# Explain the fog/lack of guilt, etc.



## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

This is one of those things that I have never understood about H's EA especially between DD#1 and DD#2...how can someone who is generally a nice, decent person continue behind my back all the while telling me that he loved me, etc. continue on with his online EA with no guilt? I have asked H about it many times and he has said even though he knew logically it was wrong there was something addicting about it? 

I don't understand what could be so addicting about stupid chat with someone online????

He finds it hard to explain what kept him at that time compelled to keep going with it...he said it was safe because of the distance between them but to me doesn't that make it easier to end it then?? He said he knew that nothing more was going to happen between them...but yet he kept going with it.

I still to this day, even though things are better, still do not understand the whole fog thing.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

He actually made a comment one time that it wasn't about me....okay so I don't get that.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

That's a touchy point for me as well. H admitted that he even talked voice with her via a CB radio type app on his phone. When he confessed I thought he only talked "once" that way but when we were talking about it in more detail last week he mentioned they talked many times that way. I asked "where was I'...his reply was when I was running errands or on his way home from work. 

I said, "how did you talk to her on the way home and then come in the house and act like nothing was wrong- how were you able to pull that off"....he just shrugged. 

The guilt and double life would eat me alive. I can't even stand the Santa Clause questions from my kid. 

It's really amazing how fantastic that fog must feel to make people from all walks of life throw caution to the wind and take some amazing chances, all for lust. 

My therapist said it's the "power of the secret" that makes it so intoxicating like a drug of the best kind. 

I really do think the secret is the carrot that keeps it going.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

The fog is similar to being in love. Remember, the only thing that exists in their universe is the other person. They aren't thinking of anyone else's feelings, not parents, not spouses, not children, not friends, only their feelings and the feelings of their affair partner.

If you go on some cheater sites, some refer to this as the "affair bubble".


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Simply put, FOG is when the WS doesn't realize that the world around them is crumbling because they're still latched onto the elusive happily ever after with AP. Its like they're in a trance, high on dopamine and all the other chemicals being released in their brains, so trying to use logic or declaring your never ending love for them or acting like a doormat and accepting the crumbs they hand out will only ensure to prolong their delusion and your agony


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## Stephanie.Jackson (Jun 22, 2012)

I had a PA and EA and it started off as casual meetings over drinks, watching a movie, ect. I knew that was WAY crossing boundaries but I falsely trusted myself to keep it there. I turned down all his advances for a while. Before, during, and after our encounters I knew that what I was doing was wrong. I kept telling myself if this gets outta hand I can just end it. Well, it did and I couldn't. I kept trying to "break up" with the OM like at least once a week (10 month long affair) and I COULDN'T. It'd last for like 2 days and then I just had to be around him. It truly felt like a horrid addiction. This was probably made worse since the whole reason I was cheating was because I was lonely since my husband was deployed. So having the AP gone was just as bad. Now it was easy to fake everything was okay when my husband would call from Afghanistan. Phone convos were easy to pretend nothing was going on. When he finally came home though, it was blatantly obvious something was wrong. I told him I need counseling about 50 times and I was short-term depressed because the realization hit me that I really do have to pick one or the other, but since I was still getting my "high" from the other man, my affection and intimacy with the husband went way downhill, which further pushed me to believe the OM was the best choice. Awhile later my husband asked if I was cheating on him and I just said yes. Now that I do not live with my husband, I am completely out of the fog. I feel nothing for this OM which I coulda swore three weeks ago I was in love with. That was definitely a false feeling, because here I am, fighting for the man I really love which is my husband.

The fog thing really, really messes you up. Some people can be face to face with their spouses and show no sign of an AP.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

highwood said:


> He actually made a comment one time that it wasn't about me....okay so I don't get that.


Ive heard this very comment "It wasnt about you" WELL WHY THE F*CK NOT? When you said "I do" it became about me, or at least it was supposed to. Thats how it worked with me. I had opportunity too, I said "No, this cant happen. Im married." and that was that.

"IT wasnt about you" goes thru me like a knife .

And it begs the question "so why is it all of the sudden ALL about me?" "NOw you cant get enough of ME? I dont get how you flip that switch"

If anyone else does-please enlighten me.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

It seems so messed up...I can understand what others are saying about the "fog" but I still can't imagine how you can do it..all the while "working on your marriage"...

I do not know if I would be able to keep such secrets for months on end...I am the type that if something is bugging me it is hard to hold it in..I want to vent/discuss, etc. etc.


Sometimes I think if I had not discovered the second laptop in H's truck would he still be in contact with her...sadly I kind of think so...I think he is out of the fog now but you always do the "what ifs"...


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

highwood said:


> It seems so messed up...I can understand what others are saying about the "fog" but I still can't imagine how you can do it..all the while "working on your marriage"...
> 
> I do not know if I would be able to keep such secrets for months on end...I am the type that if something is bugging me it is hard to hold it in..I want to vent/discuss, etc. etc.
> 
> ...


same way you can go shopping for a new wedding ring(that was his idea). He was in the middle of his EA-yet he went with me and picked out a new wedding band????? WTF? Why the hell would you do that?And how did that conversation between h and OW go? HER: "hey you got a new ring" Him: "yeah, I couldnt get out of it. She would have known if I'd resisted".... WOW. No conscience. Thats all I can say. Self important jerks.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Sounds like you do the same thing I do and imagine what was said or what was thought? H tells me that I overanalyze and assume that he is thinking this or he is thinking that...I realize I do tend to do it and it is probably not the healthiest thing to do but I can't help it. 

During some of our fights/arguments, etc. I will tell him I think we should separate because I know that is what you want this way you can reinitiate contact and you and your OW can be happy ever after...he always gets exasperated and mad when I have said this but to me in my mind sometimes I can't help but think it. It is hard to not make assumptions or imagine how conversations went.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

...and honestly I think if I was to kick him out and start divorce proceedings I have the feeling for comfort he would try and contact her.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't get it, and I think it is a lame excuse. Fortunately, I will never know what that fog is and have no desire even though WS has given me 3 reasons to drive right through it with my windows down and tunes cranked. 

I read a quote once, and I think it applies very well to my WS's affair/fog, along with many others (and it made me laugh)....Never wrestle with a pig, you'll both get dirty...and the pig will love it.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I hate that pig.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

highwood said:


> ...and honestly I think if I was to kick him out and start divorce proceedings I have the feeling for comfort he would try and contact her.


Well what he would do if you divorced him isnt what matters. What matters is what he does if you dont. Right? I dont know if my H would or not. I think not b/c he realizes that she was an illusion. Now find a new one-oh yeah. But as long as he doesnt do that while we are married ever again, we just might make it. But its gonna be a long road for sure. I do my best to not imagine too many conversations. I actually heard a few so imagining isnt too hard. They sounded like a couple of high schoolers. Sickening honestly. I didnt even recognize him when reading the emails between them or listening to him talk to her. He was not the H I know. That makes it hard for R because I have seen enough of him to fear what he can be so easily. 

anyway, sorry for going off on a tangent.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Ego. Enormous sense of entitlement. Have you seen any of the interviews with Rielle Hunter, John Edwards' mistress, who is promoting her new book? She is totally wrapped up in her own fantasy world, where she justifies everything that makes her feel good. No sense of reality, absolutely no ability to empathize with anyone.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

The fog is very real. The dopamine that is released in the brain is the same chemical that is released when someone uses cocaine or opium. It clouds the judgement and makes people do and say things they would never do otherwise. This does not excuse the wayward spouse for their behavior, it just explains partially what is occurring within the thought process. There have been many posts explaining the fog from various points of view.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> The fog is very real. The dopamine that is released in the brain is the same chemical that is released when someone uses cocaine or opium. It clouds the judgement and makes people do and say things they would never do otherwise. This does not excuse the wayward spouse for their behavior, it just explains partially what is occurring within the thought process. There have been many posts explaining the fog from various points of view.


welcome back.


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

highwood said:


> I still to this day, even though things are better, still do not understand the whole fog thing.


( from my post on another thread)
Ok, let's see, Fog :

A thick cloud of water droplets suspended in the atmosphere at or near the earth's surface that obscures or restricts visibility...

A word used to assuages the ego of the BS and lessens the guilt of the cheater for making bad, deliberate choices, thus placing the blame on external factors. It's like saying, "the devil made them do it", and gives a foundation for whitewashing what really happened and blaming a person who is labeled the sorry POS who seduced one's spouse. 
An example of usage:
"My wife is doing her POS tennis instructor because she's in a fog."

"My husband got into a fog one day and started banging his bubble butted coworker with the 42C's."


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

^^^^I think there is some truth here too. I believe the fog is real but it doesnt brainwash a person. They still have the ability to control themselves, to make the right decisions- it just makes those decisions more difficult. Sort of like being on a diet- you do have the ability to resist that chocolate bar but there is indeed some addiction to the chocolate bar that really pulls you toward it. Affairs are like chocolate to me-a person could resist-they just dont.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Maybe it would help if you envisioned a drug addict. Let's say someone who's hooked on cocaine. When someone is hooked on a drug, they will tell you to your face that they'll stop and steal from you behind your back to pay for the drug they need. When someone is a true drug addict, they may have a great job, great spouse, great home and everything anyone ever wanted, and yet they throw away the great job because they are so stoned/high (whatever the term is ) that they get fired. They throw away the great spouse by lying over and over and stealing family money to pay for the drugs. They throw away the great house by using the family money for the drugs and not making the house payment! So some part of them KNOWS that they if they don't quit they'll lose their job, their spouse, their house...and yet they do it anyway. 

It's illogical!!

But the addiction overrides the ability to think clearly. Now don't get me wrong. I was disloyal and I absolutely hold disloyals accountable to know they are addicted and stop themselves COLD TURKEY. So it's no an excuse!! But it sort of is an explanation to the "why" or "how." Why? Because an affair is a physical chemical addition to amphetamine brain chemicals. It probably makes no sense to you because you aren't an addict.

Here's a good quote from an article about the Chemistry of Love:

_"There are those who may be addicted to that love "high." They need that amphetamine-like rush of dopamine, norepinephrine and phenylethylamine. Because the body builds up a tolerance to these chemicals, it begins to take more and more to give love junkies that high. They go through relationship after relationship to get their fix."_


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I have been struggling with losing the last 10 lbs I need to lose...and I start off every day saying yes, I am going to watch waht I eat, etc. etc...then at some point very often I start getting cravings and then give into them...with the promise that I will be better tomorrow.

So I guess it would be something similar..in that I know what the right thing to do is however I end up doing what I shouldn't do for various reasons....my mind telling me yes go ahead and eat those chips usually wins out over reason.

So even though I want to do the right thing more often than not I do not...


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

highwood said:


> I have been struggling with losing the last 10 lbs I need to lose...and I start off every day saying yes, I am going to watch waht I eat, etc. etc...then at some point very often I start getting cravings and then give into them...with the promise that I will be better tomorrow.
> 
> So I guess it would be something similar..in that I know what the right thing to do is however I end up doing what I shouldn't do for various reasons....my mind telling me yes go ahead and eat those chips usually wins out over reason.
> 
> So even though I want to do the right thing more often than not I do not...


Right. Have the chocolate bar today- no one's watching. Thats the mind set of a cheater.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

highwood said:


> I have been struggling with losing the last 10 lbs I need to lose...and I start off every day saying yes, I am going to watch waht I eat, etc. etc...then at some point very often I start getting cravings and then give into them...with the promise that I will be better tomorrow.
> 
> So I guess it would be something similar..in that I know what the right thing to do is however I end up doing what I shouldn't do for various reasons....my mind telling me yes go ahead and eat those chips usually wins out over reason.
> 
> So even though I want to do the right thing more often than not I do not...


Good analogy. The rational part of your brain knows it is wrong, but the emotional part craves the pleasure and high that you get from fantasy. Guess which side wins every time?


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Yes, plus the quick reward..as to opposed to the long way off in the future reward of weight loss.

The quick reward, I guess for my H, was the flattery, light flirty conversation that immediately made him feel good regardless of the consequences down the line.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks all..I am just trying to understand all of this..because some days it is so hard to get how someone could say they love you and do not want a divorce but then turn around and flirt with someone else online.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

highwood said:


> I have been struggling with losing the last 10 lbs I need to lose...and I start off every day saying yes, I am going to watch waht I eat, etc. etc...then at some point very often I start getting cravings and then give into them...with the promise that I will be better tomorrow.
> 
> So I guess it would be something similar..in that I know what the right thing to do is however I end up doing what I shouldn't do for various reasons....my mind telling me yes go ahead and eat those chips usually wins out over reason.
> 
> So even though I want to do the right thing more often than not I do not...


However, I bet if you had your family and friends looking at you and telling you that eating those chips would surely cause your family to die, you would not do it. I know I wouldn't. Everyone knows that infidelity is a bad thing - so just don't start - don't even take a taste - bad, bad, bad.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> However, I bet if you had your family and friends looking at you and telling you that eating those chips would surely cause your family to die, you would not do it. I know I wouldn't. Everyone knows that infidelity is a bad thing - so just don't start - don't even take a taste - bad, bad, bad.


thats been my argument all along. WHY even get started? You had a point in the beginning when you knew what was happening and you could have stopped, you werent in the fog yet, but you chose not to stop. That was a choice not an addiction just yet. The time to not get addicted to the drug is BEFORE you do it. Everyone knows that.\ but cheaters think they are special-they can deal with it. They are in control.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

That's why for me.....as bad as I felt about it at the time to let our adult son know what his dad was up to in April...was a huge factor I think, in lifting H out of his fog. H wants his son to respect him so much and wants to have a good relationship with him...it devestated him to see what his son thought about all of this. The embarrassment, humiliation, etc.

Sometimes I think seeing our son's reaction had more of an impact than my reaction...


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## sculley (Jun 6, 2012)

I went through this in my first marriage my ex said he let go of her but continued an additional 2 times before I finally divorced him. I hate to say it but it could still happen especially when he is telling you it was addicting.. I hope in your case it's not gonna reoccur I wasted an additional year of my life
With a man that to this day is still a ****ty person and crappy
Dad.. I'm so happy whom I'm married to now and would
Rather spend my worst day of arguing with him over lack of communication than my best day ever with my ex...Best of luck to you my dear
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

highwood said:


> That's why for me.....as bad as I felt about it at the time to let our adult son know what his dad was up to in April...was a huge factor I think, in lifting H out of his fog. H wants his son to respect him so much and wants to have a good relationship with him...it devestated him to see what his son thought about all of this. The embarrassment, humiliation, etc.
> 
> Sometimes I think seeing our son's reaction had more of an impact than my reaction...


Ditto for my H. He had to tell both adult kids. Not a good day. They both responded with disappointment. It really effected him. Didnt get him totally out of his fog but it sure helped.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

guess I'll try to explain my fog: well now it makes no sense to me but I do remember feeling drawn to textiing the OM all the time..how could I have gotten giddy over texting? ? I still wonder what the heck was I thinking. I remember liking the positive attention he gave me...once hubby started to give me that positive attention I was already caught up in this other a-hole. We were in MC and I tried to stop talking to the OM and it was like a drug, kept bouncing back and forth till finally the OM stopped talking to me..poor baby was mad that I told hubby all about him....finally came back to hubby. Not sure this helps because it was so darn stupid
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

highwood said:


> That's why for me.....as bad as I felt about it at the time to let our adult son know what his dad was up to in April...was a huge factor I think, in lifting H out of his fog. H wants his son to respect him so much and wants to have a good relationship with him...it devestated him to see what his son thought about all of this. The embarrassment, humiliation, etc.
> 
> Sometimes I think seeing our son's reaction had more of an impact than my reaction...


I bet. Because the embarrassment to have to admit that he was "weak" to his son, etc.

I do understand the line of thinking that HOW CAN IT NOT BE ABOUT ME? Of course it feels like is about you when your H is doing things with others that are supposed to be just between the 2 of you. But I think its actually about the marriage itself. (Even though that marriage only contains one other person=you). I don't know if it helps, but this is how I have come to see it. Almost as a paradox of itself.

I try to get out of these endless loops.

Also, I think the dopamine discussion cannot be emphasized enough. The brain changes after ANY amount of time getting fast and easy dopamine surges. Which in turn, produces a sluggish reward circuitry. Its the same with any substance that one abuses. EA or PA, cybersex, online relationships of any kind fall into this category. Everyday life loses its color and at this point, it IS no longer about you, but about the rut the WS has allowed for themselves.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

The problem is...dang it I knew better before I started talking to the OM in the first place. I felt guilty but did it anyway.. There is NO excuse for bad behavior like that. I told myself our marriage was already dead and I want to be happy. God this sucks admitting or talking about but if it helps. I cannot erase the past but I definately can learn from it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

This thread helps...it is so hard to understand it all unless you lived it I guess but it does help.

I see that H is trying to make things better but at times we both do things that kind of make us take a step back..I know for myself I bring it up alot more than I should be doing often in unhealthy sarcastic ways...it is like the thought of letting it go scares me for some reason..

The counsellor said it is like it is easier for me to be angry than loving and i think there is some truth in it...when I am angry I feel like I am the one in power while when I am loving I think I associate that with vulnerability.

This whole thing really ****s a person up...


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

They say: don't do drugs, drugs are bad and yet there are people that knowing they are bad did them anyway and got hooked..the question is why did they start?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Oh and now months since we started to R hubby is more obcessed about the affair and the OM than I ever was but I read in a book that that's common.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> guess I'll try to explain my fog: well now it makes no sense to me but I do remember feeling drawn to textiing the OM all the time..how could I have gotten giddy over texting? ? I still wonder what the heck was I thinking. I remember liking the positive attention he gave me...once hubby started to give me that positive attention I was already caught up in this other a-hole. We were in MC and I tried to stop talking to the OM and it was like a drug, kept bouncing back and forth till finally the OM stopped talking to me..poor baby was mad that I told hubby all about him....finally came back to hubby. Not sure this helps because it was so darn stupid
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This post allowed me a glimpse into what my WW
was going through and possibly thinking during her A.

They would text each other all day & night... pure fantasy...
then she'd just show up, have sex, leave and go back to
her "normal" life again.

She told me that she really knew nothing about him
and preferred to keep it that way.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

highwood said:


> ...it is like the thought of letting it go scares me for some reason...


(((highwood)))


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

cantthinkstraight said:


> This post allowed me a glimpse into what my WW
> was going through and possibly thinking during her A.
> 
> They would text each other all day & night... pure fantasy...
> ...


Well, that's just a pure dopamine hit! Sheeeesh.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> The problem is...dang it I knew better before I started talking to the OM in the first place. I felt guilty but did it anyway.. There is NO excuse for bad behavior like that. I told myself our marriage was already dead and I want to be happy. God this sucks admitting or talking about but if it helps. I cannot erase the past but I definately can learn from it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would you happen to have a link to your story/first post here?

I'm intrigued to find out and would like to know more about what happened.... where you are now in life, etc.

Thanks.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> Oh and now months since we started to R hubby is more obcessed about the affair and the OM than I ever was but I read in a book that that's common.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is like me...I became obsessed with the OW..I have no clue what she looks like,etc. and I desperately want to see her...(plus I would love to have it out with her). I found myself searching her name on the computer/facebook, etc. but to no avail.

I know I am giving her too much power but frick I want to know everything about her for some stupid reason..it is like I want to see what the appeal was for H. Plus he was the one that pursued me like crazy way back when and was always loving toward me....so I want to see what this person was that maybe, (not sure, he denies it but whatever) he would consider leaving me for.

My sister said forget about her she is a non entitity and I get that but the curiosity drives me nuts sometimes...

I want to know what they talked about and I know that while in Singapore they went out for dinner, movie, etc. and I want to know everything about that.

It is so fricken unhealthy I know.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

there is a thread Calvin wrote in the considering divorce section called Wrong About There Being Hope...now I have a thread called The Ups and Downs in the private section...sorry cant link from this cell phone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Wrong About There Being Hope is back to Feb 1st
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

canttrustu said:


> thats been my argument all along. *WHY even get started? *You had a point in the beginning when you knew what was happening and you could have stopped, you werent in the fog yet, but you chose not to stop. That was a choice not an addiction just yet. The time to not get addicted to the drug is BEFORE you do it. Everyone knows that but cheaters think they are special-they can deal with it. They are in control.


Okay let me see if I can give you a brief step-by-step on my situation which was, I think, somewhat typical. 

I was approaching 40's, Dear Hubby was mid-40's. 
I had a miscarriage about 1/2 way through the pregnancy. 
We both mourned: him by withdrawing, me by turning to him and he wasn't there
We had medical testing and found we couldn't get pregnant.
We both mourned more. He pulled away more; I felt even more abandoned. 
He soothed some of his pain by playing a certain game on his own.
I felt like in order to get his attention I had to set myself on fire and then I'd get "huh?"

****SOOOO... I decided I would play this other game that I enjoyed on my own. **** * (THIS I think -now- was the pivotal key, but more on that in a bit.) 

Nothing wrong with that right? He plays something he enjoys; I play something I enjoy. Healthy individuals have separate interests. 

I play my game, and am very good at it so I enjoy it. 
I try to keep Dear Hubby 'in the loop' with what I'm doing and with who, and he seems bored by it (like I'm taking his time)
I just play and include him less...and less...
I have no intention whatsoever of anything--just having fun. 
A male person who also played the game, noticed *me*
The male person noticed my skill and said I was a good player (and I was)...but the difference is that he took the time to notice and Dear Hubby did not.
The male person indicated he enjoyed playing with me because I was good. 
Then one day, the male person sort of went FULL BORE and said all this stuff that was really, REALLY complimentary. Not sexy but more like "You are the smartest person and such a joy to talk to! Not just in the game either but in real life!" 
I was gobsmacked. And after that I was hooked. 

Now, if you were living that and experiencing it IN THE MOMENT would your head be able to say: _"Ah here is the moment where I am starting an affair. I'm going to stop before I start"_??? Do you see such a moment? You might say "Well when the male person noticed my skill and commented." Sooooo...if I do good work at work and my boss is a male person, and he comments "You did some really good work there"....I've started an affair? Should I stop work? Quit my job? Or not? It's a statement of fact. 

Now, here's the answer upon a great deal of personal review looking back on it. I believe the pivotal point, looking back on it, was when I decided I would play this other game that I enjoyed on my own. Know why? Because of two reasons: 1) the intent of playing the game was not necessarily to EXCLUDE Dear Hubby but it sure didn't *INCLUDE* him!!! and 2) the intent of playing the game was to get my needs met by people/means other than Dear Hubby. That is to say, I had tried to share my feelings with Dear Hubby and get time and attention from him, but he wasn't in that place in his head...so I thought if I played and did a good job that the team I was on would notice, say something, make me feel good, etc. Right? The main, deep-down issue, though, is that by doing that--I was turning to OTHERS to have needs of being noticed, hearing positive things, helping me feel wanted. Now I *intended* to be a great player and have the team say "WOW we want you on our team!" or "You are a great healer--come play with us" and even if I wasn't #1 I'd contribute in a positive way.... However, that's still "getting needs met" and it went places I had not considered -- but since I hadn't considered them I also did NOT have a defense ready!!

Now I know a couple of things:
1) Turn to Dear Hubby and Dear Hubby only to have my needs met. Not work. Not friends. Not any other way. 
2) I have to put up protections to defend against attacks. Hey I can come on this forum and be friendly etc. and someone could PM and try to start something up! I have to have a defense!
3) Do not participate in things that may not "exclude" Dear Hubby but don't INCLUDE HIM. To me I just made a personal rule, if he's not included I just don't do it.

Finally, this sort of statement: 


> ...Everyone knows that but cheaters think they are special-they can deal with it. They are in control...


 Please do not lump "all cheaters" into one group and then say something derogatory. Okay maybe YOUR cheater thought that, but we don't ALL think that. Not all loyal spouses are lazy and don't care enough to put any energy into their marriage --and thus no one here on TAM would say that, right? And FYI, I'm not saying MY spouse was that way either (it's an example).  Thanks!!


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

With H..this woman came at him...complimented him, etc. offered to show him around Singapore (to me right then he should have stopped it)....however the fact that at home for years our marriage was complacent and he felt like I did not care about him, made him more vulnerable to falling prey to this.

I still get pissed off that he fell for that.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Stephanie.Jackson said:


> I had a PA and EA and it started off as casual meetings over drinks, watching a movie, ect. I knew that was WAY crossing boundaries but I falsely trusted myself to keep it there. I turned down all his advances for a while. Before, during, and after our encounters I knew that what I was doing was wrong. I kept telling myself if this gets outta hand I can just end it. Well, it did and I couldn't. I kept trying to "break up" with the OM like at least once a week (10 month long affair) and I COULDN'T. It'd last for like 2 days and then I just had to be around him. It truly felt like a horrid addiction. This was probably made worse since the whole reason I was cheating was because I was lonely since my husband was deployed. So having the AP gone was just as bad. Now it was easy to fake everything was okay when my husband would call from Afghanistan. Phone convos were easy to pretend nothing was going on. When he finally came home though, it was blatantly obvious something was wrong. I told him I need counseling about 50 times and I was short-term depressed because the realization hit me that I really do have to pick one or the other, but since I was still getting my "high" from the other man, my affection and intimacy with the husband went way downhill, which further pushed me to believe the OM was the best choice. Awhile later my husband asked if I was cheating on him and I just said yes. Now that I do not live with my husband, I am completely out of the fog. I feel nothing for this OM which I coulda swore three weeks ago I was in love with. That was definitely a false feeling, because here I am, fighting for the man I really love which is my husband.


My STBEH finally came out of the fog when I filed for divorce after a false reconciliation and more disrespectful behavior on his part. 

I too was in the fog during the Reconciliation. The fog of the person I thought I was married to. 

Once out of the fog, I realized my STBEH was never the man I thought he was. 

I realized I deserved to be loved by someone who respected me and our marriage vow. 

My STBEH's affair hurt me beyond belief. I loved and adored him prior despite his many faults and somewhat peter pan-ish personality. 

His affair in many ways set me free. ...Free to see the truth and the truth gave me the courage to divorce him. 

He now does not want the divorce, being out of his own fog, and that is causing me a lot of pain and stress because I still do not want to hurt him. 

So, please do your husband a favor and set him free. Free to find a spouse that will be loyal.

It's sad that you now realize what you will be losing. But you also found out something about yourself and perhaps monogamy is not for you. Stay single.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Fvstringpicker said:


> ( from my post on another thread)
> Ok, let's see, Fog :
> 
> A thick cloud of water droplets suspended in the atmosphere at or near the earth's surface that obscures or restricts visibility...
> ...


I agree, the fog is likely an excuse invented by a MC who cheated and now thinks the loyal spouse should just let things go back to being hunky dorrey. 

The association to a drug addict definitely applies and therefore best to divorce the cheater. 

Why stay married to an addict. 

Studies show addicts never lose their desire for their drug of choice. 

They rarely get the monkey off their back.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> "IT wasnt about you goes thru me like a knife".
> 
> And it begs the question "so why is it all of the sudden ALL about me?" "NOw you cant get enough of ME? I dont get how you flip that switch"
> 
> If anyone else does-please enlighten me.


I feel the same. 

I am the same person STBEH claimed to love dearly and often bragged about. 

Then when with OW, all he did was pick fights and denigrate me, and complain to her and to me about everything he once bragged about and said attracted him to me. 

Now that I filed for divorce, he loves me again. 

What changed. Nothing, about me, that's for sure. 

The fear of the STBEH doing this again for any and no reason scares the heck out of me. 

It seems that anytime some young women wiggles her butt or boobs at him, he will take the bait because as he said "she made me feel good".

Well, all new relationships make people feel good. 

Most people grow up by the time they are 59 and realize that a 20 year marriage can not compete with a first date or a new love.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> ...and honestly I think if I was to kick him out and start divorce proceedings I have the feeling for comfort he would try and contact her.


That may well happen. It likely wouldn't last. 

Still, don't file for divorce as a threat. You have to mean it, in case that is the route he takes.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

No, it would not last. Even if he was single the chances of him and her having a sustaining relationship would not go over well. (plus statistically there would only be a 3% chance of them working out)

Because everyone knows she is filipino so then if he started bringing her around to family fucntions, plus around our son...everyone would know who she was and how it started so she would not be liked or accepted by his family and especially by our son.

THis would cause alot of stress on H and in the end OW would feel resentful, etc. and that would be it. Plus like I said to H, I realize you think that you are the love of her life but I call Bull**** to that..you were her ticket to a better future in Canada.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Well I do my best to not imagine too many conversations. I actually heard a few so imagining isnt too hard. They sounded like a couple of high schoolers. Sickening honestly. I didnt even recognize him when reading the emails between them or listening to him talk to her. He was not the H I know. That makes it hard for R because I have seen enough of him to fear what he can be so easily.
> \


Same on my end. Read emails and texts and heard voice mails. 

I mentioned in another post almost what you said. 

Also, I don't know adults who talk that way when in love.

I know my STBEH and I did not converse that way.

Seriously to me it sounded like a cheap dime store romance novel that was heavy on the porn conversations. At least all of the heavy breathing and sex talk came from her. She was really "getting hot" as she said many times. 

It really didn't take much to get her hot either, 'cause STBEH's conversation was not even about sex at the time. Hers was. He was more affectionate and protective and emotional and sooo bored with me. 

Seriously, I never talked to men like that when I was dating. I don't think my STBEH would have even liked it if I did.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

H's OW who is same age as me (44)...sent him some boy band from the UK song lyrics...entitled "I will love you forever"...okay...and how old are you lady???


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

You know when I think back at OW's emails they reeked of desperation...desperate to keep this relatinship going so she can have a financial supporter for her move to Canada.

He is such an idiot for buying this crap...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OK, here is what I remember.

I think I was in a sort of a fog because of my wife's affair. I had no therapy, nobody to talk to. I could not go to see a counsellor as they were colleagues or friends of my wife, and I felt it would be disloyal of me to tell them what had happened.

So I bumbled along for several years. I felt unattractive and unloved. My wife's aspieness means that she is brutally honest to the point of saying things that, although not meant to, can hurt and wound.

And it was from that low point, I noticed a female friend who we both knew. We both would drink together and we talked. Though we never talked about my wife.

My wife kept telling me I was having sex with her, which we were not.

We had another hurtful to be kind conversation and as the OW was starting to come on to me, I thought: "S**t! Why not?"

On the point of the affair becoming physical, I saw an image of my wife's face and thought: "OMG! What am I doing?"

It was at that point that the affair fog suddenly vanished for me. I knew I was doing wrong and that I did not want to have sex with the OW. 

It was as if until that moment I had split into two separate people. Good Matt and Bad Matt? No. Good Matt and very confused and very sad Matt.

The next morning I phoned a good friend who insisted I told my wife what had happened and broke contact with the OW. 

Which I did. It wasn't easy, in fact I had a kind of a breakdown, which my wife -God bless her!- helped me through.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

highwood said:


> I have been struggling with losing the last 10 lbs I need to lose...and I start off every day saying yes, I am going to watch waht I eat, etc. etc...then at some point very often I start getting cravings and then give into them...with the promise that I will be better tomorrow.
> 
> So I guess it would be something similar..in that I know what the right thing to do is however I end up doing what I shouldn't do for various reasons....my mind telling me yes go ahead and eat those chips usually wins out over reason.
> 
> So even though I want to do the right thing more often than not I do not...


I think its more like an alcoholic quitting drinking or Affaircare comparing it to a drug addiction. How many alcoholics were told by their spouses if you keep drinking we will divorce yet continued to consume alcohol. How many drug addicts were told to get clean by loved ones only to fail miserably and be ostracized. Those Twinkies may be calling to you but you can fairly easily eat an apple instead. Alcohol and drugs actively corrupt the chemistry of the brain. Its not as easy to resist the pull of those types of addictions. And make no mistake, dopamine is an addictive drug. Its very difficult to resist once its running roughshod through your cerebellum. Affairs occur in stages. Its quite easy to overlook the accumulation of feelings as affairs progress from friendship to attraction to romance to intercourse. The problem is that most people don't think they are capable of having an affair so they don't educate themselves on how they start. They are ignorant and their boundaries are weak and before they know it they are lost in the fog and deep in an affair.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> thats been my argument all along. WHY even get started? You had a point in the beginning when you knew what was happening and you could have stopped, you werent in the fog yet, but you chose not to stop. That was a choice not an addiction just yet. The time to not get addicted to the drug is BEFORE you do it. Everyone knows that.\ but cheaters think they are special-they can deal with it. They are in control.


I agree. In the beginning it was a conscious choice. 

My STBEH actually told me that he was trying to hurt me because I argued with him about spending a 100,000 dollars plus on an exotic car we did not need. 

The OW claimed she would let him buy it and would enjoy riding in it. 

We already have three nice high end cars.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> guess I'll try to explain my fog: well now it makes no sense to me but I do remember feeling drawn to textiing the OM all the time..how could I have gotten giddy over texting? ? I still wonder what the heck was I thinking. I remember liking the positive attention he gave me...once hubby started to give me that positive attention I was already caught up in this other a-hole. We were in MC and I tried to stop talking to the OM and it was like a drug, kept bouncing back and forth till finally the OM stopped talking to me..poor baby was mad that I told hubby all about him....finally came back to hubby. Not sure this helps because it was so darn stupid
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually no, it does not help. The stupidness and senselessness scares me more. 

You risked your marriage over a guy you now realize was an A hole. 

What for? Just flattery. 

That is the part that really scares me and why husband is STBEH. 

I am not wasting anymore time with him. 

MY research shows that most cheater reoffend only a very small percentage keep their promise to not cheat again.

Most marriages that fail had at lease one cheating episode in the past and the faithful spouse never trusts the cheater or looks at them the same way again.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

daggeredheart said:


> I asked "where was I"...
> 
> I said, "how did you talk to her on the way home and then come in the house and act like nothing was wrong- how were you able to pull that off"....he just shrugged...
> 
> The guilt and double life would eat me alive.



After I knew that she was cheating, this is exactly the words I asked my wife. I asked her... "How could you slip out, spend all day in a hotel having sex with another man... then come home in the afternoon like you had a hard day at work and just piddle around like normal?"... "Didn't it bother you?"

She replied, "At first, but you get over that."

In MC, I asked her... "Where was I in your life?". My MC said it was really never about me... It was all selfishly about her. My wife just sat their and cried.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Actually no, it does not help. The stupidness and senselessness scares me more.
> 
> You risked your marriage over a guy you now realize was an A hole.
> 
> ...


Sara,

This statement is simply not correct. My wife Morrigan had an affair and we reconciled. The trust was rebuilt because we worked at it every day and continue to do so. Marriage is a living breathing thing. It requires attention and nourishment. If you are consciously and actively feeding your marriage the chances of one partner or the other falling into an affair are remote. My wife is a former wayward spouse. Could she cheat again. Sure she could. I could also cheat. You could cheat. Anyone can cheat. But if you educate yourself on how affairs begin and set up appropriate boundaries then you can avoid falling into that trap. I trust my wife at least as much as I ever have. But I also do not look at my marriage or relationships in general through rose colored glasses. When Morrigan cheated it killed the fairy tale marriage ideas I had but it opened my eyes to what an adult relationship is and how fantastic it can be if one is willing to work on it.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

RWB said:


> After I knew that she was cheating, this is exactly the words I asked my wife. I asked her... "How could you slip out, spend all day in a hotel having sex with another man... then come home in the afternoon like you had a hard day at work and just piddle around like normal?"... "Didn't it bother you?"
> 
> She replied, "At first, but you get over that."
> 
> In MC, I asked her... "Where was I in your life?". My MC said it was really never about me... It was all selfishly about her. My wife just sat their and cried.


That's exactly it. It was all about her. When dealing with an alcoholic the worst thing you can do is treat the problem like you have any control over it. That is why Al-anon, counselors etc talk about codependency. You need to let the addict deal with their issues and remove yourself from the problem. When dealing with a wayward spouse the same principle applies. Its all about them and nothing you can say or do will matter so long as they are actively in the affair and receiving their dopamine "fix." That is why the 180 works. It removes you slowly from their life and forces them to see the affair from a perspective based in reality and not the fantasy world they've been living in. And just like an alcoholic has to hit bottom so too does a cheater need to have reality hit them right between the eyes. Its only when the wayward is about to lose everything (i.e. being kicked out of the house, served with divorce papers, etc.) that they finally begin to see through the fog and start to question their actions.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> That's exactly it. It was all about her. When dealing with an alcoholic the worst thing you can do is treat the problem like you have any control over it. That is why Al-anon, counselors etc talk about codependency. You need to let the addict deal with their issues and remove yourself from the problem. When dealing with a wayward spouse the same principle applies. Its all about them and nothing you can say or do will matter so long as they are actively in the affair and receiving their dopamine "fix." That is why the 180 works. It removes you slowly from their life and forces them to see the affair from a perspective based in reality and not the fantasy world they've been living in. And just like an alcoholic has to hit bottom so too does a cheater need to have reality hit them right between the eyes. Its only when the wayward is about to lose everything (i.e. being kicked out of the house, served with divorce papers, etc.) that they finally begin to see through the fog and start to question their actions.


THIS(being faced with losing everything)is the only thing that snapped him back into reality. And even then it was a slow process. He started to see what was happening in December but didnt totally get out of the 'fog' until June, when he finally had NC for about 4 weeks. Getting your spouse back will NEVER happen if there is still ANY contact at all. He's had NC for about 7 weeks now and my 'old' husband is showing up more and more often, Thank God. That guy that I was living with during his EA was unrecognizeable to me. I dont totally believe 100% in 'the fog', I must admit, I believe it to be a rather convenient excuse but I do believe there is _something_ to it. Just not the all consuming impact that is oh so convenient. I believe its some lousy selfish choices coupled with some addictive *behavior*. BUT never is it something outside of that persons control. They just dont WANT to control it. I say that b/c once my H wanted to control it- He DID. Proof positive that it is indeed a CHOICE. Also I believe that BS wants to believe in the fog b/c its easier than accepting that your partner chose to do what they did each and every day. Its easier to believe they couldnt control it. I would like to believe it but the fact taht he did once he put his mind to it proves that it was within his power to stop all along.

Also, theres the whole idea that it even got started in the first place. You cant get into the 'fog' if you never put your toe into the A. There is a point when they know whats coming and they arent yet in the 'fog' yet they continue b/c it feels 'fun and harmless'. The point when they chose to make that first secret contact, they chose to lie to their spouse that first time...the fog hasnt yet started. The only thing that exists at this point is blatant disregard for YOU. Then at some point and I think its different for everybody- the fog slowly creeps in. But in my opinion, it NEVER rules them the way crack or heroin would. It always remains their choice to lie to you and to betray you.

I am basing our R on this. It was his CHOICE. He has this side of him. He knows now how it starts and IF he makes this choice again- he knows how it will end.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> THIS(being faced with losing everything)is the only thing that snapped him back into reality. And even then it was a slow process. He started to see what was happening in December but didnt totally get out of the fog until June, when he finally had NC for about 4 weeks. Leaving the fog will NEVER happen if there is still ANY contact at all. He's had NC for about 7 weeks now and my 'old' husband is showing up more and more often, Thank God. That guy that I was living with during his EA was unrecognizeable to me. I dont totally believe 100% in 'the fog', I must admit, I believe it to be a rather convenient excuse but I do believe there is something to it. Just not the all consuming impact that is oh so convenient. i believe its some lousy selfish choices coupled with some addictive behavior. BUT never is it something outside of that persons control. They just dont WANT to control it. I say that b/c once my H wanted to control it- He DID. Proof positive that it is indeed a CHOICE. Also I believe that WS wants to believe in the fog b/c its easier than accepting that your partner chose to do what they did each and every day. Its easier to believe they couldnt control it. I would like to believe it but the fact taht he did once he put his mind to it proves that it was within his power to stop all along.
> 
> Also, theres the whole idea that it even got started in the first place. You cant get into the 'fog' if you never put your toe into the A. There is a point when they know whats coming and they arent yet in the 'fog' yet they continue b/c it feels 'fun and harmless'. The point when they chose to make that first secret contact, they chose to lie to their spouse that first time...the fog hasnt yet started. The only thing that exists at this point is blatant disregard for YOU. Then at some point and I think its different for everybody- the fog slowly creeps in. But in my opinion, it NEVER rules them the way crack or heroin would. It always remains their choice to lie to you and to betray you.
> 
> I am basing our R on this. It was his CHOICE. He has this side of him. He knows now how it starts and IF he makes this choice again- he knows how it will end.


Fog or not it is most definitely a choice just like its a choice for an alcoholic to pour that next drink or an addict to inject that next needle. The cheater must never be given any excuse for their behavior. But I find that understanding the chemical reactions in the brain during an affair helps me accept in some small way why Morrigan could do what she did and how she could continue to do what she knew was wrong. And she is the first to say that its not an excuse but an explanation of what she was feeling at the time. I, like most BS, felt the need to know how the one I loved most in the world and the one who promised to love me forever could possibly hurt me as much as she did. In some way I was comforted because, like you, my spouse while in the affair and shortly thereafter did not in any way resemble the spouse I married nor the one I've been together with for the last 20 years.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

canttrustu said:


> They chose to lie to their spouse that first time... It always remains their choice to lie to you and to betray you.


My wife admitted that she knew every time she made contact, every time she met for sex in some hotel it was wrong. She said that she would promise herself that this time it would be the last time. After one affair ended that she would never "allow" herself to fall for another. 

Just words, she never stopped. It was never a mistake... It always was a cold, calculated, Choice.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

RWB said:


> My wife admitted that she knew every time she made contact, every time she met for sex in some hotel it was wrong. She said that she would promise herself that this time it would be the last time. After one affair ended that she would never "allow" herself to fall for another.
> 
> Just words, she never stopped. It was never a mistake... It always was a cold, calculated, Choice.


unfortunately, I agree with you. My H knew exactly what he was doing right from the start- I will never believe otherwise. Now that he has walked down this road and is on the other side-the side of consequences and agony I hope he now knows its all a fantasy. Its not worth what will have to be endured when its over. He sees now that his AP was an illusion. None of his 'feelings' were based on the person she actually IS but rather on the person she presented at the time. I can only hope he realizes now that the grass was only greener on HER side b/c he was watering it. And on my side of the fence he had turned off the sprinkler and allowed the grass to dry up. So now he's watering my side. Suddenly my side is greener? Imagine that.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

My hubby doesn't really believe in the "fog" either. Says it's an excuse. Call it what you want. It's still an affair and you have the choice to stay and deal with it or leave and deal with it. SUCKS it's not like I can erase the past but like I said I sure as heck can learn from it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> My hubby doesn't really believe in the "fog" either. Says it's an excuse. Call it what you want. It's still an affair and you have the choice to stay and deal with it or leave and deal with it. SUCKS it's not like I can erase the past but like I said I sure as heck can learn from it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yes and I hope you have. Im sure Calvin has learned something just as I have. I dont like to call it the fog so much. I call it a choice. One that Ws' make and some learn from while others never do and leave a path of destruction wherever they go. You and My H, so far, seem to be among the few truly remorseful ones. But make no mistake, your remorse only goes so far the rest is dependent on our(bs) ability to forgive or inability to forgive. That is not something I have the answer to just yet. I havent done it yet. But Im working on it everyday. Some are better than others. I would love to believe the fog is real- and I do - just not the all encompassing mind control that it is put forth as. When i look back at this past year during his EA- I realize he was capable of being a son, a father, an employee and many other things. The one thing he was incapable of is being a Husband. To me that s like claiming temporary insanity for murder when you go out and buy the gun, call the person over to your house, shoot them, hide the body and get rid of the gun and set up your aliby. Thats not insanity-thats premeditation. Just like my H's affair. He lied to me from the get go-fostered it and hid it with a smile on his face. Not a 'fog'. 

Sorry its my opinion.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I feel Calvins pain as I read what you just wrote canttrustu..seems you both feel the same. You love us so much and it's so hard to even believe we are capable of such a thing. I wish I had the words to make you feel better but I don't. It is what it is and I know in my own heart I will never do it again. I can't force him to stay or forget but I can continue to reassure him how sorry I am and how much I love him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> I feel Calvins pain as I read what you just wrote canttrustu..seems you both feel the same. You love us so much and it's so hard to even believe we are capable of such a thing. I wish I had the words to make you feel better but I don't. It is what it is and I know in my own heart I will never do it again. I can't force him to stay or forget but I can continue to reassure him how sorry I am and how much I love him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. Thats kind of all you can do. Its gonna come down to Calvins(and mine) ability to ever trust again. i know how I feel now. I dont intend to feel the same way a year from now. One way or another. That said- I do feel way better than I did 2 months ago. And infinately better than before NC. Him working with her was HELL. The best choice he made was to resign to get NC. I have NO doubt that we would be at least spearated by now had he not.


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> The association to a drug addict definitely applies and therefore best to divorce the cheater.



Suppose an affair is like drugs that you become addicted to. But don't you have to "do" drugs several times before becoming addicted. A fog may be defined as the after the fact state of mind ( chemical reactions in the brain, poor judgement etc., ) after they're involved in an affair. What do you call the state of mind that caused them to get involved in the first place?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Fvstringpicker said:


> Suppose an affair is like drugs that you become addicted to. But don't you have to "do" drugs several times before becoming addicted. A fog may be defined as the after the fact state of mind ( chemical reactions in the brain, poor judgement etc., ) after they're involved in an affair. What do you call the state of mind that caused them to get involved in the first place?


Poor boundaries and ignorance of how an affair starts.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Yep exactly, there is no excuse to start it, you start it because you wanted to. I admitted that yes with lots of excuses of being unhappy but I chose it.. Bad choice? Hell yeah, shoulda got on hubbys butt about what I wasn't happy about and did MC but I didn't 100 percent my fault. Hate that I can't go back and do it right but I'm trying now, It's all I can do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

I like your explanation best of all CSS. No bullsh** about not knowing what you were doing because of a fog, no excuses, you own it. You weren't happy, took the wrong turn, and that was that. That's what I did. I got addicted but I could have quit any time I wanted to. I wanted to go back because it was pleasurable and fun. I knew exactly what I was doing. No wait, I take that back. There was this mist and when I breathed it in, I lost all control and didn't know what I was doing. It was like something possessed me. It must have been those all no good women who I seduced, errrrrr..... seduced me.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Fvstringpicker said:


> I like your explanation best of all CSS. No bullsh** about not knowing what you were doing because of a fog, no excuses, you own it. You weren't happy, took the wrong turn, and that was that. That's what I did. I got addicted but I could have quit any time I wanted to. I wanted to go back because it was pleasurable and fun. I knew exactly what I was doing. No wait, I take that back. There was this mist and when I breathed it in, I lost all control and didn't know what I was doing. It was like something possessed me. It must have been those all no good women who I seduced, errrrrr..... seduced me.


I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. It's just hard for me to explain. I am very ashamed for what I did.. I honestly am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

Not sarcastic. Like I said, you weren't happy, you took a wrong turn trying to deal with it. As best I can tell, you're not trying to mitigate the choices you willfully made. I did a poor job of separating your situation from me using myself as an example to illustrate my observation about the "fog".


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

K sorry sometimes it's hard to read people on here.. all I can do is give total honesty because without that we get nowhere. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

At first I did believe in the fog but now I'm not so sure.You still have controle over you actions and to see what you are doing to your spouse,the pain you are causing to him and your family and to just keep doing what you doing for your own selfish fun.UGH!!
How can you not care about the consequences,the fallout?The people you abandon and for what? So you could have a little fun.
In my opinion it is the BS who pays the consequences and has to do all the clean up and dirty work afterwards.....Not f-n fair or right...
God d*mn it,why????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> Sara,
> 
> This statement is simply not correct. My wife Morrigan had an affair and we reconciled. The trust was rebuilt because we worked at it every day and continue to do so. Marriage is a living breathing thing. It requires attention and nourishment. If you are consciously and actively feeding your marriage the chances of one partner or the other falling into an affair are remote. My wife is a former wayward spouse. Could she cheat again. Sure she could. I could also cheat. You could cheat. Anyone can cheat. But if you educate yourself on how affairs begin and set up appropriate boundaries then you can avoid falling into that trap. I trust my wife at least as much as I ever have. But I also do not look at my marriage or relationships in general through rose colored glasses. When Morrigan cheated it killed the fairy tale marriage ideas I had but it opened my eyes to what an adult relationship is and how fantastic it can be if one is willing to work on it.


Sorry, beowoulf. 

Talk to me in five years from now. 

I know a ton of attorneys I met through my former work and they have mentioned that at the root of most divorces is one cheating spouse. 

And, Know I would not cheat. MCs have actually mentioned to my husband that I was being neglected by him more than he by me, yet I did not cheat. 

YEs, you are right, a marriage is a living breathing thing and even some experienced psychiatrists say that the loyal spouse is typically giving more than the cheater. 

My STBEH is a cake eater. He even told an MC that he felt male entitlement to have an affair. What was the OWs excuse. Is she just hot and horned out. Cheaters are typically the selfish ones in the marriage and the loyal spouse the giver. 

The OW in my situation has a loyal loving too trusting spouse who works his butt off to keep up her lavish lifestyle, and she is out who&%ring around during the day and some evenings and weekends, while bad mouthing the poor sucker.

I have had plenty of opportunity to cheat with very attractive successful men. 

I never too anyone up on the opportunity. 

I even considered a revenge affair briefly but the thought disgusts me. 

You are going with your gut, I am going by the stats from experienced divorce attorneys. 

A woman or man may take the spouse back initially because their self esteem is low and they are blindsided and wounded. 

But after things go back to normal and the post affair honeymoon phase is over. The loyal spouse starts to become very resentful.

Don't speak for me please by telling me specifically that I would cheat. Because the thought of cheating really disgusts me.

Also, there are a growing number of psychiatrists who claim that cheating is a form of aggression and emotional abuse. 

In addition, a high proportion of cheaters suffer from NPD or BPD or HPD, all of which are very difficult to cure. Therefore the likelihood they will reoffend is very high. 

Maybe they will simply have learned how to be more deceptive after being outed once.

I read your history of the affair. I believe your wife had sex with you after seeing in the other man. 

So, she looked you in the eye and lied and then exposed you to an STD by having sex with you, after seeing the OM. 

My STBEH also looked me in the eye and lied numerous times. I can't get past that. 

If you can, more power to you. But I am not taking the chance with a known liar and cheater. 

IMO, too, part of the reason cheating is on the rise is that too many people forgive their spouse or let it go at lease initially. 

BTW the only reason I found out is someone clued me in, my STBEH never confessed.

Also, you seem to be implying (which is blaming the victim) that I was not willing to try. 

Well, wrong. I did try. Then I found out more lies and more things that I did not know about my STBEH.

They say the more you trusted the cheater, the more damaging it is. 

I found out things about my husband that I never thought possible. It has destroyed my trust forever, as it should


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Sorry, beowoulf.
> 
> Talk to me in five years from now.
> 
> ...


Stranger things have happend,people you thought would never do such a thing have,it could be WAY out of character for them.
The question I think is are they deserving of forgivness,some are,some are not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I believe circumstances come into play,how long was it? PA or EA or both? Did they come clean on their own? Did they tell others what they did without any prompting? Do they see what a stupid and bad choice they made? Is the remorse real? Were they actively seeking an affair?
This is'nt cut and dry.
I'm still not sure about the R I'm in with my WW,taking it day by day.Lawyers may offer stats but they cant give you stats on feelings or predict the future of certain couples
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> At first I did believe in the fog but now I'm not so sure.You still have controle over you actions and to see what you are doing to your spouse,the pain you are causing to him and your family and to just keep doing what you doing for your own selfish fun.UGH!!
> How can you not care about the consequences,the fallout?The people you abandon and for what? So you could have a little fun.
> In my opinion it is the BS who pays the consequences and has to do all the clean up and dirty work afterwards.....Not f-n fair or right...
> God d*mn it,why????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I just had a lightbulb moment! Of course it is the BS who does the heavy pulling!

The WS has fallen in a ditch. They have to be pulled out. Only their BS can do this for them. It's not fair, but that's what happens. S**t! That realisation made me tear up, again.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Fvstringpicker said:


> Suppose an affair is like drugs that you become addicted to. But don't you have to "do" drugs several times before becoming addicted. A fog may be defined as the after the fact state of mind ( chemical reactions in the brain, poor judgement etc., ) after they're involved in an affair. What do you call the state of mind that caused them to get involved in the first place?


In my case? An untreated depression from my wife's affair. I felt I could not get counselling for the reasons I said above) and I just bumbled along until I did something very wrong.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I think I just had a lightbulb moment! Of course it is the BS who does the heavy pulling!
> 
> The WS has fallen in a ditch. They have to be pulled out. Only their BS can do this for them. It's not fair, but that's what happens. S**t! That realisation made me tear up, again.


Ya know Matt,that makes sense,once again youre alright......for a Brit 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

A WS who is remorseful also has work alot of work to do otherwise the marriage would never work
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

sara8,

My reconciliation occurred 20 years ago. I personally know other people who reconciled and recovered from infidelity many years ago. It is possible for a marriage to recover from infidelity. I don't doubt that many divorces are due to infidelity. But couples that reconcile don't divorce now do they. Each person must make their own judgement call on how they handle betrayal. Betrayal can mean many things, not just infidelity. What about the spouse that goes for years, sometimes decades without sex. That is a betrayal. What about a spouse that has to endure physical or mental abuse. That is a betrayal. What about a spouse that has to endure living with a partner with a substance abuse issue. That is a betrayal. Many people can overcome these betrayals and rebuild their marriages. Many cannot. Its a personal choice and no one can criticize or judge another's actions. I chose to give Morrigan another chance. She has never disappointed me in these 20 years. She took responsibility for what she'd done and has worked very hard to regain my trust and rekindle my love. I joined this forum specifically to show people that it can be done if both parties want it to happen. Its not always successful but it sometimes is. In truth both spouses have to work very hard to recover from infidelity but in much different ways. It all depends on each person and if they want it to work.

As for the original question of the fog. No it does not provide an excuse for the actions of the wayward spouse. But it certainly does explain where some of the behavior comes from and how these things can manifest. I suggest that you read any of the works of Dr. Helen Fisher if you want to understand the dynamics of the human mating system and how dopamine, oxytocin, and vasopressin can affect a person's judgement and personality. I don't deal in assumptions, I deal in facts. And the fact is there is a fog, it does cloud the judgement of wayward spouses, and it does NOT excuse their actions.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

That's just what Morrigan said as well. She didn't know who she was during that time period. Everything that happened during that period when she was in her affair got twisted in her mind. She doesn't recognize that person and she's repeatedly said for these last 20 years that if she saw that person she would stab her right in the chest. Just looking in her eyes I know the pain she feels. Its the same pain I felt when I found out.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

highwood said:


> This is one of those things that I have never understood about H's EA especially between DD#1 and DD#2...how can someone who is generally a nice, decent person continue behind my back all the while telling me that he loved me, etc. continue on with his online EA with no guilt? I have asked H about it many times and he has said even though he knew logically it was wrong there was something addicting about it?
> 
> I don't understand what could be so addicting about stupid chat with someone online????
> 
> ...




Please stay on this topic!!! Further derailments may result in banning. Some of you may want to start new threads.


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