# I am a coward.



## TNC (Dec 28, 2015)

Married 10 years, 2 children under 10.

I am unhappy in my marriage. My husband knows I am unhappy but he completely disregards it and pretends everything is okay because he doesn't want me to leave. 

He tells me he will never make it easy for me to go, and that when I tell him I'm truly done, he will hate me and that we will never be friends. 

I stayed at my moms off and on for about 2 months, but have been back at the house in December because I wanted my children to have a good Christmas. 

He is very manipulative. Everything is always about him. When he sees me upset about the situation he basically turns it around on him and makes me feel worse. It's at the point where I push my feelings aside and worry horribly about his. 

He clearly does not care about my mental health because he knows this is extremely hard and yet he is just happy I am at home and doesn't seem to care that I am struggling. 

He isn't a bad guy, but I have no feelings left for him whatsoever, and haven't for years. 

I have a really hard time telling him this because I truly do not want to crush him or hurt his feelings. I am THE BIGGEST COWARD on the face of the planet. 

I feel like a friggen child stuck in an adult body. 

I have the opportunity to move into an apartment on January 1st and I've done all the leg work and I just can't seem to get the words out and tell him. I'm so scared. I don't get it. He would never physically harm me so that isn't my fear...but he just makes me feel awful. 

I have expressed to him that I think he needs counseling to deal with his emotions, but he refuses. He completely acts like everything is fine. It makes leaving feel so impossible. 

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? I've talked to my friends about this for years..and I think they are just so tired of my bullsh- and sick of hearing about it.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

you are not the biggest coward on the face of the earth.

some men (and women) can be very intimidating. sounds like your husband is one. you call him a 'good guy', but you do not describe him as a 'good' guy.

a 'good' guy would not threaten to hate you. a good guy would try to listen and not blow you off. a good guy would not ignore problems and let them fester.
a good guy would take responsibility for his own issues and not blame shift. he may be a good guy in other ways, but not these.

you need courage. it sounds like a separation may be in order. i would take that apartment.


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## TNC (Dec 28, 2015)

jorgegene said:


> you are not the biggest coward on the face of the earth.
> 
> some men (and women) can be very intimidating. sounds like your husband is one. you call him a 'good guy', but you do not describe him as a 'good' guy.
> 
> ...


Thank you for responding. And I do agree, in those aspects I describe he is not a good guy. 

I just feel like he probably thinks everything is fine because we had a decent Christmas. I wish I wasn't so wishy washy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TNC said:


> I have expressed to him that I think he needs counseling to deal with his emotions, but he refuses. He completely acts like everything is fine. It makes leaving feel so impossible.


Actually, YOU need counseling. Why? Because you're living with a manipulator, who will never change, and the ONLY way you will ever make the right choices is if YOU get therapy to learn what your value is, what your rights are in a marriage, and what to do about it.

Once you do that, you will be able to work from a position of strength and knowledge, and he will no longer have such a hold on you.


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## TNC (Dec 28, 2015)

turnera said:


> Actually, YOU need counseling. Why? Because you're living with a manipulator, who will never change, and the ONLY way you will ever make the right choices is if YOU get therapy to learn what your value is, what your rights are in a marriage, and what to do about it.
> 
> Once you do that, you will be able to work from a position of strength and knowledge, and he will no longer have such a hold on you.


I have done some counseling but nothing consistent. I do agree that I need to work on myself and my confidence.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

yes, definitely a manipulator.

and a lot of us fall victim to that, so don't feel like a coward. instead seek the truth about yourself and him and the truth will lead you
and help you with courage to do what's right. that's where a good councilor can help. or a good spiritual adviser.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

It would seem they only way to take back control of your life (and it is YOUR life to lead), would be to regain control over yourself. 

People that would manipulate another, do so with the consent of the manipulated. Whether they understand that or not. A proper councilor will help you regain your strength in such a way, that you revoke that consent. 

It's your life. It's terribly brief. You need to do what you want with it....you deserve to be happy and you don't sound very happy now. 

You can fix this, you just need some guidance


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## Imovedforthis (Dec 18, 2015)

ME!! I could have written this... my husband is a master manipulator.... 

AND he's a great dad, always taking care of the kids, letting me rest, takes care of me... so my family and friends think he is a SAINT.

I try to tell them about control issues with him and bad fights but nobody seems to care or believe me... bc they think he is SO freaking great. Seriously. It gets old! They think i'm awful bc my husband works his ass off for our me and our family. 

But he lies, he controls me, bullies me, manipulates me.... mind games galore, oh my! the mind games. so over games period. 

I have no advice... just you are not alone! I am no longer "in love" with my dh but still love him... after 13 years together I'll admit I am having a hard time detaching fully to be able to leave on my own. Divorce is in the future.. no doubt.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

TNC - you have to get a backbone some way. I know this is hard for you to do but is a must. he needs to know.

I would suggest you write down everything that you are feeling, and since you cannot talk to him about it, I would deliver it to him. Try a letter, email, text, etc.

Then present it to him, say nothing, make sure you include in there your plans to move on w/o him. Explain how serious you are.

After you present him with the letter, leave for a few days, it sounds like he will surely be in denial and defensive.

Then be prepared to move forward on your plan of action. 

He needs to understand how serious you are. 

There are some men out there that are notorious rug sweepers b/c they don't want to face reality or they will not try to understand the opposite sex.

This is a classic case, he is ignorant to what it takes to be in a REAL marriage. Do not let him control or manipulate you (this comes in many forms)

hope this helps!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What you guys really need is to start attending counseling, by yourself, to learn how to stand up for yourself when you are disrespected. Your husbands only do this because you allow it. You need to be educated on how to stop allowing it. Such men ONLY respect strength; if you're weak enough to allow it, you deserve it, in their minds. So find your strength.


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## TNC (Dec 28, 2015)

Imovedforthis said:


> ME!! I could have written this... my husband is a master manipulator....
> 
> AND he's a great dad, always taking care of the kids, letting me rest, takes care of me... so my family and friends think he is a SAINT.
> 
> ...


This is so familiar. My family thinks he is so great. One night when I was staying at my moms she went on and on about how great looking he is. I'm not looking to have arm candy mom!! His looks aren't even close to the issue here!!

When I have my family over he will make all the food, do the dishes..I mean they think he's sooooooooooo amazing. And he is..in small bursts!! They don't see that he lies to me about stupid stuff and makes me feel guilty all the time.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> What you guys really need is to start attending counseling, by yourself, to learn how to stand up for yourself when you are disrespected. Your husbands only do this because you allow it. You need to be educated on how to stop allowing it. Such men ONLY respect strength; if you're weak enough to allow it, you deserve it, in their minds. So find your strength.


Based on what little we know, and that he sounds like your typical arrogant husband, he will rug sweep the counseling and not attend.

It would be futile for her to even suggest it.

If she goes for herself, great, but she needs to give him the ultimatum and standup for her self. If not now, then she will always be someone's punching bag.

The time to take a stance is now.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

TNC said:


> This is so familiar. My family thinks he is so great. One night when I was staying at my moms she went on and on about how great looking he is. I'm not looking to have arm candy mom!! His looks aren't even close to the issue here!!
> 
> When I have my family over he will make all the food, do the dishes..I mean they think he's sooooooooooo amazing. And he is..in small bursts!! They don't see that he lies to me about stupid stuff and makes me feel guilty all the time.


There are a lot of men out there that are like this. I was one of them.

You must get his attention, the best way is to say you are leaving him. Be honest with him and your self. 

If this does not get his attention then he is not worth staying with. 

Be prepared to follow through.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

HiRoad said:


> Based on what little we know, and that he sounds like your typical arrogant husband, he will rug sweep the counseling and not attend.
> 
> It would be futile for her to even suggest it.
> 
> ...


Notice that I said "attending counseling, *by yourself*."

BTDT. Tried for YEARS to get my manipulative husband to attend counseling and when he finally went, he did absolutely nothing. I chewed out our counselor (who'd been seeing me previously) and she just said "T, this isn't about your husband. You can't control him. You can't make him change. You can't even make him WANT to change. All you can control is yourself, and you need to instead of focusing on him and what he does, focus on YOU and what YOU do. Fix THAT."

It's easy to tell women who've been controlled or manipulated to just 'stop' it. Much harder for them to actually put it into action, not without professional help. THAT is why they need therapy.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> Notice that I said "attending counseling, *by yourself*."
> 
> BTDT. Tried for YEARS to get my manipulative husband to attend counseling and when he finally went, he did absolutely nothing. I chewed out our counselor (who'd been seeing me previously) and she just said "T, this isn't about your husband. You can't control him. You can't make him change. You can't even make him WANT to change. All you can control is yourself, and you need to instead of focusing on him and what he does, focus on YOU and what YOU do. Fix THAT."
> 
> It's easy to tell women who've been controlled or manipulated to just 'stop' it. Much harder for them to actually put it into action, not without professional help. THAT is why they need therapy.


I agree she should go for herself. 

Although, she MUST somehow give him aultimatum and be able to follow through with it. Otherwise it will be the same old song and dance.

Once the husband realizes that she is serious this time then he will either snap out of it and begin to beg and plead for her forgiveness or two his true colors show and she is better of w/o him.

it makes no damn sense to stay in a marriage like that "hoping" the other changes.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> It's easy to tell women who've been controlled or manipulated to just 'stop' it. Much harder for them to actually put it into action, not without professional help. THAT is why they need therapy.


We all know that it is easier said than done. It will hurt like h3ll. But she must begin the change by changing what she has control over, herself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I guess I'm not being clear. She needs to take a stand...eventually. But until she has had a decent amount of counseling under her belt and built back up her self esteem, shredded from his antics, any attempt right now to stand up for herself will only end up him RE-manipulating her and putting her in an even more precarious (and less strong) position.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

He will hate you and not be your friend if you leave. Get used to the idea, now, because that is the inevitable outcome of divorce for many, many people. Who cares if he hates you? You're not too thrilled as it is. Why would you want to be friends with an ex anyway? Good co-parenting skills for the two of you is all you can really wish for.

Only the people in the marriage knows what is going on in the marriage. Everyone else can only point out superficial things - like his looks. He hops to it when other people are around because he doesn't want them to suspect he's a fraud.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> I guess I'm not being clear. She needs to take a stand...eventually. But until she has had a decent amount of counseling under her belt and built back up her self esteem, shredded from his antics, any attempt right now to stand up for herself will only end up him RE-manipulating her and putting her in an even more precarious (and less strong) position.


I can tell from experience this is going to be tough for her to do for the following reasons:

1. Don't know if spouse will be ok financially supporting just *her* going to counseling

2. If she goes, he will manipulate it to say *she* is the one who has the problems, hence counseling for just *her*

3. While she is going to counseling she is still being manipulated and belittled

4. All counseling is not created equal, she may get bad advice, or bad "training"

and so on....

my point is that she must act NOW.

I understand what you are saying that she must build-up or train like a boxer would for a fight, to get to the point where she could stand up for herself....

..but it may be futile. If he is a master manipulator then all that counseling may be for nothing.

Like I suggested, she must start writing (documenting) her feelings, wants, needs, now and present it to him rather than talk it out. Manipulators do not like to "talk out" anything. It goes in one ear out the other. That is why she must act on her ultimatum as HARD as it will be. Then after the ultimatum she can begin counseling on herself (my suggestion) work on repairing the damage and becoming a confident women.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I counsel women in such situations and I've seen your method fail many more times than succeed because it (1) gives the man knowledge about how to further manipulate her and (2) when it fails, it puts her down a few more pegs than she was before she tried it, and he uses that to further turn the screws on her, so that she ends up with NO self confidence or belief in herself.

Women who get into such situations simply weren't raised to be aggressive or strong or stand up for themselves; if they were, they would never have accepted such treatment in the first place - they would have left long ago. If he is a master manipulator, counseling is the ONLY thing that will protect her from it and give her concrete steps and reactions to put in place to deal with it.

T/J over.


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> T/J over.


What does that mean


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## HiRoad (Oct 22, 2012)

We can debate this all day long. 

The point is, it will ultimately be her decision to do what she feels comfortable doing. 

She has probably read all this banter back and forth from us TAMers and maybe it helped maybe not.

There is more than one way to attack this. But it will be up to TNC to execute her plan be it counseling, talking it out, leaving, divorcing, or doing nothing. It is her life to live.


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## TNC (Dec 28, 2015)

I appreciate all the responses. I do plan on getting that apartment, and I could sign the lease this week..but frick..it makes me so sick to think about telling him. I know that if I don't take it though, I will hate myself. 

I'm beyond trying to get him to do/be better. He IS better...I just still feel nothing. I've built a steel wall so high the Hulk couldn't smash it down... I love him in the sense that I want what's best for him, because I will worry about him terribly..but I don't think I can live my life with the resentment that I feel. It isn't fair to either of us. 

I NEED to do this..but it's so scary. He's going to lose his mind.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

keep posting here. it will give you strength and encouragement.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

TNC, it sounds like you have a path forward, even though you're very nervous about beginning your journey towards happiness. As you have described things, it sounds like getting a place separate from your husband will be good for you, and you are getting solid advice from the other commenters, here.

Might I inquire on some aspects not related to finding emotional happiness?

Where do you envision your two children being when you get this new apartment? If you divorce, who will have primary custody?

You don't mention anything about a job or career.

How will you be paying for rent, utilities, and food? Car insurance? Miscellaneous expenses?


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## TNC (Dec 28, 2015)

NotLikeYou said:


> TNC, it sounds like you have a path forward, even though you're very nervous about beginning your journey towards happiness. As you have described things, it sounds like getting a place separate from your husband will be good for you, and you are getting solid advice from the other commenters, here.
> 
> Might I inquire on some aspects not related to finding emotional happiness?
> 
> ...


I would like to think we will have 50/50 custody. He is a great dad at home. The apartment is in our town (it's a small town), and it's only about 5 minutes away from the house I currently live in with them. 

I have a full time job. I make almost the same as him. Money will be tight. I will be able to pay all my bills but there won't be much left over. I am okay with this, as I am very frugal and the library is right next to the apartment and a park is right down the street. I don't need to spend money to find things to do with the kids.


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## TNC (Dec 28, 2015)

I can't remember if it's in this thread or a different one I am apart of, but I'm not asking for alimony or child support and I am taking some debt with me. I'm not asking him for anything.

He owns the house we live in. He pays his grandmother, but once I leave I know his family will tell him he doesn't need to pay anymore. They have money and he will be just fine financially. 

I will struggle, but not having someone spending money on things we don't need (something he likes to do)...I may be able to save more than I think.


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## Keepin-my-head-up (Jan 11, 2013)

Getting awfully close to New Years.

When are you planning on telling him? 
New Years eve?
The day you move?
Who will the kids stay with, be taken to school by, picked up by, etc....

It won't be fun no matter what day you tell him but the sooner you do, the sooner you can work out the logistics.
Yes it will suck.
You want out though and that is the price that comes with doing so.
So Cowgirl up and git er done.

Next year can be all about counseling and improving you and your KIDS right?

This year just settle the separation


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## TNC (Dec 28, 2015)

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Getting awfully close to New Years.
> 
> When are you planning on telling him?
> New Years eve?
> ...


I have absolutely no idea when I will tell him. My friends suggested waiting until the lease is signed so he can't try to talk me out of it. 

When I was staying at my moms briefly, I still took the kids to school, even on the nights he had them. He has to be on his way to work by 6:20, so I'd get up and go there and get them ready for school. He typically does pick up, but if this goes through, on my days I don't want to ask him for anything. So I will leave work early to get them. 

I tend to cater, and I should just let him figure this out on his own..but I want the kids to feel as secure and taken care of as possible, so if going out of my way helps, I will keep doing that.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

TNC said:


> I appreciate all the responses. I do plan on getting that apartment, and I could sign the lease this week..but frick..it makes me so sick to think about telling him. I know that if I don't take it though, I will hate myself.
> 
> I'm beyond trying to get him to do/be better. He IS better...I just still feel nothing. I've built a steel wall so high the Hulk couldn't smash it down... I love him in the sense that I want what's best for him, because I will worry about him terribly..but I don't think I can live my life with the resentment that I feel. It isn't fair to either of us.
> 
> I NEED to do this..but it's so scary. He's going to lose his mind.


DO IT. I have been where you are...I had already rented my apartment and given a retainer to my attorney. The biggest hurdle was my gut wrenching fear of TELLING HIM. I was literally frozen in place at times. I finally managed to get it out, and while it was not pleasant, we both survived and I moved. There is no secret to working up to it, you just have to do it.


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## Keepin-my-head-up (Jan 11, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> DO IT. I have been where you are...I had already rented my apartment and given a retainer to my attorney. The biggest hurdle was my gut wrenching fear of TELLING HIM. I was literally frozen in place at times. I finally managed to get it out, and while it was not pleasant, we both survived and I moved. There is no secret to working up to it, you just have to do it.


QFT!
You will also go thru this when it comes time to tell the kids that you are divorcing.

Also, do your kids have any idea?
Sounds like it is going to be living at home one day and the very next-BOOM! Mom and dad are separated and now we live in a different place!
Hey kids, I know this was sudden and shocking but remember, school is right around the corner so don't forget to keep studying!

Seriously, are you hiding the fact that he is abusive?
Cause if not it is now adult time and think of your kids!
You don't have much time as it is.


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## TNC (Dec 28, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> DO IT. I have been where you are...I had already rented my apartment and given a retainer to my attorney. The biggest hurdle was my gut wrenching fear of TELLING HIM. I was literally frozen in place at times. I finally managed to get it out, and while it was not pleasant, we both survived and I moved. There is no secret to working up to it, you just have to do it.


I really needed to hear this. Thank you!


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## TNC (Dec 28, 2015)

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> QFT!
> You will also go thru this when it comes time to tell the kids that you are divorcing.
> 
> Also, do your kids have any idea?
> ...


I stayed at my moms for around 2 months back in September/October..and I have talked to them and made sure that they understand what is going on. I have told my daughter (my son is still pretty little and doesn't really grasp the whole thing) that I am going to make sure she is happy, taken care of and safe, whether that was at home, at Grandmas (when we were there) or if we moved somewhere else. I don't expect them not to be emotional about this. But my entire focus will be on them and I am certain that they will be okay.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

TNC said:


> I can't remember if it's in this thread or a different one I am apart of, but I'm not asking for alimony or child support and I am taking some debt with me. I'm not asking him for anything.
> 
> He owns the house we live in. He pays his grandmother, but once I leave I know his family will tell him he doesn't need to pay anymore. They have money and he will be just fine financially.


You can waive alimony, and if you are working and he hasn't done anything specifically "wrong" then that is the decent thing to do, but you don't waive Child Support. 

It isn't from him to you, it is there to try to ensure that the children suffer the least possible loss in standard of living when with either parent. You will probably find that it is a legal obligation that you can't waive. If you are in US then you will probably find that child support is a fixed formula for your state and you can download the spreadsheet or formula from the web.

Unless he owned the house outright before you got married then you both own the house. I fully understand the not wanting to hurt him but if you are a married couple then everything you own is joint. Don't scr3w yourself for life by throwing everything away at this stage. 

It will hurt you when you give everything and he can afford to take the kids on vacation but you can't etc. You need to be fair to yourself and you can do that without being vindictive on him.

BTW. Not wanting to unduly hurt someone that you care about or once cared about is not being a coward it's being a decent human being.


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