# Why Has Being "Nice" Become A Stigma?



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

Hey, it's me again.

Yesterday, a friend and I were talking about a project he has for a course he's taking in college. The project has to do with relationships and part of it has him interviewing students on the subject. In one of his interviews, a woman made the comment, "I don't like a man that's too nice because I don't want to someone that I can walk all over." I was thinking about this and a question came to mind, what kind of a person are you that your first instinct is to walk over someone that's treating you nicely? Why can't people, particularly in relationships, just treat kindness as it is, the attempt to help your fellow human being? Why is it that a slap to the face is more acceptable than a helping hand? Does anyone have any thoughts, ideas, or speculations? 

I'm posting this in the Ladies' Lounge and the Men's Clubhouse as I'd like both sides' opinions and I've actually seen this thinking in men and women.

Also, this may sound like I'm generalizing and I probably am but I understand also that it's case by case although it does seen as if it's the societal normality today.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

It's easier and quicker. The hard work is showing consideration and respect in negotiating a disired outcome for your self. Its so easy to cut corners and get what you want completely. when taking consideration for others, you may only get half of what you want.

It is also easier to be to nice, there is no conflict involved and there is no negotition. you except the deal and your other half will take it b/c its easier and they get the full deal with out comprmise.

I think the hard work is talking it through communicating your view and not tolorating something you disagree on. Especially if there is conflict both alphas and betes want the easiest way so the alpa takes and the bete agrees, bamb done deal and the issue is gone, and the hard work of a debat is also gone. 

Being nice to avoid conflict and takeing advantage of that niceness b/c it will gurentee 100% result in what you want with out comprimise. So go ahead take advandage of me at least i don't have the hard work of debating the issue and its easier being nice.

in my opinion the bete person will continue to be nice to avoid conflict and make exceptions b/c its easier. The alpa will continue to take b/c its easier then communicating and risk not getting a 100% desired result

Face it... it is harder to take people into consideration, you have to cummunicate and take the time to resolve something. we all want to be considerate but it take time especially if the other person continues to be wish washy on a dicision.

So coming to a conclusion on a piticular issue with out comprimising your boundries will earn you respect and the other person has to admit that they have to take the time and hard work of negotating a comprimising outcome. I think this is how respect is earned.

I think if some one want to be nice and continues to rolls over on issues to make the other person happy then I can see how one can see how easy that person is and they will take it for granted, its just easier and quicker. So being to nice is just as unhealthy as being to demanding. 

Its getting late and my brain hurts from tring to spell LOL


----------



## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

I think you have to separate being nice and being a Nice Guy. I think for many women the word Nice means they can walk all over you. Most women hate that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

I like men who are nice to me! 

I like men who are affectionate, caring, and loving! 

When I am sick, he is there taking me to the hospital, he is there bringing me water and pills! 

When I am down, he is their holding and comforting me! 

When I am shopping, he is there carrying heavy stuff for me! 

................................

I like men who are nice to me. 

But I don't like yes men! No matter what I say, he is yes yes yes or no voice! 

I don't like men who are so scared of women and they don't dare to stand up for themselves. I am not talking about jerks who get angry and abusive. I am talking about men who avoid conflicts with women! 

When your woman is being unreasonable and silly, point it out. Tell her it is not appropriate, tell her you don't like her acting like this, tell her it is unacceptable to you! And explain to her why!


----------



## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Have you or your friend considered a possibility that this woman said what she said, because she actually may have seen a couple, whose relationship dynamics sucked because of this "nice guy", taken-advantage-of guy factor? Maybe she saw this as a kid, maybe that couple were her own parents?

And that it stuck with her and defined her core want for this strong alpha male quality in her "dream guy"?

It'd have nothing to do with being "nice" becoming a stigma. It would be because she saw how miserable people were in that relationship and she identified the reasons behind the misery having had something to do with this "nice" factor.


----------



## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Hey, it's me again.
> 
> Yesterday, a friend and I were talking about a project he has for a course he's taking in college. The project has to do with relationships and part of it has him interviewing students on the subject. In one of his interviews, a woman made the comment, "I don't like a man that's too nice because I don't want to someone that I can walk all over." I was thinking about this and a question came to mind, what kind of a person are you that your first instinct is to walk over someone that's treating you nicely?


I don't think women want to walk all over these men, I think it's just the pattern they fall into, because hey who doesn't seemingly want their own way all the time. But then women don't respect this. It's not so much as being a nice guy as being a guy without a back bone or an opinion that women don't respect.



> Why can't people, particularly in relationships, just treat kindness as it is, the attempt to help your fellow human being? Why is it that a slap to the face is more acceptable than a helping hand? Does anyone have any thoughts, ideas, or speculations?


I don't think a slap in the face is better then a helping hand, however there has to be a happy medium and many men seem to either be *******s or complete doormats. This is not good.

I also want my fiance to be nice to, to be thoughtful, to give me a lot of love and affection etc. But I do not want him to let me behave badly towards him or to allow me to have my way all the time. If he thinks I'm being unreasonable, it's OK for him to say NO and disagree with me.

I want him to be manly and to take charge without being a jerk. I want him be nice enough to consider my needs and to really listen to what I am saying, but he must make decisions on what he thinks is right and not what I do.


----------



## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

It's because men she can dominate interactions with don't sexually turn her on.

Women are wired to respond to male dominance as a trigger for their sexuality. You guys might like my Primer linked below.


----------



## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

A lot of nice husbands on here are told to "man up and stop being so nice." Some confuse growing a pair with being an @sshole. They go from being too passive to being aggressive. They go overboard and forget how to be assertive.
I am a very nice and compassionate person. I have had to learn to help people less, because I was attracting too many users. I am more discriminate about who benefits from my kindness. Women have stabbed me in the back or refused to help me when I needed them.
Being nice is great. Being a pushover is not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think there’s more to this than meets the eye. Typically being “Nice” means being “Passive”, “Anything to keep the peace” type of thing. Whereas being “Not Nice”, means being “Proactive” and keeping the peace for the sake of keeping it is not an option. One is a conflict avoider, the other does not avoid conflict.

“Nice” doesn’t show their frustration in active, angry ways. They are very much more passive, so they have a “passive anger”. Their aggression is a passive aggression. And because of this “Nice” harbours grudges, dislike and anger for many years.


So I’m of the mind to think when someone says “I don’t like a man (or a woman) that’s too nice” what they are really saying is something like “I want a man who will have it out with me when we disagree. I want a man who is not afraid to “tell me like it is”. I want a man who will meet me head on and then sit down with me, resolve the conflict, make up and forget all about it. I don’t want a man who avoids conflict and because of that lets bitterness and resentment build up inside of him”.

Bob


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm married to a nice guy which is all good and fine except I'm not a mind reader. I'm also far from perfect. Now did he wake up one day and say "oh I think I'll become a doormat and let my wife walk all over me". No what happened was he took the easy road by avoiding conflict at all costs. Let me tell you this one trait might actually ruin our almost 20 year marriage unless he can learn to man up a little bit. I have needs but if I ask for them THEN he brings up things I do that bother him. WTH? And I mean things that have gone unchecked for 10 years or more.

So I agree. Being nice is great being a pushover is not.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mrs.G said:


> A lot of nice husbands on here are told to "man up and stop being so nice." Some confuse growing a pair with being an @sshole. They go from being too passive to being aggressive. They go overboard and forget how to be assertive.
> I am a very nice and compassionate person. I have had to learn to help people less, because I was attracting too many users. I am more discriminate about who benefits from my kindness. Women have stabbed me in the back or refused to help me when I needed them.
> Being nice is great. Being a pushover is not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs. G.,

I'm curious.

How do you know the guys here become @ssholes?


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> I'm married to a nice guy which is all good and fine except I'm not a mind reader. I'm also far from perfect. Now did he wake up one day and say "oh I think I'll become a doormat and let my wife walk all over me". No what happened was he took the easy road by avoiding conflict at all costs. Let me tell you this one trait might actually ruin our almost 20 year marriage unless he can learn to man up a little bit. I have needs but if I ask for them THEN he brings up things I do that bother him. WTH? And I mean things that have gone unchecked for 10 years or more.
> 
> So I agree. Being nice is great being a pushover is not.


Many are of the mind that affairs are what break up marriages. Only those that have years perhaps decades of unresolved conflict know that it’s the bitterness and resentment associated with the unresolved conflicts that finally tear a marriage apart.

Bob


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Riiiight. Oh hell naw. Nice guy? What women like this want is someone who will respect your modern feminist liberation but who will still open doors for you and pay for dinner and treat you like a princess, until of course, you remember you're better than they are and you kick em to the curb. 

As a group though, I think men, younger men, are starting to wise up to the Girlfriend-zilla Effect. It's not that they're turning passive or turning into doormats. It's that they're generally less emotionally involved and invested because the ladies are turning into men.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Riiiight. Oh hell naw. Nice guy? What women like this want is someone who will respect your modern feminist liberation but who will still open doors for you and pay for dinner and treat you like a princess, until of course, you remember you're better than they are and you kick em to the curb.
> 
> As a group though, I think men, younger men, are starting to wise up to the Girlfriend-zilla Effect. It's not that they're turning passive or turning into doormats. It's that they're generally less emotionally involved and invested because the ladies are turning into men.


Hey, at the risk of losing the neutrality I was trying to keep with this post, I do agree with this. I think it's kinda like the "cake eating" thing they talk about in the Coping With Infedility section. I really do think that the roles of men and women in relationships are becoming distorted. Anyway, I don't want to point fingers, just want a healthy discussion. 



the guy said:


> It's easier and quicker. The hard work is showing consideration and respect in negotiating a disired outcome for your self. Its so easy to cut corners and get what you want completely. when taking consideration for others, you may only get half of what you want.
> 
> It is also easier to be to nice, there is no conflict involved and there is no negotition. you except the deal and your other half will take it b/c its easier and they get the full deal with out comprmise.
> 
> ...


But what about a person that's not asking for anything in return? There's no negotiating and/or considering their feelings involved, the person is just trying to be kind for the sake of being kind, they don't expect anything in return. 



MisterNiceGuy said:


> I think you have to separate being nice and being a Nice Guy. I think for many women the word Nice means they can walk all over you. Most women hate that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you just made a point that I was about to make. The view of "nice" and "passive" have become twisted. Being nice doesn't necessarily mean the same as being passive. I've known plenty of nice people that were aggressive and mean people that were passive. 

Another point on the subject of being passive is, doesn't anyone think that the person being passive just sees things differently? Maybe what ever you want to argue about just doesn't seem that important to them? Here's an example, a man's wife comes to him and says that she just wants to have a girl's night out with her friends and he says yes. No matter what, he says yes everytime. Now, is he being passive? Maybe but does anyone think that it's just no big deal to him since he trusts his wife and understands that she just may need to unwind a little bit and maybe it does him some good as well since he's probably not into going out like that and wants a little time for himself as well? 

In the movie, "Natural Born Killers," Mickey Knox(Woody Harrelson) is being interviewed by Wayne Gale(Robert Downey Jr.) and Micky begins to talk about how he's "progressed" beyond the normal human condition and thinks differently. Mickey goes on to say that people tend do ask "Why?" and he asks "Why bother?" The point I'm making with that is, maybe the person is being passive but maybe they just don't care enough to argue the point.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> But what about a person that's not asking for anything in return? There's no negotiating and/or considering their feelings involved, the person is just trying to be kind for the sake of being kind, they don't expect anything in return.


Everybody on the planet is ultimately selfish. And in that a person always expects a payback for whatever they do, bit it a small payback or big payback.

In your example, the person being “kind” wants to be seen as a “kind person”. That’s likely their payback. Of course it could be something else.

Bob


----------



## Wrench (Mar 21, 2011)

I think it goes back to when we're all kids. I grew up with brothers and and a group of boys, when there was a problem it was dealt with. A push, a punch, crying to momma. Dealt with right away.

I'm laying in bed this morning and I hear my 6 yr old stomping up the stairs yelling her sisters name, the older one yells "WHAT". The 6 yr old snidely says "oh, I think you know what", and stomps away!? (their mom has never played that game with me)

Maybe guys become one or the other based on who raised them and what's worked in the past. But I'm just another simple man so who know's.:scratchhead:


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

But the question still remains, what does it say that a person's first response to what is considered by some to be nice is to take advantage of that person?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> But the question still remains, what does it say that a person's first response to what is considered by some to be nice is to take advantage of that person?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can't see that that was in your original proposition, or anywhere after?

A person who takes advantage of a nice person, is well a “not nice” person. Someone who uses and abuses, bit like a conman.

Bob


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> But the question still remains, what does it say that a person's first response to what is considered by some to be nice is to take advantage of that person?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you may be thinking of two things that are absolutely different but using one word (Nice) to describe the two things.

First, just to be clear I agree with AFEH that people on this planet act from what they perceive to be their best interests. Even when they act in a way that appears to be very altruistic (like Gandhi or Mother Teresa) they believe their best interest is served by caring for their "eternal life" rather than this present, physical life...so they are acting in their best interest. 

Same for a person who acts "Nice." Usually a person who acts nice is hoping in a very general way to be treating nice back. I would venture to guess that darn few people act "nice" in hopes to be disrespected, abused, or harmed back!  So if nothing else, when the person acts "nice" they hope to avoid further hurt and be left alone--but chances are pretty good they act "nice" with hopes that the other person will respond with a certain "nice" act that they want! Anyway, somewhere in the nice behavior is a payoff...and part of the fun is figuring out what the payoff is. 

BUT you are equating "nice" behavior with being a "nice guy" or "nice girl." Nope--they are different. 

Being a "nice guy" or "nice girl" is the person who is always in the friendzone, who doesn't stands up for themselves or their boundaries, and who will take the cowardly way out and placate or avoid an issue rather than courageously facing the issue realistically, taking personal responsibility where necessary, but not accepting blame or deflection. 

Now if a person is "nice guy" or "nice girl" and they meet an individual who is assertive in a healthy way, who is mature, who is individualized...the adult person is not going to want to be with a person who is an avoidant pushover. It is not attractive, interesting or healthy in the long-term. The adult will want a partner who is equally assertive, mature and individualized who has no problem speaking their mind, asking for what they need, or making a decision. The adult person would not be saying to themselves "Hey that person is nice...I think I'll take advantage of them" and thus they are not being abusive, just not interested. On the other hand, if an adult meets another adult and they are both assertive, mature, and individualized THEN they can choose to treat each other with kindness, with gentleness or with care all they want and they don't take advantage there either, because if need be they have the inner wherewithall to speak up or ask for something.


----------



## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I think there's an extremely fine line between "nice" and "doormat".
Now. I'm a nice guy, but at the same time, I tell my wife what is on my mind, what I like and, just as important, what I DON"T like, and we get along fine-we respect each other, and things are great between us.

It wasn't always like this. I would act like a puppy dog, always following her around, doing good things for her, hoping that I would get the same in return.
BIG MISTAKE. Sorta like the kid who lets other kids play with his toys and take advantage of him hoping they'll be his friend.
So, I cooled the jets somewhat: I stopped giving her random hugs and kisses, telling her I loved her 24-7, etc...
It wasn't easy, let me tell you.
But, after some time, I began to see some results. We talk about things more (not just kids, bills, what's for dinner, etc...), she's more affectionate, and believe it or not, SHE's starting to initiate sex!

Yes, I still do give her flowers for no reason, and tell her I love her and that she's beautiful, but not as much as I used to- in a nutshell, I don't come across as a super needy person who's trying too hard, and it's worked wonders.

So, I guess it boils down to what kind of partner you have: someone who appreciates your efforts and treats you with respect (my W), or someone, who, like a spoiled kid, gets what they want all the time from their "doormat", takes full advantage of it, eventually gets bored with it, and starts fighting 24-7 with their spouse, has affairs, or just treats them like yesterdays trash.

Sorry if I rambled, but I think that being a "nice guy" is not always a bad thing, but being one all the time, hoping that your spouse will see the light and start catering to you in the same way, NEVER works.


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

F-102 said:


> I think that being a "nice guy" is not always a bad thing, but being one all the time, hoping that your spouse will see the light and start catering to you in the same way, NEVER works.


This is what my dh did. I can look back and see it. He quit when resentment built up when his needs weren't being met. I didn't respond in kind because I speak a different love language than he does. I still struggle to give him what he wants because it's not natural for me.


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> But the question still remains, what does it say that a person's first response to what is considered by some to be nice is to take advantage of that person?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think most people set out to take advantage of a nice person. I mean did I take advantage of my nice dh? Yes but it wasn't intentional. I didn't meet him thinking "sweet now how can I use him to my full advantage". It didn't come down that way. I really thought I'd met this great guy and thought he'd be "nice" forever. I thought I'd hit won the lottery in men. Problem is I failed to see that <shock> he actually wanted me to be nice back. (yes I'm an idiot).


----------



## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> But the question still remains, what does it say that a person's first response to what is considered by some to be nice is to take advantage of that person?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When you see that you are being taken advantage of, the other person is not being reciprocal, stop giving or LEAVE! 

You are meeting a selfish person who only takes and doesn't understand what "give" means! 

Love and friendship go both ways. I give, you take, you reciprocate, I am happy, I give more, you get to take more......................it is a good circle. Both of us become rich and we have a lot to give! 

But if I give, you take, you think you deserve it, you think this whole world should worship you and give you, you just take it, you don't reciprocate. I suck, I want your love or friendship, I give again, but you still just take it, the most you say two words: thank you! You don't do anything to show your appreciation. Very soon, my love dies, my friendship dies, I don't want to give anymore, because I am poor. I don't have anything to give anymore. You are not making me rich by reciprocating! 

I believe that's how love and relationship work!


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> I think you may be thinking of two things that are absolutely different but using one word (Nice) to describe the two things.
> 
> First, just to be clear I agree with AFEH that people on this planet act from what they perceive to be their best interests. Even when they act in a way that appears to be very altruistic (like Gandhi or Mother Teresa) they believe their best interest is served by caring for their "eternal life" rather than this present, physical life...so they are acting in their best interest.
> 
> ...



I think what you're talking about is being weak not nice. You can't be a "nice guy" or "nice girl" without being nice can ou? 



magnoliagal said:


> I don't think most people set out to take advantage of a nice person. I mean did I take advantage of my nice dh? Yes but it wasn't intentional. I didn't meet him thinking "sweet now how can I use him to my full advantage". It didn't come down that way. I really thought I'd met this great guy and thought he'd be "nice" forever. I thought I'd hit won the lottery in men. Problem is I failed to see that <shock> he actually wanted me to be nice back. (yes I'm an idiot).


I think that might be the best answer yet and you're not an idiot, you were just unaware at the time I guess if that makes sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

It seems that you see more and more people confuse nice with being a pushover, mild, and a conflict avoider. Sometimes, though, being nice is a sign of confidence, and its the nice guys who suddenly leave you laying on your backside with a stinging bruise.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

Halien said:


> It seems that you see more and more people confuse nice with being a pushover, mild, and a conflict avoider. Sometimes, though, being nice is a sign of confidence, and its the nice guys who suddenly leave you laying on your backside with a stinging bruise.


Hey, are you me? I've been saying that for the longest time but no one listens. It takes more self-confidence to be a nice person because you're not so worried about others appraisal of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Hey, are you me? I've been saying that for the longest time but no one listens. It takes more self-confidence to be a nice person because you're not so worried about others appraisal of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My husband doesn't do things to please people. 

He doesn't care how those people think of him. 

He grew up in this religion, they have to go out knock on doors and help others believe in the Bible. My husband doesn't like that, he says they drive more people away than attract them. He goes to their meetings, he is a very nice man, but he doesn't want to do things to please people in his religion, so in this religion, he is bad association, he is not popular. He doesn't care. 

He doesn't do things normal people do. Most people want big weddings, he doesn't, he said a marriage is about two, he doesn't want other people to be in his wedding. Everybody here has a car, he doesn't. He said a motorcycle suits his needs. Everybody wants a big house if they can afford, he doesn't. He said a two bedroom apartment is enough for two of us. Other men give flowers and gifts when they chase their girlfriends, he doesn't, he said things he won't do after he gets married he wouldn't do before he gets married. 

But HE IS ONE NICE MAN. He is faithful, responsible, loving, caring, affectionate, and good in bed. He doesn't smoke, drinks a little, doesn't touch drugs, he has a very good temper, never raises his voice, he keeps himself very clean and fit. I have no complaints about him! 

He avoids conflicts with people in general(he says he doesn't care, they are none of his business. With people in general, he is well mannered, very polite), he doesn't avoid conflicts with me, he knows when to bow down, he knows when to stand up! 

I am being married to a unique man!


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> I think you may be thinking of two things that are absolutely different but using one word (Nice) to describe the two things.
> 
> First, just to be clear I agree with AFEH that people on this planet act from what they perceive to be their best interests. Even when they act in a way that appears to be very altruistic (like Gandhi or Mother Teresa) they believe their best interest is served by caring for their "eternal life" rather than this present, physical life...so they are acting in their best interest.
> 
> ...


Well said Affaircare. It takes a lot to get where you are and a few bumps and bruises on the way. But those things heal.

Bob


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> I don't think most people set out to take advantage of a nice person. I mean did I take advantage of my nice dh? Yes but it wasn't intentional. I didn't meet him thinking "sweet now how can I use him to my full advantage". It didn't come down that way. I really thought I'd met this great guy and thought he'd be "nice" forever. I thought I'd hit won the lottery in men. Problem is I failed to see that <shock> he actually wanted me to be nice back. (yes I'm an idiot).


If you were "nice back" then you too would be as bitter and resentful about the past as your H is!

Bob


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

In my opinion neither guys nor girls are nice enough, often enough and being nice alone should never be an issue.


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

AFEH said:


> If you were "nice back" then you too would be as bitter and resentful about the past as your H is!
> 
> Bob


Really? So he's nice to me and had I been nice back wouldn't that have stopped resentment on both sides? He grew to resent me because I wasn't being nice and I grew to resent him because he quit being nice. Vicious cycle that could have been avoided had I known what I know now.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

To quote the great Roger Federer, "It's nice to be good but it's better to be nice." Maybe Swiss is a better place for nice people


----------



## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

The stigma isn't with being "nice." There's just a miscommunication that stems from using the same words for two different things.

"Nice" = kind.

On this site, "nice guy" = compliant (doormat).

They are two completely different things.

Here are examples of both from my current relationship:

*Nice*

My GF wasn't able to mow her lawn this weekend because we stayed pretty busy. Next weekend she'll have her son for Easter weekend. I'm considering surprising her by mowing her lawn one morning this week so that she can spend that extra time with her son. She hasn't asked, nor does she expect it. It would be a _kind_ act (nice).

*Not "Nice-guy"*

A couple of weeks ago we were planning on spending Friday night together. She'd mentioned earlier in the week that the people in her office were going out for a drink after work that Friday to celebrate an upcoming milestone, but that she wasn't going.

On that Friday afternoon, I sent her a text asking her to let me know if she'd changed her mind about the after-hours work thing - no response. I showed up at her house assuming she wasn't going. She went with her work "gang" and showed up at her house about an hour after I expected her.

Now here's the thing. After waiting 30 minutes, I left and ran an errand. When she got home she called me asking when I'd get there. I told her that I was running an errand and would come over when I was done.

When I got there, after our "hello," I sat her down and told her that not telling me or even texting me about her change of plans made me feel somewhat insignificant. I said that if she left me hanging like that again, I'd just do something else on that evening.

She is VERY sweet and we have a great relationship. However, I have boundaries, and she crossed one. A "nice guy" would have waited and not said anything. I know, because I was a "nice guy" for YEARS with my exW. 

I have fixed that part of me.

But I'm still nice (kind).


----------



## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> When you see that you are being taken advantage of, the other person is not being reciprocal, stop giving or LEAVE!
> 
> You are meeting a selfish person who only takes and doesn't understand what "give" means!
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I actually like "nice men".

I think we have enough Alpha males out there to take charge, be in control and never show any weakness.

I find a man who is able to cry, show weakness and be, well....human to be very refreshing.

I've never understood the attraction to the "bad boy" or Alpha male - I guess I'm just cut from a different cloth.


----------



## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> My husband doesn't do things to please people.
> 
> He doesn't care how those people think of him.
> Same here, my dear. Mr.G only cares what *I *think of his choices. :smthumbup:
> ...


We are lucky ladies!


----------



## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I actually like "nice men".
> 
> I think we have enough Alpha males out there to take charge, be in control and never show any weakness.
> 
> ...


My husband is a delightful mix of alpha and beta. He wept on our wedding day, which was a nice surprise. He has no qualms about being affectionate and showering me with kisses. :smthumbup: Yet, he puts his foot down when my voice gets too loud or I become disrespectful. 
Alpha doesn't mean "bad boy" though.


----------



## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Mrs. G.,
> 
> I'm curious.
> 
> How do you know the guys here become @ssholes?


Good question, Conrad.

I didn't say that they all turn into @ssholes, just some.
Of course, I only know what is posted here. I don't live with them, so only their words can tell me what goes on.
I've seen some reformed nice guys, brag about how mean they are to their wives, now that they have "manned up".


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Mrs.G said:


> My husband is a delightful mix of alpha and beta. He wept on our wedding day, which was a nice surprise. He has no qualms about being affectionate and showering me with kisses. :smthumbup: Yet, he puts his foot down when my voice gets too loud or I become disrespectful.
> Alpha doesn't mean "bad boy" though.


True - but a lot of women consider Alpha men to be "bad boys."

But you're right - one shoe doesn't fit all.


----------



## mr.miketastic (Aug 5, 2010)

Ok, I have an opinion about comments like " Well he's too nice and I don't want someone I can walk all over"

That is BS, pure and simple. How about I don't want someone who is going to be a using a-hole and take advantage of my kindness?
Self-control folks; It's easy to make an excuse for bad behavior, and blame it all on the other person for being "too nice", but apparently it's too difficult and cognitively dissonant to own up to acting the a$$.


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

OOE said:


> When I got there, after our "hello," I sat her down and told her that not telling me or even texting me about her change of plans made me feel somewhat insignificant. I said that if she left me hanging like that again, I'd just do something else on that evening.


This is where I've missed the mark over the years. I think my dh does say things like this....sorta but I would choose not to listen. He stopped short of the consequence though. I see now that I need to pay attention more to what he's saying and question his body language if I see he's upset.


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> True - but a lot of women consider Alpha men to be "bad boys."
> 
> But you're right - one shoe doesn't fit all.


The few alpha men I dated were bad boys. They were also young though so maybe later they grew up to be fine men who knows.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> The few alpha men I dated were bad boys. They were also young though so maybe later they grew up to be fine men who knows.


People do change as they age (they become more mellow) - most do - not all!


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

mr.miketastic said:


> Ok, I have an opinion about comments like " Well he's too nice and I don't want someone I can walk all over"
> 
> That is BS, pure and simple. How about I don't want someone who is going to be a using a-hole and take advantage of my kindness?
> Self-control folks; It's easy to make an excuse for bad behavior, and blame it all on the other person for being "too nice", but apparently it's too difficult and cognitively dissonant to own up to acting the a$$.


Exactly, what happens to personal accountability? The other person is doing what they're supposed to do in a relationship, act like they're in a relationship. Why are they being punished for it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It's more nuanced than that. I am non confrontational and compliant at home yet I am not a nice guy. I will give you a kidney if you need it but I will not stand there while you rifle through your purse for 15 minutes looking for that $5 coupon. And if you're grumbling generally being a beotch, that's what I have earbuds for. But whatever it is you need, if you need it and you can articulate that clearly in a way that's not yelling or hanging on the cross, then fine. You see, I'm a survivor. We are not 'nice' people. 

I think the basic disconnect is that we aren't really that concerned about the hills you want to die on while you on the other hand are perfectly willing to make EVERYTHING a heroic battle to the death, whatever it is, no matter how trivial and stupid. 

Most 'nice' people are only 'nice' in relation to the mental case spouse or BF/GF they're chained to. It's like being a child of an alcoholic. Or as we used to say "our favorite day of the year was Mommy's birthday because she was too drunk to beat us."

Not really, but you get the point.


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> It's more nuanced than that. I am non confrontational and compliant at home yet I am not a nice guy. I will give you a kidney if you need it but I will not stand there while you rifle through your purse for 15 minutes looking for that $5 coupon. And if you're grumbling generally being a beotch, that's what I have earbuds for. But whatever it is you need, if you need it and you can articulate that clearly in a way that's not yelling or hanging on the cross, then fine. You see, I'm a survivor. We are not 'nice' people.
> 
> I think the basic disconnect is that we aren't really that concerned about the hills you want to die on while you on the other hand are perfectly willing to make EVERYTHING a heroic battle to the death, whatever it is, no matter how trivial and stupid.
> 
> ...


I find this post incredibly sad. A survivor. Yes that's what you are. You've done what you've had to do to survive a bad situation. 

I still can't wrap my brain around the part where you say you aren't nice. First thought that comes to mind is my mother who had to live with my awful father. Inside she was raging but outwardly she did what she had to do to survive living with my father. She wasn't "nice" either as I've only recently learned in therapy. It's all very complicated.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Oh I meant that in many different ways. I know I am the last person you want to look to be a role model. I am FAR from a good and nice person. When I'm on an airplane you'll be able to find your path to the emergency exits by the trail of my footprints on the back of everyone's heads. When my dad was in a coma and dying my whole family nominated me out loud at the same time to be the person to execute the medical proxy to disconnect him. They didn't even hesitate and neither did I. 

I am not even supposed to be here. My birth certificate is blank. No first name. My mother didn't expect me to survive long enough. I went temporarily blind from a bout of encephalitis at age 4. I didn't talk until I was 5. I fell out of moving car at 10. Walked in front of another car at 11. Stole a car and totaled it at 100mph at 14. Tried to kill myself 3 times before 16. Put in the juvie infirmary a bunch of times fighting off sexual predators. Assaulted a cop at 17 and wound up in a 63 day coma. Got committed to the mental hospital again after that. Got cancer at 29 and again at 36. And 3 years ago I discovered there's a high probably I will get Alzheimer's.
Part of my job involves being psychologically evaluated for dealing with stress. I come out pretty ruthless. They tell me it comes from having nothing left to be truly afraid of.


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Oh I meant that in many different ways. I know I am the last person you want to look to be a role model. I am FAR from a good and nice person.


Those experiences no matter how horrific still tell me you are a survivor. We could swap tragic childhood stories all day long and it wouldn't change my opinion. These things don't define you they are necessary to survive. Despite everything you are still here and on these boards so obviously you have some kind of hope or you wouldn't be here. You would have given up already but you haven't. 

FWIW I think sometimes being good and nice is highly overrated. Only reason I want to be nicer is for my husband and my kids. I love them. The rest of the world can bite me and leave me the f alone.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Oh I meant that in many different ways. I know I am the last person you want to look to be a role model. I am FAR from a good and nice person. When I'm on an airplane you'll be able to find your path to the emergency exits by the trail of my footprints on the back of everyone's heads. When my dad was in a coma and dying my whole family nominated me out loud at the same time to be the person to execute the medical proxy to disconnect him. They didn't even hesitate and neither did I.
> 
> I am not even supposed to be here. My birth certificate is blank. No first name. My mother didn't expect me to survive long enough. I went temporarily blind from a bout of encephalitis at age 4. I didn't talk until I was 5. I fell out of moving car at 10. Walked in front of another car at 11. Stole a car and totaled it at 100mph at 14. Tried to kill myself 3 times before 16. Put in the juvie infirmary a bunch of times fighting off sexual predators. Assaulted a cop at 17 and wound up in a 63 day coma. Got committed to the mental hospital again after that. Got cancer at 29 and again at 36. And 3 years ago I discovered there's a high probably I will get Alzheimer's.
> Part of my job involves being psychologically evaluated for dealing with stress. I come out pretty ruthless. They tell me it comes from having nothing left to be truly afraid of.


Runs, sorry to hear about your past. We all try to deal with tough pasts in different ways, but I know exactly what you are talking about when you say that you have no more to fear in life. My friends think its so strange that I never startle, and they always joke about me calmly eating a sandwich on the way out of work if the place was on fire. 

I attended schools for troubled boys for multiple years, and got through it by being totally unpredicatable in encounters. 

Now, I'm obsessed with trying to be a nice guy, but my wife says I lack the skills deep down. At work, I'm a popular supervisor, yet I still lose it occasionally, and punish myself endlessly. Yes, I go through counseling, but I can't remember large chunks of my childhood. 

Recently, I was picking up my daughter at college, and a jaywalker was trying to impress his girlfriend by hurling obsceneties into my daughter's window. I stopped in the middle of the street and without getting physical, made him apologize to her (I look like a bouncer). He cried. My daughter cried in shame, and has barely spoken to me since. Thing is, I have never once lost my cool with my wife and children, but they know its there.


----------



## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

From Mrs.G



I admire your husband for taking a stand against narrow minded religious people. It take a lot of courage. My husband is an atheist. I don't like that, but I cannot force him to believe in God. We all have to walk our own spiritual paths.


Who says a big wedding is "normal"?

Though I wish we could have afforded a larger celebration, I'm glad I had enough sense, not to defer to bullies who wanted to plan our wedding like it was theirs.

How do you feel about your husband's choices? We are all different...I would not be pleased if my husband never wanted to have a car. I would not even date a man who didn't romance me with dates or give me flowers. I expect gifts on special occasions, just like I would give them.







Hi Mrs.G 

It is not easy for us to be in their religion. He violated their rule by marrying me. They are discouraged to marry someone who is not in their religion. We got married, I started going to their meetings, I slept two years during the meetings. I woke up, I wanted to study their religion, after I found out what is really going on, it was too late. It was a lot of struggling for me, I liked the practical things they teach about life, they really have good stuff about how to run a marriage, about how to get along with people, about how to live an organized life. They are nice people. But on the other hand, they also teach what I consider to be ridiculous. We stopped going to their meetings for almost a year because I couldn't take the extreme part! 

In that one year, I immersed myself in Buddhism wisdom, it really helped me achieve peace. 

Now we are back in their meetings. We choose to go back because of many reasons. No 1. I can't go to other religion, my husband's requirement. No 2. To ease my mother-in-law's worry. I know what she is worrying about, I don't want her to be stressed out because of us. In Chinese culture, making your parents worry is not considered filial. No 3. They are good people if you ignore the extreme part! Now I go to their meetings, but I keep a distance from them, so I don't let them show their extreme side in front of me. It makes me feel peaceful. I take into the good part they are teaching. I ignore the extreme part they are trying to advertise. 

Talking about having a car, buying flowers, and giving gifts. It is important for me to tell you where I came from.  I grew up in a peasant family in China, we only had basic stuff. When I was a child, we didn't even have enough food to eat, we were always short of food. My family didn't have money to pay my tuition, my mother always had to go to her friends to borrow money to pay my tuition. And she would take me with her, it wasn't a good feeling, I swear now that I never want to borrow money from other people. I don't want to be in debt. 

I grew up in a humble background, I didn't and don't need much to be content and happy! 

When I met my husband( 26), he just paid off his student loan back in Canada. I knew he didn't have much money. I was attracted by his personality. I knew he was the man I wanted. I could get a lot of flowers and gifts from other men, but the men were not who I wanted. Flowers and gifts couldn't bring me the joy my husband could! He was humorous, he was attentive, he was understanding, he was affectionate. His hugs and kisses were soft and warm. I wanted this man. I really didn't think much what he didn't buy for me. I only noticed what he could give me. And what he could give me was what I wanted! 

Now I tease him often for being cheap during our dating time!  

Now he lets me buy flowers every week. Flowers are cheap in Taiwan, he knows that I love flowers, I can buy them every week!  For gifts, we buy something nice for me every anniversary. We go shopping together, I am very picky for things. It is difficult for him to find something I like. Other things if I need them, I tell him, then we go shopping together.  I don't feel I am deprived for anything! 

And love from him is what really makes me happy! I have this man, material things can't compare!


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

Not to get into a theological battle but I find atheism to be a massive contradiction. They say that they don't believe in God but that statement acknowledges the existence of God. I guess what I'saying, if I'm saying anything, is that without God, you wouldn't have something to not believe in.

Anyway, when did nice, passive, and weak get twisted into the same meaning and can it be untangled?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Oh I meant that in many different ways. I know I am the last person you want to look to be a role model. I am FAR from a good and nice person. When I'm on an airplane you'll be able to find your path to the emergency exits by the trail of my footprints on the back of everyone's heads. When my dad was in a coma and dying my whole family nominated me out loud at the same time to be the person to execute the medical proxy to disconnect him. They didn't even hesitate and neither did I.
> 
> I am not even supposed to be here. My birth certificate is blank. No first name. My mother didn't expect me to survive long enough. I went temporarily blind from a bout of encephalitis at age 4. I didn't talk until I was 5. I fell out of moving car at 10. Walked in front of another car at 11. Stole a car and totaled it at 100mph at 14. Tried to kill myself 3 times before 16. Put in the juvie infirmary a bunch of times fighting off sexual predators. Assaulted a cop at 17 and wound up in a 63 day coma. Got committed to the mental hospital again after that. Got cancer at 29 and again at 36. And 3 years ago I discovered there's a high probably I will get Alzheimer's.
> Part of my job involves being psychologically evaluated for dealing with stress. I come out pretty ruthless. They tell me it comes from having nothing left to be truly afraid of.


Dog - I know things have been rough on you, but how you view your "past" determines how you live your future.

You view your past as negative, therefore your future is the same.

Hence the reason you are in a marriage you don't want with someone you despise (your words).

Lots of people have bad past(s). I've had way more than my share. The joke around my office and family is: you want to feel better about your life, spend about 10 minutes with ____.

My point is - you have to overcome and quit questioning why life has thrown you more curve balls than the average human being should have. It just happens. 

Bad things happen to good people and bad people get away with a lot of $hit - it happens, no explanation, no right or wrong - it just is what it is.

I could have rolled over and played dead a long time ago with all the rotten, bad-luck, crap that has been thrown my way.

But I have chosen to overcome it and look to a brighter future. Not easy, but it can be done.

Life sometimes sucks - it does.

But how you get back up and move to the next "adventure" determines the strength of your character and how you can improve your future and put aside the past (not forget it, just put it aside as the past - that's why it is the past - it's behind you, not in front of you).

I just wish I could sit down and shake you and get it through your head that you deserve better and could have better - easier than you think - but it first starts with changing your attitude.

As I've said before, I feel for you.


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Halien said:


> Now, I'm obsessed with trying to be a nice guy, but my wife says I lack the skills deep down. At work, I'm a popular supervisor, yet I still lose it occasionally, and punish myself endlessly. Yes, I go through counseling, but I can't remember large chunks of my childhood.


See this is me. Got a therapy appt today as a matter of fact. I respectfully disagree with your wife. Skills to me implies something you can learn. I've blocked out most of my childhood but that hasn't stopped me from being determined to have a better life. My parents presently hate me and wish me dead...literally (we are estranged 12 years now) but that doesn't mean I can't learn to be nice and learn to quit punishing myself endlessly as well. It's just a long painful process but one thats worth it.


----------



## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> how you view your "past" determines how you live your future.
> 
> You view your past as negative, therefore your future is the same.


Thank you so much for posting this, MWIL. I've been trying to internalize this for months and seeing it written out helps tremendously


----------



## mr.miketastic (Aug 5, 2010)

In some ways we tend to attract the energy we give off, and in other ways if we project "victim" predators start circling.
I was reading a book about the "martial way" and in one of the chapters, the author was talking about projecting the aura of a warrior. I guess it's one of those situations where you need to be a warrior internally, and the rest takes care of itself.

Please forgive the below cut-and-paste as it's full of many mistakes in punctuation, but the message is pretty powerful.




This story is taken from the book, "Living the Martial Way" by Forrest Morgan, Maj., USAF Copyright 1992. Pages274-276

There is an old story often told in traditional training halls about a confrontation between a master of the Japanese tea ceremony and a ronin- a rogue samurai. It seems the ronin was passing through the village and while in the crowded square, turned abruptly, banging his scabbard against the tea master's hip.
"You banged my sword" the ronin said coldly.
"That is a grave insult, and I will kill you for it"

The tea master knew immediately the ronin really meant to kill him, and he was gripped with fear. "I meant you no insult, Noble Sir. Please excuse my clumsiness and let me live, as you can see, I'm not a warrior and have no sword." 

The ronin could smell the man's fear, and it excited him. "Then get a sword and meet me on the road tomorrow at noon. There, I'll let you die like a man. But if you don't show up, I'll find you wherever you are and cut you down like a dog." He turned his back on the stunned tea master and walked away.

The tea master was beside himself with fear. What can I do, he thought. I'm a dead man. Then he remembered hearing that another ronin, a famous master swordsman, was also in the village. Perhaps he will help me, he thought. So he sought out the swordsman and told him his story. He explained that he had money to pay for his services and offered to hire him for protection.

"I don't hire to commoners", the swordsman said coolly. "Use your money to buy a sword and fight your own battles."

"Then will you teach me swordsmanship? I can pay you handsomely.

" I don't teach martial arts to commoners, either.Besides, what do you think you can learn in a day?", the swordsman asked.


"What have I to lose?

" Indeed, thought the swordsman. Even though the man was a commoner, the samurai realized he was an innocent victim needing help. He finally agreed to teach the tea master what little swordsmanship he could in a day. The tea master bought a sword, and the two men began their practice that afternoon. But alas, the tea master struggled through hundreds of awkward practIce cuts, he shook his head and sighed.

"Tomorrow, you are going to die," the swords- man said with calm conviction; The tea master was crushed. He was physically and emotionally exhausted., He dropped his sword to his side and stood there staring at the ground, shoulders sagging and sword hanging loosely from his hand. The samurai pondered him f9r a moment then said, "Let's have tea." The tea master looked up in puzzlement, but carefully sheathed his sword and began unpacking his tea set


The two men settled beneath a tree, and the tea master gracefully poured water into the bowl con- , stirring the bitter, green powder. As he artfully whisked the mixture into a frothy brew, the swordsman saw a remarkable transformation occur. Gone was the tired, broken man who stood before him only moments ago. Now the tea master's back was straight, his shoulders square, and his head erect.
Before the swordsman now sat the solemn, dignified master of an ancient ritual. The master poured ,the tea into a cup and, turning it in the ritual manner, offered it to the swordsman. His face was the picture of calmness, and looking into his eyes, the swordsman knew immediately the man was in mushin."Stop!", the swordsman said finally. "Do you want to kill your enemy tomorrow?"

"You said I am going to die."

"You are, but do you want to die like a warrior?
Do you want to kill you enemy?"

"Yes," the tea master said calmly.

"Then do what you are doing right now.


'Exactly! Your mind is empty. You neither desire life nor fear death. Tomorrow when you meet your enemy, I want you to empty your mind as you have now and raise your sword above your head. When .
he attacks, do nothing but cut and die.

" The tea master, being a master, understood.


The next day the ronin was surprised to find the tea master standing in the road, waiting for him.
When he approached and the man raised the sword above his head, the ronin chuckled to himself. But as he got closer, he began to feel uneasy. He expected to see the man shaking in fear, but the tea master's sword was still, and his face was grimly calm. He stopped a few paces away and searched the tea master's eyes. He saw nothing...only death.


The ronin's mouth went dry. After a moment he said, "I cannot defeat you." He turned and walked away.


This story holds more than what is written in' black and white. Apply what you can and learn.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

MGirl said:


> Thank you so much for posting this, MWIL. I've been trying to internalize this for months and seeing it written out helps tremendously


You're welcome.

Though it's not my quote. I read it somewhere else and it hit home for me.

You can't ever forget your past. But looking at it as the past and determining what lessons you learned from it and working to not repeat the same mistakes determines that your future will not repeat your past.

Hard thing to learn, but once you "get it", it helps tremendously. It's definitely helped me to move past my past.

Now, if I could get my husband to "get it" - he would feel a whole lot better (me too!).


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Why thank you. Seriously.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Hey Runs...you're blunt and honest. I like this in a person more than any other trait. I get that others don't. That it makes them uncomfortable but I respect it.

I also get that your humor leans on the dry humor that almost mocks your sense of honesty and makes fun of yourself & experiences. I think you're hilarious.

Honest & Hilarious are two words that I personally admire in others.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Not to get into a theological battle but I find atheism to be a massive contradiction. They say that they don't believe in God but that statement acknowledges the existence of God. I guess what I'saying, if I'm saying anything, is that without God, you wouldn't have something to not believe in.
> 
> Anyway, when did nice, passive, and weak get twisted into the same meaning and can it be untangled?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hence Agnostic is the only logical choice. Basically you're saying...I have no f'ing idea.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Hence Agnostic is the only logical choice. Basically you're saying...I have no f'ing idea.


Thanks, man. That's what I was kinda going for.:smthumbup: I like to keep 'em dazed and confused.


----------



## DepressedHusband (Apr 22, 2011)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Not to get into a theological battle but I find atheism to be a massive contradiction. They say that they don't believe in God but that statement acknowledges the existence of God. I guess what I'saying, if I'm saying anything, is that without God, you wouldn't have something to not believe in.
> 
> Anyway, when did nice, passive, and weak get twisted into the same meaning and can it be untangled?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thuroughly refute the polstulation about any diety/dietys claimed to exist regardless of origin,cultuer,creed,geographics and or planetary allegiance.. Provide real testable evidence to the existance and truth of any religion, and I will listen. 

Ears have been empty for a long time. 

Its a gramatical trick and a well rehearsed atheist with strong debate skill" someone whos been on the debate team a time or 2" will often handily throw this turd right back at the person who insists on flinging it. .


----------



## DepressedHusband (Apr 22, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Hence Agnostic is the only logical choice. Basically you're saying...I have no f'ing idea.


Not really, atheism is simply the lack of subscription to any supernatural force. Agnostic is just a term the religous right uses to swell the numbers of belivers in thier particular diety so they poll better. 

Basically agnostics and athiests are the same. 

if your bored

Teller of pen and teller has a great bit about how Agnostics are atheist and agnostics are full of **** on youtube


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

DepressedHusband said:


> I thuroughly refute the polstulation about any diety/dietys claimed to exist regardless of origin,cultuer,creed,geographics and or planetary allegiance.. Provide real testable evidence to the existance and truth of any religion, and I will listen.
> 
> Ears have been empty for a long time.
> 
> Its a gramatical trick and a well rehearsed atheist with strong debate skill" someone whos been on the debate team a time or 2" will often handily throw this turd right back at the person who insists on flinging it. .


I take it you're an atheist, I believe in God but I think that people misunderstand the concept of God. The initial word for God in ancient Kemet(Egypt) was Netcher which is where the word "nature" eventually came from. These people believed in the concept of Ra, Horus, and Osiris being different facets of nature as opposed to actual beings as they came to be known when the Greeks adopted and distorted the concept with Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades. This is why religion, not the belief in God, but religion only works but for so long if it does. Yes, I believe that there is a God and, for lack of a better term, "he's" all around us. This is off topic and I mainly replied to "save face" so that people wouldn't think you punked me, I'd love to continue this through P.M. as I don't believe that I've ever been able to discuss this with an atheist.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Unless this is going to segue into an analysis of Adam as the first 'Nice Guy', I agree with Misguided Miscreant, please leave matters of theism or atheism to PM's or discussion in the appropriate forum ... we do have one that deals with such topics.

I did enjoy Mr. Miketastic's bit about the tea master. Some good stuff in that parable.


----------



## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> I like men who are nice to me!
> 
> I like men who are affectionate, caring, and loving!
> 
> ...


Excellent distinction drawn here, and sounds very healthy. The thing to remember about being "too nice", the words used in the original post, is that it demonstrates that you have no boundaries. Everyone wants to know where the boundaries are, in every situation. Men and women crave meaning and structure, and authority, to some degree. 

It is not that we are amoral and want to walk all over someone else, it is that we want our partner to feel free to speak up when the boundaries are being violated, before everything blows up. It's not "nice" to stuff every perceived slight and bad feeling, until it all blows up one day. It's not "nice" to act fine to her face, but talk trash about her behind her back. It's not "nice" to want to pull her hair and ravage her and dominate her, but to be too afraid to ever try anything that's not plain vanilla. Ho hum.


----------



## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Hey, at the risk of losing the neutrality I was trying to keep with this post, I do agree with this. I think it's kinda like the "cake eating" thing they talk about in the Coping With Infedility section. I really do think that the roles of men and women in relationships are becoming distorted. Anyway, I don't want to point fingers, just want a healthy discussion.


I think the tone of what Mr. Dog said belies a kind of resentment and anger that is being held beneath the surface, and you agree with that. It's as if you solely blame the women involved, without taking any responsibility for your own boundaries, and your own obligation to be assertive about what you want. Then you turn around and say that you are the kind of person who is just nice to be nice.




MisguidedMiscreant said:


> But what about a person that's not asking for anything in return? There's no negotiating and/or considering their feelings involved, the person is just trying to be kind for the sake of being kind, they don't expect anything in return.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think you're helping your case any by quoting a (fictional) serial killer. This is just the sort of passive anger and creepiness that is just below the surface of the "too nice" person. "Oh, I'll be nice, alright, but it dang sure better be nice back, or it gets the hose again." This is the sort of thing that makes people say they don't want to be with someone who is too nice.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

ManDup

It's not really about 'nice' it's about equity. It's about some semblance of gratitude. No one's life is perfect, honey, so let's just accept that and try not to spend every waking moment telling me you're disappointed and angry at that. 

I've never found that feeding someone's glum depressive anger helps anyone. Passive aggressive? Sure is. And it's the only way to survive an angry tyrant.


----------



## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> ManDup
> 
> It's not really about 'nice' it's about equity. It's about some semblance of gratitude. No one's life is perfect, honey, so let's just accept that and try not to spend every waking moment telling me you're disappointed and angry at that.
> 
> I've never found that feeding someone's glum depressive anger helps anyone. Passive aggressive? Sure is. And it's the only way to survive an angry tyrant.


No, I wouldn't feed it either. Neither would I ignore it. If some woman spends all her time whining about how bad things are, that's not what I would call a keeper. 

By not ignoring it, I mean I would say something just like what you said in the first paragraph. In response to continual whining about how life sucks, something along the lines of "No one's life is perfect, honey, so let's just accept that and try not to spend every waking moment telling me you're disappointed and angry at that" seems custom-made. The resentment comes in when you are "too nice" and don't vocalize those frustrations. If a woman's behavior is out of line (past your boundaries), let her know.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Let her know verbally at first (caution lite)

If she becomes defensive, belittling, and judgemental?

Show her with body language and behavior.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

ManDup said:


> I think the tone of what Mr. Dog said belies a kind of resentment and anger that is being held beneath the surface, and you agree with that. It's as if you solely blame the women involved, without taking any responsibility for your own boundaries, and your own obligation to be assertive about what you want. Then you turn around and say that you are the kind of person who is just nice to be nice.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you're helping your case any by quoting a (fictional) serial killer. This is just the sort of passive anger and creepiness that is just below the surface of the "too nice" person. "Oh, I'll be nice, alright, but it dang sure better be nice back, or it gets the hose again." This is the sort of thing that makes people say they don't want to be with someone who is too nice.


I am assertive as was proven when I responded when called out on my theories on atheists, I defended my views. Also, I do agree with what was said but I also said that I didn't speak to point fingers since it gets us nowhere. I do have boundaries and things that I will not stand for as anyone who truly knows me will attest to but that's really a different topic for a different day, the question still remains, why is it a person's first instinct to take advantage of someone that's being kind?

On the topic of Mickey Knox, what the character was is irrelevant, the point was that some people seem passive because what's at stake just isn't that important. You said that the character was a serial killer, does that strike you as a passive individual? I assume you've seen the movie, did anything he did seem passive? Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that it was John Doe and they asked him, "Why did you let that person 'walk all over you?'" He replies, "Why bother? It wasn't that important to waste time arguing." What would be your thoughts on that exchange?

You may take this as a personal attack on you, don't worry because it slightly is. You seem to be the other side of the coin, you seem to be one of the people that assumes that every person that shows kindness is just waiting to strike. Why is that? I admit that I sometimes have vindictive and vengeful thoughts when wronged or suffered a perceived slight but I really don't waste the energy, people do a better job of exacting vengeance upon themselves than I ever could. I just continue on being the type of person that I want to be, positive, and refrain from relinquishing control of who I am to that person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> I am assertive as was proven when I responded when called out on my theories on atheists, I defended my views. Also, I do agree with what was said but I also said that I didn't speak to point fingers since it gets us nowhere. I do have boundaries and things that I will not stand for as anyone who truly knows me will attest to but that's really a different topic for a different day, the question still remains, why is it a person's first instinct to take advantage of someone that's being kind?
> 
> On the topic of Mickey Knox, what the character was is irrelevant, the point was that some people seem passive because what's at stake just isn't that important. You said that the character was a serial killer, does that strike you as a passive individual? I assume you've seen the movie, did anything he did seem passive? Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that it was John Doe and they asked him, "Why did you let that person 'walk all over you?'" He replies, "Why bother? It wasn't that important to waste time arguing." What would be your thoughts on that exchange?
> 
> ...


Sorry, you probably forgot this thread was here by now. I didn't say the character was passive; far from it. I was saying that talking about a serial killer in the context of being too nice is a kind of passive-aggressive creepy. Not nice, but rather "nice".


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

ManDup said:


> Sorry, you probably forgot this thread was here by now. I didn't say the character was passive; far from it. I was saying that talking about a serial killer in the context of being too nice is a kind of passive-aggressive creepy. Not nice, but rather "nice".


You're reading too much into that. Frankly, I had just seen the movie at the time and it was a great quote that helped to illustrate the point I was making. The source of the message shouldn't matter as much as the message itself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## preppy12 (May 17, 2011)

Women don't like nice guys because of biology. In the past, women used to go only after cave men because they were the only ones who could provide protection. That's why women still fall for these guys.


----------



## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Its really a great moive lots of great introverted and extroverted quotes in it to really make you look at the world wrapped up in a niceley packaged kill flick. Shame it never got the credit it deserved I think people just didn't understand it though.


----------

