# marriage engineering



## asc7

What do you think about that? I think we should look marriage such a engineering process. We can have a better choices and joy from ours marriage. Are you any ideas about that?
How much time do you get to take a decision on the marriage?
What we can do for have a best options in ours life?


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## dormant

I hate to be blunt by asking this, but I you don't want to get married, what does it matter?


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## asc7

dormant said:


> I hate to be blunt by asking this, but I you don't want to get married, what does it matter?


I have a many studying about marriage and want share them. Do you have a problem with that? 
Also I shall marry in few years ahead.
Do you have a any other question?


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## Married but Happy

There are thousands (at least) of so-called experts on marriage who claim to have the answers. They may have some partial answers that work sometimes, but almost all of the ideas are based on medieval notions of marriage, cultural norms, and social conditioning. There is very little applied and tested science and a lot of bias. The present state of marriage "engineering" is roughly equivalent to the "science" of alchemy hundreds of years ago.

The best I can suggest is reading what science there is, particularly anthropology, psychology, and ideas contrary to mainstream ideas, then form your own opinions.


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## Almostrecovered

if marriage needs to be compared to engineering then two things I think should be planned


1) create a solid foundation

2) make sure all the inputs are easily accessible and open to when you want them


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## asc7

Married but Happy said:


> There are thousands (at least) of so-called experts on marriage who claim to have the answers. They may have some partial answers that work sometimes, but almost all of the ideas are based on medieval notions of marriage, cultural norms, and social conditioning. There is very little applied and tested science and a lot of bias. The present state of marriage "engineering" is roughly equivalent to the "science" of alchemy hundreds of years ago.
> 
> The best I can suggest is reading what science there is, particularly anthropology, psychology, and ideas contrary to mainstream ideas, then form your own opinions.


 Yours idea is great... I think psychology will works very good for this.


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## asc7

Almostrecovered said:


> if marriage needs to be compared to engineering then two things I think should be planned
> 
> 
> 1) create a solid foundation
> 
> 2) make sure all the inputs are easily accessible and open to when you want them


What about output?


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## Almostrecovered

to each their own


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## richardsharpe

Good afternoon asc7
I think one of the worst mistakes people make in marriage is to try to make it engineering. They have a list of requirements: appearance, social status, job, hobbies etc. Then when they find someone who meets that list they feel that they *should* marry them.

Often it works badly because there are intangible, difficult to measure or even describe things about marriage that are critically important. 

I'm not saying that one should ignore "requirements" completely, but I think that they are nowhere near the full story.


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## asc7

richardsharpe said:


> Good afternoon asc7
> I think one of the worst mistakes people make in marriage is to try to make it engineering. They have a list of requirements: appearance, social status, job, hobbies etc. Then when they find someone who meets that list they feel that they *should* marry them.
> 
> Often it works badly because there are intangible, difficult to measure or even describe things about marriage that are critically important.
> 
> I'm not saying that one should ignore "requirements" completely, but I think that they are nowhere near the full story.


:iagree::iagree:
I think we should consider only essential factors in marriage.


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## EleGirl

asc7 said:


> What do you think about that? I think we should look marriage such a engineering process. We can have a better choices and joy from ours marriage. Are you any ideas about that?
> How much time do you get to take a decision on the marriage?
> What we can do for have a best options in ours life?


Yea, it's a good idea. There is a good book that can be looked at as "marriage engineering".. "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". Check it out.


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## EleGirl

dormant said:


> I hate to be blunt by asking this, but I you don't want to get married, what does it matter?


He's a college kid. He does not want to get married NOW. He said that after graduating and getting a job he figure he will be ready to marry in about 5 years.


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## EleGirl

asc7 said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> I think we should consider only essential factors in marriage.


What do you consider essential factors in marriage?


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## asc7

EleGirl said:


> He's a college kid. He does not want to get married NOW. He said that after graduating and getting a job he figure he will be ready to marry in about 5 years.


Yes, I love you Elegirl You are so kind friend for me:yay::yay:


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## asc7

EleGirl said:


> What do you consider essential factors in marriage?


I think, both of them should have a same goals in life, should have a same joys and thoughts and etc. I think first we should have a good reason for our marriage. What do you think my friend?


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## EleGirl

asc7 said:


> I think, both of them should have a same goals in life, should have a same joys and thoughts and etc. I think first we should have a good reason for our marriage. What do you think my friend?


You are right about this. The problems in marriage often come over time very slowly. The couple starts out with the same goals, etc. But over time they get busy with life, work and the children And then their individual goals, view points, etc change.

If you are really interested in this topic, please read the books I suggested. I think that every young person should read those books before they get married.


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## asc7

EleGirl said:


> You are right about this. The problems in marriage often come over time very slowly. The couple starts out with the same goals, etc. But over time they get busy with life, work and the children And then their individual goals, view points, etc change.
> 
> If you are really interested in this topic, please read the books I suggested. I think that every young person should read those books before they get married.


OK, I think engineering means good construction for ours marriage. If we married with true and open mind, I think we won't have a problem at all. The problem is that we haven't care about importance of marriage and fail. I am study about that with many science theories...for example with thermodynamic theories.


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## EleGirl

asc7 said:


> OK, I think engineering means good construction for ours marriage. If we married with true and open mind, I think we won't have a problem at all. The problem is that we haven't care about importance of marriage and fail. I am study about that with many science theories...for example with thermodynamic theories.


Thermodynamics is about heat and temperature and their relation to energy and work. It's more about statistical analysis of a group of particles then about how an individual particles react to heat and temperature.

Particles do not have free will. Humans have free will.

If we heat water enough it will boil. The water cannot decide to not boil. Given water and the input of heat, the water will always boil.

Take a person and apply some kind of input and you cannot predict even most of the time how they will react and behave. One person has zero control over how another person thinks and choses to behave.


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## asc7

EleGirl said:


> Thermodynamics is about heat and temperature and their relation to energy and work. It's more about statistical analysis of a group of particles then about how an individual particles react to heat and temperature.
> 
> Particles do not have free will. Humans have free will.
> 
> If we heat water enough it will boil. The water cannot decide to not boil. Given water and the input of heat, the water will always boil.
> 
> Take a person and apply some kind of input and you cannot predict even most of the time how they will react and behave. One person has zero control over how another person thinks and choses to behave.


No, in the base of entropy every particle like disorderly. Also in the base of particles chemical reactions, two particle free there energy when they want combine with together. Also when they want segregation they absorb energy. I love thermodynamic because learn me how live and work etc. But I think you're right we should mostly work with statical analysis.:iagree:


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## EleGirl

asc7 said:


> No, in the base of entropy every particle like disorderly. Also in the base of particles chemical reactions, two particle free there energy when they want combine with together. Also when they want segregation they absorb energy. I love thermodynamic because learn me how live and work etc. But I think you're right we should mostly work with statical analysis.:iagree:


Yes, every particle is disorderly. But when combined as a group, such as a pot of water we can predict that 100% of the time the water will boil.

Not so with humans.


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## asc7

EleGirl said:


> Yes, every particle is disorderly. But when combined as a group, such as a pot of water we can predict that 100% of the time the water will boil.
> 
> Not so with humans.


No, if pressure change then we can't say that, I think we haven't 100% at all. what do you think my friend.


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## EleGirl

asc7 said:


> No, if pressure change then we can't say that, I think we haven't 100% at all. what do you think my friend.


The example I gave is if you are heating water in a kitchen in normal, ambient conditions.

There are a lot of things that can affect how water reacts to heat... pressure, salt in the water, etc. But if you take one set of variable/circumstances the water will always behave the same.

Science and engineering rely of the predictability given a set of values assigned to the variables.

But if you have a given set of input/variables and apply them to humans you cannot predict how each person will behave/react.


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## Davelli0331

I see this thread has gone somewhat afield.


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## EleGirl

Davelli0331 said:


> I see this thread has gone somewhat afield.


Not really, OP wants to apply engineering (and/or hard science) to marriage. A discussion about why that does not work makes sense.


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## Davelli0331

Ah. I thought he meant something more akin to social engineering, which I would think is a bit more fitting.

I'm a programmer so very familiar with the idea of pamaterized inputs yielding some kind of output in the form of a return value (or no output at all, sometimes). We label such functions as being either determinant or non-determinant. Determinant means that given the same parameters a function would return the same value, non-determinant meaning the opposite.

The problem with people is that they do not always behave in predictable and sometimes illogical ways, and would be I would say quite non-determinant in computer science terms. At the end of the day a human has a choice one way or the other and could simply choose the less logical path just because it seems fun, would make someone angry, or for any other number of likely unknowable variables.


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## asc7

EleGirl said:


> The example I gave is if you are heating water in a kitchen in normal, ambient conditions.
> 
> There are a lot of things that can affect how water reacts to heat... pressure, salt in the water, etc. But if you take one set of variable/circumstances the water will always behave the same.
> 
> Science and engineering rely of the predictability given a set of values assigned to the variables.
> 
> But if you have a given set of input/variables and apply them to humans you cannot predict how each person will behave/react.


In real we won't predict persons works, we want use engineering mind and manner to have a good marriage. You're right marriage is so complex but what we should do? I think we should utilize every science and manner that could help us. I think ours non-trust manner with together makes a more of ours problems. We need be a honest together before the marriage and speak about ours reality thoughts and manners and etc. We need be a trust and don't take a decision with heart instead of wisdom.


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## treyvion

asc7 said:


> In real we won't predict persons works, we want use engineering mind and manner to have a good marriage. You're right marriage is so complex but what we should do? I think we should utilize every science and manner that could help us. I think ours non-trust manner with together makes a more of ours problems. We need be a honest together before the marriage and speak about ours reality thoughts and manners and etc. We need be a trust and don't take a decision with heart instead of wisdom.


It helps if you understand the peson you are dealing with, their values, and the values of the ones they allow in their head.

People can still behave outside of what their norm should be, but I think it really helps your case if you find someone who tends to treat their friends well and not want to get over on them or abuse them. It also helps if their family stayed together or the families of most of their friends.


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## asc7

Davelli0331 said:


> Ah. I thought he meant something more akin to social engineering, which I would think is a bit more fitting.
> 
> I'm a programmer so very familiar with the idea of pamaterized inputs yielding some kind of output in the form of a return value (or no output at all, sometimes). We label such functions as being either determinant or non-determinant. Determinant means that given the same parameters a function would return the same value, non-determinant meaning the opposite.
> 
> The problem with people is that they do not always behave in predictable and sometimes illogical ways, and would be I would say quite non-determinant in computer science terms. At the end of the day a human has a choice one way or the other and could simply choose the less logical path just because it seems fun, would make someone angry, or for any other number of likely unknowable variables.


Yes, but I think for marriage we didn't need predict everything and analysis ours mate. We need one optimum and good selection that be a nearest to ours and in the future we haven't any problem. But after marriage ours technique will change so much. After marriage we need a another parameters
to have a best life with ours mate.


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## asc7

treyvion said:


> It helps if you understand the peson you are dealing with, their values, and the values of the ones they allow in their head.
> 
> People can still behave outside of what their norm should be, but I think it really helps your case if you find someone who tends to treat their friends well and not want to get over on them or abuse them. It also helps if their family stayed together or the families of most of their friends.


Yes, you mentioned good examples but we could identify ours mate in friendship, if we see the ours friendship as a step to marriage then we can have a good marriage.


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## bestyet2be

EleGirl said:


> Yea, it's a good idea. There is a good book that can be looked at as "marriage engineering".. "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". Check it out.


And of the various books I've read about relationships, marriage, and sex, my very favorite is Sills' _A Fine Romance_. Whenever I recommend a book or post a link to a story, I alway like to provide a quote, so here's some:To be single is to live life on an edge. To be married is to live life in a niche. It is not a trade-off. Married is better.

Married is not better for everyone or at every stage of life, but for most of us, through most of adulthood, the niche has it all over the edge.

The edge you teeter on when you are single is the edge of possibility and of discouragement. Socially, you are constantly looking , testing, measuring. When you meet someone who is available, the edge inside you sharpens. You experience tension, anxiety, uncertainty. Your possibilities seem so limited. When you are confronted with one, it's hard for you to enjoy it. You are too worried about blowing it.

The niche in which married people dwell is carved out by Commitment. Commitment deliberately rules out other possibilities. Your energy and attention are invested in one project--the creation of you marriage. If you project is going well, its byproduct will be contentment and peace of mind.

It's certainly a value judgment to rank life in the niche of Commitment over life on the edge of possibility. You may not agree. If the edge still seems exciting to you, if the concept of a comfortable niche strikes you as deadly bore or a psychological death, you will not appreciate marriage.

To be an independent functioning adult you must establish some sense of your own unique identity. Getting close always threatens that sense of self a bit. It's a real worry, even if it's an unconscious one. How can you remain yourself and still be close to someone? Will you be overwhelmed by him or her, will you have to give up some crucial part of you? Getting very close means submerging some parts of your personality that chafe against your partner. It means compromising in order to steer your life on a joint course. It means losing some freedom. Intimacy means obligation, whether it's the burden of making someone happy or of paying someone's bills.

Intimacy disturbs more than your sense of individuality. It also threatens to hurt your feelings, shake your security, or land a deadly blow to your self-image. Intimacy involves these risks for two reasons:

1) Your partner is a mirror. You have to see yourself in ways you would probably prefer not to.

Close relationships do not necessarily bring out our most attractive features. In the context of a developing courtship, you may be forced to notice that your are not as strong as you'd like to believe or as unselfish. You may discover that you are less rational than you'd prided yourself on being, or less confident. Intimacy forces you to confront the question, "Will I still love myself when I see myself through your eyes?" The answer is not a guaranteed yes.

2) You are totally vulnerable to your partner's assessment of you.

Having revealed yourself, you must confront the question of whether you are lovable. Could someone who is permitted to know you, love you? You can seduce people, con people, or charm people into loving you. You can package yourself in any set of pretenses in order to win love. But you cannot totally fool yourself into believing that you are loved. Only a genuinely intimate relationship can give you that feeling of acceptance. Of course, it's a risk, because you might not be as wonderful as your package suggests.​


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## SimplyAmorous

I'm printing that out bestyet2be ! Thank you for sharing that very insightful and beautiful part of this book..I just might buy that !!..

It says of the book:



> A Fine Romance: The Passage of Courtship from Meeting to Marriage: Books
> 
> Where is this thing called love? And how do you get there from here? For many it's an elusive goal that's over even before it has a chance to start -- but it doesn't have to be. In A FINE ROMANCE, nationally recognized psychologist Dr. Judith Sills shows how the whole agonizing and exhilarating process of love actually develops between two people -- and how the rules of successful courtship can be learned and mastered.
> 
> Dr. Sills covers all the skills you need to develop the right relationship in the areas of intimacy, compromise, and commitment. She also takes you step-by-step through the five stages of a relationship:
> 
> * *SELECTION* -- when you actively or passively choose a partner.
> 
> * *SEDUCTION* -- the dating days when you and your partner decide if the relationship is romantic, platonic, or dead.
> 
> * *SWITCH* -- that uncomfortable period when the pursuer backs off just as the partner responds.
> 
> ** NEGOTIATION* -- when you both acknowledge your differences and try to find a decent way to fight about them.
> 
> * *COMMITMENT* -- the negotiation to marriage.
> 
> There is no one right person. There is only your ability to give and receive love. This book will help lovers learn how to do just that.


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## bestyet2be

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm printing that out bestyet2be ! Thank you for sharing that very insightful and beautiful part of this book..I just might buy that !!..


Glad you enjoyed it! If you read it, I'd be interested to read if and specifically how you like it. It's not terribly long, but should you get bogged down, don't quit without reading the entire last chapter.

Although it's likely most useful to single people, I think it's written in such a way as to be interesting to a wide audience. I'm not surprised to read how very much many of the reviewers on Amazon also love this book.

I often (perhaps too often) try hard to figure out the underlying sense of things. I feel like if I can, then next time around I'll be more effective dealing with the particular situation -- with my work, my kids, my wife, my whatever -- and hopefully I'll be able do so less painfully, too. Often though I've reluctantly learned, there's no substitute for sloughing through each and every life problem, case by case, one at a time -- and painfully. (I think this book really does get to the root of certain things.)

Perhaps you're similar, especially with respect to trying to deduce the best kinds of guidance to give your kids. At least for that purpose, I'd recommend this book, along with her previous book with the lengthy title, "How to Stop Looking for Someone Perfect and Find Someone to Love."

But speaking only for myself: I discovered her books a long time ago, when they were just what I needed, and I feel that her words have lived with me ever since. I was then reading lots of dating books, and a few others were also good, but many were pretty useless.


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## SimplyAmorous

bestyet2be said:


> Glad you enjoyed it! If you read it, I'd be interested to read if and specifically how you like it. It's not terribly long, but should you get bogged down, don't quit without reading the entire last chapter.


 I put it on my wish list yesterday, it's available for a penny + $4 shipping..I need to do that ..... Problem with me is... I buy book after book after book & sometimes I get to them, sometimes I don't, I always have a couple in my car -when I need to "kill time" though..

If /when I get to reading...I will have to let you know!



> *I often (perhaps too often) try hard to figure out the underlying sense of things. I feel like if I can, then next time around I'll be more effective dealing with the particular situation -- with my work, my kids, my wife, my whatever* -- and hopefully I'll be able do so less painfully, too. Often though I've reluctantly learned, there's no substitute for sloughing through each and every life problem, case by case, one at a time -- and painfully. (I think this book really does get to the root of certain things.)


 What you said HERE is so ME...I really enjoy learning/ understanding the deep under workings of chemistry , attraction , infatuation vs something REAL & lasting.. our how temperaments play a role/ how compatibility can make such a difference in a relationship, how our self awareness to what we want & NEED in a relationship is paramount too..(not perfection but not missing or denying














either)..how a couple handles communication/ conflict will make or break them also...

So much.. so fascinating...so yeah..the inner workings of relationships, even if they haven't been my own personal experience...it's a great interest of mine.. just to give insight to others in my path... friends, our children... 

When I was a teen...I read books on dating/ waiting for the right man - stuff like that. 

I've given books on relationships to friends ....I tend to have the spirit of a







or something.... I love to see people fall in love ... but so often it derails ....we can learn AS MUCH to why this happens ...as to when it lasts...



> Perhaps you're similar, especially with respect to trying to deduce the best kinds of guidance to give your kids. At least for that purpose, I'd recommend this book, along with her previous book with the lengthy title, "How to Stop Looking for Someone Perfect and Find Someone to Love."


 :smthumbup: There is no perfect, I tried to touch on that in this thread..

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...t-but-beauty-can-found-our-imperfections.html


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## richardsharpe

Argh, the science, it burns, it burns :FIREdevil:

Way off topic, but sometimes energy is absorbed when atoms separate, sometimes it is released (explosives). 

I don't think applying science in other fields has much to say about human relations. 

asc - I'm not trying to pick on you, just discussing. :toast:




asc7 said:


> No, in the base of entropy every particle like disorderly. Also in the base of particles chemical reactions, two particle free there energy when they want combine with together. Also when they want segregation they absorb energy. I love thermodynamic because learn me how live and work etc. But I think you're right we should mostly work with statical analysis.:iagree:


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## capstone4019

On the contrary. There exists 'evidence-based' approaches that suggests the elements of sound marriages that provide the framework for long term success. If you're looking for something that's 100% foolproof it does not exist because this marriage thing is being carried out by fallible people. Principles work because they are principles, and they work if you work them. And by you I mean both parties.


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## bestyet2be

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm printing that out bestyet2be ! Thank you for sharing that very insightful and beautiful part of this book..I just might buy that !!..


I felt like posting some more quotes, here again I've done a bit of reordering:Some of our best, freest moments in life come when we are experiencing the temporary.... Temporary is not a period of time but a state of mind. Some couples are in "temporary" relationships for four and five years. There is always the thought, in the back of the mind, "This isn't serious. It'll last as long as medical school, as long as I'm getting my business off the ground, as long as it lasts." It's clear what serious means. It means permanent.

A major element in the fear of commitment is the awesome, inhibited feeling we get when we are confronted with the concept of permanency.

Permanent, above all else, is something we associate with growing up. Temporary is the wonderful, playful attitude of the adolescent. Permanent is what the adults do.

"I'm too young to die." None of the men or women I've worked with on the fear of commitment has ever said these words to me. But somehow I often hear them, lingering, unsaid, at the end of the conversation....

The agreement to marry is a death. It marks the end of one of the hallmarks of youth: the sense of limitless possibilities.

To be young is to be all potential. Depending of course on social class and situation, to be young is to feel an endless stretch of time and opportunity ahead of you. The process of becoming an adult is the process of choosing among all those possibilities and creating a life.

Marriage is one of the key choices. It is one of the events in our society that marks you as an adult. Yes, you can be an adult without being married. And yes, plenty of people marry without having done much growing up. Still the psychological meaning of Commitment holds true. It means letting go of your youthful fantasy that anything could occur.

Whether you are pressing for commitment or running from it, you are likely to make a mistake in your thinking. You are seeing marriage as an endpoint, rather than an opportunity to begin.

Both men and women react to marriage as if it were a static event.... What if I get married and it turns out to be a mistake? The misunderstanding is that marriage does not "turn out" to be a mistake. It's not a movie with a built-in finish. If your marriage is a mistake, it's because you let it develop that way. You are not a passive victim. You are in the active role of creating a new family. How well or poorly you do that task depends on you, not on "it."​And more good stuff. This book is written more for the single, than the married, but I pulled it out several months or a year ago, because some of what I was reading here on TAM had me sensing that some people had some really fundamental relationship problems, and I thought I might then comment a bit more intelligently.


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## Urope

I think trust is very important to marriage.


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