# Over her cheating but now she "needs space"



## poida

Hi Guys and Gals,
Seeking a bit of advice.
8 years married, 34 years old
Happy couple, good sex life until around 2 years ago.
Essentially, because we handle issues differently we grew apart. She has a yell, buries the issue and runs away from it and I want to talk about it, analyse it.
3 months of counselling for me now.
I have found out always been fairly reliant on my partners for approval and hence lost my confidence when things started to go down hill a bit. I didn't ever get a chance to deal with my problems in the relationship and just buried them.
4 Months ago I found out she was cheating on me with an ex boy friend who she still had "abandonment issues" left over from her last relationship.
Long story, but anyway where I am at is that I have found my self, realised that there always need to be ME and then others (didn't ever realise this), and I'm kind of in a space of comfort where I can accept what has happened.
We are living under the same roof (sleeping separately), she has stopped seeing the ex and says she doesn't feel like that now. She just says that she doesn't know who she is any more and really doesn't talk to me much. She does not want to start counselling. I have pushed pretty hard, but it is counter productive.
She says she still loves me and wants the marriage to work.
So, whilst I'm pretty comfortable with myself, I'm living with a depressed wife who obviously feels very guilty, but has yet to be able to begin the healing process.
I am becoming frustrated and kind of angry at her inability to deal with the issue and being around her is just awkward now.
She hardly talks to me.
I still love her, but her silence is killing me slowly.
I have considered telling her to live somewhere else (and she had offered to do so), but I know she doesn't really want to go and she wont be back if she does go (she runs from every relationship she has ever had).
A difficult situation but your advice welcome.
Thanks,
Poida


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## lordmayhem

My guess is that the affair is now underground by the way she's acting. False R. You and her are also rugsweeping this.


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## poida

My gut says she is not cheating and I've learned trust my gut now. She offered to move out and I think she would have if she was still cheating or even questioning our relationship.
It's a different situation. Kind of down the middle of that chart. She is showing remorse in everything she does for me. I think she is just unable to begin talking about it. I think what she is feeling is overwhelming guilt and an inability to even talk about it. She says she doesn't even want to get out of bed and wishes she could just die.
I agree though that not starting the process of reconciliation is starting to mean the same thing. It has only been a few weeks since we began this road in earnest. She


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## poida

My only lingering doubt is that whilst she isn't cheating physically, she does still have feelings for the guy and is struggling to get over those. It may be they will never go and at that point it is over. What is a reasonable time to give someone. She keeps asking for time and space.


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## azteca1986

Sorry you find yourself here, poida.



poida said:


> Hi Guys and Gals,
> 4 Months ago I found out she was cheating on me with an ex boy friend who she still had "abandonment issues" left over from her last relationship.


As I understand it there are two kinds of "abandonment issues" neither of which relate to your wife:

1) Mummy still exists even when you can't see her. Applies to very young children.
2) A parent drops out of a child's life, for whatever reason. They are still too young to understand the "why?" and blame themselves.

In your wives case I would hazard:
Ex-boyfriend dumped her. she felt she had unfinished business with him. She found him again (probably on Facebook). Or she never broke contact with him. She wanted to prove to him she was (still) sexy. She had her affair but now doesn't feel sexy and beautiful and desired. She feels cheap and used.



> She just says that she doesn't know who she is any more and really doesn't talk to me much. She does not want to start counselling. I have pushed pretty hard, but it is counter productive.
> She says she still loves me and wants the marriage to work.


Well, healthy adults don't feel confused as to their identity. Talk is cheap. Going to counselling to find out why she gave herself permission to cheat on you should be a condition of "Working on the marriage". 



> She hardly talks to me.
> I still love her, but her silence is killing me slowly.


How does she expect the marriage to "work" if she doesn't want to communicate? It's understandable that she doesn't want to re-visit her bad choices, but you can't have a healthy marriage without communication. *She's made enough bad choice with regard to your marriage - she doesn't get to call the shots now.*

Read this:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

It'll help you get acquainted with what your dealing with. Many, many people have been through what you're (both) going through now.

Do you have kids?


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## poida

No kids.
I think you are pretty close to the mark there.
Her mum has always just buries any issue and never speaks about it again. My wife behaviour is a learnt one.
Her dad can't stand being around his wife for any extended period of time and he works away as often as he can. 
The abandonment issues are that her Dad always "runs away" and leaves them with a mum who pretends like everything is fine. She is practically an alcoholic now. 
So, whilst I see your point about it being my turn to call the shots now, I can see she is in a difficult place. It's a tough one. 
The fact I am here is kind of saying I'm done waiting I guess. Hmmm.


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## azteca1986

poida said:


> She is showing remorse in everything she does for me. I think she is just unable to begin talking about it. I think what she is feeling is overwhelming guilt and an inability to even talk about it. She says she doesn't even want to get out of bed and wishes she could just die.


She's acting like someone who just found out that the guy she's been harbouring feelings for all this time only saw her as a piece os a*s. 



> I agree though that not starting the process of reconciliation is starting to mean the same thing. It has only been a few weeks since we began this road in earnest. She


It's been long enough. Reconciliation is a gift that YOU give to HER. If you choose. Get this straight, once and for all.


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## poida

I know why she gave herself permission to cheat. It's because I became depressed and over dependant on her for my well being. Essentially she was my mum.
She has said she felt like she was my mum a few times. 
I've dealt with those feelings, made up with my mum and dad, got close with my mates, learned to be genuine around people (trying not to impress people). I've moved on. She hasn't.


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## poida

Thanks Azteca.
You are right. it is a gift. She hasn't taken it.
It might be time to put the foot down on counselling.
iI's that or move out.
Cheers.


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## azteca1986

Her family weren't the best example for her to experience how healthy marriages work. That's not her fault. But she needs professional help.



poida said:


> So, whilst I see your point about it being my turn to call the shots now, I can see she is in a difficult place. It's a tough one.
> The fact I am here is kind of saying I'm done waiting I guess. Hmmm.


Nobody has yet suggested you abandon her. But as it stands your marriage is going nowhere.

If you choose, you have to lead her, both of you really, out of the mess you'r both in now.


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## poida

I have been trying to get her to go to couples counselling for quite a while and she refuses. She has even stopped going to her personal counselling. We were supposed to figure out our own problems first and then deal with our marriage. I've upheld my end of the deal. I've dealt with my demons, I've joined a gym, lost 10kg, look pretty good now, have been active with friends, found connection with my parents again and she has done NOTHING.
I just feel like she is pulling further away. We hardly talk now.
I fear the only solution might be to shock her into doing something.


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## azteca1986

poida said:


> I have been trying to get her to go to couples counselling for quite a while and she refuses. She has even stopped going to her personal counselling. We were supposed to figure out our own problems first and then deal with our marriage. I've upheld my end of the deal. I've dealt with my demons, I've joined a gym, lost 10kg, look pretty good now, have been active with friends, found connection with my parents again and she has done NOTHING.


You are to be commended for the progress you've made.


> I just feel like she is pulling further away. We hardly talk now.
> I fear the only solution might be to shock her into doing something.


Are you read for The TAM Divorce Gambit?

If you want to shock her (good move), we suggest proceeding with divorce. Put it on the table and mean it. Your wife has to get the message that you refuse to carry on in the marriage as it is. Divorce is a long process that you can call off at any point.

Put divorce on the table. You'll get her attention. Her only other alternative is that she go to counselling - real action on her part. What she will have to face about herself will be painful. But it's unfair to expect you to wait indefinitely.


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## 86857

Try a 180 and do it properly. 
You may be nice-ing your way out of it as they say on TAM. 
I'm no expert on it but they say nice-ing doesn't work. 
On the other hand, the opposite a 180 can be very effective. 
Search for some threads.
Good luck and keep looking after you. 
10kilos? Well done!!!


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## BobSimmons

********** said:


> Try a 180 and do it properly.
> You may be nice-ing your way out of it as they say on TAM.
> I'm no expert on it but they say nice-ing doesn't work.
> On the other hand, the opposite a 180 can be very effective.
> Search for some threads.
> Good luck and keep looking after you.
> 10kilos? Well done!!!


To Poida and **********, let's put aside all the bull about "abandonment issues" fast becoming one of my all time BS cliches for cheating. Trying to be nice and understanding for many is what got them into trouble in the first place. Moving forward with the decision to cheat no matter which way you put it is one partner disrespecting the other. You never win back respect by being nice and understanding

So Poida let's get this straight. She cheats, gets caught, shows remorse but now she wants space? How about you? I thought I read wrong and thought you were the one who was cheated on?
So essentially you've "gotten over" her cheating but she hasn't?

She won't talk about , so you do the right thing, "give her space"..why exactly one needs space for is beyond me, in essence she's saying get out of my face, *my feelings before yours. Her cheating, her needs before yours.* You see a pattern here?

You're not putting a gun to her head and forcing her to walk the plank into shark infested waters. She should be moving heaven and earth for you. She should want to prove to you how much she wants this to work, not you getting over it and forgiving her while she pines for OM.

She wants space, give her all the space she needs by handing her divorce papers. Actions have consequences, so far you have shown her none, in fact she still wants OM putting her feelings and wants over yours. Take control because only if she's committed to R can this work. Time to bring her back to reality.


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## TRy

poida said:


> I have been trying to get her to go to couples counselling for quite a while and she refuses. She has even stopped going to her personal counselling. We were supposed to figure out our own problems first and then deal with our marriage. I've upheld my end of the deal. I've dealt with my demons, I've joined a gym, lost 10kg, look pretty good now, have been active with friends, found connection with my parents again and she has done NOTHING.
> I just feel like she is pulling further away. We hardly talk now.
> I fear the only solution might be to shock her into doing something.


 She cheats on you. You offer excuses for her as to why it happened. You do all the work to uphold your end of fixing the marriage. You "get over" the cheating in only a few months, and even though she has not done the work to deserve reconciliation, you offer it anyway. She has not done the work because she does not have to. To put it bluntly, when you act like a doormat, do not be surprised when people walk all over you. 

Also, she feared being caught, but now that she has been caught she sees that she had nothing to fear from you. If she has not already, she will soon cheat again with the other man. You have lost her respect and are not doing what you need to do to earn that respect back. She still has feeling for the other man, because he has earned her respect by being willing to lose her. The irony is that your unwillingness to lose her at any cost, even at the cost of your own self respect, is why you are losing her.


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## FormerSelf

Poida,

It's very possible that your wife is depressed and missing the "high" of the relationship, so even though you believe she has quit, she is being basically a "dry drunk"...still addicted to how the relationship made her feel, but isn't partaking...and yet isn't doing anything to heal that void either. 

This is a hole that she has to choose to climb out of.

At this stage, she will either continue to sink, sink, sink...until her life falls apart completely...or she will relapse and contact this guy and start a new one, or begin the the long arduous process of healing. These are her options.

Your options while you are doing your best to recover is to decide for yourself if you are willing to join her through the recovery process or not. I feel that her unwillingness to move forward merits some boundary-setting...at least a separation until she starts getting on it...because that is going to have to be a requirement for her to remain your wife.

I have read that shame is a big hurdle to overcome for cheaters...and the weight of it is often too much for them to cope...especially when mixed with the deadened zest for life...as a newly sobered cheater often feels there is no color in life. It takes a while to regain that...and the shame can often serve as a reason for a cheater to say "Eff it" and relapse. A strong support system is needed to help her navigate through this, but if she is just refusing to even talk about it...then you shouldn't try to assert any support from you...but you should assert that she should seriously seek group support or professional support to help her through this hurdle...or else you have to assume she isn't ready to be in a relationship.


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## Philat

FormerSelf said:


> Poida,
> 
> It's very possible that your wife is depressed and missing the "high" of the relationship, so even though you believe she has quit, she is being basically a "dry drunk"...still addicted to how the relationship made her feel, but isn't partaking...and yet isn't doing anything to heal that void either.
> 
> This is a hole that she has to choose to climb out of.
> 
> At this stage, she will either continue to sink, sink, sink...until her life falls apart completely...or she will relapse and contact this guy and start a new one, or begin the the long arduous process of healing. These are her options.
> 
> Your options while you are doing your best to recover is to decide for yourself if you are willing to join her through the recovery process or not. I feel that her unwillingness to move forward merits some boundary-setting...at least a separation until she starts getting on it...because that is going to have to be a requirement for her to remain your wife.
> 
> I have read that shame is a big hurdle to overcome for cheaters...and the weight of it is often too much for them to cope...especially when mixed with the deadened zest for life...as a newly sobered cheater often feels there is no color in life. It takes a while to regain that...and the shame can often serve as a reason for a cheater to say "Eff it" and relapse. A strong support system is needed to help her navigate through this, but if she is just refusing to even talk about it...then you shouldn't try to assert any support from you...but you should assert that she should seriously seek group support or professional support to help her through this hurdle...or else you have to assume she isn't ready to be in a relationship.


:iagree: Four months isn't that long. She could still be "grieving" the loss of her relationship (for the second time, no less). It could be that she is remorseful, but is paralyzed by feelings of loss and grief = depression, which requires professional intervention.


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## lordmayhem

BobSimmons said:


> To Poida and **********, let's put aside all the bull about "abandonment issues" fast becoming one of my all time BS cliches for cheating. Trying to be nice and understanding for many is what got them into trouble in the first place. Moving forward with the decision to cheat no matter which way you put it is one partner disrespecting the other. You never win back respect by being nice and understanding
> 
> So Poida let's get this straight. She cheats, gets caught, shows remorse but now she wants space? How about you? I thought I read wrong and thought you were the one who was cheated on?
> So essentially you've "gotten over" her cheating but she hasn't?
> 
> She won't talk about , so you do the right thing, "give her space"..why exactly one needs space for is beyond me, in essence she's saying get out of my face, *my feelings before yours. Her cheating, her needs before yours.* You see a pattern here?
> 
> You're not putting a gun to her head and forcing her to walk the plank into shark infested waters. She should be moving heaven and earth for you. She should want to prove to you how much she wants this to work, not you getting over it and forgiving her while she pines for OM.
> 
> She wants space, give her all the space she needs by handing her divorce papers. Actions have consequences, so far you have shown her none, in fact she still wants OM putting her feelings and wants over yours. Take control because only if she's committed to R can this work. Time to bring her back to reality.












Couldn't have said it any better myself. She's still trying to dictate terms. This is why I say the affair is just underground or cooled off for now.


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## BetrayedDad

poida said:


> Hi Guys and Gals,
> Seeking a bit of advice.
> 8 years married, 34 years old
> Happy couple, good sex life until around 2 years ago.
> Essentially, because we handle issues differently we grew apart. She has a yell, buries the issue and runs away from it and I want to talk about it, analyse it.
> 3 months of counselling for me now.
> I have found out always been fairly reliant on my partners for approval and hence lost my confidence when things started to go down hill a bit. I didn't ever get a chance to deal with my problems in the relationship and just buried them.
> 4 Months ago I found out she was cheating on me with an ex boy friend who she still had "abandonment issues" left over from her last relationship.
> Long story, but anyway where I am at is that I have found my self, realised that there always need to be ME and then others (didn't ever realise this), and I'm kind of in a space of comfort where I can accept what has happened.
> We are living under the same roof (sleeping separately), she has stopped seeing the ex and says she doesn't feel like that now. She just says that she doesn't know who she is any more and really doesn't talk to me much. She does not want to start counselling. I have pushed pretty hard, but it is counter productive.
> She says she still loves me and wants the marriage to work.
> So, whilst I'm pretty comfortable with myself, I'm living with a depressed wife who obviously feels very guilty, but has yet to be able to begin the healing process.
> I am becoming frustrated and kind of angry at her inability to deal with the issue and being around her is just awkward now.
> She hardly talks to me.
> I still love her, but her silence is killing me slowly.
> I have considered telling her to live somewhere else (and she had offered to do so), but I know she doesn't really want to go and she wont be back if she does go (she runs from every relationship she has ever had).
> A difficult situation but your advice welcome.
> Thanks,
> Poida


I was in an almost identical situation. 35, married 8 years, wife's a rug sweeper, I'm a confronter, wife had abandoment issues with an ex, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.... Lordmayhem is 100% right (as usual). She's may or may not still be sleeping with him but she is DEFINITELY still in contact and has gone underground.

I got the, "I need space" or a slight variation of "I need time" lines also... That's cheater lingo for, "I want him BUT I need a little more space/time to try to convince him to go all in otherwise I'll go back to you if it doesn't pan out." You my friend are being USED AS PLAN B. What your wife doesn't realize is she's only being used for sex and eventually the ex is going to abandon her again when something better comes along. 

The only way to counter that is to cut her off now! Time is up. No more space. You're in or out right now. If you think she'll leave, let her go. Call her bluff then raise the ante. Abandon her. Have her served with D papers ASAP (you don't have to follow through). Pull a 180 and go dark immediately. Take the power from her hands. She thinks she is in control but you hold all the cards. If the ex has a spouse or girlfriend expose immediately. You need to smack her in the face with a hard dose of reality. Once she becomes more trouble than she's worth the ex with dump her like last week's trash. Only then will you have a chance. You may lose her but put it this way, if you do nothing you will eventually lose her anyway. You can't nice your way out of a fight. Especially when your marriage is on the line.


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## lordmayhem

poida said:


> My gut says she is not cheating and I've learned trust my gut now. She offered to move out and I think she would have if she was still cheating or even questioning our relationship.


And what have you been doing to verify that she has gone NC with the OM? Looking at cell phone records is not enough. There are burner phones, work email, work phones, etc. How transparent is she? Do you have access to any of her accounts?



poida said:


> It's a different situation. Kind of down the middle of that chart. She is showing remorse in everything she does for me. I think she is just unable to begin talking about it. I think what she is feeling is overwhelming guilt and an inability to even talk about it. She says she doesn't even want to get out of bed and wishes she could just die.


Not wanting to talk about it is just guilt. That's not remorse. A truly remorseful WS will do EVERYTHING they can to help you heal. Its about being empathetic to your feelings. Its still all about her. You are the BS here, not her.



poida said:


> I agree though that not starting the process of reconciliation is starting to mean the same thing. It has only been a few weeks since we began this road in earnest. She


You are not in R, you are in False R. You are doing all the work for R. This is why it will not work. She has to be the one who is doing the heavy lifting. The chance for R must be earned by the WS (her). 



poida said:


> I know why she gave herself permission to cheat. It's because I became depressed and over dependant on her for my well being. Essentially she was my mum.
> She has said she felt like she was my mum a few times.
> I've dealt with those feelings, made up with my mum and dad, got close with my mates, learned to be genuine around people (trying not to impress people). I've moved on. She hasn't.


You are so so obviously codependent that you cannot go thru with any divorce proceedings despite what you say. You also need to seek counseling for your codependency issues. This is also why you need to practice the 180. We are not allowed to post the 180 guidelines, so you will have to look them up for yourself. The 180 helps you with codependecy and helps you detach from her to prepare yourself for life WITH or WITHOUT her.


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## bandit.45

TRy said:


> She cheats on you. You offer excuses for her as to why it happened. You do all the work to uphold your end of fixing the marriage. You "get over" the cheating in only a few months, and even though she has not done the work to deserve reconciliation, you offer it anyway. She has not done the work because she does not have to. To put it bluntly, when you act like a doormat, do not be surprised when people walk all over you.
> 
> Also, she feared being caught, but now that she has been caught she sees that she had nothing to fear from you. If she has not already, she will soon cheat again with the other man. You have lost her respect and are not doing what you need to do to earn that respect back. She still has feeling for the other man, because he has earned her respect by being willing to lose her. The irony is that your unwillingness to lose her at any cost, even at the cost of your own self respect, is why you are losing her.



:iagree:

Read this post again Poida. Then read it again. Then again. 

Ask her to move out. Her moping and mourning the loss of her love is only dragging you down. All she wants is for you to feel sorry for her. Do the exact opposite. Telle her you are not responsible for her cheating. Tell her to grow the fvck up and act like an adult. 

Go see a solicitor and find out your rights. Maybe even start filling out the divorce paperwork.


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## Clay2013

I agree strongly with BobSimmons. I think you need to plan your departure from this marriage. If she was really sorry she would be the one doing all the heavy lifting. Not you. In either respect what could you possibly hope to come of this marriage at this point. Even if she gets out of being depressed or what ever she is going through she still has the ability to cheat on you again. 

I personally would walk away. 

Clay


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## F-102

"I need space" is usually womanese for "I've met someone..."

But in your case, "I need space" means: "I still want to explore the possibility of being with the OM, but I need you to be patient and wait right here at home to welcome me back with open arms like the doormat I know that you are in case it doesn't work out with him..."


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## 6301

poida said:


> Hi Guys and Gals,
> 
> We are living under the same roof (sleeping separately), she has stopped seeing the ex and says she doesn't feel like that now. She just says that she doesn't know who she is any more and really doesn't talk to me much. She does not want to start counselling. I have pushed pretty hard, but it is counter productive.
> She says she still loves me and wants the marriage to work.


 She may not be cheating ON you but she's still cheating you. 

She isn't willing to help the situation when you extend a glad hand and help her through it. IMO your more than happy to go half way or more with her and she doesn't want or feel like moving off of square one.

If it were me, I would let her know that you have told her your were willing to work things out and she's coming up with one too many flimsy excuses and that's unacceptable to you and if she isn't willing to at least meet you half way which is more than fair considering that your the one that was betrayed then tell her to take her "needed space" some place else. 

It takes two to make a marriage work and so far it's you that are the only one willing to try. Let her know in a serious way that your not putting up with it any longer and if the marriage fails, then you could look yourself in the mirror and be able to look back at yourself without guilt. 

She should consider herself lucky that she has a husband that is willing to work it out because she could have been thrown out for her bad behavior. 

It's time for her to get off her butt and put something back in the marriage since she was the one who ruined it. Don't play nice guy with her any longer because so far, she's bitten the hand that feeds her.


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## treyvion

poida said:


> My gut says she is not cheating and I've learned trust my gut now. She offered to move out and I think she would have if she was still cheating or even questioning our relationship.
> It's a different situation. Kind of down the middle of that chart. She is showing remorse in everything she does for me. I think she is just unable to begin talking about it. I think what she is feeling is overwhelming guilt and an inability to even talk about it. She says she doesn't even want to get out of bed and wishes she could just die.
> I agree though that not starting the process of reconciliation is starting to mean the same thing. It has only been a few weeks since we began this road in earnest. She


"Sure you can move out, but I'm going to monitor your phone calls, your facebook and twitters, all your personal web accounts, and your cars position using gps." Also slip some var's in there for good measure.

When someone say's they "need space", especially a cheater it's because they cannot feel responsible to you because it hurts them, makes them feel closed in, makes them feel like they are in jail, not free, etc.

It's usually a bad sign and a stepping stone on the way fully out.


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## Thorburn

I agree with most of the posts. The "I need space" is not remorse. It is a false R for whatever reason. "I need space" is a hugh phrase, in that she is telling you that you are not important at this time in her life. I got the "I need space" at least three times in my marriage from my wife and she was cheating everytime. 

My wife grieved the end of her A. It took several months. I did not like it but I understood it, due to TAM educating me.

But my wife never said "I need space" after she came clean. Time to grieve, yes, but she was committed to the M and me.

I am not seeing this in your wife.


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## Mo42

why was my thread locked?


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## workindad

How long was she cheating last time before you caught it? Trusting your gut is good but not perfect. Your wife does not sound remorseful except for maybe and I mean maybe the loss of her boyfriend. I need space sounds like she has someone else or wants someone else. Sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Graywolf2

It seems to be all about your WW and her needs.



poida said:


> I know why she gave herself permission to cheat. It's because I became depressed and over dependant on her for my well being. Essentially she was my mum.


You use the above as an excuse for her cheating. Well, what about your needs? When you were “over dependent on her for your well being” she had no problem kicking you to the curb for the OM. She came first.

She had no consideration for you when you needed her most. Did she suggest counseling to help you resolve your excessive need of her? No, she abandoned you emotionally and physically (physically by f**king another guy). 

Can you think of anything worse she could have done to you in your vulnerable state?

Your wife seems to think it’s all about her and her needs and you seem to agree. You are even finding excuses for her to cheat. 

Quit enabling her and follow the good advice you are getting on this site.


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## harrybrown

Did you expose the affair far and wide?

Has she given you all her passwords? It takes two working hard to make a marriage work. She is not trying at all.

She cheated with the OM and you get nothing. Did she get tested for stds?

You will not nice her back into the marriage. She is not doing anything positive. How would she feel if you had an affair?

File for divorce. See if she ever wakes up from the affair fog. She does not respect you. Respect yourself. Find someone that will respect you.


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## poida

Hi Guys and Gals.
Thanks for all the advice overnight.
I confronted her last night (before I read most of these replies) and she essentially said she felt like she felt like she didn't have a future with me during the last year. She said that after the holiday she had recently (Bali yoga retreat) that she felt good about us again. Essentially the argument became all about her hardship during the last year of our relationship and how I was the one who made her miserable. She said she told me all the time about things and I didn't listen. Boo fricken hoo. All I heard was that it was all about her. I got mad and said that if she felt like she had no future with me that she should move out - now. I yelled that a few times and said I didn't care about her problems. She said we can't afford that (we can), and I said I don't care, move out. Kept carrying on about everything being on my conditions and my terms. I was confused by this but just said well you slept with someone and there is only one way I can move forward with this. 

Things calmed down and we spoke about our miscarriage 3 years ago and our inability to have kids since (I have low sperm count). She asked if I felt we had a future and I said yes I do. She seemed shocked by that. I said that I still wanted to have a family and I have learned from my past about my dependence issues. I said I wanted to do IVF and she said she didn't want to go through that. She said why didn't you agree to adopt? I said that I want my own blood and that is not unreasonable. Stalemate. Nothing from her. I could see her head ticking. It seems like her whole decision about me not being a suitable partner was because of the inability to have a family. HURT! 

Then she turned the blame game back around and said she wasn't moving out and she can take me to court. I was like WHAT!. At that point she shut the argument down and said she couldn't talk about it anymore, that she was mentally exhausted. 

After things calmed down again she did come see me and offered to move out and I said that if we are talking about things now then I would prefer o continue with that and I don't think she has to. I wish at that time I had set some goals in place.

Now, this morning, just before leaving to work, she says she is catching up with a work friend after work and will see me later.
I read all of your messages now and it seems clear she has taken back the upper hand again and is playing me like a fiddle.
F*CK. Why am I such a push over. Mad as hell.

I am going to confront here again tonight and if no suitable outcome, tell her it's over.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I have been trying to get her to go to couples counselling for quite a while and she refuses.


Then she will cheat again.


----------



## Chaparral

She's in a mess up to her butt and she goes on a gno? I would really be wondering where she really is.


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## poida

Yes, I question who she is seeing. Doesn't sound right.


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## poida

Quick update guys and gals.
I just put the challenge down. 
I told her that if she wants to be with me she will have to prove it and quickly and that I expect to do counselling if that is what she wants. If she is not willing to do that then I am sick of it being all about her, me being a pushover and a plan B and it is over.


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## MattMatt

OK. She cheated. You didn't. 

Then... why are you the one doing all the work, all the heavy lifting?:scratchhead:

She needs to get professional help, perhaps from her MD.


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## TheFlood117

Serve her Divorce papers. And see if she want's to talk. 

My guess, she'll be a real chatty cathy after that.


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## turnera

poida said:


> Quick update guys and gals.
> I just put the challenge down.
> I told her that if she wants to be with me she will have to prove it and quickly and that I expect to do counselling if that is what she wants. If she is not willing to do that then I am sick of it being all about her, me being a pushover and a plan B and it is over.


And...she said...?


----------



## VFW

You need to consult with an attorney and safeguard your finances. Like you agree that most marriages can be saved, but it takes the hard work and dedication of both parties. Make a plan for moving forward and when it is time to enact that plan, do it decisively.


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## poida

She said nothing. I will see what that comes to later after work.


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## TheFlood117

She is still cheating ugghh. So obvious. 

Divorce her and get custody of kids. She's G.O.N.E. Bro.


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## poida

BTW guys and girls, 
When can you serve papers in the US?
In Australia you need to be "separated" for a year before you can do that. Which is what makes it so hard right now. To cut and run is very difficult.


----------



## TheFlood117

poida said:


> BTW guys and girls,
> When can you serve papers in the US?
> In Australia you need to be "separated" for a year before you can do that. Which is what makes it so hard right now. To cut and run is very difficult.


Anytime here in the states. 

I've heard this about the Down Under. I guess your in the sh!t for 365. Sorry.


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## poida

I think can be good and bad. Good when there is a dialogue but difficult emotional issues to deal with, but bad when the person can't communicate in a constructive manner to try to resolve these issues (and prevent them in future) and has never been able to.
It also supports the sanctity of marriage which I believe in.


----------



## Malcolm38

poida said:


> I think can be good and bad. Good when there is a dialogue but difficult emotional issues to deal with, but bad when the person can't communicate in a constructive manner to try to resolve these issues (and prevent them in future) and has never been able to.
> It also supports the sanctity of marriage which I believe in.


Unfortunately it's a one way marriage.


----------



## poida

Malcolm38 said:


> Unfortunately it's a one way marriage.


Well, yeah. I am beginning to accept that now.
I'm not far away from ending it at the moment.
The problem I am having here is that she just isn't the sort of person who can come back after moving out. Once she is gone, she is gone forever. Quite different to the way a lot of other women respond in that situation.


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## turnera

So you'll give up all your dignity just to keep her from leaving?


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## 3putt

turnera said:


> So you'll give up all your dignity just to keep her from leaving?


Seems to be a lot of that going around here these days. Starting to think (once again) that Shaggy had the right idea.


----------



## poida

Just sent her a message.
Her response (very shortened); I am hurting right now but that doesn't mean I don't love you and want to work on us. I am only just discovering how I am feeling and have been numb for so long. Each time you threaten me with ultimatums I just want to run away. It is going to take me time to figure out how I feel. Im sorry I know this is hurting you by me trying to get my **** together. I'm just trying to get by each day and I can't make my feelings make sense to me any faster.

My response (also very shortened); You need to work at your own pace but you also need to accept that inaction and silence is far more devastating than telling me things that are hard to hear.I love you and want to make this work but I'm at breaking point and cannot continue like this. I need to move forward and I am prepared or the worst but honestly I would rather do it with you.


----------



## lordmayhem

My response to that same old crap would be: GTFO. 

Just about every successful R here has followed the same path, including mine: The WS busts their ass to do anything that will help recover the marriage and rebuild trust. Yours is still spouting the same crap and keeping you at arms length. 

If you want to keep living in limbo and nice her back, its your choice. Its been MONTHS since the affair allegedly ended. Your situation is not unique at all. There are quite a few threads here about BSs like you who post that their WS supposedly ended the affair, yet won't reconnect or have sex. Then it turns out that the affair never really ended at all.

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.


----------



## poida

I would agree on that info but I left out a few bits that made my point a bit clearer. I have made it clear I am not waiting any more.

Her most recent response is better.
We are having a night off (she is going to stay with a friend that I trust and talk to), and we are having dinner tomorrow night to catch up to talk about us and plan some counselling. It's the biggest step yet.
I'm not sure anybody here would walk away from that in the same situation.
I can thank everybody here for giving me the balls to force the situation to progress. 
I know there is still more brute force required and that will come.


----------



## Rushwater

poida said:


> I would agree on that info but I left out a few bits that made my point a bit clearer. I have made it clear I am not waiting any more.
> 
> Her most recent response is better.
> We are having a night off (she is going to stay with a friend that I trust and talk to), and we are having dinner tomorrow night to catch up to talk about us and plan some counselling. It's the biggest step yet.
> I'm not sure anybody here would walk away from that in the same situation.
> I can thank everybody here for giving me the balls to force the situation to progress.
> I know there is still more brute force required and that will come.


I'm sorry that you are in this situation, my friend, but I'm here to tell you, she is simply buying for time. If you really want to get to the bottom of her crap, demand a polygraph immediately, or the marriage is OVER, EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY. Yes, polygraphs can be expensive, but you will, more than likely get a parking lot confession (as in, she confessess everything, in the parking lot, just prior to the polygraph). You sir, are being played. Someone earlier said that if she really loved you, she would be moving heaven and Earth. She IS NOT in love with you. She absolutely, DOES NOT RESPECT YOU. You are a Plan B. The problem is, although you feel that you have become a better person (ie. you are over her cheating; weight loss, etc.) your actions SCREAM of codependency. When you mentioned that "when she is gone, she is gone for good", you were basically disclosing your worst fear. If she was in love with you, I can assure, she would NOT be gone for good. You, however, already know that she is not in love with you. Praise God that you do not have children with this woman. Get out now, while you are still young, and find a woman who adores and respects you. I promise, you will look back on this debacle and say to yourself "WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING"????


----------



## bfree

poida said:


> I would agree on that info but I left out a few bits that made my point a bit clearer. I have made it clear I am not waiting any more.
> 
> Her most recent response is better.
> We are having a night off (she is going to stay with a friend that I trust and talk to), and we are having dinner tomorrow night to catch up to talk about us and plan some counselling. It's the biggest step yet.
> *I'm not sure anybody here would walk away from that in the same situation.*
> I can thank everybody here for giving me the balls to force the situation to progress.
> I know there is still more brute force required and that will come.


You'll likely get a lot of responses to this one. Myself, I would issue the final ultimatum. Step up or step out. This has gone on for too long already.

Does she respect you? Good marriages have three things, love trust and respect. Does she have any of those things for you and are they strong enough to sustain this recovery? From what you've written it sure doesn't seem like it. She says she doesn't really love you. You already know the trust is broken. What about respect? Women respect men who make decisions, who are resolute and decisive. Have you been decisive or have you been wishy-washy? To me it seems that you have allowed her to dictate everything. She is making all the decisions. She is piloting this ship. That is not conducive to earning respect is it.


----------



## jack.c

poida said:


> BTW guys and girls,
> When can you serve papers in the US?
> In Australia you need to be "separated" for a year before you can do that. Which is what makes it so hard right now. To cut and run is very difficult.




YOU need to get serius! Even if it takes 1 year you can always get some empty copies of D. papers and put them on a table NOW AND FAST!
She needs to be knocked out and see a man who has @@ that is not willing to be a ****holder! She needs to see a man who has no weakness and will not put up with her crap!
You need to see true remorse and untill then only 180!

If you decide to do otherwise, you will have 0 chances on fixing things..... it will only be a long drag


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## workindad

Definitely do a hard 180 and do it for yourself. 

She will keep back burnering you as she has. It really is your choice. Stay in limbo or move on. She either busts her backside to stay with you or she gets left in the dust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fordsvt

You need to do a hard 180 here. For yourself. When she sees you moving forward she may decide to step into your space. 
But you need to ask yourself if you really want her. No kids involved. I'd say the hell with it. Move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rottdad42

You have a lot going on, but if she refuses counseling and in turn doesn't want to talk about it. You're at a stand still. If you "R" and going from your posts, you will be doing all the work. It doesn't work that way. Abandonment issues run deep, which needs a lot of care, concern, love and the ability to cope. When she runs to someone else, for whatever reason, it's not good. What happens with the next problem, same thing. TRy and others have nailed it, zero respect, which leads to a whole lot of crap and resentment. Hence the justification to cheat. Either by an EA or PA. I'm not sure where you stand, knowing that someone else has loved up your wife. For me I get physically ill from the thoughts of it. It's not fair at all. Don't let her do that to you. Be strong, steel your spine, 180 to start and if you do "R", then she has to move heaven and earth just to start and then for her to get some help. That is a must. She has to know how much you are really hurt by her actions. Cause and effect. If she won't then you know what your next step is. Go give those good qualities and morals, to someone who gives a damn and won't hurt you in the deepest, darkest way. Good luck man this won't be easy.


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## turnera

So are you going to take her back if she still refuses counseling?


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## Philat

poida said:


> I would agree on that info but I left out a few bits that made my point a bit clearer.* I have made it clear I am not waiting any more.*
> 
> Her most recent response is better.
> We are having a night off (she is going to stay with a friend that I trust and talk to), and we are having dinner tomorrow night to catch up to talk about us and plan some counselling. It's the biggest step yet.
> I'm not sure anybody here would walk away from that in the same situation.
> I can thank everybody here for giving me the balls to force the situation to progress.
> I know there is still more brute force required and that will come.


Are you sure she got this message? To paraphrase: "Here's what I need to do to move forward. I would like to do it with you, but am fully prepared to do without. I am not waiting. If you cannot join me to mend this breach of your own making, then farewell." Do not describe the end of your marriage as "the worst that can happen."


----------



## TRy

poida said:


> Her response (very shortened); I am hurting right now but that doesn't mean I don't love you and want to work on us. I am only just discovering how I am feeling and have been numb for so long. Each time you threaten me with ultimatums I just want to run away. It is going to take me time to figure out how I feel. Im sorry I know this is hurting you by me trying to get my **** together. I'm just trying to get by each day and I can't make my feelings make sense to me any faster.


 She cheats on you, yet you are to understand that she is the one that is hurting? The hunting that she is talking about is her missing her affair partner, why does she expect you to understand this? She then threatens you by telling you that she will "run away" (go to her affair partner) if you continue to demand that she begin to address the issue of her affair with you. Her telling you that she is trying to "figure out how" she feels, is her flat out telling you that she has not decide to pick you over her affair partner. Her telling you that she is "trying to get by each day" is her telling you that she misses her affair partner so much that she can barely make it through the day. 



poida said:


> Her most recent response is better.
> We are having a night off (she is going to stay with a friend that I trust and talk to), and we are having dinner tomorrow night to catch up to talk about us and plan some counselling. It's the biggest step yet.


 She has given you so little, that you are making a feast our of a bread crumb. She should not be spending the night with her friend. She should be spending the night with you addressing your feelings of betrayal. She just confirmed that it is still all about her, as your feelings do not matter to her. She has not decide on you. She is still missing her affair partner. 

As for the night off and her friend that you trust, in the end she will be loyal to your wife. She may not like it, and she may fell bad for you, but when your wife recontacts the other man either using her friend's phone or in person, the friend will say nothing to you.



poida said:


> I'm not sure anybody here would walk away from that in the same situation.


 I would walk, and feel that most here would do the same. 

She is telling you that she does not care about your feelings of betrayal because she is not committed to you over her affair partner. She has zero remorse. Without remorse, you are in false reconciliation.


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## lordmayhem

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Well said TRy .


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## turnera

She will not care about you until she realizes that she WILL lose you if she doesn't.


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## bandit.45

Pack her bags for her and set them by the front door. 

When she comes home and sees them sitting there and asks what is up, say "I'm thinking you need your space too. Please leave."


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## MrHappyHat

She's still cheating. 

She doesn't think you're capable of taking any action. Why? Because until you actually DO something you're just using words. She knows the true value of words, because that's what she's been using to deceive you.

Actions matter, not words. 

Act.


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## Twistedheart

Dude, nut up. She's still cheating on you. She's still F*&king the other guy. Right under your nose and you are now what I like to call an enabler. Stop enabling her to have her cake and eat it too. It's downright disgusting.


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## Fordsvt

turnera said:


> She will not care about you until she realizes that she WILL lose you if she doesn't.


This is so true. Mine was like this after her EA too. Didn't care or perhaps couldn't see through the fog mixed up until:
-I made concrete plans to move out
-Told her I accepted the marriage was over
-House was going up for sale in June so be ready
-Did a total 180 on her and ran my MAP

This was just an EA. But she woke up fast in Nov 2013. You have to force the point and make the moves. Or she will stonewall and walk all over you.


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## tulsy

turnera said:


> She will not care about you until she realizes that she WILL lose you if she doesn't.


Ya, maybe...at best, but how sincere is that "caring" anyways? She may feel a slight itch for losing her automatic plan-B.

She's a blame-shifting lying cheater, and he's a rug-sweeping, cake-feeding doormat.

File, 180, and begin your legal separation. Get a lawyer, pronto.


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## poida

Thanks for all the support guys and gals. It means a lot. 
I have gathered a lot of strength from this forum over the last few days and it has awoken me to the plight in which I am in.
.
I went to my counsellor yesterday and essentially spoke about what I want from my life and what I need to see happen to continue with my wife.
.
I have concluded that I am not sure she is capable of the changes needed, and that a break up is now more likely than not, and I have made a point of identifying the likely remissions that she will experience, and what I will and wont accept during those difficult times. I have a strict "this is over" list.
.
Tonight marks her return home. I have read the 180 rules and agree with most of them. The one that really stood out to me was not to believe any of what she says and 50% of what she does. I am a strong believer in actions speaking louder than words and that is what I will be looking out for. I will not be showing relief or gratitude for things she says tonight. They mean nothing at this point.

I want happiness in my life and I know I can be happy without her in my life, especially knowing that I do not want her if she is unable to step up and exceed what is required to mend this marriage.

I feel prepared and strong.
Thank you all.
I will update you with any news tomorrow.


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## anchorwatch

Remember the 180 is to keep you strong and your emotions under control, not to punish your spouse. It will keep you detached, while you watch if her actions match her words.


----------



## poida

anchorwatch said:


> Remember the 180 is to keep you strong and your emotions under control, not to punish your spouse. It will keep you detached, while you watch if her actions match her words.


Thanks. It is not within me to punish my spouse so that won't be an issue. For me it is more about gathering enough strength to remain detached.
It will be a night of listening and observation.
I will NOT be imposing any terms or conditions.
I will NOT be pouring my heart out.
I will be searching for evidence of actions or a commitment to making actions.
I will be looking for evidence that she will stop contacting the EA.

Time is up. If there is no commitment or action tonight, I will be asking her to move out, and I will sell the houses and file for divorce.

I understand that even if she shows intent and action tonight, she may not have the ability to do so into the future. She may realise she is not in love with me after-all, even though she says she is. I am prepared for that. 

I know we can all get carried away on these forums, but I do appreciate the strength that your strong messages give.


----------



## turnera

Good luck tonight. Be strong.


----------



## seeking sanity

I actually disagree with pretty much everyone on this. 

I think she's being honest, but unfortunately her honesty isn't what you want to hear. She may be mourning the loss of the affair partner, she may be unsure of whether she wants to stay with you, it may be partly guilt, but probably more introspection on why she became a different person than she saw herself as.

It's hard to know.

I think the real question is how patient are you willing to be? Before you answer, you also need to realize that when she comes out the other side of this, she may very well want to end the relationship. There is no guarantee she will choose you.

Most of us that have been cheated on take the position that the wayward spouse has to work his/her ass off to regain our love/trust/etc. And that is true. However, a lot of waywards are not in the emotional place to do that.

It took a 2+ year separation for my wife and I to reconcile. Now she's awesome, very loving, demonstrative, etc. But I had to cut bait on her and start living my own life before that could happen, including dating other women. 

You seem like a sensitive person. You may want to separate more for your own sake, than trying to manipulate her into doing what you want her to do. 

It sucks. I wish you the best.


----------



## poida

I would agree with all of that.
The problem is she hasn't even been talking or doing ANYTHING about it. Regardless of what she feels, that is unfair on the other person.
I am sensitive and do care about her and want to make it work, but this also makes me particularly upset when nothing is happening.
I cannot work properly, I cannot sleep properly, I am miserable and I can no longer live in the current situation.
What I plan to do tonight is listen and observe to see if there is any significant change in her ACTIONS.
For me, if there is no massive change in her approach to the situation, I don't want her in the house. She will have to move out. I don't care if I have to pay for her rent. I need this for my mental health and my self confidence.
You can't issue divorce papers in Australia until you are separated for a year. She has time if she wants.


----------



## ing

She is a walk away wife. She is probably still in contact with OM who will be offering her support. She does not feel the slightest guilt about this because as far as she is concerned "the relationship has changed"
By you forcing the issue you are being "unreasonable and not understanding her pain" 

It does take over a year to get Divorced in AU. You will be surprised how fast it goes. It does however allow cake eating for 365 days.

By setting ultimatums you are forcing her to choose. She will bend over backwards to avoid that. Stand firm because she has zero, nada, no respect for you at all. She is listening to OM and her "friends" and reporting everything you say and do back to them




She had the affair, missed some bits of the relationship with you.
Wants it back just the way it was.


----------



## poida

Yeah, that all sounds about right.
It's funny, counselling has been so great to me, but no counsellor can or will tell you that you are a doormat and you need to get out.
Whilst we have some pretty scarred and bitter people on this site, the majority give pretty well informed advice.
This site brings courage and strength and a strong dose of reality which is exactly what I needed to get my head straight.
All that said, I am still ****ting myself about tonight. I think the less I say the better. All it does is provides fuel for her to flame me with. I'm scared and it's a big moment. I have to admit that.


----------



## poida

What the hell am I going to do if she won't move out (if I end it)!


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> What the hell am I going to do if she won't move out (if I end it)!


You legally can't kick her out but you can make her sleep somewhere else.
Stay frosty brother.


----------



## poida

She's been in another room for 3 months.
Wow.. Has it been that long?
What an idiot. I'm almost looking forward to ending it now.


----------



## poida

OK, I'm going home shortly to see what she has to say. 
Wish me luck. 
I think this is the end unless I see something pretty amazing happen in the next few hours.


----------



## ing

good luck man. I am in AU if you want to talk in our timezone


----------



## poida

Ok, so she comes home and says she is going to move out because we are not getting on well together in the same house and she wants to start couples counselling next week. 
I immediately feel worried, scared that I will get hurt again and haven't said yes to counselling yet. I agreed she should move out. I feel physically ill I am so gun shy. So I am going to sleep on it.


----------



## poida

Oh and she was all nice and trying to hug and kiss my. Now apparently I am everything to her.
When is the purpose of the 180 finished?
I would hate to feel that I have ruined a genuine opportunity to start work on us.


----------



## MrHappyHat

poida said:


> Yeah, that all sounds about right.
> It's funny, counselling has been so great to me, but no counsellor can or will tell you that you are a doormat and you need to get out.


Most counsellors don't want to piss off their income source.


----------



## poida

MrHappyHat said:


> Most counsellors don't want to piss off their income source.


Er, no I think they call it professionalism.
BUT, this forum is good in that respect anyway.


----------



## MrHappyHat

poida said:


> Ok, so she comes home and says she is going to move out because we are not getting on well together in the same house and she wants to start couples counselling next week.
> I immediately feel worried, scared that I will get hurt again and haven't said yes to counselling yet. I agreed she should move out. I feel physically ill I am so gun shy. So I am going to sleep on it.
> ...
> 
> Oh and she was all nice and trying to hug and kiss my. Now apparently I am everything to her.
> When is the purpose of the 180 finished?
> I would hate to feel that I have ruined a genuine opportunity to start work on us.


She's moving out because she wants to be able to have sex with the other guy(s) without your being underfoot to ruin her fun.

She's lovey-dovey with you because, until she secures provisioning (day-to-day material and emotional support) from another source, she needs to you to maintain her standard of living.


----------



## anchorwatch

Poida, 

Purchase , "The Divorce Remedy" today. That's where the 180 is from. It will explain the plan and how to go about it. It will answer many of your questions. You need to be the lighthouse now, for her to find her way.


----------



## turnera

MrHappyHat said:


> She's moving out because she wants to be able to have sex with the other guy(s) without your being underfoot to ruin her fun.
> 
> She's lovey-dovey with you because, until she secures provisioning (day-to-day material and emotional support) from another source, she needs to you to maintain her standard of living.


Pretty much.


----------



## turnera

Tell her if she moves out, you'll assume it's to continue her affair, and you'll go visit your lawyer.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> Oh and she was all nice and trying to hug and kiss my. Now apparently I am everything to her.
> When is the purpose of the 180 finished?
> I would hate to feel that I have ruined a genuine opportunity to start work on us.


This is common behavior according to the cheater script. She wants to make sure you are still there in case things don't work out with her lover. You are now Plan B, the back up plan.


----------



## bandit.45

Well youre damned if you do and damned if you don't let her go. 

I say let her go... let her run around and act the slvt. 

You concentrate on you. Work out, eat right, take care of yourself, get a new modern wardrobe and go back to enjoying the hobbies you used to love before you gave them up to pacify her. 

Change those locks, repaint the inside of the house and turn it into a man crib. Pack her sh!t into boxes and throw them in a storage unit somewhere. 

Fvck her. 

Stay off the beer and vegemite. Bad combo. That's why you guys lost the America's Cup.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

poida said:


> Oh and she was all nice and trying to hug and kiss my. Now apparently I am everything to her.


Manipulation tactic, she wants you to be civil so you won't fight her on anything. Its simply to keep you in her back pocket.




> When is the purpose of the 180 finished?


When you reach the indifference stage.



> I would hate to feel that I have ruined a genuine opportunity to start work on us.


LOL, dude, you are a LONG way from that. Both you and her are in a fog right now and not thinking straight.

The best way to get her attention is to take R off the table and head full steam to a D and let her try to stop you. She broke it, its up to her to fix it. The nicer you are to her the worse you make things on yourself.

Stop giving her control, no more asking questions about what she wants. Assume its over and move toward that end. If your M can be saved it will be from her doing it.


----------



## bandit.45

Tell her to shove the couples counseling up her azz. Cut off her money. Have your paycheck sent to an account she cannot access.

File for D or do whatever you have to do to get the ball rolling.


----------



## BobSimmons

bandit.45 said:


> Well youre damned if you do and damned if you don't let her go.
> 
> I say let her go... let her run around and act the slvt.
> 
> You concentrate on you. Work out, eat right, take care of yourself, get a new modern wardrobe and go back to enjoying the hobbies you used to love before you gave them up to pacify her.
> 
> Change those locks, repaint the inside of the house and turn it into a man crib. Pack her sh!t into boxes and throw them in a storage unit somewhere.
> 
> Fvck her.
> 
> Stay off the beer and vegemite. Bad combo. That's why you guys lost the America's Cup.


I have a sneaking feeling he's going to do none of that..this thread is following a certain theme..


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Tell her to shove the couples counseling up her azz. Cut off her money. Have your paycheck sent to an account she cannot access.
> 
> File for D or do whatever you have to do to get the ball rolling.


:iagree::iagree:
Please do this.


----------



## turnera

poida, you can DO all the advice you're being given here without being a jerk about it. I know that's what you think we're telling you, but it's not. Stay calm, cool, logical. Explain that you want your wife back, but a wife expecting to get to act single just doesn't work for you, and if that's what she wants, by all means, go be single, but she can't do it while still living with you. You can do this in a loving but logical way that's hard to refute. That way, she won't feel like you're being a monster or mean or whatever, just that you won't share your wife. As it should be.


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> poida, you can DO all the advice you're being given here without being a jerk about it. I know that's what you think we're telling you, but it's not. Stay calm, cool, logical. Explain that you want your wife back, but a wife expecting to get to act single just doesn't work for you, and if that's what she wants, by all means, go be single, but she can't do it while still living with you. You can do this in a loving but logical way that's hard to refute. That way, she won't feel like you're being a monster or mean or whatever, just that you won't share your wife. As it should be.


Yeah... do it like this Poida. 

Not my way. I'm grumpy today.


----------



## Acabado

turnera said:


> poida, you can DO all the advice you're being given here without being a jerk about it. I know that's what you think we're telling you, but it's not. Stay calm, cool, logical. Explain that you want your wife back, but a wife expecting to get to act single just doesn't work for you, and if that's what she wants, by all means, go be single, but she can't do it while still living with you. You can do this in a loving but logical way that's hard to refute. That way, she won't feel like you're being a monster or mean or whatever, just that you won't share your wife. As it should be.


:iagree:


----------



## tulsy

poida said:


> ...
> You can't issue divorce papers in Australia until you are separated for a year...


It's the same for us here in Canada. However, you should get legally separated...get moving on this:



PHP:


http://www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/sites/www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/files/vla-resource-family-law-in-australia-separation-and-divorce-english.pdf




turnera said:


> poida, you can DO all the advice you're being given here without being a jerk about it. I know that's what you think we're telling you, but it's not. Stay calm, cool, logical. Explain that you want your wife back, but a wife expecting to get to act single just doesn't work for you, and if that's what she wants, by all means, go be single, but she can't do it while still living with you. You can do this in a loving but logical way that's hard to refute. That way, she won't feel like you're being a monster or mean or whatever, just that you won't share your wife. As it should be.


:iagree:

At some point, you'll stop caring if she thinks your a monster or mean...you simply won't care what she thinks anymore. You'll know you're NOT a monster, and that's all that matters.


----------



## turnera

Just sayin' he doesn't have to act like an ass to get his point across.


----------



## Fordsvt

Bandit.45 your Bad Ass-I like the way you think.

If she won`t do MC then it`s time to hit the eject button. No point in banging your head against the wall..


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Tell her if she moves out, you'll assume it's to continue her affair, and you'll go visit your lawyer.


I think in our case, her moving out is a good thing. We are having a very difficult time communicating (particularly her) and I think the time apart will help her assess her priorities.

That said, I have re-enforced my "180" plan and will continue with that until such time that I am convinced this is resolved. It will be entirely conditional on her fully understanding the emasculating method of arguing (she shuts me down) and many of her other relationship damaging demeanours.

This morning I agreed that if SHE arranged counselling meetings, I would go. For her, couples counselling is actually a big step and something I know she will find very hard to do. Communication is a major issue for her. Dealing with issues has always been a major problem for her and has been engrained in her from a young age by parents who also cannot deal with any significant issue. Just bury it and run is how she has been brought up. It's a tough cycle to break and will test her to her limits.

I also decided to move the relationship to a formal separation where we are effectively single. My motives were to make her understand that her small step does not mean anything until actual progress is being made. I also wanted to let any progress be on a fresh slate. Finally, I did not want to sit waiting under the burden of "waiting" within a relationship at the moment. This of course upset her, but I think it empowers me in the situation.

She said last night that she was not communicating with the EA anymore and that it was destructive to her life as well as ours. To me this is simply confirmation that he blew her off. Advice given in this forum has prepared me for this moment and to see this simply as a shift back to plan B and that I need to tread very carefully.

I tested this by asking whether she has removed all connections with the EA and his friends (phone numbers, SMS, Facebook, email). I was calm and made sure it was phrased in a way that it was her choice, but that it is important to me. This made her mad. She said that I can't dictate to her and tell he what to do. She stormed out of the house and went to work, and to me is confirmation of plan B not playing along with her game. 

To be honest, I kind of expected this reaction and it is why I asked the question. For me, it is confirmation that we are nowhere near a situation where she is fully devoted to me and in a place of total regret and remorse.

At that time I simply said that, so, you understand that the current complete separation encompasses all aspects of that, including dating other people. She said, well I can date other people too. I said "sure, but it depends what you want from your future, and whether that is a message you want to send me".
Now, I wouldn't go and date people in the current situation (no interest), but I thought it important to make her feel like I am very nearly completely gone and that she has a lot of work to do if she wants me back.

She is moving out Saturday and living with the mother of a good mate (bloke) of mine. For me, it's probably the best place she could have moved to. Isolated and away from influence, with an adult who will give her no sympathy, about as far away from the EA as possible within the metro, near friends who I trust and I know will give good advice, and close enough to me to enable meetings if that is needed.

Finances are in order. We have agreed to continue on the status quo until our investment properties are sold off. 

My next step is to hit her with the finishing of the renovation of our family home and sale of that house too. I will save that nugget for a time when I see it is needed.

Sorry for dribbling here, but I'm worried that this has just become a GAME for me now to prove a point. I guess if I stay happy and positive and just keep the 180 in play for now.

A lot of you have said to leave her and move on but I know that her sheer incapability to discuss these things has made this look like a cut and dry cheater with no interest in making us work, but I think it is more complicated than that and I think it deserves a go at it at least with 180 in play.


----------



## turnera

It's not a game if you are really willing to walk away. It's your principles.


----------



## poida

Well, yes, I was ready to walk away.
And I'm not yet seeing complete remorse and commitment.
So I guess it's not malicious, it's just how it is.
Thanks.


----------



## Nucking Futs

poida said:


> At that time I simply said that, so, you understand that the current complete separation encompasses all aspects of that, including dating other people. She said, well I can date other people too. I said "sure, but it depends what you want from your future, and whether that is a message you want to send me".


She was already dating other people. This just evens the playing field.


----------



## turnera

Remorse won't be overnight, especially if she still has feelings for OM. And don't forget to be taking an honest look at your side of the street, so she has a good reason to work hard to get you back.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Remorse won't be overnight, especially if she still has feelings for OM. And don't forget to be taking an honest look at your side of the street, so she has a good reason to work hard to get you back.


Oh don't worry, I have. 3 months of very constructive counselling, the finding of myself (for the first time), the release of emotional dependence on others, growth of self confidence, 10kg of weight loss (hello abs!), recognition of my desperate need for approval by my wife in the past, reconciliation with my parents (who I had abandonment issues with after their divorce), making sincere and lasting connections with the friends I care about, re-focus on what I want from my future, scheduling a performance review at work and finally, beating depression. I've been working bloody hard and I feel really good. 

My wife has done nothing but continue to damage herself and her marriage. It's time for her to step up. I'm here, I'm better than ever and I'm ready to begin a genuine reconciliation if she wants it bad enough. She needs to be willing to work on the issues that put us down this path in the first place or this is over.


----------



## F-102

Man, she really was hoping you'd either flip out or cave in. Bully for you, sir! You stood fast!


----------



## tom67

Have a party at the house saturday after she leaves.


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Have a party at the house saturday after she leaves.


Having a boys surfing trip all weekend. Surfing, windsurfing, fishing and camping, drinking a few tinnies around the fire. It will be my celebration of solidarity.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Poida*
> I understand that even if she shows intent and action tonight, she may not have the ability to do so into the future
> 
> For me, it is confirmation that we are nowhere near a situation where she is fully devoted to me and in a place of total regret and remorse
> 
> 
> Oh don't worry, I have. 3 months of very constructive counselling, the finding of myself (for the first time), the release of emotional dependence on others, growth of self confidence, 10kg of weight loss (hello abs!), recognition of my desperate need for approval by my wife in the past, reconciliation with my parents (who I had abandonment issues with after their divorce), making sincere and lasting connections with the friends I care about, re-focus on what I want from my future, scheduling a performance review at work and finally, beating depression. I've been working bloody hard and I feel really good


. 



*Your third post above is by far the most important for you*. It seems that you have made great gains in not being dependant on your wife as your mum. You will need more in order for you to not fall back into a weak state. There will be more emotional strain in the future.


I know that it is possible that you and your wife can get back together in the future but the odds are against you. Furthermore, your posts tell me that even if you get back together that her running from problems and inability to take the ACTIONS needed to get a lot better are ingrained in her and have been ingrained for many years. It will take a radical turn around for a LONG time for her to get on top of her years of ingrained negative approach to life.

Here is what I want to ell you. *No matter which way she goes it is a win win for you to keep improving*. If you make it with her you will be much stronger and not so vulnerable to her devastating your emotions. If you stay separated and then divorce then you will able to get through that period until you are back to a new life without her being much of a thought.



*DO NOT spend any time trying to fix her that is 100% her job now. You should spend ALL of your time building yourself up and getting ready to lead that new life with or without her.*


----------



## ing

Hi 
I am afraid I do not agree.

She has reused point blank to give you access to her cell phone. She became angry because you are "invading her privacy"

The EA is about to be a PA. If not already.

You have told her that you will be single. She will see herself as such and will hook up with OM in the open because of it.

She has no remorse only "confusion" and doubt about the choices she is making.

She will try and add you into "friend zone" and believe you are being ridiculous about the new relationship you "forced her into".

When she leaves the house there is no point at all in going to couples counseling until SHE decides if she will choose you. 

This may never happen or it may happen in three or five years. 

Please do not waste your mental energy on Marriage Counseling it will just be a forum for her, rather concentrate on your own recovery.

Don't do what i did. False Reconciliation is just as damaging as the initial discovery.

Even a good counselor can not help when one of the people has their head so far up their own rectum that they can see their own tonsils


----------



## azteca1986

poida said:


> I also decided to move the relationship to a formal separation where we are effectively single. My motives were to make her understand that her small step does not mean anything until actual progress is being made. I also wanted to let any progress be on a fresh slate. Finally, I did not want to sit waiting under the burden of "waiting" within a relationship at the moment.


A good move for you as this is a condition for getting a divorce, correct?



> This of course upset her, but I think it empowers me in the situation.


She was happy with the situation as it stood. Why was she upset?



> She said last night that she was not communicating with the EA anymore and that it was destructive to her life as well as ours. To me this is simply confirmation that he blew her off. Advice given in this forum has prepared me for this moment and to see this simply as a shift back to plan B and that I need to tread very carefully.


Fine words from her. Now watch her actions.



> I tested this by asking whether she has removed all connections with the EA and his friends (phone numbers, SMS, Facebook, email). I was calm and made sure it was phrased in a way that it was her choice, but that it is important to me. *This made her mad. She said that I can't dictate to her and tell he what to do. *She stormed out of the house and went to work, and to me is confirmation of plan B not playing along with her game.


 Your reading of the situation is correct.



> At that time I simply said that, so, you understand that the current complete separation encompasses all aspects of that, including dating other people. She said, well I can date other people too. I said "sure, but it depends what you want from your future, and whether that is a message you want to send me".


She will interpret this as you giving her the green light to date and sleep with whomever she chooses. Her behaviour will be blamed on you.

So be it. If she was serious about R and winning you back she'd stay faithful.

Why do you refer to OM as her EA?


----------



## turnera

I do think you messed up saying 'now we can date.' I get why you said it, but the 'why' you said it was a game, and fake, and will blow up in your face.


----------



## sammy3

ing said:


> She is a walk away wife. She is probably still in contact with OM who will be offering her support. She does not feel the slightest guilt about this because as far as she is concerned "the relationship has changed"
> By you forcing the issue you are being "unreasonable and not understanding her pain"
> 
> It does take over a year to get Divorced in AU. You will be surprised how fast it goes. It does however allow cake eating for 365 days.
> 
> By setting ultimatums you are forcing her to choose. She will bend over backwards to avoid that. Stand firm because she has zero, nada, no respect for you at all. She is listening to OM and her "friends" and reporting everything you say and do back to them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She had the affair, missed some bits of the relationship with you.
> Wants it back just the way it was.


:iagree:


----------



## Acabado

ing is dead on.
Please, red his post carefully.


----------



## bandit.45

Bad idea giving her the green light to date. 

Too late now.


----------



## weightlifter

Bandit hate to disagree with you cause I think you rock.

Cmon the probability of it already being a PA is...

Cmon man YOU KNOW the answer. Out with it.... 

I hate these slow motion train wrecks.


----------



## bandit.45

Well, all I can say is he better get his game on and get out there and start tomcatting...

I agree she's already banging the OM, but it doesn't help hiom giving her the okay to do so.

Anyway, marriage counseling at this point, with her being as unrepentant as she is is an absolute waste of time and money. But if she's paying for it, then he needs to hammer her in the sessions and call her out on her crap.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

bandit.45 said:


> Bad idea giving her the green light to date.
> 
> Too late now.


And when the OP gives her a hard time because she's had sex with other men, She'll repeat back to him what he had said about seeing other people while they were separated.


----------



## ing

bandit.45 said:


> Change those locks, repaint the inside of the house and turn it into a man crib. Pack her sh!t into boxes and throw them in a storage unit somewhere.
> 
> Fvck her.
> 
> Stay off the beer and vegemite. Bad combo. That's why you guys lost the America's Cup.


You can live on beer and vegimite dude. Trust me. I know.

My GF calls my house a "very nice shed" The stuff I like is hard edge industrial or made out of dead animals. I have made a concession by getting a faux fur throw rug for the leather couch
Bow chikka wow wow


----------



## GusPolinski

poida said:


> I tested this by asking whether she has removed all connections with the EA and his friends (phone numbers, SMS, Facebook, email). I was calm and made sure it was phrased in a way that it was her choice, but that it is important to me. This made her mad. She said that I can't dictate to her and tell he what to do. She stormed out of the house and went to work, and to me is confirmation of plan B not playing along with her game.
> 
> To be honest, I kind of expected this reaction and it is why I asked the question. For me, it is confirmation that we are nowhere near a situation where she is fully devoted to me and in a place of total regret and remorse.


A repentant WS that truly wants to work on his/her marriage because he/she genuinely wants to be in said marriage (and not because he/she was dumped by AP) shouldn't react this way. I'd have said "wouldn't", but I'm leaving a little latitude to allow for the notion that we're not all quite the same between the ears. Either way, it shows a lack of remorse and lack of commitment to reconciliation. After all, OM may have backed off but that doesn't mean that she's not trying to reach out to him.

Quick question...have passwords for phone, e-mail (personal, work, etc.), social media accounts (FB, Instagram, etc.) been freely shared? If not, you should demand this. Her reaction will be quite telling. Based on what I've read this far, I'm guessing she'd react in a manner similar to what you described above.


----------



## illwill

turnera said:


> Remorse won't be overnight, especially if she still has feelings for OM. And don't forget to be taking an honest look at your side of the street, so she has a good reason to work hard to get you back.


Remorse will be overnight, if she is truly sorry (which she is not). Everytime she thinks about the om, she should see your look of horror and shock on dday. And the family she is destoying.

Everytime.

This would cut through any bs fog she is in.

If she cannot get to that place, why on earth would you want to be with her?

Never take back a cheater who has now laid witness to thier destruction, yet still loves the affair partner.

Its one thing if they somehow do not understand the damage they are doing at the time, but once they know...

Doing so is the simply being plan b. And there is no honor in that.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

Look.

You're young, you have no kids with this woman. Your marriage was over when she decided 2 cheat on you. Couples counseling is a complete waste of time and money while she continues 2 keep secrets from you.

My advice? Let her go. Free yourself in the process.

I was never a fan of the 180. I have 2 be me, be real, all the time. But my wife never left during her affair, and I didn't discover it until we'd been married 26 year and our youngest was a teenager. If she had left, the last thing I would have wanted is for her 2 come back.

You keep making demands and ultimatums. Why? Why not simply state what YOU want for yourself, and let her figure out what she wants out of life, without you in it?

Man, I wish I was young and had no kids when I found out about the affair. I'd run screaming from the room!

-ol' 2long


----------



## Chaparral

You have communication problems so the idea is to get further apart. No, wait a minute, she goes to her friends house that you trust and comes home telling you she is moving out.

Late, when you ask if she has fully dumped the OM is turns mad dingo and starts b!tching you out. 

Yes, we have seen this so many times it we can write it out for you.

Ordinarily, separation results in reconciliation 20% of the time, les with infidelity. Good luck, I'm guessing she is already with the oM celebrating. Ask her and watch her reaction.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, she doesn't have a hard time communicating with the OM. What she has a hard time with is how to lie to your face with out showing it. Thus blowing up at the wrong times.


----------



## bandit.45

ing said:


> You can live on beer and vegimite dude. Trust me. I know.
> 
> My GF calls my house a "very nice shed" The stuff I like is hard edge industrial or made out of dead animals. I have made a concession by getting a faux fur throw rug for the leather couch
> Bow chikka wow wow


Vegemite is beer isn't it? The by-product of beer making?

If I'm not mistaken, Vegemite is essentially the undigested remains of the malt that falls to the bottom of the fermentation vats. 

Here in the states we dry it out and use that sh!t for fertilizer.


----------



## Remains

bandit.45 said:


> Vegemite is beer isn't it? The by-product of beer making?
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, Vegemite is essentially the undigested remains of the malt that falls to the bottom of the fermentation vats.
> 
> Here in the states we dry it out and use that sh!t for fertilizer.


No, vegemite is not beer. Vegemite is yeast extract. Nothing to do with beer. Only yeast...broken down by enzymes.


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> Vegemite is beer isn't it? The by-product of beer making?
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, Vegemite is essentially the undigested remains of the malt that falls to the bottom of the fermentation vats.
> 
> Here in the states we dry it out and use that sh!t for fertilizer.


Vegemite is the food of Kings, bandit!

It's a brother to a UK product called Marmite. You spread it thinly on toast and enjoy it. Or not. You either love it or hate it.:smthumbup:


----------



## bfree

I've never tried it. Isn't it extremely salty?


----------



## Nucking Futs

MattMatt said:


> Vegemite is the food of Kings, bandit!
> 
> It's a brother to a UK product called Marmite. You spread it thinly on toast and enjoy it. Or not. You either love it or hate it.:smthumbup:


Are you sure? I thought Marmite was made from marmot squeezin's.


----------



## bandit.45

bfree said:


> I've never tried it. Isn't it extremely salty?


Scrape the toe-jamb out of the toe of one of your shoes and taste that. Pretty much the same flavor.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Over her cheating but now she "needs space"*



bandit.45 said:


> Scrape the toe-jamb out of the toe of one of your shoes and taste that. Pretty much the same flavor.


Yum. :-o


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

bandit.45 said:


> Scrape the toe-jamb out of the toe of one of your shoes and taste that. Pretty much the same flavor.


Or crotch cheese...

Eww... I'm grossing myself out!

-ol' 2long


----------



## poida

So, she has moved out. She didn't want to.
I am continuing with my 180 and feel comfortable doing so.
Before leaving she said she doesn't want to leave and hugged me while crying. I said nothing, did nothing, just waited calmly until she left.
I don't want to give the wrong impression about my wife here. She has some serious issues in communicating herself. It can appear cold and ruthless, but that is who she has always been. it is not malicious, just someone who has never really said how she feels deep down. I know, it complicates everything.
The same issues DO exist with the OM and she has feely admitted that relationship was damaging to her.
The same issues would exist if she did go back to the OM.
I'm in a place of in-distinction at the moment. I am happy with myself and can go either way if the conditions are right.
I consider the ball to be in her court and if she choses to return it, it had better be a good shot.
I'm happy to wait and see what happens at the moment.
I am toying with the idea of dating other people, but I have issues with the idea. I don't want to regret anything I do.
Perhaps some advice on dating other people when in theory we are starting counselling next week.
Hmmm.


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> A repentant WS that truly wants to work on his/her marriage because he/she genuinely wants to be in said marriage (and not because he/she was dumped by AP) shouldn't react this way. I'd have said "wouldn't", but I'm leaving a little latitude to allow for the notion that we're not all quite the same between the ears. Either way, it shows a lack of remorse and lack of commitment to reconciliation. After all, OM may have backed off but that doesn't mean that she's not trying to reach out to him.
> 
> Quick question...have passwords for phone, e-mail (personal, work, etc.), social media accounts (FB, Instagram, etc.) been freely shared? If not, you should demand this. Her reaction will be quite telling. Based on what I've read this far, I'm guessing she'd react in a manner similar to what you described above.


Why should any partner expect passwords for phone, email, social media accounts?????? Seems like it doesn't allow any personal space.
I don't know. I don't need to see that stuff to know what is going on. It's obvious to me now.
Does any professional make that recommendation?


----------



## turnera

In a marriage, why would you HAVE passwords on your electronics? You should be so in tune that you know everything there is to know about each other. And have nothing to hide.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> In a marriage, why would you HAVE passwords on your electronics? You should be so in tune that you know everything there is to know about each other. And have nothing to hide.


I did know them all before she cheated except for her work password. 
I still know her laptop password but she has changed her phone.
She isn't living at home now so I don't see the point. We have bigger problems.
Pete


----------



## poida

I just can't believe she did this! 
It's not fair.


----------



## Chaparral

poida said:


> Why should any partner expect passwords for phone, email, social media accounts?????? Seems like it doesn't allow any personal space.
> I don't know. I don't need to see that stuff to know what is going on. It's obvious to me now.
> Does any professional make that recommendation?


First thing you should do is to print this off and go over it with your wife. 

I hope you are not seriously considering reconciliation and dating other women too.

*Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! *


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## poida

No, I'm not considering dating really. I would definitely feel worse and would be just as bad as my wife. My morals are strong. It's guess I'm just angry and I suppose those thoughts fall into the "revenge" column. Thanks.


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## poida

Thanks for the manual. Seems good.
I'm not sure I want to take it to her though. 
Seems like it is something she should have looked up and brought to me.
I might email it to her. She can do what she wants with it.


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## Chaparral

poida said:


> Thanks for the manual. Seems good.
> I'm not sure I want to take it to her though.
> Seems like it is something she should have looked up and brought to me.
> I might email it to her. She can do what she wants with it.


At this point, you are still the leader of your family so lead. Expecting a depressed wayward to take initiative is just a plan for failure. Are you sure you just aren't ready to move on without her?


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## Chaparral

BTW, the value of the Wayward Spouse Instructions is to explain to the disloyal spouse the damage they have done. They rarely get that on their own.


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## poida

I don't want to lose her. I still love her dearly. I am willing to forgive but we need to go though the process. It just seems so unfair that I have done ALL the work so far and she hasn't even said she is sorry in a meaningful way. We haven't even started and I find that hard to deal with.
I will email it to her, sack up and call her tonight.


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## happyman64

poida said:


> I don't want to lose her. I still love her dearly. I am willing to forgive but we need to go though the process. It just seems so unfair that I have done ALL the work so far and she hasn't even said she is sorry in a meaningful way. We haven't even started and I find that hard to deal with.
> I will email it to her, sack up and call her tonight.


Poida

Everything she has done, not done so far just shows you the following:

She has no remorse.
She is not sorry.
She is not ready to work on the marriage.
She is not ready to work on herself.
She has her head so far up her @ss you have no space in her head right now.

So for now work on you. Take control of you and your life.

And be happy with yourself. 

HM


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## poida

happyman64 said:


> Poida
> 
> Everything she has done, not done so far just shows you the following:
> 
> She has no remorse.
> She is not sorry.
> She is not ready to work on the marriage.
> She is not ready to work on herself.
> She has her head so far up her @ss you have no space in her head right now.
> 
> So for now work on you. Take control of you and your life.
> 
> And be happy with yourself.
> 
> HM


Thanks. I know all this, but it is still upsetting. I don't like to live in limbo. I am moving on, but I want to share my life with someone. I'm ready for intimacy. This is the hard bit.


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## poida

I am genuinely happy. I have found myself. I understand my contribution to the degradation of our relationship and I've worked on myself to prevent communication breakdown in the future. I am fit and active. I have reconciled with my parents who I have not spoken with for years. I have made genuine, long lasting connections with my friends and I am enjoying that. I am getting out and doing things. 

BUT..... the problem I have with the current situation is that I am ready and want to MOVE ON with my life. I'm ready to be with and care for someone. I want to do it with her, but if she isn't ready, I'm left WAITING. This waiting is frustrating the sh*t out of me and it makes me feel alone.

What should I do? I can't date, I can't sleep around, I can't push the wife to hurry up. 

This is the point I am struggling with.


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## turnera

So move on. RUN on. Let her run to catch up to you by redeeming herself. 

And, if she doesn't, then you know she wasn't worth waiting for.


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## poida

How do I move on without another lover/partner in my life?
Perhaps that is the point I am missing. I don't need a lover/partner to move on.
Sounds like more counselling to me.


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## turnera

Huh?


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## turnera

You move on because you never had any control over whether you had a partner or not. Until you're able to let go, you have no control over YOUR life.

You have to let her go to have a chance at keeping her.


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## poida

What does huh mean?
I'm frustrated that I have to wait for her. Moving on with my life means seeing other people which I think will ruin any chance of us getting back together.


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## poida

I can let go and have let go (she has moved out on my suggestion).
But there is a practicality to moving on now. Moving on to me means being free and seeing other people..... which most people here think is a bad idea if I ever want to be with her.
It's a bad place to be.


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## treyvion

poida said:


> I can let go and have let go (she has moved out on my suggestion).
> But there is a practicality to moving on now. Moving on to me means being free and seeing other people..... which most people here think is a bad idea if I ever want to be with her.
> It's a bad place to be.


And you should be seeing other people...


----------



## poida

How can that be a good thing? Im battling with the idea that seeing other people being the same as retaliation which I don't want.


----------



## poida

Maybe this idea deserves a new topic.


----------



## BobSimmons

poida said:


> Maybe this idea deserves a new topic.


You already started another thread, keep at it one.

Frankly the reason you're in "limbo" is because you've got your head in the sand.. or your fingers in your ears shouting "lalala"

Your wife banged another man.
She is not sorry
She needs "space" (a) because quite frankly it's not you she's grieving over it's OM
(b) She needs to be apart from you so she can continue to communicate with OM without you looking over her shoulder
You would do anything to "fix" this, thus you wait around in "limbo", most likely you want to send love letters, texts telling her how much you love her..the usual clingy stuff which even lessens the respect she currently has for you.

It's not really complicated is it?

If she was sorry, she would have been moving heaven and earth to show you she wanted to atone for her actions. ACTIONS speak louder than words.

DDay should like falling asleep at the wheel and having a close call, that jolt of adrenaline that wakes you up with a bang. DDay should have been her jolt of adrenaline towards your relationship, it should have woken her up, *she should have asked herself "What am I doing?", She should have been ashamed, guilty, distraught, wanting to comfort your pain and be there for you*...

and yet..you got .... zip

She hasn't even said I'm sorry

Limbo is on her terms. Limbo means you don't move on. Limbo means she can sit and feel sorry that she misses OM. Limbo means she can communicate with OM without you looking over her shoulder. Limbo won't get your respect back. Limbo means she can detach from you.

Limbo ..it does naff all for you. Everything or her.

You don't like limbo, then start to take control of the situation. Quite personally if someone bangs another man and can't even say I'm sorry, speaks mountains about her and how she's feeling. Why be with someone that doesn't respect you and willing to fight for the marriage?

Forget all this abandonment nonsense. She seems to have no trouble doing things to make sure she gets abandoned, certainly doesn't have any qualms abandoning you!

Stop the nice guy act. Sit her down and start talking. She doesn't want to talk, doesn't want to commit, then I don't see any other option. Why be with someone that doesn't want to be with you?


----------



## poida

It's not quite that black and white for her, but you are right about my feelings.
I have actually spoken with her today (before reading this) and said I feel like am waiting around for her and it is frustrating. I told her that I am putting up our houses for sale. I feel better knowing that it is at least progress for me whether we get back together or not.
For me, I suppose that was the next step.
Whether it sends a message or not is less important but I guess it can't hurt.
Thanks.


----------



## poida

I think the situation has changed for her. She wants to fix the R, but is really struggling personally with what she has done, and doesn't really know how to even begin talking. It's pretty typical of what I saw in our relationship. getting an apology was like getting blood from stone. It wasn't malicious, she just didn't know how. Nobody ever apologised in her family, never. I said, well if you want this, I suggest you book counselling pronto. She has now booked counselling.
Again, less important to me, but perhaps a forward step.


----------



## illwill

No. It is that black and white. And you need to discover why you still love a woman who would do this to you.

And don not say "love".

NOT ONE WOMAN ALIVE WANTS A WEAK MAN. You are becoming less attractive to her every day.

Why?

She knows most men would not accept this.


----------



## jack.c

i think she is keeping you wraped around her finger......
Go forward with actions, and if this means to go out to meet new peaple THE DO IT!! Whatever it takes to feel better just do it!
In this moment you dont own nothing to nobody, but just for yourself!


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> What does huh mean?
> I'm frustrated that I have to wait for her. Moving on with my life means seeing other people which I think will ruin any chance of us getting back together.


Why do you have to wait for her?

You kicked her out, but you want her back? Are you playing a game?


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I can let go and have let go (she has moved out on my suggestion).
> But there is a practicality to moving on now. *Moving on to me means* being free and *seeing other people.*.... which most people here think is a bad idea if I ever want to be with her.
> It's a bad place to be.


Oh, bullshyte. She's gone one day and you're hopping to screw another woman? Come on, use your brains.

Moving on means accepting that she is messed up and needs to get her stuff together and moving on means you accepting that you just may be on your own. That does NOT mean you can date. It means you are ON YOUR OWN. The two are not the same thing.

Just because she's not in your home any more doesn't mean you're ready to go out and shag anything with a vagina the very next day. Good grief.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I think the situation has changed for her. She wants to fix the R, but is really struggling personally with what she has done, and doesn't really know how to even begin talking.


That's what psychologists are for.


----------



## poida

Wow. Some harshness here.
She came over and said she has only just realised how bad the situation was. Said she loved me and has ruined our life together and that she is sorry she hurt me.
I said I would go to counselling if she organised it but that I still need to continue with my progress. I told her that I realised that progress for me is preparing for our divorce by selling our properties.
I realised that moving on for me is not finding a new relationship as mentioned above, but moving forward for ME. 
I suppose I should accept the above criticisms for being indecisive but the current situation has me thinking about a lot of things and sometimes it is difficult to have a composed plan, especially when I don't even know where it is that this is going.
So please people, I appreciate the advice, but try to be a little companionate. Thanks again.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Oh, bullshyte. She's gone one day and you're hopping to screw another woman? Come on, use your brains.
> 
> Moving on means accepting that she is messed up and needs to get her stuff together and moving on means you accepting that you just may be on your own. That does NOT mean you can date. It means you are ON YOUR OWN. The two are not the same thing.
> 
> Just because she's not in your home any more doesn't mean you're ready to go out and shag anything with a vagina the very next day. Good grief.


Ok, not my finest conclusion, but take it easy. I'm bloody confused, lonely and I dearly miss the intimacy I had.
I have realised that moving forward needs to be within myself, not with another woman, and preparing our home for sale is filling that need for now.
Thanks


----------



## turnera

I'm sorry for being so harsh, but it sounded like you were headed out the door to score some woman, any woman, in the false assumption that that would make you feel manly again. Maybe. For about 5 minutes. Then you'd feel stupid for doing it, and feel even worse. They say no dating after breaking up for about one month for every year you were together. How long would that be for you?

Learn to be ok by yourself for awhile. That's the greatest gift you can give yourself right now - being ok BY yourself, WITH yourself. Just being.


----------



## poida

Ps thanks chaparell for the guide. It seems to have hit a nerve.


----------



## turnera

It's a great wakeup call for cheaters (if they're open to it). That could be what opens the door to her doing the hard work.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> I'm sorry for being so harsh, but it sounded like you were headed out the door to score some woman, any woman, in the false assumption that that would make you feel manly again. Maybe. For about 5 minutes. Then you'd feel stupid for doing it, and feel even worse. They say no dating after breaking up for about one month for every year you were together. How long would that be for you?
> 
> Learn to be ok by yourself for awhile. That's the greatest gift you can give yourself right now - being ok BY yourself, WITH yourself. Just being.


12 years. I agree about just focussing on how to be ok by myself.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> It's a great wakeup call for cheaters (if they're open to it). That could be what opens the door to her doing the hard work.


I hope so. I also made it clear that we have a lot of trust and communication issues that need resolving before I would even consider allowing her to be moving back in.


----------



## turnera

Have you ever looked at a 'list' of what a BS needs from a WS to consider reconciliation?


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Have you ever looked at a 'list' of what a BS needs from a WS to consider reconciliation?


Is that the one lord mayhem posted on page 1 of this thread?

If no, where do I find?


----------



## turnera

Hmm, not sure if there's an official one. But it will look something like:
WS must hand over all passwords to all electronics
WS must be willing to have 100% transparency for the foreseeable future, letting you know where they are, etc.
WS must write OM a NC letter that YOU read, approve, and send.
WS must tell his/her parents what he/she did and ask their forgiveness, in your presence (I always add this one in, others may not; I think it's important)
WS must find IC and MC and set up the appointments and go religiously
WS must write out timeline of every little detail (timewise) of the affair for you and always be willing to answer any question without becoming defensive, for the foreseeable future
WS must honor your wishes in terms of living arrangements and not pressure you one way or the other

You may want to add a polygraph, a post-nup agreement, or other things that others here may chime in with.


----------



## Acabado

This is a very short ebook which basicaly expands a little the "manual" given a cpouple of pages back.

How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair - A compact manual for the unfaithful


----------



## poida

Thanks guys. That's great.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

turnera said:


> Hmm, not sure if there's an official one. But it will look something like:
> WS must hand over all passwords to all electronics
> WS must be willing to have 100% transparency for the foreseeable future, letting you know where they are, etc.
> WS must write OM a NC letter that YOU read, approve, and send.
> WS must tell his/her parents what he/she did and ask their forgiveness, in your presence (I always add this one in, others may not; I think it's important)
> WS must find IC and MC and set up the appointments and go religiously
> WS must write out timeline of every little detail (timewise) of the affair for you and always be willing to answer any question without becoming defensive, for the foreseeable future
> WS must honor your wishes in terms of living arrangements and not pressure you one way or the other
> 
> You may want to *add a polygraph*, a post-nup agreement, or other things that others here may chime in with.


I think a polygraph would go a long way in that the BS would have a much better idea of what he's going to try to forgive and R to.

I how ever don't think his WS will agree to take one. We all know how much WS's minimize and lie by omission. There's a good chance that he does not yet know everything/she has told of everything she's done.

If he did ask her to take one, her reaction alone would be very telling.


----------



## turnera

I don't think he should ask anything of her. He should settle into his new life, let her sink or swim, and see if she takes an active step toward fixing things in the next 6 months to a year. If she doesn't, he needs to know that, too.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> I don't think he should ask anything of her. He should settle into his new life, let her sink or swim, and see if she takes an active step toward fixing things in the next 6 months to a year. If she doesn't, he needs to know that, too.


6 months to a year? Oh god I hope not.


----------



## turnera

Which is why we are telling you: MOVE ON.

STOP basing all your decisions on whether she will or won't be in your life.


----------



## weightlifter

She is boffing other dude(s) as we speak at her new place right?

Reconcile? AYFKM?

Agree with Tunera on move on.
Agree with her that you are too raw to get into a relationship.
Disagree with her on one thing. Once d is filed. Go to house parties. Actively work your social life up with other dudes doing dude stuff. Eventually a woman at a party will flirt and you will flirt back.... You will get the opportunity to fvck her. DO IT! Ive seen too many egos come back hardcore to advise otherwise. Pvssy is superglue for that shattered ego of yours. Dont go overboard and screw 999 women but one to three will dowonders for most men.


----------



## illwill

Forget about taking her back. And only speak about children. Move on. 

Put the burden on her to prove she deserves you. 

Skip the therapy. Put that money towards divorce.

Do all this and if she still wants to reconcile consider it.

She left you for him. That is a fact. 

She needs to earn the right for you to even consider taking her back.

Cutting off contact will also help you think clearer.


----------



## poida

weightlifter said:


> She is boffing other dude(s) as we speak at her new place right?
> 
> Reconcile? AYFKM?
> 
> Agree with Tunera on move on.
> Agree with her that you are too raw to get into a relationship.
> Disagree with her on one thing. Once d is filed. Go to house parties. Actively work your social life up with other dudes doing dude stuff. Eventually a woman at a party will flirt and you will flirt back.... You will get the opportunity to fvck her. DO IT! Ive seen too many egos come back hardcore to advise otherwise. Pvssy is superglue for that shattered ego of yours. Dont go overboard and screw 999 women but one to three will dowonders for most men.


I might be old fashioned, but to be honest, I don't see sex as purely a fling thing. For me it forms part of some sort of intent toward developing some type of relationship. I have never felt good about the whole one night stand and never call thing. It's not worth it to me.


----------



## workindad

OP- sorry, but it looks to be time to stick a fork in it and move forward with your life... without her in it as a spouse or SO.


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> Forget about taking her back. And only speak about children. Move on.
> 
> Put the burden on her to prove she deserves you.
> 
> Skip the therapy. Put that money towards divorce.
> 
> Do all this and if she still wants to reconcile consider it.
> 
> She left you for him. That is a fact.
> 
> She needs to earn the right for you to even consider taking her back.
> 
> Cutting off contact will also help you think clearer.


Sh*t guys. I'm not sure this is the most constructive advice. I only have to look at the stats to see that there are a lot of people who have been burned in my position and I can appreciate that your opinions will be formed that way as a result, but PLEASE..... I am not a stat yet. Let's keep this positive.

I'm here to get advice with intent of gradually allowing the repair of the relationship with my wife. Isn't it what the whole site is about? 

Perhaps read my earlier posts about what I have already achieved before taking such a hard and bitter line. 

Taking some time to be alone, working on myself, spending quality time with family and mates, attending social events and moving on with personal plans assuming the worst case scenario are positive things. I do not consider burning bridges to be a positive or constructive thing to do. 

Skipping counselling that has been arranged by my wife to me is burning a bridge. If no progress is made during those sessions, then, yeah, I would agree that perhaps her heart isn't really in it, or the relationship may not be worth saving.

I agree with a lot of observations here, but I'm not sure that cutting her off completely is constructive.

I appreciate the warnings about keeping my distance and letting her do all the hard work, so I will take that advice and keep moving forward on my own.


----------



## poida

weightlifter said:


> She is boffing other dude(s) as we speak at her new place right?


NO, she is not banging the OM. I would find out. And if she is (say by going to his place), I will eventually find out, and it will be over for good.


----------



## poida

workindad said:


> OP- sorry, but it looks to be time to stick a fork in it and move forward with your life... without her in it as a spouse or SO.


Explain yourself. What is it exactly that makes you say that.


----------



## Nucking Futs

poida said:


> Sh*t guys. I'm not sure this is the most constructive advice. I only have to look at the stats to see that there are a lot of people who have been burned in my position and I can appreciate that your opinions will be formed that way as a result, but PLEASE..... I am not a stat yet. Let's keep this positive.
> 
> I'm here to get advice with intent of gradually allowing the repair of the relationship with my wife. Isn't it what the whole site is about?
> 
> Perhaps read my earlier posts about what I have already achieved before taking such a hard and bitter line.
> 
> Taking some time to be alone, working on myself, spending quality time with family and mates, attending social events and moving on with personal plans assuming the worst case scenario are positive things. I do not consider burning bridges to be a positive or constructive thing to do.
> 
> Skipping counselling that has been arranged by my wife to me is burning a bridge. If no progress is made during those sessions, then, yeah, I would agree that perhaps her heart isn't really in it, or the relationship may not be worth saving.
> 
> I agree with a lot of observations here, but I'm not sure that cutting her off completely is constructive.
> 
> I appreciate the warnings about keeping my distance and letting her do all the hard work, so I will take that advice and keep moving forward on my own.


Here's the problem. The advice you're rejecting as too hard core for your situation is actually the best way to bring her back to the relationship. There's a saying on this board, "you can't nice her back to you." 

See, here's the thing. Taking things slow and methodical is like boiling a frog. Drop a frog into a pot of boiling water and it's going to shoot out of there in a heart beat. Put a frog in cold water and slowly bring the heat up and it will be cooked before it knows it's in danger. 

What's being advised to you is a swift, massive strike at her. This is not necessarily the best way to divorce her but like a frog being dropped into hot water, the high-speed attack has the best chance of causing her to leap out of the affair and back into the marriage.

So to summarize, your wife is the frog, the pot is the affair, the slow way is the cold water and "shock and awe" is the boiling water. We want you to make it too hot for her to stay in the pot.

And not to be rude, but how much experience do you have in breaking affairs? Compare that to the people you're disagreeing with.


----------



## turnera

I'm not telling you to abandon counseling sessions. I'm telling you to stop making your choices based on getting her to do what you want.

Until you can reach that point, you are going to continue to go round in circles, and NOT get her back.

You sound just like 80% of the men who come here, who are SO UTTERLY DESPERATE to keep their wife (bravo to you for at least kicking her out, even though you did it to manipulate her) that every step they take is still laden with all the trigger words that we all recognize.

We ARE trying to help you. But you aren't 'there' yet. You're still scrambling to control the outcome. Until you can walk away, you won't heal, you won't have a chance to do what's needed to get her to see the light.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> I'm not telling you to abandon counseling sessions. I'm telling you to stop making your choices based on getting her to do what you want.
> 
> Until you can reach that point, you are going to continue to go round in circles, and NOT get her back.
> 
> You sound just like 80% of the men who come here, who are SO UTTERLY DESPERATE to keep their wife (bravo to you for at least kicking her out, even though you did it to manipulate her) that every step they take is still laden with all the trigger words that we all recognize.
> 
> We ARE trying to help you. But you aren't 'there' yet. You're still scrambling to control the outcome. Until you can walk away, you won't heal, you won't have a chance to do what's needed to get her to see the light.


You are right of course. It's a depressing and upsetting situation to contemplate. The easy path seems like the soft one but it is actually quick sand. I know that deep down. 

Tell me, what is the consensus about sex during this "time apart" and "moving on" process. Is it damaging or counter-productive? She visited yesterday to walk the dog and pick up some mail while I was at a late work conference (she asked first and I said OK). She was there when I got home though. She desperately hugged me and cried uncontrollably for a good 10 minutes saying she was so sorry, she has ruined us etc etc. 

She kissed me when she left and I have to admit it was very, very tempting just to let it all happen after 4 months of no sex. Is sex a complete no-no? Can you kick them out, move on personally, walk away and yet allow sex to happen in those moments? I've read conflicting things on this issue? Or am I just being desperate again. I'm so confused.:scratchhead:


----------



## turnera

Well, personally, I would never have sex with a person I was suspecting was having sex with someone else.

Look, men go without sex sometimes for life. You can last a few months. Think about how you'll feel afterward. Used, laughed at, contempt felt for, whatever. Worth it?


----------



## illwill

It will feel great during. But it will set you waaaaaaay back. You will also trigger something fierce. Sex always clouds issues.

Download some porn instead.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Well, personally, I would never have sex with a person I was suspecting was having sex with someone else.
> 
> Look, men go without sex sometimes for life. You can last a few months. Think about how you'll feel afterward. Used, laughed at, contempt felt for, whatever. Worth it?


Yeah. 

I think the fact that it still feels "needy" is the only sign I need.

I think I would need to see the whole SMS chain with the OM plus have her open up and go through everything that has happened in detail before I would feel comfortable enough to let unplanned intimacy to happen. 

Ta.


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> It will feel great during. But it will set you waaaaaaay back. You will also trigger something fierce. Sex always clouds issues.
> 
> Download some porn instead.


Yeah, I agree. It would mess me up. 

After 4 months you think porn is a new idea to me! Waahaahaa!


----------



## happyman64

poida said:


> Yeah, I agree. It would mess me up.
> 
> After 4 months you think porn is a new idea to me! Waahaahaa!


Just the fact that you can laugh/joke is a good sign.

Now think of some things you use to like doing and start doing them again.

Show your wife that you are moving on without her.

Then watch her reaction.

She might surprise you and not want to be left behind. Or she might move on herself.

Either way you will be improving your situation.

The key is doing all these improvements for you.
HM

PS
Tell her to take the dog with her. You will be too busy to take care of it.


----------



## poida

happyman64 said:


> Just the fact that you can laugh/joke is a good sign.
> 
> Now think of some things you use to like doing and start doing them again.
> 
> Show your wife that you are moving on without her.
> 
> Then watch her reaction.
> 
> She might surprise you and not want to be left behind. Or she might move on herself.
> 
> Either way you will be improving your situation.
> 
> The key is doing all these improvements for you.
> HM
> 
> PS
> Tell her to take the dog with her. You will be too busy to take care of it.


Oh don't worry, I have been very busy and I'm having a great time, which of course will continue. I am busy most nights and all weekend every weekend. I just go back from 3 days away and have booked a 12 day holiday with mates.

I joined the gym some time back and have been enjoying that plus I play other sport once a week. I also have my regular sport on Sundays and love that. Lots of close mates there that have also been through a breakup or are currently experiencing issues. I am now close with a lot of them which is very rewarding. I also visit my parents now.

She has definitely noticed and after enacting the 180 (properly) there was a near instant response. She definitely does not want to be left behind. She now appears to be fairly desperate to get me back.

She has said that she has noticed that I seem really happy, and that I am moving on, and doing lots of things I didn't do before.

I am selling the houses so I can make plans for the future.

My challenge now is to remain focussed on myself and moving forward. I need to trust in the fact that if she wants to make it work, she will run after me.

She can't take the dog to this house, and it is nearly impossible to find a share house that allows dogs where we live. I'm happy to look after him anyway. He is good company in this difficult time and makes me smile. We have a dog sitter just down the road if needed.


----------



## illwill

poida said:


> Yeah, I agree. It would mess me up.
> 
> After 4 months you think porn is a new idea to me! Waahaahaa!


That was funny.


----------



## illwill

poida said:


> Oh don't worry, I have been very busy and I'm having a great time, which of course will continue. I am busy most nights and all weekend every weekend. I just go back from 3 days away and have booked a 12 day holiday with mates.
> 
> I joined the gym some time back and have been enjoying that plus I play other sport once a week. I also have my regular sport on Sundays and love that. Lots of close mates there that have also been through a breakup or are currently experiencing issues. I am now close with a lot of them which is very rewarding. I also visit my parents now.
> 
> She has definitely noticed and after enacting the 180 (properly) there was a near instant response. She definitely does not want to be left behind. She now appears to be fairly desperate to get me back.
> 
> She has said that she has noticed that I seem really happy, and that I am moving on, and doing lots of things I didn't do before.
> 
> I am selling the houses so I can make plans for the future.
> 
> My challenge now is to remain focussed on myself and moving forward. I need to trust in the fact that if she wants to make it work, she will run after me.
> 
> She can't take the dog to this house, and it is nearly impossible to find a share house that allows dogs where we live. I'm happy to look after him anyway. He is good company in this difficult time and makes me smile. We have a dog sitter just down the road if needed.


Actually, you sound like you are doing alright.


----------



## poida

Thanks. I have worked hard at it. Probably the hardest I have ever worked.
Probably why I take criticism so badly.


----------



## poida

I just noticed my first post here was on the 28th January. 
Here I am being all impatient about not making more progress.
Only 8 days have passed from when she was ignoring and cheating on me to the current situation where she is begging and chasing me.
Hmm. I should be more patient.
You guys have been awesome.


----------



## illwill

Keep that perspective.


----------



## BobSimmons

poida said:


> I just noticed my first post here was on the 28th January.
> Here I am being all impatient about not making more progress.
> Only 8 days have passed from when she was ignoring and cheating on me to the current situation where *she is begging and chasing me.*
> Hmm. I should be more patient.
> You guys have been awesome.


Yeah that has nothing to do with you, you really think 8 days is enough for someone to dramatically fix themselves and find their feelings again? There has been no change on her part, she's still the same person, fact is you're sort of a challenge again but make no mistake if YOU as a person hasn't really changed or moved on, the old habits will likely reappear and guess what happens?

After all this chasing, has she talked about the affair, why she did it, is she sorry? So really what has changed?


----------



## poida

No, I don't think 8 days is enough. But it's nice to see that the 180 has brought about change (yeah, I know, it's meant to be about me, not her yada yada).
I'm a big believer in the expression "don't believe anything they say and 50% of what they do"
We haven't go much into the difficult stuff yet, but she has at least booked MC to begin the process. Communication is an issue.
So, there is a long road ahead and she may not realise how hard it is going to be.

Based on the comments that keep coming my way, it would appear that I am yet to fully release her from my heart, and that is something I need to do to be able to go through the process of letting her back in. I don't know how to do that yet, or what that even means, but I guess if I give it time and focus on myself, that is all I can do to find that place.

I think I will need to say that I don't want to see her until we go to counselling as it is messing with my head. 

Thanks for the warning.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Based on the comments that keep coming my way, it would appear that I am yet to fully release her from my heart, and that is something I need to do to be able to go through the process of letting her back in. I don't know how to do that yet, or what that even means, but I guess if I give it time and focus on myself, that is all I can do to find that place.


You weren't born knowing her. You aren't connected biologically. You won't die together. The only thing tying you together is desire. Which is capable of being controlled by your brain.

Use your brain for this period. If something isn't logical, isn't beneficial, for now, don't do it.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> NO, she is not banging the OM. I would find out. And if she is (say by going to his place), I will eventually find out


How is that, exactly?


----------



## bfree

poida said:


> No, I don't think 8 days is enough. But it's nice to see that the 180 has brought about change (yeah, I know, it's meant to be about me, not her yada yada).
> I'm a big believer in the expression "don't believe anything they say and 50% of what they do"
> We haven't go much into the difficult stuff yet, but she has at least booked MC to begin the process. Communication is an issue.
> So, there is a long road ahead and she may not realise how hard it is going to be.
> 
> Based on the comments that keep coming my way, it would appear that* I am yet to fully release her from my heart, and that is something I need to do to be able to go through the process of letting her back in.* I don't know how to do that yet, or what that even means, but I guess if I give it time and focus on myself, that is all I can do to find that place.
> 
> I think I will need to say that I don't want to see her until we go to counselling as it is messing with my head.
> 
> Thanks for the warning.


This statement is key. The old marriage is dead. If you try to resurrect it all you'll have is a shell of a marriage forever living on life support. You need to create a new marriage and that can only be done by releasing her and allowing things to be rebuilt...if they can. Only then will you have a relationship that can stand the test of time.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> How is that, exactly?


Yeah, I was thinking about this last night. 
I was kidding myself. There is no way to be sure. In fact there is no way I can ever be sure. More the point, there is no point trying to control another person.
All I can do is build a new relationship with trust and trust that he other person wont see other people.


----------



## poida

bfree said:


> This statement is key. The old marriage is dead. If you try to resurrect it all you'll have is a shell of a marriage forever living on life support. You need to create a new marriage and that can only be done by releasing her and allowing things to be rebuilt...if they can. Only then will you have a relationship that can stand the test of time.


Thanks. I like that view. It has helped a lot. I was really battling this morning with HOW I was ever going to be able to get away from the feelings I still have for her.

I need to realise that the feelings I have for her now are remnants from a relationship that is dead and finished. It is just nostalgia and serves no purpose in my current situation.


----------



## poida

She just called and asked to stay over Saturday.
I said you can come by and get what stuff you need and leave but I don't want you to stay the night.
Finally I am thinking of my own emotions and well-being.


----------



## BobSimmons

turnera said:


> You weren't born knowing her. You aren't connected biologically. You won't die together. The only thing tying you together is desire. Which is capable of being controlled by your brain.
> 
> Use your brain for this period. If something isn't logical, isn't beneficial, for now, don't do it.


I do love this. This concept of soul mate, the one, I'll never find another and other hokum. The fact you randomly meet someone, spend some time and suddenly assume to know all their thoughts is absolute nonsense.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Over her cheating but now she "needs space"*



BobSimmons said:


> I do love this. This concept of soul mate, the one, I'll never find another and other hokum. The fact you randomly meet someone, spend some time and suddenly assume to know all their thoughts is absolute nonsense.


"Soul Mates" The greatest self delusion/pickup line combination ever devised by the human race.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> She just called and asked to stay over Saturday.
> I said you can come by and get what stuff you need and leave but I don't want you to stay the night.
> Finally I am thinking of my own emotions and well-being.


Great!

Now STICK to it.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Great!
> 
> Now STICK to it.


Turnera - Amazingly, I think I am "there" and it feels great.

I have decided/managed to bundle any emotional feelings I have about my wife with the past relationship that is done and dusted. Any time I feel lonely or choked up, I just remember what she has done to me and it is easy to associate those difficult feelings with the relationship that I no longer want.

A relationship with my wife is no longer something I need and I'm questioning if a new relationship with this woman is something I want. I have the choice of any woman in the world. is this the one I would willingly start a relationship with? That I don't know.

She asked to come by tonight after her personal counselling and I said, that I would feel more comfortable if she didn't and that I would prefer to meet her at the counselling appointment on Monday.

A relationship is indeed a want and not a need. It is not something we need to survive. It is not essential to be happy. It is simply a desire.

Without TAM, I would still be lost in the fog. Thanks all.


----------



## poida

So she came around yesterday and we spoke about what was going on. I was cool and rational and explained it could go either way and that I am approaching the situation that way so I can consider my future without emotional sway.
Just before she left she ran to me and well, we sort of ended up kissing very passionately and.... when it is all about to get out of control she says we shouldn't until we have a better relationship.

She leaves and I feel like a complete wh*re. I realise that her not wearing a bra wasn't an accident. Have I been played? Is it possible that she is just looking for ANY way to get my attention? Has the balance of power has shifted? I'm ashamed of myself. 

We start our first couples counselling session tonight and I feel like I'm on the back foot. Sigh! 

Perhaps I'm over thinking it.


----------



## turnera

Women NEVER go without a bra unless it's on purpose.


----------



## turnera

What country are you in?


----------



## poida

Aus. Why?


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> Just before she left she ran to me and well, we sort of ended up kissing very passionately and.... when it is all about to get out of control she says we shouldn't until we have a better relationship.
> 
> She leaves and I feel like a complete wh*re. I realise that her not wearing a bra wasn't an accident. Have I been played? Is it possible that she is just looking for ANY way to get my attention? Has the balance of power has shifted? I'm ashamed of myself.
> 
> We start our first couples counselling session tonight and I feel like I'm on the back foot. Sigh!
> 
> Perhaps I'm over thinking it.


Sorry, but that was *total fail*. She played you big time. The whole kissing was to see if she still got you wrapped around her finger and you proved that you are.

She was probably smiling the whole way after she left. She knows that you are Plan B and that you are weak. All she has to do is go bra-less and give you a kiss and ALL your resolve melts. To her, you are *easily manipulated*.

Don't fall for it again.


----------



## BobSimmons

we shouldn't until we have a better relationship..again what has she done to change? She's still not in the house, for all you're posturing and bravado the second she offered you some tail you caved in, and trust me you would have gone all the way.

That my friend was a test. And you failed.

You played hard to get, you might have piqued her interest just a bit but when she offered it on a plate, all that brave talk and resolve you pretended to show her just dissolved. When she got her answer of course she pulled away and gave you the excuse.

Nothing has changed.


----------



## poida

BobSimmons said:


> we shouldn't until we have a better relationship..again what has she done to change? She's still not in the house, for all you're posturing and bravado the second she offered you some tail you caved in, and trust me you would have gone all the way.
> 
> That my friend was a test. And you failed.
> 
> You played hard to get, you might have piqued her interest just a bit but when she offered it on a plate, all that brave talk and resolve you pretended to show her just dissolved. When she got her answer of course she pulled away and gave you the excuse.
> 
> Nothing has changed.


You are 100% right Bob.

It was a test, I lost the test this time and I kick myself for it.

All is not lost though because all of the work I have done so far has allowed me to set very clear requirements and goals for any reconciliation to take place.

She might think she has the balance of power now but I think she will get a rude shock once we start getting into the difficult stuff at our first counselling session tonight.

The fact she had to resort to showing a bit of tail proves she hasn't got the guts to deal with the difficult issues.

This is going to be much more difficult for her than she expects.

She even said she didn't want to sell the house yesterday. I stood there astounded at how far she is from realising just how irrelevant that is at the moment.

Truly amazing how blind she is to the pain she has caused.


----------



## illwill

Dude, stop all contact, uless its about kids. And you can text about that.


It really should not be this hard.


----------



## illwill

poida said:


> You are 100% right Bob.
> 
> It was a test, I lost the test this time and I kick myself for it.
> 
> All is not lost though because all of the work I have done so far has allowed me to set very clear requirements and goals for any reconciliation to take place.
> 
> She might think she has the balance of power now but I think she will get a rude shock once we start getting into the difficult stuff at our first counselling session tonight.
> 
> The fact she had to resort to showing a bit of tail proves she hasn't got the guts to deal with the difficult issues.
> 
> This is going to be much more difficult for her than she expects.
> 
> She even said she didn't want to sell the house yesterday. I stood there astounded at how far she is from realising just how irrelevant that is at the moment.
> 
> Truly amazing how blind she is to the pain she has caused.


She does not know the damage, because you are not holding her to face her cruelness.


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> Dude, stop all contact, uless its about kids. And you can text about that.
> 
> 
> It really should not be this hard.


Even MC?


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> Even MC?


MC is completely useless when in the midst of an affair. MC is for those couples trying to repair their marriage. Your WW has to be truly remorseful to have any benefit from MC.

MC is for her to continue to manipulate you. Look at her actions just now. She manipulated you sexually to see if you were still on her hook. Using MC as excuse to improve communication when she has decided to D regardless? No, its to ensure that you are her back up plan.


----------



## poida

lordmayhem said:


> MC is completely useless when in the midst of an affair. MC is for those couples trying to repair their marriage. Your WW has to be truly remorseful to have any benefit from MC.
> 
> MC is for her to continue to manipulate you. Look at her actions just now. She manipulated you sexually to see if you were still on her hook. Using MC as excuse to improve communication when she has decided to D regardless? No, its to ensure that you are her back up plan.


Well, she swears the affair has been over for a month and there has been no contact so I would have to give it the benefit of the doubt at the very moment.

I intend to use the MC as an avenue to talk about the affair and why things like passwords, sms chains etc have not been handed over. If nothing comes of that, then you are probably right.


----------



## illwill

The MC is a setup.


----------



## happyman64

Poida

If anything, last night shows you just out of touch with your situation your wife is.

Go to MC.

Rip off the bandaid and jump into the issues.

When your wife speaks just sit back and listen.

Really listen.

Reserve judgement on your marriage for a day or two.

Good Luck

HM


----------



## bfree

Poida, I truly hope your wife is telling you the truth about the affair being over, I truly hope that she is serious about improving your relationship regardless of the outcome, I truly hope MC has a positive effect. But you need to look at your wife critically. You need to develop that small sense of disbelief regarding everything she says and most of what she does. You need to be able to judge her not in the aftermath but in the moment. Use this MC session to determine not just where she is at but where you're at. And don't let her manipulate the situation or the therapist. Hold your ground, stick to your boundaries like they are a lifeline as you are dangling off a cliff. Study her and note your immediate reaction. When you start to see everything play out in front of you in real time you will be more able to think logically and critically.


----------



## happyman64

bfree said:


> Poida, I truly hope your wife is telling you the truth about the affair being over, I truly hope that she is serious about improving your relationship regardless of the outcome, I truly hope MC has a positive effect. But you need to look at your wife critically. You need to develop that small sense of disbelief regarding everything she says and most of what she does. You need to be able to judge her not in the aftermath but in the moment. Use this MC session to determine not just where she is at but where you're at. And don't let her manipulate the situation or the therapist. Hold your ground, stick to your boundaries like they are a lifeline as you are dangling off a cliff. Study her and note your immediate reaction. When you start to see everything play out in front of you in real time you will be more able to think logically and critically.


Well said BFree!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

poida said:


> Well, she swears the affair has been over for a month and there has been no contact so I would have to give it the benefit of the doubt at the very moment.
> 
> I intend to use the MC as an avenue to talk about the affair and why things like passwords, sms chains etc have not been handed over. If nothing comes of that, then you are probably right.


Over for a whole month, huh?

Does she think she deserves some kind of a medal? That you should be "over it"? already?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

When your wife or the mc starts blameshifting or anyhthing else that smells fishy, particularly not being transparent with passwords, phone, emails and texts, tell them both you have an experienced adviser telling you that can't work and there is no point in discussing anything further until she stops the affair and starts behaving honestly.

Give no clue where you are getting advice from.

Have you read MMSLP yet?


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Aus. Why?


Just wondered about the time change.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Well, she swears the affair has been over for a month and there has been no contact so I would have to give it the benefit of the doubt at the very moment.
> 
> I intend to use the MC as an avenue to talk about the affair and why things like passwords, sms chains etc have not been handed over. If nothing comes of that, then you are probably right.


I still don't understand its purpose. The best I can come up with is you aren't strong enough to just walk away so you think a MC will stand in for you and get her to cower and sob and beg forgiveness, because in a non-alpha male, getting the woman to stroke his ego that way is more important than just doing what matters - walking away and needing no further contact because he knows he's worth more than that.


----------



## turnera

If nothing else, REFUSE to discuss ANYTHING but the affair at this session. Do NOT allow her to turn the discussion over to how horrible you are, how you drove her to do it, blah blah blah. And she WILL.

If she does this, if the MC allows it, get up and walk out.


----------



## poida

We went to the MC. A lot has happened and I feel like I can no longer do the process justice with a few words on a forum.
In any case, we have started the process and a lot of the right things are being done, shown and said. 
More productive was the long talk after MC. I was able to keep the conversation on topic about the EA and everything related to it. She responded and was willing to stay on the topic to discuss very specific aspects of the EA. The first discussion was long and productive but as I would expect on the first round, some things may have been glossed over. 
I made it crystal clear today that I felt there were things that she glossed over and that she will have to dig a lot deeper than that if we are to have another discussion.
I have asked her not to contact me until the next MC session. I will continue being happy living by myself and thinking about what I want from my future until then.
I think we both want the same thing but I am still realistic about the current situation and are prepared for any outcome.
I have made it clear that I'm not yet sure if I can ever trust her, or whether I feel she will ever genuinely care about me (or the relationship) enough to prevent something like this happening again.

I don't consider MC alone to be a solution at this stage, but in our situation, I think it at least proved to be value in that it prompted a discussion on the issue. For some people I can see how it could be a "setup" as ILLWILL suggests.


----------



## poida

I have to admit I'm starting to question the validity of critical comment within this forum for the next stage of my life. It think it was very helpful up to now, prompting me to action, forcing me to look after my needs, and making me question what I want from my future. I also agree with a lot of the fairly direct advice given about moving on, being myself and applying the 180 etc etc. It was of course invaluable.

But from here on in, words can do little justice to the process and any REAL progress made. It is all too easy to be a critic during the next stage that will most certainly include mistakes, back tracking, anxiety, doubt, anger and poor judgement. Whilst this forum has been great to me for support, I'm not sure I care anymore what other people think about MY process and MY desired outcomes for ME. Perhaps that in itself is a positive step forward for me. 

I have realised that the deeply personal aspects of reconciliation is very hard if not impossible to put into in words. Sometimes the most meaningful parts of a reconciliation are not words at all.

I also appreciate that everybody's EA experience is different, and statistics would suggest that the vast majority do not have a productive reconciliation. I'm sure that affects what people say here.

So, I am moving forward to attempt a reconciliation with my wife. My process will be at my pace, with my own goals, and to meet my needs/wants. Thanks all.

ps I thought EA was an emotional affair. Knowing it is an exit affair, I may have used it in the wrong context a few times, but essentially it means the same thing to me now.


----------



## brokeneric

poida said:


> I have to admit I'm starting to question the validity of critical comment within this forum for the next stage of my life. It think it was very helpful up to now, prompting me to action, forcing me to look after my needs, and making me question what I want from my future. I also agree with a lot of the fairly direct advice given about moving on, being myself and applying the 180 etc etc. It was of course invaluable.
> 
> But from here on in, words can do little justice to the process and any REAL progress made. It is all too easy to be a critic during the next stage that will most certainly include mistakes, back tracking, anxiety, doubt, anger and poor judgement. Whilst this forum has been great to me for support, I'm not sure I care anymore what other people think about MY process and MY desired outcomes for ME. Perhaps that in itself is a positive step forward for me.
> 
> I have realised that the deeply personal aspects of reconciliation is very hard if not impossible to put into in words. Sometimes the most meaningful parts of a reconciliation are not words at all.
> 
> I also appreciate that everybody's EA experience is different, and statistics would suggest that the vast majority do not have a productive reconciliation. I'm sure that affects what people say here.
> 
> So, I am moving forward to attempt a reconciliation with my wife. My process will be at my pace, with my own goals, and to meet my needs/wants. Thanks all.
> 
> ps I thought EA was an emotional affair. Knowing it is an exit affair, I may have used it in the wrong context a few times, but essentially it means the same thing to me now.


Take care bro. But keep in touch. We are here for you.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> But from here on in, words can do little justice to the process and any REAL progress made. It is all too easy to be a critic during the next stage that will most certainly include mistakes, back tracking, anxiety, doubt, anger and poor judgement. Whilst this forum has been great to me for support, I'm not sure I care anymore what other people think about MY process and MY desired outcomes for ME. Perhaps that in itself is a positive step forward for me.


poida, there is ONE thing you should take away from this 'process' here - we know when waywards are lying. Maybe yours has learned. I don't know. But if you continue to post what she says, we WILL be able to sniff out any inconsistencies based on years, decades, of experience. And wouldn't you rather get that information now as opposed to figuring it out 10 years from now after a false reconciliation?

If you want people to stop being rude, just say so. Or ignore them. Or report them. But to leave just because you're tired of hearing how awful your wife is, well, you're going into this possible R with blinders on. And we're trying to prevent that. Most of us DO want marriages to stay together. 

Just not when the "former" wayward lies. That's our benefit to you now.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> ps I thought EA was an emotional affair. Knowing it is an exit affair, I may have used it in the wrong context a few times, but essentially it means the same thing to me now.


EA is used here 99% of the time as an emotional affair. 

Exit affair makes no difference because you can't fix the marriage if it's an exit affair if the OM is still in the picture. So treat it like an emotional affair first, remove the OM, and THEN discuss what was supposedly wrong with the marriage that she wanted out for.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I have realised that the deeply personal aspects of reconciliation is very hard if not impossible to put into in words. Sometimes the most meaningful parts of a reconciliation are not words at all.


So you got laid.


----------



## badmemory

poida said:


> I thought EA was an emotional affair. Knowing it is an exit affair, I may have used it in the wrong context a few times, *but essentially it means the same thing to me now.*


The difference in an emotional affair and an exit affair *is* significant if you are attempting R.

If this was an exit affair, that means not only are you trying to overcome her infidelity; but also having to reconcile with knowing that you are her plan B. That will make R all the more difficult for you. 

You can trust that I know this from experience.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> So you got laid.


Hehe. Well done. 
Afterwards, I'm so pleased that I still feel completely independent, have a clear set of goals and my "bull****" radar has been unaffected. If anything, the fact we still have strong feelings for each other makes me even more wary of the truth as the possibility of reconciliation becomes a reality.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> poida, there is ONE thing you should take away from this 'process' here - we know when waywards are lying. Maybe yours has learned. I don't know. But if you continue to post what she says, we WILL be able to sniff out any inconsistencies based on years, decades, of experience. And wouldn't you rather get that information now as opposed to figuring it out 10 years from now after a false reconciliation?
> 
> If you want people to stop being rude, just say so. Or ignore them. Or report them. But to leave just because you're tired of hearing how awful your wife is, well, you're going into this possible R with blinders on. And we're trying to prevent that. Most of us DO want marriages to stay together.
> 
> Just not when the "former" wayward lies. That's our benefit to you now.


I appreciate all that, and the help received here combined with my own personal counselling has prepared me well for the next stage.

I'm not leaving, but when I read my posts, they only seem to focus on the negatives. And then when I read critical responses, I'm disappointed in myself. I think you know what I mean.

Anyway, I'll be back, it's just a phase I need to do in the most positive (yet careful) way possible for now.


----------



## poida

badmemory said:


> The difference in an emotional affair and an exit affair *is* significant if you are attempting R.
> 
> If this was an exit affair, that means not only are you trying to overcome her infidelity; but also having to reconcile with knowing that you are her plan B. That will make R all the more difficult for you.
> 
> You can trust that I know this from experience.


Right. Whilst the proof is in the pudding, I have seen and heard enough to at least give R a go having being told I am plan A. At some point, if we choose to trust the other person, all we can do is roll the dice, but be prepared to lose.


----------



## turnera

So what are your safeguards to prove that she isn't lying or still cheating?


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> So what are your safeguards to prove that she isn't lying or still cheating?


I have taken a week off from us to have a good think about exactly that. 

I have seriously considered asking her to hand over her phone so I can read the whole SMS chain with this guy. Have not yet decided the benefit/damage ratio on that yet.

Essentially, I think the way in which she proves her trust worthiness primarily needs to come from here. If the bull**** radar goes off, well then it isn't going to work is it.

I do agree that I do need safeguards and as above I'm thinking about that this week. I'm open to suggestions.


----------



## GusPolinski

poida said:


> I have taken a week off from us to have a good think about exactly that.
> 
> I have seriously considered asking her to hand over her phone so I can read the whole SMS chain with this guy. Have not yet decided the benefit/damage ratio on that yet.
> 
> Essentially, I think the way in which she proves her trust worthiness primarily needs to come from here. If the bull**** radar goes off, well then it isn't going to work is it.
> 
> I do agree that I do need safeguards and as above I'm thinking about that this week. I'm open to suggestions.


I think I posted something along these lines in this thread a while back. Essentially, she has to agree to WILLINGLY hand over passwords to EVERYTHING (phone, social media accounts, e-mail, etc.), be willing to have GPS placed in vehicle, etc. The idea here is -- as others have more elegantly stated -- "trust, but verify". If she's not willing to do these things, that's really just about all that you need to know.


----------



## Chaparral

Trusting but verifying, unfortunately, will not work if she knows how you are doing it.

If she doesn't offer tranparency, she's offering nothing. Transparency or not, a minimum is the use of vars in the car and home, and gps on her car. A var will pick up a cheap burner phone in no time, or her phone that she hasn't give you a password to.


----------



## poida

I agree completely about transparency and everything that comes with that, but VAR's and GPS's? If someone is really that untrustworthy, then I think the relationship is beyond repair. I also see it as being counter productive as the cheater will see it as a hopeless situation where you will never trust them.

I think there are much better ways of gaining trust.

Sitting down together and going through her entire SMS history to the OM to verify her story is one I am considering. Obviously you don't tell them you are going to ask until you are sitting down together. It also allows some dialogue during that session.

Any other suggestions that are less degrading than an ankle bracelet?


----------



## Nucking Futs

poida said:


> I agree completely about transparency and everything that comes with that, but VAR's and GPS's? If someone is really that untrustworthy, then I think the relationship is beyond repair. I also see it as being counter productive as the cheater will see it as a hopeless situation where you will never trust them.
> 
> I think there are much better ways of gaining trust.
> 
> Sitting down together and going through her entire SMS history to the OM to verify her story is one I am considering. Obviously you don't tell them you are going to ask until you are sitting down together. It also allows some dialogue during that session.
> 
> Any other suggestions that are less degrading than an ankle bracelet?


Two points in response: First, you don't tell them you're doing it, it has to be secret or they'll work around them. Second, this is tried and true advice that has been used many times to bust cheating and false R. Take this thread as an example.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I agree completely about transparency and everything that comes with that, but VAR's and GPS's? If someone is really that untrustworthy, then I think the relationship is beyond repair.


How much have you learned about cheaters? They are drug addicts. And just like drug addicts, the allure of that drug (OM) is STRONG. It's psychological, it's physiological. For instance, if you R but then have an argument, guess what her first instinct is going to be? To run to OM to get more of that feel-good she got from being around him, letting him stroke her ego. She will then have to RESIST that urge.

Also like drug addicts, cheaters very often TRY to leave the OM behind but fail. Several times. Many cheaters will try 5 or 6 times, but keep picking up that phone, or making that text as a feeler to see if they can still sneak that last hit; and then they're back to full-on cheating again. I've seen many threads here from cheaters explaining just this situation. "I TRIED to quit, really I did, but I just couldn't. I couldn't stop thinking about him/her, just had to see them again."

So, yeah, GPS, VAR, whatever else you need for at least the first 6 months to ensure she hasn't sneaked back to him behind your back for that one last fix (which will probably become more). For her sake just as much as your sake.


----------



## turnera

poida, you have to consider this whole R thing as something you are doing to help her. As such, just like you would do with someone with some other issue, you choose the steps that give them the best chance of achieving their goal. If her goal is to prove her trustworthiness, your goal should be picking ways to see if she IS trustworthy.

You seem to be approaching this as though well, she apologized, so she's my old girl now. No, she isn't. She's an alcoholic, a drug addict, who has stolen from you. If you can't keep that in your mind, that she basically tried to kill you with no thought for you, and that you therefore have not only the right but the obligation to look at her like a reforming criminal - at least for NOW - then SHE can't learn. SHE can't work through consequences and EARN her way back to you. If you just hand this back to her, thinking showing you the texts is enough to make up for it, two things will happen: she'll see how easy it was to get you back and she'll stop working to earn you back and the next time she's tempted she'll say oh well, he'll take me back; and you'll grow resentful that she stopped working and you'll eventually become angry, and you'll break up anyway.


----------



## Chaparral

poida said:


> I agree completely about transparency and everything that comes with that, but VAR's and GPS's? If someone is really that untrustworthy, then I think the relationship is beyond repair. I also see it as being counter productive as the cheater will see it as a hopeless situation where you will never trust them.
> 
> I think there are much better ways of gaining trust.
> 
> Sitting down together and going through her entire SMS history to the OM to verify her story is one I am considering. Obviously you don't tell them you are going to ask until you are sitting down together. It also allows some dialogue during that session.
> 
> Any other suggestions that are less degrading than an ankle bracelet?


Trust but verify. The reason for that is the very, very high percentage of wayward spouses that reconcile that simply take the affair underground. After they have been caught, they can take extraordinary measures to hide the affair. If their partner is experienced they will coach their lover. There are websites for cheaters to you know.

Even if you have full access to a cheaters phone, there are apps that can be used to text that you cannot detect.

80% of affairs go totally undetected.

Read threads here, then go to the divorce/separation sections and see how many folks are being cheated on that don't have a clue. That's why I basically, but not always steer clear of those areas.

Like people say, its way easier to divorce that reconcile.

One more thing, a cheater is an experienced, seasoned liar. Google the tell tale signs of lying and beware.


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> Trust but verify. The reason for that is the very, very high percentage of wayward spouses that reconcile that simply take the affair underground.


And they don't always even mean to take it underground. They may be really sincere with you, even give you great sex, and then run into OM and then think, well, just this once, and boom! It's on again. Only this time, they'll hide it better.


----------



## poida

This is really very depressing. These comments have knocked me completely on my arse. I thought I was making progress, but emotionally I feel like I'm back at square done. Stabbed in the heart. I'm not sure I can deal with someone who is genuinely that way. We have MC tonight and I'm not sure what I want anymore. I'm not sure I can do this.


----------



## cool12

i think you should go.
if nothing else, you'll feel better knowing you gave it your all.

and reconsider the VAR. it could provide you with the proof you need to R successfully.


----------



## turnera

{{{poida}}}

poida, here's the secret: Let go. Be ok with yourself no matter if she's in your life or not.

Once you get that, get to that place, it won't matter if she screws up or not, because you'll know you're gonna be ok anyway.

That way, you can approach the R with a clear head and heart.


----------



## turnera

And poida, there is NOTHING WRONG with telling her you need time away from her before you can do anything toward R. Some guys take months.


----------



## Chaparral

Verifying is two pronged. It will tell you if she is still lying and cheating but,,,,,,,,,it will also tell you if she is being a good and faithful wife. That will let you sleep easy.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> {{{poida}}}
> 
> poida, here's the secret: Let go. Be ok with yourself no matter if she's in your life or not.
> 
> Once you get that, get to that place, it won't matter if she screws up or not, because you'll know you're gonna be ok anyway.
> 
> That way, you can approach the R with a clear head and heart.


Actually, I'm in a good place personally, I can quite happily move on with my life alone.

Where I am finding this hard is that the onus shifts to ME to VERIFY what she is doing. By the onus shifting to ME in that respect, it requires ME to take actions. As a result it involves me personally (whether I want it to or not) and exposes me emotionally.

I guess what I'm saying this that I have succeeded in getting to a point where I am happy and can go either way, but now that I would have a vested interest in the outcome of verification, it means that the outcome becomes important.

I'm not saying this well. Basically I'm not sure I am ready to go through that process of having to care (ie take actions) about anything related to her.


----------



## Chaparral

Yes, that's the trouble with reconcilliation. You are starting a new marriage with someone you have no trust in. There is no way around it.

We have even had posters here claiming to give their all to R lying to the forum just like they were lying to their husband. One just dumped her family knowing she wasn't going to be anything more than the OM's mistress.


----------



## Nucking Futs

poida said:


> Actually, I'm in a good place personally, I can quite happily move on with my life alone.
> 
> Where I am finding this hard is that the onus shifts to ME to VERIFY what she is doing. By the onus shifting to ME in that respect, it requires ME to take actions. As a result it involves me personally (whether I want it to or not) and exposes me emotionally.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying this that I have succeeded in getting to a point where I am happy and can go either way, but now that I would have a vested interest in the outcome of verification, it means that the outcome becomes important.
> 
> *I'm not saying this well. Basically I'm not sure I am ready to go through that process of having to care (ie take actions) about anything related to her.*


You don't have to do this, you could just go ahead and divorce. It's only if you attempt R that you need to monitor.

Bottom line, you need to decide if she's worth the effort.


----------



## poida

It makes me sad. As a race, we really are hopeless when it comes to relationships. Perhaps we just aren't designed for marriage and long term relationships. It kind of makes me question the whole purpose of our higher emotional state compared to animals.


----------



## poida

Nucking Futs said:


> You don't have to do this, you could just go ahead and divorce. It's only if you attempt R that you need to monitor.
> 
> Bottom line, you need to decide if she's worth the effort.


The reality is that I have equal chance of similar relationship problems happening in a new relationship. Sometimes the grass is a just bit sh*tty on both sides of the fence.


----------



## Nucking Futs

poida said:


> The reality is that I have equal chance of similar relationship problems happening in a new relationship. Sometimes the grass is a just bit sh*tty on both sides of the fence.


This is only true if you don't learn anything from this one.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I'm not saying this well.


No, we get it. Life sucks once a cheater has ravaged your previously blindly trusting life and you now have to be the warden.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

From what you've said here about your WS, it seems to me that she is not even close to being able to give you a 100% effort for R.

She needs to see that you are ready to move on. Not just talking about it, but actively preparing for it.

The marriage was 50/50, but the cheating is ALL on her. If she does not want to do EVERYTHING to help you heal from what she's done to you AND take ALL the steps to prevent it from happening again - She's already too far gone.

I get the feeling that you're on her back burner right now, slowly simmering away in a plan B pan. She'll turn up the heat a little from time to time, maybe even give you a stir. But only when she doesn't have something else boiling on the front burners.

I know what you're thinking. Maybe if you wait just a little longer, she'll come around. I think it does the opposite. It ends up letting her ease her way out of you marriage and into her new, "exciting" life. I say, give her a big shove, so she can sink, or swim.


----------



## lordmayhem

Chaparral said:


> We have even had posters here claiming to give their all to R lying to the forum just like they were lying to their husband. One just dumped her family knowing she wasn't going to be anything more than the OM's mistress.


:iagree:

That was Allybabe_18, claiming to be remorseful,

Im trying to learn and know consequences of how I handle things.

So she lied to the forum and started up the affair with OM again, content to just be OM's sex toy. And dingerdad had DDay 3.

D-day 3!

I recommend these two threads for educational purposes about affairs. It shows exactly why you trust but verify, and that you cannot just rush into R.


----------



## BobSimmons

poida said:


> It makes me sad. As a race, we really are hopeless when it comes to relationships. Perhaps we just aren't designed for marriage and long term relationships. It kind of makes me question the whole purpose of our higher emotional state compared to animals.


Not true. Just not everybody is designed for marriage. Not everybody is compatible. That is the lottery of the whole dating game, your wife wasn't someone special, there was a time you didn't know her and randomly through life events you met. 

Because of love, emotion we hook ourselves up to a wagon even ignoring the warning signs and red flags before us. Then we marvel at betrayal or when things turn sour or go stale.

I'm afraid this is not a human race issue. This is a you issue.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> It makes me sad. As a race, we really are hopeless when it comes to relationships. Perhaps we just aren't designed for marriage and long term relationships. It kind of makes me question the whole purpose of our higher emotional state compared to animals.


That's just venting due to being traumatized by an affair. You will feel different again when you're head over heals in love in another relationship when you heal.


----------



## manfromlamancha

The Dingerdad story was hard for me to read. The cheaters won there! 30 yr old lying cheating wife got seduced by 50+ yr old wealthy powerful boss and after 3 DDays moved in with him and eventually took the 2 young kids to live with him even though she promised the BS she wouldn't - now the BS barely sees his kids. Bad ending and he refuses to post on Cheaterville. Not a good story to tell but let it serve as a warning, I guess.


----------



## turnera

Yeah. Weakness never works.

poida, are you moving forward with divorce papers and so informing her? You can always cancel it - or remarry - down the road. But without her seeing that in you, she is very unlikely to really 'get it' and learn the humility she needs to honestly want to do the right thing.

btw, what happened to you the other night, we call getting tagged. When a WW sees her BH slipping through her fingers, she pulls out the sex and 'gives' it to him to mesmerize him again and get him to say all is great and we are heading into R. Trust me, we all (women) know how to do it, to make it seem natural, honest, compassionate, that we're all into you. Just think When Harry Met Sally. Most of us would never do it, but then most of us would never cheat.

You got tagged. And now that you're away from her (I hope) and the scent of the sex has waned, your vision has cleared a bit and you're left wondering why you were SO convinced at the time that you're all she ever wanted.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Yeah. Weakness never works.
> 
> poida, are you moving forward with divorce papers and so informing her? You can always cancel it - or remarry - down the road. But without her seeing that in you, she is very unlikely to really 'get it' and learn the humility she needs to honestly want to do the right thing.
> 
> btw, what happened to you the other night, we call getting tagged. When a WW sees her BH slipping through her fingers, she pulls out the sex and 'gives' it to him to mesmerize him again and get him to say all is great and we are heading into R. Trust me, we all (women) know how to do it, to make it seem natural, honest, compassionate, that we're all into you. Just think When Harry Met Sally. Most of us would never do it, but then most of us would never cheat.
> 
> You got tagged. And now that you're away from her (I hope) and the scent of the sex has waned, your vision has cleared a bit and you're left wondering why you were SO convinced at the time that you're all she ever wanted.


Hi Guys,
We can't issue papers here for 12 months (of separation), but I issued formal separation a few weeks ago. I also proceeded immediately with sale of properties.
Property 1 is being listed on Monday.
property 2 is currently having renovations finished and will sell if MC does not see progress over the next few weeks.

The "tag" frankly was more my doing. Yes she wasn't wearing a bra (kind of normal for that dress tho) but I made the first move, and I moved it to the bedroom. She said she didn't want to at first. Once we got going though. it may well be that the WW saw it as an opportunity to get some leverage - who knows. I wanted to know we still had good sexual chemistry and a deeper connection emotionally - and we do. To me, it was something I wanted to know. And sure, I'd be lying if I didn't admit I got carried away in the moment (we are only human)after 4 months without. I'm completely fine about it all and frankly it means nothing to me from a trust or R point of view. As of today, that event means still nothing to me, and I do not yearn for the same situation at the moment. I have no intentions to re-visit.

We are currently in MC in earnest and last night was our second session. The first female counsellor was wishy washy and soft and wanted to go straight to the root causes. She took for ever to make her point. Afterwards I said it wasn't working for me, she was going off the track I wanted another counsellor.

WW found another counsellor and we went last night for 1.5 hours. This guy was good. He understood my trust issue and he latched onto it as the key issue right now. We spent the 1.5hours drilling into details about the affair. It also gave me a great opportunity to express just how little I trust her, how I was willing to walk away from the relationship and how I still don't believe anything she says. I also said that I had no idea if she was still in the EA but it wouldn't surprise me after all the lying at the start. She was speechless.

The best moment was when she got defensive about a question from the C asking whether the OM was a step out of the relationship. I responded by saying that her defensive attitude reeks of a lie and was not the whole truth. The counsellor backed me up by saying he felt the same. From there, the WW didn't have a lot more to say and you could literally hear the cogs turning. She was starting to realise that in this situation she wasn't going to be able to fool the counsellor or myself. After that we started to make some progress and then time was up. I was glad to see she told the counsellor that the session was very good and that she is glad that se was pushed, and that she needed to be. I think it was a good sign. Outside, she also said she felt it was a good session. That surprised me. Someone who basically got shot down saw what happened as a positive. I hope this means she is realising that she is just fooling herself and not making any progress by not giving the whole truth, and that the best outcome for both of us is complete honesty. Is it common for affair partners to do this at the start? Even for people to have a successful R?

Anyway, we booked out a few months worth of counselling dates.

I once again made it clear we are still separated, and that I want to live alone in our house. She wants to move back in (has been saying so reasonably regularly) but has completely accepted my position and decision.

I am continuing with the assumption that we will be breaking up and taking actions as such.

I feel good for now.

I am considering verification methods. For me, the whole GPS tracking thing is just over that line where it "just isn't worth it". Plus she is in that vicinity for sport anyway which she could easily skip if she really wanted to. I am thinking a surprise request to read her SMS messages is going to tell me all I need to know.

If my gut tells me something isn't right, I will no doubt reconsider, but for the very moment I'm happy to attend MC and ignore anything else she does.


----------



## poida

Met up last night and had dinner together at the house. 

At the moment, I'm in a place where my gut tells me that the person who cheated has not changed on a deeply personal level.
My question for the week is, does anybody feel, or have seen situations where people have genuinely changed and by doing so prevent the same thing from happening again? Is this possible?

OR, can a successful reconciliation come out of a person recognising his/her faults and taking actions out of self respect that will prevent a re-occurrence. Is this enough?

My mate isn't a cheater but has been led to the bring of cheating a few times at the pub. His approach is that he has never changed personally but he has learned to identify his weaknesses and deal with them appropriately. He says that he would NEVER go to a pub alone, or with friends who are out to hook up. He knows this will lead to temptation and likely a sexual encounter. He knows this is not through a lack of respect or love for his wife, it is just who he is. It is NOT the respect he has for his wife that prevents him from doing this, it is the integrity and respect for himself that allows him to enforce this. He says that if it was only for his wife, then the first time they had a big fight or a breakdown in communication, he would be out on the town at the click of his fingers.

What do we think?


----------



## illwill

Best display of self respect is to divorce.


----------



## turnera

The first time they fought, he'd be out screwing?

Great integrity.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> The first time they fought, he'd be out screwing?
> 
> Great integrity.


I think you have missed my point. My mate has been married for 9 years and completely faithful. They fight reasonably regularly (she really is a ***** sometimes!) He knows his weaknesses and doesn't put himself in situations where he might be tempted. I don't understand the temptation part being that strong personally, but hey, it's a whole lot better situation than doing nothing about it.

My question is;
Does a successful reconciliation have to come from a change in personality, or can it be successful with a change in actions?


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> Best display of self respect is to divorce.


I'm talking about my wife recognising HER faults and taking ACTIONS to prevent a re-occurrence. 
eg Not going out with male friends to the pub
eg Not responding to texts from ex's
eg Deleting facebook friends with connections to ex's
eg Not going out with girlfriends who are on the hunt
eg Seeing a counsellor about personal insecurities
eg Seeing a counsellor about communication issues
eg Spending time explaining her feelings to her partner and re-assure them they have made a mistake and want to make it work

And the reason for doing so is out of respect for herself (ie learning to have integrity). Because we know that anybody with integrity respects themselves.

My question was whether these step is enough to prevent re-occurrence of an EA or whether you are of the opinion that there has to be a deep PERSONALITY change.

eg Working on unresolved issues caused by her family
eg Digging into personal issues such as emotional reliance, trust issues, 
eg Exploring the personal reasons for selfishness

I ask this because I'm not really sure people can change much and if this IS required for a successful change in behaviour?


----------



## turnera

Of course it requires a change in personality.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I'm talking about my wife recognising HER faults and taking ACTIONS to prevent a re-occurrence.
> eg Not going out with male friends to the pub
> eg Not responding to texts from ex's
> eg Deleting facebook friends with connections to ex's
> eg Not going out with girlfriends who are on the hunt
> eg Seeing a counsellor about personal insecurities
> eg Seeing a counsellor about communication issues
> eg Spending time explaining her feelings to her partner and re-assure them they have made a mistake and want to make it work
> 
> And the reason for doing so is out of respect for herself (ie learning to have integrity). Because we know that anybody with integrity respects themselves.
> 
> My question was whether these step is enough to prevent re-occurrence of an EA or whether you are of the opinion that there has to be a deep PERSONALITY change.
> 
> eg Working on unresolved issues caused by her family
> eg Digging into personal issues such as emotional reliance, trust issues,
> eg Exploring the personal reasons for selfishness
> 
> I ask this because I'm not really sure people can change much and if this IS required for a successful change in behaviour?


What's missing in all this is your partner's acceptance that they have to EARN you and your allegiance. And that never happens until they see you willing to LEAVE.


----------



## illwill

poida said:


> I think you have missed my point. My mate has been married for 9 years and completely faithful. They fight reasonably regularly (she really is a ***** sometimes!) He knows his weaknesses and doesn't put himself in situations where he might be tempted. I don't understand the temptation part being that strong personally, but hey, it's a whole lot better situation than doing nothing about it.
> 
> My question is;
> Does a successful reconciliation have to come from a change in personality, or can it be successful with a change in actions?


The same thing if it is truly successful.


----------



## illwill

turnera said:


> What's missing in all this is your partner's acceptance that they have to EARN you and your allegiance. And that never happens until they see you willing to LEAVE.


Your willingness to leave forces them to regain the respect they lost, while cheating.

A person with self worth is a valuable thing to have, and are not so easy to toss away.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> What's missing in all this is your partner's acceptance that they have to EARN you and your allegiance. And that never happens until they see you willing to LEAVE.


I'm already past that guys. I'm already in a comfortable place where I can go either way. 

I have already told her a number of times that I have no problem leaving and I have backed this up in MC and by proceeding with selling our assets. She knows it and she believes it. In fact she thinks that I have already made the decision to leave.

In response, I just say "Look, I love you, but until I believe why this happened and what you plan to change to prevent this occurring in the future, I'm not sure we have a future together".

So, I was in a place of comfort, with no obligations, and NOW we are in MC, and I have an intent to try to work on the situation, I am setting boundaries for myself and trying to understand what it will take in the other person to have a successful R.

Does that help?


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> The same thing if it is truly successful.


Will, I'm not sure I agree completely.

A person does not necessarily have to change their deepest personal traits to be trustworthy.

A person can still have deep personal issues, but LEARN to manage them and be a good person as a result.

A good example is ANGER. This can be a deeply engrained problem often caused by personal trauma, but can be triggered by any number of other issues.

In changing this BEHAVIOUR, such a person can learn to MANAGE these feelings, despite the deep seeded trauma always being there.

I am trying to contemplate whether the BEHAVIOURAL reasons for cheating can be MANAGED such that they become a trustworthy spouse again.


----------



## poida

I'm reading my response and I'm still struggling to get my point across. 

I think you know what I mean though.


----------



## illwill

No i do not. The ability to manage is the method they use to change.

If there actions change because of this ability, then they have changed. Judge their actions.

Most remorseful waywards believe cheating is the worst thing they have ever done.

So, changing the mentality, is not something that can simply be adjusted without actually changing, how they see the world and how they act in it.


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> No i do not. The ability to manage is the method they use to change.
> 
> If there actions change because of this ability, then they have changed. Judge their actions.
> 
> Most remorseful waywards believe cheating is the worst thing they have ever done.
> 
> So, changing the mentality, is not something that can simply be adjusted without actually changing, how they see the world and how they act in it.


Well I guess it's lucky then that I just received a text saying she is sorry she has been so guarded and hadn't opened up to me yet about what happened. And that cheating was a stupid, thoughtless, selfish, cowardly thing to do. That she knows she broke us. That she regrets it all day every day and that she will regret it for the rest of her life. That she is sorry for what she did, sorry for causing us to fall apart, sorry she never had the courage to talk to me, rather to run away from our problems. She said she has been so scared to open up and give everything just for me say I didn't want the relationship to work. That she thought I had already decided it was over. That I was just trying to talk about it to punish her.

Well, it's a start. We will see what ACTIONS come of this, but for her it is a step forward. She has always been a person who struggles to apologise - that will have to change as well.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Well I guess it's lucky then that I just received a text saying she is sorry she has been so guarded and hadn't opened up to me yet about what happened. And that cheating was a stupid, thoughtless, selfish, cowardly thing to do. That she knows she broke us. That she regrets it all day every day and that she will regret it for the rest of her life. That she is sorry for what she did, sorry for causing us to fall apart, sorry she never had the courage to talk to me, rather to run away from our problems. She said she has been so scared to open up and give everything just for me say I didn't want the relationship to work. That she thought I had already decided it was over. That I was just trying to talk about it to punish her.
> 
> Well, it's a start. We will see what ACTIONS come of this, but for her it is a step forward. She has always been a person who struggles to apologise - that will have to change as well.


Tell her you have not decided yet but her actions will dictate your decision.
How's that.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Well I guess it's lucky then that I just received a text saying she is sorry she has been so guarded and hadn't opened up to me yet about what happened. And that cheating was a stupid, thoughtless, selfish, cowardly thing to do. That she knows she broke us. That she regrets it all day every day and that she will regret it for the rest of her life. That she is sorry for what she did, sorry for causing us to fall apart, sorry she never had the courage to talk to me, rather to run away from our problems. She said she has been so scared to open up and give everything just for me say I didn't want the relationship to work. That she thought I had already decided it was over. That I was just trying to talk about it to punish her.
> 
> Well, it's a start. We will see what ACTIONS come of this, but for her it is a step forward. She has always been a person who struggles to apologise - that will have to change as well.


Tell her you have not decided yet but her actions will dictate your decision.
How's that.


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Tell her you have not decided yet but her actions will dictate your decision.
> How's that.


Already done Tom. It has been my message for quite some time now.

I'm not sure why she hasn't got that very clear message until now. Perhaps she didn't believe me. Some sort of sick trick I was playing on her. Who knows.


----------



## Will_Kane

poida said:


> I'm reading my response and I'm still struggling to get my point across.
> 
> I think you know what I mean though.


Bottom line is she has to NOT CHEAT by any means necessary. If that means avoiding temptation, deleting facebook, blocking numbers, etc., so be it. This works when, like your friend, the cheating would be the result of a "moment of weakness" (in a bar after a fight with his wife - presumably would be a one-night stand and he would regret it in the morning). This is not the situation with your wife. It was not a "moment of weakness." It was an affair, took planning to carry out and cover up.

You list "actions." Deleting facebook, etc. My opinion is it's always good to avoid temptation. Also, if you are a cheater and you want your spouse to start trusting you again, take some actions to show them and remove the things that would cause them to doubt you.

Your friend takes "actions" to avoid temptation because he loves and respects his wife. This is at the root of not cheating again.

People can make bad choices, make mistakes, and learn from them and not repeat them. It's more difficult if they are dealing with an "addiction" type of situation. 

"Abandonment issues" strikes me as more along the lines of an "addiction" or deep-seated behavior that will be hard to break. I only looked at your first post here, and "abandonment issues" are mentioned. When I hear about "abandonment issues" from a father figure, it usually means years of therapy to overcome, and maybe never will be overcome. When I hear about "abandonment issues" from an ex-boyfriend, I think to myself, "what bvllsh1t, get real." "Abandonment issues" from an ex-boyfriend to me is just a nicer way of saying she never got over him and just settled for you. I haven't re-read any posts since the first, so if that's changed since then, I'm sorry.

Is your wife over her ex-boyfriend now or does she still feel those abandonment issues?


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Already done Tom. It has been my message for quite some time now.
> 
> I'm not sure why she hasn't got that very clear message until now. Perhaps she didn't believe me. Some sort of sick trick I was playing on her. Who knows.


Well I know from other threads it takes a yr of separation in AU.
Take your time mate.


----------



## happyman64

poida said:


> Well I guess it's lucky then that I just received a text saying she is sorry she has been so guarded and hadn't opened up to me yet about what happened. And that cheating was a stupid, thoughtless, selfish, cowardly thing to do. That she knows she broke us. That she regrets it all day every day and that she will regret it for the rest of her life. That she is sorry for what she did, sorry for causing us to fall apart, sorry she never had the courage to talk to me, rather to run away from our problems. She said she has been so scared to open up and give everything just for me say I didn't want the relationship to work. That she thought I had already decided it was over. That I was just trying to talk about it to punish her.
> 
> Well, it's a start. We will see what ACTIONS come of this, but for her it is a step forward. She has always been a person who struggles to apologise - that will have to change as well.


Poida

If my WW ever sent me a text about how sorry she was I would have answered her back something like this:

"If you are so sorry and feel so bad then get in your car and come home right now.

Be ready to be open, honest and willing to communicate about what happened regarding our marriage, the affair and your true feelings.

I am waiting....."

Her actions will speak louder than her words. And right now she just admitted she has shown you neither words nor actions.

Demand it from her.

And you will cut through this mess in half the time and better yet know where you both stand with respect to your marriage.

HM


----------



## Chaparral

One thing you mentioned was going out with frends. People in healthy relationships do not go out drinking without their spouse. Girls nights out are great if you are single, but guys are looking to get laid. 

A study in the UK showed that married women show more skin and dance more provacatively than single women while out without their husbands.............especially while ovulating.

This can be looked up on the discovery channel if interested.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Well I guess it's lucky then that I just received a text saying she is sorry she has been so guarded and hadn't opened up to me yet about what happened. And that cheating was a stupid, thoughtless, selfish, cowardly thing to do. That she knows she broke us. That she regrets it all day every day and that she will regret it for the rest of her life. That she is sorry for what she did, sorry for causing us to fall apart, sorry she never had the courage to talk to me, rather to run away from our problems. She said she has been so scared to open up and give everything just for me say I didn't want the relationship to work. That she thought I had already decided it was over. That I was just trying to talk about it to punish her.
> 
> Well, it's a start. We will see what ACTIONS come of this, but for her it is a step forward. She has always been a person who struggles to apologise - that will have to change as well.


Glad you are ignoring the words and waiting for the actions. I'll be curious to see what happens when she realizes the words don't get her back with you.


----------



## bfree

poida said:


> My question is;
> Does a successful reconciliation have to come from a change in personality, or can it be successful with a change in actions?


Before I met my wife I got drunk all the time, I got into fights a lot, I did drugs, I routinely picked up women and bedded them, I treated women like they were my personal f toy. In short, I was self destructive and a complete jerk.

I got help for my drinking and drug addiction. I stopped bedding women indiscriminately and started treating them with respect. I got back to and maintained my own code of honor.

Now that said, I am very much the same person I was but my actions have changed. I know I can still be that jerk again. I know I can get into a fight whenever I want. I know I can treat a woman with disrespect. I know I can go out, pick up a woman and have sex with her any time I want. But I don't do that because that is not the person I WANT to be. I have put boundaries in place that help me to avoid that type of behavior. I went to counseling to work on the issues that put me on that destructive path.

Did I change my personality? Some would say yes. I wouldn't because I know I have the potential to still be that person IF I CHOSE TO. I choose not to...each and ever day. This is what your wife needs to do. She needs to find out what issues IN HER allowed her to betray you. Those issues are internal and have NOTHING to do with you or the marriage. She needs to put self imposed restrictions in place to prevent her from going down that road again. And she has to convince you with actions that she has done these things so that you will feel safe being in a relationship with her again.


----------



## bfree

poida said:


> Well I guess it's lucky then that I just received a text saying she is sorry she has been so guarded and hadn't opened up to me yet about what happened. And that cheating was a stupid, thoughtless, selfish, cowardly thing to do. That she knows she broke us. That she regrets it all day every day and that she will regret it for the rest of her life. That she is sorry for what she did, sorry for causing us to fall apart, sorry she never had the courage to talk to me, rather to run away from our problems. She said she has been so scared to open up and give everything just for me say I didn't want the relationship to work. That she thought I had already decided it was over. That I was just trying to talk about it to punish her.
> 
> Well, it's a start. We will see what ACTIONS come of this, but for her it is a step forward. She has always been a person who struggles to apologise - that will have to change as well.


Step one on a long journey.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.Lao-tzu, The Way of Lao-tzu
Chinese philosopher (604 BC - 531 BC)


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## Lostinthought61

We are a funny creature, optimally we should know what is best for ourselves, that goes from our eating habits to our loving habits, and yet we spend billions of dollars a year on self-help books and programs (not to to mentions the therapist industry as well) and for what; to fix things that happened in our past or in our present. Our behaviors rightly or wrongly are indicative of our environment or/and nurture (more specifically the lack their of). We can demonstrate remorse, because we feel bad but that may not change our behavior, we can shame people into feeling bad, but again that does not automatically change their behavior, that is not to say that we can't change our behavior, it happens all the time, but the incentive to do so must come at the end of the day from within, if i feel i have something greater to lose by not changing then i will change because it is in my best interest...and holding threats over their head may not be it...the question really becomes what does your wife feel is the greater lost if she does not change her behavior. And what i am suggesting to you is that the lose of the marriage may not be it or at least not all of it. Now the only cravat to this statement is if she is suffering from mental illness of some sort, then her ability to even provide cognitive decision making may be impaired


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## Philat

poida said:


> I think you have missed my point. My mate has been married for 9 years and completely faithful. They fight reasonably regularly (she really is a ***** sometimes!) He knows his weaknesses and doesn't put himself in situations where he might be tempted. I don't understand the temptation part being that strong personally, but hey, it's a whole lot better situation than doing nothing about it.
> 
> My question is;
> Does a successful reconciliation have to come from a change in personality, or can it be successful with a change in actions?


A change in self-awareness, perhaps, leading to a change in behavior (i.e., actions). I wouldn't say that personality is at the root of every act of infidelity (for serial cheaters, maybe). I would not say that Mrs John Adams or Tears, for example, had "cheating personalities." But things happened that they did not exercise control over. With greater awareness of the impulses that drove them to their actions (and of the consequences of these actions) the chances of repeat offenses are slim to none, I would say. Don't know where your WS stands, poida, but perhaps the MC can lead to this change in self-awareness.


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## cool12

poida said:


> eg Not going out with male friends to the pub
> eg Not responding to texts from ex's
> eg Deleting facebook friends with connections to ex's
> eg Not going out with girlfriends who are on the hunt
> eg Seeing a counsellor about personal insecurities
> eg Seeing a counsellor about communication issues
> eg Spending time explaining her feelings to her partner and re-assure them they have made a mistake and want to make it work
> 
> eg Working on unresolved issues caused by her family
> eg Digging into personal issues such as emotional reliance, trust issues,
> eg Exploring the personal reasons for selfishness


has your WW done all of these?
if so, i'd say she's definitely showing some remorse and willingness to change. if not, her words are only that, words. except they are coming out of the mouth of a liar.


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## LongWalk

Somewhere you mentioned that your wife is into some sport and that it might provide her with an opportunity to meet the OM. Usually on TAM people recommend ending the freedom of sports, Facebook, GNO, etc. as a measure to make R possible. I think you want her to exercise self restraint to not seek OM words in her ear and other mind movie horrors.

What sport does she play? Is it a team sport? What does she think about cheaters? Does the respect of her teammates and/or club members mean a great deal to her?

If that identity and its integrity are important to her, how are you positioned versus OM? If she has this part of self validation closer to the OM then you are in deeper trouble. In other words, does she see losing you as just losing part of her life while other aspects remain intact? Does she feel that she could come undone in general? That would give her more motivation to change herself if she thought she was coming unwound.

Several posters suggest that WW actually undergo further personality change after D and not in a positive direction.


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## poida

happyman64 said:


> Poida
> 
> If my WW ever sent me a text about how sorry she was I would have answered her back something like this:
> 
> "If you are so sorry and feel so bad then get in your car and come home right now.
> 
> Be ready to be open, honest and willing to communicate about what happened regarding our marriage, the affair and your true feelings.
> 
> I am waiting....."
> 
> Her actions will speak louder than her words. And right now she just admitted she has shown you neither words nor actions.
> 
> Demand it from her.
> 
> And you will cut through this mess in half the time and better yet know where you both stand with respect to your marriage.
> 
> HM


She didn't leave, I told her to leave because I didn't want her in the house, that I wanted a separation to take some time apart, to really find who I was, what I wanted in life and whether I wanted her in it.

She did as I requested.

I'm not ready to have her back yet. I want to see some more real progress and action first. We have only just made the very first step.


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## poida

bfree said:


> Before I met my wife I got drunk all the time, I got into fights a lot, I did drugs, I routinely picked up women and bedded them, I treated women like they were my personal f toy. In short, I was self destructive and a complete jerk.
> 
> I got help for my drinking and drug addiction. I stopped bedding women indiscriminately and started treating them with respect. I got back to and maintained my own code of honor.
> 
> Now that said, I am very much the same person I was but my actions have changed. I know I can still be that jerk again. I know I can get into a fight whenever I want. I know I can treat a woman with disrespect. I know I can go out, pick up a woman and have sex with her any time I want. But I don't do that because that is not the person I WANT to be. I have put boundaries in place that help me to avoid that type of behavior. I went to counseling to work on the issues that put me on that destructive path.
> 
> Did I change my personality? Some would say yes. I wouldn't because I know I have the potential to still be that person IF I CHOSE TO. I choose not to...each and ever day. This is what your wife needs to do. She needs to find out what issues IN HER allowed her to betray you. Those issues are internal and have NOTHING to do with you or the marriage. She needs to put self imposed restrictions in place to prevent her from going down that road again. And she has to convince you with actions that she has done these things so that you will feel safe being in a relationship with her again.


THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!! 
Finally, someone understood the crux of my question.
This is what I wanted to hear and had hoped would be possible during the healing process - that despite her deep self not changing, she can learn what her weaknesses are and work through them and put restrictions on herself.


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## poida

cool12 said:


> has your WW done all of these?
> if so, i'd say she's definitely showing some remorse and willingness to change. if not, her words are only that, words. except they are coming out of the mouth of a liar.


We have started and she is about half way through the list.

As before, I am waiting and watching her progress before allowing her back in my life.


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## poida

LongWalk said:


> Somewhere you mentioned that your wife is into some sport and that it might provide her with an opportunity to meet the OM. Usually on TAM people recommend ending the freedom of sports, Facebook, GNO, etc. as a measure to make R possible. I think you want her to exercise self restraint to not seek OM words in her ear and other mind movie horrors.
> 
> What sport does she play? Is it a team sport? What does she think about cheaters? Does the respect of her teammates and/or club members mean a great deal to her?
> 
> If that identity and its integrity are important to her, how are you positioned versus OM? If she has this part of self validation closer to the OM then you are in deeper trouble. In other words, does she see losing you as just losing part of her life while other aspects remain intact? Does she feel that she could come undone in general? That would give her more motivation to change herself if she thought she was coming unwound.
> 
> Several posters suggest that WW actually undergo further personality change after D and not in a positive direction.


She does ballet. The main academy in the city is in that location and only that location. She has been going for 9 months which is supposedly before this all started.

She describes the OM as immature, selfish, overweight, the bad boy. Someone who only cares for themselves, but someone who in her early years she was attracted to in the "bad boy" role. Friends of mine know him and have verified this and furthermore that he is a true "player" and always has been.

To put what has happened very simply, we had a communication/emotional breakdown in our relationship. My reaction was depression, hers was an affair as a result of a complete inability to talk about her issues within the relationship. This is why it came as a surprise to me - she simply has never had the communication skills to deal with the hard stuff and runs away from them instead. Her family has always buried issues deep down and/or ran away from them so I'm sure this is deeply engrained.

On the flip side, I bottle things up and go into depression. So, a fantastic combo as you can see.

I suppose the only positive that I can see in this is that the EA stemmed from a lack of communication skills - something we can both learn.


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## weightlifter

Interesting.

Dont laugh at male cheerleaders or ballet dancers.

I knew a male cheerleader who had sooooo much sex... In addition he worked it somehow the home games he showered with the female cheerleaders. NO I dont know how this is 20+ years ago.


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## poida

weightlifter said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Dont laugh at male cheerleaders or ballet dancers.
> 
> I knew a male cheerleader who had sooooo much sex... In addition he worked it somehow the home games he showered with the female cheerleaders. NO I dont know how this is 20+ years ago.


??? Random.......

MC tonight. Very nervous. Have a million questions and not sure how we will ever get through them. Not sure where to start.

I think perhaps I need to dig back up the "how did the EA end?" as this hasn't even really been covered.

I hate this sh*t.


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## poida

MC update......
I think the WW didn't realise how serious an issue the EA was. 
Her total inability to deal with difficult issues has forced her to convince herself into justifying the EA with the marital problems. That the EA was just a result of our issues.
Fortunately, the MC tore her to shreds over this approach and essentially pulled her up every time she got defensive.
By the end, the WW was completely silent and sobbing quietly.
I think the message is sinking in.
Obviously, the WW's approach to this so far is of great concern to me, but she still seems adamant that she wants to work through these problems, and seems to be taking critical comment on the shin and starting to accept full responsibility for the EA.
Let me just say that everybody is different, and before you comment, please understand that she has always been this way. Until the EA, she has been a very caring, giving and selfless person. I do not see this as being a selfish issue, but one of simple inability to actually deal with problems. Her normal approach is to run away from problems or bury them. Until recently (1-2 years), our marriage simply didn't have problems (I now consider that fact to be amazing) and so nothing came of it. When that happened, she lacked the ability to deal with them, and more importantly, help me realise the seriousness of the problem for her. I was very depressed and a one liner saying she wanted to go to counselling simply wasn't going to get the job done. She says she told me a thousand times she wasn't happy, but her defensive tone when she says this proves otherwise and the MC picked up on this. 
So, I see there being a possibility of R, but to me, it rests entirely on the WW's ability to completely change the way she deals with issues and whether she choses to accept responsibility for her inabilities. The ball is very much in her court and I don't see this as a quick fix for her personally.


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## turnera

Sounds good. As long as she keeps going to MC. Odds are fair that she will find a reason not to go back. I would use that as your guideline.


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## poida

turnera said:


> Sounds good. As long as she keeps going to MC. Odds are fair that she will find a reason not to go back. I would use that as your guideline.


We will see.

She is doing a lot of personal counselling so as long as she is working on the right issues, that is a positive sign. Her personal counselling is probably more important than our MC right now and it is time she learned to deal with problems rather than run away from them.

She seems still adamant about continuing the MC but I'll keep monitoring that sentiment. 

In the mean time, we are still living apart and I am just focussing on myself, staying happy, staying fit and working on my career. Making sure I'm happy and ready to walk away from this if it isn't working.


----------



## bfree

poida said:


> We will see.
> 
> She is doing a lot of personal counselling so as long as she is working on the right issues, that is a positive sign. Her personal counselling is probably more important than our MC right now and it is time she learned to deal with problems rather than run away from them.
> 
> She seems still adamant about continuing the MC but I'll keep monitoring that sentiment.
> 
> In the mean time, we are still living apart and I am just focussing on myself, staying happy, staying fit and working on my career. Making sure I'm happy and ready to walk away from this if it isn't working.


It sometimes takes some WS time to process the pain they have inflicted and they can remain in denial for quite a while. It may indeed be possible to R with your wife. But remember that this is all YOUR choice. You can at any time decide that you've waited long enough or that you've decided to move on regardless of how serious your wife becomes in dealing with her issues. You are in the driver's seat.


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## poida

bfree said:


> It sometimes takes some WS time to process the pain they have inflicted and they can remain in denial for quite a while. It may indeed be possible to R with your wife. But remember that this is all YOUR choice. You can at any time decide that you've waited long enough or that you've decided to move on regardless of how serious your wife becomes in dealing with her issues. You are in the driver's seat.


That's definitely how I feel.

As critical as this forum can be, it has allowed me to think that way.


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## poida

turnera said:


> Sounds good. As long as she keeps going to MC. Odds are fair that she will find a reason not to go back. I would use that as your guideline.


Guess what. Apparently our counsellor is no good because he was "attacking" her and we are teaming up on her. Sure, she took a good emotional beating, but it was a beat down that had to happen.

She just can't bring herself to isolate the cheating incident. She keep blaming the marriage breakdown.

I lost my cool on the weekend and said that she just didn't get it and I'm not sure if this is going to work. She goes on the attack saying how can I open up when you keep saying it's over etc etc.

I just shook my head and said she just didn't get it and that I shouldn't be the one that has to tell her how to be remorseful, how to be open and honest, to be transparent and understanding of the spouse she cheated on.

It's all the same sh*t that caused our relationship to break down in the first place.

I know she has it in her to do this properly and I know deep down she is thinking the right things but she just can't articulate them.

Fortunately a lot of her actions represent her positively and that is all that is saving her at the moment. I won't go through the list of stuff she has done for me, but it means a lot to me that she does them.

So the question is, is it unrealistic to expect a complete transformation and complete remorse when it was her inability to communicate remorse that contributed to the relationship breaking down in the first place?

Is expecting a perfect response leading me to failure?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> Guess what. Apparently our counsellor is no good because he was "attacking" her and we are teaming up on her. Sure, she took a good emotional beating, but it was a beat down that had to happen.
> 
> She just can't bring herself to isolate the cheating incident. She keep blaming the marriage breakdown.
> 
> I lost my cool on the weekend and said that she just didn't get it and I'm not sure if this is going to work. She goes on the attack saying how can I open up when you keep saying it's over etc etc.


That's because she can't yet face her own demons. It's an unconscious self protective mechanism whereby she can blame you instead of realising and confronting the depths of her own anger and rage. 




> So the question is, is it unrealistic to expect a complete transformation and complete remorse when it was her inability to communicate remorse that contributed to the relationship breaking down in the first place?
> 
> Is expecting a perfect response leading me to failure?


I don't think it's unrealistic to expect and hope for. But that transformation will not occur without a lot of therapy and an honest and direct NEED to face herself on a very deep level. That will hopefully come about by you taking a firm stand and making sure she deeply knows you are uncompromising in keeping her away from you until she has made good and visible progress in her transformation.
You do do this for her, but just as importantly you do it for yourself. Your emotional and mental well being depends on it.


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> That's because she can't yet face her own demons. It's an unconscious self protective mechanism whereby she can blame you instead of realising and confronting the depths of her own anger and rage.
> 
> I don't think it's unrealistic to expect and hope for. But that transformation will not occur without a lot of therapy and an honest and direct NEED to face herself on a very deep level. That will hopefully come about by you taking a firm stand and making sure she deeply knows you are uncompromising in keeping her away from you until she has made good and visible progress in her transformation.
> You do do this for her, but just as importantly you do it for yourself. Your emotional and mental well being depends on it.


I completely agree with all that.

Being in R, I was trying to tell her what I wanted, what she should do, what I expected from her and thinking of ways to "help" the process along, but it ALL needs to come from her.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Just be aware that her anger and rage may be so extensive and so deep that it could take a LOT of therapy to work through. 

Confronting one's own rage is a very frightening experience and it may be so terrifying for her that if you aren't available to blame, she may very well find someone else that stays around long enough to blame for all the ills of her life and she can project that anger onto. 

Hopefully, her own insightfulness will help her to see that before it gets to that point. Hopefully.

This is why you have to protect yourself, it may be a long haul. 

For both of you.


----------



## Chaparral

The important thing, as leader of your family, is to be patient. It is normal for people to be defensive. Rome wasnt built in a day. You have to realize to that you had her convinced you were done with her, true or not.


Are you keeping yourself strong and kind? Holding any anger at bay?

In any event, you did not get in this position over night and it will not be resolved overnight. You have to get your own issues under control to.

In my opinion, since the vast majority of seperations end in divorce, you need to consider bringing her home. I dont get the feeling she can do this without more help from you. Her biggest issue all along seems to be your rejection, in her mind, of her by you.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I know she has it in her to do this properly and I know deep down she is thinking the right things but she just can't articulate them.


poida, it doesn't take articulation to go back to a therapist. It takes humility.

She doesn't have it. 

NEVER take a cheater back who doesn't have humility. You will just get cheated on again.


----------



## turnera

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> That will hopefully come about by you taking a firm stand and making sure she deeply knows you are uncompromising in keeping her away from you until she has made good and visible progress in her transformation.


You ARE keeping her away from you, right? You didn't let her back in, did you?


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## turnera

Chaparral said:


> In my opinion, since the vast majority of seperations end in divorce, you need to consider bringing her home. I dont get the feeling she can do this without more help from you. Her biggest issue all along seems to be your rejection, in her mind, of her by you.


I disagree. The first thing she'll do once she's home, just like Lifescript's wife, is quit working on it.


----------



## cool12

turnera said:


> poida, it doesn't take articulation to go back to a therapist. It takes humility.
> 
> She doesn't have it.
> 
> NEVER take a cheater back who doesn't have humility. You will just get cheated on again.


i agree.
her emotional immaturity will not keep her from making this mistake again unless she learns to dig deep and find sincere remorse. if you're not seeing it, its probably not there.


----------



## poida

Chaparral said:


> The important thing, as leader of your family, is to be patient. It is normal for people to be defensive. Rome wasnt built in a day. You have to realize to that you had her convinced you were done with her, true or not.
> 
> 
> Are you keeping yourself strong and kind? Holding any anger at bay?
> 
> In any event, you did not get in this position over night and it will not be resolved overnight. You have to get your own issues under control to.
> 
> In my opinion, since the vast majority of seperations end in divorce, you need to consider bringing her home. I dont get the feeling she can do this without more help from you. Her biggest issue all along seems to be your rejection, in her mind, of her by you.


Right on Chap. I couldn't say it better (other than the moving back in comment).
I would particularly agree with your very last statement.
I went to personal counselling this morning and have realised that al lot of my stress in this situation is created by myself by being frustrated in not making quicker progress, and that this is even somewhat of a re-enactment of the mechanisms in our relationship in the past.
After a 4 week break from PC I am starting regular weekly sessions again to learn to deal with my need to fix this quickly while we are in R. My PC says that I need to stick to regular sessions to make this process a more "planned" process rather than PC being just a place to run when things go bad. 

My PC goal this week is to accept that the WW has a long road ahead, and also determine if I am prepared to set a long period of time aside (6 or 12 months) where I am "open" to improvement in the WW rather than being the person "pushing" for change.
I think my PC is wise in recognising this need and is what I am working on in the coming days.

My next question is what does "being open" entail.
- should she be allowed to visit my house?
- should she be allowed to hang out with me?
- is sex off the table completely? (Seriously, 6-12 months is a LONG time!)
- is travelling together bad?
- should we spend time together (dinner, walks, outings)?

So confusing.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> I disagree. The first thing she'll do once she's home, just like Lifescript's wife, is quit working on it.


I agree - she will stop work on it if she moves back in.
I agree - she needs to find her humility and show remorse. it is there, but it is buried under layers of damage from her early years. The combination of a mother who buries issues and a dad who literally runs away from them is pretty problematic.

I have let her back home on occasion. We often have a meal together after MC to discuss what was talked about, and I have let her stay over as it is very late by then.
But I have also slipped up. After the first sexual encounter slip, I have to admit I have let her sleep in my bed twice more. No sex those times.
I allowed this to happen because I thought we were making some serious headway in MC, but after the last session (and subsequent argument) it became clear to me that we had made very little progress and she is months from change.

She still lives elsewhere and I plan to keep it that way. Now more so than ever. 
My conundrum is that Chaparral is correct in that I'm not sure she can do this without some form of support from me.
My PC suggests this should just me being "open", but what the hell this means in a practical sense is beyond me right now. And where should the boundaries be.
Help!


----------



## Chaparral

poida said:


> Right on Chap. I couldn't say it better.
> I would particularly agree with your last statement.
> I went to personal counselling this morning and have realised that al lot of my stress in this situation is created by myself by being frustrated in not making quicker progress, and that this is even somewhat of a re-enactment of the mechanisms in our relationship in the past.
> After a 4 week break from PC I am starting weekly sessions again to learn to deal with this need to "make it work". My PC says that I need to stick to regular sessions to make this process a more "planned" process rather than PC being just a place to run when things go bad.
> 
> My PC goal this week is to accept that the WW has a long road ahead, and also determine if I am prepared to set a long period of time aside (6 or 12 months) where I am "open" to improvement in the WW rather than being the person "pushing" for change.
> I think my PC is wise in recognising this need and is what I am working on in the coming days.
> 
> My next question is what does "being open" entail.
> - should she be allowed to visit my house?
> - should she be allowed to hang out with me?
> - is sex off the table completely?
> - is travelling together bad?
> - should we share good times (dinner together)?
> 
> So confusing.


Peoples personalities are so completely different a cookie cutter approach is going to miss most people. There are strong types that anything thrown at them will roll off like water on a ducks back. Others can be broken with a word or two. Then there are most in between.

One thing I am sure of is that everyone needs encouragement and rewards for doing the right thing. A drill sergeant approach rarely works where it is my way or the high way. I just get the feeling that your wife's psyche is more of a delicate nature. Something that made her more vulnerable to the situation she found herself in. Some people cheat because they're just immoral. Some cheat because they're weak or gullible, etc.

I personally am not recommending you to reconcile, that's none of my business. I think you need to be kind, not needy, be a great husband, understanding and see where things go. If it feels right to see her, let her come over, whatever, do it. IF YOU WANT TO TRY AND RECONCILE.

Both of you have to give it a good shot knowing there are going to be humps. If she is worth it give it a shot. Do not let self doubt and fear rule you.

BTW have you read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER? It is a must for all men. BTW it isn't a sex manual, just poorly named. Apologies to Athol. 

You both would benefit from Shirley Glass' book NOT JUST FRIENDS. Both are linked to below and also available to be downloaded at amazon. TAM members have sold a ton of these books, we should get a commision


----------



## poida

Thanks Chaparral. 
Yes, whilst she is a very intelligent person and outwardly strong, she is inwardly delicate and really struggles to deal with any emotionally difficult situation. This is why she has learned to run away from problems her whole life - something she freely admits. These same characteristics mean that pretty much anything challenging that is said is taken as a criticism and the walls go up immediately.

As a person, I still consider her to be caring and you might be very surprised to hear me say that I now think her decision to allow an affair to happen wasn't caused by selfish tendencies. At first I thought selfishness was central to the affair, but I have since changed my mind. It has become clear that the sheer inability to face difficulties in our marriage was the main cause, and running away to another man for emotional support was the reaction. A terribly bad and damaging reaction, but one she probably saw as an emotional necessity none the less. I also take some comfort in realising now that she didn't ever expect me to take her back after the affair and why she has been saying that she feels like I am just punishing her (by wanting to talk about the affair) until I leave her. 

Whilst there are good and bad aspects to these characteristics, the biggest conundrum now is balancing the amount of support and understanding I provide so that she is neither pushed away, nor allowed a place of comfort in which she can stop growing. This, for me, is the next challenge, but first I need to decide whether I am willing to deal with a LONG period of time in this situation. The only way this can occur is if I find a place in myself where I can accept that there may be times where little no progress might be made while I am being "available" to her.

Some people have said to cut and run, some have said to work on it. I'm just not that sort of person that leaves a marriage where these is a chance to save it and have a good outcome at the end with the opportunity for an even higher level of intimacy. I realise that the decision to go down this road requires the balls to take a gamble, and the guts to accept that I might lose.

I think the most important thing for me now is to ensure I am happy to be working on the marriage, willing to accept the risks of failure, and dedicated to being open to R for a period of time that suits me.

Thanks


----------



## illwill

It is NOT your job to fix her. If she does not have enough motivation and humility to get the help she needs, why on earth are you waiting around?

You are a good man. That should be enough motivation for her, you do not need to be anyone's plan b.

Im not one of the "bless their hearts, they cannot stop cheating" crowd. 

She needs to at minimum put the same amount of energy into reconciliation that she did when she cheated.

Move on. And if she gets her crap together maybe give her another chance. She needs to earn it.

And do not make the mistake of thinking she was tricked into cheating. Ask yourself why cheating is acceptable to you.

And it clearly is. And you better believe she knew that when she decided to cheat.


----------



## WhiteRaven

She isn't your 4x4 truck where you can open the bonnet and see why is it stalling. She is an adult women, it's her own responsibility to work on her own issues. She reforms herself, take her back. Else replace her.


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> It is NOT your job to fix her. If she does not have enough motivation and humility to get the help she needs, why on earth are you waiting around?
> 
> You are a good man. That should be enough motivation for her, you do not need to be anyone's plan b.
> 
> Im not one of the "bless their hearts, they cannot stop cheating" crowd.
> 
> She needs to at minimum put the same amount of energy into reconciliation that she did when she cheated.
> 
> Move on. And if she gets her crap together maybe give her another chance. She needs to earn it.
> 
> And do not make the mistake of thinking she was tricked into cheating. Ask yourself why cheating is acceptable to you.
> 
> And it clearly is. And you better believe she knew that when she decided to cheat.


Your comment about cheating being acceptable to me was very hurtful. 

I do not see there being ANY excuse for cheating and I never have. Do you hear me - there is NO excuse. You cannot blame an affair on ANYTHING.


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> It is NOT your job to fix her. If she does not have enough motivation and humility to get the help she needs, why on earth are you waiting around?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I know I cannot fix her but part of R is being "open" to communication with the other person while they are also trying to R.
> 
> Any yes, the practical outcome to this is that it requires that you "wait around" because the opposite of that is "leaving". Leaving is not R.
> 
> There is a practical aspect to R mate.
> 
> What I'm learning right now is that a) there probably isn't much I can do to help her with her problems, and b) it is probably going to take quite a while.
> 
> If your message was to push me into that place, then fine.


----------



## jack.c

poida said:


> illwill said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is NOT your job to fix her. If she does not have enough motivation and humility to get the help she needs, why on earth are you waiting around?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I know I cannot fix her but part of R is being "open" to communication with the other person while they are also trying to R.
> 
> Any yes, the practical outcome to this is that it requires that you "wait around" because the opposite of that is "leaving". Leaving is not R.
> 
> There is a practical aspect to R mate.
> 
> What I'm learning right now is that a) there probably isn't much I can do to help her with her problems, and b) it is probably going to take quite a while.
> 
> If your message was to push me into that place, then fine.
> 
> 
> 
> How about c: LET HER GO AND MOVE ON WITHOUT WAITING FOR HER CRAZYNESS
Click to expand...


----------



## poida

jack.c said:


> poida said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about c: LET HER GO AND MOVE ON WITHOUT WAITING FOR HER CRAZYNESS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come on smart guy. Tell me how you MOVE ON and try to R (with an intent to work on the relationship) at the same time.
> 
> You can't - that f*cking what.
> 
> I have made it clear I am working on R right now. Read the posts.
Click to expand...


----------



## bfree

I realize that this may not have been what Jack meant but...you do need to move on. You need to move on from the person you thought you fell in love with. That person doesn't exist and never did. What does exist is this flawed frail human with a ton of problems that she'd rather run away from than confront. You are waiting for her to change but let me ask you this. Change into what? She can't change into what you thought she was because that was never her. And you don't know what she'll eventually become because only she can decide if she truly wants to change and whether she has it in her to make that effort. And they're is no guarantee that she'll change at all. This may be who she is. Someone who will run into the arms of another man at the first sign of weakness from you. Is that how you want to live? Only you can decide what is right for you but I will just say this. A scorpion will sting. A wolf will kill. Sometimes things just are what they are. You have to at least be able to accept that this might be one of those times.


----------



## jack.c

poida said:


> jack.c said:
> 
> 
> 
> Come on smart guy. Tell me how you MOVE ON and try to R (with an intent to work on the relationship) at the same time.
> 
> You can't - that f*cking what.
> 
> I have made it clear I am working on R right now. Read the posts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know that you are working on R. Good for you i guess, as long as it's something that you see possible and comming from both ways...
> But if you think about it a little more deeply, is it really that impossible to improve yourself moving on and showing that you are ready for whatever possible new situation is ther to come?
> Each one of us deals with R. its own way... i wuold do it making her understand that things are a bit different then how they have been, and showing yourself ready to move on is one of them
Click to expand...


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> after the last session (and subsequent argument) it became clear to me that we had made very little progress and she is months from change.


Yeah, you just got through saying it will take YOU a long time to get progress, why wouldn't it take HER a long time to get progress?

If you let her stay over (and I do NOT recommend it; just plan your time better), make sure it's in another bed room. She WILL use sex to draw you in, whether she means to, or not.

I agree she needs to see you supporting her, IF you decide to try (and I do NOT recommend it at this point) but it needs to be according to your IC's vision, I think. Let her guide you on this.

And above all, DO have a timeline - if you don't see real change in 6 months, I'd run. Twelve months is too long to figure out if she really wants to change, and it will drag you down into your own personal hell.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Come on smart guy. Tell me how you MOVE ON and try to R (with an intent to work on the relationship) at the same time.


poida, you are already sucked back in. 

You CAN move on and try R. In fact, you MUST move on to try R, to do it right. 

Move on means to tell yourself that you can and will walk away if you see no change in her. You absolutely, positively MUST BE ready and willing to walk away if you see her not doing the work - otherwise she will KNOW she has you no matter what and will stop working. She needs to understand that she has one chance ONLY to get this right. And she won't see that unless YOU believe it.


----------



## turnera

btw, to ME, supporting her looks like you getting on with your life and allowing her a window into it from time to time, but NOT wrapping your life up around hers. That's not good for either of you.

If supporting means being her rock, listening to her, letting her eat dinner with you guys, going on trips with her...well, what's different from before, other than she sleeps somewhere else?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER




----------



## missthelove2013

ugh Im glad after 9 pages I skipped ahead...poida I fear this is going to be a very long thread and not going to end well for you...

why did you come here to ignore all the good advice and argue...she is so blatantly manipulating you its pathetic...

you are dfetermined to go down this long and painful road, that will in all likelyhood lead to the same destination as the short road advised here by so many...I cant see how anyone but you can think this will end well for you...


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> Guess what. Apparently our counsellor is no good because he was "attacking" her and we are teaming up on her. Sure, she took a good emotional beating, but it was a beat down that had to happen.
> 
> She just can't bring herself to isolate the cheating incident. She keep blaming the marriage breakdown.
> 
> I lost my cool on the weekend and said that she just didn't get it and I'm not sure if this is going to work. She goes on the attack saying how can I open up when you keep saying it's over etc etc.
> 
> I just shook my head and said she just didn't get it and that I shouldn't be the one that has to tell her how to be remorseful, how to be open and honest, to be transparent and understanding of the spouse she cheated on.
> 
> It's all the same sh*t that caused our relationship to break down in the first place.
> 
> I know she has it in her to do this properly and I know deep down she is thinking the right things but she just can't articulate them.
> 
> Fortunately a lot of her actions represent her positively and that is all that is saving her at the moment. I won't go through the list of stuff she has done for me, but it means a lot to me that she does them.
> 
> So the question is, is it unrealistic to expect a complete transformation and complete remorse when it was her inability to communicate remorse that contributed to the relationship breaking down in the first place?
> 
> Is expecting a perfect response leading me to failure?


Simply put, she is NOT truly remorseful. She is STILL blame shifting and not owning up to the affair. Again, NOT true remorse. You have already communicated what you need, and she is not doing any of the heavy lifting for R to work.

True R depends on a truly remorseful WS. If the WS is truly remorseful, they are completely and eagerly willing to fix the marriage. That's what those of us in R have, the WS is willing to do anything to make it right. Yours is still half assing it. Again, not true remorse. Do not be willing to accept this half ass attempt.

YOU simply don't get it. The WS busts their ass to earn that shot at R. You in the meantime are the one trying to fix things, when she was the one who stepped out of the marriage and betrayed you. 

But if you want to continue your False R, then go right ahead. Some people just have to learn the hard way.


----------



## bfree

There it's a huge difference between giving reconciliation a chance and turning away from true reconciliation by rugsweeping the affair. Just make sure you always know what direction you're traveling.


----------



## LongWalk

Poida,

I believe in you. If you want to try R, go for it. Get her to write out a timeline.

In a firm but polite way you must let her feel that R is not a relationship battle ground. She has to change herself. You cannot slip back into your old dynamic.

Turnera is right that sex is problem if she believes it wins her forgiveness and your mind is fuzzy after too much fun. And this process is unconscious. But if you go this route, you must be extremely vigilant. Your BS detector must be on for yourself and her so that you don't rug sweep.


----------



## poida

Thanks everyone. You have all given good advice.
I have had a bit of a melt down over the last few days and I guess you would have seen the frustration in my messages.

It's true that I got sucked back into the emotional whirlpool that R brings. This brought anger, confusion and hopelessness.

My stance on being able to walk away still exists and that is my biggest ally.

The problem I have been trying to explain is that it is the EMOTIONAL commitment that comes with giving the WS a chance to R with me.

I was happy when I was resigned to not giving a sh*t what she did and was happy to walk away. Now that I've committed to being open to R, it brings with it an inherent interest in the outcome, resulting in stress when there is no progress. This is the emotional stress I have been battling with. I feel more lonely than when I was essentially single. I feel incredibly sad that she has been unable to be truly remorseful and even sadder that this the same person that committed to being there for me for the rest of my life.

It saddens me deeply that she is more interested in protecting her own feelings than showing remorse to the person that was supposedly the most important person in her life.

She was the one person in my life that I trusted completely, that becomes the centre of my world, that I loved deeply and she has betrayed me so completely. It shatters me that even the horror of an affair is unable to turn her away from her road to destruction.

I am devastated that I can't be the person I want to be, the person who is active in R, the person who loves his wife. I hate the fact that doing these things simply allows her to cause even more harm.

I think what hurts most is that I can't be who I am - a caring, loving and supportive husband who will be there for her in her time of need. I feel like that part of me is chained up with a gag and in a dark cell. 

Perhaps the real pain I am experiencing right now is the realisation that there is a very real possibility that the only path forward for me is the one away from her. Going against my marriage morals and leaving her feels like it would be the most painful and difficult decision I ever make.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> btw, to ME, supporting her looks like you getting on with your life and allowing her a window into it from time to time, but NOT wrapping your life up around hers. That's not good for either of you.
> 
> If supporting means being her rock, listening to her, letting her eat dinner with you guys, going on trips with her...well, what's different from before, other than she sleeps somewhere else?


Let me get this straight.

Are you saying I SHOUDLN"T listen to her, let her eat dinner with me, be her rock etc?

Isn't listening to he what R is all about? (provided it is genuine).


----------



## illwill

poida said:


> Your comment about cheating being acceptable to me was very hurtful.
> 
> I do not see there being ANY excuse for cheating and I never have. Do you hear me - there is NO excuse. You cannot blame an affair on ANYTHING.


First of all save that attitude for the person who earned it. YOUR WIFE. Not the people here trying to help you.

Of course there is no excuse for cheating. And its not your fault.

But, lets be clear: Cheating is not your dealbreaker. Cheating IS acceptable to you, or you would have simply divorced. You would have not entertained excuses.

I apologize if that hurts your feelings, but those who have no tolerance for infidelity, do not stay. You tolerate it. 

Maybe it is fear, or pity, or guilt.

Maybe its love. That can be honorable i suppose. But not if that love is not returned. And so far im not seeing it.

I will bow out. I wish you luck.


----------



## bfree

poida said:


> Let me get this straight.
> 
> Are you saying I SHOUDLN"T listen to her, let her eat dinner with me, be her rock etc?
> 
> Isn't listening to he what R is all about? (provided it is genuine).


What has she done in order to inspire you to go to such lengths for her? What actions has she taken other than go to a counselor and complain about being attacked? Aren't you the injured party here?


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Let me get this straight.
> 
> Are you saying I SHOULDN'T listen to her, let her eat dinner with me, be her rock etc?
> 
> Isn't listening to her what R is all about? (provided it is genuine).


Well, let me ask YOU first:
Has she admitted to the affair?
Has she written out details of every interaction and given it to you?
Has she admitted what she did to her family?
Has she handed over her phone to you, which no longer has any passwords on it?
Has she found a therapist, signed you both up, and started attending?
Has she offered to take a polygraph and found one and signed up for it?
Has she asked you what it will take for you to trust her again?
Has she started telling you everywhere she goes so that you can always know she isn't with some other man?

I could go on, but, well, has she?

If not, then, no, you should NOT be having dinner with her, listening to her, being her rock.

Don't fool yourself. That is part of RECONCILIATION and reconciliation doesn't happen until AFTER she has done these things. To give her the dinners and being a rock etc BEFORE she has done these things is no different than letting her move back in. SHE HAS TO DO THE HARD WORK FIRST.


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> First of all save that attitude for the person who earned it. YOUR WIFE. Not the people here trying to help you.
> 
> Of course there is no excuse for cheating. And its not your fault.
> 
> But, lets be clear: Cheating is not your dealbreaker. Cheating IS acceptable to you, or you would have simply divorced. You would have not entertained excuses.
> 
> I apologize if that hurts your feelings, but those who have no tolerance for infidelity, do not stay. You tolerate it.
> 
> Maybe it is fear, or pity, or guilt.
> 
> Maybe its love. That can be honorable i suppose. But not if that love is not returned. And so far im not seeing it.
> 
> I will bow out. I wish you luck.


OK, I see what you mean now. You don't need to bow out. It's all good, challenging conversation. Sorry about the melt down yesterday. I have been in a pretty bad place emotionally and I was mad before I even opened the web page.

I see now that you have observed that cheating isn't a DEALBREAKER for me and you are right.

I my situation, I can live with the EA event provided that certain things happen.

The emotional reason why I can live with the affair is because I do not consider the affair to be consciously malicious or selfish or with a hatred for me specifically. If it was any of these, then I would just consider her to be a selfish, moral-less ***** and divorce immediately.

The poor state of our relationship was definitely a contributor to the WW allowing an EA event to occur. In my opinion, the WW's subconscious tendency to "run away" from relationship problems exacerbated her inability to deal with our issues.

Don't get me wrong, I still consider her to be 100% responsible for the EA and any chance of R is conditional on a lot of requirements being met for me.

What I can't live with is a WW that hasn't recognised the trauma of the situation, that can't change the way she deals with relationship issues, that can't show humility and isn't actively remorseful. Unfortunately, whilst there have been shades of these traits, she has been unable to really open up and engage in these requirements. A lot of you have pointed out that this is likely to take a long time, and may never happen. I am beginning to realise this.

Deep down I know she feels terrible and wants to change so that she doesn't run away from problems. It is frustrating to me that someone who I held in such high stead now seems to completely incapable and incompetent to me.

This really is a very difficult situation.

I kind of wish I was in a more extreme or black and white situation where I would have no confusion in making a decision to either divorce immediately or be open to R.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Well, let me ask YOU first:
> Has she admitted to the affair?
> Has she written out details of every interaction and given it to you?
> Has she admitted what she did to her family?
> Has she handed over her phone to you, which no longer has any passwords on it?
> Has she found a therapist, signed you both up, and started attending?
> Has she offered to take a polygraph and found one and signed up for it?
> Has she asked you what it will take for you to trust her again?
> Has she started telling you everywhere she goes so that you can always know she isn't with some other man?
> 
> I could go on, but, well, has she?
> 
> If not, then, no, you should NOT be having dinner with her, listening to her, being her rock.
> 
> Don't fool yourself. That is part of RECONCILIATION and reconciliation doesn't happen until AFTER she has done these things. To give her the dinners and being a rock etc BEFORE she has done these things is no different than letting her move back in. SHE HAS TO DO THE HARD WORK FIRST.



Has she admitted to the affair? YES
Has she written out details of every interaction and given it to you? NO, BUT WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT
Has she admitted what she did to her family? YES, EARLY ON.
Has she handed over her phone to you, which no longer has any passwords on it? NO
Has she found a therapist, signed you both up, and started attending? YES, PC AND MC
Has she offered to take a polygraph and found one and signed up for it? NO (NOT REALLY SOMETHING DISCUSSED IN AUST.)
Has she asked you what it will take for you to trust her again?
NOT SPECIFICALLY
Has she started telling you everywhere she goes so that you can always know she isn't with some other man?
YES, WHEN I SEE HER OR TALK TO HER, BUT SHE LIVES IN ANOTHER HOUSE SO WE DON'T TALK ABOUT EVERY SINGLE MOVEMENT SHE MAKES.


----------



## turnera

Dude, you can't make a person care enough to dig that deep and face all that crap. All you can do is withhold what YOU have that she wants, to get her to care enough on her own.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Has she admitted to the affair? YES
> Has she written out details of every interaction and given it to you? NO, BUT WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT
> Has she admitted what she did to her family? YES, EARLY ON.
> Has she handed over her phone to you, which no longer has any passwords on it? NO
> Has she found a therapist, signed you both up, and started attending? YES, PC AND MC
> Has she offered to take a polygraph and found one and signed up for it? NO (NOT REALLY SOMETHING DISCUSSED IN AUST.)
> Has she asked you what it will take for you to trust her again?
> NOT SPECIFICALLY
> Has she started telling you everywhere she goes so that you can always know she isn't with some other man?
> YES, WHEN I SEE HER OR TALK TO HER, BUT SHE LIVES IN ANOTHER HOUSE SO WE DON'T TALK ABOUT EVERY SINGLE MOVEMENT SHE MAKES.


I'm confused, then. You keep talking about how she's not remorseful, how she blames you, how she doesn't understand the ramifications...this doesn't jive with what you just said.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Dude, you can't make a person care enough to dig that deep and face all that crap. All you can do is withhold what YOU have that she wants, to get her to care enough on her own.


I know. It's just my nature to put in 110% into anything I want. 

In this case, I need to do exactly the opposite to get the desired outcome. I need to be OK with doing nothing but looking after myself and have faith that if she wants it bad enough she will make it happen.

I know that yet when I contemplate not doing anything for her I feel like I am gagged, bound and sitting an a cell all alone. 

I know I need to turn this feeling into pride and self respect so that I do not have a desire to "fix" her - something that I can't do.


----------



## turnera

Then look at it this way: If you love her, you know she needs to do this hard work. And you know if you make it easy on her, she won't do it. So if you love her, you will remove yourself so she HAS to fix herself.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> I'm confused, then. You keep talking about how she's not remorseful, how she blames you, how she doesn't understand the ramifications...this doesn't jive with what you just said.


I feel that way because despite having completed a lot of what is required in R 101, everything she does is in shades of grey. It is never emphatic or completely selfless. She still finds blame other things including our relationship. She hasn't done some of the things I have asked for such as phone passwords etc. A lot of what she says is laced with self pity.

This is why my opinion of her changes from day to day. Some days I think we are going well and making progress, other days I think she is just incapable or R, other days I don't know if I believe anything she says.

What I do know is that she has never had the skills as a person that are required to reconcile in a convincing way. Getting an apology in our marriage was like getting blood from a stone. You get one eventually but it's harder than it should be.

Can you see my dilemma? 

I need her to R properly to be able to talk her back but deep down I know she may not be capable of it. Yet, I feel sure she is feeling the right things deep down, but just can't express them. As a result I sway back and forth trying to decide whether a less than perfect R is acceptable to me after an affair. Whether a less than perfect apology is acceptable to me, whether less than perfect humility and remorse is acceptable to me.

This is my internal battle.


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> Well, let me ask YOU first:
> Has she admitted to the affair?
> Has she written out details of every interaction and given it to you?
> Has she admitted what she did to her family?
> Has she handed over her phone to you, which no longer has any passwords on it?
> Has she found a therapist, signed you both up, and started attending?
> Has she offered to take a polygraph and found one and signed up for it?
> Has she asked you what it will take for you to trust her again?
> Has she started telling you everywhere she goes so that you can always know she isn't with some other man?
> 
> I could go on, but, well, has she?
> 
> If not, then, no, you should NOT be having dinner with her, listening to her, being her rock.
> 
> Don't fool yourself. That is part of RECONCILIATION and reconciliation doesn't happen until AFTER she has done these things. To give her the dinners and being a rock etc BEFORE she has done these things is no different than letting her move back in. SHE HAS TO DO THE HARD WORK FIRST.



I agree this needs to be done. However, how many waywards know that? Being ignorant of what needs to be done isn't a crime. If she is refusing to do this, that's not reconcilliation. If she doesn't have a clue to the process, that's understandable. There is no reason to believe every wayward is going to just know what to do.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Then look at it this way: If you love her, you know she needs to do this hard work. And you know if you make it easy on her, she won't do it. So if you love her, you will remove yourself so she HAS to fix herself.


That's what it boils down to doesn't it.

I will just try to focus on that and let everything else remain as background noise.


----------



## poida

Chaparral said:


> I agree this needs to be done. However, how many waywards know that? Being ignorant of what needs to be done isn't a crime. If she is refusing to do this, that's not reconcilliation. If she doesn't have a clue to the process, that's understandable. There is no reason to believe every wayward is going to just know what to do.


Sure, but if you care about someone, you will do your research and ask the person you have hurt how you can help them.

Hell, I even handed her printed copies of the e-book and other papers on this and she still says "I don't know what I can do!" in an attacking way.


----------



## lordmayhem

Chaparral said:


> I agree this needs to be done. However, how many waywards know that? Being ignorant of what needs to be done isn't a crime. If she is refusing to do this, that's not reconcilliation. If she doesn't have a clue to the process, that's understandable. There is no reason to believe every wayward is going to just know what to do.


I think he's already been communicating what needs to be done. But the problem is her attitude in the first place. Still blame shifting and not owning up to the affair. Its not a crime to be ignorant about what needs to be done, but the big thing here is that she isn't even asking him what needs to be done. Look at the former waywards here like EI and Mrs John Adams who are in R. They asked their BSs what needs to be done and are willing to do it. They were proactive. That's true remorse. My fWW was always asking me what she needed to do because she wanted to do everything she can to help me heal.


----------



## ing

Your being played dude. In the most important way of all.

She is protecting the AP and the story she told herself to enable the affair in the first place. By defending the story she is defending the AP and herself from being seen as bad.

She has two options.

1. Leave you alone to get on with your life, abandon any attempt at reconciliation and preferably you never speak to again.

2. She gets on your side. Big time. 



She is seeing you as weak and pathetic trying to work this out. She is taking advantage of the MC to whine about all the "pre-existing problems that caused her affair" 
You are sitting listening to this carp and and she is loving the attention you are paying her. 
This is different from loving you.

How to end this rubbish

*Cancel marriage counselling.* 
Do not give a reason other than you have had enough.
*End all emotional chats. *
Do not give a reason other than you have had enough.

Remain friendly but not too friendly and go on with your life.

Until she can see that she is responsible for what she has done then you have no other options.


----------



## poida

I have already questioned whether she is ready for MC and I am letting that sit for a day or so.
I have already recognised the lack of progress and plan to cut contact and communication back to "friendly" listening when she has something worth listening to.
HA ha... Just now got a message saying "Hi Poida, hope you are having a better day"
A guess a friendly but short response.


----------



## poida

Well, I did it. I said I wasn't sure about MC anymore.


----------



## poida

Wow, that worked fast. All of a sudden it's "what can I do for you".

See where this goes.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

ing said:


> Your being played dude. In the most important way of all.
> 
> She is protecting the AP and the story she told herself to enable the affair in the first place. By defending the story she is defending the AP and herself from being seen as bad.
> 
> She has two options.
> 
> 1. Leave you alone to get on with your life, abandon any attempt at reconciliation and preferably you never speak to again.
> 
> 2. She gets on your side. Big time.
> 
> 
> 
> She is seeing you as weak and pathetic trying to work this out. She is taking advantage of the MC to whine about all the "pre-existing problems that caused her affair"
> You are sitting listening to this carp and and she is loving the attention you are paying her.
> This is different from loving you.
> 
> How to end this rubbish
> 
> *Cancel marriage counselling.*
> Do not give a reason other than you have had enough.
> *End all emotional chats. *
> Do not give a reason other than you have had enough.
> 
> Remain friendly but not too friendly and go on with your life.
> 
> *Until she can see that she is responsible for what she has done then you have no other options.*


Poida, please read Ing's post.

Then read it again.


----------



## ing

I would say you had a very close relationship and she knows you really well.

As time has gone on and as you have detached she is having less and less effect your emotions. You are now exhibiting real control

This is what she is noticing and she is beginning to think that she is losing you. 

This does not mean you are close to her accepting any responsibility for her actions or really caring how much actions have hurt you. It is still all about her loss and pain.

She may never get there. Just be prepared for that. 

False R is soul destroying because to attempt it for a BS is opening oneself up to be hurt and then getting shat on from a great height. Again..


----------



## DoktorFun

ing said:


> Your being played dude. In the most important way of all.
> 
> She is protecting the AP and the story she told herself to enable the affair in the first place. By defending the story she is defending the AP and herself from being seen as bad.
> 
> She has two options.
> 
> 1. Leave you alone to get on with your life, abandon any attempt at reconciliation and preferably you never speak to again.
> 
> 2. She gets on your side. Big time.
> 
> 
> 
> She is seeing you as weak and pathetic trying to work this out. She is taking advantage of the MC to whine about all the "pre-existing problems that caused her affair"
> You are sitting listening to this carp and and she is loving the attention you are paying her.
> This is different from loving you.
> 
> How to end this rubbish
> 
> *Cancel marriage counselling.*
> Do not give a reason other than you have had enough.
> *End all emotional chats. *
> Do not give a reason other than you have had enough.
> 
> Remain friendly but not too friendly and go on with your life.
> 
> Until she can see that she is responsible for what she has done then you have no other options.



:iagree:

btw "Hi Poida, hope you are having a better day"
Good Luck! :smthumbup:


----------



## BobSimmons

poida said:


> I feel that way because despite having completed a lot of what is required in R 101, everything she does is in shades of grey. It is never emphatic or completely selfless. She still finds blame other things including our relationship. She hasn't done some of the things I have asked for such as phone passwords etc. A lot of what she says is laced with self pity.
> 
> This is why my opinion of her changes from day to day. Some days I think we are going well and making progress, other days I think she is just incapable or R, other days I don't know if I believe anything she says.
> 
> What I do know is that she has never had the skills as a person that are required to reconcile in a convincing way. Getting an apology in our marriage was like getting blood from a stone. You get one eventually but it's harder than it should be.
> 
> Can you see my dilemma?
> 
> I need her to R properly to be able to talk her back but deep down I know she may not be capable of it. Yet, I feel sure she is feeling the right things deep down, but just can't express them. As a result I sway back and forth trying to decide whether a less than perfect R is acceptable to me after an affair. Whether a less than perfect apology is acceptable to me, whether less than perfect humility and remorse is acceptable to me.
> 
> This is my internal battle.


With all due respect this is all piffle. 

She had an EA *or whatever* but is still not being completely open and honest and is still not handing over the essential tools and equipment that could enable her to continue this behavior.

It's piffle to say someone cannot be completely honest. She can, just not with you because of how she views you, she knows you will take her back, only one that is not sorry for her actions and knows if they wait it out will not feel compelled to reveal the truth.

You make a lot of excuses for her. Rationalize what she's thinking, how she is feeling. You know it all don't you? 

Here's the rub

She knows you as well. So as tough as you try to appear to her, she has some inclination of how you think and work, probably saying or thinking what you're writing above. Why would she be honest when in time you'll just accept this is who she is, someone that is enable to be open or say exactly what she feels?

You talk and fight bravely. But you are merely shadow boxing with an opponent that's not even in the ring.

She disrespected you by going outside the relationship. She needed to give you complete access and genuine remorse. You got none.You're still getting none even after all this time.

How can you be or want to be with someone that doesn't respect you?


----------



## poida

ing said:


> I would say you had a very close relationship and she knows you really well.
> 
> As time has gone on and as you have detached she is having less and less effect your emotions. You are now exhibiting real control
> 
> This is what she is noticing and she is beginning to think that she is losing you.
> 
> This does not mean you are close to her accepting any responsibility for her actions or really caring how much actions have hurt you. It is still all about her loss and pain.
> 
> She may never get there. Just be prepared for that.
> 
> False R is soul destroying because to attempt it for a BS is opening oneself up to be hurt and then getting shat on from a great height. Again..


Of course.... you are right.

My real pain over the last few days is that exact realisation - that she may never get there. And it breaks my heart to be treated like a P.O.S and also o see her waste her life like that.


----------



## poida

BobSimmons said:


> With all due respect this is all piffle.
> 
> She had an EA *or whatever* but is still not being completely open and honest and is still not handing over the essential tools and equipment that could enable her to continue this behavior.
> 
> It's piffle to say someone cannot be completely honest. She can, just not with you because of how she views you, she knows you will take her back, only one that is not sorry for her actions and knows if they wait it out will not feel compelled to reveal the truth.
> 
> You make a lot of excuses for her. Rationalize what she's thinking, how she is feeling. You know it all don't you?
> 
> Here's the rub
> 
> She knows you as well. So as tough as you try to appear to her, she has some inclination of how you think and work, probably saying or thinking what you're writing above. Why would she be honest when in time you'll just accept this is who she is, someone that is enable to be open or say exactly what she feels?
> 
> You talk and fight bravely. But you are merely shadow boxing with an opponent that's not even in the ring.
> 
> She disrespected you by going outside the relationship. She needed to give you complete access and genuine remorse. You got none.You're still getting none even after all this time.
> 
> How can you be or want to be with someone that doesn't respect you?



Boxing a shadow is a pretty good analogy. I still feel like deep down she wants to make it work, knows what to do but just can't bring herself to get in the ring. I think right now its more about being scared than that of disrespect, but ultimately, that is what it amounts to.

It's so sad.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

> She had an EA *or whatever* but is still not being completely open and honest and is still not handing over the essential tools and equipment that could enable her to continue this behavior.


 I agree. Even before she starts the long and arduous journey of self discovery, if she wants you to remain around to lean on, she MUST be completely open, accountable and prepared to bend over backwards to ensure that you know she is serious with it.

If there is any hint of her being reticent or shy of complete remorse and withholding of information, passwords etc,. then you need to walk away from her.

Her inability to face her own anger and the help she needs to do that must take second place to your own well being.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> Boxing a shadow is a pretty good analogy. I still feel like deep down she wants to make it work, knows what to do but just can't bring herself to get in the ring. I think right now its more about being scared than that of disrespect, but ultimately, that is what it amounts to.
> 
> It's so sad.



Yes it's sad, but the fear of losing you needs to be more scary than getting in the ring. If she feels that you will always be around for her to lean on then she has no reason to climb into it in the first place.


----------



## poida

Thanks all.
I think I made some emotional progress today.:smthumbup:


----------



## DoktorFun

poida said:


> Thanks all.
> I think I made some emotional progress today.:smthumbup:


Good Good! Keep going...!:smthumbup:


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> She hasn't done some of the things I have asked for such as phone passwords etc.


poida, there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER for you to have ANY SORT of reconciliation with a cheater who won't now give you her passwords and hand over her phone. Period.

There is no reason to even discuss this.

Honestly, your story is no different from 90% of all the men who come here who are SO SCARED of being alone that they pretend to be mad and strong but really just make waves while actually letting the woman call the shots.

And guess where that leaves you?

Being cheated on again. Or being cleaned out financially once she realizes you're just a wuss and won't stand up to her.

Come on, if you can't even say 'if you won't hand over your phone so I can verify NC we have nothing to discuss, you'll hear from my lawyer,' you HAVE NO RECONCILIATION. Just rug sweeping.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Well, I did it. I said I wasn't sure about MC anymore.


Oh no! Not THAT! lol

Sorry, poida, but that's still pretty weak. You're strutting around, when what you REALLY should have said is "I don't see any remorse from you; until you can stop blaming me and start truly apologizing, we have nothing to talk about," you're still rug sweeping and practically begging her to do what you want just so you can stay together. 

And she knows it.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> she wants to make it work, knows what to do but just can't bring herself to get in the ring


She could if it was something she wanted badly enough. In your case, she still believes you will cave so she doesn't HAVE to want it badly enough.

She asked you what to do. Write out a list. Let us fix it for you. Then hand it to her. Then see what she does. Include a timeline. Then you'll know.


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> It saddens me deeply that* she is more interested in protecting her own feelings than showing remorse *to the person that was supposedly the most important person in her life.


that is sad. and what's even sadder is that it doesn't appear she's FEELING remorse either! if she sincerely felt bad about her EA she wouldn't even think of saying sh!t like this gem



poida said:


> Hell, I even handed her printed copies of the e-book and other papers on this and *she still says "I don't know what I can do!" * in an attacking way.


HELLO! what she can do is start acting like an adult that made a major mistake and do every fking thing she can to make you feel loved and secure again.


----------



## turnera

poida, you know the answer.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Oh no! Not THAT! lol
> 
> Sorry, poida, but that's still pretty weak. You're strutting around, when what you REALLY should have said is "I don't see any remorse from you; until you can stop blaming me and start truly apologizing, we have nothing to talk about," you're still rug sweeping and practically begging her to do what you want just so you can stay together.
> 
> And she knows it.


I didn't write an update last night but after work I went to counselling to discuss this exact topic. After discussion with my counsellor I decided that for my own health and for any chance of progress with this woman, I needed to to say exactly what you have surmised above. In fact, almost to the word.

I went back to work and the WW called to see how I was going and how my counselling was. It was time to stop making excuses for her and just say what I needed to see.

I explained that I was stuck in an empty place, that I couldn't move on with R or MC until she showed me some true remorse, something from the heart, something meaningful. I also said I didn't feel like she had really opened up about the affair, what she was feeling and how it ended. That she had brushed over the details. That I wasn't "feeling it", a feeling genuine sense of regret and commitment to making it work. And that if I she couldn't help me through the very first stage of dealing with the affair, then I will need to take another path.

Essentially, she started with the normal rant. Said that I was attacking her. Blame shifting, defensive, saying over and over that she has already said these things, that she HAS said she was sorry, has said she knows she messed up, said that she wants to make it work. 

The most perplexing thing to me is what appears to be a deep and genuine frustration that she feels that she HAS been saying all of these things and I'm not listening. She said she feels lost with what I want from her. 

She says that she doesn't know what else to say, what else to do. That she feels like I'm just punishing her until I leave her. And that how can she ever talk to me when she never sees me anymore and isn't allowed back to the house. 

I tried to calmly re-iterate what I needed to see to move forward and she started crying, saying I don't want this to work etc etc.

SO. Right now, I firstly feel quite proud of myself for doing what is right for ME, but I also realise that she has been this way our ENTIRE marriage. This is who she is, who she has always been, and there is a very real possibility that she really DOESN'T know what to do. That she DOESN'T know how to connect with me on a deeper level. That she DOESN'T know how to be truly remorseful and apologetic. In fact I'm now sure of it.

I know some of you think this is black and white now.

It is certainly difficult. What I DO know is that I definitely cannot move forward without hearing and seeing genuine and deep remorse etc. At the same time I realise that she simply doesn't know how to do these things, and never has.

I am pleased I took a stance. I am pleased that my needs have been clearly spelt out (although I think she has just taken them as an attack and missed the message entirely).

What I want to make clear is that this is a person who has been very good to me in every other way, but carries with her this huge flaw, that is causing me angst in our marriage, and an unmovable barrier to moving forward from this position. Until the affair, she had always been a caring, loving, loyal, giving, active, attractive person. Yet, this same person carries a flaw that makes a relationship under normal circumstances difficult, and after an affair impossible. Unless something changes.

I will need to consider my options now.

I think that because she is simply unable to receive the message from me about what I need, I think perhaps your idea about writing a list is a good idea and really my last resort.

I want to be clear. My wife carries with her a massive flaw, but because she is otherwise a person I have deeply loved and respected in our marriage, I am still willing to give her one last chance. If she is capable of genuinely changing, I would consider taking her back. If she can't, then we are done. I'm sure some will criticise me for this statement, but I don't care. This is how I feel and I am taking the right steps for me and it feels right for me.

I will start a list and be honest with myself about how long I feel comfortable giving her to achieve all of the goals.

Thanks.


----------



## turnera

Oh for God's sake, stop making excuses for THIS ADULT CHEATER!

She's an adult, she's not mentally handicapped, SHE KNOWS how to fix things. 

She doesn't want to, because fixing things means SHE has to be penitent and she has to show humility.

I've said it over and over and over and over again - a cheater without humility is STILL A CHEATER.

When she finally realizes what humility looks like (OTHER people above herself), _you will know._

You will know.

You will SEE the difference, poida. PLEASE trust me - YOU WILL KNOW.

She's not anywhere near that place. Let go. Let her go. Leave her alone. Let her stew in her own juices until she finally realizes that she will have to LET GO OF HER PRIDE if she wants you back.

THAT is how you achieve reconciliation.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Oh for God's sake, stop making excuses for THIS ADULT CHEATER!
> 
> She's an adult, she's not mentally handicapped, SHE KNOWS how to fix things.
> 
> She doesn't want to, because fixing things means SHE has to be penitent and she has to show humility.
> 
> I've said it over and over and over and over again - a cheater without humility is STILL A CHEATER.
> 
> When she finally realizes what humility looks like (OTHER people above herself), _you will know._
> 
> You will know.
> 
> You will SEE the difference, poida. PLEASE trust me - YOU WILL KNOW.
> 
> She's not anywhere near that place. Let go. Let her go. Leave her alone. Let her stew in her own juices until she finally realizes that she will have to LET GO OF HER PRIDE if she wants you back.
> 
> THAT is how you achieve reconciliation.


Yeah. I know.

I assume you still think a list is worthwhile.


----------



## turnera

NO list is worthwhile until she comes to you, gets down on her knees, smothered in tears, says she CAN'T BELIEVE what she's done to you and everyone else, BEGS you to forgive her for her pride, and tells you she will spend the next few years of her life making it up to you.

THAT is reconciliation.

Have you read any other threads here of R?


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> NO list is worthwhile until she comes to you, gets down on her knees, smothered in tears, says she CAN'T BELIEVE what she's done to you and everyone else, BEGS you to forgive her for her pride, and tells you she will spend the next few years of her life making it up to you.
> 
> THAT is reconciliation.
> 
> Have you read any other threads here of R?


I've got nothing to say. I'm numb. Devastated. I'm all over the place. I hate all of this. I think I need to get away for a while.


----------



## bfree

Look poida, the problem is you are trying to fix this. But you can't fix what you didn't beak. It really is that simple. She has access to therapy correct? This is something you need to let her work out with her therapist. If you want to give her therapist some direction on what you in particular need in order to consider reconciliation with her then that is fine. But she needs to do a lot of introspection and that cannot come from you. If she simply cannot deal with the guilt of what she's done then there is nothing you can do.


----------



## bfree

poida said:


> That she feels like I'm just punishing her until I leave her. And that how can she ever talk to me when she never sees me anymore and isn't allowed back to the house.


I want you to look at this statement. Tell me what you see here? Want to know what I see? She is holding back. She is still on the defensive. She is hedging her bets. She doesn't want to open up because she is afraid that if she does you will not reconcile. She wants her old life back but is not willing to work to get it. She wants it given to her and maybe then she'll be a good wife. In short, she is trying to bargain. Until she is ready to drop her defenses and allow herself to feel genuine remorse you don't have any chance to reconcile with her.


----------



## poida

bfree said:


> I want you to look at this statement. Tell me what you see here? Want to know what I see? She is holding back. She is still on the defensive. She is hedging her bets. She doesn't want to open up because she is afraid that if she does you will not reconcile. She wants her old life back but is not willing to work to get it. She wants it given to her and maybe then she'll be a good wife. In short, she is trying to bargain. Until she is ready to drop her defenses and allow herself to feel genuine remorse you don't have any chance to reconcile with her.


I agree. I put was pushing her on that last night.


----------



## bfree

poida said:


> I agree. I put was pushing her on that last night.


People do not value things that are given to them. They only value what they had to work to get. If you GIVE her reconciliation she will not treasure it and you will find yourself back here before too long. If you allow her to work her azz off to win you and the marriage back she will value it and never risk losing it again. You've identified the hole in her soul. You cannot fill it. Only she can do that. Give her the opportunity to try.


----------



## turnera

bfree said:


> People do not value things that are given to them. They only value what they had to work to get. If you GIVE her reconciliation she will not treasure it and you will find yourself back here before too long. If you allow her to work her azz off to win you and the marriage back she will value it and never risk losing it again.


OMG, so true! This is Psychology 101. I tell people this ALL THE TIME! It's how I raised my daughter! 

She HAS to value this relationship. 

You are making it TOO EASY.


----------



## poida

OK, so we are at a stalemate. She won't R properly, and I won't take her back.

Many of you have said to move on and I agree with that.

I feel restricted by the fact I am married and in this place, even if I do want to move on.

I feel like I can't meet new women or date due to my marriage.

What else can I do in practice to move on.

Perhaps I should also sell the family home.

What do we think.


----------



## LongWalk

File for divorce to keep the ball moving. You can halt the proceedings later if she changes.


----------



## MyTurn

Poida,
I believe that bfree is spot on:
<<Look poida, the problem is you are trying to fix this. But you can't fix what you didn't beak. It really is that simple. She has access to therapy correct? This is something you need to let her work out with her therapist. If you want to give her therapist some direction on what you in particular need in order to consider reconciliation with her then that is fine. But she needs to do a lot of introspection and that cannot come from you. If she simply cannot deal with the guilt of what she's done then there is nothing you can do.>>

Or write a letter with what you told her earlier :

<<I explained that I was stuck in an empty place, that I couldn't move on with R or MC until she showed me some true remorse, something from the heart, something meaningful. I also said I didn't feel like she had really opened up about the affair, what she was feeling and how it ended. That she had brushed over the details. That I wasn't "feeling it", a feeling genuine sense of regret and commitment to making it work. And that if I she couldn't help me through the very first stage of dealing with the affair, then I will need to take another path.
>>
and give it to her ,to read it with her IC ,so they can discuss it in
therapy.


----------



## turnera

To move on:
Start removing personal pictures etc. from the home; box them up.
Actively start going to the gym or go running or whatever; just exercise.
Join some sort of men's group like a bowling league or a poker club, to get more time in with men and make new friends.
As you start losing weight or buffing up, start buying a new piece of clothing here and there.
Sign up for a class in something. Anything. Something you always wanted to learn about, like photography.
And volunteer somewhere.


----------



## Chaparral

What exactly did you tell her you need in order to reconcile? Did you give her a list such as the wayward spouse instructions? Did you give her any recommended books on surviving an affair?


----------



## carmen ohio

poida,

You continually speak and act as if you are faced with a dilemma of some sort -- should I do this or that, is this a good development or not, is she making progress or regressing? But there is no dilemma here, only a situation that you don't want to face because you fear the outcome.

The reason you think you are faced with a dilemma is attributable to the fact that you continually try to explain and even excuse your WW's bad behavior by pretending you know why she did what she did and what she is thinking now. Here are some examples:



> To put what has happened very simply, we had a communication/emotional breakdown in our relationship. My reaction was depression, hers was an affair as a result of a complete inability to talk about her issues within the relationship. This is why it came as a surprise to me - she simply has never had the communication skills to deal with the hard stuff and runs away from them instead.





> I think the WW didn't realise how serious an issue the EA was. Her total inability to deal with difficult issues has forced her to convince herself into justifying the EA with the marital problems. That the EA was just a result of our issues.





> I know she has it in her to do this properly and I know deep down she is thinking the right things but she just can't articulate them.





> Yes, whilst she is a very intelligent person and outwardly strong, she is inwardly delicate and really struggles to deal with any emotionally difficult situation.





> As a person, I still consider her to be caring and you might be very surprised to hear me say that I now think her decision to allow an affair to happen wasn't caused by selfish tendencies. At first I thought selfishness was central to the affair, but I have since changed my mind. It has become clear that the sheer inability to face difficulties in our marriage was the main cause, and running away to another man for emotional support was the reaction. A terribly bad and damaging reaction, but one she probably saw as an emotional necessity none the less.





> The poor state of our relationship was definitely a contributor to the WW allowing an EA event to occur. In my opinion, the WW's subconscious tendency to "run away" from relationship problems exacerbated her inability to deal with our issues.





> Deep down I know she feels terrible and wants to change so that she doesn't run away from problems.





> The most perplexing thing to me is what appears to be a deep and genuine frustration that she feels that she HAS been saying all of these things and I'm not listening. She said she feels lost with what I want from her.


The truth is that you have very little idea of why she did what she did and you cannot read her mind now to know what she is really thinking. All you can do, if you want to act in a rational manner, is to listen to what she says and observe what she does and then react appropriately.

I know why your doing this. It's because your rational mind is telling you that her behavior during her affair and now is not that of a loving, respectful, trustworthy person. But your heart doesn't want to accept this because it means that the woman you married isn't the person you thought her to be. So, you rationalize her behavior to convince yourself that, deep down, she is really a better person than she has proven herself to be. This gives you hope that, if you just say and do the right things, the "perfect" woman you thought you married will return to you. Of course, this is just a fantasy. In truth, you married someone capable of deceiving and betraying you without remorse. You need to accept this, and its corollary that she may never be the woman you want her to be.

There is no dilemma here, only a situation that calls for a response. Your WW cheated on you and has shown little remorse and even less inclination to do what would be necessary to save your marriage. If you can accept that, then you will understand that there are a very limited number of responses available to you:

- you can accept the fact that she's not sorry for what she's done, try to forget her affair, take her back and hope that she never does anything like this again;

- you can accept the fact that she's not sorry for what she's done, decide that as she is now she is not someone you want to spend he rest of your life with, file for divorce and start to rebuild your life; or

- you can continue put off making a decision in the (forlorn) hope that someday, somehow she will become the woman you thought and want her to be.

The first and third responses will almost certainly ensure that she will never be the woman you want her to be. The irony is that if you want her to become remorseful, to want to change, and to fall back in love with you, you need to let her know that you are done with her (the person she is right now) and have decided to move on.

This is what so many posters have been telling you and what you seem not to grasp. Don't feel bad, you've reacted the way most guys in your situation react and, like most of them, you will eventually realize what you need to do. But be warned that the longer you delay, the less likely she will ever come around.


----------



## poida

carmen ohio said:


> poida,
> 
> You continually speak and act as if you are faced with a dilemma of some sort -- should I do this or that, is this a good development or not, is she making progress or regressing? But there is no dilemma here, only a situation that you don't want to face because you fear the outcome.
> 
> The reason you think you are faced with a dilemma is attributable to the fact that you continually try to explain and even excuse your WW's bad behavior by pretending you know why she did what she did and what she is thinking now. Here are some examples:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The truth is that you have very little idea of why she did what she did and you cannot read her mind now to know what she is really thinking. All you can do, if you want to act in a rational manner, is to listen to what she says and observe what she does and then react appropriately.
> 
> I know why your doing this. It's because your rational mind is telling you that her behavior during her affair and now is not that of a loving, respectful, trustworthy person. But your heart doesn't want to accept this because it means that the woman you married isn't the person you thought her to be. So, you rationalize her behavior to convince yourself that, deep down, she is really a better person than she has proven herself to be. This gives you hope that, if you just say and do the right things, the "perfect" woman you thought you married will return to you. Of course, this is just a fantasy. In truth, you married someone capable of deceiving and betraying you without remorse. You need to accept this, and its corollary that she may never be the woman you want her to be.
> 
> There is no dilemma here, only a situation that calls for a response. Your WW cheated on you and has shown little remorse and even less inclination to do what would be necessary to save your marriage. If you can accept that, then you will understand that there are a very limited number of responses available to you:
> 
> - you can accept the fact that she's not sorry for what she's done, try to forget her affair, take her back and hope that she never does anything like this again;
> 
> - you can accept the fact that she's not sorry for what she's done, decide that as she is now she is not someone you want to spend he rest of your life with, file for divorce and start to rebuild your life; or
> 
> - you can continue put off making a decision in the (forlorn) hope that someday, somehow she will become the woman you thought and want her to be.
> 
> The first and third responses will almost certainly ensure that she will never be the woman you want her to be. The irony is that if you want her to become remorseful, to want to change, and to fall back in love with you, you need to let her know that you are done with her (the person she is right now) and have decided to move on.
> 
> This is what so many posters have been telling you and what you seem not to grasp. Don't feel bad, you've reacted the way most guys in your situation react and, like most of them, you will eventually realize what you need to do. But be warned that the longer you delay, the less likely she will ever come around.


All true except for two things;
1. She does love me and is trying desperately to be with me. She doesn't want to break up.

I have thought about this a lot, and I genuinely feel she is one of those few people who simply have not learned how to be completely open and remorseful in difficult times. In my opinion, it is something she can learn, but I have accepted it will take time. This has been a constant in our relationship and she has improved on several fronts during the relationship. I had hoped this event would help her take another big step, but I would suggest that the stress of it has caused her to withdraw and make no progress.

I know that these same flaws will see her "give up" on the relationship and never return when she just can't do something. Again, something I need to consider.

To be honest, I no longer expect the perfect woman "mirage" I had in the past, nor do I want it. It was an unrealistic and damaging view. I see she has problems and for me it actually "personalises" her. That is, she has become a person with flaws just like anybody else, and deserves the same level of criticism when they do something wrong - something I have never done.

I also know that she is very sorry for what she has done. I know it in my heart. It is just her complete inability to open up when she is in a place of pain that prevents her from opening up completely (something she has admitted to). Pushing her away and/or breaking up with her is not going to improve this response mechanism.

With the above comments in mind, I would propose the following option;

"I can accept that she is currently not able to show true remorse, and that by engaging with her, we can continue to open up about our feelings"

I have scheduled a meet tonight to talk about our situation. I have said we will have a talking stick. It will be for 1 hour only and all we are doing is talking about how we feel, not about what we need or expect.

From this, I will form my opinion about how to proceed. It may go nowhere and I am prepared for that.

I know that many of you will take a hard line response to what I have said above and that is fine.

I know though that it isn't a black and white situation like that. Everybody is different and I know that she has all the positive attributes required to make this work other than the one critical thing required to start the process - humility.

As a result of all her positive attributes, I am willing to create a situation where she might be able to show humility.


----------



## turnera

I have no words.

It's a first.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> I have no words.
> 
> It's a first.


What do you mean. No words about what.


----------



## nickgtg

poida said:


> What do you mean. No words about what.



I'm assuming that she feels what you wrote is utterly ridiculous.


----------



## turnera

Pretty much.


----------



## poida

Look, there are a lot of things that you guys haven't seen that she has done recently;
- she bakes for me,
- she buys me gifts
- she is kind to me
- she says she is proud of me and my progress is learning more about myself, by getting fit, by becoming closer to me friends and family, by being a confident man
- she does my washing and cleaning when I am not at home on weekends and she is looking after the dog.

These are things that a remorseful person does. 

Maybe you will say, "well what are you talking about then".

Well, I guess I have to hear sorry and feel remorse.

I guess I want her to beg for it. Perhaps that is f*cked up.


----------



## poida

poida said:


> Look, there are a lot of things that you guys haven't seen that she has done recently;
> - she bakes for me,
> - she buys me gifts
> - she is kind to me
> - she says she is proud of me and my progress is learning more about myself, by getting fit, by becoming closer to me friends and family, by being a confident man
> - she does my washing and cleaning when I am not at home on weekends and she is looking after the dog.
> 
> These are things that a remorseful person does.
> 
> Maybe you will say, "well what are you talking about then".
> 
> Well, I guess I have to hear sorry and feel remorse.
> 
> I guess I want her to beg for it. Perhaps that is f*cked up.


Do these things count for nothing?


----------



## nickgtg

You come here asking for advice, and you're getting that advice from posters who have seen it and heard it all.

In the end it's your life, and only you can figure out what's best for you in your situation.


----------



## turnera

Tell you what. If she is still doing all those things in 6 months, come back and let me know, and I'll agree you made the right decision.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Well, I guess I've wasted enough time trying to help him. I'm out.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Podia, two things stand out in your post. 

You are terrified of losing her.

if you accept her back without overt and obvious remorse, you will ALWAYS be her underling. 

Sorry.


----------



## poida

You know what - I think we can make it - And make it properly.
It has taken for me to shake this "perfect" image that I had of her for me to have a really honest view of who she is.
I think remorse is within her, and she has shown it through a lot of her actions, but she can't "say it" or open up and expose very personal parts of her.
I think we both need to work on breaking down the walls that protect her to see it. At first I thought it was a wall between us, but in truth, it is a wall she built around herself from a young age.
I agree it is very unconventional and I don't expect you guys to fully understand who she is, just like I couldn't understand who you from this forum. 
I just think it's a real shame that she can't just do what society in general (and I) would expect in this situation. 
The fact is the walls are up and lined with archers.
That doesn't mean there isn't a person in there that is hurting and deep down is horribly sorry for what she did.
Walking away from a fortified castle is not going to change anything, not ever.
This is why I persist.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> It has taken for me to shake this "perfect" image that I had of her for me to have a really honest view of who she is.


So...for you two to be together, you have to give up what YOU want - a faithful loving, giving wife - and just accept that you get whatever she wants to be.

Good luck with that.


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Podia, two things stand out in your post.
> 
> You are terrified of losing her.
> 
> if you accept her back without overt and obvious remorse, you will ALWAYS be her underling.
> 
> Sorry.


Look. Of course I don't want our marriage to end. Am I terrified of losing her? - not if she doesn't show remorse I'm not. That is clear to me.

I don't intend to let her back home until I have seen the remorse I need and expect.

What I am talking about above is opening up a dialogue in an attempt to allow her to show these things - nothing more.

I'm certainly not talking about bringing her home and carrying on with our marriage like nothing happened.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Her mum has always just buries any issue and never speaks about it again. My wife behaviour is a learnt one. Her dad can't stand being around his wife for any extended period of time and he works away as often as he can.


Welcome to your future.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> So...for you two to be together, you have to give up what YOU want - a faithful loving, giving wife - and just accept that you get whatever she wants to be.
> 
> Good luck with that.


NO, you can be a faithful loving, giving wife and have character flaws that need work. 

By me recognising that means I am capable of expecting change rather than re-enforcing poor emotional behaviour.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Welcome to your future.


So, what you are saying is that people don't change. Seems to be the constant in your arguments.


----------



## nickgtg

I've always said people don't change, and if they do it's only temporary.


----------



## turnera

People don't change WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO.

You SAY you're not moving her back in, that you're going to make her work on herself, but you are ALSO basically saying that you're taking her back. As soon as she knows that, psychologically speaking, _she will stop trying._


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> Look. Of course I don't want our marriage to end. Am I terrified of losing her? -* not if she doesn't show remorse I'm not. That is clear to me.*
> *I don't intend to let her back home until I have seen the remorse I need and expect.*
> What I am talking about above is opening up a dialogue in an attempt to allow her to show these things - nothing more.
> 
> I'm certainly not talking about bringing her home and carrying on with our marriage like nothing happened.


Phew, that's okay then. 

She will never show remorse, because she knows you need her too much. She has no fear. No drive to feel it, acknowledge it or be accountable. 

You accepting her cakes and gifts as though that is all she needs to do, then that is ALL she will do. Until she feels sufficiently comfortable enough and sure enough of your blind devotion to her to even stop that.......eventually.

I wish you all the best Poida, you sound like another typical Aussie Nice Guy. There are thousands of them out there. I can count all of the male members of my family being amongst them.

It's sad for the children of Australia, who need strong male role models, elders, brothers and fathers, but yet there are hardly any to be found.


----------



## turnera

Did you read LifeScript's thread yet?


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> People don't change WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO.
> 
> You SAY you're not moving her back in, that you're going to make her work on herself, but you are ALSO basically saying that you're taking her back. As soon as she knows that, psychologically speaking, _she will stop trying._


Nothing I have said or shown to her would indicate that. I have stood my ground in that respect.

- I constantly tell her I can't go forward without remorse
- I cancelled MC last Friday - said she wasn't ready
- I wrote her a letter clearly explaining why I can't get back together in the current situation as it would just allow the same old habits proceed and would break us down.
- I have staunchly refused to let her move home when she has asked several times.

Look, sure I have made mistakes and I agree it has put us back. Sleeping with her was my biggest. It is a confusing and difficult time and obviously I have been emotionally confused. I don't think it is unrecoverable though. 

Everything I have posed in this forum has been about my internal battle. What if's etc.

I agree with you, and is why it is my plan tonight to sit down and listen (as you suggested) to how she feels. Try to create a situation of comfort where she can open up.

I'm sure my answer will come from what she says (or more likely, what she doesn't say).

All I am saying is that I don't think pushing her away completely and walking away is going to work guys. She just isn't that kind of person. And OF COURSE that compromises my ideals and my position, but if I force her away, there is ZERO chance of R.

The only chance of even beginning the road to R is one where she feels she can open up again.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Did you read LifeScript's thread yet?


No, but I will. Ta.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Over her cheating but now she "needs space"*



poida said:


> Look, there are a lot of things that you guys haven't seen that she has done recently;
> - she bakes for me,
> - she buys me gifts
> - she is kind to me
> - she says she is proud of me and my progress is learning more about myself, by getting fit, by becoming closer to me friends and family, by being a confident man
> - she does my washing and cleaning when I am not at home on weekends and she is looking after the dog.
> 
> These are things that a remorseful person does.
> 
> Maybe you will say, "well what are you talking about then".
> 
> Well, I guess I have to hear sorry and feel remorse.
> 
> I guess I want her to beg for it. Perhaps that is f*cked up.


Sounds like your mother not your wife.


----------



## poida

Yes, I thought exactly that when I wrote it.
Interestingly, she states that this is one of the reasons for her resenting my in our marriage prior to the EA.
I am beginning to see that she has been self conflicting in a few ways during our marriage. The results of which led to the EA in her view. Obviously she hasn't made the connection.


----------



## poida

poida said:


> No, but I will. Ta.


BPD huh.

Well, there are some traits she has that are similar to BDP that would include;

- "it can take longer than normal for people with BPD to return to a stable emotional baseline following an intense emotional experience.[13]"

- "People with BPD are especially sensitive to feelings of rejection, isolation, and perceived failure.[15]

- "Before learning other coping mechanisms, their efforts to manage or escape from their intense negative emotions can lead to self-injury or suicidal behaviour.[16] ****** However I think she physically runs away from problems instead.

- They are often aware of the intensity of their negative emotional reactions and, since they cannot regulate them, they shut them down entirely.[13]

- Impulsive behaviors can also include quitting jobs or relationships, running away, and self-injury.[20] ******* Interestingly she has told her boss she is leaving. Clearly she quit our relationship and running away (emotionally) is definitely something she does.

- "People with BPD can be very sensitive to the way others treat them, feeling intense joy and gratitude at perceived expressions of kindness, and intense sadness or anger at perceived criticism or hurtfulness.[26] Their feelings about others often shift from positive to negative after a disappointment, a perceived threat of losing someone, or a perceived loss of esteem in the eyes of someone they value. This phenomenon, sometimes called splitting or black-and-white thinking, includes a shift from idealizing others (feeling admiration and love) to devaluing them (feeling anger or dislike).[27] Combined with mood disturbances, idealization and devaluation can undermine relationships with family, friends, and co-workers.[28] Self-image can also change rapidly from positive to negative.


By far the most recognisable trait I see is;

- "People with BPD tend to have trouble seeing a clear picture of their identity. In particular, they tend to have a hard time knowing what they value and enjoy.[34] They are often unsure about their long-term goals for relationships and jobs. This difficulty with knowing who they are and what they value can cause people with BPD to experience feeling "empty" and "lost".[34]

The WW has been saying she doesn't know who she is since the EA. Perhaps she has felt this way for a long time.

Hmmm...Interesting.......:scratchhead:


----------



## poida

Holy crap. Have been watching a lot of BDP vids and reading a bit about it.

If it isn't fully blown BDP, then she definitely shows quite a lot of the symptoms and personality traits.

Oh god. What the hell do I do now. More reading.

This would definitely explain why no matter how hard I try to reason with her in a logical manner, I get nowhere.


----------



## BobSimmons

poida said:


> Look. Of course I don't want our marriage to end. Am I terrified of losing her? - not if she doesn't show remorse I'm not. That is clear to me.
> 
> I don't intend to let her back home until I have seen the remorse I need and expect.
> 
> What I am talking about above is opening up a dialogue in an attempt to allow her to show these things - nothing more.
> 
> I'm certainly not talking about bringing her home and carrying on with our marriage like nothing happened.


You talk a good game but ultimately it's all excuses. You won't let her back until she shows remorse. She hasn't and by your own words probably can't/won't, so ultimately you're just hanging there in limbo with this fake proviso that you'll let back back when she shows remorse.

That's like me saying I'll mow the lawn when the sky turns yellow. Won't be seeing that mower for a long time yet.


----------



## BobSimmons

poida said:


> Holy crap. Have been watching a lot of BDP vids and reading a bit about it.
> 
> If it isn't fully blown BDP, then she definitely shows quite a lot of the symptoms and personality traits.
> 
> Oh god. What the hell do I do now. More reading.
> 
> This would definitely explain why no matter how hard I try to reason with her in a logical manner, I get nowhere.


Oh please. She's a cheater. She cheated because she wanted to. She cheated because somewhere it felt good and she got addicted to it. Again with the excuses.

I guess it's time to confess I like lots of sex. I'm a sex addict. I like lots of coffee. I'm a coffee addict.

A bit of drama queening with this pronouncement. But you're well on your way to rug sweeping.


----------



## poida

Bob, how can you be so specific about someone you have never met. Does generalising help you?


----------



## turnera

Honestly, aside from your wife being a bit to the side, I wanted you to read his thread so you could see HIS journey, HIS failure to be able to let go, and how many times he has gone soft and given in to her, and how hard it has been on him to not let go. He deleted his first thread (tired of us telling him to just let go), but he's been on a 3-year journey here with us, telling us he was done and then letting her back in, then griping, then telling us he was done and then letting her back in...and each time she grew bolder and bolder because she SAW that he was incapable of letting go and walking away. Until now, although I think that why he's leaving the thread this time is because he doesn't want to get sh*t from us when he takes her back again, as I think he's getting ready to do.

If she loves you like you think she does/want her to, she won't just give up and walk away if you ignore her for awhile. If you let her see you moving on. If she loves you, she will wait, she will fight for you, and she will MOVE outside that comfort zone of hers and actually ADMIT her mistakes (i.e. real remorse, not just words).

But that will never happen as long as you're still talking to her every day and throwing her bones. Psychologically speaking, it just won't.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Bob, how can you be so specific about someone you have never met. Does generalising help you?


poida, he's saying what we're all seeing: words, not actions (aside from baking and cleaning, which she should be doing anyway). 

If she can maintain this 'remorse' for 6 months, if she's been seeing an IC for the whole 6 months, if she's been arranging MC the whole 6 months, if she's lined up a polygraph for herself in that time, if she's gone to a lawyer and drawn up a postnup saying she loses everything if she cheats again, if she's admitted to her folks and yours that she cheated on you and asks their forgiveness...THOSE ACTIONS mean something.


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> Look, there are a lot of things that you guys haven't seen that she has done recently;
> *1* she bakes for me,
> *2* she buys me gifts
> *3 *she is kind to me
> *4* she says she is proud of me and my progress is learning more about myself, by getting fit, by becoming closer to me friends and family, by being a confident man
> *5* she does my washing and cleaning when I am not at home on weekends and she is looking after the dog.
> 
> These are things that a remorseful person does.


1, 2, 3 and 5 have really nothing to do with remorse.
4? just words.

didn't you have a list somewhere that you wanted her to address involving sh!t that really matters to you? questions that you need to be answered so you can sincerely put this behind you? has she taken care of everything on that list yet? 

if not, she needs to.


----------



## BobSimmons

poida said:


> Bob, how can you be so specific about someone you have never met. Does generalising help you?


Only going by what you write. It's an opinion based on your evidence. Clearly you know better. Good luck to you.


----------



## TRy

poida said:


> Bob, how can you be so specific about someone you have never met. Does generalising help you?


 If you showed your wife the same take no sh!t attitude that you show posters trying to help you here on this site, you would have a much better handle on things than you do now. Just saying.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Honestly, aside from your wife being a bit to the side, I wanted you to read his thread so you could see HIS journey, HIS failure to be able to let go, and how many times he has gone soft and given in to her, and how hard it has been on him to not let go. He deleted his first thread (tired of us telling him to just let go), but he's been on a 3-year journey here with us, telling us he was done and then letting her back in, then griping, then telling us he was done and then letting her back in...and each time she grew bolder and bolder because she SAW that he was incapable of letting go and walking away. Until now, although I think that why he's leaving the thread this time is because he doesn't want to get sh*t from us when he takes her back again, as I think he's getting ready to do.
> 
> If she loves you like you think she does/want her to, she won't just give up and walk away if you ignore her for awhile. If you let her see you moving on. If she loves you, she will wait, she will fight for you, and she will MOVE outside that comfort zone of hers and actually ADMIT her mistakes (i.e. real remorse, not just words).
> 
> But that will never happen as long as you're still talking to her every day and throwing her bones. Psychologically speaking, it just won't.


OK, I'm ready to really move on now.

I pulled her over last night to have a talk about where we are at. The rules were;
- unless you are holding the talking stick, no talking
- no talking about events, or what the other person did or didn't do
- only talking about how YOU feel, what deep down you are going through, what you want in the relationship and what you see in the future
- 1 hour max
- option for questions at the end if the other person feels comfortable answering
- option to leave at any time, no obligation to stay

She came over and was very hesitant to start so I started.

I simply said what it felt like being cheated on, how I was hurting, didn't trust her, wasn't feeling empathy or remorse, was alone, that she didn't care about how I felt, that I felt like we were growing apart, that I was frustrated by the current situation, that I understood more about my personal "mummy" issues and was working on them, and that despite all that has happened I still love her, but that I can't move forward without us finishing the very first step to R.

She essentially didn't say a single thing about how she felt. She simply carried on about what I did, that she didn't trust me, that she was alone in the last couple of years in our marriage and that this caused the affair, that I was depressed and she couldn't talk to me, that she has already said a thousand times that she is sorry and that she doesn't know what else she wants from me.

I was totally stunned, speechless. 

I came to realise the delusion she is living under. That she is simply unable to open herself up. That protecting herself is more important than ANYTHING in the world. All I could think was why the he*l is she like this, what caused it? It was like a total stranger was in front of me and yet it was all too familiar.

I asked a few questions. I asked why she was unable to open up, why she had to protect herself.

She replied by going on the attack again. That I pushed her away, that she couldn't open up until she trusted me and I was her friend. I had kicked her out of the house and that I didn't even want her back so it was pointless.

Again... stunned. I forgot my last question, but it tipped her over the edge and she said she had to go. I said nothing. I just sat there and drank my wine. She walked out and then walked back in and called my name quietly. I ignored her. She left.

Within 5 minutes I got a message saying "Thank you for tonight. If I could take everything back and be together I would. Everything just seems so impossible right now" "I hope you get some sleep, I love you very much"
I didn't reply.

I get a call this morning before work. 
Her - "Hi".... silence.
Me -"Hi".......silence.......
Her - "I don't know what you want.
Me - I can't tell you. It will only be taken as an attack.
Her - I don't know what to do (growing frustration)
Me - If you knew a person who was in deep pain, has been hurt badly, that was lonely, frustrated and depressed, what could you do to help them?
Her - I don't know. Just tell me what to do.
Me - Have you even discussed this with your PC?
Her - No, he just says we need time apart. That you discuss this in MC.
Me - Well, I can't tell you what to do. Its a journey you have to make. All I can suggest is that you discuss it with your PC.
Silence......
Me - I've got to go.
Her - Bye (prompt and hang up quickly)

I'm going to admit now that much of your advice has been right. Her texts and call prove that she is willing to pursue me when I walk away.

What seems doubtful to me is whether she can learn to put down her wall, show remorse and let anyone into her life.

The path forward seems clearer to me now. MOVE ON.

I am going to prepare our second house for sale and get it sold. 

When 12 months of separation is up (legal requirement here), file for divorce.

If she can change within that period of time, then I will see how I feel then, but otherwise I don't see it happening because who she is now is simply not a person I want to live with.


----------



## nickgtg

"MOVE ON" is the best thing you said in your last post. She's not remorseful at all, I think you're realizing that.

When she is still blaming you for her cheating, then you know it's time to move forward with your life.

She doesn't have a wall built up, she's just lying to protect herself and she doesn't care about you at all.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I came to realise the delusion she is living under. That she is simply unable to open herself up. That protecting herself is more important than ANYTHING in the world.


I'm no expert (hope they will chime in), but this one thing seems to be the key foundation to BPD - inability to be seen as flawed, for fear of abandonment.


----------



## nickgtg

Also a trait of the selfish cheater.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> I'm no expert (hope they will chime in), but this one thing seems to be the key foundation to BPD - inability to be seen as flawed, for fear of abandonment.


I don't know but it doesn't work for me and there is no sign the situation is going to magically turn around.

I need to stop worrying about how SHE feels, about HER problems.

It's ME time now.


----------



## turnera

nickgtg said:


> "MOVE ON" is the best thing you said in your last post. She's not remorseful at all


I think she is remorseful - to the extent that her FOO has allowed her to be remorseful (without having to protect herself).

But that is NOTHING you can do for her. It MUST come from her, and will likely take her YEARS of therapy and hard work.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I don't know but it doesn't work for me and there is no sign the situation is going to magically turn around.
> 
> I need to stop worrying about how SHE feels, about HER problems.
> 
> It's ME time now.


Absolutely.

And about time.

Good luck. We're still here if you need us. Seen it all.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

poida said:


> What seems doubtful to me is whether she can learn to put down her wall, show remorse and let anyone into her life.
> 
> The path forward seems clearer to me now. MOVE ON.
> 
> I am going to prepare our second house for sale and get it sold.
> 
> When 12 months of separation is up (legal requirement here), file for divorce.
> 
> *If she can change within that period of time, then I will see how I feel then*, but otherwise I don't see it happening because who she is now is simply not a person I want to live with.


I'm sorry to say, I think this is very doubtful that she'll be spending this time alone.

She will let someone into her life, it just won't be you.

I hope I am wrong, I really do, but from what you've written about your WS - I think she will end up doing what makes her feel better in the short term.

Drunks drink to forget. She'll do the same with new relationships during your seporation.

In 5, or 10 years she may have regrets, but the bridge will have long since been burned.


----------



## Chaparral

Do not get me wrong, I in no way am recommending R. However, I have seen many people here that simply did not know how to do what needed to be done to reconcile. Your wife among them. I think that she needs a guide. This is a very difficult situation and I do not see how every wayward is supposed to reinvent the wheel to R.

Have you tried going over the wayward spouse instructions with her. There are a couple of other guides floating around here too. 

Print this off and go over it with her. As a matter of fact I do not really understand what you are looking for either. Maybe this will help. In any event, good luck and prayers.

Chap

_Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness._


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## Uptown

poida said:


> If it isn't fully blown BDP, then she definitely shows quite a lot of the symptoms and personality traits.... This would definitely explain why no matter how hard I try to reason with her in a logical manner, I get nowhere.


Poida, every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the BPD traits -- albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has the traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits these traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she has most of these BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. 

Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you are capable of spotting any red flags that exist if you take time to learn the warning signs. Most women know, for example, how to spot the warning signs for breast cancer -- without being able to diagnose it. Similarly, most men over 50 know the warning signs for heart attack and stroke -- without being able to diagnose those diseases. Likewise, you are capable of spotting the warning signs for BPD -- without being able to diagnose it -- if you take a little time to learn what to look for. 


> I came to realise the delusion she is living under. That she is simply unable to open herself up. That protecting herself is more important than ANYTHING in the world.


If she has strong BPD traits as you suspect then, yes, you are absolutely right. Protecting herself is of utmost importance. Indeed, it is so important that the task is almost fully handled by her subconscious, which projects her hurtful thoughts and feelings onto you to protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. In that way, you are used as a trashcan in which to dispose of guilt and other hurtful feelings.

Moreover, because these projections work entirely at the subconscious level, her conscious mind usually is fully convinced they are true. And, when she changes her mind 180 degrees a week later, she will be just as convinced that new view is correct also. The primary reason that this distortion of reality occurs is that BPDers are filled with enormous self loathing and shame. Hence, the last thing a BPDer wants to see is one more item to add to the long list of things she hates about herself.


> When 12 months of separation is up (legal requirement here), file for divorce. If she can change within that period of time, then I will see how I feel.


I agree with Tunera that, if your W has strong BPD traits, it likely will take at least several years before you see a substantial, lasting change -- in the very unlikely event that she will remain in therapy that long.


> What the hell do I do now? More reading.


Poida, if you are interested in reading more about BPD warning signs, I suggest you start with my list of red flags for BPD at 18 Traits. If most of those traits sound very familiar, I suggest you read my more detailed description of BPD warning signs at my post in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings some bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Learning to spot these warning signs is important because, even if you do decide to divorce your W, you will be at risk of running right into the arms of another woman just like her. Take care, Poida.


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## poida

Chaparral said:


> Do not get me wrong, I in no way am recommending R. However, I have seen many people here that simply did not know how to do what needed to be done to reconcile. Your wife among them. I think that she needs a guide. This is a very difficult situation and I do not see how every wayward is supposed to reinvent the wheel to R.
> 
> Have you tried going over the wayward spouse instructions with her. There are a couple of other guides floating around here too.
> 
> Print this off and go over it with her. As a matter of fact I do not really understand what you are looking for either. Maybe this will help. In any event, good luck and prayers.
> 
> Chap


I gave her the guide a couple months ago. It is as though she has not read it. She says she has.

I have just sent it to her again. And then immediately regretted doing so because I am seen to be doing the heavy lifting again.


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## Chaparral

poida said:


> I gave her the guide a couple months ago. It is as though she has not read it. She says she has.
> 
> I have just sent it to her again. And then immediately regretted doing so because I am seen to be doing the heavy lifting again.


The best way to do it is to go over the guide together, point by point. That way you can actually see her reactions. You can also emphasize points that really strike a chord with you and point out things she has done you like. She needs to see that she can make progress and that you appreciate her efforts.

Btw, if you read the background of the 180, you will see that it is not a tool to reconcile and may drive a wayward away. Everyone is different. It is a tool to get over the relationship you are in. Some waywards are challenged by this and fight to save the relationship. Others see it and give up though that may not be what they want. Its a matter of the personality differences.


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## Remains

You remind me of me.

I have never read over my past threads, my 1st threads upon arriving at this forum, because I have wanted to move on from them. I have wanted to move away from them. I was scared ofreading them. And I didn't want to be reminded, to drag it all back up again. However....

Over the last week I have read over all the main threads I started. And it was an embarrassing read. I can feel the confusion and desperation emanating from the posts I wrote. The ignoring of the obvious due to the confusion I was immersed in. Such a sad state of affairs. Such a sad long waste of time. 

The questions you ask, they are all just a meaningless diversion from your reality. Just as mine were. The excuses you make, the same. 

Limbo is hell, a waste of precious time. I hope you 'get it' soon. 

Someone wrote something along the lines of 'you will be here like this in 2 years time', he was being flippant...possibly. I thought he was being ridiculous. And yet here, almost exactly 2 years later, I have got nowhere other than closer to the end that was plain to see all that time ago. I am still a fool. But a much more hardened one, and a most likely far more damaged one. I dread to think what the next person I have in my life might have to deal with now after all this. Only time will tell. 

I don't know what advice to give you in order to help you, the best advice you have been given innumerable times. Only you can help you. And really, is she worth a life of upset, and fighting for every bit of remorse you think you deserve and should get (like any normal person would give). It ain't happening. You ain't getting it. And no amount of giving her sh*t to read (yeah, I gave mine that piece above too and it never registered) will make her do sh*t. She won't do what's necessary until she HAS to. Take note of Turnera. She's the bit*h to behold and she is right on the ball.

Stop it already with the rationalising of the irrational. Accept that there is no reasoning. Only consequences. Consequences are your only friend right now. Tough love.


----------



## Remains

Think 'what would a person who takes no sh*t do?' And then do it. Fake it til you make it.


----------



## Remains

TBH, I think the issue is more to do with the likes of me and you rather than them. Why is it that we stay with someone who would cause us so much damage and not really be too sorry about it? What is wrong with people like you and I? Others would never put up with this sh*t. So why would you? Why do I?


----------



## poida

Remains said:


> TBH, I think the issue is more to do with the likes of me and you rather than them. Why is it that we stay with someone who would cause us so much damage and not really be too sorry about it? What is wrong with people like you and I? Others would never put up with this sh*t. So why would you? Why do I?


Than you so much Remains for your comments.

I can't tell you how comforting it is to hear from someone who seems to think a bit closer to how I do.

Your comment about rationalising things is right on. 
Your comments about being in limbo resonate with me so strongly.
Please PM me as I have a few questions.

Rationalising things is at the core of who I am. There has to be a reason, a fix, a way around it.

I NEVER give up. I can be outwardly negative sometimes, but inwardly someone who never gives in. Always believing there is a solution to everything, no matter how difficult or helpless the situation. This is what drives me.

Unfortunately, what this also means is that I am very selfless. I am always putting other people before me. In this situation, I want to help the WW to fix our problems.

I can understand that an EA can occur and I can forgive that, but it breaks my fricken heart when I contemplate the possibility that it is possible for a human to be so selfish and cruel and self centred that they couldn't give a hoot about the people they have hurt. I cannot fathom that. This dis-belief is what keeps me in this place of limbo.

I am battling to let this "hold" I have on this belief go, but it is not easy. I can see how it would be the easiest thing in the world for some people, but it is the most difficult thing I have ever done and I still have a lot of work to do.

Most of the people here get very frustrated at me because of how I feel. I can't help it, and I get very depressed as a result.

You know, part of me hears the desperate messages telling me to MOVE ON, and I can even put myself in that mode on some days, but I always relapse back to my default, even though it is a painful place to me. A sucker for punishment some would say.

I'm glad you have spoken up. I feel a lot better.


----------



## poida

Remains said:


> Accept that there is no reasoning. Only consequences. Consequences are your only friend right now. Tough love.


Remains, do you think that if you had taken a hard stand at 4 months (where I am) that your WW might have changed?

If so, what practical changes would you have made?

- Does this really mean NO contact?
- What should I do if she calls me or visits the house?
- Do I cancel MC all together?
- Do I forget even something like reading through the guide together?
- Do I move the remainder of her **** out of the house?
- Do I tell her NEVER to visit the house (note that her dog lives with me due to rental limitations where she is staying).
- Do I say exactly what I need from here again or do I say nothing at all?

I'm sure you know how confused I am. I am just at a point where MOVING ON needs to be broken down into small practical baby steps. I need help.


----------



## turnera

poida, how much reading have you done about affairs so far? How many books? Articles about 'the fog?'

I ask because you talk about her as though you just can't understand why the woman you know and love could do this. But if you read up on it, it will make much more sense. Why do you think we say that a cheater turns into an alien? Or a drug addict? Because it turns them into some sort of crazy person you can't recognize.

Now, sometimes, they can turn back into the old person you knew; sometimes they can't. But if you're determined to keep her, you should read up on it so you know what you're dealing with.


----------



## poida

OK, thanks.
Any suggestions of a good one?


----------



## poida

And no, I can't understand. It is something I simply cannot fathom.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

poida said:


> And no, *I can't understand*. It is something I simply cannot fathom.


Don't confuse understanding with agreeing. After all that you've read, seen and heard about EA's, you really don't understand how it can happen?

An EA/PA is possible in even the seemingly most solid and lofty of marriages. It happens. A lot. It's the down side of the high tech, social medium driven, world that we are all now a part of.

A text here, an email there. Some times, many times, it adds up to and EA, or even a PA.

It's human nature. many times it boils down to the person(especially women) gets to feel things emotionally that they haven't felt in their relationship for a long time. Other people(especially men) use it to get sex.

Well, that's how I understand it. Do I agree with it, HELL NO. But it is what it is. You can try to work on it, or move on.

I know many of us here are quick on the draw with saying file for D, but there are good reasons for that. You want to try to R and I commend you for it.

Your wife is unique, but she has followed the path that hundreds of thousands of other people have strayed upon. In this regard she is very common.


----------



## poida

No, I can fully understand how an EA can occur and I can accept that. I can and am willing to completely forgive her for it provided that there is remorse etc.

What I struggle to understand is why, when a WW still says they love you dearly, they do nice things for you, they try to be with you, and they keep saying they want the marriage to work, WHY as a human being can they not show empathy for a person they supposedly care for.

Perhaps I have just answered my own question with "supposedly".

Perhaps she is trying to save the marriage for HERSELF rather than US. 

Perhaps she just does genuinely have trouble dropping her protective walls.

Perhaps it will all happen and it will take time.

Perhaps it is over for her emotionally and she is hanging onto the relationship through morals of her own.

I really don't know, nor have I ever known since the EA.

The most confusing this she has said is that she can't do the remorse thing until she has built back up a friendship with me and trusts me. What the?????? 

My latest thinking is that she is just struggling to say the sorry word and show remorse (always has) and is looking for the most painless way back into my life. That version seems to make the most sense.


----------



## carmen ohio

poida said:


> No, I can fully understand how an EA can occur and I can accept that. I can and am willing to completely forgive her for it provided that there is remorse etc.
> 
> What I struggle to understand is why, when a WW still says they love you dearly, they do nice things for you, they try to be with you, and they keep saying they want the marriage to work, *WHY as a human being can they not show empathy for a person they supposedly care for*.
> 
> Perhaps I have just answered my own question with "supposedly".
> 
> *Perhaps she* is trying to save the marriage for HERSELF rather than US.
> 
> *Perhaps she* just does genuinely have trouble dropping her protective walls.
> 
> *Perhaps it* will all happen and it will take time.
> 
> *Perhaps it* is over for her emotionally and she is hanging onto the relationship through morals of her own.
> 
> *I really don't know,* nor have I ever known since the EA.
> 
> The most confusing this *she has said* is that she can't do the remorse thing until she has built back up a friendship with me and trusts me. What the??????
> 
> *My latest thinking is that she* is just struggling to say the sorry word and show remorse (always has) and is looking for the most painless way back into my life. That version seems to make the most sense.


poida,

Let me suggest that you stop trying to figure her out and start figuring yourself out.

- Why are _you_ still so attached to someone who shows no "empathy" toward you?

- Why are _you_ fighting so hard to save a marriage that your WW has destroyed by cheating on you and made so little effort to save?

- Why are _you_ still contemplating spending the rest of your life with a woman who treats you as she does?

- How long are _you_ prepared to put up with her lack of remorse, blame shifting and self-centeredness (whatever the reason for these)?

- What are _your_ morals when it comes to your marriage, her infidelity and her inability to show true remorse?

- How much more do _you_ have to know about her before you decide what is best for you?

- Are _you_ prepared to do try her "friend" again and rebuild her "trust" in the hope that she will one day become truly remorseful for betraying you?

- Are _you_ prepared to let her back into your life in a manner that is least "painful" to her and do _you_ really believe that, if you do, the two of you will live happily ever after?

- Do _you_ really believe that the solution to your situation lies in your trying to figure her out?

As long as you focus your attention on trying to understand her and change her behavior, rather than understanding yourself and doing what is best for you, you will remain in the state of limbo in which you find yourself.

Whatever the reason, she is a very confused and broken person. Unfortunately, at the moment, so are you. You need to fix yourself before you can be of any help to her.

Have you read _"No More Mr. Nice Guy"_ yet?


----------



## tom67

carmen ohio said:


> poida,
> 
> Let me suggest that you stop trying to figure her out and start figuring yourself out.
> 
> - Why are _you_ still so attached to someone who shows no "empathy" toward you?
> 
> - Why are _you_ fighting so hard to save a marriage that your WW has destroyed by cheating on you and made so little effort to save?
> 
> - Why are _you_ still contemplating spending the rest of your life with a woman who treats you as she does?
> 
> - How long are _you_ prepared to put up with her lack of remorse, blame shifting and self-centeredness (whatever the reason for these)?
> 
> - What are _your_ morals when it comes to your marriage, her infidelity and her inability to show true remorse?
> 
> - How much more do _you_ have to know about her before you decide what is best for you?
> 
> - Are _you_ prepared to do try her "friend" again and rebuild her "trust" in the hope that she will one day become truly remorseful for betraying you?
> 
> - Are _you_ prepared to let her back into your life in a manner that is least "painful" to her and do _you_ really believe that, if you do, the two of you will live happily ever after?
> 
> - Do _you_ really believe that the solution to your situation lies in your trying to figure her out?
> 
> As long as you focus your attention on trying to understand her and change her behavior, rather than understanding yourself and doing what is best for you, you will remain in the state of limbo in which you find yourself.
> 
> Whatever the reason, she is a very confused and broken person. Unfortunately, at the moment, so are you. You need to fix yourself before you can be of any help to her.
> 
> Have you read _"No More Mr. Nice Guy"_ yet?


Dude read this 3 times I can't like this enough.
Only YOU can control what you will put up with.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

poida said:


> (Edited down)No, I can fully understand how an EA can occur and I can accept that. I can and am willing to completely forgive her for it provided that there is remorse etc.
> 
> What I struggle to understand is why, when a WW still says they love you dearly, they do nice things for you, they try to be with you, and they keep saying they want the marriage to work, WHY as a human being can they not show empathy for a person they supposedly care for.


Sorry, I misunderstood what you had meant.

I think a person in your wife's situation was saying and doing things that she knew you wanted to here and see. while at the same time getting her emotional needs fulfilled elsewhere.

Just trying to keep the wolves at bay, while she carried on with the fantasy that the EA had to offered her.

If it seems like she was/is not acting like the wife you once knew, it's because she isn't. She was and still is in the fog as far as I can see. Many of us believe that filing D works wonders to snap them out it.

Does it always work, or get the desired effect? No, but if she doesn't start changing her tune soon, it may be your ace in the hole. Your final card.

I hope that she starts acting how a remorseful WS should act and soon. But if not, then you have a tough choice to make. Btw, some on TAM have D'd and ended up getting back together with there ex's - So just because someone files D, doesn't mean they have to go through with it. If they go through with, it doesn't mean that they can't get back together and start a new.

I know you probably feel that many of us are all doom 'n' gloom, but were(for the most part) just being realistic.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Perhaps she is trying to save the marriage for HERSELF rather than US.


Best thing you've said yet.

Even getting married in the first place is done for ourselves, not for the other person. Most decisions you make in a marriage are for yourself, in whatever form it makes you happy to do something. You may start OUT doing things for your spouse because you're under the fog of the PEA chemicals, but over time, you're waiting more and more for them to do that for YOU, not the other way around (unless you are following a program like Harley's). Eventually, giving/taking is flat, with each of us just protecting ourselves - UNLESS one of the people is more selfish than the other, more willing to TAKE at the expense of the other, and then you have affairs. 

That's who you got, poida. Up to you to decide if you can live with that level of selfishness and self-preservation and understand that you will NEVER come first.


----------



## turnera

If you haven't read NMMNG and MMSLP yet, THAT should be your #1 concern at this point.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> If you haven't read NMMNG and MMSLP yet, THAT should be your #1 concern at this point.


Thanks,
Sorry, what is the second one? 
P


----------



## turnera

Married Man Sex Life Primer
Books by Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life


----------



## Remains

poida said:


> Than you so much Remains for your comments.
> 
> I can't tell you how comforting it is to hear from someone who seems to think a bit closer to how I do.
> 
> Your comment about rationalising things is right on.
> Your comments about being in limbo resonate with me so strongly.
> Please PM me as I have a few questions.
> 
> Rationalising things is at the core of who I am. There has to be a reason, a fix, a way around it.
> 
> I NEVER give up. I can be outwardly negative sometimes, but inwardly someone who never gives in. Always believing there is a solution to everything, no matter how difficult or helpless the situation. This is what drives me.
> 
> Unfortunately, what this also means is that I am very selfless. I am always putting other people before me. In this situation, I want to help the WW to fix our problems.*Yup, my line of thinking too! It doesn't work unless they want and appreciate your help.*
> 
> I can understand that an EA can occur and I can forgive that, but it breaks my fricken heart when I contemplate the possibility that it is possible for a human to be so selfish and cruel and self centred that they couldn't give a hoot about the people they have hurt. I cannot fathom that. This dis-belief is what keeps me in this place of limbo.*Same again! *
> 
> I am battling to let this "hold" I have on this belief go, but it is not easy. I can see how it would be the easiest thing in the world for some people, but it is the most difficult thing I have ever done and I still have a lot of work to do.
> 
> Most of the people here get very frustrated at me because of how I feel. I can't help it, and I get very depressed as a result.
> 
> You know, part of me hears the desperate messages telling me to MOVE ON, and I can even put myself in that mode on some days, but I always relapse back to my default, even though it is a painful place to me. A sucker for punishment some would say.*And same again!*
> 
> I'm glad you have spoken up. I feel a lot better.


*You are welcome. I am glad I wrote something useful to you. Happy to be of help, and that you feel better for it.*


----------



## DavidWYoung

I have not read this to the end but I will put in mt 2 cents.

A fat ugly guy could pull an 8 in this bad job market. Stop thinking of her and start thinking of you. Run, workout with kettelbells and maybe p90x.

Look up the male blogsphere(sp). Travel if you can. Learn to cook ten dishes that would impress Julia Child.

Life is too short to put up with your unhappiness. Change things NOW!


----------



## Remains

poida said:


> Remains, do you think that if you had taken a hard stand at 4 months (where I am) that your WW might have changed?
> 
> If so, what practical changes would you have made?
> 
> - Does this really mean NO contact?
> - What should I do if she calls me or visits the house?
> - Do I cancel MC all together?
> - Do I forget even something like reading through the guide together?
> - Do I move the remainder of her **** out of the house?
> - Do I tell her NEVER to visit the house (note that her dog lives with me due to rental limitations where she is staying).
> - Do I say exactly what I need from here again or do I say nothing at all?
> 
> I'm sure you know how confused I am. I am just at a point where MOVING ON needs to be broken down into small practical baby steps. I need help.


I think if I had taken a hard stance right at the beginning it would have been the most positive thing I could have done. But I kept getting sucked back in again by empty words and loving gestures. The actions were never there. Only ever hints of them to give enough hope... but nothing real. All a facade of giving enough to get me back and nothing continuing after he got what he wanted. I took the easy route every time. But the harder and more painful route in the long run. Very negative.

You need to decide what you want and need from a relationship... not just with her, with anyone. Write the list of what you need for her to fix it and what you need in general. And stick to it. Stick to your guns. If her coming to the house is based on fixing things, let her come over. Boundaries in place though so you both stay on topic. If she comes over and isn't fixing, ask her to leave and be harder on the situation next time.

MC is only useful if it is fixing things and if the issues are being dealt with. If she is not embracing it, cancel. And don't go back til she is saying the right things to you so you know she 'gets it' and truly wishes to fix it.

As for reading the guide with her, again, if she wishes to. Wants to. What's the point if its all coming from you and she isn't embracing it! You are only opening yourself up for more heartache and disappointment.

Move the remainder of her stuff out if you want... doesn't really matter at this stage. Though if it is clear that the move is permanent and she is never going to 'get it' then yes, of course. Move it all out. The more ties that are cut when it is clear there is no moving forward makes it easier to move forward without her.

Visiting the house... tell her only to come over if she needs to. Note 'need'. If that need is the dog, fine. If the need is to make effort... real effort to fix your relationship, fine also.

Only tell her what you need if she asks. You have told her already, she doesn't need it repeating and repeating. It loses its value. If she keeps asking and yet not doing, write it down for her and just tell her to refer to the piece of paper.

Basically, you just need to take a respectful stance and not budge til you have all you need from her to show you she is truly committed and is never going to fu*k you about like this again. Everything she gives she gains the rewards of you. She gives nothing, she gets nothing. 

Of course, it is easy to see clearly from the outside looking in.


----------



## Remains

turnera said:


> I ask because you talk about her as though you just can't understand why the woman you know and love could do this. But if you read up on it, it will make much more sense. Why do you think we say that a cheater turns into an alien? Or a drug addict? Because it turns them into some sort of crazy person you don't recognise.


I read loads of articles on lying, deceitful behaviour. The most useful I found were on manipulation. This has helped me in all areas of life. Manipulation and projection. And of course cheating behaviour. I read many articles online before I found this forum. Some really good websites with lots of really good articles. And then off course reading all the other threads, other people's stories that mirrored my own and it was so clear to see when the situation was someone else's. I read so much stuff and it helped me enormously.

It also took time though. It was months before my fog and confusion lifted. I would suggest that given time, yours will too. You are still very early in the process. Though if she is not showing remorse, you really need to take the hard stance and remove yourself from the situation that is causing you so much pain. If she wants this, you will know. Really know. Without the doubt.


----------



## poida

Remains said:


> I think if I had taken a hard stance right at the beginning it would have been the most positive thing I could have done. But I kept getting sucked back in again by empty words and loving gestures. The actions were never there. Only ever hints of them to give enough hope... but nothing real. All a facade of giving enough to get me back and nothing continuing after he got what he wanted. I took the easy route every time. But the harder and more painful route in the long run. Very negative.
> 
> You need to decide what you want and need from a relationship... not just with her, with anyone. Write the list of what you need for her to fix it and what you need in general. And stick to it. Stick to your guns. If her coming to the house is based on fixing things, let her come over. Boundaries in place though so you both stay on topic. If she comes over and isn't fixing, ask her to leave and be harder on the situation next time.
> 
> MC is only useful if it is fixing things and if the issues are being dealt with. If she is not embracing it, cancel. And don't go back til she is saying the right things to you so you know she 'gets it' and truly wishes to fix it.
> 
> As for reading the guide with her, again, if she wishes to. Wants to. What's the point if its all coming from you and she isn't embracing it! You are only opening yourself up for more heartache and disappointment.
> 
> Move the remainder of her stuff out if you want... doesn't really matter at this stage. Though if it is clear that the move is permanent and she is never going to 'get it' then yes, of course. Move it all out. The more ties that are cut when it is clear there is no moving forward makes it easier to move forward without her.
> 
> Visiting the house... tell her only to come over if she needs to. Note 'need'. If that need is the dog, fine. If the need is to make effort... real effort to fix your relationship, fine also.
> 
> Only tell her what you need if she asks. You have told her already, she doesn't need it repeating and repeating. It loses its value. If she keeps asking and yet not doing, write it down for her and just tell her to refer to the piece of paper.
> 
> Basically, you just need to take a respectful stance and not budge til you have all you need from her to show you she is truly committed and is never going to fu*k you about like this again. Everything she gives she gains the rewards of you. She gives nothing, she gets nothing.
> 
> Of course, it is easy to see clearly from the outside looking in.


Wow. Thanks a lot. This has helped more than you can imagine. When in the fog, sometimes you just need to be told the direction.

I really resonate with your comments so thank you so much.


----------



## poida

Remains said:


> I read loads of articles on lying, deceitful behaviour. The most useful I found were on manipulation. This has helped me in all areas of life. Manipulation and projection. And of course cheating behaviour. I read many articles online before I found this forum. Some really good websites with lots of really good articles. And then off course reading all the other threads, other people's stories that mirrored my own and it was so clear to see when the situation was someone else's. I read so much stuff and it helped me enormously.
> 
> It also took time though. It was months before my fog and confusion lifted. I would suggest that given time, yours will too. You are still very early in the process. Though if she is not showing remorse, you really need to take the hard stance and remove yourself from the situation that is causing you so much pain. If she wants this, you will know. Really know. Without the doubt.


I will write a list on the weekend and also an action list. I will try to put dates against them and I will work hard to stick to it. I think a list will help me enormously.

Perhaps the list can have a fork in the road. Things to do right up to the fork, and then a branch point for me and a branch point for her.


----------



## Remains

Write what you need and visualise it. Make it so it's real and not just swimming thoughts.


----------



## poida

Hi Guys, 
Quick update.
Bought NMMNG and MMSLP and that alone feels good, something for myself.
Have still been in this place of intense limbo.
I definitely hear everybody's advice to move on in the back of my head and this is still fighting against the feelings I obviously still have for the WW. 
The internal battle is a ridiculous one and frustrates me even more.
We went to MC on Tuesday and we are in much the same place. She is unable to express her remorse. I am unwilling to budge on the remorse I need to see. Stalemate.
I had PC yesterday and we discussed the situation and a few things became obvious about me;
1. Emotionally, we are at different levels as people, and always have been. That is, at what level of emotion we interact with other people. When asked to put a number on it, I said I thought I was an 8 and she was 3.

2. I am a person who is either ALL IN, or ALL OUT, and lack of certainty in my life has always been stressful. In this situation, the limbo stalemate is causing me stress.

3. I have a need to "fix things". Everything can be fixed and quickly.

From these three observations, we have determined that MOVING ON for me means the WHOLE process of moving on, and immediately. That means putting the house up for sale tomorrow, moving her **** out on the weekend, filing for divorce tomorrow etc.

As it is still obvious that I am not prepared to MOVE ON in full right now, and I am also not prepared to take her back without the WHOLE COMPLETE remorse deal in advance, we have decided that in the mean time, we need to turn the volume down on the intensity of emotion, stress, analysis and hurt so that I can cope on a daily basis.

The idea is that at a lower level of stress and emotion I can focus on the other things in MY life, MY friends, MY work etc.

It also reduces the intensity of DEMAND that I am display to the WW, thus reducing the pressure on the REMORSE display. This should provide her with the opportunity to be able to show REMORSE properly without this overbearing pressure to do so that exists right now. And if she can't, or won't, then I have my answer.

I think whilst I have heard you all saying MOVE ON, my definition of it was to do everything at once, one big giant chop.

By turning down the volume on emotions, stress, analysis and hurt, it should allow me the stay out of the "fog", and allow me to function and live my life. And by living my life without a high level of stress, this IS effectively a form of moving on.

It will also allow some time to pass, and allow me to find a space where I can think more clearly and move toward some sort of decision on myself as to what to do.

In the mean time, continue PC and assess the merit of MC on a week by week basis depending on the WW's interaction.


----------



## poida

And boy do I already feel much less stressed.
It is amazing that you can tell yourself to "chill out mate".
Just let it be, you don't have to control it right now, just live your life and enjoy it.
I guess it is the one thing that you really can influence so completely, and it is nice just to realise that I do have control over something.
I feel relaxed and happy and I definitely did not expect this.


----------



## jack.c




----------



## bfree

poida said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Quick update.
> 
> Bought NMMNG and MMSLP and that alone feels good, something for myself.
> 
> Have still been in this place of intense limbo.
> 
> I definitely hear everybody's advice to move on in the back of my head and this is still fighting against the feelings I obviously still have for the WW.
> 
> The internal battle is a ridiculous one and frustrates me even more.
> 
> We went to MC on Tuesday and we are in much the same place. She is unable to express her remorse. I am unwilling to budge on the remorse I need to see. Stalemate.
> 
> I had PC yesterday and we discussed the situation and a few things became obvious about me;
> 
> 1. Emotionally, we are at different levels as people, and always have been. That is, at what level of emotion we interact with other people. When asked to put a number on it, I said I thought I was an 8 and she was 3.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. I am a person who is either ALL IN, or ALL OUT, and lack of certainty in my life has always been stressful. In this situation, the limbo stalemate is causing me stress.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. I have a need to "fix things". Everything can be fixed and quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> From these three observations, we have determined that MOVING ON for me means the WHOLE process of moving on, and immediately. That means putting the house up for sale tomorrow, moving her **** out on the weekend, filing for divorce tomorrow etc.
> 
> 
> 
> As it is still obvious that I am not prepared to MOVE ON in full right now, and I am also not prepared to take her back without the WHOLE COMPLETE remorse deal in advance, we have decided that in the mean time, we need to turn the volume down on the intensity of emotion, stress, analysis and hurt so that I can cope on a daily basis.
> 
> 
> 
> The idea is that at a lower level of stress and emotion I can focus on the other things in MY life, MY friends, MY work etc.
> 
> 
> 
> It also reduces the intensity of DEMAND that I am display to the WW, thus reducing the pressure on the REMORSE display. This should provide her with the opportunity to be able to show REMORSE properly without this overbearing pressure to do so that exists right now. And if she can't, or won't, then I have my answer.
> 
> 
> 
> I think whilst I have heard you all saying MOVE ON, my definition of it was to do everything at once, one big giant chop.
> 
> 
> 
> By turning down the volume on emotions, stress, analysis and hurt, it should allow me the stay out of the "fog", and allow me to function and live my life. And by living my life without a high level of stress, this IS effectively a form of moving on.
> 
> 
> 
> It will also allow some time to pass, and allow me to find a space where I can think more clearly and move toward some sort of decision on myself as to what to do.
> 
> 
> 
> In the mean time, continue PC and assess the merit of MC on a week by week basis depending on the WW's interaction.



What you are describing is the 180 and many of us advised you to do that ASAP in order to protect yourself from the roller coaster of emotions and the drama.


----------



## poida

Well I didn't take a 180 to be that. To me a 180 was ALL OUT.
Either way, I'm coping now which is what matters.


----------



## poida

Hi Guys/Gals,
Things aren't going well. 
She seems to be taking an aggressive approach now.
My read on it is that because I'm not crawling back to her, she is doing all she can to force me into submission, trick me into guilt.
It isn't working. When I do talk to her on the phone, I'm sticking to my need for her to show proper remorse before we can move forward.

She is now saying things like;

That I don't love her, that I haven't even asked her what she is doing for her Birthday (tomorrow), that I continually make this about me and my need for her to make a fake apology to make me feel better. She isn't going to speak to me about this anymore. She has already spoken to me about this in 4 counselling sessions but it is never enough for me. That she will always be the person that cheated on me and destroyed my life and I will always be the one wanting her to feel worse and worse about this behaviour and never move on. It will come up every time we disagree and fight and she cannot live like that. She does not believe that I love her nor want to make this work. That I am only interested in making myself feel better and for everyone around me to feel sorry for me.

I just said that none of that way true and she knows it. Unfortunately I did lose my temper, but the b*tch is pushing my buttons. I yelled back at her that she wouldn't know what a f*cking apology sounds like. The best response would have been nothing.

SO. The only thing I can take from this is that she isn't sorry at all. I think she thinks she did what she had to do (sleep with another man)because I wasn't there for her, supporting her, and why should she be sorry for that.

I mean what else can I possibly conclude!!!!!! This is ridiculous.

The fact we are close to the end now is becoming very stressful and I'm not sure what to do. I'm having melt downs every 12 hours.

The last lingering thing I have holding me here is that everything she has said is in fact true. That she can't open up and deal with what happened until we are friends and more intimate again.

But where does that leave me as a man? A piece of ****, that can be cheated on, and then have to sack up, put aside my feelings of betrayal and hurt to support HER and be friends with HER before she can work on US?

Wow. It sounds even more ridiculous when I put it in writing. I must be f*cked in the head if I am even considering this to be a situation I should be trying to resolve. It is unresolvable. It is ridiculous. She is never going to get it. I am f*cking my head over everyday for someone who has no interest in my feelings. I must be seriously stupid.

But I am hurting so badly. This is my marriage and it meant a lot to me. I need to accept that she is what she is and not a fantasy from the past. I just can't believe it, I just can't believe this is who she is now. Someone who was so compatible, so loving, so beautiful. It really kills me that this has happened to me when I thought we had such a promising life together.

I'm completely numb. I feel like I just need to be told what to do. I'm totally f*cked in the head.


----------



## TRy

poida said:


> that I continually make this about me and my need for her to make a fake apology to make me feel better.


 Her saying that it would be a "fake apology" is her telling you in no uncertain terms that she is not even a little bit sorry that she cheated on you. It is also her telling you that she will cheat again if she wants to because she does not value her marraige vows to you.



poida said:


> She isn't going to speak to me about this anymore. She has already spoken to me about this in 4 counselling sessions but it is never enough for me.





poida said:


> It will come up every time we disagree and fight and she cannot live like that.


 This is her demanding that you accept your role as a cuckhold, and that you rug sweep this immediately as a condition of your marraige to her. 



poida said:


> That I am only interested in making myself feel better and for everyone around me to feel sorry for me.


 This is her telling you that she has no respect for you because she thinks that your a just whiner that is all talk and no action.



poida said:


> But where does that leave me as a man? A piece of ****, that can be cheated on, and then have to sack up, put aside my feelings of betrayal and hurt to support HER and be friends with HER before she can work on US?


 It leaves you as a cuckhold that she does not respect as a man. She cannot love someone that she does not respect, and she clearly has lost all respect for you. At its core, love requires that you have empathy for the person that you love. Her lack of empathy for you throughout this process, proves that she does not love you. There is nothing there anymore, why are you still in this marraige? 

I am sorry that you are here. You did nothing to deserve being cheating on. You must ask yourself though if your actions (or inaction) thus far make it such that you deserve her lack of respect?


----------



## LongWalk

> I just said that none of that way true and she knows it. Unfortunately I did *lose my temper*, but the b*tch is pushing my buttons. I yelled back at her that she wouldn't know what a f*cking apology sounds like. The best response would have been nothing.


This is not good for your relationship. It will make less likely to address her issues. She will feel insecure and lose motivation. But she was having trouble doing the right things anyways.

If you feel that you should be more accomodating, you can meet with her and talk. Listen to her. Repeat what she saying back to you. Don't make threats about your relationship.

But at the end of the day she is 100% right that you do not want a fake apology. You want a real one.


----------



## manfromlamancha

*"My how the worm begins to turn
When will the actress ever learn ?"*
Andrew Lloyd-Webber/Tim Rice


----------



## happyman64

Poida

Detach.

You need the space, especially if she is pushing your buttons.

Wish her a happy bday.

Detach. Detach.

And then really think about what you want out of life because your future may not include her.

HM


----------



## turnera

Just back off for now. Text her "Happy Birthday" and do nothing else. This is her consequence (not being treated like a queen on her birthday) and she needs to experience it. Let her come out the other end, the day after her birthday, finally understanding that she hurt you badly enough to send you away. MAYBE that will be enough to get her to shift. Maybe not. Either way, kissing her butt will not work, and now you know it. So you're ahead.


----------



## Nucking Futs

TRy said:


> Her saying that it would be a "fake apology" is her telling you in no uncertain terms that she is not even a little bit sorry that she cheated on you. It is also her telling you that she will cheat again if she wants to because she does not value her marraige vows to you.
> 
> This is her demanding that you accept your role as a cuckhold, and that you rug sweep this immediately as a condition of your marraige to her.
> 
> This is her telling you that she has no respect for you because she thinks that your a just whiner that is all talk and no action.
> 
> It leaves you as a cuckhold that she does not respect as a man. She cannot love someone that she does not respect, and she clearly has lost all respect for you. At its core, love requires that you have empathy for the person that you love. Her lack of empathy for you throughout this process, proves that she does not love you. There is nothing there anymore, why are you still in this marraige?
> 
> I am sorry that you are here. You did nothing to deserve being cheating on. You must ask yourself though if your actions (or inaction) thus far make it such that you deserve her lack of respect?


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Just stop trying to R with her and go full speed on divorce. The sooner you get clear of her the sooner you can heal.


----------



## Thound

Dump her sorry azz.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carmen ohio

poida said:


> Hi Guys/Gals,
> *Things aren't going well. *
> She seems to be taking an aggressive approach now.
> My read on it is that because I'm not crawling back to her, she is doing all she can to force me into submission, trick me into guilt.
> It isn't working. When I do talk to her on the phone, I'm sticking to my need for her to show proper remorse before we can move forward.
> 
> She is now saying things like;
> 
> That I don't love her, that I haven't even asked her what she is doing for her Birthday (tomorrow), that I continually make this about me and my need for her to make a fake apology to make me feel better. She isn't going to speak to me about this anymore. She has already spoken to me about this in 4 counselling sessions but it is never enough for me. That she will always be the person that cheated on me and destroyed my life and I will always be the one wanting her to feel worse and worse about this behaviour and never move on. It will come up every time we disagree and fight and she cannot live like that. She does not believe that I love her nor want to make this work. That I am only interested in making myself feel better and for everyone around me to feel sorry for me.
> 
> I just said that none of that way true and she knows it. Unfortunately I did lose my temper, but the b*tch is pushing my buttons. I yelled back at her that she wouldn't know what a f*cking apology sounds like. The best response would have been nothing.
> 
> SO. The only thing I can take from this is that she isn't sorry at all. I think she thinks she did what she had to do (sleep with another man)because I wasn't there for her, supporting her, and why should she be sorry for that.
> 
> I mean what else can I possibly conclude!!!!!! *This is ridiculous.*
> 
> The fact we are close to the end now is becoming very stressful and I'm not sure what to do. I'm having melt downs every 12 hours.
> 
> The last lingering thing I have holding me here is that everything she has said is in fact true. That she can't open up and deal with what happened until we are friends and more intimate again.
> 
> But where does that leave me as a man? A piece of ****, that can be cheated on, and then have to sack up, put aside my feelings of betrayal and hurt to support HER and be friends with HER before she can work on US?
> 
> *Wow. It sounds even more ridiculous when I put it in writing. I must be f*cked in the head if I am even considering this to be a situation I should be trying to resolve. It is unresolvable. It is ridiculous. She is never going to get it. I am f*cking my head over everyday for someone who has no interest in my feelings. I must be seriously stupid.*
> 
> But I am hurting so badly. This is my marriage and it meant a lot to me. *I need to accept that she is what she is and not a fantasy from the past. I just can't believe it, I just can't believe this is who she is now. Someone who was so compatible, so loving, so beautiful. It really kills me that this has happened to me when I thought we had such a promising life together.*
> 
> I'm completely numb. I feel like* I just need to be told what to do.* I'm totally f*cked in the head.


poida,

Actually, things are going very well.

The reason you feel so badly is that you are finally seeing your WW for what she really is and beginning to realize that everything you wanted from her is not going to happen.

You have just taken the "red pill" and it has side affects. From Wikipedia:

"The *red pill* and its opposite, the *blue pill*, are pop culture symbols representing the choice between embracing the sometimes painful truth of reality (red pill) and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)."

It's obvious what is happening; you've said it yourself. Until now, she could count on your strong desire to R to allow her to escape her responsibility to demonstrate remorse. Now that you are pulling away, she realizes that remorse is required but, since she doesn't feel remorse, she also realizes that she is losing you. So, her solution is to try to intimidate you back into submission.

And, yes, it is ridiculous. But what would be even more ridiculous, as you also perceive, would be for you to try to go back to being the blue pill man who tolerated her cheating ways and lack of remorse. The trouble with taking the red pill is that you can't forget the truths you have learned.

As for your not being able to believe who she really is, that is just a lingering side-effect of your previous blue pill existence. It will wear off in time.

And, no, you don't need to be told what to do. You know what you have to do. The question is, will you summon up the courage to do it or will you cave in to your blue pill emotions and settle for a life of misery and shame?

Personally, I think you're going to make it.


P.S.: I would ignore turnera's advice to wish her a "happy birthday." That would be an act of submission. Ignore her and, if she complains, tell her that you only wish happy birthday to people who truly care about you. If that p*sses her off, it's only more evidence that she is not and is never likely to be remorseful for what she's done.

turnera, sorry, to disagree with you you twice in one day.


----------



## turnera

No worries. I could see it either way. I would just say it because I believe in being a civil human being and I would would say it to ANYone who was having a birthday.


----------



## carmen ohio

turnera said:


> No worries. I could see it either way. I would just say it because I believe in being a civil human being and I would would say it to ANYone who was having a birthday.


OK, I'll look for your "Happy Birthday" PM on December 6th.


----------



## Remains

Hi Poida, glad you are posting. Been thinking about you and how you are doing. Was thinking I should message you the last few days...



poida said:


> Hi Guys/Gals,
> Things aren't going well.
> She seems to be taking an aggressive approach now.
> My read on it is that because I'm not crawling back to her, she is doing all she can to force me into submission, trick me into guilt.
> It isn't working. When I do talk to her on the phone, I'm sticking to my need for her to show proper remorse before we can move forward.


 You are correct. The nice stance is not working for her and so the next phase is to do the nasty bit. It is just how it is, just like what we do with them. The nice doesn't work, so then do the not so nice. Except that she is in the wrong and therefore she is clutching at straws and not thinking about her actions truly and deeply. The ignoring of this behaviour will bring on the next phase.... if it is in fact actually there.... which will be more thought on her actions and the 'oh sh1t, this isn't working' moment and so thinking more of her behaviour in a more real way.



poida said:


> She is now saying things like;
> 
> That I don't love her, that I haven't even asked her what she is doing for her Birthday (tomorrow), that I continually make this about me and my need for her to make a fake apology to make me feel better.


 Say thanks for the fake apology. I get it. And hey, sorry for it not being all about you, how can I fix that for you?


poida said:


> She isn't going to speak to me about this anymore. She has already spoken to me about this in 4 counselling sessions but it is never enough for me. How generous of her.


 Oh, lucky you. You are very lucky to have a wife willing to put this much effort into fixing the betrayal of you! 


poida said:


> That she will always be the person that cheated on me and destroyed my life and I will always be the one wanting her to feel worse and worse about this behaviour and never move on. It will come up every time we disagree and fight and she cannot live like that. She does not believe that I love her nor want to make this work. That I am only interested in making myself feel better and for everyone around me to feel sorry for me.


 Exactly! The nice isn't working...i.e. You are not just taking her back and accepting her sweeping It all under the carpet..therefore, shut the fvck up and accept me because I...yes I, ....don't want to deal with the sh1t YOU are giving me (because I can't deal with facing the sh1t I created)! And so I will throw anything and everything at you to MAKE you back down. You have the problem, you don't love me, I will throw this crap at you because you are the one who has to back down. She is throwing this stuff at you to make you back down. That is it. 

This is manipulation Poida. This is total manipulation. She is turning all faults around so they become yours. It takes the heat off her. It makes her problem yours. It makes her inability to deal with the sh1t she created into a problem you are now creating.... and sorry, what exactly is it? Any problems you had in your marriage were to sort out in your marriage. She took it outside that. Therefore, this needs sorting first and foremost. Problems that were there before need to be sorted once this issue is moving forwards.

She is doing the gaslighting very well... why? Because you are now questioning yourself. 

I may have put answers above, but they are answers to a reasonable person in an unreasonable argument. You are right. She doesn't get it if she is saying those things to you. She wants you to just leave it be. You are out of order because you are not.

Just a thought...what kind of person is it that does these things and then behaves like this? Do we really want to be with someone who cannot even say 'sh1t I'm really sorry ' again and again for the bad behaviour and the pain they inflicted? Really?



poida said:


> I just said that none of that way true and she knows it. Unfortunately I did lose my temper, but the b*tch is pushing my buttons. I yelled back at her that she wouldn't know what a f*cking apology sounds like. The best response would have been nothing


Yes, but hey, you need to see her behaviour as it's happening. And that takes time and practice.



poida said:


> SO. The only thing I can take from this is that she isn't sorry at all. I think she thinks she did what she had to do (sleep with another man)because I wasn't there for her, supporting her, and why should she be sorry for that.
> 
> I mean what else can I possibly conclude!!!!!! This is ridiculous.
> 
> The fact we are close to the end now is becoming very stressful and I'm not sure what to do. I'm having melt downs every 12 hours.


 You are correct. Just hold tight. Take one day at a time...... this time will pass. I am way further than you in the realisation and still feel very sad that this is just never going to happen. Save yourself 2 1/2 years! Or more. I hope less. Remember, this hard stance will see you through. Tough love not just for you but for her. Like you would a child. 




poida said:


> The last lingering thing I have holding me here is that everything she has said is in fact true. That she can't open up and deal with what happened until we are friends and more intimate again.


 No! This won't help her. Think of her as a child who needs pulling into line. Her manipulations are not true. She is an adult..... the consequences of her being with another man is not to get all the love from the man shebetrayed to make her feel better! The only way she will learn is if she had to work at gaining back your love and trust.

No one values that that they can throw away easily and regain back so easily. The only thing that is valued is that that is easily lost and difficult to gain. She is throwing that sh1t out to you only because she thinks you will buy it.




poida said:


> But where does that leave me as a man? A piece of ****, that can be cheated on, and then have to sack up, put aside my feelings of betrayal and hurt to support HER and be friends with HER before she can work on US?
> 
> Wow. It sounds even more ridiculous when I put it in writing. I must be f*cked in the head if I am even considering this to be a situation I should be trying to resolve. It is unresolvable. It is ridiculous. She is never going to get it. I am f*cking my head over everyday for someone who has no interest in my feelings. I must be seriously stupid.
> 
> But I am hurting so badly. This is my marriage and it meant a lot to me. I need to accept that she is what she is and not a fantasy from the past. I just can't believe it, I just can't believe this is who she is now. Someone who was so compatible, so loving, so beautiful. It really kills me that this has happened to me when I thought we had such a promising life together.
> 
> I'm completely numb. I feel like I just need to be told what to do. I'm totally f*cked in the head.


Try and see that what you are doing IS working. If out wasn't,she wouldn't be resorting to the anger and gaslighting stage. Keep going. You are on the right track. And it's working. If it wasn't working she would be walking off quietly.


----------



## turnera

If what you are doing wasn't working, she wouldn't be mad at you.


----------



## poida

Thanks everyone.

I spoke with my counsellor yesterday and I was about to consider setting aside my needs and being "friends" with her to allow her to find some stability and allow her to begin to open up and provide an opportunity for her to apologise properly. My counsellor thinks that her personality is such that she needs stability to open up and I agree. I told my dad and he want ape ****. I said it was something I needed to do. I didn't sleep at all last night. I woke up feeling sick with a knot in my gut. Everything in me is telling me not to do it. I did message her a happy birthday and she said thank you. I even bought her a present. Last night I asked her to come over Friday for dinner.

Now I come to work and I read your messages. They make so much sense...... Obviously.

The fog is a very confusing place. All logic goes out the window. I'm not too proud to admit I'm still so afraid of losing her. I know it is irrational, but it is how I feel. I hear Remains stories and warnings yet I just go ahead and take another blue pill. I guess I am addicted and I was just talking like an addict when I said I was off the blue pills.

I know in my heart that tough love is the only chance of a long term future for us where my needs will be met in the relationship. There is no other way.

I know that she does feel remorse and shame, but it is buried so deep, way down, and it is not going to surface whilst there are layers and layers of protective barriers in place to prevent her from ever going there. It is going to take an earthquake to break apart those protective layers. It is going to require loss and pain. 

Thanks for the comment about the current level of pain in me representing progress. It really helps to associate progress with pain. A bit like a marathon. It is going to get harder and harder until the finish, but win or lose, the pain will go away. 

Thanks for all the advice. It helps a lot. It makes me stronger. It is real advice from people who have no time to pad the truth.

I am questioning the roads that my counsellor allows me go down in exploring my emotions. I suppose it is not their job to disagree with you, just to ask what you want and to explore the feelings associated with that action. Sometimes the best advise is from someone not involved and with no bias.

I think I will bring her over on Friday, but instead of being friends, it will be to say;
- that I know I invited her over to try to be friends and I meant that at the time but I am too hurt to be that support for her right now,
- that I do love her and it makes me sad we are in this situation,
- that despite all my feelings for her, I simply can't be friends with someone who can't empathise with me,
- that I can't be in a relationship with someone who isn't sorry or can't show that they are sorry properly for hurting their partner at the deepest level,
- that I am a good man and I deserve respect,
- that I understand what happened in our marriage, that I accept my contribution to the failure of the marriage,
- that I am willing to work on our marriage to prevent the same chain of events in the future but I need to know she cares enough for me to help me build trust with her again,
- that I care for her, but that she is pushing me further away by not acknowledging the pain she has cause me,
- that I am a very forgiving man who is more than capable of forgiving and forgetting,
- that I do not carry the past with me into the future,
- that I am sorry for bringing her here on the premise of trying to be friends and telling her I can't do it, but I am just too hurt.

I think the stability in her life is going to have to come from somewhere else. I can't offer it to her. It still pains me to say that.

As for the present I bought her (perfume). I don't know anymore. She can take it with her, it means nothing now.


----------



## poida

LongWalk said:


> This is not good for your relationship. It will make less likely to address her issues. She will feel insecure and lose motivation. But she was having trouble doing the right things anyways.
> 
> If you feel that you should be more accomodating, you can meet with her and talk. Listen to her. Repeat what she saying back to you. *Don't make threats about your relationship.*
> But at the end of the day she is 100% right that you do not want a fake apology. You want a real one.


OK, I think this is right in my situation.

Don't make threats. Just make it clear that I am the victim and I to hurt to be her support or her friend right now.

OK.


----------



## bandit.45

Did you grow up on Barry Manilow or something? I got a cavity reading that. 

Oh Poida .....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Did you grow up on Barry Manilow or something? I got a cavity reading that.
> 
> Oh Poida .....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Manilow? Huh?

You saying I'm hopeless romantic without a clue?


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I think the stability in her life is going to have to come from somewhere else. I can't offer it to her.


poida, haven't you figured this out yet? You never could. NObody can be someone ELSE'S stability. It has to come from within HER. 

For that, she'll likely need therapy. Lots and lots of therapy. And as long as you are trying to be there for her, she'll never feel the need for it.

Just as no one can fix YOU but you.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Manilow? Huh?
> 
> You saying I'm hopeless romantic without a clue?


No, a codependent, needy, beta male.

An alpha male wouldn't even be talking to her any more and would have moved on because she never showed remorse or tried to make up for what she did. He would respect himself too much to still be talking to her.

What books have you read so far? I don't remember.


----------



## poida

poida said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> I spoke with my counsellor yesterday and I was about to consider setting aside my needs and being "friends" with her to allow her to find some stability and allow her to begin to open up and provide an opportunity for her to apologise properly. My counsellor thinks that her personality is such that she needs stability to open up and I agree. I told my dad and he want ape ****. I said it was something I needed to do. I didn't sleep at all last night. I woke up feeling sick with a knot in my gut. Everything in me is telling me not to do it. I did message her a happy birthday and she said thank you. I even bought her a present. Last night I asked her to come over Friday for dinner.
> 
> Now I come to work and I read your messages. They make so much sense...... Obviously.
> 
> The fog is a very confusing place. All logic goes out the window. I'm not too proud to admit I'm still so afraid of losing her. I know it is irrational, but it is how I feel. I hear Remains stories and warnings yet I just go ahead and take another blue pill. I guess I am addicted and I was just talking like an addict when I said I was off the blue pills.
> 
> I know in my heart that tough love is the only chance of a long term future for us where my needs will be met in the relationship. There is no other way.
> 
> I know that she does feel remorse and shame, but it is buried so deep, way down, and it is not going to surface whilst there are layers and layers of protective barriers in place to prevent her from ever going there. It is going to take an earthquake to break apart those protective layers. It is going to require loss and pain.
> 
> Thanks for the comment about the current level of pain in me representing progress. It really helps to associate progress with pain. A bit like a marathon. It is going to get harder and harder until the finish, but win or lose, the pain will go away.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice. It helps a lot. It makes me stronger. It is real advice from people who have no time to pad the truth.
> 
> I am questioning the roads that my counsellor allows me go down in exploring my emotions. I suppose it is not their job to disagree with you, just to ask what you want and to explore the feelings associated with that action. Sometimes the best advise is from someone not involved and with no bias.
> 
> I think I will bring her over on Friday, but instead of being friends, it will be to say;
> - that I know I invited her over to try to be friends and I meant that at the time but I am too hurt to be that support for her right now,
> - that I do love her and it makes me sad we are in this situation,
> - that despite all my feelings for her, I simply can't be friends with someone who can't empathise with me,
> - that I can't be in a relationship with someone who isn't sorry or can't show that they are sorry properly for hurting their partner at the deepest level,
> - that I am a good man and I deserve respect,
> - that I understand what happened in our marriage, that I accept my contribution to the failure of the marriage,
> - that I am willing to work on our marriage to prevent the same chain of events in the future but I need to know she cares enough for me to help me build trust with her again,
> - that I care for her, but that she is pushing me further away by not acknowledging the pain she has cause me,
> - that I am a very forgiving man who is more than capable of forgiving and forgetting,
> - that I do not carry the past with me into the future,
> - that I am sorry for bringing her here on the premise of trying to be friends and telling her I can't do it, but I am just too hurt.
> 
> I think the stability in her life is going to have to come from somewhere else. I can't offer it to her. It still pains me to say that.
> 
> As for the present I bought her (perfume). I don't know anymore. She can take it with her, it means nothing now.


I just read this and it is he biggest load of crap I have every written.

Facts is I can't be her friend, her support, her partner or her husband until she is sorry and shows me that.

Lingering, calling, messaging is only delaying the pain she needs to go through to realise she f*cked up and I'm not going to crawl back.

I hate this god damn situation. It sucks balls.


----------



## turnera

Fill your spare time with bro stuff. You need some testosterone in your life. Go hunting, go play football, go get drunk, go to a strip club, just go do some guy stuff WITH some guys. You need to reacquaint yourself with what it's like to be a dude.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> poida, haven't you figured this out yet? You never could. NObody can be someone ELSE'S stability. It has to come from within HER.
> 
> For that, she'll likely need therapy. Lots and lots of therapy. And as long as you are trying to be there for her, she'll never feel the need for it.
> 
> Just as no one can fix YOU but you.


Yeah I know. You are right.

It's time to MOVE ON.

Think I'll just focus on getting the house subdivided and sold while I'm waiting for the 12 month requirement to submit divorce papers.

Take a trip overseas or something.


----------



## bandit.45

I agree with Turnera. You need to get out and get back in touch with your inner Tarzan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

poida said:


> You saying I'm hopeless romantic without a clue?


 When you say that you are a "hopeless romantic without a clue", in reading your thread, I doubt that "romantic" ever crossed anyone's mind. Say it again without the word "romantic" and you will be closer to the truth.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Fill your spare time with bro stuff. You need some testosterone in your life. Go hunting, go play football, go get drunk, go to a strip club, just go do some guy stuff WITH some guys. You need to reacquaint yourself with what it's like to be a dude.


Actually, I am a pretty blokey guy. I fish, surf, sail, play golf, play squash, go to the gym, I was at a bucks on Saturday. I'm a fairly masculine dresser.

I just seem to have this soft spot for this woman. Through my counselling I have learnt a lot about the role (or lack of) that my mother had in my life. That I don't love her, that she hasn't been a part of my life for a long time. I recognise I was filling this hole with my wife and hence my NEED for it. I get it, I understand it, but it is still there. It will take time to fill that hole.

My actions should make more sense to you now.

I am flying to the US next week, and I have booked a 12 day surfing trip with 11 other guys in indo for the end of Aril. Can't wait!

I think time away is probably the best thing I can do.


----------



## poida

TRy said:


> When you say that you are a "hopeless romantic without a clue", in reading your thread, I doubt that "romantic" ever crossed anyone's mind. Say it again without the word "romantic" and you will be closer to the truth.


I think Bill Burr's favourite expression probably applies here. 

Sh*t that guy is a legend.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

bandit.45 said:


> Did you grow up on Barry Manilow or something? I got a cavity reading that.
> 
> Oh Poida .....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> I just read this and it is he biggest load of crap I have every written.
> 
> Facts is I can't be her friend, her support, her partner or her husband until she is sorry and shows me that.
> 
> Lingering, calling, messaging is only delaying the pain she needs to go through to realise she f*cked up and I'm not going to crawl back.
> 
> I hate this god damn situation. It sucks balls.


It definitely sucks, but now you have the right attitude!

Keep us in the loop or drop a line if you hit a low...


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> No, a codependent, needy, beta male.
> 
> An alpha male wouldn't even be talking to her any more and would have moved on because she never showed remorse or tried to make up for what she did. He would respect himself too much to still be talking to her.
> 
> What books have you read so far? I don't remember.


Yes, of course you are right.

I'm still waiting for the two books you recommended to arrive. Should be here shortly.


----------



## turnera

I can't wait til you start reading them.


----------



## carmen ohio

poida said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> I spoke with my counsellor yesterday and I was about to consider setting aside my needs and being "friends" with her to allow her to find some stability and allow her to begin to open up and provide an opportunity for her to apologise properly. *My counsellor thinks that her personality is such that she needs stability to open up and I agree. I told my dad and he want ape ****. I said it was something I needed to do. I didn't sleep at all last night. I woke up feeling sick with a knot in my gut. Everything in me is telling me not to do it.* I did message her a happy birthday and she said thank you. I even bought her a present. Last night I asked her to come over Friday for dinner.
> 
> Now I come to work and I read your messages. They make so much sense...... Obviously.
> 
> The fog is a very confusing place. All logic goes out the window. *I'm not too proud to admit I'm still so afraid of losing her. I know it is irrational, but it is how I feel. I hear Remains stories and warnings yet I just go ahead and take another blue pill. I guess I am addicted and I was just talking like an addict when I said I was off the blue pills.*
> 
> *I know in my heart that tough love is the only chance of a long term future for us where my needs will be met in the relationship. There is no other way.*
> 
> I know that she does feel remorse and shame, but it is buried so deep, way down, and it is not going to surface whilst there are layers and layers of protective barriers in place to prevent her from ever going there. It is going to take an earthquake to break apart those protective layers. It is going to require loss and pain.
> 
> Thanks for the comment about the current level of pain in me representing progress. It really helps to associate progress with pain. A bit like a marathon. It is going to get harder and harder until the finish, but win or lose, the pain will go away.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice. It helps a lot. It makes me stronger. It is real advice from people who have no time to pad the truth.
> 
> I am questioning the roads that my counsellor allows me go down in exploring my emotions. I suppose it is not their job to disagree with you, just to ask what you want and to explore the feelings associated with that action. Sometimes the best advise is from someone not involved and with no bias.
> 
> *I think I will bring her over on Friday, but instead of being friends, it will be to say;*
> - that I know I invited her over to try to be friends and I meant that at the time but I am too hurt to be that support for her right now,
> *- that I do love her and it makes me sad we are in this situation,*
> - that despite all my feelings for her, I simply can't be friends with someone who can't empathise with me,
> - that I can't be in a relationship with someone who isn't sorry or can't show that they are sorry properly for hurting their partner at the deepest level,
> - that I am a good man and I deserve respect,*
> - that I understand what happened in our marriage, that I accept my contribution to the failure of the marriage,
> - that I am willing to work on our marriage to prevent the same chain of events in the future* but I need to know she cares enough for me to help me build trust with her again,*
> - that I care for her,* but that she is pushing me further away by not acknowledging the pain she has cause me,*
> - that I am a very forgiving man who is more than capable of forgiving and forgetting,
> - that I do not carry the past with me into the future,
> - that I am sorry* for bringing her here on the premise of trying to be friends and telling her I can't do it, but I am just too hurt.
> 
> *I think the stability in her life is going to have to come from somewhere else. I can't offer it to her.* It still pains me to say that.
> 
> As for the present I bought her (perfume). I don't know anymore. She can take it with her, it means nothing now.





poida said:


> *I just read this and it is he biggest load of crap I have every written.*
> 
> Facts is I can't be her friend, her support, her partner or her husband until she is sorry and shows me that.
> 
> *Lingering, calling, messaging is only delaying the pain she needs to go through to realise she f*cked up and I'm not going to crawl back.*
> 
> I hate this god damn situation. It sucks balls.


poida,

Go back and read what you wrote in post # 469. There you expressed the reality of your situation. Here's what you said:



> She seems to be taking an aggressive approach now.
> My read on it is that because I'm not crawling back to her, she is doing all she can to force me into submission, trick me into guilt.





> The only thing I can take from this is that she isn't sorry at all. I think she thinks she did what she had to do (sleep with another man) because I wasn't there for her, supporting her, and why should she be sorry for that.
> 
> I mean what else can I possibly conclude!!!!!! This is ridiculous.





> But where does that leave me as a man? A piece of ****, that can be cheated on, and then have to sack up, put aside my feelings of betrayal and hurt to support HER and be friends with HER before she can work on US?
> 
> Wow. It sounds even more ridiculous when I put it in writing. I must be f*cked in the head if I am even considering this to be a situation I should be trying to resolve. It is unresolvable. It is ridiculous. She is never going to get it. I am f*cking my head over everyday for someone who has no interest in my feelings. I must be seriously stupid.





> I need to accept that she is what she is and not a fantasy from the past.


Start with _reality_ and then decide what is the best way forward. You are torn between two futures, one in which you stay with her in the hope that will become the woman you want her to be (what I've highlighted above in *black*) and one in which you move forward on your own and leave it to her to demonstrate what she kind of woman she is and what she is capable of (what I've highlighted in *r**ed*).

Your head and your heart are pulling you in different directions. You need to decide which you are going to follow. The sooner you do this, the sooner you will have your answer as to whether she is capable of demonstrating remorse.

Frankly, I think it matters little which you follow. If your heart, I believe that, in time, you will realize you made a mistake and will end up back in the red pill world. If your head, I think you will learn more quickly what she is and isn't capable of.

But you need to choose, and the sooner the better for the both of you.


----------



## poida

carmen ohio said:


> poida,
> 
> Go back and read what you wrote in post # 469. There you expressed the reality of your situation. Here's what you said:
> 
> Start with _reality_ and then decide what is the best way forward. You are torn between two futures, one in which you stay with her in the hope that will become the woman you want her to be (what I've highlighted above in *black*) and one in which you move forward on your own and leave it to her to demonstrate what she kind of woman she is and what she is capable of (what I've highlighted in *r**ed*).
> 
> Your head and your heart are pulling you in different directions. You need to decide which you are going to follow. The sooner you do this, the sooner you will have your answer as to whether she is capable of demonstrating remorse.
> 
> Frankly, I think it matters little which you follow. If your heart, I believe that, in time, you will realize you made a mistake and will end up back in the red pill world. If your head, I think you will learn more quickly what she is and isn't capable of.
> 
> But you need to choose, and the sooner the better for the both of you.


Well, when I'm happiest and thinking most clearly, my head is winning. So I guess I have my answer.


----------



## jack.c

poida said:


> I just read this and it is he biggest load of crap I have every written.
> 
> Facts is I can't be her friend, her support, her partner or her husband until she is sorry and shows me that.
> 
> Lingering, calling, messaging is only delaying the pain she needs to go through to realise she f*cked up and I'm not going to crawl back.
> 
> I hate this god damn situation. It sucks balls.



I was'nt going to post anymore on your thread.... i only wanted to see how many times you wuold be inconsistent....
When I suggested (pages ago) you the same thing that you wrote, you called me "smart guy" in a sarcastic way.
I understand, but do not agree with what you've done so far. But its your life and who am I to try to change your doing?.
I just (from the bottom of my heart) wish that you finaly put in practice what you are saying, and stop hurting yourself over and over again. I apoligize if you still think that i'm wanting to be only "a smart guy".


----------



## poida

jack.c said:


> I was'nt going to post anymore on your thread.... i only wanted to see how many times you wuold be inconsistent....
> When I suggested (pages ago) you the same thing that you wrote, you called me "smart guy" in a sarcastic way.
> I understand, but do not agree with what you've done so far. But its your life and who am I to try to change your doing?.
> I just (from the bottom of my heart) wish that you finaly put in practice what you are saying, and stop hurting yourself over and over again. I apoligize if you still think that i'm wanting to be only "a smart guy".


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

I do appreciate the concern. 
I was in a difficult place and I still am. 
I am beginning to see the harm this is causing me and it is pushing me. It is unfortunate that some of us here need to be hurt the point if breaking before we help ourselves but that is who some if us are. Some will think it is sad, pathetic, hopeless, but it is there for a reason. 
I am a tryer, I never give up, I consider the needs of others. These are good things but it is easy to neglect myself as well. 
Sorry if I rejected your comments but this is the process I need to go through. If it had all started from the beginning again, I still would do it all again. For me, I cannot live with myself unless I have exhausted every possible solution to this situation. I never want to live with regret. It is something I can't cope with. Personal hurt is less painful than that.
So, here I am, moving closer to the end of my long journey. Not regretting anything I have done.
Thanks all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> I do appreciate the concern.
> I was in a difficult place and I still am.
> I am beginning to see the harm this is causing me and it is pushing me. It is unfortunate that some of us here need to be hurt the point if breaking before we help ourselves but that is who some if us are. Some will think it is sad, pathetic, hopeless, but it is there for a reason.
> I am a tryer, I never give up, I consider the needs of others. These are good things but it is easy to neglect myself as well.
> Sorry if I rejected your comments but this is the process I need to go through. If it had all started from the beginning again, I still would do it all again. For me, I cannot live with myself unless I have exhausted every possible solution to this situation. I never want to live with regret. It is something I can't cope with. Personal hurt is less painful than that.
> So, here I am, moving closer to the end of my long journey. Not regretting anything I have done.
> Thanks all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You will reach a point where you will be sick and tired of being sick an tired.
But only you know when.
Peace.


----------



## Remains

I think you have a few swings and roundabouts to go on yet before you will really be there. Try and prepare for those weak moments before they happen. 

Your 1st reply was definitely weak. By telling her all those things it shows her you are thinking about her and ready to fall back in to her arms again, engage in the crap she's feeding you. You came to your senses pretty quickly. It was good to see. Hold on to that. The weakness will again hit you, but ride through it and get to the point of strength again. Just like you did. I hope you cancelled the meal on Friday.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> I do appreciate the concern.
> I was in a difficult place and I still am.
> I am beginning to see the harm this is causing me and it is pushing me. It is unfortunate that some of us here need to be hurt the point if breaking before we help ourselves but that is who some if us are. Some will think it is sad, pathetic, hopeless, but it is there for a reason.
> I am a tryer, I never give up, I consider the needs of others. These are good things but it is easy to neglect myself as well.
> Sorry if I rejected your comments but this is the process I need to go through. If it had all started from the beginning again, I still would do it all again. For me, I cannot live with myself unless I have exhausted every possible solution to this situation. I never want to live with regret. It is something I can't cope with. Personal hurt is less painful than that.
> So, here I am, moving closer to the end of my long journey. Not regretting anything I have done.
> Thanks all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people really do have to learn the hard way. The thing is, you WILL look back on this one day and you will wonder what the hell took you so long to move one and detach. You will be kicking yourself in the ass. You will have the "WTF was I thinking?" moment.

We've been there, done that.


----------



## turnera

If you want to feel better, go read Lifescript's thread.


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> If you want to feel better, go read Lifescript's thread.


I was starting to think I was.


----------



## turnera

I should say the 'last' part of Lifescript's thread covering his 3-year foray here, since he's deleted the previous parts of it, when he got tired of us telling him to ditch the mean, spiteful, conniving woman he somehow couldn't get enough of.


----------



## bandit.45

Oh man , I was just thinking about how similar Poida is to Script and you all beat me to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

Remains said:


> I think you have a few swings and roundabouts to go on yet before you will really be there. Try and prepare for those weak moments before they happen.
> 
> Your 1st reply was definitely weak. By telling her all those things it shows her you are thinking about her and ready to fall back in to her arms again, engage in the crap she's feeding you. You came to your senses pretty quickly. It was good to see. Hold on to that. The weakness will again hit you, but ride through it and get to the point of strength again. Just like you did. I hope you cancelled the meal on Friday.


Yeah, I cancelled this morning.

I said I'm not up for dinner Friday. I'm too hurt and in too much pain at the moment. I need people around me that can empathise with me. I need to move on, become strong again.

She replies with;
Hi P, I completely understand that you do not want to see me. if you change your mind you can contact me. Take care. If you need me to go to the wedding with you, I am happy to but understand if you decide not to go also. I am really worried about you. Xx

My reply;
By you understanding, is that you acknowledging that you aren't going to change, that you can't be that emotionally interactive person in the relationship? 
That you aren't ever going to be completely open and transparent about what happened? 
That you can't be the person who shows remorse and can't apologise unreservedly? 
I feel like I was married to someone I didn't even know and it kills me.

To this there was no response. To me, that means, yes, yes and yes.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> Yeah, I cancelled this morning.
> 
> I said I'm not up for dinner Friday. I'm too hurt and in too much pain at the moment. I need people around me that can empathise with me. I need to move on, become strong again.
> 
> She replies with;
> Hi P, I completely understand that you do not want to see me. if you change your mind you can contact me. Take care. If you need me to go to the wedding with you, I am happy to but understand if you decide not to go also. I am really worried about you. Xx
> 
> My reply;
> By you understanding, is that you acknowledging that you aren't going to change, that you can't be that emotionally interactive person in the relationship?
> That you aren't ever going to be completely open and transparent about what happened?
> That you can't be the person who shows remorse and can't apologise unreservedly?
> I feel like I was married to someone I didn't even know and it kills me.
> 
> To this there was no response. To me, that means, yes, yes and yes.


:slap:

All the emotionally needy crap youre spouting is undoing any positives accomplished by taking any kind of stand. You are a MAN damnit! Act like one. Take the bull by the horns and figuratively throw it to the ground.

Go pick a fight with a bear, drink beer with some lumberjacks or SOMETHING brother. A woman wants a man with hair on his chest who eats fire and pisses napalm- a woman wants a man who can make her FEEL for him as a man. It is encouraged to incorporate beta aspects of character like empathy and concern for others, but it is also necessary to be more than a female with testicles.

It is NOT killing you. You are here talking with us. You have value in your life outside of her. Sack up, head for divorce and do things to make yourself better each day.

Im out. Tough love brother...


----------



## Chaparral

poida said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> I spoke with my counsellor yesterday and I was about to consider setting aside my needs and being "friends" with her to allow her to find some stability and allow her to begin to open up and provide an opportunity for her to apologise properly. My counsellor thinks that her personality is such that she needs stability to open up and I agree. I told my dad and he want ape ****. I said it was something I needed to do. I didn't sleep at all last night. I woke up feeling sick with a knot in my gut. Everything in me is telling me not to do it. I did message her a happy birthday and she said thank you. I even bought her a present. Last night I asked her to come over Friday for dinner.
> 
> Now I come to work and I read your messages. They make so much sense...... Obviously.
> 
> The fog is a very confusing place. All logic goes out the window. I'm not too proud to admit I'm still so afraid of losing her. I know it is irrational, but it is how I feel. I hear Remains stories and warnings yet I just go ahead and take another blue pill. I guess I am addicted and I was just talking like an addict when I said I was off the blue pills.
> 
> I know in my heart that tough love is the only chance of a long term future for us where my needs will be met in the relationship. There is no other way.
> 
> I know that she does feel remorse and shame, but it is buried so deep, way down, and it is not going to surface whilst there are layers and layers of protective barriers in place to prevent her from ever going there. It is going to take an earthquake to break apart those protective layers. It is going to require loss and pain.
> 
> Thanks for the comment about the current level of pain in me representing progress. It really helps to associate progress with pain. A bit like a marathon. It is going to get harder and harder until the finish, but win or lose, the pain will go away.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice. It helps a lot. It makes me stronger. It is real advice from people who have no time to pad the truth.
> 
> I am questioning the roads that my counsellor allows me go down in exploring my emotions. I suppose it is not their job to disagree with you, just to ask what you want and to explore the feelings associated with that action. Sometimes the best advise is from someone not involved and with no bias.
> 
> I think I will bring her over on Friday, but instead of being friends, it will be to say;
> - that I know I invited her over to try to be friends and I meant that at the time but I am too hurt to be that support for her right now,
> - that I do love her and it makes me sad we are in this situation,
> - that despite all my feelings for her, I simply can't be friends with someone who can't empathise with me,
> - that I can't be in a relationship with someone who isn't sorry or can't show that they are sorry properly for hurting their partner at the deepest level,
> - that I am a good man and I deserve respect,
> - that I understand what happened in our marriage, that I accept my contribution to the failure of the marriage,
> - that I am willing to work on our marriage to prevent the same chain of events in the future but I need to know she cares enough for me to help me build trust with her again,
> - that I care for her, but that she is pushing me further away by not acknowledging the pain she has cause me,
> - that I am a very forgiving man who is more than capable of forgiving and forgetting,
> - that I do not carry the past with me into the future,
> - that I am sorry for bringing her here on the premise of trying to be friends and telling her I can't do it, but I am just too hurt.
> 
> I think the stability in her life is going to have to come from somewhere else. I can't offer it to her. It still pains me to say that.
> 
> As for the present I bought her (perfume). I don't know anymore. She can take it with her, it means nothing now.


This is so beta. Can you see James Bond, John Wayne, or Captain Kirk (lol). talking to a wavering wife?

Take her out for birthday, act like a man. Have a good time and dump her at her house. Let her know you could give a **** if she's on board or not.

Quit wringing your hands and man up. You ve got options, quit sweating the small stuff. She's not going to come begging after hearing you whine about your needs .


----------



## happyman64

Poida

When is this wedding?

Whose wedding is it?

And who will you be taking?

HM


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> Poida
> 
> When is this wedding?
> 
> Whose wedding is it?
> 
> And who will you be taking?
> 
> HM


Hopefully some hottie from [email protected] or [email protected] if they have that down there.:lol:


----------



## happyman64

tom67 said:


> Hopefully some hottie from [email protected] or [email protected] if they have that down there.:lol:


----------



## Chaparral

Did you read MMSLP linked to below?


----------



## tom67

Chaparral said:


> Did you read MMSLP linked to below?


And this link
A Voice for Men – Humanist Counter-Theory in the Age of Misandry


----------



## bandit.45

I'm not waiting around for this to become another Lifescript thread. Good luck Poida. You're going to need it. Bye bye.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

happyman64 said:


> Poida
> 
> When is this wedding?
> 
> Whose wedding is it?
> 
> And who will you be taking?
> 
> HM


Cousin.


----------



## poida

This sat and not taking anyone.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> I'm not waiting around for this to become another Lifescript thread. Good luck Poida. You're going to need it. Bye bye.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK, then, here is my last message to her.

"I am sick of all this emotional ****. I am a man and want to live like one. I am going to move on. I need a woman who can back me up and be completely honest and transparent with me. A woman who tells the truth and answers me when I ask a question. I can do this with you or without you. The question is, do you want to be that woman? It's a yes or no question at this point."


----------



## poida

Need a chest bump emoticon me thinks.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> OK, then, here is my last message to her.
> 
> "I am sick of all this emotional ****. I am a man and want to live like one. I am going to move on. I need a woman who can back me up and be completely honest and transparent with me. A woman who tells the truth and answers me when I ask a question. I can do this with you or without you. The question is, do you want to be that woman? It's a yes or no question at this point."


Then go dark on her if she doesn't reply and file, have her served at work.
Simple yet effective.


----------



## tom67

Bring someone to the wedding if you can, anyone doesn't matter it will get back to her and that would be a good thing.


----------



## turnera

Jesus Christ. That was almost as weak as the sappy LOVE LETTER you almost gave her on Friday.

Are you just freakin' incapable of going dark on her? Are you THAT WEAK?


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Jesus Christ. That was almost as weak as the sappy LOVE LETTER you almost gave her on Friday.
> 
> Are you just freakin' incapable of going dark on her? Are you THAT WEAK?


Whatever, it's a step forward for me. 

You don't expect me to find my animal overnight do you?


----------



## turnera

I at least expect you to say 'I won't accept this' to her.'


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> You don't expect me to find my animal overnight do you?


No. You probably require just a lil' more attempted b*ll breaking by your wife first.

But I think you're close...


----------



## Remains

poida said:


> Yeah, I cancelled this morning.
> 
> I said I'm not up for dinner Friday. I'm too hurt and in too much pain at the moment. I need people around me that can empathise with me. I need to move on, become strong again.
> 
> She replies with;
> Hi P, I completely understand that you do not want to see me. if you change your mind you can contact me. Take care. If you need me to go to the wedding with you, I am happy to but understand if you decide not to go also. I am really worried about you. Xx
> 
> My reply;
> By you understanding, is that you acknowledging that you aren't going to change, that you can't be that emotionally interactive person in the relationship?
> That you aren't ever going to be completely open and transparent about what happened?
> That you can't be the person who shows remorse and can't apologise unreservedly?
> I feel like I was married to someone I didn't even know and it kills me.
> 
> To this there was no response. To me, that means, yes, yes and yes.


You are right. The lack of response means there is no response. The way forward now is to go dark on her. Make the decision and stick to it. Only when she starts showing you something real should you begin to converse again. When she begins to really 'get it'. Which will be a tough road and relies on you being really focused when the weak moments come.

Go dark.


----------



## jack.c

Poida, you are a good man, and i understand that being strong scares you a bit... you are not sure if it's what you want. But you also need to understand that this is not only upon you....you cant pity her back!
She will just feel sorry for you, is that what you really want? wuold'nt you prefer her comming back VERY remorsful and willing to do whatever to seek your forgiveness? If so, how do think it will be possible being with her a beta nice guy?
Poida.... stop talking to her, and just get her served. Then you will see.


----------



## TRy

poida said:


> "I am sick of all this emotional ****. I am a man and want to live like one.


 No alpha actually needs to say that they are going to be alpha, thus that was a very beta statement. 



poida said:


> I am going to move on. I need a woman who can back me up and be completely honest and transparent with me. A woman who tells the truth and answers me when I ask a question. I can do this with you or without you. The question is, do you want to be that woman? It's a yes or no question at this point."


 First you say that you will move on (without her). Then in the very same paragraph you ask her if she wants to come. Don't you see how weak that is? In that statement you also just reaffirmed that no matter what she has done, if she just says that she is sorry you will forgive her and take her back. Again, don't you see how weak that is? What is scary is that this was you trying to project being strong with her.

May I recommend that you not say anything to her with out first running it by others on this thread. This way you get to let your emo side vent, and have a chance to get some sense knocked into you before you actually says such things again.


----------



## Nucking Futs

TRy said:


> No alpha actually needs to say that they are going to be alpha, thus that was a very beta statement.
> 
> First you say that you will move on (without her). Then in the very same paragraph you ask her if she wants to come. Don't you see how weak that is? In that statement you also just reaffirmed that no matter what she has done, if she just says that she is sorry you will forgive her and take her back. Again, don't you see how weak that is? What is scary is that this was you trying to project being strong with her.
> 
> *May I recommend that you not say anything to her with out first running it by others on this thread. This way you get to let your emo side vent, and have a chance to get some sense knocked into you before you actually says such things again.*


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Poida, you don't seem to have the instincts to react in a masculine manner. Every communication you've posted has been deferential to her. Where is your pride? When are you going to get up on your hind legs and say "who the f does she think she is treating _me_ like this?"

Your ww is communicating to her the way you're supposed to be communicating to her. You say something she doesn't like and what's her response? No response. You're supposed to be doing the 180 but she's doing this part of it better than you.

Here's how I would have edited your last. From this



> "I am sick of all this emotional ****. I am a man and want to live like one. I am going to move on. I need a woman who can back me up and be completely honest and transparent with me. A woman who tells the truth and answers me when I ask a question. I can do this with you or without you. The question is, do you want to be that woman? It's a yes or no question at this point."


to this 



> "I am sick of all this emotional ****. I am going to move on."


Here's a suggestion if you don't want to let us edit your responses to her: 1 sentence only. No commas. You only express 1 thought to her per communication and you sit on your instinct to explain or amplify, because when you explain or amplify you're actually negating.


----------



## turnera

Are the books in yet?


----------



## cool12

start the divorce process already.

i just don't understand why you want to give her chance after chance. she continues to show you that she isn't going to give you what you want. why do you keep begging her for it? 

no matter what her excuse is or however many excuses you make for her, the situation hasn't changed. you tell her what you need and she ignores it.

plz, for your own sanity, stop talking to her and move on.


----------



## poida

So, I now have my first real apology and display of remorse with no blame references, no excuses and with admission of complete responsibility. Also acknowledgement that she has hurt me more than she can imagine and she understands if I don't want to be with her.

I am aware that this could be a one off desperate act and that remorse and openness needs to continue so I proceed cautiously. I also know the last sentence was a test and I didn't respond to that.

My response was;
Thanks for the apology. You still haven't dealt with my issues about the EA and I won't move forward until it has been dealt with in detail. 

I also paid for my surfing trip which was a bit hexy in hindsight. Stuff it. I deserve it. 

After all this during the day, she called crying last night (after her PC) bawling her eyes out about me spending all the money, and that I am being so confusing, that she doesn't think I love her, that I'm just going to punish her and dump her. I lost my **** a bit. I yelled at her saying yes, of course I have been confusing and it is f*cking weak of me to be pissing about waiting for her. I won't be waiting any more. And what does she expect me to be, calm and composed? Get real. I yelled how dare she make me feel bad for taking a holiday for myself, and how dare she accuse me of not loving her, not caring and going to dump her. That she can walk any time she wants, and that I simply don't want to be with someone who can't R properly. 

After things calmed down a bit, I simply reminded her of what still needs to happen if she wants to move to the next step;
- provide details about the affair (not just glossing over it)
- explain how exactly it started (who initiated)
- explain how exactly it finished (who initiated)
- if EA was not finished properly, write letter to OM stating that he is not to contact at all, ever. I am to read before sending.
- blocking OM on phone, facebook etc
- hand over phone and email passwords
- say what she will do if the OM does make contact

We are meeting Friday to go over all this. I said that if she wasn't going to do all of this, don't bother turning up, it's over.

If she passes this step as well, I plan to let a few weeks pass with a few counselling sessions to assess if it was all genuine, and also see what else crops up. I will also be away in the US for 2 weeks in that time.

After that, I am back for a week and I plan to do one MC together to see where she is at and whether this is worth continuing.

Then I go on my surfing trip for 2 weeks to clean my mind and my soul and consider what I want in life.

When I get back the second time, and if I want to continue with work on the R, I will see how she is acting toward me and then consider inviting her to move back in the house to keep working on the R. Terms of moving back in will be that PC and MC continue. MC to continue until we are both satisfied. PC to continue for at least 12months for her to learn to express her emotions properly. Breach of any of this is D.

I think what is difficult to explain in my situation is that the WW has some BPD traits. These traits are caused by childhood abandonment by her father and learnt behaviours from her mother (burying any emotional issue that comes up). In this situation I recognise that right now, it is quite likely that she will destroy herself before pushing herself to deal with emotionally difficult issues properly. I completely acknowledge that there is no quick fix for this behaviour and it will take years of hard work for her to change this behaviour.

But in the mean time, I have decided that this situation initially requires some leadership. I know many or most of you do not feel this is the correct approach to the situation, and it does carry with it some pit falls. She is a person who does respond strongly to a leader though.

However, I am the end of my patience and I know that right now, the first few couple of steps are almost impossible for her. I'm not sure she would ever muster the courage to do these steps completely alone. For her, threat of D, or "going dark" is not a motivator (not even in the long term). For her (as she is now) even if she loves me dearly (and I know she does), she will be unable to deal with emotions surrounding the situation and she will be unable to push herself, take initiative and fix the hurt.

Look, I understand the downfalls of this, but I have chosen to take the risk of being the leader initially in this situation. It is that or D from which there will be no recovery. I also understand that there is a chance she will not be able to shift her behaviours and learn to open up emotionally, but honestly, I think she can, and I have seen evidence of that already in this process.

I don't really care. I just feel better by moving this along to a decision either way.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Are the books in yet?


Not yet, hopefully they get here before I go to the US.


----------



## poida

Nucking Futs said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Poida, you don't seem to have the instincts to react in a masculine manner. Every communication you've posted has been deferential to her. Where is your pride? When are you going to get up on your hind legs and say "who the f does she think she is treating _me_ like this?"
> 
> Your ww is communicating to her the way you're supposed to be communicating to her. You say something she doesn't like and what's her response? No response. You're supposed to be doing the 180 but she's doing this part of it better than you.
> 
> Here's how I would have edited your last. From this
> 
> to this
> 
> Here's a suggestion if you don't want to let us edit your responses to her: *1 sentence only. No commas. You only express 1 thought to her per communication and you sit on your instinct to explain or amplify, because when you explain or amplify you're actually negating*.


This is a good suggestion and I know it will help reduce the confusion in our conversations. I will use that.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> This is a good suggestion and I know it will help reduce the confusion in our conversations. I will use that.


Poida check out this site

A Voice for Men – Humanist Counter-Theory in the Age of Misandry


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Poida check out this site
> 
> A Voice for Men – Humanist Counter-Theory in the Age of Misandry


Interesting. TA


----------



## LongWalk

Better, Poida. Don't lose your temper and yell. But otherwise you stated a position. Stick to it.


----------



## Chaparral

Sos, keep it simple stupid, should be your motto. Speak with her in short, unambiguous sentences. By the time you get to the end of a rant with her I doubt she knows how it started. I think you confuse her. Keep the thoughts you are relating to her simple and succint. That doesn't allow for wiggle room or misunderstanding.

The list you gave her was good, what was her reaction?


----------



## poida

Chaparral said:


> Sos, keep it simple stupid, should be your motto. Speak with her in short, unambiguous sentences. By the time you get to the end of a rant with her I doubt she knows how it started. I think you confuse her. Keep the thoughts you are relating to her simple and succint. That doesn't allow for wiggle room or misunderstanding.
> 
> The list you gave her was good, what was her reaction?


Yes, I agree. I do carry on a bit. I need to focus on short, exacting sentences.

Her reaction was silence (keep in mind I said this is what we would discuss on Friday). To me, silence can mean a lot, but to me it felt like the silence that only a strong leader gets. Well at least I hope so. We will see tomorrow.


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> After things calmed down a bit, I simply reminded her of what still needs to happen if she wants to move to the next step;
> - provide details about the affair (not just glossing over it)
> - explain how exactly it started (who initiated)
> - explain how exactly it finished (who initiated)
> - if EA was not finished properly, write letter to OM stating that he is not to contact at all, ever. I am to read before sending.
> - blocking OM on phone, facebook etc
> - hand over phone and email passwords
> - say what she will do if the OM does make contact
> 
> We are meeting Friday to go over all this. I said that if she wasn't going to do all of this, don't bother turning up, it's over.


this is a very reasonable list and any remorseful WS sincere about R would be more than willing to complete each task.

good luck.


----------



## turnera

As long as you don't step in to HELP her do any of these steps, I'm ok with it. You have my permission, lol. 

You ARE willing to leave her alone unless she steps forward with these steps, correct?


----------



## lifeistooshort

poida said:


> Yes, I agree. I do carry on a bit. I need to focus on short, exacting sentences.
> 
> Her reaction was silence (keep in mind I said this is what we would discuss on Friday). To me, silence can mean a lot, but to me it felt like the silence that only a strong leader gets. Well at least I hope so. We will see tomorrow.


As a woman I'd tell you the silence was the reaction of someone that doesn't want to do the things you laid out (and probably has no real intention of doing any of them) but doesn't quite have the b&lls to tell you.
Sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

poida said:


> After things calmed down a bit, I simply reminded her of what still needs to happen if she wants to move to the next step;
> - provide details about the affair (not just glossing over it)
> - explain how exactly it started (who initiated)
> - explain how exactly it finished (who initiated)
> - if EA was not finished properly, write letter to OM stating that he is not to contact at all, ever. I am to read before sending.
> - blocking OM on phone, facebook etc
> - *hand over phone and email passwords*
> - say what she will do if the OM does make contact


It's a good list. Once you have access to her phone you need to compare the messaging and call log to the bill and see if she's purged a bunch of stuff. If so you need to ask her why she's trying to fake R with you, why not just agree to end it since she's not willing to be honest with you.


----------



## carmen ohio

poida said:


> Yes, I agree. I do carry on a bit. I need to focus on short, exacting sentences.
> 
> Her reaction was silence (keep in mind I said this is what we would discuss on Friday). To me, silence can mean a lot, but to me it felt like the silence that only a strong leader gets. Well at least I hope so. We will see tomorrow.


poida,

Her silence means (1) that she is not sure you are serious and (2) she hasn't decided yet what to do.

When you meet with her on Friday, it is imperative that you:

- stick to the script you provided in post # 536,

- not enter into any negotiations with her,

- keep your comments short and to the point,

- not allow her to steer the discussion of track,

- not lose your temper and

- at the first sign that she is not willing to give you what you want, get up and leave.

You have finally put the right bait on your line and she's nibbling at it. Now you need to get her to bite and then yank the line to hook her. But if you start playing with your line before she bites, you will lose her.

Sorry for the fishing analogy but I thought it the best way to make my point.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

lifeistooshort said:


> As a woman I'd tell you the silence was the reaction of someone that doesn't want to do the things you laid out (and probably has no real intention of doing any of them) but doesn't quite have the b&lls to tell you.
> Sorry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup, unfortunately I think this is the case. A woman doesnt risk losing a man she wants with silence. Personally, I think you have already screwed yourself out of any chance by being too clingy and too much of a doormat. In fact, I believe this is likely what led to the affair in the first place...

A woman's attraction at its peak is 100. 90 shes still all over you. 70 shes around, cordial, but not particularly passionate about you. Once you hit 50 or less, you might as well date a stone- it will at least give you something to lean on (because shes sure as hell not going to be that for you..).

Sh!tty analogy but I think it makes my point.


carmen ohio said:


> poida,
> 
> Her silence means (1) that she is not sure you are serious and (2) she hasn't decided yet what to do.
> 
> When you meet with her on Friday, it is imperative that you:
> 
> - stick to the script you provided in post # 536,
> 
> - not enter into any negotiations with her,
> 
> - keep your comments short and to the point,
> 
> - not allow her to steer the discussion of track,
> 
> - not lose your temper and
> 
> - at the first sign that she is not willing to give you what you want, get up and leave.
> 
> You have finally put the right bait on your line and she's nibbling at it. Now you need to get her to bite and then yank the line to hook her. But if you start playing with your line before she bites, you will lose her.
> 
> Sorry for the fishing analogy but I thought it the best way to make my point.


If you want any chance, follow this advice to the letter. THE LETTER. You must all of a sudden channel the personality of Jack Nicholson or Marlon Brando. Any WHIFF of the HINT of weakness will end any and all chances you have at a future with her. No hesitation in your voice, and no hesitation to demand respect be directed at you. You are obviously giving her demands so you want a future, but you can just as easily go down the road if thats what it takes for your principles to be met.

I am not the only person who has taken this hardline with you...


----------



## Remains

OptimisticPessimist said:


> A woman's attraction at its peak is 100. 90 shes still all over you. 70 shes around, cordial, but not particularly passionate about you. *Once you hit 50 or less, you might as well date a stone- it will at least give you something to lean on*(because shes sure as hell not going to be that for you..).


I love this analogy! Particularly the thought of dating a stone because at least you can lean on it! Haha


----------



## poida

OK, so she didn't do what I asked from her.
I caved again and asked her to my cousins wedding.
I guess I ws exhausting all opportunities for her to show and do the right thing. Things were going well and then around 10pm, I come back to the dance floor and she is dancing with another guy. The guy that everybody knows is single and player. Not just dancing but very dirty dancing. Disgraceful. My whole family was standing there open mouthed. I heard third hand that my mum had called her a dirty sl*twhich is most unlike her. You can imagine how devastating and embarrassing this was for me.
I walked up and calmly asked what she was doing. She started arguing back. I said "it's over Jac", sl*t about all you like.
I went and sat out the back, she followed and basically just started arguing with me. I just stuck to my guns. She said I'm leaving, I said do what you want.
My family came in and supported me as I was a mess.
We all went back to the hotel. My sister took me back to my room. The WW was there. I calmly packed my things and left. She begged me not to leave and blocked the door. I pushed her out of my way and left to stay in my sisters rom. She called my mobile a dozen times, knocked on my sisters room, called from reception and sent messages to see her in the morning.
I ignored it all and drove home alone in the morning. 

So at the moment, I have taken a day off work. My emotions are all over the place. My feelings of love for her are stronger than ever. I know I need to block them. NMMNG has arrived and I will read it today.

I know there is no easy road forward, just day by day, but does anyone have some suggestions about how they got over the person they'd were so completely in love with?


----------



## poida

lifeistooshort said:


> As a woman I'd tell you the silence was the reaction of someone that doesn't want to do the things you laid out (and probably has no real intention of doing any of them) but doesn't quite have the b&lls to tell you.
> Sorry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is exactly correct. She does not have the emotional strength to care emotionally about other people. She can do nice things for other people, but has zero emotional empathy. 

She will not change in this respect (if she does it will take her years) and I can't live that way. Part of me is still a sucker for punishment and wants her back desperately. I need to ignore that guy. I will listen to NMMNG for now.

It has to be over unfortunately. There is no other option for me if I want to someone who is there for me emotionally in my life.


----------



## 12345Person

Have your balls dropped?


----------



## poida

Anonymous Person said:


> Have your balls dropped?


What?


----------



## 12345Person

poida said:


> What?


Have your balls dropped? If they have, where'd you leave them?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

You know Poida, my WS was/is a lot like yours. A very caring person on the outside. Would do absolutely anything for me (or anyone else) but completely emotionally unavailable to me and without any empathy whatsoever. It has taken and *is* taking a lot of very hard work on my part to get him to see this. 

I was only saying to him yesterday that sometimes I get really tired of having to constantly point out were and in what way he lacks empathy and is emotionally unavailable.

I get tired because I have to set aside my own emotional needs in any given moment, by becoming very detached about the way he hurts me; still be attached enough to be able to explain exactly how it feels for me, yet setting aside all blame towards him.

I've needed lot of ego strength to be able to do it.

It is working and we are getting there. His ability to emotionally empathise is growing in small fits and starts. It's much better than it was 12 months ago for instance, after being non existent for the previous 19 years.

I said all that because I don't believe that any R is completely without hope. No matter how dark it is.


----------



## jack.c

Anonymous Person said:


> Have your balls dropped? If they have, where'd you leave them?



I dont agree. I think he did the wright thing. Leaving her ther and then was the best thing he did! Now he needs to continue this path.... oing 180 and having her served.


----------



## LostAndContent

The only advice I can give you is to stick to your guns. As the days go on you're anger will start to fade again and you'll start to wonder whether you're over reacting, especially because she'll tell you you are over and over again. Just stick to your guns and move on, even when your emotions are telling you to take her back. Your emotions are dirty liars that are just afraid of being alone. Concentrate on improving yourself for the next girl, even if it takes ten years for you to trust women enough to date again.


----------



## happyman64

Poida

A remorseless spouse would have stuck by you like glue at this wedding.

She does not get it. She might not ever get it.

And you are learning the harder, painful way.

Detach. Detach. Detach.

HM


----------



## Chaparral

I think she as trying to win you back by making you jealous. Does she normally behave awkardly in social situations?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Chaparral said:


> I think she as trying to win you back by making you jealous. Does she normally behave awkardly in social situations?


Chaparral, I normally agree with you, I'd say 99% of the time. This is that 1%. Do you really think that she doesn't think he's _already_ jealous?

If she was dumb enough to think that the way to get back with the man she cheated on would be to grind on another man in front of his family she'd be too dumb to keep anyway.


----------



## cool12

happyman64 said:


> Poida
> 
> *A remorseless spouse would have stuck by you like glue at this wedding.*
> 
> She does not get it. She might not ever get it.
> 
> And you are learning the harder, painful way.
> 
> Detach. Detach. Detach.
> 
> HM


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
when you want your spouse to forgive you for something, you do EVERYTHING possible to make that happen.
she should have been on your arm all night, flirting with you and at the very least, trying to manipulate the situation to remind you of the marital bliss possible between the 2 of you if you'd just take her back. it was a wedding ffs! 
instead she was dirty dancing with another man. 
and now your love for her is stronger? 

i don't think you've got what it takes to put yourself first and move on. go ahead and let her come back home. it's what you both want. you won't be any happier but at least you won't be in limbo about what to do.

make a decision before you destroy everything.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I know there is no easy road forward, just day by day, but does anyone have some suggestions about how they got over the person they'd were so completely in love with?


Just what we keep telling you to do - because it works! Start exercising, start hanging out with guy friends, read books, change your habits, take some classes to learn something new, make new friends, buy new clothes for your new physique.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Podia,

what you are going through is truly gut wrenching, its like living in nightmare that you can't wake up from, part of you wants the best of her while discarding the worst of her. Unfortunately with her its all or nothing....the problem is how many good days will be over shadowed by bad days. Don't you and your mind deserve a rest from her antics whether they be conscious or unconscious, don't you deserve to be in a relationship that you can actually communicate with someone who is on the same page as you? Don't deny yourself the happiness your deserve, your a good man, and not to say she is a bad woman, but she is a lost woman, and you should not get lost yourself in trying to help get out. Somethings and some people are just beyond our help....there is a great line in a great book i want to share with you...
"you can love someone completely without completely understanding them". But i will add you can do that from a far and from a different and better relationship. one day at a time


----------



## Acabado

I believe she did it clearly on purpose, to burn any bridge left right in front of your entire family... she was already pushing you to pull the trigger lately as she realized what you were asking for was far from what she could possibly give. While "intelectualy" she understood it was reasonable she didn't have it within so she started proactively putting the blame on you, projecting, claiming you weren't interested on R, that you would never forgive her... yada yada. The proverbial prophecy. She chose once again the cowards way.

I'm sorry man. it was obvious you wanted this marriage to work. It takes two.


----------



## Chaparral

Nucking Futs said:


> Chaparral, I normally agree with you, I'd say 99% of the time. This is that 1%. Do you really think that she doesn't think he's _already_ jealous?
> 
> If she was dumb enough to think that the way to get back with the man she cheated on would be to grind on another man in front of his family she'd be too dumb to keep anyway.


The act of her dancing like that in front of everyone was so dumb I was stumped for any other explanation.. in front of momma in law, really? The only other logical reason I can think of is she was stupid drunk.


For some reason she thought everyone would be cool with that? She just doesn't know social convention?


----------



## carmen ohio

poida said:


> OK, so she didn't do what I asked from her.
> I caved again and asked her to my cousins wedding.
> I guess I ws exhausting all opportunities for her to show and do the right thing . . .





poida said:


> . . . It has to be over unfortunately. There is no other option for me if I want to someone who is there for me emotionally in my life.


Dear poida,

I hope you now realize that "caving" is the most counter-productive thing you can do when trying to save a relationship that has been damaged by infidelity: it merely feeds the wayward's sense of entitlement. If you truly want to give your WS an opportunity to _"do the right thing,"_ you have to leave her with no other option -- and that requires you to stand firm on what it will take for you to give her another chance.

You say, _"It has to be over unfortunately."_ I presume you mean by that your marriage, and maybe that is true. But what really needs to be "over" is your continuing to make excuses for her, letting her take the easy way out and generally ignoring the reality of your situation. When you find your self-respect, get your emotions under control and start behaving rationally, you will be surprised how quickly your situation will improve. You may even be surprised by your WW's reaction, because the best way to win her back is to prove to her that you don't need her.

You're making progress and I think you're going to be OK. But it all depends on you doing what's right for you and leaving your WW to solve her own problems for the time being.


----------



## Acabado

carmen ohio said:


> Dear poida,
> 
> I hope you now realize that "caving" is the most counter-productive thing you can do when trying to save a relationship that has been damaged by infidelity: it merely feeds the wayward's sense of entitlement. If you truly want to give your WS an opportunity to _"do the right thing,"_ you have to leave her with no other option -- and that requires you to stand firm on what it will take for you to give her another chance.


I do believe, to further explain my last post, that in this case "caving" was shockingly what finnaly pushed her off the fence, she already had her mind made up to kill the marriage for good. I believe she felt the pressure when OP showed her his continued willingness to keep trying by inviting her to the wedding, she felt awful, pulled back once again and decide to provoke the scene to ensure there's no way back. She now knows.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Acabado said:


> I do believe, to further explain my last post, that in this case "caving" was shockingly what finnaly pushed her off the fence, she already had her mind made up to kill the marriage for good. I believe she felt the pressure when OP showed her his continued willingness to keep trying by inviting her to the wedding, she felt awful, pulled back once again and decide to provoke the scene to ensure there's no way back. She now knows.


I think you're right that this was an attempt to force him to divorce her. I'm not so sure it was a successful attempt. Time will tell.


----------



## cool12

Acabado said:


> I do believe, to further explain my last post, that in this case "caving" was shockingly what finnaly pushed her off the fence, she already had her mind made up to kill the marriage for good. I believe she felt the pressure when OP showed her his continued willingness to keep trying by inviting her to the wedding, she felt awful, pulled back once again and decide to provoke the scene to ensure there's no way back. She now knows.


yeah, i think she must be confused too.
he tells her she has to do x, y and z or else but when she doesn't do x, y and z, there is no consequence.


----------



## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> I think you're right that this was an attempt to force him to divorce her. I'm not so sure it was a successful attempt. Time will tell.


Hopefully poida will be tired of being the only one wanting to save the relationship.
His bottom to hit.


----------



## Remains

poida said:


> *This is exactly correct. She does not have the emotional strength to care emotionally about other people. She can do nice things for other people, but has zero emotional empathy. *
> 
> She will not change in this respect (if she does it will take her years) and I can't live that way. Part of me is still a sucker for punishment and wants her back desperately. I need to ignore that guy. I will listen to NMMNG for now.
> 
> It has to be over unfortunately. There is no other option for me if I want to someone who is there for me emotionally in my life.


Oh my god I am reading about my situation!


Oh, and the trick of getting over her is either, to not see her at all and just keep reminding yourself of all the things she's done when you miss her and fell sad...write them down! Or, spend the next 2 1/2 years trying to get her to relent and fix so she can continually disappoint you, and devastate you. And as time goes on the love diminishes to practically zero. And leaving her seems like some light relief and something to feel very cheerful about. Also, leaving is very good medicine for the depression and headaches


----------



## turnera

Ad nauseum, here's the bottom line. When a spouse feels you'll never leave them, they can easily lose empathy for you. Why bother? It's all the OTHER people he/she has to work on, to keep happy. 

Never let your spouse believe you'll never leave them.


----------



## poida

Chaparral said:


> I think she as trying to win you back by making you jealous. Does she normally behave awkardly in social situations?


Yes, and I would agree she was doing it to make me jealous to get me on the dance floor. I was only paying her a moderate amount of attention that night.


----------



## poida

Xenote said:


> Podia,
> 
> what you are going through is truly gut wrenching, its like living in nightmare that you can't wake up from, part of you wants the best of her while discarding the worst of her. Unfortunately with her its all or nothing....the problem is how many good days will be over shadowed by bad days. Don't you and your mind deserve a rest from her antics whether they be conscious or unconscious, don't you deserve to be in a relationship that you can actually communicate with someone who is on the same page as you? Don't deny yourself the happiness your deserve, your a good man, and not to say she is a bad woman, but she is a lost woman, and you should not get lost yourself in trying to help get out. Somethings and some people are just beyond our help....there is a great line in a great book i want to share with you...
> "you can love someone completely without completely understanding them". But i will add you can do that from a far and from a different and better relationship. one day at a time


Thanks. I agree. This morning I feel a bit different. I still love her, but I know now I can't live that way. It is respite from the fog for a change and it is a relief.

I have accepted that I am that man in NMMNG, and that I have contributed to the fall down of myself and the marriage in that way.

She on the other hand has come from the opposite end of the spectrum - complete inability to back down and empathise with other people. I came to realise that she has lost good friends, work colleagues and family members as a result of her personality. It is not a personality I can live with.

I have given her an opportunity to speak with me before I go away. I will be making the above points as clear as possible. I will be telling her that I am going away for 2.5 weeks, will be home for 1 week and away for another 2 weeks.

If she chooses that she wants to try to change how she interacts with people while I am away, I will decide whether I wish to support that upon my return.


----------



## poida

Chaparral said:


> The act of her dancing like that in front of everyone was so dumb I was stumped for any other explanation.. in front of momma in law, really? The only other logical reason I can think of is she was stupid drunk.
> 
> 
> For some reason she thought everyone would be cool with that? She just doesn't know social convention?


She was stupid drunk. 
It was going well until that point.
For me, the dancing was the least of the problem. It was the moment when she started arguing with me on the dance floor when I complained about it that made my decision easy.


----------



## poida

Nucking Futs said:


> I think you're right that this was an attempt to force him to divorce her. I'm not so sure it was a successful attempt. Time will tell.


No, she doesn't want to divorce. She made that clear by doing everything she could to stop me packing my **** and leave the room. She called and called and called, knocked on my sisters door and left crying.

She is just so completely selfish and pig headed and she knows it. She is ashamed of herself.


----------



## 12345Person

Good. Perhaps you can gently ask her to let your borrow your balls back.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Over her cheating but now she "needs space"*



poida said:


> No, she doesn't want to divorce. She made that clear by doing everything she could to stop me packing my **** and leave the room. She called and called and called, knocked on my sisters door and left crying.
> 
> She is just so completely selfish and pig headed and she knows it. She is ashamed of herself.


Knowing it is all fine and good but what is she willing to do about it?


----------



## 12345Person

bfree said:


> Knowing it is all fine and good but what is she willing to do about it?


Nothing.


----------



## poida

bfree said:


> Knowing it is all fine and good but what is she willing to do about it?


Well, she is floating on her own now.

If she learns to swim, great, otherwise I'm saving myself.

I still love her, and honestly, I hope she can learn from her lessons


----------



## jim123

poida said:


> Well, she is floating on her own now.
> 
> If she learns to swim, great, otherwise I'm saving myself.
> 
> I still love her, and honestly, I hope she can learn from her lessons


Actually she has been the one in control. So knows you will give in.

You need to stand up for yourself and get control.


----------



## tom67

jim123 said:


> Actually she has been the one in control. So knows you will give in.
> 
> You need to stand up for yourself and get control.


Jim I thin he has had enough.
He did okay at the wedding imo.
But poida stay strong friend and end the suffering.


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Jim I thin he has had enough.
> He did okay at the wedding imo.
> But poida stay strong friend and end the suffering.


Thanks Tom. It all helps.

At least now I'm in a place where I KNOW I won't settle for anything but a significant change in her approach to the situation.

In the mean time, I'm continuing to learn about myself and continuing with D.


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> No, she doesn't want to divorce. She made that clear by doing everything she could to stop me packing my **** and leave the room.


focus on what she made clear by dirty dancing in front of you and your family.


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> focus on what she made clear by dirty dancing in front of you and your family.


I think it's a desperate attempt for attention from me and a test to see how much I am willing to do to keep her.

What do you think it means?


----------



## Chaparral

I think if she will do that in front of you, what will she do when you're not looking.

Does she normaly lose control when she's drunk? Does she go out on gnos?


----------



## 12345Person

poida said:


> I think it's a desperate attempt for attention from me and a test to see how much I am willing to do to keep her.
> 
> What do you think it means?


There's a good chance she was trying to humiliate you.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

*Sigh* Poida, Poida, Poida..

Cant you see you're grasping at semantics in order to give yourself a chance in your fantasy? MOVE ON! 

Why on EARTH would you even WANT to be with a woman who would embarrass you like that?? :scratchhead: I bet that sick a****** ENJOYED it in the moment; shes like a cat torturing a dying mouse! That is NOT normal dude.

Pull chocks and get the f*** out of Dodge!


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> I think it's a desperate attempt for attention from me and a test to see how much I am willing to do to keep her.
> 
> What do you think it means?


She wants you to FEEL something, anything, about her, even if it is anger, rage and jealousy. 

It was a very deliberate poly to stir up your emotions.


----------



## turnera

Or else she's so screwed up now that she can't tell what's ****ty and what's virtuous.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> She wants you to FEEL something, anything, about her, even if it is anger, rage and jealousy.
> 
> It was a very deliberate poly to stir up your emotions.


Indeed- to see him crushed makes her feel power... in a very sick way.


turnera said:


> Or else she's so screwed up now that she can't tell what's ****ty and what's virtuous.


I think she can tell. I think she enjoys seeing the power she has over him. Misery loves company.

You could be right though...


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> She wants you to FEEL something, anything, about her, even if it is anger, rage and jealousy.
> 
> It was a very deliberate poly to stir up your emotions.


Yeah, we got a winner here. I would agree. It's about HER. She can't stand that I wasn't paying her attention. Manipulation is the only tool in her tool box to try to get me to pay her attention and pull me back into a relationship. A relationship SHE needs for herself. SHE needs some in her life to pander over her, meet her every need, support her, and puff her ego.

I have no doubt she loves me, but it's a love without any emotional support or empathy. The result has been a fundamentally incomplete relationship. Unbalanced and biased.

And for those telling me to move on, don't worry, I am.

I get it. It's really as simple as not wanting to live with a person who simply does not see value in offering empathy to her partner, or simply does not know how to do so, or who's self centred life does not even consider the need to be that way for their partner.

I have also learned that I am the "good guy", the passive/aggressive guy who NEEDED approval, NEEDED love. I am working my way out of this place and feel better already. I will need to read NMMNG many times I would suggest as I read many pages with sheer dis-belief and confusion.

Of course this meant that in our marriage we were the polar opposites of each other in this respect and I now know that. 

In many ways I wish this had been pointed out to us early in our marriage so we could at least try to work on ourselves. It is now too late. The trauma of the last couple of years and the affair and now me leaving her has no doubt left her in a paralysed state in which she will not change.

I still love her (dwindling) but I don't need it, I don't want it, it's not good for me, and it's not worth it.


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> I think it's a desperate attempt for attention from me and a test to see *how much I am willing to do to keep her.*
> 
> What do you think it means?


wtf?
why is it about what she YOU have to do to keep her?
she fvcked up and you've asked her to do certain things so you can move forward togehter and she won't.

as for what i think it means, i think it means she has boundary issues and doesn't see how that hurts you. she's selfish.


----------



## poida

Chaparral said:


> I think if she will do that in front of you, what will she do when you're not looking.
> 
> Does she normaly lose control when she's drunk? Does she go out on gnos?


Yeah she doesn't think she is doing anything bad when she is drunk.

And yeah, I'm sure she is worse when I'm not there.

It matters not now.


----------



## turnera

Why would YOU have to do anything to keep HER?

Oh, yeah, I remember: she knows you're whooped.


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> wtf?
> why is it about what she YOU have to do to keep her?
> she fvcked up and you've asked her to do certain things so you can move forward togehter and she won't.
> 
> as for what i think it means, i think it means she has boundary issues and doesn't see how that hurts you. she's selfish.


Yup. Self centred. Unable to empathise and only knows how to manipulate.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Why would YOU have to do anything to keep HER?
> 
> Oh, yeah, I remember: she knows you're whooped.


Well, I can confidently say I'm not whooped now. It came to me last night. It feels great to say that. It's a great moment to know that you know you just don't care anymore. This is no reason to go back. The internal debate about pros and cons of the break up doesn't even exist anymore.

I just feel sad it all happened at all I guess, frustration at the process of a divorce and selling everything off, but I'll get over that.

I think I might have a wine with a mate to celebrate that milestone tonight.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> Yup. Self centred. Unable to empathise and only knows how to manipulate.


Self-centered? Yup.

Unable to empathize? Oh no... she can empathize just fine. Empathy is a person's capacity to feel what someone else feels. She can feel what you feel- she ENJOYS making you feel pain because she is WHACK and because she doesnt respect you. 

Just IMO..


----------



## turnera

poida, just a warning. We see this ALL.THE.TIME. You go through your roller coaster of emotions, feeling confident one day, downtrodden the next, hopeful the next, lonely the next...

You may feel CERTAIN that you are now on a certain path, but on the next day you're biting your hand to keep from calling her.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> poida, just a warning. We see this ALL.THE.TIME. You go through your roller coaster of emotions, feeling confident one day, downtrodden the next, hopeful the next, lonely the next...
> 
> You may feel CERTAIN that you are now on a certain path, but on the next day you're biting your hand to keep from calling her.


I'm sure you are right.


----------



## turnera

So whatcha gonna do about it?


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> So whatcha gonna do about it?


Well I have already opened new bank accounts, boxed up her stuff, sold our investment property, and have a tradesman at home preparing the house for sale right now. I am reading NMMNG, seeing my counsellor regularly, spending time with family and friends.


----------



## jim123

poida said:


> Well I have already opened new bank accounts, boxed up her stuff, sold our investment property, and have a tradesman at home preparing the house for sale right now. I am reading NMMNG, seeing my counsellor regularly, spending time with family and friends.


Take care of yourself. Start doing things for you.


----------



## poida

jim123 said:


> Take care of yourself. Start doing things for you.


At the moment I'm preparing for a trip to Europe and USA for work that I'm doing alone. Will spend some time doing a little tourist stuff for me in London, Hamburg, and New York.

When I get back I get on another plane to indo for gagging a 11 day surf trip. On the weekend I got a new surfboard and a bunch of gear.

Emotionally I'm learning about my emotions and forcing myself to ask the question "what makes me happy" as often a I can.


----------



## jim123

poida said:


> At the moment I'm preparing for a trip to Europe and USA for work that I'm doing alone. Will spend some time doing a little tourist stuff for me in London, Hamburg, and New York.
> 
> When I get back I get on another plane to indo for gagging a 11 day surf trip. On the weekend I got a new surfboard and a bunch of gear.
> 
> Emotionally I'm learning about my emotions and forcing myself to ask the question "what makes me happy" as often a I can.


Trips are great but they end. Pick up a new hobby or a new skill. Keep improving yourself.


----------



## poida

jim123 said:


> Trips are great but they end. Pick up a new hobby or a new skill. Keep improving yourself.


I already have plenty of weekend hobbies and have started the gym and squash since the EA to meet new singles and stay fit. 

I think the most important thing is that in everything I do I keep asking myself the question "what do I want to do, what makes me happy"


----------



## lordmayhem

*Re: Re: Over her cheating but now she "needs space"*



poida said:


> I already have plenty of weekend hobbies and have started the gym and squash since the EA to meet new singles and stay fit.
> 
> I think the most important thing is that in everything I do I keep asking myself the question "what do I want to do, what makes me happy"


Its good that you started to work on yourself.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Over her cheating but now she "needs space"*



poida said:


> Well, I can confidently say I'm not whooped now. It came to me last night. It feels great to say that. It's a great moment to know that you know you just don't care anymore. This is no reason to go back. The internal debate about pros and cons of the break up doesn't even exist anymore.
> 
> I just feel sad it all happened at all I guess, frustration at the process of a divorce and selling everything off, but I'll get over that.
> 
> I think I might have a wine with a mate to celebrate that milestone tonight.


Hold on to that revelation and don't let it fade away. Too many tend to backslide and end up bouncing back and forth for years. Now THAT'S hell.


----------



## poida

Having a harder day today.

Had to message the WW to see if she planned to stay at the house and look after the dog and water the gardens while I am away in USA and INDO (2.5 weeks + 2 weeks) or whether I book a kennel and a gardener.
She is playing the I'm not responding game, which is frustrating because I can see she might get nasty now. I was hoping we could do it amicably. Either that or she still expects me to crawl around after her. Based on our history, and the pathetic level to which I found myself, it's entirely possible. I don't care - I ain't playing that game.

I also hear from a friend of mine that she is ringing all of our friends. His wife wouldn't divulge what she was saying but obviously she is priming them with her version of events and that I'm a bastard for leaving her.

I guess in the end, any friend that is worth his/her salt should be able to see through the bull**** and expect there to be two sides to every tale, but it is frustrating none the less.

Whilst I haven't got too much of an issue with putting the dog in a kennel (although I would rather not - poor little guy) and hiring a gardener to water (money for jam), it's frustrating that she is playing games by not responding. Once again, very selfish and self centred.

I'm not expecting all this to be painless, but I'm hurting today and it pisses me off. 

Emotional vomit over.


----------



## jack.c

poida said:


> Having a harder day today.
> 
> Had to message the WW to see if she planned to stay at the house and look after the dog and water the gardens while I am away in USA and INDO (2.5 weeks + 2 weeks) or whether I book a kennel and a gardener.
> She is playing the I'm not responding game, which is frustrating because I can see she might get nasty now. I was hoping we could do it amicably. Either that or she still expects me to crawl around after her. Based on our history, and the pathetic level to which I found myself, it's entirely possible. I don't care - I ain't playing that game.
> 
> I also hear from a friend of mine that she is ringing all of our friends. His wife wouldn't divulge what she was saying but obviously she is priming them with her version of events and that I'm a bastard for leaving her.
> 
> I guess in the end, any friend that is worth his/her salt should be able to see through the bull**** and expect there to be two sides to every tale, but it is frustrating none the less.
> 
> Whilst I haven't got too much of an issue with putting the dog in a kennel (although I would rather not - poor little guy) and hiring a gardener to water (money for jam), it's frustrating that she is playing games by not responding. Once again, very selfish and self centred.
> 
> I'm not expecting all this to be painless, but I'm hurting today and it pisses me off.
> 
> Emotional vomit over.


I think you doing a pretty goo job poida.... and i also think that not plying her game is the best responce you could do.... wait for an answer, and if she keeps ignoring you then do as you planned without telling her nothing. Your actions will be a responce on her bullxxxx


----------



## turnera

You should have told your friends the truth by now.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> Had to message the WW to see if she planned to stay at the house and look after the dog and water the gardens while I am away in USA and INDO (2.5 weeks + 2 weeks) or whether I book a kennel and a gardener.
> She is playing the I'm not responding game, which is frustrating because I can see she might get nasty now.


It's not that she particularly wants to be nasty, she just wants to control you and your life as much as she can and since you gave her that opportunity by texting her about the dog and garden, she just took full advantage of the gift you gave her.

She's so predictable I could write a book.


----------



## ricky15100

You gave her a chance to respond, now you respond by putting the dog in the kennels and hiring the gardener, job done!


----------



## poida

Ok, so now she calls back and says she want sot catch up tonight. I am sweating it!!!!

I have just gone through reminding myself that "what is it that I want". I also accept that I only experience anxiety because I am still trying to control my warped view of her and the situation, and that I have to "give in" to the moment and just accept it for what it is; A cheating wife who has been unable to R and is not going to change. Someone who I would not want in my life. She is not a Princess, she is a flawed human being just like anybody else. We have come fundamentally from opposite ends of the emotionally available spectrum and I'm amazed we ever got this far.

I have also accepted that even IF I had learned about my "nice guy" flaws years ago and how this affected the relationship, I still think that her complete inability to empathise in a relationship would have eventually ended the relationship anyway.

I plan to sitting down and write out an agreement with her about how we finalise division of our assets and proceed with divorce. 

For those who haven't been following, you can't file for 12 months. It has only been 5 since we separated.

I guess I'm still a bit worried she will try to convince me to stay in the relationship. 

Bahhh, I worry too much..... I know what to do. Still ****ting myself tho.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Ok, so now she calls back and says she want sot catch up tonight. I am sweating it!!!!
> 
> I have just gone through reminding myself that "what is it that I want", that I am only anxious because I am still trying to manipulate her and the situation and that I have to "give in" to the moment and just accept it for what it is; A cheating wife who has been unable to R and is not going to change.
> 
> I plan to sitting down and write out an agreement with her about how we finalise division of our assets and proceed with divorce.
> 
> For those who haven't been following, you can't file for 12 months. It has only been 5 since we separated.
> 
> I guess I'm still a bit worried she will try to convince me to stay in the relationship.
> 
> Bahhh, I worry too much..... I know what to do. Still ****ting myself tho.


Remember what she did to you.
FOCUS.
And get some strange this weekend.
You need it.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> I also accept that I only experience anxiety because I am still trying to control my warped view of her and the situation, and that I have to "give in" to the moment and just accept it for what it is;


This giving in to the moment and acceptance of what is, is real, I don't think it's warped. I spoke a little about it in one of my other posts. I just think your feelings are a little ahead of the reality that you are _actually_ in.

The giving in and acceptance can only ever happen when and IF she ever realises, regrets and is remorseful about her behaviour towards you and the huge betrayal that she has visited upon you.

The work of recovery demands honesty, integrity and openness.
It seems that, from what you have stated anyway, that level of accountability is completely beyond her. 

If she sees no need to change, then she _won't_ change.

The only way it _might_ happen, is if you completely, truly, let her go.


----------



## turnera

poida, what about this? Why don't you write out a paragraph of all the things she's done to you. You can post it here and we'll augment it. Then you print it out and keep it in your wallet. Every time she tries to reel you back in, you pull it out and reread it to remind you WHY YOU ARE LEAVING.


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> Ok, so now she calls back and says she want sot catch up tonight. I am sweating it!!!!
> 
> I have just gone through reminding myself that "what is it that I want". I also accept that I only experience anxiety because I am still trying to control my warped view of her and the situation, and that I have to "give in" to the moment and just accept it for what it is; A cheating wife who has been unable to R and is not going to change. Someone who I would not want in my life. She is not a Princess, she is a flawed human being just like anybody else. We have come fundamentally from opposite ends of the emotionally available spectrum and I'm amazed we ever got this far.
> 
> I have also accepted that even IF I had learned about my "nice guy" flaws years ago and how this affected the relationship, I still think that her complete inability to empathise in a relationship would have eventually ended the relationship anyway.
> 
> I plan to sitting down and write out an agreement with her about how we finalise division of our assets and proceed with divorce.
> 
> For those who haven't been following, you can't file for 12 months. It has only been 5 since we separated.
> 
> I guess I'm still a bit worried she will try to convince me to stay in the relationship.
> 
> Bahhh, I worry too much..... I know what to do. Still ****ting myself tho.


how did your "catching up" go?


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> how did your "catching up" go?


Very calm actually. She came over, made it clear she didn't want it to get nasty and we simply agreed that we would finish renovating the house, and sell it, then divide up all the assets. I said fine and left to go out with mates. She was being really nice to me but said nothing emotional of our situation. 

On Sunday night I was leaving to go overseas the next morning and she came over to house sit and look after the dog so she stayed over in the other room. I had packed and went to bed. Before I did she asked if I wanted a hug. I accepted and it was a tearful hug on both sides. I felt she still wants me. She held me so tight. I said goodnight and walked away. At 4am when I was leaving she got up again and came to Me and hugged me again and cried. I said good bye and left.

So, it seems clear to me she still wants me, but why oh why can she not open up and say remorseful comment to me about all this. 

I have been reading nmmng and have realised my expectations for her are largely my internal covert contracts and I am learning that I am the master if my feelings. BUT, if she wants me in her life, she needs to open up and show that she wants me. Why she can't or won't baffles me. Personally I think the guilt of what she did has convinced her that tibia less painful for her to close up and hope it all goes away instead of openning up. And at the same time knowing she is losing me. I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cool12

if she hasn't figured out yet that she needs to open up to you in order to keep you she never will.

enjoy your trip!


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> if she hasn't figured out yet that she needs to open up to you in order to keep you she never will.
> 
> enjoy your trip!


Sadly, this is all too true and a waste of what could have been a saved marriage.

I know now I can't live without her opening up and learning to communicate our emotions.

I feel like I have done so much, have come so far and am willing to change who I am (for the better IAW NMMNG), and yet she has done nothing, has not changed.

It's so so sad.


----------



## poida

Having a difficult day. I have read nmmng 3 times now. I get it, I practice it and I will be it in the future. Despite all that, I still see the situation as a complete waste. I find myself thinking of ways to try to save the marriage. Ways of trying to initiate conversation. Ways of getting her to open up about what she is thinking, who she is, can she make this work. It's driving me batty. I know what you all think and I think the same about myself. Stop punishing myself, move on, if she wants it she will make it happen. Well there in lies the problem. In the short term I'm not sure she will be able to make it happen, but I hold hope for the long term. And if I divorce now it will never happen. Aghhhhh I know how this sounds, but it is the torture I am experiencing. P
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> Having a difficult day. I have read nmmng 3 times now. I get it, I practice it and I will be it in the future. Despite all that, I still see the situation as a complete waste. I find myself thinking of ways to try to save the marriage. Ways of trying to initiate conversation. Ways of getting her to open up about what she is thinking, who she is, can she make this work. It's driving me batty. I know what you all think and I think the same about myself. Stop punishing myself, move on, if she wants it she will make it happen. Well there in lies the problem. In the short term I'm not sure she will be able to make it happen, but I hold hope for the long term. And if I divorce now it will never happen. Aghhhhh I know how this sounds, but it is the torture I am experiencing. P
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Problem is Poida, she is probably a good two years ahead of you on detachment. That's what women do. The secretly detach, playing like everything is fine and that they love their husbands...

....but secretly they are planning their escape, and then by the time they leave you they are completely emotionally detached, while you are going through cardiac arrest trying to figure out WTF happened. 

This is what happened with you, why your STBXWW doesn't seem to care. She talks a good game about wanting to stay together, but her actions speak the total opposite. She checked out long ago. You are nothing more than a safety net/last contingency to her. That is why she strings you along.


----------



## smileandlaugh

poida said:


> Having a difficult day. I have read nmmng 3 times now. I get it, I practice it and I will be it in the future. Despite all that, I still see the situation as a complete waste. *I find myself thinking of ways to try to save the marriage. Ways of trying to initiate conversation. Ways of getting her to open up about what she is thinking, who she is, can she make this work. It's driving me batty.* I know what you all think and I think the same about myself. Stop punishing myself, move on, if she wants it she will make it happen. Well there in lies the problem. In the short term I'm not sure she will be able to make it happen, but I hold hope for the long term. And if I divorce now it will never happen. Aghhhhh I know how this sounds, but it is the torture I am experiencing. P
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, I haven't read through your whole story. I just highlighted the part that really hits close to home. I'm in a situation where my wife (the WS) is wishy washy. Last night it was "I don't know who I am...". It's a bunch of bulls***. Why should the WS get time to figure out things when they're the ones who were so willing to destroy it in the first place? 

I feel your pain.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Problem is Poida, she is probably a good two years ahead of you on detachment. That's what women do. The secretly detach, playing like everything is fine and that they love their husbands...
> 
> ....but secretly they are planning their escape, and then by the time they leave you they are completely emotionally detached, while you are going through cardiac arrest trying to figure out WTF happened.
> 
> This is what happened with you, why your STBXWW doesn't seem to care. She talks a good game about wanting to stay together, but her actions speak the total opposite. She checked out long ago. You are nothing more than a safety net/last contingency to her. That is why she strings you along.


I know this sounds desperate but I do still want to try to save the marriage. Do you think there is anyway, any hope? I'm guessing the answer will be for me to detach completely and if she comes back then consider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> I know this sounds desperate but I do still want to try to save the marriage. *Do you think there is anyway, any hope?* I'm guessing the answer will be for me to detach completely and if she comes back then consider.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. I dont think so brother.

If she wanted it, really wanted R, she would be showing it.


----------



## Ripper

poida said:


> I know this sounds desperate but I do still want to try to save the marriage. Do you think there is anyway, any hope? I'm guessing the answer will be for me to detach completely and if she comes back then consider.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


http://i.imgur.com/GPX12tv.gif


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Problem is Poida, she is probably a good two years ahead of you on detachment. That's what women do. The secretly detach, playing like everything is fine and that they love their husbands...
> 
> ....but secretly they are planning their escape, and then by the time they leave you they are completely emotionally detached, while you are going through cardiac arrest trying to figure out WTF happened.
> 
> This is what happened with you, why your STBXWW doesn't seem to care. She talks a good game about wanting to stay together, but her actions speak the total opposite. She checked out long ago. You are nothing more than a safety net/last contingency to her. That is why she strings you along.


You know what. This is the only explanation for her behaviour. Perhaps there is also some guilt driven need to go through the actions of couples counselling etc but in the end she has moved on and she knows it. I think that is why she wanted to try to become friends again first. Because she isn't in love with me anymore, she doesn't respect me and why she hasn't shown remorse or tried hard in counselling. It makes sense now. 
Thanks.
The next question is do I just move on ASAP or leave the door open for a connection to form. Her long hard hug before I left makes me think she is starting to gain some respect after I said I was leaving. 
I think perhaps continue on my own path and if she chases me down, the. Perhaps. I'm beginning to see there is nothing I can do. 
P
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

Ripper said:


> http://i.imgur.com/GPX12tv.gif


Not to be too PC, but that's not funny mate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> You know what. This is the only explanation for her behaviour. Perhaps there is also some guilt driven need to go through the actions of couples counselling etc but in the end she has moved on and she knows it. I think that is why she wanted to try to become friends again first. Because she isn't in love with me anymore, she doesn't respect me and why she hasn't shown remorse or tried hard in counselling. It makes sense now.
> Thanks.
> 
> *You're welcome*
> 
> 
> 
> The next question is do I just move on ASAP or leave the door open for a connection to form.
> 
> *No.*
> 
> 
> Her long hard hug before I left makes me think she is starting to gain some respect after I said I was leaving.
> 
> *That hug was for her.... to give her a parting, theatrical feeling of closure. She is firmly set in her belief that what she is doing is right.*
> 
> I think perhaps continue on my own path and if she chases me down, the. Perhaps.
> *
> No. She won't. *
> 
> 
> I'm beginning to see there is nothing I can do.
> *
> That's right. And once you absorb that and internalize it, you will begin to heal. *
> 
> P
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WhiteRaven

Poida, there are more women in this world than you can count. Yet, you are obsessing over one who grabbed your balls with both hands and squeezed with all her might. If you miss the pain so much, buy a vice.


----------



## Machiavelli

poida said:


> I know this sounds desperate but I do still want to try to save the marriage. Do you think there is anyway, any hope? I'm guessing the answer will be for me to detach completely and if she comes back then consider.


Very little hope and you probably aren't even willing to do the things that might, with almost insurmountable odds, strike a spark.


----------



## badmemory

poida said:


> The next question is do I just move on ASAP or leave the door open for a connection to form.


Well you need to have the mindset that you're moving on and should expect it. But you don't have to close the door completely. Caution, don't be confused about what I'm saying.

Leaving the door open doesn't mean you change the direction you're headed. It doesn't mean you reach out to her. It just means, that if she does a complete turn around during this process, you could "consider" delaying the D. But I think that turnaround is unlikely, most of the posters here thinks it's unlikely, and you should think it's unlikely. Sorry to tell you that, but that's what you need to hear.


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## poida

Being away, I have had some time to think about what has happened quite a bit more. 
I hate that I am thinking about it all the bloody time, but at least I seem to be thinking more rationally.
I seem to have accepted that NOTHING she has done reflects the actions of a person who is whole heartedly trying to fix the marriage.
It is my opinion now that whilst she may still have nostalgic love and friendship feelings for me, the primal love and desire for me was gone a long time ago, perhaps as long as a year ago. 
Instead of bringing this to my attention, her inabilities to communicate her feelings caused her to express these feelings in unhealthy ways and by bottling it up. She did mention counselling perhaps twice in the last 2 years in the heat of two fights, but never once mentioned it again when the fight was over. I don't hold myself responsible for missing these calls for help as she should be able to say these things when she is sober in normal daily life.
I now believe that the affair was the result of her primal emotional self pushing her to leave me.
It would be nice for her to admit to all this as it would provide me with some closure, but I know this will never happen, and I'm sure I am close enough to the truth anyway.
At this very moment, I am still open to R (yeah I know) if she completely turns around and begs me etc but I can't see this happening. And you know what, I'm OK with feeling that way right now. I can't force myself to hate someone, I will just take me some time to accept the events that have transpired. 
What is most important is that I no longer harbour any feelings to "make it work" or to chase her, call her, contact her or do really anything at all to push for R on my side. For me that is a huge barrier I'm proud to say I have passed. All your support here has been the main thing that has pushed me to do so.
I know it is over because her agreement to proceed with complete separation seemed all too easy and to me simply means that me leaving her is a huge relief. That she didn't have to feel guilty anymore. 
I think also think that perhaps she felt she owed me the opportunity to try to save the marriage, but by not actually participating in saving it, meant that I would eventually leave her anyway. And by me leaving her, she didn't have to feel even worse in herself. I'm not sure what is worse. Being dropped, or being driven to leaving her. Much the same really.
Anyway, I'm just glad I'm over the need to try to make it work now.
PS Treating myself with a bit of skiing in Wisconsin this weekend so if anyone is up there, drop me a line.


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## bigfoot

Chin up buddy. As soon as you realize that you deserve a faithful loving woman in your life, you are gonna kick yourself for hanging on so long to this one. 

Start meeting new people. Don't sit and brood. You have been eating the same meal for years and need to realize that there is a buffet out there. Remember this, even if she came back to you, it would only be for a while and then she would be gone again. You would go through this pain again and the same thoughts again. Keep telling yourself that she is NEVER going to be good for you.

I read about a man whose wife died and he kept her body. He slept with it and cleaned it. Really macabre stuff, but he loved her. The woman you loved died. Let this body go. You can NEVER EVER get the woman you married back. If she returns, it will just be the body. Don't be that dude I described earlier. Be strong buddy.


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## OptimisticPessimist

At this point, I am more concerned with you gaining some confidence and some cohones to throw the way of your next girlfriend. You are very reflective, but it seems to be a very self-deprecating and negative type of reflection.

You need to have standards of behavior that others MUST meet if you are to have a woman direct PASSION towards you in the future. Rather than thinking in terms of feelings, I would encourage you to think in terms of results; it is this subtle change of word that is the primary difference between a woman and a man. 

Times are a' changin... A woman is certainly capable of producing results in the modern world, and now she earns more college degrees and more jobs than us men do (at least in the US). That said, there is a difference between modern capacity and innate instinct- a woman is still at her core driven emotionally WILD by a MAN who deals in results. A woman is driven WILD by a man who's confidence spreads to everyone around him. A woman is driven WILD by the man who DEMANDS others treat him with respect, but who also DEMANDS that he himself treat others with respect. You have to project a cool emotionally-unshakable calm that lets your woman see you are IN CONTROL OF YOUR ENVIRONMENT, or she will continue searching for a man that does.

Emotions, or feelings, are labels we attach to chemical states of our mind (like "love" and "anger", etc); these chemical states are the way our animal mind understands its relationship to its environment. For example, right now you are bummed out and depressed over the situation with your STBX. This is because your brain acknowledges a loss in your environment, and is giving you an incentive to change it. Up until recent history, humans did best when the woman communicated content or discontent with her environment and men ACTED to sustain, improve, or change the environment in response. **EDIT** Think about it... this is one of the primary underpinnings of marriage (at least in nostalgic terms)...

Regardless of our mechanized and transistorized modern society, this is STILL at the base of human attraction. A man conveying feelings is not good or bad to a woman with certain caveats:
1) A woman loves to hear positive emotions about her from a MANLY MAN. It validates her and demonstrates her security in the relationship.
2) Emotions not related to her do not affect her feelings for him so long as they dont indicate some innate weakness of character.

A woman is attracted at first sight to a man who get's results, or appears to get results. The "results" he gets may be different, and what "results" she finds valuable will be different- this, among other things, is the challenge of finding "love." 

Anyways, Im sure others will come along with different views and veritable advice. I feel its important as you move on from here that you work on yourself with MANLY on mind, otherwise I fear you might be in this situation again. Good luck...


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> At this point, I am more concerned with you gaining some confidence and some cohones to throw the way of your next girlfriend. You are very reflective, but it seems to be a very self-deprecating and negative type of reflection.
> 
> You need to have standards of behavior that others MUST meet if you are to have a woman direct PASSION towards you in the future. Rather than thinking in terms of feelings, I would encourage you to think in terms of results; it is this subtle change of word that is the primary difference between a woman and a man.
> 
> Times are a' changin... A woman is certainly capable of producing results in the modern world, and now she earns more college degrees and more jobs than us men do (at least in the US). That said, there is a difference between modern capacity and innate instinct- a woman is still at her core driven emotionally WILD by a MAN who deals in results. A woman is driven WILD by a man who's confidence spreads to everyone around him. A woman is driven WILD by the man who DEMANDS others treat him with respect, but who also DEMANDS that he himself treat others with respect. You have to project a cool emotionally-unshakable calm that lets your woman see you are IN CONTROL OF YOUR ENVIRONMENT, or she will continue searching for a man that does.
> 
> Emotions, or feelings, are labels we attach to chemical states of our mind (like "love" and "anger", etc); these chemical states are the way our animal mind understands its relationship to its environment. For example, right now you are bummed out and depressed over the situation with your STBX. This is because your brain acknowledges a loss in your environment, and is giving you an incentive to change it. Up until recent history, humans did best when the woman communicated content or discontent with her environment and men ACTED to sustain, improve, or change the environment in response. **EDIT** Think about it... this is one of the primary underpinnings of marriage (at least in nostalgic terms)...
> 
> Regardless of our mechanized and transistorized modern society, this is STILL at the base of human attraction. A man conveying feelings is not good or bad to a woman with certain caveats:
> 1) A woman loves to hear positive emotions about her from a MANLY MAN. It validates her and demonstrates her security in the relationship.
> 2) Emotions not related to her do not affect her feelings for him so long as they dont indicate some innate weakness of character.
> 
> A woman is attracted at first sight to a man who get's results, or appears to get results. The "results" he gets may be different, and what "results" she finds valuable will be different- this, among other things, is the challenge of finding "love."
> 
> Anyways, Im sure others will come along with different views and veritable advice. I feel its important as you move on from here that you work on yourself with MANLY on mind, otherwise I fear you might be in this situation again. Good luck...


Thanks OP. Good advice and something I have been thinking about a lot. In fact just got back from the bar telling people that is exactly what I need to do.
I actually see myself very differently and actually view women a lot as you have described. I have always had the strength to do these things but you know what, I just had no idea about what please women. I had been with only a couple of girls before I got married and in reality we both married projects. She married someone who would smother her with male attention because her dad was never present and I sought continuous approval because my dad was never close with me and I had issues with my mom. That's what it boiled down to.

For me, understanding of all of this is more than enough to enact my male ritual, so in that respect I do not worry about myself. I just didn't get it and now I do.

Cheers,
Poida


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

OptimisticPessimist said:


> At this point, I am more concerned with you gaining some confidence and some cohones to throw the way of your next girlfriend. You are very reflective, but it seems to be a very self-deprecating and negative type of reflection.
> 
> You need to have standards of behavior that others MUST meet if you are to have a woman direct PASSION towards you in the future. Rather than thinking in terms of feelings, I would encourage you to think in terms of results; it is this subtle change of word that is the primary difference between a woman and a man.
> 
> Times are a' changin... A woman is certainly capable of producing results in the modern world, and now she earns more college degrees and more jobs than us men do (at least in the US). That said, there is a difference between modern capacity and innate instinct- a woman is still at her core driven emotionally WILD by a MAN who deals in results. A woman is driven WILD by a man who's confidence spreads to everyone around him. A woman is driven WILD by the man who DEMANDS others treat him with respect, but who also DEMANDS that he himself treat others with respect. You have to project a cool emotionally-unshakable calm that lets your woman see you are IN CONTROL OF YOUR ENVIRONMENT, or she will continue searching for a man that does.
> 
> Emotions, or feelings, are labels we attach to chemical states of our mind (like "love" and "anger", etc); these chemical states are the way our animal mind understands its relationship to its environment. For example, right now you are bummed out and depressed over the situation with your STBX. This is because your brain acknowledges a loss in your environment, and is giving you an incentive to change it. Up until recent history, humans did best when the woman communicated content or discontent with her environment and men ACTED to sustain, improve, or change the environment in response. **EDIT** Think about it... this is one of the primary underpinnings of marriage (at least in nostalgic terms)...
> 
> Regardless of our mechanized and transistorized modern society, this is STILL at the base of human attraction. A man conveying feelings is not good or bad to a woman with certain caveats:
> 1) A woman loves to hear positive emotions about her from a MANLY MAN. It validates her and demonstrates her security in the relationship.
> 2) Emotions not related to her do not affect her feelings for him so long as they dont indicate some innate weakness of character.
> 
> A woman is attracted at first sight to a man who get's results, or appears to get results. The "results" he gets may be different, and what "results" she finds valuable will be different- this, among other things, is the challenge of finding "love."
> 
> Anyways, Im sure others will come along with different views and veritable advice. I feel its important as you move on from here that you work on yourself with MANLY on mind, otherwise I fear you might be in this situation again. Good luck...


Love this post OP! Full of so much wisdom and truth. 


Poida, I'm really glad that the geographical distance from your WW is giving you a more realistic perspective. I think this trip and time away will do wonders for you. 
Enjoy!


----------



## poida

Yes I would agree with all that.
It is true that I was on the path to success in business when I met my wife and also inn the first 5 years of marriage. I got promoted from engineer to head of engineering to commercial manager of my division, with a clear path to General Manager and part ownership of the company. In my early years, I was a strong successful man with true independence. 
It is also true that communication issues within our relationship and my childhood "nice guy" syndrome tendencies causing me the crave attention, combined with my wife's inability to express her feelings drove me down a path of depression.
This depression stole me of everything I had. Confidence, individualism and the ability to express my emotions in a relationship.
So, in a nut-shell, I definitely have to find myself again and find the confident, strong independent person again.
It will take time, it will take commitment, and it will take focus.
Thank you for your clear reflection on what is the reality of what women seek in todays world.


----------



## poida

So here I am sitting at the JFK lounge anticipating what will happen when I get home.
Will she be at the house?
Will she do anything to try to get me back?
Will she ignore me?

WHY DO I CARE? Well, it's pretty simple really. I am still in love with her, and.... I hate myself for it.

Now some of you will shake your head in shame and others (I hope) will have been in my position.

My brain says, just keep moving forward mate, but my heart.... honestly..... still lives in the past. It is a pain I didn't ever think I would feel. I feel so so lonely. I really don't know what to do with myself.

I dare say my surf trip to Indo in a week with 10 blokes on a charter boat is about the best thing I could have done for myself.

But, in the mean time, what I'm thinking is that I get home and if I see her, I just let her have it. Completely confront her, say she ruined our relationship, tell her she hasn't done jack sh*te since, had no interest in R all along, and if anything has put me through more pain in her vain effort to reduce her level of guilt by feigning the process of R when in reality she was long gone. Tell her she was gone a year ago and tell her I don't know how she is going to live with herself.

I think getting it all off my chest right back at her is about the only thing I can do right now to cut my emotional ties with her.

Any alternative suggestions?


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> WHY DO I CARE? Well, it's pretty simple really. I am still in love with her
> I feel so so lonely.


I suggest that what you are calling love is really fear of remaining lonely. She could be a stick of wood but, if she keeps you warm at night, you'd still claim love for her.

Think about it.

btw, WE don't feel shame about this; we feel pity for YOU that you don't honor yourself more.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> I suggest that what you are calling love is really fear of remaining lonely. She could be a stick of wood but, if she keeps you warm at night, you'd still claim love for her.
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> btw, WE don't feel shame about this; we feel pity for YOU that you don't honor yourself more.


I've realised that "nice guy syndrome" is not something you get over overnight.

I found some emails I wrote her when we first started our relationship. Oh my god, what a f*cking push over and suck up. I was apologising for nothing, and worshiping the ground she walked on whilst she did nothing. I couldn't believe it.

I began to realise that she stayed with me because I was basically........well, her personal slave.

The longer our relationship went forward and the more I became independent (although to a small degree), it's clear this frustrated her and she sought this attention elsewhere. I began to realise just how "whipped I was" and honestly I has NO IDEA.

So, you can see my pattern of behaviour has been re-enforced and re-enforced over 12 years. And what does a nice guy do when he doesn't get love back - try even harder doing the wrong things. The lack of response from her drove me into depression and caused her see me as even less of a man than she already did. Wow. I see these things now and this is probably the clearest illustration to me that I do deserve an equal in a relationship.

The most messed up thing is that her animal instinct says to her she wants a "MAN, a LEADER", but her conscious self just wants someone to pander over her, be there for her every need, worship her. Completely contradictory. Essentially, I think that despite the strong shell she surrounds herself with, she was a burning need for "daddy attention". Something she never had in her life and probably explains why she got straight A's her whole life.

It's all so sad.

I will get there and it is truly embarrassing when people tell me they pity me because I don't respect myself. It's just something I have to re-learn and it is probably going to take me a long time.


----------



## happyman64

poida said:


> So here I am sitting at the JFK lounge anticipating what will happen when I get home.
> Will she be at the house?
> Will she do anything to try to get me back?
> Will she ignore me?
> 
> WHY DO I CARE? Well, it's pretty simple really. I am still in love with her, and.... I hate myself for it.
> 
> Now some of you will shake your head in shame and others (I hope) will have been in my position.
> 
> My brain says, just keep moving forward mate, but my heart.... honestly..... still lives in the past. It is a pain I didn't ever think I would feel. I feel so so lonely. I really don't know what to do with myself.
> 
> I dare say my surf trip to Indo in a week with 10 blokes on a charter boat is about the best thing I could have done for myself.
> 
> But, in the mean time, what I'm thinking is that I get home and if I see her, I just let her have it. Completely confront her, say she ruined our relationship, tell her she hasn't done jack sh*te since, had no interest in R all along, and if anything has put me through more pain in her vain effort to reduce her level of guilt by feigning the process of R when in reality she was long gone. Tell her she was gone a year ago and tell her I don't know how she is going to live with herself.
> 
> I think getting it all off my chest right back at her is about the only thing I can do right now to cut my emotional ties with her.
> 
> Any alternative suggestions?


Yes.

You should have told me you were in town and I would have met you for a beer.

But in all seriousness will getting it off your chest make you feel better?

Are you looking for a reaction from her? Or an honest answer from her?

You know her better than anyone.

Will confronting her and downloading get you anywhere?

HM


----------



## poida

happyman64 said:


> Yes.
> 
> You should have told me you were in town and I would have met you for a beer.
> 
> But in all seriousness will getting it off your chest make you feel better?
> 
> Are you looking for a reaction from her? Or an honest answer from her?
> 
> You know her better than anyone.
> 
> Will confronting her and downloading get you anywhere?
> 
> HM


It's for me. It's me trying to stick up for myself. It's to say the things I was too f*cking gutless to say. It's to tell her how it was, how it is and to move on.

You need to remember that whilst respecting yourself comes naturally to you, it is something that needs to be practiced for me at this point in time.

Honestly, I don't really care what she says back. I will probably walk away.


----------



## happyman64

Then if it is for you just do it.


----------



## BobSimmons

Respecting yourself comes naturally to everybody. Hence the reason we dress appropriately, act a certain way in the presence of others. You seem like a smart and educated guy, so where exactly does the common sense end and the lunacy begin?
Why not just give all your money to the next guy/girl you see?
Drive up to the mall and hand the keys to your car to the next person you see
Crazy? Dumb? Idiotic? Absolutely.

Yet you put a skirt on a broad, she can spit on you, slap you, call you the worse names but in the name of "love" you let yourself get caught up in stuff that when you look at it in the cold light of day is crazy, dumb and absolutely idiotic.

Niceguy is a fallacy. Everybody has the capacity to be a nice guy. I'm a nice guy, but mess with me and the hammer comes down hard. At the end of the day, it's pretty much black and white to me. Respect or nothing. I give it totally and I expect the same in return.

You're smart, educated, and got a good life. You could put an ad on the internet and get a whole bunch of good women willing to date you and show you the respect you show to them.

If love is an excuse for people to disrespect each other then I never want to love again. See things clearly. You will walk into the house and she will have done zero work on herself and that's tantamount to the level of respect she currently feels for you. So we can talk about lack of ability to express oneself blah blah blah..black and white pal. Respect.


----------



## poida

Just went on some dating sites and holy cr*p are there some good looking single girls out there.
You guys weren't kidding.
Hmmmm.. I see a way to distract myself.


----------



## poida

BobSimmons said:


> Respecting yourself comes naturally to everybody. Hence the reason we dress appropriately, act a certain way in the presence of others. You seem like a smart and educated guy, so where exactly does the common sense end and the lunacy begin?
> Why not just give all your money to the next guy/girl you see?
> Drive up to the mall and hand the keys to your car to the next person you see
> Crazy? Dumb? Idiotic? Absolutely.
> 
> Yet you put a skirt on a broad, she can spit on you, slap you, call you the worse names but in the name of "love" you let yourself get caught up in stuff that when you look at it in the cold light of day is crazy, dumb and absolutely idiotic.
> 
> Niceguy is a fallacy. Everybody has the capacity to be a nice guy. I'm a nice guy, but mess with me and the hammer comes down hard. At the end of the day, it's pretty much black and white to me. Respect or nothing. I give it totally and I expect the same in return.
> 
> You're smart, educated, and got a good life. You could put an ad on the internet and get a whole bunch of good women willing to date you and show you the respect you show to them.
> 
> If love is an excuse for people to disrespect each other then I never want to love again. See things clearly. You will walk into the house and she will have done zero work on herself and that's tantamount to the level of respect she currently feels for you. So we can talk about lack of ability to express oneself blah blah blah..black and white pal. Respect.


Thanks Bob.
I think what the nice guy book tries to identify a nice guys inability to see the need for SELF RESPECT and seeing to it that your needs are met. Much the same as you have said. Once we see the need to have our needs met ,and that people will like us for just who we are, we have the ability to give "without strings", and to respect people without covert contracts, and to be happy with ourselves. And that view I resonate with. Finding my inner respect again is what it is all about for me right now.

I think a couple of dates to meet people where I can just be myself, without any previous emotional influence will do me the world of good.

And, yes, I guarantee that the WW has not changed one bit, and never will. She has much deeper issues than I.


----------



## cool12

stick up for yourself by not giving a sh*t about the past anymore. you going off on her will just let her know she still has her hooks in you. 

indifference. get some and hold on to it. you can't go back to the way it was. you know this.


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> stick up for yourself by not giving a sh*t about the past anymore. you going off on her will just let her know she still has her hooks in you.
> 
> indifference. get some and hold on to it. you can't go back to the way it was. you know this.


Yeah, you are right of course. I think a couple of dates will completely distract me while I am finding my self confidence.

Anyway better go get on the plane. Talk soon.


----------



## cool12

safe travels!


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> It's for me. It's me trying to stick up for myself. It's to say the things I was too f*cking gutless to say. It's to tell her how it was, how it is and to move on.
> 
> You need to remember that whilst respecting yourself comes naturally to you, it is something that needs to be practiced for me at this point in time.
> 
> Honestly, I don't really care what she says back. I will probably walk away.


I like it. Do it. Just make sure you DO walk away. In fact, keep the car running.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> I like it. Do it. Just make sure you DO walk away. In fact, keep the car running.


Thanks Turnera. See what happens.
It seems that while I am away she is doing her best to pull our friends around her with a view to push me out of our groups of joint friends.
A difficult situation. When do you walk and when do you fight for your mates.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Well, for sure, I would be telling every single one of them what she has done. Don't beg them to choose you. Just point out what YOU have put up with and that you have never done this to her, and then leave them to think about it. Take the high road; those who slink to the mudpit she's in won't be worth staying friends with.


----------



## LongWalk

Poida,

You have grown enormously during the space of a couple of months. At one point your cryptically wrote:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by poida
> I have realised that the deeply personal aspects of reconciliation is very hard if not impossible to put into in words. Sometimes the most meaningful parts of a reconciliation are not words at all.


Turnera immediately knew what had happened.


> So you got laid.


In retrospect you needed to go 180, almost to the point of darkness. From that position of strength perhaps you could have demanded her phone read about the affair. Did you ever get proof that she had sexual intercourse with POSOM? I don't remember but even if she merely traded selfie genital photos, it was an affair. Moreover, she was out of love with you.

When you went to the wedding she acted wh*rish on the dance floor to provoke you. She wanted excitement. A strange man wanting her and her husband fighting to win her back. To the cave woman who runs her cerebrum it was natural. The passion you desire might be there. But if you had beaten up the guy on the dance floor to flip the switch, you might also have ended up in jail.

Your desire to see your wife evolve and grow as person is understandable. Sadly she is not really moving forward with any haste.

You have a good job. You can succeed in dating women with whom your WW cannot compete. Tough luck for her.


----------



## WhiteRaven

poida said:


> Just went on some dating sites and holy cr*p are there some good looking single girls out there.
> You guys weren't kidding.
> Hmmmm.. I see a way to distract myself.


Have fun. Use condoms. :smthumbup:


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

turnera said:


> Well, for sure, I would be telling every single one of them what she has done. Don't beg them to choose you. Just point out what YOU have put up with and that you have never done this to her, and then leave them to think about it. Take the high road; those who slink to the mudpit she's in won't be worth staying friends with.


I agree. 

Also, if a friend comes up to me and starts bad-mouthing another friend, Im going to immediately tell them to stfu. Why didnt your "friends" do this? Maybe they did? If your "friends" are really your friends, they aren't going to ditch you because of some vile BS spread by a vindictive bonch troll. Take the high road and the ones worth staying in touch with will notice.

Ever heard of Dane Cook? He once quipped that the reason women win arguments over men is because they are "mental terrorists." You can throw every logical fact in the book at her and it wont make even the slightest bit of a difference- she wins because she made you FEEL angry and hurt, which validates her belief that its your fault. F*cked up isnt it?

Move on dude. No yelling at her, no fights with these "friends," no thoughts of making up- ONWARD.


----------



## poida

Made an interesting step forward with my therapist this morning. I admitted I still had feelings for the WW and rather than question this feeling he said, lets really look into what exactly that "love" is. He asked me to explain it.

I became clear that a lot of the words I used to describe my wife were not describing "essence" of an intimate relationship with a deep connection.

I used the words kind, thoughtful, nice, giving, generous, comforting. In essence, I was describing the person that my mother SHOULD (but wasn't)have been for me.

He asked me to explain a moment in our relationship when we had a deep connection. I thought and thought and really had nothing. I said that perhaps there was a time 3-4 years into our marriage when I felt a connection with my wife, but it was never right on her surface, it was always in her background, just poking its head out to see what was going on. I couldn't believe it.

We explored how I saw my wife and it became evident that childhood experiences (or lack of) meant that I craved approval and attention and that the "giving" that the WW did for me became part of a "fantasy" for me.

I used the "attention" I was getting and used my fantasy to see this "attention" as a deep connection and love from my W.

And being someone who desperately craved "approval", I became incredibly focused on getting more "attention" and approval which I turned into love and the feeling of a connection. This also explains my difficulty detaching from her as she is still doing "nice" things for me, and I have trained myself to see this as a deep love.

My clearer view of what was our relationship now allows me to see my W's emotional limitations so clearly now. It is no longer baffling to me. It has always been that way. Even now, she keeps doing "nice things" for me, ending messages ending in "love W" and "XXOO". 

I now do not believe that she is doing these things consciously or maliciously and that she also has a warped sense of what "love" and intimacy is.

For her, "love" is a man who will chase her, pander over her, give her attention, lead her, provide for her, and be strong and independent. In essence, her ideal "love" is her dad (who was never there). 

SO..... it has become clear that we both had our own warped fantasy of what love and intimacy was in our relationship, and that our fantasy's were completely contradictory and destructive. It's a wonder our marriage lasted so long. I guess we always got along well as friends and had great sexual chemistry and I guess for the most part that kept us moving along in the fog.

Wow. I'm a bit shell shocked.


----------



## bfree

Poida,

Sometimes in life we gravitate toward those people that fill an empty space in ourselves and we fill the empty space in them. While that all sounds very romantic it's actually unhealthy because you are now placing the burden of your happiness and "completeness" in someone else and vice versa. What you and your wife should be doing is finding ways through therapy of filling that space from within so that in the end you are a complete and total person. Only then are you able to stand on your own and find happiness from inside and only then will you be able to participate in a relationship built on mutual fulfillment and not on dependency.


----------



## turnera

poida, that was AWESOME stuff from your IC.

Do you mind if I copy it and give it to SteveK?

PS: And THAT, folks, is why you go to therapy. They really DO know more than we do.


----------



## turnera

btw, get this book: it tells all about what your IC just described: Getting The Love You Want.

It says it's for couples (the second half is a workbook), but the stuff you learn in the first half is vital.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> poida, that was AWESOME stuff from your IC.
> 
> Do you mind if I copy it and give it to SteveK?
> 
> PS: And THAT, folks, is why you go to therapy. They really DO know more than we do.


Go for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

poida said:


> Made an interesting step forward with my therapist this morning. I admitted I still had feelings for the WW and rather than question this feeling he said, lets really look into what exactly that "love" is. He asked me to explain it.
> 
> I became clear that a lot of the words I used to describe my wife were not describing "essence" of an intimate relationship with a deep connection.
> 
> I used the words kind, thoughtful, nice, giving, generous, comforting. In essence, I was describing the person that my mother SHOULD (but wasn't)have been for me.
> 
> He asked me to explain a moment in our relationship when we had a deep connection. I thought and thought and really had nothing. I said that perhaps there was a time 3-4 years into our marriage when I felt a connection with my wife, but it was never right on her surface, it was always in her background, just poking its head out to see what was going on. I couldn't believe it.
> 
> We explored how I saw my wife and it became evident that childhood experiences (or lack of) meant that I craved approval and attention and that the "giving" that the WW did for me became part of a "fantasy" for me.
> 
> I used the "attention" I was getting and used my fantasy to see this "attention" as a deep connection and love from my W.
> 
> And being someone who desperately craved "approval", I became incredibly focused on getting more "attention" and approval which I turned into love and the feeling of a connection. This also explains my difficulty detaching from her as she is still doing "nice" things for me, and I have trained myself to see this as a deep love.
> 
> My clearer view of what was our relationship now allows me to see my W's emotional limitations so clearly now. It is no longer baffling to me. It has always been that way. Even now, she keeps doing "nice things" for me, ending messages ending in "love W" and "XXOO".
> 
> I now do not believe that she is doing these things consciously or maliciously and that she also has a warped sense of what "love" and intimacy is.
> 
> For her, "love" is a man who will chase her, pander over her, give her attention, lead her, provide for her, and be strong and independent. In essence, her ideal "love" is her dad (who was never there).
> 
> SO..... it has become clear that we both had our own warped fantasy of what love and intimacy was in our relationship, and that our fantasy's were completely contradictory and destructive. It's a wonder our marriage lasted so long. I guess we always got along well as friends and had great sexual chemistry and I guess for the most part that kept us moving along in the fog.
> 
> Wow. I'm a bit shell shocked.


Well, I am totally confused. Your therapist is telling you what love is not but I don't see here what true love should be. As a matter of fact, what you have listed here, if I am not mistaken are the thins listed in the five love love languages.

Where am I going wrong?


----------



## poida

Chaparral said:


> Well, I am totally confused. Your therapist is telling you what love is not but I don't see here what true love should be. As a matter of fact, what you have listed here, if I am not mistaken are the thins listed in the five love love languages.
> 
> Where am I going wrong?


Sheesh. Don't ask me. I'm just a noob to all this stuff.

Today's news is that on Saturday the W has asked to live back at home with me while we are finishing renovating the house for sale and I let her. I didn't feel at all obliged, not at all any need to impress, chase, seek approval or approach her. 
It just felt like something deep down I wanted to do and I'm doing it. It has been friendly and amicable. Not awkward, and I'm not sure where it is going yet.
What I do know is that I must have grown enormously to feel the way I do.
I'm actually not stressed about what happens and even whether there is an outcome. It's an interesting place to be emotionally. I guess it feels....... Rewarding. Hmm.


----------



## bandit.45

Start dating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> ...Today's news is that on Saturday the W has asked to live back at home with me while we are finishing renovating the house for sale and I let her...












/end 3putt photobomb


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Start dating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know what. I'm ready for that. Not a bad idea. Mabel when I get back from my surf trip. I leave this Fri morning. Looking forward to some male pack action.


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> /end 3putt photobomb


Oh, don't be like that. She is doing a lot of the renovating herself and it's a long drive from her other place. It's fair enough in my opinion.
And on the emotional side, I'm more curious than anything to see what she does. So far, totally predictable and hence why it so easy for me not to engage in any way. I'm quite proud of myself for having come this far. I am no longer under the witches spell.


----------



## cool12

plz tell me you'll be sleeping in separate rooms.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> Oh, don't be like that. She is doing a lot of the renovating herself and it's a long drive from her other place. It's fair enough in my opinion.
> And on the emotional side, I'm more curious than anything to see what she does. So far, totally predictable and hence why it so easy for me not to engage in any way. I'm quite proud of myself for having come this far. I am no longer under the witches spell.


I just dont think she deserves it. She doesnt deserve you being so d*mn nice to her! She has treated you poorly... no CRUELLY.. and you let her back in the house?

I really hope you are no longer "under the witches spell" (very good use of witch by the way)- your track record has been less than stellar in this regard.

We all think your a nice guy dude- its just youre too nice and she very selfishly takes advantage of it!

**EDIT** Was it "fair enough" when she was grinding on another guy while dancing right in front of you? You see, she sees no need to be fair, but you simply REFUSE to hold her completely accountable. You might notice that less people are involved in this thread than before- it isnt because they dont like you or because of waning interest- its because your INSISTENCE on being a doormat is frustrating to us. You seem like a smart guy with a good heart who is just going to get SCR*WED until you grow some cohones.. Sorry if this offends you- its tough love brother.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

JustPuzzled said:


> What does Mabel look like?
> 
> <ba-dum chhhh!>
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


+1 


cool12 said:


> plz tell me you'll be sleeping in separate rooms.


No kidding...


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> plz tell me you'll be sleeping in separate rooms.


Oh god yes. I'm not that bloody silly.

I am actually doing this process for me. Let me explain.

I do not ever want to regret anything I have done in this process of divorce. This is because I want to move on with all doubt put behind me. Until now I have done everything I can and anyone who has read this thread will see I have bled trying to save the relationship.

But now I have grown, and I am confident and happy all by my self. I am ready to date again.

Apart from the renovating practicalities, I think that having her in the house for a short period of time satisfies any remaining doubt about giving her every possible opportunity to do good, to save herself and for her to actually attempt to save the relationship etc.

What is important is that I do not care about the outcome, but I do care a LOT for my own emotional security and clarity in the future. I do not want to have a single ounce of doubt left in my mind about divorcing her. Once I am gone, I want to be gone without a single trace of doubt or regret so that I will be happy and care free.

I am doing this for me.


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I just dont think she deserves it. She doesnt deserve you being so d*mn nice to her! She has treated you poorly... no CRUELLY.. and you let her back in the house?
> 
> I really hope you are no longer "under the witches spell" (very good use of witch by the way)- your track record has been less than stellar in this regard.
> 
> We all think your a nice guy dude- its just youre too nice and she very selfishly takes advantage of it!
> 
> **EDIT** Was it "fair enough" when she was grinding on another guy while dancing right in front of you? You see, she sees no need to be fair, but you simply REFUSE to hold her completely accountable. You might notice that less people are involved in this thread than before- it isnt because they dont like you or because of waning interest- its because your INSISTENCE on being a doormat is frustrating to us. You seem like a smart guy with a good heart who is just going to get SCR*WED until you grow some cohones.. Sorry if this offends you- its tough love brother.


It's all good. I don't get offended by it anymore.
I'm happy with who I am now, I'm happy by myself and happy I'm strong and independent. My trip away has put real clarity to my life, who I am and how I respect myself now.

Read my other post and you will see why I have let her in the house. There is a LOT of painting to do and I'm not planning on doing it.

Plus, I'm leaving on Friday morning and will be away for 2 weeks, so to be honest, I'm hardly going to see her.

And when I get back, she will be moving out. 

For me, it's my final 4 day cleansing of any remaining feelings I have for her. Having her in my presence and seeing her doing nothing to try to come back to me only re-enforces my happiness in my choice to leave her.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> Oh god yes. I'm not that bloody silly.
> 
> I am actually doing this process for me. Let me explain.
> 
> I do not ever want to regret anything I have done in this process of divorce. This is because I want to move on with all doubt put behind me. Until now I have done everything I can and anyone who has read this thread will see I have bled trying to save the relationship.
> 
> But now I have grown, and I am confident and happy all by my self. I am ready to date again.
> 
> Apart from the renovating practicalities, I think that having her in the house for a short period of time satisfies any remaining doubt about giving her every possible opportunity to do good, to save herself and for her to actually attempt to save the relationship etc.
> 
> What is important is that I do not care about the outcome, but I do care a LOT for my own emotional security and clarity in the future. I do not want to have a single ounce of doubt left in my mind about divorcing her. Once I am gone, I want to be gone without a single trace of doubt or regret so that I will be happy and care free.
> 
> I am doing this for me.


You should care about the outcome- you should be too confident to ever entertain taking back someone that treats you like she has.

If you are to have any success in the dating world, you must keep this in mind: a woman is attracted to a man that has control over his environment. One way a woman determines if you have control of your environment is to TEST you. The more she can disrespect you, or emotionally affect you (if she is not abusive), the less she feels. A woman FEELS based on her perception of you; the logical words that come out of her mouth are often NOT TRUE when they relate to you- she doesnt KNOW the logic of why she feels positive or negative things about you, only that she DOES.

Your life must have value independent of her, and your attitude must reflect that you have standards a woman WILL respect when dealing with you. You have miserably failed communicating this with your STBX. You must communicate your alpha Poida or youre just going to end up here again!

Good luck...


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> It's all good. I don't get offended by it anymore.
> I'm happy with who I am now, I'm happy by myself and happy I'm strong and independent. My trip away has put real clarity to my life, who I am and how I respect myself now.
> 
> Read my other post and you will see why I have let her in the house. There is a LOT of painting to do and I'm not planning on doing it.
> 
> Plus, I'm leaving on Friday morning and will be away for 2 weeks, so to be honest, I'm hardly going to see her.
> 
> And when I get back, she will be moving out.
> 
> For me, it's my final 4 day cleansing of any remaining feelings I have for her. Having her in my presence and seeing her doing nothing to try to come back to me only re-enforces my happiness in my choice to leave her.


Ok, I like the "she will be moving out" part. You are communicating your alpha better here :smthumbup: Keep moving forward!


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Today's news is that on Saturday the W has asked to live back at home with me while we are finishing renovating the house for sale and I let her. I didn't feel at all obliged, not at all any need to impress, chase, seek approval or approach her. It just felt like something deep down I wanted to do and I'm doing it. It has been friendly and amicable. Not awkward, and I'm not sure where it is going yet. What I do know is that I must have grown enormously to feel the way I do. I'm actually not stressed about what happens and even whether there is an outcome. It's an interesting place to be emotionally. I guess it feels....... Rewarding. Hmm.


Bullsh*t. You did it because you think she's going to want you back for it.


----------



## Divinely Favored

I truly believe if you had of took control of her cell when this started, you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble and seen the affair was physical, not emotional. If you were not close by, I think she would have took ole boy back to his room for a night cap then came back and said she was lookin for you. The evidence is already scrubbed from the cell I bet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Bullsh*t. You did it because you think she's going to want you back for it.


Not exactly.

It is simply a final opportunity for her to do what she should have done right from the start.

If she does what she should have done right from the start, then I am not too proud to assess the pros/cons of R again.

If she doesn't, then I my decision to move on is justified and I carry no regrets.


----------



## poida

Divinely Favored said:


> I truly believe if you had of took control of her cell when this started, you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble and seen the affair was physical, not emotional. If you were not close by, I think she would have took ole boy back to his room for a night cap then came back and said she was lookin for you. The evidence is already scrubbed from the cell I bet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It really matters not to me anymore whether it was physical or emotional. What has happened has happened. It is in the past.

I have worked hard on myself, I have grown and I am happy with what I have done and who I am. That is all that really matters.

I understand that what I am allowing this week is seen as a backward step by many here, but it isn't for me.

It's my way of moving on without a single shred of regret.


----------



## cool12

how many chances does she get?


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

turnera said:


> Bullsh*t. You did it because you think she's going to want you back for it.


I agree sadly. I will reiterate that he said "she will be moving out" in response to me so lets ray:


cool12 said:


> how many chances does she get?


Poida is DONE giving chances ray:


----------



## bandit.45

Make sure she sleeps on the couch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> It is simply a final opportunity for her to do what she should have done right from the start.


Just be very aware that in this instance, her definition of opportunity may be entirely different than yours.

Remember how manipulative and conniving she has been, and how easily she can stir up your emotions to try and get what she wants. 

I'm just saying to keep emotional and physical distance from her.



> If she doesn't, then I my decision to move on is justified and I carry no regrets.


I can empathise with you wanting to have no regrets, but she knows this about you and may use this vulnerability of yours to gain a toe hold on your emotions again.

Be careful is all I'm saying. 

Enjoy your surfing trip!


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> how many chances does she get?


Well, it appears one more.


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Just be very aware that in this instance, her definition of opportunity may be entirely different than yours.
> 
> Remember how manipulative and conniving she has been, and how easily she can stir up your emotions to try and get what she wants.
> 
> I'm just saying to keep emotional and physical distance from her.
> 
> 
> I can empathise with you wanting to have no regrets, but she knows this about you and may use this vulnerability of yours to gain a toe hold on your emotions again.
> 
> Be careful is all I'm saying.
> 
> Enjoy your surfing trip!


I appreciate the support. Don't worry, I'm a country mile further along in my own confidence and security. I'll be fine.

Unfortunately I cracked a rib when I was skiing so the amount of surfing is in doubt. But I'm taking painkillers and will see how I go.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> Well, it appears one more.


What happened to "she will be moving out"??

The ironic part is, you consistently giving her chances is what has screwed you out of ever having a chance.

The only answer is to move on. So many of us have said this to you....


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> What happened to "she will be moving out"??
> 
> The ironic part is, you consistently giving her chances is what has screwed you out of ever having a chance.
> 
> The only answer is to move on. So many of us have said this to you....


No change of plans.

I have said she is to move back out prior to my return from holidays. She is staying only this week to renovate the house for sale while she is on holidays.

The only chance I have given her is this week. No change of plan to that.


----------



## turnera

What if she's still there when you get back?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

turnera said:


> What if she's still there when you get back?


Oh, she'll be there. It's part of her master plan to rope him back in. And it's already working.:slap::slap::slap:


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

turnera said:


> What if she's still there when you get back?


"She'll be moving out" -Poida

ray:



GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Oh, she'll be there. It's part of her master plan to rope him back in. And it's already working.:slap::slap::slap:


I really hope she isnt planning that (though I fear you might be right). I really hope, as sad as it is, that she's just planning to use him for a place to sleep until the house is sold. Maybe then he will really REALIZE that you have to demand respect to get respect.


----------



## bigfoot

You know, Poida, you get a well deserved Attaboy. Sure, you are going close to edge again with her by letting her back in for even a moment. Don't you watch old vampire movies? All they need is an invitation in and its curtains. LOL. Sure, it seems foolish to even consider R with this woman for even a moment, but she's your wife and you have the time invested, so I get that. But, from where you started from, seriously, WAY TO GO! You found your self respect, your manhood, and it looks good on you.

She still knows you and your weaknesses and she will prey on them like lioness hunts down the weak. Don't turn you back, don't give an inch. If, and OMG I hope it NEVER comes to that, but IF you try to R, you better insist on strict compliance with the program. No negotiation, no alteration, no extending the deadline, she toes the line or she hits the road, no matter how small the issue is. Of course, that is one really big and hopefully unlikely- IF.


----------



## poida

Todays update

You know what, having the WW in the house has allowed me to take that last step away from her. I am just plain turned off by her now and the whole idea of being with such an insecure, manipulative, emotionally locked down, clueless person is something I now find impossible.

I confronted her again about the most recent events saying that she had not even tried to talk to me about them, not tried to resolve them, had never tried during MC, had never asked me how she could help me after the affair, had never provided phone passwords etc etc.

The longer we talked, the more frustrated and absolutely dumbfounded I became at her responses. She was saying things like "you just gave me all these terms and conditions". I was completely shocked.

Then came the moment of clarity- This is a woman who has not EVER been able to communicate her worries, her emotions or her deepest issues to her husband.

It turns out that for her, this all started after we had a miscarriage and then my low sperm quality leaving us with little chance of having a child. I would suggest this had a serious and profound affect on the way she viewed me. Did she tell me this? No. Did we agree to try IVF? Yes, Did she back out of it? Yes.

For me, at the same time as the miscarriage, her lack of communication skills mean that MY emotional and practical needs were not being attended to. I would get continuously shut down during arguments so I simply buried my issues. That turned into depression and resulted in a subconscious dislike for my wife. I became a typical nice guy where I just tried harder and harder to make her like me, all the while, outwardly not actually being the nice guy I thought I was. I became passive aggressive.

Anyway, in this moment if clarity, whilst I was listening to her claim that she had tried to save the marriage (whilst having had actually done nothing at all), I realised that this is a person who has not changed, does not take the affair seriously (in fact it's the least of her worries), is more hung up on my in ability to father a child naturally, and blames me entirely for the breakdown of our marriage.

In that moment, my view of her changed, became clear. This is a damaged person who is incapable of sucking it up, accepting the past is the past and working to fix it. She has not grown at all during this process. It explains why she has done nothing, it explains why she is incapable of taking the affair seriously.

In that moment, I knew I was over her. I still have feelings for her which I'm sure are natural, but I know now that deep down, this is not a person I can ever be with again.

So hip hip f*cking hurrah. I'M OVER HER!!!!! :yay:


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> So hip hip f*cking hurrah. I'M OVER HER!!!!! :yay:


Yayyy! :toast:


----------



## cool12

wow poida!
i sincerely hope you feel as good as you sound.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> Todays update
> ...
> 
> It turns out that for her, this all started after we had a miscarriage and then my low sperm quality leaving us with little chance of having a child. I would suggest this had a serious and profound affect on the way she viewed me. Did she tell me this? No. Did we agree to try IVF? Yes, Did she back out of it? Yes.


Bullsh*t. Not only is this an excuse, but this is an excuse that is aimed to hurt you to the very core. Your STBX is indeed a very foul person. She blames you for her infidelity and for treating you like crap- its your fault to her. :banghead:


poida said:


> So hip hip f*cking hurrah. I'M OVER HER!!!!! :yay:


:toast:


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> wow poida!
> i sincerely hope you feel as good as you sound.


Well, of course it is saddening that my marriage has come to a close, but at the same time it's nice to have clarity and self respect in my life.


----------



## cool12

sadness you can get past. 
staying in an unsatisfying rship will slowly drain the life out of you


----------



## bigfoot

You get another ATTABOY! P-O-I-D-A! THAT is some serious breakthrough!


----------



## bandit.45

Good for you Poida.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

poida said:


> For me, at the same time as the miscarriage, her lack of communication skills mean that MY emotional and practical needs were not being attended to. I would get continuously shut down during arguments so I simply buried my issues. That turned into depression and resulted in a subconscious dislike for my wife. I became a typical nice guy where I just tried harder and harder to make her like me, all the while, outwardly not actually being the nice guy I thought I was. I became passive aggressive.


The objectivity in your self-reflection is amazing. Not everyone can glean that kind of perspective from their own experience.

I am sorry for how hard this is for you though.
Take care!


----------



## Lostinthought61

What an incredible insight you have discovered.....I am curious, the moment or moments you got clarity did she begin to see that in you or sensed in you....I subspect that now the you have seen the light that she will feel darkest and will try to run to the light in fear of being left behind....become the observer now and watch what she does....good luck


----------



## poida

Xenote said:


> What an incredible insight you have discovered.....I am curious, the moment or moments you got clarity did she begin to see that in you or sensed in you....I subspect that now the you have seen the light that she will feel darkest and will try to run to the light in fear of being left behind....become the observer now and watch what she does....good luck


Well, I am back from my surfing holiday. 12days in tropical paradise in the Mentawais Islands in Indonesia.

I have had a lot of time to reflect on what has happened in the past, and also time to more clearly understand the personalities and emotional events during this trauma for both myself and my wife.

I am now calm, collected and composed. I am well clear of the fog and all aspects of our relationship and our personalities now seems clear to me.

The results of this reflection are somewhat surprising though and I thought it worth sharing my emotions and events since I have returned. 

I think these observations are worth sharing because I would suggest that it does illustrate the capacity for SOME relationships to be saved after an affair, and in what way that can happen.

I have observed a clarity and calmness in myself that I have not experienced for at least 6-7 years, most of my marriage in other words. I have accepted that I still love my wife dearly and that there are a great many things about her that I like. Upon returning home, I still had little idea of what she was thinking/feeling deep down and this is reflective of our marriage.

Upon returning home I was nervous, but felt compelled to simply say how I felt to her. I told her I was nervous to see her, I told her I still loved her a great deal and that I now viewed the breakdown of our marriage as a great tragedy.

Upon going to bed, I felt compelled to hold her and kiss her, so I went to her room and I did. We lay together and spoke about what had happened and she told me of her love for me and that she was simply unable to be the person that I need an deserve in my life. She said that I was a good person and that she was ashamed that she was unable to ever open up in our relationship.

We both reflected on the events of the last 7 months and that we both felt like they happened a thousand years ago, like a dream.

She said that her inability to open up is how she has always been and that she feels most comfortable living that way. I asked why she couldn't/wouldn't/can't and her response was finally a tiny glimpse into her personality, something I had never hear her ever talk about. She said that she was like that so that she couldn't ever be hurt. I said that what she said was one of the saddest things I had ever heard and I said that I was so sad that she had lived that way her entire life. She responded with "why? this is how I have always been." Her tone was one of normality, as though it was completely normal, and fine.

A great realisation swept over me. This is a person who has clearly experienced some form of deep trauma during her childhood, or is simply unable to cope emotionally with the trauma of being hurt, or both. At that moment I knew that these behaviours are so engrained, so much a part of her fabric, that they are unlikely to ever change. To me, it was one of the saddest things I had ever heard. To live life without ever actually feeling anything, without ever actually opening yourself up completely to someone. To miss out on one of life's greatest gifts - a deep emotional connection with another person.

The discussions I had with my PC about the feelings I had for my wife being part of a "fantasy" were re-enforced. They made sense now. The fantasy I created was one of necessity, to fill an emotional hole in my relationship what was missing, never there.

I asked her how she ever expected to have a lasting, meaningful relationship with someone in future if she didn't ever open up and offer her true self to that person. She said, "I don't know, I don't think I ever will, perhaps I'm just not meant to be in a relationship like that".

We both agreed that it was a miracle that our relationship lasted so long, but we also agreed that it did so because every other aspect of our relationship was as near perfect as we could have imagined.

She told me that she had seen my inner soul the during the entirety of our relationship and was very reliant on how I felt all the time. She explained that when I slipped into depression, she felt an amplified version of it. She admitted that she knew all along through our relationship that she wasn't showing her inner self and felt sad she had the affair as an escape from the problems she saw in the relationship. She admitted that she felt unable to work on the relationship because it involved her opening up and telling me about her deepest worries and emotions - something that she has never done, and didn't feel safe doing so.

And so, here I sit today, with clarity, but sadness, knowing that this is a person that I still hold dear to my heart, that I know I simply cannot have a future with. I know that MY NEED includes the ability to share emotions at the deepest level with a partner, and that my wife cannot offer that to me, or anybody. I also accept that a small part of my love for her includes some aspects of fantasy and were not real at all.

I suppose I also need to admit that some part of me hopes that she would be able to change, but I know that these a life long behaviours, with deep emotional barriers. She might change.....one day. But it will be a life long journey for her, and she seems to accept that she is unable to change for now.

And so, the greatest tragedy of my life seems to have ended. The story is complete.
A chapter to a new life must begin.


----------



## bandit.45

Man.....

I need to take up surfing.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

Xenote said:


> What an incredible insight you have discovered.....I am curious, the moment or moments you got clarity did she begin to see that in you or sensed in you....I subspect that now the you have seen the light that she will feel darkest and will try to run to the light in fear of being left behind....become the observer now and watch what she does....good luck


Yes, as you will gather from my summary above, my wife is responding very strongly to my emotional state because she is unable to express and experience her own emotional feelings for me. I have come to learn that this is how it has always been.

My current state of happiness, clarity and calmness is absorbed and amplified by my wife, and she is now as she was at the start of our marriage, a happy, giving, loving person.

She is very much in love with me again (and me her), BUT we both have come to accept that our relationship dynamic cannot work in the future. She is simply unable to be truly open in a relationship.

Last night's expression of love toward each was indulgent and comforting and despite it's risks, was an important process in completing the story of our relationship.

To me, last night's interaction is very much a part of my closure on the relationship.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> My current state of happiness, clarity and calmness is absorbed and amplified by my wife, and she is now as she was at the start of our marriage, a happy, giving, loving person.



Hope you don't mind me asking this Poida, but did you always open up to her in this emotionally vulnerable way before, or only since you have reached this state of equanimity around your relationship?

The reason I ask is because I am also a BS and my H is, by his own admission, very closed emotionally. Despite his very heavy lifting and the subsequent improvement in our relationship since D Day, I wonder if my ever hopeful continuing on with R despite his emotional disability, is just because I don't have the kind of courage that you have displayed here.

I thought, up until I read your recent posts, that I was staying in R because I continue to live in hope that my emotional openness and vulnerability in our R, may eventually be absorbed and amplified by him. 

Maybe it will never happen.  

Thank your for some amazing insights that have clarified some things for me too.

I wish you well in your future life, wherever and with whom that may be. You deserve your current happiness and calmness.


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Hope you don't mind me asking this Poida, but did you always open up to her in this emotionally vulnerable way before, or only since you have reached this state of equanimity around your relationship?
> 
> The reason I ask is because I am also a BS and my H is, by his own admission, very closed emotionally. Despite his very heavy lifting and the subsequent improvement in our relationship since D Day, I wonder if my ever hopeful continuing on with R despite his emotional disability, is just because I don't have the kind of courage that you have displayed here.
> 
> I thought, up until I read your recent posts, that I was staying in R because I continue to live in hope that my emotional openness and vulnerability in our R, may eventually be absorbed and amplified by him.
> 
> Maybe it will never happen.
> 
> Thank your for some amazing insights that have clarified some things for me too.
> 
> I wish you well in your future life, wherever and with whom that may be. You deserve your current happiness and calmness.


Yes, I would say that in the beginning of our relationship I was emotionally open and vulnerable, but that diminished as the relationship went on.

The problem for me was that I unknowingly began to resent my wife's inability to communicate deeper feelings and really address my emotional needs. I didn't even know this was going on in myself. I hid it well by creating a fantasy that my wife was meeting all my needs and I was happy. All the while, I hid my real emotional needs, which then turned into depression which was externalised in a passive aggressive manner. Remember that I wasn't even aware of this whole situation within myself. I was just a bit unhappy in life and kept buying new toys to try to fill a hole that couldn't be filled.

During this time, my wife (who fed off my externalised feelings) became turned off as I was no longer supplying her with her needs - a nurturing father figure basically.

So, I would say that yes, I was emotionally open and to her at the start, but unknowingly began to give up on this as the wife continued not to give anything back for the entire duration of the relationship.

What I have learnt is that I think that any couple that can open up and make that close communication connection, should be able to work through nearly any problem, and was the motivation for posting my update.


----------



## turnera

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I thought, up until I read your recent posts, that I was staying in R because I continue to live in hope that my emotional openness and vulnerability in our R, may eventually be absorbed and amplified by him.


In other words, you thought you could fix him. How's that working for you?


----------



## cool12

fabulous update. 
your ability to express your feelings with such clarity and composure is really beautiful. not only have you dug deep but you've been able to articulate your findings in a sincere and humble way. 

i want to mention though that this ability you have can be intimidating and even exhausting to some people. my H can be the same way and there have been times i wish he was a little more simple, less elaborate in his communication. i suspect your W might have felt that way before too. it is a gift you have and knowing this about yourself will help you choose a more suitable mate next time. 

welcome home. your trip must have been incredible.


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> fabulous update.
> your ability to express your feelings with such clarity and composure is really beautiful. not only have you dug deep but you've been able to articulate your findings in a sincere and humble way.
> 
> i want to mention though that this ability you have can be intimidating and even exhausting to some people. my H can be the same way and there have been times i wish he was a little more simple, less elaborate in his communication. i suspect your W might have felt that way before too. it is a gift you have and knowing this about yourself will help you choose a more suitable mate next time.
> 
> welcome home. your trip must have been incredible.


Thanks for the good advice. Actually, the timing of your comment is very interesting.

We spoke more last night and had yet another intimate moment. In fact we had sex this morning. Whilst this may seem risky and dangerous, it has allowed her to talk about how she feels for the first time in this whole process, and I am enjoying simply letting life happen for once without trying to manipulate it's path (I'm finding it is so spiritually rewarding and fulfilling to live life that way for the first time!).

She has elaborated much of what you have said about living a simple life. Whilst I still have feelings for her, additional comments of concern overnight include;
"I need someone in my life to push me to be more independent, to not rely on the other person so much"
"I need someone who will always be there to support me, provide me with security"
"I don't want to talk about my emotions, I just want to live my life"
"I don't feel safe talking about how I feel"

I was awake most of the night thinking about these comments (boy am I knackered!). I have come to the conclusion that living life without talking about how we feel might be possible in our relationship when all is happy and well (and it was for 6 years), but the problem arises when the same communication skills are required to resolve issues that arise within the relationship.

I have come to accept exactly what you have suggested - that some people find it difficult/exhausting to communicate emotional feelings and that the next person I meet will also have their unique wavelength. Everybody is different after all and that is one of the beautiful complexities of life.

BUT, in this particular case, I cannot live without communication skills in our relationship which would allow issues to be resolved promptly and completely for both people. If anything, last night re-enforced these key differences between us that wouldn't allow the marriage to continue successfully.

She did suggest just trying to see where things go (with the current intimacy in mind), but I can see it isn't going to work. She is moving out again next weekend (planned while I was away) and I plan to let her go and continue with the sale of the house.


----------



## Philat

Poida,

A very moving and poignant wrap-up of your story. Your emotional health seems very strong. I sense that you and your W might well have a mutually satisfying and amicable future together, but just not as emotional intimates. There are far worse conclusions to a marriage ended after an affair.

Best wishes to you both.


----------



## poida

I also asked her what would be her ideal partner if we were to part ways permanently.

Her response was "Someone who is strong, confident and has money so I can quit work, someone who doesn't need to talk about their emotions, someone who can support me no matter what".

Malicious? perhaps, real world? yep. This may be an extreme case of a woman with high expectations and demands, but it does illustrate points made by OptimisticPessimist in earlier posts - Women respond more to strong, stable, successful, financially stable men before considering emotional connectivity.
With this in mind, I fully respect the realistic expectations that a lot of women have for men, and that emotional compatability is something that is of secondary importance for a lot of people.

What my wife forgot is that I am successful, financially secure, strong and more than willing to support her, but during our marriage, I lost individualism, masculinity, happiness, confidence and career direction. These things I have back now.

My point is that whilst I have a good handle over the emotional aspects of our relationship, I am also mindful of the practical attributes which attract women and are required to maintain a new relationship with a woman. This is just how it is and I accept that now.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> I also asked her what would be her ideal partner if we were to part ways permanently.
> 
> Her response was "Someone who is strong, confident and has money so I can quit work, someone who doesn't need to talk about their emotions, someone who can support me no matter what".


In other words, she wants a SugarDaddy so she can live in luxury and not have to give a sh*t about the man.

I know a woman like that. My DD23's best friend's mother. Has been using men her entire life to fund her so she can play golf and pretend to be rich like she used to be. One guy, a doctor, was flying in to our state to woo her; at one point he asked her to marry him; she said sure, as long as you sign a contract saying you'll give me $20,000/month to do with as I please. Being that she's mid 40s and not NEARLY as attractive any more as she thinks she is, he left.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> I also asked her what would be her ideal partner if we were to part ways permanently.
> 
> Her response was "Someone who is strong, confident and has money so I can quit work, someone who doesn't need to talk about their emotions, someone who can support me no matter what"..


Yeah right. That's just a silly fantasy. And you know what would happen if she achieved that? She would get *bored*. Then once again would find a new reason to cheat. 

Sorry, but once again you got snookered by her psychobabble. You got the "It's not you, it's me" speech. My view from the outside is that she's a spoiled princess. 

I can pretty much guarantee you this: When you find love again (and you will), you will look back on this and wonder WTF were you thinking?


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> In other words, she wants a SugarDaddy so she can live in luxury and not have to give a sh*t about the man.
> 
> I know a woman like that. My DD23's best friend's mother. Has been using men her entire life to fund her so she can play golf and pretend to be rich like she used to be. One guy, a doctor, was flying in to our state to woo her; at one point he asked her to marry him; she said sure, as long as you sign a contract saying you'll give me $20,000/month to do with as I please. Being that she's mid 40s and not NEARLY as attractive any more as she thinks she is, he left.


In fairness, I did ask what her IDEAL man would be so I guess many women would say they would want a man with money, but yeah, in the context of our situation and the discussion, I would agree she doesn't do herself justice with a comment like that. Kind of made me angry, and was a real turn off for me from a relationship point of view.

If asked the same question, I think I would just ask for a woman who is happy, has integrity, can be empathetic, and then I can only hope it is someone on a similar emotional wavelength.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Hi.

I am sorry to hear what has happened to you, but also glad that you seem to be well on your way to better times.

I would caution against having sex with her, you really don't want her to get pregnant at this time...

I'd also strongly recommend some sort of therapy, even for a very short period, so you would have help in transitioning and dealing with everything that has happened.

Best wishes!


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

turnera said:


> In other words, you thought you could fix him. How's that working for you?


I believe it's a work in progress T. As long as I see some forward movement, ( and I do) no matter how small, I will continue.

I don't really see it as me fixing him, although there could be an element of it. But then he helps me with my issues too.



Edit:
Also unlike Poida's wife, my H is actively _trying_ to be more open emotionally and admits that for our relationship to survive (which he wants very much) he needs to work on it. It's just a struggle for him.


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> In fairness, I did ask what her IDEAL man would be


sorry poida but to MANY women, their IDEAL man would at least be loving. she didn't mention any attributes found in a truly sincere, caring person. how shallow is that?

turnera got it right - she wants a sugar daddy.


----------



## lordmayhem

Yeah, she wants to be a spoiled princess with a sugar daddy. Her words show just how selfish and entitled she really is.

Is she at least trophy wife material that a sugar daddy would want? Is she at least hot and can give porn star sex?


----------



## bandit.45

Man I really need to learn to surf.

I could figure out all my life's problems....


----------



## Acabado

lordmayhem said:


> Yeah, she wants to be a spoiled princess with a sugar daddy. Her words show just how selfish and entitled she really is.
> 
> Is she at least trophy wife material that a sugar daddy would want? Is she at least hot and can give porn star sex?


This.
You should have tell her... Do you realize that in order to be the trophy wife of a sugardady you have at least to give something in exchange like to be a f'in porn star in the sack?


She's shallow.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Man I really need to learn to surf.
> 
> I could figure out all my life's problems....


Well, I can't think of anything that relaxes me more.


----------



## Chaparral

Just curious, have you read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER?


----------



## poida

Chaparral said:


> Just curious, have you read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER?


Started, but have been busy. Will finish over the coming weeks


----------



## Chaparral

poida said:


> Started, but have been busy. Will finish over the coming weeks


Weeks?, it isn't Moby D!ck! Before you start talking about emotional needs with anyone read the damn book. You don't know what you're talking about.

A woman does not want a touchy, feely, needy, whiney, man. And she sure as hell isn't going to open up to one. She's the girl, you're the man.


----------



## poida

Chaparral said:


> Weeks?, it isn't Moby D!ck! Before you start talking about emotional needs with anyone read the damn book. You don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> A woman does not want a touchy, feely, needy, whiney, man. And she sure as hell isn't going to open up to one. She's the girl, you're the man.


Settle down dude. I'll get to it. I'm renovating and selling the house at the moment whilst working full time. I don't exactly have a lot of spare time on my hands.

And don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. That's not fair. It's been a long journey and I know more about my needs than I ever have. I also understand more about what a woman wants and needs than I ever have.

Don't misread what I have been saying. I've acknowledged exactly what you have state above. What I have said is that I now know what I want in a woman and that includes the *ABILITY* to open up and discuss emotions *WHEN* a problem in the relationship arises. I'm not talking about touchy feely all the time.

I know what women want a strong, independent leader and I'm absolutely fine with that. It's what I expect.

I just expect/need a woman who will listen to my emotional needs during difficult times. A woman who cannot do that is just a friend and cannot help to solve problems in the relationship that will inevitably come up.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Nothing to add OP,

:allhail:


----------



## poida

See_Listen_Love said:


> Nothing to add OP,
> 
> :allhail:


Are you taking the piss SLL?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

poida said:


> Are you taking the piss SLL?


I had to look up what that means, I get you are asking if I am making fun of you?

In that case: No, I am serious in supporting your view.


----------



## poida

See_Listen_Love said:


> I had to look up what that means, I get you are asking if I am making fun of you?
> 
> In that case: No, I am serious in supporting your view.


Ahhh. Ok, thanks. We are a sarcastic bunch in Aus, so I tend to check these things.

We have had a good week together and I have been going over and over in my head the possibility of making the marriage work again, but I just can't see her ever changing her self centred approach to the relationship. My needs will never be fully met. A guy who "doesn't give a sh*t" what their partner thinks would probably fare better in such a relationship, but I'm not sure the relationship would fare better as a result.

We have had some fun whilst she has been at home, but the final move out is this Saturday and I think I am best off just to let it happen.


----------



## LostViking

Why not divorce her and just live together? Then you can leave quickly and cleanly if she cheats again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

LostViking said:


> Why not divorce her and just live together? Then you can leave quickly and cleanly if she cheats again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:
Stranger things have happened.


----------



## LostViking

Is it true, I heard that a study was done and statistically married Australian women have the highest rate of adultery in the world? I heard it was estimated at somewhere around 54 to 60% of both married and divorced Australian wives polled admitted to having had at least one extramarital affair during the course of their marriage.
I need to find that article.





_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> Stranger things have happened.


Interestingly, our DE FACTO relationship laws here in Australia do provide exemption to couples who have been legally married in the past.

Worth knowing, but I can't see it happening to be honest.

Still have to wait another 5 months before we can divorce legally (in Australia). Best not to let it get messy in that period.


----------



## poida

LostViking said:


> Is it true, I heard that a study was done and statistically married Australian women have the highest rate of adultery in the world? I heard it was estimated at somewhere around 54 to 60% of both married and divorced Australian wives polled admitted to having had at least one extramarital affair during the course of their marriage.
> I need to find that article.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, because Australian women are f*cking spoilt princesses.


----------



## tom67

Sorry I forgot Aussies and Canadians you have to be separated for one year.
My bad.
Some states here have that provision also.


----------



## LostViking

poida said:


> Yeah, because Australian women are f*cking spoilt princesses.


I was surprised at this because I assumed British women were the worst. When I lived in England in the 1980s, I was floored at how loose the morals among British women were. In the college crowd I ran around with the British girls thought nothing of cheating on their boyfriends. They gave it no second thought as they brazenly took other male students home and leaving their boyfriends at the pub. I was shocked. I kept a Dutch girlfriend while I was going to school there. I never seriously dated British girls. I only dated them when I wanted to get laid because they were such easy scores.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

See_Listen_Love said:


> Nothing to add OP,
> 
> :allhail:


Ditto!


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

LostViking said:


> I was surprised at this because I assumed British women were the worst. When I lived in England in the 1980s, I was floored at how loose the morals among British women were. In the college crowd I ran around with the British girls thought nothing of cheating on their boyfriends. They gave it no second thought as they brazenly took other male students home and leaving their boyfriends at the pub. I was shocked. I kept a Dutch girlfriend while I was going to school there. I never seriously dated British girls. I only dated them when I wanted to get laid because they were such easy scores.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm a British born Aussie wife and I would say the British women do have the edge in the cheating stakes. 

Aussie women are definitely the spoilt princesses though.

Pacifying and pandering to the women folk is an art form here. Riles me up no end.


----------



## LostViking

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I'm a British born Aussie wife and I would say the British women do have the edge in the cheating stakes.
> 
> Aussie women are definitely the spoilt princesses though.
> 
> Pacifying and pandering to the women folk is an art form here. Riles me up no end.


And I'm Scandinavian by god! Our women are very sexually liberated, but I actually have known very few who have openly cheated while married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

LostViking said:


> I was surprised at this because I assumed British women were the worst. When I lived in England in the 1980s, I was floored at how loose the morals among British women were. In the college crowd I ran around with the British girls thought nothing of cheating on their boyfriends. They gave it no second thought as they brazenly took other male students home and leaving their boyfriends at the pub. I was shocked. I kept a Dutch girlfriend while I was going to school there. I never seriously dated British girls. I only dated them when I wanted to get laid because they were such easy scores.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I worked in the UK when I was between marriages.

I could not believe that day #1 I had 3 married women openly ask me out. I mean, they didn't even care if people in the office knew if we were boinking in the storage room.

They were so sl_tty it just turned me right off.

I've never in my life seen easier women.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I'm a British born Aussie wife and I would say the British women do have the edge in the cheating stakes.
> 
> Aussie women are definitely the spoilt princesses though.
> 
> Pacifying and pandering to the women folk is an art form here. Riles me up no end.


:scratchhead:

D*mn really?? I figured American men were more emasculated than Australian men, and I figured British men were the worst (of the English speaking cultures). I have actually attempted to research the emasculation of men by culture but it is very hard to find information beyond the US.


----------



## Chaparral

In an interview ayear or so ago, the owner of the cheating website A.M., said the only country that had more women signed up than men was Australia. He reasoned it was because women there are the most "liberated".


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> D*mn really?? I figured American men were more emasculated than Australian men, and I figured British men were the worst (of the English speaking cultures). I have actually attempted to research the emasculation of men by culture but it is very hard to find information beyond the US.


I think being emasculated and being cheat on are different things. It might be that whilst US female culture is more feminist in nature, it might be that there is a high level of respect for the sanctity of marriage, possibly affected by religious tradition/preaching. 

Very very few people in Australia are openly religious or go to church.


----------



## poida

relationshippro said:


> In short if she need a break and you have trust on her then you just give her some space.. and notice during that time if you see any kind of change in her behavior if its positive then its coll but the change is negative then I think you have to think on it. because once a cheater always become a cheater, so whatever you want to do first think properly and then go on some conclusion..


We have been spending time together and I have noticed that;

1. We still love each other,
2. She is really beginning to regret the whole thing and wants to be together desperately,
3. Feels terrible about what she did,
4. Has not changed how she communicates and expresses herself to me.

I have no hesitation leaving the relationship knowing that she will never fix item 4. A relationship cannot work if one partner is not open and clear about one's needs and emotions in the relationship.


----------



## ing

Chaparral said:


> In an interview ayear or so ago, the owner of the cheating website A.M., said the only country that had more women signed up than men was Australia. He reasoned it was because women there are the most "liberated".


That doesn't surprise me. My ex-wife has plenty of married friends who cheered her on with being "strong". It is funny how they evaporate as the realities of divorce become clear. It is also weird the way that men almost revel in being brow-beaten and hen pecked. Almost like a badge of honour. So many women are princess that it is hard to see a normal woman as just that. I am so sick of entitled people. I would prefer to crawl through broken glass On fire, than play that game again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Poida PM ing he is in your country.
It can't hurt.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

ing said:


> That doesn't surprise me. My ex-wife has plenty of married friends who cheered her on with being "strong". It is funny how they evaporate as the realities of divorce become clear. It is also weird the way that men almost revel in being brow-beaten and hen pecked. Almost like a badge of honour. So many women are princess that it is hard to see a normal woman as just that. I am so sick of entitled people. I would prefer to crawl through broken glass On fire, than play that game again!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I have to say Im shocked to realize that Australia is the worst in the cheating regard. As Poida says, cheating and emasculation are two different things. 

Entitlement is a disease. Consider this: there are roughly 200 _billion_ solar systems in the Milky Way galaxy, and there are at least 100 billion galaxies in the known universe. Whats 200 billion times 100 billion? Sorry but I dont feel like using scientific notation atm.

Any reasonable understanding of existence should immediately remove any self-important delusions- we individually as a person are 1 iteration of 1 kind of life on 1 of 8 planets in 1 of 200 billion solar systems in a galaxy which is 1 of 100 billion that we know of. All of our "entitlements" and institutions are but strategies to manipulate the nearly infinitesimal amount of energy we have access to. And for what purpose? That depends on whether you believe in God, the big crunch, the eventual heat death of the universe, multiple universes, etc. 

We should be humble and appreciative of every moment we breath.


----------



## bandit.45

I like the idea of divorcing her but remaining living together. You can bang her when she wants to have sex, or the rest of your time you live your life as a semi-single bloke who no longer really has to answer to a wife. She gets to be emotionally isolated and you get to have more freedom. No more of the burden of role playing.


----------



## treyvion

bandit.45 said:


> I like the idea of divorcing her but remaining living together. You can bang her when she wants to have sex, or the rest of your time you live your life as a semi-single bloke who no longer really has to answer to a wife. She gets to be emotionally isolated and you get to have more freedom. No more of the burden of role playing.


Why bang someone who is banging others, especially if they aren't going to be too excited at the prospect of banging you. With the WAW situation, they are much more interested in any fresh meat. Plus if you would do the situation right, you'd wear a condom with your soon to be ex, because she could be riding the carousel with others.


----------



## bandit.45

How many other guys were there Poida?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> How many other guys were there Poida?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just the one guy who was an ex who left her before meeting me to travel the world. She never got over him fully obviously. It was a short fling, a couple of months and from what I've found out it sounds like they slept together 3 times during that period. As I said in earlier posts, in my circumstance, its something I was willing to live with, but only with a person who can change - which she can't.


----------



## poida

treyvion said:


> Why bang someone who is banging others, especially if they aren't going to be too excited at the prospect of banging you. With the WAW situation, they are much more interested in any fresh meat. Plus if you would do the situation right, you'd wear a condom with your soon to be ex, because she could be riding the carousel with others.


I'm with treyvion.
The other man dumped her (again) not long after the affair started. While she has been living in the house and while she is being nice to me (hoping I will crawl back to her), sure, I have tapped that a few times, why not, I have earned it.

But once she moves out this weekend, I plan to start dating. Once I do that, I know she will do the same, and at that time, I have no interest in going back there. I doubt she will want to either. We still have a lot of the same friends so I'm sure there will be some "naughty" moment in the future at a party or whatever, but I have no plans.

Even this morning she is still trying to be with me, but at the same time, she knows the only way it will work is if I come crawling back because she knows she can't change. Dreaming huh!!!

She has already jumped at the chance to stay over next week (offered to stay over and drop me off during my car service). It's nice to be chased for a change, but I mean..... how pathetic........!!


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> Just the one guy who was an ex who left her before meeting me to travel the world. She never got over him fully obviously. It was a short fling, a couple of months and from what I've found out it sounds like they slept together 3 times during that period. As I said in earlier posts, in my circumstance, its something I was willing to live with, but only with a person who can change - which she can't.



all this time i thought it was only an EA. 
a couple of months and they had sex 3 times that you know of. 

how did i miss that?


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> all this time i thought it was only an EA.
> a couple of months and they had sex 3 times that you know of.
> 
> how did i miss that?


Yeah, well at the start I didn't understand what an EA even was. It just seems to be the popular abbreviation so I just used it. I'm sure that led a few readers astray. 

I mean really, what really specifically even defines an EA. Where is the line drawn? Not that it matters anymore, but I'm interested as to what people see as the line.

She didn't say 3 times. This is my deduction from what she has said, plus the number of visits she has admitted to, plus my factor for opportunity, plus the way she was dropped. The guy is a player. He got a few away, but once he realised she was serious about a relationship with him, he flicked her like a piece of snot. (HA HA!!!!)


----------



## bandit.45

Turn the house into a testosterone fueld man cave after she leaves.


----------



## ing

bandit.45 said:


> Turn the house into a testosterone fueld man cave after she leaves.


 It is surprising how quickly that happens without trying. When you do try.. Boom Chicka wow wow


----------



## poida

ing said:


> It is surprising how quickly that happens without trying. When you do try.. Boom Chicka wow wow


So I'm guessing the tiger fur bed spread is coming back out..!!!
he he.

Well, that's it folks. She has moved out to her new permanent home now. She had a break down the first night and I'm not too ashamed to say I drove over and stayed with her. No sex this time. Just a friend to lean on.

Nothing has changed between us though. The relationship is inherently broken. It still amazes me how clear I can think about the whole thing once I figured myself out in PC.

Home is quiet and lonely now, but I will start dating and move on with my life. I am excited to meet someone who wants to talk about how they feel occasionally. It's something I so dearly want in my life. A real connection. 

In the mean time though, I am really happy with who I am and I am enjoying life again. Everything feels new and exciting. it's great.

So, finish renovating the house, sell it, separate finances and belongings, and file for divorce in 5 months when Aus law allows.

Thanks all for the support. It has made all the difference. Many have warned me from reading web sites and taking them too seriously, but honestly if it wasn't for TAM, I wouldn't have done all the hard things I have had to do to save myself.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> So I'm guessing the tiger fur bed spread is coming back out..!!!
> he he.
> 
> Well, that's it folks. She has moved out to her new permanent home now. She had a break down the first night and I'm not too ashamed to say I drove over and stayed with her. No sex this time. Just a friend to lean on.
> 
> Nothing has changed between us though. The relationship is inherently broken. It still amazes me how clear I can think about the whole thing once I figured myself out in PC.
> 
> Home is quiet and lonely now, but I will start dating and move on with my life. I am excited to meet someone who wants to talk about how they feel occasionally. It's something I so dearly want in my life. A real connection.
> 
> In the mean time though, I am really happy with who I am and I am enjoying life again. Everything feels new and exciting. it's great.
> 
> So, finish renovating the house, sell it, separate finances and belongings, and file for divorce in 5 months when Aus law allows.
> 
> Thanks all for the support. It has made all the difference. Many have warned me from reading web sites and taking them too seriously, but honestly if it wasn't for TAM, I wouldn't have done all the hard things I have had to do to save myself.


This isnt particularly well thought out considering im currently drunk, but I just wanted to say as someone wishing you the best in your future regarding women- you cant be a doormat, you cant let her screw you, you cant let her use you, and you have to make her FEEL like only a swinging pair of cohones can make her feel bro.

I implore you to reconsider your approach to women FROM THE GROUND UP- all of us here at TAM respect that you have a good heart, but unfortunately attraction works from a completely different trajectory. Good in terms of intent is not enough- only from RESULTS, at least a majority of the time.

Best of luck in your future...


----------



## bandit.45

Time to create that combo weight room/ home theater you always wanted. 

Oh and quit hanging out with her. You owe her nothing. She destroyed your marriage. Breakdown? Please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cool12

i'm excited about your new life too. someone will be very happy to meet a man like you, one wanting to connect and share and grow together.


----------



## bandit.45

Don't marry any more Aussie women

Head to Indonesia or Timor and find you a good little island gal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Don't marry any more Aussie women
> 
> Head to Indonesia or Timor and find you a good little island gal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Forget that. They "learn" very quickly mate. I've seen many relationships with Asian girls go sour quickly. They have their girls clubs and come home saying " my friend go new car now you buy me one too." Bah...


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> This isnt particularly well thought out considering im currently drunk, but I just wanted to say as someone wishing you the best in your future regarding women- you cant be a doormat, you cant let her screw you, you cant let her use you, and you have to make her FEEL like only a swinging pair of cohones can make her feel bro.
> 
> I implore you to reconsider your approach to women FROM THE GROUND UP- all of us here at TAM respect that you have a good heart, but unfortunately attraction works from a completely different trajectory. Good in terms of intent is not enough- only from RESULTS, at least a majority of the time.
> 
> Best of luck in your future...


I know, I know...... I get it and I completely agree. I'm not worried about it as (until recently) I have always been driven and successful. I get sh*t done. When I am happy, it's easy. I now have the tools to recognise MY needs and STAY happy.

I only keep talking about the emotional aspect because I've finally realised that it was missing in my past relationship and it feels amazing for it all to make sense now.


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> Forget that. They "learn" very quickly mate. I've seen many relationships with Asian girls go sour quickly. They have their girls clubs and come home saying " my friend go new car now you buy me one too." Bah...



reminds me of an old eddie murphy bit lol.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

bandit.45 said:


> Don't marry any more Aussie women


Hey! We're not all manipulative princesses out to cheat on our croc huntin' men folk y'know!  


Congrats again on your new life ahead Poida. Stay true to yourself always! As I know you will.


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> Forget that. They "learn" very quickly mate. I've seen many relationships with Asian girls go sour quickly. They have their girls clubs and come home saying " my friend go new car now you buy me one too." Bah...


Well....how about Papua New Guinea? The women are butt ugly but you'll get a good wife who can skin and cook you a wild boar without missing a beat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

Haaaahaaaahaaaa.......
You are a class act Bandit!!!!!
Your would be a funny bastard to drink with.


----------



## poida

I'm seriously thinking Swedish. Blonde, tall and with integrity.


----------



## poida

Er, no hang on, they are the worst divorce rate.... oops.


----------



## bandit.45

I thought Aussie women had the worst adultery rate though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ing

Get yourself a Kelpie


----------



## happyman64

poida said:


> I'm seriously thinking Swedish. Blonde, tall and with integrity.


Not true. I think Tiger Woods is available.

She just got her degree, comes with her own money/kids and would probably appreciate a loyal, honest, monogamous kinda guy.

She is Swedish I believe and blond.

What do you have to lose???


----------



## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> Well....how about Papua New Guinea? The women are butt ugly but you'll get a good wife who can skin and cook you a wild boar without missing a beat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife.....


A pretty woman makes her husband look small,
And very often causes his downfall.
As soon as he marries her, then she starts,
To do the things that will break his heart.

But if you make an ugly woman your wife,
You'll be happy for the rest of your life.
An ugly woman cooks meals all the time,
She'll always give you peace of mind.


----------



## happyman64

lifeistooshort said:


> If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
> Never make a pretty woman your wife.....
> 
> 
> A pretty woman makes her husband look small,
> And very often causes his downfall.
> As soon as he marries her, then she starts,
> To do the things that will break his heart.
> 
> But if you make an ugly woman your wife,
> You'll be happy for the rest of your life.
> An ugly woman cooks meals all the time,
> She'll always give you peace of mind.


What a poem. Sadly, there is some truth to it.......


----------



## bandit.45

ing said:


> Get yourself a Kelpie


 Scottish lass huh? Yum, they really crank my scooter. 

But don't they drag you to your death to the bottom of a loch? He's already been hosed by one woman......


----------



## ing

bandit.45 said:


> Scottish lass huh? Yum, they really crank my scooter.
> 
> But don't they drag you to your death to the bottom of a loch? He's already been hosed by one woman......


Well this Kelpie looks like this. A very faithful dog. 

Just don't go there Bandit that thought your having is BAD


----------



## bandit.45

Hmmm. I thought a kelpie was a horse like creature that lived in Scottish lakes that could transform itself into a comely woman. 

So it's a dog breed? Looks like a German shepherd and a heeler got busy and had offspring. 

Sorry for the confusion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

*cough* Latinas!


----------



## lifeistooshort

happyman64 said:


> What a poem. Sadly, there is some truth to it.......


I wish I could take credit not sadly Jimmy Soul beat me to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

As an option I joined a dating site last night. Now there's a way to secure a nice constant stream of rejection!!!!. Oh well, thick skin required if you are going to play in that arena. Seems like some nice girls though. If someone wants a date, sure, I'll go.
But I'm just going to keep out and about and meet girls the old fashioned way.


----------



## bandit.45

I'm not into dating sites. I feel like a piece of meat on display.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Poida I tried go get you to go for a Papuan woman. 

Women with bones through their noses need love too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

Having a bit of a glum day. The reality of being single while waiting to meeting someone new starting to set it. Had a number of declined responses on local dating site which can be a downer. it's a numbers game, I get it, but can't help but thinking that local women are a bit bloody picky. Perhaps the "separated" status is a real turn off. 
If I'm honest, I'm pretty depressed about it all today and I can't even exercise properly with this bloody cracked rib. Aghh.
The fact all my mates are now married with babies means there isn't exactly a plethora of people to hang with during the week. 
Who thinks I should bend the truth and put status as single?


----------



## poida

Well, how about that. Just made date with a fantastic fit looking blonde UK girl. Well that put a smile back on my dial!! 
We are off and going ladies and gents.


----------



## poida

Interesting that nearly all the girls on the dating sites that are active are from the UK.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Interesting that nearly all the girls on the dating sites that are active are from the UK.


Well that's a short plane ride.


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Well that's a short plane ride.


No, they all live in my home city, but the UK is a long way away from Australia to visit relatives mate.

Anyway, I've now got 3 dates lined up. It seems I've changed to slim, blonde, tall blue eyed girls. A nice change. Seriously, these young blokes these days are making a hash of the whole chivalry thing. Actually makes it easier for us older guys. Even 25 year olds are interested......yeee harrrr!!:woohoo:

I also read MMSLP. Its pretty good isn't it. Keeps it simple. Basically, I think all men should be given a copy for their engagement present. ALL men should read this book. No matter how good they think their marriage is.

Anyway, looking forward to meeting some new girls. But I also accept it's a numbers game and I'm not going to have that click with the vast majority of them. But, hit enough golf balls and eventually you'll get that hole in one.


----------



## weightlifter

poida said:


> Anyway, I've now got 3 dates lined up. It seems I've changed to slim, blonde, tall blue eyed girls. A nice change. Seriously, these young blokes these days are making a hash of the whole chivalry thing. Actually makes it easier for us older guys. Even 25 year olds are interested......yeee harrrr!!:woohoo:


Got into a debate with a younger coworker on that one who "Never goes to the same pvssy twice."

Me: What if she is coll sweet sexy sassy smart and seemingly sane?

Him: no

Me: ??? Guess it makes it easier for those willing to go for seconds and thirds.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

weightlifter said:


> Got into a debate with a younger coworker on that one who "Never goes to the same pvssy twice."
> 
> Me: What if she is coll sweet sexy sassy smart and seemingly sane?
> 
> Him: no
> 
> Me: ??? Guess it makes it easier for those willing to go for seconds and thirds.


Hes most likely just blowing himself up to appear like a playboy to you. And even if he is a playboy, the right woman broke my dad's wild ways and thus I was born. He saw her and lost the urge to roam. All it takes is the right woman...

Poida, "being a shoulder to lean on" is being a doormat WHEN that person screws you. Of course, a friend or lover- youre going to listen (always) and provide guidance (sometimes)- but when they do what your ex-wife did to you, giving them a shoulder to lean on is only reflective (in their eyes) of self-esteem that you lack..

Great to hear about the new ladies :smthumbup:


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Poida, "being a shoulder to lean on" is being a doormat WHEN that person screws you. Of course, a friend or lover- youre going to listen (always) and provide guidance (sometimes)- but when they do what your ex-wife did to you, giving them a shoulder to lean on is only reflective (in their eyes) of self-esteem that you lack..


Mabey but the difference now is that I couldn't give a sh*t what she thinks. I did it for me.
I just went with the flow, did what felt right and went there. I didn't ever want to force myself to stop seeing her or whatever because I didn't EVER want to feel like I've missed out on something, or made a mistake.
Since that night (Saturday), I have lost all desire to even hang out with her now and I'm completely comfortable with D. 
I have finally learnt not to fight life, just let it happen and go your own direction. It is such a satisfying way to live I'm finding.

And having let all of the above happen naturally, I now feel really comfortable about meeting new women.

And I tell you what, she didn't think I lacked self esteem this morning when she found out I was going on a breakfast date tomorrow morning (she stayed over to renovate all day today while I'm at work and yes she slept in her own room). The look on her face was priceless. :rofl:


----------



## bandit.45

I'm telling you mate.... Papuan women have a lot to offer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> I'm telling you mate.... Papuan women have a lot to offer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ohhh dear... (shaking head)

The Bandit strikes again!!:2gunsfiring_v1:


----------



## loopy lu

Poida (LOVE the handle by the way...makes me laugh every time)

Dont dispair about Aussie chicks. Not all of us are like the STBX. Dont tarnish us all with that brush. There are plenty with integrity. Chin up dude.


----------



## bandit.45

loopy lu said:


> Poida (LOVE the handle by the way...makes me laugh every time)
> 
> Dont dispair about Aussie chicks. Not all of us are like the STBX. Dont tarnish us all with that brush. There are plenty with integrity. Chin up dude.


So why the bad rap do you think? I have a hard time believing they are more or less adulterous than American or UK women.


----------



## turnera

IIWY, I'd focus on just getting sex for now and waiting until you can say on your profile that you're divorced before looking for new women. 'Separated' is a DEFINITE turnoff.


----------



## loopy lu

bandit.45 said:


> So why the bad rap do you think? I have a hard time believing they are more or less adulterous than American or UK women.


Beats me. If I had to guess, id say its just as prevalent as the US and UK, but more exposed. We certainly dont have the class structure of the UK which might play a part (for example non exposure to save face) but wouldnt know why its different to the US. I know plenty of people who hate cheating...I know plenty of others who have cheated though...my mum and dad did it to each other, my sister, my 84 year old grandfather (!!)...except for gay affairs, for every adulrerous woman theres an adulterous man, so its unfair to say women are the problem.


----------



## Chaparral

I've posted this before but the owner of a$hley m. says Austrailia is the only country where more women have signed up than men. He believes it is because the womens movement is further along there than else where. 

Bodes I'll for the future of families. As shown in our own we are system, when a husbands income is replaced, children go with out fathers, boys become gangbangers, etc.

Biology without morality is a b!tch.


----------



## loopy lu

Chaparral said:


> I've posted this before but the owner of a$hley m. says Austrailia is the only country where more women have signed up than men. He believes it is because the womens movement is further along there than else where.
> 
> Bodes I'll for the future of families. As shown in our own we are system, when a husbands income is replaced, children go with out fathers, boys become gangbangers, etc.
> 
> Biology without morality is a b!tch.


I sincerely doubt this is the case. Dating sites in australia are absolutely dominated by men. Married, attached, separated, single...the whole gamut. Id want fo see some proof of this before id start believing it...I mean, the info comes from someone who trades and cashes in on lies and deceipt, yanno?

A quick google....shows 40% of australians on AM in 2012 were women.

http://mobile.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/the-wives-who-cheat-reveal-why/story-fnet09p2-1226473918864


----------



## poida

A quick search for 34-35yr olds in my area shows 324 males and 249women. I thinks that reflects the reality of the responses I get. Women seem to have plenty of choice, but it isn't completely un balanced. 
Yeah, I thought about the SEPARATED status and sex.
To be honest, I just don't have any interest in one night stands. I only find the sex good in a longer term relationship.
Whatever, I'm just going to go with the flow and see what happens.


----------



## turnera

Which is why you sign up for activities instead of dating sites. meetup.com, activitiesandadentures.com....stuff like that.

Meet someone who enjoys doing what you enjoy doing.


----------



## Cre8ify

Hit the sex issue right between the eyes in your profile and separate yourself from those 324 guys. "Not interested in casual sex. There is only one first time and that is best anticipated and savored."


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Which is why you sign up for activities instead of dating sites. meetup.com, activitiesandadentures.com....stuff like that.
> 
> Meet someone who enjoys doing what you enjoy doing.


The dating site is really only to supplement my other winter activities (mixed squash, mixed netball).

I also have been getting out of the house and going out with mates. Approached a few women on Saturday. Glad to say I've got bigger balls than I used to.

Don't worry, I got this......


----------



## poida

Cre8ify said:


> Hit the sex issue right between the eyes in your profile and separate yourself from those 324 guys. "Not interested in casual sex. There is only one first time and that is best anticipated and savored."


One step ahead of you champ. Any real prospect I say this in my first message to them. 

The dates I have scheduled on Wednesday and Thurs are with women I have told this.

A lot of women are sick of the sleaze and are actually looking for something genuine.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Chaparral said:


> He believes it is because *the womens movement is further along there than else where.*


 Ugh. Not if I've got anything to do with it. I'm hoping it will implode on itself and I'm going to do everything I can to help it get there. 



Chaparral said:


> Bodes I'll for the future of families. As shown in our own we are system, when a husbands income is replaced, children go with out fathers, boys become gangbangers, etc.
> 
> Biology without morality is a b!tch.


Unequivocally agree!


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> One step ahead of you champ. Any real prospect I say this in my first message to them.
> 
> The dates I have scheduled on Wednesday and Thurs are with women I have told this.
> 
> A lot of women are sick of the sleaze and are actually looking for something genuine.


There are also a lot of women out there who are chasing a Nice Guy that they can eventually (when the emotional and sexual hooks are in the right place) manipulate and control to their own satisfaction. 

Look, I know you got this poida.  Just be mindful and wary and take it very, very, slowly.


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> There are also a lot of women out there who are chasing a Nice Guy that they can eventually (when the emotional and sexual hooks are in the right place) manipulate and control to their own satisfaction.
> 
> Look, I know you got this poida.  Just be mindful and wary and take it very, very, slowly.


Thanks for the concern.

I think just knowing that I need both Alpha and Beta personality traits in my life has allowed me to think a lot more clearly about MY needs when I meet new people, and also on a primal level, what women respond to and are attracted to. I really feel like I know how to "handle" women now. The Beta male that nurtures the relationship has always there and doesn't need any practice. But we will see how all the theory goes.

After separating from my wife, my "manupulatormeter" is on max sensitivity too. So funny - I shut down the WW completely a couple of times on the weekend when she was trying to manipulate me (when she was over helping to finish renovations for sale of the house) and it felt f*cking great. She didn't know what hit her. In fact, despite the fact I shut her down, and she was upset by that (in her usual selfish way), I'm sure there was more respect there. Definitely something to consider when entering a new relationship. Not trying to make myself be a bastard, but when someone steps over the line, you need to put them back in their place. :redcard:

He he he.....


----------



## Chaparral

loopy lu said:


> I sincerely doubt this is the case. Dating sites in australia are absolutely dominated by men. Married, attached, separated, single...the whole gamut. Id want fo see some proof of this before id start believing it...I mean, the info comes from someone who trades and cashes in on lies and deceipt, yanno?
> 
> A quick google....shows 40% of australians on AM in 2012 were women.
> 
> The wives who cheat reveal why | News.com.au


Where did they get their statistics? I don't see the upside of the guy pointing out that Australia has more women than men on its website. Why would he pick Australia and not some other country if he just wantd to make up a lie?


----------



## Chaparral

loopy lu said:


> I sincerely doubt this is the case. Dating sites in australia are absolutely dominated by men. Married, attached, separated, single...the whole gamut. Id want fo see some proof of this before id start believing it...I mean, the info comes from someone who trades and cashes in on lies and deceipt, yanno?
> 
> A quick google....shows 40% of australians on AM in 2012 were women.
> 
> The wives who cheat reveal why | News.com.au


I read the article you linked. It reads like a PR piece for the cheaters website. I think the author was enthralled. I guess a moral judgement would have been a stretch to the PC crowd.


----------



## poida

As predicted, I was told I would have good and bad days after the final and formal separation, and finding our my wife is seeing the guy who cheated on me again, today is a bad day.
After living with someone every day for 12 years, the sense of loneliness is starting to get to me. To make it worse, the WW came by and took the dog with her yesterday. I did ask her to but it has had an affect I didn't expect.
I have been keeping busy, going out, visiting friends and going to the gym, but even that is not enough at the moment.
I have had two dates cancel on me in the last week which doesn't help.
Not sure I can handle tomorrow's date cancelling as well - she hasn't responded to my messages so it looks that way.
Anyway, this is just me saying Hi to everybody and thanks again for the continued support.


----------



## happyman64

Patience Poida. Patience.....


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## turnera

That's why you should be focusing on DOING things instead of DATING WOMEN. You obviously have way too much ego tied up in 'getting' dates and that IS NOT HEALTHY. If you can't shrug off a no-show without feeling like crap, you're in no position to be dating yet.


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## cool12

hi poida. sorry you are having a rough day. hope tomorrow is better. 

do your best not to take the date cancellations personally. dating sites are full of people that don't know wth they want.


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## Chaparral

poida said:


> As predicted, I was told I would have good and bad days after the final and formal separation, and finding our my wife is seeing the guy who cheated on me again, today is a bad day.
> After living with someone every day for 12 years, the sense of loneliness is starting to get to me. To make it worse, the WW came by and took the dog with her yesterday. I did ask her to but it has had an affect I didn't expect.
> I have been keeping busy, going out, visiting friends and going to the gym, but even that is not enough at the moment.
> I have had two dates cancel on me in the last week which doesn't help.
> Not sure I can handle tomorrow's date cancelling as well - she hasn't responded to my messages so it looks that way.
> Anyway, this is just me saying Hi to everybody and thanks again for the continued support.



Well you certainly made the right decision dumping her then. The same guy? She is an awful person to do that ever. She must like twisting the knife. I would never speak to her again.

Did she tell you that?


----------



## poida

Chaparral said:


> Well you certainly made the right decision dumping her then. The same guy? She is an awful person to do that ever. She must like twisting the knife. I would never speak to her again.
> 
> Did she tell you that?


Yes, same guy.
When she was over helping to finish renovations to sell the house I asked if she was seeing anybody.
She said YES. I said is it someone I know, She said YES. I said is it ****. She said YES. 
I walked straight out the house and haven't seen her since.
The twisted b*tch is being all friendly on the phone when I call to agree on tradesman/financial issues.
I need to get this house sold and finances split ASAP.


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> hi poida. sorry you are having a rough day. hope tomorrow is better.
> 
> do your best not to take the date cancellations personally. dating sites are full of people that don't know wth they want.


Don't worry. I accept dating sites for what they are and I don't take them personally, but it is disheartening none the less.
Perhaps I'm not ready after all.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> That's why you should be focusing on DOING things instead of DATING WOMEN. You obviously have way too much ego tied up in 'getting' dates and that IS NOT HEALTHY. If you can't shrug off a no-show without feeling like crap, you're in no position to be dating yet.


Hi Turnera,
I am doing stuff (seeing mates/family, going out with mates, gym, squash) but I am also lonely. 
The focus on finishing the house means I don't get to do much on the weekends other than be around my b*tch wife. I'm sure that doesn't help.
Honestly, my ego isn't all that tied up in dating, but it is disheartening when they cancel. I guess it just adds to the hurt that is obviously still there.
Perhaps you are right. Perhaps I'm not completely ready for this.
Not sure what else I can do not to feel lonely though. It just seems that meeting people helps.


----------



## turnera

poida, you're not even divorced yet, are you? You have no business dating. And lonely is GOOD for you. It's highly recommended that when you have a breakup you spend appropriate time alone learning to be ok by yourself. I just don't see it yet. As soon as you can learn to stop talking about being lonely, you won't be subjected to doing whatever it takes to keep a woman happy.

You aren't there yet.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> poida, you're not even divorced yet, are you? You have no business dating. And lonely is GOOD for you. It's highly recommended that when you have a breakup you spend appropriate time alone learning to be ok by yourself. I just don't see it yet. As soon as you can learn to stop talking about being lonely, you won't be subjected to doing whatever it takes to keep a woman happy.
> 
> You aren't there yet.


How the F is lonely good?

BUT don't forget it's a 12 month process here in Australia to even apply for divorce. Then months for approval.
If I was able to hand over papers months ago, I would have done so. I don't intend to wait another 5-6 months before I meet new people.

I'm pretty clear on what I want in a relationship and how I will handle women now.

BUT look, you might be right about how ready I am.


----------



## turnera

Lonely is good because it is ESSENTIAL for you to learn TO BE OK BY YOURSELF. And how do you do that? By BEING ALONE. It's a fear, just like any other fear. Being lonely is good because before you can EVER be a good, healthy partner to someone, you must FIRST be able to walk away if it isn't a good situation. Being afraid to be alone, being afraid to be lonely, only means one thing: that you will sacrifice your morals, your integrity, to keep the woman from leaving you alone.

Being lonely means that you have a LOT of time to think - about yourself. Asking yourself who you are, what your fears are, what your strengths are, what you should fix, what you should let slide, and what you're willing to accept in a woman - so that when you finally DO get with a woman, you will never again be in this position.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Lonely is good because it is ESSENTIAL for you to learn TO BE OK BY YOURSELF. And how do you do that? By BEING ALONE. It's a fear, just like any other fear. Being lonely is good because before you can EVER be a good, healthy partner to someone, you must FIRST be able to walk away if it isn't a good situation. Being afraid to be alone, being afraid to be lonely, only means one thing: that you will sacrifice your morals, your integrity, to keep the woman from leaving you alone.
> 
> Being lonely means that you have a LOT of time to think - about yourself. Asking yourself who you are, what your fears are, what your strengths are, what you should fix, what you should let slide, and what you're willing to accept in a woman - so that when you finally DO get with a woman, you will never again be in this position.


I hear you but I guess the difference is that I feel like have already been through all those feelings.

I've figured out who I am, reflected on what happened in my marriage, dealt with the grief of the situation, clearly understood what my role was in the relationship breakdown, found myself, know what I want in life, understood my need for a better alpha/beta balance, know what I want in a woman, know how to ensure MY needs are met in a relationship, know where to draw the line in a relationship, know what women respond to sexually and practically, and understand what isn't healthy in a woman's personality or a relationship.

I'm happier than I have every been, and quite happy to be alone when I'm busy. It's just those quiet times when it's easy to reflect on the past. 

It's just been a long time (7 months) without any intimate interaction with a woman and everybody needs that at some point.

I really feel like I'd start to become a bit outcast if I wait too long. Surely that is a factor.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> As predicted, I was told I would have good and bad days after the final and formal separation, and finding our my wife is seeing the guy who cheated on me again, today is a bad day.


Pretty fast huh? Just last week you were saying that she said she regrets the whole affair and OM had dumped her. I don't think the affair ever really ended and they had just taken it underground, which explains why she never really did the work to reconnect with you. Its not a coincidence that she's seeing OM again, the difference this time is that there's a formal separation now.


----------



## Ripper

Chaparral said:


> Well you certainly made the right decision dumping her then. The same guy? She is an awful person to do that ever.


Agreed.

At least it will remove all doubt that cutting loose was the right decision. 

Dating sites suck for men. Bars and clubs are only good for hookups. For a relationship try a hobby that has a fair number of female participates. 

If you ever want to feel like a piece of meat, go to a new church. Those girls are ravenous.


----------



## poida

lordmayhem said:


> Pretty fast huh? Just last week you were saying that she said she regrets the whole affair and OM had dumped her. I don't think the affair ever really ended and they had just taken it underground, which explains why she never really did the work to reconnect with you. Its not a coincidence that she's seeing OM again, the difference this time is that there's a formal separation now.


I think she stopped seeing him, but yeah, I think it was always her plan to go back.


----------



## poida

Ripper said:


> Agreed.
> 
> At least it will remove all doubt that cutting loose was the right decision.
> 
> Dating sites suck for men. Bars and clubs are only good for hookups. For a relationship try a hobby that has a fair number of female participates.
> 
> If you ever want to feel like a piece of meat, go to a new church. Those girls are ravenous.


Yeah, I need to start thinking about some more mixed team sports or something.

I do mixed squash, but the turnover is low.


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> I hear you but I guess the difference is that I feel like have already been through all those feelings.
> 
> 
> I really feel like I'd start to become a bit outcast if I wait too long. Surely that is a factor.


many women would be thrilled to find a man that waited a while before hooking up with the first available piece of ass.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> I think she stopped seeing him, but yeah, I think it was always her plan to go back.


Even if they weren't shagging, the affair was still going on in her head. And they may have been in contact by other covert means. This is why she couldn't reconnect with you.

That's the reason I only advocate R if the WS is willing to do EVERYTHING to reconcile and help the BS recover. If she was truly remorseful, she would be moving mountains to help heal the marriage. From your first post, I could see she was still emotionally attached to the OM.


----------



## poida

lordmayhem said:


> Even if they weren't shagging, the affair was still going on in her head. And they may have been in contact by other covert means. This is why she couldn't reconnect with you.
> 
> That's the reason I only advocate R if the WS is willing to do EVERYTHING to reconcile and help the BS recover. If she was truly remorseful, she would be moving mountains to help heal the marriage. From your first post, I could see she was still emotionally attached to the OM.


I'm sure you are right and I always thought so. 

I think that once he dumps her again (which he will) and the emotional attachment disappears, she is really going to regret her decisions and finally feel REALLY ****ty about it.

F her.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> I'm sure you are right and I always thought so.
> 
> I think that once he dumps her again (which he will) and the emotional attachment disappears, she is really going to regret her decisions and finally feel REALLY ****ty about it.
> 
> F her.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> I'm sure you are right and I always thought so.
> 
> I think that once he dumps her again (which he will) and the emotional attachment disappears, she is really going to regret her decisions and finally feel REALLY ****ty about it.
> 
> F her.


The question is...when that happens, and she comes running or calling you, what are you going to do? For the last 4 months people have been telling you to detach, and you say you're good at the 180, but your resolve crumbles when she starts with the fake remorse. 

I had to re-read your thread from the beginning, and now I can definitely say the affair was never over.


----------



## poida

lordmayhem said:


> The question is...when that happens, and she comes running or calling you, what are you going to do? For the last 4 months people have been telling you to detach, and you say you're good at the 180, but your resolve crumbles when she starts with the fake remorse.
> 
> I had to re-read your thread from the beginning, and now I can definitely say the affair was never over.


Yeah you are right. I think the same now. It was never over in her head. She was pining after him the whole time and MC was just a huge inconvenience. She really hated faking R.

The difference between a month ago and now? - I actually hate her now. She has already tried to be friends over the last week and I have shut it down and walked away. Even now she wants to finish the renovations this weekend "together". I told her "no thanks, you do that room and I'll do another or work outside". 

For most of this post, I expressed that I didn't have a major issue with the fact she has had sex with another man. At the time, that was true.

But now, it completely disgusts me. THAT is the most powerful thing that makes me hate her now and prevents me from even entertaining her approaches in the future.

The fact she is now back with the same guy again - well, that is just f*cking insulting. To do that and try to be friends!!! What a total b*tch.

I don't want this to get nasty so I'm just trying to keep it amicable, but boy is she making it hard.

As I said, F her.


----------



## poida

Oh, I forgot to give you guys my date wrap.
First, I went to the shops and went to a quite expensive fashion outlet. There was a gay guy there who I explained my situation to and he just about wet himself with excitement. "Lets get you pretty big boy!" he says....haaaa haaa haa. Anyway, the guy knew what he was doing and I was looking pretty damn good (if I do say so myself) with a new top to toe outfit.
I went to the bar and met with the date, a very attractive, tall, blonde girl. Immediately I felt no connection, but we had a few drinks together and chatted. I told her that I didn't have that connection with her and said that I could also see she didn't have one either. She said it was the first time anyone had told her that, but she felt relieved and we actually had another drink and chatted about relationships, sex, etc etc
Anyway, she left and I went to the bar. And for the first time in my life, my Alpha male was out baby! I had not a single concern about approaching women and spoke with the three most attractive girls at the bar. All were very nice and I made sure they knew I had good intentions, but I was just meeting people. I got the number from one of them and we will meet up some time for dinner.

So, the this morning I awoke with a new feeling. Contentment.
I was content with just being by myself, having breakfast by myself, having a morning walk with the dog by myself. 

I wanted to report this feeling because Turnera warned me that I wasn't ready for dating. Look, that may be, but I think that actually meeting people that I have no connection with conditions me to feel like I'm not missing out on anything being single and living alone. It is teaching me that it's not like I'm going to go out and stumble across the love of my life and that person is going to give me emotional support. In fact, it is teaching me to be brave, strong and independent.

So, whilst I agree in some ways with Turnera, I think that a bit of dating is doing more good for my confidence and independence than emotional harm.

Anyway, I have another date tonight with an even hotter girl but I think I'll just take it easy after that and meet new people occasionally. I'm also a very social person so I do enjoy just meeting new people and I'd be open to a friendship at the moment.

Just wanted to share that with you all.


----------



## Chaparral

Some folks think a person should not date until the divorce is final. For me that is just a legal technicallity when it comes to infidelity. As far as I'm concerned, the marriage is divorced as soon as one partner breaks their vows.


----------



## TheBaxter

"I'm sure you are right and I always thought so. 

I think that once he dumps her again (which he will) and the emotional attachment disappears, she is really going to regret her decisions and finally feel REALLY ****ty about it.

F her."

No she won't. She will just go out and find herself another sucker. Quit being a sucker friend. You deserve better from life. She's trash really and you need to take her out of that shrine and stop worshipping her


----------



## TheBaxter

"So, whilst I agree in some ways with Turnera, I think that a bit of dating is doing more good for my confidence and independence than emotional harm."

You should date as many women as you can. I did and it helped me a lot.


----------



## turnera

poida, hitting on women and going out on A date or two is fine. It's when you start talking, texting, and seeing them every day that you get in trouble. I usually tell people that when you start dating, try not to see that person more than once every 2 or 3 weeks -if you do it more than that, you start those PEA chemicals flowing, whether they belong or not. And we all know where that leads. I see it all.the.time, where you'll SAY you'll take it slow, but then the attention and the feel-good and the high becomes too addicting so you don't take it slow and next thing you know, SHE at least is expecting more from you, even though you told her up front you weren't looking for serious. Just take it slow, ok? There's no rush.


----------



## turnera

TheBaxter said:


> "So, whilst I agree in some ways with Turnera, I think that a bit of dating is doing more good for my confidence and independence than emotional harm."
> 
> You should date as many women as you can. I did and it helped me a lot.


To me, this 'dating' is different from the dating I discuss, wherein you see one women every other night and become exclusive. I'm fine with poida hitting the bars and picking up women and building his ego. To me, that's not dating, that's hooking up. Just not the same one every time.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> Yeah you are right. I think the same now. It was never over in her head. She was pining after him the whole time and MC was just a huge inconvenience. She really hated faking R.


Well, it took you four months for you to see what we saw from the beginning. Sometimes you are too close to the situation to see things clearly. It helps that you came here for an outside perspective from people who have been in your shoes. But like you said, you had to give it one last shot. 



poida said:


> The fact she is now back with the same guy again - well, that is just f*cking insulting. To do that and try to be friends!!! What a total b*tch.
> 
> I don't want this to get nasty so I'm just trying to keep it amicable, but boy is she making it hard.
> 
> As I said, F her.


Definitely agree there. It's so fracking insulting, knowing she faked R the entire time, hurting you even more and prolonging the agony. That's why MC is only useful if the affair is TRULY over and NC is fully established, and the WS is truly remorseful. If the WS still has their head in the affair, then MC becomes only a waste of money and time. 

If you look through the threads hard enough, you will see people who were in similar situations as yours: The WS will not reconnect with the BS after the affair is "supposedly" over. In just about every single one of those cases, the affair was never over for the WS, that they kept in contact secretly with their AP, or were still emotionally attached.


----------



## Marduk

Dating is good. Helped me a lot in my D.

Just don't fall for the first one that comes along. Or the second or the third.

Just have fun and know that you'll only be alone if you choose to be. Figure out what you really want.

When you know it, you'll find it.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> poida, hitting on women and going out on A date or two is fine. It's when you start talking, texting, and seeing them every day that you get in trouble. I usually tell people that when you start dating, try not to see that person more than once every 2 or 3 weeks -if you do it more than that, you start those PEA chemicals flowing, whether they belong or not. And we all know where that leads. I see it all.the.time, where you'll SAY you'll take it slow, but then the attention and the feel-good and the high becomes too addicting so you don't take it slow and next thing you know, SHE at least is expecting more from you, even though you told her up front you weren't looking for serious. Just take it slow, ok? There's no rush.


Yep, agreed. I can see the danger of that. I'm just enjoying going out and casually meeting new people so I will just keep doing that.

And hey, if one wants a bit of one time action, who am I to argue?


----------



## poida

It seems I am entering a new phase in dealing with the events of the last 6 months. The WW was at the house on Saturday renovating and I finally told her that I now hated her and that I didn't like her. She took a defensive and Even aggressive response. "Do I hear what I just said!!!" Etc.
I just said " I don't care, it's not my problem now, go cry to your boyfriend" she yelled and screamed, and ran off. Then a funny thing happenned. She came back and apologised for speaking to me like that. What?????? Seems like finally some respect... Not sure really.

I'm really starting to hate her now and I'm seriously thinking about my legal options now. I'm sure this anger a a natural and likely healthy stage to go through but if anyone has advice about to harness those feelings in a positive way. I would like to hear it. I'm going back to counselling tomorrow because I don't like this feeling much.


----------



## turnera

People are often afraid to be angry. Try to remember that, before the last couple centuries, we didn't try to hide our feelings so much. People dueled. People fought. You didn't get arrested just for saying mean things. So when we feel anger nowadays, we get scared. 

Don't be. As you said, channel it to protect you, as that's what anger is for. Figure out what you want in life - without thinking of HER and HER needs - and map out how to get it (legally, philosophically, actually). Set out your plan and the steps you need to take and get started.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> I'm really starting to hate her now and I'm seriously thinking about my legal options now. I'm sure this anger a a natural and likely healthy stage to go through but if anyone has advice about to harness those feelings in a positive way. I would like to hear it. I'm going back to counselling tomorrow because I don't like this feeling much.


Indeed, the anger phase is a natural phase of the grieving process. Use the anger that you have to bolster your determination to push thru the divorce process. The emotional roller coaster is never over, its only that the highs and lows start to even out over time. Its when you are at the low points, that you need your anger to prevent you from being taken advantage of. For example, when you're feeling weak and want to take her back or empathize with her or listen to how difficult she has it, use your anger to remember why you're in this position in the first place and the suffering you went thru in False R.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> The WW was at the house on Saturday renovating and I finally told her that I now hated her and that I didn't like her. She took a defensive and Even aggressive response. "Do I hear what I just said!!!" Etc.
> I just said " I don't care, it's not my problem now, go cry to your boyfriend" she yelled and screamed, and ran off. Then a funny thing happenned. She came back and apologised for speaking to me like that. What?????? Seems like finally some respect... Not sure really.


This gives you a glimpse into her thought process. How dare you be angry with her. Yes, that DOES indeed show how little respect she has for you. It really shows how little she thought about your pain and suffering caused by her betrayal. Look at the situation. She cheats on you, gets back with the OM (if it was really over in the first place), and thinks that she can just come into the house for the renovation and you're supposed to just be fine with it. See how self centered that really is?


----------



## LongWalk

> I caved again and asked her to my cousins wedding.
> I guess I ws exhausting all opportunities for her to show and do the right thing. *Things were going well and then around 10pm, I come back to the dance floor and she is dancing with another guy. The guy that everybody knows is single and player. Not just dancing but very dirty dancing. Disgraceful. My whole family was standing there open mouthed. I heard third hand that my mum had called her a dirty sl*twhich is most unlike her. You can imagine how devastating and embarrassing this was for me.*
> I walked up and calmly asked what she was doing. She started arguing back. I said "it's over Jac", sl*t about all you like.
> I went and sat out the back, she followed and basically just started arguing with me. I just stuck to my guns. She said I'm leaving, I said do what you want.
> My family came in and supported me as I was a mess.
> We all went back to the hotel. My sister took me back to my room. The WW was there. I calmly packed my things and left. She begged me not to leave and blocked the door. I pushed her out of my way and left to stay in my sisters rom. She called my mobile a dozen times, knocked on my sisters room, called from reception and sent messages to see her in the morning.
> 
> I ignored it all and drove home alone in the morning.


Once you posted this, all one could think was this woman is self destructive.


----------



## happyman64

Poida
You are going to be fine. 

Now get that divorce done. Clean out the house. Settle the accounts. 

Then never talk to her again. 

It worked for me.

HM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

"To let yourself feel anger is to allow one to find one's voice."

This week has been an exploration of anger. My PC has pushed me hard and once again, he is a bl**dy genius. For the first time in my life I have allowed myself to deeply experience my feelings of anger for my wife. Rather than rage, I find peace. It is only through suppression of our feelings that we feel frustration, stress and powerlessness over rage. This peace is a truly an amazing feeling. No longer will another person control my feelings. I am finally my own man.


----------



## badmemory

poida said:


> I'm really starting to hate her now and I'm seriously thinking about my legal options now. I'm sure this anger a a natural and likely healthy stage to go through but i*f anyone has advice about to harness those feelings in a positive way.* I would like to hear it. I'm going back to counselling tomorrow because I don't like this feeling much.


Anger in a BS can be a powerful motivator; but everyone has a different emotional make up. For some it takes months for the anger to overtake the hurt, the blow to self confidence and the devastation. 

Once it has taken over, it has to be controlled and used only for motivation, to do what you should be doing. I don't have any insightful ways to tell you how to control it, except that you may be the type that has to continually remind yourself to "be smart"; to "be indifferent". Also try avoiding her as much as you can.

Telling her you hate her may make you feel good for the moment, but it's not smart. It's showing her a personal side of yourself that she no longer has the privilege to see. You want to show her you don't need her, you don't want her, that you'll be fine without her; and that you want to get away from her permanently - as soon as possible. That's the indifference you're aiming for.

Keep chopping.


----------



## poida

badmemory said:


> Anger in a BS can be a powerful motivator; but everyone has a different emotional make up. For some it takes months for the anger to overtake the hurt, the blow to self confidence and the devastation.
> 
> Once it has taken over, it has to be controlled and used only for motivation, to do what you should be doing. I don't have any insightful ways to tell you how to control it, except that you may be the type that has to continually remind yourself to "be smart"; to "be indifferent". Also try avoiding her as much as you can.
> 
> Telling her you hate her may make you feel good for the moment, but it's not smart. It's showing her a personal side of yourself that she no longer has the privilege to see. You want to show her you don't need her, you don't want her, that you'll be fine without her; and that you want to get away from her permanently - as soon as possible. That's the indifference you're aiming for.
> 
> Keep chopping.


Yes, that is the message I came away from PC yesterday with. Yelling and screaming wouldn't make any difference.
Finding my voice is more important. I need to remind myself that anger can be used as a tool to find powerful and meaningful words. Words that will get my needs met.

Right now, it's about me finding my voice again and that is my focus.


----------



## poida

And as the king once said;
“Let no man pull you so low as to hate him"


----------



## bandit.45

Spit on the ground in front of her next time you see her. It's violent without the violence, and sends a clear message. Let her know there will be no friendship from this point forwards. Paint yer balls red and hang them out for her to see. 

Just don't let her kick them.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Spit on the ground in front of her next time you see her. It's violent without the violence, and sends a clear message. Let her know there will be no friendship from this point forwards. Paint yer balls red and hang them out for her to see.
> 
> Just don't let her kick them.


:rofl: You gotta laugh or you'll cry.


----------



## lordmayhem

You know, I really don't see anything wrong with venting your anger towards her. I think it helps with closure, getting to say the things you've wanted to say, instead of bottling it up. Get it off your chest if you need to. She needs to know what a POS she is.


----------



## poida

lordmayhem said:


> You know, I really don't see anything wrong with venting your anger towards her. I think it helps with closure, getting to say the things you've wanted to say, instead of bottling it up. Get it off your chest if you need to. She needs to know what a POS she is.


Because it won't actually ever make me feel better. I know that now. I think I just need to focus on separating finances and selling the house first. Don't need to make my life more difficult right now.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> Because it won't actually ever make me feel better. I know that now. I think I just need to focus on separating finances and selling the house first. Don't need to make my life more difficult right now.


If that works for you, by not saying anything, then so be it. Different strokes for different folks. Throughout your whole thread, it seems to appear to me that you have a passive-aggressive type personality. I can see why that would work for you.


----------



## poida

lordmayhem said:


> If that works for you, by not saying anything, then so be it. Different strokes for different folks. Throughout your whole thread, it seems to appear to me that you have a passive-aggressive type personality. I can see why that would work for you.


Yeah, learning to "sit with" emotions rather than blocking them or locking them down has been a big part of my recovery and personal growth.

To sit with anger and really explore the feelings, I am able to work out a plan that suits ME for the future, rather than simply become frustrated, depressed, action-less and passive aggressive as I did in the past.

It has been the single most difficult yet rewarding feeling I have ever had.


----------



## turnera

I'm a stuffer. NEVER show my emotions unless I'm drunk or dead tired and can't control. My H shows and feels his emotions as soon as they come. Just bursts them out, no matter who they hurt. Now, of course his way can be painful for others or cause problems for him (there's a good middle ground, of course), but guess which one of us has all the physical and mental issues? Yep, me.


----------



## poida

OK, so I'm still on the see saw of emotions this week. Swinging between hatred and dis-interest to even reminiscing of better times.
I have begun to accept that this is a normal process and will take a long time.
I'm not even sure residual feelings of this process will ever go away.
I think back to the shock of when I first found out about this and I was literally shaking beyond control and vomiting. Wow...
I'm beginning to see how thinks like the trauma of war and death of a close person can be deeply traumatising.
Two more dates this week. Approaching them as a bit of fun on the town meeting new people.
I've realised I'm really not ready to meet the person I want to be with yet.


----------



## bandit.45

Take yer time Poida. Take yer time. When the right woman comes along you'll know in about a half second.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

Yeah well it was like that the firs time and look how that turned out.........aghhh.
Anyway. Date number 3 tonight and 4 on Friday.


----------



## treyvion

poida said:


> Yeah well it was like that the firs time and look how that turned out.........aghhh.
> Anyway. Date number 3 tonight and 4 on Friday.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

poida said:


> Yeah well it was like that the firs time and look how that turned out.........aghhh.
> Anyway. Date number 3 tonight and 4 on Friday.



Yup, cant go off the strongest draw of attraction. How is this
person? How do they interact with someone like me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> Yeah well it was like that the firs time and look how that turned out.........aghhh.
> Anyway. Date number 3 tonight and 4 on Friday.


If you fall off the horse......


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> If you fall off the horse......


Yes, indeed.

Last night I met a really lovely gal and we had a great time. Chemistry is there and you know when you like someone when you feel calm and comfortable near them.
I nice kiss at the end of the night.
I plan to see her again and start a friendship.


----------



## Cabsy

Good luck, Poida. I just finished reading some of your story and feel a lot of where you're coming from.

Happy hunting 
Find one you deserve.


----------



## poida

Well, I felt compelled to write an update, because a lot has happened emotionally over the weekend.

If I had to emphasise anything, it would be that the name of this forum is entirely relevant, because anyone who has been cheated on is "COPING WITH INFIDELITY".

And COPING is all I am managing at the moment. I thought I was moving on, I thought I was going to be able to push past the hurt and focus on the future, I thought I was doing well meeting new people, but here I am on Monday morning after somewhat of a breakdown yesterday.

The WW was over at the house helping to finish renovations and for me this is always upsetting, but yesterday I had finally had enough and a trigger went off........

After most of a day around her (being all happy), I lost my sh*t. I yelled at her, I smashed some wood I was working on, I told her she was a complete and utter wh*re, that she had no place in my life, that I never EVER wanted to see her again, especially never at the sport club we both go to, that she had totally f*cked my life and didn't deserve to be shat on from a great height. I told her to go and get f*cked and go home. I guess I broke down after that and walked away and sat by myself for a good 30 minutes.

After that I went back to work and........ well, I felt... better. Like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders, like I had finally said what I had never said, and whilst I still felt awful, I felt better.

The WW had not left, and in fact was quite humbled by the whole rant. In fact she left to get more paint and returned with shopping for me. When she left she walked up to me and hugged me hard. I didn't know what to do. I felt numb and just stood there. I'm not sure the hug helped, but I guess it felt better for her to respect me a little more in that moment than had I said nothing.

So, I'm not sure what all this means..... perhaps it's another baby step forward in what is inevitably a very difficult journey.


----------



## bandit.45

Don't read much into it. She's not sorry for what she did. It doesn't mean she loves you. The hug was her once again taking control. Understand that. With cheaters it's all about trying to control things. To her you were a little child throwing a tantrum. She was attempting to get you back under control so she would not have to deal with you anymore and so she would not feel guilty.

Don't ever let her hug you again. That was a stupid thing to do. She's your enemy Poida , not your friend. She won that bout.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

And you can bet she's telling all her friends how you verbally abused her and threatened her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Poida

We all know it sucks.

Keep the focus on you. Soon you will never need to see or speak to her again.

Get to that place.

HM


----------



## turnera

Anger is good for you.


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> Anger is good for you.


Not when he goes off on her. Just gives her more ammo to use against him. He needs to play smarter than this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Not when he goes off on her. Just gives her more ammo to use against him. He needs to play smarter than this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not a game Bandit. Letting out my inner anger is probably the most healthy for ME right now. It's about looking after ME right now.

I don't really give a sh*t how it makes her feel, or if it gives her ammo, or if it makes her feel bad. I simply don't care.

I see the hug as inconsequential. I made no difference to ME, and I couldn't give two sh*ts if it makes her feel more powerful or whatever.

You forget...... It's NOT about HER anymore.


----------



## bandit.45

Call it what you want. But at the end of the day it is a game. Because mark my words Poida, she's going to do everything she can to trash your reputation and make you out to be the villain. She's going to do everything to justify her actions to friends and family , and if that means throwing you under the bus, then she will do so with glee. 

Nothing wrong with being mad, just quit advertising it. She is a drama addict, and you stepped right into the center of her fantasy play and did your St Crispan's Day speech. She gets off in this sh!t She loves getting a rise out of you. Her buying you groceries was her way of reassuring herself that she is kinder and better than you. 

Being pitied by a woman who destroyed my world would stick in my craw to no end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Call it what you want. But at the end of the day it is a game. Because mark my words Poida, she's going to do everything she can to trash your reputation and make you out to be the villain. She's going to do everything to justify her actions to friends and family , and if that means throwing you under the bus, then she will do so with glee.
> 
> Nothing wrong with being mad, just quit advertising it. She is a drama addict, and you stepped right into the center of her fantasy play and did your St Crispan's Day speech. She gets off in this sh!t She loves getting a rise out of you. Her buying you groceries was her way of reassuring herself that she is kinder and better than you.
> 
> Being pitied by a woman who destroyed my world would stick in my craw to no end.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know what.........I still don't care.

What is more important to me is MY mental health.

Bottling things up is one of the things that got me to where I am and I refuse to bottle anything up for her.

She is going to say all that sh*t to people anyway.

I repeat. I don't care what she thinks, says or does and I don't care who she tells, lies to and manipulates. I'm never going to associate with those people again either.


----------



## jld

I think it is good you are expressing your anger. Telling her the truth about your feelings is probably very painful to her. And yet healing, too, for both of you.

Next relationship: Commit to transparency, from the beginning. Get to rejection quickly, if there is to be rejection.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> She is going to say all that sh*t to people anyway.


:iagree:

Without a doubt.


----------



## poida

jld said:


> I think it is good you are expressing your anger. Telling her the truth about your feelings is probably very painful to her. And yet healing, too, for both of you.
> 
> Next relationship: Commit to transparency, from the beginning. Get to rejection quickly, if there is to be rejection.


Agreed.

The most hurtful thing about this relationship was that I WAS transparent and SHE wasn't.

I now have the tools to recognise when someone doesn't want to or isn't able to be transparent.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> I think it is good you are expressing your anger. Telling her the truth about your feelings is probably very painful to her.


Wishful thinking. She doesn't feel a damn thing for him. Nor is she sorry. Just a good little actress.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

We don't know that, bandit. Truth penetrates the heart, even if the receiver is hesitant to admit it. 

And I think her actions _are_ admitting it.


----------



## bandit.45

Time will tell.


----------



## poida

jld said:


> We don't know that, bandit. Truth penetrates the heart, even if the receiver is hesitant to admit it.
> 
> And I think her actions _are_ admitting it.


I think she does feel guilty. She was crying to herself after I lost it. And I know she was crying when she left me after hugging me.
I think she genuinely feels inadequate and bad about not telling me how she felt in the marriage before she pulled away from me. For her, the affair was well after that decision. She is beginning to realise that her house of cards blaming me for the breakdown is all coming down. But she will stick to that fantasy because that is all she has.

Again... Not that it matters.


----------



## jack.c

poida said:


> I think she does feel guilty. She was crying to herself after I lost it. And I know she was crying when she left me after hugging me.
> I think she genuinely feels inadequate and bad about not telling me how she felt in the marriage before she pulled away from me. For her, the affair was well after that decision. She is beginning to realise that her house of cards blaming me for the breakdown is all coming down. But she will stick to that fantasy because that is all she has.
> 
> Again... Not that it matters.



I think you did great---- only thing i would've done was to push her off gently 1 second after her hug.


----------



## LongWalk

She felt good and bad. You shocked her and made her feel cheap. But she felt good that she could be nice to you, as if she could make it up to you with groceries and a hug.

She is a flawed human being. Her failure has a name: cheater.

After this emotional release, you can offer her an apology if you like: "Sorry I lost my temper the other day."

Avoid seeing her.


----------



## bandit.45

She knows having an affair was far worse than anything you ever did. That's why she has to blame the sorry state of the marriage all on you. Her nervous system would not be able to take bearing all the blame. She has to try to equalize it.


----------



## poida

LongWalk said:


> She felt good and bad. You shocked her and made her feel cheap. But she felt good that she could be nice to you, as if she could make it up to you with groceries and a hug.
> 
> She is a flawed human being. Her failure has a name: cheater.
> 
> After this emotional release, you can offer her an apology if you like: "Sorry I lost my temper the other day."
> 
> Avoid seeing her.


I did and I have been.....:smthumbup:


----------



## bandit.45

I think you're doing great Poida. Take my remarks at face value. I just want you to look at things from all directions.


----------



## poida

Last night was my second date with one of the nicest, kindest women I have ever met. We had our first kiss and it was damn good. I really like this girl. Told her I wanted to take it really slow and she's totally cool with that. But at the same time, I don't want to discourage her as I think she could be part of my long term future.

What I wanted to ask you all was, after infidelity, did you also find yourself questioning whether the attraction you had for someone was indeed the real thing and later find it was? Was there a period of your mind telling you "be careful, you could get hurt again!" and did this hinder you in your first new relationship? I'm feeling a little of that.

I know it's very soon after my separation, and technically I'm still married, but I'm feeling the right things. 

I will report that after blowing up at the WW, I am now quite comfortable living by myself, happy in my own company, and quite prepared to live by myself in the future. In that respect, I can't tell you how much telling her exactly what I think has done for my personal growth....it's awesome. 

Thoughts? I'm sure it varies enormously for everybody but how dangerous do we think this situation is for me emotionally?

I feel ready enough to begin something without hindering my personal progress...... in fact I think it will help me find additional motivation.


----------



## Decorum

poida said:


> I will report that after blowing up at the WW, I am now quite comfortable living by myself, happy in my own company, and quite prepared to live by myself in the future. In that respect, I can't tell you how much telling her exactly what I think has done for my personal growth....it's awesome.


People move on in steps (ok maybe fits and starts sometimes), just like mourning for a loved one, you released all that emotional energy 
and likely you "put the flame out under the still", so you have moved on emotionally, thats awesome. When your view of her is a settled issue you will be less troubled by her.

If it flames again ever it will be easier for you to quench it.

I am glad for you. The new girl sounds great.


----------



## happyman64

Take it real slow Poida. For yourself and thus new girl.

Your wounds have not stopped bleeding.

Otherwise we are going to make you go into the teepee for a sweat session with Bandit.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

poida said:


> Last night was my second date with one of the nicest, kindest women I have ever met. We had our first kiss and it was damn good. I really like this girl. Told her I wanted to take it really slow and she's totally cool with that. But at the same time, I don't want to discourage her as I think she could be part of my long term future.
> 
> What I wanted to ask you all was, after infidelity, did you also find yourself questioning whether the attraction you had for someone was indeed the real thing and later find it was? Was there a period of your mind telling you "be careful, you could get hurt again!" and did this hinder you in your first new relationship? I'm feeling a little of that.
> 
> I know it's very soon after my separation, and technically I'm still married, but I'm feeling the right things.
> 
> I will report that after blowing up at the WW, I am now quite comfortable living by myself, happy in my own company, and quite prepared to live by myself in the future. In that respect, I can't tell you how much telling her exactly what I think has done for my personal growth....it's awesome.
> 
> Thoughts? I'm sure it varies enormously for everybody but how dangerous do we think this situation is for me emotionally?
> 
> I feel ready enough to begin something without hindering my personal progress...... in fact I think it will help me find additional motivation.


The way you feel is normal. A once burnt, twice shy kind of thing.

You said that you were taking it slow. I think this is wise. How ever, there will come a time when things will start moving faster then you'll probably feel is safe for you to be doing.

Eventually you'll have to decide how to handle it. You can be safer and pull back against your desire to fall deeper in love, or you can take the risk and let the chips fall where they may.

Try not to let what your stbxw did to you dictate how you interact with other women. I know, it's a hard thing to do, but they(or you) shouldn't have to suffer for you stbxw's actions.

You been here long enough, you know the signs. When you get into a committed relationship again tell her what you expect right up front. What she should expect of you.

The one good thing about having sunk a boat on the rocks is when you start sailing again, you now look for the rocks.

Happy sailing.


----------



## poida

Yeah, it has been hard to insulate her from my past hurt. So far, I've been pretty good and just said I wanted to take things slow, but as a woman I can imagine she would be wondering exactly how messed up I am and as a 32 year old, wondering about whether I will ever commit to get her down the marriage and kids road.

I think I should probably just keep cool for a few more dates until I know how I feel about her and then perhaps drop a few hints about what I want from my future.

For me, that does include marriage and kids. I have no real issues with doing that relatively quickly (ie is a year or two) with the right person.

I feel like my WW wasted a perfectly good marriage and something in me wants to get back on track to where I thought I was (about ready to have kids).

Anyway.... slowly slowly. Thanks for the comments.


----------



## bandit.45

happyman64 said:


> Take it real slow Poida. For yourself and thus new girl.
> 
> Your wounds have not stopped bleeding.
> 
> Otherwise we are going to make you go into the teepee for a sweat session with Bandit.


Good idea. Afterwards I'll introduce him to a nice Navajo girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Good idea. Afterwards I'll introduce him to a nice Navajo girl.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ummm
peyote
Then I can talk to my ancestors right?
Just sayin.


----------



## bandit.45

tom67 said:


> ummm
> peyote
> Then I can talk to my ancestors right?
> Just sayin.


No. I'll just have you lick a Colorado River toad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

Monday update. What a weekend!!!!!!

Saturday I spend the day renovating with the WW helping. It all ended pretty quickly after I asked her what she planned to do regarding the sport club I participate in. She volunteers (since last year) and I've been a keen participant for more than a decade. I asked if she planned to go there this year. She said yes, and I said well I will have to find another club. She asked why and I said "because after this house is renovated, I never want to see you again."
She sat there shocked. She asked, "what about our dog, surely with want to see him?"
I said, "it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to move on with my life."
She said "so does 3 years in a relationship and 8 years of marriage mean nothing to you??"
I sat there calmly faced and said "the fact you have even suggested we would be friends after this just proves how little you have consider how I might feel after not telling me how you feel in the relationship, then cheating on me, then lieeing continuously, then dragging me through false R, then moving out for the second time, then getting back with the man you cheated on me with, all the while with him all the time I suspect."
She said "I thought we were going to be friends."
I said, "Again, you simply do not have the ability to consider how other people might feel. Why would I want to be involved with that? I am starting a new life and you wont be in it."
At first she was silent, then she got frustrated, then she got mad accused me of "saying horrible things to her" and being "hateful", then she packed her bag, stormed out the door and drove away.
I later got a call from her idiot, abusing brother and ignored it.
I'm left thinking...... WTF!!!!! How fricken deluded is this woman? What sort of f*cking fantasy world does she live in? 
All I can suggest is that she actually thought that after we both "play" around with some other people, we were miraculously going to get back together again..??? Who knows. What do you think??
To be honest, I find it all pretty funny and find myself chuckling about it as I write this.

In more positive news, I met a woman.
The most honest, genuine, caring, traditional woman I have ever met. And the sexual chemistry is off the charts. 
Puts the chemistry I had with the WW to shame. 
I'm keeping all your comments in mind, and my current state of emotional sensitivity in mind, but things really started to get out of hand Saturday night/Sunday. I have never felt so sure about really liking someone in all my life. No doubt. Little things about a new partner's body we might not find perfect were so completely irrelevant compared to the emotional completeness of being with this woman. 
Again, I am trying to take things slowly but it has been hard.

AND
Unfortunately, my sexual anxiety is back which is really stressing me out, literally until I'm physically sick. It's never really an issue after being with someone for a month or two, but it's simply not something I want in my life, and I think it really spoils what could be the most amazing part of the start of a relationship. I think it also puts quite a lot of stress onto the other person. The only positive I can draw from it right now is that it has slowed us down (effectively stops me) from jumping into a full blown sexual relationship (although in other ways it practically already is).
So, I have bitten the bullet and have booked a hypnotherapy session to learn to overcome these issues. It's something I would like to overcome more in my life than anything and I feel like is my last big step in becoming the man I want to be. 
Has anyone had any experience with hypnotherapy to resolve sexual anxiety and was it successful?


----------



## GusPolinski

Dude, good for you. As for not seeing your STBXW after your divorce, why wait until then? Just tell her that you don't need her help w/ any of the remaining renovations and be done w/ her. The sooner she's out of your life (for good!), the sooner you'll be able to move on, and the sooner all the rest of it (sexual issues, etc) will start to shift back into phase.


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> Dude, good for you. As for not seeing your STBXW after your divorce, why wait until then? Just tell her that you don't need her help w/ any of the remaining renovations and be done w/ her. The sooner she's out of your life (for good!), the sooner you'll be able to move on, and the sooner all the rest of it (sexual issues, etc) will start to shift back into phase.


Yeah, she text me saying we shouldn't see each other right now and will do her part of the renos in 2 weeks when she is on holidays. 

I think I will just finish the house off myself before then and put the house on the market.

Thanks for the support. I really wasn't looking for a serious relationship, but at the moment I'm just going with the flow.:smthumbup:


----------



## GusPolinski

Yeah man, just text her back and tell her that you don't need a damn thing from her -- you'll finish up yourself and the house will be on the market soon. Maybe something like...

"Apparently I wasn't clear enough... whether we 'should' or 'shouldn't' see each other now or ever again doesn't even factor in here, as I don't want to see you -- at all -- ever again. I'll finish up the house myself and will have it on the market soon. I'll let you know once it has sold. Keep the dog. He can be your 'friend'."

Once your house sells, bring her a check for her portion of the equity, and go dark on her for anything not directly related to the divorce. In fact, take it a few steps further... Block her phone number(s) and tell her to communicate any comments, concerns, or questions to you via e-mail. Don't respond to anything not pertaining to the divorce. Drop and block her on all social media accounts as well.

This is sort of like a post-marital 180 and, as with the 180's usual implementation, the point is to help you to fully detach and move on.


----------



## jld

poida said:


> .
> The most honest, genuine, caring, traditional woman I have ever met.


:smthumbup:

Your ex is immature and clueless, poida. So glad this new woman is in your life.

Please share your heart with her. Openness and honesty. Build a solid emotional relationship. You will both feel safer that way.

And congratulations!


----------



## bandit.45

Your ex is immature, clueless, amoral and narcissistic. Basically she was an affair waiting to happen. She will never have any meaningful long lasting relationships, and that is sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Turin74

[QUOTEcit Hey put=poida;9299186]

All I can suggest is that she actually thought that after we both "play" around with some other people, we were miraculously going to get back together again..???
[/QUOTE]

Not at all. Sure she is not planning to get back together (at least now). The logic is that - for the outside world and for her deluded mind - remaining friends gives the whole ordeal the facade of integrity. 'You know, we grew apart but handled this like adults, we still friends, I'm so glad Poida is happy with his new girl'. 

If you cut her out, burn all the bridges and cross the street when you see her - this paints the different, grim and real picture of who she is - the cheating wh..ife. If it is like that she also envisages you not trying to protect her image from now on. '-- Hey mate, why are you leaving the club? -- Cos I don't want to be anywhere near my cheating x. -- Wtf? '


Also the way I read your story everything was under her control until now. Now it is going away. She just realized that instead of cosy and friendly transition to a new relationship, it ends here and now. Literally the guy she used to see and chat daily for the last 8 years is gone in 2 weeks forever. This is scary.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## bandit.45

She doesn't like being dumped. Her ego cannot handle it. This wasn't in her script. Poida is not following the plan she laid out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Your ex is immature, clueless, amoral and narcissistic. Basically she was an affair waiting to happen. *She will never have any meaningful long lasting relationships, and that is sad.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, now she might. Poida gave her a gift: Someone said No to her. She has to hear it. He means it.

He probably gave her the best gift anyone could. And by cheating on him, she actually gave him a gift: his freedom. 

He is now with a woman who is better in every way than his ex. How would he have found her otherwise?

So, unintentionally, they each gave the other something quite valuable.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Your ex is immature, clueless, amoral and narcissistic. Basically she was an affair waiting to happen. She will never have any meaningful long lasting relationships, and that is sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I remember telling her that right at the start of this whole process. That I actually felt sorry for her (at the time) that she would never have a lasting relationship.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> She said "so does 3 years in a relationship and 8 years of marriage mean nothing to you??"


:wtf:

Yes, they didn't mean anything to her when she cheated.


----------



## Ripper

It sucks man. You obviously had strong feelings for this woman. Cutting the strings will be tough, but its the right thing to do.

There's plenty of problems that you *have* to deal with in this world. A cheating wh*re isn't one of them.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Your ex is immature, clueless, amoral and narcissistic. Basically she was an affair waiting to happen. She will never have any meaningful long lasting relationships, and that is sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ha ha.. I was just reading my whole thread right from the start and Bandit was right on from his first post.

You da man Bandit!!!!


----------



## poida

lordmayhem said:


> :wtf:
> 
> Yes, they didn't mean anything to her when she cheated.


Yes, I nearly fell off my chair when she said that.

I could do was shake my head, smile and chuckle at her. 

That really pissed her off!! he he.


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> Yes, I nearly fell off my chair when she said that.
> 
> I could do was shake my head, smile and chuckle at her.
> 
> That really pissed her off!! he he.


It is just a vivid display of how waywards, narcissistic unrepentant waywards, see absolutely no wrong in what they have done or are doing. Poida your WW actually does feel she has done no wrong. Because the affair made her happy, it had to be right. Wayward measure everything from the baseline of their own immediate needs and gratification.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

poida said:


> Yes, I nearly fell off my chair when she said that.
> 
> I could do was shake my head, smile and chuckle at her.
> 
> That really pissed her off!! he he.


One of the great ironies here.

I should fully expect these bizarre thought processes from these cheaters, yet am surprised when I read them.


----------



## tom67

weightlifter said:


> One of the great ironies here.
> 
> I should fully expect these bizarre thought processes from these cheaters, yet am surprised when I read them.


I know it still is bizarre because they are wired so differently.


----------



## Dyokemm

"She asked why and I said "because after this house is renovated, I never want to see you again."
She sat there shocked. She asked, "what about our dog, surely with want to see him?"
I said, "it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to move on with my life."
She said "so does 3 years in a relationship and 8 years of marriage mean nothing to you??"

I think utter disdain and complete rejection are the best path for a BS post D-Day, even if they are open to or want R. 

True rejection hurts...something the BS knows intensely and immediately due to the betrayal, but the WS never expects to have to face.

They either expect begging and being chased by the BS, or they live with some stupid fantasy like poida's WW that they will remain friends with their BS....some of them even seem to think that the BS will remain as a Plan B in the future after they have had their fun and tested the single lifestyle.

When a BS immediately files for D and shows nothing but contempt and rejection for the WS, it shatters this fantasy forever.

At that point, a WS might finally wake up to the fact that they had better start doing the chasing and heavy lifting if they want any chance of saving the M.

And if the BS truly is done and just wants to D and get the worthless cheater out of their life ASAP, it helps to restore some self-respect and dignity....and since being rejected sucks, it lets the BS give the WS just a small sliver of the pain that has been inflicted on them.

A WS may never openly admit it, but I would bet that most of them are hurt (as poida's WW obviously was) by the absolute rejection of their former partners.


----------



## poida

Dyokemm said:


> "She asked why and I said "because after this house is renovated, I never want to see you again."
> She sat there shocked. She asked, "what about our dog, surely with want to see him?"
> I said, "it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to move on with my life."
> She said "so does 3 years in a relationship and 8 years of marriage mean nothing to you??"
> 
> I think utter disdain and complete rejection are the best path for a BS post D-Day, even if they are open to or want R.
> 
> True rejection hurts...something the BS knows intensely and immediately due to the betrayal, but the WS never expects to have to face.
> 
> They either expect begging and being chased by the BS, or they live with some stupid fantasy like poida's WW that they will remain friends with their BS....some of them even seem to think that the BS will remain as a Plan B in the future after they have had their fun and tested the single lifestyle.
> 
> When a BS immediately files for D and shows nothing but contempt and rejection for the WS, it shatters this fantasy forever.
> 
> At that point, a WS might finally wake up to the fact that they had better start doing the chasing and heavy lifting if they want any chance of saving the M.
> 
> And if the BS truly is done and just wants to D and get the worthless cheater out of their life ASAP, it helps to restore some self-respect and dignity....and since being rejected sucks, it lets the BS give the WS just a small sliver of the pain that has been inflicted on them.
> 
> A WS may never openly admit it, but I would bet that most of them are hurt (as poida's WW obviously was) by the absolute rejection of their former partners.


Yes, with the benefit of hindsight, IMMEDIATE intention of divorce and kicking out of house and all belongings on front lawn is what I should have done. 
I was lost in my own fantasy of her, and depressed, and totally reliant on her emotionally for approval that I couldn't see the light.

I feel so amazingly in control of my life now. That happiest I have ever been. And it's so nice to have such a wonderful new woman in my life. I feel so amazingly driven to start a family be a good provider now. I guess I always had this as my plan, but the motivation to BE A MAN now is something I am relishing. I finally get it!!! 

I would agree that the WW is hurt (and no, won't ever admit it). You know what, she is already texting me "nice" messages. It's all starting to sink in.........

I got to send a really funny message today too. She said, "I'm dropping the dog over tonight. "I said, "keep him tonight too." She said "Will you not be staying at home tonight?" I said "No."
Meanwhile, that d*ck of a guy she cheated on me with works offshore for 3 out of 4 weeks. And apparently spends most of his time with his mates when he is home...
Waaaahaaahaaahaaa!!!!:lol:


----------



## GusPolinski

poida said:


> Yes, with the benefit of hindsight, IMMEDIATE intention of divorce and kicking out of house and all belongings on front lawn is what I should have done.
> I was lost in my own fantasy of her, and depressed, and totally reliant on her emotionally for approval that I couldn't see the light.
> 
> I feel so amazingly in control of my life now. That happiest I have ever been. And it's so nice to have such a wonderful new woman in my life. I feel so amazingly driven to start a family be a good provider now. I guess I always had this as my plan, but the motivation to BE A MAN now is something I am relishing. I finally get it!!!
> 
> I would agree that the WW is hurt (and no, won't ever admit it). You know what, she is already texting me "nice" messages. It's all starting to sink in.........
> 
> I got to send a really funny message today too. She said, "I'm dropping the dog over tonight. "I said, "keep him tonight too." She said "Will you not be staying at home tonight?" I said "No."
> Meanwhile, that d*ck of a guy she cheated on me with works offshore for 3 out of 4 weeks. And apparently spends most of his time with his mates when he is home...
> Waaaahaaahaaahaaa!!!!:lol:


Whether it's w/ you or w/ her, the dog needs to get someplace and stay there permanently.

You said a while back that she's sort of cold, distant, and unemotional. That may very well be true (and you'd know, right?), but it's clear that you've been meeting her emotional needs -- even when not attempting to do so -- for some time. The "nice" texts, texts about the dog, swapping the dog (really?!?), etc, are all her way of continually engaging you in order to get her ego kibble.

So, just wondering... would you say that she tries to engage you via text (or whatever means, really) more or less often during the one week out of four when OM is home?


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> Whether it's w/ you or w/ her, the dog needs to get someplace and stay there permanently.
> 
> You said a while back that she's sort of cold, distant, and unemotional. That may very well be true (and you'd know, right?), but it's clear that you've been meeting her emotional needs -- even when not attempting to do so -- for some time. The "nice" texts, texts about the dog, swapping the dog (really?!?), etc, are all her way of continually engaging you in order to get her ego kibble.
> 
> So, just wondering... would you say that she tries to engage you via text (or whatever means, really) more or less often during the one week out of four when OM is home?


Yes, I think you are onto something there. I think she does get ego support from me and is struggling without it.
That mechanism really makes sense in our relationship. It was a one way relationship, and I'm recognising that now after being with someone new.


----------



## GusPolinski

Also, remember to take things *slowly* w/ this new gal. I'm sure that she's great and all, but it's probably not a good idea for you to get too heavily invested in a new relationship at this time.

New love is great and all, but _take it slowly and be careful_. Let things develop naturally -- don't rush anything. After all, if we're speaking strictly in terms of statistics, you're probably at least 3 or 4 gals away from the next Mrs. Poida.


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> Also, remember to take things *slowly* w/ this new gal. I'm sure that she's great and all, but it's probably not a good idea for you to get too heavily invested in a new relationship at this time.
> 
> New love is great and all, but _take it slowly and be careful_. Let things develop naturally -- don't rush anything. After all, if we're speaking strictly in terms of statistics, you're probably at least 3 or 4 gals away from the next Mrs. Poida.


Statistically, I would agree. And it should take quite a while. 

I have dated 6 girls so far and had some fun.

This girl is something else though. Never in my life have I ever been so sure about something after meeting someone. And I certainly didn't expect to meet someone I really really clicked with so quickly. It really puts the sexual attraction I had with my wife to shame (even at the start).

But yes, I am trying to take it slow and she is too. SI think we both see potential and know that taking it slow will benefit us if there is a long term relationship. But sometimes the chemistry takes over and it all that theory and caution goes right out the window....

I think the return of my sexual anxiety could be a blessing in disguise (although no doubt confusing and stressful for both of us).

I'm interested what comes of this hypnotherapy on Thursday. Could be another amazing turn in my life.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Poida is a good guy and I wish him the best with his new woman; he certainly deserves to have a good relationship.

I am going to however dissent a bit with others in this thread. My dissent is that the issues in this relationship do not stem entirely because of who she is. In life, with the exception of sociopaths (which she borders closely on for sure), it is not as simple as "good" and "bad". People have varying complexities that condemn simple labels to failure.

While I can agree his ex is a real piece of work, Poida is the type of guy who is at risk of other women cheating on him in the future. It is not because he is in someway less valuable than other men (on the contrary in my opinion), but instead that his actions give the false indicators that lead women to stray. This is being demonstrated now- he finally said "Im done being the doormat", and she responded by "feeling" the desire to have him back.

A woman is attracted to a man's mastery of his environment (physically and emotionally). One way a woman tests a man's "rank" in his environment is through statements designed to usurp his power; if he handles such tests with class and firm affirmations of his capacity (indirectly), he is rewarded with affection and her desire. If he does not, it "lowers" his rank in her eyes.

This is not realized by the woman in the realm of logical consideration- it is realized through feeling. Every man will fail and every man will struggle, but so long as the mean sum of a man's response to his environment is positive, she will continue to "love" (read: her brain will continue to secrete the neurochemicals dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, etc) him. 

Poida, there is no doubt she was the one totally screwed up here. She cheated, you didnt. You tried to make it work while she spat in your face. All I ask you to do for your benefit is to remember that you must very clearly draw boundaries, and you must very clearly demonstrate that you are proud and capable. A man's (reasonable) bravado is intoxicating to a woman, and it is the basis for relationships that last.

In this approach, it is my hope that you will find a love that stands the test of time. If you allow yourself to be emasculated, the next woman might end up feeling less; while she might have the decency to not cheat, the decency to break up with you respectfully, and the decency to be considerate of how you feel, she may not. 

I dont say this to insult you or to suggest this situation was your fault. While she totally demonstrated her failures as a human being, keep in mind no woman who feels for her man does what she did to you. Good luck man...


----------



## GusPolinski

:iagree:

OptimisticPessimist, you've basically just provided a summary of my next six posts. Bravo.


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Poida is a good guy and I wish him the best with his new woman; he certainly deserves to have a good relationship.
> 
> I am going to however dissent a bit with others in this thread. My dissent is that the issues in this relationship do not stem entirely because of who she is. In life, with the exception of sociopaths (which she borders closely on for sure), it is not as simple as "good" and "bad". People have varying complexities that condemn simple labels to failure.
> 
> While I can agree his ex is a real piece of work, Poida is the type of guy who is at risk of other women cheating on him in the future. It is not because he is in someway less valuable than other men (on the contrary in my opinion), but instead that his actions give the false indicators that lead women to stray. This is being demonstrated now- he finally said "Im done being the doormat", and she responded by "feeling" the desire to have him back.
> 
> A woman is attracted to a man's mastery of his environment (physically and emotionally). One way a woman tests a man's "rank" in his environment is through statements designed to usurp his power; if he handles such tests with class and firm affirmations of his capacity (indirectly), he is rewarded with affection and her desire. If he does not, it "lowers" his rank in her eyes.
> 
> This is not realized by the woman in the realm of logical consideration- it is realized through feeling. Every man will fail and every man will struggle, but so long as the mean sum of a man's response to his environment is positive, she will continue to "love" (read: her brain will continue to secrete the neurochemicals dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, etc) him.
> 
> Poida, there is no doubt she was the one totally screwed up here. She cheated, you didnt. You tried to make it work while she spat in your face. All I ask you to do for your benefit is to remember that you must very clearly draw boundaries, and you must very clearly demonstrate that you are proud and capable. A man's (reasonable) bravado is intoxicating to a woman, and it is the basis for relationships that last.
> 
> In this approach, it is my hope that you will find a love that stands the test of time. If you allow yourself to be emasculated, the next woman might end up feeling less; while she might have the decency to not cheat, the decency to break up with you respectfully, and the decency to be considerate of how you feel, she may not.
> 
> I dont say this to insult you or to suggest this situation was your fault. While she totally demonstrated her failures as a human being, keep in mind no woman who feels for her man does what she did to you. Good luck man...


OP, I totally and absolutely agree. And this understanding has triggered some sort of primal response to be a strong leader and provider that I am relishing. I see great things in my future now and I'm event thinking about starting a business of my own.

Had I read this a year ago I would be scratching my head.


----------



## poida

I can't believe I even had the nerve to tell OP he was being "harsh".... oh how clueless I was...


----------



## poida

Ha! Hypnotherapist got me to do a PT. Fascinating and so true!!!
https://www.personalitypage.com/ENFP.html
Actually explains a lot. No wonder I feel free now that I have grown and broken my reliance on approval from the WW.


----------



## treyvion

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Poida is a good guy and I wish him the best with his new woman; he certainly deserves to have a good relationship.
> 
> I am going to however dissent a bit with others in this thread. My dissent is that the issues in this relationship do not stem entirely because of who she is. In life, with the exception of sociopaths (which she borders closely on for sure), it is not as simple as "good" and "bad". People have varying complexities that condemn simple labels to failure.


And it's not steady state. On some days a dominant or selfish side may be predominant while others they are fine.



OptimisticPessimist said:


> While I can agree his ex is a real piece of work, Poida is the type of guy who is at risk of other women cheating on him in the future. It is not because he is in someway less valuable than other men (on the contrary in my opinion), but instead that his actions give the false indicators that lead women to stray. This is being demonstrated now- he finally said "Im done being the doormat", and she responded by "feeling" the desire to have him back.


Agree. The last one molded him into this doormat, he has to undo it. That's why I said it's GOOD for a man to go have intimate relations with others after a bad breakup, because it reminds him who he is.



OptimisticPessimist said:


> A woman is attracted to a man's mastery of his environment (physically and emotionally). One way a woman tests a man's "rank" in his environment is through statements designed to usurp his power; if he handles such tests with class and firm affirmations of his capacity (indirectly), he is rewarded with affection and her desire. If he does not, it "lowers" his rank in her eyes.


Agree.



OptimisticPessimist said:


> This is not realized by the woman in the realm of logical consideration- it is realized through feeling. Every man will fail and every man will struggle, but so long as the mean sum of a man's response to his environment is positive, she will continue to "love" (read: her brain will continue to secrete the neurochemicals dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, etc) him.


Agree



OptimisticPessimist said:


> Poida, there is no doubt she was the one totally screwed up here. She cheated, you didnt. You tried to make it work while she spat in your face. All I ask you to do for your benefit is to remember that you must very clearly draw boundaries, and you must very clearly demonstrate that you are proud and capable. A man's (reasonable) bravado is intoxicating to a woman, and it is the basis for relationships that last.


If the previous woman has unsurped your power it's up to you to restore it afterwards and managing yourself so that it does not happen again.



OptimisticPessimist said:


> In this approach, it is my hope that you will find a love that stands the test of time. If you allow yourself to be emasculated, the next woman might end up feeling less; while she might have the decency to not cheat, the decency to break up with you respectfully, and the decency to be considerate of how you feel, she may not.


Well hopefully the next woman won't try to emasculate him, and appreciate him for what he is.



OptimisticPessimist said:


> I dont say this to insult you or to suggest this situation was your fault. While she totally demonstrated her failures as a human being, keep in mind no woman who feels for her man does what she did to you. Good luck man...


Agree. There is so much better.


----------



## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> Also, remember to take things *slowly* w/ this new gal. I'm sure that she's great and all, but it's probably not a good idea for you to get too heavily invested in a new relationship at this time.
> 
> New love is great and all, but _take it slowly and be careful_. Let things develop naturally -- don't rush anything. After all, if we're speaking strictly in terms of statistics, you're probably at least 3 or 4 gals away from the next Mrs. Poida.


Yes. Three or four gals....and just think of all the perverted, amoral things he gets to do with them..


----------



## GusPolinski

LOL. To be clear, I meant 3 or 4 relationships... not 3 or 4 different dates (or date "clusters") w/ different women.


----------



## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> LOL. To be clear, I meant 3 or 4 relationships... not 3 or 4 different dates (or date "clusters") w/ different women.


That's what I meant too. He should have three or four at a time.


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> LOL. To be clear, I meant 3 or 4 relationships... not 3 or 4 different dates (or date "clusters") w/ different women.


I wouldn't have a problem with that.

Only problem is, the current woman I am with is amazing and I can easily see it being a very successful long term relationship. We are both falling completely for each other. Chemistry is off the charts and we suit each other perfectly. We have the same set of values, perfectly suited personalities, the same life objectives and the same idea about what a relationship should be. I feel like she has my back and always will.

If I had any choice in the matter I wouldn't have chosen to meet this person so soon, but at the same time, it's been so amazing.

You will all warn me I'm sure and we are already taking it as slow as possible knowing the above.


----------



## WyshIknew

poida said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with that.
> 
> Only problem is, the current woman I am with is amazing and I can easily see it being a very successful long term relationship. We are both falling completely for each other. Chemistry is off the charts and we suit each other perfectly. We have the same set of values, perfectly suited personalities, the same life objectives and the same idea about what a relationship should be. I feel like she has my back and always will.
> 
> If I had any choice in the matter I wouldn't have chosen to meet this person so soon, but at the same time, it's been so amazing.
> 
> You will all warn me I'm sure and we are already taking it as slow as possible knowing the above.


Nope no warnings for you from me. Do what you need to do to recover without harming others.

You mention meeting this new lady too soon.

Does it really matter when you meet the right one?


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> You will all warn me I'm sure and we are already taking it as slow as possible knowing the above.


Bull.



You're banging her senseless aren't you?


----------



## poida

WyshIknew said:


> Nope no warnings for you from me. Do what you need to do to recover without harming others.
> 
> You mention meeting this new lady too soon.
> 
> Does it really matter when you meet the right one?


It feels that way..... and I've always thought so.


----------



## Turin74

Probably swimming upstream here but. .. Go for it. Better to take the risk than to face a long regret over the missed opportunity. Just make it a calculated risk. Your are now forewarned hence forearmed.




poida said:


> GusPolinski said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. To be clear, I meant 3 or 4 relationships... not 3 or 4 different dates (or date "clusters") w/ different women.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't have a problem with that.
> 
> Only problem is, the current woman I am with is amazing and I can easily see it being a very successful long term relationship. We are both falling completely for each other. Chemistry is off the charts and we suit each other perfectly. We have the same set of values, perfectly suited personalities, the same life objectives and the same idea about what a relationship should be. I feel like she has my back and always will.
> 
> If I had any choice in the matter I wouldn't have chosen to meet this person so soon, but at the same time, it's been so amazing.
> 
> You will all warn me I'm sure and we are already taking it as slow as possible knowing the above.
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Bull.
> 
> 
> 
> You're banging her senseless aren't you?


No actually. As I said, I've had sexual anxiety issues crop up again. Something I've always had and generally lasts a week or so when I first meet someone.

As of this morning, that anxiety pretty much already gone.

Even so, getting over these issues once and for all is something I want to so for myself. I have a long hypnotherapy session on Thurs and we have agreed to withhold sex until I have achieved my goals.

It has been very hard for both of us to abstain as it has been hot hot hot.!!!:FIREdevil:


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> I can't believe I even had the nerve to tell OP he was being "harsh".... oh how clueless I was...


If you allow your beliefs to be changed by any person that has an opinion, your opinions wont mean much. You must run what a person says through filters of logic based on experience and based on existing tools you have that aid you in discerning truth.

Dont even worry about calling what I said "harsh"... you needed to come to an understanding through your own experience. No hard feelings at all 



poida said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with that.
> 
> Only problem is, the current woman I am with is amazing and I can easily see it being a very successful long term relationship. We are both falling completely for each other. Chemistry is off the charts and we suit each other perfectly. We have the same set of values, perfectly suited personalities, the same life objectives and the same idea about what a relationship should be. I feel like she has my back and always will.
> 
> If I had any choice in the matter I wouldn't have chosen to meet this person so soon, but at the same time, it's been so amazing.
> 
> You will all warn me I'm sure and we are already taking it as slow as possible knowing the above.


If you look at other threads, you will hear of a trend called "hysterical bonding". This trend is born from 2 things: 1) the desire to re-establish ownership over one another, and 2) the desire to re-establish your value after having been cheated on. 

"Rebound" relationships are born in a similar fashion, especially considering the manner in which your last relationship failed. Your mind responds to a new woman's affections more dramatically than usual; this dramatic response is due (in part) to your desire to be validated sexually and socially. Of course, all romantic man/woman relationships contain such validation, but it could be said that you are more "desperate" for it.

This is precisely why all of us are warning you to take it slow. Your mind is still trying to place itself within the social ranks of society, and it will gloss over a great many sins of your partner to do so. It takes time for the biological insanity of a recovering mind to find its equilibrium.

While Im sure the woman is better than your ex-wife, be advised that what you feel for this woman is NOT just what she inspires you to feel; allow me to use a math metaphor: (perceived value of woman) + (need for self to be validated after traumatic romantic experience) + (usual neurochemical ****tail creating the lustful insanity accompanying all new romantic involvements) = (what poida currently feels). Only time can cancel out the latter two factors, and thus it is necessary you take it slow. Do not allow yourself to falsely believe this "is different"- humans have been going through this sort of thing for thousands of years, and patterns have emerged- patterns we as a community are warning you about. 



poida said:


> No actually. As I said, I've had sexual anxiety issues crop up again. Something I've always had and generally lasts a week or so when I first meet someone.
> 
> As of this morning, that anxiety pretty much already gone.
> 
> Even so, getting over these issues once and for all is something I want to so for myself. I have a long hypnotherapy session on Thurs and we have agreed to withhold sex until I have achieved my goals.
> 
> It has been very hard for both of us to abstain as it has been hot hot hot.!!!:FIREdevil:


I would be very careful in sharing this with anyone, especially the girl you are seeing. Sexual "anxiety" indicates lack of sexual confidence and that is POISON to a new relationship (or even a long standing one for that matter); even if lack of sexual confidence is not at the root of your anxiety, you must understand that your woman will not likely understand the subtle nuances- she will only understand that "sexual" and "anxiety" is in the same sentence. I suggest that you torture her sexually (in a good way) and let bravado ooze from your skin when it comes time. You call the shots (though you entertain requests) and you make her FEEL desire for you to go further and farther.


----------



## poida

After my first failed night of attempts (after date 4), it was kind of obvious I was having issues. So, I felt better to be honest about how I was feeling. I understand the ramification and risks of doing so, and if it doesn't work out as a result, then so be it. For me, part of the process of reducing the anxiety is to talk it out. This hasn't affected my relationships in the past and I felt most appropriate in this situation. The fact the issue is normally very temporary (like a week or two) helps. In fact, my current WW still says that our sex was always fantastic, great right to the end and nothing to do with why she left me. I guess she wouldn't have thrown me a few freebies at the end there if it wasn't (although I can't believe I jumped at the opportunity now).

This time, I have definitely been the leader in the bedroom in all other ways. I am just taking my time to work through this thing for myself. When I am ready, she is going to go places and feel things she has never felt before. I'm sure of that.

I hear you about the attraction formula and I totally agree. It's something I have always been acutely aware of in my life, and if anything actually I tend to over-analyse the beginnings of new relationships. I would suggest this is why I have never slept with most women I have been with more than once. For me, it has always been a search for a long term relationship there rather than a one night conquest. Not sure why but I really just don't find the hunt and conquer rewarding at all. I wouldn't call it Beta.... h*ll I don't know what you would call it.

I have thought about this long and hard, and from a practical point of view, and also in relation to my previous women and relationships. I have a very good memory and I think back to the beginning of the relationship with the WW that I thought was the pinnacle of attraction and compatibility. Our friends always use to comment that we were "too into each other, too intertwined".
I remember all the details, how I felt when we kissed, how I felt at the time, how I rated her in bed, kissing, as a person, her body etc. 
I am convinced what I am now experiencing now is something quite different. Very much the type of girl I would consider "marriage material".

BUT, I have your same concerns and I heed your advise and will proceed with caution and a balanced view.


----------



## m0nk

poida said:


> Ha! Hypnotherapist got me to do a PT. Fascinating and so true!!!
> https://www.personalitypage.com/ENFP.html
> Actually explains a lot. No wonder I feel free now that I have grown and broken my reliance on approval from the WW.


I LOVE Meyers-Briggs personality tests. While some balk at the idea of their persona being reduced to so many letters, it's yet another perspective from which we can be critical of ourselves and continue to grow. It's not the be-all end-all; it's a lens. Sorry for barging in--long time observer in the shadows. 

I'm an INFJ


----------



## poida

Well, I continue to experience anxiety issues when it comes to the act of sex and it is frustrating the sh*t out of me.
The hypnotherapy did help to relax me a bit but this problem is now so deeply wired in my brain it's really affecting me.
I am getting closer to getting over it with this gal, but it's the most frustrating thing in my life right now (and that's saying something with what I am going through!).
I think I'm just going to have to continue with self hypnotherapy with the supplied DVD's and focus on letting this issue go subconsciously.


----------



## GusPolinski

poida said:


> Well, I continue to experience anxiety issues when it comes to the act of sex and it is frustrating the sh*t out of me.
> The hypnotherapy did help to relax me a bit but this problem is now so deeply wired in my brain it's really affecting me.
> I am getting closer to getting over it with this gal, but it's the most frustrating thing in my life right now (and that's saying something with what I am going through!).
> I think I'm just going to have to continue with self hypnotherapy with the supplied DVD's and focus on letting this issue go subconsciously.


Have you tried easing into things w/ some mutual oral foreplay?


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> No actually. As I said, I've had sexual anxiety issues crop up again. Something I've always had and generally lasts a week or so when I first meet someone.
> 
> As of this morning, that anxiety pretty much already gone.
> :



Um Poida.....there are other equally fun ways of getting your woman off than just using your Johnson. 

Damn man do I have to hold your hand?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> Have you tried easing into things w/ some mutual oral foreplay?


Sure, and that is helping but I have deeply engrained pathways on my brain which tell me I won't succeed. Every time I start down the path of thinking about sex, I go down the same path.

I just spoke with my hypnotherapist and I am going to continue self therapy (via suggestive audio) to open up new pathways in my brain and all me to deviate from my normal course.

Like a phobia, I also need to accept the problem for what it is and simply get the confidence to do exactly what makes me scared. In fact I'm thinking that I could even let myself get to that point (knowing how it will end), and then build a new neuron path onto the end of my current path that ends in success. 

It has been a lifelong issue and will take some effort.


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> Sure, and that is helping but I have deeply engrained pathways on my brain which tell me I won't succeed. Every time I start down the path of thinking about sex, I go down the same path.
> 
> I just spoke with my hypnotherapist and I am going to continue self therapy (via suggestive audio) to open up new pathways in my brain and all me to deviate from my normal course.
> 
> Like a phobia, I also need to accept the problem for what it is and simply get the confidence to do exactly what makes me scared. In fact I'm thinking that I could even let myself get to that point (knowing how it will end), and then build a new neuron path onto the end of my current path that ends in success.
> 
> It has been a lifelong issue and will take some effort.


Ask her to undress slowly in front of you. Those pathways will reconnect pronto.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Um Poida.....there are other equally fun ways of getting your woman off than just using your Johnson.
> 
> Damn man do I have to hold your hand?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Ask her to undress slowly in front of you. Those pathways will reconnect pronto.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And see what pops up after that.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Um Poida.....there are other equally fun ways of getting your woman off than just using your Johnson.
> 
> Damn man do I have to hold your hand?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One step ahead of you man.....

At least SHE went to sleep satisfied.....


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Ask her to undress slowly in front of you. Those pathways will reconnect pronto.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Will try that.....


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> One step ahead of you man.....
> 
> At least SHE went to sleep satisfied.....


My boy...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> My boy...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup:


----------



## poida

Monday update;
Mission control.... we have lift-off.
I had quite an amazing self hypnosis on Saturday (turning negative into positive session) and it really helped. The relief of stress was so much that I found myself crying like a little girl. Boy oh boy I must have been putting ****e load of pressure on myself.

Anyway, now that I have conquered, I find myself observing an almost immediate switch in my mindset. Almost a caveman reaction, to go find and impregnate other cavewomen....

And if I'm honest, I find myself doubting just how attracted I am to this woman....

I tried to think back to how I felt about my wife when I first met her. In many ways, it was the same, and then as we grew together I fell in love with her body just as it was. I remember asking myself "could I marry a girl with tiny breasts???" He he he.. Funny sh*t.

So, can anyone recognise these thoughts and did they marry a women they loved every aspect of, but knowing that perhaps their body wasn't perfect to them in every way.

This girl is larger than I'm used to (honestly she is very normal sized, size 10, C cups, big-ish butt), but boy does she know how to use it.

I would love to talk through this because the reality is that I'm 35, balding, low fertility and completely sick of beautiful women who think their sh*t doesn stink. And I just lover everything else about her.

Gut feel is that I will learn to love her for who she is. Thoughts?


----------



## How am I Going to Surviv

Thoughts? How about this for a thought?: 

Keep working on yourself. Figure out where you want to go, with or without a woman, then start going there; confidently going there. Clear direction and confidence are key.

Everything else will fall into place. If someone decides they want to join you in your quest, fine. You decide if they can and for how long. If not, fine. you're going where you need to go - for you. If you know who you are, all the other decisions will be easy, almost automatic.


----------



## poida

How am I Going to Surviv said:


> Thoughts? How about this for a thought?:
> 
> Keep working on yourself. Figure out where you want to go, with or without a woman, then start going there; confidently going there. Clear direction and confidence are key.
> 
> Everything else will fall into place. If someone decides they want to join you in your quest, fine. You decide if they can and for how long. If not, fine. you're going where you need to go - for you. If you know who you are, all the other decisions will be easy, almost automatic.


Thanks. Nice change in thinking. I am sitting here wide awake at 2 in the morning really fretting about everything.
I really hate being someone with issues to deal with now and it is wearing me down.
I what worries me is that I know what I want. I want something simple. Love, a relationship, kids, a family etc. I guess that is a lot to want all at once. Perhaps I feel like after my divorce it will get my life back on track. I don't know.
It's all a bit much and I just want to run and hide from my whole life all of a sudden.
I just really don't want to hurt this girl. She has said she is scared of that, her friends have warned her about dating me and I'm worried I am simply turning it into a self for filling prophecy.
Aghhhh!!!!:scratchhead:


----------



## lostmyreligion

You fall in lust with the packaging but you fall in _love_ with the contents.


----------



## poida

How am I Going to Surviv said:


> Thoughts? How about this for a thought?:
> 
> Keep working on yourself. Figure out where you want to go, with or without a woman, then start going there; confidently going there. Clear direction and confidence are key.
> 
> Everything else will fall into place. If someone decides they want to join you in your quest, fine. You decide if they can and for how long. If not, fine. you're going where you need to go - for you. If you know who you are, all the other decisions will be easy, almost automatic.


You know what.. I read this again and realised I missed your point completely. One of my biggest issues is that my identity is so defined by what women think of me that I have become hyper sensitive about whether someone is "perfect" for me. That is, if she isn't PERFECT, then my attraction to her might not be total, meaning that the bond I have won't be perfect, and I will be left emotionally unfulfilled and my life will be a failure. 
I recognise that my wife having left me has made this particularly sensitive to me now, like it is even more important now. 

So, at least in the mean time, I need to focus on being OK with myself.

But, there is a practical side to this debate as well and it is what I struggle with.


----------



## poida

lostmyreligion said:


> You fall in lust with the packaging but you fall in _love_ with the contents.


Thank you so much. This girl is the most beautiful person inside I have ever met. I will try to feel that and see where it takes me.
I think I can sleep now.


----------



## cool12

was it still hot hot hot once you were getting it on?
it's interesting to me that after the act you are already looking for another conquest. 
when it's hot like that i just want more of that!


----------



## GusPolinski

cool12 said:


> was it still hot hot hot once you were getting it on?
> it's interesting to me that after the act you are already looking for another conquest.
> when it's hot like that i just want more of that!


Yeah... I'm thoroughly confused.

poida, what is it about her that has you rethinking how you feel about her?


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> was it still hot hot hot once you were getting it on?
> it's interesting to me that after the act you are already looking for another conquest.
> when it's hot like that i just want more of that!


It was super hot and the chemistry is amazing which is why I find the feeling so distressing. I guess it is normal and that is what I'm discussing.


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> Yeah... I'm thoroughly confused.
> 
> poida, what is it about her that has you rethinking how you feel about her?


Honestly I don't know. I guess I prefer quite slim women, but she has a nice figure, balanced let's say.

I think I might be just making an unfair comparison to the skinny and toned body my wife has that I am so used to after so long. 

It all seems very superficial to me, but, it's how I feel.


----------



## GusPolinski

poida said:


> Honestly I don't know. I guess I prefer quite slim women, but she has a nice figure, balanced let's say.
> 
> I think I might be just making an unfair comparison to the skinny and toned body my wife has that I am so used to after so long.
> 
> It all seems very superficial to me, but, it's how I feel.


Uhhh... I'd let this go. There's absolutely no point in obsessing over a little bit of extra weight, especially when a) it's not on you and b) everything else "just clicks". Concentrate on the chemistry. Seriously.

And, as I'm sure you've already discovered, a little bit of "cushion" makes the "pushin'" soooooooooo much better.

:smthumbup:


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh... I'd let this go. There's absolutely no point in obsessing over a little bit of extra weight, especially when a) it's not on you and b) everything else "just clicks". Concentrate on the chemistry. Seriously.
> 
> And, as I'm sure you've already discovered, a little bit of "cushion" makes the "pushin'" soooooooooo much better.
> 
> :smthumbup:


Thanks mate and I will. Indeed it does. She really is a great gal.


----------



## VFW

poida said:


> I think I might be just making an unfair comparison to the skinny and toned body my wife has that I am so used to after so long.


and how did that work out for you? Just sayin.


----------



## cool12

it's understandable that you are used to your WWs physique and if it's what you prefer, that's understandable too. 

i like a certain look too and it sounds shallow as hell but i probably wouldn't get involved with someone long term that was way outside of what turns me on. my H keeps himself fit because he knows that's what i like. i do the same for him


----------



## poida

VFW said:


> and how did that work out for you? Just sayin.


D*mn straight! I have finally realised that my WW was exactly who she was on the surface. There was no hidden "beautiful personality" hidden under the surface. it was simply my fantasy of who I thought she was. It has been a hard lesson to learn.

Which is why I now know that when someone is so genuine, caring, open and giving on the surface, they are truly a beautiful person inside.

I am yet to experience that in a woman that is visually stunning.


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> it's understandable that you are used to your WWs physique and if it's what you prefer, that's understandable too.
> 
> i like a certain look too and it sounds shallow as hell but i probably wouldn't get involved with someone long term that was way outside of what turns me on. my H keeps himself fit because he knows that's what i like. i do the same for him


I think it's just reality isn't it..... BUT having said that, I skinny wasn't my type before I met my WW, so I expect my ideal type will shift again.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Which is why I now know that when someone is so genuine, caring, open and giving on the surface, they are truly a beautiful person inside.
> 
> I am yet to experience that in a woman that is visually stunning.


When DD23 was growing up, I'd tell her not to go for the gorgeous guys because typically, they have life easier than us mere mortals and haven't learned the hard knocks we have, things aren't handed to us like they are to gorgeous people. 

She's picked some real doozies, lol. And she's tried gorgeous ones too and realized that, yep, looks ain't everything. She's finally found someone who ticks off all the boxes on her list. Cute, but not gorgeous. He's making her really really happy.

I know men are more visual, they usually look for looks first and then maybe remember to see if the woman has a brain and a personality. But you've seen now that that's maybe not a great plan, yes?


----------



## GusPolinski

Hey so how is the house coming along? Or maybe this new gal is taking up too much of your time...?

Tell you what, why not combine business and pleasure? Ask her to come over and help you finish off those last few tasks. I'm sure your STBXW would just looooove that.


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> Hey so how is the house coming along? Or maybe this new gal is taking up too much of your time...?
> 
> Tell you what, why not combine business and pleasure? Ask her to come over and help you finish off those last few tasks. I'm sure your STBXW would just looooove that.


Yes, well, progress on the house has slowed, but I am getting there. 
I have suggested she come over (not to help) and it's a bit of an issue for her. I can understand. It's early days. I think she wants to keep it cut and dry and I don't blame her. She did drop me off at home the other night though. baby steps.

I have my 35th Birthday party on Saturday at home so once that is done and out of the way, I can get on with it!.

I'm so close now that I can just get it done my myself.


----------



## poida

And BTW, I really don't care what the STBXW thinks now. I'm past all that!!!! 
Yesterday, I un-facebooked her. 
A real step forward for me.


----------



## GusPolinski

poida said:


> And BTW, I really don't care what the STBXW thinks now. I'm past all that!!!!
> Yesterday, I un-facebooked her.
> A real step forward for me.


You un-friended her or un-friended *and* blocked her?


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> You un-friended her or un-friended *and* blocked her?


No need to block. She will get the message.

I want to be independent without being nasty. No need for that, especially when we still haven't divorced and split assets.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> I just really don't want to hurt this girl. She has said she is scared of that, her friends have warned her about dating me and I'm worried I am simply turning it into a self for filling prophecy.
> Aghhhh!!!!:scratchhead:


Test by her... 

The proper response is not to say "I wont do that honey! Ill be a great lover and will be there no matter what!!"

Proper response (well, one of many): "Well im sorry hun but youre right- I am going to hurt you. (long pause) I mean im packing quite a pole and I know for a fact its going to hurt you." (evil smile or laugh). She knows youve heard what she said (important), and you respond with humor and ****iness (which she finds attractive). Its also mysterious to her since you never directly responded to her intent. 

Shes her own person- she can handle her own emotions. She knows this. Her words are just attempts to search for alpha and beta male characteristics. The more beta you poll, over time the less she feels until she finds a new male more alpha than yourself who is available. The latter part might not be intentional consciously, but it is a verified pattern of human subconscious behavior. The relationships that last have men who just ARE alpha in many ways, yet also incorporate beta characteristics into their personality.

You have both Poida. The problem is your delivery obscures alpha and virtually EXTOLS beta.


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Test by her...
> 
> The proper response is not to say "I wont do that honey! Ill be a great lover and will be there no matter what!!"
> 
> Proper response (well, one of many): "Well im sorry hun but youre right- I am going to hurt you. (long pause) I mean im packing quite a pole and I know for a fact its going to hurt you." (evil smile or laugh). She knows youve heard what she said (important), and you respond with humor and ****iness (which she finds attractive). Its also mysterious to her since you never directly responded to her intent.
> 
> Shes her own person- she can handle her own emotions. She knows this. Her words are just attempts to search for alpha and beta male characteristics. The more beta you poll, over time the less she feels until she finds a new male more alpha than yourself who is available. The latter part might not be intentional consciously, but it is a verified pattern of human subconscious behavior. The relationships that last have men who just ARE alpha in many ways, yet also incorporate beta characteristics into their personality.
> 
> You have both Poida. The problem is your delivery obscures alpha and virtually EXTOLS beta.


I will take this as the constructive criticism that you intend it to be. I know it is right, but something in my gets very defensive. I think it is the knowledge that I am still trying to change this balance in my life and having difficulty doing so.

I started to deal with this exact issue with my PC yesterday. We started to explore the emasculating and emotionally impossible situation that I was put in by my possessive, overprotective mother. My PC says there is a lot in this and I believe him.

It's really hard for me. I know all this, yet I have been conditioned my whole life to mentally "serve" women. I can't tell you how much I want to change.

All I can do is be aware of it, work on the root causes and practice practice practice.


----------



## turnera

How about writing out a list of things you and PC agree you shouldn't do for a woman, keep it in your wallet, and read it now and then?


----------



## poida

He is on holiday now for 4 weeks.
How about I make a list at lunch and post it here.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> I will take this as the constructive criticism that you intend it to be. I know it is right, but something in my gets very defensive. I think it is the knowledge that I am still trying to change this balance in my life and having difficulty doing so.
> 
> I started to deal with this exact issue with my PC yesterday. We started to explore the emasculating and emotionally impossible situation that I was put in by my possessive, overprotective mother. My PC says there is a lot in this and I believe him.
> 
> It's really hard for me. I know all this, yet I have been conditioned my whole life to mentally "serve" women. I can't tell you how much I want to change.
> 
> All I can do is be aware of it, work on the root causes and practice practice practice.


It is 100% intended to help you focus on projecting alpha male characteristics and on conveying your value implicitly through confidence.

Absolutely talk with your PC about this topic, and turnera's advice is solid as well.

I am not in any way attacking you; just trying to give you perspective


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> It is 100% intended to help you focus on projecting alpha male characteristics and on conveying your value implicitly through confidence.
> 
> Absolutely talk with your PC about this topic, and turnera's advice is solid as well.
> 
> I am not in any way attacking you; just trying to give you perspective


I know. I've really had enough of al this sh*t now. I just want to live a normal life and be happy. 

It's been an emotionally exhausting year.


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> D*mn straight! I have finally realised that my WW was exactly who she was on the surface. There was no hidden "beautiful personality" hidden under the surface. it was simply my fantasy of who I thought she was. It has been a hard lesson to learn.
> 
> Which is why I now know that when someone is so genuine, caring, open and giving on the surface, they are truly a beautiful person inside.


Yes, you were over analyzing her a bit there.


----------



## poida

lordmayhem said:


> Yes, you were over analyzing her a bit there.


Maybe, but realising that was a giant step forward for me.

Ready to start being a more normal guy now.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> How about writing out a list of things you and PC agree you shouldn't do for a woman, keep it in your wallet, and read it now and then?


Hi Guys, 
I know this is pathetic, but I need help with this. I now have the added stress and issue of sexual performance anxiety to deal with and if now affecting my new relationship. I have begun combined therapy for this with counselling, relaxation techniques and blue pills until I begin to gain confidence, relax and get past this phase of being so anxious. With this in mind, my list has become more complicated, and I'm worried that a lot of what you say I shouldn't say has already been said. Basically I'm just completely stressing out here and I feel like I'm just one messed up unit and stepping back toward depression. 
FYI, we have had one successful sexual encounter and it was a bit rushed and stressful for me.

So, here is so far what I have said;
- This happens sometimes in new relationships but it always goes away.
- It has nothing to do with my previous relationship I'm not thinking about that, nor my divorce, I'm just nervous.
- Oh god I'm sorry, I just want this to work (after failure)
- I really enjoy being with you and want to make love.
- You have a beautiful body etc and I want to be inside you.
- I feel the happiest I've ever been.
- For the first time in my life, I feel like I want to be a provider for someone.
- I'm not afraid of marriage. In fact, it's when the really good sex starts in my opinion.

LIST for what I should never say;
1. "Oh god I'm sorry"
2. 

Hmm..... As you can see, I'm struggling here and very stressed, confused etc etc.

ps I got another tester comment yesterday after another failed attempt at sex. I forget the wording, but it was something about "being the boss". I immediately quipped back "oh no you're not". She said, "Ohh.. so you want to be the boss huh" and smiled. I get what this was and for me it's a massive alarm bell. This is why I went to the doctor TODAY and got some pills and booked counselling. Unfortunately, this comment just adds another layer of pressure to me.

I wish I could just turn my f*cking head off for a while. It is driving me crazy.

Be kind.


----------



## turnera

I don't know what to say other than what I've been saying all along: you're not ready for a relationship.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> I don't know what to say other than what I've been saying all along: you're not ready for a relationship.


I really like this girl though...........
I know it's not a rebound. I know it's not just looking for emotional support or approval. It's just someone genuine I really like and it would be upsetting for me to let her go.

I am past a lot of those things, but I do agree I have a lot going on, a lot of emotional stress and generally more work to do on myself.

I would like to try to continue this relationship but take it slowly.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> I really like this girl though...........
> I know it's not a rebound. I know it's not just looking for emotional support or approval. It's just someone genuine I really like and it would be upsetting for me to let her go.
> 
> I am past a lot of those things, but I do agree I have a lot going on, a lot of emotional stress and generally more work to do on myself.
> 
> I would like to try to continue this relationship but take it slowly.


Yes, it very much IS a rebound. You also have significant confidence issues that are going to negatively affect your relationship (if they havent already).

Your words above are riddled with "beta" and "provider" and "insecure", even if the particular words arent explicitly stated in what you wrote.

Youre rushing into this situation...


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Yes, it very much IS a rebound. You also have significant confidence issues that are going to negatively affect your relationship (if they havent already).
> 
> Your words above are riddled with "beta" and "provider" and "insecure", even if the particular words arent explicitly stated in what you wrote.
> 
> Youre rushing into this situation...


 I hate all this sh*t. I'm completely over my life at the moment.


----------



## poida

I guess I am in denial. I just want to feel happy and normal again. I don't know that I can cope feeling **** any longer. It's all a bit too much.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> I hate all this sh*t. I'm completely over my life at the moment.


Dont say stuff like that dude (though I realize it may just be a figure of speech).. its important you focus on you and get your head up.

All the crap youre going through right now? ITS PART OF IT POIDA. Youve never been divorced before- youre living the rollercoaster of having a marriage end.

Breathe dude. Relax.

You know that girl youre seeing? Tell her you want to slow down and just take things easy. This isnt a race or a rush..


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Dont say stuff like that dude (though I realize it may just be a figure of speech).. its important you focus on you and get your head up.
> 
> All the crap youre going through right now? ITS PART OF IT POIDA. Youve never been divorced before- youre living the rollercoaster of having a marriage end.
> 
> Breathe dude. Relax.
> 
> You know that girl youre seeing? Tell her you want to slow down and just take things easy. This isnt a race or a rush..


Thanks.
I think I will say we need to slow it down. I'm doing my head in.
I'm not quite sure what exactly taking it easy means though. Are you saying make it a typical casual relationship with sex but no discussion about the future, plans etc. 
Non-exclusive? It's all new to me.


----------



## Cre8ify

Now is the time for eyes on the horizon. New course, new experiences, new adventures. You will miss much of it if you are worried about every bump. Big scheme of things there is no real pressure. The sex will come as nature has always seen to it.

After so much introspection, might be time to just live.


----------



## poida

Should I say I want to take it easy and ask her what she thinks that should mean or do you think I just focus on what I want.

Problem is, what I want is a relationship, Something I need to tell myself I DON'T NEED.

I've just never done casual relationships before. probably because of my sexual performance anxiety. it takes so long to get things going sexually that by then it's easier to continue to whatever.


----------



## bandit.45

Maybe you should join a monastery. 

Stop beating yourself up. I sort of agree with the others. It's too soon to be getting into a sexual relationship after the hell your ex put you through. In many ways you are she'll shocked.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Maybe you should join a monastery.
> 
> Stop beating yourself up. I sort of agree with the others. It's too soon to be getting into a sexual relationship after the hell your ex put you through. In many ways you are she'll shocked.


Yeah, I feel that way but I would feel very sad to let such a great gal back into the wild blue.


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> Yeah, I feel that way but I would feel very sad to let such a great gal back into the wild blue.


Great gals are not that rare. You'll find another.


----------



## Cre8ify

The anxiety would be consistent with NEED. Want sounds free and easy and take it as it comes.

[email protected] the monastery. More going on there than meets the eye.


----------



## tom67

Cre8ify said:


> The anxiety would be consistent with NEED. Want sounds free and easy and take it as it comes.
> 
> [email protected] the monastery. More going on there than meets the eye.



Don't drop that bar of soap.:rofl:


----------



## bandit.45

Cre8ify said:


> The anxiety would be consistent with NEED. Want sounds free and easy and take it as it comes.
> 
> [email protected] the monastery. More going on there than meets the eye.


You are pandering to a stereotype which is not consistent with the TAM ethos. 

Shame shame shame.


----------



## poida

Cre8ify said:


> The anxiety would be consistent with NEED. Want sounds free and easy and take it as it comes.
> 
> [email protected] the monastery. More going on there than meets the eye.


Yes, my PC and I discussed this just on Tuesday.

Essentially, he thinks this stems way back to my mother being possessive and as a boy, me being unable to meet her needs.

I can see how that would result in Beta type personality, and need to meet the needs of women.

I get all that and we are working on it. 

I still have to live a life though mate.


----------



## BobSimmons

poida said:


> Yes, my PC and I discussed this just on Tuesday.
> 
> Essentially, he thinks this stems way back to my mother being possessive and as a boy, me being unable to meet her needs.
> 
> I can see how that would result in Beta type personality, and need to meet the needs of women.
> 
> I get all that and we are working on it.
> 
> I still have to live a life though mate.


Beta smeta..I'm a very nice guy. I meet a chick and I'll probably act the nice fool, maybe naive..that is who I am and I'll never change..dont want to either but disrespect me and there's a 200 foot giant dropping the hammer down.

Fact is you are whom you are. And guess what, just like there are hard working people who have to scrap and claw to put roof's over heads, food on tables and tv's in the house..there are also people that just walk in and steal it.

There are people out there without morals who take emotional advantage of other people. Where most of us would know cheating is wrong and would hurt our partners, others don't have a problem running over you with a truck to get what they want.

Don't change who you are. Just have the n*ts next time to drop the hammer as soon as any disrespect or red flagism happens.


----------



## poida

BobSimmons said:


> Beta smeta..I'm a very nice guy. I meet a chick and I'll probably act the nice fool, maybe naive..that is who I am and I'll never change..dont want to either but disrespect me and there's a 200 foot giant dropping the hammer down.
> 
> Fact is you are whom you are. And guess what, just like there are hard working people who have to scrap and claw to put roof's over heads, food on tables and tv's in the house..there are also people that just walk in and steal it.
> 
> There are people out there without morals who take emotional advantage of other people. Where most of us would know cheating is wrong and would hurt our partners, others don't have a problem running over you with a truck to get what they want.
> 
> Don't change who you are. Just have the n*ts next time to drop the hammer as soon as any disrespect or red flagism happens.


Thanks Bob. I appreciate the positive comments. 
That is something I can proudly say I now have no issue with anymore. It took a divorce to wake me up to it, but I will accept no less than respect in the future. 

FYI, I just got back from sexual health counselling and my counsellor thinks the same thing. I might be being a bit too quick to jump ship at this stage. It has been suggested I try the combined sexual health therapy, take it all down a notch and just go with the flow.

I feel much more comfortable with that.

And no, I don't ever want to change who I am, I just need to keep in mind what is sexually attractive to women whilst I am who I am. That is, confidence, ethic, independence, strength and looking after MY needs.


----------



## turnera

BobSimmons said:


> Beta smeta..I'm a very nice guy. I meet a chick and I'll probably act the nice fool, maybe naive..that is who I am and I'll never change..dont want to either but disrespect me and there's a 200 foot giant dropping the hammer down.


Bob, that IS an alpha guy. He's as nice as the sky is blue - unless you hurt him or his loved ones. Then you don't get his nice any more. The beta takes it and keeps on being nice.


----------



## m0nk

bandit.45 said:


> Maybe you should join a monastery.
> 
> Stop beating yourself up. I sort of agree with the others. It's too soon to be getting into a sexual relationship after the hell your ex put you through. In many ways you are she'll shocked.


I relize this might have been in jest, but I'm going to piggyback on this idea. Poida, from what I've read and all the advice present here, I think it would definitely benefit you to join a metaphorical monastery where you study the religion of Poida. What I mean is you don't know YOU. You need to get in touch with yourself first, fix yourself FIRST, make yourself the priority FIRST so you know what you need and want out of a relationship. I realize this might feel like an epic fail in terms of the girl your with right now, but you do need to focus on yourself and be more selfish before you can adaquately GIVE to anyone else. From what I've read previously it sounds like you want to "take care of" or "provide" for a woman. People might dissent in terms of syntactical issues on the above, but I personally don't think there's anything WRONG with that, providing the woman does the same thing for the man; Poida, you won't be able to provide for anyone deserving until you first learn to provide for yourself. I vote for the monestary...in sum, abstain from heavy relationships for the time being. I'd go so far as to say abstain from sex and related activities for awhile until you are able to focus. Find out what makes YOU tick and what your needs and wants are so you don't attach your value to another person ever again. Apologies for any redundancy. Namaste.


----------



## poida

m0nk said:


> I relize this might have been in jest, but I'm going to piggyback on this idea. Poida, from what I've read and all the advice present here, I think it would definitely benefit you to join a metaphorical monastery where you study the religion of Poida. What I mean is you don't know YOU. You need to get in touch with yourself first, fix yourself FIRST, make yourself the priority FIRST so you know what you need and want out of a relationship. I realize this might feel like an epic fail in terms of the girl your with right now, but you do need to focus on yourself and be more selfish before you can adaquately GIVE to anyone else. From what I've read previously it sounds like you want to "take care of" or "provide" for a woman. People might dissent in terms of syntactical issues on the above, but I personally don't think there's anything WRONG with that, providing the woman does the same thing for the man; Poida, you won't be able to provide for anyone deserving until you first learn to provide for yourself. I vote for the monestary...in sum, abstain from heavy relationships for the time being. I'd go so far as to say abstain from sex and related activities for awhile until you are able to focus. Find out what makes YOU tick and what your needs and wants are so you don't attach your value to another person ever again. Apologies for any redundancy. Namaste.


For me, the "providing" realisation was a massive awakening for ME and it is more about meeting MY needs than that of others. It was not prompted by anybody else - it was something primal and animal that came from deep inside me. I think it has been misconstrued here as me yielding or bending to my perceived needs of yet another woman - not at all. In my opinion, it is a very positive thing, an awakening of the Alpha male that I have NEVER had before. The MAN that no longer just goes along with what his partner wants, a MAN that doesn't just react to his environment, a MAN with a PLAN, a FUTURE and a DREAM. I realised that what I wanted for ME was to be STRONG and in control of my life, to achieve great things, and to care and protect the people I love. I want to be the man of the house. I want to be the strong go-to. I want to be the emotional pillar. 

In this respect, I see what this new girlfriend has awoken in me as being extremely positive. I have NEVER had these types of feelings with another woman and it is the first time I am thinking about what I want rather than what my partner wants. Armed with all that I have learnt here in the last 8 months, I feel this new relationship to be very positive and healthy in all the ways that I now know are needed. I also understand the benefits of being alone and growing that way. Right now, I feel that I am getting more out of being IN a relationship, and I feel independent enough to have time alone as well.

And in respect to finding myself, I am doing this every day. For me, finding my Alpha has very much been driven by having the right kind of female influence. I don't think this would be the case for all men (nor would it be necessary for men very in touch with their Alpha side), but for me, it brings out some sort of primal reaction that is very stirring.

I am acutely aware however that the wrong kind of woman would be very counter productive. I also understand that moving too fast in a relationship would have the same affect.

I think the fact that I am now very aware of all of these things means that I can grow as a MAN whilst being with someone new who I care for. I find myself constantly evaluating MY needs and always looking at what makes ME happy.

I will keep your comments in mind though.


----------



## Cre8ify

I have found you to be highly introspective and can tell you have worked hard to find some answers. IFIWY enjoy your new woman, you deserve it.

Thanks to monk for ignoring my shameful monastery eruption. Seminary shenanigans a bit too close to home here.


----------



## poida

cre8ify said:


> i have found you to be highly introspective and can tell you have worked hard to find some answers. Ifiwy enjoy your new woman, you deserve it.
> 
> Thanks to monk for ignoring my shameful monastery eruption. Seminary shenanigans a bit too close to home here.


ifiwy?


----------



## Philat

If I Were You.


----------



## poida

Philat said:


> If I Were You.


In that case, I will.

Based on the texts I am getting I suspect she has bought sexy new underwear and has planned a sexy strip tease for me this afternoon.

I plan to take a Cialis (so I can relax and stop worrying about sh*t I shouldn't be worrying about) and enjoy the show.

Nervous but looking forward to it.


----------



## poida

And did I mention it's my birthday!!!!

It's my birthday present.


----------



## jld

Happy Birthday!!!


----------



## farsidejunky

Happy birthday brother.


----------



## BobSimmons

turnera said:


> Bob, that IS an alpha guy. He's as nice as the sky is blue - unless you hurt him or his loved ones. Then you don't get his nice any more. The beta takes it and keeps on being nice.


I think its a categorization that barely lends itself to humans as it does to animals (although we are animals) Human beings are fundamentally complicated creatures, lots of tough guys or "alphas" around other men but are ***** cats with their women.
Trouble is the word beta has now been lumped with the nice guy, who's docile and has no backbone, meanwhile the "alpha" is the take no mess, walk into a bar and walk out with your girl.

I'm a proud beta, albeit I used to be a naive beta who had to learn people will walk all over you. I'm still a nice guy..albeit a nice guy with a 200 pound hammer hidden behind his back.. so I guess I'm a betalpha.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

BobSimmons said:


> I think its a categorization that barely lends itself to humans as it does to animals (although we are animals) Human beings are fundamentally complicated creatures, lots of tough guys or "alphas" around other men but are ***** cats with their women.
> Trouble is the word beta has now been lumped with the nice guy, who's docile and has no backbone, meanwhile the "alpha" is the take no mess, walk into a bar and walk out with your girl.
> 
> I'm a proud beta, albeit I used to be a naive beta who had to learn people will walk all over you. I'm still a nice guy..albeit a nice guy with a 200 pound hammer hidden behind his back.. so I guess I'm a betalpha.


I agree.


----------



## poida

BobSimmons said:


> I think its a categorization that barely lends itself to humans as it does to animals (although we are animals) Human beings are fundamentally complicated creatures, lots of tough guys or "alphas" around other men but are ***** cats with their women.
> Trouble is the word beta has now been lumped with the nice guy, who's docile and has no backbone, meanwhile the "alpha" is the take no mess, walk into a bar and walk out with your girl.
> 
> I'm a proud beta, albeit I used to be a naive beta who had to learn people will walk all over you. I'm still a nice guy..albeit a nice guy with a 200 pound hammer hidden behind his back.. so I guess I'm a betalpha.


Awareness is the key. Once we know about a potential issue, that alone can prevent such an issue.


----------



## poida

Well, what a weekend............
A lot happened, but I have finally realised that OptPes is right.
I am not ready for a relationship.
Whilst I am totally accepting that my marriage is over and she cannot offer me what I need in a relationship, I am not over her sexually. I still have a thing for her and it is affecting my new relationship dramatically.
When I fantasise, I'm not thinking of my new girl, I'm thinking of my wife. 
It's definitely not what I want, and it's so incredibly unfair on my new girl and what I want for my future.
It is totally linked with what I have taken to be sexual anxiety where in fact, it is just my head telling me I'm not ready.
Sometimes I wish I was one of those guys who can just do it and move on.... it sure would make getting laid easier.
So, I now lie with a new conundrum as what to tell my new girl. I'm just going to have to tell her and break her heart I think. I don't know. Not happy.


----------



## illwill

poida said:


> Well, what a weekend............
> A lot happened, but I have finally realised that OptPes is right.
> I am not ready for a relationship.
> Whilst I am totally accepting that my marriage is over and she cannot offer me what I need in a relationship, I am not over her sexually. I still have a thing for her and it is affecting my new relationship dramatically.
> When I fantasise, I'm not thinking of my new girl, I'm thinking of my wife.
> It's definitely not what I want, and it's so incredibly unfair on my new girl and what I want for my future.
> It is totally linked with what I have taken to be sexual anxiety where in fact, it is just my head telling me I'm not ready.
> Sometimes I wish I was one of those guys who can just do it and move on.... it sure would make getting laid easier.
> So, I now lie with a new conundrum as what to tell my new girl. I'm just going to have to tell her and break her heart I think. I don't know. Not happy.


Therapy?


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> Well, what a weekend............
> A lot happened, but I have finally realised that OptPes is right.
> I am not ready for a relationship.
> Whilst I am totally accepting that my marriage is over and she cannot offer me what I need in a relationship, I am not over her sexually. I still have a thing for her and it is affecting my new relationship dramatically.
> When I fantasise, I'm not thinking of my new girl, I'm thinking of my wife.
> It's definitely not what I want, and it's so incredibly unfair on my new girl and what I want for my future.
> It is totally linked with what I have taken to be sexual anxiety where in fact, it is just my head telling me I'm not ready.
> Sometimes I wish I was one of those guys who can just do it and move on.... it sure would make getting laid easier.
> So, I now lie with a new conundrum as what to tell my new girl. I'm just going to have to tell her and break her heart I think. I don't know. Not happy.


Tell her the truth, but for her sake do NOT tell her youve thought of your wife during sex/foreplay, and do NOT say you miss your wifes body specifically.

You do not want foster an inferiority complex in this women (she doesnt deserve it). Actually more accurately is that MOST women have insecurities, and you dont want to make hers worse (for her sake). Say something generic like "I still have feelings for my crazy ****ty ex wife. I know, its stupid. I need some time and I think these feelings are the reason why I cant seem to really let go. Lets just take it easy? Hang out and catch a movie, go out for a bite to eat, etc? I like you as a person and im attracted to you as a woman, but my brain is still all fvcked up." The best way not to hurt her is to willingly include her in your life as a friend. Be aware that the news might make her very upset, and if it does, she may try anything to change your mind (including emotional bullying)...

You do not want to mention sex specifically- she will go crazy with insecurity due to that.

Please note the dynamics at play when you tell her "lets slow down and take it easy". Her reflex action will be to try and pull you closer, and that will likely make you push away even harder. This is EXACTLY one of the reasons your marriage failed- you were the one being clingy.

If she responds with "ok" and some class/respect, then you will have an even higher opinion of her. 

Do not do any of the above until at least a few others in this forum respond. I am one perspective, and other members might have valid criticisms of my ideas or may be able to shed better light on something Ive said or something not said.


----------



## WyshIknew

poida said:


> Well, what a weekend............
> A lot happened, but I have finally realised that OptPes is right.
> I am not ready for a relationship.
> Whilst I am totally accepting that my marriage is over and she cannot offer me what I need in a relationship, I am not over her sexually. I still have a thing for her and it is affecting my new relationship dramatically.
> When I fantasise, I'm not thinking of my new girl, I'm thinking of my wife.
> It's definitely not what I want, and it's so incredibly unfair on my new girl and what I want for my future.
> It is totally linked with what I have taken to be sexual anxiety where in fact, it is just my head telling me I'm not ready.
> Sometimes I wish I was one of those guys who can just do it and move on.... it sure would make getting laid easier.
> So, I now lie with a new conundrum as what to tell my new girl. I'm just going to have to tell her and break her heart I think. I don't know. Not happy.


Well just date her then.

If she's got any gumption she must realise you've just gone through a situation that is affecting you badly.

I would of thought that you would want to take it slow anyway. It doesn't *have* to be a full on highly charged romanceathon.


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> Therapy?


Booked for tomorrow.


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Tell her the truth, but for her sake do NOT tell her youve thought of your wife during sex/foreplay, and do NOT say you miss your wifes body specifically.
> 
> You do not want foster an inferiority complex in this women (she doesnt deserve it). Actually more accurately is that MOST women have insecurities, and you dont want to make hers worse (for her sake). Say something generic like "I still have feelings for my crazy ****ty ex wife. I know, its stupid. I need some time and I think these feelings are the reason why I cant seem to really let go. Lets just take it easy? Hang out and catch a movie, go out for a bite to eat, etc? I like you as a person and im attracted to you as a woman, but my brain is still all fvcked up." The best way not to hurt her is to willingly include her in your life as a friend. Be aware that the news might make her very upset, and if it does, she may try anything to change your mind (including emotional bullying)...
> 
> You do not want to mention sex specifically- she will go crazy with insecurity due to that.
> 
> Please note the dynamics at play when you tell her "lets slow down and take it easy". Her reflex action will be to try and pull you closer, and that will likely make you push away even harder. This is EXACTLY one of the reasons your marriage failed- you were the one being clingy.
> 
> If she responds with "ok" and some class/respect, then you will have an even higher opinion of her.
> 
> Do not do any of the above until at least a few others in this forum respond. I am one perspective, and other members might have valid criticisms of my ideas or may be able to shed better light on something Ive said or something not said.


Hi OpPes,
You know, your words "you aren't ready yet" had really been playing on my mind for a long time. It was just me exploring those feelings and accepting the reality of my body/mind telling me I'm not ready for a relationship. 
As you have been reading, I have been fighting my head to the point of total anxiety. I need to learn just to trust what my head is telling me and go with it.

Hurting this girl is the very last thing I want to do and it will upset me greatly if I did. BUT I also know that the truth is always the best (for all parties involved) and can actually provide positive outcomes where they might not be expected.

I had planned to catch up with her tonight and just tell her that whilst I really like her, and love to hang out with her, I'm still messed up over my b*itch ex and until I finally sell the house and cut the final strings, I'd like it if we could take it easy and enjoy being with each other.

hmmm....


----------



## poida

WyshIknew said:


> Well just date her then.
> 
> If she's got any gumption she must realise you've just gone through a situation that is affecting you badly.
> 
> I would of thought that you would want to take it slow anyway. It doesn't *have* to be a full on highly charged romanceathon.


You are right. It is just so unfair on her. 

The current stress of an expected sexual relationship is killing me at the moment though. I no longer have a choice. I need to speak up. 

Even as I write this, my gut knots up.....


----------



## happyman64

Just tell her the truth Poida.

It is all you can do.


----------



## cool12

tell her the truth minus the thinking of your ex whilst doing it part


----------



## turnera

The sooner the better.


----------



## Bartimaus

poida said:


> Booked for tomorrow.


Nothing wrong with getting help. Hey I just got back on here after being away for a 'fortnight', love those Aussie expressions. But poida, you remind me of myself a little so let me say this. We can't control our life completely nor anyone's life. My ex was as stubborn as a mule. The more I tried to get her to change, the worse she got. Even when I would plead with her. Her name rhymes with CONTRARY so I now call her CONTRARY _ _ _ _ in looking back at her behavior. She was as a mum to me somewhat also. Couldn't understand why a woman that met that childhood hurt in my heart wouldn't love and treat me as I wanted mum to but never got. But you know, she got me over that 'mum' need! I have grew up and now no longer codependent like that. I don't want a mum, I want an equal and a friend. We must face inward to find why we behave outwardly like we do. Find within yourself the self-assurance that will allow you to let your woman be her own person but only as long as she isn't a crazy. Oh....and while looking, stay away from the little town of Ararat, Victoria. I know one there. Lol. Seriously. I am in America,Ohio but visited Ararat.


----------



## Forest

poida said:


> You are right. It is just so unfair on her.
> 
> The current stress of an expected sexual relationship is killing me at the moment though. I no longer have a choice. I need to speak up.
> 
> Even as I write this, my gut knots up.....


Just an idea: 

Maybe focusing on your anxiety, worrying what to tell the new GF, etc is just making things worse. Like you and others have mentioned, there's nothing wrong with speaking up that the divorce business is very upsetting, so you feel you should go slow. Nothing wrong with that, you'd be happy to oblige her; she'll feel the same.

Then forget it. Let life happen, but don't worry needlessly about it beforehand. We all know that what we worry about usually never happens. 

In a few months you'll be shaking your head at why you wasted time worrying.


----------



## poida

Forest said:


> Just an idea:
> 
> Maybe focusing on your anxiety, worrying what to tell the new GF, etc is just making things worse. Like you and others have mentioned, there's nothing wrong with speaking up that the divorce business is very upsetting, so you feel you should go slow. Nothing wrong with that, you'd be happy to oblige her; she'll feel the same.
> 
> Then forget it. Let life happen, but don't worry needlessly about it beforehand. We all know that what we worry about usually never happens.
> 
> In a few months you'll be shaking your head at why you wasted time worrying.


Already shaking my head mate......

Went over to the GF house last night and told her about how I was feeling and how it was affecting me in our sexual relationship. That I was still messed up about the impending D and that I just needed to slow things down.

She was really great about it. In fact we made an ever deeper connection last night.

We agreed to abstain from sex for a while, I stayed the night, she wore underwear and with the pressure taken right down, let's just say there was absolutely NO problem at all downstairs. Damn reverse psychology!! A very enjoyable night. 

Thanks everyone! :smthumbup:


----------



## Turin74

Good on ya mate!

In simple term - you have been overthinking this. Pardon the way I'm putting this, you couldn't get it up once (no wonder after your ordeal) and went all guns blazing about it: deep inner search, therapy, etc. This created a reverse feedback loop - more you think about it, more fear of it stuck at 6.30. You.stopped being worried for one time - bingo.

Take it easy and you'll be fine.




poida said:


> Forest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just an idea:
> 
> Maybe focusing on your anxiety, worrying what to tell the new GF, etc is just making things worse. Like you and others have mentioned, there's nothing wrong with speaking up that the divorce business is very upsetting, so you feel you should go slow. Nothing wrong with that, you'd be happy to oblige her; she'll feel the same.
> 
> Then forget it. Let life happen, but don't worry needlessly about it beforehand. We all know that what we worry about usually never happens.
> 
> In a few months you'll be shaking your head at why you wasted time worrying.
> 
> 
> 
> Already shaking my head mate......
> 
> Went over to the GF house last night and told her about how I was feeling and how it was affecting me in our sexual relationship. That I was still messed up about the impending D and that I just needed to slow things down.
> 
> She was really great about it. In fact we made an ever deeper connection last night.
> 
> We agreed to abstain from sex for a while, I stayed the night, she wore underwear and with the pressure taken right down, let's just say there was absolutely NO problem at all downstairs. Damn reverse psychology!! A very enjoyable night.
> 
> Thanks everyone!
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## BashfulB

poida said:


> Already shaking my head mate......
> 
> Went over to the GF house last night and told her about how I was feeling and how it was affecting me in our sexual relationship. That I was still messed up about the impending D and that I just needed to slow things down.
> 
> She was really great about it. In fact we made an ever deeper connection last night.
> 
> We agreed to abstain from sex for a while, I stayed the night, she wore underwear and with the pressure taken right down, let's just say there was absolutely NO problem at all downstairs. Damn reverse psychology!! A very enjoyable night.
> 
> Thanks everyone! :smthumbup:


See, the minute you stopped trying it all fell into place. You got your mind out of the way and let your lambic system take over.


----------



## poida

ps Have been thinking about the WW, and the feelings I had for her last Friday. Went to sexual health counselling last night and was tasked to write a list of pros/cons to help me clarify how I feel and allow me the move on.


----------



## poida

Start of my list about how I feel about my WW (not going to list actions or history);

PROS;
- Sexually attracted to/comfortable with her body
- Attracted to her face
- Often kind/thoughtful
- Supportive (practically)
- Fun to hang out with
- Traditional values
- Motivated and driven

CONS;
- Unable to consider other's feelings
- Unable to empathise with others. 
- Mechanical sexually
- Not in touch with others emotionally 
- Unable to express her problems and feelings 

Wow..... I see a trend here.

I was married to a robot!!!!!!!!!!!! he he


----------



## Turin74

I like that, poida :
Pros:
1. ...
2...
...
101...

Con's
She cheated.




poida said:


> Start of my list about how I feel about my WW (not going to list actions or history);
> 
> PROS;
> - Sexually attracted to/comfortable with her body
> - Attracted to her face
> - Often kind/thoughtful
> - Supportive (practically)
> - Fun to hang out with
> - Traditional values
> - Motivated and driven
> 
> CONS;
> - Unable to consider other's feelings
> - Unable to empathise with others.
> - Mechanical sexually
> - Not in touch with others emotionally
> - Unable to express her problems and feelings
> 
> Wow..... I see a trend here.
> 
> I was married to a robot!!!!!!!!!!!! he he


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## bandit.45

Turin74 said:


> I like that, poida :
> Pros:
> 1. ...
> 2...
> ...
> 101...
> 
> Con's
> She cheated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



Yep. A cheating robot. A robo-ho.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Yep. A cheating robot. A robo-ho.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## poida

Turin74 said:


> I like that, poida :
> Pros:
> 1. ...
> 2...
> ...
> 101...
> 
> Con's
> She cheated.
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


As I said, I wasn't listing actions. 

But yeah...... it's that simple really isn't it.

ps When I visited the sexual health counsellor, she said that in all her years of counselling, she had NEVER come across anyone who was able to completely forget about a sexual infidelity that had occurred in a marriage that continued afterwards. And that for the most part, it deeply and permanently affected their relationship. Most admitted to not being truly happy and felt that they didn't ever feel they would be truly happy again, as they were before the infidelity. Interesting. I'm glad I'm out now.


----------



## illwill

Poida,

Um... you do realize you described Robo-ho as a sociopath, right? Right?


----------



## Decorum

poida said:


> When I visited the sexual health counsellor, she said that in all her years of counselling, she had NEVER come across anyone who was able to completely forget about a sexual infidelity that had occurred in a marriage that continued afterwards. And that for the most part, it deeply and permanently affected their relationship. Most admitted to not being truly happy and felt that they didn't ever feel they would be truly happy again, as they were before the infidelity. Interesting. I'm glad I'm out now.


----------



## Turin74

poida said:


> As I said, I wasn't listing actions.
> 
> .


OK, let's have it your way:

Cons: high probability of cheating (yeah, 100% actually)










What I'm saying, KISS principle and humor are your best friends now. I take it, there are no more contacts with XW now?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Bartimaus

poida said:


> Start of my list about how I feel about my WW (not going to list actions or history);
> 
> PROS;
> - Sexually attracted to/comfortable with her body
> - Attracted to her face
> - Often kind/thoughtful
> - Supportive (practically)
> - Fun to hang out with
> - Traditional values
> - Motivated and driven
> 
> CONS;
> - Unable to consider other's feelings
> - Unable to empathise with others.
> - Mechanical sexually
> - Not in touch with others emotionally
> - Unable to express her problems and feelings
> 
> Wow..... I see a trend here.
> 
> I was married to a robot!!!!!!!!!!!! he he



Must be something in the water brother...you just described my ex girl friend to a tee. You know what it is? Look at the 5 cons...perhaps it was depression, perhaps drug abuse, a physical problem, that motivated it but with her cheating on you and you tried to make it work...she was all about SELF,SELF,SELF. Could have been a childhood treatment or just her choice of how to be. Sometimes our SELF causes us to not be compatible with some people and no matter the feelings and effort we put into it, it becomes a nightmare of a web that can't be fixed without empathy and love.


----------



## poida

Bartimaus said:


> Must be something in the water brother...you just described my ex girl friend to a tee. You know what it is? Look at the 5 cons...perhaps it was depression, perhaps drug abuse, a physical problem, that motivated it but with her cheating on you and you tried to make it work...she was all about SELF,SELF,SELF. Could have been a childhood treatment or just her choice of how to be. Sometimes our SELF causes us to not be compatible with some people and no matter the feelings and effort we put into it, it becomes a nightmare of a web that can't be fixed without empathy and love.


Her dad was never there (worked offshore) and when he was, very distant and usually hid in his shed.

Mum didn't ever cope well with her husband being away. Tried her hardest to pretend that everything was just fine. Literally buried any and all issues that arose, pretended they didn't exist. Never told anyone how she felt or showed emotion. She is now an alcoholic.

So what we end up is a daughter, that appears balanced and well sorted on the surface, but underneath is a person who has had to learn to survive on her own but is incapable of sharing feelings, and totally unable to empathise with others. Also someone who is heavily reliant on their partner to be a father figure, someone rock solid, there all the time, and an emotional rock. Not me at all (well not before anyway). I have grown up a lot and am now a lot less reliant on approval from women and much more independent.

It all makes sense and in many ways I feel sorry for her.


----------



## poida

Turin74 said:


> OK, let's have it your way:
> 
> Cons: high probability of cheating (yeah, 100% actually)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I'm saying, KISS principle and humor are your best friends now. I take it, there are no more contacts with XW now?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Yeah, agreed. Just really enjoying being with my new girl now. Not over thinking it and just living in the moment. It has been really nice and we are really getting to know each other by abstaining.

No contact with ex other than the absolute necessary re: house sale. 

What happened last Friday was a stress/Viagra induced episode that I now look at in complete disbelief. I don't regret it though because now I feel more over her sexually than I ever have been.


----------



## poida

illwill said:


> Poida,
> 
> Um... you do realize you described Robo-ho as a sociopath, right? Right?


Just read the traits of a sociopath and HOLY SH*T!!!!!....... he he he. 

Not far off. Wow!!!!!!


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> Yeah, agreed. Just really enjoying being with my new girl now. Not over thinking it and just living in the moment. It has been really nice and we are really getting to know each other by abstaining.


He he....

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ! :rofl:

Let's see how long this lasts! :rofl:


----------



## poida

I'm reliably told about 1 more night that way I'm going..... he he he


----------



## poida

he he... Oh Bandit... can't fault you yet mate...
A weekend of very intense "activity" has proven me wrong again. Abstaining is off the cards............
I would like to report a very interesting shift in my thinking though.
I stayed home last night and I've realised (as many have told me), that I really am NOT ready for a relationship.... 
I think the whole sexual anxiety issue was a massive distraction from the obvious healing that I still have to do.
I am beginning to think clearer, beginning to find my motivation to make a new life for myself, beginning to get the simple things in my life back in order. Work, health, exercise, food, friends. 
It upsets me greatly to think about breaking up with this woman, but as a man, after a weekend of "conquering", that seems to be the natural emotion. 
We have spoken about just taking it easy and taking each day as it comes, but I seem unable to simply do that. I find myself worried about the future with her. I really don't want to hurt this girl and I know her expectations grow each day. It is a lot of pressure. I guess deep down, I still have reservations about her body. Everything is great, but I'm just not that into her body. Call me shallow, call me an arsehole, it's just how I feel, and I can't lie to myself.
The pain of being cheated on is very much still present and I can imagine it will be for a long time yet. It truly is the worst thing you can do to a man. Take heed ladies.


----------



## bandit.45

What is it specifically about her body you don't like?


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> What is it specifically about her body you don't like?


At the risk of offending female readers here, let's just say I prefer very slim women.

And if they are carrying a bit more on their legs and butt, I prefer a bubble butt.

Shallow?


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> At the risk of offending female readers here, let's just say I prefer very slim women.
> 
> And if they are carrying a bit more on their legs and butt, I prefer a bubble butt.
> 
> Shallow?


No. You like what you like. I like curvy, hippy women. But slim women have their good points too.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> At the risk of offending female readers here, let's just say I prefer very slim women.
> 
> And if they are carrying a bit more on their legs and butt, I prefer a bubble butt.
> 
> Shallow?


Yeah. Very shallow Poida. Go for the superficial outer "body". Why not? 

But hey, I'm not a guy, so I'll never understand the male fixation with surface beauty over a healthy and loving feminine soul.

The exquisite and loving mind of a healthy and integrated woman is what you should be searching for, not a "bubble butt". Lol!


----------



## turnera

Dr Harley says that Physical Attraction is usually one of a man's top 5 Emotional Needs, but not so for a woman. It is what it is; men seek out hot women; dates back to caveman days, to pick the 'best' (prettiest) cavewoman to make pretty cavebabies. Just as women typically have Financial Stability (ie, the ability to provide for - or 'protect' the family) as one of THEIR top 5 ENs. Which again dates back to caveman days, women not being strong enough to avoid being eaten and thus choosing the best (strongest) caveman.


----------



## cool12

poida said:


> At the risk of offending female readers here, let's just say I prefer very slim women.
> 
> And if they are carrying a bit more on their legs and butt, I prefer a bubble butt.
> 
> Shallow?


yes.
but i know what i prefer so i understand.

however, if you set your sights only on very slim women you are discounting at least 75% of the female population. 
keep in mind that "very slim" comes to very few women naturally. i'm in fabulous shape, a dancer's body (no not that kind of dancer! my chest is in perfect proportion to the rest of my body and not augmented, lol) and at 46 i have to exercise a lot to maintain that and watch everything i eat. unfkinfortunately as we age, keeping weight off becomes harder and harder. i've watched my average weight friends put on a couple each year and 10 years later, 15lbs heavier and that weight doesn't come off easily.
slim in your 30s does not mean slim the rest of your life.


i'm off topic here a bit but you just need to be very honest with yourself about narrowing your choices down so much, especially when you consider your looks. what if most of the very slim women want men with a head full of hair?


----------



## turnera

lol


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

turnera said:


> Dr Harley says that Physical Attraction is usually one of a man's top 5 Emotional Needs, but not so for a woman. It is what it is; men seek out hot women; dates back to caveman days, to pick the 'best' (prettiest) cavewoman to make pretty cavebabies. Just as women typically have Financial Stability (ie, the ability to provide for - or 'protect' the family) as one of THEIR top 5 ENs. Which again dates back to caveman days, women not being strong enough to avoid being eaten and thus choosing the best (strongest) caveman.


Yeah I get it on an intellectual level. But Poida has expressed in numerous posts about his desire for an empathetic, feeling type of woman who can share a deep emotional connection with him, so I don't get this latest post at all. Does that make him shallow? Whatever.

*shrugs*


----------



## turnera

meh

Men ALWAYS say that. What matters is what they DO.


----------



## bandit.45

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Yeah. Very shallow Poida. Go for the superficial outer "body". Why not?
> 
> But hey, I'm not a guy, so I'll never understand the male fixation with surface beauty over a healthy and loving feminine soul.
> 
> The exquisite and loving mind of a healthy and integrated woman is what you should be searching for, not a "bubble butt". Lol!


. 

Bunk. If you had a choice between frumpy construction worker with a heart of gold and a bad boy with Brad pitt's face you'd take the hot guy any day if he would have you. 

Women are no different than men when it comes to choosing mates by looks first.


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> Dr Harley says that Physical Attraction is usually one of a man's top 5 Emotional Needs, but not so for a woman. It is what it is; men seek out hot women; dates back to caveman days, to pick the 'best' (prettiest) cavewoman to make pretty cavebabies. Just as women typically have Financial Stability (ie, the ability to provide for - or 'protect' the family) as one of THEIR top 5 ENs. Which again dates back to caveman days, women not being strong enough to avoid being eaten and thus choosing the best (strongest) caveman.


He's wrong.


----------



## turnera

Agree to disagree. And, of course, it's a generalization.


----------



## SadSamIAm

turnera said:


> Agree to disagree. And, of course, it's a generalization.


I think that generalization was very true many years ago. Now that many women have careers, things have changed. Many women look after themselves financially so when looking at a mate, that isn't as important.

It is still somewhat true though for many women.


----------



## turnera

This thing goes way deeper than people give it credit for. Study the psychology and you'll see; humans don't change those basic drives and inhibitions over night. Maybe in 2 or 3 hundreds years, it will be out of us. But after only 50 years of women having access to real jobs? Not nearly enough time. We may like to THINK we've moved on, but the drive is still there.


----------



## naiveonedave

I agree turn. There are a lot of SAHM in my locale that dropped $50+K jobs to stay at home. Many women with children would do this if they were more financially secure.


----------



## bandit.45

Podia I just don't understand why you want to give up this gal. As long as she knows you are not ready for a heavy long term commitment, to stay with you or not is her decision. You have a warm, affectionate friend who enjoys having sex with you. I don't understand this reticence you have about having a sexual partner who is nothing more than that.

You are meeting each other's sexual needs, and needs for casual companionship. I don't see anything wrong with that.


----------



## ThePheonix

bandit.45 said:


> .
> 
> Bunk. If you had a choice between frumpy construction worker with a heart of gold and a bad boy with Brad pitt's face you'd take the hot guy any day if he would have you.


The trouble is those looking for a Brad Pitt are not an Angelina Jolie and vise versa. Just make sure you're not so mesmerized you cannot turn it loose if she (he) wants to go. And they all have the same plumbing.
Moreover, I like your taste in women.


----------



## turnera

> Bunk. If you had a choice between frumpy construction worker with a heart of gold and a bad boy with Brad pitt's face you'd take the hot guy any day if he would have you.


SO not true for nearly every single woman I've known. If you haven't tried both, maybe. But if you've tried the bad boy and come to realize what a crap sandwich you got handed, and escaped from it, you're far more likely to pick better next time.


----------



## lordmayhem




----------



## 3putt

turnera said:


> Dr Harley says that Physical Attraction is usually one of a man's top 5 Emotional Needs, but not so for a woman. It is what it is; men seek out hot women; dates back to caveman days, to pick the 'best' (prettiest) cavewoman to make pretty cavebabies. Just as women typically have Financial Stability (ie, the ability to provide for - or 'protect' the family) as one of THEIR top 5 ENs. Which again dates back to caveman days, women not being strong enough to avoid being eaten and thus choosing the best (strongest) caveman.





bandit.45 said:


> He's wrong.


Wrong about what exactly?


----------



## bandit.45

3putt said:


> Wrong about what exactly?


I question where he gets his empirical data.


----------



## 3putt

bandit.45 said:


> I question where he gets his empirical data.


40+ years of experience in counseling couples dealing with infidelity would be my guess.


----------



## bandit.45

3putt said:


> 40+ years of experience in counseling couples dealing with infidelity would be my guess.


I disagree.


----------



## illwill

bandit.45 said:


> He's wrong.


He is wrong about many many things. No such thing as a infidelity expert. Just a guy making money off of hope. False and real.


----------



## 3putt

bandit.45 said:


> I disagree.


Okay, but you never did answer my question about which part you actually disagree with. 

If it's the caveman analogy, I've never heard him say or write anything like that, although he certainly could have. If it's Physical Attraction almost always being one of the top 5 emotional needs (sexual fulfillment being another consistent top 5) of men, then he certainly has stated that....quite emphatically, and I totally agree. It's just who we are.


----------



## 3putt

illwill said:


> He is wrong about many many things. No such thing as a infidelity expert. Just a guy making money off of hope. False and real.


Then you obviously know absolutely nothing about the man and his track record.


----------



## illwill

3putt said:


> 40+ years of experience in counseling couples dealing with infidelity would be my guess.


When you sell hope to desperate people and they are paying for said hope, they are a lot more likely to believe it.

I know all about his expertise. 

By the way, is he cutting you a check too?


----------



## bandit.45

3putt said:


> Then you obviously know absolutely nothing about the man and his track record.


I disagree. 




(I'm just being disagreeable today.)


----------



## 3putt

bandit.45 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I'm just being disagreeable today.)


I see that.


----------



## illwill

3putt said:


> Then you obviously know absolutely nothing about the man and his track record.


I do.Very much so. Dont make assumptions. bro. Im just not desperate. And foolish enough to buy a fix it all pill for infidelity.

As you clearly are.

And what kind of check is he cutting you to push his um... advice?


----------



## 3putt

illwill said:


> When you sell hope to desperate people and they are paying for said hope, they are a lot more likely to believe it.
> 
> I know all about his expertise.
> 
> By the way, is he cutting you a check too?


Of course they're likely to believe when he actually helps them recover. It's not my fault you're too lazy to read the countless success stories to back it up. It's all there in black and white for those that take the time to see it.

Yeah, he's paying me. SMH


----------



## 3putt

illwill said:


> I do.Very much so. Dont make assumptions. bro. Im just not desperate. And foolish enough to buy a fix it all pill for infidelity.
> 
> As you clearly are.
> 
> And what kind of check is he cutting you to push his um... advice?


I never said it was a fix all, just a great solution for those that do choose to recover.

Your problem is that is that it would appear you don't believe in recovery under any circumstances, so that's going to distort your view on any recovery methods.


----------



## bandit.45

All right....3putt....Illwill.....take it out back.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

bandit.45 said:


> .
> 
> Bunk. If you had a choice between frumpy construction worker with a heart of gold and a bad boy with Brad pitt's face you'd take the hot guy any day if he would have you.
> 
> Women are no different than men when it comes to choosing mates by looks first.


Sorry bandit. Don't often disagree with your posts, but have to call you out on this one.

Bad boys with Brad Pitt' faces don't do it for me. Give me the construction worker with the heart of Gold any day.

My taste in men is an integrated one. Give me a HEALTHY Alpha with a heart of gold and I don't care wether he's a frumpy construction worker or a man sweeping the streets. 

The eyes have it anyway. Look past the body and into the soul. What do you see there? Health? Love? A fully integrated person? 

These are worth way more than a "bubble butt"

The external gloss eventually will fade anyway. What are you left with then? A beautiful and loving heart will remain when the "bubble butt" is wrinkled and wobbly.

But whatever floats your boat Bandit.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Podia I just don't understand why you want to give up this gal. As long as she knows you are not ready for a heavy long term commitment, to stay with you or not is her decision. You have a warm, affectionate friend who enjoys having sex with you. I don't understand this reticence you have about having a sexual partner who is nothing more than that.
> 
> You are meeting each other's sexual needs, and needs for casual companionship. I don't see anything wrong with that.


You know Bandit.... I don't understand it either.

We have been having a great time and sex at least twice a day at the moment. We are very compatible people and she is a truly caring yet independently strong person. You are right, she is one of the few people I have met capable of a casual relationship and happy to go with the flow.

BUT, there something still weighs on my mind...... I think it is three things;

1. After 12 years with a skinny, very toned woman, I have become accustomed to that type of body. I think that is just natural.

2. Another thing that I am still working on is my remanent need to satisfy women (meeting the needs of). More specifically, looking way into the future and if I can't picture a perfect end game where I am happy, sexually satisfied and attracted to that person, I panic. I look for an out. I am more worried about hurting someone else in the long term than my own short term well-being. It's self torture and seriously messed up. I need to focus on how I feel. I will get there with more PC.

3. I feel like there is still a primal body type I am attracted to that still weighs on my mind. How important this part is I'm not sure. Perhaps it is best to give it some time. 

What scares me is I don't remember feeling this way with my WW when we first met. I remember thinking small boobs....hmmm.... but I can live with that, but that is all I remember.

I just really, really don't want to hurt this girl by letting this go on and then break up later on. 

Feeling shallow and I don't like it......


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

bandit.45 said:


> Podia I just don't understand why you want to give up this gal.


Because he wants a sexy bubble butt with a lithe, firm body he can adore, but yet can also share her deepest fears, desires and emotional needs with him, while empathising completely with his greatest and most profound anxieties maybe?


----------



## poida

And I think it is important to acknowledge that men often feel shallow and don't like it, yet, it's how we feel...

It is primal.....It is caveman.....

It is the reason our heads nearly fall off when a hot young, sexy female walks past on the street.

Finding the balance in a long term relationship is harder than most acknowledge and it is such a taboo subject in our society that the vast majority of men would not dare discuss it.

The fact is that every man wants to have sex with a smoking hot girl. And men will compromise their chances of martial happiness to do so. There is no getting around it. It's a fact.


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Because he wants a sexy bubble butt with a lithe, firm body he can adore, but yet can also share her deepest fears, desires and emotional needs with him, while empathising completely with his greatest and most profound anxieties maybe?


See, now you get it.................

Ridiculous I know..... but.......its what men want.


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> All right....3putt....Illwill.....take it out back.


Okay uncle bandit


----------



## tom67

The fact is that every man wants to have sex with a smoking hot girl. And men will compromise their chances of martial happiness to do so. There is no getting around it. It's a fact.

To a point my man...
As you get older you will notice decent looking women who are more attractive because they are genuine.
Can't quantify it exactly but do not let this one go yet.
Just think about it.
Look longer term.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> You know Bandit.... I don't understand it either.
> 
> We have been having a great time and sex at least twice a day at the moment. We are very compatible people and she is a truly caring yet independently strong person. You are right, she is one of the few people I have met capable of a casual relationship and happy to go with the flow.
> 
> BUT, there something still weighs on my mind...... I think it is three things;
> 
> 1. After 12 years with a skinny, very toned woman, I have become accustomed to that type of body. I think that is just natural.
> 
> 2. Another thing that I am still working on is my remanent need to satisfy women (meeting the needs of). More specifically, looking way into the future and if I can't picture a perfect end game where I am happy, sexually satisfied and attracted to that person, I panic. I look for an out. I am more worried about hurting someone else in the long term than my own short term well-being. It's self torture and seriously messed up. I need to focus on how I feel. I will get there with more PC.
> 
> 3. I feel like there is still a primal body type I am attracted to that still weighs on my mind. How important this part is I'm not sure. Perhaps it is best to give it some time.
> 
> What scares me is I don't remember feeling this way with my WW when we first met. I remember thinking small boobs....hmmm.... but I can live with that, but that is all I remember.
> 
> *I just really, really don't want to hurt this girl by letting this go on and then break up later on. *
> 
> Feeling shallow and I don't like it......


You won't hurt her if you open up to your vulnerability and tell her exactly how you feel. She will know then where you are coming from and can use her innate intelligence to make a decision about taking a risk and staying with you or not. 

Whatever happens after that is down to her. You will then NOT be responsible for hurting her, she will have done that to herself.


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Look longer term.


OK.:toast:


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

tom67 said:


> The fact is that every man wants to have sex with a smoking hot girl. And men will compromise their chances of martial happiness to do so. There is no getting around it. It's a fact.


Yeah I know and it's sad, sad for the children that are left in the tumultuous wake of marriages where the men are only wanting the superficial delights of sexy sirens with bubble butts. 

If men are prepared to sacrifice their chances of marital happiness for the sake of the above then so be it and they get everything they deserve.

As a woman I've been accused of being being pro men many times before and I always scoffed at the idea, because I really couldn't care less what other women and the odd man thought about my anti feminism stance, but I have to say these last few posts have opened my eyes just a little. 

(But only a little  )


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> You won't hurt her if you open up to your vulnerability and tell her exactly how you feel. She will know then where you are coming from and can use her innate intelligence to make a decision about taking a risk and staying with you or not.
> 
> Whatever happens after that is down to her. You will then NOT be responsible for hurting her, she will have done that to herself.


Wow.... that would be VERY open. I'm not sure how a woman would react to that on an emotional level. I think it could be quite hurtful.

I'll think about it. It has the potential to very much deepen the relationship, or end it..... a bit scary either way.


----------



## tom67

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Yeah I know and it's sad, sad for the children that are left in the tumultuous wake of marriages where the men are only wanting the superficial delights of sexy sirens with bubble butts.
> 
> If men are prepared to sacrifice their chances of marital happiness for the sake of the above then so be it and they get everything they deserve.
> 
> As a woman I've been accused of being being pro men many times before and I always scoffed at the idea, because I really couldn't care less what other women and the odd man thought about my anti feminism stance, but I have to say these last few posts have opened my eyes just a little.
> 
> (But only a little  )


Sorry I was quoting poida
I agree with him but to a point.
As I am 15 to 20 years older than him yes attractive is important but not as much as when I was his age that's all.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Poida if this statement of yours is true,


> I am more worried about hurting someone else in the long term than my own short term well-being. It's self torture and seriously messed up.


and she is a woman who is worth having a LT relationship with, then feel the fear and do it anyway. She will love you all the more it if she is healthy and integrated. If she's not, then you are better off if she does walk away, simply because she's frightened of that level of intimacy and this is what you really want in a woman is it not?

I thought you didn't like her body enough anyway?


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Poida if this statement of yours is true,
> and she is a woman who is worth having a LT relationship with, then feel the fear and do it anyway. She will love you all the more it if she is healthy and integrated. If she's not, then you are better off if she does walk away, simply because she's frightened of that level of intimacy and this is what you really want in a woman is it not?
> 
> I thought you didn't like her body enough anyway?


I'm not sure you get it yet.

I don't know how important it is to me yet because of other factors in my life (See points, 1 2 3).


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> I'm not sure you get it yet.
> 
> I don't know how important it is to me yet because of other factors in my life (See points, 1 2 3).


Poida work out to clear your mind and do the kiss= keep it simple stupid
One day or two just effin go with the flow sounds like you are studying the meaning of life everyday.
Easy killer you are too young for this JUST ENJOY.


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Poida work out to clear your mind and do the kiss= keep it simple stupid
> One day or two just effin go with the flow sounds like you are studying the meaning of life everyday.
> Easy killer you are too young for this JUST ENJOY.


Yeah, I had planned to go to the gym tonight for a good work out. Moderate drinking each night doesn't help.

It has been 9 months of HAVING to work through stuff just to cope from day to day so yeah.....it has become a habit to think too much.

I do have a tendency to over-analyse everything though to make sense of it. My PC reminds me just to sit with my emotions and accept them. I will try for the rest of the week not to worry about it.

A massive weight will have been lifted once I sell the house which goes up for sale next week. Seeing the WW intermittently at the house does mess me up. The cheeky B got changed in the house on Sunday and left her door open knowing full well I was about to walk past and cop an eye full.... aghhh.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

So you don't want the level of intimacy where you can be completely open and vulnerable to a woman in an LTR and she likewise? 

Sorry, maybe I don't get it then.

Do you think being honest and vulnerable about how you feel around what body type you prefer in a woman will hurt her? Why? 
If you couch it in a sensitive manner and say it in such a way that she knows the issue lies solely with you and not with her, why should she be hurt? You are the one with the "problem", not her.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Yeah, I had planned to go to the gym tonight for a good work out. Moderate drinking each night doesn't help.
> 
> It has been 9 months of HAVING to work through stuff just to cope from day to day so yeah.....it has become a habit to think too much.
> 
> I do have a tendency to over-analyse everything though to make sense of it. My PC reminds me just to sit with my emotions and accept them. I will try for the rest of the week not to worry about it.
> 
> A massive weight will have been lifted once I sell the house which goes up for sale next week. Seeing the WW intermittently at the house does mess me up. The cheeky B got changed in the house on Sunday and left her door open knowing full well I was about to walk past and cop an eye full.... aghhh.


That's when you jump her for one last rompand then take a shower.:lol:


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> So you don't want the level of intimacy where you can be completely open and vulnerable to a woman in an LTR and she likewise?
> 
> Sorry, maybe I don't get it then.
> 
> Do you think being honest and vulnerable about how you feel around what body type you prefer in a woman will hurt her? Why?
> If you couch it in a sensitive manner and say it in such a way that she knows the issue lies solely with you and not with her, why should she be hurt? You are the one with the "problem", not her.



I still think she would be self conscious and hurt. I mean who wouldn't.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> I still think she would be self conscious and hurt. I mean who wouldn't.


That depends on wether or not she's a woman that is integrated enough that can see that all you are doing is trying to be open and honest about how you feel. You can still show appreciation for her body. (But only if you really do. If you don't, then kindly let her go.)

Maybe your wife was trying to unconsciously reflect back to you that you actually really fear the intimacy that you have espoused as a need so much on this thread? You say you don't want to hurt anyone and I understand this, but being emotionally open and vulnerable to an intimate partner sometimes one does run that risk, but that's what being really intimate and open means.

If she is woman that you say you REALLY want, then she will see that and not take it personally. 

Maybe you are not so ready for TRUE intimacy yet as you thought you were?


----------



## tom67

Have you read MMSLP I think you did no?


----------



## bandit.45

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Because he wants a sexy bubble butt with a lithe, firm body he can adore, but yet can also share her deepest fears, desires and emotional needs with him, while empathising completely with his greatest and most profound anxieties maybe?



Ohhhhh..... Puke. 

No. Right now he needs to get laid and detach from that puta flaca he was married to.


----------



## bandit.45

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Sorry bandit. Don't often disagree with your posts, but have to call you out on this one.
> 
> Bad boys with Brad Pitt' faces don't do it for me. Give me the construction worker with the heart of Gold any day.
> 
> My taste in men is an integrated one. Give me a HEALTHY Alpha with a heart of gold and I don't care wether he's a frumpy construction worker or a man sweeping the streets.
> 
> The eyes have it anyway. Look past the body and into the soul. What do you see there? Health? Love? A fully integrated person?
> 
> These are worth way more than a "bubble butt"
> 
> The external gloss eventually will fade anyway. What are you left with then? A beautiful and loving heart will remain when the "bubble butt" is wrinkled and wobbly.
> 
> But whatever floats your boat Bandit.



I hate boats. I'm a desert boy. I get seasick.


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> I hate boats. I'm a desert boy. I get seasick.


I had to take dramamine on our way to catalina
When I was 6.


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> And I think it is important to acknowledge that men often feel shallow and don't like it, yet, it's how we feel...
> 
> It is primal.....It is caveman.....
> 
> It is the reason our heads nearly fall off when a hot young, sexy female walks past on the street.
> 
> Finding the balance in a long term relationship is harder than most acknowledge and it is such a taboo subject in our society that the vast majority of men would not dare discuss it.
> 
> The fact is that every man wants to have sex with a smoking hot girl. And men will compromise their chances of martial happiness to do so. There is no getting around it. It's a fact.


You're a man but you think like a woman. 

You over analyze the fvck out of everything. Seriously. 

Let go and live your life. Quit worrying about tomorrow so much. Tomorrow will take care of itself. Enjoy this woman that the ethers have bestowed upon you. Don't make her any promises. Just enjoy her and please her and let her please you.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

bandit.45 said:


> I hate boats. I'm a desert boy. I get seasick.


I love the desert too! Just got back from a six week trip into the deserts of North West Australia and didn't want to come home.


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> You're a man but you think like a woman.
> 
> You over analyze the fvck out of everything. Seriously.
> 
> Let go and live your life. Quit worrying about tomorrow so much. Tomorrow will take care of itself. Enjoy this woman that the ethers have bestowed upon you. Don't make her any promises. Just enjoy her and please her and let her please you.


Just way too much mental masturbation here
so to speak.
Again MMSLP married mans sex life primer.
Do me a favor
PM Jerry123 have a conversation tell him I sent you.
He is a SAHD and has 3 or 4 women hitting on him that's all I'll say on that.


----------



## tom67

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I love the desert too! Just got back from a six week trip into the deserts of North West Australia and didn't want to come home.


I like you don't really have a winter.


----------



## bandit.45

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I love the desert too! Just got back from a six week trip into the deserts of North West Australia and didn't want to come home.


I want to rent a BMW Dakar and ride the roads in the Outback for a couple of weeks.


----------



## bandit.45

tom67 said:


> I had to take dramamine on our way to catalina
> When I was 6.


Catalina is fun. I dig the pigmy bison.


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Catalina is fun. I dig the pigmy bison.


That was nothing with the swells you get leaving bodega bay heading towards san fran.
God mother lives in Sacramento now.
Culver City way back when.


----------



## tom67

Bandit here is a claasic aussie morning show classic

Today Karl Stefanovic loses it over breast and long pokey comment - YouTube


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Have you read MMSLP I think you did no?


YEP. It has helped greatly understand the reality and mechanisms in male/female relationships. 

I don't recall any particular part about body attraction?


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Ohhhhh..... Puke.
> 
> No. Right now he needs to get laid and detach from that puta flaca he was married to.


That is what I am doing. And it's a damn good time.

It's my bloody brain getting in the way thinking about all the other crap that is annoying me.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> You're a man but you think like a woman.
> 
> You over analyze the fvck out of everything. Seriously.
> 
> Let go and live your life. Quit worrying about tomorrow so much. Tomorrow will take care of itself. Enjoy this woman that the ethers have bestowed upon you. Don't make her any promises. Just enjoy her and please her and let her please you.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

Deal.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> YEP. It has helped greatly understand the reality and mechanisms in male/female relationships.
> 
> I don't recall any particular part about body attraction?


It's about confidence and a mindset.
She constantly sh!ttests him.
He may move on one day who knows but this can be done.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> That is what I am doing. And it's a damn good time.
> 
> It's my bloody brain getting in the way thinking about all the other crap that is annoying me.


Think with little Elvis once in a while.
Can't believe I'm saying this:scratchhead:


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

tom67 said:


> Think with little Elvis once in a while.
> Can't believe I'm saying this:scratchhead:


I spilt my cuppa all over my keyboard when I read this lol!
:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## poida

Nothing that exciting, just plain old "Fred", the old boy full of lead.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

tom67 said:


> The fact is that every man wants to have sex with a smoking hot girl. And men will compromise their chances of martial happiness to do so. There is no getting around it. It's a fact.
> 
> To a point my man...
> As you get older you will notice decent looking women who are more attractive because they are genuine.
> Can't quantify it exactly but do not let this one go yet.
> Just think about it.
> Look longer term.


I thought about mentioning this a few pages back, but I didnt want to gallavant on about a situation Ive had on Poida's thread.

A girl I dated a while back was at least a "9.5" by most male standards. I have always had a preference for curvy girls (maybe because Im thin). She fit this description. My guy friends all "complimented" me, and she got looks everywhere. However, despite having a great sex life, I couldnt really talk with her. We were simply interested in different things. Her appearance sort of "changed" to me... by the end of the relationship I wasnt really physically attracted to her.

A while later I was single and a girl came into my social circle. I distinctly remember thinking "she looks.. strange". I didnt find her attractive at all.

Until we actually started talking to each other. She had confidence, a wild smile, sarcasm, and she treated people with respect. I know exactly what you mean above, because I swear that girl's appearance just CHANGED in my head. I became very attracted to her physically through her personality.

Unfortunately, we didnt really mesh well sexually and that undid us. But I will never forget that transition. I would have taken her over any woman alive, and it had to have nothing to do with looks alone otherwise I would have been attracted to her in the first place. Im not sure this makes sense..

I think it must have to do with the brain's secretion of glutamate, serotonin and especially oxytocin and dopamine. These chemicals result in us feeling, and they are absorbed through various receptor sites in the brain. It must be that any physical sensory input (a logical input suggesting genetic quality) affects secretion significantly less than their personality manages to, and thus "meh" becomes "hottie" and "flaw" becomes "cute quirk of hers". Sorry for rambling here..



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Yeah I know and it's sad, sad for the children that are left in the tumultuous wake of marriages where the men are only wanting the superficial delights of sexy sirens with bubble butts.
> 
> If men are prepared to sacrifice their chances of marital happiness for the sake of the above then so be it and they get everything they deserve.
> 
> As a woman I've been accused of being being pro men many times before and I always scoffed at the idea, because I really couldn't care less what other women and the odd man thought about my anti feminism stance, but I have to say these last few posts have opened my eyes just a little.
> 
> (But only a little  )


Not all men are that way. My father (who was my best friend, I loved, and who kicked a**) died when I was 15- I know what its like to both have a father, and to not have a father. I would crawl through seven circles of hell to be there for any child I ever have.

I think boundaries play a key role here as well. The moment I can tell another woman likes me, I tell her "look, you seem like a nice girl, but I am happily taken". I dont care if its socially appropriate- Im not doing it to impress anyone. It is something discussed often here on TAM. 

I should say I identify with aspects of your anti-feminism stance as well. More specifically, Im a huge supporter of both 1st and 2nd wave feminism, but I am not a supporter of the fringe extreme of the latter. I think it has made women in some ways more materialistic, and it has made man hating prevalent in the dominant narrative (and hence emasculated many men). 

There is a difference between "equal" and "same" in the case of men vs. women. Men and women are equal, but they are not the same. Both excel in different areas- and both should be given equal chance to demonstrate their capacity in all facets of life. I know this is a bit off-topic and since YET AGAIN my response is approaching novel status cussing Ill stop here..


bandit.45 said:


> I want to rent a BMW Dakar and ride the roads in the Outback for a couple of weeks.


Have you ever visited the site ADVrider? Youd be right at home there  I took a DR650 on a trip to Alaska so I can say this with certainty- make it happen man! You wont regret it!!

The Outback would be wildly awesome to explore


----------



## Turin74

OK, in can't help it! So, Tom you see Poida's little Elvis took some time off... and Poida went straight into the overanalysis brain overheat mode. Life is so about balance...




tom67 said:


> poida said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is what I am doing. And it's a damn good time.
> 
> It's my bloody brain getting in the way thinking about all the other crap that is annoying me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Think with little Elvis once in a while.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't believe I'm saying this
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## turnera

bandit.45 said:


> Ohhhhh..... Puke.
> 
> No. Right now he needs to get laid and detach from that puta flaca he was married to.


Isn't that what he's been trying to do - and failing?

IMO, he needs to accept that he should be alone for a few more months with his thoughts and feelings and take the time to really go through the grief stages and TRULY move on. And THEN step outside the door and look for someone to date.


----------



## cool12

one's physical appearance has so little to do with sexual compatibility or skill as a lover. looks only go so far in the sack. i'm sure we've all experienced a hottie that was a disappointing lay.
it's too bad really that society suggests, to men more than women, that the hot ones are the ones you should want to fvck.


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> Isn't that what he's been trying to do - and failing?
> 
> IMO, he needs to accept that he should be alone for a few more months with his thoughts and feelings and take the time to really go through the grief stages and TRULY move on. And THEN step outside the door and look for someone to date.


Yeah but he's already got someone, and as long as he does not get emotionally invested in her to a deep degree, I don't think he should throw away a good thing. This woman is helping him to rebuild his sense of masculinity and self esteem that his WW destroyed.


----------



## bandit.45

cool12 said:


> one's physical appearance has so little to do with sexual compatibility or skill as a lover. looks only go so far in the sack. i'm sure we've all experienced a hottie that was a disappointing lay.
> it's too bad really that society suggests, to men more than women, that the hot ones are the ones you should want to fvck.


On behalf of fugly dudes everywhere....I thank you for that post.


----------



## aug

cool12 said:


> one's physical appearance has so little to do with sexual compatibility or skill as a lover. looks only go so far in the sack. i'm sure we've all experienced a hottie that was a disappointing lay.
> i*t's too bad really that society suggests, to men more than women, that the hot ones are the ones you should want to fvck*.



Though, being hot is a necessary ingredient.


----------



## cool12

aug said:


> Though, being hot is a necessary ingredient.



a necessary ingredient for what?
it certainly helps to be hot "for" each other but physical appearance has nothing to do with one's skills at satisfying their lover.


----------



## cool12

bandit.45 said:


> On behalf of fugly dudes everywhere....I thank you for that post.



you are so very welcome. 
the misconception that hot physical appearance means a hot lay doesn't serve any of us.


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I know exactly what you mean above, because I swear that girl's appearance just CHANGED in my head. I became very attracted to her physically through her personality.
> 
> I think it must have to do with the brain's secretion of glutamate, serotonin and especially oxytocin and dopamine. These chemicals result in us feeling, and they are absorbed through various receptor sites in the brain. It must be that any physical sensory input (a logical input suggesting genetic quality) affects secretion significantly less than their personality manages to, and thus "meh" becomes "hottie" and "flaw" becomes "cute quirk of hers". Sorry for rambling here..


You know what OP, this happened to me on the second date with this new Gal. Hew face literally morphed. I was like "what the?". It is an amazing thing and certainly a mechanism caused during our evolution. The purpose is obvious. It is to allow a chemical change which would allow a male to "settle down" and stop seeking other cavewomen to impregnate. As you say, not everybody has this. It is amazing none the less to see the "morph".


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Isn't that what he's been trying to do - and failing?
> 
> IMO, he needs to accept that he should be alone for a few more months with his thoughts and feelings and take the time to really go through the grief stages and TRULY move on. And THEN step outside the door and look for someone to date.


OK, time for an update.

After seeing my sexual counsellor and have being given non-sexual exercises to do (touching basically), I had about had enough.

I knew I had this it in me, I was doing my head in and it was not only causing massive stress, but also causing me to question the relationship and as a result I became be much less attracted to the woman I was with (reverse of above "morph" I would suggest).

I made the tough decision to try Cialis and see what happens. We had a great date and went to bed. We touched etc and it got pretty heavy but I insisted we didn't do anything that night. I got up a bit early and popped a pill and went back to bed. Whilst the pill no doubt had an affect, the fact we had such a great time the night before that meant I was finally starting to relax around this woman. Well, all went to plan and well, not to brag, but I was amazing.....4 times.....:rofl:

Fast forward 4 days to today and I haven't touched a pill since. Last night and this morning were both amazing and I am really beginning to appreciate her body.... REALLY. Amazing, but it's true. Sure she has cellulite and a bit of a tum, but who doesn't. 

We have really connected intellectually and we really enjoy being with each other. 

This morning we bit the bullet and booked a 4 day holiday at a remote resort in Broome. It is 3 weeks away but I'm not worried anymore. Things are great.

I'm really getting my mojo back. I feel confident, my work ethic is coming back and I'm happy.

I'm not thinking about falling for this woman and for once in my life I don't feel like I am expected to do so. I am just doing what feels good and right and enjoying her company. In fact I'm so comfortable with my situation without even thinking about commitment etc, I didn't bat en eyelid when she said her mum was in town Wednesday and wanted to meet me. I said "sure" and I was feeling "doesn't matter either way to me right now".

You know, Bandit is right. Sometimes men just need to find their way again, and a casual relationship can be exactly that change that makes all the difference.

I have to admit I'm quite proud of myself for sticking with it and working through all this. I feel like a changed man.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Good on ya Poida! Have fun in Broome! I was there several weeks ago for a few days. 

If you get the chance do the sunset cruise on the Intombi. 
She's an immaculate old pearling lugger built in 1911. We had an amazing and beautiful afternoon sailing off Cable Beach with delicious food and wine to enjoy while we watched the sun go down.


----------



## poida

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Good on ya Poida! Have fun in Broome! I was there several weeks ago for a few days.
> 
> If you get the chance do the sunset cruise on the Intombi.
> She's an immaculate old pearling lugger built in 1911. We had an amazing and beautiful afternoon sailing off Cable Beach with delicious food and wine to enjoy while we watched the sun go down.


Will do. Wanted to do that last time but didn't get a chance. Not lugging along a whining wife this time.


----------



## poida

I've been trying to do my bit and participate and help people in other topics. I think it is a great way of healing as it re-enforces the path you have taken, the signs of cheating, and the reasons why I left my WW.
It does however remind me of the bad old times and I've been a bit down in the dumps over the last couple days.
Does anyone else get the same feelings just by being here supporting others? How do you handle it?


----------



## farsidejunky

Yes. Triggers, brother. Triggers. The thing about triggers: for me, the more frequently they are triggered, the less amplified they become. It is probably different for everyone.


----------



## aug

cool12 said:


> a necessary ingredient for what?
> it certainly helps to be hot "for" each other but physical appearance has nothing to do with one's skills at satisfying their lover.


Well, good for you.


----------



## cool12

whatever. it was a simple question.


----------



## poida

Easy girls.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

Rushwater said:


> I'm sorry that you are in this situation, my friend, but I'm here to tell you, she is simply buying for time. If you really want to get to the bottom of her crap, demand a polygraph immediately, or the marriage is OVER, EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY. Yes, polygraphs can be expensive, but you will, more than likely get a parking lot confession (as in, she confessess everything, in the parking lot, just prior to the polygraph). You sir, are being played. Someone earlier said that if she really loved you, she would be moving heaven and Earth. She IS NOT in love with you. She absolutely, DOES NOT RESPECT YOU. You are a Plan B. The problem is, although you feel that you have become a better person (ie. you are over her cheating; weight loss, etc.) your actions SCREAM of codependency. When you mentioned that "when she is gone, she is gone for good", you were basically disclosing your worst fear. If she was in love with you, I can assure, she would NOT be gone for good. You, however, already know that she is not in love with you. Praise God that you do not have children with this woman. Get out now, while you are still young, and find a woman who adores and respects you. I promise, you will look back on this debacle and say to yourself "WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING"????


Ha ha! WHAT WAS I THINKING!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

poida said:


> I've been trying to do my bit and participate and help people in other topics. I think it is a great way of healing as it re-enforces the path you have taken, the signs of cheating, and the reasons why I left my WW.
> It does however remind me of the bad old times and I've been a bit down in the dumps over the last couple days.
> *Does anyone else get the same feelings just by being here supporting others?*


Yes.



poida said:


> How do you handle it?


I log out and find something else to occupy my time for a few days.

How is your house coming along?


----------



## poida

Very close. Real estate agent signed up. Window cleaners and gardener here Saturday. Should be on the market mid week. Agent recons high 9s which would be nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

poida said:


> Very close. Real estate agent signed up. Window cleaners and gardener here Saturday. Should be on the market mid week. Agent recons high 9s which would be nice.


Nice! How is the divorce proceeding?


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> Nice! How is the divorce proceeding?


Australia mate. Can't even apply until November.
I can't wait!!!!!!!!! 
I am so over this crap.


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> Australia mate. Can't even apply until November.
> I can't wait!!!!!!!!!
> I am so over this crap.


Podia...

Papua New Guinea is beckoning you...


----------



## Decorum

poida said:


> I've been trying to do my bit and participate and help people in other topics. I think it is a great way of healing as it re-enforces the path you have taken, the signs of cheating, and the reasons why I left my WW.


Poida I saw some of your posts in other threads and I wanted to just check in and say I was glad to see that.

Btw it is easy to fall into idealism when discussing relationships on here, (not talking about your posts in other threads, I am talking about this thread), it's good to visualize what is possible but no one really attains it (at least I have never seen it), so go easy on yourself and keep it real.

I wish you well, you have come a loooong way!
Take care!


----------



## poida

Decorum said:


> Poida I saw some of your posts in other threads and I wanted to just check in and say I was glad to see that.
> 
> Btw it is easy to fall into idealism when discussing relationships on here, (not talking about your posts in other threads, I am talking about this thread), it's good to visualize what is possible but no one really attains it (at least I have never seen it), so go easy on yourself and keep it real.
> 
> I wish you well, you have come a loooong way!
> Take care!


Thanks mate. 

Yeah, I'm hearing you about the perfection thing.

At the moment I'm still battling a bit with other women's bodies if I'm honest. I know it shouldn't matter. But it seems that right now.... it is on my mind.
Add to that and I'm in my mid thirties. I'm hardly Fabio anymore myself, balding, wrinkles, things starting to drop. 
So why am I so sensitive to how women's bodies look right now.
Perhaps it is as simple as the fact that the last time I was dating (13 years ago), all of the women were in their peak, early 20's, and honestly a lot of them had fricken awesome bods.
I don't know what to do about it.
I think I will just keep dating and see where it takes me.
It does trouble me though.

One foot in front of the other...................

Have a good weekend all!!! I'm going to let my hair down tonight.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> I'm hardly Fabio anymore myself, balding, wrinkles, things starting to drop.
> So why am I so sensitive to how women's bodies look right now.


Perhaps you're projecting?


----------



## cool12

does your new friend exercise? eat right?
sex is a great way to burn calories


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> So why am I so sensitive to how women's bodies look right now.


Because given your situation, you NEED to prove to yourself and everyone else that you're valuable enough, hot enough, great enough, to catch the hot foxes and not have to settle for mere mortals. It's basic psychology. What's missing is your love of YOURSELF. If you loved yourself, it wouldn't matter what anyone thought about who you hook up with, because YOU would know you're a great catch.


----------



## poida

cool12 said:


> does your new friend exercise? eat right?
> sex is a great way to burn calories


Yes, she looks after herself, eats well. A very typical women's body. Not athletic, but completely normal for a woman her age.

Not to brag but a WHOLE LOT of calories got burnt overnight. I'm exhausted.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Because given your situation, you NEED to prove to yourself and everyone else that you're valuable enough, hot enough, great enough, to catch the hot foxes and not have to settle for mere mortals. It's basic psychology. What's missing is your love of YOURSELF. If you loved yourself, it wouldn't matter what anyone thought about who you hook up with, because YOU would know you're a great catch.


Amazing you say this. I was thinking exactly the same thing driving in this morning.

I was actually visualising breaking up with this girl. Not something I really want to do though. I'm happy, the sex is great, we get along great, I'm getting a lot of confidence back and I'm really enjoying her company. I'm not feeling "it" so much though at the moment. 

The moral question for the day is.... if everything else is great and you aren't feeling "it", but you aren't sure (feelings changing all the time), should you tell them?

Maybe more time alone???


----------



## turnera

Definitely more time alone; I recommend not being with a new person, after divorce, more than once a week, at MOST. Make sure that person doesn't become what you come to depend on.

I also recommend being honest with her; women DO tend to get more romantically involved, usually.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

poida said:


> Amazing you say this. I was thinking exactly the same thing driving in this morning.
> 
> I was actually visualising breaking up with this girl. Not something I really want to do though. I'm happy, the sex is great, we get along great, I'm getting a lot of confidence back and I'm really enjoying her company. I'm not feeling "it" so much though at the moment.
> 
> The moral question for the day is.... if everything else is great and you aren't feeling "it", but you aren't sure (feelings changing all the time), should you tell them?
> 
> Maybe more time alone???


In your quest of Ms. Perfect Body, I would think that other attributes would be more important for you than how she's going to look when you post her on your Facebook account.

I would think that her being faithful and honest would trump your need for her having a triathlonist physique.

Unless of course you are just looking for some nice window dressing, until your D is finalized...


----------



## poida

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> In your quest of Ms. Perfect Body, I would think that other attributes would be more important for you than how she's going to look when you post her on your Facebook account.
> 
> I would think that her being faithful and honest would trump your need for her having a triathlonist physique.
> 
> Unless of course you are just looking for some nice window dressing, until your D is finalized...


It's not that.

I get it, it makes sense, I want someone with morals, honesty etc, I know a hot bod fades over the years, I know I'm hardly Fabio myself, but I still think about exactly how attracted I am. I can't help it.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> It's not that.
> 
> I get it, it makes sense, I want someone with morals, honesty etc, I know a hot bod fades over the years, I know I'm hardly Fabio myself, but I still think about exactly how attracted I am. I can't help it.


Dude take your time here.
So your ex was a little hotter how did that work out.:banghead::banghead:


----------



## turnera

You realize, right, that how hot a woman is has absolutely NOTHING to do with HER, and everything to do with her parents? Kinda like seeking out a particular woman who has the right dowry.


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Dude take your time here.
> So your ex was a little hotter how did that work out.:banghead::banghead:


OK, so my ex was pretty damn hot. And she knew it......

I guess I just don't want to hurt this new girl. 

I know she got hurt in her last relationship. He gets up one day after 2 years, says he doesn't love her and leaves.

I suppose I have my answer right there. I guess I need to be honest and wind things back a bit.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> You realize, right, that how hot a woman is has absolutely NOTHING to do with HER, and everything to do with her parents? Kinda like seeking out a particular woman who has the right dowry.


Physical attraction is an important part of a male's relationship. What more can I say.


----------



## turnera

No, I get that, totally. I'm just trying to get you to see that if you let that guide you, you're really shooting yourself in the foot. Find a woman who is REASONABLY attractive but has a lot going for her in terms of soul, personality, having fun, etc. Even the deck a little.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> OK, so my ex was pretty damn hot. And she knew it......
> 
> I guess I just don't want to hurt this new girl.
> 
> I know she got hurt in her last relationship. He gets up one day after 2 years, says he doesn't love her and leaves.
> 
> I suppose I have my answer right there. I guess I need to be honest and wind things back a bit.



Poida only you can tell.
Having trust in a spouse is golden.
Just think about it.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

I totally understand the conversation going on here, but I got to say- if you meet the right woman, she will BECOME a model in your eyes. Your heart and mind will do it.

If this woman has you feeling doubts, then it wont likely become long term. Fvck it. I said it.

I dont think it has as much to do with physicality as it does with implicit physicality due to how you FEEL personally about the woman.

As you seem an empathetic type of person, I caution you to consider what she feels or will feel when the time comes.


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I totally understand the conversation going on here, but I got to say- if you meet the right woman, she will BECOME a model in your eyes. Your heart and mind will do it.
> 
> If this woman has you feeling doubts, then it wont likely become long term. Fvck it. I said it.
> 
> I dont think it has as much to do with physicality as it does with implicit physicality due to how you FEEL personally about the woman.
> 
> As you seem an empathetic type of person, I caution you to consider what she feels or will feel when the time comes.


You are right of course. And having been in love before, I know how this feels. 

I suppose I'm still second guessing myself because of my current mess. It hardly allows for a fresh look at things when I'm stressed out and thinking about other things, the WW and the house sale etc etc

We have a 4 day holiday planned together in a couple weeks. I think I'll wind back a bit until then and see how the holiday goes.

And of course.... STOP THINKING SO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!

On the positive side, "Little Elvis" is having a great time. No more problems whatsoever. Sex is not an issue. it's fantastic in fact.


----------



## Turin74

This meant to be a question, right? 

Are you trying to get TAM to convince you to make a decision you are already wanting to make?




poida said:


> I was actually visualising breaking up with this girl. Not something I really want to do though.* I'm happy, the sex is great, we get along great, I'm getting a lot of confidence back and I'm really enjoying her company. *I'm not feeling "it" so much though at the moment.
> 
> The moral question for the day is.... if everything else is great and you aren't feeling "it", but you aren't sure (*feelings changing all the time[/b[), should you tell them?
> 
> Maybe more time alone???*


*

Posted via Topify on Android*


----------



## Mr Blunt

> On the positive side, "Little Elvis" is having a great time. No more problems whatsoever. Sex is not an issue. it's fantastic in fact.


*I am glad that Elvis has not left the building and is still a “Hunk of Burning Love”*:smthumbup:


----------



## tom67

Mr Blunt said:


> *I am glad that Elvis has not left the building and is still a “Hunk of Burning Love”*:smthumbup:


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Turin74 said:


> This meant to be a question, right?
> 
> Are you trying to get TAM to convince you to make a decision you are already wanting to make?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Actually, this is exactly what it seems like Poida is doing. Very good catch Turin74. Whether you meant it lightly or in-your-face, youre exactly right.

And Poida, since were relatively cool now im going to throw you the "fix yourself" eye again- why the f are you looking to us for approval with how you handle this current relationship?

Dont bullsh*t me- tell it like it is. This is you demonstrating YET AGAIN a lack of confidence and needing some external entity to validate your desired decisions (just as you did with your STBXW). 

Im sure many of us have picked up on Poida doing this, but until Turin74 noone came right out and said it. Poida, you are being a panzy again, and you need to fix it.

Tough love, again, brotha!


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Actually, this is exactly what it seems like Poida is doing. Very good catch Turin74. Whether you meant it lightly or in-your-face, youre exactly right.
> 
> And Poida, since were relatively cool now im going to throw you the "fix yourself" eye again- why the f are you looking to us for approval with how you handle this current relationship?
> 
> Dont bullsh*t me- tell it like it is. This is you demonstrating YET AGAIN a lack of confidence and needing some external entity to validate your desired decisions (just as you did with your STBXW).
> 
> Im sure many of us have picked up on Poida doing this, but until Turin74 noone came right out and said it. Poida, you are being a panzy again, and you need to fix it.
> 
> Tough love, again, brotha!


No sweat OptPes. Like water off duck's back mate...

No actually it's not like that at all...

I know how I feel, and if nothing changes, it won't be a long term relationship. 

What I am doing is reaching out to those who have been cheated on to see what their experiences have been in my situation, and whether they have experienced any "doubt" about their subsequent partners, that after time and the benefit of hind-sight, found that the "doubt" was completely unfounded and of no significance and simply a result of stress/emotional pain from being cheated on.

The reason I'm asking rather than telling you is because I still change from day to day (as you would have seen in my posts), and what I HAVE learnt over the last year is that sometimes what I think isn't affecting me, is affecting me very significantly. As I tick off the list of things to cut free from my marriage, I feel this weight being lifted and I often find myself thinking/feeling quite differently about things.

So in a nut-shell, has anyone been with a new woman after separating from a WW, then occasionally had doubts about your emotional/physical attraction to that woman, but that with time and healing and letting go of the memory of the WW, turned out to be a fantastic new relationship with a deep connection after all?

I think I need some space and some time.......I'm not ready to make such decisions - THIS, I know for sure.


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> No sweat OptPes. Like water off duck's back mate...
> 
> No actually it's not like that at all...
> 
> I know how I feel, and if nothing changes, it won't be a long term relationship.
> 
> What I am doing is reaching out to those who have been cheated on to see what their experiences have been in my situation, and whether they have experienced any "doubt" about their subsequent partners, that after time and the benefit of hind-sight, found that the "doubt" was completely unfounded and of no significance and simply a result of stress/emotional pain from being cheated on.
> 
> The reason I'm asking rather than telling you is because I still change from day to day (as you would have seen in my posts), and what I HAVE learnt over the last year is that sometimes what I think isn't affecting me, is affecting me very significantly. As I tick off the list of things to cut free from my marriage, I feel this weight being lifted and I often find myself thinking/feeling quite differently about things.
> 
> So in a nut-shell, has anyone been with a new woman after separating from a WW, then occasionally had doubts about your emotional/physical attraction to that woman, but that with time and healing and letting go of the memory of the WW, turned out to be a fantastic new relationship with a deep connection after all?
> 
> I think I need some space and some time.......I'm not ready to make such decisions - THIS, I know for sure.


Okay...


It's confirmed. 

Poida you're a woman. :lol:


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> No sweat OptPes. Like water off duck's back mate...
> 
> No actually it's not like that at all...
> 
> I know how I feel, and if nothing changes, it won't be a long term relationship.
> 
> What I am doing is reaching out to those who have been cheated on to see what their experiences have been in my situation, and whether they have experienced any "doubt" about their subsequent partners, that after time and the benefit of hind-sight, found that the "doubt" was completely unfounded and of no significance and simply a result of stress/emotional pain from being cheated on.
> 
> The reason I'm asking rather than telling you is because I still change from day to day (as you would have seen in my posts), and what I HAVE learnt over the last year is that sometimes what I think isn't affecting me, is affecting me very significantly. As I tick off the list of things to cut free from my marriage, I feel this weight being lifted and I often find myself thinking/feeling quite differently about things.
> 
> So in a nut-shell, has anyone been with a new woman after separating from a WW, then occasionally had doubts about your emotional/physical attraction to that woman, but that with time and healing and letting go of the memory of the WW, turned out to be a fantastic new relationship with a deep connection after all?
> 
> I think I need some space and some time.......I'm not ready to make such decisions - THIS, I know for sure.


If someone were to ask me what the term "rationalization of insecurity" meant, I would point them to this post.

You arent into the woman- you are into the glorification of yourself. You are fresh out of a relationship with a cheater, your confidence has been repeatedly demonstrated as lacking, and you are not ready for a long term future with a woman yet.

This is why all of us have encouraged restraint, going slow, taking it easy, no commitment, etc etc- you need *TIME*

Time is the panacea for neurochemical insanity.

I guess you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this and thats fine, but read back through other comments and at least keep it in mind..


----------



## bandit.45

Poida just keep giving your gal-pal what she's wanting and quit worrying about it.


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> If someone were to ask me what the term "rationalization of insecurity" meant, I would point them to this post.
> 
> You arent into the woman- you are into the glorification of yourself. You are fresh out of a relationship with a cheater, your confidence has been repeatedly demonstrated as lacking, and you are not ready for a long term future with a woman yet.
> 
> This is why all of us have encouraged restraint, going slow, taking it easy, no commitment, etc etc- you need *TIME*
> 
> Time is the panacea for neurochemical insanity.
> 
> I guess you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this and thats fine, but read back through other comments and at least keep it in mind..


No disagreement here. Sounds about right.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Poida just keep giving your gal-pal what she's wanting and quit worrying about it.


Alright alright.!!!


----------



## poida

You know, I don't know many men who are the man we are saying we should be. Practically every man I know is beta. It's a problem.


----------



## Turin74

poida said:


> You know, I don't know many men who are the man we are saying we should be. Practically every man I know is beta. It's a problem.


Could you please tell me which area are you in? I'd love to spend holidays there  

On a serious note, use what happened to you to be the 1st alpha in a pack. Start with stopping worrying about everything.

Disclaimer: I do not believe in this aplha beta teta stuff

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## m0nk

Every man is a mix of both...but an "alpha" knows when to say when. If you're planning on dropping this girl, why are you leading her on with "Little Elvis," going on holiday, etc.? It seems the reason you keep seeking this validation is because you are potentially and cognizantly hurting someone else while YOU get what you need. The problem is selfish people in society using others for personal gain and not for the good of the collective. There's a time and place to be selfish...like when your partner is aware of it...in the bedroom, for example. I still think it best to not be in a relationship right now...does she know the possibility of you breaking up with her? I think you need to be honest lest you hurt someone even more. Just an opinion...namaste.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

m0nk said:


> Every man is a mix of both...but an "alpha" knows when to say when. If you're planning on dropping this girl, why are you leading her on with "Little Elvis," going on holiday, etc.? It seems the reason you keep seeking this validation is because you are potentially and cognizantly hurting someone else while YOU get what you need. The problem is selfish people in society using others for personal gain and not for the good of the collective. There's a time and place to be selfish...like when your partner is aware of it...in the bedroom, for example. I still think it best to not be in a relationship right now...does she know the possibility of you breaking up with her? I think you need to be honest lest you hurt someone even more. Just an opinion...namaste.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have exactly the same opinion.

But the fact remains that I really enjoy being with this girl, we make each other happy and we have a good time. At present I'm just not sure she is "the one" and I doubt I will know until the house is sold, I've moved into a new house and divorce is settled.

Add to that the fact I'm at a point of maximum head f*ck, selling house, still necessary contact with WW. It hardly allows a clear mind with the ability to immerse myself in the relationship and see where it goes.

I am allowing myself to keep things casual for the moment and mindful of letting things go too far.

I think there is a big difference between being knowingly misleading and confused as f*ck and enjoying each others company.


----------



## turnera

meh, just have some fun. Just make sure SHE knows that's all it is.


----------



## poida

Plus, exactly the same doubt occurs all the time in normal new relationships. 

So, what you are proposing is that there is no socially acceptable period of time to continue a relationship when one party isn't sure if it will be a long term relationship.

The reality is that we aren't always be sure. Good things can come with time. How can we possibly predict emotional growth between two people. Its complicated.

And this is why casual relationships often continue, even when people aren't sure.

So, using your idealistic view of things. If you don't fall IN LOVE the moment you meet someone, how many days do you have to drop them.......... so? so?


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> meh, just have some fun. Just make sure SHE knows that's all it is.


Once again, Turnera hits the discussion point on the head.

THIS is what I need to make sure is clear, and I will do so tonight.

If she isn't up for that then that's fine too. I don't want her hurt.

I think a holiday together is still fine if we are both on the same page.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Poida, consider your approach to answering our questions/responses- you agree with us and "but", OR you disagree but then heavily rationalize why you disagree. Your words and approach scream beta, but unlike many you ARE thinking and aware of the value of having alpha characteristics. This might be a little crass, but I think your approach to life should be roughly like this: "That dude Poida rolled in and was swinging his d*ck around like he owned the place!" 

Turin74, I look at "alpha" and "beta" etc as lingual labels roughly approximating the manner in which a man responds to his environment. On another thread (or earlier in this one) someone posted all the different classifications, and there are a number of them.

"Beta" is a label describing behavior that involves service; it is beta to be submissive to abuse, to allow others to call all the shots, or to allow one's own principles to be violated. However, there are GOOD aspects of "beta" too- emotional empathy, the will to take care of another, the ability to be compassionate and/or forgiving, etc.

"Alpha" is a label describing behavior that involves dominance; it is alpha to force an idea by beating someone's a**, to do whatever suits your self best regardless of what it costs someone else, and to be wholly unforgiving towards any flaw you might encounter. However, there are also GOOD aspects of "alpha" as well- willingness to stand bold in threat for a cause, the means to mentally or physically find ways to gain the resources used for provision by "beta" behavior, the ability to follow principle even when socially outnumbered, the ability to not let anything destroy your mood in the long term, etc.

Generally, all of us agree that it is best to combine Alpha and Beta behavior. Poida is on this path now, but I feel he is still too mired in the "neurochemical insanity" any person going through divorce experiences. He needs to, again IMO, sack up and start approaching this as an alpha.

Poida: "<chicks name>, I decided I wanted to send you this. I will confess Ive been having reservations about "us" in the long term lately. That said, I do like you and I enjoy being with you. The best I can understand is that im still dealing with crap from the divorce of my psycho ex wife, a woman who despite turning out to be a POS is nonetheless a woman I loved. Bottom line is this: I care about how you feel, and so I want to make it clear that if we go forward, we do so understanding I really dont know how it turns out. You might not be right for me and I havent realized it yet. So I give you the choice. What do YOU want to do here? Im fine moving on if thats what you need, but I enjoy being around you too so Im game to keep this going without any long-term expectation. Before you try to rip my balls off for this, understand im trying to do the right thing and so just as I respect you, I expect you to do the same."

This is telling it like it is, but incorporating beta characteristics as well (to limit or try to limit the hurt she may experience).

Shoot that off in an email or whatever and see what she says.. she may very well be hurt, but its bound to hurt less than 6 months from now. And maybe she just says "thats cool". Then, you can just approach it with "whatever, well see what happens".


----------



## poida

I had something like that in mind. I do like your wording.

Whilst I might stuff up the wording a bit, I think it more authorative and respectful in person.


----------



## poida

We had a talk last night. I don't remember the wording well but..

It started with me admitting I was very nervous about meeting her mother (who we were supposed to be having dinner with tonight).
I said "You know X, I really enjoy being with you and I care a lot for you. I don't ever want to see you hurt so I think it's important I let you know how I'm feeling. You know I'm going through a lot of crap, and I guess it kind of makes me feel quite emotionally numb. I really meant the things I have said in the past few weeks but at the moment, I'm really unable to commit emotionally enough to this relationship right now to know whether it will be long term or not. I think meeting your mum might be a bit too much right now. I just want to make sure we are on the same page so we both have the same expectations. I really like being around you and I'd love to continue this and see if it goes anywhere. How do you feel about it?" 

She basically said she thought that taking it really easy was a good idea, and thought it was best for her as well considering my divorce still isn't complete and I'm still selling my house etc. 

What she didn't say was whether she harboured deeper feelings than I, but I would suggest I already know the answer to that.

In any case, the open discussion was a good thing.


----------



## lordmayhem

Despite the fact that your thread lately has not been about the infidelity lately, and mostly talking about your new woman, I think it's a GREAT SIGN that you're starting to heal emotionally.

I'm sure you still have some bad days once in a while, but now your mind is focused on this new relationship. The majority of threads like yours seem to be never ending soap operas, where the BS is STILL continually talking about what the Ex or STBX is doing, etc, etc. They are still having a difficult time detaching, which is understandable. 

It's good to see that you're on the path toward moving on.


----------



## tom67

lordmayhem said:


> Despite the fact that your thread lately has not been about the infidelity lately, and mostly talking about your new woman, I think it's a GREAT SIGN that you're starting to heal emotionally.
> 
> I'm sure you still have some bad days once in a while, but now your mind is focused on this new relationship. The majority of threads like yours seem to be never ending soap operas, where the BS is STILL continually talking about what the Ex or STBX is doing, etc, etc. They are still having a difficult time detaching, which is understandable.
> 
> It's good to see that you're on the path toward moving on.


well...
:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## poida

lordmayhem said:


> Despite the fact that your thread lately has not been about the infidelity lately, and mostly talking about your new woman, I think it's a GREAT SIGN that you're starting to heal emotionally.
> 
> I'm sure you still have some bad days once in a while, but now your mind is focused on this new relationship. The majority of threads like yours seem to be never ending soap operas, where the BS is STILL continually talking about what the Ex or STBX is doing, etc, etc. They are still having a difficult time detaching, which is understandable.
> 
> It's good to see that you're on the path toward moving on.


I now need to focus on more ME time. Time to be happy by myself, to learn about myself, to put aside my worries about other people, to reset my goals and ambitions in life.

My GF is away until Monday and I see that as a good thing right now.

I feel this thread beginning to draw a close.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Poida, i think that is a great idea, this chapter of your life is coming to a close, start a new thread about you...about healing...about discovering what you want out of life....and about finding love again. Good Luck


----------



## poida

Hi Guys, 
A very very difficult weekend. 
House up for sale, family and GF away, friends unavailable.
The worst thing was browsing FB and seeing a huge party that my WW organised and invited ALL of my friends. 
Video posted on FB showing my WW dancing around all happy and pashing her new BF. I mean what sort of friend of mine posts that. Seeing this was like a punch to the throat and really hurt. I cried a lot this weekend.
My work has also become very stressful. The owner of the company is being very difficult, irrational and has basically threatened me with my job (has done the same to everybody BTW so it's not just me). What a d*ck.
.
I have decided that it is time to make a real step forward in my life and do ONLY positive things. This will be my last post relating to infidelity and my WW.
.
Things I have done today to begin the process;
1. Went to the gym.
2. Closed my FB account
3. Booked another week of annual leave in the first week of August (no plans yet, but I will be doing something for/by myself).
4. Finish this thread. Close this chapter of my life.
5. Deleted friends phone numbers who have never really been a good friend and are basically selfish. Deleted FB posting friend.

POSITIVE things to do in the next fortnight;
- Find a new job
- Find a new home
- Move house
- Complete my full motorcycle license
- Buy a new motorcycle (Ducati 1098 Streetfighter!! yeah baby!)
- Volunteer in the local soup kitchen
- Got to a track day and race a Formula Ford (Birthday present)
- Go on a surfing road trip by myself or with a mate (no women).
- Join the local surf club and start a new circle of friends.
- Change yacht clubs and find a new circle of friends there.
- Commit to at least three gym or exercise sessions per week.
- Spend time with family
- Stop thinking so much
- Learn to meditate
- Spend some time with GF and just ENJOY her company rather than over thinking about the future.

The time for reflecting on the past and worrying about my situation is now done. I am finished with it. I am healthy enough to move forward now. I have the tools now.

Thank you all so much for your support. I now pronounce this thread FINISHED. I will see you all in other posts!!!

Poida


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> Hi Guys,
> A very very difficult weekend.
> House up for sale, family and GF away, friends unavailable.
> The worst thing was browsing FB and seeing a huge party that my WW organised and invited ALL of my friends.
> Video posted on FB showing my WW dancing around all happy and pashing her new BF. I mean what sort of friend of mine posts that. Seeing this was like a punch to the throat and really hurt. I cried a lot this weekend.
> My work has also become very stressful. The owner of the company is being very difficult, irrational and has basically threatened me with my job (has done the same to everybody BTW so it's not just me). What a d*ck.
> .
> I have decided that it is time to make a real step forward in my life and do ONLY positive things. This will be my last post relating to infidelity and my WW.
> .
> Things I have done today to begin the process;
> 1. Went to the gym.
> 2. Closed my FB account
> 3. Booked another week of annual leave in the first week of August (no plans yet, but I will be doing something for/by myself).
> 4. Finish this thread. Close this chapter of my life.
> 5. Deleted friends phone numbers who have never really been a good friend and are basically selfish. Deleted FB posting friend.
> 
> POSITIVE things to do in the next fortnight;
> - Find a new job
> - Find a new home
> - Move house
> - Complete my full motorcycle license
> - Buy a new motorcycle (Ducati 1098 Streetfighter!! yeah baby!)
> - Volunteer in the local soup kitchen
> - Got to a track day and race a Formula Ford (Birthday present)
> - Go on a surfing road trip by myself or with a mate (no women).
> - Join the local surf club and start a new circle of friends.
> - Change yacht clubs and find a new circle of friends there.
> - Commit to at least three gym or exercise sessions per week.
> - Spend time with family
> - Stop thinking so much
> - Learn to meditate
> - Spend some time with GF and just ENJOY her company rather than over thinking about the future.
> 
> The time for reflecting on the past and worrying about my situation is now done. I am finished with it. I am healthy enough to move forward now. I have the tools now.
> 
> Thank you all so much for your support. I now pronounce this thread FINISHED. I will see you all in other posts!!!
> 
> Poida


Good luck Poida. Time to let go of the past and live for yourself.


----------



## lordmayhem

Yeah, whoever posted that video is no friend of yours. Facebook is not good for you right now. The thing is, your facebook account is never closed, no matter what you do. Its reactivated the moment you log back in. Seeing your WW happy with the OM is the worst feeling, sorry you had to see that. I would have not deleted her, but blocked her. Deleting a friend on facebook doesn't really do anything but delete them from your friends list. You are able to see posts about them on other friends pages. What you do is *block them*, its like they don't exist in your universe.

Good luck in starting your new life, and don't be a stranger. There are always new BSs coming to the forum and needing help. They could benefit from your advice and experience in coping with infidelity.


----------



## Marduk

As hard as it is, try to draw strength from what you saw Poida.

I know it hit me like a ton of freaking bricks when I found out my ex was happily dating this other guy when we were separated. And again when I found out it was even before we were separated.

I hit bottom knowing she was happy and I was in a pit of eternal blackness with no escape. Then the anger hit.

It was like a ray of light. It grew and grew. I ejected the friend that was rubbing my face in the fact that she was with this other guy and happy. It was hard; he was my oldest friend in the world and I thought he had my back.

He didn't. I realized this in my rage. Just like I realized my ex was a lying, cheating, witch of a woman.

And in my rage I realized I was _free_.

My new life began that day.


----------



## happyman64

> My new life began that day.


Amen!


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> Hi Guys,
> A very very difficult weekend.
> House up for sale, family and GF away, friends unavailable.
> The worst thing was browsing FB and seeing a huge party that my WW organised and invited ALL of my friends.
> Video posted on FB showing my WW dancing around all happy and pashing her new BF. I mean what sort of friend of mine posts that. Seeing this was like a punch to the throat and really hurt. I cried a lot this weekend.
> My work has also become very stressful. The owner of the company is being very difficult, irrational and has basically threatened me with my job (has done the same to everybody BTW so it's not just me). What a d*ck.
> .
> I have decided that it is time to make a real step forward in my life and do ONLY positive things. This will be my last post relating to infidelity and my WW.
> .
> Things I have done today to begin the process;
> 1. Went to the gym.
> 2. Closed my FB account
> 3. Booked another week of annual leave in the first week of August (no plans yet, but I will be doing something for/by myself).
> 4. Finish this thread. Close this chapter of my life.
> 5. Deleted friends phone numbers who have never really been a good friend and are basically selfish. Deleted FB posting friend.
> 
> POSITIVE things to do in the next fortnight;
> - Find a new job
> - Find a new home
> - Move house
> - Complete my full motorcycle license
> - Buy a new motorcycle (Ducati 1098 Streetfighter!! yeah baby!)
> - Volunteer in the local soup kitchen
> - Got to a track day and race a Formula Ford (Birthday present)
> - Go on a surfing road trip by myself or with a mate (no women).
> - Join the local surf club and start a new circle of friends.
> - Change yacht clubs and find a new circle of friends there.
> - Commit to at least three gym or exercise sessions per week.
> - Spend time with family
> - Stop thinking so much
> - Learn to meditate
> - Spend some time with GF and just ENJOY her company rather than over thinking about the future.
> 
> The time for reflecting on the past and worrying about my situation is now done. I am finished with it. I am healthy enough to move forward now. I have the tools now.
> 
> Thank you all so much for your support. I now pronounce this thread FINISHED. I will see you all in other posts!!!
> 
> Poida


Great that youre moving forward, but I want to comment on something.

I strongly disagree with completing your motorycle license and then getting a Ducati 1098. That is a LOT of motorcycle for a master rider, let alone one who is not. It is so easy to say you can control your right wrist, and so easy to screw it on..

Little story for you bro. I had (and still have) a 2005 Suzuki Bandit 1200S with a number of performance mods- GSXR1100 intake cam, 5 degree timing advance, full holeshot header/exhaust, 2 2" holes in airbox, rejetted carbs- a fast motorcycle for sure. At the time of this story, I was about 24 and had been riding about 6 years. I bought the bike and did the mods thinking "I can control myself", and for the most part except a few drag races and quick throttle pops, I did. 

Im on a freeway about 30 minutes east of San Diego about 3000 feet in the mountains. There is NOONE anywhere in sight. I screwed it on all the way and held it open. Into third. Into fourth. Into fifth. I was on a long bridge as I came up towards the top of 5th gear- I was doing according to my speedo 166mph and climbing.

As I came to the end of the bridge, I hit a metal bridge joint. The back end of that motorcycle went out to the right about 6 inches (I could feel it); the only reason I am here- the only reason im alive- is the roughly 1/8th of an inch of rubber on the front tire that didnt let go. It was a stupid f***ing thing for me to do- I know. But..

The Ducati 1098 is faster and more powerful than my hopped up Bandit. I strongly recommend something else. It also doesnt help youre coming out in a new phase of life- all it takes is seeking the thrill once, and your life is over.

Just my $0.02


----------



## Turin74

Well, who needs enemys with friends (and spouses) like this?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Turin74 said:


> Well, who needs enemys with friends (and spouses) like this?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Ill assume you were referring to me  / 

I didnt say it was smart- just trying to offer a word of caution.

Power corrupts. It takes a great deal of vigilence to avoid being corrupted by such power. Noone in sight for 20+ miles of visibility + powerful bike + middle of nowhere = power. I failed... it corrupted me in that moment. And I got lucky. 

I will admit I feel offended by the implication, but I suppose I deserve it. I have noone to blame but myself.

Poida, it doesnt change what Ive said- it takes only a FRACTION of what I did to end up dead on one of those high powered bikes. Just be careful and think it through...

FWIW, I enjoy my DR650 way more than I do the Bandit, and it doesnt even make 40hp!


----------



## Turin74

.. No, unless you are that friend of Op (poida) who attended the party and posted the video  
For me a friend is the person who has your back when times are tough and you are no fun, not who jumps to whoever throws a bigger party (probably that's why I don't have many) 

Besides I have nothing against motorcycles, though I have better ways to risk my life  



OptimisticPessimist said:


> Ill assume you were referring to me


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Turin74 said:


> .. No, unless you are that friend of Op (poida) who attended the party and posted the video
> For me a friend is the person who has your back when times are tough and you are no fun, not who jumps to whoever throws a bigger party (probably that's why I don't have many)
> 
> Besides I have nothing against motorcycles, though I have better ways to risk my life
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Apologies. Since you hadnt referred to that and your post was after mine, I assumed. It wouldnt be the first time that caution story has had people insult me (for good reason)  Im overly defensive with it now I suppose 

I didnt think you had anything against motorcycles- just motorcyclists who drive them like an idiot (like I did). 

I agree in regards to that friend and Poida's ex. Then again.. amazingly I think there are stories on this forum that are just as horrific!


----------



## m0nk

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Great that youre moving forward, but I want to comment on something.
> 
> I strongly disagree with completing your motorycle license and then getting a Ducati 1098. That is a LOT of motorcycle for a master rider, let alone one who is not. It is so easy to say you can control your right wrist, and so easy to screw it on..
> 
> Little story for you bro. I had (and still have) a 2005 Suzuki Bandit 1200S with a number of performance mods- GSXR1100 intake cam, 5 degree timing advance, full holeshot header/exhaust, 2 2" holes in airbox, rejetted carbs- a fast motorcycle for sure. At the time of this story, I was about 24 and had been riding about 6 years. I bought the bike and did the mods thinking "I can control myself", and for the most part except a few drag races and quick throttle pops, I did.
> 
> Im on a freeway about 30 minutes east of San Diego about 3000 feet in the mountains. There is NOONE anywhere in sight. I screwed it on all the way and held it open. Into third. Into fourth. Into fifth. I was on a long bridge as I came up towards the top of 5th gear- I was doing according to my speedo 166mph and climbing.
> 
> As I came to the end of the bridge, I hit a metal bridge joint. The back end of that motorcycle went out to the right about 6 inches (I could feel it); the only reason I am here- the only reason im alive- is the roughly 1/8th of an inch of rubber on the front tire that didnt let go. It was a stupid f***ing thing for me to do- I know. But..
> 
> The Ducati 1098 is faster and more powerful than my hopped up Bandit. I strongly recommend something else. It also doesnt help youre coming out in a new phase of life- all it takes is seeking the thrill once, and your life is over.
> 
> Just my $0.02


+1...I think getting a moto is a great idea, but I've gotta agree with OpPes here...that's a helluva lot of bike to begin with. Why not try a 250 or something and get comfortable? My ExH went off and got a big bike once we were divorced. He didn't tell me (not that he was obligated) and got in an accident. We have 2 boys. He too was lucky. We just don't want to hear about a Poida-shaped smear on the road, dude. You don't want to be relying on Luck, but rather your skillz to save you. I'd heed the solid advice you're getting and I'm glad you are moving on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Turin74

Just to lighten the mood (especially if poida is watching):
Small town, one motorcycle dealership. Call from the local police station at the end of day. 
- did you sell 4 bikes today? 
- yes, why? 
- well, we have one new owner in the morgue, 2 in the hospital, we are very worried about the 4th one

Sorry for TJ and no bikers were harmed in the making of this story.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Great that youre moving forward, but I want to comment on something.
> 
> I strongly disagree with completing your motorycle license and then getting a Ducati 1098. That is a LOT of motorcycle for a master rider, let alone one who is not. It is so easy to say you can control your right wrist, and so easy to screw it on..
> 
> Little story for you bro. I had (and still have) a 2005 Suzuki Bandit 1200S with a number of performance mods- GSXR1100 intake cam, 5 degree timing advance, full holeshot header/exhaust, 2 2" holes in airbox, rejetted carbs- a fast motorcycle for sure. At the time of this story, I was about 24 and had been riding about 6 years. I bought the bike and did the mods thinking "I can control myself", and for the most part except a few drag races and quick throttle pops, I did.
> 
> Im on a freeway about 30 minutes east of San Diego about 3000 feet in the mountains. There is NOONE anywhere in sight. I screwed it on all the way and held it open. Into third. Into fourth. Into fifth. I was on a long bridge as I came up towards the top of 5th gear- I was doing according to my speedo 166mph and climbing.
> 
> As I came to the end of the bridge, I hit a metal bridge joint. The back end of that motorcycle went out to the right about 6 inches (I could feel it); the only reason I am here- the only reason im alive- is the roughly 1/8th of an inch of rubber on the front tire that didnt let go. It was a stupid f***ing thing for me to do- I know. But..
> 
> The Ducati 1098 is faster and more powerful than my hopped up Bandit. I strongly recommend something else. It also doesnt help youre coming out in a new phase of life- all it takes is seeking the thrill once, and your life is over.
> 
> Just my $0.02


We have a 650cc limit here for 1 year probationary period before full license so I've been riding a de-restricted Yamaha 600cc with chip, cams, exhaust and intake for a year. I makes around 90HP.

I hear you. It's a lot of bike. I'm a pretty sensible rider tho. I really only ride around town, commuting. Tiny bit of weekend work but very rare. No track work. It's more about the torque in town and a fat sounding sex looking bike than anything. 

The Streetfighter is aero limited to around 150MPH, but yeah, plenty enough to maim. Honestly I'm not much of a hooligan though.

I am thinking the new 848 Streetfighter might be the better choice anyway being newer, with 130HP, a bit less torque and a wet clutch.

Bikes left on the list to try include;
Ducati 848 Streetfighter
Honda CB1000R
Kawasaki Z1000
Aprilia Tuono V4R (now THIS bike would be a handful)
MV Agusta 1090 Brutale

The Honda would be the smart buy probably for a litre bike novice.


----------



## poida

m0nk said:


> +1...I think getting a moto is a great idea, but I've gotta agree with OpPes here...that's a helluva lot of bike to begin with. Why not try a 250 or something and get comfortable? My ExH went off and got a big bike once we were divorced. He didn't tell me (not that he was obligated) and got in an accident. We have 2 boys. He too was lucky. We just don't want to hear about a Poida-shaped smear on the road, dude. You don't want to be relying on Luck, but rather your skillz to save you. I'd heed the solid advice you're getting and I'm glad you are moving on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ive had a FZR250 for a year, a Yamaha 600cc (90HP) for a yea and I'm ready to step up. Appreciate the concern but I'm a very careful rider who knows the limits of a bike and more importantly the limits of other idiots on the road.


----------



## nickgtg

I had a bada$$ Schwinn growing up.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> We have a 650cc limit here for 1 year probationary period before full license so I've been riding a de-restricted Yamaha 600cc with chip, cams, exhaust and intake for a year. I makes around 90HP.
> 
> I hear you. It's a lot of bike. I'm a pretty sensible rider tho. I really only ride around town, commuting. Tiny bit of weekend work but very rare. No track work. It's more about the torque in town and a fat sounding sex looking bike than anything.
> 
> The Streetfighter is aero limited to around 150MPH, but yeah, plenty enough to maim. Honestly I'm not much of a hooligan though.
> 
> I am thinking the new 848 Streetfighter might be the better choice anyway being newer, with 130HP, a bit less torque and a wet clutch.
> 
> Bikes left on the list to try include;
> Ducati 848 Streetfighter
> Honda CB1000R
> Kawasaki Z1000
> Aprilia Tuono V4R (now THIS bike would be a handful)
> MV Agusta 1090 Brutale
> 
> The Honda would be the smart buy probably for a litre bike novice.


You know the limits of a bike? Thats an attitude that almost killed me on the Bandit... and kills many riders year after year.

Im only mildly lecturing though  You definitely have taken a better arc through motorcycles then I did. I started with a Harley XLH 1000 shovelhead, then went straight to the Bandit. My riding skills improved dramatically upon getting the 35hp DR650 

All of those bikes listed would be a blast. I would die for sure with the CBR, Brutale or Tuono


----------



## BashfulB

poida said:


> We have a 650cc limit here for 1 year probationary period before full license so I've been riding a de-restricted Yamaha 600cc with chip, cams, exhaust and intake for a year. I makes around 90HP.
> 
> I hear you. It's a lot of bike. I'm a pretty sensible rider tho. I really only ride around town, commuting. Tiny bit of weekend work but very rare. No track work. It's more about the torque in town and a fat sounding sex looking bike than anything.
> 
> The Streetfighter is aero limited to around 150MPH, but yeah, plenty enough to maim. Honestly I'm not much of a hooligan though.
> 
> I am thinking the new 848 Streetfighter might be the better choice anyway being newer, with 130HP, a bit less torque and a wet clutch.
> 
> Bikes left on the list to try include;
> Ducati 848 Streetfighter
> Honda CB1000R
> Kawasaki Z1000
> Aprilia Tuono V4R (now THIS bike would be a handful)
> MV Agusta 1090 Brutale
> 
> The Honda would be the smart buy probably for a litre bike novice.


What about the Triumph Speed Triple?


----------



## poida

BashfulBull said:


> What about the Triumph Speed Triple?


The Triumph is bit like an ugly girlfriend who is good in bed !!!!! Not much to look at but a whole lot of fun. :rofl:


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

BashfulBull said:


> What about the Triumph Speed Triple?


That was my dream bike for a time. Pretty much agree with Poida- ugly, but sounds great and its tons of fun..


----------



## bandit.45

I took a triple out for a test run once. Nearly tore my arms out of their sockets. Last time I was on that type of torque was when I rode my buddy's V-Max back in '88. I ripped up the asphalt at an intersection with that monster.


----------



## MattMatt

poida said:


> We have a 650cc limit here for 1 year probationary period before full license so I've been riding a de-restricted Yamaha 600cc with chip, cams, exhaust and intake for a year. I makes around 90HP.
> 
> I hear you. It's a lot of bike. I'm a pretty sensible rider tho. I really only ride around town, commuting. Tiny bit of weekend work but very rare. No track work. It's more about the torque in town and a fat sounding sex looking bike than anything.
> 
> The Streetfighter is aero limited to around 150MPH, but yeah, plenty enough to maim. Honestly I'm not much of a hooligan though.
> 
> I am thinking the new 848 Streetfighter might be the better choice anyway being newer, with 130HP, a bit less torque and a wet clutch.
> 
> Bikes left on the list to try include;
> Ducati 848 Streetfighter
> Honda CB1000R
> Kawasaki Z1000
> Aprilia Tuono V4R (now THIS bike would be a handful)
> MV Agusta 1090 Brutale
> 
> The Honda would be the smart buy probably for a litre bike novice.


I will not drive a car or ride a bike (my eyesight is not good enough, I feel) but if I did, this is what I'd get: Royal Enfield – Official Website


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

MattMatt said:


> I will not drive a car or ride a bike (my eyesight is not good enough, I feel) but if I did, this is what I'd get: Royal Enfield – Official Website


Just be sure to bring a toolkit. Theres a ride report on a forum called "ADVrider" named "India: Delhi through Kashmir on a Royal piece of..." Great ride report and the guy had a blast, but the bikes do have a reputation for breaking down 

Poida, any updates dude?


----------



## lordmayhem

poida said:


> We have a 650cc limit here for 1 year probationary period before full license so I've been riding a de-restricted Yamaha 600cc with chip, cams, exhaust and intake for a year. I makes around 90HP.
> 
> I hear you. It's a lot of bike. I'm a pretty sensible rider tho. I really only ride around town, commuting. Tiny bit of weekend work but very rare. No track work. It's more about the torque in town and a fat sounding sex looking bike than anything.
> 
> The Streetfighter is aero limited to around 150MPH, but yeah, plenty enough to maim. Honestly I'm not much of a hooligan though.
> 
> I am thinking the new 848 Streetfighter might be the better choice anyway being newer, with 130HP, a bit less torque and a wet clutch.
> 
> Bikes left on the list to try include;
> Ducati 848 Streetfighter
> Honda CB1000R
> Kawasaki Z1000
> Aprilia Tuono V4R (now THIS bike would be a handful)
> MV Agusta 1090 Brutale
> 
> The Honda would be the smart buy probably for a litre bike novice.


I was thinking of getting a Honda CTX700 next year as my reintroduction to riding, since I haven't ridden since my younger college days. It's been touted a lot that its a good newbie bike.


----------



## poida

Hi Guys and Gals,
A quick update and a question to pose to those who have been cheated on.
I've got a new house and I'm moving in at the end of the month. Looking forward to a fresh start. 
I bought a Honda CB1000R in the end and very happy with my purchase. The thing is a beast.
I'm still going out with the same girl, now 3 months. Sex is really great, we get on really well and we can TALK about everything which is so fantastic I can't tell you.

BUT.... and here is the million dollar question for you all......

I'm not feeling it lately. I love her but I'm not IN LOVE. I don't find her as physically attractive as I did my wife (and other slim women I suppose). But I am warming to her physical attributes and to be honest, starting to appreciate those curves.

Obviously I have a lot going on. The WW moved out on the weekend. I stayed at home last night in what was basically an empty house and I'm really not in a great place today.

What I would like to ask is whether any of you felt your feelings were hindered in a relationship after breakup or divorce? Did it prevent you from "feeling it", or was it simply that once you find the right gal, all your pain and suffering goes out the window and you are completely in love again.

I really like this girl and to be honest, I wish I was feeling it. I really think we could have a long future together and I even see her as a fantastic mother and wife.

But I'm struggling. I really think about this a lot. I really don't want to be another 3 months down the road and decide I don't love her. it would really hurt me and obviously hurt her. Her last long term relationship broke up similarly after 6 months so I guess I'm aware of it. Being in your mid 30's I think really changes things because there is a ticking clock as far as female fertility is concerned.

Wow. I think a lot.

Anyway... has anyone been through this before? Did you eventually fall in love with someone once all the sh*t associated with moving, divorce etc had passed? Was it a successful relationship long term?

Am I wasting both our time waiting to fall in love? Does it ever happen after time? HELP!!!


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Hi Guys and Gals,
> A quick update and a question to pose to those who have been cheated on.
> I've got a new house and I'm moving in at the end of the month. Looking forward to a fresh start.
> I bought a Honda CB1000R in the end and very happy with my purchase. The thing is a beast.
> I'm still going out with the same girl, now 3 months. Sex is really great, we get on really well and we can TALK about everything which is so fantastic I can't tell you.
> 
> BUT.... and here is the million dollar question for you all......
> 
> I'm not feeling it lately. I love her but I'm not IN LOVE. I don't find her as physically attractive as I did my wife (and other slim women I suppose). But I am warming to her physical attributes and to be honest, starting to appreciate those curves.
> 
> Obviously I have a lot going on. The WW moved out on the weekend. I stayed at home last night in what was basically an empty house and I'm really not in a great place today.
> 
> What I would like to ask is whether any of you felt your feelings were hindered in a relationship after breakup or divorce? Did it prevent you from "feeling it", or was it simply that once you find the right gal, all your pain and suffering goes out the window and you are completely in love again.
> 
> I really like this girl and to be honest, I wish I was feeling it. I really think we could have a long future together and I even see her as a fantastic mother and wife.
> 
> But I'm struggling. I really think about this a lot. I really don't want to be another 3 months down the road and decide I don't love her. it would really hurt me and obviously hurt her. Her last long term relationship broke up similarly after 6 months so I guess I'm aware of it. Being in your mid 30's I think really changes things because there is a ticking clock as far as female fertility is concerned.
> 
> Wow. I think a lot.
> 
> Anyway... has anyone been through this before? Did you eventually fall in love with someone once all the sh*t associated with moving, divorce etc had passed? Was it a successful relationship long term?
> 
> Am I wasting both our time waiting to fall in love? Does it ever happen after time? HELP!!!


Go with the flow and stop over thinking just my opinion.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

Go with the flow. You are still recovering from your marriage mess.

Just be honest with your girl.

And personally I say go with the curves. they are a lot more fun than a skinny girl IMO.

HM


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Go with the flow and stop over thinking just my opinion.


Well that's what I'm trying to do but it's difficult feeling unsure about anything when I have been in totally in love and secure (supposedly) for 14 years. 

I guess I just want to hear of what others have experienced.


----------



## ThePheonix

You've answered your own question my man. _"I'm still going out with the same girl, now 3 months. Sex is really great, we get on really well and we can TALK about everything which is so fantastic I can't tell you._ and _I really like this girl and to be honest, I wish I was feeling it. I really think we could have a long future together and I even see her as a fantastic mother and wife.
_
Ask yourself if that skinny chick you married was providing you with that. You sound like you just want one of them damsels in distress so much you're ignoring what's really making you happy. Could be to you're just obsessing on the one that rejected you and you just have to keep hammering trying to fix it and prove something. 
Listen to this song and pay attention to the words. It was primarily written by a bluegrass musician who was a friend of my uncle. It was based on a situation his best friend had that was similar to yours. 

Mickey Gilley I Overlooked an Orchid - YouTube


----------



## poida

ThePheonix said:


> You've answered your own question my man. _"I'm still going out with the same girl, now 3 months. Sex is really great, we get on really well and we can TALK about everything which is so fantastic I can't tell you._ and _I really like this girl and to be honest, I wish I was feeling it. I really think we could have a long future together and I even see her as a fantastic mother and wife.
> _
> Ask yourself if that skinny chick you married was providing you with that. You sound like you just want one of them damsels in distress so much you're ignoring what's really making you happy. Could be to you're just obsessing on the one that rejected you and you just have to keep hammering trying to fix it and prove something.
> Listen to this song and pay attention to the words. It was primarily written by a bluegrass musician who was a friend of my uncle. It was based on a situation his best friend had that was similar to yours.
> 
> Mickey Gilley I Overlooked an Orchid - YouTube


Ok, ta.

Not thinking about my wife anymore. I'm just not feeling IT and when I look at her face, I don't think she's the most beautiful girl in the world. 

THAT is what I think about.


----------



## poida

OH and I forgot to say that I have been completely transparent about all this (except comments about her body and face obviously - eek!).
Something I'm proud of.


----------



## ThePheonix

I don't know what else to tell you poida. Sounds like your looking for a girl you think is beautiful despite her other attributes. My recommendation however will always be that how she treats you and feels about you is most important and its the only thing that matters. How you feel about them, (sexy, beautiful, the love of your life) is not what keeps them. 
Plus reading between the lines it sounds like you still have it for your wife.


----------



## poida

ThePheonix said:


> I don't know what else to tell you poida. Sounds like your looking for a girl you think is beautiful despite her other attributes. My recommendation however will always be that how she treats you and feels about you is most important and its the only thing that matters. How you feel about them, (sexy, beautiful, the love of your life) is not what keeps them.
> Plus reading between the lines it sounds like you still have it for your wife.


Don't have it for my wife, but I miss how I felt when I was married.

Perhaps I was delusional and won't ever find that again.


----------



## tom67

ThePheonix said:


> I don't know what else to tell you poida. Sounds like your looking for a girl you think is beautiful despite her other attributes. My recommendation however will always be that how she treats you and feels about you is most important and its the only thing that matters. How you feel about them, (sexy, beautiful, the love of your life) is not what keeps them.
> Plus reading between the lines it sounds like you still have it for your wife.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
Okay so she is not as pretty as your ex.
But unlike your ex you can trust her talk about anything sounds like she would be a life partner and keeper and yet you want to dump her.:slap::banghead:
Hey it's your call!!!


----------



## treyvion

poida said:


> Ok, ta.
> 
> Not thinking about my wife anymore. I'm just not feeling IT and when I look at her face, I don't think she's the most beautiful girl in the world.
> 
> THAT is what I think about.


Who the h3ll IS though? After what you went thru with your ex, nobody might not be the MOST beautiful in the world and it might not matter as much anyway.

Sounds like your with someone who really likes you and you like her and spending time with her, sex is great. I wouldn't worry about "in love". Enjoy your time, maybe one day it will be deeper feelings you never had before.


----------



## JerryB

poida said:


> Obviously I have a lot going on. The WW moved out on the weekend.* I stayed at home last night in what was basically an empty house and I'm really not in a great place today.
> *
> 
> I really like this girl and to be honest, I wish I was feeling it. I really think *we could have a long future together and I even see her as a fantastic mother and wife.*
> 
> But I'm struggling. I really think about this a lot.* I really don't want to be another 3 months down the road and decide I don't love her. it would really hurt me and obviously hurt her. Her last long term relationship broke up similarly after 6 months so I guess I'm aware of it. Being in your mid 30's I think really changes things because there is a ticking clock as far as female fertility is concerned.*
> 
> Wow. I think a lot.
> Anyway... has anyone been through this before? Did you eventually fall in love with someone once all the sh*t associated with moving, divorce etc had passed? *Was it a successful relationship long term?*


1) You're all alone for one night and feel distressed
2) You're already thinking of potential marriage & children with her after only 3 months
3) Worried about hurting her feelings in 3 months. Creepy reference to her fertility.
4) First relationship after divorce must be a LONG TERM relationship



> Am I wasting both our time waiting to fall in love? Does it ever happen after time? HELP!!!


5) Help! It's the end of the world.


This is what happens when you don't work on yourself before jumping into the next relationship. You're doomed to repeat it. You have classic NICE GUY tendencies, and rely on others' validation of you for your own happiness. You're finally out of one toxic relationship, and now rushing into your next one, as you are subconsciously comfortable with its drama & anxiety.


----------



## poida

JerryB said:


> 1) You're all alone for one night and feel distressed
> 2) You're already thinking of potential marriage & children with her after only 3 months
> 3) Worried about hurting her feelings in 3 months. Creepy reference to her fertility.
> 4) First relationship after divorce must be a LONG TERM relationship
> 
> 
> 
> 5) Help! It's the end of the world.
> 
> 
> This is what happens when you don't work on yourself before jumping into the next relationship. You're doomed to repeat it. You have classic NICE GUY tendencies, and rely on others' validation of you for your own happiness. You're finally out of one toxic relationship, and now rushing into your next one, as you are subconsciously comfortable with its drama & anxiety.


I hear you. 
Definitely some of that is true. I have grown a lot though and to be honest I don't see this relationship as hindering me. I would be the same whether I was single or dating.
I know I have more work to do and I had already booked my next round of counselling which starts tonight.
We are delving right into my childhood and where my need to please others came from.
I have come a LONG way though.
I am more inwardly focussed than ever before which is a good thing for me.
I do care about my GF and I wouldn't like to waste her time as I know she wants kids. That is my only outward consideration ATM but it is secondary to my own situation. There is nothing Beta about that.
I have a LOT more Alpha characteristics now and I am doing a pretty good job looking after my needs right now. I only do what I want to do.
So, it's not as dire as you might think, but yes, I still have work to do on myself.


----------



## tom67

One day at a time!!


----------



## poida

treyvion said:


> Who the h3ll IS though? After what you went thru with your ex, nobody might not be the MOST beautiful in the world and it might not matter as much anyway.
> 
> Sounds like your with someone who really likes you and you like her and spending time with her, sex is great. I wouldn't worry about "in love". Enjoy your time, maybe one day it will be deeper feelings you never had before.


Appreciate the comments. Thanks.


----------



## tom67

Oh I've been watching some of your Australian football otherwise known as Footy?


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> Okay so she is not as pretty as your ex.
> But unlike your ex you can trust her talk about anything sounds like she would be a life partner and keeper and yet you want to dump her.:slap::banghead:
> Hey it's your call!!!


Thank Tom. You know what.... sometimes we just need to hear the voice of sensibility.:smthumbup:


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Thank Tom. You know what.... sometimes we just need to hear the voice of sensibility.:smthumbup:


Hey you want to watch the last 9 minutes of american football here...
San Diego Chargers vs Arizona Cardinals Live Stream | September 08, 2014 | Online American Football


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Oh I've been watching some of your Australian football otherwise known as Footy?


Oh you poor ******. Why would you subject yourself to that???

Having said that, I must be the only bloody Aussie who doesn't watch it.

I love Formula 1. At the moment we have Daniel Ricciardo who is killing it (well behind the Merc's) who is our local boy and he only lives like 10 miles from my house. Go Dan!!!!!

Really looking forward to moving into my new place. I think it will be a big step forward for me emotionally.

Plus sailing starts again at the end of the month and my new house is LITERALLY 200m from my house. I can crawl home now. Yeeha!


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Hey you want to watch the last 9 minutes of american football here...
> San Diego Chargers vs Arizona Cardinals Live Stream | September 08, 2014 | Online American Football


Cool!

I actually have a red "GO CARDS" t-shirt at home from the Brewery in town so I had better go for them.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Oh you poor ******. Why would you subject yourself to that???
> 
> Having said that, I must be the only bloody Aussie who doesn't watch it.
> 
> I love Formula 1. At the moment we have Daniel Ricciardo who is killing it (well behind the Merc's) who is our local boy and he only lives like 10 miles from my house. Go Dan!!!!!
> 
> Really looking forward to moving into my new place. I think it will be a big step forward for me emotionally.
> 
> Plus sailing starts again at the end of the month and my new house is LITERALLY 200m from my house. I can crawl home now. Yeeha!


It's the only thing on at 2am
I don't make a bloody habit of it.


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Cool!
> 
> I actually have a red "GO CARDS" t-shirt at home from the Brewery in town so I had better go for them.


This game is back and forth.


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> This game is back and forth.


Ha ha. Even the players look bored.


----------



## poida

Wooooo!!! touchdown


----------



## tom67

poida said:


> Wooooo!!! touchdown


Yep that Floyd guy was a beast at Notre Dame.
Before the touchdown.
SD is p!ssing this one away.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

JerryB said:


> 1) You're all alone for one night and feel distressed
> 2) You're already thinking of potential marriage & children with her after only 3 months
> 3) Worried about hurting her feelings in 3 months. Creepy reference to her fertility.
> 4) First relationship after divorce must be a LONG TERM relationship
> 
> 
> 
> 5) Help! It's the end of the world.
> 
> 
> This is what happens when you don't work on yourself before jumping into the next relationship. You're doomed to repeat it. You have classic NICE GUY tendencies, and rely on others' validation of you for your own happiness. You're finally out of one toxic relationship, and now rushing into your next one, as you are subconsciously comfortable with its drama & anxiety.


I think aspects of what you mention here are true. I think its good you point out the possibility of repeating past mistakes. I think its accurate Poida has some Beta characteristics that will make him weak and possibly unable to maintain a woman's attraction. In fact, I would even go so far as to say I fear his current woman KNOWS he's a Beta male and is trying to "hook" him so she can have some kids- I dont know that, but I fear it. **EDIT** To clarify, not that she is trying to trick or slyly trap- more like willingly convince, and more where she is settling. Its impossible for me to say without seeing, but unless Poida went from being a whipped puppy to a Rottweiler swinging his d*** around like he owns the place, I see it as likely. No offense bud- you were pretty bad...

On the other hand, I do think Poida sees the value in considering Alpha vs. Beta now. I also think he has made progress towards "taking charge" of his life and having standards that yield him respect. 



poida said:


> I hear you.
> Definitely some of that is true. I have grown a lot though and to be honest I don't see this relationship as hindering me. I would be the same whether I was single or dating.
> I know I have more work to do and I had already booked my next round of counselling which starts tonight.
> We are delving right into my childhood and where my need to please others came from.
> I have come a LONG way though.
> I am more inwardly focussed than ever before which is a good thing for me.
> I do care about my GF and I wouldn't like to waste her time as I know she wants kids. That is my only outward consideration ATM but it is secondary to my own situation. There is nothing Beta about that.
> I have a LOT more Alpha characteristics now and I am doing a pretty good job looking after my needs right now. I only do what I want to do.
> So, it's not as dire as you might think, but yes, I still have work to do on myself.


I understand your hesitation. Im going to go against common advice and suggest you move on for a couple reasons.

1) You can have all the logical reasons in the world why you should want a person, but "want" isnt logical- "want" is an emotion. IMO its not even about body type- its about physical hormonal chemistry. I can remember a girl I didnt find attractive at all- not much body, plain face. And then we shared a class together. A few months later we had chemistry flying in spades and I couldnt take my eyes off of her- she became beautiful. And I mean it- I was sexually attracted, I enjoyed hanging out with her, etc. We ended up dating and it worked well (until long distance happened). If you arent attracted to her with that "fire" that you feel for some women, you arent going to be; you cant logic that into existence- you have to feel it.

2) There is also the concept of not destroying someone else's dreams to fulfill your own; I would straight tell her you dont think it can become that kind of relationship. Her biological clock IS ticking and she needs to know you just dont see it possible for you to move into that role with her; I considerate it good character you are concerned about that.

She sounds like a nice woman, and it sucks she might be hurt by your inability to feel for her. At the same time, at least you give her the chance to move on and find someone that does. You cannot punish yourself for not being able to feel; feelings are responses to our environment that we can't control- we _can_ control what we do in response _to_ our feelings, and to the environment that sponsors those feelings.


tom67 said:


> One day at a time!!


:iagree:

A radical change in persona is not accomplished overnight (at least unless one goes insane). Calamity hit Poida's life, and now he has realized changes need to be made for that calamity to be avoided in the future. He has to learn and feel and retrospectively think as these things happen in order to move forward.


----------



## poida

I had that discussion with her on Sunday. She knows where she stands and I know where I stand. We have decided to continue for now.

The main reason I query my situation is that there IS intense physical chemistry. Even the smell of her drives me wild. I no longer see her freckles, I no longer see her cellulite, or her tummy. I see all positive things.

And I mean we jump each other like 3-4 times a day, and its only getting more frequent to be honest.

The chemistry is definitely stronger than I had with my wife.

BUT I don't see her as having transformed in her face much yet and this is where I'm confused.

To be feeling these things and not "falling in love" with her is new to me and quite unusual physiologically. And this is why I am asking what others have experienced after D. 

I have a feeling there are other emotions from my D preventing me from falling completely at the moment. Self preservation. I accept that this is most likely the situation. So what to do?

One day at a time is definitely one way to assess progress and is always sound advice.

Breaking up is another way. However I see it as more of a trigger or test than a necessity. Do I think I'll regret it? Not sure, possibly. if I do regret it, is it because I "need" a woman to approve of me? No, I don't think so. Simply recognising my previous need for approval keeps me very aware of that and I no longer have that yearning.

Can I live by myself? Sure. Would I enjoy it? Not really, I'm quite a social bloke. I would probably get a flat mate. Is that keeping me from breaking up? Not specifically, but I do enjoy her company.

So, with only MY needs in mind, the question is; is this relationship hindering my progress?

I say NO.

Why?
1. I am far more Alpha in my interaction with this woman than I have ever been. I have stopped asking what SHE wants to do. I just make plans.
2. I no longer clean, wash and cook to impress her. I do it when I think it's my turn, or when it really needs doing.
3. I take the lead in sex. I tell her what and when how. I tend to take a more dominating approach now.
4. For the first time in my life I feel like I WANT to be the leader of a family. The provider, the husband, the man of the house. This is the first time I have really had those feelings.
5. I have had enough of my work and I'm seeking a new career.
6. I do not pander to my GF's emotions or complaints. I am now very aware of the need to be calm, steadfast and strong.

Is this relationship something I NEED?
No. I don't need it. I can live without it and I will be fine. Will I be sad about losing her love and company? Sure. 
Is that unhealthy? No.

So, you can see I have made a lot of progress, and all whilst being with this woman.

I can see how my first message today screams of desperation. Fact is, I was in a bad place. But F*CK IT... it's a ****ty time. A terrible time in my life to be honest. To not be stressed, upset, confused and conflicted would be really unusual and frankly heartless.

So....... I've decided. F you all. I don't give a **** what you think right now......I'm going home to F my GF.

:lol:


----------



## poida

Oh and to clarify. I kicked the WW out of the house 6 months ago. This weekend just gone we finally divided up the furniture and she too her share. Sorry if that was confusing.


----------



## ThePheonix

poida said:


> The main reason I query my situation is that there IS intense physical chemistry. Even the smell of her drives me wild. I no longer see her freckles, I no longer see her cellulite, or her tummy. I see all positive things.
> 
> The chemistry is definitely stronger than I had with my wife.
> 
> BUT I don't see her as having transformed in her face much yet and this is where I'm confused.


Poida the more I read the more it sounds like you want an arm piece to impress others and letting that get in way of what you're really attracted to. 
Notwithstanding the relatively short time ya'll been dating, what's "unhealthy" is that you're unwilling and perhaps unable to blend her other attributes into a satisfying and complete relationship because you place such a premium on a pretty face. The way you describe her she sure sounds beautiful to me.


----------



## cool12

i've said my piece on this before but here i go again. 
life is fckin short man and you gotta enjoy every second you can. if the chubby girl with the average face is the one you really like being with, be with her. looks are temporary. what good is a pretty face if the person it is on is a completely b*tch?
it's time to get past the idea that looks are so important. for the most part it's just chance that someone's face is more attractive than others. one doesn't earn that. it doesn't make one more valuable in society. it's superficial, temporary and totally unrelated to one's worth. 
enjoy your gf for who she is and how well you get along. that's what really counts.


----------



## JerryB

poida said:


> So....... I've decided. F you all. I don't give a **** what you think right now......I'm going home to F my GF.


Now you're talking. Awesome.
F you too man!


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Ok, ta.
> 
> Not thinking about my wife anymore. I'm just not feeling IT and when I look at her face, I don't think she's the most beautiful girl in the world.
> 
> THAT is what I think about.


To me, that's called growing up. When you stop believing you have to find your soul mate, when you stop thinking if you don't have the hottest chick in the room you're a failure, when you start looking for what will fill your days with JOY and happiness, not for what fills your childhood daydreams of what you'll end up with. (that's not a criticism of you, just human nature)

My brother kept dating the same skinny blonde, over and over again, even though they had different names (and different problems). He found hot girls, and it fed his low self esteem, but one by one, they crushed him. Then he finally gave up seeking the hot girl, realized it was a pipe dream to only date beautiful women. He eventually (in his mid 30s) found an ok-looking (not beautiful at all) woman who was a great person, made him laugh, and filled in all the missing parts of his life.

Oh, and that "in love" feeling? You know better. That's the PEA chemicals talking and guess what? They only last 4 or 5 years and then they fade away from your body. So what's more important is the real love that should be there, under the surface.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

tom67 said:


> Oh I've been watching some of your Australian football otherwise known as Footy?


You poor thing.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> To me, that's called growing up. When you stop believing you have to find your soul mate, when you stop thinking if you don't have the hottest chick in the room you're a failure, when you start looking for what will fill your days with JOY and happiness, not for what fills your childhood daydreams of what you'll end up with. (that's not a criticism of you, just human nature)
> 
> My brother kept dating the same skinny blonde, over and over again, even though they had different names (and different problems). He found hot girls, and it fed his low self esteem, but one by one, they crushed him. Then he finally gave up seeking the hot girl, realized it was a pipe dream to only date beautiful women. He eventually (in his mid 30s) found an ok-looking (not beautiful at all) woman who was a great person, made him laugh, and filled in all the missing parts of his life.
> 
> Oh, and that "in love" feeling? You know better. That's the PEA chemicals talking and guess what? They only last 4 or 5 years and then they fade away from your body. So what's more important is the real love that should be there, under the surface.


Last night I went to personal counselling. My counsellor had been on a 7 week holiday so we hadn't talked since then. Where we finished off was dealing with my sexual anxiety (now almost completely gone) the feelings I still had for my wife (now completely gone) and my new GF and the feelings I had for her. Before he left he said that there is definitely more work that needs doing relating to my mother and that it tied everything together. he said it would be hard, but if I was willing to work at it, it would be rewarding.

So, last night we started to dig up the past. Long story cut short;

- The desperate need for "being in love" is actually a desperate need to feel safe, to push back the anxiety of being abandoned.
- The safe "in love" feeling is entirely self created. It is like a drug and it is blind to everything else.
- The abandonment issues were created by a number of things but in essence I was emotionally dependent on my mother and when she left my dad, she "abandoned me".
- Since then I have never forgiven her and have not formed an adult relationship with my mother.
- And so my first wife essentially became my mother replacement and I created a safe and secure fantasy.

The feeling I have recently been yearning for can be closely described with an analogy of THE MATRIX.

I was aware of what the difference between what was real and what was a fantasy, but like the character "Cypher", I just wanted to feel blissfully unaware, safe, happy. I wanted to be plugged back into the matrix.

And so last night, I found out that the "in love" that I desired wasn't actually a love for another person. It was the desperate need for someone to mother me and make me feel safe and happy.

It was like a blow to the side of the head with a hammer. I realised that what I wanted was a fantasy and not reality at all. That because I wasn't feeling this with my current GF, the obvious answer was to find someone more attractive. Clearly, this was never going to work.

My need for approval from women was also formed as a mechanism to try to obtain that unhealthy love fantasy.

So Turnera. Your comment is spot on. Adult relationships do have love, but they are certainly a much healthier form of emotion than that which I sought.

And so, I am now willingly unplugged from the Matrix and ready to experience a real adult relationship. 

Pathetic it took me this long and counselling to realise this, but I seem to be getting somewhere now.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

> 1. I am far more Alpha in my interaction with this woman than I have ever been. I have stopped asking what SHE wants to do. I just make plans.
> 2. I no longer clean, wash and cook to impress her. I do it when I think it's my turn, or when it really needs doing.
> 3. I take the lead in sex. I tell her what and when how. I tend to take a more dominating approach now.
> 4. For the first time in my life I feel like I WANT to be the leader of a family. The provider, the husband, the man of the house. This is the first time I have really had those feelings.
> 5. I have had enough of my work and I'm seeking a new career.
> 6. I do not pander to my GF's emotions or complaints. I am now very aware of the need to be calm, steadfast and strong.


Sounds good to me Poida. Looks like you've really come a long way! :smthumbup:


As you get to know each other more through honesty and communication of both your needs, learning each other's love languages and creating beautiful memories together, that dynamic and powerful "in love" feeling will eventually become real and true.

You're getting there Poida! :smthumbup:


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> So Turnera. Your comment is spot on. Adult relationships do have love, but they are certainly a much healthier form of emotion than that which I sought.


Dang! I missed my chance! I nearly always include some sort of comment about what you think you know is actually dictated by your FOO issues, lol. 

Anyway, good job! I like your therapist. And you're not pathetic. Your IC went to school for a good 10 years to get that much knowledge; how could you have known that stuff?


----------



## davecarter

Uncanny.
poida = Aussie version of me.


----------



## poida

Aghhh fark!!!!
I'm still having anxiety attacks when I leave my GF's house each day. 
I still find myself questioning how attracted I am to my GF body. This is really starting to **** me.
I'm thinking "is this a body I can really be in love with?"
I don't know where to go with this.
I know it's not healthy thinking but it's what I'm thinking none the less.
I really enjoy being with her and I think she is an amazing person who is kind, giving caring, sensitive and very in touch sexually. We have great chemistry, enjoy each other's company and have similar values and goals in life. To be honest I couldn't ask for more in those respects.
This is so unfair on both of us.
She has been great though and very supportive.
Maybe I need a break.
I wish this wasn't so hard.


----------



## turnera

You do need a break. Your id/ego is messing with your brain. Because you aren't ready to date yet.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> You do need a break. Your id/ego is messing with your brain. Because you aren't ready to date yet.


Yes, well I thought you might chime in as you said that, what, 100 posts ago! He he.

We did speak about this last night actually.

I actually came to the conclusion that having this relationship has actually brought these issues to the fore and it is actually challenging me. In that way, I think it is a good thing. 

I honestly think that if I was single and alone, I would have made NO progress in relation to re-learning what healthy feelings and a relationship are. And what is unhealthy.

The problem is now that I have moments when I question....well... everything..... I get anxious.

Is the answer more time by myself, yeah probably. Do I feel like I need to cut free completely. No.

I'll propose the idea of winding back contact to a few days a week for a while.


----------



## ThePheonix

Poida my man, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. In one post, you're totally into the chick, even turned on by her smell. In the next couple of post, its her face that you have a problem with, and than its her body that's a turn off. Here's a thought Dawg. This chick or no other woman is ever going to be a facsimile of the one that ditched you for another dude.


----------



## poida

ThePheonix said:


> Poida my man, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. In one post, you're totally into the chick, even turned on by her smell. In the next couple of post, its her face that you have a problem with, and than its her body that's a turn off. Here's a thought Dawg. This chick or no other woman is ever going to be a facsimile of the one that ditched you for another dude.


I hear you and it's impossible to explain really.

The thing is, everything I have said (even seemingly conflicting things) are accurate at the time. It is see-sawing at it's finest. I can totally understand why people struggle to understand my issue. That is because they have a healthy view of what being "in love" is and mine is warped, a fantasy if you will.

And so, having lost that fantasy, and now I'm not feeling that safe, reassuring carefree fantasy with my GF, the obvious conclusion is that it must be her body that I'm not attracted to. That is what my brain thinks sometimes and I am in the process of re-training what a healthy love is. Recognition of this fact is not enough alone. It will take patience and time and a lot of work to make sure I am happy within myself.

One thing that I am actually past is my wife. I no longer want her, think of her or want her body (well hers specifically anyway). It was a big step for me and one I'm proud to have passed.

As Turnera pointed out, I'm simply not in a place where I'm stable enough or resolved enough internally to be in a relationship.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

poida said:


> The problem is now that I have moments when I question....well... everything..... I get anxious.


You can't help questioning things, the questions are naturally spontaneous when out of your comfort zone. Don't be so hard on yourself or avoid what naturally arises.

Be present with those anxious feelings. Open up to that vulnerability and they will eventually dissipate. 

Mediation will help too if you are up for it.

The cutting back time with her sounds good though, because that IS in your control.


----------



## JerryB

Maybe you can limit future meetings with her to hikes, bike rides, and the gym.

Actually, that's kind of controlling.

People ARE allowed to just date, and even have sex. It's only your codependent background that is forcing this into a possible life-partner situation. That's not normal.


----------



## bandit.45

Draw us a mental picture of what her body looks like. I want to understand what is bugging you.


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Draw us a mental picture of what her body looks like. I want to understand what is bugging you.


5'9, Size 12, c cup, mildly pear shaped. 
Agh, you can't describe in words can you.


----------



## happyman64

poida said:


> 5'9, Size 12, c cup, mildly pear shaped.
> Agh, you can't describe in words can you.


You forgot her weight.

Then describe yourself to us.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

You say,



poida said:


> 5'9, Size 12, c cup, mildly pear shaped.
> Agh, you can't describe in words can you.


I'd say, just the right height, with an ample bust line and the kind if hips that make you think about how great it is when you get to slow dance with her. The kind of body that I'd dream about being next to all the day long and would be holding tight all night long.

You and I are definitely on the opposite ends of the spectrum here.

Either way, it boils down to how you're going to handle this. If you decide to break it off with her and you tell her it's because she's not thin enough, or too "curvy", you're going to break her heart. The longer you wait, the larger that hurt will be.

Some day, your outlook on woman's body shape may change. I had a friend that would ONLY date lean, thin, or skinny women. We use to crack wise about how he liked boy scouts with boobs. Then he started dating his current Wife.

He invited her to come over when I was going to be there one day. I was stunned. She was tall, had about 50 extra pounds(at least) and was a classic pear shape. She's Jewish and was the epitome of a larger Jewish gal. Especially around the hips.

After she left, he smirked at me and said "So, are you surprised?". I said "Yes! She's my type of women, not yours..." He said he wasn't even considering a second date when he first met her. But something changed for him. He told me that when they were intimate for the first time, he couldn't remember when he was more excited about it.

They're still married, with twin boys and she's still about the same shape and size. Don't get so caught up in how your GF doesn't quite fit into your perceived notion of "the perfect body", as your perception may change over the years.


----------



## poida

happyman64 said:


> You forgot her weight.
> 
> Then describe yourself to us.


Weight? Who knows. If I had to guess, maybe 70kg? or 155lb's for you ye olde imperial folk.

I'm 6ft, 81kg, 178lb's. Gym and upper body weights twice a week so relatively well toned. Abs slightly visible. Moderate pecs. Fairly typical Eastern European body type and olive skin I suppose. No back hair, some chest and front hair. Short brown hair, a little balding at the front. As a number for my age, I don't know... maybe 7? I'd personally take 1-2 points off for the balding but some women don't seem to care.


----------



## poida

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> You say,
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say, just the right height, with an ample bust line and the kind if hips that make you think about how great it is when you get to slow dance with her. The kind of body that I'd dream about being next to all the day long and would be holding tight all night long.
> 
> You and I are definitely on the opposite ends of the spectrum here.
> 
> Either way, it boils down to how you're going to handle this. If you decide to break it off with her and you tell her it's because she's not thin enough, or too "curvy", you're going to break her heart. The longer you wait, the larger that hurt will be.
> 
> Some day, your outlook on woman's body shape may change. I had a friend that would ONLY date lean, thin, or skinny women. We use to crack wise about how he liked boy scouts with boobs. Then he started dating his current Wife.
> 
> He invited her to come over when I was going to be there one day. I was stunned. She was tall, had about 50 extra pounds(at least) and was a classic pear shape. She's Jewish and was the epitome of a larger Jewish gal. Especially around the hips.
> 
> After she left, he smirked at me and said "So, are you surprised?". I said "Yes! She's my type of women, not yours..." He said he wasn't even considering a second date when he first met her. But something changed for him. He told me that when they were intimate for the first time, he couldn't remember when he was more excited about it.
> 
> They're still married, with twin boys and she's still about the same shape and size. Don't get so caught up in how your GF doesn't quite fit into your perceived notion of "the perfect body", as your perception may change over the years.


Well...... after this morning...... I think I'm over the whole body thing. I really took control and spent time enjoying her body.

I can now honestly say the whole body thing isn't that big a deal for me now and I enjoyed hers today.

But I'm still stuck on her face which I think is a bigger thing.

I know I'm still carrying a lot of issues and stress so I'm going to work on those over the next 2 weeks and see if anything changes.

Thanks for the comments guys!!!


----------



## bigfoot

Poida, you need to end this relationship. I hate to sound judgmental, but you are soooo not ready for a relationship right now. I mean, seriously, your issues with ending it with your ex don't really lead to a healthy relationship this close. I think that you wanted the affirmation of being wanted, but that is not the basis of a good relationship.

Secondly, you sound very shallow. You took off points for yourself for losing some hair?! Are you kidding me? Adult relationships between well adjusted people are not based on such superficial things. Hell, people get old, fat, sick, injured.... and good relationships with well adjusted people keep on. You are focused on the wrong thing.

Additionally, you are "cheating" with this woman. Follow me on this. Affairs are based on false things, like ego's being stroked. Many cheaters are not really attracted to their AP's, but rather what the AP does for them. Often its ego based. While you are not actually cheating with this woman, you are engaging in a cheaters dynamic. You have issues with her face and body, but you are willing to use her body for your gratification. THAT, my dear sir, is cheater behavior. Stop using this woman. 

Finally, you are betraying this woman in the worst way possible short of actually cheating ON her. You talk negatively about her to strangers but you lead her on and enjoy her body and use her emotions. You betray her daily. Eventually, you are gonna tire of her or just worse yet, treat her like an object. What you are doing is cruel. You may not see it as cruel because you don't think of yourself as a cruel person, but look at it. If you were to tell her everything that you have told us how do you think she would handle it? Please, in the name of all that is holy DO NOT TELL HER. Instead, do the honorable thing. Tell her that you are not ready for a relationship with her and end it. Tell her it is you and not her. Tell her that you are really in a bad place and that it needs to end.

Sorry to be so harsh, but compare your behavior towards this woman to what happened to you. You are making a fool out of her and that is not a good look. You can tell me off, if you want, but I have been in your corner, even if I did not post, since I followed you. Now, support means speaking truth to you about you. Peace.


----------



## poida

bigfoot said:


> Poida, you need to end this relationship. I hate to sound judgmental, but you are soooo not ready for a relationship right now. I mean, seriously, your issues with ending it with your ex don't really lead to a healthy relationship this close. I think that you wanted the affirmation of being wanted, but that is not the basis of a good relationship.
> 
> Secondly, you sound very shallow. You took off points for yourself for losing some hair?! Are you kidding me? Adult relationships between well adjusted people are not based on such superficial things. Hell, people get old, fat, sick, injured.... and good relationships with well adjusted people keep on. You are focused on the wrong thing.
> 
> Additionally, you are "cheating" with this woman. Follow me on this. Affairs are based on false things, like ego's being stroked. Many cheaters are not really attracted to their AP's, but rather what the AP does for them. Often its ego based. While you are not actually cheating with this woman, you are engaging in a cheaters dynamic. You have issues with her face and body, but you are willing to use her body for your gratification. THAT, my dear sir, is cheater behavior. Stop using this woman.
> 
> Finally, you are betraying this woman in the worst way possible short of actually cheating ON her. You talk negatively about her to strangers but you lead her on and enjoy her body and use her emotions. You betray her daily. Eventually, you are gonna tire of her or just worse yet, treat her like an object. What you are doing is cruel. You may not see it as cruel because you don't think of yourself as a cruel person, but look at it. If you were to tell her everything that you have told us how do you think she would handle it? Please, in the name of all that is holy DO NOT TELL HER. Instead, do the honorable thing. Tell her that you are not ready for a relationship with her and end it. Tell her it is you and not her. Tell her that you are really in a bad place and that it needs to end.
> 
> Sorry to be so harsh, but compare your behavior towards this woman to what happened to you. You are making a fool out of her and that is not a good look. You can tell me off, if you want, but I have been in your corner, even if I did not post, since I followed you. Now, support means speaking truth to you about you. Peace.


No sweat.

Obviously, no post can go into detail about how I feel about someone and how the emotions of going through a divorce affect how I interact with my GF.

With that in mind, the comments you put forward would certainly be a blunt and extreme version of the current situation, but I'm sure you already knew that. I'm sure you are just trying to make a point.

Obviously I don't talk about how much I care about this woman, how much fin we have together, how good our chemistry is, how I am growing to appreciate her body, how I have feelings for her, how we are best friends.

Clearly, my posts have focussed on the negative and the things that confuse and baffle me in my situation. It is an entirely self indulgent view of the relationship.

Now, having said that, I agree with may of your points.

I agree that I do enjoy the ego boost of being in a relationship. Who doesn't.

I agree that I have come to understand that I still don't know why I can't find deeper feelings for this person and find her face really attractive (I'm talking about the loving way not the shallow looks way).

I agree that I talk negatively about her body and face here.

BUT HERE IS WHERE I WOULD DISAGREE;

I am not a shallow person by nature. Not at all. This is why the current experience is so baffling to me. In fact, this is why I have gone over and over the whole body image thing and tried to describe her exactly in an effort to try to understand why the heck I feel this way. I've had average looking GFs before and I quickly grew to love every aspect of them. I see no reason why this shouldn't happen in this relationship. Especially since everything else is going so well. Do you see now why this is so confusing and stressful for me?

I think I have come to understand that this isn't about body image at all, and that it is about something in me that isn't ready to open up completely yet. I think that knowing that has allowed me to move past the body image thing. I think I made great progress this morning and I don't see it as being selfish of malicious or devious. It is simply a hurt person learning to love again.

Falling in love with a person's face is an all together more personal thing though. It is a glimpse into someone's soul and connecting deeply with that person is an ability that I seem to be missing right now.

I would like to point out that I have been very transparent through this whole process with her. I have always told her when I feel anxious about being in a relationship. I always tell her how I feel about being with her, and when I feel I need time alone, and why. Obviously I haven't told you these things. 

I have come to the conclusion that something within me is preventing me from falling for this woman and in fact any woman. Its clear I haven't pieced together why that is yet. 

Now, the debate about whether hurt people learning to love should be dating or have a GF.

Well, let's pose a few obvious questions from her point of view;

Is she knowingly in a relationship with someone going through a divorce. Yes.

Is she in the knowledge that her BF is struggling with anxiety about being in a relationship? Yes.

Is she aware that her BF has not "fallen" for her yet. Yes.

Has she had a discussion with her BF and acknowledged that this relationship may not work out, but that both people are in it for good intentions? Yes.

Look, I get it, and you make good points.

Should I break up with her. Perhaps.

But I put this to you. She is aware of how I feel. She knows that I have issues with anxiety about the relationship. She knows I haven't fallen for her yet. Knowing all that, she has said she wants to persist with the relationship, even knowing it could fail. 

I have thought about this a lot, and I think there are a lot of aspects of being hurt and learning to love again that can't be read in a book or talked about in counselling. It has to be LIVED. You need to actually begin the process of feeling again by ACTUALLY FEELING. By meeting someone you care about and experiencing the feelings that go with that. By dealing with emotions as they arise and by discussing the barriers and anxieties you have in that process with your counsellor, your partner and, well, you guys. 

Do I thing it is possible to learnt these things being single? No, I honestly do not. 
I see your point. But at some point, a man has to begin seeing people again. Does this mean someone might get hurt? Sure. Do people get hurt everyday in normal relationships? Absolutely. Is having good intentions and being completely transparent good enough? I would like to think that it is. 

You get bucked off the horse. As some point you have to get back on that horse. You will be nervous and ride badly for a while, but eventually you learn and you get better.

Knowing what you know of me now, and knowing there is nothing you could tell my GF that she doesn't already know (other than the pointlessly cruel), what would you do?


----------



## ThePheonix

Poida, I know you deny it, but it sure sounds like you're still carrying a big torch for your ex. You've been jumping around about not liking this girls body to not liking her face this entire thread. 
Based on your description of your wonderful relationship with your newbe, it really sounds like you're just unable to "see" yourself in a permanent relationship with anyone but your ex and you're sabotaging your own feelings. 
It hard for anybody to comprehend how you care about this woman, how much fun you have together, how good the chemistry is, how you have feelings for her, how ya'll are best friends and at the same time want to walk away. Its just inconsistent with reality you can have those kind of feelings and have a problem with her face, which probably isn't really bad at all. I'd love to see a picture of this chick just to see where you're coming from.


----------



## poida

ThePheonix said:


> Poida, I know you deny it, but it sure sounds like you're still carrying a big torch for your ex. You've been jumping around about not liking this girls body to not liking her face this entire thread.
> Based on your description of your wonderful relationship with your newbe, it really sounds like you're just unable to "see" yourself in a permanent relationship with anyone but your ex and you're sabotaging your own feelings.
> It hard for anybody to comprehend how you care about this woman, how much fun you have together, how good the chemistry is, how you have feelings for her, how ya'll are best friends and at the same time want to walk away. Its just inconsistent with reality you can have those kind of feelings and have a problem with her face, which probably isn't really bad at all. I'd love to see a picture of this chick just to see where you're coming from.


Hi Tom,
I wouldn't feel comfortable compromising her privacy online but I can tell you she isn't unattractive. An entirely normal average pretty woman.

I can tell you with certainty I don't hold a candle for my ex. I know this for certain. Not her body, not her face, not anything about her. I am past even hating her. I simply don't care anymore and find the entire thought of her a turn off.

I'm beginning to think a lot of this is about TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK. The thought of another failed relationship too much perhaps? Perhaps it is the enormous amount of pressure I am putting on myself not letting myself let go.

I am also aware that I have residual issues with pleasing women. I am constantly thinking "I really don't want to hurt this girl". Again, totally counter productive to letting a relationship take it's own natural path (whatever that may be). I get that yet I still care and worry for her.

I can't believe nobody has been in this position and can offer some advise that isn't just telling me I'm not ready for a relationship or to drop this woman now.

More counselling tomorrow. Hopefully something comes of that.

I can't believe I'm back here. Feeling sad and overwhelmed.


----------



## poida

ThePheonix said:


> Poida, I know you deny it, but it sure sounds like you're still carrying a big torch for your ex. You've been jumping around about not liking this girls body to not liking her face this entire thread.
> Based on your description of your wonderful relationship with your newbe, it really sounds like you're just unable to "see" yourself in a permanent relationship with anyone but your ex and you're sabotaging your own feelings.
> It hard for anybody to comprehend how you care about this woman, how much fun you have together, how good the chemistry is, how you have feelings for her, how ya'll are best friends and at the same time want to walk away. Its just inconsistent with reality you can have those kind of feelings and have a problem with her face, which probably isn't really bad at all. I'd love to see a picture of this chick just to see where you're coming from.


And really what is the big deal with preferring a certain type of body. I challenge any man to say they wouldn't PREFER to have a Heidi Klum or a Halle Berry or even a Sophia Vergara type body in bed with them. I mean seriously, try to deny it!!!! I dare you.

Yes, I get that it ranks lower in importance than being happy, but hell, it doesn't hurt does it. I'm just sayin'.

That fact is that I've only every been with slim, younger women and I think it's fair enough to be a bit less impressed by being back in the dating pool where women have aged 15 years and most have put on some weight. This is new to me and I'm just saying how it is.

I mean in cave man days, the hottest bird was probably the only one getting jumped! They didn't care whether she had a great personality or not. And some of that is still with us. THAT is reality.

Sheesh!!


----------



## bigfoot

To answer your question, I would cool things off with her, break up. Here is why.

You talk about being bucked off a horse and having to get back on. Well, you haven't finished your last ride. Your divorce is not yet final. You are in the air, off the horse, got hit in the mouth on your way down, but you have not yet hit the ground and dealt with all of the ramifications. Infidelity and divorce are two HUGE issues. You are going to need some time. If you are a sports fan, I put it this way, you suffered an ACL injury and are coming back too soon. Your team knows the issue, they know your desire to win and your competitive spirit, but your knee is just not ready and you will hurt yourself and ruin your teams long term chances of winning.

To be sure, there is no requirement for you to live single forever, but until the divorce is final and you have learned to be single and dealt with all of the other damage that you may not be aware of that you endured, you should not hand your hat on the idea that she knows the risks. 

Its your life and you have lived it fine without my opinion and will continue to do so.


----------



## ThePheonix

poida said:


> And really what is the big deal with preferring a certain type of body. I challenge any man to say they wouldn't PREFER to have a Heidi Klum or a Halle Berry or even a Sophia Vergara type body in bed with them. I mean seriously, try to deny it!!!! I dare you.


I've been around long enough to believe a fifty year old woman is a young chick. I don't really have a dog in the fight regarding whether you continue with or leave this current relationship. Heidi Klum, Halle Berry or Sophia Vergara notwithstanding, I can go to the grocery store and see women I'm attracted to. But that doesn't mean I question my relationship with my wife to go for what's behind door number three. 

What's hard for me, and I believe others, to understand is your ambivalence toward this woman's appearence when you say there is so much chemistry and you get along so well. I'm merely pointing out that your actions may indicate you're more into this girl than you're willing to admit to yourself.

Additionally, I recommend you reject any notion of "making it work". From my experience if it doesn't come easy, you need to let it go.


----------



## poida

ThePheonix said:


> I've been around long enough to believe a fifty year old woman is a young chick. I don't really have a dog in the fight regarding whether you continue with or leave this current relationship. Heidi Klum, Halle Berry or Sophia Vergara notwithstanding, I can go to the grocery store and see women I'm attracted to. But that doesn't mean I question my relationship with my wife to go for what's behind door number three.
> 
> What's hard for me, and I believe others, to understand is your ambivalence toward this woman's appearence when you say there is so much chemistry and you get along so well. I'm merely pointing out that your actions may indicate you're more into this girl than you're willing to admit to yourself.
> 
> Additionally, I recommend you reject any notion of "making it work". From my experience if it doesn't come easy, you need to let it go.


I have taken tonight to myself to relax and let my mind reset.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't know why I don't know whether I'm not falling for this woman. This much I know. He he.

I might be unconsciously not ready to open up
I might just not find her that attractive.
I might be pushing myself to find comfort in another woman
I might be trying so hard I'm not letting it happen.
It could be all of the above.

If there is one thing I hear and take way from the last few pages is that I'M NOT READY. And that could bean a few things, but at the end of the day, SOMETHING isn't ready within me.

I have decided to propose we wind back the relationship to a contact only a few times a week and see what happens. I need to spend more time alone and with mates to find the next layer in myself. If she is unhappy with that then I will let that bird fly. 

Thanks guys and gals.


----------



## bigfoot

THAT, sir, was an excellent bit of self analysis. I commend you, not because you are going in the direction that others, including me, have suggested; rather, because YOU are taking charge of your life and making well reasoned decisions. The best thing to come out of all the crap you went through is YOU.


----------



## poida

OMG, so much stress has lifted after suggesting we cool it off for a while. Phew..... I feel like I can work on myself now.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> And really what is the big deal with preferring a certain type of body.


Nothing. Unless you use it to pick the wrong woman. Like I told you (I think), my brother kept picking skinny white girls - and they all screwed him over, to a one. He picked women based on looks alone, thinking that would make him happy. And he was wrong.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Nothing. Unless you use it to pick the wrong woman. Like I told you (I think), my brother kept picking skinny white girls - and they all screwed him over, to a one. He picked women based on looks alone, thinking that would make him happy. And he was wrong.


It's always a package deal. I mean that much is obvious isn't it?It's just a preference. I just hate it when people say it shouldn't factor. Fact is it does.


----------



## ThePheonix

Its a factor but not the only factor and not a major factor. (unless used for the initial attraction) The "benefits" of a pretty woman can go south in a hurry if she lacks loyalty and integrity.


----------



## poida

So after some counselling and some time alone., I am beginning to realise the scale if the pressure I have been putting myself under by having this new relationship. I have not seen this girl since Monday morning and at the moment I'm not ready to see her again quite yet. Just learning to look after my needs as far as dealing with my current life is concerned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

uh yeah, that is why we keep telling people not to date for a year or two.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> uh yeah, that is why we keep telling people not to date for a year or two.


Yeah yeah... you told me....

I just had to find it out my way. I wouldn't change that.

But the consistent voice of reason on this site did help get me there..... well... eventually anyway.


----------



## poida

Aghhhhhh
I don't know why I did that.
Saw a comment to my WW on facebook from a friend of mine. I should have known better but clicked it and it took me to her profile page with updates.
She is now publically "In a relationship" with the person she cheated on me with.
I mean really??????? Is it necessary to make that public knowledge when we aren't even divorced yet.
Talk about a complete and total lack of moral character.
I'm so embarrassed.
I shouldn't have but I sent a fairly abusive sms.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> Aghhhhhh
> I don't know why I did that.
> Saw a comment to my WW on facebook from a friend of mine. I should have known better but clicked it and it took me to her profile page with updates.
> She is now publically "In a relationship" with the person she cheated on me with.
> I mean really??????? Is it necessary to make that public knowledge when we aren't even divorced yet.
> Talk about a complete and total lack of moral character.
> I'm so embarrassed.
> I shouldn't have but I sent a fairly abusive sms.


...an SMS that only makes her feel more justified in doing it. She's laughing at you because you have no power and it makes you weak.

Im almost afraid to ask what you said...


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> ...an SMS that only makes her feel more justified in doing it. She's laughing at you because you have no power and it makes you weak.
> 
> Im almost afraid to ask what you said...


Ive learnt I can't keep this stuff in. I don't really give a sh*t how my SMS makes her feel. I just feel so f*cking mad. 

There are lots of people who still don't know what she did and they find out on f*cking facebook!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just said it was nice of her to do that when she hasn't even divorced the last bloke she cheated on. I told her I was embarrassed for her and that she truly had no morals.

Perhaps I should make a facebook post of my own. Something about cheating lying wh*res perhaps.

I can't wait to divorce this f*cking b*tch.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

poida said:


> Ive learnt I can't keep this stuff in. I don't really give a sh*t how my SMS makes her feel. I just feel so f*cking mad.
> 
> There are lots of people who still don't know what she did and they find out on f*cking facebook!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I just said it was nice of her to do that when she hasn't even divorced the last bloke she cheated on. I told her I was embarrassed for her and that she truly had no morals.
> 
> Perhaps I should make a facebook post of my own. Something about cheating lying wh*res perhaps.
> 
> I can't wait to divorce this f*cking b*tch.


Oh hey- thats fine by me man. Belay my last 

Yeah, she'll just roll her eyes and blame you for what she's doing, but like you said- who cares? You know what she is. I figured with your past you sent one groveling and telling her how hurt it made you, etc.

Sucks youre here man, but at least youre moving forward :smthumbup:


----------



## poida

You know, I still can't believe people cheat their partners when they have a perfectly good marriage. 

I just can't begin to imagine what they are thinking.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> Perhaps I should make a facebook post of my own. Something about cheating lying wh*res perhaps.


You know I would! But I'm stubborn. 

Well, I'd be a little more subtle, maybe "Nice to see you're making it public - before you're divorced - that you've been stepping out on your marriage." Not to have an effect on HER, but to inform anyone else, so that their fairy tale relationship will be too embarrassing to continue. Which is why we push exposure at the first possible moment.


----------



## happyman64

poida said:


> You know, I still can't believe people cheat their partners when they have a perfectly good marriage.
> 
> I just can't begin to imagine what they are thinking.


Poida

Do really want to make her think?

Then go dark on her. Unfriend her on facebook.

Divorce her.

Never speak to her again. You really have no reason to.

But before all of of that put her and the OM on CHeaterville.

It will bite them in the butt in the near future.

That is how you get them to think. Show them consequences.

And stop wearing your feelings on your sleeve.

She does not deserve any of your emotions. Even anger.

HM


----------



## weightlifter

Facebook post
Roses are red. 
Violets are blue.
How nice of you to be in a relationship with the guy you cheated on me with.
You arent even divorced yet.

Oh wait that doesnt rhyme does it?

Oops my bad.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

weightlifter said:


> Facebook post
> Roses are red.
> Violets are blue.
> How nice of you to be in a relationship with the guy you cheated on me with.
> You arent even divorced yet.
> 
> Oh wait that doesnt rhyme does it?
> 
> Oops my bad.


Haha, I like it :smthumbup:

Id be tempted to do:
"Oooo.. relationships blooming make me sooo happy  It makes my poetic side flare with enthusiasm! 

Roses are red, Violets are blue,
"In a relationship" while married,
Makes a sl*t out of you!

And all the kings horses and all the kings men,
Couldnt put your dignity back together again. 

Toodles now lovebirds   Dont forget to get pregnant!"


----------



## weightlifter

I majored in sacasm.

Got all A's.


----------



## treyvion

weightlifter said:


> I majored in sacasm.
> 
> Got all A's.


Your mailbox is full weightlifter.

Just for kicks I put the VAR in the bedroom, and one of her best party girlfriends happen to be in town. I will text you the details,
but it appeared most was innocent "girl talk"... However at 2 hrs and 39 minutes into the VOR track, I did find some discriminating info and my female was the one speaking... Not good.

I know the car will reveal a proper picture, and I been in her 3 years, whats another 3 months. I want to leave on my own and under full power. I prolly won't say anything as I bail and just don't talk to her.


----------



## poida

happyman64 said:


> Poida
> 
> Do really want to make her think?
> 
> Then go dark on her. Unfriend her on facebook.
> 
> Divorce her.
> 
> Never speak to her again. You really have no reason to.
> 
> But before all of of that put her and the OM on CHeaterville.
> 
> It will bite them in the butt in the near future.
> 
> That is how you get them to think. Show them consequences.
> 
> And stop wearing your feelings on your sleeve.
> 
> She does not deserve any of your emotions. Even anger.
> 
> HM


Unfriended her months ago. I was just stupid to even look at her profile. Totally my fault. I rarely use facebook now. I have better things in my life going on.

Don't worry, as soon as that 12 month restriction ticks over (Australian Law), she will have the divorce papers. No hesitation. I'm ready.

I've been dark on her for 2 months now. It's been very peaceful actually. Just a lapse of judgement on my part looking at her page and sending an SMS.

I think it was a point worth making anyway. I don't want her feeling good about having that on her page. I want it to haunt her... and it will now.


----------



## poida

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Haha, I like it :smthumbup:
> 
> Id be tempted to do:
> "Oooo.. relationships blooming make me sooo happy  It makes my poetic side flare with enthusiasm!
> 
> Roses are red, Violets are blue,
> "In a relationship" while married,
> Makes a sl*t out of you!
> 
> And all the kings horses and all the kings men,
> Couldnt put your dignity back together again.
> 
> Toodles now lovebirds   Dont forget to get pregnant!"


Waaaaa haaa haaaaa haaa.....he he..


----------



## poida

Oh dear.

I think I've started to fall for this girl............. face and body morphing is well advanced now.

I now have NO concerns or even thoughts about face or body image.

Time apart to deal with my past and become comfortable in my own company has made a HUGE difference.

We are going to maintain the time apart as I don't want to break up now.

I'm getting there....


----------



## happyman64

So Poida I will tell you a little story.

I had a fiancé once about 30 years ago.

She was smoking hot. A model. We dated exclusively through half of high school into ,my first year of military school. We got engaged right before I left for the academy.

We wrote. Talked on the phone. I had one break that 1st year. Just as I was leaving to go back to the academy she hit me with the old "I think we should see other people".

Oh was I naïve. Talked her out of it. Little did I know she was already dating many people.

She came up to visit me twice for dances. It was passionate. Great. I did not know where her tears came from we were getting along so well those two long weekends. The phone conversations tapered off, so did the letters.

We planned a trip overseas for the summer once I got home.

I came home early. I thought I would surprise her. Just as I was pulling up in front of her home I saw a buddy's car in the driveway. I looked in the window and saw her going at with my buddy. A guy I knew since HS.

I left devastated. Brokenhearted.

I returned the next night to confront her. Another one of my friends car was in the driveway. looked in the window and there they were going at it.

I was suicidal.

To make long story short she was doing 4 of my best buddies. They were taking turns sharing her. 

My parents were pretty worried about me.

I told them I would be ok. But I was very angry. I contacted each of their parents and let them know what I saw going on.

I then confronted each one of my friends and put the fear of God into them. I taught them a lesson and got my anger out. Not one of their parents said a word to me or pressed charges.

My fiancé showed up at my door on Xmas Eve to make peace. I took the ring back from her without a word spoken. I showed her the door. My new girlfriend was standing right next to me.

I gave up on the hot looking chick type. I was attracted to short, round, cute and loyal.

I married that girl Poida. Together 27 years and married for 23.

Changing the type of girl worked for me. I also looked closely at her family. Strong Irish Catholic family that are honest, loyal and tough.

That has worked for us as well.

Try it. If it works accept it.

My 3 daughters always complain that they are short and round. I laugh and tease them when I say "Did you expect to grow up looking like models???".

I am so glad they are not.

There's my story my friend. I hope you learn something from it.

I turned 50 today Poida. I received some nice gifts in my second life and wanted to share them with you.

HM


----------



## poida

happyman64 said:


> So Poida I will tell you a little story.
> 
> I had a fiancé once about 30 years ago.
> 
> She was smoking hot. A model. We dated exclusively through half of high school into ,my first year of military school. We got engaged right before I left for the academy.
> 
> We wrote. Talked on the phone. I had one break that 1st year. Just as I was leaving to go back to the academy she hit me with the old "I think we should see other people".
> 
> Oh was I naïve. Talked her out of it. Little did I know she was already dating many people.
> 
> She came up to visit me twice for dances. It was passionate. Great. I did not know where her tears came from we were getting along so well those two long weekends. The phone conversations tapered off, so did the letters.
> 
> We planned a trip overseas for the summer once I got home.
> 
> I came home early. I thought I would surprise her. Just as I was pulling up in front of her home I saw a buddy's car in the driveway. I looked in the window and saw her going at with my buddy. A guy I knew since HS.
> 
> I left devastated. Brokenhearted.
> 
> I returned the next night to confront her. Another one of my friends car was in the driveway. looked in the window and there they were going at it.
> 
> I was suicidal.
> 
> To make long story short she was doing 4 of my best buddies. They were taking turns sharing her.
> 
> My parents were pretty worried about me.
> 
> I told them I would be ok. But I was very angry. I contacted each of their parents and let them know what I saw going on.
> 
> I then confronted each one of my friends and put the fear of God into them. I taught them a lesson and got my anger out. Not one of their parents said a word to me or pressed charges.
> 
> My fiancé showed up at my door on Xmas Eve to make peace. I took the ring back from her without a word spoken. I showed her the door. My new girlfriend was standing right next to me.
> 
> I gave up on the hot looking chick type. I was attracted to short, round, cute and loyal.
> 
> I married that girl Poida. Together 27 years and married for 23.
> 
> Changing the type of girl worked for me. I also looked closely at her family. Strong Irish Catholic family that are honest, loyal and tough.
> 
> That has worked for us as well.
> 
> Try it. If it works accept it.
> 
> My 3 daughters always complain that they are short and round. I laugh and tease them when I say "Did you expect to grow up looking like models???".
> 
> I am so glad they are not.
> 
> There's my story my friend. I hope you learn something from it.
> 
> I turned 50 today Poida. I received some nice gifts in my second life and wanted to share them with you.
> 
> HM


Nice story and HAPPY BIRTHDAY (you old bastard!!!!!).

I can only hope to have such a fortunate future.

I can see a very happy life with this woman so despite advice here telling me I shouldn't be in a relationship, I have decided I am not going to break up with her.

It is the first time I have felt that a woman has my back and it is an amazing feeling. It is truly a balanced and healthy relationship where we are independent yet value each other above all others. 

I obviously have more healing to do, but with some space to myself (and continuing counselling) I am making big steps forward and I think I can actually finish the process of healing and moving forward this way. In fact I know I can.

This weekend is going to be tough. Emptying the house, seeing the WW to divide up remaining possessions and moving to a new house (a sweet bachelor pad with river views BTW!!!!). 

It's been an amazing journey and honestly, without the advice given to me on this site, I would still be in a cloud.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

happyman64 said:


> So Poida I will tell you a little story.
> 
> I had a fiancé once about 30 years ago.
> 
> She was smoking hot. A model. We dated exclusively through half of high school into ,my first year of military school. We got engaged right before I left for the academy.
> 
> We wrote. Talked on the phone. I had one break that 1st year. Just as I was leaving to go back to the academy she hit me with the old "I think we should see other people".
> 
> Oh was I naïve. Talked her out of it. Little did I know she was already dating many people.
> 
> She came up to visit me twice for dances. It was passionate. Great. I did not know where her tears came from we were getting along so well those two long weekends. The phone conversations tapered off, so did the letters.
> 
> We planned a trip overseas for the summer once I got home.
> 
> I came home early. I thought I would surprise her. Just as I was pulling up in front of her home I saw a buddy's car in the driveway. I looked in the window and saw her going at with my buddy. A guy I knew since HS.
> 
> I left devastated. Brokenhearted.
> 
> I returned the next night to confront her. Another one of my friends car was in the driveway. looked in the window and there they were going at it.
> 
> I was suicidal.
> 
> To make long story short she was doing 4 of my best buddies. They were taking turns sharing her.
> 
> My parents were pretty worried about me.
> 
> I told them I would be ok. But I was very angry. I contacted each of their parents and let them know what I saw going on.
> 
> I then confronted each one of my friends and put the fear of God into them. I taught them a lesson and got my anger out. Not one of their parents said a word to me or pressed charges.
> 
> My fiancé showed up at my door on Xmas Eve to make peace. I took the ring back from her without a word spoken. I showed her the door. My new girlfriend was standing right next to me.
> 
> I gave up on the hot looking chick type. I was attracted to short, round, cute and loyal.
> 
> I married that girl Poida. Together 27 years and married for 23.
> 
> Changing the type of girl worked for me. I also looked closely at her family. Strong Irish Catholic family that are honest, loyal and tough.
> 
> That has worked for us as well.
> 
> Try it. If it works accept it.
> 
> My 3 daughters always complain that they are short and round. I laugh and tease them when I say "Did you expect to grow up looking like models???".
> 
> I am so glad they are not.
> 
> There's my story my friend. I hope you learn something from it.
> 
> I turned 50 today Poida. I received some nice gifts in my second life and wanted to share them with you.
> 
> HM


 / 

Jesus man. Thats betrayal by your girl AND by your friends. That had to be really really tough. What total bullsh!t! Ive been betrayed by my uncle (not in terms of a woman  ), but I cant imagine my fiance and 4 of my friends.

Its great you found the one! That old fiance is prolly miserable now, and you have something nearly everyone dreams of.

Anyways, back to Poida... great to hear things are looking up for you


----------



## happyman64

The old fiance who was studying law ended up broke and addicted to crack.

My best buddy out of the 4 had a successful career in finance.

His Mom & Dad passed away a few years after that.

Then was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He was operated on about 10 years ago. Lost use of his right arm and leg. He cannot work nor drive.

I have not even bothered to look up the others. I could care less.

Have a great life Poida. Remember that the journey is just beginning. The key is picking the right partner to take the ride with you.


----------



## poida

happyman64 said:


> The old fiance who was studying law ended up broke and addicted to crack.
> 
> My best buddy out of the 4 had a successful career in finance.
> 
> His Mom & Dad passed away a few years after that.
> 
> Then was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He was operated on about 10 years ago. Lost use of his right arm and leg. He cannot work nor drive.
> 
> I have not even bothered to look up the others. I could care less.
> 
> Have a great life Poida. Remember that the journey is just beginning. The key is picking the right partner to take the ride with you.


Or is it to ride the right partner .... he he ......


----------



## happyman64

Good to know that men think the same way on the other side of the world.

There is hope for you yet.


----------



## bandit.45

How did the meetup with ex go Poida?


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> How did the meetup with ex go Poida?


Hey Bandit...How's it hangin!!!!!!!!!!

Meet up is on weekend. 

Honestly, I am very anxious as it has gone downhill between us lately. I have a bit of hatred going for her but to be honest it's more "couldn't give a sh*t" type attitude than anything.

My parents and my GF are helping me move this weekend (I feel so lucky to have them). Only clash will be I send them out for a couple hours while the WW comes by and takes remaining stuff.

I'm nervous but I'll be strong and ready.


----------



## happyman64

poida said:


> Hey Bandit...How's it hangin!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Meet up is on weekend.
> 
> Honestly, I am very anxious as it has gone downhill between us lately. I have a bit of hatred going for her but to be honest it's more "couldn't give a sh*t" type attitude than anything.
> 
> My parents and my GF are helping me move this weekend (I feel so lucky to have them). Only clash will be I send them out for a couple hours while the WW comes by and takes remaining stuff.
> 
> I'm nervous but I'll be strong and ready.


You mean you wont be banging your GF when your STBXW walks in the door of your old home?


----------



## poida

happyman64 said:


> You mean you wont be banging your GF when your STBXW walks in the door of your old home?


Ohhh..... that was a good laugh......

That sounds like a great idea and I know the GF would be up for it too!!!!!!!!!!! waaahahaaaahaaa!!!


----------



## poida

Had counselling last night and it was really helpful.

Any sadness, frustration, anger I still have for my WW is simply due to the inability to connect and communicate with her during our marriage.

I was the mouse in the wheel trying the power the light and finally got tired and the light went out. (I like that analogy). 

So anyway, basically I realised that it was pointless directing these feelings at the WW because I know I'm not going to get any response, acknowledgement or even understanding. It didn't happen in our marriage and it isn't going to happen now.

The purpose of these feelings needs to be used as proof that the relationship was never going to work, and that acceptance of what has happened is the most logical conclusion.

I think that will help a lot on Saturday.....


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

I don't think you should be alone with your STBXWW. Get a buddy or someone to be with you. The last you want to happen is to:
1. Get falsely accused of domestic violence
2. Your GF wondering what happened when you were alone
3. Your STBXWW trying to seduce you just to mess you up etc.

Basically, nothing good can come out of you being alone with her, and lots of bad things can happen.

Best wishes


----------



## poida

HobbesTheTiger said:


> I don't think you should be alone with your STBXWW. Get a buddy or someone to be with you. The last you want to happen is to:
> 1. Get falsely accused of domestic violence
> 2. Your GF wondering what happened when you were alone
> 3. Your STBXWW trying to seduce you just to mess you up etc.
> 
> Basically, nothing good can come out of you being alone with her, and lots of bad things can happen.
> 
> Best wishes


It should be fine but thanks for the warning. She will only be there for 30 mins or so. I think I'll leave my phone on memo recording mode.


----------



## happyman64

Poida

I will give you advice that worked for me.

Never look back. Never look over your shoulder.

Everything you desire, want or need is in front of you.

HM


----------



## poida

happyman64 said:


> Poida
> 
> I will give you advice that worked for me.
> 
> Never look back. Never look over your shoulder.
> 
> Everything you desire, want or need is in front of you.
> 
> HM


Now that I clearly understand that our marriage would never have worked, and that my anger/sadness is simply proof of that, I don't have any doubts about moving on.


----------



## poida

Wow. What a weekend. 
Furniture and assets divided up.
I moved to my new house in the weekend (bachelor pad).
Both sold houses have settled as of 30 mins ago.
Finances will be split tomorrow when the money hits the shared account.
Divorce papers to be signed tomorrow with witness.
Sh*t it's all on.!!!!!

And here I am worrying about why I'm not feeling it with the GF this week......


----------



## LongWalk

Did you see stbx face to face?


----------



## poida

LongWalk said:


> Did you see stbx face to face?


Yes, cleaning the house and also today signing papers.

Quite upsetting really.

I just said nothing and did what I had to do. We walked out of the family court this morning and I said "Bye" turned and walked away without hesitation.

She doesn't deserve closure or minimisation of the situation.


----------



## Jasel

nm OP has it covered.


----------



## happyman64

Good for you Poida.

Now remember what I told you.

Never look back over your shoulder.

There is nothing back there for you.

There is no one back there waiting for you.

Everything you need to go forward in life is right in front of you.

HM


----------



## poida

nm?


----------



## poida

happyman64 said:


> Good for you Poida.
> 
> Now remember what I told you.
> 
> Never look back over your shoulder.
> 
> There is nothing back there for you.
> 
> There is no one back there waiting for you.
> 
> Everything you need to go forward in life is right in front of you.
> 
> HM


Thanks dude. 

Have decided to take a month break from the GF. I need time to let the dust settle.


----------



## Jasel

poida said:


> nm?


I was going to say you should have a recorder on you while the XWW was there but sounds like you already thought of that.


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> Yes, cleaning the house and also today signing papers.
> 
> Quite upsetting really.
> 
> I just said nothing and did what I had to do. We walked out of the family court this morning and I said "Bye" turned and walked away without hesitation.
> 
> She doesn't deserve closure or minimisation of the situation.


Did she show any emotion?


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Did she show any emotion?


She asked if I was OK a few minutes before I left and I shrugged and said "yeah, I'll be fine".

She was holding it back as hard as she could. It was just under the surface though.

Don't worry, she'll find a way to bury/ignore it. Just like she did every other issues in our relationship.


----------



## bandit.45

Shake the dust off your sandals....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Shake the dust off your sandals....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


More like scrape the **** off my double pluggers.


----------



## bandit.45

poida said:


> More like scrape the **** off my double pluggers.


Or that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

So it's 4 months since my last post here.
Things have just got better and better. 
Divorce was final a couple weeks ago.
I no longer care what my ex wife thinks or does. Or what she thinks of me, or our ex-marriage.
I have seriously moved on and rarely think about her.

I'm not going to pretend it has been an easy time with my GF though.
I had been putting a lot of pressure on myself to feel something more for her.
I backed out on one offer for her to move in which was a set back.
Things have been getting better and better every month though.
I have learnt that it just takes a long time to heal a broken heart.

I offered for her to move in again (about a month ago) and she moved in last week.
We also celebrated a year together.
We are now say we love each other regularly now and I'm feelin' it again.
This time it's a more constant and calm feeling for her.
I respect myself now. I have grown an enormous amount. I take responsibility for my own well being.
I read my OP and shake my head. I was but an adolescent, quite dependent on people around me.

I love my girl now and I really think it could go all the way

I'm glad I stuck with her and I don't regret a moment. Being totally open and honest and communicating has made us stronger.


----------



## bandit.45

Good going Poida. Keep on moving on.


----------



## MattMatt

Good to see you again. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

MattMatt said:


> Good to see you again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good to see you still dishin' out good old tough love in other posts. 

he he he

I see now that tough love is what most troubled souls need to shock them into action and look after themselves.


----------



## workindad

Nice update glad you are healing moving forward with your life and doing we'll another example that happiness post divorce can be very real. 

All the best


----------



## poida

Hi Guys, 
A lot has happened in the last 2 months.
But essentially I received a text from my cheating ex-wife in July saying she is getting married in September (with the man she cheated on me with).
The following weekend I was at a yacht club event and she (and her fiance) turned up and started socialising. She was talking and laughing very loud.
I have also started to doubt my relationship with my GF again. I often wake up thinking I have to get out of this.
I feel very down and depressed a lot of the time. I feel very stressed. I struggle to do anything at work anymore. I hardly care.
I have had enough of everything. I'm sick of feeling this way.
I am starting to think that I have a level of depression that needs professional attention.
We are coming out of winter now and at least I should be able to do some more exercise, but I am starting to think I might need to consider anti-depressant medication.
Does anyone have experience with drugs. I don't have an addictive personality but I'm worried about becoming reliant.
I also question whether it actually works and will help long term.


----------



## happyman64

Poida

See your Dr. first. Some antidepressants can be dangerous.

And if your current GF is not doing it for you then break it off. You'll most likely feel better.

As for your ExW. F her.

Her relationship with the OM is doomed.

Stop thinking of her at all. You will definitely feel better then.

HM


----------



## MattMatt

Talking therapy will be of help.

Then you and your doctor can look at mild medications.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

Hopefully coming out of winter and the sun kicking in will help lift you enough that all you will need is a little counselling and not any medication.
The sun helps produce more of the mood-lifting chemical serotonin on sunny days than on darker days.

You have been through a lot and the mind has to learn to adjust to the new life you now lead


----------



## turnera

Your doctor will start with the smallest dose of something. I got Paxil, 20 mg, after my mom died, and it REALLY made a difference. It didn't make me feel weird at all, I just noticed a general desire to get up and accomplish things. And I had no problem whatsoever getting off of it.


----------



## bandit.45

Get help for the depression. Break up with your GF in the kindest way possible. You cannot force yourself to love someone, and you are wasting her time. Be kind to her and end it...even if it means being the bad guy. You still have "nice guy" tendencies and one of them is an inability to make the tough calls. 

As for your exWW...who cares what she does or who she marries? Treat her like she's dead and move on.


----------



## poida

Went to counselling last night.
Seems like am still harbouring a lot of hate toward my ex-wife.
Also toward my GF simply by feeling "trapped" (nothing she did wrong).
Both require me to express anger constructively.
Talking in IC helped.
I also plan to write a letter to the ex-wife, but not send it.

As for the GF. Well I'm very conflicted.
Prior to triggering again, I had my best week with her.
I had genuine love for her and was feeling great.
The way I saw her completely changed. I was happy and guilt free.
I saw her for who she was inside. Outside she was "pretty" and happy.
I didn't see her as the most beautiful woman in the world, but it mattered not. I valued her for who she was.
After triggering, I literally disconnected. I only saw her physical appearance and to be blunt I didn't like what I saw.
My IC has explained that this was anger. Anger that I feel trapped. Anger that I wasn't able to feel love for her all the time. Anger for the constant anxiety and depression I have experienced.
I hear the calls to let her go.
But I keep thinking of the weeks leading up to my recent trigger and how happy I was. I was really starting to see this as a long term relationship.
She is by far the most genuine, open, caring and connected person I have ever met and I love that about her.
As I said above. I am incredibly conflicted about what to do. I know I am not in the right place to do right by her at the moment.
But it is easy to say break up with her when it isn't you.
Meeting her has been the best thing that has ever happened to me. It has restored my faith that there are genuinely good people in the world.
I know that to have the connection we have is a very rare thing. And something in me does not want to give that up.
I don't know what to do. Some of me says to let her go. Another part says I am being so stupid and she is the best thing that has ever happened to me.


----------



## poida

I suppose my gut says to stop worrying and thinking about how I feel about my GF so much and work on myself for a while. I haven't been exercising much. I suppose the first step is to start that again. I read the side effects of some of the anti-depressants and they have put me off big time. I will just keep up my IC, start regular exercise again and let my anger out constructively for a month. I will see how I feel about my GF at that point and make a decision.


----------



## G.J.

If you can make it with out the pills all the better...only if the doctor says you should would i even entertain the idea

Excercise and the sun are great ways to help


----------



## bfree

Poida, you aren't tied to your GF at all. You can break it off whenever you want. There is no reason to feel trapped. When you are betrayed it is very difficult to trust anyone ever again. This is natural. Most likely what is happening is whenever you start to feel like you are in love, you begin to lower your barriers. Your mind then snaps back to a defensive posture and you go into protect mode. Here's what you need to understand. You can love even when you don't trust. Each feeling can rise and fall independent of the other. That's why most BS that you hear say they still love their ex even though they betrayed them, even though they can never trust then again, even though they aren't together anymore. You are still protecting yourself and that's okay. It's normal. It takes 2-5 years to get past infidelity whether you divorce or reconcile. My suggestion is to stay with your GF so long as there are more good times than bad. If the relationship fizzles out and runs its course you'll know and then you each go your separate ways. Communicate with your GF. Be honest. Tell her when you are feeling very loved and loving toward her and tell her when you are feeling detached. So long as you and she know that your detached feelings are rooted in your previous relationship and will fade over time I think things will progress well. The biggest thing is you need to stop putting pressure on yourself. Your ex did that plenty for you. You don't need to do it to yourself.


----------



## happyman64

poida said:


> Hi Guys,
> A lot has happened in the last 2 months.
> But essentially I received a text from my cheating ex-wife in July saying she is getting married in September (with the man she cheated on me with).
> The following weekend I was at a yacht club event and she (and her fiance) turned up and started socialising. She was talking and laughing very loud.
> I have also started to doubt my relationship with my GF again. I often wake up thinking I have to get out of this.
> I feel very down and depressed a lot of the time. I feel very stressed. I struggle to do anything at work anymore. I hardly care.
> I have had enough of everything. I'm sick of feeling this way.
> I am starting to think that I have a level of depression that needs professional attention.
> We are coming out of winter now and at least I should be able to do some more exercise, but I am starting to think I might need to consider anti-depressant medication.
> Does anyone have experience with drugs. I don't have an addictive personality but I'm worried about becoming reliant.
> I also question whether it actually works and will help long term.


Poida

Was your gf with you at the yacht club event?

HM


----------



## GusPolinski

Cross-posting from your other thread...



poida said:


> Wow. Tough day. Saw my ex-wife at a social event at the yacht club. She bought her new fiancée along. After less than 3 months after her divorce, she is engaged.
> I had a pretty hard time staying calm.
> She was being a real b^tch. Making a lot of noise and laughing particularly loud knowing that I was right there. As always, pretending that everything is just perfect when underneath I could tell she was very uncomfortable. Mostly though, she seriously went out of her way to make the impression of "I'm better than you, look at me, I'm engaged already".
> And today, well, I'm not quite sure what to do with all this pent up frustration....
> Glad I've got counselling tonight.
> I can't keep hanging onto this bitterness.
> It is only bringing me down.
> It's a hard thing to let go though.


Do you have a wedding gift picked out for them yet?

I think you should send a couple of these to them...

http://www.amazon.com/Help-Your-Spouse-Heal-Affair/dp/145055332X

One for each of them. They'll probably need it.

:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:

If at all possible, make sure that they open it in front of EVERYBODY.


----------



## poida

bfree said:


> Poida, you aren't tied to your GF at all. You can break it off whenever you want. There is no reason to feel trapped. When you are betrayed it is very difficult to trust anyone ever again. This is natural. Most likely what is happening is whenever you start to feel like you are in love, you begin to lower your barriers. Your mind then snaps back to a defensive posture and you go into protect mode. Here's what you need to understand. You can love even when you don't trust. Each feeling can rise and fall independent of the other. That's why most BS that you hear say they still love their ex even though they betrayed them, even though they can never trust then again, even though they aren't together anymore. You are still protecting yourself and that's okay. It's normal. It takes 2-5 years to get past infidelity whether you divorce or reconcile. My suggestion is to stay with your GF so long as there are more good times than bad. If the relationship fizzles out and runs its course you'll know and then you each go your separate ways. Communicate with your GF. Be honest. Tell her when you are feeling very loved and loving toward her and tell her when you are feeling detached. So long as you and she know that your detached feelings are rooted in your previous relationship and will fade over time I think things will progress well. The biggest thing is you need to stop putting pressure on yourself. Your ex did that plenty for you. You don't need to do it to yourself.


Yep. Spot on.
We had a long talk last night.
I think for the first time since D I have really realised how much I need to focus on myself again. Stop worrying about my GF.
I think you are right, let it take it's course without stressing and worrying about it.
I am back to the gym tonight and I plan to go surfing by myself on the weekend to spend some time with myself.


----------



## poida

Myselff said:


> <<I still love her, but her silence is killing me slowly.>> For me this is the key. You have to talk with her. Talking with a counselor might help. But the fact is that if you and your wife dont try to make it work in a while you will probably hate each other for many and different reasons. Anger is reasonable feeling for your condition. But if you dont express it to your wife by discussion there will be a problem. Imagine anger like a volcano. What happens after a while? The volcano will explode. So you have to do something before the explosion. I am sure that there are many issues you have to talk with your wife. Try to be patient.
> <<"abandonment issues" left over from her last relationship>> is not an alibi for her cheating of course.
> Healing the soul from cheating is as hard as injuries in the body. It takes time.
> I personally don't believe in cheating regrets. That's a fairytale for their partner. It maybe exist real cheating regrets but these is not common.
> So. Whatever you decide to do it is not easy but in the end of the road you will know that you did was the right thing.
> Good luck whatever you decide.


Yeah thanks. We talked last night. I made it clear it was me, I was still angry and hurt, much more so that I have admitted, and that I still have healing to do. It's tough on her, but we are still together. I have realised I need to stop worrying about how I feel about her so much as it is very linked to my anger. I actually project onto her which is bad. I plan to live my life and spend some time by myself and work on my anger for my ex..


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> Cross-posting from your other thread...
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a wedding gift picked out for them yet?
> 
> I think you should send a couple of these to them...
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Help-Your-Spouse-Heal-Affair/dp/145055332X
> 
> One for each of them. They'll probably need it.
> 
> :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:
> 
> If at all possible, make sure that they open it in front of EVERYBODY.


Actually I had a thought of sending HIM an card wishing him luck. He's going to need it.
lol.


----------



## GusPolinski

poida said:


> Actually I had a thought of sending HIM an card wishing him luck. He's going to need it.
> lol.


She's engaged to OM, right?


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> She's engaged to OM, right?


Yep. A month ago. In Paris of course.

I bet he was told when and where he had to do it so that she can continue her fantasy and pretend that everything is just dandy in the world.

Poor b*stard.


----------



## GusPolinski

I was dead serious about the books, by the way.

I'd even mark it "From Mom"... whatever it takes to get them to open it in front of others.

You could even stash a note on the inside...

"Best of luck on your pending nuptials, as well as the rest of your lives.

I get the feeling that you'll both need these before too long.

Ha! Wh*res.

Go F*ck Yourselves,
You Know Who"

 :smthumbup:


----------



## poida

GusPolinski said:


> I was dead serious about the books, by the way.
> 
> I'd even mark it "From Mom"... whatever it takes to get them to open it in front of others.
> 
> You could even stash a note on the inside...
> 
> "Best of luck on your pending nuptials, as well as the rest of your lives.
> 
> I get the feeling that you'll both need these before too long.
> 
> Ha! Wh*res.
> 
> Go F*ck Yourselves,
> You Know Who"
> 
> :smthumbup:


lol.

Would be funny, but it's rather apt that I hold myself to a higher standard than that.


----------



## GusPolinski

poida said:


> lol.
> 
> Would be funny, but it's rather apt that I hold myself to a higher standard than that.


Point taken.

Omit everything after "too long".


----------



## poida

lol.


----------



## poida

A couple of realisations on the weekend. Something others might find helpful if you are hurting from a divorce.

1. It's OK to dislike your cheating ex. You don't have to like them, and in fact it's OK to hate them. You don't need to forgive or like them to move on. Think of them like a workmate you really dislike. They are just someone you avoid, but you don't worry about them or think about them when you don't see them do you.

2. Everything in life has positive and negative. It is too easy to see everything in a negative way when you are depressed. But it it is only a small jump over the fence to a place where you can see the positive in everything.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Poida*
> A couple of realisations on the weekend. Something others might find helpful if you are hurting from a divorce.
> 
> 1. It's OK to dislike your cheating ex. You don't have to like them, and in fact it's OK to hate them. You don't need to forgive or like them to move on. Think of them like a workmate you really dislike. They are just someone you avoid, but you don't worry about them or think about them when you don't see them do you.
> 
> 2. Everything in life has positive and negative. It is too easy to see everything in a negative way when you are depressed. But it it is only a small jump over the fence to a place where you can see the positive in everything.
> 
> 
> *and in fact it's OK to hate them. You don't need to forgive or like them to move on*.


Sorry I do not agree with your statements above. Hate and unforgiveness will work against you and cause anger and depression any other negative things. Forgiveness will free you from negative emotions such as hate, bitterness, and resentment and will benefit you much more than those you hate.

*Your main issues are with you. Keep working on you and that does not just mean physical. You need to work on your attitude, your emotions, and spirit. Get all the help that you can.*


----------



## turnera

Hate while you need to, to move forward, but keep in mind that it will keep YOU in limbo and in misery. So use it if you have to, but work TOWARD acceptance and even forgiveness - for YOUR sake.


----------



## carmen ohio

poida said:


> Went to counselling last night.
> Seems like am still harbouring a lot of hate toward my ex-wife.
> Also toward my GF simply by feeling "trapped" (nothing she did wrong).
> Both require me to express anger constructively.
> Talking in IC helped.
> I also plan to write a letter to the ex-wife, but not send it.
> 
> *As for the GF. Well I'm very conflicted.*
> *Prior to triggering again, I had my best week with her.
> I had genuine love for her and was feeling great.*
> The way I saw her completely changed. I was happy and guilt free.
> I saw her for who she was inside. Outside she was "pretty" and happy.
> I didn't see her as the most beautiful woman in the world, but it mattered not. I valued her for who she was.
> *After triggering, I literally disconnected. I only saw her physical appearance and to be blunt I didn't like what I saw.*
> My IC has explained that this was anger. Anger that I feel trapped. Anger that I wasn't able to feel love for her all the time. Anger for the constant anxiety and depression I have experienced.
> I hear the calls to let her go.
> But I keep thinking of the weeks leading up to my recent trigger and how happy I was. I was really starting to see this as a long term relationship.
> She is by far the most genuine, open, caring and connected person I have ever met and I love that about her.
> As I said above. *I am incredibly conflicted about what to do. I know I am not in the right place to do right by her at the moment.*
> But it is easy to say break up with her when it isn't you.
> Meeting her has been the best thing that has ever happened to me. It has restored my faith that there are genuinely good people in the world.
> I know that to have the connection we have is a very rare thing. And something in me does not want to give that up.
> *I don't know what to do. Some of me says to let her go. Another part says I am being so stupid and she is the best thing that has ever happened to me.*


poida,

Have you ever told your GF what you've just told us, about your feelings (positive and negative) toward her?

If so, then I don't see that you need do anything other than what you feel like at any given moment. Hang out with her when you want to, ignore her when you don't; as long as she's been warned about the nature of your feelings, it's up to her to decide what she will and won't put up with from you.

But if you have not, then you are doing both her and yourself a great disservice:

- Her, because she's entitled to know how the most important person in her life really feels about her. Not letting her know this is, IMO, not only unethical but cowardly.

- You, because, as indicated above, once you have told her a great proverbial weight will be lifted from you emotional shoulders and you will be free to be yourself. Of course, you may have to be yourself by yourself, as she may dump you when she learns the truth.

I don't buy the excuse that your feelings toward her are the product of _"anger."_ More likely, she just isn't physically attractive enough for you to seriously contemplate a permanent relationship. If that's the case, there's no shame in admitting it. I get the feeling that the cause of your problem is your trying to sweep your true feelings under the rug and, instead, do what you think is the _right_ or _decent_ thing to do.

Better to be honest, with yourself and her. Then you can both make decisions about the relationship with complete information and clean consciences.


----------



## Steve1000

turnera said:


> Hate while you need to, to move forward, but keep in mind that it will keep YOU in limbo and in misery. So use it if you have to, but work TOWARD acceptance and even forgiveness - for YOUR sake.


Wouldn't the final step of indifference be better than forgiving someone who has no remorse and doesn't have any desire to change? 

Off topic: When I was about 20 years old, I was randomly jumped by three or four men. They left me with a long recovery and some permanent head scars. Many years have passed now and I almost never think of them. I never felt any need to go through a process to forgive them. I just accept that they were POS's and the world has some people like that.


----------



## turnera

Forgiveness begets indifference - it removes you from an emotional attachment to that person(s), allowing you to think of them without FEELING good, bad, anything, because you know it had nothing to do with YOU (unless you caused the act, of course).

But most importantly, forgiveness is what you do for yourself. It has nothing to do with anything that happens to the other person. Forgiveness frees you. Helps you. Improves your life.

Forgiveness doesn't REQUIRE the other person to show remorse - if you need that, you are still emotionally attached to that person. You can LET them continue to be a sh*t, it makes no difference to you since you (hopefully) have moved on and they no longer affect your life.


----------



## poida

turnera said:


> Hate while you need to, to move forward, but keep in mind that it will keep YOU in limbo and in misery. So use it if you have to, but work TOWARD acceptance and even forgiveness - for YOUR sake.


That is absolutely the goal.

I just couldn't sit with the pressure of HAVING to forgive her BEFORE I could move on with life.

Now I have taken that pressure off, I see a time where I will have moved on emotionally and will have the opportunity to forgive and forget.

I just needed to take the pressure down.


----------



## poida

carmen ohio said:


> poida,
> 
> Have you ever told your GF what you've just told us, about your feelings (positive and negative) toward her?
> 
> If so, then I don't see that you need do anything other than what you feel like at any given moment. Hang out with her when you want to, ignore her when you don't; as long as she's been warned about the nature of your feelings, it's up to her to decide what she will and won't put up with from you.
> 
> But if you have not, then you are doing both her and yourself a great disservice:
> 
> - Her, because she's entitled to know how the most important person in her life really feels about her. Not letting her know this is, IMO, not only unethical but cowardly.
> 
> - You, because, as indicated above, once you have told her a great proverbial weight will be lifted from you emotional shoulders and you will be free to be yourself. Of course, you may have to be yourself by yourself, as she may dump you when she learns the truth.
> 
> I don't buy the excuse that your feelings toward her are the product of _"anger."_ More likely, she just isn't physically attractive enough for you to seriously contemplate a permanent relationship. If that's the case, there's no shame in admitting it. I get the feeling that the cause of your problem is your trying to sweep your true feelings under the rug and, instead, do what you think is the _right_ or _decent_ thing to do.
> 
> Better to be honest, with yourself and her. Then you can both make decisions about the relationship with complete information and clean consciences.


Absolutely Carmen.

We did talk about this on Saturday and I just said I wasn't feeling it at the moment and that I wasn't sure what the future would bring us, but that we have a lot of positives in our relationship and that I hope it might work out.

No, I did not say I wasn't physically attracted to her sometimes because well...... can you imagine? She would be so hurt.

And the problem is that most of this is my issues. I really just don't know how much of it is me blocking myself and how much is true lack of physical attraction. I really don't.

And literally every other aspect of our relationship (including chemistry and sexual attraction) is totally amazing. I find it all a bit baffling to be honest.

And is why I am still here.

I do think about breaking up with her sometimes though.

Tough times.


----------



## poida

Steve1000 said:


> Wouldn't the final step of indifference be better than forgiving someone who has no remorse and doesn't have any desire to change?
> 
> Off topic: When I was about 20 years old, I was randomly jumped by three or four men. They left me with a long recovery and some permanent head scars. Many years have passed now and I almost never think of them. I never felt any need to go through a process to forgive them. I just accept that they were POS's and the world has some people like that.


I would say that is good enough. If I get to total indifference, I'll be happy with that. I really can't imagine a time where I completely forgive someone who was so incredibly selfish and hurtful.


----------



## ThePheonix

carmen ohio said:


> I don't buy the excuse that your feelings toward her are the product of _"anger."_ More likely, she just isn't physically attractive enough for you to seriously contemplate a permanent relationship. If that's the case, there's no shame in admitting it.


Poida my man, since there is sexual attraction, are you sure you ain't looking for a "permanent" girl to use to impress other men. I've seen plenty of men go after and temporarily get the looker only to end up miserable with a high maintenance chick they have to pander to, overlook cheating (aka a R) and eventually in the trash pile with other exes. While you’re busy looking for the perfect hottie, you may miss the less than perfect girl who could make you perfectly happy.


----------



## poida

ThePheonix said:


> Poida my man, since there is sexual attraction, are you sure you ain't looking for a "permanent" girl to use to impress other men. I've seen plenty of men go after and temporarily get the looker only to end up miserable with a high maintenance chick they have to pander to, overlook cheating (aka a R) and eventually in the trash pile with other exes. While you’re busy looking for the perfect hottie, you may miss the less than perfect girl who could make you perfectly happy.


No, it's not about perception. I'm not that shallow.

Its simply that I look at her and I'm not loving it at the moment.

I can't tell you if that is permanent or temporary while I'm still working on myself and starting to open my heart up again.

I know I still have issues to work on I'm working hard to give myself a chance to actually fall for this woman.

Being in love with her is something I really really want and I know I would have an amazing life with her.

I guess I'm scared that I will eventually find out that " I'm just not that into her".

Something tells me it's not that simple. Which is why I am still with her. I hope it all works out.


----------



## ThePheonix

Sounds to me like you're working too hard to make love happen Dawg. Lighten up, take some pressure off yourself, and go with the flow. You're being like the guy who's so obsessed with getting to the destination, he cannot enjoy the trip. What going to happen if this time next week or next month you are still ambivalent about it? Most likely you and her will still be breathing. The truth is you can have an amazing life with her if you like the hell out of her, she's your best friend, and youre sexually compatible. In fact that will beat loving her but not being compatible, not really enjoying friendship, doing things together, getting bored, ect., like many marriages. Tell me I'm wrong.


----------



## tom67

ThePheonix said:


> Sounds to me like you're working too hard to make love happen Dawg. Lighten up, take some pressure off yourself, and go with the flow. You're being like the guy who's so obsessed with getting to the destination, he cannot enjoy the trip. What going to happen if this time next week or next month you are still ambivalent about it? Most likely you and her will still be breathing. The truth is you can have an amazing life with her if you like the hell out of her, she's your best friend, and youre sexually compatible. In fact that will beat loving her but not being compatible, not really enjoying friendship, doing things together, getting bored, ect., like many marriages. Tell me I'm wrong.


Like I told you I'm with-in my opinion- am with someone I think is not quite as attractive as my ex or so I thought.
Please take your time my man.


----------



## Steve1000

turnera said:


> Forgiveness doesn't REQUIRE the other person to show remorse - if you need that, you are still emotionally attached to that person. You can LET them continue to be a sh*t, it makes no difference to you since you (hopefully) have moved on and they no longer affect your life.


We all agree that the endgame is indifference and you're probably right that forgiveness can help many people get to that point. I think I'm just not wired that way and I tend to "let it go" without contemplating forgiveness. One could argue that I've never truly reached indifference, but I completely feel that I have and that's good enough for me. :）


----------



## poida

ThePheonix said:


> Sounds to me like you're working too hard to make love happen Dawg. Lighten up, take some pressure off yourself, and go with the flow. You're being like the guy who's so obsessed with getting to the destination, he cannot enjoy the trip. What going to happen if this time next week or next month you are still ambivalent about it? Most likely you and her will still be breathing. The truth is you can have an amazing life with her if you like the hell out of her, she's your best friend, and youre sexually compatible. In fact that will beat loving her but not being compatible, not really enjoying friendship, doing things together, getting bored, ect., like many marriages. Tell me I'm wrong.


That's good advice and quite true.

After a failed marriage (Ok, she cheated, but it still feels like a fail), I suppose I put myself under a lot of pressure to make sure the next one is right. Perfect even I suppose.

I know that there is no such thing as a perfect woman.

I will try to chill out about that need for a perfect woman. 

It's really not fair on her is it. Actually I see now it is kind of cruel.


----------



## poida

tom67 said:


> Like I told you I'm with-in my opinion- am with someone I think is not quite as attractive as my ex or so I thought.
> Please take your time my man.


Thanks for the thoughts. 

Right from the start of the relationship when I still wasn't ready to develop feelings for someone new, I was pushing myself to start to feel love, to fall in love. 

As time went on, I realised I was going to take some time to be truly ready, I started to really stress out about feeling guilty I wasn't in love with her and that it was going to take time before I could commit.

And now, as I'm just coming out of the hurt and becoming ready, I stress about how long it has taken, about being with her for so long, whether she is "perfect" enough to marry, about her strong desire for kids (tick tock), her desire for marriage, a house, a life with me.... etc etc.... Aggghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a huge amount of pressure I've been putting myself under to meet her needs now I think about it. And in reality those thoughts put me even further away from meeting her needs.

It haven't really looked out for my own needs properly have I. I guess until I look after my own needs, I won't be able to meet anyone else's whole heartedly.

OK, so it's time to chill out a bit and enjoy the ride. :toast:

ps I will note that things were really great on our European holiday - just the two of us and no distractions.


----------



## MattMatt

As far as your GF is concerned you might perceive her as a perfect woman for you.

But wait! Didn't you have one of those before? And what happened then? Yeah! She cheated on you!

Psychologically you might be waiting for the other shoe to fall, wondering when this perfect woman will cheat on you?

A special gift from your ex-wife.

It will take time for you to get beyond what she did to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

I trust my GF more than I have ever trusted anyone. 
We have a true connection and we always sense in each other how we are feeling. Like we don't even need to talk. 
I know when to just hold her without saying anything and she knows when to put her arm around me (or preferably put my head in her breasts....lol...)

I really didn't have that with my wife. I guess I just thought that was normal in marriage. Sad really.


----------



## Satya

You're gonna do what you're gonna do, but I have been hoping you would for a moment pause your enlightened self discovery journey to face that you are being dishonest with your gf. You may like her for 80% but there's 20% you're not crazy about. If your gf was my daughter or good female friend, I'd staunchly encourage her to get out of such a relationship because it's not a mature, "ready" relationship. You're a work in progress,which is perfectly fine and you own that much in your posts, but it's unfair to her. 

Since your gf knows nothing of how you really feel, you assume all her power of choice in deciding for herself (should she choose to do so) that she deserves a man that loves her deeply for everything. Right now, you are pretending to be that man. 

If I'd learned straight away that my SO wasn't crazy about me physically, but otherwise loved my company or what else of value I brought to the relationship, I'd be sad but that'd be it for me, life would carry on and I'd not hold any hard feelings because we were just incompatible. I'll not settle for less than a man that loves me for all of me, so I'll take a hit to the ego gladly if it means I'm not wasting my time. 

However, if the same happened and he strung me along for longer than needed before the truth emerged (and I always believe it's a matter of when truth happens, not if), I'd be pissed off and find him to be a selfish man, and then I'd have to go work on myself because I'd wonder if all men would do that to me in the future, because I was suckered into a lie. In other words, I'd be damaged and the time and effort required to undo that damage is relative to the inner resilience of the person. I've healed once from an 8 year marriage that had turned into a complete lie... And I believe my eh H really did love me for some things, but it was still a lie that wasted at least 5 years (that I know of).

You can be sure that men looking for a real love will, if smart and experienced, avoid a damaged woman. That's what you'd do, right? 

You can disagree with me, ignore this, think I'm way off, whatever you choose. It remains my truth based on what I see and know and I'll leave it at that. 

If the script was flipped and she wasn't all into you... Would you truly not want to know? I'd think with your experience, you'd have more self respect than to accept any less than her all.


----------



## farsidejunky

Satya said:


> You're gonna do what you're gonna do, but I have been hoping you would for a moment pause your enlightened self discovery journey to face that you are being dishonest with your gf. You may like her for 80% but there's 20% you're not crazy about. If your gf was my daughter or good female friend, I'd staunchly encourage her to get out of such a relationship because it's not a mature, "ready" relationship. You're a work in progress,which is perfectly fine and you own that much in your posts, but it's unfair to her.
> 
> Since your gf knows nothing of how you really feel, you assume all her power of choice in deciding for herself (should she choose to do so) that she deserves a man that loves her deeply for everything. Right now, you are pretending to be that man.
> 
> If I'd learned straight away that my SO wasn't crazy about me physically, but otherwise loved my company or what else of value I brought to the relationship, I'd be sad but that'd be it for me, life would carry on and I'd not hold any hard feelings because we were just incompatible. I'll not settle for less than a man that loves me for all of me, so I'll take a hit to the ego gladly if it means I'm not wasting my time.
> 
> However, if the same happened and he strung me along for longer than needed before the truth emerged (and I always believe it's a matter of when truth happens, not if), I'd be pissed off and find him to be a selfish man, and then I'd have to go work on myself because I'd wonder if all men would do that to me in the future, because I was suckered into a lie. In other words, I'd be damaged and the time and effort required to undo that damage is relative to the inner resilience of the person. I've healed once from an 8 year marriage that had turned into a complete lie... And I believe my eh H really did love me for some things, but it was still a lie that wasted at least 5 years (that I know of).
> 
> You can be sure that men looking for a real love will, if smart and experienced, avoid a damaged woman. That's what you'd do, right?
> 
> You can disagree with me, ignore this, think I'm way off, whatever you choose. It remains my truth based on what I see and know and I'll leave it at that.
> 
> If the script was flipped and she wasn't all into you... Would you truly not want to know? I'd think with your experience, you'd have more self respect than to accept any less than her all.


QFT.


----------



## turnera

poida said:


> And now, as I'm just coming out of the hurt and becoming ready, I stress about how long it has taken, about being with her for so long, whether she is "perfect" enough to marry, about her strong desire for kids (tick tock), her desire for marriage, a house, a life with me.... etc etc.... Aggghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> It's a huge amount of pressure I've been putting myself under to meet her needs now I think about it. And in reality those thoughts put me even further away from meeting her needs.
> 
> It haven't really looked out for my own needs properly have I. I guess until I look after my own needs, I won't be able to meet anyone else's wholeheartedly.


Ah, now you're getting it. Does it makes sense now why we stress not dating for quite a while after a marriage ends?

And I will posit that, while you SAY you are perfect together, I say you reached for something to fill a hole in you and are STAYING out of fear/guilt/feeling of a debt owed to her. Not a good start.


----------



## ThePheonix

poida said:


> Thanks for the thoughts.
> 
> And now, as I'm just coming out of the hurt and becoming ready, I stress about how long it has taken, about being with her for so long, whether she is "perfect" enough to marry, about her strong desire for kids (tick tock), her desire for marriage, a house, a life with me.... etc etc.... Aggghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> It's a huge amount of pressure I've been putting myself under to meet her needs now I think about it. And in reality those thoughts put me even further away from meeting her needs.
> 
> It haven't really looked out for my own needs properly have I. I guess until I look after my own needs, I won't be able to meet anyone else's whole heartedly.


Poida, I'm going to give you something that should be self-evident but is so ignored by men its almost unknown. But its the secret of a happy relationship. It is revealed in the fact that most thread starting men have the same story, i.e., how much they love their wayward wives, how much they want her back, how could she do them like she did knowing how much they love her, and on and on. It is simple but yet profound. Here it is. Men mistakenly believe the perfect woman is one they want rather than one that wants them. You don't look for a relationship with a woman because you're head over heals in love with her, wanting to meet all her needs, have strong desire to walk five miles through a blinding snowstorm just the hear her say hello over a telephone. You want a woman that thinks you hung the moon, are the cats pajamas, is happy when she meets your needs, believes you're the best thing that ever happened to her, would rather watch a movie with you rather than GNO, believes your happiness is a priority, wets her pants when she sees you coming.


----------



## farsidejunky

ThePheonix said:


> Poida, I'm going to give you something that should be self-evident but is so ignored by men its almost unknown. But its the secret of a happy relationship. It is revealed in the fact that most thread starting men have the same story, i.e., how much they love their wayward wives, how much they want her back, how could she do them like she did knowing how much they love her, and on and on. It is simple but yet profound. Here it is. Men mistakenly believe the perfect woman is one they want rather than one that wants them. You don't look for a relationship with a woman because you're head over heals in love with her, wanting to meet all her needs, have strong desire to walk five miles through a blinding snowstorm just the hear her say hello over a telephone. You want a woman that thinks you hung the moon, are the cats pajamas, is happy when she meets your needs, believes you're the best thing that ever happened to her, would rather watch a movie with you rather than GNO, believes your happiness is a priority, wets her pants when she sees you coming.


This is the direction I took. The problem is that the relationship is glued together by their love. The only threat is when they realize you are not all they thought. Then the relationship is severely threatened. 

Mine started out like that, evolved like that, and is still recovering to return to that. We are mostly there.

The lesson is that if someone believes that you to walk on water, they often also expect you to never get wet. That is a VERY tall order.


----------



## Steve1000

ThePheonix said:


> You don't look for a relationship with a woman because you're head over heals in love with her, wanting to meet all her needs, have strong desire to walk five miles through a blinding snowstorm just the hear her say hello over a telephone. You want a woman that thinks you hung the moon, are the cats pajamas, is happy when she meets your needs, believes you're the best thing that ever happened to her, would rather watch a movie with you rather than GNO, believes your happiness is a priority, wets her pants when she sees you coming.


While true, many women, especially from previous generations, were also advised to choose a guy that "loves you more than you love him". While it can lead to a stable future, he or she needs to be sure that their spouse never learns that there is actually an imbalance in the relationship. It is not a happy realization to discover that your spouse married you mostly because you loved them, and while they care about you, it seems to be a very fine line away from settling.


----------



## ThePheonix

You've got to manage it guys. Don't get neck deep into a relationship without them knowing who you really are. I even pretended to be a bigger azz hole than I really am (that took some effort) to see if she could make it through boot camp. She finally told me the only way she was going anywhere is if I looked her in the eye and told her I didn't want her.
Don't worry about the imbalance, to your favor of course, in the relationship. If she is truly your best friend, you'll love her more, long term, then you could ever love someone whose main asset is their looks and ends up thinking of you as the guy she's stuck with because of the kids.


----------



## poida

All good comments guys. Thanks.

There is a big difference between a real informed and healthy opinion of how attracted you are to someone and an opinion formed by someone who has been very hurt, is still healing and is somewhat intent on finding a reason why the relationship shouldn't go full steam ahead. It is easy to project "ugly" onto someone wanting to be close to you when you are hurt and not ready. I have seen proof of this myself in the way that my GF's face has changed over the last year depending on my emotions at the time. 
This knowledge and the fact we have an otherwise perfect relationship is the ONLY reason I have stuck with it and worked my arse off resolving my own issues ASAP. Sure it has taken longer than I expected but I am making real progress now and things with my GF are getting better by the day.

Many of you make a point about being dis-honest to her. That may be in some respects, but I guarantee you that your OP also saw physical flaws in you too. The point is that those small flaws really don't matter. I understand and accept that. I know that from my first marriage. Fact is, the physical flaws I see in my GF are small and I know will become totally irrelevant, is they did in my marriage. I am not so stupid to be with my GF if I didn't see enough positive physical attributes. I understand that what flaws I do see have been blown right out of proportion by projecting ugly (a crude way of explaining it, but there it is).

Today I am in a place of real comfort. I feel great about us. She looked beautiful this morning.

I also made a really big step forward yesterday.
I was riding my motorbike home thinking about my ex-wife getting re-married when a wave of relief swept over me.
I thought, you know what, I dont hold any real hate or grudge against my wife any more.
I am surprised this came so immediately and so surely. In fact it is hard to believe.
I slept on it and I still feel that same way.
I have decided to send them a card on their wedding day wishing them the best of luck.
I feel pretty damn good actually.
Wow.


----------



## happyman64

Good for you Poida.

You know what I find interesting is when the BS has trouble moving forward in life post marriage.

Sometimes they get hung up on anger, remorse or revenge.

They still blame the Ex wayward for the unhappiness they are experiencing.

But most often the wall that is blocking them from being happy post marriage is themselves.

Sometimes they cannot forgive their ex. Sometimes they cannot forgive themselves. And that animosity stops them from seeing all the "good" in their lives that is right in front of them.

You are getting it.

Be happy.

And be grateful for what is right in front of you.

Great post my friend.

HM


----------



## poida

Oh my. 

I just left a therapy session having realised that after my mum "abandoning me" during a divorce as a child, some part of me may have intentionally married a woman who was somewhat emotionally unavailable!!!!!!!!! Apparently I felt safer feeling that way. I was able to project an imagined emotional interaction onto the blank canvas that was my wife. 

It does make sense and it does feel easier to accept that I got exactly what I asked for in my marriage, and that I should not be surprised at how it ended.

It also really makes me value the REAL emotional connection and interaction that my GF and I have.

Oh well...... One day at a time.


----------



## farsidejunky

If that woman is still with you after all of this, you don't need a therapist to tell you she is a catch.


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## bfree

It's truly amazing how many issues we carry over from childhood. Just "knowing" what you now know is going to help you immeasurably going forward.


----------



## ThePheonix

poida said:


> some part of me may have intentionally married a woman who was somewhat emotionally unavailable!!!!!!!!! Apparently I felt safer feeling that way. I was able to project an imagined emotional interaction onto the blank canvas that was my wife.


Truth is that most women and men are attracted to someone like their parents. So don't feel like you're the only one that let your childhood screw up your romantic life. Sometimes there's a lot of space between what a person think they want and what a person needs. Don't let the old, "she's independent and strong" get mixed up with "she's really aloof and emotionally unavailable".


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## turnera

The book Getting The Love You Want describes this perfectly. You ought to read it, poida - the first half at least. The second half is how to improve your marriage, armed with the knowledge.

Basically, we seek out a partner who is like our parent who hurt us, so that the partner can turn out to NOT be harmful like our parent and thus fix our hurt.

Getting the Love You Want: A Guide for Couples (20th Anniversary Edition) by Harville Hendrix | 9780805087000 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble


----------



## lostmyreligion

turnera said:


> The book Getting The Love You Want describes this perfectly. You ought to read it, poida - the first half at least. The second half is how to improve your marriage, armed with the knowledge.
> 
> Basically, we seek out a partner who is like our parent who hurt us, so that the partner can turn out to NOT be harmful like our parent and thus fix our hurt.
> 
> Getting the Love You Want: A Guide for Couples (20th Anniversary Edition) by Harville Hendrix | 9780805087000 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble


I have to read this book. 

I met my wife the old fashioned way - drunk in a bar. 

She was bombed and after tapping me on the shoulder and asking me for a light, asked me on a date. I said "Sure I'd love to - what's your name?" 

She got embarrassed and handed me her business card at which I started to laugh. She got a little angry, but before she could leave I said "Wait" and handed her my DL. 

She said "What? Everyone takes a sh!tty picture on their license."

I said "No, look at the name".

Turns out her last name is the same as mine (it's not a very common one). Her father's first and last name are both the same as mine as were her grandfather's. 

Her brother's as well and his middle initial. 

Topping it off, I learned that her ex husband's birthday was the same day as mine.

Yah, I thought about hooking up a motion detector to a tape loop playing "Dueling Banjos" to go off every time someone came in for the wedding.

She survived a massive amount of psychological abuse at the hands of her full blown narcissist mother and the same at the hands of her enabling, alchoholic, narcissistic father, with a smattering of physical abuse to top it. 

You know, little things like beating the crap out of her just before her first day of high school because she had the temerity to ask why one of his many irrational dictates was so important.

She has always said that I "saved" her.

Of course the problem with this is that it the feeds the White Knight Syndrome I've found I'm prone to. Opens me up to accepting all sorts of abuse at the hands of the crazy wounded sparrow I've apparently saved...


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## poida

turnera said:


> The book Getting The Love You Want describes this perfectly. You ought to read it, poida - the first half at least. The second half is how to improve your marriage, armed with the knowledge.
> 
> Basically, we seek out a partner who is like our parent who hurt us, so that the partner can turn out to NOT be harmful like our parent and thus fix our hurt.
> 
> Getting the Love You Want: A Guide for Couples (20th Anniversary Edition) by Harville Hendrix | 9780805087000 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble


I'll look into it. Ta.


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## poida

And wow you guys weren't kidding when it was going to take 2 years to be settled again.

It's taken me 22 months to get to a point where I generally feel happy every day.


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## CatJayBird

turnera said:


> The book Getting The Love You Want describes this perfectly. You ought to read it, poida - the first half at least. The second half is how to improve your marriage, armed with the knowledge.
> 
> Basically, we seek out a partner who is like our parent who hurt us, so that the partner can turn out to NOT be harmful like our parent and thus fix our hurt.
> 
> Getting the Love You Want: A Guide for Couples (20th Anniversary Edition) by Harville Hendrix | 9780805087000 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble


I just started reading this book....I hope I get some enlightenment on my own issues. Good luck, Poida!


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## poida

Probably time for an update. 

Here I sit at a bar in Amsterdam feeling sorry for myself. The woman who I care for is at home hurt and in pain.

Over the last few months I have begun to realise the inevitability of the ending of my marriage and that I am in fact glad it ended. I thought that realisation was going to give me the opportunity to grow the relation ship with my girlfriend. 

Unfortunately, I still live in a place where I am not in love with her. I love her but I am am not in love.

I still question the whole feeling of love and in love. Is it a lie? Is it real? Am I still not ready? Am I just not that into her? Is the physical attraction thing a real and permanent problem?

It really is a tragic situation to me. I can't imagine ever having such a perfect connection with someone in this world. To have a deep sexual connection, identical goals, values and most importantly, a deep and open line of communication about, well, everything. 

Some who have read this thread will remember my initial comments abouty GF, in particular, my lack of physical attraction for her face. 
Sadly(as many predicted), I have learnt that this feeling has not dissipated and in fact appears to be the sole thing that holds me back from really going forward with the relationship. 

My counsellor says I project ugly into her but I'm not so sure. The fact I have been unsure for 2 years tells me
It is time to give it a break and stop battling my own emotions and primal feelings.

I don't pretend to understand why physical attraction plays such an important part in my life but it is time
I cut her loose. It is the right thing to do and many would say a year overdue.

I tried, I really tried. I battled against a theory that shallow physical perception could not control me. That inner beauty, emotional connection and sexual compatibility could and would prevail. 

I have failed her. It is unfair. I still find
Myself yearning for her contact, her voice, her company, her touch, but that is selfish. 

She loves me. She has said so many times. We have been here several times, she has said she can't leave me. 

The responsibility to do what is very difficult lies with me. I am going to have to do it. 3 weeks until I get home. I think it would be kinder if I did it when I returned, face to face.

Your kind thoughts and advice welcomed in this sad time.


----------



## Tall

You have concluded, that it must end.

You can end it with grace, not end it, or end it without grace.

The first is the most difficult choice, with highest reward.
The second is easier, but a slow death
The third is the easiest, but not an option that is available to you.

(I have been where you are)


----------



## poida

If you have been where I am, what do you make of my conclusions about physical attraction?
Thanks.


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## bfree

Are you so certain that your need to be with a "pretty" woman is not due to something lacking in yourself? Are you trying to compensate for your own doubt by having a "hottie" on your arm?


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## naiveonedave

poida said:


> If you have been where I am, what do you make of my conclusions about physical attraction?
> Thanks.


Just my opinion, but attraction is not something you can control, at least not to any significant degree. When I was ~20, I had the same situation. Really liked the girl, enjoyed her company, but the physical attraction just wasn't there. Attraction is critical in a long term relationship. It doesn't make you shallow, it makes you human.

You will find someone else. Your exGF was probably a rebound relationship, because you probably really needed female companionship. Now you are past that. Best wishes


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## turnera

I do understand that need for attraction. I worked with a young woman at my last job and there was just something about her that I found unattractive, and no matter how much I tried to tell myself I was being ridiculous, every time I looked at her, that was what I thought of. And God knows I'm not much to look at, so I feel for other people having to be around me. 

It is what it is.

That said, you know we've long felt you shouldn't have picked up a girlfriend so soon, that it wouldn't work, because it's your BRAIN that's attributing the bulk of your feelings about her looks. Why? Because you simply hadn't dealt with all the crap floating around in your brain and your heart. That's why I always tell people to just BE ALONE for at least a year after breaking up. Let your mind subconsciously deal with all that crap as you go about your day. 

You sought out your girlfriend because she made you feel good, in the moment, something you desperately needed at the time of your upheaval - you needed to rebuild your ego, and she did that, she validated you. And as time went on, you no longer needed that ego-stroking, so your 'need' for her has diminished, and now she's just another person.

Not to mention it's been two years so your PEA chemicals/lust for her is pretty much out of your system.

Do the right thing. Move on. Be gentle. Thank her.


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## poida

Thanks Turnera. I agree things could have been different had we met in better circumstances but evens then, probably not in the longer term.
Your advice is sound. Nothing more to be said. Thanks.


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## Lostinthought61

i recommend you tell her a white lie in order to let her down easy, and spare the physical attraction issue as the reason, i would simply tell her that you aren't over your ex in the sense she damaged you, and the pain she left with you has basically paralyzed your ability to move on for now and that you need to end it with her.


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## sungazer

poida said:


> My counsellor says I project ugly into her


I profoundly apologize, but IMHO it's a total BS: explanation of unclear with unknow. Projection or not, this is what you see and then feel. 

I didn't read all 90+ pages, just about 3 or 4, but IMHO what you have for your GF is appreciation. And then, some acute guilt, too. It's not love, though is a very strong mix of emotions. 

And while it's more than nothing, but it's not enough to sustain a long term relationship. Attraction, as shallow and meaningless as it appears, has a very important role to play - it bonds people together. As long as people attract each other, they have a very effective mechanism to overcome a lot of obstacles, problems and disagreements. As soon as that feeling is gone (or never was there), the connection works only while everything is good, but at the first serious disagreement, it will break. Attraction actually draws people together, and prompts them to try to think alike, to try to work on compromises, to try and see issues from the other person's point of view, etc... Appreciation will eventually wear out and get replaced with resentment. 

When I say "attraction", I do not imply beauty. I mean that feeling of za-za-zoo that you feel towards certain people or certain type. More often than not, attraction (for people past the age of 25) hides in manners, voice, smell... - things more subtle than appearance. Although, appearance remains to be important. 

If you don't have the za-za-zoo, then your relationship is doomed. Set her free gently - don't waste her time. Go find the za-za-zooooo!!! 

And BTW, za-za-zoo after a painful divorce is going to be much more colorful, bright, happy and exciting than ever before.


----------



## bandit.45

Poida you are not shallow or vain. Either a partner fires off all your rockets or they don't...that is just how it is. This GF may be the most wonderful woman in terms of personality and wanting to please you, but something about her is just not attractive to you. You cannot fight against your genes man. Something in your bones is keeping her from looking good to you. 

I had a very close female friend in high school. We were really tight and are still good friends to this day. She was the most popular, desired girl in high school. I had my buddies always asking me how I could hang out with her, be best friends with her and not want to sleep with her. They all thought she was the hottest thing on two legs. 

I couldn't see it. I just was not in any way attracted to her at all. I could stand back and objectively judge her...she had a great body, nice tits, great ass, and her face was cute....but not beautiful. The whole of her, for whatever reason, was just not desirable to me at all. And she still is not to this day. I used to wonder if maybe there was something wrong with me, that maybe all my friends were hip to the truth of her beauty and I was deficient in some way. It really bugged me. But it didn't change anything. I was never attracted to her at all. 

Just understand that if a pretty face is the first qualifier, then you are narrowing your chances of finding a woman who is good on all fronts.


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## Satya

I already said how I felt earlier this year (August I think) and I agree with Turnera. I could see this coming and now you're here. I hope it has been a life lesson. 

Treat her kindly when you let her go, then let her go totally and don't play yo-yo with her affections...Even if she clings, which I hope she does not do, for her sake. Not saying you would do this, but 2 years is long enough to create some strong tethers. Cut them and carry on.


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## Healer

poida said:


> If you have been where I am, what do you make of my conclusions about physical attraction?
> Thanks.


I currently have a FWB that I really get along with well. We have great sex, she's cool, smart, easy going, same taste in music...but as with you, I am held back from making it more than it is because I simply don't find her to be pretty enough. I feel bad about that, shallow. And I have been with other women who are prettier but the sex wasn't as good, and I didn't like them nearly as much. It sucks. I wish it weren't the case, but I feel if I force myself past this, it would be just as wrong as if I forced past other, less superficial things, like personality or whatever.

You can't force it. Physical attraction is a huge thing, and if it's not there, it's not there. I feel ya bro. I'm likely passing up a great woman and relationship because she doesn't meet my standards of "beauty". I feel like an *******.


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## Healer

bfree said:


> Are you so certain that your need to be with a "pretty" woman is not due to something lacking in yourself? Are you trying to compensate for your own doubt by having a "hottie" on your arm?


Yikes, this makes sense to me.


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## Healer

bandit.45 said:


> Just understand that if a pretty face is the first qualifier, then you are narrowing your chances of finding a woman who is good on all fronts.


This is me. You are right - but I don't know how to get passed it.


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## carmen ohio

poida said:


> . . . I don't pretend to understand why physical attraction plays such an important part in my life but it is time I cut her loose. It is the right thing to do and many would say a year overdue . . .
> 
> I think it would be kinder if I did it when I returned, face to face . . .


Yes, it is the right thing to do, yes, it is overdue and, yes, you should tell her face-to-face.

But think very hard about how you are going to explain your decision. After all this time and considering all she's done for you, you owe her a gentle and compassionate parting.


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## turnera

Healer said:


> This is me. You are right - but I don't know how to get past it.


Work on your self esteem.


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## poida

Hi guys,
Healers comments resonate with me. I know the correct and proper response from counsellors et al is that there is something wrong with the mans self esteem, and no offence this is something that women often tend to struggle to understand as women's love values are different. 
I am away for work for 3 weeks and the writing is on the wall at the moment. She knows it, just the way I have been talking. I am trying to be compassionate and break up when I get home but she knows me too well. She is upset and Angry at the moment and Whilst difficult
Is good for her to help detach.
It's been very hard and being my best friend and my lover, I want to console her. But that is no longer my role.

Anyway what I wanted to say was that this space has led me to realise that many times. The issue of physical attraction is a real and genuine thing that cannot be overcome. I very much wish it was as I am about to break up with the most amazing woman. It is not self esteem, it is not scared of being alone, it is what it is, I see her face and I'm not in love. 
For her sake I plan to be clear and calm and break up with her. I have never done this so I am going to find it hard no doubt.


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## poida

Hi guys,
Healers comments resonate with me. I know the correct and proper response from counsellors et al is that there is something wrong with the mans self esteem, and no offence this is something that women often tend to struggle to understand as women's love values are different. 
I am away for work for 3 weeks and the writing is on the wall at the moment. She knows it, just the way I have been talking. I am trying to be compassionate and break up when I get home but she knows me too well. She is upset and Angry at the moment and Whilst difficult
Is good for her to help detach.
It's been very hard and being my best friend and my lover, I want to console her. But that is no longer my role.

Anyway what I wanted to say was that this space has led me to realise that many times. The issue of physical attraction is a real and genuine thing that cannot be overcome. I very much wish it was as I am about to break up with the most amazing woman. It is not self esteem, it is not scared of being alone, it is what it is, I see her face and I'm not in love. 
For her sake I plan to be clear and calm and break up with her. I have never done this so I am going to find it hard no doubt.


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## ThePheonix

Xenote said:


> i recommend you tell her a white lie in order to let her down easy, and spare the physical attraction issue as the reason, i would simply tell her that you aren't over your ex in the sense she damaged you, and the pain she left with you has basically paralyzed your ability to move on for now and that you need to end it with her.


Poida my man, tell me that Xenote recommendation would be actually be a white lie. Tell me you ain't wanting to ditch your girlfriend so you try to gen things back up with your ex.


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## poida

No. I'm over her. 
And btw to show her true colours she got married 2 months ago, 2 months after divorce. They deserve each other.


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## poida

Hi Guys, 
Thought it was worth an update as I haven't been here for months.
I didn't report on what happened when I got home from overseas.
Basically as soon as I say her, I ran to her and kissed her. I missed her so much.
I suppose the main reason I haven't reported since then is I have been trying not to over analyse everything. I wanted to spend some time just monitoring my emotions through the swings and roundabouts rather than stress out each time and lose the ability to observe what triggers me.
What have I learnt? 
1. Whilst I swore black and blue about not needing a hot girl for others in public, I do. Its an ego boost I seek for lack of confidence.
2. I can actually feel the very moment I swing from happy/content to scared/sad in my relationship and it is often centred around hurt and pain in the past. For example, if my GF were to bring up something like buying a house together casually, I might trigger. Same as for marriage, kids etc etc.
3. When I trigger, I most definitely project emotion onto my GF. ie I project ugly and that in turn triggers more doubt.

I have learnt to ride the waves of emotion much better simply through giving myself space to OBSERVE and learn.

Anyway, I am very happy with my GF and things are going really well and I can certainly imagine spending my life with her.


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## farsidejunky

Healthy introspection, Poida.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

So you don't need a hot girl after all?


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## TAMAT

Poida,

Glad you are in a good place.

You know with your ex's new marriage, you should maybe send your ex a little framed something to put on her wall, a saying, a bible verse, a picture of a puppy, perhaps.....something more like...... 

*
My perspective is from that of the OW who became the new wife. I hope this helps someone.

You will get to be responsible for destroying the life of another woman. You will get to be responsible for destroying the lives of all children involved. No, children are not resilient. They are sponges and take in everything around them whether they are capable of processing it or not. And when they are not able to process their world being shattered and all the conflicting messages about right and wrong, you will get to deal with all their issues and mistakes and anger as they grow up. You will have to know all the while that whatever is happening is a direct result of your selfishness. If the child fails at school, can’t control their anger, becomes promiscuous, falls into addictions, can’t maintain good relationships of their own you get to know in the back of your mind and deep in your soul that you are responsible for what molded that child. Whether you admit it or not, you WILL know. You will not be able to fix this; it will not work out, smooth over, or ever be okay. Even if you look like the Cleavers on the surface it is under there bubbling and will come out. Don’t think you are special and you will escape this result.

Maybe right now you are in a place where you are in deep denial about the children and you don’t give a crap about the BW. Let me appeal to your sense of selfishness then and tell you what you personally are going to suffer in the years to come…

You are marrying a cheater. Someone who didn’t like what they had at home so they went looking for something better. Or maybe you offered him something better? It doesn’t really matter who started it, who lied more, it doesn’t even really matter if you were tricked into a relationship not knowing he was married at first. Your consequences will be the same. You now have a spouse who gave up one family and chose you and yours. Feels great right? Think again. How long do you think it will take before you stop feeling like a prize?

The minute things go wrong, and face it, in all marriages there are these times, he is going to be looking at you and wondering if you were worth it. And you will feel it. Even if he doesn’t say it right out. He is going to realize that this marriage requires just as much work as the old one did and you are not nearly as perfect in real life as he thought you were and he is going to be angry for what he has sacrificed for you. Now you get to be insecure and feel like you are always fighting to be worth it to him.

You are going to be labeled as the [censored] for the entire rest of your life. No matter what changes or personal revelations you come to, you will be the [censored] that wrecked a home and stole a husband. There will be innumerable family conflicts over this. You are likely to have his kids hating your guts forever. This means that every holiday, school concert, soccer game, big family event like graduations and weddings, and grandkids (yes, it will last that far and long) will be sources of conflict instead of happy times.

You will probably not be invited to a lot of things that your spouse should be attending with his children. You may show up anyway, asserting your position as the new wife. But it will be a conflict. You spouse will have to over and over choose between you and his original family. He is going to resent you for this. You are going to get so tired of constantly being the center of conflict and so tired of all the hate directed at you and no one is going to sympathize with you. When you do impose yourself where the BW and her children and extended family and friends are you will feel the scarlet letter that you wear burning in your chest no matter how high you try to hold your head. I promise you, you will. You and your stolen spouse will fight over this more than you can imagine in the years to come.

And guess what?! When he starts to pull away from you and works late more, or isn’t insatiable in bed with you anymore, or cuts his hair a new way you are going to be terrified. You are going to be terrified because you know exactly what he might be doing next. You are going to be suspicious probably before he actually even does anything because you already know he is untrustworthy.

Chances are he is going to cheat again too. Except this time on you. Now, you get to feel the pain of being a BW doubled by the pain of realizing exactly what you did to someone else. The guilt and shame on top of your already devastating pain from being cheated on will be unbearable. Now listen to this closely NO ONE IS GOING TO CARE!! You are going to hear and know that you should have known better and have the old adages about cheaters thrown in your face over and over. You will not be able to come somewhere like these boards for support because they are going to crucify you! You will be all alone with your pain and your heartache with no one to blame but yourself.

Do not think you are special. DO NOT THINK IT WON’THAPPEN TO YOU!!!!!!!!!! The stats are overwhelmingly high. No one gets married thinking that their spouse will cheat. No one. I promise you are not different or better somehow.

Occasionally an affair partner will grow a conscience and want to be a good person and here is what happens…

Now, let’s say that you make changes in your heart and your life. Let say you find God or in whatever way it comes to you, you realize that you have done something horrendous. Okay, now you actually do care about those kids and that BW. Well too bad. You can’t fix it. Yes, God will forgive you if you repent. Not many others will. And you will have one heck of a time trying to forgive yourself. You will feel sick and ashamed all the time. You will cry many bitter tears.

You will not be able to look at your spouse and feel the same way you once did. All of your memories of when you first met, your first kiss, the early days of your relationship will be tainted. All of those memories that are supposed to be sweet will be sour. You will not be able to enjoy them because you know that whole time it was wrong, wrong, wrong! What are you left with? Not much.

You are going to try to offer apologies, you are going to try to figure out what you can possibly do to make amends and there are going to be no easy answers. You will be told by many that you can’t repent and stay married. You will be told by just as many that if God has forgiven you that another divorce would be just another sin. You will make yourself crazy over this because you want to do the right thing for once in your life and you have put yourself in a situation where it is impossible to know what that it.

Also, if you are one of the few who have this attack of conscience at some point down the road, you are still going to be dealing with all the same stuff above that the unremorseful affair partner is dealing with except it’s probably going to hurt you even more because you now genuinely care. Too bad no one will think you are sincere or trust your words. Why should they, remember what you did?? Of course you do, now go cry some more as if it will help.

There are no time machines people!! You are making a mess bigger than you can ever clean up!!

There is really a lot more I could say about how this is going to play out but this is already getting very long.

Like I said, this is from my perspective but just change the pronouns and it is the same for anyone entering into an adulterous relationship. Man or woman, whether you are the WW, WH, AP, it’s going to end in ruin.

You have been warned.

And if anyone out there is currently involved in waywardness and wants to ask me something, fire away! I will answer any and everything asked if it will get you to stop what you are doing and reconcile your family before it is too late.

Unfortunately if you are already married to your AP don’t bother asking me. I can’t help you because I cannot help myself. I live in the ruins of my own creation. You like me should have seen the light sooner. Sorry.

To the BS out there who may read this, I can only hope that knowing that your spouse is not going to be happy and their AP is not going to be happy helps you feel a little bit vindicated. I promise you that even if they look like the picture of happiness on the outside they are not. They have a cancer eating their souls. You can have a better life. They won’t.

NewCreation2011*


----------



## JohnA

@TAMAT great post. 


@poida it seems like you have become your ex and your GF has become you. The exact reasons are different but the end result is the same. Go back are re-read her responses to you. 

At one point you discussed actions vs change in who we are. Your action from this day forward towards your ex is NC. An Ex is an EX for a reason. Any contact will lead to an attempt on your part to hook up. F-102 posted an outline on how this happens. 

Emotional affair*


Right now, the texts/conversations may very well be just two old friends catching up but soon, if left unchecked, may very well morph into:

Their lives since they parted
Their relationships since they parted*
Their families
Their spouses
You
How you're an excellent father
How you're a great husband
How you're a wonderful guy
Your job
How your job keeps you busy
How your job keeps you away
How she sometimes feels a little lonely when you're away
How she sometimes feels a little overburdened at home
How she sometimes feels a little taken for granted
How she feels that you don't ALWAYS listen to her
How she feels that you don't ALWAYS understand her
How she feels that sometimes you're just "not there" for her
How, okay... you're not ALWAYS such a wonderful guy
How she loved hearing from him again
How she looks forward to his texts/calls/e-mails now
How she feels young again
How she feels appreciated again
How she feels attractive again
How it's so nice to have someone who just LISTENS to her again
How it's been so, so long since you made her feel that way
How her eyes have now been opened
How she now realizes what she truly wants and needs
How she now realizes that you could NEVER give her that
How insensitive you can be some times
How you can be a real jerk sometimes
How she wonders if they would have stayed together
How she now realizes that she never really loved you
How she now realizes that she really loved him all along
How she ever could have fallen for a jerk like you
How you're the biggest a++hole she's ever known
How you're standing in the way of her true happiness
How you ruined her life
How she made a big mistake marrying you
How she made an even bigger mistake letting him go
How now she sees that they were really meant to be together
How she desperately has to get away from you
How she's definitely going to leave you
How she's talking to divorce lawyers
How they're going to live happily ever after...


----------



## JohnA

As to looks. I could write a book about why I cannot be bothered with young hot chicks or even older but still very hot chicks. To be crude all they know is how to grind. When you find yourself thinking how great it would be to wake up next to them, start the day with them and they feel the same- that is the hot that lasts a lifetime.

Also why is your GF still with you ? Seriously. 

I going to suggest you ask her to go to a MC with you, even before you propose or just move in together. Work at uncovering hidden assumptions and hidden needs. A friend going though a hard patch once said "it should be twice as hard to marry as it is to divorce. At some level he is right.


----------



## JohnA

Oh, don't say I could never do that with my ex. Really? Talk to me in 2026 and then in 2036.


----------



## poida

You guys need to cut back on the cool-aid.


----------



## poida

jld said:


> So you don't need a hot girl after all?


You know what JLD, once my heart was capable of opening up again, it really became so completely and utterly irrelevant.

I guess what took me so long to realise is that it really did take until recently for my heart to open up at all.

I kept pushing and pushing and pushing myself to FEEL something and all the time blamed my surroundings for that not happening.

I knew all along she was an amazing person and perfect for me and that is why I kept at it. A lot of people told me it was too early to be in a relationship and I needed time. That is definitely true, but you know what, to get back on the bike and open your heart, you also need to practice and practice. I don't regret anything I have done because I knew in my heart she was amazing and it would happen.

Our relationship has taken a massive, massive step forward over the last 3 weeks and I am the happiest I have ever been.

My girlfriend is absolutely beautiful and sexy to me and I love her dearly. 

And today, I bought an engagement ring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Woo hoo!!!

I feel great about it and I know we will have a great life together. No second guessing.


----------



## ThePheonix

poida said:


> I knew all along she was an amazing person and perfect for me and that is why I kept at it.


Glad to hear its working out for you my man. I was wondering for awhile if you'd wise up before jettisoning what maybe the best woman you could possibly have. Sometimes a guy wants perfect "hottie" and overlooks what they perceive as the imperfect woman who could make you perfectly happy. That's among the most stupid mistakes a man can make.


----------



## happyman64

Good for you Poida.

Go have a great life. You deserve it.

So does your GF.

HM


----------



## G.J.

Congratulations

Ill lift a brew to you over the weekend:toast:


----------



## Chuck71

Heard of your thread by way of Kiv's. Couldn't bear to read most of the first 50 pages.

Glad to see your growth. GF sees to be a nice woman from what you have posted. Hope things continue to improve.

As for the hottie-ness. Lil story.....

I met my 1st love in HS. We dated for couple years. Drop dead gorgeous. Came with issues....

Being a teen I did not weigh these properly..... my pop did. He never said to dump her but he did

explain how people like her are. She came from CSA, her dad made her quit HS due to "too much learnin"

was physically, emotionally violent to his W, 1st love and her two younger brothers.

She wanted me to quit college so we could get M and start a career at a "Jack-in-the-Box."

She really did love me, wanted to live with me, get M but her main concern was "a room mate to share the

bills with." She wanted to run as fast as she could.... away from her childhood and family. Truth told... ya can't blame her

She realized I was not going to quit college "to meet her impending need" so..... not long after.... it was over.

Yeah.... it hurt like he!!. Within six weeks, she was M. I wasn't God's gift to women but this guy.... was a cross between

Jed Clampit and a pork rind. 18 months later.... ran into her. "Let's meet, I want to have sex with you, I miss you."

Yes she was M, as she was about every 18 months she tried to re-appear. As soon as she learned I was getting

a D... friend request from her. Now M to H #2. "Let's meet, I want to have sex with you. I miss you."

1st love did me a favor by breaking up with me 25 years ago. She chases me to this very day.

"The only time in my life I seemed happy was when I was with you." Probably true..... have to ask her.

1st love and your XW.... are alike..... they will run the rest of their lives. They refuse to address their past.

She defriended me recently since I refuse to sit around waiting on her call. Most other guys would..... I won't.

I know her on the inside, as you do your XW. Our storybook love story died 25 years ago. She refuses to accept this.

Your XW may very well end up copying this behavior some day. If so... be prepared.


----------



## poida

Hi Guys, 
Quick update here.
Well we got married 2 weeks ago and we have been back into normal work life after a week on honeymoon on a tropical island.
Things are really great and I'm falling more in love with my wife every day.
Everything is great and it's such a selfless marriage. I'm very happy and I know this one is going to last because we can work through problems rationally and with each other's interests in mind.
We are going to try for kids straight away and we are both very excited. I still trigger a bit from my last pregnancy-miscarriage-divorce experience but it's time to get livin'.
I'm so glad we ended up together. I was so worried about hurting her. Especially with the flak I copped here. I get it now.
So, thank you all again for your advice.

What I wanted to elaborate a bit on "knowing when you are ready for another relationship" a bit for those who have been cheated on, in D or those whop have started dating again.

Knowing when is tough. I would liken it to "you don't know what you don't know". I would also say it isn't an instant change (well it wasn't for me). After 3 years i would honestly say that my heart is still opening up. There will be many times where you will think you are ready. You may think you are ready but get frustrated as to why you aren't "feeling more" for the person you are with. Personally, I projected onto my girlfriend for a log time. I projected ugliness. It was in fact my inability to love looking to pass blame. It made me very anxious and I lost a lot of sleep about it.

With the benefit of hind sight I would have taken advice and not started a relationship with anyone for at least 2 years. Spent my time travelling and furthering my career, and a lot of surfing.

So, for those who are in my position 3 years ago, don't worry. It will all work out. You will meet someone, but don't start until you have had a lot of time to find yourself.

Oh, and how do I feel about my EX W now? Weill i still think she is a stupid B and I still hate her for what she did. i don't think i will ever forget what she did to me. The lying after we were supposed to be in R hurt the most. The cheating I could have forgiven and in the right circumstances I think it is something that a partner truly committed to repairing a relationship should be afforded. Generally though i just see here as the past now. She doesn't live in my present anymore and you know what, I'm fine with that. It keeps me on my toes.

Cheers all!


----------



## VladDracul

Goes back to what I've said all along; forget um and replace um with a newer model.


----------



## poida

VladDracul said:


> Goes back to what I've said all along; forget um and replace um with a newer model.


It's not about "them" in life my friend. It is not about what you get in return.

Life is about your own personal growth and love for yourself. 

Love is giving some of yourself. It is your gift to someone else and how that makes you feel.


----------



## MattMatt

Poida, I am so happy for you both!


----------



## notmyrealname4

I feel sorry for your new wife.

Hope I'm wrong.


----------



## poida

notmyrealname4 said:


> I feel sorry for your new wife.
> 
> Hope I'm wrong.


That was random. Care to explain?


----------



## notmyrealname4

poida said:


> That was random. Care to explain?


I remember your story. I remember your comments about your (then) gf.'s body, and it's imperfections. How she just didn't cut it for you. But she was a sweetheart of a gal. I seem to remember she was in her early 30's, and the biological clock was ticking.

I respect your honesty about not finding your gf/wife super physically attractive. A lot of people would lie to themselves.

But, when all is said and done, you don't find her physically attractive. Physical attraction doesn't "grow" on people. It's either there or it isn't. That's been stated pretty clearly on the thread.

So, what happens when you're out in public with her and you see the kind of women you *really* wish you could have. If your like my H., you'll avert your eyes. See, I noticed him rubbernecking at super pretty girls all the time. I was in tears a couple of times when I was really young. So he told me, that although he wanted to look at them, out of respect for me; he wouldn't.

And I'll touch briefly on a four letter word: Porn. If you are going to mb. to images of your "favorite" kind of women; please make sure to clear your browser history. And, don't mb. to porn when she might walk in and see you. You know, like she's waiting in bed for you-- and you stay up late getting off to porn that lets you pretend to fck the type of women you really get turned on by.

IOW, I've walked in shoes similar to your gf./wife.

If you're going to make this marriage work, you're going to have to make her feel that she's the most beautiful woman in the world to you. So, by the very nature of your real feelings about her appearance; you're going to have to lie, pretend, and cover up.

Hope it all works out. Yes, I'm bitter. Bitterness is truth plus experience.


----------



## poida

notmyrealname4 said:


> I remember your story. I remember your comments about your (then) gf.'s body, and it's imperfections. How she just didn't cut it for you. But she was a sweetheart of a gal. I seem to remember she was in her early 30's, and the biological clock was ticking.
> 
> I respect your honesty about not finding your gf/wife super physically attractive. A lot of people would lie to themselves.
> 
> But, when all is said and done, you don't find her physically attractive. Physical attraction doesn't "grow" on people. It's either there or it isn't. That's been stated pretty clearly on the thread.
> 
> So, what happens when you're out in public with her and you see the kind of women you *really* wish you could have. If your like my H., you'll avert your eyes. See, I noticed him rubbernecking at super pretty girls all the time. I was in tears a couple of times when I was really young. So he told me, that although he wanted to look at them, out of respect for me; he wouldn't.
> 
> And I'll touch briefly on a four letter word: Porn. If you are going to mb. to images of your "favorite" kind of women; please make sure to clear your browser history. And, don't mb. to porn when she might walk in and see you. You know, like she's waiting in bed for you-- and you stay up late getting off to porn that lets you pretend to fck the type of women you really get turned on by.
> 
> IOW, I've walked in shoes similar to your gf./wife.
> 
> If you're going to make this marriage work, you're going to have to make her feel that she's the most beautiful woman in the world to you. So, by the very nature of your real feelings about her appearance; you're going to have to lie, pretend, and cover up.
> 
> Hope it all works out. Yes, I'm bitter. Bitterness is truth plus experience.


Aha, yes well bitterness sounds about right.

Well I can tell you that you are wrong. 

I might also question whether your perception (or whether what you have been told) about your looks are the ACTUAL reason for how you have been treated in the past. 

And I can categorically say that ALL MEN, no matter how what their wife looks like will rubber nick at other women. It's natural and it is part of our DNA. It doesn't mean they don't find their wife sexy.

Perhaps you haven't experienced projection before but it is very powerful. It would make any woman ugly.

I can also tell you that a man can (and does) fall in love with the woman's body that he is with. I know I did with my first wife and I have this time too. I just love my wife's curves now and I want to jump her all the time. That juicy butt and her sexy waist and ripe, plump breasts. I see her face so completely different than I did before. She is really beautiful and I just think "sexy and cute" when I look at her face. She looked amazing at our wedding.

Don't feel sorry for her. We are in love and I love her body and I don't regret a thing. I'm very happy I persisted with what I knew was a great thing.


----------



## LucasJackson

poida said:


> Aha, yes well bitterness sounds about right.
> 
> Well I can tell you that you are wrong.
> 
> I might also question whether your perception (or whether what you have been told) about your looks are the ACTUAL reason for how you have been treated in the past.
> 
> And I can categorically say that ALL MEN, no matter how what their wife looks like will rubber nick at other women. It's natural and it is part of our DNA. It doesn't mean they don't find their wife sexy.
> 
> Perhaps you haven't experienced projection before but it is very powerful. It would make any woman ugly.
> 
> I can also tell you that a man can (and does) fall in love with the woman's body that he is with. I know I did with my first wife and I have this time too. I just love my wife's curves now and I want to jump her all the time. That juicy butt and her sexy waist and ripe, plump breasts. I see her face so completely different than I did before. She is really beautiful and I just think "sexy and cute" when I look at her face. She looked amazing at our wedding.
> 
> Don't feel sorry for her. We are in love and I love her body and I don't regret a thing. I'm very happy I persisted with what I knew was a great thing.


If earlier posts hadn't already done it, this one sealed the deal. This entire story was fiction. 100%


----------



## poida

LucasJackson said:


> If earlier posts hadn't already done it, this one sealed the deal. This entire story was fiction. 100%


Yeah, you are right. I was just bored. .... Seriously?

You've got every right to your opinion, but your dissmissivness of my very painful journey, all the hard work I've done, all the counselling, all the self reflection and the courage to get back on the horse, all while being completely honest on this forum is is quite hurtful.

But, I know it's the truth and that's all I care about. I'm very happy.


----------



## Chuck71

Seems as if people who do not agree with the OP and their remarks.... are now labeled as trolls with

made up stories. Pink Floyd's video "Run like He11" comes to mind.

Post away Poida


----------



## Atonement

poida said:


> Yeah, you are right. I was just bored. .... Seriously?
> 
> You've got every right to your opinion, but your dissmissivness of my very painful journey, all the hard work I've done, all the counselling, all the self reflection and the courage to get back on the horse, all while being completely honest on this forum is is quite hurtful.
> 
> But, I know it's the truth and that's all I care about. I'm very happy.


Ignore all the bitter folks Poida. I've been there....it takes quite a bit of courage to be honest and lay it all on the line for a forum of random strangers. Good luck man.


----------



## farsidejunky

Good update, Poida.

Even if you were a troll (which I don't believe), you would have carried on for what...two years?

Cherish your wife, brother. She sounds like a keeper.


----------



## poida

poida said:


> I would agree on that info but I left out a few bits that made my point a bit clearer. I have made it clear I am not waiting any more.
> 
> Her most recent response is better.
> We are having a night off (she is going to stay with a friend that I trust and talk to), and we are having dinner tomorrow night to catch up to talk about us and plan some counselling. It's the biggest step yet.
> I'm not sure anybody here would walk away from that in the same situation.
> I can thank everybody here for giving me the balls to force the situation to progress.
> I know there is still more brute force required and that will come.


LOL. I just read this post from early 2014 and I found out later she hooked up with the scumbag that very night. And when I called her girlfriend, she lied and said she was there but didn't want to talk to me.

Oh the lies! How some people can live with themselves is amazing!!

Wow.


----------



## poida

farsidejunky said:


> Good update, Poida.
> 
> Even if you were a troll (which I don't believe), you would have carried on for what...two years?
> 
> Cherish your wife, brother. She sounds like a keeper.


Thanks mate. She's awesome.

Marriage is so much better when you know what is important and I value everything I went through to attain that clarity.


----------



## Chuck71

If you can actually feed everyone a line for 3 years, you're missing your calling as an author. 8>)


----------



## lordmayhem

So you finally married her? Good for you. I remember when this thread first started.


----------



## becareful2

I haven't read all 95 pages yet, but can anyone tell me how Poida's exwife fares now?


----------



## Chuck71

becareful2 said:


> I haven't read all 95 pages yet, but can anyone tell me how Poida's exwife fares now?


Like Trampoline ...... WWBs XW....... who earned the nickname for hopping bed to bed

but every time she got into a jam, guess who she reached out for.... 

Take out the line, she sees what she is


----------



## poida

becareful2 said:


> I haven't read all 95 pages yet, but can anyone tell me how Poida's exwife fares now?


After I bled myself dry 3 times trying to make R work and save the relationship I finally said enough and ended it.

After that she obviously gave the bloke she was cheating with the ultimatum to marry her immediately or it was over. He caved and married her. They were married within 2 months of me calling an end to the madness. Disgusting. She also had very large parties for her engagement, pre-wedding and post wedding, making sure to invite ALL of my friends. She also declared that she would be spending a lot of time at MY sporting club, which made me leave for another to make new friends.

I think her true colours showed during this period - a truly selfish, scared, vulnerable and gutless woman.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I'm happy things worked out so well for you. 

You've come across as quite an arrogant you know what in some of your posts


Glad to see you've moved beyond that and are doing well with your wife.

May you have the kind of marriage you never have to come to TAM to b!tch about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm happy things worked out so well for you.
> 
> You've come across as quite an arrogant you know what in some of your posts
> 
> 
> Glad to see you've moved beyond that and are doing well with your wife.
> 
> May you have the kind of marriage you never have to come to TAM to b!tch about.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Arrogant or simply not feminised? I question whether society too easily allows men to be shamed for being masculine these days.

It's one of the reasons why this site sees so many relationship breakdowns in my opinion.


----------



## lifeistooshort

poida said:


> Arrogant or simply not feminised? I question whether society too easily allows men to be shamed for being masculine these days.
> 
> It's one of the reasons why this site sees so many relationship breakdowns in my opinion.


No, I'm going with arrogant and entitled. Posting about whether your gf is hot enough for you is arrogant and entitled and suggests one with an extremely high opinion of themselves.

That has nothing to do with being emasculated. 

It's one thing to just not be attracted to someone...that happens. But to muse on whether your partner is hot enough is another level. 

As I said, I'm happy you and your wife have made it and are happy. 

I see the whole thing as part of your healing process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## estes

Almost 100 pages and the title and the first post says it all.

She cheated on you, she runs from every relationship shes ever had, she'd leave if you want her too but if she does you know she won't come back, and she wants her space and barely talks to you.

It's OVER.

Nothing left to see here. 

Anything you do is akin to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. 

Don't waste your time.


----------



## lifeistooshort

estes said:


> Almost 100 pages and the title and the first post says it all.
> 
> She cheated on you, she runs from every relationship shes ever had, she'd leave if you want her too but if she does you know she won't come back, and she wants her space and barely talks to you.
> 
> It's OVER.
> 
> Nothing left to see here.
> 
> Anything you do is akin to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
> 
> Don't waste your time.


You should read the thread. It's long over and he's remarried.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## estes

lifeistooshort said:


> You should read the thread. It's long over and he's remarried.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, well thanks for the update. Now there's definitely no need to read the thread!


----------



## poida

lifeistooshort said:


> No, I'm going with arrogant and entitled. Posting about whether your gf is hot enough for you is arrogant and entitled and suggests one with an extremely high opinion of themselves.
> 
> That has nothing to do with being emasculated.
> 
> It's one thing to just not be attracted to someone...that happens. But to muse on whether your partner is hot enough is another level.
> 
> As I said, I'm happy you and your wife have made it and are happy.
> 
> I see the whole thing as part of your healing process.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Look, perhaps I take being called arrogant as being quite insulting simply because that really isn't who I am at all, and never have been.

You really have it all a bit arse about.

If you read my thread carefully, I continually fret at not being attracted to some aspects of my GF, and more accurately, I fret about not understanding WHY I'm not.

Having an attitude that you are hotter than someone vs not understanding why you aren't attracted to them (and projecting the whole time) are two completely different things. One is unrealistically high opinion of one's self and the other is being scared, vulnerable and insecure.

I don't expect you to understand just how powerful projection is, nor do I expect you to understand just how my insecurities drove me to conclude that to not be abandoned in my next relationship, a hot girl was the obvious answer. Both thought processes are twisted and confused, but they are most definitely NOT ARROGANT. 

Don't accuse me of that again. It's not fair on other guys who experience the same issue.


----------



## poida

estes said:


> Almost 100 pages and the title and the first post says it all.
> 
> She cheated on you, she runs from every relationship shes ever had, she'd leave if you want her too but if she does you know she won't come back, and she wants her space and barely talks to you.
> 
> It's OVER.
> 
> Nothing left to see here.
> 
> Anything you do is akin to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
> 
> Don't waste your time.


Lol. It's a log thread.....


----------



## lifeistooshort

poida said:


> Look, perhaps I take being called arrogant as being quite insulting simply because that really isn't who I am at all, and never have been.
> 
> You really have it all a bit arse about.
> 
> If you read my thread carefully, I continually fret at not being attracted to some aspects of my GF, and more accurately, I fret about not understanding WHY I'm not.
> 
> Having an attitude that you are hotter than someone vs not understanding why you aren't attracted to them (and projecting the whole time) are two completely different things. One is unrealistically high opinion of one's self and the other is being scared, vulnerable and insecure.
> 
> I don't expect you to understand just how powerful projection is, nor do I expect you to understand just how my insecurities drove me to conclude that to not be abandoned in my next relationship, a hot girl was the obvious answer. Both thought processes are twisted and confused, but they are most definitely NOT ARROGANT.
> 
> Don't accuse me of that again. It's not fair on other guys who experience the same issue.


Whatever, tell yourself what you want. 

You're too involved to see things clearly, and I can only go on what you've posted 

Don't worry about me accusing you of anything more.....I will not be back here.

You should think about what it says about you that you automatically get your back up and go into defense mode. This won't serve you well.

I guess us women just can't understand what it's like to get hurt or have our egos bruised.

By that logic your wife will never understand your either. Sounds like a recipe for a great marriage. 

Also sounds like you really haven't learned much. 

Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## poida

lifeistooshort said:


> Whatever, tell yourself what you want.
> 
> You're too involved to see things clearly, and I can only go on what you've posted
> 
> Don't worry about me accusing you of anything more.....I will not be back here.
> 
> You should think about what it says about you that you automatically get your back up and go into defense mode. This won't serve you well.
> 
> Sounds like you really haven't learned much.
> 
> Best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was childish. And you think I'm the one who hasn't grown up.

Just because I don't praise your presumptive and insulting comments (like a good and obedient male should) you throw the toys out of the pram. 

I'm the one who HAS grown up here hun. I know who I am. 

What is your resistance to my comments? Bitter about something?

Bye!!


----------



## estes

poida said:


> How do I move on without another lover/partner in my life?
> Perhaps that is the point I am missing. I don't need a lover/partner to move on.
> Sounds like more counselling to me.


I'm missing why you are questioning how you can move on without another lover/partner and then you followup by saying you don't need another partner/lover in your life. 

You sound rather confused.


----------



## poida

Because I was one very confused soul.
I had a lot to learn about myself, my past, relationships, love, independence, selflessness etc.
It's easy to forget that 2 years have passed since that comment and I've had hundreds of counselling sessions, a lot of self reflection and a great deal of reading, learning and talking with close friends.

I read quote that now and cringe as well.

I've grown immeasurably. In fact a couple of my friends told me so recently. They in fact said I was a pretty self involved before. Something I don't deny at all. I have great relationships with my close friends now.


----------



## swallow555

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm happy things worked out so well for you.
> 
> *You've come across as quite an arrogant you know what in some of your posts
> *
> 
> Glad to see you've moved beyond that and are doing well with your wife.
> 
> May you have the kind of marriage you never have to come to TAM *to b!tch about.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What kind of person do you have to be, to come this thread and post these kind of comments ?

This guy posted a happy update about him getting married and being deeply in love with his wife and this is the reaction he gets ? 

I can only imagine that it hit a nerve because of your own insecurities. Being physically attracted to your partner is a basic necessity for a relationship. Were you ever in relationships where your partner did not find you attractive ? 

It is obviously hurtful to get dumped because you are not attractive enough but it is much better than being married to someone who treats you as a second choice they settled for.


----------



## poida

swallow555 said:


> What kind of person do you have to be, to come this thread and post these kind of comments ?
> 
> This guy posted a happy update about him getting married and being deeply in love with his wife and this is the reaction he gets ?
> 
> I can only imagine that it hit a nerve because of your own insecurities. Being physically attracted to your partner is a basic necessity for a relationship. Were you ever in relationships where your partner did not find you attractive ?
> 
> It is obviously hurtful to get dumped because you are not attractive enough but it is much better than being married to someone who treats you as a second choice they settled for.


Yeah, I touched a nerve obviously.

The childish response was also pretty indicative about her personality and opinion of men.

She's still hurting I'd guess.


----------



## notmyrealname4

swallow555 said:


> What kind of person do you have to be, to come this thread and post these kind of comments ?
> 
> This guy posted a happy update about him getting married and being deeply in love with his wife and this is the reaction he gets ?
> 
> I can only imagine that it hit a nerve because of your own insecurities. *Being physically attracted to your partner is a basic necessity for a relationship.** Were you ever in relationships where your partner did not find you attractive ? *
> 
> It is obviously hurtful to get dumped because you are not attractive enough but it is *much better than being married to someone who treats you as a second choice they settled for.*



poida is in one right now, with his new wife, whom he does not find particularly attractive.

He has another thread about this issue. That is why people are questioning some of his current posts:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/279329-obsessed-physical-appearance.html


Your last sentence could now be applied to poida's new wife.

I would be overjoyed to be proved wrong. But it's not my life and I'll never know.

I *do* wonder what poida's wife would think if she knew of the lukewarm feelings he had/has toward her face and body. Would she have married him still?


----------



## bandit.45

Will she let you put a paper sack over her head before having sex?


----------



## bandit.45

One positive thing about having a fugly woman...the chances of her cheating on you are a lot lower.


----------



## just got it 55

estes said:


> Oh, well thanks for the update. Now there's definitely no need to read the thread!


You could learn something 

podia has gone 15 rounds and is still standing after being knocked on his as$ many times

Live well podia

55


----------



## poida

notmyrealname4 said:


> poida is in one right now, with his new wife, whom he does not find particularly attractive.
> 
> He has another thread about this issue. That is why people are questioning some of his current posts:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/279329-obsessed-physical-appearance.html
> 
> 
> Your last sentence could now be applied to poida's new wife.
> 
> I would be overjoyed to be proved wrong. But it's not my life and I'll never know.
> 
> I *do* wonder what poida's wife would think if she knew of the lukewarm feelings he had/has toward her face and body. Would she have married him still?


Listen guys, I don't expect this to be easy to accept based on my previous (now long ago) comments but everything I have said on pages 94 and 95 are truth.

I now see my wife as a beautiful woman with sexy curves, a juicy butt and a really cute face with gorgeous eyes, a beautiful nose and really cute freckly cheeks, oh and sexy thick wavy hair.

I didn't have any intention to marry her if my opinion of her appearance remained unchanged. In fact after I went away for work and returned I told her I really wasn't sure I wanted to continue the relationship and we had a couple of weeks apart. In fact I made myself so anxious about the situation that I vomited on the plane on the way home.

I just wasn't ready to open up yet and my head was doing everything in it's power to prevent me from getting hurt again. 

Until you experience how your mind can project ugliness (whether that be physical or personality), you just can't understand just how powerful it is. I am telling you how I see my wife now is day and night compared to how I saw her before. 

The second part of the story is that once my heart opened up and became able to embrace love and all other aspects of her and our relationship, the importance I placed on looks (the only measure I had previously) became so totally irrelevant.

So, in a relatively short period of time, not only did the importance of looks diminish dramatically, but I also saw her as being beautiful.

It was at that point that my love for her blossomed and after a period of stability I proposed.

So, I'm fine with the critical comments here as that is what the site is about - QUESTION EVERYTHING, but I can tell you I'm very happy and I think my wife is beautiful.


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## poida

bandit.45 said:


> Will she let you put a paper sack over her head before having sex?


Lol. Oh Bandit, if it wasn't you, I'd almost take offense.

LOL!!!!!!!


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## notmyrealname4

bandit.45 said:


> One positive thing about having a fugly woman...the chances of her cheating on you are a lot lower.


Yeah, same could be said about having a man with a very small penis.


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## notmyrealname4

@poida


I hope I am absolutely wrong; and that your emotional transformation is deep and authentic and life changing.

I obviously have painful experiences with this issue; so it doesn't take much to set me off.

I wish you and your wife the best.


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## poida

notmyrealname4 said:


> @poida
> 
> 
> I hope I am absolutely wrong; and that your emotional transformation is deep and authentic and life changing.
> 
> *I obviously have painful experiences with this issue; so it doesn't take much to set me off.*
> 
> I wish you and your wife the best.


I sensed that. 

I hope my story gives you some confidence in your future.

Thanks for the well wishes. I know we are going to have a great life together. I love her dearly and we are incredibly compatible people.


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## Jacksgirl37

Given your feelings about my situation, you may find it inappropriate for me to lend you my advice. But something that has helped me a lot is Affair Recovery dot com. There is a free 7 day relationship bootcamp that you both do together. My WS and I are on day 4. Maybe see if she will try that with you. It is a start and maybe she might be more inclined to try counseling for herself or together. Also, Samuel, from Affair Recovery, does a video blog on YouTube that is AMAZING! Good luck!


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## poida

Jacksgirl37 said:


> Given your feelings about my situation, *you may find it inappropriate for me to lend you my advice.* But something that has helped me a lot is Affair Recovery dot com. There is a free 7 day relationship bootcamp that you both do together. My WS and I are on day 4. Maybe see if she will try that with you. It is a start and maybe she might be more inclined to try counseling for herself or together. Also, Samuel, from Affair Recovery, does a video blog on YouTube that is AMAZING! Good luck!


Lol, yeah I do.

This advice couldn't be more strange.


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## Jacksgirl37

poida said:


> Jacksgirl37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Given your feelings about my situation, *you may find it inappropriate for me to lend you my advice.* But something that has helped me a lot is Affair Recovery dot com. There is a free 7 day relationship bootcamp that you both do together. My WS and I are on day 4. Maybe see if she will try that with you. It is a start and maybe she might be more inclined to try counseling for herself or together. Also, Samuel, from Affair Recovery, does a video blog on YouTube that is AMAZING! Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, yeah I do.
> 
> This advice couldn't be more strange.
Click to expand...

Well, at least it was not rude or hurtful.  Good luck in your communication skills with her.


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## Chuck71

notmyrealname4 said:


> Yeah, same could be said about having a man with a very small penis.


A long, long time ago in a galaxy far far away...............

GENDER WARS


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## notmyrealname4

bandit.45 said:


> Will she let you put a paper sack over her head before having sex?





bandit.45 said:


> One positive thing about having a fugly woman...the chances of her cheating on you are a lot lower.





notmyrealname4 said:


> Yeah, same could be said about having a man with a very small penis.





Chuck71 said:


> A long, long time ago in a galaxy far far away...............
> 
> GENDER WARS





I added in bandit's INITIAL inflammatory remarks, you know, in the interest of fairness in the "gender wars"

Interesting how you chose to ignore both of those; and just use my response to one of them.

Interesting; but not surprising.


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## bandit.45

notmyrealname4 said:


> Yeah, same could be said about having a man with a very small penis.


True. But he can turn off the lights and wear a 7" strap on. 

There is no quick cure for ugly. Take it from me. A baboon's ass has more pleasing aesthetics than my mug, but I make up for it by being a great cook and engaging conversationalist.


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## notmyrealname4

bandit.45 said:


> True. But he can turn off the lights and wear a 7" strap on.
> 
> *There is no quick cure for ugly. Take it from me. A baboon's ass has more pleasing aesthetics than my mug, *but I make up for it by being a great cook and engaging conversationalist.


People who have to go into great detail about how ugly they are; usually aren't. They *do* have a weird need to berate themselves for some reason.

No plastic sex appendages attached to a guy for me, thanks. I'd rather use a dildo on my own, with the lights on.


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## Chuck71

How's life treatin ya?


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## poida

Chuck71 said:


> How's life treatin ya?


Hi All, 

It's been a long time since I was last here and plenty of life lessons have been learnt.

A few observations 2 years later;

1. On the very odd occasion I do reflect on the past, I still wonder what the hell it was my ex-wife was thinking when she chose to cheat on me and in many ways take take steps to leave me. I still think we had a pretty good marriage. Certainly not worth one leaving at the time. 

2. I now know she wasn't satisfied due to her desperate need for a father figure, which was a role I grew out of as the relationship went on. I expect that was the main reason for her ending the marriage. No matter, the total inability for her to rationally discuss issues in our lives would have ended it eventually. 

3. I was unknowingly becoming passive aggressive as a result of the lack of ability to communicate leading up to the cheating. That couldn't have helped. I consider that something that I should have recognized and done something about. 

4. I suppose my experiences will always leave me with a little slice of uncertainty in my life in respect to women and marriage. All I can conclude is that some women just put less value on marriage as a commitment. I watched a sex and the city sitcom the other day and it now makes me puke. I didn't think much of it back in the day when we both watched it, but that show (and may similar shows) is TOXIC to women. They absorb that sh*t and it warps their perception on marriage. Second/Third wave feminism has a lot to answer for. Many women are miserable as a result. Thank god I am married to a very conservative wife who loves her role as a mother, wife and lady of he house.

5. My experiences have let me to better understand men and women's needs in life and the things that women value in a relationship. I am now better positioned to deliver on those needs.

6. I suppose I'm still inherently a bit selfish in many ways. Sometimes I agree to do things with the guys that burn up most of the weekend when I know my wife craves quality time. But I know it and I'm aware of it and strive to be a better person every day. I see positive male role models now and strive for that.

7. All concern around my new wife's looks (refer old post) have become irrelevant. I'm attracted to my wife and we still have great sex. Her personality and integrity is now MUCH more important to me than anything else. We have been married 18 months and it's been great. It is so amazing being with someone who can actually talk through issues of concern. Such communication skills will be invaluable in our future.

8. I have a son! Tom is 11 weeks old and doing great. Thank god it's my first kid as I can see just how hard it would be to deal with kids after a D.

9. If I had a friend who was in the same position as me (a wife who cheated and wasn't willing to do EVERYTHING IN HER POWER to R), I would have no hesitation to recommend D. I also no longer like to call it Reconciliation. People need to realize that on many levels a cheater has already left the relationship when they cheat. To get back together is to form a new relationship. Ive learnt to respect those who choose to get back together as there is a whole spectrum of relationships out there and everyone deserves to do as they wish. For me, a clean slate (although with a corner chipped off) was the only way forward.

Hope ya'all have been well.


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## Chuck71

Took ya long enough to update azzhole LOL!

Glad to hear you have deep introspection. Sounds like your W "has your back." Your XW never did.

Any more kids coming along?


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## poida

Chuck71 said:


> Took ya long enough to update azzhole LOL!
> 
> Glad to hear you have deep introspection. Sounds like your W "has your back." Your XW never did.
> 
> Any more kids coming along?


Lol hey Chuck... 

I have to admit I really just had to take a good long break from TAM. 

At some point it was more important to "fake it until I made it" than constantly evaluate my life.

The fact I still don't really understand what my EX was thinking is testament to that.

And yes, we will have another kid.


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## MattMatt

poida said:


> Lol hey Chuck...
> 
> I have to admit I really just had to take a good long break from TAM.
> 
> At some point it was more important to "fake it until I made it" than constantly evaluate my life.
> 
> The fact I still don't really understand what my EX was thinking is testament to that.
> 
> And yes, we will have another kid.


I wonder if your XW really understood what she was thinking?


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## Laurentium

Congratulations! 


poida said:


> I have a son! Tom is 11 weeks old and doing great.
> 
> ....
> I also no longer like to call it Reconciliation. People need to realize that on many levels a cheater has already left the relationship when they cheat. To get back together is to form a new relationship. Ive learnt to respect those who choose to get back together as there is a whole spectrum of relationships out there and everyone deserves to do as they wish.


That's a very good way of looking at it.


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## poida

MattMatt said:


> I wonder if your XW really understood what she was thinking?


Who knows, but that was (still is in some way) the hardest thing not knowing as the BS.


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## Taxman

Poida
Sir, you navigated a terrible situation and came out the other end renewed and better. It seems that life was waiting with rewards for you, and your lovely wife and new son are those rewards. Treasure them. One wonders how your ex reacted when you and your new wife were able to produce a child, when the previous combination of you and your ex could not do so. I only ask this because part of my practice is concerned with divorce (we offer a low cost alternative using paralegals), and I have witnessed meltdowns when a former spouse discovers that their ex has produced a child with their new husband/wife/SO. Given the personality of your ex, the minute she found out, she would march herself home and demand that she be impregnated that very second. (If that new marriage has lasted beyond her next fling)


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## TDSC60

poida - I encourage you to look at TAM on occasion and offer advice to those who find themselves in the same situation you were in.

Experience is the best, and most listened to, teacher.


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## Chuck71

TDSC60 said:


> poida - I encourage you to look at TAM on occasion and offer advice to those who find themselves in the same situation you were in.
> 
> Experience is the best, and most listened to, teacher.


How's M life treatin' ya?


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## Lasvegas

I hope she did not get any reason from you to cheat on you. If you do not take care of your spouse then someone else will. You should have plenty of sex with her and then divorce her.


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## BluesPower

poida said:


> Hi Guys and Gals,
> Seeking a bit of advice.
> 8 years married, 34 years old
> Happy couple, good sex life until around 2 years ago.
> Essentially, because we handle issues differently we grew apart. She has a yell, buries the issue and runs away from it and I want to talk about it, analyse it.
> 3 months of counselling for me now.
> I have found out always been fairly reliant on my partners for approval and hence lost my confidence when things started to go down hill a bit. I didn't ever get a chance to deal with my problems in the relationship and just buried them.
> 4 Months ago I found out she was cheating on me with an ex boy friend who she still had "abandonment issues" left over from her last relationship.
> Long story, but anyway where I am at is that I have found my self, realised that there always need to be ME and then others (didn't ever realise this), and I'm kind of in a space of comfort where I can accept what has happened.
> We are living under the same roof (sleeping separately), she has stopped seeing the ex and says she doesn't feel like that now. She just says that she doesn't know who she is any more and really doesn't talk to me much. She does not want to start counselling. I have pushed pretty hard, but it is counter productive.
> She says she still loves me and wants the marriage to work.
> So, whilst I'm pretty comfortable with myself, I'm living with a depressed wife who obviously feels very guilty, but has yet to be able to begin the healing process.
> I am becoming frustrated and kind of angry at her inability to deal with the issue and being around her is just awkward now.
> She hardly talks to me.
> I still love her, but her silence is killing me slowly.
> I have considered telling her to live somewhere else (and she had offered to do so), but I know she doesn't really want to go and she wont be back if she does go (she runs from every relationship she has ever had).
> A difficult situation but your advice welcome.
> Thanks,
> Poida


No brother what you actually have is a wife that is still having an affair. You rug swept the last affair. She is still in the affair but Ex BF does not want her full time. He does not mind screwing her, or she him for that matter, but she does not want to loose the comfort and a roof over her head that you, "Good Old Plan B Guy", provide for her. 

You on the other hand are a codependent man that is weak and afraid the you will not find another woman. So you swept all of the affair stuff under the rug and think your wife is working on her marriage. 

There is no possible way that you have done anything else. Every move that you have made has been completely wrong, and I will let everyone else tell you what you should have done. 

What you need to kick her out of your house and divorce her, starting today.


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## TJW

Lasvegas said:


> I hope she did not get any reason from you to cheat on you.


You should have absolutely no worries about this. People do not cheat because of anything their spouse does, or doesn't do. They cheat because they are selfish and sinful, and because they do not respect their spouse, their vows, their family, or God.

And, please, do not let anyone tell you that you didn't "earn" her respect. Because God is a PERFECT "person". If she doesn't respect him, there is no way she is going to respect you.....no matter what you do, or don't, do.

There are countless spouses who have endured decades of neglect, mistreatment, sexual refusal, and have been in position to have an affair.....yet, they have chosen to remain faithful...to their spouse, their vows, their family, and God.

It is a CHOICE.


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## GTdad

BluesPower said:


> What you need to kick her out of your house and divorce her, starting today.


He divorced her almost three years ago.

It pays to check dates.


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## BluesPower

GTdad said:


> He divorced her almost three years ago.
> 
> It pays to check dates.


Wow, missed that one, thanks...


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## Steve1000

TJW said:


> You should have absolutely no worries about this. People do not cheat because of anything their spouse does, or doesn't do. They cheat because they are selfish and sinful, and because they do not respect their spouse, their vows, their family, or God.
> 
> And, please, do not let anyone tell you that you didn't "earn" her respect. Because God is a PERFECT "person". If she doesn't respect him, there is no way she is going to respect you.....no matter what you do, or don't, do.
> 
> There are countless spouses who have endured decades of neglect, mistreatment, sexual refusal, and have been in position to have an affair.....yet, they have chosen to remain faithful...to their spouse, their vows, their family, and God.
> 
> It is a CHOICE.


Is it possible to refrain from cheating without having respect for any Gods?


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## SentHereForAReason

Steve1000 said:


> Is it possible to refrain from cheating without having respect for any Gods?


Yes but I would like to think in cases like mine where both claimed to have been devout their whole life and are involved in the church, it could be used as a basis to hold someone accountable for it.

Sadly, nope. She looked at it as a sin, following her heart but is forgiven and I'm not perfect either lol. Even went to the priest several times and after each time, she would talk to him and then she wouldn't skip a beat, missed no reading, no walks up to communion and no meetings with the church committees but she can lie to them but she cannot lie to whomever can see us no matter where we are.


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## TJW

Steve1000 said:


> Is it possible to refrain from cheating without having respect for any Gods?


Of course, it is. Every person, whether acquainted with God, or not, is aware that fidelity in relationships is a moral imperative. And, it is likewise, a choice made without respect to their spouse, their vows, and their family. Each one of these is alone sufficient reason to remain faithful.


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## Steve1000

TJW said:


> Of course, it is. Every person, whether acquainted with God, or not, is aware that fidelity in relationships is a moral imperative. And, it is likewise, a choice made without respect to their spouse, their vows, and their family. Each one of these is alone sufficient reason to remain faithful.


I think so too, but the reason why I asked is I was wondering how cultures that practiced polygamy fit into this.


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## Steve1000

stillfightingforus said:


> Yes but I would like to think in cases like mine where both claimed to have been devout their whole life and are involved in the church, it could be used as a basis to hold someone accountable for it.
> 
> Sadly, nope. She looked at it as a sin, following her heart but is forgiven and I'm not perfect either lol. Even went to the priest several times and after each time, she would talk to him and then she wouldn't skip a beat, missed no reading, no walks up to communion and no meetings with the church committees but she can lie to them but she cannot lie to whomever can see us no matter where we are.


It's really hard to understand someone like her. I wonder why someone like that bothers to go through all the work of presenting a fake appearance to so many people.


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## Chuck71

Steve1000 said:


> It's really hard to understand someone like her. I wonder why someone like that bothers to go through all the work of presenting a fake appearance to so many people.


As the actress says......."The show MUST go on...."


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## threelittlestars

Your story is very similar to my brothers.... 

Until it dawned on me you live in Australia. 

He also was low sperm count. His wife had an exit something... Not sure affair but she bailed on him after 10 years married to try with someone else because she was not getting any younger. 

Turned out my brother can have kids. Him and his second wife are trying for number 2 now. I have a beautiful niece and his ex wife has been remarried for 3 years and trying for a baby and still no baby. Me thinks it is she who cannot produce! For all the **** she gave to my brother I think it is just... 

Congrats!


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## poida

Chuck71 said:


> How's M life treatin' ya?


Great. We have a 7 month old boy who is a delight. All is well.

Its work that is my struggle. I just have NO motivation as I approach 40.


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## poida

BluesPower said:


> No brother what you actually have is a wife that is still having an affair. You rug swept the last affair. She is still in the affair but Ex BF does not want her full time. He does not mind screwing her, or she him for that matter, but she does not want to loose the comfort and a roof over her head that you, "Good Old Plan B Guy", provide for her.
> 
> You on the other hand are a codependent man that is weak and afraid the you will not find another woman. So you swept all of the affair stuff under the rug and think your wife is working on her marriage.
> 
> There is no possible way that you have done anything else. Every move that you have made has been completely wrong, and I will let everyone else tell you what you should have done.
> 
> What you need to kick her out of your house and divorce her, starting today.


Little late to the party there Blues.. lol

And BTW, I remarried and have a 7 month old.

I now have a marriage with communication and all is well.


----------



## poida

threelittlestars said:


> Your story is very similar to my brothers....
> 
> Until it dawned on me you live in Australia.
> 
> He also was low sperm count. His wife had an exit something... Not sure affair but she bailed on him after 10 years married to try with someone else because she was not getting any younger.
> 
> Turned out my brother can have kids. Him and his second wife are trying for number 2 now. I have a beautiful niece and his ex wife has been remarried for 3 years and trying for a baby and still no baby. Me thinks it is she who cannot produce! For all the **** she gave to my brother I think it is just...
> 
> Congrats!


yeah well its all chemistry huh. I second wife got pregnant after 3 months so hmm.
My ex forced her cheat partner to marry her and now they havent been able to have kids either.

Im not sure how I feel about divorce over inability to have kids, but it s a big deal for women (even if they wont admit it) and in many ways i can't blame them if they are transparent about it. Pretty awful deal for the guy though.


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## Chuck71

poida said:


> Great. We have a 7 month old boy who is a delight. All is well.
> 
> Its work that is my struggle. I just have NO motivation as I approach 40.


Motivation for........ work? Another kid? Sail?


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## poida

Chuck71 said:


> Motivation for........ work? Another kid? Sail?


Work. The drive and ambition just isnt there anymore.


----------

