# Understanding My Wife: Any Advice?



## Gunthar

Looking for a ladies' opinion as I have already spoken to my male friends with little help. :-(

Brief background:
-Married for 8 years
-Many wonderful kids (more than 4!) in mixed family (she from divorce, my wife passed away, yours mine, ours situation)
-I have a stable job at same place for over 15 years with good income
-Wife is stay at home mom (BIG job as you can see with so many kids)
-I have no hobbies or friends which I spend significant time away from my family duties.
-Past 7 years have been good.....but somewhat stressful due to all the kids and their school, activities, sports, etc.

Brief situation:
-Marriage has degraded over past year or 2. My wife is constantly angry and sarcastic at me......She says I never listen (for which I think I do most of the time), I find I cannot do anything right in her eyes, the kids, work, conversation, sex, driving, putting things away, chores not done right....you name it, she has complained to me about it. Lately she has been more distant (listening to music much more now, big time into Facebook and worrying about her looks) and I am fearful of saying or doing anything......say something-wrong, do nothing-wrong. Do as told---probably not done right. 

Now do not get me wrong I am not perfect. On the other hand I do feel I carry my weight...working 40+ hours/week, making dinner (probably 4-5 days/week), doing chores around the house (I do my own laundry and have taught our older kids how to do theirs so the laundry load is greatly minimized). After work I also do my job in driving and picking kids up from school/sport I also try to spend time with her although words are measured. I still treat her like a princess giving her foot, back rubs, trying to do anything I can for her, dinner...although I will admit it is generally not the most intimate (kids always running around or things we have to do cuts our one on one time short).

We have tried to talk but generally it becomes an argument. I have told her how I feel as well as try to be thick skinned but after 4,5,10 sarcastic comments pointing out all my faults I may break and make a negative comment back.....then look-out! 

Long story short she feels I am not a good husband.....I do not give her what she needs......but she never spells it out what that is (she says go read a book on it.....also a few comments such as I am too distant for which I generally reply it is because it is hard to have a constructive and pleasant conversation when someone is shooting the other down all the time. Also she has made a comment or two on how I need to man-up (tell off certain people, etc. but that is not me unless pushed....for the very reason I have not grown big balls and said enough...I am leaving). She has talked about a separation and I am not sure how that will go.

So any advice Ladies that can help me save our marriage? Counseling is an option (not done yet) and may try to give this a go if I can convince her to do it (I mentioned it but she says it likely not work as I may not be able to give her what she needs anyhow.......

So seems like she is ready to end it.....yet still wants me to give her rubs, make her dinner, still we go out together (but not sure why as sometimes she invites me to go out even though she may run off with a girlfriend....leaving me to wonder am I supposed to interact with her or give her space.....but wouldn't space be better if I was not there?).

So what is this need or is there any insight into the above actions for me to think about futher?

Thanks

p.s. sorry if this is not enough info....tough to distill down into a few paragraphs (and I know there is always my wife's side of the story which for all I know could be very different)


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## dixieangel

I'm sorry to say, it sounds like your wife may have "checked out" of your marriage already....

You do a lot for a husband who has a wife that stays home. Nice people get taken advantage of, even in a marriage. I'd be willing to bet if you did have some hobbies and stopped doing dinner, chores, and foot rubs things may change. We are all human and sadly, don't appreciate things until they are gone. 

You may want to post this in the men's forum. I've seen them recommend books regarding the nice guy syndrome. They may actually be of more help to you.


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## Gunthar

Many thanks dixieangle for the reply.

I am wondering if there is anything I could do to check her back in.......

So is it really true nice guys finish last? Am I doing too much?

Thanks again


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## OldGirl

dixieangel said:


> I'm sorry to say, it sounds like your wife may have "checked out" of your marriage already....
> 
> You do a lot for a husband who has a wife that stays home. Nice people get taken advantage of, even in a marriage. I'd be willing to bet if you did have some hobbies and stopped doing dinner, chores, and foot rubs things may change. We are all human and sadly, don't appreciate things until they are gone.
> 
> You may want to post this in the men's forum. I've seen them recommend books regarding the nice guy syndrome. They may actually be of more help to you.


:iagree: Exactly my thoughts as I read this. You're being too nice and she's being very disrespectful.


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## tennisstar

Why are you doing all this if she's a SAHM?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stonewall

"Married man sex life" read it don't wait!!!


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## Thor

I think you need to fill up your Kindle/Nook with some reading.

No More Mr. Nice Guy
The Way of the Superior Man
When I Say No, I Feel Guilty
5 Love Languages
Getting the Love You Want (and the workbook)

I think you need to approach your wife with a non-accusatory appeal to work together to rebuild the marriage. Ask her open questions and then just listen to her answer. Don't correct her or offer your opinion, just listen. Ask further questions based on what she says. She will feel heard.


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## Jisela2012

I think she has taken you for granted. I would love if my husband did half the things you did. If anything my husand is exactly like your wife. That being said, You deserve better and It sounds like she already threw in the towel! No one should be treated unfairly especiallly if you are putting more than your share into the relationship. good luck


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## Gunthar

Thanks to all for the great information.

First let me say why I do what I do......I love her and I take my wedding vows seriously. I do not want to see our marriage fail and with many kids in the picture it gets complicated.

So....I love her but I do not like (hate!) the way she has been treating me. Just today she threw several sharp sarcastic comments at me....and when I mentioned I did not appreciate the digs she says that is part of normal conversation that I cannot handle. I did not realize sarcasm and highlighting the other persons faults as normal conversation.

I may try Thor's approach in a few hours........I will ask and try to listen....although I will need to grow some titanium skin as I know I will begin to feel like the worst person on Earth.

I will keep you posted...wish me luck!!!

Thanks again


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## sisters359

Dude, don't try to talk to her. Next time she treats you badly, walk away. Explain that you refuse to be treated like dirt when you are bustin' your butt for the family (as she is too; I disagree that you are doing too much, b/c you have so many kids, but she has no right to speak to you like that).

You don't need to read the books--just take back your pride. Stop what you are doing and leave it. She can do it herself or be kind to you. She may know why "your way" of doing things is just making more work for her, so be patient about how you are supposed to do household chores (would you want someone making your job worse by doing things less effectively?) If she is the general of the household, you owe her the respect of doing things right/fully. BUT she owes YOU respect as she teaches you. 

Good luck.


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## Gunthar

sisters359 said:


> Dude, don't try to talk to her. Next time she treats you badly, walk away. Explain that you refuse to be treated like dirt when you are bustin' your butt for the family (as she is too; I disagree that you are doing too much, b/c you have so many kids, but she has no right to speak to you like that).
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks and I have tried to walk away in the past, not much comes of it as she feels she is always right and will not back down. I would see me not backing down and her not backing down leading to,,,well, you know what.

This leads to my ultimate issue, is it really me and whatever I am not doing to cause this (what the H$#L is it?)......or is it partially her....or a little both...

Try to talk it our or grow some bawls and begin WWIII? Which to do? 

Thanks again.....I need to decide soon as we will be talking in the next hour or so.....maybe I will flip a coin, best 2 out of 3 ...or maybe if the listening approach does not work then flip over to the other.


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## Thor

Gunthar, there are forums which could probably help you over on nomoremrniceguy.com/forums .

As far as talking to her, here's what I would do. First off, don't get into any kind of blaming conversation in either direction. If she gets nasty towards you just tell her that you want to have a conversation with her but will not tolerate being abused (or use whatever word works for you, e.g. disrespected, belittled, etc). If she continues the blame/disrespect immediately STFU and leave the room. Go clean the garage or watch a ball game in your man cave for a while. Do this without anger. She has to see she isn't pushing your buttons.

Keep conversations short and on topic. Don't argue anything with her for the time being. Like just for a few days, this isn't forever. She needs to see that you are serious about changing the tone of communications. If she starts blaming or criticizing, just say something like "We can discuss that topic later, but right now I want to get back to the issue of ______".

I would tell her that you are not happy with the way the relationship is going, and you want to find a way to get things back on track. I would say that you try to help her out and try to be a good husband and father, and that you value the marriage and the family. But this situation has become unpleasant for everyone involved and is not a healthy example for the kids.

I told my wife that it wasn't fair to either one of us to go on like this. Then I said I wanted us to go to marriage counseling. Then I asked her what she thought of all this.

That is when you STFU and just let her talk. Find out where she is at in her thoughts. She may surprise you in a lot of ways with what she says!

This isn't a single event which cures all, it is what kicks off the process. She needs to know you are serious and that you have been thinking about what conditions might cross the line to where you would divorce.

And you have to be willing to entertain divorce as possible for you.


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## RClawson

Gunthar,

I have read this far and I am groaning inside. Why you ask? Because you are just another one of the many that comes on this site asking for advice and when people who have heard your story 1000 times before tell you to stop doing what you are doing and try something different you immediately tell everyone you are going to do more of the same. I know that you know the "Definition of Insanity".

Read "Married Man Sex Life" asap and start working on yourself (by doing the 180). She will not change immediately and she may not change at all but you really need to start working on yourself and get out of doormat mode.

By the way I see a red flag I have not seen mentioned. I really hate it when people bring out the affair card but if your wife is this distant and spending a great deal of time on FB then I suggest that you do a bit of snooping to rule out an EA.


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## Gunthar

I survived!

Let me extend a million thanks to all who provided some insight into my situation.

Well, I did do things a bit differently. I began as Thor suggested which produced an answer why she has been so angry/sarcastic (yeah!) but then I had to change tactics when she put the whole blame on me.

So in summary:

--Stillhopeful's post was spot on in this area on the one big problem she feels. My wife said that while I work, cook, clean, take care of the kids that is not enough for her as I have not given her enough emotional intimacy she needs.

Before I go any further are any words of advice as I work to better understand and try to lessen this issue (looks like the internet could be a great source here...just did a search)

--After the emotional intimacy point got out she began to put me down and bring up my past mistakes which have led to the issue at hand. Here is where I took a stand (thanks folks who said this!)and said while I may not be perfect (no cheating, just focused a bit too much on keeping a good job (sometimes long hours and travel), putting food on the table and taking care of the kids) our current never-ending cycle is partially a result of her constantly being angry and sarcastic......who in the world can be emotionally intimate with their partner if they are constantly being put down. So unless she begins to treat me with a little respect and give me the opportunity to be emotionally intimate we will get nowhere...guess what.....I think she got it!!

Well....she did not admit she was wrong as she still tried to justify her actions......but I noticed she softened greatly at that point.

We then sat and talked until early morning.......emotional intimacy with very few put downs. PROGRESS!!

Only 2 things that bothered me a bit during our emotionally intimate conversation that I am looking for the Ladies to help here are:

--As we talked she actually opened up about how she has noticed a few guys checking her out (kept my cool here even though I asked for details and she said there is no point in telling you who and where) and kept talking about her looks (how she is not pretty and needs to do this and do that) and that maybe she is too flirty. She would ask me why guys do this and why guys do that......started to worry me as it sounded like she was using me to understand something that happened to her (jealousy bug biting but kept my cool)........the red flag that RClawson mentioned.....EA.....came into my head. Ladies.....any thoughts on why she said this and is this cause for concern on my part? At least she talked to me about it vs. not saying anything....good, right,,,she seemed open about it...not sure what to make of it? I acknowledged it as good by saying I tell her how beautiful she is and see....others see it too. Not sure if I should do some snooping or not.

--Another issue brought out in our conversation is she feels she has no identity (recall she is a stay at home Mom). I picked up most of the house chores and running kids from A to B many years ago due to her having health issues. While the health issues are still present she talks about her going back to school, getting a job and being more independent. I support her in these actions but I am wondering if there are any motives behind them beyond just getting an identity? .....or am I reading too much into these words?

I do want to save our marriage and if it takes more emotional intimacy then at least I know the issue at hand. As long as we can create the atmosphere together then I can see myself opening up more.....but I hope she can also put an effort forth (StillHopeful, what did you do to resolve your issue (assuming it was resolved?).

Thanks again all for the help.....that was the first time in a long time (after the initial rocky start) we actually spoke for more than 5 minutes without a sarcastic put down thrown out to derail the conversation.


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## dixieangel

While it was great that she did open up, I would be concerned about her asking why men do this or that. I guess I would be thinking the same thing...EA. Kinda strange that she would ask YOU those kinds of questions. I think I would have to do some snooping.

Being a SAHM can be very difficult because of not having adults to converse with. It is easy to lose your identity. You have to work at it. Women, especially moms, are taught that the kids come first and taking time for themselves is horribly selfish. They need to realize that to be a better mother, they need to do the things that make them feel good and give them purpose, outside of mothering. We need to be able to put on different hats....mom, wife, sister, daughter, and even career person. Moderation and balance in all things is important...when you focus too much on just one area problems occur.

I'm afraid though that she may be reaching out to others in an unhealthy way.. to fulfill the needs she's not getting met.

I have a feeling if you could check her Facebook, you'd have your answer as to whether she is having an EA. 

Ruling that out an EA would be a good starting point...then both reading the books suggested here on this forum and MC.....


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## Gunthar

still hopeful said:


> Oh that's great news Guntha!
> 
> Trust me, as soon as you start connecting with your wife the sarcasm and anger will stop. Find out what makes her tick, which from reading what you've written she wants YOU. For you to spend time with her, to desire her and to want her.
> 
> All the best, it sounds like things are moving in the right direction.


I would love to give a happy update but I cannot. 

I was hopeful you were right stillhopeful that she wanted me but no....she wants a real man.......see below.

We were sitting on the couch chatting when "out of the blue" said she needs more space......so stop touching her and doing things for her and only talk to her when she wants to interact! Wow! Here I am thinking interacting with her was a good thing (emotional intimacy). I was so dumbfounded by this that I told her to answer me one question......do you want to work on our marriage/relationship or are you done? I said I am willing so are you? She proceeded to provide a classic sarcastic answer saying in so many words maybe..........

What went on after that was the biggest fight of our relationship as I was done with the sarcasm and the put downs.

Well...more truth came out per her viewpoint (complete with all the sarcasm anyone could want) that she resented all the things I did....she told me she wanted to marry a man and not a woman! She also said how I have not made her feel like a woman in a long time. Unfortunately my explanations of the things I did was for her and the family (to help her and not take away her identity) as well as I was also challenged with treating her with unconditional love and care due to the constant sarcasm (one can only be beat down for so long before the tail goes between the legs). 

She did have some points in that I did make mistakes in the past to contribute to how she feels....basically every instance when I should have "manned-up" and did something. While I did address issues, I am more of a talker and lets resolve things in a civil manner vs. a more physical approach (kids, ex-husband, coaches, teachers, friends, family, etc.). To me she was angry at everyone and she should look at herself at why that is the case. I thought her early anger and sometimes sarcastic attitude was a function of her bad divorce......as time went on I think I started to see it went beyond that as it did not get better but worse to the point we are today.

Well.....for this reason I think we are done. At least the truth has come out to how she feels and I am not living up to her expectations.

dixieangle-while she did not admit to an EA I want to say she did or is contemplating it due to her comments and actions....grass is greener type mentality...looking for that real man who will treat her like a woman,,,which I guess my manhood radar was way off as I thought I was doing that until sarcasm made it impossible to sustain without significant effort.

I also do not think that type of man exists....one who will treat her like a princess but pull out the manhood in all external situations but tuck them away neatly when it comes to dealing with her (for which she would have a major problem with as she never backs down).

Any words of advice as I head down the dreaded divorce path? Never divorced before. 

Many thanks goes out to all the great people who took the time to reply to my post.


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## in my tree

Oh Gunthar - I am so sorry that this is happening and that she has been so cruel. I will never understand the sharp, sarcastic tones. They are so demeaning and hurtful. 

I am sure there will be some people here with great advice soon (the 180, No More Mr. Nice Guy and a couple of other books - go to the men's forum, they can tell you!!). Do you think that she could possibly already be involved with someone? Does she go out without the kids? Her FB page/messages might tell you a lot. Can you get onto her page? I'll be honest, when I read that she is asking you about other men, that made my stomach turn. I can only imagine what that did to you. If she isn't involved with someone now, she will be soon. Sorry, that's just how those comments seemed to me.

I guess it's a matter of do you want to be with her knowing how she feels? I mean apart from keeping the family together, do you want to work on this with her or are you fed up with her attitude? Good luck to you.


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## joelmacdad

Gunthar,

I am going to put this bluntly so be prepared...

You have become the typical doormat of a husband. You have let your wife walk all over you for so long it has come to this. Classic resentment being shown all over the place from her side and from your side. You think doing all those things will make her happy with you and life will be bliss, wrong. She just told you that.

Please, take the advice of others and first read Married Man Sex Life Primer which you can buy over at www.marriedmansexlife. Also, No More Mr. Nice Guy as suggested. Read Five Love Languages too, read that one together.

I can promise that your whole idea of being a good husband will change. Why do I know this. I have read the first two and know much about the third b/c of people here.

The first two books changed me forever.


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## Gunthar

thanks joelmacdad

yes, I have felt like the doormat which I know perfectly clear now is not healthy for a relationship......for myself and my wife.

On the flipside I am not sure if I will ever understand women, even a little.......which I am going to write another post on this here shortly.

also thanks for suggesting the reading material. I know it will be of value.


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## Gunthar

Allright.....now I really need HELP folks after last night. I will say with certainty I will never understand my wife......(women in general? starting to doubt that too).

Where I left everyone was that my wife tells me she is done with me......she wanted a real man.....not a woman. She said do not touch me, talk to me or do anything for me. She put me down in every way. What I did not mention was the sex part where she attacked me saying I have become a robot with no emotion or feeling and she cringes at the thought of seeing me (ouch! even though we have had a great sex life for many years until our problems came up and that I am in pretty good shape for an older man (lift weights/run/not overweight).

Ok.......ladies (and guys)...last night I am sitting on couch minding my own business when my wife decides to sit next to me and talk. We talk for 2 hours about this and that (mainly family, few other misc. topis.....but very little about our problems).....then OUT OF THE BLUE she says let's go have makeup sex! I am thinking what the F%$K! after all our problems and the putdowns??? 

Well, I was a bit paralyzed, not sure what to do. Well, in the end we spent a few more hours having some very good sex. I say very good as I was trying to figure out what she was doing and was not the most passionate (maybe a little more than recently) due to all our fighting lately. I did notice a few peculiar actions which she normally does not do (such as closing her eyes most of the time). I figured to spice it up a bit and she seemed to enjoy. She was also a bit more rough than usual (reading into this maybe?) telling me to grab x and y.

In the end she says good, but this does not erase the past (not sure why she spoke of this).

Allright, please help me read my wife.......was she just "in the mood:" and I was the easiest target......or is she trying to make things work by doing this? 

I have started reading a bit....alpha, beta, niceguy stuff and realize I can make some changes which could help us in the long run (and me for however we end up) but not sure what I should do now.

Alright, paralyzed now......how should I act today? Leave her be? Try to sit and talk about last night (meaning of it, better? Same?) Try to read her cues and go with gut? I am completely dumbfounded as I was planning to talk to a divorce attorney next week. Stillhopeful....since your situation is very similar to mine maybe you can make heads or tails out of it. 

:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:

Flowers or divorce court? (BTW feel like I should try for as we still have several young kids in grade school)

Thanks to all for reading this.


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## Emerald

You sir are a victim of domestic verbal & emotional abuse.

Stop being a victim! Demand respect in your own home! Your children are learning & will repeat her behaviors.

Only intensive counseling will fix this - maybe.


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## RClawson

Gunthar said:


> Allright.....now I really need HELP folks after last night. I will say with certainty I will never understand my wife......(women in general? starting to doubt that too).
> 
> Where I left everyone was that my wife tells me she is done with me......she wanted a real man.....not a woman. She said do not touch me, talk to me or do anything for me. She put me down in every way. What I did not mention was the sex part where she attacked me saying I have become a robot with no emotion or feeling and she cringes at the thought of seeing me (ouch! even though we have had a great sex life for many years until our problems came up and that I am in pretty good shape for an older man (lift weights/run/not overweight).
> 
> Ok.......ladies (and guys)...last night I am sitting on couch minding my own business when my wife decides to sit next to me and talk. We talk for 2 hours about this and that (mainly family, few other misc. topis.....but very little about our problems).....then OUT OF THE BLUE she says let's go have makeup sex! I am thinking what the F%$K! after all our problems and the putdowns???
> 
> Well, I was a bit paralyzed, not sure what to do. Well, in the end we spent a few more hours having some very good sex. I say very good as I was trying to figure out what she was doing and was not the most passionate (maybe a little more than recently) due to all our fighting lately. I did notice a few peculiar actions which she normally does not do (such as closing her eyes most of the time). I figured to spice it up a bit and she seemed to enjoy. She was also a bit more rough than usual (reading into this maybe?) telling me to grab x and y.
> 
> In the end she says good, but this does not erase the past (not sure why she spoke of this).
> 
> Allright, please help me read my wife.......was she just "in the mood:" and I was the easiest target......or is she trying to make things work by doing this?
> 
> I have started reading a bit....alpha, beta, niceguy stuff and realize I can make some changes which could help us in the long run (and me for however we end up) but not sure what I should do now.
> 
> Alright, paralyzed now......how should I act today? Leave her be? Try to sit and talk about last night (meaning of it, better? Same?) Try to read her cues and go with gut? I am completely dumbfounded as I was planning to talk to a divorce attorney next week. Stillhopeful....since your situation is very similar to mine maybe you can make heads or tails out of it.
> 
> :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> Flowers or divorce court? (BTW feel like I should try for as we still have several young kids in grade school)
> 
> Thanks to all for reading this.


Gunthar, she owns you. Make it stop now! You are going to have to take a very hard stand with her. Her behavior is unacceptable. If you have many small kids do not think they are aware of the way she treats you. Take back this relationship and insist on equitable terms based on mutual respect. If she cannot abide by that then tell her to get out!


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## diwali123

I am a woman, and my gut tells me there at least an EA if not a PA going on. Get a key logger and a VAR. She seems very much in the fog of an A. She closed her eyes maybe to imagine someone else. 
I'm so sorry you are going through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby

Gunthar said:


> Allright, please help me read my wife.......


Gunthar,

Can you give us the ages of you, your wife and your kids? What were your wife's mom and dad and her family life like growing up? Was she previously married and if so, what were her husband and marriage like? All these things need to be considered when "reading" someone.


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## donny64

> Now do not get me wrong I am not perfect. On the other hand I do feel I carry my weight...working 40+ hours/week, making dinner (probably 4-5 days/week), doing chores around the house (I do my own laundry and have taught our older kids how to do theirs so the laundry load is greatly minimized). After work I also do my job in driving and picking kids up from school/sport I also try to spend time with her although words are measured. I still treat her like a princess giving her foot, back rubs, trying to do anything I can for her, dinner...although I will admit it is generally not the most intimate (kids always running around or things we have to do cuts our one on one time short).


If I had a dollar for every time I've heard a man say something like the above, and yeilded the same results you're getting, I could pay off my damn credit cards!



> We have tried to talk but generally it becomes an argument. I have told her how I feel as well as try to be thick skinned but after 4,5,10 sarcastic comments pointing out all my faults I may break and make a negative comment back.....then look-out!
> 
> Long story short she feels I am not a good husband.....I do not give her what she needs......but she never spells it out what that is (she says go read a book on it.....also a few comments such as I am too distant for which I generally reply it is because it is hard to have a constructive and pleasant conversation when someone is shooting the other down all the time. Also she has made a comment or two on how I need to man-up (tell off certain people, etc. but that is not me unless pushed....for the very reason I have not grown big balls and said enough...I am leaving). She has talked about a separation and I am not sure how that will go.


The answers are right there in your post. She is GIVING THEM to you. And you'd BETTER LISTEN before she starts looking for someone who will satisfy her need for a "man" (and trust me, that is NOT A SLAM ON YOU! You've just fallen into the rut so many of us have / will). I'm sure you're a great man to her and your family. What's MISSING HERE IS YOU ARE NOT BEING A GREAT MAN TO YOURSELF!!!! And she doesn't like it!!!

She said "read a book"? Okay, here's the book....Married Man Sex Life. I've not read it, but it gets many good reviews here.

She wants you to "man up". Do it. Stop putting up with her crap. That DOES NOT MEAN "fighting" back. Don't argue with her over stupid crap...JUST WALK AWAY FROM IT. Don't let her engage you or provoke you. When she's able to do that, you lose respect from her.

Keep treating her well, but do not overdo it. The way to unlock her desire for you and sex with you IS NOT BY KISSING HER AZZ even more when she acts distant, is a b!tch, or pulls away from you by denying you sex. When she starts that, you start pulling back on your own.

And stop tolerating the disrespect from her (the comments that you can't do anything right, the snarky comments, etc). When that happens, CALMLY but in no uncertain terms let her know that you don't treat her like that, and will not tolerate it from her. When she wants to then argue, call names, or belittle you....WALK AWAY and ignore her.

Stop being "thick skinned" in the face of obviously disrespectful insults. Constructive critisizm is one thing...disrespectful, hurtful, nagging comments are another and should never be tolerated by a man who respects himself. AND SHE KNOWS THIS! So when you DO THIS, it just reinforces within her that you do not respect yourself, and you are a doormat she can walk all over. Women do not respect doormats, nor do they want to have sex with them.

Yes, get a book. Read it, and then give her (and yourself) the greatest "gift" you ever will by "manning up" and stop tolerating her nonsense. She'll love you for it. Virtually guaranteed pal. And you want to know the best thing about that? The easiest thing? That you can just be yourself. If you're mad at her actions...you let her know. If she does a behavior you don't like...you let her know. If you're not happy with how she's treating you, or that she's taking you for granted...you let her know. You let her know calmly, and in a way that she knows you mean it, and she'll respond. But she has to know you mean it. And she will "test" you to see if you do. You'd better be prepared to follow through with whatever consequences you've told her that her unwanted actions will bring down. If you don't, it's "game, set, match....wife!"

Then get ready for her to do the same to you. And you'd better respond as you'd wish her to respond when she brings up a legitimate complaint. If she's right..she's right. If you're wrong, you own it, make it right, and then get past it and get on with the relationship.

(Edited to add...what's funny about this, is when you do it well, it so decreases arguments, "silent treatments", pouting, etc. My W and I both kind of have this down. It typically does not take much more than a LOOK from each other....a raised "WTF" eybrow. An "are you freakin' serious" squint. Etc., etc. And we know we messed up. Sometimes no words "NEED" to be said, because neither one of us are yacking it up just to b!tch at the other or take frustrations out on each other. And it's a wonderful thing.)


----------



## Gunthar

Wow....all the great points and advice...for which I am sad to say I agree that I have turned into a doormat of a husband who was trying to please everyone, especially my wife. I really do feel like I did this not only because I loved my wife so much and wanted to please her, but also for all our kids for which I would move heaven and hell for. Yes.....I did not realize what I was doing was wrong and caused tremendous damage to my relationship with my wife.

Tenyearhubby-you ask a lot of background. In the case of trying to be anonymous I really do not want to give everything...just that we are in our 40s, kids from 8 to college age, wife married numerous times (for which I just realized she has been describing how she feels about me in a very similar language as her previous husband...even though he was mentally and physically abusive, could not keep a job, was never home, never helped around the house while demanding her to do things, which is why they divorced (I would call myself opposite of this---unless you call our fighting mentally abusive and her need for emotional intimacy). She has a terrible mother who I just realized from a relative that it ran in the family and several family members needed counseling over it....hhhmmm).

Ok, enough of background. I have realized from all these great replies as well as side reading and talking with her family (that I can confide in):
--My situation is very common--sigh-acceptance
--I have become the proverbial beta-male doormat
--Family members have said her behavior is not uncommon in her family..just that nobody wants to talk openly about it.
--The combo of my doormat status with her genetics has contributed significantly to where we are today.
On the good side:
--I have taken steps to get some alpha-male/manning-up characteristics back.
--I am following some good advice, in particular donny64.

I am piecing together what happened over the past year and things are getting clearer. Unfortunately, I believe a EA or PA happened or is still ongoing. 

Possible revelation: In fact, I am starting to think (from family comments, the older kids as well as myself) that much (not all though) of what she is saying is for her to justify the EA or PA in her mind!! I say this since things she has said are flat out not true and anything I said to counter it was wrong in her mind.....am I on to something here?????

Last night was a quiet one.......we sat and talked...no fighting but no real conversation around our issues. I tried to bring it up once and she said a couple of words and that was it. She did not want to talk about it.

Looking for advice as I take on the future in:

-I am seeking counseling for myself (she refuses as she feels all the issues are with me and that is what needs to be fixed first). I assume this is a good thing for me even if we divorce, right?
--Will be using the great advice given on when she "starts-up". Any other advice in this area would be wonderful. 
--How should I act to her in daily interactions? I am trying to find balance of sitting and talking as well as space.  Not sure if I should press talking our issues or not. Generally she watches tv, on the computer or running errands. Not sure how much interaction I should have and what the interaction should be (talk, plan a date night or some activity together, take a walk, I also used to text her several times a day and also call her at least once from work, etc.)? She is generally very distant (looks like she is in a fog). So should I act like her and wait for her to make a move, me initiate (surprise her and take day off work to do something special) or just go off my merry way doing whatever?
--Should I let time as well as my counseling try to heal the damage or should I do something else?

With all that is at stake (the kids mainly), I am at a crossroads whether or not to make the effort (short term looks like I will be doing this alone) or just throw in the towel.

One item that would accelerate this is if the EA (maybe) or PA (definitely) is present. I am not sure if true whether I could continue our marriage. I have taken steps to see if a EA or PA is present per the great suggestions here.

Finally, one thing that has me perplexed is that I would be willing to work on our marriage is she also does......for which the answer is she is not sure. I see this as cut and dry.....yes or no.....why maybe??? Must I change first then she will see if I am good enough?? Or is there some other motive for her such as she is biding her time for something? Advice in this area is greatly appreciated as if the answer is no then great.....lets cut our losses and move on.

Thanks again all for the great advice. You have brought some sanity into my life


----------



## bahbahsheep

As long as your children thinks that you are good father...that is more important.

People's perception wax and wane over time... someday your wife will come and realise you are the best guy she has met

My father is going through something similar at the moment but the children should sometimes speak up for their parents and it helps to offer a bit of levity to the situation if it makes sense.


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## Gunthar

bahbahsheep said:


> As long as your children thinks that you are good father...that is more important.
> 
> People's perception wax and wane over time... someday your wife will come and realise you are the best guy she has met
> 
> My father is going through something similar at the moment but the children should sometimes speak up for their parents and it helps to offer a bit of levity to the situation if it makes sense.


      

Thanks for the kind comment. I think the kids are proud of me being their father. I see it in their actions as well as what they have said. Which is why when my wife brings up a few (out of thousands) times where I did not help with homework, was late to pickup our kid...or whatever that I am a bad father for which she hates me for. 

I am at peace knowing that is not true (hence my thought that she is justifying something in her mind by trying to say how bad a person I am).


----------



## richie33

Your wife sounds like a real pain in the ass. I would demand she deactivate her Facebook page right away. She has time for that then she has time to cook the 4-5 dinners a week. No More Mr.Nice Guy is a must read. Seems your wife needs a reality check. Stop worry about her and invest all that energy in you and your kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrK

Gunthar said:


> wife married numerous times


Hmmm...

Do the 180 and ignore the parts about her coming along. She's gone. Let her go. Check to see if she's cheating. Get just enough evidence to help you in court. Get away from her. She's toxic.


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## Emerald

She (thinks) she wants to separate & you want to keep the family together. She is angry, disrespectful, demanding, controlling, verbally & emotionally abusive. She may be cheating. 

Keep being a good Father, worker & person. I would ease up on the things you do for her. Don't cook on one of your nights & ask her to. Ignore her rants & raves. If she refuses, throw something together for the children. No more foot rubs. She needs a wake-up call.

Mentally prepare yourself that this sitation could get worse once you stop being a doormat. If it escalates to physical (her), call 911.

Your children are watching.

Good luck.


----------



## Emerald

Gunthar said:


> Wow....all the great points and advice...for which I am sad to say I agree that I have turned into a doormat of a husband who was trying to please everyone, especially my wife. I really do feel like I did this not only because I loved my wife so much and wanted to please her, but also for all our kids for which I would move heaven and hell for. Yes.....I did not realize what I was doing was wrong and caused tremendous damage to my relationship with my wife.
> 
> Tenyearhubby-you ask a lot of background. In the case of trying to be anonymous I really do not want to give everything...just that we are in our 40s, kids from 8 to college age, wife married numerous times (for which I just realized she has been describing how she feels about me in a very similar language as her previous husband...even though he was mentally and physically abusive, could not keep a job, was never home, never helped around the house while demanding her to do things, which is why they divorced (I would call myself opposite of this---unless you call our fighting mentally abusive and her need for emotional intimacy). She has a terrible mother who I just realized from a relative that it ran in the family and several family members needed counseling over it....hhhmmm).
> 
> Ok, enough of background. I have realized from all these great replies as well as side reading and talking with her family (that I can confide in):
> --My situation is very common--sigh-acceptance
> --I have become the proverbial beta-male doormat
> --Family members have said her behavior is not uncommon in her family..just that nobody wants to talk openly about it.
> --The combo of my doormat status with her genetics has contributed significantly to where we are today.
> On the good side:
> --I have taken steps to get some alpha-male/manning-up characteristics back.
> --I am following some good advice, in particular donny64.
> 
> I am piecing together what happened over the past year and things are getting clearer. Unfortunately, I believe a EA or PA happened or is still ongoing.
> 
> Possible revelation: In fact, I am starting to think (from family comments, the older kids as well as myself) that much (not all though) of what she is saying is for her to justify the EA or PA in her mind!! I say this since things she has said are flat out not true and anything I said to counter it was wrong in her mind.....am I on to something here?????
> 
> Last night was a quiet one.......we sat and talked...no fighting but no real conversation around our issues. I tried to bring it up once and she said a couple of words and that was it. She did not want to talk about it.
> 
> Looking for advice as I take on the future in:
> 
> -I am seeking counseling for myself (she refuses as she feels all the issues are with me and that is what needs to be fixed first). I assume this is a good thing for me even if we divorce, right?
> --Will be using the great advice given on when she "starts-up". Any other advice in this area would be wonderful.
> --How should I act to her in daily interactions? I am trying to find balance of sitting and talking as well as space. Not sure if I should press talking our issues or not. Generally she watches tv, on the computer or running errands. Not sure how much interaction I should have and what the interaction should be (talk, plan a date night or some activity together, take a walk, I also used to text her several times a day and also call her at least once from work, etc.)? She is generally very distant (looks like she is in a fog). So should I act like her and wait for her to make a move, me initiate (surprise her and take day off work to do something special) or just go off my merry way doing whatever?
> --Should I let time as well as my counseling try to heal the damage or should I do something else?
> 
> With all that is at stake (the kids mainly), I am at a crossroads whether or not to make the effort (short term looks like I will be doing this alone) or just throw in the towel.
> 
> One item that would accelerate this is if the EA (maybe) or PA (definitely) is present. I am not sure if true whether I could continue our marriage. I have taken steps to see if a EA or PA is present per the great suggestions here.
> 
> Finally, one thing that has me perplexed is that I would be willing to work on our marriage is she also does......for which the answer is she is not sure. I see this as cut and dry.....yes or no.....why maybe??? Must I change first then she will see if I am good enough?? Or is there some other motive for her such as she is biding her time for something? Advice in this area is greatly appreciated as if the answer is no then great.....lets cut our losses and move on.
> 
> Thanks again all for the great advice. You have brought some sanity into my life


"wife married numerous times"

How many is "numerous?"

Are all of the "numerous" ex-husbands horrible & that's why the marriages broke up?


----------



## mymarriage77

Gunther.... I'm sorry for your sadness. Hopefully you and your wife can figure out what works best for both of you.
My questions to you:
1.) When you and your wife fight, do you fight fair? I’ve noticed a couple times you speak about fighting.
"Tenyearhubby-you ask a lot of background. In the case of trying to be anonymous I really do not want to give everything...just that we are in our 40s, kids from 8 to college age, wife married numerous times (for which I just realized she has been describing how she feels about me in a very similar language as her previous husband...even though he was mentally and physically abusive, could not keep a job, was never home, never helped around the house while demanding her to do things, which is why they divorced (I would call myself opposite of this---unless you call our fighting mentally abusive and her need for emotional intimacy). She has a terrible mother who I just realized from a relative that it ran in the family and several family members needed counseling over it....hhhmmm)."
2.) You are awesome to do so much around the house. Do you use this as leverage on your wife?
Please don't think I am trying to attack you. I just want to understand better. Your wife's feelings and reactions sound so much like mine, and I am not cheating on my DH.


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## thunderstruck

Yikes, that was brutal to read. I fell into the doormat/Nice Guy routine after we had kids, and I'm sure my W had similar thoughts. I discovered the No More Mr. Nice Guy book, and worked hard to yank my head out of my azz.

A lot of good advice has already been given, but I would add that you need to slow the F down. You have been a NG for many years, so you aren't going to quickly turn into super alpha man. You also need to STFU already. Stop having these long conversations with a woman who has lost all respect for you, and treats you like dogshyte. When she speaks to you with disrespect, the conversation is over. Read the NG and MMSL books + forums. Get IC. Give your W some space, and let her wonder what you are up to for a change. Pick up some hobbies. Connect with male friends/relatives, and go do guy things now and then.

Sorry, your W is probably already checked out and you can't change that. Work on changing you to become the strong man you want to be. It will help you in future relationships.

Also, you need to snoop, b/c she probably has a badboy giving her attention.


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## dymo

Add the following to your reading list, in the following order:

No More Mr. Nice Guy
The Married Man Sex Life Primer


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## donny64

> When she speaks to you with disrespect, the conversation is over.


That is a very big and good piece of advice. When she stars her crap, the conversation ends. You end it. Walk away. Tell her "this conversation is finished until you can talk to me in a decent way". This will typically send her on an even bigger rant because she's going to feel challenged. That's when you just walk away. No emotion. No yelling. No crying. Just remove yourself from the situation, and resist the urge to turn and see her sitting there with a "WTF?" look on her face.

The first step to getting her to treating you nicer IS NOT to kiss her azz. It is to act normal and then the moment she starts in with disrespectful behavior, you end the coversation with the reason that "I'm not going to tolerate you talking to me / treating me like that" and remove yourself from it if she continues. 

The more she continues to "push" and keep her crap up, the further away you "pull" away.

And EVERYTHING you do from here on out needs to be in a calm manner with an even tone. Don't let her suck you into her emotions. For one, it gets you nowhere but sucked in to her emotional state of turmoil. For another, the moment she does not see you as an unshakeable "rock" in the face of nonsense (hers or anyone elses), she loses respect for you. And the nonsense escelates.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Gunthar said:


> Tenyearhubby-you ask a lot of background. In the case of trying to be anonymous I really do not want to give everything...just that we are in our 40s, kids from 8 to college age, wife married numerous times (for which I just realized she has been describing how she feels about me in a very similar language as her previous husband...even though he was mentally and physically abusive, could not keep a job, was never home, never helped around the house while demanding her to do things, which is why they divorced (I would call myself opposite of this---unless you call our fighting mentally abusive and her need for emotional intimacy). She has a terrible mother who I just realized from a relative that it ran in the family and several family members needed counseling over it....hhhmmm).
> 
> --The combo of my doormat status with her genetics has contributed significantly to where we are today.
> 
> -I am seeking counseling for myself (she refuses as she feels all the issues are with me and that is what needs to be fixed first). I assume this is a good thing for me even if we divorce, right?
> --Will be using the great advice given on when she "starts-up". Any other advice in this area would be wonderful.
> --How should I act to her in daily interactions? I am trying to find balance of sitting and talking as well as space. Not sure if I should press talking our issues or not. Generally she watches tv, on the computer or running errands. Not sure how much interaction I should have and what the interaction should be (talk, plan a date night or some activity together, take a walk, I also used to text her several times a day and also call her at least once from work, etc.)? She is generally very distant (looks like she is in a fog). So should I act like her and wait for her to make a move, me initiate (surprise her and take day off work to do something special) or just go off my merry way doing whatever?
> 
> --Should I let time as well as my counseling try to heal the damage or should I do something else?
> 
> With all that is at stake (the kids mainly), I am at a crossroads whether or not to make the effort (short term looks like I will be doing this alone) or just throw in the towel.
> 
> Finally, one thing that has me perplexed is that I would be willing to work on our marriage is she also does......for which the answer is she is not sure. I see this as cut and dry.....yes or no.....why maybe??? Must I change first then she will see if I am good enough??


Too many questions to answer here but I will try to help you understand her. The combination of your wife's age, her chaotic childhood, her difficult prior relationships and the stress and responsibility of caring for the kids has pushed her into irrationality. Don't wait for her to do something, you are the only one who can bring her back with your leadership. She cannot fix herself any more than she could save herself from drowning.

Changes you make in yourself you will see reflected in her 6-12 weeks later. The best thing you can do is to get yourself into a place where you are not affected by anything she says or does. This can take a lot of strength if you are an empathetic person and she is really negative.

When you can emotionally withstand whatever she blows your way, this is the time to act. Insist that she quit her bad behavior or go to counseling or both. Offer your support and assistance every step of the way while insisting on a plan for improvement and carrying out that plan. Being assertive has its place but remember real men love their wives.


----------



## Thor

Gunthar said:


> I am piecing together what happened over the past year and things are getting clearer. Unfortunately, I believe a EA or PA happened or is still ongoing.
> .
> .
> .
> Last night was a quiet one.......we sat and talked...no fighting but no real conversation around our issues. I tried to bring it up once and she said a couple of words and that was it. She did not want to talk about it.
> .
> .
> .
> --How should I act to her in daily interactions? I am trying to find balance of sitting and talking as well as space. Not sure if I should press talking our issues or not..
> .
> .
> .
> With all that is at stake (the kids mainly), I am at a crossroads whether or not to make the effort (short term looks like I will be doing this alone) or just throw in the towel.
> 
> One item that would accelerate this is if the EA (maybe) or PA (definitely) is present.


I think counseling for you could be helpful in clarifying your thoughts. For me, being asked difficult and unexpected questions helped a lot.

Don't expect to get a clear yes or no on an EA/PA. If it is ongoing you might get a definite yes if you discover irrefutable proof. But if you get hints, smoking guns, or only circumstantial evidence, you have only limbo. Been there, doing that right now.

So my well-learned advice is to not confront if you discover anything. Even if it is absolute solid proof, like video of her in the act with someone else! Come here and get advice before confronting. If you get only a smoking gun, don't confront! She'll deny all. Either she'll go underground and you'll not get more solid evidence, or there was no affair and the evidence is misleading. But in either case you'll never know, and that sucks bad.

Why do you want to stay with this woman? Don't say the kids, because they have nothing to do with staying with this woman. The kids are their own issue, and you might choose to stay with your wife even though you don't want to, just to keep the family together. That is an oft debated topic, but don't confuse what you want in terms of staying with your wife with what you want for the kids.

Who knows why she says or does anything? You can't read her mind, and you can't really take what she says at face value. She may or may not want to save the marriage, so make your decisions based on her overall actions and behaviors, not whether she says she wants to save it.

Don't try talking about your relationship, at least not for the time being. I think it is time for you to be independent and strong.


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## Gunthar

ssshhhh...I've got a secret!!!!

Firstoff...this board has the greatest set of people! I am so grateful everyone is so open and willing to take the time to share. If it was not for you I know I would right now be acting like a cowering, feeble beta male trying to please her every need....not!!

Not much time to write.....off to our girl's soccer game.

Update:

--Snooping paid off. Found out she got hit on by a married man...having a EA right now.....and digging deep into understanding his actions by searching for stuff on the net (found out she spends hours a day searching and thinking about it). Find out he is the classic alpha male that she has the hots for....no PA yet for which I am sure but I am sitting back and waiting as Thor says......or should I...any advice?

--I have become much more at peace where I am.....I am following the advice of many folks here and it is paying off. Much more independent....feeling better about myself....the only thing that I am having trouble dealing with is the EA part.

--Let's see how the next week or two go but she does act strange where sometimes she wants to talk to me and show some emotion and even being more touchy and romantic (should I shut this down and stop her advances?) and other days she is aloof (likely thinking of EA...right).

Funny as I am writing this in real time......book unfolding....what is on the next page.....also funny that myself and you folks on this forum are shaping this book.

Thanks again all....will give more later.


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## Thor

Do you think this is a new affair from what you have been suspecting in the past?

Definitely secure copies of whatever evidence you have in multiple places where she will not stumble upon them. Do not reveal your sources at any cost! Do not prematurely reveal your information. When you decide to confront for a good reason, then you can reveal the evidence.


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## dymo

You may want to post on the CWI forum for dealing with the EAs.


----------



## MEM2020

Gunther, 
She never backs down because you trained her from the very start that you would ALWAYS back down. 

You have convinced yourself she can't apologize, but the fact is by allowing g this from the start you eroded her respect for you. 

This does not mean raising your voice. in fact it means not raising your voice. 

Simplest example: She makes a sarcastic comment bout how you do X. You smile and say 'didn't mean to stress you out', as you stop doing it. And then don't resume until she apologizes even if that means you stop for a few days or weeks. And your posture is simple: If you speak to me in a bad way while I M helping you. I will stop.


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## WasDecimated

I hope you caught this in time.

I was a lot like you. 3 kids. Working full time (sole financial provider), doing laundry, cleaning. dishes. shopping...etc. She was becoming lazy and selfish. It seemed I could do nothing right anymore. She was becoming more and more distant from me and the kids as well. Our sex life was drying up. She started spending way to much time on Fakebook and texting. I tried talking to her so many times about what was happening, but her response was always that we were fine...nothing was wrong.

I turned into a armature PI and discovered my wife had been cheating on me...for over 1 1/2 years. It was a EA/PA and I will never get the truth out of her.

I ended up filing for divorce after staying and trying to R for a year. In the end, she was too far gone to put in any effort. 

Don't make the mistake I did and try to win her back. Don't be fooled by her attempts at touching you with intimacy. My STBXWW did this as well. It was a smoke screen. She was just trying to placate me in order to continue her affair. Keep gathering info quietly. When the time is right you need to crash her party and shut it down. Do the 180. She needs to earn you back as well as the trust.

You should post your story in the Coping with Infidelity section. There are lots of folks that can give you good advice there.


----------



## Gunthar

Decimated said:


> I hope you caught this in time.
> 
> Don't make the mistake I did and try to win her back. Don't be fooled by her attempts at touching you with intimacy. My STBXWW did this as well. It was a smoke screen. She was just trying to placate me in order to continue her affair. Keep gathering info quietly. When the time is right you need to crash her party and shut it down. Do the 180. She needs to earn you back as well as the trust.
> 
> You should post your story in the Coping with Infidelity section. There are lots of folks that can give you good advice there.


Many thanks for the advice. In my situation with the information I have gathered she has not gone full blown EA and no PA. Now she is talking to several men now.....anybody that will give her the time of day.....40 year olds, 20 year olds....does not matter.

She also does strange searches on the internet such as getting your man, signs that someone is attracted to you, alpha male attractions.....etc....etc. I get the impression she is thinking of escalating and/or waiting until the right moment to leave.......and stringing me along. I want to believe it is just a mid-life crisis as she is always talking to me about her looks and she needs to fix this and that. I think the flirting and stares from other men are giving her the things she needs as maybe her age and self-confidence as a women is lacking (even though I compliment her...she always says a good husband should always say that so it does not mean much).

My biggest problem is if she would spend just a quarter of her EA time on us we would be in a much better place. Not sure how much longer I can let this go. Confront or not? She does seem to be trying......just a little.......but could it be as Decimated says she is just placating me and biding time until the right guy or right moment arrives? Since it is not clear cut I am torn with just ending it or trying to make it work (although for the time being I am doing my best to make it work).


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Gunthar said:


> She also does strange searches on the internet such as getting your man, signs that someone is attracted to you, alpha male attractions.....etc....etc. I get the impression she is thinking of escalating and/or waiting until the right moment to leave.......and stringing me along. I want to believe it is just a mid-life crisis as she is always talking to me about her looks and she needs to fix this and that. I think the flirting and stares from other men are giving her the things she needs as maybe her age and self-confidence as a women is lacking (even though I compliment her...she always says a good husband should always say that so it does not mean much).
> 
> could it be as Decimated says she is just placating me and biding time until the right guy or right moment arrives?


Could be and if it is she will certainly find plenty of help everywhere she goes. So take it one day at a time. You are in the best place to see her needs and you are in the best place to meet them so take the initiative and do it today


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## Emerald

You never did answer how many times she was married (only "numerous") & if she bad-mouths all of her ex husbands???


----------



## Gunthar

she 3 times married.....according to her abusive marriage last one and one before that husband emotionally cut her off (and then got caught cheating).

I gave her opportunity to come clean last night as we were talking about guys again.....she even brought up the MILF term! Talk about mixed signals so I challenged her a bit on her purpose behind her topic of guys, flirting, MILF, etc. She said she has done searches on the net and was wondering if she does not know she is flirting and is giving off mixed signals.....hhmmm...interesting explanation and would explain a few of her actions....but not all.


----------



## Gunthar

Decimated said:


> I hope you caught this in time.
> 
> I was a lot like you. 3 kids. Working full time (sole financial provider), doing laundry, cleaning. dishes. shopping...etc. She was becoming lazy and selfish. It seemed I could do nothing right anymore. She was becoming more and more distant from me and the kids as well. Our sex life was drying up. She started spending way to much time on Fakebook and texting. I tried talking to her so many times about what was happening, but her response was always that we were fine...nothing was wrong.
> .


Your situation is very eerie as it is nearly identical...except I am 99% certain she is not having a PA......early EA stage right now with possible thoughts of PA. Also, she is overt in saying many things are wrong...with me and they have to be fixed in order for our marriage to work.


----------



## justgetting started

Gunthar, you are on the right track. So glad you are making progress. 

Here is what I would suggest: Get a sitter and make reservations to take her out for a nice dinner. You make all the arrangements and make her feel super special. She mentions those other men checking her out only because she wants it to be you checking her out. When you see her dressed up for your date, complement her. She needs to see herself as something other than a mom and wife. This can be accomplished by having a date night just once or twice a month. (If cost of babysitting is an issue, check out your local city programs- sometime they have 'date night' for parents where you can drop off your kids and they have fun while you two are enjoying a night out. But remember, you have to make all the arrangements- this shows you that she is important to you and you value alone time together)

I know she appreciates all you do around the house and working but women need to feel sexy, cared for and a little affection and complements go a long way. Be sure to make a point of saying something nice about her appearance or accomplishments every day.

As far as the 'listening' thing, she probably just wants to vent and just wants you to listen and not try to fix anything. Just listen or make time to talk without distractions. You don't have to say much, just keep eye contact, listen attentively and tell her you understand she is dealing with a lot. 

Good luck!


----------



## Drover

Learn this phrase, "I don't treat/speak to you that way and I don't expect you to treat/speak to me that way." Then walk away.


----------



## Paulination

Gunthar,

I tried to go through this entire thread but just couldn't read anymore past page 2.

First, I can identify with your situation because I had a similar type of marriage except but yours seems a little more extreme. I hope this helps.

Your wife finds you clingy, insecure and to cerebral about the marriage. You read into anything and everything and want to talk all of time. I did the same. I felt if we could just keep talking about it we would figure it out. The talks almost always eroded into a fight where she would end up being the b!tch, and I would end up being a whiny victim.

The harder I tried to make it better, the worse it got. The more I chased, the quicker she ran. It came to a head when I got the "no more sex" speech because her libido was gone. I had enough, and you have had enough as well.

Heres what I did. First, I became a detective and determined there was no other man, either EA or PA.

Then, I simply shut up about the marriage and gave her the emotional space I knew she desired. I stopped following her around the house, stopped being overly concerned for how she is doing, stopped worrying about her happiness, stopped worrying about whether she was mad at me, stopped worrying about if she was mad at something else.
I stopped asking her about her texting, emails or her FB activities. When she went to breakfast with her close friend, I didn't ask her about what they talked about. I don't call from work anymore unless there is something I need and I don't text either.

On top of that I let her know I would not be staying in a sexless marriage so though I'll give her the time and space to work through this issue, the status quo and not working on it was not an option.

All the while I then re-looked at what I was not doing in the marriage. It is easy to sit back and say "well I make the money, I take care of the dinners, look at all that I do and how great I am". That may all be true but look close and you'll find deficiencies. You need to fix them.

For me, it was things like not taking my son to his class campout or preffering to stay at home when some friends approached us about going out. Things like that. Women often don't tell you want they would prefer or voice their disapointment but it is in there and comes out later.

We also went to MC.

You can still be the "nice guy" that you are but don't create a lifestyle designed around her happiness. Stop worrying so much and stop reading into everything. Go with the flow, keep things light and be a man she won't find it emotionally taxing to be around.

Things are much better for us now, I wish the same for you.


----------



## Gunthar

Paulination said:


> Gunthar,
> 
> Then, I simply shut up about the marriage and gave her the emotional space I knew she desired. I stopped following her around the house, stopped being overly concerned for how she is doing, stopped worrying about her happiness, stopped worrying about whether she was mad at me, stopped worrying about if she was mad at something else.
> I stopped asking her about her texting, emails or her FB activities. When she went to breakfast with her close friend, I didn't ask her about what they talked about. I don't call from work anymore unless there is something I need and I don't text either.
> 
> Things are much better for us now, I wish the same for you.


Many thanks for the advice and comments to how we are in similar situations. I truly did NOT realize this type of situation happens much more than I thought.

I have not posted here because I started some new threads in the infidelity and sex forums......long story short...I confronted her as "alpha", we aired all our dirty laundry.....we agreed to work it out.....I am worrying about myself and not her, give her space.......wow......no more fights....she has not made one sarcastic remark in a long time....we talk and laugh.....and the sex.......what a change (see my post there for info if u like).

If this come off as a happy ending (still monitoring just in case) I may post a summary of how this forum saved a marriage and family and what worked for me.

A heart-felt thanks goes out to everyone here as I would not be where I am today without you :smthumbup:


----------



## ms.beesknees

DO NOT TAKE HER SAYING MEN LOOK AT HER AS A RED FLAG.. How do I know?? I am a woman and I do this too.. your wife is DESPERATE for affirmation from you that YOU are still attracted to her. And all of this seems to be coming from her lack of self esteem due to being a stay at home mom. It sucks that society really frowns upon SAHM's like it is so easy. I have had a successful career my whole life, and now that I have been at home with my son for a year (by choice) you would not believe how hard it is. A 70/hr job is easier.. 1. it is very isolating. your interactions are with kids all day. No adult friends-or play dates that still revolve around kids. 2. Yes women are turned off by men who are doormats. Im giving you major insight here. Its not that we like guys who are *******s, or disrespectful etc. But if we can boss you around with no concequences it is a libido killer. If I were you I would schedule a date night with your wife. Suprise her, get a sitter and set it up. Then ask her what would make her feel better about herself, working, school? And if you can make it happen financially by hiring a nanny a few hours a week so she can focus on herself-DO IT. When she feels good about herself she will stop digging at you, but in the meantime try to be supportive and offer to help her but also let her know you know your self worth and that as much as you love her you have needs as well, and they begin with being spoken to with respect. Then grab her by the hair and make passionate love to her, and I promise she will change her tune. (kidding about the hair thing) unless shes into that..lol


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## Gunthar

Hi All,

MAJOR turn of events..........

Looks like we will be having the D-Day talk tonight or tomorrow :-(

Further snooping showed she has upped the talk and searches around seducing men and mind control tricks as well as even looking for zodiac sign love matches between her and her EAs.

Last night was bad as I confronted her on it.

She was a total b$%tch just like she was for many years. I tried to talk a bit in a calm, confident manner and she starts throwing sarcastic, belittling comments out there like candy on Halloween.

She says her walls are up now and that she cannot believe I brought this up (wow.....all I did was challenge her on her EAs...one would think if you had nothing to hide that you could deal with it and move on).

She also started to do her old ploy and bring up every little thing I did wrong over the years....and I say little such as I was 10 minutes late to pickup my 9 year old Stepson from soccer practice (one out of 100 pickups as rarely ever happened) and she states that type of behavior shows I cannot be trusted as well as it greatly hurt my relationship with my stepson (who cannot even remember the incident at age 13 now).

I tried to remain calm and objective but that just made her more angry calling me a woman and a sissy that I cannot even fight correctly.

I still tried to reason with her and talk about how these EAs hurt my heart. She would say great.....are you happy now. Well, I am glad you are happy as I do not respect you anymore. Wow....she appears to have no remorse or feeling for how I feel on this.....no I am sorry I did this or that I did not realize it would impact you that much.....nothing other than what I did was wrong!

Well......things took a turn as I began to throw a little back her way saying I would rather be a woman with feelings than a huge prick (yeah....started to get a bit angry now).

Anyhow, we talked separation (I say no...just go divorce) and divorce. She says she is done. I think so as I do not think she can disconnect any past mistakes on my behalf even if I became the perfect husband/dad. I could be perfect for 3 years but then something triggers the past to come cascading into the present. With this looming in my future even if we did try I am not so sure it is worth the effort.

I think today could be D-Day as this evening I am going to once again try to talk to her (VERY hard to do when she cannot talk in a civil manner). If we cannot try to work it out and BOTH put effort behind then I think we are thru.

Any advice for me on the potential D-Day talk? I knew this was coming as we are very different people and I am surprised we made it this far.....but was still hoping we could work out our differences....I do love her....and love the family.


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## fetishwife

Gunthar,

She is BEGGING you for some dopamine rush....she is begging you to BE THE MAN!

Read the Married Man Sex Life Primer by Atol Kay..TODAY

Report back here after you have read it.

You cant TALK this problem away...you are WAY WAY TOO NICE!

She is begging you to take over and take some control of your marriage.


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## fetishwife

Gunthar....re reading the above about your impending Dday talk..

You could try running the MAP from the MMSL book. IF you love her...

It does not sound like you have done anything wrong but be a total Beta man.....you tried to please her...she **** tested you for years..you tried harder...

IF you think YOU want her in your future...YOU can man up and YOU can decide to take control...BUT ONLY DO IT IF YOU want to.

In any case...please read the book and the other books recommended here....you have been lost as you let this woman take control of your life vs life your life with her and together...she treated you like a servant and like a supposed good husband you tried harder to please her....

Its not your fault...its bad programming for all of us.

Although I was never like you...(my wife says I have been a jerk and mean since before we were dating..haha..then why did she marry me?).....it did occur to me to try to please my wife and do things for her when things went sour...

This is the worst thing one can do..(except when she deserves it course). Your wife deserved nothing...you went to work, you do chores, you cook dinner, and all you get is **** tests....forget it.

You tell her YOU want a separation and tell her to leave if she wants to engage in EA's.

Cancel the internet or change the password if you PAY the bill. Let her go out somewhere else and facebook. No EA's in YOUR HOME!

Tell you her are tired of her abuse and you demand and deserve respect. Then WALK! Let her stew on that for a while.

Take care of your kids..love them all the more. 

I just hope she can not trap you in the legal system. That is the big problem here other than the kids. If YOU are the breadwinner the lawyers can screw you.


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## Gunthar

ms.beesknees said:


> DO NOT TAKE HER SAYING MEN LOOK AT HER AS A RED FLAG.. How do I know?? I am a woman and I do this too.. your wife is DESPERATE for affirmation from you that YOU are still attracted to her. And all of this seems to be coming from her lack of self esteem due to being a stay at home mom. lol


Eureka! This is spot on. I realized this during a talk we had last night. 

I just posted in a new thread that unfortunately, we are in a catch-22 with this.

I think if we overcome this and I work on myself (no more mr. nice guy and MAP), we can actually save this crazy marriage.

Any guidance folks? It may be too late but I feel one last try cannot hurt before we throw in the towel.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes yes yes




donny64 said:


> that is a very big and good piece of advice. When she stars her crap, the conversation ends. You end it. Walk away. Tell her "this conversation is finished until you can talk to me in a decent way". This will typically send her on an even bigger rant because she's going to feel challenged. That's when you just walk away. No emotion. No yelling. No crying. Just remove yourself from the situation, and resist the urge to turn and see her sitting there with a "wtf?" look on her face.
> 
> The first step to getting her to treating you nicer is not to kiss her azz. It is to act normal and then the moment she starts in with disrespectful behavior, you end the coversation with the reason that "i'm not going to tolerate you talking to me / treating me like that" and remove yourself from it if she continues.
> 
> The more she continues to "push" and keep her crap up, the further away you "pull" away.
> 
> And everything you do from here on out needs to be in a calm manner with an even tone. Don't let her suck you into her emotions. For one, it gets you nowhere but sucked in to her emotional state of turmoil. For another, the moment she does not see you as an unshakeable "rock" in the face of nonsense (hers or anyone elses), she loses respect for you. And the nonsense escelates.


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## Gunthar

Well....rollercoaster ride continues.

Now we are on good terms......BTW, I have been practicing more the walk away when things get heated.....has worked so far.

In being more confident in myself combined with she knows full well I am willing to walk away from this marriage has made things much better.....amazed how accurate much of the advice on TAM is.....should have come here years ago (then again I did not know what the problem was back then).

Just wish I could get off this rollercoaster ride as one week we are doing well....the next week something sets her off and we are back to square one. Has been happening now since mid summer.


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## Gunthar

Well......I think the rollercoaster just jumped the tracks last night.

After a week of what I thought was good.....we talked...we were intimate....we laughed.....I am feeling good about myself and where I am at in my working on me and the relationship.....

Last night she gets all evil with me and says I have become some "void" with no emotion or interacting with her...what the [email protected]???? We talked everyday, in many cases for several hours at a time.....we were intimate 3x in the past week!!!!

She then proceeds to bring up all the past instances where I "hurt" her emotionally....all being many years old. She then started to put me down.....like always.....well...back to square one again!!!!

One thing struck me differently than these setbacks of the past is she said she wants to "fall in love" with me again. 

Well....I see another low point in our marriage this weekend. 

Probably talk divorce again.........


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## dixieangel

Being on a roller coaster ride is so exhausting. 

Get off and go grab yourself a cotton candy..


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## MEM2020

G, 
Time for an experiment. When she starts with that - shake your head, walk away, get changed and go to the gym. And pay zero attention to her when you return.


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## Gunthar

Gunthar said:


> Well......I think the rollercoaster just jumped the tracks last night.
> 
> After a week of what I thought was good.....we talked...we were intimate....we laughed.....I am feeling good about myself and where I am at in my working on me and the relationship.....
> 
> Probably talk divorce again.........


TAM community.....this has to be the wildest rollercoaster on the face of the earth!!!!     

Guess what? The day after I post the above where we are ready for divorce, my wife becomes this loving, caring person who wants to be with me.....we go kidless in the evening and we have a nice dinner together, laugh, talk......than after dinner we have an amazing time  (as you can see when she is nice I roll with it......no point is shutting her down and continuing the bad side of our marriage.........or should I....sounds dangerous).

Dixieangle, I need to get off this ride......PERMENANTLY 

Get some cotton candy as you say, grab some food, go home and relax.

How can one be so terrible one day yet turn right around and be the woman that I could spend the rest of my life with the very next day....then be utterly evil the day after.....and so on???

MEM11363, not sure walking away when she is venting is good.....generally turns her into this psycho raging [email protected]#h as I have tried in the past but as you can see it does not cool her off. Could try and experiment again and see..........I will let you know as I can guarantee it will happen again....today? tomorrow? Should not too far in the future.

This ride cannot continue for too long for I will go CRAZY!    

#%&^ grY& wi^& ,..........see......I hvng a hrd tme typin3 nw :lol:


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## MEM2020

G, 
There are a few key aspects to conflict in a long term intimate relationship. 

One of the most important is also the least obvious. Energy management. Specifically emotional energy management. If you love someone and they are threatening you, exercise combined with music is the best way to minimize the anxiety you feel. 

If your wife has gotten enraged and you totally unplug and avoid her she will exhaust herself. Rage consumes a lot of energy. Upon return, if need be, I would lock myself in a room with a headset on until W returns to sanity and ability to speak in a respectful and civil manner.


----------



## Gunthar

MEM11363 said:


> G,
> There are a few key aspects to conflict in a long term intimate relationship.
> 
> One of the most important is also the least obvious. Energy management. Specifically emotional energy management. If you love someone and they are threatening you, exercise combined with music is the best way to minimize the anxiety you feel.
> 
> If your wife has gotten enraged and you totally unplug and avoid her she will exhaust herself. Rage consumes a lot of energy. Upon return, if need be, I would lock myself in a room with a headset on until W returns to sanity and ability to speak in a respectful and civil manner.


Thanks for the advice. Iw ill try


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## MEM2020

Gunther, 
Everyone has a different level of self awareness. If you truly believe that you are fair and reasonable and she is volatile and aggressive..... 

Tell her you believe that both of you are more harsh then should be with a spouse (without realizing it) sometimes. For the next month you will be turning on a var when you two are together to try and understand the bad dynamic that happens. 

I would tell her it will only be for the two of you and maybe a therapist if need be.


----------



## Gunthar

MEM11363 said:


> Gunther,
> 
> I would tell her it will only be for the two of you and maybe a therapist if need be.


I would LOVE for her to see a therapist...actually ANY third party person would be valuable. I have myself been going for nearly a month and a half now (sometimes 2x/week).

Unfortunately, she feels all our problems are because of me so I need to be "fixed". I have a strong feeling she has some level of narcissism (NPD?) as she has ALL the traits of someone with NPD (part of the reason she can become a junkyard dog anytime someone says anything she does not agree with or god forbid any type of criticism). 

Ask her to see a therapist? She will proceed to chew you out for 10 minutes on why she has no issues as they are all a result of the environment and people around her.....and that they are all quacks anyway so why waste your time.......yeah right


----------



## MEM2020

Var?


----------



## old pilot

Can't be done. End of story.
You will NEVER understand your wife.


----------



## Gunthar

old pilot said:


> Can't be done. End of story.
> You will NEVER understand your wife.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Yep....I think I have come to that conclusion. Unfortunately, her wild swings are something so exhausting that I know I will burnout eventually.


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## diwali123

How can one be so terrible one day yet turn right around and be the woman that I could spend the rest of my life with the very next day....then be utterly evil the day after.....and so on???

She's got borderline personality disorder?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby

Lots of stuff in play here, but don't underestimate hormones


----------



## Stonewall

Did you ever read the book? Several people have told you to with very good reason!

If you don't read it you are missing out on understanding her psyche. You have to understand the problem before you know how to fix it!!!!


----------



## Gunthar

Stonewall said:


> Did you ever read the book? Several people have told you to with very good reason!
> 
> If you don't read it you are missing out on understanding her psyche. You have to understand the problem before you know how to fix it!!!!


Yes, I am in the process of reading a few books......lately been slow due to work and kids......

Actually, I (as well as friends, family and my doctor) all feel that she has a good chance of having NPD.

If it is truly NPD (and she fits the NPD traits almost perfectly), then as you can imagine fixing the problem becomes 100x more difficult.

Case in point, she says she is perfect and has no need for doctors and counseling. The problems in her life are a result of me, the kids, her friends and family all having issues, hidden agendas, etc.......and she truly believes this!!!!

Hard to try and reason or fix someone who will not look at herself and acknowledge they have things they can work on (for this reason I am seriously considering throwing in the towel as whatever I may do to make things better may not mean much in the long run).


----------



## MEM2020

G,
The VAR will provoke a crisis - I understand your fear of doing that. 

The crisis will most likely be outward directed - at you. It is also a way, possibly the best way to get her to "see" herself and her role in all this. 

You likely got to this point by putting her on a pedestal and enabling her belief system that you are always wrong and she is always right. 





Gunthar said:


> Yes, I am in the process of reading a few books......lately been slow due to work and kids......
> 
> Actually, I (as well as friends, family and my doctor) all feel that she has a good chance of having NPD.
> 
> If it is truly NPD (and she fits the NPD traits almost perfectly), then as you can imagine fixing the problem becomes 100x more difficult.
> 
> Case in point, she says she is perfect and has no need for doctors and counseling. The problems in her life are a result of me, the kids, her friends and family all having issues, hidden agendas, etc.......and she truly believes this!!!!
> 
> Hard to try and reason or fix someone who will not look at herself and acknowledge they have things they can work on (for this reason I am seriously considering throwing in the towel as whatever I may do to make things better may not mean much in the long run).


----------



## Gunthar

MEM11363 said:


> G,
> The VAR will provoke a crisis - I understand your fear of doing that.
> 
> The crisis will most likely be outward directed - at you. It is also a way, possibly the best way to get her to "see" herself and her role in all this.
> 
> You likely got to this point by putting her on a pedestal and enabling her belief system that you are always wrong and she is always right.


hhhhmmmmm.....VAR......maybe it would let her really "hear" herself.

Early on I did not put her on pedestal. In fact, I did challenge her on things and held true to my beliefs. As you can imagine that created huge conflicts as she would never back down......this is where our fighting began and the household became massively stressful to me and the kids. 

I got tired of this and then to cope started to be the classic beta/nice guy.......please everybody, back down to my wife or just not say anything. make her happy by just doing as I am told. At least this lessened the stress as disagreements did not always escalate into major fights. 

I realize now that was wrong and that I needed to handle the situation above differently......fast forward 8 years and here we are today....at least I am much more knowledgeable than I was back then.

Right now things are somewhat calm (at least last couple of days...but I know I am on the rollercoaster still so a corkscrew or loop has to be around the next turn). My problem comes in to where I want to work on something with our marriage but know full well that saying anything will be a setback to having a calm household.

I know now that I must try to work on our marriage even if they mean she will get [email protected]#chy and knowing that she is doing nothing to try to move our relationship forward (remember, I am the problem in her eyes).

I may go out and get a VAR......just to be ready.


----------



## txdes

Gunthar said:


> hhhhmmmmm.....VAR......maybe it would let her really "hear" herself.
> 
> Early on I did not put her on pedestal. In fact, I did challenge her on things and held true to my beliefs. As you can imagine that created huge conflicts as she would never back down......this is where our fighting began and the household became massively stressful to me and the kids.
> 
> I got tired of this and then to cope started to be the classic beta/nice guy.......please everybody, back down to my wife or just not say anything. make her happy by just doing as I am told. At least this lessened the stress as disagreements did not always escalate into major fights.
> 
> I realize now that was wrong and that I needed to handle the situation above differently......fast forward 8 years and here we are today....at least I am much more knowledgeable than I was back then.
> 
> Right now things are somewhat calm (at least last couple of days...but I know I am on the rollercoaster still so a corkscrew or loop has to be around the next turn). My problem comes in to where I want to work on something with our marriage but know full well that saying anything will be a setback to having a calm household.
> 
> I know now that I must try to work on our marriage even if they mean she will get [email protected]#chy and knowing that she is doing nothing to try to move our relationship forward (remember, I am the problem in her eyes).
> 
> I may go out and get a VAR......just to be ready.


She's asking you to be the man. Well you need to stand up to her. Don't let her make the decisions on whether you are staying together or not, she's the one have the EA's not YOU. What you need to do is pack your bags and leave! Let her know you are not taking any of her behavior. She seems to only want you to stick around in case whatever she's planning doesn't pan out. Don't accept less than what you deserve. If she's continuing her EAs then there's no way that your relationship can work. She needs to choose if she wants give your marriage a go or if she wants to focus on these EAs. Put your foot down; if she continues her behavior, don't even bother to continue the argument just pack your things and leave. She might just surprise with a 180, but don't just sit there and wait to see how she's feeling today.


----------



## Gunthar

txdes said:


> She's asking you to be the man. Well you need to stand up to her. Don't let her make the decisions on whether you are staying together or not, she's the one have the EA's not YOU. What you need to do is pack your bags and leave! Let her know you are not taking any of her behavior. She seems to only want you to stick around in case whatever she's planning doesn't pan out. Don't accept less than what you deserve. If she's continuing her EAs then there's no way that your relationship can work. She needs to choose if she wants give your marriage a go or if she wants to focus on these EAs. Put your foot down; if she continues her behavior, don't even bother to continue the argument just pack your things and leave. She might just surprise with a 180, but don't just sit there and wait to see how she's feeling today.


Thanks for the advice Txdes. I agree I need to stand up on this. While I have challenged her twice now on this......I have not said stop or I walk. She keeps insisting they are innocent and that they help her understand what is wrong with our relationship......of course I do not believe this bullsh#t!

Leaving is not an easy option for me on several fronts (one big factor is I have no family or close friends nearby to help out). For me to say it and follow-thru will take some planning as well as trying to figure out how I should deal with our children (6 kids, blended family).

Maybe I should start planning.


----------



## txdes

Gunthar said:


> Thanks for the advice Txdes. I agree I need to stand up on this. While I have challenged her twice now on this......I have not said stop or I walk. She keeps insisting they are innocent and that they help her understand what is wrong with our relationship......of course I do not believe this bullsh#t!
> 
> Leaving is not an easy option for me on several fronts (one big factor is I have no family or close friends nearby to help out). For me to say it and follow-thru will take some planning as well as trying to figure out how I should deal with our children (6 kids, blended family).
> 
> Maybe I should start planning.




I see what you mean and totally understand conflicts like this are so much harder when you there are children involved. If you can't leave at the moment, you should definitely start planning what you're going to do if she decides that she's done and what she wants is keep on with her EAs. I would suggest that you take care of you (and your kids of course). She's apparently not responding well by you trying to talk things out or what not, therefore, focus on you. When you have free time and if you don't try to make some time for yourself for the sake of your sanity and your family's. 
I would say in a sense start ignoring her and acting like you don't care. My mom did this when she found out her husband was having an EA. She stopped questioning him, calling him, she would get dressed up to go to the store and she started loving herself more and her self-esteem went to the sky. She would go out with her friends every other week and was taking care of HER. She stopped being available all the time. Needless to say, he started thinking that she was up to something and started noticing her more, and slowly but surely he turned himself around. 

Now this may be a good alternative for you to try, but be cautious because it can also backfire. 

I also found this post that you may want to take a look at and give to her to read. 
Michele Weiner-Davis: The Truth About Emotional Affairs

I wish you the best. Please keep us posted.


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## dixieangel

The truth about emotional affairs....Good article. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## indiecat

Next time she criticizes you ask her 'Do I do anything Right?'. 
That is always thought provoking.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I think you should TELL HER what she is going to do. She is going to give you her facebook password or disable her account while you watch.

Tell her she is going to treat you like the head of the house that you are and you aren't taking anymore BS.

I think you *might* be surprised at the response. JMO


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## MEM2020

Love this advice


----------



## Gunthar

EnjoliWoman said:


> I think you should TELL HER what she is going to do. She is going to give you her facebook password or disable her account while you watch.
> 
> Tell her she is going to treat you like the head of the house that you are and you aren't taking anymore BS.
> 
> I think you *might* be surprised at the response. JMO


No problems on passwords as I have them all...facebook, hotmail, phone, even a separate email account she created incognito.

She is VERY sneaky in that she immediately deletes messages that she feels would be something I would get upset over...consequently she would say look....we are talking about soccer (she is admin for our kids soccer teams (2 of them) and she has the hots/in a EA for the soccer coach....one of her EAs). Yep (look over messages)....soccer....but I also know she went much deeper into relationships, sex, etc. (sex talk definitely crosses the line IMHO)....I know the real story from spying tips from the folks here on TAM.

txdes: thanks for the article. great reference for describing EAs.

indiecat: asking her "do I do anything right" is a good one :lol: yep.....said that many times!

Let me see....she has criticized me for.....the way I drive, the way I do laundry, cook, clean, do dishes, interact with the kids, sleep, sex, hang molding, mow the grass, lay tile, hang drywall, talk to her (one I hate!), being social/taking to people, etc. (just a few off the top of my head, I could go on and these are not just one timers but multiple....and much more so since our big blow-up this summer (IMHO justifying what she has been doing by making me the one who caused her to do it). 

So yep........I cannot do anything right in her eyes. I am damaged...wow....nobody is perfect and one can say most things a person does is not 100% textbook perfect but as my wife would say.......______(insert wife's name here) is perfect and demands perfection and call _____(insert name again) selfish, she "wants it all" (a quote she has said to many people in which they wonder why she says it in the third person). 

So why am I still with this woman? I feel she has one foot in the marriage and another out of the marriage. The more I think about it the more I do not want to pull a "me man......you wife......me drag your foot back into marriage". Why force this? If she really wants to be in the marriage and work on it then she needs to make that decision for herself. Call me selfish on this one but all I am looking for in a relationship/marriage is someone who wants to fully commit....not someone who is forced to commit or in the worst case scenario...wants out but plays along saying they are in only to wait until the time is right to bolt or find someone who will save them......do not feel like waiting around.

Now while I have been busting my butt in trying to make my marriage work, I am also preparing myself for divorce. Consequently, I also have crept up to the marriage/divorce line and if I do not see any honest effort being given on her side or see a big slide back to being an over the top narcissist then I will make the decision for us and leave/divorce (for as many say here in the long run it will be better for the kids and myself).

I know D-Day will be soon if things don't improve. But I do think of the holidays around the corner and the kids...and worry if the slide happens before the end of the year.

Maybe after divorce she will realize our marriage and family life was not so bad....oh well......that will be her loss.

Thanks everybody for taking the time to write. I am eternally grateful as this has helped me immensely in understanding my situation as well as things I can control and work on....as well as things I cannot.


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## Gunthar

Hi All TAM Members!

Been a month since my last post.......yep still alive and kicking but have been providing more supporting posts than writing about myself.

Thought I would provide a brief update.

Well, I had a deadline of the end of the year for her to make significant progress or.......I already have an attorney and and ready to begin getting divorce papers ready.

Darn if my wife has not made progress over the past few weeks. We have talked more....she has been more open and even went so far as to acknowledge her EAs and her rewriting history to make me the fall guy! 

My hands-off approach letting her work it out seems to have worked.....at least for the short term.

Her EAs have subsided to a large degree but I know she still is having withdrawals from them. I did see the opportunity to step in and be the heavy hand saying if I find out they are starting back up I will confront and give ultimatums that everyone will not like. Surprisingly, thru all the above she did very little in the way of attacking me or putting me down like she has in the past.

I am still a bit concerned because while she is more open and honest with me about what she has been battling in her head, I still have issues with:

--Her over the top focus on her looks
--Her mentioning how everyday guys are checking her out.....or should I say it may be a mutual thing 
--Her EAs......while minimized, are still lingering in her head. I have put my foot down but have not said no contact yet.....that is unless I see is pick back up.
--Her sexual habits change still has me concerned as I mentioned in previous posts she is more interested in me acting like her one night stand vs. her husband.

Well, the next few weeks will be interesting. At least she is not the over the top narcissistic [email protected] that she has been n the past. I can live with that.....at least a little longer.

Thanks all


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## pookiesmom

I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles. You seem like a pretty incredible person dealing with a very difficult situation. You've gotten a lot of advice on how to change/improve yourself, but your wife sounds like she is dealing with some very serious mood/emotional disorders. Maybe she is clinically depressed, is dealing with postpartum hormones (or menopause? Is that a possibility?) or has PTSD from her previous abusive relationship. I am not going to play armchair psychiatrist, but I hate to see you beat yourself up trying to mold yourself into her perfect man when her problems are so clearly stemming from herself, not you.

I would go so far as to say that nothing you can possibly do will create a lasting change in her behavior. I'll put this bold because I think it is the only real solution to your relationship troubles: *she needs therapy*. I'm not even talking couple's counseling (though your relationship would certainly benefit from that, too). She needs intensive, one-on-one, once a week therapy. I'm not a fan of ultimatums, but given the circumstances, my advice to you would be to sit her down calmly, to not engage with any of her sarcasm or criticism, and to say something straightforward like: "I need you to start seeing a therapist if you have any interest in continuing our relationship. At this point the only chance we have at saving our relationship is for you to see a therapist. If you have any respect for me or any desire to save our family, you will make an appointment to see a therapist this week. Otherwise, I don't think I can keep investing in this relationship." I would recommend that you research therapists in your area who take your insurance and then hand her a list of numbers to call. And then walk away. Do not engage with any attacks she throws at you, do not defend your position, just walk away. She will probably get defensive, that's fine. That's her problem. You have invested too much in trying to keep together a relationship with an emotionally abusive (yes, that is absolutely what she is) woman. The ball's in her court, now.

I wish you the best, however things turn out.


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