# wife not interested in any intimacy



## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

So here's my story in brief. Sorry but even in brief its quite long, but if anyone has the patience to read it I'll be so grateful for any helpful thoughts.

I'm in my early 30s, married 8 years with 2 kids in an arranged marriage. Wife was always uncomfortable with virtually all forms of intimacy, including even hugs etc, she wasn't at all keen on it if it involve more than holding hands. She would be OK with it sometimes as a favour to me and a sense of obligation, but nothing more.

About 3 years ago I told her I couldn't manage like this. She agreed to change in this, and also to diet and care more for her appearance generally. And finally, not to gossip about our relationship behind my back, I'm a private person and I really dislike the feeling that problems in our marriage are public, always having to guess which people I know have had a chat with her and what she told them. I can't remember but she probably did put in some effort in the short term, but nothing lasting, and after say a few months these 3 issues (intimacy, diet, gossip) were back where they were.

About a year ago she stopped having any interest in any intimacy again for a prolonged period of about 6 months. She also stopped dieting at all until she was almost in the "morbidly obese" bracket. And finally she had a long chat with one of my best friends explaining all my shortcomings from her point of view. Coming after what I'd explained, I was pretty upset about the situation, though I tried to avoid judging her, it was tough to take in my stride and I got quite upset a few times.

Eventually she says I don't connect with her emotionally, and we start a process of going to a marriage counsellor. This wasn't something I'd wanted to do not really being a believer, besides I'm a private person, but this is what she said she needed. In counselling apart from things she wanted from me, I basically re-stated these 3 points as the thing which I needed from my side, which she agreed to do. She also went to see a doctor because of a list of symptoms like not sleeping etc, the doctor said they were all anxiety related and she should diet and exercise as this would help the root cause. We discussed this in marriage counselling and she agreed to exercise as well, as she understood that anxiety may have been making a big deal out of smallish things.

This bring us up to about 6 months ago. Since then once again she only kept her half of the bargain for a few months, although to be fair she did make a lot of progress on the intimacy front in that time and we were together 3x a week most weeks. About 2 months ago she got "burnt out" of the intimacy, which I got pretty fed up about after a couple weeks. After a few weeks like that she got back in the mood, but we'd only slept together once when I discover she's been talking about me to her Dad and to a psychologist who lives round the corner. I basically lost it a bit because I felt like I made it clear intimacy is something I need, you agreed to it, you got burnt out, I got fed up and then yes after about 2 weeks I started being cold to her and not my usual loving self. So why is it fair to complain about me being cold to your Dad, I'm sure leaving out anything from my point of view. And if our marriage counsellor isn't right for you, do you really need to choose the psychologist who I'm always bumping into, the worlds full of psychologists! Or to discuss it without me able to say anything. At the same time she had a minor surgical procedure at the top of her leg and needed me to change a dressing for her, she hadn't been dieting or exercising so I got quite freaked out at the sight. It was really off-putting (using restrained language) but I didn't say anything to her because I felt it would be un-gentlemanly (if that concept still exists).

It turns out that this psychologist is a big friend of her Dad's, and they want me to go to him to be evaluated for... autism! My wife says I've got an attachment difficulty because of an autism spectrum condition (or similar), and thats why I sometimes stop being loving, its like the loving switch gets turned off and she gets a cold distant husband for a few weeks.

Does this make sense to you? Obviously I don't much like the idea but that's not a reason to believe its not true... I'm very loving to our kids, probably more than she is, have great relationships with my parents siblings and friends, although I'm more introverted so I only have a few really good close friends. And I think the fact she stops the intimacy or gossips about me, especially when I've told her these are huge problems for me, is enough of a reason why a lot of men would go cold and distant, without needing psychological diagnoses. 

I don't want to go to this psychologist, don't much want to go to any psychologist for that matter... TBH I think she's come up with this as a way of distracting from her difficulties with intimacy and/or the issue that she doesn't really like me... She's tried diagnosing me previously, as depressed, addicted to computers, etc, but has changed her mind each time because no expert agreed with her once they'd met me. Also, when I'm cold and distant she goes into her anxiety mode and thinks that I'm always like that (which I'm not), so she thinks I have an emotional issue. 

I'm also not sure if there's any point continuing with the marriage counselling given that she hasn't kept what was agreed there (intimacy, diet, exercise, gossip)... Even if I could somehow be sure she'd take it more seriously in the future, I don't know if she's capable of overcoming her difficulty with being in the mood for intimacy, or her anxiety if thats the cause, as she's had plenty of chances. Or if there's any realistic chance she'll diet and exercise when she hasn't until now, I don't want to pressure her but on the other hand I don't know how I'll cope with a wife who looking at her puts me off.

[I'm not judging her, its not her fault if she doesn't like me or isn't an intimate type of person, or if she needs to talk about her life to her family to be able to cope, and its not for me to tell her to diet and exercise. But these are things I need].

Any thoughts? and thanks for reading!

[EDIT: for thread newcomers, there are a lot more details about the situation in Post #10 and Post #36]


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## PDXGuardsman (Nov 18, 2017)

georgieporgie said:


> So here's my story in brief. Sorry but even in brief its quite long, but if anyone has the patience to read it I'll be so grateful for any helpful thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow! Beware of folks who diagnose or suggest any form of psychological condition before a thorough evaluation. Maybe you do have ASD maybe you don’t...but I would suggest if you make an appointment, I recommend you see an impartial psychologist...maybe two different ones for an evaluation. As far as the gossip...I wouldn’t worry much unless you notice it effecting your relationships. I’m guessing many folks disregard stuff said about you...doesn’t mean it’s not hurtful that your wife does it. To me it sounds like you are trying to take the obvious “right” actions...marriage counseling...trying to be understanding, etc. Ultimately change is an inside job and you cannot change your wife...you can be encouraging, supportive and helpful. If you are not patient enough to deal with her as she is now...you have choices. I feel for ya! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Making excuses for her is getting you what?

You aren't getting any and you won't.

You're indecisive and will live this way until you aren't.

The only one who can help you is you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GP,

This is an interesting post. Most men would respond very negatively to a wife who: doesn’t like sex, doesn’t take care of herself physically and gains a LOT of weight quickly and gossips about him. 

That said, you have consciously chosen not to address any of the things she dislikes about you, and the ages of your kids. The former prevents a balanced response to your situation and the latter makes it impossible for anyone to gauge why you chose to have children with someone who you are totally incompatible with.




georgieporgie said:


> So here's my story in brief. Sorry but even in brief its quite long, but if anyone has the patience to read it I'll be so grateful for any helpful thoughts.
> 
> I'm in my early 30s, married 8 years with 2 kids in an arranged marriage. Wife was always uncomfortable with virtually all forms of intimacy, including even hugs etc, she wasn't at all keen on it if it involve more than holding hands. She would be OK with it sometimes as a favour to me and a sense of obligation, but nothing more.
> 
> ...


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

PDXGuardsman said:


> Wow! Beware of folks who diagnose or suggest any form of psychological condition before a thorough evaluation. Maybe you do have ASD maybe you don’t...but I would suggest if you make an appointment, I recommend you see an impartial psychologist...maybe two different ones for an evaluation.


The funny thing is, that psychologist has a fairly good reputation locally... I was very surprised that he would make suggestions just on the basis of my wife's description though.
Why do you think I should go to 2 different psychologists? I mean, what if say one says I've got ASD and one says I don't?



PDXGuardsman said:


> As far as the gossip...I wouldn’t worry much unless you notice it effecting your relationships. I’m guessing many folks disregard stuff said about you...doesn’t mean it’s not hurtful that your wife does it.


Well my wife's family is (quite rightly) 100% on my wife's side which makes family occasions quite unpleasant for me... I myself have never discussed the issues I have with her with anyone in my family, as I hate it when its done to me, and I'm sure it'll only make things worse. And I haven't taken it up with her father etc because I feel my wife needs to have them on her side to support her. But this does make me feel isolated, as everyone who knows about it thinks I'm being crazy.



PDXGuardsman said:


> I feel for ya!


Thanks!


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Marc878 said:


> Making excuses for her is getting you what?
> 
> You aren't getting any and you won't.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the honesty if a little brutal...

I'm indecisive because (1) we've two kids, and (2) she's a very kind nice person generally, which I should've said as it sheds light on the other issues, i.e. she doesn't gossip about me etc to be mean, and (3) I think she does want to improve and she did seem to be trying for a period.

That said, you're not wrong...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

georgieporgie said:


> Thanks for the honesty if a little brutal...
> 
> I'm indecisive because (1) we've two kids, and (2) she's a very kind nice person generally, which I should've said as it sheds light on the other issues, i.e. she doesn't gossip about me etc to be mean, and (3) I think she does want to improve and she did seem to be trying for a period.
> 
> That said, you're not wrong...


Not brutal. Realistic. You need honesty.

We all have can have control over ourselves. Indecision won't get you there.

I suspect the only one that can fix this is you. Take the lead


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

georgieporgie said:


> Wife was always uncomfortable with virtually all forms of intimacy, including even hugs etc, she wasn't at all keen on it if it involve more than holding hands. She would be OK with it sometimes as a favour to me and a sense of obligation, but nothing more.


You knew it from the start. You made the wrong choice. You already knew who she was.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

So what she is saying is that she is not attracted to you because of your suspected "autism" or in other words, your behaviour puts her off from having sex with you?

Maybe you should also check to see if there is someone else that she IS attracted to. She could be preparing the ground to leave by making sure that her family understands why she has to leave.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> This is an interesting post. Most men would respond very negatively to a wife who: doesn’t like sex, doesn’t take care of herself physically and gains a LOT of weight quickly and gossips about him.


Well I'm trying to be nice because she's a very kind nice person generally, (I should've said so as it sheds light on the other issues, i.e. she doesn't gossip about me etc to be mean), and I think she does want to improve and she did seem to be trying for a period. I'm just worried its too much for her and she never will be able to sort things out... 



MEM2020 said:


> That said, you have consciously chosen not to address any of the things she dislikes about you, and the ages of your kids. The former prevents a balanced response to your situation...


Yes you're right. I can only speculate why she dislikes me because I can't be sure what the real reason is. I did write that she says I don't connect with her emotionally, and that now she thinks I _can't _do so due to autism or whatever. But from my point of view I'm 100% sure that when she's being normal (like she was for a few months) that I'm nice and kind and loving to her. The mystery is that she agrees I was being all that... and when anyone tries to probe a bit more what the problem is, she just clams up. When *I *try to probe she accuses me of being too logical, and this (as the marriage counsellor explained to me privately) fuels her view that I can't connect with her emotionally, as there is some reason which can be understood on an emotional level, and me not getting it proves that she's right that I don't connect with her emotionally. The *counsellor *tried to probe without much success, and she now wants us to stop with him because he doesn't understand her and doesn't agree with the autism theory and basically sees things the same as me (although to be fair he isn't a full psychologist so can't rule out her theory completely).

When she's doing these things which I wrote about, I do admit I'm not very nice for her to be around. For example, she completely messed up arrangements for rota and our son got dropped off at home when I was expecting to pick him up from his friend, and then she didn't answer the door to him etc., and I kind of rubbed it in her face that she'd messed up, (which I wouldn't normally do! and yes I agree I shouldn't have done it). Again this makes her feel that the "autism switch" has gone on, I'm incapable of being loving at times, and that's why I got angry. Anything to avoid the simple explanation that its because she's making a point of pressing my buttons!

So in short I can't really explain why she dislikes me, I suspect she just doesn't like me/my personality, perhaps she wants someone more extroverted like her brothers, perhaps something else. She very much wants to avoid divorce, so she can't accept/give any explanation which doesn't leave hope for the marriage to be rescued. But I don't know what her problem is with me, that's why I didn't address this in my post.



MEM2020 said:


> ...and the latter makes it impossible for anyone to gauge why you chose to have children with someone who you are totally incompatible with.


The children are just 8 and nearly 6. We had them before the issues came to light. I know its crazy. Arranged marriages work very well 99% of the time, what happened in our case is a story for another time.
TBH I don't think the incompatibility is 2-ways, if she would be OK with me I'd be very happy with her. Its just the constant feeling of rejection which makes me fed up.

Thanks!


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

manfromlamancha said:


> So what she is saying is that she is not attracted to you because of your suspected "autism" or in other words, your behaviour puts her off from having sex with you?


In a nutshell... but see my reply to MEM2020 (Post #10) where I addressed this a bit more.



manfromlamancha said:


> Maybe you should also check to see if there is someone else that she IS attracted to. She could be preparing the ground to leave by making sure that her family understands why she has to leave.


Definitely not consciously... But possibly there is someone who she likes and without even realising it has been comparing me to him. Right now she's being very vocal that she wants to avoid divorce, but I think she's just clutching at straws


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GP,

I think your next move is simple. Painful, but simple. 

I would tell her:  I agree we aren’t emotionally connecting, we do however disagree about why. My view is that our disconnect is the direct result of my unhappiness with your behavior - towards me - about me - and with regard to your own self care. 

If you don’t like the way I act when you are making an effort to keep me happy - you have a couple choices. You can be specific about what it is you want less of and more of in terms of my conduct. Or you can continue to say that I’m not connecting with you while refusing to explain why. In the latter case - I will shrug and do nothing different. Not because I’m indifferent to you, but because I refuse to chase shadows. 

And fwiw I think the real issue is that you aren’t attracted to me, and simply with to avoid saying so as you wish to avoid a divorce. 





georgieporgie said:


> Well I'm trying to be nice because she's a very kind nice person generally, (I should've said so as it sheds light on the other issues, i.e. she doesn't gossip about me etc to be mean), and I think she does want to improve and she did seem to be trying for a period. I'm just worried its too much for her and she never will be able to sort things out...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> GP,
> 
> I think your next move is simple. Painful, but simple.
> 
> ...


Thank you. It is extremely validating to hear that others think the same as me!

With her having all these discussions about me without me, I begin to worry maybe she's right and there's something wrong with me. Maybe I'm being unreasonable in my expectations. Maybe I should unconditionally be kind and loving, even when she's pushing my buttons, and only then can I expect her to reciprocate.

So thanks for the re-assurance that I'm not completely crazy...

I have previously said to her, in the therapy sessions, exactly as you recommended. But when I ask her to be specific, she puts this down to an emotional vs logical thing: he's logical and can't understand emotions, so he needs specific examples. I'm emotional and don't work logically, and therefore I can't provide examples, and why should I have to when if he'd just get cured of his autism then he'd understand by himself. So asking her this just concretes the problem in her mind... I can't tell you how frustrating this is! Its like a crazy bottomless pit of quicksand, the more you struggle the deeper you go. And I have no idea how to get out of it without a divorce, yet we'd both really like to save the marriage. It would be a tragedy, just from the childrens point of view, for their parents to get divorced when no-one really knows why!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Her - lack of connection assertion combined with a flat refusal to provide examples - is a tactic. 

In a healthy relationship - the person asserting a negative explains the foundation for that viewpoint. 

And ummm - your analysis is flawless. To whit: You have strong positive emotional connections with kids/other family members and close friends. This means it isn’t you. Or more precisely it means that you are not on the spectrum. Introverts can have very good interpersonal skills. 

Her connection issue with you is something she likely fears sharing. For instance - if I’m not attracted to someone - absent a gun to my head I wouldn’t say why. Because it will hurt them and it won’t change anything. 

Her reasoning sort of goes like this: I tell him we aren’t connected - therefore I don’t want to have sex. And then I stonewall on why we aren’t connected without ever going near the high (maritally lethal) voltage lines related to sexual desire. 

The goal is to create confusion while keeping your partner at a (physically) safe distance. It’s a strategy that often buys someone years if not decades. The weight gain might have been a tactic in the realm of sexual avoidance. 

This isn’t fixable. Your options are simple: divorce or remain unhappy 

You might also get a vasectomy and let her know that when your youngest leaves in 12 years, you will be divorcing her. 




georgieporgie said:


> Thank you. It is extremely validating to hear that others think the same as me!
> 
> With her having all these discussions about me without me, I begin to worry maybe she's right and there's something wrong with me. Maybe I'm being unreasonable in my expectations. Maybe I should unconditionally be kind and loving, even when she's pushing my buttons, and only then can I expect her to reciprocate.
> 
> ...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Dear georgieporgie;

Usually, no always, it takes two to destroy a marriage. Think about it.

When I was in a sex starved marriage, I thought I was married to a frigid ice-queen. She wasn't. We were so hurting each other. Finally, I realized what I was doing wrong and changed myself so my wife felt loved and cherished again. Ultimately she with the help of a sex therapist marriage counselor for the two of us caused her to change herself and we rebuilt our marriage.

May I suggest you read the book by MW Davis, The Sex Starved Marriage and Chapman's book the 5 languages of love. Then do some serious introspection on your contributions to your current problems.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Young at Heart said:


> Dear georgieporgie;
> 
> Usually, no always, it takes two to destroy a marriage. Think about it.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right and I have been doing plenty of introspection, going to marriage therapist, reading marriage books (Men are from Mars, How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It, and others). Unfortunately it hasn't helped me understand in what way I'm contributing to the problem. Her inability to explain what I did wrong, to me or to the counsellor, (see all my other posts on this page) doesn't help. All she does is offer heavy psychological diagnoses which don't make much sense to me. 

Can I clarify, there's a difference between "Contributing to the problem" and "able to manage the problem". I.e. I could train myself to take everything in my stride, and unconditionally love her and give to her, and conceivably that would make a difference in her attitude as well, given enough time. There's this herb called chaste tree which I believe monks used to take to reduce their desire, so if they did it so can I, and the marriage will survive. However the question is, given the circumstances is it reasonable to expect this of me? If it can't reasonably be expected then I don't think you can say I'm _contributing_, even though I may be able to prevent the problem.

So, do you think if she can't explain what the problem is, and the therapist doesn't know after hours of sessions, that there is a reasonable expectation that I should nonetheless work it out? And if so, how? Don't get me wrong, I'm very serious about sorting this out, I just don't know what to do! I really do think I'm very nice to her when she's in a normal mood and I can't divine what she wants more than that. LMK if you still think those books you suggested may have more than the ones I already read and may be helpful and I'll happily give them a try...


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> You knew it from the start. You made the wrong choice. You already knew who she was.


Well it was an arranged marriage, so nothing happened before marriage, so I had no idea... If you're saying I shouldn't have agreed to an arranged marriage, that's because you (presumably) don't come from a culture where that's the norm. We met several times, and she looked nice at the time and is nice & kind, and I wanted to marry her on the basis of that. But I had no way of knowing about these other issues...


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Yes read the five languages of love.

Yes you have some very good points.

Yes you are probably contributing to the problem, and you can only change you.

Yes your wife is also contributing.

It is normal for children to talk to parents about their life. Even about their spouses.

Whether or not you figure out how to deal with your wife you should see a qualified professional about the possibility of being on the spectrum. If you are on the spectrum, often times close personal relationships are difficult. What may seem very close can actually be kinda distant.

Try a different marriage counselor if your wife doesn't like this one.

Intimacy is often effected by current marital issues. If she isn't feeling loved and cherished she isn't going to feel friendly. Rubbing a simple mistake in her face isn't helping your situation. Being unhappy can be a driver for overeating. Your wife should be talking to counselor herself. Yes in IC she will talk about her life and that includes you.

Simply divorcing will fix your wife problem. It won't necessarily fix intimacy issue. That's why I say get the spectrum checked. Know if you are telling the truth about not wanting to divorce, you two have an uphill battle. Getting her to air her issues is one. Though she seems to have clearly stated she doesn't feel you are connecting with her and you are emotionally distant.

Do you guys go on dates without the children? Do you spend at least 15 hours a week together? Do you spend time sharing about each other's day? What did you do on Valentine's Day? Her birthday? Your birthday?


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

georgieporgie said:


> I'm in my early 30s, married 8 years with 2 kids in an arranged marriage. Wife was always uncomfortable with virtually all forms of intimacy, including even hugs etc, she wasn't at all keen on it if it involve more than holding hands. She would be OK with it sometimes as a favour to me and a sense of obligation, but nothing more.
> 
> What is her physical response to different forms of intimacy? What is her emotional response?
> 
> ...


OP, what was your wife's childhood like? What kind of relationship does her mother and father have? What does her relationship with them look like? With her siblings?

What is your wife's primary emotion? Does she get excited often/easily?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I would be forced to say that your W appears to be looking for any excuse whatsoever not to be intimate with you, her H! Why, God only knows!

Given that she wants you to be examined by their friend, the in-house psychologist, while acquiescing to her family, is a bad idea!

If you're, indeed, going to be examined, please choose a psychologist who is totally independent and has no potential built-in bias! Get some recommendations from friends and associates and go to that one!

Truth be told, I cannot help but believe that it is your W who needs the psychological evaluation much rather than you!*


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Hey, I know such a psychologist 

Seriously, I'm not sure one can easily have a couple sessions with a total stranger and come up with a diagnosis.

It takes an awful lot of interaction and clinical history to even venture a diagnosis. Esp if you're an introvert geek engineer type like half my team. 

Also, someone familiar with the culture involved.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

anastasia6 said:


> Yes read the five languages of love.


Already downloaded ebook and on my kindle after previous recommendation... seems to be coming from christian point of view though? But will have a proper look later



anastasia6 said:


> It is normal for children to talk to parents about their life. Even about their spouses.


Yes... I'm happy my wife has her parents to support her, as I previously said... but I'd like to think that if I were in my FIL's situation, I'd encourage my daughter to consider her own issues, not just ring a psychologist friend based on a partial understanding and try to wring some diagnosis out of him... And she's been talking to waaaay more people than just her parents



anastasia6 said:


> Whether or not you figure out how to deal with your wife you should see a qualified professional about the possibility of being on the spectrum. If you are on the spectrum, often times close personal relationships are difficult. What may seem very close can actually be kinda distant.


Yes been thinking a lot about this possibility. But my wife agrees I am very loving to my kids. Does that rule out the possibility of ASD? Or are children parents and siblings different, and ASD could only affect relationship with wife?

Thanks a lot for your response!


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

anastasia6 said:


> Try a different marriage counselor if your wife doesn't like this one.


I could understand if she asked me to change and we sat down to discuss who would be better... only its a problem when she goes and chooses of her own accord a psychologist who she knows will be extremely uncomfortable for me!



anastasia6 said:


> Intimacy is often effected by current marital issues. If she isn't feeling loved and cherished she isn't going to feel friendly. Rubbing a simple mistake in her face isn't helping your situation. Being unhappy can be a driver for overeating.


You're right and I regret rubbing the mistake in her face. However while it is certainly true that intimacy is effected by current marital issues, the opposite is also true, i.e. current marital issues are often caused by issues with intimacy. And given that she can only find issues when she's not being intimate, I think its fair to assume its that way round. Is it reasonable in your opinion to expect a man who has consistently got this treatment over many years to continue being kind and giving unconditionally. Because I think most men will see things as I do... you get kind of fed up after so many years

Again, thanks a lot for your response... it's great to be getting different points of view, as the ones which look at it like me are supportive and validating, and the ones which challenge me give room for hope in the long run that sthg can be done!


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

anastasia6 said:


> Do you guys go on dates without the children? Do you spend at least 15 hours a week together? Do you spend time sharing about each other's day?


We do spend quality time together, but not as much as 15 hours without the children, that just wouldn't be possible. Its more like when she needs a lift somewhere when the kids are in school, or supper every night is just us when we talk about our days, and bedtime (when thats happening). You're right this is sthg to work on, though I don't think this alone will turn things round



anastasia6 said:


> What did you do on Valentine's Day? Her birthday? Your birthday?


Funny you mention that, birthdays actually came up with the marriage counsellor a few months ago. Even though my wife was "not in the mood" at her last birthday, I decided I'd be big and went and got her a whole load of presents way above my budget, expensive perfume, a groupon for a beauty treatment she wanted and so on. The idea was like you're saying, be nice to her unconditionally and maybe she'll be OK with intimacy [it didn't help]. My birthday she basically ignored.

The funny thing is that after discussing it with the therapist, I had another birthday, when *again* she basically ignored it. Not even a card, she didn't even tell the kids to make a card for Daddy. I wouldn't've brought this up since it seems rather petty, but as you mentioned birthdays... She did a few weeks later bake me a cake, but only after it came up with the therapist. Not sure what to make of this...

Thanks again...


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Keke24 said:


> What is her physical response to different forms of intimacy? What is her emotional response?


*Physically*, since sessions 6 months ago with her personal therapist which focused specifically on this, she very much seems to enjoy it. (Before that she didn't)
*Emotionally *is a different question. She tells me that still now, often afterwards she cries for hours. It seems really weird, but googling it it seems fairly common, there's something called "postcoital dysphoria". So not sure what that's all about, she's discussed it with her personal therapist but not shared with me other than saying its because I don't make an emotional connection with her.



Keke24 said:


> What is the relevance of the bolded above?


Just explaining she didn't do the dieting/exercising she'd agreed on, and that I found the results of this hard to say the least



Keke24 said:


> OP, what was your wife's childhood like? What kind of relationship does her mother and father have? What does her relationship with them look like? With her siblings?


I think she had a happy positive childhood, she has good relationships with her parents and with her siblings.
Her parents' relationship, while they seem to get along fine, just judging by their personalities I don't think there's much physical going on, but of course I don't really know. Her Mum does seem to have a serious anxiety issue though



Keke24 said:


> What is your wife's primary emotion? Does she get excited often/easily?


Yes she does get excited very easily about pretty small things. Why?


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

arbitrator said:


> I would be forced to say that your W appears to be looking for any excuse whatsoever not to be intimate with you, her H! Why, God only knows!
> 
> Given that she wants you to be examined by their friend, the in-house psychologist, while acquiescing to her family, is a bad idea!
> 
> ...


Yes I think you're right about getting a different psychologist. Its not just potential bias which he may be professional enough to overcome, and not just the fact that he's already half-formed his opinions before meeting me. Its also the fact that this is plain forum-shopping on her part by first finding a psychologist who says what she wants and then demanding to go to him. I'm just concerned because its become a whole big thing in her mind that only this particular one understands her and is professional enough to help. So even if she agrees to go to a different fellow, if she doesn't hear from them what she wants to she'll just start again until I go to her one. This has already happened previously...

What type of thing do you think my wife might need to be evaluated for? I don't know much about these things, what types of areas could be worth looking into?

Thanks!


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

john117 said:


> Seriously, I'm not sure one can easily have a couple sessions with a total stranger and come up with a diagnosis. It takes an awful lot of interaction and clinical history to even venture a diagnosis. Esp if you're an introvert geek engineer type like half my team.


Yes I think "introvert geek engineer" fits me quite well...
Why is it harder to diagnose that type of person?
Aren't there fixed tests which evaluate for autism, why would it take so long? Sorry if that's a naive question

Thank you!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's not a single test. Rather it's the presence or absence of various behaviors and the degree that "normal activities"  are impacted.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

john117 said:


> It's not a single test. Rather it's the presence or absence of various behaviors and the degree that "normal activities"  are impacted.


Thank you!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

georgieporgie said:


> Yes I think you're right about getting a different psychologist. Its not just potential bias which he may be professional enough to overcome, and not just the fact that he's already half-formed his opinions before meeting me. Its also the fact that this is plain forum-shopping on her part by first finding a psychologist who says what she wants and then demanding to go to him. I'm just concerned because its become a whole big thing in her mind that only this particular one understands her and is professional enough to help. So even if she agrees to go to a different fellow, if she doesn't hear from them what she wants to she'll just start again until I go to her one. This has already happened previously...
> 
> *What type of thing do you think my wife might need to be evaluated for? I don't know much about these things, what types of areas could be worth looking into?*
> 
> Thanks!


*Just the mere fact that she seems to be fastly shirking away from extending affection to you and will do just about anything to keep it from happening!*


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

arbitrator said:


> Just the mere fact that she seems to be fastly shirking away from extending affection to you and will do just about anything to keep it from happening!


Sorry let me clarify my question: what type of condition could cause these behaviours do you think?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> Sorry let me clarify my question: what type of condition could cause these behaviours do you think?


Lots of things.

If we're talking touch aversion, even Asperger's. 

Prior skeletons in the closet due to CSA

Oppression by males in the family or culture

Role models growing up

Expectations messed up due to culture or upbringing

Etc


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

georgieporgie said:


> Sorry let me clarify my question: what type of condition could cause these behaviours do you think?


*I think that my good friend, John, has definitely answered your question, and I'd be greatly inclined to agree!*


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

georgieporgie said:


> *Physically*, since sessions 6 months ago with her personal therapist which focused specifically on this, she very much seems to enjoy it. (Before that she didn't)
> *Emotionally *is a different question. She tells me that still now, often afterwards she cries for hours. It seems really weird, but googling it it seems fairly common, there's something called "postcoital dysphoria". *So not sure what that's all about, she's discussed it with her personal therapist but not shared with me other than saying its because I don't make an emotional connection with her.*
> 
> Why aren't you more interested in her crying after sex and her discussions with her personal therapist? Have you considered that your lacking effort to find out about these topics in detail would suggest to her that you don't think these are serious issues? Rather than relying on the simple explanation you got online, you need to ask your wife exactly what she's experiencing when she's crying. She could be reliving a past unwanted sexual experience and the sadness/hopelessness of that situation for all you know.
> ...





john117 said:


> Lots of things.
> 
> If we're talking touch aversion, even Asperger's.
> 
> ...


You need to find out more about your wife's childhood. Our childhood experiences and the relationships we're exposed to have a big impact on our behavior in relationships as adults. The fact that your wife feels the need to run to her parents/friends and they support this behavior is a big red flag. Your wife's attitude towards intimacy is a red flag. Her crying after sex is another red flag. Our personalities/temperament are not honed in a vacuum, the people we are today are the result of decades of conditioning. 

In addition to john's list above, alexithymia was a consideration hence the question re does she get excited easily. People with alexithymia have a difficulty experiencing emotions, verbalizing emotions and getting sexual pleasure from sex. 

The prior skeletons in the closet due to csa is a common explanation for the intimacy avoidance that you describe with your wife. Either way, it would behoove you to find out as much as you can about your wife's childhood and the dynamics of her parents' relationship. It would not be a coincidence if their marriage also suffers from intimacy issues.

Was sex painful for her prior to the sessions 6 months ago?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Alexithymia may be just a signal or symptom of an underlying issue. In general emotional regulation is messed up so...

Having said that, anyone in her family having any mental health issue? Developmental issue?


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

john117 said:


> Lots of things.
> If we're talking touch aversion, even Asperger's.
> Prior skeletons in the closet due to CSA
> Oppression by males in the family or culture
> ...





Keke24 said:


> Why aren't you more interested in her crying after sex and her discussions with her personal therapist? Have you considered that your lacking effort to find out about these topics in detail would suggest to her that you don't think these are serious issues? Rather than relying on the simple explanation you got online, you need to ask your wife exactly what she's experiencing when she's crying. She could be reliving a past unwanted sexual experience and the sadness/hopelessness of that situation for all you know.
> 
> You need to find out more about your wife's childhood. Our childhood experiences and the relationships we're exposed to have a big impact on our behavior in relationships as adults. The fact that your wife feels the need to run to her parents/friends and they support this behavior is a big red flag. Your wife's attitude towards intimacy is a red flag. Her crying after sex is another red flag. Our personalities/temperament are not honed in a vacuum, the people we are today are the result of decades of conditioning.
> 
> ...





john117 said:


> Alexithymia may be just a signal or symptom of an underlying issue. In general emotional regulation is messed up so...
> Having said that, anyone in her family having any mental health issue? Developmental issue?


Thanks a lot for all your feedback! As the comments overlap I'll address them all in one go.

I don't think its any type of *touch aversion*, she's very happy to hug the kids and her nephews and nieces etc.

I understand *Alexithymia *has been ruled out as she gets excited easily, also she does get _physical _pleasure from intimacy.

*CSA *is the interesting one. This was the express reason I asked her to go to her personal therapist 6 months ago. My wife tells me she discussed it with her, and that the therapist concluded that there was no overt abuse (although all this means is that that's what my wife told the therapist, so for all I know she may just be unwilling to come to terms with it).

While the therapist said there was no overt abuse, there were several issues which could have caused problems. Firstly, that she had never had anyone explain to her what marriage was all about in a positive way (I literally can't believe it, what were her parents thinking!). Secondly and more worryingly, when she was about 15 she had an older girl giving her "the talk", and my wife was very disturbed about it at the time, thinking it was disgusting and telling other girls not to speak to that girl. So I can well imagine that having gotten a very negative impression of intimacy, which was then never corrected before marriage, and then she was thrown in the deep end with me being totally unaware of all this, could have been very traumatic for her. As I told the marriage counsellor, it was several months before we could fully consummate the marriage, at the time she said it was because she found it extremely painful physically, which I think can happen in some women, although in hindsight perhaps other explanations are more likely. She spent most of the first year of marriage extremely homesick, as we weren't in the same country as her parents, and then morning sickness as she became pregnant; again, in hindsight it may well have been more than homesickness and morning sickness. (I don't think there was any physical pain after the consummation got done, apart from when she would get a sore).

However, she is supposed to have dealt with these issues with her therapist, and her attitude did change a lot outwardly. Its just that after five months that balloon got popped, and then I found out that all along she'd still been crying afterwards. I suppose it could be residual effects which haven't been cleared up 100%, however my wife adamantly says the problem now is nothing to do with that, but because I don't connect to her emotionally.

Believe me I am very interested in her conversations with her personal therapist and I'd be very interested to hear what goes on in them, however I'm not invited, this is not for lack of trying, I've sent the therapist dozens of emails and she never replies. All I know is what I've been told, that a) no overt abuse, b) negative view of intimacy has now been cleared up, c) any problems remaining now (crying and the complete switch off) must be because of my inability to connect emotionally. Unfortunately after a bit the personal therapist stopped being willing to talk to me and tell me what she'd found out, presumably some ethical problem that she has to only be my wife's counsellor. So this is what I've heard from my wife, that this is what the therapist has decided, based on what my wife told this therapist... Of course its entirely possible that my wife finally opened up to this counsellor that there was abuse, which is why she can no longer speak to me, and my wife doesn't want me to know about it, which is quite understandable.

If you think these waters are murky, read on. One of my wife's sisters has apparently been in therapy for serious anxiety issues, and apparently she and her therapist ended up with a narrative in which when she was younger the way her father looked at her made her feel that he had inappropriate feelings towards her. She then went to this psychologist who I'm being told to go to (the one who's a good friend of my father in law), who rubbished the whole thing, that wasn't her father's intention at all, and this psychologist is considered senior to the first one. I know this will immediately seem extremely suspicious, but to be honest I have trouble believing things like that of my father in law, or that this psychologist is biased enough to cover up something so serious. Am I being naive? Perhaps I'm being irresponsible by not trying to be in touch with the first therapist. BUT at the very least this does show a very serious issue. I mean, what girl who grows up in a normal healthy way suspects her father of having such thoughts about her!

Re any mental health issue in her family, apart from this sister, her mother is also extremely anxious, getting very worried about say waking up neighbours by not-very-loud singing, or about cleanliness, using anti-bacterial wipes to clean a dryer in the kitchen and then cleaning it again shortly afterwards, etc. For a family which pushes so much towards psychologists I'm unsure why they haven't done anything about this... my wife agrees with me on this one that her mum should really go for help with this.


So basically after thinking this all through it seems to me there are 3 possibilities:

*1) the worst*, that she was abused and doesn't want to admit it to me. This would explain all her issues (crying, avoidance), why her therapist is unwilling to talk to me, what happened with her sister, and what Keke's pointed out that "the fact that your wife feels the need to run to her parents/friends", and secondly that "they support this behavior is a big red flag" as naturally they would have to support her.

*2) the medium*, that she had no positive role model in intimacy from her parents, who I'm sure never touched each other in front of the kids, or nothing which gave her a positive attitude towards intimacy, rather she had this experience with her older friend, and then she landed in marriage which only compounded things as she didn't explain that it was hard for her. She also has a family background (sister and mother) of anxiety issues, she herself has been told by a doctor to exercise because of her own anxiety issues; this may make things worse as she stresses irrationally about how I might be unkind to her. And although the therapist apparently has worked through this, perhaps she hasn't been completely successful. This would explain her personal issues (crying, avoidance), but none of the other items.

*3) The best*: She's absolutely fine, the problem lies with me because I'm autistic. This is the best because the solution is simplest: I go to be evaluated and hopefully there's something which can change things (is there?)


Soooo.... any thoughts?


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Is there any clear way to sort out autism? if an evaluation would indicate that that is the problem


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Most situations aren't only one thing.

There is no reason you or her have to go to the family friend.

While I'm positive there is a whole website of men that will side with you and they'll add to divorce her now. You've stated you don't want that.

You've stated when you first got married that she had a negative view of sex yet you two still had it, you focus on it, she cries and says she doesn't feel emotionally connected. This would make most women feel like nothing but a hole for your use. Resentment would build, disgust. While I would encourage you to explore both hers and your mental health, you should also consider she actually is telling you the truth, she doesn't want to be intimate because she doesn't feel connected. That can be problems with her or/and you.

For her birthday you went overboard hoping it would lead to intimacy. In languages of love, are gifts her thing? BTW one who wasn't connected to you and thought you only viewed her as a sex object could think you were trying to buy sex. 

Final food for thought. While you may not have said anything I guarantee she probably could tell about your disgust and her leg. Whether she took it as you being upset because you had to take care of her or if she took it as you not liking her leg either will interfere with connection and intimacy. Most women including thin ones worry about being judged during sex on either looks, response, ****ty, prude, taking too long to O or ... Take your pick.

I'd like to say I am in no way saying this is your fault or her fault. I'm saying if you come here and only bask in the men telling you she's terrible or that you should have sex whenever you want and she's crazy you'll never get to the truth which most likely somewhere in the middle. You two have to figure out a way to communicate. Trying multiple times to get her therapists to give you the scoop isn't good. In the states the therapist isn't supposed to give away anything without permission. I understand your desire for information but dozens of emails is bordering on controlling


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

OP:

I agree with others that you see the problem clearly.

What Mem suggested is absolutely necessary. Her need to obfuscate her reasons, combined with her want to remain married, is a perfect storm (or boxing you in) to remain exactly as is.

In order to alter the trajectory, you must break out of the box...or kick over the proverbial apple cart. Tell her she can communicate her grievances, or communicate with a divorce attorney.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

anastasia6 said:


> You've stated when you first got married that she had a negative view of sex yet you two still had it, you focus on it, she cries and says she doesn't feel emotionally connected. This would make most women feel like nothing but a hole for your use. Resentment would build, disgust.


Look I understand that she might feel that way. (Its basically what I meant in my previous post #36 in option 2). But its completely unfair and unreasonable. At the time I had no idea it was hard for her, she only told me about all this years later. I accepted her explanations at the time that she was feeling homesick etc. Just like any man in a healthy marriage, I was trying to build a relationship through physical intimacy (as well as by being nice to her), to characterise this as her being "a hole for my use" (as you put it so eloquently) is just wrong.

I understand all you're saying is that that is how she may feel, not that its the truth of the matter. However I would hope she can see past the admittedly traumatic experience it must have been, to admit that its not my fault and that I wasn't simply trying to use her, I was trying to connect with her. Yes it will be hard for her to do this, but that's what she has a personal therapist for. She's been at it now with this therapist for months, if it isn't being successful then is there any realistic chance it will be?

The bottom line is that as much as it isn't her fault and it really is hard for her and for good reason, and as much as we both want to save the marriage, however if there is no realistic reason to expect improvement, I will just go crazy!


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

anastasia6 said:


> For her birthday you went overboard hoping it would lead to intimacy. In languages of love, are gifts her thing? BTW one who wasn't connected to you and thought you only viewed her as a sex object could think you were trying to buy sex.


Clarification: intimacy was *completely* not on the cards on her birthday. I wasn't hoping for it - I was trying to be nice. Even if gifts aren't her main love language, its not as binary as that book makes out: I think quality time is her LL, but she still likes getting presents...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Then stop both and see what happens.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

anastasia6 said:


> Final food for thought. While you may not have said anything I guarantee she probably could tell about your disgust and her leg. Whether she took it as you being upset because you had to take care of her or if she took it as you not liking her leg either will interfere with connection and intimacy. Most women including thin ones worry about being judged during sex on either looks, response, ****ty, prude, taking too long to O or ... Take your pick.


Yes I get that she doesn't want to feel judged. However lets divide all people in the world into 2 groups:
1) those who want to be judged favourably about whatever, and therefore work to make sure they're someone who can be judged that way
2) those who want to be judged favourably about whatever, but don't want to work, and instead complain about how unfair it is that they're being judged. The more they do this, the more they're judged, and the more they complain.

[Clarification: we're not talking about an eating disorder or medical inability to exercise, just not wanting to.]

Now with people in group 2. I'm not judging them. Maybe it is indeed harder for them to work. HOWEVER from the point of view of someone trying to save a marriage, and this is contingent on them being willing to sort out these issues. This doesn't give much room for optimism does it?

Unless you have a magic way of motivating her! The point is its all very nice understanding where she's coming from, but sometimes you need results, and if she can't even tell me whats wrong in a clear unambiguous way then how are we ever going to achieve results?

But I really do appreciate your posts like I said last time


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Well it sounds like you are actually seeking approval to give up. 

So give up.

Just be honest with yourself and her. That you aren't willing to continue to pursue possible resolution. 

It's ok. Not everyone is meant to be with the one their with.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

anastasia6 said:


> Well it sounds like you are actually seeking approval to give up.


No.

I'm seeking a realistic way to make the marriage work.

*Re her needs:* I'm happy to work. I have been working. E.g. I've now worked through 3-4 chapters of that love languages book you recommended. I can see things to improve in. But I can't see anything I can realistically point at and say, if I change this everything will be better. My wife isn't giving me any indication of what she considers the problem other than the vaguest of statements, its like she's a politician. She's stopping the marriage therapy, not in favour of going to a different therapist where we both work together, but in favour of trying to pin some highly doubtful diagnosis on me.

*Re my needs:* she has tried, but nothing has lasted in the long term so far. She has always got burnt out of it sooner or later. Now you may well say that's because of her needs which aren't satisfied. In which case I refer you to the paragraph above.

The only realistic analysis of the situation I can see is that I'm simply incompatible for her and she hasn't the courage to say so; or there is some psychological issue in one of us. This may be autism on my part, as my wife thinks, and I am considering going to be evaluated for it, although I think this highly unlikely given that I have very good relationships with my kids etc. Or it may be due to abuse-like experience in my wife's past, see post #36, but she has been going to therapy for this specifically and so far nothing has happened (AFAIK). So at this stage pursuing either of these options seems a bit like grasping at straws.

So I'm not seeking approval to give up, but neither am I being blindly optimistic. Do you really think my position is illogical?


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

john117 said:


> Then stop both and see what happens.


Do you mean stop both the presents and the quality time? She has got a birthday coming up soon... but are you sure its a good idea, how would you expect her to react, and where would that lead us?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> Do you mean stop both the presents and the quality time? She has got a birthday coming up soon... but are you sure its a good idea, how would you expect her to react, and where would that lead us?


She won't like it any more than you don't like her attitude... That's the point.

Or, a token $20 gift and Costco pizza. Even worse.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Just wanted to chime in on a specific point here.

Why, georgieporgie, were you not prepared for marriage and intimacy? Why did you not know that your future bride would require an emotional connection in order to feel safe enough for sexual intimacy? Why did your family fail to teach you how to be emotionally loving and supportive? How could they send you off to marriage expecting you to just...figure it out that your bride would need this emotional connection through loving eye contact, affectionate touch, kind words of affirmation, small tokens to show your care and concern, moments of light hearted laughter?

Why is the failure to routinely engage in sex assigned to your wife’s emotional fragility rather than your emotional constipation?


You’re seeking help because you want to have sex regularly and your wife isn’t cooperating. Yet she has been seeking help for her lack of emotional connection to her husband.

Meanwhile she’s getting rejection signals from you about her appearance. So now she’s supposed to forget that she doesn’t feel anything toward you except for rejection and still spread her legs regularly?

Several people, professionals, have suggested my husband might be on the Aspergers spectrum and I had tried very hard to reject this suggestion because it would have meant he was essentially incapable of the kind of range of emotions that makes an emotional connection and at the time I still had hope for my marriage. 

The point I’m making for your marriage is that you don’t get to expect regular sex if you cannot figure out how to be emotionally present and supportive. Period.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Also, having a strong positive emotional connection to your kids or other family members does not translate to a strong emotional connection to your spouse.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The latest 'catch' phrase, 'trap phrase' is 'they are on the spectrum', they show signs of autism.

I too, have used this diagnosis. 

The things is:
It seems:

That the symptoms of this condition are commonly shown by common men and women.

You are 'NOT' Autistic. 
You are logical. 
You are introverted and sensitive.

All normal human conditions. Within the norms of behavior.

She may be projecting.
She is logical.
She is depressive.
She is cold....normally so.

However, I also see your marriage as lacking chemistry.

She is obese because she is substituting food for her... absent love, her lack of having a loving feeling for you.

She does not want a divorce because she knows that finding another man, 'equal or better' is going to be 'near' impossible.
With her being obese, not enjoying sex, not enjoying intimacy, she knows her real-world-worth to any future man. 

This marriage was arranged. Her next one will likely not be so, so perfectly set up.

Her new dowry will be what she offered you, ice cubes on rice.

She knows this. She has given up because you have given up. 
Had you remained silent, not pushing for a closer partnership, she would bob along.
She would float through this marriage, her a cork, waggle-wobbling, forward on a mostly calm stream.

I cannot emphasize enough. 
You two are incompatible, always will be.

Move on. 
Move on or rust in place.

Your nose out of joint.
Frozen, thus, this way.



The Host-

Methinks, she could do better if she found a soulmate.
But in her present state, her heavy hearted state, heavy bodied state, that is a lead pipe dream.

She can certainly find a man. But, is the finding worth the catching?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Or she's obese to ensure you're not interested.

It's not like s-wife's rocket science PhD cousin didn't fall for it...

Anon Pink made some good points about your side of the equation but when the scale - pun intended - is so much on her side it's hard to even want to work things through.

Once again, root cause analysis is your friend.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Yeah and the root cause is arranged marriages and patriarchy. 

She knew she’d have to spread her legs but he failed to know about...feeeee...lllllings.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I know very well a hundred or more arranged marriage couples and it's not quite like the above. It can happen.

Patriarchy... Maybe. Culture overall.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

And the culture would be....?

Winning the lottery doesn’t mean buying lottery tickets will create wealth.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Culture is strange. It creates a lot of expectations but watch out if you hit an outlier.

Culture also supresses uniformity and reinforces stereotypical behaviors. If you're an outlier and not in line with the program, woe be to the person you're with...


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

It seems like you have a bunch of hurdles to overcome.

You indicate your wife is overweight, what is your body like? In the mirror, is it a body that most people would want to have sex with?? I can say positively that when i started putting on muscle my wife started to initiate sex more. She also joined a gym as if to say "you cant out-sexy me"

The truth is.. she either wants to have sex with you or she doesn't. Forget all the words and reasons she gives you. She might think she wants emotions from you, but if Brad Pitt were to walk into the house and ask her to undress she would most likely be naked before he finished the sentence.... yet no emotional connection? He doesn't even know her name...

A critical factor: *You cannot change other people* You can only change yourself. So let me ask you... what have you done to change yourself for the better? As soon as you realize that you can only improve yourself, AND YOU start to actually do it, will things change in your life. With or without your wife.

I recommend reading "no more mr. nice guy" - I think you need some boundaries and some eye opening perspectives on covert contracts and some self worth. It takes 2.5 hours to read and will change your outlook. PM me when your ready for your next book


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Culture is strange. It creates a lot of expectations but watch out if you hit an outlier.
> 
> Culture also supresses uniformity and reinforces stereotypical behaviors. If you're an outlier and not in line with the program, woe be to the person you're with...


Completely agree.

Unfortunately, culture of the patriarchal kind also suppresses equality which can be evidenced across the board but specifically in expectation management. To wit: “He works hard, he comes home every night sober, what more do you want?”


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Anon Pink said:


> Just wanted to chime in on a specific point here.
> 
> Why, georgieporgie, were you not prepared for marriage and intimacy? Why did you not know that your future bride would require an emotional connection in order to feel safe enough for sexual intimacy? Why did your family fail to teach you how to be emotionally loving and supportive? How could they send you off to marriage expecting you to just...figure it out that your bride would need this emotional connection through loving eye contact, affectionate touch, kind words of affirmation, small tokens to show your care and concern, moments of light hearted laughter?
> 
> ...


Hi AnonPink, thanks for posting.

I absolutely agree with you in principal that a husband has to have an emotional connection with his wife. Actually not just for his wifes sake as you imply, but for his own sake as well.

The thing is, I do try to do those things you've mentioned. I'm certainly not perfect, but I am open to improving; we were in the middle of going to marriage therapy when my wife decided she'd rather have me diagnosed as autistic. I've been reading this book about different love languages someone recommended earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure which of my posts you managed to read, but I think a central part of many of them is the fact that my wife seems unable to specify anything particular I did or which I should have done which she would have liked. She just generally says I'm not making an emotional connection. Don't you agree its fair for me to ask for more specific examples to guide me, and that her inability to provide them is puzzling.

I think your view may be a bit slanted, because I'm at least trying with the emotional stuff here, whereas she is completely trampling on the things we agreed I needed, and yet you say that I'm the one who's rejecting her. Maybe her refusal to be intimate with me is a rejection of me? In fact why don't you go the whole hog and say I'm the one who's rejecting her, because I'm not accepting the fact that she doesn't want to be intimate with me.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Anon Pink said:


> Several people, professionals, have suggested my husband might be on the Aspergers spectrum and I had tried very hard to reject this suggestion because it would have meant he was essentially incapable of the kind of range of emotions that makes an emotional connection and at the time I still had hope for my marriage.


I'm really sorry to hear that. What you're saying sounds similar to what my wife thinks is the problem. So do you mind if I ask, weren't the professionals able to come up with a definite diagnosis? And is this what caused your marriage not to work in the end? Weren't there any treatments available?

Sorry if these are too personal, feel free not to answer... & thanks again for posting


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Anon Pink said:


> Also, having a strong positive emotional connection to your kids or other family members does not translate to a strong emotional connection to your spouse.


Agreed. For example, someone may simply not like his spouse whereas he does like his kids.

However if the cause of the lack of connection is an _inability _to form emotional attachments due to autism or similar, then wouldn't you expect that to include all emotional attachments? As he just hasn't got that ability.

From your other post it sounded like you have experience of this type of thing so please could you share it.


----------



## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> You are 'NOT' Autistic.
> You are logical.
> You are introverted and sensitive.
> 
> ...


Wow I see TAM has a resident poet! love the "ice cubes on rice" image...

I don't think she's projecting - she's generally a kindhearted warm person, far more emotional than logical, hardly ever depressive. But your description of me is pretty spot on


----------



## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Anon Pink said:


> Yeah and the root cause is arranged marriages and patriarchy.
> 
> She knew she’d have to spread her legs but he failed to know about...feeeee...lllllings.


OK I agree semi-arranged marriages aren't perfect. (By semi-arranged I mean that we were suggested for each other and had a few meetings before getting engaged). But they do work out well for the vast majority AFAIK.

I'll also accept I'm not the best when it comes to feelings, though I don't think I'm complete rubbish either. But does it occur to you that in the context of a semi-arranged marriage you could argue the opposite: Boy and girl turn up for meetings and chat about life goals, experiences etc. They find out more from each others' friends. They get a pretty good feel of each others personality, whether they want to spend their life with someone like that. But they will have no idea what the other is like in bed. So when they get engaged, they are effectively saying I love your personality, its just right for me.

What I'm trying to say is that my wife knew I was a logical more than emotional person when we got engaged. I didn't act all emotionally understanding on our dates, I was 100% my logical self. And she agreed to be married to that person, which kind of means she's OK to "spread her legs" (to use your flattering phrase) for him.

So if you're going to make arguments like this based on what was known when we got engaged, I think the argument is the opposite. But its moot because the question is can she cope with me now, not whether she should've known then. Just saying


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> Hi AnonPink, thanks for posting.
> 
> I absolutely agree with you in principal that a husband has to have an emotional connection with his wife. Actually not just for his wifes sake as you imply, but for his own sake as well.
> 
> ...


Unquestionably my view is slanted. It is impossible for any of us to offer a non biased perspective because they are all based on personal experience relative to similarities.

I’d suggest that you attempt, and I know it’s hard, to avoid quantitative judgments on the respective levels of effort. Is what you’re doing enough for her? Is what she’s doing enough for you? 

I do understand your frustration because she cannot provide examples for you, particularly since gaining an overall emotional tone from her is beyond your current realm. I would offer that there are ways to get to know her emotional state and if you’re in tune with her you would notice them. Much like if you are in tune with your children you know when they feel loved (note that feeling loved Should not be confused with you taking good care of them) and when they feel sidelined, unimportant, dismissed and marginalized. Further, you should be aware that personal insight comes easily to some and not to others and personal insight should not be confused with ability to experience a range of emotions. IOW, I feel how I feel but cannot fully explain what it is or why I do. And this is why therapy is extremely helpful because, among other things, it teaches one how to identify what they feel and then identify why they feel. The short answer to “don’t you think it’s fair...” is fairs got nothing to do with it.

Also, I read several of your posts, but not all.




georgieporgie said:


> I'm really sorry to hear that. What you're saying sounds similar to what my wife thinks is the problem. So do you mind if I ask, weren't the professionals able to come up with a definite diagnosis? And is this what caused your marriage not to work in the end? Weren't there any treatments available?
> 
> Sorry if these are too personal, feel free not to answer... & thanks again for posting


My fingers already hurt from too much typing... :wink2: the professionals involved were involved with me, not with us. No one was involved with us in a nondirect capacity. No definite diagnosis. Am not aware of any treatments though that one guy who was indirectly involved with both of us suggested my husband be taught to identify feelings/emotions in general and then learn to apply those words to his personal experiences. Never happened.

In the end my marriage failed because expectations could not be managed. I expected more and he expected me to expect less.




georgieporgie said:


> Agreed. For example, someone may simply not like his spouse whereas he does like his kids.
> 
> However if the cause of the lack of connection is an _inability _to form emotional attachments due to autism or similar, then wouldn't you expect that to include all emotional attachments? As he just hasn't got that ability.
> 
> From your other post it sounded like you have experience of this type of thing so please could you share it.


No, emotional attachment to a spouse is much more intimate and nuanced than emotional attachment to children/family.

They call it a spectrum because there is a wide spectrum of symptoms and “emotional attachment” is a broad category with its own range of severity and symptoms.

I don’t believe my husband is on the spectrum. I believe he is the product of his FOO and religion. I believe he is also a selfish man who hides his selfishness in sophisticated ways so that only those who are intimately involved, such as a wife, will see how the _thoughtful_ things are for show or to tic a tally mark on the scale of relative effort.

When it comes to my husband, and men like him, Meatloaf said it best “I’ll do anything for love but I won’t do that.”


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> OK I agree semi-arranged marriages aren't perfect. (By semi-arranged I mean that we were suggested for each other and had a few meetings before getting engaged). But they do work out well for the vast majority AFAIK.


Is there a culture that endorses arranged marriages that isn’t patriarchal? A culture that arranges marriages thinks nothing of the emotional connection and chemistry two people need to create a successful marriage. And who is the MOST affected by the lack of chemistry or connection? The one that traditionally has no recourse if her marriage fails, is judged harshly by the rest of the culture, and has historically been marginalized and dismissed. So anyone who claims that arranged marriages are successful is gazing through a lease that only counts one perspective as important.



> I'll also accept I'm not the best when it comes to feelings, though I don't think I'm complete rubbish either. But does it occur to you that in the context of a semi-arranged marriage you could argue the opposite: Boy and girl turn up for meetings and chat about life goals, experiences etc. They find out more from each others' friends. They get a pretty good feel of each others personality, whether they want to spend their life with someone like that. But they will have no idea what the other is like in bed. So when they get engaged, they are effectively saying I love your personality, its just right for me.


Show a child a nickle and dime and ask the child to pick which one they want. They always go for the nickel because they don’t know the value of the smaller dime.

My husband and I get along great. We can do home projects together and not ever fight. And yet....




> What I'm trying to say is that my wife knew I was a logical more than emotional person when we got engaged. I didn't act all emotionally understanding on our dates, I was 100% my logical self. And she agreed to be married to that person, which kind of means she's OK to "spread her legs" (to use your flattering phrase) for him.
> 
> So if you're going to make arguments like this based on what was known when we got engaged, I think the argument is the opposite. But its moot because the question is can she cope with me now, not whether she should've known then. Just saying


Most women know that men are different and that includes different emotions. I used that flattering term because it really painted the emotional picture didn’t it? What emotions do you think a wife feels when she feels that spreading her legs is what her husband complains of? Feels cheap? Used? Unimportant? Unloved? So you can experience a range of emotions but only if someone paints the image for you first.

I also knew my husband was emotionally steady. But I didn’t know he was emotionally constipated. In the beginning, we seek to see the best. But then the blinders come off and what we thought was one thing is actually something else.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> Wow I see TAM has a resident poet! love the "ice cubes on rice" image...


It's actually a Python program


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> Is there a culture that endorses arranged marriages that isn’t patriarchal? A culture that arranges marriages thinks nothing of the emotional connection and chemistry two people need to create a successful marriage. *And who is the MOST affected by the lack of chemistry or connection? The one that traditionally has no recourse if her marriage fails, is judged harshly by the rest of the culture, and has historically been marginalized and dismissed. So anyone who claims that arranged marriages are successful is gazing through a lens that only counts one perspective as important.
> *
> Show a child a nickle and dime and ask the child to pick which one they want. They always go for the nickel because they don’t know the value of the smaller dime.
> 
> ...


You took a long time, to first think this through, then to type it out. Out of your system.

Not out of your system, extend it from feelings, to words, to type.

The pain still remains. 

Your post saddens me. More so than others.....do.

Why?

It gives the readers, male or female, little or no hope.

The men are from Mars, the women are from Venus, shtick.
Or, so it seems.

None, very few are happy, few are content with each other. 

Men want sexual release, women want stress release, want their feelings rubbed smooth, assuaged.
Men are boorish, women fickle flickers.
Both are right, both are wrong...

Wrong for each other....

It seems......
One has to change, to bend, the other, has to soften their tone.

For this to happen.... and Meatloaf hinted at this.....it has to worth the price of admission.
The price to enter your woman's chasm, her fissure of wonders.

Or, so it seems....

Men want to plunge into the pool and check the temperature later. Mea Culpa.

Some women are finely tuned recipes.

You must pre-heat her oven 
Rub on the spices, not missing any crack or cranky cranny. 
Lick to make sure not too much salt runneth out of her pot lid apertures.
Peek through her glassy doors, her eyes.

Put in the roost.
Keep the roast basted and moist.
Make sure it does not dry out.
Watch for bubbling and sputtering, a good sign that 'her' cooking, her done is near.
Keep the thermometer in the beef.
When done, it leaks copious juice in her catch pan.

Pull it out and cool it off.

Hope you passed the taste test.
A test of technique, a test of will power.
Hopefully, it 'won't cow-her'.

And hope for the best, hope you passed the test.
The test of time.
Every time, Time Immemorial.

I wrote all this crap and I am still sad. 
It is so hard..it just is.





The Host-


----------



## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Anon Pink said:


> I do understand your frustration because she cannot provide examples for you, particularly since gaining an overall emotional tone from her is beyond your current realm. I would offer that there are ways to get to know her emotional state and if you’re in tune with her you would notice them. Much like if you are in tune with your children you know when they feel loved (note that feeling loved Should not be confused with you taking good care of them) and when they feel sidelined, unimportant, dismissed and marginalized. Further, you should be aware that personal insight comes easily to some and not to others and personal insight should not be confused with ability to experience a range of emotions. IOW, I feel how I feel but cannot fully explain what it is or why I do. And this is why therapy is extremely helpful because, among other things, it teaches one how to identify what they feel and then identify why they feel.


So if I understand correctly you're making 2 points:
1) I could/should be able to read her emotional state better, so she wouldn't need to explain what had upset her or what she wants more of, just as I easily read my children's emotional state
2) My wife may find it hard to have insight into her own emotions which is why she can't explain what they are or what caused them.

The thing is I think I can tell when my wife is feeling loved or when she's feeling dismissed. I may not be the most sensitive to these things, but I'm not completely blind. When I said I want my wife to provide examples and she can't, what I was trying to say is that I think I was being good and attuned to her emotions and I think she was happy all the time, yet suddenly bam she pops.


----------



## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Anon Pink said:


> My fingers already hurt from too much typing... :wink2:
> 
> No, emotional attachment to a spouse is much more intimate and nuanced than emotional attachment to children/family.
> 
> ...


Sorry about your fingers, much appreciated!

So you're saying its conceivable that I'm capable of a basic attachment to kids, but the nuanced sort is too much for me. OK I can accept that theoretically. I certainly hope that there's something which can be done to help if that is the case, or it will just be a colossal waste of time and effort!

FOO? whats that? and what religion (if I may ask), I wasn't aware of any which preach selfishness?


----------



## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Anon Pink said:


> Is there a culture that endorses arranged marriages that isn’t patriarchal? A culture that arranges marriages thinks nothing of the emotional connection and chemistry two people need to create a successful marriage. And who is the MOST affected by the lack of chemistry or connection? The one that traditionally has no recourse if her marriage fails, is judged harshly by the rest of the culture, and has historically been marginalized and dismissed. So anyone who claims that arranged marriages are successful is gazing through a lease that only counts one perspective as important.


OK I'm going to accept your suggestion that there's some kind of causal link between patriarchal societies and arranged marriages. I won't quibble that the vast majority of societies historically have been patriarchal so we don't have much chance to see what a matriarchal or equal society would do. Or that the trend in the modern day away from these two things are two separate results of general more liberal values.

Where I'm going to challenge you is here: If it were the case that each marriage was arranged by the evil patriarchs/patricians, then you would indeed be able to state that they arranged it without due consideration of what the wife wants from the marriage. However (at least where I come from) that isn't the case: the mother is normally the main arranger who corresponds with the matchmaker and makes enquiries about the other side. The matchmakers are also generally women. There are no directives from above which force the matchmakers and mothers to ignore their own female nature. The parents of the girl are certainly going to do their best for their daughter, not for their proposed son in law, no matter how patriarchal they may be.

And re being "judged harshly by the rest of the culture", this is absolutely wrong as far as I'm concerned, the husband is always the one who's judged harshly, he couldn't make it work, he's not a man, whereas the wife is pitied for having endured an unloving marriage for so long. Again I can't speak for all cultures but my own...


----------



## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Anon Pink said:


> Most women know that men are different and that includes different emotions. I used that flattering term because it really painted the emotional picture didn’t it? What emotions do you think a wife feels when she feels that spreading her legs is what her husband complains of? Feels cheap? Used? Unimportant? Unloved? So you can experience a range of emotions but only if someone paints the image for you first.


I assure you I understood what you were doing by using that phrase (which I think you used twice). I think it may indicate a lack of understanding that for a normal man intimacy is how he connects with his wife. I could understand using that phrase about a prostitute, where the man comes to seek purely physical gratification. But it was painful for me to see it used in the context of a marriage, as it would indicate that in that marriage intimacy is the same as it is with a prostitute. I'm not sure why but you seem to have judged that that is the case with me?

I'm not complaining about the lack of physical gratification. The complaint is that I can't connect with her and feel loving towards her in a vacuum, I think this is true of most men. This is why throughout these posts I've preferred to use the word "intimacy". She knows this and therefore I very much hope she doesn't think of it as spreading her legs, or at the very least I hope I haven't given her cause to think of it like that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> So if I understand correctly you're making 2 points:
> 1) I could/should be able to read her emotional state better, so she wouldn't need to explain what had upset her or what she wants more of, just as I easily read my children's emotional state
> 2) My wife may find it hard to have insight into her own emotions which is why she can't explain what they are or what caused them.
> 
> The thing is I think I can tell when my wife is feeling loved or when she's feeling dismissed. I may not be the most sensitive to these things, but I'm not completely blind. When I said I want my wife to provide examples and she can't, what I was trying to say is that I think I was being good and attuned to her emotions and I think she was happy all the time, yet suddenly bam she pops.



It’s a bit more complicated and nuanced then that but essentially yes.

If your wife has been marginalized, and perhaps not only by you or just by you, she may be in the habit of searching for validation for what she feels prior to fully understanding what exactly it is that she wants? To illustrate this I’d point to the ways women converse with women on a personal level. You’ll hear noises of agreement “awwwwe” before you hear actual words. But then along with the words “OMG that’s so sweet” you’ll feel validation being given. 

Ugh I’m not explaining this well at all!!!

Long term emotional memory for women is a lot longer than it is for men. Be mr fantastic for two months and then do something that “is just so typical” and the emotional memory of all the things that used to be typical come right back up. This is something women have to own and work on. Resentment is a constant battle when attempting to fix a marriage and expecting resentment to just stop being there is a fools errand.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> OK I'm going to accept your suggestion that there's some kind of causal link between patriarchal societies and arranged marriages. I won't quibble that the vast majority of societies historically have been patriarchal so we don't have much chance to see what a matriarchal or equal society would do. Or that the trend in the modern day away from these two things are two separate results of general more liberal values.
> 
> Where I'm going to challenge you is here: If it were the case that each marriage was arranged by the evil patriarchs/patricians, then you would indeed be able to state that they arranged it without due consideration of what the wife wants from the marriage. However (at least where I come from) that isn't the case: the mother is normally the main arranger who corresponds with the matchmaker and makes enquiries about the other side. The matchmakers are also generally women. There are no directives from above which force the matchmakers and mothers to ignore their own female nature. The parents of the girl are certainly going to do their best for their daughter, not for their proposed son in law, no matter how patriarchal they may be.
> 
> And re being "judged harshly by the rest of the culture", this is absolutely wrong as far as I'm concerned, the husband is always the one who's judged harshly, he couldn't make it work, he's not a man, whereas the wife is pitied for having endured an unloving marriage for so long. Again I can't speak for all cultures but my own...



1. Don’t care if you accept it or not. It’s true whether or not you want it to be.

2. Well yes of course less patriarchy means less arranged marriages and that can only happen when conservative orthodoxy is challenged and challenges to orthodoxy only happen when women are educated.

3. I’m far too tired to educated you, in two or less paragraphs no less, on how women marginalize other women and even their own daughters in a patriarchal system. So let me just point to the loving mothers who bring their daughters for female genital mutilation because a girl not circumcised won’t find a husband. Not that your culture is as bad as this, it simply illustrates how a patriarchy affects the way women see themselves and other women. So your point is invalid.

4. You are a man, thus not directly impacted, and you admit to not being in touch with emotions and more logical and yet you feel husband’s are judged more harshly? I’m sorry but that only serves as more proof, as far as I’m concerned, on how out of touch you are wrt women’s issues within the context of your culture. 

FOO = family of origin.

Sorry can’t get to any more tonight.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@SunCMars

I’m not sure what you mean or what you’re reacting to, and you’re usually a tad cerebrally disconnected  but I’m sorry I mad you sad cause I enjoy your weirdness!

Feel better!





SunCMars said:


> I wrote all this crap and I am still sad.
> It is so hard..it just is.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Excluding external power dynamics you have two people in a marriage - each of whom brings a powerpack to the table. 

I brought:
- Financial power (within a decade my earnings reached 10X what M2 could make)
- Raw brain power/analytics and advanced math problem solving
- Socialization (i was the extrovert, M2 the introvert)
- Physical strength 

We both brought excellent senses of humor 

She brought:
- Maturity and restraint 
- Determination and where needed ruthlessness 
- Mechanical excellence (every item was maintained perfectly, money spent wisely)
- Remarkable judgement - over and over she took us down a path that ended beautifully
- Sexellence 
- In conflict - her reflexes operated at an alien level of speed - turns out that being much much faster means that you win almost any conflict. 

Patriarchy - LOL



Anon Pink said:


> Is there a culture that endorses arranged marriages that isn’t patriarchal? A culture that arranges marriages thinks nothing of the emotional connection and chemistry two people need to create a successful marriage. And who is the MOST affected by the lack of chemistry or connection? The one that traditionally has no recourse if her marriage fails, is judged harshly by the rest of the culture, and has historically been marginalized and dismissed. So anyone who claims that arranged marriages are successful is gazing through a lease that only counts one perspective as important.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The level of cultural insularity demonstrated in the last few posts is a bit, umm, unsettling.

I know we'll over a hundred couples in arranged marriage and exactly one divorce. These people are experts in compromise, working things out, and having lots of fun in the process. 

Every once in a while the process runs into an inflexible, my way or the highway person, be it a prince or w princess. Generally it's about money more than about sex or any form of interpersonal, ehem, currency.

The main risks are not "OMG she grew up around a mean father, a meek mother, and 15 male relatives". The main risk is that after she grew up as indicated, and is now in a more equitable place, she's going to want to act out her inner liberated self, and throw compromise out the window.

Think teenager growing up homeschooled in an ultraconservative family then going to UC Berkeley. Whoa, freedom, as the Woodstock bard proclaimeth.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Anon Pink said:


> @SunCMars
> 
> I’m not sure what you mean or what you’re reacting to, and you’re usually a tad cerebrally disconnected  but I’m sorry I made you sad cause I enjoy your weirdness!
> 
> Feel better!


What do you mean, his reply was inspired! It really brought out how its so sad that men want to be loving to their wives and make an emotional connection and a loving relationship, but the way they instinctively do it can cause their wife to react in such a negative way as though they're husband treats them as a hole, spreading their legs etc, simply because they don't know the right way to approach their wives. They both want to connect, but there's this barrier. It describes the pain, the sadness, the loss of hope that it can ever work out. How despite knowing the recipe which can lead to success (the paragraphs with the oven image), nevertheless the realisation that it is still just so hard still leaves him sad. I'm sure anyone who's had this type of problem in their marriage can appreciate it, I myself read it about 30 times


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> @SunCMars
> 
> I’m not sure what you mean or what you’re reacting to, and *you’re usually a tad cerebrally disconnected*  but I’m sorry I made you sad cause I enjoy your weirdness!
> 
> Feel better!



On TAM, many are just Les Mis'erables. 
Their tonality, as so witnessed by their scribblings, their tear-soaked, openly bared threads.

Men and women are made for each other, by God. 
They fit perfectly together. Like a lock and a key.
One inserted into the other. Both turning 'on'.

Hopefully!

For men, the mindful lock gets tight from 'inactivity'.
For women, the mindful lock gets tight from 'inattention'.

Those two Words can be interchanged, but not in this instance, this context.
This contest.
The contest that is Marriage.
......................................................................................................................
It frustrates me. I love women. 

It bothers me when I cannot 'control' my destiny [or theirs] without making compromises. Substantial ones.

Those who are driven, having purpose, hate roadblocks. Despise failure.

It is not permitted.
It is not possible.

Yeah, right!!
......................................................................................................................

I 'am' Cerebrally disconnected. I am a renter in my body. 
I own nothing. 
I keep the place trim and tidy, pour an occasional Guinness down my pipes to keep them open. 
Other than that, I am on borrowed time.

When young, I wore out my legs, my feet and my peter. 
Now, I wear out the seat of my pants, well, so it seems to a [former] perpetual motion machine.


My writings, viewed as disconnected, are musings, trying to detach the pain, maintain the OP authors agency. 
Sometimes I am spot on. 
Too often I hurt others, needlessly.

In my Tales, I pass time and some gas from too much caffeine. 
Never drugs or alcohol. I cannot write in a 'real' fog. I lose 'real' sight.
I keep falling out of my chair. You cannot type flat on your back.

A gardener cannot grow 'proseys' in a stupor. 
Huh, what? 


The Host-
...........................................................................

You have had him enough, I need his full attention today....The Red Queen.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

@georgieporgie, how exactly does your wife propose that you could make a better effort to connect with her? What were her suggestions?

Re her inability to give examples, don't waste time getting hung up on that. You just need to figure out the right approach to get her to express herself better. More probing and unexpected questions, more compassion and less impatience. It is frustrating, I understand but the existing approach isn't working. Change things up.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Better yet, ask her what does emotional connection mean to her. The wait for an answer. I suspect it's going to be crickets.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Keke24 said:


> @georgieporgie, how exactly does your wife propose that you could make a better effort to connect with her? What were her suggestions?
> 
> Re her inability to give examples, don't waste time getting hung up on that. You just need to figure out the right approach to get her to express herself better. More probing and unexpected questions, more compassion and less impatience. It is frustrating, I understand but the existing approach isn't working. Change things up.


Its not just examples of problems she doesn't give, she also hasn't given clear suggestions of what I can do better. I know it sounds crazy, so I'm having a look over my notes from the therapy. She basically said 3 things, all of them very vague:
1) I have difficulty understanding how to connect emotionally to her
2) I need to make room in the marriage for her needs
3) I need to accommodate her point of view.

Now all these things sound eminently reasonable. The fact she's saying these things makes me sound like a complete control freak. However I honestly can't understand how they relate to real life. I honestly think I do these things! Thats why I ask her for examples of me breaking these rules, so that I can understand how I'm not doing them properly.

The therapist was also struggling to understand. Unfortunately our efforts to probe to understand by getting examples just reinforces her belief that I can't understand emotions, and that the counsellor is the wrong person for her as he also doesn't understand her. She's stopped the joint therapy sessions, only carrying on with her personal therapist, which makes me feel she just wants to feel understood and validated by airing general complaints which are accepted as common problems, by airing them in a bubble i.e. disconnected from reality, where she can't be asked When did I do something which you interpreted as not making room for your needs, etc.

I would try to get her personal therapist to tell me more, but she's resisted all efforts I've made so far, and I've already been rapped on the knuckles in this forum for being too pushy with her. So I haven't a clue how to proceed. Perhaps the forum's ladies (anastasia and anon pink) will be able to shed light on what it might be, though it all seems like speculation frankly...


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

georgieporgie said:


> Its not just examples of problems she doesn't give, she also hasn't given clear suggestions of what I can do better. I know it sounds crazy, so I'm having a look over my notes from the therapy. She basically said 3 things, all of them very vague:
> 1) I have difficulty understanding how to connect emotionally to her
> 2) I need to make room in the marriage for her needs
> 3) I need to accommodate her point of view.
> ...


Hence the suggestion to stop focusing on her inability to give examples. You are spot on regarding her needing validation and understanding. Your therapist's inability to get her to verbalize examples is not proof that her complaints are unjustified. It could just mean that your therapist didn't have the right skill. I've been to 2 psychologists and a social worker before, only recently was a 3rd psychologist able to diagnose me with a personality disorder. And that's due in part to me seeking out one specializing in a disorder I was concerned I displayed symptoms of.

You recognize she needs validation, give it to her. Validation doesn't mean just listening and taking her word for everything. It means accepting first that her feelings are valid regardless of the fact that they may be based on poor interpretations of your behavior. The fact is that this is what she is feeling right now and you not believing her because she cannot give examples is not going to make her feelings go away. You must be realizing by now that this is only having the opposite effect and exacerbates her feelings.

Reel her in with compassion. Don't ask her questions to prove to her that her complaints have no substance, to put her on the spot. Ask her proving questions, let her read the concern in your voice. It could be that she thinks the examples from the past are petty so she's hesitant to come across as pretty, or she's not comfortable voicing her needs or she's never seen her parents be expressive/intimate with each other so she doesn't know how to verbalized what she needs...

It could be anything! This is your wife and you've now realized she has a problem communicating clearly, at some point you will need to accept this flaw and focus on helping her improve. You sound like a loving, caring husband so I'm certain you will find a way to work through this.

Good luck OP.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Steve2.0 said:


> It seems like you have a bunch of hurdles to overcome.
> 
> You indicate your wife is overweight, what is your body like? In the mirror, is it a body that most people would want to have sex with?? I can say positively that when i started putting on muscle my wife started to initiate sex more. She also joined a gym as if to say "you cant out-sexy me"
> 
> ...


Whats my body like - at my wifes worst I weighed almost half what she weighed, despite me being a head taller. My wife says I'm handsome, I could exercise more but I don't think that would talk so much to her.

A lot of women might fancy Brad Pitt, but a lot of women have also tried to have long term relationships with him, without too much success (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Pitt#Relationships)... so good looks aren't all it takes... though I accept your point that it is a factor, but I don't think I'm so bad myself.

What have I done to change myself - I've tried to find out what she wants me to do to change myself, and gone to therapy (which I hate)... and trying to take all the posts here with suggestions seriously

Have had a brief look at no more mr nice guy, not sure how my wife would react if she came across it on my kindle... thanks for suggestion, will keep you posted. Anyone else out there with thoughts on this book? As it certainly seems unique


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

georgieporgie said:


> Have had a brief look at no more mr nice guy, not sure how my wife would react if she came across it on my kindle... thanks for suggestion, will keep you posted. Anyone else out there with thoughts on this book? As it certainly seems unique


I read that book before suggesting it my ex. It was spot on to an almost scary extent. Ex was a nice guy through and through, I think the posters here would have been able to pick it up very quickly if he had posted based on his approach to women/relationships.

I don't quite get the sense that you are a nice guy as defined in the book. Nevertheless you could be demonstrating practices such as overt contracts that are discussed in the book.


It is still surprising to me that more research hasn't gone into the nice guy phenomenon because I think it can be quite detrimental for the man, woman and children involved. Although my experience was bad so I'm biased.

Didyou find it enlightening? See any familiar behaviors or interesting concepts?


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

georgieporgie said:


> Whats my body like - at my wifes worst I weighed almost half what she weighed, despite me being a head taller. My wife says I'm handsome, I could exercise more but I don't think that would talk so much to her.
> 
> A lot of women might fancy Brad Pitt, but a lot of women have also tried to have long term relationships with him, without too much success (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Pitt#Relationships)... so good looks aren't all it takes... though I accept your point that it is a factor, but I don't think I'm so bad myself.
> 
> ...


Handsome men get sex.. Judge by actions not by words.

I just used Brad Pritt as an example, Just insert "Sexy/Rich/Famous Man your wife Adores" into my paragraph.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Excluding external power dynamics you have two people in a marriage - each of whom brings a powerpack to the table.
> 
> I brought:
> - Financial power (within a decade my earnings reached 10X what M2 could make)
> ...



Why MEM I had no idea yours was an arranged marriage. >

You have a pretty impressive grasp of emotional ranges and empathic responses. Would you agree that this has created or helped to create an environment of emotional safety and acceptance, which encourages your wife’s emotional honesty and openness? If your wife routinely felt judged by having to validate her feelings would she have continued her emotional honesty or would she have eventually shut down and shut you out once problems began?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> The level of cultural insularity demonstrated in the last few posts is a bit, umm, unsettling.
> 
> I know we'll over a hundred couples in arranged marriage and exactly one divorce. These people are experts in compromise, working things out, and having lots of fun in the process.
> 
> ...



Very diplomatically put, John. I can’t tell if I’m being chided or challenged. :grin2:

Please allow me to apologize for neglecting to clarify my statements with the obligatory “not all arranged marriages..” I honestly do not believe all arranged marriages are crap, or without love, or without chemistry. 

You example is what I had in mind but my thoughts were more broad than the angry young woman who refuses to compromise once she tastes a bit of liberal thinking.

Think conservatively raised, meaning marginalized, limited and tightly controlled, to being a married woman living within a broader culture that doesn’t marginalize, doesn’t limit, doesn’t control. This woman may be viewed as refusing to compromise but I suspect she is simply refusing to over compromise.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Pink,
If my mom were alive - she’d howl at the very notion of an arranged marriage? 

Plenty of nice Jewish girls in the JCC football league. Hundreds of em. He finds the one Catholic girl on the field, and by the time I hear anything he’s already conceded the field wrt (Temple vs Mass) my graindchildren are to be raised. 
—————————

As to emotional range - everything is just SO much easier when you truly,madly,deeply love and respect your partner. Because the stuff you are conflicted over is inside this overall very happy, kind context. 

And her self awareness helps. Occasionally she looks at me and says: there’s only room for one OCD control freak in this marriage and I snapped up that spot 28 years ago. Sorry.

Then we banter about what the word sorry means - ranging from true remorse to the people on the Carol Burnett show ringing the SORRY bell victoriously - which meant that they just kicked the other persons butt. 






Anon Pink said:


> Why MEM I had no idea yours was an arranged marriage. >
> 
> You have a pretty impressive grasp of emotional ranges and empathic responses. Would you agree that this has created or helped to create an environment of emotional safety and acceptance, which encourages your wife’s emotional honesty and openness? If your wife routinely felt judged by having to validate her feelings would she have continued her emotional honesty or would she have eventually shut down and shut you out once problems began?


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## PDXGuardsman (Nov 18, 2017)

georgieporgie said:


> The funny thing is, that psychologist has a fairly good reputation locally... I was very surprised that he would make suggestions just on the basis of my wife's description though.
> Why do you think I should go to 2 different psychologists? I mean, what if say one says I've got ASD and one says I don't?
> 
> 
> ...




GP, the reason I suggest you see multiple doctors is simply because one doctor could be wrong. When both disagree with each other it’s time to see a third doctor. Wouldn’t you get a second opinion if someone told you that you have cancer? I would. Especially a second opinion on Treatment options. That’s just me. Lots of folks who know will tell you that the mental health profession is a little sketchy on diagnosis of mental health disorders. It’s not the same as diagnosing a broken bone or cancer. Obviously your gonna do what you want to do. 

Regarding relationships and gossip...like I said before...I wouldn’t worry about it unless it effects your relationships with others...if it is..then you have choices. A licensed therapist can help you navigate both your feelings and perhaps help you arrive at decision regarding your relationship with your wife. Marriage can be tough! I know and that’s why I feel for ya!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Keke24 said:


> I don't quite get the sense that you are a nice guy as defined in the book. Nevertheless you could be demonstrating practices such as overt contracts that are discussed in the book.
> 
> Didyou find it enlightening? See any familiar behaviors or interesting concepts?


yes after having seen a bit more of it I think you're right, I'm not the typical Nice Guy. But as you say many points are relevant. Will keep going and report back


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The Nice Guy stuff is - ta a great extent - a construct of the pop psychology industrial complex. Much like 5LL and assorted aphorisms.

Such pop psych books write with generalizations to make lots of people visualize themselves in the books. Then they go for the kill. 

In reality, we exhibit different behaviors depending on what we're after, and a myriad of other factors. Assuming you don't behave like an ax murderer then your behavior meets some midpoint and all is well.

That's not to say that Nice Guy behaviors don't exist. They do. We all do them to some extent. And the books aren't wrong to suggest curbing them. But the books make some Olympic pole vault leaps of faith that need to be reassessed.

A few months ago when separated wife lived here I always filled up her car. Always. Not because I'm a nice guy or a Nice Guy but because it requires premium gas and I'd rather not have to deal with engine issues. In January I was nice enough to show her the gas station near her cozy urban loft, show her the premium sign at the pump, and that was that. I had nothing to gain or lose. Being a decent human being isn't too expensive.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I think there are a few kernels in NMMNG that are very valuable.

Avoiding conflict may seem "nice" but it is not "good". If you disagree with your wife, tell her. Do not be passive-aggressive. Do not make covert contracts. And do not think you are a "great husband" because you never fight with your wife. You would probably be a better husband if you DID fight with your wife because then at least you are being honest about how you feel and what you need instead of being dishonest and manipulative.

And I say that despite having made a conscious decision to be dishonest and manipulative.  But I never said I was being nice. Or a good husband.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think there are a few kernels in NMMNG that are very valuable.
> 
> Avoiding conflict may seem "nice" but it is not "good". If you disagree with your wife, tell her. Do not be passive-aggressive. Do not make covert contracts. And do not think you are a "great husband" because you never fight with your wife. You would probably be a better husband if you DID fight with your wife because then at least you are being honest about how you feel and what you need instead of being dishonest and manipulative.


Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you and @john117 and @Keke24. Most of these books have a few or several genuinely good and helpful insights. But then they have to package it into a whole worldview, usually based on childhood experiences, to make it seem more substantial. It's a pity in a way, but I suppose the idea is to extract whats relevant to you.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

*New development*. I just got a text from my wife's personal counsellor saying sorry she ignored my emails, but she can't get involved in my perspective or say who's right or wrong, if she is to support my wife in a professional way and help her understand her experience, because once she knows my perspective then she won't be fully with my wife's perception of things. 

Now I'm 100% behind the idea that my wife needs people who are focused on her to give her validation etc and not start probing or trying to reconcile us because then she'll feel no-one understands her point of view, and I can accept that her family isn't enough and she needs a professional as well.

What I don't get is this: 

(1) Why can't the therapist at least TELL me what my wife's point of view is, whats bothering her and what things she would appreciate, so that at least I can try. Perhaps my wife can't verbalise it for whatever reason, but the therapist should after so may months have a pretty good idea. [EDIT: I don't see any reason my wife should object to the therapist doing this, as obviously her permission will be required]. Yes I will probably think a lot of the points aren't true or aren't fair, like she'll say I'm being cold & distant and I'll say only after she did xyz, and obviously I won't be able to tell the therapist that. But at least there'll be a chance of hearing something which I could work on myself or with the marriage counsellor (or with the esteemed forum users!) Right now the poor marriage counsellor is having to resort to pure speculation about what the problem might be. 

(2) if there would be a therapist for the marriage then I can understand my wife should have her own therapist: the marriage therapist would get us to try and see each others' point of view, and the personal therapist would validate her POV. But if she's not continuing with the marriage therapist, how can sessions with just a personal therapist be expected to be constructive for the marriage? And if there is no expectation of a positive outcome for the marriage, what am I waiting for like an idiot. 
I suggest that if there is _only_ a personal therapist, then she will have to partially undertake the job of a marriage counsellor also in getting her to try and see her husbands POV, which can't happen if she doesn't know what that POV is. Obviously she'll have to use her judgement not to overdose on the husbands POV stuff but to strike the right balance. But a situation where my wife is encouraged to put herself in an isolated echo chamber where she just hears her own POV repeated back infinitely and all her emotions validated endlessly, is not really conducive to reconciliation. My wife doesn't want a divorce AFAIK, so isn't it in her own best interest for her therapist to take this approach.

I'm not sure if there's any point texting her back with these questions, perhaps someone can enlighten me if there are good answers? Right now this is just reinforcing my feeling that there is some serious issue which my wife doesn't want me to be told about like CSA, so the therapist decided there's no point hearing my POV as that needs to be dealt with first. The stupid thing is that if there was such an issue then if they told me it would really help me to be patient with her and support her in getting over it, and not feel blamed and diagnosed.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Counselor-patient confidentiality does not allow for a therapist to tell anyone else - including a spouse - into what is being discussed in their sessions. 

As for the benefit? It depends, but if it is solo therapy the point isn't and has never been to benefit the marriage, it's to benefit the patient in front of them.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

FrenchFry said:


> Counselor-patient confidentiality does not allow for a therapist to tell anyone else - including a spouse - into what is being discussed in their sessions.


Yes I get that and I should've explained my question better. Why doesn't the therapist ask my wife if she can share her understanding of what I'm doing wrong with me. I don't imagine my wife would object as this would be in everyone's interest.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Because your wife doesn't want you to have that information for one reason or another. Otherwise, she would have told you already.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> Yes I get that and I should've explained my question better. Why doesn't the therapist ask my wife if she can share her understanding of what I'm doing wrong with me. I don't imagine my wife would object as this would be in everyone's interest.


Do you know it would be in your wife's?


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Do you know it would be in your wife's?


If she is being honest in what she's saying is the basic idea of the problem (no emotional connection), then yes it would be in her interest for her therapist to elaborate what made her feel like that, what things could change her view etc.

If the real reason there's a problem is different then that would explain why the therapist can't share with me, as you and @FrenchFry are implying. That's what I meant in the final paragraph of that post "Right now this is just reinforcing my feeling that there is some serious issue which my wife doesn't want me to be told about like CSA, so the therapist decided there's no point hearing my POV as that needs to be dealt with first." I.e. something private like CSA would explain both why the therapist can't tell me whats going on, and also why there's no point her hearing my point of view.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> If she is being honest in what she's saying is the basic idea of the problem (no emotional connection), then yes it would be in her interest for her therapist to elaborate what made her feel like that, what things could change her view etc.
> 
> If the real reason there's a problem is different then that would explain why the therapist can't share with me,


The therapist can't share anything with you due to the terms of her license. Law. So forget that. Just forget it. 



> as you and @FrenchFry are implying. That's what I meant in the final paragraph of that post "Right now this is just reinforcing my feeling that there is some serious issue which my wife doesn't want me to be told about like CSA, so the therapist decided there's no point hearing my POV as that needs to be dealt with first." I.e. something private like CSA would explain both why the therapist can't tell me whats going on, and also why there's no point her hearing my point of view.


The therapist is not an activist for your wife. The therapist does not take action for your wife like a mother. The therapist helps your wife decide what actions to take for herself.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

I agree with @NobodySpecial. 

For example:



> Perhaps my wife can't verbalise it for whatever reason, but the therapist should after so may months have a pretty good idea.


If her therapist is working with her to be better able to stand up for herself to you and/or family members, it would be a disservice for your wife for her therapist to just tell you what is going on.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

Sounds like you are intimating that you NEED a therapist for yourself. You have questions that you cannot get answers and are having trouble with compacting the issues concerning your marriage and relationship view in general....Right?

Since you cannot get into your wife's world right now. It may be a great time to look "inward" and find out more about yourself and what your needs and wants are....


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

georgieporgie said:


> If she is being honest in what she's saying is the basic idea of the problem (no emotional connection), then yes it would be in her interest for her therapist to elaborate what made her feel like that, what things could change her view etc.
> 
> If the real reason there's a problem is different then that would explain why the therapist can't share with me, as you and @FrenchFry are implying. That's what I meant in the final paragraph of that post "Right now this is just reinforcing my feeling that there is some serious issue which my wife doesn't want me to be told about like CSA, so the therapist decided there's no point hearing my POV as that needs to be dealt with first." I.e. something private like CSA would explain both why the therapist can't tell me whats going on, and also why there's no point her hearing my point of view.


Hey @georgieporgie, can you shed some light on your relationship with your wife?

1. What do you typically argue about?
2. When's the most upset you've ever seen your wife?
3. How does she typically respond in disagreements between you?
4. Has she ever indicated specific things she'd like you to do/do differently (besides the vague "emotional connection")?
5. What about you, what are your least favourite characteristics of your wife?


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Just on one point of this: Tell both your wife and by extension her dad, that giving a diagnosis without actually having a session with a patient, and conveying your thoughts to people who are NOT THE PATIENT is both unethical and reportable. Tell them that this person is going to be reported to their local association, and that YOUR WIFE AND HER FATHER ARE AT FAULT. Let the psych know that this has been done. Sure she will shut her cake hole PDQ, and have a dirty word with your wife and her father.

As to your wife: She puts in a half assed effort. She is morbidly obese, and can't seem to stick to something. Well, I'm sorry, but she needs a fire built under her ass. I am not saying to divorce, however, she has not seen any consequence to her actions. Since her dad lives nearby, and your requests are treated in a half-hearted manner, then why not ask her to leave. Give her a short term separation. Your reasons for doing so? Well, when you explicitly ask for her discretion, and she tells her dad behind your back? That is a betrayal. She tells a shrink about you and suggests a diagnosis? That is a betrayal. She suggests that your actions put you on the spectrum? (I would have asked her to leave that second and told her of my desire to divorce in that second-I would then get evil pleasure by saying that she is a WHALE OF A GIRL-I know I am patently evil, but do not fu ck me over, I will get you back) (PS-I had a client in this situation, and she talked and complained bitterly behind his back...until he started telling her secrets to her friends and family, lies she told, secrets she kept, opinions she never wanted known...shortly, nobody was talking to her, then he told her mother about a previous serious boyfriend who was not of her race, and an abortion...he mortified and embarrassed her to the highest degree possible, and she recognized that what she did to him, came back in spades)


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Keke24 said:


> Hey @georgieporgie, can you shed some light on your relationship with your wife?...


Wow that's actually a really clever way of approaching this. My first thought when I read your post was OK I'm not doing that, but you're right his could help. OK here goes:

*1. What do you typically argue about?*
We _disagree _about plenty of things. 

How to bring up the kids, e.g. she wanted to buy a very expensive present for our son recently and I said it cost too much and wasn't his birthday or anything and our house is already stuffed full of toys. 
How to spend money generally, I'm the miser who tries to keep us out of overdraft. 
A common source of disagreement is me looking at things logically and her looking at them emotionally, for example before we went to the doctor about her anxiety, my wife thought the symptoms she experienced indicated Multiple sclerosis, and was in her mind almost up to thinking about where she should be buried. Whereas I said how likely is it that these common symptoms in a young lady are due to MS.
However I want to stress that these disagreements don't normally end up as an argument. Normally one of us just says OK fine, sometimes me sometimes her. These are pretty standard sources of disagreement in marriage, and we normally manage it like normal couples. Its only when she's been pressing my buttons that it turns into a proper argument. So you could say that arguments are caused by lack of intimacy, gossiping etc, even though they aren't about those things.

*2. When's the most upset you've ever seen your wife?*
I emailed her therapist that I was considering going to discuss divorce with someone who knows the ins and outs of it, and could the therapist please state what exactly my wife was complaining of, so that I could show her reply to this person. Because I don't like going behind my wife's back (as I hate it when she does it to me), I have a rule that I always show her emails about our marriage. She seemed pretty upset at the time at the thought of divorce. Although right now our marriage is not really functioning as we've hardly spent any time together recently, and she seems very happy with that, I believe happier than when the marriage is functioning normally... which indicates that she wants to be in a dysfunctional marriage...

*3. How does she typically respond in disagreements between you?*
When neither of us compromise, she has this really annoying line she picked up from a previous counsellor which she always says with an air of great triumph: "OK that's what _you _think, but in a marriage there are *two *people so..." The trouble is this is supposed to be used to first validate and then suggest we should try to compromise or find common ground, but I find she uses it to imply I'm strange (read: not like her family) and that things have to be done her way.

*4. Has she ever indicated specific things she'd like you to do/do differently (besides the vague "emotional connection")?*
Well there's the things we disagree about which I mentioned. Apart from that, no.

*5. What about you, what are your least favourite characteristics of your wife?*
The points mentioned in my original post are top on that list (withholding intimacy, gossiping, lack of self control with dieting and exercising). The "typical disagreements" list also come up on this list, though not as high as the other things.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> Sounds like you are intimating that you NEED a therapist for yourself. You have questions that you cannot get answers and are having trouble with compacting the issues concerning your marriage and relationship view in general....Right?
> 
> Since you cannot get into your wife's world right now. It may be a great time to look "inward" and find out more about yourself and what your needs and wants are....


I think we need a therapist for the marriage. Someone who can understand whats bothering her and explain it to me. A personal therapist for myself may help me deal with the results of the situation, but not to solve the actual problem. I think I'm aware of what my needs and wants are, the problem is I'm unaware of my wife's, and my wife is acting unaware of mine.
Unfortunately A) my wife has stopped the therapy and only seems to want to get an autism diagnosis now; B) Given that she didn't keep her agreements in therapy at all, it seems a little silly from my point of view to continue. So its not looking very likely that will happen...


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Taxman said:


> Just on one point of this: Tell both your wife and by extension her dad, that giving a diagnosis without actually having a session with a patient, and conveying your thoughts to people who are NOT THE PATIENT is both unethical and reportable. Tell them that this person is going to be reported to their local association, and that YOUR WIFE AND HER FATHER ARE AT FAULT. Let the psych know that this has been done. Sure she will shut her cake hole PDQ, and have a dirty word with your wife and her father.


Thats a fun idea... but are you sure its reportable. They described me to the psychologist who said I should come in to be evaluated as it sounds like I'm on the autism spectrum. I don't think he said anything for sure... besides I expect client confidentiality only extends to the client, I've never been his client.

Its like all those psychologists who voiced concern over whether Trump is an "extremely stable genius". They a) didn't say definitively; b) he wasn't their client. So although I'm sure it was very unpleasant for him, I'd imagine he doesn't have cause to report them.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

It is absolutely reportable, and she could face censure for this. No professional would lower themselves to giving an opinion without first doing the due diligence. Georgie, find out which association she belongs to, and give them a call. Subsequent to that , tell your wife and her father that the result of their actions is that their little friend is going to be out of business for awhile. Let the shrink know that you reported her. I had a similar situation with another accountant who was spouting to one of my clients, that he was positive that I had made a gigantic error in the person's books. I went to my client and said that if there was an error, I would eat my fee, if there was no error, then the other ******* would pay my fee five times over. The ******* met my challenge, and then when it was apparent that I was correct, he tried to back out. NO FU CKING WAY SHlT-FOR-BRAINS. My fee for this client was $10K, I made this other prick pay me $50K. He was trying to poach a client, and I proved he was an idiot, and now a poor idiot. 

Never should a pro with a reputation make pronouncements unless they can back it up. If this woman made that pronouncement to your wife and her father, then she should lose her license to practice. Furthermore, tell your wife and her daddy dearest to go fu ck themselves! You are not a topic of discussion in any event. Tell daddy that the next time you hear that he has talked behind your back, you will kick his nuts so hard it will look like he is wearing earrings, tell this to him in your wife's presence. Tell her that if she does not bite her wh0re's tongue, she will find it difficult to speak in divorce court. I had a BIL who loved to talk behind my back. I warned him and warned him. He thought it was funny to cast aspersions on my sexuality. He did not know that I knew his dirty little secret. So, it comes back to me that he was calling me gay. The person who told me, was given another little piece of gossip. I told him of the time I had to go to the local cop shop to bail the shlt out of jail, he was arrested for public masturbation. He was sitting at a traffic light with it out of his pants jerking madly, until some woman caught it, screamed and the police were there before he could flee. (Hard to do that when everyone saw the make model and license on your car).

Soooooo, my wife gets a rather, shall we say, belligerent call; How dare I tell his dirty little secret. She looks at me, "Why did you do this to my brother?" I said, simply this; I am tired of him thinking that he can get over on me by impugning my reputation, calling me homosexual, and generally trying to make me into a laughingstock. Nobody is laughing at me now, are they? She didn't believe that he was going around calling me gay. She made a quick call to a mutual friend, who asked her where the hell she has been when I am in the same room as her brother? Did you not hear the remarks about your husband sucking ****? Did you not hear the remark about taking it up the ass? We wanted to know how a wife can stand there and ignore the shlt being thrown at her husband? She was flummoxed. She was in her own little world while I was verbally assaulted. She said she had no idea. Her mother called demanding an apology, and I told her that when he tears his **** off jerking in public I will say I am sorry. Then the ******* calls. My wife tears him a new one over the phone. He demands that I apologise, so I said at the next family dinner in front of everyone, "Gee I'm sorry that you have to jerk off in public, I guess your wife hasn't given up her gorilla sized cu nt to you in a while, guess self abuse is better than your wife!" My FIL nearly shlt himself laughing. My BIL left. His wife left. My MIL was pissed that I made fun of her precious little boy. He got a warning that next time he opens his mouth, I will be sending a long letter to his employers with a copy of his conviction. See how that plays out.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Taxman said:


> I am not saying to divorce, however, she has not seen any consequence to her actions. Since her dad lives nearby, and your requests are treated in a half-hearted manner, then why not ask her to leave. Give her a short term separation. Your reasons for doing so? Well, when you explicitly ask for her discretion, and she tells her dad behind your back? That is a betrayal. She tells a shrink about you and suggests a diagnosis? That is a betrayal. She suggests that your actions put you on the spectrum? I would have asked her to leave that second and told her of my desire to divorce in that second


After thinking about it for a while I'm inclined to think you're right. Its very nice thinking about whats bothering her and trying to work on it etc as many people here have suggested (@Keke24, @Anon Pink and @anastasia6 main culprits). But on the other hand the way she handled it wasn't OK. So _as well as_ trying to improve so she'll be happy, there also need to be some clear result of her actions. She's been told countless times these are red lines for me, and she could've handled the situation in a way I'd've found OK, e.g. telling me she wants to see a new marriage counsellor, we'd go to one who was a proper psychologist and see what he says without going behind my back and getting me pre-diagnosed. She chose to handle it a way which completely trampled on me, and is pretty much a betrayal as you wrote. So its great to be compassionate and understanding, but it needs to be backed up with something or it will just happen again. 

The thing is it needs to be backed up with something which doesn't punish me more. A separation would be pretty embarrassing for me, whereas for her she would be able to bask in the attention and pity. Sure it would be unpleasant for her, but it'd be worse for me.

Any suggestions for some other forms of consequence? And what does everyone else think about the suggestion in general?


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

Wait....didn't you say that this was an "arranged" marriage? I'm sure with culture differences and all I am misunderstanding the nuances of it all...No offense. But She lets herself go and is "morbidly obese" and then she has a depression type thing going on and then the problems with sex...

Why are you with her now? And separation is embarrassing to you? Maybe you can fill in some of the blanks I'm not seeing here.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

georgieporgie said:


> After thinking about it for a while I'm inclined to think you're right. Its very nice thinking about whats bothering her and trying to work on it etc as many people here have suggested (@Keke24, @Anon Pink and @anastasia6 main culprits). But on the other


You hate people going behind your back so you let your wife know ahead of time you were emailing HER therapist your request AND that it included words of divorce right?

And many doctors give standard not opinions.
You call up and say hey I've been ill, achy running a high fever and I'm exhausted many doctors will say sounds like the flu but come on so I can check it out. That's not malpractice. 

But hey as I said sounds like you want out so get out.

As a culprit around here I'm getting out🖐 Bye bye. Hope you and your wife find ways of being happy.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> Wait....didn't you say that this was an "arranged" marriage? I'm sure with culture differences and all I am misunderstanding the nuances of it all...No offense. But She lets herself go and is "morbidly obese" and then she has a depression type thing going on and then the problems with sex...
> 
> Why are you with her now? And separation is embarrassing to you? Maybe you can fill in some of the blanks I'm not seeing here.


Yes, as you guessed these things are all down to culture differences, while it has changed a bit there is still a fairly strong expectation that you keep it together, particularly if there are kids... I know it seems crazy! But I'm not going to stay like this forever, it just makes me be a lot more patient about divorce than I would be otherwise.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

anastasia6 said:


> You hate people going behind your back so you let your wife know ahead of time you were emailing HER therapist your request AND that it included words of divorce right?


Absolutely... I make a point of always printing of these emails as soon as I've finished them and giving it to my wife. Might be unpleasant to read but it only says the facts... and its better IMHO than having people complaining about you without your knowledge, or worse with your knowledge that they're complaining but not knowing what about. Sorry for ruining the hypocrite theory but I do try to keep my own standards


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@georgieporgie

I’ve reread your opening post again, as well as post #10 again, and all your posts from when I first jumped in on this thread.

I could spend 40 minutes or so cutting and copying every instance in your writing in which you reveal this tendency, to be discussed below, but I have other things to do that are more productive. I hope you will consider what I say but I also have doubts in equal measure.

So, for what it’s worth...


You have a need to be blameless. You have to right. You don’t want her “gossiping” about you, when it is perfectly reasonable for anyone to confide in a loved one when they need support. You claim to be a private person and that’s why you resisted therapy. But in my experience those who resist therapy are, in reality, avoiding being held responsible. @john117 can verify that if you wish. Even if the reality of the situation isn’t one in which blame belongs in the picture, people who resist therapy are people who are terrified of being blamed or found at fault.

(On a personal note I’ve never understood what is so god awful about being wrong. Being wrong doesn’t mean being worthless, it just means there is some more learning to do)

Your wife’s weight “close to morbidly obese” may or may not be a simple life stage, considering your kids are fairly young. After a few pregnancies the after baby weight is more settled and infinitely more difficult to shed. I don’t think it’s very fair to expect her to return to a state of fitness. Unless she has always been athletic, you’re expecting her to engage in activities that have never been a regular part of her life.

I’m unfamiliar with ANY corroboration that anxiety is caused by obesity and I very much doubt her doctor suggested that all she needed was a better diet and exercise. Psychologically, the cause/effect is reversed. First anxiety then symptoms. The symptom is the weight gain, the cause is the anxiety. Fix the cause fix the symptom.

Pregnancy and childbirth alter a woman’s body tremendously and if your wife has picked up on your aversion to her after-childbearing body ::: * OF COURSE SHE IS GOING TO AVOID SEX WITH YOU!!!!!* I suspect you have selected her weight as a tally mark in your favor because...you do not like being blamed and you need to throw something back at her. 

The reason why I suspect this is because if your wife’s weight was such an issue to you, why the hell do you want to have sex with her? This makes no sense to me.

You keep focusing on the fact that no one (your wife or her therapist) will enlighten you on what you should change. In other words, if you can’t tell me how to do it right than I am not to blame for doing it wrong. You need to give this issue a rest. 

I suspect your wife’s therapist has her hands full attempting to wade through the marginalizing devastation of being married to a man who shows little warmth, demands sex while at the same time demanding she get in shape (because that’s a total turn on for any woman -can you see me rolling my eyes) and always has to be right! 

Lastly, you say you’d be humiliated and socially castigated if your marriage ended. I suspect it’s more about your fear of being blamed.

I doubt very much you have autism. I think you’re probably damned astute. 

I also think you should get yourself to your own therapist.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

georgieporgie said:


> Absolutely... I make a point of always printing of these emails as soon as I've finished them and giving it to my wife. Might be unpleasant to read but it only says the facts... and its better IMHO than having people complaining about you without your knowledge, or worse with your knowledge that they're complaining but not knowing what about. Sorry for ruining the hypocrite theory but I do try to keep my own standards


So your ok with her talking to her dad about you as long as afterwards she tells you. She can talk to her dads friend about you as long as afterwards she says hey I had a conversation with --//// about the trouble you have connecting with me and they think we should have you go talk to them to see if maybe your autistic. You'd be ok with that?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

georgieporgie said:


> Absolutely... I make a point of always printing of these emails as soon as I've finished them and giving it to my wife. Might be unpleasant to read but it only says the facts... and its better IMHO than having people complaining about you without your knowledge, or worse with your knowledge that they're complaining but not knowing what about. Sorry for ruining the hypocrite theory but I do try to keep my own standards


So your ok with her talking to her dad about you as long as afterwards she tells you. She can talk to her dads friend about you as long as afterwards she says hey I had a conversation with --//// about the trouble you have connecting with me and they think we should have you go talk to them to see if maybe your autistic. You'd be ok with that?


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

anastasia6 said:


> So your ok with her talking to her dad about you as long as afterwards she tells you. She can talk to her dads friend about you as long as afterwards she says hey I had a conversation with --//// about the trouble you have connecting with me and they think we should have you go talk to them to see if maybe your autistic. You'd be ok with that?


Look is it really hard to understand that family should be left out? I've never once complained about her to my family or told them whats going on. Family can't consider things without bias, their involvement is toxic for a marriage. 

Same goes for psychologists who live locally, its uncomfortable. I'm fine if she discusses it with people who live miles away and I'll only ever see them in therapy. I've only discussed it with therapists she's already been talking to, like this one who lives 200 miles away (skype). Not with say her colleagues at work.

A lot of your posts are very helpful, but some of them (like this desperate attempt to try and prove some double standard) give the impression that you're blindly on the side of the woman. I wonder how you'd react to a thread complaining about a husband who told his family his wife was autistic and did xyz, discussed with neighbours etc, withheld intimacy without saying why... you'd probably say he's isolating her, he's abusive, she should run for the hills


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I don't think withholding intimacy is good. But I also don't think you or most men understand that women have intimacy After they feel connected not to connect. Family is family when you divorce her as it is obvious you working up to, that's who she can count on. For most people it's who they can count on , who loves them, and in the end who will be there. She should be sharing good and bad things with her family it is how you stay connected. I think she has some issues and I think she isn't neccesarily handling them the right way. I think you have issues, you are the only one here so how would I address her issues? You say you want help but what are you implementing? Have you made an appointment with a physiologist of your own? Have you approached her about going to another marriage counselor? Have you discovered her Love language? 

you refuse to see it is inappropriate to contact her therapist, and of course you are right on family. And she should only talk to those isolated from her. Sounds controlling. But it ok cause she is fat and withholds sex so you should be able to do what you want.

Am I always on the women side no. First this isn't or shouldn't be sides IF you want a healthy marriage. But TAM often times skews to the male view, doesn't have empathy for any women who isn't having relations with their husbands as often as he wants, and will sit and give you props. So if you came to vent you've found a great place that will tell you how great you are and that you should dump her. And how is that helping you? I was trying to actually help you see two sides, as I said at the first post or so you both are probably part of the problem. But you can only work on your side.

So divorce her. She does sounds like you have no room for her. Her whole life should be arranged to make sure you aren't uncomfortable. I think Anon Pink is onto something.

One other poster suggested having her live with her DAd for awhile that's an excellent suggestion. If she knows your considering divorce lots of women will get into shape and behave better, even have more sex so they can save their marriage. It will also make it easier on her to determine if she wants to do that. She may not want to be married to someone she can't emotionally connect to. Just as you don't want to be married to someone you aren't physically connected with. Living with dad will give you both something to think about and some space.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

anastasia6 said:


> Family is family when you divorce her as it is obvious you working up to, that's who she can count on. For most people it's who they can count on , who loves them, and in the end who will be there. She should be sharing good and bad things with her family it is how you stay connected...
> And she should only talk to those isolated from her. Sounds controlling.


She was talking to her family before I said anything about divorce. At that stage I don't think anyone would recommend talking to family about marriage problems. She's welcome to talk to her family about the weather. I'm surprised you think asking her to respect my privacy is controlling, perhaps we should agree to disagree.



anastasia6 said:


> I think you have issues, you are the only one here so how would I address her issues? You say you want help but what are you implementing? Have you made an appointment with a physiologist of your own? Have you approached her about going to another marriage counselor? Have you discovered her Love language?


Yes in process of finding psychologist and new marriage therapist. Have read a lot of the love languages book and think hers is spending quality time. Just before seeing your post I asked her to come on a walk in the park with me just us. I spent a while thinking about @Anon Pink's recent post "You have a need to be blameless. You have to right", and reading about that eg https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-243...t-its-probably-ruining-your-relationship.html as I think she has a point.



anastasia6 said:


> But it ok cause she is fat and withholds sex so you should be able to do what you want...
> Her whole life should be arranged to make sure you aren't uncomfortable.


Wow. You make it sound as though I've hit her or something because she can't cartwheel on one hand. All I'm doing here is considering my own very reasonable needs. 



anastasia6 said:


> Am I always on the women side no. First this isn't or shouldn't be sides IF you want a healthy marriage. But TAM often times skews to the male view, doesn't have empathy for any women who isn't having relations with their husbands as often as he wants, and will sit and give you props. So if you came to vent you've found a great place that will tell you how great you are and that you should dump her. And how is that helping you? I was trying to actually help you see two sides, as I said at the first post or so you both are probably part of the problem. But you can only work on your side.


I'm not sure TAM only considers the husband's needs, you've been here much longer than I but this recent thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/418569-husband-seems-uninterested-me.html does seem to understand the womans side also.
As I said I appreciate your input a lot. But I feel the most helpful posts acknowledge both sides explicitly, not just as an afterthought. Someone going through a rough time doesn't really want to be bulldozered. I've tried to bear that in mind in my posts on other threads since joining the forum. I repeat your input has been very helpful, thank you



anastasia6 said:


> One other poster suggested having her live with her DAd for awhile that's an excellent suggestion. If she knows your considering divorce lots of women will get into shape and behave better, even have more sex so they can save their marriage. It will also make it easier on her to determine if she wants to do that. She may not want to be married to someone she can't emotionally connect to. Just as you don't want to be married to someone you aren't physically connected with. Living with dad will give you both something to think about and some space.


Yes it will give both of us some room for reflection. I think I'll try once more now, and go for this suggestion if there's a next time.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> Look is it really hard to understand that family should be left out? I've never once complained about her to my family or told them whats going on. Family can't consider things without bias, their involvement is toxic for a marriage.
> 
> Same goes for *psychologists *who live locally, its uncomfortable.


I get the idea of not wanting someone talking about your private stuff to every Tom, **** and Harry. But this one makes no sense. A psychologist is a professional who is meant to help your wife. Guess how much this professional thinks about you when s/he goes home? Not At All. In person help is way better than skype. Are you sure, to your own self, that you are not just concerned with your image?



> I'm fine if she discusses it with people who live miles away and I'll only ever see them in therapy. I've only discussed it with therapists she's already been talking to, like this one who lives 200 miles away (skype). Not with say her colleagues at work.
> 
> A lot of your posts are very helpful, but some of them (like this desperate attempt to try and prove some double standard) give the impression that you're blindly on the side of the woman. I wonder how you'd react to a thread complaining about a husband who told his family his wife was autistic and did xyz, discussed with neighbours etc, withheld intimacy without saying why... you'd probably say he's isolating her, he's abusive, she should run for the hills


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I get the idea of not wanting someone talking about your private stuff to every Tom, **** and Harry. But this one makes no sense. A psychologist is a professional who is meant to help your wife. Guess how much this professional thinks about you when s/he goes home? Not At All. In person help is way better than skype. Are you sure, to your own self, that you are not just concerned with your image?


in this case, the psychologist is a friend of his wifes dad. a friend of the family who lives close, who also happens to be a psychologist. THAT is the one that bothers him, not her normal psychologist that she sees... 

that his wife is **** talking her husband to this family friend, who now seems to want to diagnose him with autism without ever having a session. 

i would find it to be very disrespectful. sounds like some pretty low handed scheming.

unless im not following his posts correctly...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> in this case, the psychologist is a friend of his wifes dad. a friend of the family who lives close, who also happens to be a psychologist. THAT is the one that bothers him, not her normal psychologist that she sees...
> 
> that his wife is **** talking her husband to this family friend, who now seems to want to diagnose him with autism without ever having a session.
> 
> ...


Okay but let’s appky some real world common sense. Do you think it likely an actual PhD psychologist is making any sort of diagnosis based on complaints from the wife? Hell No! More likely the phsychologist said something like, “autism spectrum is pretty wide” or “logical people can easily fit into the spectrum...” 

I think OP feeling violated that his wife confided in someone he knows without his permission. I think OP is negating the professional nature of people in the psychology field who do not involve themselves in *judgmental gossip*, at all, and I know this personally.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I get the idea of not wanting someone talking about your private stuff to every Tom, **** and Harry. But this one makes no sense. A psychologist is a professional who is meant to help your wife. Guess how much this professional thinks about you when s/he goes home? Not At All. In person help is way better than skype. Are you sure, to your own self, that you are not just concerned with your image?


He lives nearby, is an important member of my community. If I ever have dealings with him in the future I will be conscious of the fact he knows whats going on in my private life. This is part of the power imbalance between therapist and client: apart from that the client is seeking help, also the therapist knows more about the client than the client knows about the therapist.

The fact that I'm sure the psychologist doesn't really think about it afterwards won't make me feel less self conscious.

Some people seem to get me on this, some people don't. I guess people are different. Either way this is how I feel (and my wife was aware of this).


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> He lives nearby, is an important member of my community. If I ever have dealings with him in the future I will be conscious of the fact he knows whats going on in my private life. This is part of the power imbalance between therapist and client: apart from that the client is seeking help, also the therapist knows more about the client than the client knows about the therapist.
> 
> The fact that I'm sure the psychologist doesn't really think about it afterwards won't make me feel less self conscious.
> 
> Some people seem to get me on this, some people don't. I guess people are different. Either way this is how I feel (and my wife was aware of this).



This may freak you out even more, but people in the psych field can spot significant personality maladaptions pretty easily just from a few polite conversations. So whatever diagnosis you think this psychologist might be attributing to you, chances are, they had already been attributed. 

This might help you feel less invaded, professional detachment carries into personal day to day interactions with others. It is seen, noted on a very insignificant level, and quickly dismissed as irrelevant to the current interplay dynamic.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> He lives nearby, is an important member of my community.


A friend of her father's?



> If I ever have dealings with him in the future I will be conscious of the fact he knows whats going on in my private life. This is part of the power imbalance between therapist and client: apart from that the client is seeking help, also the therapist knows more about the client than the client knows about the therapist.
> 
> The fact that I'm sure the psychologist doesn't really think about it afterwards won't make me feel less self conscious.
> 
> Some people seem to get me on this, some people don't. I guess people are different. Either way this is how I feel (and my wife was aware of this).


I'd be tempted to say that getting a different psychologist would be a no brainer, but around here, they are not easy to come by.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Okay but let’s appky some real world common sense. Do you think it likely an actual PhD psychologist is making any sort of diagnosis based on complaints from the wife? Hell No! More likely the phsychologist said something like, “autism spectrum is pretty wide” or “logical people can easily fit into the spectrum...”
> 
> I think OP feeling violated that his wife confided in someone he knows without his permission. I think OP is negating the professional nature of people in the psychology field who do not involve themselves in *judgmental gossip*, at all, and I know this personally.


from what i have read, she does the same thing my wife did that i nearly divorced over. basically, it amounts to stabbing your partner in the back, wherever you go. my wife would talk **** about me to anyone who would listen, especially her family. it did not matter what i did to try and do things right, everything got twisted around in the worst light and then was used as more proof of how bad i was, pathetic i was, evil, etc. plenty of disrespectful judgments. it finally became something i was willing to divorce her over when people outside our marriage began to start plotting ways to get me to shut up and accept her foul treatment of me by using "authority" figures to slap a label on me.


OP's wife is the one who keeps telling everyone he is not emotionally connecting, but either refuses to tell him what he can do better, or simply doesnt know. SHE is the one who has always been adverse to physical intimacy of any kind, even holding hands. she sounds more likely to be on the spectrum than he does, to be honest. if she isnt just unwilling to tell him, then we have to consider the possibility that she simply does not know what that looks like. 



thing is, OP has taken criticism quite well. he has not flipped out over anything anyone has said has has barely shown any defensiveness at all. earlier, you said that he has a need to be right, but it doesnt look like that to me. if that were the case, he would try to defend himself from everyone pointing out his flaws. instead, he says "you may be right, where can i learn more about this"? 

that is NOT how someone would react to being challenged if their whole goal is to seek validation. its quite obvious that he wants to find out how he can fix his relationship with his wife, and seems quite agreeable to suggestions to change his own behavior. so far as emotions go, he seemed quite expressive of emotions when he responded to SunCMars's poetic description of his predicament.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

georgieporgie said:


> After thinking about it for a while I'm inclined to think you're right. Its very nice thinking about whats bothering her and trying to work on it etc as many people here have suggested (@Keke24, @Anon Pink and @anastasia6 main culprits). But on the other hand the way she handled it wasn't OK. So _as well as_ trying to improve so she'll be happy, there also need to be some clear result of her actions. She's been told countless times these are red lines for me, and she could've handled the situation in a way I'd've found OK, e.g. telling me she wants to see a new marriage counsellor, we'd go to one who was a proper psychologist and see what he says without going behind my back and getting me pre-diagnosed. She chose to handle it a way which completely trampled on me, and is pretty much a betrayal as you wrote. So its great to be compassionate and understanding, but it needs to be backed up with something or it will just happen again.
> 
> The thing is it needs to be backed up with something which doesn't punish me more. A separation would be pretty embarrassing for me, whereas for her she would be able to bask in the attention and pity. Sure it would be unpleasant for her, but it'd be worse for me.
> 
> Any suggestions for some other forms of consequence? *And what does everyone else think about the suggestion in general?*


I don't see why establishing consequences for your wife repeatedly discussing personal issues behind your back negates the option to be compassionate towards her in an effort to figure out her issue with you and your emotional connection with her. Being compassionate doesn't mean no consequences, that's being codependent.


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

Keke24 said:


> I don't see why establishing consequences for your wife repeatedly discussing personal issues behind your back negates the option to be compassionate towards her in an effort to figure out her issue with you and your emotional connection with her. Being compassionate doesn't mean no consequences, that's being codependent.


I agree. Its just that it might depend on what the "consequence" is. I.e. something fairly drastic like telling her if she does xyz then I'll be asking you to go to your fathers' house, would probably make her feel threatened, which won't really go too well with the compassionate thing. Thats another reason why I was trying to think of a less extreme consequence.

Also if the consequences are spelt out rather than simply implied, then she'll probably react by saying "that's not a normal way to behave in a marriage by making threats to control your wife". So I'm not sure how I would present the consequence in a way which won't get her upset


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

georgieporgie said:


> I agree. Its just that it might depend on what the "consequence" is. I.e. something fairly drastic like telling her if she does xyz then I'll be asking you to go to your fathers' house, would probably make her feel threatened, which won't really go too well with the compassionate thing. Thats another reason why I was trying to think of a less extreme consequence.
> 
> *Also if the consequences are spelt out rather than simply implied, then she'll probably react by saying "that's not a normal way to behave in a marriage by making threats to control your wife".* So I'm not sure how I would present the consequence in a way which won't get her upset


"In a normal marriage to a respectful and loving wife that would not be the way to behave. Maybe you should consider becoming a respectful and loving wife."


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@As’laDain

Seeking validation is not the same as always has to be right. Pathological, or just annoying AF. People who have a need to be right don’t always get defensive or argue every point. Also, OP doesn’t strike me as an idiot and only an idiot would argue back about not always being right. I once accused another poster here that she always had to have the last word...and guess what she did? “That’s not true...bla bla bla.” So she was stupid as well as arrogant.

Secondly, both you and the lovely Aki can go from one extreme to another and while your experiences may well be relatable I would be no means suggest them to be average, as in bell curve average.

Lastly, as a wife who routinely heard...tell me what you want me to do...thus letting himself off the hook if I failed to proved the script, or the recipe, I’m having a hard time believe his wife is that damned obtuse to refuse to answer the question.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

georgieporgie said:


> I agree. Its just that it might depend on what the "consequence" is. *I.e. something fairly drastic like telling her if she does xyz then I'll be asking you to go to your fathers' house*, would probably make her feel threatened, which won't really go too well with the compassionate thing. Thats another reason why I was trying to think of a less extreme consequence.
> 
> Also if the consequences are spelt out rather than simply implied, then she'll probably react by saying "that's not a normal way to behave in a marriage by making threats to control your wife". So I'm not sure how I would present the consequence in a way which won't get her upset


that would be a pointless consequence anyway. it is not something YOU can do. well, you can ASK her to go, but you can not make her. you cannot make her do ANYTHING. 

you can only chose _your own_ actions and responses to her behavior. here is the thing about stating what you are going to do... it is not open for debate. she can say whatever she wants about it, but she has no say in what you do unless you give her a say in it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@georgieporgie

if you are unwilling to suffer shame of being separated, then you will have to find other consequences for her behavior. so, lets look at the biggest thing that she does that you have an issue with: gossiping about you to everyone who will listen. complaining about you to people who are not there to help the marriage. **** talking. whatever you want to call it. 

it seems to me that you wife is VERY concerned about her image. she wants people to view her in a positive light and you in a negative light. otherwise, why would she constantly complain about you to other people, but not tell you what you can do to fix anything? that said, you are very worried about your image too. otherwise, why would you care what she says about you, and why would you care how people would view you in the event that you two separate? it would be much easier for you to fix things if you did not care how society would try to shame you. but, since you do, ill try to suggest something that you can do. if you are too afraid to do it, then you will just have to accept that YOU are the one keeping yourself in this situation and just accept the life you have chosen to exist in.

anyway, here is what i would do in your shoes: i would tell her that the next time i find out about her gossiping about our relationship and complaining to people who we ARE NOT PAYING to help one or both of us with our issues, i will post what find out about on social media. before i tell her that, i would first write out my first post on the subject, something along the lines of this:

"for everyone who reads this, i am posting this to let you all know that my marriage to my wife is in trouble. for X amount of time, my wife has been complaining about me behind my back to friends, family, coworkers, and neighbors. it seems to me that she has even gone so far as to convince people that i suffer from autism spectrum disorder. she has told people that i do not emotionally connect to her, but has so far refused to tell me what an emotional connection looks like from her. i have asked her to stop gossiping about me behind my back several times, and is something that i have never done to her, but she has continued to do so. since she has chosen to continue to do so, i have decided to do something that i have never done before. i am publicly talking about our marriage issues to people who are not professionals who are trained and paid to assist us in building a stronger marriage. from now on, i will publicly announce the things that she says about me on social media whenever i find out about it. i will also publicly announce the things that i have issues with regarding her. in doing so, i will not be able to bring myself to resent her for gossiping about me because i will essentially be doing the same to her. i am uncomfortable with putting our issues out to the public like this, but i would rather suffer the public shame of airing our dirty laundry than harbor resentment against my wife, the mother of my children and my life partner. i would much prefer that we learn to address our issues between us in a private manner, but if we cannot do that, then i will at least be able to let go of my resentment of her actions.

that said, this is what i have found out that she has said about me recently, and these her behaviors that i currently have issues with..."

write up something like the above. copy and paste it if you want. show it to her and tell her that the next time you find out that she is gossiping, you are posting that for EVERYONE to see, and then you are going to name her behaviors that are destructive to your marriage. just don't tell her that you will do it unless you are actually willing to do it. if you dont have social media, then tell her that you will text it to everyone, email everyone, etc. the point is, you will be causing her public shame by her own actions. if she does not want you publicly complain about her and put her in a bad light, then she will have to stop doing it to you. 

think you can stomach that?


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

@Anon Pink

I dont think the weight issue is baby weight. The youngest is 6 years old. If as a mother you have not lost the "baby weight" after that amount of time, and then gained even more, a husband who cares for his wife is nearly duty bound to say something to his wife. When saying something does nothing, and his attraction level falls, sex will stop. By all means, he is only human.

@OP

Culturely it sounds like you going up against a rather strong obstacle. Her family will not help you because their devotion is to her, not you nor the family you are trying to create. Here is a suggestion I doubt that has been suggested yet. Call it the Mystic Marriage Journal. In it, only Non Aggressively worded questions can go in it from one person to the next. 3 questions a day can be asked (or whatever number is considered holy). It is handed to the other person at night and the next night is returned with answers and filled with new questions for the other spouse. The questions can be asked like "What do you feel when you talk to so and so?" (If you want to find about why she gossips). You're looking for what's she's feeling about situations and whatnot because you can probably come up with other ways for her to feel those feelings once you know the situations she currently feels them in. But also ask about things within the marriage, things that make her feel loved by you, safe with you, etc. I'll help ya out with first couple of questions if you wanna try this route


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> the point is, you will be causing her public shame by her own actions. if she does not want you publicly complain about her and put her in a bad light, then she will have to stop doing it to you.
> 
> think you can stomach that?


Its certainly fair, although she does it not to hurt me but because she really needs validation from all these people, its a need for her, whereas for me it would be out of frustration/trying to get her back.

Maybe I should take the bull by the horns and discuss it openly with her father. Right now when we meet we both fake it as though everythings OK. Maybe I should just have it out with him: How do you justify my wife doing xyz. Hmmm not sure how he'd react. Maybe if he knows my point of view it will take away my wifes ability to get validation by talking to him because he'll say but why did you do xyz. Why do you think he's autistic, he's distant because you hurt him. So maybe that will get her to stop. It all depends on how reasonable he'll be/ willing to hear my POV. What do you think


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## georgieporgie (Apr 15, 2018)

georgieporgie said:


> Maybe if he knows my point of view it will take away my wifes ability to get validation by talking to him because he'll say but why did you do xyz. Why do you think he's autistic, he's distant because you hurt him. So maybe that will get her to stop. It all depends on how reasonable he'll be/ willing to hear my POV. What do you think


Although this suggestion has a strong risk of getting me accused of needing to be right


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

georgieporgie said:


> Its certainly fair, although she does it not to hurt me but because she really needs validation from all these people, its a need for her, whereas for me it would be out of frustration/trying to get her back.
> 
> Maybe I should take the bull by the horns and discuss it openly with her father. Right now when we meet we both fake it as though everythings OK. Maybe I should just have it out with him: How do you justify my wife doing xyz. Hmmm not sure how he'd react. *Maybe if he knows my point of view it will take away my wifes ability to get validation by talking to him because he'll say but why did you do xyz. Why do you think he's autistic, he's distant because you hurt him. So maybe that will get her to stop. It all depends on how reasonable he'll be/ willing to hear my POV*. What do you think


so, you want your father in law to fix this for you? are you not a grown man capable of enforcing your own boundaries by yourself?


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