# 13 years of marriage, 6 other guys.



## searcher (Jul 22, 2011)

I've been REALLY impressed with this forum and the awesome interaction you have going on here. I'm totally new here, so I don't know what to do but just dive in. My hope is that by getting some unbiased feedback from you, I can work out some of the tangles in my brain here 

About 7 years ago my wife broke up with me and started going out with other guys. Not sure how many. There were a couple I knew about, but there might have been more. We had been married for 5 years at the time. We got married really young. I responded by having some fun of my own. No relationships, just screwing around a bit. We both decided we loved each other and wanted to make our marriage work. 

We got back together, had two kids and things were fantastic. Then she started freaking out again about a year after our second child was born and moved out for a couple weeks. Then she came back. Then about a year ago, she left me yet again. She's dated at least three other guys (full on PAs with all of them) since she moved out. 

I don't know any of this because of snooping around. She's told me openly. She made it VERY clear she wanted to divorce, but she wanted to remain civil and maintain a working relationship, because we have kids and we're going to be in each other's lives no matter what. 

I've gone through a very intense grieving period and have moved on. She has sent me very clear signals over the years that she either cannot or will not be in a mature relationship with me. Her reasons for leaving have varied widely from "i am freaking out and need some space" to "you work too much" to pretty much any excuse you can come up with. 

I'm the first to admit, I am not perfect. But every time things get rough, she doesn't have a history of wanting to work on things. she has a history of being passive aggressive, moving out and then coming back. 

I have kids with this girl. And candidly, I love her. I always will. But I can't help but feel at this point she actually needs to be on her own. I feel I've been very forgiving and reasonable. Almost 13 years of marriage, and she's left me three times and cheated on me at least half a dozen times.

Now, she wants to come back again. In the past, even after the cheating I've always looked at her and felt love. I've always considered her family. Now, I literally feel nothing. I miss her, but I dread talking with her. I still have an intense desire to WANT to be with her. I want to want her. I think it would be ideal for our kids also. But straight up...I don't know how to even conjure up romantic feelings for this girl any more. I just don't know how to do it. I feel like I'm completely tapped out. 

How do I tell this girl, who I love, who is the mother of my children, that I simply cannot be with her any more? She's convinced that counseling and earnest effort can rebuild our relationship. What a clusterf*ck. What would you do?


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## searcher (Jul 22, 2011)

Plus, so sorry I ended up writing a "book" here. I kept it as short as I know how


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

It is over my friend. You have moved on. Well done. 

She doesn't get to mess with your heart any more.

Unless you want to break your heart all over again?
Your second choice. The fallback guy. Tough to hear. I was 25 years married and only just realized I had been "settled for" 

offline now for 3 days..


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## searcher (Jul 22, 2011)

Can't say I'm happy moving on. I guess my main hangup is the kids. They got dragged into this, and it's all so unnecessary. I totally miss her, but every time she calls me, it's drama. 

I have to be honest. If I truly felt she wanted or was able to be in a real relationship (I would have to learn and grow myself...I get that), then I would go for it. I just can't help but seriously doubt our odds at this point. I mean, c'mon. I believe people can change, but how many times to do you around in a circle before saying enough is enough? 

Thanks for the input, ing. Much appreciated


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## BigBri (Jul 22, 2011)

Isn't this considered an open marriage? I mean, on her part at least.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

searcher said:


> Can't say I'm happy moving on. I guess my main hangup is the kids. They got dragged into this, and it's all so unnecessary. I totally miss her, but every time she calls me, it's drama.
> 
> I have to be honest. If I truly felt she wanted or was able to be in a real relationship (I would have to learn and grow myself...I get that), then I would go for it. I just can't help but seriously doubt our odds at this point. I mean, c'mon. I believe people can change, but how many times to do you around in a circle before saying enough is enough?
> 
> Thanks for the input, ing. Much appreciated


Sounds like they were already dragged into this on several occasions, I think your words are wise I think you have detached and emotionally she sounds detached too, either she, or both of you, seem to be just holding on for the convenience factor of living in the same house but if its not working for you anymore you have every right to end it.


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## ViperStorm (Jul 11, 2011)

While you have not detached completely nor voluntarily it sounds like you have made that huge step. Children always complicates things but is it really worth what you have gone through and sounds like you could easily repeat? Sometimes a couple staying married isn't the best thing for the children. If you can't be happy married your kids will know it. I give you tons of credit though. I do believe people can change but that normally will only occur when there is a real threat to them if they don't. In relationships I also feel that if a person has matured that the change is possible. In your case what has led to these PA's and separations. How much of it is you, your relationship, or your wife? You deserve lots of credit - you've been dumped on many times, you've made a huge choice to move on, and yet you are still highly sensitive to her. Personally, I think you need to look at this without the kids - if you are feeling how you are describing it definitely seems like time to move on. I can't tell you what to do because in a lot of ways you have done more than I ever could. I would say that if you decide not to move forward that you find a way to really be as sincere, honest, and as sensitive as you can. Not so much for her but if you don't I think you will second guess yourself to no end.


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## Ember (Jul 17, 2011)

I am so sorry! There is NO reason for you to put up with this behavior! Move on, please!


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

What I see is a woman who is shopping to trade up. Unfortunately her experiences with the OM (other men) have not been successful so she then expresses a desire to return to you. That is until the cycle repeats itself.

I see you growing tired of the cycle of her leaving and returning. The question is *how many more of these destructive cycles are you willing to endure?*


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

morituri said:


> What I see is a woman who is shopping to trade up. Unfortunately her experiences with the OM (other men) have not been successful so she then expresses a desire to return to you. That is until the cycle repeats itself.
> 
> I see you growing tired of the cycle of her leaving and returning. The question is *how many more of these destructive cycles are you willing to enduref?*


:iagree:

You are her second choice while she's in between boyfriends. When she finds "the one" or her "soulmate schmoopie", you won't see her again.

Better kick her to the curb before you catch a serious incurable STD.


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## confused59 (Jun 28, 2011)

I guess the only thing i can say, coming from divorced parents, is that divorce is not the end of the world for kids. I think you have to take care of yourself first. this is obviously a very hard situation, but your kids can be much happier in a setting where your parents are divorced and happy, versus togethor and miserable. Like they said before, you are the second choice, and you don't deserve that. it's not like there was a one slip up. this has gone on for a long time and multiple times. just my 2 cents, but you need to evaluate what YOU want out of your life/marriage, what would make you happy, and what is best for you and your children. you have already started to detach, now you need to figure out the best thing for you/your kids.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

You and your wife are a perfect example of a major problem in today's society

Kids getting married way to young---people shouldn't get married till they are in their late 20's, they should go out and sow their wild oats, do the datings scene, and have fun---then maybe at about 26 or 27, start looking for a relationship

At 26 or 27, spouses should not have been in an 8 to 10 yr old mge., that has already gone stale

You guys should part ways, do what is best for both of you as to child support, and move on----

Your wife seems to already have spread her wild oats, IMHO, get your D., and enjoy life for a while, ON YOUR OWN, AS A SINGLE----go out and just have a good time, and be FREE


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I know a woman like your wife. She likes cheating for cheating's sake & she will never stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

What would I do?

Cut her loose immediately. And get the most effective lawyer I can find to get custody of the kids and throw her and her self-destructive lifestyle to the curb. 

Actually I would have a long time earlier, but to me cheating is simply a deal breaker, 1st time is the last time, as I will never accept such disrespect from my woman.

But that is just me, and that is not important.

More importantly, I will ask you, what do YOU want to do?

I will encourage you, and any good man reading this, to make yourself your own priority, search and find YOUR happiness.

And for your children, be the shining example and good father to them as you can. Show them their father is worthy of respect, not worthy to be cheated on or to have to put up with such grevious disrespect.

And when you put YOURself and YOUR happiness first, and put into place the life YOU vision and desire from your own leadership, you will be in the healthy, confident emotional state to be very attractive to the kind of woman that will treat with the respect, and that you can build an incredible sexual and satisfying relationship, built on integrity. 

All good men reading this, you should expect nothing less!

And the advice about STDs, take it to heart. This woman is rolling dice that you do NOT want to use gambling with your own health, the number of guys she has been with probably more than you want to know.

You are now in the place to make the good decisions that will allow you to move on to the road to happiness and bliss, even though these decisions will be hard and painful.

I wish you well.


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## searcher (Jul 22, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. It really is very much appreciated!

BigBri - It's funny you should mention open marriage. She talked about wanting that. The thing that makes it impossible to figure out is that want she "wants" changes dramatically from time to time. 

Lon - She actually moved out. Hasn't lived here for months. She never filed. I was just getting back to "normal"...whatever that is, and now she says she's turned a new leaf and wants to work things out. I hate to admit it, but I would really like to work things out, but for god's sake, I just don't know if it's worth it.

ViperStorm - That's really smart what you said...sometimes it's best for kids for you to NOT stay married. I hear ya. I guess my thoughts are that this girl is gonna be in my life, very regularly, no matter what. And I want my kids to know their mother. So why not work it out as a marriage if possible? But then again, I feel like we've been down this road before. More than once. And how can it be a "real" marriage if both of you aren't all in? Damn what a mess!

Ember - Thanks  I'm workin on it. 

morituri - That's a GREAT question! I guess the rational answer is that I'm not able to go another round. Straight up. The emotional answer is that she can be such a beautiful woman and a great mother. She can be so thoughtful and giving. I love being with her, but at her core she's just never happy. I used to work a lot. Made lots of money, etc. She hated that I worked so much. Then I switched gears and worked a "normal" job. She hated that because we didn't have as much money. Now she has a job that earns about as much as me, and she hates that she has to work. 

You're totally right that she's trying to trade up. She's always looking outside herself for something to "make" her happy. I feel bad, because what she's looking for literally doesn't exist. 

lordmayhem - It feels so weird to face it, but you're right. What's such a shame though is that she's never just happy where she is. I have to admit, if she was truly happy with someone else, I'd be ok with that. But I feel by coming back on working on our relationship, she's just gonna repeat the pattern. She's never happy where she is. Everyone is her second choice. 

confused59 - Right on. Thanks for your insight! I believe in my kids, and I feel they'll be fine if I'm straight with them and make sure they understand both their parents love them to no limit. I would be with her if I felt like it was possible for it to be a healthy situation. She still hasn't filed, even after almost a year. I hate to be the one to initiate a divorce. This is her drama. 

jnj express - It's true, she was barely 20 when we got married. And I'm only a couple years older than her. Totally...way too young for this sh*t. 

runs like dog - I believe people can change. But should I be her lab rat? I feel like I've already played that role for a while now. I honestly don't think she does this maliciously. She doesn't go out and think "I'm gonna really f*ck him over today". No, she's just dealing with some sort of deep inner turmoil. I wish her the best; I just don't know how to become emotionally involved any further. Hell, I don't think I could be emotionally involved with ANY woman for a while.

BigBadWolf - What a heartfelt and awesome comment. Thanks so much for your input! I get what you're saying. I almost feel like it's my fault for letting things get to this stage. I can't control her behavior, but I stuck around for it. There are a lot of things I love dearly about her. Not trying to use kids as a scapegoat, I just have found it very difficult to ponder the idea of continuing a "friendship" or some type of working relationship with her, without the marriage part. She's gonna be around no matter what. I don't think forcing kids to not be able to see their mother at all is the right thing to do. She's great with them. She's just doesn't seem able to be in a mature relationship. There's no way I'm going to get into a sitcom-esque bickering match. Whatever we do moving forward, it has to be civil.


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## howmuchcanamantake (Jul 19, 2011)

This is a neverending story with this woman. She isn't cut out to be a wife. Get rid of her, unless you enjoy pain and misery.


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## searcher (Jul 22, 2011)

howmuchcanamantake said:


> This is a neverending story with this woman. She isn't cut out to be a wife. Get rid of her, unless you enjoy pain and misery.


I would love to see her "figure things out", so she can be happy. It's pretty clear that moving back in together, again, is not going to be what makes that happen.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

searcher said:


> BigBadWolf - What a heartfelt and awesome comment. Thanks so much for your input! I get what you're saying. I almost feel like it's my fault for letting things get to this stage. I can't control her behavior, but I stuck around for it.


Do not beat yourself up for it.

Yourself, that is the only person you can control.

But when you do put yourself first, and truly seek your own desires and happiness paramount, then it is with eyes wide open you see the way to get to where you want to be going all along.



> There are a lot of things I love dearly about her. Not trying to use kids as a scapegoat, I just have found it very difficult to ponder the idea of continuing a "friendship" or some type of working relationship with her, without the marriage part.


Work on pondering this idea, really work on this and spend energy on this.

Be creative, and imaginative, and yes, I am asking you to be shrewd and even so much an arsehole to a point, but it is for a reason.

The "marriage part" you have up to now, what you have been doing in the past, is clearly not working.



> She's gonna be around no matter what.


[email protected] right.

So why not make the situation as healthy, secure, emotionally stable and able to be addressed with the most integrity as you possibly can?

You do this, by putting the ball in your court.

Giving her the ball, well, you see where that has gotten.

And yes, you will need to fight for the ball. We all do at one point or another, all our lives.



> I don't think forcing kids to not be able to see their mother at all is the right thing to do. She's great with them.


NOthing in the world about forcing kids away from her. 

If you have custody, she can be as much in their lives as is appropriate.

But her bouncing around from strange man to strange man, seeking whatever it is that she is seeking, and keeping you emotionally strung along and perpetually disrespected, and using you for merely a financial and emotoinal tool to prop up her shenanigans, she is not putting the children first or being the mother at all to her potential, and this will be the case as long as you tolerate it.



> She's just doesn't seem able to be in a mature relationship.


And you and the children suffer.

Nature abhors a vacuum. Step up to the difficult task of making hard decisions. If not you, then who will be deciding?

Play hardball, be the arsehole, get custody and throw the long overdue emotional bucket of cold water over this woman's head.

Overcoming adversity, and reaping the consequences of what we ourselves sow, it is what brings us maturity as human beings. 

Your woman's harvest, long overdue. 



> There's no way I'm going to get into a sitcom-esque bickering match. Whatever we do moving forward, it has to be civil.


Nothing need be uncivil.

If the ball in your court, you can be as civil as civil can be!

But if someone else has the ball, someone else decides level of civil.

Frame the situation for what it is.

Put the ball in your court, whatever it takes!


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

You've gotten some great advice. The reality,as I see it, is that she has some damage that you can't control or fix. Searching out other relationships is just a way to self-medicate - she gets the rush of being with a new person and creates some drama that somehow feeds something sick inside her. 

You can't really know what goes on in her head and unfortunately, she doesn't seem willing or able to address it on her own. The answer isn't couples counselling, the answer for her is intense individual counselling to get to the root of why she behaves so badly.

But that is her problem, not yours. I'm with BBW on this one: be civil, try to work things to be effective co-parents, be the best dad you can be, and seek out a great life for yourself. You can argue that once is a blip, two is trend, three is a pattern. Assume everything that comes out of her mouth is designed to make her feel better in the moment and means nothing long term.


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## searcher (Jul 22, 2011)

Thanks for the great input, everyone. Really...I truly appreciate it. I'm coming to realize I just need to set the example. I can't control her, and waiting/hoping she'll turn around just doesn't work. 

I hung out with her today and expressed some of what I've been feeling, how hurt I am, etc. According to her, she doesn't need counseling. I do. She did all this because I'm a bad husband. It's my fault. I need to get over it. It just occurred to me today that she's never expressed any remorse or even said she's sorry for any of this. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone!


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

It's pretty common for wayward spouses to blameshift - ie. "You made me do this", "if you didn't x, then I wouldn't have y." Usually it's during the first part of discovery as a way to avoid processing the reality of the betrayal. Given that the cheating has been chronic, I'd hazard a guess that her blame shifting is either extreme pathological denial or a sign of a personal disorder. 

You can't take it personally. It's her, not you. It's totally abusive. You can't changer her. You will never have stability with this woman.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

seeking sanity said:


> It's pretty common for wayward spouses to blameshift - ie. "You made me do this", "if you didn't x, then I wouldn't have y." Usually it's during the first part of discovery as a way to avoid processing the reality of the betrayal. Given that the cheating has been chronic, I'd hazard a guess that her blame shifting is either extreme pathological denial or a sign of a personal disorder.
> 
> You can't take it personally. It's her, not you. It's totally abusive. You can't changer her. You will never have stability with this woman.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

She is a serial cheater and will never own up to her actions because something is broken within her. She will continue to blameshift. And yes, she is emotionally abusive.

You cannot change her or control her actions. You can only control your own actions and change yourself. And that means detaching from her and getting rid of any codependency issues you have with her. You need to detach, detach, detach. 

She may be right about one thing though, in that you may need counselling, individual counseling that is. Not for your marriage per se, but for yourself to help you cope with letting her go and moving on with your life without her. Years of her cheating and emotional abuse is really taking a toll on your self esteem and self worth. You need to learn to get stronger, do the 180, and detach. If you want, I can PM you the 180.


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## searcher (Jul 22, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> She is a serial cheater and will never own up to her actions because something is broken within her. She will continue to blameshift. And yes, she is emotionally abusive.
> 
> ...


Definitely feel free to PM the 180. I'm up for whatever help I can take. It's interesting, because I'm a business consultant and I always preach how essential it is to have a strong team, look to others for help, not try to do everything yourself, etc. I do that in business, but in my personal life I've always kind of been on my own. 

It's true I have some serious codependency issues floating around my brain. I feel it; I've never seen it before but I do now clear as day. I'm talking with a therapist later this week, and we'll see what issues I might be able to work out that way. I've never been to therapy before but it seems pretty helpful to me, at least in theory. 

Would you say that this separation, and me gaining strength on my own, could potentially even be good for HER? Setting an example and leading the way...that kind of thing?

I do see this kind of behavior as clear cut emotional abuse. And I know that she certainly does NOT see it that way. I know this girl, and she's not malicious. But I've definitely come to see that she's not cut out to be in an adult relationship, at least not at this point. 

It's obvious to me we can't be together at this point, but I still want what's best for her. Anything I can do to help in your opinion? I can't change her, but surely I can help her in a healthy way. I suppose calling her out on her bullsh*t is a good start


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## searcher (Jul 22, 2011)

I am compelled to reiterate what I said in my OM. You guys are awesome. Some stranger (me) dropped in with a question, and you've been so gracious and helpful. Most appreciated


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## BigBri (Jul 22, 2011)

> In the past, even after the cheating I've always looked at her and felt love.


This was your problem. You let her keep disrespecting you with her chaeting ways- she lost respect for you. Women don't love men they don't respect. After 6 guys, its no wonder you were thought of as a doormat. I really feel for you, but you did it to yourself.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

searcher said:


> Definitely feel free to PM the 180. I'm up for whatever help I can take. It's interesting, because I'm a business consultant and I always preach how essential it is to have a strong team, look to others for help, not try to do everything yourself, etc. I do that in business, but in my personal life I've always kind of been on my own.
> 
> It's true I have some serious codependency issues floating around my brain. I feel it; I've never seen it before but I do now clear as day. I'm talking with a therapist later this week, and we'll see what issues I might be able to work out that way. I've never been to therapy before but it seems pretty helpful to me, at least in theory.
> 
> ...



You are a good and compassionate man. Never be ashamed of that.

As far as your wife is concerned, your continuing participation in the separation cycles is actually harming the two of you. Stop the cycle - by divorcing her - and she just may hit rock bottom. If this happens, then she might able to finally acknowledge her issues and be more willing to seek out professional counseling - like you are going to - in order to resolve her issues.


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## searcher (Jul 22, 2011)

BigBri said:


> This was your problem. You let her keep disrespecting you with her chaeting ways- she lost respect for you. Women don't love men they don't respect. After 6 guys, its no wonder you were thought of as a doormat. I really feel for you, but you did it to yourself.


I hear ya. It's funny how hindsight is 20/20, no?


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## searcher (Jul 22, 2011)

morituri said:


> You are a good and compassionate man. Never be ashamed of that.
> 
> As far as your wife is concerned, your continuing participation in the separation cycles is actually harming the two of you. Stop the cycle - by divorcing her - and she just may hit rock bottom. If this happens, then she might able to finally acknowledge her issues and be more willing to seek out professional counseling - like you are going to - in order to resolve her issues.


Thanks. I don't feel ashamed or bad about any of this. Not anymore. I've already grieved fully. That's behind me. Mostly, I just feel compelled to take care of business and move forward. If she wants to interact with me, it's gonna be on my level. I don't know any other way to get on with things.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

searcher said:


> It's obvious to me we can't be together at this point, but I still want what's best for her. Anything I can do to help in your opinion? I can't change her, but surely I can help her in a healthy way. I suppose calling her out on her bullsh*t is a good start


A woman such as this, yes, she has lost respect for you.

To regain respect, as backwards as this may sound to you, you must become very much more self-centered, decisive, and a downright hard-arse concerning what YOU expect and what YOU will or will not tolerate.

This, to the kind of woman behaving as you are describing, is the wake up call she is needing.

Being nice, kind, forgiving, loving, etc, all this is much like sugar. Okay in small amounts, but too much out of balance is only leading to unhealthy decay.

Fight, and fight HARD, for what you want and what you expect.

This the best way to deal with this type of situation.


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