# Not Talking



## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

My wife and I haven't said 10 words to each other since yesterday afternoon. I'm turning around a Mr. Nice Guy/white knight personality and just don't give a fig if I talk to her for a week.

Backstory: 

She wanted me to help with something and to help, I needed to move my old classic car. Car keys had gone missing and I was looking for them in the usual places. She comes down from our home multi-purpose room/office and says: "did you look in the night stand, did you look in the drawer in the buffet, did you look....." and at that point, I said, "You know, it's just not helpful for you to be doing that. I've looked in all those places." And, with that, she went full bat **** crazy and lit into me..."It's not my fault you've lost your keys, you're always losing stuff. Just forget it..." and on an on accompanied with a door slam.

She has a terrible temper, and in the past, I would have apologized and tried to make up. But, this time, it was so over the top that I told her; "You are out of control and you are just like your mother with your temper and short fuse. I didn't do anything to provoke that, and I resent the hell out of it and your attitude." 

So, I went out in back and walked around and she went to her sitting room and shut the door. I found the keys when I came back to the house, moved the car and took care of the project. She stayed in the house and sulked. 

She fixed dinner. I dispensed the usual pleasantries and we watched TV for a bit. At 8 she went to bed, curled up with her iPad and engaged in a fierce game of Spider Solitare--her usual escape from reality. I stayed down stairs and watched TV for a bit, took a swim and then went upstairs. Got ready for bed, and she kept playing on the iPad. So, I said "good night," rolled over and went to sleep. 

In the morning, she was up and out of bed before I was awake. I dressed for the gym, did my usual computer check in and left...not one word. Left for the gym, and not a word. Got home, not a word. Showered and changed. Worked around the house and when she asked if I wanted lunch, I said no. Left and went to an Al Anon meeting. Came home and she was napping. So now I'm here.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Are you always losing stuff?


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Do you think the comparison with "You are out of control and you are just like your mother with your temper and short fuse" comment helped or made things worse?

While it may or may not be true, it surely was neither kind nor necessary.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Silent treatment is deadly on relationships. I wouldn't participate in it. But I wouldn't let her go ballistic on me, either. Just remaining calm and indifferent is good enough. Silent treatment sucks both ways.
Don't engage in that. 
JMO


----------



## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Let me guess. The keys were in the nightstand or the buffet drawer. 

But seriously, if my wife asks me if I checked the such-and-such, I just quietly say "Yeah, thanks. I did." I agree that it's frustrating to be told about all the obvious places where your keys might be, especially after you've thought about all of them and even checked them. But sometimes you just need to clam up, smile, and keep the peace. It's never good to tell someone that they're unhelpful when they're trying to be helpful. Yeah, they suck at being helpful, but they don't need to know that. 

It's kind of like when your kid "helps" you cook something. They don't contribute anything--in fact they create more work for you. But you try to make them feel valued nonetheless. It's one of those situations where a lie is justifiable. And mandatory.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

So do you think she'll ever respond to your statement that you didn't deserve her crazy fit and door slam?

Are you prepared to wait for her to approach you about the current tension?


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

23cm said:


> "You are out of control





23cm said:


> Left and went to an Al Anon meeting.


Are these two related?


----------



## msrv23 (Jul 14, 2017)

When you said things, are you sure your tone of voice didn’t show frustration? She might have sensed it and reacted. Not that it was an excuse for the scale of reaction of course.
What you said after was not really good at all, it felt like a reaction from being fed up rather than because of that event?

In any ways either one of you needs to start talking. But with genuine care fro the other and be willing to understand the other’s perspectivd.


----------



## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Does she hate her mother? Do you hate her mother and always make that clear?

Losing car keys is like a negative .001 on the reciter scale, how some thing so trivial can trigger so much drama is an indicator there is a huge amount of resentment between you two. You are not innocent here 23CM, you gave back what you got with the mother comment.

The silent treatment is a terrible way to deal with conflict. Go to your wife right this second and say "hey, we need to get past this, why did we get so mad over something so minor?" "What's going on with us that we would rather insult each other than help each other?"

One last suggestion…..dedicate a spot to keep all your keys, a key ring board or a bowl. If you are the type who "always losses stuff" for your own good recognize that and correct it. Why waste precious minutes of your life looking for mis placed items?


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You think that you're teaching her a lesson with your silence. You think that by engaging her with a mirror of her own behavior, that she'll suddenly "get it" and stop.

What you're actually doing is showing her that she can absolutely affect your mood with her behavior and that you will bring yourself down to her level of moodiness.

I think it would have been better if you'd brushed off her reaction more and acted normal and happy, like you have no time for her games or moods. You need to rise above.

In other words, send the message with your actions: "you have no power over me and my happiness."

Also, was she really being THAT unhelpful? Are you sure it was on purpose?
I do the same thing when my husband loses things, because I have a better memory than him. I ask if he's looked in places he likely wouldn't think to check. Not to P him off, but to be helpful so he can find them faster. If he reacted to my questions the way you did to your wife, I'd probably have been offended, too. Maybe not flipped out, but it certainly wouldn't encourage me to help him when he actually needed and asked for my help (read: resentment building).

JMO.


----------



## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

What kind of car ?


----------



## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

JMO, but to me you are not taking any responsibility for your role in this. Nearly every person when faced with someone who has lost something will begin to prompt them about where they might look. Yes, I get that you were frustrated and so should your wife, so her flipping her lid was an overreaction under normal circumstances. However, given that you are going to an Al Anon meeting, perhaps this has something to do with her being sensitive to your aggressive response to her queries? 

So, she uses her ipad to escape....and the tv, the gym, swimming are what exactly for you??

Your are holding a grudge and giving her the cold shoulder rather than addressing your outburst, her temper and how to move forward, while at the same time you say she is sulking and avoiding reality. ONE of you has to break the ice, or this will make the crack deeper.

Since I can't say this to your wife (and if I could, I would): You have to decide what is more important - your ego or your marriage. Swallow hard, get a bottle of wine and tell your wife you would like to talk about what happened. Talk. Not fight. Listen to what she says. You may not agree, and that's all right, but you need to listen.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

You have said in previous threads that you don’t believe in counseling,you said that during your first marriage you visited seven different counselors but you claim they are charlatans.You also went to a psychiatrist and after spending a thousand bucks his only advice was to join Al Anon.
You were very unlucky in your choice of professional advisors......

Is your wife still drinking? If she is sober at the moment then you giving her the silent treatment is not helping.
In your biography you say you are a loving partner and also claim your hobby is military leadership.Maybe putting a little of both into practice would help.


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Can I say something from a wife's perspective? I think where things began to break down was when you told her she was not being helpful by suggesting places for you to look. I understand that that probably added to your frustration but and even though in the moment you would not have thought of this you could have just answered as someone suggested above yeah babe I looked in those places. Thank you though.

I can tell when my responses or conversation is frustrating my husband but not because he lashes out it's just I've learned to read certain phrases and signs he gives that he is frustrated. For example in this case he would have said "yeah babe I've looked there" and there would have been a significant pause and he would have added "but thank you though". Number one I have learned that its "Babe" when he is frustrated and "Baby", "Boo" (I know I know!), or my name when he's not. I bet he doesn't even realize it. But anyway that tells me he is not appreciating my responses but he does not want to act unkindly so he added thank you after a few seconds pause. 

Now your wife may not react this way if she has other issues but I'm saying all this to say you can be frustrated and not lash out. Especially when you think she is trying to be helpful even if she isn't. At this point in it would be great if you could go to her and acknowledge that you reacted badly and started a chain reaction of negativity on both your parts, and apologize for it. She may not respond positively but at least you would have been owning what you did and trying to fix it. If she goes into a further rage then you could just ignore it. Just my two cents with no experience of dealing with anyone with any type of addiction problems or dealing with anyone who lashes out with no reason. 

But I think if the focus is going to be on you and what you can do maybe this might be helpful? I think it would show true strength without being a doormat.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

23cm said:


> Backstory:
> 
> She wanted me to help with something and to help, I needed to move my old classic car. Car keys had gone missing and I was looking for them in the usual places. She comes down from our home multi-purpose room/office and says: "did you look in the night stand, did you look in the drawer in the buffet, did you look....." and at that point, I said, "You know, it's just not helpful for you to be doing that. I've looked in all those places." And, with that, she went full bat **** crazy and lit into me..."It's not my fault you've lost your keys, you're always losing stuff. Just forget it..." and on an on accompanied with a door slam.


Well, are you losing things all the time? Perhaps it would have been better to answer, "Yes I have but no luck." Sometimes it is in how we say things and not what is actually said. However, I don't know what the reflection in our voice as with your answer and guessing your tone drew the upset?


----------



## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

Thank you for the independent advice. I appreciate it. We've successfully lifted the rug and the mess has been shoved under it. Any more though and we'll have to get a bigger rug. 

A few answers: 

No, I don't lose stuff all the time. 

Yes, she's still drinking. Usually about two+ bottles a day. I'd spent the day doing the monthly finance/budget and for the first three months of the year, she's spent more than $2400 on booze. We married 8 years ago after being independent for about 10 years and still have yours, mine and ours accounts. So she's spending from "her" account. She used to be gone for two weeks of each month and in an environment where she couldn't drink. Since she retired last Spring, it's the same...usually starts at 10 am. Any attempt to limit or conversation about her alcohol intake results in "I'll show you..." petulant increased drinking.

This happened about about 11 am so she wasn't drunk yet. She hates it when I go to Al Anon. 

She hated her mother who was mentally and physically abusive, but they ARE cut from the same cloth--control any situation by an outsized reaction and outbursts...her mother had successfully cowed her father for years. Disagreements were met by the old man hiding in his workshop in the basement. In my mind, pointing out that her behavior was like her mother's was intended to show her just how ugly she was acting. But, yes it is a trigger. However, I've decided no more putting up with that crap because it is getting steadily worse. 

Shrinks: I'll admit that I'm probably not the easiest client. I'm an ABD for a Ph.D. in the behavior of individuals in complex organizations--thus a slew of psych classes. So, unless the shrink is an MD, or Ph.D. I'm going to know more. I'm self aware so there aren't going to be any revelations. Behavioral therapy likely would be best, but I haven't found anyone. So far just a series of Dr. Melifs ("Sopranos") so my experiences in the past have not been good or useful. She won't go to one although our primary care doc suggested that she go.

BMW M6


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I don't see what everyone is so upset about. He had more conversation with his wife than I have this week. I mean there is no frost here, but with the volume of reading she has been doing for the last 2 weeks, there just isn't any spare time for conversation. If you are doing NMMNG and 180, you don't go begging for reconciliation. I told my Wife she could stay home and read this weekend. I haven't told her I bought cinema tickets. I'm doing what I want to do when I want to do it. I'm not kissing the butt of the woman who doesn't have time for hello.


----------



## Redbottoms (Apr 6, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> I don't see what everyone is so upset about. He had more conversation with his wife than I have this week. I mean there is no frost here, but with the volume of reading she has been doing for the last 2 weeks, there just isn't any spare time for conversation. If you are doing NMMNG and 180, you don't go begging for reconciliation. I told my Wife she could stay home and read this weekend. I haven't told her I bought cinema tickets. I'm doing what I want to do when I want to do it. I'm not kissing the butt of the woman who doesn't have time for hello.



I agree with this


----------



## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I don't see what everyone is so upset about. He had more conversation with his wife than I have this week. I mean there is no frost here, but with the volume of reading she has been doing for the last 2 weeks, there just isn't any spare time for conversation. If you are doing NMMNG and 180, you don't go begging for reconciliation. I told my Wife she could stay home and read this weekend. I haven't told her I bought cinema tickets. I'm doing what I want to do when I want to do it. I'm not kissing the butt of the woman who doesn't have time for hello.


And, I agree too. I'm at that point where I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired...and rapidly approaching "detaching with love" as we say in Al Anon. She has gotten progressively impossible, and yet I hang on to the way she used to be; positive, intelligent, a "woman of infinite variety." Now, she's on a hair trigger for BSC, negative generally/highly opinionated and soused after 5 p.m. 

I'm too old to be putting up with this nonsense.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Why are you still there?


----------



## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Keep reading, next book is "hold on to your nuts"

Dont go 100% just because you read the material.. its going to take months before you notice changes and these mini battles will keep happening.. Need to deal with them better each time.

Telling your wife to "STFU your not helping" can be done many ways. You bringing the 'your like your mother' is probably a dagger to her heart as most women would most likely hate that statement... so you brought a gun to a knife fight. Next time, just calmly say "Yes, i looked everywhere, unless you want to actually help me look then stop interrupting me"

I know its typically the easiest route to blow up every conversation with a snide remark.. but if you want to improve the relationship you need to avoid arguments and be clear with your response that the attitude is not needed.


----------



## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

And drinking two bottles a night? 

of what? beer (fine), wine (thats alot), hard liquor (REALLY?)


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Note to all women.

Reiterating the obvious to someone who is already frustrated, is, as the OP has noted, not helpful.

It only amplifies the frustration. 

Stop it.

If a guy wants help, he’ll ask. Otherwise, let him be. If he needs help and chooses not to ask, that’s his problem. Either way, you’re better off letting him be (most guys, most of the time)


----------



## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

Steve2.0 said:


> And drinking two bottles a night?
> 
> of what? beer (fine), wine (thats alot), hard liquor (REALLY?)


Champagne is her drug of choice. 

Last year I stopped drinking all alcohol. Had a health scare and embarked on a healthy regimen, lost 35 pounds--from 210 to 175--work with a trainer two days and work out on my own three days. No, I haven't gotten all judgmental nor do I snipe or snark about her drinking. But, it is getting progressively worse, and unlike the days when she was working and dry for two weeks, she's just constantly marinated now. No, it doesn't help to discuss/argue with a drunk,but when they're either drunk or hung over, not much time for discussion.


----------



## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

23cm said:


> She hates it when I go to Al Anon.


Does it matter that she hates it? After all, your recovery is yours to own; not hers. Do you attend regardless of her opinion?

Alcoholism, as I'm sure you are aware, is a progressive disease. Have you considered cutting your losses and leaving? 

I finally got out when I just couldn't tolerate the insanity any longer. And you are living with insanity.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You know you can't control her. 

You see she's getting worse. 

What's your plan?


----------



## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

23cm said:


> I'm at that point where I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired...and rapidly approaching "detaching with love" as we say in Al Anon.


Part of our detachment oftentimes dictates that it is better to love our alcoholics at a distance.



23cm said:


> She has gotten progressively impossible, and yet I hang on to the way she used to be; positive, intelligent, a "woman of infinite variety."


This is another version of "what if" thinking rather than "what is." I stayed because I knew my husband's potential; what he was like prior to going down the rabbit hole. But that thinking kept me stuck. Staying wasn't going to get him sober. Leaving wasn't going to get him sober. But leaving is what got me sane. My life. My choice. 



23cm said:


> I'm too old to be putting up with this nonsense.


When the pain of staying exceeds the pain of leaving, you'll leave. Hopefully. I'm sure you have your reasons for staying, but bear in mind that alcoholism is an equal-opportunity destroyer. The sicker she gets, the more it will impact you, detachment or not. That's why I often advocate that the sober spouse detach at a safe distance. JMO.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

23cm said:


> _ Yes, she's still drinking. Usually about two+ bottles a day._ I'd spent the day doing the monthly finance/budget and for the first three months of the year, she's spent more than $2400 on booze. We married 8 years ago after being independent for about 10 years and still have yours, mine and ours accounts. So she's spending from "her" account. She used to be gone for two weeks of each month and in an environment where she couldn't drink. Since she retired last Spring, it's the same...usually starts at 10 am. Any attempt to limit or conversation about her alcohol intake results in "I'll show you..." petulant increased drinking.
> 
> This happened about about 11 am so she wasn't drunk yet. *She hates it when I go to Al Anon*.


Oh my, that's some serious drinking! It will only continue to get worse I'm sorry to say 

Too bad if she hates you going to Al Anon, you need to do this for yourself. You are in charge of you, not her.

I really feel for you OP, no one deserves to live like this


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

23cm said:


> My wife and I haven't said 10 words to each other since yesterday afternoon. I'm turning around a Mr. Nice Guy/white knight personality and just don't give a fig if I talk to her for a week.
> 
> Backstory:
> 
> ...


*So exactly where did you end up finding the keys?

Seriously though, you missed a great opportunity to try to mutually make up with her and probably a nice randy round of make-up sex!

In blame placing, never compare a spouse to a close family member who has a reputation for bad behavior; because in doing so, you are potentially making two enemies!

Under normal circumstances and as man of the house, you are the one who should be the last to anger, and the very first to apologize!

But if the mutual silence is unbearable, please seek out the services of a good marriage counselor!*


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

She's a functioning alcoholic. That doesn't change it'll get worse with time.

Find a way to help her


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

23cm said:


> Champagne is her drug of choice.
> 
> Last year I stopped drinking all alcohol. Had a health scare and embarked on a healthy regimen, lost 35 pounds--from 210 to 175--work with a trainer two days and work out on my own three days. No, I haven't gotten all judgmental nor do I snipe or snark about her drinking. But, it is getting progressively worse, and unlike the days when she was working and dry for two weeks, she's just constantly marinated now. No, it doesn't help to discuss/argue with a drunk,but when they're either drunk or hung over, not much time for discussion.


Two bottles of Champagne a night?

That's very, very bad. But then, you already know that, right?

But she doesn't have a problem, it's all on you, you should just let her be and if you carry it on just a little bit further she gets all


----------



## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

"But she doesn't have a problem, it's all on you, you should just let her be and if you carry it on just a little bit further she gets all" (then image)

MattMatt, you're usually quite clear, but I'm missing something here. Do you mean she progressively combusts? 

The larger issue is that if I didn't care, it would be easy...a simple TTMF would do.


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

I too would get aggravated by those questions of, did you look _______? To me that's just as bad as asking, "You lost your keys? Where'd you leave them last?" If I knew, they wouldn't be lost now, would they?

You're not an idiot. I think she was agitated that you weren't moving the car fast enough.


----------



## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

She was agitated because she was either hung over or starting to catch her daily buzz! 

I get the dynamic between you two...my husband drinks pretty much on a daily basis...his poison of choice is vodka. He is a functioning alcoholic...just barely though. 

I resent my husband for not wanting to make himself better and for not wanting to make our marriage better. From your post I can read about you. Because I refuse to talk to my husband about anything meaningful and constructive. You can't reason with someone who is always under the influence of alcohol. Their way of thinking is all discombobulated (is that even a word?!). And when under the influence they are in their happy place while you are not (in the same happy place as they are). And while your wife is either hung over or catching her buzz for the day she is going to be prone to snide remarks, whether they come from her towards you, or whether you make them to her. She is in denial and can't understand why you would make such nasty remarks/comments. 

She needs help, but until she is ready to get that help you can only control your feelings and how you react. And then you have to decide whether you want to continue to live that dynamic for the rest of your life or move on.


----------



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

23cm, personally i think that your relationship can best be summarized as Detente, and the weapon of choice on either sides is PA (Passive aggressive) behavior, these flairs up between the two of you build up until nether are happy with one another then some how deescalate until the next time, all the while she never hits rock bottom to seek help and you never fully give up on the marriage...i suspect it is been like this for some time and will continue to be like this until something explosive happens. For example you going to Al-non is your way of rubbing in her face that she is an alcoholic, while in truth i understand why you need to go there, the way you do it, and the tactic you use is in a PA behavior towards her and she in turns will do or say something in passing about you. The only question i have for you is "when is enough, enough?"


----------



## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

Lostinthought61 said:


> 23cm, personally i think that your relationship can best be summarized as Detente, and the weapon of choice on either sides is PA (Passive aggressive) behavior, these flairs up between the two of you build up until nether are happy with one another then some how deescalate until the next time, all the while she never hits rock bottom to seek help and you never fully give up on the marriage...i suspect it is been like this for some time and will continue to be like this until something explosive happens. For example you going to Al-non is your way of rubbing in her face that she is an alcoholic, while in truth i understand why you need to go there, the way you do it, and the tactic you use is in a PA behavior towards her and she in turns will do or say something in passing about you. The only question i have for you is "when is enough, enough?"


Have you been hiding in our house? I'd have to say you're damned spot on in your assessment. 

What keeps us together? Before her retirement, the crazy wasn't constant. Now, it's 3 gallons of crazy in a 2 gallon pail. And, there's no getting away from it, we are, as you say, existing in detente/limbo. 

I got started going to Al Anon while she was working--two weeks away every month. (She'd been a specialist in a highly technical field and worked in a secure remote location in company housing.) Also, started visiting the Sober Recovery board. Helped some, but at the same time showed me that whatever my problems, others had problems sooooooooo much worse and so why the hell was I whining. But, it was a place to go and even though I'm not much of a talker about personal things, there was some opportunity for interaction. My favorite meeting had a change of membership over about two years and I stopped going. Hadn't been for quite some time.

So, what keeps us together? I ask myself that and it comes up in this order: 1. Commitment, 2. Practicality, 3. Inertia. 

I'll elaborate in a little bit later, but for now: 

Do want to say that I appreciate the comments and insights provided by posters. It does help navigate when there are some folks who've been done the path before and they can point out the way they've gone.


----------



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

23,
Im sorry you are here.

I had an uncle by marriage that was a belligerent and confrontational drunk.

Unfortunately, I was forced to spend quite a bit of time around him. I despise a belligerent drunk with a passion.. I hope you find the momentum to get out of your predicament.


----------

