# Battle of HD- LD's



## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Just wondering how long does it take to get over the fights over sex?? When I have a disappointing weekend Monday mourning I am a little bitter.But it can't go on for ever.So one has to get over it.If you started the fight about lack of sex. Is it always you who has to make things better.We tend to forget the fight and get on with life.I wonder why we fight about sex,It never seems to get better??


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

It doesn't get better because nothing has changed. The HD spouse still isn't getting their needs met, the LD spouse is still feeling pressured... Actually, the one thing that has changed is the resentments on both sides have likely festered a little bit more. And that, over time, is what will cause the marriage to erode. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

PBear said:


> It doesn't get better because nothing has changed. The HD spouse still isn't getting their needs met, the LD spouse is still feeling pressured... Actually, the one thing that has changed is the resentments on both sides have likely festered a little bit more. And that, over time, is what will cause the marriage to erode.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well about half of the LD are really getting the need met elsewhere
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Fighting about sex is like ....playing with a robot without power.

"When you resist my control, I feel abandoned. When I want you to be a certain way and you won't agree to do that, what I make up about that is that you don't love me, because if you did love me, you would do what I want you to do." So your spouse feels if you can't control them, you don't love them. 

Problem with all of that... is most of us have a belief that without sex, we will fall out of love with our spouse. It's a belief. It's what should happen. So we make it be that way. I did. 

Therapy banged some new ideas into my head this past while. About boundaries. And intimacy. And it has nothing to do with sex drive. 

There is an epidemic (especially among women) to develop unhealthy boundaries to guard ourselves from hurt and pain.
Big azz walls. No intimacy gets in or out. That's the rules. Has nothing to do with your needs, wants, or love. Lots of reasons why it happens. Takes two to tango. Doesn't really matter.

But asking someone to just drop those walls is like asking someone to steal, or any other thing that is against their values. 

Next time you want to fight about it, maybe ask her if intimacy is a boundary for her. Does she shut you out to guard herself? Ask her to think about that. 

There is no quick fix. So life still sucks. But I'm curious. Am I the only one who's life is so screwed up?

Read up on healthy sexual boundaries. Compare what she says.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just Wondering said:


> Just wondering how long does it take to get over the fights over sex?? When I have a disappointing weekend Monday mourning I am a little bitter.But it can't go on for ever.So one has to get over it.If you started the fight about lack of sex. Is it always you who has to make things better.We tend to forget the fight and get on with life.I wonder why we fight about sex,It never seems to get better??


Five years and still going strong :scratchhead:

Once you get to the fights over sex neither side is going to win. The partner who does not want sex will simply continue fighting, while the other partner is delegated to "see but no touch" duty.

In essence the low-desire partner has all the cards and no reason to negotiate - even if they do, it's not going to stay put for long. Ultimately, the objective may be to see how long he/she can get away with for maximum effect (if "evil") or how long he/she can stay ignorant (if "stupid"). Humans are strange animals, they like steady state. I'd be willing to bet that once you go a month or two without sex with your "partner", even if you kiss and make up, the "who the fluck is this guy" thought will be more dominant than "Love Story". A few more fights that go unresolved and that's all she wrote.

Deejov nailed it with erecting walls. That's as simple as it gets. Starts with taking your partner for granted, and proceeds with impunity... It's as simple as wrapping a blanket like a mummy to avoid errant limbs from touching you at night, to avoiding showing of any affection because OMG the walls will crumble like Jericho...

I do disagree with the self-awareness part of her question; of course the partner that does not want sex feels like guarding themselves. The question is, do they know it? Asking a perfectly normal question like "is intimacy a boundary" works great when you are dealing with beings that have functioning brains and can do the math. But they don't do that, rejecting seems to me a reptilian almost response. It's pure instinct, darn it. 

Eventually, it works both ways. Without a physical connection love dries up and after that it's done. I really can't comprehend all those "I love my LD husband/wife and we're best friends except for sex". Duh.... that's not how it works, and if that's how it is, one is in deeper trouble than simply not having sex.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

I had this fight then make-up experience just a few weeks ago. 
I asked my wife if she could remember the last time we had sex? 
She responded with a hesitant, "Last week, I think". 

Wrong! It was actually over 2 weeks prior. 

Then we got into the usual "Is sex all you think about?" argument, ending with me shutting down and watching TV until 2am.
When I finally crawled into bed, she broke out of her blanket cocoon and slid over to my side and started cuddling up to me and rubbing her hand up and down my back, and whispered "I'm sorry" into my ear. 
And as usual, I broke down and replied, "I'm sorry too."
We then had some fantastic make-up sex. 

So, I would say in that instance the recovery time was about 8 hours, but it can also vary widely from a lesser time to several days. 
And I don't know if "recovery" time is the right word for me to use, because I find that most of the time the issue isn't fully resolved. She will forget about sex for days or weeks again until I bring it up or make a move and have her reject me.
It's really a long repeated cycle for us, and I am getting tired of it.

My wife is usually the one to be the white flag bearer. She knows she can't stand on her, "All you think about is sex" defense when we both clearly know that sex once a month is not exactly evidence that supports her position.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

John, _The question is, do they know it?_

Probably not. But is asking the question a more productive action than making one feel like they are being controlled? (which is the source of the conflict ---- control)

I can't help but think that subtly working on the walls would be something you could do?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The walls are not coming down any time soon. Partially due to upbringing in a very suspicious-happy, sheltered, and untrusting environment, partially due to BPD, and partially due to her inability / unwillingness to adapt fully to living in America, the skeptical Dr. Mrs. LD always thinks this is still Farawaystan with less desert and a different dictator thus they're out to get her. Perhaps I could fit some industrial strength tinfoil in her Soma Intimates... This lack of trust is the epicenter of all of her issues.

I have often mentioned that in my little model, "stupid" is more fixable than "evil". In her case, tho, I think "stupid" is an understatement, her mistrust is a handicap that can't be overcome.

Don't get me wrong, it is great to be skeptical, but there is a wide margin between skeptical and "just say no"...I would love to have this level of skepticism at work but not at home.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Its kinda like the mouse and the cheese maze.Its always the same content that we tent to explain when fighting about sex.And then the fight is over.We both will let it be.Then its really not a case of make-up sex.Its more of a case of the battle will continue if she does not rise the white flag.What I am trying to figure out is want about the sexual event is there their that draws me towards it.Its like after the session I sit there and think why would I put up such a battle for that.It really was not that worth while.I think more than not its about someone wanting me.Someone who really cares about my happiness.I have told her many times that its not about getting off,Or coming.Its all about exceptance .I have said I can get my self off by myself.What I really fight for is the romance.The tease,
It gets confusing ,Yes I want a release. But I want her to be happy to give me one.Thanks what makes me feel so good.Do you get it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

To them happiness is zero sum, meaning that you being happy implies them not being happy.

I mentioned before my wife is a workaholic while I barely work 40 hours a week. I have a lot more free time than she does and now that our kids are older I prefer to relax rather than go around the house tidying up stuff that does not need tidying up, or doing useless home projects. This of course infuriates her to no end. 

They simply can't visualize being happy just because. Everything has a "cost" whether its sex, painting a room, or relaxing with a cold beer.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Hello John,Always nice to hear your POV.You know I have spent a life time trying to figure out a way of having a well balanced sex life.Its just so important to my happiness.I can't tell you haw many times I have laid the cards out on the table and explained were I come from with this subject.My wife also works very hard and long hours ,But she loves it.As for me I have to think that keeping a 60 yr. old man sexual happy does not take that much effort.But she can;t seem to make time for it.And is rather forgetful of the task.Nor cares for it anyways.When some one is a workaholic one would think like any job she takes on she would be good at it.I always wonder what motivates my wife to be non sexual with me.What are the rewards to her for being that way.Its really such a easy task to keep me happy.And its not a one sided thing eather.I am willing to do what ever she needs in life to meet her happiness.Maybe her's is not having to take-care of mine??


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'll let you in on a little secret... The reason they won't go the extra step to improve their intimacy score from a D or F to a C is their inner fear that once in C territory (say, from once a month to twice a month - substitute your own personal metrics) they'll be railroaded to B territory and from there to 50 Shades territory of Magna Cum Laude and beyond (ok those in the peanut gallery stop laughing)

They don't forget. Trust me. They know.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> I'll let you in on a little secret... The reason they won't go the extra step to improve their intimacy score from a D or F to a C is their inner fear that once in C territory (say, from once a month to twice a month - substitute your own personal metrics) they'll be railroaded to B territory and from there to 50 Shades territory of Magna Cum Laude and beyond (ok those in the peanut gallery stop laughing)
> 
> They don't forget. Trust me. They know.


This is not exactly a secret. It is a well known fact amongst people who are LD. Biggest fear is giving in that one time, because if you do the flood gates will open. Read the thread "Giving up on sex with my wife" by Trickster. He went from sex once a week, then read the MMSL and initiated sex every day for about 2 weeks. She consented every time he asked, but he could tell she was not into it at all. She cried uncle after a second week.

That is the LDs worst nightmare.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Also, Tricster's wife would give in whenever he wanted. She also asked him to go outside the marriage because she could give him the emotional sex he wanted. He knew she was like this before they married but certain circumstances led him to marry her anyway. That is one of my favorite threads, because it illustrates to the HDs that it's not just the quantity they want but the quality, the LD gave in every time but it was still not enough to satisfy him.

The thread is in the "Thinking about separation/divorce" section.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

techmom said:


> This is not exactly a secret. It is a well known fact amongst people who are LD. Biggest fear is giving in that one time, because if you do the flood gates will open. Read the thread "Giving up on sex with my wife" by Trickster. He went from sex once a week, then read the MMSL and initiated sex every day for about 2 weeks. She consented every time he asked, but he could tell she was not into it at all. She cried uncle after a second week.
> 
> That is the LDs worst nightmare.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The "giving in" part is likely a primary component of non-cheating LD's fears. "giving in" as in loss of control.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have read the thread and even posted a few... It's all about control at the end. It seems to me the LD has a defined SLA (service level agreement) and nothing can sway them from the SLA, not Brad Pitt, not Angelina Jolie, et al.

It may not all be quantity vs quality tho. If you only have sex once in a blue moon, it could be the awesomest sex ever and still most people would choose duty sex once a week over awesomest sex once a month...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

john117 said:


> I have read the thread and even posted a few... It's all about control at the end. It seems to me the LD has a defined SLA (service level agreement) and nothing can sway them from the SLA, not Brad Pitt, not Angelina Jolie, et al.
> 
> It may not all be quantity vs quality tho. If you only have sex once in a blue moon, it could be the awesomest sex ever and still most people would choose duty sex once a week over awesomest sex once a month...


Yes, to a certain extent. My SLA is at least 3-4 times a month at weekends, but if my wife want more, I don't reject, as long as the timing and logistics makes it possible to do extended sessions beyond the SLA.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

john117 said:


> I have read the thread and even posted a few... It's all about control at the end. It seems to me the LD has a defined SLA (service level agreement) and nothing can sway them from the SLA, not Brad Pitt, not Angelina Jolie, et al.
> 
> It may not all be quantity vs quality tho. If you only have sex once in a blue moon, it could be the awesomest sex ever and still most people would choose duty sex once a week over awesomest sex once a month...


Neither option is good. Quality and quantity are both necessary, IMO. Call me crazy, but duty sex is just as bad as getting your "quarterly bonus".


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

john117 said:


> It may not all be quantity vs quality tho. If you only have sx once in a blue moon, it could be the awesomest sx ever and still most people would choose duty sx once a week over awesomest sx once a month...


Just two different versions of hell for an HD. I get a decent quantity...of duty s*x.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The bottom line is that the metric exists. LD's establish an SLA and good luck getting them to budge. Case in point - after a lengthy dry spell of my choosing my wife tried for a month to initiate every week. Eventually I gave up (in) and we had one of the most memorable nights in a decade. That was followed a couple weeks later by a repeat performance. Unfortunately her SLA is not in that range so no more where that came from... Her loss I guess. I do not expect miracles but I'm not falling for it any time soon, not if that is what she has in mind.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

john117 said:


> I have read the thread and even posted a few... It's all about control at the end. It seems to me the LD has a defined SLA (service level agreement) and nothing can sway them from the SLA, not Brad Pitt, not Angelina Jolie, et al.
> 
> It may not all be quantity vs quality tho. If you only have sex once in a blue moon, it could be the awesomest sex ever and still most people would choose duty sex once a week over awesomest sex once a month...


Tell me something my friend,What goes on in the mind of a LD female who enjoys sex when having it . And is very capable of having a orgasm ea time.But never wants to have sex. I mean really the women had a very good orgasm,But does not want one again for a few weeks .I could see this with someone who can't get off.But if you are capable of achieving orgasm when ever you wish.But has no desire for one


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LD (low drive? - I'm new here, so guessing). Anyway, all too often if seems that LD and HD people get into relationships. Yes, things change with time, and especially if kids enter the picture, but often these differences are evident while dating. After a long and sexually unhappy marriage, I looked for someone who matched me well, and 13 years later, that seems to be standing the test of time.

There is also a known phenomenon for both men and women, that (in general) libido is inversely proportional to the length of the relationship.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Just Wondering said:


> Tell me something my friend,What goes on in the mind of a LD female who enjoys sex when having it . And is very capable of having a orgasm ea time.But never wants to have sex. I mean really the women had a very good orgasm,But does not want one again for a few weeks .I could see this with someone who can't get off.But if you are capable of achieving orgasm when ever you wish.But has no desire for one


This is my wife... I mean, STBXW.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

How about this one?? You go ten days of no sex and then you settle for a little duty sex in the mourning at 7:00 am .Then all day long your thinking Ya Know it really was not that good.Then you start thinking sure would be nice to have it again tonight.Only to realize you have to wait your ten days before your in their again.
Such a cycle.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just Wondering said:


> Tell me something my friend,What goes on in the mind of a LD female who enjoys sex when having it . And is very capable of having a orgasm ea time.But never wants to have sex. I mean really the women had a very good orgasm,But does not want one again for a few weeks .I could see this with someone who can't get off.But if you are capable of achieving orgasm when ever you wish.But has no desire for one


I explained it in another thread or this one... Increasing the frequency (ie compromising) is a no-no because in their minds one compromise brings another and pretty much we go from Ice Station Zebra to 50 Shades...

Ain't happening. That is what SLA's are all about. It is all about control.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Just Wondering said:


> Tell me something my friend,What goes on in the mind of a LD female who enjoys sex when having it . And is very capable of having a orgasm ea time.But never wants to have sex. I mean really the women had a very good orgasm,But does not want one again for a few weeks .I could see this with someone who can't get off.But if you are capable of achieving orgasm when ever you wish.But has no desire for one


Well, I was trying to answer this earlier. 
What goes on in the mind?
- Firstly, you have an informed opinion that having sex on a regular basis is important to your marriage because it makes you feel closer, more connected, wanted (fill in the blanks). Very valid, and very important.

Consider that a LD partner does NOT have that same opinion, and they don't 'get' the same thing out of it. An orgasm is nice. That's all. It does not make them feel closer, more connected, wanted. It takes a huge sense of maturity to accept that. With respect. 

It's also quite possible that the LD spouse used to feel the same way. But they changed. (maybe she can learn how again)

What changed? I was saying that a person changes in the sense that they put up _unhealthy _boundaries to intimacy. They block it all out. They are not ABLE to feel what you feel, when you are intimate. It has nothing to do with love, or wanting to make you happy. 

I've seen some of this in extreme cases (history of counselling assault victims years ago) and I can tell you that the feeling for someone with walls to intimacy is just as REAL and strong as your reaction to having intimacy. 

Simple thing I used to ask the SO to do to help:
Stand in front of each other and make direct eye contact, for a very long time. Once you get past the giggling and stuff, it gets uncomfortable. Then it gets emotional. Have you ever done this with your wife? One husband told his wife that he had to do this for a team building thing at work, and wanted to try it out on her. I dunno, think of a way to make it a fun game. I know it can work very quickly to break down walls 

I also want to point out that even though one has unhealthy boundaries, be wary that you are not violating a person's intimacy boundary. It is real to them, and so is the violation.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

I love all the great responses. It has helped me understand better what is possibly going on in my own marriage.

For my wife, I think it is a mix of several of the above posted reasons why she has become LD with me.

1. *Holding onto long past resentments.* 
As an example, during a recent argument about our lack of intimacy and sex, she brought up a comment that I made to her over two years ago, which she had twisted into a criticism about her "Not losing weight" while I was out of town for a month taking care of extended family matters. 
The actual comment I made to her was I thought she was planning on going to the gym more often while I was gone. At least that's what she told me before I left. I was just following up with her on her progress when I returned.
Still holding onto a comment, (I never made), regarding the weight she wanted to lose, and letting it fester and damage her body image, self confidence, and making me out to be the bad guy.

2. *Not being able to let herself go physically.*
In the past, I have been able to give my wife some of the most mind blowing climaxes I have ever witnessed. Gushing fluid, feeling of not being able to breath, with hips and thigh tremors lasting for seconds afterward. She has described these climaxes as losing control of her body, utterly fantastic, but also exhausting afterward.
Now you think someone would want to experience these sensations more often, but she has told me of backing herself off when she feels one of these climaxes building, because it makes her feel self-conscious about the "fluid gush" and the lower body tremors she can't control.
I've explained that witnessing those things turns me on even more, but she doesn't like losing control of her body like that.

3. *Putting up walls.*
My wife is the classic wall builder here. I've described on other threads how she wears more to bed than most people wear during the day, and she loves wrapping herself in a cocoon of sheets and blankets that would make an Egyptian mummy jealous. This passive-aggressive behavior just screams to me, "Do not touch me." 
Also, when I make a move to touch her anywhere beyond basic hand holding or a peck on the lips, somehow I am just after sex. So, I have learned to back off, and wait for her to come to me. Which really isn't that often.


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

Seeing a lot of talk from HD people in this thread. Figured I would chime in from the LD female perspective.

There is no hidden trauma or aversion to intimacy for me. I'm not afraid of losing control and there is no interest in exerting control over a partner. I can orgasm easily and without discomfort whenever I want to. 

Some people just aren't interested in sex. I happen to be one of them. Most of the time I find the whole thing incredibly boring. I could easily go months in a relationship without any desire whatsoever. Outside of relationships I've gone years without sex and barely noticed it. It's not something I need in order to feel intimacy or connection with a partner - in fact I usually feel closer from non-sexual touching.

I haven't yet found a way to make a compromise work in a relationship. I've gone the duty sex route, but eventually I just burn out. I'm not one to just "lie back and think of England" - if I'm going to have sex, I want to do it well. The problem is that it takes sooooooooooo much mental energy to get into that head space when you're not interested. It's easier in the early infatuation stages of a relationship, but once that stage ends, it becomes much more difficult. Sex eventually goes from feeling like a chore to feeling like a punishment. 

I would often just suggest a quickie, but obviously that's not satisfying for the HD person in the long run. I've also done the sessions where it would be 100% about my partner, but they often found those unsatisfying as well because they wanted me to be enjoying myself too.

If two people have seriously mismatched drives, I really don't know that there's anything that can be done. One or both of the partners are always going to end up being extremely unsatisfied and eventually resentful.


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## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

canjad80 said:


> Seeing a lot of talk from HD people in this thread. Figured I would chime in from the LD female perspective.
> 
> There is no hidden trauma or aversion to intimacy for me. I'm not afraid of losing control and there is no interest in exerting control over a partner. I can orgasm easily and without discomfort whenever I want to.
> 
> ...


As another LD spouse, I agree with a lot of this, especially this:
_There is no hidden trauma or aversion to intimacy for me. I'm not afraid of losing control and there is no interest in exerting control over a partner. I can orgasm easily and without discomfort whenever I want to. _

I like sex. It makes me feel closer to my husband. Our level of irritation with each other goes way up if we haven't had sex in a while (where "a while" is about a week). I just don't think about it much. I can still feel close to my husband with other forms of intimacy (hugging, kissing, holding hands, just hanging out together and enjoying each other's company). The problem in my marriage is that my husband wants to have sex all the time (so he says, but I have been rejected on more than a few occasions) but doesn't want to feel like he is pestering me, so his solution is to have me initiate whenever I am in the mood. The problem is that I am hardly ever in the mood. I've tried to explain to him that I could get into the mood if he tried to initiate sometimes. I think it's a bigger issue with him, though, and I'm not sure it's really on point with this thread (if not, sorry for the hijack) but by putting all of the pressure on me to initiate, I think he's basically absolving himself of any responsibility for perceived issues with sex in our marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

deejov said:


> What changed? I was saying that a person changes in the sense that they put up _unhealthy _boundaries to intimacy. They block it all out. They are not ABLE to feel what you feel, when you are intimate. It has nothing to do with love, or wanting to make you happy.


This is about the most remarkable paragraph I have read on the issue, ever...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

A lot of mental energy to get in the mood? I have some very expensive equipment in the lab for measuring "mental energy" (mental workload really). 

If you believe you are really taxing your brain before the act or during the act try counting backwards from 100 in your mind while in the process... If you can, your brain is not taxed by the nookie. If you even can't count to 98 then your mind is being taxed 

(And if you're getting duty sex from your math major LD spouse she's probably solving calculus problems in her head...)


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

Yup. A lot of mental energy. What normally happens when you're doing something that you find boring? Your mind wanders to other more interesting topics. 

I have to constantly give myself a mental slap to stay engaged in the act of having sex. Otherwise I will just zone out and lie there daydreaming. Not exactly enjoyable for either me or my partner.

Especially when having sex at night, I will just fall asleep if I don't continually work at staying in the moment.

I'm not saying it's always like that. There are times where I do want it, in which case it's fun and easy. It just doesn't happen often.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

At times we have done pretty well with a good balance so we are both happy.But soon there after I drift towards, I have cured her LD and I start to want more. And as that happens she goes the other way. We only get intimate about once every ten days and really its not going to happen if you ask before that time.
The bad thing about the male body is that if a women shows a man he is only going to get a few minutes of making love and very little foreplay. Well the guy starts to come quickly. So sex could only last a few minutes every ten days. She happy , The guy never really gets satisfied . OK you do the math.Sex for 3 minutes 3 times a month maybe 10 minutes a month thats only 2- hours of sex a year.And my wife says Is that all you think about.
Ok the women has no need for sex,Thats for sure But she can have a orgasm in 3 minutes every time she wishes to. I wonder how it would be if every time she would like me to do something for her if I only did it for 3 minutes.
I could hear it now. Hey could you fill up my car with gas. The next day she says hey you only put in a half tank. Hey you only get 3 minutes.LOL


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

We may have found a new therapeutic use for ADHD medications  to help people focus during sex... 

The mental energy may be used to "escape" from the act rather than "participate" in the act... Have you thought of using other environmental sensory inputs to help with the process? We use fireplace (electric) and music...


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

Lol! ADHD meds huh? 

I've tried pretty much everything I could think of over the years. When I was younger I was sure there was something wrong with me, so I did all sorts of experimenting trying to "fix" myself and increase my sex drive. It didn't work, but at least I now have a very clear understanding of what I like and what I don't, so it wasn't a total loss! 

The simple fact is that if my head isn't in the game, no type or amount of physical stimulation is going to work. Visual stimulation will turn me on, but it won't necessarily make me want to have sex. I have to totally shift my thought processes and convince myself that I want it to get myself in the mood.


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: Re: Battle of HD- LD's*



Just Wondering said:


> Just wondering how long does it take to get over the fights over sex?? When I have a disappointing weekend Monday mourning I am a little bitter.But it can't go on for ever.So one has to get over it.If you started the fight about lack of sex. Is it always you who has to make things better.We tend to forget the fight and get on with life.I wonder why we fight about sex,It never seems to get better??


It doesn't get better.

You have two choices, once all the talking and fights settle.

You have to realize this isn't an arbitrary choice, a person who wants sex frequently, vs a person who doesn't really are the same thing- ruled by their hormones, just on opposite sides. 

When you realize this, you have to find a way to settle it within yourself. Unfortunately, this probably means detaching some. I found that as I detached a bit, she would see that I was, and pursue some. For a while we did that see-saw. Ultimately, I have come to realize that I can't get my hopes up on things ever changing. Seeking my own level of committed-but-disconnected is the only way to survive it emotionally. Couple that with copious masturbation, and you can get through it.

That being said, you can also give up and move on, but it seems that may just be trading one problem for another.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's not ruled by hormones. If it were, HD people would be doing the "night of the living dead" walk looking for their next partner while LD people would all barricade themselves.

In some cases it is hormones (low t) but in most cases it's not. It's all about people unwilling to come to grips with what constitutes a healthy physical relationship...


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Just Wondering said:


> Just wondering how long does it take to get over the fights over sex?? When I have a disappointing weekend Monday mourning I am a little bitter.But it can't go on for ever.So one has to get over it.If you started the fight about lack of sex. Is it always you who has to make things better.We tend to forget the fight and get on with life.I wonder why we fight about sex,It never seems to get better??



In a LD vs HD situation, the HD spouse initiates sex often and the LD spouse is never in the mood, etc., always rejecting them. So after many years of this, the HD spouse gives up and stops initiating, and doesn't much care anymore. This leads to a room mate situation more than hubby and wifee. Then when the LD spouse is actually in the mood, the HD spouse isn't and doesn't really care anymore. Now here's the kicker, the LD spouse never sees the lack of sex and rejection as their problem and its always the HD spouses fault. This leads to cheating, affairs, and divorce. LD spouses have to be honest with themselves and their spouse from day 1.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

As long as the LD spouse is honest from day one, meaning early on in their dating relationship, that they really don't feel that sex and sexual intimacy is an important and frequent component in what they are looking for in a spouse or SO.
I feel that would be a much appreciated discussion for both people involved. 

However, that isn't what happens in most cases. A lot of HD spouses feel like they have been duped into marriage with someone that was the perfect match for them in all ways, including sexual.

How many times have you read about someone complaining about their spouse's low libido kicking in the day after the ring went on their finger? 
That is why I believe in john117's theory of "stupid" or "evil". Evil being the example above.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If you (anyone) feel you were "duped into marriage", why are you still married?


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## Elliott (Sep 13, 2011)

1. My wife is low demand as well.To her the reason she doesn't "want sex" is because she's not stimulated enough. I swear she has ADHD (but won't admit it nor get tested for it), because when we're in public or our family members are in our house, she can't keep her hands off of me. 

Personally to me, I feel that this stems from when we were dating. I was the man-hore, whom had more female friends than I had fingers and toes. So when we started dating NONE of my female friends or ex-girlfriends thought she was good enough for me. As a result my wife (when we were dating) took the Public Display of Affection to a level that boarders public sex. And she's been like that ever since (for 9 years now).

2. Their's a reason why they don't want to have sex. As I stated in #1, my wife's secret voyeur type fetish is what gets her in the mood instantly. Honestly it pisses me off, because of her surprise "attack" on me. For example, we were standing in line at the grocery store. All of a sudden she go "excited" started messaging my genitals and trying to shove her tongue down my throat. Crap like that pisses me off, because when we're at home she can go 3 straight weeks without even wanting sex.

Therefore. I say find out the reason your partner is low demand. In my case my wife has mental issues. Sadly many of the ADHD & Bipolar threads I've read, mirror what I've been dealing with for the past 9 years with my wife. 

Short Answer: Find our why. Their's always a reason why.


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## Elliott (Sep 13, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> If you (anyone) feel you were "duped into marriage", why are you still married?


because of our children.

My parents divorced when I was 12 and it destroyed me. Having two small children (way younger than 12) I know it would be hard for them. 

My mother was mad as hell about me dating my wife. She used to swear that my mother in law would brain wash my wife to get pregnant as quickly as possible to trap me. Knowing that I wouldn't divorce her if we had a child. Sure enough my mom was right. During our 7th year of marriage, while laying in bed my wife started talking about how her mom did pressure her into getting pregnant quickly. And my wife being the "momma's" girl,...she did just what her mom wanted.

When I was young and dumb I didn't understand why my wife resisted taking the pill, or the shot, or even an IUD? She didn't get the IUD until after our second child was born. But if you knew then what you knew now....


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

So how healthy is it for your (or anyone's) children to ALSO be duped?

Here you are (Elliott as an example), feeling like their mother duped you into marriage. So now you are duping your children into believing in your sham marriage, even though you know it is a sham.

What people don't understand in this type of situation, is that your children will grow up and know the truth one day...and they aren't going to be happy that you duped them "for their own welfare". Instead, they are going to feel betrayed by YOU for duping them into thinking this was a "real" marriage.


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## Elliott (Sep 13, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> So how healthy is it for your (or anyone's) children to ALSO be duped?
> 
> Here you are (Elliott as an example), feeling like their mother duped you into marriage. So now you are duping your children into believing in your sham marriage, even though you know it is a sham.
> 
> What people don't understand in this type of situation, is that your children will grow up and know the truth one day...and they aren't going to be happy that you duped them "for their own welfare". Instead, they are going to feel betrayed by YOU for duping them into thinking this was a "real" marriage.


no my mom didn't dupe me into marriage. She was right about my mother in law *constantly putting pressure on my wife* to get pregnant as quickly as possible. My mother only spoke to me about this "womans intuition" she had that I was about to be "trapped". 

Also, no marriage is perfect, yes children can see when mommy & daddy are not 100% happy. But in my case my lack of sex is not enough reason to walk around the house like my Philadelphia Eagles lost the super bowl. It's been years and I"m used to it. My point still stands for the OP, find out the reason why the LD doesn't want sex. Their's always a reason.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Batman4691 said:


> As long as the LD spouse is honest from day one, meaning early on in their dating relationship, that they really don't feel that sex and sexual intimacy is an important and frequent component in what they are looking for in a spouse or SO.
> I feel that would be a much appreciated discussion for both people involved.
> 
> However, that isn't what happens in most cases. A lot of HD spouses feel like they have been duped into marriage with someone that was the perfect match for them in all ways, including sexual.
> ...


Yes, that would be a welcome conversation. But it will happen very rarely, especially among younger folks contemplating marriage for the first time. A lady looking for a guy age 30 or under knows that saying she has a low drive and not expecting to have a lot of sex will SEVERELY limit the number of interested men. It's easier to hide the truth or excuse it away than to be upfront and admit the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

DTO said:


> Yes, that would be a welcome conversation. But it will happen very rarely, especially among younger folks contemplating marriage for the first time. A lady looking for a guy age 30 or under knows that saying she has a low drive and not expecting to have a lot of sex will SEVERELY limit the number of interested men. It's easier to hide the truth or excuse it away than to be upfront and admit the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree 100%. IMHO, most young twenty something couples sadly do not have this conversation and can be honest about it. Usually because they are already having sexual relations and for reasons of hiding their true low libido, they try to please their partner sexually to avoid the break-up and worries of being alone.
During the dating phase, the HD partner is in control of the sexual pace of the relationship.

Once married, a layer of security is added, and the LD spouse does not have to "put out" as much. 
Once children are in the mix, an even larger layer of security is added and the LD spouse is now fully in control of the sexual tempo of the marriage, and can dictate the couples sexual pace. 

As has been stated before, many married men/women will not divorce their LD partners when married a significant amount of time has passed or children are involved. They would rather be with their children as a full time parent rather than divorce, and start over again for reasons of satisfying their own sexual urges.

FYI: I was not duped into marriage. My wife's LD kicked in during the last 5-6 years of a 30 year relationship.
And it isn't all that simple to "just get a divorce" when you are dealing with other emotions, other feelings of love and attachment, responsibilities, love for your children, financial reasons, etc.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

DTO said:


> Yes, that would be a welcome conversation. But it will happen very rarely, especially among younger folks contemplating marriage for the first time. A lady looking for a guy age 30 or under knows that saying she has a low drive and not expecting to have a lot of sex will SEVERELY limit the number of interested men. It's easier to hide the truth or excuse it away than to be upfront and admit the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bait And Switch(TM)


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## Elliott (Sep 13, 2011)

Batman4691 said:


> I agree 100%. IMHO, most young twenty something couples sadly do not have this conversation and can be honest about it. Usually because they are already having sexual relations and for reasons of hiding their true low libido, they try to please their partner sexually to avoid the break-up and worries of being alone.
> During the dating phase, the HD partner is in control of the sexual pace of the relationship.
> 
> *Once married, a layer of security is added, and the LD spouse does not have to "put out" as much. *
> ...


preach it!:yay:

On another note, it really is true what they say "With age comes experience". No wonder those whom marry at 30 or older have less "surprises" in their marriages. The rest of us whom married in our 20's just figure it out and deal with it as it comes.


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

You guys seem to be reading a lot of nefarious intent into LD partners here. While the intentional deception does happen in some cases, I would say that's probably a minority. 

Especially for women, sex can be complicated. A twenty-something without much experience probably doesn't even know that she's LD, so how can she possibly tell her partner that? Not to mention that most young twenty-somethings (both male and female) are generally lacking in self-awareness.

My LD tendencies don't really show up in shorter relationships (less than 1.5 years). I had to go through two long-term relationships (4+ years) before I figured it out. The first LTR it was easy to blame him - I assumed that I was normal and he was hyper-sexual. When the same patterns showed up in the second LTR, then I had to take a look at myself. I was in my late twenties by the time I figured it out.

Now that I know the deal, I'm always very upfront about it with new relationships. When I was younger though, it never would have occurred to me because I didn't even know it was an issue.

I'm sorry if some of you guys were unlucky enough to come across the intentionally dishonest LD types or the ones with unaddressed psychological issues. Don't make the mistake of tarring all LD people with the same brush though.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

canjad80 said:


> You guys seem to be reading a lot of nefarious intent into LD partners here. While the intentional deception does happen in some cases, I would say that's probably a minority.
> 
> Especially for women, sex can be complicated. A twenty-something without much experience probably doesn't even know that she's LD, so how can she possibly tell her partner that? Not to mention that most young twenty-somethings (both male and female) are generally lacking in self-awareness.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree: 

When I was in my early twenties, I had no idea what would even constitute a "LD" or "HD." I don't think most young women go into a relationship thinking "hmmmm.....now I know I don't like sex that often, but I'll keep that from my boyfriend until we're married. Then I'll let my true LD show." Most of the time it is not the simple "bait and switch" scenario.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

canjad80 said:


> *Now that I know the deal, I'm always very upfront about it with new relationships. When I was younger though, it never would have occurred to me because I didn't even know it was an issue.*


Interesting perspective, but I fully agree with it.
These things are better discussed before with potential partners.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

canjad80 said:


> Seeing a lot of talk from HD people in this thread. Figured I would chime in from the LD female perspective.
> 
> There is no hidden trauma or aversion to intimacy for me. I'm not afraid of losing control and there is no interest in exerting control over a partner. I can orgasm easily and without discomfort whenever I want to.
> 
> ...


Is it fair and reasonable to say that you don't have the opinion that being intimate makes you feel closer, loved, wanted?
It's nice and all... but you don't share the experience in a way that some of the male posters do?

Which is what I was pointing out. And that it's just as real for someone to NOT feel that way about it as it is for someone who does.

It's not really a matter of matching drives, as it is realising that you admit it takes a LTR for this to kick in. The longer you are with someone, the closer you should get. But you become LD at that point. 
Does that make any sense?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> When I was in my early twenties, I had no idea what would even constitute a "LD" or "HD." I don't think most young women go into a relationship thinking "hmmmm.....now I know I don't like sex that often, but I'll keep that from my boyfriend until we're married. Then I'll let my true LD show." Most of the time it is not the simple "bait and switch" scenario.


Numbers are objective, though. Surely in a relationship of a year or more the unknowing LD will be in an opportunity where they have to play along at, how my wife would put it, run at rate, so at that point if they play along just to not act like a sour-puss but revert to the standard afterwards...

Let's put an example up on the projector. Happy couple of a year go on a vacation for a week. During a normal week they may do the one a week yawner if the presumed but unsuspecting LD is indeed so, but could bump it up to daily on vacation and then down to normal upon return... 

There are plenty of sources of information for what constitutes run at rate, but an unsuspecting LD can surely know whether his/her preferred run at rate approximates the accepted SLA'S or not...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

canjad80 said:


> You guys seem to be reading a lot of nefarious intent into LD partners here. While the intentional deception does happen in some cases, I would say that's probably a minority.
> 
> Especially for women, sex can be complicated. A twenty-something without much experience probably doesn't even know that she's LD, so how can she possibly tell her partner that? Not to mention that most young twenty-somethings (both male and female) are generally lacking in self-awareness.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:

Agree. I am LD but I have every intention to fulfill my negotiated quota of weekend sex weekly if my wife ask for it. LD is a state of being. Rejection is a choice. I am LD but I don't believe in rejecting my wife even when I am not in the mood. Not all LDs are selfish. BUT.. knowing that we are LD, we would very deeply appreciate if the HD partner does not force us to go beyond what we're capable of. At least not too often. That's why negotiation are important, and the real commitment to fulfill the negotiated schedule.


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

deejov said:


> Is it fair and reasonable to say that you don't have the opinion that being intimate makes you feel closer, loved, wanted?
> It's nice and all... but you don't share the experience in a way that some of the male posters do?
> 
> Which is what I was pointing out. And that it's just as real for someone to NOT feel that way about it as it is for someone who does.
> ...


I have the opinion that being intimate doesn't make ALL people feel closer, loved, wanted. I understand that's the way it works for many people, but I don't accept that as the standard for everyone. It's certainly not the way it works for me.

I think we're agreeing here, just differing on the semantics 

Regarding why it doesn't show up in shorter relationships with me, I think I get what you're saying here. Basically a love language thing? I could see that being an issue in some cases. I've always been very aware of that difference though. I've always put a lot of effort into trying to find a compromise with my partners solely to try and meet that need for them. 

It really is just about mismatched drives for me. The reason it doesn't show up in shorter relationships for me is pure logistics. Until I'm living with someone, sex isn't regular or high frequency. Plus there's still the infatuation and newness factor, so my drive is naturally higher at the beginning of a relationship.

I think what you're talking about is really a separate issue from LD-HD, although there is likely some overlap. I've met people who are HD but don't need sex to create that feeling of intimacy.


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> Agree. I am LD but I have every intention to fulfill my negotiated quota of weekend sex weekly if my wife ask for it. LD is a state of being. Rejection is a choice. I am LD but I don't believe in rejecting my wife even when I am not in the mood. Not all LDs are selfish. BUT.. knowing that we are LD, we would very deeply appreciate if the HD partner does not force us to go beyond what we're capable of. At least not too often. That's why negotiation are important, and the real commitment to fulfill the negotiated schedule.


Agreed. It's a constant negotiation. Neither partner is going to get sex at their desired frequency. The trick is just to make sure it doesn't become a hardship for either of them.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

finally a fellow LD who agrees with me! *bowing*


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

canjad80 said:


> Agreed. It's a constant negotiation. Neither partner is going to get sex at their desired frequency. The trick is just to make sure it doesn't become a hardship for either of them.


This is the key. Regarding nefarious intent (as was said earlier): the point is not so much how many people do a bait and switch (and I don't think it's all that rare). It's more like the cause does not matter if once in a relationship you refuse to do anything about it.(putting on the flame suit). 

But think about it. If I am married to LD, shouldn't the most important factor be what she is willing to do to make sure I at least feel satisfied if not completely fulfilled? Because, that is the problem I see here most often - the LD person wants to enjoy the perks of the relationship but deems sex to be beyond the normal "give and take". By contrast, a reasonable person would either ensure the need is met or ask less in return (because it generally feels bad to use someone).

Bottom line is this is as much about generosity and sacrifice as it is about sex drive per se. And, while you might not know about your sex drive in your mid-20s, you certainly know if you are generous and accomodating, and that should be a part of any relationship conversation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

as I said.. LD is a state of being, but refusing is a choice. You could be an LD but not a chronic refuser.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

canjad80 said:


> It really is just about mismatched drives for me. The reason it doesn't show up in shorter relationships for me is pure logistics. Until I'm living with someone, sex isn't regular or high frequency. Plus there's still the infatuation and newness factor, so my drive is naturally higher at the beginning of a relationship.


Mismatched drives is twice a week versus once a week, not twice a week vs once a month. 

I would wafer to say that if you're both using the same calendar units it's a mismatch, if we're talking different calendar units it's LD vs HD. 

Big difference. Many of the posts here are not for 2x a week vs 3x a week, but much more of the abysmal variety...


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

john117 said:


> Numbers are objective, though. Surely in a relationship of a year or more the unknowing LD will be in an opportunity where they have to play along at, how my wife would put it, run at rate, so at that point if they play along just to not act like a sour-puss but revert to the standard afterwards...
> 
> Let's put an example up on the projector. Happy couple of a year go on a vacation for a week. During a normal week they may do the one a week yawner if the presumed but unsuspecting LD is indeed so, but could bump it up to daily on vacation and then down to normal upon return...
> 
> There are plenty of sources of information for what constitutes run at rate, but an unsuspecting LD can surely know whether his/her preferred run at rate approximates the accepted SLA'S or not...


I get what you are saying, but I still object to the "bait and switch" scenario. Let's say that a LD individual DOES indeed know and understand that her (or his) drive is low. I would still wager that this LD individual would enter into marriage with good intentions. Even though she does not always want sex as much as her partner, she still feels happy to oblige and make him happy. She thinks she will always feel this way and believes she will always want to accommodate her spouse.

What I see as the real issue is complacency and taking a spouse for granted. This can obviously happen in ALL areas of a relationship. Take, for example, the once conversation-orientated boyfriend turned husband who now farts and plays on his phone instead of interacting with his wife. Would this also be a "bait and switch" scenario?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

DTO said:


> Bottom line is this is as much about generosity and sacrifice as it is about sex drive per se. And, while you might not know about your sex drive in your mid-20s, you certainly know if you are generous and accomodating, and that should be a part of any relationship conversation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This I agree with. I will admit that as a LD individual it has sometimes been hard for me to see sex as important because it is just not on my mind. At this point in my life, I crave other things. However, I get that it is important to my husband and I DO want to be generous and accommodating. 

I really believe it is far to easy for both partners in marriage to become lazy, selfish, and to take each other for granted. Marriage sometimes takes time and work in all areas (sex included).


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

DTO said:


> Bottom line is this is as much about generosity and sacrifice as it is about sex drive per se. And, while you might not know about your sex drive in your mid-20s, you certainly know if you are generous and accomodating, and that should be a part of any relationship conversation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No flame suit required. I agree. There needs to be a lot of communication though. 

I've often felt like my sacrifice hasn't been appreciated when I've been with HD partners. No matter how far beyond my natural levels I've pushed myself I would be met with passive-aggressive sniping about never getting enough. Faced with that, I would just shut them down completely and stop trying to accommodate them at all.

A lot of HD people seem to think that the LD person has it easier in some way. They don't seem to understand just how difficult it can be for the LD person to always be pushed so far beyond their natural frequency. 

I know that works the other way as well, with many LD people not understanding how difficult it can be for the HD person to go without for so long.

That's why I say there needs to be a lot of communication to make sure that neither party is suffering disproportionately.



john117 said:


> Mismatched drives is twice a week versus once a week, not twice a week vs once a month.
> 
> I would wafer to say that if you're both using the same calendar units it's a mismatch, if we're talking different calendar units it's LD vs HD.
> 
> Big difference. Many of the posts here are not for 2x a week vs 3x a week, but much more of the abysmal variety...


Semantics. For the record, in my marriage we had a difference of 3-4x per week vs 7-8x per year.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

canjad80 said:


> I have the opinion that being intimate doesn't make ALL people feel closer, loved, wanted. I understand that's the way it works for many people, but I don't accept that as the standard for everyone. It's certainly not the way it works for me.
> 
> I think we're agreeing here, just differing on the semantics
> 
> ...


No, you have it right. I am NOT trying to say it's wrong for you to feel that way. I was, actually, trying to point out to the male posters that it may be wrong for them to assume that their spouses feel the way they do.

If one did assume that ... well, of course it's natural to think they don't love you, or they are being mean or cruel.

That's not the case, maybe. Understanding that is a big step in accepting people have different reactions when it comes to emotional intimacy. 

Some people simply do not allow themselves to feel that way, and do get a version of that feeling from other methods of intimacy.

The conflict is that people do think that it's wrong, and spend a lot of effort trying to rectify it. And the reverse side is also true. 

They think it's wrong because most pyschology theories agree with it. It is more accepted that a healthier level of intimacy is to allow for similar reactions.

An emotional block or guard can prevent a person from allowing themselves to feel that way. Just sayin.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

canjad80 said:


> Agreed. It's a constant negotiation. Neither partner is going to get sex at their desired frequency. The trick is just to make sure it doesn't become a hardship for either of them.


You can't negotiate once a month vs 3x a week down to a numerical average. If your LD SLA is ideally 8-10 times a year and yours is 8-10 times a month, or 12 times that, the average is 10 + 120 / 2 or 65 times or a bit over once a week. Good luck getting the LD to quadruple his / her SLA... Do a lot of math to see what compromise really means numerically


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

momtwo4 said:


> I get what you are saying, but I still object to the "bait and switch" scenario.


unfortunately, this does happens.



> Let's say that a LD individual DOES indeed know and understand that her (or his) drive is low. I would still wager that this LD individual would enter into marriage with good intentions. Even though she does not always want sex as much as her partner, she still feels happy to oblige and make him happy. She thinks she will always feel this way and believes she will always want to accommodate her spouse.


This is true. But this kind of cheerful generosity are not limited to the womenfolk. We LD men exists too, and we too are capable of such cheerful generosity. 

But, LD individuals (whether male or female) should also be aware that there will be times that he/she would be expected to perform beyond his/her normal capacity. The strength of character is shown during hardships, not when all is well and easy. If I want only 3 times a month sex, and suddenly my spouse wants 3 times a week sex, then so be it. Let's see how much endurance I could muster. Let's see how many weeks I could go on. When I had enough, I'll tell my spouse that I need a break. Instead of building an impassable wall from the beginning ("I am NOT going to have sex with you more than 3 times a month!"), I will always try to negotiate ("Again? wow! But we just done it 7 times within 7 days straight.. can I please have a week to recover?"). 



> What I see as the real issue is complacency and taking a spouse for granted. This can obviously happen in ALL areas of a relationship. Take, for example, the once conversation-orientated boyfriend turned husband who now farts and plays on his phone instead of interacting with his wife. Would this also be a "bait and switch" scenario?


Indeed, Bait and Switch(TM) could be utilized by both genders. Usually it's the one who are most deeply committed to the relationship who suffers the most. Life is cruel


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

canjad80 said:


> Semantics. For the record, in my marriage we had a difference of 3-4x per week vs 7-8x per year.


That's not semantics, that is a cliff. May I be so bold as to inquire as to what the compromise value was?


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

deejov said:


> Is it fair and reasonable to say that you don't have the opinion that being intimate makes you feel closer, loved, wanted?
> It's nice and all... but you don't share the experience in a way that some of the male posters do?
> 
> Which is what I was pointing out. And that it's just as real for someone to NOT feel that way about it as it is for someone who does.
> ...


Simple thought: So my partner needs Quality Time and Words of Affirmation to feel loved, and I need Physical Touch (sex) and Quality Time to feel loved. (5LL)

I get that my partner's LL is not Physical Touch. Are we calling that LD here? Do I understand you correctly? ... You are saying the LD cannot meet the HD's needs for physical touch. (other than by duty/pity sex ... who wants that?) 

Understand, Words of Affirmation do not come naturally for me. I want to know about her LLs. I have the most sincere desire to inquire and deliver with respect to her emotional needs. Am I wrong to expect the same from a partner? Isn't this what separates love from compassionate regard?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Jung_admirer said:


> Simple thought: So my partner needs Quality Time and Words of Affirmation to feel loved, and I need Physical Touch (sex) and Quality Time to feel loved. (5LL)
> 
> I get that my partner's LL is not Physical Touch. Are we calling that LD here? Do I understand you correctly? ... You are saying the LD cannot meet the HD's needs for physical touch. (other than by duty/pity sex ... who wants that?)


Basically, YES.

It's such a common thing for one person to block intense emotional intimacy (sex) that yup, they've written books about it. Nobody really even asks anymore why a person would be satisfied with just words of affirmation. "just learn to accept it and find a way to make a compromise". 

15 years ago, when I worked with assault victims to "heal" from this type of thing, it was widely accepted that the normal reaction to sex with a long term partner IS to feel loved, wanted, closer. If a person was not able to do that, it was suggested they seek some help with understanding why they couldn't. 

Society is partly to blame. Big obtuse conversation there about what happened. But we all just swallow it all, and decide that's how we should be. It's a belief. If you don't agree, then how come soooo many people start out one way, and then change?

The 5LL is useful in finding some common ground. And in helping to understand differing values. 

But if there is no interest in addressing that it maybe still be normal to be able to feel loved, wanted, deep intense emotions, maybe there be a book or two written about "how to block intense emotion and fill your love tank with non-sexual intimacy".

Why isn't there one? Hmmm.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

deejov said:


> The 5LL is useful in finding some common ground. And in helping to understand differing values.
> 
> But if there is no interest in addressing that it maybe still be normal to be able to feel loved, wanted, deep intense emotions, maybe there be a book or two written about "how to block intense emotion and fill your love tank with non-sexual intimacy".
> 
> Why isn't there one? Hmmm.


Maybe because such a book wouldn't speak to the needs of the book buyers(?) Non-sexual intimacy can fill my love tank with an eye-dropper, sexual intimacy fills it with a fire hose. If you are suggesting we can re-program our primal (subconscious) emotional needs, I respectfully disagree.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Jung_admirer said:


> Maybe because such a book wouldn't speak to the needs of the book buyers(?) Non-sexual intimacy can fill my love tank with an eye-dropper, sexual intimacy fills it with a fire hose. If you are suggesting we can re-program our primal (subconscious) emotional needs, I respectfully disagree.


Nope, not suggesting that at all.
Saying 5LL is already doing that. 
Appealing to those unable to feel the same thing .Assure them, and their partners, it's "okay" to be guardely emotional.
I call crap. 
When did that become normal? And if we accept that as normal, then we should stop banging our heads against the wall and learn to be "guardely emotional".


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

john117 said:


> That's not semantics, that is a cliff. May I be so bold as to inquire as to what the compromise value was?


About 1x per week give or take a few days. 

Unfortunately, he is one of the HD people who doesn't understand the LD perspective. He was always pushing me for more. He thought I was just game playing and using sex to manipulate him. So he decided to "take control" of the sex and stop initiating until I came to him. Boy did that one backfire on him! :lol:

Edit - just wanted to add that the reason I was able to go so far beyond my ideal is because there was benefit to me. Like any other chore - you may not enjoy it, but you do it because there's a benefit to you. Once the benefit dried up (ie; my needs were no longer being met) I was no longer willing to put myself through the discomfort of having sex that often and the frequency dropped off substantially.


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

deejov said:


> An emotional block or guard can prevent a person from allowing themselves to feel that way. Just sayin.


I'm sure that's the case with some people.

It really is a love language thing. Gifts are absolutely meaningless to me as a LL. I can appreciate the gesture, but that doesn't express caring or intimacy to me. Sex gets the same reaction. I appreciate the thought and sure it can be nice, but it doesn't demonstrate caring or love to me.

Interestingly, Physical Touch is one of my love languages. Just other forms of touch besides sex.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

canjad80 said:


> So he decided to "take control" of the sx and stop initiating until I came to him. Boy did that one backfire on him! :lol:


Yeah, and how long did that go on?


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> Yeah, and how long did that go on?


IIRC, I believe he lasted about 3-4 weeks before he caved.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

deejov said:


> Saying 5LL is already doing that.
> Appealing to those unable to feel the same thing .Assure them, and their partners, it's "okay" to be guardely emotional.


How so? I read 5LL with the very specific intention to more fully understand and communicate my needs to my partner, certainly not to create/rationalize emotional barriers.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Maybe it's just me, but 5LL has to be one of the most simplistic, stereotyping, etc book I have read in years. 

Even if you believe the languages exist, there is no consideration made for quantity vs quality of the, ehem, language elements, as seen by the couple, nor is there a relative value for different options. (Oh honey, a BMW Z4, you shouldn't ) or for a cost benefit analysis, or the feasibility of providing said language if the partner can't or won't deliver... Or that our needs change over time, often rapidly...

I don't expect it to be peer reviewed but still...


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## Elliott (Sep 13, 2011)

Out of curiosity, when is "sex" a problem to a Low demand person?

Meaning, how many weeks/months can you handle without sex until you start to get angry or until you even realize that you haven't had sex in "x" amount of days/weeks/months?

Or does that not happen at all?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Months? The 24 pack of Trojans in my nightstand will be found half empty by archaeologists in 2300 AD looking for artifacts... (Mental note to self - buy the LD Trojan package from Costco next time, not the HD )

Seriously, sex is a problem to an LD only if their ND or HD partner makes it into one... on their own, I think once you get past a month or two it might as well be aeons.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

canjad80 said:


> I'm sure that's the case with some people.
> 
> It really is a love language thing. Gifts are absolutely meaningless to me as a LL. I can appreciate the gesture, but that doesn't express caring or intimacy to me. Sex gets the same reaction. I appreciate the thought and sure it can be nice, but it doesn't demonstrate caring or love to me.
> 
> Interestingly, Physical Touch is one of my love languages. Just other forms of touch besides sex.


With respect, you are writing of exactly what I speak.
15 years ago, this would have been called "sexual dysfunction" and therapy would have been encouraged.

It is still considered sexually dysfunctional to feel that way about sex. Male or female. Some people do a decent job of recognizing it and trying to work around it. Sounds like you have. Many have not.

But now, there are books to explain it, name it, instead. 
We don't want to point out that it's dysfunctional. It's like a self help book for people with BPD, detailing how to hide it from others and fit in with society. 

A band aid. The damage is that people don't even believe it's dysfunctional anymore. I think that is sad.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

I don't think it's sad that LD people aren't as encouraged as they once were to think that they're broken/wrong. It's okay for people to be different, and for people to retain control and ownership over their own bodies. No one has a right to expect another to have sex on demand or against their will, loved one or not. IMO, that's not love anyway.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

canjad80 said:


> IIRC, I believe he lasted about 3-4 weeks before he caved.


Then the guy is way too short term focused. This spring I tried a similar experiment after the lovely Dr. Mrs. LD turned MMSL on me (merchant marine sex life) 3 months later she started initiating every week or so and was visibly upset when I was not interested. Eventually I got tired and we had about the best in the last five years... This was repeated a couple weeks later. 

Unfortunately the secret LD decoder ring now indicates even 2 weeks is too often. So I suspect we will have another drought or two during which we will continue to drift apart.

Apparently, she even has a reason for the 3 week interval. She explained "her body cannot handle nookie more often than that". This is of course from someone who walks 6-7 miles a day every day, rain or shine, or who spread 16 cubic yards of mulch alone in one 3 day weekend... Apparently nookie is more taxing...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

soulpotato said:


> I don't think it's sad that LD people aren't as encouraged as they once were to think that they're broken/wrong. It's okay for people to be different, and for people to retain control and ownership over their own bodies. No one has a right to expect another to have sex on demand or against their will, loved one or not. IMO, that's not love anyway.[/QUOTE
> 
> A boundary is healthy. A boundary will resolve a problem, and give you back your freedom. It will breed respect, and a sense of self worth.
> 
> ...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> I don't think it's sad that LD people aren't as encouraged as they once were to think that they're broken/wrong. It's okay for people to be different, and for people to retain control and ownership over their own bodies. No one has a right to expect another to have sex on demand or against their will, loved one or not. IMO, that's not love anyway.


I get your point :smthumbup: I embrace my LD-self. So what if I am ok with monthly sex? that's who I am. 

But once we got married, it's no longer about me, me, me, me. It's about _us_. 

I got angry when reading about people who chronically reject their spouses. Because I won't do that, that's cruel, that's selfish. Chronic rejection by a partner is the problem, not the LD-ness itself... Mr. Deejov wrote above about "building a wall" and yes, I agree that is not normal at all!

Being LD, I make serious efforts to get in the mood when my spouse wants me. I stocked on the food supplements, I learned self-hypnosis techniques to get in the mood (at least enough to get the job done), I learned techniques to ensure my spouse are satisfied. All she has to do is ask, and most of the times I will gladly comply, if there are no health or logistics problems. 

All I ask in return are negotiation for frequency, of which we both had came into terms. I am incapable of go beyond my comfort zone of monthly sex for an extended period. A few days of extras are ok, but that's not my natural rhythm.

So, here I am making serious efforts.. and then I read sad tales about people with selfish partners.. ugh!

And yes, I think, to a certain extent, LD-ness is something a little less than normal. I had went without sex for a full year and not missed it even once. I felt perfectly normal back then. My wife sure got offended though... So.. not exactly abnormal, but if we are not careful, the LD-ness could give us the rationale to build a wall against intimacy, and it's the wall of rejection itself that would kill the love, in the long run.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

deejov said:


> soulpotato said:
> 
> 
> > I
> ...


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## Elliott (Sep 13, 2011)

john117 said:


> Months? The 24 pack of Trojans in my nightstand will be found half empty by archaeologists in 2300 AD looking for artifacts... (Mental note to self - buy the LD Trojan package from Costco next time, not the HD )
> 
> Seriously, sex is a problem to an LD only if their ND or HD partner makes it into one... on their own, I think once you get past a month or two it might as well be aeons.


I laughed so hard that i farted.

:lol::rofl:


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Jung_admirer said:


> How so? I read 5LL with the very specific intention to more fully understand and communicate my needs to my partner, certainly not to create/rationalize emotional barriers.


 The purpose of the book is to define emotional barriers.
It breaks down and nicely names the walls.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

canjad80 said:


> About 1x per week give or take a few days.
> 
> Unfortunately, he is one of the HD people who doesn't understand the LD perspective. He was always pushing me for more. He thought I was just game playing and using sex to manipulate him. So he decided to "take control" of the sex and stop initiating until I came to him. Boy did that one backfire on him! :lol:
> 
> Edit - just wanted to add that the reason I was able to go so far beyond my ideal is because there was benefit to me. Like any other chore - you may not enjoy it, but you do it because there's a benefit to you. Once the benefit dried up (ie; my needs were no longer being met) I was no longer willing to put myself through the discomfort of having sex that often and the frequency dropped off substantially.


Ah, this should be archived in the Annals of LD or some such journal. 

First, let's do the math. You went from 8 times a year to, say, 56. That's a startling 7 time increase. Mr. HD's expectation went from 4x52 to say, 56, one quarter of what he wanted. So, in theory, Mr. HD gets the Golden Trojan for 'persevering'. 

Now comes the tough part.

First of all I do not know how old you or your partner are. But your last paragraph is very telling. Exactly what needs would those be, and would you be up front with your partner and explain, or would he have to figure the puzzle on his own? 

What you describe in essence is the fallacy of SLA's. You and he establish an SLA that you can both live with - in theory - and then things go smoothly for a while. Then Resentments A, B, and C come in, and you are not having your needs met. Honest communication starts to disappear, and all kinds of excuses or incidents begin to occur. My wife tried to do this and of course it was not very good; I make an excellent living observing details and it was not very difficult to detect patterns or see what happens when mystery sinus infections, aches and pains, or major BPD explosions all seemed to come on a schedule as reliable as Old Faithful... 

Still we managed to maintain a pretty good pace, and ending up to once a week or so after 25 years. Not bad. After the Rapture the agreed upon SLA's went out the window and all kinds of reasons were produced. I played along making sure she understood. At that point I knew things would not go back to anything better... The BPD Fairy paid us a visit about 5 years ago and things became pretty hairy for a while. Things have improved in the last 2-3 years but the nookie train seems to be doing very occasional trips. 

It all boils down to honesty, ironically. I would have appreciated honesty if it ever occurred...


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

I'm having trouble with desire. I need to feel desired.

My wife is trying to go from once a month to my level of 2-3 times per week which is admirable. I'm trying really hard to forget the fact that she is doing this for me and me only which is a very generous thing. 

But, she shows no desire for me. How could she? She's having sex a lot more than she needs and she has me who is always available to do it.

I'm average or little above average looking guy and counting from my puberty there were rare instances that someone desires me and this statistics continues to this day. Sucks.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

Running Mom said:


> I just don't think about it much. I can still feel close to my husband with other forms of intimacy (hugging, kissing, holding hands, just hanging out together and enjoying each other's company). The problem in my marriage is that my husband wants to have sex all the time (so he says, but I have been rejected on more than a few occasions) but doesn't want to feel like he is pestering me, so his solution is to have me initiate whenever I am in the mood. The problem is that I am hardly ever in the mood. I've tried to explain to him that I could get into the mood if he tried to initiate sometimes. I think it's a bigger issue with him, though, and I'm not sure it's really on point with this thread (if not, sorry for the hijack) but by putting all of the pressure on me to initiate, I think he's basically absolving himself of any responsibility for perceived issues with sex in our marriage.


This is so similar to my own marriage. Are you my wife?! 

Thing is, it's really, really difficult to approach my wife for sex when she is shows absolutely no interest in it. It does feel like pestering.

I also sometimes avoid initiating. It's not about absolution of responsibility. When she initiates I can feel that she's somewhat in the mood and I can feel desired for a short while. It's important to me.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

canjad80 said:


> About 1x per week give or take a few days.
> 
> Unfortunately, he is one of the HD people who doesn't understand the LD perspective. He was always pushing me for more. He thought I was just game playing and using sex to manipulate him. So he decided to "take control" of the sex and stop initiating until I came to him. Boy did that one backfire on him! :lol:
> 
> Edit - just wanted to add that the reason I was able to go so far beyond my ideal is because there was benefit to me. Like any other chore - you may not enjoy it, but you do it because there's a benefit to you. Once the benefit dried up (ie; my needs were no longer being met) I was no longer willing to put myself through the discomfort of having sex that often and the frequency dropped off substantially.


This is just about the saddest post I have ever read.

I honestly feel sorry for you and your husband.
You talk about your sex life and "taking control" like two teenagers fighting over the TV remote.

Your husband pushed for more sex than just once a week with you, because he thought you were manipulating him. But you showed him who was really in control by outlasting him during a sexual fast. Then you post a laughing out loud face.

That would be like me stating that my wife asked for a kiss when dropping her off for work, but she knows how I feel about PDA so I showed her by not kissing her for months after that. :lol: 
It's just sad and frightening all at the same time. 

Your post here sounds like you relish in the fact that you deny him because he is no longer meeting your needs, so you deny him more, continuing the vicious cycle.
I know you don't really care for sex, you've stated as much, but you are using sex in your marriage as a weapon against the one you supposedly love.


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

john117 said:


> First of all I do not know how old you or your partner are. But your last paragraph is very telling. Exactly what needs would those be, and would you be up front with your partner and explain, or would he have to figure the puzzle on his own?





Batman4691 said:


> I honestly feel sorry for you and your husband.


I'll address both of these at once. There's a reason I use the past tense when I write about my marriage, guys 

The period of time I was describing in that paragraph was the final couple of months before I filed for divorce. The marriage was effectively dead by that point. There was no reason for me to keep pushing myself to please him or communicate anymore, so I stopped. Everything had already been said. And no, sex was not a factor in our split - we had far bigger issues to deal with.

Regarding the tone of my post: we've been divorced for 5-6 years now and my ex-H is one of my best friends. I can assure you that neither of us were laughing at the time, but we both find it all pretty funny with the benefit of hindsight.

For the record, during the "sexual fast" he was the only one playing games. He didn't last long enough for me to even notice that he was withholding it. 

As john_lord_b3 and others have been saying, in a healthy relationship most LD people put in the effort to at least try to meet their partner's needs. If everything is sound in the relationship people are usually quite happy to put in that extra effort to make their partner happy.

From what you've both been saying you have issues far greater than sex in your marriages. The lack of sex is just a symptom, it's not the problem.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

canjad80 said:


> IIRC, I believe he lasted about 3-4 weeks before he caved.


Then the guy is way too short term focused. This spring I tried a similar experiment after the lovely Dr. Mrs. LD turned MMSL on me (merchant marine sex life) 3 months later she started initiating every week or so and was visibly upset when I was not interested. Eventually I got tired and we had about the best in the last five years... This was repeated a couple weeks later. 

Unfortunately the secret LD decoder ring now indicates even 2 weeks is too often. So I suspect we will have another drought or two during which we will continue to drift apart.

Apparently, she even has a reason for the 3 week interval. She explained "her body cannot handle nookie more often than that". This is of course from someone who walks 6-7 miles a day every day, rain or shine, or who spread 16 cubic yards of mulch alone in one 3 day weekend... Apparently nookie is more taxing...


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

canjad80 said:


> As john_lord_b3 and others have been saying, in a healthy relationship most LD people put in the effort to at least try to meet their partner's needs.


I'm not deliberately trying to be argumentative, but I think most of us who have been with LD partners would disagree with this. 

An LD person must first understand that sex is a need. Many simply don't. Even worse, they view claims to the contrary as sophomoric attempts at manipulation akin to a child claiming that candy should be a dietary staple.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Maybe it's Dr. Obvious here, but let's remember that lack of sex indicating deeper problems is a self fulfilling prophecy...

In a healthy sexual life it could well be that sex allows for minor things to be resolved easier by following the standard give and take process... Or by overlooking trivial things that otherwise could escalate.


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## canjad80 (Oct 31, 2011)

^^^ Good point. I often forget about that aspect of things for people who are HD.



ocotillo said:


> I'm not deliberately trying to be argumentative, but I think most of us who have been with LD partners would disagree with this.
> 
> An LD person must first understand that sex is a need. Many simply don't. Even worse, they view claims to the contrary as sophomoric attempts at manipulation akin to a child claiming that candy should be a dietary staple.


I understand  That's why I prefaced my comment by saying "in a healthy relationship."

Both people need to be willing to take an honest look in the mirror and adjust their behaviours/attitudes to reach equilibrium. If one person is dismissive of their partner's grievances or is unwilling to try to see things from their partner's point of view then I would suggest it's not a healthy relationship.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

canjad80 said:


> I understand  That's why I prefaced my comment by saying "in a healthy relationship.


Okay. In that case, I would remove the adjectival qualifier, "Most"


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

deejov said:


> The purpose of the book is to define emotional barriers.
> It breaks down and nicely names the walls.


OK, so if I understand you correctly, any LL I don't identify with is a wall (?)

Acts of Service (AoS) do nothing for me, so you maintain I have created a wall to protect myself from emotional connection based on AoS. 

I'm thinking about this ... Also, pardon my confusion, I thought you were using the terms wall and boundary interchangeably in previous posts.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And exactly what rocket scientist of a partner would I need to fathom my "love languages"???

Acts of Service - mega LOLZ, I've lived on my own since age 17.

Words of Affirmation - self confidence is a must have in my profession, when I try to sell nefarious ideas to my clients... 

Gifts? Unless they come from a mail order camera store, don't bother.

Quality Time - well, duh, lady, between working 16 hour days and cleaning the house the other 8, quality time is an oxymoron...

This leaves (drum roll) Physical Touch. If I have to point out to the oftentimes frigid Dr. Mrs. LD that this is my so-called language, I might as well sit home and wait for J Lopez or similar to ask me out....

Likewise, as far as her languages go, it is 100% Acts of Service, be it to play career coach, headhunter, editor, fashion adviser, grammar consultant, golden retriever listening to her ramblings, consierge, and many other action descriptions that 5LL never thought would make it to the book...


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## DaveWalters (Aug 26, 2013)

Are we done? This a great stuff.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Any sightings of JLo?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Ah, the thread comes back. Ok, carry on


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Lovely thread... let's not let it die... like sex for some of us... 

Personally, I've given up. My wife doesn't really care about sex (she has her reasons - which I understand). When we finally got to the compromising stage of our married life - after 18 years of crap), we agreed on once a week (I was happy with this). Then it became twice a month and now it's once a month. My wife doesn't understand why I prefer sleeping in my office...  

It's true what someone said at the beginning of the thread: love eventually dies. Mine's dead now. I respect my wife's LD situation, and I never put pressure on her (I've done in the past), but not putting pressure has its consequences... we never have sex...  Some people go, some people stay... I'm staying for the kids. I'm pretty sure my wife knows I'll be gone eventually, but she doesn't seem to be able to do anything about it (she has a psychological condition that would be easily fixed with therapy). So, there you go.

I'd like to stress that I understand LD spouses very much. In fact, I would never dream of asking for sex every day. Once every 10 days would be ok with me. But, apparently, that takes too much effort (she's just gone to the gym for her 3 hour workout, mind you...) :smthumbup:


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