# Help



## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

Hello tam friends,
I a here a lot but don't post much. I have thought about telling my story and get advice but I see the story repeating in many of you.

Briefly, 10 year in the marriage, 4 year boy. Like so many of your story she has grown and became more independent. She started showing disrespect every chance she gets. I have been walking on a egg shell for a long time. We both earn good money, but finance creates lot of the problems.

We have fallen apart and each time I wanted to talk, nothing but scream and name calling and almost disrespect.

I will finish the story later. Anybody know good lawyer in Minnesota? That's the help I need now.

I am trying to detach myself and getting emotionally ready.


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## Carlchurchill (Jan 23, 2013)

Sounds normal to me...

Get a good healthy hobby, start dating your wife again, be a proactive dad and in no time your life will turn around!!!


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

Carlchurchill said:


> Sounds normal to me...
> 
> Get a good healthy hobby, start dating your wife again, be a proactive dad and in no time your life will turn around!!!


You know that's the thing I don't understand. I was doing all of those more than ever. It did not seem to improve. Yes, we have great time during date and gift exchange and stuff. And then simple issue creates no talk for 2 months. Sometimes I feel like we stay happy only when I am saying " yes mam" all the time. But I am a strong and smart individual. I have opinion and second thoughts about things that may not be aligned with her. I almost feel like she is competing with me in every single front. I just don't know what is this race about.

She created her own world and made everything very separated like finance, and other stuff. 

Now what I really get confused about is if I start dating her again, isn't this completely opposite of 180?

If I keep dating her and doing All the good stuff, Am I not rewarding her bad behavior?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Just trying to get a better picture of things in your marriage.

How many hours a week do you and your wife spend doing date-like things together, just the two of you. Date-like things can be anything from dinner out, going to an event like an arts fair, going for a walk together and talking, having a drink or coffee together and talking. the point is to focus on each other.


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

Thanks EG for asking. I can't be accurate on the hours a week, but when we are in good terms we did at least one lunch or dinner out 2/3 hours a week for that. Then during summer we go to park or event or walking or running 1/2 times a week, so that's 2/3 hours.

I actually enjoy those times a lot and I have been a leader initiating those time out in last couple years. 

But there are small things in the past she can never forget although, it was not really my fault and somewhat triggered by her. For example, I did not bring any gift to one of our anniversaries. I did not because we were not in good terms during that time and were sleeping separate and she was showing anger every chance she was getting.


Here is another example, lets say i bought her a great gift, we had nice time out, perfect date. We came home, we were talking. Then she always find a way to mess it up by bringing an small event that happened in he past. 

We frequently go from high peak to sudden low peak.

What do you suggest when we are in low peak? Should I still bring things, should I still keep buying gift on a significant day like birth day, marriage day. She does not for me when we are not in good terms.

The things that gets me is the disrespect. I am pretty successful in my career. So does she.I have hard time telling her bad words or name calling. This is not just in my value or nature. But she can be the meanest person in a matter of second.

She has lately told me, she does not feel the same way for me.

Human learn and grow and I am no exception. I have matured a lot since the time I got married. With maturity I have been really lot better about caring, respecting and loving her. But it looks like I had better marriage when I was not doing much of those.

I do know from my personal values, I am very tough on myself than anybody. I am 34 and I got married around 24. First marriage.

I will continue writing as you guys keep giving me advice.

Excuse my English as well. I was born in Oriental country.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

I am against divorce if it can be helped.
There seems to be a power struggle. You dont tell us why you have money problems if you both earn good money. From your words I gather she earns more or about the same as you. I dont know what 'almost' disrespect means. 

I suppose you have gone on the counselling route. You do have a young child and he also has to be thought of. 

You sound like you have given up. You know best. It is hard if you cant talk to someone. Have you perhaps tried with a letter. That sometimes works. Otherwise say or write you would like to discuss it without name calling from either of you. 

I suppose you are the only one who wants to separate. So there must be something that she sees in you that she wants to be with you. I still think a chance exists.


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

accept1 said:


> I am against divorce if it can be helped.
> There seems to be a power struggle. You dont tell us why you have money problems if you both earn good money. From your words I gather she earns more or about the same as you. I dont know what 'almost' disrespect means.
> 
> I suppose you have gone on the counselling route. You do have a young child and he also has to be thought of.
> ...


Yes, we both make similar amount. We could never agree on who spend on what. She thinks me being a man, I should take care off everything and not worry about her money. She tend to spend on the things that she needs to spend to perform her work. Each time we have conversation about this, it did not wend well.


I don't want D. She actually brings it up frequently after each episode. I have written many letters. She picks the thing she likes from the letter. So, if I say thousand time one thing she won't refer to it, but if I say something one time but she want to pick, she will keep referring to it.

I can not carry on any conversation with her related to our problem more than 5 minutes before she loose her tempera and start name calling and blaming.

She likes revenge and will bring back things from 16 years back.

I am planning on counseling. He reason I am thinking D because
Lot of her activities indicating she started working on it long back.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

PeaceTrain said:


> Yes, we both make similar amount. We could never agree on who spend on what. She thinks me being a man, I should take care off everything and not worry about her money. She tend to spend on the things that she needs to spend to perform her work. Each time we have conversation about this, it did not wend well.
> 
> What exactly do you mean. What are your arguments about money. Does she expect you to pay all the bills from your earnings and spend hers on herself.
> 
> ...


Counselling wont help much if you are both bent on divorce.


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

accept1 said:


> Counselling wont help much if you are both bent on divorce.



I don't know about her. But I really don't want D. But what if she wants it and started working in it, I don't want to be unprepared.

Regarding money, she spends on the things that she needed to go to job like sending child to day care, buying her official cloth etc. rest of them is up to me. So time to time, I will ask for sharing n expenses like let's ay furniture and vacation. She gets real upset on this. One thing I did decide is I don't want to get D over money.

However the disrespect I see for asking to share money for things we both agreed to buy almost makes me not want to ask her at all.

Lot of times I ink our problem is simple, we don't have problem with jobs, earning. I did not cheat. She did not as far as I know. Although I get confused lately with long hours at work and other symptoms. But what makes me not believe those is, we had great time when we do. But those are few and short.

Lately for a while, I have been accommodative to lot of the things she wanted. Like frequent vacations, having more interaction with her family. Very supportive to her jobs and career etc.

What actually trigger the bad episode is the tone, yell and shouting and name calling within 1 minute of a discussion. When that happens it is very though to stay silent. So I have called and ask don't raise your voice, don't name call. I have told her politely and harshly. Things don't change though.

She is pretty smart, hard working and accomplished. I thought she would realize her approach to conversation ruin everything. I told her many times, but she does not see that with her. I wonder if she is thinking at this point she could have done lot better not marrying with me. Or may be EA, who knows.


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

PeaceTrain said:


> I don't know about her. But I really don't want D. But what if she wants it and started working in it, I don't want to be unprepared.
> 
> Regarding money, she spends on the things that she needed to go to job like sending child to day care, buying her official cloth etc. rest of them is up to me. So time to time, I will ask for sharing n expenses like let's ay furniture and vacation. She gets real upset on this. One thing I did decide is I don't want to get D over money.
> 
> ...


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

Oops the above message should not be in quote.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

Well I am still in the dark of what your arguments are really about. You say you would like counselling have you asked her about this.

Once she starts yelling etc its too late to tell her to stop.

About money. The real question is if she has enough left after her outgoings to help with the household and vacations or if you dont have enough for them.

When you both agree to 'buy' at the same time you should both be agreeing where the money is coming from.

As far as I can see from your posts. The main thing seems to be money at least you havent told us anything else.


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

accept1 said:


> Well I am still in the dark of what your arguments are really about. You say you would like counselling have you asked her about this.
> 
> Once she starts yelling etc its too late to tell her to stop.
> 
> ...


When we agree to buy, it does not mean she would share the expense. She thinks I need to pay for it. She frequently say, what if she did not work.

It is not about whether I have enough left or not. I have no access to her finance at all. So I don't know what she does with it. I started not caring about it. I could still do vacation and stuff and manage to save little. But I constantly feel like why I am settling so much. I would if I see some desire, want about me from her end. I don't see it. When we have good time, it is me with so much effort.

Money is a factor, but I don't think this is all of it. For example, lets say when she is going to work, I tell her politely are you gonna come from work early today by any chance since it is Friday. She would get very uptight and serious even though I did not mean anything. She would say my job as important as yours so I have to make sure jobs get well done. Bla bla. Oh boy, I would better of not asking.

I want to offer lot of love, care, desire etc. and I did. But I feel like I got none, but some yelling, shouting, bitterness, illogical personal attack etc.

There is some resentment about me not being so friendly with some of her relatives., but I changed on that lately. What the heck, if she wants it, I will do it. I used not to because she does not do that for me.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

I am getting the picture. It is about money. You have no idea what happens to hers. Youre paying for everything and getting nothing in return. 

I cant see how things can improve.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PeaceTrain said:


> Yes, we both make similar amount. We could never agree on who spend on what. She thinks me being a man, I should take care off everything and not worry about her money. She tend to spend on the things that she needs to spend to perform her work. Each time we have conversation about this, it did not wend well.


This is baffling to me. You mean what's yours belongs to both of you, but what's hers belongs to her alone? How is that fair?

Controlling the purse strings and periodically threatening you with divorce spells emotional blackmail to me. She seems somehow invested in keeping you off balance, while protecting her own security.

Has she ever worked towards a real partnership with you?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Sounds like she is taking advantage of you. I don't want to jump to labels like narcissistic, but she certainly sounds entitled.


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

John Lee said:


> Sounds like she is taking advantage of you. I don't want to jump to labels like narcissistic, but she certainly sounds entitled.


I have analyzed the definition and characteristics of narcissistic and I find almost exact match. But the love I have for her making it harder to believe this.

I actually made a peace the other day with myself and decide not to split over finance. I will finance every single thing of this family and with that if I don't get the respect and support i deserve I have my answer.

Yes, it is unfair. Yes, I feel like I am used. Life is too short and as long as I don't spend more than I earn, I am ok. I want to be happy even I have to end up being poor. We were so happy when we had one job and was living paycheck to paycheck. 

It is so tough to handle 9 months of a year with anger, attitude and no talk or intimacy. I ave enough of those.

I have one of my friends passed away other day at the age 38. Sudden cardiac failure. He and his wife was running after career and chasing one job to another etc. They hardly had time for one another. It came to an end.

After doing for a long time, I realize I don't have stomach to handle this much bitterness. At the end of the day when I come home, I wanted to hear some good caring voice and support. I don't need nobody's attitude or money.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

''''''I actually made a peace the other day with myself and decide not to split over finance. I will finance every single thing of this family and with that if I don't get the respect and support i deserve I have my answer.''''''
I agree with your decision. I am sure it is the right one for you. But there is the problem that it may mean a quiet life for you for some time but it rarely lasts.
A person who is used to yelling will usually find something else to yell about. You cant really take every possible thing away.
It is really more important for you to learn how to answer her.


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## PeaceTrain (Jun 25, 2011)

accept1 said:


> ''''''I actually made a peace the other day with myself and decide not to split over finance. I will finance every single thing of this family and with that if I don't get the respect and support i deserve I have my answer.''''''
> I agree with your decision. I am sure it is the right one for you. But there is the problem that it may mean a quiet life for you for some time but it rarely lasts.
> A person who is used to yelling will usually find something else to yell about. You cant really take every possible thing away.
> It is really more important for you to learn how to answer her.


I understand. I tried to answer many ways. I will keep trying. In the mean time, I have to stop this grudge and anger over finance. I have to live with some dignity in this house.

I know she has grown to be a very manipulating person. She will say anything and everything to establish she is right. She will lie with me frequently in different matters and consistently utter she is very truthful and she hates lying. Now a days I stay quiet a lot and sometimes laugh inside watching her manipulation and circus.

I always wonder though, who does not like to have a good family life and a great partner who cares and desires you.

She can have one with just being nice to me, but she keeps living on the grudge and bitterness everyday. Does she have somebody else? If she did, how come we have so much good time when we do few days? Although they happen during those special day like motets day, birth day and I do lot of things to make them special.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

PeaceTrain said:


> I have analyzed the definition and characteristics of narcissistic and I find almost exact match. But the love I have for her making it harder to believe this.


Peace, after reading your posts, I'm inclined to agree with you that NPD likely doesn't explain all that you are describing. One reason is that a person having one PD (Personality Disorder) likely has one or two others as well. Hence, if your W has strong Narcissistic PD traits, she likely also has a co-occurring PD too.

A second reason is that full-blown narcissists are incapable of loving anyone. Instead, they generally regard other people as objects which are readily abandoned when they cease to be useful. I suspect that, if your W really is incapable of loving you, you would have realized that during the past ten years of your r/s and given up on her. This suggests, then, that you are seeing evidence of love (albeit very immature love) during the good times you speak of.

A third reason is that narcissists generally are very stable people. In contrast, you are describing an emotionally unstable woman who can be loving and caring one moment and then, in ten seconds, be hating you.

A fourth reason is that some of the behaviors you describe -- the temper tantrums, verbal abuse, lack of impulse control, vindictiveness, always being "The Victim," strong feeling of entitlement, and rapid flips between loving you and devaluing you -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline PD). This would not be surprising, if you're right about her having strong narcissistic traits, because 41% of female narcissists were found to also have full-blown BPD in a recent study. And about a third of the female BPDers were found to have full-blown narcissism. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.


> I have been walking on a egg shells for a long time.


That's the most common complaint given by the abused spouses of BPDers. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to those abused partners) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._


> She likes revenge and will bring back things from 16 years back.


My BPDer exW was the same way. BPDers have such a fragile, weak sense of who they are that they maintain a death grip on the self image they developed in early childhood: that of always being "The Victim." To continually reinforce and "validate" that false self image, a BPDer will only allow you to play one of two roles. 

One is "The Savior," a role you played full time during the courtship and only rarely after the wedding. Hence, the vast majority of the time you will be perceived as "The Perpetrator," the cause of her every misfortune. Because a BPDer needs continual "validation" of her victim status, she will maintain a list of all your infractions (real or imagined) going back for years. And she will pull out the ENTIRE list every time you have an argument, no matter how minor the issue. 

Not surprisingly, the infractions she will cite most frequently are those occurring at least ten years ago. Because neither of you can recall much of what was actually said that far back, she knows she is on safer ground using those old infractions because she can always claim you've forgotten what you did.

My exW, for example, frequently claimed I was making up a new lie every week. Yet, when I would ask her to cite on specific example, she always cited something I was supposed to have said 10 or 15 years earlier. Never mind that I allegedly had been fabricating lies at the rate of one/week.


> The disrespect I see for asking to share money for things we both agreed to buy almost makes me not want to ask her at all.


That behavior is to be expected if she has strong traits of narcissism or BPD. A BPDer, for example, typically has the emotional development of a four year old and thus feels "entitled" to everything you have. Moreover, like any young child, she will have one set of rules for herself and another set for everyone else. Moreover, both sets will change substantially every time her moods change.


> But what makes me not believe those is, we had great time when we do. But those are few and short.


If she has strong BPD traits, she will be wonderful during her good times (when she is splitting you white). It is because BPDers are so good during the good times that it is so difficult for the abused partners to leave. It is akin to walking away from a cocaine or heroine addiction.


> What actually trigger the bad episode is the tone, yell and shouting and name calling within 1 minute of a discussion.


If she is a BPDer, it likely is more accurate to say that her "bad episode" is ten seconds away, not a minute. The reason is that BPDers carry enormous amounts of anger and rage deep inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CAUSE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some minor thing that TRIGGERS a sudden release of anger that is always there. As you say, even your tone of voice (real or imagined) is insufficient.


> She will say anything and everything to establish she is right.


If she is a narcissist, she will refuse to admit a mistake because she is desperate to validate her false self image of being PERFECT. If she is a BPDer, she is loath to admit a mistake because of her need to validate her false self image of being THE VICTIM.


> I am planning on counseling.


My experience is that, when the spouse has strong traits of BPD or NPD, couples counseling likely will be a total waste of time -- because the issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. Going to an IC, however, would be prudent. Specifically, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your son are dealing with.

I also suggest that, while you're waiting for an appointment there in Minnesota, you read more about BPD and NPD to see if most warning signs sound very familiar. An easy place to start reading about the red flags for BPD is my description of them in Rebel's thread. It starts at Crazy I think but I love her anyway - LoveShack.org Community Forums. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you. Take care, Peace.


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