# So ... what happened?



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Many of the posts here paint circumstances that unfortunately, many of us can relate to. We get some insight into the lives and issues of others - but we seldom get outcomes.

So, here is an outcome.

I came here in spring 08. Married over 8 years, two beautiful children. I won't go into all of the details surrounding the deterioration of the relationship with my wife. Suffice to say, we were parenting partners (very good ones) and little else. Here is how I described my marriage to friends:
_"One of us was willing to do anything and everything it takes to make the marriage work. One of us was willing to let the other do everything and anything it takes to make the marriage work, as long as nothing was expected of her."_

Make of that what you will. We did counseling in 03 for a year. We returned to the same counselor in 08 - with the exact same issues. Sex. Equity of responsibility in the marriage. Emotional support. Communication.

I was done supporting the marriage. I was bitter, angry, and took the position of giving what I got in terms of consideration and emotional support. I hoped that she would recognize the seriousness of our circumstances and 'step up' to try to resolve our issues. She chose instead to pull further away - and seek solace with someone that made her feel good about herself. *Hint* That person wasn't her husband ... 

We had sufficient problems in our marriage to warrant divorce, _before_ an affair got thrown into the mix. 

So, we are now focussed upon what our relationship will become, not what it was.

We are divorcing ... amicably, using a mediator. And we are both in other relationships. I am happy. Very happy. My new relationship has been eye-opening in terms of what I had been willing to sacrifice in meeting my own needs, in order to bust my ass to preserve a broken marriage. So yes, we are divorcing, I would never frame that as a positive thing. However, it can often be the best outcome for everyone involved, children included. I would rather my kids grow up seeing two happy, well-adjusted parents in healthy relationships, than see two, bitter, spiteful people determined to stay together for their benefit. 

So ... wish me luck, and I will do the same for all of you.


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## oties101 (Dec 24, 2008)

Deejo said:


> I would rather my kids grow up seeing two happy, well-adjusted parents in healthy relationships, than see two, bitter, spiteful people determined to stay together for their benefit.


I agree whole-heartedly with that statement. I wish more people would see things in that way. I wish you the BEST of luck with your new relationship and new life. :smthumbup:


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## Junebug (Dec 7, 2008)

Thanks for posting deejo- sometimes some of us need to see the positive outcome. I wish happiness for you always in your new relationship. We sure can learn from the previous ones what mistakes we made, and what we can do different to make it work. I fully agree on the issue with the children- I keep saying it in my mind, and now I need to get it through my heart. Thank you!!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Junebug said:


> Thanks for posting deejo- sometimes some of us need to see the positive outcome. I wish happiness for you always in your new relationship. We sure can learn from the previous ones what mistakes we made, and what we can do different to make it work. I fully agree on the issue with the children- I keep saying it in my mind, and now I need to get it through my heart. Thank you!!


I appreciate the input. As for positive outcomes, we really don't have one yet. I have no delusions that there is plenty of pain, bitterness and hurt feelings that each of us will experience as we dissolve the marriage. Despite our efforts to not be hostile, there is certainly tension, anger and disappointment. Keep in mind, 'amicable' divorce in our case simply means that neither of us wishes to harm the other - any more than has already occured. We both want a 'positive outcome' for one another, and our children. I'll let you know when we get there.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

oties101 said:


> I agree whole-heartedly with that statement. I wish more people would see things in that way. I wish you the BEST of luck with your new relationship and new life. :smthumbup:


My in-laws are the best example I can think of - and quite frankly, I don't doubt for a moment that what my wife saw role-modeled as a child and young adult by her parents (bitter, dmaged, loveless) directly contributed to many of our issues.


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## AZMOMOFTWO (Jun 30, 2008)

Deejo,
Sometimes two people just shouldn't be together. You and your wife sound like two people who shouldn't be together anymore. That is supported by the fact that you were able to find a lot of happiness in another relationship. It sounds like you did everything you could thus giving you closure, allowing you to move on to a new relationship. I agree, this is sometimes the best option. Thank you for telling us the outcome and I wish you all the best in your new relationship.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

I wonder how long the 'new' relationship will last?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

snix11 said:


> I wonder how long the 'new' relationship will last?


That's a fair question. Interestingly, or bizarrely, depending upon your perspective; it isn't new. I have known her longer than I have my wife. There is no honeymoon phase. There are no skeletons lurking in our respective closets. We are aware of what we have signed up for. The relationship is open, honest, balanced and loving. Will it remain that way always? Of course it will. Isn't that what everyone wants to believe? That's why people keep signing up for another shot at love in spite of all the crap that invariably touches every relationship. 

I can keep you posted on that end of things as well.


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## martino (May 12, 2008)

Well I hope your kids are fairing as well as you are.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

martino said:


> Well I hope your kids are fairing as well as you are.


That, I don't have an answer for. I have them every other weekend, and I go to the house twice a week to read stories and put them to bed. We don't use the kids as bargaining chips, we do not speak ill of one another to the kids. We still continue to do activities as a family. We consistently stress the word 'family'. The primary difference is that daddy lives some place else. My career already had me away from home often enough that my _not_ being there wasn't a complete shock. The issues between my wife and I were just that, between us. When it came to family time and parenting we had little to no difficulties. Regardless, I would never minimize the impact this has had, and will have on my children.


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## martino (May 12, 2008)

Deejo,

Sorry to be so blunt, you just seem to have it so together and figured out. I hope you and your wife have tried all you can because when the kids get older they will realize that you have your own life seperate from mom's and mom has her own life seperate from dad's. They will then feel lost between your world and her's, like they don't quite fit in either. These aren't my opinions, any divorce/family book will say that. But I understand sometimes it has to be done.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

martino said:


> Deejo,
> 
> Sorry to be so blunt, you just seem to have it so together and figured out. I hope you and your wife have tried all you can because when the kids get older they will realize that you have your own life seperate from mom's and mom has her own life seperate from dad's. They will then feel lost between your world and her's, like they don't quite fit in either. These aren't my opinions, any divorce/family book will say that. But I understand sometimes it has to be done.


Blunt works fine for me. I don't easily take offense. If it's any consolation, I'm a friggin mess.
I don't _want_ to be divorced. I absolutely don't _want_ to harm either my wife, or my children. I thought very long and hard about simply 'sucking it up'. Make the best of bad circumstances. Accept that my wife will not, or cannot, assume a balance of responsibilities in our marriage, or make an occasional investment in my emotional well-being. 

From my perspective, the inbalance in our relationship has only steadily grown over the years - despite proactive efforts on my part. This illustrates the fundamental issue - marriage is not meant to succeed or fail based upon the efforts of 'one' of the parties. It can't.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Had my 3 and 6 year old this weekend. We attended church as a family, and had dinner as a family on Sunday. It was all very positive. My wife and I acknowledged how much we enjoy and cherish family time. She apologized for being ignorant of the emotional well-being of our marriage over the course of years. She stated that she wants a partner to share her life with, and she wants a sex life - and recognizes it's importance. Her words were heartfelt, and I appreciated hearing them. We also recognized however, that those things likely will not be between she and I. I told her the outcome may have been different if she had this realization a year ago. 

Talked about our current relationships - and agreed that we likely did a disservice to ourselves, and to our partners, by becoming involved before making a clean break in our marriage.

We attended mediation 2 weeks ago - and after two hours, we decided to 'take no action' for the next three months. 
We will likely attend counseling together in the intervening time, for what our therapist calls pre-divorce counseling. There are difficult issues we are going to have to be able to discuss, and we need a third-party to facilitate.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

So ... yet another fork in the road.
Here is the Cliff's Notes version: . Intimacy issues over many years. We were struggling financially. I asked my wife to step up. She chose to put her head in the sand. I got a new job in July 08 pulling us off the precipice of financial ruin. She assumes my new job means she can once again be blissfully ignorant. I got fed up and started challenging her instead of enabling her. She responded by starting an emotional affair with someone that would continue to be her cheerleader. We separate. Emotional affair becomes a physical relationship. I start a new relationship.
Throughout all of this, I am paying for my apartment, our house, two cars, all of the bills. There has been absolutely no change in her financial circumstances, even in light of the fact that we are slowly dissolving our marriage.

I just got laid off. My monthly unemployment benefit is less than two-thirds of what I was giving my wife. She didn't utter a word for over a minute after I told her.

I offered two suggestions:

1. She and the kids move into the apartment with me. We fully commit to trying to salvage the marriage instead of breaking it.

2. She and the kids move into the apartment. I move out. The boyfriend puts some skin in the game. He pays for the apartment, bills, her car. I give her absolutely nothing more than what I am legally obligated to based upon income.

Keeping the house is not an option in either case. 

I informed my girlfriend of the circumstances and possible outcomes. Recognizing how absolutely out of whack things have become, we respectfully part ways.

The wife is with the boyfriend this evening. She and I have an emergency session with our marriage counselor tomorrow morning. She apparently called the therapist after I gave her the news. 

I am willing to wipe the slate clean and start over in terms of healing our marriage, and preserving the long-term stability of our children. Needless to say, she didn't jump on board with a similar declaration.

I still don't think my spouse has her head around what is going to happen. She originally informed me that TOM would help her financially to keep the house. To which I replied, "Oh, you and he want to buy the house?" Deer in the headlights look again. She believed he would just take over the monthly payments. I simply shook my head and reiterated that we cannot keep the house. 
I pointed out to my wife that there have been a number of steps along this downward trend where either she, I, or both of us have made very bad decisions. I informed her that we are standing on the cusp of another one of those moments, and a bad decision here will be utterly unrecoverable.

I'd be lying to tell you that I'm hopeful - but there is a plan. This is really shaping up in true soap-operatic fashion. Stay tuned.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

You are still being a twerp. 

Yes, she's clueless at the moment. But what hope are you giving here that YOU will change? that YOU can and will become the cheerleader she needs? 

Just let her know you WANT to be her cheerleader and WILL cheer her when she does good things! If she really needs that so much, FIND something GREAT to say about her every day. Give her 10+ REAL honest compliments. See what happens!

Sometimes we can't change till the person we care most about believes in us for the good things we are.


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## ConfusedinColumbus (Feb 20, 2009)

Truly sorry to hear of these developments. I wish I had some sage advice to give, as you have so often given. All I can say is hang in there my brother...


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

One moment you say you don't want it to be over, then you make it absolutely clear you will do nothing to fix things. 

Don't kid yourself about who's ending this relationship. And who started the war between you two. 

I don't care if you leave her. But don't you dare blame it all on her. I can't believe you would do this to your kids. For shame.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

snix11 said:


> "I wonder how long the 'new' relationship will last? "
> 
> 
> "You are still being a twerp.
> ...


Project much?

Given both of your posts in this thread, it's pretty apparent that you are assuming that _I_ was the source of the intimacy, communication and emotional support issues.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

snix11 said:


> One moment you say you don't want it to be over, then you make it absolutely clear you will do nothing to fix things.
> 
> Don't kid yourself about who's ending this relationship. And who started the war between you two.
> 
> I don't care if you leave her. But don't you dare blame it all on her. I can't believe you would do this to your kids. For shame.


Bash away if you like - last response.

Are you actually reading my posts?

I didn't create these circumstances to be 'mean'. She can't afford the house. I can't afford the house. If we were living together, happy as larks, we couldn't keep the house. 

It's about making a choice. If she and the boyfriend want to buy the house, I don't see how that makes me a bastard. I _offered_ the apartment, under conditions that have us trying to reconcile, or her not wanting me there. She has made it pretty apparent that she isn't interested in reconciling. I was supporting two households, now I can't. And I should be ashamed ...


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

If you were both happy as larks, she wouldn't have had to go to someone else. Neither would you. 

You are at least half the cause of her wanting someone else. Think about that. If you were truely Mr. Perfect, why would she need someone else? 

I'm not talking about the practicality of money, apartments, houses or living .I'm talking about YOUR very real part in the demise of your marriage. It's not too late. And the change in her can come from just you. But you would have to get rid of what's her face the new girl.


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## marina72 (Dec 29, 2008)

Deejo, I'm sorry to hear of your troubles.

Sounds like you've tried a lot to fix this problem you're having with your wife. And don't ever feel that because she cheated first, that you somehow did something to deserve it, or drove her to cheat.

Fact is, people that cheat, do so because they make a decision to.

It's something that many try to rationalize, and justify. They do this because they're guilty, and can't face it. 

I know that you said she was not happy and then cheated, and then you eventually found someone else too.

And it sounds as though you've done everything you can to try to make the split amicable, and you most certainly should not have to keep supporting her, totally, especially when she's got a new boyfriend.

As long as you're providing for your kids, that's all you have to do.

She doesn't seem to get the financial apsect of it, and with you being laid off, which is horrible, she'll have to realize she will have to pitch in just as much, if not more, till you get another job. You most certainly shouldn't have to support two households.

I don't see why you should pay for your wife to live in your house, that you two had together, with her new boyfriend. You sound like you've been fairly paitent with her inane sense of reality

I wish you luck with everything. Stay strong.... And remember that when God closes one door, he opens another one.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

:iagree:

I agree With Marina on this one, you did everything you could, and I were you I would not be helping them out, supporting my chidren, sure, I would want custody of them. But there is no way I would let her boyfriend move in and allow her to live there with him and you, PLUS the children, NO WAY JOSE! 

No way you should be paying for the house Plus the apartment.

tell them they make a wonderrful couple, they should get married, so you don't have to pay her alimony, only child support.

I feel for you man, you tried and it failed, but you can find someone better.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I threw out the option of TOM buying the house to provide some sense of stability for the kids. I was continuing to pay for the house while separated for the same reason. Our plan per mediation was to make a decision about the house in June. That time frame got preempted.

She doesn't want to involve him financially. Unsure if that is because doing so completely changes the nature of their relationship, or if she wants to work together. What I did make clear is that regardless of the decision, everything changes either way.

We actually had a pretty good talk last night. Not yet clear what path we are taking, but the dialogue was open and honest.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

At least you two are starting to talk. I hope that you continue to do so. She deserves at least that much. I hope you find the reason your relationship failed and fix at least that part IN YOURSELF so that you don't have to go thru this again. Good luck.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

ConfusedinColumbus said:


> Truly sorry to hear of these developments. I was I had some sage advice to give, as you have so often given. All I can say is hang in there my brother...


Much appreciated, CC. I hope your circumstances have stabilized and are slowly on the uptick. 
I have had a constant headache and felt like my guts are twisted for the last 3 days.

We were in therapy on Saturday, today, and are going again Thursday. It is more physically and mentally draining than working out. However, things are actually moving in a direction I didn't expect.

My parents, who are divorced ... reiterated the idea that sometimes the best place to start rebuilding is when the old structure has completely collapsed. They both said the same thing in very different ways. My mom used the building analogy. My dad made liberal use of f bombs and said get everything else out of the picture and focus on what you want to keep safe, which is the kids.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Layoff reprieve ... for about six weeks.


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## revitalizedhusband (Feb 9, 2009)

Snix, I'm sorry but I don't think you have read all of his posts.

He has some blame, sure, but my goodness this woman doesn't live in reality.

Unemployment benefits are ~60% of your normal pay up to a point, and they are taxable so really after taxes you get about 45-50% of your normal pay.

Now, he said that his unemployment was 2/3 of what he was giving her before so he was giving her nearly his whole check and living on his own.

It sounds like he was basically just paying his rent/utlities and some very minimal spending money for himself and then giving the rest of it to pay for his wife/kids living expenses and spending money.

That sounds like about 75% for her, 25% for him, he can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it sounds like.

Court ordered childsupport, depending on the # of kids and what state they are in, would be about 20% of his pay.

So, he was giving 75% but would only have to give 20% and you are REALLY blaming this on him?

She is living a dream world where her separated husband pays for everything she needs and she gets to have a boyfriend on the side...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I did not lose my job. They actually moved me, which I found surprising. Based upon quarterly earnings anything is still possible, but dodged a bullet for the time being.

On the separation and divorce front, it is a mixed bag.

I am waiting for June, to proceed with mediation and divorce. I agreed to this after our initial meeting with the mediator in early February. My spouse contributed very little at the last meeting. She sat silently and cried. I expect the case will be no different come June. 

Since moving out, we have considered reconciliation on a number of occasions. Our children have been the primary driver. Our six year old is on the autism spectrum. We have both been very focused on meeting his needs, as well as those of his three year old sister. There are moments when fixing things looks simple, but peel back a few layers and it is absolutely apparent that each of us has requirements or expectations that the other will not meet – or if met, would only breed resentment instead of healing.

Our relationship and circumstances are utterly broken. My wife pursued an affair when we were in the tank – prior to my moving out. I was not aware of the timing of events, in early April I discovered a letter written by her boyfriend that was basically a journal that he was keeping and decided to share with her. Well, that made dates, and the course of events *ahem* detailed events very clear. I wasn’t angry reading it. It gave me peace of mind. I had the whole truth, something that many people don’t ever get – and in reading, it was of course clear that he didn’t.

We have a great family dynamic. Paradoxically, this is why I really, really, wished we had just finished the mediation process in February. Agreeing to hold off only muddled the picture. 
In the months between Feb and June, my expectation was that she would be looking to improve her financial picture. That hasn’t happened. 

We did pre-divorce counseling several times. My primary concern was that my spouse was utterly overwhelmed. She had thought about absolutely nothing that would be involved with dividing assets and determining how she will make her way in the world and contribute to the long-term welfare of the kids. So I would bring up what needed to be considered – and in turn she would label me as controlling. I still want to manage things, because I am aware of where her head is at. I recognize that. I don’t want her to fall flat on her face. I’m not out to harm her or the kids, but I do want to take care of *me*. She’s not out to screw me – despite what I know others have advised her to do. After the layoff scare, I cut her support payment by $1000 per month. I am now paying her just about what we calculated at the first mediation session. I’m applying the $1000 towards our joint debt, hoping to eliminate much of it prior to the divorce.

I miss the day to day with my kids. I’m doing fine on my own. The pangs of feeling alone passed after a few months. I’m not desperate. I have settled into a routine. I don’t live in a man-cave with piles of dirty laundry or a sink full of dishes. I don’t feel like the walking wounded. I know what I want. I know what I don’t want. I am still in contact with the woman that I began seeing in December. Just too much drama going on to be able to contribute to and grow a new relationship.
I friggin’ love women. I really do. I want to have sex – a lot of sex, not necessarily with a lot of women … one will suffice. I just want to find and be with someone who is enthusiastic about the idea and not reserved or timid, or carrying serious baggage surrounding sex. I don’t mean for this to sound like a personals ad, it’s more of a ‘mission statement’. Yup, ‘sex’ is my mission statement. 

I want my ex to be happy. I have no problem contributing to her well-being, I just don’t want to be responsible for it. Her relationship is still intact. He loves her. I don’t doubt that. She thinks she loves him. I don’t doubt that’s what she thinks. He is great with my kids, particularly my son. That in itself went a long way in my opinion of him. He isn’t a fan of me. He feels threatened by me. Go figure?


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## revitalizedhusband (Feb 9, 2009)

Deejo said:


> I cut her support payment by $1000 per month. I am now paying her just about what we calculated at the first mediation session. I’m applying the $1000 towards our joint debt, hoping to eliminate much of it prior to the divorce.


So in reality you only cut her support by $500, since at the final divorce she would get half the debt just like half the assets, and you are now paying $500 to your half of the debt, and $500 to her half of the debt.

So you are still giving that $500 to her, just by eliminating some of her debt instead of directly to her.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Deejo, you give me hope. You seem to have handled this in a very mature way. Your children will be fine if you continue to love them and help them negotiate their way through the different worlds you and their mother will inhabit. Probably the tendency is to think the kids don't need support after 1-2 years of divorce, but they need, it no matter what, for years. I'm actually most concerned about my college age son's reaction to the demise of my marriage, although of course I'm also concerned about my 11 and 7 year olds, too. I plan on making sure they all get lots of support and lots of follow up support, too, and that they learn to think of counselors as excellent resources to help us in life, no matter what the situation, so they are never afraid to seek help.

Best of luck.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

Deejo, good luck, i am beginning to feel similar pain.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Thanks for the well-wishes all.

Revitalized - I've read all of the tea leaves on this thing. She is not going to be able to keep the house. She doesn't know that. I don't feel compelled to jam it down her throat. Wouldn't do any good anyway.
Hell, I don't even think she's going to be able to pay for her own car and afford rent.
I know how hard and how far she is going to fall. I can't help feeling bad that she doesn't. I'm not trying to prevent it, but I don't feel compelled to pile onto what I already know is going to be difficult.

Another piece I want to make clear, only because I've noticed a trend in a few posts, is that the boyfriend doesn't live in the house. I understand that I may have introduced that belief when I referred to selling the house to he and my ex-wife. He doesn't stay at the house. Not that I would much care at this point, but I would know it. I don't care what she does when the kids are with me.

I have been trying to lay this thing out, warts and all for others to relate to, and maybe take something away from - or not. I have seen my marriage through the eyes of others here on this forum, over and over again. So, in chronicling the road to divorce, maybe someone will see something they recognize, and emulate my example, or avoid it like the plague. I bought a book a while ago called "The Healthy Divorce". It outlined that the common stereotype of a divorce is overwhelmingly hostile with a 'screw them before they screw you attitude.'
I already saw one of those when my parents divorced. Didn't like it.
It was as ugly as ugly could be. It was traumatic. It was filled with negativity and deceit. It left an impression. A really bad one.

I don't hate the mother of my children. But I don't want to live with her anymore. We lost each other on the road of building a life together. Not what I wanted, not what she wanted. I'm pretty sure it's not what anyone ever wants, but it happens all of the time sadly. The kids are our rallying point, not our combat line. Come June, this whole thing could go absolutely south, but that would be one more road I hope we don't have to go down, for our benefit and for the benefit of our children.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Over the last few weeks, I have been purposely trying to refer to my wife as my “ex”, when posting on the site. It has been a way for me of making a distinction about where I thought I was going. Since I moved out in October of 08, we have ridden the ‘rollercoaster’ of dissolving the marriage. We attended mediation in early 09, and basically, she was incapable of participating. The mediator recommended that we wait a number of months and revisit – given that there was no open hostility on both sides.

I ended the relationship I was in. She continued hers.

We have consistently continued to co-parent our two children. We have a six year old son, who has a mild form of autism, and a three year old daughter.

Being away from them, not involved in their day-to-day care-taking, and interaction has been very difficult for me.

I can only imagine that being the sole care-giver from awakening, until bed-time, most days of the week has been very difficult for my wife.

My daughter has become increasingly anxious when I am at the house. She wants to stay with me, out of a fear that I will leave without her knowing it. She has also been having night terrors. When the kids are with me, she sleeps in my bed. If I try to sleep on the couch she wakes up crying. If I crawl in with her, she plasters herself to me – and sleeps through the night. Both my wife and I recognize that the expectations that we have of our beautiful little girl exceed those that are placed upon most 3 yr olds – as a result of the lop-sided focus we must give our son. 

I sat with my wife the other night as we discussed this. We went through a list of the activities that we performed to keep our son engaged and engrossed through his toddler years. We both wept as we realized that we did not give those activities the same emphasis with our daughter. She was easy to overlook, because she is so smart, and so well-behaved. In an effort to not fail our son, we felt like we were failing our daughter.

The best example I can give, is that I took the both of them to a museum a few weeks ago. My son had a melt-down. The painful part of my son’s condition is that he loses emotional control – and he is aware that he doesn’t have control. It’s agonizing. It’s not about being a brat, or spoiled, it can be as simple as some expectation isn’t met (my son thrives on routine and knowing what is coming) and things go off the rails. The incident plays like a loop in his head and he wants to correct it, or change some element, but he knows he can’t. The moment’s gone. These episodes generally last 40 minutes to an hour – and all we can do, is hold him, and reassure him. I can’t tell him that he just needs to get over it, or behave, or stop crying, or yell at him, or tell him tough luck, or physically pick him up or drag him. When these episodes occur, we just have to get through it. We hug him, tight. We reassure him. We tell him it’s going to be ok, and he’s doing a good job. This is exactly what happened at the museum as I crouched on the floor holding my son for nearly an hour. The entire time, my daughter just sat quietly next to me. Three years old. At one point I became aware that she had said nothing for a very long time, and I couldn’t see her. I panicked. I yelled her name. She popped up, right next to me, and thought I was angry with her. She apologized over and over. Through tears, I told her she hadn’t done anything wrong. She then rubbed her brother’s back and said “It’s ok, my Ben.” I pretty much lost it at that point. Hell, I’m losing it now just remembering.

The point. The point is, that my wife and I are scheduled to see the mediator on June 4th. She has ended her relationship as of four days ago. For the sake of our children, and for the memory of what our love was once like – she wants to make a sincere effort at reconciliation.

There are many things that are broken between us. There are many things that I desperately want. The well-being of my children is chief amongst them.

I am accepting her offer. I am not terribly concerned with conditions, or stipulations. Not right now anyway. I have a healthy sense of self. There have been several half-hearted attempts on her part in the past, where she wanted to present the appearance of change, instead of actually making them. That is not the case this time. That has become clear through her words and deeds recently. I have no delusions about possibilities. But I do know that one of the possibilities is that we get through this thing – and our family becomes stronger as a result.

I have found tremendous comfort in discovering this site, and learning from many of those that share their experiences here. I thought my experience was drawing to a close. It may yet be, but I hope just maybe I’m wrong. 

I humbly request your support.


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## ConfusedinColumbus (Feb 20, 2009)

Deejo,

You have regularly demonstrated, as best one can on a board such as this, that you have a level head on your shoulders and an ability to view situations (ours and yours) with appropriately unfiltered lenses...for this, myself and others thank you. At the risk of sounding "kumbayha-ish", having such attributes do nothing but aid you in your journey down this path.

Nobody knows your situation/wife better than you. If you can still see hope (with the aforementioned lenses), I can see no nobler a cause for a father/husband, especially in light of what you have been through.

Some may argue that one "can't do it for the kids", while this may/may not be true...it is unarguably true that kids can be a powerful and motivating force for those who's marriage is in turmoil...they can force us to couch grudges and put aside the past in hopes of a brighter and better future.

I truly hope you can work this out and that Team Deejo remains intact emerging stronger and healthier than before.

Best,
CC


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Thanks for the support CC, you guys will continue to get the good and the bad as this plays out.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Well … that was brief.

I think at this point it is fair to say that we have exhausted all options for reconciliation.

There are these moments where everything appears, and feels, exactly as it is supposed to; happy kids, smiling parents, holding hands, kind words. But that’s all it is, is an appearance. There is no substance. It worked that way for a very, very, long time. 

Bought ‘Fireproof’, watched it. Cute movie. Undoubtedly it captures common elements of a failing relationship, and then inspires the watcher with becoming invested in recovering love. But it doesn’t dive deep, at least not nearly deep enough in our case. And it deals with both parties acknowledging the issues, wanting better, and being prepared to do something about it. 

We just can’t work together. Period. It is so very broken. Any suggestion or recommendation that I make for the benefit of the family that requires her taking action – she views as either a direct criticism, or a ‘test’ that she has to pass to meet my approval. She feels that I try to control her. She feels that I try to diminish her. 
She refuses to even consider getting a job as an employee, regardless of the financial hardships we face. I have actually come to realize that this very fact is also due to her issues – because if she is an employee, someone is going to judge and measure her performance. And she is terrified of being judged poorly – in anything, as a provider, mother, a wife, or a lover. From her perspective, I have called all of those things into question. We can’t fix things if we can’t address them, we can’t address things if we can’t talk about them. If we talk about them, she feels attacked and does nothing. If we don’t talk about them, she still does nothing.

There is just not much to work with. She needs to do a tremendous amount of work on her sense of self. And I cannot wait around and just ‘take it’ while she does. Nor does she believe that she can feel good about herself if my presence is a constant reminder of her inadequacy. If I question or challenge anything she says or does – I am demonstrating that I don’t believe in her.

Sex is a whole other kettle of fish. The issues are many and vast. I know what I want for a sex life. ‘Little, to none’ isn’t it.

I had not previously resented the boyfriend. Now I do. She wants him because he represents none of the baggage associated with me. He ‘believes’ in her (They both participate in a multi-level aka pyramid business) He feeds her dreams, and there are no expectations or consequences associated with those dreams, just unconditional support and cheer-leading. “You’re going to make it!” , “You can do it!”, “I believe in you!”. It’s wonderful stuff. Meanwhile, I get to deal with who gets paid, who gets paid late, and who doesn’t get paid. He has no financial obligation to her – but has offered to help her meet her monthly responsibility. So … despite my giving her $29000 a year, which still isn’t sufficient for her to maintain the house and all of it’s expenses (because she refuses to get an 6-8 hour a day job with a predictable income) I’m still an SOB for insisting that she find more sensible living arrangements, and he is the hero for helping out with gas money.
I resent the circumstances because I get to subsidize her happiness while she continues to take no responsible steps in changing it for herself. I believe she has now tweaked to the idea that the more she works, the less she would get from me, so she has even less incentive. 

I just don’t know this person. I’m still looking for a sensible way out. I don’t know if mediation is even a possibility any longer. One could say that I’m passing through an ‘angry phase’.

This is all from my perspective. I accept that hers would probably look very different were she writing down the reasons that our marriage cannot work. I really don’t know what kind of brush she would paint me with other than feeling that I am unsupportive and just want her for sex. At this point, I think I could live with that.



How ‘bout them apples?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

What a thread! You're writing is very descriptive and helpful. It is extremely difficult to divorce with kids, especially when you have a child with difficulties. I understand you wanting to take care of the kids. It seems that she doesn't have a firm grasp in the finance dept or let's say she's not proactive.

Anyway, it would be much easier to reconcile but I suppose what you are facing is the same ole problems everytime you are together. I think it's common to waffle on divorce. 

If you can't afford the house, then tell her it will need to be sold soon. Give her a deadline and help her secure affordable housing. She may be overwhelmed with everything, like you are, but unable to function as well. Just think of helping her secure housing as helping your children secure housing and their mother. Either way, as you said it, it needs to be done. All you can do, is with written and verbal notice, give her deadline. 

Keep working at moving forward. I know this is difficult.


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## LilMamaSlim (May 12, 2009)

Deejo, 

I haven't yet posted in one of your threads (I think) but I hope you are doing well. Keep pushing forward and know that everything happens for a reason. You and your family deserve the best you can give them, but to give them the best you have to be at your best. So I send well wishes to you and yours. Its the best I can do....

LilMama


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Corpuswife - Every time I even attempt to engage her at this point, she shuts down. Can't quite explain it, but her demeanor has taken a far more distinctive detached, and negative turn. 

Reconciling would be a good outcome for the family - but it simply isn't possible at this time. I generally view reconciling, as coming to an agreement. We really can't come to an agreement if either of us feels like doing so is surrendering, or capitulating as opposed to compromising.

LilMamaSlim - I really appreciate the well-wishes. Having read your story, I hope things improve for you as well. In the long run, I think you and your child will be better off without having to put up with this guy.

Things are deteriorating. I have little to no confidence that stbx intends to bring anything to the table with the mediator. She avoids or shuts down any conversation pertaining to proceeding with the divorce - like I'm annoying her.


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## LilMamaSlim (May 12, 2009)

I know about the "shutting down" part. My H refuses to discuss anything with me face to face, and avoids me and the kids like the plague. I am unsure if they do it because they don't want to face the reality of the situation or if it stings them as much as it does us... what I wouldn't do for mind reading! hehe


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## Rhea (May 16, 2009)

Man would I love a mind reader. It seems my hubby is having a hell of a time letting go and he is the one whom wanted this all in the first place! I'm like I don't want this and if you can't let go doesn't that mean we have all the more reason to work it out. Seems fishy to me...he is "dating" someone and I feel if he'd only get rid of her we could move forward but he seems to want to "be" with her but not let me go as in even though he's mean he still can't stop contacting me...it's odd. Don't want to hijack I'll update in my thread later lol. 

Deejo hang in there it f*ing sucks that's all I got at the moment. That and you're not alone. You're in my thoughts keep posting. 

Rhea


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## Rhea (May 16, 2009)

Man would I love a mind reader. It seems my hubby is having a hell of a time letting go and he is the one whom wanted this all in the first place! I'm like I don't want this and if you can't let go doesn't that mean we have all the more reason to work it out. Seems fishy to me...he is "dating" someone and I feel if he'd only get rid of her we could move forward but he seems to want to "be" with her but not let me go as in even though he's mean he still can't stop contacting me...it's odd. Don't want to hijack I'll update in my thread later lol. 

Deejo hang in there it f*ing sucks that's all I got at the moment. That and you're not alone. You're in my thoughts keep posting. 

Rhea


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## toomanytears (Apr 15, 2009)

Deejo, you seem to have a level head on your shoulders and look at your problems realistically. One gets awful tired of being the responsible person in a broken relationship because the Lord above knows I am. All you can do is move on towards a positive life for you and your kids.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Rhea said:


> Seems fishy to me...he is "dating" someone and I feel if he'd only get rid of her we could move forward but he seems to want to "be" with her but not let me go as in even though he's mean he still can't stop contacting me...it's odd.
> 
> Rhea


Without a doubt, "having your cake and eating it too ..." syndrome has definitely been a factor with us.

If I had to sum up her current 'cold' phase, I think it is due to the fact that she dumped the boyfriend in order to give our reconciliation efforts the proper attention, which of course was necessary. But, the reconciliation didn't make it past ten days. We both agreed that it was an impasse. There was just too much crap, and even getting to a place resembling a relationship, particularly sexual, was very far in the future. So, I think she is now pissed at me for having broken up with him - which mind you, isn't the first time. This will be dump number 3 for TOM, as a result of her confusion about which direction she wants to go. What is notable, is this was the first dump that she did on her own. Previously, we would talk and I would state clearly, 'nothing positive can possibly happen between us, while he is in the picture.' So ... when she cut him loose previously, she got to blame me. Trust me, I recognize how insane this all looks. But I think it also explains, in my wife's messed up, perspective - she would live with me as the provider and loving father of our kids, while having her emotional and sexual needs met by TOM, and lets face it, that ain't happenin'.


What I'm struggling with, is why she continues her disinterest at best, or direct avoidance of talking about moving forward with the divorce.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

toomanytears said:


> Deejo, you seem to have a level head on your shoulders and look at your problems realistically. One gets awful tired of being the responsible person in a broken relationship because the Lord above knows I am. All you can do is move on towards a positive life for you and your kids.


Jus cuz I preach'em, doesn't mean I always practice'em 

The outcomes that _Hope_ makes possible, almost always trump the outcomes that being practical represents. I think that is human nature, and I believe it's a good thing. But, when it gets to the point where your 'hopes' consistently fail, and cause you pain and anguish it's time to let those hopes go, focus on the practical, and then come up with some new hopes that payoff.


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## sinatra (Apr 6, 2009)

Sorry Deejo that it's taken this turn. I completely agree with your statement on hope. It's a hard thing to accept that things will not or are not going to work out the way that you would like so see them.

You do have some great insight so stay firm with what you believe is right.


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## Rhea (May 16, 2009)

Deejo said:


> Without a doubt, "having your cake and eating it too ..." syndrome has definitely been a factor with us.


Yeah well it isn't his birthday so screw that! He can have said OW (ironically she's going through the big D as well and still is intimate w/her stbx and they're having issues letting go as well. I'm like oh the tangled webs we weave if the both of you are still "screwing" and leaning on your stbx's and what not then leave each other alone and go back and fix your marriages for the love of ((insert said explicative here)) lol) he'll come to realize how lazy he was one day and how much he ignored even his own signals and then I'll be the one ignoring his texts, calls, messages, etc....(hopefully)

Must be honest here. It's really hard to say no to the one you love  especially when the intamcy and time together and the constant reminders are right there in front of your face. I swear someday some doc will figure that man out. I just wonder how many more women he'll wreck in the mean time. This is his second failed marriage and he's only 28.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

We attended mediation yesterday. It actually went remarkably well. No hostility, no sniping, no tears, although there were certainly some sad moments.
My ex was engaged and participated far more than I expected. We did address the issue of the house, and it appears we have a resolution.
I had done monthly expenses for myself, and an estimate of her monthly income and expenses to address why I didn't think her keeping the house was possible. I showed her the sheet, and was again surprised that she agreed that my figures were correct. She has roughly a $500 deficit per month.

So, the mediator took us through the options and worked towards reducing my ex's monthly expenses. Any issues that arose were diffused by taking the position of what is best for the welfare of the kids rather than personalizing issues between us.

The kids will stay in their home, possibly for the next two years when my daughter goes to kindergarten, providing the ex with a greater opportunity to work. I'm not on the hook for any more money than what I am currently paying. The goal over that timeframe will be to prepare the house for sale, with the hope that the value and our equity will be far better for both parties than trying to sell it now. The mediator figured best case, were we to get asking price based on a market analysis, we'd be lucky to have 10k to split between us. (Yes, we were very nearly underwater)
There will be language outlining her responsibilities, putting all utility accounts in her name, maintaining upkeep, etc. I will get a duplicate of the mortgage statement to assure that it is being paid. Payment will be automated. In the event that I am required to contribute financially to maintenance and upkeep , I will recoup those costs at the time of sale.

I will also be including language about cohabitation, should she at some point in the future desire to have the boyfriend move in. At the moment, I don't think it's something she would consider at all - but over the course of two years, anything is possible.

As tragic and bizarre as this is likely to sound, our relationship in dissolving the marriage has been healthy and respectful thus far. It is what I had hoped for. We have come to terms with it. No more rollercoaster. It feels done. Although sad, there is also an overwhelming sense of relief. It is likely that we will only require one more session to complete the agreement, then the mediator will write up the documents and we can apply for a court date. I don't anticipate that will happen until the fall.


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## sinatra (Apr 6, 2009)

Looks like you're well on your way Deejo. I'm really happy that things seem to be going well with the mediation. Cross your fingers my divorce doesn't get dirty fast. 

I think it's amazing that you have come this far this fast and you're looking at this all in a very healthy way. You're a testament to all on this board. 

Keep us posted bud.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Had our last mediation session. This one hurt. It actually bothered me at several points where it felt like the mediator was actually stirring the pot. There were a handful of instances where the mediator created issues where there had been none previously. We had holidays, vacations, and taxes pretty much figured out - but it almost felt like the mediator had a can of gas, and by God, she was going to make sure there was a fire to throw it on.

It also irked me that the mediator kept referencing the disparity in our income. The disparity was one of our core issues. I wanted her to increase her income - she chose not to.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

My dh hates that "disparity" too!

You know, someone bringing up the fact that he makes 84.2% and I make 15.8% of our income and he works 93 hours a month and I work 144 hours a month.

_Poor guy_. Damn disparity!:rofl:

Sorry, it is just that you keep pointing out how she is supposed to go work more, increase her income, but wait, she has a child with issues you described so clearly. 

How is she supposed to go work a high power, high income job AND worry about a son with a disability, etc?

Not that I am AGAINST you here, but just realistic. Someone has to be there for HIM and your three year old....too!

I know what it is like trying to juggle work and kid(s) with issues, my dh working, too....I have had to quit work THREE times in the last THREE years to keep control of the kid issues...

Trying to keep your income up and having to quit working three times isn't the best thing for getting the income UP!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

> Sorry, it is just that you keep pointing out how she is supposed to go work more, increase her income, but wait, she has a child with issues you described so clearly.


I don't think I can possibly convey in a post how sick, and angry that straw man argument makes me. So please, just don't do it. Ask me a question about what I do, what she does, or how my son's issues would prevent her from earning income, but attempting to twist our circumstances into my being some ignorant knucklehead, oblivious to the effort required on the part of a mother is juvenile.

I think this is also why the mediator's attitude ticked me off. She doesn't know the story or the details. 

She owns 2 businesses that give her the flexibility to set her own hours. As a personal trainer, were she to work only when our youngest were in school - she could earn $500 a week. I'm talking 9 hours. Her other business is basically a pyramid scheme that actually _costs_ her more than she makes doing it. Her unwillingness to shift focus in either of those endeavors added truck-loads of resentment. I had to change the work I do, in order to keep us above water. That change meant I would be traveling more, and home less. She resented _that_. At the end of the day, we needed more income, and somebody had to make it.
I'm not trying to make you agree with my position and crap all over hers. I felt frustrated. I couldn't win. We couldn't win.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

It's been a rough couple of weeks. In spite of all of the efforts to put this into a framework that leads to something better for the both of us, and using anger as a shield - I'm unable to do that right now. I just feel broken. Wondering when things get better, and these feelings will pass.


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## ConfusedinColumbus (Feb 20, 2009)

Hang in there bro...


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## separation anxiety (Aug 10, 2009)

I have to say Deejo my situation has some similarities to yours, but much less into the process than you are. 1 week separated.

I have to respond to snix11, in that if there are any similarities with my wife, the reassurances will only work if the recipient can accept the positive reinforcement and help themselves. I have tried for years to listen, help, "cheerlead", but with no effect. 
In the end, she must find her way, no one can do that. We all have to find our way.......OR always be looking elsewhere for answers.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Most of the highly emotional stuff has settled out. There are no longer any delusions, attempts, or talk of reconciliation.

There have been a number of revelations that it is undoubtedly time to stop trying to fix what became broken. Although there are still moments where we both feel that pull.

Things are still financially a mess. This has contributed to the level of stress. Part of our problem is also proximity. My apartment is a mile away from the house. It's great for being accessible to the kids, but it also means I'm accessible to her. We got caught in this bizarre quasi-marriage where if she needed help with the kids, a babysitter, something addressed at the house, etc. - she would call me. For emotional support, a night out, and a lay however, she has the boyfriend.

I responded because I have continued to remain invested in her well-being. I'm not pining and hoping she'll take me back - I just did these things because I was around and wanted her and the kids to be ok. I think she would be just fine with this dynamic. Frankly, I know she would be fine with not divorcing. At no point in this process has she been proactive. I don't think she's trying to take advantage, she just wants to avoid it. Avoidance was a big factor that broke us in the first place.

Being so accessible to the kids has diluted the notion that mom and dad aren't together. Not a bad thing, but it's also not the reality of the situation. So, I am trying to get things financially squared away, and I plan on moving. My commute to and from work is 2.5 hours and lots of gas. 

When I told her of my plan, she immediately threw out, "What about the kids?"
She has consistently made decisions that I neither liked, nor agreed with to suit her purposes. Once again, now that I am doing the same, the perception is that I am being adversarial.

If things go to plan (and when do they ever?) we will be legally divorced by year's end.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Wow. These things can have more damned twists than a pretzel.

We had a conversation yesterday. We haven't had a great deal of contact over the last two months. Previously, I raised the accessibility issue - and my moving.

She informs me that the boyfriend is out of the picture (again) and has been for the last week and a half.

She then proceeds to go on and talk about her inability to make a rational decision. How she feels like if she doesn't get herself squared away, that she ultimately won't be any good to anyone - primarily herself.

It wasn't a request for reconciliation. It was as close to an acknowledgment of her issues and her desire to address them (instead of avoid them, or blame someone or something else) that I have ever heard.

I told her I was happy for her - which is absolutely true.

I asked her what this meant in terms of moving forward with the divorce. She responded that she would respect what I needed to do, but that she would like to hold off. 

I agreed. Neither of us viewed it as a moment of reconciliation or happily ever after. Nor do I think it is some kind of tactic on her part to string me along. There's really nothing to string along at this point.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I have left this quasi-blog alone for a while. After all, I framed this thread as an outcome, and we still don't have one. At least not neatly packaged in a box with a bow on top.

There is no more pain and anguish. Anger _at_ her has come and gone. Anger in general is something that I am learning to embrace and express (appropriately) instead of avoiding or ignoring.

The kids are doing great. I still occasionally am asked "when are you going to be done with your house?" by my son, and about two weeks ago, my daughter was sitting in my lap and said, "You used to live with us, do you remember that?" The questions are matter of fact, they aren't laced with melancholy. I tell them that sometimes I feel sad that we don't live in the same house all the time, but I am so happy when we get to have sleep-overs, watch movies and do fun things at daddy's. I asked them if they like that too. In response I got big grins and nodding heads.

For perspective, there are also lots of upsides to de-coupling. You are able to set aside time and pursue interests that you simply wouldn't consider if still married. As odd as this may sound, I also get to connect with my kids in ways that I just don't think would happen if we remained married. I take the kids down to my dad's for dinner every Sunday I have them. They love going to grampy's. Don't know if we would have rituals like this as a couple.
Being single is not a bad thing. Taking the time to get to know yourself and do some personal tuning up is far less exciting than running around willy-nilly trying to fill the 'hole' with a shiny new partner that is perfect and will make all of your dreams come true; but _not_ jumping in to another relationship has been a far better decision, and will make me a far better partner when I do get on someone ... I mean start seeing someone.

I can also add that I think my job is pretty secure. My company just had the best quarter in it's seven year history, during the worst of economic times - that's saying something.

I'm very ready for 2009 to be over, and looking forward to what 2010 has in store.


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## noideato20 (Oct 27, 2009)

DJ I for one really appreciate you posting again on a thread that started a year ago. My situation is less than 3 months old and I think sometimes I think its gonna turn around on a dime. Its not. Its gonna take time which people hate because we want things right now. This has literally been the hardest thing that I have ever been through. I have been through some major crap but nothing like what this is. However I am still breathing. Im still taking care of my kids. Im still laughing. I know Im gonna make it especially when I read stories like yours. Thankyou.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

noideato20, you absolutely will make it. The time thing is really hard to get your head around until you have lived it.

Culturally we feel compelled to always be proactive and 'not put off til tomorrow what we can do today'. But when it comes to either mending or ending a marriage there are no benefits whatsoever to a 'hurry up and do it' attitude. I did it, and see many others doing the same:
"I need answers now"
"We need to figure this out before it's too late."
"I want to get this over with."
"We're wasting time."

I think many of us want a resolution as quickly as possible to avoid, or lessen the pain associated with dissolving your marriage.

I have no issue with those that want to get it over with. They may _need_ to, for whatever reason. If they are being harmed by their partner, or have a new partner waiting in the wings, reasons for haste are understandable.

But for those relationships _where both partners are invested in reconciliation_ or divorcing with dignity, it doesn't have to be nor should it be a sprint. Again, in this regard, the operative word is harm. If one partner doesn't want to move forward and prolonging the process will cause damage to the other partner, well then, maybe you are better off making Kool-Aid instead of wine.

I didn't want to be taken advantage of. And there was a period where I fully felt this was the case. 

I'm not being harmed. Frankly, we do more financial harm to one another if we do divorce.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I watched a movie last night called "Alexandra's Project" on Hulu - Watch your favorites. Anytime. For free.. Here is a direct link. I don't have real television. I have an HD LCD TV hooked up to a media PC. My computer is my cable tv, stereo, Blu-ray player and home entertainment center. The movie is also available via Netflix.

This thing is like the evil twin of "Fireproof".

This movie deeply and seriously affected me, given my circumstances I know why, but holy crap ...

This is definitely for mature audiences only. And I can assure you, you won't like the film. I guess maybe I appreciate what the director was going for, and recognize that by not liking it, means that the film had an impact and he did his job. If anyone decides to watch this thing, I'd love to know what you thought.

*I considered launching a thread for this, but it's a pretty obscure movie, and decided it is relevant to my circumstances due to it's off-the-hook bizarre way of addressing sexual issues in a relationship.

Be forewarned if you choose to watch this thing. It is NOT a feel good film.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I got an email from my wife at 11:30 tonight. Earlier this afternoon we had yet another of our, at this point, too many to count dead-end conversations. Her shutting down, my being frustrated as a result. No progress.

The email tonight asked me to check out Mort Fertel's Marriage Fitness Boot Camp.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow - what do you think?
is she for real????


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Man, what do I think ...

I think she really still doesn't know.
I think she knows exactly where things went wrong. Sexual issues linked to negative sexual experiences, and a bat-sh!t crazy mother. Two horrendous pregnancies, and a child with special needs. She acknowledges that she ignored me, for years.

I think that I played my hand completely wrong in trying to reestablish our connection. My 'nice guy' efforts only widened the gap.

I think she believes that she never truly invested herself in repairing the marriage with me, she avoided it by becoming involved with someone else.

The someone else had 'nice guy' syndrome even worse than me. Lo and behold, the shine has worn off that penny pretty quickly. He continuously tries to convince her that he is a better choice than me. (Yup, I've seen the emails. I work in tech after all ...) Yet he fails to recognize that this very action makes him less appealing, not more. In a bizarre twist of fate, he is the one that feels threatened, not me.

I don't think that she believes he is a better choice, he was a choice that made her feel better.

I think that paying 400 bucks for a 'maybe' is not something I'm quite ready to do. And of course in a greater cosmic joke, I have begun attracting new women (of which she is unaware). None of whom are hotter than my wife in this old dog's opinion.

Funny how things work. Or don't ...

What I do know is that neither of us have been able to put this thing down with a clear conscience. I also think that _this all had to happen_ for us to make our own personal adjustments. If we reconcile, it will be because we chose to, not because we didn't have other options.

So guess what? Stuff is still happening. I told her, regardless of our outcome, we should write a book.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Wow deejo
that's an amazing story for sure....things change don't they?
time...
keep us posted 
K


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Hi K,

It's easy for both of us to remember what we used to share. And anyone in their right mind would want that back. We were very, very happy by anyone's measure.

The sex was frequent, robust and extremely athletic while she was pursuing me. That lasted a little over two years. It all changed once I made it clear that I wanted to build a life with her. It wasn't immediate, it was gradual and easy to overlook when you are in love.

She shuts down if we try to address the issues we face. Where we are at now, is that she and I cannot communicate. 

I believe she wants to do the program to focus on the reasons why we fell in love in the first place. I'm fine with this, but under the covers the problems don't go away even if we make nice with one another.

Sex is, and will continue to be the elephant in the room, and there is really no telling if this issue can be overcome. 

Neither of us is willing to accept an unsatisfying sex life. And I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me that she made this decision based upon having had an ongoing sexual relationship with someone else. What I can admit, is that it made her realize that it could be pleasurable and stress free, and consequently how deep the dysfunction associated with having sex with me had become. She also remembered how _good_ it had been with me.

Neither of us is 'excited' about this. But we also both agree that when we are standing before the judge, we want there to be no doubt in our minds that we have made every effort, and are making the right choice by divorcing.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

and you have kids right?
so you would both be remiss if you didn't do this...
my honest opinion is that everything can be sorted through communication...
now if you guys are both willing to try to communicate to work towards a common goal (reconcilliation) I believe that it is highly likely you will work it out...
it all sounds positive to me


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## Believe (Aug 27, 2009)

wow! Thats about all I can muster up right now. 
You totally should write a book.


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## lost1234 (Aug 24, 2009)

wow...and double wow!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

We sat down after she went to therapy today. I'm home, had my son, who has an ear infection.

Over the past few months I have become very invested in the whole 'man' thing. Who am I? What is my personal code? What do I want for my life? How do I want to be perceived and treated, by peers, co-workers, lovers? What are my boundaries? What are my needs, and importantly, am *I* meeting, or working towards fulfilling those needs?

I have become comfortable with myself, being alone, and charting a course for the next few years.

I don't need a relationship; I used to truly believe that I had less value as a person if I wasn't in a relationship. I used to assume sole responsibility for the success or failure of my relationships. If things were going wrong, I smoothed them over - even at an emotional cost to myself. 

So ... I changed. And of course in the face of cosmic irony, once we abandon pursuing the thing that we desire, and no longer desire it; the the thing we could not obtain seeks us out instead.

I cannot go back. I told my wife that I have chosen not to attempt reconciliation. 

She said to me; "I feel like you have all these expectations that I don't meet."
I replied, "That's correct."
She responded with, "Then this won't work."
Me: "No. It won't."

Her eyes welled up and she mouthed the words "I will let you go."
I looked her, and said the same.

I remember all the nights of agony and tears. I didn't have any for this last exchange about where we take our lives from here. 

I'm neither sad nor relieved. The best description that I can give, is that I am certain.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Wow Deejo. You have come a long way in your journey. Congratulations on that. Let me know how those books are on your list on the other thread. I've read one. Be interested if any of the others are good.


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## Help239 (Oct 20, 2009)

Deejo - 

I have always appreciated your input into my situation. I wish you the best in your future and your latest decision. I know you will be fine because you are level headed. Your story reads very similar to mine. Reasons for divorce, wife cheating, etc. However, there are a few differences. 

First, my wife has been very bitter and vindictive towards me during the last 4 months after filing for divorce. All the while stating she wants an amicable divorce and filing retraining orders at the same time. 

Second, she had NO issues moving the OM into OUR home as soon as a temporary order was issued. That was only approved because my counsel was not informed about the filing and I was not represented in court. The order was thrown out within a few weeks. Then they still pursued a permanent order and at the last minute withrdrew the request - after costing an arm and a leg in legal fees.

Third, I'm in the house and she left on her own accord. Still bitter, wanting no communication whatsoever. Of course I paid for all of the bills during the last 4 months and she doesn't want to get a job. 

I'm going to pray that she doesn't come around in the future to ask for reconciliation. The damage she is doing to our kids is unforgiveable. Looking at your timeline it was years in the making to get you to this point. I really hope I can move forward and establish a stable environment with someone else so the kids can have a positive example of what a family should be.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Help, reading your story has at times broke my heart and at others really made me want to punch something. I appreciate your comments.

I still wanted to 'fix' it for a very long time. I believed that was what I was supposed to do. The problem was that she believed it was what I was supposed to do as well. She never took any clear-cut steps or sense of ownership to address the issues that directly impacted our relationship. It was easier for her to believe the work required to mend the marriage was instead unrealistic expectations that I held over her head.

In your case, it seems that your wife's reasoning and defense revolves around demonizing you. From her perspective, you are an obstacle that gets in her way, so she despises you for it. Truth is, she's her own obstacle and likely always will be. You don't need that.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Hi, Deejo. That feeling of "certain" is exactly what I felt. Took me a LOT longer to get there, though.

I want to ask you something b/c what you wrote here seems a bit contradictory to another of your posts/threads. 



> She never took any clear-cut steps or sense of ownership to address the issues that directly impacted our relationship.


v. 



> women are attracted to men who demonstrate strength, confidence, compassion, and embrace the role of being a leader in their life and relationships.


When you wrote that your wife took no ownership for her part, it seems to contradict the idea suggested by some men here that women need/desire to be led--just curious as to how you see yourself fitting into this whole puzzle. 

I can reconcile these two by seeing that the 2nd quotation speaks of men being "a" leader in their lives and relationships, not "the" leader, which is consistent with ALSO wanting a woman who acts like an adult, and takes responsibility for HER role in the relationship. It seems that you and LIL want women who act like adults, and you resent those who don't.

I think that is perfectly consistent with what a lot of women here have said, that we want our men to act like adults, not to act like children who need to be mothered. In my experience, women resent and find unattractive men who do not act adult--meaning, those who don't take responsibility for their own emotions, acts, relationships, etc. They tend to be guys who THINK they are being 'nice' when, in fact, they are acting like children. They do not know the difference between assertiveness and aggressiveness. They do not understand the difference between showing deference to another's opinion/judgment and giving up their own. 

Anyway, your thoughts will be appreciated. Thanks.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Saying that my spouse made absolutely no progress in her growth would be disingenuous. What I found disheartening was when it came to dealing with the issues that directly confronted us as a couple, if faced with fight or flight; she fled. This has been the case throughout our relationship, and when it comes down to it, I want a fighter. 

And to be clear, there are very real and deep issues in play, particularly on the sexuality side, including being victimized in the past.

To frame things as you put it, she is not an adult. But by no means is she frivolous, self-centered, spoiled, etc. Her emotional immaturity is without a doubt the direct result of emotionally abusive parents. By immaturity, I mean that there are necessary and substantial skills required for coping as an adult, that she simply doesn't have. Her scope is limited. It would be like expecting a 10 year old to do trigonometry. I don't say that to be demeaning.

Additionally, my wife _does_ wants to be led, but she needs a confident and benevolent leader. Her parents deprived her of the ability to self-actualize, so being led for her is a slippery slope. In that area, I was the problem. I didn't know how. I never even assumed that I was supposed to. I went into the marriage with an equal power and responsibility mentality, and that failed spectacularly. Leadership was foisted upon me in subtle and dysfunctional ways. Consequently, I resented it and she felt that I was controlling; _despite the fact that she was the one that handed me control._ I was a crappy leader.
That dynamic was actually how I became attracted to the entire alpha, leader, dominant piece. 

The second quote you referenced was related to my comments about the book "Being the Strong Man a Woman Wants".
Quite honestly, I think this particular book you would find engaging. It is a narrative and illustration of the concepts that we have discussed in the other threads with none of the baggage. It's more poignant than crass. There is no chest thumping, but the underlying themes aren't significantly different than the advice offered up on the boards. Hell, if you think you might be interested, I'll send you my copy.

At the end of the day, one of the things I wanted to avoid was my spouse and I ending our marriage completely despising one another. Physically, we are still attracted to one another. I think she is beautiful. I love her smile. We closed our conversation the other day with me saying "Go be happy."

In the scope of our relationship as it stands, we do great. We co-parent wonderfully. We will always be a part of one another's life. I'm hoping that remains something we can be proud of.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

"So ... I changed. And of course in the face of cosmic irony, once we abandon pursuing the thing that we desire, and no longer desire it; the the thing we could not obtain seeks us out instead."


BRILLIANT! I can't say it enough...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Kick in the ass, ain't it?


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Absolutely! I love your words.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Input from the other side*

Want to say thanks to Turnera for introducing me to the concept of 'toxic shame'. It came up in another thread and really caught my attention. The following is an email exchange between myself and my ex who won't ex me. My hope in posting it is that it gives that tiny glimpse of the person who is the other half of this saga, who doesn't have a voice here, other than what I choose to say about her.

My email to her:

_Been thinking about you a lot lately. I came across the phrase 'toxic shame' and started looking into it. Some of what I read was like listening to you talk. It made me sad and angry. Not angry at you, but angry about what was done to you - as a small child, as a young woman, as a wife and a mother. It made me sadder still that in the end, I contributed to it.

I very much wanted the job of loving you - because you had shown me unwavering love and commitment.You deserved it. For a lifetime. I never wanted you to doubt or question that you were the most important person in somebody's world - mine. I remember the feelings and actions vividly. It all felt so fun, easy, and natural.

You still deserve it. For a lifetime.I never want you to doubt or question that you are the most important person in somebody's world - your son, your daughter, most importantly, I want you to believe it for yourself.. I want you to feel and know that you have a tremendous amount to offer to anyone you choose, including yourself.

The role of partner and lover may not be mine any longer - but I need you to know this; I'm still your biggest fan.I want you to be your biggest fan too.

Toxic shame is about walls, and dissociation. Tragically, that is where you and I ended up. I never wanted to be associated with making you feel inadequate. I wanted the job of building you up, not tearing you down. I relished doing that for years. It saddens me to think that the memories that have the most presence and weight when we are together now, are the bad ones. Consequently, we can barely hold a conversation, let alone connect emotionally with the depth we once had.

I look forward to seeing you joyful again. Maybe with <TOM>, maybe with someone else, maybe a chick? 

Anyway, take a look at this link, and maybe explore the subject with <therapist>? Toxic shame fits with the notion of your sexuality while in pursuit mode, and then feeling ambivalence bordering on distaste when there needn't be any more questions about how your partner feels about you - you just need to feel and believe it as well.

Inner Voices, Toxic Shame, Part 2


Deejo_


Her response:

_Deejo,
I read the article and I cried. When i talked with <therapist> last week, we talked about this. She gasped and said, omg, it sounds like post-traumatic stress. I had no idea (and neither did <therapist>) how deep this runs and I hate feeling like a victim. But,you're right. The joy in my life is not about me. It is almost only and always surrounding the kids. I cry much more than I laugh. For so many years, I've carried so much of this without ever realizing that it existed. Having the benefit of hindsight, it makes me so sad and guilty and just crappy to realize how this (I) affected our marriage. I'm sorry, Deejo. But, more than anything, I want to overcome all of this and prove my strength. I WILL NOT pass this on to my children. That much I know for sure.



Oh, an update on <son>. He does have fluid behind his eardrum and the dr. said it should clear up on its own in a couple of weeks. So we are playing the wait and see game. I will keep you updated...


I'm glad you are enjoying your work in Canada. I still think you never give yourself enough credit. I think of you, too and I also wish for your happiness...


<Signed>

_


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Those emails showed caring and love on both of your parts.

Thank you for sharing...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I think it was easy to overlook the degree and depth of the damage done to her, because by the time I met her, she already had blast walls; six feet thick put around all of it. Outwardly she seemed incredibly well adjusted.

She was adopted. As was her brother. Adoptive mom used to threaten to call (and actually would pick up the phone and feign calling) the social worker to come take her away to an orphanage if she didn't behave. She did this for years starting when my ex was 3.

Everything was conditional. "Do this and I will love you. Don't, and I won't."

Mother hated her boyfriends and would force her to end any relationship she was in. Consequently, she became involved with a married adult when she was 17/18. He coached her in a sport. He also treated seducing and manipulating young girls as a sport. Went on for nearly a year, same deal, same message: "Do this and I will love you. Don't, and I won't."

She carried the same belief system into her sex life in college. "Do this and I will love you. Don't, and I won't." 

Parents continued to ride her through college. If grades weren't up to snuff, mom called her "a partying $lut, wasting their money."

When we got together she used to go home every weekend - because that was what she was supposed to do. When she came back on Sunday, she would cry in my arms ... every single time, until I encouraged her to stop going home. This of course made them hate me.

Mother said "He will never love you." referring to me. 
The day she called home to tell her parents we were engaged, she got off the phone crying.

Neither the mother nor the father believes that our son has an actual disorder. What they believe - and honest to God, told my ex, is that she is a lousy mother. All of his shortcomings are because of her (our) parenting failures. They think we are over-tolerant and doting.

When they learned that we were divorcing, the message wasn't one of sympathy and support, it was "I told you so."


There is something to be said when you get to the place of being able to set aside feeling wronged by your partner or ex-partner and demonizing them, and being able to see them as a whole person. Or sometimes, a not truly whole person.

Knowing what I know, and the hurdles she has overcome, and has yet to overcome, in my own self-interest I don't think I could go back. But, as the person with whom she unquestionably had the longest, most intimate, positive and loving relationship in her life - with two beautiful children to show for it; I don't think I can ever write her off or give up on her either.

I haven't mentioned that I have started a new relationship. I think starting something new, always makes you reflect upon the old. There is a line from a song that has stuck with me ever since I heard it for the first time:

"Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end."

Closing Time - Semisonic


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Deejo,

Toxic shame seems an interestnig topic. Once I might look into regarding my w. She didn't have your w's background, but some of her thinking is geared that way. If you don't do x, then you don't love me and I won't love you. 

You've grown into an amazing person. And the e-mail exchange you shared was incredible. And I agree once you stop demonizing and blaming and start stepping back and looking at the whole -- it is amazing what you see. That is the stage I'm in -- looking at her in the whole. I nolonger demonize or blame her or me -- what happened happened at it is no longer of concern to me. Just her well being and that of my son.

Yes that song has resonated with me as well.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Deejo - thanks for sharing....I so hope you guys can continue to cherish the connection that you will always have....


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Haven't really shared what is going on for some time.

Nope ... still not divorced. I used to fret about that. I don't any longer.

I certainly don't think our circumstances are at all unique, particularly when contrasted against some other stories here.

I will not say that we are reconciling. We are trying to determine if we can even establish the groundwork for reconciliation.

My eight-year-old is on the autistic spectrum. Public school is never going to meet his needs - and as the social gap between he and his peers continues to widen, he becomes more of a target for bullying and ridicule. He needs to be somewhere else. Somewhere else is going to cost a lot of money. Money that simply will not be present if we divorce.

It is a consideration much farther down the line, but he may never be able to live independently.

Parenting and conducting the business of our lives has never been an issue for us. Being an emotionally and intimately bonded husband and wife, has.

Throughout all of this, I believe, and others have commented that our children have done remarkably well. As parents, the kids have complete access to both of us. We adore our kids. We consistently behave to suit their best interest. We still have 'family dates' and they are gloriously fun and positive. 

We have come this far. We have lived independently for over a year and a half. There are no delusions, and certainly no reason to lie to one another. Before deciding to even attempt this, we both agreed to 'clear the decks'. TOM is out - undoubtedly waiting in the wings, undoubtedly hurt, undoubtedly believing this exercise will fail. But ... there has been no contact for many weeks. I trust her in this, once again because there is simply no point or benefit in lying. If she wanted him, or believed he was truly worthwhile, she would have chosen him long ago. 

I am no longer dating, and dumped my online dating profile. 

We are both in a good space individually. We both are ready to move on with our lives. With relatively clear heads and no bitterness or other relationships to muddy the water, we are taking a look to determine if we can move on with our lives together. We are attending counseling and we are dating. Eyes wide open, none of the issues that were in place when we chose to dissolve our marriage have been eliminated or addressed. The big difference now is that we each have a very different, more balanced perspective, and a willingness to dig them up and take a look at them. 

Please withold applause until the completion of the next Act ... 

As always, thank you to the TAM community. I will keep you informed.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Deejo,

Can we at least do a golf clap?


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Always an inspiration Deejo: No matter what the outcome I'm sure it is rewarding to know that you are both working together toward a common goal. Although your situation might not be entirely unique, I think putting this kind of effort into 'understanding', (whether for reconciliation or not), is certainly unusual this far down the road. I am sure that you are partialy motivated by doing what is best for your children, and that is truly admirable. Whether you divorce or not, the kids will surely benefit from your efforts either way.
Thanks for the update Deejo, always look foward to reading your posts.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

For those of you still playing along at home ...

The exercise has ended. Although it would be nice to imagine that we rediscovered some wonderful, shining moments - that just wouldn't be true. We both deeply appreciate, and miss what we _had_ but it's just a memory. Actually ... absolutely nothing changed in our relationship dynamic over the last 5 weeks.

To her credit, wife has scheduled the parenting class that must be fulfilled in our state to get a court date, and has filled out the financial paperwork.

I made it clear that I want 'out' of limbo. It's time for this to be over. It should have been over long ago.

I have been calm, patient, and respectful. I have no desire to go back to Angry Guy mode, but my calm, patience and respect are now tempered by boundaries and goals.

I plan on relocating when my lease is up. I currently live a little better than a mile away from the house - just worked out that way when I moved out in 08. I am not yet sure how far I will move. Closer to work, family and friends is the obvious choice, but means being an hour away from the kids. 

I will continue to post until the proverbial dotted lines have been signed.

Thanks again all for your advice and support.


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## Brewster 59 (Jun 19, 2010)

Reading your post and watched that movie, wow that was something else.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You watched 'Alexandra's Project'?
Not really a date movie, is it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brewster 59 (Jun 19, 2010)

Deejo said:


> You watched 'Alexandra's Project'?
> Not really a date movie, is it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think anyone who thinks their W is being a monster should watch that, oooh my god that was off the hook for I low budget film I really liked it.


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## hyndsight1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Deejo: You are a patient man, best of luck in your progression. When my last hope dissapeared it couldn't have been over soon enough. Limbo sucks. When I signed the last paper any feelings of sadness or regret were overshadowed with relief. Things aren't all bright and sunny...yet, but now I can focus my energy on more productive things. Good luck with the re-location, I have been considering moving a similar distance away to persue personal goals, but being that far away from the kids would be rough.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

hyndsight, thanks for the well wishes. The heartbreak piece came and went a very long time ago.

I had not pursued divorce with a vengeance by choice - never because I hoped she would take me back. Had the climate changed enough that reconciliation were an option - I would have explored it. But, unsurprisingly, and unfortunately, we never, ever, got close in any sense of the word.

I wanted to keep the relationship positive. What I have come to realize is that the relationship can remain positive, without the need for us to be 'friends'. 

We have *not* been able to make a distinct separation in our lives - and odds are that as long as we remain in close proximity to one another, it further complicates that separation - and the potential for moving on in a healthy way with someone else, for both of us.

My goal is to live where I can be close to support when I do have the kids, that would be my family. Right now, the only support I have available is the stbx.

It is amazing what you learn about yourself, your partner, people and relationships in general on this journey. I'm better for having learned them - although it is very unfortunate that the cost of the lessons is so high.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Deejo,

Yes it is amazing what you do learn about yourself, your partner, people and relationships in general on the journey. And like you I only wish the price of admission wasn't so high for me and more importantly my son.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

Deejo,
Every time I came across your thread, I wanted to say something but I've stopped. Your story more than anyone else's feels so raw and personal to me. As an adoptive mother, I wanted to hear that your stbx is fine and that she's happy, well-adjusted, and fully healed. Yes, I also wished for your happy, fairy ending of getting back together and living happily after. I just don't know what to say, but I want to say something the conveys my best wishes for your and her healing.

While preparing for my DD's adoption, I've read quite a few books on adoption so that I can be of help to my DD when she comes to full grips of facing the the reality of being adopted. As much as I tell her now that she also has a birth mommy who loves her very much, I do know that one day that my DD will realize that she was abandoned by her. It's her grief that she'll have to process herself, and it's my prayer that the process be as painless as possible. It's my dream that one day, when my DD grows old enough, she and her birth mother get reunited and healed together. 

Reading through your story, I'm not sure whether your W has ever felt safe to address the loss of her birth family while growing up. Combination of the grief from unaddressed birth family loss and the fear of abandonment from her adoptive family's based on certain conditions could have easily damaged her self-esteem and self-identity. As she has clearly indicated, these issues will manifest again regardless of her choice of partners in the future, unless she heals from her wounds. 

I saw your maturity, insights and understanding from what you have posted so far, and I don't doubt that you have given all you can to her, your kids, and the relationship. Yet, I still believe that you're closer than anyone else who can help her heal... I also hear that you're so mad about the whole situation (your thread about toxic shame), and it's only fair to you that you walk away so you can find your own happiness without the burden of her deep wounds that only she herself has the power to heal. This is why I stopped every time...

Since she's been given up as a baby and grew up with fear of being abandoned unless xxx, I can see why any hint of conditions of love will clamp her down irrationally. Yes, it's her issue that only she can address, and it's too much for you to accept, but I sense that you still deeply care about and love her. Perhaps with time, she'll find her healing and become healthy enough to maintain a mature relationship. With your space and separation, maybe you can now just become her cheerleader who unconditionally accepts her (no blames intended here whatsoever).

I wish you and her all my best.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

questions,

your post had a tremendous impact on me. You made me teary dammit ...

In just a few sentences you summarized everything about her that I have alluded to in over a year and a half of posting.

She got screwed. Right out of the gate. And never complained about any of it. She does know that her birth mom was 16. She has thought very often about looking, but like so many other things, couldn't bring herself to pull the trigger. Several years ago I did roughly 2 hours of research - called an office, and they called back and left a VM that she picked up - and she was terrified. She did nothing with the information. I presume she could not possibly cope with finding her birth mom, and being rejected - so better to leave it alone. 

I need my boundaries. I functioned for a very long time without them - and it cost me dearly. It cost me everything that I _thought_ defined who I was, what my life was about.

Yes, I need to move on. Yes, I have full awareness of the extent of her issues. She doesn't get a free pass because of them, and I reserve the right to still be angry about her behavior but being aware makes it easy to see why some of these things became insurmountable. Yes. They will continue to hamper her. Yes. I still love her, but not in a forlorn sick puppy kind of way. 

Despite the way things have worked out, I admire her efforts. She wants to be healthy. She wants her kids to be healthy. Her primary goal? Don't allow what happened to her, to happen to her children. 

No, I'm not miserable or broken, nor am I going to let what has happened hold me back from creating the life I do want and finding someone else to love. Maybe a few someones ... not at the same time mind you ...

Sincerely, thanks for your thoughtful post.




questions said:


> Deejo,
> Every time I came across your thread, I wanted to say something but I've stopped. Your story more than anyone else's feels so raw and personal to me. As an adoptive mother, I wanted to hear that your stbx is fine and that she's happy, well-adjusted, and fully healed. Yes, I also wished for your happy, fairy ending of getting back together and living happily after. I just don't know what to say, but I want to say something the conveys my best wishes for your and her healing.
> 
> While preparing for my DD's adoption, I've read quite a few books on adoption so that I can be of help to my DD when she comes to full grips of facing the the reality of being adopted. As much as I tell her now that she also has a birth mommy who loves her very much, I do know that one day that my DD will realize that she was abandoned by her. It's her grief that she'll have to process herself, and it's my prayer that the process be as painless as possible. It's my dream that one day, when my DD grows old enough, she and her birth mother get reunited and healed together.
> ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

It's unfortunate that you grieve the loss of the person you remember, but there isn't much grief associated with the person she has become.

I turned the corner when I actually started correlating my wife's transition to a death. She isn't evil or malicious, but the woman I fell in love with is gone. Not coming back. She's dead. Moreover, I can now pretty easily state that I do not love her. I have loving memories, but the well has gone dry.

The person I married was clear headed, organized, motivated, thoughtful, and very loving. Something happened or more appropriately, a series of something(s) happened - and the woman I married never came back. The woman she is now, is none of the things I indicated. It's creepy, and sad.

I miss my wife. I really don't miss the person I'm divorcing.


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## Brewster 59 (Jun 19, 2010)

Deejo said:


> It's unfortunate that you grieve the loss of the person you remember, but there isn't much grief associated with the person she has become.
> 
> I turned the corner when I actually started correlating my wife's transition to a death. She isn't evil or malicious, but the woman I fell in love with is gone. Not coming back. She's dead. Moreover, I can now pretty easily state that I do not love her. I have loving memories, but the well has gone dry.
> 
> ...


D I really love your posts and this one:iagree::iagree::iagree: my problem is im still in a funk missing the person I married who seems to be dead while something else is inhabitating her body.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

My first post to this thread was made 19 months and 20 days ago.
Time sure flies when you're having fun ...

The following novella is brought to you courtesy of new member yogachick, after reading her 'consequences' thread in Coping with Infidelity.


We sat at our financial advisor's office this afternoon. TOM at the house watching the kids. He comes cheap as far as babysitting goes.

Ours is not a complex divorce. We incurred some substantial debt surrounding basic living costs prior to my obtaining a much higher paying job. 8 weeks after I got that job, the sh!t hit the fan.

So now I am faced with once again, 'fixing' everything. Both cars are in my name. All of the joint debt is in my name. We purchased a time share in the waning days of our marriage thinking how wonderful it would be to know we would vacation as a family every year. That plan was still-born. 

I am now faced with the choice of trying to move forward with the divorce equitably and signing over my IRA to her, with the plan that she will cash it out with virtually no penalty - because she has no tax burden. We then use the money to settle out all of the debt. If we do this, I recover about $1200 a month. She gets a free car - because the money will also go towards paying for her vehicle which is again, in my name. She simply does not have the income to assume responsibility for any of the debt - and I can't make her get a job. I learned that a long time ago. Right now we live completely hand to mouth. All of the child support goes into paying for the house. Mortgage, taxes, utilities. She makes in a month what I give her per week in child support. Her money buys food, gas, her phone, and goes toward buying product in the multi-level marketing business that is going to make her a millionaire someday.

Or ...

Screw the draft mediation agreement. Cash out my IRA while still married take the 40% hit and do this the hard way with my own attorney. Assure that she inherits some of the debt and scars this whole thing will leave, rather than allowing her to feel that she is simply getting a 'clean slate' and new man.

I have had bouts of acceptance, along with bouts of anger and many moments of heart-breaking sadness.

My stbx's last approach to reconcile left a mark. A big one. I had moved to a place of acceptance, and focusing on myself. I was practicing what I preached. It was working. I was dating.

So when she approached me, it was not part of my plan. For a myriad of reasons that I have outlined previously: children, finances, history; I accepted her offer. I also accepted this offer as opposed to previous half-hearted efforts on her part, because she outlined what steps she was willing to take.

I changed nothing about who I was choosing to be, and how I behaved and interacted. I didn't jump at the opportunity. I didn't smother. I didn't jump up and down on Oprah's couch. What I did do ... that is now causing the wound to seep once again, is I _HOPED_.

I felt like I was in a good place. I felt like it was the right decision. I believed that we could rebuild a friendship, a bond, and our marriage. I believed it, and I wanted it. I was in.

She of course, wasn't. I don't know what she believed. In the end, absolutely nothing changed - not a whit. In 5 weeks, we hung out twice. We did stuff with the kids that we both felt great about. I never talked about feelings. I didn't talk about the future. What I do know is that despite unfriending TOM on Facebook, she viewed his page virtually every day of those 5 weeks. If they spoke via phone - it wasn't on her cell, but I actually believe they did not. But in the end, she hadn't let go of the affair. We didn't stand a chance. She chose him ... again. 

I continue and will continue to refer to it as an affair because it just ain't real and it was born out of lies. Their relationship can only exist with me in it. I facilitate it. I pay for it. I make it possible for her to think that a guy that can be available at a moment's notice to watch the kids, or go play family for an afternoon because he doesn't have steady employment is 'cool'. Take me and my 30 grand in child support out of that equation, and their 'freedom' takes on a very different dynamic.

It left me vexed why she ever even approached me to attempt reconciliation in the first place. 

Do I want to harm her? No.

Do I want her to walk away from this feeling comfortable and confident that I will simply play along and clean up the mess she helped create solely at my expense? No.

If anybody actually reads all of this, let me know and I'll send you some cookies.

Felt good to get it out. Kind of like puking.


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## ConfusedinColumbus (Feb 20, 2009)

Ah man, I have been AWOL for a while and came back to specifically check-in on you. I am bummed. Hang in there brother. PM me.


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## olivia234 (Sep 19, 2010)

id admit i only read page 1, 2 and skipped to the last one as it is now getting quite late but i do want to comment on something u posted on this last page:



> It's unfortunate that you grieve the loss of the person you remember, but there isn't much grief associated with the person she has become.
> 
> I turned the corner when I actually started correlating my wife's transition to a death. She isn't evil or malicious, but the woman I fell in love with is gone. Not coming back. She's dead. Moreover, I can now pretty easily state that I do not love her. I have loving memories, but the well has gone dry.
> 
> ...


this struck me as i feel the same as my ex... he was one person who i married and yet now hes someone different. the fact is i miss my husband but not the person who i told i am separating and will divorce. this post of all them struck me the most. i am bummed like others that there wasent a happy ending as i was hoping for one so maybe i could see some sort of hope for myself. i know there will not be.. i hope the future is brighter. thankyou for sharing this


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

The comments are appreciated. We are now back to dealing with one another on familiar ground.

Primarily, No Contact remains in effect unless it's about the kids. Will be scheduling what hopefully will be the last mediation session to insert the language about cashing out the IRA next week - and then barring any more drama or acts of God, we'll have our divorce by December.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Deejo,

Funny how things come back to familiarity. I'm at no contact except for my son now as well. I have nothing to say to my ex w. I'm not mean about it -- just have nothing to say.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Resurrecting my own zombie thread ... started over 3 years ago.

Read it. Winced more than a few times. A very familiar emotional and behavioral arc I played out, and see many others play out as well.

So ...

What happened?

I am moving back to the family home tomorrow. Four years after leaving it.

Ex and kids are moving to another, home in the same town. I am moving in to make the repairs necessary to put it on the market this spring, or, if I can refinance it, I may just stay. Don't know yet.

The kids are very happy that daddy will be 'close'. That makes me happy too.

Ex is still with her boyfriend. But that relationship is unsurprisingly, dysfunctional. I don't say that with any bitter glee.

I have met, dated, and partnered with some wonderful women over the last few years. No one has 'taken my breath away'. Certainly not to say these weren't fantastic people.

Always determined to stay 'true to myself' and 'do no harm'. Sadly the nature of relationships is such that that the second is inevitable regardless of your intent.

Ex and I without question, still care for one another a great deal. The day we walked out of court after putting the final stake in the marriage in front of a judge standing next to one another, we went out to the parking lot. She looked at me, fell into my arms and started to sob. 

So did I.

I have pretty much come full circle on the 'Man Up' thing.
Made my journey. Made my choices. Acted. Got results. It's all now just part of who I am. Don't feel compelled to proselytize on the subject, defend it, or myself for that matter. 

I very much look forward to the next half of my life, as a man, a father, and a partner.

My sincere, heart-felt, wishes to all who find themselves in this same arc. Saying goodbye, and closing the chapter on one part of their life, and regardless of whether it is with sadness and fear, or strength and enthusiasm, opening the door to a new chapter and stepping in ...

"Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end ..." Seneca


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I would imagine moving back "home" after all this time will be eerily weird.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I'm in. Lots of work to be done.

Yes it's weird ... but certainly not from the perspective of thinking about our relationship vs. her relationship with him. That just doesn't cross my mind. 

I do certainly remember it as being 'our' house, but it hasn't felt that way for a very, very, long time.

Flipside, our relationship is good. I like being close to the kids, and ex and I continue to get along swimmingly. Had dinner at her new place last night. Kids were very excited to show me the house.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I'm in. Lots of work to be done.
> 
> Yes it's weird ... but certainly not from the perspective of thinking about our relationship vs. her relationship with him. That just doesn't cross my mind.
> 
> ...


We speak much of "detachment" in this subforum.

I can think of no better example than the above.

And, your kids are the ultimate beneficiaries of your maturity.

Count me as an admirer.

P.S. I don't think you're a twerp.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

It's 'good'. And by no means in an unhealthy way.

I certainly recognize that others here have bat-sh!t crazy ex's that should be given a wide berth, avoided altogether, or a smack upside the head.

But that simply isn't our situation. Certainly not anymore.

Two weeks ago, I got a bonus check ... and in error they deposited over 2 grand into her account (support gets direct deposited). 

She called me immediately and let me know. I appreciated that.

Ha! Yeah ... the twerp thing ...

I was a very different guy then. Very different. Felt very lost, and felt compelled to 'make it all work'. Didn't know that could also appear as insensitive and selfish.

Now? I'm fine with being insensitive and selfish.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Deejo 

I just read this entire post and I am crying like a baby. 

I wish that my stbxh would have been as loving and sensitive and emotionally mature as you.

You're wife was a fool to let you go.

God Bless

VH


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

VeryHurt said:


> You're wife was a fool to let you go.
> 
> VH


Heard those same words from the woman who loves me now. 

Reread this thread. What Happened?

A lot.

I remember coming here in hopes of salvaging my marriage, remarkably ... 5 years ago. Wow.

I still believe in love, and in marriage. Not in a hopeless, romantic way. I want to see others succeed.

Success in love and marriage is infectious. We know it when we see it ... and we can feel it.

The tragedy in my eyes is that it has become so very, very, easy to get it wrong. To make mistakes. Lose your way, lose your love, lose yourself.

Love shouldn't ever be about loss. It is what you gain, what you share, what you choose to feed. What you grow. 

I do indeed hope that posting my experiences over a very long period of time, clearly demonstrates that anyone in similar circumstances CAN get through it and to the other side.

I wish you, and anyone else that comes to TAM looking for hope, support, or camaraderie whether in the full bloom of a loving relationship, or saying goodbye to one; the very best.

Thanks for reading.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Damn Deejo ...........you got me crying again !!!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

It's a gift ...


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

What a fantastic thread. Thanks for resurrecting it for us to read.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This thread is wow ... five and a half years old.

Still here.

I'm comfortable now, telling anyone that there is a resolution. Closure. Healing. Rediscovery. Happiness.

Ex and I have a very positive relationship. All has been forgiven. The bad old days have long since passed. We treat one another with dignity and respect. We are business partners after all, and our business is seeing to the welfare and success of our children.

Ex lives with her boyfriend. A new boyfriend, not the AP. They have been together for just over a year. They seem very happy. He built an addition onto his existing home to accommodate my kids. That's a pretty good outcome.

Kids are doing very well. They have adjusted extremely well. They feel safe, and loved. The ex's new blended family has posed some challenges, but all impressions are that things are good. I'm welcome in their home anytime. I used to go over to pick up the kids and would go knock on the door. Her BF answered, looked at me and said, "Deej, you don't have knock, just come in." No awkwardness at kids events or parties.
He has said to my ex that he admires the relationship we have, whereas he and his ex can't be in the same room together without things turning toxic and their kids getting anxious.

I'm back in the marital home. No nostalgia, or triggers whatsoever. But ... it is an anchor for my kids. This is the house they were born and grew up in. This is what they know. It is particularly important to my son. So ... I'm trying to hang onto it, and fix it up. It needs a lot of fixing.

Anyone who reads my other stuff knows that I've been dating ... a lot. I take breaks now and again. 

I travel a great deal which has definitely been the death knell for a number of relationships. Just not around enough to meet their needs ... and that's ok too.

My experiences have been overwhelmingly positive.

I still believe in marriage. Although I must confess that I feel no pull to remarry whatsoever.

I can still easily recall the pain, and difficulty of several years back. But it's a memory. I have to consciously call it up, it isn't present. It doesn't jump me out of the blue. 

At one point I had a goal of saving my marriage.

At another point I had a goal of divorcing with dignity.

I pulled off one of them with flying colors.

Although I would never want to insinuate to someone going through the pain of dissolving a broken marriage, that divorce can be a good thing; without question it can shape who you are really meant to be, and where it is you are supposed to go.

Sometimes the road is smooth and all downhill. Sometimes it's a goat-path where you can fall and really get hurt, but it never stops being a road ... and you just keep moving on down it. Wave and smile ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Not consciously trying to resurrect an old thread ... but this is the one that has the whole story, from a struggling painful marriage, to ending the marriage and what takes place in the aftermath, to what can happen for both parties once you get to the other side.

Everyone gets to the other side. It's just a matter of how and what kind of shape you are in when you get there.

My kids are 10 years older than when I first posted here. They are doing great. They are happy, well adjusted and have 2 parents, and lots of other adults that love them a great deal.

I'm getting married after being with my partner and her daughter for the last 4 years.

Ex lives with her partner and they raise 5 kids between them. Our mixed families do incredibly well.

I'm not on the site remotely as much as I used to be. But I absolutely still wish everyone here the very best in finding healthy ways to get through some of the most unhealthy circumstances one can face.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I'm getting married after being with my partner and her daughter for the last 4 years.


Congratulations!


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Deejo said:


> I still believe in marriage. Although I must confess that I feel no pull to remarry whatsoever.


Things change - feelings do also.

Congratulations.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Not consciously trying to resurrect an old thread ... but this is the one that has the whole story, from a struggling painful marriage, to ending the marriage and what takes place in the aftermath, to what can happen for both parties once you get to the other side.
> 
> Everyone gets to the other side. It's just a matter of how and what kind of shape you are in when you get there.
> 
> ...


*Congratulations, Old Man! Y'all deserve all of the happiness in the world!*


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Deej!

Always great to hear an old member come back and post that they are well and doing fine. It's important to the forum also as so many that came here recently are in the worst point in their life right now. It is just as critical that they see that even if they can't reconcile the marriage that down the road they'll come out the other end and do just fine. Thanks for the update.

Congratulations on your upcoming nuptials. My best to you, your bride and kids.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Congratulations!!!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Deejo!

First, it is so good to hear from you again! The place misses you!

Second


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Celebrated one year married to my lovely wife in late April.

My ex-wife married her partner of six years two Fridays ago.

The 'framily' as my son calls it, all gets along very well.

Kids are thriving. Feel loved by 2 sets of parents. Not sugarcoating divorce, but ... I do think that people in their own time can come to understand one of my favorite sayings, attributed to Seneca ... or music group Semisonic depending upon your frame of reference.

*"Every new beginning comes from some other beginnings end."*


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Decided to revisit my OG thread once again, based upon a question from @LATERILUS79 . 

Nearly 14 years ago. Wow.

2 failed marriages. Not at all proud of that fact.

Have a wonderful, healthy, and friendly relationship with ex-wife #1 who is remarried.
Have a supportive, but subdued relationship with ex-wife #2. Her daughter misses her step sibs, and I miss her.

Back in the dating game and swinging for the fence at 56. Believe I've just met my next partner, long term, short term, who's counting? Lovely 55 year old woman that is not Paulina Poriskova (an online dating inside joke from another thread) but can absolutely still rock a bikini while showing her AARP card ...


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Hey Deejo,
We are all a little older and a little wiser. I'm glad you are on a positive vector. Just want to wish you well.

When I first came to TAM I still had children in the home, a wife just diagnosed with MS, and chaos, just chaos in my life and marriage.

I'm retired now at 63, kids are living their lives, and things have settled down for the most part.

Looking back (2012) Tam was s big part of getting me through it.

I always appreciated your posts. 

Take care!


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## HarryBosch (6 mo ago)

Gives some of us hope. As one just starting this journey, the ups and downs must have been maddening. Happy for your new beginnings and hope the best for you.


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## HarryBosch (6 mo ago)

Deejo said:


> Heard those same words from the woman who loves me now.
> 
> Reread this thread. What Happened?
> 
> ...


 Wow... Moving stuff. Your story is an inspiration.


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## HarryBosch (6 mo ago)

I do have one curiosity.. at what point did you start dating? How long after your first divorce?


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## Lostinthelight (6 mo ago)

HarryBosch said:


> I do have one curiosity.. at what point did you start dating? How long after your first divorce?


It is an inspiration reading Deejo's posts. I'm going through my 2nd divorce.


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