# Support Needed, this is doing my head in :(



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Hubby (and to a lesser extent, me) is under horrendous stress at the moment folks...watching him go through is just heartbreaking 

His daughter, out of the blue, is saying she doesn’t want to come to our home, and her mother (ex w) is encouraging it. EX W is telling SD that she does have a say and that she doesn't have to come if she doesn't want to. This is untrue. Here in Australia, children have a say when they turn 12, the judge will listen but there is NO guarantee that the childs request will be honoured.

This is right out of the blue. SD has enjoyed her time here with us and at her time at ex w's. SD has spent an extra day here almost every week this entire year - with ex w's permission, often screaming blue murder when we told her we had to take her back to her mother's. She gave her mother a long list of (untrue!!) reasons why she doesn’t want to come here, and her mother appears to believe her, and has told SD that she doesn’t have to come to our house if she doesn’t want to.

Some of the reasons given by SD are:

She says that we don’t spend enough time with her - not true. That we don’t pay any attention to her - not true. That hubby isn’t interested in anything she does - he went on a scout camp with her only weeks ago. He (we) also go to any school or scout functions that we’re aware of, excitedly and proudly. Her mother knows this! 

She told her mother that we don’t care if she brushes her hair, but I brush her hair for school every day, and often put it up. There was one instance recently where she was misbehaving and not standing still while I tried to brush her so I stopped and made her to school anyway - a natural consequences of bad behaviour. That’s the ONLY time. I do however believe that at 10 years old she should be brushing her own hair.

She’s saying that we don’t make her shower daily, and that she goes days without washing in our house - again, NOT true. When we tell her to have a shower, she refuses and WW3 erupts if we push the point. We have even threatened to drag her upstairs by the hands and ankles and put her in the shower fully clothed, but she still refuses. To avoid this, we have made concessions that she doesn’t have to shower but she DOES have to wash under her arms and her bottom with soap and her shower sponge every day. I often tell her that her hair is starting to look dirty and needs washing, so how she can say that we don’t care about her hygiene is beyond the both of us. Again, she’s 10 years old, I believe that she should be doing this herself with no more than a “please go have a shower”. It shouldn't take WW3 and threats of loss of privileges to get a 10 year old to have a shower.

SD is saying that we don’t make her take her asthma prevention medication. I ask her every day, morning and night “have you had your Seretide sweetie?” she responds “yes”. Knowing her as I do, I know that if I made her prove it or suggested that she hadn’t done it, she would tell her mother that I called her a liar. I don’t know what else we can do. She told her mother that we don’t make her clean her teeth - again, she’s 10, but I digress. Hubby tells her every night when she goes to bed to take her sere tide and clean her teeth. When he asks her has she done it, she tells him that she has.

The above, if this goes down the legal road could be potentially devastating for my hubby in court.

Other frivolous reasons given are things like she can’t leave her toys on the floor - we have dogs and inevitably things get moved, picked up or wandered off with, so she has to put her toys away here. A couple of other silly examples but I can’t remember them right now.

We have an appointment with a child psychologist this afternoon. We've seen her before, under very similar circumstances. We are hoping that she will make it clear to ex w that she cannot dictate the parenting arrangements, and that she must make it clear to SD that she does not have a say in it. Hubby is extremely distressed. We don’t understand why ex w and SD are doing this. 

Watching my gorgeous hubby go through this is so hard...he's such a devoted daddy. He's not perfect but who is? Certainly not the childs mother! I know single mothers who would give their right arm for an ex husband who wants to actively be involved in the raising of his children. 

Sorry this is so long...


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## Deep Down (Jun 21, 2014)

Sounds terrible, does SD have history of making up these stories? Could her mum be encouraging this? Why has she been staying an extra day each week? Hope you get good resolution with the psychologist!


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Tough one, but worrying.

My first thought is a suspicion that mom may've supported/encouraged/ghost-written said list, in lieu of an impending bid for a custody change. If she has, it's a very clever one. Just the 'right' amount of abuse, nothing too 'heavy', to convince the unsuspecting that it's genuine.

Hard to buy she conceived this list to avoid a daily shower and a few other no-big-deals.

My recollection of being 10 is hazy but I recall squawking and making a big fuss over single issues. If I got a rollicking for hitting my little brother(s) on the shin with a cricket ball, I'd dwell on the injustice of that - not write about how I got made to eat my greens the previous Wednesday.


Of course, the trauma of parental seperation frequently lead to kids playing one parent against another,,, but this seems excessive and contrived.


If she did come up with this on her own, her hissy fits and (apparent) numerous resentments, making mountains out of molehills - remembered, documented, presented, not withdrawn but persued like a quest for vengeance - are STRONGLY indicative of borderline personality disorder (BPD. Look it up if you've not heard of it) or something very similar.

If you're sure mom didn't do it, I'd want that child assessed YESTERDAY. If BPDs turn their emotion inward they can self-harm and suicide. Outwards and they damage every relationship they get in, the children they ALWAYS have and use as a manipulation 'tool' and perpetuate dramas on a daily basis. See Jodi Arias.


Lastly - a food allergy can produce strange behaviours but, again, her doing this alone is excessive and unusual. Believe me, a mad mom and a custody battle is a holiday compared to a BPD teenager/adult. They can be treated but not cured. Pray it's the mom. If not, get her to a shrink, with or without a shower.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Sorry. Did you edit and add the psychologist part? I may've accidentally skipped it. Tiny scroll buttons on my mobile.

Glad to learn she's seeing one anyway and hope, for your sake(s) it's little or nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Other than feeling like you guys are ignoring her, and picking up her toys there isn't a damn thing on that list that a 10 year old would actually be upset about.

However, at 10 she should not be fighting a bath/shower. Is she a tom boy type, rough and tumble? I could see this with a 5-6 year old but not 10. In fact a 10 year old girl who fights bathing to that extent set off alarm bells for me. Is her body changing? Is she very very shy and modest about changing and privacy? Is so, to what extent?

It is the parents responsibility to teach grooming. Most girls dislike having someone else brush out their hair because of the knots and snags, it's less painful for them to do it themselves but they have to be taught how to do that. How long is her hair and why is it so difficult for her to brush it out herself? Again, this isn't adding up for me.

It seems pretty clear she is being manipulated by her mother. But the issues noted above, the grooming issues, they indicate the girl has got something going on that needs to be addressed.

Look into Parental Alienation. It's just horrible for the child and for the other parent. Frankly, if the child's mother is capable of something so damaging as parental alienation, she is also capable of other nasty things that could be a clue about why the girl refuses to bathe.

Symptoms of Parental Alienation (PA)


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Hi all, we're back. It went ok...still more things to discuss but ex w was told to knock it off with the "you don't have to go if you don't want to".

She's always been funny about showers, as long as I've known her. I thought she would have outgrown that long ago though...along with having to have her hair brushed. 

I agree that a 10 year old wouldn't give two hoots about most things on her list. I also think that it gives a 10 year old way too much power for her mother to sit with her, write a list of her grievances and then ring my husband in front of their daughter to discuss it - who the f does that????

We've had a similar problem before, so I'm well versed in PA, but I read that link you sent Anon, and his ex w does almost all the things on that list. Hubby asked me to send him the link too - and he said to thank you for alerting us to it.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Glad it went OK.

Something very fishy about the whole thing.

She'd be an exceptional child to make those steps from remembering/resenting all the things on her abuse/neglect list to seeking revenge. It smacks of something she shouldn't be capable of for a few years yet. List too long and a complex thought process sustained over too long a period. It has ADULT written all over it and, like Anon said, makes you wonder what else she's done and is capable of.

The real travesty is, to get to the bottom of it the poor girl would/will likely be subjected to considerable questioning by professionals or left in the care of the ex when she has custody. Either might well further traumatise her while she's clearly troubled already.

I feel for you, your hubby and the kid and wish you a swift solution,,, and the right one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

I think at 10, she is starting to understand she has some control over her own life. She's rebelling over the simple things she can control - like taking a shower and brushing her own hair. 

Take it in stride, just as you are... Your husband needs to stand firm with his rights, rules and parenting time. And he is...

So keep on keeping on!

PS... I just had the conversation about not being the smelly kid with my 17 yr old... He kinda quacked me up when he said it wasn't the water he was averting but using the soap part...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I know you care about your SD frusdil but sorry to say that generally children don't take well to having two mothers which is why all of the professionals we (partner and I) sought advice from before attempting to blend our families stated that the step parent should not parent the step child, they should simply be a support person for the child but mostly for the bio parent. 

Mr H and I have very set guidelines we follow and so far we have 5 happy step kids between us. 

In this instance I would take a step back, do not engage with the bio mum or step daughter in regard to any parenting discussions. Leave it up to the parents or you will run a huge risk of alienating yourself in this situation.

It does not matter who is wrong or right, in blended families it is opposite to bio families as the harder you try to push the further away you will become. The difficult thing is that bio kids bounce back with discipline from their parents but step kids will push you away and resentment will grow, once that happens there is very little chance of coming back.

After reading your other posts on how well you all used to get along, bio mum and you it does not sound like parental alienation but more like resentments are setting in. Toes have been trod on, boundaries blurred and pre teens are kicking in.

In our house we each step back from parenting the others kids, I know many here think this is not the way to live but we have our own success to show that it works well.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

What activity is she engaged in when you are asking her to shower? Computer? tv?


Also... this sounds like a child who is resisting personal responsibility and blameshifting to you...


What consequences are there when she refuses personal responsibility?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Stay out of the fray. Don't get emotional. And protect your rights. If she's not old enough to say legally she doesn't want to come, tell the judge you want her to come. She's testing the boundaries to see what power she has. She's too young for power. Don't give it to her.


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

The list of grievances sounds just like a child. I can't even believe her mother entertained it & actually believed it's enough to request a change in visitation. Any judge worth their salt would be able to see past that.

It's not just the daughter testing boundaries, it's her mother too. Frusdil, as long as your husband stands his ground I doubt it will go far....unless the ex-W is one of _those_ that likes going to court over every little thing.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

JustTired said:


> The list of grievances sounds just like a child. I can't even believe her mother entertained it & actually believed,,,,,
> 
> ....unless the ex-W is one of _those_ that likes going to court over every little thing.


If it were JUST, a list I'd agree with you, JT. Thereafter there's a disturbing pattern, though. A child might add any of the following to an instance or two, but each thing, each time, then persue them doggedly to punish dad and s-mum?

If the child were just a 'brat', frequently as happy at one home as the other (as the OP states), where's dad's list about mum? Even a little, abandoned list, or unrelated to resentment list of cute animals? Non listers don't suddenly make long detailed lists with agendas.

The OP doesn't detail each incident, but there's enough to be VERY suspicious.

The OP describes the incidents, the child exaggerates them AND the number of times it happened. A handful of things any stressed parent might do, exaggerated to make them seem more abusive/neglectful than they are, then multiplied to suggest that the exaggerated incidents are ritualistic. To a court, that alters acceptable chastisement to "at risk". Then hanging onto it all and prosecuting it like a vendetta.


I think you're right and the ex does LIKE to take this to court. I really hope your downplaying the list and me making a big deal out of it makes ME look a bit of a dìck. All I know is, if that child were related to me, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Now that the child has been 'cleared' by the shrink I'm concerned (and quite embarrassed) that I saw clues of a BPD (or similar) and ascribed them to the wrong generation.

The list, the details, the cunning exaggerations and the planning. Manipulating/using the child and the court to exact vengeance on the guy who (in her mind) abandoned her and the woman who stole him. A big, fantastic drama for her. You bet she likes it.

Ex hubby would be wise to read common behaviours of BPD, just to see what fits. He'd be best to know because behind closed doors with their partners is where BPDs let it all hang out.

Again, really hope I'm wrong but there's a child involved. I'd rather endure a little humiliation than the guilt of not flagging it when I suspected it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deep Down (Jun 21, 2014)

I just read that list of symptoms of PA. It's almost the textbook that my H's XW used! 

And giving the child the choice over access is SO wrong.  This is what's happened with my H's kids so they demand more and more fantastic holidays from their Dad just so he can see them. It's so horrible.

frusdil, I'm so glad you have the child psych to help with these things and keep them under control. Sounds like it may be on the mend.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I hope this isn't taken the wrong way but I think that just because our legal system treats children like property without rights doesn't mean we should believe this is the right way to treat them. I think that at some point a child should have a say in their own upbringing, for better or worse. A 10yr old who has not learned to love her time spent with her father by now is not going to start at this point. I think it will get worse if forced. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. I think you should give her the space she is desperately seeking. Let her feel like she has some control over her own life.

To add, this is assuming the child is still being cared for by an adult in the meantime with no abuse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

breeze said:


> I hope this isn't taken the wrong way but I think that just because our legal system treats children like property without rights doesn't mean we should believe this is the right way to treat them. I think that at some point a child should have a say in their own upbringing, for better or worse. A 10yr old who has not learned to love her time spent with her father by now is not going to start at this point. I think it will get worse if forced. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. I think you should give her the space she is desperately seeking. Let her feel like she has some control over her own life.
> 
> To add, this is assuming the child is still being cared for by an adult in the meantime with no abuse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't agree. If a child has a problem because, at daddy's house, she has bunny pj's and at mommy's she has donkey pj's and she likes donkeys over bunnies, why is it that she isn't TOLD she HAS to go to daddy's?

Kids need to know, things are what they are. End of story.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

breeze said:


> I hope this isn't taken the wrong way but I think that just because our legal system treats children like property without rights doesn't mean we should believe this is the right way to treat them. I think that at some point a child should have a say in their own upbringing, for better or worse. A 10yr old who has not learned to love her time spent with her father by now is not going to start at this point. I think it will get worse if forced. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. I think you should give her the space she is desperately seeking. Let her feel like she has some control over her own life.
> 
> To add, this is assuming the child is still being cared for by an adult in the meantime with no abuse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Also assuming the mother isn't wacko and all too ready to ruin her daughter's life and brainwash her just to stick it to her exhusband.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

It's a tough one...and odd in that, I truly believe (and so does my hubby) that none of this is actually aimed at me...it's all him  Ex w really wants to stick it to him, and too bad if their daughter is damaged because of it. I'm just caught in the crossfire. I do my best to shield SD but I won't not back my husband...he doesn't deserve this.

It is a case of donkeys over bunnies - see Revamped's post for anyone who doesn't get the reference  

It's also a case of mummy telling her she has a choice - when she doesn't, treating her like a friend - she's not her friend, she's her daughter and sharing too much information with her.

Kids should be allowed to be kids. They shouldn't have to deal with all this crap, it's not fair 

Something else that's come out of the meeting, I mentioned to my hubby about a year ago that I felt something was different about SD, and that there is a possibility that she's on the Spectrum. The psychologist agrees, due to other things that came out of the meeting yesterday and so she is going to be assessed. They psych then stressed to the ex w, that if SD IS on the spectrum, routine and stability is more important to her than ever.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

So things are still about the same. Something is definitely going on with ex w and SD. 

SD has ALWAYS been close to her daddy, daddy's little girl. She adored him, wanted to be with him always, wanted to marry him when she grows up, lol. Now, all of a sudden she hates him? Doesn't want to go to his (our) house? I'm not buying it.

She told me yesterday that I love my husband more than I love her. I explained that I don't, that I love them the same just in different ways. Just like you love mum and dad the same amount just in a different way. She then said that she doesn't love them equally, she loves her mother more than her dad  I said that never is she to say that to him because it would break his heart.

This is NOT normal for her. She's acting out, being very rude, giving attitude, telling lies and constantly saying she wants to go back to her mothers. WTF is going on?

I wonder if the mothers relationship with her boyfriend has hit a snag...but seriously, that's not and shouldn't be made to be, our problem. Do we have to go through this every time mummy has trouble in loverville? She's on her second live in bf since the divorce. So SD has been through a divorce, then a live in bf that didn't work out and now this new fella.

Bloody hell.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Sadly, there's no way to monitor the exW's daily behaviour so no way to be certain, but,,,,

I remain convinced that list had ADULT written all over it,,, and it indicates a disturbing, conniving maliciousness and likely PD. How well she hides it depends on the severity of it and her personality,, but in the home is where it'll show itself.

It's possible the SD witnesses all kinds of dramas. If so, post drama ExW'll go to the SD, apologising for the 'noise' but adding that she's upset cuz of how mean daddy and the BFs are. Naturally, the SD will buy into her daddy hurts mommy crap and get mad at him too.

That might explain it, but lacking info on the ex's routine it's impossible to be sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

See if there's some place you can file a complaint. Not to get them to do anything, but to have an ongoing record in the city records. Or at least with a child psychologist or something.


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