thread the guy said that his wife asked him to take the kids out so she could have some alone time and then when he and the kids were out hunting she called and said she was lonely, could he come home. 

When I hear that story at first I scratched my head too. She said she wanted alone time? But there's this episode of Sex and the City where Carrie is freaking out because her bf Aidan has moved in and he's ALWAYS there. She finally gets the nerve to ask for a moment of silence in the apartment where he doesn't disturb her and after a couple of minutes of that silence, she goes and sits on his lap. Because what she really needed was to know he was willing to give her that time in silence. 

Is that a sh*t test? That phrase sounds like the wife who said she needed alone time KNEW ALL ALONG that when he got out hunting with the kids that she would call him back home. My guess is, she didn't. She didn't realize how much she valued him and the kids until she was without them and changed her mind. 

I don't like the implication that labelling something as a "sh*t test" has - purposeful manipulation. I wouldn't do that. But then again, if I asked the H for alone time, I wouldn't call him back home after he made all the arrangements with the kids. So, not sure what to think about that.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Yes, that's the part I do not like too. That it's purposeful manipulation and solely a woman thing and something that most women do, even if they don't realize it.

I think these kind of tests would be rare and not just a woman thing.


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## Flying_Dutchman

I clicked on the thread with some trepidation,, half expecting something more literal. I'd never heard of it. The things you learn.


Well,, I'm sure we all do subconscious "testing" - but to plan them??

If a woman told me "Congrats. You just passed my S-test." I'd tell her (with my new-found knowledge), "Congrats. You just failed mine."

Soooo many red flags or indicators of them (yellow flags).

- Signed up to a new fad (like PUA/Pea****ing). Probably wants the latest EVERYTHING

- A follower.

- A conformist,, to the 'doctrines' of S-testing and gawd knows what else.

- No faith in their own instincts, or in all of mankind.

- A plotter. Might do all kinds of stuff behind your back. Already did it and you only just met them!

- A desire to hang around with people "Just like me". Maybe other 'trendies' from the local cell of the 'S-test Club', where they gather to debate new and exciting sub-tests.


- Likely has a bad attitude to people who don't S-test cuz "They're sooo not with it."

- An innate fear of 'the others' who must be ridiculed, denigrated,, and ultimately destroyed. (Yep. Closet fascists).

- A complete inability to recognise that if they've attended a second, bi-weekly meeting at the PUA/S-test Club their hip new craze doesn't work any better than regular dating. AKA, Idiots!

- NOT practised by people confident of their social skills, improvisers, adventurists, individualists, creatists and go-getters. People with a sound grasp on reality who don't fear failure, own their mistakes and learn from them. Lovers, not haters. THE KIND OF PEOPLE I WANT TO DATE.

The ONLY good thing about the S-test is that it's very name suggests the best place to stick it.

- 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WandaJ

I think my husband is pretty much tester. throughout my whole relationship I often felt like I need to pass some kind of test.

Although I think i vaguely get an idea of those test, I think there is a danger there for those who think are being tested - it gives them excuse to refuse whatever is asked of them on grounds of "stupid" test. That they will take legitimate issues that their wife is trying to voice, and disregard it as manipulation or nagging. 

And then they will post about detached wife, no sex, and finally, suprised about walkaway wife.


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## Mr The Other

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Spin off from the men's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do men sh*t test in relationships? Is it for different reasons than when women do it? Is a man just being an ass when he does it vs. a woman looking for safety?
> 
> Also- how common do you think sh*t testing is for women? I've never heard of the idea before TAM.



The definition broadly is giving your partner a hard time at a vulnerable moment to see whether they cope with it. An example would be, they lose a relative and then the woman explodes at them for not doing something that they actually do. This was explained in some relationship tomes as being a test to see if the man can make the relationship cope under pressure. A more moderate example would be making an unreasonable demand or request with the secret hope that he will stand up for himself.

Yes, but when a man does it, it is called being a ****. It is also the same when a woman does it. I am inclined to call BS on it myself, it is true that a man who gives in all the time will end up being disrespected, but the I am not sure I believe that it is an example of the woman caring deeply about the health of the relationship.


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## JCD

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Is a man just being an ass when he does it vs. a woman looking for safety?


Follow up question: Is this a blinding amount of lack of social awareness, a deliberate slur, or just a moment of stupidity?

Did you think how that would sound to men?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

JCD said:


> Follow up question: Is this a blinding amount of lack of social awareness, a deliberate slur, or just a moment of stupidity?
> 
> Did you think how that would sound to men?


It's taken from the quote and conversation from the men's side

_In the context that passing a sh!t test, usually makes a female partner feel more at ease, I have a hard time thinking that this plays out with men.

If a man is sh!t testing you, I'm under the belief that he's just being an ass_

BTW- The only difference I think there is is how it's _perceived_. If a man and a woman pull the same "test" it is assumed that she has some manipulative meaning behind it while he is just assumed to be an ass. I don't think that's fair FTR, I think women can be just an ass. I also think some men can be manipulative. 

But no slur intended. It was a question, not my belief


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## Flying_Dutchman

Mr The Other said:


> The definition broadly is giving your partner a hard time at a vulnerable moment to see whether they cope with it. An example would be, they lose a relative and then the woman explodes at them for not doing something that they actually do.



Exactly that. It needn't even be anything so extreme. That anyone, irrespective of gender, thinks they have the right to upset somebody else's emotional equilibrium just to bolster their own. Merely wasting somebody's time on a mind game is self centred. Stuff like distressing the bereaved is sick.

S-tester = Red flag. Date one at your peril.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SevenYears

I'm not sure if this is the same thing and if it is sometimes no matter what you do its the wrong thing. 

Your partner is in a bad mood. Maybe with you, work or something else. When you ask them if there is anything troubling them they'll say nothing or they're fine. Or they may say they want to be alone for a bit. If you keep trying to find out what's wrong or help them they get annoyed because they wanted time by themselves. If you leave them alone they're annoyed that you don't care that they are upset over something.

I find these situations irritating. In other words fail / fail. Its a bit unfair if no matter what you do you fail the test.


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## thefam

I didn't know what a sh!t test was until I came to TAM. Im pretty sure my H has never heard of the term either, as we have never discussed it.

However, he thinks that every "crying" incident from a woman (besides obvious things like life threatening illness, death, and physical pain) are the equivalent of sh!t tests. 

I think men sh!t test too, though. Mostly by seeing how much sh!t their SO will take before she goes b!itch on him. But of course not my H. He's a perfect blend of alpha and beta


----------



## Wolf1974

intheory said:


> Wow, a lot of stupid back and forth about dishwashers on that thread.
> 
> Who cares about this stuff.
> 
> If your husband or wife loads the dishwasher badly and the cereal bowls come out with corn flakes still stuck on them; remind them nicely a couple of times how a dishwasher works.
> 
> If they don't do it right after that, then I guess we eat breakfast out of bowls with bits of old cereal stuck on them.
> 
> This is *not* a gender issue. Both men and women can be arrogant and disrespectful.
> 
> And sometimes we ALL need a little improvement and could use some constructive advice.


I have to agree. Never heard this concept before I came here and I guess I can say I have only seen it once from one woman who was younger. It makes you wonder how people could have so much time on their hands to come up with these tests for the other spouse. I just wish I had that kind of time


----------



## JCD

Wolf1974 said:


> I have to agree. Never heard this concept before I came here and I guess I can say I have only seen it once from one woman who was younger. It makes you wonder how people could have so much time on their hands to come up with these tests for the other spouse. I just wish I had that kind of time


I think most people don't realize that they are doing it until they get their 'answer'.

For example, if I asked my wife if she is going to IM me when I am away or go to a football party, it's an innocuous question until I realize how important the answer is to me which comes afterward, pass or fail.

I think a lot of this is people just don't like to be purposefully put in an uncomfortable decision making situation.

But that is part of life. Some people tend to do it a bit too much however. Needy types


----------



## NextTimeAround

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yes, that's the part I do not like too. That it's purposeful manipulation and solely a woman thing and something that most women do, even if they don't realize it.



It's not soley a woman thing. i remember now that I was being sh!t tested in my 20s. the guy mentioned that he was spending too much time with me and neglecting his work. I wasn't really in to him and was glad that he seemed to find a reason to create some space between us.

In less than a week after that phone call, he's calling me to find out why he has not heard from me. It was only years later that I realised he was trying to S- test me.


----------



## Deejo

"Hey listen, I've got to pick up Susie from school, she's sick, do you think you can leave work early and run the grocery and pharmacy?"

- Not a sh!t test

"You want to know why dinner isn't ready? Because Suzie puked at school, I had to pick her up and go to the clinic, which means I didn't get to go shopping or cook. If you had taken the time to call, you wouldn't have to ask."

- Covert Contract


"Do you care about your family at all? Your daughter came home sick today. Did you know that?"

- Sh!t Test 


"Suzie was really sick at school today. I was worried. I needed you."

- Straight expression of feelings


----------



## Mr The Other

NextTimeAround said:


> It's not soley a woman thing. i remember now that I was being sh!t tested in my 20s. the guy mentioned that he was spending too much time with me and neglecting his work. I wasn't really in to him and was glad that he seemed to find a reason to create some space between us.
> 
> In less than a week after that phone call, he's calling me to find out why he has not heard from me. It was only years later that I realised he was trying to S- test me.


Perhaps, or perhaps he was just being an ass.


----------



## firebelly1

Deejo said:


> "Hey listen, I've got to pick up Susie from school, she's sick, do you think you can leave work early and run the grocery and pharmacy?"
> 
> - Not a sh!t test
> 
> "You want to know why dinner isn't ready? Because Suzie puked at school, I had to pick her up and go to the clinic, which means I didn't get to go shopping or cook. If you had taken the time to call, you wouldn't have to ask."
> 
> - Covert Contract
> 
> 
> "Do you care about your family at all? Your daughter came home sick today. Did you know that?"
> 
> - Sh!t Test
> 
> 
> "Suzie was really sick at school today. I was worried. I needed you."
> 
> - Straight expression of feelings


Ok, that helps to clarify. But the sample you're giving as a sh*t test I would characterize as passive aggressiveness / martyr type behavior. Same thing?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Deejo said:


> "Hey listen, I've got to pick up Susie from school, she's sick, do you think you can leave work early and run the grocery and pharmacy?"
> 
> - Not a sh!t test
> 
> "You want to know why dinner isn't ready? Because Suzie puked at school, I had to pick her up and go to the clinic, which means I didn't get to go shopping or cook. If you had taken the time to call, you wouldn't have to ask."
> 
> - Covert Contract
> 
> 
> "Do you care about your family at all? Your daughter came home sick today. Did you know that?"
> 
> - Sh!t Test
> 
> 
> "Suzie was really sick at school today. I was worried. I needed you."
> 
> - Straight expression of feelings


I see different levels of emotions, frustration, communication skills but all with the same need being requested. I don't see testing. Just being an ass in that one.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I'll move this here


SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> just last night we had to fix a pipe. I was the only one who could fit in the space so he kept complaining - loudly- that I was doing it wrong. I wanted to tell him to go F himself and to figure out how to do it himself then. But he was stressed, so was I. He wanted it done right and he knew how to do it, I didn't. So we took a little break to breathe and I asked him to show me again and I did it. Big blow out fight avoided, issue got solved and we hugged it out afterwards with apologies on both ends for getting upset.
> 
> Sometimes people get emotional, stressed, rude even, when they are expressing a need or request. It doesn't necessarily mean she is testing your manhood or even that they are wrong or unreasonable.


So, if he was a female would it be a test?


----------



## Deejo

And in the spirit of the thread, no, I do not sh!t test women.

I do think that most relationships can benefit, particularly in terms of discovering, and respecting one another's boundaries, by incorporating a bit of friction.

I want a woman that will stand up for herself, and importantly, stand up for the relationship.

I'm presuming she wants the same.

I'll never quite understand why everyone tags what appear to be absolutely mundane circumstances in relationships, as 'games'.

And the connotation is generally that games are bad.

Flirting is a game.

Banter is a game.

Seducing one another is a game.

Loving your partner can be a wonderfully fun game.

Undermining and being disrespectful to your partner can be a terribly hurtful game.

People play games.

All of them.

The people who insist they don't play games are playing the game of self delusion.  

Can't tell you how many dates I've been on where I've heard the words, I don't play games, I don't like games. Those words almost always come from someone who has been hurt.

And if you want to play in the game of love, then you need to accept the possibility that your heart is going to get a few scrapes along the way.

Fitness or sh!t tests ... at least as always discussed in context here on TAM, are about comfort building.

I suppose I can see a man engaging in behavior where he hopes that his female partner demonstrates behavior that makes HIM feel more secure about the relationship.

But as is often the case, on both sides of the gender divide, there is a point where the jabs, comments, and abuse have nothing whatsoever to do with comfort building. It's about breaking things down. Breaking the person down, and thereby convincing yourself that they aren't worthy of your time, respect, or love.

If you are left feeling worn down and constantly disrespected ... those aren't sh!t tests.


----------



## Deejo

firebelly1 said:


> Ok, that helps to clarify. But the sample you're giving as a sh*t test I would characterize as passive aggressiveness / martyr type behavior. Same thing?


So in the example that is a sh!t test, the presumption is she is already fed up with her husband and simply wants to further destabilize the relationship ...

or ...


What she is feeling is more like the last case. She was worried and looking for support and reassurance from her partner ... but she expresses it by challenging him.


----------



## Deejo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'll move this here
> 
> 
> So, if he was a female would it be a test?


Handled with deft precision by you, I would add.

And yes, I think you can swap the roles absolutely and it is a test.

You illustrated it pretty perfectly. What could have been a blow out with hurt feelings on both sides, instead ends with a fixed pipe, and two people ready to lay some new pipe. (Couldn't resist the analogy)

Being able to diffuse or shift the outcome of what starts off as a potentially negative exchange is EXACTLY the nature of a fitness test as I see it.

Two pissed off people = fail

One person holding their boundary, and the other feeling resentful = Win/Lose (You telling him to F off and do it himself) This is still an acceptable outcome to plenty of folks.

Two people ending up smiling, laughing, hugging or more? Pass Win/Win


----------



## Faithful Wife

The idea of sh*t tests came from men who wanted to think that ONLY women do these types of behaviors...but of course men are above it or more logical or whatever.

But both men and women do it, and I have dated both men and women. It is in equal measure, many times for the exact same reasons. It basically boils down to this: PROVE you like/love me by passing this test which I will not tell you how to pass. If you pass it, for now I will believe you like me. If you don't, I will probably test you again.

There are thousands of ways any given individual may apply this test to someone they are dating or in a relationship with.

It is just laughable to me that any man thinks it is something only women do.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> The idea of sh*t tests came from men who wanted to think that ONLY women do these types of behaviors...but of course men are above it or more logical or whatever.
> 
> But both men and women do it, and I have dated both men and women. It is in equal measure, many times for the exact same reasons. It basically boils down to this: PROVE you like/love me by passing this test which I will not tell you how to pass. If you pass it, for now I will believe you like me. If you don't, I will probably test you again.
> 
> There are thousands of ways any given individual may apply this test to someone they are dating or in a relationship with.
> 
> It is just laughable to me that any man thinks it is something only women do.


I'm down with that. I actually really liked SGC's pipe example.

Let's face it, we could call sh!t testing; creative conflict resolution, game playing, manipulation, or emotive transactional instruments ...

It's a thing.

I wasn't sure if men would express them in the same way a woman would. As the result of folks posts and responses, I understand that they do.

Still don't think they are the same as just crappy disrespectful behavior though.


----------



## Blondilocks

Having read this entire thing, I can honestly say 1) I'm still clueless about the true definition of a 'fitness test'. That said some people may have hidden motives in their requests/demands and some people may be genuinely unaware of their hidden motive. 2) I have a headache.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Deejo said:


> Handled with deft and precision by you, I would add.
> 
> And yes, I think you can swap the roles absolutely and it is a test.
> 
> You illustrated it pretty perfectly. What could have been a blow out with hurt feelings on both sides, instead ends with a fixed pipe, and two people ready to lay some new pipe. (Couldn't resist the analogy)
> 
> Being able to diffuse or shift the outcome of what starts off as a potentially negative exchange is EXACTLY the nature of a fitness test as I see it.
> 
> Two pissed off people = fail
> 
> One person holding their boundary, and the other feeling resentful = Win/Lose (You telling him to F off and do it himself) This is still an acceptable outcome to plenty of folks.
> 
> Two people ending up smiling, laughing, hugging or more? Pass Win/Win


I likely wouldn't have even thought twice about it had it not been for these threads. I actually had to get up to do it right after posting something so it was fresh in my mind. I stopped myself and thought how would I want him to treat me in this situation and acted that way. Test or not, the discussions helped to find new ways of dealing with situations 

I just don't understand why the same kind of situation would be viewed as a testing in hopes of proving your H's manhood/leadership (which many women don't want leadership either but that's another discussion) instead of just being frustrated, bad at communication, being an ass, etc.
Why is it suddenly manipulation when it's a female?


----------



## Deejo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I just don't understand why the same kind of situation would be viewed as a testing in hopes of proving your H's manhood/leadership (which many women don't want leadership either but that's another discussion) instead of just being frustrated, bad at communication, being an ass, etc.
> Why is it suddenly manipulation when it's a female?



Could very well be those things. In which case, how the man chooses to handle the circumstance STILL matters.

I'll give a very personal example, and it was by no means a sh!t test, but certainly emphasizes your point about how we choose to communicate and it's outcome on the interaction.

I had to catch a flight on a Monday afternoon. Was of course feeling a bit of stress about getting to the airport, etc. 

I couldn't find my keys. My time window was rapidly shrinking. I have ADD. I was feeling very dumb, and very anxious and angry. 

I looked everywhere. Couldn't find them. Had chewed up 30 minutes. I was flat out losing it.

I called my ex wife. Looking back, I can't even tell you why I called her, other than I felt helpless at that moment. I explained what was going on, how angry at myself I was, and that I simply didn't know what to do.

She could have laughed, she could have mocked me, she could have told me to F off. But instead she remained very calm, and talked me through the entire time that I had dropped off the kids to her the night before, up to my trying to leave that morning.

In that moment she was my light-house. Found my keys with her help and support. "Glad I could help. Travel safe." That was what she said. Nothing snide. Nothing condescending or demeaning.

She was wonderful. I'll never forget it. Just as you mentioned about how you would feel if your husband responded poorly to you with a request.

How we choose to respond matters. And it can have a tremendous impact on how the other person feels about the interaction and the relationship overall.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening slowlygoingcrazy
Is the situation symmetric? Do you "listen and give in"?

In a relationship it is inevitable that people will disagree on things and where each will be convinced that they are correct. The question is how to resolve those cases. 

Would you really respect him if he always did what you wanted, or you you just think of him as a doormat? (honest question).




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Well I am here partly because despite saying what I want, I don't get it. He doesn't budge, doesn't give in. If he'd just listen and do, we would be good. Respect would be gained, love would be restored and I'd be happy to meet his needs.
> 
> I often worry about if H ever joined TAM because the advice he might get would be the opposite of what I want and I worry about if the wives of the men here want the advice as well.
> 
> IMO- playing games is dangerous. What women want, what men want and what women think men want and what men think women want does not always match up. I used to be in a 99% women forum, for Mothers mainly. The talk there about what women want and say is vastly different from what the men seem to hear that they are wanting and saying. It's no wonder there are so many problems!
> 
> I just can't get behind the idea that women are as manipulative and complicated as you make it seem. Most of us really do simply mean what we say so IMO, that answer should be assumed WAY before the idea that it might be a test should be.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Deejo said:


> How we choose to respond matters. And it can have a tremendous impact on how the other person feels about the interaction and the relationship overall.


I agree with this.



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening slowlygoingcrazy
> Is the situation symmetric? Do you "listen and give in"?
> 
> In a relationship it is inevitable that people will disagree on things and where each will be convinced that they are correct. The question is how to resolve those cases.
> 
> Would you really respect him if he always did what you wanted, or you you just think of him as a doormat? (honest question).


I used to listen and give in to 100% of what he said. Now it's about 90% and that's because I gave him ultimatums that I am now sticking to - after listening and giving in for years. 

If we disagree, it depends on what it is. Ideally a compromise would be made. Sometimes emotion would be more important, sometimes logic. 

Would I respect him if he listened and gave in? Hell yes. If I can do it for him, he can do it for me. I pick my battles, I wouldn't ask for anything that wasn't important to me in some way so everything he'd say yes to would be for a reason, a need I was trying to get met. 

IMO a man becomes a doormat when the woman takes advantage of him being nice. So for me to see H as a doormat, I would have had to be treating him poorly first. After seeing the other end of the spectrum, I wouldn't take nice for granted therefore it would never get to the doormat stage. KWIM?


----------



## Deejo

The purpose of understanding the dynamic of testing is that if you respond 'nicely' to less than nice behavior, you reinforce the notion that your partner doesn't have to deal with you respectfully, in fact you actually encourage further bad behavior by rewarding less than excellent behavior.

Seems painfully simple, yet it is easy to overlook when the circumstances aren't someone grossly mistreating the other person.

Doormat behavior fosters doormat treatment. If you neither command nor demonstrate high value and insist on respect, especially when it is being willfully stomped on, you can blame your partner, and you should take the blame for enabling it.

That's why understanding boundaries, respect, attraction, and 'testing' whether people think it exists or not, is important.


----------



## Wolf1974

Deejo said:


> "Hey listen, I've got to pick up Susie from school, she's sick, do you think you can leave work early and run the grocery and pharmacy?"
> 
> - Not a sh!t test
> 
> "You want to know why dinner isn't ready? Because Suzie puked at school, I had to pick her up and go to the clinic, which means I didn't get to go shopping or cook. If you had taken the time to call, you wouldn't have to ask."
> 
> - Covert Contract
> 
> 
> "Do you care about your family at all? Your daughter came home sick today. Did you know that?"
> 
> - Sh!t Test
> 
> 
> "Suzie was really sick at school today. I was worried. I needed you."
> 
> - Straight expression of feelings





No way


----------



## FrenchFry

All the time. In fact, the proclamation from men that they do not **** test is in fact, a **** test.


----------



## FrenchFry

Your pipe story made me laugh. The fight sounds oddly familiar.



> Also- how common do you think sh*t testing is for women? I've never heard of the idea before TAM.


I think it's common for some women. I think some men are more drawn to the women who are prone to **** testing than others--therefore they have the perspective that all women ****-test.


----------



## Thundarr

FrenchFry said:


> I think it's common for some women. I think some men are more drawn to the women who are prone to **** testing than others--therefore they have the perspective that all women ****-test.


Men labelled a dynamic as sh!t test and that's the jist of it. I'm sure women's self help material labels almost the same things but they call it bulldozing or PA or something else.

From what I seen, a lot of reading material (for both genders) boils down to fundamentals like confidence, boundaries, etc. The problem is that when people don't get the core message, they have to fall back on examples and try to fake it until they make it. I'm becoming more and more certain that character and self worth can't be faked though and that's the underlying problem for many reading self help stuff.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thundarr said:


> Men labelled a dynamic as sh!t test and that's the jist of it. * I'm sure women's self help material labels almost the same things but they call it bulldozing or PA or something else.*
> 
> From what I seen, a lot of reading material (for both genders) boils down to fundamentals like confidence, boundaries, etc. The problem is that when people don't get the core message, they have to fall back on examples and try to fake it until they make it. I'm becoming more and more certain that character and self worth can't be faked though and that's the underlying problem for many reading self help stuff.


In the book Bridget Jones' Diary, she calls it f*ckwittage.


----------



## Thundarr

Faithful Wife said:


> In the book Bridget Jones' Diary, she calls it f*ckwittage.


Ha thank you. Very good example. From Urban Dictionary:



> Used first in Bridget Jones' Diary, it has now become a synonym for the mindgames men play when dating. It can also be applied to women in rare cases.
> It can be preceded by "emotional" to make it about manipulating emotions or just plain "****wittage"
> Girl 1: Oh Dan said he loved me but he's not ready for a relationship
> Girl 2: That's just emotional ****wittage. Get out of the relationship!


----------



## heartsbeating

GettingIt said:


> There seems to be some comfort to be had for men in developing an approach when they feel they are being presented with this sort of behavior.
> 
> It actually was a boon to my marriage when I came to understand that my husband would react to behavior of mine that he didn't value or understand by processing it as a "sh!t test." It allowed me the opportunity to try to re-communicate in a way that he could value/understand OR to allow him to go ahead and do what he had to do in order not to sink into pissiness.


I love what you wrote here. 

I've only reached this point in the thread so far and still understanding what fitness tests are about however I have become more aware of the way my husband uses humor to respond to me at times.

Case in point, the other day, he was making lunch for all of us and looking at what was in the fridge when, from my comfy position of the couch, I asked 'ooh can you please bring me a mineral water?' He responded in a funny way about me having legs and being capable of getting up. I laughed and gave pause and said 'You're absolutely right!'. I wouldn't view it a test rather just me being lazy and inconsiderate to him. I can't think of him acting that way with me. I got up and then offered him a drink too.

He pushes my buttons at times though. I can't think of an example but he knows I'm calling him out in a light-hearted way when I refer to him as Bruce Wayne. It doesn't happen often but he's paused and said, 'Yep I'm being a d!ck, sorry.' 

The morning when he knew I wasn't feeling so good and I asked him to walk the dogs instead? Well, that was me not feeling so good and asking for his help. It wasn't a test. He woke me after walking the dogs and with a cup of tea in hand - and I felt heard and cared for. 

Healthy communication, being upfront and assertive is where it's at though. I think there's room for humor and body language to communicate on lesser things though. At least, that's my take on things at the moment.


----------



## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> In that moment she was my light-house. Found my keys with her help and support. "Glad I could help. Travel safe." That was what she said. Nothing snide. Nothing condescending or demeaning.
> 
> She was wonderful. I'll never forget it. Just as you mentioned about how you would feel if your husband responded poorly to you with a request.
> 
> How we choose to respond matters. And it can have a tremendous impact on how the other person feels about the interaction and the relationship overall.


Nice.

Where were your keys?


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Deejo said:


> I'll give a very personal example..... ......I called my ex wife. Looking back, I can't even tell you why I called her, other than I felt helpless at that moment. .....
> 
> ......How we choose to respond matters. And it can have a tremendous impact on how the other person feels about the interaction and the relationship overall.


Deejo, how long have you been divorced and was there infidelity? Just curious because if I had told that same story in my thread on LAD, I would have been 2x4ed to death by the guys in there. That I shouldn't be asking for help from my ex no matter what. 

Or if the shoe was on the other foot (ex wife called me asking for help with her keys), it would have been "Tell that cheating ho (which she is) to F off. You're divorced for a reason"

I've always tried to err on the side of cool, calm, non aggressive responses, but not necessarily outright offered to help either. 

I suppose it depends on the circumstances as usual, which is why I asked about how long and if yours had infidelity Deejo. I do not have to co-parent with my ex at all (other than letting her talk to D8 when she occasionally calls) now that she moved away. 

Sorry for the thread jack.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Divorced parents like Deejo who don't end up hating each other and dragging their kids through hell are the hope of the future. I know a divorce can't always be amicable, but when it is and there are children, the children _always_ do much better in life. My hat is off to Deejo for still being a decent human being at the end of a very rough road.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Faithful Wife said:


> Divorced parents like Deejo who don't end up hating each other and dragging their kids through hell are the hope of the future. I know a divorce can't always be amicable, but when it is and there are children, the children _always_ do much better in life. My hat is off to Deejo for still being a decent human being at the end of a very rough road.


Same here, that wasn't a slam against him. More of a "depends on your situation" response.


----------



## UsernameHere

Yes we do S**t test and for good reason, to confirm our sposes intentions


----------



## Deejo

TheGoodGuy said:


> Deejo, how long have you been divorced and was there infidelity? Just curious because if I had told that same story in my thread on LAD, I would have been 2x4ed to death by the guys in there. That I shouldn't be asking for help from my ex no matter what.
> 
> Or if the shoe was on the other foot (ex wife called me asking for help with her keys), it would have been "Tell that cheating ho (which she is) to F off. You're divorced for a reason"
> 
> I've always tried to err on the side of cool, calm, non aggressive responses, but not necessarily outright offered to help either.
> 
> I suppose it depends on the circumstances as usual, which is why I asked about how long and if yours had infidelity Deejo. I do not have to co-parent with my ex at all (other than letting her talk to D8 when she occasionally calls) now that she moved away.
> 
> Sorry for the thread jack.


Moved out in 08. Divorced for 3 years. Yes there was infidelity. Infidelity was not the reason for the divorce.

I'm not remotely the same man I was over 6 years ago ... when I first came to TAM. She is not remotely the same woman. We have 2 young children. We treat our relationship as a business relationship. It is positive and respectful. That wasn't the case on either side, prior to the divorce.

Hate and anger take an awful lot of energy to hang onto. They are corrosive. 

Today, if I were in the presence of anyone that chose to call my ex-wife a 'wh0re', they would regret it ... very quickly.

Nothing is static. Not the really good times. Not the really bad times. Circumstances change. People change ... or they resist change, at their detriment.

Happy, safe, kids, she's in a very healthy relationship and lives with a good man. She and I have a very cooperative relationship. 

I've been in ... lots of very healthy relationships, but none yet that I'm ready to settle down. 

I know a sh!t test from a math test, and I'm glad for it. I do far better at the sh!t tests ...


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

heartsbeating said:


> Case in point, the other day, he was making lunch for all of us and looking at what was in the fridge when, from my comfy position of the couch, I asked 'ooh can you please bring me a mineral water?' He responded in a funny way about me having legs and being capable of getting up. I laughed and gave pause and said 'You're absolutely right!'. I wouldn't view it a test rather just me being lazy and inconsiderate to him. *I can't think of him acting that way with me.* I got up and then offered him a drink too.




I can't even count the number of times I have gone out of my way to bring or get something for H, at least once a day. He will ask me to grab him something that's in the kitchen while HE is in the kitchen and I am not. He's woken me up to go get him something several times. So, if I asked him to bring me a water while he was up and he didn't it would be a big deal. 

But even in my ideal relationship I would want to be able to ask him to grab me a water if he was up, and for him to be able to ask me too. Even if I wanted something that might be a little more "princessy" I'd want him to do it, knowing I would reciprocate the favour in a way he wanted. Those kinds of things say love to me. Doing _more _for each other to balance it out, not less KWIM?


----------



## GettingIt_2

Deejo said:


> Nothing is static. Not the really good times. Not the really bad times. Circumstances change. People change ... or they resist change, at their detriment.


Can we put this somewhere as the official motto of TAM? 

There is NOTHING more important for folks to understand about marriage.


----------



## Deejo

heartsbeating said:


> Nice.
> 
> Where were your keys?


In the door coming into the house. The trigger was when she asked me if I was carrying anything when I went into the house.


----------



## Deejo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I can't even count the number of times I have gone out of my way to bring or get something for H, at least once a day. He will ask me to grab him something that's in the kitchen while HE is in the kitchen and I am not. He's woken me up to go get him something several times. So, if I asked him to bring me a water while he was up and he didn't it would be a big deal.
> 
> But even in my ideal relationship I would want to be able to ask him to grab me a water if he was up, and for him to be able to ask me too. Even if I wanted something that might be a little more "princessy" I'd want him to do it, knowing I would reciprocate the favour in a way he wanted. Those kinds of things say love to me. Doing _more _for each other to balance it out, not less KWIM?



Of course we know what you mean. Can you acknowledge that in many relationships that doing more actually equates to getting less?

Start saying no, to hubs instead of yes thinking you are being loving and wonderful but only come to resent the fact he didn't do it his damn self in the first place.

AS Hearts pointed out, and I can tell you unequivocally in my case, I use humor to diffuse or shift the dynamic of almost every untoward or off the wall request that comes my way. She isn't left feeling belittled or manipulated, she's smiling, laughing, or affectionate.

Occasionally, if you are talking about a hard boundary, the other person isn't going to like your response ... and that should be ok too.

Sets the stage for aggressive make up sex.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Deejo said:


> Start saying no, to hubs instead of yes thinking you are being loving and wonderful but only come to resent the fact he didn't do it his damn self in the first place.


I like doing things for a loved one, it makes me happy to give. The less I do the less love I feel. The resentment comes from his not reciprocating, not me doing. I'll do anything/everything he asks and I'll be happy as long as I get the same respect in return.

Me doing less would not fix my issues, I don't want to do less. I'll settle for that, for now, if that's all I can get. Mostly because I just don't feel love anymore so I might as well feel single. But ultimately I want a partner- either him or someone new- who I can do all these things for and have him give to me in return. 

Part of the issue is that his LL is words of affirmation and mine is acts of service. So I do things and he tells me how amazing I am. It just doesn't work.

But I think blanket statements like "all women sh*t test" are dangerous because not all women are the same, not all women want the same things. There is so much more to it than that. Every example of a sh*t test could mean something completely different depending on the woman who is saying it. It's too hard to judge what she really means unless you are that woman at that moment.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

That's definitely the difference. My ex is remarried but she's also chosen not to parent (other than phone calls) by moving 800 miles away. And she's not in what I would call a good relationship, or a good place in life. I'm very glad it does happen for some though.


Deejo said:


> Moved out in 08. Divorced for 3 years. Yes there was infidelity. Infidelity was not the reason for the divorce.
> 
> I'm not remotely the same man I was over 6 years ago ... when I first came to TAM. She is not remotely the same woman. We have 2 young children. We treat our relationship as a business relationship. It is positive and respectful. That wasn't the case on either side, prior to the divorce.
> 
> Hate and anger take an awful lot of energy to hang onto. They are corrosive.
> 
> Today, if I were in the presence of anyone that chose to call my ex-wife a 'wh0re', they would regret it ... very quickly.
> 
> Nothing is static. Not the really good times. Not the really bad times. Circumstances change. People change ... or they resist change, at their detriment.
> 
> Happy, safe, kids, she's in a very healthy relationship and lives with a good man. She and I have a very cooperative relationship.
> 
> I've been in ... lots of very healthy relationships, but none yet that I'm ready to settle down.
> 
> I know a sh!t test from a math test, and I'm glad for it. I do far better at the sh!t tests ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I like doing things for a loved one, it makes me happy to give. The less I do the less love I feel. The resentment comes from his not reciprocating, not me doing. I'll do anything/everything he asks and I'll be happy as long as I get the same respect in return.
> 
> Me doing less would not fix my issues, I don't want to do less. I'll settle for that, for now, if that's all I can get. Mostly because I just don't feel love anymore so I might as well feel single. But ultimately I want a partner- either him or someone new- who I can do all these things for and have him give to me in return.
> 
> Part of the issue is that his LL is words of affirmation and mine is acts of service. So I do things and he tells me how amazing I am. It just doesn't work.
> 
> But I think blanket statements like "all women sh*t test" are dangerous because not all women are the same, not all women want the same things. There is so much more to it than that. Every example of a sh*t test could mean something completely different depending on the woman who is saying it. It's too hard to judge what she really means unless you are that woman at that moment.



Regardless of whatever the hypothetical 'she' is saying is, if her partners response makes her feel less safe, less comfortable, and less attracted than she was prior to the event, then it was a sh!t test. And as a result of his or her, responding poorly, other tests or circumstances are likely to follow.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Deejo said:


> Regardless of whatever the hypothetical 'she' is saying is, if her partners response makes her feel less safe, less comfortable, and less attracted than she was prior to the event, then it was a sh!t test. And as a result of his or her, responding poorly, other tests or circumstances are likely to follow.


This part is what I've mostly seen missing from many sh*t test conversations. 

Usually it's 
-Get a sh*t test
-Respond in a MMSLP "man" way by ignoring it, laughing it off, making a joke, etc - don't be rude but NOT giving in (although I did read once that if you aren't being an *******, you are doing it wrong....) 
-Pass the test. 



When for many women that kind of response to a communication of a want or need would be met with her feeling _less safe, less comfortable, and less attracted than she was prior to the event_. 
So it's completely individual. 

I see more examples here of how giving in to your spouse can be the answer but I'm not sure that option is preached about enough. For men who are unsure of their partner's feelings and wants, any kind of blanket "all women sh*t test, here's what you should do when she does....." is just dangerous. 

Unless you know the tester well enough to know what she is wanting it's impossible to give an answer on how to respond to tests. 

Look even at all the "Is this unreasonable" threads on TAM, it's almost always divided. So first you'd have to determine what is and isn't reasonable for you and your spouse, then how each wants those situations dealt with and then go from there based on each individual relationship, not a set man/woman thing.


----------



## Deejo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This part is what I've mostly seen missing from many sh*t test conversations.
> 
> Usually it's
> -Get a sh*t test
> -Respond in a MMSLP "man" way by ignoring it, laughing it off, making a joke, etc - don't be rude but NOT giving in (although I did read once that if you aren't being an *******, you are doing it wrong....)
> -Pass the test.
> 
> 
> 
> When for many women that kind of response to a communication of a want or need would be met with her feeling _less safe, less comfortable, and less attracted than she was prior to the event_.
> So it's completely individual.
> 
> I see more examples here of how giving in to your spouse can be the answer but I'm not sure that option is preached about enough. For men who are unsure of their partner's feelings and wants, any kind of blanket "all women sh*t test, here's what you should do when she does....." is just dangerous.
> 
> Unless you know the tester well enough to know what she is wanting it's impossible to give an answer on how to respond to tests.
> 
> Look even at all the "Is this unreasonable" threads on TAM, it's almost always divided. So first you'd have to determine what is and isn't reasonable for you and your spouse, then how each wants those situations dealt with and then go from there based on each individual relationship, not a set man/woman thing.



Looks like we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

I want my partner to feel safe, supported, and be attracted to me.

I don't want those things at the expense of my self esteem and self respect.

If she takes tone with me in a manner that she wouldn't possibly tolerate herself, you can bet I'm coming down on that like thunder ... or I'm going to laugh it off. I'm going to respond in a manner I feel good about at that point ... how she feels about it becomes immaterial. 

Don't reward bad behavior. Goes for either gender.

I say all of the time around here, context is everything. I'm thinking that is something we can agree on.


----------



## Deejo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I can't even count the number of times I have gone out of my way to bring or get something for H, at least once a day. He will ask me to grab him something that's in the kitchen while HE is in the kitchen and I am not. He's woken me up to go get him something several times. So, if I asked him to bring me a water while he was up and he didn't it would be a big deal.
> 
> But even in my ideal relationship I would want to be able to ask him to grab me a water if he was up, and for him to be able to ask me too. Even if I wanted something that might be a little more "princessy" I'd want him to do it, knowing I would reciprocate the favour in a way he wanted. Those kinds of things say love to me. Doing _more _for each other to balance it out, not less KWIM?


So here is my question; if you knew via clairvoyance or whatever ... that every time you did something that YOU believed was nice for your husband whether he asked or not, actually made him love you LESS, would you continue doing it?

You seem to be saying that trying harder, doing more, communicating more, giving more ... is an avenue to a stronger relationship.

And that is certainly the case for 2 people that are still attracted to, and respect one another. But if respect bleeds out? Doing more, giving more actually reinforces that your love comes cheap, and therefore isn't terribly valuable.

That is the very dynamic that a lot of guys come here with. They THINK they are being wonderful, but their spouses behavior and attention indicates anything but that.


----------



## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> AS Hearts pointed out, and I can tell you unequivocally in my case, I use humor to diffuse or shift the dynamic of almost every untoward or off the wall request that comes my way. She isn't left feeling belittled or manipulated, she's smiling, laughing, or affectionate.


Exactly.

Context is also important here. And I'll add that if he happened to just be getting a drink from the fridge, he'd more than likely be offering me one before I could even ask. I still feel loved and cared for when he calls me out.


----------



## heartsbeating

He was a bit shirty this morning. Context... we have a house guest (my mother) currently visiting. After he'd come back down from having breakfast, I could tell his patience was already wearing thin. She had shared all her ailments with him and why she hadn't slept well. I'm used to it. He likes quiet space in the morning and found it all a bit much. That sets the scene for you. 

We're adjusting to a new morning routine. I drive him to the train station. He was running tight on time so, being the fabulous wife that I am, ensured the car was warmed and reversed out of the garage, ready and waiting for him in the driveway. After a few minutes, I sent him a text that I was outside. Then I saw him inside looking flustered. I called and asked what he needed. He got into the car and was annoyed. 

He'd been looking for me for the last 10 minutes. I replied that I'd only been outside for about 5 minutes. He responded that because the garage door was shut, he didn't know I'd got the car out and he'd been looking for me in the garden, around the house... [cut to the chase, this was only going to become a stupid tiff or one of us shutting down] ....so after he'd expressed why he was looking for me, and allowing for a pause, with an upbeat tone I replied _You're welcome! What a considerate wife to get the car ready and waiting for you to help you be at the station on time_. 

He laughed. 

When I got back home, I dealt with the reason why he was looking for me and texted that I'd sorted it and wished him a good day. He said it meant a lot to know I'd done that and thanked me for helping him get to work on time. Eh, we all have these moments.


----------



## Deejo

heartsbeating said:


> He was a bit shirty this morning. Context... we have a house guest (my mother) currently visiting. After he'd come back down from having breakfast, I could tell his patience was already wearing thin. She had shared all her ailments with him and why she hadn't slept well. I'm used to it. He likes quiet space in the morning and found it all a bit much. That sets the scene for you.
> 
> We're adjusting to a new morning routine. I drive him to the train station. He was running tight on time so, being the fabulous wife that I am, ensured the car was warmed and reversed out of the garage, ready and waiting for him in the driveway. After a few minutes, I sent him a text that I was outside. Then I saw him inside looking flustered. I called and asked what he needed. He got into the car and was annoyed.
> 
> He'd been looking for me for the last 10 minutes. I replied that I'd only been outside for about 5 minutes. He responded that because the garage door was shut, he didn't know I'd got the car out and he'd been looking for me in the garden, around the house... [cut to the chase, this was only going to become a stupid tiff or one of us shutting down] ....so after he'd expressed why he was looking for me, and allowing for a pause, with an upbeat tone I replied _You're welcome! What a considerate wife to get the car ready and waiting for you to help you be at the station on time_.
> 
> He laughed.
> 
> When I got back home, I dealt with the reason why he was looking for me and texted that I'd sorted it and wished him a good day. He said it meant a lot to know I'd done that and thanked me for helping him get to work on time. Eh, we all have these moments.


Separate your finances, install a keylogger, and demand his passwords.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Deejo said:


> So here is my question; if you knew via clairvoyance or whatever ... that every time you did something that YOU believed was nice for your husband whether he asked or not, actually made him love you LESS, would you continue doing it?
> 
> You seem to be saying that trying harder, doing more, communicating more, giving more ... is an avenue to a stronger relationship.
> 
> And that is certainly the case for 2 people that are still attracted to, and respect one another. But if respect bleeds out? Doing more, giving more actually reinforces that your love comes cheap, and therefore isn't terribly valuable.
> 
> That is the very dynamic that a lot of guys come here with. They THINK they are being wonderful, but their spouses behavior and attention indicates anything but that.


I agree that this is the case for some couples but I think this dynamic is assumed too often. Sometimes, as mean as it sounds, when some guys THINK they are being wonderful and their spouses behaviour and actions indicate they are not- it's because they aren't. They aren't doing as much as they think they are, they aren't meeting the important needs. It's really hard to tell. Sometimes what looks like lack of respect and attraction is a WAW who got sick of saying the same things over and over again and gave up, sometimes it's a Mother who is too tired for sex and needs more help. Sometimes it _is _a nice guy who is being taken advantage of, but not always.
Give all 3 men the advice to do less and 2/3 of them just made it worse. 

My typically rational and mentally sound H would say he could be a *little* better with helping with the chores and some other areas but overall he meets my needs and is a good and nice spouse. rofl

Even if that is the problem, you get different solutions depending on where you look. Personally I usually prefer Dr. Harley's stuff to the MMSLP/NNMNG stuff.

For me, I already have stopped some things for my own sanity. Would I stop it all if I knew he was loving me less because of it? I don't know. I've thought about it a lot. I doubt I could even if I tried.


----------



## Nynaeve

I'm still not sure if I understand what a sh*t test is but I think maybe I have an example of my brother-in-law doing one. Either that, or he's just an a**.

We were having a family get-together for my husband's birthday. My sister and her husband, my parents, aunt and uncle and cousins, me, my husband and our kids. We were having dinner and the food was set out, serve yourself. Some people were sitting at the table in the kitchen, some of us in the dining room, etc. With dinner we had chips and dip.

Okay, so my brother-in-law gets his food and instead of spooning some chip dip onto his plate, he grabs the whole bowl of dip and brings into the dining room and sets it beside his plate. A few minutes later, my mom comes in looking for the dip and grabs it and puts it back on the counter so everyone else can get some. Not long after that, my BIL reaches over to my sister's plate and starts dipping his chips in her dip. She asks him what he's doing and he says "well, you let them take the dip away so I have to eat yours." It was kind of a half-joking tone. My sister looked annoyed but didn't say anything more or do anything. 

Not long after that, my sister says "where's my fork?" She looks at her husband and then says "did you steal my fork?" He says that yes, he did. She asks how she's supposed to eat her food and he says "you can get up and get another one."

My sister didn't say anything but she looked embarrassed. I couldn't keep my mouth shut at that point and told him he could get his own fork. And he said something about it being a joke. I said that was a matter of opinion and he said to my sister "she doesn't think it's funny." And I didn't say anything more. But my sister did not get another fork and did not finish her meal.


So... was my BIL giving my sister some sh*t tests? Or is he just an a**?


----------



## Deejo

Ass. Not a sh!t test.


----------



## IvyGirl

Can you elaborate on why it's not a sh!t test? I'm still confused.


----------



## Deejo

Because no where in that scenario was Nynaeve's BIL looking to test the relationship or commitment from her sister.

He thought he was being funny. And he was alone in that perception. 

He behaved poorly, little else.

Now ... if she had taken his plate off the table, and brought it to the kids table, or even better, put on the floor next to the dog or cat food, and said, "You want to behave like a child/animal, then you can eat with them."
Then we've got something.

And I would have applauded her.


----------



## IvyGirl

So if he had done this looking for validation of where her limits were, how much sh!t she would take, would it have been a test then? If she had put her foot down, and he felt more secure knowing where their relationship stood?


----------



## norajane

IvyGirl said:


> So if he had done this looking for validation of where her limits were, how much sh!t she would take, would it have been a test then? If she had put her foot down, and he felt more secure knowing where their relationship stood?


I'm not sure how one would tell the difference. How would his behavior or what he said be any different if it were a sh*t test rather than being an ass?

I've read this whole thread, and still don't get it.


----------



## IvyGirl

Here's what I'm getting from this -
The sh!t test is in the eye of the beholder, according to what they THINK is going on is their partner's head. This also explains why men say we do it and we say we don't. 

Guy's perspective:
"She is asking me for something unreasonable. I don't understand why she wants this. This must be a test. I will stand my ground."
"I stood my ground, now she's backed down. She's not arguing anymore. I think she now feels happy and validated, because she stopped. I did a good job!!"

Woman's perspective:
"I'm asking him for this, and he clearly doesn't want to give it. I think it's fair to ask, this is important to me!"
"He's clearly not going to give me what I want. I'm tired of this, I give up. He's an a** and I'm not gonna win this."

I think many men who say their women sh!t test may end up with Walk Away Wives. He's thinking "she's happy, she's not arguing anymore!" She's thinking "I'm just gonna smile at him to keep the peace while I plan my escape."

The problem with the idea of the sh!t test is that it almost always assumes the one partner knows what the other is thinking. And history shows that neither sex is really great at figuring out what's going on in the other's head.

In most of the cases on the men's board where they say they passed the test, I sincerely doubt their wife ever said, "I was just testing you, you passed! I feel more secure now." The husband assumed this was the case, for whatever reason.

Ladies, does this sound about right?


----------



## ocotillo

Adolescent daughters thrive on sh!t testing their father. At least mine did. I've never seen this behavior in a grown woman, but I suppose it could happen. 

What would be a corresponding behavior in men?


----------



## IvyGirl

Teenage boys test their moms. Ask any of my five brothers. 
Anyway, adolescents are a separate species, lol. Not a very safe comparison.


----------



## Deejo

IvyGirl said:


> I think many men who say their women sh!t test may end up with Walk Away Wives. He's thinking "she's happy, she's not arguing anymore!" She's thinking "I'm just gonna smile at him to keep the peace while I plan my escape."
> 
> The problem with the idea of the sh!t test is that it almost always assumes the one partner knows what the other is thinking. And history shows that neither sex is really great at figuring out what's going on in the other's head.


And maybe they'll both be better off when she does walk.



IvyGirl said:


> In most of the cases on the men's board where they say they passed the test, I sincerely doubt their wife ever said, "I was just testing you, you passed! I feel more secure now." The husband assumed this was the case, for whatever reason.
> 
> Ladies, does this sound about right?


I sincerely hope they agree with you. In the interim, I'll just keep doing what I do.

So tell me, is your husband dependable, honorable, honest, open, a loving partner? How do you know he is? How do you know he isn't?


Keep in mind this question on both forums is basically being asked in a poisoned well.

Men in healthy, happy relationships are not encouraged to look for sh!t tests and start rejecting every request their spouse makes.

Conversely, a woman reads about sh!t testing in the mens forum and can't understand why men are being encouraged to alienate their wives ... likely because they themselves feel somewhat alienated from their partner. 

Alienating and manipulating your partner isn't the goal. It isn't even really part of the equation.

And if you think it is, then I clearly see why folks don't get it.


----------



## Thundarr

Nynaeve said:


> So... was my BIL giving my sister some sh*t tests? Or is he just an a**?





> Urban dictionary defines sh*t test as;
> A test that a girl performs on a male by saying or doing something to judge the reaction or response from him.


I assume a sh*t test is more than just being a jerk or b!tch and it's more than boundaries and respect. It's those things but there's additional motive or need for the antagonizer to see a response they respect. Your BIL acted like a jerk either on purpose or because he's not as funny as he thinks. Whether it was a sh!t test or just rude depends on his intent. The concept is fuzzy anyway so who knows.

I don't buy into accidental tests so much but I do think people think about poor reactions in hindsight and lose respect. It's the common principle of teaching others how to treat us. To me these are patterns of disrespect and resentment more than actual tests.


----------



## Deejo

Thundarr said:


> To me these are patterns of disrespect and resentment more than actual tests.


With this I absolutely agree, and is likely framed in terms far easier for people to digest.

We say it all the time around here, we teach others how to treat us.

If we don't like the treatment, it's time to teach them, and ourselves, something new.

Rewarding bad behavior just doesn't work ... ever. Doesn't work with kids, certainly doesn't work with adults.

I am never going to support an activity that pushes people apart. Not what I'm here for, nor what I'm about.

But ... I have a pretty good eye at this point for relationships that either need to be re-balanced or completely dissolved.


----------



## ocotillo

IvyGirl said:


> Teenage boys test their moms. Ask any of my five brothers.


All children test their parents almost from day one, but if I'm not mistaken, this colloquialism describes a particular brand of provocatory behavior. 

I can't imagine a young man loudly proclaiming, "I'm ugly" in a moment of frustration because that is the sort of emotional insecurity that will get him ridiculed by his friends and shunned by the opposite sex. 

But I guess it could happen.


----------



## Deejo

IvyGirl said:


> So if he had done this looking for validation of where her limits were, how much sh!t she would take, would it have been a test then? If she had put her foot down, and he felt more secure knowing where their relationship stood?


The behavior described in a room full of other people, and given how he responded to Nynaeve, tells me he wasn't looking for limit setting ... but without question, he certainly needed it.

Let's face it, if his wife had already developed a mechanism for short circuiting that kind of behavior from her husband by making it clear that it wasn't tolerable and was disrespectful, then that circumstance would never have even occurred.


----------



## IvyGirl

Haha, i agree. I was trying to feel out whether your definition relied on the intent of tester, or the interpretation of the tested. I think maybe both.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

So, man's POV

H and W both work, he helps her around the house, does all the outdoor work and a lot of the cooking, gives the kids a bath at night. She is always saying she's too tired and overwhelmed for sex. She is starting to get disrespectful and nagging me to do things.

You might see a man who is being too nice, too good and needs to do less, put his foot down and not bend to her disrespectful nagging to do more. His wife is sh*t testing him in hopes that he will be more of a leader and be strong. 

I might see a man who isn't doing nearly 50% of the housework or parenting and views it as helping HER which is disrespectful in itself. She tried explaining how she felt for a while without any resolve and is now angry and demanding he do more to meet her needs. He needs to listen to her or she'll eventually give up, shut up and start to plan her escape. 

The whole idea that a woman is upset in her relationship because he does TOO much and is TOO good of a husband just sounds like an ego thing. Like "huh, she didn't like that sex we had, my penis must be TOO big" Ya, it happens. Not as often as many men would think. 

Ask 100 men if they are doing enough or too much in their relationship and that is what is causing the resentment, anger and loss of desire from his wife and then ask their wives the same thing. You will get much different answers for most of them.


----------



## vellocet

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Maybe someone else can explain it better, I'm just learning what it means myself.
> 
> It's from MMSLP and I can't find any kind of official definition.
> 
> From what I can figure out, it's when one spouse makes an unreasonable* (*up for debate) request or passive agressive comment like "Why do I always have to remind you to take out the trash?" or "I hate that you load the dishwasher wrong. You don't know how to do it."


Ok, if this is sh*t testing, then no, I don't do it. I did have one relationship where a woman did this to me. She was shown the door.

You want me to do something, ask. You don't like the way I do things, ask, don't give me condescending questions to get your point across. You won't like the response.


----------



## Deejo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> So, man's POV
> 
> H and W both work, he helps her around the house, does all the outdoor work and a lot of the cooking, gives the kids a bath at night. She is always saying she's too tired and overwhelmed for sex. She is starting to get disrespectful and nagging me to do things.
> 
> You might see a man who is being too nice, too good and needs to do less, put his foot down and not bend to her disrespectful nagging to do more. His wife is sh*t testing him in hopes that he will be more of a leader and be strong.
> 
> I might see a man who isn't doing nearly 50% of the housework or parenting and views it as helping HER which is disrespectful in itself. She tried explaining how she felt for a while without any resolve and is now angry and demanding he do more to meet her needs. He needs to listen to her or she'll eventually give up, shut up and start to plan her escape.
> 
> The whole idea that a woman is upset in her relationship because he does TOO much and is TOO good of a husband just sounds like an ego thing. Like "huh, she didn't like that sex we had, my penis must be TOO big" Ya, it happens. Not as often as many men would think.
> 
> Ask 100 men if they are doing enough or too much in their relationship and that is what is causing the resentment, anger and loss of desire from his wife and then ask their wives the same thing. You will get much different answers for most of them.


What we have is a conflict of perspective.

I can relate to your story because I used to live it.

One of the most straightforward pieces of advice I give to either men or women that come here is to learn how to 'pay attention' to your relationship. And that can mean stepping out of your perspective and into theirs, or into a 3rd party perspective.

I'm not invested in the concept of proving whether or not fitness tests are real or valid. 

I am interested in being able to try and convey the dynamics surrounding interaction and communication between 2 people that at any given moment in an emotional transaction (and we have literally thousands of these every single day) you have the opportunity to bring your partner closer and make your relationship better, or to push them away and make the emotional space between you a little colder.

Frankly I don't care what we call the mechanisms. I'm interested in the outcomes.

So yes, I agree with you. He or she ... does need to listen. Basically, the scenario you outline about a walk away wife was exactly my circumstance. But ... the roles were reversed. I did the walking, because I wasn't being heard, acknowledged, nurtured, respected, loved.

It's toxic for either gender.

My watershed moment? (I've written about it before. And once again, no, this was not a sh!t test, on my part.)

I said to my wife, "We need to get back into counseling."

She literally, no exaggeration, rolled her eyes and said, "Why, because you don't think we have enough sex?" (One could certainly argue that her response was indeed a sh!t test. She thought that I was leveraging counseling to get laid ... and chose to minimize my reason or request over it.)

And I responded with, "No. So I can decide if I want to stay married to you."

She turned ashen and her jaw dropped. That moment was effectively the end of our marriage.


----------



## Anon Pink

Deejo said:


> What we have is a conflict of perspective.
> 
> I can relate to your story because I used to live it.
> 
> One of the most straightforward pieces of advice I give to either men or women that come here is to learn how to 'pay attention' to your relationship. And that can mean stepping out of your perspective and into theirs, or into a 3rd party perspective.
> 
> I'm not invested in the concept of proving whether or not fitness tests are real or valid.
> 
> I am interested in being able to try and convey the dynamics surrounding interaction and communication between 2 people that at any given moment in an emotional transaction (and we have literally thousands of these every single day) you have the opportunity to bring your partner closer and make your relationship better, or to push them away and make the emotional space between you a little colder.
> 
> Frankly I don't care what we call the mechanisms. I'm interested in the outcomes.
> 
> So yes, I agree with you. He or she ... does need to listen. Basically, the scenario you outline about a walk away wife was exactly my circumstance. But ... the roles were reversed. I did the walking, because I wasn't being heard, acknowledged, nurtured, respected, loved.
> 
> It's toxic for either gender.
> 
> My watershed moment? (I've written about it before. And once again, no, this was not a sh!t test, on my part.)
> 
> I said to my wife, "We need to get back into counseling."
> 
> She literally, no exaggeration, rolled her eyes and said, "Why, because you don't think we have enough sex?" (One could certainly argue that her response was indeed a sh!t test. She thought that I was leveraging counseling to get laid ... and chose to minimize my reason or request over it.)
> 
> And I responded with, "No. So I can decide if I want to stay married to you."
> 
> She turned ashen and her jaw dropped. That moment was effectively the end of our marriage.


Deejo, your contributions on this thread have been fabulous. Just wanted to tell you that.


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## Deejo

Anon Pink said:


> Deejo, your contributions on this thread have been fabulous. Just wanted to tell you that.


Thanks very much AP.


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## Middle of Everything

I only read the first page. Now Im just confused.


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## Deejo

Middle of Everything said:


> I only read the first page. Now Im just confused.


No worries, it gets worse.


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## Faithful Wife

It's only confusing if you believe only one gender does it.


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## Q tip

Betas will whine and probably sh!t test. They just don't know what to do with the data they collect...


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## Faithful Wife

Oh sure. That makes sense. The only men who do this are beta. Let's just insult everyone who we believe is below us. Because somehow we are perfect and never do anything to test anyone else. Gimme a break.

Tell ya what....my husband is alpha as [email protected] and he has tested me more than any man or woman I have dated. I would take a guess that he'd say the same about me.


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## vellocet

Faithful Wife said:


> Tell ya what....my husband is alpha as [email protected] and he has tested me more than any man or woman I have dated. I would take a guess that he'd say the same about me.



Tested you how? Can you give an example? Because I'm still not sure I know what a sh*t test is. My earlier reply I was going by one person's interpretation of it that is someone that will try to question something about someone else, but rather than getting to the point and being up front, they do it in a snotty passive aggressive way.


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## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> Separate your finances, install a keylogger, and demand his passwords.


Already have his passwords. What about the record collection?


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## HappyGilmore

Sh!t tests are an interesting commentary on relationship dynamics. I'm not saying that they exist, or at least to the extent that the Red Pill crowd thinks they do, but I do question why it happens in the first place.

My take on this: for those who engage in this behavior sporadically, or occasionally, it stems from a lack of power. When a man or woman feels that he or she cannot voice their needs in a clear, concise, and honest way without fear of retribution or rejection, than this is the result. This is the breeding ground for passive-aggressiveness. It can be from upbringing, where the child was not allowed to express himself. It can be from social pressure, where girls are instructed to be sweet and silent. In any event, testing a relationship in such a way comes from insecurity, and the inability to honestly communicate this insecurity due to perceived powerlessness. Sh!t testing is merely another form of passive-aggressive behavior. I've seen it in both men and women.

(As a point of fact, passive aggressiveness was first defined in WWII among soldiers, who were reacting against a perception of powerlessness)

Then, there are people who do this chronically. I've never met a single person like this who did not have a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. I've also seen this in both men and women.

For the record, I don't think what GettingIt is doing is sh!t testing. It sounds like an agreed upon method of her blowing off steam. Not my way (I'd rather hit a punching bag, work out vigorously, or just talk it out with my husband), but if it works for them, cool.

So, do men sh!t test? Absolutely. It stems from a perceived inability to be honest and straightforward with someone. Done occasionally, it should be seen as sign that the person doing it is insecure both in the relationship and his or her ability to express this insecurity. Done constantly, chronically--suspicion of mental health issues.


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## Runs like Dog

No; men wouldn't do this. If I win she's a b^itch and if I lose she's a b^itch anyway.


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## Deejo

*Re: Re: Do men sh*t test?*



heartsbeating said:


> Already have his passwords. What about the record collection?


Run a key across the ones you don't like then put them back in the sleeve. 

Nothing to do with sh!t tests really, just some good 'Ole passive aggression.


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## AliceA

Mr The Other said:


> Perhaps, or perhaps he was just being an ass.


Isn't that pretty much what this is? It's just a way to talk about people being arses to each other and give it a label, like the label actually means anything.

I think it's called a sh*t test because if you gave a person a test asking what it actually means, you'd sit there thinking, this really is a SH*T test, and walk the f*ck out. Wait a moment, that's exactly what I'm going to do, lol.


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## treyvion

Before the bible men were betrayed badly by women often leading to their demise and death. Why wouldnt a man do a $hit test to ensure his safety? There are many betraying wives and treacherous women in the bible.


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## AliceA

treyvion said:


> Before the bible men were betrayed badly by women often leading to their demise and death. Why wouldnt a man do a $hit test to ensure his safety? There are many betraying wives and treacherous women in the bible.


That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on here, and that's saying a lot.


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## AlphaProvider

breeze said:


> That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on here, and that's saying a lot.


In the bible alone there were over a dozen treacherous wives/women who caused mens downfall and death. 

BAD WOMEN of the BIBLE: the worst women in the Bible

I'm not saying women are treacherous, but men who use their eyes as their sole selector can often fall into the prey of someone very evil.

There are evil women, always have been and there are evil men.


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## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> Run a key across the ones you don't like then put them back in the sleeve.
> 
> Nothing to do with sh!t tests really, just some good 'Ole passive aggression.


Well, the ones I don't like could come in handy in a zombie invasion.

Shaun of the Dead - Record Scene - YouTube


Now if I go warm up the car, I first let him know that that's where I'll be. Easy done. As for passive aggressiveness, where's the line between that and communicating with a bit of fun / humor?


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## heartsbeating

IvyGirl said:


> In most of the cases on the men's board where they say they passed the test, I sincerely doubt their wife ever said, "I was just testing you, you passed! I feel more secure now." The husband assumed this was the case, for whatever reason.
> 
> Ladies, does this sound about right?


Despite reading this thread, I'm still a bit confused as to what testing is about. I've likely focused more on the outcome and communication style over the concept of what a test is. 

When my husband has used humor or even flirtation with small scenarios such as for me to get my own drink when I'm being lazy and my timing has been inconsiderate to him, then it's a way of calling me out in a playful way. He's not doing something he doesn't want and I'm quick to realize my request wasn't cool. In part, that's also because I trust him. It can be laughed off, no biggie. If this was something important to me, then I'd not be laughing it off, I'd express why I felt it was important. It's rare for that to happen though.

But that's also why I mentioned when I wasn't well and he took care of the dogs etc. because his response was to look after me. He knew I wasn't well. Maybe it comes down to knowing each other and mutual respect - to be open to listening and communicating directly and assertively, as well as playfully and having awareness of body language. In summary, I don't know what a test is. I do know when I view the outcome of our interactions, it's how it looks for both of us.


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## Deejo

*Re: Re: Do men sh*t test?*



heartsbeating said:


> Maybe it comes down to knowing each other and mutual respect - to be open to listening and communicating directly and assertively, as well as playfully and having awareness of body language. In summary, I don't know what a test is. I do know when I view the outcome of our interactions, it's how it looks for both of us.


I love to use lousy analogies.

'You don't need to know how the engine works in order to drive a car.'

You state the obvious point. And I would say you live it ... now, in contrast to where you claim your marriage was a few years ago.

I don't care what we call those moments in a relationship. But l do believe that every couple has or creates circumstances where an emotional transaction takes place, that either makes us feel more secure, or less secure about the partner they love.

And the more loved you feel, the less likely any of us will consciously look for ways to test it.


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## AlphaProvider

An older man explained to me this day and age there are way more female "players" than male, especially in NY, NJ, CA...

Someone would have $hit test to weed out a "player".


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## vellocet

I'm glad I don't have to worry about sh*t tests any longer


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## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> I love to use lousy analogies.
> 
> 'You don't need to know how the engine works in order to drive a car.'
> 
> You state the obvious point. And I would say you live it ... now, in contrast to where you claim your marriage was a few years ago.
> 
> I don't care what we call those moments in a relationship. But l do believe that every couple has or creates circumstances where an emotional transaction takes place, that either makes us feel more secure, or less secure about the partner they love.
> 
> And the more loved you feel, the less likely any of us will consciously look for ways to test it.


Lousy analogies are always welcome, just like a box of chocolates.

Our marriage wasn't in a good place a few years ago. I look back and see the part I played. I'm getting to the point of not cringing about that and instead just accepting that's who I was, and that I now know better. That's not who I want or need to be anymore - for myself or our marriage. He's changed a hell of a lot too. There was conscious, uncomfortable change we both embraced for ourselves. And it was like fitting pieces into a puzzle... or some kind of analogy. The last few months, there's been some heightened life-stress and it has magnified to us that we've come a long way, baby. We also disagree more - better out than in. As well as providing me with a pocketful of cheesy sayings, it's meant that we are more open and loving as a result. 

We're not perfect but we have learned a lot and are in a stronger place for it. I'm aware now of his needs. Things I may have overlooked and ignored before. This is partly because I've looked to my own shortcomings and partly because he's expressing them to me and I'm listening. This goes both ways. It seems simple and obvious but we're still learning.


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