# Pregnancy and evening out the parental sacrifice



## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

We have a day-time nanny for our two kids (normally, we probably would have eased her to part-time or stopped - but she's been a part of the family for 11 years and I wanted her to stay for stability purposes after our separation).

Our nanny is very much a part of the family. She knows most of the story and is very upset about our separation - very close with my wife - but very disappointed and angry at her too. She is a mother herself and cannot believe my stbxw had an affair.

Anyway, last week for some reason she was talking about the time after our second daughter was born. My stbxw and I had briefly entertained having a third - but decided two was perfect. So then the question came up about me getting a vasectomy. Now my Dad had a vasectomy (long time ago, when they did it with a dull meat cleaver  ) and my brother had one (with complications - took him a year to recover). But I had no problem with this, so I went to see my Doctor (now retired). His first question was "How old is your wife?". At the time, my wife was 42 and on the pill. Without hesitating he said "Don't bother, your wife will be menopausal soon". 

So I told my wife this, and with images of my brother's botched V in mind, I decided to wait it out. Meanwhile, my wife went off the pill (she was getting dark spots on her face in reaction to the pill). We started using condoms. And about 2 years later, my wife started to get pre-menopausal symptoms. So I never bothered with the V.

Anyway, our nanny confided that my wife had once said to her that "She wanted me to get a V because she wanted me to suffer a little like she did by being pregnant". And apparently she was not joking. An odd comment but very much like my wife.

So my "refusal" to get a V, added to my stbxw's resentment of me and added to our marital difficulties. Just one more resentment I was clueless about!

Anyway, my question to BS and WS with kids - did you ever feel like it was necessary to "even the score" after pregnancy? In my clueless way - I thought having kids was all good - didn't realize we needed to "even the score".

PS - glad we switched to condoms because my wife ended up having an affair and at some point got an infection of some kind. Before we separated I was beginning to wonder if she has herpes.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> We have a day-time nanny for our two kids (normally, we probably would have eased her to part-time or stopped - but she's been a part of the family for 11 years and I wanted her to stay for stability purposes after our separation).
> 
> Our nanny is very much a part of the family. She knows most of the story and is very upset about our separation - very close with my wife - but very disappointed and angry at her too. She is a mother herself and cannot believe my stbxw had an affair.
> 
> ...


Jesus, what a swine. She's essentially equating carrying your children, the people whom you love most in the world, to suffering the recovery of a vasectomy. Does she even like your kids? I only ask because this is a pretty monstrous thing to say. It'd be bad enough if she had said she wanted you to feel the pain just because she didn't like you, but to bring your kids into the bargain is pretty bent.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> Jesus, what a swine. She's essentially equating carrying your children, the people whom you love most in the world, to suffering the recovery of a vasectomy. Does she even like your kids? I only ask because this is a pretty monstrous thing to say. It'd be bad enough if she had said she wanted you to feel the pain just because she didn't like you, but to bring your kids into the bargain is pretty bent.


She said this BEFORE she didn't like me.  She seriously thought that I should get a vasectomy as some demonstration that I appreciated her labour. I was sincerely prepared to get one too, but my doctor said it was stupid because of my stbxw's age. And my brother had a disastrous V - with swelling, and nodules. So I chickened out.

As for liking our kids: She "loves" our kids. But she hates being a mother. Try to figure that one out...


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Every time you bring up another story of your stbxw it makes my blood boil. The best way to forget about this crap is to go out this weekend find a hottie and well you know...


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

We have 2 kids. DD wanted to get the V right after our second was born, I wanted to wait since I wasn't 100% sure I felt done having kids. I got an IUD instead. 

It wouldn't even occur to me to equate pregnancy/delivery with a vasectomy. While there were definitely uncomfortable aspects with having kids, being pregnant and giving birth were absolutely amazing and nothing I suffered through. My deliveries were easy though, and I had epidurals, so that helped. I really loved the experience, and I actually considered being a surrogate for a while when my best friend was having fertility problems. I wouldn't think to have DD go through a V to "even things up." 

I think this is just yet another example of your wife's selfishness, as is her loving the kids but not liking being a mother. Aunts get to do that -enjoy some fun, then leave. Mothers don't. I'm sorry, Cedarman.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> She seriously thought that I should get a vasectomy as some demonstration that I appreciated her labour.


Er, I've been around plenty of pregnant women and, given what you've told me of your wife, she must of been a nightmare when she was pregnant. If you were able to deal with that, more than once, then I think you've paid your dues. In fact, it probably qualifies you to be an exorcist.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Anyway, our nanny confided that my wife had once said to her that "She wanted me to get a V because she wanted me to suffer a little like she did by being pregnant". And apparently she was not joking. An odd comment but very much like my wife.


Good grief. That's messed up. If I marry someone else, I might want more kids but if we don't have them, I'd hope he got a vasectomy because I have really bad side-effects to hormonal birth control - not because he could _see how this feels_. 




Cedarman said:


> Anyway, my question to BS and WS with kids - did you ever feel like it was necessary to "even the score" after pregnancy? In my clueless way - I thought having kids was all good - didn't realize we needed to "even the score".


Not at all. Having kids was both of our decision. I also loved being pregnant even when I was covered neck to toe in a pregnancy rash. There is something magical about having a life inside you. Giving birth, while painful as hell is also a special experience and while I don't like the pain, I don't feel like I "suffered" - I feel blessed to be able to carry and bring a life into this world.

Your wife is nuts.

ETA: Nuts - no pun intended. Ha ha.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> Er, I've been around plenty of pregnant women and, given what you've told me of your wife, she must of been a nightmare when she was pregnant. If you were able to deal with that, more than once, then I think you've paid your dues. In fact, it probably qualifies you to be an exorcist.


One was enough for me oohh when those hormones go haywire,watch out!:rofl:


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> Er, I've been around plenty of pregnant women and, given what you've told me of your wife, she must of been a nightmare when she was pregnant. If you were able to deal with that, more than once, then I think you've paid your dues. In fact, it probably qualifies you to be an exorcist.



She was actually amazing during pregnancy. Had PP after our first though and was very stressed. Fine with our second. Note: 1st daughter, epidural only took on one side. Second daughter - came so quickly she literally almost gave birth in the elevator - so no epidural here either. No, she was a trooper. And very loving and attentive until the kids were off breastfeeding. 

But the stuff about the V for me IS messed up. I was prepared to get one, but my doctor talked me out of it. 

My wife's mind has many on and off switches. She turned off her "love my hubby" switch. And she flicks her "mother" switch on and off according to her schedule. Sometimes I envy her inhuman like way she can compartmentalize stuff. Must be nice to have no conscience or guilt...


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I had some thoughts to write, but in the end...what your wife said....that's just wacked....no comment I guess.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> She was actually amazing during pregnancy. Had PP after our first though and was very stressed. Fine with our second. Note: 1st daughter, epidural only took on one side. Second daughter - came so quickly she literally almost gave birth in the elevator - so no epidural here either. No, she was a trooper. And very loving and attentive until the kids were off breastfeeding.
> 
> But the stuff about the V for me IS messed up. I was prepared to get one, but my doctor talked me out of it.
> 
> My wife's mind has many on and off switches. She turned off her "love my hubby" switch. And she flicks her "mother" switch on and off according to her schedule. Sometimes I envy her inhuman like way she can compartmentalize stuff. Must be nice to have no conscience or guilt...


I get the sense, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that your wife is very fickle emotionally. It seems to me that she's fine with emotional intimacy so long as it's entirely on her terms and it's all about her. I base that on the comment you made about your wife being attentive until your children were weaned. This, to me, says that the nursing was all about her fulfilling an action that she considers, or believes others would consider, laudatory, coupled with not having to be concerned with the feelings of another human being. Naturally, I could totally be wrong. Was she one of those women that was open, even brazen, and overtly proud about breastfeeding, even in public?


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> I get the sense, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that your wife is very fickle emotionally. It seems to me that she's fine with emotional intimacy so long as it's entirely on her terms and it's all about her. I base that on the comment you made about your wife being attentive until your children were weaned. This, to me, says that the nursing was all about her fulfilling an action that she considers, or believes others would consider, laudatory, coupled with not having to be concerned with the feelings of another human being. Naturally, I could totally be wrong. Was she one of those women that was open, even brazen, and overtly proud about breastfeeding, even in public?



My wife IS very fickle emotionally. Hot and cold. And when she goes cold, there is no going back. That's why I know we won't reconcile, even if I wanted to. It's why our false R never worked.

And right on about emotional intimacy being on her terms. It was always all about how SHE felt.

She was always a private breastfeeder. But breastfed both girls until about 14 months. She loved it (so did the kids). I liked it too, in all honesty. The girls always looked so cute and secure when they were breastfeeding. Then my wife or I would burp them and they'd fall asleep on our shoulders. Magical. But when the kids were too old to be breastfed, it's almost like my stbxw said "well, my job is done".

And you're right on about her wanting to "appear" as a Super Mom. Eg - she skipped our daughter's birthday party last month (lied about being sick - but went out clubbing). BUT, she wanted to come by when the other kids were being dropped off on Saturday and offered to come back the next morning when the kids were picked up. I told her not to bother (because I could see right through her - she just wanted to be around when the other parents came by). Even still, parents who sent a "thank you" email to both of us would get a response from my stbxw "it was a pleasure having your daughter over for the party. The kids had a great time". ... and she wasn't even there except to drop off the cake and lie to our daughter!


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## Louise7 (Nov 8, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> We have a day-time nanny for our two kids (normally, we probably would have eased her to part-time or stopped - but she's been a part of the family for 11 years and I wanted her to stay for stability purposes after our separation).
> 
> Our nanny is very much a part of the family. She knows most of the story and is very upset about our separation - very close with my wife - but very disappointed and angry at her too. She is a mother herself and cannot believe my stbxw had an affair.
> 
> ...


Here's the thing...

My ex and I have two beautiful beings - bright, beautiful, intelligent wonderful people. I got pregnant with number 3 despite out best efforts with birth control. We were so fertile this man only had to drop his trousers and smile at me and I was pregnant... So anyway, the ex wasn't pleased about number 3, so much so that he insisted I abort it. He said he would always resent 'it' and couldn't love another child. So you can all shout at me, but I did it - had the abortion. The anaesthetic didn't work and I was aware of every painful second of it. Karma eh?

Fast forward a bit and the ex decides he's going to have the big V. A few months later, I develop the most awful gynae problems and I am told it is vital I have an urgent hysterectomy. I used our private medical insurance (not the NHS) so that I got it done quick. Just as well I did because I had a nasty tumour. They let me out of hospital three days after surgery on condition that there was someone at home to look after me. The ex told the doc he would be there for a week. The day after I came homehe left me with a flask of coffee and went to work. He did that for the rest of the entire week, leaving me to work out how to get the kids to and from school and to crawl out of bed and feed them when they were home.

When I went to my 6 week check up, the doc says I have not yet healed and I must wait another couple of weeks to have sex. Himself was really not pleased, started thumping his fist on the table and asking precisely how long he was going to have to wait...

He was furious that he had 'gone to the bother' of a V, only for me to have my uterus ripped out 3 months later. Like I planned this??? 

And the icing on the cake was he bleated that he had to pay for the private abortion because I had insisted on doing it before 8 weeks and the NHS waiting list was 12 weeks.

All of this is 12 years ago and it haunts me like it was yesterday.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Note: 1st daughter, epidural only took on one side. Second daughter - came so quickly she literally almost gave birth in the elevator - so no epidural here either.


That was my exact birth experience with my boys.

@Louise - so sorry to hear about that experience. It sounds horrible. Your ex sounds just as insensitive as mine would be if in that situation together.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Louise7 - your husband sounds like a real piece of work. Selfish [email protected] Hope you're able to get past it some day.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

Cedarman said:


> that "She wanted me to get a V because she wanted me to suffer a little like she did by being pregnant". And apparently she was not joking.
> Just one more resentment I was clueless about!
> 
> Anyway, my question to BS and WS with kids - did you ever feel like it was necessary to "even the score" after pregnancy? In my clueless way - I thought having kids was all good - didn't realize we needed to "even the score".


what EVEN the score... like a little nip and a stitch will EVER make you feel like what its like to have a baby ....

HA HA HA HA !!!! i laugh at this idea :lol::lol::lol:

sometimes you wish they could feel like what its like, the pain, how hard it is to lose weight, how much pain you're in, what its like to have no sleep...

but a V will never come close and its not about getting revenge, i am sure you both decided to have kids... and ive had 4 so to go back and do it all again after the first .... lots and lots of women do it everyday.

i think she just was angry with you even then about whatever she believes you did or for whatever reason.

i wish for one day men knew what we went through as women but its not going to happen

.... most of you wouldnt handle one day of it anyway ... ha ha ha ( im laughing ):rofl:


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

goodwife4 said:


> what EVEN the score... like a little nip and a stitch will EVER make you feel like what its like to have a baby ....
> 
> HA HA HA HA !!!! i laugh at this idea :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> ...


 um.... yeah....hilarious... 

Cedarman... your wife is a sociopath. End of story. Be glad you're getting rid of her.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> um.... yeah....hilarious...
> 
> Cedarman... your wife is a sociopath. End of story. Be glad you're getting rid of her.


True and true. Something has snapped inside of her and nobdoy can fix it, maybe except for herself.



goodwife4 said:


> what EVEN the score... like a little nip and a stitch will EVER make you feel like what its like to have a baby ....
> 
> HA HA HA HA !!!! i laugh at this idea :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> ...


*INTERESTING FACT:* Pain is measured in units known as del. The human body can withstand about 45 del before it becomes unbearable. Giving birth is 57 del. Pretty bad, right? But, getting hit in the testicles can range from 400 to 9000 del which is something like the equivalent of giving birth about 160 times or breaking about 20 bones at a time. Now, next time you plan to act so ignorant, keep in mind how much more getting hit in the balls hurts.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

I know some people have said that passing a kidney stone is close to the pain of giving birth.

My sister, 5'1", gave birth to a 10 pound baby without anaesthetic.

Later in life, she had a kidney stone. She said the kidney stone was close, but not as bad as labour. 

I'll take her word for it.


Anyway, the point for my stbxw was not to even the score - it seemed to be more about making sure that I was willing show her I was willing to sacrifice something. I had no idea it was THAT important to her that she would make such a caustic comment. And she never told me. I just followed my doctor's advice (of course he was old and quite old fashioned in his viewpoints) - although admittedly, I didn't want to get one - after seeing what my brother went through.

ETA - given what's happened to my marriage - I'm kind of thankful since it leaves options open should I meet somebody new, who is young enough to still want kids.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Anyway, *the point for my stbxw was not to even the score - it seemed to be more about making sure that I was willing show her I was willing to sacrifice something. *I had no idea it was THAT important to her that she would make such a caustic comment. And she never told me.


Gunnysacking, it's what she was doing. Some people simply have a mental black notebook in which they take account of all their "sacrifices" (actualy personal choices, wich implies they choose the reward) expecting the others payback. So yes, it's to even the score.
Actually it's the train of thoughts behind her "MLC", she was that selfless criature, perpetual victim who always put others before her until she had enough and finnaly started taking care of herself, It's about time!!. She only had to grow the balls, evolve, be brave for once. You posted time ago one of your wife's letters. I was very telling.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Acabado said:


> You posted time ago one of your wife's letters. I was very telling.


The one with the "I'm sorry I'm not an inconfident, shy young girl any more" in it?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> The one with the "I'm sorry I'm not an inconfident, shy young girl any more" in it?


Blal blah blah blah, blah blah blah, bla .......pffffffffftt!!!:loser:


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Yes, from my stbxw's perspective, everything happens TO her. She is just an innocent "victim" of circumstance. I was a controlling, paranoid, insecure husband who she outgrew. At least, that's HER version.

For background: Here is a copy of the email (in which she tried to retract her confession of her PA the morning after I contacted the POSOM). Remember, she confessed to this 2009 PA AFTER we had separated and she moved out this past fall. When you read it - pay attention to where she says she didn't realize it would hurt more people than me and our children. Isn't that wonderful? To be more concerned about hurting the POSOM vs your husband and children?:


***************
"Cedarman",

I did not have a physical affair with "POSOM". I made that up. Remember the context in which this "confession" was obtained from me. On the day of the ***** banquet, you had spoken with your lawyer and suggested to me that we could speed up the divorce process if there was a physical relationship. I stupidly "confessed" without thinking, hoping it would in fact speed up the process, without understanding that it would hurt not just you and our kids but also other people who are not even part of this equation.

I made it up because I thought it would make it easier for you to let go of me.

I wanted to have a physical relationship with "POSOM" but never went through with it because I had my breasts done in March 2009 and the scars from that surgery was horrible. I was too self conscious to let anyone near it.

I have had a lot of time to reflect on our situation in the last few weeks. What happened between us is very sad. I changed from the young, insecure, bewildered 23 year old into a more confident women with different needs. But somehow, those needs were not being met and I did irreparable damage by looking outside the marriage to satisfy those needs. Call it vanity, mid-life crisis, narcissism - I took the wrong path.

What is happening now is also very sad. Tragic. I know I am responsible for it and I am sorry. I am working on getting to a better place emotionally and I hope you will too.

STBXW

********************


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

So now those "needs" are being met by clubbing and being a cougar. How nice. Your stbx will crush like the Hindenburg, just step back and watch.

I really hope your daughters will look at her and see what they should NOT do. She is setting a terrible example, especially for young girls that will soon start going out on their own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Wow Cedarman, that email gives some insight into your stbx's thinking...to answer your original question, I would never even consider wanting my husband to feel the pain of labour...when you love someone, the last thing you want to see is them hurting or in pain. She definitely seems to view others as what she can get from them...sad.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Find your daughters another "mommy" perhaps? One they can look up to while their own mother is out clubbing and bringing home men nearly their age.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Find your daughters another "mommy" perhaps? One they can look up to while their own mother is out clubbing and bringing home men nearly their age.


That would be a great plan, except the best I can hope for is 50% custody. BTW, our daughters are 14 and 12. We waited 10 years before kids. I'm looking back and realizing that our problems started within a couple years of when our youngest daughter was weaned. Baby steps all the way in terms of my stbxw's testing of the boundaries. I didn't even notice the problem until it was too late - then I handled it all wrong - that's how subtle it crept up on me.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Cedarman said:


> That would be a great plan, except the best I can hope for is 50% custody. BTW, our daughters are 14 and 12. We waited 10 years before kids. I'm looking back and realizing that our problems started within a couple years of when our youngest daughter was weaned. Baby steps all the way in terms of my stbxw's testing of the boundaries. I didn't even notice the problem until it was too late - then I handled it all wrong - that's how subtle it crept up on me.


Yeah, it happens. Just read something like this in one of the earlier MMSL blog posts. What the hell happened?

The worst thing about these stuff is we(men) don't understand what relationships truly are until **** starts raining from the sky. But once your eyes are opened, you cannot close them again and you see the world for what it is.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

This is ridiculous comparing giving birth and having a vasectomy.
Everyone's experiences are different. I've had 3 kids, all different experiences, my H had a vasectomy 11 years ago, no problems, back to work a day later.
Having a vasectomy, like having kids is a choice you should make together as a couple. For your wife to say what she did is crazy, and I think, just another excuse for her behaviour.
Look child birth is painful but the end result is something beautiful, if your wife meant what she said then what a nasty piece of work she is! 
Try putting it behind you, you know she's just blame shifting again!
Take care!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Numbersixxx said:


> So now those "needs" are being met by clubbing and being a cougar. How nice. *Your stbx will crus*h like the Hindenburg, just step back and watch.


Already done, it's actually happening since she started having envy of her toxic cougars cheating friends and their running from aging.
All her behavior and psychological landscape is everything but one of a confident woman/human being. Just the contrary. The vanity, the botox, the cosmetic surgery, the clubbing, the detachment from her own children... She's crashing for years only she has to reframe it/rationalize/self lie in order to accep herself. Fortunately for her she as an IC and her toxic friends to enable and a cultural narrative to save face.
Many pleople have no coping skills and keep digging the hole. She's very lucky to have an XH to deal with the children, they are possible the only thing which stop her from going to the deep end.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> I wanted to have a physical relationship with "POSOM" but never went through with it *because I had my breasts done* in March 2009 and the scars from that surgery was horrible. I was too self conscious to let anyone near it.
> ********************


:slap:

Not because it was wrong or anything right? My Goodness.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> :slap:
> 
> Not because it was wrong or anything right? My Goodness.


Yeah - her priorities are totally messed up. Just like her desire for me to get a vasectomy was not so that we could have condom-free sex. It was so that I sacrificed something. 

A good therapist would have a field day with my stbxw - you could probably write a paper on her. Too bad her current IC is incompetent.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Already done, it's actually happening since she started having envy of her toxic cougars cheating friends and their running from aging.
> All her behavior and psychological landscape is everything but one of a confident woman/human being. Just the contrary. The vanity, the botox, the cosmetic surgery, the clubbing, the detachment from her own children... She's crashing for years only she has to reframe it/rationalize/self lie in order to accep herself. Fortunately for her she as an IC and her toxic friends to enable and a cultural narrative to save face.
> Many pleople have no coping skills and keep digging the hole. She's very lucky to have an XH to deal with the children, they are possible the only thing which stop her from going to the deep end.


I think her toxic friends envied my stbxw. She had freedom AND a family and a husband. I think the latter two made them uncomfortable. I've said before and I still believe that my stbxw was a project for her toxic friends. They wanted her to join their divorced cougar club as a full patch member.

As for crashing - unfortunately she probably won't, or won't notice what she's giving up. My lawyer (a very experienced divorce lawyer) told me in our very first meeting (when I said that this was a "trial" separation) - my lawyer said "OPEN YOUR EYES. She's making WAY too much money and having WAY too much fun." She was right.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow. 

I've had two babies by 2 men (9 years apart) and never ONCE wished them any pain or drama just because I was pregnant. Weird.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

No. Being pregnant, giving birth and breastfeeding has been the greatest privilege. If anything, I'm sorry for my husband that me did t get to do any of it.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Uh V pain isn't near birth pain. I have heard a few women mention birth pain being similar in intensity to a bad kidney stone attack. I have had severe attacks in the past and trust me kidney stone pain is intense. V pain has 3 components.
1). The local feels like a bee sting on your balls. It is intense but lasts about 1 second.
2). Incisions are quite small and start out feeling rather like longer lasting paper cuts. 
3). The third is the most significant and of course women won't have a frame of reference. Ever been kicked in the balls really bad??? Well imagine the pain about 15 seconds after the fact after you are able to walk again. It starts there and fades pretty fast over the next 48 hours except maybe the last 20 percent of it which lasts about a week.

The operation... Half hourish. I didn't even feel left. Right had the ball kick pain going pretty bad during and after.

Overall worth it esp compared to tube tie unless you wife is getting a c section anyway. At that point they have her opened up anyway. May as well do the tubes. The risk and pain is much more for her in a separate tube tie than a vasectomy.


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## Louise7 (Nov 8, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Louise7 - your husband sounds like a real piece of work. Selfish [email protected] Hope you're able to get past it some day.


Yup A grade bar steward.


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