# Never in love with you????



## Mr. T

Hi all,

My wife and I have been dating for 7+ years and married for 9 months. She came to me a few months ago saying that she Loved me...but where we ever in love...or just friends that decided to take the next step.

I know something was wrong but thought it was due to the surgery she was going to have. Surgeries of this level can be life changing. I was astounded at this statement, especially since we had had so many great times together. 

I feel like she has completly changed and made up her mind. Now all she does is look at things from the past and spin them in a negative way, even though there was never an indication of those feelings at the time. One example was stating that our engagement was not romantic enough & why did it take so long? I feel like if you want you can rewrite history from any perspective and make it sound good or bad. 

It is very frustrating as the person that I fell in love with seems to have been replaced by a stranger. I believe she doesn't want to work on it and just throw in the towl.

Any insight is appreciated.

Thanks


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## iheartlife

I would strongly suspect that there is someone else that has entered the picture, you just don't know who that person is yet. 

Cheaters:

--say I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You

--re-write the relationship history (I mean, really, "our engagement was not romantic enough"??? that's almost as bad as the other howler I heard recently, "I don't love you because you don't dress fashionably")


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## Mr. T

The thing is that I never heard any of this stuff before. She swears its not anyone else. But to say things like that really makes me scratch my head. "Were we ever in love" was another one. It just seems bizarre to convey all this info to me now after all these years to make it seem like nothing mattered.


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## Uptown

Mr. T, given that you've ruled out an affair, I believe your initial intuition -- that it is associated with her fibroid tumor surgery -- likely is correct. Or, more specifically, I suspect a hormone change (not the surgery itself) may be the culprit. I note that uterine fibroid tumors (or leiomyomas) are estrogen dependent – they THRIVE on estrogen. See 10 Things to Know About Uterine Fibroid Tumors. 

Hence, one possibility is that her estrogen level could have been too high. Another possibility is that her gynecologist prescribed an estrogen blocker to shrink the fibroid tumors prior to surgery (or afterwards, to reduce the chance of a regrowth).

I mention all this about estrogen because this hormone typically regulates mood, with the result that low levels of it in some individuals can cause low mood, anxiety and irritability. See Estrogen & Moodiness | LIVESTRONG.COM. 

Given that you two had 7 good years together, and given that these recent issues coincide with the fibroid tumor discovery and its treatment, I strongly suggest that the two of you speak with her gynecologist about the role that hormones may be playing. If that professional is not helpful, I would recommend seeing a psychiatrist (i.e., a psychologist who also has a medical degree and thus is well trained in the effects of hormones). Take care, Mr. T.


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## unbelievable

I'm thinking you're dealing with someone who has headspace issues. Logic doesn't square with a married woman saying she wants out because the engagement wasn't romantic enough and it doesn't square with staying with someone 7 years and then telling them you never loved them. Depression, maybe? If you suddenly felt your world was dark and hopeless, you'd look around for an explanation and your partner would do quite nicely.


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## iheartlife

Mr. T said:


> She swears its not anyone else.


Unfortunately, one does not confirm whether or not a cheater is cheating by asking them. In order to cheat, a betrayer must start out by lying to themselves, and as they enter into the affair more deeply, they must learn how to get better and better at lying to you.

Checking facebook, Internet search history, and cellphone call and texting records are much more reliable than a possible cheat.

I'm not saying she's cheating. But we've had just 2 people in the last few days who posted a while back that they received the ILYBINILWY speech, and both came back to say, well, you all were right, they were cheating. I kid you not that the rate of hearing those words and discovering some type of betrayal are extremely high.

I would not rule out an affair just because she said so.

I pray I am wrong. Unfortunately, the track record for this precise situation is not a good one. Please take heed.


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## muttgirl

Some folks get married, expecting some parts of the relationship to magically improve and when it doesn't happen there was not enough love and doubts about marriage pop up. Logical, no but fantasies about married life fool a lot of people. If she is having hormone stuff and worried about future children and/or sex life, instead of discussing it with you, maybe she is assuming all the future changes are undesirable and is rejecting you before you have the chance to reject her. It doesnt sound like you have talked to her enough to try to find out the truth, but all those other ideas expressed are possible too. Try talking to find out her worries and insecurities before you let her weaken your relationship because she is scared or devious.


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## Mr. T

Is it possible that the surgery & increased hormones made her go back and realize that our relationship wasn't what she thought? I still feel that all those factors are skewing her view on us. Believe me I would not type it if I didn't believe it.

She seems to have made her mind up and every time we talk about this she says the same thing(s).

On another note, Thanks to all for the advice.


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## Toffer

All great responses but I would also remind you to rule out an affair bt monitoring her comms. Key logger on PC, VARs in car and check cell phone billing records for abnormally high volume of textx and calls to one number


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## iheartlife

Toffer said:


> All great responses but I would also remind you to rule out an affair bt monitoring her comms. Key logger on PC, VARs in car and check cell phone billing records for abnormally high volume of textx and calls to one number


We tried, Toffer.

Keep us updated, Mr. T. Just so you know, no one around here will ever say "I told you so." We want only the very best for you. But for the type of inexplicable radical change you're describing, it does not sound to me like a hormonal imbalance. If you want to wait until after surgery, that's understandable. I'd ask her doctor if this issue could present itself as a radical change in emotions. The answer is almost surely no--but why not ask?


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## Mr. T

Just to clarify....The surgery was near the end of March. There had been tension in the months leading up to it - I thought it just had to do with the uncertainty leading up to a major surgery.

I will see if I can find anything out of the ordinary in regards to phones #'s...like this whole chain of events!


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## Mr. T

Are there any good phone number look up resources out there? I found a number I dont recognize on the cell bill and want to see who owns it. I believe it is a cell phone number.


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## Mr. T

Anyone have any input?

Are there any good phone number look up resources out there? I found a number I dont recognize on the cell bill and want to see who owns it. I believe it is a cell phone number.


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## keko

Caller ID Lookup

Free Cell Number Search | Spy Dialer for the voicemail

Or just call the number from another phone.


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## iheartlife

spokeo.com, which is free.


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## Mr. T

Thanks for the info.

Upon further discussion with her she just keeps saying that she isn't in love with me and is sorry she hurt me. I don't really buy the 'I never was in love' thing, I feel like it is a cop out.

She said that if we weren't married she would have left me. Just to think 7 months ago it was completely different (and for the 6 or so years up to that point). Maybe I never will understand why this happened, that is the frustrating for someone like me.

We made love last week for the first time in a long time. She claims that afterwards she was crying because of the emotional hurt. I never saw it but that can't be good.

We briefly discussed seperating, which I believe doesn't matter since she is checked out. Maybe it is just the way it needs to be....


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## iheartlife

If you are looking for another way to approach this, and since it sounds like you have nothing to lose, there are a couple of books frequently recommended for men whose wives are actively cheating on them. She may not be, but as discussed she's exhibiting various signs. These books may help whether she is cheating, or just thinking about it, or just emotionally distant and not connecting to the marriage. (I am also having my husband read these, even though I was the loyal spouse.)

They are, 

No More Mr. Nice Guy

Married Man Sex Life

Basically these books are road map for how to be a loving husband who gets respect. The idea is that the modern balanced husband isn't rude or domineering, abusive, or insensitive; but he also isn't a doormat and he stands up for himself. He is confident and commands respect with subtlety and humor, not anger and a 2x4.

Once you've read those books, there are others--His Needs / Her Needs, Love Busters, and The 5 Love Languages. I'd read them in pretty quick succession; it sounds like she is so incredibly checked out.


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## iheartlife

Here's a random guy who just finished MMSL. There are plenty of other examples on the forum. His wife wanted to get her own apartment and separate.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...on/46623-thank-you-married-mans-sex-life.html

those books aren't magical but again, you are searching for help and answers and they just might help you out.


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## Mr. T

Thanks for advice on the books iheartlife. You are correct (and she even admits it) that she is checked out. 

Is there any way to check back in is the million $$$ question.  I will definately look into the books.


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## iheartlife

Wondering if you have any updates for us.


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> Wondering if you have any updates for us.


I've read about 2/3 of MMSL. The book is pretty good. I would say I fall into the nice guy category.
I am going to see where it goes from here. My wife has already said the ILYBINILWY so it might be too late.
As the book says she did marry me for a reason so I've got that going for me. I was out of town this weekend so more to come.


Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. T

Well my wife wants to move out for a month or so. She says she needs her space and living in the same house just isn't working - in fact making things worse.

I do not like the idea of her moving out. I think it only makes it worse. She did agree to go to couples therapy so maybe there still is hope.


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## iheartlife

You are still sure she isn't seeing someone / holding out hope of being with someone?

What promises are you making to each other about being separated?

Is she allowed to date other people because she's moved out, or is she saying she'll only be working on herself?


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> You are still sure she isn't seeing someone / holding out hope of being with someone?
> 
> What promises are you making to each other about being separated?
> 
> Is she allowed to date other people because she's moved out, or is she saying she'll only be working on herself?



-I don't think there is someone else although all this would make more sense. Her mom (who she close with) even called and demanded she tell the truth and the answer was 'no'.
- We haven't worked out any details or rules about the seperation yet.
- She says she doesn't want to date other people. I think she is trying to figure things out.

She just says she doesn't fell like a married person should feel, like we are more friends.
I realized that over the past 7 months or so (the book also confirmed) we were in a 'low sex' marriage.
I think this is the main culprit although she denies it. We seemed to get complacent w/ each other and stopped doing it enough - in my opinion.
The thing is I am very attracted to her (and her me at least in the past) and we just didn't communicate.

She did agree to go to couples therapy so maybe we can get back to basics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

"to figure things out" is a bs to cover the true intent. We hear the same line over and over again when there is another person in the picture.

Other then her call/text logs anything out of the ordinary to make you a little suspicious? Working late, weekends? Talking about things she never did before? Going shopping for loooong time? Unaccounted time?

Also MC is no magic pill to fix anything/everything.


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## iheartlife

Mr. T said:


> -I don't think there is someone else although all this would make more sense. Her mom (who she close with) even called and demanded she tell the truth and the answer was 'no'.
> - We haven't worked out any details or rules about the seperation yet.
> - She says she doesn't want to date other people. I think she is trying to figure things out.
> 
> She just says she doesn't fell like a married person should feel, like we are more friends.
> I realized that over the past 7 months or so (the book also confirmed) we were in a 'low sex' marriage.
> I think this is the main culprit although she denies it. We seemed to get complacent w/ each other and stopped doing it enough - in my opinion.
> The thing is I am very attracted to her (and her me at least in the past) and we just didn't communicate.
> 
> She did agree to go to couples therapy so maybe we can get back to basics.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are absolutely right that sex is an important way to create a powerful marital bond. 

Exactly how is that going to work when you aren't even in the same building?

Of course, you cannot make her stay. But if I were you, I would set up some very hard and fast rules about what is permissible during separation. I would NOT permit dating in any shape or form just because you're physically separate. Working on "herself" means not entering into new relationships with members of the opposite sex. The same would go for you, of course.


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> You are absolutely right that sex is an important way to create a powerful marital bond.
> 
> Exactly how is that going to work when you aren't even in the same building?
> 
> Of course, you cannot make her stay. But if I were you, I would set up some very hard and fast rules about what is permissible during separation. I would NOT permit dating in any shape or form just because you're physically separate. Working on "herself" means not entering into new relationships with members of the opposite sex. The same would go for you, of course.



- Of course I question if she is cheating, who wouldn't. I just don't have the physical evidence. She is like a different person but I think that is her putting distance between us.

- I agree on setting up rules before the seperation but who will enforce them? Sooner or later we will both need laid, then what? This is tough stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife

Mr. T said:


> - Of course I question if she is cheating, who wouldn't. I just don't have the physical evidence. She is like a different person but I think that is her putting distance between us.
> 
> - I agree on setting up rules before the seperation but who will enforce them? Sooner or later we will both need laid, then what? This is tough stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is she on facebook a lot? Does she use the computer a lot? From what I recall, you check her phone bill and you don't see her texting or calling anyone disproportionately, right?

We have Verizon. Verizon lets you go in and analyze usage. I was able to find alternate numbers for my husband's affair partner because they were on his most called #'s list. These alternate numbers were called less than my numbers, but not as much as his affair partner's primary cell phone.

Just wondering if you see any odd patterns in the calling, even if you know all the numbers she's calling.

What some people have done is install a keylogger on their home computer. It records keystrokes. You would be able to see if she has a secret email account, etc.

Does she work outside the home? Is there anyone she's mentioned a lot at first and then stopped talking about? Do you have mutual male friends that she spends time with? Has she acted oddly around you and any men in your lives when you are both present?


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> Is she on facebook a lot? Does she use the computer a lot? From what I recall, you check her phone bill and you don't see her texting or calling anyone disproportionately, right?
> 
> We have Verizon. Verizon lets you go in and analyze usage. I was able to find alternate numbers for my husband's affair partner because they were on his most called #'s list. These alternate numbers were called less than my numbers, but not as much as his affair partner's primary cell phone.
> 
> Just wondering if you see any odd patterns in the calling, even if you know all the numbers she's calling.
> 
> What some people have done is install a keylogger on their home computer. It records keystrokes. You would be able to see if she has a secret email account, etc.
> 
> 
> Does she work outside the home? Is there anyone she's mentioned a lot at first and then stopped talking about? Do you have mutual male friends that she spends time with? Has she acted oddly around you and any men in your lives when you are both present?




She actually deleted her Facebook a month or so ago. There was one # that was called a lot in December/jan but now I only occasionally see it. She works outside the home. It seems like in the past few months she feels the need to go out more. She said something like she doesn't want to sit around all the time. As far as mentioning other people she does not.
I know those are some signs but I still don't think anything is going on. Maybe there was an EA back in Dec/Jan that stopped, this is when she started acting a little different. Than again it could be the realization that major surgery was comming.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

Have one of your relatives or a close friend follow her next time she's out.


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## Mr. T

keko said:


> Have one of your relatives or a close friend follow her next time she's out.


Not possible we don't have any relatives for about 600 miles away. 

She still keeps saying 'I never meant to hurt you'. Maybe she just changed her mind as stupid as it may sound.
We'll see how she acts this weekend as my parents are in town.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

How about a friend or a coworker? Even a stranger off the road would do it for a few bucks.


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## Mr. T

Well this weekend my parents were in town and she acted very normal to them. We talked about just having fun this weekend but it was kind of weird.
The more I read into this the more it sounds like a textbook MLC.
We are going to counseling (finally) next week so we'll see how that goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. T

Well an update. My parents were in town and she played nice all weekend, said she loves spending time with them.

Last night we went together to the MC. When the MC asked her if she was there to 'work on the marriage' or 'work on the divorce' she chose the work on the divorce. My jaw kinda dropped. My MC said to me (while we were 1 on 1) that he hasn't seen something like this and that I need to find what changed her mind - although I may never know.

On the way home she said she was sorry and that she doesn't want to divorce right away, she wants to separate and see how life w/o me really is.

She then explained things from the past that bothered her (unknown to me I might add) that contributed to her emotionally checking out. Things like 'I thought she was fat' b/c I didnt take her shirt off all the time we we had sex - Not true she weighs like 120 lbs...wtf???

Another thing was that I never asked her to wear lingerie she received from the bachelorette party. I said 'you could have surprised me' .

Anyway I just wanted to provide an update to my struggle. Have a great day !


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## This is me

From what you wrote, sounds like she is confused. 

I heard many things in MC that shocked me, but were all part of the fog and confusion of the Mid Life Crisis. Things are nearly back to normal now. After four months seperation she discovered the grass was not greener elsewhere, just in the dream. 

There is usually someone else supporting the unhappiness they have and rather than challenging them, giving them the idea they can be happier leaving the marriage.

Time will reveal the truth. Patience is key.


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## Jellybeans

It does sound like she is having an affair.

If she's not, either way, she wants a divorce, so for the love of everything good and k ind, do not cling onto her. Do not try to convince her to stay.

LET HER GO.

Just tell her: "I am committed to this mariage. I love you. But if you want a divorce, then we should take the appropriate measures to make that happen. Either you want to be married or you do not"

The request for a separation is a smokescreen. Notice how she says she SITLL wants a divorce. So divorce is the end game. Separation is just to bide her time.

I wouldn't give her the satisfaction.


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## Mr. T

-MLC .....heck we are only 30. We had a big year last year...new city, new job, bought a house, & a wedding. She had surgery this year. It seems kinda youg for a MLC.
-this was the first time she said the D word. On the ride home she seemed more confused and wanting to separate to work on it. I am a realist but think she is still confused. I told her during the session that if it's a D she wants then lets go to the judge next week and move on with our lives. She seemed to back down a bit after that.

This whole thing is nuts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon

Mr.T everything you wrote about your W so far is exactly the same script my now ex W followed. It is so uncanny to see, there have been other guys on here whose W's followed it to, and we clump together like magnets because it is so polarizing - we see it so plainly - others may suggest MLC, toxic friends or whatnot, those all may play into it but trust me from my experience, with everything else she has said, the ILYBINILWY was the certificate of authenticity that she was IN AN AFFAIR.

When I found this out, I waffled and became fearful, wanted to compete against the other guy, was real weak and did not let myself get angry, I continued trying to show a cool calm exterior even though I was a mess inside.

Dig, you have looked on her phone, look in her car too for evidence there is strange activity - secret cell phone, spare clothes or toiletries, dirty clothes etc. buy a voice activated recorder (actually 2 of them) and put one in the car, under the seat - it will pick up any cnoversations she makes in there.

Look through her closet and underwear drawer and see if she has worn anything sexy that you haven't seen her in, any of that sexy lingerie have perfume on it? I notived my ex actually had actually discarded the packagin for a douche in the bathroom trashcan, she never used those before. Does she have any other new lingerie you have not seen before?

dig through her computer, looking at her email, look for additional accounts and make sure to check the sent and trash folders because they sometimes forget to clean those out. If she syncs her phone to the computer check the backup logs - depending what type of phone she has there is software available to help recover deleted log files and stuff.

Do not trust what she is saying, and if you start discovering evidence don't confront her right away - know that if you do confront and she starts confessing she will be skewing and minimizing every little detail, and you will only be getting the tip of the iceberg.

Considering she was crying when you last made love, she probably is deeply infatuated with the OM and was shedding tears for feeling like she was betraying him. Oh and see your doctor to get tested for STD's, just to be safe. Ironically after I found about my ex W's affair I was digging through her dresser and found a appointment slip for her to get checked so it confirmed for me she was likely having unprotected. It was also weird the last time I made love to her she was asking me to use condoms because it felt kinky to her (right, it was to assuage her guilt).

Good luck, in most cases I think infidelity is almost easier to deal with then MLC or walkaway spouse because atleast you can have a plan and a chance to kill the affair and knock your W out of her fantasyland, just make sure that you are tough on this, do not waffle and do not play nice, be mean and use the pain and hurt to make the tough decision to kick her out of your life unless she shows some serious remorse.


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## AlmostYoung

Mr. T said:


> Last night we went together to the MC. When *the MC asked her if she was there to 'work on the marriage' or 'work on the divorce' she chose the work on the divorce.*


What a horrible question for a counselor who is suppossed to be defending and rebuilding your marriage to ask. Unfortunately, it seems to be all too common. What ever you do, don't go back to this person. Do you really need a counselor to help you get divorced?


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## keko

Ditch the seperation go straight to divorce.

Will you take her back after she's been used by others?


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## iheartlife

AlmostYoung said:


> What a horrible question for a counselor who is suppossed to be defending and rebuilding your marriage to ask. Unfortunately, it seems to be all too common. What ever you do, don't go back to this person. Do you really need a counselor to help you get divorced?


This is my reaction as well. Frankly it's outrageous! What do YOU think the answer to this question would be if it was asked of every hurting couple that stepped through a therpist's door???

This is the sign of a counselor who is NOT pro-marriage. A counselor like our excellent one works from the premise that you would not be in counseling if you didn't believe in marriage and were going to at least make a stab at recommitment!

You need to go back to the drawing board and get a new counselor YESTERDAY.

I agree with Lon, her behavior (as I've said about 10x in this thread) signals that she has someone else in mind. You are not a mind reader, your posts speak for themselves that this has come completely out of nowhere. You cannot account for any type of explanation for it. That means it's been hidden from you, and why would she hide her legitimate needs from you, unless they were being met some other way that you don't know about?


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## Lon

I agree with others that you need a new counsellor, though not because he asked her what she is wanting counsel on, just that he said he hadn't seen this before.

My counsellor was going to be a MC but it never happened though I continued to see her for myself, and she never asked if my ex was seeking counsel for divorce she did admit that more often than not when it gets to one spouse checking out often the MC really becomes divorce counsel. I don't see that she is pro-divorce nor anti-marriage, I appreciated her honest take on it, and so I would say when a counsellor asks that question they are not guiding it towards divorce at all, just that they are having both parties put their mindset on the table.

It is not a MC's job to interfere or manipulate the situation to make a marriage work when one doesn't want to remain in the marriage, it is their job to foster communication and to make unbiased observations, identify and help you overcome obstacles and offer their professional recommendation when they recognize a breakdown in the communication. Not to tell you what you are supposed to want.


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## Ano

I find myself asking the same questions. 5 years and a child later... and let me state this first.. THERE IS NO OTHER MAN. Cheating isn't always the case for our spouses being distant/acting odd. .. I do feel like I "missed out" on that romantic engagment...and spectacular wedding.. and I'm definitely bored with life...with marriage especially. I don't laugh like I used to...I'm not happy with our sex life..and its so easy to point at my husband and ask myself why I married such a boring man. Ill mope around a day here and a day there..then I snap back to reality..and in reality... if I want my marriage to be more exciting...I need to stop waiting and take initiative (easier said then done). 

I don't know your situation..but there has been infidelity in mine on his part...which may or may not be a contributing factor to me feeling like something is missing in this relationship.

The only advice I can give you is to wait it out...and if anything..try being more affectionate and lovey dovey. Sometimes women need to feel the love..to know that they are loved.


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## iheartlife

Lon said:


> It is not a MC's job to interfere or manipulate the situation to make a marriage work when one doesn't want to remain in the marriage, it is their job to foster communication and to make unbiased observations, identify and help you overcome obstacles and offer their professional recommendation when they recognize a breakdown in the communication. Not to tell you what you are supposed to want.


The counselor doesn't need to tell you you're supposed to want to stay married--but in my view they should operate from that premise or why bother with counseling? 

Although maybe all he was doing was taking the temperature of each spouse so that he knew where they were coming from. 

But to me he sounds like a waiter taking an order.

If I were a spouse who wanted reconciliation, no way would I stay with someone who didn't take marriage seriously enough to at least frame this question in a more sensitive way. A bad marriage counselor can undo the work of a thousand good ones.


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## Lon

iheartlife said:


> The counselor doesn't need to tell you you're supposed to want to stay married--but in my view they should operate from that premise or why bother with counseling?


But by asking this upfront it prevents the heartache and torture of investing all kinds of emotional energy and time based on the false pretense that the checked out spouse wants to save it. The checked out spouse simply wants to alleviate their guilt and shame over being the one to unilaterally end it, and if they can passively get their loyal spouse in agreement through professional counselling it makes them feel better about the way it is going to end.

To me there is no pvssyfooting around the issue, she is in or out, and for the MC to feign pleasantness in order to stroke the OP's issue he is not doing his job. Divorce is unpleasant, pretending like it is, or selling hope where there is none would only cause more harm. If the wayward WANTED reconciliation this would not be an issue, but because the wayward is done there is NOTHING a loyal can do except let them go and work on themselves.


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> The counselor doesn't need to tell you you're supposed to want to stay married--but in my view they should operate from that premise or why bother with counseling?
> 
> Although maybe all he was doing was taking the temperature of each spouse so that he knew where they were coming from.
> 
> But to me he sounds like a waiter taking an order.
> 
> If I were a spouse who wanted reconciliation, no way would I stay with someone who didn't take marriage seriously enough to at least frame this question in a more sensitive way. A bad marriage
> 
> counselor can undo the work of a thousand good ones.




I like the way the counselor approached her.... Put her right on the spot. He did agree that something didn't add up - that she could say we were just friends that got married. He said friends don't do the kind of things we did, people that are in love do. We needed to find out why she changed. I commend all of you on looking into the OM theory. Sometimes it is tough to see when you have blinders on. 
@Lon- She did purchase some 4" fire engine red heals and wore them out the other weekend. I thought that was weird.

She also told me that the # I had noticed her talking to for about 45 min a day she stopped calling b/c she didn't want me to think anything. She said he works at a different store and understands her when she talks about work. She talked to him a bunch b/c I think her job is a joke. I think this may have been the EA that caused her to reevaluate things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

Mr. T said:


> I like the way the counselor approached her.... Put her right on the spot. He did agree that something didn't add up - that she could say we were just friends that got married. He said friends don't do the kind of things we did, people that are in love do. We needed to find out why she changed. I commend all of you on looking into the OM theory. Sometimes it is tough to see when you have blinders on.
> @Lon- She did purchase some 4" fire engine red heals and wore them out the other weekend. I thought that was weird.
> 
> She also told me that the # I had noticed her talking to for about 45 min a day she stopped calling b/c she didn't want me to think anything. She said he works at a different store and understands her when she talks about work. She talked to him a bunch b/c I think her job is a joke. I think this may have been the EA that caused her to reevaluate things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EA? You mentioned she had an urge to go out more so you might want to prepare yourself for a PA.

If she stopped calling that number then she has a burner phone on the side.


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## Lon

Mr. T said:


> @Lon- She did purchase some 4" fire engine red heals and wore them out the other weekend. I thought that was weird.
> 
> She also told me that the # I had noticed her talking to for about 45 min a day she stopped calling b/c she didn't want me to think anything. She said he works at a different store and understands her when she talks about work. She talked to him a bunch b/c I think her job is a joke. I think this may have been the EA that caused her to reevaluate things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So she has basically admitted that there IS an om, but so far has completely minimized whatever it is she wants you to think of him. If she is going out wearing 4" red fck me shoes without you, it is physical, not just EA, and she has taken this underground since you started questioning. The reason she wants separation is so she can pursue this more.

You are getting fed the trickle truth, whatever evidence you confront her with she will attempt to mitigate and keep the full extent hidden, she possibly is even justifiying this in her mind by convincing herself she is saving you extra hurt.

Stop everything, investigate, do the VAR and even consider hiring a PI to get any unarguable evidence of the PA you can, then expose it to your W's family and friends and find out if the OM is married or has a gf, expose this to his side as well. Your job right now is to make your W's affair as difficult to carry out as you can. It is not about you at this moment, so do not try to be a nice guy or win her approval, the more p!ssed off you make her right now the more successful you are being in protecting your marriage.


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## keko

In your state will adultery have any bearing in divorce settlement?


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## iheartlife

Mr. T, then I'm glad the counselor is helping you. I'm very relieved to hear that if it is your opinion.

Here is what those of us worried about an affair are concerned about:


YOU CANNOT FIX A MARRIAGE WITH 3 PEOPLE IN IT!!

Picture her sitting on the counselor's couch next to you with the marriage counselor before you. Now picture her holding hands with someone who is standing just outside the room. Do you honestly think that someone in that situation is going to do the hard work that counseling requires? Is she going to bare her soul? She might be honest about wanting a divorce, but as your counselor astutely noticed, she isn't being forthcoming about WHY.

I went to MC for 6+ months while my husband was secretly in an EA. I cannot tell you what a WASTE of money and time that was. 

Now that his affair is out in the open and contact with the woman has ended, we are getting so much out of marriage counseling (we are also using someone TRAINED in dealing with infidelity).

This is what I wish for you.


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## jtut21

She is going through a difficult time because it is likely she isn't feeling fulfilled in the relationship so she is looking into the past to discover where she went wrong or rather where you went wrong in her point of view. She was attracted and fell in love with you at one point and time so think back to when things were fun and exciting and start to give her the attention she needs as well as getting into the frame of mind that you had in the beginning of the relationship. You have survived this long in the relationship so focus on the things you can change and do your best to show how much she means to you by making positive change with yourself and letting her know how much you appreciate her.

All the best,

Josh


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> Mr. T, then I'm glad the counselor is helping you. I'm very relieved to hear that if it is your opinion.
> 
> Here is what those of us worried about an affair are concerned about:
> 
> 
> YOU CANNOT FIX A MARRIAGE WITH 3 PEOPLE IN IT!!
> 
> Picture her sitting on the counselor's couch next to you with the marriage counselor before you. Now picture her holding hands with someone who is standing just outside the room. Do you honestly think that someone in that situation is going to do the hard work that counseling requires? Is she going to bare her soul? She might be honest about wanting a divorce, but as your counselor astutely noticed, she isn't being forthcoming about WHY.
> 
> I went to MC for 6+ months while my husband was secretly in an EA. I cannot tell you what a WASTE of money and time that was.
> 
> Now that his affair is out in the open and contact with the woman has ended, we are getting so much out of marriage counseling (we are also using someone TRAINED in dealing with infidelity).
> 
> This is what I wish for you.



She is not going back to the counselor with me. She said she went so I would go...and to help me understand why she feels that way.
When the counselor was talking to me by myself he said that for her to say we were never in love is wrong. She may have fallen out of love but she needs to tell me why it happened.
She swears there is no one else, just that her feelings changed. Myself and the counselor seem to think otherwise. Especially 
Since she was talking to the other 'manager' so much. She finally admitted to me that it was b/c 'he understands their work and I don't listen to her about work and think her job is stupid.

As far as I can tell she only wore the fck me red heels out with her gf's. Who knows if that is true or not.
I think it's easier to think your spouse is cheating, but what if her feelings just changed?
I know it's a bs excuse.

Thanks to you folks for continuing to listen and offer advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon

Mr.T its uncanny reading your thread, and I'm still sorta triggering reading you story because your W is giving you the exact same words mine was. My ex was 30 at the time, was going out with her girls, said she doesn't remember ever being in love, maybe at the beginning, was willing to go to counselling simply to see where it went off track and to help me understand and heal (very condescending and also certain in her decision). I don't know if it was MLC or not, for me it wasn't "easier" to think it could be cheating, I couldn't even wrap my head around it, there was no way I thought it was possible, until I really decided to dig AND LET MY MIND PROCESS WHAT MY EYES WERE ACTUALLY SEEING and then I realized it WAS THE CHEATING THAT WAS MAKING ALL THIS POSSIBLE, THE FOG IS WHAT HELPS CONVINCE THEM TO CHECK OUT. And of course, it hurt real bad to see the evidence when I finally decided to look for it and found it - but atleast it did start to make sense, even as foolish as I felt, and as much of a failure. Now looking back I could not imagine how I could have processed this separation divorce if I hadn't have seen the evidence and came to this site and learn about "the fog" and how a cheating spouse can behave, so apparently out of character.


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## iheartlife

Mr. T said:


> She swears there is no one else, just that her feelings changed. Myself and the counselor seem to think otherwise. Especially
> Since she was talking to the other 'manager' so much. She finally admitted to me that it was b/c 'he understands their work and I don't listen to her about work and think her job is stupid


Do you think her job is stupid (I'm pretty sure the answer is no) but is there any truth to her saying these things--or is she re-writing marital history here?


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> Do you think her job is stupid (I'm pretty sure the answer is no) but is there any truth to her saying these things--or is she re-writing marital history here?


Of course I don't think her job is stupid. There seems to be a good amount of history revision going on.
Also telling me things from a few years ago that 'bothered her' - it is was the first I heard of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife

Mr. T said:


> Of course I don't think her job is stupid. There seems to be a good amount of history revision going on.
> Also telling me things from a few years ago that 'bothered her' - it is was the first I heard of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Re-writing marital history is another red flag. While of course it's possible that you saw things one way and she another, that she expressed her needs loud and clear but you didn't hear them or you ignored them, again, a relationship outside the marriage is often heralded by these sorts of out-of-the-blue ideas.

What I saw in my own husband for example (and this is common) was a lot of picking fights and irritability. Sometimes I thought I had serious communication problems, because he would escalate minor disagreements so easily. Turns out he was in an emotional affair. Since he recommitted all that stuff just disappeared.

So she is saying her manager 'gets her.' Do you have any idea how often they communicate? Does any of this happen via texting? Do they talk outside office hours?


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> Re-writing marital history is another red flag. While of course it's possible that you saw things one way and she another, that she expressed her needs loud and clear but you didn't hear them or you ignored them, again, a relationship outside the marriage is often heralded by these sorts of out-of-the-blue ideas.
> 
> What I saw in my own husband for example (and this is common) was a lot of picking fights and irritability. Sometimes I thought I had serious communication problems, because he would escalate minor disagreements so easily. Turns out he was in an emotional affair. Since he recommitted all that stuff just disappeared.
> 
> So she is saying her manager 'gets her.' Do you have any idea how often they communicate? Does any of this happen via texting? Do they talk outside office hours?




There was a 3 month time frame where she would average about an hour a day talking to that #. I asked her about it and since then it shows up once a week or so for like 15 minutes. Most calls we're when she was on her way to and from work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife

Mr. T said:


> There was a 3 month time frame where she would average about an hour a day talking to that #. I asked her about it and since then it shows up once a week or so for like 15 minutes. Most calls we're when she was on her way to and from work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


60 minutes a day (assuming Monday though Friday). That's 5 HOURS a week, 20 HOURS a month. To and from work. I'll bet you'd like an extra hour of her undivided attention each day--no?

Sounds exactly like my FWH, except he only had 15 minute phone calls with his AP to and from work. So HALF of the amount of time that she is spending on that #.

If he is the person she's emotionally connected to, they are communicating some other way you can't detect just yet, likely texting. Texting is huge in affairs because you can do it no matter where you are, even sitting right next to you. Does she text a lot? Have you set up an ONLINE account for the cell phone to see the number of texts (and date / time / location and dialed #) for this month?


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> 60 minutes a day (assuming Monday though Friday). That's 5 HOURS a week, 20 HOURS a month. To and from work. I'll bet you'd like an extra hour of her undivided attention each day--no?
> 
> Sounds exactly like my FWH, except he only had 15 minute phone calls with his AP to and from work. So HALF of the amount of time that she is spending on that #.
> 
> If he is the person she's emotionally connected to, they are communicating some other way you can't detect just yet, likely texting. Texting is huge in affairs because you can do it no matter where you are, even sitting right next to you. Does she text a lot? Have you set up an ONLINE account for the cell phone to see the number of texts (and date / time / location and dialed #) for this month?


How did you get him to stop talking to the other person?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife

Mr. T said:


> How did you get him to stop talking to the other person?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I was able to confirm that there was _nothing_ innocent about the communications. That is the short version.

But communicating that much all by itself is inappropriate, even if you can't figure out what they are saying to one another.

She pretty much has one foot out the door--which means that you have some decisions to make.

Do you want to try to reconcile with her, if you could? I believe the answer is yes.

If that is so, you need to know WHAT you are dealing with. Right now you appear to still be in denial that there could be anyone else. Did you confront her about the amount of time that they were talking via cell phone? Did you look at the phone bills and tell her what you saw? That would be one potential indicator that she's switched up how she talks to him.

But frankly, she works with him, right? That means she doesn't really have to talk by cell phone. I suspect anyhow that they text or email each other when they are apart. Do you want to try to find out whether or not this is the case?

Because another option is to Let Her Go. If you feel that she has made her choice, and you don't want to chase her as she runs out the door, that is a perfectly respectable course for you to take.


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> Well, I was able to confirm that there was _nothing_ innocent about the communications. That is the short version.
> 
> But communicating that much all by itself is inappropriate, even if you can't figure out what they are saying to one another.
> 
> She pretty much has one foot out the door--which means that you have some decisions to make.
> 
> Do you want to try to reconcile with her, if you could? I believe the answer is yes.
> 
> If that is so, you need to know WHAT you are dealing with. Right now you appear to still be in denial that there could be anyone else. Did you confront her about the amount of time that they were talking via cell phone? Did you look at the phone bills and tell her what you saw? That would be one potential indicator that she's switched up how she talks to him.
> 
> But frankly, she works with him, right? That means she doesn't really have to talk by cell phone. I suspect anyhow that they text or email each other when they are apart. Do you want to try to find out whether or not this is the case?
> 
> Because another option is to Let Her Go. If you feel that she has made her choice, and you don't want to chase her as she runs out the door, that is a perfectly respectable course for you to take.



Yes I want to save this. I did confront her about the time spent on the phone and she said 'he listens when I talk about work...'. I definitely think talking that much is inappropriate. I have no found any prepaid cell phones or anything like that. Since me asking about it she doesn't isn't using her cell to talk...but I agree that they are still communicating either via text or work phone. She doesn't see him at work everyday as he works at another store.

I noticed a change in her towards me when the minutes talking to this guy ramped up. She claims she was just thinking about how she feels towards me. Something is/was causing her to check out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

Buy a few voice recorders and place on in her car, another one where she spends most of her time in the house.

Are you able to read the content of her texts? Which brand phone is she using?


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## Mr. T

keko said:


> Buy a few voice recorders and place on in her car, another one where she spends most of her time in the house.
> 
> Are you able to read the content of her texts? Which brand phone is she using?


Where do you purchase these var's at?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

Best buy, walmart, radioshack.... Such as, Olympus - Digital Voice Recorder - VN-7200 activated recorder&cp=1&lp=4

Is she using a smartphone? On some you can recover even deleted texts.


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## SurpriseMyself

are you kidding me? buy voice recorders and hide them in her car? this isn't an episode of cheaters - it's real life. if you don't trust her, divorce her. geez.


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## keko

ebp123 said:


> are you kidding me? buy voice recorders and hide them in her car? this isn't an episode of cheaters - it's real life. if you don't trust her, divorce her. geez.


He wants to save his marriage. Therefore he needs to gather evidence and expose whatever right away to kill the "affair". Only then can the marriage be saved.


So since you're telling him to divorce right away, why have you been dragging your husband for 3 years now? You might want to take your own advice.


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## Mr. T

keko said:


> He wants to save his marriage. Therefore he needs to gather evidence and expose whatever right away to kill the "affair". Only then can the marriage be saved.
> 
> 
> So since you're telling him to divorce right away, why have you been dragging your husband for 3 years now? You might want to take your own advice.



Wife is moving out next weekend. She wants a separation. Said the person she was calling is getting married and that's why they talked so much.
Said she wants to draw up an agreement for the separation. After a heated discussion last night she decided to seduce me...at least I slept good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

Have you verified he is getting married or just the words of your wife? Not that it matters but remember cheaters do lie.

If you can in your state go straight to divorce, I've said this plenty of times but a seperation is an excuse to screw other people then if nothing better comes up, go back to the old man.


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## keko

Any updates?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. T

Hello all,

Sorry for disappearing but I just needed a break. My wife moved out on 7/15. She moved in w/ a girl she met on a forum (the nest) who was feeling the same way my wife is now. The other girl is currently getting a divorce. We have a separation agreement writing between us. It states we will go through a blackout period, then we will go on dates and see where it goes. It also states we will not dating other people & she will give me $1000 a month for the mortgage and bills.

The night before she left she cried and was really emotionally available for the first time in a long time. She asked to stay in my bed w/ me and she was latched on all night. She thanked me in the morning and said it felt nice. When she was leaving on Sunday we had a 15 minute hug and I told her 'I didn't want this to be over with her' and she replied 'me either'.

Some moments I am ok some I am devestated. I have been trying to keep busy but I feel like my other half is missing, very tough indeed. Our blackout period ends tomorrow so we will meet and talk. More to come.......

As always thanks for the advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. T

Mr. T said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Sorry for disappearing but I just needed a break. My wife moved out on 7/15. She moved in w/ a girl she met on a forum (the nest) who was feeling the same way my wife is now. The other girl is currently getting a divorce. We have a separation agreement writing between us. It states we will go through a blackout period, then we will go on dates and see where it goes. It also states we will not dating other people & she will give me $1000 a month for the mortgage and bills.
> 
> The night before she left she cried and was really emotionally available for the first time in a long time. She asked to stay in my bed w/ me and she was latched on all night. She thanked me in the morning and said it felt nice. When she was leaving on Sunday we had a 15 minute hug and I told her 'I didn't want this to be over with her' and she replied 'me either'.
> 
> Some moments I am ok some I am devestated. I have been trying to keep busy but I feel like my other half is missing, very tough indeed. Our blackout period ends tomorrow so we will meet and talk. More to come.......
> 
> As always thanks for the advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Man I thought this would get easier but it seems it is not. We have gone out a few times to dinner and what not. I feel like she is putting up a wall...she will saw I love you and that's it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

Mr. T said:


> Man I thought this would get easier but it seems it is not. We have gone out a few times to dinner and what not. I feel like she is putting up a wall...she will saw I love you and that's it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's leaving the door with you open just a little bit so if her venture's don't work out, she'll have you as the backup plan.


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## Mr. T

You think she is w/ someone else and leaving the door open with me?


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## keko

Mr. T said:


> You think she is w/ someone else and leaving the door open with me?


Isn't it obvious?


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## Mr. T

Well part of me wants to say that my W would never sink that low, especially since I have know her for so long. Then the other part looks at the facts: talking to that phone # for an hour a day back in the winter; keeping her cell like its attached to the hip; moving out without going to counseling, rewriting history, etc. 

This is unbelievable


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## keko

Actually it is quite believable. If you read a few stories in the Infidelity section you'll see how all cheaters follow a very similar script. 

Now the real question is what are you going to do about it?


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## iheartlife

Mr. T said:


> Well part of me wants to say that my W would never sink that low, especially since I have know her for so long. Then the other part looks at the facts: talking to that phone # for an hour a day back in the winter; keeping her cell like its attached to the hip; moving out without going to counseling, rewriting history, etc.
> 
> This is unbelievable


Unfortunately, I totally agree with keko. Why she feels she has to string you along beats me, unless she thinks she's letting you down easy.

So who calls and arranges dates? Who calls who more? She, or you?


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## Mr. T

iheartlife said:


> Unfortunately, I totally agree with keko. Why she feels she has to string you along beats me, unless she thinks she's letting you down easy.
> 
> So who calls and arranges dates? Who calls who more? She, or you?


She arranged the first date. I arranged the second one. She called more off the bat, but now it seems that
Has stopped. I haven't spoken/texted her since Tues. 

I feel like you folks are right, that there is or was someone else. She is still not ready to communicate with me and talk about the real cause. Her saying 'we were just friends that got married' doesn't qualify as a reason to move out w/o working on the problem.

It sounds like a WAW/MLC and the the realism is that I can't do anything to change her current mind. I just need to worry about me and things I can control. Being powerless is a tough pill to swallow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

Can you access her car? Place a voice recorder in it when she's at work.


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## CH

Mr. T said:


> Being powerless is a tough pill to swallow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're not powerless, you hold all the power to make yourself happy again. With her or without her, only you can do that.


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## Mtts

Mr. T said:


> Well part of me wants to say that my W would never sink that low, especially since I have know her for so long. Then the other part looks at the facts: talking to that phone # for an hour a day back in the winter; keeping her cell like its attached to the hip; moving out without going to counseling, rewriting history, etc.
> 
> This is unbelievable


180 her man. I went through the same thing. At this point I would file for divorce and just say "I need to regain my life and this is holding me back." 

You can read my story if you want, but my wife was doing similar things. I know she was entertaining other prospects. She asked to separate and I said no, divorce papers are needed. She was shocked but got them. When she showed them to me, I immediately signed and left it at that. She was hurt and yelled alot but I mostly just kept to myself. 

Turn on the cold water for someone to feel the shock. You can't let this situation remain in the lukewarm territory it is. She's definitely out at least window shopping someone. It's up to you to really stand up and say you're worth more and better than that. She might seem sweet some days but really she's just using you at this point. 

My wife couldn't stand it when I left. I cut communication all together and said I need to move on and she was crushed. I guess it turns out that when they see they've really made a life changing choice it's not easy or pleasent. You're trying to win this honorably and like a gentlemen, but honestly you got to just leave her in the cold. She'll likely respect you more and work harder for your attention when you've decieded to work on yourself.

Hit the gym, enjoy a forgotten hobby or find a new one. Catch up on some good reading or last season of Game of Thrones!  

I've been here and can say you've got to tow a hard line. She's going to take advantage of this as she really isn't thinking clearly right now. However showing her that you've got independance and strength without her is going to do a lot more good than harm. 

I wish you the best and hope that you find a good outcome!


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## Mr. T

Matt's,

What was her reason for doing this? We haven't spoken in weeks. I am going to call her tomorrow to talk. I have had enough of this bs. I deserve to be treated better, with or without her. It is sad that our relationship came to this but it is what it is, people change.


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## Mtts

My wife said that she didn't really have a reason so to speak. She said she felt overwhelmed (was finishing her Bacheolrs) suffocated, out of touch, needed to find herself, wanted to travel, didn't feel married, so and so forth. I wasn't going to put my self in marrital limbo, so I said lets just end it then. She wasn't prepared for my aggressive taking hold of it. Which is what I can say honestly did the most to save my marriage, taking the situation into my own hands and making my choices, not just reacting to her choices. 

I would say that telling her you've come to a conclusion that this is no longer a viable situation and that you need to be able to fulfill your life in a manner that is healthy for you, would help a lot. Don't get emotional, no yelling, arguing, crying, just calm rational explanation. This is when you have to just show that you've got your mind set. I told my wife I loved her but would not wait around for a separation to maybe fix things, divorce was the only option (obviously if I could have avoided the whole deal I would have).

To sum it up, in most of these cases, not much is truly wrong, just seems that sometimes we as individuals can lose site of the great things we have. In my own marriage, lack of good communication and a lack of trust. We figured this out and are stronger now than before.


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## Mr. T

Hello all and happy new year. I am excited for 2013...it time for me to move the F on.

I haven't posted in a while. I have been going the IC and just trying to get through the holidays...it was tough. I still miss her everyday. I have seen some pictures of her out living life, like the last 8 years haven't mattered. That being said I am beginning to see that there is light at the end of the tunnel. None of this mess was me, it was all her. I have begun to realize that you can only control you.....not anyone else.

I am meeting with her to finalize the paper work this week. I am scared that it is all over,but relieved that it is going to be over. I can move on in my life and begin to enjoy the simple things once again.

I am a relationship man... I love treating a woman right. I am excited to get to meet people and move on. Although the meeting viable mates part is presenting a challenge at this time it will get better.

I am a tough Italian-American sob and am up for the challenge.

Good luck to all of you still going through this mess. I am still as well but I feel we will all have better journeys ahead of us.

Keep on fighting and don't let them ruin your year.


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