# Wife Escalates Confict to the Brink of Divorce and Then Can't Remember A Thing



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

My wife and I are involved in an ongoing dispute about money. Yesterday morning I shared some feelings with her in hopes of a better understanding for all and the situation quickly escalated into a series of personal attacks on me that were so vicious that my head is still spinning. This stuff was so bad no one should ever say it to anybody. Really deep criticism of me as a person in the context of comparisons with other men and other couples. She expressed complete disgust with me for being physically uncomfortable from having had my feelings hurt on past occasions. Total disrespect for me, my feeling, anything I have or do. This after threatening to move out last Wednesday which she decided would be too difficult for her. A complete lack of sympathy for any physical or emotional distress I may be feeling.

So I bring this up last night and she apologizes. Since there was a lot of different things said about a lot of subjects, I asked specifically what she was sorry about. She said she is like a lot of other people who say things and then can't remember what they(she) said. She has no recollection. But whatever she said, she is sorry for it.

I'm still having trouble getting through this. I don't feel closure because this whole laundry list of bad stuff is still sitting in my chest. Forgetting and not being able to own up to what one has said is making things difficult for me to get over.

Any suggestions as to where I might go from here?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

In all honesty, she appears to pretty much have really forgotten, at least until the next incident. She doesn't carry on like someone with a big grudge. I'm wondering if she has some kind of fractured personality maybe from some kind of trauma.

The big problem here is that we have one person who is allowed to say whatever awful thing comes into their head and their partner who is required to behave to a much higher standard. This creates a sense of unfairness in the relationship. Please help!


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Women operate emotionally and men operate logically. Women use emotional attacks on men because they cannot physically overpower them. This is genetic. She is attacking and you are buying into the attacks, which means her intent is realized. 
Where to go:
-- Do not allow your wife to speak to you in a disresptectful tone
-- Do not allow your wife's attacks to make you feel anytihng mental or physical (at least it can never show).
-- If it continues, tell her if you ever threaten a divorce again, this is what exactly what you will get... No discussion.

This above will end what you describe. Her behavor is typical of women. It's at the extreme end, becuase you enabled it for 10 years.


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## uhaul4mybaggage (Jul 20, 2010)

If she seriously can't remember, you may be right about the fractured personality idea. I know someone who actually has that. It sounds very close. Write down the things she said, and ask her if she remembers saying any of them. Get her into counseling to find out for sure. If she doesn't, she at least has some issues that need work anyway. You could go too. Good luck. 10 years is a long time to throw away, but you don't want to be miserable for the next 10 either.


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## Myopia1964 (Feb 10, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Women operate emotionally and men operate logically.



Ummm....I find this comment totally absurd and laughable. Men ALWAYS think their approach is the logical one and that they NEVER operate from a an emotional position. It's such a stereotype and it's completely wrong. There may be a difference in the way men and women express themselves but, in my experience, men are often just as emotional as women.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> In all honesty, she appears to pretty much have really forgotten, at least until the next incident. She doesn't carry on like someone with a big grudge. I'm wondering if she has some kind of fractured personality maybe from some kind of trauma.
> 
> The big problem here is that we have one person who is allowed to say whatever awful thing comes into their head and their partner who is required to behave to a much higher standard. This creates a sense of unfairness in the relationship. Please help!


Actually, it sounds like someone who isn't held accountable for what she says. Who has always found that it's okay for her to go off the handle and speak and behave however she likes with no consequence and that it's all okay as long as she says "sorry" later on. 

Frankly, I'm guessing she can remember just fine at least most of what she said, she's just not willing to give a sincere apology. Probably because she doesn't actually feel badly for her actions, since it sounds like a regular behavior for her. Of course she doesn't hold a grudge, what does she have to hold a grudge for? It sounds like she tears you to pieces until you retreat, so basically she "wins" every time. What does she have to be "mad" and hold grudges about if that's the case?

Next steps? When she behaves that way, walk away. Explain you'll continue the discussion when she can calm herself down. Check out some of the threads on the 180 and Manning Up. Until you no longer her allow her to treat you the way she does, the pattern is going to go on.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Myopia1964 said:


> Ummm....I find this comment totally absurd and laughable. Men ALWAYS think their approach is the logical one and that they NEVER operate from a an emotional position. It's such a stereotype and it's completely wrong. There may be a difference in the way men and women express themselves but, in my experience, men are often just as emotional as women.


So what is your explanation for the behavior described?


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Hicks said:


> So what is your explanation for the behavior described?


For the behavior described? I'd say she's operating with a pretty effective strategy for getting the outcome that she wants whenever he opens up the conversation to "discussing feelings to seek understanding and closure" I don't think she's operating _emotionally_ at all--volume, venom and emotions aren't interchangeable. 



> My wife and I are involved in an ongoing dispute about money.* Yesterday morning I shared some feelings with her in hopes of a better understanding for all *and the situation quickly escalated into a series of personal attacks on me that were so vicious that my head is still spinning. This stuff was so bad no one should ever say it to anybody. Really deep criticism of me as a person in the context of comparisons with other men and other couples. She expressed complete disgust with me for being physically uncomfortable from having had my feelings hurt on past occasions. Total disrespect for me, my feeling, anything I have or do. This after threatening to move out last Wednesday which she decided would be too difficult for her. A complete lack of sympathy for any physical or emotional distress I may be feeling.


and...



> I'm still having trouble getting through this. *I don't feel closure *because this whole laundry list of bad stuff is still sitting in my chest. Forgetting and not being able to own up to what one has said is making things difficult for me to get over.


I think in this case, 10-year-Hubby is reacting emotively and his wife is the one with a logical strategy for getting the outcomes she wants from their interactions. I'm guessing she's very aware that an outright personal attack will get him to back down about the issue at hand and distract him long enough for her to do whatever it was she wanted to all along. If that's not a logical approach, I don't know what is.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

COG, I agree totally with your first post. It is excellent.


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## Brewster 59 (Jun 19, 2010)

:iagree:


COGypsy said:


> For the behavior described? I'd say she's operating with a pretty effective strategy for getting the outcome that she wants whenever he opens up the conversation to "discussing feelings to seek understanding and closure" I don't think she's operating _emotionally_ at all--volume, venom and emotions aren't interchangeable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:iagree: totally spot on. The other thing to consider is that people are wired differently some people wear their emotions on their sleeve, they go off about what is bothering them and then its gone. Others are passive aggressive, they cant stand conflict so they dont say anything but will do things sneaky to pay that person back. I certainly dont think gender has anything to do with it.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

I think we do have some gender role reversal here just to confuse things and I'm not all that comfortable with it. This is certainly not any kind of stereotypical male/female thing. Also, if this is a conscious strategy, I don't think it has ever been shown to work. I was saying this last night. It is destructive and divisive and appears to be more of a compulsion than a strategy


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## Brewster 59 (Jun 19, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I think we do have some gender role reversal here just to confuse things and I'm not all that comfortable with it. This is certainly not any kind of stereotypical male/female thing. Also, if this is a conscious strategy, I don't think it has ever been shown to work. I was saying this last night. It is destructive and divisive and appears to be more of a compulsion than a strategy


Really? when she does this it doesnt get you to at least change the subject, or drop the issue? As for gender role reversal I dont think I believe in that. I know women that are controlling and I know men that are controlling. I know women that are stoic and I know men that are emotional. Im not saying you are any of these things.

So If this is not a tatic then she might be a person that wears her emotions on her sleeve and pretty much just says what she feels at the time. I was horrible about that when I was younger, in my older years I learned to keep quite or at least let things rest until I thought about them for a while.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

This is not gender role reversal. Women cannot physically dominate men, so they emotionally dominate them. What you are describing is normal, but has gotten extreme because you allowed it to get out of hand. You are being dominated. A women will emotionally dominate a man as far as he allows. They will keep pushing / testing over years and years where it gets worse and worse. It is not conscious, and she wants for you to stop it. Follow C0Gypsy's advice.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Hicks said:


> This is not gender role reversal. Women cannot physically dominate men, so they emotionally dominate them. What you are describing is normal, but has gotten extreme because you allowed it to get out of hand. You are being dominated. A women will emotionally dominate a man as far as he allows. They will keep pushing / testing over years and years where it gets worse and worse. It is not conscious, and she wants for you to stop it. Follow C0Gypsy's advice.


Problem is that you have some women(and men) who will either physically or verbally chase you down (further violating boundries) and basically harrass you into submission.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Sanity said:


> Problem is that you have some women(and men) who will either physically or verbally chase you down (further violating boundries) and basically harrass you into submission.


If he wants it to stop, he should try C0Gypsys advice, which is to stop accepting this treatment. Your statement implies he should do nothing and simply accept that it is some character flaw in his wife, which will provide zero improvements.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> If she truly can't remember, and it is that bad, maybe it is a stress reaction to some subconscious trigger left over from past trauma.


Most likely. To clarify, this is not something one can just stop accepting short of physical restraint or total dis-involvement, neither of which are on the table here. 

I am certainly not above enabling bad behavior, but I am doing no more to enable this than someone who live on the coast does to enable hurricanes.

What I'm looking for is a strategy to keep myself buoyant. A pile of resentment that can never come to closure is a heavy load to carry around. My first choice would be to get help from my partner. But if she really can't remember then we need to find another way for her to help. Absent that, I need ideas about how to proceed on my own. My current vision is to buy myself an expensive new car and maybe that's the best thing to do. Maybe someone can suggest something a little less expensive and less destructive


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Maybe you can try to increase your awareness of what is going on just prior to these episodes. And when they occur, if it is all at once or building up to it, how long it lasts observe any physical stuff going on with her...and the dates/times/locations where she has been prior to episode, etc. You have to play detective, and maybe she doesn't even know. She should be interested in figuring it out, because it really sounds like an unpleasant way to be!


Excellent idea, but easier said than done. Two of the recurring topics of her rage are:
1) Resentment over being asked to provide me with emotional support or be respectful of my feelings
2) Resentment over having to observe and/or maybe be inconvenienced due to my emotional discomfort

For example, at the suggestion of our mc (years ago) we mutually agreed and proceeded to engage in certain intimate behaviors. About 48-72 hrs later we had an unbelievably massive blowup, far and away more than anything we had experienced since we started seeing this guy.

I think the guy saw a causal relationship here and felt guilty about his role because the nature of our counseling changed from "find the cause and fix it" to "try to deal with what we have". He never mentioned the agreement or the blowup, sort of like it was untouchable or off-limits. And this guy is a phd in cognitive psych at a major university.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Most likely. To clarify, this is not something one can just stop accepting short of physical restraint or total dis-involvement, neither of which are on the table here.
> 
> I am certainly not above enabling bad behavior, but I am doing no more to enable this than someone who live on the coast does to enable hurricanes.


Is she strapping you to a chair while doing it?
You enable it by staying in her presence while not insisting that she speaks to you in a proper fashion.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Excellent idea, but easier said than done. Two of the recurring topics of her rage are:
> 1) Resentment over being asked to provide me with emotional support or be respectful of my feelings
> 2) Resentment over having to observe and/or maybe be inconvenienced due to my emotional discomfort
> 
> .


There is not a women on the planet who likes to see her man showing emotional discomfort. Not one. Her resentment turned to rage over the years of testing you, and you showing yourself to be emotionally weak.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Hicks said:


> Is she strapping you to a chair while doing it?
> You enable it by staying in her presence while not insisting that she speaks to you in a proper fashion.


I go through something similar with my husband.
"I don't remember saying that!"---having said VERY hurtful words (so this is not exclusive to women.)

whether s/he does or doesn't remember...
If you have never tried to just *walk away* when she rages, try it every time she gets nasty, and eventually she may realize it's not ok with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

While I think she may be using a stragedy agaisnt you, I would also believe that she honestly doesn't rememberwhat she said. Your description is a person who is worked up to such an emotional state that what she is saying, while maybe truely felt at the time (honesty leaking out), doesn't register.

Yes, you can walk away but if you want to try to address it, repeat what she said back to you.

She: "You're a %$%^& a-hole and a %#$ of a father!!!"

You (calmly): "I just want to make sure I heard you correctly. You said I was a %$%^& a-hole and a %#$ of a father, right?

The next day you can help her remember.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Hicks said:


> There is not a women on the planet who likes to see her man showing emotional discomfort. Not one. Her resentment turned to rage over the years of testing you, and you showing yourself to be emotionally weak.


There is not a man on this planet who likes to see his woman showing disrespect, saggy boobs and an opinion.

Ok enough of the generalizations Hicks. Do you expect men to just be stone cold robots in the face of his wifes habitual disrespect? Are you saying men should be like Vulcans all the time and not show emotion?


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

From my own personal experience I have come to realize that some people (men and women( do not know how to behave in a relationship and its our duty is to avoid having babies with these sociopaths. Let them die out and not pass those nasty genes to another generation.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Sanity said:


> There is not a man on this planet who likes to see his woman showing disrespect, saggy boobs and an opinion.
> 
> Ok enough of the generalizations Hicks. Do you expect men to just be stone cold robots in the face of his wifes habitual disrespect? Are you saying men should be like Vulcans all the time and not show emotion?


Hell NO. My point is disrespect and emotional outbursts on the part of a woman are best dealt with by a man displaying emotional strength. It would be wrong for a man not to ever show any emotion. 

10Yrs options are:
-- Do everything the same and nothing will change
-- Decide his wife is a Sociopath and therefore nothing can be changed.
-- Change his tactics to react with some strength, which agrees with the direct feedback of his wife and therapist.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Hicks said:


> Is she strapping you to a chair while doing it?
> You enable it by staying in her presence while not insisting that she speaks to you in a proper fashion.


With all due respect, you're really not understanding the reality of the situation at hand. On Easter morning a couple years ago, I was trying to get away by locking myself in the bathroom and she broke the door down. A couple years ago she chased me up and down 4 flights of stairs. When I perpare to leave, she rages about my leaving and even last Monday she raged about my having left during previous abuse sessions. There is no getting in a word edgewise. I used to scream and curse at her at the top of my lungs and tell her to get out and go away and go eff herself and it didn't make a dent. I quit this on my end because I found myself feeling guilty about it and I have enough problems already


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Sanity said:


> From my own personal experience I have come to realize that some people (men and women( do not know how to behave in a relationship and its our duty is to avoid having babies with these sociopaths. Let them die out and not pass those nasty genes to another generation.


Too late for that now


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Chris Taylor said:


> She: "You're a %$%^& a-hole and a %#$ of a father!!!"
> 
> You (calmly): "I just want to make sure I heard you correctly. You said I was a %$%^& a-hole and a %#$ of a father, right?
> 
> The next day you can help her remember.


This is a good idea but any taking any action during the event is iffy. I really can't get in more than a couple words and saying anything calmly is an extraordinary challenge. 

So I end up in a situation where the next day I go down a laundry list of the most awful stuff imaginable and ask if she remembers. The interaction takes on a kind of gestapo interrogation character and I don't get much relief in the end. In the worst case if she remembers, she tries to justify what she said and we argue about that or she tries to divert the attention to me and my imperfections. But this still may be my best bet


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

COGypsy said:


> Actually, it sounds like someone who isn't held accountable for what she says. Who has always found that it's okay for her to go off the handle and speak and behave however she likes with no consequence and that it's all okay as long as she says "sorry" later on.
> 
> Frankly, I'm guessing she can remember just fine at least most of what she said, she's just not willing to give a sincere apology. Probably because she doesn't actually feel badly for her actions, since it sounds like a regular behavior for her. Of course she doesn't hold a grudge, what does she have to hold a grudge for? It sounds like she tears you to pieces until you retreat, so basically she "wins" every time. What does she have to be "mad" and hold grudges about if that's the case?
> 
> Next steps? When she behaves that way, walk away. Explain you'll continue the discussion when she can calm herself down. Check out some of the threads on the 180 and Manning Up. Until you no longer her allow her to treat you the way she does, the pattern is going to go on.


Actually, it would be OK if we could talk in more detail about what was said and an apology was offered for each subject.

It is silly to think there are no consequences here. The consequences are massive and pervasive. These actions are truly awful in their destructiveness. There is not a day goes by in which the negative consequences of this behavior are felt. Unfortunately, she is still not able to stop it.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

It is sexist to all women when someone writes, "Women will do x, they can't help it." Please refrain from making unproven assertions about what is "genetically programmed" into women.

Lots of men experience anger frequently, and anger is an emotion. 

Women are not "more emotional." They are simply often socialized to be more comfortable expressing a variety of emotions--this does not mean they feel more emotions or use logic less. Women may cry more or express affection more (but a lot of women do not cry much, and I know for a fact that I cry less than men I know).

I just do not understand why people cling so hard to sexist assumptions. Not so long ago, some Americans believed there were multiple "hard wired" differences between whites and other "races," but we know that isn't true. The assumption that modern behaviors "must" have genetic roots is just so bizarre to me--not logical at all, really. If it is hard wired, it looks exactly the same everywhere and there are no individual variations. Like the way birds fly, or specific birds build their nests. That is "hard wired." Women "emotionally dominating men" because they are physically weaker? If so, why don't all women do it? Why doesn't it look the same all the time?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

I'm not on board here with any specific character traits being attributed exclusively to one sex or the other. But I do have a set of sex role characteristics that I am most comfortable in dealing with in relationships. 

In general, I think the raging anger verbal/emotional abuse thing is far more often a male activity. When I said I though there was a sex role reversal here it's because my wife breaks things and then forgets about it which leaves me with the job putting it back together such as I can. In my traditional view of sex roles in relationships, the man breaks stuff and the woman fixes things in relationships


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## Brewster 59 (Jun 19, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> It is sexist to all women when someone writes, "Women will do x, they can't help it." Please refrain from making unproven assertions about what is "genetically programmed" into women.
> 
> Lots of men experience anger frequently, and anger is an emotion.
> 
> ...


These guys are fools that think it is hardwired, and hell no all women dont try to dominate men emotionally or physicially. This is all about boundries, I would refuse to be in any relationship that I didnt have 50% of the say. Really the ideal relationship would be that both partners put their 100% for the good of the family but Im not sure that exists,


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> In general, I think the raging anger verbal/emotional abuse thing is far more often a male activity. When I said I though there was a sex role reversal here it's because my wife breaks things and then forgets about it which leaves me with the job putting it back together such as I can. In my traditional view of sex roles in relationships, the man breaks stuff and the woman fixes things in relationships


I think from what you've said here and in your other posts, both in this thread and the other, the only real action you can take is to recognize seriously that you (and likely your children) are victims of verbal, emotional and financial abuse. And recognize that those are every bit as real and serious as physical abuse. Then you start reading and responding to situations with that knowledge. Basically that abusers will not change until they want to, and that they will do whatever it takes to maintain power and control over their victims. Whether it's screaming obscenities and cutting your feelings to the quick or busting down doors to force you to listen to it, they'll escalate their actions to keep you under their control in order to feel empowered, loved and good about themselves. Moreover, there's really no way to ever please them and stop the rages/insults/etc because they'll always change the rules. I can dig up some good resources from other threads if you like, but it sounds more and more as though her behavior pattern is pretty predictable in that framework...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Hubby, the dysfunctional behaviors you are describing constitute several of the nine traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). That is, it sounds like your W has several of those traits -- perhaps most of them -- at a strong level. Whether they are so strong as to meet the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD" is something that only a professional can determine. 

This does not mean, however, that a strong occurrence of these traits is difficult to spot in a woman you've been living with for years. You can spot strong selfishness and grandiosity, for example, without being able to diagnose NPD (Narcissistic PD). You can spot extreme shyness without being able to diagnose AvPD (Avoidant PD). And you can spot a drama queen without knowing how to diagnose Histrionic PD.

Likewise, you will be able to recognize strong occurrences of the BPD traits after you read about them. I therefore will discuss a few of the traits that seem applicable. If they sound familiar and ring a bell, I would suggest your reading more about BPD to see if most traits apply. Toward that end, I will give you a link below that may be helpful.


Ten_year_hubby said:


> I shared some feelings with her in hopes of a better understanding for all and the situation quickly escalated into a series of personal attacks on me that were so vicious that my head is still spinning. This stuff was so bad no one should ever say it to anybody.


Vicious verbal abuse is one of the hallmarks of a BPDer (i.e., a person having strong BPD traits). The primary reason for this is that a BPDer does all-or-nothing thinking, wherein she classifies everyone as "all good" or "all bad." And she will reclassify a person from one polar extreme to the other in ten seconds based on a minor infraction -- or a misperceived comment. Hence, when she is "splitting" you black, she really believes you are evil and will treat you accordingly. Of course, this black-white view of other people wrecks havoc on a BPDer's personal relationships. This is why BPDers usually have no long-term close friends.


> A complete lack of sympathy for any physical or emotional distress I may be feeling.


If your W is a BPDer, it would not be surprising to see her showing much sympathy -- and, perhaps, great generosity -- for complete strangers, casual friends, and business associates. Lord help them, however, if anyone decides to draw close to her, becoming a "close friend." Anyone who loves her poses two great threats because a BPDer has two great fears: engulfment and abandonment. Significantly, strangers and casual friends do not trigger either of these fears because there is no intimacy that can engulf her and there is no LTR that can be abandoned. This is why it is common to see a BPDer treat complete strangers with compassion and generosity -- and then go right home that night to abuse her loved ones (all of whom pose both of those threats).

You may have seen the engulfment fear, for example, when the two of you performed that intimacy exercise that a counselor had recommended (discussed in one of your other threads). With a BPDer, you usually will be treated the worst immediately following an intimate evening or a great weekend. Because a BPDer has such a weak and unstable sense of who she is, intimacy makes her feel engulfed and suffocated -- as though she is vanishing into your strong personality. She therefore will create an argument out of thin air to push you away, giving her breathing space. Hence, if your W is a BPDer, it would not be surprising that your experiement -- which took intimacy to a new higher level -- resulted in one of the worst blowups you've ever seen with her.


> She says that she is "afraid of me" and that she was afraid to ask me in advance about going out even though she knew long before. She also said that her fearfulness was the reason for several other inconsiderate or divisive things she had done.... I have a wallflower, doormat type of personality ... and I can't imagine anyone being afraid of me.


Like you, I am a caregiver to a fault (i.e., I keep helping even when it is to my great detriment to do so). Also like you, I had a W who frequently used the "afraid of your reaction" argument to justify a whole list of foolish decisions on her part. I spent $6,000, for example, on a number of different sewing machines -- none of which she would actually use. When I would ask why, she always explained that she had bought the wrong machine and thus had to replace it with a better one. When I asked why she had chosen a defective product, she always claimed that she really did not want it but "was afraid" of my reaction if she had bought the better machine. 

Because my exW is a BPDer, and because BPDer are emotionally unstable, she would be thrilled with her reckless purchases for two weeks. Always two weeks (just like her mother). Then it was the wrong color, wrong size, or otherwise defective. And, because she picked them out herself, her only excuse was that she "was afraid" to buy what she had really wanted.

Because a BPDer has very low self esteem, the last thing she wants to recognize is one more thing to add to the long list of things she hates about herself. A BPDer therefore is loath to admit to a mistake or take responsibility for her own actions. Instead, she forever chooses to think of herself as a "victim." This distorted view of the world can only be maintained, of course, if she always has a "perpetrator" (i.e., you) standing nearby. 

Moreover, she carries an enormous amount of anger inside -- which she has been carrying since early childhood. It is this terrible anger that you see when a BPDer throws a temper tantrum, which typically lasts about five hours. This childish behavior occurs because her emotional development was frozen at about age four. The result is that she has little control over her emotions and she fails to challenge the validity of her intense feelings. That is, if your W is a BPDer, she likely believes most of the outrageous things coming out of her mouth because, to her, the intense feelings constitute reality.


> In general, I think the raging anger verbal/emotional abuse thing is far more often a male activity.


Such raging behavior is a hallmark of BPD, which for several decades was believed to affect far more women than men (probably because the raging men tended to get diagnosed as having Antisocial PD, not BPD). However, a recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that about 6% of both men and women have a lifetime occurrence of BPD at the diagnostic level. I would not be surprised if another 4% have it so strongly -- although below the diagnostic threshold -- that you would not want to be married to them. If so, about 10% of both genders have such traits at a strong level.


> Forgetting and not being able to own up to what one has said is making things difficult for me to get over.


As I noted above, a BPDer usually will not own up to anything. Even when she does acknowledge having done something wrong, she will take it away in the next breath -- by giving you an explanation that makes you marvel that any adult human being can say such a thing while holding a straight face. 

As to the "forgetfulness," a BPDer tends to dissociate (i.e., do "splitting") far more than most people. It therefore is fairly common for them to not remember things a spouse can recall vividly. Do you remember the time you were driving on the highway and suddenly realized you could not remember a thing about the three lighted intersections you passed through? Well, that experience -- wherein the conscious part of your mind was day dreaming while your subconscious did all of the driving -- is called dissociation. BPDers do this big time as a way of escaping an unpleasant reality.

If these traits sound familiar, I suggest you read my description of what it is like to live with a BPDer in GTRR's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...depressed-its-always-my-fault.html#post188319. Several of my posts in that thread provide links to BPD articles (targeted to the nonBPD spouses) written by professionals. Keep in mind that I am not a psychologist. Rather, I am just a man who spent a small fortune taking his exW to weekly sessions with six different psychologists over a 15 year period. Of course, I would be glad to try to answer any questions you have about BPD here in your thread. Meanwhile, Caregiver, please start taking better care of yourself.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks Uptown. This is a real eye opener and it has taken me a while to digest. We could have paid for a year of college with all the counseling we have had since we got married. Not one of these guys mentioned BPD but now I'm amazed at the overlay. It helps to see this all laid out. We have polar extremes, abandonment and engulfment issues, raging, dissociation. This explains a lot.

My question is where to go from here. I know we have problems but what can I do about it? Can we come back from dissociation and remember what has happened?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> We could have paid for a year of college with all the counseling we have had since we got married. Not one of these guys mentioned BPD but now I'm amazed at the overlay.


As I explained in the thread you read, I spent a small fortune taking my exW to six different psychologists and two MCs for 15 years. Like your therapists, none of mine ever mentioned BPD. Yet, when I finally read books about BPD, they read like a story of my exW's life. 

At the BPD websites targeted to us nonBPD partners, a common complaint is that the therapists would not tell them what they were dealing with. Moreover, a Texas law firm openly cautions its divorce clients against mentioning "BPD" in court, explaining that it will be near impossible to get a therapist to testify candidly about it. The firm gives four reasons why therapists are loath to make such a diagnosis at http://www.bonnebridges.com/pdf/Borderline_Personality_Disorder.pdf. One reason is that is that insurance companies rarely cover BPD treatments, forcing therapists to "diagnose" it instead as PTSD, depression, bipolar, or some other incidental effect that is covered. Another reason is that therapists know that nearly all BPDers (particularly those who are high functioning) will immediately quit therapy on hearing this dreaded diagnosis.

You likely saw this extreme reluctance to call a spade a spade when your intimacy experiment -- suggested by your clinical psychologist -- blew up in your face as well as his. I suspect that your psych's strange behavior -- changing tactics and pretending that the experiment had never occurred -- was his way of covering over the likelihood that your W's fear of engulfment had been triggered by the intense intimacy -- something he should have anticipated but recognized, only in hindsight, as an indication of her BPD traits. Hence, if you want a candid professional opinion, my advice is to go for a session or two with a clinical psychologist on your own -- without your W being there. When you describe her behavior, the therapist will not be able to render a firm diagnosis in her absence. But he is far more likely to speak candidly, saying "it sounds to me like she is suffering from ...."


> Can we come back from dissociation and remember what has happened?


No, usually not. But you knew that already. In the example I gave above, you drove through three lighted intersections but have no recollection whatsoever because your subconscious was doing the driving. All of us dissociate in that way probably several times a day. Another example is the time you walked into the kitchen and, on opening the refrigerator door, suddenly realized you had no idea what you had gone in there to get. Again, your conscious was busy daydreaming while your subconscious carefully walked you into the kitchen.

With the unconscious driving example, you likely will never remember going through those intersections. With the refrigerator example, however, you probably reconstructed in your mind what you had set out to get. So, with the milder situations, your W may be able to reconstruct pieces of the event. But with other instances, she will recall nothing at all. 

An extreme example of this occurring is DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder -- what used to be called "Multiple Personality Disorder"). Indeed, when going to one psychologist that my exW and I were seeing weekly for five years, I frequently complained that it seemed like my wife suffered DID because she had no recollection of events and promises made only a few days earlier. 

Hence, my exW's BPD behavior always struck me as being half-way to DID (as a subjective impression, not a fact). That said, I would have driven myself crazy if I had attempted to sort out all the forgotten statements and events from those that were simply lied about. A BPDer typically will not hesitate to lie when cornered on an issue. So I never really could distinguish lies from misperceptions and dissociations.

With dissociation, you do not aim to increase her recollection of the events. Rather, the most you can hope for is that she will seek therapy that trains her techniques for staying in the present moment instead of escaping into day dreams. But, of course, such training takes a long time and requires an enormous commitment that maybe 1 in 100 high-functioning BPDers are willing to make.


> My question is where to go from here. I know we have problems but what can I do about it?


My usual advice, when the spouse has no interest in acknowledging her BPD traits and learning how to control them, is to leave the toxic relationship and get a divorce. When there are children, however, I never suggest that. I believe you should do whatever is in the best interests of your three children -- and only you can decide what that requires.

As I explained in the thread you read, my experience with marriage counseling is that it is worse than useless when you are married to a BPDer. Teaching a BPDer communication skills -- absent years of therapy from a clinical psychologist -- only makes her better at manipulating and controlling you.

To gather more information, I suggest you go to a BPD website targeted to "Nons" like you and me. In particular, I suggest you participate at BPDfamily.com -- the most active site I've found for Nons. There are a dozen separate message boards addressing various aspects of BPD relationships. The two boards of greatest interest to you likely will be the "Undecided" board and the "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" board. At the latter board, you will receive help from dozens of guys who can tell your what is (or is not) working for them and what the effect is on their children.

I also suggest that you leave the house when she has her worst tantrums. Particularly scary was the time she broke down the door after chasing you from room to room. Also scary was the time she chased you down four flights of stairs. I say this because, when I retreated to a bedroom for safety, my exW started destroying the door. When I pushed her away from the door, she tripped and fell backward on the floor. 

Because she was on blood thinner, the push left bruises on her chest. She called the police, showed them the bruises, and had me arrested on a Saturday morning, which meant I was in jail for nearly three days until I could go before a judge and be arraigned on Monday afternoon. During that time, she was able to obtain a protective order that (with automatic extensions) barred me from returning to my own home for 18 months -- the time it takes to get a divorce here in my State.

Finally, I note that, at these websites targeted to us Nons, the conventional wisdom is that you should not tell your spouse she "has BPD." If she does have strong BPD traits, she almost certainly will project the accusation back onto you. Projection works successfully to protect her fragile ego only because it works at the subconscious level. Her conscious mind therefore will be unaware she is projecting and will believe the false claim in her projection. That is, she will immediately be convinced that YOU have BPD. 

I knew this when I told my exW that I believe she has BPD. Even so, I told her because we had already separated and I did not want to leave any stone unturned in my 15 years of efforts to help her. Of course, she immediately believed that I am the one who has this disorder. Indeed, four years have since passed and she still believes it. 

She has been going to the same psychologist now for nine years -- a psych who has never told her the name of her disorder. Whenever I would ask, the psych always said "I don't believe in using labels." At the end of my five years with that psych, I got angry and insisted on a real diagnosis -- at which point she reluctantly replied that it was a "thought disorder." Of course, that is exactly what BPD is.


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

I also have BPD and (embarrassingly enough) have raged (they call it splitting) at my hubby many times. I feel bad for you because when someone rages at you, it is a horrible horrible experience. I have said some of the most disgusting things known to man, it is like all my hate is directed at him at this time. Then, later on, when I calm down, I feel so low and crappy and disgusted at myself for doing that to him. It is very embarrassing and I would rather I Just forget it even happened. Maybe that is why your wife claims she forgets. If your wife has BPD then she is probably raging because something has clicked and she is re-experiencing a trauma she has had from her childhood - maybe its abandonment, or she feels emotionally invalidated, or something like that.

They say the best way to handle BPD raging people is to be calm and logical. I agree with that - my husband will say "I will talk to you later when you've calmed down, and you can talk to me respectfully" and then he leaves the room. I REALLY don't like that at the time (in that raging mindset) but then when I calm down I realise that was the best thing he could do. If you challenge us BPDers we will escalate and then explode. So with my hubby doing this, my rage is shorter in duration (nothing for it to feed on) and he also keeps his self respect. Then later when I HAVE calmed down, we can discuss it normally lol. Its like he nips it in the bud.

So even if your wife isnt BPD you could try this. It also makes it known (loud and clear) that you won't be spoken to in such a way. So you keep your integrity and self respect, and you aren't enabling her to keep at you all the time with the nasty comments. She will probably respect you a bit more if you do this too. Just make sure you do it consistently: every time she goes off, do it.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Uptown said:


> As I explained in the thread you read, I spent a small fortune taking my exW to six different psychologists and two MCs for 15 years. Like your therapists, none of mine ever mentioned BPD. Yet, when I finally read books about BPD, they read like a story of my exW's life.
> 
> At the BPD websites targeted to us nonBPD partners, a common complaint is that the therapists would not tell them what they were dealing with. Moreover, a Texas law firm openly cautions its divorce clients against mentioning "BPD" in court, explaining that it will be near impossible to get a therapist to testify candidly about it. The firm gives four reasons why therapists are loath to make such a diagnosis at http://www.bonnebridges.com/pdf/Borderline_Personality_Disorder.pdf. One reason is that is that insurance companies rarely cover BPD treatments, forcing therapists to "diagnose" it instead as PTSD, depression, bipolar, or some other incidental effect that is covered. Another reason is that therapists know that nearly all BPDers (particularly those who are high functioning) will immediately quit therapy on hearing this dreaded diagnosis.
> 
> You likely saw this extreme reluctance to call a spade a spade when your intimacy experiment -- suggested by your clinical psychologist -- blew up in your face as well as his. I suspect that your psych's strange behavior -- changing tactics and pretending that the experiment had never occurred -- was his way of covering over the likelihood that your W's fear of engulfment had been triggered by the intense intimacy -- something he should have anticipated but recognized, only in hindsight, as an indication of her BPD traits. Hence, if you want a candid professional opinion, my advice is to go for a session or two with a clinical psychologist on your own -- without your W being there. When you describe her behavior, the therapist will not be able to render a firm diagnosis in her absence. But he is far more likely to speak candidly, saying "it sounds to me like she is suffering from ....


Thanks again Uptown. I think you and I seem to have had a lot of similar experiences. My take on my therapist experiences is that these are some smart guys and they probably thought that if they went down the path of "calling a spade a spade" I would walk straight out of their office, call my lawyer and file for divorce. And I probably would have. Not exactly a good result for their marriage counseling businesses. Also, the condition is not whole life debilitating, the effect is mostly in the closest relationships, especially intimate ones.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

HelloooNurse said:


> I also have BPD and (embarrassingly enough) have raged (they call it splitting) at my hubby many times. I feel bad for you because when someone rages at you, it is a horrible horrible experience. I have said some of the most disgusting things known to man, it is like all my hate is directed at him at this time. Then, later on, when I calm down, I feel so low and crappy and disgusted at myself for doing that to him. It is very embarrassing and I would rather I Just forget it even happened. Maybe that is why your wife claims she forgets. If your wife has BPD then she is probably raging because something has clicked and she is re-experiencing a trauma she has had from her childhood - maybe its abandonment, or she feels emotionally invalidated, or something like that.
> 
> They say the best way to handle BPD raging people is to be calm and logical. I agree with that - my husband will say "I will talk to you later when you've calmed down, and you can talk to me respectfully" and then he leaves the room. I REALLY don't like that at the time (in that raging mindset) but then when I calm down I realise that was the best thing he could do. If you challenge us BPDers we will escalate and then explode. So with my hubby doing this, my rage is shorter in duration (nothing for it to feed on) and he also keeps his self respect. Then later when I HAVE calmed down, we can discuss it normally lol. Its like he nips it in the bud.
> 
> So even if your wife isnt BPD you could try this. It also makes it known (loud and clear) that you won't be spoken to in such a way. So you keep your integrity and self respect, and you aren't enabling her to keep at you all the time with the nasty comments. She will probably respect you a bit more if you do this too. Just make sure you do it consistently: every time she goes off, do it.


HelloooNurse, Thanks for your helpful words. Being calm and logical is one of my personality strengths so I'm glad to be on the right track. Your husband's tactic is sensible to rational people and several other forum contributors have suggested this to me. It's really great that you and your husband have found something that works for you and believe me, no one could be happier for you both than me. 

But I assure you all, we are not understanding the whole situation here. Any attempt by me to disconnect from the raging causes it to be prolonged and amplified (if you can believe that). Even worse, it causes her to hold a grudge and provides a new issue for future rages. It may in fact be the only accusation made during the rages that is based on undistorted fact. 

Having read some of the new resources Uptown suggested to me, my current explanation of this phenomenon is that when I remove my attention or leave during her rage, I trigger her fear of abandonment which is heightened at the time and it makes things even worse. I see evidence that the strong feelings she has during this time makes her think what she is saying is really really important and I should be listening. She has even said on several occasions that we are "talking". I never understood this before, but I believe she believes what she says and she is completely unaware (at the time) of the scope of her behavior and how inappropriate and destructive it is. Recently, I specifically asked her (in the rational state) why my breaking off during her rage is so important to her, why it makes her so angry and why she is willing to basically put her entire marriage on the line over it. So far, she is unable to answer this, not one word.


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