# new here and confused



## naiveonedave

My situation:
Both mid 40’s, she is a SAHM/sometimes part time employed, 2 teen boys, heavy in travel sports, lots of time apart due to this. 
~ 1 year ago, really noticed slide in frequency of any intimacy.
Starting googling signs of why not intimacy, which led to signs of infidelity. She had them all, these were common:
•	Lots of GNOs
•	Phone issues
•	Deleted internet history
•	Ton of time on computer and alone after I went to bed
Before I was smart enough, I confronted about the lack of intimacy and then asked directly are you cheating, probably in April. Response was deer in headlights, you are wrong, you must be cheating, etc. Was not handled well by either of us, led to a fight.
After confrontation, I noticed slow changes in behavior, more intimacy, more time together. Also put keylogger on computer (which has shown nothing).
Today we seem to be in a better place all around. We had what looks like a hysterical bonding period over the summer and into the fall. Now 2-3 x per week. Exception: I set up two romantic get away weekends (October and December) that were destroyed by her crappy attitude to me during the weekends. She blames drinking, but I don’t see it that way. She was past tipsy, but not ‘bombed’.
So what I am wondering:
•	Did she have an affair?
•	If so, is it now just underground or is it over?
•	How do I find out anything without coming across of unreasonably jealous or weak?


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## LostWifeCrushed

talk to weightlifter

i have seen him help husband's like you get to the truth. maybe read some of his posts...
if you have a keylogger then what is she doing online at night after you go to bed?


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## Chris989

naiveonedave said:


> My situation:
> Both mid 40’s, she is a SAHM/sometimes part time employed, 2 teen boys, heavy in travel sports, lots of time apart due to this.
> ~ 1 year ago, really noticed slide in frequency of any intimacy.
> Starting googling signs of why not intimacy, which led to signs of infidelity. She had them all, these were common:
> •	Lots of GNOs
> •	Phone issues
> •	Deleted internet history
> •	Ton of time on computer and alone after I went to bed
> Before I was smart enough, I confronted about the lack of intimacy and then asked directly are you cheating, probably in April. Response was deer in headlights, you are wrong, you must be cheating, etc. Was not handled well by either of us, led to a fight.
> After confrontation, I noticed slow changes in behavior, more intimacy, more time together. Also put keylogger on computer (which has shown nothing).
> Today we seem to be in a better place all around. We had what looks like a hysterical bonding period over the summer and into the fall. Now 2-3 x per week. Exception: I set up two romantic get away weekends (October and December) that were destroyed by her crappy attitude to me during the weekends. She blames drinking, but I don’t see it that way. She was past tipsy, but not ‘bombed’.
> So what I am wondering:
> •	Did she have an affair?
> •	If so, is it now just underground or is it over?
> •	How do I find out anything without coming across of unreasonably jealous or weak?


This is difficult if you think an affair might have happened and is now over.

You might want to try a voice activated recorder in her car and see if she mentions anything to girlfriends or maybe even still calls this other man.

If a keylogger turned nothing up then have you tried recovering deleted texts from her phone? What else have you tried?


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## naiveonedave

I went through the phone records and verified her main phone only was used to text people I know. I am somewhat concerned about a burner phone and that she was holding her main phone just in case. 
Did some spokeo on all known email accounts. Thinking of VAR, but she isn't in the car much, when I am not there. Any other ideas.


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## naiveonedave

to other question: she mainly plays facebook games like diner dash. Surfs news websites, that kind of stuff. Nothing incriminating, other than the deleted history prior to key logging.


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## Cubby

naiveonedave said:


> I went through the phone records and verified her main phone only was used to text people I know. I am somewhat concerned about a burner phone and that she was holding her main phone just in case.
> Did some spokeo on all known email accounts. *Thinking of VAR, but she isn't in the car much, when I am not there. * Any other ideas.


The VAR doesn't have to be placed in the car. It can be hidden in a room for instance. There's a "pen-VAR" that can be hidden in her purse if you want to risk it.


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## heartbroken0426

naiveonedave said:


> I went through the phone records and verified her main phone only was used to text people I know. I am somewhat concerned about a burner phone and that she was holding her main phone just in case.
> Did some spokeo on all known email accounts. Thinking of VAR, but she isn't in the car much, when I am not there. Any other ideas.


I just recently caught my H cheating on me. I like you checked his phone over and over and over again and didn't find anything. I ended up catching him by looking at his computer and knowing his password. I thought he had a burner phone too because how was he talking to this woman and texting her when it wasn't showing up on the phone bill. Well when In confronted him about the affair and asked him how he was doing it, he had gotten a google voice phone number through his fake gmail account. Then from his cell phone web browser, he'd voice talk to her and message her. None of this shows up on the phone bill because it's through google voice and he accessed it through the browser.


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## badmemory

Those are truly red flags you described. My WW had all of the same. You were smart to put a key logger on her computer. If she was having an EA/PA and it's cooled off or stopped, then it's going to be difficult to find out unless you can maybe check her past cell phone records or recover deleted texts and e-mails. 

You don't have enough evidence to give her an ultimatum or ask her to take a poly; and unfortunately, your premature confrontation may have her attempting to take this underground if the A is still going. 

I'd play it cool for now, keep your keylogger going, and also consider spyware on her cell, and a VAR in her car. If you don't put spyware on her cell, at least keep checking the cell phone records and compare to her cell text log to see if she is deleting texts and who she is texting/calling.


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## workindad

So deleting of history stopped after confrontation? 

Does she have any other way to get on the internet ipad tablet etc

A var can be used in the house as well. 

Does she still do gnos? 

Some similarities to my case not entirely the same but a few that are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave

GNOs are down to <1/month from 1/week a year ago. What I find somewhat an issue is that 3/month a year ago was with a woman who I think is a threat to my marriage.

Still deletes internet history - thinks it bogs our computer down, but with keylogger, i don't care.


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## naiveonedave

she does have a tablet that is sporadically used for internet. Are there apps I should look for? I went through it shortly after I confronted her, but couldn't find anything suspiciouis. there are a lot more apps there now, though. It was new 13 months ago.


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## Thor

1) Trust your gut. I would put the odds at 50/50. Perhaps she was checking out, and was discussing her situation with a girlfriend or sibling. The symptoms are not absolute, nor are they exclusive to cheating. Your gut is the best guide.

2) Could be either. Do your due diligence. VAR in her car. Search the car (don't get caught doing it) very carefully for a burner phone. Look in every space including spare tire, etc. Carefully review her cell records for texting and phone call trends. A sudden decrease after confrontation might indicate an affair which either ended or went to alternate modes of communication (but it would suggest an affair). Review all the credit/debit transactions. Look for locations, dates, or times which are questionable. Look for possible purchases gifts or sexy clothes which you haven't seen. Carefully search her purse and her car for anything odd. Condom wrappers, underwear, hotel key cards, food wrappers or other debris from things she would not consume. Research every name/number in her contact lists. Cheaters frequently use fake names for their AP; Joe becomes Jane, etc.

3) Welcome to Limbo He11. You will never have the truth unless you find proof positive. She cannot prove she did not have an affair. Asking her if she did, well that is a dangerous road. Many people, including many therapists, believe it is better for a cheater who is no longer in an affair to stfu and never admit it.

You have really only one option, which is to accept that you will never know for sure. From there you have a couple of sub-paths. You can assume she did, and then decide if you can continue with her. Or, you can decide to live without ever knowing one way or the other, and stop trying to figure it out.

If you have good communications with her and reach a point where she trusts you completely, you could approach her with a request. I think the odds are low it would work, but it might. I would only do this if you believe it would not hurt your relationship.

"We were in a bad place with our marriage in years past. I'm glad we've figured things out and are doing so much better. I've learned a lot about myself and how to be a better husband. Thank you for helping me. Part of moving forward is putting the past behind us forever, so that there are no ghosts haunting us. To do that, I am asking you to think back and see if there is anything which I don't know about, and which if it came up in the future would be harmful to us. Don't answer now, you can take a day or two. I assure you that I value my marriage to you. I want us to build a marriage based on open honesty. Whatever may be out there we can work through. Secrets will only weigh us down. Future surprise revelations will undermine the entirety of our history and make continuing impossible."

I've had that conversation with my wife and she denied there was anything. So, still in Limbo.

You could try having that conversation within marriage counseling. Emotion Focused Therapy is a good theory, so perhaps you could find a therapist in your area who uses it. Part of their philosophy is not keeping secrets from clients. They will see you as a couple and they will see each of you alone once in a while. If your wife confesses an affair in her solo session, the therapist is obligated to work with her to confess to you (it may take a few weeks) or the therapist will fire you as a couple. So, again, it is a weak probability that she will confess at all, but some find MC to be a safe place to unburden themselves. The EFT therapist will not hold the secret, whereas many others will keep the secret from you.


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## harrybrown

Get the VAR in the house. 

Have you been tested for stds? and stop all of the GNO. 

Does she want you and the marriage? or her freedom and the GNO?

From my experience, the GNO are not friendly to marriage. She caught stds from them. And was shocked when her AP had more than one AP at a time. 

What a surprise that the OM will cheat with you and on you. oh so sad.


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## Thorburn

Too many variables. Could have being a start of something and your confrontation ended it.

But as you discovered there are plenty of red flags. I think you should keep up on looking. Sometimes folks get lucky with some programs that will pull up old data on the computer.

Bogging down the computer. I have worked with and know folks that deletes everything because they think anything will bog down their computer. Or they are trying to hide things.

I would way on the side of caution.


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## AZman

As far as Apps, Google voice and Snapchat are big ones. I used to use Googlevoice for texting since my work phone didn't allow texting. Using their app, I could text anyone, any number and it is 100% untraceable looking at a phone bill because it uses data. Just can't do pictures via text with GV. So yeah you could setup a fake gmail email account, get a GV number and be 100% totally untraceable. Technology has definitely made secrecy and infidelity much easier.


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## naiveonedave

great, the wife has snap chat, to monitor our teenager. Ugh.


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## Thor

How does she say she is monitoring your teen with SnapChat? I don't have it so my knowledge is minimal, but isn't it simply a message app? You can send a message, and the message self destructs after a certain short time period? Or am I thinking of a different app?

Anyhow be sure you understand what the apps do so that you can detect bs from your W.


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## Chris989

Thor said:


> How does she say she is monitoring your teen with SnapChat? I don't have it so my knowledge is minimal, but isn't it simply a message app? You can send a message, and the message self destructs after a certain short time period? Or am I thinking of a different app?
> 
> Anyhow be sure you understand what the apps do so that you can detect bs from your W.



The only way she could monitor the teenager is by asking for snapchats to be sent on demand.

I don't buy it. It's for sending and receiving nude pics and messages with no trace.


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## weightlifter

Please be one of tjose people who simply executes rather than debate me.

Later tonight or tomorrow i will post my standard instruction set. Just do it. ( at work atm and my standard document is like three pages now. It is the collective wisdom of dozens of betrayed. Dont debate me, just execute the plan. 25 cheating wives and one cheating husband never imagined what they had working against them when i started helping the betrayed spouse.

For now. Keep your kouth shut and you eyes open. You belong to a big club of. People who did weak half azzed confronts that led to disaster. Some good smart men in your club. How to handle cheating isnt in those pre wedding classes they make you take.

Hopefully some of my former charges here will pipe in of just some of the crazy sh!t that happened but in the end, we got confessions/ caught them hardcore.

Your next confront, if she is cheating still, will destroy any will she has to deny it. Of course it will all be your fault but your mind will ease up as far as thinking you were crazy.


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## weightlifter

Oh what is her phone? Model?
I effing hate snapchat.


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## Refuse to be played

weightlifter said:


> Oh what is her phone? Model?
> I effing hate snapchat.


Do what weightlifter advises you to do. He knows his sh*t. Also put this on whatever phone or tablet she has. If it's still going on you'll find out. 

Mobile Spy Compatibility | Android, iPhone and BlackBerry Spy App


I'm sure there is someone that knows about recovering messages on here.


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## Will_Kane

naiveonedave said:


> great, the wife has snap chat, to monitor our teenager. Ugh.


There is no way to catch a smart cheater. There are too many ways to hide communication, too many games and apps that hid communications. HOWEVER, in my opinion, the best chance you have is through the voice-activated recorders. One in the house where she is likely to talk when you are not around, one in her car. If she still has girls nights outs, if she still talks to those "girls," there is a good chance that you will hear them discuss it at some point. Follow weightlifter's instructions.

The guarding of the phone is the number one sign in my opinion. That, and how she treats you, how distant she became. The affair may well be over, she may have gotten scared OR it may just have run its course anyway.

You can go crazy trying to catch her. Try the VARs for 3-4 weeks, keep the keylogger for that period of time, if there is something, it probably will show up within that time period.

Does she still guard the phone?

How savvy is your wife with technology? It seems like she is fairly knowledgeable of various devices like phones, tablets, computers and various apps that run on them.


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## john1068

naiveonedave said:


> to other question: she mainly plays facebook games like diner dash. Surfs news websites, that kind of stuff. Nothing incriminating, other than the deleted history prior to key logging.


Is her internet browsers set up to use Google as the default search engine? And does she use a gmail account? If so, she can delete here browser history all she wants, that only deletes the history that is localbin the browser itself...

On ANY computer, navigate to https://google.com/history. Log in using her gmail credentials and you'll have all history right there. Cant be deleted unless your wife logs in this same way...she'd only be deleting Chrome, IE, or Firefox history, not the Google history when deleting within the browser itself. 

Interesting how you came here to TAM as well. Sounds like your path and mine are quite similar. My W exibited several signs of a WS. But after going through everything...she wasn't having ANY kind of affair. She was simply "waiting" for me to start participatingnin our relationship again as she'd checked out, focusing instead on kids and their hectic schedules to keep her sane.

We're in a much much better place today.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## john1068

naiveonedave said:


> great, the wife has snap chat, to monitor our teenager. Ugh.


That's BS if thisbis what she told you SnapChat is for! One with SnapChat can't monitor what their children (or anybody else) are doing...its used solely to send photos and videos to other users without the photos/videos being saveable...

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## LostWifeCrushed

john1068 said:


> Is her internet browsers set up to use Google as the default search engine? And does she use a gmail account? If so, she can delete here browser history all she wants, that only deletes the history that is localbin the browser itself...
> 
> On ANY computer, navigate to https://google.com/history. Log in using her gmail credentials and you'll have all history right there. Cant be deleted unless your wife logs in this same way...she'd only be deleting Chrome, IE, or Firefox history, not the Google history when deleting within the browser itself.
> 
> Interesting how you came here to TAM as well. Sounds like your path and mine are quite similar. My W exibited several signs of a WS. But after going through everything...she wasn't having ANY kind of affair. She was simply "waiting" for me to start participatingnin our relationship again as she'd checked out, focusing instead on kids and their hectic schedules to keep her sane.
> 
> We're in a much much better place today.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Great advice, this is exactly how I found out my H was lying to me just last week.


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## weightlifter

OP. Here is your plan.

EXECUTE IT!

VARs and evidence

Your wife is acting funny. Her phone and email suddenly have passwords you don't know. She shuts down phone apps or changes windows on the computer whenever you enter the room. She is suddenly staying out until 2 to 5 in the morning. She has new single friends. She has lost weight and is dressing hotter to boot. Her ex contacted her 3 weeks ago and she wants “to meet to catch up at some public place” Any of this sound familiar? 

If you are reading this your gut is going crazy. “Relax”, in that there is a high liklihood that you are not crazy at least. “Your gut” is your basic instinct from the caveman period. There is something up with your mate. It is part of your mind built into you and in your DNA. You probably cant sleep. You are losing weight like crazy and are not hungry. Well if you are reading this and that is 90% of you reading this if its your first time... You are embarking on what is probably going to be the worst time of your life.

Chin up, yes I know it is damn near impossible to believe now, but I and the people at TAM here have taken dozens of men through this process. Some reconcile, most dont in the long run so be aware. Most of us hang around this grim grim place for a sense of “pay it forward” and “getting at the truth” Even in divorce, the long run the majority find love again... yes really. Often selecting a far far better future companion. Read poster BFF for a thread of disaster, divorce, recovery, and a new wonderful woman in his life. Younger and hotter, yes, but also one with better boundaries, often a far far better personality match. Oh and they get to go through that first time with her after the first I love you's have been exchanged. Just know, that for the majority, even if the marriage crashes, in six months, a year, maybe two you will wonder how you got so far so fast and how great your new life is. You will also be MUCH MUCH stronger as a person.

So. Here are your instructions. Do this now. I dont mean next week. I mean make something up within the next day and GET IT DONE! Not looking will only prolong your agony.
Rule 1 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 
Rule 2 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 
Rule 3 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 

NO MORE CONFRONTS!! Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! Soft confronts RARELY WORK AND ONLY MAKE GETTING AT THE TRUTH HARDER!!! THIS PROLONGS YOUR AGONY! NEVER give up you get your intel from the VAR. You tell her, you always got your info from a PI or someone saw them. Hard confronts with overwhelming evidence to crush all resistance are the name of the game.

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 or ICDPX333 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY THE cheapies. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. My icon IS a Sony ICDPX312. No I do not have stock in nor work for Sony.

Setup instructions are on page 19. Also good stuff on page 31.
Use 44K bit rate for balancing file size vs quality DO NOT USE 8K!!!!! Simply put. The higher the quality the better the sound and 8K sucks. ALSO. The higher the quality the more you can manipulate the mp3 in Audacity.
Set VOR "on" see page 38
See page 40 for adding memory if necessary
Play with it yourself to get familiar. TEST IT OUT 
Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus. You can even play prevent defense by going to a dollar store, buying uber-cheapie earbuds, cut off the buds but put in the jack which will actually disable the speaker for additional protection.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.
This is one item: Velcro Heavy-Duty Hook and Loop Fastener VEK90117: Office : Walmart.com
also
Purchase VELCRO Hook and Loop Fasteners, Sticky-Back, for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.
The velcro is usually in the fabric section or less often in the aisle with the fasteners like screws. The velcro pack is mostly blue with a yellow top. Clear pack shows the vecro color which is black or white. 

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off. attach one side HD velcro from Walmart to back. USE BIG PIECE
attach other side HD velcro again UP INSIDE car seat. 

ATTACH THE CRAP out of it. It needs to stay put going over big potholes or railroad tracks.
I recommend exporting the sound files to your comp. The recorder is very cumbersome for playback.

Put the second VAR in whatever room she uses to talk in when you are not around. If you are a typical man, use your size advantage to put it someplace she cant reach, even on a chair. Beware spring cleaning season if she does it.

Amazon has a pen VAR that can be placed in a purse or other small place to get remote conversations. Yes the pen works.

Usual warning. If you hear another man and perhaps a little kissing or... STOP Listening and have a trusted friend listen and tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing her moan while another man is inside her will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for four men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. Read his second thread for my reliability and confidentiality. 

Lets be very clear about what the VAR is for and is not for. It will not be court admissible evidence. It is not for the confrontation. IT IS TO GET YOU AHEAD OF THE AFFAIR so you can gain other real evidence by knowing the who and when. NEVER MENTION YOUR VAR EVIDENCE. As far as the cheater is concerned, they were seen by a PI or something NOT your VAR!!

If your wife comes home from an alone time does she immediately change liners, change panties possibly even immediately laundering them?, shower? This can be an after the fact clean up. Amazon sells a semen detection kit called checkmate.

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful. There is even a locator webpage you can track with.

Look for a burner phone. This is a second phone from a prepay service just used for cheating communications. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone" The dont use their main phone for cheating purposes.

There is an app out there called teensafe. Its for both Iphone and Android. It monitors texts, GPS and facebook. Needs no jailbreak. Not perfect and delayed but no jailbreak required.

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.
Here is a list 25 Apps to Help You Cheat On Your Girlfriend | Complex

If he uses chrome or firefox, there is probably a list of saved passwords you can look at. Even if his email isn't saved there, people usually only use a couple of different passwords, so one from the list might work. 

For firefox it's Tools -> Options -> Security -> Saved Passwords

For Chrome it's the little box with three bars in the top right -> Settings - Show advanced settings -> Managed saved passwords


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## Machiavelli

naiveonedave said:


> So what I am wondering:
> •	Did she have an affair?
> •	If so, is it now just underground or is it over?
> •	How do I find out anything without coming across of unreasonably jealous or weak?


Yes, she had an affair or multiple affairs.

Most likely she is underground due to your bungled confrontation.

Act confident and act like all is forgiven and apologize to her for ever thinking such a thing possible.

Then investigate like Hell and don't get caught doing it.

Weightlifter has turned into the "Chief of Intel Ops TAM." Pay attention to his advice and follow it to the letter.


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## Machiavelli

naiveonedave said:


> GNOs are down to <1/month from 1/week a year ago. *What I find somewhat an issue is that 3/month a year ago was with a woman who I think is a threat to my marriage.*
> 
> Still deletes internet history - thinks it bogs our computer down, but with keylogger, i don't care.


Elaborate on this toxic friend.

Is your wife's sport track/individual or a team?

Is it coed or all girl?


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## weightlifter

The toxic friend could be the key methinks.
GNOs could be the key.
Combine them...

That document I copied is not just mine it is all of ours. I added a thing tonight. The internet history part by john1068. A living document that as stuff works or doesn't gets modded. Its pretty powerful by now. Yea it does work. A couple youtube channels have my mind spinning with some really cool ideas on video using webcam components and everyday objects.

BTW I meant it. If the VARS turn up sex for heavens sake DO NOT LISTEN TO YOUR WIFE with another man inside her. It will deal damage far beyond normal knowledge of a cheating wife.

Oh and GPS will be your friend most likely.


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## tom67

Here is another pen var

Amazon.com: Executive Style Gold Digital Voice and Audio Spy Recorder Pen with Voice Activated Recording Mode by SpygearGadgets: Electronics


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## naiveonedave

toxic friend - single, madly in love with a guy who treats her like crap. We were acquaintances in HS, before I met my wife. Her mother was our neighbor when we got married, and my wife and the mother are friends. The mother suggested her daughter and my wife be friends. I think the toxic friend doesn't like me from HS. We hung with very different crowds and though I don't have any positive or negative memories of her or our interactions, it has come up that she loathes some of the dudes I was tight with, back then. 

To be honest, I can't recall the last girls night out, must have been october or earlier.


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## LongWalk

What is her sport?

Are you in good shape?

Hit the weights. If your wife is a jock, she'll want someone to match her.

Up your sex ranking.


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## workindad

Invest in vars plural. 

I do not buy her story for use of snapchat. I think she has gotten better at hiding her actions and is throwing you off the trail with extra sex. 

Does she use google chrome on the tablet to search the we. If yes the. Look at her history as described in an earlier post on this thread. 

You may want to search for spyware for her phone and tablet. I'm not sure how else you will catch the snapchat crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave

she uses safari on her IPAD. 

She is into walking. Her exercise. No sports.

I play old man hockey, currently trying to drop some pounds, but with work and kids activities, it is hard to do.


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## weightlifter

Are you planning on doing any of the steps outlined?

Cant go to Best Buy for you.


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## naiveonedave

plan on buying VARs this weekend. some of the other ideas on the IPAD and home computer will be done as soon I can swing it. 

Thanks all for the input. 

Most of the thread links didn't work in you long post weightlifter, came up as thread not available or something.


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## naiveonedave

btw, infidelity is a deal breaker, so anything I do to up my potential is only for future....


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## AZman

I did not go for the VARs I didn't need them in my situation, but I did some of the app stuff, computer stuff and such that has been recommended here at TAM. It has helped me know as much as possible that NC has been in effect. 

I don't have to worry about her talking to OM in the car on the way to/from work anymore as she is carpooling with my nephew.  And before someone says some comment about me having to worry about my nephew, don't. There is ZERO chance there. 

The only place I could potentially use a VAR would have been her office which I don't have ready access too. Keyloggers, spy programs etc., knowing all passwords, has helped me.


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## Thor

tom67 said:


> Here is another pen var
> 
> Amazon.com: Executive Style Gold Digital Voice and Audio Spy Recorder Pen with Voice Activated Recording Mode by SpygearGadgets: Electronics


A pen VAR seems dangerous to me. Don't women know which objects in their purse are theirs? Wouldn't they notice this pen is not like the ones they usually buy? Wouldn't they notice they have never seen this one before?

A pen VAR is a super idea in the home or office, though. Nobody would suspect it, they would assume it is just another pen which showed up.


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## LostWifeCrushed

Thor said:


> A pen VAR seems dangerous to me. Don't women know which objects in their purse are theirs? Wouldn't they notice this pen is not like the ones they usually buy? Wouldn't they notice they have never seen this one before?
> 
> A pen VAR is a super idea in the home or office, though. Nobody would suspect it, they would assume it is just another pen which showed up.


Yes very dangerous, I would notice this right away if it was in my purse as would most any other woman. I don't know who thinks that this would work. Please don't try it unless you want to be found out.


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## Thor

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, she had an affair or multiple affairs.
> 
> Most likely she is underground due to your bungled confrontation.
> 
> Act confident and act like all is forgiven and apologize to her for ever thinking such a thing possible.
> 
> Then investigate like Hell and don't get caught doing it.
> 
> Weightlifter has turned into the "Chief of Intel Ops TAM." Pay attention to his advice and follow it to the letter.


:iagree:

I am in a similar position. There was evidence my wife had affairs in the past, and I was simply stupid. We had teen daughters with lots of drama at that point, so I was only trying to not break up the family until they were off to college.

Anyhow by the time I reached the breaking point there was no indication of a current ongoing affair. Some red flags of previous affairs but never any hard evidence such as photos or emails.

So I can relate to the OP's position and his emotional state.

Upon advice of my IC and a trusted advisor I asked her if there had ever been any affairs of any type. This is a low probability approach but at that point the only other option was to stfu and never have any chance at all of getting confirmation. Of course she denied anything ever happened. I have never again asked her about affairs.

You can investigate forever and never get proof of an ended affair.

Now, 2.5 years later, I have learned that the pursuit of proof is a bit of a diversion. The fact there are suspicions means that there are many significant other problems in the relationship. *The search for proof of an affair may indicate an emotional need for a reason to leave the relationship while putting the blame on her*.

If one accepts that there is little chance of proving the ended affairs, then there is no reason to _actively_ keep looking.

So instead, one should be looking at the rest of the relationship and at the real person your spouse is. Their true nature is there to see, though it may be hidden much of the time. If you suspect cheating, there have likely been other betrayals such as lies, deceptions, verbal abuse, indifference, etc etc. which led to being suspicious of an affair.

So is your spouse otherwise a good person who makes a great match to you? Is your marriage suffering from normal minor conflicts? Or is the true character of your wife distasteful to you? Is your marriage broken from the foundation on up?

You *can* make a D or R decision based on the other factors, and those factors are ones you have the ability to know some true data about.


----------



## weightlifter

cleaned up the post. Threads were deleted.

IIRC getting the PW on the Ipad involves cleaning it and looking for the heaviest fingerprints on the PW screen locations.

The biggie on the vars is SONY SONY SONY. We had some disasters with other brands. No I dont work for Sony.


----------



## naiveonedave

Thor - good observations. I don't think our marriage is built on a shaky foundation, though we have had our normal minor squabbles over the years. My wife is a bit selfish, probably her only major flaw, other than the junk that started about a year ago. We typically get along great, do quite a bit together, sometimes we wished we did more together, but kids muck that up. We have to do too much divide and concquer to get them to activities, etc.

I really only care, because I don't want to be played and then find out years later and get crushed. reading some of the stories about multi year affairs or affairs that are dead but discovered years later have pushed into detective mode. That and the 2 romantic weekends that bombed have played heavily on me since I started seeing Valentines day stuff at stores. I like to do romatic stuff for my SO, going back to 1st GF30 years ago, it is just me. After these past two fiascos, don't know how I will do it and that hurts.


----------



## Thor

OK, here is what I suggest.

You approach your wife with your general concerns about the relationship. Mention all the time spent on travel sports, the natural distractions of family and jobs, and the decrease in your closeness. Ask her to work with you to rebuild the marriage relationship before it gets any further down the wrong path.

I would have selected several good MCs in your area and ask your wife to go with you. Your wife may prefer either a male or a female MC, so I would have one of each gender pre-selected. Then whatever your wife says, make an appointment and go. Even if she refuses, you go. There is a high chance she will go with you even if she first says no.

I would take the approach of reporting to her your feelings and goals. I would not say a thing about suspecting an affair. Instead, report your observations of her disconnected behavior (such as late night internet) and the family being focused on the wrong priorities.

Marriage requires time and effort. A lot of people get distracted with all kinds of other things, thinking perhaps that the marriage will be ok all by itself. Wrong. You two need to spend time together, without kids or outside demands. You also need some structure in getting back on the right track. That is where a good MC comes into play.

The EFT (Emotionally Focused Therapy) model is imo a very good one, and one part of it is that the therapist must not maintain secrets from you. So pick a local EFT certified MC. Just don't tell your wife about this detail!

We've seen several cases here on TAM with some red flaggish behaviors which turned out not to be affairs, but were the wife disconnecting. Probably some mid life crisis thrown in, too.

There are some great books out there too. I think good MC is better because it forces accountability.

If she feels secure, and if there has been an affair, she may reveal it in MC. So the big question is what will you do if she does reveal it? Is it a definite D no matter what?

I wish I could remember who said it, but there was a superb philosophy someone famous recently talked about. The idea is to do the important things first, then do the urgent things second, and finally if there is time you can work on the unimportant and non-urgent things.

Important things include family time, exercise, and personal passions. So you would prioritize going for a walk with your wife.

Urgent things include returning phone calls at work, taking your kids to a scheduled evet, etc. There is a time factor in these things. But they may not be really all that important. 

Thus it may be more important for you as a family to do a true family activity such as a family meal rather than driving all over for their sports practice. The boys can miss a game once in a while so that you can spend a weekend camping as a family or visiting an elderly relative.

If you had told me there were a lot of problems in your marriage I would suggest you evaluate whether you wanted to stay in the marriage regardless of if she had an affair. Because there is no significant evidence, and because the marriage is basically ok, I would work on strengthening the marriage rather than becoming passive. If you do nothing, it will fall apart and you will D.


----------



## Chris989

During my (now ex) wife's affair, we spent 2 brilliant weeks together on holiday, plus a few weekends. The kids were with us for the longer breaks.

She was engaged, good company, loving. Sex was great (that didn't change - in fact at one point during her affair I was having to do it when I was really not in the mood as she wanted it *that* much). 

She would hold my hand. Tell me how much she enjoyed being with the family. Yadda Yadda Yadda.

My point is that, if you suspect an affair is going on - or has gone on - you need to know *before* you work on your marriage - otherwise it is like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it.

Edit/ I remembered another 2 holidays we took during that time. Same story during those.


----------



## Thor

IF there is an affair currently in progress, it should be discovered quickly using VARs, keylogger, phone tracker, and perhaps GPS track the car. If nothing is found within a week or 2, I would conclude an affair is not currently in progress.

Due diligence is a good thing, but don't get bogged down in a quest to find something which may not exist.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

I agree...you need to be prepared to accept the possibility there was no affair


----------



## naiveonedave

interesting discussion. I see where you are going Thor. I was contemplating trying to find therapy before I posted the thread, just to deal with the fallout of these 2 weekends. I don't think she gets what they did to me. That would be a good angle to use to get into therapy, while not giving out any misgivings about infidelity.

I am open to there never having been an affair, but gut and circumstantial evidence are pretty strong. If there was one, and it is over, would I take the hard stance on D? Many on here claim they felt that way, then tried to R. I am not sure, but would say D right now.


----------



## Chris989

naiveonedave said:


> interesting discussion. I see where you are going Thor. I was contemplating trying to find therapy before I posted the thread, just to deal with the fallout of these 2 weekends. I don't think she gets what they did to me. That would be a good angle to use to get into therapy, while not giving out any misgivings about infidelity.
> 
> I am open to there never having been an affair, but gut and circumstantial evidence are pretty strong. If there was one, and it is over, would I take the hard stance on D? Many on here claim they felt that way, then tried to R. I am not sure, but would say D right now.


_*You have nothing to lose (other than a few $$) by looking for evidence of an affair.*_

You could lose everything if you go into MC and whatever she is doing goes further underground.

MC is a lottery at best. With doubt about the facts of your relationship it stacks the odds against you.

Put your mind at ease first. Not doing so may seem easier and the "right thing to do", but I promise you it is not.


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## MrK

Have her tailed on her next GNO


----------



## LongWalk

Regardless of whether there was an affair, would you describe your marriage as happy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## naiveonedave

tailing on GNO is a possibility, thinking gps would be sufficient. These typically aren't 8 hour ordeals, most are 3-5 hours or so. and there haven't been many lately, none in 3+ months

Marriage is generally happy, probably better than most, but not perfect. I really don't think that is very relevent. Reading posts here, it seems the apparent happy factor is irrelevent. Only the wayward knows, though.


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## Thor

naiveonedave said:


> interesting discussion. I see where you are going Thor. I was contemplating trying to find therapy before I posted the thread, just to deal with the fallout of these 2 weekends. I don't think she gets what they did to me. That would be a good angle to use to get into therapy, while not giving out any misgivings about infidelity.
> 
> I am open to there never having been an affair, but gut and circumstantial evidence are pretty strong. If there was one, and it is over, would I take the hard stance on D? Many on here claim they felt that way, then tried to R. I am not sure, but would say D right now.


Those 2 weekends are the getaways that went poorly?

IF you discuss such events with her, try to do it as reporting your experience of it. Don't try to argue facts or timelines, because she'll get you off track and she'll feel the need to defend herself. If you tell her you felt rejected by her during the getaway, and you felt your preparations were not appreciated, she can't really argue that you didn't have those feelings. Well, she might, and that would be a big problem in your relationship if she is telling you it is wrong to have your own feelings. Anyhow, she will probably bring up issues or complaints on her side, too. The goal isn't to convince her she screwed up, it is to merely report how her behavior affected you.

Honestly I put the odds still at 50/50 she had an affair. I wouldn't be surprised either way. The problem is you can't get certainty without some good evidence.

One strategy might be to prod her into talking to someone about things. Plant a VAR in the car and in the house where she makes private phone calls. Keylog the computer. Then talk to her about some non-nuclear issue. Perhaps the getaway would be a good one. Then she talks to her best friend about it or sends an email, and you intercept it.

I'm not personally comfortable with that but you might find it acceptable for your situation.

If you report to her that your observations of her behavior triggered a gut feeling she was having an affair, and don't do it in an accusatory manner, she may talk to you. However, if she thinks you will D if she confesses, there is no chance she'll confess.

I tried a carrot & stick approac with my wife. Carrot: We can work through anything as long as we have open honesty. Stick: Anything I find out about from any other source is an instant deal-breaker.

Note that the carrot is an implied amnesty, though it is really a promise to work on any issues. It is not an promise of instant forgiveness and instantly forgetting about it.

If the whole uncertainty becomes a brick wall for you, there is one final option. You can tell her you conclude she did have an affair, and you are proceeding on that basis. This means you are divorcing her because of her behaviors which lead to the conclusion of an affair. If she protests and complains, you can offer her the opportunity to take a polygraph. Imo this is a last ditch strategy when you know you cannot continue in the marriage without getting some certainty.

Limbo really is he11, isn't it?


----------



## weightlifter

Investigate hard for 3 weeks. If you find nothing put it away and wait a bit and try again either x time or red flags show up.

You v


----------



## Machiavelli

weightlifter said:


> Investigate hard for 3 weeks. * If you find nothing put it away and wait a bit and try again* either x time or red flags show up.
> 
> You v


That's it right there.

In the meantime, how much attention do women give you at work and random places?


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## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> That's it right there.
> 
> In the meantime, how much attention do women give you at work and random places?


Should we start a firestorm on this thread about the golden v ratio and the limbic brain?
Eh why not.


----------



## tom67

OP do women hit on you on occasion.


----------



## Machiavelli

tom67 said:


> OP do women hit on you on occasion.


Well, it's always a factor isn't it. Look at Zanne's thread.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> Well, it's always a factor isn't it. Look at Zanne's thread.


That one is pretty sad that's all I'll say on that one.
It is a factor for sure.


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## naiveonedave

Women hit on me sporadically, not often, but happens.

Did a lot of digging this weekend. Found out no snap chat, misunderstood wife or don't recall the conversation correctly. Need to investigate 1 phone number, but I am 99% sure it is the mother of my kids friend. Fairly sure no burner phone. Key logger is still zero suspicious activity. 

Only lingering question is to wait on VAR and is there a way to get facetime IPAD app history?

Need to postpone VAR in her car, she is getting it detailed friday and this will have her going all thru it looking for stuff that would be damaged by cleaning.

We had a pretty good weekend as a couple.


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## naiveonedave

Wife texts me today asking if I changed the password to our wireless provider website. I had to this to be able to get data on her text usage to help understand if there is anything to worry about. I didn't respond. A few minutes later she texts me, asking why I am I checking up on her.

Is this a red flag in itself or healthy? I don't think I would even comment on her checking up on me.


----------



## bandit.45

naiveonedave said:


> Wife texts me today asking if I changed the password to our wireless provider website. I had to this to be able to get data on her text usage to help understand if there is anything to worry about. I didn't respond. A few minutes later she texts me, asking why I am I checking up on her.
> 
> Is this a red flag in itself or healthy? I don't think I would even comment on her checking up on me.


Ignore her. Watch her. Be patient and let her stew for a while. She'll crack eventually.


----------



## badmemory

naiveonedave said:


> Wife texts me today asking if I changed the password to our wireless provider website. I had to this to be able to get data on her text usage to help understand if there is anything to worry about. I didn't respond. A few minutes later she texts me, asking why I am I checking up on her.
> 
> Is this a red flag in itself or healthy? I don't think I would even comment on her checking up on me.


Not necessarily, but possibly. But if you're not ready to confront, and I don't think you are; I'd come up with a plausible excuse.

At the same time, I'd ask her why this is such a big deal to her? Does she have something to hide?


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## Thor

My wife and I are constantly changing passwords. She'll get on one site to check a bill or something, and she can't remember the password, so she does the "Forgot Password" which results in a new password.

Then I'll get on 6 months later and that old password I wrote down doesn't work! So I change it. Then months later my wife gets on and her new password doesn't work anymore, so she changes it.

Iow, if you forget your password, you end up having to create a new one.

Tell your wife you were looking at when your next phone credit comes up, or you saw an ad on tv for cheaper plans and wanted to see how your current plan compares. Whatever seems logical for your situation, just tell your wife that is what you did.

And ditto asking her why this is such a big deal, and why she would think you're watching her.

Until your last post I was leaning towards her not having an affair, but her suspicions of being watched is a red flag.

Definitely act cool and don't show any suspicions. Keep up your monitoring for a while. We had a few members here who had similar situations to yours who found out their wife was having second thoughts on the marriage but had not been in any affairs. The spying ended up being a good thing because it helped them move their marriage forward and improve things. You may yet find yourself in this situation.


----------



## 2asdf2

naiveonedave said:


> Wife texts me today asking if I changed the password to our wireless provider website. I had to this to be able to get data on her text usage to help understand if there is anything to worry about. I didn't respond. A few minutes later she texts me, asking why I am I checking up on her.
> 
> Is this a red flag in itself or healthy? I don't think I would even comment on her checking up on me.


Why does she need to check the wireless provider website?

Your answer to that will indicate if there is a red flag or not.


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## naiveonedave

I think she may have gotten a copy of the password change email on her IPAD. I think that is how she found it changed.

Anyone have ideas on how to get facetime app history?


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## john1068

naiveonedave said:


> I think she may have gotten a copy of the password change email on her IPAD. I think that is how she found it changed.
> 
> Anyone have ideas on how to get facetime app history?


From within the facetime app select "Recent". If there is no history, backups of facetimes may be in iTunes only if she synced BEFORE deleting the history.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## 1812overture

You have many of the same reasons I came here -- not the frequent GNOs, nor the hysterical bonding, but everything else matches. So, I'm going to take a slightly contrary position and ask what will make you comfortable that she hasn't/isn't having an affair?
Have you been to the sex in marriage sub-forum? A lot of scenarios there sound like yours (and mine). Now, I've checked a bit and found nothing worrisome about my wife's behavior. The clearing history is a bit strange, but maybe she thinks she's clearing cookies and other tracking methods? (And you might be able to determine recent history by accessing a cookie file.)

You have already (possibly) added to the difficulties of the earlier accusation with the password change. I know I wouldn't act all that well to being accused of an affair, though I would respond with every password I have. 

Some here say 50/50 that she is. That means 50/50 she isn't, and I think the likelihood is lower, but not certainly zero. You'll know what the smoking gun is when you find, but have you already decided when you'll stop looking and work from the idea that it isn't an affair, it's a marriage that needs work? 

The reason scientists are still searching for a female Viagra is that often women's desire wanes over time. Add parenting, sports, and life in general, and it's not that rare. It doesn't have to mean an affair.


----------



## weightlifter

Since you are not going var until Friday. Delay delay delay. Plausable explanation required.

Your wife is good with routers? She is one of 30 women in the world.

Edit one plausable: I got hit with a trojan, had to change everything.


----------



## kenmoore14217

naiveonedave said:


> Wife texts me today asking if I changed the password to our wireless provider website. I had to this to be able to get data on her text usage to help understand if there is anything to worry about. I didn't respond. A few minutes later she texts me, asking why I am I checking up on her.
> 
> Is this a red flag in itself or healthy? I don't think I would even comment on her checking up on me.


Red Flag


----------



## 1812overture

kenmoore14217 said:


> Red Flag


Except, he WAS checking up on her. 

Less than a year ago he accused her of having an affair, there's (possibly) some conversation recently about deleting browsing history, then a password that has never changed gets changed. 

it doesn't mean she's not or didn't, but what exactly is the red flag? If she were to respond with "spouses often accuse the other of having an affair when THEY are having an affair themselves"? and Dave reacts, is his reaction a red flag, for her, that he is having an affair?


----------



## naiveonedave

If I had to bet on my situation:
* right now I don't think she is having an affair, but I am doing dilligence to verify. I am 90+% sure of this. The fact I am not 99% is due to issues on the get away weekends. Thanks to those replying to this thread for making think of this possibility and the ramifications of is she is.
* I think there is high probability she either had an EA, a PA or seriously contemplated this in 2012-mid 2013. Gut feel and the warning signs are there. More than 50/50, but that is specualtion and that is why I am here.

Right now I am going dark, trying to find info and then we will see. Thor and weightlifter are steering me on what to do. I am tryiing to follow there advice.

I don't want to falsely accuse, but this is gnawing at me. Kinda feels like I walked in on an inside joke against me. Just my gut feeling.


----------



## bandit.45

Trust your gut. It never fails.


----------



## dogman

bandit.45 said:


> Trust your gut. It never fails.



Dammit! I hate when people say this because it's true. Sometimes you never find out the truth about an old affair and you're just left with a stomach ache for the rest of your life, because the trail went cold.

You can't get a second chance at some of this so do your work now and don't procrastinate. In 5 years you don't want to be still thinking about this crap..trust me!


----------



## 2asdf2

dogman said:


> Dammit! I hate when people say this because it's true. Sometimes you never find out the truth about an old affair and you're just left with a stomach ache for the rest of your life, because the trail went cold.
> 
> You can't get a second chance at some of this so do your work now and don't procrastinate. In 5 years you don't want to be still thinking about this crap..trust me!


I taped an OM admitting to a PA with a some details 35 years after the fact. Not easy, but if it gnaws you enough, you may want to pursue it.


----------



## naiveonedave

1812 - I have not mentioned browser history since the blowup/accusation. I don't know why she thinks looking at the wireless on line stuff is checking up on her, she doesn't have a clue of any of the rest of the stuff I am doing.

Anway, wanted to clarify that


----------



## 1812overture

Ah, well, in that situation, when there's no response to the question about the changed password, my first thought is -- I hope our accounts haven't been hacked.

Strange conclusion that it was you checking up on her. Though, again, you were checking up on her, so maybe she picked up on some other things.


----------



## naiveonedave

figured that snap chat has not been used inappropriately. Have one VAR set up in the house, waiting until Friday for the car, for reasons stated above.


----------



## cool12

naiveonedave said:


> figured that snap chat has not been used inappropriately. Have one VAR set up in the house, waiting until Friday for the car, for reasons stated above.


i hope you get the answers you want soon.
i'd be bothered that the password thing upset her but it's probably nothing.


----------



## naiveonedave

oops, meant facetime in my last post. No evidence, ever, of snap chat on her electronics.


----------



## naiveonedave

still no negative stuff uncovered. Which is good.

As a side note, at the youngers BB game last night, wife went out at half time and came back. Another mother was talking to me and really trying to flirt (eventhough she is married). I was not really flirting back at all, wife kinda ran up and grabbed my hand. Another good sign.


----------



## weightlifter

We could use a win here. Im tellin ya.

Unfortunately its mile 1 of the Daytona 500. Still. SOME good news is... good news.


----------



## RWB

naiveonedave said:


> My situation:
> Both mid 40’s, she is a SAHM/sometimes part time employed, 2 teen boys, heavy in travel sports, lots of time apart due to this.
> ~ 1 year ago, really noticed slide in frequency of any intimacy.
> Starting googling signs of why not intimacy, which led to signs of infidelity. She had them all, these were common:
> •	Lots of GNOs
> •	Phone issues
> •	Deleted internet history
> •	Ton of time on computer and alone after I went to bed
> Before I was smart enough, I confronted about the lack of intimacy and then asked directly are you cheating, probably in April. Response was deer in headlights, you are wrong, you must be cheating, etc. Was not handled well by either of us, led to a fight.
> After confrontation, I noticed slow changes in behavior, more intimacy, more time together. Also put keylogger on computer (which has shown nothing).
> Today we seem to be in a better place all around. We had what looks like a hysterical bonding period over the summer and into the fall. Now 2-3 x per week. Exception: I set up two romantic get away weekends (October and December) that were destroyed by her crappy attitude to me during the weekends. She blames drinking, but I don’t see it that way. She was past tipsy, but not ‘bombed’.
> So what I am wondering:
> •	Did she have an affair?
> •	If so, is it now just underground or is it over?
> •	How do I find out anything without coming across of unreasonably jealous or weak?


Before She was caught, my wife had engaged in multiple LT EAPA affairs. Like you, I suspected, the lack of intimacy, the constant use of phone, computer... etc. 

I too confronted without hard proof. Figured she would ball up and confess out of guilt or shame. 

*HA!*

Rather, she would just put her affair on hold... turn her attention back to me for a while, cover the tracks. What I didn't understand at the time... *the thinking of the cheater.* 

It was no issue to "cool" it for a say 3 or 4 months... because it's not real life anyway. She even said... 1 short email to her AP months later was all it took to re-connect. It's not like they were going to discuss a 401 savings plan to send our daughter to college? 

See the point... not saying your wife is definitely cheating... but... Don't be mistaken that she has to be in constant contact for the affair to be active. My wife even admitted that the "gaps" even made the re-connect that more exciting.


----------



## Chaparral

Just tell your wife, if it comes up again, you didn't know or forgot the password on your acct. And had to change it. Then ask her why she made the checking up comment. Tell her you wanted to look at some other phones or wanted to check other plans.

Tell her your buddy thinks its weird she would assume you were checking up on her.

You can get a pen var from brickstone that works like a pen and you put it in a purse if the ap is at work.

Ask her if she just wants to forget valentines since she torched both your last two romantic weekends. Affair or not your ife has lost that loving feeling.

Get the book MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER, it is designed to bring back relationships, its not a sex manual.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, you have to check each phone number individually and not go by the names with the numbers.


----------



## Thor

Chaparral said:


> Btw, you have to check each phone number individually and not go by the names with the numbers.


Yes, it is worth paying for a lookup service. Cheaters use fake names in the contact list.


----------



## naiveonedave

well i did some digging on the one phone number I couldn't verify. Spokeo came back with private. Called the number from a clean phone from work and a guy answered that I didn't recognize by voice. This number was ~500 texts each way in less than 15 months, but I need to verify the dates, data not available to me right now. Gut isn't happy.


----------



## Thor

Pay for a reverse lookup. I have found no way to get cell numbers for free. You can get a subscription for a month of unlimited lookups, or you can pay per number. You will want to know the real name and address if you confront your wife. Plus the data will open up other paths to investigate.


----------



## Thor

Have you investigated spyware on her phone? There are products which will capture all texts. You have to do a lot of homework to find a product which will do what you really want, and do it invisibly. You also need to know how to install it quickly and properly, so that she doesn't detect it.


----------



## naiveonedave

Any methods to suggest, since Spokeo didn't have it? 

I need to look at the data for that number, I think it has been texted in months.


----------



## naiveonedave

I have tried 3 different services to track this number and come up with unlisted name each time. any ideas? thanks!


----------



## Thor

You might post a specific thread in CWI asking about phone reverse lookup. Someone may have an answer on whether a pay service will crack it for you, or if it is possible for a number to be completely private.

Two or 3 times people have kindly used their paid service to look up a number for me, and every time all the information was there.


----------



## Tobyboy

These two are free sites you might try. 

Namefromphone.com

Tnid.us
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## badmemory

naiveonedave said:


> I have tried 3 different services to track this number and come up with unlisted name each time. any ideas? thanks!


My experience has been, that no matter what paid reverse service you use, there are cell phone numbers that can't be identified; particularly if it is a pre-paid plan.


----------



## 1812overture

naiveonedave said:


> well i did some digging on the one phone number I couldn't verify. Spokeo came back with private. Called the number from a clean phone from work and a guy answered that I didn't recognize by voice. This number was ~500 texts each way in less than 15 months, but I need to verify the dates, data not available to me right now. Gut isn't happy.


Does the timing of the texts messages jive with your own possible timeline? I know you can do the math, but that's more than one a day.

Did they stop in line with your suspicions?


----------



## naiveonedave

I won't have access to the data until tonight, I plan on figuring that part out. But the amount of texts to a dude I don't know isn't making me happy.


----------



## Thor

Before you go off the deep end, consider that the phone may belong to a couple or a family. My wife had some calls to a number I didn't recognize, so my sister from across the country called it. A man answered. So I paid for the lookup and it is the husband of a coworker of my wife. But the phone is his wife's, and it is on a family plan in his name. Further investigation, and calls, verified it is his wife's phone. He has his own phone, and I suppose he simply answered his wife's phone when it rang that one time my sister called.

In fact that happens here frequently. If a phone rings, anyone nearby may answer it.

Do your investigation but don't go ballistic yet.


----------



## naiveonedave

good advice. thanks for keeping me grounded.


----------



## bfree

naiveonedave said:


> I have tried 3 different services to track this number and come up with unlisted name each time. any ideas? thanks!


Burner phone


----------



## Graywolf2

bfree said:


> Burner phone


I thought exactly the same thing. But then I thought, if the OM was that careful, he would advise the WW to do the same.


----------



## naiveonedave

the number is very similar to most of the folks I know around here, same area code and same next 3 digits. Not sure if you can get a burner like that. 

My wife is not tech savvy, so she may have been careless... 

When I got the text data, I was pushed for time and did this:
1. Copy to spreadsheet
2. pivot table to count # of texts by phone number texted.
then ran out of time, other than to copy the phone number and # of texts to a quick not to my work. I need to get the dates and see if it clears this up. The dudes name is not the name of any of my wifes friends husbands, at least not that I am aware of.


----------



## Differentguy

Sorry I haven't read every post. Have you tried Free Cell Number Search | Spy Dialer


----------



## Tobyboy

What kind of phone does she have? Is it passcode locked?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Find someone to cold call the number from phone that the subscriber will not recognize. He, if it is an AP, may say his first name. At the very least you will ge the gender.


----------



## naiveonedave

I did that from a clean phone at work and got his 1st name. By random luck, i asked for XXXX and he said this is.


----------



## bfree

Graywolf2 said:


> I thought exactly the same thing. But then I thought, if the OM was that careful, he would advise the WW to do the same.


Maybe he did and she didn't listen. That or Dave hasn't found it yet.


----------



## soccermom2three

I'm not home right now so I can't look it up. There is website called something like Spydialer, when you put in the phone number it goes straight to the persons voicemail. The phone does not ring at all for the person you're calling. That way you can hear the voice and the name of the owner of the phone. 

Maybe someone here know what I'm talking about and post the link.


----------



## 3putt

soccermom2three said:


> I'm not home right now so I can't look it up. There is website called something like Spydialer, when you put in the phone number it goes straight to the persons voicemail. The phone does not ring at all for the person you're calling. That way you can hear the voice and the name of the owner of the phone.
> 
> Maybe someone here know what I'm talking about and post the link.


I had forgotten about that.

Free Cell Number Search | Spy Dialer


----------



## weightlifter

Spydialer for free alerts people. Dont


----------



## RWB

weightlifter said:


> Spydialer for free alerts people. Don't.


I had forgot about SpyDialer... it my alert something (a call came in) that all... but it does not leave any phone number to "trace" to incoming call. If you dial it from a "clean" phone... even better.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

If they are hiding and on edge it is not a good service.
It leaves a recording telling them that they have been spy dialed. If you are trying to be subtle, if they google the name, it'll make them dive deeper underground.


----------



## soccermom2three

Yes it does leave a goofy message on the voicemail.

ETA: Hmm, I just dialed my own cellphone and it didn't leave a voicemail. Just says I had a recent call from Reno, NV and the phone number.


----------



## Thor

Spydialer does not always go to voicemail.


----------



## Differentguy

weightlifter said:


> Spydialer for free alerts people. Dont


Thanks. Didn't know it alerted people.


----------



## naiveonedave

Update: 
Found the phone issue to be friends that switched phone plans. Have proof of that that is air tight. Not an issue.

Nothing on VAR nor key logger.

Bought and read MMSLP. working on working out daily. Interesting thought. I was big into Atkins Diet about 2-4 years ago and was down about 20 lbs from my current. With hindsight, I think my wife sabotaged that diet plan at the grocery store. Fits with some of the reading in MMSLP.

Wife had a blow up over me wanting sex. I sent her the link from the SIM board thread on why men need it. She seems to buy in, but there is still too much resentment on both sides right now. We are figuring out how to MC. 

I am pushing 99% sure no current affair, still on the fence about last year.


----------



## weightlifter

Hoping for ya bro!


----------



## kristin2349

Thor said:


> A pen VAR seems dangerous to me. Don't women know which objects in their purse are theirs? Wouldn't they notice this pen is not like the ones they usually buy? Wouldn't they notice they have never seen this one before?
> 
> A pen VAR is a super idea in the home or office, though. Nobody would suspect it, they would assume it is just another pen which showed up.



I would notice a pen in my handbag/purse in a heartbeat. I spend a lot on my bags and nothing like an ink stain to trash a bag. So I never keep one in my handbag (no wire hangers in my closet either)

Even if you don't carry a designer bag most women are aware of what is in the bag and where it's kept inside the bag.


----------



## weightlifter

Anyone have one of those pen vars can post a pic of what it looks like? Perhaps the guts can be reassembled into something else.


----------



## Chaparral

kristin2349 said:


> I would notice a pen in my handbag/purse in a heartbeat. I spend a lot on my bags and nothing like an ink stain to trash a bag. So I never keep one in my handbag (no wire hangers in my closet either)
> 
> Even if you don't carry a designer bag most women are aware of what is in the bag and where it's kept inside the bag.


I must be living in an alternate universe. I am trying to remember a woman that could find a guitar in her purse. Even old purses are full. LOL


----------



## MattMatt

weightlifter said:


> Anyone have one of those pen vars can post a pic of what it looks like? Perhaps the guts can be reassembled into something else.


Voice recorder in a pen MQ-77 / Memory 256 MB / Time of recordings 9 h to 36 h / Voice activated recording system || Spy recorder / DVR: Amazon.co.uk: Office Products


----------



## naiveonedave

Update - still no signs of any current affair.

Been going to town on MMSL, built a good work out plan and feel better already. Wife knows I am reading it and I think she has skimmed it and is not happy about what it says. She has made a few snippy comments. "its still my body", "I hope this is only for good purposes", etc.

We went on a date night dancing this weekend to a place we hadn't been in awhile. It must be where the 40 somethings go. 2x I got hit on hard, while she was in the restroom. She was not happy about that at all.

Headed to some MC in a week, primarily, imo to deal with resentment issues we both have. me mainly sex, her my supposed obsession with it... So we willl see.

Thanks for all the comments on my thread. i have learned tons from you and I appreciate it!


----------



## weightlifter

WEIRD how those rules change after age 35. I was invisible in my 20s. Now in a low status job I get hit on.

Non-fat close to that 1.4 ratio male 6' with hair I guess.

Maybe another weekish may want to ramp down the checking then do another audit at another time in the future. Never stop looking for PAST evidence should it come up.


----------



## tom67

naiveonedave said:


> Update - still no signs of any current affair.
> 
> Been going to town on MMSL, built a good work out plan and feel better already. Wife knows I am reading it and I think she has skimmed it and is not happy about what it says. She has made a few snippy comments. "its still my body", "I hope this is only for good purposes", etc.
> 
> We went on a date night dancing this weekend to a place we hadn't been in awhile. It must be where the 40 somethings go. 2x I got hit on hard, while she was in the restroom. She was not happy about that at all.
> 
> Headed to some MC in a week, primarily, imo to deal with resentment issues we both have. me mainly sex, her my supposed obsession with it... So we willl see.
> 
> Thanks for all the comments on my thread. i have learned tons from you and I appreciate it!


Your w shouldn't have seen the mmslp book that was for you.
But anyway good that a few women hit on you women want a guy who is desired.
It will show your w YOU HAVE OPTIONS.
Did she jump your bones that night?
Stuff like that gets their limbic brain going into overdrive.
Keep it up and keep reading.


----------



## naiveonedave

she got snippy when we got home, she was feeling insecure, I could tell on the 3 minute car ride home.

We both woke up at 5am and she practically raped me.


----------



## tom67

naiveonedave said:


> she got snippy when we got home, she was feeling insecure, I could tell on the 3 minute car ride home.
> 
> We both woke up at 5am and she practically raped me.


:smthumbup:


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: new here and confused*



naiveonedave said:


> she got snippy when we got home, she was feeling insecure, I could tell on the 3 minute car ride home.
> 
> We both woke up at 5am and she practically raped me.


That's the power of knowledge my friend.


----------



## CaptainLOTO

naiveonedave said:


> This number was ~500 texts each way in less than 15 months, but I need to verify the dates, data not available to me right now. Gut isn't happy.


If you have access to her phone then this number should absolutely be saved in her contacts. If its not there, then she removed it for a reason. My approach would be to ask her about it. If she asks if you were checking on her say yep, you were concerned months ago (she already knows you were) and that you just want to close out one nagging question from that time - who was this that she texted 500 times and why aren't they in your contact list now. Then if you don't believe her, make her call the number and say hello to whoever answers with the phone on speaker. (That's how I'd handle it but I'm sure others would disagree.

Alternatively, at this point, you're getting some really good responses from her. If you can, just put this in the rearview mirror, just be happy that things are improving.


----------



## Machiavelli

naiveonedave said:


> she got snippy when we got home, she was feeling insecure, I could tell on the 3 minute car ride home.
> 
> We both woke up at 5am and she practically raped me.


yuk yuk yuk

Funny how that works, ain't it. 

they love drama and instability

Women are not men.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> yuk yuk yuk
> 
> Funny how that works, ain't it.
> 
> they love drama and instability
> 
> Women are not men.


:iagree:
Now get ready for the sh!t tests otherwise known fitness tests

Marital Fitness Testing 101: true confessions of a fitness-testing housewife | Sunshine Mary


----------



## naiveonedave

to captain-
The digging to the 500 texts: I know whose phone it was, a female friend. the 500 texts occured in less than 10 days, they were planning a large kids party by text message. Then the friend changed cell plans and numbers. I got verification through my son's phone. He had the femaile friends number stored in his phone as the old number (the friend is the mother of his best friend). As my kid and her kid are together so much, we sometimes text our kids friend if the our kid doesn't respond fast enough.


----------



## naiveonedave

Her 1st response on MMSL was that I should stop reading it (it is on my Kindle and i was playing some stupid game. When she came into the room, I hid the screen from her view on purpsoe as a tease. She then said I should not read what I was reading....) So I immediately opened MMSL up, after she saw I was playing chess. She got maaaad..... Yuk Yuk.

Whoever gave the advice for MMSL i owe too much to....


----------



## tom67

naiveonedave said:


> Her 1st response on MMSL was that I should stop reading it (it is on my Kindle and i was playing some stupid game. When she came into the room, I hid the screen from her view on purpsoe as a tease. She then said I should not read what I was reading....) So I immediately opened MMSL up, after she saw I was playing chess. She got maaaad..... Yuk Yuk.
> 
> Whoever gave the advice for MMSL i owe too much to....


Cool as a cucumber


----------



## Blindsided13

I hired a PI, it is expensive, but it was worth my piece of mind to know when my husband walked out on us he moved right into another woman's apartment. He still is living there, and still lying about it. At least I know the truth.


----------



## bfree

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> Now get ready for the sh!t tests otherwise known fitness tests
> 
> Marital Fitness Testing 101: true confessions of a fitness-testing housewife | Sunshine Mary


Fitness tests can suck but its awesome when you pass them.


----------



## Machiavelli

bfree said:


> Fitness tests can suck but its awesome when you pass them.


Only if you want more sex.


----------



## Cre8ify

And the fitness tests come hard when she is feeling insecure. Think back if this is what you were meaning by "snippy". My wife hates MMSL with a passion.


----------



## naiveonedave

this morning she texts me and asks what I am learning in my new "book". My reply:
1. I need to get into better shape (which is true, this whole enchillada is probably the kick in the tail I need)
2. I deserive 10 second kisses every day. 

I didn't tell her that I am learning that I need more sex than she is currently willing and pity sex shouldn't count.


----------



## Machiavelli

naiveonedave said:


> this morning she texts me and asks what I am learning in my new "book". My reply:
> 1. I need to get into better shape (which is true, this whole enchillada is probably the kick in the tail I need)
> 2. I deserive 10 second kisses every day.
> 
> I didn't tell her that I am learning that I need more sex than she is currently willing and pity sex shouldn't count.


Next time she asks, tell you haven't had time to finish it and you've decided it's kid stuff and stupid. That's what she wants to hear. Then finish it and implement.

See, women like great physiques (they usual deny this) but they don't like guys who have to work at it. They're biologically programmed to seek the genes of those lucky few who have that physique without work. Never let her catch you posing in the mirror.

In the same way, they don't like it that guy's get knowledge like MMSL imparted from a book or website. That's manipulation. However, if you somehow are a natural at appealing to women, then that's all okay. See how that works?

Shut up about the book and her hamster will decide you're a natural after a while, and that's the way you want it.


----------



## Chris989

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> Now get ready for the sh!t tests otherwise known fitness tests
> 
> Marital Fitness Testing 101: true confessions of a fitness-testing housewife | Sunshine Mary


I find the behaviour described in that blog just bloody odd.

I have to say, I detest women like that. The faux "oh look at me, I'm just a weak little woman who needs spanking by her strong husband".

Seriously, she needs to get over herself.


----------



## weightlifter

Live it. I got some and lost some, even before I ever heard of them.


----------



## Acabado

Machiavelli said:


> Next time she asks, tell you haven't had time to finish it and you've decided it's kid stuff and stupid. That's what she wants to hear. Then finish it and implement.


:iagree:


----------



## naiveonedave

Update - still nothing on the VARs or key logger. No burner, no odd texts, any odd text #s from the past 18 months have been scrutinized and found not a problem....

Due to on-going issues over stuff like the romantic weekend debacles, we are in MC tonight.

WOrking on the MMSLP. Need to be less whiny, which is the #1 thing I am working on, other than working out. Thanks for your continued support.


----------



## Chris989

Sounds good! 

Thanks for the update.


----------



## weightlifter

Hoping for the best for you. May want to back down to 1/4 time on the snooping at this point. More like audits at this point.

She may be innocent.
She may be Badcos wife.

NEVER close your eyes.


----------



## naiveonedave

update - 1st MC.

I am now very confident she is not having an affair, 99.9999% sure. She is seeing that I am improving myself and want a better relationship. Seeing things I can change to be more manly. She doesn't realize it, but she is asking me to be more like MMSLP.

Got raped again last night . Best foray in quite some time.


----------



## Chaparral

naiveonedave said:


> update - 1st MC.
> 
> I am now very confident she is not having an affair, 99.9999% sure. She is seeing that I am improving myself and want a better relationship. Seeing things I can change to be more manly. She doesn't realize it, but she is asking me to be more like MMSLP.
> 
> Got raped again last night . Best foray in quite some time.


Mmslp just might win again.


Never whine


----------



## tom67

Chaparral said:


> Mmslp just might win again.
> 
> 
> Never whine


Chap it rarely fails


----------



## naiveonedave

I am somewhat shocked by how fast this is going down. I gained a few lbs at xmas, started working out. Caught on to MMSLP before my first post and have been at self improvement since the day I started reading. 

Didn't think the little bit of extra work I put in would be so effective. I also think it help me see clearly how much BS is out there that men listen to. Kind of an outrage if you ask me.


----------



## illwill

Machiavelli said:


> Next time she asks, tell you haven't had time to finish it and you've decided it's kid stuff and stupid. That's what she wants to hear. Then finish it and implement.
> 
> See, women like great physiques (they usual deny this) but they don't like guys who have to work at it. They're biologically programmed to seek the genes of those lucky few who have that physique without work. Never let her catch you posing in the mirror.
> 
> In the same way, they don't like it that guy's get knowledge like MMSL imparted from a book or website. That's manipulation. However, if you somehow are a natural at appealing to women, then that's all okay. See how that works?
> 
> Shut up about the book and her hamster will decide you're a natural after a while, and that's the way you want it.


Mac is a pimp!


----------



## naiveonedave

figured I would give an update. 

Implementing my MAP. In the best shape I have been in years, but a work in progress. She is responding to this in a very positive way. Seem to be past a lot of the sh!t tests. Sex is frequent and partially initiated by her.

No signs of any red flags. I think I either caught her before she had an affair or it was already over, will never know.

Really cut down on monitoring, but still keeping one eye open, so to speak.


----------



## Machiavelli

naiveonedave said:


> figured I would give an update.
> 
> Implementing my MAP. *In the best shape I have been in years*, but a work in progress. She is responding to this in a very positive way. Seem to be past a lot of the sh!t tests. Sex is frequent and partially initiated by her.


Men just do not understand the power of having a physique that women respond to viscerally (even while the women deny it's got anything to do with what they are feeling). It's kind of scary, in a way.



naiveonedave said:


> No signs of any red flags. I think I either caught her before she had an affair or it was already over, will never know.
> 
> Really cut down on monitoring, but still keeping one eye open, so to speak.


Good. Really good.


----------



## naiveonedave

I am shocked at how much this is playing out like MMSLP said it would. Right down to her starting to do sit ups as I was doing them last night.


----------



## happyman64

Dave

You and Mach have inspired me to go home and workout in front of my wife this evening.

But I am worried that she will sit on my chest to add resistance and consider that her workout for the evening. 

HM


----------



## Machiavelli

happyman64 said:


> But I am worried that she will sit on my chest to add resistance and consider that her workout for the evening.


If she sits on your chest, just slide her down to your crotch and you'll both get a workout.


----------



## happyman64

How did I know you would respond like this....

If she resists I will tell her that my friend Mach suggested this alternative exercise.


----------



## bandit.45

Still....

Marriage should not be this hard of work. Either a person wants to be in your presence or they don't. 

I don't like feeling like I have to fvcking earn my partner's love.

Takes all the enjoyment out of it. 

I can go and get a good dog who will love me and not require me to jump through sh!t tests and hoops. Only thing missing would be the sex.


----------



## Nucking Futs

bandit.45 said:


> Still....
> 
> Marriage should not be this hard of work. Either a person wants to be in your presence or they don't.
> 
> I don't like feeling like I have to fvcking earn my partner's love.
> 
> Takes all the enjoyment out of it.
> 
> I can go and get a good dog who will love me and not require me to jump through sh!t tests and hoops. *Only thing missing would be the sex.*


One would hope.


----------



## 3putt

Nucking Futs said:


> One would hope.


LOL


----------



## Thor

bandit.45 said:


> I can go and get a good dog who will love me and not require me to jump through sh!t tests and hoops.


The best dog I ever owned was a Malamute/wolf mix. He challenged me at every opportunity for Alpha status. One might call it **** tests. But it made our relationship fun and close. We spent many hours and many miles on mountain trails.


----------



## Chris989

I have a close relationship with my/our dog and it doesn't ever "challenge" me for "Alpha" status.

Perhaps it's because it's a dog, perhaps I am so incredibly "alpha" it doesn't think it has a chance. I would be proud to be so amazingly alpha that a dog didn't challenge me.

Who knows?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

My cat often challenges me for Alpha status. Sadly, she often wins.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Cats don't give a f*ck about anything


----------



## the guy

Ya they do.

licking them selves


----------



## bandit.45

Nucking Futs said:


> One would hope.


Why do you have to be a dumbass? Dumbass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

bandit.45 said:


> Why do you have to be a dumbass? Dumbass.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

