# Feedback



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

OK, this is going to be a nerd post. 
By "feedback" I mean the engineering concept where increasing A, causes an increase in B, which in turn increases B. "control theory" is the study of feedback (among other things), not "control" in a relationship sense. 

I've been thinking of a new description of the HD/LD situation in these terms. Just to make the language easier, I'll assume the more common LD woman and HD man, but of course it goes the other way too. 

Both enjoy sex some but it is more important to the man. Both enjoy romance, but it is more important to the woman. When there is lots of sex, the man feels more romantic and engages in more romantic actions. When there is lots of romance the woman feels more excited by sex and does it more often.


This can go two ways: if the "gain" > 1, then he acts more romantic, she wants more sex and there is a happy spiral upward to a more passionate marriage

If the gain is < 1, then he lets the romance slide a bit, she wants less sex, his interest in romance decreases further. Things spiral downward to a passionless marriage.

A small extra effort on either of their parts would cause the upward spiral.


This of course doesn't apply to all LD/HD relationships. There are also cases (like mine) where the LD has essentially no interest in sex at all, no matter what the situation, so there is no solution. I think that this is pretty uncommon.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

When the gain is > 1, she shorts out, and you can't get replacement parts any more.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Maybe, but for a while the sparks are flying. 

Of course if there is a time delay there will be oscillation. 



Married but Happy said:


> When the gain is > 1, she shorts out, and you can't get replacement parts any more.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Probably would work for a lot of people; especially younger people.

Won't work if the LD enjoys denying the HD sex. IOW, the sensation of power in controlling the sex, is more pleasurable and fulfilling than sex itself.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Probably would work for a lot of people; especially younger people.
> 
> Won't work if the LD enjoys denying the HD sex. IOW, the sensation of power in controlling the sex, is more pleasurable and fulfilling than sex itself.


What I don't get is why people feel the need to try to save marriages like that, or weirder still wanting to increase sex with that person. How about ceding all self esteem at the door in the name of getting laid. There is nothing loving about a person who seeks to control another person by any means.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Probably would work for a lot of people; especially younger people.
> 
> Won't work if the LD enjoys denying the HD sex. IOW, the sensation of power in controlling the sex, is more pleasurable and fulfilling than sex itself.


My experience exactly. LD women, at least in my experience, love to be able to withhold sex and therefore gain power over their husband. The power is better than sex to them.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> What I don't get is why people feel the need to try to save marriages like that, or weirder still wanting to increase sex with that person. How about ceding all self esteem at the door in the name of getting laid. There is nothing loving about a person who seeks to control another person by any means.


I agree with you.

But good old reality will intercede, and if it is not (currently) sane or feasible to leave the marriage; then the HD person is stuck.

Wanting to increase sex with that person??? At some point you want a man with an erection. It does affect self-esteem; but, at least for me the last couple of years----I could care less if wanting sex makes me look like I have low self-esteem.

No, it's not loving. But I still want sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I proposed a behavioral theory based on the twin pillars of LD, "stupid" and "evil". That is, ignorance vs intention. There's no real absolute on either side, and it's generally a mix of the two. When the mix is more towards ignorance, DIY books and such have a serious chance of working. As we move towards intention, things become more difficult to DIY, and if the majority of the cause is intention, good luck there.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I've been thinking of a new description of the HD/LD situation in these terms. Just to make the language easier, I'll assume the more common LD woman and HD man, but of course it goes the other way too.



I've been there done that! *Will not help*, but it may just be part of the process. This used to be my theory:

Assumes eating an apple = having sex. 

A = Likes to eat apples, and then this person is happy.
B = Wants to be happy, and finds eating an apple to be helpful.

So in working through this in my mind to determine a way to increase the frequency at which "apples" can be eaten, I started to realize:

A = Has no innate desire increase happiness.
B = Has no innate desire to eat apples.

Then I realized that if A) tries to get B) to eat too many apples too often, then B) will not like apples anymore and by consequence B) will no longer have a way to increase levels of happiness. Then A) becomes unable to eat apples as well. Everything turns to shît!

So in order for A) to get B) to eat apples again, A) must take all the focus off of apples and learn that in order for B) to be happy again and find it helpful to eat an apple, A) has to start eating this with B):





































and so on and *NEVER* mention the fact to B) that B) is actually learning to like eating THIS more often:










At the end this did NOT help, but I guess was a helpful part of the learning process for me. From where I stand today I think B) likes knowing where the apple came from, making the journey to the orchard, and eating it right off the tree in a very natural and fresh state. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Let me say to the HDs: now that I have turned the tables and renounced sex entirely, I am the one doing the turning down. And I must say the feeling of power and control is quite intoxicating. I agree with NS that there is nothing loving about it. But darn it feels so good. I can understand why many LDs enjoy the power and control more than sex. And I say that as someone who used to really really enjoy sex.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> Let me say to the HDs: now that I have turned the tables and renounced sex entirely, I am the one doing the turning down. And I must say the feeling of power and control is quite intoxicating. I agree with NS that there is nothing loving about it. But darn it feels so good. I can understand why many LDs enjoy the power and control more than sex. And I say that as someone who used to really really enjoy sex.


In other words instead of increasing the gain > 1, you pulled the fuse. Now she tries flipping switches, turing knobs and trying different outlets only for nothing to happen. 

That is what I used to do in a High School shop class during days when we had a substitute teacher. I wanted everything to be quiet so that I could read, and get my assignments done for my next class. So I pulled the fuses completely out of the power supplies and told no one. YES, it was very intoxicating to watch classmates insist they knew how to get things working, shove each other out of the way, call each other idiots, and only to see NOTHING work. OMG, I would do it again today in a heartbeat!

Badsanta


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Only in YOUR Garden of Eden, @badsanta, does this apple metaphor even begin to be comprehensible! Peach, anyone?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Only in YOUR Garden of Eden, @badsanta, does this apple metaphor even begin to be comprehensible! Peach, anyone?


That was exactly WHY I chose the apple. It is something we are taught NOT to eat metaphorically until AFTER you are married.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Let me say to the HDs: now that I have turned the tables and renounced sex entirely, I am the one doing the turning down. And I must say the feeling of power and control is quite intoxicating. I agree with NS that there is nothing loving about it. But darn it feels so good. I can understand why many LDs enjoy the power and control more than sex. And I say that as someone who used to really really enjoy sex.


What he said.

There's a secondary reason. They don't want sex too often because they may actually like it. Their partner may pick up the cues, then he will want more... Feedback loop galore.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

john117 said:


> There's a secondary reason. They don't want sex too often because they may actually like it. Their partner may pick up the cues, then he will want more... Feedback loop galore.


Not about HD wanting more. About LD fearing they themselves will want more and be unable to resist. Inability to resist means loss of power and control. So LD actively resists enjoying sex, so as to retain their power and control. HD vainly tries to make it "better" for LD but LD refuses to allow this. The problem is not that HD is incompetent. Problem is that LD values power and control above all. Above pleasure. Above happiness. Above love.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

From hell's heart I stab at thee......




Holdingontoit said:


> Let me say to the HDs: now that I have turned the tables and renounced sex entirely, I am the one doing the turning down. And I must say the feeling of power and control is quite intoxicating. I agree with NS that there is nothing loving about it. But darn it feels so good. I can understand why many LDs enjoy the power and control more than sex. And I say that as someone who used to really really enjoy sex.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> This of course doesn't apply to all LD/HD relationships. There are also cases (like mine) where the LD has essentially no interest in sex at all, no matter what the situation, so there is no solution. I think that this is pretty uncommon.


So in your case you have an LD that has no interest in sex at all, you must define that as a constant instead of a variable and THEN reverse engineer the relationship in you favor. 

First let us have a closer look at that constant of "no interest in sex." While it is very easy to define "no interest" it can be rather complicated to define the "sex" portion of that constant. What exactly is "sex" as it can refer to a great deal of arousing activities. So AH HA! We found at least one aspect of that constant that is subjective. 

When a man is teased, sex does not occur, but yet it is a very sexual experience that can actually be more stimulating that the act of sex itself. All men want what they can NOT have, and really wanting something can in itself be very satisfying as opposed to not caring about it. Hmmmmmmmm 

So talk to your LD wife and ask her to have a calm discussion with you about what aspects of sex she does NOT like as a way to make her define the subjective aspects of sex. Nudge her to be explicit with her descriptions. ...OK, now without even realizing it you have gotten her to talk dirty to you and begin teasing you!

If you can actually manage to get aroused in response to this conversation, this is where it gets good. Explain to your wife that her describing how she does not want to have sex with you has gotten you aroused and that she should stop feeling that way, as you are enjoying it too much. 

Your wife will suddenly realize that her attitude towards not wanting sex has aroused and stimulated you as if the two of you were having sex. Because she is not interested in sexually stimulating you, this will cause a paradox regarding her definition of sex. 

Now the next time she rejects you and indicates she does not want sex, politely ask her to stop because she now know that doing that turns you on, and politely insist YOU are not in the mood for sex. Tell her you only want what you can not have, and she needs to stop arousing you by telling you that you can not have her, as you start to enjoy that arousal too much.

DO NOT give her advice on how to NOT get you aroused. 

Obviously your wife will not want you to enjoy being sexually teased, and she will tone down her rejections towards you. Now her constant well be defined as her "not being interested in arousing you." Since you redefined rejection as a source of arousal, she will stop. 

Much like solving a rubik's cube, once you reach this state, you have essentially solved the first layer. Now you must begin to observe all the other pieces of your relationship, carefully spin things around to correctly position the other parts of your marriage and begin performing the needed algorithms to place each piece of the puzzle where you want it to go!

Good luck!

Badsanta


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Not about HD wanting more. About LD fearing they will want more and be unable to resist. Inability to resist means loss of power and control. So LD actively resists enjoying sex, so as to retain their power and control. HD vainly tries to make it "better" for LD but LD refuses to allow this. The problem is not that HD is incompetent. Problem is that LD values power and control above all. Above pleasure. Above happiness. Above love.


Agreed, you expanded on it quite eloquently. As things were beginning to get real bad with the missus I sensed this. I mean, dude, you're about to Oh one or two deep uns, and yer holding back? What the fruit?

And it's control not because of resentment or any unicorny reasons, but because control is too important to them.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It is possible you haven't encountered someone who is naturally LD. 

She is not interested in discussing sex. When asked she will not say that she doesn't like sex, but instead that she isn't interested *now* for some reason. "I'm too tired" is the standard, but its clear that the reasons are just a way of explaining her lack of interest. 





badsanta said:


> So in your case you have an LD that has no interest in sex at all, you must define that as a constant instead of a variable and THEN reverse engineer the relationship in you favor.
> 
> First let us have a closer look at that constant of "no interest in sex." While it is very easy to define "no interest" it can be rather complicated to define the "sex" portion of that constant. What exactly is "sex" as it can refer to a great deal of arousing activities. So AH HA! We found at least one aspect of that constant that is subjective.
> 
> ...


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Bad Santa for President!!!!!


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> Let me say to the HDs: now that I have turned the tables and renounced sex entirely, I am the one doing the turning down. And I must say the feeling of power and control is quite intoxicating. I agree with NS that there is nothing loving about it. But darn it feels so good. I can understand why many LDs enjoy the power and control more than sex. And I say that as someone who used to really really enjoy sex.




holding,

You are turning into an emotional ingrown toenail....there is always such a sense in your posts, that you used to be someone completely different; and now you're taking pleasure in what you yourself detest.

I don't judge you. I can sympathize with quite a bit of this. But, in the end, your very damaged and hurt wife will win. Her frigidity will have won out. And the fact that it resulted because of sexual assault makes it all the more sad. Is she who _she_ could have been sexually???

Who am I to say anything to you? No-one, I have my own set of problems, that's for sure. I think, though, I'd prefer to be pathetic and needy and sex-hungry, rather than die on the inside. Feeling horny does feel like being alive.

But we all do what is best for our own situation; and I do defer to you, in that you have been dealing with this for a very long time; not three or four years.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@notmyrealname4 - You are correct. I have become what I detest. But that just makes me detest myself more, feeds my self-loathing, and strengthens my desire to punish myself for being spineless. Closed loop self-reinforcing system. I have given up on trying to fight it, which was exhausting. Now I just ride the wave of self-loathing and make virtue of a necessity. I know, not absolutely necessary, but I am not willing to pay the price for freedom so here I sit.

And it is not my wife who wins, it is her attackers. They won. They treated her as an object, and now that is how she sees herself. I am just adding myself to their list of victims.

Again, this is why my wife and I are well matched. Neither of us is willing to do thee work to become better versions of ourselves. We deserve each other. Prevents a healthy person from being injured from interacting with us. Remember, if you stay married to someone who is damaged, you end up being just as damaged. Get them help or get yourself out. If you think you are the healthy spouse in your marriage, and you think your spouse is the only crazy one, that just means you are the one further into denial.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I think, though, I'd prefer to be pathetic and needy and sex-hungry, rather than die on the inside. Feeling horny does feel like being alive.


there are more than just these two options

when you can develop an ability to see through the desire, you realize how much the desire clouds the real sense of being alive

just like an addiction to the high of a drug can rob the ability to enjoy non-high times


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> It is possible you haven't encountered someone who is naturally LD.
> 
> She is not interested in discussing sex. When asked she will not say that she doesn't like sex, but instead that she isn't interested *now* for some reason. "I'm too tired" is the standard, but its clear that the reasons are just a way of explaining her lack of interest.


I would strongly advise you to perturb her excuses with counter-excuses!

I am tired = Well you lie there and I'll do all the work!

I am stressed = Well get naked and I'll give you a back rub!

I feel yucky = We can get a shower together and I'll wash you!

...and so on!

Badsanta


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

badsanta said:


> In other words instead of increasing the gain > 1, you pulled the fuse.


The mystery is that even if you replace the fuse, you are now RE-FUSED.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

badsanta said:


> I would strongly advise you to perturb her excuses with counter-excuses!
> 
> I am tired = Well you lie there and I'll do all the work!
> 
> ...


So, ultimately, you push them toward telling you the truth
"I find the idea of having your body anywhere near me repugnant".

At this point, what's your counter excuse?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Sawney Beane said:


> So, ultimately, you push them toward telling you the truth
> "I find the idea of having your body anywhere near me repugnant".
> 
> At this point, what's your counter excuse?


Smile really big and say, "well you married me, so this means you must have an uncontrollable fetish for all things repugnant!" 

@Sawney Beane *unless* the HD partner has completely let themselves go and has grossly neglected their personal hygiene the odd of this being the truth are extremely unlikely. The LD partner is more likely to feel repugnant towards themselves for feeling sexually inadequate and the notion of sex would be to allow herself to just be used. 

...so my counter excuse will work, get her to laugh, and continue peeling back the layers until hopefully arriving at the root cause which is her low self esteem.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> there are more than just these two options
> 
> when you can develop an ability to see through the desire, you realize how much the desire clouds the real sense of being alive
> 
> just like an addiction to the high of a drug can rob the ability to enjoy non-high times



Whoa! slow down there partner; I got rid of a whole drawer full of frilly knickers, scented sachets and thigh-high stockings (partly due to your influence).

Removing that little barb helped. Bittersweet to be sure.

But desire still feels good. Perhaps I'll have some insight at a later date and attempt to jettison desire too. But not yet.

We do have sex sometimes. I do have additional insights into what is going on in my husband's mind and body.

Wish me/us luck.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Some people do not want sex - with anyone, or want it only very rarely. There is nothing wrong with their partners, nothing that that can be changed. 

Since society tries to tell people that everyone wants sex under some conditions, these true LD people find themselves making up excuses (to themselves as well) to explain how they feel. In the end though its simple - they don't want sex. Whatever it is that most people have that makes them want sex, the true LD's don't have.

(assuming you are straight) Imagine you found yourself in a society where virtually all men engaged in casual homosexual activity. Then you try to explain why you aren't interested. Why even though a HJ or BJ from a man will give you an orgasm, you don't want that. 

You don't dislike these other men, some may be close friends, or roommates. Heck you'd run into a burning building to save some of them. They are athletic, and in an abstract sense physically attractive. 

there is noting wrong with what they want, and nothing wrong with you not wanting it. Its just that your interests don't match society's expectations.


(for someone who is bisexual, i don't know what analogy to use).








badsanta said:


> Smile really big and say, "well you married me, so this means you must have an uncontrollable fetish for all things repugnant!"
> 
> @Sawney Beane *unless* the HD partner has completely let themselves go and has grossly neglected their personal hygiene the odd of this being the truth are extremely unlikely. The LD partner is more likely to feel repugnant towards themselves for feeling sexually inadequate and the notion of sex would be to allow herself to just be used.
> 
> ...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Smile really big and say, "well you married me, so this means you must have an uncontrollable fetish for all things repugnant!"
> 
> @Sawney Beane *unless* the HD partner has completely let themselves go and has grossly neglected their personal hygiene the odd of this being the truth are extremely unlikely. The LD partner is more likely to feel repugnant towards themselves for feeling sexually inadequate and the notion of sex would be to allow herself to just be used.
> 
> ...


I like the first part of this a lot. 

Not sure I agree that the root cause is low self esteem, although that's probably case specific.

narcissism is more likely the root cause


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

For LD,s lying there and being fcked is not a good thing, its gross and degrading. (and starfish sex is not a good thing for HDs either).

Back rub is fine, sex is not.

Shower together is fine, sex is not. 

You are assuming that casual physical contact leads to physical arousal, but for natural LDs it doesn't, any more than a straight man would be aroused by a massage from a man.




badsanta said:


> I would strongly advise you to perturb her excuses with counter-excuses!
> 
> I am tired = Well you lie there and I'll do all the work!
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> For LD,s lying there and being fcked is not a good thing, its gross and degrading. (and starfish sex is not a good thing for HDs either).
> 
> Back rub is fine, sex is not.
> 
> ...


Your analogies of a heterosexual trapped in a homosexual relationship seem rather problematic. Generally speaking even when two heterosexuals marry, and then one undergoes a sex change, the other partner is usually supportive and faithful to the relationship (even though for them it would now have homosexual gestures). For this same reason when older women get cancer and often undergo mastectomies, and have short resulting hair from chemo, the male spouse will still find her very attractive even though most of his wife's feminine traits have been removed. 

OK, your going to argue that these are not examples of LD relationships. NO not the point, I'm just arguing that using the gesture of a heterosexual somehow being subjected to homosexuality by surprise after getting married is rather problematic for your illustrations.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Whoa! slow down there partner; I got rid of a whole drawer full of frilly knickers, scented sachets and thigh-high stockings (partly due to your influence).
> 
> Removing that little barb helped. Bittersweet to be sure.
> 
> ...


my point (and maybe this is just me) is--

when I am feeling "hard up," I have trouble focusing on anything but that.

meanwhile life is passing me by.

as I have gotten better at recognizing when this "hard up" feeling begins to creep into my brain, I have gotten better at being able to let it go

then I am better able to focus on all of the other amazing things that life has to offer me

I am frequently amazed at how satisfying the other routine things are and how little attention I had previously been paying to them

none of them replaces the other thing, of course, but the point is you don't have to allow that 1 thing to overshadow everything else


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

badsanta said:


> Smile really big and say, "well you married me, so this means you must have an uncontrollable fetish for all things repugnant!"
> 
> @Sawney Beane *unless* the HD partner has completely let themselves go and has grossly neglected their personal hygiene the odd of this being the truth are extremely unlikely. The LD partner is more likely to feel repugnant towards themselves for feeling sexually inadequate and the notion of sex would be to allow herself to just be used.
> 
> ...


 I disagree. I suspect the LD partner really _does_ feel that being hounded relentlessly for something they don't want *is* repugnant. The constant pursuit and what are to them entirely unfunny remarks are more likelyto create the impression not that you are funny, sexy and full of witty banter, but more that you are clingy and insecure (at best) or (more likely) sick and creepy.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Sawney Beane said:


> I disagree. I suspect the LD partner really _does_ feel that being hounded relentlessly for something they don't want *is* repugnant. The constant pursuit and what are to them entirely unfunny remarks are more likelyto create the impression not that you are funny, sexy and full of witty banter, but more that you are clingy and insecure (at best) or (more likely) sick and creepy.


In the case that the HD is *NOT* actually HD and they are indeed insecure and trying to force the LD partner to have sex as a means to reassure the HD partner that he/she is loved, then YES, you are correct. 

It is also common knowledge that more often than not it is actually the HD with all the personal issues for which they can not take personal responsibility and then try to find ways to accuse the LD partner of being inadequate medically or emotionally. 

So if this is the case the LD is NOT actually LD. It is a person's who has the correct instincts and is recognizing the he/she is dealing with someone that has a tendency to be sick and creepy. 

So this time I actually wholeheartedly agree with you!

Badsanta


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

badsanta said:


> In other words instead of increasing the gain > 1, you pulled the fuse. Now she tries flipping switches, turing knobs and trying different outlets only for nothing to happen.
> 
> That is what I used to do in a High School shop class during days when we had a substitute teacher. I wanted everything to be quiet so that I could read, and get my assignments done for my next class. So I pulled the fuses completely out of the power supplies and told no one. YES, it was very intoxicating to watch classmates insist they knew how to get things working, shove each other out of the way, call each other idiots, and only to see NOTHING work. OMG, I would do it again today in a heartbeat!
> 
> Badsanta


Obviously your classmates didn't know how to use a multimeter or they would have figured out that there was an open circuit.

I once took a test in RAID troubleshooting where I figured out in about 5 minutes that the firmware was corrupted, so I reloaded it and got the controller working. The instructor was flabbergasted, saying that no one had ever done that so quickly before. >


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

badsanta said:


> It is also common knowledge that more often than not it is actually the HD with all the personal issues for which they can not take personal responsibility and then try to find ways to accuse the LD partner of being inadequate medically or emotionally.
> 
> So if this is the case the LD is NOT actually LD. It is a person's who has the correct instincts and is recognizing the he/she is dealing with someone that has a tendency to be sick and creepy.


Agree big time. Difficult for some of us alleged HDs to realize we are the problem. Our insecurity. Our need for affirmation via sex. Our refusal to do the work to become attractive in reality while demanding our partners treat us as if we already have.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree with you in cases where things have changed. Sometimes though there never was any significant sexual attraction. The LD assumed this was normal and would decline further. The HD assumed that things would increase after they got married. 




badsanta said:


> Your analogies of a heterosexual trapped in a homosexual relationship seem rather problematic. Generally speaking even when two heterosexuals marry, and then one undergoes a sex change, the other partner is usually supportive and faithful to the relationship (even though for them it would now have homosexual gestures). For this same reason when older women get cancer and often undergo mastectomies, and have short resulting hair from chemo, the male spouse will still find her very attractive even though most of his wife's feminine traits have been removed.
> 
> OK, your going to argue that these are not examples of LD relationships. NO not the point, I'm just arguing that using the gesture of a heterosexual somehow being subjected to homosexuality by surprise after getting married is rather problematic for your illustrations.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I agree with you in cases where things have changed. Sometimes though there never was any significant sexual attraction. The LD assumed this was normal and would decline further. The HD assumed that things would increase after they got married.


back on the feedback concept---

if there were different expectations at the outset, even if slight, the reactions to these different expectations over time can create an additional dimension to the problem

for example, if the HD person takes rejection personally, then gets outwardly angry or withdraws, he will be less attractive to his partner.

so what originally started out as a mild case of mismatched desire can morph into the HD person becoming a less attractive individual in reaction to this


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I agree with you in cases where things have changed. Sometimes though there never was any significant sexual attraction. * The LD assumed this was normal and would decline further. The HD assumed that things would increase after they got married.*


If BOTH parties have unrealistic expectations, then YES it is very problematic. In this case BOTH need to educate themselves in order to understand what a realistic expectation should be and then lovingly work on doing what it takes to work towards that together.

A anecdote would be that every boy grows up wanting his wife to be a porn star, while every girl grows up wanting her husband to be prince charming:










So instead of increasing gain > 1, perhaps this situation would be better resolved by going back to the basics and applying some simple education to help everyone understand what is realistic. 

Badsanta


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I would strongly advise you to perturb her excuses with counter-excuses!
> 
> I am tired = Well you lie there and I'll do all the work!
> 
> ...


They don't work. The Uber LD simply refuses to play along for fear of escalation or for fear of future expectations.

I've been saying this all along. Hope springs eternal and such. 

The only solution i think is either heavy duty counseling or outright open hostility. There's no point acting coy kool cucumber. Tell her that your expectations are those of a roommate, vice versa, and leave it at that. 

Counseling may work and marital warfare will not work but you're getting her out of her comfort zone. 

And when the time comes you have your feelings in order and that's all she wrote. 

Years ago there was a strange concept floated around in psychology, that of "radical acceptance". Like... https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pieces-mind/201207/radical-acceptance

Not a bad idea if you're talking going bald or losing a finger to wildlife  but not quite the best approach for here either... If the LD partner gets what he/she wants from life there's no point improving or changing. 

By ACTIVELY denying them what they want then you balance things. If they love you or there are self preservation neurons still firing in them there's a good chance of getting things better. Otherwise...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> So, ultimately, you push them toward telling you the truth
> "I find the idea of having your body anywhere near me repugnant".
> 
> At this point, what's your counter excuse?


A self respecting LD partner will never tell you the truth. It's a given.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I like the first part of this a lot.
> 
> Not sure I agree that the root cause is low self esteem, although that's probably case specific.
> 
> *narcissism* is more likely the root cause





Anon1111 said:


> as I have gotten better at recognizing when this "hard up" feeling begins to *creep into my brain*, I have gotten better at being able to let it go



Offshoot here; this is interesting---how is an LD person narcissistic (possibly)? What do you think supports that idea?



My hard up feeling creeps into other places than my brain; and it's hard to "think away" being physically aroused. But I'm not a Zen master either


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Offshoot here; this is interesting---how is an LD person narcissistic (possibly)? What do you think supports that idea?


not an expert (obviously) and I don't think there's just one category of LD. I also think most LD is just LD for the other person and would disappear once the relationship ended.

with that said, in the longer term HD/LD relationships, some of the following may overlap with narcissistic tendencies:

-difficulty with empathy
-hypersensitivity to criticism
-using your partner as a means to an end
-feelings of superiority



notmyrealname4 said:


> My hard up feeling creeps into other places than my brain; and it's hard to "think away" being physically aroused. But I'm not a Zen master either


my take is that the physical part is like an itch. 

imagine you had a cast on your arm and you had a crazy itch going on underneath. what could you do? you'd just have to deal with it. eventually it would pass.

there's no way around the fact that it kind of sucks, but it's not the end of the world. 

obviously, if you don't need to wear the cast, you can cut it off and itch to your heart's content. :smile2:


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If you're not getting the feedback you expect from stimulating the sexual circuitry, one of you is broken (or badly mismatched: one is 12 volt, and the other 110 volt). It doesn't matter which one - replace the component and try again. If it was her, you're better off with a new mate, at least for a while. If it was you, your ex is better off without you. Either way, win-win! You both get to try again. You may eventually learn the problem is you, and work to fix it. IMO, it is always best to replace a non-functional component (whether real, or perceived) if you can't fix it in a reasonable timeframe. Staying is almost always lose-lose.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I also think *most LD is just LD for the other person and would disappear once the relationship ended.*







> my take is that the physical part is like an itch.
> 
> imagine you had a cast on your arm and you had a crazy itch going on underneath. what could you do? you'd just have to deal with it. eventually it would pass.
> 
> ...




I don't think this technique would work for me. I'll use your quote as a template:



imagine you had a *{husband with very little remaining interest in sex, along with ED}* and you had a *{desire to have sex with him about 3x week}*going on *{that he knows about}*. what could you do? you'd just have to deal with it. eventually it would pass *{for about a week, until it comes back again full force}*.

there's no way around the fact that it kind of sucks, but it's not the end of the *{marriage, but the end of a big part of it}*. 

obviously, if you don't need to *{be married to the husband with little remaining sexual desire and ED}*, you can *{divorce him}* and*{have sex with other people}* to your heart's content. 



Of course, I may have misunderstood the analogy. I'm not the slightest bit interested in divorce or extra-marital activities.

Masturbation makes it worse. Yes, there is release of physical tension, and body pleasure. But emotionally it is a horrible, empty void.

But thanks for offering the advice and being helpful.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

why is divorce not an option for you?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> why is divorce not an option for you?


I love him very much.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, this is key. It is possible to love someone even if you don't have an acceptable sex life. The lack of sex is frustrating, irritating but it doesn't always change the love. 

The problem though is that the lack of sex is a slow poison to the love. Its so difficult to get past the idea of how wonderful things would be if only the would do this small thing for you. Of course to them it is not a "small thing", what you want is something that they simply cannot provide. 

So you can abandon the person you love and try to find love and sex elsewhere, or you can try to numb yourself to the lack of sex and try to concentrate on the love. 




notmyrealname4 said:


> I love him very much.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I love him very much.


sometimes that's not enough


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

uhtred said:


> So you can abandon the person you love and try to find love and sex elsewhere, or you can try to numb yourself to the lack of sex and try to concentrate on the love.


abandon is the wrong word, I think.

the marriage is already over by the time you get to this point.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I love him very much.


You've heard the expression, "Love is not enough"? Love may sustain you for a while, and if you both feel the same, perhaps for longer than you'd expect. However, I agree with the expression. It may not have been intended to refer to sex, but I think it's completely applicable. So, "Love is not enough. You need sex too," is my view.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I love him very much.





Anon1111 said:


> sometimes that's not enough





Married but Happy said:


> You've heard the expression, "Love is not enough"? Love may sustain you for a while, and if you both feel the same, perhaps for longer than you'd expect. However, I agree with the expression. It may not have been intended to refer to sex, but I think it's completely applicable. So, "Love is not enough. You need sex too," is my view.



I thought this over the past day. And, for me, at least right now, and I would guess well into the future: love is enough, or love is the much stronger influence.

I really do appreciate the input and feedback. And for those of you for whom, eventually, love was not enough; no judgement here. We all do what we think is best for our own situations.

Which reduces me to a complainer, not a doer; I guess. I did end up at TAM investigating what was going on in my marriage; because it's only been the last few years that it's been like this.

I can ask my husband for sex. And about 65-70% (?) of the time, he'll give me some kind of sex. Not so much PIV anymore; but that isn't deliberate on his part.

He can't give me a lot of sexual desire. I've always been very insecure about this anyway; so the current situation is resurfacing old wounds. Isn't it weird how nothing ever really goes away.

But he does give me love. And I do love him. So, yes, for me (us); that is enough.

Sorry, @uhtred , I didn't mean to take over your thread. But it helps to type these things out. It brings relief, and makes me consider them more thoroughly.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> He can't give me a lot of sexual desire. I've always been very insecure about this anyway; so the current situation is resurfacing old wounds. Isn't it weird how nothing ever really goes away.


I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, but my philosophical belief is that even death will not make things go away.

That is, whatever you don't deal with in this life will come back to haunt you in the next one.

So the only real solution is to dig in and get it really solved, not just papered over, so you don't have to deal with it for the rest of eternity.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

tech-novelist said:


> That is, whatever you don't deal with in this life will come back to haunt you in the next one.
> 
> So the only real solution is to dig in and get it really solved, not just papered over, so you don't have to deal with it for the rest of eternity.




Is this a Hindu type of thing; like reincarnation?

I don't believe in reincarnation (I have tried to, when I studied astrology seriously---I just can't make the leap of faith to believe in it)

I do believe in an afterlife and eternity; but I don't think my insecurities over my desirability to my husband will follow me there. I think of death as a release from the physical part of life.

But thanks for reaching out to me.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

uhtred said:


> OK, this is going to be a nerd post.
> By "feedback" I mean the engineering concept where increasing A, causes an increase in B, which in turn increases B. "control theory" is the study of feedback (among other things), not "control" in a relationship sense.
> 
> I've been thinking of a new description of the HD/LD situation in these terms. Just to make the language easier, I'll assume the more common LD woman and HD man, but of course it goes the other way too.
> ...


Unfortunately, the human being is the only known nonlinear positive feedback system in nature. If a woman sees more romance from the man, she may initially be more willing to engage sexually, but if it becomes clear that his purpose is more sex, then she sees it as manipulation and shies away, until her output stage is bouncing off the top power supply rail.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Is this a Hindu type of thing; like reincarnation?
> 
> I don't believe in reincarnation (I have tried to, when I studied astrology seriously---I just can't make the leap of faith to believe in it)
> 
> ...


It's not Hindu, more like Buddhist, but not that exactly either.

But some of my life experience, together with a lot of study on such matters, tells me that it is very unlikely that my death is the end of everything for me. And the most intellectually and emotionally satisfying analysis that I have been able to come up with suggests that the scales always balance in the end. This means that I might as well do the work now to make things right, as I'll suffer for it later if I don't.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

DustyDog said:


> Unfortunately, the human being is the only known nonlinear positive feedback system in nature.


You forgot supernovas.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> You forgot supernovas.


Nope. They're positive feedback, certainly, but they are not nonlinear. They are chaotic, but that's not the same as nonlinear.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

DustyDog said:


> Nope. They're positive feedback, certainly, but they are not nonlinear. They are chaotic, but that's not the same as nonlinear.


Ok, if you say so. I'm surprised, though, because I would imagine that there must be some relativistic events in a supernova, which I don't think would be linear...

But this is outside my area of expertise, so I may be all wet.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

They seem pretty nonlinear to me. Nonlinear gravity at the center, with either a neutron star (nonlinear mechanical properties) or a black hole. Nonlinear plasma dynamics, including temperatures hot enough to pair create out of the vacuum. 





DustyDog said:


> Nope. They're positive feedback, certainly, but they are not nonlinear. They are chaotic, but that's not the same as nonlinear.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Certainly not a thread-jack. Its all the same topic under different names - trying to understand the dynamics in sexually mismatched relationships. 

You are correct that in general LDs cannot provide sexual desire, which is really what many HDs want. 

Insecurity coupled with a LD partner is really miserable - no matter how much you think about it rationally, you always wonder if you *are* doing something wrong, if it *is* your fault. 

I think the key is to be sure that love is enough for you. Believe me, as time goes on it becomes more difficult to leave: "What, we've been together for X years and you are leaving *NOW*???"

My guess is that you would actually be happier with someone who did provide the passion that you want. Still, I'm in no position to tell someone else that they should leave since I didn't. 






notmyrealname4 said:


> I thought this over the past day. And, for me, at least right now, and I would guess well into the future: love is enough, or love is the much stronger influence.
> 
> I really do appreciate the input and feedback. And for those of you for whom, eventually, love was not enough; no judgement here. We all do what we think is best for our own situations.
> 
> ...


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> When the gain is > 1, she shorts out, and you can't get replacement parts any more.


Only if the gain is over one after the phase inverts 180°.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I thought this over the past day. And, for me, at least right now, and I would guess well into the future: love is enough, or love is the much stronger influence.


every individual case is unique in some respects, but there have been a few studies of long term sexless marriages and, typically, the only HD people that are happy long term are the ones who leave and find someone more compatible.

It's likely that this feeling will never go away unless you split.

I think if you're determined not to split, you need to realistically contend with this.



notmyrealname4 said:


> I really do appreciate the input and feedback. And for those of you for whom, eventually, love was not enough; no judgement here. We all do what we think is best for our own situations.


it's really not about winning. it's about what is best for you and the people you care about.

it can't be all about you, but it can't be all about them either.



notmyrealname4 said:


> Which reduces me to a complainer, not a doer; I guess. I did end up at TAM investigating what was going on in my marriage; because it's only been the last few years that it's been like this.


you are always only a "doer." You're actively choosing to remain there every day. 



notmyrealname4 said:


> I can ask my husband for sex. And about 65-70% (?) of the time, he'll give me some kind of sex. Not so much PIV anymore; but that isn't deliberate on his part.
> 
> He can't give me a lot of sexual desire. I've always been very insecure about this anyway; so the current situation is resurfacing old wounds. Isn't it weird how nothing ever really goes away.


it can go away if you choose to make it go away. 

another way of looking at it is you are choosing to perpetuate it.

For you to actively choose to have this, there must be something very worthwhile about it.

I wonder if re-framing this situation as something you are actively choosing day by day actually would cause a re-assessment.



notmyrealname4 said:


> But he does give me love. And I do love him. So, yes, for me (us); that is enough.


that is cool if true. if that is the case, I'd say you probably need to work on letting go of your desire as best you can.


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