# The Dad Bod vs Toned In Shape



## southbound

I’ve heard several times lately on talk shows and the internet that a survey has been done, and more women are attracted to “dad bods” than the six pack ab bod. From what I gather, the dad bod has a little chubby stomach. Is this really true? 

I’ve never been a gym rat, I’ve not had a six pack since I was 20(51 now), and I’ve never been one to stress over food labels; however, I have never just totally let myself go. The closest I ever came was in the last year when I noticed my stomach was getting to be a little more than I cared for, so I took action again with eating better and exercising more; I am happy to say I am now back to what I like within just a few months.

I suppose when one is focused on something, we tend to notice it in others. I have noticed that a large number of people are not what I would call “in shape.” Just about every man I know with any age has some form of “gut,” some more than others. I even notice a lot of teens who are carrying around a lot of fat. I also notice it with women.

I was sitting with some people at a training lately, and one guy mentioned that his wife told him he was getting fat; however, not in a negative way. She was just making an observation, and he said they agreed that they enjoyed food too much to worry about it. I understand that if a person is married to someone they love, a few pounds doesn’t matter, but if a guy decided he was going to start eating healthier and start working out, is his wife really going to say, “No, I’m more attracted to you with more fat?”

As I said, I’m not a gym rat, and my body doesn’t look like Stallone, but it looks more like his than it does Kevin James’s body. I’m curious about people where you all are from. Do most seem unconcerned about being out of shape? Is being slightly out of shape really more attractive to women than being fit? I know there are medications, health conditions, and genetics, that can affect our body, but I feel that with most it’s just a matter of eating too much and low activity.


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## samyeagar

This is a complicated one. Just as complicated as womens bodies and attraction. Lots of caveats. A few extra pounds in the context of being well into a long term relationship is very different than just entering the dating pool, and then is the dating for hookup's or in search of a long term relationship?

I don't buy for one second that the dad bod is generally or broadly considered more attractive than the six pack on the open dating market. Women look for hot fit guys, and if I was going onto the open market, I'd rather take my chances with the six pack than the dad bod any day of the week.


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## southbound

samyeagar said:


> This is a complicated one. Just as complicated as womens bodies and attraction. Lots of caveats. A few extra pounds in the context of being well into a long term relationship is very different than just entering the dating pool, and then is the dating for hookup's or in search of a long term relationship?
> 
> I don't buy for one second that the dad bod is generally or broadly considered more attractive than the six pack on the open dating market. Women look for hot fit guys, and if I was going onto the open market, I'd rather take my chances with the six pack than the dad bod any day of the week.


I certainly can’t speak for women, so I started this post to get women’s opinions, but I thought the same as you. 

One guy argued on a talk show that if women are starting to prefer dad bods, it’s probably because that’s about the only choice they have anymore.


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## Mr.Married

I retain the opinion that fitness is the key ingredient to long term mobility. Once you lose mobility you are Fcked. Just like weed is the gateway to crack, dad bod is the gateway to immobility. I don't care what the girls think... But I know I care about my health. I've never joined a gym. So light jogging, push ups, and not eating like a pig is all it takes.


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## Cynthia

If a woman prefers a man with a "dad bod," it's only because she has a "mom bod." Just sayin.


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## ConanHub

I have an anti dad bod and I get a LOT of attention as well as touched from women of all ages.

I would say they like beefcake for the most part.

There is, I'm sure, a minority who like dad bods.


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## Mr.Married

CynthiaDe said:


> If a woman prefers a man with a "dad bod," it's only because she has a "mom bod." Just sayin.


Love it ....... So true !!!

Don't get me wrong there are plenty fantastic mom bods out there. It has everything to do with the head attached to them. A fantastic girl can make many pounds "invisible".


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## TheDudeLebowski

I don't have a problem with people smoking weed. However, when hiring I would require they pass a drug test. Meaning, knowing you are out there applying for work, if you can't refrain long enough to piss clean, chances are you are worthless. Now, after the piss test and I see you're a good worker, I wouldn't care what you do in your free time. 

Similarly, if you can't at least stay in decent shape when dating and looking for a girl, then if I were a girl I wouldn't "hire" you. After being together a while and seeing you as a worthy partner, 10-15 pounds wouldn't bother me.


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## Faithful Wife

Always keep in mind that women don't like to hurt men's egos, that we are primed to be people pleasers and be "nice", we don't tell people truths that may hurt them if we can avoid it. In this particular case, that ends up meaning that a whole lot of women are going to say they "like dad bods" because their man has one.

As someone else pointed out, if the same woman's husband suddenly got a fit bod, the wife would certainly tell him and everyone else she felt more attraction toward him. She still may not prefer it, especially if she herself doesn't feel fit and attractive.

For some women, whether she is that attracted to the guy's body or not doesn't really play into her sex life that much (she may be plenty happy for sex with dad bod, fit bod, or whatever). I have known women who were simply in love with the body of every guy they ended up with. These would be very HD women, definitely.

I'm HD but I don't feel that way. A dad bod is going to actively turn me off to a point that I will not be able to ignore it.


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## Yeswecan

Truth be told, I got more looks when I lost 25 pounds.


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## x598

with the exception of a huge sigh of relief from the potato chip and fast food industry...… what a bunch of malarkey.


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## EllisRedding

First off, the problem is how this comparison is done. Somehow with these studies, being fit is only defined as having a 6 pack which is absurd. Likewise, the "dad bod" description is getting applied to guys who have much more than a little pudge on them... If you look at the studies, the rationale for women stating they "prefer" dad bods is typically:

1) The idea that a fit guy is going to be more focused on himself than his partner...
2) Women being self conscious about their own body, which being with someone in better shape would make them more self conscious
3) The idea that "dad bods" will be more faithful (well, b/c less women would find them attractive...)

As you can see with all the above, it has zip to do with women actually being *attracted* to Dad bods. Any guy who rolls around with a dad bod thinking that with these studies he is going to have women fawning over him is in for a rude awakening.

The reality as well. When women gain weight, in general (and within reason) it typically goes to T&A, which will draw in men. Men on the other hand, typically weight goes to the stomach and man boobs, areas that are likely not considered attractive or selling points to women ( you won't hear many women saying they want a man with some titties to squeeze lol).

When you get out of a relationship and need to hit the singles scene, what is usually the typical advice? Hit the gym and lose weight. You wouldn't tell a guy to go extra hard on the bacon fries...

Keep your weight in check, keep your health in check. You don't need a 6 pack in any way to draw in women, but showing that you care enough to take care of your body will go a long way.


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## 20yr

When they did that survey, were the men looking over their wife's shoulder? "Sure honey, I love that dad bod!"

Seriously, I think most of us would prefer a fit guy with abs but, in real life, we have to settle for something realistic. It also depends on how you define a dad bod. I'd like someone who can take a hike or climb stairs without gasping for breath but don't need him to be able to run a marathon.

I will say that if a guy is obsessed with his six-pack, I would wonder how much time he would have for me in between visits to the gym.


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## SunWhiskey

Went from 6 pack to dad bod. I couldn't beat the women off with a stick with a 6 pack. Literally had to put in 0 effort. They were making the moves. Attention all the time. Now with a dad bod and divorcing, I'm getting very little initial attention. If I don't initiate first, forget about it.

If I post an old pic on my dating profile, tons of matches..Current pic.. None. Roughly 30 lbs of fat difference between 6 pack and currently. 

What people say vs reality is a different story. A 6 pack will definitely get your foot in the door more often and way more easily. Sure, I got used a lot just for sex. I didn't mind.


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## TheDudeLebowski

EllisRedding said:


> The reality as well. When women gain weight, in general (and within reason) it typically goes to T&A


I dont know about that one.


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## SunWhiskey

20yr said:


> I will say that if a guy is obsessed with his six-pack, I would wonder how much time he would have for me in between visits to the gym.


I never really understood this concern. It's way more about a healthy diet than it is exercise. Ever see the scrawny guys with 6 packs? They've never seen a gym.

I'd say a more valid concern is the increase in the number of opportunities he is presented with to cheat. If he has morals, that isn't a concern either.


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## Cynthia

SunWhiskey said:


> I never really understood this concern. It's way more about a healthy diet than it is exercise. Ever see the scrawny guys with 6 packs? They've never seen a gym.
> 
> I'd say a more valid concern is the increase in the number of opportunities he is presented with to cheat. If he has morals, that isn't a concern either.


A person doesn't have to devote his/her life to exercise in order to have a six pack. I disagree that it's all about diet. It is about diet and exercise. Up until I stopped exercising six months ago, I had a six pack, but I'm having trouble adjusting my schedule for school. I'll work out this summer and make a better plan to workout come fall quarter. I need about 50 minutes five days a week to maintain a six pack. I'm 55 years old.

I don't workout to gain a six pack. That was the result of working to be fit and feel healthy.


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## EllisRedding

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I dont know about that one.


In general, it usually goes into areas that men (some (Many?) find attractive (within reason).


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

I can only add that I've gone from six pack to a little too comfortable in eating anything I wanted, finally having like five years with a little pooch.

Then a year ago back to eating better for health and older metabolism, to a pretty good six pack again for an older gentleman and arms that again show full muscle detail.

It's been some work, yes.

But where I've always gotten attention in a suit, like work, now in jeans and T shirt or swim trunks again get hit on again. Unneeded, but nice, to be honest.

No more Dad bod. DW says she likes the muscles, and tells me when her girlfriends comment that "lucky her".

I'm the lucky one, but it's nice to hear.


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## TheDudeLebowski

EllisRedding said:


> In general, it usually goes into areas that men (some (Many?) find attractive (within reason).


Maybe the genetics where you live. Latina women have this thing where it seems like they can't gain wait below their belly. Lots of women with a very high center of gravity in Texas.


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## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> First off, the problem is how this comparison is done. Somehow with these studies, being fit is only defined as having a 6 pack which is absurd. Likewise, the "dad bod" description is getting applied to guys who have much more than a little pudge on them... If you look at the studies, the rationale for women stating they "prefer" dad bods is typically:
> 
> 1) The idea that a fit guy is going to be more focused on himself than his partner...
> 2) Women being self conscious about their own body, which being with someone in better shape would make them more self conscious
> 3) The idea that "dad bods" will be more faithful (well, b/c less women would find them attractive...)
> 
> As you can see with all the above, it has zip to do with women actually being *attracted* to Dad bods. Any guy who rolls around with a dad bod thinking that with these studies he is going to have women fawning over him is in for a rude awakening.
> 
> The reality as well. When women gain weight, in general (and within reason) it typically goes to T&A, which will draw in men. Men on the other hand, typically weight goes to the stomach and man boobs, areas that are likely not considered attractive or selling points to women ( you won't hear many women saying they want a man with some titties to squeeze lol).
> 
> When you get out of a relationship and need to hit the singles scene, what is usually the typical advice? Hit the gym and lose weight. You wouldn't tell a guy to go extra hard on the bacon fries...
> 
> Keep your weight in check, keep your health in check. You don't need a 6 pack in any way to draw in women, but showing that you care enough to take care of your body will go a long way.


Definitely agree that when I say fit, I don’t mean a 6 pack. I just mean you don’t have a gut, your man muscles are visible (because this is typical for fitness), but visible abs only points to an extreme lack of body fat. It does not mean a person is more fit than a similar body without visible abs.

That normal tiny layer of fat most people have that prevents the abs from being visible is fine. It’s lovely in fact. 

It’s when that layer becomes a gut that robs the attraction for me. It’s the gut, not the lack of visible abs. No bueno


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## Faithful Wife

SunWhiskey said:


> Went from 6 pack to dad bod. I couldn't beat the women off with a stick with a 6 pack. Literally had to put in 0 effort. They were making the moves. Attention all the time. Now with a dad bod and divorcing, I'm getting very little initial attention. If I don't initiate first, forget about it.
> 
> If I post an old pic on my dating profile, tons of matches..Current pic.. None. Roughly 30 lbs of fat difference between 6 pack and currently.
> 
> What people say vs reality is a different story. A 6 pack will definitely get your foot in the door more often and way more easily. Sure, I got used a lot just for sex. I didn't mind.


Please don’t ever ever use old pictures of when you were fit on dating profiles. Just no.

I get it, you can get hits that way which you know now. But it’s silly and deceptive to do so and automatically makes you untrustworthy.


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## EllisRedding

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Maybe the genetics where you live. Latina women have this thing where it seems like they can't gain wait below their belly. Lots of women with a very high center of gravity in Texas.


So when did I start living around latina women lol?

Plenty of times you see women lose weight and guys comment about how their boobs deflate alongside.


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## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> Plenty of times you see women lose weight and guys comment about how their boobs deflate alongside.


And yet there are boob men who love 'em deflated (called hangers). And men who love thick women, no matter where they are thick. I'm not saying this is normal or common. I just don't see the same thing coming from women. Women are *NEVER* going to sexualize and drool over a guy with hanger man boobs full of stretch marks, or big bellies and fat asses. Yet there is no shortage of men loving women like this (again not that they are the average man, but there are enough of them to be very visible and present). There are even sites for big women who are only into very fit men, and there are thousands of fit men who are down for this.

It just seems to me to confirm the thing about the difference in genders and what each will be attracted to sexually. It seems that women are more able to be attracted to a fit man, and men are more able to be attracted to a wider variety of body types.


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## TheDudeLebowski

EllisRedding said:


> So when did I start living around latina women lol?
> 
> Plenty of times you see women lose weight and guys comment about how their boobs deflate alongside.


So you think men find woman attractive that have the build of Dog the Bounty Hunter's wife on the top half, and a Kenyan long distance runner on the bottom half? 

"I've been eating two extra cupcakes per week to make my tits and ass bigger" said no woman ever.


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## ConanHub

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Maybe the genetics where you live. Latina women have this thing where it seems like they can't gain wait below their belly. Lots of women with a very high center of gravity in Texas.


Try ******* Heaven in northern Fort Worth. There are shapely gals there. There are also ******** who spank each other and that is kind of scary...


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## EllisRedding

TheDudeLebowski said:


> So you think men find woman attractive that have the build of Dog the Bounty Hunter's wife on the top half, and a Kenyan long distance runner on the bottom half?
> 
> "I've been eating two extra cupcakes per week to make my tits and ass bigger" said no woman ever.


Um, where exactly did I say that? I am not making a universal statement that all women gain weight in the same manner. Comparing men to women, in general from what I have seen it favors women to some extent.


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## Mr. Nail

D


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## TheDudeLebowski

EllisRedding said:


> Comparing men to women, in general from what I have seen it favors women to some extent.


I think that's because you're a heterosexual man.


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## EllisRedding

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I think that's because you're a heterosexual man.


Did you just assume my sexual orientation 

I mean, you are right and all, trying out my SJW card that just came in the mail today


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## Mr. Nail

Faithful Wife said:


> Please don’t ever ever use old pictures of when you were fit on dating profiles. Just no.
> 
> I get it, you can get hits that way which you know now. But it’s silly and deceptive to do so and automatically makes you untrustworthy.


In that case I'm 5'2" and 350lbs I'll at least look better than expected. Just say no to online dating, Just No.

Sorry too late to delete this one. thanks for the reply


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## Faithful Wife

Mr. Nail said:


> In that case I'm 5'2" and 350lbs I'll at least look better than expected. Just say no to online dating, Just No.


As you are a married person, I agree, just say no to online dating. :surprise:

As for the single persons, just face what you really look like and put it out there.


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## Buddy400

Some women might prefer a dad-bod for a relationship, but that doesn't mean they prefer dad bods over toned and in shape.


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## SunWhiskey

CynthiaDe said:


> A person doesn't have to devote his/her life to exercise in order to have a six pack. I disagree that it's all about diet. It is about diet and exercise. Up until I stopped exercising six months ago, I had a six pack, but I'm having trouble adjusting my schedule for school. I'll work out this summer and make a better plan to workout come fall quarter. I need about 50 minutes five days a week to maintain a six pack. I'm 55 years old.
> 
> I don't workout to gain a six pack. That was the result of working to be fit and feel healthy.



WAY MORE about diet than, not ALL. Your diet allows you to shed the fat to show off your muscles, the excercise only gives you something worthy to show off. You can have a 6 pack and still look like a pool noodle.

Here's the deal with that, you could still have the 6 pack without the excercise, but you have to adjust your diet accordingly. Can't stop exercising and keep eating the same and expect to not gain weight. I didn't say* all *about diet. Those were your words. It is mostly about diet however. A 6 pack is directly related to the amount of fat you have covering it up. Once again, ever see those 6 pack 15 year old Justin Bieber types? They don't have a gym membership, they eat very little and have a high metabolism. Exercise will make you look better overall as your muscles are larger and fuller, but it's not a requirement to be shredded.


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## SunWhiskey

Faithful Wife said:


> Please don’t ever ever use old pictures of when you were fit on dating profiles. Just no.
> 
> I get it, you can get hits that way which you know now. But it’s silly and deceptive to do so and automatically makes you untrustworthy.




I said "IF" I do that.

You do understand that I was making a point correct? I made it obvious. I'm not actually using old pictures on my dating profile.





While we are on the subject, women should using the top down photo angle to try and hide their double chins and posting 0 body photos.


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## Buddy400

20yr said:


> I will say that if a guy is obsessed with his six-pack, I would wonder how much time he would have for me in between visits to the gym.


This


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## Cynthia

From what I have seen, it's mostly about exercising those muscles so they are well toned. I was a skinny girl, but didn't have a six pack. When I started exercising my abs, I got a six pack. I have seen this with numerous young, thin people. I think people that have six packs are also doing exercises for their abs.

Either way, eating well and regular exercise is good.


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## Affaircare

I find this topic funny because I actually do indeed prefer the dad bod to the 6-pack...to a degree. 

I don't love folks who are so skinny that when you hug them, they feel like bones in a skin sack. 

I don't love folks who are so muscular that they feel hard when you hug them. 

BUT I also don't love folks who have so much of a tummy they can't tie their own shoes! LOL

Nor do I love folks who have so little muscle that they can't take a hike or push themselves a bit. 

I'm 57yo. I don't want some guy my age who's a gym rat with 0% body fat, a shaved chest, and a ripped 6-pack. My perfect preference would be a guy who is my age or close enough to relate, who has a few miles under his belt, a wrinkle here and there, gray hair on his head and chest, who is fit enough to play hard but also likes food enough to enjoy it as a pleasure in life.


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## SunWhiskey

CynthiaDe said:


> From what I have seen, it's mostly about exercising those muscles so they are well toned. I was a skinny girl, but didn't have a six pack. When I started exercising my abs, I got a six pack. I have seen this with numerous young, thin people. I think people that have six packs are also doing exercises for their abs.
> 
> Either way, eating well and regular exercise is good.




It's not a requirement. You just had too much fat while you were skinny.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

SunWhiskey said:


> WAY MORE about diet than, not ALL. Your diet allows you to shed the fat to show off your muscles, the excercise only gives you something worthy to show off. You can have a 6 pack and still look like a pool noodle.
> 
> Here's the deal with that, you could still have the 6 pack without the excercise, but you have to adjust your diet accordingly. Can't stop exercising and keep eating the same and expect to not gain weight. I didn't say* all *about diet. Those were your words. It is mostly about diet however. A 6 pack is directly related to the amount of fat you have covering it up. Once again, ever see those 6 pack 15 year old Justin Bieber types? They don't have a gym membership, they eat very little and have a high metabolism. Exercise will make you look better overall as your muscles are larger and fuller, but it's not a requirement to be shredded.


I'm in full agreement, the diet is key. It can slim you until muscle definition shows, and reasonable excercise keeps up mobility if one wants to do no more.

Because without mobility, well, you know. That sucks.

I've had broken bones caused issues when younger, and even back surgery. 

Gotta work to get back. But worth it.

Best - a good diet contributes to good cholesterol numbers etc, although it's not a guarantee.


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## Faithful Wife

SunWhiskey said:


> I said "IF" I do that.
> 
> You do understand that I was making a point correct? I made it obvious. I'm not actually using old pictures on my dating profile.
> 
> While we are on the subject, women should using the top down photo angle to try and hide their double chins and posting 0 body photos.


Totally agree on the top down photos. Men and women both look so distorted from a bottom up photo.

But if they actually have double chins, I don't think a person should try to hide that per se. It's definitely normal not to post your worst angle, but also unfair to post only angles that don't show what you actually look like. So if ya got double chins, just a normal front on photo that allows the viewer to make up their mind based on what they would usually be looking at.

Chins don't always bother me because some people just have a really chubby face even if they are fit and this can cause what looks like a double chin. I like chubby faces.

Also agree on posting no full body shots, male or female, this is a red flag.


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## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> Some women might prefer a dad-bod for a relationship, but that doesn't mean they prefer dad bods over toned and in shape.


It also doesn't mean she will be sexually attracted to him. She may just want the relationship and be willing to let her sex drive go dormant to get it.


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## Cynthia

SunWhiskey said:


> It's not a requirement. You just had too much fat while you were skinny.


lol No. I did not.


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## Cynthia

This is a woman who knows what she wants.

Congratulations on finding him! lol 

Based on your description, you don't want someone hard. This would be either too thin or too muscular. You like someone who has some give to him.



Affaircare said:


> I find this topic funny because I actually do indeed prefer the dad bod to the 6-pack...to a degree.
> 
> I don't love folks who are so skinny that when you hug them, they feel like bones in a skin sack.
> 
> I don't love folks who are so muscular that they feel hard when you hug them.
> 
> BUT I also don't love folks who have so much of a tummy they can't tie their own shoes! LOL
> 
> Nor do I love folks who have so little muscle that they can't take a hike or push themselves a bit.
> 
> I'm 57yo. I don't want some guy my age who's a gym rat with 0% body fat, a shaved chest, and a ripped 6-pack. My perfect preference would be a guy who is my age or close enough to relate, who has a few miles under his belt, a wrinkle here and there, gray hair on his head and chest, who is fit enough to play hard but also likes food enough to enjoy it as a pleasure in life.


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## Faithful Wife

I have this weird feeling and I don’t know if it’s true. It seems true but I would like other’s input.

I feel like it annoys men to hear that women like a fit body. I feel like it annoys them to hear we don’t like to see a gut and it turns us off.

Not all men. Some are very clear that women appreciate a fit body.

But some men seem to get insulted by this. 

Maybe I’m not reading correctly and I don’t mean anyone on this thread. It just comes out sometimes in these discussions. Where if women state preferences for fitness men get weird about it.

And then the 10% thing gets thrown around. And they feel angry they can’t reach the 10% because of some kind of fated genetic thing.

Yet...nothing is stopping any man from getting more fit. And if the base population of men were between moderate and very fit, then the 10% would become 50%.

Since it is within men’s control to up their fitness and they have every reason to understand that this will be sexually advantageous to them, then I can’t really work out why instead they would complain that women are shallow or whatever.

Like bottom line...is it not just obvious and reasonable that a fit man is attractive to women? Why is this something we have to kind of advocate for? Why is it not just what men understand they have to do to be attractive?

I also feel like the myth that men are visual and women are not plays into this. Of course some men want to believe this, it lets them off the hook to be fit. But then women see a guy who looks like Conan and go bat chit. How can that be explained if the visual didn’t turn us on?

Seems that men simply have more women they consider attractive around in the world and so they have more visually sexy things to look at than we do.


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## SecondWind

Affaircare said:


> I'm 57yo. I don't want some guy my age who's a gym rat with 0% body fat, a shaved chest, and a ripped 6-pack. My perfect preference would be a guy who is my age or close enough to relate, who has a few miles under his belt, a wrinkle here and there, gray hair on his head and chest, who is fit enough to play hard but also likes food enough to enjoy it as a pleasure in life.


From your Excellent Adventure thread it looks like you have your perfect man.:smthumbup:


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## WorkingWife

Interesting question. I am definitely turned off by the musclebound "body builder" body types where you wonder how they don't topple over when they walk and how can the scratch their back.

But beyond that if I were to compare a physically fit male body to a slightly out of shape one, I'd probably find the fit body more attractive to look at. However, when it comes to real live human being that I know and interact with, I think the slightly out of shape one may be more sexy/attractive simply because total fitness conveys a sense that the person is obsessed with physical perfection, probably vain and self absorbed and judgmental of my body and habits too. Even if the guy was not like that, I'd probably feel insecure around him over my own body imperfections, especially being a woman with cellulite and such.

Thinking back to relationships and body types, I'd have to say the looks and body are not a very big part of what makes a man attractive to me as long as their not really fat or sickly. I'd definitely rather have a few extra pounds over some muscle than someone really skinny.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> I have this weird feeling and I don’t know if it’s true. It seems true but I would like other’s input.
> 
> I feel like it annoys men to hear that women like a fit body. I feel like it annoys them to hear we don’t like to see a gut and it turns us off.
> 
> Not all men. Some are very clear that women appreciate a fit body.
> 
> But some men seem to get insulted by this.
> 
> Maybe I’m not reading correctly and I don’t mean anyone on this thread. It just comes out sometimes in these discussions. Where if women state preferences for fitness men get weird about it.
> 
> And then the 10% thing gets thrown around. And they feel angry they can’t reach the 10% because of some kind of fated genetic thing.
> 
> Yet...nothing is stopping any man from getting more fit. And if the base population of men were between moderate and very fit, then the 10% would become 50%.
> 
> Since it is within men’s control to up their fitness and they have every reason to understand that this will be sexually advantageous to them, then I can’t really work out why instead they would complain that women are shallow or whatever.
> 
> Like bottom line...is it not just obvious and reasonable that a fit man is attractive to women? Why is this something we have to kind of advocate for? Why is it not just what men understand they have to do to be attractive?
> 
> I also feel like the myth that men are visual and women are not plays into this. Of course some men want to believe this, it lets them off the hook to be fit. But then women see a guy who looks like Conan and go bat chit. How can that be explained if the visual didn’t turn us on?
> 
> Seems that men simply have more women they consider attractive around in the world and so they have more visually sexy things to look at than we do.


The reality is of I bulked up, got a nice tan, dressed GQ, and had a perfect smile, I would still get less women than if I put on 30 pounds and drove a Lamborghini. 

The guys who have the great hair, great butt, rock hard abbs, and drives a lambo are already taken.

Men do what will get them the best chance at the most poon. Money and status being the best tool to have in your bag. If women's actions and not just words led men to believe being jacked and fit was the ultimate tool to have, you would see more jacked and fit men.


----------



## hptessla

Faithful Wife said:


> Always keep in mind that women don't like to hurt men's egos, that we are primed to be people pleasers and be "nice", we don't tell people truths that may hurt them if we can avoid it. In this particular case, that ends up meaning that a whole lot of women are going to say they "like dad bods" because their man has one.
> 
> As someone else pointed out, if the same woman's husband suddenly got a fit bod, the wife would certainly tell him and everyone else she felt more attraction toward him. She still may not prefer it, especially if she herself doesn't feel fit and attractive.
> 
> For some women, whether she is that attracted to the guy's body or not doesn't really play into her sex life that much (she may be plenty happy for sex with dad bod, fit bod, or whatever). I have known women who were simply in love with the body of every guy they ended up with. These would be very HD women, definitely.
> 
> I'm HD but I don't feel that way. A dad bod is going to actively turn me off to a point that I will not be able to ignore it.


Please expand on the part where if the woman doesn't feel attractive she may not prefer the fit husband's body. If a husband doesn't gain weight while the wife does is it the same effect as if the husband loses weight?


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

I'll give a great example even. If Donald Trump weren't rich, how many women would he get? He's an ugly person on every level. Physically, personality, you name it. As ugly as they come. Gets women. What's the difference maker? When women show men it's not all about money, we will adapt.


----------



## Faithful Wife

hptessla said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Always keep in mind that women don't like to hurt men's egos, that we are primed to be people pleasers and be "nice", we don't tell people truths that may hurt them if we can avoid it. In this particular case, that ends up meaning that a whole lot of women are going to say they "like dad bods" because their man has one.
> 
> As someone else pointed out, if the same woman's husband suddenly got a fit bod, the wife would certainly tell him and everyone else she felt more attraction toward him. She still may not prefer it, especially if she herself doesn't feel fit and attractive.
> 
> For some women, whether she is that attracted to the guy's body or not doesn't really play into her sex life that much (she may be plenty happy for sex with dad bod, fit bod, or whatever). I have known women who were simply in love with the body of every guy they ended up with. These would be very HD women, definitely.
> 
> I'm HD but I don't feel that way. A dad bod is going to actively turn me off to a point that I will not be able to ignore it.
> 
> 
> 
> Please expand on the part where if the woman doesn't feel attractive she may not prefer the fit husband's body. If a husband doesn't gain weight while the wife does is it the same effect as if the husband loses weight?
Click to expand...

Some women will feel very body conscious if they are out of shape but their man isn’t. In those cases, even if the wife would be more attracted to her husband if he was more fit, her insecurities about her own body will make it so that she cannot relax and enjoy sex. So his being more attractive is not a net gain sexually to her.

Not true for all women. Some will enjoy sex even if they are not in shape themselves and will for sure be more attracted to a fit man even if she isn’t fit.

Some non fit women feel sexy and desirable anyway and some don’t.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> I have this weird feeling and I don’t know if it’s true. It seems true but I would like other’s input.
> 
> I feel like it annoys men to hear that women like a fit body. I feel like it annoys them to hear we don’t like to see a gut and it turns us off.
> 
> Not all men. Some are very clear that women appreciate a fit body.
> 
> But some men seem to get insulted by this.
> 
> Maybe I’m not reading correctly and I don’t mean anyone on this thread. It just comes out sometimes in these discussions. Where if women state preferences for fitness men get weird about it.
> 
> And then the 10% thing gets thrown around. And they feel angry they can’t reach the 10% because of some kind of fated genetic thing.
> 
> Yet...nothing is stopping any man from getting more fit. And if the base population of men were between moderate and very fit, then the 10% would become 50%.
> 
> Since it is within men’s control to up their fitness and they have every reason to understand that this will be sexually advantageous to them, then I can’t really work out why instead they would complain that women are shallow or whatever.
> 
> Like bottom line...is it not just obvious and reasonable that a fit man is attractive to women? Why is this something we have to kind of advocate for? Why is it not just what men understand they have to do to be attractive?
> 
> I also feel like the myth that men are visual and women are not plays into this. Of course some men want to believe this, it lets them off the hook to be fit. But then women see a guy who looks like Conan and go bat chit. How can that be explained if the visual didn’t turn us on?
> 
> Seems that men simply have more women they consider attractive around in the world and so they have more visually sexy things to look at than we do.


Looking at a few of these posts, I don't think that fit is unattractive but other considerations and possibly even bias goes into what ultimately someone "allows" themselves to be attracted to. Insecurities seem to play a part as well.

People want to feel comfortable.

I can personally attest that for every woman that doesn't like fit, there are 9, 10 or more who do.

I'm not a fitness snob either. I find all kinds of women attractive as long as they have a woman's shape.

Interesting thread anyhow with good conversation.


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## Ikaika

I’m 58 going on 59, no dad bod here. But, I don’t workout to rid myself of a dad bod. I workout in a gym where I am the old guy. What that means is that I don’t have to preen around trying be someone I am not... I’m pretty ugly anyway. 

My bigger concern nowadays are maintaining stable non-pharmaceutical vitals - BP, HR, body fat%, etc... as well as blood and urine vitals. Since heart disease runs in my family, I am very concerned about regular exercise (although my wife thinks I go overboard) and eating healthy. 

My guess with the dad bod craze it is born out of some Hollywood actors who just don’t want to workout and trying to promote themselves with this new fashion. And, that is fine, no big deal to me. 

I live a healthy lifestyle for other reasons, a better than dad bod is simply icing on the cake for my wife. 


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## notmyjamie

hptessla said:


> Please expand on the part where if the woman doesn't feel attractive she may not prefer the fit husband's body. If a husband doesn't gain weight while the wife does is it the same effect as if the husband loses weight?


I think there is something to be said for someone who isn't fit and solid with abs of steel wanting someone who fits that same description. As a young 20yo, I was about 15lbs overweight. Of course, I felt like I was about 300lbs overweight. A very fit, very handsome man asked me out. I couldn't make heads or tails of why????? :surprise: We dated for about 6 months and the entire time I felt insecure. 

Fast forward, I am now about 35lbs overweight. I don't even look at super fit guys. Give me a guy with some problem areas of his own so I don't have to worry and obsess about my own as much. 

I am working on losing the weight but at my age it comes off slowly. I gained 55lbs from some medical problems a few years ago. Will I change which guys I show an interest in as I continue to lose? Maybe, maybe not. I guess I won't know until I've lost the last 35. But I do know, that looks are not the first thing I think about when I think of what I want in a man. Never have been and never will be.


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## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'll give a great example even. If Donald Trump weren't rich, how many women would he get? He's an ugly person on every level. Physically, personality, you name it. As ugly as they come. Gets women. What's the difference maker? When women show men it's not all about money, we will adapt.


He is 6’3 and was a handsome reasonably fit man until his 60’s.

Where is the confusion. Yes he would have gotten poon if he was broke. No brainer.

I hate the guy but he was totally ****able. His insides were **** then and now but his outsides at one time were hot.


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## notmyjamie

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'll give a great example even. If Donald Trump weren't rich, how many women would he get? He's an ugly person on every level. Physically, personality, you name it. As ugly as they come. Gets women. What's the difference maker? When women show men it's not all about money, we will adapt.


Even if he had all the money he claims to have, no power on earth could make me interested in him. The idea just makes me gag. I'll never understand some women. :scratchhead:


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## ConanHub

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'll give a great example even. If Donald Trump weren't rich, how many women would he get? He's an ugly person on every level. Physically, personality, you name it. As ugly as they come. Gets women. What's the difference maker? When women show men it's not all about money, we will adapt.


Hold on. He is quite aged but was handsome when younger and he is very tall.

Physically, he would attract many. Because he is also very ambitious, talented with money and rich, well I can't say I wouldn't be charmed by a tall, good looking rich lady who expressed interest in me either.:wink2:


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## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> He is 6’3 and was a handsome reasonably fit man until his 60’s.



I would not know how to consider what is handsome, but this statement says it all... once you hit your later 50s and into your 60s (for men that is) it is a quick downhill slide. It happens almost over night. You wake up and bam, ugly. Granted not that I was ever handsome, but damn, to from ugly to really ugly, oh well 



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## Ikaika

I figure a guy who is really good looking with a dad bod, can still attract women. 


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## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> He is 6’3 and was a handsome reasonably fit man until his 60’s.
> 
> Where is the confusion. Yes he would have gotten poon if he was broke. No brainer.
> 
> I hate the guy but he was totally ****able. His insides were **** then and now but his outsides at one time were hot.


Fair enough, but I can't change tall. Fact is if I were suddenly single and I had 100 extra hours to devote, I would use the majority to gain wealth and status. That's going to get me the best chance at the most women. 

Fat ugly broke dudes get poon. I'm talking about the greatest tool in the bag. Being tall and muscular might be #2. Its still not the best tool you can have in your bag. Just go to your local high end mall, pick a bench of your choice (I would go with one near The Body Shop, or cinnabon to enjoy the smell while you sit) then just people watch. Hot women with slob looking rich guys left, right, and center. 

Women do it too. Whats the best tool? Your looks. How many women get plastic surgery compared to men? It's not even close. Women spend more on clothes. Their hair. Make-up ... Why? Thats the best tool you can have in the bag. 

Men and women both like to fill out surveys talking about personality and all that. What do our actions show?

Guarenteed if I put on 30 pounds of muscle and changed nothing else, I would get less women than if I put on 30lbs of fat in my gut, but I had that bank account lookin nice. 

Why can't we just admit it?


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## ConanHub

Ikaika said:


> I would not know how to consider what is handsome, but this statement says it all... once you hit your later 50s and into your 60s (for men that is) it is a quick downhill slide. It happens almost over night. You wake up and bam, ugly. Granted not that I was ever handsome, but damn, to from ugly to really ugly, oh well
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Dude!:laugh:


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## TheDudeLebowski

Ikaika said:


> I figure a guy who is really good looking with a dad bod, can still attract women.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I'm ugly, short, not muscular, and broke. I did just fine with sense of humor. Im not suggesting money is the only tool that works. I'm saying its the tool that works the best for the largest number of women. It's a percentages game. Loads of women dont give a damn about money, but they are still outnumbered by the ones who do.


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## Ikaika

ConanHub said:


> Dude!:laugh:




That’s cool, one can’t help ugly at 58 but one does not have to be fat or morbidly obese. 


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## ConanHub

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Fair enough, but I can't change tall. Fact is if I were suddenly single and I had 100 extra hours to devote, I would use the majority to gain wealth and status. That's going to get me the best chance at the most women.
> 
> Fat ugly broke dudes get poon. I'm talking about the greatest tool in the bag. Being tall and muscular might be #2. Its still not the best tool you can have in your bag. Just go to your local high end mall, pick a bench of your choice (I would go with one near The Body Shop, or cinnabon to enjoy the smell while you sit) then just people watch. Hot women with slob looking rich guys left, right, and center.
> 
> Women do it too. Whats the best tool? Your looks. How many women get plastic surgery compared to men? It's not even close. Women spend more on clothes. Their hair. Make-up ... Why? Thats the best tool you can have in the bag.
> 
> Men and women both like to fill out surveys talking about personality and all that. What do our actions show?
> 
> Guarenteed if I put on 30 pounds of muscle and changed nothing else, I would get less women than if I put on 30lbs of fat in my gut, but I had that bank account lookin nice.
> 
> Why can't we just admit it?


Physical attraction is as real as attraction to wealth but they are different.

There is a lot of playing on the side where trophy wives are in place. 

The pudgy little rich oinker that attracts a gold digger, which isn't even close to the majority of women, will be at much greater risk of being cheated on.

You are only referring to gold diggers which do make up a good portion of people but hardly the majority unless I have been totally sheltered.


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## Ikaika

To me dad bod yells skinny-fat body. 


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## ConanHub

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'm ugly, short, not muscular, and broke. I did just fine with sense of humor. Im not suggesting money is the only tool that works. I'm saying its the tool that works the best for the largest number of women. It's a percentages game. Loads of women dont give a damn about money, but they are still outnumbered by the ones who do.


I haven't seen it this way but I absolutely could be uneducated about it.

I would put it in the opposite direction with loads of women being gold diggers but not close to a majority.


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## hptessla

notmyjamie said:


> I think there is something to be said for someone who isn't fit and solid with abs of steel wanting someone who fits that same description. As a young 20yo, I was about 15lbs overweight. Of course, I felt like I was about 300lbs overweight. A very fit, very handsome man asked me out. I couldn't make heads or tails of why????? :surprise: We dated for about 6 months and the entire time I felt insecure.
> 
> Fast forward, I am now about 35lbs overweight. I don't even look at super fit guys. Give me a guy with some problem areas of his own so I don't have to worry and obsess about my own as much.
> 
> I am working on losing the weight but at my age it comes off slowly. I gained 55lbs from some medical problems a few years ago. Will I change which guys I show an interest in as I continue to lose? Maybe, maybe not. I guess I won't know until I've lost the last 35. But I do know, that looks are not the first thing I think about when I think of what I want in a man. Never have been and never will be.


So...not to make this about me, but...
I married my wife when I was 41, she is 10 years younger; I'm now 54. I am still and all my adult life have been in better than average shape, I'm naturally lean and I work out and continue to play soccer. I know that she found me physically attractive and she has told me and others many times in the past that when she met me she thought I was about her age. She was a little heavy, maybe 10 pounds overweight when I met her. She is now realistically about 50 pounds over the upper end of 'ideal' weight for her height.

She knows she is fat and says it at times and jumps in and out of diet fads. I have said it to her too, in heated moments and also out of frustration with the crazy diets instead of changing eating habits and exercising. She will not and has never (even before I ever made any comments about her weight) asked me for advice or opinion on weight; she will avidly soak up advice from her similarly overweight friends/co-workers. After our last child was born, really during that pregnancy, she simply began being unavailable for sex. By that I mean going from having sex maybe once a month down to a few times a year and absolutely zero for the last 4 1/2 years. No explanation given.
She was having an affair (sexual) supposedly starting around Thanksgiving of 2018 until I discovered it in January 2019. Clearly there are numerous problems in our marriage but none that are big enough to justify an affair or simply cutting off sex in my opinion. She has maintained the last 4.5 years that she had no desire to have sex with me...clearly though sex itself was desired at some level or there would have been no extramarital sex. I have, for about the last year or two, had a feeling that some of her resentment revolves around my being fit and healthy. I clearly do not look 41 anymore but many people at our kids' school have expressed surprise that I am in my 50's...and in the last year my wife has started to get grey hair, which bothers her. She has vaguely hinted that she has 'issues' around her weight, though in high school she played travel soccer and in college and afterwards she was thin judging from photos.

Any insights?


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## TheDudeLebowski

ConanHub said:


> I haven't seen it this way but I absolutely could be uneducated about it.
> 
> I would put it in the opposite direction with loads of women being gold diggers but not close to a majority.


It's in our DNA. Women for thousands upon thousands of years chose men worthy based on their ability to provide. Men chose women based on their looks, with the caveat of what he has the best chance of getting based on what he can provide. 

Some broke ugly guy like me isn't going to uptown Dallas to find a woman. There's rich dudes there. However, There's lots of hot chicks from Royce City I can bag. 

"Out of your league" is a very real thing that has nothing to do with personality.


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## Tiggy!

ConanHub said:


> I haven't seen it this way but I absolutely could be uneducated about it.
> 
> I would put it in the opposite direction with loads of women being gold diggers but not close to a majority.


I would say now you have a chance to get with women who will be willing to hook up for a lifestyle (or a chance at a lifestyle) you can now provide. The majority don't, but even a small percentage of millions is a significant amount of women.


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## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm ugly, short, not muscular, and broke. I did just fine with sense of humor. Im not suggesting money is the only tool that works. I'm saying its the tool that works the best for the largest number of women. It's a percentages game. Loads of women dont give a damn about money, but they are still outnumbered by the ones who do.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen it this way but I absolutely could be uneducated about it.
> 
> I would put it in the opposite direction with loads of women being gold diggers but not close to a majority.
Click to expand...

Having been around normal but HD women all my life, they want a hot dude, not a rich dude.

Hot first, rich is just secondary fluff. Possibly because I’m friends with women who don’t need a man to support them. Without hot, then it is faked lust. Every woman I’ve known who went after the glitz was faking the lust, by her own admission.

You can’t fake the feeling of lust. You can fake the expression of it though.


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## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Ikaika said:
> 
> 
> 
> I figure a guy who is really good looking with a dad bod, can still attract women.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
> 
> 
> 
> I'm ugly, short, not muscular, and broke. I did just fine with sense of humor. Im not suggesting money is the only tool that works. I'm saying its the tool that works the best for the largest number of women. It's a percentages game. Loads of women dont give a damn about money, but they are still outnumbered by the ones who do.
Click to expand...

No, they are outnumbered by the women who go for hot fit bodies.


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## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen it this way but I absolutely could be uneducated about it.
> 
> I would put it in the opposite direction with loads of women being gold diggers but not close to a majority.
> 
> 
> 
> It's in our DNA. Women for thousands upon thousands of years chose men worthy based on their ability to provide. Men chose women based on their looks, with the caveat of what he has the best chance of getting based on what he can provide.
> 
> Some broke ugly guy like me isn't going to uptown Dallas to find a woman. There's rich dudes there. However, There's lots of hot chicks from Royce City I can bag.
> 
> "Out of your league" is a very real thing that has nothing to do with personality.
Click to expand...

If you’ve never been at the peak of your physical potential, you don’t know how women would react to that. Men who are there know how women react to it.

Women also react to an awesome personality, why wouldn’t we?

Don’t mistake this for our also not appreciating the physical.


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## 269370

I think it’s just the chubby ones that get annoyed....Which is weird because because fat is supposed to make you into a jolly good fella 
I mean a man with a small penis will be a bit annoyed too if women kept talking about their preference for behemothian members...

I think there might be a few other things going on too....One if them might be the disbelief that some women actually only/mainly focus on physical attributes: this happens but is not the norm. Also, women that like sex with fit bodies and say so are way too scary for regular public consumption.

I do think it doesn’t matter to majority of women whether their husband has a few extra pounds or not. So a bit of chubbiness could evoke ‘familiarity’ when they see it. I dunno. I always had the opposite problem (not enough mass to make the gravity thing do its job and keep me on the ground...Luckily I can use the penis as a lasso tool to hold onto things...Like Indiana’s Jones). Joking. My muscle/body fat percentage is actually just right. I just always wished I had bigger arms...And whenever I see men with huge arms, I just want them to cuddle me...


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## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'll give a great example even. If Donald Trump weren't rich, how many women would he get? He's an ugly person on every level. Physically, personality, you name it. As ugly as they come. Gets women. What's the difference maker? When women show men it's not all about money, we will adapt.




I think he has to get his lawyers to pay them though...


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## Andy1001

Initial attraction is based on looks. And that’s fine for a ons or a fwb relationship. It’s not going to sustain a ltr.
In my single days hotel gyms were the place where I got hit on most often and I admit I had (and still have lol) the swimmers physique and the six pack.These women didn’t know anything about me other than how I looked,I could have been the guy who cleaned the toilets for all they knew. (Or cared)
As for size not mattering,how come the sale of three inch dildoes is so low.😈


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## ConanHub

Andy1001 said:


> Initial attraction is based on looks. And that’s fine for a ons or a fwb relationship. It’s not going to sustain a ltr.
> In my single days hotel gyms were the place where I got hit on most often and I admit I had (and still have lol) the swimmers physique and the six pack.These women didn’t know anything about me other than how I looked,I could have been the guy who cleaned the toilets for all they knew. (Or cared)
> As for size not mattering,how come the sale of three inch dildoes is so low.😈


Had to give in and turn this into another penis thread didn't you?!>


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## 269370

The problem with overly muscular bodies is that the penis retracts inside/shrinks and if you don’t continue to work out everything turns into fat, according to @EllisRedding 


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## Robbie1234

Andy1001 said:


> Initial attraction is based on looks. And that’s fine for a ons or a fwb relationship. It’s not going to sustain a ltr.
> In my single days hotel gyms were the place where I got hit on most often and I admit I had (and still have lol) the swimmers physique and the six pack.These women didn’t know anything about me other than how I looked,I could have been the guy who cleaned the toilets for all they knew. (Or cared)
> As for size not mattering,how come the sale of three inch dildoes is so low.😈


Andy I know what you look like and I've seen the pictures @ConanHub has on his page. You two have no idea what the rest of us go through trying to attract a pretty woman. 
Someone said that the statement " out of your league" is true. But it's not true for everyone. 
Guy's like you two have probably never felt any woman was out of your league.


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## Andy1001

Robbie1234 said:


> Andy I know what you look like and I've seen the pictures @ConanHub has on his page. You two have no idea what the rest of us go through trying to attract a pretty woman.
> Someone said that the statement " out of your league" is true. But it's not true for everyone.
> Guy's like you two have probably never felt any woman was out of your league.


Buddy I’ll tell you something about the most beautiful woman in the world. 
Just like everyone else she farts,she takes a dump,she takes a piss and she burps. 
If you remember that when you approach her, then you will soon forget about any “out of your league” bs.


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## notmyjamie

hptessla said:


> Any insights?


Well, I don't know your wife at all. But generally speaking, a lot of women who are overweight feel very insecure about sex. My weight has always been a struggle for me. If I want to be a good weight I have to work at it constantly. I have to plan out all my meals, exercise daily, etc. It's a lot of work and sometimes other things in life start to take priority even if I don't want them to and to be honest, sometimes it just gets to be so draining that I don't do well at it. As a consequence, I've had periods of my life where I was average and periods where I was overweight. I am ALWAYS more interested in sex if I'm an average weight. (I never, ever get thin. The lowest size I can get to is an 8, my body just won't lose anymore no matter what I do, and in order to be that 8, I have to account for every morsel of food that goes in my mouth which is very draining after a while.)

So, I can see how your wife might not have wanted sex with you due to the fact that you're in good shape and she's not. Add in the fact that you've made her feel badly about her weight and the absolute last thing she's going to want to do is display her cellulitis for you. And if this OM is also not in good shape that might have made him more appealing to her as instead of feeling judged for her weight, she's feeling attractive to him. If he treated her like she was beautiful just as she is, that would be very appealing to her. Even fat women want someone to want them and be attracted to them. And they get told daily by the media, clothing stores, men, women, etc that nobody will want them because they are fat. It's really not a surprise they don't want to expose themselves and be vulnerable to someone who isn't overweight or is in good shape. 

Now, I've been through all that and been through being married to someone who doesn't want me. I still didn't cheat. So while I feel for your wife and her insecurities, I can't condone her cheating and I DO NOT give her a pass for it. 

As for why she doesn't seem to want your advice or help in losing the weight...it's because she sees your help as you saying "you're too fat and too ugly and you need to change in order to be worthy of me." I'm not saying that's what you've said, I'm saying that's what she infers from your desire to help her. I'm not quite sure how you can change that. I would bring it up in counseling. That the reason you want her to get healthy is so that she will feel more secure and therefore want to be with you again because you very much want to be with her. It's worth a shot.


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## ConanHub

Robbie1234 said:


> Andy I know what you look like and I've seen the pictures @ConanHub has on his page. You two have no idea what the rest of us go through trying to attract a pretty woman.
> Someone said that the statement " out of your league" is true. But it's not true for everyone.
> Guy's like you two have probably never felt any woman was out of your league.


I won't discount this at all. I just like to share the same as anyone about experience and observation.

Everyone has some insight.


----------



## hptessla

notmyjamie said:


> Well, I don't know your wife at all. But generally speaking, a lot of women who are overweight feel very insecure about sex. My weight has always been a struggle for me. If I want to be a good weight I have to work at it constantly. I have to plan out all my meals, exercise daily, etc. It's a lot of work and sometimes other things in life start to take priority even if I don't want them to and to be honest, sometimes it just gets to be so draining that I don't do well at it. As a consequence, I've had periods of my life where I was average and periods where I was overweight. I am ALWAYS more interested in sex if I'm an average weight. (I never, ever get thin. The lowest size I can get to is an 8, my body just won't lose anymore no matter what I do, and in order to be that 8, I have to account for every morsel of food that goes in my mouth which is very draining after a while.)
> 
> So, I can see how your wife might not have wanted sex with you due to the fact that you're in good shape and she's not. Add in the fact that you've made her feel badly about her weight and the absolute last thing she's going to want to do is display her cellulitis for you. And if this OM is also not in good shape that might have made him more appealing to her as instead of feeling judged for her weight, she's feeling attractive to him. If he treated her like she was beautiful just as she is, that would be very appealing to her. Even fat women want someone to want them and be attracted to them. And they get told daily by the media, clothing stores, men, women, etc that nobody will want them because they are fat. It's really not a surprise they don't want to expose themselves and be vulnerable to someone who isn't overweight or is in good shape.
> 
> Now, I've been through all that and been through being married to someone who doesn't want me. I still didn't cheat. So while I feel for your wife and her insecurities, I can't condone her cheating and I DO NOT give her a pass for it.
> 
> As for why she doesn't seem to want your advice or help in losing the weight...it's because she sees your help as you saying "you're too fat and too ugly and you need to change in order to be worthy of me." I'm not saying that's what you've said, I'm saying that's what she infers from your desire to help her. I'm not quite sure how you can change that. I would bring it up in counseling. That the reason you want her to get healthy is so that she will feel more secure and therefore want to be with you again because you very much want to be with her. It's worth a shot.



Thanks for the insights.

I would like to see her get healthy for looks, mainly because it's a waste of her looks being overweight; she's always been cute to me. However, part of beauty is making what you do have work to it's fullest. Carrying so much extra weight is anything but that, on anyone.

My main reason though may be even more selfish - her health. We have kids that are not yet in their teens (youngest is 7), she'll be 44 this year. I don't want her dropping over before they are full grown. I also don't want to have us both retired and her unable to walk or enjoy a good hike around a city we're visiting somewhere either. Things can happen, sure. I might end up the one unable to get around but it won't be because I haven't tried to maintain fitness and mobility and there's a difference between that and simply not caring about my health.
A little overweight is fine. I understand everyone doesn't maintain weight as easily as I do and that I seem to have a high energy level. I also enjoy working out...well, I enjoy the end of a workout. She has a good work ethic as far as her job, I don't understand that ethic not transferring to other important areas of life. To me there is no more basic piece to life than physical health, it is the most valuable thing in the material world. If I she can be motivated to work long hours and get things done there why not in the area of her own health?

Like I said, thanks for the insights. I'll continue to try and keep my mouth shut on the weight, but it's hard sometimes.


----------



## In Absentia

hptessla said:


> Any insights?


My insight would be: never call your wife "fat". My wife _is_ fat, but I always accepted her as she is. And I have told her this. This is the reason why your wife has turned off sex.

And talking about sex: 4,5 years of no sex and you are still there? No questions asked?


----------



## notmyjamie

hptessla said:


> Thanks for the insights.
> 
> I would like to see her get healthy for looks, mainly because it's a waste of her looks being overweight; she's always been cute to me. However, part of beauty is making what you do have work to it's fullest. Carrying so much extra weight is anything but that, on anyone.
> 
> My main reason though may be even more selfish - her health. We have kids that are not yet in their teens (youngest is 7), she'll be 44 this year. I don't want her dropping over before they are full grown. I also don't want to have us both retired and her unable to walk or enjoy a good hike around a city we're visiting somewhere either. Things can happen, sure. I might end up the one unable to get around but it won't be because I haven't tried to maintain fitness and mobility and there's a difference between that and simply not caring about my health.
> A little overweight is fine. I understand everyone doesn't maintain weight as easily as I do and that I seem to have a high energy level. I also enjoy working out...well, I enjoy the end of a workout. She has a good work ethic as far as her job, I don't understand that ethic not transferring to other important areas of life. To me there is no more basic piece to life than physical health, it is the most valuable thing in the material world. If I she can be motivated to work long hours and get things done there why not in the area of her own health?
> 
> Like I said, thanks for the insights. I'll continue to try and keep my mouth shut on the weight, but it's hard sometimes.



So to sum up, she feels judged by you because she is being judged by you. It's very hard to explain why health can end up low on the totem pole for some people. If you haven't ever had to think about EVERY SINGLE THING you eat all day you have NO idea how draining that can be.

Believe it or not, my problem is that I don't eat enough. My metabolism is very low because I don't jump start it with food. I really dislike eating most of the time. If I had my way, I'd eat dinner and nothing else. So to plan out breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner, snack every single day is a massive chore for me and very time consuming. I do it because like you said, I want to be there for my kids but also because I really hate being fat. LOL But sometimes, like when I was in nursing school for example, I just don't have the time or energy to do that. If your wife has a job that takes up a lot of her time and energy, there might not be a lot leftover for meal planning and exercising. 

Also, you said she does a lot of fad diets. Fad diets are great in that they allow you to lose a lot of weight really fast. The problem is that they don't have any lasting effects. If you want to lose weight effectively, you need to know it's a very slow process and that you are going to go long periods of time without any positive feedback for your efforts coming from that ****ing scale. I've lost 36lbs over the last 16 months. I can go a whole month with the scale not budging. But, I keep going because although it's very slow, it is happening. It really helps me when someone who hasn't seen me in a while comments on how much better I look. But even that doesn't happen very often. Because I'm losing so slowly I don't get that positive feedback from the scale or from other people very often and for some people they just can't continue with all the hard work without the positive feedback. I also keep telling myself that losing so slowly helps me to not have to deal with saggy skin LOL 

I'm halfway to my goal. I'm hoping in another 2 years I'll be all the way to my goal. That's VERY slow progress. But it's a much more realistic outlook on it than a fad diet and I will have much better odds at keeping it off. 

I hope that gives a little more insight into why it's so difficult for some people to lose weight. Lots of hard work combined with very little positive feedback makes a person feel defeated. And nobody likes to feel defeated. She puts all that energy into her job because she probably gets lots of positive feedback in many different ways and it makes her feel good. Stepping on the scale week after week and seeing no progress just makes you feel like ****.


----------



## lifeistooshort

When talking about money attracting women its important to distinguish what's meant by "attract".

A guy cam get a certain type of woman to essentially put up with him for money, but money doesn't create real physical attraction compatibility. So said woman might put up with you having sex with her but she won't necessarily be into it....at that point it's a business transaction.

She'll still be looking at men she actually is attracted to.

Of course attraction itself is complicated and can involve many things including basic chemistry. Speaking for myself, I require a guy who takes fitness and health seriously. But that doesn't mean his body must be perfect.....only that he be into health and fitness enough for our lifestyles to be compatible.

After 2 divorces I've come to realize that love grows out of compatibility, and a guy with a dad bod likely doesn't have a lifestyle that's compatible with mine, or he wouldn't have a dad bod.


----------



## Ursula

Honestly, it would depend on the woman who's doing the looking. Different women like different things on men, and vice versa for the men who are looking at women. Personally, I don't like either the Dad-bod or fit and cut. I like someone who's healthy, treats his body with respect and is at a healthy weight. This is how I live my life and I want to be with someone who has a similar lifestyle.


----------



## EllisRedding

Faithful Wife said:


> Having been around normal but HD women all my life, they want a hot dude, not a rich dude.
> 
> Hot first, rich is just secondary fluff. Possibly because I’m friends with women who don’t need a man to support them. Without hot, then it is faked lust. Every woman I’ve known who went after the glitz was faking the lust, by her own admission.
> 
> You can’t fake the feeling of lust. You can fake the expression of it though.


Maybe the question as well, for those rich fat guys being brought up, are women actually attracted to them, or are they just attracted to their money. I think that is an important differentiation, and I would think that a female would respond differently (sex or otherwise) to someone they were actually attracted to and not just attracted to their bank account.


----------



## Blondilocks

"Seems that men simply have more women they consider attractive around in the world and so they have more visually sexy things to look at than we do."
@Faithful Wife, I'm surprised you haven't been drawn and quartered, yet.>


----------



## Andy1001

In Absentia said:


> My insight would be: never call your wife "fat".


Never call your wife fat. 
Telling her she’s not tall enough for her weight is more diplomatic. :grin2:


----------



## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having been around normal but HD women all my life, they want a hot dude, not a rich dude.
> 
> Hot first, rich is just secondary fluff. Possibly because I’m friends with women who don’t need a man to support them. Without hot, then it is faked lust. Every woman I’ve known who went after the glitz was faking the lust, by her own admission.
> 
> You can’t fake the feeling of lust. You can fake the expression of it though.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the question as well, for those rich fat guys being brought up, are women actually attracted to them, or are they just attracted to their money. I think that is an important differentiation, and I would think that a female would respond differently (sex or otherwise) to someone they were actually attracted to and not just attracted to their bank account.
Click to expand...

Is this a real question? Like, did you ever think a hot woman with an ugly rich dude was actually attracted to him? 

Do men really think this?

I just always figured that guys like that don’t care if she’s actually attracted to him or not, they only care that she is attractive TO him.

It never occurred to me before reading around TAM that some men are actually thinking there is physical attraction in these cases. They somehow think that women feeling attraction has very little to do with the physical and it’s all about cars and money and somehow this equals the same kind of attraction as physical attraction.

I’m really shocked by this. It’s just so weird to me that men could think this. I guess with men telling each other the same thing all the time they begin to actually believe it.

For the record, it’s very easy for a woman to fake lust and attraction for a guy. You won’t be able to see she doesn’t have a lady boner for you, you’ll just see her acting like she does, and you won’t know the difference.


----------



## uhtred

If desire was based on DNA, men would desire women with wide hips for easier child birth, and substantial extra body fat to help survive lean times and enough toughness to defend the children while the man was out hunting / gathering. Think "Russian tractor lady". 

DNA / evolution does not necessarily favor leader / alpha types. In some primitive societies the "leader" is more exposed to risk. Its a better evolutionary bet to have a child with a man who is in a lower risk situation so that he will be around to help provide for that child

Human behavior is not driven by DNA. Humans spend most of their time doing things that are not evolutionarily favored (like engaging in oral sex). 


In the modern world I think people should think in terms of *compatibility*. I want a partner who works for *me*, I don't care at all whether or not she is ideal for other men. Some hot actress may be pleasant to look at, but that doesn't mean she is interesting for spending time together, AND in no way implies that she is particularly fun in bed. 





TheDudeLebowski said:


> It's in our DNA. Women for thousands upon thousands of years chose men worthy based on their ability to provide. Men chose women based on their looks, with the caveat of what he has the best chance of getting based on what he can provide.
> 
> Some broke ugly guy like me isn't going to uptown Dallas to find a woman. There's rich dudes there. However, There's lots of hot chicks from Royce City I can bag.
> 
> "Out of your league" is a very real thing that has nothing to do with personality.


----------



## In Absentia

Andy1001 said:


> Never call your wife fat.
> Telling her she’s not tall enough for her weight is more diplomatic. :grin2:


Never tell her anything... :laugh:


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## Blondilocks

I must be one of the few people on the planet who does not find 6 pack abs or extreme muscle definition attractive. My reaction to some of these guys is - put on a shirt for God's sake.


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## 269370

Blondilocks said:


> I must be one of the few people on the planet who does not find 6 pack abs or extreme muscle definition attractive. My reaction to some of these guys is - put on a shirt for God's sake.



You are not. Majority of women are drawn to personality qualities first, physical attributes second (yes, also for sex). My wife doesn’t like eye-candy types for example with any physical attributes that look unnatural. She seems to prefer charismatic men. 
Shame I am so pretty....


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## Faithful Wife

Blondilocks said:


> I must be one of the few people on the planet who does not find 6 pack abs or extreme muscle definition attractive. My reaction to some of these guys is - put on a shirt for God's sake.


Actually women usually say the same. We aren’t into shredded and ripped and extreme. 

But saying this does not mean we are into Homer Simpson type bods either. 

The only women I’ve ever known who were into ripped and shredded were body builders themselves.


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## EllisRedding

Faithful Wife said:


> Is this a real question? Like, did you ever think a hot woman with an ugly rich dude was actually attracted to him?
> 
> Do men really think this?
> 
> I just always figured that guys like that don’t care if she’s actually attracted to him or not, they only care that she is attractive TO him.
> 
> It never occurred to me before reading around TAM that some men are actually thinking there is physical attraction in these cases. They somehow think that women feeling attraction has very little to do with the physical and it’s all about cars and money and somehow this equals the same kind of attraction as physical attraction.
> 
> I’m really shocked by this. It’s just so weird to me that men could think this. I guess with men telling each other the same thing all the time they begin to actually believe it.
> 
> For the record, it’s very easy for a woman to fake lust and attraction for a guy. You won’t be able to see she doesn’t have a lady boner for you, you’ll just see her acting like she does, and you won’t know the difference.


Not really a question, more rhetorical (wasn't even really directed at you, just grabbed your post). Some have posted here about fat guys with money getting women, which at least for me with this thread is not really the point since I don't see that having anything to do with actually being attracted to the guy. After all, with the Dad Bod vs Tone Guy, people can come up with all the reasons why Dad Bod is the way to go, but none of those reasons have anything to do with actually being attracted to the person.

So I do agree with your post above, and do also believe that some guys misconstrue what attraction really is


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## 269370

I think it's possible to be attracted to status too, not just money/lifestyle. Difficult to generalize. In general though (ha), I believe there's always someone, for everyone...And I don't believe there's only one perfect person for someone...


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## CatholicDad

It's hilarious if anyone would buy it that the dad bod is more attractive... Yeah, sure millions of overweight slobs are glad to live in this fantasy versus taking action. Self control and self discipline takes work.

Kind of reminds me of ladies who think a hair bun or short hair is more attractive. Yeah, right!

I'll make another anti-porn plug here. Guys that don't take care of themselves must be no-drive, or porn fed because no MAN I know would willingly let himself go! Hot sex is just too prescious. I mean, I'd never choose donuts, ice cream, etc... over it. I work hard to be strong and fit for no other reason than to woo my wife, and then "perform" for her. Let's face it, the stronger and more fit you are, the better the sex is. Women don't have to be strong and fit necessarily, but men do, IMO. If you're weak, you can't scoop her up and carry her to bed, or even support your weight when on top of her. Also, little buddy will be strong, if you are .

Nothing disgusts me more than men who's senses are filled by porn, donuts, and laziness! This whole dad bod talk makes think of men like that!


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## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this a real question? Like, did you ever think a hot woman with an ugly rich dude was actually attracted to him?
> 
> Do men really think this?
> 
> I just always figured that guys like that don’t care if she’s actually attracted to him or not, they only care that she is attractive TO him.
> 
> It never occurred to me before reading around TAM that some men are actually thinking there is physical attraction in these cases. They somehow think that women feeling attraction has very little to do with the physical and it’s all about cars and money and somehow this equals the same kind of attraction as physical attraction.
> 
> I’m really shocked by this. It’s just so weird to me that men could think this. I guess with men telling each other the same thing all the time they begin to actually believe it.
> 
> For the record, it’s very easy for a woman to fake lust and attraction for a guy. You won’t be able to see she doesn’t have a lady boner for you, you’ll just see her acting like she does, and you won’t know the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really a question, more rhetorical (wasn't even really directed at you, just grabbed your post). Some have posted here about fat guys with money getting women, which at least for me with this thread is not really the point since I don't see that having anything to do with actually being attracted to the guy. After all, with the Dad Bod vs Tone Guy, people can come up with all the reasons why Dad Bod is the way to go, but none of those reasons have anything to do with actually being attracted to the person.
> 
> So I do agree with your post above, and do also believe that some guys misconstrue what attraction really is
Click to expand...

Yes, some men seem to think fake lust for a man with money and no hotness is the same as actual lust. 

Some must figure hey if he’s getting poon why does he care if she is actually attracted to him?

It’s the ones who actually think women don’t feel physical attraction based on looks that confuse me. They think we are only attracted to security or some nonsense like that. Like somehow what our eyes tell us about what a man looks like is irrelevant. 

Why. Just why you guys? Stop doing this. It’s dumb. Get clued in, we heart fit bodies.

Not directed at anyone in particular.


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## Tiggy!

Faithful Wife said:


> Actually women usually say the same. We aren’t into shredded and ripped and extreme.
> 
> But saying this does not mean we are into Homer Simpson type bods either.
> 
> The only women I’ve ever known who were into ripped and shredded were body builders themselves.


:iagree:

There's a difference between a nice, fit, toned body (doesn't need 6 pack IMO) a a bulky ripped body.
I get there are women who's into bulky muscles or really shredded look, but it does nothing for me.


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## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> Actually women usually say the same. We aren’t into shredded and ripped and extreme.
> 
> But saying this does not mean we are into Homer Simpson type bods either.
> 
> The only women I’ve ever known who were into ripped and shredded were body builders themselves.




Yes, that is true, although it is toned (as opposed to ripped) v dad bod. I think this is bit short sighted in that I believe (coming from a man’s perspective), that the bod is just one factor. Facial looks (eyes), demeanor, etc all play a role. Would this be a fair assessment, that is to assume, just one single factor is not enough. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Spicy

I greatly prefer toned and in good shape. H has an amazing upper body, and a bit of a tummy. So maybe he falls in between? But for late 40s I find him massively attractive. Outside of the physical attraction, the attraction to him as a person is the most powerful force for us. 

That said, I’m all for the @ConanHub look! Excellent selling point lol >


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## ConanHub

Spicy said:


> I greatly prefer toned and in good shape. H has an amazing upper body, and a bit of a tummy. So maybe he falls in between? But for late 40s I find him massively attractive. Outside of the physical attraction, the attraction to him as a person is the most powerful force for us.
> 
> That said, I’m all for the @ConanHub look! Excellent selling point lol >


Grinnnn!!:grin2:

Thank you!


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## Faithful Wife

Spicy said:


> I greatly prefer toned and in good shape. H has an amazing upper body, and a bit of a tummy. So maybe he falls in between? But for late 40s I find him massively attractive. Outside of the physical attraction, the attraction to him as a person is the most powerful force for us.
> 
> That said, I’m all for the @ConanHub look! Excellent selling point lol >


Conan has a great bod, and is a very cute guy. 

I would call him "buff" or "a big dude". I would not say ripped or shredded because that's a different look and he is not that. Though if he and I were workout buddies I would say encouraging things like ripped and shredded, but those are just words.

When they are literally ripped and shredded it is not yummy to me and most women.

Yet me and most women would call Conan lookalikes yummy, I believe.

Other shapes of yummy are around too, but none of them have a gut.


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## SunWhiskey

Faithful Wife said:


> If you’ve never been at the peak of your physical potential, you don’t know how women would react to that. Men who are there know how women react to it.
> 
> Women also react to an awesome personality, why wouldn’t we?
> 
> Don’t mistake this for our also not appreciating the physical.


She usually sees you before she talks to you. If she doesn't at least somewhat like what she sees, you are less likely get past that road block to demonstrate your amazing personality.


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## 269370

I dunno what kind of dads you guys hang around, but most of the dads I know in my kids' school are actually alright looking (by my heterosexual standards). Maybe US standards are different? There is a lot in-between, between obese and weight-lifting world champions. There are some that are 'ripped' (much more than Conan, from what I can tell, since we are all spying on his pictures...) and I feel a bit weird around some of them and don't know how to behave. I feel when someone is so ridiculously ripped, it invites comments or some kind of questions when it's 'in your face' like that. But then I am socially awkward and probably would also say something inappropriate if I had to chat to someone with a funny disability.


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## lifeistooshort

As far as the bulky guys are concerned, it's not so much that it's unattractive as it is the idea that they're obsessed with their looks. 

No woman wants a guy who spends more time looking in the mirror then she does. We want our guy focused on our looks, not his own.

Beyond reasonable upkeep of course.


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## EllisRedding

lifeistooshort said:


> As far as the bulky guys are concerned, it's not so much that it's unattractive as it is the idea that they're obsessed with their looks.
> 
> No woman wants a guy who spends more time looking in the mirror then she does. We want our guy focused on our looks, not his own.
> 
> Beyond reasonable upkeep of course.


Curious, where exactly does this idea come from that "bulky" guys spend all their time looking in the mirror?


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## ReformedHubby

Regarding body types I don't think you really need to have a six pack. I have had one at times and it really doesn't make much of a difference when your clothes are on. At my age now I go back and forth between a flat stomach when I am out of shape, and a four pack when in decent shape, depends on the season and if I feel like cutting back on the booze. My metabolism is too high for me to gain significant weight. With that said I don't think I will ever put in the dietary changes necessary to get back to six pack land. Its just not worth it. Eating is a lot more boring when you do that. I agree that too shredded is bad. Any of you seen 8 or 10 pack abs? I would never want that. We all need some fat on us.


Generally speaking I think if you have a solid upper body build with broad shoulders and decent size arms, with nothing hanging over your belt, you are good to go, height helps too. I do consider myself lucky because that's just how God built the men in my family. Luckily, I think for the most part women don't necessarily judge us as harshly on our appearance as we judge them. I guess I feel like once you're past a certain threshold for a person's looks requirement, its more about your personality at that point. Unless of course you're dreamy like @ConanHub. Everybody wants him. I wish I was him. Marcia, Marcia, Marcia.....kidding...but you are indeed a good looking man sir!


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## 269370

EllisRedding said:


> Curious, where exactly does this idea come from that "bulky" guys spend all their time looking in the mirror?



Probably form this show







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## ReformedHubby

EllisRedding said:


> Curious, where exactly does this idea come from that "bulky" guys spend all their time looking in the mirror?


I actually agree with this. Not replying to anyone in particular, but I think the pendulum has swung. There used to be a lot of fat shaming. Heck, when I was a kid there really only a few fat kids in school. So yeah..they did get made fun of. But now...fat is kind of the new normal...depending on where you live. In my hometown in the deep south, skinny or normal size is rare. I guess I feel like its the fit people that are judged now more so than the fat ones.


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## 269370

ReformedHubby said:


> I actually agree with this. Not replying to anyone in particular, but I think the pendulum has swung. There used to be a lot of fat shaming. Heck, when I was a kid there really only a few fat kids in school. So yeah..they did get made fun of. But now...fat is kind of the new normal...depending on where you live. In my hometown in the deep south, skinny or normal size is rare. I guess I feel like its the fit people that are judged now more so than the fat ones.



Nah...over here in Europe we still laugh about fatties.
Judging a fit person seems laughable. I think ‘extreme bodybuilding’ is a different thing...It’s a choice anyway some ‘bigger’ people probably don’t have a choice, others, can actually do something about it.


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## Married but Happy

I'd rather be fit than fat, but I'm a little overweight. I'll have more time and energy to work on that once I retire in a week, and it is important for more than attracting women. I also want to do extensive travel and hiking in mountainous areas, and can't do that if I'm out of shape. I can still attract women who know me - or get to know me. However, I expect that will improve too with a little weight loss and toning.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

EllisRedding said:


> Curious, where exactly does this idea come from that "bulky" guys spend all their time looking in the mirror?


Good question!

The typical answer will be forthcoming; a man concerned enough about his body that he goes to the gym regularly and likes nice clothes, OBVIOUSLY must spend too much looking at himself in the mirror. 

I'm being facetious, obviously, but that's the usual answer. Maybe not here, we'll see.

I can say, that's not typical in reality. 

If a person is too self centered, it shows in many other ways.

A well groomed man doesn't mean he's self centered.


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## ReformedHubby

InMyPrime said:


> Nah...over here in Europe we still laugh about fatties.
> Judging a fit person seems laughable. I think ‘extreme bodybuilding’ is a different thing...It’s a choice anyway some ‘bigger’ people probably don’t have a choice, others, can actually do something about it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You guys are less fat than we are. I don't know the obesity rates, but it wouldn't shock me to find America number one.


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## 269370

ReformedHubby said:


> You guys are less fat than we are. I don't know the obesity rates, but it wouldn't shock me to find America number one.



Yeah....though we are not that far behind.












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## 269370

Anyway, I don’t want to be too mean about the ‘gym rats’. It’s obviously due to my inferiority complexes if you haven’t guessed yet! 
I will never get huge arms, no matter how much I work out, I’m just not built that way.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with whatever people want to do to their bodies, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone.


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## Cletus

southbound said:


> .. is his wife really going to say, “No, I’m more attracted to you with more fat?”


That is basically a quote from my wife. She means it both aesthetically and operationally. Having a bit more of me to rub against during sex it turns out is very useful.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

I can say, and I see a thousand people a day, that in my guestimation 70% are over weight and too fluffy, 40%of those are really heavy; 10% obese, 10% "thick", 10% slim.


----------



## Married but Happy

InMyPrime said:


> I don’t think there’s anything wrong with whatever people want to do to their bodies, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone.


I agree, but unfortunately it does harm me financially, as everyone's health insurance rates are higher to cover the extra costs created by illnesses and conditions caused by obesity. Other costs are higher too, due to lost work days, lost productivity, and poor use of resources.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Married but Happy said:


> I agree, but unfortunately it does harm me financially, as everyone's health insurance rates are higher to cover the extra costs created by illnesses and conditions caused by obesity. Other costs are higher too, due to lost work days, lost productivity, and poor use of resources.


I fully agree in concept but that general answer is usually a non starter because it will never change, it's more like a constant in an equation. 

Sad but true. I chalk it up to reality and nothing I can do about it.

But, add "well the Gov't has to cover certain trans-gender operations, third type (or five types, who knows) of restrooms in all public buildings, because of "accommodations for non gender identifiers" etc and on and on, and my dander goes up.

I'm just using that as an example, not picking on any group, but forever growing Gov't costs where unneeded is the biggest enemy.


----------



## 269370

Married but Happy said:


> I agree, but unfortunately it does harm me financially, as everyone's health insurance rates are higher to cover the extra costs created by illnesses and conditions caused by obesity. Other costs are higher too, due to lost work days, lost productivity, and poor use of resources.



Ah ok. I haven’t thought about it that way...What about gym rats? In theory, they could also be working more instead of spending hours in gym...


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----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Andy1001 said:


> As for size not mattering,how come the sale of three inch dildoes is so low.😈


They don't know how to work that 3 incher like I do. :smile2::grin2::crying:


----------



## Married but Happy

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I fully agree in concept but that general answer is usually a non starter because it will never change, it's more like a constant in an equation.
> 
> Sad but true. I chalk it up to reality and nothing I can do about it.
> 
> But, add "well the Gov't has to cover certain trans-gender operations, third type (or five types, who knows) of restrooms in all public buildings, because of "accommodations for non gender identifiers" etc and on and on, and my dander goes up.
> 
> I'm just using that as an example, not picking on any group, but forever growing Gov't costs where unneeded is the biggest enemy.


We should just do what they do in much of Europe: gender neutral bathrooms, with fully enclosed stalls (with a few with sinks, etc.) and shared washbasin area for the rest. So much simpler and efficient.

And you're right that things won't change, but I think there could be a risk premium charged to people who don't take care of themselves (some modest extra cost that won't preclude them affording insurance, or perhaps less of a subsidy for some people - don't know how it would actually work). Some places already tax some unhealthy foods, and cigarettes are highly taxed to promote smoking cessation programs. More can be done along those lines, IMO, and I would have no problem with it.

I don't see fees or taxes as infringing anyone's rights - we have those now, and already choose our pleasures and vices based on what we can afford and are willing to risk.


----------



## SunWhiskey

InMyPrime said:


> Anyway, I don’t want to be too mean about the ‘gym rats’. It’s obviously due to my inferiority complexes if you haven’t guessed yet!
> I will never get huge arms, no matter how much I work out, I’m just not built that way.
> 
> I don’t think there’s anything wrong with whatever people want to do to their bodies, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't sell yourself short, unless you don't actually have arms. Takes a consistent attitude to get there.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

SunWhiskey said:


> Don't sell yourself short, unless you don't actually have arms. Takes a consistent attitude to get there.


And a few thousand dollars worth of protein powder, pre workout, and post workout drinks. 

I know a guy who put sprinkles of borax in his water. Something about "levels" he was trying to explain to me. 

I'm fit enough. I'm not muscular, but I don't know what percentage of the population can do a 22 mile day with 12k ft elevation loss/gain with a 35 pound pack on their back at high altitude. I'm sure most people can work up to that point though. But I'm not sure muscle mass is advantageous to endurance type things. The only reason I say that is long distance runners and the likes are not muscular. I don't want to be a twig either. I'm comfortable with my build.


----------



## 269370

SunWhiskey said:


> Don't sell yourself short, unless you don't actually have arms. Takes a consistent attitude to get there.



I have arms. I just can’t bulk up, no matter how much I eat I have always weighed 10kg under my height pretty much all my life. I don’t want huge arms, just bit bigger than they are. Also bigger shoulders maybe. Though I have a bit of a swimmer’s back so shoulders dont look as bad as the arms...


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## ReformedHubby

TheDudeLebowski said:


> And a few thousand dollars worth of protein powder, pre workout, and post workout drinks.
> 
> I know a guy who put sprinkles of borax in his water. Something about "levels" he was trying to explain to me.
> 
> I'm fit enough. I'm not muscular, but I don't know what percentage of the population can do a 22 mile day with 12k ft elevation loss/gain with a 35 pound pack on their back at high altitude. I'm sure most people can work up to that point though. But I'm not sure muscle mass is advantageous to endurance type things. The only reason I say that is long distance runners and the likes are not muscular. I don't want to be a twig either. I'm comfortable with my build.


I think the supplement industry is the worst. Placebo if you ask me. I was one of those guys when in my 20s with a pantry full of stuff from GNC. Where I live doctor's are handing out hormone replacement treatments with testosterone shots to men left and right. You can even order scotch or bourbon while you wait for the nurse. Not the massive bodybuilding amounts, just enough to make you feel a bit younger and boost your mood. I can generally tell the guys that are doing it. They are older, but their muscles haven't atrophied at all.


----------



## Blondilocks

Married but Happy said:


> I agree, but unfortunately it does harm me financially, as everyone's health insurance rates are higher to cover the extra costs created by illnesses and conditions caused by obesity. Other costs are higher too, due to lost work days, lost productivity, and poor use of resources.


It all works out in the wash. There are just as many chronic illnesses that are not caused by lifestyle as there are.

I worked with a guy who had his first son diagnosed with congenital heart defect at birth and was told that all other children born would have the same. Well, since the guy was Mormon he decided to go for the gold. Three sons later and all with the same defect - let me tell you, the medical costs were staggering. Multiple surgeries for each child. Mother nature took over and his wife had to have a hysterectomy or else they would have gone for the magical number of 7.


----------



## SunWhiskey

TheDudeLebowski said:


> And a few thousand dollars worth of protein powder, pre workout, and post workout drinks.
> 
> I know a guy who put sprinkles of borax in his water. Something about "levels" he was trying to explain to me.
> 
> I'm fit enough. I'm not muscular, but I don't know what percentage of the population can do a 22 mile day with 12k ft elevation loss/gain with a 35 pound pack on their back at high altitude. I'm sure most people can work up to that point though. But I'm not sure muscle mass is advantageous to endurance type things. The only reason I say that is long distance runners and the likes are not muscular. I don't want to be a twig either. I'm comfortable with my build.


I lift. I have some decent muscle. Enough that people will mention it in regular conversation when I was still a lower body fat. I actually "looked like I worked out." I've gained some fat over the muscle as I mentioned that I'm losing now to get back into what I consider my dating shape. 

More muscle requires more fuel for those events, but at a point you are just dragging along extra weight that you have to fuel. Too much mass definitely slows down the faster distance guys, but to be fair it takes quite a bit of bulk to slow them down. It's just difficult to build that muscle if you are on a regular distance running program burning fat and muscle. Have to train for what you want to do. Right?

A very small percentage can do that kind of a day. I consider myself in shape even now with the fat, but it's been years since I was a regular runner. I did a 9 mile morning the other day with a 1500 foot elevation change (4.5 in and 4.5 out) with just a larger camelback, and it kicked my ass. Sometimes I feel froggy and do a 2 mile run here and there that I handle pretty well. 

Fun thing about endurance, I know that I can run 2 miles a day for a week, step it up to 3 miles a day the next week, and 4 miles daily the week after that. On the 4th week start throwing in some sprints in the 4 mile. After about 2 months of that, I can nearly sprint 4 miles up and down hills. It's truly amazing how fast you can build back up cardio and endurance if you've done it before. I signed up for a marathon once after not doing any cardio for about a year. Only had 3 months to train, but come time I did fine. I wasn't at the front of the pack, but I was in the second wave of people. I generally don't train cardio much as I have more fun getting stronger and bigger.


----------



## SunWhiskey

InMyPrime said:


> I have arms. I just can’t bulk up, no matter how much I eat I have always weighed 10kg under my height pretty much all my life. I don’t want huge arms, just bit bigger than they are. Also bigger shoulders maybe. Though I have a bit of a swimmer’s back so shoulders dont look as bad as the arms...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I used to be skinny and couldn't put on weight either.

Lift heavy, lift consistently, and push yourself. Maybe get a friend or a personal trainer for some motivation. Most people underestimate what it is to truly push themselves. The mental block is always the biggest hurdle. 

Figure out how much you eat now. Keep track of it for a couple weeks. Average out your daily calories. Then add 300 calories a day. Eat good food, lots of protein, and focus on your training. Still not gaining, add 200 more calories. You probably aren't currently eating as much as you think you are. My fitness pal is a decent tool. Be sure to measure your portions and weigh your food. After a couple months, you will learn to pretty much eyeball stuff and know about how many calories you are taking in.


I won't get into workout programs, but find something with a proven success rate and stick with it for a solid year. If you are new, can't go wrong with full body routines. I like Greyskull as it throws in the occassional AMRAP set and mixes in some other stuff as need.

Protein doesn't have to be expensive. Milk is cheap and damn near perfect for putting on some mass and increasing your calories. So are eggs. How much cheaper can you get?


----------



## uhtred

Just for fun:
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls027404680/

Some are muscular, some not.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Blondilocks said:


> It all works out in the wash. There are just as many chronic illnesses that are not caused by lifestyle as there are.
> 
> I worked with a guy who had his first son diagnosed with congenital heart defect at birth and was told that all other children born would have the same. Well, since the guy was Mormon he decided to go for the gold. Three sons later and all with the same defect - let me tell you, the medical costs were staggering. Multiple surgeries for each child. Mother nature took over and his wife had to have a hysterectomy or else they would have gone for the magical number of 7.



I know a Mormon couple..the husband is the brother of someone I went to high school with.

They have 9 kids and 7 have cystic fibrosis.....they knew after the first diagnosis there was a high likelihood it would keep happening. But more kids mattered more.

Of course the wife doesn't work and they never kept insurance because they couldn't afford it.

Then the husband was diagnosed with brain cancer.....poor prognosis. Of course their hands are out because they have no idea how they're going to support everyone.

I figure the church should do it since they're the ones pushing for lots of kids.


----------



## Ikaika

uhtred said:


> Just for fun:
> 
> https://www.imdb.com/list/ls027404680/
> 
> 
> 
> Some are muscular, some not.




I look at prince Harry and can’t but help to think about his doppelgänger - Philadelphia Eagles QB, Carson Wentz











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## TheDudeLebowski

Ikaika said:


> I look at prince Harry and can’t but help to think about his doppelgänger - Philadelphia Eagles QB, Carson Wentz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Holy crap! That is wild!


----------



## In Absentia

uhtred said:


> Just for fun:
> https://www.imdb.com/list/ls027404680/
> 
> Some are muscular, some not.


Prince Harry? :surprise:


----------



## CraigBesuden

Faithful Wife said:


> I have this weird feeling and I don’t know if it’s true. It seems true but I would like other’s input.
> 
> I feel like it annoys men to hear that women like a fit body. I feel like it annoys them to hear we don’t like to see a gut and it turns us off.
> 
> Not all men. Some are very clear that women appreciate a fit body.
> 
> But some men seem to get insulted by this.
> 
> Maybe I’m not reading correctly and I don’t mean anyone on this thread. It just comes out sometimes in these discussions. Where if women state preferences for fitness men get weird about it.
> 
> And then the 10% thing gets thrown around. And they feel angry they can’t reach the 10% because of some kind of fated genetic thing.
> 
> Yet...nothing is stopping any man from getting more fit. And if the base population of men were between moderate and very fit, then the 10% would become 50%.
> 
> Since it is within men’s control to up their fitness and they have every reason to understand that this will be sexually advantageous to them, then I can’t really work out why instead they would complain that women are shallow or whatever.
> 
> Like bottom line...is it not just obvious and reasonable that a fit man is attractive to women? Why is this something we have to kind of advocate for? Why is it not just what men understand they have to do to be attractive?
> 
> I also feel like the myth that men are visual and women are not plays into this. Of course some men want to believe this, it lets them off the hook to be fit. But then women see a guy who looks like Conan and go bat chit. How can that be explained if the visual didn’t turn us on?
> 
> Seems that men simply have more women they consider attractive around in the world and so they have more visually sexy things to look at than we do.


I appreciate women telling the truth. It’s entirely within a man’s power to have the look that women like.

When I was a high school boy, my mother and other older women would tell me that women are attracted to nice guys. “Just wait until you get older.”

Of course, “older” meant college age. Women would be looking for husband/father traits at that time.

Today, with the marriage age around 30, young men need to know that it’s mostly about looks. A woman isn’t going to select you because you’d be a good father to the children she will have 15 years from now.

I’m working out at the gym 2-3 hours a day. I’ve added muscle, broadened my shoulders, and dropped 25 pounds so far this year. I hope to have a body like DJ Pauly D by November.

My wife has said, “good job.” But she’s also said, “Don’t act like Jake.” That would be our next door neighbor who keeps in good shape. He cheated on his first wife with his second wife, then cheated on her his current wife. His oldest son says it’s been 5.5 years so dad should be tiring of her soon.

I’m trying to convince my 16 yo nephew to change what he’s eating, add muscle and broaden his shoulders. He says he doesn’t like to lift weights. (Who does?) He wants a girlfriend but doesn’t want to put in the work.

Boys need to be told the truth. A girl won’t care about your personality until she first finds you physically attractive. Learn how to work a room, master small talk, don’t be timid, have unique and interesting opinions, dress the way the girls want, stylish hair cut, and a fit body.


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## Faithful Wife

CraigBesuden said:


> Boys need to be told the truth. A girl won’t care about your personality until she first finds you physically attractive. Learn how to work a room, master small talk, don’t be timid, have unique and interesting opinions, dress the way the girls want, stylish hair cut, and a fit body.


Girls sure understand this truth. I think boys should, too.

And for anyone telling young men that their looks won't matter to girls and all they have to do is get a high paying career, they are not doing those boys any favors. These days the women will already have a career better than his anyway. She doesn't want him for his job, she wants him for his bod.


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## In Absentia

CraigBesuden said:


> A girl won’t care about your personality until she first finds you physically attractive.


Or finds out you have a big wallet or a big d!ck... :laugh:


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## Faithful Wife

In Absentia said:


> CraigBesuden said:
> 
> 
> 
> A girl won’t care about your personality until she first finds you physically attractive.
> 
> 
> 
> Or finds out you have a big wallet or a big d!ck... <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" ></a>
Click to expand...

You must not have gotten the point?

We won’t want to even see your wallet or your **** if we aren’t attracted to you to begin with.


----------



## personofinterest

Faithful Wife said:


> In Absentia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CraigBesuden said:
> 
> 
> 
> A girl won’t care about your personality until she first finds you physically attractive.
> 
> 
> 
> Or finds out you have a big wallet or a big d!ck...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You must not have gotten the point?
> 
> We won’t want to even see your wallet or your **** if we aren’t attracted to you to begin with.
Click to expand...

 Now now… you know the ways of the red pill state that it has to be something besides you. It's always the fault of the woman for wanting your money or wanting a chad or something. Otherwise how can we blame an entire gender for our patheticness?


----------



## 269370

In Absentia said:


> Or finds out you have a big wallet or a big d!ck... :laugh:



What if there’s no space for wallet because it’s all taken up by the thickness of your ****?


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----------



## In Absentia

InMyPrime said:


> What if there’s no space for wallet because it’s all taken up by the thickness of your ****?


That's a BIG possibility...

Now, I was replying in jest to a blanket statement... :laugh: Does it work the other way around too? For men?


----------



## In Absentia

personofinterest said:


> Now now… you know the ways of the red pill state that it has to be something besides you. It's always the fault of the woman for wanting your money or wanting a chad or something. Otherwise how can we blame an entire gender for our patheticness?


As I said in my other post above... does this work for men too?

_A boy won’t care about your personality until he first finds you physically attractive._

If we - men - say this, what would women think? Is it ok for a woman to say it, but not a man?


----------



## Taxman

I have been on a journey. It has taken now the better part of a decade and a half. I had the worst "dad bod". I was morbidly obese for most of my life. Top weight? I tipped at around 330lbs. I came from overweight people. My wife was overweight. I was content with it. Former football player and wrestler, big was normal. Then we tried having a child. We were told our weight was keeping us from conceiving. She joined Weight Watchers, I bought looser underwear. She lost weight, and got pregnant. Me, I liked my pizza. Ok the size 48 jeans were not that good looking, but.... Then, I had a heart attack. Didn't gain one ounce...of reason. Kept eating, kept doing other dumb stuff. Five years later, I got the "widow maker". Hit me at my desk, on a Sunday morning, working, when the rest of the world was in bed on a Sunday. I was already scarfing a 'breakfast burrito" and was halfway down a pack of smokes. Paramedics refused to take me unless I put out the smoke. Yeah, not bright. They tried a catherization (angioplasty), I went south on the table. Coma has a way of smartening you up. I came out of the coma with no immune system. Ten years of working to get that back, plus, I could not really do anything physical, and my metabolism was fighting me all the way. I started losing at around the age of fifty three. Slowly. Oh, and I learned that I was a massive diabetic in the ER. Was probably carrying that around for five years. Didn't know or care. Well, over the 15 +/- years, I joined Weight Watchers, and a gym. It has come off. 135 lb weight loss, and still counting. Now, at 65, I am working out 3-5 times a week. I have enough loose skin to build another guy. However, things have tightened up, and I am thinking of the "superhero bod". I see the gains every time, and there is a hint of a six pack under the loose skin. PS, the wife is liking it, and the kids can no longer say dad is soft around the middle.


----------



## CraigBesuden

In Absentia said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now now… you know the ways of the red pill state that it has to be something besides you. It's always the fault of the woman for wanting your money or wanting a chad or something. Otherwise how can we blame an entire gender for our patheticness?
> 
> 
> 
> As I said in my other post above... does this work for men too?
> 
> _A boy won’t care about your personality until he first finds you physically attractive._
> 
> If we - men - say this, what would women think? Is it ok for a woman to say it, but not a man?
Click to expand...

I said it. The women simply agreed that it’s true. My focus is on telling the truth to my nephew to help him so he will take the steps to attract a girlfriend.

Of course it applies to women just as men. The problem is that girls are told that men are hyper visual so you need to look great to attract them. Boys are lied to and told that women don’t care about looks, just whether you are a nice guy with a good job who would make a good husband and father. Then they get angry and frustrated because they’ve “followed the rules” and during their early twenties either have to date unattractive women or be alone, as the women who should be in their league reject them. At some point those girls become receptive but the boys have been turned down so often they don’t even try. Then, when they’re around 28, the kind of women who rejected them in college suddenly start approaching them. They get angry at those women for suddenly showing interest and think they are gold diggers who spent their twenties having sex with bad boys until the nice guys got a couple promotions and stowed enough away in their 401ks that they’ll now pretend to find them attractive. Either that or they’ve finally realized that the bad boys won’t marry them, and now they are desperate to marry before 30 so they must settle for an unattractive man who they don’t love so they can have babies, get fat and stop having sex (or have it on the side with bad boys).


----------



## In Absentia

CraigBesuden said:


> I said it. The women simply agreed that it’s true. My focus is on telling the truth to my nephew to help him.
> 
> Of course it applies to women just as men. The problem is that girls are told that men are hyper visual so you need to look great. Boys are lied to and told that women don’t care about looks, just whether you are a nice guy with a good job who would make a good husband and father. Then they get angry and frustrated because they’ve “followed the rules” and during their early twenties either have to date unattractive women or be alone, as the women who should be in their league reject them. At some point those girls become receptive but the boys have been turned down so often they don’t even try. Then, around 28, the kind of women who rejected them in college start approaching them. They get angry at those women for suddenly showing interest and think they are gold diggers who spent their twenties having sex with bad boys until the nice guys got a couple promotions and stowed enough away in their 401ks that they’ll now pretend to find them attractive. Either that or they’ve finally realized that the bad boys won’t marry them, and now they are desperate to marry before 30 so they must settle for an unattractive man who they don’t love so they can have babies, get fat and stop having sex (or have it on the side with bad boys).



You have a very bleak vision of the human race... :laugh:


----------



## CraigBesuden

> You have a very bleak vision of the human race...


I don’t but there are a lot of frustrated single nice guys out there who have a bleak vision of women. They’re following a playbook from the 1950’s and don’t understand why it doesn’t work today.


----------



## personofinterest

I missed some of the replies because I blissfully have some people on ignore, but I'd say that I now understand why some wives don't want sex just like I can understand why some men might be skeptical of women.


----------



## Mr.Married

I swear either I'm going crazy or TAM is getting nuttier by the day.


----------



## personofinterest

Mr.Married said:


> I swear either I'm going crazy or TAM is getting nuttier by the day.


You aren't going crazy. And TAM isn't getting nuttier. The fringe who must blame female for all their neuroses is getting more vocal and desperate lol


----------



## Faithful Wife

In Absentia said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now now… you know the ways of the red pill state that it has to be something besides you. It's always the fault of the woman for wanting your money or wanting a chad or something. Otherwise how can we blame an entire gender for our patheticness?
> 
> 
> 
> As I said in my other post above... does this work for men too?
> 
> _A boy won’t care about your personality until he first finds you physically attractive._
> 
> If we - men - say this, what would women think? Is it ok for a woman to say it, but not a man?
Click to expand...

But men have always said this. Their top priority in seeking a woman is that she is attractive. Her attractiveness is the first thing he will go for and that’s what draws men to women. Not that he doesn’t care about the other good qualities but he won’t even know about those qualities if she isn’t attractive to him first. 

I think women have this pretty clearly understood. So what do we think when men say their first priority is an attractive woman? Some women probably wish that wasn’t true but all my life all the women I have known have fully understood that what we look like is the most important thing to a guy, long before he cares if you are a good person or not.

I do not understand why it would be any different for a man to hear that women will see his outsides first and decide if he is attractive to her or not long before she wants to know more about him.


----------



## personofinterest

I think this may be my new favorite go-to

http://ohsoang.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/wambulance.jpg


----------



## In Absentia

personofinterest said:


> The fringe who must blame female for all their neuroses is getting more vocal and desperate lol


If you are referring to me, I was JOKING... :x


----------



## In Absentia

Faithful Wife said:


> But men have always said this. Their top priority in seeking a woman is that she is attractive. Her attractiveness is the first thing he will go for and that’s what draws men to women. Not that he doesn’t care about the other good qualities but he won’t even know about those qualities if she isn’t attractive to him first.


I'm happy to state that I'm NOT one of those men...



Faithful Wife said:


> I do not understand why it would be any different for a man to hear that women will see his outsides first and decide if he is attractive to her or not long before she wants to know more about him.


I find it a bit of a blanket statement, as I said before. Like your first statement about men. I didn't grow up like this.


----------



## CraigBesuden

If I wasn’t clear, let me be clear:

Women aren’t doing anything wrong. It’s the men who have the problem. They need to understand what women want in a guy today and work on becoming that guy. Men blaming women for not being attracted to them is pointless.

I want my nephew to change his hairstyle and clothing, and to hit the gym and get in shape, and learn social skills. If he doesn’t and girls aren’t attracted to him as he is, then it’s on him. It’s not the girls’ responsibility to find him attractive; it’s his responsibility become attractive to the girls. If he wants to continue being overweight, out of shape, wearing oversized death metal t-shirts, not showering regularly, and playing Xbox One for hours without a job, that’s his right. It’s a free country. But he should blame himself, not the girls, if that results in him being alone or with someone he finds less attractive. The fact that he’s a wonderful human being really is beside the point. The girls will not, and should not, ignore everything else.


----------



## In Absentia

CraigBesuden said:


> If I wasn’t clear, let me be clear:
> 
> Women aren’t doing anything wrong. It’s the men who have the problem. They need to understand what women want in a guy today and work on becoming that guy.


I understand this... it's the whole bleak scenario you have described I have a problem with...


----------



## Faithful Wife

In Absentia said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> But men have always said this. Their top priority in seeking a woman is that she is attractive. Her attractiveness is the first thing he will go for and that’s what draws men to women. Not that he doesn’t care about the other good qualities but he won’t even know about those qualities if she isn’t attractive to him first.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm happy to state that I'm NOT one of those men...
> 
> 
> 
> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not understand why it would be any different for a man to hear that women will see his outsides first and decide if he is attractive to her or not long before she wants to know more about him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I find it a bit of a blanket statement, as I said before. Like your first statement about men. I didn't grow up like this.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. But you must see the many men on TAM saying that men prioritize looks over everything else, right? 

I do not dispute that you are not this way. But as far as I can tell from nearly every man I’ve ever encountered (including friends, family, acquaintances and lovers) looks matter first, personality matters second, everything else after that.

These same men will even post surveys which state this equivocally, that men always rank physical attraction at the top of their list when asked. 

It’s so much a truth to me that I would not bother to question it anymore. But that does not mean it is the truth for every man, as you are saying it is not true for you.


----------



## CraigBesuden

In Absentia said:


> CraigBesuden said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I wasn’t clear, let me be clear:
> 
> Women aren’t doing anything wrong. It’s the men who have the problem. They need to understand what women want in a guy today and work on becoming that guy.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand this... it's the whole bleak scenario you have described I have a problem with...
Click to expand...

Obviously, then, I was unclear. I do not agree with the red pill analysis. I’m just saying that it’s there. I don’t want my nephew going down that route.


----------



## In Absentia

Faithful Wife said:


> Fair enough. But you must see the many men on TAM saying that men prioritize looks over everything else, right?


Yes, I have. I just don't like blanket statements. But it must carry some truth. I have dated girls I wasn't incredibly attracted to, but had a very interesting personality and were very intelligent. There must be a little bit of attraction, obviously, but I wouldn't say that, for some men, is the top requirement.


----------



## almost

I consider myself lesbian, though I have had two long term relationships with men (5 and 3 years respectively) so I'm not sure of the importance of my opinion, but fit bod for sure! It's fairly rare that a man makes me turn my head (and I quickly turn away when I realize he may take it as a sign that I'm interested lol) but when I do, it is ALWAYS a guy with a beautiful, fit, toned body. I've for sure watched a hot guy running while sitting in my car at a red light. I think dad bods are fine, most guys end up with one I suppose, but it's hard to imagine that anyone, male or female, is lusting over one


----------



## personofinterest

CraigBesuden said:


> Obviously, then, I was unclear. I do not agree with the red pill analysis. I’m just saying that it’s there. I don’t want my nephew going down that route.


Good for you. No woman of substance will have anything to do with a red pill man. Because red pill men are either incels or bitter or have learned to be playahs who use women. Full stop. I have never encountered an exception to this rule.


----------



## Faithful Wife

In Absentia said:


> Yes, I have. I just don't like blanket statements. But it must carry some truth. I have dated girls I wasn't incredibly attracted to, but had a very interesting personality and were very intelligent. *There must be a little bit of attraction, obviously, but I wouldn't say that, for some men, is the top requirement*.


I'm pretty sure almost every man here would disagree with you, but maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## SunWhiskey

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm pretty sure almost every man here would disagree with you, but maybe I'm wrong.




It's definitely not the top requirement. Finding her attractive is a requirement, why wouldn't it be? But number one? Hardly. Given the choice between a 7 and a 10, if the 7 were more intelligent, had a better personality, and more common life goals that fit me better, the 7 would wins hand down.




To make things more complicated, people have different tastes. My 7 may be another guys 10.


----------



## Faithful Wife

SunWhiskey said:


> It's definitely not the top requirement. Finding her attractive is a requirement, why wouldn't it be? But number one? Hardly. Given the choice between a 7 and a 10, if the 7 were more intelligent, had a better personality, and more common life goals that fit me better, the 7 would wins hand down.
> 
> To make things more complicated, people have different tastes. My 7 may be another guys 10.


Ok, I would be happy to adopt to a new truth such as that men would always take the 7 with the better personality over the 10 with a lesser one.

But none of you will even *consider* a 5. 

So I'm saying my point still stands.


----------



## Mr. Nail

If women could design the man they want, they would have.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok, I would be happy to adopt to a new truth such as that men would always take the 7 with the better personality over the 10 with a lesser one.
> 
> But none of you will even *consider* a 5.
> 
> So I'm saying my point still stands.


It's a combination of the two things that's the part about it. When you see a 5 with a 9 personality, suddenly you do like their eyes, their smile, their cute butt (get your squats in fellas), whatever. So you end up with a 7. Every time I switched schools as a kid I always thought "there's not as many cute girls here" but after about 2 months, suddenly a lot of those girls were looking a lot cuter for sure. 

So I don't see why you would go for less than a 7 really. Everyone has their own scale. 7 should be the base to start dating. See if it's worthy of trying to fatten up with them or not.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I would be happy to adopt to a new truth such as that men would always take the 7 with the better personality over the 10 with a lesser one.
> 
> But none of you will even *consider* a 5.
> 
> So I'm saying my point still stands.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a combination of the two things that's the part about it. When you see a 5 with a 9 personality, suddenly you do like their eyes, their smile, their cute butt (get your squats in fellas), whatever. So you end up with a 7. Every time I switched schools as a kid I always thought "there's not as many cute girls here" but after about 2 months, suddenly a lot of those girls were looking a lot cuter for sure.
> 
> So I don't see why you would go for less than a 7 really. Everyone has their own scale. 7 should be the base to start dating. See if it's worthy of trying to fatten up with them or not.
Click to expand...

Yes a 7 minimum seems to be what men consider the only women worthy of their getting to know. True that maybe she was only a 5 to you before you hung around her for a minute, but many guys saw her as a 7 before you did so she’s still a 7.

This seems to be true even if the guy is less than a 7 himself.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes a 7 minimum seems to be what men consider the only women worthy of their getting to know. True that maybe she was only a 5 to you before you hung around her for a minute, but many guys saw her as a 7 before you did so she’s still a 7.
> 
> This seems to be true even if the guy is less than a 7 himself.


Right. Or she's a 9 to them. Or she's a 5 to them. 

Everyone has a different scale, but 7 is the lucky number for all of us :wink2:


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes a 7 minimum seems to be what men consider the only women worthy of their getting to know. True that maybe she was only a 5 to you before you hung around her for a minute, but many guys saw her as a 7 before you did so she’s still a 7.
> 
> This seems to be true even if the guy is less than a 7 himself.
> 
> 
> 
> Right. Or she's a 9 to them. Or she's a 5 to them.
> 
> Everyone has a different scale, but 7 is the lucky number for all of us <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_wink.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" ></a>
Click to expand...

Right.

I’m just questioning what always seemed true to me before now (as stated above) because the previous poster had challenged it.


----------



## CraigBesuden

Without getting too detailed, I was thin and my W was quite a bit overweight when I met her 16 years ago. It was the one thing I didn’t like about her, but it was a big thing. She had bariatric surgery a month ago. As I stated, I’m working out 2-3 hours a day at the gym and eating healthy, and expect to a six pack in a few months. I’m very excited for this fall, when we will both look better than ever before.


----------



## personofinterest

CraigBesuden said:


> Without getting too detailed, I was thin and my W was quite a bit overweight when I met her 16 years ago. It was the one thing I didn’t like about her, but it was a big thing. She had bariatric surgery a month ago. As I stated, I’m working out 2-3 hours a day at the gym and eating healthy, and expect to a six pack in a few months. I’m very excited for this fall, when we will both look better than ever before.


What made you decide to marry her anyway? Did she know you were marrying her with such a big dislike? Was her ;losing weight part of the deal, or would you have loved her the way vows demand that we love if she never lost a pound?

I understand the attractive part. A lot of people don't like it. Heck, I didn't like it. In high school and college I was a size 4-6, tall, blond, C-cup.....

But I had a big nose and struggled with acne. Add to that being shy, and no, I did not have much dating luck. I absolutely knew that had I had clear skin and a cute nose, I WOULD have gotten more attention. It felt unfair. But it just was what it was. It got a little better in college. And after I had some success in an arena where looks mattered and somehow I succeeded anyway, I got more male attention (which I rejected because hey, where were they before I was "recognized"? lol)

I mean, I'll be honest. I don't care how amazingly charismatic and wonderful a man is. If he is 5'4", 280 pounds, and has a neck beard, I ain't dating him. No matter how much I get to know him. I'm tall, btw, in case I didn't mention that.

As far as designing the perfect man, I of course didn't. But to me, hubby is perfect. Perfect for me.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> Right.
> 
> I’m just questioning what always seemed true to me before now (as stated above) because the previous poster had challenged it.


"7's the key number here..."


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mr. Nail said:


> If women could design the man they want, they would have.


Well of course we would. Why wouldn’t we? Wouldn’t men do the same if they could?

They are working on the sexbot versions of us both right now. That’s the closest we can come to designing the perfect man or woman we can get to so far.


----------



## EllisRedding

I am impressed that this thread is still going lol. Women (in general) will find guys who are in shape more attractive then those not in shape. Seems pretty obvious to me. Doesn't mean you need to be single digit bodyfat or Joe 6 pack, but having some definition of muscle will go a long way over man boobs and a gut. Physical appearance is not the only factor, and I am sure its importance will vary from person to person. IDK, stay in shape, take care of yourself, and this won't an issue.


----------



## CraigBesuden

She’s amazing in every other way. Her losing weight was never a condition but I’m happy it is happening.


----------



## personofinterest

Your wife is a better woman than I am. There is no way I would commit my life to someone who thought I was lesser because I weighed too much and only had a bachelor's degree. She must be quite a woman


----------



## CraigBesuden

I didn’t say she was “lesser.” I never thought that. We all have our pluses and minuses. There were things about me that were (and are) less than ideal. I guess it would be better to just say she’s perfect or perfect for me, but in context of whether men will only focus on looks it felt appropriate to bring it up. I guess that was a mistake.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Good for you. No woman of substance will have anything to do with a red pill man. Because red pill men are either incels or bitter or have learned to be playahs who use women. Full stop. I have never encountered an exception to this rule.



Why do you have such strong feelings towards these men? 
I imagine they didn’t start out like this..They probably got dumped or cheated on. Just like ultra feminists; there’s usually a reason why someone is, as they are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

SunWhiskey said:


> It's definitely not the top requirement. Finding her attractive is a requirement, why wouldn't it be? But number one? Hardly. Given the choice between a 7 and a 10, if the 7 were more intelligent, had a better personality, and more common life goals that fit me better, the 7 would wins hand down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To make things more complicated, people have different tastes. My 7 may be another guys 10.



I don’t know what these numbers mean....but I will always take a 10 in looks and a 10 in personality...for me.

I can’t stand dimness....even if she has the most perfect ass and tits, I know the dumbness will eventually irritate me over time beyond my level of staying sane.

If there HAD to be a choice, i would take 7 on looks and 10 on personality rather than vice versa. 5 on looks...maybe, but only if I could **** her hot sista on the side to tie me over and not make me feel like i was cheating (similar genes et al)....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

EllisRedding said:


> I am impressed that this thread is still going lol. Women (in general) will find guys who are in shape more attractive then those not in shape. Seems pretty obvious to me. Doesn't mean you need to be single digit bodyfat or Joe 6 pack, but having some definition of muscle will go a long way over man boobs and a gut. Physical appearance is not the only factor, and I am sure its importance will vary from person to person. IDK, stay in shape, take care of yourself, and this won't an issue.



Ok but isn’t it also true that a lot more women will tolerate overweight/older guys than men will tolerate overweight/older women?
If you took averages, the number would not be equal.

Do these women with the older guys have to pretend they are having sex with Hugh Jackman in order to climax?

I think there is someone for everyone, out there, in any case...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## In Absentia

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm pretty sure almost every man here would disagree with you, but maybe I'm wrong.


I don't have scientific facts to back this up, but it wasn't like this when I was still in the dating world... many years ago. Maybe men have changed a bit... :smile2:


----------



## In Absentia

I'm glad to read here that there are some men backing me up with their observations...


----------



## notmyrealname4

southbound said:


> I’ve heard several times lately on talk shows and the internet that a survey has been done, and more women are attracted to “dad bods” than the six pack ab bod. From what I gather, the dad bod has a little chubby stomach. *Is this really true?
> *



Not for me. I am attracted most to men who are concentration camp + 25lbs. Saliva squirts in my mouth if I see a guy like that with his shirt off.

No muscular dudes. No fat dudes.


----------



## personofinterest

InMyPrime said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for you. No woman of substance will have anything to do with a red pill man. Because red pill men are either incels or bitter or have learned to be playahs who use women. Full stop. I have never encountered an exception to this rule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you have such strong feelings towards these men?
> I imagine they didn’t start out like this..They probably got dumped or cheated on. Just like ultra feminists; there’s usually a reason why someone is, as they are.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

 I have the same strong feelings about ultra feminists. Do your work, deal with your krapp, and don't become an obnoxious dysfunctional human lol


----------



## farsidejunky

TheDudeLebowski said:


> It's a combination of the two things that's the part about it. When you see a 5 with a 9 personality, suddenly you do like their eyes, their smile, their cute butt (get your squats in fellas), whatever. So you end up with a 7. Every time I switched schools as a kid I always thought "there's not as many cute girls here" but after about 2 months, suddenly a lot of those girls were looking a lot cuter for sure.
> 
> So I don't see why you would go for less than a 7 really. Everyone has their own scale. 7 should be the base to start dating. See if it's worthy of trying to fatten up with them or not.





Faithful Wife said:


> Ok, I would be happy to adopt to a new truth such as that men would always take the 7 with the better personality over the 10 with a lesser one.
> 
> But none of you will even *consider* a 5.
> 
> So I'm saying my point still stands.


Unless the guy is a pretty solid 6...speaking from experience. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## dadstartingover

There were two points in my life where I had a happy sex life:

1. Early 20's. I worked out religiously.
2. Now (mid 40's). I work out religiously.

I don't think that's any coincidence. 

The "Dad Bod's are hot" thing is a myth meant to stroke the ego of sensitive men, and to keep much-needed providers from getting in shape and straying from their duties. Men just need a little bit of a nudge and they will easily turn into comfortable blobs. Nothing more satiating than to hear, "We like that you're out of shape!"


----------



## EllisRedding

InMyPrime said:


> Ok but isn’t it also true that a lot more women will tolerate overweight/older guys than men will tolerate overweight/older women?
> If you took averages, the number would not be equal.
> 
> Do these women with the older guys have to pretend they are having sex with Hugh Jackman in order to climax?
> 
> I think there is someone for everyone, out there, in any case...
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure what any of this has to do with my post lol. As far as tolerating, I really dont know. I see plenty of men with overweight wives, just like I see plenty of wives with overweight men, so I can't say if there is any validity to what you are saying.

No one is saying that physical is the only thing that matters, or that someone can't be attracted to someone if they aren't in the best physical shape. However, you will have a much easier time attracting others (or keeping your spouse interested), if you actually take care of your body.


----------



## SunWhiskey

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok, I would be happy to adopt to a new truth such as that men would always take the 7 with the better personality over the 10 with a lesser one.
> 
> But none of you will even *consider* a 5.
> 
> So I'm saying my point still stands.


A 5 would mean looks aren't even a requirement at all. That's just silly. Someone in the 5 range is neutral, not attractive to that guy.


----------



## EllisRedding

dadstartingover said:


> There were two points in my life where I had a happy sex life:
> 
> 1. Early 20's. I worked out religiously.
> 2. Now (mid 40's). I work out religiously.
> 
> I don't think that's any coincidence.
> 
> The "Dad Bod's are hot" thing is a myth meant to stroke the ego of sensitive men, and to keep much-needed providers from getting in shape and straying from their duties. Men just need a little bit of a nudge and they will easily turn into comfortable blobs. Nothing more satiating than to hear, "We like that you're out of shape!"


Funny enough, since college I have always worked out religiously, built a good amount of muscle. However, I got to the point where I was more stocky (no beer gut or such). Decided a few months ago (late 30s) I really needed to drop some weight, and in the last month or two I have really leaned out. This past week I took my family to a waterpark, and all my W kept talking about was how out of shape so many of the guys were and how she was lucky to have the guy with the best body. Women notice these things (whether guys want to admit it or not). Given how soft so many guys have become, if you want to stick out of the crowd simply take care of your body. This is the one thing you have 100% control over.


----------



## SunWhiskey

InMyPrime said:


> I don’t know what these numbers mean....but I will always take a 10 in looks and a 10 in personality...for me.
> 
> I can’t stand dimness....even if she has the most perfect ass and tits, I know the dumbness will eventually irritate me over time beyond my level of staying sane.
> 
> If there HAD to be a choice, i would take 7 on looks and 10 on personality rather than vice versa. 5 on looks...maybe, but only if I could **** her hot sista on the side to tie me over and not make me feel like i was cheating (similar genes et al)....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you can find a 10 in both, more power too you. But that would be perfection, which none of us are.


----------



## personofinterest

SunWhiskey said:


> If you can find a 10 in both, more power too you. But that would be perfection, which none of us are.


I think his point was not some objective type of perfection, but perfect for HIM.


----------



## SunWhiskey

Anyway, my entire point is that looks are not the top priority for most of us as theorized. If you disagree, then I'm simply wasting my time seeing as I am a guy.


----------



## personofinterest

SunWhiskey said:


> Anyway, my entire point is that looks are not the top priority for most of us as theorized. If you disagree, then I'm simply wasting my time seeing as I am a guy.


So the point of pointing out to IMP that perfection doesn't exist even though he said she was perfect for HIM was that men don't care as much about looks as we thought? It's kind of a round about way to get there 

I don't think looks are THE top priority for a lot of men. I also don't believe any man who says they don't matter at all.


----------



## CraigBesuden

EllisRedding said:


> dadstartingover said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were two points in my life where I had a happy sex life:
> 
> 1. Early 20's. I worked out religiously.
> 2. Now (mid 40's). I work out religiously.
> 
> I don't think that's any coincidence.
> 
> The "Dad Bod's are hot" thing is a myth meant to stroke the ego of sensitive men, and to keep much-needed providers from getting in shape and straying from their duties. Men just need a little bit of a nudge and they will easily turn into comfortable blobs. Nothing more satiating than to hear, "We like that you're out of shape!"
> 
> 
> 
> Funny enough, since college I have always worked out religiously, built a good amount of muscle. However, I got to the point where I was more stocky (no beer gut or such). Decided a few months ago (late 30s) I really needed to drop some weight, and in the last month or two I have really leaned out. This past week I took my family to a waterpark, and all my W kept talking about was how out of shape so many of the guys were and how she was lucky to have the guy with the best body. Women notice these things (whether guys want to admit it or not). Given how soft so many guys have become, if you want to stick out of the crowd simply take care of your body. This is the one thing you have 100% control over.
Click to expand...

Yep, men have 100% control over having the body that women desire. Women have to be born with right body, though weight is in their control.

When I look around at friends and family, it’s mostly out of shape women who make 2x or more what their thinner husbands make. My brother, an out of shape VP at a major company married to a fit school teacher, being a notable exception.


----------



## 269370

SunWhiskey said:


> If you can find a 10 in both, more power too you. But that would be perfection, which none of us are.




A 10 for me may not be a 10 for you; how can it be objective?
Maybe bottom, middle and top tier but even that might require some degree of subjectivity. 
Maybe we should post our spouses and get them rated, ‘objectively’, haha. 
Isn’t it how Facebook started?
Looks matter, I’m not gonna lie. But so do many other things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

EllisRedding said:


> This past week I took my family to a waterpark, and all my W kept talking about was how out of shape so many of the guys were and how she was lucky to have the guy with the best body.



I hope that reflects positively in the bedroom and that she is more eager to have sex. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

I tend to work out for health reasons, not because it makes me look better...There’s a vanity aspect that I don’t like about the whole building muscle thing. 
I think taking out 2 hours or so every few days to ‘prettify’ oneself seems not very appropriate somehow. I dunno.
Obviously being overweight would be an issue for me and I would take active steps to ensure I lost that weight. I wouldn’t want to get a heart attack.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Faithful Wife

farsidejunky said:


> Unless the guy is a pretty solid 6...speaking from experience.


Not sure what would happen if the guy is a solid 6?


----------



## Taxman

I have been on both sides of this question. In my particular circumstance, the "Dad Bod" is not. The current bod is hot. Sorry, but my wife at 65 is a knockout, she puts women 20-30 years younger to shame. Why would I give a woman who has worked on her body through diet and exercise something less than she deserves. I did so for a lot of years, however the last decade or so, she has been getting a much fitter version of myself. and if plans stay on track, by the end of this year, I should have my weight below 190Lbs, my pecs are getting shape and my abs are just starting to show through the flab. It is an interesting feat for two seniors, looking and feeling better than when we were in our 20's.


----------



## EllisRedding

InMyPrime said:


> I hope that reflects positively in the bedroom and that she is more eager to have sex.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very much yes...


----------



## SunWhiskey

personofinterest said:


> So the point of pointing out to IMP that perfection doesn't exist even though he said she was perfect for HIM was that men don't care as much about looks as we thought? It's kind of a round about way to get there
> 
> I don't think looks are THE top priority for a lot of men. I also don't believe any man who says they don't matter at all.


I don't get the smug wink face as if you proved something you didn't prove.


----------



## personofinterest

SunWhiskey said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the point of pointing out to IMP that perfection doesn't exist even though he said she was perfect for HIM was that men don't care as much about looks as we thought? It's kind of a round about way to get there <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" ></a>
> 
> I don't think looks are THE top priority for a lot of men. I also don't believe any man who says they don't matter at all.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get the smug wink face as if you proved something you didn't prove.
Click to expand...

 It was meant to be funny not smug. Sometimes I am emoji challenged lol


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok, I would be happy to adopt to a new truth such as that men would always take the 7 with the better personality over the 10 with a lesser one.
> 
> *But none of you will even consider a 5. *
> 
> So I'm saying my point still stands.


 If she is truly a "she" and has boobs and a vagina she's already a 6. Arms, legs and hair make her a 6.5 :grin2:.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rubix Cubed said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I would be happy to adopt to a new truth such as that men would always take the 7 with the better personality over the 10 with a lesser one.
> 
> *But none of you will even consider a 5. *
> 
> So I'm saying my point still stands.
> 
> 
> 
> If she is truly a "she" and has boobs and a vagina she's already a 6. Arms, legs and hair make her a 6.5 <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_grin.png" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" ></a>.
Click to expand...

Duly noted.

I’m sorry I can’t make a similar claim about men being a 6 or better. They need a lot more than that, IMO.


----------



## 269370

Presumably a 6.499 man could also make do with a penis 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Laurentium

Mr. Nail said:


> If women could design the man they want, they would have.


In a sense, that's already happened: that's what evolution does. If women _don't _want it, it exits the gene pool.



TheDudeLebowski said:


> Every time I switched schools as a kid I always thought "there's not as many cute girls here" but after about 2 months, suddenly a lot of those girls were looking a lot cuter for sure.


Yeah, we automatically adjust our scales to the prevailing social environment. 

I knew a guy who was a bus driver, aged in his 40s, for a school bus full of teenage girls. Interacting with them every day gave him a false reading, making it hard for him to find women of his own age attractive. I think it can be the same for male schoolteachers, although they won't generally talk about it! These unconscious mechanisms are pretty finely tuned!


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Laurentium said:


> In a sense, that's already happened: that's what evolution does. If women _don't _want it, it exits the gene pool.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, we automatically adjust our scales to the prevailing social environment.
> 
> I knew a guy who was a bus driver, aged in his 40s, for a school bus full of teenage girls. Interacting with them every day gave him a false reading, making it hard for him to find women of his own age attractive. *I think it can be the same for male schoolteachers,* although they won't generally talk about it! These unconscious mechanisms are pretty finely tuned!


Most male teachers are gay.


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## TheDudeLebowski

InMyPrime said:


> Presumably a 6.499 man could also make do with with a penis
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


FW is a slot machine. Land a triple 7 and she starts making exciting noises. 7 looks, 7 personality, 7"+ dong.


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## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> FW is a slot machine....



Thank goodness there are no spelling mistakes...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks

Mr.Married said:


> I swear either I'm going crazy or TAM is getting nuttier by the day.


It can't be both?:grin2:


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## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> FW is a slot machine. Land a triple 7 and she starts making exciting noises. 7 looks, 7 personality, 7"+ dong.


No, It takes an overall score of better than 7 on several things besides what you listed.

Most points added for skillz.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> No, It takes an overall score of better than 7 on several things besides what you listed.
> 
> Most points added for skillz.


“I don't even have any good*skills. You know like*nunchuck skills,*bow hunting skills, computer hackingskills. Girls only want boyfriends who have great*skills!”


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## farsidejunky

Faithful Wife said:


> Not sure what would happen if the guy is a solid 6?


A realistic 6 would understand (within reasons) his limitations. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Rubix Cubed

Faithful Wife said:


> No, It takes an overall score of better than 7 on several things besides what you listed.
> 
> Most points added for skillz.


 What would you honestly rate yourself?


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## TheDudeLebowski

farsidejunky said:


> A realistic 6 would understand (within reasons) his limitations.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Us 3s know too.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Rubix Cubed said:


> What would you honestly rate yourself?


Ideally one would rate themselves as a 8 I think. This leaves room for self awareness and such, but also allows for healthy self esteem. 

I'm damn good looking, but I have some issues. I'm probably around a 5 or 6 myself.


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## Faithful Wife

Rubix Cubed said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, It takes an overall score of better than 7 on several things besides what you listed.
> 
> Most points added for skillz.
> 
> 
> 
> What would you honestly rate yourself?
Click to expand...

That’s a fair question, but we do not get to rate ourselves. We get rated by the people who choose or reject us. Though it’s only relevant to me what someone I am interested in thinks. Randos on a street corner rating me is not my concern (same as me making cat calls to some hot dude walking by, he has no reason to accept it as a compliment, he may consider it creepy). 

All I know is that I am able to attract men that I am attracted to. 

The stuff about a minimum of 7 is a joke. The reality is that I don’t know what anyone else would rate the guys I date as. People have different tastes.


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## Rubix Cubed

Faithful Wife said:


> That’s a fair question, but we do not get to rate ourselves.


 Nice dodge.
I disagree with not rating ourselves. You may not want to write it on this board but you know you have rated yourself and judge suitable companions to that rating, as everyone does. You write about it here a lot. Nothing wrong with it unless you think you're a 12 on a scale of 1-10 and you're really a 6.5.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> That’s a fair question, but we do not get to rate ourselves. We get rated by the people who choose or reject us. Though it’s only relevant to me what someone I am interested in thinks. Randos on a street corner rating me is not my concern (same as me making cat calls to some hot dude walking by, he has no reason to accept it as a compliment, he may consider it creepy).
> 
> All I know is that I am able to attract men that I am attracted to.
> 
> The stuff about a minimum of 7 is a joke. The reality is that I don’t know what anyone else would rate the guys I date as. People have different tastes.


As someone with self worth issues, rating yourself is probably a bad idea actually. Then again, you can choose to surround yourself with others who rate you high or those who would rate you low. So you can feed your ego however you like really. So on that level, I think its important to rate yourself. 

I have this thing where I surround myself with those who are better than me. Then I almost feel like I'm better myself. Deep down I know we are all flawed, but there's levels to this. I could think of myself the way I do, then choose to surround myself with those who feel the same way about me as I do. But then I would be down even further in a hole. Yin and yang right? So I stay up in the clean sunshine even though I'm really down in the mud. If I choose to stay around in the mud where I belong, I'll lose all sight. It's only mud down there. 

Some of us find a way to make a 8 see us as equals. Then find all of the 8s, 9s, and 10s that see us as a 8 and we stick together. Secretly knowing we are 5s at best.


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## TheDudeLebowski

I think only 8s, 9s, and 10s aren't concerned with rating themselves.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Eh.

It's all in the averages.

Ask me, I'm an 11, knowing I'm an 9, but have been known to do certain 6ish things, but also doing 12ish things.

Puts me in the solid don't know, don't care, but I have a good track record overall.

😎😎😎


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## TheDudeLebowski

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Eh.
> 
> It's all in the averages.
> 
> Ask me, I'm an 11, knowing I'm an 9, but have been known to do certain 6ish things, but also doing 12ish things.
> 
> Puts me in the solid don't know, don't care, but I have a good track record overall.
> 
> 😎😎😎


8s, 9s, and 10s aren't concerned with rating themselves. Just the rest of us.


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## Faithful Wife

Rubix Cubed said:


> Nice dodge.
> I disagree with not rating ourselves. You may not want to write it on this board but you know you have rated yourself and judge suitable companions to that rating, as everyone does. You write about it here a lot. Nothing wrong with it unless you think you're a 12 on a scale of 1-10 and you're really a 6.5.


Rate myself as a number...

Only within my own dating pool?

Only among women my age?

Among all women? Of all colors, shapes, types? 

I'm gonna call me a 7, because that's the TAM normal. 

In reality, I'm worth way more than a number or what I look like. The same way I rate guys on a multiple point scale (which I do not actually assign numbers to, that is stupid) I seem to be rated by them that way too. I'm a good person, a quality woman, decent career, happy extended family, and I'm decent looking. But the points for things like how fun I am and how much energy and enthusiasm, and how positive I am - - these are not always a plus to some people. Some guys don't want a peppy, chatty fun woman. They more like the museum types or the ones who will ride dirt bikes with them.

Likewise I have a ridiculously expensive and time consuming hobby, which some men slaver over and others want nothing to do with.

These are things that don't land on any of the number scales.


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## Rubix Cubed

Faithful Wife said:


> Likewise I have a ridiculously expensive and time consuming hobby, which some men slaver over and others want nothing to do with.


 Horses?


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## Faithful Wife

Rubix Cubed said:


> Horses?


Racecar.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> Racecar.


FW is only into race cars that have a nice large backseat though if you know what I mean :wink2:

You won't see FW in any old 2 seater. :grin2:


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Rubix Cubed said:


> Horses?


Horsepower!!


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## Middle of Everything

Faithful Wife said:


> Racecar.


Dirt track type racecar, rallycar, 24hrs of Lemans? What we talkin here?

Gotta be road course type sh!t. You dont strike me as a dirt track type lady.


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## Faithful Wife

It's a show race car. Meaning it is a race car but is so fancy that it goes into car shows. However, where I live there is a race track where you can safely take your car out and let 'er rip. I could never actually race it against other cars, baby is too precious for that. I have not done it yet because it costs a lot of money. However there is a drag strip I will probably get it on here soon just to see how fast I can get to in that short distance. 

https://www.portlandraceway.com/

The very most important and time consuming part of my hobby is just plain driving the car. Taking it for a spin around town is the best part of all of it.

Winning first place awards at car shows ain't bad either.

ETA: Wanted to add/reiterate...some men are simply NOT into this hobby. I don't know what for sure their opposition to it is, probably just that it is so time consuming and they realize it could limit my available dating time. Other guys are just more into efficient cars and see this as a ridiculous extravagance that doesn't line up with their values. Some guys maybe assume they would be expected to attend things with me and don't want to commit to doing that (they would not be, in fact I would discourage it). I have had a couple of guys (met them via online dating) who seem to be into me, we start talking about meeting in person and sometimes we actually do meet, then they hear about the car and I don't hear from them again. Of course there could be any reason for that, but the ones I met in person I can actually see their fact shift when they are hearing about it. I suppose I might feel the same about a guy who had horses or a farm, I might assume there would not be time for me.


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## Middle of Everything

Faithful Wife said:


> It's a show race car. Meaning it is a race car but is so fancy that it goes into car shows. However, where I live there is a race track where you can safely take your car out and let 'er rip. I could never actually race it against other cars, baby is too precious for that. I have not done it yet because it costs a lot of money. However there is a drag strip I will probably get it on here soon just to see how fast I can get to in that short distance.
> 
> https://www.portlandraceway.com/
> 
> The very most important and time consuming part of my hobby is just plain driving the car. Taking it for a spin around town is the best part of all of it.
> 
> Winning first place awards at car shows ain't bad either.


At least you drive it. You dont rub it with a diaper ala Ferris Buellers day of do you?:wink2:


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## Faithful Wife

Middle of Everything said:


> At least you drive it. You dont rub it with a diaper ala Ferris Buellers day of do you?:wink2:


I drive the **** out of it, but I also rub it with a diaper when it gets back to the garage. They are just called "expensive fancy show car cloths" rather than diapers, but they are more expensive than diapers and have to be even more sterile! :laugh:


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## 2&out

MofE - unless it's changed I think FW has a resto-mod.


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## Rubix Cubed

Faithful Wife said:


> Racecar.


Nice , finally something in common.

Is it as said above a resto-mod? I have one of them myself.


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## ReformedHubby

Middle of Everything said:


> At least you drive it. You dont rub it with a diaper ala Ferris Buellers day of do you?:wink2:


LoL, I hear you. Cars are meant to be driven...not polished.


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## stefanjames

At least you drive it. You dont rub it with a diaper ala Ferris Buellers day of do you?


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