# Red flag from disloyal spouses of false reconciliation/recovery



## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Having gone through a six month false reconciliation in which my husband and I seem to be getting along great, only to be alerted by an outsider to another betrayal, has prompted me to share what I now realize is a huge red flag to a false reconciliation. 

During the six months reconciliation, my STBEH kept saying that he couldn't stand the hurt way I looked at him, or the fact that I no longer trusted him. 

He often said if this were to last forever he wondered if it would be better if we both moved on. 

This seems contrary to the successful reconciliations I read about, in which the cheating spouse says they will be there for the BS for how ever long it takes to gain back trust and to soften the hurt. 

In reality, however, IMO, the disloyal spouse needs to realize that the hurt and distrust are never going away completely. 

The distrust and hurt might lose it's sore rough edge over time, but the disloyal spouse must realize that they will never ever be trusted again by the betrayed spouse.

You know the saying, fool be once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. 

I think it is normal for the BS to be forever a tad distrustful. 

What do others think?


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> He often said if this were to last forever he wondered if it would be better if we both moved on.


Have seen that a lot. Those "get over it already" lines.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I can only speak for our reconciliation, but your observation holds true for us. At the very first, he kept telling me he wouldn't be able to stand it if I kept demanding my 'pound of flesh' (his words) but as things progressed and he realized I wasn't bringing up what he did to rub his face in it, but to deal with it, he learned how to help me with it. And he also realizes that it will be something that's with us forever - he cannot undo what he did, and that from time to time I will still feel pain from it. Just yesterday I woke up from a really bad dream of him cheating, and felt triggery all day. I told him as soon as I woke up and we talked and he expressed how sorry he is for the ten thousandth time and I felt better.


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## GotMeWonderingNow (May 31, 2012)

I'm not sure if I am qualified to comment on this yet, but in reference to my wife and my R for her on-line activities at least, she doesn't seem to get the fact that it may take me a long time to get over things. When she brought up the "D" word the other day it was regarding me and she wanted to know how many times would I bring up the same issue again. If it was going to be something that recurred over and over she more or less said she wanted out. I'm not sure how serious she was, but as each day passes recently I feel like I know her less and less.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Hope1964 said:


> I can only speak for our reconciliation, but your observation holds true for us. At the very first, he kept telling me he wouldn't be able to stand it if I kept demanding my 'pound of flesh' (his words) but as things progressed and he realized I wasn't bringing up what he did to rub his face in it, but to deal with it, he learned how to help me with it. And he also realizes that it will be something that's with us forever - he cannot undo what he did, and that from time to time I will still feel pain from it. Just yesterday I woke up from a really bad dream of him cheating, and felt triggery all day. I told him as soon as I woke up and we talked and he expressed how sorry he is for the ten thousandth time and I felt better.


 I think you pointed out something very important here. The WS has to know that bringing up things about their A's aren't just to rub their face in it. They need to be told that you have to talk about it to cope, etc, etc. It seems to us BS's that they should know that already, but honestly I think some of them can be just as confused as to what to do, and often make the statements about "getting over it" in frustration. Can't feel good to have someone reminding you daily that you did something horrible to your family. Once they understand its a process, they seem to understand more.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Sadly, Sara, I agree. A bit of distrust is always going to be in the background of my relationship, and, altho' I was betrayed more than once, my problems are/were nowhere near what some on this board have suffered thru. Even so, a tiny, tainted thread will always run thru our relationship.The way she hurt me, willfully or not, is always going to be in the back of my mind. It informs the decisions I make and the way I interact with her to this day. Any time we fight or she acts weird, I can't help but think of what has gone before. Fair? I dunno. But it's our reality.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

I will never fully trust again. If we did D and I moved on, I am sure I would never fall into the bliss of full trust again.

My wife I talked about this several times in R. The MC says that is normal and it would be that way with anyone I was with now or in the future


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## Simon Phoenix (Aug 9, 2010)

mahike said:


> I will never fully trust again. If we did D and I moved on, I am sure I would never fall into the bliss of full trust again.
> 
> My wife I talked about this several times in R. The MC says that is normal and it would be that way with anyone I was with now or in the future


Concur. Agree. Cosign. Ditto. Bullseye on the mark.

I will never, EVER fully trust someone enough to hurt me like that again. The defense shields and firewalls will always be up and running at full tilt, whether I'm with her or anyone else...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I actually think I trust my hubby more today than I ever did, and more than I could trust someone new too.

The reason I say this is that we now have complete transparency between us, and I have no qualms about asking him where he is/was, where he's going, what's in his email, what's on his computer, what that charge on the visa is for, etc etc etc. Questions that would seem intrusive to most, but that are taken for granted between us, as a result of what he did.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> *I actually think I trust my hubby more today than I ever did*, and more than I could trust someone new too.
> 
> The reason I say this is that we now have complete transparency between us, and* I have no qualms about asking him where he is/was, where he's going, what's in his email, what's on his computer, what that charge on the visa is for, etc etc etc. *Questions that would seem intrusive to most, but that are taken for granted between us, as a result of what he did.



It seems to me that if you have to ask more than you did before, the trust is not more but less.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I've always been like that but never had the freedom to actually ask, if that makes sense. I have jealousy issues.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I can only speak for our reconciliation, but your observation holds true for us. At the very first, he kept telling me he wouldn't be able to stand it if I kept demanding my 'pound of flesh' (his words) but as things progressed and he realized I wasn't bringing up what he did to rub his face in it, but to deal with it, he learned how to help me with it. And he also realizes that it will be something that's with us forever - he cannot undo what he did, and that from time to time I will still feel pain from it. Just yesterday I woke up from a really bad dream of him cheating, and felt triggery all day. I told him as soon as I woke up and we talked and he expressed how sorry he is for the ten thousandth time and I felt better.


I have followed your postings and to me, your reconciliation seems to be genuine, based on your spouses ongoing behavior. 

One isolated incident is not as important as continuing incidents. 

Your husband obviously woke up.

I am sorry to hear that you triggered. It stinks.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

GotMeWonderingNow said:


> I'm not sure if I am qualified to comment on this yet, but in reference to my wife and my R for her on-line activities at least, she doesn't seem to get the fact that it may take me a long time to get over things. When she brought up the "D" word the other day it was regarding me and she wanted to know how many times would I bring up the same issue again. If it was going to be something that recurred over and over she more or less said she wanted out. I'm not sure how serious she was, but as each day passes recently I feel like I know her less and less.


Yes, exactly. 

I think if she says this once or twice it might be forgivable and even understandable. 

However, after reading a few books that discuss post infidelity PTSD and talking to a good MC, IMO, the disloyal spouse needs to realize they destroyed trust forever and that the BS may forgive, but would be foolish to forget.

In the books I read and all the MCs we saw, advised him that i would never forget this. So he knew that. The books also talked about NOT putting a time limit on the BS's healing and level of trust.

Therefore, IMO, continuing to complain about distrust and questioning whereabouts is a sign of a false R.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

DawnD said:


> I think you pointed out something very important here. The WS has to know that bringing up things about their A's aren't just to rub their face in it. They need to be told that you have to talk about it to cope, etc, etc. It seems to us BS's that they should know that already, but honestly I think some of them can be just as confused as to what to do, and often make the statements about "getting over it" in frustration. Can't feel good to have someone reminding you daily that you did something horrible to your family. Once they understand its a process, they seem to understand more.


I agree with the cheating spouse being confused about what to do. 

I am talking about cases where the Cheating spouse has already been advised of how to handle the triggers and questions and distrust by several MCs.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

If you look at Allybabe_18 and Dingerdad's story, the red flag there was she was concerned about OM's feelings, that he would be hurt because she and Dingerdad were in R. :scratchhead:


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Unsure in Seattle said:


> Sadly, Sara, I agree. A bit of distrust is always going to be in the background of my relationship, and, altho' I was betrayed more than once, my problems are/were nowhere near what some on this board have suffered thru. Even so, a tiny, tainted thread will always run thru our relationship.The way she hurt me, willfully or not, is always going to be in the back of my mind. It informs the decisions I make and the way I interact with her to this day. Any time we fight or she acts weird, I can't help but think of what has gone before. Fair? I dunno. But it's our reality.


I agree. When we fought I always wondered if he would cheat again. 

I read that cheating is a passive aggressive way to get even with a spouse when angry about an issue in the marriage. 

My own STBEH, when I kept asking why, admitted that he was angry at me for many silly things. One reason he gave was that I argued with him about buying a rare, exotic, overpriced foreign car that we did not need and really could not afford without stretching. 

He said, I was not his mother to tell him what he could and could not buy. 

So he cheated. Seriously that scared me. He later tried to retract that reason, but he had tried to retract all the hurtful things he said to me after Dday. 

It's like being in court though. Once something is said, in a serious situation, it is said and difficult to take back. 

The judge may tell the jury to disregard that comment after a lawyer objects, but the words have been heard by the jury and the damage is done. 

That is why a good opposing attorney will ask the question anyway knowing the defendants attorney will jump up and yell, I OBJECT.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

mahike said:


> I will never fully trust again. If we did D and I moved on, I am sure I would never fall into the bliss of full trust again.
> 
> My wife I talked about this several times in R. The MC says that is normal and it would be that way with anyone I was with now or in the future


Yes, my MCs also said that. 

One also added that were any future wives of my spouse to learn that his first wife divorced him for cheating, that they, too, would have difficulty trusting him, due to that knowledge.

Basically, he put the label on himself, because now that I filed, it will be in the court records and court records are public documents.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> If you look at Allybabe_18 and Dingerdad's story, the red flag there was she was concerned about OM's feelings, that he would be hurt because she and Dingerdad were in R. :scratchhead:


Whoa. That is a red flag. 

IMO, people that get involved in affairs need to realize that the ending might be abrupt and very negative. 

IMO, they need to man up/woman up and accept that as soon as it ends.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Unsure in Seattle said:


> Sadly, Sara, I agree. A bit of distrust is always going to be in the background of my relationship, and, altho' I was betrayed more than once, my problems are/were nowhere near what some on this board have suffered thru. Even so, a tiny, tainted thread will always run thru our relationship.The way she hurt me, willfully or not, is always going to be in the back of my mind. It informs the decisions I make and the way I interact with her to this day. Any time we fight or she acts weird, I can't help but think of what has gone before. Fair? I dunno. But it's our reality.


this is the way I feel. I also think in both my failed marriage and my current relationship, that both of my partners would like to know that I do make effort to know and keep tabs.

My new piece of wisdom about infidelity comes from "Not Just Friends" in which the author said that one of the many reasons why people stray is because they are only asked to give TOO little to the relationship.

and maybe this is more of man thing than a woman thing. My fiancé maintains that his EA was always just a friend. But evidence turned up then that he was capable of treating his "just a friend" better than he can treat his gf (me). One example, is that he offered to pay taxi fare for her at a time when he couldn't even be bothered to wait for the bus with me (when I'm paying my own bus fare.)

So yesterday, after spending 6 days in the hospital, I came over to his place to play for the afternoon. I was going back to the hospital around 8pm when it's still light outside. and to boot, he lives only 5 stops away on the same subway line as the hospital. 

He gave me GBP20 to pay for a taxi. But I don't see the point in being in a spendthrift. But then I thought if I don't spend this, could we be going back to the days when he feels he doesn't have to make an effort. So I said, "well, I better take this or else you'll think I'm way too independent" (his enduring excuse for the wide variance in how he treated me and his EA)

He really took that as a remark below the belt. But what else can you do?


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## forlorn99 (May 20, 2012)

My wife doesnt ask me to not talk about her affair, she does say that I am really mean and say nasty things and the look on my face is scary. She has mentioned a couple of times that if I really can not get past this that we are going to have to get a divorce because she can't deal with me being so nasty for the rest of her life.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Rubbish.

It's not your fault that she had an affair.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> this is the way I feel. I also think in both my failed marriage and my current relationship, that both of my partners would like to know that I do make effort to know and keep tabs.
> 
> My new piece of wisdom about infidelity comes from "Not Just Friends" in which the author said that one of the many reasons why people stray is because they are only asked to give TOO little to the relationship.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that. 

It seems to be a common thread that the cheating spouses, both male and female give more to the AP than to the spouse. 

With disloyal women they tend to be more sexually expressive and free with the AP and communicate more by text and phone and email. 

With disloyal men, they tend to spend more frivolously on the AP and talk to them more by email, text and phone.

My STBEH was spending a lot of money on pricey restaurants and weekend jaunts, gifts and flowers, than he ever spent on me while dating or married. 

In fairness, though, I am easily pleased and when we first married we were poor so I always told him to not waste money on gifts and when our businesses took off, I really didn't push for gifts. 

The OW loves to be pampered, but my STBEH always claimed to hate that type of women. Sigh,

He also spent more time talking to her while he was at work. 

Meanwhile, when I called him at work, which was rare, he would complain that he was too busy to talk, whereupon I immediately and somewhat meekly got off the phone. 

Interestingly, during his affair, he suddenly started calling me and baiting me by asking me if I was too busy to talk, when I would say yes, I am paying bills or cleaning the house, I will talk when you get home, He would say coyly, you don't really want to talk to me do you or something along those lines. 

I thought it was odd, and puzzling behavior, but I let it go rather than start an argument by phone while he was at work. 

I now realize he likely felt guilty for prior never calling me and now he needed to do something that would put the blame on me for not talking to him all day at work or texting or emailing him constantly. 

Seriously, the sheer volume of emails texts phone calls between he and the OW was amazing. I don't know how he got any work done, or maybe he didn't.

I can't imagine what they could talk about so much by text, email and phone all day and half the night, too . 

Talk about and affair high.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

forlorn99 said:


> My wife doesnt ask me to not talk about her affair, she does say that I am really mean and say nasty things and the look on my face is scary. She has mentioned a couple of times that if I really can not get past this that we are going to have to get a divorce because she can't deal with me being so nasty for the rest of her life.


IMO, see an attorney pronto. Ask her to move out then file.

She's the mean one.


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

forlorn99 said:


> My wife doesnt ask me to not talk about her affair, she does say that I am really mean and say nasty things and the look on my face is scary. She has mentioned a couple of times that if I really can not get past this that we are going to have to get a divorce because she can't deal with me being so nasty for the rest of her life.


Remorseful waywards don't set terms and conditions, my fWW went through literal hell, including bouts of physical abuse (including spitting on her face) from my side, and she didn't give me a time frame to get past her affair.


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## forlorn99 (May 20, 2012)

anonymouskitty said:


> Remorseful waywards don't set terms and conditions, my fWW went through literal hell, including bouts of physical abuse (including spitting on her face) from my side, and she didn't give me a time frame to get past her affair.


I would never physically abuse her in any way, that is not acceptable behavior under any circumstances. We talk about what she has done and after a few minutes of it I start to get angry and say things that are not productive to our R (according to the MC) I call her a s!ut ask her if she had a good time blowing strangers etc etc.. I am sure I am not the only spouse that has done this. She says that I know what she did and I know that she feels bad about it and wishes she could go back and not do it, do I have to keep intentionally saying the most hurtful things that I can whenever we talk about it. I am not sure why I do it, I know it doesnt accomplish anything other than make her feel bad. I guess sometimes knowing that she is getting some negative for what she has done makes me feel better?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

My husband says he was feeling isolated from me and lonely when he sought out intimacy on the internet. He also was harboring resentment for years due to some things he had 'given in' to me, like buying a house with a big yard and garden, when that wasn't what he wanted, but he did it because he knew I wanted it so he pretended. The resentment had resulted in him distancing himself from me, which led to him feeling isolated. Now that he can see these things he can't believe he was so stupid.

forlorn, ARE you being nasty to your wife?


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm just telling you what I did and the response I got, you don't think I've called her a ****/*****/skank a couple hundred times at least?
It wasn't until a few months after every thing blew up in her face that I realized she was withering away and I was becoming bitter drowning in my own resentment and anger.

I'm just reiterating the fact that your wife, though she may feel extremely guilty about her affair, which is why she doesn't want you throwing it in her face every time, doesn't feel a shred of remorse.

I'm remorseful for treating my wife the way I did following her affair and she is remorseful for having the affair.

Remorse brings about change, guilt fades overtime and old habits comeback to take a hold on you once again.

With remorse, you can empathize with the pain you've caused a loved one.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

forlorn99 said:


> I call her a s!ut ask her if she had a good time blowing strangers etc etc....... I am not sure why I do it, I know it doesnt accomplish anything other than make her feel bad. I guess sometimes knowing that she is getting some negative for what she has done makes me feel better?


You can't keep doing this. If she's truly remorseful, you are doing far more damage here. You've got to approach the talks in a loving way.

Gottman's Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work has some great exercises in it that might really help you.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

forlorn99 said:


> I would never physically abuse her in any way, that is not acceptable behavior under any circumstances. We talk about what she has done and after a few minutes of it I start to get angry and say things that are not productive to our R (according to the MC) I call her a s!ut ask her if she had a good time blowing strangers etc etc.. I am sure I am not the only spouse that has done this. She says that I know what she did and I know that she feels bad about it and wishes she could go back and not do it, do I have to keep intentionally saying the most hurtful things that I can whenever we talk about it. I am not sure why I do it, I know it doesnt accomplish anything other than make her feel bad. I guess sometimes knowing that she is getting some negative for what she has done makes me feel better?


Well, it depends on why you get angry at her and start calling her a ****? Perhaps she is triggering you. 

MY STBEH admitted he would say things that he knew would (press my buttons) trigger me. 

Once I mentioned a song about a long term marriage splitting up that I said reminded me of he and I. 

A few weeks later he told me the song reminded him of her and him and their relationship. 

I was like whaaaaaat! ( a very loud high pitched whaaaat!)The song is about a long term marriage and you say it makes you think of you and her.

And, yes, I know it wasn't productive but at that point I went off and called him a Sl$%ut and a "ho" and a lousy cheating, two timing slime bag, liar. 

And, yes the counselor said it wasn't productive, but it sure as heck felt good to say it.

I didn't say stuff like that though unless he first said something really stupid or offensive or insensitive given the situation.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> My husband says he was feeling isolated from me and lonely when he sought out intimacy on the internet. He also was harboring resentment for years due to some things he had 'given in' to me, like buying a house with a big yard and garden, when that wasn't what he wanted, but he did it because he knew I wanted it so he pretended. The resentment had resulted in him distancing himself from me, which led to him feeling isolated. Now that he can see these things he can't believe he was so stupid.


My situation was the opposite. I was the one who gave up a lot to live the life he wanted, in the part of the country he wanted, etc. 

One counselor noted that I had more reason to feel resentful and to be prone to an affair than he did. 

Forlorn may not have forced his wife into doing anything that she could be resentful about. Maybe she just couldn't resist an attraction and the enticement of a new relationship.

BTW: My STBEH is the one who wanted the big house. He likes to be showy. I don't. I follow a buddhist philosophy. I was basically happy even when we lived in a small house.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think thats another consequence the wayward faces, In my case my fWW wanted to stay so after letting her go it was her choice to put up with the mistrust, discussions and the looks.
Hell she had her chance to pack and leave but didn't so now she can take what I give....her choice....always while be.

Make no mistake here, I too have become a better human being and I think that has alot to do with dealling with me not trusting fWW with regards to putting up with it all. As time moves on (2-1/2yrs) trust is coming back with regards to here going to work, texting, or the grocery store...but forget about the GNO's and those toxic friends...never again that is one thing that will never come back. If they do then she is welcome to leave.

I think they call this a boundry


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

anonymouskitty said:


> Remorseful waywards don't set terms and conditions, my fWW went through literal hell, including bouts of physical abuse (including spitting on her face) from my side, and she didn't give me a time frame to get past her affair.


 I don't agree with WS's trying to give a time table, but I also don't believe in BS's throwing it in their face for the rest of their life. At some point you truly do have to either accept that they made a horrible choice/series of choices and focus on fixing the marriage or divorce.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I think there is a fulcrum that sits between being able to bring up the affair at will, and relentlessly punishing the disloyal spouse.

Even as a BS, I think there is a point where yelling, cutting down your WS becomes abusive and wrong, and there is only so much they can take. And for a WS to express that to the BS I think is fair. 

WS should be prepared for backlash, discussion, etc, but if they have reached their limit on time and/or severity, they have every right to tell their BS as such, or just end the relationship, citing too much damage has been done.

That said, the WS doesn't have the right to threaten the BS, or make demands. They have no say in that. But they can say enough is enough if they feel they've been spanked way too many times. Then it is up to the BS from there, to either back down a bit, or just go for D. 

My WW has been very careful to tiptoe around things that would trigger me or cause me grief about the A. I've asked her to not say certain things, etc, and she has obliged. If they do what we ask, and we continue to insult them or scream, etc, like a many months later, we might as well stop and just D.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I’ve gone through the false R and a real R..
With the false R, it should have been obvious. What my WW wanted was for us to work on marriage problems. Everytime I turned the subject toward her affairs (EA’s at the time), she would get massively defensive and restate how her ‘why’ had to do with this ‘void’ I had created for her in the marriage and not meeting her needs. That boat sank when I discovered underground continuation of those affairs. The next round is different. Noticeable changes in approach and attitude. After the six month bumps and rocky road, it looked like a real R. 

My wife does say things similar to yours Sara8; Its sort of a defeatist attitude of “You won’t ever forgive me will you.” and “You do understand you’ve told me you don’t love me or care.” I’m just brutally honest about it: “No. Not for a long time.” Then I go onto explain what forgiveness really means to me. It is the highest level of acceptance where this past no longer influences my choices, thoughts, or decisions. Sort of a ‘that’s the past’ flair. It goes hand in hand with trust. Trust is nothing more than your ability to predict future behavior based on your past experiences. Affairs, lying, etc., severely harm that past experience.

So, where I am is a level of acceptance. I have accepted this happened in our marriage. I have a reasonable understanding of why. I have some experience and history now of changes that correct the thought process that went into the ‘why’. Yet, it does affect my thoughts, my actions, and my perceptions still. I’ve told her as long as I see progress, and feel the R is working, I will not leave. 

My heart and emotional tie is still distant. I have explained my ‘why’. She’s not done working on herself, nor me either. I stay distant because those little things she says, little complaints, etc. would hurt and trigger. If I don’t care all that deeply, it doesn’t bother me. The more work she does, and myself, the more I allow myself to rebond and open myself up for pain... It takes a lot of trust for me to do this with someone who used this in the past to harm me. So she’ll just have to excuse me that I’m not eager to jump right back into the cage with her. She does get this; Yet I do empathize that she doesn’t like that answer and just wants the full forgiveness and love now... This is why we are in R, and not fully reconciled yet.

So it really comes down to expressing yourself correctly and giving them enough hope that reconciliation is possible, even with someone who thinks very little of them at the moment. It is a long, slow process of building a new history.


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

DawnD said:


> I don't agree with WS's trying to give a time table, but I also don't believe in BS's throwing it in their face for the rest of their life. At some point you truly do have to either accept that they made a horrible choice/series of choices and focus on fixing the marriage or divorce.


I completely agree with you, bringing it up for the purpose of shaming the WS for years after the storm has passed is wrong, I'm just saying that a few months or even a year is a very short period of time to completely get past the affair and the WS must be prepared for waves of intense anger from the BS.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

anonymouskitty said:


> I completely agree with you, bringing it up for the purpose of shaming the WS for years after the storm has passed is wrong, I'm just saying that a few months or even a year is a very short period of time to completely get past the affair and the WS must be prepared for waves of intense anger from the BS.


Agree completely. I do think that some BS's tend to think that they should have the freedom to shame for years to come ( and I am sure some have, not necessarily the ones on this sight) so its best to restate that general thesis for the new BS's. Waves of anger will come ( went through that too) but I think a frank discussion between the BS and the WS about WHY there is the need to talk about the affair/s is a must. When you inform a WS that you need to talk about these things to help you cope, they tend to be more invested instead of defensive. Some of them at least


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

anonymouskitty said:


> I completely agree with you, bringing it up for the purpose of shaming the WS for years after the storm has passed is wrong, I'm just saying that a few months or even a year is a very short period of time to completely get past the affair and the WS must be prepared for waves of intense anger from the BS.


Exactly. The MC already told my spouse and likely tells all of them that an affair takes two to five years to recover from. 

Also, every time the disloyal spouse does something wrong, like gets discovered still texting or talking to OP in the affair, or continuing the affair with op or someone new, then that sets the date of recovery to day one and it will take two to five years from second Dday to recover.

I think that is reasonable.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think there is a degree to second chance.
I think that if WS started a new affair thats a double play and its 2 *more* stricks and there out. So the R is false even with the new A

But when it comes to....say a drunken mistake to text and NC has been validated for a week or more then the R may be fragile but still true and consequences should be faced but this would be strick 2 with one more strick before they are out.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Sara8 said:


> Exactly. The MC already told my spouse and likely tells all of them that an affair takes two to five years to recover from.
> 
> Also, every time the disloyal spouse does something wrong, like gets discovered still texting or talking to OP in the affair, or continuing the affair with op or someone new, then that sets the date of recovery to day one and it will take two to five years from second Dday to recover.
> 
> I think that is reasonable.


 I think that is a very true statement, that the dday pain starts over again if the DS is caught still in an affair. 

We are about 3 years out from our dday and still progressing, so I think the 2-5 year window is pretty eerily accurate.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Sara8 said:


> Also, every time the disloyal spouse does something wrong, like gets discovered still texting or talking to OP in the affair, or continuing the affair with op or someone new, then that sets the date of recovery to day one and it will take two to five years from second Dday to recover..


I should also mention that I do not believe there can ever be a full forgiveness when it comes to triggers. Sorry to the WS spouses out there, but a part of BS brain is now ‘wired’ for alerts and monitors actively. If 8 years from now I see a behavior or attitude that triggers memories of the affairs, they won’t be easily overlooked or dismissed. There will be confrontation and ramifications for no other reason than I know what happened last time. That’s just part of the experiences you introduced us to as it relates to who you are..... And yes, we might even go overboard; Excuse my paranoia and insanity. This is a traumatic life altering experience, there isn’t a ‘undo button’.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I think the restart can happen with each revelation, even if the revelation comes months or years later. If I found out tomorrow that my husband was actually intimate with someone other than the prostitute, it would reset things back pretty far.

I also agree with the 2-5 year timeline.

But I don't agree that the BS should take a year to spend venting to their WS, spewing venom whenever they feel like it. I'm not going to put a time limit on it, but if you're still feeling that much anger after a year then maybe you should take an honest look at whether you really want to R.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> But I don't agree that the BS should take a year to spend venting to their WS, spewing venom whenever they feel like it. I'm not going to put a time limit on it, but if you're still feeling that much anger after a year then maybe you should take an honest look at whether you really want to R.


I agree. The BS should not spew venom for no reason, ever. 

But if the BS is spewing venom because the Cheating spouse is still refusing transparency, or texting or cheating or excessively viewing porn or getting lap dances, than those are legitimate reasons to get upset and/or triggered, and a sign of a false R on the cheating spouse's part, IMO.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Racer said:


> I should also mention that I do not believe there can ever be a full forgiveness when it comes to triggers. Sorry to the WS spouses out there, but a part of BS brain is now ‘wired’ for alerts and monitors actively. If 8 years from now I see a behavior or attitude that triggers memories of the affairs, they won’t be easily overlooked or dismissed. There will be confrontation and ramifications for no other reason than I know what happened last time. That’s just part of the experiences you introduced us to as it relates to who you are..... And yes, we might even go overboard; Excuse my paranoia and insanity. This is a traumatic life altering experience, there isn’t a ‘undo button’.


 I don't really agree with this, only because of my situation. Have all the triggers disappeared? No, but they are so few and far between and the building we have done has paid off, so we both act and react to one another so much better. I noticed the H took some cash out and still used the debit card to buy his vitamins and protein. Two and a half years ago there would have been tears, questions, talking about the A, etc,etc. Now? Well he just did that today and all I asked was how much cash he still had on him? Does he need that much for lunches for the next couple weeks? He calmly explained how much he needed, and offered to put some in my wallet for the kids movie tomorrow. Much less of an ordeal now than it was. Ten minutes later we are flirting and laughing together.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> I agree. The BS should not spew venom for no reason, ever.
> 
> But if the BS is spewing venom because the Cheating spouse is still refusing transparency, or texting or cheating or excessively viewing porn or getting lap dances, than those are legitimate reasons to get upset and/or triggered, and a sign of a false R on the cheating spouse's part, IMO.


Those are legitimate reasons to kick their sorry a$$ to the curb. If the WS is acting like that, why the heck would you want to be with them?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Racer said:


> I should also mention that I do not believe there can ever be a full forgiveness when it comes to triggers. Sorry to the WS spouses out there, but a part of BS brain is now ‘wired’ for alerts and monitors actively. If 8 years from now I see a behavior or attitude that triggers memories of the affairs, they won’t be easily overlooked or dismissed. There will be confrontation and ramifications for no other reason than I know what happened last time. That’s just part of the experiences you introduced us to as it relates to who you are..... And yes, we might even go overboard; Excuse my paranoia and insanity. This is a traumatic life altering
> experience, there isn’t a ‘undo button’.


Exactly, the cheating spouse needs to research PTSD, any severe trauma can cause it and the more a spouse trusted the disloyal spouse the more likely PTSD is to occur. 

PTSD actually can change the size of the hippocampus in the brain. 

Also, the triggers may lessen be farther and fewer between, but the intensity of the anger will remain. 

IMO, both spouses the wayward and the betrayed good psychiatrist needs to be seen together, along with a marriage counselor because too many marriage counselors are not properly trained to understand PTSD or its treatment. 

Just get over it is not that easy, when your brain structure and chemistry has been physically altered by the cheating spouses behavior. 

Also people who have had past traumas, may be more likely to become entrenched in PTSD. 

For example if they have been cheated on in another relationship or their was a serious life trauma prior.

Not everyone is susceptible to long term PTSD. For some situational PTSD is temporary. 

For example PTSD from a car accident is easier to get over than seeing friend blown to bits, or learning that a long time loved and totally trusted spouse was willing to so easily stab you in the back with a long term affair.

One counselor here who works with war veterans said that his wife's affair was much harder to get over than seeing people blown away. 

Long term PA/EAs are the most difficult to overcome and I think when interacting with people and suggesting R, those factors need to be taken into consideration.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Those are legitimate reasons to kick their sorry a$$ to the curb. If the WS is acting like that, why the heck would you want to be with them?


Exactly. That is why it's important to point out that those all are factors in a false R. 

Many spouses are encouraged to reconcile, but it is not always a good recommendation. It depends on the spouses remorse and behavior over time.

In those cases filing for Divorce is the best advice, IMO, rather than offering false hope.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Sara8 said:


> Also, the triggers may lessen be farther and fewer between, but the intensity of the anger will remain.
> 
> .


This is nowhere near accurate for me. I must be super special


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> But I don't agree that the BS should take a year to spend venting to their WS, spewing venom whenever they feel like it. I'm not going to put a time limit on it, but if you're still feeling that much anger after a year then maybe you should take an honest look at whether you really want to R.


As sexist as this comment may appear, there is a lot of difference between the kind of anger a man experiences upon discovery of sexual betrayal and the anger experienced by women.

The anger eventually starts growing less intense provided the necessary follow up work is done.

The hardest thing to get past is the shattered image of the person who you thought you knew and for a man sexual betrayal compounds this.

And a wayward wife saying "get over it already" is as close to not acknowledging the pain of the husband as one can get and combine that with generous amounts of trickle truth and no remorse, the anger in the man will stay for a long long time.

Please read this

Why men can never forgive a wife's affair... even though they'd expect YOU to forgive them | Mail Online


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

anonymouskitty said:


> As sexist as this comment may appear, there is a lot of difference between the kind of anger a man experiences upon discovery of sexual betrayal and the anger experienced by women.
> 
> The anger eventually starts growing less intense provided the necessary follow up work is done.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, but the fact men may feel more betrayed doesn't give them permission to verbally abuse their WW.

Whether the wayward is WW or WH doesn't matter - they shouldn't allow themselves to keep harping indefinitely. If their WW is still saying 'get over it' after a few months then again, I would be questioning whether R should be happening at all.


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Whether the wayward is WW or WH doesn't matter - they shouldn't allow themselves to keep harping indefinitely. *If their WW is still saying 'get over it' after a few months then again*, I would be questioning whether R should be happening at all.


:iagree:

indicates only one thing, no remorse, no true R, no anger fading anytime soon.Best option D


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

anonymouskitty said:


> The anger eventually starts growing less intense provided the necessary follow up work is done.


:iagree:

The anger DOES fade when the WS is doing the heavy lifting. Heck, I actually tried to stay angry, but just couldn't do it. It was then that I decided to R.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

DawnD said:


> This is nowhere near accurate for me. I must be super special


I am glad to hear that. 

But some people are more susceptible to PTSD. As mentioned it depends on how trusting the spouse was. I was very trusting, too trusting, blindly, stupidly trusting. 

Also, it depends on temperament and as mentioned past serious traumas. 

Also timing is important. 

At the time of learning of my STBEH's affair, I was coping with my father's recent death.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The anger DOES fade when the WS is doing the heavy lifting. Heck, I actually tried to stay angry, but just couldn't do it. It was then that I decided to R.


I hope so but my fiancé has not threatened to leave me when I have had meltdowns. But I am trying to control them.

the last time, a couple of weeks ago, he finally admitted that he was so committed to the idea that they were just friends that he didn't notice how he was unable to come clean with his plans and he realises that that was a mistake. Whew....finally.

I was pleased with myself as I made no mention of her physical appearance but concentrated on her personality and behaviour. How could he even want to spend time around someone so rude to him.

He did try that old nugget "Look at how much power you are giving her." I should have told him "how can she get any power out of these discussions between the two of us if she's not even aware of them." At least, I know what to say should that ridiculous platitude come up again.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Sara8 said:


> I am glad to hear that.
> 
> But some people are more susceptible to PTSD. As mentioned it depends on how trusting the spouse was. I was very trusting, too trusting, blindly, stupidly trusting.
> 
> ...


 At the time, my H was actually suffering from PTSD from his deployment. It was a horrid, horrid thing, and once Dday came, he finally decided he was going to get some help. At this point, I have only been on the other side of the fence with it.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

DawnD said:


> At the time, my H was actually suffering from PTSD from his deployment. It was a horrid, horrid thing, and once Dday came, he finally decided he was going to get some help. At this point, I have only been on the other side of the fence with it.


Sorry to hear that.

PTSD increases impulsivity because it physically and chemically effects the emotional centers of the brain. 

Also, if a person is prone to impulsivity to begin with it will likely exaggerate that trait. 

PTSD and Impulsive Behaviors - Impulsive Behaviors


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Sara8 said:


> Sorry to hear that.
> 
> PTSD increases impulsivity because it physically and chemically effects the emotional centers of the brain.
> 
> ...


 As with anything else, if can effect people in so many different ways. we got lucky that he had a really experienced counselor to help him out, who also had me come to some appointments as well. But I do think one of the worst things that can happen, is not having the money to get that counseling. we are lucky he has his military insurance and all that jazz, but I see many who have no such coverage. That breaks my heart.


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