# Equality: Fact or Fiction?



## Noman (Oct 17, 2014)

What is the true nature of equality in a marriage?

If one spouse is the Head of Household or one spouse is Dom while the other is Sub, are they _truly _equal?

Certainly everyone in the WORLD deserves equality: all should be treated with respect and dignity. The Golden Rule applies nicely here.

On a commercial jet there are two pilots, both trained to fly the plane, but one is the Captain & the other is the First Officer. The Captain is ultimately responsible for the plane & the First Officer is subordinate, they are not equals.

In the _Married Man's Sex Life Primer_, Athol Kay uses this analogy as his ideal model for a marriage. Typically the husband is the Captain, while the wife is the First Officer.

So, assuming this model is valid & exists (and _please_ don't reply if you don't agree, you just muck up the thread), how can a husband & wife truly be equals?

And to whoever the Troll Whisperer is, I am not Trolling, although I do expect to stir up a hornets nest.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

On a fundamental level, I don't really believe in equality. And I don't know that I understand the push to try and force it. It's not going to work. Every single person on the planet will never be 'equal'. Unless it's under tyranny, and we're all pretending.

Now, to me, that's completely different from respect and dignity. I can show every person I meet respect and treat them with dignity - regardless of their circumstances or who they are.

But no one is equal.

I'll never be a princess. Or a rock star. Or even a highly desirable woman.

But I'll also probably never be a slave. Or destitute. Or terrified by a violent husband.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Noman said:


> What is the true nature of equality in a marriage?
> 
> If one spouse is the Head of Household or one spouse is Dom while the other is Sub, are they _truly _equal?
> 
> ...


I think the Captain/First officer dynamic is a valid comparison. I don't think a couple can ever be 100% equal in family leadership. My wife has a say in everything and I won't just shut her down, but ultimately she looks to me to lead the family and lead her.

Let me be clear, I don't see her as any less important than me in the relationship. This is where I think husband and wife are equals, we are equal in importance to the family. However, someone has to fill the role as the leader.

Also worth noting, is the wife could be the captain and the husband the first officer. However, I'm skeptical that this dynamic will result in a long lasting relationship. I believe most women are looking for strong, male leadership in their relationship and without it I fear they lose respect for their husband which leads to all kinds of relationship problems.


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## Noman (Oct 17, 2014)

minimalME said:


> On a fundamental level, I don't really believe in equality...But I'll also probably never be a slave. Or destitute. Or terrified by a violent husband.





BigDaddyNY said:


> I think the Captain/First officer dynamic is a valid comparison...I believe most women are looking for strong, male leadership in their relationship and without it I fear they lose respect for their husband which leads to all kinds of relationship problems.


Wow, two really good posts & I see a lot of truth in both of them.

You both get an A+ (Just kidding with ya, but I _will_ give you a gold star, if that floats your boat. A foil one, not real gold.)


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

There's an old saying and you can take it from there. Women control half the money and all the puzzy.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

There's nothing equal in this universe. two quarks of the same element will have a difference in its gluons. So are relationships; equality will be determined by the forces of economics, gender's character, and social pressures to determine what equality is considered between the couple; which can be anything, from outright slavery to a balanced stasis with spikes one way or another for some circumstances.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Perfect equality is probably not achievable when n > 1 in any relationship.

Where people fall down in my opinion on this forum is in believing that the only (necessarily) proper unequal arrangement is where the man must be the captain and the wife the first officer. That the only possibly successful unequal arrangement is to have the man in charge. 

Which is, IMHO, complete crap.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think the Captain/First officer dynamic is a valid comparison. I don't think a couple can ever be 100% equal in family leadership. My wife has a say in everything and I won't just shut her down, but ultimately she looks to me to lead the family and lead her.
> 
> Let me be clear, I don't see her as any less important than me in the relationship. This is where I think husband and wife are equals, we are equal in importance to the family. However, someone has to fill the role as the leader.
> 
> Also worth noting, is the wife could be the captain and the husband the first officer. However, I'm skeptical that this dynamic will result in a long lasting relationship. I believe most women are looking for strong, male leadership in their relationship and without it I fear they lose respect for their husband which leads to all kinds of relationship problems.


This ☝ exactly. I used to be a "What ever you want/think baby" hubby. I defered to her in all things. In efferct made her the captian of the ship. She was miserable and stressed as she felt if she ship ran aground it would be because of her decision. I do not think women should be subjected to that kind of stress in a marriage. 

We gotto a breaking point in our relationahip where we started to actually communicate. I took tge helm, which she was happy to give up. She is much happier and soo much stress has been taken off her. Ourmarriage has improved 500%. I make final decisions on things but rely heavily on her counsel and input. 

We are very much a team, but i have final decision standing. At the same time, if i make the wrong decision, I am ultimately responsible...and own that decision. That is the way God intended it to be. Man is supposed to be the leader in the marriage, he is also sopposed to love, nurture, provide for and protect his wife.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Perfect equality is probably not achievable when n > 1 in any relationship.
> 
> Where people fall down in my opinion on this forum is in believing that the only (necessarily) proper unequal arrangement is where the man must be the captain and the wife the first officer. That the only possibly successful unequal arrangement is to have the man in charge.
> 
> Which is, IMHO, complete crap.


There are always time where the 1s1st officer may be required to take tge helm if tge Captain is unavailable, out of commission, etc.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> There are always time where the 1s1st officer may be required to take tge helm if tge Captain is unavailable, out of commission, etc.


A man is every bit as qualified to take that roll of backup as a woman, depending on the man and woman. 

There doesn't have to be a one-size-fits-all solution to this problem. We had dinner last night with a happily married couple of 40 years. The wife is an over the top type A lawyer who attempts to be in charge of every situation, and who is clearly in the lead in their marriage.

It works for them. Who gets to say they're doing it wrong?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Cletus said:


> A man is every bit as qualified to take that roll of backup as a woman, depending on the man and woman.
> 
> There doesn't have to be a one-size-fits-all solution to this problem. We had dinner last night with a happily married couple of 40 years. The wife is an over the top type A lawyer who attempts to be in charge of every situation, and who is clearly in the lead in their marriage.
> 
> It works for them. Who gets to say they're doing it wrong?


Yeah, I agree. 

I have a question about all of these -- the man must be the leader relationships.

What does the woman who has sat back "feeling so good that someone else is in charge" for a few decades do in the event of divorce or death of her husband?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

It was never about equality.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I have a question about all of these -- the man must be the leader relationships.
> 
> What does the woman who has sat back "feeling so good that someone else is in charge" for a few decades do in the event of divorce or death of her husband?


In my marriage, it wasn't that I couldn't lead or that I expected my ex-husband to do it all, it's more that my leadership ended up being a covert contract that I did not agree to.

I went to my passive, then-husband and painstakingly discussed _everything_, so that we'd be in agreement about our family. But, as I discovered at about year 17, we weren't actually agreeing. He was hiding and being disingenuous, and when I divorced him, I was blamed.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Noman said:


> What is the true nature of equality in a marriage?
> 
> If one spouse is the Head of Household or one spouse is Dom while the other is Sub, are they _truly _equal?
> 
> ...


You don't want to hear from others that may have a differing perspective that yours?

How very one sided. I'm sure that will open a broad and open discussion, nor really.

Best of luck.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Most people who claim they want equality in their relationship or marriage, do not mean equality. What they mean is balance. And importantly, balance from their perspective, which may or may not appear as balance to the other party involved.

So ... the nature of true equality in marriage is a myth, or at best a facade agreed upon by the parties involved. It's 'equal' if it 'feels' that way, rather than actually is that way.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

We're equals, but we're not the same. We both have equal say in decisions, but one of us may have greater influence on a particular topic due to more experience, ability, training, or need. We don't split chores equally, but we usually take turns and handle things fairly. As @Deejo said, it's about balance. I lead on some things, she leads on others, and we can both step up and do the other's task if necessary, but maybe not as well.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> We're equals, but we're not the same. We both have equal say in decisions, but one of us may have greater influence on a particular topic due to more experience, ability, training, or need. *We don't split chores equally, but we usually take turns and handle things fairly.* As @Deejo said, it's about balance. I lead on some things, she leads on others, and we can both step up and do the other's task if necessary, but maybe not as well.


Yes! I wasn't looking for "equality" in my marriages/relationships, but I DID want *fairness*. 

What is equal is not always fair, and what's fair is not always equal.


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## mrcool46 (Sep 22, 2021)

Noman said:


> What is the true nature of equality in a marriage?
> 
> If one spouse is the Head of Household or one spouse is Dom while the other is Sub, are they _truly _equal?
> 
> ...


Yes they can be truly equal - They can both have their separate duties in the marriage and at the same be equal. It's figuring what how each one wants to live in the marriage thru communication. You must both agree on how you going to live. This may be very conservative or very liberal. Doesn't matter. My partner look at me as her white knight which is great. It makes me feel like a man, but on the other side of the coin I picked a queen who I can't live without. It doesn't matter who is dominant in the relationship as long as that works for both people


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Yeah, I agree.
> 
> I have a question about all of these -- the man must be the leader relationships.
> 
> What does the woman who has sat back "feeling so good that someone else is in charge" for a few decades do in the event of divorce or death of her husband?


She takes the helm of her own ship at that point. She is now alone.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

minimalME said:


> On a fundamental level, I don't really believe in equality. And I don't know that I understand the push to try and force it. It's not going to work. Every single person on the planet will never be 'equal'. Unless it's under tyranny, and we're all pretending.
> 
> Now, to me, that's completely different from respect and dignity. I can show every person I meet respect and treat them with dignity - regardless of their circumstances or who they are.
> 
> ...


I love your post but desirable is in the eye of the beholder.😉


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Noman said:


> What is the true nature of equality in a marriage?
> 
> If one spouse is the Head of Household or one spouse is Dom while the other is Sub, are they _truly _equal?
> 
> ...


Men and women are hardly equal but they are equally valuable. Thank God!

I'm a roughly two hundred pound engine of destruction and I have no desire to be with my twin.

Mrs. C is petite and cute which description I certainly don't fit and I thoroughly enjoy her inequality to me and vice versa.


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## Ladyrare (Aug 30, 2021)

Mr. Nail said:


> It was never about equality.


Yep, exactly!


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## Noman (Oct 17, 2014)

Rob_1 said:


> ...equality will be determined by the forces of economics, gender's character, and social pressures to determine what equality is considered between the couple...


@Rob_1 I wonder if we should be looking at two types of equality: a) Macro-Equality, and b) Micro-Equality.

Macro-Equality embraces the broad concept that everyone should be treated with dignity & respect.
Micro-Equality is what you are describing as it exists within the larger sphere of Macro-Equality.



Divinely Favored said:


> We are very much a team, but i have final decision standing. At the same time, if i make the wrong decision, I am ultimately responsible...and own that decision. That is the way God intended it to be. Man is supposed to be the leader in the marriage, he is also sopposed to love, nurture, provide for and protect his wife.


@Divinely Favored how does equality fit in your marriage? Does your wife regard you as her equal, or her superior? (And when I say 'Superior', I don't mean her better, just higher in rank.)



Cletus said:


> We had dinner last night with a happily married couple of 40 years. The wife is an over the top type A lawyer who attempts to be in charge of every situation, and who is clearly in the lead in their marriage.
> 
> It works for them. Who gets to say they're doing it wrong?


@Cletus it would interesting to know about their bedroom dynamics, if she's one of those "Power People" who like to be dominated in bed.



Livvie said:


> What does the woman who has sat back "feeling so good that someone else is in charge" for a few decades do in the event of divorce or death of her husband?


@Livvie that's a very good question.

In a Captain & First Officer relationship, no one should be "sitting back", both partners should be working together & both should be able to fly the plane. Flying the plane would include knowing about the finances, where the important papers are kept, etc.



minimalME said:


> In my marriage, it wasn't that I couldn't lead or that I expected my ex-husband to do it all, it's more that my leadership ended up being a covert contract that I did not agree to.
> 
> I went to my passive, then-husband and painstakingly discussed _everything_, so that we'd be in agreement about our family. But, as I discovered at about year 17, we weren't actually agreeing. He was hiding and being disingenuous, and when I divorced him, I was blamed.


@minimalME what was your expectation, that your husband would lead?



Deejo said:


> Most people who claim they want equality in their relationship or marriage, do not mean equality. What they mean is balance. And importantly, balance from their perspective, which may or may not appear as balance to the other party involved.
> 
> So ... the nature of true equality in marriage is a myth, or at best a facade agreed upon by the parties involved. It's 'equal' if it 'feels' that way, rather than actually is that way.


@Deejo Balance & Equality are almost synonymous, might be in some dictionaries.

So my take away here is that you can achieve equality in a marriage through communication and negotiation. Kind of like setting the trim on an airplane to make it fly straight.

Yes? No?



Married but Happy said:


> We're equals, but we're not the same. We both have equal say in decisions, but one of us may have greater influence on a particular topic due to more experience, ability, training, or need. We don't split chores equally, but we usually take turns and handle things fairly. As @Deejo said, it's about balance. I lead on some things, she leads on others, and we can both step up and do the other's task if necessary, but maybe not as well.


@Married but Happy, dude, you intrigue me so much. I would love to come to your house and follow you around for a few weeks. So, would you describe your marriage as egalitarian?



mathew_stok said:


> I don't believe in inequality. Especially in a relationship. We need to support, respect and cooperate with each other to have a healthy relationship.


@mathew_stok I think every relationship needs support, respect & cooperation, but that doesn't preclude one person leading the family.



ConanHub said:


> Men and women are hardly equal but they are equally valuable. Thank God!
> 
> I'm a roughly two hundred pound engine of destruction and I have no desire to be with my twin.
> 
> Mrs. C is petite and cute which description I certainly don't fit and I thoroughly enjoy her inequality to me and vice versa.


@ConanHub ick, I'm with you, I'll take petite over a 200 pound engine of destruction, ANY day.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> We're equals, but we're not the same. We both have equal say in decisions, but one of us may have greater influence on a particular topic due to more experience, ability, training, or need. We don't split chores equally, but we usually take turns and handle things fairly. As @Deejo said, it's about balance. I lead on some things, she leads on others, and we can both step up and do the other's task if necessary, but maybe not as well.


Exactly...my wife is an excell spreadsheet. genius and at one point wanted to be a CPA, so she does the finances and taxes. If i lost her i would be screwed. I do all the maintenance(home/vehicle) and yard maintenance. Both work flower beds. Both do kitchen /cook. She does laundry( dont do it way she does so i am told to stay our of laundry room) dont touch HER 😳 washer or dryer unless they need fixin'. But if she has concerns about finances she asks me and i make the decision. As i said, if the ship runs a ground, who is to blame? The one who made the decision. I take into account all sides and if i do not agree, my decision stands....as does the blame if it goes wrong. My wife does not want the responsibility for a wrong decision and knowing if a difficulty is brought on the family, she is at fault for the errant decision. She is hyper critical of herself like many women and i have been working hard at fixing that. So i make the final decision as it takes the guilt off her plate.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

Cletus said:


> A man is every bit as qualified to take that roll of backup as a woman, depending on the man and woman.
> 
> There doesn't have to be a one-size-fits-all solution to this problem. We had dinner last night with a happily married couple of 40 years. The wife is an over the top type A lawyer who attempts to be in charge of every situation, and who is clearly in the lead in their marriage.
> 
> It works for them. Who gets to say they're doing it wrong?


It _appears_ to work for them. 

And don't ask the husband....he may be too timid to answer truthfully.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Noman said:


> @Rob_1 I wonder if we should be looking at two types of equality: a) Macro-Equality, and b) Micro-Equality.
> 
> Macro-Equality embraces the broad concept that everyone should be treated with dignity & respect.
> Micro-Equality is what you are describing as it exists within the larger sphere of Macro-Equality.?
> ...


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Noman said:


> What is the true nature of equality in a marriage?
> 
> If one spouse is the Head of Household or one spouse is Dom while the other is Sub, are they _truly _equal?
> 
> ...


I don't feel like my husband and I are equal. In the past (maybe even now) he didn't take certain things I said seriously. If I tried to talk with him about something (confiding in him anything that happened, or on occasion discussing something I was unhappy about (in particular, his family), he would shut me down. I asked him why and he said "Oh, you're a woman, you guys are emotional, I wouldn't take that seriously." 

Weird that he never expressed that or showed it until a few days before our wedding, at Pre-Cana. Even the old man who facilitated the Pre-Cana noticed it...told my husband he needed to take my views and opinions into consideration and listen to me. At the time I thought the old man was crazy...but boy did I learn later that he was completely right. 

I'm not a feminist in any way, but when I'm being considered emotional, and being grouped with other women, that sure pisses me off. I should be different than every other woman....or else, what did you marry me for? (rhetorical)


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

GC1234 said:


> I don't feel like my husband and I are equal. In the past (maybe even now) he didn't take certain things I said seriously. If I tried to talk with him about something (confiding in him anything that happened, or on occasion discussing something I was unhappy about (in particular, his family), he would shut me down. I asked him why and he said "Oh, you're a woman, you guys are emotional, I wouldn't take that seriously."
> 
> Weird that he never expressed that or showed it until a few days before our wedding, at Pre-Cana. Even the old man who facilitated the Pre-Cana noticed it...told my husband he needed to take my views and opinions into consideration and listen to me. At the time I thought the old man was crazy...but boy did I learn later that he was completely right.
> 
> I'm not a feminist in any way, but when I'm being considered emotional, and being grouped with other women, that sure pisses me off. I should be different than every other woman....or else, what did you marry me for? (rhetorical)


Well, truthfully you should be unique to him in many ways, but some ways are common with other women just as the opposite is true for guys.

But yes, he should treat your views with courtesy and respect, as you do him.

Unless during prelude to sex, then all bets are off. That's a time where responses to how your day went may be unintentionally ignored.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Well, truthfully you should be unique to him in many ways, but some ways are common with other women just as the opposite is true for guys.
> 
> But yes, he should treat your views with courtesy and respect, as you do him.
> 
> Unless during prelude to sex, then all bets are off. That's a time where responses to how your day went may be unintentionally ignored.


Lol...I don't bring things up before sex, that's for sure. 
But I don't like to be grouped with people. I certainly don't compare him to other men and say "you all do this or that". I would expect the same in return, and that was not the case. So it hurt.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

manwithnoname said:


> It _appears_ to work for them.
> 
> And don't ask the husband....he may be too timid to answer truthfully.


Frankly, I don't have that level of hubris to patronize someone else's 4 decade success. But since you do, isn't "he may be too timid to answer truthfully" a textbook definition of a man who is perfectly comfortable having his wife lead the marriage? 

Otherwise, we're just going to play the No True Scottsman game all day.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

I said "appears" and he "may" be too timid...... 

What's that about your level of hubris?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

manwithnoname said:


> I said "appears" and he "may" be too timid......
> 
> What's that about your level of hubris?


I interpreted your response to imply that the you find it unlikely that such a living arrangement could be successful unless the man is so timid as to be brow-beaten by his wife into submission. 

It is of course possible that you are right, but seems odd that you would comment on a couple whom you have never met in that way unless you don't believe that my account is accurate. Reading between the lines, you sound incredulous. Am I wrong? If I am not, then you are not in a position to make that judgment.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

Cletus said:


> I interpreted your response to imply that the you find it unlikely that such a living arrangement could be successful unless the man is so timid as to be brow-beaten by his wife into submission.
> 
> It is of course possible that you are right, but seems odd that you would comment on a couple whom you have never met in that way unless you don't believe that my account is accurate. Reading between the lines, you sound incredulous. Am I wrong? If I am not, then you are not in a position to make that judgment.


You can interpret anything any way you like.
Thank you for admitting that it’s possible that I’m right. My wording was used specifically to allow my statement to be true, no matter what their marriage is actually like.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

Equality in a marriage comes in the form of both man and wife waking up every day and having an equal say in whether or not the marriage will continue. Not in the way where because the wife gets a period every month it's only fair the husband gets one too. 

And no, not everyone should be treated with respect and dignity. That's something earned.


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## Noman (Oct 17, 2014)

gaius said:


> Equality in a marriage comes in the form of both man and wife waking up every day and having an equal say in whether or not the marriage will continue. Not in the way where because the wife gets a period every month it's only fair the husband gets one too.
> 
> And no, not everyone should be treated with respect and dignity. That's something earned.


@gaius Two questions:
1. Can you expand on your first paragraph? Is the husband typically above the wife. How far above? Are we talking Master/Slave? (Thinking about your user name.) Or just a hubby with his 'little lady'?

2. I just realized that I made an error in my original post as I too believe that respect has to be earned. But what about dignity? Should we have to earn dignity? What 2 or 3 nouns _are_ all people entitled to?


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Perhaps this is a tired metaphor, but each person in a relationship should get a reasonable approximation of what they need and can agree on with their partner. So just like at school, not everyone gets a pair of glasses because not everyone needs them. The person who needs glasses has glasses. Same with fidgets for my ADHD kids. Or behavior charts for my kid on the spectrum, or social stories for my kid who has a developmental delay. Not everyone NEEDS the same thing. So "fair" or "equal" are kind of irrelevant. Equity rather than equality. So if you split expenses for example, having someone who earns 30,000 pay an equal share of bills as the partner who earns 100,000 is a little nuts. It might be equality but it's not equity. Actual equality works for not everyone.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Noman said:


> What is the true nature of equality in a marriage?
> 
> If one spouse is the Head of Household or one spouse is Dom while the other is Sub, are they _truly _equal?
> 
> ...


Athol Kay is a member here so if you are playing suck-up, you're doing a fine job. Is his check in the mail?


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## Noman (Oct 17, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Athol Kay is a member here so if you are playing suck-up, you're doing a fine job. Is his check in the mail?


Are you certain?

He seems to have dropped off the face of the Earth. I've been wondering if he's still alive.

So, you don't sound like a fan of the Captain & First Officer model.

What is your preference (or reality?)


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

Noman said:


> @gaius Two questions:
> 1. Can you expand on your first paragraph? Is the husband typically above the wife. How far above? Are we talking Master/Slave? (Thinking about your user name.) Or just a hubby with his 'little lady'?
> 
> 2. I just realized that I made an error in my original post as I too believe that respect has to be earned. But what about dignity? Should we have to earn dignity? What 2 or 3 nouns _are_ all people entitled to?


I think women are a lot stronger and more decisive than most give them credit for, and that they usually don't keep themselves in positions they really don't want to be in. So even in a relationship where the guy acts like he's above her it's really just a form of consensual role playing. In reality one is never above the other.

In my own relationship I don't call my wife kiddo or look down on her. But I do play the more traditional, head of the household masculine role. And if she didn't like it she could divorce me in short order. Or never marry me in the first place. We're both equals, even if the expectations and responsibilities of each are different.

And I usually consider dignity something that comes from within, not dependent on other people.


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