# willing but not wanting



## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

I think there is a group of HD spouses (mostly men I think) that have the same situation that I’m in. Let’s call it the Loving, willing, but not wanting spouse. Let me try to define the situation and see if I’m right about my guess that there are a lot of people in the same situation as me.

-Loving relationship, my relationship is loving where we both respect each other and in my case my Wife truly is my best friend. I don’t know how some of you put up with the sexual problems combined with the mental or physical abuse. I do look forward to being with my wife, and want better sex WITH her, not just better sex.

-Sexual Relationship, in our marriage I am defiantly the HD spouse where the D is desire. Our frequency is much lower than I want 2 times a month or so, that could be better but the major problem is the quality and passion in our sexual relationship not just frequency. She would be willing to have it more often but low desire, 'just do me' sex isn't fulfilling for me. 

Desire – Arousal – Sex, My W seldom is never aroused until we begin physical stimulation Once she gets aroused her level of desire does go up but at that point the goal is more bringing her to an O (which she usually does). I have told her that anticipation, teasing, foreplay etc. would help me with having more fulfilling sex. I still wonder if she realizes that there are different levels of pleasure for a guy, just because he ejaculates doesn’t equate to great sex, even on that I find myself just ending before i ejaculate since the sex isn't fulfilling for me.

-Disproportional Effort, in our relationship most of the effort in continuing the romance and trying to spice things up comes primarily from me. Things like fun weekends, special day events (B-days, anniversary etc.) come almost exclusively from me. Usually they have a big build up (unrealistic hopes?) that results in a let down. As I have said we kid that I have become the chick in the relationship.

-Willing spouse, My W is willing to have sex but seldom initiates. If she does it is usually more of an invitation than an action. She has read SSM, this led to some very good discussions, but little follow up. Other books, fun gifts, sexy clothes, go unused or forgotten quickly. I have made suggestions and tried to help her with ideas that would make sex for me much more fulfilling, seldom (never for long) get follow up.

-Understands my frustration, I have told her how frustrated it is, how it makes me feel resentment, and how it physically affects me. I told her how simple things could make our sex life much more fulfilling to both of us, and how this could make a good emotional relationship even better. She understands in principal but doesn’t understand (or worse, does but doesn't care) how important this is to work on.

-Working on change, I have brought up the idea of working on the relationship, setting aside times or days to try new things, again willing to discuss it but little or no follow up continuing my frustration.

What would I want? To have a level of passion and desire as part of our sex life, to have this be part of our relationship, and to feel like we are both having fun while pleasuring each other. Simple eh

Can anyone else relate to this?


----------



## GIM003 (Feb 5, 2014)

I can relate to everything that you have written. Compared to many others on this site, I feel lucky in that my wife is completely willing and does respect that sex is an important part of a marriage and she enjoys what we do. But I do wish that sometimes she would actually pursue me or take the initiative in some way.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,
So - let's say we have enough overlap for me to fully understand what it is you describe. 

Flowers and chocolates and expensive hotels don't create desire. They create comfort and kindness. 

Strength, determination and edge - create desire. And that's what your wife wants. 

Bit she cannot command you to command her as that defeats the purpose. 

Talking is for resolving conflict. Taking is for creating desire. 

Take a nice long shower early tonight. Then walk into the bedroom after the kids are in bed and take over. Take control. This is not to be an interaction of equals. This is you taking your wife. 

When I look at M2 and use my special voice, flat, and a little sharp to tell her what to do: She complies. Or if she resists, then I overpower her physically. 

Start with one word commands: 

STRIP 
if she hesitates 

NOW
If still hesitating 

You will submit to me, do I need to punish you first? (Soft voice, don't smile) 
No she's openly resisting (you'll know if she really WANTS you to stop. You will. And of she does then stop - but it's very unlikely)

We will wrestle, each time I pin you, you can take off 2 pieces of clothes or get spanked. Your choice. And then start wrestling. 

Note: If you cannot pin your wife fairly quickly, you need to start hitting the weights. 



HDsocal said:


> I think there is a group of HD spouses (mostly men I think) that have the same situation that I’m in. Let’s call it the Loving, willing, but not wanting spouse. Let me try to define the situation and see if I’m right about my guess that there are a lot of people in the same situation as me.
> 
> -Loving relationship, my relationship is loving where we both respect each other and in my case my Wife truly is my best friend. I don’t know how some of you put up with the sexual problems combined with the mental or physical abuse. I do look forward to being with my wife, and want better sex WITH her, not just better sex.
> 
> ...


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> HD,
> So - let's say we have enough overlap for me to fully understand what it is you describe.
> 
> Flowers and chocolates and expensive hotels don't create desire. They create comfort and kindness.
> ...


Oh dear god MEM now I've got to rearrange my evening. Or take a cold shower.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Getting it,
Your H might want to watch: Vikings (that will get his blood up), and Justified - as the lead is quite the modern alpha.

Vikings a good thing to watch together. Turns out Viking women are portrayed - every bit as incredible as I had hoped. 

Back then the English practiced a very extreme form of Christianity. Legally, married women were literally the property of their men. Not good. 

For the Norseman, dominance achieved by ummm - being dominant. 

For the English, it was mainly conferred by the Church. 

No offense intended to any of my many Christian friends on this site. Some of you know that my wife is a practicing Catholic who seems to have accepted every bible/church teaching save the one on submissiveness. She claims that during one of the many biblical translations, some tired or mischievous scribe transposed the genders WRT the stuff on submission. 

But then that's kind of the whole point isn't it. There is neither sport nor thrill in dominating the meek. 




GettingIt said:


> Oh dear god MEM now I've got to rearrange my evening. Or take a cold shower.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Getting it,
> Your H might want to watch: Vikings (that will get his blood up), and Justified - as the lead is quite the modern alpha.


Oh yeah, that's right up our viewing alley . . .


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Damn MEM, you really need to post more often!


----------



## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

I'm also in this boat. A marriage to my best friend, but she doesn't seem to seek sex for pleasure. And she used to when we were dating! Our so I thought... [There are other 
(slowly aging and healing) issues in my marriage, but that's outside the scope here.] 

If I was to try what mem suggests, my wife would actively resist and be repulsed. Unless she was horny. On top of that she would probably not feel comfortable with me in the room for months. She does not appreciate predatory sexual behavior, and that's exactly how she would take it. Sex is so far from the front of her mind, she would see it as me "just wanting to have my way with her" 

I tried the alpha thing last year after reading mmsl. It's totally bogus. Confidence is what women find sexy. Some women (and men) confuse dominance for confidence.

I see people fake "dominance" all the time - I call it posturing. If I can spot it, a woman can spot it 10 times better.

Back on track, have you suggested a hormone level check for her, HD? 
Have you tried marriage counseling? Sex therapy? 
Any history of abuse? 
Kids in the picture? 
And last but not least, does she seem more interested in sex with you when you are less interested in sex with her?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bug,
Every total beta I encounter tends to use emotionally loaded words to describe aggression. Words like predatory. 

Sounds like you've already created some major tension in the bedroom by being whiny. And that you let your wife hold grudges as long as she wants. 

Kind of sad really. 

Don't knock aggression just because you haven't learned to do it right. 


QUOTE=abuginarug;8452513]I'm also in this boat. A marriage to my best friend, but she doesn't seem to seek sex for pleasure. And she used to when we were dating! Our so I thought... [There are other 
(slowly aging and healing) issues in my marriage, but that's outside the scope here.] 

If I was to try what mem suggests, my wife would actively resist and be repulsed. Unless she was horny. On top of that she would probably not feel comfortable with me in the room for months. She does not appreciate predatory sexual behavior, and that's exactly how she would take it. Sex is so far from the front of her mind, she would see it as me "just wanting to have my way with her" 

I tried the alpha thing last year after reading mmsl. It's totally bogus. Confidence is what women find sexy. Some women (and men) confuse dominance for confidence.

I see people fake "dominance" all the time - I call it posturing. If I can spot it, a woman can spot it 10 times better.

Back on track, have you suggested a hormone level check for her, HD? 
Have you tried marriage counseling? Sex therapy? 
Any history of abuse? 
Kids in the picture? 
And last but not least, does she seem more interested in sex with you when you are less interested in sex with her?[/QUOTE]


----------



## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

*Re: Re: willing but not wanting*



MEM11363 said:


> Bug,
> Every total beta I encounter tends to use emotionally loaded words to describe aggression. Words like predatory.
> 
> Sounds like you've already created some major tension in the bedroom by being whiny. And that you let your wife hold grudges as long as she wants.
> ...


The word predatory has no inherent emotion. Any beta you smell from my direction is projected. And alpha/beta is pseudo-science at best. It doesn't translate to real life leadership and confidence (aka away from a message board...)

I've seen you post good stuff in the past mem, but telling this guy to take his wife could really confuse him more. 

I can throw down a lady like a champ and I'm sure HD can, too - but it's not what my wife likes. I can't speak for his wife, but something tells me she won't be chiming in so we'll have to see what HD thinks.

Some women just don't want it. Choosing to stay with a woman like that is a personal decision.


----------



## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> If I was to try what mem suggests, my wife would actively resist and be repulsed. Unless she was horny. On top of that she would probably not feel comfortable with me in the room for months.


That's because you're coming from a position of weakness and not one of strength. Women will follow a husband who is a strong leader, but a weak one irritates them no end. 



> Confidence is what women find sexy. Some women (and men) confuse dominance for confidence.
> 
> I see people fake "dominance" all the time - I call it posturing. If I can spot it, a woman can spot it 10 times better.


Yes, posturing is bad. Posturing calls attention to yourself. Dominance calls attention to what you want done. There is a big difference. Women do crave dominance. However, you have to do it right. It has to be done with her benefit in mind. Ordering someone around because you want something is just needy. That's anything but sexy. So, you have to do it not because you're taking, but because you're giving--and she's gonna enjoy it. 

For instance, you can order your wife to strip or give you a BJ or whatever, but you have to do it because it makes her feel sexy and turned on. If she knows it's all about you and what you can get from her and you're just a whiny guy who needs "relief" then she won't oblige. It's not about the command, it's about the dynamic between you. 

Be confident. Make things happen.


----------



## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

HDsocal said:


> I think there is a group of HD spouses (mostly men I think) that have the same situation that I’m in. Let’s call it the Loving, willing, but not wanting spouse. Let me try to define the situation and see if I’m right about my guess that there are a lot of people in the same situation as me.
> 
> -Loving relationship, my relationship is loving where we both respect each other and in my case my Wife truly is my best friend. I don’t know how some of you put up with the sexual problems combined with the mental or physical abuse. I do look forward to being with my wife, and want better sex WITH her, not just better sex.
> 
> ...



I would have your W's hormones checked. LD in many cases is a Low T issue with men but can also be hormonal for women as well. I don't know how old your W is but if she is in or approaching peri menopause, that can wreak havoc on a woman's hormone levels.

Have her see a hormone specialist, specifically bio-identical hormones. My W did that a few years back when her sensation and libido began to decline. It turns out that it was a testosterone thing. Yes, women need testosterone too, just not at the levels we men do. If a woman's T levels drop too low, which can happen to any woman, her ability to climax is more difficult, her sensation is lacking and her libido suffers. None of it is good but it can be remedied.


----------



## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

wow, that's one way to go mem...

lets start with health, she has gone to a doctor for thyroid, under medication for that. The thyroid certainly increase her response (more willing?) but doesn't seem to increase her desire. This helped things some but not nearly enough for me.

As far as the alpha thing, tried that big time before. Lost 30+ lbs, was in control... result? just as willing, not any more wanting, plus turns out working out gets your testosterone up... ended up more HD, with increased resentment and anger. Not a good outcome.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Your wife is willing and let's you now she is ready to respond, but doesn't participate in the build up.

Direct her participation in the build up.

Send her a text and ask for her to take a pic of the panties she's wearing. Tell her you're going to be 'at her' tonight so she better be ready for anything. Tell her to be dressed in something you've already picked out. Tell her what you want her to do.

I don't know how old you are of if you have kids, but many woman never got the class on how to seduce and turn on their husbands. They were taught that men are horn dogs with sex on the brain and turning them on is like flicking a light switch.

Not a fair distribution of effort I agree. She is willing, so you've only got to instruct her on what you want her to do.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shameless-woman/201010/do-you-understand-female-sexual-desire


----------



## Sleepsalonefl (Apr 28, 2014)

HDSocal-- you polygamous bastard! You married to my wife! How you manage your time between CA and FL... I'll never figure out.

Seriously..

Sounds exactly like my wife, except lately now she's not so willing. She also would not initiated but be willing, and to a certain extent appear to enjoy herself (2 - 4 orgasims per session, how could you not?). But sex always focused on her pleasure and hitting her goal of an orgasim or two, or three as quickly as possible. We men get one shot usually... So my goal is always to take time, enjoy the moment, and not rush to get to the end. Not her.

Now it's dwindled to 1 to 1.5 times per month.... If that... And she just doesn't seem to realize or care what this does to my emotional state. To make matters worse she will occasionally suggest doing something intimate or such as a massage, and like a dummy I fall for it every time thinking she is sincere (and I think in her own head she is being sincere) but anywhere from five to fifteen minutes later it's like she never said anything... And if I dare bring it up (what she suggested) she gets pissed at me like somehow I made her forget. And all I can think is "What the heck?" -- it wasn't my idea!

FWIW , my wife has had some hormonal issues (been to many many doctors, no one can quite figure it out). But one thing that came of all the doctors is that she has low testosterone. As in not measurable low-- i.e Zero. Without T, its game over, your sex life is done. Women absolutely MUST have some T or they will have absolutely ZERO sex drive. If you are with a woman, treating her right, caring for her emotional, physical, security needs, etc and she has NO interest in physical intimacy (may be "willing" but zero interest), and you wake up and realize "Hey, this woman could go for the rest of her life and NEVER have sex and not even notice!"-- then you should suspect low T levels. 

You can get a test done to measure T levels and get a prescription from your doctor (it may need to be via injection but its no big deal). A safe low does will do the trick. My wife tried it for a period of time-- the result was the best, most passionate sex of my life! Now, she claims that low T was not the problem and refuses to take any T supplement. But this is self deception. I know because in the past she would tend cycle on and off it... And when on it, she was a completely different animal-- actually initiating sex, in one instance nearly begging me for it!! Now, without the T shots-- ZERO interest. Ergo, the T levels in her body are key.

I am praying and fighting the resentment, rejection, bitterness and depression as best I can... But it is very difficult. When the resentment or depression hits hard... I wish she would be on T injections for, say, 90 days and I could have zero sex drive. Then she would know what it is like to have high sex drive with no reciprocation. I still vividly recall the time about 4 weeks back, the last time she had the T supplement... So late at night before I have to leave on a long trip, she is completely on fire... pretty much tearing my clothes off, writhing with desire, begging for it etc... Meanwhile for once im totally not in the mood-- I'm exhausted, its late at night, and I have a 3.5 hour drive ahead of me. Now if that situation were reversed, she would have NO problem telling "tough, go pray and ask a god for grace to deal with it". Instead she's saying, "please, how can you leave me like this! Pleae, please don't do that to me! Please it won't take long, I'll make it worth it!" I'm thinking, Uh, really now... That's how I feel at least two or three times a week and you don't even care (and if I were to mention I'm desperately on fire, of course she gets pissed). So in this case of course I caved because it had been over two weeks with nothing... But then I leave feeling weak, controlled, ashamed of myself. I wish I had the strength to tell her, gently, "Sorry, hon... Gotta go... But talk to God, he'll give you the grace." (if I did that she would be pissed. And hurt. And up all night.)

Women think they have so much insight into men, emotions and psychology but they are completely clueless when it comes to this issue. If a woman wants to tear down a man, emasculate him or destroy his self confidence, just continually show no physical interest in him. That's really all it takes. What I cannot understand for the life of me is why, if a wife truly loves her husband, can she not make an effort or go with the flow (cheerfully that is) to meet this need? Are we truly that repulsive to them? (rhetorical question-- I too am in very good shape and get noticed by women... And I am stable, kind, good provider, good credit, reliablemetc etc etc). So why is this so excruciatingly difficult? It's not like having a root canal...

I keep praying to be delivered from this high sex drive. I don't want it anymore.. What good does it do me? My wife could care less and she is my only source and resource for sexual intimacy. I just wish I were like her... Able to never have sex and never notice... But it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

And any women (or emasculated men) spare us the typical drivel about "you have to pursue he, date her, surprise her, buy her flowers, do her dishes and wash, cook her dinner, take her on trips, etc etc etc". GIVE ME A BREAK. If that is what a women requires, or what a man believes he is required to give in exchange for sexual intimacy-- why, that is nothing more than prostitution! BTW, I am not against doing any of those things and more for the love of your life-- but do it out of and for love, not to buy sex. Imagine if that argument were reversed from the man to woman: "honey, you need to cook, clean, do the dishes, fold the laundry, do the groceries, watch the kids, clean house, and give me sex... and maybe, just maybe if I happen to feel like it and am not too tired or having a bad hair day, why maybe I will give you an hour or so of love, affection, affirmation and security. And if you're really good, maybe I'll pay the mortgage and the light bill." Ridiculous! 

So... Good luck, you're not alone. Maybe your wife love you enough to see a doctor, check her hormones and try Testosterone therapy. Its also possible there could be unaddressed brokenness or other un dealt with emotional trauma in her life... If so you both will need to root that out and address it.


----------



## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Sleepsalonefl said:


> HDSocal-- you polygamous bastard! You married to my wife! How you manage your time between CA and FL... I'll never figure out.
> 
> Seriously..
> 
> ...


I must admit that I can't understand how your wife could not see the totally different behavior sexually when on T medication vs off of it. What's up with that?

My W gets her levels checked at least twice a year by her Gyno. The Labs are a snapshot in time but they are living proof of what your T levels are at that moment. When your W is taking T medication, have her do some blood work to get her levels measured. Then have her take the labs again when she's off of it. The Lab results will be the clear evidence you need to convince her that she needs to be taking T medication.

I'm baffled by your W's response. If taking her T medication makes her ravenous for sex, why in the world would you ever voluntarily stop taking it? That's just senseless to me.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

HDSocial and Sleepsalone, could you possibly show your wife this thread? Your pain and frustration are CLEAR to me in a way that my husband was never able to express to me for years. I had to read the stories of men like you on TAM before the light bulb went off. Granted, we had arrived at a place where our marriage was suffering for many reasons and we just could not communicate, but I did not understand how sex only a few times a month for a HD man could affect every aspect of his life and happiness. 

That being said, I have also been on the side of trying to drum up desire when I had none for my husband. I often see the higher drive spouses say that the low drive spouse should "just do it" or "just find a way" out of love. But if you don't have the drive--be it psychological or hormonal--it's like telling a person to "just get over" hurt feelings or "just eat those brussel spouts." Can it be done? Yes? Is it easy and pleasurable? No? And eventually, "fake it til you make it" or "sucking it up" for the sake of the marriage has a risk of ending in emotional distance or resentment. 

Getting to the bottom of the cause for the low drive (IF indeed there is a cause that can be addressed) is the hard route, but the only one that will yield long term success. Of course, this takes cooperation and willingness to work from the LD spouse. Some spouses will do it out of compassion, some can be jolted into it when they realize the marriage is in jeopardy, and some will do it when their spouse starts to meet a need of theirs that had been neglected. 

I don't know which route will work for you; but I'm of the opinion that just expecting a LD spouse to go through the motions out of love isn't a good long term solution. 

Good luck to you.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

HDsocal said:


> As far as the alpha thing, tried that big time before. Lost 30+ lbs, was in control... result? just as willing, not any more wanting, plus turns out working out gets your testosterone up... ended up more HD, with increased resentment and anger. Not a good outcome.


The willing but not necessarily wanting is not at all uncommon. A couple of factors to consider:

1) Responsive desire - she just does not think of sex all that often, but is very willing to engage when you take the lead.

2) Good girl syndrome - good girls don't chase. They don't initiate. They only like sex when a man "makes" them and never admit it afterward.

3) Difference in initiation - some women initiate by invitation. So think of her as opening the door, but leaving you to be the one to walk into the house. 

4) Need for something more - some women have difficulty admitting that they like sex to be rougher. More aggressive sex, with him taking control, can be a big turn on (see point 2 above).

So look at these and see which, if any, might apply. It may be that you will always have to be the one who is working harder on this. It is not fair, but those are the breaks (probably some areas where she works harder than you). But if you can identify any of the above, you can work through them to get a better balance (and one where she might start initiating in a way even you can see).


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

IMHO the dominance thing only works with some types of women.

You've got to be careful about this and know your wife.
I've had some women who want this, but others don't.
One size doesn't fit all.

ESPECIALLY with sexual abuse survivors (and there are lots of them) this type of dominance can trigger traumatic past events and really screw them up


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,
Good for you to get in shape. As for the dreaded T boost, I know it well, it not only raises your frustration level, it makes for a generally more aggressive response pattern. 

I'm a nightmare to be around if I lose my sense of humor in that context. But humor and aggression, or Playfullness and aggression are a magical combination. 

At 51, it is very difficult to get a strong sexual response from M2. And that makes the playful part of things all the more important. 

If it wasn't for the fact she craves my touch, and is a fine wrestling partner the lack of raw desire would hurt a LOT more. 




HDsocal said:


> wow, that's one way to go mem...
> 
> lets start with health, she has gone to a doctor for thyroid, under medication for that. The thyroid certainly increase her response (more willing?) but doesn't seem to increase her desire. This helped things some but not nearly enough for me.
> 
> As far as the alpha thing, tried that big time before. Lost 30+ lbs, was in control... result? just as willing, not any more wanting, plus turns out working out gets your testosterone up... ended up more HD, with increased resentment and anger. Not a good outcome.


----------



## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I also agree that dominance only works for some types of women and even then not at all times. Most importantly, even women who would like it as a change of pace would get tired of it if you tried it on a regular basis. And I am sure what you are seeking is an ongoing change.

I have done that from time to time in the past but my wife only likes it if she is already somewhat in the mood. If she wasn't she might comply and play along, but that is all it would be. 

My wife also seems to enjoy sex once it is started and generally she will go along with me if I initiate but that is not what I am looking for. I am not looking simply for permission to have sex with her. 

My own situation sounds very similar to yours. After reading about ld v HD marriages for years I think almost all the advice given is pointless with the exception of letting her know exactly how you feel. Not complaints and winning but specific feelings your passionless marriage generates.

Apart from that I think the cause for most of these situations is hormonal and might change with time but in most cases it won't.

There are stories of meaningful change but situations, health and hormones change regardless of what pop psych advise you follow.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I almost never say ALL WOMEN. 

Here goes.

ALL WOMEN who trust their husbands, like to SEE, FEEL, TOUCH their husbands physical strength. Raw strength is hot. 

As for how one goes about making that a mutually beneficial thing, that's individualized. 

It could be as mild as carrying her into another room. Or as extreme as getting her to spar with you. Non sexual wrestling does not require a horny partner. But might produce one. 

Sexual predator is about as emotionally loaded an adjective for a man as you can find. If your use of words and their emotional subtext is like this at home, I imagine you sleep on the couch a lot. 




abuginarug said:


> I'm also in this boat. A marriage to my best friend, but she doesn't seem to seek sex for pleasure. And she used to when we were dating! Our so I thought... [There are other
> (slowly aging and healing) issues in my marriage, but that's outside the scope here.]
> 
> If I was to try what mem suggests, my wife would actively resist and be repulsed. Unless she was horny. On top of that she would probably not feel comfortable with me in the room for months. She does not appreciate predatory sexual behavior, and that's exactly how she would take it. Sex is so far from the front of her mind, she would see it as me "just wanting to have my way with her"
> ...


----------



## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

MEM, your first response to the OP on this thread was terrifying to me when i first read it. I know my wife would respond to that, but i can't see myself doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

*Re: Re: willing but not wanting*



MEM11363 said:


> I almost never say ALL WOMEN.
> 
> Here goes.
> 
> ...


If you're really going to delve into semantics and subtext, I never said "sexual predator" - I said my wife would interpret a command to strip as predatory sexual behavior. And my command of words and emotional subtext is keen enough to keep me "off the couch."

My wife would not see a command to strip as a mutually beneficial arrangement, the same way she would not see a threat of punishment and clothing removal as a precursor to non-sexual wrestling.

Perhaps she doesn't trust me, but now you're adding another layer of complexity that your original suggestion failed to acknowledge. 

If it were a easy as physical strength, I wouldn't have a desire problem with my wife. And 50+ year-old guys wouldn't have a shot with 20-30 year-old women.

The issues in my marriage are more complex than just strength and dominance, and may be all Greek to me... But not alpha/beta greek.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

"ALL WOMEN who trust their husbands, like to SEE, FEEL, TOUCH their husbands physical strength. Raw strength is hot. 

As for how one goes about making that a mutually beneficial thing, that's individualized. 

It could be as mild as carrying her into another room. Or as extreme as getting her to spar with you. Non sexual wrestling does not require a horny partner. But might produce one. 

Sexual predator is about as emotionally loaded an adjective for a man as you can find. If your use of words and their emotional subtext is like this at home, I imagine you sleep on the couch a lot."
MEM11363

I had a girlfriend who knew karate/judo.

Occasionally for fun, she would take me down. It was kind of a turn-on.

maybe it works both ways????


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

It seems to me that you are probably married to a pretty typical woman. 

-Likes sex once started but simply does not build her world around her sex life and does not require much. 

I would also say that describes my wife. 


Some fairly small percentage of women do respond to what mem is describing and I suppose that it is worth some exploration.

Others would be offended by that sort of behavior. 

_"She understands in principal but doesn’t understand (or worse, does but doesn't care) how important this is to work on."_

She probably can not really relate since she does not have that level of desire.

About the best you will probably be able to do is probably a fairly tame sex life. You will continue to be the initiator and she will continue to be a passive follower. 

About all you can do is make the experience as enjoyable for her as possible so that she will be more receptive. If she is willing to follow direction you are better off than a lot of people and maybe over time she will change (hopefully for the better).


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MYM,
Honesty and self awareness are a beautiful thing. 

It's often best to do new things gradually. 
- A casual slap on the ass 
- A non sexual wrestling match

One thing I do 100% agree with: posturing is bad

If you can't find your edge, don't pretend to have it. 




MYM1430 said:


> MEM, your first response to the OP on this thread was terrifying to me when i first read it. I know my wife would respond to that, but i can't see myself doing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

When M2 battles me to a draw - THATS hot. 

Strength is universally hot in both genders:
- physical
- mental 
- emotional 
- spiritual 





jorgegene said:


> "ALL WOMEN who trust their husbands, like to SEE, FEEL, TOUCH their husbands physical strength. Raw strength is hot.
> 
> As for how one goes about making that a mutually beneficial thing, that's individualized.
> 
> ...


----------



## onedge (Nov 27, 2013)

Yes...a loving dominance is a beautiful thing. Strength and caring is the ultimate.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bug,

That's a fair distinction regarding your use of predatory. 

FYI: You combined two independent and distinct options that I described in an earlier post. 

I suggested that non sexual wrestling was a playful way to assert physical dominance. The intent was for said wrestling to be done clothed. Sorry if that wasn't clear. 

Humor me for a moment. 

M2 and I had an unresolved conflict based on her not sharing some rather inflammatory information with me. 

Think of it as the emotional/marital equivalent of a quadruple bypass. Beneficial provided the patient (marriage) doesn't die on the table. 

She started by doing this - emotional anaesthetic / stabilization thing to me. It was one of the most extraordinary demonstrations of emotional dominance I have ever experienced. 

She said: I need to tell you something, but I'm afraid. 
Everything else was facial expression and body language. 

And then she did the surgery. It was good for our marriage, for both of us. 

Total emotional dominance followed by a mutually beneficial (symbiotic) bit of marital surgery. 

Dominance is neither good nor bad. It is simply a situation in which you are given or take on a disproportionate amount of control / power. Modern civilization is based on large group cooperation which requires a dominance hierarchy. 

Winston Churchill
General George MacArthur 
Steve Jobs
Andy Grove
Bill Gates
Al Capone
Tony Soprano




abuginarug said:


> If you're really going to delve into semantics and subtext, I never said "sexual predator" - I said my wife would interpret a command to strip as predatory sexual behavior. And my command of words and emotional subtext is keen enough to keep me "off the couch."
> 
> My wife would not see a command to strip as a mutually beneficial arrangement, the same way she would not see a threat of punishment and clothing removal as a precursor to non-sexual wrestling.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sleepsalonefl (Apr 28, 2014)

intheory said:


> @sleepsalonefl
> I'm a stranger to you. But by this written description you've provided; it's more than obvious that your wife needed and benefited from testosterone therapy.
> 
> Why would she think that that wasn't the problem, and consequently stop taking it? That is the heart of the matter.


I figured when I posted such a statement I would have to explain it. The simple answer is, she thinks the cause is entire spiritual (not physical, or more accurately the physical symptoms are a result of the spiritual). This forum is not the place to explain that in detail, so accept it at face value.

Anyway, the longer answer is in addition to the above, she feels as if she is forcing herself to do something she doesn't want to do in order to please me, and it has harmed her body. 

The first results from years (decade I guess) of what she has interpreted as being forced to have lots of sex, and from her point of view, being treated as a sex object. Now I am a very educated and intelligent guy, but I have no guile-- I will never be a poker player, I take people at face value and I rarely if ever suspect the motives of others (I assume people are nice, not selfish, not full of a hidden agenda, etc, so)... Therefore, if she was participating enthusiastically, then I assumed she was also enjoying. Look, if you shiver and shake and have four orgasms and verbally confirm your pleasure (before and after)-- then I take it at face value thst you find the experience enjoyable and worth repeating. How am I to know you are harboring all kinds of resentment because the whole time you feel like you're being treated like an object? 

The second part, regarding testosterone harming her body, was due to the initial does being too high (quite a bit too high). This caused some interesting side effects such as enlarged clitoris, heightened sensitivity it that area, much more rapid response to touch/stimulation, increased lubrication, and more intense orgasms. At the same time she developed a rather large ovarian cyst, which gave her a huge cancer scare (any symptom she has is a major disease scare whereas I am like, don't worry about it, it will go away). Ultimately the cysts she attributed to the T shots. It is quite possible this was the cause, although it was not confirmed by the doctor, some don't know for sure. However that being said a proper low does will not cause ovarian cysts (and it will not cause other symptoms described as well) but it will make a huge difference in desire and response.

Her attitude became "I've made myself do things for years and years that I didn't want to do just to please you, and I AM NEVER DOING THAT AGAIN FOR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE." (Meaning, I sm never making myself go thru with anything I don't feel like in order to please someone else).

If you listen to her talk, you'd think I was a neo-rapist, disgusting pervert forcing her to have sex with animals ( for the record, that was not the case). I was subject to a porn addiction that started in childhood and continued through adulthood. (early on in the relationship we watched some porn together and I though she enjoyed it, but not crazy about it. how was I to know she hated if she didn't tell me?). So it became a habit not involving her for ages. But long story short, that *was* a spiritual condition, and I have been completely delivered from it for a while now. It is so far removed from me now, that even when I am completely desperate and she is ignoring me, I still do not resort to porn (in fact, I don't even use self pleasure any longer as a substitute to get by).

What's long answer for such a simple question! But these issues are never simple.

I should point out that we had sex earlier this week, so I suppose as far as she is concerned I am all set for a couple of weeks. I can say it wasn't anything to write home about, but it had been long enough and I was desperate enough if she would have said, 'Go ahead and do it while I take a nap', I probably wouldn't have refused. But afterward, she explained to me how hard it was for her to do that, how she had to mentally/spiritually strengthen herself and suck it up to go through with it. So being refused by your wife is pretty bad for your self esteem, but listening to her tell me how she had to suck it up to go through with it is quite... I want to say "devastating" but that's not the right word-- it has too much passive, feminine connotations of emotional hurt that don't apply in this case. Hmmm, I think this analogy better describes it: it's like coming home from work, meeting your wife at the door with a loving hug and kiss (that she reciprocates) and then getting a swift, powerful and completely unexpected kick in the nuts.

And my wife used to drive me crazy by not dressing modestly around the house or around me knowing she doesn't want sex and I'm visually stimulated. Of course she knows I'm visually stimulated (former porn addition, duh) even to the point of expecting me to look away from any nude scenes in R movies yet would dress/undress around me and dress with her goodies hanging out (or bouncing around house with no bra and hard nipples), or tight shorts with lots of cleavage, walk around in panties etc then get pissed at me if I make a move or a suggestion. Now you need to understand, this nothing's intentionally provocative (in her mind) but also she would NEVER dress this way to go to the gym because she "would not want to be responsible for causing men to lust after her." So I say to her, I get it that you aren't up for sex and that's OK, but could you cover up a little bit please? Of course, that would make her pissed off too.

So I've finally learned: shut up, and let her behave however she wants to behave and just deal with it. (but I can be strategic! Instead of contacts, I wear only glasses around the house. If she's dressing like that just take the glasses off. If I can't see it, I can't want it. Hah. Only drawback is bumping into stuff...).

After that kick in the nuts I'm pretty sure I will never be indulging in that (desperate) behavior again. Something snapped, I think. Since then I could care less what she thinks of me (sexually or otherwise). I'm done pursuing her, if she turns around somehow and wants to fix the sexual relationship, I'm here. But I'm done asking, begging or chasing for it. If I get desperate, I'll find somewhere else productive to put that energy. (like rolling, ossss)

By the way, a while back I was found to have low Testosterone, and I started supplementing. I noticed my sex drive was actually at its highest during the low T period of my life (counterintuitive, I know). But I stopped the T for a while thinking that was the problem. In fact I was looking for ways to lower T further thinking it would help the HD issue. Not so. After the snap, I am back on T and finding myself much calmer, less depressed and generally happier. And I am back to working out hard, and it's glorious.

So men, get your T tested and if you are low, get that fixed you will feel better. And maintain muscle mass better and burn fat better. And work out better. And be less fatigued in general.

So my advice: love your wife, be kind to her, work through her emotional issues/needs but do something for you! If its all about her you will end up in serious depression. Take your life back! Work hard, play hard, love your family, and work out even harder. EVERY man with HD who is married to a low D woman absolutely OWES it to himself to take up martial arts. I highly recommend jiujitsu or kickboxing, but you pick whatever. It's far better than the gym because it increases self confidence in all areas of your life (as I told my wife once, after having 210lb brown belt sitting on your chest for ten minutes in 90 degree heat in a 15lb gi trying to choke you out or joint lock you, how intimidating can that board room presentation be?) and its interactive with other people, and you will be learning skills that have very really practical application in the unlikely event your life is threatened. And unless your a total gym rat, BJJ or kickboxing will get you ripped like nothing else (assuming your diet is good).

All the physical fatigue and other fog over me snapped as well, and I'm back to myself and working out again for real (prior to this I've managed may 4 jiujitsu classes in as many months, last week alone I've done 4 classes and everyone I've rolled with has said, 'what happened to you? You are so much faster, stronger and more pressure than before.').

Also, if you do it right, you'll be too exhausted to worry about sex. And there's nothing to relieve stress like punching someone in the face and getting punched back, I might add (sparring with gloves people, with gloves).. 

Interestingly my wife says to me this week, "you seem different... Are you angry?" No, I'm not angry. "are you stressed?" Well, sometimes at work,but no not in general. She says, I can't figure it out but you seem different... you seem like your 'fed up with something.' Hah go figure. Priceless!


----------



## Sleepsalonefl (Apr 28, 2014)

Also I want to add something to the above:

Men, get every and all forms of porn out of your life for good. Get every form of visual stimulation out of your life. Stop watching TV. Cancel your cable. Turn off the Internet if you have to. Stop watching youtube. Stop reading men's or women's magazines, especially the 'health' or 'exercise' variety. That includes swimsuit issues and sports mags. Look the other way when you see a hot woman (including your wife). If you can't look the other way, fix your gaze intently on her eyes only (only if you are having a conversation, otherwise its creepy). 

It seems extreme, and it is, but you will not believe the difference it will make in your life. It will solve half of your sex issues! And it believe it or not, it will give you power. When you engage in any of the above things, you are essentially ceding control and giving power over you to the woman (whether she be in front of you, in an ad, or your house). 
And don't be surprised if, combining with getting fit, women find you strangely attractive. These are few things more frustrating to attractive woman than your lack of interest (go figure).


----------



## fghzhen (May 4, 2014)

Can anyone else relate to this?


----------



## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

Fantastic post! Truer words have hardly been spoken, especially the 2nd paragraph

-seahorse




GettingIt said:


> HDSocial and Sleepsalone, could you possibly show your wife this thread? Your pain and frustration are CLEAR to me in a way that my husband was never able to express to me for years. I had to read the stories of men like you on TAM before the light bulb went off. Granted, we had arrived at a place where our marriage was suffering for many reasons and we just could not communicate, but I did not understand how sex only a few times a month for a HD man could affect every aspect of his life and happiness.
> 
> That being said, I have also been on the side of trying to drum up desire when I had none for my husband. I often see the higher drive spouses say that the low drive spouse should "just do it" or "just find a way" out of love. But if you don't have the drive--be it psychological or hormonal--it's like telling a person to "just get over" hurt feelings or "just eat those brussel spouts." Can it be done? Yes? Is it easy and pleasurable? No? And eventually, "fake it til you make it" or "sucking it up" for the sake of the marriage has a risk of ending in emotional distance or resentment.
> 
> ...


----------



## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

Your wife dresses provocatively in front of you but won't respond sexually... Hmm, that's interesting. Sounds almost like she's lost respect for you. 

To be honest the overall tone of your posts is one of passivity. I recognize you are frustrated, and you have every right to be. But if you weren't willing to follow up the complaints you made known to her with action, you must accept blame for the continuation of this problem. 

I am a Christ follower also, but I assure you I would not be living under the same roof with a wife who dresses that seductively and subsequently and persistently denies sex. That is torment, and I wouldn't stand for it. 

What is it you are afraid of?

-seahorse 




Sleepsalonefl said:


> And my wife used to drive me crazy by not dressing modestly around the house or around me knowing she doesn't want sex and I'm visually stimulated. Of course she knows I'm visually stimulated (former porn addition, duh) even to the point of expecting me to look away from any nude scenes in R movies yet would dress/undress around me and dress with her goodies hanging out (or bouncing around house with no bra and hard nipples), or tight shorts with lots of cleavage, walk around in panties etc then get pissed at me if I make a move or a suggestion. Now you need to understand, this nothing's intentionally provocative (in her mind) but also she would NEVER dress this way to go to the gym because she "would not want to be responsible for causing men to lust after her." So I say to her, I get it that you aren't up for sex and that's OK, but could you cover up a little bit please? Of course, that would make her pissed off too.
> 
> So I've finally learned: shut up, and let her behave however she wants to behave and just deal with it. (but I can be strategic! Instead of contacts, I wear only glasses around the house. If she's dressing like that just take the glasses off. If I can't see it, I can't want it. Hah. Only drawback is bumping into stuff...).
> 
> ...


----------



## Sleepsalonefl (Apr 28, 2014)

seahorse said:


> Your wife dresses provocatively in front of you but won't respond sexually... Hmm, that's interesting. Sounds almost like she's lost respect for you.
> 
> To be honest the overall tone of your posts is one of passivity. I recognize you are frustrated, and you have every right to be. But if you weren't willing to follow up the complaints you made known to her with action, you must accept blame for the continuation of this problem.
> 
> ...


Not sure where you get passive from, but whatever. I have been very controlling and in charge. A couple years after we were married, I told my wife I'm looking for a job in a certain (southern) state and planned to move. She said, what if I don't want to go? What if I like it here and don't want to live there? I told her flat out: "Well, too bad for you. I grew up here and I hate it. I'm moving whether you like it or not, if you want to be with me you can come; if not, I'm going." She went. 

Also, I manage the finances. I let her buy/do what she wants (within very wide latitude of reason) but I make the decisions. For many years, I didn't even ask for her input. I just said, 'This is the way its going to be.' She didn't work, didn't clean, didn't cook, didn't have kids, didn't have hobby or volunteer, didn't keep the fridge stocked, etc-- but she wanted to manage the money. Thought she'd have some skill or gifting I didn't and things would go better (as if a different person doing the math changes the answer). So I flat told her that may well be, but Learn to do some of the other things first (i.e. get a job, or take care of the house, cook, groceries.. SOMETHING... anything) and then I will give you a crack at the finances." She was (and is) a very intelligent woman, just IMO didn't have her act together. My message was "You want more responsibility? Get your act together." As men, we've heard this over and over all our lives, probably from about the first day we understood English. Women, I guess, not so much. You say that straight out to a woman (as I did) and they have a flip. Probably, still resents me for that too. 

FWIW, she knew well before marrying me I had this plan. Speaking of which she knew ALL of my flaws prior to marriage such as sexual perversion (porn, etc-- now gone, see earlier post), very very high sex drive, controlling/dominating spirit, visually stimulated, self-centered, impatience, etc etc. She knew these well before we got married. Unlike many dating relationships, I showed her EVERYTHING. I let it all hang out. I hid nothing bad about myself. In fact, probably more than anyone else, I hit her with all of it full on in the face (I was a very different person back then). I suppose I was expecting to see this stuff and walk. She didn't, married me anyway. I guess she just didn't take it seriously or thought she could "change" me after fact. I suspect still resents me for it. From my point of view, I can't understand the resentment. If it was hidden, I could understand it. Like her lack of interest / fulfillment in sex-- that was hidden. But my mess was so hidden...and you said "yes" anyhow.

So am I passive? Don't think so. However, I've been freed of that controlling spirit and repented of the unkind way I had been treating and managing my wife for many years, and the emotional damage that has done still needs some healing. So I backed off quite a bit. Sometimes the pendulum swings a little too far to the other side, but it always swings back. If you are a Christ follower you know walking in humility (humble) is fundamental. Being humble before anyone, but especially your wife (where intimate relationship produces intense emotions) is not easy. It takes love. And love is not a feeling/emotion. It is a decision of will. 

What comes to your mind when you say the term "dressing provocatively" is highly unlikely the same as what is actually going on. It is not overt, but let's say just enough cleavage to stimulate me. Maybe minor to others, but I am very visually stimulated. And my wife is hot. Very hot. No, really, she's attractive (I'm pretty sure she doesn't get this either). I know all (OK, most) men think their wife is hot. But I'm pretty darn sure most, if not all, men think my wife is hot. (I know this more because of how their wive's react-- the wife's reaction is the giveaway! My wife says, 'I don't get it, why do they hate me? What did I do to them?' I'm like, 'Look in the mirror babe, then look at them. They deeply resent you for being nearly 40 and looking far better than they ever did at 30. Duh.')

I'm sure in her mind the provocation is not intentional-- she just DOES NOT GET IT (and at this point doesn't want to). I have told her clearly-- go put something else on, dress more conservatively if you aren't in the mood, fine. Her response is dismissive, uncomprehending, and angry (like-- you don't have a right to tell me what to do). I am sure the hostility stems from my wife's past experience with my dominating spirit. Unfortunately women think they have such psychological insight because they spend so much time in analyzing their emotions. The fact is they are completely clueless about what goes on in the minds of men. So many things you can try to explain to them-- the need for sex, the whole visual stimulation thing-- they just don't get it. It's like trying to use words to describe the color blue to a person who has been blind for life! Unless their eyes are opened, they just won't get it.

What am I afraid of? Not a lot, but there are a few things. Judgement. Hell. Seeing my boy grow up in some else's house... yeah there are a few things I'm afraid of.


----------



## Sleepsalonefl (Apr 28, 2014)

I should point out-- all the nasty stuff about myself I posted above is not going on any longer, and hasn't been for years now. Even my wife admits this. People who knew me even a few years ago see the difference. I also want to point out, my wife also 'has her act together' so to speak. It wasn't until many years after getting married that I realized her lacking in the earlier days of marriage were an utter lack of life skills due to her upbringing, not laziness. 

Some of the best advice I can give those who are planning to marry: Learn about your spouse's "Father' House". Be a student of it. Study it in minute detail. This will give you a very very accurate preview of what your life will look like after marriage.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Sleepsalonefl said:


> Not sure where you get passive from, but whatever. I have been very controlling and in charge. A couple years after we were married, I told my wife I'm looking for a job in a certain (southern) state and planned to move. She said, what if I don't want to go? What if I like it here and don't want to live there? I told her flat out: "Well, too bad for you. I grew up here and I hate it. I'm moving whether you like it or not, if you want to be with me you can come; if not, I'm going." She went.
> 
> Also, I manage the finances. I let her buy/do what she wants (within very wide latitude of reason) but I make the decisions. For many years, I didn't even ask for her input. I just said, 'This is the way its going to be.' She didn't work, didn't clean, didn't cook, didn't have kids, didn't have hobby or volunteer, didn't keep the fridge stocked, etc-- but she wanted to manage the money. Thought she'd have some skill or gifting I didn't and things would go better (as if a different person doing the math changes the answer). So I flat told her that may well be, but Learn to do some of the other things first (i.e. get a job, or take care of the house, cook, groceries.. SOMETHING... anything) and then I will give you a crack at the finances." She was (and is) a very intelligent woman, just IMO didn't have her act together. My message was "You want more responsibility? Get your act together." As men, we've heard this over and over all our lives, probably from about the first day we understood English. Women, I guess, not so much. You say that straight out to a woman (as I did) and they have a flip. Probably, still resents me for that too.
> 
> ...


So, read your first 3 paragraphs. During this period you had a good sex life. Now read your 4th paragraph. After this change, you have a bad sex life. And you don't think you being passive is playing a roll? You need some serious introspection.


----------



## Sleepsalonefl (Apr 28, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate the honesty. 

But if you are going to call me out on being passive, call me out specifically. Quote me exactly where I am being passive... quoting my entire 8 paragraph diatribe doesn't but it.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Sleepsalonefl said:


> However, I've been freed of that controlling spirit and repented of the unkind way I had been treating and managing my wife for many years, and the emotional damage that has done still needs some healing. So I backed off quite a bit.


Fine, since you have a hard time remembering your own story.... isn't it since this changed that your sex life also changed. Didn't she rather like the controlling guy you described in the first 3 paragraphs?

How can you not get this? How can you keep denying that you're passive when you yourself say that you changed to the softer side?


----------



## Sleepsalonefl (Apr 28, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Fine, since you have a hard time remembering your own story.... isn't it since this changed that your sex life also changed. Didn't she rather like the controlling guy you described in the first 3 paragraphs?
> 
> How can you not get this? How can you keep denying that you're passive when you yourself say that you changed to the softer side?



Nope, she didn't rather like the controlling guy. She hated him, and still hates that guy. But stuck around for many reasons but lets simplify it to because she believed that was not the "real me". Also keep in mind those years with the porn issue, she also felt treated like a sex object. Going along with something and endorsing or liking it are two different things, bro. If I do something that reminds her even tangentially of the "old me" she shuts down for days, or a week, at a time (literally emotionally shuts down and goes into a very dark place).

The sex life has gradually changed over the years... Less drive/desire on her part oer a number of years, didn't happen overnight even if I made it sound that way.


----------



## Laralie (May 2, 2014)

I could have written 90% of your original post HDsocal. It's not just men, there are women in the same boatshoes as you.


----------



## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

It has been my experience, both in life and in marriage, that self-sacrifice is a virtue until taken to the extreme. Then it becomes self-deprecation. Playing the victim is a dangerous place to be, and 9 times out of 10 will cause your spouse to lose respect and attraction. Think about that. 

According to your original post and several ups, you don't seem to be ready to fight for the legitimate needs you claim that you have. If these sexual needs are that important to you -- (and I have no doubt they are) -- your wife would naturally expect to see more follow through on your part. She might harbor secret desire to see you "fight for your ground" about those things which, to you, are not negotiable. To roll over is to admit you are beta, easily broken, and not worthy of respect.

Quite obviously this isn't meant to encourage you to return to your history of strong-arming or selfishness. But you should be looking for middle ground where you both win. If she simply isn't willing, you should progressively and lovingly raise the stakes. 




Sleepsalonefl said:


> Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate the honesty.
> 
> But if you are going to call me out on being passive, call me out specifically. Quote me exactly where I am being passive... quoting my entire 8 paragraph diatribe doesn't but it.


----------



## MotherNature (May 9, 2014)

I feel like this is me except its flip flopped and my husband acts like your wife. Ive gone into a depression over it.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------

