# Getting what I need without giving an ultimatum !



## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

Long story short is I have good reason to suspect my H had an affair (maybe more than one) 20 plus years ago. My suspicions were aroused in 2011.

I want desperately to believe him when he tells me he has never strayed. I can put my suspicions out of the forefront of my mind much of the time but it's always there in the background and from time to time something will trigger my suspicions and I am starting to feel that I will never get out of my cycle of emotional torment unless he agrees to a take a poly. He has refused saying he does not believe in them, taking one "would change who he is". He has also said that a person who is telling the truth and fails a poly would likely feel suicidal. For these reasons, I took the poly issue off the table.

I have not brought up my suspicions or wanting a poly for nearly a year now and do not want to give him an ultimatum. However if he doesn't agree to take a poly I believe it will be best for me to call it a day on our marriage. 

To be fair to him, he may not realise how much these doubts still hurt me. He is a bury your head in the sand type of person I would say. I want to let him know how much these suspicions still affect me (mentally and physically). 

The man I thought I was married to would not want his wife to be in the place I find myself. I would not ask for a poly if I didn't have good reason (my story is here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/28373-dont-recognise-my-h-myself.html)

He is not a talker - he won't want to talk about this. How do I approach letting him know what I need without appearing needy and without giving an ultimatum. Am I being immature to want him to want to help me feel better? 

Your thoughts please. I can't take being in this limbo much longer.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I haven`t cheated on my wife & I wouldn't take a poly if she asked.

I don`t know what you can do about a twenty year dead possible infidelity.


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## boogie110 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ok, I just wanted you to get a quick response - I know it sucks waiting for a response and I am off to one of my 12 step groups.

The previous post was long - which is fine not knocking it - so I couldn't read it all. However, if you had an STD that causes miscarriages, to me, I guess I'm not sure why you let that pass. Your doctor sucked for not explaining stuff enough to you. 

It sounds like yes, of course, your H is a rotten tomato. Mine is too, ok? There are a lot of them here - both men and women. So you want to know how to make yourself feel better.

Work on yourself.

Work out. Get a better job if you work or get a job if you want to work. Get good friends, then better ones. Be surrounded by people you can count on cuz you can't count on your H. You can really only count on yourself.

You cannot make anyone do anything - ever. He has to decide if wants you to be better. It sounds like he worries only for himself.

If you have any S-anon or Cosa groups or Al-anon even start going to them - they WILL HELP you focus on yourself and not focus on your H and that is what will help you in the end. If you can go to counseling great. If you want to start counseling with him fine too - as long as he doesn't lie, which he will. Counseling does not help if the partner lies. I've been there - it worsens all problems. So don't go to MC unless he fesses up. Work on yourself.

You can serve him papers if you want him to do the poly, but it sounds like he would take the papers. Work on yourself.

I have a Sh8tty husband. Lied the whole marriage. But he goes to meetings, group counseling, IC and would take a poly tomorrow if I wanted. I just don't want to, cuz I don't want to give him hope and giving me the poly would be the last thing he could do. He wants to put the house in my name, the car, anything I want so that I will stay. That is how remorse begins to show - all of that: the 2 meetings per week, the constant apologizing when I rage, the weekly group meetings, the weekly IC, the giving me of what I want. But you know what? All that and I still don't feel any better. I must work on myself. Remorse or not - he still lied and cheated in some form for our entire relationship. He has a broken mind. He is not a good husband. He wants to be now - but it still doesn't make me feel better. I must work on myself. Good luck. Time to go to my meeting - that is working on myself.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I read your previous post.

You had an STD years ago.. like 20 years ago. Either one of you could have brought that STD into your marriage. You said that you were sexual with one person before you married your husband and you know he had sex before you but you don’t know how many people he had it with.

You have NO PROOF what-so-ever that your husband is the one who brought the STD into your relationship. Yes you could have been the one who did that. 

You have NO PROOF what-so-ever that your husband cheated on you ever in your relationship.

But you want him to take a polygraph test. They are inaccurate 75% of the time. I will never take one for that very reason. If he did take a polygraph test, you still would not know if he cheated on you or not. The inaccuracy of the test will only cause you more doubts.

It sounds to me like you are looking wanting to blame your husband for the STD because then you are not responsible for the miscarriages is caused. Or maybe you just want out the marriage and so need to have a reason.

If he has not cheated on you, he will never admit to cheating. If he did cheat on you he has refused to admit it and will probably continue to refuse. The fact that he refuses to admit it does not mean he cheated or did not cheat. The STD does not prove that he cheated either.

If you want a divorce, just divorce him and stop torturing him. 

If you don’t want a divorce, deal with your feelings about your suspicion that your husband might have cheated on you decades agoe, a suspicion based on zero evidence.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

If your doubts are not put to rest, they will continue to grow and poison your relationship. You have identified what you feel is important to you, knowing the truth, and how you would want to get to that point, a poly. I am a bit unclear as to why you want to approach this situation without seeming "needy" or proposing an ultimatum. This is one of your needs by definition, so whether you want to seem needy or not doesn't really matter. If this need of your doesn't get addressed, your relationship is doomed anyway.

His excuses for not wanting to take a poly seem a bit out of left field and would certainly raise red flags in my book. Im not sure how taking a poly would fundimaentally change him as a person. They may not be accurate enough to be used in court, and they could certainly give false positives or negatives, but taking one wouldn't change him in the least, unless he is hiding the truth, in which case it would force him to address it, and that could certainly change who he is as a person.

Just talk to him, explain that this issue is a make or break issue for you, and if he wants to continue being married he will comply, or present you with a satisfactory alternative solution (assuming one exists)


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Can you have your medical records checked? Was it an STD? Or an infection that could have been an STD or have had another method of transmission?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You imply that you suspect there has been ongoing infidelity that you haven't described here. Is that correct?


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## HappyHubby (Aug 16, 2012)

Which STD? 

I thought a girl gave me an STD once. It was actually yeast infection or some other infection that antibiotics cleared up. Happened a few times with other girls and once with my wife.. it may have been the condoms actually as there was a correlation with condom use and these infections. I tested negative for gonorrhea and chlamydia.


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## Louise7 (Nov 8, 2012)

I would never take a poly because the results cannot be relied on. Even if I hadn't lied, I still wouldn't take one. What ever his reasons, I don't blame your husband for refusing to take one. 

You have not said which STD you and he had. It seems clear though that either one of you could have been infected. Miscarriages are awful but rarely anyone's fault.

You say in your other thread that you thought your husband was bugging your phone and pc. What did you do about that? What did you do about your suspicions that he had hidden money in other accounts? What did you do about finding out why he was not at work when he should have been? Did you put a voice activated recorder in his car? Did you investigate further on your theory that he has fathered other children?

I suspect the answer to all of the above is that you didn't do anything. You cannot prove what went on in the past but you were advised to investigate what is going on now. 

A poly isn't going to tell you what you want to know and you are going to have to accept that. If you find out he's cheating now, fine - kick him to the curb.

Seems to me that you are looking to blame your husband for something and want a hook to hang it on. It's perfectly fine to divorce your husband because the marriage isn't working for you. You can't change the past but you and only you are responsible for your own future.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

tacoma said:


> *I haven`t cheated on my wife & I wouldn't take a poly if she asked.*
> 
> I don`t know what you can do about a twenty year dead possible infidelity.


Thanks Tacoma - If my H wanted me to take one because he was emotionally conflicted and without peace of mind, despite his best efforts, I would take one to try and help him get over this. Apart from the question of accuracy (but not dismissing this necessarily), can you please help me understand why you wouldn't take one when you have nothing to hide?


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

wiser11 said:


> Thanks Tacoma - If my H wanted me to take one because he was emotionally conflicted and without peace of mind, despite his best efforts, I would take one to try and help him get over this. Apart from the question of accuracy (but not dismissing this necessarily), can you please help me understand why you wouldn't take one when you have nothing to hide?


I suspect because the test can easily give a false positive. Imagine the hurt that would needlessly cause.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

boogie110 said:


> ...So you want to know how to make yourself feel better.
> 
> Work on yourself.
> 
> ...


Thanks Boobie 110

To work on myself is good advice. I have done this to some extent but need to do more and to be consistent. We did have approx 5 counselling sessions about a year ago. My H had always been 100 per cent against going to counselling but he did go and I was grateful for this. In the first session, without my bringing up the topic of a poly, the counsellor suggested this. H managed to persuade her and me to take this off the table and the sessions concentrated more on how we could get over/avoid long period of not speaking. 

With the counselling, the questions of infidelity was dealt with by us both signing something saying we had never cheated on each other. 

Throughout the counselling I felt he implied that although either one of us could have brought the STD into the relationship, he felt it was more likely to be me as I had the more recent other sexual partner (i.e. I slept with someone in the year we were apart where he had said that he hadn't slept with anyone else since 3 years before we first met). A few weeks after signing, (and post the last counselling session) he tells me he lied about it being 3 years before we met that he has slept with anyone else and that he had slept with two women in the year we were apart. This unsettled me (? manipulative on his part) but as it is not actual infidelity, I decided to just let this go. l

Anywas as regards counselling, he will never go back. Before we went he said he didn't have a problem and that it wouldn't help. I believe it has helped us generally as we no longer go weeks on end not speaking like before, often over trivial matters. I am glad I no longer have fear such periods of not speaking which I found so crushing and isolating. 

I think the counselling helped to some degree re the suspicions of infidelity in that by the last session I was 90% convinced that he is not a cheater. I really tried to let it go and leave it to God to deal with him if he was lying but I have not quite been able to sustain this although I really want to. I want to coz I love him. Life would be a whole lot easier if I didn't love him and could easily detatch from him. Sometimes I feel really distanced from him and numb but I want things to work out and for us both to be happy.

Thanks for the reminder to work on myself. It's encouraging to know that doing this is working for you.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

wiser11 said:


> Long story short is I have good reason to suspect my H had an affair
> 
> Your thoughts please. I can't take being in this limbo much longer.


I read your link and about the STD.

Where you a virgin when you married?

Ask your Dr that treated you/if not possible then your current Dr all of the ways of how you could of caught the STD.

Then you may have your proof.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I read your previous post.
> 
> You had an STD years ago.. like 20 years ago. Either one of you could have brought that STD into your marriage. You said that you were sexual with one person before you married your husband and you know he had sex before you but you don’t know how many people he had it with.
> 
> ...




I think my main issue re the STD and the miscarriages is why didn't he tell me what the doctor privately asked him if he was sleeping with anyone else? The doctor never told me I had an STD. Yes I am stupid (naive at best) for not realising that the infection was an STD. Once my H realised I had an STD why didn't he question me about it at the time if he knew he had never been unfaithful himself? Remember that at this time there was no internet. *He wouldn't have known that the STD could be dormant for a number of years at that point in time.* It was in 2011 that I told my H the STD could lie dormant. His keeping quite about what the doctors told him makes we wonder if he just kept quiet to hide cheating? 

The reason I am thinking of splitting is because I can't get to peace of mind on this issue. You are right in that bringing this up will torture my H whether or not he cheated. Please know that if I am torturing him I am torturing myself also. I don't want to be like this. 

I don't want a divorce per se. I'm considering it as *I don't know how to deal with not being able to prove or disprove my suspicions with zero evidence. * Because there is zero evidence as you have pointed out does erase my memory or suspicions. I wish it did, I really do. If anyone can help me come to terms with this please .....

Thanks for your thoughts on this EleGirl - as hard as it is to hear.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

In my opinion you really need counselling; whether by a family member, friend or counsellor might not matter.

You need an outside perspective on this.

I don't wish to be rude, but your thought process does not seem to be 100% rational and you are making a BIG decision based on this process.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Can you have your medical records checked? Was it an STD? Or an infection that could have been an STD or have had another method of transmission?


It was Trichomonas. I just wish the Doctor and my H would have discussed it with me at the time it was discovered all those years ago.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

Paladin said:


> If your doubts are not put to rest, they will continue to grow and poison your relationship. You have identified what you feel is important to you, knowing the truth, and how you would want to get to that point, a poly. I am a bit unclear as to why you want to approach this situation without seeming "needy" or proposing an ultimatum. This is one of your needs by definition, so whether you want to seem needy or not doesn't really matter. If this need of your doesn't get addressed, your relationship is doomed anyway.
> 
> His excuses for not wanting to take a poly seem a bit out of left field and would certainly raise red flags in my book. Im not sure how taking a poly would fundimaentally change him as a person. They may not be accurate enough to be used in court, and they could certainly give false positives or negatives, but taking one wouldn't change him in the least, unless he is hiding the truth, in which case it would force him to address it, and that could certainly change who he is as a person.
> 
> Just talk to him, explain that this issue is a make or break issue for you, and if he wants to continue being married he will comply, or present you with a satisfactory alternative solution (assuming one exists)


He is aware I do not understand the reasons he has given me but can offer nothing further.

I had also asked him if he would be prepared to swear on the bible as to his fidelity. Again he said this was against his principles. I an aware he has done jury service in the past and recently the topic came up and I asked him if he would do jury service again, bearing in mind it involves swearing on the bible. He said yes he would do it again. I just feel hurt that he can swear on the bible for a bunch of strangers but not for me to ease my mind.

My honest feeling is that if I went public with our issues to the wider family etc. he might then agree to swear on the bible or take a poly to try and prove something to them but I have no intention of going this route. He cares very much for what people think of him. It's odd how he'll sometimes happily do things for others that he will moan about doing for me or refuse to do for me.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

wiser11 said:


> Thanks Tacoma - If my H wanted me to take one because he was emotionally conflicted and without peace of mind, despite his best efforts, I would take one to try and help him get over this. Apart from the question of accuracy (but not dismissing this necessarily), can you please help me understand why you wouldn't take one when you have nothing to hide?


Because of the question of accuracy.

God forbid I`m innocent and a poly claims I`m not.

What utter tragic irony that would be


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> You imply that you suspect there has been ongoing infidelity that you haven't described here. Is that correct?


Over the years there have been a number of times when my suspicions were aroused. Having been cheated on in the past I put these mostly put these suspicions down to my own paranoia and said nothing. On a couple of occasions I asked him directly and got nowhere, we ended up not speaking and on one occasion he turned on me most uncharacteristically and shouted/swore in my face which was a shock. After that I never raised any suspicions again until 2011. 

I am focused on the STD because this is the closest to proof I can get. The other things could be in my mind, just my gut, righrt or wrong. The STD is a fact. We both now know I had an STD.

I'll give an example of something I haven't followd up. I came home from work early one day many years back to find the chain on the front door and was unable to get in. I rang the bell, knocked on the knocker for a good ten minutes before he eventually came and let me in. He said he was sleeping pstairs and didn't hear the bell. We don't usually keep the chain on the door all day. I let this go, putting it down to my own insecurities but stuff like this has come back to me since I have come to know that I had an STD but was never told. The STD thing has me questioning everything. I know I'm not doing myself any favours but it's just the way it is.

Another part of me wonders if I was right to dismiss stuff as paranoia due to being cheated on in the past. Still not sure how I didn't question us both having to be treated for an infection without suspecting something at the actual time. Was this due to trust, denial or what. My head spins. Just want some peace. With the STD, even if he could acknowledge that I have reason to be concerned, confused, suspicious it would be of some help.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

Louise7 said:


> I would never take a poly because the results cannot be relied on. Even if I hadn't lied, I still wouldn't take one. What ever his reasons, I don't blame your husband for refusing to take one.
> 
> You have not said which STD you and he had. It seems clear though that either one of you could have been infected. Miscarriages are awful but rarely anyone's fault.
> 
> ...



Thanks Louise7. The STD was Trichomonas. 

Does it really come across that I would feel better about the miscarriages if it could be proved that my H brought the STD into the marriage? Our babies will still be gone regardless of who it was so that is not the issue. I am thankful to have gone on to have children afterwards. The issue is was he faithful throughout the time we've been together. This would be an issue with or without my having lost the babies. 

The reason the marriage isn't working now is because I cannot let go of the suspicions. The other main issue for the marriage was the long periods of not speaking and this was addressed during the MC and we have both made efforts to get over this and done well. Any other issues we have are minor - not deal breakers at all. 

I am sending you a PM.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

theroad said:


> I read your link and about the STD.
> 
> Where you a virgin when you married?
> 
> ...


Neither of us were virgins when we married, I had one other and he has 3 others. The MC we saw confirmed what I had found on the internet that this STD can lie dormant for long periods - hence it could have been from either of us. The fact it could have been brought into the relationship from a previous partner with no infidelity on my side or his is comforting but it doesn't mean it couldn't have come into the relationship as a result of infidelity within the marriage. Obviously I know I was faithful but cannot be certain about him. 

I will look into this again although not with my own current doctor who is male and knows my husband well. Once bitten twice shy!


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

Chris989 said:


> In my opinion you really need counselling; whether by a family member, friend or counsellor might not matter.
> 
> You need an outside perspective on this.
> 
> I don't wish to be rude, but your thought process does not seem to be 100% rational and you are making a BIG decision based on this process.


I am not at all offended by your comment. I really want to idenfify where my thinking may be erroneous and reach some conclusion on all of this so if you can please pinpoint what you mean it could help me to be more rational. Thanks.

With the MC, she was impressed with what a nice man he was/nice couple. She felt I needed closure on the matter and the signed "statement" was suggested as a way of doing this. She believed he was telling the truth and, having herself having suggested a poly, she later said it was not the way forward as he would so against it.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

wiser11 said:


> I am not at all offended by your comment. I really want to idenfify where my thinking may be erroneous and reach some conclusion on all of this so if you can please pinpoint what you mean it could help me to be more rational. Thanks.


Good. I did worry after posting it. I just mean that the combination of:

- scant evidence on the STD that gives far better odds for it being non-infidelity related.

- a long time since your suspicions

means that it doesn't seem to be an issue that it is practicable to "solve" for all sorts of reasons.



wiser11 said:


> With the MC, she was impressed with what a nice man he was/nice couple. She felt I needed closure on the matter and the signed "statement" was suggested as a way of doing this. She believed he was telling the truth and, having herself having suggested a poly, she later said it was not the way forward as he would so against it.


The thing that strikes me - and I am the first to accept that my opinion does not have any special significance - is that it looks like there is a different problem causing these worries. It just looks too distant, muddied and - in terms of evidence - trivial to make such a big deal of.

Not to say that you are not justified in making a deal about *something* but I wonder if it's a symptom of a different cause?

No doubt this was all explored in MC so perhaps I am stepping wide of the mark here but I do feel for you. It sounds like you are really hurting about this and I am just throwing things out in the hope that something sticks as it were.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It sounds to me like the STD issue is just the most glaring in a pile of circumstantial things that result in your simply not trusting your H. We always say to trust our guts, but then imply that that is really just an irrational feeling that we are relying on. Researchers believe, though, that intuition and the famous 'gut feeling' is a concrete biological effect that uses learned signals to warn us of danger. I think you've had an entire marriage of feeling those signals but getting no satisfaction or proof from your H.

I don't think he'll ever just offer anything to you. Short of an obvious smoking gun, you'll never truly know what he's been up to. The decision to stay or go is yours, in my opinion. If you can feel that you can love him without trusting him, then go for it. If you can't, you are free to call it quits.


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## Louise7 (Nov 8, 2012)

wiser11 said:


> Thanks Louise7. The STD was Trichomonas.
> 
> Does it really come across that I would feel better about the miscarriages if it could be proved that my H brought the STD into the marriage? Our babies will still be gone regardless of who it was so that is not the issue. I am thankful to have gone on to have children afterwards. The issue is was he faithful throughout the time we've been together. This would be an issue with or without my having lost the babies.
> 
> ...


Trichomonas can cause early labour but is no more implicated in miscarrage than other maternal infections. I do understand that your concern is that he cheated in order to get the infection. 

I have replied to your PM. Sorry it's long.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

wiser11 said:


> [/B]
> 
> I think my main issue re the STD and the miscarriages is why didn't he tell me what the doctor privately asked him if he was sleeping with anyone else? The doctor never told me I had an STD. Yes I am stupid (naive at best) for not realising that the infection was an STD. Once my H realised I had an STD why didn't he question me about it at the time if he knew he had never been unfaithful himself? Remember that at this time there was no internet. *He wouldn't have known that the STD could be dormant for a number of years at that point in time.* It was in 2011 that I told my H the STD could lie dormant. His keeping quite about what the doctors told him makes we wonder if he just kept quiet to hide cheating?


Why couldn’t he have known that the STD could dormant for years? Twenty years I knew that a lot of STD’s could lay dormant for a long time. The doctor knew this as well. He might have told your husband this. It sounds like you had an ‘old school’ doctor who felt it was better to not tell you everything. He might have advised your husband not to tell you. That used to be pretty common.. to try to protect a woman from the details of what led to the miscarriage or still birth.

I’m not looking to make excuses for your husband. I’m playing the devil’s advocate.


wiser11 said:


> The reason I am thinking of splitting is because I can't get to peace of mind on this issue. You are right in that bringing this up will torture my H whether or not he cheated. Please know that if I am torturing him I am torturing myself also. I don't want to be like this.


A lot of people are advised to never tell their spouse about an affair. They are told that they need to handle their own guilt and make It up by being the best spouse they can be. 

Let’s assume for a moment that he did cheat and got this advice. Then he’s trying to protect you. He knows you feel bad now, but you will feel even worse for years if he confesses. There are many times when I wish I did not know about my husband’s infidelity. I wish I never had that pain.. that he protected me from it. When I watch the pain the BSs go through, I’m not sure that full disclosure is all that good a thing if the WS ends the affair and dedicates themselves to the marriage and their spouse.

He’s been a good husband since that time, right? You have never caught him cheating. Does decades of being a good spouse and loving you count for nothing? Is the only thing that matters in your relationship a slim chance that he cheated decades ago? I really do believe that his decades of being a loving husband counts for a lot, a whole lot.



wiser11 said:


> I don't want a divorce per se. I'm considering it as *I don't know how to deal with not being able to prove or disprove my suspicions with zero evidence. * Because there is zero evidence as you have pointed out does erase my memory or suspicions. I wish it did, I really do. If anyone can help me come to terms with this please .....


You deal with it by knowing that he has loved you for a very long time and that out weights anything else .. as long has he is not cheating now.



wiser11 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts on this EleGirl - as hard as it is to hear.


Have you read any books on the topic of recovering from infidelity? A very good one is "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Harley. I suggest the book as I think it will give you a good perspective on things.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Another reason why it is good to get tested for STD/STI before you get married.

P.S. condoms with nonoxynol 9 can flare up yeast infections.

If ever, seek him at his weakest and ask him, telling him you wish for the full truth, no shame, no judgement, no fear for hurting you, you can handle the truth. He may still say he hasn't.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

There really is no way of knowing for sure unless he confesses. Polygraphs are not 100% reliable. They aren't even used in court, for that reason.

It happened so long ago that you have no proof, other then an STD. You are driving yourself insane about it.. 

I also have my suspicions about my husband cheating on me 4 years ago, but have no proof, and was never able to get any.. You just have to move on or get out..


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

Chris989 said:


> Good. I did worry after posting it. I just mean that the combination of:
> 
> - scant evidence on the STD that gives far better odds for it being non-infidelity related.
> 
> ...


Sorry for delay in posting - for reasons not related to the issues of this thread its difficult for me to find private time to read and post but will try and catch up.

I will have to find a way to be content that there is no way to prove my suspicions - i.e. a poly wouldn't necessarily help. Regarding all being explored in MC - well not really - he hated going, never wanted to talk about what was said in MC between sessions and after his last session and I had 3 more sessions with the MC on my own, he wouldn't go back for a final session. She was gonna suggest we renew our vows. I never told him of her suggestion as a few years previous I had asked him about this and he was not keen at all - said we were married already, couldn't really see the point. 

Thank you.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

@EG

Where and who gives the DS the advice that they should not confess the infidelity? That kind of backwards thinking is most probably what got the DS to cheat in the first place. If the DS was interested in protecting the BS from pain, they would not have cheated in the first place. There is also a reason for the BS to feel that kind of pain, it gives the BS a *choice*, something that the DS robbed them of when they skulked around with their AP behind the spouse's back. Why gamble with something like this? What if the affair was kept secret, the DS dedicates themselves to the BS, and somehow 5 years later the truth surfaces? That kind of damage is almost impossible to fix.

@wise

Your descriptions of your DS are far from rosy. You've identified many poor qualities in this thread. What are the reasons behind your desire to R?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Personally I think you're probably right. He probably cheated. I don't say that lightly. The thing is, the doc told him he had an std and gave him the treatment. If that happened to me I'd be in my wife's face questioning how I got an STD. But he didn't do that. Instead he swept it under the rug, minimized it to get you treated as well. That's pretty good evidence, to me, that he assumed that he was the one to bring it to the relationship.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Here's what I don't understand. 

Twenty years ago you were treated for Trichomoniasis. You have said right out loud here in this thread that twenty years ago he was with 3 other people before you and you were with 1 other person before him. Now I don't mean this mean, but that's not a lot of sexual experience for either one of you, and it doesn't sound as if either one of you was entirely promiscuous, in the past. Thus, there is virtually no proof that this came from an "affair" or even reason to suspect it. 

In addition, for the past twenty years, there is not only no evidence "for a court of law" but also no real reason to suspect or prove that he was ever anything other than 100% faithful. The other example you gave as a "red flag" that 'something wasn't quite right' was coming home one day and finding the front door chained instead of locked "the normal way". Again, that is not even close to being a red flag, and who knows how long ago that was...and it happened once. 

See, in my humble opinion it's a 'red flag' when one spouse spends the majority of their life being a quiet, homebody of a person who loved to go to bed early and wake up early and shunned "cell phones", who had long hair and liked classical music, and ALL OF A SUDDEN one year they go out every night until the wee hours of the morning (more than once), they sleep in all morning every day for months, they get a brand new smart phone and they are all technological now, they cut their hair and start wearing tight clothes, and now they listen to PUNK. See how that is like a complete change of their personality? 

In addition, there are 'red flags' of an affair when you can put together several additional actions that are pointing to something unusual. For example, when you look at the credit card statement, there are changes for things you don't remember seeing. *AND* at the same time, when you look at your spouse's schedule, he isn't where he says he's going to be or not there as long as he says he's going to "be there"...so his schedule isn't adding up. *AND* at the same time, you look at your phone bill and there are 400 phone calls from the same phone number. *AND* at the same time, you notice that about $200 of your spouse's paycheck isn't being deposited into your joint bank account and you don't know where it's going. Now individually one of those actions may not look good, but it may not be proof of infidelity either--but all of them together, why that would be a 'red flag'!!! See what I mean? It's several things added up, all happening at the same time. 

And it's not just the occasional oddity either, because let's be honest, when we are sick or when we are tired anyone can still be "who they are" and yet do something a little different. I know I've worked hard all day in the garden and been so tired, I went to bed and locked the garage door but forgot to lock the front door! But the fact that I did something a bit "out of the ordinary" doesn't mean I was cheating--it just means that I was way too tired to think straight! LOL

So considering that all this happened twenty years ago, and considering that there's no evidence or reason to suspect there ever was an affair, and considering that his entire character didn't change and has stayed pretty consistent for twenty years, and considering there are not additional actions happening all at once to raise 'red flags'... it seems to me you have talked yourself into believing he has been unfaithful no matter what. Even if we were to assume the absolutely worst--namely that he did have an affair twenty-one years ago and caught an STD and gave it to you but never told you--what I see after that is twenty years of being a faithful and pretty patient husband!! 

I don't know. Honestly I am not convinced that the absolute worst is true, and if it's not true that means that for twenty years you have been suspecting him and accusing an innocent man demanding he confess to something he never did or else you're divorcing him!! If you had been accused of adultery for twenty years and threatened with divorce (and the accompanying lack of stability for the future, etc.), how would you feel? Would you want to stay with and be married to someone who constantly demanded you confess to something you didn't do or they are going to financially hurt you? 

Wise, here's my thoughts for you. I'd really suggest that you consider letting go of whatever happened twenty years ago because for the intervening twenty years he has been faithful and consistent. Then I would recommend that you discuss with your counselor the way your head is thinking it's a wise thing to threaten a marriage that has been faithful and consistent for twenty years. I know most people don't like to hear this, but I believe there may be something in your own mind or past or way of thinking that you might need to look into....and I say this in hopes you'll become a wiser, happier, more healthy woman and wife.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> *It sounds to me like the STD issue is just the most glaring in a pile of circumstantial things that result in your simply not trusting your H.* We always say to trust our guts, but then imply that that is really just an irrational feeling that we are relying on. Researchers believe, though, that intuition and the famous 'gut feeling' is a concrete biological effect that uses learned signals to warn us of danger. I think you've had an entire marriage of feeling those signals but getting no satisfaction or proof from your H.
> 
> I don't think he'll ever just offer anything to you. Short of an obvious smoking gun, you'll never truly know what he's been up to. The decision to stay or go is yours, in my opinion. If you can feel that you can love him without trusting him, then go for it. If you can't, you are free to call it quits.


Thanks Alte Dame -I think the part bolded above is a good summation. I probably could have gone on a lifetime with having suspicions about certain things, dismissing them as I have been cheated on in the past / not wanting to be over reactive. 

Thinking about it, although I have always loved him without feeling complete security within myself, strange to say *deep *down I did trust him and this is how we're still together. Since the STD realisation that deep underlying trust has been shaken. I need to at least get back to where I was before I knew of the STD to be able to go on.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Because of the question of accuracy.
> 
> God forbid I`m innocent and a poly claims I`m not.
> 
> What utter tragic irony that would be




Thank you.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Why couldn’t he have known that the STD could dormant for years? Twenty years I knew that a lot of STD’s could lay dormant for a long time. The doctor knew this as well. He might have told your husband this. It sounds like you had an ‘old school’ doctor who felt it was better to not tell you everything. He might have advised your husband not to tell you. That used to be pretty common.. to try to protect a woman from the details of what led to the miscarriage or still birth.
> 
> When *I *told my H the STD could lie dormant he reacted that he didn't know this and asked me for the website where he could read it. Therefore I don't think the doctor told him this, although it is a possibility. In hindsight, yes this was def an old school doctor. If the doctor gave my H the impression he needn't mention the existence of an STD to me, then you could well be right in that my H would be happy to go along with this to avoid any awkward conversation with me. H has a tendency to tell me/people what he thinks I/they want to hear/omit the rest (whereas I want to hear the truth).
> 
> ...


Thanks for this recommendation Elegirl and for your insight.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

Paladin said:


> @EG
> 
> .....
> @wise
> ...


Hard to explain but fear on my part of making a mistake and regretting it coz he's always been there for me, our kids, my parents too if needs be. Nutshell is I've always loved him and don't know how to stop. Despite the negatives, I feel safe with him and had never dreamed we couldn't get through any problem together.


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Personally I think you're probably right. He probably cheated. I don't say that lightly. The thing is, the doc told him he had an std and gave him the treatment. If that happened to me* I'd be in my wife's face questioning how I got an STD.* But he didn't do that. Instead he swept it under the rug, minimized it to get you treated as well. That's pretty good evidence, to me, that he assumed that he was the one to bring it to the relationship.


Thank you WOM - 
re bold above. When I put this to him H said it never entered his head that I might have been unfaithful and caught the STD !!!

(but I should point out that H was never actually tested for an STD. I had it and we both got treated for an "infection")


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> ...
> 
> So considering that all this happened twenty years ago, and considering that there's no evidence or reason to suspect there ever was an affair, and considering that his entire character didn't change and has stayed pretty consistent for twenty years, and considering there are not additional actions happening all at once to raise 'red flags'... it seems to me you have talked yourself into believing he has been unfaithful no matter what. Even if we were to assume the absolutely worst--namely that he did have an affair twenty-one years ago and caught an STD and gave it to you but never told you--what I see after that is twenty years of being a faithful and pretty patient husband!!
> 
> ...


I note what you say about my red flags not actually being red flags and what "real" red flags are. I do agree that in themselves they could well be my mind overreacting coz of my being cheated on by my one other intimate partner. Over the course of the marriage I have probably seen more red flags than I can count and I dismissed 99 per cent of them. Never mentioned them to my H, and even to this day, even with the STD issue which is really conflicting me I am not going around threating him with divorce left right and centre but yes I have thought about it, naturally. 

Over the course of the marriage, prior to 2011, on maximum 3 occasions I have pursued questions with my H about what I found to be odd behaviour which didn’t add up and I got nowhere. yes, they were isolated incidents. I let it go and we moved on. 

Have I given the impression that I am constantly harassing my H about infidelity and the STD over the length of our relationship? Since 2011 I realised that I had had an STD all those years ago, and that my H knew about this at the time. From this point on I find I am questioning all the stuff that I dismissed over the length of our relationship. Prior to 2011, I mostly told myself I was overreacting and wondering if maybe I shouldn’t have dismissed all these things. 

Perhaps I should have specifically explained that at the time I didn’t make a huge deal about the door being chained – I pondered about it for a bit but didn’t worry question my H about it coz I rationalised that I was overreacting due to past experience of being cheated on. ) 

In short I haven’t been accusing him, demanding a confession, threatening divorce or financial ruin for 20 years. I have judged myself as having a tendency to overreact and I have kept a lid on things for that reason. Right now my H doesn’t know the turmoil going on in my head coz following signing the statement as suggested by the counsellor last summer, I have never brought up the STD to him. Like I say, I try and keep a lid on things. Since 2011 I’m more insecure and I’m finding it harder now to keep a lid on since I found out I had had an STD and he knew and didn’t tell me. 

I may sound defensive, sorry togo on but I want it to be known that I’m not hounding him. True, my H may notice me quiet at times and he doesn’t tend to ask me what’s wrong coz he’s the type to ignore stuff or perhaps doesn’t want to really know – hoping things fizzle out to nothing without him needing to get involved. That’s his way. 

Yes I do have to consider his good points too. That’s part of the reason I don’t keep bringing up the STD but it’s on my mind a lot and I just want peace within my mind so I can move on and fell content and be happy with him. I am accepting now that a poly won’t really help me. I guess it’s the million dollar Q – how to gain peace of mind.


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