# What does it mean?



## QTom (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi,

I recently started having suspicions about my wife. It didn't arise from usual patterns. What happened is that we were on shaky grounds for a few years, and then, for no apparent reason, she started being much nicer towards me. I guess I should have been grateful about it (and in some sense I am), but something didn't feel right.

One night she forgot her email open, and I noticed a lot of emails exchanged with an ex-colleague of hers. Nothing really compromising, or obvious in these emails, but what looks like a strong friendship starting (a lot of jokes, like when we started dating, comments like 'I didn't hear from you for a few days, I was starting to get worried', or 'I will have time to see you, or I will make time [at work]'. I also realised they started having semi-regular lunch together. Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against her having lunch, or befriending, male colleagues, but here something feels strange as the friendship seems very strong (much more so I would say than with any of her girlfriends). She never told me she was having lunches with that guy (although she told me about other colleagues she was meeting at lunch time), and only told me about that guy once or twice with semi derogatory terms). Some details in the emails are funny, like her taking credit, or responsibility (things such as cooking), for things I actually did. Then there was never any mention of me, but once which seemed to result in an immediate 1 week hiatus in their correspondence.

This week I found out they were planning lunch together tomorrow. Today I quizzed her indirectly about it. I asked whether we would have lunch together tomorrow, and she replied she had a meeting. I pushed a bit, and she told me she would have lunch with some other male ex-colleague (lying about it). When pushed a bit more re location of the lunch she then again lied. Funny thing is that at the same time she was very lovely with me, even talking about possibility of having a 2nd child (she was always very much opposed to that idea to my regrets).

Now I don't really now what to do... First it is not nice doubting her, and looking at her emails, but it is not quite acceptable that she lies (or at least hides) things from me. I am now considering checking the restaurant where she will have lunch tomorrow, and maybe confront her. But is that a good idea?

Sometimes I am just wondering whether I am just imagining something that didn't happen, but other times I just get that knot in my stomach... 

What would you do?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

If you truly want to know what she is doing, you are going to have to play private eye. Install a keylogger on your computer, a few VAR (voice activated recorders) placed underneath the seat of her car and in the home near phones, and a GPS to track her whereabouts.

Buy Dr Shirley Glass PhD book titled 'Not Just Friends' and read it. Show it to your wife and leave it in plain sight so hopefully she'll become curious enough to read it herself and open her eyes that what she is doing is crossing marital boundaries (i.e. having personal conversations with a man other than her husband, lying to her husband about why she can't have lunch with him, etc.). She is or on the verge of having an EA (emotional affair) which could eventually become a full blown affair.

Come here often for emotional support and advice.


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

morituri said:


> If you truly want to know what she is doing, you are going to have to play private eye. Install a keylogger on your computer, a few VAR (voice activated recorders) placed underneath the seat of her car and in the home near phones, and a GPS to track her whereabouts.
> 
> Buy Dr Shirley Glass PhD book titled 'Not Just Friends' and read it. Show it to your wife and leave it in plain sight so hopefully she'll become curious enough to read it herself and open her eyes that what she is doing is crossing marital boundaries (i.e. having personal conversations with a man other than her husband, lying to her husband about why she can't have lunch with him, etc.). She is or on the verge of having an EA (emotional affair) which could eventually become a full blown affair.
> 
> Come here often for emotional support and advice.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

It's really pointless offering advice after Morituri, he hits it out of the park every time. Take his advice.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Anything is fair in love and war----you do what you gotta do

Since she is openly lying to you, and you know it----figure out someway to get over there, stay hidden, and watch, and follow, if they go elsewhere---If she doesn't show up there, then she is on to you, and maybe be doing things at a physical level

She is being nice to you, so you won't become suspicious, she wants you pleased, and out of her hair

Watch yourself---your wife knows how to cheat


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sudden change in mood is a red flag. Referring to a male friend who she obviously likes a great deal in derogatory terms is another.

As Morituri said, you have to snoop. When you have the evidence you need, you need to make a choice. Will you accept your wife crossing the line with another man or not? If not, you have to confront her and be willing to end the marriage if she doesn't end her contact with this guy.

And you should get cracking on this. Time is not your friend. If you can catch her quickly, it may be a slight EA. If you wait too long, it will get physical.


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## Shamwow (Aug 15, 2011)

Time is of the essence, yes. But try not to confront her too soon with something she can contradict easily. She knows how to lie. Expect it at this point...sorry. For example, if she isn't at the restaurant today and you don't know where she went, then don't confront her about knowing she didn't do lunch w so and so (the other male colleague she used as a red herring in her story), based on some emails. But if you DO see her and the OM in question (the one she's emailing) at lunch, snap a pic or two if you can. Something she can't refute. Then ask her how lunch was w the red herring. If she spins yarns about it and you know she's lying, simply ask "Why are you lying to me about who you had lunch with?" she'll get scared, deny, and then you ask again. Don't show her the proof right away, try to make her admit it on her own first.

Because at this point you see the clock ticking and may be freaking out that a PA may already be going on, you don't want to let it happen by being too late. But proof is essential to break the fog she's in. I wouldn't just go to the restaurant, I would follow her from work before lunch. If god forbid "lunch" is at a hotel or his place, you have a worst case scenario on your hands, and you can only presume it's happened before, and you're too late to stop it. In that case, just try not to go crazy and get arrested for assault...

Point is not to wait until they actually cheat for proof, but to catch her directly lying to you and then confront her with the evidence. You already know she lied to you, she will again. You did very well by baiting her about the lunch date, instead of showing her all your cards first. Keep it up and you'll be able to make headway without her being tipped off and taking it further underground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow (Aug 15, 2011)

Those emails you saw, the ones that weren't "too compromising" but suspicious...that's exactly what I saw to first make me suspect my W of an affair. A little more digging and it was all too clear. Good luck, hoping for the best.

Also, is this guy married? Once you have a little more proof, you could consider contacting his wife to ask if she knows her hubby is doing (whatever your proof is, secret lunches, inappropriate emails, etc) with your wife, and that your wife is lying to you about it. But make sure your proof is solid, as you'll be opening a pandora's box.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

to add to SW

even if your proof is solid beware of her trying to gaslight and blameshift and be prepared for it

(gaslighting is twisting the truth to make you seem crazy, blameshifting is saying that your actions caused her to have an affair)


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

QTom said:


> What happened is that we were on shaky grounds for a few years, and then, for no apparent reason, she started being much nicer towards me. I guess I should have been grateful about it (and in some sense I am), but something didn't feel right.


Sudden change in personality and attitude are a *red flag* when taken in combination with the other red flags below. At first, my fWW suddenly got nice too. In some cases, as the emotional Affair (EA) progresses, that may change.



QTom said:


> One night she forgot her email open, and I noticed a lot of emails exchanged with an ex-colleague of hers. Nothing really compromising, or obvious in these emails, but what looks like a strong friendship starting (a lot of jokes, like when we started dating, comments like 'I didn't hear from you for a few days, I was starting to get worried', or 'I will have time to see you, or I will make time [at work]'.


These are overly friendly for work emails for sure. This is where it starts. Soon the flirting usually starts. I know I can see the sexual tension in these words.



QTom said:


> I also realised they started having semi-regular lunch together. Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against her having lunch, or befriending, male colleagues, but here something feels strange as the friendship seems very strong (much more so I would say than with any of her girlfriends). She never told me she was having lunches with that guy (although she told me about other colleagues she was meeting at lunch time),


Secretive lunches alone together are another *red flag*. Secrecy is the key ingredient in any affair, emotional or physical. You know its wrong if you would not do this if your spouse was in the same room. 



QTom said:


> and only told me about that guy once or twice with semi derogatory terms).


Yet another *red flag* when it comes to workplace affairs. Either the WS speaks about the OP in derogatory terms like she did, or they suddenly stop speaking about the OP. In this case, she told you this about the OM in order to throw you off. You see it in other threads here, I think NZHappys wife described her OM as a jerk or something, yet she was having an affair with him.



QTom said:


> Some details in the emails are funny, like her taking credit, or responsibility (things such as cooking), for things I actually did.


She wants to make herself look good to the OM. Fortunately, she hasn't started demonizing you.....yet.



QTom said:


> This week I found out they were planning lunch together tomorrow. Today I quizzed her indirectly about it. I asked whether we would have lunch together tomorrow, and she replied she had a meeting. I pushed a bit, and she told me she would have lunch with some other male ex-colleague (lying about it). When pushed a bit more re location of the lunch she then again lied. Funny thing is that at the same time she was very lovely with me, even talking about possibility of having a 2nd child (she was always very much opposed to that idea to my regrets).


Lying to your face about her intended secret lunch rendezvous with the OM. Huge *red flag*.



QTom said:


> Now I don't really now what to do...


Everyone above is giving the correct advice.



QTom said:


> Sometimes I am just wondering whether I am just imagining something that didn't happen, but other times I just get that knot in my stomach...
> 
> What would you do?


No, you're not imagining things. Your gut is screaming at you that something is going on, and your gut is almost always right when it comes to this. Looking at all the red flags displayed here, your wife is in a full on Emotional Affair (EA). 

How to Read Emotional Affair Signs 

Like everyone else has said, you now have cause to conduct further investigation. Her behaviors have put the marriage at risk, and yes, it is at risk. EAs almost always progress to Physical Affairs (PA), especially if they work in close proximity or live in the general area. You see, all this sexual tension (they may not even know it themselves yet) starts to build up. Then the secret phone calls, emails, texting, starts and they begin flirting. Before they realize it, they're in the affair fog. Pretty soon, they feel like they're in love (fog), and the texting/chatting, etc, are not enough and they will take it to the next level....sex.

You have to investigate, but you CANNOT confront yet, as you don't have enough evidence just yet and she can throw you the *CLASSIC LINE....*.*WE'RE JUST FRIENDS*. She will say you're just jealous and possibly crazy (gas lighting). Therefore you have to hold off a little bit on confrontation and start investigating.

This means installing a keylogger or some other computer monitoring software on the computer. Something stealthy and undetectable. You can try the free ones, but you get what you pay for. Here's a link to the top rated ones:

Best Computer Monitoring Software 2011 | Reviews, Ratings & More

She may have secret email accounts that you don't know of yet. But at this stage of the EA from what you've described, its not there just yet. But it soon will be.

If she has a smart phone, you can try phone monitoring software that will allow you to track her location via GPS, listen in on conversations in near real time because the smartphone becomes a listening device. You would be able to actually hear what they're talking about during these secret lunches. Here's some links:

Mobile Spy - Monitor SMS Text Messages, Call Info and GPS Locations on iPhone, BlackBerry, Android, Windows Mobile and Symbian OS Smartphones. Spy Software for Monitoring your Cell Phone

MobiStealth | Spy Mobile Phone Software, Cell Phone Spy Monitoring, GPS Location Tracking App For $39.99 | iPhone, Blackberry, Android, Symbian/Nokia Spyware

If she has an iPhone, you can check the iTunes back up folder when she syncs it with the computer. If she doesn't have a smartphone, you might want to try a Voice Activated Recorder (VAR). You can stick it under her car seat using industrial strength velcro. Unfortunately, if OM is the one driving and using his vehicle, then you might not get a hit. But you will be able to record their conversations if she's talking with him on the phone on the drive home. Here's some examples:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Philips+-+Voice+Tracer+Digital+Voice+Recorder/2596305.p?id=1218338417967&skuId=2596305

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-ICD-BX8112-Digital-Flash-Voice-Recorder/16207340

For the Sony one, it's cheaper online and the add say in store price may vary, which is very true. I saw that exact model at my Wal Mart for $59, but you can order it online for $39. 

You haven't mentioned her cell phone habits yet. Any unusual cell phone activity? Does she guard her phone or password protect it? Any unusual amount of calls or texts to an unknown number?


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I've been on these sites for too long. I'm glad you came here and asked this question, but is it really possible to be confused about what is going on? My second post in a row where the OP claims it was different, then recited the playbook word for word.

She lied to you about seeing a man that she has been lying to you about seeing...or something like that.

You've got to spy. GREAT work to not tip your hand too early. But gather evidence then nip this in the bud. If you confront without better evidence, you WILL get the "we're only friends" and "you can't tell me who I can be friends with" routine. Just skip ahead in the playbook. It's there.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

If you do confront her at lunch make sure you play it off as coinsidence. Approach her and give her a big kiss and tell her how much you love her. Play this off and show the OM you are very much in love. 

Do not fly of the handle, there is no solid proof she did nothing wrong. Well except for lying, for her that want be noth compared to what she's really doing.

If you have the dough I suggest a PI.

Bottom line is trust your gut and quitely investigate this. I did and when I confronted my wife with hard proof, there was no other choice but for her to come clean and face the tough road to dealing with her unhealthy behavior. 

It took a while, she even sweared on our kids that she wasn't cheating, but when you have it in black and white, it brought her fantasy, her second life crumbling down around her. Only then did the both of us face the reality of it and with that we were able to come to terms with it. For years we both blow it off, spiraling down to were it got so bad she was sneaking out in the middle of the night.

The fact is the both of you do not want to face the evil and ughly reality of infidelity until its looking at the both of you sqaure in the face on a 8-1/2x11 sheet of paper or a 4x6 colored glossy.

This crap is just way to painful to accept. For you its hard to face that its being done to you, and for your wife its hard for her to face that she is even doing it. 

Find the truth and confront it, blow it wide open and spare head this with every thing you got. Trust me its not worth sweeping it under the carpet, it always seems to come back and bite you in the @ss.

You have a right to know how commited your wife is, so don't ask her, find out for your self so the both of you can address it on an even playing field.


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## QTom (Sep 13, 2011)

G'day,

Thanks for all your replies although they don't feel that reassuring. At this stage part of me wants to believe I am just imagining, or misinterpreting, things... Also it doesn't feel right fighting deception (potential EA) with deception (spying, tracking, ...). But then, I don't want the situation to escalate and lose all trust, as it is a very important part of the relationship.

I guess I'll check what's happening at lunch time, and see from there. I don't think I'll confront them on the spot, as I don't want to fight for her with OM. At the end of the day, it will be her decision, and I'll have to go with that. I mean, I really don't want to lose her, but won't pursue marriage if trust is broken.

Sorry for the rumble, I didn't sleep quite well last night.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Ah, the initial stage: shock and denial. You need to understand that it isn't deception by monitoring your spouse. She has ALREADY broken that trust. You are also going to need those methods if you decide to reconcile in order to verify NC and that she maintains NC. That's how trust is rebuilt after a betrayal like this, by checking everyday and finding nothing going on. This isn't some random forum on the internet, this is an infidelity forum where most of us here have been there, done that. You should read the other threads in the forum, find out for yourself.

If you feel that investigating is wrong and deceitful and that you're imagining things, then good luck finding out the truth. I'm outtie.


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## Lostouthere (Aug 24, 2011)

Qtom you can bet no one on this board is going to give you bad advice. And it could be that deep down your worried about what you might find out, but you would be much better off knowing for sure.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

Oh, if I would have listened to my gut. Does she keep her phone in a deathgrip?


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

Dude! SHe lied to you about lunch! I believe that's a breach of trust right there! There's a saying, if your gut is telling you something isn't right, then your gut is usually right. There's nothing wrong with checking out about what's going on in your wife's life. Especially after you catch her in a lie! You have EVERY RIGHT to know about what's going on in your marriage.


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## Shamwow (Aug 15, 2011)

Good luck QTom, you'll know a lot very soon. Good or bad, let us know, you'll get through this either way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QTom (Sep 13, 2011)

Thought I would update on the situation. First I want to thank you all for your replies, it has been really helpful to help me in my reality check process.
I confronted her about the lunch with OM, and she started by repeating the same lies. She then partially admitted truth, but kept lying about other aspects (female colleague was present). Funny thing is that at the same time she was telling me 'It's not what you think, I didn't have an affair', even before I brought the affair word to the conversation.
The next days, we made progress towards the truth: Things were not going well between us (I agree, with faults (mistakes?) on both sides). Meeting with OM was making her feel good about herself. She (from the first confrontation) said she won't contact or see him again. Nothing happened between them. She agrees we should work on our marriage, and avoid previous pitfall. She apologised (once) about lying, and has been (acting?) very much in love with me.
Now I am still in a confused phase. I want to recover my trust in her as otherwise our relationship will be flawed (I don't see myself swooping on her), and I really want things to go well between us (sometimes thinking this could actually help our marriage by exposing, and correcting, what was wrong between us). At the same time, I cannot avoid worrying: Is she going to stop seeing OM, or will she just bring it deeper underground now that she knows I know? Of course I could not stand that. Will she tell me it is over between us, and she needs out? Also I don't want this to happen, it would be better than hiding, and easier to work on in the future for the sake of our kid. Will we get back to quickly together and resume the bad things that were destroying our couple? This would be quite bad, and maybe then it would be better for her (and me at some point) to start a new loving relationship.
I guess all I can do is talk, talk and talk some more with her. I will also need to find a way to forgive the lies, but it is difficult whilst I fear their might still be others...


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't know dude. I would act normal but keep looking around...


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Be vigilant. Install keylogger, VAR and GPS to verify that she's truly maintaining no contact.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

QTom, you sound in a daze man.

You absolutely MUST check out what she`s doing or you`re going to be hurting for real very soon.

Have you checked her phone records?Is she in contact with him by cell phone?
How much contact?
If you can`t get to her phone records get to her phone.
Find any texts sent or replied?
How many calls to him?

Have you checked to see if she`s where she should be when she should be?

Her e-mail?

Anything?

Dude you`ve been warned, the people telling you to do these things know what they are speaking of.

Ignore their advice at your own peril and possible destruction of your marriage.


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## loveiswhereiamnot (Jul 8, 2011)

QTom, trust but verify. Those good feelings are addictive, someone finds you hot and interesting, and the feel-good chemicals are amazing, it's that crush/falling-in-love thing. Halting those chemicals is painful, and that's why they reach back out to the other person who makes them feel so darn good and special and new and shiny.

I'm sure she does intend to stop contact, until she misses that feeling, and then you don't know what she'll do. Follow the great advice - key logger, VAR in the car, check cell phone texting and phone calls.

If she stops contact, great, you've verified it, and you know you can trust what she says. If not, then you know, and you can halt this. Better to stop it now before it goes further.

People in the throes of the first blush of cheating and beyond, either emotional or physical, lie. They lie and lie and lie and lie. It's not her, it's the script. The more you are familiar with it, the more tools you have to fight it.

good luck, you came to the right place. I hope she means it and it's over and y'all are on your way to making your marriage great!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

QTom said:


> I guess all I can do is talk, talk and talk some more with her. I will also need to find a way to forgive the lies, but it is difficult whilst I fear their might still be others...


You don't have to rely on talking exclusively. You can also verify her statements by spying on her. That's the way to rebuild trust.

If you don't want to do that, I guess you should just hope for the best.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> You don't have to rely on talking exclusively. You can also verify her statements by spying on her. That's the way to rebuild trust.
> 
> If you don't want to do that, I guess you should just hope for the best.


Of all the threads like this I read, hoping for the best failed miserably. 

Either follow the advise (depends on how much you want to stay married) or go ahead and lawyer up. 

Also go here and read up......

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

Protecting your family is your number one responsibility. Do what you have to do and don't let the other man make a fool of you.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Read the warning in lostcpa's thread: 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/31959-false-recovery.html

Ignore everyone's advice at your own peril. Otherwise you may be back here in a couple of months posting about how your WW had resumed contact with her OM and now you're getting the "I LOVE YOU BUT I'M NOT IN LOVE WITH YOU" speech.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Yes, trust BUT verify.

Having opposite sex friends where you meet them for lunch alone is not a good idea. These become dates and I personally am against my wife dating anyone but me. Essentially these friends start meeting each others emotional needs in a seemingly innocent fashion. The key is to shut these down before they are deep in an EA or are at the motel together. It seems you are doing this. Awesome.

I suggest in addition to the other things that have been well covered you guys do His Needs Her Needs. This helps with vulnerabilities to affairs by meeting each others needs. This helps but even good marriages can fall prey to EAs like these. The next part of HNHN is to discuss, define and agree upon boundaries. You need to define the boundaries as it relates to the opposite sex. I suggest that you guys not have close opposite sex friends like she has done. Some folks claim they can do this. I can't personally. I proved that. Your wife proved this is a bad idea for her as well. I think this is true for most folks. These type of needs should be met by your spouse. 

So meeting each others needs combined with having good boundaries and transparency ( trust but verify ) go a very long way with avoiding these types of situations. Blind trust, wishful thinking and conflict avoidance do not get it done.

Good luck.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Read the warning in lostcpa's thread:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/31959-false-recovery.html
> 
> Ignore everyone's advice at your own peril. Otherwise you may be back here in a couple of months posting about how your WW had resumed contact with her OM and now you're getting the "I LOVE YOU BUT I'M NOT IN LOVE WITH YOU" speech.


Default False Recovery
I posted a couple of times on here about 6 months ago soon after d-day. I read a few threads and thought I had learned enough to handle things on my own. My ww was begging for reconciliation and doing everything she could to make amends, so I decided to jump in and do my best to recover our marriage. I am proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I thought everything was moving along really well until it all unraveled a few weeks ago.

While she did and said all the right things to keep me committed and working on the marriage, she was busy taking the affair deeper underground and continuing it right under my nose. I found a prepaid cellphone hidden behind some boxes in our basement on Labor Day that she was using to talk and text him. I didn’t tell her that I found it and decided instead to do some digging before confronting her. I installed a keylogger on her laptop and found a secret email account that included dozens of dirty emails and pictures between the two of them.

But that’s not the worst part. My Dr. prescribed Ambien for me soon after d-day 1 because I was having a hard time getting any sleep. She used that fact that when I took the Ambien I would sleep soundly through the night to meet up with OM. His wife travels regularly on business and when she was out of town and I was knocked out in bed, she would meet him in our basement to continue their PA. I found this out by reading the deleted emails on the secret account.

I am posting this as a warning to any BS who will listen. Do not believe a word your WS says. If they are speaking, they are lying at least in the beginning. If I had been more diligent to keep digging and checking up on her I wouldn’t have wasted 6 months on a false recovery. Please verify, verify, and verify again anything your WS tells you.

I thank those of you who tried to help me before and apologize for posting and running and not following up. If I had kept posting, I might have actually learned something and not found myself in this hole I’m in now.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Blind trust is how you got here in the 1st place now you want to do it again?
Verify her words, she lied before she can lie again. 

It makes no sense in continuing this marriage they way you still feel. She could for sure give up her old ways but you are taking a big big chance by not investigating her commitment.

Sweeping this under the carpet by have this blind trust and in the same breath have the gut feeling that you do not for sure know if it is still going on is maddening.

Do not put your self through this, simply do your own investiagtion to see if you are still being betrayed.

At the very least protect your self by validating for your self that you are not getting screwed over *again*.

Your W lost all her rights with the lies of the past, protect your self by confirming that she has truelly changed her ways, you owe it to your self.

Would you give out your personal information with out validating the true intent of what this information will be used for? So do you not want to validate how you as a man, are going to be used, especially by your wife?


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