# what I learned as OM #4- Can it be prevented??



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Before I get into my next installment, I just want to say thank you to everyone that has entered into the discussions and debates. I knew going into this that there would be some hate and disgust as well as disagreement and even some overt contempt towards me. I understand this is a sensitive topic and there are some raw emotions on all sides. 

I feel like I need to make a little reminder that this is all from my perspective and my opinions based on my experiences and things I have picked up and seen in the decades since my experiences as an OM. 

I do not claim be any kind of expert or that my experiences apply to all situations of infidelity and while one of my primary objectives was/is to warn that this can happen in seemingly normal and average households with seemingly normal and average men and women, I am not saying that ALL people will cheat at any one particular time or set of circumstances. Perhaps this is my own naivete, but I am deep down an old softy and romantic and I believe that most people go through their lives and marriages and never commit adultery, even despite some golden opportunities or even despite troubles in their own marriages. My thesis is that no one is immune or incapable and that we are all human and that it 'can' happen to us ….. even if we believe to our cores that it cannot. So please no more debate on if any one individual will or won't cheat. 

So anyway moving forward, what do I as a former OM believe are some things that could have prevented those events from happening? 

Well some things seem pretty obvious but from other angles not so much. 

What makes this difficult is as I and some other posters have made clear throughout this series is that cheating is a conscious choice that people decide to do. 

WWs do not simply fall into bed with other men do to magic pick-up lines or pixie dust or fool-proof seduction methods. They weigh the pros and cons, devise alibis and cover stories, make their interests and objectives known and then cover their tracks. That is all very conscious and methodical. 

As such, if someone makes the decisions to hook up with someone else, other than chaining them up in the basement, there really isn't anything a pBH can do to stop it. The best he can hope for is he can foster an environment and marital dynamic where she is less likely to want to, and the risk would be too great to risk everything else for some NSA sex. 

There are countless books and websites on "Affair Proofing" a marriage. Knock yourself out reading those and hope for the best. 

What I will share however is what I see that may have prevented my WWs from dropping their clothes onto my bedroom floor. Again these are my experiences and perspectives and opinions only. This is not marital counseling or affair proofing. 

1. Don't be a drunk, abusive, neglectful, lazy, fat, slob with ED/PE and not lift a finger to fix things or try to meet her needs. 

Well duh. But I'm telling you, it's for real. There are lots of dudes out there that once the ring is on the finger and kids are screaming and filling their diapers that check out of the relationship and delve into video games and couch surfing and getting fat. Don't be that guy. 

Here's the thing ,,,, Once Sven at hot yoga starts taking his shirt off showing his abz and giving her some special attention, she will start going through mental gymnastics and checklists and priority assesments to determine if it's worth the risks and to justify riding him like a big white horse in her mind. 

No one man can be perfect and completely fulfill all her wants and needs at all times. But don't give mental gymnastics and quest for justification any more ammunition than necessary. Always strive to make the risks greater than the rewards. 

2. One of the most critical things any spouse (man or woman) can do is set very clear and firm, reasonable boundaries and then ENFORCE them. And by boundaries I mean things like how much contact with ex BFs or prior crushes, time spent with "friends" of the opposite sex (especially alone time even with seemingly innocent activities and projects) Boundaries on personal conversation and interaction. Boundaries on social media and late night chats. Boundaries on discussions with personal relationship and sexual/romantic issues. Boundaries on time and activities with girlfriends that are cheaters or cheater-sympathizers or single women that are out playing the field and hooking up with various dudes. 

3. closely related to #2 but do not be afraid to confront and address boundary violations or incursions into the Neutral Zone. Address minor incursions and violations immediately so that they do not become increasingly bigger violations.

4. Set clear boundaries with other men and enforce them. Do not be afraid to confront other men that are behaving inappropriately with or around your W and make clear that their behavior and interaction is not appropriate with a married woman and will not be accepted or tolerated. 

Forum rules probably prohibit me from advocating violence or anything illegal and you do not want to run afoul of the law as that can also be used against you when looking for justifications to hook up with Sven from yoga. But one does not need to be PC when protecting your home and family. It is better to thought of as "controlling" (and yes, you WILL be accused of it) than to be cuckolded. 

Here's something I should have made more clear in my OM post, OM are in it for quick and easy NSA poon. If you make it difficult and complicated for them and give them consequences, 95% will scatter like roaches in the light. 

Do not be afraid to confront OM and make your boundaries and intentions clear. 

5. Understand that women are no less sexual than men and accommodate their sexuality accordingly. Women's sexuality is different than men's and they have different triggers and launch sequences and their sexuality is more influenced and effected by other forces. But their sexuality is not "less." and they are not less horny, not less sexually responsive are not less enticed and tempted by variety and novelty than men. 

To that, don't be a sexual dud or stick in the mud. If you have ED/PE or any kind of performance issue, for the love of all that is holy, SEEK HELP and address it and work on it. Do not just sit and play video games and get fat thinking that you'll be able to get it up next week, next month, next year and all will be well. 

One of my primary WWs had a BH with PE (30 seconds max) and she came to my house anywhere from a few times a week to monthly or so for FOUR YEARS. He didn't even try so she stopped trying as well. 

The take away here is do not fool yourself into thinking that married women with children are any less sexual than men and so it is ok to be a lazy lover. 

6. The reverse of that is do not think women are any MORE moral or ethical or sweet and pure and innocent than men. Women may have been socialized to be care givers and be 'nice' to people and they may be less prone to physical aggression than men. But they are no more moral, ethical or any less self-serving or less entitled or less likely to be crappy than men. If you smell a rat, look for a rat and the rat may be her. 

7. Never never never sacrifice or abdicate your sexuality as a man for domestic comfort and stability. Yes, you will need to step up to the plate and clean the house, wash dishes, change diapers, do midnight feedings, patch the roof, mow the lawn ----- that is called being an adult and being a parent. 

But don't turn into the nanny and the maid. Quoting Athol Kay from "Married Man Sex Life" "women desire the lord of the manner, not the butler." Be a partner in domestic life but don't put your virility and sexuality and masculinity in the cedar chest with mothballs. Stay fit and firm. Dress sharp. Keep yourself well groomed and styled. And continue to date and flirt and show physical affection and words of love and affirmation and continue to be a sexual being. Don't put your sexuality on the shelf. Expect and foster a marital sex life even if there are kids and bills and leaky fawcetts. 

Remain a fit and virile and sexually viable male. Don't hit on or overtly flirt with other women, but leave no doubt that in the event of her blowing up the marriage, that you will have other options and opportunities and that you can walk away and replace her. 

I know that sounds harsh and I know I will get hate mail but I guarantee you that my WWs had no doubt that if she got busted that their BHs would be there rubbing their feet and begging them to stay. 

They really had nothing to lost by riding me like a stolen horse because they knew their BHs were whipped and may yell and pout, but they also knew they would not leave and replace them. 

Assuming a BH is not an actual abuser or chronically unemployed drunkard, nothing will stop a WW in her tracks faster than knowing he will walk away and replace her with a younger, prettier woman the moment she steps out. 

Harsh and uncomfortable. But true. 

Again, these are examples based on my personal experiences and not a comprehensive affair-proofing plan. 

If my WW's BHs had done those things, I would not have stood a chance. Like I said, most were better looking and more financially successful than me. I offered fun and games with very low risk. 

If they had offered fun and games but also had a high degree of risk, they would not have given me a second glance.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Crap I can't count. I meant it to be #5 and I can't seem to edit it. 

Can a thread title be edited?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Crap I can't count. I meant it to be #5 and I can't seem to edit it.
> 
> Can a thread title be edited?


It was different enough that I got it but there is probably a way to change the title.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> that you will have other options and opportunities and that you can walk away and replace her.


More important that her knowing it is that you know it. If you just can't live without her, she's going to know it and it will chip away her respect for you. One of the last things they need to believe is, "he ain't going anywhere".


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

May I ask how many chapters you have planned for this book? While I'm at it, may I ask why you think your experiences warrant publication?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> May I ask how many chapters you have planned for this book? While I'm at it, may I ask why you think your experiences warrant publication?


 C'mon @Blondilocks, it's an open forum, he has as much right to post/publish as anyone. I don't necessarily agree with everything he's posting but I'm glad he's posting it and thank him for that. I think there is a lot of good info in there. If you disagree with him completely just view it as a glimpse into the mind of someone who thinks different than you. If that doesn't work just block him or don't read the threads.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> C'mon @Blondilocks, it's an open forum, he has as much right to post/publish as anyone. I don't necessarily agree with everything he's posting but I'm glad he's posting it and thank him for that. I think there is a lot of good info in there. If you disagree with him completely just view it as a glimpse into the mind of someone who thinks different than you. If that doesn't work just block him or don't read the threads.


I wasn't complaining. They are legitimate questions. I don't want to bother reading all of the threads if this is going to be an ongoing serial. And, asking him his motivation is legitimate as his history doesn't indicate he has much concern for his fellow man. So why, now?

So, go chastise someone else. :moon:


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

It can be prevented.
Not with flowers and sweet pillow talk tho....


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> I wasn't complaining. They are legitimate questions. I don't want to bother reading all of the threads if this is going to be an ongoing serial. And, asking him his motivation is legitimate as his history doesn't indicate he has much concern for his fellow man. So why, now?
> 
> So, go chastise someone else. :moon:


:lol:

Made me chuckle!


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Interesting series...

I think the key takeaway here is:

Don't be lazy. Don't be lazy taking care of your body...your house...your career...and your woman/man...
Be vigilant. So many come here with dead bedrooms or cheating partners and want answers. Answers they might not like to hear about (see #1). Yes there are simply bad partners out there that are going to do whatever they want. But I'm guessing most aren't and by the time they've gotten to the point where they are willing to entertain "mental gymnastics" it's too late...they've been frustrated for too long and checked out. Pay attention to the signs. They're often not overt. When they are overt then *really* pay attention because that's often the last straw and a desperation move.

Just my 2 cents...


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## Imajerk17 (Apr 10, 2018)

I hate to say it but I think oldshirt is right. Everything, from my own painful experience in not leading a relationship properly, to observing what other people really do, to even being hit on a couple of times myself, corroborates a lot of what he is saying.

I am thinking of a night that happened a long while ago. I was out with a couple people from meetup, one who brought along a couple of friends who didn't know each other beforehand. So two women and two guys and myself (who pulled away from the group over the course of the evening). The two women had a serious significant other each--towards the beginning ot the evening they both presented themselves as happily coupled. One was a nurse the other was a teacher I think. One of the guys presented himself as a devoted family man. Nothing special, just imagine a a 40 year-old dad with thinning hair and a bit of middle-age spread and who was working a 9-5 that sounded pretty typical. And the other was gay--I think he was a hair designer or something like that. I don't think he was rich. You can guess what ended up happening after a few hours of talking dancing and drinking. 

I bring up this situation because it isn't so unique. It is astounding how adaptable people are. One moment she is the intellectual 8th grade English teacher who is into yoga and leading a healthy lifestyle, the next moment she is doing shots with this dude with more ink on him than in Staples making these crude jokes.

I have no doubt that this doesn't apply to every woman. But then it does happen more often than I ever would have thought. Meanwhile, not every woman is having late nights out "with friends" at bars.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Imajerk17 said:


> I hate to say it but I think oldshirt is right. Everything, from my own painful experience in not leading a relationship properly, to observing what other people really do, to even being hit on a couple of times myself, corroborates a lot of what he is saying.
> 
> I am thinking of a night that happened a long while ago. I was out with a couple people from meetup, one who brought along a couple of friends who didn't know each other beforehand. So two women and two guys and myself (who pulled away from the group over the course of the evening). The two women had a serious significant other each--towards the beginning ot the evening they both presented themselves as happily coupled. One was a nurse the other was a teacher I think. One of the guys presented himself as a devoted family man. Nothing special, just imagine a a 40 year-old dad with thinning hair and a bit of middle-age spread and who was working a 9-5 that sounded pretty typical. And the other was gay--I think he was a hair designer or something like that. I don't think he was rich. You can guess what ended up happening after a few hours of talking dancing and drinking.
> 
> ...


That teacher is all about appearances. Though she also has no boundaries. Thus her behavior in the bar.
She felt safe enough there that she let her inner **** out. No one from work, her church, neighborhood
was there to catch her acting out.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I'm following the series with interest. Doesn't mean I have to agree with everything, but it's worth thinking about. 

I've never been the OM, and I don't think I've ever been cheated on by either of my wives. However, I do have a perspective: as a MC, I have listened to a LOT of WW (and WHs of course) talking about what happened. (Of course, what they say is their version, I know that, and I don't literally believe everything I hear). 



oldshirt said:


> 1. Don't be a drunk, abusive, neglectful, lazy, fat, slob with ED/PE and not lift a finger to fix things or try to meet her needs.


Indeed. Try not to act like a teenage boy in the house is another way to put it. *Neither a badly behaved one, nor a well behaved one.* Not a boy at all. 

Like, you don't leave your stuff lying all around for her to clear up, and equally, your reason for clearing it up is not because she told you to. It just needs doing. 

Honestly, it seems absurd for me to even have to say this, and I'd like to think nobody here needs to hear it. But the evidence I see every working day tells me otherwise. Maybe Freud was right. In relationships, people can regress and start treating their partner as if they were mommy or daddy. They are either slavishly obedient, trying to earn favour, or they are ill-behaved rude kids. In neither case does it seem like they really know their partner, as a person, at all. 

*And that "not being known at all" is something that can drive a woman into the arms of an OM. *


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I actually find myself appreciated what @oldshirt is attempting here.

I'm personally offended by the behavior that purchased the knowledge but I appreciate the sharing of the knowledge gained by experience.

I don't think highly of my past but knowledge was gained.

Thank you @oldshirt


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I actually find myself appreciated what @oldshirt is attempting here.
> 
> I'm personally offended by the behavior that purchased the knowledge but I appreciate the sharing of the knowledge gained by experience.
> 
> ...


Appreciating.....

Stupid autocorrect 😡😡😡😡


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## Imajerk17 (Apr 10, 2018)

oldtruck said:


> That teacher is all about appearances. Though she also has no boundaries. Thus her behavior in the bar.
> She felt safe enough there that she let her inner **** out. No one from work, her church, neighborhood
> was there to catch her acting out.


I agree with all of this. And something likewise can be said about the so-called family man in my post too. But as much as I would like to say that people who act like that are that rare though, I don't think I can say that.

I think the thing that stood out for me though, is this: It really could have been most anyone. Of course what they did was awful. In that regard though I don't think any of the 4 of them are that unusual though. Which makes it all the sadder. It all happened gradually over a few hours of dancing and too much drinking. People kept the boundaries in place at first but as the late evening went on those boundaries eroded away. Small talk grew to flirting which went to hugging and kissing.

Now, with that said, I don't know what happened after Last Call--whether each of the 4 of them went their separate ways after or if any of them went home together.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

While I think some of the things you say are very true, I think you’d be better served if you cut the red pill BS. It’s nonsense, and so is Athol Kay. True that you cannot affair-proof a relationship, but it’s also true that nothing you can do including everything on this list can create someone that will cheat on you. You may move the odds a few percentage points in your favour, but that’s about it. The fact is, cheaters are not made or unmade by anything anyone but the cheater themselves.

Yes, most women like sex and yes most women don’t like wishy-washy partners. 

But I am no different.

Cut the crap, distill your message, and focus on what you’re trying to say.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

IUsedToBeMarduk said:


> While I think some of the things you say are very true, I think you’d be better served if you cut the red pill BS. It’s nonsense, and so is Athol Kay. True that you cannot affair-proof a relationship, but it’s also true that nothing you can do including everything on this list can create someone that will cheat on you. You may move the odds a few percentage points in your favour, but that’s about it. The fact is, cheaters are not made or unmade by anything anyone but the cheater themselves.
> 
> Yes, most women like sex and yes most women don’t like wishy-washy partners.
> 
> ...


Hey! Good to see you back! I was wondering what happened to you.:smile2:


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Hey! Good to see you back! I was wondering what happened to you.:smile2:


Thanks man, you too!

It's been a long and winding road the past few years but all is well. Glad to be back.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> Try not to act like a teenage boy in the house is another way to put it. *Neither a badly behaved one, nor a well behaved one.* Not a boy at all.


I can only imagine (because I have said, hear my friends say it, heard co-workers say it, heard it said on TV so it is unbelievably common) how many times you heard "I feel like I'm raising another child" or words to the same effect.



Laurentium said:


> *And that "not being known at all" is something that can drive a woman into the arms of an OM. *


I'm just quoting this one for truth. There was a thread here last weekend by a woman complaining about her husband's general neglect. Among her many complaints, one was about his sorry gift-giving and that he never put any thought or effort into it. Some people argued the "it's the thought that counts" adage and she should be grateful for whatever he did, but no woman enjoys realizing that her husband doesn't know her at all and never made any effort to notice. There's no excuse for claiming to be bad at selecting presents. To claim it is just being lazy.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> *And that "not being known at all" is something that can drive a woman into the arms of an OM. *


From the business I was in, I learned that women married to drunks, abusers, EDs, ignoreers, cheaters, et cetera, do not cheat until they have lost romantic interest and respect for their spouse. Ask the chicks if you don't believe it. I think I can make a case for this even for the serial cheaters who won't be true to any one man. BTW, the women who were hot to trot in the early years but now has lost interest, it may be a medical reason but most likely she's lost interest in you and vulnerable to have her mine shaft reopened by some new prospector.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

:moon::toast:


Blondilocks said:


> I wasn't complaining. They are legitimate questions. I don't want to bother reading all of the threads if this is going to be an ongoing serial. And, asking him his motivation is legitimate as his history doesn't indicate he has much concern for his fellow man. So why, now?
> 
> So, go chastise someone else. :moon:


 My apologies. It sure sounded like you were chastising him and I wasn't chastising you, I've got too much respect for you to do that. If I did chastise somebody it certainly wouldn't be that polite and I'd get banned for it. BTDT. Right back at ya:moon: :toast: They're even in sync.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Marduk said:


> Thanks man, you too!
> 
> It's been a long and winding road the past few years but all is well. Glad to be back.


 I'm glad to see you back as well. I missed reading your great advice. I actually did a "Holy ****, it's Marduk " 
Now we just need to get @NoChoice to come back.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

These recent oldshirt posts have not uncovered anything that has not already
been mentioned on any infidelity forum at some time before.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

oldtruck said:


> These recent oldshirt posts have not uncovered anything that has not already
> 
> been mentioned on any infidelity forum at some time before.




I’ve said many of these things myself, although I’ve never cheated. 

But I do think that any belief that you can influence your spouse not to cheat on you - or to cheat on you - is pretty delusional. 

People are who they are. Maybe you can influence a percentage point or two, but if someone lacks integrity, there’s no amount of being hot that is going to change that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldtruck said:


> These recent oldshirt posts have not uncovered anything that has not already
> been mentioned on any infidelity forum at some time before.


There is a reason for that. Cheaters and their APs are often following a pretty standard playbook even if they don't realize it at the time. 

I was simply relating my experiences from years ago and some of my thoughts and perspectives looking back on it now. 

I never said this was going to be any kind of ground breaking material or any kind of newsflash. Just first hand account from an otherwise normal joe.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Marduk said:


> I’ve said many of these things myself, although I’ve never cheated.
> 
> But I do think that any belief that you can influence your spouse not to cheat on you - or to cheat on you - is pretty delusional.
> 
> People are who they are. Maybe you can influence a percentage point or two, but if someone lacks integrity, there’s no amount of being hot that is going to change that.


As I stated in my posts, whether to cheat or not is a conscious choice and a decision to take those steps. 

So other than locking someone up in your basement, if someone makes the choice the cheat, it doesn't matter how perfect of a spouse you are or how many hoops and hurdles you jump through. 

However, other than the true sociopath, people are all going to go through their own cost/benefit analysis and they will look for their own justifications in their own mind. The more Justification Fodder you give them, the higher the chances of their decision tree landing on Sven From Yoga's house on their way home from GNO, even if, as you said, only by a couple percentage points. 

It is delusional to think that one's spouse could never/would never cheat no matter what the circumstances and that was one of my primary points. 

But the world is also not completely random and only left to chance. We do influence and effect our own realities. If someone knowingly neglects their partner's wants and needs while sitting on the couch gaining 50 lbs and skimping on personal hygiene while being chronically unemployed and getting drunk every day and becoming bitter and abusive - you are increasing your odds of being cheated on, even if your odds were never 100% one way or the other to begin with. 

Driving without a seatbelt does not mean you are guaranteed of dying in a car crash, but it does increase your odds of it happening. 

Likewise, 100% seatbelt use does not mean you are guaranteed of surviving a crash but it does increase your chances.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> As I stated in my posts, whether to cheat or not is a conscious choice and a decision to take those steps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not true at all. 

People that lack integrity, lack integrity. 

Those that cheat don’t do it simply because they are selfish, even though they are. 

People that cheat don’t do it because of an opportunity, because they create them. 

People that cheat don’t do it because of sexless marriages or terrible spouses, even though they use these as excuses even if in many cases they aren’t true. 

People that cheat lack integrity. This is often something that someone is born with or not. 

You cannot affair proof a marriage, because you cannot give or take someone’s integrity. They have it, or they don’t. 

You may be able to delay it. Police them. Frighten them or try to take away opportunities. Try to attract their attention so much that they will not look at someone else. 

People that cheat don’t cheat because of a cost benefit analysis. If they even think this way, they lack integrity. It’s transitional thinking, and may happen, but the root is not sexual economics, it’s a lack of integrity. 

But that is a fool’s errand. Best not to be with someone without integrity in the first place. Because someone with integrity will never cheat, even with a terrible spouse and attractive opportunities.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Every time I hear that whole idea that there is a cheating gene, I just laugh and laugh. It is the most ridiculous notion that I've heard in a while.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I believe there are people who will never ever cheat no matter how bath things get. I believe there are people who are just selfish and self centered their entire lives. What I do not believe is that someone is just born badd and if they live 75 years with integrity and compassion and honor and have one month of crap, that the 1 month was who they really were and the 75 years was some sort of facade they managed to hold on to their entire lives. Cheating is never OK. Cheating is 1 of the worst acts a human can do. But to say that once someone cheats it just means the inherent evil welling up in their soul finally reared its head is just pathetic. It's what people tell themselves as a coping mechanism. But it is not that simple.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

personofinterest said:


> Every time I hear that whole idea that there is a cheating gene, I just laugh and laugh. It is the most ridiculous notion that I've heard in a while.




Gene? No. Personality flaw? Yes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> I believe there are people who will never ever cheat no matter how bath things get. I believe there are people who are just selfish and self centered their entire lives. What I do not believe is that someone is just born badd and if they live 75 years with integrity and compassion and honor and have one month of crap, that the 1 month was who they really were and the 75 years was some sort of facade they managed to hold on to their entire lives. Cheating is never OK. Cheating is 1 of the worst acts a human can do. But to say that once someone cheats it just means the inherent evil welling up in their soul finally reared its head is just pathetic. It's what people tell themselves as a coping mechanism. But it is not that simple.


I agree. 


I think people want to believe that there is an "Us-vs-Them" and that people that cheat are somehow 'different' and come from a completely different mold and are a different species. 

Now I will be the first to admit that there are just some bad apples in the batch. 

But that doesn't explain the countless people that have lived normal, decent, faithful lives, raised a flock of good kids, made casseroles for their neighbor that had surgery, volunteered at animal shelter and then at the age of 45 got down with Sven from yoga after yoga class. 

My point in a lot of the posts I have made here is that these people are NOT always completely different from everyone else. They are your neighbors, your coworkers, your friends and associates and many have lived completely normal, decent lives - up to the day they didn't. 

You can point fingers after the fact and say they lacked integrity. But what about the 25 years of normal, faithful marriage up to that point???


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That’s true but you don’t know the details of the ins and outs of their marriages. Judging especially by TAM, every marriage seems to have some major-ish wrinkles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s no different than someone that doesn’t steal from work for decades, until he does. Or someone that lives financially disciplined their whole lives, and then spend themselves into a pit they can’t get out of. 

I know of men that didn’t abuse their wife for decades, and then one day did. Are they different than your example?

Plenty of people work hard to keep themselves together their whole lives, and then give it all away one day. I would say that integrity is what you do when nobody is looking, and when the choice is hard. 

You can give yourself integrity, and only you can give it away. 

I’m not your judge. You are. That is the point. But at the same time I will not gloss over the thousands of little decisions that lead to cheating, all done with awareness and intention, and call it a mulligan. 

I believe it’s possible to regain your integrity. I just think most people that give it away willingly won’t bother. And because dishonesty goes hand in hand with a lack of integrity, there’s no way to know - many times even for themselves. 

There’s a very old book with a very good line. It goes like this: “negligence is an extreme thing.”


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Marduk said:


> There’s a very old book with a very good line. It goes like this: “negligence is an extreme thing.”




In my opinion, there is nothing more cruel than negligence. Negligence will drive a spouse to leave or cheat.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Girl_power said:


> In my opinion, there is nothing more cruel than negligence. Negligence will drive a spouse to leave or cheat.




Negligence in a relationship can drive a spouse to leave you. 

Negligence regarding your own integrity can allow you to to talk yourself into cheating. 

Many people deserve to be dumped. Nobody deserves to get cheated on, except for those that are cheating themselves.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Marduk said:


> Negligence in a relationship can drive a spouse to leave you.
> 
> Negligence regarding your own integrity can allow you to to talk yourself into cheating.
> 
> Many people deserve to be dumped. Nobody deserves to get cheated on, except for those that are cheating themselves.




I think it’s delusion and entitlement that allows you to talk yourself into cheating as well.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Girl_power said:


> I think it’s delusion and entitlement that allows you to talk yourself into cheating as well.




Yes, I think those are some of the tools that greases the wheels, for sure.


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