# LD Wife is in denial



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Anyone ever struggle with a low drive spouse who is in denial about it? She would always claim we had sex more than we really did, so a year ago i started making the days we did on a calender and a year later its been a grand total of 17 times...roughly every 3 weeks. Should i show her the calender? will it help or is it basically just beating a dead horse at this point?

Incase anyone wants the background story
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/41086-newlywed-desperate-help.html


----------



## nader (May 4, 2011)

my wife probably thinks I do that anyway (keep track of the dates).. I don't think winning this argument will help your case much.

I've done a bit better, maybe 2-3x / week, but we have dry spells, like the one I'm in now.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

nader said:


> my wife probably thinks I do that anyway (keep track of the dates).. I don't think winning this argument will help your case much.


thats what i am concered about, it will just end up making her mad.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

It won`t win the argument but it will take away one of her patented answers she relies on.

I`d show it to her and then show her the stats on what is considered a sexless marriage because clinically you`re very close to one.

Personally you`re well into one.

I don`t know your story Toshiba have you tried MMSL and running the MAP?

Married Man Sex Life


----------



## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

My husband was/ is in denial too. For so long he would not acknowledge there was any problem. He opened up earlier this year after many years of denial but has shut down again and stopped talking about it.

I'm not sure if it's denial, or if sex is such a non-issue to him that he "can't" see the problem. He's also forgotten times we have had sex. It matters so little to him that it's not worth thinking about I guess.

You could try showing her the calendar but she might accuse you of marking it incorrectly.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

tacoma said:


> It won`t win the argument but it will take away one of her patented answers she relies on.
> 
> I`d show it to her and then show her the stats on what is considered a sexless marriage because clinically you`re very close to one.
> 
> ...


If it helps this is my story
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/41086-newlywed-desperate-help.html

I have heard that 10 or less times a year is a sexless marriage, i suppose 17 is pretty darn close.


----------



## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

ANY proof you can offer to support your view is in no way an affront to your spouse's viewpoint.
I would recommend doing whatever you can to alleviate the problem unless, you don't consider a total lack of affection to be one.
If it isn't a problem, just what are you getting out of the relationship that you couldn't achieve with your hands?


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

She would retort that 17x a year is not only normal it's excessive. It would prove her own case. Or she would simply tell you you're lying.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I read your other post. Even without reading it I can tell you that showing her the calendar is counterproductive.

Your wife knows she is not sexing you. She does not want to sex you. She only gives you sex and good treatment when she has a reason. The first reason was to get you to marry her. The second reason was to get you to buy a house.

Now she has the house, she dominates you and she has evertything she wants in life. Therefore there is no reason to be sexual with you. What she wants in marriage is some extra money and the apperance of normalcy. The next time she will become sexual is when she wants a kid.

The only solution to your problem is you must give her a reason to become sexual. That reason is ..... drumroll please.... She can either be a wife to you or she can choose not to be a wife to you. Currently she is choosing not to be your wife. All you need to do is define what it is you want in a wife (sex, and not being her parent's child any more), and allow her to verbalize to you whether she is going to choose to be her parents child, or your wife. It's really this simple. But you must make it perfectly clear that you are only interested in having her as a wife and not any alternate arrangement.


----------



## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Toshiba2020 said:


> Anyone ever struggle with a low drive spouse who is in denial about it? She would always claim we had sex more than we really did, so a year ago i started making the days we did on a calender and a year later its been a grand total of 17 times...roughly every 3 weeks. Should i show her the calender? will it help or is it basically just beating a dead horse at this point?


My W is not in denial - but rather exaggerates (and can never be wrong re frequency or intimacy). If your W is like mine, showing her the chart will anger her. Keep it though, for when you can have meaningful discussions that are not her being mean and defensive. Your point should be that however frequent, it is not enough to fulfill you. Frequency is not the issue - it is emotional fulfillment and satisfaction (setting a number, by definition almost, will mean that what you are looking for is not there). That her not caring about your needs makes it seem like she does not love you (love is caring about someone's happiness at least as much as your own) and her antipathy towards sex makes clear she is not in love with you (strong desire to be with you). The books, sex starved marriage, 5 love languages, can help. Also, being less needy and clingy can help (realize that it is not you, you are needy and clingy because you are not getting what you want). 

I see the goal in my marriage - for her to understand what sex/physical intimacy/her desire for me means to me. Once that happens, I will know whether she will make a real effort. I think she is making an effort toward understanding our relationship. It is hard because we have 4 children and I have a demanding job. So, we just don't have that much time.

Good luck. 

If there are no children, and you matter of factly say that her approach toward you is hurtful and there is lots of advice out there, but she is not willing to read and learn what she is doing/causing, you need to be prepared to walk. Do not have children until the issue is resolved.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

hookares said:


> ANY proof you can offer to support your view is in no way an affront to your spouse's viewpoint.
> I would recommend doing whatever you can to alleviate the problem unless, you don't consider a total lack of affection to be one.
> If it isn't a problem, just what are you getting out of the relationship that you couldn't achieve with your hands?


Um, 17 times a year is a problem and typically yes my hand does all the work...sad but true haha.

I suppose i put up with it all not because im happy but i hope that it will one day change for the better...

There used to be a strong emotional bond but as the physical part of our marriage fell apart i think i have with drawn emotionally as well, i guess its hard to connect with someone on a romantic level when you feel like roommates


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

So your better half is aiming for what? 17x a decade? I would cut her off to zero for 6 months to see what happens.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Hicks said:


> I read your other post. Even without reading it I can tell you that showing her the calendar is counterproductive.
> 
> Your wife knows she is not sexing you. She does not want to sex you. She only gives you sex and good treatment when she has a reason. The first reason was to get you to marry her. The second reason was to get you to buy a house.
> 
> ...


You hit it head on, i just wish i would have realized it all earlier, or atleast listened to my friends and family who warned me. I guess i was just in love and was blind to it all, luckly im starting to see through it all and realizing that my marriage is not happy or healthy and there either needs to be big changes or it needs to end. I got married to start a family, not join someone else and constantly fight for attention from my wife. The way i see it i need to give her two choices, be 90% a wife and 10% a daughter (some family time is ok) or be 100% a daughter and 0% a wife.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Force the birth control issue. You might have to give her some ultimatum on this. Might be worth the try.


And what about the household chores. Tell that you are not happy how you do most of the things and ask her to share them.



After re-reading the thread, divorce might be the best thing for you. She might change a little under ultimatums until you have the kids and will revert back to her old ways. 

And kick that little brother out tonight.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> So your better half is aiming for what? 17x a decade? I would cut her off to zero for 6 months to see what happens.


Don't do this. This is a epic fail method that will ensure that you will have no sex for 6 months and it won't change a thing


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Don't do this. This is a epic fail method that will ensure that you will have no sex for 6 months and it won't change a thing


Yeah, at one point i read something about denying the LD person sex, dont initiate it, just completely withdraw physically but still have a strong emotional relationship, well after 10 weeks we still had not had sex, she showed NO desire to be physical infact she was completely content not having to deal with my physical needs and was getting all the emotional attention needed...complete backfire on that advice!


----------



## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Toshiba2020 said:


> thats what i am concered about, it will just end up making her mad.


This is exactly the wrong state of mind. 

At your stage in this problem, why on earth would you care if she gets mad? She must suspect you are trying to keep the peace and therefore feels it is safe to ignore your feelings, or she simply no longer really cares about you.

I think your first approach is always one of patience and understanding. But when that has failed, you need to be clear about what you expect our of a marriage, and not care if it makes her mad. 

If her tactic is simply denial, break out the calendar. If she gets mad and clams that she now has a new reason you are not having sex since "you are keeping track", at least then you can say, "then we are all in agreement that up this moment there was some other problem with our sex life"


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Lionelhutz said:


> This is exactly the wrong state of mind.
> 
> At your stage in this problem, why on earth would you care if she gets mad? She must suspect you are trying to keep the peace and therefore feels it is safe to ignore your feelings, or she simply no longer really cares about you.
> 
> ...


plus whats the worst that can happen? she gets upset and doesnt want to have sex with me...wait thats already happening haha


----------



## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Lionelhutz said:


> This is exactly the wrong state of mind.
> 
> At your stage in this problem, why on earth would you care if she gets mad? She must suspect you are trying to keep the peace and therefore feels it is safe to ignore your feelings, or she simply no longer really cares about you.
> 
> ...


I do not think the point is to avoid conflict, but rather to avoid pointless conflict. Statistics are not relevant to the fact that his wife is not, to his satisfaction, being a wife. Period. 17x, 34x, 51x references whether the amount of sex he expects is reasonable, not whether she understands what she is doing/not doing. It is support for the argument once she is reasonable, but fuel for the fire that will get burned up when she is in a defensive tirade.

It must be matter of fact. I told you I was not happy with our sex life, I think you exaggerate the frequency so i kept track to ensure I was not crazy. I am not crazy, you are a sh*t wife. Here are some materials you should read; choose either pile - pile 1 [marriage books stating how important physical intimacy is and posts from men and women in LD relationships; maybe a simplyamorous post of how a great sex life is part of a great marriage] - pile 2 [divorce papers].


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

it's important the "How" you offer her the choice.

You have to first verbalize what any normal person would think a marriage includes: Sex, cleaving from the family, fun, romance, more sex, future kids, independence... Real non contoversial. Get her to verbalize whether she belives that a marriage should include all of those things... Then hit her with making the choice.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

A discussion about what a marriage is must preceed a discussion about whether you had sex 17 times in a year or not.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> Anyone ever struggle with a low drive spouse who is in denial about it? She would always claim we had sex more than we really did, so a year ago i started making the days we did on a calender and a year later its been a grand total of 17 times...roughly every 3 weeks. Should i show her the calender? will it help or is it basically just beating a dead horse at this point?


Let's start with a basic premise: your wife is not really in denial but engaging in a form of blame-shifting. Rather than admit to a problem with frequency, she is contradicting your recollection to take the pressure off her. It is not much different that blaming your actions for her lack of drive ("I would want more if you would ...).

So, showing her the calendar might work if she really does not realize how little sex there is (as you view your frequency) AND she is motivated to work on it. But, what if she says "that IS a lot of sex" (your claim about her recollection of your frequency is vague, so I mentioned this possibility)? What if she says "gee, I guess you're right" and goes back to doing the same ol' thing?

Also, showing her the calendar might help if you need the proof to empower yourself to confront her (although you really should feel confident enough to do so without the calendar).

Ultimately, the calendar is unlikely to help because your wife is (again) likely not believing what she is telling you; if you tackle the lie she will create another excuse to not have sex. Moreover, she might be offended at your flushing out the truth and dig in her heels (not right, but it happens).

You really concentrate on improving her willingness to meet your needs as you state them (if they are reasonable) and avoid what are essentially negotiations where she strives to drive her effort down to the minimum you will tolerate.

If you really need to bring this problem into the light, I would ask (and personally have asked) the question "when was the last time we had sex" and observe closely. If you get a deer-in-the-headlights look or rambling in response, you have the answer.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> Don't do this. This is a epic fail method that will ensure that you will have no sex for 6 months and it won't change a thing


that more or less proves the point. if she won't she won't & everything else is just commentary.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Toshiba,
The issue isn't that her parents are a high priority, rather it is that you are a low priority. Somehow you let her create a situation where you just don't matter very much. That is a very, very difficult thing to change. If she knows you are unhappy and nothing has changed, your odds of addict kids and also upping your priority are quite low.





OTE=Toshiba2020;617081]You hit it head on, i just wish i would have realized it all earlier, or atleast listened to my friends and family who warned me. I guess i was just in love and was blind to it all, luckly im starting to see through it all and realizing that my marriage is not happy or healthy and there either needs to be big changes or it needs to end. I got married to start a family, not join someone else and constantly fight for attention from my wife. The way i see it i need to give her two choices, be 90% a wife and 10% a daughter (some family time is ok) or be 100% a daughter and 0% a wife.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Just wanted to give a update, i sat down with my wife about a week ago. I let her know that our sex life wasent acceptable (not the first time shes heard that), showed her that i had kept track of the frequency, 18 times in 12 months and asked her if it bothered her that we live in a sexless marriage and that the average married couple has sex roughly 120 times a year. She said it doesnt bother her, she never worries or thinks about it. Said she would say something to her Dr about the bith control when she goes in 3 months but this is the same dr she saw 1 year ago that didnt think it was a problem. The only good news is i think she might be understanding the seriousness of the situation, i commented "is this how you want our marriage to look 5 years from now" and she replied "you wont stick around if it stays like this"

also found out shes afraid of getting pregnant, even though shes on BC and i use protection not to mention we have sex once a month. Apparently she is having second thoughts on having her own kids...i guess that means adoption? :scratchhead:

She says she loves me and is attracted to me, agrees i do more than enough to help out around the house. When asked if she could change something about our marriage she would have me show more interest in her family, spend more time with them etc...

In summary she listened to all of my concerns but either denied that there was a problem or acknowledged the problem but had no intention to try and change anything.


----------



## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Toshiba2020 said:


> In summary she listened to all of my concerns but either denied that there was a problem or acknowledged the problem but had no intention to try and change anything.


It sounds like you did what you needed to do. It is possible that she has simply lost her drive for reasons she doesn't know and it may be related to her BC 

If you don't mind me being nosy, did you guys have sex immediately after this talk? Did you talk about specifics about initiation or ways to plan to have more sex?


----------



## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

And given you proved your point, and she admitted you won't be here in 5 years if it continues...... and she at least partially admits the problem but has offered nothing to help rememdy this situation... what is the consequence of her not taking your issues seriously? You should start there.

She's basically saying... well ok I see your point. Let's continue as it.

Next move is yours........ have you read mem's emotional temperature thread?


----------



## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I tried this once.

2008 was 3 times
2009 to halfway through 2010 was 0...zero!

The bottom line is a LD spouse knows exactly how little sex they have...they use the oblivious excuse as a smokescreen. It's weak and pathetic. 

It probably won't help your cause much at all though.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Lionelhutz said:


> It sounds like you did what you needed to do. It is possible that she has simply lost her drive for reasons she doesn't know and it may be related to her BC
> 
> If you don't mind me being nosy, did you guys have sex immediately after this talk? Did you talk about specifics about initiation or ways to plan to have more sex?


No, the talk was 2 weeks ago, no effort to initiate sex since. The first night she said she was not in the mood and then said she was sorry, ive tried a few times to give her back rubs and even jumped in the shower with her one day but was shot down.

I tried to talk about a plan to fix things and she replied "im not going to plan sex or how to change things, it will happen when it happens"



eagleclaw said:


> And given you proved your point, and she admitted you won't be here in 5 years if it continues...... and she at least partially admits the problem but has offered nothing to help rememdy this situation... what is the consequence of her not taking your issues seriously? You should start there.
> 
> She's basically saying... well ok I see your point. Let's continue as it.
> 
> Next move is yours........ have you read mem's emotional temperature thread?


She appears content the way things are, no desire to change and no desire to meet me even half way on what i need to be happy. Its frustrating that she can devote countless hours to her family, her career, her hobbies yet cant find an hour or two every week to be intimate with her husband...btw i havent read that thread, can you send me a link?



sinnister said:


> I tried this once.
> 
> 2008 was 3 times
> 2009 to halfway through 2010 was 0...zero!
> ...


true, she always claimed we had more sex than we did and when i confronted her with the facts she admitted she had a "general idea of how often". and she knows how important sex is to me yet sexless month after month goes by and she does nothing to change the situation. Even after telling her i wont live in a sexless marriage forever she has shown no desire to change things.


----------



## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Toshiba2020 said:


> No, the talk was 2 weeks ago, no effort to initiate sex since. The first night she said she was not in the mood and then said she was sorry, ive tried a few times to give her back rubs and even jumped in the shower with her one day but was shot down.
> 
> I tried to talk about a plan to fix things and she replied "im not going to plan sex or how to change things, it will happen when it happens"
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear this. It does sound like options are pretty bleak at this stage. Others may have more hope for you, but this situation does not seem to hold out any real chance for change. My own view is it is time for the 180.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Lionelhutz said:


> I'm sorry to hear this. It does sound like options are pretty bleak at this stage. Others may have more hope for you, but this situation does not seem to hold out any real chance for change. My own view is it is time for the 180.


i appreciate any input though. Whenever i talk to my family or close friends about it they basically tell me the same thing that you have said.


----------



## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Good that you've talked, sorry as to the result. Your wife, like many LD wives really think it is no dealbreaker, that it is what it is.

I wish I could understand women, especially those who orgasm close to 100% of the time, where sex is fun and natural and not some big production (i.e. 30 minutes start to finish) and why they at the end of day think the whole thing a joke. 

They think men are horndogs, sex pigs, obsessed and teenage boys because they want it 1-3X/wk....

I read all these threads, and while not thrilled, know I am doing pretty darn well, but still shake my head not understanding that is going on.

BTW, you haven't mentioned your ages and if any kids.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Good that you've talked, sorry as to the result. Your wife, like many LD wives really think it is no dealbreaker, that it is what it is.
> 
> I wish I could understand women, especially those who orgasm close to 100% of the time, where sex is fun and natural and not some big production (i.e. 30 minutes start to finish) and why they at the end of day think the whole thing a joke.
> 
> ...


25 years old, no kids. here is the full story if you are interested.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/41086-newlywed-desperate-help.html


----------



## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Not bothering to read (may have when first posted), but you're only 25 years old and no kids. Time to throw in the towel.


----------



## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html

Two points... you say you won't live in a sexless marriage - but your actions say otherwise thus far. The link above is a starting place for conveying a different message.

Also - If this is her sexdrive and priortizing of you now.... at 25. What do you see happening after children... in your 30's.... in your 40's and beyond. 

You better set the bar NOW. And either find she cares enough about you to try and meet you in the middle or move on. The boundries and consequences you set now will apply and effect you both for the rest of your marriage. THIS, is the most important time of your marriage.

And if you are not compatible and she refuses to change now married, seriously consider moving on rather than signing on for a life of frustration while your still "pre kids"


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Like others have stated, I think that showing her the calendar could be a very bad idea. Someone mentioned what's the worst that can happen... well it's not less sex, imo the worst thing that could happen is that you hurt her on an emotional level which could have backlash in other parts of your married life.

I'm in a similar situation to you, and I'd suggest focusing more on what she does/doesn't like about sex. If you find out that there's something she doesn't like or wants more out of your sex life, the frequency may later take care of itself.

In my marriage my wife simply didn't understand how important sex is for men. Once she read some books and we talked more about it she became a lot more willing to have sex with me more frequently... though not saying that our problems are solved, but it helped a lot.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

eagleclaw said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html
> 
> Two points... you say you won't live in a sexless marriage - but your actions say otherwise thus far. The link above is a starting place for conveying a different message.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of the Thermostate post but disagree with others.

For example i am probably the Warm person and on multiple occassions i have wondered maybe im being to easy, so i played hard to get, instead of bugging her for sex i pulled away did my own thing and showed no interest in sex, hoping maybe it would cause her to notice the lack of attention and she would start trying harder. Didnt work, infact she seemed glad to be left alone. Also, about having talks, i always start the talks as she never does, so a few times i when there was obviously tension in the air i just sat back and waited for her to talk to me, about 3 weeks went by with all this tension and i final gave it and started the talk, she was extremely made i waited so long and i asked why didnt you say something then, she responded with "thats not how i do things"


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> Like others have stated, I think that showing her the calendar could be a very bad idea. Someone mentioned what's the worst that can happen... well it's not less sex, imo the worst thing that could happen is that you hurt her on an emotional level which could have backlash in other parts of your married life.
> 
> I'm in a similar situation to you, and I'd suggest focusing more on what she does/doesn't like about sex. If you find out that there's something she doesn't like or wants more out of your sex life, the frequency may later take care of itself.
> 
> In my marriage my wife simply didn't understand how important sex is for men. Once she read some books and we talked more about it she became a lot more willing to have sex with me more frequently... though not saying that our problems are solved, but it helped a lot.


Well i did show her the facts. You can read her response in my updated a few posts up. She knows how important it is to me and i dont think books will help, infact ive bought books, she never read them, ive sent her links to websites and forums, she never read them, ive recommended therapy, she refused to go, i tried to "spice up" our sex life, she refused to try the items i purchased, i bought her a victoria secret gift card, she came home with t-shirts and pants, ive gone with her several times after to help her pick out something for the bedroom, she never wore anythign she bought, infact all the items are sitting in their original bags, with reciepts in the back of our closet.

I guess a few months ago i finally gave up and just recently i joined her looking for more advice as i have exhausted all other forms of help including my parents and friends who im sure are sick of hearing about my problems.


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Toshiba2020 said:


> Well i did show her the facts. You can read her response in my updated a few posts up. She knows how important it is to me and i dont think books will help, infact ive bought books, she never read them, ive sent her links to websites and forums, she never read them, ive recommended therapy, she refused to go, i tried to "spice up" our sex life, she refused to try the items i purchased, i bought her a victoria secret gift card, she came home with t-shirts and pants, ive gone with her several times after to help her pick out something for the bedroom, she never wore anythign she bought, infact all the items are sitting in their original bags, with reciepts in the back of our closet.
> 
> I guess a few months ago i finally gave up and just recently i joined her looking for more advice as i have exhausted all other forms of help including my parents and friends who im sure are sick of hearing about my problems.


I would honestly ask her if she loves you. Assuming she says yes, ask her what she would expect from you if there was a need she had and you refused to study or seek professional help.

I described it this way to my wife once: Imagine if I didn't want to talk to you. If you had to try and initiate every conversation with me, and often times I cut you short or left the room. How would that make you feel? Wouldn't you feel unloved and unimportant?

I went on to explain to her that for me sex was like conversation (not that I don't enjoy conversing with my wife lol). When I initiate it if I'm constantly turned away I feel unloved, like I'm the lowest priority in her life. Once in a while is not a problem but constant rejection to sexual advances left me feeling like vacuuming the floor was more important than me.

Not sure if this will help at all, I know it helped my wife start to see things differently.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> I would honestly ask her if she loves you. Assuming she says yes, ask her what she would expect from you if there was a need she had and you refused to study or seek professional help.
> 
> I described it this way to my wife once: Imagine if I didn't want to talk to you. If you had to try and initiate every conversation with me, and often times I cut you short or left the room. How would that make you feel? Wouldn't you feel unloved and unimportant?
> 
> ...


actually i basically said that exactly to my wife, i started by asking her what she loved about being married to me and what makes her happy, without missing a beat she said our conversations, she loves talking to me after a long hard day at work, and likes to sit next to me at night while she watches tv. i said what if i ignored you when you came home, what if i went into the office and played video games all night while you watched tv in the other rooms, how would that make you feel, she said sad, lonely, unloved, etc...i then compared the importance of sex for me to that of conversation for her. She said she knows how important sex is to me, i then asked her why she doesnt have sex with me if she knows how important it is to me, she said that sex isnt important to her so shes doesnt want to do it. I said well conversation isnt that important to me so i guess i just wont bother to do it, she said well then i wont be happy. I asked her if she thought its fair to expect me to do the things that make her happy (conversation) and for her to not do the things that make me happy (sex)....at which point she had no response.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> Well i did show her the facts. You can read her response in my updated a few posts up. She knows how important it is to me and i dont think books will help, infact ive bought books, she never read them, ive sent her links to websites and forums, she never read them, ive recommended therapy, she refused to go, i tried to "spice up" our sex life, she refused to try the items i purchased, i bought her a victoria secret gift card, she came home with t-shirts and pants, ive gone with her several times after to help her pick out something for the bedroom, she never wore anythign she bought, infact all the items are sitting in their original bags, with reciepts in the back of our closet.
> 
> I guess a few months ago i finally gave up and just recently i joined her looking for more advice as i have exhausted all other forms of help including my parents and friends who im sure are sick of hearing about my problems.


I'm confused now...
Is this really about LD or about her initiating and wearing lingerie or trying "certain things" that you want?


----------



## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

That's kinda the point. She won't change to meet your needs, but she will probably change to meet her own needs. That is why there needs to be consequences. Her ignoring your needs should have a cause and effect relationship where she is now deprioritized by you as well.


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Well it's just my two cents, but I would encourage you to keep loving her and making her feel loved. I don't know your wife well enough, but I can't imagine that she will go the extra mile for a man who doesn't continue to meet her needs.

Do you and your wife go out on date nights ever? I know for my wife, I try and make time to go out on a date once a month (sometimes I'm bad and it stretches out to once every 3-4 months).

I don't try to pressure her into thinking that my taking her out is a ploy to get sex from her... there are times we have gone out and then just come home and relaxed. I've found for me she's often times a lot more in the mood after a nice dinner and doing something else fun. For us money isn't infinite, so I try and get creative at times. I take her roller skating, local play (i.e. affordable), minor league baseball game, etc... Basically something to break out of the normal routine. I've also had in house dates: where I've cooked her a meal (or ordered take out and served it nicely at home), candle light baths (that's a fun one), etc.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> actually i basically said that exactly to my wife, i started by asking her what she loved about being married to me and what makes her happy, without missing a beat she said our conversations, she loves talking to me after a long hard day at work, and likes to sit next to me at night while she watches tv. i said what if i ignored you when you came home, what if i went into the office and played video games all night while you watched tv in the other rooms, how would that make you feel, she said sad, lonely, unloved, etc...i then compared the importance of sex for me to that of conversation for her. She said she knows how important sex is to me, i then asked her why she doesnt have sex with me if she knows how important it is to me, she said that sex isnt important to her so shes doesnt want to do it. I said well conversation isnt that important to me so i guess i just wont bother to do it, she said well then i wont be happy. I asked her if she thought its fair to expect me to do the things that make her happy (conversation) and for her to not do the things that make me happy (sex)....at which point she had no response.


This. Screams to me that it is "sex" to her, not an intimate moment. She's getting her emotional needs met by talking. now, sex is a duty to keep you happy

Meaning... the sex you are having isn't an emotional thing between the two of you. Or she would be wanting more.

This makes me think of the basics..a woman who feels used for sex won't want to have sex, isn't going to get enjoyment out of it, and it's going to just "let" someone use her. Sounds stupid, I know, but sometimes that is what is going on in a woman's mind. 

Might not be your doing. Might be her past. Might be that all the talking about needing sex has been taken in a context that it's a chore she must do.. or else you won't meet her needs.

Ask her. Does she have a sense of sexuality? Did she ever? Is having sex a bonding experience, at all?


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

deejov said:


> I'm confused now...
> Is this really about LD or about her initiating and wearing lingerie or trying "certain things" that you want?


Well i dont need lingerie, toys or anything like that, i only tried those things in hopes that it would spark interest in her. Sure those things are nice but Im not seeking advice on how to get my wife to have wild crazy bounce of the walls sex, im trying to find out a way get my wife to have sex at all, i think its a fundemental part of marriage and without it i think we are destine for divorce. (We do have other issues as well but only focusing on the sex in this forum)



Browncoat said:


> Well it's just my two cents, but I would encourage you to keep loving her and making her feel loved. I don't know your wife well enough, but I can't imagine that she will go the extra mile for a man who doesn't continue to meet her needs.
> 
> Do you and your wife go out on date nights ever? I know for my wife, I try and make time to go out on a date once a month (sometimes I'm bad and it stretches out to once every 3-4 months).
> 
> I don't try to pressure her into thinking that my taking her out is a ploy to get sex from her... there are times we have gone out and then just come home and relaxed. I've found for me she's often times a lot more in the mood after a nice dinner and doing something else fun. For us money isn't infinite, so I try and get creative at times. I take her roller skating, local play (i.e. affordable), minor league baseball game, etc... Basically something to break out of the normal routine. I've also had in house dates: where I've cooked her a meal (or ordered take out and served it nicely at home), candle light baths (that's a fun one), etc.


i tried not meeting her needs and it just made things worse so i agree with your first point. We do go out on dates, usually only once a week as we watch her brother the other 5-6 nights of the week. Usually dinner, maybe a movies, a baseball game, sometimes hang out with friends, etc...but after that i have tried letting her relax when we get home and she just falls asleep and if i try and to keep her awake and jump right into sex after we get home before she gets tired she gets mad. Either way it doesnt happen.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> Well i dont need lingerie, toys or anything like that, i only tried those things in hopes that it would spark interest in her. Sure those things are nice but Im not seeking advice on how to get my wife to have wild crazy bounce of the walls sex, im trying to find out a way get my wife to have sex at all, i think its a fundemental part of marriage and without it i think we are destine for divorce. (We do have other issues as well but only focusing on the sex in this forum)


 
Which brings up the next question... what is she resentful about?


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Toshiba2020 said:


> i tried not meeting her needs and it just made things worse so i agree with your first point. We do go out on dates, usually only once a week as we watch her brother the other 5-6 nights of the week. Usually dinner, maybe a movies, a baseball game, sometimes hang out with friends, etc...but after that i have tried letting her relax when we get home and she just falls asleep and if i try and to keep her awake and jump right into sex after we get home before she gets tired she gets mad. Either way it doesnt happen.


Sometimes folks have different energy levels at different times of the day. I know I'm a night owl, but my wife is more of a morning person. I have to either catch her on Saturday morning early before the kids need us, or try and make time in the middle of the day. I find she has a lot more energy for sex at those times.

Deejov I agree, I know my wife talks about how she feels like sex is another demand on her at the end of the day sometimes. That's why dating works for me, I just know that if I want a shot at making love I have to catch her before she starts getting sleepy, or I try to ride that wave of good will the next morning.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

deejov said:


> This. Screams to me that it is "sex" to her, not an intimate moment. She's getting her emotional needs met by talking. now, sex is a duty to keep you happy
> 
> Meaning... the sex you are having isn't an emotional thing between the two of you. Or she would be wanting more.
> 
> ...


She says sex doesnt make her feel close to me, like afterwards she feels not much different than before we had sex. She says it feels good most of the time, but yet has no desire, doesnt think about it, has never had a sexual fantasy etc... Shes never dated anyone other than me so she doesnt have experience but a bigger problem is her lack of desire to learn, to try to experient etc, she just doesnt care it seems like. She has also said that its not her "duty" to have sex with me and i agree but its also an important to me and and ingeneral important to a healthy marriage. She used to be more interested in sex, when we dated it was a multiple times a week thing, we tried new positions, we talked about it alot but then a few months before wedding it tappered off, and has got worse ever since, something changed and i dont know what. Ive tried asking her about it but she doesnt feel that she has changed, she doesnt remember having sex 2-3 times a week when we first dated.


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

deejov said:


> Which brings up the next question... what is she resentful about?


I know for my wife sex isn't compartmentalized as a separate issue, her desire is tied in with a ton of other stuff. I think us guys are just wired more simply in that regard.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

deejov said:


> Which brings up the next question... what is she resentful about?


um, i dont think she is resentful about anything. Not really sure what you meant by that question thought, sorry


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> Sometimes folks have different energy levels at different times of the day. I know I'm a night owl, but my wife is more of a morning person. I have to either catch her on Saturday morning early before the kids need us, or try and make time in the middle of the day. I find she has a lot more energy for sex at those times.
> 
> Deejov I agree, I know my wife talks about how she feels like sex is another demand on her at the end of the day sometimes. That's why dating works for me, I just know that if I want a shot at making love I have to catch her before she starts getting sleepy, or I try to ride that wave of good will the next morning.


i dont think we have had sex at night for maybe a 6 months to a year. So basically i get two chances a week, saturday and sunday morning and even then she usually says something like "we over slept" or "we have so much to do today" 



Browncoat said:


> I know for my wife sex isn't compartmentalized as a separate issue, her desire is tied in with a ton of other stuff. I think us guys are just wired more simply in that regard.


i think thats part of the problem, with her 50+ hr work weeks, her needy family, and everything else she has going on in life she doesnt have the time for sex or often even time for me. Ive brought this up but talking about how she works to much is useless as she says she has no control over it and her family is a SUPER touchy subject, even the most innocent comment about her spending to much time with her family can send her into a multi day fit where she refuses to talk to me.


----------



## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Toshiba2020 said:


> She says sex doesnt make her feel close to me, like afterwards she feels not much different than before we had sex. She says it feels good most of the time, but yet has no desire, doesnt think about it, has never had a sexual fantasy etc... Shes never dated anyone other than me so she doesnt have experience but a bigger problem is her lack of desire to learn, to try to experient etc, she just doesnt care it seems like. She has also said that its not her "duty" to have sex with me and i agree but its also an important to me and and ingeneral important to a healthy marriage. She used to be more interested in sex, when we dated it was a multiple times a week thing, we tried new positions, we talked about it alot but then a few months before wedding it tappered off, and has got worse ever since, something changed and i dont know what. Ive tried asking her about it but she doesnt feel that she has changed, she doesnt remember having sex 2-3 times a week when we first dated.


What changed is you got married and she got complacent. Precisely why you need to upset the applecart. She needs to learn that the very things that were in play early on that brought you two together, and attracted you to marry her, are ESSENTIAL to you two staying together. If she thinks the old "bait and switch" routine will work then she will stick with plan A.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Yeah, I agree. Most of the time the lack of sex is a sympton of something outside the bedroom. 

Something changed alright. She won't say what it is, but I would guess a few thing here..

It sounds like she really does 'hear' that you are saying she has a duty as a wife to give you sex or else the marriage isn't real. If she is not feeling loved or appreicated, but doesn't want to live alone.. she'll give it. But you can't make her WANT it or enjoy it. 
Resentment 101. you will get the bare minumum she can get away with, to keep you from divorcing her.

Why?

Could be a number of things.
Loss of respect
You are too nice
Resentment over something. Not feeling heard. Going out with the guys too much. Feeling overburdened with the house. Pushing her to experiment or do things that make her feel "used".

Bottom line... try to consider this thought:
Outside the bedroom issues ARE the bedroom issues.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> She says sex doesnt make her feel close to me, like afterwards she feels not much different than before we had sex. She says it feels good most of the time, but yet has no desire, doesnt think about it, has never had a sexual fantasy etc... Shes never dated anyone other than me so she doesnt have experience but a bigger problem is her lack of desire to learn, to try to experient etc, she just doesnt care it seems like. *She has also said that its not her "duty" to have sex with me and i agree but its also an important to me and and ingeneral important to a healthy marriage.* She used to be more interested in sex, when we dated it was a multiple times a week thing, we tried new positions, we talked about it alot but then a few months before wedding it tappered off, and has got worse ever since, something changed and i dont know what. Ive tried asking her about it but she doesnt feel that she has changed, she doesnt remember having sex 2-3 times a week when we first dated.


To me, this is the key point. Because sex is not important to her, she does not care if it is important to you. She is also clearly communicating that keeping you happy and meeting your needs is just not that important to her. To her, marriage is one-sided, based on her reaction when you quit worrying about her needs.

As a first tact, I would go read the Married Man's Sex Life. While not fool proof, there is some really good information in there. Work on yourself and see what of this might work. Give it a short, definite time (4-6 weeks) to see if things improve.

If they don't, go back to turning down the thermostat. Be happy and upbeat, but pull back and be less available. Look out for and take care of yourself. When she raises the issue, calmly explain that you don't feel like a priority in her life, so you need to look after yourself more. Then let her talk. Keep calm and keep telling her versions of this. She will likely try to make it about sex. You should respond that while sex is a symptom, it is not the reason. The reason is that you don't feel like your happiness is a priorty. She will likely be ticked, but so what. Stand your ground and stand up for yourself.

To be clear, a big part of the reason this can be effective is that it aligns your words and your actions. If you complain in words, but then keep doing the same things for her, your actions are in conflict with your words. Aligning words and actions avoids confusion and prevents her from selecting the message she wants.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

eagleclaw said:


> What changed is you got married and she got complacent. Precisely why you need to upset the applecart. She needs to learn that the very things that were in play early on that brought you two together, and attracted you to marry her, are ESSENTIAL to you two staying together. If she thinks the old "bait and switch" routine will work then she will stick with plan A.


how do i "upset the apple cart", i mean ive tried giving her the cold shoulder, not talking etc in hopes of causing her to feel the lack of appreciatetion and love that i feel and maybe she would get the hint but it doesnt work.



deejov said:


> Yeah, I agree. Most of the time the lack of sex is a sympton of something outside the bedroom.
> 
> Something changed alright. She won't say what it is, but I would guess a few thing here..
> 
> ...


i see my friends a few times a month but shes always with me. she even admits that i do as much if not more house work than she does. i suppose it could be a loss of respect or being too nice, maybe shes attracted to bad boy but just cant admit it or doesnt realize it.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> To me, this is the key point. Because sex is not important to her, she does not care if it is important to you. She is also clearly communicating that keeping you happy and meeting your needs is just not that important to her. To her, marriage is one-sided, based on her reaction when you quit worrying about her needs.
> 
> As a first tact, I would go read the Married Man's Sex Life. While not fool proof, there is some really good information in there. Work on yourself and see what of this might work. Give it a short, definite time (4-6 weeks) to see if things improve.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. If she is resentful about something.. it will come out when you start doing this. She will give you the reasons why she isn't having sex with you.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

deejov said:


> I agree with this. If she is resentful about something.. it will come out when you start doing this. She will give you the reasons why she isn't having sex with you.


While generally true, it does not always work. Some people prefer the blanket of their righteous indignation and martyrdom to keep them warm at night. I have no idea if the OP's wife fits this decription, but I really hope not.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> To me, this is the key point. Because sex is not important to her, she does not care if it is important to you. She is also clearly communicating that keeping you happy and meeting your needs is just not that important to her. To her, marriage is one-sided, based on her reaction when you quit worrying about her needs.
> 
> As a first tact, I would go read the Married Man's Sex Life. While not fool proof, there is some really good information in there. Work on yourself and see what of this might work. Give it a short, definite time (4-6 weeks) to see if things improve.
> 
> ...


I will look into the married man sex life website and see what i can find to help me there.

As for backing down the thermostat i have been told similar things from my friends and family, that i need to focus on myself and keeping myself happy. I theory being less available should send a signal to her that im upset and that there is a problem and would in theory cause her to investigate and find the issue and try to resolve it, after all she admits that spending time with me makes her happy. But i have tired this, and all it does is makes her upset and she withdrawls, she pouts and becomes very cranky.

Right now my options are give her the attention she needs and make her happy but not get the attention i need in return and i am unhappy.

or

Focus on myself, do things i like to do, spend time with my friends and do what i can to be happy, as a result she is unhappy.

Either way im hoping that my actions will cause her to change her behavior and that hasent happened up until this point.

Im sorry if im annoying people or anything like that, but ive been at this for almost two years now with no improvement, i feel like im at a breaking point, i dont know how much longer i can continue to do this with no results and i feel like ive tried every option (although im sure i havent)


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> I will look into the married man sex life website and see what i can find to help me there.
> 
> As for backing down the thermostat i have been told similar things from my friends and family, that i need to focus on myself and keeping myself happy. I theory being less available should send a signal to her that im upset and that there is a problem and would in theory cause her to investigate and find the issue and try to resolve it, after all she admits that spending time with me makes her happy. But i have tired this, and all it does is makes her upset and she withdrawls, she pouts and becomes very cranky.


So? I mean, if she is going to pout and be cranky, rather to come to you and address the issue, that tells you something about her thinking and what she expects from the marriage.



> Right now my options are give her the attention she needs and make her happy but not get the attention i need in return and i am unhappy.
> 
> or
> 
> ...


That seems like a pretty easy decision to me. You are in a marriage with someone that does not put a priority on making you happy. In those circumstances, why would you not focus on yourself.

One thing to remember is that you meeting her needs is not her right (just as she has reminded you that her meeting your needs is not your right). Rather, it is a privilege - one that healthy couples seek to do for each other in a good marriage. It is not one way, but rather a result of all the factors in the marriage. Thus, you are not punishing her (taking away a right) when you decide to pull back, but rather deciding that you do not want to give her that privilege,


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I know you have tried this already and she got pouty and cranky... but think of it as treating yourself, not punishing her.

There is a difference in simply being busy making yourself a better person and being obvious that you are ignoring her.

If you are ignoring her, you won't be walking around smiling.

If you are focusing on YOU, you will be walking around smiling, and wanting to talk about the new thinigs you did today, and how great you feel by working out, or discovering a new hobby, or taking a class or whatever it is you are doing.
THAT is more likely to affect a change. And you WILL be happier so what do you have to lose?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Toshiba,
The foundation for a happy marriage is:
- making your partner happy directly makes you feel happy
- causing your partner distress makes you feel bad 

She lacks both. This isn't a communication issue, she flat out acknowledged this is leading you to divorce. 

This isnt fixable as she feels entitled to being catered to regarding her needs - hense the cranky response when you withdrew. But has no interest in her half the reciprocity equation. 

You are wasting your time, energy and life. Time to pull the plug. 
Also, the recovery rate after two years is close to zero. 

Next time you address this before marriage and if it starts to happen you respond quickly and firmly within a month. And when the thermostat creates tension you constructively explain you have no interest in a second marriage that is one sided.

I will look into the married man sex life website and see what i can find to help me there.

As for backing down the thermostat i have been told similar things from my friends and family, that i need to focus on myself and keeping myself happy. I theory being less available should send a signal to her that im upset and that there is a problem and would in theory cause her to investigate and find the issue and try to resolve it, after all she admits that spending time with me makes her happy. But i have tired this, and all it does is makes her upset and she withdrawls, she pouts and becomes very cranky.

Right now my options are give her the attention she needs and make her happy but not get the attention i need in return and i am unhappy.

or

Focus on myself, do things i like to do, spend time with my friends and do what i can to be happy, as a result she is unhappy.

Either way im hoping that my actions will cause her to change her behavior and that hasent happened up until this point.

Im sorry if im annoying people or anything like that, but ive been at this for almost two years now with no improvement, i feel like im at a breaking point, i dont know how much longer i can continue to do this with no results and i feel like ive tried every option (although im sure i havent)[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

Toshiba2020 said:


> but ive been at this for almost two years now with no improvement, i feel like im at a breaking point, i dont know how much longer i can continue to do this with no results and i feel like ive tried every option (although im sure i havent)


She pulled back from having sex a few months before you got married, it got even worse after you got married, you've talked with her about it, she's not interested in doing it even though she knows how important it is to you, when you try to manipulate her by pulling back and giving her the cold shoulder she's perfectly content with still giving you no sex..and you're both only in your mid 20s with no kids.

Do you really need it spelled out?

It's not going to get better. 

EVER.

No matter how much you complain to her about it or try to find ways to fix it. She's not interested.


----------



## kittykat09 (Mar 26, 2012)

I have gone through occasional periods where I was very low-drive, sometimes lasting 1-2 months. My fiance likes to exaggerate sometimes (our running joke is "but we haven't <insert activity here, sexual or not> in *2 weeeeeeeks*") and I'm not proud of it, but there have definitely been times when I was not as giving as I should have been. 

This usually happened when I was emotionally or physically stressed. I didn't mean to withhold sex or affection, it just dropped off my list of things that sounded appealing. The worst thing about it was when my fiance tried to initiate anything sexual I would get frustrated with him for not being more "sensitive" to the fact I was stressed.

It is really hard to think back to that because he actually is very attentive to how I feel... the problem was that I tuned out the fact that he wanted to connect and wrote it off as him being "just a horny guy." 

Some things I would say are

1. There may be something wrong with her. It is very possible there is a hormonal imbalance of some sort, whether it is depression or something else. If it is some sort of depression talking, she might need a hand getting that sorted out since depression is demotivating. 

If it isn't depression, you might need to figure out if it is something you can live with the rest of your life. It isn't shallow or being a pig to want sex in a marriage.

2. We womenfolk live in an age where we are told that if we aren't in the mood, no one has the right to try to change our mind. Simultaneously, we are told men are *always* horny, they just want sex, they will say whatever they need to to bed you, etc. It's a terrible situation. 

Yes, we should absolutely reserve the right to say no. However, to boil a husband's sexual desire down to just a physical thing is an injustice to both men and women. I know I didn't fully understand that and probably still don't completely... We are told that "men connect physically" but we told in a way that makes it sound inferior, and again, like it is an excuse they give us because they are just horny and will say anything to get sex. 

She might honestly not believe you when you say it is something you need, because the importance of a physical connection may just sound like a bad pick-up line to her if she doesn't understand. This honestly might be where a lot of the problems you are having come from. 

You could try having her read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands by Laura Schlessinger. Is the woman right about everything? Doubtful. But it is a woman talking about the importance of sex to men, and I know it gave me some food for thought.

Alternatively, she might need to figure out a way to initiate sex in a way that she feels is empowering for her (as well as unpressured). For example, I love initiating sex with my fiance while he is still asleep. It is ridiculously hot to watch him get aroused, hear his breathing change, hear him moan, etc and I know he is having a darn good fantasy, too. Literally whatever it is he wants, he thinks is going on. XD 

3. If there is any threat of "if you don't do it, I will get it somewhere else" it just creates more conflict. It doesn't sound like you are this way, just throwing that out there. There is a difference between "I need this to feel connected, and if we aren't going to connect in a way that is important to me I might need to move on" and threatening to cheat. 

In the end, having been a LD partner on occasion, I can say with certainty we can change. I found out what I was doing was damaging to my relationship (even though he was VERY patient and loving with me about it) and took steps to fix it. The problem is figuring out what the actual problem is, whether it is physical, bad information, miscommunication, or what. If she isn't willing to work out it... you might need to think about finding a partner you can connect with. 

I wish you the best of luck with your situation.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

kittykat09 said:


> I have gone through occasional periods where I was very low-drive, sometimes lasting 1-2 months. My fiance likes to exaggerate sometimes (our running joke is "but we haven't <insert activity here, sexual or not> in *2 weeeeeeeks*") and I'm not proud of it, but there have definitely been times when I was not as giving as I should have been.
> 
> This usually happened when I was emotionally or physically stressed. I didn't mean to withhold sex or affection, it just dropped off my list of things that sounded appealing. The worst thing about it was when my fiance tried to initiate anything sexual I would get frustrated with him for not being more "sensitive" to the fact I was stressed.
> 
> ...


its great to her a womans pov on this. i think if she would take the time to for example read a book, do some research, talk to her Dr,etc... i believe it would open her eyes to the situation, she might better understand my needs and the mind of a man and realize the seriousness of the situation our marriage is in, as much as i love her i cant possible stay in a marriage under these condition. however, she refuses to read books, research or talk with a Dr., most likely some combo of denial and thinking that since wanting sex is my thing and since not important to her its somehow my problem to deal with. Ill bring up the topic again and maybe i can pick up that book or a similar one and give it to her.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

> The foundation for a happy marriage is:
> - making your partner happy directly makes you feel happy
> - causing your partner distress makes you feel bad
> 
> ...


maybe im just too kind and patient, i mean i dont want to be a jerk and i would much rather be open and honest than manipulative to change things but i feel like ive exhausted the nice guy, sit down and have a conversation approach, i mean i tried that since day one of the marriage and it hasent show results. and i think i would rather just end it than try to be mean and manipulative, i dont think it would work plus i wouldnt want to base a marriage on it.



hisfac said:


> She pulled back from having sex a few months before you got married, it got even worse after you got married, you've talked with her about it, she's not interested in doing it even though she knows how important it is to you, when you try to manipulate her by pulling back and giving her the cold shoulder she's perfectly content with still giving you no sex..and you're both only in your mid 20s with no kids.
> 
> Do you really need it spelled out?
> 
> ...


kids and family have always been a goal for me someday (hopefully before 30) but at this point i cant even fathom having children with her, first off were so unhappy, second were basically in a sexless marriage, having kids will only make what little sex there is completely disappear and life will revolve around them, third shes recently been talking about how she doesnt want to go through the process of having a kid, aka she wants to consider adoption... there are days when i seriously think a alien has taken over the women i once loved and turned her into some sexless, bitter crazy person.


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

From what I'm reading sounds like you're in a similar situation to me in many regards. The primary difference is that my wife, though reluctantly, is willing to seek help (lol with some serious prodding).

In the end though she cares that she's hurting me, and that's what she keeps reminding herself of, and why she's moving forward to try and read books and now about to start therapy.

If your wife can't see that she's hurting you she's either blind to it, and/or not listening to you (or not believing you).

If your wife understands that she's hurting you and isn't lifting a finger to do anything about it, she's not loving you back. Bottom line is when someone you love is in pain, you feel their pain.

If she's not responding because she feels unloved, I would encourage you to have her tell you in what way she feels unloved and work diligently towards that.

I would strongly encourage you to not have any children until this is resolved though.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> From what I'm reading sounds like you're in a similar situation to me in many regards. The primary difference is that my wife, though reluctantly, is willing to seek help (lol with some serious prodding).
> 
> In the end though she cares that she's hurting me, and that's what she keeps reminding herself of, and why she's moving forward to try and read books and now about to start therapy.
> 
> ...


At this point she knows what i need to be happy, knows what im lacking and that it does hurt me when she refuses to have sex with me but she doesnt seem to care, i mean we have the same conversation about every 1-2 months with no results. For example when talking about this subject recently i got done saying how i feel and she didnt repond, so ill said "does that make sense?" and she said "i hear you" i said "well i know you heard me, but how does that make you feel? does it bother you that im hurt when you reject me? that we go weeks or even months without having sex?" she said "no, if im not in the mood there is nothing i can do about it, its not my fault that youre hurt by that"

Its like she has no empathy for anyone, the thought of me being unhappy or that the unhappines was caused by her has no effect on her...just kind of a its your problem deal with it attitude. And yet if the table was turned and i was doing something to hurt her feeling she would throw a fit. For example about a month ago i decided i didnt want to go on a weekend trip with her family(normally i always do stuff with her family as i know they are important to her and that makes her happy but i was a little fed up and wanted some space), she FLIPPED OUT because i wasent willing to do something that was important to her, guess its fine for her to be upset at ne when i dont do something for her yet when she doesnt do the things i need from her its my problem... :scratchhead:

on the plus side like you said we have no children i guess. They are certainly not going to happen under these conditions and recently she has said she doesnt not desire to have her own children as the whole process of having children (being pregnant, giving birth etc) scares her. So she wants to consider adoption i guess, one more thing to add to the list of how the hell did i get myself into this mess. 

Since having joined this site i go back and read my posts as well as the responses several times a week and i cant decide if its sad or commical that it took me so long to realize how blind i was to all of this


----------



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Yeah that's just selfishness plain and simple: meet my needs, who cares about yours.

Is there a 3rd party should would listen to about this? A minister, family member, friend of hers?

You could be vague in just saying that you want to get counselling about something of big importance to you and she's not willing to go.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> Yeah that's just selfishness plain and simple: meet my needs, who cares about yours.
> 
> Is there a 3rd party should would listen to about this? A minister, family member, friend of hers?
> 
> You could be vague in just saying that you want to get counselling about something of big importance to you and she's not willing to go.


it would be a little akward but i know if her parents said something to her she would listen, i mean she goes to them for everything and they are the center of her life so if they said she was being unreasonable she certainly listen.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> At this point she knows what i need to be happy, knows what im lacking and that it does hurt me when she refuses to have sex with me but she doesnt seem to care, i mean we have the same conversation about every 1-2 months with no results. For example when talking about this subject recently i got done saying how i feel and she didnt repond, so ill said "does that make sense?" and she said "i hear you" i said "well i know you heard me, but how does that make you feel? does it bother you that im hurt when you reject me? that we go weeks or even months without having sex?" she said "no, if im not in the mood there is nothing i can do about it, its not my fault that youre hurt by that"
> 
> Its like she has no empathy for anyone, the thought of me being unhappy or that the unhappines was caused by her has no effect on her...just kind of a its your problem deal with it attitude. And yet if the table was turned and i was doing something to hurt her feeling she would throw a fit. For example about a month ago i decided i didnt want to go on a weekend trip with her family(normally i always do stuff with her family as i know they are important to her and that makes her happy but i was a little fed up and wanted some space), she FLIPPED OUT because i wasent willing to do something that was important to her, guess its fine for her to be upset at ne when i dont do something for her yet when she doesnt do the things i need from her its my problem... :scratchhead:
> 
> ...


Sadly, you have your answer. Please skip my advice on the Married Mans Sex Life and go straight to turning down the thermostat. Work on getting yourself to a place where you are ready for the divorce. She is not able or willing to meet your needs - they just are not important to her. So get your ducks in a row and start the process for separating. I don't say this lightly, I just don't see any hope absent a huge earthquake in the relationship. Even then, it may not be enough. You deserve to be happy and she deserves to be with someone that is happy with her. 

*Most critically, stop having sex with her now (even if she offers). Do not risk having a child with her.*


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> it would be a little akward but i know if her parents said something to her she would listen, i mean she goes to them for everything and they are the center of her life so if they said she was being unreasonable she certainly listen.


So she care more about their concerns than yours?


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> Just wanted to give a update, i sat down with my wife about a week ago. I let her know that our sex life wasent acceptable (not the first time shes heard that), showed her that i had kept track of the frequency, 18 times in 12 months and asked her if it bothered her that we live in a sexless marriage and that the average married couple has sex roughly 120 times a year. She said it doesnt bother her, she never worries or thinks about it. Said she would say something to her Dr about the bith control when she goes in 3 months but this is the same dr she saw 1 year ago that didnt think it was a problem. The only good news is i think she might be understanding the seriousness of the situation, i commented "is this how you want our marriage to look 5 years from now" and she replied "you wont stick around if it stays like this"


So, you have two different issues here:

1) How she feels about your sex life (frequency and acts).
2) How highly she values your relationship.

Whether you can do anything about (1) depends on why she is not bothered by your sex life. If she had trauma or other baggage, then counseling is in order. If she is just LD or not attracted to you, then there might be no solution but to "Just Do It".

Question two is an issue. Assuming sex is a deal breaker (seems like it is and she knows it, then (2) really drills down to "am I important enough for you to change your behavior?".

Your follow-up should be "how do you feel about that?" You want to tread gently but get a clear sense of her priorities. Either she's willing to meet you halfway and make you content if not satisfied, or she feels that you are disposable and is placing the onus for change solely on you. You need to know her plans so you can act accordingly.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Sadly, you have your answer. Please skip my advice on the Married Mans Sex Life and go straight to turning down the thermostat. Work on getting yourself to a place where you are ready for the divorce. She is not able or willing to meet your needs - they just are not important to her. So get your ducks in a row and start the process for separating. I don't say this lightly, I just don't see any hope absent a huge earthquake in the relationship. Even then, it may not be enough. You deserve to be happy and she deserves to be with someone that is happy with her.
> 
> *Most critically, stop having sex with her now (even if she offers). Do not risk having a child with her.*


I do want her to be happy and unfortunately i dont think i can provide her with that, she expects me to take a back seat to everything else in her life, our daily routine revolves around her family, watching her brother, picking him up after school, helping her grandmother who also lives like a block away. There are nights where her family is over from the time i get off work to the time i go to bed, often i go to bed and they are still at our home to 1 am or later during the week. I try my best to do all of this with a smile on my face and when i need a hour or two of with her a week to be intimate she is unable or unwilling to provide it. I only hope she is able to find someone who is willing to live that life style and love her for it.

No worry about having kids, its been six weeks since we had sex and i doubt it will happen anytime soon as ive basically given up asking for sex, its pointless and she seems to be happier when i dont try.



Tall Average Guy said:


> So she care more about their concerns than yours?


im not really sure, i just know that she goes to them for everything, i mean she cant buy a shirt, pair of shoes or anything without asking her parents, shes called them while grocery shopping asking if a product is good or not, wtf, just buy it and find out. I guess its not so much that she cares more about their opinion/concerns than mine its that shes not mature enough to make decisions on her own and need them to decide everything for her.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

eagleclaw said:


> That's kinda the point. She won't change to meet your needs, but she will probably change to meet her own needs. That is why there needs to be consequences. Her ignoring your needs should have a cause and effect relationship where she is now deprioritized by you as well.


Not to beat the same drum, but you cannot rely on an incentive system like this forever. You'll constantly be in a battle for her to meet your need while she strives to put forth the minimum effort that gets her need met. And that does little to prevent a situation where her needs are not something you can meet and she just walks out anyways.

You need to use an incentive system to get MC, IC, or medical intervention that may lead to a new way forward. Of course, intervention may just make it apparent that she does not care to be there for you in this manner. But at least you will know you have made every reasonable attempt to preserve the marriage (I put that qualifier in there because I do not consider enduring a bad sex life to be a reasonable expectation of you). I get the sense that having this sense of peace will be important for you (as it was for me).


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

DTO said:


> So, you have two different issues here:
> 
> 1) How she feels about your sex life (frequency and acts).
> 2) How highly she values your relationship.
> ...


I dont believe she thinks im replaceable, i mean i honestly feels she loves me but she is just unable to process the fact that I would actually leave her if i was significantly unhappy for a period of time. I think in her mind the fact that i need sex and she doesnt is my problem, not her problem or OUR problem. And i think the fact that shes not even trying bothers me so much more than the lack of sex, i mean if she had a legitimate excuse like a medial reason, or she was going to therapy, doing research and actively trying to find a solution to her low sex drive, trying to meet me half way i wouldnt be upset. The fact that she is so selfish, self centered and unwilling to show empathy makes me feel the marriage has no hope.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

DTO said:


> Not to beat the same drum, but you cannot rely on an incentive system like this forever. You'll constantly be in a battle for her to meet your need while she strives to put forth the minimum effort that gets her need met. And that does little to prevent a situation where her needs are not something you can meet and she just walks out anyways.
> 
> You need to use an incentive system to get MC, IC, or medical intervention that may lead to a new way forward. Of course, intervention may just make it apparent that she does not care to be there for you in this manner. But at least you will know you have made every reasonable attempt to preserve the marriage (I put that qualifier in there because I do not consider enduring a bad sex life to be a reasonable expectation of you). I get the sense that having this sense of peace will be important for you (as it was for me).


Sadly my efforts to get her to MC or any other form of professional or medical help have failed time and time again. At this point i feel i have made every effort i can, hence the reason i have turned to this forum, in desperation for any other options that might help me. As far as the expectations of marriage go, i dont think i can expect my wife to have a "duty" to have sex with me X number of times per week or w/e, but at the same time i dont think its my duty to endure a sexless marriage either. So in the end if my marriage ends in divorce imo it wont be because of the lack of sex or any of the other specific issues we have, it will be because of the lack of compromise, the inability to work together to find a reasonable solution and the one sided mentality of "its all about me" mentality.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I said it earlier, it bears repeating.
Don't talk about sex with her. Talk about the concept of marriage. The sex makes it about you being a pervert and her not feeling horny.
What you have to discuss is do the two of you agree on the idea / defintion of a marriage... Meeting needs, distancing your new family from old one... Let her say IN WORDS that she expects in a marriage she can be heavily involved with her family, that she has no obligation to meet her husbands needs, and she expects her husband to continue to meet her needs.

When you do finally set her free, she will have a very clear roadmap of things she herself can do to make herself into a proper wife to you, if that becomes her aim.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Talk about the concept of marriage....


....And marriage is inherently a sexual arrangement. Sex with your spouse consummates the covenant and sex with anyone else breaches it. That's why both parties make a solemn oath before God and Man to never have sex with anyone else, "For as long as ye both shall live...." 

That level of commitment does not come without concomitant obligation. That's simple Ethics 101 in things far less serious than marriage. 

Fidelity and taking care of a spouse sexually are different faces of the same coin.


----------

