# The note I left him after his latest temper fit



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Here is the sentence I uttered that provoked my H to scream and yell a tirade punctuated by the words "f***" and "dip-s***":

"Honey...when you say to me: 'keep it to yourself,' it is not nice."
he immediately flipped out.
I calmly told him: "the longer you continue to lose your cool...yell and cuss...make me responsible for your anger...the greater the divide grows between us...you've been forewarned."
He kept screaming and yelling, then stormed out the door.

Here is the note I wrote and left him: 

"Dear H,

It is distressing to see that much anger. It must feel pretty bad too.

It is only fair to let you know:

1. When I have an opinion, i do not want to fight with you or disrespect you. It is not a personal attack on you.
2. If it pisses you off when I want to say something, i cannot solve or fix that.
3. I am not responsible for your loss of temper.
4. I hope and pray that this does not continue.

Love,
C"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

In what circumstance will he say keep it to yourself?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Flawless

Take a bow.



credamdóchasgra said:


> Here is the sentence I uttered that provoked my H to scream and yell a tirade punctuated by the words "f***" and "dip-s***":
> 
> "Honey...when you say to me: 'keep it to yourself,' it is not nice."
> he immediately flipped out.
> ...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

lisa3girls said:


> In what circumstance will he say keep it to yourself?


Any time he thinks I'm "trying to fight" with him.
I was responding to something HE had said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Flawless
> 
> Take a bow.


Really??? I feel like I "engaged."

the moment the F-bomb left his lips, I shouldve held up my hand and walked out.
I feel like I provoked him, gave him a reason to blame him for his rage.
I honestly don't know if I'm being mind-****ed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Any time he thinks I'm "trying to fight" with him.
> I was responding to something HE had said.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like you are expressing a dissenting opinion?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

lisa3girls said:


> Like you are expressing a dissenting opinion?


Yes.

More like....he starts to feel stressed that I disagree about something....

So today he said, while I was talking, "I don't want to have this conversation."
so I said, "ok just let me finish first..."
he said "finish it in your head" or "keep it to yourself" or something...
I said "no, you and I are talking, I'll finish my sentence." (at this point we WERENT arguing; in fact, I was summarizing both of our points of view.)

5 min later I said "when you say that to me, it's not nice."

Many of you might tell me I shouldn't have THIS or shouldn't have THAT....

But do you realize this man flew into an F-bomb laden tirade the SECOND I stood up for myself?
Someone tell me---is THAT really my fault?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Has he considered or has it been suggested that he has anger management issues and should either attend anger management counseling or a group to deal with this?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Yes.
> 
> More like....he starts to feel stressed that I disagree about something....
> 
> ...


No, he has problems controlling himself.

Is this a man-woman issue?

It sounds like he explodes when he feels he is being "talked to" or "questioned" by a woman?

Based on the history he has with his mother - could this be a woman (female) thing?

Just wondering...or does he act the same way with men when they question him or express an opinion?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Has he considered or has it been suggested that he has anger management issues and should either attend anger management counseling or a group to deal with this?


Only by me.

His response: 

Yelling, sarcastically: 

"oh yeah, I get SOOO angry!!! Like I fly into f-ing ROAD RAGE all the f-ing TIME or something!!!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Yes.
> 
> More like....he starts to feel stressed that I disagree about something....
> 
> ...


Mine sort of does this too... I don't want to talk about this...or he will say stupid things like 'Oh of course "I" am always wrong and "YOU" and always right'-- which of course isn't even remotely what I said or even implied


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> No, he has problems controlling himself.
> 
> Is this a man-woman issue?
> 
> ...


There's definitely woman bitterness in there.

DEFINITELY.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Only by me.
> 
> His response:
> 
> ...


To that I would say:

"And you're right."


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> There's definitely woman bitterness in there.
> 
> DEFINITELY.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That may be the root cause of a lot of negative behavior directed towards YOU.

Definitely.

Don't know what you could do about it though - it's not like you can snap your fingers and switch (or would even want to)!


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

If my mother had ever dared stand up to my father (angry *******) he would have done the same thing. 

He's threatened by the shifting of power in your home that's all. I'm with MEM I think you did fabulous!!


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

He was WAY out of line. Good job on the response. You are two adults, and you should be able to have a debate or dissenting opinions without him acting like a douche.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I shouldve just given him a "look" and walked away when he told me keep it to myself.
Mightve had more impact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Can I just add one thing...

Last night we had sex..."nice sex," felt intimate, I know I was "feeling it" emotionally.

Afterward, lying there, I said "honey..."
his "grunt" in response sounded annoyed, not lovey-dovey.
So then he said "I love you" after a few min...

This morning I woke up and got 3 hours of work done, by the time he rolled out of bed at noon. NOON.
I'm cheerful, happy. He's mopey, groggy, pouty-faced.

He needs to feel his own misery and wake the F up to do something about it!!!!
I'm sick of taking the brunt of his crap attitude!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Can I just add one thing...
> 
> Last night we had sex..."nice sex," felt intimate, I know I was "feeling it" emotionally.
> 
> ...


Don't have sex with him. He is emotionally abusing you. Take this off the table, and it will change the dynamic of the relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AvaTara539 (Apr 10, 2011)

Well done, love the note! If it happens repeatedly however you should have some specific ramifications for him instead of just saying "I hope this doesn't continue".


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

He emailed a reply to each point on the note with detailed blameshifting.

I emailed back:

"yes I share in the responsibility for our conflicts. But honey...the anger..."

his reply:

"...will continue as long as you keep making a big deal out of it."

I replied: 

"screaming and cussing IS making a big deal. When will you see that?"

then I came home, where he'd made us dinner.

He said "don't even think I'm remotely calm enough to talk to you right now."

I said "good, I don't want you to talk to me unless you are calm. And when you do get yourself there, we will need to talk at some point. I hope you can get yourself calm."

20 minutes later I said "thank you for making dinner" and walked out the door.

He didn't even look up from what he was doing.

I'm taking myself to the movies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AvaTara539 (Apr 10, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> He emailed a reply to each point on the note with detailed blameshifting.
> 
> I emailed back:
> 
> ...


Criminy! Run as fast as your feet can carry you!!! Anyone who blames someone else for their anger... ugh. I would never have the patience to deal with that! If he doesn't want to see an MC I would leave his psychologically abusive a** in a blink!


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Has he considered or has it been suggested that he has anger management issues and should either attend anger management counseling or a group to deal with this?


I'm thinking that's not it. It sounds more pathological to go from zero to Chris Brown in 1 second. Either that or the lead up is not what we're lead to believe. Anger management is one thing. Going full Aileen Wuornos is something else. 

He's a brutal control freak and a dominating power master for starters. With a bit of antisocial behavior tossed in.


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## Leah L (Jan 11, 2011)

It occurred to me that you are asking him to not be/do something....cuss, calm down etc. Its aggravating to be told to do something, particularly emotionally. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT defending his behavior, its terrible and I think you are doing great. 

I'm just pondering outloud that you can control yourself, and you have, and you have evolved, learning different ways to respond etc. That's all good! 

But in the end we cannot make anyone do anything. So as much as you ask it will fall on deaf ears unless he makes that personal decision to try or to change.

I know you aren't there yet (if ever - that's ok!) but that's what finally hit home with me. 

I stopped asking my hubby to do/change anything, truth be told I gave up. The difference came (so far anyway) in that moment, when I stopped trying to change anything in him, I shifted 100% to me. "I'm unhappy therefore I plan to do XY and Z in response to MY UNHAPPINESS".

As you know I told him what I intend to do. That's when he seems to have realized the ramifications of his actions, his part in this play. Now he is doing all the things I have wanted or "asked". And it hasn't been just roses for us, he raised some very touchy topics recently but it went totally different, no melt downs. We still disagree but this time he accepted that RESPECTFULLY and didn't try to strong arm me etc.

Everything tells me lately my husband did hear me all along, he just had no incentive to change. 

Please know I do not have a black cloud of looming divorce swinging over his head, LOL  That's the best part, I made my decisions all about me and what I needed to do to be happy. Its like I own the "happy wagon" and I let him know its rolling out of town because the weather sucks 

Now he wants to hitch a ride out of town too! 

Best, Leah


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Creda,
At some point you might ask him: would you be ok if I taped all our conversations?
I want to do that for a month and then sit with a MC and have him/her tell us how to
Improve the way we interact. 

If he declines I would ask him how he believes things are going to improve.

Btw - yelling and cursing ARE big things. 




credamdóchasgra said:


> He emailed a reply to each point on the note with detailed blameshifting.
> 
> I emailed back:
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Im getting closer and closer to giving up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Creda,
> At some point you might ask him: would you be ok if I taped all our conversations?
> I want to do that for a month and then sit with a MC and have him/her tell us how to
> Improve the way we interact.
> ...


A conversation IS coming.

Including: "what ARE you willing to do?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

I know I have anger issues (am not Creda;s spouse I assure you) Creda that was beautiful. I know I am prone to go off the handle but I am looking for someone that can redirect that and calm me down. My spouse just recently started doing it again, that was handled flawlessly if my wife would write that to me I would defnitley think. Then again your husband seems a lot more f***ed up then me when it comes to anger.

As to other posters the way women hear things and the way men hear things are differently it often does sound like you are saying you are always right and we are always wrong then again you feel that way about us men


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## Snooring (Mar 10, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> To that I would say:
> 
> "And you're right."



:iagree:


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm glad he didnt reply to my last email on the topic:
"screaming and cussing IS 'making a big deal about it.' when will you see that?"

I texted him at 10 last night to tell him I'd be home late.

His reply: "that's your choice. just working here." ::

---->that's mopey/"poor unappreciated me"

He is so stubbornly clinging to a dysfunctional dynamic:
"I flip out, it's your fault, you accept and happily move on. Accepting me = accepting this behavior. Get with the program."

not gonna work, buddy. I'm standing my ground for something better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Here is my advice.
I think you have communicated everything you need to communicate in your very first post. There is no need to ever have a relationship discussion again. Any time he acts inappropriate you remind him that this goes in one direction: To divorce city. And ratchet it up until he goes or you go.

IN the meantime I would be driving all conversations to fun, pleasant topics. Like, about the things he likes to do, the things you like to do, places you and / or he like to go. The plans you have for the future.

I will point out that you are getting advice from men, and the dynamic in your marriage is that you are taking on the role of the man, and your husband is taking on the role of the woman. Which is to say you are becoming more rational and emotionally controlled and he is irrational and emotionally unstable. Now I will get flamed for being a a chauvinist but I'm not sure the answer for a woman is to man up... you should try to get him to man up.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Hicks said:


> Here is my advice.
> I think you have communicated everything you need to communicate in your very first post. There is no need to ever have a relationship discussion again. Any time he acts inappropriate you remind him that this goes in one direction: To divorce city. And ratchet it up until he goes or you go.
> 
> IN the meantime I would be driving all conversations to fun, pleasant topics. Like, about the things he likes to do, the things you like to do, places you and / or he like to go. The plans you have for the future.
> ...


I agree he needs to man up. Thank you for your advice. 

But I DO think he's fully taking on the role of "insecure man who fears intimacy, has unresolved anger at his mother, and pushes away the one woman who's ever really loved him."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

That last few sentences you have totally nailed it. Sadly I'm not sure you can fix that without counseling. Insecurity, unresolved anger, and pushing you away is almost impossible to overcome without help. Its taken therapy for me to fix those things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I just got home from therapy.
It's noon. He's lounging on the couch watching tv. WTF.

He looked up at me and said "sup" when I came in.
I half-smiled in acknowledgement, said nothing more.
Heated up lunch, made coffee, getting ready to do some work on my laptop.

Should I say anything to him? Be nice? Act like nothing happened? Give him a kiss? Look at him with pity? Make a sarcastic comment? Anything?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I just got home from therapy.
> It's noon. He's lounging on the couch watching tv. WTF.
> 
> He looked up at me and said "sup" when I came in.
> ...


I've been reading all of your posts, so I completely understand this man is full of a whole lot of crazy, but this threw me. What is so disturbing about him watching tv that makes you reply with "WTF" and wanting to make a sarcastic comment? Maybe I'm missing something...why the knee-jerk negative response to him lounging on the couch? Is he supposed to be at work or something?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MGirl said:


> I've been reading all of your posts, so I completely understand this man is full of a whole lot of crazy, but this threw me. What is so disturbing about him watching tv that makes you reply with "WTF" and wanting to make a sarcastic comment? Maybe I'm missing something...why the knee-jerk negative response to him lounging on the couch? Is he supposed to be at work or something?


I guess it bothers me to see yet more symptoms of depression and apathy. 

1. He's supposed to be "looking for work" lately.
2. It's a beautiful sunny day and he's in a dark apartment, windows drawn, at noon on Tuesday, watching "The View." It's a bit pathetic.
3. God forbid he use any of this abundant free time to take initiative to DO anything for himself or our relationship--such as pick up any of the f-ing books I've asked him to read.

It's just the picture of a person who doesn't want to help himself or our relationship.

My aggravation at this is compounded by the fact that *I* just got home from doing something proactive and challenging TO HELP MYSELF.

And so I'm a little sick of HIM accusing me of NOT DOING ANYTHING TO HELP OUR ISSUES.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I guess it bothers me to see yet more symptoms of depression and apathy.
> 
> 1. He's supposed to be "looking for work" lately.
> 2. It's a beautiful sunny day and he's in a dark apartment, windows drawn, at noon on Tuesday, watching "The View." It's a bit pathetic.
> ...


BUT REMEMBER...he's not you and you're not him.

Maybe he "can't" get out of his depressive state.

I've never been so depressed in my life that I couldn't/wouldn't function - so I don't really understand why you can't put one foot in front of the other if you just say GO.

And I never will.

But those I have talked to have told me that unless you are "in this state" you can't understand how hard it is to pull out of it.

My husband is extremely un-motivated and I know he's depressed and he knows that he is too and he knows he is un-motivated, but he says he just can't seem to get it together and doesn't know why.

Maybe he truly feels helpless and doesn't even know how to help himself.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

> I guess it bothers me to see yet more symptoms of depression and apathy.
> 
> 1. He's supposed to be "looking for work" lately.
> 2. It's a beautiful sunny day and he's in a dark apartment, windows drawn, at noon on Tuesday, watching "The View." It's a bit pathetic.
> ...


You are getting resentful, you know that right? Working on flushing that. For you. 

And you never said anything about my sex comment. You do know that sex is an outward expression of what exists inside, right? He needs to know how close you are to breaking.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> You are getting resentful, you know that right? Working on flushing that. For you.
> 
> And you never said anything about my sex comment. You do know that sex is an outward expression of what exists inside, right? He needs to know how close you are to breaking.


You're right that I need to heal my own resentment. It's more like--"how much longer can this go on before he finally takes some responsibility??"

About the sex thing....honestly I don't even know if depriving him of sex would affect him anymore, other than making HIM resent ME.

He DOESN'T approach me for sex unless he's feeling emotionally close to me...it's not like he tries for sex just after a fight, and I tow the line. If I'm not feeling it, he's not feeling it.

I'm beginning to think that "ultimatum talk" may be the ONLY thing that might wake him up.

I know it sounds nuts...but the fact that he responded at all to my note AND my text last night is a tiny indication that he might be edging closer to facing some of these issues.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Maybe he truly feels helpless and doesn't even know how to help himself.


He is stubbornly clinging to "what's always worked" in the past, in OTHER types of relationships:

HIS family
his friends
business

He is stubbornly clinging to the notion that "that's good enough" for THIS relationship--MARRIAGE.

What's "always worked" for him?

Out-yelling someone
Telling someone how it's gonna be, and that's that
Artificially coddling someone's ego to "humor them" 
Enlightening someone with his wisdom and basking in adulation and gratitude for it

In marriage counseling, it was brought to his attentoin that "what's always worked" in these other relationships may not always work in marriage.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

> I'm beginning to think that "ultimatum talk" may be the ONLY thing that might wake him up.


I'm going to be very clear with you. The thing that woke me up from my slumber was "Honey, I am detached from you. I am not in love with you anymore. I don't know what the future holds." 

He needs to know what is going on inside of you. Then, he can decide how to proceed. It really sucks that you are having to be the one step up, but, obviously, he's not going to do it. Every step you take down the resentment path makes it a longer reconciliation path if/when things do get right. He needs more than humility, he needs hope that he can be more functional in life.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> I'm going to be very clear with you. The thing that woke me up from my slumber was "Honey, I am detached from you. I am not in love with you anymore. I don't know what the future holds."
> 
> He needs to know what is going on inside of you. Then, he can decide how to proceed. It really sucks that you are having to be the one step up, but, obviously, he's not going to do it. Every step you take down the resentment path makes it a longer reconciliation path if/when things do get right. He needs more than humility, he needs hope that he can be more functional in life.


I've been waiting till I'm ready, and till I can sense he might be closer to ready to hear what's going on inside me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

Alright. If you need anything........you got many people to vent to. Lol


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## AbsolutelyFree (Jan 28, 2011)

^^^ I was going to say something similar, that choosing to withhold sex from him as some suggested would probably encase whatever resentment he has for you in cement.


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

Dedicated2Her said:


> He needs to know what is going on inside of you. Then, he can decide how to proceed. It really sucks that you are having to be the one step up, but, obviously, he's not going to do it. Every step you take down the resentment path makes it a longer reconciliation path if/when things do get right. He needs more than humility, he needs hope that he can be more functional in life.


THIS.

The longer you build up resentment, the harder it will be to accept any change he may decide to make in the future. Don't wait too long.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

> I was going to say something similar, that choosing to withhold sex from him as some suggested would probably encase whatever resentment he has for you in cement.


Maybe. But, right now, you are giving him something that he is not earning, nor, do you truly have inside of you. He has lost the "power" in his life and marriage, but, yet, he is still reaping the rewards of having that power. It is why men get addicted to porn, they don't have to do anything manly to get it.

I can tell you first hand that men without sex think a WHOLE lot clearer about the relationship and there role in the relationship when sex is off the table. Credam- do it from a scriptural level. In Corinthians 7, Paul talks about fasting for a time from sex. That way, it is out in the open. Of course, I'm sure we will see "the child" come out in him, but at least you are doing everything you know how.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

People....

I'm not as resentful as I may come across here.

Honest to God.

Therapy helps with that. 

So does:
my work (writing)
working out
praying 
my family
my friends

I laugh at this way more than someone who's being eaten up by resentment. 

I'm really not moping around with an ugly resentful outlook.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> Maybe. But, right now, you are giving him something that he is not earning, nor, do you truly have inside of you. He has lost the "power" in his life and marriage, but, yet, he is still reaping the rewards of having that power. It is why men get addicted to porn, they don't have to do anything manly to get it.
> 
> I can tell you first hand that men without sex think a WHOLE lot clearer about the relationship and there role in the relationship when sex is off the table. Credam- do it from a scriptural level. In Corinthians 7, Paul talks about fasting for a time from sex. That way, it is out in the open. Of course, I'm sure we will see "the child" come out in him, but at least you are doing everything you know how.


This is interesting...I'm going to think about this...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> People....
> 
> I'm not as resentful as I may come across here.
> 
> ...


That's great, then. Disregard my previous comment if it doesn't apply. I guess I just assumed. If I were in your situation, I'd have resentment lined up around the world and back. But it sounds like you have a great support system and an effective way to de-stress and keep your head together. Good for you


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MGirl said:


> That's great, then. Disregard my previous comment if it doesn't apply. I guess I just assumed. If I were in your situation, I'd have resentment lined up around the world and back. But it sounds like you have a great support system and an effective way to de-stress and keep your head together. Good for you


Thanks...no, I appreciate all your comments.
Of course I could spiral into resentment, and there is some.
But I don't believe in it, and it won't do any good, so I'm pulling on other resources.
I know everything is going to work out good for me in the end....with or without him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4sure (Aug 8, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Thanks...no, I appreciate all your comments.
> Of course I could spiral into resentment, and there is some.
> But I don't believe in it, and it won't do any good, so I'm pulling on other resources.
> I know everything is going to work out good for me in the end....with or without him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:
Why should you give up your joy, and zest for life, because he is being a butt. I feel the same way. Although when he sees your joyfulness, it leads him to believe: all is well, oh he's off the hook. It must not be that bad she's laughing and smiling.

That's because he believes the sun rises, and shines just for him. 

I wish you the best. I hope your marriage works, if not you will be ok. 

He doesn't realize that he needs to be free from that pent-up anger. By holding onto it, it hurts him badly.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

4sure said:


> Although when he sees your joyfulness, it leads him to believe: all is well, oh he's off the hook. It must not be that bad she's laughing and smiling.


Crap, never thought of it that way.

In any case....there WILL be a time when he'll need to face the decision whether to keep being a butt, or grow the hell up.

You won't see me here in a year with the same complaints.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> This is a strange situation.
> 
> First, he sounds very frustrated with YOU.
> 
> ...


BTDT. 

And I don't hate him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> No, he has problems controlling himself.
> 
> Is this a man-woman issue?
> 
> ...


This is most DEFINITELY true with MY husband. He would NEVER speak to a man the way he speaks to me or his mother. Never.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Maybe YOU need to find a way to get him to a "happy place".


It's not her job to 'get him' anywhere.

It's only her job to state her boundaries and then ENFORCE those boundaries when HE chooses to cross them.

Leaving the room enough times will make your point.

That said, the wording you used could have used a little more thought.

"It's not nice" is antagonistic and teaching.

Try to stay in the WYIF area: When you ABC, I feel XYZ. So from now on, if that happens, I will PQR to stop feeling XYZ.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, and the note said nothing of your boundaries. 

"I hope and pray that this does not continue" is you telling him you want him to stop. It should be telling him what YOU will do, if he doesn't. Stop telling him what to do.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

turnera said:


> Oh, and the note said nothing of your boundaries.
> 
> "I hope and pray that this does not continue" is you telling him you want him to stop. It should be telling him what YOU will do, if he doesn't. Stop telling him what to do.


:iagree:


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> This is most DEFINITELY true with MY husband. He would NEVER speak to a man the way he speaks to me or his mother. Never.


Oh, mine'll bark at anyone.

But he's particularly bitter toward his mother and every girl who ever rejected him before he met me.

The following is my compassion talking:

He does not have a solid sense of himself...sadly, this really came to a head AFTER we got married, and especially in the past few months.

For some reason, marriage brings out the terrified little boy in him, who rages like an angry beast.

And he wants ME to coddle him out of it.

He WANTS to be rewarded with love and cuddles for absolutely ANYTHING and EVERYTHING he does. Including the nasty stuff.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

turnera said:


> That said, the wording you used could have used a little more thought.
> 
> "It's not nice" is antagonistic and teaching.
> 
> Try to stay in the WYIF area: When you ABC, I feel XYZ. So from now on, if that happens, I will PQR to stop feeling XYZ.


She has it nailed here.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> Oh, and the note said nothing of your boundaries.
> 
> "I hope and pray that this does not continue" is you telling him you want him to stop. It should be telling him what YOU will do, if he doesn't. Stop telling him what to do.


I hear you.

I did say clearly, before he left the house yesterday:

"The more you do this, the worse things will get. The more you push me away, and the greater the divide grows between us. You've been forewarned."


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I hear you.
> 
> I did say clearly, before he left the house yesterday:
> 
> "The more you do this, the worse things will get. The more you push me away, and the greater the divide grows between us. You've been forewarned."


You actually are not hearing her. Your wording is preachy and a barrier to understanding.

The formula is simple

I feel
when you
Next time I will


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I hear you.
> 
> I did say clearly, before he left the house yesterday:
> 
> "The more you do this, the worse things will get. The more you push me away, and the greater the divide grows between us. You've been forewarned."


All due respect, again, it's the words you're choosing. If this is the way you always talk to him, I'm really not surprised he feels (and acts) cornered.

Forewarned? Do you use that word to anyone else? Anyone not younger than you, at least?

'the more *you* do' - 'the more *you* push' - *'you've* been warned'

Do you not see the antagonism in such speak? I guarantee, HE does.

Where is your* "I"* speech?

PS: you might have to actually practice it; it doesn't come easily if you're used to speaking in Antagonism.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

turnera said:


> All due respect, again, it's the words you're choosing. If this is the way you always talk to him, I'm really not surprised he feels (and acts) cornered.
> 
> Forewarned? Do you use that word to anyone else? Anyone not younger than you, at least?
> 
> ...


Even if it is only subconscious and not something he can articulate.

Where is your* "I"* speech?

PS: you might have to actually practice it; it doesn't come easily if you're used to speaking in Antagonism.[/QUOTE]


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera;317071
Leaving the room enough times will make your point.
That said said:


> Yeah...
> 
> I actually recorded the ****-storm...I did sound like a naggy little teacher.
> 
> ...


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Yeah...
> 
> I actually recorded the ****-storm...I did sound like a naggy little teacher.
> 
> ...


Small point, I would switch the order of the I feel and the when you. Start with I so it comes before the first you cringe.



> HOWEVER...I honestly think THIS--deflecting with humor--might be more effective:
> 
> "I can't hear you when you yell/cuss/threaten."


Then deflection until the next time is all you are going to get IMO.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> All due respect, again, it's the words you're choosing. If this is the way you always talk to him, I'm really not surprised he feels (and acts) cornered.
> 
> Forewarned? Do you use that word to anyone else? Anyone not younger than you, at least?
> 
> ...


Good points, thank you.

But no, I'm not "used to speaking in Antagonism." I don't habitually antagonize people with whom I converse.

Realize this--I'm talking to a person who's told me hundreds of times that he "doesn't give a damn how I feel."

So....if "you" statements take the wheel, it's because the "I" statements fall on deaf and indifferent ears.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

They wouldn't if you practiced enforcing your boundaries. 

Have you seen the video of the toddler who's screaming at the top of his lungs, and then the parents walk away (still filming) into another room? Baby can't see them, so he stops screaming; here he comes around the corner, sees them, and immediately starts screaming again. They move to another room again, baby stops, finds them, and picks up again. 

He only screams because you give him an audience.

And so what if your I statements fall on deaf ears? It's not your job to educate him or nag him or put him down. Rise above it. I tried telling a wise person once that I only yelled at my husband because he yelled first. She just laughed at me. "Did it fix the problem?"

Uh, no.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> "When you yell/cuss/threaten, I feel overwhelmed/stressed. So when that happens, I'm going to walk away or hold up my hand and take deep breaths to stop feeling stressed."


Perfect.



> HOWEVER...I honestly think THIS--deflecting with humor--might be more effective:
> 
> "I can't hear you when you yell/cuss/threaten."


Still educating. Still stings to hear it (from his side), so it still won't work. He may STOP, but he'll hate you.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> Then deflection until the next time is all you are going to get IMO.


Honestly, that may be good enough...when you consider the infinitesimal matters over which he loses his ****.

Such as...where we're going for lunch...my opinion about a TV show...recycling paper...STUPID THINGS...

It may just be enough to go "whoa, can't year ya when you're yelling" to stop the crazy in its tracks. He may even laugh. 

I honestly haven't reacted emotionally to him in MONTHS.

And I think that pisses him off. I think he longs for the good ol' days when *I* was the one who'd flip out over something like his use of the word "tiny."

Ahhh, memories...


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Honestly, that may be good enough...when you consider the infinitesimal matters over which he loses his ****.


So ... what? He can keep doing it until you give up? That is helpful how? 

[/QUOTE]

You say without realizing it on here how you really feel about him. I bet he feels it too. 

Honestly, set effective limits.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> They wouldn't if you practiced enforcing your boundaries.
> 
> Have you seen the video of the toddler who's screaming at the top of his lungs, and then the parents walk away (still filming) into another room? Baby can't see them, so he stops screaming; here he comes around the corner, sees them, and immediately starts screaming again. They move to another room again, baby stops, finds them, and picks up again.
> 
> He only screams because you give him an audience.


But that's not quite the scene. He doesn't follow me around and harrass me with yelling.

He doesn't pick fights or start yelling out of the blue.

It's that he CAN'T TOLERATE calm conversation once it's started. *The moment I say something that rubs him the wrong way, he either shuts down or yells/threatens to silence me.*

Then that's it.

*Then if I go quiet in response it appears that he has succeeded in silencing me.
*

It's as if my only answer is:

Say only what won't piss him off.
If you accidentally piss him off with something you say, let him react.
Shut up.
Be a sweetheart immediately thereafter.

F that.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> So ... what? He can keep doing it until you give up? That is helpful how?


Doesn't this fall into your category of lightening up?

I think that IS setting limits on overreacting.

If the roles were reversed, I would consider that effective limit-setting. 

If I were flipping out over something small and someone said, "Um..can't hear you when you yell," or "whoa...chill"

I'd say, "Oh. ok, whoops. I'll tone it down then."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

But you're not a guy.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

How do you set limits on a behavior intended to stifle you and shut you up?

"I feel disrespected when you interrupt me and tell me to keep my thought to myself. So when that happens, I am going to..."

????

"...stop talking to you entirely" ???

Do you see why I'd use humor to deflect instead of make sweeping declarations of my intentions to...drumroll...shut my mouth and leave the room? All that does is tell him that yes indeed he can shut me up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> How do you set limits on a behavior intended to stifle you and shut you up?


When you try to stifle my speech, I feel offended, and I then feel like I should keep discussing the subject. So I will.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I see why you want to use humor, but I'll ask you, since you seem to have done that before: Did it change his behavior?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> I see why you want to use humor, but I'll ask you, since you seem to have done that before: Did it change his behavior?


Yes. It shows him he can't bully me. It holds a mirror up to him so he doesn't see as much crap from me.

I feel that it's extremely important right now for me to show that I can't/won't be bullied.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> You're not going to like my answer, and neither are any other folks in here.
> 
> Maybe the guy simply is having a hard time controlling that aspect of his personality.
> 
> ...


I've tried it. It used to be a regular occurrence.
Sometimes it would yield a good result...other times the verbal onslaught I had to endure to get there just wasn't worth the return.
Now he just manipulates to the point that productive conversation is impossible.

He is closed to communication at this point.
He said "back off!!" so I am. But nothing is improving.
I'm giving him space, but somehow he resents that too.

He senses my distancing, and instead of reaching closer, he's defensively doing the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credam, have you read the book His Needs Her Needs?


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## Myopia1964 (Feb 10, 2011)

Credam,

I have been in exactly the same spot with a man who cannot/will not communicate in a healthy, direct manner. I was talked over, interrupted, shut down. If I had an opinion that differed from his I was told that I was attacking him. If I stated that I felt a particular way about something I was invalidated and told "no you, don't." I was "punished" with silent treatment and walls of avoidance (like, literally not hearing from or being able to contact him for weeks) if I engaged in anything that he called "emotionalism," which was essentially any form of expression that made him feel uncomfortable (like me having any sort of grievance at all). He on the other hand was free to rant, rave, *****, complain about me, treat me insensitively, etc., and I was simply supposed to just shut the hell up and tolerate it. 

This lead to tons and tons of resentment on my part. I gave him books to read about improving communication, I lectured him about working on our communication style and relationship dynamic. Guess what, it got me nowhere...oh, except further in trouble with him for creating "emotional crises" that he then was forced to distance himself from. I've truly never known someone more shut down than my BF. It's sad and sick...and yes, it originated in his childhood due to his mother who was unhealthily enmeshed with him.

After reading some of the codependency literature, I finally had to come to terms with the fact that the biggest problem was me...I was just bound and determined to change him. I would not accept that this was just who he was, and I constantly beat him over the head with "my perspective." And then was shocked that he didn't want to change. 

As a previous poster said, you've already told him what you need at least once and he still hasn't changed. So how does it help to repeat the same thing to him over and over in hopes that he'll hear you? All you are doing now is trying to control him. There's a great story that is shared on the codependency websites that illustrates this fruitless and frustrating need to control.

What is Wrong with Hardware Stores??? - Miracles In Progress Codependents Anonymous Group

What I really needed to do was let go and start focusing on myself. Which is what I've chosen to do. It is not helpful to beat your head against the wall again and again trying to change him...ultimately you are only responsible for yourself. He will change when HE feels like it. You need to decide if this relationship is working for you.

I am no longer in my relationship...I don't blame him, I am only responsible for myself. It makes me sad that he wasn't willing to look at himself and his contribution to our problems, and he will likely go on to repeat them in future relationships. But it's no longer my problem.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I used to admire your tenacity. Honestly, now I'm simply concerned by it. It doesn't look like tenacity any more. It just looks like dysfunction.

Here is what I think I know:

You don't like his behavior and treatment of you. Understandably so. But you also point out that he has always behaved this way and treats others poorly ... to get his way. In other words, this is who this guy is - and you are hell-bent on changing it.

He doesn't want a partner Credam, he wants an adversary, and by all appearances, you have been a pretty good one. That is the dynamic he knows. To me, it appears clear that conflict is the dynamic he gravitates to. Conflict with momentary lapses of pleasantry. 

Others have pointed out, and I don't think you deserve getting jumped, but the language you have outlined that you think is emotionally neutral? Sounds very condescending, critical and combative to me. In other words, every time you engage him, you are feeding the bear. You want him not to be escalated. You're telling him that you need to talk when he is calm ... escalates him. I'm not suggesting you roll over. I'm actually suggesting you stop engaging at all. AT ALL.

This isn't a battle you can win. Importantly? It isn't even a battle you should be trying to fight at this point.

That man you want to be married to? This guy ain't it, and is never going to be it.

Why would you suspect that he would want to change? Do you want him to change for you?


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## Myopia1964 (Feb 10, 2011)

^Yup...I agree with Deejo. This is the dynamic he knows and he doesn't want to change. This isn't a case of a slightly flawed relationship that just needs some improved communication to be better, this is a situation with an avoidant man and a woman who wants to force him to be what she needs. I say that with all due respect, because I have been exactly the same way. For a long time I couldn't see that I was the problem. 

If you want to stay with this man, you will have to adjust your expectations down in order to do so. He may someday have an epiphany and realize that he's a jerk, but not likely. If you want a partner who communicates in a healthy manner and treats you with respect, you may have to look elsewhere.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Doesn't this fall into your category of lightening up?


No lightening up is getting yourself ok with nonsense that is not important or that he has a genuine right to a different PoV like reading disrespect in the manner in which he serves you pizza.

Lightening up is NOT pretending to lighten up on real deal breakers or things that you will not tolerate. That is effectively tolerating it.



> I think that IS setting limits on overreacting.
> 
> If the roles were reversed, I would consider that effective limit-setting.
> 
> ...


If you said that to me I would think you were a world class beotch, frankly. It sounds pretty high, mightly and holier than thou.

But in the final analysis you know how to know if it is EFFECTIVE limit setting? HE gets that you mean it. And stops.


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## Myopia1964 (Feb 10, 2011)

Mom,

I think youd be right...if this man were a normal, healthy human being who had occasional communication issues (like we all do from time to time). But, if you've never lived with someone who is adversarial, defensive and closed off due to serious intimacy issues, you can't understand how frustrating this is. This isn't poor skills, it's manipulation in order to control.

Yes, Credam could probably handle her reactions better, but I have to agree with Deejo...the guy is looking to create negative reactions, he's essentially trying to create antagonism and distance. Rather than react at all, it is probably best if she just disengages.

He is not interested in working on anything...only winning and being right. He is able to control her because she keeps coming back for more.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Damn.
Bad timing that I happen to be hormonal today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AvaTara539 (Apr 10, 2011)

turnera said:


> credam, have you read the book His Needs Her Needs?


I was not a fan of his needs, her needs, and yes I did read the entire book. It employs that whole typical stereotyping of the genders (men are from mars women are from venus type of false ideology) which isn't accurate- my "needs" were closer to the male chapters than the female. And it also leans a heavy bias in favor of the men. I would recommend "reptiles in love" or "will our love last?".


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## AvaTara539 (Apr 10, 2011)

Deejo said:


> I used to admire your tenacity. Honestly, now I'm simply concerned by it. It doesn't look like tenacity any more. It just looks like dysfunction.
> 
> Here is what I think I know:
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Myopia1964 said:


> Mom,
> 
> I think youd be right...if this man were a normal, healthy human being who had occasional communication issues (like we all do from time to time). But, if you've never lived with someone who is adversarial, defensive and closed off due to serious intimacy issues, you can't understand how frustrating this is. This isn't poor skills, it's manipulation in order to control.


This is absolutely true. I am operating solely on the operating parameters that she is not yet ready to kick him to the curb.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Im getting there.
There's a lot of:
pain
emotions
hormones
confusion
alcohol

in my system at the moment.

This blows, people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

AvaTara539 said:


> I was not a fan of his needs, her needs, and yes I did read the entire book. It employs that whole typical stereotyping of the genders (men are from mars women are from venus type of false ideology) which isn't accurate- my "needs" were closer to the male chapters than the female. And it also leans a heavy bias in favor of the men. I would recommend "reptiles in love" or "will our love last?".


 The way I read it, it doesn't matter WHAT your needs or LBs are. You could be a guy who needs a bouquet of roses every day, you could be a girl who needs time on an ATV, it doesn't matter.

The only thing that matters is that your partner KNOWS what matters to you. And acts on it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> This is absolutely true. I am operating solely on the operating parameters that she is not yet ready to kick him to the curb.


 Yep, which is why I suggested reading His Needs Her Needs. If she isn't ready to leave yet, she can do the one thing that will tell her she tried everything to make sure SHE isn't contributing to the problem. After that, she can walk away knowing she did all she could.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, a good FIRST step would be to eliminate the alcohol...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> Well, a good FIRST step would be to eliminate the alcohol...


I'm out with friends. 
I don't engage with him when either of us is drinking.

I learned my lesson on that one. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cool beans. Hope you have fun!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> If she isn't ready to leave yet, she can do the one thing that will tell her she tried everything to make sure SHE isn't contributing to the problem. After that, she can walk away knowing she did all she could.


That's what I'm trying to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Clearly if this had been "all there was," I wouldn't have married the guy, people.

Myopia---I don't "keep coming back for more." I *married* him. So i'm trying to do my best in different ways. Trying *different* things, hoping something will work. If you'd married your ex-bf, you'd find it harder to just kick him to the curb,

Mom6547---Im trying to "set limits" on disrespect; disarm, defuse, deflect. And for the record, cussing and tossing pizza in a public place WAS an inappropriate overreaction, and just as seriously a "deal-breaker" as the rest of this. You weren't there to see it, but I have a feeling you wouldve wanted to "set limits" if you had been in my position. I don't get how you see the things that used to piss ME off as "mountains out of molehills," but you can't see the value of deflecting/disarming with humor. Guess no matter which way I go--upset or joking-- I'm a "world class beotch," huh?

Deejo---you're right, my language and tone are condescending. Realize that's my language when I'm under stress and under attack and just trying to limit and control the damage. Guess I'll practice that "I feel..,when you..." again and hope he starts to give a crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Clear your pm's

Friends care


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## ladymay (May 11, 2011)

turnera 
Member




Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,111 Re: The note I left him after his latest temper fit 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They wouldn't if you practiced enforcing your boundaries. 

Have you seen the video of the toddler who's screaming at the top of his lungs, and then the parents walk away (still filming) into another room? Baby can't see them, so he stops screaming; here he comes around the corner, sees them, and immediately starts screaming again. They move to another room again, baby stops, finds them, and picks up again. 

He only screams because you give him an audience.

And so what if your I statements fall on deaf ears? It's not your job to educate him or nag him or put him down. Rise above it. I tried telling a wise person once that I only yelled at my husband because he yelled first. She just laughed at me. "Did it fix the problem?"
:allhail: I will have to try this.....but how do you get him to realize how you feel and to love you....when you take great links to let him know hes loved and appreciated.....so you just get up and leave everytime and the rest will follow.....i'm gonna be even more alone than i am now....but will try.....thank you for what you posted:smthumbup:


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## ladymay (May 11, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> But that's not quite the scene. He doesn't follow me around and harrass me with yelling.
> 
> He doesn't pick fights or start yelling out of the blue.
> 
> ...


mine is same way


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## ladymay (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> When you try to stifle my speech, I feel offended, and I then feel like I should keep discussing the subject. So I will.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What I'm suggesting is merging LOVE with STRENGTH and SELF-RESPECT.

You treat people how to treat YOU. By accepting poor treatment. 

You can't change anyone else. All you can do is stay true to yourself and EXPLAIN that to your spouse - what you're doing and why. And keep on enforcing your boundaries.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Why would you suspect that he would want to change? Do you want him to change for you?


I don't want to "change" the person he is at the core. 

I want him to change his damaging behaviors and reactions.

I'm attempting to change mine. And when it's pointed out to me that I may be causing damage when I don't realize it, I make an effort to mitigate it.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> And keep on enforcing your boundaries.


This is a real question:

How would you recommend I enforce my boundaries at this point?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He WILL change, when you no longer accept his behaviors; he has to, because you won't be standing there, taking it.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> He WILL change, when you no longer accept his behaviors; he has to, because you won't be standing there, taking it.


I don't know if you read my response earlier, that tells you my catch-22:

1. He tries to shut me up.

2. Explaining "I feel shut up when you do that, so I will keep talking" WILL MAKE THINGS WORSE. THAT IS WHEN HE WILL YELL.

3 Walking away and leaving the room when he tries to shut me up DOES NOT ENFORCE MY BOUNDARIES; IT TELLS HIM HE CAN SHUT ME UP.

*By the way...this has gotten WORSE since I started individual therapy, stopped coddling/placating him between conflicts, and stopped being emotionally reactive myself.*


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> This is a real question:
> 
> How would you recommend I enforce my boundaries at this point?


A series of steps.

First, read HNHN again and get a good handle on what your responsibilities are as his wife. Learn about the Love Bucket (as my husband calls it) - each time you Love Bust your husband, it pokes a hole in his 'bucket' of love he has for you. If you try to show him love, fill an Emotional Need, all that happens is that effort just flows right out that hole you poked. You can do 100 things for him, but if you keep LBing him, you'll never fill that bucket - all the good just keeps flowing out the holes. You'll get nowhere. You each have the same responsbilities toward each other - to not LB and to meet ENs.

Second, read either a couple (small) books by Patricia Evans or else the book Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men. Arm yourself with knowledge so that you can recognize true abuse or control if it is there. Here's the #1 secret about abuse victims: Most of them have been in the thick of it so long they're no longer capable of recognizing abuse, even when others point it out. 

Abuse victims are like that frog in the water. If you drop him into scalding water, he'll hop out and save himself. But if you put him in tap water and gradually turn the heat up, he'll keep accommodating himself to the growing heat and never leave. Then he'll die. An abuse victim never marries an abuser knowing he is one. She 'accepts' one little bad action. 'Oh, he's just having a bad day.' Then she accepts another. 'Oh, I shouldn't have said that or worn that or done that.' Each time, the 'punishment' gets a little more severe. It may start out a nitpick about your clothes or hair. If you accept that, he'll look for something else to rag on. Maybe you were dumb about spending too much money. Or maybe you have no common sense. Or maybe your mom's a busybody and should be avoided. It heats up more and more and more, the more you accept it. Until you're in the boiling water and you can't leave.

So I want you to arm yourself with knowledge so you can make the correct decision. If he _is_ abusive, you have to stop all this crap and leave him, because he'll NEVER remove his bad actions. If he isn't abusive, you can carry on to step #3.

Third, if you determine (as best you can, or with the help of a therapist) that he's not abusive, that he just has bad coping techniques, then YOU can start adjusting what YOU do, to enact a change in him.

My husband is like that; I used to think he was abusive, but when I took a hard look at myself, I discovered he was just reacting to MY bad behavior. So what to do? Again, _more knowledge_. Go to marriagebuilders.com and print out both versions of the Love Buster questionnaire. Go to him. Tell him that you want to clear the air so that your marriage is stress-free, more comfortable, and makes you both happy. Apologize for your bad actions. Tell him that this questionnaire will help you learn what YOU do that upsets him, so you can stop doing those things. (Note that, if you determined he is abusive, this would be handing him a TOOL to better abuse you with, so find that out first.) Tell him that you're going to fill it out, too, and you'd love it if he'd read yours after you finish, too, and you know that he just wants you to be happy, since you two love each other, so you're hoping that he'll take that knowledge and make adjustments in how you two deal with each other.

Four, once you get his answers, you spend the next 2 or 3 months CHANGING your behaviors. It takes that long to change habits. Focus just on that - your behavior. Do no harm. Clear the air. Remove the tension. Don't give him a reason to gripe at you.

Five, after 2 or 3 months, print out the Emotional Needs questionnaires. Rinse and repeat. Fill them out. Start making sure you are meeting his top 5 ENs. Ask him to meet YOURS. By this time, the tension should be gone and you two should be more willing to meet each other's ENs (again, assuming he's not abusive or controlling). Spend 2 or 3 months making sure his needs are being met. This should increase his willingness to make YOU happy.

Six, start enacting one of MB's most important rules: spending at least 10 to 15 hours a week together doing non-work things. Share coffee in the morning. Eat dinner at the table without the tv. Take the dog for a walk together. Go biking or hiking. Play board games once a week. Invite the neighbors over for a barbecue. Have a block party. _Make your life desirable; make him want to be part of it._

Finally, by this time you two should be speaking to each other in a NICE way. No antagonism. Working for the same team. NOW, if he reverts to a bad coping skill, you calmly, lovingly point it out and say "this isn't helping our relationship. It drains my love bank and upsets me, so I can't participate. If you ABC, I'm going to have to XYZ, to protect my love for you." 

And then do it. 

And continue to show him that there IS a better way. Be his example. Let him learn from you, siince you're the one here learning.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> *By the way...this has gotten WORSE since I started individual therapy, stopped coddling/placating him between conflicts, and stopped being emotionally reactive myself.*


Follow my steps below.

Assuming he's not abusive, what he is doing is REACTING to you pulling out your support of him. My IC told me: "Stop propping him and his bad behaviors up; stop supporting it. Once you do that, he can do one of two things - learn to stand on his own two feet (be a nicer person), or fall flat on his face. His choice. But it won't be your fault."

When he ignores you, go about your business. Pretend it doesn't bother you. When you don't react (and he's doing it to get the same reaction or dance from you that you've always given him), he'll have to try something else. It IS like the toddler - you have to be the adult here and show him how to act correctly. _Do no harm_. Show him the high road.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> Follow my steps below.
> 
> Assuming he's not abusive, what he is doing is REACTING to you pulling out your support of him. My IC told me: "Stop propping him and his bad behaviors up; stop supporting it. Once you do that, he can do one of two things - learn to stand on his own two feet (be a nicer person), or fall flat on his face. His choice. But it won't be your fault."
> 
> When he ignores you, go about your business. Pretend it doesn't bother you. When you don't react (and he's doing it to get the same reaction or dance from you that you've always given him), he'll have to try something else. It IS like the toddler - you have to be the adult here and show him how to act correctly. _Do no harm_. Show him the high road.


This is interesting...

I appreciate your response with the steps. 

I'll be honest--a lot of that kind of thinking and effort, I have done SO MUCH in the past. I am a little gun-shy to approach him with more programs, more effort, more requests to work. 7 months of MC, with a full "program" didn't help us. I put 150% into it.

I hate to say sometimes he DOES manipulate the stuff from MC to impede real problem-solving. I don't know if that means he's abusive, or just desperately argumentative when he's under stress.

On the other hand.......

I could guess what his "love busters" are: when I seem to be arguing with him, when I repeat myself to try and make a point, when I tell him how to respond to me.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Mom6547---Im trying to "set limits" on disrespect; disarm, defuse, deflect.


In my opinion, deflecting and disarming are DIFFERENT than setting limits. The former is a temporary avoidance technique. You are taking responsibility for avoiding. The latter attempts to place responsibility on the other. 



> And for the record, cussing and tossing pizza in a public place WAS an inappropriate overreaction, and just as seriously a "deal-breaker" as the rest of this.


I was referring to your interaction prior to the pitching of the pizza.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> I was referring to your interaction prior to the pitching of the pizza.


Oh, right. My grievous offense that started it all:

Laughing and stating fact: "I didn't order this."

That would drive anyone into a pizza-pitching fury.

I did NOT "interpret disrespect" in the way he ordered pizza. I honest-to-God thought it was FUNNY that he assumed I wanted the gd veggie pizza--because I normally do.

IYO, deflecting and disarming with humor doesn't set limits.

IMO, deflecting and disarming with humor re: small issues, DOES set a limit on going nuclear over small issues.

It says: "I'm not fazed by this itty bitty issue that has your panties in a bunch." It shows the reality that only ONE of us is having a problem, and thus only ONE of us can really solve that problem.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Oh, right. My grievous offense that started it all:


Do you do that with him? Am I blaming you for anything? If being ineffective is a crime, then we are all guilty. 



> Laughing and stating fact: "I didn't order this."


My recollection was that after this, you launched into a lecture on the disrespect of getting the wrong pizza. If my memory is mistaken, I apologize. 



> IYO, deflecting and disarming with humor doesn't set limits.
> 
> IMO, deflecting and disarming with humor re: small issues, DOES set a limit on going nuclear over small issues.


I was not talking about small issues. I am talking about the anger. I believe you should ignore the small issues.

How has that been affecting your long term goals. As Doc Phil would say, how has that been working for you?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> My recollection was that after this, you launched into a lecture on the disrespect of getting the wrong pizza. If my memory is mistaken, I apologize.


Yes, you're mistaken. I said "that was a strong reaction" and then said nothing else until the following day. No lecture.

Longer term goals? If the dude flips his **** over a tv show, then one of my longer term goals is to COOL DOWN THE SCENE for now, until he is READY to engage like an adult.

Deflecting with humor shows that he's not going to get a fight out of me over small things. It shows him he's being silly. 

And hopefully, over time, he sees that silly loss of temper won't get him anywhere.

For the time being--LESS (talk from me) IS MORE.

Help me out with this--how does my "I feel...when you...so I'm going to..." put responsibility on HIM?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'll be honest--a lot of that kind of thinking and effort, I have done SO MUCH in the past. I am a little gun-shy to approach him with more programs, more effort, more requests to work. 7 months of MC, with a full "program" didn't help us. I put 150% into it.


This isn't something you TELL him you're doing - you just DO it. Trust me, it works. 

Again, assuming he's not abusive.

I hope you understand what that word means. It's someone who willfully (but possibly without him even knowing he does it) adjusts things in his life to benefit himself, at the expense of someone else. In other words, he doesn't mind hurting you if it gets him what he wants.

That's why you need to educate yourself on it. Like I said, I thought my DH was, but it turns out, he was just miserable like I was, and fighting back.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Yes, you're mistaken. I said "that was a strong reaction" and then said nothing else until the following day. No lecture.


My mistake.


> Longer term goals? If the dude flips his **** over a tv show, then one of my longer term goals is to COOL DOWN THE SCENE for now, until he is READY to engage like an adult.


That is not setting limits. That is you taking responsibility for his actions.


> Deflecting with humor shows that he's not going to get a fight out of me over small things. It shows him he's being silly.
> 
> 
> And hopefully, over time, he sees that silly loss of temper won't get him anywhere.


How has that been working for you? Does he view himself as silly? Doesn't sound like it. Seems to me it is just you taking responsibility for working around his anger.



> For the time being--LESS (talk from me) IS MORE.


There you are right. You don't have the right to speak to me that way. And leave.



> Help me out with this--how does my "I feel...when you...so I'm going to..." put responsibility on HIM?


If he is yelling? It doesn't. Set the stage with the aforementioned wording. I feel anger, resentment and pain when you yell at me. So when you do, I am going to say You don't have the right to speak to me that way and leave.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> How has that been working for you? Does he view himself as silly?


I don't know if he views himself as silly in these moments. He feels helpless and overwhelmed.

I will say this---either saying very little or nothing and then walking away when he crosses a line, has been more effective than using lots of words. 

Lately I'm slipping into "too many words" zone. 

But I *STILL* haven't emotionally reacted in months. So I don't even call this "fighting." 

I haven't fought with him. I've just stood my ground.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> he doesn't mind hurting you if it gets him what he wants.


When we're in conflict...

He doesn't mind if I feel hurt, because all he feels and cares about is his OWN hurt (which I have caused).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I could guess what his "love busters" are


There you go...making assumptions...

Ok? Don't do that. The worst thing you can do is base your choices off of assumptions. 

If you have to, kiss up to him (that's why I said to apologize), and THEN ask him to fill it out.

But ONLY after you've done some reading on abuse.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> There you go...making assumptions...


Aren't "love busters" those things that "bust your love" for someone? The things you can't stand that they do?

Um...he has definitely told me what I do that busts his love for me. He's definitely told me what I do that he can't stand.

Ain't no assumptions. It's pretty clear.

Sure, there may be other things he hasn't told me. But I'm well aware of the ones he HAS told me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Yes, you're mistaken. I said "*that was a strong reaction*" and then said nothing else until the following day. No lecture.


 Again, you are educating him. And you know what educating means, right? It means YOU know more, and HE knows less. Puts you up above him. That's likely how he's seeing your interactions. 

While you're picking up books on abuse, look for one on methods of communication. That's probably your best bet for fixing things at this point. He ASSUMES that you will always be this way by now. He's looking for it, reading into everything you say, because you have a habit of educating him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Help me out with this--how does my "I feel...when you...so I'm going to..." put responsibility on HIM?


That's easy. 

It TELLS him what your boundaries are, and what his consequences will be if he CHOOSES to continue to do what bothers you. 

Now it's on him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I don't know if he views himself as silly in these moments. He feels helpless and overwhelmed.


Exactly. 

By what?

By YOU. 

The one thing you DO have control over. 

If you want him to stop feeling helpless and overwhelmed, stop doing the things that put him there in the first place.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Aren't "love busters" those things that "bust your love" for someone? The things you can't stand that they do?
> 
> Um...he has definitely told me what I do that busts his love for me. He's definitely told me what I do that he can't stand.
> 
> ...


 I will respectfully suggest that you use the instrument of the expert on the subject, Dr Harley, and use his questionnaire to get the truth instead of making assumptions or using 'part' of the information or using it in an incorrect way.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Sure, there may be other things he hasn't told me. But I'm well aware of the ones he HAS told me.


 And...have you stopped doing those things?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> Again, you are educating him. And you know what educating means, right? It means YOU know more, and HE knows less. Puts you up above him. That's likely how he's seeing your interactions.
> 
> While you're picking up books on abuse, look for one on methods of communication. That's probably your best bet for fixing things at this point. He ASSUMES that you will always be this way by now. He's looking for it, reading into everything you say, because you have a habit of educating him.


This could be true.

Here's my sadness, though:

I tell him "I'm feeling xyz right now," that his response is simply: 

"Yeah? So? That's your problem. Examine in yourself why you feel that way. You're choosing to feel that."

Lack of empathy. Abusive? Maybe.

BTW, I've read Evans' book, read a few others too. I don't know if he is abusive.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> And...have you stopped doing those things?


How can I know that, if I don't know what they are???

Example: I spent a week out of town. Asked him if he minded my absence. No, no problem. I find out weeks later that he expressed his resentment to someone else.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> If you want him to stop feeling helpless and overwhelmed, stop doing the things that put him there in the first place.


Seriously? 

So I'm responsible for his feelings. My actions and words "put him there." 

Partially.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I tell him "I'm feeling xyz right now," that his response is simply:
> 
> "Yeah? So? That's your problem. Examine in yourself why you feel that way. You're choosing to feel that."


Did you finish it by saying "if it continues, I will do PQR?" And the PQR will be something that affects him?

Follow the steps, anyway. No point just bringing up a random zinger here or there with no plan. That just makes YOU look abusive.

fwiw, have you considered the possibility that he simply doesn't love you? That you're a convenience?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> How can I know that, if I don't know what they are???
> 
> Example: I spent a week out of town. Asked him if he minded my absence. No, no problem. I find out weeks later that he expressed his resentment to someone else.


So there's your answer - you DO know what they are. Your going away for a week is a Love Buster to him. So don't go out of town again.

btw, you just said in the previous post that he has made it very clear what a LOT of LBs are. THAT was what I was referring to.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Seriously?
> 
> So I'm responsible for his feelings. My actions and words "put him there."
> 
> Partially.


You ARE responsible if there are things you know that, when you do them, he is not happy, and you continue to do them. 

Life is about making adjustments, credam. As you gain knowledge, you change direction.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> btw, you just said in the previous post that he has made it very clear what a LOT of LBs are. THAT was what I was referring to.


I'm working on it.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> fwiw, have you considered the possibility that he simply doesn't love you? That you're a convenience?


yup.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

btw, I hope you realize I'm not trying to tell you WHAT your husband thinks. We can't possibly know; even YOU can't.

I'm just trying to throw out all possible scenarios so you can make the most informed decision on how to proceed. May be abusive, may just be frustrated, may just be using you...if you follow the plan I laid out, you'll at least know that you've done everything possible to save the marriage, even if it ends up being unsaveable (sp?).


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> btw, I hope you realize I'm not trying to tell you WHAT your husband thinks. We can't possibly know; even YOU can't.
> 
> I'm just trying to throw out all possible scenarios so you can make the most informed decision on how to proceed. May be abusive, may just be frustrated, may just be using you...if you follow the plan I laid out, you'll at least know that you've done everything possible to save the marriage, even if it ends up being unsaveable (sp?).


I know. The time is approaching when I'll need to take this into my own hands and lay some things out for him, ask him some questions.

It will require an honest "come to Jesus" conversation.

A lot is not being said lately. We are very disconnected. I used to do all the "fixing" to reconnect us.
I've backed off of that--he TOLD me to. "no more talking!!!"
He doesn't prefer this distance either, but he denies some realities:

1. communication can help
2. he has to own his nasty feelings and reactions
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AbsolutelyFree (Jan 28, 2011)

I really have no advice to offer -- But, clearly this has been a long struggle with a lot of effort. I don't think it's possible for someone to try so hard for so long without any results. Something good has to come from it eventually!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

AbsolutelyFree said:


> I really have no advice to offer -- But, clearly this has been a long struggle with a lot of effort. I don't think it's possible for someone to try so hard for so long without any results. Something good has to come from it eventually!


Thanks for the encouragement.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's another thought. If he's an ok guy who just has a lot of issues, it's possible that making him aware you're fed up and may be looking to separate will pull him out of complacency. It's the ONLY thing that worked on my husband - knowing I'd leave him if he didn't start pulling his weight.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> Here's another thought. If he's an ok guy who just has a lot of issues, it's possible that making him aware you're fed up and may be looking to separate will pull him out of complacency. It's the ONLY thing that worked on my husband - knowing I'd leave him if he didn't start pulling his weight.


That has crossed my mind, definitely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera;318162 It's the ONLY thing that worked on my husband - knowing I'd leave him if he didn't start pulling his weight.[/QUOTE said:


> How did you let him know?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I had a big blowup one night after he was being a big jerk (in my mind), and I had just had enough. I told him so. After 25 years of shutting up, I just decided to stop making nice. And I said "I can't do this any more. I do ALL the housework; I do all the money; I do all the planning; and you mow the grass and sit on the couch. If you don't start making a change, I won't stay here."


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

I just wanted to leave a note to say that my parents were like you two. My father was like your husband. Doing all the emotional abuse, power struggles, everything. I don't know if you two have children or not but let me assure you, they WILL be affected.

My mother just took it and by the time i was born she was "trained" to be a submissive wife that never questioned anything he had to say (even if it was rediculous), always saying "yes dear", never questioning him, never wanting to rock the boat. Lest his anger come out (he has an acid tongue, I swear!). Then when I was born and then eventually my younger brother, he did the same to us. Mum would not defend us.. she was soooo "under his thumb" and scared of getting him angry that she just agreed with him every single time to keep the peace. Eventually my brother and I were trained to be under the thumb too, so to speak, from a young age. He would regularly tell us what a disappointment we were, how we would amount to nothing, etc etc every time he had one of his anger fits, which were very regularly. I was the only one who had the guts to stand up for myself (and i stood up for my mother and bro too). In hindsight I can see that this threatened his "king of the castle" status, and because I wasn't scared of him getting angry (I think I inherited his acid tongue because I would give it back just as good as he gave me) and so I was singled out a lot of the time when he was angry. Whenever he would get angry and say all that junk, I would stop the conversation and say "we will talk about it later when you are calmer" (and then leave the room), and that used to make him ENRAGED! I think it was because I was displaying a bit of that power that he envisioned all belonged to him. He was not rational after that, thats for sure lol. He never hit us or anything like that, it was all verbal and emotional abuse.

Needless to say, I am 30 now and I have been mentally ill all my life. Being told you are crap for the whole of your childhood really does take it's toll. So now I have to deal with years of psychotherapy just to get out of this severe depression, it is rediculous! I have extreme anger issues (I need medication for this also), and if someone does what my father did I absolutely go MAD with anger. Just last week I met with my parents for mothers day to have a coffee, and mum told me she is not allowed to drive, and she is not allowed to work (my dad made these rules apparently) and all she does all day is talk to him and make him cups of coffee (he is retired). She has no friends anymore for some reason. And I notice that every time I ring her up, we talk for a while until dad decides its time to end the phone call. Its freaking rediculous. I can not meet up with them very often or I will end up hitting him. And every time I try to get my mum out of the house to meet some friends/take up a hobby/whatever.... she just goes back to him and resumes being the obedient little wife, she never takes me up on my offers. I liken it to the physically abused women who keep going back to their husbands time after time. They think they cannot survive without the husband. My dad never hits anyone but the principle is still the same.

But yeah even though it is a bit different to your situation, I would like to say that this may be YOU in 20 years if you do not put your foot down. I'm pretty sure my parents started off like you and your husband in the beginning... it all started from there. Then it snowballs.

Like other people said, you cannot change anyone else but yourself, but you CAN enforce your boundaries. When he is a calm mood, maybe you could tell him something along the lines of "It is not acceptable to me to be in a marriage where the husband disrespects me, whether its verbally, emotionally, or in any manner". Then when he has his temper tantrum, stop what you are doing at the time, and then just up and leave the room. He is crossing your boundary and that is unacceptable. You said he doesnt follow you around arguing, so that is good - when he calms down you can talk about it calmly. If he blames it on you then you stop the conversation, leave the room. 

I don't know if that is the best way to deal with it but the general idea is that when he crosses your boundary (not respecting you) there needs to be a consequence, and you must be willing to follow through on the consequence every single time. Whether its to stop and leave the room, or whatever you may feel is better, you have to ALWAYS enforce that.


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