# LD women, please chime in



## BostonBruins32

Calling all LD women. What are your reasons for rejecting your HD spouse? I initiate about 10 times per month, and get rejected 9 of those times. A few times having sex only once every other month. I've expressed how important sex is to me with my wife and she said she just doesnt feel like it often and that shes sorry. I have never been able to get more out of her than that. I've stopped initiating on the premise of a quote i read "why woudl you want to have sex with someone who doesnt want to have sex with you". been almost 40 days now since sexual activity. 

So what are some common reasons you LD women "dont feel like" having sex with your spouse? Personally speaking, I can tell you its taking a toll on my view of our relationship.


----------



## treyvion

BostonBruins32 said:


> Calling all LD women. What are your reasons for rejecting your HD spouse? I initiate about 10 times per month, and get rejected 9 of those times. A few times having sex only once every other month. I've expressed how important sex is to me with my wife and she said she just doesnt feel like it often and that shes sorry. I have never been able to get more out of her than that. I've stopped initiating on the premise of a quote i read "why woudl you want to have sex with someone who doesnt want to have sex with you". been almost 40 days now since sexual activity.
> 
> So what are some common reasons you LD women "dont feel like" having sex with your spouse? Personally speaking, I can tell you its taking a toll on my view of our relationship.


She might not find you attractive, or she might not feel she has to. She may have lost interest in the act herself. Many of the LD's don't feel a need to do it and don't understand why the HD feels it's a "need". They have no much how much of your life is diminished.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Let me guess, you're one of the guys who takes anything that might give her incentive to change off the table?


----------



## usmarriedguy

Does not matter what the reason is. 

Does not get the urge for sex, does not need it to feel bonding and love, does not find him attractive, only sexually attracted to men she does not have, never has an O, has physical problems, has mental problems, etc...

Whatever. 

She has to want to change either because she wants to or because she does not want to lose you.


----------



## treyvion

WorkingOnMe said:


> Let me guess, you're one of the guys who takes anything that might give her incentive to change off the table?


Give an example of some things which may provide her incentive to change.


----------



## Anon Pink

treyvion said:


> Give an example of some things which may provide her incentive to change.


Any sort of affection.
Taking care of her car.
Helping her in with groceries.
Any acts of service a husband routinely does for a wife
Any acts of affection a husband routinely does for his wife.
Any words of affirmation a husband routinely gives to his wife.
Household support that doesn't compromise the well being of the children.

Take the Emotional Needs Questionnaire together with your wife. Take the 5 love languages test too. Once you know what her top 2-3 needs are, when she ignores yours, remind her that you do NOT ignore hers. 

A hand job at the very minimum is so damn simple and if done well can be so damn enjoyable! So she doesn't want to have sex... Okay she doesn't have to have sex to make you feel loved in the love language that speaks to you.


----------



## treyvion

Anon Pink said:


> Any sort of affection.
> Taking care of her car.
> Helping her in with groceries.
> Any acts of service a husband routinely does for a wife
> Any acts of affection a husband routinely does for his wife.
> Any words of affirmation a husband routinely gives to his wife.
> Household support that doesn't compromise the well being of the children.
> 
> Take the Emotional Needs Questionnaire together with your wife. Take the 5 love languages test too. Once you know what her top 2-3 needs are, when she ignores yours, remind her that you do NOT ignore hers.
> 
> A hand job at the very minimum is so damn simple and if done well can be so damn enjoyable! So she doesn't want to have sex... Okay she doesn't have to have sex to make you feel loved in the love language that speaks to you.


This all sounds good, I think he was saying to perhaps stop doing some things he currently does for her. To help motivate her this way.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

My recollection from previous, but now deleted, threads, is that your wife has CSA issues. As such, I don't know that she fits in the usual LD category.


----------



## treyvion

And I also wanted to point out. LD does not mean sexless.

There are compassionate and loving LD's who actually provide a descent sexual experience to their mates.


----------



## soccermom2three

The times in our marriage when I didn't feel like having sex with my husband was usually when we weren't spending time together. He was spending hours at the gym then hours at the computer. Oh, then he took up golf, (I always forget about that one), so there went the weekend too. The 15 hours a week together time needed to sustain a relationship, he was spending with his golf and workout buddies. Total turn off.


----------



## treyvion

soccermom2three said:


> The times in our marriage when I didn't feel like having sex with my husband was usually when we weren't spending time together. He was spending hours at the gym then hours at the computer. Oh, then he took up golf, (I always forget about that one), so there went the weekend too. The 15 hours a week together time needed to sustain a relationship, he was spending with his golf and workout buddies. Total turn off.


They were his wife.


----------



## Anon Pink

Tall Average Guy said:


> My recollection from previous, but now deleted, threads, is that your wife has CSA issues. As such, I don't know that she fits in the usual LD category.


Ooh good catch. I knew the name sounded familiar but couldn't place the sitch.

Well tit for tat only makes us all titless and tatless.


----------



## john117

LD may be about control and not about desire. The LD has an idea of acceptable frequency and anything over that upsets the balance of power so it's not possible. 

Think about the magic once a month number which deserves it's entry into the pantheon of constants alongside pi, e, etc...


----------



## askari

My wife of 17 years has always been LD. Looking back now, sex was never important to her.
I think the reason we married was because we were both late 20's and wanted someone and we each ticked most of the boxes. 

She hated tongue kissing, refused to give BJ's - all very vanilla. At the time it didnt really bother me.

Over the years her attitude towards sex; 'why should I do something I don't feel like doing or don't like?', her refusal to try new things, her rejecting me so often...we went to MC but she stopped going when sex came up, her refusal to even try to understand the importance of sex in a marraieg and to men...

All these things over the years have driven me to a dark place of resentment towards her. I am not interested in sex with her any more....she has basically managed to kill any sex drive I ever had.

There are women who are LD, but when they are up for it are very HD! 
Had my wife only been up for it 2x a month but my goodness when she was up for it it was hot, bonding etc then it would have been fine.

I think you have two types of LD;
1) LD but when hot is hot
2) LD with no interest atall other than duty sex as least often as she thinks she can get away with


----------



## john117

That may not be too viable in the long term without resentment building up - for a period of time you may be happy with infrequent but mind blowing sex bult longer term you get into a situation where your natural tendency is to improve the frequency because it feels good for both partners and the LD's natural tendency is to resist. This creates an unfortunate temperature inversion type situation where you end up having less sex because the LD is gravely concerned about cranking up the frequency and shuts down.

Ultimately the LD partner may try to drive the frequency towards the magic once a month constant and at that point that's all she wrote.


----------



## BostonBruins32

good memory on the CSA thing. So with regards to this, it seems through light conversation on it and on sex itself, that this isnt a lingering issue(but maybe it is buried deep down?). There is also no issue with regards to her acting strange during the act or enjoying the sex when we do have it. So like others have said, when we do it, she seems to enjoy it, she just never wants to really do it. 

We had gone to counseling for a bit, and her statement early on was just that its not something shes into. Then more recently in a session, the counselor criticized her inability to recognize or work with me on the importance of sex to me, she seemed really frustrated. To the point where she wants a break from counseling. 

So this leads me back to the point that she has now heard through me, through the counselor, and through the "5 languages of love" summary I gave her, that sex is important to me with regards to a connection with her. The problem is it doesnt seem to change her approach or actions on the subject. Everything else seems to be really fine, as she is affectionate, hand holding, talkative, etc.. its just the sex thing she could care less about. Also, to be fair, I have stopped initiating. As in I have not initiated in about 40 days. All on the premise of how put off I am that someone I love doesn't care about this being important to me. It feels like continued rug sweeping, but the conversations with her have gone nowhere and seem to annoy her. I have some bubbled up resentment (growing), but have refused to show it. I've also ordered MMSL, so I'm really hoping for some interesting tips in here about how to carry myself and or understand her. For now I'm just not sure if I should be initiating still or if I should continue to reset my expectations by avoiding trying, thus avoiding the anxiety that comes from constant rejection.


----------



## BostonBruins32

additionally.. id take some feedback on my not initiating it.

Just thinking out loud here.. but when I stop initiating, what does that do for the situation? nothing? does it send a message? does it make things easier for myself? Does it make her wonder why i stopped trying? I'm not even sure why i stopped initiating, other than I'm just tired of rejection. It could be just hurting myself and doing nothing for the situation.. no clue.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
It's good that you stopped initiating because a 90 percent rejection rate carries with it a LOT of subtext including:
- I am so desperate for sex that I will accept a massive amount of rejection for a very small amount of sex
- I am going to pretend that I believe you like sex, even though it is obvious that you are only 'tolerating' it

Was she always like this with you?
Do you know if she was like this with her first H?
How old are you/your W?
Did you wait til marriage for sex? 
This is her second marriage and your first or second?
How old are your kids? How many of them are from her first marriage?






QUOTE=BostonBruins32;6613609]additionally.. id take some feedback on my not initiating it.

Just thinking out loud here.. but when I stop initiating, what does that do for the situation? nothing? does it send a message? does it make things easier for myself? Does it make her wonder why i stopped trying? I'm not even sure why i stopped initiating, other than I'm just tired of rejection. It could be just hurting myself and doing nothing for the situation.. no clue.[/QUOTE]


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> It's good that you stopped initiating because a 90 percent rejection rate carries with it a LOT of subtext including:
> - I am so desperate for sex that I will accept a massive amount of rejection for a very small amount of sex
> - I am going to pretend that I believe you like sex, even though it is obvious that you are only 'tolerating' it
> 
> Was she always like this with you? *Started really after marriage, even the honeymoon included only 1 session*
> Do you know if she was like this with her first H? * I am her first husband.*How old are you/your W? *I'm 33 shes 29*Did you wait til marriage for sex? *no, much higher frequency during 4 year courtship.*This is her second marriage and your first or second? *we are each others first marriage*How old are your kids? How many of them are from her first marriage? *we have 1 child. sex was infrequent after baby, but i think she had some PPD issues for a few months (admittedly so)*
> 
> 
> 
> I dont want to look desperate, but i also dont want her to lose sight of it. I just havent figured out the fine line between the two. I also wonder if I stop initiating, does she actually feel less desireable and could that start a seperate complex?


----------



## Married but Happy

BostonBruins32 said:


> MEM11363 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also wonder if I stop initiating, does she actually feel less desireable and could that start a seperate complex?
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience with my ex, when I stopped initiating, she was relieved that she didn't have to find excuses to turn me down. She never initiated before or after I stopped doing so, and if anything became more complacent and less willing when I eventually did try again. She seemed to feel that if I could go without and not initiate for a while, I could continue to do that indefinitely. Obviously, this was not the desired outcome.
> 
> IMO, there are very few success stories about increasing an LD spouse's desire (and those few success stories may give false hope to those who keep trying to deal with this situation). They may make a temporary improvement, but it requires conscious effort - it's not innate or fueled by actual desire, so it quickly fades.
Click to expand...


----------



## treyvion

Married but Happy said:


> BostonBruins32 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience with my ex, when I stopped initiating, she was relieved that she didn't have to find excuses to turn me down. She never initiated before or after I stopped doing so, and if anything became more complacent and less willing when I eventually did try again. She seemed to feel that if I could go without and not initiate for a while, I could continue to do that indefinitely. Obviously, this was not the desired outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> So she obviously felt you where taking something from her with the sexual engagement.
> 
> 
> 
> Married but Happy said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, there are very few success stories about increasing an LD spouse's desire (and those few success stories may give false hope to those who keep trying to deal with this situation). They may make a temporary improvement, but it requires conscious effort - it's not innate or fueled by actual desire, so it quickly fades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Remember theirs so many types of LD's...
> 
> 1. LD's who will please their mate, their just not sexual themself.
> 2. LD's who are powerview. Giving into you is like giving up a pound of flesh, they won't do it.
> 3. LD's who are cheating on their partner so they don't have a need
> 4. LD's who neglected their health and their hormones and sex drive our out of wack
> 5. LD's who used sex to snare their mate. After being snared there's no longer a need
> 6. LD's who have a true physical anomaly ( Vagnismus for example ) and sex is so painful that they have no desire for it.
> 
> To be in a relationship and recieve the proceeds of the otherpersons time and labour and to knowingly know you are neglect them is just wrong. But it can be a common thing and we joke about it and complain about it.
> 
> I look at it as someone robbing me of my life.
Click to expand...


----------



## Anon Pink

Having been in your wife's shoes...

Here is how crazy and irrational it feels.
When you stop initiating she feels rejected/respected. Respected because you are listening to her that she doesn't want sex. Rejected because you have told her that sex is important to you and she knows that it has not stopped being important to you. Makes sense right? Yes I know it makes no sense at all but there it is.

I just had this idea, for what it's worth..
Put a large glass on her dresser. Each time you want to initiate sex and have stopped yourself, put a marble in the glass. A tangible reminder that you are not rejecting her and are respecting her.
Will this make things better between you two? Have no idea.
Will this make you feel better?
What it will do is give her tangible in her face reality of how your needs go unmet while her needs are being met.

Just a though...


----------



## treyvion

Anon Pink said:


> Having been in your wife's shoes...
> 
> Here is how crazy and irrational it feels.
> When you stop initiating she feels rejected/respected. Respected because you are listening to her that she doesn't want sex. Rejected because you have told her that sex is important to you and she knows that it has not stopped being important to you. Makes sense right? Yes I know it makes no sense at all but there it is.
> 
> I just had this idea, for what it's worth..
> Put a large glass on her dresser. Each time you want to initiate sex and have stopped yourself, put a marble in the glass. A tangible reminder that you are not rejecting her and are respecting her.
> Will this make things better between you two? Have no idea.
> Will this make you feel better?
> What it will do is give her tangible in her face reality of how your needs go unmet while her needs are being met.
> 
> Just a though...


Can we turn her on without asking, perhaps by being more attractive or charming ourselves?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I think part of the idea about not initiating is to destabilize the relationship. Start making them wonder why you're no longer pursuing. Start making them a bit insecure. Probably wouldn't hurt to also start spending some time every week at the sports bar. And if you're asked why you're not spending time with her the answer is why should I. There's nothing at home for me anyway.


----------



## Anon Pink

treyvion said:


> Can we turn her on without asking, perhaps by being more attractive or charming ourselves?


Absolutely, but it's hard to spot the places where one can improve in charm.

IDK, my H...didn't do anything positive to try to solve our issues so it's hard for me to really understand how a wife can ignore a husband being open and honest about how he feels and what he wants.


----------



## treyvion

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think part of the idea about not initiating is to destabilize the relationship. Start making them wonder why you're no longer pursuing. Start making them a bit insecure. Probably wouldn't hurt to also start spending some time every week at the sports bar. And if you're asked why you're not spending time with her the answer is why should I. There's nothing at home for me anyway.


I wouldn't even say anything. Just keep doing it and get into it, may as well enjoy it.

Make it 2 or 3 times a week... Pay less attention to her and definately don't puppy dog her...

I'd be giving my sexual attention to other places, you don't have to cheat, don't use porn. Just look at other babes and know that if you were out there you can do it too.

They really respond when they figure out other people want their partner.


----------



## treyvion

Anon Pink said:


> Absolutely, but it's hard to spot the places where one can improve in charm.
> 
> IDK, my H...didn't do anything positive to try to solve our issues so it's hard for me to really understand how a wife can ignore a husband being open and honest about how he feels and what he wants.


Improve charm and attraction outside of her. Women will fill you with their attention. The wife won't fill you right in the mode she's in.

However when she senses you being filled elsewhere and your unrockable confidence, she may just likely hold onto whats hers.

They get real competitive.


----------



## treyvion

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think part of the idea about not initiating is to destabilize the relationship. Start making them wonder why you're no longer pursuing. Start making them a bit insecure. Probably wouldn't hurt to also start spending some time every week at the sports bar. And if you're asked why you're not spending time with her the answer is why should I. There's nothing at home for me anyway.


I like your hard hitting direct approaches. 

I was just thinking. The time outside of the house could be 3 days a week spend learning some partnered dance with the opposite sex.

It's fun, it improves confidence and you don't have to cheat. The ladies will feed you tons of positive attracted energy if you are having fun.

She won't like it one bit. But you can invite her after some time and let her see you in that world where you have gained validation.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I see absolutely no benefit from not initiating (other than you do not get rejected) 

It is not punishing her because she does not want sex. Maybe pink has some good points though. 

I think you will just have to tell her: Sorry hun, I love you but this no sex thing just isn't working for me and we need to find a solution. But I suppose the alternative is just adjust your own self to match her. Maybe she enjoys sex 4 times a year.


----------



## treyvion

usmarriedguy said:


> I see absolutely no benefit from not initiating (other than you do not get rejected)
> 
> It is not punishing her because she does not want sex. Maybe pink has some good points though.
> 
> I think you will just have to tell her: Sorry hun, I love you but this no sex thing just isn't working for me and we need to find a solution.


You say that once. Don't keep saying it. Sit down and discuss the situation, and explain how it's not OK, but you are willing to get outside help and be patient...

But also to take the action like I have stated. We cannot keep saying it, you have to do something about it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Interesting Anon. I have been trying to work out a bit more (I think i'm 4-5lbs heavier than i was when i met her 11 years ago) and dress a bit nicer all the time, even if just running to the grocery store or just to work. I'm also trying to keep the charm and smiles at a high level out in public with people I/we run into (store clerks, waitresses, greeters, etc). Essentially, moving forward and seemingly not rattled by the sex issues at home. Thats the impression I'm focusing on.

I haven't quite nailed down the reason for her rejecting me or being dissinterested in being sex. My hypothesis is:

-she just literally has a low sex drive, nothing personal
-she's not sexually attracted to me
-she doesnt respect me 

I've sniffed around to see if shes cheating, and theres nothing to see there. I've thought about her not being in love with me, which could be true, but she still talks about the future (more kids, not throwing away baby clothes/toys, new house someday, travel plans, home updates etc). I've debated if the sex is just not good for her, ie boring etc, but she is quite vocal during the act and says she orgasms etc. As I said, after I've talked to her about the matter many times and after I've faced rejection so frequently, I dont know what else to do other than to shut off the valve for a while.


----------



## treyvion

BostonBruins32 said:


> Interesting Anon. I have been trying to work out a bit more (I think i'm 4-5lbs heavier than i was when i met her 11 years ago) and dress a bit nicer all the time, even if just running to the grocery store or just to work. I'm also trying to keep the charm and smiles at a high level out in public with people I/we run into (store clerks, waitresses, greeters, etc). Essentially, moving forward and seemingly not rattled by the sex issues at home. Thats the impression I'm focusing on.
> 
> I haven't quite nailed down the reason for her rejecting me or being dissinterested in being sex. My hypothesis is:
> 
> -she just literally has a low sex drive, nothing personal
> -she's not sexually attracted to me
> -she doesnt respect me
> 
> I've sniffed around to see if shes cheating, and theres nothing to see there. I've thought about her not being in love with me, which could be true, but she still talks about the future (more kids, not throwing away baby clothes/toys, new house someday, travel plans, home updates etc). I've debated if the sex is just not good for her, ie boring etc, but she is quite vocal during the act and says she orgasms etc. As I said, after I've talked to her about the matter many times and after I've faced rejection so frequently, I dont know what else to do other than to shut off the valve for a while.


I gave some constructive approaches which will add to your confidence and build you as a person.


----------



## BostonBruins32

treyvion said:


> You say that once. Don't keep saying it. Sit down and discuss the situation, and explain how it's not OK, but you are willing to get outside help and be patient...
> 
> But also to take the action like I have stated. We cannot keep saying it, you have to do something about it.


Treyvion, thats exactly how i feel i'm handling it. I told her that its not ok and its hurtful to not have this intimate connection with my wife. My problem is that she heard me, but I'm not sure she heard me enough and or she believes it. So more drastic changes are needed to drive the point home, without having the conversation once every few months. 

Not initiating is an action, but probably a dumb one. I've ordered MMSL to help inspire me, but I'm just trying to drum up other things I can do to drive home the point that its not ok.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Interesting Anon. I have been trying to work out a bit more (I think i'm 4-5lbs heavier than i was when i met her 11 years ago) and dress a bit nicer all the time, even if just running to the grocery store or just to work. I'm also trying to keep the charm and smiles at a high level out in public with people I/we run into (store clerks, waitresses, greeters, etc). Essentially, moving forward and seemingly not rattled by the sex issues at home. Thats the impression I'm focusing on.
> 
> I haven't quite nailed down the reason for her rejecting me or being dissinterested in being sex. My hypothesis is:
> 
> -she just literally has a low sex drive, nothing personal
> -she's not sexually attracted to me
> -she doesnt respect me
> 
> I've sniffed around to see if shes cheating, and theres nothing to see there. I've thought about her not being in love with me, which could be true, but she still talks about the future (more kids, not throwing away baby clothes/toys, new house someday, travel plans, home updates etc). I've debated if the sex is just not good for her, ie boring etc, but she is quite vocal during the act and says she orgasms etc. As I said, after I've talked to her about the matter many times and after I've faced rejection so frequently, I dont know what else to do other than to shut off the valve for a while.


I am at a loss because everything you have noted above are the exact things I *think* I would have responded to.

Her sense of herself, who she is inside, has to be challenged. Does she see herself as a loving generous person? How does she define loving and generous?

I'm not the only woman here who never understood the depth of feeling that goes into sex for men. If I hadn't come here to TAM, I still would not understand it because it's not like my H ever tried to explain his thoughts or feelings.

Given that, other than continuing as you have, and not allowing her to think you are fine and dandy with not having sex, I am at a loss. Unless she has overt selfishness tendencies, shaking her sense of self by exposing how selfish she is to ignore something so important to you....


----------



## treyvion

BostonBruins32 said:


> Treyvion, thats exactly how i feel i'm handling it. I told her that its not ok and its hurtful to not have this intimate connection with my wife. My problem is that she heard me, but I'm not sure she heard me enough and or she believes it. So more drastic changes are needed to drive the point home, without having the conversation once every few months.
> 
> Not initiating is an action, but probably a dumb one. I've ordered MMSL to help inspire me, but I'm just trying to drum up other things I can do to drive home the point that its not ok.


You might as well. Also have fun with these other ladies, don't take it so serious. You don't have to cheat on her, just building back yourself up and adding to it what she has not been filling.

Even Athol Kay says social validation works like magic and I am working on the same thing, because I know it will give me a lot of lift...


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> I am at a loss because everything you have noted above are the exact things I *think* I would have responded to.
> 
> Her sense of herself, who she is inside, has to be challenged. Does she see herself as a loving generous person? How does she define loving and generous?
> 
> I'm not the only woman here who never understood the depth of feeling that goes into sex for men. If I hadn't come here to TAM, I still would not understand it because it's not like my H ever tried to explain his thoughts or feelings.
> 
> Given that, other than continuing as you have, and not allowing her to think you are fine and dandy with not having sex, I am at a loss. Unless she has overt selfishness tendencies, shaking her sense of self by exposing how selfish she is to ignore something so important to you....


her mother called her a princess jokingly a few times.. and I've often felt like she may have something of a princess complex. She doesnt shop or buy expensive things or demand fine dining, but its other things. She has a hard time recognizing fault (see my comment on her wanting to stop counseling after she got criticized). She has said sorry maybe 6 times since i've known her? She is a double standard master. She is not afraid to ask for things, simple as me running out to get stuff for her etc. For a long time I think I adhered to these requests/needs too much. This is why i mentioned she maybe lost respect for me. This is why i ordered the book. My goal is to meet the right needs the right way(not like a puppy bowing to her), have a stronger backbone, and as Treyvion noted look more appealing to the outside world. 

I think its a cake and eat it type thing with her. I just need to figure out how to cut some of that out, without being a disrespetful husband. And again, I guess I'm just venting about how hurt I am that my sexual needs are not important to her.


----------



## Anon Pink

Well I think you are doing everything perfectly right. I'm sure it's frustrating, because if you do have a princess on your hands, perhaps the Bard himself had the answer in Taming of the Shrew.


----------



## Just Wondering

For me as a HD male the mystery is what makes it so hard to understand. I have asked a 100 times why are thing the way they are. She can not put a label on it. Its always I'am going Thur something. She says She doesn't know her self. But its like this is the way it is. mean time I spend my whole life trying to figure out whats wrong with us. The women has absolutely no sexual energy . She has said She has no desire for sex with me or anyone else. Also thats its not me. I did nothing wrong,She just does not require sex in her life. So yes I stopped being there for her.I can not give her all of me and get what she has to offer in return. It still trobles me that she can not describe to me Why????


----------



## BostonBruins32

Just Wondering said:


> For me as a HD male the mystery is what makes it so hard to understand. I have asked a 100 times why are thing the way they are. She can not put a label on it. Its always I'am going Thur something. She says She doesn't know her self. But its like this is the way it is. mean time I spend my whole life trying to figure out whats wrong with us. The women has absolutely no sexual energy . She has said She has no desire for sex with me or anyone else. Also thats its not me. I did nothing wrong,She just does not require sex in her life. So yes I stopped being there for her.I can not give her all of me and get what she has to offer in return. It still trobles me that she can not describe to me Why????


2 thoughts:

I sometimes worry that the low desire thing is only low desire with me. IE would she have more desire with someone else even after their "honeymoon phase"?

Also, what has been the outcome of you not being there for her? Has she responded? what have you stopped doing?


----------



## Giro flee

Sorry for the long post, I don't know if this is the type of info you are even looking for...

LD wife here. Back when we were really struggling with sex I really had no idea why I didn't want sex. I was that wife who had to say "I don't know" when asked why I didn't want to have sex. The feeling of disinterest at best or dread at worst was really difficult. I am not the kind of woman who plays games or uses sex as a carrot to get my husband to do things, I'm not manipulative.

I never had that desire, that need, that want. When we first were dating sex was easier, there was some curiosity, novelty, and way less stress. I'm more of an analytical thinker so logically I knew I was the problem. Four kids under five brought the problem to its worst.

H and I tried to make sure I didn't have resentment, that helped a little. I went to counseling, that helped with some issues from my dysfunctional childhood. Learning how to deal with stress, and actively working on keeping stress levels low helped. Learning not to compare my H with my dad or other controlling, selfish men helped.

Learning that I pretty much only have responsive desire was the biggest breakthrough and also really shameful for me. I felt broken and not good enough. I tried everything to change it. My H was the one who finally convinced me to accept it and we now work well with what we have. 

I have sex whenever H wants to now, (unless I'm ill). H works hard at starting sex early on in the day with sexy talk and very direct talk about what we will be doing later, no more asking like a little boy which was never sexy. Him asking for sex always put me in the power position which I didn't care for.

I tried to initiate for a while, that never really worked well because H could tell I wasn't aroused, which made him feel weird. He says I'm way better and enthusiastic when I let him arouse me first. I still struggle sometimes at the end of a long day when it would be so much easier to go to sleep. Sometimes I have to give myself a little mental pep talk to shake off the resistance.

I've grown from a woman horrified to "have to" touch my husband to an enthusiastic, trusting, open partner over the last 10 to 15 years. It can be done, but it requires a lot of love, trust, patience, and the capability of admitting your flaws from both spouses. Shaming, coercing, and manipulating would have landed us in divorce court many years ago.


----------



## Just Wondering

BostonBruins32 said:


> 2 thoughts:
> 
> I sometimes worry that the low desire thing is only low desire with me. IE would she have more desire with someone else even after their "honeymoon phase"?
> 
> Also, what has been the outcome of you not being there for her? Has she responded? what have you stopped doing?


Your 1st Question. In my case I believe and have been told it has nothing to do with me. Even if Brad Pitt was her man She would have little interest. I would like to see that???
2nd This is not something that just happened in our relationship. So its nothing new to me. The women has no use for sex. She is willing to go without all her other desires in life if She does not have to perform sex. Meaning no matter what I take away from her that She gets from me daily. She is willing to like trade for them. Theirs a phrase I like its Why would I reward her for bad behavior . Period, If we are friends,lovers,Don't treat me badly you will mean lesser to me. I have so much love to offer to her. But its not rewarding to me to be her everything and not have my needs met.


----------



## unbelievable

There are things that are vitally important to your wife. Whatever they are, if they were linked to her sexual performance, her knickers would be flying off. I believe most sexless spouses, like most abusive or lazy spouses, are the way they are because their rewards are not linked to their performance.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Giro flee said:


> Sorry for the long post, I don't know if this is the type of info you are even looking for...
> 
> LD wife here. Back when we were really struggling with sex I really had no idea why I didn't want sex. I was that wife who had to say "I don't know" when asked why I didn't want to have sex. The feeling of disinterest at best or dread at worst was really difficult. I am not the kind of woman who plays games or uses sex as a carrot to get my husband to do things, I'm not manipulative.
> 
> I never had that desire, that need, that want. When we first were dating sex was easier, there was some curiosity, novelty, and way less stress. I'm more of an analytical thinker so logically I knew I was the problem. Four kids under five brought the problem to its worst.
> 
> H and I tried to make sure I didn't have resentment, that helped a little. I went to counseling, that helped with some issues from my dysfunctional childhood. Learning how to deal with stress, and actively working on keeping stress levels low helped. Learning not to compare my H with my dad or other controlling, selfish men helped.
> 
> Learning that I pretty much only have responsive desire was the biggest breakthrough and also really shameful for me. I felt broken and not good enough. I tried everything to change it. My H was the one who finally convinced me to accept it and we now work well with what we have.
> 
> I have sex whenever H wants to now, (unless I'm ill). H works hard at starting sex early on in the day with sexy talk and very direct talk about what we will be doing later, no more asking like a little boy which was never sexy. Him asking for sex always put me in the power position which I didn't care for.
> 
> I tried to initiate for a while, that never really worked well because H could tell I wasn't aroused, which made him feel weird. He says I'm way better and enthusiastic when I let him arouse me first. I still struggle sometimes at the end of a long day when it would be so much easier to go to sleep. Sometimes I have to give myself a little mental pep talk to shake off the resistance.
> 
> I've grown from a woman horrified to "have to" touch my husband to an enthusiastic, trusting, open partner over the last 10 to 15 years. It can be done, but it requires a lot of love, trust, patience, and the capability of admitting your flaws from both spouses. Shaming, coercing, and manipulating would have landed us in divorce court many years ago.


very insightful. Thanks a ton. So I am trying to be pretty patient with it. I'm also a bit discouraged that the topic gets rug swept and she makes no effort to change or resolve the issue. The issue is not that she wants it less than i do, the issue is that she doesnt seem to care about its importance to me. 

Responsive desire could seem to fit her, but I cant break through that barrier of her accepting the initiation. If only she would read up on this a bit or talk to someone a bit. It chips away at my emotional connection when she refuses to be intimate with me. 
The counselor put it an interesting way to her: "what if your husband told you he was didnt feel like working or didnt feel like changing diapers because its just not his thing. would this be ok?"

Of course it wouldnt. So while not a perfect example, it drives home the point of communication and understanding the needs of the one you love. Hmm.. thinking outloud, I wonder if her refusal to care to fix it has anything to do with her love for me. I didnt think it did, but as I talk this through, it could..


----------



## treyvion

unbelievable said:


> There are things that are vitally important to your wife. Whatever they are, if they were linked to her sexual performance, her knickers would be flying off. I believe most sexless spouses, like most abusive or lazy spouses, are the way they are because their rewards are not linked to their performance.


Right, they get rewarded either way and don't see why they should have to do it.


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> She has a hard time recognizing fault (see my comment on her wanting to stop counseling after she got criticized). She has said sorry maybe 6 times since i've known her? She is a double standard master. She is not afraid to ask for things, simple as me running out to get stuff for her etc. For a long time I think I adhered to these requests/needs too much. This is why i mentioned she maybe lost respect for me.


I think I could have written this, but my wife and I are older. I've stopped doing things, partly because the positive reward is limited, partly because of the criticism if I don't do something well (I never had to fix a drain before!), partly because even if I start, she'll tell me I'm doing it wrong or push me out of the way and do it herself. I can get more criticism in the first 10 minutes after waking than I get all day at work.

And somewhere along the way, she did lose respect for me. Even promotions/raises at work barely get acknowledgement, let alone praise.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

With respect to the CSA, you note the following:



> good memory on the CSA thing. So with regards to this, it seems through light conversation on it and on sex itself, that this isnt a lingering issue(but maybe it is buried deep down?). There is also no issue with regards to her acting strange during the act or enjoying the sex when we do have it. So like others have said, when we do it, she seems to enjoy it, she just never wants to really do it.


By her words, this seems to indicate that this is not an issue. But you then post this:



BostonBruins32 said:


> Was she always like this with you? *Started really after marriage, even the honeymoon included only 1 session*


and this:



> Did you wait til marriage for sex? *no, much higher frequency during 4 year courtship.*


One theme I have seen with other posters is that if the CSA was from a loved one, a deep commitment like marriage can trigger a change in their perception of their spouse. So it is not clear to me that the CSA is not an issue here (not saying it has to be the issue, only that it is too soon to dismiss).


----------



## SadSamIAm

BostonBruins32 said:


> additionally.. id take some feedback on my not initiating it.
> 
> Just thinking out loud here.. but when I stop initiating, what does that do for the situation? nothing? does it send a message? does it make things easier for myself? Does it make her wonder why i stopped trying? I'm not even sure why i stopped initiating, other than I'm just tired of rejection. It could be just hurting myself and doing nothing for the situation.. no clue.


In my experience, if I don't initiate, we don't have sex. 

So I can lay there for hours wishing she would reach out to me or I can reach out to her and get rejected 90% of the time. 

If I initiate we have sex every 10 days or so. If I don't we would never have sex.

I choose to initiate. I don't like it. I don't like feeling like a charity case. 

The day may come when I just don't come home.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> With respect to the CSA, you note the following:
> 
> 
> 
> By her words, this seems to indicate that this is not an issue. But you then post this:
> 
> 
> 
> and this:
> 
> 
> 
> One theme I have seen with other posters is that if the CSA was from a loved one, a deep commitment like marriage can trigger a change in their perception of their spouse. So it is not clear to me that the CSA is not an issue here (not saying it has to be the issue, only that it is too soon to dismiss).


i get that idea. the only counter arguement i can think of is the old bait and switch thing that 90% of HD spouses complain of. after marriage sex dies way down. it could be the csa driving this, but then what about the other 89% of people experiencing the so called bait and switch?

My hope is to get some different perspectives from LDs who have been able to identify the reasons. I certainly wont exhaust the option of it being CSA driving this. But I want to learn more about and try to work on any other option that might be there..ie if she has lost respect for me, what are the signs. if she is not attracted to me, what are the signs..if she isnt in love with me, what are the signs. The shared experiences from a wide range of folks on TAM help me better understand all the different angles that could be at play. Many of those involve working on myself. And if in the end working on myself doesnt change anything, then I can safely say a big decision would have to be made: stay or go.


----------



## treyvion

SadSamIAm said:


> In my experience, if I don't initiate, we don't have sex.
> 
> So I can lay there for hours wishing she would reach out to me or I can reach out to her and get rejected 90% of the time.
> 
> If I initiate we have sex every 10 days or so. If I don't we would never have sex.
> 
> I choose to initiate. I don't like it. I don't like feeling like a charity case.
> 
> The day may come when I just don't come home.


Painfully, but with strength initiate twice as much.

We have a poster that had to deal with a certain level of rejection rate, however he found if he didn't ask for more he definately would not get more.

Initiate twice as much and see if you get more output.

Then perhaps if she is staunch about doing it once or twice a month or whatever the number is, see if she can't schedule it so you won't have to take rejection.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
How old is your child? 

Does your wife respect you? The list below makes it easier to gauge where you are on the respect continuum:

1. Respect for your feelings
- Does she apologize when she is in the wrong?
- Does she gracefully take turns in choosing activities - which movie to watch, type of food to eat, etc.
2. Money
- Are you both good about sticking to the budget
- Are you both generous within the budget - with each other
3. Time
- Is she supportive of you having recreational time and time out with friends?
- Does she do a fair amount of housework in relation to your respective work schedules 

Does she take you for granted? 

How does she show you love? 

---
What do you two have conflict over, other than sex?

Do you mostly just 'do what she asks'? Do you spoil her?

Are you the one who is almost always initiating loving gestures?
Do you usually say 'I love you' first?
Do you initiate hugs? 
Ask her to spend time with you? 

When you two talk does she normally give you her undivided attention? Or are you competing with the baby/phone/computer?

When you talk, who does most of the talking?




BostonBruins32 said:


> 2 thoughts:
> 
> I sometimes worry that the low desire thing is only low desire with me. IE would she have more desire with someone else even after their "honeymoon phase"?
> 
> Also, what has been the outcome of you not being there for her? Has she responded? what have you stopped doing?


----------



## john117

unbelievable said:


> There are things that are vitally important to your wife. Whatever they are, if they were linked to her sexual performance, her knickers would be flying off. I believe most sexless spouses, like most abusive or lazy spouses, are the way they are because their rewards are not linked to their performance.



I have seen plenty of evidence in my wife's case at least that suggests there is no reward large enough or penalty large enough to cause them to change behavior. I spent most of a year looking at it. It's once a month and that's all. Awesome, but once a month. 

Her brain seems to have two positions for frequency. Daily and monthly. No in between notches. Any attempt to improve is seen as an attempt to go daily.

She was not always like that of course, but between BPD, cultural issues, and unresolved resentment that's all it is now.


----------



## BostonBruins32

SadSamIAm said:


> In my experience, if I don't initiate, we don't have sex.
> 
> So I can lay there for hours wishing she would reach out to me or I can reach out to her and get rejected 90% of the time.
> 
> If I initiate we have sex every 10 days or so. If I don't we would never have sex.
> 
> I choose to initiate. I don't like it. I don't like feeling like a charity case.
> 
> The day may come when I just don't come home.


I hear ya. I dont think a day will come where I dont come home. I just think a day will come when I've shut myself off from her emotionally.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> How old is your child? *2 almost 3*
> 
> Does your wife respect you? The list below makes it easier to gauge where you are on the respect continuum:
> 
> 1. Respect for your feelings
> - Does she apologize when she is in the wrong? *Not as much as she should.*
> - Does she gracefully take turns in choosing activities - which movie to watch, type of food to eat, etc.*Yes, very good about this stuff, i think she prefers i choose most of the time to be honest*
> 2. Money
> - Are you both good about sticking to the budget*yes.. she would like to do more things around the house for example, but we have a clear limit on what and when*
> - Are you both generous within the budget - with each other*i was the sole money maker, and made it very clear i do not want her to ask for permission to buy things for herself. she has her budget, and she manages to it *
> 3. Time
> - Is she supportive of you having recreational time and time out with friends? *Yes supportive*
> - Does she do a fair amount of housework in relation to your respective work schedules *Yes, on housework. I think with respective work schedules, I take care of our daughter more (like a 70/30 split)*
> 
> Does she take you for granted? *Sometimes I think so, but she would say she doesnt.*
> 
> How does she show you love? *by saying it, by kissing or hugging or hand holding. by asking me to join her if shes going shopping or running errands on the weekends. i think she thinks cleaning the house and doing laundry etc is a form of affection too..or her way of showing shes cares*
> 
> ---
> What do you two have conflict over, other than sex? *to be clear the conflict over sex is more internally for me..she doesnt see a problem with it and we discuss it every 4 months or so.. most conflict is from disagreements on how to handle situation with daughter or if my wife is in a bad mood for whatever reason, she is snippy with me. I used to bite back, but I just now tell her theres no need to talk to me like that, and I walk away.*
> 
> Do you mostly just 'do what she asks'? Do you spoil her?*I tend to do what she asks or offer to do things, unless unreasonable. if she asks for help with some housework or asks for help fixing something in the house or car i help her. i dont know if i spoil her? i buy her a random card just noting i love her. I open car doors. we do a biweekly date night that i organize. *
> 
> Are you the one who is almost always initiating loving gestures?*outside the bedroom it is probably 50/50*
> Do you usually say 'I love you' first? *probably 50/50*
> Do you initiate hugs? *i probably initiate hugs, but she initiates hand holding and or other touching*
> Ask her to spend time with you? *50/50.. thought i set up our dates, which i think she likes me to take the lead on.*
> 
> When you two talk does she normally give you her undivided attention? Or are you competing with the baby/phone/computer?*she listens pretty good. sometimes tehre is a distraction, but for the most part pretty good.*
> 
> When you talk, who does most of the talking? *i used to talk more, but over the past few months, i've shut up and listened more. she more intravert and i'm extravert, but i notice sometimes she really likes to just vent and be heard, rather than vent and have repsonses for everything.*



Thoughts?


----------



## SadSamIAm

BostonBruins32 said:


> I hear ya. I dont think a day will come where I dont come home. I just think a day will come when I've shut myself off from her emotionally.


The shut myself off from her emotionally part is happening. 

When it is done, and my kids are all out of high school, I will be thinking strongly about not coming home.

We only live once. I am 50 and not going to spend the rest of my life begging for affection/sex/love.


----------



## usmarriedguy

After our initial mating phase of 5 times a week my wife finally complained that we where having too much sex. An interesting comment she made was: "you just want to do it five times a week because you can and not because you need to"

In other words, in her mind her interest was perfectly normal and I was over indulging just for fun and not because I really need that much sex. Once that starts than it is not far to "I am just a sex doll to him" 

Well she was correct and I did not really need sex that often. We settled on once a week and that is OK and I do not need her to initiate or take any extra interest. 

She never reads romance novels, she would never pick up a Cosmopolitan because it had "10 great sexy things to surprise your guy", uncomfortable with toys and oral, would never buy sexy clothes, etc...

She enjoys sex but she is just not into it as a hobby.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> After our initial mating phase of 5 times a week my wife finally complained that we where having too much sex. An interesting comment she made was: "you just want to do it five times a week because you can and not because you need to"
> 
> In other words, in her mind her interest was perfectly normal and I was over indulging just for fun and not because I really need that much sex. Once that starts than it is not far to "I am just a sex doll to him"
> 
> Well she was correct and I did not really need sex that often. We settled on once a week and that is OK and I do not need her to initiate or take any extra interest.
> 
> She never reads romance novels, she would never pick up a Cosmopolitan because it had "10 great sexy things to surprise your guy", uncomfortable with toys and oral, would never buy sexy clothes, etc...
> 
> She enjoys sex but she is just not into it as a hobby.


Interesting. See I'm not sure my wife reads those articles either. But she still enjoys dressing somewhat sexy sometimes (..and yes before the "does she dress sexy for you" comments start, yes she dresses up for our dates etc) and still can recognize someone being attractive etc.. Its just the act of doing it has faded on her. 

So I feel like theres a sex button there somewhere, I just have no clue how to activate it. Or maybe the sex button is unrelated to the sexual act button. ..?


----------



## coupdegrace

Seeing these threads scares the hell out of me. My wife is already LD, and it seems that once most couples have children, the majority of women go from LD to ND. There's nothing I want more than to have a child (preferably a son), but to sacrifice what little affection I currently have would be a crippling blow to my ego and our relationship... and there's no discernable rhyme or reason to what causes the change or what the solution is.


----------



## BostonBruins32

coupdegrace said:


> Seeing these threads scares the hell out of me. My wife is already LD, and it seems that once most couples have children, the majority of women go from LD to ND. There's nothing I want more than to have a child (preferably a son), but to sacrifice what little affection I currently have would be a crippling blow to my ego and our relationship... and there's no discernable rhyme or reason to what causes the change or what the solution is.


I think it goes back to the wedding cake. My guess is there is something the baker puts in there that shuts off the sex drive. Or the ring? Engagement rings have libido deactivators built into them.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I just feel fortunate after reading other stories that we have sex almost every week. But I am pretty sure after 13 years that there is nothing I could do to increase her drive. I try to tailor sex exactly to her, some weeks she probably would just as soon not have sex but once we get going she almost always 99.99% of the time has an O.

Unfortunately it sounds like your wife is much lower drive (we did not have kids so that helps us) 

Just my experience but I guess you will need to work out some time frame for regular sex that she can live with and where you are not being rejected so often.

and by the way: not having kids was just an accident but with hind sight and now age 52 I am really glad I did not.

My wife gave up on the 5 times a week before we got married.


----------



## MotoDude

I have always tho marriage life was like this, specially the sex department! My wife never initiate and sex is discussing to her. It's all the same, voice all the important of what sex is or it does, wont go to counseling when suggested, she said they are bad to. Not going to go more deeper into this as it's all been posted to many times.

I am glad I ran into TAM, it open up my mind and what I been missing the last 17 years of marriage total 19 years together. No BJ's, just quiet sex.

Fast forward, I stop asking and I moved out. Paper work will soon be sent to her.

I'm more happier, and I know now what I've been missing and my next woman will not be like my wife.

I was going to wait til my kid out to college in 4 years...but HELL no way I'm waiting!


----------



## treyvion

BostonBruins32 said:


> I think it goes back to the wedding cake. My guess is there is something the baker puts in there that shuts off the sex drive. Or the ring? Engagement rings have libido deactivators built into them.


Engagement ring is ok... It's marriage which does it for some of them.

If someone shuts down on you with engagement ring I'd point it out, because that's way to early to be having that problem.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Those answers are very helpful. 

This is good because:
- overall you have a healthy relationship outside the bedroom and
- your wife responds well to you taking charge

So we can focus on your sexual dynamic.

First step is to accept the brutal reality of your current situation, which is a borderline sexless marriage with a wife who is totally comfortable ignoring your core emotional need as a man. 

Second step is to recognize that you are going to do a bunch of stuff that is:
- good for you personally
- good for your marriage 
- therefore good for your child 

And after doing that, you are almost certain to see no change. But that is ok, because all that foundation work is going to set you up for success when you destabilize the marriage. 

All the stuff below is intended to begin rebalancing the marriage. Because right now, she is eroding your self confidence and sense of masculinity and that is toxic for you. 

Specifics: first do no harm
Best to eliminate common sexual behaviors that tend to be counterproductive in a sexless marriage. If you don't do these at all, great. But if you are doing them, stop completely. 
1. Stop touching your wife in a sexual way/groping her
2. Stop making sexual jokes/comments
3. Stop complimenting her sexually (even on date night: do NOT say - you look hot even if she does)
4. Stop commenting on her appearance entirely 
5. If she asks you the normal questions: do you like my hair, do I look fat in this dress, etc?
Turn and face her. Give her a measured look and then respond with: What really matters is how you feel about it. 
If she presses you, just smile and say 'it's a mystery'. 
6. No sexting
7. No flirting on your date nights - flirting in a sexless marriage just amplifies the theme that the refusers feelings matter and the rejecteds feelings don't. 

No changes at all to affection and saying 'I love you'. 
-------
As for date nights:
- No Movie dates
- No Restaurant dates
Because those are soft and bonding things. Your bond is plenty strong - what you need to inject is playfulness and adventure. You need to hit her dopamine triggers. 

Dates are therefore to be some type of activity or challenge. 
- Mini golf
- Go kart racing 
- Rock wall climbing 

I am going to stop here other than to add two last things:
- Start lifting weights and working out. Create a V shaped body. Wide shoulders, narrow waist. 
- Find ways to be playful (not directly sexual) with your wife. Try to provoke some physical playfulness. I take the remote from my wife and then just give her a little smile and say: if you really wanted the remote back, you would just take it back. 

This is hard stuff. It will take you a year to get good at it.

In the meantime you must INSIST on wearing a condom if your wife initiates sex. And if asked why just say: I am not ready to have another child and am just being extra careful. 

Eventually, if need be, you will tell her that you flat out refuse to even discuss more children until this part of your marriage is fixed.






BostonBruins32 said:


> Thoughts?


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> I think it goes back to the wedding cake. My guess is there is something the baker puts in there that shuts off the sex drive. Or the ring? Engagement rings have libido deactivators built into them.


Opening this can of worms would get everyone messy!

Coupdegrace, I would love to read your story if you feel comfortable starting a new thread...unless you already have one somewhere and I haven't seen it...post a link if you do.


----------



## john117

MEM, there are LD ladies out there that couldn't be enticed to sex with a v shaped anything... 

A small percentage are LD's for their spouses but it looks to me the majority just are LD's. 

As long as we're not talking Quasimodo looks and Swamp Thing hygiene looks are fair game. My wife looks a lot worse at 54 than she did at 24. Heck, at 44 she could pass for 30 easily. The last decade, esp the last 5 years she did get a lot older. I'm not saying this in a negative way. She just did. She's in a heck of a lot better shape than any of her friends, still size 6, and with a few $ for Botox and such she could do some major miracles. Instead, I have to drag her to Macys to get expensive Estée Lauder stuff and bug her to use then as directed. 

Do you think such a person will notice if I develop a v-chest when she won't notice the pile of Estée Lauder stuff sitting on her vanity?

I understand rejection is hard but at some point one has to throw in a towel.


----------



## treyvion

MotoDude said:


> I have always tho marriage life was like this, specially the sex department! My wife never initiate and sex is discussing to her. It's all the same, voice all the important of what sex is or it does, wont go to counseling when suggested, she said they are bad to. Not going to go more deeper into this as it's all been posted to many times.
> 
> I am glad I ran into TAM, it open up my mind and what I been missing the last 17 years of marriage total 19 years together. No BJ's, just quiet sex.
> 
> Fast forward, I stop asking and I moved out. Paper work will soon be sent to her.
> 
> I'm more happier, and I know now what I've been missing and my next woman will not be like my wife.
> 
> I was going to wait til my kid out to college in 4 years...but HELL no way I'm waiting!


You've been having sex for 17 years. Congratulations. Just being single doesn't guarantee that you will have tons of sex. However if you don't the responsibility is on you to get it...


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> Those answers are very helpful.
> 
> This is good because:
> - overall you have a healthy relationship outside the bedroom and
> - your wife responds well to you taking charge
> 
> So we can focus on your sexual dynamic.
> 
> First step is to accept the brutal reality of your current situation, which is a borderline sexless marriage with a wife who is totally comfortable ignoring your core emotional need as a man.
> 
> Second step is to recognize that you are going to do a bunch of stuff that is:
> - good for you personally
> - good for your marriage
> - therefore good for your child
> 
> And after doing that, you are almost certain to see no change. But that is ok, because all that foundation work is going to set you up for success when you destabilize the marriage.
> 
> All the stuff below is intended to begin rebalancing the marriage. Because right now, she is eroding your self confidence and sense of masculinity and that is toxic for you.
> 
> Specifics: first do no harm
> Best to eliminate common sexual behaviors that tend to be counterproductive in a sexless marriage. If you don't do these at all, great. But if you are doing them, stop completely.
> 1. Stop touching your wife in a sexual way/groping her
> 2. Stop making sexual jokes/comments
> 3. Stop complimenting her sexually (even on date night: do NOT say - you look hot even if she does)
> 4. Stop commenting on her appearance entirely
> 5. If she asks you the normal questions: do you like my hair, do I look fat in this dress, etc?
> Turn and face her. Give her a measured look and then respond with: What really matters is how you feel about it.
> If she presses you, just smile and say 'it's a mystery'.
> 6. No sexting
> 7. No flirting on your date nights - flirting in a sexless marriage just amplifies the theme that the refusers feelings matter and the rejecteds feelings don't.
> 
> No changes at all to affection and saying 'I love you'.
> -------
> As for date nights:
> - No Movie dates
> - No Restaurant dates
> Because those are soft and bonding things. Your bond is plenty strong - what you need to inject is playfulness and adventure. You need to hit her dopamine triggers.
> 
> Dates are therefore to be some type of activity or challenge.
> - Mini golf
> - Go kart racing
> - Rock wall climbing
> 
> I am going to stop here other than to add two last things:
> - Start lifting weights and working out. Create a V shaped body. Wide shoulders, narrow waist.
> - Find ways to be playful (not directly sexual) with your wife. Try to provoke some physical playfulness. I take the remote from my wife and then just give her a little smile and say: if you really wanted the remote back, you would just take it back.
> 
> This is hard stuff. It will take you a year to get good at it.
> 
> In the meantime you must INSIST on wearing a condom if your wife initiates sex. And if asked why just say: I am not ready to have another child and am just being extra careful.
> 
> Eventually, if need be, you will tell her that you flat out refuse to even discuss more children until this part of your marriage is fixed.



Interesting. Some of this I've been doing now, as it intuitively felt like the right valves yo shut off..(I don't watch her change, eased up on compliments, etc)

Has there been success from others after this stuff? I very much thing at the very least it will get her attention. Mmsl arrives today. Looking forward to that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy

I guess those might work if her problem is that she wants sex but needs a guy to be more indifferent or aloof. Or as a way to communicate that your not happy without having to actually talk. 

But why would you want to go thru months of acting cold toward your wife in the hopes that she will notice that you are not happy?

Wouldn't it be much easier just to talk?


----------



## MEM2020

US,
What exactly is 'cold' about my suggestions? 

I specifically targeted his sexual dynamic with her. Because a 90 percent rejection rate means that he has been hemorrhaging sexual energy while she calmly ignores it and his distress. 

If you take dopamine out of the equation my wife will tolerate occasional sex. But with a nice blend of dopamine in the mix she is a tigress in bed. And all the happier for it. 




QUOTE=usmarriedguy;6634257]I guess those might work if her problem is that she wants sex but needs a guy to be more indifferent or aloof. Or as a way to communicate that your not happy without having to actually talk. 

But why would you want to go thru months of acting cold toward your wife in the hopes that she will notice that you are not happy?

Wouldn't it be much easier just to talk?[/QUOTE]


----------



## treyvion

MEM11363 said:


> US,
> What exactly is 'cold' about my suggestions?
> 
> I specifically targeted his sexual dynamic with her. Because a 90 percent rejection rate means that he has been hemorrhaging sexual energy while she calmly ignores it and his distress.
> 
> If you take dopamine out of the equation my wife will tolerate occasional sex. But with a nice blend of dopamine in the mix she is a tigress in bed. And all the happier for it.


How are you getting the dopamine flowing?


----------



## committed4ever

I'm not LD but I just went through and LD period of almost a month. I went through one before after 3 years on the pill, but not like this. I just came back on my cycle for the first time from pregnancy and delivery and at the end of it, my drive shot right back up. Maybe the LD came from hormone changes related to coming back on my cycle.

Anyway, I will have to say if it were not for TAM I don't think I would have thought to fight through this. Two things worked to still have sex despite how I was feeling:

1. Remembering the heartbreak posted on TAM from people suffering through their partner's LD.

2. Telling myself when my H initiated "he needs sex to feel love. He needs sex to feel loved. He needs sex to feel loved." And I love my H so much, that worked for me. So I didn't turn him down at all during this period. About halfway through the act, it would get good and feel good.

So i wonder, OP, is there any chance of introducing her to TAM and asking her to read the LD threads? Even if you think you would have to delete your threads/posts first? Maybe not point her directly to the LD threads, but just the SIM forum and let her find them. I swear I had no idea of the depth/dynamic of sex from men viewpoint until reading here on TAM. And we have had a very good sex life


----------



## john117

There are LD's who simply do not understand the impact of their actions and choices on their partners, and there are LD's who do understand the impact but choose to ignore it or even use it as a power ploy. 

I've used slightly politically incorrect terms for those two choices in the past but that's what it is. No way 'round it. 

I feel MMSL and NMMNG and the like work great on the first type but in my experience fail miserably on the second type because they do not address the dynamics of resentment and other issues that cause the shift. 

LD is more of a state of mind than a "condition". A condition assumes you can either cure it, mitigate it some, or live with it without it consuming your relationship. A state of mind is more consuming. If the LD is motivated to dish out affection an ounce per month it's not as simple as saying no for 29 out of 30 nights. There's a lot more effort required to scheme out of doing it...


----------



## techmom

john117 said:


> There are LD's who simply do not understand the impact of their actions and choices on their partners, and there are LD's who do understand the impact but choose to ignore it or even use it as a power ploy.
> 
> I've used slightly politically incorrect terms for those two choices in the past but that's what it is. No way 'round it.
> 
> I feel MMSL and NMMNG and the like work great on the first type but in my experience fail miserably on the second type because they do not address the dynamics of resentment and other issues that cause the shift.
> 
> LD is more of a state of mind than a "condition". A condition assumes you can either cure it, mitigate it some, or live with it without it consuming your relationship. A state of mind is more consuming. If the LD is motivated to dish out affection an ounce per month it's not as simple as saying no for 29 out of 30 nights. There's a lot more effort required to scheme out of doing it...


LD is not a scheme, it is how some people are. Just like HD is not a scheme. Some can say that people who are HD use sex to fill an empty space, and they "scheme" to use their partner for that purpose. That sounds ridiculous as saying that LDs scheme to get out of sex. It only seems that way when the HD is really pressuring for sex and getting clingy.


----------



## john117

Please read what I wrote one more time.... The scheme is the unending array of excuses that seem to pop up in days 1-29...

Most of us ND's would be far more amenable to be told in no uncertain terms "that is what it is and why it is". Instead, we are shunned aside, with nary an explanation.

I make an excellent living studying minute details of people's behavior and actions. How long do you think it took me to figure out that sinus attacks and other ailments always visited on weekends? Miraculously she was cured of her sinus attacks once I threw in the towel.

LD would be far more tolerable by the non LD's if honesty wasn't the first thing to be flushed down the toilet.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
The fitness training - strength training in particular typically produces the following 'side effects' for a male:
- They feel 'better', more energetic
- Increased self confidence 
- They get noticed more by females in public/social situations
- Their T levels rise making it easier to initiate some of the playful conflict that requires 'edge'

By itself, not a huge deal, but as part of a package of self improvement it is a nice amplifier.

For a female spouse that cares 'what the neighbors think' this is a plus. It is also a sexier look for most women. And and and, if Boston can get his wife to start engaging in playful physical conflict, it allows him to easily dominate her physically which, when done properly is a turn on for many/most women. 

------

John,
I understand that your wife is totally intractable, but Boston's wife might not be. Since he is young, and this change will come fairly easily for him, he would be foolish not to try it. 

In addition this complements a strategy of being 'more attractive and less available' in the following way. He starts going to the gym 3-4 times a week. And in the US at least, it is blatantly selfish to try to prevent/discourage your spouse from exercising/going to the gym. So far his wife seems to have limited most of her extremely selfish behavior to the bedroom. 




QUOTE=john117;6627881]MEM, there are LD ladies out there that couldn't be enticed to sex with a v shaped anything... 

A small percentage are LD's for their spouses but it looks to me the majority just are LD's. 

As long as we're not talking Quasimodo looks and Swamp Thing hygiene looks are fair game. My wife looks a lot worse at 54 than she did at 24. Heck, at 44 she could pass for 30 easily. The last decade, esp the last 5 years she did get a lot older. I'm not saying this in a negative way. She just did. She's in a heck of a lot better shape than any of her friends, still size 6, and with a few $ for Botox and such she could do some major miracles. Instead, I have to drag her to Macys to get expensive Estée Lauder stuff and bug her to use then as directed. 

Do you think such a person will notice if I develop a v-chest when she won't notice the pile of Estée Lauder stuff sitting on her vanity?

I understand rejection is hard but at some point one has to throw in a towel.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

Strength training takes years to show changes worthy of being noticed - and at a young age testosterone should not be an issue. Put the time instead on a well executed 180.

There's a big difference between once a month at 55 vs once a month at 30. Direct communication is best - this is where we are and this is where we're going type of conversation, followed by IC and MC. If she does not go along, that's all she wrote.

Things like those should not be happening this early. Should not be happening at all, but at 40 or 50 is quite different than at 30.


----------



## MEM2020

Trey,
Glad you asked, as I believe that is really, really important in many sexually impaired marriages. 

I want to start with some context, Mrs. MEM is a dopamine junkie. BTW, dopamine significantly dilates your pupils. And hers definitely dilate in the situations below. 
So here goes our dopamine regimen:
1. Conflict 
A. Physical conflict
- Sparring/wrestling 
- Racquet sports (racquetball and tennis)
B. Mental conflict
- High speed board games/word games (not slow speed, deep strategy games)
- Verbal sparring/high speed banter - rhyming humor/insults
2. Novelty
- Learning something new together
- Me surprising her with something fun and/or scary

-----------
From wiki - biological basis of love

Studies in neuroscience have involved chemicals that are present in the brain and might be involved when people experience love. These chemicals include: nerve growth factor,[8] testosterone, estrogen, dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, oxytocin, and vasopressin.[9] Adequate brain levels of testosterone seem important for both human male and female sexual behavior.[10] Dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin are more commonly found during the attraction phase of a relationship.[11] Oxytocin and vasopressin seemed to be more closely linked to long term bonding and relationships characterized by strong attachments.
The conventional view in biology is that there are two major drives in love — sexual attraction and attachment.[12] Attachment between adults is presumed to work on the same principles that lead an infant to become attached to his or her mother or father– or both.
The chemicals triggered that are responsible for passionate love and long-term attachment love seem to be more particular to the activities in which both persons participate rather than to the nature of the specific people involved.[12]




treyvion said:


> How are you getting the dopamine flowing?


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
For some women, total commitment/total stability kill the excitement/dopamine they need to feel desire. Those women need a challenge to feel desire. Take away the challenge and you kill the sex for them.

The strategy with a woman like that is simple. 
1. Make yourself more attractive and
2. Less available and
3. Create some 'soft' uncertainty/disquiet


The soft uncertainty should be done openly:
Put a circle with a slash through it on the kitchen calendar in the box for every day you don't have sex. And a smiley face on each day you do. 

Eventually let her know - no more kids until resolution. And further, tell her resolution is your wife learning how to work with her responsive desire and getting to a frequency compromise that is mutually acceptable. 

Sign up for a weekly massage at a reputable (not a cathouse) massage place like massage envy. Get your massages from a female massage. Let your wife have 'right of first refusal' on the massages. If she is willing to give you a comparable massage to what you can buy, you let her. 

Eventually you start spending time doing social things without her. 

I don't think you are mentally prepared for the last stage of creating disquiet so I will refrain from mentioning it for now. 



BostonBruins32 said:


> I think it goes back to the wedding cake. My guess is there is something the baker puts in there that shuts off the sex drive. Or the ring? Engagement rings have libido deactivators built into them.


----------



## usmarriedguy

MEM11363 said:


> US,
> What exactly is 'cold' about my suggestions?


Well you have eliminated pretty much all activities that one would do with a wife (all soft bonding) Can't even go out to dinner with her.

Basically treat her like a friend -but you can say I love you (which he can also say to his mom)

Yes I suppose that if fear of losing someone triggers a woman's interest in sex than the guy will have to spend the rest of his life threatening to leave. 

It seems like it would be easier to cut to the chase. And simply explain that the situation is not acceptable and you will give it a few more months to change.

And if dopamine is that important why would we ever stop having sex? 

But ooooh, the magical powers of miniature golf. 

Sorry, this is nothing but junk science.


----------



## BostonBruins32

very interesting..

And with regards to initiating.. Should I shut this off and let her initiate?

It sounds like I should just continue to work on myself. During this process I think I may end up with a real real long time sexless. I also have been reading the MMSL book, just arrived yesterday. 

Also with regards to physical health, I wonder if this plays a role here. I have abs that show, low body fat %, and my upper body obviously looks like I work out. I'm not saying this to sound conceited but rather making the point that a physical transformation may have little to do with this. THe only improvement I could really notably do is lift weights more aggressively to slap on 15 LBs or something. My point is that I'm in better shape than about 90% of our friends and or her friend's husbands. So is this V thing really necessary, or is the fact that im already in shape proof that nothing physical would change her stance?

Also, I'll take the bait: detail the creating uncertainty/disquiet thing please.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"detail the creating uncertainty/disquiet"

Seems pretty straight forward to me. You behave in a way so that she is not certain if she has you. Flirting with other women, spending your free time going out to the bar with the guys, etc.. 

Things that make her view you as being a prize that other women want.


----------



## john117

Let me be honest here. If your marriage was a business relationship and the wife was not delivering her side of the bargain, would you try NMMNG or MMSL style techniques or would you cut down to the chase and explain how she's putting the business partnership at risk? Along with reiteration of expectations, a timeline towards improvement, etc.

Or another way. Let's say you do an awesome job at work but no pay raises are coming. Would you try similar techniques there? A marriage is not too different from a business relationship. 

As for MEM's dopamine list it seems to me one needs to understand causes and effects a bit more. If I had the time and energy to drag my wife to play racquetball or spend half a day playing Halo against me online to get the juices flowing the time spent together would improve the relationship, and presumably the desire. Not the chemicals. Still an intriguing thought...


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> "detail the creating uncertainty/disquiet"
> 
> 
> 
> Seems pretty straight forward to me. You behave in a way so that she is not certain if she has you. Flirting with other women, spending your free time going out to the bar with the guys, etc..
> 
> 
> 
> Things that make her view you as being a prize that other women want.



You may be able to keep this going for a while - but presumably after the wife makes the discovery that you aren't hitting on the waitress at Hooters, and that she's "safe", then what.

Or if she believes you won't do it because of religious upbringing, personality, etc. 

It may work for some cases but it's not a cure all the way it is portrayed. 

Direct communication wastes far less time and tells both partners where they stand. 

Note the 180 I am ok with, but the emphasis on "self improvement" is a bit too optimistic in my view.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> You may be able to keep this going for a while - but presumably after the wife makes the discovery that you aren't hitting on the waitress at Hooters, and that she's "safe", then what.
> 
> Or if she believes you won't do it because of religious upbringing, personality, etc.
> 
> It may work for some cases but it's not a cure all the way it is portrayed.
> 
> Direct communication wastes far less time and tells both partners where they stand.
> 
> Note the 180 I am ok with, but the emphasis on "self improvement" is a bit too optimistic in my view.


John, are you suggesting that the quest for self improvement is too exhausting to keep up? That maintaining ones weight at a decent point on the scale compared to the day they married, that keeping oneself involved and engaged in life outside of work and home, that expanding one's repertoire of activities is too much to ask?

Are you my husband?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> John, are you suggesting that the quest for self improvement is too exhausting to keep up? That maintaining ones weight at a decent point on the scale compared to the day they married, that keeping oneself involved and engaged in life outside of work and home, that expanding one's repertoire of activities is too much to ask?
> 
> Are you my husband?


I think he misworded that. keeping self improvement up is an ongoing life thing. Everyone should do that. I think the idea of trying to prove through certain actions that you are desireable for the sake of winning your wife over may become tiresome. It sounds exhausting to play games to win her back. 

so the sweet spot is somewhere between I'd imagine. Improve yourself, maintain some respect for yourself and her, maintain some health..and in theory she should find attraction in you. 

Unfortunately its just hard for men to really accept this. My wife has a ton of flaws, but i still find her attractive and desireable in and out of the bedroom. Women are different, and much more complicated. or so it seems. <-- and yes I admittedly have NO clue how women operate


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> I think he misworded that. keeping self improvement up is an ongoing life thing. Everyone should do that. I think the idea of trying to prove through certain actions that you are desireable for the sake of winning your wife over may become tiresome. It sounds exhausting to play games to win her back.
> 
> so the sweet spot is somewhere between I'd imagine. Improve yourself, maintain some respect for yourself and her, maintain some health..and in theory she should find attraction in you.
> 
> Unfortunately its just hard for men to really accept this. My wife has a ton of flaws, but i still find her attractive and desireable in and out of the bedroom. Women are different, and much more complicated. or so it seems. <-- and yes I admittedly have NO clue how women operate


True, but the points MEM made were excellent points. Competition is a language so to speak. Whether you two compete against each other in tennis or she competes against other women it raises her awareness of YOU...particularly if you can beat her...my h usually beat me when we played even though I always considered myself a better player than him and in better shape than him and he pulled back on his serves where as I ripped them in and yet I could not beat him! 

Yes, we are much more complicated and we wish it wasn't so.

I believe in MEM's advice and think you should take on board as much of it as possible.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Self improvement is a benefit in itself regardless of ones sex life. 

If she is not interested in sex it will certainly be better for him to find other activities that will distract him. These things are just not likely to make her want sex more. 

With one exception. She actually wants sex but he is not doing it for her because he is to easy. 

Not very likely.


----------



## Anon Pink

usmarriedguy said:


> With one exception. She actually wants sex but he is not doing it for her because he is to easy.
> 
> Not very likely.



I disagree. As I read MEM's suggestions I was really taken with how well they would have worked with me back in my ND days and how wonderfully they would work now. In fact, I plan to suggest them to my husband because at the moment our relationship is on another down turn and I have shockingly not been interested in sex at all for over a week. Most unusual for me!


----------



## Married but Happy

I think MEM's information and advice is the most hopeful and potentially successful approach I've yet seen to rekindling desire. It meshes perfectly with the science and psychology I've read about before.

So, what's to lose by trying it? It's really just self-improvement, plus the 180, with a few key behavioral changes that will affect her perceptions in a positive way if they work. If it's too difficult to put into practice, and confronting/talking don't work for you, then it's time to leave.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> John, are you suggesting that the quest for self improvement is too exhausting to keep up? That maintaining ones weight at a decent point on the scale compared to the day they married, that keeping oneself involved and engaged in life outside of work and home, that expanding one's repertoire of activities is too much to ask?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you my husband?



How's your cooking 

I have no issue with self improvement as a goal in itself - not as a stepping stone towards increasing sex drive of anyone.

Staying engaged etc is a noble goal but it takes all kinds of activities to stay engaged including physical intimacy. 

What's so difficult about honest talk?


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> How's your cooking
> 
> I have no issue with self improvement as a goal in itself - not as a stepping stone towards increasing sex drive of anyone.
> 
> Staying engaged etc is a noble goal but it takes all kinds of activities to stay engaged including physical intimacy.
> 
> What's so difficult about honest talk?


Honest talk would be great. But this has been tried a few times and even with a counselor. I've been very honest about the hurt the rejection feels and how the lack of intimacy in the bedroom hurts an emotional connection I have/want to have with her. 

So a talk is awesome, but it takes two to have a conversation. Or it takes two to have at least reception/understanding. I've tried this a boat load of times without results. new approach needed.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> How's your cooking
> 
> I have no issue with self improvement as a goal in itself - not as a stepping stone towards increasing sex drive of anyone.
> 
> Staying engaged etc is a noble goal but it takes all kinds of activities to stay engaged including physical intimacy.
> 
> What's so difficult about honest talk?


Self improvement and making oneself a more energized and passionate IS the goal. The side benefit would be that it will increase a man's overall attractiveness. Perhaps not with the lovely Mrs. Dr. LD, but with the vast majority of women.

Reminds me of when my husband suggested we needed to spice up our sex life so he purchased a racey pair of boxers...yet presented the exact same bloated figure I'd been looking at for years, the exact same passive approach to live, the exact same narrow interest level... So those boxers...not a hit.

ETA I am a fabulous cook!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I think that Boston should think about this when trying to decide whether to listen to John or MEM: John is nearly sexless and resigned to his fate. MEM has turned his situation around and is getting it all the time using his strategy.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"So a talk is awesome, but it takes two to have a conversation. Or it takes two to have at least reception/understanding. I've tried this a boat load of times without results. new approach needed"

She has possibly figured out you are all talk and no action? So as long as you are a pleasant enough roommate and responsible father what is her incentive?


----------



## john117

John is simply pointing out that there are innocent LD's for which sex may not be a priority as high as their spouses and not so innocent LD's that do not care about their spouses emotional happiness. Or a mix of the two.

The first type is fixable via DIY while the second is likely not. 

Make sure you know what is your LD before embarking in any long term projects of any type and any usefulness.

The majority of LD's mentioned here seem to be the not so innocent variety or so it seems to me. Once a month at 55 is different from once a month at 30. Not a difficult concept.


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> "So a talk is awesome, but it takes two to have a conversation. Or it takes two to have at least reception/understanding. I've tried this a boat load of times without results. new approach needed"
> 
> 
> 
> She has possibly figured out you are all talk and no action? So as long as you are a pleasant enough roommate and responsible father what is her incentive?



Basically that's it. But you still need to know whether she comprehends the implications of her choice or not..


----------



## MEM2020

*Next day delivery service of bait, as requested*

Boston,
Clearly you are a bright guy. So I know you will appreciate that the approach below is totally different than threatening to divorce over sex. It is a simple (difficult emotionally) case of boundary enforcement. 

You are both sitting and relaxed, in a quiet place with no distractions / interruptions. Late enough that outside telephone calls are unlikely. Or turn both your phones off and kill the ringer on the landline. This is the script:
- I'm committed to you, our child and marriage
- For the overall health of the marriage, and for my physical health I have decided to remove the one major stress point in our marriage - which is me pressuring you to do something you really don't like doing. 
- Going forward I will take responsibility for having my sexual needs met without jeopardizing the stability of our marriage. 
- Once or twice a week I will go have a purely physical 'experience' with someone, probably at the end of a nice long full body massage. 

Then pause for a moment and ask: do you have any questions

You will likely get an intensely hostile reaction. And that is ok, in fact that is pretty healthy. You also might trigger an instant nuclear launch sequence which will be: I want a divorce

But you should only initiate this conversation if you believe that:
- It is outrageously selfish for a partner to pretend to like sex until they have extracted a lifetime vow of monogamy from you
- And unacceptable for someone to essentially demand your celibacy - which is what her threatening you with divorce would be.

There are many 'hollow marriages', where the tangible remains, and the intangibles are mostly gone. Yours is headed that way. 












BostonBruins32 said:


> Honest talk would be great. But this has been tried a few times and even with a counselor. I've been very honest about the hurt the rejection feels and how the lack of intimacy in the bedroom hurts an emotional connection I have/want to have with her.
> 
> So a talk is awesome, but it takes two to have a conversation. Or it takes two to have at least reception/understanding. I've tried this a boat load of times without results. new approach needed.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

My personal belief is that the majority of men and women out there who can be described as having low drives are not this way due to chemical make up. I think in most cases, the LD comes about from external factors: 


falling into the "parent trap"
experiencing high levels of stress over an extended period of time (demanding job, special needs kid(s), etc)
simply losing the emotional connection to your spouse by getting involved in various activities (addictions, GNO/BNO's, prioritizing friends, volunteer work, etc)

For many people who think that their spouse played the bait and switch game, I don't think it's always that simple. I think life gets "in the way" because IMHO many people who get married have this naive view that once the wedding is over that you don't have to do any more work because the wedding completed the deal. In reality, people fail to realize that the marriage is just the start of a new journey, and that to keep it going strong you need to continue to prioritize each other. Marriage is not the destination. It doesn't mean that all the work you put in courting your spouse is done and now you two will keep the love and intimacy simply because you have a piece of paper saying that is what you two are supposed to do. LOL! It simply doesn't work that way! Yet to many people, that is how they think.

In most of these sexless marriages that we read about on SIM, the sexless relationship is the effect from an unknown cause(s). Some are definitely hormone based, but the majority of them are not. Some event, resentment or lack of attention has resulted in the sexual problems faced by many. JMHO.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> - Going forward I will take responsibility for having my sexual needs met without jeopardizing the stability of our marriage.
> - Once or twice a week I will go have a purely physical 'experience' with someone, probably at the end of a nice long full body massage.



Practically thinking...

Erotic massages tend to consume some decent amount of money, say 150$/session twice a week would be $300 times four is $1200. Say $1000 if you get the volume discount like Mike's Car Wash.

The wife has every right in the world to demand her own 1000$/month and I don't see an argument against it.

Most of us don't have an extra $2k a month. Even $1K. For a month or two sure, to prove a point, but by then it's not going to get any better. Don't make the Clinton mistake of misunderestimating a woman scorned... Not to mention the possibility that wife plays along and you get awesome massages and nothing else...

One could try a FWB but that puts the whole marriage at risk as wife's cousin found out the hard way.

At 30, and if OP is the primary wage earner, spend the money on a good lawyer and kick her to the curb. At 55 and with spouses making similar earnings the picture is quite different.


----------



## Anon Pink

Plan 9 from OS said:


> My personal belief is that the majority of men and women out there who can be described as having low drives are not this way due to chemical make up. I think in most cases, the LD comes about from external factors:
> 
> 
> falling into the "parent trap"
> experiencing high levels of stress over an extended period of time (demanding job, special needs kid(s), etc)
> simply losing the emotional connection to your spouse by getting involved in various activities (addictions, GNO/BNO's, prioritizing friends, volunteer work, etc)
> 
> For many people who think that their spouse played the bait and switch game, I don't think it's always that simple. I think life gets "in the way" because IMHO many people who get married have this naive view that once the wedding is over that you don't have to do any more work because the wedding completed the deal. In reality, people fail to realize that the marriage is just the start of a new journey, and that to keep it going strong you need to continue to prioritize each other. Marriage is not the destination. It doesn't mean that all the work you put in courting your spouse is done and now you two will keep the love and intimacy simply because you have a piece of paper saying that is what you two are supposed to do. LOL! It simply doesn't work that way! Yet to many people, that is how they think.
> 
> In most of these sexless marriages that we read about on SIM, the sexless relationship is the effect from an unknown cause(s). Some are definitely hormone based, but the majority of them are not. Some event, resentment or lack of attention has resulted in the sexual problems faced by many. JMHO.


Completely agree! 

But what we also see is that the spouse who is here is typically open to doing what needs to be done to get back on track while the LD spouse is resistant to working on things.

Having read Boston's other deleted threads, I can vouch he has been there and done that.


----------



## john117

If he's been there and done that then chances are he can make a calling as to whether he's dealing with a well meaning but ignorant partner or with someone a wee bit more sinister.

True, TAM success stories remind me of the success rates of some major hospitals - pretty bad generally - because by the time we show up here other venues have been tried and failed. 

No reason for "unknown causes" btw. Tonight's reason is the supercomputer vigil where Dr. Mrs. LD will babysit her pride and joy monitoring her analysis program run while watching Netflix. After all, there's a needle in a planet's worth of haystacks and Team LD has to find it.

Now, I cannot compete with a supercomputer, regardless of muscle, physique, or brute speed...


----------



## MEM2020

John,
A couple things.

First, I acknowledge that I am in an unusual situation. When I actually executed the aforementioned strategy, I/we were in a position for me to do so every other day open ended without any noticeable financial impact. 

The thing is, you are missing the forest for the trees. Because this isn't about the exact affordable frequency. This is about the concept of outsourcing your sexual needs. Because that 'concept' breaks the monopolistic mindset of a selfish spouse. 

The refusing/selfish spouse is not going to sit there and compute the affordable frequency of their husband doing this. They are going to react entirely to the idea. 

As for the refuser trying to play the 'well that means I get an equivalent allowance' card, the answer to that statement couldn't be simpler. You just lean back and laugh, long and hard. And after catching your breath you just say: No. This is a medical solution to preserve my sanity and physical health. You don't get matching funds for a situation that is not harming you. But nice try.

End of discussion. 





john117 said:


> Practically thinking...
> 
> Erotic massages tend to consume some decent amount of money, say 150$/session twice a week would be $300 times four is $1200. Say $1000 if you get the volume discount like Mike's Car Wash.
> 
> The wife has every right in the world to demand her own 1000$/month and I don't see an argument against it.
> 
> Most of us don't have an extra $2k a month. Even $1K. For a month or two sure, to prove a point, but by then it's not going to get any better. Don't make the Clinton mistake of misunderestimating a woman scorned... Not to mention the possibility that wife plays along and you get awesome massages and nothing else...
> 
> One could try a FWB but that puts the whole marriage at risk as wife's cousin found out the hard way.
> 
> At 30, and if OP is the primary wage earner, spend the money on a good lawyer and kick her to the curb. At 55 and with spouses making similar earnings the picture is quite different.


----------



## MEM2020

*Revision to earlier suggestion*

Boston,
A few posts back I made a mistake. I suggested a circle with a slash on the calendar for each sexless day. 

Don't do that. Instead put a question mark - ?

That's it, just a simple: ?

The ? represents a simple unanswered query which is this: Why did your desire/willingness to have frequent sex disappear when we got married? 

But equally I have a similar question for you, why were you willing to have children with a woman who had just deprioritized you so completely?




QUOTE=john117;6657505]If he's been there and done that then chances are he can make a calling as to whether he's dealing with a well meaning but ignorant partner or with someone a wee bit more sinister.

True, TAM success stories remind me of the success rates of some major hospitals - pretty bad generally - because by the time we show up here other venues have been tried and failed. 

No reason for "unknown causes" btw. Tonight's reason is the supercomputer vigil where Dr. Mrs. LD will babysit her pride and joy monitoring her analysis program run while watching Netflix. After all, there's a needle in a planet's worth of haystacks and Team LD has to find it.

Now, I cannot compete with a supercomputer, regardless of muscle, physique, or brute speed...[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

Tracking in this way does not help. Trust me. They know. The question is whether they care.


----------



## MEM2020

*Questions*

Boston,
Is your wife on any meds?
Does she use the pill for BC?
Are you thin? 
Is she overweight? 

On a 10 scale how would you rate each of you in terms of physical attractiveness? 

How many partners did each of you have prior to marriage? 

This last one is big. How often do you make her laugh? And how often does she get you laughing? 



QUOTE=john117;6658193]Tracking in this way does not help. Trust me. They know. The question is whether they care.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

*One last question before sleep takes me*

Boston,
There are different ways to approach that 'talk' with your wife. 

And while it's difficult to know what might work best with any particular woman, I am wondering if you have tried an approach that kind of goes like this.

I accept that it is rare for you to actually feel spontaneous desire for me. I want us to try a few different ways for me to gradually get you turned on in a way that feels good to you. I need you to trust me when I tell you that:
- I will not 'rush' you
- Nor will I pressure you to have sex. If you get turned on and want to play, fine. And if not, that's ok also. 

If she flat out refuses, and she may then your fallback is to hand her a short bit well written article on female 'responsive desire', and tell her: If you actually care about me, you will read this and think about it. Because I expect you to start making an effort to work with me on this. 

----------
MOST nights, Mrs MEM does not start out in the mood. And that's our 'normal' so I am very practiced with regard to her 'ignition' sequence. For example:

*Pacing*
I don't rush her. For example, I rarely French kiss her first. She gets soft lip kisses and a light bite on her lower lip. And a lot of touchng/light fingernail work:
- back of her neck
- all around her thighs
- lower back where it curves into her beautiful ass

I don't touch her breasts at all until she is French kissing me, and clearly hot. And her nipples and V are untouched til she is panting. 

If we have just wrestled, that might be sub five minutes. If not, maybe 20 minutes. Which is why I don't really like to start playing unless we have at least an hour. 

Because for some women, being touched too early in certain places - feels bad. 
*Dominance Level*
Some nights she likes gentle. Most nights, once she is turned on, she likes me to totally take control. Generally a bit rough is hotter for her. 

-----
When we cross signals, and while rare that does happen, she will either say 'easy tiger' or cue me to amp it up. Fine by me. 




Anon Pink said:


> Completely agree!
> 
> But what we also see is that the spouse who is here is typically open to doing what needs to be done to get back on track while the LD spouse is resistant to working on things.
> 
> Having read Boston's other deleted threads, I can vouch he has been there and done that.


----------



## john117

If the desire - or interest - is not there for the proverbial 29 out of 30 nights none of that can be tried. You can't get someone to have sex with you if actively they're thinking the best ways to avoid it. Try any of the above with an advanced stage LD and at best you'll get a cold stare and rejection, on average you'll be called a pervert, and at worse you'll end up in a fight. 

Responsive desire is one thing, numerical desire is quite another. In numerical desire the LD has a numerical level of frequency in mind and the won't stray from it regardless of who is doing it, how good they look, or whether they drink dopamine straight out of the bottle with vodka (dopamini?)

Back when I was in grad school the professor have a hilarious lecture example about how to give a pill to a dog or a cat. The dog instructions were 2 steps - wrap pill in bacon and give to dog. The cat instructions were 20+ steps. 

http://www.nanceestar.com/CatPill.html

If you don't know whether you're dealing with a dog or a cat chances are you won't pick the right instructions. When you're 30 year olds and run into this chances are it's not because the LD has the proverbial other things in mind. At 30-35 both me and my wife had one child, work, grad school, research, and still found time to have sex. Sure we had to time it right between "advanced topics in numerical analysis" and Barney the Dinosaur...


----------



## BostonBruins32

*Re: Revision to earlier suggestion*



MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> A few posts back I made a mistake. I suggested a circle with a slash on the calendar for each sexless day.
> 
> Don't do that. Instead put a question mark - ?
> 
> That's it, just a simple: ?
> 
> The ? represents a simple unanswered query which is this: Why did your desire/willingness to have frequent sex disappear when we got married?
> 
> But equally I have a similar question for you, why were you willing to have children with a woman who had just deprioritized you so completely?
> 
> *The baby was made literally 2-3 months after the marriage.. given what I know now, theres no way on Gods green earth I would have been on board having a child with her until these thinsg were resolved or if at all. Again, obligatory its not my daughters fault, as she is undoubtably one of the best parts of my life. Just making the overall point. The F'd up part is that my wife still thinks long term about kids. She keeps baby clothes/toys, and on strange occassions looks up baby names etc. I remain quiet, as I told her about a year ago, that I have minimal interest in more children. *


----------



## BostonBruins32

*Re: Questions*



mem11363 said:


> boston,
> is your wife on any meds? *no meds*
> does she use the pill for bc? *used to use the pill, but it made her very moody or not feel good, so no pill.*
> are you thin? *i'm 5'10-5'11 and about 170..so think soccer/basketball player height weight ratio.*
> is she overweight? *im not sure what overweight is, so i'll tread lightly. She is probably 10lbs higher than she wants to be? And about 15-20 lbs higher than she was when i met her 10 yrs ago. Not really that bad for having a child a few years ago, but also not in as good of shape as i am. Yep, bring on the angry women, but i'm just answering the question.*
> 
> on a 10 scale how would you rate each of you in terms of physical attractiveness? *ahh yes teh mmsl sex rank. Both 7s? Both pretty close i think, as in not much of a discrepancy. *
> 
> how many partners did each of you have prior to marriage? *i have no idea for her, i'm guessing 2-3? I've had a few more than that, maybe 10-12? We hooked up pretty young.*
> 
> this last one is big. How often do you make her laugh? And how often does she get you laughing? *one of her favorite things about me, as stated 10 years ago, on wedding day, and all the time is my sense of humor. I can get her laughing very easy. She makes me laugh probably more than most women do, (sorry i dont find most women comical)*
> 
> 
> 
> quote=john117;6658193]tracking in this way does not help. Trust me. They know. The question is whether they care.


[/quote]


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> If the desire - or interest - is not there for the proverbial 29 out of 30 nights none of that can be tried. You can't get someone to have sex with you if actively they're thinking the best ways to avoid it. Try any of the above with an advanced stage LD and at best you'll get a cold stare and rejection, on average you'll be called a pervert, and at worse you'll end up in a fight.
> 
> Responsive desire is one thing, numerical desire is quite another. In numerical desire the LD has a numerical level of frequency in mind and the won't stray from it regardless of who is doing it, how good they look, or whether they drink dopamine straight out of the bottle with vodka (dopamini?)
> 
> Back when I was in grad school the professor have a hilarious lecture example about how to give a pill to a dog or a cat. The dog instructions were 2 steps - wrap pill in bacon and give to dog. The cat instructions were 20+ steps.
> 
> How to Give A Cat A Pill, Humor
> 
> If you don't know whether you're dealing with a dog or a cat chances are you won't pick the right instructions. When you're 30 year olds and run into this chances are it's not because the LD has the proverbial other things in mind. At 30-35 both me and my wife had one child, work, grad school, research, and still found time to have sex. Sure we had to time it right between "advanced topics in numerical analysis" and Barney the Dinosaur...


i think sometimes this is why it hits me so hard. at 33 years old, why on earth am I not having sex with my 20something wife? at 55 I'd expect some sort of decline in frequency or desire. But at this stage what gives?

So it goes back to a few things asi stated earlier:
1. shes not in love with me
2. shes not attracted to me and or lost respect for me
3. she is biologically not interested in sex, with me or anyone.

At this point I wouldnt rule anything out. If shes not in love with me, i wonder why she says I love you first 90% of the time and why she talks about future plans together. If shes not attracted to me, it has to be for respect reasons not physical reasons. Again, I'm literally 5lbs heavier than i was 10+ years ago. Still have abs, still have a chest, still have arms. I dont dress like a bum etc. So that leads me to respect loss. She's complacent? bored? thinks I'm a push over? has her needs met without having to put forward much effort? all likely causes. The final option is shes biologically not into sex. Very real option, but i have no proof and I'm not quite ready to ask her to be tested for her levels. 

John, to be honest, I think some of MEMs techniques would draw strange responses from my wife. This is why I'm carefully disecting the approach and applying where it makes sense. Just like MMSL, which I've been reading this weekend. He goes heavy into sex rank and status so to speak. I havent figured out how to take this. I feel like my sex rank with her should be high, by his standards (social status, salary, looks, physical fitness etc), but who knows. More to come i suppose.


----------



## john117

I have often criticized the DIY approaches for many reasons. The fundamental one is that their applicability is a lot narrower than one would think.

I feel you need to look harder for reasons tho. There's also resentments, unmet expectations, cultural issues, past issues, and the like. Not just the proverbial not in love, sex rank, etc.

In my case I know exactly the reasons (plural) and none of them is fixable to a significant extent: BPD, culture, resentments galore, perception that I'm a slacker, etc. Read my thread. 

I would love to kick around the theory of numerical desire a bit more. That is, that the LD has a fixed amount of desire per time unit and without strong external factors that amount ain't going anywhere fast. This happens for many reasons primarily external factors ie culture but also internal reasons ie self esteem and worth. 

At the end of the day open up Excel and write down the positives and negatives, then the probability of fixing the negatives. If it's not going to get better cut your losses early. In my case there's a decade of tuition at stake so it's a mo brainer, unless I can hook up on Craigslist with a wealthy childless widow and adopt a Nigerian last name :rofl: 

Ten years of psychology education has taught me that people rarely think things thru. They either miss the forest for the trees, the trees for the forest, and so on. They do not analyze the problem down to its fundamental components. They often pick the first solution that sounds good and run with it. So, I suggest a bit of intelligence collection. What does your wife like? What was she 10-15 years ago? Can she regulate emotions? Is she a problem solver? Does she have positive role models of intimacy? What did her parents marriage look like? Any trusted friends she uses to discuss girl things? A lot more questions, and likely the domain of an expert like a therapist.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Anon Pink said:


> Completely agree!
> 
> But what we also see is that the spouse who is here is typically open to doing what needs to be done to get back on track while the LD spouse is resistant to working on things.
> 
> Having read Boston's other deleted threads, I can vouch he has been there and done that.


My last post was rather general in nature and I don't believe I've read Boston's threads prior to him deleting them to get the full context of his situation. My primary point was that whenever a person comes onto SIM and is discussing his/her LD partner, it's rarely due to a physiological issue like hormones, depression or a mental disorder. More often than not it's some type of resentment or detachment that creeps into the marriage when people let life get the best of them. 

My only thought would be that even though he may have "been there, done that", he may not have uncovered the true root cause yet. And yes, even though it's just him at the moment that is recognizing something that needs to be fixed, he'll still need to find that right approach to persuade her that there ARE issues that need to be fixed and that the current intimacy level in their marriage is unacceptable. Maybe he failed to convince her of the urgency with which they need to address the situation. Nothing will change if Boston can't convince her that there is a time limit for his patience before something changes.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Plan 9 from OS said:


> My last post was rather general in nature and I don't believe I've read Boston's threads prior to him deleting them to get the full context of his situation. My primary point was that whenever a person comes onto SIM and is discussing his/her LD partner, it's rarely due to a physiological issue like hormones, depression or a mental disorder. More often than not it's some type of resentment or detachment that creeps into the marriage when people let life get the best of them.
> 
> My only thought would be that even though he may have "been there, done that", he may not have uncovered the true root cause yet. And yes, even though it's just him at the moment that is recognizing something that needs to be fixed, he'll still need to find that right approach to persuade her that there ARE issues that need to be fixed and that the current intimacy level in their marriage is unacceptable. Maybe he failed to convince her of the urgency with which they need to address the situation. Nothing will change if Boston can't convince her that there is a time limit for his patience before something changes.


nail on the head. ive worked out a lot of kinks that she said made her resentful at times or frustrated at times with the mariage. I've made drastic changes that have made her feel so much better about the marriage <--her words not mine. The counselor we are/were(see next paragraph) seeing echoed the same comments. She told me she had never seen someone listen and take action so well. XYZ behavior is causing this and husband needs to correct/work on/fix these. Done and done, without whiining about very very harsh counseling sessions picking on my flaws. 

next paragraph. My wife took some heat a few weeks ago in a session. It was regarding the LD vs HD and importance of sex to me issue. counselor mentioned (forgive i forgot exact quotes) that my wife is essentially violating some terms of the marriage by disregarding (not that she has to have sex with me daily, but she does need to work on why she doesnt want to have sex with me) my need for intimacy as a connection between us. And additionally the counselor made it clear that my wife's refusal to say anything more than "i dont know its just not my thing" was very disrespectful and not a way to communicat honestly with someone you love. She used an example saying "what if your husband said he changing diapers and working are just not his thing, so hes done doing them", it wouldnt be acceptable to just ahve that as the reason. This was the first time my wife received any criticism in a session, and she shut down 15 mins into it. Now she no longer wants to go to counseling. Outside the bedroom, things are much better than prior to the sessions. She is more loving towards me, less angry snaps, more i love yous etc.. But the in the bedroom issues remain untouched, despite a clear message from me and the counselor how important it is. 

so here I am. Improve myself and either she will find me to be someone she wants intimacy with or nothing will change from her end. And this is where the timeline/boundary needs to be made and communicated. This isn't easy, as it is a little ultimatum-ish. But it needs to happen and I fully admit that its very hard. This is why I'm digging the MMSL book so far, improve yourself and your sex/love life will follow. And he clearly explains early on that your sex/love life will improve, just potentially not with your current wife. A good outlook, albeit a bit scary.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

It sounds like in counseling you were right on the verge of a breakthrough. I would suggest that you tell her that continuing counseling is a condition for staying married at this point. Or you could start changing back all of the things that you changed for her as a result of counseling.


----------



## Anon Pink

Has she ever linked her lack of desire or drive for sex with her CSA? 

The "I don't know" means she isn't ready to examine the effects of sex, only that she doesn't like it. It's not that she doesn't like sex, she doesn't like how sex makes her feel afterwards, or before. 

She must get back into therapy. She cannot hide. Tell her outright, continuing with therapy must happen. From what you said in your other threads it seems this therapist might be a tad to harsh for your wife to feel safe enough. 

I have never shared with my husband the details. I have never shared with my husband what I went through to fix myself. We were almost totally estranged at the time. Another member here insists I must tell him all that I did to learn to be okay with sex and then to be MORE than okay with sex. It was a long process but it began because I figured out that a happy marriage simply cannot be had with a lousy sex life and our lousy sex life was on me. For the most obvious reasons but also because I simply could not be so vulnerable and open to tell him that I wanted this or that. It's still hard for me but I do it because I want it.

Are good women allowed to want sex? How does your wife answer that question?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Has she ever linked her lack of desire or drive for sex with her CSA?
> 
> The "I don't know" means she isn't ready to examine the effects of sex, only that she doesn't like it. It's not that she doesn't like sex, she doesn't like how sex makes her feel afterwards, or before.
> 
> She must get back into therapy. She cannot hide. Tell her outright, continuing with therapy must happen. From what you said in your other threads it seems this therapist might be a tad to harsh for your wife to feel safe enough.
> 
> I have never shared with my husband the details. I have never shared with my husband what I went through to fix myself. We were almost totally estranged at the time. Another member here insists I must tell him all that I did to learn to be okay with sex and then to be MORE than okay with sex. It was a long process but it began because I figured out that a happy marriage simply cannot be had with a lousy sex life and our lousy sex life was on me. For the most obvious reasons but also because I simply could not be so vulnerable and open to tell him that I wanted this or that. It's still hard for me but I do it because I want it.
> 
> Are good women allowed to want sex? How does your wife answer that question?


I cant get a feel for the CSA past being an impact. All I can go on is experience in prior sex sessions with her. For example, she doesnt squirm funny or dissallow anything or avoid eye contact or avoid kissing etc. She prettty clearly orgasms when we have sex, so this is what has driven me to be confused about why it may have an impact. 

I sort of agree with the condition of her going back to counseling if we want to remain married. Its just very hard to stamp that down when things outside are going very well. Its almost like things were rough, then we went to counseling and i made some nice changes, now things are going good (outside bedroom). so we're at this spot where this is tangible improvement in the relationship. a part of me wonders if I press on the intimacy thing immediately, or if I ride this wave for a little and then move on to the intimacy issue in the not so distant future.

And yes I completely see this sort of as rug sweeping. Though at the same time there is something changing in a good way in our relationship. there is improvement in aspects outside teh bedroom. So surely there is some value in this. I guess I'm just saying I'm unsure about how to proceed, and trying to really think it through. Is it ok to say I dont know what to do sometmies? because thats the truth.


----------



## Anon Pink

Yes, here where is safe. Ideally, you should be able to say that to your wife.

I think it's possible she is trying very hard to meet your needs and is kind of psyching herself up for the rest. But it's also possible she is giving you X and sometimes Z but you have asked for XYZ. If she can make you content with X and sometimes Z then you will learn to be okay without the Y.

On the other hand, most women need to have a rock solid relationship before they can fully let go and embrace their sexual selves and your relationship had been pretty contentious...

So yeah, this was a big help I'm sure.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"The final option is shes biologically not into sex. Very real option, but i have no proof and I'm not quite ready to ask her to be tested for her levels."


Does she masturbate? If she can go two months simply not wanting an O than you can be pretty sure that she does not require sex.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Are you still going to MC? 

You absolutely should continue going even if your wife refuses. 

AND you ought to tell her that you view her continued participation in therapy as a sign that she is actually 'committed' to the marriage. 

And if she tries to get you to agree that she will only attend if you promise not to talk about the sex issue, you should just laugh and shake your head.







BostonBruins32 said:


> nail on the head. ive worked out a lot of kinks that she said made her resentful at times or frustrated at times with the mariage. I've made drastic changes that have made her feel so much better about the marriage <--her words not mine. The counselor we are/were(see next paragraph) seeing echoed the same comments. She told me she had never seen someone listen and take action so well. XYZ behavior is causing this and husband needs to correct/work on/fix these. Done and done, without whiining about very very harsh counseling sessions picking on my flaws.
> 
> next paragraph. My wife took some heat a few weeks ago in a session. It was regarding the LD vs HD and importance of sex to me issue. counselor mentioned (forgive i forgot exact quotes) that my wife is essentially violating some terms of the marriage by disregarding (not that she has to have sex with me daily, but she does need to work on why she doesnt want to have sex with me) my need for intimacy as a connection between us. And additionally the counselor made it clear that my wife's refusal to say anything more than "i dont know its just not my thing" was very disrespectful and not a way to communicat honestly with someone you love. She used an example saying "what if your husband said he changing diapers and working are just not his thing, so hes done doing them", it wouldnt be acceptable to just ahve that as the reason. This was the first time my wife received any criticism in a session, and she shut down 15 mins into it. Now she no longer wants to go to counseling. Outside the bedroom, things are much better than prior to the sessions. She is more loving towards me, less angry snaps, more i love yous etc.. But the in the bedroom issues remain untouched, despite a clear message from me and the counselor how important it is.
> 
> so here I am. Improve myself and either she will find me to be someone she wants intimacy with or nothing will change from her end. And this is where the timeline/boundary needs to be made and communicated. This isn't easy, as it is a little ultimatum-ish. But it needs to happen and I fully admit that its very hard. This is why I'm digging the MMSL book so far, improve yourself and your sex/love life will follow. And he clearly explains early on that your sex/love life will improve, just potentially not with your current wife. A good outlook, albeit a bit scary.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> "The final option is shes biologically not into sex. Very real option, but i have no proof and I'm not quite ready to ask her to be tested for her levels."
> 
> 
> Does she masturbate? If she can go two months simply not wanting an O than you can be pretty sure that she does not require sex.


I would bet the house she doesnt masturbate, but i dont have surveilance on her. I'm fairly certain she doesnt.

so i think your right, she may just not requier sex.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> Are you still going to MC?
> 
> You absolutely should continue going even if your wife refuses.
> 
> AND you ought to tell her that you view her continued participation in therapy as a sign that she is actually 'committed' to the marriage.
> 
> And if she tries to get you to agree that she will only attend if you promise not to talk about the sex issue, you should just laugh and shake your head.


I suppose i could should still go. My only concern is that we spent 2 months in counseling talking about my upbringing, why i do what i do, what i do wrong, how it impacts her etc.. tough conversations. leaving me feeling angry/hurt(very much internalized it, as my feelings about the sessions werent something i wanted to take out on her) for 1-2 days after each session. Then we finally get to something on her behavior and bam, thats all she wrote. I need her to speak up about whats really going on, to me or to the counselor. I told her this. Her response was "well i guess I'll go if you really want to, but i dont like how she attacked me. Atleast you got to work out some of your issues".. this is what really bothered me, because it confirmed my suspicion from early on: she thinks the marriage troubles we had are my fault. I needed the counseling, she didnt <-- very obviously her take.


----------



## john117

If there was CSA involved in her past that may be a reason to continue IC for that alone. It's not like it's something that can be ignored or dealt with DIY or with a few sessions.

I would press on the need for more IC and MC and develop some action items for her and for you with the therapist's help. Don't assume things will continue to improve because they seem to have improved a bit. 

Again, the cynic in me would say that instead of spending time trying to be unavailable, go on full court press and work with her to improve things. If she says that nothing needs improvement then that's your validation that she is super happy with how things are.

Things happen only when you get out of your comfort zone and are willing to pay the price for what you want to happen. If the price is too high that's also an option but at least you know where things stand.

If you let things regress now you'll have to come back then try to move forward again. Be super nice and "reward" her improvements but make it clear it's a journey.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
You get huge props for saying you aren't sure what to do. 

I have had situations with Mrs. MEM where I wasn't sure what to do, and in those situations I refrained from issuing any ultimatums. 

And I have had situations where I slowly reached clarity and then acted swiftly and calmly knowing with certainty that I was making the right moves and accepting that the outcome 'might' be that Mrs. MEM chose to hit the D button. 

That said:
1. At this point, you should not threaten to D your wife for any reason including her refusal to attend counseling. 
2. You absolutely should continue counseling without her.
3. If she refuses to attend, you ought to use a special phrase, and only that special phrase regarding her choice:

Hey, I know this is difficult stuff, I just didn't expect you to give up as soon as it got hard for you. Because you are better than that. 

------
I do think you should try a simple exercise. This exercise will help you begin to triangulate with regard to where her head is at. 

Hold off on the responsive desire thing for the moment. Set the bar even lower. Tell her you want a back massage. And then say 'just' a back massage, this isn't code for anything else. 

If she declines, or gives you a pathetically short massage, you will know you are dealing with two BIG issues:
- A lack of love and
- A very selfish spouse

You ask, and if you get the poor result that I expect:
- Don't complain, don't say anything
- The next day text her you will be home a bit later than usual, do not explain why
- Then go spend 70/80 and get a professional massage
- When you get home and she asks where you were just tell her. Stay low affect. Same tone of voice as - I stopped at the grocery store. I stopped on the way home to get a massage at - name of place. 

Don't justify, don't explain. And do not let her suck you into an argument or debate. 

If she asks if you plan this to be a regular thing, just shrug - as in 'I don't know'. 

If she asks how much it cost, just laugh and tag her with the 'twin sister' theme. It goes like this:
Gosh, you look exactly like, geesh you could be the twin sister of the woman who blew me off last night when I asked for a massage. 

---------
This strategy is intended to attempt to get her to see the hypocrisy in: refusing your husbands request and then implicitly challenging his use of money to get his need met. 
---------

Start preparing yourself though. Because she is going to attempt to cause YOU to feel anxiety/emotional disquiet when you begin quietly asserting yourself. Because she isn't used to it. 

So expect some type of manipulation or aggression and have some fun with it. What I do when that happens is: Keep that up and I will spank you




BostonBruins32 said:


> I cant get a feel for the CSA past being an impact. All I can go on is experience in prior sex sessions with her. For example, she doesnt squirm funny or dissallow anything or avoid eye contact or avoid kissing etc. She prettty clearly orgasms when we have sex, so this is what has driven me to be confused about why it may have an impact.
> 
> I sort of agree with the condition of her going back to counseling if we want to remain married. Its just very hard to stamp that down when things outside are going very well. Its almost like things were rough, then we went to counseling and i made some nice changes, now things are going good (outside bedroom). so we're at this spot where this is tangible improvement in the relationship. a part of me wonders if I press on the intimacy thing immediately, or if I ride this wave for a little and then move on to the intimacy issue in the not so distant future.
> 
> And yes I completely see this sort of as rug sweeping. Though at the same time there is something changing in a good way in our relationship. there is improvement in aspects outside teh bedroom. So surely there is some value in this. I guess I'm just saying I'm unsure about how to proceed, and trying to really think it through. Is it ok to say I dont know what to do sometmies? because thats the truth.


----------



## john117

The twin sister theory is hard to ignore if the wife makes her own money or if money is tight. Would OP be ok if she spent a few months worth of back rubs for a GNO in Las Vegas? 

Fast forward the massage parlor towards increasing conflict and threats to / plans to divorce and good luck convincing anyone to grant any kind of custody or co parenting agreement... If she does not work she could even do some serious financial damage if they're in an alimony state.

Continuing counseling is key. If she still refuses, that's your preview of what's to come.


----------



## 1812overture

B's --

You note that you are reading MMSL. That and NMMNG and 5 Languages of Love are the common books I see suggested. Any reason you selected MMSL?

I have trouble with the self-help book genre generally, and I'm a cheap bastard. Just curious if you considered other books/strategies/life style guides.


----------



## BostonBruins32

1812overture said:


> B's --
> 
> You note that you are reading MMSL. That and NMMNG and 5 Languages of Love are the common books I see suggested. Any reason you selected MMSL?
> 
> I have trouble with the self-help book genre generally, and I'm a cheap bastard. Just curious if you considered other books/strategies/life style guides.


I have read intimacy and desire by schnarch, passionate marriage by schnarch, and 5 languages of love. working on MMSL now. Im trying to improve myself, and see if in turn that sparks something for my wife. If it doesnt, at the very least I'll be a better man going forward.


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> You get huge props for saying you aren't sure what to do.
> 
> I have had situations with Mrs. MEM where I wasn't sure what to do, and in those situations I refrained from issuing any ultimatums.
> 
> And I have had situations where I slowly reached clarity and then acted swiftly and calmly knowing with certainty that I was making the right moves and accepting that the outcome 'might' be that Mrs. MEM chose to hit the D button.
> 
> That said:
> 1. At this point, you should not threaten to D your wife for any reason including her refusal to attend counseling.
> 2. You absolutely should continue counseling without her.
> 3. If she refuses to attend, you ought to use a special phrase, and only that special phrase regarding her choice:
> 
> Hey, I know this is difficult stuff, I just didn't expect you to give up as soon as it got hard for you. Because you are better than that.
> 
> ------
> I do think you should try a simple exercise. This exercise will help you begin to triangulate with regard to where her head is at.
> 
> Hold off on the responsive desire thing for the moment. Set the bar even lower. Tell her you want a back massage. And then say 'just' a back massage, this isn't code for anything else.
> 
> If she declines, or gives you a pathetically short massage, you will know you are dealing with two BIG issues:
> - A lack of love and
> - A very selfish spouse
> 
> You ask, and if you get the poor result that I expect:
> - Don't complain, don't say anything
> - The next day text her you will be home a bit later than usual, do not explain why
> - Then go spend 70/80 and get a professional massage
> - When you get home and she asks where you were just tell her. Stay low affect. Same tone of voice as - I stopped at the grocery store. I stopped on the way home to get a massage at - name of place.
> 
> Don't justify, don't explain. And do not let her suck you into an argument or debate.
> 
> If she asks if you plan this to be a regular thing, just shrug - as in 'I don't know'.
> 
> If she asks how much it cost, just laugh and tag her with the 'twin sister' theme. It goes like this:
> Gosh, you look exactly like, geesh you could be the twin sister of the woman who blew me off last night when I asked for a massage.
> 
> ---------
> This strategy is intended to attempt to get her to see the hypocrisy in: refusing your husbands request and then implicitly challenging his use of money to get his need met.
> ---------
> 
> Start preparing yourself though. Because she is going to attempt to cause YOU to feel anxiety/emotional disquiet when you begin quietly asserting yourself. Because she isn't used to it.
> 
> So expect some type of manipulation or aggression and have some fun with it. What I do when that happens is: Keep that up and I will spank you



That is brilliant!


----------



## john117

Hiring Helga the masseuse for $100/hr addresses a fraction of physical needs and zero emotional needs... So, how is the "my needs are not met in the marriage" spiel going to go when Mrs. OP asks the obvious question about Helga's contributions to OP's emotional needs? 

Maybe it's just me but if I were Mrs. OP I would be wondering exactly what my role in the relationship is... Warm body or emotional soulmate? Helga's involvement to me seems to point to "warm body"...


----------



## MEM2020

John,
First of all - you know that I like you, very much respect your intelligence and viewpoint and finally, wish we were neighbors. 

All that said, there would be times when (as next door neighbors) we would be in either your or my backyard grilling (and drinking) where you would say something that is simultaneously funny, obnoxious and inaccurate. And I would laugh uproariously, and say 'fvckin John' and throw an empty beer can just a fraction of an inch over your head. 

This is one of those times. There is no symmetry here. She knows she is being a selfish wench. Stop pretending they are on a level playng field or I am going to throw a virtual beer at you....




john117 said:


> The twin sister theory is hard to ignore if the wife makes her own money or if money is tight. Would OP be ok if she spent a few months worth of back rubs for a GNO in Las Vegas?
> 
> Fast forward the massage parlor towards increasing conflict and threats to / plans to divorce and good luck convincing anyone to grant any kind of custody or co parenting agreement... If she does not work she could even do some serious financial damage if they're in an alimony state.
> 
> Continuing counseling is key. If she still refuses, that's your preview of what's to come.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I know that you would defeat me in chess. But in backgammon (which is more similar to real life), I think you would find me to be a formidable opponent. 

You are too caught up in theory. I am more focused on results. And that is why mrs. MEM loves me, and concubines me. 






john117 said:


> Hiring Helga the masseuse for $100/hr addresses a fraction of physical needs and zero emotional needs... So, how is the "my needs are not met in the marriage" spiel going to go when Mrs. OP asks the obvious question about Helga's contributions to OP's emotional needs?
> 
> Maybe it's just me but if I were Mrs. OP I would be wondering exactly what my role in the relationship is... Warm body or emotional soulmate? Helga's involvement to me seems to point to "warm body"...


----------



## john117

Backgammon, besides Halo, is my favorite game :lol:. Let's just say I've been playing for 45 years. 

As a scientist I am always skeptical and consider all angles. If I was Mrs. OP I would really want to know how Mr. OP claims that sex is emotionally important to him and not merely a form of "release" and then turns right away to Helga for - surprise - "release"... At $100/hr to boot.

Try to familiarize yourself with Five Whys - the world is a very complicated place. Focusing on results is great if the results are forthcoming. In many cases they aren't, and nothing will work if the root causes are not understood.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> This is one of those times. There is no symmetry here. She knows she is being a selfish wench. Stop pretending they are on a level playng field or I am going to throw a virtual beer at you....



How is there no symmetry between spouses, especially if they both work and make similar money?

How would you feel if Mrs. MEM decides to get into an expensive hobby just to spite you? Not because she cares about collecting Faberge eggs or what not, but because you spend money on Helga. 

If she does not work, you could fiat it thru I suppose but that would build up more resentment than one could ever use in a lifetime.

Her being a selfish wench does not excuse him spending that kind of money, not any more than it excuses him of cheating. 

Of course it could be my moral code is all short circuited so I'd better put on a helmet just in case the beer flies by 

Both of us have expensive hobbies btw... I like photography and she likes art. Her Murano glass collection is quite impressive.


----------



## MissScarlett

Not to intrude on a personal conversation...

If your wife refused to clean the house, you would be justified in hiring a housekeeper to clean once per week.

(Lets pretend I didn't just infer that only women can clean house.)

A clean house is important to the family's well being. It's probably not the job that someone who cared about the home would do - but when faced with something that needs to be done one has two choices. Do it yourself or hire someone to do it.

A wife saying I refuse to clean house but also want to be paid the same as the housekeeper. Certainly that is not a valid argument.

(Incidently Miss Scarlett is fond of massage porn - but it's more difficult to find a man doing the massaging.)


----------



## MEM2020

*Miss Scarlett, Miss Scarlett*

Indeed tonight you are my favorite.

John,
Indeed your wife has stunning taste in husbands and in art. This past July we spent a few days in Venice. It was there I saw Murano glass for the first time. Like Stickley furniture, it simply reminds me that apex human performance - takes ones breath away. 

As for our match, I think it best to continue in the morning as I am currently impaired by more than half a bottle of a rather nice Malbec and the darkness that comes upon me after yet another physiologically stellar but incredibly one sided sexual encounter with Mrs. MEM.









MissScarlett said:


> Not to intrude on a personal conversation...
> 
> If your wife refused to clean the house, you would be justified in hiring a housekeeper to clean once per week.
> 
> (Lets pretend I didn't just infer that only women can clean house.)
> 
> A clean house is important to the family's well being. It's probably not the job that someone who cared about the home would do - but when faced with something that needs to be done one has two choices. Do it yourself or hire someone to do it.
> 
> A wife saying I refuse to clean house but also want to be paid the same as the housekeeper. Certainly that is not a valid argument.
> 
> (Incidently Miss Scarlett is fond of massage porn - but it's more difficult to find a man doing the massaging.)


----------



## BostonBruins32

Scarlett made a good housekeeping analogy . Rings very true. 

I'm also very much harbor ing the same slight skepticism as John. The thing that keeps me motivated on this MAP/180 type action is the thought that if these behavior and personal improvements don't pay off with my wife, they will pay off for me in the form of a future partner,. Pretty harsh , but healthy for motivation. Also as the sole breadwinner in this relationship, sav for her part time job, I don't have big time massage money avail. I think the better avenue is just to enhance my social life without her. So more going out with friends, golfing or to pub to watch game. Basically taking mems advice, just tayloring it to my situation. 

Also I meant to ask others on here about foundation rejections. Made that phrase up but it makes me laugh. Basically this is when my wife starts excuses before we're In the bedroom and before I even initiate. For example after a dinner date, on way home at like 1030, she would start dropping the "ugh my stomach feels funny" , "wow I'm so tired", " my body is so sore".. All random excuses that I always figured were her way of making it clear she doesn't want sec tonight. Am I reading into this or have others thought/experienced same thing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

Also.. Just dawned on me this am, been over 40 days since last intercourse. Her monthly visitor just ended Sunday. I wonder if she notices that I haven't initiated and even avoided sexual flirting for 40something days. I don't think she cares, but I wonder if she has noticed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy

So anyway, you say you two have talked about this a lot. 

When you tell her that you need sex to be a regular part of the marriage what does she say? -f%^k off, not going to happen?


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> So anyway, you say you two have talked about this a lot.
> 
> When you tell her that you need sex to be a regular part of the marriage what does she say? -f%^k off, not going to happen?


"im sorry. i could go a long time without sex. its just not something i need"

we had a talk in early december. I laid it out on the line to her about how important it was and how hurtful the rejection was. I also explained that its more than physical and rather something that helps me feel emotionally connected to her. I explained that the woman I love the most, find the most attractive, that sleeps inches from me wants no part of my physically. And it hurts. She seemed to hear me and seemed to sorta have a "sorry but im not sure what you want me to do" response or look. That night she came in bed later and initiated. Felt very much like pity sex (was a good session for both ..) and really her responses or even the sex that night didnt make me really think she would change. About 4 nights later we had a company party to attend and we dressed up, got a sitter for our daughter and went. That night I started to initiate and she said "not tonight, sorry". And that was the last time i initiated. so, well over a month. 

Again, the most disheartening thing about this is not that she has a LD or lack of interest in sex with me. Its more that she doesnt really understand, care to understand, or maybe care about the value of intimacy to me. If she has a medical issue, if she has resentment issues, if she has bad experience issues, if she is out of love, if she doesnt find me attractive, etc..thats all fine. Just tell me. This "i dont know, just not into it" crap doesnt work for me. 

So here we are...40something days after this talk and pity sex. Shes made sexual jokes over the last few weeks, that would typical be fun in spirit, but I dont respond or laugh anymore. I just sort of ignore it. She will walk around in underwear or change in the open in the room, and i just avoid being near her or looking. I've reset expectations and the last few weeks have focused my energy elsewhere. Playing basketball and soccer a few days a week with some guys. Getting up at 5am to work out before work. Spending oodles of time with my daughter on the weekends. Anything really to avoid the thought of rejection in the bedroom. 

Its also much easier to fall asleep when you do not expect any sexual activity and when you do not debate initiating. "maybe tonights the night she'll be in the mood, should i try?" nope. I stopped asking myself that. I'm beginning to reek of confidence anywhere around her and socially. Dont get me wrong, I'm still hurt inside. Still working on truly believing that its not me, its her. But as the saying goes, "never let them see you sweat". Plus I'm loving this book and I'm loving the 5lbs down (5'10 175lbs down to 170lbs) and muscle tone up. I was in good shape. I'm getting in better shape. This simple change works wonders for confidence.


----------



## Anon Pink

Does she know, have you flat out told her that you will not seek sex with her but will wait for her to seek sex with you? Does she know that?


----------



## usmarriedguy

Get a grip,
She rejects you once, after only four days since you just had sex, and so you just stop?

I mean really, what the hell do expect from her? 

"I told her sex was really important to me and she did not suddenly start liking it as much as I do so I quit."


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Does she know, have you flat out told her that you will not seek sex with her but will wait for her to seek sex with you? Does she know that?


Anon, 

No. And as I think about it, I'm probably accomplishing nothing. But I'm not trying to accomplish something for her by not initiating. I'm trying to get my mind off of the stress of wondering if she'll accept my efforts everytime i try. Its like applying for a vice president job that I have no business trying for. I can apply all day everyday, but after a while, you have to step back and think about that your doing. You end up hurting yourself daily by thinking you might get it, and then not getting it. 

So to resolve this, I stop initiating and immediately i feel some stress off my shoulders at home. Then I begin focusing energy elsewhere, resulting in better physical condition and being a better parent. Maybe being a better man.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> Get a grip,
> She rejects you once, after only four days since you just had sex, and so you just stop?
> 
> I mean really, what the hell do expect from her?
> 
> "I told her sex was really important to me and she did not suddenly start liking it as much as I do so I quit."


no bud. you have to remember the sensitivity of 3-4 years of rejections. take it too much to heart? Yep, i probably did. But its amazing what that long of rejection does to your psyche.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Anon,
> 
> No. And as I think about it, I'm probably accomplishing nothing. But I'm not trying to accomplish something for her by not initiating. I'm trying to get my mind off of the stress of wondering if she'll accept my efforts everytime i try. Its like applying for a vice president job that I have no business trying for. I can apply all day everyday, but after a while, you have to step back and think about that your doing. You end up hurting yourself daily by thinking you might get it, and then not getting it.
> 
> So to resolve this, I stop initiating and immediately i feel some stress off my shoulders at home. Then I begin focusing energy elsewhere, resulting in better physical condition and being a better parent. Maybe being a better man.


I don't doubt your sound reasoning. I just think you aren't helping your sitch by not initiating unless you have told her that you will not seek sex with her again due to the pain the constant rejections bring you.

My H did that to me, stopped initiating without letting me know why. It only made things worse. There were times I did want that closeness, but he had grown so distant from me, and at the time, I was totally inhibited about my sexuality that I could NOT initiate, could not bridge that gap. 

I just don't think this is going to help but only prolong both of your suffering and create a wider gap.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> I don't doubt your sound reasoning. I just think you aren't helping your sitch by not initiating unless you have told her that you will not seek sex with her again due to the pain the constant rejections bring you.
> 
> My H did that to me, stopped initiating without letting me know why. It only made things worse. There were times I did want that closeness, but he had grown so distant from me, and at the time, I was totally inhibited about my sexuality that I could NOT initiate, could not bridge that gap.
> 
> I just don't think this is going to help but only prolong both of your suffering and create a wider gap.


I actually very much agree. I just dont feel like initiating right now. As the counselor said, why would you want to have sex with someone who doesnt want to have sex with you. Its very clear shes not sexually interested or interested in me. So for now, trying and trying and trying does nothing to make me feel better. Also, to be honest, there is something about the feeling after sex that would be depressing. A day or two after having sex, I would start realizing or thinking that the 30 day drought is on again, which is depressing. So yes there is a glow of satisfaction right after, but then there is the discomfort that "hey this is all your getting for the next 30 days".

disclaimer: i realize some of my actions and words and thoughts make no sense or counter each other. But its all I got. my brain is still trying to piece together whats been going on and what to do.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Well I guess that is up to you. 
Personally my philosophy would be work with what you got or leave.


----------



## Married but Happy

You had a long talk, and sex is not something she needs. What DOES she really want and need? Find out, and provide it consistently for a few months without attempting to initiate sex, and if she then does not try to fill your needs when you finally initiate, totally stop providing for hers and see if she notices and says anything. That could open the door for discussions where she will hear you and have some basis for relating to your perspective.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> I actually very much agree. I just dont feel like initiating right now. As the counselor said, why would you want to have sex with someone who doesnt want to have sex with you. Its very clear shes not sexually interested or interested in me. So for now, trying and trying and trying does nothing to make me feel better. Also, to be honest, there is something about the feeling after sex that would be depressing. A day or two after having sex, I would start realizing or thinking that the 30 day drought is on again, which is depressing. So yes there is a glow of satisfaction right after, but then there is the discomfort that "hey this is all your getting for the next 30 days".
> 
> disclaimer: i realize some of my actions and words and thoughts make no sense or counter each other. But its all I got. my brain is still trying to piece together whats been going on and what to do.



No no, I think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that you return to initiating. I am suggesting you tell her straight up.

"I cannot take the pain and hurt that comes when you reject me when I wish to have sex. I have stopped initiating and feel you should understand that I will not initiate sex with you again. But I am here if you want me. And I hope we can find a way... to you wanting me..."


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> Indeed your wife has stunning taste in husbands and in art. This past July we spent a few days in Venice. It was there I saw Murano glass for the first time. Like Stickley furniture, it simply reminds me that apex human performance - takes ones breath away.



We've been collecting art for decades, anything from Murano glass to Alaska soapstone... My way of manipulating Dr. Mrs. LD into expensive trips 

Let's hear it for good quality bourbon... Up until 3 am having fun then a long icy drive to work at 8 for a 9 am client presentation. Dr. Mrs. LD slept in - lucky.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> No no, I think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that you return to initiating. I am suggesting you tell her straight up.
> 
> "I cannot take the pain and hurt that comes when you reject me when I wish to have sex. I have stopped initiating and feel you should understand that I will not initiate sex with you again. But I am here if you want me. And I hope we can find a way... to you wanting me..."


Got it. Otherwise shes either cruising along wondering whats up or shes cruising a long thinking all is dandy.


----------



## treyvion

BostonBruins32 said:


> no bud. you have to remember the sensitivity of 3-4 years of rejections. take it too much to heart? Yep, i probably did. But its amazing what that long of rejection does to your psyche.


You'll get alot of if back instantaneously in a new situation if you can leave the old out of your mind and out of your life.

I would think it is safe to say, if you too 3-4 years of rejections and put downs, that it would take 3-4 years of affirmations and positive engagments to make up for the confidence and ego damage.

Your are going to feel great even after a couple of weeks in a new situation which puts you in a good light. It's just your confidence is not THICK enough to withstand bad times.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
She's noticed, and is noticing the rest of it as well. 

Real confidence, is the complete absence of fear. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Also.. Just dawned on me this am, been over 40 days since last intercourse. Her monthly visitor just ended Sunday. I wonder if she notices that I haven't initiated and even avoided sexual flirting for 40something days. I don't think she cares, but I wonder if she has noticed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> Also I meant to ask others on here about foundation rejections. Made that phrase up but it makes me laugh. Basically this is when my wife starts excuses before we're In the bedroom and before I even initiate. For example after a dinner date, on way home at like 1030, she would start dropping the "ugh my stomach feels funny" , "wow I'm so tired", " my body is so sore".. All random excuses that I always figured were her way of making it clear she doesn't want sec tonight. Am I reading into this or have others thought/experienced same thing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Been there, done that. Just another symptom that suggests she's in a lot deeper straits LD wise than one thinks. When you're batting .800 in Friday sinus attacks it's either you work at a daycare center or you're faking it


----------



## MEM2020

1. The post below makes perfect sense 
2. As for your particular strategy, it is smart to fit it to your approach to your circumstances





BostonBruins32 said:


> I actually very much agree. I just dont feel like initiating right now. As the counselor said, why would you want to have sex with someone who doesnt want to have sex with you. Its very clear shes not sexually interested or interested in me. So for now, trying and trying and trying does nothing to make me feel better. Also, to be honest, there is something about the feeling after sex that would be depressing. A day or two after having sex, I would start realizing or thinking that the 30 day drought is on again, which is depressing. So yes there is a glow of satisfaction right after, but then there is the discomfort that "hey this is all your getting for the next 30 days".
> 
> disclaimer: i realize some of my actions and words and thoughts make no sense or counter each other. But its all I got. my brain is still trying to piece together whats been going on and what to do.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Been there, done that. Just another symptom that suggests she's in a lot deeper straits LD wise than one thinks. When you're batting .800 in Friday sinus attacks it's either you work at a daycare center or you're faking it


So you agree that it is a pre-rejection to the initiation that hasnt even happened yet? 

its crazy, i said a while back, maybe months or a year "you're sick a lot huh" and the got real angry/defensive. She knew i smelled BS and got mad that i called her on it. Oh well. She can be sick/headachy/tired/sore/bloated nightly and ill offer light empathy and move on.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Anon Pink said:


> No no, I think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that you return to initiating. I am suggesting you tell her straight up.
> 
> "I cannot take the pain and hurt that comes when you reject me when I wish to have sex. I have stopped initiating and feel you should understand that I will not initiate sex with you again. But I am here if you want me. And I hope we can find a way... to you wanting me..."




Personally I think that your expectations are unrealistic and are only headed for trouble. 

Unless your plan is just to make both of yourselves miserable until you each finally build up so much resentment that you both give up and decide to divorce. 

If that is the plan I would say you could spare yourself a lot of trouble. 

Really what is the object to all this?
You said that when you talked before she initiated and gave you some pity sex. What kind of sex do you think you will get if you tell her you are going to hire a prostitute? What kind of sex do you think you will get if you treat her coldly and mope around the house for the next six months putting question marks on your calendar? 

The only advantage I see to the plan so far is that it will give her more time to think about it but it seems like she has already been aware of the problem for a while. Or was December the first she had heard about it?

So she only wants sex once a month but this will suddenly make her not only see how important sex is to you but actually want to do it much more and never turn you down and initiate half the time?

And that is the plan?

And Anon before you tell me how that worked for you I just want to point out that you are the one who wanted to change because you where not happy.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> Personally I think that your expectations are unrealistic and are only headed for trouble.
> 
> Unless your plan is just to make both of yourselves miserable until you each finally build up so much resentment that you both give up and decide to divorce.
> 
> If that is the plan I would say you could spare yourself a lot of trouble.
> 
> Really what is the object to all this?
> You said that when you talked before she initiated and gave you some pity sex. What kind of sex do you think you will get if you tell her you are going to hire a prostitute? What kind of sex do you think you will get if you treat her coldly and mope around the house for the next six months putting question marks on your calendar?
> 
> The only advantage I see to the plan so far is that it will give her more time to think about it but it seems like she has already been aware of the problem for a while. Or was December the first she had heard about it?
> 
> So she only wants sex once a month but this will suddenly make her not only see how important sex is to you but actually want to do it much more and never turn you down and initiate half the time?
> 
> And that is the plan?
> 
> And Anon before you tell me how that worked for you I just want to point out that you are the one who wanted to change because you where not happy.


Remember, I'm taking MEMs plan with a grain of salt. I'm not getting massages and hiring prostitutes. I'm not circling calendars. What I am doing is more a long the lines of the MMSL MAP. No moping, but also no begging. I may strike back and initiate at some point. just not right now. For now, I have to channel my energy on myself, confidence, fitness, parenting, and work. Rather than channeling it on sucking up to her in hopes she decides she does want sex with me. 

I'm resetting expectations, even if only temporary. As I stated earlier, I honestly don't know what my plan is 4 months from now. There is a timeline here that I'm thinking through. I dont need her to change so much as I need her to recognize an issue, communicate, and consider a resolution. Should she continue to refuse this, then I have no choice but to consider going down a different avenue, that may not include her.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> So you agree that it is a pre-rejection to the initiation that hasnt even happened yet?
> 
> 
> 
> its crazy, i said a while back, maybe months or a year "you're sick a lot huh" and the got real angry/defensive. She knew i smelled BS and got mad that i called her on it. Oh well. She can be sick/headachy/tired/sore/bloated nightly and ill offer light empathy and move on.



Absolutely. I am extremely observant so it's not like this goes unnoticed, 

A former coworker amassed a stunning number of sick days all when our boss was out of the office. Likewise on Fridays or Mondays. Despite his education, skills, and contributions he was cut. People notice.


----------



## Anon Pink

usmarriedguy said:


> Personally I think that your expectations are unrealistic and are only headed for trouble.
> 
> Unless your plan is just to make both of yourselves miserable until you each finally build up so much resentment that you both give up and decide to divorce.
> 
> If that is the plan I would say you could spare yourself a lot of trouble.
> 
> Really what is the object to all this?
> You said that when you talked before she initiated and gave you some pity sex. What kind of sex do you think you will get if you tell her you are going to hire a prostitute? What kind of sex do you think you will get if you treat her coldly and mope around the house for the next six months putting question marks on your calendar?
> 
> The only advantage I see to the plan so far is that it will give her more time to think about it but it seems like she has already been aware of the problem for a while. Or was December the first she had heard about it?
> 
> So she only wants sex once a month but this will suddenly make her not only see how important sex is to you but actually want to do it much more and never turn you down and initiate half the time?
> 
> And that is the plan?
> 
> And Anon before you tell me how that worked for you I just want to point out that you are the one who wanted to change because you where not happy.



I was unhappy because I couldn't take the distance, the gap, the disconnect and ended up in a major depression, which necessitated that I examine my role in making my own life hell for me. 

But you raise a valid point USMG, what is the goal? More times she is willing to spread her legs or a deeper emotional connection that includes fulfilling sex?

Keeping her life comfortable only prolongs the length of time she can fool herself into believing everything is fine.

This is an issue that can kill the marriage, it is therefor of primary importance. There is an elephant in the room and it is preparing to stink up with house with a giant turd! Let's acknowledge, open the doors and windows and maybe find a way to get rid of the elephant.


----------



## MEM2020

*Boston*

Boston,
I like how you have been thinking about this. You are trying to determine if this is a love, respect or 'other' issue. 

And you are absolutely right. Your W is engaging in a 'preemptive' rejection by way of all these minor 'ills'. 

Eventually you two will communicate about sex again. When that happens, you need to refrain from complaining about frequency. Instead you ought to focus entirely on the themes below, and you should work from a written script and email it to her afterwards to avoid her later claiming that she didn't hear/understand you. Or worse, rewriting history entirely with a he said/she said.

1. I don't want you to do anything you don't want to do, including have sexual experiences you don't enjoy. 
2. I have no idea what happened after the wedding, and until you open up as to why our sex life died right after we married, it is hard for me to trust you. 
3. And given the total absence of effort on your part to constructively engage on this topic in and out of therapy, I have a hard time believing that you care about me and how I feel.

------
You will get her standard response which is: I don't much like sex. 

Because that has worked like magic for her for two years. 

You need to anticipate and prepare for that. And ask her:
Have you always felt that way? (Because this goes to the question of a bait and switch)
------
You will likely get evasion in the form of:
- I don't know, I don't really think about it like you do. (And she might try to discourage further conversation by implying there is something wrong with you)
- I don't know, I'm not totally obsessed with sex 24 hours a day (expect the bait, don't take it)

Once you get this type of deception, you should say one more thing and then stop the discussion. 

I am ok with you not 'thinking about it' as much as me. You either have:
1. responsive desire, or 
2. No desire at all 

There is only one way to find out, and it requires your active participation. And if you aren't willing to make an effort, I wish you would just say so straight out. 


And this is where all the destabilization stuff comes in. Because there is ZERO chance she will work on this unless she is feeling very anxious about the marriage. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> So you agree that it is a pre-rejection to the initiation that hasnt even happened yet?
> 
> its crazy, i said a while back, maybe months or a year "you're sick a lot huh" and the got real angry/defensive. She knew i smelled BS and got mad that i called her on it. Oh well. She can be sick/headachy/tired/sore/bloated nightly and ill offer light empathy and move on.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
You are showing smarts and emotional strength by the complete cessation of initiating. You two should *not* have sex until:
1. She acknowledges that this is a big issue for your marriage and
2. The two of you agree to how you are going to try to resolve it together. 

If you have sex without those two steps, you are implicitly accepting the monthly status quo. And also reinforcing her belief that you will tolerate that open ended. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Remember, I'm taking MEMs plan with a grain of salt. I'm not getting massages and hiring prostitutes. I'm not circling calendars. What I am doing is more a long the lines of the MMSL MAP. No moping, but also no begging. I may strike back and initiate at some point. just not right now. For now, I have to channel my energy on myself, confidence, fitness, parenting, and work. Rather than channeling it on sucking up to her in hopes she decides she does want sex with me.
> 
> I'm resetting expectations, even if only temporary. As I stated earlier, I honestly don't know what my plan is 4 months from now. There is a timeline here that I'm thinking through. I dont need her to change so much as I need her to recognize an issue, communicate, and consider a resolution. Should she continue to refuse this, then I have no choice but to consider going down a different avenue, that may not include her.


----------



## john117

Destabilization may work to get her to put out, but how viable is it long term once she figures out what the limit is and pushes back!

Let's say that with barbarians at the gates she goes monthly to weekly and for a few weeks everything is good. Meanwhile she builds up resentment fast, reaches an apex and starts dropping again. Rinse, repeat.

Destabilization works only if it helps her see her error. If in her mind there's nothing wrong with monthly sex that won't fly. If she knows what she is doing you could join the Peace Corps and it won't matter.

Not initiating works for a while but eventually she will offer it and you will go for it. 

I would focus on returning to IC or MC and let the pro do the heavy lifting. Meanwhile detach as much as you can and prepare for irreversible actions.

Before I collect any more beer cans from the backyard let's just say everything Boston has said so far has been my experience as well.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

john117 said:


> Before I collect any more beer cans from the backyard let's just say everything Boston has said so far has been my experience as well.


In that case, let's remember that Boston is still young enough to have a good life and not waste it with his sorry excuse for a wife. Boston, it's really time to get out. Dump her.


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> In that case, let's remember that Boston is still young enough to have a good life and not waste it with his sorry excuse for a wife. Boston, it's really time to get out. Dump her.


If there were no children involved and or this was simply a girlfriend, not a wife. I would have said adios after the 3rd time we had the talk years ago. 

We have built a life together that outside the bedroom is "healthy-ish". Unfortunately there are some kinks in the armor that need to be worked out. Trust me, I do worry about blinking and waking up at 50 yrs old wondering why I waited so long to be happy in a relationship..


----------



## usmarriedguy

Anon Pink said:


> Keeping her life comfortable only prolongs the length of time she can fool herself into believing everything is fine.
> 
> This is an issue that can kill the marriage, it is therefor of primary importance. There is an elephant in the room and it is preparing to stink up with house with a giant turd! Let's acknowledge, open the doors and windows and maybe find a way to get rid of the elephant.


Yes well I agree that the issue needs to be on the table and worked on until it is not a problem. I just do not see how being passive aggressive is better than simply laying out some mutually agreed on plan. And then if she can't follow that plan then you can assume that she does not really care. 

What would you say is the minimum amount of sex you are willing to have?


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> Yes well I agree that the issue needs to be on the table and worked on until it is not a problem. I just do not see how being passive aggressive is better than simply laying out some mutually agreed on plan. And then if she can't follow that plan then you can assume that she does not really care.
> 
> What would you say is the minimum amount of sex you are willing to have?


Good question. 
I think the right frequency depends on her reason for rejecting it so much. Daily would be perfect but I'm obviously not asking for that. Something between daily and monthly is the desire . Weekly? 2 times a week? I just don't see that happening
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

*Not on the same page*

John,
The goal is NOT to coerce her into having a higher frequency of unwanted sexual experiences. Because that isn't what Boston (or any healthy man, myself included) wants. 

The goal is to:
Get her to make a sincere and good faith effort to develop a mutually enjoyable sexual relationship. 

It is entirely possible she never had much desire for Boston. And if that's the case she tricked him, and he will figure that out fairly quickly. Because she will fight like the devil to avoid trying to learn how to work with her 'responsive' desire, if she knows that she simply has no desire at all, full stop. 

It is equally possible that she and Boston never had good communication regarding what she likes/dislikes sexually in three areas:
- out of the bedroom
- initiation approaches
- actual foreplay and sex


QUOTE=john117;6685401]Destabilization may work to get her to put out, but how viable is it long term once she figures out what the limit is and pushes back!

Let's say that with barbarians at the gates she goes monthly to weekly and for a few weeks everything is good. Meanwhile she builds up resentment fast, reaches an apex and starts dropping again. Rinse, repeat.

Destabilization works only if it helps her see her error. If in her mind there's nothing wrong with monthly sex that won't fly. If she knows what she is doing you could join the Peace Corps and it won't matter.

Not initiating works for a while but eventually she will offer it and you will go for it. 

I would focus on returning to IC or MC and let the pro do the heavy lifting. Meanwhile detach as much as you can and prepare for irreversible actions.

Before I collect any more beer cans from the backyard let's just say everything Boston has said so far has been my experience as well.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

From her point of view it could well be construed as coercion... Which would not work.

We all know what the goal here is. She has to see the wrong in her actions and change her attitude, not fear the consequences and change.

If I were Mrs. OP my reaction to any destabilization would be to perceive it as coercion. Even if I were concerned about the consequences I'd be even more turned off with the attempt itself. 

The only solution I can see is to get her back to IC or MC - failing that, 180 followed by exit stage left on the double.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"The goal is NOT to coerce her into having a higher frequency of unwanted sexual experiences. Because that isn't what Boston (or any healthy man, myself included) wants. 

The goal is to:
Get her to make a sincere and good faith effort to develop a mutually enjoyable sexual relationship."


I think that is a given mem. But what you are talking about is coercesion. 

But anyway, What about try to start off with something realistic like every other week? Would she say she can't commit to that?

"It is equally possible that she and Boston never had good communication regarding what she likes/dislikes sexually in three areas:" 

Yes, I suppose so. 

If she will agree to work on this and have sex a minimum of ever two weeks then you can start working on the quality and then maybe rebuild the bond and later get it to once a week. Any more is probably a pipe dream unless her body changes.


----------



## Anon Pink

From my experience and GettingIt's experience, once a woman begins to understand just how important sex is in a healthy relationship and owns her side of the street, the frequency and quality will improve all by itself. 

Sex is power and some women will hold onto that power even as their marriage falls apart around them. Sex should not be about power and THIS realization is what Boston has to force. If it takes coercion, so be it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> From my experience and GettingIt's experience, once a woman begins to understand just how important sex is in a healthy relationship and owns her side of the street, the frequency and quality will improve all by itself.
> 
> Sex is power and some women will hold onto that power even as their marriage falls apart around them. Sex should not be about power and THIS realization is what Boston has to force. If it takes coercion, so be it.


Totally agree.

One of the interesting internal debates I keep having is that if the infrequency of sex creates an emotional divide for me, I wonder if it does for her. Another words, will continued infrequent sex be exactly what she wants and thus make her happy in this relationship?

Or will infrequent sex actually take a toll on her, and she'll seek it elsewhere because she will feel emotional divide? 

MMSL references women cheating a lot and references women seeking a lover elsewhere. He makes it sound common and even probable. Even if all her needs are met, but the relationship is sexless per HER choosing. Scary stuff.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> One of the interesting internal debates I keep having is that if the infrequency of sex creates an emotional divide for me, I wonder if it does for her. Another words, will continued infrequent sex be exactly what she wants and thus make her happy in this relationship?
> 
> Or will infrequent sex actually take a toll on her, and she'll seek it elsewhere because she will feel emotional divide?
> 
> MMSL references women cheating a lot and references women seeking a lover elsewhere. He makes it sound common and even probable. Even if all her needs are met, but the relationship is sexless per HER choosing. Scary stuff.


My take on it that the unhealthy dynamic she was responsible for, Lack of sex.
One partners needs ignored so he shuts down and grows emotionally distant.
Then she feels that distance because he stops initiating.
Eventually she feels ignored but since she can't give in to him she has to go elsewhere.

I know it's totally screwy but I have seen this dynamic live and in person with my late brother's failed marriage with his psycho-b!tch ex wife who is a total control freak.

I can go on and on about my brother's marriage. We used to laugh that he only got laid on Saturday night, after he cleaned the house.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> One of the interesting internal debates I keep having is that if the infrequency of sex creates an emotional divide for me, I wonder if it does for her. Another words, will continued infrequent sex be exactly what she wants and thus make her happy in this relationship?



Yes.

There. No analysis.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> Yes.
> 
> There. No analysis.


No.

It requires much more thought.

A spouse not getting their needs met will shut down and grow distant. The other spouse will feel the distance which will create a bigger gulf. Maybe she will put two and two together and own her part. Maybe she will have an affair. Healthy people in relationships will feel the distance and the gulf and will not like it!


----------



## john117

The operative word is healthy people.


----------



## treyvion

Anon Pink said:


> From my experience and GettingIt's experience, once a woman begins to understand just how important sex is in a healthy relationship and owns her side of the street, the frequency and quality will improve all by itself.
> 
> Sex is power and some women will hold onto that power even as their marriage falls apart around them. Sex should not be about power and THIS realization is what Boston has to force. If it takes coercion, so be it.



It makes me smile when an LD husband or wife, performs for their wife or husband, just because they realize how happy it makes them. And they love to do it. They don't have the need themself, but it does feel good to please their mate.

You know it's not all about how we feel.


----------



## Anon Pink

A stubborn streak or an immature ability to take responsibility for your actions doesn't mean a person is unhealthy, just difficult.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I was not implying coercion is not necessary -only that mems suggestions included it (in fact so did my suggestion to tell her that the lack of regular sex was putting the marriage at risk)

"...but the relationship is sexless per HER choosing."

As far as I can tell it is sexless per YOUR choosing. You do not like her frequency and possibly her lack of enthusiasm/initiating and so you choose to disengage. I suppose that could be a recipe for her to go find some other guy to validate her desirability if she needs that. Or maybe she is just not interested in sex enough to care.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> A stubborn streak or an immature ability to take responsibility for your actions doesn't mean a person is unhealthy, just difficult.


difficult or doesnt truly care/love thier spouse.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> A stubborn streak or an immature ability to take responsibility for your actions doesn't mean a person is unhealthy, just difficult.



We used to think people with personality disorders were difficult too...

Difficult -> little lasting impact to the marriage

Unhealthy -> significant lasting impact to, and risk of destroying the marriage


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> I was not implying coercion is not necessary -only that mems suggestions included it (in fact so did my suggestion to tell her that the lack of regular sex was putting the marriage at risk)
> 
> "...but the relationship is sexless per HER choosing."
> 
> As far as I can tell it is sexless per YOUR choosing. You do not like her frequency and possibly her lack of enthusiasm/initiating and so you choose to disengage. I suppose that could be a recipe for her to go find some other guy to validate her desirability if she needs that. Or maybe she is just not interested in sex enough to care.


I have recently chose to disengage. So yes, the consequences of my removal from the situation (for now anyways) are based on MY choosing. 

I also run the risk of not initiating so long, that things are awkward if I decide to try. 

Being married is a really bad idea. Way to much work and much less of a return on investment than a roomate. :scratchhead:


----------



## heyheyitschrish

So, I will start off saying that I did NOT read all of the comments, but I did read the first few pages. I do not get intimacy as often as I would like but it is because I have such a HD that it is...probably never going to be met my anyone. My husband is very very involved with me and we are intimate probably 3-4 times a week minimum. I had posted another thread asking for some advice for a friend....
1. For this LD person, sex is considered stressful and overwhelming and they feel like they are forced to do it or obligated because their spouse is an HD at least 5 days a week type person, how can sex be made loving and bonding and less stressful and how can the LD person start to enjoy the act again? 
2. What happens when the LD person will not compromise and realize how important often sex is to their spouse or even discuss things further than "I now associate it with pressure and stress"?


----------



## john117

You aren't going to get an LD to go to five times a week... Not without serious soul searching, lots of strange chemicals, or other drastic measures. There may be an enlightened LD here and there that gets it and shifts to that level but in general it's not typical.


----------



## Fozzy

john117 said:


> You aren't going to get an LD to go to five times a week... Not without serious soul searching, lots of strange chemicals, or other drastic measures. There may be an enlightened LD here and there that gets it and shifts to that level but in general it's not typical.


:iagree: An LD that will step up to the plate willingly that often is right up there with unicorns and honest politicians.


----------



## Anon Pink

Weeeeeeeee! I'm a unicorn!


View attachment 15297


----------



## john117

That alone ought to get you special consideration with Mr. Pink


----------



## EntirelyDifferent

Fozzy said:


> :iagree: An LD that will step up to the plate willingly that often is right up there with unicorns and honest politicians.



I must be a unicorn too... Yay!

But I will say that it's _only_ because my HD partner is willing to compromise with me and help me think outside the box to find good solutions for both of us. 
I would NEVER find a way to do it that often if he weren't meeting me in the middle somehow.


----------



## BostonBruins32

EntirelyDifferent said:


> I must be a unicorn too... Yay!
> 
> But I will say that it's _only_ because my HD partner is willing to compromise with me and help me think outside the box to find good solutions for both of us.
> I would NEVER find a way to do it that often if he weren't meeting me in the middle somehow.


totally confused here. I'm definately not asking for 5 times a week. or 3 times a week. I'm asking for less rejection and or a reason for rejection. 

not sure where this 5 times a week came from.


----------



## treyvion

BostonBruins32 said:


> totally confused here. I'm definately not asking for 5 times a week. or 3 times a week. I'm asking for less rejection and or a reason for rejection.
> 
> not sure where this 5 times a week came from.


Like I said, some of the LD prefer to work within a schedule. This way they know what to expect and can prepare for it.

If you know for a fact you are going to get it once or twice a week at this certain time and the LD has accounted for it, is able to prepare for it, it will feel better than taking 10-20 rejections a week.


----------



## GettingIt_2

EntirelyDifferent said:


> I must be a unicorn too... Yay!


I'm in the unicorn club, too. Should we order t-shirts?



EntirelyDifferent said:


> But I will say that it's _only_ because my HD partner is willing to compromise with me and help me think outside the box to find good solutions for both of us.
> I would NEVER find a way to do it that often if he weren't meeting me in the middle somehow.


I cannot stress how instrumental my husband has been in this area. He welcomed me back with understanding and love, and has worked with me diligently on repairing our intimacy and keeping it healthy every.single.day. I could never have done this alone. He, too, is quite the rare and wondrous beast.


----------



## Anon Pink

GettingIt, how long would you say it took for you to:

1. hear the unhappiness in your husband
2. start looking for answers
3. come to realize your involvement
4. finally start making changes

I know for me it was about a two year transformation for all of that to take place.


----------



## BostonBruins32

treyvion said:


> Like I said, some of the LD prefer to work within a schedule. This way they know what to expect and can prepare for it.
> 
> If you know for a fact you are going to get it once or twice a week at this certain time and the LD has accounted for it, is able to prepare for it, it will feel better than taking 10-20 rejections a week.


makes total sense. 

I'm in some strange transition phase right now that makes definately no sense. Actually, i wonder if its a grieving phase. The only reason I say that is because I'm just shifting all of my energy to myself and child. Myself = social circle, work, fitness, hobbies etc. I mention grieving because I get into lulls where I feel a bit depressed inside and dissapointed at how things got to where they are. I also go back and forth between whether or not she really wants to be here, since she wont open up to me or the counselor. So I say grieving, which probably isnt the most accurate term, but it feels like something is dying inside of me with this relationship. And sometimes I think I'm coming to grips with that.

Last night, I was just feeling not so hot inside, triggered by being home with her and a few bite backs from her on stupid stuff. I kept my composure and after putting our daughter to bed I told her I was running to the store, asking if she needs anything. She was surprised, not typical to run to store at 830 on a weds night for us. I told her I need some stuff there plus I just need to get out for a bit. She looked concerned and asked if I was ok. I said I'm good, just a lot on my mind. She said well if you need to talk, please dont hold anything in and talk to me. I told her ok. And continued getting my stuff together to run to the store. 

Felt much better just going to Lowes for a bit. Driving and thinking is relaxing to me. I'm really in no mood to rehash crap thats already been discussed and she already proclaimed that she was satisified from what she got out of counseling etc. 

See the thing is, she is nearly impossible to talk to. And we were breaking ground in the counseling, but by not going there anymore, she is essentially done explaining or working on her side of the issues. So again, back on my own island.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> I'm in the unicorn club, too. Should we order t-shirts?
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot stress how instrumental my husband has been in this area. He welcomed me back with understanding and love, and has worked with me diligently on repairing our intimacy and keeping it healthy every.single.day. I could never have done this alone. He, too, is quite the rare and wondrous beast.


Would love to hear the process, similar questions to what Pink had. This smells like hope for me. But the rejection/resentment demon is telling me not to expect change.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Would love to hear the process, similar questions to what Pink had. This smells like hope for me. But the rejection/resentment demon is telling me not to expect change.


I will definitely answer AnonPink's questions. The full gory story is at the link in my sig. 

Resentment kills love from both sides. The single thing that saved my marriage was that we *both* made the decision to leave it behind.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Would love to hear the process, similar questions to what Pink had. This smells like hope for me. But the rejection/resentment demon is telling me not to expect change.


Hint: Ignore the demon. Expect positive change!

_But be willing to put in the work to get there . . ._


----------



## usmarriedguy

While the stories of former LD women are inspirational I would point out that they where not truly LD they where temporarily LD because of other issues.

My wife would have never wanted sex more than once on any day, would have never complained about going a month without, could probably count the number of times she has masturbated on two hands, never owned toys, would not buy sexy clothes, does not read romance novels, and will probably never google how to make herself want sex more unless maybe I threaten to walk out. 

For the first year we did usually have sex 4 or 5 times a week. Not because she was actively trying to hook me but because the relationship was new and she felt flattered by the attention. 

That was not who she really was though she was not doing it because of an urge to have sex. More like an urge to be wanted and bond. 

So I guess the question would be: Is your wife really LD or is this some low point brought on by stress, kids, etc..

Because those are two very different conditions.


----------



## 1812overture

GettingIt's story is hopeful -- (and thanks for taking a chance a getting your husband's point of view months ago and posting it here.)

But it may be rare for biological/evolutionary/chemical reasons. Last year, the article ran in The New York Times magazine. It's about the search for a "female Viagra," and incorporates studies from primates, experimental drugs with women, etc.

For me, the most disappointing part is the women in the study who want to get their libido back. At least they understand something has gone, it is important to a relationship, and they miss how good it was. They are also rare, I fear. 

With no libido, you don't believe you are missing out on anything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/m...y-be-a-pill-for-that.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


----------



## treyvion

1812overture said:


> GettingIt's story is hopeful -- (and thanks for taking a chance a getting your husband's point of view months ago and posting it here.)
> 
> But it may be rare for biological/evolutionary/chemical reasons. Last year, the article ran in The New York Times magazine. It's about the search for a "female Viagra," and incorporates studies from primates, experimental drugs with women, etc.
> 
> For me, the most disappointing part is the women in the study who want to get their libido back. At least they understand something has gone, it is important to a relationship, and they miss how good it was. They are also rare, I fear.
> 
> With no libido, you don't believe you are missing out on anything.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/m...y-be-a-pill-for-that.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


So from your reading, your not finding that these ladies are missing something that it almost has been stolen from them and they want it back?

What is the effectiveness outside of this reading in your other studies of this product? Does it really turn a LD to a more normal drive?


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
That was good. 
- Kept your cool
- Left the house for a while
- Declined her invite to have a one sided discussion about being treated badly. And one sided because she is definitely NOT willing to explain WHY she is acting sexually cold/and verbally snippy

Keep doing what you are doing - focusing on youAnd your daughter. 

If you pay attention, I am guessing that you will notice a pattern that is WAY more destructive than you realize. 

Your wife is snippy with you and then shortly afterwards (without acknowledging or apologizing for her behavior), she asks you to do something for her. Typically some act of service. My guess is, being a 'nice guy', you do it. The subtext of that interaction is that her feelings matter, she matters and you are there to serve her. 

If that is happening, you really ought to be straight:

I don't like it when you are snippy, don't even acknowledge it, and then ask me to do something shortly afterwards. 

And then shut up and listen. But no matter what, when she is finished you tell her that you hope that means she understands why you aren't going to be doing what she asked. 

And don't ever lose sight of the benefit of controlling the 'pace' of conflict if you don't like her tone or approach with you. You smile and say: 'to be continued later, I'm going for a walk'. 






BostonBruins32 said:


> makes total sense.
> 
> I'm in some strange transition phase right now that makes definately no sense. Actually, i wonder if its a grieving phase. The only reason I say that is because I'm just shifting all of my energy to myself and child. Myself = social circle, work, fitness, hobbies etc. I mention grieving because I get into lulls where I feel a bit depressed inside and dissapointed at how things got to where they are. I also go back and forth between whether or not she really wants to be here, since she wont open up to me or the counselor. So I say grieving, which probably isnt the most accurate term, but it feels like something is dying inside of me with this relationship. And sometimes I think I'm coming to grips with that.
> 
> Last night, I was just feeling not so hot inside, triggered by being home with her and a few bite backs from her on stupid stuff. I kept my composure and after putting our daughter to bed I told her I was running to the store, asking if she needs anything. She was surprised, not typical to run to store at 830 on a weds night for us. I told her I need some stuff there plus I just need to get out for a bit. She looked concerned and asked if I was ok. I said I'm good, just a lot on my mind. She said well if you need to talk, please dont hold anything in and talk to me. I told her ok. And continued getting my stuff together to run to the store.
> 
> Felt much better just going to Lowes for a bit. Driving and thinking is relaxing to me. I'm really in no mood to rehash crap thats already been discussed and she already proclaimed that she was satisified from what she got out of counseling etc.
> 
> See the thing is, she is nearly impossible to talk to. And we were breaking ground in the counseling, but by not going there anymore, she is essentially done explaining or working on her side of the issues. So again, back on my own island.


----------



## john117

Her persistence upon returning from said walk is a good indicator of what is really going on... Also her reaction after you do it a few times in a row could be very telling.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Her persistence upon returning from said walk is a good indicator of what is really going on... Also her reaction after you do it a few times in a row could be very telling.


What kind of reaction would tell you what? 

Also, reading mmsl, really liking it but the aggressive actions are bold. Like the physical stuff feels so foreign to attempt . The saying no and decision stuff is easy. Also, the author seems to firmly believe most women will cheat, especially around ovulation time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FizzBomb

I'm not LD but ... I hope she realises her marriage and family life as she knows it is at stake .... quite possibly losing you for good. Sometimes you get to the point where you just give up and getting those positive loving feelings back is hard. Even harder with a spouse who as you say, won't open up to you or a counselor. You say she is "impossible to talk to".

If she won't talk then no progress will be made. You may get to the point where you realise you can't or don't want to row the boat yourself.


----------



## john117

If she acts shocked and hurt that you walked out on her like that it could be she is not fully aware of her actions' implications. If she's in "where were we" mode and continues to argue etc she's fully aware of what she's doing and the implications.


----------



## BostonBruins32

God I'm in such a funk. I'm so miserable at home. 


I can't physically be happy around her and the front has to be obvious. 

I wish I either didn't have a child with her or had bigger balls. Because I'd ask for time away. I feel sinkingly depressed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

So last night she came to bed after me, about 30 mins. Internally very frustrated as I said.

I small talked, she was tired. I initiated anyways. She accepted, seemed into it, orgasmed etc. session itself: she was moaning etc, she seemed to take her pants off somewhat quick during foreplay, also scampered to bathroom semi quick after to clean up. Typically she does this. Any thoughts on it? Is this just her thing or is she in a hurry to be done? Mind you her cleanup is needed but it was also sex with condom ( no birth control pill). 

Yep I'm overthinking it. But this is tam. I am allowed to here. I also wonder how long before I consider initiaying again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

We used condoms for several years, until I ended up Pregnant with number 3... What I loved about condoms is I DIDNT have to get out of bed to clean up and I COULD stay right where I was and fall asleep.

Female contribution to lubrication varies. Some women secret enough lubrication to seem like they wet the bed while others..do not secret enough for easy penetration and it's all normal.

What's not normal is why she would jump right up and not cuddle with you afterwards...basking in the glow...enjoying the cuddle time

What would happen if you held onto her and told her to stay in bed with you for a while? Would she be too anxious about the mess to relax? I wouldn't take it as a rejection. 

1. Her CSA has given her an aversion to sex fluids.
2. She doesn't want to cuddle with you.
3. She doesn't know that it's perfectly acceptable to not clean up at all if she doesn't feel like it.
4. She had to pee. It is important to pee after sex to keep UTI's away (for those prone to UTI)

Which plan are you following? I personally think you should initiate as often as you want sex.


----------



## Anon Pink

Hang in there Boston. It's miserable to feel so utterly cut off from your spouse. How is your interaction today, since you had sex last night? Any better?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Hang in there Boston. It's miserable to feel so utterly cut off from your spouse. How is your interaction today, since you had sex last night? Any better?


So she gets pretty wet down there after orgasm. She always pees after, but she seems to have to force herself to pee. She's done this for as long as I can remember, as in not just past few years behavior. Only tone she ever stayed in bed for a while was when trying to make baby years ago,

After we came back to bed, I kissed her and she said in love you and I said I love you too. Off to sleep. Haven't seen her this am as she gets up at 730 and I leave at 5am. Should I treat her nicer than normal today? Normal? Should i mention how good it was last night? What's my play?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy

Most women in my experience like to cuddle but I suppose everyone is different. Maybe she has had trouble with UTI in the past, I understand it is pretty painful. Maybe she just wanted to get ready for sleep. But she does not want to cuddle even when she is back out from the bathroom?

Well my prediction is that if you ask her again within a week or two she may accept if she still thinks that you are upset or if she thinks all is good she will probably decline. But I think your chances of not getting turned down increase greatly the longer you wait.

But I do not think that you will be able to keep the moping for too long before she gets tired of that.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> Most women in my experience like to cuddle but I suppose everyone is different. Maybe she has had trouble with UTI in the past, I understand it is pretty painful. Maybe she just wanted to get ready for sleep. But she does not want to cuddle even when she is back out from the bathroom?
> 
> Well my prediction is that if you ask her again within a week or two she may accept if she still thinks that you are upset or if she thinks all is good she will probably decline. But I think your chances of not getting turned down increase greatly the longer you wait.
> 
> But I do not think that you will be able to keep the moping for too long before she gets tired of that.


She cuddled early on, but it was 1am last night, so I'm assuming it was bed time. I wont take that personal.

As for moping. I'm not doing that. Internally I feel pretty bad, but I've just kept my head up and remained confident and pleasant to the outside. 

As for asking again, obviously if I go another 45 days without, I'm sure she'll say yes. But I think I'll try again in a week, when I feel like it and when the mood feels right (meaning she seems as content and relaxed as possible). 

I'll also post this (probably too long) to help shed light and offer full disclosure on our situation and how I see it. *Maybe this will trigger more insight from TAM people.*

If you read my background portion of this post, you see my wife needed some space for a few nights like 3 months ago. She came back we had a talk. In this talk she lightly dropped a sexually abused as a child comment. She was vague, said it wasnt rape, and it more sounded like inappropriate touching. This again came up 1 time in counseling, to the same vague level of detail. Related or not related to this she said shes always felt a need to be perfect, do the right thing, and i think overall appear to others as doing everything correct. I left this out initially because I dont ahve more detail on it and she wont open up more on it. I also can't gage if this is something that weighs on her or if she has worked through it. She was sexually active witha long term bf before me in HS and we were frequently active while dating . As i said it tapers off somewhere around the wedding ish. 

More sexual details: She doesnt squirm or look away or do anything "strange" when we have sex. She is vocal(moaning or comments) and has orgasms most of the time. Early on she was more adventurous, while we dated, but this was honeymoon period i think. 



I've heard that having a child reach or having a child reach a certain age can trigger memories thus change her behavior. This doesn't jive, as the sex died down before child or child making. We also dated for 6 years before getting married, and for most of that sex was "frequent" or frequenter. If the abuse as a child was a factor, was it not a factor for those years? 

So she won't open up about this anymore and seems uncomfortable talking about it. I'm not going to pound it into submission. So this leads me down 2 avenues to think about, without any real input from her or validation:

A. Something triggered the abuse memories or abuser memories a few years ago, and sexual activity is a put off to her. What are more signs that this is likely the issue? 

B. Her quest to be "perfect" and or do the right thing have led her to a marriage that she now realizes she didnt want. She dated a guy in HS and had a seemingly good realtionship. She broke up with him, for from what I know sounds like she just needed a different direction. Then I enter picture a few months later, with minimal time for her to enjoy single life. I am physically attractive. I have a good job. Highly motivated. Plenty of friends. Bunch of things in common (travel, humor, animals, family importance). Not at all gloating, but in theory to most I would seem like a good catch. So we date and in year 4ish she is browsing rings dropping hints. Moves in with me, shortly after engaged. Few months later sex slows. Fast forward 3-4 years, she is married with a kid at a "young" age. Never single for a long time. Never dated around. Never on her own (although she moved herself right into my apt when we were dating, her choice not mine). In counseling she did state that she sometimes feels like she sort of got too old too fast. Claiming that sometimes she just wants to be alone and do her own thing. I offer her tons of freedom, including weekend away with girls etc etc. Anyways, did she bite off more than she wanted to chew? Did she marry me because to the outside it made sense, so therefore she rationalized it? yet in the end, she doesnt really love me? Thoughts?

These 2 theories really stand out in my mind. Especially the second. But I may be underestimating the abuse.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"She looked concerned and asked if I was ok"

Oh come on, 
you where behaving as if nothing is wrong but she looked concerned? 

Anyway she seems like a pretty typical human to me. Who does not have kids and occasionally wish they did not? A lot of people feel the need to be perfect. 

If my wife accidentally broke a plate she would berate herself harshly. When I do that I just say oops.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> "She looked concerned and asked if I was ok"
> 
> Oh come on,
> you where behaving as if nothing is wrong but she looked concerned?
> 
> Anyway she seems like a pretty typical human to me. Who does not have kids and occasionally wish they did not? A lot of people feel the need to be perfect.
> 
> If my wife accidentally broke a plate she would berate herself harshly. When I do that I just say oops.


Her honest feelings are normal. Totally agree. Her approach to communication and lack of empathy is not normal.

And she asked if soemthing was wrong because i said i need to get out for a bit. I didnt sulk or mope.. i just confidently told her I needed to get out for a while. normal, as you would say.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"Her approach to communication and lack of empathy is not normal."

Normal for who? I would venture that it is normal for LDs. I think lack of empathy and inability to communicate has a great deal to do with it. 

I would bet that she knows you well enough to since when you are not happy.


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> Should I treat her nicer than normal today? Normal? Should i mention how good it was last night? What's my play?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should initiate again tonight. This sounds so much like me, including the 45days and the (seemingly?) satisfied wife, and the _lack_ of intimacy afterward.

Try again. If the response is 'we did it last night', well, then you can respond that you went to sleep right afterward. You want to be able to hold her, talk to her, etc., etc., etc., (and that's true, right?)

I view it as a chance to explain (and show) how important it is to you and how it makes you feel closer to her, better about yourself, better about your relationship. Especially while the memory of a good time is fresh in her mind, now is the time to emphasize all of that.

And, I have had very mild success with this. Over the past two years twice we had sex a second day in a row from this. Of course, sex a second day wasn't my goal, it was for her to understand how the lack of sex created distance. So, it hasn't really helped on that front. 

But maybe it'll work better for you.


----------



## Anon Pink

She does love you! Of that I am certain.

If a child is a used by a trusted adult, they tend to react differently than a child who was a used by a stranger. Trusted adults are the most likely culprits. Stranger abuse is rarer than people realize.

The one thing that is common to all CSA's is an inability to form truly intimate attachments with sex partners. Your wife is hiding, a LOT!

She needs to provide more details about what happened to you. How old was she? Did she know the abuser? Did she tell anyone? What happened when she told? Those are the factors that determine how much the CSA will affect her as an adult.

If she won't answer verbally, get her to write it down. Insist on those answers, you don't need to know more than that unless she is willing to share.

It's impossible to say what had prompted her sudden withdrawal to her parents house for those 3 days. From your own admission, you had some work to do on your side of the street when she came back. You felt sort of attacked since the early MC sessions focused solely on you altering your behavior. But once you had stepped up it was time for her to step up and she no longer wanted to go.

Now here you are at a stale mate. Again, I believe she does love you! She just isn't very good at it...  

I really believe you should follow MEM's advice. I think you are letting her off too easily in favor of avoiding conflict with her. If she wants a good marriage, a good sex life must be present.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> "Her approach to communication and lack of empathy is not normal."
> 
> Normal for who? I would venture that it is normal for LDs. I think lack of empathy and inability to communicate has a great deal to do with it.
> 
> I would bet that she knows you well enough to since when you are not happy.


So help me understand why her normal is acceptable in a relationship? This is the part I cant get.

I'm sure she knows I'm not thrilled. I just dont mope around. She knows where I stand on the sexlessness. I think the greater issue is she knows that, to date, I havent had the balls to take real action: ultimatum etc..


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Initiate again in a week. In the mean time, don't thank her or even mention it. Continue to act as though she hasn't given it up in 45 days, and you're not really impressed. Don't be fooled into thinking the scraps she's throwing you are actually a fix to the problem. You're not even close.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> She does love you! Of that I am certain.
> 
> If a child is a used by a trusted adult, they tend to react differently than a child who was a used by a stranger. Trusted adults are the most likely culprits. Stranger abuse is rarer than people realize.
> 
> The one thing that is common to all CSA's is an inability to form truly intimate attachments with sex partners. Your wife is hiding, a LOT!
> 
> She needs to provide more details about what happened to you. How old was she? Did she know the abuser? Did she tell anyone? What happened when she told? Those are the factors that determine how much the CSA will affect her as an adult.
> 
> If she won't answer verbally, get her to write it down. Insist on those answers, you don't need to know more than that unless she is willing to share.
> 
> It's impossible to say what had prompted her sudden withdrawal to her parents house for those 3 days. From your own admission, you had some work to do on your side of the street when she came back. You felt sort of attacked since the early MC sessions focused solely on you altering your behavior. But once you had stepped up it was time for her to step up and she no longer wanted to go.
> 
> Now here you are at a stale mate. Again, I believe she does love you! She just isn't very good at it...
> 
> I really believe you should follow MEM's advice. I think you are letting her off too easily in favor of avoiding conflict with her. If she wants a good marriage, a good sex life must be present.


I think she loves me, I would not say 100% that she is in love with me. And again, reiterating what I've said before, I'm ok with her not being in love with me. I'm ok with her not finding me attractive. I'm ok with any honest feeling. I really am. These things would hurt, but time would heal. 

I'm not ok with living in silence and or the dark. Look at me. I'm on a marriage forum seeking an ear to vent and a mouth to offer advice. Also Anon, CSA being a reason, could you help me understand why she was more sexually active for the first 5 years, and then cut it off? 

Details on CSA from what she said:
family member, neighbor or two. I get impression she was 8-11 yrs old? I also get the impression family and neighbor were teens or young adults at most? complete speculation here, but just from what I gather. As for family member, I have replayed in my head potential "who" it could be, but really struggling. She doesnt act strange towards anyone and shes not reserved about our daughter around anyone. According to her, I am the first she's told about it. 

Also, I dont know if I can discount the whole idea that she married me for the wrong reasons: appearance of the right thing to do. Rather than true love. This isnt a woe is me vent. This is me putting all options on the table and seeking advice to use some deductive reasoning.


----------



## usmarriedguy

BostonBruins32 said:


> So help me understand why her normal is acceptable in a relationship? This is the part I cant get.
> 
> I'm sure she knows I'm not thrilled. I just dont mope around. She knows where I stand on the sexlessness. I think the greater issue is she knows that, to date, I havent had the balls to take real action: ultimatum etc..



I am not assigning any value to her behavior (what is acceptable or not is your problem)

All I am saying is that behavior seems to be pretty typical for LDs. You can't simply change a persons nature just because it does not fall within the characteristics of the general population. 

I guess you did not like my use of the word mope. So maybe you are right.


----------



## treyvion

WorkingOnMe said:


> Initiate again in a week. In the mean time, don't thank her or even mention it. Continue to act as though she hasn't given it up in 45 days, and you're not really impressed. Don't be fooled into thinking the scraps she's throwing you are actually a fix to the problem. You're not even close.


Literally crumbs.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Also Anon, CSA being a reason, could you help me understand why she was more sexually active for the first 5 years, and then cut it off?
> 
> Details on CSA from what she said:
> family member, neighbor or two. I get impression she was 8-11 yrs old? I also get the impression family and neighbor were teens or young adults at most? complete speculation here, but just from what I gather. As for family member, I have replayed in my head potential "who" it could be, but really struggling. She doesnt act strange towards anyone and shes not reserved about our daughter around anyone. According to her, I am the first she's told about it.


I don't fully understand it myself. 

When you were dating the intimacy level was not as deep as being a wife/spouse. As long as she could hold you at arms length and feel good about doing so, she was okay. She had the power to cut it off on her whim without too much thought. Once you became a spouse, you are now a trusted adult and the intimacy level expected is much deeper so she pulls away. There is nothing more intimate than sex, so that is where she pulls away. 

There are likely a whole host of other reasons that are common in relationships, common to new mothers, and common to women who haven't fully embraced their own sexuality.

Idealization during early stages gives way to seeing your partners flaws and coming to terms with them. The best way to come to terms with them is to notice your own flaws while paying more attention to the good things about your partner. 

What are the things *she says* she likes about you?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> I don't fully understand it myself.
> 
> When you were dating the intimacy level was not as deep as being a wife/spouse. As long as she could hold you at arms length and feel good about doing so, she was okay. She had the power to cut it off on her whim without too much thought. Once you became a spouse, you are now a trusted adult and the intimacy level expected is much deeper so she pulls away. There is nothing more intimate than sex, so that is where she pulls away.
> 
> There are likely a whole host of other reasons that are common in relationships, common to new mothers, and common to women who haven't fully embraced their own sexuality.
> 
> Idealization during early stages gives way to seeing your partners flaws and coming to terms with them. The best way to come to terms with them is to notice your own flaws while paying more attention to the good things about your partner.
> 
> What are the things *she says* she likes about you?


I dont know what she likes about me more recently. She doesnt compliment me or offer affirmation, except very rarely. Doesnt compliment me physically. 

So the things she said she liked about me at least previously are:
-sense of humor
-considerate (door opening etc)
-was physically attracted to me, but has not commented in a long time
-says I'm generous/selfless (thinking of her in decisions)
-says I'm a good father
-likes my drive, motivation level
-Spontaneous (travel etc)
-considers me intelligent

What do I like about her?
-She was always very caring and considerate <--I would no longer say she is. This was easily my favorite trait in her
-She is beautiful
-She is funny (i find few females funny)
-She is up for anything (outside bedroom)
-She is intelligent (we have different skill specialties, so this works in our favor I think)
-She was very touchy feely/lovy, for first few years. 

I ahve told her all of the above, except for the fact that I dont think shes caring/considerate anymore. There would need to be the right time to share this (counseling or something).

I really may be wrong, but I just don't think the CSA thing plays a role in the bedroom. I think the CSA, shh and just be perfect, do the right thing.. combined all make her how she is. And now this bubble has bursts and I think shes sick of having to be a certain way or being pegged a certain way. This is why I think the bubble burst has made her reassess being married or being married to me.


----------



## Anon Pink

> I really may be wrong, but I just don't think the CSA thing plays a role in the bedroom. I think the CSA, shh and just be perfect, do the right thing.. combined all make her how she is. And now this bubble has bursts and I think shes sick of having to be a certain way or being pegged a certain way. This is why I think the bubble burst has made her reassess being married or being married to me.


Have you shared that with her?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Have you shared that with her?


Sort of. She said some of this stuff in counseling, about being perfect etc. We discussed a little and she said that she 100% does not regret marrying me or being engaged etc. She stated she loves our family and our life and just wanted it to be better. Saying that we deserve it. She said her "time away" was not intended to be a separation or anything. I even said in counseling that I am fully aware that she is perfectly capable of walking away and being very successful without me, essentially i was saying i think she know she doesnt "need" to stay with me if its not working. She kind of rolled her eyes and said that this is nowhere near her intention.

That said, i think all spouses do not truly divulge all inner feelings. I think she thinks about her ex from time to time. I think she wonders what if. I think her love for me has changed (as it does in marriages), though I'll never know to what degree unless she tells me. I think she does indeed have some sort of fear of being alone or trying to make it without me. Most humans think things they are not comfortable saying. Many of us would really have a hard time accepting these honest feelings from a spouse.

So this is all why I am not fullly convinced she is in love with me. She is intraverted. She holds things in, always has always will. She may be in love with me, but her behavior in no way reinforces that. 

So to answer your question, I did sort of ask her a gut check on how she feeels about the marriage and me. She said she loves me and is in love with me. She doesnt want to be with anyone else other than me. etc. Asking her if she is in love with me or wants to be with me is pathetic sounding, so I am not going to ask her or talk about this. I just made it clear that I'll respect any decision she needs to make or feeling she has, so long as shes being honest.


----------



## usmarriedguy

My wife is very introverted also. We have this standard idea of women being the touchy, social, romantic ones but it is not always true.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> My wife is very introverted also. We have this standard idea of women being the touchy, social, romantic ones but it is not always true.


Its very much not always true.

Except for when they were one way for 5 years, then another way after that. Unless the honeymoon period has extended from 6 months-1yr to 5 years, at which point maybe I've missed something here.

Boy I sound like a pessimist. my bad.


----------



## usmarriedguy

So she was an extrovert before? That is pretty odd for a person to change that -so she was very outgoing, had lots of friends, very involved with social activities and her family and then that all stopped? 

Have you asked her mom about it?


----------



## SurpriseMyself

treyvion said:


> I like your hard hitting direct approaches.
> 
> I was just thinking. The time outside of the house could be 3 days a week spend learning some partnered dance with the opposite sex.
> 
> It's fun, it improves confidence and you don't have to cheat. The ladies will feed you tons of positive attracted energy if you are having fun.
> 
> She won't like it one bit. But you can invite her after some time and let her see you in that world where you have gained validation.


Good grief, please do not listen to these responses! The suggestion is basically to make her jealous and she'll come running back? So instead of healing the wound that's obviously developed between you two, these guys are suggesting that you manipulate your wife into wanting you back? Wow.

How about you find out why she doesn't want to? My guess is that something is seriously lacking in your relationship. Do you make her laugh? Do you make her think? Do you make her smile? Are you her best friend and partner in raising your child? Do you flirt with her and make her feel like she's the prettiest girl in the room?

If you don't do those things, then any woman with LD isn't going to want to be with you. Sorry.... but that's just the way it is.

Don't manipulate! Step up to the plate and do some things that will turn her on for all the right reasons - and not just once, but forever. You'll be surprised. Good luck!


----------



## BostonBruins32

she was and is close to friends and family. Talkative, but does not divulge secrets a lot. She holds a lot of things in. Still socially involved as always.

The things that have changed are what you mentioned above : touchy, romantic, and talkative with ME.

her parents always ask me "whats up with her" or.."well you knew what you were marrying".. But no i didnt. She was touchy, caring, more talkative with me, more interested in my life for the first 5 years or so. Now it has dropped. I dont think she's checked out, but something has dropped. 

hence my search to improve myself, and try to peel the onion layers in her.


----------



## BostonBruins32

ebp123 said:


> Good grief, please do not listen to these responses! The suggestion is basically to make her jealous and she'll come running back? So instead of healing the wound that's obviously developed between you two, these guys are suggesting that you manipulate your wife into wanting you back? Wow.
> 
> How about you find out why she doesn't want to? My guess is that something is seriously lacking in your relationship. Do you make her laugh? Do you make her think? Do you make her smile? Are you her best friend and partner in raising your child? Do you flirt with her and make her feel like she's the prettiest girl in the room?
> 
> If you don't do those things, then any woman with LD isn't going to want to be with you. Sorry.... but that's just the way it is.
> 
> Don't manipulate! Step up to the plate and do some things that will turn her on for all the right reasons - and not just once, but forever. You'll be surprised. Good luck!


Thanks for the feedback. Something is lacking, very much trying to figure it out.
I make her laugh, I love engaging conversations with her that get us both thinking or debating (she is 50/50 on these, doesnt always want them). I do little things like random cards or open doors or get her favorite XYZ to make her smile. I compliment her appearance all the time (despite nothing in return). I'll leave her a note "have a good day at work, love you" in the morning or shoot her a text "have a good day at work , cant wait to see you later". She does not respond, so I have since stopped these. My favorite was a month ago when she was out all day with her girlfriend shopping, she came home, and I gave her a hug and said I missed you today. She said thanks. I will never miss her again. I will not text her love messages either. Its like talking to the wall.

I agree that a lot of those things that were mentioned as things to spark her interest are silly. By the same token, something needs to change. She will not open up to me, so I can only change myself and my approach.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Something is lacking, very much trying to figure it out.
> I make her laugh, I love engaging conversations with her that get us both thinking or debating (she is 50/50 on these, doesnt always want them). I do little things like random cards or open doors or get her favorite XYZ to make her smile. I compliment her appearance all the time (despite nothing in return). I'll leave her a note "have a good day at work, love you" in the morning or shoot her a text "have a good day at work , cant wait to see you later". She does not respond, so I have since stopped these. My favorite was a month ago when she was out all day with her girlfriend shopping, she came home, and I gave her a hug and said I missed you today. She said thanks. I will never miss her again. I will not text her love messages either. Its like talking to the wall.
> 
> I agree that a lot of those things that were mentioned as things to spark her interest are silly. By the same token, something needs to change. She will not open up to me, so I can only change myself and my approach.


Now she sounds far too self centered to even think of making you feel loved.

You have to wonder with people who act self centered? Do they fail to make others feel loved and appreciated because they are a bottomless pit of need and they can't return something they don't feel they are getting? Is it because she is so used to only thinking about herself that she hasn't really figured it out that you will lose your love for her if you don't ever feel her love for you?

Does she know that you would like for her to reciprocate? Does she know how you would like for her to reciprocate? If your sex life was all that, but in other respects she remained rather distant, would you be okay with that?

Now I'm wondering if she isn't a touch narcissistic?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Now she sounds far too self centered to even think of making you feel loved.
> 
> You have to wonder with people who act self centered? Do they fail to make others feel loved and appreciated because they are a bottomless pit of need and they can't return something they don't feel they are getting? Is it because she is so used to only thinking about herself that she hasn't really figured it out that you will lose your love for her if you don't ever feel her love for you?
> 
> Does she know that you would like for her to reciprocate? Does she know how you would like for her to reciprocate? If your sex life was all that, but in other respects she remained rather distant, would you be okay with that?
> 
> Now I'm wondering if she isn't a touch narcissistic?


I've expressed my concern over how she is silent with me when I come home or she arrives home. I've expressed my concern about how she seems to be having more fun with friends than me. She won't go grab a drink with me, but will with her girlfriends. I've expressed that her physical contact has died down drastically and that it was one of the things that drew me to her. Little things like how shes glued to her phone, but does not respond to many of my texts. Yet will text me with a question and call if I don't get back to her in a timley fashion. My texts go unanswered or unresponded. To be fair, she does answer most of my questions, I suppose its more that she doesnt respond to my "i love you" or "have a good day" texts. Again, I've stopped sending these for a while now. Anyhow I've expressed a lot.

Its much deeper than the sex. Think about it. I just had sex with her last night, after she accepted initiation, and yet I'm still here venting. Its much deeper. But again, I'm on an island because she will not open up her soul. And in the mean time empathy and consideration are not part of her dna. 

This again is why I sincerely think there is a real possibility that she has fallen out of love, but is too scared to make the next move and or be on her own.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Oh so she is not really introverted. 

Do you think she may be trying to not do those things in the hope that you will not want sex as much?


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> Oh so she is not really introverted.
> 
> Do you think she may be trying to not do those things in the hope that you will not want sex as much?


Shes introverted on some level. She likes to sit quietly in her own thought or if shes with friends, she listens way more than talks. 

Thats a good thought about why shes not doing those things. But then why doesnt she want to have sex with me? she changes behavior to avoid sex. So she doesnt want sex. See I think its flipped. I think shes less emotionally connected, then those behaviors follow, then she feels more distanced, then cant have sex with someone she feels distanced from.


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> I suppose its more that she doesnt respond to my "i love you" or "have a good day" texts. Again, I've stopped sending these for a while now. Anyhow I've expressed a lot.
> 
> Its much deeper than the sex. Think about it. I just had sex with her last night, after she accepted initiation, and yet I'm still here venting. Its much deeper. But again, I'm on an island because she will not open up her soul.


Of course, it's about more than sex. Certainly, there's thing about you the aggravate her, right? Has she told you what they are? 

I'm the one accused of leaving my wife on an island, so I'm no carbon copy. Good thing because I have no solutions for you. 

Have you asked if she noticed that you no longer send her test messages? Did you notice when I did it? Did you notice that it stopped? Do you care? Do you wonder about it? Anything? Hello!! (I've done that. Got no clear answers, just avoidance. Escalated into a fight. I brought up some childish resentment from five years ago, fight got even worse. Good times!)

Maybe send her a text, right now, that says last night was great, I'm ready for an encore tonight. Please let me know any chores that have to be taken care of, because I'll get to those as soon as I get home, then after the kid is in bed it's game on. A total of 20 consecutive text messages, and each one ends with "What do you think?" Something to either elicit a response or if there's none, that you can point to and say THIS IS A PROBLEM.


----------



## BostonBruins32

1812overture said:


> Of course, it's about more than sex. Certainly, there's thing about you the aggravate her, right? Has she told you what they are?
> 
> I'm the one accused of leaving my wife on an island, so I'm no carbon copy. Good thing because I have no solutions for you.
> 
> Have you asked if she noticed that you no longer send her test messages? Did you notice when I did it? Did you notice that it stopped? Do you care? Do you wonder about it? Anything? Hello!! (I've done that. Got no clear answers, just avoidance. Escalated into a fight. I brought up some childish resentment from five years ago, fight got even worse. Good times!)
> 
> Maybe send her a text, right now, that says last night was great, I'm ready for an encore tonight. Please let me know any chores that have to be taken care of, because I'll get to those as soon as I get home, then after the kid is in bed it's game on. A total of 20 consecutive text messages, and each one ends with "What do you think?" Something to either elicit a response or if there's none, that you can point to and say THIS IS A PROBLEM.


hah stalk her with texts. No i didnt ask her why she doesnt respond. its a useless conversation. I'm sure i aggravate her. Just like I learned in counseling, there were 5,000 things I did wrong. So i took action to correct these, and was recognized by wife and counselor for this. 

It really comes down to communication. You can't shut up and make the partner guess. Even the counselor once said this to her, that we are far to young in the marriage to really expect one another to just KNOW what the other is thinking or wants.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Then maybe she just is not that interested in sex at the moment and she will wake up some day like Anon and GettingIt did. 

Somehow I had the impression she was always fairly subdued from the beginning but it is easy to relate to everything from your own perspective and I am guilty of that often.


----------



## GettingIt_2

I'm sorry I fell of this thread--it's taken me awhile to catch up on it again due to all the new posts and info revealed. OP, I hope you are still hanging in there. 



Anon Pink said:


> GettingIt, how long would you say it took for you to:
> 
> 
> 
> Anon Pink said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. hear the unhappiness in your husband
> 
> 
> 
> Not long; less than a year into the change in our sex life, he made it clear he was unhappy. But with all the other issues that had cropped up in our life, I wasn't too inclined to make it a very high priority. I truly was overwhelmed and exhausted after having two children in quick succession, one with severe colic.
> 
> 
> 
> Anon Pink said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. start looking for answers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> About five years into the bad dynamic, I asked him to go to MC with me, but he would not. I went by myself, pulled myself out of the funk, and found ways to be happy without him.
> 
> 
> 
> Anon Pink said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3. come to realize your involvement
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> About ten years.
> 
> 
> 
> Anon Pink said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4. finally start making changes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> About ten years. The moment I realized what he had been suffering, I changed. I sat up that night waiting until he got home around midnight. We stayed up all that night, talking and having sex and talking and having sex and talking and having sex and we are still doing it almost ten months later. We both have come to understand what happened, and our roles in that old toxic dynamic. Understanding how it happened has been key to our healing, and to finding our way to a new dynamic.
> 
> 
> 
> Anon Pink said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know for me it was about a two year transformation for all of that to take place.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I must add that there were shifts taking place in the year or two leading up to my "ah ha" moment that allowed me to take a look at myself to see if there was anything I could do.
> 
> First, I had started down a path of becoming more in tune with myself spiritually. Second, he had been trying to focus on improving his own life and letting go of his resentment. The ice cracked just enough.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> I've expressed my concern over how she is silent with me when I come home or she arrives home. I've expressed my concern about how she seems to be having more fun with friends than me. She won't go grab a drink with me, but will with her girlfriends. I've expressed that her physical contact has died down drastically and that it was one of the things that drew me to her. Little things like how shes glued to her phone, but does not respond to many of my texts. Yet will text me with a question and call if I don't get back to her in a timley fashion. My texts go unanswered or unresponded. To be fair, she does answer most of my questions, I suppose its more that she doesnt respond to my "i love you" or "have a good day" texts. Again, I've stopped sending these for a while now. Anyhow I've expressed a lot.
> 
> Its much deeper than the sex. Think about it. I just had sex with her last night, after she accepted initiation, and yet I'm still here venting. Its much deeper. But again, I'm on an island because she will not open up her soul. And in the mean time empathy and consideration are not part of her dna.
> 
> This again is why I sincerely think there is a real possibility that she has fallen out of love, but is too scared to make the next move and or be on her own.


Again, you need to revisit the CSA issues. I recall a book (I think it is titled A Haunted Marriage) that addresses some of this. That is, marriage altering how she views you and why she prefers others over you.


----------



## john117

Just for information, what would be the kind of actions or events that would trigger resentment worthy of 10 years worth of LD-ness? Looking back did you ever consider what was going on in your mind that would cause something like this?

Are we talking "he does not do the dishes on Fridays" type resentment or "I put him thru law school and he never once took me on a cruise" type resentment?

For most people there's a proportionality between cause and effect after we account for various cultural and emotional factors, but to shut out like that for a decade is not likely to be dishes on Fridays...


----------



## treyvion

ebp123 said:


> Good grief, please do not listen to these responses! The suggestion is basically to make her jealous and she'll come running back? So instead of healing the wound that's obviously developed between you two, these guys are suggesting that you manipulate your wife into wanting you back? Wow.
> 
> How about you find out why she doesn't want to? My guess is that something is seriously lacking in your relationship. Do you make her laugh? Do you make her think? Do you make her smile? Are you her best friend and partner in raising your child? Do you flirt with her and make her feel like she's the prettiest girl in the room?
> 
> If you don't do those things, then any woman with LD isn't going to want to be with you. Sorry.... but that's just the way it is.
> 
> Don't manipulate! Step up to the plate and do some things that will turn her on for all the right reasons - and not just once, but forever. You'll be surprised. Good luck!


No. I gave himself to rebuild his mojo without physically consumating with another female. He would also build up social validation from the opposite sex. Plus the outlet is fun and great excersize. It's a world he can bring her in on, and it will catch her fancy that he could get so into it.

A mans needs who is neglected, I know what is missing... And I described how you can put alot of it back without cheating on her.


----------



## BostonBruins32

on my mind..

Another thought concern I have is some facebook activity. She has ex bf on her facebook friends list. They comment on one anothers things sometimes. When she first needed her "space away" a few months ago, I freaked out and found a way into his facebook acct. Yep dirtbag move, sorry for about 3 days I was 100% out of my mind with anxiety, hurt, etc. She had been private messaging for over a year, but nothing "innapropriate" except for 2 things. One, when he got married and had photos of himself in tux online, she privat messaged him randomly "so handsome!". Then there was a random "miss you" to him, followed a few minutes later by "or maybe I just miss the old easy way life was" (something like that). He responded "yeah but its all good, we have great spouses now and life is good" . She said "very true, I just feel awful about the way it ended" (or something like that). And that was it. To me, it feels like she threw a feeler out there and he didnt bite. Now she has always been forthcoming when I've talked about her past, that she does indeed miss him, but not in a bf way. She had said they were best friends for years during jr high or HS. She said of course she misses someone that big of a part of her life. So her saying "miss you" is consistent, but still odd. Then to boot, I asked her a few months ago what kind of conversation she has with him and she said just comments on facebook stuff, I said no private messages? She said no. I said are you sure? she said, well just a few but really about nothing. And she rattled off just a few converstations consistent with what i saw, except for the "handsome" and "miss you". When I checked his facebook, thier last conversation was about 20 days before i checked it, meaning it wasnt frequent (not too frequent even before either). 

Then yesterday, her phone was out while she was putting daughter to bed. For some reason I couldnt helep myself. NOthing to see in messages other than some facebook message from a guy who seemingly keeps messaging her good morning and random messages hitting on her trying to get her to flirt or cheat. Her responses are "all set" and when he asks what shes doing, if she answered she said "taking my daughter out to get new clothes, we're going to see sesame st live tonight" etc.. so it looks like he was trying but she wasnt biting. However, two concerns here: A. did she delete strategically her responses, and just make it look like shes ignoring him if i checked her phone. B. why is he still on her facebook friends list if hes being inappropriate?



Thoughts on these two things? Is there something to see here, or is this overreaction.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I do not think it is unusual to still have feelings for past SO's on the other hand "miss you" is stretching it. Anyway it does not seem like she is having an affair and maybe she did just mean that she missed that earlier time in her life without as many responsibilities.


----------



## Tron

How did the relationship with her previous BF end?


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> I do not think it is unusual to still have feelings for past SO's on the other hand "miss you" is stretching it. Anyway it does not seem like she is having an affair and maybe she did just mean that she missed that earlier time in her life without as many responsibilities.


Hmm

I don't think she had any affair with him , but I still wonder if that was a feeler she put out to see if he had interest to escalate. I don't know who else she may have seen or talked to in an inappropriate manner. If there was anything, it must have stopped. No reL red flags in past few months.

I also have always thought she has some "attention *****" tendencies. Selfies on facebook. Likes to have guy friends . Likes to post everything she goes or where she goes, seemingly looking for someone to compliment. Even when I first met her I sorta thought this. So my point is she seems to teter on inappropriate, but doesn't cross line. And I'm really wondering if I am discounting the CSa effects too much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tron said:


> How did the relationship with her previous BF end?


Don't have much details. Seems at 18 she just wanted to go in a different direction. " I was just done with that relationship" . I get the impression she sorta surprised him with the break up. Like it wasn't. That bad of a relationship, but she just wanted out or something new .

She has never bad mouthed him or said xyz was bad snout the relationship. Leading me to wonder if she regrets the break up, given everything else I've explained in this thread
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

usmarriedguy said:


> Then maybe she just is not that interested in sex at the moment and she will wake up some day like Anon and GettingIt did.
> 
> Somehow I had the impression she was always fairly subdued from the beginning but it is easy to relate to everything from your own perspective and I am guilty of that often.


Both of the above woke up due to their marriages failing it was basically self-preservation


----------



## usmarriedguy

I do not think that it is uncommon for women to seek out confirmation of their desirability. Particularly when they feel like their husbands are not giving them that. 

That does not mean they actually want sex.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> I do not think that it is uncommon for women to seek out confirmation of their desirability. Particularly when they feel like their husbands are not giving them that.
> 
> That does not mean they actually want sex.


Yes, except I but her cards to express affection. I compliment her on being hot and beautiful. I take her on dates. So why need it elsewhere? So what's her excuse... She doesn't love me or want me that way. That's all I can reason . 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Could it be a simple matter of her feeling bored? Could it be as simple as the fact that life and relationships tend to be become too patternized? I hit that bored part when I turned 30 and at the time it made no sense to me. But my H is drawn to patterns and methods, so I am now always mixing it up to keep myself interested.


----------



## john117

Maybe I'm too pessimistic but a lot of us do become our parents. My wife is equal parts her mom - grade A certified DSM-IV mentally unstable - may she rest in whatever (what do women get when men get 72 virgins?). Her father still works part time and he's what, 80?

Me? I have become my namesake grandfather, the guy who was a legendary funny guy, never did anything serious in his life, yet was financially successful and everyone (his multiple kids included but not his wife) absolutely loved him. 

So, maybe there's more than just a pattern at play here, folks. Some people make the transition from young age (up to 30) and into middle age (50) and skip a couple decades altogether being caught up with careers, lawn care, the PTO, kid sports, etc. I have worked with the same people for two decades. I doubt any of them has a fun life, and as far as sex goes... 

Before you go off the deep end about your spouse, how old does your spouse feel? Is she or he a corpse-in-waiting? Maybe all of those in waiting shave moved to the Midwest? Do we have republicans and fundamentalists to thank for killing off fun in this life?


----------



## Tron

CSA
Control issues
Won't compromise
Won't apologize
Shut down when pressed in IC
Won't return to counseling
Attention ***** tendencies 
Mostly male friends that sometimes border on inappropriate
Testing the water with men on FB
Ignores the OP and a successful MAP

MEM, I would normally suggest that BB go with your suggestions for several months in the hope that he can effect some change but I am afraid there is a lot more going on here than just sex. I have a feeling that it is just delaying the inevitable confrontation.

She needs to get back into IC.


----------



## john117

The 'no counseling' is the canary in the mine, but as Tron pointed out all of those are 'Check Engine' warning lights... What is needed here is not just IC/MC but IC/MC with definite and measurable goals and progress. Otherwise they could be in IC/MC for years and nothing to show for it.


----------



## Anon Pink

Tron said:


> CSA
> Control issues
> Won't compromise
> Won't apologize
> Shut down when pressed in IC
> Won't return to counseling
> Attention ***** tendencies
> Mostly male friends that sometimes border on inappropriate
> Testing the water with men on FB
> Ignores the OP and a successful MAP
> 
> MEM, I would normally suggest that BB go with your suggestions for several months in the hope that he can effect some change but I am afraid there is a lot more going on here than just sex. I have a feeling that it is just delaying the inevitable confrontation.
> 
> She needs to get back into IC.


I'm not offended by your summation of the troublesome characteristics you might think are common to CSA's, but in real life the two people I know who are CSAs do not fit your profile. And I am one of them.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> I'm not offended by your summation of the troublesome characteristics you might think are common to CSA's, but in real life the two people I know who are CSAs do not fit your profile. And I am one of them.


I read that post as a summary of her issues, where CSA is one of the issues (not characteristics of CSA in general). I agree that counseling for her would be ideal.

To BB32, look for posts from RCLawson. Your last post about her contact with her Ex reminded me of his story. See if you can see any similarities.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Update:

So we had a great weekend. Good spirits. Something came up last night, forgot the start actually, but we got into a serious talk about how things are going, how they got here, where they are etc. We havent had a serious talk since our last counseling session at the beginning of January.

Before the conversation started up, as she was inquisitive about learning more about how things are going, I told her that I did not want to have a serious conversation if we both felt like there needed to be rug sweeping. She asked for honesty. So essentially I shared with her 97% of what I've shared on here. I shared my concerns about all of her activity over the past year or so that, when added together create some real questions in my mind. I explained that x behavior or y behavior alone is not a flag of an issue, but that when you add up all the different things going on, I am extremely uncomfortable. Things ranging from her snippy outbursts, to constant criticism of anything I do with our daughter, to her facebook activity I shared with this thread, to her intimacy..basically everything on the table. She took it in really really well. 

The real kicker: I explained how the counseling advice and even her agreement on working on myself has sunk in. I told her that I listened to her concerns, made changes, and have stuck to them for 3-4 months now. I also explained that despite these changes, I still have not seen the changes in her or the empathy from her that leads me to believe shes trying or cares to try. So for the past month or 2, with the help of a few books and counseling advice, I am very much focused on making myself happy and not relying on her to make me happy. This was very clear advice from the counsler, with my wife nodding her head in agreement at the time. Essentially, while I seemed probably too attached before, I am detaching a bit to grow myself. I also explained that I havent seen much of a change in her behavior and there has been a very clear change in my behavior/consideration to her needs. I explained that this sends me a message that it is a distinct possibility that no matter how much I improve (behavior/physically/socially, you name it), there may be no change in her behavior or response to this marriage. Meaning that I can be the best me I can be, and its likely that this may not be enough for her to remain with me. And the kicker is I told her I feel much more comfortable with that. 

Well I think this shocked her. She expressed that shes seen a change in me that has had her concerned. She said that she 100% agrees with what I shared. She said that I've am and have always been the one she wants and loves and sees her future with. And this has never changed. She was very very remorseful about her behaviors. She said she doesnt want me to feel this way and wants to help me feel loved or happy in this marriage. This is where I took all the counseling discussions they pounded on me and I explained to her that we all agreed that I am no longer to rely on her affirmation or perception to make me happy. 

Maybe a tough conversation, but I think a very productive one. She listened, didnt make up excuses, cried a bit. I didnt feel emotional during the conversation, rather I felt like I was just resharing what I've already thoguht through (likely from this thread). She cuddled pretty close that night. I got the rare "i lvoe you have a good day" text this AM. All good, but it still doesnt change the fact that I'm still focusing on myself and no longer looking for her affirmation of feelings.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Maybe a tough conversation, but I think a very productive one. She listened, didnt make up excuses, cried a bit. I didnt feel emotional during the conversation, rather I felt like I was just resharing what I've already thoguht through (likely from this thread). She cuddled pretty close that night. I got the rare "i lvoe you have a good day" text this AM. All good, but it still doesnt change the fact that I'm still focusing on myself and no longer looking for her affirmation of feelings.


Watch what she does, not what she says. I would avoid relationship talks for a bit and see what she does based on this conversation.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Watch what she does, not what she says. I would avoid relationship talks for a bit and see what she does based on this conversation.


Thats exactly the right move. I told her last night that while she says she loves me and is committed to this marriage, I told her that her actions dont indicate this is 100% true. She kinda of got upset, but I told her I'm sorry but this is how I feel. 

So you're right. Watch her actions. I have no comfort that she will change long term or even short term. This is completely a wait and see scenario.


----------



## john117

Younger people are a bit more pliable in this aspect, assuming that acts will follow deeds. It may be beneficial to focus on simple DIY tasks such as getting the two of you into counseling rather than expect miracles.

From her reaction it seems she was surprised. Strange, I would have expected a 30 year old woman to be more cognizant of her actions and their consequences.

Good start!


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Younger people are a bit more pliable in this aspect, assuming that acts will follow deeds. It may be beneficial to focus on simple DIY tasks such as getting the two of you into counseling rather than expect miracles.
> 
> From her reaction it seems she was surprised. Strange, I would have expected a 30 year old woman to be more cognizant of her actions and their consequences.
> 
> Good start!


Not sure if she was surprised so much as just taking a huge gulp of the medicine that tastes bad. 

She seemed to very much understand, but it was more like once I said it, it made sense. I didn't have to detail why certain behaviors were hurtful to me, I just had to clearly calmly list them..

We'll see how it goes. If I'm being honest, and I wont say this to her right now, I still am not sure I would have married her knowing what I know now. She dropped another baby hint again yesterday, talkinga bout living situations earlier in the day. It just tells me that we're on two very different pages and as I've stated before her view of our situation is very rug sweeping/hazy. 

Man what strange few months its been. My advice to any young person on this thread would be to not get married.


----------



## john117

There's a huge difference between listening, understanding, and agreeing. It takes all three so make sure all three are happening.

But it's a start. Even with what happened in the last few years I would probably still have married my wife. I might have dragged her into counseling earlier tho.


----------



## Tron

BB,

I think that was a productive discussion...not an ultimatum, but I can see it coming in the future if nothing changes. Hoping she sees it coming too. To that end TAG nailed it...



Tall Average Guy said:


> Watch what she does, not what she says. I would avoid relationship talks for a bit and see what she does based on this conversation.


:iagree:


----------



## Anon Pink

Boston, I'm glad you had a good weekend. It seems like the talk you two had was cathartic, at least for you it was.

I'm really concerned with her lack of insight into her own feelings. I must have missed your post about her Facebook and text messaging.

You mentioned that if you had to do this all over again, you might not make the same decisions. Why is that? Is it the rejection you feel or is it how cloudy these issues seems? Or have you reached a conclusion that marriage or marriage to your wife is too difficult?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Boston, I'm glad you had a good weekend. It seems like the talk you two had was cathartic, at least for you it was.
> 
> I'm really concerned with her lack of insight into her own feelings. I must have missed your post about her Facebook and text messaging.
> 
> You mentioned that if you had to do this all over again, you might not make the same decisions. Why is that? Is it the rejection you feel or is it how cloudy these issues seems? Or have you reached a conclusion that marriage or marriage to your wife is too difficult?


Conclusion is too final. 

My hypothesis is that she is not invested in the relationship but is cold to breaking it off. Being a single parent.. Not the breadwinner.. And the stigma of being "divorce" .. I think she can't pull the trigger on leaving. Basically I'm not sold she loved me. I think she haft fears being alone. I like yesterday's talk, I just don't feel much different about her. I do not think she married me for the right reasons. Real love. 

If she loved me, she'd try. She doesn't try. Actions > words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Conclusion is too final.
> 
> My hypothesis is that she is not invested in the relationship but is cold to breaking it off. Being a single parent.. Not the breadwinner.. And the stigma of being "divorce" .. I think she can't pull the trigger on leaving. Basically I'm not sold she loved me. I think she haft fears being alone. I like yesterday's talk, I just don't feel much different about her. I do not think she married me for the right reasons. Real love.
> 
> If she loved me, she'd try. She doesn't try. Actions > words.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you're right about conclusions being too soon.

I also think it's just as likely she doesn't know what's going on in her mind and can't make sense of it.

I am not defending her, I'm just aware that we women are annoyingly complicated and maybe she does love you but just doesn't know why she feels the way she does...and since she's married to you, it must be your fault? Not that this is in anyway acceptable.

I think she must love you if she sees that you are her future! I think she must love you if she wants to have another baby with you! I think, she needs to be forced back into therapy and even then it might take time before she has sorted out what she's feeling and why.

On another thread GettingIt wrote very eloquently about this really strange change that seems to happen with some women after we have kids. I don't know if you have seen it, but in think it rings true with your experience. I'll try to post a link in edit.

Look for GettingIts posts.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/160697-initiating-talk.html


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> All good, *but it still doesnt change the fact that I'm still focusing on myself and no longer looking for her affirmation of feelings.*


Do this. Don't stop. Ever.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> Do this. Don't stop. Ever.


Yep. It's my ticket to happiness, in this marriage or solo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> I think she must love you if she sees that you are her future! I think *she must love you if she wants to have another baby *with you! I think, she needs to be forced back into therapy and even then it might take time before she has sorted out what she's feeling and why.
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/160697-initiating-talk.html


Is this correct? Because it seems to me that it could be a symptom of her not knowing what is wrong and reaching for something, anything that could make things better. Baby made her happy, she is unhappy now, so having a baby will make her happy again.


----------



## Anon Pink

Tall Average Guy said:


> Is this correct? Because it seems to me that it could be a symptom of her not knowing what is wrong and reaching for something, anything that could make things better. Baby made her happy, she is unhappy now, so having a baby will make her happy again.


Well of course I'm extrapolating to a certain extent. Boston has said she is smart so I can't see how she could be living under a rock to such an extent that would entertain the thought that another baby with a man she doesn't love would make her happy...? Doesn't that make some sense?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Well of course I'm extrapolating to a certain extent. Boston has said she is smart so I can't see how she could be living under a rock to such an extent that would entertain the thought that another baby with a man she doesn't love would make her happy...? Doesn't that make some sense?


Baby was a huge wedge in relationship. she had post partum too. she's has to be nuts to consider another one.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Baby was a huge wedge in relationship. she had post partum too. she's has to be nuts to consider another one.


Oh
My

I did not know that.

I still believe she loves you. I also believe, as everyone else does, she really needs therapy.


----------



## MisterG

GettingIt said:


> Do this. Don't stop. Ever.


But slow down and shift some time and energy into her if she starts to show a genuine interest in you and the marriage.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MisterG said:


> But slow down and shift some time and energy into her if she starts to show a genuine interest in you and the marriage.


I suppose. 

Things have just changed. You can't shut someone out physically and continue to demand things of them. And continue to do your thing.. All while expecting they'll remain in love with you. Hey it's a process. A part of me is dying off. So I'm grieving but trying to improve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterG

BostonBruins32 said:


> I suppose.
> 
> Things have just changed. You can't shut someone out physically and continue to demand things of them. And continue to do your thing.. All while expecting they'll remain in love with you. Hey it's a process. A part of me is dying off. So I'm grieving but trying to improve.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right. 

What I meant was that if you continue to focus on yourself, you might really begin to really feel better about yourself. A change in you might eventually result in a change in your wife and, maybe, you'll want to shift some focus from yourself back to the marriage. 

I understand that you might not want to do this because of what you've been through. 

But I think that GettingIt's advice was a bit too far to one extreme and you might want to consider leaving the door open.


----------



## Anon Pink

Oh Boston I'm so sorry. I know this is what my husband felt and I know he kept it in and figured this was life and this is what he had to put up with. Reading your pain is like my penance for what I did to him for all those years. I'm so so sorry.


----------



## GettingIt_2

MisterG said:


> You're right.
> 
> What I meant was that if you continue to focus on yourself, you might really begin to really feel better about yourself. A change in you might eventually result in a change in your wife and, maybe, you'll want to shift some focus from yourself back to the marriage.
> 
> I understand that you might not want to do this because of what you've been through.
> 
> But I think that GettingIt's advice was a bit too far to one extreme and you might want to consider leaving the door open.


I don't disagree with this; what I meant was that he shouldn't try to save his marriage at the long term (or permanent) expense of his own happiness. For some women, it can be off putting to have a husband paying too much attention to what is wrong with her, and not enough to taking care of himself. 

Take care of yourself, OP. Don't be an assh0le, just make sure you are getting what you need to have balance in your life, even if that balance cannot, at this moment, include a healthy marriage.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

BostonBruins32 said:


> I suppose.
> 
> Things have just changed. You can't shut someone out physically and continue to demand things of them. And continue to do your thing.. All while expecting they'll remain in love with you. Hey it's a process. A part of me is dying off. So I'm grieving but trying to improve.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're thinking exactly right. Take care of you first. And when you're ready, move on. If she wants to stop that process, it's on her 100%. And never forget that actions speak louder than words.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> I don't disagree with this; what I meant was that he shouldn't try to save his marriage at the long term (or permanent) expense of his own happiness. For some women, it can be off putting to have a husband paying too much attention to what is wrong with her, and not enough to taking care of himself.
> 
> Take care of yourself, OP. Don't be an assh0le, just make sure you are getting what you need to have balance in your life, even if that balance cannot, at this moment, include a healthy marriage.


Exactly. The regrets on how I've made my bed are tough to work through. I don't quote have the balls to walk away from the marriage. I really wish I did and maybe self improvement will get me there. 

Almost gone with the mmsl primer. Very extreme stuff. I'm not sure how much pertains to my situation. Your supposed to try for kisses and initiate with more conviction. And it preaches outcome independence. After rejection, smile and continue being cool. And thank god for porn .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Exactly. The regrets on how I've made my bed are tough to work through. I don't quote have the balls to walk away from the marriage. I really wish I did and maybe self improvement will get me there.


Figure out why not. If she continues in her behavior, why can't you leave? 



> Almost gone with the mmsl primer. Very extreme stuff. I'm not sure how much pertains to my situation. Your supposed to try for kisses and initiate with more conviction. And it preaches outcome independence. After rejection, smile and continue being cool.


I forget if you have been pointed to No More Mr. Nice Guy. It is a very useful read to get a good sense of yourself.



> And thank god for porn .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Real double-edged sword. It maybe fine for a substitute in the short term, but it (porn and really masturbation in general) can make a bad situation tolerable and cause you to avoid making a decision. In essence you mask the pain of little or no sex.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Figure out why not. If she continues in her behavior, why can't you leave?
> 
> 
> 
> I forget if you have been pointed to No More Mr. Nice Guy. It is a very useful read to get a good sense of yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Real double-edged sword. It maybe fine for a substitute in the short term, but it (porn and really masturbation in general) can make a bad situation tolerable and cause you to avoid making a decision. In essence you mask the pain of little or no sex.


I should be able to leave if she continues. Totally agree. I'm just not quite ready or strong enough yet. 

As for porn, totally a good temp fix. Not a long term solution. 

I'm really trying to work through the bitter feelings I have, by still showing love to her. Its just little things that I'm either reading into too much or that mean exactly what I thought they mean:
-last night we're on couch, virtually nothing on TV. shes falling asleep. I opt at 1030 to head to bed. As I get up, go pee, and come back, she's suddenly wide awake and attentively watching tv. I kiss her and say good night. This is 100% consistent with her pre-excuses for avoiding sex for past few years. "i'm tired" as she sits on couch at 10pm. Then when I go to bed at 11, she stays up till 1am. So much for being tired? Give me a break.
-she comes to bed last night at like 1130 or so. I am up still. She climbs in. I take her hand and hold it as we doze off. Again, trying here.
-This morning, same ole story. I text her at 7am "love you, hope you have a good day". its now 2 hours later and no respnose. Hey i didnt ask for a response, but its the little things. Maybe she didnt see it? although she is GLUED to her phone all the time and its by her bed and its the first thing she does when she gets up. If she was in love with her husband, would she respond back? Like she does with all her friends she texts none stop? Give me a break.

Play. Rewind. Repeat. Same old song. Or maybe I'm reading into it too much.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> -last night we're on couch, virtually nothing on TV. shes falling asleep. I opt at 1030 to head to bed. As I get up, go pee, and come back, she's suddenly wide awake and attentively watching tv. I kiss her and say good night. This is 100% consistent with her pre-excuses for avoiding sex for past few years. "i'm tired" as she sits on couch at 10pm. Then when I go to bed at 11, she stays up till 1am. So much for being tired? Give me a break.


Call her out on this. Next time she does it, tell her she does not need to fake being asleep. When she denies that, just say okay with a grin and walk upstairs. Get that stuff out in the open.



> -she comes to bed last night at like 1130 or so. I am up still. She climbs in. I take her hand and hold it as we doze off. Again, trying here.


So she gets comfort, and you get what exactly?



> -This morning, same ole story. I text her at 7am "love you, hope you have a good day". its now 2 hours later and no respnose. Hey i didnt ask for a response, but its the little things. Maybe she didnt see it? although she is GLUED to her phone all the time and its by her bed and its the first thing she does when she gets up. If she was in love with her husband, would she respond back? Like she does with all her friends she texts none stop? Give me a break.


Covert contract. You are sending that text with an expectation that she will send something back. When she violates this "contract" you get upset. Again, No More Mr. Nice Guy goes into these in details.



> Play. Rewind. Repeat. Same old song. Or maybe I'm reading into it too much.


Look for the Thermostat thread and read up on it. See where you two fit and whether you, as the warmer partner, might be smothering her.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"It maybe fine for a substitute in the short term, but it (porn and really masturbation in general) can make a bad situation tolerable"

When you have kids that may be the best solution. 

I kiss her and say good night.
I take her hand and hold it as we doze off.
"love you, hope you have a good day".

Would she do any of that? 
Maybe you need to give her some space instead of being clingy.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> "It maybe fine for a substitute in the short term, but it (porn and really masturbation in general) can make a bad situation tolerable"
> 
> When you have kids that may be the best solution.
> 
> I kiss her and say good night.
> I take her hand and hold it as we doze off.
> "love you, hope you have a good day".
> 
> Would she do any of that?
> Maybe you need to give her some space instead of being clingy.


maybe..but she asked me to cuddle more when we discussed sex last time. She also takes my hand in the car and or when we're walking. She likes to rest her legs on me when we're on the couch winding down. Little things, she does.

As for the text, she textd me yesterday morning with an I love you message and I responded back. 

See when I show less affection and try less, she has voiced she gets uneasy and feels a bit insecure or unloved. When I text her or leave a note before work, I get ignored. So she doesnt really want the affection. She just wants affirmation that I'm not leaving her. I wonder if this is a control thing?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Look for the Thermostat thread and read up on it. See where you two fit and whether you, as the warmer partner, might be smothering her.


wow.. that is very interesting. she might be the cooler partner. Except she voices her desire for cuddling and she expressed her appreciation for the random card etc. 

I still think she is the cooler temp. Thanks for the insight.

FYI, this is 100% opposite of what she was pre marriage (first 4-5 years). So either it took her that long to surface. Or it was the bait and switch. Or its what I've said for the past 30 posts, fell out of love but too chicken to pull the plug.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I suppose if that was some agreement between you. It will be interesting to see if this makes for a better sex life or just makes her feel better about not wanting sex.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> wow.. that is very interesting. she might be the cooler partner. Except she voices her desire for cuddling and she expressed her appreciation for the random card etc.
> 
> I still think she is the cooler temp. Thanks for the insight.
> 
> FYI, this is 100% opposite of what she was pre marriage (first 4-5 years). So either it took her that long to surface. Or it was the bait and switch. Or its what I've said for the past 30 posts, fell out of love but too chicken to pull the plug.


Or you changed, or that being in a long term relationship with much more constant contact altered what she needed. The baby may have done that as well (her wanting a bit more space and less of another person clinging to her). Or some combination of these things.

Also, it is not merely turning off the things you do, but rather doing a bit less of them. Let her initiate the cuddling more or sending the first text. It is not to manipulate her but to give her what she wants. If you love sending her red roses, but her favorite flower is a yellow tulip, continuing to send her red roses misses the mark. Touch and space can be the same thing. So see if that is part of what she is saying.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> See when I show less affection and try less, she has voiced she gets uneasy and feels a bit insecure or unloved. When I text her or leave a note before work, I get ignored. So she doesnt really want the affection. She just wants affirmation that I'm not leaving her. I wonder if this is a control thing?


She wants you to affirm that you still love her by showing it in ways that she likes. 

So have you turned that around on her? That when she does not meet your needs, you feel insecure and unloved? What does she say?


----------



## BostonBruins32

another thought here. 

Is one text every other day in the morning saying I love you too much? Is that overbearing? Because that doesnt really sound like being too oppressive for a husband and wife. So even if shes the colder temp, a daily or bi-daily text is too much? 

I know nobody here said its too much, I'm just sorta thinking logically here. If I sent her 4 texts and 2 asked why she didnt respond, then thats one thing. But I dont do that. And to boot, she texts me on the weekend when I'm running errands with our daughter in the morning. I let her sleep in and I run errands till about 10 or so. When she wakes, she always texts me asking where i am, followed by a call 20 mins later if i dont respond.

so which is it? or is it a game?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> So have you turned that around on her? That when she does not meet your needs, you feel insecure and unloved? What does she say?


had this as part of our conversation on Sunday night. I told her that i do not feel loved by many of her actions (snippy outbursts, constant criticism of anything I do with our child, lack of intimacy, secrecy of facebook, lack of empathy etc). She said she was very remorseful and sorry. Cried a little. Felt bad for making me feel unloved and said she didnt want to continue to make me feel that way. 

As i said in earlier post, I confided in her that while I'm making changes (she acknowledged HUGE postiive cahnges in me), I am still noticing her actions are the same as before. Which signals to me that she doesnt care or doesnt feel the same way about me. I was very transparent in our conversation about this. And I told her that I no longer expect her affirmations of love or anything to make me happy. That I have now put it on myself to feel love and be happy. She was sad about this, and felt bad.

But, I sincerely don't think shes acting. I just think she heard it and that was that.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> another thought here.
> 
> Is one text every other day in the morning saying I love you too much? Is that overbearing? Because that doesnt really sound like being too oppressive for a husband and wife. So even if shes the colder temp, a daily or bi-daily text is too much?
> 
> I know nobody here said its too much, I'm just sorta thinking logically here. If I sent her 4 texts and 2 asked why she didnt respond, then thats one thing. But I dont do that. And to boot, she texts me on the weekend when I'm running errands with our daughter in the morning. I let her sleep in and I run errands till about 10 or so. When she wakes, she always texts me asking where i am, followed by a call 20 mins later if i dont respond.
> 
> so which is it? or is it a game?


Don't look at it as a game. Look at it as allowing her to participate in the relationship.

Human beings are kind of lazy. So when one person takes on a task, it becomes the default. If you do the laundry all the time, it does not take long for your spouse to ask you why she does not have any whites to wear. Not meant in a bad way, only that it is your job to do the laundry and she no longer thinks about doing it herself. That task has become one sided.

Nothing wrong with this in theory, and most folks divide up chores to handle this. But you can see how it can become problematic. In your relationship, if you always send that first I love you text, that becomes your job. She does not think to do it. Again, not out of bad faith, but just because that is your job. She stops participating in that way. The problem becomes when she stops participating in other ways as well. Then her needs being fulfilled becomes the default and your needs being fulfilled becomes at her option.

So consider whether cutting back a bit would permit her to engage in the relationship more.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> As i said in earlier post, I confided in her that while I'm making changes (she acknowledged HUGE postiive cahnges in me), I am still noticing her actions are the same as before. Which signals to me that she doesnt care or doesnt feel the same way about me. I was very transparent in our conversation about this. And I told her that I no longer expect her affirmations of love or anything to make me happy. That I have now put it on myself to feel love and be happy. She was sad about this, and felt bad.
> 
> But, I sincerely don't think shes acting. I just think she heard it and that was that.


Are your actions matching your words? Because if you tell her you are sad and upset, but then continue the texting, the "I love yours" and the affection that meets her needs, she is likely hearing that while you are upset, you are not really that upset and she does not need to change.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Are your actions matching your words? Because if you tell her you are sad and upset, but then continue the texting, the "I love yours" and the affection that meets her needs, she is likely hearing that while you are upset, you are not really that upset and she does not need to change.


My actions match my words. My actions dont quite match my inside feelings. 

My words indicate I'm content, and actively engaged ni the relationship. My inside feelings are growingly distant to her. Probably makes no sense. I'm just trying to put forth every effort to do my share of the marriage and see where it goes. The problem is, I feel how I feel. And the resentment I feel is built up and very hard to deflate.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I guess what is normal varies between couples. 

I was just thinking that particularly at this time she is just as likely to see this as constant pressure on her to have sex rather than making her feel secure and loved. 

But if that is what she asked for than all you can do is comply and hope that it helps.

But the fact that you are expecting a certain response is troubling. If you can't text her "I love you" without watching the clock waiting for her reply than don't bother.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> I guess what is normal varies between couples.
> 
> I was just thinking that particularly at this time she is just as likely to see this as constant pressure on her to have sex rather than making her feel secure and loved.
> 
> But if that is what she asked for than all you can do is comply and hope that it helps.
> 
> But the fact that you are expecting a certain response is troubling. If you can't text her "I love you" without watching the clock waiting for her reply than don't bother.


Thats right. I shouldnt have sent her the text because I think I apply too much pressure on myself for her to respond. 

Lesson learned. 

its just too bad. She has her phone glued to the hip to comment on a facebook post about someone's new haircut. She has her phoen glued to the hip to respond to her friend about getting breakfast tomorrow. She has her phone glued to her hip to check her work schedule. But texting her husband is annoying and pressuring.

I also think paying taxes is pressuring and filling up the gas tank is annoying.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Thats right. I shouldnt have sent her the text because I think I apply too much pressure on myself for her to respond.
> 
> Lesson learned.
> 
> its just too bad. She has her phone glued to the hip to comment on a facebook post about someone's new haircut. She has her phoen glued to the hip to respond to her friend about getting breakfast tomorrow. She has her phone glued to her hip to check her work schedule. But texting her husband is annoying and pressuring.
> 
> I also think paying taxes is pressuring and filling up the gas tank is annoying.


Read about covert contracts, because this is a textbook case. You are not sending this because you love her. You are sending them as a test of her love to you. When she does not respond quickly enough, she fails. You need to stop that.


----------



## Blonde

You haven't had sex in 40 days and you don't initiate. Your wife is NOT an initiator, BB. This post deserves revisiting for it's insight. 


Giro flee said:


> Learning that I pretty much *only have responsive desire* was the biggest breakthrough and also really shameful for me. I felt broken and not good enough. I tried everything to change it. My H was the one who finally convinced me to accept it and we now work well with what we have.
> 
> I have sex whenever H wants to now, (unless I'm ill). * H works hard at starting sex early on in the day with sexy talk and very direct talk about what we will be doing later, no more asking like a little boy which was never sexy. Him asking for sex always put me in the power position which I didn't care for.*
> 
> I tried to initiate for a while, that never really worked well because H could tell I wasn't aroused, which made him feel weird. He says I'm way better and enthusiastic when I let him arouse me first.


You mentioned reading MMSL primer and that he talks about initiating. Never read the book but he talks @ it on the blog too.

I really *hate loathe and despise* the advice to go out to sports bars and dance drink and flirt with OW. :soapbox:

How about you dance drink flirt and INITIATE with your wife and see where it goes from there? :toast:


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> My actions match my words. My actions dont quite match my inside feelings.
> 
> My words indicate I'm content, and actively engaged ni the relationship. My inside feelings are growingly distant to her. Probably makes no sense. I'm just trying to put forth every effort to do my share of the marriage and see where it goes. The problem is, I feel how I feel. And the resentment I feel is built up and very hard to deflate.


So if you are communicating that you are content and engaged in the relationship, why are you confused that she acts as if nothing is really wrong?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> You mentioned reading MMSL primer and that he talks about initiating. Never read the book but he talks @ it on the blog too.
> 
> I really *hate loathe and despise* the advice to go out to sports bars and dance drink and flirt with OW. :soapbox:


The flirting is problematic, but going out is a useful tool in him taking control of his happiness and showing her that he is a fun person to be around.



> How about you dance drink flirt and INITIATE with your wife and see where it goes from there? :toast:


One suggestion is to tell her to get ready because you are heading out. Don't tell her where, but have a plan in mind. If she agrees, then go forward with an activity that you two like that can allow you to flirt and initiate. If she refuses, tell her too bad and head out on your own. While you want to have fun with her, show her you don't need her to have a good time.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> You haven't had sex in 40 days and you don't initiate. Your wife is NOT an initiator, BB. This post deserves revisiting for it's insight.
> *I initiated last thurs after a 45 day spell and she accepted. i then initiated sunday night and she rejected. we had a great weekend and she is eitehr just about ovulating or ovulating by then. Blonde, you'd be surprised how impactful 90% rejection rates are on your psyche. After a while you get sick of initiating. Outcome independence is probably the best option for coping.*
> 
> You mentioned reading MMSL primer and that he talks about initiating. Never read the book but he talks @ it on the blog too.
> 
> I really *hate loathe and despise* the advice to go out to sports bars and dance drink and flirt with OW. :soapbox:
> 
> How about you dance drink flirt and INITIATE with your wife and see where it goes from there? :toast: *I would LOVE to flirt and dance with her. She never wants to do that . Even at weddings she doesnt want to dance with me, a huge change from how she was 4 years ago. I dont go to bars or whatever and flirt with other women. I will save that for when this relationship is over. *


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> So if you are communicating that you are content and engaged in the relationship, why are you confused that she acts as if nothing is really wrong?


excellent point.

So we've had talks(great one sunday) and other ones with counselor etc. I have expressed exactly how I feel. But I don't see much value in moping around for days after that talk. 

To me it has been more like "this is how i feel, and now that you understand, I'm not holding against you" .. i dont say that..but thats sort of how i act. And this is why it bubbles up every few weeks and I need to have another talk regarding how things are going. probably a bad cycle.

Would you suggest that I carry myself differently after our discussion (earlier post) on Sunday? And if so, how should I be carrying myself?


----------



## treyvion

The entire point of flirting and talking game to other woman was to build your attractiveness. The image between your wife and you is between you and her. You can build up your attractiveness and confidence with ladies with other women without physically cheating on your wife. 

She will also be more attracted to you, because you are attractive to others. It's real world advice that works.

In a situation where I was sex starved and neglected... She had me beaten, submitted for years. So in her simple mind she figured this once handsome and attractive sharp man could not get a lady if he wanted.

So another woman took interest in me, and gave her "fruit" to me. She liked my company and my sex. 

The original lady who forgot all about me, saw the restored masculine ambiance and immediately offered to have sex with me after years of rejection.

It works.

When your not getting pu$$y, the best thing to do is get some from somewhere. Because then you will be getting it from other places. Just the way it works.

If you got "killed" with your wife, you have to get someone else to bring it back alive.


----------



## BostonBruins32

treyvion said:


> The entire point of flirting and talking game to other woman was to build your attractiveness. The image between your wife and you is between you and her. You can build up your attractiveness and confidence with ladies with other women without physically cheating on your wife.
> 
> She will also be more attracted to you, because you are attractive to others. It's real world advice that works.
> 
> In a situation where I was sex starved and neglected... She had me beaten, submitted for years. So in her simple mind she figured this once handsome and attractive sharp man could not get a lady if he wanted.
> 
> So another woman took interest in me, and gave her "fruit" to me. She liked my company and my sex.
> 
> The original lady who forgot all about me, saw the restored masculine ambiance and immediately offered to have sex with me after years of rejection.
> 
> It works.
> 
> When your not getting pu$$y, the best thing to do is get some from somewhere. Because then you will be getting it from other places. Just the way it works.
> 
> If you got "killed" with your wife, you have to get someone else to bring it back alive.


Very extreme advice. So i wont take it literally. But I like the overall point. And i'm about 70% of way through MMSL book and I am definately turning up the smiles and chatter when we are out and about around other women (stores, restaurants etc). I'm certainly noticing more attention when i dress nicer and just walk around with a smile. Almost like I'm up to no good. Seen female responses at Home Depot and grocery stores etc. Sounds silly but it works.

Now my wife has yet to feel any real effect of this, but I think she would over time. 

Interesting with regards to sex rank. I'm somewhere at phase 2 or 3. I think my rank is equal in looks but exceeding in overall package. Although if physical fitness plays a role, then I'm definately exceeding. The issue is that I dont think she sees it as exceeding yet, although in our heart to heart convo the other day she did say something like she feels like she brings nothing to the table. So maybe she sees a shift. 

Regardless, I'm somewhere between self improvement with outcome independence AND lingering insecurity from her rejections and strange behaviors that have pushed me away. makes no sense, I know, but its how i am.


----------



## treyvion

BostonBruins32 said:


> Very extreme advice. So i wont take it literally. But I like the overall point. And i'm about 70% of way through MMSL book and I am definately turning up the smiles and chatter when we are out and about around other women (stores, restaurants etc). I'm certainly noticing more attention when i dress nicer and just walk around with a smile. Almost like I'm up to no good. Seen female responses at Home Depot and grocery stores etc. Sounds silly but it works.
> 
> Now my wife has yet to feel any real effect of this, but I think she would over time.
> 
> Interesting with regards to sex rank. I'm somewhere at phase 2 or 3. I think my rank is equal in looks but exceeding in overall package. Although if physical fitness plays a role, then I'm definately exceeding. The issue is that I dont think she sees it as exceeding yet, although in our heart to heart convo the other day she did say something like she feels like she brings nothing to the table. So maybe she sees a shift.
> 
> Regardless, I'm somewhere between self improvement with outcome independence AND lingering insecurity from her rejections and strange behaviors that have pushed me away. makes no sense, I know, but its how i am.


It's good to grade yourself, get an outside opinion to grade you. Several ladies or the such.


----------



## naiveonedave

I ami surprised she doesn't get it yet.


----------



## treyvion

BostonBruins32 said:


> Very extreme advice. So i wont take it literally. But I like the overall point. And i'm about 70% of way through MMSL book and I am definately turning up the smiles and chatter when we are out and about around other women (stores, restaurants etc). I'm certainly noticing more attention when i dress nicer and just walk around with a smile. Almost like I'm up to no good. Seen female responses at Home Depot and grocery stores etc. Sounds silly but it works.


The joke is men are dogs... So we kinda gotta be true to our nature, because if we starve it we start to die. So I think you might need to be on the edge of "up to no good", without cheating...



BostonBruins32 said:


> Now my wife has yet to feel any real effect of this, but I think she would over time.
> 
> Interesting with regards to sex rank. I'm somewhere at phase 2 or 3. I think my rank is equal in looks but exceeding in overall package. Although if physical fitness plays a role, then I'm definately exceeding. The issue is that I dont think she sees it as exceeding yet, although in our heart to heart convo the other day she did say something like she feels like she brings nothing to the table. So maybe she sees a shift.
> 
> Regardless, I'm somewhere between self improvement with outcome independence AND lingering insecurity from her rejections and strange behaviors that have pushed me away. makes no sense, I know, but its how i am.


This is good. Either way you'll be ok, your realizing it.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> excellent point.
> 
> So we've had talks(great one sunday) and other ones with counselor etc. I have expressed exactly how I feel. But I don't see much value in moping around for days after that talk.
> 
> To me it has been more like "this is how i feel, and now that you understand, I'm not holding against you" .. i dont say that..but thats sort of how i act. And this is why it bubbles up every few weeks and I need to have another talk regarding how things are going. probably a bad cycle.
> 
> Would you suggest that I carry myself differently after our discussion (earlier post) on Sunday? And if so, how should I be carrying myself?


I think you are missing the point about actions being consistent. It is not about moping, but rather not acting like everything is just fine. If I hate pork, but keep taking seconds every time my wife cooks it, I am communicating it is not a big deal, even if I tell her I don't like it. But if I taking a minimal amount, or skip dinner, my actions are consistent with my words.

So if she is not meeting your needs and not trying for some time, then you need to stop participating in meeting her needs. She wants to snuggle on the couch and you decline to do so. When she asks why, you make clear that because she is not interested in meeting your needs, you need to focus on you and have less time for her. Be polite, but be firm. 

This also has the advantage of reducing resentment by avoiding an imbalance in effort.


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> Call her out on this. Next time she does it, tell her she does not need to fake being asleep. When she denies that, just say okay with a grin and walk upstairs. Get that stuff out in the open.



The hard core LD's don't care if you call them up on it. It's a badge of honor that they avoided sex for one more night.

Call her up on it and see her immediate reaction and follow up. If the routine changes or new excuses come up you have your confirmation.


----------



## usmarriedguy

If she initiates snuggling that is fine. 
I personally do not subscribe to withholding for equality. 

All I was saying is that I would not do extra stuff that may crowd her and or make her feel like she is on trial. 

Based on recent history it was a fairly sure thing that she would not be interested last Sunday after only three days since you had sex last. So you just presented her with another opportunity to fail you. Which she probably knows she did. And now with the "love you" text test. Is just rubbing it in her face. 

Well at least that is the way I see it but I do not know her and if that is what she asked you to do than I guess that must be what she wants.


----------



## Blonde

treyvion said:


> The entire point of flirting and talking game to other woman was to build your attractiveness. The image between your wife and you is between you and her. You can build up your attractiveness and confidence with ladies with other women without physically cheating on your wife.
> 
> She will also be more attracted to you, because you are attractive to others. It's real world advice that works.


It doesn't work for me.

It's real world advice that kills M because you wind up cheating. Cheater's script is that the BS is to blame for the cheating. Truth is poor character is to blame. And truth is if you invested all the energy on W that you spend on OW she might feel loved and if she feels loved she might want to have sex.

I agree with self improvement and increasing personal attractiveness. I totally disagree with flirting and cheating.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think you are missing the point about actions being consistent. It is not about moping, but rather not acting like everything is just fine. If I hate pork, but keep taking seconds every time my wife cooks it, I am communicating it is not a big deal, even if I tell her I don't like it. But if I taking a minimal amount, or skip dinner, my actions are consistent with my words.
> 
> So if she is not meeting your needs and not trying for some time, then you need to stop participating in meeting her needs. She wants to snuggle on the couch and you decline to do so. When she asks why, you make clear that because she is not interested in meeting your needs, you need to focus on you and have less time for her. Be polite, but be firm.
> 
> This also has the advantage of reducing resentment by avoiding an imbalance in effort.


I really think you are right. To be very honest, I shy away from this because of her reaction and I hate a tense household. But the household is tense if I'm holding resentment as well. 

I'll really have to try this. I am very clearly a "nice guy" per the descriptions on here. 

Although to be very honest, I still hold to my feeling that I feel emotionally disconnected from her and on some level, am very dissapointed in our decision to marry a few years ago. I think there is a severe mismatch here, with regards to expectations.


----------



## treyvion

Blonde said:


> It doesn't work for me.
> 
> It's real world advice that kills M because you wind up cheating. Cheater's script is that the BS is to blame for the cheating. Truth is poor character is to blame. And truth is if you invested all the energy on W that you spend on OW she might feel loved and if she feels loved she might want to have sex.
> 
> I agree with self improvement and increasing personal attractiveness. I totally disagree with flirting and cheating.


I'm a man. And as a man, in my situation with a woman who doesn't really love me, but i might have been "hot" at one time... If others thought it was attractive, she would too.

With a "love" wife, acts of kindness can increase her depth of feelings of love, but it doesn't always work out this way.

I think it's good advice for men to remain generally attractive so that even if the relationship ended today, they wouldn't have to get themselves together.

Also to be able to at least catch and have outside admirers just like a sexy wife. It's just the right energy to keep her interested, and keep claiming whats hers.


----------



## BostonBruins32

treyvion said:


> I'm a man. And as a man, in my situation with a woman who doesn't really love me, but i might have been "hot" at one time... If others thought it was attractive, she would too. *literally could not agree more. my wife, whether she'd admit it or not, has a keeping up with the joneses thing going. Even things like our house, or vacations or any kind of perception that people put on facebook, I know shes watching and comparing. So the same would be true if another woman was to try to woo me away. By the same token, the fact that it takes fear or insecurity for her to want me, makes me sick. As Trey said, I'm in the same boat with her not loving me. Because if she loved me, she wouldnt need 50 different games to show her love to me. It would be natural and very transparent. Instead, I'm getting a lot of tactical ideas to "win her back" type deal. Complete BS for a marriage.*
> 
> With a "love" wife, acts of kindness can increase her depth of feelings of love, but it doesn't always work out this way.
> 
> I think it's good advice for men to remain generally attractive so that even if the relationship ended today, they wouldn't have to get themselves together.
> 
> Also to be able to at least catch and have outside admirers just like a sexy wife. It's just the right energy to keep her interested, and keep claiming whats hers.


----------



## BostonBruins32

naiveonedave said:


> I ami surprised she doesn't get it yet.


I think she understands whats going on. Unfortunately, her hearts not there, so it doesnt change how she feels


----------



## naiveonedave

Blonde doesn't get it....

In my case, I started 2-3 weeks ago on this stuff, she saw women trying to hit on me and took matters into her own hands. I didn't try to flirt, but didn't stop it when it happened. She had to defend her woman hood. There is no way I would have cheated.


----------



## naiveonedave

BB- if that is the case, she is checked out, which to me means you are on the slow boat to D. I would either get on the fast boat or ramp up until she gets afraid you will bail on her.

She must be too comfortable, upset that apple cart.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> I initiated last thurs after a 45 day spell and she accepted. i then initiated sunday night and she rejected. we had a great weekend and she is eitehr just about ovulating or ovulating by then. Blonde, you'd be surprised how impactful 90% rejection rates are on your psyche. After a while you get sick of initiating. Outcome independence is probably the best option for coping.


At some point, I think an honest talk @ frequency might be in order. Twice a week is normal/average, once a week the bare minimum: Why you should have sex at least once a week – The Chart - CNN.com Blogs If I was you, I might mark down on a calendar with color coding when you have sex and when you initiate and get rejected. I did this for awhile for the opposite reason- to protect myself from false allegations of sexual defrauding because my H considers it a "sexless M" which he can whine about publicly if he goes >3 days without (once one of our tenants "confronted" me about the poor baby being "deprived" :rofl: )

Perhaps you could even agree to schedule the sex twice a week? H and I have done that at times when life is busy and his road trips are interfering. You can still flirt and build up to it (I require some emotional connection before we consummate).


----------



## BostonBruins32

naiveonedave said:


> BB- if that is the case, she is checked out, which to me means you are on the slow boat to D. I would either get on the fast boat or ramp up until she gets afraid you will bail on her.
> 
> She must be too comfortable, upset that apple cart.


100% agree. I'm at a self improvement phase. And I'm internally kind of grieving this marriage that is dying. This takes time, and I'm doing my best to plow through it to get to the next phase. I do not see a healthy marriage in her future unless she somehow makes a really strong change.

Conversations, tears, counseling, all have not made her change. Hence I am fairly certain I know where this marriage is going, its just taking me some time to digest and work through it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> At some point, I think an honest talk @ frequency might be in order. Twice a week is normal/average, once a week the bare minimum: Why you should have sex at least once a week – The Chart - CNN.com Blogs If I was you, I might mark down on a calendar with color coding when you have sex and when you initiate and get rejected. I did this for awhile for the opposite reason- to protect myself from false allegations of sexual defrauding because my H considers it a "sexless M" which he can whine about publicly if he goes >3 days without (once one of our tenants "confronted" me about the poor baby being "deprived" :rofl: )
> 
> Perhaps you could even schedule the sex twice a week? H and I have done that at times when life is busy and his road trips are interfering. You can still flirt and build up to it (I require some emotional connection before we consummate).


scheduling or trying that is a nice idea. I'm just not interested. I just want peace in the house until I can work through this and muster up the courage to move along.


----------



## GettingIt_2

OP, I'm in very much in agreement the advice from TAG. My husband did MMSLP and NNMNG and I think all that stuff is great to make you a better person for your own sake, with the added benefit that SOMETIMES it makes you more desirable to your spouse. 

What I'm trying to discern about your situation is whether or not, deep down inside, you hope that you do get a positive response from your spouse. Not whether or not you think you will--whether you have any hope or wish that it will. If you could PICK from one of the two follwoing scenarios and have a guarantee it would work, which one are you leaning towards?

1. You follow the MAP and NNMNG and turn things around for yourself. You confidence is up, you feel less dependent on her for your happiness. Her behavior doesn't change, but you are truly ready to move on and are optimistic about the future. You tell her you want a divorce, she is devastated, but you're done. You don't hate her, you are just done. 

2. You follow MAP and NNMNG and turn things around for yourself. Your confidence is up, you feel less dependent on her for your happiness. Before you are ready to initiate divorce, her behavior starts to undergo steady and continuous favorable changes. She notices and shows interest in communicating about her feelings on what precipitated the changes, and why she is feeling different about you now. She wants to work on improving things for both of you. 

If there is a more preferable scenario that I left out, could you describe it? I guess I'm trying to get a better idea of what your state of mind is, behind all the hurt and disappointment and anxiety.


----------



## naiveonedave

totally agree Gettingit.
that was where I was. I want option 2, and so far it appears to be working.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> scheduling or trying that is a nice idea. I'm just not interested. I just want peace in the house until I can work through this and muster up the courage to move along.


Well, the grass is not necessarily going to be greener... 

You have a child together so you will be connected with this woman for life (if you are a decent father).

I think sexual deprivation breaks the M vows and is grounds for D but I also think it would be very unfair to end it without an honest discussion @ frequency such as "I've given this a lot of thought lately and < once a week is unacceptable to me and not what I thought I was signing up for in M".


----------



## usmarriedguy

That is a crazy question GettingIt -these guys would not have gotten married if they had not wanted it to work.

(Other than maybe John who genuinely does not seem to like his wife anymore and only stays married for financial reasons.)


----------



## usmarriedguy

Blonde said:


> At some point, I think an honest talk @ frequency might be in order. Twice a week is normal/average, once a week the bare minimum: ...


While I agree that frequency is a negotiation and some minimum should be expected... 

...I also think that when these troubles start a "funk" comes into the marriage and you should expect some time to open the windows and let it clear out.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> I really think you are right. To be very honest, I shy away from this because of her reaction and I hate a tense household. But the household is tense if I'm holding resentment as well.
> 
> I'll really have to try this. I am very clearly a "nice guy" per the descriptions on here.


The tough part is going to be changing you. You need to learn to live with tension in your household. 



> Although to be very honest, I still hold to my feeling that I feel emotionally disconnected from her and on some level, am very dissapointed in our decision to marry a few years ago. I think there is a severe mismatch here, with regards to expectations.


This may be the ultimate result. But I think you owe it to both of you, as well as your child, to take the steps to fix things all while having an open mind to getting a good result. You may think you understand her thoughts, but you don't know them. Be open to the idea that it is not (her love and attraction to) you, it is her (ability to show it).


----------



## GettingIt_2

usmarriedguy said:


> That is a crazy question GettingIt -these guys would not have gotten married if they had not wanted it to work.
> 
> (Other than maybe John who genuinely does not seem to like his wife anymore and only stays married for financial reasons.)


I don't doubt he wanted it to work when he got married, but that isn't what I'm trying to discern. Does he _still want_ it to work, even if it includes new effort on his part, or does he feel certain that he's beyond being able to welcome her back if she shows that she is willing to work on herself, too? I get a little bit of both of those vibes, depending on the post. 

I'm guessing that he still would choose to find a way to be happy with her, but just wanted to clarify.


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> (Other than maybe John who genuinely does not seem to like his wife anymore and only stays married for financial reasons.)



Very well put.

I want it to work - but if it does not seem to work better get what you can while you can.

I don't dislike my wife but I'm sure not going to go to any significant extent to save a relationship that is doing its best to not get saved. 

Smiley optional...


----------



## usmarriedguy

He would not be here trying to find ways to make it work if he was only wanting an excuse to leave.


----------



## Blonde

> Blonde, you'd be surprised how impactful 90% rejection rates are on your psyche. After a while you get sick of initiating. Outcome independence is probably the best option for coping.


You FEEL rejected

Sometimes when people FEEL rejected, they do things which provoke rejection. And/Or they interpret things as rejection which were not intended that way. BTDT. It works like a self fulfilling prophecy...

So, I agree you want to work on outcome independence = not allowing yourself to fall into a pit of rejected feelings where you stew for 45 days because she said "no".

Still, if it was me, I'm gonna make my expectations crystal clear (maybe not yet- see usmarriedguy above- but certainly before serious consideration of D). "A M without sex at least once a week is unacceptable to me, breaks the vows, and is grounds for D."


----------



## GettingIt_2

usmarriedguy said:


> He would not be here trying to find ways to make it work if he was only wanting an excuse to leave.


That's the feeling I usually get, but then some of the posts started to make me questions whether he was asking for help and support on just getting himself together so he was mentally strong enough to go through divorce. And that seems valid, too. I think his marriage is salvageable; but I also understand that for some people there is a point of no return.


----------



## treyvion

I just want a closer engagement with the one I am with. She has a ton of outside demand, she loves our situation, but I wanted us to be a bit closer.

She's played around with use being closer and she realize the benefits on me... But I need her to hunger for it.

So I need to be generally attractive as a man to the women I'm attractive to. And if that includes her great...


----------



## treyvion

Blonde said:


> You FEEL rejected
> 
> Sometimes when people FEEL rejected, they do things which provoke rejection. And/Or they interpret things as rejection which were not intended that way. BTDT. It works like a self fulfilling prophecy...


Agree with that. To change it you focus on something else. Not the rejection or the fact you aren't experiencing the level of "penetration" into your relationship that you like. Focus on what's good in your life and what you can improve. You can become happier and appear successful if you do not focus on the negatives.



Blonde said:


> So, I agree you want to work on outcome independence = not allowing yourself to fall into a pit of rejected feelings where you stew for 45 days because she said "no".
> 
> Still, if it was me, I'm gonna make my expectations crystal clear (maybe not yet- see usmarriedguy above- but certainly before serious consideration of D). "A M without sex at least once a week is unacceptable to me, breaks the vows, and is grounds for D."


I love that a woman put it that way. Yes, sex and intimacy is implied in these relationships.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> OP, I'm in very much in agreement the advice from TAG. My husband did MMSLP and NNMNG and I think all that stuff is great to make you a better person for your own sake, with the added benefit that SOMETIMES it makes you more desirable to your spouse.
> 
> What I'm trying to discern about your situation is whether or not, deep down inside, you hope that you do get a positive response from your spouse. Not whether or not you think you will--whether you have any hope or wish that it will. If you could PICK from one of the two follwoing scenarios and have a guarantee it would work, which one are you leaning towards?
> 
> 1. You follow the MAP and NNMNG and turn things around for yourself. You confidence is up, you feel less dependent on her for your happiness. Her behavior doesn't change, but you are truly ready to move on and are optimistic about the future. You tell her you want a divorce, she is devastated, but you're done. You don't hate her, you are just done.
> 
> 2. You follow MAP and NNMNG and turn things around for yourself. Your confidence is up, you feel less dependent on her for your happiness. Before you are ready to initiate divorce, her behavior starts to undergo steady and continuous favorable changes. She notices and shows interest in communicating about her feelings on what precipitated the changes, and why she is feeling different about you now. She wants to work on improving things for both of you.
> 
> If there is a more preferable scenario that I left out, could you describe it? I guess I'm trying to get a better idea of what your state of mind is, behind all the hurt and disappointment and anxiety.


So my honest assessment is that she is who she is and will not change. So I sort of feel like your asking me if I want to start in goal for the bruins or if I want my $6000 tax return. Well, at my age I think one of them is unattainable, so its a trick question. The other one is more likely, and more within my real life expectations. 

I am not wishing or wanting things for people. I really want her to like sushi, even though she doesnt. I really want her to like pick up trucks, even though she doesnt. I'm not in the business of helping people want things. Its very clear to me, if she wanted me and or this marriage she would work on it. I do not want to own a sail boat, so I'm not doing all I can to save up for one and learn how to pilot one. I sorta dont care what she wants because its beyond my control. If she wants to find a nice museum for our daughter to go to on Saturday, then yes I will help with that want. If she wants me to grab some steak tips for dinner on the way home, then yes ill help with that. But I dont want her to want this marriage or want her to want me. That sounds harsh but think about it. Self self self. Just like they say in counseling and just like she told me to focus on. 
Does that make sense?

Does that even answer your question?


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> While I agree that frequency is a negotiation and some minimum should be expected...
> 
> ...I also think that when these troubles start a "funk" comes into the marriage and you should expect some time to open the windows and let it clear out.


Totally. And thais is why i didnt pull the plug yet. Room is clearing out. 

I'm just saying I'm less emotionally invested than I was before. Financially? yes what a mess. Parenting? yes big time mess to raise child divorced. But how can I stress about losing someone who isn't interested in me? "why would you want to have sex with someone who doesnt want to have sex with you". extrapolate that.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> That's the feeling I usually get, but then some of the posts started to make me questions whether he was asking for help and support on just getting himself together so he was mentally strong enough to go through divorce. And that seems valid, too. I think his marriage is salvageable; but I also understand that for some people there is a point of no return.


The marriage is salvageable depending on my pain threshold. For example, the longer I can rug sweep my frustrations the longer it lasts. That assumes no change in current behavior.

As everyone has pointed out. Change in myself could draw up a different result, but again, I dont desire or want anything from anyone. I just want to be happy, so I own that. Everything else? I'll let God handle that or let said person handle that.

and for the record, this thread has helped me feel really liberated.


----------



## naiveonedave

$ means nothing if you are miserable. Think about that. Also the kids can tell if you are miserable. They are also learning poor relationship lessons if you and the wife are not at least touchy feelly in their presence. They will grow up expecting that this is normal, which it isn't.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> But how can I stress about losing someone who *isn't interested in me?* "why would you want to have sex with someone who *doesnt want to have sex with you*". extrapolate that.


You are assuming rejection, reading rejection in.

"Outcome independence is probably the best option for coping" 

Honestly, H attempts initiating at least 3X day when around, which yields a pretty high rejection rate, but sometimes he gets lucky. 

"Outcome independence is probably the best option for coping"


----------



## treyvion

naiveonedave said:


> $ means nothing if you are miserable. Think about that. Also the kids can tell if you are miserable. They are also learning poor relationship lessons if you and the wife are not at least touchy feelly in their presence. They will grow up expecting that this is normal, which it isn't.


For many of the couples in this country they aren't touchy feely and will not express affection.

I don't care what their norm is, my norm is my kids should see two adults who love each other and are somewhat affectionate.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> I am not wishing or wanting things for people. I really want her to like sushi, even though she doesnt. I really want her to like pick up trucks, even though she doesnt. I'm not in the business of helping people want things.


Why not? I wanted my wife to like hockey, which she did not. I could have sat around and said it was not my job. Or I could (and did) show her what I loved about the game, explained my passion, and took her to a live game to see who exciting it was. I shared this and helped her to now like it. She does not love it like I do, but me sharing this experience helped her like it. 

So why are you not willing to do that for your wife?


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> So my honest assessment is that she is who she is and will not change. So I sort of feel like your asking me if I want to start in goal for the bruins or if I want my $6000 tax return. Well, at my age I think one of them is unattainable, so its a trick question. The other one is more likely, and more within my real life expectations.
> 
> I am not wishing or wanting things for people. I really want her to like sushi, even though she doesnt. I really want her to like pick up trucks, even though she doesnt. I'm not in the business of helping people want things. Its very clear to me, if she wanted me and or this marriage she would work on it. I do not want to own a sail boat, so I'm not doing all I can to save up for one and learn how to pilot one. I sorta dont care what she wants because its beyond my control. If she wants to find a nice museum for our daughter to go to on Saturday, then yes I will help with that want. If she wants me to grab some steak tips for dinner on the way home, then yes ill help with that. But I dont want her to want this marriage or want her to want me. That sounds harsh but think about it. Self self self. Just like they say in counseling and just like she told me to focus on.
> Does that make sense?
> 
> Does that even answer your question?


No, not really.  But I understand what you are saying. However, "being interested" in someone is mutable, I think. Interest waxes and wanes, especially in the circumstances of life in a long term relationship. Is that right? Is that fair? Is that what you signed up for? Do you have to put up with it? *shrug* That's where the subjectivity comes in. But sure as shootin', it's COMMON AS COLD IN ALASKA that interest in our spouses waxes and wanes. 

Okay, I'm gonna say it: it waxes and wanes especially for women. I've said it before, and I'll restate it here--what women need from their men in order to feel sexual desire changes over time. The reasons why I desire a sexual relationship with my husband today are not the same as those from the first ten years of our relationship, before we became parents. 

Okay, so back to my question: In scenario #2 above, she _does_ want you. She _does_ have an interest in the marriage. If that was possible, would that be something you would want?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> The marriage is salvageable depending on my pain threshold. For example, the longer I can rug sweep my frustrations the longer it lasts. That assumes no change in current behavior.
> 
> As everyone has pointed out. Change in myself could draw up a different result, but again, I dont desire or want anything from anyone. I just want to be happy, so I own that. Everything else? I'll let God handle that or let said person handle that.
> 
> and for the record, this thread has helped me feel really liberated.


What I am reading is that there is nothing she can do to convince you. You are convinced that she does not love your or desire you sexually. Nothing she does or says will convince you.

If that it is the case, end it. To do otherwise is to string her along. That is bad for you and for her.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why not? I wanted my wife to like hockey, which she did not. I could have sat around and said it was not my job. Or I could (and did) show her what I loved about the game, explained my passion, and took her to a live game to see who exciting it was. I shared this and helped her to now like it. She does not love it like I do, but me sharing this experience helped her like it.
> 
> So why are you not willing to do that for your wife?


Good question
I want my daughter to like veggies and to like using the potty. She's 2. Again I'd love if my wife wanted to tailgate at games with me but I'm not pressing the issue. 2 and 30 are different. 

When she's 30, I don't care if she likes heavy metal or Pepsi, it's her life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> The marriage is salvageable depending on my pain threshold. For example, the longer I can rug sweep my frustrations the longer it lasts. That assumes no change in current behavior.
> 
> As everyone has pointed out. Change in myself could draw up a different result, but again, I dont desire or want anything from anyone. I just want to be happy, so I own that. Everything else? I'll let God handle that or let said person handle that.
> 
> and for the record, this thread has helped me feel really liberated.


Ah. See, it is exactly this sort of sentiment that led me to ask my "scenario" question. It sounds to me like you are hedging your bets by saying up front that no matter what happens, it has nothing to do with you. You wash your hands of it. If a miracle happens, so be it, but you had nothing to do with it. If the marriage continues to tank, so be it, but you had nothing to do with it.

I'm glad you feel liberated and all, but I think you need to face the fact that you are one half of this failing marriage.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> No, not really.  But I understand what you are saying. However, "being interested" in someone is mutable, I think. Interest waxes and wanes, especially in the circumstances of life in a long term relationship. Is that right? Is that fair? Is that what you signed up for? Do you have to put up with it? *shrug* That's where the subjectivity comes in. But sure as shootin', it's COMMON AS COLD IN ALASKA that interest in our spouses waxes and wanes.
> 
> Okay, I'm gonna say it: it waxes and wanes especially for women. I've said it before, and I'll restate it here--what women need from their men in order to feel sexual desire changes over time. The reasons why I desire a sexual relationship with my husband today are not the same as those from the first ten years of our relationship, before we became parents.
> 
> Okay, so back to my question: In scenario #2 above, she _does_ want you. She _does_ have an interest in the marriage. If that was possible, would that be something you would want?


Option 2 is 100% healthier for the family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> Ah. See, it is exactly this sort of sentiment that led me to ask my "scenario" question. It sounds to me like you are hedging your bets by saying up front that no matter what happens, it has nothing to do with you. You wash your hands of it. If a miracle happens, so be it, but you had nothing to do with it. If the marriage continues to tank, so be it, but you had nothing to do with it.
> 
> I'm glad you feel liberated and all, but I think you need to face the fact that you are one half of this failing marriage.


Absolutely. 
So be the best me. Remember I'm not her owner that can control her feelings. I'm one half of the marriage.

Look I didn't throw in the towl, I'm just not sitting on my thumb any more hoping for change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Absolutely.
> So be the best me. Remember I'm not her owner that can control her feelings. I'm one half of the marriage.
> 
> Look I didn't throw in the towl, I'm just not sitting on my thumb any more hoping for change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The problem I see is that not only are you not sitting there hoping for change, you are no longer willing to do anything to create change. 

So end it. I think you are stringing her along. If it really is up to her, then stop doing anything and make it clear you are working on your exit. It is not fair to have these talks, give her expectations and then walk regardless of whether she meets them or not.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> The problem I see is that not only are you not sitting there hoping for change, you are no longer willing to do anything to create change.
> 
> So end it. I think you are stringing her along. If it really is up to her, then stop doing anything and make it clear you are working on your exit. It is not fair to have these talks, give her expectations and then walk regardless of whether she meets them or not.


Totally right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

Thanks for all the feedback everyone! This helped a ton.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy

The way I see it is he is following in Mr. GettingIt's footsteps. 

-Work on himself, stop letting the rejection hurt him, stop trying to bend over backwards to entice the spouse to want to have sex. etc..

If she comes around before he walks great, if not that is her choice because he can't control her. 

He is just being a pessimist at the moment that she is not going to make any real effort.


----------



## joelmacdad

BB, I have been in a similar situation with my wife. Kind of stuck in the "nice guy" mentality. I'm the warm/hot one in the relationship, wife is the cool/cold one (although she would probably say she isn't, but she is at the core). I'm the HD spouse, she's the LD.

A few years back I found and read everything on this site related to Fitness Testing, thermometer/barometer, boundaries, alpha/beta, etc. I bought MMSL Primer and read that forum for weeks. I was shocked to find out the way I thought about the things I was doing for the marriage to make it right and work were all wrong. Trying to be nice, please, appease, etc. I learned my wife was getting turned off by all that. I was becoming the proverbial "doormat".

I now listen to my wife better and know whether to reply with seriousness or with humor. I don't let boundaries get crossed. I know how to keep the relationship stable or destabilize it. I focus on me and I focus on her. If she doesn't want to do things with me, I do them without her. If she asks for a decision on anything, I give her one w/o waiver. If she needs an ear, she gets one w/o trying to solve the problem or make what she is saying be a problem. I have totally earned a whole new level of respect from her and it has turned her on considerably.

I have also learned that she has more responsive/reactive desire vs. leading/proactive desire. I learned she was looking for a bedroom change from me, but couldn't really communicate it. I took that matter into my own hands after reading many things on this board, MMSL, and others. She thrives on physical stimulation and aggression inside and outside the bedroom, and I didn't really know that. I do now. I am now rarely rejected in the bedroom. I know the answer will be a yes each and every time nearly 100% of the time.

I could go on and on, but I wanted to type these things to say there is possibly hope. You are on the right track from what I can tell to figure this out.


----------



## MisterG

GettingIt said:


> OP, I'm in very much in agreement the advice from TAG. My husband did MMSLP and NNMNG and I think all that stuff is great to make you a better person for your own sake, with the added benefit that SOMETIMES it makes you more desirable to your spouse.
> 
> What I'm trying to discern about your situation is whether or not, deep down inside, you hope that you do get a positive response from your spouse. Not whether or not you think you will--whether you have any hope or wish that it will. If you could PICK from one of the two follwoing scenarios and have a guarantee it would work, which one are you leaning towards?
> 
> 1. You follow the MAP and NNMNG and turn things around for yourself. You confidence is up, you feel less dependent on her for your happiness. Her behavior doesn't change, but you are truly ready to move on and are optimistic about the future. You tell her you want a divorce, she is devastated, but you're done. You don't hate her, you are just done.
> 
> 2. You follow MAP and NNMNG and turn things around for yourself. Your confidence is up, you feel less dependent on her for your happiness. Before you are ready to initiate divorce, her behavior starts to undergo steady and continuous favorable changes. She notices and shows interest in communicating about her feelings on what precipitated the changes, and why she is feeling different about you now. She wants to work on improving things for both of you.
> 
> If there is a more preferable scenario that I left out, could you describe it? I guess I'm trying to get a better idea of what your state of mind is, behind all the hurt and disappointment and anxiety.


I completely agree with this. 

From the subsequent posts, it sounds like you are choosing option 1 but you are not quite ready to leave your marriage. If you can't bring yourself to leave, maybe option 2 is still on the table (and there is no harm keeping the door open while you work on yourself), even if you don't think it is. 

I also read NMMNG and MMSLP and I think there is a lot of good information in both and these and they can really help you improve yourself and break the downward cycle you can get into with a bad marriage. For me, if really helped me to clear my head and become more confident and relaxed after years of frustration.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I really cant get out of my own way. And I share this to be as transparent on my shortfalls as possible.

So last night in bed, I wasnt initiating or anything, but the sex issue was on my mind. I started to talk about it, and I admited maybe this is not a good time, as we were both tired and maybe under the weather. But i couldnt hold myself back. I expressed literally the same sentiments we've hashed out before:

-what changed after 4-5 years of dating?
-how hurtful it feels
-how she still finds things sexy, but yet nothing with her husband
-the woman i love doesnt desire me

yadda yadda

She was upset, as she didnt want to hash this out and to be honest, it did seem like an onslaught slightly out of nowhere. I also explained that I can't continue this way in our marriage and that its killing me. She cried here and there, told me to just stop etc. I did 70% of talking. her responses included:
-she likes it once its going but has a hard time starting up (responsive desire)
-she doesnt know why she is how she is
-"maybe i should go to the dr or something" <- not sure she meant it.
-she seemed to not want to hear about how much she meant to me, as I said "the woman I love the most" or "my favorite person" etc she seemed to push back on that saying "dont say that"
-something about we've been together 9 years etc.. as in this drop off is expected (not verbatum, but that was the point)

She was clearly frustrated, annoyed, upset, hurt, ..you name it. In hindsight, this was very much not the time to hash out the same story. I just dont know what to do. 


So here we go, my resentment bubble that I suck at managing came out. Drove a wedge further and now it will take days to recover  

So today will be tough, shes probably pissed. Both feel tense. Am I ruining things when I do this? have any other husbands do this? Full disclosure, it was not the right time to hash this out, and I know that. But I also just dont know what to do. And I SUCK at keeping emotions in.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> -something about we've been together 9 years etc.. as in this drop off is expected (not verbatum, but that was the point)


A drop off from 3 to 2 times a week but not a drop off to once every month or two. :scratchhead:

If it was me, it would kinda undermine your point that we just did it quite recently (by y'all's standards). Like complaining of starvation after you had a feast.

Do you ever e-mail her? 

Here's an article to consider sending her. It is @ a sexless M and how they turned it around. Maybe it would give your wife some understanding?: How Often Should Married Couples Have Sex? - WSJ.com


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> I really cant get out of my own way. And I share this to be as transparent on my shortfalls as possible.
> 
> So last night in bed, I wasnt initiating or anything, but the sex issue was on my mind. I started to talk about it, and I admited maybe this is not a good time, as we were both tired and maybe under the weather. But i couldnt hold myself back. I expressed literally the same sentiments we've hashed out before:
> 
> -what changed after 4-5 years of dating?
> -how hurtful it feels
> -how she still finds things sexy, but yet nothing with her husband
> -the woman i love doesnt desire me
> 
> yadda yadda
> 
> She was upset, as she didnt want to hash this out and to be honest, it did seem like an onslaught slightly out of nowhere. I also explained that I can't continue this way in our marriage and that its killing me. She cried here and there, told me to just stop etc. I did 70% of talking. her responses included:
> -she likes it once its going but has a hard time starting up (responsive desire)
> -she doesnt know why she is how she is
> -"maybe i should go to the dr or something" <- not sure she meant it.
> -she seemed to not want to hear about how much she meant to me, as I said "the woman I love the most" or "my favorite person" etc she seemed to push back on that saying "dont say that"
> -something about we've been together 9 years etc.. as in this drop off is expected (not verbatum, but that was the point)
> 
> She was clearly frustrated, annoyed, upset, hurt, ..you name it. In hindsight, this was very much not the time to hash out the same story. I just dont know what to do.
> 
> 
> So here we go, my resentment bubble that I suck at managing came out. Drove a wedge further and now it will take days to recover
> 
> So today will be tough, shes probably pissed. Both feel tense. Am I ruining things when I do this? have any other husbands do this? Full disclosure, it was not the right time to hash this out, and I know that. But I also just dont know what to do. And I SUCK at keeping emotions in.


I'm further along the track than you so I will give some advice (after going through a 4-year calculated based on research plan):

YOUR WIFE IS NOT DEAF!
There is 0 point in re-hashing what you already communicated and that makes you look needy and weak.

If you want to better your stance:

Stop talking about it. STOP.
Match her level of indifference
Only talk if SHE brings it up and be honest don't sugar coat.
Do what you want with regards to what you want first
Don't do what you don't want if she has a problem she will come to you.

Don't be a jerk but settle into a baseline mode reflecting the current state of your marriage. Do your part and stand up for yourself.

I am still sexless so I have a ways to go to where I am happy about where my marriage is but at least you gain sanity and your overall life improves which are positive changes for you and her. Plus you create an environment where she starts reflecting on what it is then just maybe she will want to change once she sees she no longer has any influence she will try to get you to talk make her talk and be a closed book. I myself get my point across indirectly now probably drives her nuts that I don't directly engage her.

Thats IMO the best strategy for a possible permanent change.

I think men underestimate the complexity of female emotions and how it relates to sexual desires of their spouses...have to let them sort it out on their own

You have to create an environment where change will possibly happen.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde:

I get the undermining thing. I wasnt asking for sex last night. It was more this tension in me that I felt like I had to share. And I regret doing that, because it seems to cause damage everytime. Or should I regret doing that? One could view it as "hey I'm not letting you off the hook on this issue until you do something about it"

But to Trying2figureitout's point, my actions shoudl say this. The same conversation monthly does nothing but annoy her and likely drive her away.

Its crazy. I actually feel guilty for expressing my self last night. Wasnt the right stage. Was the same story. Probably came across as whiny. But its still interesting that I feel guilty about something that my wife does to hurt me. Does that make sense?

As for emailing her. She emails me on occassion and vice versa. I could email her the article, but i feel like i already pestered her enough for this week. maybe when things settle. I also dont want to attach a # to the amount of sex per month. As I told her, its more about the why as to how often she wants sex. IE, she never wants to have sex : why?

Also, I have asked her if she wanted to read passionate marriage by schnarch and a few other books I've read, and she says "i can if you want".. she doesnt read books. I didnt either until this whole marriage fiasco.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> Blonde:
> 
> I get the undermining thing. I wasnt asking for sex last night. It was more this tension in me that I felt like I had to share. And I regret doing that, because it seems to cause damage everytime. Or should I regret doing that? One could view it as "hey I'm not letting you off the hook on this issue until you do something about it"
> 
> But to Trying2figureitout's point, my actions shoudl say this. The same conversation monthly does nothing but annoy her and likely drive her away.
> 
> Its crazy. I actually feel guilty for expressing my self last night. Wasnt the right stage. Was the same story. Probably came across as whiny. But its still interesting that I feel guilty about something that my wife does to hurt me. Does that make sense?


Your wife thinks you are a basket case... get a handle on your life and shut up

BE THE ADULT... its ok to not be happy all the time


----------



## john117

So she took the "battle hardened LD" test and failed. 

Now that you have spilled your guts stand back and let her actions speak. If she sweeps it all under the rug and nothing comes of it then she gets her battle hardened LD wings regardless.

The big question here is whether she was frustrated / crying / etc for being insensitive to your needs and indifferent to your marriage or for being caught or called out on it.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I think it was the right stage. There's never a right time so you just have to do it. The trick now is to keep at her. I'd wait a couple days and bring it up again. She needs to know the issue isn't going away. Otherwise she just rug sweeps it and pretends everything is great. Don't let her get that comfortable.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Trying2figureitout said:


> Your wife thinks you are a basket case... get a handle on your life and shut up
> 
> BE THE ADULT... its ok to not be happy all the time



How's that working for you?


----------



## usmarriedguy

I guess you feel guilty about it because you know that you should not have done that. 

Not that you do not have a good reason for feeling the way you feel but because what you did will only make things worse and you know it.

You need to stop tearing down and find ways to build instead.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

WorkingOnMe said:


> How's that working for you?


I will update my story in time should it resolve for now yes I'm still sexless mostly by my not initiating I think I actually tried just once last year and got rejected.

I am just offering advice and there is more than one way to make your wife uncomfortable and questioning herself than "bringing it up constantly"

Hows it working... hmm I will say its doing the best of what needs to be done to allow for a possibly better future with other items better in the present.


----------



## Blonde

I'm not sure @ the advice to "NEVER talk about it" and to be indifferent, etc...

Doesn't seem to work for the ones who recommend it.

Emotional detachment, yes. 
Avoiding needy and whiny, yes. 
180 where you practice self care and engage in self improvement, yes.

But long term clamming up??? Nope. I have to disagree. I think it is unhealthy and not constructive.

I used e-mail with my H because talking to him was an exercise in futility. Short e-mails, dispassionate, maybe including an article, not too frequent. 

I also worked on boundaries- things I was not willing to tolerate in M- and frequently reinforced boundary statements. Again, very dispassionate, emotionally detached, matter of fact. "Such and such behavior is unacceptable to me and I do not plan to stay married to you if you choose to engage in that behavior". 

Not sure how you would frame the "sexless M" issue sensitively? But eventually, I think a boundary statement is in order.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I just hope the OP recognizes that the guys advising to not confront are saying it from the position of having accepted their marriages the way they are and are no longer trying to fix it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> So she took the "battle hardened LD" test and failed.
> 
> Now that you have spilled your guts stand back and let her actions speak. If she sweeps it all under the rug and nothing comes of it then she gets her battle hardened LD wings regardless.
> 
> The big question here is whether she was frustrated / crying / etc for being insensitive to your needs and indifferent to your marriage or for being caught or called out on it.


Good question.

I admitted at the start of the conversation that this was not a good time to talk. She agreed. I said, but i cant help it. i know this frustrated her. So I wonder if this was discussed on the couch 2 hours earlier if it would have been different. 

Part of me thinks she is just sick of hearing about it. Which I understand, but then where does the change or explanation come in? Again, not asking for sex weekly. Asking for her honest assessment of the issues and what she wants to do about it. 

SO on one hand, bad time to talk? On the other hand is there a good time to talk? I'm pestering her right? But if a problem is serious in a marriage, should it be rug swept and only discussed in June and December?


----------



## john117

I know the question was not directed to me but a similar approach was taken in an infrequent sex marriage. Spent a year or two being quite hostile at times and indifferent the rest. 

Then this year I decided to play nice cop again. While there has been an improvement in frequency I would say that systemic marriage problems that got us where we are have not been addressed. I have no confidence that any DIY method like NMMNG or MMSL would work in hardcore cases for the same reasons.

Change comes from within, not because you fear your spouse lost 30 lb and is about to elope with his administrative assistant. Relationships built or sustained on fear go nowhere. The young wife at 30 that has to be "reminded" may pick up the pace some but what will happen at 40 or 50? 

At 40 it will be more fear of being dumped with young kids than enlightenment and at 50 it could be f-it, gimme half the assets and I'm outa here.

And take it from this geezer, that's when you need each other the most. At 30 or 40 no problem but the dating market for mid 50s toaster oven psychologists is not quite so promising, and for mid 50s LD mathematicians even less so :rofl:


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> I just hope the OP recognizes that the guys advising to not confront are saying it from the position of having accepted their marriages the way they are and are no longer trying to fix it.


We all have different avenues and stories. In all honesty, I think typing what to do is easier than human emotion. When you're hurt you're hurt. Masking it or not letting something bother you is tough. 

I'm definately emotional. I mask it terribly. My anxiety managers cause me to essentially talk more to be heard, rather than letting something sink in or relying on actions. 

That said, I've spoken frequently. no change. I've spoken loudly, no change. I've played happy go lucky husband, no change. I've avoided initiating while still cuddling for 40 days, no change. Eventually my stress level shoots up and my resentment bubble pops in the form of spewing out my feelings in a talk, anytime anywhere. And when that happens, I am much less calculated in expressing my feelings. This drives her away.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

WorkingOnMe said:


> I just hope the OP recognizes that the guys advising to not confront are saying it from the position of having accepted their marriages the way they are and are no longer trying to fix it.


Fair enough...but you have to realize I went through FOUR YEARS of doing pretty much exactly what you are recommending OP does and have the luxury of hindsight and monitoring the small changes over time. If anything those who knew my story knew how detailed I was with communication and attempts at manipulation...I tried to fast track a permanent result

If I were devising a PLAN again it would be different form my four year one that involved regular communication and failed by my self imposed deadline. My current recommendations are sound taking everything into account and yes basically there is no plan just living life in the way I see fit.

You don't see me here on TAM much do you?

In the end you have to ask yourself this....

Do you REALLY want to "force" your wife into having sex with you through making her feel guilty.
and after that is the sex real and emotionally connected as every husband wants?

I question the results of badgering. Is it really a win?

See Trickster's threads for the answer

You only know one side of the story and cannot walk in your wife's boots
You control YOU


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> Also, I have asked her if she wanted to read passionate marriage by schnarch and a few other books I've read, and she says "i can if you want".. she doesnt read books. I didnt either until this whole marriage fiasco.


:smthumbup: Brilliant!

One of my favorite things to do with H is a devotional together. For me it is foreplay. 

She said she will if you want so... I suggest that you initiate you and she reading a small passage out of the book *together* once or twice a week or so (and discuss it if you can do so without getting into an argument with everyone's defenses up. If it's too hard to discuss it, just take turns reading out loud for 10-15 minutes a session)


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> I know the question was not directed to me but a similar approach was taken in an infrequent sex marriage. Spent a year or two being quite hostile at times and indifferent the rest.
> 
> Then this year I decided to play nice cop again. While there has been an improvement in frequency I would say that systemic marriage problems that got us where we are have not been addressed. I have no confidence that any DIY method like NMMNG or MMSL would work in hardcore cases for the same reasons.
> 
> Change comes from within, not because you fear your spouse lost 30 lb and is about to elope with his administrative assistant. Relationships built or sustained on fear go nowhere. The young wife at 30 that has to be "reminded" may pick up the pace some but what will happen at 40 or 50?
> 
> At 40 it will be more fear of being dumped with young kids than enlightenment and at 50 it could be f-it, gimme half the assets and I'm outa here.


I sorta feel the same about DIY approaches. But then you have to really reach back and think about why you are following MMSL. For you not her. The consequence of that is you leave her because she hasnt changed, and you have grown. 

I'll be focused on good cop for a while now. I aired it out. No reason to again for a bit.


----------



## usmarriedguy

WorkingOnMe said:


> I just hope the OP recognizes that the guys advising to not confront are saying it from the position of having accepted their marriages the way they are and are no longer trying to fix it.


I do not think that this is an accurate statement.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> :smthumbup: Brilliant!
> 
> One of my favorite things to do with H is a devotional together. For me it is foreplay.
> 
> She said she will if you want so... I suggest that you initiate you and she reading a small passage out of the book *together* once or twice a week or so (and discuss it if you can do so without getting into an argument with everyone's defenses up. If it's too hard to discuss it, just take turns reading out loud for 10-15 minutes a session)


maybe. but she kind of rolls her eyes about it.

Also, i have read 4 books since this fiasco. She never inquires about what I'm reading or asks me antyhing about them. I read them in front of her. 

Not sure what this means. But its interesting. If she was reading relationship books (after NEVER reading books typically), I would be curious.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> at 50 it could be f-it, gimme half the assets and I'm outa here.


^^cynical much?

Or at 50, she has worked through her childhood baggage, annoying hormonal swings have subsided,the nest is emptying and distractions of child-rearing decreasing, she is more comfortable with her sexuality than ever, and the sex is better and more frequent than ever. 

"By the time they've been married for 35 years, they're as happy as newlyweds, on average." JSTOR: Marital Quality over the Life Course​


----------



## john117

You nailed it.

It's like heart disease. If I make it to 65 alive I will have no problem making it to 80. Same with the marriage proposition. 

But if I'm near practice corpse state at 65 it's unlikely I'll see 70 let alone 80. No different for marriage.

Humans are tricky creatures.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> I'm not sure @ the advice to "NEVER talk about it" and to be indifferent, etc...
> 
> Doesn't seem to work for the ones who recommend it.
> 
> Emotional detachment, yes.
> Avoiding needy and whiny, yes.
> 180 where you practice self care and engage in self improvement, yes.
> 
> But long term clamming up??? Nope. I have to disagree. I think it is unhealthy and not constructive.


I agree, but by the same token, repeatedly bringing it up can hurt things as well for a number of reasons. Despite the rhetoric, many women don't like when a man continually raises issues in the relationship. They want him to express his feelings and be able to talk when they want to. But when he continually engages in "relationship talk" it is a turn off. So he needs to be careful about doing this all the time.



> I used e-mail with my H because talking to him was an exercise in futility. Short e-mails, dispassionate, maybe including an article, not too frequent.


I like this approach, though he may need to modify it based on her particular personality.



> I also worked on boundaries- things I was not willing to tolerate in M- and frequently reinforced boundary statements. Again, very dispassionate, emotionally detached, matter of fact. "Such and such behavior is unacceptable to me and I do not plan to stay married to you if you choose to engage in that behavior".
> 
> Not sure how you would frame the "sexless M" issue sensitively? But eventually, I think a boundary statement is in order.


Part of the boundary likely needs to be him not doing stuff for her. It can help reduce resentment from an unequal effort in the relationship, as well as make his message consistent. The key is being up front when she asks what is wrong. No passive aggressive "nothing is wrong" or "I have just been busy." Rather, "I don't feel particularly loved by or important to you, so I don't feel like doing things for you right now. I am focusing on me for the moment."


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> I have no confidence that any DIY method like NMMNG or MMSL would work in hardcore cases for the same reasons.


I don't disagree with this. I would say that using NMMNG and MMSL often crystallizes the issue and lets the HD know where they stand. So while the LD may not change, the HD now knows that and can move forward accordingly.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> I sorta feel the same about DIY approaches. But then you have to really reach back and think about why you are following MMSL. For you not her. The consequence of that is you leave her because she hasnt changed, and you have grown.



In my case because I have not changed one bit and she has changed 

In marriages like ours detachment is a natural defense reaction - if one needs a book for that maybe I should write "Breathing For Dummies" or some other self evident book.


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'll be focused on good cop for a while now. I aired it out. No reason to again for a bit.


Unless, of course, you or she believes sharing your feelings is something that should be permitted, even encouraged, in marriage.



> Despite the rhetoric, may women don't like when a man continually raises issues in the relationship. They want him to express his feelings and be able to talk when they want to. But when he continually engages in "relationship talk" it is a turn off. So he needs to be careful about doing this all the time.


You'll probably get some criticism for the universality of your statement, but it is true way more often than not, right?

Sure seems like OPs wife doesn't want to hear it anymore.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Women don't like all talk and no action any more than men do. 

Show her the goods. You can _tell_ her her what you want, but stop _asking_ for:

1. her respect
2. her desire

Because she can't give it unless you demand it. 

That's right: _she can't._ It's not a choice.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I think that there is a big difference between working on something constructively or simply rehashing the same old tired complaints. 

How much time has the lower than desired rate of sex been an issue Boston? (I mean that there is no doubt on her part that it is an issue for you) 

Didn't she drop out of counseling just as soon as there was any suggestion that she might need to change?

Now she thinks that maybe you need to go see a doctor because you have a problem.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

1812overture said:


> You'll probably get some criticism for the universality of your statement, but it is true way more often than not, right?


I don't know how often it is true, but certainly often enough that men need to be careful about walking the line between making their feelings known and overwhelming a woman and loosing attraction and respect.



> Sure seems like OPs wife doesn't want to hear it anymore.


But that may be as much because it makes her feel bad. So brief comments every couple days that her treatment does not make him feel good about the marriage can be useful to prevent her from ignoring it. But a three hour in-depth discussion daily about their issues will likely not help.


----------



## joelmacdad

BB, I wonder if your wife just needs a good erotic spanking? Or the need to just be "taken" awakening her responsive desire? And don't ask her if she wants it, tell her she's getting it. I know, lots of people rolling their eyes I'm sure! But, it's what I learned about my wife 3 years ago.


----------



## Blonde

usmarriedguy said:


> Now she thinks that maybe you need to go see a doctor because you have a problem.


I interpreted that as projection on the W part. 

She is the one who lacks the sex drive to put them in the normal/average range so she should see a doctor.

Is she on antidepressants? birth control? BP meds? Meds can diminish libido. If ad's I suggest trying wellbutrin. It is said to have the opposite side effect of increasing libido.

If I hear projection in an argument with my H, I call him on it. The examples would be different than yours. But in your argument, I might say something like, "Me see a doctor? Are you projecting? The normal/average amt of sexual activity for people in our age range is 2-3 times a week. I'm up for that. (gentle concerned voice-->) Do you need to see a doctor?"


----------



## GettingIt_2

joelmacdad said:


> BB, I wonder if your wife just needs a good erotic spanking? Or the need to just be "taken" awakening her responsive desire? And don't ask her if she wants it, tell her she's getting it. I know, lots of people rolling their eyes I'm sure! But, it's what I learned about my wife 3 years ago.


I'm gonna have to chime in with a "hell yeah!"


----------



## Tall Average Guy

GettingIt said:


> I'm gonna have to chime in with a "hell yeah!"


How does her CSA change how that should be viewed? It would make me hesitate to take this action.


----------



## MisterG

Blonde said:


> Emotional detachment, yes.
> Avoiding needy and whiny, yes.
> 180 where you practice self care and engage in self improvement, yes.
> 
> But long term clamming up??? Nope. I have to disagree. I think it is unhealthy and not constructive.
> 
> I used e-mail with my H because talking to him was an exercise in futility. Short e-mails, dispassionate, maybe including an article, not too frequent.
> 
> I also worked on boundaries- things I was not willing to tolerate in M- and frequently reinforced boundary statements. Again, very dispassionate, emotionally detached, matter of fact. "Such and such behavior is unacceptable to me and I do not plan to stay married to you if you choose to engage in that behavior".
> 
> Not sure how you would frame the "sexless M" issue sensitively? But eventually, I think a boundary statement is in order.


I agree with Blonde. Being needy or complaining is not sexy, and it's not going to improve your sex life or your wife's opinion of you. And work on yourself. Your marriage has stretched you to your limits. Go out with friends this weekend, watch the Superbowl, laugh, and have a good time (or find something else away from the house that you enjoy). You need some positive experiences on a regular basis (so does your wife, so work with her on this too) to balance the stress in your marriage. 

I also agree on the boundaries. Don't be a ****, but learn to say no if a request or the situation is unreasonable. As Blonde said, be dispassionate about it, but be firm.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Tall Average Guy said:


> How does her CSA change how that should be viewed? It would make me hesitate to take this action.


I have no idea, TBH. 

OP, what's your sex style with your wife? Does she like being dominated by you in bed? Does she like it when you take the lead, are aggressive, etc. 

Sorry is this has already been covered . . .


----------



## GettingIt_2

MisterG said:


> I agree with Blonde. Being needy or complaining is not sexy


More to the point, it shoes zero leadership, zero confidence, zero dominance. 

Women have little warning devices planted in their DNA that scream, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don't mate with HIM! Dud alert! Dud alert!"

Really. It's true.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> I think that there is a big difference between working on something constructively or simply rehashing the same old tired complaints.
> 
> How much time has the lower than desired rate of sex been an issue Boston? (I mean that there is no doubt on her part that it is an issue for you) *I'd say it dropped 4 years ago..and has been an issue to me for most of those years (i exclude pregnancy/post labor)*
> 
> Didn't she drop out of counseling just as soon as there was any suggestion that she might need to change? *she magically didnt want to go anymore after she took heat about not communicating about her lack fo desire to have sex.*
> 
> Now she thinks that maybe you need to go see a doctor because you have a problem. *no..she briefly said "maybe I should see a dr or something" when we were talking about her desire.. i cant see her actually going to get herself tested, but she just sorta said it*


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> I interpreted that as projection on the W part.
> 
> She is the one who lacks the sex drive to put them in the normal/average range so she should see a doctor.
> 
> Is she on antidepressants? birth control? BP meds? Meds can diminish libido. If ad's I suggest trying wellbutrin. It is said to have the opposite side effect of increasing libido. *She is not on any medicine. She was on BC a few years ago, but that mader her feel emotionally off. *
> 
> If I hear projection in an argument with my H, I call him on it. The examples would be different than yours. But in your argument, I might say something like, "Me see a doctor? Are you projecting? The normal/average amt of sexual activity for people in our age range is 2-3 times a week. I'm up for that. (gentle concerned voice-->) Do you need to see a doctor?"


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> More to the point, it shoes zero leadership, zero confidence, zero dominance.
> 
> Women have little warning devices planted in their DNA that scream, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don't mate with HIM! Dud alert! Dud alert!"
> 
> Really. It's true.


I wish men had the NOOOO Bait and Switch alert! Run! Run!

I agree its unattractive, I just want her to hear me and or care. Or just be honest with me (back to my point in earlier posts about her not being in love with me anymore).


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> I have no idea, TBH.
> 
> OP, what's your sex style with your wife? Does she like being dominated by you in bed? Does she like it when you take the lead, are aggressive, etc.
> 
> Sorry is this has already been covered . . .


She likes me to take charge definately. Not anything over aggressive, but I think she likes some element of roughness. we don't do soft missionary or anything. She also does like me going down on her, as I have a pretty good handle on pushing her button (can get her off this way within maybe 5 mins).

She said last night the sex is good. And I have to take her word for it on some level. She orgasms every time. How would I know? I guess she could be faking it, but she seems to orgasm, get loud, squirm a lot. Then she is instantly super sensitive down there and she slows down a little. Good signs i think? But i digress.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Oh, I misread that. She said that she should go see a doctor.
Well that is some progress. 

So you have been trying to get her to actively change her behavior for 4 years?


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> Oh, I misread that. She said that she should go see a doctor.
> Well that is some progress.
> 
> So you have been trying to get her to actively change her behavior for 4 years?


Less actively early on, more actively in past year. There is no way she doesn't understand how it hurts me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

GettingIt said:


> More to the point, it shoes zero leadership, zero confidence, zero dominance.
> 
> 
> 
> Women have little warning devices planted in their DNA that scream, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don't mate with HIM! Dud alert! Dud alert!"
> 
> 
> 
> Really. It's true.



Not so sure about it. I know many women that married duds to get out of specific situations or to improve particular situations. 

I do think that men are easier to read than women so the Dud Detector may go off only if the woman actively thinks the guy may be a dud. Or, alternatively, that women read thru men BS easier than men read thru women BS...


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> I wish men had the NOOOO Bait and Switch alert! Run! Run!
> 
> I agree its unattractive, I just want her to hear me and or care. Or just be honest with me (back to my point in earlier posts about her not being in love with me anymore).


Contrary to what some men seem to believe, the so-called "bait and switch" isn't something we plan. Women want and need to desire their husbands. When they don't, it starts to change their behavior and, yes, it's not pleasant. 

I always take heat when I say this, but what triggers a woman's desire is a moving target in long term relationships. The men who come to realize and accept this are the ones who are going to have success in recalling intimacy and sex to their marriages. 

Now, there are clues to be found on what might trip your wife's desire: that's why I asked you about whether she like you dominant in the bedroom. You have two really good things going for you, from what I can see.

1. She likes you dominant in the bedroom
2. She thinks you're a good lover, and responds to you sexually

Stay the course. I've think she is revealing, through what she responds to sexually, what she needs you to be like as a husband. In short: be the dominant. Some women need a reallllyyyyyy strong lead, and you're going to get sh*t tests to no end. Keep your frame, and then push the envelope. 

If you're really at wits end, if you really so see yourself preparing for divorce if nothing changes, what do you have to lose?


----------



## Anon Pink

joelmacdad said:


> BB, I wonder if your wife just needs a good erotic spanking? Or the need to just be "taken" awakening her responsive desire? And don't ask her if she wants it, tell her she's getting it. I know, lots of people rolling their eyes I'm sure! But, it's what I learned about my wife 3 years ago.


As a CSA, taking this sort of action should not be done unless you are ready for the emotion that will come forth once you do it.

It means you have to be confident, it means you have to be ready to dry her tears while not apologizing for prompting them. It means you have to be okay with her being mad at you. (Mad being different from self preservation mode) It means you have to do what is best for her and for the marriage and sometimes that means forcing this issue!

I think back in my days of hiding, after I had made peace with my sexuality but before I could go to my H when I wanted him, this would have made me angry and made me realize he takes the health of our relationship too seriously to be passive and wait for me to get my sh!t together.

So I third this idea. You could certainly put her over you lap and threaten to spank her a few times...


----------



## 1812overture

GettingIt said:


> If you're really at wits end, if you really so see yourself preparing for divorce if nothing changes, what do you have to lose?


While the OP hasn't gone into detail about his feelings on this topic, of course, one thing he has to lose is daily interaction with his daughter. His wife stands to lose exactly that, too, but that's a classic case where it isn't necessarily okay so long as they both pay the same price. 

Which is not to say his daughter is better off with status quo, if status quo is a poor marriage and continuous tension in the house. But the generic "what's best for my child?" is rarely comfortably answered with "being around dad less."


----------



## BostonBruins32

1812overture said:


> While the OP hasn't gone into detail about his feelings on this topic, of course, one thing he has to lose is daily interaction with his daughter. His wife stands to lose exactly that, too, but that's a classic case where it isn't necessarily okay so long as they both pay the same price.
> 
> Which is not to say his daughter is better off with status quo, if status quo is a poor marriage and continuous tension in the house. But the generic "what's best for my child?" is rarely comfortably answered with "being around dad less."


100% agree. No way I would have been ok with this if we were gf bf or childless. 75% I would have peaced out by now.


----------



## MisterG

joelmacdad said:


> BB, I wonder if your wife just needs a good erotic spanking? Or the need to just be "taken" awakening her responsive desire? And don't ask her if she wants it, tell her she's getting it. I know, lots of people rolling their eyes I'm sure! But, it's what I learned about my wife 3 years ago.


I see this as a high risk, high reward gamble. It could be exactly what she needs, or it could be a disaster. Even if BB's wife is of the mindset to enjoy and respond well to a good spanking, and to prefer a more submissive role in the relationship, the state of the marriage may make it a no-go for her at this time.

I think if I had tried this at some of the low points of my marriage, it would have ended with me either in jail for domestic violence, or murdered in my sleep that night (note the absence of a laughing smiley face).


----------



## BostonBruins32

MisterG said:


> I see this as a high risk, high reward gamble. It could be exactly what she needs, or it could be a disaster. Even if BB's wife is of the mindset to enjoy and respond well to a good spanking, and to prefer a more submissive role in the relationship, the state of the marriage may make it a no-go for her at this time.
> 
> I think if I had tried this at some of the low points of my marriage, it would have ended with me either in jail for domestic violence, or murdered in my sleep that night (note the absence of a laughing smiley face).


No way in hell I try this. I'm open to just initiating in the kitchen or jumping in the shower while she's in there. Not spanking until I learn more. I don't even think it'd s turn on but what do I know
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterG

BostonBruins32 said:


> No way in hell I try this. I'm open to just initiating in the kitchen or jumping in the shower while she's in there.


A good plan, I think. Do it and stay positive. 



BostonBruins32 said:


> Not spanking until I learn more. I don't even think it'd s turn on but what do I know


There is a bunch of info out there. Read and and ask questions. Maybe you and your wife are right for it and just don't know it yet.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MisterG said:


> A good plan, I think. Do it and stay positive.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a bunch of info out there. Read and and ask questions. Maybe you and your wife are right for it and just don't know it yet.


She may like it who knows. She could have untapped kink. Said no to the butt though as I've tried to work that slowly into the equation during cunnilingis and during doggy style. But I digress. She likes a good stuffing, so I never go soft on her..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterG

BostonBruins32 said:


> She may like it who knows. She could have untapped kink. Said no to the butt though as I've tried to work that slowly into the equation during cunnilingis and during doggy style. But I digress. She likes a good stuffing, so I never go soft on her..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Respect her limits and don't get down about it. Keep trying new things and see where it takes you. 

I think it would be tough to jump right into a new kink without working up to it a bit. Take your time and enjoy the journey. You never know what you'll find.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> She may like it who knows. She could have untapped kink. *Said no to the butt though *as I've tried to work that slowly into the equation during cunnilingis and during doggy style. [/i][/size]


Care to clarify here?? :scratchhead: 

Do you mean spanking . . . or something else altogether?


----------



## ocotillo

GettingIt said:


> I always take heat when I say this,


I'm afraid I've been guilty of that. Sorry! Realistically though, you *are *going to take heat from men (Especially men my age) who have fought the male counterpart to this and won:




GettingIt said:


> Women have little warning devices planted in their DNA that scream, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don't mate with HIM! Dud alert! Dud alert!"


A very, very similar phenomenon exists in men. The triggers are simply different.


----------



## GettingIt_2

ocotillo said:


> I'm afraid I've been guilty of that. Sorry! Realistically though, you *are *going to take heat from men (Especially men my age) who have fought the male counterpart to this and won:
> 
> A very, very similar phenomenon exists in men. The triggers are simply different.


Wait, what's the male counterpart you've fought? What's the phenom in men?


----------



## ocotillo

GettingIt said:


> Wait, what's the male counterpart you've fought? What's the phenom in men?


It typically occurs a little later in life and is even more unfair (If that is possible) because it's tied to the age of a man's partner rather than her conduct. Subtle changes in her body indicate at a primal level that she is no longer a "Fit candidate" for reproduction. To add insult to injury, it happens at a point in a man's life when women substantially younger than both himself and his partner may suddenly start showing an interest in him if he's had any degree of material success at all. It happened to me and I don't even think I'm terribly handsome. To add even more insult to injury it can happen at a point in life when HD & LD niches suddenly reverse between a man and his wife. Life is a roller coaster and I've banged the drum of rising above these primal impulses since I discovered TAM.


----------



## GettingIt_2

ocotillo said:


> It typically occurs a little later in life and is even more unfair (If that is possible) because it's tied to the age of a man's partner rather than her conduct. Subtle changes in her body indicate at a primal level that she is no longer a "Fit candidate" for reproduction. To add insult to injury, it happens at a point in a man's life when women substantially younger than both himself and his partner may suddenly start showing an interest in him if he's had any degree of material success at all. It happened to me and I don't even think I'm terribly handsome. To add even more insult to injury it can happen at a point in life when HD & LD niches suddenly reverse between a man and his wife. Life is a roller coaster and I've banged the drum of rising above these primal impulses since I discovered TAM.


What's wrong with finding a mutually beneficial and agreeable way to accommodate the primal urges rather than "rising above" them?

It seem many men come here wanting to know what might be going on in their LD wives' minds because they want to stay married to them, they want to be desired by them. If they are willing (and sometimes happy) to accommodate their wives' desire needs, what's the problem?

Maybe somebody out there has a recommendation for a beneficial and mutually agreeable way to accommodate men's changing desire needs as you describe above? Dunno . . . don't see many posters here in SIM asking. Have you?


----------



## ocotillo

GettingIt said:


> What's wrong with finding a mutually beneficial and agreeable way to accommodate the primal urges rather than "rising above" them?


What you suggest above is obviously the ideal solution for everybody involved. If you can communicate your needs to your husband and he can accommodate you, than more power too both of you. 

Things are harder once the damage is done though. It's very easy for a man to look back on a history of denial and conclude that women are simply incapable of love and rationalize the interest of a younger woman on that basis. I've seen it in my own family.


----------



## MEM2020

Getting It,
Your post is gold.

Her loss of desire is highly correlated to her perception of Boston as weak. 

Soon as they got engaged she started compulsively shlt testing him. And he started failing, and then epically failing. 

While it is true that a woman like this wants to know her H is totally committed to her and won't leave her. It is every bit as true that she needs to know that:
- he won't tolerate her bullshlt AND
- he will inflict measured consequences when she misbehaves without fear of her leaving him 

Ah damn it all, I was planning to create a separate thread for this so as to avoid embarrassing Boston. 

As soon as she began the rejection cycle Boston needed to step up. He didn't. Boston - I will depict my own dysfunction first and then address what really happened to you.

As many of you know our first child was an accident. Today she is a terrific 23 year old, back then she was a mortifyingly embarrassing pregnancy to my very catholic wife. 

Back then there was no internet and no information about shlt tests and alpha/beta traits. 

So I will simply describe what happened and hope that you will all understand that I did what I did reflexively and without conscious thought. 

The good:
Mrs. MEM twice tried to engage in transactional sex with me. On both occasions she wanted something specific that I had already declined to agree to. She realized how much I loved having sex with her and so twice she started the process and then stopped and askd to discuss "X". And both times I responded with a classic and 'hard wired' alpha pattern. Totally calm:
- started to get dressed and said 
- oh, you want to discuss that, let's get dressed and talk about it

Both times she dropped he request and fvcked my brains out. 

----------
Continuing to initiate in the face of a high rejection rate comes across as selfish or weak/desperate and is a huge turn off. 






GettingIt said:


> Contrary to what some men seem to believe, the so-called "bait and switch" isn't something we plan. Women want and need to desire their husbands. When they don't, it starts to change their behavior and, yes, it's not pleasant.
> 
> I always take heat when I say this, but what triggers a woman's desire is a moving target in long term relationships. The men who come to realize and accept this are the ones who are going to have success in recalling intimacy and sex to their marriages.
> 
> Now, there are clues to be found on what might trip your wife's desire: that's why I asked you about whether she like you dominant in the bedroom. You have two really good things going for you, from what I can see.
> 
> 1. She likes you dominant in the bedroom
> 2. She thinks you're a good lover, and responds to you sexually
> 
> Stay the course. I've think she is revealing, through what she responds to sexually, what she needs you to be like as a husband. In short: be the dominant. Some women need a reallllyyyyyy strong lead, and you're going to get sh*t tests to no end. Keep your frame, and then push the envelope.
> 
> If you're really at wits end, if you really so see yourself preparing for divorce if nothing changes, what do you have to lose?


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Getting It,
> Your post is gold.
> 
> Her loss of desire is highly correlated to her perception of Boston as weak.
> 
> Soon as they got engaged she started compulsively shlt testing him. And he started failing, and then epically failing.
> 
> While it is true that a woman like this wants to know her H is totally committed to her and won't leave her. It is every bit as true that she needs to know that:
> - he won't tolerate her bullshlt AND
> - he will inflict measured consequences when she misbehaves without fear of her leaving him
> 
> Ah damn it all, I was planning to create a separate thread for this so as to avoid embarrassing Boston.
> 
> As soon as she began the rejection cycle Boston needed to step up. He didn't. Boston - I will depict my own dysfunction first and then address what really happened to you.
> 
> As many of you know our first child was an accident. Today she is a terrific 23 year old, back then she was a mortifyingly embarrassing pregnancy to my very catholic wife.
> 
> Back then there was no internet and no information about shlt tests and alpha/beta traits.
> 
> So I will simply describe what happened and hope that you will all understand that I did what I did reflexively and without conscious thought.
> 
> The good:
> Mrs. MEM twice tried to engage in transactional sex with me. On both occasions she wanted something specific that I had already declined to agree to. She realized how much I loved having sex with her and so twice she started the process and then stopped and askd to discuss "X". And both times I responded with a classic and 'hard wired' alpha pattern. Totally calm:
> - started to get dressed and said
> - oh, you want to discuss that, let's get dressed and talk about it
> 
> Both times she dropped he request and fvcked my brains out.
> 
> ----------
> Continuing to initiate in the face of a high rejection rate comes across as selfish or weak/desperate and is a huge turn off.


So stop initiating ? I'm confused as to the last line. Everything I've read says " plow " through it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> Care to clarify here?? :scratchhead:
> 
> Do you mean spanking . . . or something else altogether?


not spanking.

more consideration of 3rd input and oral stimulation in the backside. she wasnt really into that.


----------



## MisterG

BostonBruins32 said:


> So stop initiating ? I'm confused as to the last line. Everything I've read says " plow " through it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't want to speak for MEM or anyone else, but I think his post is consistent with what others have been saying, and I agree with him completely. 

Continue to initiate, but do it on your own terms. If she tries to barter for sex (e.g., agrees to sex if you agree to do something for her), walk away from it. You only want sex from her if it's freely given. If sex is part of a quid pro quo, you don't want it.

For example, jump in the shower with her sometimes. If she shoots you down (or puts conditions on sex), continue chatting like it's no big deal (even if you're dying inside - this takes practice), finish your shower, and get out. Don't get mad, don't get pissy, don't beg, don't look back. And later, try again (don't get discouraged). This can be really difficult for a while, but in the end you'll be much better off. 

That doesn't mean that you refuse to do things for her. We all make some sacrifices for our partners. It's part of the give and take of a relationship. You do a lot of things for someone you love. But not as a condition for sex. Don't let her ***** whip you. Don't let her control you and the relationship with sex. 

Also, you should not do things for her expecting or hoping that she'll give you sex because of what you did (a covert contract for sex). That just creates resentment because she did not read your mind. When you do things for her, do them for the right reason and not because you want something in return.

I think that if you do this (and stick to it) and it starts to sink in with your wife, she'll eventually start dropping the conditions and giving you sex because she wants to.


----------



## MisterG

MisterG said:


> I don't want to speak for MEM or anyone else, but I think his post is consistent with what others have been saying, and I agree with him completely.
> 
> Continue to initiate, but do it on your own terms. If she tries to barter for sex (e.g., agrees to sex if you agree to do something for her), walk away from it. You only want sex from her if it's freely given. If sex is part of a quid pro quo, you don't want it.
> 
> For example, jump in the shower with her sometimes. If she shoots you down (or puts conditions on sex), continue chatting like it's no big deal (even if you're dying inside - this takes practice), finish your shower, and get out. Don't get mad, don't get pissy, don't beg, don't look back. And later try again (don't get discouraged). This can be really difficult for a while, but in the end you'll be much better off.
> 
> That doesn't mean that you refuse to do things for her. We all make some sacrifices for our partners. It's part of the give and take of a relationship. You do a lot of things for someone you love. But not as a condition for sex. But don't let her ***** whip you. Don't let her control you and the relationship with sex.
> 
> Also, you should not do things for her expecting or hoping that she'll give you sex because of what you did (a covert contract for sex). That just creates resentment because she did not read your mind and give you sex in exchange for what you did. If you're going to do things for her, do them for the right reason and not because you want something in return.
> 
> I think that if you do this (and stick to it) and it starts to sink in with your wife, she'll eventually start dropping the conditions and giving you sex because she wants to.


As a follow-up, keeping your cool is really important when you get rejected. Try a little bit of humor to mask your frustration and to maintain a flirty or ****y attitude. For example, if she turns you down in the shower, say OK and then intentionally drop the soap and, with a big grin, ask her to pick it up for you. You just need a little bit of humor to take the edge off of a tense situation. And then go about your business like it doesn't bother you at all. 

In my marriage, we'd have a minor fight and it would result in lingering tension for days. As a result, my wife and I were always on edge waiting for something to go wrong. It's hard to have fun when you're living like that. I think it really helped my wife to relax when she saw (or at least believed) that I was not bothered by sexual rejection or other little things that went wrong. I just shrugged it off (or made a little joke about it) and went about my business. Once she relaxed, it became easier for her to want to have sex with me.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MisterG said:


> I don't want to speak for MEM or anyone else, but I think his post is consistent with what others have been saying, and I agree with him completely.
> 
> Continue to initiate, but do it on your own terms. If she tries to barter for sex (e.g., agrees to sex if you agree to do something for her), walk away from it. You only want sex from her if it's freely given. If sex is part of a quid pro quo, you don't want it.
> 
> For example, jump in the shower with her sometimes. If she shoots you down (or puts conditions on sex), continue chatting like it's no big deal (even if you're dying inside - this takes practice), finish your shower, and get out. Don't get mad, don't get pissy, don't beg, don't look back. And later try again (don't get discouraged). This can be really difficult for a while, but in the end you'll be much better off.
> 
> That doesn't mean that you refuse to do things for her. We all make some sacrifices for our partners. It's part of the give and take of a relationship. You do a lot of things for someone you love. But not as a condition for sex. But don't let her ***** whip you. Don't let her control you and the relationship with sex.
> 
> Also, you should not do things for her expecting or hoping that she'll give you sex because of what you did (a covert contract for sex). That just creates resentment because she did not read your mind and give you sex in exchange for what you did. If you're going to do things for her, do them for the right reason and not because you want something in return.
> 
> I think that if you do this (and stick to it) and it starts to sink in with your wife, she'll eventually start dropping the conditions and giving you sex because she wants to.


One thing I don't think she does is barter or trade sex for things. Never really a sign of it. 

So I'm not really worried about that. 

Strange yesterday, she was in good spirits after work(unusual) and after our tough talk the night before. Typically she is stressed out or annoyed after a 9 hour day. I am not sure if I am beta or not, but I beat her home so I started dinner. It was 630 and our daughter was complaining about being hungry so i just put something together. I also made sure the house was somewhat under control before she got home. Meaning there wasnt **** thrown every where and or all of our daughters toys out in the kitchen. The idea here wasnt really to kiss her @ss..but more to just set a structured peaceful house. This coudl be beta or alpha. I thought it was alpha ish because I didnt ask her what she wanted for dinner or what time she was coming home. I just made what I thought worked and that was that. As far as setting the peace in the house, I feel like if she comes home and the place is trashed and out of control, she may think I cant handle myself and our daughter. *Was this alpha? or do you think this was beta (do you think i was being a wuss?)?*

Anyways, she came home and was in real good spirits from minute one. I didnt puppy dog her. I just continued doing some things I was doing, and after dinner ran out to run some errands. She was in very good spirits, despite a head cold, all night. Initiating hugs, kisses, and going to bed at same time as me. I played it cool and did my own thing for much of the night. There is NO doubt that she does better when remain somewhat independent and or dont puppy dog.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> One thing I don't think she does is barter or trade sex for things. Never really a sign of it.
> 
> So I'm not really worried about that.
> 
> Strange yesterday, she was in good spirits after work(unusual) and after our tough talk the night before. Typically she is stressed out or annoyed after a 9 hour day. I am not sure if I am beta or not, but I beat her home so I started dinner. It was 630 and our daughter was complaining about being hungry so i just put something together. I also made sure the house was somewhat under control before she got home. Meaning there wasnt **** thrown every where and or all of our daughters toys out in the kitchen. The idea here wasnt really to kiss her @ss..but more to just set a structured peaceful house. This coudl be beta or alpha. I thought it was alpha ish because I didnt ask her what she wanted for dinner or what time she was coming home. I just made what I thought worked and that was that. As far as setting the peace in the house, I feel like if she comes home and the place is trashed and out of control, she may think I cant handle myself and our daughter. *Was this alpha? or do you think this was beta (do you think i was being a wuss?)?*
> 
> Anyways, she came home and was in real good spirits from minute one. I didnt puppy dog her. I just continued doing some things I was doing, and after dinner ran out to run some errands. She was in very good spirits, despite a head cold, all night.


People are in good spirits when they come to a just made up by the maid in their hotel room too. Just sayin.

If that making the place livable matches her indifference to your obvious concerns then thats probably the right track to take.

Otherwise its gaming her if you didn't really want to do it and had a motive. I think you were trying to make up for the night before which reinforces in her that you feel you were wrong... were you? Or has she been wrong?

I think all of us spouses when in situations that are "unacceptable" (not saying OP's is yet) need to look and re-asses at what is acceptable for YOU. Not your spouse...they don't trump your needs.

Personally I do what is best for me and our two teenage boys... versus what my wife would like me to do or what standard she wants the house to be at... I am perfectly OK with the standard dropping to reflect the complete lack of effort she puts into resolving our sex life . I can live in less than ideal conditions just fine so can our boys. Her not so much and makes it interesting.

You might say I'm gaming my wife, I would counter with I am matching effort on a key need she has.
She is somewhat of a perfectionist which I catered to early in our marriage now she can see the messes she herself makes. I take care of my stuff and to a point the boys but leave all of her stuff completely untouched.

When she complains I agree. I can understand why you are upset...and do nothing about it.

I think two rules come into play and you have to find a balance and what works best for you long term....

1. You usually get more with honey than vinegar <--tried failed doesn't work on her
2. People change WHEN THEY HAVE TO. <-pending default stance now

I think both are equally valid yet certain people are preconditioned to respond to only one of them more strongly.

And you know what my wife is in "good spirits" too 99% even with me not batting an eye for her specific needs. There are changes in her all positive yet its a long road.


----------



## BostonBruins32

and by the way.. MMSL touts masculinity and alpha.

I wonder if cooking is seen by her or women as beta. I love cooking (not baking) and I'm good at it. She seems to dig it when I roll my sleeves up and surprise her with something. Maybe I should knock this off, as it could be seen as a traditional woman's role.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> People are in good spirits when they come to a just made up by the maid hotel room too. Just sayin.
> 
> If that making the place livable matches her indifference to your obvious concerns then thats probably the right track to take.


appreciate the feedback. What would have been the right play here in your opinion?

saw yoou edited post. So I wasnt gaming her. It was 630 and my daughter and I were hungry. As for tidying up the house, maybe that is beta. But I don't like walking all over toys or stubbing my toes on Duplos in the kitchen either. I also avoid asking her if she liked the dinner or if she sees the house is clean. I just carry on my business, and like i said, 20 mins after she got home, I ran out to do errands. IE I did my own thing, not needing to hang on her because I havent seen her all day. 

Totally agree with your two options for change. Unfortunately, I think she'll change when she has to. And that makes things tougher for me. Because in my heart, I like to please people. I like to make people laugh. I like to do the little things for people etc. But in this case, it leads me to fulfilling her needs on some level and not driving any change from her. So yep, I need to change.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> and by the way.. MMSL touts masculinity and alpha.
> 
> I wonder if cooking is seen by her or women as beta. I love cooking (not baking) and I'm good at it. She seems to dig it when I roll my sleeves up and surprise her with something. Maybe I should knock this off, as it could be seen as a traditional woman's role.


IME I really hated and loathed my H and my M when he considered women's work "beneath him". It made me feel sooooooooo disrespected. Remember the core unmet needs of a CSAS- respect and protection.

I LOVE that he has modified his misogyny somewhat (Not all the way- he still throws Bible verses about women being quiet and submitting @. But I don't go to church and don't care any more @ that guilt trip. The submissive wife is gone forever and a feminist heretic has taken her place )

I LOVE him actually doing something like cooking a meal, or especially teamwork- working TOGETHER in the kitchen. It is so radical.

But he was what MMSL would call an alpha-a$$ho1e


----------



## MEM2020

*Rejection cycle*

Boston,
You need to break the rejection dynamic. But most of that work needs to happen outside the bedroom. 

If you don't mind a few questions:
1. How comfortable are you now in doing what you believe is 'right', regardless how your wife might react to it? Some major examples of that are:
- Are you still seeing the marriage counselor by yourself? 
- Have you stopped telling your wife how 'hot' she looks even when she dresses up for a date?
- Have you changed your date dynamic from 'dinner/movie' bonding type stuff to a dopamine driven model? 
2. In terms of discretionary spending, do you two spend about the same amount of money on yourselves? 
3. How often are you the one who starts conversations about 'the relationship'? How often does she? 
4. Have you tried any of that 'playful conflict' stuff? If not, why? 





BostonBruins32 said:


> So stop initiating ? I'm confused as to the last line. Everything I've read says " plow " through it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterG

BostonBruins32 said:


> and by the way.. MMSL touts masculinity and alpha.
> 
> I wonder if cooking is seen by her or women as beta. I love cooking (not baking) and I'm good at it. She seems to dig it when I roll my sleeves up and surprise her with something. Maybe I should knock this off, as it could be seen as a traditional woman's role.


I think it depends on your attitude. If you scurry around the kitchen because you're trying to appease her, it's beta. If you're cooking because you want to cook, and you do what you want to do (grunt, grunt), then it's alpha.

Cooking, cleaning, and child care can also be alpha because things need to get done, and you are a man that gets things done (grunt again). You are not her maid or servant, it is your house and your child, and she is your wife, and you are taking care of your own. Of course, there also needs to be balance. Both she and you need to make a fair contribution, so if you pick up some extra tasks from time to time, she needs to do the same, and vice versa.

In our house, the roles change all the time. Things need to get done and we adjust so that they (at least mostly) get done. For example, I am not a good cook, but sometime I need to cook and sometimes I want to cook (I have a few "specialties" that a monkey could make). Whether I'm doing it out of necessity or because I want to, I own the kitchen: I kick my wife out of MY kitchen, I do things MY way, and I serve the food with a smile and hope no one notices my mistakes.


----------



## usmarriedguy

That was alpha not beta. That was taking charge of the situation and not waiting for the master to come home and give you direction. 

Sorry, but I am still not buying into this spanky nonsense. It is common for women to like powerful men. Most women do not want to be spanked but it seems to be more common in the more sexual women. If your wife does not read ravishment porn than I think you can cross that off your list.

Women like powerful men:
"Power is what makes a male a man. When attributed to men they are viewed as masculine: “confidence, assertiveness, self-mastery, a commanding presence and indomitability”."


----------



## Blonde

I'd take spanky off the agenda because of the CSA. She could have triggers. For me, "molesting" was a serious trigger! (Grabbing body parts in a non-sexual context like when I was on a ladder or doing dishes. Or cornering me in a closet. OMG I became like a cornered wild animal!)


----------



## BostonBruins32

*Re: Rejection cycle*



MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> You need to break the rejection dynamic. But most of that work needs to happen outside the bedroom.
> 
> If you don't mind a few questions:
> 1. How comfortable are you now in doing what you believe is 'right', regardless how your wife might react to it? Some major examples of that are:
> - Are you still seeing the marriage counselor by yourself? *I am not right now. This is something I have debated, but I have to define what I'm looking for first.*
> - Have you stopped telling your wife how 'hot' she looks even when she dresses up for a date? *I have very very much slowed down on this. I used to be very clear about how hot i thought she was, but now I am far quieter.*
> - Have you changed your date dynamic from 'dinner/movie' bonding type stuff to a dopamine driven model? *I have very much hit the breaks on the date thing. To be honest, I havent felt like going out on a date with her in a while. That said, I have been gogoling ideas for more active dates to get the juices flowing*
> 2. In terms of discretionary spending, do you two spend about the same amount of money on yourselves? *Yes. and I dont tell her what i buy and I dont ask what she buys. She has part time job now, so she has her own money to do her thing. To be honest, she doesnt buy much at all. The other day she went to salvation army to get some stuff for our daughter and got some stuff for herself. We definately arent ina financial situation where she needs to do that, but thats part of her upbringing. She has NEVER been one to buy coach bags or $450 shoes. *
> 3. How often are you the one who starts conversations about 'the relationship'? How often does she? *It is usually me. She almost never does. *
> 4. Have you tried any of that 'playful conflict' stuff? If not, why?*not sure what exactly this is. But I joke with her and or tease her which I think she likes. Also if we're doing something (house project), she may ask if I could get a certain tool. I now always say "I can't do that unless you say please" with a half smile. Again, she will smile and then respond with a please. I've done a very good job at calling her out on snippy responses or anything i deem rude.*


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> One thing I don't think she does is barter or trade sex for things. Never really a sign of it.
> 
> So I'm not really worried about that.
> 
> Strange yesterday, she was in good spirits after work(unusual) and after our tough talk the night before. Typically she is stressed out or annoyed after a 9 hour day. I am not sure if I am beta or not, but I beat her home so I started dinner. It was 630 and our daughter was complaining about being hungry so i just put something together. I also made sure the house was somewhat under control before she got home. Meaning there wasnt **** thrown every where and or all of our daughters toys out in the kitchen. The idea here wasnt really to kiss her @ss..but more to just set a structured peaceful house. This coudl be beta or alpha. I thought it was alpha ish because I didnt ask her what she wanted for dinner or what time she was coming home. I just made what I thought worked and that was that. As far as setting the peace in the house, I feel like if she comes home and the place is trashed and out of control, she may think I cant handle myself and our daughter. *Was this alpha? or do you think this was beta (do you think i was being a wuss?)?*
> 
> Anyways, she came home and was in real good spirits from minute one. I didnt puppy dog her. I just continued doing some things I was doing, and after dinner ran out to run some errands. She was in very good spirits, despite a head cold, all night. Initiating hugs, kisses, and going to bed at same time as me. I played it cool and did my own thing for much of the night. There is NO doubt that she does better when remain somewhat independent and or dont puppy dog.


No, not beta at all. You acted like a competent head of household--very alpha. If you had done all that as a "covert contract" for sex later, then it would be a different story. You assessed, you executed, and you did it with a smile on your face. It demonstrates independence and dominance and self control, and it showed you can continue to contribute as a father and a member of the household, even if you're not happy with some other areas of the relationship (the ability to compartmentalize). Nothing unsexy there AT ALL.


----------



## MEM2020

*Rejection pattern*

Boston,
Sorry for the duplication in questions, my browser crashed earlier and I thought the prior post was lost. 


Everything below was just good leadership. It only becomes 'bad beta' when you deliberately steer the conversation in a way that is 'approval seeking'. 

You should NOT keep initiating in the face of a 90 percent rejection rate. You need to break the rejection dynamic. It is TOXIC to you and the marriage to keep doing something that feels increasingly awful while pretending it doesn't. 

What are you doing to create a dopamine dynamic with your W?

I truly believe the whole issue lies there because her loss of desire correlated so closely to the rising level of relationship stability. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> One thing I don't think she does is barter or trade sex for things. Never really a sign of it.
> 
> So I'm not really worried about that.
> 
> Strange yesterday, she was in good spirits after work(unusual) and after our tough talk the night before. Typically she is stressed out or annoyed after a 9 hour day. I am not sure if I am beta or not, but I beat her home so I started dinner. It was 630 and our daughter was complaining about being hungry so i just put something together. I also made sure the house was somewhat under control before she got home. Meaning there wasnt **** thrown every where and or all of our daughters toys out in the kitchen. The idea here wasnt really to kiss her @ss..but more to just set a structured peaceful house. This coudl be beta or alpha. I thought it was alpha ish because I didnt ask her what she wanted for dinner or what time she was coming home. I just made what I thought worked and that was that. As far as setting the peace in the house, I feel like if she comes home and the place is trashed and out of control, she may think I cant handle myself and our daughter. *Was this alpha? or do you think this was beta (do you think i was being a wuss?)?*
> 
> Anyways, she came home and was in real good spirits from minute one. I didnt puppy dog her. I just continued doing some things I was doing, and after dinner ran out to run some errands. She was in very good spirits, despite a head cold, all night. Initiating hugs, kisses, and going to bed at same time as me. I played it cool and did my own thing for much of the night. There is NO doubt that she does better when remain somewhat independent and or dont puppy dog.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> No, not beta at all. You acted like a competent head of household--very alpha. If you had done all that as a "covert contract" for sex later, then it would be a different story. You assessed, you executed, and you did it with a smile on your face. It demonstrates independence and dominance and self control, and it showed you can continue to contribute as a father and a member of the household, even if you're not happy with some other areas of the relationship (the ability to compartmentalize). Nothing unsexy there AT ALL.


well that makes me feel good then. I figured the more beta move would be to wait for her to get home and ask what we should do for dinner etc.

Another question, because I'm a human male:
If a wife is LD for whatever reason, and she clearly knows this is hurting her husband, would masturbation and or porn make her mad? My wife never asks about it, but I always wondered what she would think if she knew that I take care of myself because I dont get that at home. She can't be mad right? I'm not cheating and she is opting not to fill a need for me. What do you think?


----------



## GettingIt_2

usmarriedguy said:


> That was alpha not beta. That was taking charge of the situation and not waiting for the master to come home and give you direction.
> 
> Sorry, but I am still not buying into this spanky nonsense. It is common for women to like powerful men. Most women do not want to be spanked but it seems to be more common in the more sexual women. If your wife does not read ravishment porn than I think you can cross that off your list.
> 
> Women like powerful men:
> "Power is what makes a male a man. When attributed to men they are viewed as masculine: “confidence, assertiveness, self-mastery, a commanding presence and indomitability”."


Agree that spanky is not for every woman, and with CSA I'm sure the waters become even more troubled. 

But I didn't think it was for me, either, until my husband continued to rehabilitate his alpha in the months after our reconciliation. If you think it's a risk, or could lead to disaster, of course don't try it. But watch her for signs of change if and when you get things back to the sexual frequency and quality that you are happy with. The more dominant my husband shows he can be, the more dominance I want from him. Women are not homogeneous; "dominant" behavior wants and expectations will vary with the individual. BB's wife might have a lower need than I do in that area.


----------



## BostonBruins32

*Re: Rejection pattern*



MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> Sorry for the duplication in questions, my browser crashed earlier and I thought the prior post was lost.
> 
> 
> Everything below was just good leadership. It only becomes 'bad beta' when you deliberately steer the conversation in a way that is 'approval seeking'.
> 
> You should NOT keep initiating in the face of a 90 percent rejection rate. You need to break the rejection dynamic. It is TOXIC to you and the marriage to keep doing something that feels increasingly awful while pretending it doesn't.
> 
> What are you doing to create a dopamine dynamic with your W?*not much right now. we did some home improvements together, which really sets a nice mood. not sure if this is what you mean but it was labor intensive and had both of us sweating. And the outcome was awesome. It wasnt competitive though. So i guess I havent really nailed down dopamine stuff with her yet.*
> 
> I truly believe the whole issue lies there because her loss of desire correlated so closely to the rising level of relationship stability.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> Agree that spanky is not for every woman, and with CSA I'm sure the waters become even more troubled.
> 
> But I didn't think it was for me, either, until my husband continued to rehabilitate his alpha in the months after our reconciliation. If you think it's a risk, or could lead to disaster, of course don't try it. But watch her for signs of change if and when you get things back to the sexual frequency and quality that you are happy with. The more dominant my husband shows he can be, the more dominance I want from him. Women are not homogeneous; "dominant" behavior wants and expectations will vary with the individual. BB's wife might have a lower need than I do in that area.


to put the spannking thing to bed: I'm not going to spank her today or tomorrow. We can revisit this in 6 months or a year. But im not doing it now. 

I'll try different sexual positions, locations, approaches.. but not spanking. I am not comfortable crossing my fingers that shes into that.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> well that makes me feel good then. I figured the more beta move would be to wait for her to get home and ask what we should do for dinner etc.
> 
> Another question, because I'm a human male:
> If a wife is LD for whatever reason, and she clearly knows this is hurting her husband, would masturbation and or porn make her mad? My wife never asks about it, but I always wondered what she would think if she knew that I take care of myself because I dont get that at home. She can't be mad right? I'm not cheating and she is opting not to fill a need for me. What do you think?


Sigh. You are not going to like this answer. But here goes. 

It bothered me. I might have expressed that once or twice, but my h wasn't having it, so I kept it to myself after that. 

*Deep breath.* It made me feel rejected. (Ducking and running now.)


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> Sigh. You are not going to like this answer. But here goes.
> 
> It bothered me. I might have expressed that once or twice, but my h wasn't having it, so I kept it to myself after that.
> 
> *Deep breath.* It made me feel rejected. (Ducking and running now.)


cue the "what about you rejecting him for 10 years" haha.

at least thats an honest assessment. I probably wouldnt tell her what porn i look at, just that i have before to get by. Unless we really think she would buy the "i think about you when i masturbate" ...


----------



## usmarriedguy

BostonBruins32 said:


> well that makes me feel good then. I figured the more beta move would be to wait for her to get home and ask what we should do for dinner etc.
> 
> Another question, because I'm a human male:
> If a wife is LD for whatever reason, and she clearly knows this is hurting her husband, would masturbation and or porn make her mad? My wife never asks about it, but I always wondered what she would think if she knew that I take care of myself because I dont get that at home. She can't be mad right? I'm not cheating and she is opting not to fill a need for me. What do you think?


I have seen responses from a few LD women who not only do not want to have enough sex to satisfy their HD spouse but are also against them using porn. 

My wife was against it early on and I told her that I would be happy to drop it if she would step up to the plate. -She decided it was not so bad after all.


----------



## treyvion

usmarriedguy said:


> I have seen responses from a few LD women who not only do not want to have enough sex to satisfy their HD spouse but are also against them using porn.
> 
> My wife was against it early on and I told her that I would be happy to drop it if she would step up to the plate. -She decided it was not so bad after all.


Would you have been happy to completely drop porn if she stepped to the plate?


----------



## BostonBruins32

treyvion said:


> Would you have been happy to completely drop porn if she stepped to the plate?


I bet i can answer this. hell yes.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Rejection cycle*

The MC knows both you and your wife. You need to keep seeing her and you should neither emphasize nor conceal that from your wife. 

STOP
1. initiating conversations about the state of your marriage. It's bad, your wife knows it's bad. And she knows why. So stop talking about 'the marriage' and simply deal with individual situations as they happen. 
2. with any sexual compliments or appearance based compliments
3. any chasing behavior including texting. 

Try to ease back on the 'I love you' stuff. When you leave the house in the morning use: see you tonight
When you leave the house in the evening: see you later

Talk is cheap. And this constant stream of 'I love you' is suppressing her dopamine response.


----------



## usmarriedguy

treyvion said:


> Would you have been happy to completely drop porn if she stepped to the plate?


Hell yes. 

I explained to her that she was far better than the best porn star even if she does not want to do any of their things. You just can't beat the real thing with the woman you love.

P.S. 
Funny -I actually wrote that before I read Boston's post under it.


----------



## GettingIt_2

usmarriedguy said:


> I have seen responses from a few LD women who not only do not want to have enough sex to satisfy their HD spouse but are also against them using porn.
> 
> My wife was against it early on and I told her that I would be happy to drop it if she would step up to the plate. -She decided it was not so bad after all.



I'll dig my hole even deeper and disclose that I used porn. I masturbated. 

I don't know guys, I think I saw his turning to porn as a turning away from me. He had stopped initiating. I couldn't initiate. I knew he wanted sex, but here he was sort of just giving up. 

He was so (rightfully) worn down by rejection that he started to read rejection into every little thing I said or did. I mentioned, in the morning, that I had a busy day, what he heard was, "So don't even try getting it on tonight." If I disciplined one of the kids, he thought, "Well, she's in a bad mood. I'm out of luck tonight." If I said I was going to read in bed after we got the kids settled, he heard, "I'll be asleep when you get there, so don't bother." 

It goes on and on. No, I don't blame him. But it does become a self-fulfilling prophesy after awhile. I wanted him and needed him to push through some of my (real or perceived) resistance. My desire had turned from HD to very responsive during those years. His only chance was to turn me on physically with touch, but braving the teeth to get there was just too much for him after awhile. 

In my experience, I wished my H hadn't stopped initiating. I wish he'd have continued to try, just like MisterG recommends. But I wonder if it's just too, too much to ask to keep jumping in the fire after being burned so many times.


----------



## BostonBruins32

*Re: Rejection cycle*



MEM11363 said:


> The MC knows both you and your wife. You need to keep seeing her and you should neither emphasize nor conceal that from your wife.
> 
> STOP
> 1. initiating conversations about the state of your marriage. It's bad, your wife knows it's bad. And she knows why. So stop talking about 'the marriage' and simply deal with individual situations as they happen. *trying trying. need to try better. but you are right.*
> 2. with any sexual compliments or appearance based compliments *yes sir. I do this at about 10% the rate i used to. i could kill that last 10%.*
> 3. any chasing behavior including texting. *trying trying. you guys gave me good insight on covert contracts. done.*
> 
> Try to ease back on the 'I love you' stuff. When you leave the house in the morning use: see you tonight
> When you leave the house in the evening: see you later *I do exactly this and have beeen for a while. I say "ill be back, see you"*
> 
> Talk is cheap. And this constant stream of 'I love you' is suppressing her dopamine response.*yes sir. totally agree. If I give her a hug or kiss randomly, i dont say anything. She says 90% of the I love yous first. and lately she kisses or hugs 90% of the time first.*


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> I'll dig my hole even deeper and disclose that I used porn. I masturbated.
> 
> I don't know guys, I think I saw his turning to porn as a turning away from me. He had stopped initiating. I couldn't initiate. I knew he wanted sex, but here he was sort of just giving up.
> 
> He was so (rightfully) worn down by rejection that he started to read rejection into every little thing I said or did. I mentioned, in the morning, that I had a busy day, what he heard was, "So don't even try getting it on tonight." If I disciplined one of the kids, he thought, "Well, she's in a bad mood. I'm out of luck tonight." If I said I was going to read in bed after we got the kids settled, he heard, "I'll be asleep when you get there, so don't bother."
> 
> It goes on and on. No, I don't blame him. But it does become a self-fulfilling prophesy after awhile. I wanted him and needed him to push through some of my (real or perceived) resistance. My desire had turned from HD to very responsive during those years. His only chance was to turn me on physically with touch, but braving the teeth to get there was just too much for him after awhile.
> 
> In my experience, I wished my H hadn't stopped initiating. I wish he'd have continued to try, just like MisterG recommends. But I wonder if it's just too, too much to ask to keep jumping in the fire after being burned so many times.


funny you mention reading into things.

I always think the "im tired" on the way home from date or "my stomach feels funny" when sitting on the couch close to bed time was a warning not to try tonight. The reason I think this is because we have gone on dates and she'd be "tired" in the car and quiet. Then when we got home at 1130, id get myself set up for bed, and shed go sit on the couch and turn the TV on and stay up till 1245. So much for being tired. Its ok to be honest here Gettingit, those are excuses and defenses against initiation. I know it and my wife knows it.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> cue the "what about you rejecting him for 10 years" haha.
> 
> at least thats an honest assessment. I probably wouldnt tell her what porn i look at, just that i have before to get by. Unless we really think she would buy the "i think about you when i masturbate" ...


Again how is having great sex twice a month for those ten years ...rejecting?


----------



## Blonde

usmarriedguy said:


> I have seen responses from a few LD women who not only do not want to have enough sex to satisfy their HD spouse but are also against them using porn.


So, I realize this is not BB but "enough sex to satisfy" my H could be 10 times a day. When he was hot and heavy into porn, he would jerk off that many times.

For a long time, he didn't believe in jerking off (religious reasons) and I wished he did because he would do things like expect sex after a miscarriage when I was in pain, bleeding, and on doctor ordered pelvic rest  Talk about feeling unprotected and disrespected...

Anyway, porn use was not a trigger for ME. I considered it a sin, but it was his sin and no reflection on me.

I LOVE MMSL on porn though, just love it! My 26 yos reads MMSL and is preaching to the 13 and 11yo @ http://yourbrainonporn.com/ which he got there. 

I sometimes link to the post http://marriedmansexlife.com/2013/08/high-fructose-porn-syrup/. Once your wife is having sex with you at least once a week, I think you should stop the porn.

TBH, I could tell when H had been looking at porn. The way he approached me was very lustful and I could feel it (and didn't like it). Eventually, he had a spell of impotence for a few weeks where he could jerk off to porn but couldn't have sex with me. It scared him and he gave it up cold turkey. He figured God was going to follow through on "if your _______ causes you to sin, CUT IT OFF" :circle:


----------



## naiveonedave

twice per month is almost a sexless marraiage. 8x per month is a reasonable goal, more is better


----------



## Trying2figureitout

naiveonedave said:


> twice per month is almost a sexless marraiage. 8x per month is a reasonable goal, more is better


Like* almost* a nuclear strike or *almost* pregnant... is it or not?

I would say GettingIt had basically a well within range sexual marriage with fights and now has more of a sexual marriage without as many fights not some MIRACLE cure as seems to be portrayed here. Especially over a ten year window to make the fights go away and find a more equal balance toward her husbands level of sexual desire.

More is not better.

Quality over quantity take a poll.


----------



## MEM2020

*Work day*

Boston,
How often do you two talk/text each other during the day?

One reason my wife and I still have real passion for each other in year 25 is that we have blocks of time during which we don't interact. On a normal workday we don't call/text at all during the day. 

I am NOT saying that more frequent touch points are harmful. But I am saying this: One reason your wife takes you for granted is because your constant presence / contact facilitates this. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> I bet i can answer this. hell yes.


----------



## BostonBruins32

*Re: Work day*



MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> How often do you two talk/text each other during the day? *We text or call infrequently. She typically will call me probably every other day, same with text. Usually with some sort of plan or something she wants to discuss "I wanted to get some paint, should I buy benjamin moore or do you think the HD brand is ok" ..those kind of questions . Other than that we dont chat all day. I could go either way on this one, but i'm fine as is. *
> 
> One reason my wife and I still have real passion for each other in year 25 is that we have blocks of time during which we don't interact. On a normal workday we don't call/text at all during the day.
> 
> I am NOT saying that more frequent touch points are harmful. But I am saying this: One reason your wife takes you for granted is because your constant presence / contact facilitates this.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Its ok to be honest here Gettingit, those are excuses and defenses against initiation. I know it and my wife knows it.


Sometimes yes and sometimes no. I openly admit that sometimes I'd feel absolute dread that he'd initiate and would do things to shoot him down. 

But I also am being completely honest about the disappointment and frustration I would feel when lying beside him, wanting him to touch me so bad, and knowing that he was lying there awake, wanting to touch me. But he just couldn't, and I just couldn't. 

We were painted into one hell of a corner.


----------



## MEM2020

*Preemptive rejections*

Boston,
Your read on these situations is exactly right. 

And some amount of this behavior is ok as part of a healthy sex life. Not as a means to prevent initiation on date nights etc. 

And not as part of an overall strategy to avoid sex. 







BostonBruins32 said:


> funny you mention reading into things.
> 
> I always think the "im tired" on the way home from date or "my stomach feels funny" when sitting on the couch close to bed time was a warning not to try tonight. The reason I think this is because we have gone on dates and she'd be "tired" in the car and quiet. Then when we got home at 1130, id get myself set up for bed, and shed go sit on the couch and turn the TV on and stay up till 1245. So much for being tired. Its ok to be honest here Gettingit, those are excuses and defenses against initiation. I know it and my wife knows it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> Sometimes yes and sometimes no. I openly admit that sometimes I'd feel absolute dread that he'd initiate and would do things to shoot him down.
> 
> But I also am being completely honest about the disappointment and frustration I would feel when lying beside him, wanting him to touch me so bad, and knowing that he was lying there awake, wanting to touch me. But he just couldn't, and I just couldn't.
> 
> We were painted into one hell of a corner.


Interesting. I've lied awake a billion times wishing I could initiate with success. I don't think shes ever wanted me to initiate when I didnt. I have literally tried to rub her back or cuddle and I'd get "GOODNIGHT!" .. "NOT NOW" .. haha... one thing I notice is that if I "take care of myself" in the evening, I fall asleep much better because my sexual interest has died down, which means less stress about wishing tonight was the night.


----------



## BostonBruins32

*Re: Preemptive rejections*



MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> Your read on these situations is exactly right.
> 
> And some amount of this behavior is ok as part of a healthy sex life. Not as a means to prevent initiation on date nights etc.
> 
> And not as part of an overall strategy to avoid sex.


No matter what anyone tells me I am more than certain it was her warning to not come near me tonight.

Because there are too many contradictions:


tired on way home, but stays up extra hour


headache 5 nights a week? come on now


sick in the evening only? come on now


----------



## usmarriedguy

While I agree that many women have more responsive desire than initial desire, being more persistent will not turn an LD into an HD. 

Initiating too much when you know perfectly well that you have no chance is not a good way to go because it messes with your self-esteem. Also it should not be a test of her. 

I do not see anything wrong with flirting with her. I disagree that you need to be cold or that there needs to be emotional equity. 

That does not mean that you do not need to be firm though or be the puppy dog. Women like men to be caring and sensitive but not visibly, because that is feminine. 

I suppose you can run a test and see if there is any correlation between the frequency you ask and the frequency you have quality sex.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Trying2figureitout said:


> I would say GettingIt had basically a well within range sexual marriage with fights and now has more of a sexual marriage without as many fights not some MIRACLE cure as seems to be portrayed here. Especially over a ten year window to make the fights go away and find a more equal balance toward her husbands level of sexual desire.
> 
> More is not better.
> 
> Quality over quantity take a poll.


Ah, but the issue isn't what *you* think of the marriage or the sex, is it? You might have been perfectly content, yes. You might have fixed it another way, yes. 

All we can do is share our stories and our observations. The OP has to figure out for himself what might apply and what might work for him.


----------



## Blonde

GettingIt said:


> It goes on and on. No, I don't blame him. But it does become a self-fulfilling prophesy after awhile. I wanted him and needed him to push through some of my (real or perceived) resistance. My desire had turned from HD to very responsive during those years. His only chance was to turn me on physically with touch, but braving the teeth to get there was just too much for him after awhile.


And this is why I think Athol's advice on porn is so brilliant and right on. Porn is easy, takes no effort, just flip the switch and it's on, and when you're done, flip the switch and it's off. 

If a man is directing his sexual energy toward porn then he isn't directing it toward his wife. A REAL woman takes effort but the sex is not self centered and one dimensional.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Interesting. I've lied awake a billion times wishing I could initiate with success. I don't think shes ever wanted me to initiate when I didnt. I have literally tried to rub her back or cuddle and I'd get "GOODNIGHT!" .. "NOT NOW" .. haha... one thing I notice is that if I "take care of myself" in the evening, I fall asleep much better because my sexual interest has died down, which means less stress about wishing tonight was the night.


I wish I could talk to your wife. 

Just wondering what her take on all this is. It's not that I don't believe you are being completely honest, or that you are working this as hard as you know how. But I do think I would "hear" her differently than you, or most men, would. 

Ugh. This is stressing me out.


----------



## naiveonedave

I disagree, the goal for BB is to have more and then work on better. Getting more will lead to better, imo.

MMSL is what has worked for me. and 2x/month for years would be a D to me. HN-HN applies here as well.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I "liked" your post usmarriedguy, but this part isn't quite how I would say it... I actually see nothing feminine about caring and sensitivity when I see it in a man.

"Women like men to be caring and sensitive but not visibly, because that is feminine."

Sensitivity and caring shouldn't be confused with "spineless"...which is also neither masculine or feminine but is unattractive to everyone.


----------



## Blonde

naiveonedave said:


> twice per month is almost a sexless marraiage. 8x per month is a reasonable goal, more is better


<10 times per year is considered "sexless"



> here is what the latest research says about how often Americans are — and aren't — having sex.
> 
> Married couples say they have sex an average of 68.5 times a year. That's slightly more than once a week. — Newsweek
> 
> Married people have 6.9 more sexual encounters per year than people who have never been married. — Newsweek
> 
> 15 to 20 percent of couples have sex no more than 10 times a year, which experts define as a sexless marriage. — Newsweek [source]


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> <10 times per year is considered "sexless"


numbers dont mean much. Its all relative. if 8 times per year is desired by both partners, then thats not sexless.

its the gap that means more. One wants daily, one wants never. thats the issue.


----------



## naiveonedave

I 2x/month is closer to sexless than to the norm. And the norm is lower than what most men want. That is my point. i would be incredibly frustrated at the 2x/month rate. Not acceptable, which is what BB is saying.

We are basically agreeing (note I said almost sexless....)


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> numbers dont mean much. Its all relative. if 8 times per year is desired by both partners, then thats not sexless.
> 
> its the gap that means more. One wants daily, one wants never. thats the issue.


I'm still on the porn topic. Going from once in 45 days to once a week would be massive improvement and if you see that improvement, I think you should stop the porn and direct all your sexual energy toward your wife.

I'm pretty sure they will tell you that on MMSL too BTW


----------



## usmarriedguy

Blonde said:


> So, I realize this is not BB but "enough sex to satisfy" my H could be 10 times a day. When he was hot and heavy into porn, he would jerk off that many times.
> 
> For a long time, he didn't believe in jerking off (religious reasons) and I wished he did because he would do things like expect sex after a miscarriage when I was in pain, bleeding, and on doctor ordered pelvic rest  Talk about feeling unprotected and disrespected...
> 
> Anyway, porn use was not a trigger for ME. I considered it a sin, but it was his sin and no reflection on me.
> 
> I LOVE MMSL on porn though, just love it! My 26 yos reads MMSL and is preaching to the 13 and 11yo @ Your Brain On Porn | Evolution has not prepared your brain for today's Internet porn which he got there.
> 
> I sometimes link to the post High Fructose Porn Syrup | Married Man Sex Life. Once your wife is having sex with you at least once a week, I think you should stop the porn.
> 
> TBH, I could tell when H had been looking at porn. The way he approached me was very lustful and I could feel it (and didn't like it). Eventually, he had a spell of impotence for a few weeks where he could jerk off to porn but couldn't have sex with me. It scared him and he gave it up cold turkey. He figured God was going to follow through on "if your _______ causes you to sin, CUT IT OFF" :circle:



What ever is Enough to satisfy him, but that does not mean he should expect his spouse to have sex with him any time he wants.

Once a week does not cut it for me so I would not particularly care what my LD wife happened to think was sufficient for me because it is not her call to make.

It would be very inconsiderate to just expect my wife to match my sexuality. 

I would think that porn would actually decrease how much lust they have for their spouse? Certainly so in my case.


----------



## Blonde

Blonde said:


> I'm still on the porn topic. Going from once in 45 days to once a week would be massive improvement and if you see that improvement, I think you should stop the porn and direct all your sexual energy toward your wife.
> 
> I'm pretty sure they will tell you that on MMSL too BTW


Athol: Actually it’s become clear to me over the last year that *it takes very little porn at all to start guys detaching from their wives.*

High Fructose Porn Syrup | Married Man Sex Life


----------



## Trying2figureitout

GettingIt said:


> Ah, but the issue isn't what *you* think of the marriage or the sex, is it? You might have been perfectly content, yes. You might have fixed it another way, yes.
> 
> All we can do is share our stories and our observations. The OP has to figure out for himself what might apply and what might work for him.


True..but I will correct perception that your particular case was a miracle cure over ten years as seemingly is portrayed after what is a fairly normal sexlife with some animosity..... if sexless is 9 and yours is 24 thats almost 3x sexless in even the worst times.

It seems lake AnonPink and GettingIt found the light....

Roll eyes..eat grain of salt

Does not fit the mold of most sexless marriages here.
Glad your life is better but fail to see similarities to the average sexless marriage

I do appreciate the posts but not the perception of a miracle cure after ten grueling sexully deprived years


----------



## usmarriedguy

Faithful Wife said:


> I "liked" your post usmarriedguy, but this part isn't quite how I would say it... I actually see nothing feminine about caring and sensitivity when I see it in a man.
> 
> "Women like men to be caring and sensitive but not visibly, because that is feminine."
> 
> Sensitivity and caring shouldn't be confused with "spineless"...which is also neither masculine or feminine but is unattractive to everyone.


Yes I agree, I just did not state it very well.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> True..but I will correct perception that your particular case was a miracle cure over ten years as seemingly is portrayed after what is a fairly normal sexlife with some animosity..... if sexless is 9 and yours is 24 thats almost 3x sexless in even the worst times.
> 
> It seems lake AnonPink and GettingIt found the light....
> 
> Roll eyes..eat grain of salt
> 
> Does not fit the mold of most sexless marriages here.
> Glad your life is better but fail to see similarities to the average sexless marriage
> 
> I do appreciate the posts but not the perception of a miracle cure after ten grueling sexully deprived years


to me its more about stats dont lie. More marriage sexless marriagesdo not resolve or improve than the other way around. Essentially the odds are AGAINST me and other spouses in this situation. 

This is where the boundary/threshold thing has to take place. How much can you change? If you change, how long can you deal if you signif other doesnt change?

Its also curious to me that we say male must change. The husband needs to do this and do that. fix this. be mor alpha etc. With all due respect ladies, seems to me you skate away clean here. Not all the time, but at least most of the advice and threads I see on this. I have to improve and change. does she? I have changed over the years, has she? Some men look older (shocking) as they age. Newsflash, some women look older as they age too.

Very onesided issue it seems.

That said, I'll keep working on things. Its just that I hear much less about the wife changing than the husband changing.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"Its also curious to me that we say male must change."

I do not think this is true. Regardless of gender the advice is always for the person who is here because we can not expect the spouse who is not here asking for opinions to want to change.

Your wife has the upper hand in this. You either find some way to make her desire having sex with you more or leave or accept what she is offering. 

If we could simply tell her to start wanting sex more we surely would.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> to me its more about stats dont lie. More marriage sexless marriagesdo not resolve or improve than the other way around. Essentially the odds are AGAINST me and other spouses in this situation.
> 
> This is where the boundary/threshold thing has to take place. How much can you change? If you change, how long can you deal if you signif other doesnt change?
> 
> Its also curious to me that we say male must change. The husband needs to do this and do that. fix this. be mor alpha etc. With all due respect ladies, seems to me you skate away clean here. Not all the time, but at least most of the advice and threads I see on this. I have to improve and change. does she? I have changed over the years, has she? Some men look older (shocking) as they age. Newsflash, some women look older as they age too.
> 
> Very onesided issue it seems.
> 
> That said, I'll keep working on things. Its just that I hear much less about the wife changing than the husband changing.


Yes, she does need to improve and yes you do need to expect improvements. GettingIt had the light bulb go off and then her husband responded. I had the lightbulb go off and then...well he's getting there...

Bottom line, if you want change, something has to change and since you're the one here, the one unhappy and willing to seek answers and figure things out, you get to change first. No, it's not fair. It is what it is though.

Marriage is not one person working. How long you can last being the only one working? That's your decision to make. But you have made some changes and she has noticed them. This thread is only about a month old. Your wife is resistant to self examination. So it will take her a while. A few months...IDK maybe?

I'm going to list this and then find Amplexo's post which I personally think is brilliant! I'll post that next...


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> "Its also curious to me that we say male must change."
> 
> I do not think this is true. Regardless of gender the advice is always for the person who is here because we can not expect the spouse who is not here asking for opinions to want to change.
> 
> Your wife has the upper hand in this. You either find some way to make her desire having sex with you more or leave or accept what she is offering.
> 
> If we could simply tell her to start wanting sex more we surely would.


fair point. Could everyone please call my wife and ask her to change a little.


----------



## naiveonedave

mmsl teaches you that if you change for the positive, your wife will follow OR you will figure out that your needs will never be close to being met. For me, the 2nd option would ultimately lead to D. 2x/month for the ages won't cut it. that is me, you need to be you.

Also, if you apply mmsl, you will get hit on by other women. if you aren't getting enough, it will be hard for you to not stray. keep that in mind.

My story is approaching option 1. I shaped up a bit, W saw other women ineterested in me and I think, with out conscious thought, she upped her game as MMSL predicted would happen.


----------



## Anon Pink

amplexor said:


> Amplexor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any one that knows my story will recall that my wife and I were in a very bad place a few years back, hit bottom, damn near divorced but journeyed to a very long but successful recovery. We are very strong as a couple today, committed and loving.
> 
> However our sexual drives are still a mismatch. We deal with the problem better than we used to but had made little progress. I understand my wife is in menopause which has lowered her previously high-drive. With menopause has come an increase in weight lowering her self esteem. And her job is very stressful leaving her exhausted at the end of the day. I am very empathetic to her feelings on all three but there are two people in the marriage.
> 
> A few months ago we had "that talk" again and again it took a familiar path. Stress, weight, drive... With empathy and respect I told her I understood all those reasons but that quite frankly she has done nothing to try and address them and that I didn't see this ever improving much over where it was today. I told we were going to try a different path this time. "For the next 60 days, I want you to submit yourself to me when I want sexual intimacy." My wife is extremely strong willed and independent of soul. Her icie blues flashed for a moment then she took her stare off of me, thought about it and responded, "That's not an unreasonable request." Initially she found it a bit awkward ("knowing she had to") but we settled into a very good pattern. My wife does enjoy sex when we get started so she was not being "dutiful" during it. Keep in mind, I am in my mid 50s so I'm not swinging wood five times a day any more. 2 or 3 times a week is more than sufficient for me. It put us in a good rhythm that has continued on passed the initial period. She has also begun to work out regularly and watching her diet more closely. When we went though our R one of the things we did was rebuild the foundation of the relationship and two areas we became much more successful at then we had been previously were communication and empathy. Both had a strong part in helping us improve this area of the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I posted this in July 2012. To this day, we are still in a mode that rejection is very rare. After 20 plus years of marriage and a long drought in the bedroom, she finally came to understand that my desire for sex was an important part of my happiness in the marriage. Her previously high drive had died and I heard many of the same things many do. "I could live without it forever" Well, I can't and won't. She is now and has been since this conversation an engaged and enthusiastic lover. And I have continued to provide her with the emotional attention she desires in our relationship. It is very much a two way street. The difference? I stated my requirements in the marriage. I stopped begging, bartering and moping about them. This worked for us but I wouldn't guarantee it will work for all. At the time I did it I was aware of the possibility that her response could be "Go **** yourself!"
Click to expand...

The reason why I think this is so brilliant is because it lets her know sex is vital to you, that you will take care of her and her needs both in and out of the bedroom and most especially, after a while she will see that being sexually open and giving doesn't take anything away from her but add significantly to the relationship 

I see this as you last ditch effort. Just before you are ready to throw in the towel, when you have reached the breaking point and it's do or die, you toss this out. If she says, go **** yourself, then you have the last answer you will ever need.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anon and GettingIt are naturally HD, and were only LD by situation. If a man or woman is naturally LD, there is much less chance of overall improvement.


----------



## MisterG

Anon Pink said:


> Bottom line, if you want change, something has to change and since you're the one here, the one unhappy and willing to seek answers and figure things out, you get to change first. No, it's not fair. It is what it is though.


I agree. 

BB, if your wife were here instead of you, people would be giving her advice on how to change in order to get the response she wants from you. No one can do it all by themselves, but someone needs to break the ice and get things moving. In this case, you are that person. 

It's not a gender issue.


----------



## naiveonedave

FW - if you read MMSL, that may not be the case, at least LD becomes more moderate D.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Its also curious to me that we say male must change. The husband needs to do this and do that. fix this. be mor alpha etc. With all due respect ladies, seems to me you skate away clean here. Not all the time, but at least most of the advice and threads I see on this. I have to improve and change. does she? I have changed over the years, has she? Some men look older (shocking) as they age. Newsflash, some women look older as they age too.
> 
> Very onesided issue it seems.
> 
> That said, I'll keep working on things. Its just that I hear much less about the wife changing than the husband changing.


If your wife were here, I'd have PLENTY to say to her. I work every single day on this. Every day. And after I initiated our reconciliation last year, I was working even harder. There were setbacks, there were times I wanted to quit. But that was all stuff I had to do, and I got plenty of support and education from this forum. You can find threads on here where I am telling the LD partner how to work it . . . it's just that you don't see the LD's on here very much. 

I know it can lead to resentment if you feel like you are the only one working. I KNOW this first hand. But I kept going, and once my husband jumped in and started to really work on himself . . . the results have been stellar. And now it seems less like work for the both of us. It's a real, functioning marriage! 

Keep your head up, BB. Put in all the effort that you can while still keeping your resentment in check. The payout might be so worth it, and if it's not, you're still a better person for yourself, and for your child, and for a future mate.


----------



## Faithful Wife

naiveonedave said:


> FW - if you read MMSL, that may not be the case, at least LD becomes more moderate D.


I've read it. Plus about 100 other books on sex and sex in marriage, most of which were much better than MMSL. MMSL is not a bible in the real world, it only is on its own website.

If a person, man or woman, has very little natural sex drive, there is very little anyone can do to make it raise up higher and be sustained that way.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> to me its more about stats dont lie. More marriage sexless marriagesdo not resolve or improve than the other way around. Essentially the odds are AGAINST me and other spouses in this situation.
> 
> This is where the boundary/threshold thing has to take place. How much can you change? If you change, how long can you deal if you signif other doesnt change?
> 
> Its also curious to me that we say male must change. The husband needs to do this and do that. fix this. be mor alpha etc. With all due respect ladies, seems to me you skate away clean here. Not all the time, but at least most of the advice and threads I see on this. I have to improve and change. does she? I have changed over the years, has she? Some men look older (shocking) as they age. Newsflash, some women look older as they age too.
> 
> Very onesided issue it seems.
> 
> That said, I'll keep working on things. Its just that I hear much less about the wife changing than the husband changing.


Its not quite fair is it?

What I find far fetched are things like MMSL that have the guy change to some way of acting more-alpha. Just to entice their wife back to bedroom antics.

I don't doubt it works but at what cost? I read all those books and a lot of it is smoke and mirrors and doesn't work for the average bad situation . Oh sure there are some successes just check the numerous posts between three or four posters in the "Long term success after fixing sex life?" thread

I think all caught in "unacceptable" situations need to realize its not about them and their current self its about WHAT YOU LET HAPPEN years ago INADVERTENTLY.

You have not changed but your lack of control over past situations painted your future. You learn and move on.

There is no quick fix, there is only trying to correct the past and pave a way forward with your needs equally important to your spouses.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
You and I both know that averages mean nothing. 

Two young fit, healthy people who really love each other - have sex a LOT more than once a week. 

Our goal is to help you get to a place where you could just as easily be telling the story below as I am. 

Sunday night:
7:00 PM
W: (smiling) what kind of night do you want to have?
Me: smiling and nodding
9:00 PM
I walk into the bathroom (she has just gotten out of the shower) and as she looks at me I see a micro expression - less than a quarter second - of anxiety on her face. 

I believe that this is about sex - that she doesn't want to. But I don't know why. 

I give her a long hug and use a very soft voice. 
Me: It's been a delightful day, I think you might be a little sleepy, let's connect tomorrow. 
W: But we said before that we were going to
Me: Shhhhh, we are but one long blink from tomorrow, and you need some rest (Mind you I still haven't a clue as to what happened, I just know she doesn't want to. And I want her to know that I am totally ok with that)
W: you sure that's ok?
Me: yes
W: (huge sigh) I am starting to get a headache, I don't mean to be such a bother
Me: (softly) lie down 

Monday night we had an incredibly intense session and then Tuesday I got woken up with a 'morning delight'. 

But Sunday night, I wasn't 'planning for Monday'. I was just doing what comes natural when you love someone.





BostonBruins32 said:


> numbers dont mean much. Its all relative. if 8 times per year is desired by both partners, then thats not sexless.
> 
> its the gap that means more. One wants daily, one wants never. thats the issue.


----------



## Blonde

BB, JFTR I have changed MASSIVELY. Not wrt sex drive, but I am quite a different person than he married, for the better IMO. (I would call myself "average" drive. I get hungry every 5 days. H sets the banquet to keep it at @ 2xweek)

Sometimes I wonder why frustrated men don't just change sexual orientation? Seriously! Another guy will have the same "on" switch and be just as visual. You could even look at female porn together while getting each other off and doing anal will be routine. 

But then I think God must have some reason for making male and female so different in this department and then saying "become one flesh". A cosmic joke? :scratchhead:

You have a child together. Working through this will make you a better man and father IMO.


----------



## naiveonedave

FW - I guess we have to disagree.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> You and I both know that averages mean nothing.
> 
> Two young fit, healthy people who really love each other - have sex a LOT more than once a week.
> 
> Our goal is to help you get to a place where you could just as easily be telling the story below as I am.
> 
> Sunday night:
> 7:00 PM
> W: (smiling) what kind of night do you want to have?
> Me: smiling and nodding
> 9:00 PM
> I walk into the bathroom (she has just gotten out of the shower) and as she looks at me I see a micro expression - less than a quarter second - of anxiety on her face.
> 
> I believe that this is about sex - that she doesn't want to. But I don't know why.
> 
> I give her a long hug and use a very soft voice.
> Me: It's been a delightful day, I think you might be a little sleepy, let's connect tomorrow.
> W: But we said before that we were going to
> Me: Shhhhh, we are but one long blink from tomorrow, and you need some rest (Mind you I still haven't a clue as to what happened, I just know she doesn't want to. And I want her to know that I am totally ok with that)
> W: you sure that's ok?
> Me: yes
> W: (huge sigh) I am starting to get a headache, I don't mean to be such a bother
> Me: (softly) lie down
> 
> Monday night we had an incredibly intense session and then Tuesday I got woken up with a 'morning delight'.
> 
> But Sunday night, I wasn't 'planning for Monday'. I was just doing what comes natural when you love someone.


unicorns. tooth fairies. santa claus.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> unicorns. tooth fairies. santa claus.


Movies


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> Anon and GettingIt are naturally HD, and were only LD by situation. If a man or woman is naturally LD, there is much less chance of overall improvement.


I wouldn't call myself naturally HD. I work it. I encourage it, groom it, and make it happen. If I didn't have a husband I'd miss sex, but I would probably allow my sex drive to cool significantly.


----------



## Cletus

naiveonedave said:


> Also, if you apply mmsl, you will get hit on by other women. if you aren't getting enough, it will be hard for you to not stray. keep that in mind.


Sounds like a too-good-to-be-true weight loss product.

Try the MMSL and get laid tomorrow! Money back guarantee!

A wee too much hyperbole for me.


----------



## naiveonedave

It is not that fast, but I believe it works. Just saying my story, believe it or not.


----------



## Cletus

naiveonedave said:


> It is not that fast, but I believe it works. Just saying my story, believe it or not.


I'm sure it did work for you. If it worked for most men, the news would get out right quick and this forum would dissolve away from lack of use. 

It fits some percentage of the population, no doubt, and might be worth a try for any unsatisfied man - with appropriate expectations.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anon Pink said:


> I wouldn't call myself naturally HD. I work it. I encourage it, groom it, and make it happen. If I didn't have a husband I'd miss sex, but I would probably allow my sex drive to cool significantly.


Someone who is truly LD doesn't "work it", or "encourage it", watch/write porn, and masturbate and fantasize regularly.

If you were single, your body would naturally curb your appetite for partnered sex, but your actual level of D wouldn't change that much.

Only your access to sex would change. You'd still be writing and reading and watching porn, fantasizing and masturbating. A truly LD person who is single won't bother to do those things very often, if at all.


----------



## naiveonedave

the reason it doesn't have the fame is that it seems pretty counter productive and it is very crude. 

Basically, if you end up with not enough after implementing, the author recommends D. It also goes against the current belief that men need to do more "nice" things for the wife.

If you read CWI, you get the "You can't nice her into loving you", i believe the same goes for sex. But men have been told for 40 years to be pansies and that is not working for a lot of men. Do someting to be more masculine, without being an a$$. That is the difference between beta and alpha..


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, she does need to improve and yes you do need to expect improvements. GettingIt had the light bulb go off and then her husband responded. I had the lightbulb go off and then...well he's getting there...
> 
> Bottom line, if you want change, something has to change and since you're the one here, the one unhappy and willing to seek answers and figure things out, you get to change first. No, it's not fair. It is what it is though.
> 
> Marriage is not one person working. How long you can last being the only one working? That's your decision to make. But you have made some changes and she has noticed them. This thread is only about a month old. Your wife is resistant to self examination. So it will take her a while. A few months...IDK maybe?
> 
> I'm going to list this and then find Amplexo's post which I personally think is brilliant! I'll post that next...


I agree with this and would that you need to be willing to walk away if she does not change. I had to change for my marriage. But I also needed to reach the point where I resolved that if she refused to change (after some reasonable time), I would leave. Very hard to do (and fortunately I did not have to test my resolve). But I think it is a critical point to get to.


----------



## Faithful Wife

The reason MMSL doesn't have fame is because it is supposedly a "marriage" book, yet says nothing about love.

What the heck kind of marriage book has nothing said about love in it?

Oh that's right, the author thinks love is nothing but a chemical reaction.

For anyone who believes human emotions are not just simply chemical reactions that can be reproduced in lab rats, they aren't going to read or enjoy MMSL. (Also if you really look into where he gets his "science" from, you'll maybe think twice about it, too).


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> Someone who is truly LD doesn't "work it", or "encourage it", watch/write porn, and masturbate and fantasize regularly.
> 
> If you were single, your body would naturally curb your appetite for partnered sex, but your actual level of D wouldn't change that much.
> 
> Only your access to sex would change. You'd still be writing and reading and watching porn, fantasizing and masturbating. A truly LD person who is single won't bother to do those things very often, if at all.


You're exactly right, and that's my point. LD is a state of laziness, for lack of a better term. If I was single, I wouldn't be encouraging my sex drive by reading writing and watching porn or masturbating...okay maybe masturbating would still be a big part of my life


----------



## Cletus

Anon Pink said:


> You're exactly right, and that's my point. LD is a state of laziness, for lack of a better term. If I was single, I wouldn't be encouraging my sex drive by reading writing and watching porn or masturbating...okay maybe masturbating would still be a big part of my life


And if my wife were single, there would be no masturbation, and near as I can tell, no sexual activity of any kind. No erotic literature, no movies with an ostensibly sexual bent, nothing. It would cease to exist as a force in her life. Actually, that would just be a continuation of the status quo.

That's the kind of person FW is talking about.


----------



## naiveonedave

FW - romantic marriage is less than 100 years old. just saying. Don't agree with him, I don't care. I think he is a bit over the top, but the chemistry is more real than most folks are willing to believe.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anon Pink said:


> You're exactly right, and that's my point. LD is a state of laziness, for lack of a better term. If I was single, I wouldn't be encouraging my sex drive by reading writing and watching porn or masturbating...okay maybe masturbating would still be a big part of my life


Anon...I think this is short-sighted and unfair/unkind to people who are truly LD. It is not a state of laziness. Some people simply don't have a sex drive at all, or very little...since you do have one, I don't think it is fair for you to speculate that those who don't are "lazy".


----------



## naiveonedave

FW - that is not LD, that is no D and that is not normal.


----------



## Faithful Wife

naiveonedave said:


> FW - romantic marriage is less than 100 years old. just saying. Don't agree with him, I don't care. I think he is a bit over the top, but the chemistry is more real than most folks are willing to believe.


Anything that helps anyone have a better sex life and marriage, I'm all for. But MMSL is not for everyone....in fact, it is for very few people. That's just my opinion. If it helped you, I'm happy.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I think that LD people FW is referencing wouldn't even feel the need to masturbate. 

I suppose there are some like Blonde's husband who do not for religious or moral reasons but all in all a very good indication of a persons sexual interest.


----------



## Cletus

naiveonedave said:


> FW - that is not LD, that is no D and that is not normal.


Of course it's normal. It's at one end of the broad range of human sexual drive.

She is not asexual, but her arousal is 100% completely entangled with her relationship with her spouse. Her sexuality is 100% reactive. It has little internal drive mechanism of its own.


----------



## GettingIt_2

To me, it's about exhausting the options that you've willing to try. 

Not willing to try MMSLP/NMMNG? Nobody's holding a gun to your head. 

It might work for you, it might not. Only one way to find out. Go in with eyes wide open about there being no guarantees, sure, but don't do it half azzed; if you're going to do it, commit to doing it and give it a fighting chance.


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> Anon...I think this is short-sighted and unfair/unkind to people who are truly LD. It is not a state of laziness. Some people simply don't have a sex drive at all, or very little...since you do have one, I don't think it is fair for you to speculate that those who don't are "lazy".


For whatever reason a woman has a low sex drive, she has to come to terms with the fact that she married a man and that nearly always means he has a stronger sex drive than she does. 

Men have forged those neural connections to seek sexual pleasure beginning with babyhood and going all the way through. Women did not. As a result, women have to work at forging those neural connections, while men do not.

While, I have always been a touchy feely affectionate cuddle type person, during my LD years I even shied away from that because it would lead to sex I did NOT want to have!

I call it like I see it and I think women with LD can improve their drive! It takes some focus and a little bit of work but it can be improved. I don't agree that any husband should shrug his shoulders and say, oh well he sex drive is really low guess there's nothing I can do about it.

There is! He can do things and she can do things, it s just a matter of getting them both working it!


----------



## Anon Pink

Cletus said:


> Of course it's normal. It's at one end of the broad range of human sexual drive.
> 
> She is not asexual, but her arousal is 100% completely entangled with her relationship with her spouse. Her sexuality is 100% reactive. It has little internal drive mechanism of its own.


Exactly right!

And there are things she can do to learn to create her own sex drive rather than simply respond to his.


----------



## Anon Pink

FrenchFry said:


> I think that LD people FW is referencing wouldn't even feel the need to masturbate.


It's helps me sleep better


----------



## Cletus

Anon Pink said:


> There is! He can do things and she can do things, it s just a matter of getting them both working it!


I separate lazy (unwilling to try) with inability to succeed. Plenty are only one of the two.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> I call it like I see it and I think women with LD can improve their drive! It takes some focus and a little bit of work but it can be improved. I don't agree that any husband should shrug his shoulders and say, oh well he sex drive is really low guess there's nothing I can do about it.
> 
> There is! He can do things and she can do things, it s just a matter of getting them both working it!


It strikes me that people are LD for all kinds of reasons. For some it is their natural state, while others have a higher drive that is suppressed for any number of reasons. 

They key is working the problem to figure out what you have in your spouse and what work they are willing to do.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anon...if it weren't for the fact that I have known and read about so many WIVES who wish their HUSBANDS were more sexual, I might agree with you. But after 10 years of research, and including my own experiences...there is so much possible variation in sex drive for ANY person of EITHER gender...that the whole "a wife should recognize she married a man" argument is not solid.

A friend of mine is currently just now throwing in the towel on her sexless marriage. She is HD, he is LD or ZERO-D. Everything you guys are saying about LD wives is true about him. There is nothing "wrong" with him, either, it is just how he is. When he is asked why he never wants sex, he says "I don't know...I just don't think about it, and then when I do, I'm not sure how to initiate". She's been through everything, all the books, counseling, DivorceBusters (forum)...she has begged, pleaded, bought the lingerie, accused him of being gay.

In the end, with no internal drive to cause someone of EITHER gender to "want" to improve or increase their drive, it is just very unlikely to happen.

She is finally now leaving him after begging for changes for 10 years. He loves her, they have a small child...her heart is broken...and yet, none of those things ever made him figure out how to increase his sex drive. Love does not conquer all, nor does it make some people want to make love to their spouse.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Faithful Wife said:


> Anon...if it weren't for the fact that I have known and read about so many WIVES who wish their HUSBANDS were more sexual, I might agree with you. But after 10 years of research, and including my own experiences...there is so much possible variation in sex drive for ANY person of EITHER gender...that the whole "a wife should recognize she married a man" argument is not solid.
> 
> A friend of mine is currently just now throwing in the towel on her sexless marriage. She is HD, he is LD or ZERO-D. Everything you guys are saying about LD wives is true about him. There is nothing "wrong" with him, either, it is just how he is. When he is asked why he never wants sex, he says "I don't know...I just don't think about it, and then when I do, I'm not sure how to initiate". She's been through everything, all the books, counseling, DivorceBusters (forum)...she has begged, pleaded, bought the lingerie, accused him of being gay.
> 
> In the end, with no internal drive to cause someone of EITHER gender to "want" to improve or increase their drive, it is just very unlikely to happen.
> 
> She is finally now leaving him after begging for changes for 10 years. He loves her, they have a small child...her heart is broken...and yet, none of those things ever made him figure out how to increase his sex drive. Love does not conquer all, nor does it make some people want to make love to their spouse.


amen to this. This all goes back to the original point. If you love something truly, you will work on fixing it. Unless you are medically unable to. If you do not choose to participate in meeting the needs of your spouse, or if you try half heartedly, then you do not love your spouse enough to be married to them. Fact. 

Time will tell, but until I see otherwise I think my wife loves me enough to stay, but is not in love with me enough to meet my needs. All this talk about stop meeting her needs and she'll cahnge or be better and she'll change is nice on some level. But in the end you cant force people to feel or do something. Temporarily you can, but its not honest. And the honest feelings will ALWAYS surface.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

I do believe SEX is very much like any other VICE we treat it separate but when you get right down to it... there is not much difference between:

Drinking
SEX
Gambling
Drug Use

They all trigger brain pleasure responses YET many people CHOOSE 
not to partake and avoid that "pleasure" deliberately

I myself have go off ALL FOUR after being "addicted" to all four.

I don't CARE to drink my personal choice now..don't miss
I don't CARE to do drugs my personal choice now...don't miss
I don't CARE to gamble my personal choice now...don't miss
I don't care for SEX with my wife BECAUSE she doesn't care for sex with me evidently now. Which is a prerequisite for me to ENJOY sex with her now. Occasionally miss.

So I think society has many that choose for whatever reason to go off various "vices" the only difference is since SEX takes two it affects the pair....hence the elevation of it.

We don't chastise those who don't drink, drugs or gamble YET we treat SEX different.


----------



## Faithful Wife

GettingIt said:


> To me, it's about exhausting the options that you've willing to try.
> 
> Not willing to try MMSLP/NMMNG? Nobody's holding a gun to your head.
> 
> It might work for you, it might not. Only one way to find out. Go in with eyes wide open about there being no guarantees, sure, but don't do it half azzed; if you're going to do it, commit to doing it and give it a fighting chance.


I highly recommend NMMNG, as it does include stuff about love and devotion.

Also I highly recommend that any wife whose husband is looking into either of these books read the ENTIRE book yourself and make sure you know what all is being told to your sexual partner.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Faithful Wife said:


> I highly recommend NMMNG, as it does include stuff about love and devotion.
> 
> Also I highly recommend that any wife whose husband is looking into either of these books read the ENTIRE book yourself and make sure you know what all is being told to your sexual partner.


Intimacy and Desire, and languages of love are the two books that I think my wife would benefit from. I read both. I asked her if she was interested, "if you want i can read them" very half heartedly. I already told her they were very insightful and helped me see both sides of a marriage. 

So she knows the potential value in them and is still not interested.

It really goes back to her lack of desire to "try". I know I keep harping on this, but if something will be the straw that breaks the camel's (me) back (heart), this will be it.


----------



## Blonde

usmarriedguy said:


> I would think that porn would actually decrease how much lust they have for their spouse? Certainly so in my case.


Well it's not my thread but I'll just clarify that my H *did not believe in masturbating*. He is a very legalistic religious man. And he never looked at porn at home- it was a boundary line which he has never crossed (we have 8 children, I am a CSAS, it would have been a MAJOR trigger and possibly a M killer if he had exposed our children of tender years to porn). He was a christian college prof and he looked at porn at work. I could tell when he had been looking at porn that day by the lust (lust in a negative sense as used biblically, not just healthy sexual desire or drive.)

He cheated on me in 1990 and 2008. Both times when he was on the road for work (in 07-08 it was chronic- he lived in a diff city during the week)

The oldest son who married at age 21 (a virgin at M BTW) had a "come to Jesus" talk with his father in '09 when his bad behavior all came to light and told him "WTH, DAD, DON'T YOU REALIZE THAT IT IS BETTER TO MASTURBATE THAN CHEAT???!!!" Fast forward to today: I am aware that H mb's sometimes when he is on the road but he does not use porn for it, and that is not just a line he feeds me. I am quite confident that he doesn't use porn anymore.

The frequency of our sex has remained in the average range with mutual O's all along but when he was a porn user he was dissatisfied and the grass was always greener. Now, I think he might be realizing how dang blessed he is to have a wife over 50 who O's mutually with him twice a week routinely and is game to double that if we are on a nice relaxing vacation or two rounds in one day if he catches me on good day and adds a little bourbon.


----------



## Anon Pink

Little bourbon always helps...


----------



## Faithful Wife

BB...I think both of the books you named are of much higher value and quality in general as far as marriage/sex books go.

Alas...like you said...if someone is willing to let you divorce them rather than work on a marital issue, does it even really matter "why"? If the answer is "sorry but I might act like I am trying for years but never actually try and I really will let you walk out the door before I actually change"...then there isn't that much hope. 

IMO, couples need to suss that part out FIRST, not last.

If you will divorce them over this, they should know that earlier than later, so they can respond appropriately.

In Cletus's case, he isn't willing to divorce over this issue, so he (IMO) has a healthy idea of what is going on. It isn't that she doesn't love him.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Many, many marriages get like that. 

I would wager quite a lot of money that the reason your W says 'ILY' so often is that she needs a lot of reassurance. 

Very frequent use of ILY, typically means it is more a question than a statement. The question is 'do you love me'?

In her case the subtext is: Even though I am treating you badly, do you still love me?

I know why that last 10 percent was still there in terms of you giving her sexual/appearance compliments. Because there are situations where NOT doing so, will cause her to feel bad, maybe even rejected. 

Wife: Do you think this (short) skirt is too short?
Every husband is going to want to say something nice in this situation. But in a sexless marriage, the right move is to deflect.
Husband: shrugs and says nothing 
Wife: (getting annoyed) I'm serious
Husband: (calm) what do you think?

The goal is to create empathy. Because along the way, your spouse has lost empathy for you. 

------

Imagine she was on a diet and was working it hard, but was a bit tense because she was a bit hungry all the time. 

Would you eat big desserts in front of her? Of course not, as that would be cruel. 

How is that different than a wife dressing sexy even though she has no intention of having sex with her husband.









BostonBruins32 said:


> amen to this. This all goes back to the original point. If you love something truly, you will work on fixing it. Unless you are medically unable to. If you do not choose to participate in meeting the needs of your spouse, or if you try half heartedly, then you do not love your spouse enough to be married to them. Fact.
> 
> Time will tell, but until I see otherwise I think my wife loves me enough to stay, but is not in love with me enough to meet my needs. All this talk about stop meeting her needs and she'll cahnge or be better and she'll change is nice on some level. But in the end you cant force people to feel or do something. Temporarily you can, but its not honest. And the honest feelings will ALWAYS surface.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Well Blonde, in that case maybe he was just looking at it (not mb)and got himself built up to an extra head of steam before he got home. Most women are kind of turned off by lack of enthusiasm in my experience. (they just do not want to think that porn may have created it ...or Viagra for that matter) -which is natural. 

I agree 100% with your son. He would have been much better off to mb than to cheat.


----------



## Tron

BB,

The timing on this post may be premature in your case, but I guess now is as good a time as any.

I've been through two very long stretches in my 19 year M where we were virtually sexless...10 to 20 times a year. 7 years the first time around and then about 4 years the second time around. Midway through the second stretch I handed her my ring and told her the inscription "forever yours" made me angry and that I would not wear it any more. We continued on as roommates, but needless to say that at the end of the 2nd stretch I was extremely unhappy, resentful and about ready to call it quits. W was also resentful over other things in the M, but she said she was still attracted to me. Her head and emotions just got in her way. 

She would provide duty sex once or twice a month, but after a while I lost the loving feeling, gave up and started taking care of myself. 

Blonde is absolutely right, porn will cause you to disconnect even more. Which in some cases will have the effect of making you even less attractive. 

Anyway I had slowly been dealing with her resentments over a number of things and worked hard to change and meet her needs to the extent that she honestly had nothing left emotionally to hold onto. But things hadn't changed in the bedroom at all.

So, late Summer 2012, the family went down to the beach to some event. I was walking ahead of the W and kids looking for our friends and a place to sit and I noticed this 30 something nice looking blonde totally checking me out. I walked right on by, found our friends, found a chair, hit the boiled crawfish hard and proceeded to have a good time chatting with my friends and family the rest of the night. My wife witnessed the "check-out", agitated about it for hours and later accused me of inviting attention and intentionally seeking out this OW. Total BS! But it did shake things up and laid a foundation for what happened a few months later. 

So, a few months later, Oct '12, I decided that I could not continue down this disconnected and sexless road that we had been travelling. It was unhealthy for me to continue. At that point, I sat her down and told her that I was not interested in duty sex from her once or twice a month, that if she did not love me or desire me enough to actually be a willing and engaged partner on a regular basis, that she was under no obligation to provide any sex whatsoever and I was not going to ask for it. I did not sign up for M to be celibate, so if that was what she wanted, then I could go find sex with someone else and stop bothering her about it. Unfortunately, under those circumstances, our future together in that case could no longer be guaranteed. It was not an idle threat and I hated having to make it but I had reached my limit. 

I think she stewed on that for about a week and things started to improve, she initiated a little more and more, fewer outright rejections and I have since taken the lead. The sex has improved dramatically. She is mostly into it, the quality is good or as good as can be expected with 3 kids, and frequency now...every day this week so far. Rejection rate went from 90% to 10%. She is reading books. We are communicating. She is actively engaged in the M and our sex life. I tease her, pinch her, embrace her, talk provocatively, game her constantly, whether we have sex or not at night. She does the same and we are having fun with it.


----------



## Blonde

Faithful Wife said:


> I highly recommend NMMNG, as it does include stuff about love and devotion.
> 
> Also I highly recommend that any wife whose husband is looking into either of these books read the ENTIRE book yourself and make sure you know what all is being told to your sexual partner.


I skimmed NNMMG and would not give it to my H in a million years! My H would become a monster if he read that book.

I wouldn't send him to MMSL either as I would be afraid he might get into the grass is greener mode with all the locker room boasting @ kink over there....


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> I skimmed NNMMG and would not give it to my H in a million years! My H would become a monster if he read that book.
> 
> I wouldn't send him to MMSL either as I would be afraid he might get into the grass is greener mode with all the locker room boasting @ kink over there....


Neither is perfect for everyone. Both are useful for nice guys who are too passive and trying to buy sex by doing nice things for their wife.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Blonde said:


> My H would become a monster if he read that book.
> 
> I wouldn't send him to MMSL either as I would be afraid he might get into the grass is greener mode


I humbly suggest that, if your predictions were to come true, the problem might not be NMMNG or MMSL.


----------



## Blonde

Trying2figureitout said:


> I do believe SEX is very much like any other VICE we treat it separate but when you get right down to it... there is not much difference between:
> 
> Drinking
> SEX
> Gambling
> Drug Use
> 
> They all trigger brain pleasure responses YET many people CHOOSE
> not to partake and avoid that "pleasure" deliberately
> 
> I myself have go off ALL FOUR after being "addicted" to all four.
> 
> I don't CARE to drink my personal choice now..don't miss
> I don't CARE to do drugs my personal choice now...don't miss
> I don't CARE to gamble my personal choice now...don't miss
> I don't care for SEX with my wife BECAUSE she doesn't care for sex with me evidently now. Which is a prerequisite for me to ENJOY sex with her now. Occasionally miss.
> 
> So I think society has many that choose for whatever reason to go off various "vices" the only difference is since SEX takes two it affects the pair....hence the elevation of it.
> 
> We don't chastise those who don't drink, drugs or gamble YET we treat SEX different.


I hear you. 

I think it takes self control (a spiritual discipline) for my H to be satisfied and consider himself blessed when we only have sex 2 times a week since he fancies multiple times a day. 

The M vows include sex--> "to have and to hold"= euphemism for sex. Barring a physical problem, sexless violates the vows. Sex is a normal expectation for M. 

OTH staying in a M which has been very painful at times, I feel it has forced me to mature and be a better person than I would have been without H and the challenges of this M. There is satisfaction in overcoming difficulties and baggage both becoming more mature. Not easy but satisfying and character building, IMO.


----------



## naiveonedave

totally agree TAG....

But they try to make you a better man. That is key, kick in the pants to self improvement as a man.


----------



## MEM2020

*No - née - ne - nein - nyet*

Trying2figureitout
I give you a lot of latitude due to your totally sexless, seemingly loveless situation. However the post below is very disturbing.

Sex inside a long term committed relationship is not a vice, it is a beautiful gift. 

In my opinion you have been letting your wife abuse you via neglect for at least 4 years. But her neglect of you, does not make sex a vice. 

It is kind of sad that her neglect has impacted you so badly that you now believe that marital sex is a bad thing - a vice. I hope you get out of that marriage before your perspective is harmed even further.....

-----------

6865913]I do believe SEX is very much like any other VICE we treat it separate but when you get right down to it... there is not much difference between:

Drinking
SEX
Gambling
Drug Use

They all trigger brain pleasure responses YET many people CHOOSE 
not to partake and avoid that "pleasure" deliberately

I myself have go off ALL FOUR after being "addicted" to all four.

I don't CARE to drink my personal choice now..don't miss
I don't CARE to do drugs my personal choice now...don't miss
I don't CARE to gamble my personal choice now...don't miss
I don't care for SEX with my wife BECAUSE she doesn't care for sex with me evidently now. Which is a prerequisite for me to ENJOY sex with her now. Occasionally miss.

So I think society has many that choose for whatever reason to go off various "vices" the only difference is since SEX takes two it affects the pair....hence the elevation of it.

We don't chastise those who don't drink, drugs or gamble YET we treat SEX different.[/QUOTE]


----------



## ocotillo

Trying2figureitout said:


> We don't chastise those who don't drink, drugs or gamble YET we treat SEX different.



Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Alexander Dolgun both documented an interrogation technique that was used under Stalin. The person was put into a small, dimly lit, windowless grey cell and completely deprived of all human contact. Food was slipped in through a slot in a solid door. They would be kept there for many months.

Then one day, they would be moved to a larger, brightly lit cell with bars instead of a solid door, a window and a cell mate. The Russian term for what would happen next roughly translates to, "Verbal diarrhea." The cellmate would (Of course) be an informer who would listen sympathetically. The need to communicate with another human being would be built up to such an extraordinary degree, that self control was mostly gone and the person would spill their guts. 

Humans have a complex set of social needs and interrogation techniques like this wouldn't work otherwise. These include things like companionship, conversation, human touch, sex, etc. Sex usually appears on the third tier of Maslow's pyramid of human needs. It can become a vice, but that's true of almost anything that triggers the pleasure response in the brain.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



MEM11363 said:


> Trying2figureitout
> I give you a lot of latitude due to your totally sexless, seemingly loveless situation. However the post below is very disturbing.
> 
> Sex inside a long term committed relationship is not a vice, it is a beautiful gift.
> 
> In my opinion you have been letting your wife abuse you via neglect for at least 4 years. But her neglect of you, does not make sex a vice.
> 
> It is kind of sad that her neglect has impacted you so badly that you now believe that marital sex is a bad thing - a vice. I hope you get out of that marriage before your perspective is harmed even further.....
> 
> -----------
> 
> 6865913]I do believe SEX is very much like any other VICE we treat it separate but when you get right down to it... there is not much difference between:
> 
> Drinking
> SEX
> Gambling
> Drug Use
> 
> They all trigger brain pleasure responses YET many people CHOOSE
> not to partake and avoid that "pleasure" deliberately
> 
> I myself have go off ALL FOUR after being "addicted" to all four.
> 
> I don't CARE to drink my personal choice now..don't miss
> I don't CARE to do drugs my personal choice now...don't miss
> I don't CARE to gamble my personal choice now...don't miss
> I don't care for SEX with my wife BECAUSE she doesn't care for sex with me evidently now. Which is a prerequisite for me to ENJOY sex with her now. Occasionally miss.
> 
> So I think society has many that choose for whatever reason to go off various "vices" the only difference is since SEX takes two it affects the pair....hence the elevation of it.
> 
> We don't chastise those who don't drink, drugs or gamble YET we treat SEX different.


I respectfully disagree... 

It is a vice.... that is accepted just like drinking to excess, using drugs or gambling money away.

Perhaps I have greater clarity being away from it albeit beyond my control within the constraints of marriage.

I personally have been through each recovery (self-induced) from addiction and they feel the same....even sex.

But that is the ONE vice I feel is healthiest and would enjoy if my wife would also with me.

Saying its a gift is nice and all but a fallacy...it fits the vice mold to a T and I think that it explains why some people are just off sex through their own choices.

I disagree its a "need" substitute that for "want"..like drugs,gambling or drinking

I never said its bad..but it most certainly is a vice.
Gifts aren't struggles


----------



## Tall Average Guy

naiveonedave said:


> totally agree TAG....
> 
> But they try to make you a better man. That is key, kick in the pants to self improvement as a man.


I absolutely agree. They work for a type of man of which, unfortunately, there are a lot out there. 

But they don't work for all men or all marriages. Blonde's husband, based on her description, would not be a good candidate. I work to avoid throwing them out until I get a better sense of the man posting.


----------



## treyvion

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



Trying2figureitout said:


> I respectfully disagree...
> 
> It is a vice.... that is accepted just like drinking to excess, using drugs or gambling money away.
> 
> Perhaps I have greater clarity being away from it albeit beyond my control within the constraints of marriage.
> 
> I personally have been through each recovery (self-induced) from addiction and they feel the same....even sex.
> 
> But that is the ONE vice I feel is healthiest and would enjoy if my wife would also with me.
> 
> Saying its a gift is nice and all but a fallacy...it fits the vice mold to a T and I think that it explains why some people are just off sex through their own choices.
> 
> I disagree its a "need" substitute that for "want"..like drugs,gambling or drinking
> 
> I never said its bad..but it most certainly is a vice.
> Gifts aren't struggles


Sex within marriage or a long term relationship IS NOT a vice. We were designed to have sex.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



treyvion said:


> Sex within marriage or a long term relationship IS NOT a vice. We were designed to have sex.


As we were "designed" to like getting a buzz or taking risk.

Its all simply a positive brain reward

I would say taking risk is just as "important" as sex form a human history perspective
Even drug and alcohol use has made its mark on human history.


----------



## treyvion

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



Trying2figureitout said:


> As we were "designed" to like getting a buzz or taking risk.
> 
> Its all a positive brain reward


I won't argue with you. My belief system is that sex is part of marriage and male and female relationships.

Males attempt to mate females. Successful males get to mate and unsuccessful ones dont.

This is natural. Be a successful male and never complain about it, because your having sex.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



treyvion said:


> I won't argue with you. My belief system is that sex is part of marriage and male and female relationships.
> 
> Males attempt to mate females. Successful males get to mate and unsuccessful ones dont.
> 
> This is natural. Be a successful male and never complain about it, because your having sex.


We are all successful males.

Active Cheaters and singles more so


----------



## treyvion

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



Trying2figureitout said:


> We are all successful males.
> 
> Active Cheaters and singles more so


Your now saying, that in marriage, women have decided to lock down their husbands in general for the power of it. To make the single life look more glamorous in comparison?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



treyvion said:


> Your now saying, that in marriage, women have decided to lock down their husbands in general for the power of it. To make the single life look more glamorous in comparison?


No what i'm saying is pretty much every male here has mated and many procreated and some of us are for no better word trapped by our vows and our commitment to our family.

But using the definition of mating as success then Active singles and marital cheaters are more successful due to mating with different females

In fact if you are in a monogamous relationship as long as you procreated you are equally successful
I'm successful as a human male.

I don't try to understand what makes women do some things, best I can surmise its a huge mess of emotions


----------



## treyvion

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



Trying2figureitout said:


> No what i'm saying is pretty much every male here has mated and some of us are for no better word trapped by our vows and our commitment to our family.
> 
> But using the definition of mating as success then Active singles and marital cheaters are more successful due to mating with different females
> 
> An in fact if you are in a monogamous relationship as long as you procreated you are equally successful
> I'm successful.


I'm done with the relationship that put me here.

However just not being trapped in a bad marriage doesn't mean that sex won't be withheld...


----------



## Blonde

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



Trying2figureitout said:


> I respectfully disagree...
> 
> It is a vice.... that is accepted just like drinking to excess, using drugs or gambling money away.
> 
> Perhaps I have greater clarity being away from it albeit beyond my control within the constraints of marriage.
> 
> I personally have been through each recovery (self-induced) from addiction and they feel the same....even sex.
> 
> But that is the ONE vice I feel is healthiest and would enjoy if my wife would also with me.
> 
> Saying its a gift is nice and all but a fallacy...it fits the vice mold to a T and I think that it explains why some people are just off sex through their own choices.
> 
> I disagree its a "need" substitute that for "want"..like drugs,gambling or drinking
> 
> I never said its bad..but it most certainly is a vice.
> Gifts aren't struggles


The habits you mentioned can be vices or can be enjoyed in moderation

If you look much at yourbrainonporn.com or the one from MMSL I posted (High Fructose Porn Syrup) you will see that you can condition your brain so that it needs ever increasing stimulation to get the buzz.

The key to this is moderation and self control.

I was raised by an alcoholic dad, see in myself the potential for compulsiveness, and my H has a strong tendency to go overboard with whatever his latest obsession (work, porn, mb, skiing, bible thumping, etc)

The New Testament of the Bible speaks over and over about self control. It is a spiritual fruit.

Your posts confuse me because on one hand you speak of "keeping your vows" and OTH you speak of cheaters being "successful males"

IMO a man is successful when he has a good character. 

The vows include a vow "to have and to hold" which is a euphemism for sex. If there is no sex in your M that vow has been broken, the M contract is broken. I would exempt sickness because you also vowed "in sickness and health".


----------



## Blonde

Trying2figureItOut

I wonder if Marriage Help Program For Couples would help you and your wife to reconnect? It is the one M help program which H and I can both strongly recommend to anyone. Like MC on steroids only way cheaper and kind of DIY (with peer mentors to role model)


----------



## Trying2figureitout

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



Blonde said:


> The habits you mentioned can be vices or can be enjoyed in moderation
> 
> If you look much at yourbrainonporn.com or the one from MMSL I posted (High Fructose Porn Syrup) you will see that you can condition your brain so that it needs ever increasing stimulation to get the buzz.
> 
> The key to this is moderation and self control.
> 
> I was raised by an alcoholic dad, see in myself the potential for compulsiveness, and my H has a strong tendency to go overboard with whatever his latest obsession (work, porn, mb, skiing, bible thumping, etc)
> 
> The New Testament of the Bible speaks over and over about self control. It is a spiritual fruit.
> 
> Your posts confuse me because on one hand you speak of "keeping your vows" and OTH you speak of cheaters being "successful males"
> 
> IMO a man is successful when he has a good character.
> 
> The vows include a vow "to have and to hold" which is a euphemism for sex. If there is no sex in your M that vow has been broken, the M contract is broken. I would exempt sickness because you also vowed "in sickness and health".



I was responding to the post that labels males as successful by mating obviously I don't condone cheating but by that definition they are successful.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Blonde said:


> Trying2figureItOut
> 
> I wonder if Marriage Help Program For Couples would help you and your wife to reconnect? It is the one M help program which H and I can both strongly recommend to anyone. Like MC on steroids only way cheaper and kind of DIY (with peer mentors to role model)



Thanks but that ship sailed about one year in. Now its way beyond counseling and understanding.


----------



## Blonde

Trying2figureitout said:


> Thanks but that ship sailed about one year in. Now its way beyond counseling and understanding.


We went in year 22 of M. It's not for newlyweds. It is for people who are having serious M problems.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> Thanks but that ship sailed about one year in. Now its way beyond counseling and understanding.


I'm sorry to hear that the ship has sailed with regard to your marriage. THis thread is actually quite remarkable when you think about it. Nearly every member contributing has successfully over come some form of relationship disaster and can talk about how that disaster affected their sex lives. This thread has contributions from prolific, intelligent poster members who have been there done that come out the other side and still moving forward.

I find it odd, and maybe this is just my perception and I am way off base here, that you seem to pick apart what other recommend, those of us who have been there and done that and come out the other side, while you admit that your marriage remains sexless and the ship has sailed.

I guess I just find it confusing.:scratchhead:


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> I'm sorry to hear that the ship has sailed with regard to your marriage. THis thread is actually quite remarkable when you think about it. Nearly every member contributing has successfully over come some form of relationship disaster and can talk about how that disaster affected their sex lives. This thread has contributions from prolific, intelligent poster members who have been there done that come out the other side and still moving forward.
> 
> I find it odd, and maybe this is just my perception and I am way off base here, that you seem to pick apart what other recommend, those of us who have been there and done that and come out the other side, while you admit that your marriage remains sexless and the ship has sailed.
> 
> I guess I just find it confusing.:scratchhead:


What did I pick apart?

I am just offering my perceptions..... and my journey is not over as long as I am married.
I do question GettingIts success story that is overblown to some degree and used as some litmus test here on TAM just like yours.

We are all moving forward whether our spouses follow or not.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I also think the population on this thread has seen success.. so the sample may be too small. 

Meaning that if someone on here has thier doubts about fixing thier marriage or feels the ship has sailed, there is likely a good reason. And please remember that these pessimistic feelings that some have were not derived overnigt. It takes years to build this kind of resentment and lost hope. 

I'm not sure I've mailed it in yet, but if forced to put a wager on my marriage, I would say the long term prognosis is "suck it up and deal with it". Some people change. Many can't or dont want to. DONT WANT TO = the issue.

So while i totally appreciate the optimism from success stories on here, there is also a harsh reality that some of us go home to nightly. And that harsh reality remains stagnant. And there is a harsh reality that many of these marriages dont turn around.


----------



## Anon Pink

Boston, how long ago was your first thread? November, right? 3 months into working it is not at all long, as horribly frustrating as that may be.

Sexless marriage threads come and go all the time. They usually go quickly when the OP, male or female, shows themselves resistant to actually doing the work. You have shown yourself to be willing, eager and able to do the work.

If you print out this thread you will find solid gold info on how to have a positive effect on your marriage. It takes time and consistency.

My husband didn't want to change either. But I'm a force of nature! Each time he takes a step forward he shuffles backward. I hate that the unhappy one is the one who is putting in all the work, that just pisses me off and seems so unfair! But I am the one unhappy and if I want to be happy I have to Make It So!


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Boston, how long ago was your first thread? November, right? 3 months into working it is not at all long, as horribly frustrating as that may be.
> 
> Sexless marriage threads come and go all the time. They usually go quickly when the OP, male or female, shows themselves resistant to actually doing the work. You have shown yourself to be willing, eager and able to do the work.
> 
> If you print out this thread you will find solid gold info on how to have a positive effect on your marriage. It takes time and consistency.
> 
> My husband didn't want to change either. But I'm a force of nature! Each time he takes a step forward he shuffles backward. I hate that the unhappy one is the one who is putting in all the work, that just pisses me off and seems so unfair! But I am the one unhappy and if I want to be happy I have to Make It So!


Only a few months since "critical mass" but a few years of sexless issue, with conversations sprinkled in. As I said, I didnt quit yet. I'm working on myself. 

I'm just being honest. Our pessimism is justified. None of us can predict the future, but we're not just frustrated after a 1 week sexless issue.. we're frustrated after a __ years sexless issue. you have to at least respect that.

Hey so it goes. I'm heading out to play basketball with the boys and very much looking forward to releasing that energy.


----------



## MEM2020

*Ocotillo nails it*

Ocotillo,
The post below is why I love TAM. This is indeed a beautiful analogy. And not one that I would have ever thought of. 



QUOTE=ocotillo;6869745]Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Alexander Dolgun both documented an interrogation technique that was used under Stalin. The person was put into a small, dimly lit, windowless grey cell and completely deprived of all human contact. Food was slipped in through a slot in a solid door. They would be kept there for many months.

Then one day, they would be moved to a larger, brightly lit cell with bars instead of a solid door, a window and a cell mate. The Russian term for what would happen next roughly translates to, "Verbal diarrhea." The cellmate would (Of course) be an informer who would listen sympathetically. The need to communicate with another human being would be built up to such an extraordinary degree, that self control was mostly gone and the person would spill their guts. 

Humans have a complex set of social needs and interrogation techniques like this wouldn't work otherwise. These include things like companionship, conversation, human touch, sex, etc. Sex usually appears on the third tier of Maslow's pyramid of human needs. It can become a vice, but that's true of almost anything that triggers the pleasure response in the brain.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> I do question GettingIts success story that is overblown to some degree and used as some litmus test here on TAM just like yours.



Many of the examples are your typical availability heuristic variety, that is, if it immediately comes to mind it must be important so it must have been a panacea of sorts. This may or may not be the case because I can recall many a not so successful happy ending posters riding into the TAM sunset without ever fixing anything.

We science types believe in repeatable processes where our results can be replicated by our peers. For every success story we hear I can rattle out the names of many not quite so successful stories. Plus no long term follow up all but guarantees that only halo (pun intended) cases are remembered.

I don't think anyone's case is overblown but nobody's case is readily repeatable. When I run a study with 25 subjects you better believe I see variation but that variation by itself is a lot of useful information.


----------



## Blonde

usmarriedguy said:


> Well Blonde, in that case maybe he was just looking at it (not mb)and got himself built up to an extra head of steam before he got home. Most women are kind of turned off by lack of enthusiasm in my experience. (they just do not want to think that porn may have created it ...or Viagra for that matter) -which is natural.
> 
> I agree 100% with your son. He would have been much better off to mb than to cheat.


I've been thinking @ this and I want to say something, speaking from my solidly moral Christian wife perspective.

I stopped at another thread on this sub-forum where a man was complaining because his wife "got religion" and now she does not want to do sex toys and kinky.

We have never used sex toys, and there isn't a lot of kinky. Perhaps our sex life fits the judgement of "vanilla"? We almost always end with face to face missionary, naked, and deep kissing. And for the life of me, I don't get why people dis missionary. To me O that way is far and away the deepest and most intimate experience

My H has had two attitudes @ this. Same H, same W, same M, same sex life. Different *attitude.*

When he was using porn- chip on his shoulder, resentful, grass is greener.

Now that he's clean he said to me the other day "wow our sex is just getting better and better all the time" and after our vacation during which the frequency doubled he said "when we retire, you think it will be like that all the time?" 

I won't get long winded @ my convictions on this issue but 1 Pet 3 and Titus 2 both teach that the wife should be chaste. For me, that means I don't do anything sexually that makes me feel used, dirty, prostitutish. It has to feel pure and loving to me. TBH these boundaries got way firmer with my CSA recovery.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm not sure I've mailed it in yet, but if forced to put a wager on my marriage, I would say the long term prognosis is "suck it up and deal with it". Some people change. Many can't or dont want to. DONT WANT TO = the issue.


My impression from your posts is that you have started to mail it in. You are not taking action and are just waiting for her to do so. You are also convinced you know her thoughts and feelings and anything she does will be tainted by that viewpoint. 

I am not saying you are wrong, but I think you need to be honest with yourself that you are no longer trying. Since you are not, consider telling your wife that.



> So while i totally appreciate the optimism from success stories on here, there is also a harsh reality that some of us go home to nightly. And that harsh reality remains stagnant. And there is a harsh reality that many of these marriages dont turn around.


Listening to success stories in not about the optimism so much as learning approaches that *might *work. The key word is might. What worked for me would not necessarily have worked for Anon. So I hope you can take some suggestions and see what works.

The unsuccessful stories are useful in understanding that there may not be a solution. So at some point, after you have tried as much as you are willing, you figure out that things will not change and need to decide where to go from here.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"When he was using porn- chip on his shoulder, resentful, grass is greener."

Why would you think that he really changed? Perhaps he simply gave up on any hope that he could have more. 

My wife likes a modified version of missionary with me standing beside the bed and we have used that one position maybe other than three times in the past ten years. We have gotten very good at it and even the most routine sex can be extremely good.

Sometimes you just have to settle for good enough and beat back the feeling that you are missing the best of what life has to offer. 

Probably has more to do with him maturing than doing without porn.


----------



## Blonde

usmarriedguy said:


> "When he was using porn- chip on his shoulder, resentful, grass is greener."
> 
> Why would you think that he really changed?


I can feel it. 
And he has talked about it. 

Neither of us used to be able to be "in the moment" during sex- him due to porn exposure starting in preschool, me due to CSA. We both had images between the ears. Nowadays, we both have been delivered from that and can really be WITH each other.


----------



## usmarriedguy

That does not have anything to do with porn -that has to do with him accepting what he has.

Sorry Blonde but people do not change that much. You are simply seeing what you want to see because that is convenient for you.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> My impression from your posts is that you have started to mail it in. You are not taking action and are just waiting for her to do so. You are also convinced you know her thoughts and feelings and anything she does will be tainted by that viewpoint.
> *A lot of this is true. I sort of use deductive reasoning to back my way into how she "must" feel, based on her actions. I am taking action with regards to self and how I behave around her. The only action I'm not taking is initiating sex and I'm also likely not doing a good job of scaling back on "meeting her needs". *
> I am not saying you are wrong, but I think you need to be honest with yourself that you are no longer trying. Since you are not, consider telling your wife that. *Ive grappled with this. I am still working on some things for myself, so i wouldnt tell her im not doing anything. By the same token, I did make it very clear that her actions do not make me feel loved, despite what she says. So theres something there. Being very honest here, I'm somewhere between, as this isnt an easy thing to make a definitive move on.*
> 
> 
> 
> Listening to success stories in not about the optimism so much as learning approaches that *might *work. The key word is might. What worked for me would not necessarily have worked for Anon. So I hope you can take some suggestions and see what works.
> 
> The unsuccessful stories are useful in understanding that there may not be a solution. So at some point, after you have tried as much as you are willing, you figure out that things will not change and need to decide where to go from here.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

I agree that effort toward successes might work and are worth the effort and can work... however when it involves another human you have to be careful to temper your expectations. There are countless failures and a few successes and even the successes I look at with a grain of salt mostly as in are they sustainable or are they ideal? Also how was the success achieved and at what cost? Did you have to change and can you keep up the change forever?

I think OP has a healthy realistic view about the road ahead.

That is not to say resolution is not possible...I still believe it is but it will only be when our spouses decide to do something different on their own, this is more a factor of time and personal preservation than anything we do directly. That is evidenced in both AnonPink and GettinIts stories.

I believe in matching "effort" if a spouse is obtuse to needs after being made perfectly aware then you must re-asses their needs and act accordingly or leave. I don't see much point in continually meeting their needs when they refuse to meet yours as that will cause a sense of unfairness and instead build resentment which is poison to all involved. Its better to accept it and move on and understand your spouse has issues they are working through they must realize at some level their marriage is not ideal.

Perhaps you try the honey method for a good time-frame but after that you have to move on with or without your spouse and let the road take you wherever it leads.

There is a good sense once you feel you did your best and failed there is no shame in that. That is exactly why I set a window of trying, not that I've thrown in a towel or anything if I did I would have left her rather I don't understand anymore and don't overtly attempt any fixes or talk about it anymore to my spouse. She is not deaf.

Guess what there is more to life than gaming sex from your spouse. There is also time for your spouse to grow and change. Which happens slowly.


----------



## treyvion

usmarriedguy said:


> "When he was using porn- chip on his shoulder, resentful, grass is greener."
> 
> Why would you think that he really changed? Perhaps he simply gave up on any hope that he could have more.
> 
> My wife likes a modified version of missionary with me standing beside the bed and we have used that one position maybe other than three times in the past ten years. We have gotten very good at it and even the most routine sex can be extremely good.
> 
> Sometimes you just have to settle for good enough and beat back the feeling that you are missing the best of what life has to offer.
> 
> Probably has more to do with him maturing than doing without porn.


Some times it does feel good to get super good at one position, exploring every nook and cranny that there is.

However it would be great to have a sex partner as adventurous as you are...


----------



## usmarriedguy

While I would have to describe my sex life as very static I would also describe it as better than ever. (even though I still have to supplement with porn)

But this has to do with me getting past my resentment that my wife does not spend much effort on our sex life and accepting that plain vanilla-ish 65 times a year sex is about the best I can hope for. Even without kids I decided it was good enough.

Well to be fair she has bent a bit in my direction enough to give me some loyalty toward her.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Blonde I think once he lowered his expectations and have up on 'great', mediocre seems ok. After a while even good. But it will always be lacking. But good for you for successfully managing his expectations.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> I agree that effort toward successes might work and are worth the effort and can work... however when it involves another human you have to be careful to temper your expectations. There are countless failures and a few successes and even the successes I look at with a grain of salt mostly as in are they sustainable or are they ideal? Also how was the success achieved and at what cost? Did you have to change and can you keep up the change forever?
> 
> I think OP has a healthy realistic view about the road ahead.
> 
> That is not to say resolution is not possible...I still believe it is but it will only be when our spouses decide to do something different on their own, this is more a factor of time and personal preservation than anything we do directly. That is evidenced in both AnonPink and GettinIts stories.
> 
> I believe in matching "effort" if a spouse is obtuse to needs after being made perfectly aware then you must re-asses their needs and act accordingly or leave. I don't see much point in continually meeting their needs when they refuse to meet yours as that will cause a sense of unfairness and instead build resentment which is poison to all involved. Its better to accept it and move on and understand your spouse has issues they are working through they must realize at some level their marriage is not ideal.
> 
> Perhaps you try the honey method for a good time-frame but after that you have to move on with or without your spouse and let the road take you wherever it leads.
> 
> There is a good sense once you feel you did your best and failed there is no shame in that. That is exactly why I set a window of trying, not that I've thrown in a towel or anything if I did I would have left her rather I don't understand anymore and don't overtly attempt any fixes or talk about it anymore to my spouse. She is not deaf.
> 
> Guess what there is more to life than gaming sex from your spouse. There is also time for your spouse to grow and change. Which happens slowly.


Very much agree. And I expressed to my wife during our talk a few nights ago that I've come to the realization that the best "me", assuming I continue to imrpove, may not be enough for her to feel emotionally connected. And i said I'm increasingly becoming ok with that. She said she is emotionally connected, but again actions vs words.

My point is, and ive said this on here, if I become the best me. If I lay it all out and up my game, then I can sleep better regardless of the outcome. If I do not try to improve and the marriage fails, well then thats 50% on me. If I do improve and the marriage fails, I won't lose sleep over the ownership of that failure.


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
I will take true 'connection' over gymnastics and geometry any day. 

Perhaps the mild allergic reaction you are getting to this post has to do with your opening sentence. It sort of reads like - if you are kinky then you aren't moral. 





[/B]


Blonde said:


> I've been thinking @ this and I want to say something, speaking from my solidly moral Christian wife perspective.
> 
> I stopped at another thread on this sub-forum where a man was complaining because his wife "got religion" and now she does not want to do sex toys and kinky.
> 
> We have never used sex toys, and there isn't a lot of kinky. Perhaps our sex life fits the judgement of "vanilla"? We almost always end with face to face missionary, naked, and deep kissing. And for the life of me, I don't get why people dis missionary. To me O that way is far and away the deepest and most intimate experience
> 
> My H has had two attitudes @ this. Same H, same W, same M, same sex life. Different *attitude.*
> 
> When he was using porn- chip on his shoulder, resentful, grass is greener.
> 
> Now that he's clean he said to me the other day "wow our sex is just getting better and better all the time" and after our vacation during which the frequency doubled he said "when we retire, you think it will be like that all the time?"
> 
> I won't get long winded @ my convictions on this issue but 1 Pet 3 and Titus 2 both teach that the wife should be chaste. For me, that means I don't do anything sexually that makes me feel used, dirty, prostitutish. It has to feel pure and loving to me. TBH these boundaries got way firmer with my CSA recovery.


----------



## john117

It actually is not difficult to remove absolute morality from the picture. Just call it boundaries. If a partner has a problem with something, they speak up, if they get heard good and better, if not, then there's a problem, etc. A particular set of moral code simply does that for you.

Morality at the end is nothing but a predefined set of rules. I don't consider myself an intrinsically moral person but I play by the rules all the same.

There may be things now that a partner may not want to do but they did those 30 years ago - that does not become a moral issue, but more of a communication issue, like anything else.

Throwing labels at something is just a convenient way to explain away things.


----------



## usmarriedguy

All I was saying is that it has nothing to do with porn use and everything to do with managing expectations.

"*When he was using porn*- chip on his shoulder, resentful, grass is greener."

For me it isn't that I have totally given up any effort at improvement but I think that I have learned to work with what I have in a more positive way and that is to make her feel as good about herself as possible. Even if she is not the most "sexual" woman and maybe even below average it is much better for me to allow her some confidence in herself than to try to get her to do things that only spice sex up and make it more mentally stimulating.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

usmarriedguy said:


> All I was saying is that it has nothing to do with porn use and everything to do with managing expectations.
> 
> "*When he was using porn*- chip on his shoulder, resentful, grass is greener."
> 
> For me it isn't that I have totally given up any effort at improvement but I think that I have learned to work with what I have in a more positive way and that is to make her feel as good about herself as possible. Even if she is not the most "sexual" woman and maybe even below average it is much better for me to allow her some confidence in herself than to try to get her to do things that only spice sex up and make it more mentally stimulating.


Its justification plain and simple on your part... in reality should you ever leave your wife or vice versa her sexuality would be FULLY re-awakened for two reasons 1) She does like sex 2) She is with someone new and not YOU. She has successfully got you to accept what the current situation is which is fine but its simply justification for what is basically not ideal and has you supplementing with porn.

All these "LD" women are basically trying to find the least bad existence to justify their own life and marriage....most are lost in that endeavor and don't understand they should be searching for best existence with their "HD" spouse for best mutual results. I believe most don't even think about doing anything until its too late/too set-in on their part and most never find true happiness with themselves.... and really never get it. Some say they get it so perhaps some rare ones do.


----------



## Anon Pink

When I read: "from my solidly moral Christian wife perspective" it sounds more like from my sedate boring restrictive wife perspective, so I don't take offense to it. To each his or her own...

But, I don't have a problem with porn. It can teach new things, just like a new cookbook. It just has to be viewed from the right perspective.

Even though WOM's comments may have been hurtful, I find myself agreeing.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Trying2figureitout said:


> All these "LD" women are basically trying to find the least bad existence to justify their own life and marriage....most are lost in that endeavor and don't understand they should be searching for best existence with their "HD" spouse for best mutual results. I believe most don't even think about doing anything until its too late/too set-in on their part and most never find true happiness with themselves.... and really never get it. Some say they get it so perhaps some rare ones do.


The same thing can be said about the HD partner.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

usmarriedguy said:


> The same thing can be said about the HD partner.


Um not really usually the HD partner "gets it" and tries their best initially to rectify the situation rather than burying their head in the sand until its too late like the typical LD spouse

As for happiness it is what you make of it...and I think HD spouse at least know what they want and have some level of empathy for their LD spouse.

This is described in MANY HD/LD posts here and bears hard data points to support my stance.
Plus social norm indicate a regular healthy monogamous sex life is a key component to marital bliss.

NOT low sex/ crappy sex or sexless one-sided decision

There is also a difference when it comes to the norm in a longer term marriage versus not the norm afterwards...the HD partner basically becomes a POW at that stage all at the hands of the new LD partner..they can escape or make the best of it and they determine their own happiness with their choice.

The *worst part* of all of this is the LD partner is rarely forthcoming about the marital shared situation.

I do feel for LD toward their own spouse individuals....

It must be horrible to be forced into something you don't like or enjoy anymore
I try to put myself in their shoes and envision it similar to:

The fact I really HATE curry... I cant imagine ordering curry and ever in my life enjoying it.

I used to like ketchup on everything (Steak, potatoes, cereal) now I don't. But on hamburgers or fries sure now.

Tastes change so I get that, but at the very basis should be communication and that's what bugs most of us
ando suddenly end up with a new-LD for YOU spouse at year 15-17.


----------



## Cletus

Blonde said:


> I've been thinking @ this and I want to say something, speaking from my solidly moral Christian wife perspective.


So I will answer from my solidly moral atheist husband perspective.



> We have never used sex toys, and there isn't a lot of kinky. Perhaps our sex life fits the judgement of "vanilla"? We almost always end with face to face missionary, naked, and deep kissing. And for the life of me, I don't get why people dis missionary. To me O that way is far and away the deepest and most intimate experience


Missionary sex is good. It has much to recommend it. But like anything in life, some of us need a little variety once in a while to keep boredom at bay. Steak and lobster sure do taste good, but you'd tire of them if you ate them every night. Same goes with sex. 

Sex with my wife is a little like making love in a straight jacket. Everything is fine, even often wonderful, as long as I don't deviate from the straight and narrow, as it were. As soon as I want to break an arm free, I'm off the reservation. Were not talking about installing a 1/2 ton sex swing and a dungeon in the basement. Were talking about stuff that the majority of contributors here take for granted as a given in an adult sexual relationship.

While I'm certainly not in the anti-porn camp, I'm also not much of a user any longer. None of this is a grass-is-greener problem - the whole reason I'm still married to a sexually constipated partner is because I'm fully aware that not only is the grass often not greener, it's frequently not even grass. 

If the same thing every time you have sex with your husband works for you, knock your boots off. Some of us at least want a cherry on top of that vanilla shake once in a while. IF that helps you understand, great.


----------



## usmarriedguy

You know the old expression: if you have lemons learn to make lemonade. 

-Not that lemons are defective are wrong in any way. 

It just means that you have to work with what you have. If me telling my wife how great our vanilla sex is makes her feel better and more confident and thereby increases the overall quality of sex than that is the best I have so far figured out how to do.

There is more to marriage than sex (or in my case interesting sex).


----------



## Blonde

Anon Pink said:


> Even though WOM's comments may have been hurtful, I find myself agreeing.


I have a tough skin and did not expect my views on this to be recd kindly.

But our sex life is not boring nor dissatisfying. No one can contradict my experience. ((((((shrug)))))))

I don't believe porn use has nearly the negative spiritual power over a non-christian that it does over a christian. And if I was married to a NON-christian porn user, his habits have no power/authority to defile me- a Christian- per 1 Cor 7. 

Nuff said on that. Don't want to generate heat nor get off onto a tangent


----------



## Cletus

usmarriedguy said:


> You know the old expression: if you have lemons learn to make lemonade.
> 
> -Not that lemons are defective are wrong in any way.
> 
> It just means that you have to work with what you have. If me telling my wife how great our vanilla sex is makes her feel better and more confident and thereby increases the overall quality of sex than that is the best I have so far figured out how to do.
> 
> There is more to marriage than sex (or in my case interesting sex).


Ok, so is there a time where you finally say "F*** the lemons, I'm having Tequila"?

What is the minimal sexual expression which you will tolerate? If she laid there like a corpse and stared at the ceiling waiting for you to finish, would you be good with that? How about if she wouldn't get naked? What if she wouldn't kiss you?

There has to be some minimum below which satisfaction is not possible.


----------



## Cletus

Blonde said:


> I have a tough skin and did not expect my views on this to be recd kindly.
> 
> But our sex life is not boring nor dissatisfying. No one can contradict my experience. ((((((shrug)))))))


It wasn't stated that your sex life was boring to you. It was your lack of understanding on why it might be boring to others (along with some of the subtext) that set off the response bots.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"But our sex life is not boring nor dissatisfying."

...at least not to you.


She will not get naked but she does enjoy it and almost always has an O both from finger and PiV so she is not staring at the ceiling waiting for it to end but we do just have the one method. 

Hard to say what my minimum actually was -thankfully we have had sex pretty regularly for the past 13 years. While I have never had a BJ present she has gotten pretty good at it as part of foreplay so I would think that many people have it worse.


----------



## ocotillo

*Re: No - née - ne - nein - nyet*



Blonde said:


> The vows include a vow "to have and to hold" which is a euphemism for sex.


--Never thought of it that way. The habendum clause is indicative of ownership and occurs in leases and deeds too. 

After thinking about it, I guess that for Christians, there would be a strong parallel to 1 Corinthians 7:4


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

naiveonedave said:


> FW - *romantic marriage is less than 100 years old. * just saying. Don't agree with him, I don't care. I think he is a bit over the top, but the chemistry is more real than most folks are willing to believe.


I assume this is a typo and you were going for 1000 years? I still disagree with your opinion regarding romance, but then again you may be referring to the notion that most marriages in our distant pasts tended to be arranged vs. our ancestors having a choice regarding who they married? Because the notions of love and romance have been around for a VERY long time.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I'm going to throw out the idea that true LD is pretty rare among people. In most cases, I believe LD is a learned behavior and/or a reaction to being subjected to bad experiences over a prolonged period of time.

To me, true LD is based on biochemistry and biophysics. Either your hormones are off or you have some type of issue with the nervous system in and around the sex organs/errogeneous zones where you are not feeling the sensations in a normal way. Assuming that the person you are with will feel pleasure like a normal person plus has the proper level of hormones in their body that are normal given the age of the subject, he/she CAN become a person with a normal sex drive who will want sex at a minimum of once/week.


----------



## usmarriedguy

What does "true" LD even mean? 

I guess you mean people who have a physical limitation?

What is your point? What difference does it make if someone is "truly" LD or LD by the way they where raised in society?

Either way it is Obvious it can't "just" be fixed. So nature or nurture it does not matter. 

What is your epiphany? -Just tell the LD's it is all in their head?


----------



## john117

Physiological vs mental limitations... One is easier to address with intervention and is well understood, the other not do much...


----------



## Trying2figureitout

LD vs HD... it basically comes down to initially "screw" it on the LD part. They take a calculated risk and initially enjoy "success" and don't communicate this decision to their spouse for obvious reasons...self-preservation.

HD is wait, no not that.

Then later after no progress HD on the new-LD spouses front HD says "screw it" not worth the hassle "screw" LD needs....

LD is wait, no not that

An impasse... both are normal desire deep down and would be with new partners....its the back story and resentments that did them in.

Fun wasted years congrats couples..hey valentines is coming up buy a card and pretend you are lovers and then go cry to TAM


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

usmarriedguy said:


> What does "true" LD even mean?
> 
> I guess you mean people who have a physical limitation?
> 
> What is your point? What difference does it make if someone is "truly" LD or LD by the way they where raised in society?
> 
> Either way it is Obvious it can't "just" be fixed. So nature or nurture it does not matter.
> 
> What is your epiphany? -Just tell the LD's it is all in their head?


It makes a huge difference IMHO. Consider these circumstances and the different approaches needed to address the problem:

Low Testosterone or Estrogen
Child sex abuse
Loss of attraction to your spouse
Debilitating disease

Probably the easiest one to address would be hormone imbalances, which can be addressed by a Dr. Office visit. The loss of attraction is harder since that can involve several issues where the marriage becomes strained for whatever reasons. Then it gets even harder if the LD spouse has to deal with psychological trauma. You get the point. Some LD spouses are LD for a variety of issues that span a continuum when it comes to difficulty in addressing the problem.


----------



## Cletus

But abuse/hormones/CSA are not the only reasons one might be LD.

Let's assume for debate that the average adult with no hormonal issues, no history of abuse, and no disease wants sex once every 5 days (this is the average, and the exact number is not too important). Let's say that the standard deviation is 5 days as well, which means that 68% of all adults want sex between once a day and once every 10 days. 

The tails of the distribution, if it's normal, are at 3 sigma, where 2% of the population lives. That means that, using my made up example numbers, 1% of the population will want sex less than twice a month. 

There are in the US alone 250 million adults 18 or older. Let's say that half of them fit the definition of normal we're using. 1% of this population is almost 1.25 million adults. For this example, that's 1.25 million people who want sex less than twice a month for no reason other than being alive and being human and falling into the gaussian distribution for human sexuality.

The numbers are completely bogus, but I use them just to outline the argument.


----------



## MEM2020

Cletus,
This is an exceptionally fine example of analysis. And frankly I believe your numbers are likely rather close to 
reality.

I am now going to overlay my personal experience and what I have learned from reading on TAM.
Love is both the desire to help your partner become the best possible version of themself,
While encouraging them to help you reach your own potential.

In our marriage the result has been a 4x to 5x increase in sexual frequency and a similar increase
in emotional intimacy. With a point of overlap being a very high level of completely non sexual 
affection. 

I would never pair up with someone who lacked a strong desire to please me.

Desire to please is far more sustainable than raw lust.



E=Cletus;6901426]But abuse/hormones/CSA are not the only reasons one might be LD.

Let's assume for debate that the average adult with no hormonal issues, no history of abuse, and no disease wants sex once every 5 days (this is the average, and the exact number is not too important). Let's say that the standard deviation is 5 days as well, which means that 68% of all adults want sex between once a day and once every 10 days. 

The tails of the distribution, if it's normal, are at 3 sigma, where 2% of the population lives. That means that, using my made up example numbers, 1% of the population will want sex less than twice a month. 

There are in the US alone 250 million adults 18 or older. Let's say that half of them fit the definition of normal we're using. 1% of this population is almost 1.25 million adults. For this example, that's 1.25 million people who want sex less than twice a month for no reason other than being alive and being human and falling into the gaussian distribution for human sexuality.

The numbers are completely bogus, but I use them just to outline the argument.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## committed4ever

Blonde said:


> I have a tough skin and did not expect my views on this to be recd kindly.
> 
> But our sex life is not boring nor dissatisfying. No one can contradict my experience. ((((((shrug)))))))
> 
> I don't believe porn use has nearly the negative spiritual power over a non-christian that it does over a christian. And if I was married to a NON-christian porn user, his habits have no power/authority to defile me- a Christian- per 1 Cor 7.
> 
> Nuff said on that. Don't want to generate heat nor get off onto a tangent


I can really appreciate you! As a wife who's parents (well, mother any way) tried to raise Christians kids and taught us that sex is for marriage. But for us girls she taught but after marriage, the sky's the limit with sex. Not necessarily in WHAT you did but frequency -- the more the better is what she taught us girls. Anyway, I really consider myself to be a rather back-slidden Christian, not because of my sex life but other things about my/our lifestyle.

Anyway, I know this is rather probing and nervy of me but I have to ask based on how you started that other post about being moral and Christian, how do you feel about BJ's? Just curious I guess but I will understand if you say none of of your d*** business. 

Just to be fair for asking you, I just start giving them to my husband around this time last year and I'm in like Flyn now. But my H never ask me for one before or pressure me to do it because I told him I thought they were probably kind of gross, and humiliating. TAM probably changed my mind the most.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> I would never pair up with someone who lacked a strong desire to please me.



This assumes that 

(a) the desire is relatively constant over time without external influence.

(b) external influences that could impact desire can be identified and mitigated over time

(c) conscious attempts to influence - lower - desire long term do not occur

Nobody sets out to get married thinking they will need IC or MC or they would deal with what we're discussing here...


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> I would never pair up with someone who lacked a strong desire to please me.
> 
> Desire to please is far more sustainable than raw lust.
> 
> ]


I think this would make a very interesting thread, MEM.


----------



## john117

I am not sure I agree with the second part either. Desire to please is a higher level function than raw lust and I would think not as strong so not as sustainable.

Ask 100 men if they would be willing to carry some nymphette's luggage thru Denver International Airport to either please her or satisfy some not so wholesome lust thoughts by nature of nymphette's wearing her recalled Lululemons :rofl: 

If you tell me more will do it for a peck on the cheek vs an eyeful of Lulu, let's just say I will find it hard lol to believe...


----------



## jld

I guess I was thinking of it from a woman's point of view.

Even when I am mad at dh, I still feel a sort of compulsion to please him. I don't know if it is him, or if it is just me. But the fact that we are still together after 20 years makes me think it is him, his effect on me.

Okay, not to belabor this, but I think it is because dh is independent. I feel like I am always seeking him. I know he cares, but he really could be a loner.

Dh is pretty low emotion, and I am high emotion. Sometimes I feel like I could get whiplash from my emotions. And then I emote and emote and emote, but it doesn't seem to rock him. He gets frustrated at times, but he believes in me and is committed to me. 

MEM, I really wish you would start that thread, because I think this would be an interesting topic to explore.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Potential causes of LD:

Hormonal deficiency

Body image issues

Performance anxiety

Addictions (any type)

Depression

Physiology (lack of sensation or functioning)

Lack of attraction for partner

Medications

Religious repression

Other mental issues (madonna/wh*re complex, ect)

. . . . . . . . .

Yes, it does matter which of these is the biggest issue, if you are an HD spouse with an LD spouse and you are hoping to improve your sex life.

But if you aren't that HD spouse, and you are looking from the outside at an LD person, then it really doesn't matter "why" a person is LD and furthermore...an LD person is not necessarily damaged, wrong, or in need of being fixed.

An LD person, again, no matter which of the above reasons are in play, still has a perfectly valid life, just as they are and don't need anyone's pity or pushing them to change.

All life experiences are valid for the person who is experiencing it.

There are many areas of my life where I'm kind of LD for, where I'm lacking in some way that makes me not strive for certain things. There are certain things about me that would make me totally unattractive to certain partners. Yet there's nothing wrong with me, it would just be a bad fit. I do not need to be fixed just because my desire to learn how to cook is literally ZERO. Yet I bet some of these guys around here who get no sex get EXCELLENT meals prepared for them...something my husband would envy.

My point here is just that LD is not a condition that needs to be fixed by others. And HD is not the "default, normal and better" way to be, either.

The range between asexual and hypersexual is so huge and all of us fit on there somewhere. If it isn't our own spouse, why do we care to try to make out others and their desire levels to be "wrong" and in need of change?

Many truly LD people are perfectly happy just as they are. If they try to change us HD people, we get quite offended. Why wouldn't they feel offended by others trying to change them?

There a huge range of potential patterns and behaviors in sexuality. Try to see a bigger picture. There's room for all of us.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
This bit is all about Desire to please, not lust. 

(A) Mrs. MEM's desire to please does vary over time. At one point it felt like she was trying to aggressively steer the marital ship down the borderline path of destruction (BPD) for short. 

My recipe for dealing with this was: 
- 2 cups humor
- 2 cups patience
- 2 cups commitment 
- 4 cups love
Combined with the occasional ice bath 

(B) When lust disappeared and pain rendered intercourse a 'no go' frequency dropped to weekly. She was angry at the situation, and at me. Very frightened I would bail out over the 'no intercourse' situation. 
- 2 cups patience
- 4 cups empathy 
- 8 cups commitment

Reminded her of that biblical story of the group asked to contribute to the poor. The older woman in the crowd gave the least in amount, but the most in value because she gave everything that she had. 

Told her - that's you - you are giving me everything you have. How could I feel anything other than grateful. 

(C) This is about making mischief. And no one is more full of mischief than Mrs. MEM. This can be trying to deal with. 
- 2 cups humor (when I can find it, now and again the cupboard is bare)

- Emotional water boarding 




john117 said:


> This assumes that
> 
> (a) the desire is relatively constant over time without external influence.
> 
> (b) external influences that could impact desire can be identified and mitigated over time
> 
> (c) conscious attempts to influence - lower - desire long term do not occur
> 
> Nobody sets out to get married thinking they will need IC or MC or they would deal with what we're discussing here...


----------



## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> I do not need to be fixed just because my desire to learn how to cook is literally ZERO.


Lol. Then I'm not the only one.


----------



## john117

Desire to please requires a reason, and that complicates things. Lust is lust, a far more primal attribute.

Also desire to please is satisfiable by a multitude of ways. Lust... Not so much so. 

If your partner is willing to work at it when issues arise, the more power to her and you. It seems to me that the real issue is not LD in itself but not taking action...


----------



## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> Potential causes of LD:
> 
> Hormonal deficiency
> 
> Body image issues
> 
> Performance anxiety
> 
> Addictions (any type)
> 
> Depression
> 
> Physiology (lack of sensation or functioning)
> 
> Lack of attraction for partner
> 
> Medications
> 
> Religious repression
> 
> Other mental issues (madonna/wh*re complex, ect)


The pivotal event for my wife and myself was pregnancy. The woman I married "died" at that point and hasn't been seen since. I still miss her. I've looked and not found a whole lot in academic literature about personality changes associated with pregnancy, but boy did it bite us in life!


----------



## MEM2020

John,
The main difference between our situations might come down to risk tolerance. 

When Mrs. MEM feels an intense desire to test my boundaries, she gets a consistent response which is some version of: I am really going to miss you. 

She is absolutely convinced that I would rather start over than live in a marital version of GITMO.

Your wife fears no such consequence....,





john117 said:


> Desire to please requires a reason, and that complicates things. Lust is lust, a far more primal attribute.
> 
> Also desire to please is satisfiable by a multitude of ways. Lust... Not so much so.
> 
> If your partner is willing to work at it when issues arise, the more power to her and you. It seems to me that the real issue is not LD in itself but not taking action...


----------



## john117

True, because I value the tuition money a bit more than I value her contribution to my emotional well being.

It would be more emotionally fulfilling to walk out but it's a compromise I'm willing to accept. 

I can make life very, ehem, challenging if need be, and did so. But you know what? Her needs are simple. Laptop boots, network works, work gets done, Netflix works, etc. When you're dealing with someone like that, someone who for all intents and purposes has checked our of life altogether, threatening to make her life like Gitmo is an oxymoron. 

About 4 years ago I did start filling the paperwork - and was going to follow up with it, and she knew it. But it was not over emotional fulfillment. I got my way and a barrel full of USDA Grade A resentment. 

In a couple or three years we will have to take a hard decision that is very money driven. Downsize our home or borrow $200k for my younger girl to go to med school. Once again it is a walkable issue to me. 

I figure, if I'm going to blow up the nest, Angry Birds style, at least let me do it over something more important to me than sex...


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Faithful Wife said:


> Potential causes of LD:
> 
> Hormonal deficiency
> 
> Body image issues
> 
> Performance anxiety
> 
> Addictions (any type)
> 
> Depression
> 
> Physiology (lack of sensation or functioning)
> 
> Lack of attraction for partner
> 
> Medications
> 
> Religious repression
> 
> Other mental issues (madonna/wh*re complex, ect)
> 
> . . . . . . . . .
> 
> Yes, it does matter which of these is the biggest issue, if you are an HD spouse with an LD spouse and you are hoping to improve your sex life.
> 
> But if you aren't that HD spouse, and you are looking from the outside at an LD person, then it really doesn't matter "why" a person is LD and furthermore...an LD person is not necessarily damaged, wrong, or in need of being fixed.
> 
> An LD person, again, no matter which of the above reasons are in play, still has a perfectly valid life, just as they are and don't need anyone's pity or pushing them to change.
> 
> All life experiences are valid for the person who is experiencing it.
> 
> There are many areas of my life where I'm kind of LD for, where I'm lacking in some way that makes me not strive for certain things. There are certain things about me that would make me totally unattractive to certain partners. Yet there's nothing wrong with me, it would just be a bad fit. I do not need to be fixed just because my desire to learn how to cook is literally ZERO. Yet I bet some of these guys around here who get no sex get EXCELLENT meals prepared for them...something my husband would envy.
> 
> My point here is just that LD is not a condition that needs to be fixed by others. And HD is not the "default, normal and better" way to be, either.
> 
> The range between asexual and hypersexual is so huge and all of us fit on there somewhere. If it isn't our own spouse, why do we care to try to make out others and their desire levels to be "wrong" and in need of change?
> 
> Many truly LD people are perfectly happy just as they are. If they try to change us HD people, we get quite offended. Why wouldn't they feel offended by others trying to change them?
> 
> There a huge range of potential patterns and behaviors in sexuality. Try to see a bigger picture. There's room for all of us.


I'm not out to "fix LD people". Everyone has the freedom to do what they feel comfortable with. But if my wife decides she no longer wishes to have sex with me, then we have a problem. This is what I thought the tenor of the thread was about - issues with sex when a couple have mismatched drives.


----------



## Lyris

I am actually at this point in my life, fairly LD. If left to myself I'd say I feel spontaneous desire about once a month. 

I am very attracted to my husband though, and if I focus on how hot he is, I can definitely get things going. Also, I have a very high desire to please him, not because I think he'll leave me - I know he won't. But because when he is happy, I am happy. I require his happy participation in our lives to enjoy things properly.

I don't understand people who don't care if their spouse is happy in the marriage. I can't be happy, and I mean that literally, if my husband is unhappy with our relationship. When he is happy and loving and connected to me, I feel total joy and contentment. If he is withdrawn and disappointed, I feel sad and it's hard to enjoy life. 

So although I don't require sex in a physical sense very much right now, I absolutely do to keep our emotional bond strong.


----------



## john117

Some people do not exactly care about happiness and contentment. They prefer to be miserable 24/7 simply to stand up gift their "principles" regardless if it's against their best interests in the long term.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm not out to "fix LD people". Everyone has the freedom to do what they feel comfortable with. But if my wife decides she no longer wishes to have sex with me, then we have a problem. This is what I thought the tenor of the thread was about - issues with sex when a couple have mismatched drives.


Yes, Plan 9...and I would have a problem if my H became LD and our sexual activity decreated, and I would do quite a many things to try to fix my sex life if that happened.

But there have been statements made by some here that imply or say directly that there is no acceptable reason for anyone being truly LD. If they are, they are hormone deficient or something and this is a unnatural variation compared to HD being implied as being the "normal" variation. I'm simply trying to say that there are some LD people who may have just been "born that way" (call it hormone deficient if you want) who are perfectly happy with themselves and their lives, including their sex lives, just as they are (some are happily married to other LD people!)

If you are "born that way", then it is natural for you. Who or why would anyone say otherwise?

Now, saying that this LD person "should" accommodate their HD spouse and provide more sex than they would naturally want to give is an entirely different discussion than "fixing" them.

Like Lyris said, it is her choice to have sex to be close to her husband even though she doesn't always want it upfront. 

If she chose not to do that, this would likely have zero effect on her "problem" of being LD, right? So in other words, LD is not the "problem" is it?


----------



## Faithful Wife

john117 said:


> Some people do not exactly care about happiness and contentment. They prefer to be miserable 24/7 simply to stand up gift their "principles" regardless if it's against their best interests in the long term.


I assume you are referring to yourself?


----------



## john117

LD is as acceptable as any other physical or emotional issue a couple encounters, from cancer to depression to a broken nail. 

What is not acceptable is ignoring it and not communicating or working to resolve it. Most LD's find it perfectly acceptable to coast along. That's where the problem is.


----------



## john117

Faithful Wife said:


> I assume you are referring to yourself?



Incorrect assumption, I'm afraid. 

Happiness is an innate quality regardless of external situations. I learned to be happy when all we had in life were two government TV channels and pommes frittes and eggs for dinner. Others can live in a mansion and be perpetually unhappy just because they never figured out what it actually means to be happy.

Ultimately a whole bunch of emotional issues stem from not understanding the criteria of happiness and pursuing la-la land goals.


----------



## Faithful Wife

From my POV, you are the one who seems to be pursuing la-la land goals.


----------



## john117

To follow up on my own post...

Every action we take has a definite utility value in terms of how it contributes to happiness. Consider two people going for a coffee at Starbucks. One person (happy) may see it as an opportunity to people watch, and drink a latte in the process. Yet another person sees this as a waste of money because their value system is not wired to understand small rewards. To them it's all about the $5 they spend, not the pleasure of what they get.

I deal with stuff like this for a living. Some people understand the pleasure of a $5 latte, some don't. No different than sex or anything else. Their value system says that $5 coffee is unacceptable regardless...


----------



## john117

Glad to see you know me well enough to make judgement call upon judgement call on my values. I am flattered :lol:

There are many people for whom only lofty goals are important. Today my wife was talking to my younger one about what mansion she should build once she finishes med school. That's a la la land goal if there ever was one...


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris,
I think my W would say all that - exactly as you did save for the bit about jeopardizing the marriage. 

That said, I believe that her desire to show me love in this manner is matched by my desire not to cause her angst about our sex life. 

She certainly knows that overall, it's important to me to connect on a regular basis. And that I go out of my way to avoid guilt/anxiety triggers on the many nights that she would rather not. 

Since she knows I am happy to connect whenever she would like to, I let her cue me. 

We both like the intense closeness that comes from sex. And we also enjoy lying entangled without sex. That wasn't true for me in my late twenties to early forties. But it is now. 



QUOTE=Lyris;6905697]I am actually at this point in my life, fairly LD. If left to myself I'd say I feel spontaneous desire about once a month. 

I am very attracted to my husband though, and if I focus on how hot he is, I can definitely get things going. Also, I have a very high desire to please him, not because I think he'll leave me - I know he won't. But because when he is happy, I am happy. I require his happy participation in our lives to enjoy things properly.

I don't understand people who don't care if their spouse is happy in the marriage. I can't be happy, and I mean that literally, if my husband is unhappy with our relationship. When he is happy and loving and connected to me, I feel total joy and contentment. If he is withdrawn and disappointed, I feel sad and it's hard to enjoy life. 

So although I don't require sex in a physical sense very much right now, I absolutely do to keep our emotional bond strong.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

Just to clarify, I don't create GITMO like conditions and never have. Mrs. MEM has some serious control issues and can be cruel when she doesn't get her way. 

My comment had to do with her creating a GITMO like environment for me. And my intolerance of it. I was too passive for a while, brought out her worst. We have been working on that with the help of a good MC. 




john117 said:


> True, because I value the tuition money a bit more than I value her contribution to my emotional well being.
> 
> It would be more emotionally fulfilling to walk out but it's a compromise I'm willing to accept.
> 
> I can make life very, ehem, challenging if need be, and did so. But you know what? Her needs are simple. Laptop boots, network works, work gets done, Netflix works, etc. When you're dealing with someone like that, someone who for all intents and purposes has checked our of life altogether, threatening to make her life like Gitmo is an oxymoron.
> 
> About 4 years ago I did start filling the paperwork - and was going to follow up with it, and she knew it. But it was not over emotional fulfillment. I got my way and a barrel full of USDA Grade A resentment.
> 
> In a couple or three years we will have to take a hard decision that is very money driven. Downsize our home or borrow $200k for my younger girl to go to med school. Once again it is a walkable issue to me.
> 
> I figure, if I'm going to blow up the nest, Angry Birds style, at least let me do it over something more important to me than sex...


----------



## MEM2020

*This resonates*

John,
I chuckled reading this because it became a 'theme' for us. 
Below a certain dollar threshold, I am happy if the other person likes the result. Starbucks, dinner out, new clothing, etc. Doesn't matter whether I would spend money that way, matters that they are happy and the burn rate is within budget. 

This was NOT true for Mrs. MEM. She always had emotional issues with me spending money in a manner that she wouldn't. As time passed she slowly got more - crazy/aggressive/cheap with me. And I started to react with escalating intensity because I had worked very hard so that we didn't need to have financial tension. 

About two months ago she broke the 'last straw' with me and I said: About 10% of our net worth is from an inheritance when my father died (she knew that - was just reminding her). Legally this isn't a 'marital asset' it's mine. I am moving it into an account that will be solely in my name. And the next week I did so. 

And it was a sad day because it represented my acceptance of her dysfunction. 


QUOTE=john117;6905937]To follow up on my own post...

Every action we take has a definite utility value in terms of how it contributes to happiness. Consider two people going for a coffee at Starbucks. One person (happy) may see it as an opportunity to people watch, and drink a latte in the process. Yet another person sees this as a waste of money because their value system is not wired to understand small rewards. To them it's all about the $5 they spend, not the pleasure of what they get.

I deal with stuff like this for a living. Some people understand the pleasure of a $5 latte, some don't. No different than sex or anything else. Their value system says that $5 coffee is unacceptable regardless...[/QUOTE]


----------



## Lyris

I should clarify by saying although my husband would never physically leave me, he would and could emotionally divorce himself from me while remaining married and continuing to live with me.

That's not something I could bear. I could not live with my husband if he didn't love me. 

Also, there have been times in my life when my drive has been higher and I expect that will come again. I have two young children, I'm exhausted a lot if the time and I've been breastfeeding for the past seven years. I don't let that stop me from having sex or initiating sex with my husband. It's too important. And it's always really enjoyable once we start.


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris,
That all makes perfect sense. Mrs. MEM is pretty much the same.

At some level she knows I love her just as much now as I did when 'standard sex' stopped 2 years ago. 

I am grateful that she taught me to separate affection and sex 20+ years ago. That is powerful stuff. I learned how to touch her in a way that makes her feel special - has nothing to do with sex. 

Except that - all that positive association with my touch - is what makes sex a nice experience for her now, even though she doesn't feel much spontaneous desire. 


QUOTE=Lyris;6906417]I should clarify by saying although my husband would never physically leave me, he would and could emotionally divorce himself from me while remaining married and continuing to live with me.

That's not something I could bear. I could not live with my husband if he didn't love me. 

Also, there have been times in my life when my drive has been higher and I expect that will come again. I have two young children, I'm exhausted a lot if the time and I've been breastfeeding for the past seven years. I don't let that stop me from having sex or initiating sex with my husband. It's too important. And it's always really enjoyable once we start.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Lyris said:


> I should clarify by saying although my husband would never physically leave me, he would and could emotionally divorce himself from me while remaining married and continuing to live with me.
> 
> That's not something I could bear. I could not live with my husband if he didn't love me.
> 
> Also, there have been times in my life when my drive has been higher and I expect that will come again. I have two young children, I'm exhausted a lot if the time and I've been breastfeeding for the past seven years. I don't let that stop me from having sex or initiating sex with my husband. It's too important. And it's always really enjoyable once we start.


You are probably one of the LD's that get it. And you are right about needing to find a balance that works... things don't operate in a vacuum and should a spouse decide to withhold then the other spouse being trapped by vows have every right to say screw it (unacceptable situation)and exact equal and opposite on the withholding spouse... its sucks but the alternatives are leaving, cheating or constantly getting the shaft. 

Only one that makes sense is withholding also in a different form to feel a sense of balance and a chance that they will want more otherwise at least its "fair" its making the best out of an unfair situation.

AS for love its always there..its not all about sex. Its about a balance.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> its sucks but the alternatives are leaving, cheating or constantly getting the shaft.
> 
> Only one that makes sense is withholding also in a different form to feel a sense of balance.



Unless one is able to withhold material things (vacations etcetera not the electric bill or groceries ) there's not much to withhold that would balance things.

In another thread I wrote that emotions are like energy. You can't create or destroy emotions in a relationship any more than you can create or destroy energy. You may only be able to convert from one form to another and usually with considerable losses. 

The corollary to the above is that a partner has a fixed amount of energy to provide to the relationship. Additional energy can be converted but not always in an effective way.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> Unless one is able to withhold material things (vacations etcetera not the electric bill or groceries ) there's not much to withhold that would balance things.
> 
> In another thread I wrote that emotions are like energy. You can't create or destroy emotions in a relationship any more than you can create or destroy energy. You may only be able to convert from one form to another and usually with considerable losses.
> 
> The corollary to the above is that a partner has a fixed amount of energy to provide to the relationship. Additional energy can be converted but not always in an effective way.


There are ways of withholding... I just look at my wife like a roommate most of the time and only do things around the house that I would as a single guy don't touch anything of hers, she makes a mess she cleans it up. Which means I operate at my own level and teenage boys level not hers. Any complaints? Water off a ducks back. Sort of drives her nuts... she complains to her friends not me. Perhaps they will knock some sense into her or get her to leave eventually either way I'm OK.

She loves a clean house/help/her standards of perfection (I take care on my stuff only)
I love sex.
Nether of us get what we love. Fair.

Sort of like that old movie FAILSAFE

If she stops cooking I cook for myself and the family..I'm self sufficient and a damn good cook.
Surprisingly her attitude has improved... I limit the "witholding" to that scope one thing/category

Otherwise we are normal. I am happy with the situation. Funny she still talks about the future I guess she just doesn't get it. Maybe one day she will whatever.

Its a lot easier when I live to my standards and not hers, lot less work as I don't need to live in perfection. On permanent strike. Moved on. Easier to not give a crap and leave the drama. Whack on whack off.


----------



## john117

But in her mind withholding sex is more beneficial (higher utility value) than a clean house, ergo....


----------



## usmarriedguy

I do not think the fact that most people are or are not true LD makes any difference. 

This is a personal problem. The only relevant question is why Boston's wife does not want to have sex more often (or he does not like to have it less) The percentage of the population that has an untreatable physical reason for low sex drive is irrelevant. 

While her attitude may be able to be modified by medicine or therapy, or necessity it also may not happen. She has not shown much desire to change so far. But I am not sure that we would have any better luck convincing Boston that sex once a month is a good thing.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> But in her mind withholding sex is more beneficial (higher utility value) than a clean house, ergo....


Possibly but I did pick the one thing that she values *very highly*. Trust me it drives her nuts and she has to work much harder to keep her own perceptions of perfection up... she herself is messy. So in my mind its pretty fair exchange fun watching her have to do stuff while I sit on my duff with a smile on my face.

If she asks I will help but if she doesn't ask...I do what I want which is whatever.

When she asks sometimes I help others...

Her: The Tupperware area is a mess!.. me : I agree
Her: The microwave is dirty,I'm NOT cleaning it ..me:better get one of the kids to clean it not my mess.

The mirrors look like crap she has no idea how to clean mirrors. I choose my own ways of up-keeping the house mirrors are low priority she can research how to get them clean if she wants.

I don't mind cleaning in fact I sort of enjoy it but SOMETHING has to give. Otherwise you drive yourself bonkers with the unfairness of it all.

She had four years of my "understanding" ...times up.
She loses NEW YORK


----------



## john117

If it bothered her enough to have to live "like that" she would have said so. Unless she goes on the Good Housekeeping board (think TAM for housework ) to vent her frustrations about her husband being LD (low dusting :lol: )

Stop talking to her for a month and that may help clarify the message a bit. As it is she may equate sex with housecleaning in terms of priorities and we know who will win there.

Read my thread about multiple issues etc in SIM and you will see that in the case of two people that have been married for a while, have large assets jointly etc, the LD has a considerable advantage. If you're not in that phase of your life yet (i.e. 50s with kids in college) spend your energy thinking of an exit strategy...


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> If it bothered her enough to have to live "like that" she would have said so. Unless she goes on the Good Housekeeping board (think TAM for housework ) to vent her frustrations about her husband being LD (low dusting :lol: )
> 
> Stop talking to her for a month and that may help clarify the message a bit. As it is she may equate sex with housecleaning in terms of priorities and we know who will win there.
> 
> Read my thread about multiple issues etc in SIM and you will see that in the case of two people that have been married for a while, have large assets jointly etc, the LD has a considerable advantage. If you're not in that phase of your life yet (i.e. 50s with kids in college) spend your energy thinking of an exit strategy...


I'm very logical being a man:

I gave her a fair long window to correct her side of the street along with my best effort. 4 years.
I told her about the window
I got her to admit there was a sex life issue, that needed corrected in a timely fashion...she fully agreed. Along with the I'll try, try harder, you won't believe me but I will try, and I like sex.
I also told her once I stopped talking about it that is the time she should worry.

Here we are. For me remaining married offers more than being single... a calculated decision on my part... I enjoy my life and I keep her "trapped" by her vows as well...and I love her and my family.

I'm careful to make sure the REST of our life is normal I treat her in other parts of it as if there is no issue. I'm happy and fun. That also in a way drives her a bit nuts. Its nice to be able to act the way you want without fear of any repercussions.

I have no exit strategy I like being married and love my family and my wife, she is not horrible in fact in many ways shes great just flawed like all of us.
We are going on a vacation as the airline miles needed used up before the miles needed went up... I like vacations and kept them off limits for the four year window.

I know my wife and what button to push. Like she does me.
Funny in a way we get along even better this way... however I do think in time she will break as I've only been doing this new "fairer" stance for a month. She does pay more attention to me...sorta weird in a way. I'm used to no sex so I can maintain this stance indefinitely....no problem. I take care of myself when needed.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"Read my thread about multiple issues etc in SIM and you will see that in the case of two people that have been married for a while, have large assets jointly etc, the LD has a considerable advantage."

The person who can do nothing always has the advantage in any negotiation. You simply place your money, assets, quality of living ahead of the quality of your sex life.


----------



## jld

usmarriedguy said:


> The person who can do nothing always has the advantage in any negotiation. You simply place your money, assets, quality of living ahead of the quality of your sex life.


I am interpreting this a little more broadly to mean that the person who is more independent, who could manage better without the other person in their lives, has the advantage in the relationship, period?


----------



## usmarriedguy

The person who is happy with or willing to accept the status quo. The Syrian govt. has the upper hand in any negotiation because they are willing to continue with the current conditions.


----------



## treyvion

jld said:


> I am interpreting this a little more broadly to mean that the person who is more independent, who could manage better without the other person in their lives, has the advantage in the relationship, period?


No. The one who doesn't mind doing without the sex. The one who doesn't have the money. Because they have nothing to lose and only to gain by dealing with you.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

treyvion said:


> No. The one who doesn't mind doing without the sex. The one who doesn't have the money. Because they have nothing to lose and only to gain by dealing with you.



The person who "has the advantage" is the one holding the other one over a barrel so to speak on anything.

A corollary to that is the one who is happiest is the one not relying on the other for anything.


----------



## Lyris

Trying2figureitout said:


> AS for love its always there..its not all about sex. Its about a balance.


But I need to *feel* loved by him. I need him to make me laugh, and chat to me and want to spend time with me and touch me every time he walks last. I need him to grope me in the kitchen and send me funny things he finds on the Internet.

He won't do any of that if he's unhappy. Apart from the fact that I hate the thought of him being unhappy generally, I also need at least most of what I've written above to be happy myself.

It's not only about sex of course. But I know he needs sex, talking and non sexual touch to stay feeling connected to me.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I am interpreting this a little more broadly to mean that the person who is more independent, who could manage better without the other person in their lives, has the advantage in the relationship, period?



Yes.

I am fiercely independent, by virtue of growing up dirt poor and arriving on the USA with $500. I'm also very resourceful and a great planner. 

My wife arrived with a sizable chest of gold which was used to pay her college and bar tab . She used to be independent, I absolutely loved her for that, yet now she is at the point where she won't even fill her car by herself. Not because she can't but because one does not do such mundane tasks. Aristocracy here we come.


----------



## jld

It's an entitlement philosophy with her? I thought she had BPD.


----------



## john117

Both, but the entitlement attitude predates BPD by a couple decades.

Funny thing. She was "abandoned" by her parents when they had to support multiple kids attending college overseas and they made the decision to reduce - drastically - her funding. She worked fast food for a couple of years while in college and that experience - more than BPD or anything else - was key to messing up her life for decades to come.

So now she feels that the world owes her or something... Good luck with that.


----------



## jld

Wow. People sure are hard to understand.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Wow. People sure are hard to understand.



I can't complain. We were dating when she worked and let's just say I got my money's worth out of the relationship just on the grounds of all the free food she got when we were living together in college.

Good old days


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> LD is as acceptable as any other physical or emotional issue a couple encounters, from cancer to depression to a broken nail.
> 
> What is not acceptable is ignoring it and not communicating or working to resolve it. Most LD's find it perfectly acceptable to coast along. That's where the problem is.


Nail on the head. This is my only issue. Its not that she doesnt want to have sex with me weekly. Its that I remain in the dark as to why and worse, she doesnt care about what it means to me. Care = Action. Not caring = Doing/Saying nothing different. my wife is not caring.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> Nail on the head. This is my only issue. Its not that she doesnt want to have sex with me weekly. Its that I remain in the dark as to why and worse, she doesnt care about what it means to me. Care = Action. Not caring = Doing/Saying nothing different. my wife is not caring.


People don't change until they have to and/or want to....

This is a hard lesson I learned over the past several years and did not initially believe when I started my sexless journey. 

I am through understanding or even trying basically take a whatever attitude after 4 years and decide to stay and take away _* one thing*_ I knew my wife held in high regard... help and the ability to live in a clean house up to HER standards WITH my help.

Guess what...this is the Nicest she has been ever with me basically not caring. She is happy and engages me constantly and does more than I do. I am still sexless because I don't initiate but taking the stance of mutual assured keeping one thing from the other and hitting the others gut...makes a difference.

She offers to do stuff for me even though I will not help her at all unless she specifically asks and only do that scope of what she asks. I take care of my stuff and do the basics only.

For instance the mirrors...she brought it up that she couldn't get our upstairs mirror clean after my son uses some cleaner on it. I told her I would take care of it...and did later that day. That one mirror is sparkling the others still look like crap. I will not touch it anymore until she asks again.

Yesterday when it was time to go from the party I touched her back and let go she turned to me and said "Oh I was hoping you were rubbing my back" so I did and she enjoyed it.

I think there is something to the match the indifference tact with some women like my wife.... i would recommend in light of no movement to try it especially if you are at wits end and have talked the issue out...your wife is NOT DEAF. So shut up and do whatever you deem necessary based on the current situation. Talking does NOT work..actions seem to.

What I will do should we start sex again is ramp up slowly my effort to match hers. I think this is a valid strategy one can take to start at a lower level of matched effort and raise it together.

In reality I am fine with improvement, status-quo or even her getting upset and leaving at this point so for me its all gravy now.

I think of the Pecry Jackson movie when Satan is yelling at his female partner she yells back "What are you going to do I am already in Hell!"

I want what I want and will not put in max effort until I get it!

It works once the other loses all leverage. I feel i have the upper hand and she senses it I believe.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I did the minimum effort plan for several years and it never improved the quality of my sex life. From your wife's perspective she may have to nudge you a bit to do anything "extra" but at least she has someone to do it. The only advantage I see is that it gives the HD a feeling of equity that helps them cope with the situation.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> What I will do should we start sex again is ramp up slowly my effort to match hers. I think this is a valid strategy one can take to start at a lower level of matched effort and raise it together.



It seems to me that this may not work further than a preset point. The scientist in me senses that emotional satisfaction or gratification in a person is constant, and just like energy, new emotions can't be created - only converted.

So you may start with no sex then ramp it up to once in a while slowly then once a month (there ought to be a constant named for it) then once you hit the limit that's it. That is how much they can give. Fantastic sex once a month, meh sex twice a month, or fifteen minutes of corpse sex. With a very keen counter to track effort.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> It seems to me that this may not work further than a preset point. The scientist in me senses that emotional satisfaction or gratification in a person is constant, and just like energy, new emotions can't be created - only converted.
> 
> So you may start with no sex then ramp it up to once in a while slowly then once a month (there ought to be a constant named for it) then once you hit the limit that's it. That is how much they can give. Fantastic sex once a month, meh sex twice a month, or fifteen minutes of corpse sex. With a very keen counter to track effort.


Perhaps, however I BELIEVE we are at an acceptable arrangement currently.

Up to her if SHE wants more. I will match effort and she KNOWS not being deaf what I find ACCEPTABLE in terms of the amount of sex WE SHOULD be having that is in the MIDDLE of our previous drives.

Should she approach that standard then I will return to normal in terms of what I withdrew from her, it will be a slow ramp up on my part should things turn around.

We are going to move up together in sync or stay at this lever or part ways..her choice.
I was VERY CLEAR on my expectations concerning sex life.


----------



## john117

The above assumes the two "commodities" are of equal importance and value to the partners... 

I could stop doing yard work, which my spouse absolutely adores. She could outsource yard work for $150 a month. Unless I outsource sex to some third world country and fly for free there, it's a no brainer. She has more leverage by virtue of the monetary value of the services offered or withheld.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> The above assumes the two "commodities" are of equal importance and value to the partners...
> 
> I could stop doing yard work, which my spouse absolutely adores. She could outsource yard work for $150 a month. Unless I outsource sex to some third world country and fly for free there, it's a no brainer. She has more leverage by virtue of the monetary value of the services offered or withheld.


You wife adores more than one thing I would guess.... its seems to me to find ONE THING that she couldn't replace or wouldn't replace and would bug the heck out of her.

Similar to how no/little sex bugs the heck out of a HD guy.

Ask yourself...would I do this if I didn't have to and am I doing it for her mainly or me mainly?
She probably did the same when she decided to go off normal frequent sex.

Then you might find something that makes a difference and at least evens the field.


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> The above assumes the two "commodities" are of equal importance and value to the partners...
> 
> I could stop doing yard work, which my spouse absolutely adores. She could outsource yard work for $150 a month. Unless I outsource sex to some third world country and fly for free there, it's a no brainer. She has more leverage by virtue of the monetary value of the services offered or withheld.


Ya'll are arguing about a mechanism in which some of the "LD" wives figured they could control and empower themself over a man. They probably chuckle to themself when you complain about it. You can't make them do anything, and just by the virtue of them holding something you want and not releasing it, it gives them power and control on you.

You have to negotiate with this scenario and it's not a "nice" negotiation either.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

treyvion said:


> Ya'll are arguing about a mechanism in which some of the "LD" wives figured they could control and empower themself over a man. They probably chuckle to themself when you complain about it. You can't make them do anything, and just by the virtue of them holding something you want and not releasing it, it gives them power and control on you.
> 
> You have to negotiate with this scenario and it's not a "nice" negotiation either.


It can be nice but usually isn't.....

Look at it this way:

LD makes a unilateral decision

HD has basically a couple choices to make:

1. Accept it
2. Try the honey method
3. Try the withdraw something also
4. Outsource
5. Leave

Outsource and leave are one in the same IMO

Accept it when YOU are reasonable will drive you nuts most likely.

Trying honey may work
Withdraw something also may work

I really think it TOTALLY depends on the woman/spouse.

In the long run trying Honey will drive you nuts

In the long run finding a balance seems best option of all which is my current withdraw mode.

I am not changing from this mode unless she wants to.
Actions more than words.


----------



## MEM2020

Guys,
There's a power dynamic in every marriage. Hopefully that dynamic works mostly like Lyris describes. 

95% of our 'dynamic' works like that. When I'm happy with Mrs. MEM she gets seriously high quality love from me. 

As far as the last 5% - she would flat out tell you that from the get go she bought into this theme when I explained it to her. 

Forsaking all others (the vow of monogamy) is both a commitment we receive from our partner and a responsibility we have to them. These two things, the commitment and the responsibility are like our wedding rings. Their is no clear start to one and end to the other, together they form a ring. 

But ultimately you gotta be willing to live or die on that theme:
Commitment requires responsibility

I take care of my W because I love her. And I love her more when I take care of her. I think that's also true in reverse. Maybe it's universal. 





treyvion said:


> Ya'll are arguing about a mechanism in which some of the "LD" wives figured they could control and empower themself over a man. They probably chuckle to themself when you complain about it. You can't make them do anything, and just by the virtue of them holding something you want and not releasing it, it gives them power and control on you.
> 
> You have to negotiate with this scenario and it's not a "nice" negotiation either.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> Ask yourself...would I do this if I didn't have to and am I doing it for her mainly or me mainly?
> She probably did the same when she decided to go off normal frequent sex.
> 
> Then you might find something that makes a difference and at least evens the field.



Not so fast.

You underestimate the power of getting even with someone. 

If I stop doing A, B, and C around the house then she will stop doing X, Y, and Z. We can escalate it and at the end we'd be living in a pigsty eating squirrels. 

This is assuming none of the A...Z tasks are financially related, i.e. paying the rent. You can't bsrgain sex for rent.

So at the end of the day LD > {{A, B, C}, {X, Y, Z}}

LD's know this and that's why we rarely hear good stories coming out of LD-land...


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> Not so fast.
> 
> You underestimate the power of getting even with someone.
> 
> If I stop doing A, B, and C around the house then she will stop doing X, Y, and Z. We can escalate it and at the end we'd be living in a pigsty eating squirrels.
> 
> This is assuming none of the A...Z tasks are financially related, i.e. paying the rent. You can't bsrgain sex for rent.
> 
> So at the end of the day LD > {{A, B, C}, {X, Y, Z}}
> 
> LD's know this and that's why we rarely hear good stories coming out of LD-land...


The KEY is to being self sufficient and limit it to ONE THING like sex is ONE THING there is literally nothing she can do more to hurt me, so she stops cooking whatever I'll cook. I already do my laundry, pay the bills , kids are mostly self sufficient I can live self sufficiently...if she cheats or leaves oh well. I have no regrets an it is right now what it is. Which so far is better for me. I make enough and kids are later teens almost 18.

I can live in a much messier house than she so if she wants the same standard she needs to work her butt off or accept the lower standard or drumroll......

Meet my needs.

The rest is completely normal so I doubt there will be an escalation.


----------



## john117

MEM, this is the non normal marriage recitation section. The normal marriage recitation section meets on the third floor 

The difference between normal and not normal within the LD context is not intellectual or material, it's just a difference of the perceived value of a physical relationship.

Consider the many reasons the MEM's are together. Play along here:

- companionship: 25
- service (doing things): 15
- financial stability: 10
- children: 20
- love and emotional fulfillment: 20
- physical intimacy: 10

In an LD the last one is more like 0.5%. Maybe 1%. Game over.

So in her mind nobody gets divorced for single digit issues. It's like voting Republican JUST because you dislike a government entity delivering your mail (just an example)


----------



## MEM2020

John,
The flaw in your reasoning is simple. It assumes:
That she doesn't care about stuff that - she doesn't care about

But that isn't true and never has been. 

You joke about your wife bailing out and returning to frigidistan leaving you to fully fund the kids educations but the truth is you seem totally determined to convince yourself the problem is unsolvable. 

And there is a giant difference between paying nothing for college and fully paying undergrad. And these year abroad trips - yikes. 




john117 said:


> MEM, this is the non normal marriage recitation section. The normal marriage recitation section meets on the third floor
> 
> The difference between normal and not normal within the LD context is not intellectual or material, it's just a difference of the perceived value of a physical relationship.
> 
> Consider the many reasons the MEM's are together. Play along here:
> 
> - companionship: 25
> - service (doing things): 15
> - financial stability: 10
> - children: 20
> - love and emotional fulfillment: 20
> - physical intimacy: 10
> 
> In an LD the last one is more like 0.5%. Maybe 1%. Game over.
> 
> So in her mind nobody gets divorced for single digit issues. It's like voting Republican JUST because you dislike a government entity delivering your mail (just an example)


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> Not so fast.
> 
> You underestimate the power of getting even with someone.
> 
> If I stop doing A, B, and C around the house then she will stop doing X, Y, and Z. We can escalate it and at the end we'd be living in a pigsty eating squirrels.
> 
> This is assuming none of the A...Z tasks are financially related, i.e. paying the rent. You can't bsrgain sex for rent.
> 
> So at the end of the day LD > {{A, B, C}, {X, Y, Z}}
> 
> LD's know this and that's why we rarely hear good stories coming out of LD-land...


The "bad" LD's have this big greasy ball of control that they build up everytime they reject you, that you beg, plead or grovel, everytime you bring up sex, etc...

There were "good" LD's I learned about here. These are caring and loving relation partners, who simply don't have their own sex drive. But they enjoy making their mate happy and pleasing them, so while the sex isn't as fulfilling to them as the HD, the act of pleasing their spouse is.


----------



## Lyris

Sex actually is very fulfilling to me. I just don't tend to have it occur to me without encouragement. 

Also, my husband is sexy and fit and awesome in bed. So that makes a difference, to me anyway.


----------



## Cletus

Lyris said:


> Sex actually is very fulfilling to me. I just don't tend to have it occur to me without encouragement.
> 
> Also, my husband is sexy and fit and awesome in bed. So that makes a difference, to me anyway.


That is exactly my wife's situation. Reactive sexuality. Well, except for the sexy, fit, awesome husband part.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Holy crap on the mmsl. I was already in good physical shape, but I I upped the attitude and dressing. Attention flowing in like crazy. What a difference. Wife is being very much more attentive and still hasn't resolved sexless issue. But she's very much more attentive . Hugs kisses I love you'd texts ,,, much more than normal. I'm sure nobody here cares but something is changing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## naiveonedave

Glad for you! Still working for me.

I think why it is working for me is she is seeing that I care for myself more=more self confidence, which is attractive.


----------



## BostonBruins32

naiveonedave said:


> Glad for you! Still working for me.
> 
> I think why it is working for me is she is seeing that I care for myself more=more self confidence, which is attractive.


The attention outside of home is interesting. Granted I'm smiling more and dressing better, so its not my physique but rather attitude. See I actually dont think its working for my wife, as shes being more loving outside the bedroom and texting/calling/emailing me more during the work day (uncharacteristic for her). So shes been more loving outside those doors, but still nothing physical. 

I keep debating whether or not to move to the couch or guest bed at night. Its still internally stressful to lay there feeling unwanted. I dont sulk or anything, it just keeps me up and is extra painful when she is in bed with. I think if I move to the couch or anotehr bed, this is a bold move. And I should make it clear why I want to do so. Thoughts?


----------



## naiveonedave

I think you need to fuel her flames during the out of bedroom stuff and try to get it inside the bedroom. Try to spice up a text reply or something (simple, like what color bra are you wearing?)

Or grab her somewhat forcefully if she hugs you. think butt....

I am kinda going off of what MMSLP would suggest. Going to the couch is not it.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I think a little confrontation is good. A bold move like that is good. I suspect that the increased attention is her insecurity showing, but it's obviously not enough to get her to take real action yet. You playing into the attention, but still acting like you're ok with no sex, then you're confirming that you're not going anywhere which is the point of the increased attention in the first place. She's fishing for reassurance, but trying to catch the most fish possible with the least amount of bait she can get away with.


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think a little confrontation is good. A bold move like that is good. I suspect that the increased attention is her insecurity showing, but it's obviously not enough to get her to take real action yet. You playing into the attention, but still acting like you're ok with no sex, then you're confirming that you're not going anywhere which is the point of the increased attention in the first place. She's fishing for reassurance, but trying to catch the most fish possible with the least amount of bait she can get away with.


excellent point. So internally I'm unhappy and trying not to pull away from her emotionally (because Im living in resentment city). I'm also feeling more confident in myself excluding my relationship. 

So what is the move here?


----------



## naiveonedave

So what is the move here? 

See my post above. That will show her she isn't going far enough.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

You ever watch dogs and cats play? One will chase the other, then the one chasing will turn around and run and the other will chase.

You ever watch kids play? The kid with all the toys has a whole stack that they haven't touched in months. But as soon as the other kid wants to play with one of those toys, they get possessive and no longer want to share.

It's the nature of animals, and your wife is no different. You want to be chased? Start running.


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> excellent point. So internally I'm unhappy and trying not to pull away from her emotionally (because Im living in resentment city). I'm also feeling more confident in myself excluding my relationship.
> 
> So what is the move here?


I think you consolidate your gains before reaching for more. Tell her you've noticed, tell her you like it, tell her why you think she's changed her behavior, tell her that you will keep working n you whether she keeps it up or reverts back. See what she says.

Then think about bringing up sex. But I don't know what I'm talking about.


----------



## Tron

1812overture said:


> I think you consolidate your gains before reaching for more. Tell her you've noticed, tell her you like it, tell her why you think she's changed her behavior, tell her that you will keep working n you whether she keeps it up or reverts back. See what she says.
> 
> Then think about bringing up sex. But I don't know what I'm talking about.


I would not do this. Discussion is pointless. Less talk more action. The message is delivered just as quickly when you simply ask her why she is being all loving now? Then walk away and disconnect even more.

Status quo for a short time, maybe a week. Then take the next step.

BTW, what kind of reaction is she seeing from you as a result of this new attention?


----------



## usmarriedguy

How long has it been?
How many times has she rejected you since last time?


----------



## john117

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think a little confrontation is good. A bold move like that is good. I suspect that the increased attention is her insecurity showing, but it's obviously not enough to get her to take real action yet. You playing into the attention, but still acting like you're ok with no sex, then you're confirming that you're not going anywhere which is the point of the increased attention in the first place. She's fishing for reassurance, but trying to catch the most fish possible with the least amount of bait she can get away with.



Nailed it.

If it works, and at that stage it often does, then the need for reassurance overcomes the resistance for sex. If it does not... Surprise.

What I find disconcerting tho is that the root cause has not been identified. That by itself is not a guarantee of success but still...


----------



## naiveonedave

I am with Tron and WOM. You need to push while she is insecure, almost straight out of MMSLP.


----------



## BostonBruins32

naiveonedave said:


> I am with Tron and WOM. You need to push while she is insecure, almost straight out of MMSLP.


So I'm not sure if shes insecure. I get the point, but i dont think shes fearing anything yet. Shes not around me while I'm at work or at store and receiving positive attention from others. The only change is her texting or calling more. And being the one to initiate hugs kisses etc more

I think i need to continue the path. Confident. Doing my own thing. I don't compliment how she looks and I dont sit anywhere near where shes changing, as I used to (i now leave the room, acting like i'm busy doing something if she starts to dress or undress). I think my angle, not intentionally, is that it could be starting to appear that I dont NEED her.

This jives with my telling her a week ago that I dont want or need her to make me happy. That I'm no longer looking to her for my source of happiness. I need to make myself happy. This got her emotional. good.


----------



## naiveonedave

She is insecure, that is why she is giving you attention. 
I kinda like your angle, but man, if she is giving, push the envelope, just once to see if you can get her to go...


----------



## BostonBruins32

naiveonedave said:


> She is insecure, that is why she is giving you attention.
> I kinda like your angle, but man, if she is giving, push the envelope, just once to see if you can get her to go...


Shes still comfortable on some level. I want her 100% uneasy. I am going to push further and up game. I'm not going anywhere near sexual activity with her until I see more fear in her eyes.

I sound like a coach in the 3q, up by 3TDs. Step on thier throat and dont let them score.


----------



## john117

And what happens when she takes this as a sign you've given up?

If she's convinced you won't bail on her you could have a body fit for a bodybuilding contest and she'll diffuse the situation with cute texts and that's all if no sex is what she wants.

Also trust your feelings. I did the "let her initiate" routine last year and even turned her down a bunch of times (she was furious :lol: wonder why). We did have some really great sex but frequency did not increase, her desire did not increase, and the only measurable result was that I woke up the next day feeling I had just had a one night stand. Totally meaningless. 

What scared me was not the frequency part but the meaningless part. You'll know it when you see it. I hope you don't. It's pretty ugly, or was for me at last. Nothing to do with what my wife did or said, just my interpretation.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
YES

As to this whole bit about giving up. That's crap. Let me be precise:
- You are clearly not giving up on YOU, quite the opposite 
- She damn well better worry you will give up on the marriage because if she keeps ignoring you sexually, you WILL. Your current behavior constitutes honest communication. 

I do believe that you ought to utilize the opportunity if it presents itself to convey that the marriage is broken. You absolutely should not raise the topic, but if for example she mentions the idea of another child you might flatly say: There is no way I would bring another child into a broken marriage. 

Nothing else just that. And don't let her drag or bait you into a conversation about what that means or why you think the marriage is broken. Including - don't let her get away with: But we have been getting along so much better.

You can end it with a simple declarative statement:
If you want to fix it, fix it. Pretending everything is ok is a total non starter with me. 




QUOTE=BostonBruins32;6966834]Shes still comfortable on some level. I want her 100% uneasy. I am going to push further and up game. I'm not going anywhere near sexual activity with her until I see more fear in her eyes.

I sound like a coach in the 3q, up by 3TDs. Step on thier throat and dont let them score.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Tron

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> YES
> 
> As to this whole bit about giving up. That's crap. Let me be precise:
> - You are clearly not giving up on YOU, quite the opposite
> - She damn well better worry you will give up on the marriage because if she keeps ignoring you sexually, you WILL. Your current behavior constitutes honest communication.
> 
> I do believe that you ought to utilize the opportunity if it presents itself to convey that the marriage is broken. You absolutely should not raise the topic, but if for example she mentions the idea of another child you might flatly say: There is no way I would bring another child into a broken marriage.
> 
> Nothing else just that. And don't let her drag or bait you into a conversation about what that means or why you think the marriage is broken. Including - don't let her get away with: But we have been getting along so much better.
> 
> You can end it with a simple declarative statement:
> If you want to fix it, fix it. Pretending everything is ok is a total non starter with me.


Exactly.


----------



## MEM2020

*The Cure*

Boston,
This board is full of men who have victimized themselves. 

After their first children they, like you went off the sexual cliff into the pit of despair. 

And then their wives gave them a little sex for a month and suddenly said 'let's have another baby'. And the men obliged only to learn that their temporary sexual oasis was but a mirage. 

There are no guarantees in life however the approach below maximizes the likelihood of preventing that result. 

Magically sex improves and then the procreative campaign begins. It might be overt, or covert. The covert approach might start with this: She initiates and then at the moment you reach for the condom she says:
- "I just had/about to have my period so we are 'safe' " and/or
- Do you have to wear that thing I 'hate' condoms and/or
- I am on the pill, why are you putting that on

The best response is: I'm just being careful because I'm not ready to even think about another child right now. 

------
If you stay firm eventually she will ask 'why' you are so closed to the chance of another child even though she knows the answer. 

And that's when you have an opportunity to break the pattern. For example, you suggest some rules of engagement. In our house we have some very simple rules:
Mine:
- Don't initiate when she obviously doesn't want to (fatigue, emotional distress, etc)
- Don't press her if she asks if we can connect tomorrow. I don't even ask why. If she says 'can we connect tomorrow'? I just say sure. She doesn't have to explain or justify. 
- Don't tolerate any teasing and forgetting or teasing and rejecting (she only teased and rejected once - I made it instantly clear that was a 'never to be repeated' mistake)
- Don't grope - she loves my touch because it's all about her, not a gateway to the bedroom
- Once we start, I am 100 percent focused on her/us
- If she doesn't come I don't complain/interrogate 

Hers:
- Don't reject, defer til tomorrow and then follow through
- Don't even defer if it's been a while and I say 'I WANT you tonight'
- Don't wait until she is dead tired to get into bed when we intend to connect
- Once we start she is 100 percent focused on me/us
- No pretending to come - she never has pretended - from the start. Partly because the first few times it 'didn't' happen for her I was very low key about it. She knew I was happy to do whatever possible to please her so this wasn't selfishness on my part. And I sincerely thanked her for not pretending - and she believed me. 

------
The biggest one though is the option of deferring until tomorrow. That said, if she has a terrible day tomorrow, I absolutely don't initiate nor do I accept her initiation if guilt driven. The 'tomorrow option' isn't a 'contract', it is however a good faith commitment and is treated as such. 




QUOTE=BostonBruins32;6966834]Shes still comfortable on some level. I want her 100% uneasy. I am going to push further and up game. I'm not going anywhere near sexual activity with her until I see more fear in her eyes.

I sound like a coach in the 3q, up by 3TDs. Step on thier throat and dont let them score.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jld

*Re: The Cure*



MEM11363 said:


> This board is full of men who have victimized themselves. So true. And when we try to help them, we are accused of not holding the other person responsible.
> 
> - Don't initiate when she obviously doesn't want to (fatigue, emotional distress, etc) I say initiate whenever you feel like it. She might surprise you.
> - Don't press her if she asks if we can connect tomorrow. I don't even ask why. If she says 'can we connect tomorrow'? I just say sure. She doesn't have to explain or justify. i certainly have to explain or justify. I think it is a great way to pull a woman out of herself and get her going. She'll probably be glad you did.
> - Don't tolerate any teasing and forgetting or teasing and rejecting (she only teased and rejected once - I made it instantly clear that was a 'never to be repeated' mistake)Take charge. Make it happen. It's more fun that way.
> - Don't grope - she loves my touch because it's all about her, not a gateway to the bedroom. Both are nice.
> - Once we start, I am 100 percent focused on her/us Excellent.
> - If she doesn't come I don't complain/interrogate That's good. Make her feel successful anyway.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> YES
> 
> As to this whole bit about giving up. That's crap. Let me be precise:
> - You are clearly not giving up on YOU, quite the opposite
> - She damn well better worry you will give up on the marriage because if she keeps ignoring you sexually, you WILL. Your current behavior constitutes honest communication.
> 
> I do believe that you ought to utilize the opportunity if it presents itself to convey that the marriage is broken. You absolutely should not raise the topic, but if for example she mentions the idea of another child you might flatly say: There is no way I would bring another child into a broken marriage.
> 
> Nothing else just that. And don't let her drag or bait you into a conversation about what that means or why you think the marriage is broken. Including - don't let her get away with: But we have been getting along so much better.
> 
> You can end it with a simple declarative statement:
> If you want to fix it, fix it. Pretending everything is ok is a total non starter with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=BostonBruins32;6966834]Shes still comfortable on some level. I want her 100% uneasy. I am going to push further and up game. I'm not going anywhere near sexual activity with her until I see more fear in her eyes.
> 
> I sound like a coach in the 3q, up by 3TDs. Step on thier throat and dont let them score.


[/QUOTE]

yeah, i dont know that I care if she thinks I'm giving up. I'm not being an ******* to her. I'm still holding her hand in the car when she reaches over. I still kiss her good night and say I love you. I am still doing my share at the house etc.. 

have I given up on the sex thing? the initiating yes for now to clear my head. At this point I yearn to know what she's really thinking more than just having sex. As I've said before, if she is out of love or not attracted to me, I want to hear her say that and begin the process of moving on. If she could articulate that she is in love with me but is in a funk, that would be fine too. My point is I just want some clarity, as living in a fog sucks.

Luckily I'm seeing improvements in myself. But we're all human. We all want to be desired and loved. I feel neither of those from my wife, and haven not felt them in a while.


----------



## jld

What do you think about stopping the affection, just as an experiment?


----------



## Sudra

This thread is horrifying to read. So many men who are so clueless about women... It really does frighten me how many of you view this issue...


----------



## jld

Sudra said:


> This thread is horrifying to read. So many men who are so clueless about women... It really does frighten me how many of you view this issue...


Please explain. We are all here to learn.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> What do you think about stopping the affection, just as an experiment?


I could. My angle has been this:

When she first needed "some space", she came back after a few days and we talked about what was on her mind that drove this. I explained how serious I take this and how important these 'faults' or behaviors were for me to work on. So I did, from that minute on. Essentially I have been working on everything to improve myself and treatment towards her that I could. I'm essentially loading up my fictional bank account with improvements and action to make sure I have done my share. She is running out of excuses, and thats sort of my intention here. 

My thought of if I've done everything on my end to be a better man, then she is out of excuses. If she is out of excuses and will not change things on her end, then we have no marriage. And I've expressed this to her. And I've expressed that I'm comfortable with this. I would be dissapointed, but comfortable.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Sudra said:


> This thread is horrifying to read. So many men who are so clueless about women... It really does frighten me how many of you view this issue...


This is why I said women please chime in. Assuming you are a woman, I would love your perspective.


----------



## naiveonedave

BB - are the things you are doing alpha or beta? I think women ask for men to be betas, when they want alphas. You may be doing the wrong stuff. Both sexes have been conditioned to tell men to be more beta to get the girl, to the point of there aren't many alphas left.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Essentially I have been working on everything to improve myself and treatment towards her that I could. I'm essentially loading up my fictional bank account with improvements and action to make sure I have done my share. She is running out of excuses, and thats sort of my intention here.


I think you are fast approaching the point where you have to stop the deposits. You are meeting all of her needs and she is returning the affection in the way she wants to, not in the way that she knows you need. If she is not willing to invest in the marriage, that is make deposits into your fictional bank account, why should you?

Right now, your actions are undercutting your message. You hold her hand, cuddle with her, kiss her good night. You give her everything she needs for the marriage. Why would she believe your words when your actions so clearly tell her that things are fine? Where is her real discomfort?



> My thought of if I've done everything on my end to be a better man, then she is out of excuses. If she is out of excuses and will not change things on her end, then we have no marriage. And I've expressed this to her. And I've expressed that I'm comfortable with this. I would be dissapointed, but comfortable.


What did you express? Because that reads like you would be disappointed but comfortable living in that marriage.


----------



## Mr The Other

Anon Pink said:


> Any sort of affection.
> Taking care of her car.
> Helping her in with groceries.
> Any acts of service a husband routinely does for a wife
> Any acts of affection a husband routinely does for his wife.
> Any words of affirmation a husband routinely gives to his wife.
> Household support that doesn't compromise the well being of the children.
> 
> Take the Emotional Needs Questionnaire together with your wife. Take the 5 love languages test too. Once you know what her top 2-3 needs are, when she ignores yours, remind her that you do NOT ignore hers.
> 
> A hand job at the very minimum is so damn simple and if done well can be so damn enjoyable! So she doesn't want to have sex... Okay she doesn't have to have sex to make you feel loved in the love language that speaks to you.


Might I suggest that if a woman wrote in with this issue, you would not tell her off for being lazy. There are also other posts asssuming the opposite, that he is too meek and submissive, it might be, but unless we assume she is sleeping around, the most likely thing is that she has a low sex drive.

If she does not feel like sex, then hand jobs etc are important.

To the OP, I feel you are making sure that you deserve sex. Sadly, sex does not work like that and if you think like this, you will always put pressure on yourself.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Mr The Other said:


> Might I suggest that if a woman wrote in with this issue, you would not tell her off for being lazy. There are also other posts asssuming the opposite, that he is too meek and submissive, it might be, but unless we assume she is sleeping around, the most likely thing is that she has a low sex drive.
> 
> If she does not feel like sex, then hand jobs etc are important.
> 
> To the OP, I feel you are making sure that you deserve sex. Sadly, sex does not work like that and if you think like this, you will always put pressure on yourself.


HJs or BJs are non existant. Again, I'm ok if she doesnt want to have sex, but I'm more concerned with her disregard for my needs and or her lack of empathy to her husband. bigger issue I'd say. 

I don't think I deserve sex. Instead I enjoy and need sex both physiologically and emotionally. So deserve is the wrong word. As the other posters have pointed out, I need to make my actions match my words. IE I need to make it clear I won't stay in a sexless marriage where my wife lacks attraction to me. Then I need to act on it <-- easier said than done, i admit.

Hey I'm just frustrated. And I'm sorting through this. So a lot of my commentary makes no sense. I'm just dissapointed that it feels like I basically have a roomate that I pay for 90% of, that c0ckbl0cks me, that criticizes me, and that doesn't REALLY care about what I think. ugh.. Oh me oh my, get over yourself BB.


----------



## jld

I would not say get over yourself. I say keep standing up for yourself.

And great that you are willing to leave the marriage. That is very healthy. Win/Win or No Deal.

I still don't get all this sexlessness. Just blows my mind. My dh would never tolerate it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> I would not say get over yourself. I say keep standing up for yourself.
> 
> And great that you are willing to leave the marriage. That is very healthy. Win/Win or No Deal.
> 
> I still don't get all this sexlessness. Just blows my mind. My dh would never tolerate it.


If just gf/bf, i would have bailed. If just married without kids, I would have offered ultimatum yesterday. With a kid, I'm very sensitive to level of effort vs consequence.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I still don't get all this sexlessness. Just blows my mind. My dh would never tolerate it.



Yet society would not look kindly upon a man cheating, withholding anything available to him like financial resources, divorcing, or active confrontation when faced with a sexless marriage.

Even the acronym soup books tell us that it's our fault and we must IMPROVE or DETACH or WASH DISHES or what not instead of focusing on the root cause.

Sounds fair and equitable


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> If just gf/bf, i would have bailed. If just married without kids, I would have offered ultimatum yesterday. With a kid, I'm very sensitive to level of effort vs consequence.


We have five children. I get what you are saying.

You are doing great. Just keep it up.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Yet society would not look kindly upon a man cheating, withholding anything available to him like financial resources, divorcing, or active confrontation when faced with a sexless marriage.
> 
> Even the acronym soup books tell us that it's our fault and we must IMPROVE or DETACH or WASH DISHES or what not instead of focusing on the root cause.
> 
> Sounds fair and equitable


It seems like divorce is the main option for dealing with sexless marriage. And it seems like at least some women will respond to this.

But people seem to have good results with less dramatic approaches, like MMSL.


----------



## naiveonedave

117 - that is part of the problem here, society tells both sexes to do more or less the opposite of what needs to happen.


----------



## naiveonedave

JLD - MMSLP actually has an end game of D, if needs are not met eventually.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> JLD - MMSLP actually has an end game of D, if needs are not met eventually.


Good. Win/Win or No Deal.


----------



## Mr The Other

BostonBruins32 said:


> HJs or BJs are non existant. Again, I'm ok if she doesnt want to have sex, but I'm more concerned with her disregard for my needs and or her lack of empathy to her husband. bigger issue I'd say.
> 
> I don't think I deserve sex. Instead I enjoy and need sex both physiologically and emotionally. So deserve is the wrong word. As the other posters have pointed out, I need to make my actions match my words. IE I need to make it clear I won't stay in a sexless marriage where my wife lacks attraction to me. Then I need to act on it <-- easier said than done, i admit.
> 
> Hey I'm just frustrated. And I'm sorting through this. So a lot of my commentary makes no sense. I'm just dissapointed that it feels like I basically have a roomate that I pay for 90% of, that c0ckbl0cks me, that criticizes me, and that doesn't REALLY care about what I think. ugh.. Oh me oh my, get over yourself BB.


Here is a comparison. You are having sex and you come first. Do you help finish her off or declare that as you are no longer interested it is not an option? I am assuming that it is the former. You are right, she is not being reasonable and doing extra housework in response to such behaviour is not the answer.

The other standard line is to man-up. Which declares that you should be very sexually confident when not getting sex, which is not as straight forward and posters might suggest.

Your confidence seems to be badly affected. You are trying to do everything to ensure you do not deserve this, however, were you in a more confident place you would realise that you do not deserve this ****. Do not worry about the housework, do not cheat, but consider yourself broadly free of marital responsibility for a while and enjoy living life. Let yourself get back to your own self and take time when you can to relax and get your confidence back.

Once you are feeling refreshed, make decisions then.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> It seems like divorce is the main option for dealing with sexless marriage. And it seems like at least some women will respond to this.
> 
> 
> 
> But people seem to have good results with less dramatic approaches, like MMSL.



In mild LD cases where a harried wife of a few years with a toddler or two has no understanding of the importance of physical intimacy, yea, it works.

In hardcore LD cases it's as effective as these little deer alert whistles on car bumpers.


----------



## Mr The Other

john117 said:


> In mild LD cases where a harried wife of a few years with a toddler or two has no understanding of the importance of physical intimacy, yea, it works.
> 
> In hardcore LD cases it's as effective as these little deer alert whistles on car bumpers.


Personally, I would never recommend bluffing.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> HJs or BJs are non existant. Again, I'm ok if she doesnt want to have sex, but I'm more concerned with her disregard for my needs and or her lack of empathy to her husband. bigger issue I'd say.
> 
> I don't think I deserve sex. Instead I enjoy and need sex both physiologically and emotionally. So deserve is the wrong word. As the other posters have pointed out, I need to make my actions match my words. IE I need to make it clear I won't stay in a sexless marriage where my wife lacks attraction to me. Then I need to act on it <-- easier said than done, i admit.
> 
> Hey I'm just frustrated. And I'm sorting through this. So a lot of my commentary makes no sense. I'm just dissapointed that it feels like I basically have a roomate that I pay for 90% of, that c0ckbl0cks me, that criticizes me, and that doesn't REALLY care about what I think. ugh.. Oh me oh my, get over yourself BB.


I'm sure this is how my husband felt during our sexless years. It hurts to read this. That he felt so down and disconnected, unloved and unappreciated, yet kept on showing up each day for work and each night for dinner.

Makes me sad for him and frustrated at him, all at the same time. Why did he never confront me, head on, try to understand what was happening? Water under the bridge at this point....

Anyway, Boston, I'm so sorry you're going through this. One day your wife will realize how screwed up this sexlessness is....


----------



## john117

Bluffing works if you don't know the other person well. (Well is the operative word).

If you do know them well it's like playing poker with the cards visible, hence bluffing does not work. A wife of 5 years knows her husband far less than a wife of 25 years.

If one can bluff their partner of 25 years they are either very good actors or their wife is not paying attention..


----------



## naiveonedave

Anon - he probably was subscribing to the theory that he had to be more beta, but was at his wits end or unwilling to do more. 

I really think the PC world we live in messes this up. Sex dwindled because he was betaman and felt he had to be more beta, when teh opposite is what was needed.


----------



## usmarriedguy

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm ok if she doesnt want to have sex, but I'm more concerned with her disregard for my needs and or her lack of empathy to her husband. bigger issue I'd say.


This is interesting.
Well it sounds like she got the message and is meeting your needs for the time being then. 

I do have to wonder though how long this sexless thing is going to be OK. I thought the whole point was that you wanted more sex and not just affection.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> This is interesting.
> Well it sounds like she got the message and is meeting your needs for the time being then.
> 
> I do have to wonder though how long this sexless thing is going to be OK. I thought the whole point was that you wanted more sex and not just affection.


The lack of sex creates hurt feelings. Creates tension, anxiety, lack of self confidence etc in the relationship from my perspective. But my logical side says, well maybe there is a reason. With a good reason, our sexless history could make sense and we could make some changes going forward to try to improve. And if there was a logical reason offered, I would nto lose sleep thinking its because of this or that or something else. My logical side also says that if not given a reason, other than "not my thing, sorry", then I'm not ok with this. Because "not my thing" doesnt jive with "the sex is really good when we have it" or the bait and switch from 5yrs prior to marriage and 4 years since etc.. 

So if I wasnt being fed the company line of "not my thing", I would feel better. I'm a solution guy. "Not my thing" and not going to work on it (through talking or action) means there is a greater issue. Greater issue is my concern. Does that clarify a bit?


----------



## usmarriedguy

No, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

If I can't understand what it is you want after 46 pages than I have to wonder what your wife thinks of all this.

You do want sex, you don't want sex. 

So you want her to go back and rehash why you where not having sex? 

If she simply says that she enjoyed sex more when the relationship was new and now she can do without it that isn't good enough for you? 

She needs some reason other than she does not need much sex?

It seems to me that you asked her to provide more confirmation that she loves you and she responded.

And for her effort she seems to get escalation into "Operation Cold Shoulder II". 

Can you just cut to the chase and give her some clear instructions about what it will take for you to get over it?


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> Anon - he probably was subscribing to the theory that he had to be more beta, but was at his wits end or unwilling to do more.
> 
> I really think the PC world we live in messes this up. Sex dwindled because he was betaman and felt he had to be more beta, when teh opposite is what was needed.


Does that right, AP?


----------



## Cletus

naiveonedave said:


> Anon - he probably was subscribing to the theory that he had to be more beta, but was at his wits end or unwilling to do more.
> 
> I really think the PC world we live in messes this up. Sex dwindled because he was betaman and felt he had to be more beta, when teh opposite is what was needed.


From what I've read of Anon's posts, her husband had nothing to do with her lack of interest in sex, and turning that problem around was an issue she both noticed and undertook of her own accord.

It turns out that there are plenty of women out there who aren't very interested in sex, and it has little or nothing to do with what type of man they married or what his is or is not willing to do about it.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> From what I've read of Anon's posts, her husband had nothing to do with her lack of interest in sex, and turning that problem around was an issue she both noticed and undertook of her own accord.
> 
> It turns out that there are plenty of women out there who aren't very interested in sex, and it has little or nothing to do with what type of man they married or what his is or is not willing to do about it.


Then why is MMSLP selling? Why is NMMNG selling?

Did you read GettingIt's story?


----------



## treyvion

Cletus said:


> From what I've read of Anon's posts, her husband had nothing to do with her lack of interest in sex, and turning that problem around was an issue she both noticed and undertook of her own accord.
> 
> It turns out that there are plenty of women out there who aren't very interested in sex, and it has little or nothing to do with what type of man they married or what his is or is not willing to do about it.


There was a study I read about that proved that women were more highly sexual than men, and it was the men who were LD's... I blamed that on feministic responses that implied women were dominant in every area over a man.

It was more normal over the years to hear of men not gettin enough from home.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Then why is MMSLP selling? Why is NMMNG selling?
> 
> 
> 
> Did you read GettingIt's story?



For the same reason every other self help book sells. Publicity and a reasonable chance of success for a narrowly defined subset of the population.

Millions of people have read "stop walking on eggshells" (BPD related) a lot of good that has done...


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Then why is MMSLP selling? Why is NMMNG selling?
> 
> Did you read GettingIt's story?


Because they work - sometimes and for some people. Because they sell hope. Why do diet products sell like hotcakes when most of them are nothing but snake oil? Why is the holy grail of pharmaceuticals the female Viagra?

People are complex, and relationships even more so. If you come up with a one-size-fits-all solution to create passion and desire among LD women, and it works, you'll make money beyond your wildest dreams.

Don't quit your day job just yet.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anon Pink said:


> I'm sure this is how my husband felt during our sexless years. It hurts to read this. That he felt so down and disconnected, unloved and unappreciated, yet kept on showing up each day for work and each night for dinner.
> 
> Makes me sad for him and frustrated at him, all at the same time. Why did he never confront me, head on, try to understand what was happening? Water under the bridge at this point....
> 
> Anyway, Boston, I'm so sorry you're going through this. One day your wife will realize how screwed up this sexlessness is....


He likely didn't confront you because he's just not as sexual as you are. He was "ok with it". He felt that other things in your relationship were more important than sex. He didn't want to open some can of worms that might include some hard work he might have to do himself. He had a lazy approach, many people who aren't that sexual are like that.

My ex-h was a lot like that, too.


----------



## usmarriedguy

jld said:


> Then why is MMSLP selling? Why is NMMNG selling?
> 
> Did you read GettingIt's story?


Snake oil has always sold very well but that does not mean it works. 

Not that they are in fact a sham. They have lots of good general advice, I'm just saying.


----------



## Anon Pink

naiveonedave said:


> Anon - he probably was subscribing to the theory that he had to be more beta, but was at his wits end or unwilling to do more.
> 
> I really think the PC world we live in messes this up. Sex dwindled because he was betaman and felt he had to be more beta, when teh opposite is what was needed.





Cletus said:


> From what I've read of Anon's posts, her husband had nothing to do with her lack of interest in sex, and turning that problem around was an issue she both noticed and undertook of her own accord.
> 
> It turns out that there are plenty of women out there who aren't very interested in sex, and it has little or nothing to do with what type of man they married or what his is or is not willing to do about it.


He was not beta man. He was absent man. He didn't push any vacuums or help with laundry, or help with the kids but he did take car of the cars and helped wth the dishes after dinner most nights.

Yes, our sex problem was 98% me! but our relationship quickly went from fun and loving to parental routine with him working and bringing in a pay check then watching TV and falling asleep on the couch.

Yes, our sex problem was 98% my fault. When sex dried up, he shut down and tuned out entirely and that's where he stayed for 15 years.

You'd think he would have been having affairs, getting it elsewhere no longer interested in his wife who was no longer interested in sex. He never tried to push a conversation, he never asked what was wrong, he never wondered if HE could do anything different, he simply accepted it for what it was and kept working each day and coming home each night.

That's what I find so sad. The acceptance of a miserable and disconnected life!


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> He likely didn't confront you because he's just not as sexual as you are. He was "ok with it". He felt that other things in your relationship were more important than sex. He didn't want to open some can of worms that might include some hard work he might have to do himself. He had a lazy approach, many people who aren't that sexual are like that.
> 
> My ex-h was a lot like that, too.


Spot on FW. But now a days, I don't think he could ever accept going back to the way we were.


----------



## Cletus

Anon Pink said:


> That's what I find so sad. The acceptance of a miserable and disconnected life!


Let me not be the first to tell you that constantly fighting over it ain't no picnic either. Acceptance that isn't accompanied by rancor is the healthiest option when you can manage it.


----------



## jld

AP, how can you say it was 98% you? If he was absent man, or passive man, that wasn't your fault. 

Don't men know they have to listen, really listen, and really love their wives, in the way the wives define love? And then there need to be some enforceable limits in there, too.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus said:


> Let me not be the first to tell you that constantly fighting over it ain't no picnic either. Acceptance that isn't accompanied by rancor is the healthiest option when you can manage it.


If a couple hasn't tried sex therapy, then I don't think they should move to the acceptance stage. "Not constantly fighting" isn't better than actually trying everything you can first.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Cletus said:


> Let me not be the first to tell you that constantly fighting over it ain't no picnic either. Acceptance that isn't accompanied by rancor is the healthiest option when you can manage it.



No no. It must be the mans laziness and LD. You just don't get it!


----------



## Faithful Wife

"Not constantly fighting" is certainly better than "unbridled bitterness".


----------



## jld

Okay, I would like to retract something. A friend has just told me a bit more about MMSLP. I bought the book but haven't done more than skimmed it. It's really not my kind of book. But I felt I had to offer more than just the divorce option to people.

What I think works with a wife is to love her, really love her, in the way that she defines love. She needs attention, affection, patience, kindness, and she needs you to listen to her. When you have saturated her like this, you can set some reasonable limits in regard to sex, and other things, too. And if she can't accept them, then I think you have to call the relationship off. 

My dh is French, and he spent many months at the beginning of our relationship just listening to me for hours and hours and hours. He was incredibly patient and kind. It was such a healing experience. He just gave and gave and gave, and my trust in him grew and grew and grew. And 8 months into it, he took me to France to meet his family.

And I *****ed most of the time I was there. 

The shops were closed on Sunday, the elevators were too small, the restaurants were only open for a few hours at a time, the meals were too long, etc. etc. etc.

And finally dh said to me one night, "If you really don't like France, I don't think we can get married."

I froze.

I had invested 8 months, the most stable 8 months of my life, in that man. I did not want to lose him. I shut up and started finding all kinds of positive things to say about France. And 5 months later we got married. And 20 years on, I still have good things to say about France. 

Relationships need to be Win/Win or No Deal. I am sure there are extenuating circumstances, but in general, I think this holds.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> AP, how can you say it was 98% you? If he was absent man, or passive man, that wasn't your fault.
> 
> Don't men know they have to listen, really listen, and really love their wives, in the way the wives define love? And then there need to be some enforceable limits in there, too.


A necessary but not always sufficient prerequisite.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> Spot on FW. But now a days, I don't think he could ever accept going back to the way we were.


So how was he not as sexual as you are if you were not wanting sex either?


----------



## Faithful Wife

TAG...even now it is obvious he isn't as sexual as she is....not by a long run...and now they DO have sex.


----------



## naiveonedave

Cletus - they are not one size fits all. that is your mistake. 

If it truly is HD vs LD and your wife won't accomodate after you changing as is suggested in MMSLP and NMMNG, you have 2 choices, suffer or D. I won't suffer. MMSLP is working for me. If you truly try to follow some of it, you will get ot the HD/LD pretty quickly I think. Then it is up to you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cletus has the option of not suffering too, because that is something we have control over. Don't be absurd in saying that suffering or divorce are the only two options.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> TAG...even now it is obvious he isn't as sexual as she is....not by a long run...and now they DO have sex.


Your working theory (based on this and other posts) seems to be that people who are of higher sexuality will never suppress that part of themselves, even if they would do so for other feelings. Thus, if he was very sexual, he would not have put up with so little sex.

Yet AP did the same. So I am trying to understand why him suppressing it is evidence of him not being sexual, while hers is not? Why his current behavior could not be due to anything but him not being as sexual?

He may well not be as sexual now. I think people change, particular as aging changes hormone patterns. But the certainty in which you categorize his as always being of low sexual desire his entire life seems unsupported.


----------



## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> Cletus has the option of not suffering too, because that is something we have control over. Don't be absurd in saying that suffering or divorce are the only two options.


Are you suggesting sex therapy as the other option?


----------



## usmarriedguy

My wife is not much of a talker. I would say added up over 15 years I have had to put in a good 10 hours of listening.

I think LDs generally defy what we HDs consider normal.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TAG - I'm basing it all on just what Anon has said about their lives together.

Highly sexual people do suppress themselves, all the time...but they will then turn to masturbation and fantasy, typically (or sometimes cheating). Which Anon did do (MB and fantasy)...are you aware of how extremely sexual Anon really is? I don't know if her H is lowly sexual as much as he is just way less sexual than she is. She's way up there.


----------



## Faithful Wife

jld...Yes sex therapy but also, some people can accept a situation they don't like and not be bitter or suffer.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

naiveonedave said:


> If it truly is HD vs LD and your wife won't accomodate after you changing as is suggested in MMSLP and NMMNG, you have 2 choices, suffer or D. I won't suffer. MMSLP is working for me. If you truly try to follow some of it, you will get ot the HD/LD pretty quickly I think. Then it is up to you.


I have to disagree.

I am a big advocate of both of these books. But they don't work all the time. They help a lot, and certainly helped me. But they are not fool proof. There are lots of reasons for LD and some won't respond to MMSLP.

But that does not mean folks should not try them. My grandfather had high cholesterol. He tried diet and exercise. While it helped in the beginning, his is a genetic problem that only medicine could fix after a certain point. That does not mean the diet and exercise changes were a bad thing. Sometimes, you have to try a bunch of different things before you figure out what works.


----------



## jld

usmarriedguy said:


> My wife is not much of a talker. I would say added up over 15 years I have had to put in a good 10 hours of listening.
> 
> I think LDs generally defy what we HDs consider normal.


Are you familiar with Myers-Briggs personality tests? I am wondering if it is SFs who are LD women. FW, do you know anything about this?


----------



## Married but Happy

TAG, I agree with what you said. 

My first marriage was largely sexless, yet I put up with it for far too many years. Even then, my sex drive wasn't gone, I rechanneled the sexual energy into other things as a strategy to cope, since nothing had worked to increase her interest in sex or to even meet me part way.

When I finally ended that marriage and started new relationships, my sex drive immediately channeled back into sex - I had no more need for coping mechanisms. I was then, and still am, HD.


----------



## Faithful Wife

No jld...I don't think personality type affects how sexual someone is.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Tall Average Guy said:


> Thus, if he was very sexual, he would not have put up with so little sex.
> 
> Yet AP did the same.


AP did not suppress her desire -it switched off on its own for some other reason than her actively choosing to not want sex.


----------



## jld

What do you think it is, then?


----------



## Faithful Wife

I think it is just natural variation in human sexuality.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> TAG - I'm basing it all on just what Anon has said about their lives together.
> 
> Highly sexual people do suppress themselves, all the time...but they will then turn to masturbation and fantasy, typically (or sometimes cheating). Which Anon did do (MB and fantasy)...are you aware of how extremely sexual Anon really is? I don't know if her H is lowly sexual as much as he is just way less sexual than she is. She's way up there.


I don't doubt that she is extremely sexual. But that gets you only half way there. It is like doing marriage counseling with only one person.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Not sure what your last statement means, TAG. Yes, she's higher and he's lower and that's not going to change unless he comes up higher.


----------



## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> I think it is just natural variation in human sexuality.


So some people just go through cycles? Because some of the LDs become HDs, right? Or only if they were once HD?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

usmarriedguy said:


> AP did not suppress her desire -it switched off on its own for some other reason than her actively choosing to not want sex.


Well, FW's theory seems to be that such a thing would not happen to a high sexual person. If it could, my question is why could that not have happened to the husband?


----------



## Cletus

Faithful Wife said:


> I think it is just natural variation in human sexuality.


For the life of me, I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept for people to grasp.

We don't get all hung up on why some people like broccoli and some do not (ok, some researchers do ask, but in general...)


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Are you familiar with Myers-Briggs personality tests? I am wondering if it is SFs who are LD women. FW, do you know anything about this?


You keep looking for simplistic answers and prescriptions to a highly complex problem. If simple answers were there to be found, there would be no need for this forum.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I do not recall seeing a case where an LD turned into an HD. 

Most of these cases are women who had a fairly healthy view of and interest in sex and somewhere along the way lost it temporarily. Most likely because of kids and other stresses. 

I just read a bit about Myers-Briggs personality tests 
-what is SFs? -Sensing Feeling?


----------



## usmarriedguy

Tall Average Guy said:


> Well, FW's theory seems to be that such a thing would not happen to a high sexual person. If it could, my question is why could that not have happened to the husband?


I do not think anyone would suggest that it can't happen in men as well. 

Maybe you are right. There is a stereotype that men are always interested in sex. But I have found reading these forums that they are much more variable than I had thought.


----------



## jld

Yes. Does it say that those types do not like sex?


----------



## john117

Faithful Wife said:


> I think it is just natural variation in human sexuality.



Culture and environment as well...


----------



## usmarriedguy

I would guess that my wife is ISTJ


----------



## john117

Wife is ST - Sensing Thinking while I am NT - intuition Thinking...

I don't think personality itself has much to do with LD - rather the actions taken or decisions made for many reasons end up pigeonholing one as LD etc.


----------



## Mr The Other

I suspect there is a divide between how people react to themselves. If feeling down, some will look for what they can actively do (meditation, yoga), others look to the outside (therapist, medication).

Equally with loss of libido, some will try and look for something that stimulates them and do what they can (experiment, HJ for partner), others will go to the doctor or wait for it to change.

The latter attitude looks like complacency to people with the former approach.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> You keep looking for simplistic answers and prescriptions to a highly complex problem. If simple answers were there to be found, there would be no need for this forum.


I thought I answered this already, but must have lost it.

We learn by asking questions. I don't have a sexless marriage, and I don't understand it. Maybe the problem is complex, but maybe not. Some people have gotten better, and we can learn from them, right?

Until we abandon hope, all is not lost.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> Not sure what your last statement means, TAG. Yes, she's higher and he's lower and that's not going to change unless he comes up higher.


I don't disagree that she is higher than average. I don't think you have any idea where he falls, beyond where you want him to.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't disagree that she is higher than average. I don't think you have any idea where he falls, beyond where you want him to.


Where I "want" him to?

Because I have some vested interest in their marriage or sex life? :scratchhead:

I'm only speculating about his sexual proclivity based on what Anon has told us...and nothing more.

Obviously this could be way off since he isn't here.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> I thought I answered this already, but must have lost it.
> 
> We learn by asking questions. I don't have a sexless marriage, and I don't understand it. Maybe the problem is complex, but maybe not. Some people have gotten better, and we can learn from them, right?
> 
> Until we abandon hope, all is not lost.


As long as you find the answers that don't align with what you really want to hear as legitimate. When you post responses like "why do people buy the MMSLP and NMMNG", what I hear is that "it must work or people wouldn't bother with it".

Maybe that's not what you're implying, and I'm reading too much between the lines. But I get a distinct impression that you don't find the answer "some people are just like that, it is what it is, and the other spouse has little power to change it" as acceptable. Again, perhaps my fault. 

If the question is how do we fix each and every sexually mismatched marriage, the answer might be "we can't". Maybe we can only fix some of them. Maybe only a minority, in fact. But if the problem weren't complex, we would surely have solved it by now. 

Having hope where non is to legitimately be found is of no value at all other than to waste your time and effort.


----------



## jld

Maybe I am just a hopeful person, Cletus. I hate to throw the whole thing out if there is a chance.

But I do think each person should feel good in the marriage, i.e., Win/Win or No Deal.


----------



## Tron

Maybe this is just too simplistic, but for whatever it's worth, if the OP continues on with MMSLP and follows through with it for a time, the nature of her LD will reveal itself. 

Is it resentment?
Is it physiological?
Was she abused?
Does she have a PD?
Is it stress?
Was he not meeting her needs?
Is he too beta? Does she want to be dominated?
Is she secretly into kink? Fetish?
Is she just not that into him?
Is she still in love or hung up on her ex?

Start checking things off the list and by process of elimination he will find the source. So far BB has only been complaining and trying to be a better contributor. No success so far.


----------



## naiveonedave

I agree Tron. I think at some point it comes down to treatable medical/psychological issues, she isn't into the OP or is in love with someone else.


----------



## jld

Tron said:


> Maybe this is just too simplistic, but for whatever it's worth, if the OP continues on with MMSLP and follows through with it for a time, the nature of her LD will reveal itself.
> 
> Is it resentment?
> Is it physiological?
> Was she abused?
> Does she have a PD?
> Is it stress?
> Was he not meeting her needs?
> Is he too beta? Does she want to be dominated?
> Is she secretly into kink? Fetish?
> Is she just not that into him?
> Is she still in love or hung up on her ex?
> 
> Start checking things off the list and by process of elimination he will find the source. So far BB has only been complaining and trying to be a better contributor. No success so far.


That looks like a good list, Tron.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tron said:


> Maybe this is just too simplistic, but for whatever it's worth, if the OP continues on with MMSLP and follows through with it for a time, the nature of her LD will reveal itself.
> 
> Is it resentment?
> Is it physiological?
> Was she abused?
> Does she have a PD?
> Is it stress?
> Was he not meeting her needs?
> Is he too beta? Does she want to be dominated?
> Is she secretly into kink? Fetish?
> Is she just not that into him? *This one.*
> Is she still in love or hung up on her ex?
> 
> Start checking things off the list and by process of elimination he will find the source. So far BB has only been complaining and trying to be a better contributor. No success so far.


100% right. this should rise to the surface.

In the meantime, anyone want to place a wager on which of the listed questions is the culprit? winner gets a six pack? I'll start.


----------



## jld

You feel like your wife just isn't that into you, BB?

That must hurt.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I don't have a clear answer, hence running the MAP to get this answer as that post exposed.

My instinct is that shes not into me but not confident in her feelings or even ability to get out of the marriage. Divorce with a child is not easy. So I'd imagine it would take quite the courage or confidence to get yourself to leave a marriage.

Anyhow, we'll see. The six pack shall be sam adams, and a seasonal one at that.


----------



## john117

I'm not sure 'bout the not-into-you part after a number of years. I could buy it when dating or early on but not after x years in. She's into him to have a kid together but not into him to have sex more than the international LD constant rate per month?

If she's not into him then she's into whom? The mailman? She'd be EA'ing or PA'ing her way into bliss at that age.

It's simply shorthand that "I do not care for sex because I get what I want out of our marriage but I'm too {insert adjective} to fess up"


----------



## naiveonedave

ILBNILWY is highly likely, if MAP isn't working. Or some kind of chronic very LD.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Probably a combination of several of those things and just plain old low drive.


----------



## BostonBruins32

naiveonedave said:


> ILBNILWY is highly likely, if MAP isn't working. Or some kind of chronic very LD.


which would be really tough to swallow, as ILYBNILWY = affair.

Actually does it ever not equal affair?

Regardless, the MAP is not getting sex done yet, but I'm now at a point where I'm getting a call and or text every morning from her saying "i love you" and usually some other blah blah commentary. Then there is an email sent from her at work. This has been going on for a little over a week. And is literally like clockwork at this point. 

This is an increase, as she never texted or called me in the morning for as long as I can remember. Same with the emails. So its early. Maybe somethings changing,. maybe its not. I have been cruising around on the MMSL forums and I've read these changes take time. (more than 2-3 weeks) hey wait a minute...do I sound optimistic? oops. my bad.


----------



## MisterG

BostonBruins32 said:


> Regardless, the MAP is not getting sex done yet, but I'm now at a point where I'm getting a call and or text every morning from her saying "i love you" and usually some other blah blah commentary. Then there is an email sent from her at work. This has been going on for a little over a week. And is literally like clockwork at this point.
> 
> This is an increase, as she never texted or called me in the morning for as long as I can remember. Same with the emails. So its early. Maybe somethings changing,. maybe its not. I have been cruising around on the MMSL forums and I've read these changes take time. (more than 2-3 weeks) hey wait a minute...do I sound optimistic? oops. my bad.


Keep MAPing and be patient.


----------



## Mr The Other

Would you consider not posting for a while? As you write, you spend a great deal of time thinking about this, with it going around in your head. If you are writing nad analysing on here, that will become worse. You need to get it off your chest, you have done that. Now, clear your head and concentrate on your wife for a while.

We will still be here in a couple of weeks.


----------



## naiveonedave

ILYBNILWY doesn't have to be affair. This is what the MAP is supposed to get you out of. Maybe I should have not used that term, though. To me it means she has checked out of the marriage, not necessarily an affair. 

Are you sure there is no other dude.?


----------



## BostonBruins32

I should focus more on her and less on here. Maybe this is a good place to start ---> http://www.barstoolsports.com/m/dmv/super-page/to-go-with-the-pornhub-valentines-day-card-you-better-be-taking-your-girl-on-a-romantic-mcdonalds-dinner/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> I should focus more on her and less on here. Maybe this is a good place to start ---> To Go With The PornHub Valentines Day Card, You Better Be Taking Your Girl on a Romantic McDonalds Dinner | Washington DC, Maryland, Virginia
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It seems like you have been focusing on her quite a bit, with no benefit in sight. You give her all the affection that she wants and she ignores the sex that you want. 

And as I have said countless times before, I think that CSA issue plays a lot more into this than you want to admit. Her refusal to address it in any way strikes me as a red flag.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

BB what, if anything, is your plan for Valentines Day coming up? What do you think is appropriate given your sexlife?


----------



## BostonBruins32

excellent vday question.

I am torn beyond belief. So i got the inlaws to watch our daughter and i have dinner reservations. I also found a place near the restaurant that has a comedy show. This is typical stuff I would normally do, $20-$30 a head dinner and some place for drinks or something after. Nothing is permanent, but this is my placeholder. FYI, she will be on period or at least the very end of her period that night. Not that that means much in the grand scheme of things, as this is more about the state of our marriage rather than trying to get her undressed that night.

To be honest, my heart isnt in it. I am admittedly very torn. Any feedback?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Well, I'm not a fan of rewarding bad behavior. I'm personally thinking of letting the day pass without notice.


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> Well, I'm not a fan of rewarding bad behavior. I'm personally thinking of letting the day pass without notice.


that is MMSL hardcore. I'd get a "why blah blah blah". Then it would be an opportunity to explain my displeasure again. Man thats a ballsy move.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

When you get the why blah blah, put it back in her court. "why would I set anything up? What exactly about our relationship is 'romantic' in any way?"


----------



## Faithful Wife

WOM...Is your wife really that horrible to you all the time? I guess I never understand what is behind some of your posts since you don't really give many details. But... is she like a really mean jerk to you all the time or something? Honest question, not trying to dig at you.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Faithful Wife said:


> Honest question, not trying to dig at you.


Right. I've learned my lesson on that already. But thanks for your concern.


----------



## 1812overture

Faithful Wife said:


> WOM...Is your wife really that horrible to you all the time? I guess I never understand what is behind some of your posts since you don't really give many details. But... is she like a really mean jerk to you all the time or something? Honest question, not trying to dig at you.


He can answer for himself, but in a sexless (which, to me at least, means a romance-less) marriage, Valentine's Day is a sham. 

And I know with my own bitterness is a lifetime of Valentine's Day BS -- not just my wife but girlfriends before. It's supposed to "romantic." In that case, WOM's comment is justified.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Faithful Wife said:


> WOM...Is your wife really that horrible to you all the time? I guess I never understand what is behind some of your posts since you don't really give many details. But... is she like a really mean jerk to you all the time or something? Honest question, not trying to dig at you.


first i think WOM's comments are relatively harsh and sound cynical. But if you read through the thread and get the gist of the issues at hand and lack of willingness for my spouse to attempt to change her actions, then i think WOM is right. Even if its not popular stance. 

We live together, hold hands, kiss and hug. We split household duties and parenting duties. I pay 99% of the bills. We do not have sex. Essentially I live with my brother or a cousin or a friend from college...except I don't hold hands and kiss those people. But everything else is the same. Roomate. Not Romantic.

"to have and to hold"... "to live together and hang out".. same thing sorta..or not.


----------



## Faithful Wife

BB...I wasn't making any statement about what you should do or WOM's advice to you. I definitely agree that being in an ssm sucks.


----------



## MEM2020

*Hmmmmm*

If dinners and comedy shows actually worked with your W, you wouldn't be near celibate. 

And this type behavior unfortunately reinforces her belief that the status quo is ok. 

Cancel your plans and take her to an indoor rock climbing place. 

If she declines, go with a friend. 

Until you burn this theme into your head, there is zero chance of repair: My fear, fear of loss has been driving the marriage into the ground. So I am going to do what I believe is fair and right, regardless of whether or not that causes my wife angst, up to and including her leaving me. 

------
Valentines day is a day that celebrates romantic love. Why would you participate in a normal manner when your wife happily accepts your vow of monogamy (near celibacy) without even acknowledging her responsibility to take care of you in that area of life? 

But if you do this - you do it with a playful, fun mindset. 

So if she says: rock climbing? On V day? With a tone of disbelief you just laugh and ask her: Are you afraid I'll let go of the rope when I'm belaying you? Then you shake your head and add: You will always be the mother of our child. 

As for the rest of V day. No gifts, no card, no texts and no dishonest reassurance. 

So if/when she asks: Are we going to make it? 
Smile and banter with: It's a mystery

------
I also think you should do a simple experiment. A week or two after V day, take her to a party where there are couples and singles. And spend most of the time socializing with other folks. Use your sense of humor to demonstrate some social dominance. And don't let her physically hang on you or show any type of 'ownership' behavior. Don't flirt, but don't discourage anyone from flirting with you. 

She needs to see just how quickly you will get snapped up, if the current trajectory continues. 



QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7005002]excellent vday question.

I am torn beyond belief. So i got the inlaws to watch our daughter and i have dinner reservations. I also found a place near the restaurant that has a comedy show. This is typical stuff I would normally do, $20-$30 a head dinner and some place for drinks or something after. Nothing is permanent, but this is my placeholder. FYI, she will be on period or at least the very end of her period that night.

To be honest, my heart isnt in it. I am admittedly very torn. Any feedback?[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

WorkingOnMe said:


> Well, I'm not a fan of rewarding bad behavior. I'm personally thinking of letting the day pass without notice.



My plan was actually a Snickers bar (almond is awesome) and a plastic rose from Michael's


----------



## MEM2020

WOM,
Maybe you are right and doing nothing is better than what I suggested. Better than rock climbing. 

My only suggestion would be a tweak to how he responds to 'blah blah blah'. 

When he gets the blah, blah. He might say this: 
This is what rejection feels like. See if you can handle it as gracefully as you expect me to. 



QUOTE=WorkingOnMe;7005330]When you get the why blah blah, put it back in her court. "why would I set anything up? What exactly about our relationship is 'romantic' in any way?"[/QUOTE]


----------



## WorkingOnMe

MEM11363 said:


> WOM,
> Maybe you are right and doing nothing is better than what I suggested. Better than rock climbing.
> 
> My only suggestion would be a tweak to how he responds to 'blah blah blah'.
> 
> When he gets the blah, blah. He might say this:
> This is what rejection feels like. See if you can handle it as gracefully as you expect me to.


Actually, I like your idea better. To me it shows that, while you're not going to do something special specifically for her, you are not going to live a boring miserable life without her either. She's welcome to get on the train, or be left behind.

I also very much like your phrase "dishonest reassurance". Definitely something to be avoided. It's passive aggressive.


----------



## Tron

Sports bar to watch some Olympic hockey...he is a Bruins fan after all.


----------



## MEM2020

*Virtual telepathy*

WOM,
Mrs. MEM is so deep inside my head that it is counterproductive to give her dishonest reassurance. 

So when she asks: are you ok with 'this', points to the mattress, I say:
- I miss having sex 
- I miss your raw desire even more 
- I am grateful that you gave me a lifetime of beautiful memories during our first 20 or so years together 
- I love you just as much now, as I did then 
- I can't imagine being with anyone else and have no desire to even contemplate such a thing 





WorkingOnMe said:


> Actually, I like your idea better. To me it shows that, while you're not going to do something special specifically for her, you are not going to live a boring miserable life without her either. She's welcome to get on the train, or be left behind.
> 
> I also very much like your phrase "dishonest reassurance". Definitely something to be avoided. It's passive aggressive.


----------



## MEM2020

*Rock climbing*

WOM,
And I suggested this specific activity for a reason.

- Boston has a very high 'strength to weight' ratio, so he will be good at it
- It definitely shows a mindset of 'happy, productive independence'

Boston,
In this game of strategy, the smart wife would make a counter offer, which would look something like this:
1. I will go rock climbing if you take me out to dinner first or
2. I will go rock climbing with you next weekend if you take me out on V day. 

But see - recall my analog regarding sex. When you initiate, she doesn't defer with: can we connect tomorrow? She just flat out rejects. There is no compromise, no consideration of how YOU feel. 

She will only learn empathy if she experiences rejection. 

So if it comes up, use that humor of yours:
BB: Dinner? We won't climb as well weighed down by all that food. I don't think so. 
Wife: Fine, we can eat afterward.
BB: And so we shall, just not at a restaurant 
Wife: Maybe I won't go at all then.
BB: That's ok, I am very practiced when it comes to amusing myself
Wife: Then I'll do a girls might out with my single friends 
BB: Enjoy. Gosh I wish I could be a fly on the wall to hear what you say when your 'friends' ask why your H wasn't willing to take you out on V day.

---------



QUOTE=WorkingOnMe;7006122]Actually, I like your idea better. To me it shows that, while you're not going to do something special specifically for her, you are not going to live a boring miserable life without her either. She's welcome to get on the train, or be left behind.

I also very much like your phrase "dishonest reassurance". Definitely something to be avoided. It's passive aggressive.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Virtual telepathy*

To avoid ambiguity: In the post below, when I say 'I miss sex', I am referring to intercourse. 




MEM11363 said:


> WOM,
> Mrs. MEM is so deep inside my head that it is counterproductive to give her dishonest reassurance.
> 
> So when she asks: are you ok with 'this', points to the mattress, I say:
> - I miss having sex
> - I miss your raw desire even more
> - I am grateful that you gave me a lifetime of beautiful memories during our first 20 or so years together
> - I love you just as much now, as I did then
> - I can't imagine being with anyone else and have no desire to even contemplate such a thing


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> that is MMSL hardcore. I'd get a "why blah blah blah". Then it would be an opportunity to explain my displeasure again. Man thats a ballsy move.


And your actions would again be the opposite of your words. Your mouth would communicate that you are unhappy, but she would hear that you are happy enough to take her out on a romantic holiday to spend money and give her attention.


----------



## jld

*This is what rejection feels like. See if you can handle it as gracefully as you expect me to.*

That's instructive. That could raise awareness and create empathy.

Some of the other ideas just sound like they could escalate tension and create further separation.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

jld said:


> *This is what rejection feels like. See if you can handle it as gracefully as you expect me to.*
> 
> That's instructive. That could raise awareness and create empathy.
> 
> Some of the other ideas just sound like they could escalate tension and create further separation.


Some times tension is required. Some people avoid issues when they can. When they are comfortable, there is no reason for them to change things - the old adage "when it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind. If everything is going well to her way of thinking (and there is no tension), she very well may conclude that nothing needs to be changed.


----------



## Lyris

I think the rock climbing thing is a bit contrived and petty. Why not just be direct? "Wife, I don't feel we have a romantic relationship and I would feel uncomfortable pretending we do by celebrating valentines day."

Then just have a normal night. Take up rock climbing or whatever later. Doing it on valentines day looks passive aggressive and weak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy

Faithful Wife said:


> BB...I wasn't making any statement about what you should do or WOM's advice to you. I definitely agree that being in an ssm sucks.


Except he just had sex a week and a half ago and has not asked her since then. 

So basically it is some sort of sexless protest marriage because she is not initiating.


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> Some times tension is required. Some people avoid issues when they can. When they are comfortable, there is no reason for them to change things - the old adage "when it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind. If everything is going well to her way of thinking (and there is no tension), she very well may conclude that nothing needs to be changed.



Tension sounds like a euphemism for marital warfare here, no?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> Tension sounds like a euphemism for marital warfare here, no?


I don't think so, thought your mileage may vary.

If something is truly an issue, pretending that everything is okay counter-productive. Tension is often a necessary component of ensuring that the couple actually addresses it (in part to eliminate the tension). But I am not sure that rises to the level of warfare. But I guess others could view that differently.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

usmarriedguy said:


> Except he just had sex a week and a half ago and has not asked her since then.
> 
> So basically it is some sort of sexless protest marriage because she is not initiating.


I did not appreciate the he was not initiating at all. If so, then he sounds like he is still in the mode of her proving to him where nothing will convince him. If he is going to maintain that, he should be honest and leave. He is stringing her along.

If he wants to actually fix things, then he should initiate. Her change in behavior could be a sign that she is willing to be more receptive.

If he has initiated, but has been refused, then he needs to align his actions with his words.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

So he initiates hundreds of times and is rejected 95% of the time. Finally after years of this level of rejection he stops initiating. And now it's his fault because he doesn't initiate? Sorry I just don't buy it. It's her turn for a while. A long while.


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't think so, thought your mileage may vary.
> 
> 
> 
> If something is truly an issue, pretending that everything is okay counter-productive. Tension is often a necessary component of ensuring that the couple actually addresses it (in part to eliminate the tension). But I am not sure that rises to the level of warfare. But I guess others could view that differently.



One man's tension is another man's warfare...

Especially if unresolved tension lingers.


----------



## poppyseed

Not sure if she used to be better?

What age group? Could simply be menopausal (which makes some women - if not all - far less interested or having painful intercourse).

I'm not sure what's the answer / solution. In marriage, resigned acceptance is a way forward? Not everything in marriage is good if I'm honest and it's not meant to be great in every department in marriage. If you want marriage to be perfect, it simply wouldn't work. 

You can't force someone to have sex with you if she/he doesn't want it. Probably, there are underlying reasons for it e.g. cause / effect.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WorkingOnMe said:


> So he initiates hundreds of times and is rejected 95% of the time. Finally after years of this level of rejection he stops initiating. And now it's his fault because he doesn't initiate? Sorry I just don't buy it. It's her turn for a while. A long while.


Being fair has got nothing to do with it. He can keep himself warm in his blanket of righteousness, or he can try to fix things.

From what I see, her behavior has changed some what. She is reaching out to him in her way. That might be a sign that she won't reject. In fact, that might be her way of initiating. Now that I understand the signals, my wife initiates a lot more than I realized. Still not as much as I do, but not nearly the 100 to 1 that I used to think.

It also might not be. It is certainly possible that she is giving what she wants to give and not what he needs. But knowing that is very useful, particularly as they have a child.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Tall Average Guy said:


> Being fair has got nothing to do with it. He can keep himself warm in his blanket of righteousness, or he can try to fix things.


Sometimes I think the first question we should ask to sexless marriage posters it: "Do you want to be right, or do you want to get laid?"

All this great advice, all these people sharing stories and experiences . . . and then "but it's not FAIIIIRRRRRR" gets tossed out there. 

Life.Is.Not.Fair.

Accept it. Work with it. Or move on.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I wasn't saying its not fair. I was saying that continuing to bang your head against the wall is ineffective.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WorkingOnMe said:


> I wasn't saying its not fair. I was saying that continuing to bang your head against the wall is ineffective.


No, you were not. You were very clear that she needed to balance the ledger.

My point is that this may not be the same scenario as he found himself earlier. As I noted before, there are a lot of women who initiate in a way that is very different than how men initiate. It may well be the case here. She has changed, and the possibility remains that she is initiating in the way she best knows. But because he refuses to believe that she loves him or is attracted to him, he explains it all away. What I would like BB32 to do is tell us whether he has tried and she shot him down or not. 

But I think that he no longer cares to try. That is too bad, but it is his choice. I do think he should man up and quit stringing her along. Make the break, because the status quo is bad for both of them.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I seem to remember that he tried again like two days after they had sex and she shot him down. I still would have to wonder if she would be willing to commit to weekly sex though.


----------



## BostonBruins32

so its been about 17 days since we had sex. 2 initiations with shoot downs within a week after that day. No initiations since. Her period starts today or tomorrow I'm guessing. 

TAG, there is an inner hope in me that something gets better before it has to be broken off. If it were as simple as breaking it off because I dont care, then I wouldn seek advice from you guys and I would have asked for "time away" or separation yesterday. or a month ago. Its simply not that black and white, or easy.

USmarried, I hate that whole commitment thing. I get your point but its just so counter intuitive to what I thought marriage was, a deep love for someone and a yearn to connect with them. Rather than a "hey you promised once a week, so lets go". I'm obviously living in la la land, but I'm just saying.

outside the room i'm still progressing, thankfully. She gave me some snappy responses yesterday while I was installing something in the house. I stopped what I was doing, asked her to look at me and told her those comments and that tone is unacceptable. then I continued what I was doing, and I didnt sulk or ignore her or do anything different. I carried off being jovial etc. I've done this a few times now, vs in my older days I would snap back at her and then passively aggressively sulk and be silent for 6 hours. MMSL seems to suggest not being a **** taker. thats sorta my angle.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> so its been about 17 days since we had sex. 2 initiations with shoot downs within a week after that day. No initiations since. Her period starts today or tomorrow I'm guessing.


Thanks for the clarification.



> TAG, there is an inner hope in me that something gets better before it has to be broken off. If it were as simple as breaking it off because I dont care, then I would seek advice from you guys and I would have asked for "time away" or separation yesterday. or a month ago. Its simply not that black and white, or easy.


I am not saying it is easy. I am saying that you seem to be taking the path of least resistance. You talk to her, but then act like it is not a big deal. You continue to return the affection that she needs. You seem unwilling to make things uncomfortable for her because you want her to figure it out herself. It is passive aggressive, as you know the correct answer but won't letter her know what it is. Not much different than wanting to go to a restaurant but telling her that she gets to pick and shooting down any suggestion until she gets it right.


----------



## MEM2020

*Questions vs. Statements*

Boston,
When anxious, 'warmer' partners sometimes engage in conversations that are more akin to emotional masturbation than connection. 

I mention this because there seems to be a 'theme' of her snapping at you for 'no apparent reason'. 

The thing that just happened, sounds totally normal, she has PMS and is a bit snappy, the day before her period. Your response is ok, as I used to do the same when getting snapped at. 

This should be a thread of its own, but for now indulge me:
The emotionally warmer/hotter spouse wants to feel MORE connected, closer to their cooler partner and sometimes expresses this through talking. 

Sadly, when (the lack of a physical connection) causes us to feel anxious about a lack of connection to our cooler partner, we oft talk without much regard to their engagement level. 

Engagement level, a quality we judged as maybe the single best measure of both 'into-me-ness', and 'into-her-ness' during courtship, has somehow gotten lost in the post marital shuffle. 

------
In a mutually enjoyable, highly engaged talk it is rare for someone to suddenly snap. Typically such an extreme change in emotion has an obvious and proximate cause like mentioning your Wife's best friend is getting a fat ass triggering her memory of the time you asked her if she thought fat ass-ed-ness was a heritable trait after meeting her pear shaped mother).

I'm confident Boston isn't saying highly inflammatory stuff, or if he is, he isn't surprised by the reaction he gets. 

-------
When this happens to me, I make an effort to do something different. 
- I get her full and undivided attention and 
- Ask her: Something on your mind?

I actually think this is a perfect example of what JLD is talking about. 

There are lots of ways to handle these type situations. I think the best ways all have a common theme, they attempt to identify the underlying cause. 

And yes, it's important to convey your view of the disrespectful delivery style. But this is what I have learned through trial and error.

H: is engaging in happy talk, isn't paying much attention to W's body language, tone or word choice and he does not realize that:
1. W is upset about something else
2. W is upset at him about something specific
3. W just wishes he would STFU because at the moment she really just doesn't feel like talking 

-------

W: snaps/behaves aggressively 
H: Comes back fast with a 'your tone/style is unacceptable'
W: Either shuts down or gets more aggressive, neither is good
H: Goes back to 'happy talk' with no idea as to the underlying cause of the spat

H: Something on your mind?
W: (Thinking: I can't tell him that I have a minimal appetite for (sports) conversations, and honestly when I have PMS, and feel generally tense, I prefer less talk. And that's when sports chattter becomes seriously irritating. Why can't he just tell when I don't really feel like talking about anything. Quiet does not equal mad, or emotionally disconnected, quiet just equals quiet.)
No, I'm fine

I have a simple view of this type situation. 
If I am doing X 
And W is being 'not nice' but won't say why
Then
It seems NOT smart, to go right back to interacting with her the way I was 










BostonBruins32 said:


> so its been about 17 days since we had sex. 2 initiations with shoot downs within a week after that day. No initiations since. Her period starts today or tomorrow I'm guessing.
> 
> TAG, there is an inner hope in me that something gets better before it has to be broken off. If it were as simple as breaking it off because I dont care, then I wouldn seek advice from you guys and I would have asked for "time away" or separation yesterday. or a month ago. Its simply not that black and white, or easy.
> 
> USmarried, I hate that whole commitment thing. I get your point but its just so counter intuitive to what I thought marriage was, a deep love for someone and a yearn to connect with them. Rather than a "hey you promised once a week, so lets go". I'm obviously living in la la land, but I'm just saying.
> 
> outside the room i'm still progressing, thankfully. She gave me some snappy responses yesterday while I was installing something in the house. I stopped what I was doing, asked her to look at me and told her those comments and that tone is unacceptable. then I continued what I was doing, and I didnt sulk or ignore her or do anything different. I carried off being jovial etc. I've done this a few times now, vs in my older days I would snap back at her and then passively aggressively sulk and be silent for 6 hours. MMSL seems to suggest not being a **** taker. thats sorta my angle.


----------



## john117

Normal people don't snap for no reason whatsoever. Heck, even monsters don't. 

If your significant other snaps at you and you go all jaw to the floor, you need to practice your people reading skills some.


----------



## jld

You're acknowledging something has changed. I think reflecting the feeling would be easier, though. It takes more thinking to respond to "Something on your mind?" than "You feel angry." It's more effort to respond to a question, even a good one like MEM's, when we are angry. 

And I'll admit that reflecting the feeling doesn't always work. 

I got mad at my dh last week for something (I wanted to make some concrete plans and he wanted to philosophize) and he tried to reflect the feeling, and I was just spouting off. I did not feel a bit like being reasonable. I was mad and he eventually got pretty mad, too, lol. Now I think that was actually good, because he is usually so calm.

Nothing he did worked. I just had to emote and then apologize to him and then we were ready to reconnect.

Women's emotions are so hard sometimes. I can get mad and just be so furious, and then a few hours later feel so different. I am so lucky my husband loves me enough to be patient with me.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> Normal people don't snap for no reason whatsoever. Heck, even monsters don't.
> 
> If your significant other snaps at you and you go all jaw to the floor, you need to practice your people reading skills some.


John dear...normal people do snap. It's not appropriate, it's not what's best, it's not a good way to deal with frustration, but normal people snap when they shouldn't.

Someone who never or rarely snaps....that's a person with no emotional range. Someone who doesn't feel, or doesn't acknowledge their feelings. Keeps a tight lid on it, shows a false face and can't be trusted. Thats a person not capable of an emotional connection.


----------



## john117

Note the qualifier "for no reason whatsoever". 

Meaning, when wifey of xx years snaps at thee,wifey has a pretty good reason in her mind for snapping, and it does not take a divining rod to figure it out.


----------



## Lyris

Really? I snap because I'm tired, because my kids are being irritating, because I'm worried and stressed about something, because I'm tired, because I'm really tired...

Lots of reasons. None of which have anything to do with my husband. I don't snap that often actually, less than once a month I'd say. But when I do the best thing is for him to not react at all really, and use an extra nice tone when he's next talking to me.

I get embarrassed when I snap, and having him draw attention to it by asking what the problem is would make it worse. I prefer to work things out on my own, and talk when I'm ready, not in response to questioning.


----------



## john117

That's exactly what I was referring to. If the hubby can't figure out why, he's not paying attention.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> so its been about 17 days since we had sex. 2 initiations with shoot downs within a week after that day. No initiations since. Her period starts today or tomorrow I'm guessing.
> 
> TAG, there is an inner hope in me that something gets better before it has to be broken off. If it were as simple as breaking it off because I dont care, then I wouldn seek advice from you guys and I would have asked for "time away" or separation yesterday. or a month ago. Its simply not that black and white, or easy.
> 
> USmarried, I hate that whole commitment thing. I get your point but its just so counter intuitive to what I thought marriage was, a deep love for someone and a yearn to connect with them. Rather than a "hey you promised once a week, so lets go". I'm obviously living in la la land, but I'm just saying.
> 
> outside the room i'm still progressing, thankfully. She gave me some snappy responses yesterday while I was installing something in the house. I stopped what I was doing, asked her to look at me and told her those comments and that tone is unacceptable. then I continued what I was doing, and I didnt sulk or ignore her or do anything different. I carried off being jovial etc. I've done this a few times now, vs in my older days I would snap back at her and then passively aggressively sulk and be silent for 6 hours. MMSL seems to suggest not being a **** taker. thats sorta my angle.


BB...

Your wife obviously *dislikes sex with you*. She is pushing the window out as far as she thinks is possible without you freaking out. She in her mind right now has a threshold of time you need to cross until she begrudgingly lets you get off in her and she acts as if she likes it. When in reality she could pass after all you used her for years think about the # of times you came on or in her she is done frankly.

Thats the grim reality...the options aren't tremendous as you are not dealing with logic

You have five choices: (no particular order)

1. Accept it (The rejections and the occasional pity sex)
2. Outsource
3. Leave the situation and possibly find a new mate
4. Talk, convince do more for her (honey)
5. Match her level of effort and hope she wants more and steps up sex(vinegar)

Just heard the Valentines poll: What do you want most from your partner/spouse?

1. Men: Sex 
Women :Jewelry

its a sad state of affairs for husbands/men in general

Last i checked wanting *jewelry* wasn't written in the primal urges of humanity.... sad

Bottom line: You aren't worth pleasing more than the low volume she begrudgingly offers and she probably treats others with more respect.

Its basically one big stare down.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Lyris said:


> Really? I snap because I'm tired, because my kids are being irritating, because I'm worried and stressed about something, because I'm tired, because I'm really tired...
> 
> Lots of reasons. None of which have anything to do with my husband. I don't snap that often actually, less than once a month I'd say. But when I do the best thing is for him to not react at all really, and use an extra nice tone when he's next talking to me.
> 
> *I get embarrassed when I snap, and having him draw attention to it by asking what the problem is would make it worse. I prefer to work things out on my own, and talk when I'm ready, not in response to questioning.*


:iagree::iagree:

I think I might print this out for my husband. I don't know why I never was able to articulate to him what I bolded above--I've tried to explain how it's not about him, that I just need space sometimes, etc, etc. But, really, it's about having attention drawn to behavior that I KNOW is bad and that I'm already not proud of. I would be happy to talk to him about it a little later, but when I just snapped and am feeling bad about it . . . I just am not going to be able to talk about "what is wrong" in a way that is going to be at all satisfying for him.


----------



## usmarriedguy

BostonBruins32 said:


> USmarried, I hate that whole commitment thing. I get your point but its just so counter intuitive to what I thought marriage was, a deep love for someone and a yearn to connect with them. Rather than a "hey you promised once a week, so lets go". I'm obviously living in la la land, but I'm just saying.



I understand wanting her to want you on her own, but at the moment she does not. 

The strategy behind withdrawing is only to take away parts of the marriage that she likes and generally to put the fear of God into her that the marriage is falling apart.

In other words -it is to coerce her to have sex more often.

Another strategy would be to make yourself as attractive as possible and hope that causes her to want sex more often. Since she does not masturbate I think it is safe to assume that she does not have unfulfilled desire for sex and attraction is probably not the issue and so this will most likely not result in more sex.

That being said, it is always better to make yourself as attractive as possible if just for your own good. 

If the plan is simply to make yourself as attractive as possible and wait for her to respond you may end up waiting for several years or the rest of your life. Is that an acceptable timeframe?


----------



## jld

Or you could try to really love her and serve her and seek to understand her. 

Imagine she was an abused child, a frightened, traumatized, insecure child, who needs nurturing, sincere, genuine, consistent nurturing, to come out of her shell. And you may have to do it for a while, maybe a long while, until she can voluntarily come out of there and talk to you about it. 

It would take patience, but you would have won her eternal trust, her eternal respect. And from that springs her love. 

And on a shallower level, certainly good, frequent sex.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

jld said:


> Or you could try to really love her and serve her and seek to understand her.
> 
> Imagine she was an abused child, a frightened, traumatized, insecure child, who needs nurturing, sincere, genuine, consistent nurturing, to come out of her shell. And you may have to do it for a while, maybe a long while, until she can voluntarily come out of there and talk to you about it.
> 
> It would take patience, but you would have won her eternal trust, her eternal respect. And from that springs her love.
> 
> And on a shallower level, certainly good, frequent sex.


in some women that may work... in many i believe in this.

Your wife used to be attracted to you and want sex in a way to capture you as her husband.

Her body and mind told her sex was necessary
To 
A. Find a decent man
B. Have children

Then YEARS pass and resentments set in, life becomes harder.

Sex is no longer even on the list daily, nor weekly its a CHORE that needs done at some point to keep the peace.

There are a subset of women that like being treated the way they treat you. Rather than having a husband who continually gives even when they know deep down they are hurting him.

there is no logic here, and childhood trauma is overblown this is just the way it is...and really not much you can do as the husband you just have to settle into a comfortable posture.


----------



## john117

That's why I focus on what else I can get from the marriage that makes me happy - $$$ - and leave the romance to Netflix. 

When $$$ ceases to be a concern, so long and thank you for all the fish. 

I figure my bucket list is pretty much all punched out, and my last 10-20 years will be spent photographing Slovenian castles and Irish landscapes. If she won't be in the picture (pun intended) then so be it.


----------



## jld

Trying, are you talking to me? I am a female.

My dh did exactly with me what I describe. We couldn't have the relationship we do without his having first been extremely patient and kind and listening. That is what earned him my trust. And he continues to earn it, by the same behavior: loving, patient, nurturing attention.

And I don't understand what you were saying about that subset. You mean some women don't care that their men aren't getting sex?

There must be a reason. 

If they are just selfish, then men can figure that out and get divorced.


----------



## jld

John, I think you are repressing your feelings. You _must_ be hurt inside.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> BB...
> 
> Your wife obviously *dislikes sex with you*. She is pushing the window out as far as she thinks is possible without you freaking out. She in her mind right now has a threshold of time you need to cross until she begrudgingly lets you get off in her and she acts as if she likes it. When in reality she could pass after all you used her for years think about the # of times you came on or in her she is done frankly.
> 
> Thats the grim reality...the options aren't tremendous as you are not dealing with logic
> 
> You have five choices: (no particular order)
> 
> 1. Accept it (The rejections and the occasional pity sex)
> 2. Outsource
> 3. Leave the situation and possibly find a new mate
> 4. Talk, convince do more for her (honey)
> 5. Match her level of effort and hope she wants more and steps up sex(vinegar)
> 
> Just heard the Valentines poll: What do you want most from your partner/spouse?
> 
> 1. Men: Sex
> Women :Jewelry
> 
> its a sad state of affairs for husbands/men in general
> 
> Last i checked wanting *jewelry* wasn't written in the primal urges of humanity.... sad
> 
> Bottom line: You aren't worth pleasing more than the low volume she begrudgingly offers and she probably treats others with more respect.
> 
> Its basically one big stare down.


So a few things here. I acutally think you're right with regards to her not wanting to have sex with me. There is a chance she is low drive in general and doesnt like sex with anyone (other than that honeymoon period rush). However, I think it is more likely she has lost respect for me or is/was never that into me. Either is bad. 

The other thing I'd say is with regards to her treating others with more respect: I'm not sure about this. Her personality towards people she doesnt know well is where you see her true intravert. Quiet and almost seems a tick intimidating, as she could look like not someone you can approach. With those close to her (her family), she can often be snippy or quick tempered, basically the same attitude I get. 

So I'm not sure how or if the two are connected. From the perspective of myself and probably her parents, she is a bit princessy and tempermental. So there is something here about those closest to her get the roughest treatment. Her way or the highway. Inability to appreciate her father's opinion of how to refinish the cabinets, or how her mom goes about her job, or how I use timeouts with our daughter. 

So what I have talked to her and the counselor about, a while back, is that her attitude suggests shes really unhappy inside. Kind of like if you have a little kid who keeps acting up, its usually due to a greater reason. My wife denies this, but what else would she say? Her actions speak much louder. Very few things are to her satisfaction (car, house, her clothes, her job etc). At some point you have to wonder if all those things are the problem, or if she internally has some unresolved problem. Which as I type this, leads me back to the CSA situation. And I then wonder if the CSA situation as much about sex as it is about her view on life or happiness in general? 

I'm not even sure what point I'm making, I'm just thinking outloud this morning. 

Either way, I had a great weekend harnessing my energy towards cooking, working out, and helping a friend move. Oddly she cuddled more, kissed more etc. very noticably. also sat right up next to me on couch, close in bed. shes been very lovey dovey. While I haven't figured out the sexless thing yet, something is changing.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Or you could try to really love her and serve her and seek to understand her.
> 
> Imagine she was an abused child, a frightened, traumatized, insecure child, who needs nurturing, sincere, genuine, consistent nurturing, to come out of her shell. And you may have to do it for a while, maybe a long while, until she can voluntarily come out of there and talk to you about it.
> 
> It would take patience, but you would have won her eternal trust, her eternal respect. And from that springs her love.
> 
> And on a shallower level, certainly good, frequent sex.


JLD, unfortunately I have a soft side and a "optimistic" side that does not allow me to rain down some of the behaviors suggested by the guys on here, or even the extreme MMSL followers. I have a "help" or "make people happy" chip, that in this case is my own worst enemy. 

So here I am trying to strike a balance. Patience and nurturing, combined with trying to put my foot down. This is wicked hard to mesh together. To date it seems ineffective in changing the behavior in the bedroom. But as I stated, something seems to be brewing. 

Maybe seeing me more engulfed in my own life, not taking her ****ty comments or snaps, and not sulking is having some effect on her. It hasnt dropped her clothes yet, but maybe an optimist would sayYET is the key word. And to be fair I havent been trying in a little while. 

The thing that gives me hope, vs just mailing it in, is change and trending. She's been very different around me for a few weeks now. Yep I still have resentment. Yep, I still recognize (see it on TAM all the time) that many of these women do not change. Yep, I have no clue what tomorrow brings. For now I'll just keep my foot on the gas.


----------



## naiveonedave

I think she is being subtle and you need to proceed on that assumption. Go to town next time she starts being lovey dovey.

You might even drive her away more if you don't act when she thinks she is initiating.


----------



## jld

I'm so glad to hear you do not follow everyone's advice, BB, because some of it is harsh. And I don't think women react well to harsh. I'm not sure dh has ever been truly harsh with me, and I am so glad, because I think it would crush me.

So yes, love is the base, the foundation, but then you need limits. My dh set down his authority pretty early on in our relationship, and I responded. I have a lot of freedom, but I know where the lines are. And when the lines are crossed, there are consequences.

I think that's why I don't get this sexless marriage stuff. Dh would never accept that. He would take me in the bedroom and lock the door. 

And I am so glad he would never accept that. Sex is an integral part of marriage. For most of us, anyway.

In a marriage, we all have responsibiities. And sex is one of them. It's better when it's passionate, but sometimes we are tired, and there is just not a lot of energy. At least I am that way sometimes. Dh does not complain, though. He is happy with 8/10, though yes, 10/10 is better.

You have a good heart, BB. You seem kind, and you will do well. I hope it is with your wife. I hope she doesn't lose you.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> John, I think you are repressing your feelings. You _must_ be hurt inside.



Money buys lots of bandaids, and lots of money buys - imagine that - lots of bandaids.


----------



## jld

But you're not happy, John. You would not keep posting the things you do if you were happy. And I think you would like to be happy.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

BostonBruins32 said:


> Maybe seeing me more engulfed in my own life, not taking her ****ty comments or snaps, and not sulking is having some effect on her. It hasnt dropped her clothes yet, but maybe an optimist would sayYET is the key word. And to be fair I havent been trying in a little while.
> 
> The thing that gives me hope, vs just mailing it in, is change and trending. She's been very different around me for a few weeks now. Yep I still have resentment. Yep, I still recognize (see it on TAM all the time) that many of these women do not change. Yep, I have no clue what tomorrow brings. For now I'll just keep my foot on the gas.


I'm pretty sure I know what's happening here. You've pulled back for long enough now that she's feeling insecure. She needs some reassurance that she has you firmly in her purse. So she gives you the signal that she wants you to initiate. It's not because she wants you, it's because she wants reassurance that you still want her no matter how badly she treats you. The proof will be when you finally go ahead and have sex with her....watch her behavior once her insecurity has been fed. The sex will be reassurance, and the cuddling and affection will disappear. Then you'll have to pull back again to get her to come back. It's all a very tiring game.


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm pretty sure I know what's happening here. You've pulled back for long enough now that she's feeling insecure. She needs some reassurance that she has you firmly in her purse. So she gives you the signal that she wants you to initiate. It's not because she wants you, it's because she wants reassurance that you still want her no matter how badly she treats you. The proof will be when you finally go ahead and have sex with her....watch her behavior once her insecurity has been fed. The sex will be reassurance, and the cuddling and affection will disappear. Then you'll have to pull back again to get her to come back. It's all a very tiring game.


totally agree that could be happening. I am not interested in a game. but on the flip side, there is a school of thought that says I should remain with my foot on the pedal. Because lets think about what that means:

-doing more things I enjoy, hobbies
-continuing to work out
-not taking her sh*tty comments
-not sulking

etc..

Arent those all healthy things to keep doing? Regardless of whether or not I'm with her? or whether or not she puts out? If I only want to do these things to get her to drop her laundry, then thats one thing. But theres also a chance that doing these things makes me happier and who knows, maybe makes the marriage feel happier..


----------



## Anon Pink

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm pretty sure I know what's happening here. You've pulled back for long enough now that she's feeling insecure. She needs some reassurance that she has you firmly in her purse. So she gives you the signal that she wants you to initiate. It's not because she wants you, it's because she wants reassurance that you still want her no matter how badly she treats you. The proof will be when you finally go ahead and have sex with her....watch her behavior once her insecurity has been fed. The sex will be reassurance, and the cuddling and affection will disappear. Then you'll have to pull back again to get her to come back. It's all a very tiring game.


Yup! Same pattern at my house, different issues.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Yup! Same pattern at my house, different issues.


so should I be doing something different?

or are you guys just saying that this will be a true test as to whether or not this marriage really can change?


----------



## skype

In addition to what WOM wrote, your wife may also feel that she can only be secure with you when you stand up to her, because then she knows that you will also stand up to other threats from the outside world. I would keep pursuing your own interests and see what her reaction is. She seems to want some distance and mystery from you.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> so should I be doing something different?
> 
> or are you guys just saying that this will be a true test as to whether or not this marriage really can change?


IDK.

Today, my H doesn't resemble the guy he was two years ago. To skip to the end, he has taken maybe 10 out of 50 steps to get to where I want this marriage to be.

He is improving, but he also backslides. It just gets tiring to crack the whip all the time.

That's why I really believe your wife has to get back into therapy. Whatever her issues are, she isn't seeing them, she isn't recognizing how it is effecting your ability to remain in love with her so you want to continue being married to her.

Not that I am suggesting you give her a deadline or an ultimatum. But being authentic means you are not happy with the relationship and you're not going to pretend everything is fine between you two. What exactly that looks like...to you...to her...that's the part where TAG and MEM's advice come in. 

So far, I haven't read anything from either of them that I would disagree with.


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> Not that I am suggesting you give her a deadline or an ultimatum. But being authentic means you are not happy with the relationship and you're not going to pretend everything is fine between you two.


:iagree:

Be transparent. Let her know exactly how you feel. You can do it in a non-threatening, non-begging way. Be yourself, but be truthful. Show her who you are.

That's the problem with that MMSL book, right? It does not put enough emphasis on being authentic?


----------



## john117

I don't deny that I would be happIER but happiness is not an on off switch, it has a range of values... 

Do I wish I was driving the JCW Mini versus my Mini S? Sure, but that does not detract from my enjoyment of the Mini. 

As long as you don't let one thing define you or consume you you're ok.


----------



## jld

You're resigned?


----------



## Where there's a will

I have read the whole of this thread and learnt a huge amount having been locked into a marriage to an LD wife throughout. It certainly is a marathon and not a sprint. I still can't get my head around why some women won't play their part in marriage. Why is it so important to some to deliberately not fulfill the 'to have and to hold' vow when it's fun,it's imaginative. I know it's not everything in a marriage but without it, it's not a marriage. My wife is everything else I want but like with others on here she constantly turns up at the game without a ball. Maintenance sex is an empty experience but as someone once said 'as far as empty experiences go it's one of the best! When challenged she is a 'just not like you' reply. No issues, no stresses, sound mind, intelligent woman but not bothered enough to see how it affects every waking hour of her partner so then I try to think how would it feel if we were the other way round-me the LD but it's almost impossible to do. I just can't see it from the other side.All I want is to feel affirmed as a husband and not feel that I'm a desperate person. On top of this sometimes one is tempted to treat, entertain, cajoule etc if that has to be done, in other words pay for the sex in time, money and emotion I am then basically doing what I would do to get sex from a prostitute- in other words striking a bargain.That can't be right. The realisation that loving and being in love being two different things and one is not happening is so hurtful. I fancy my wife, I want to show love to her, I want her in every way but she brings absolutely nothing to the bedroom. She loves sex when we do it, she never refuses, it's total vanilla and I mean total . Sorry I am rambling on and on here. I have made notes from this thread to work out a long term strategy and she will initiate one day surely, she will ask me how she can please me one day surely, she will engage one day surely. BB you are an inspiration to those of us when we see someone who is giving everything to sort a situation. It spurs us on in this perverse place we find ourselves in. There must be solutions somewhere!


----------



## jld

Tell her that part about wanting to be affirmed as a husband. Explain your feelings, honestly and openly, just transparent and raw.

And then have a talk with her on _selfishness,_ and how it has no place in marriage.


----------



## Lyris

There's a pretty convincing argument I've read about from an evolutionary biology perspective that's says women naturally lose desire for a familiar male partner at about the 4-7 year mark. If a new partner enters the picture at that point, her desire returns very strongly. 

In evolutionary terms this makes sense as it would encourage women to seek greater genetic variety for their offspring, increasing their chances of raising one or two to adulthood. 4-7 years is the natural weaning age for humans. 

I'm not a biology is destiny person at all, but it does offer an interesting explanation as to why a previously HD woman could turn LD, only to be HD again with a new partner.


----------



## Anon Pink

Lyris said:


> There's a pretty convincing argument I've read about from an evolutionary biology perspective that's says women naturally lose desire for a familiar male partner at about the 4-7 year mark. If a new partner enters the picture at that point, her desire returns very strongly.
> 
> In evolutionary terms this makes sense as it would encourage women to seek greater genetic variety for their offspring, increasing their chances of raising one or two to adulthood. 4-7 years is the natural weaning age for humans.
> 
> I'm not a biology is destiny person at all, but it does offer an interesting explanation as to why a previously HD woman could turn LD, only to be HD again with a new partner.



I've read that too. But it seems there are as many exceptions as there are those following the rule.

So then the question is how do you keep your woman interested in you. Sure is a far cry from the headlines from women's mags...how to keep your man in love with you....


----------



## jld

I would say be an interesting person in your own right. Be yourself. Pursue your dreams, goals, etc. 

Don't blame her. Don't shirk responsibility. Strive to improve your character.

And be grateful that we live in a country that offers the option of divorce.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

usmarriedguy said:


> I understand wanting her to want you on her own, but at the moment she does not.
> 
> The strategy behind withdrawing is only to take away parts of the marriage that she likes and generally to put the fear of God into her that the marriage is falling apart.
> 
> In other words -it is to coerce her to have sex more often.


I disagree with that characterization. 

It is about not rewarding poor behavior, or making her think nothing is wrong. It is being truthful that the marriage is in danger and if she is not willing to confront the issues, then it could fall apart.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
What a great post. You have a high level of self awareness. And that is a gift. 

I want to clarify something regarding the question I recommended. 

When I go down that path, it IS an expression of concern. It is NOT an act of aggression or the beginning of a interrogation. It isn't a:
- A demand that she explain herself or
- The first step towards boxing her into a corner

It is a sincere, low key question. She doesn't have to answer it immediately or later in the day, or ever. 

Everybody has their quirks, and Mrs. MEM has a borderline compulsive need to manage the way she expresses emotion. She has a strong aversion to being highly emotional because she perceives that as weak. And that is why she has a highly allergic reaction to being asked: if/why she seems angry. This fear of vulnerability is one reason we are seeing a MC. 

When I ask: something on your mind?
And hear back: nope or "I'm fine"
I just go with: OK

She almost always tells me what was 'on her mind' within a few hours or at most a day. And that's fine by me. 




jld said:


> You're acknowledging something has changed. I think reflecting the feeling would be easier, though. It takes more thinking to respond to "Something on your mind?" than "You feel angry." It's more effort to respond to a question, even a good one like MEM's, when we are angry.
> 
> And I'll admit that reflecting the feeling doesn't always work.
> 
> I got mad at my dh last week for something (I wanted to make some concrete plans and he wanted to philosophize) and he tried to reflect the feeling, and I was just spouting off. I did not feel a bit like being reasonable. I was mad and he eventually got pretty mad, too, lol. Now I think that was actually good, because he is usually so calm.
> 
> Nothing he did worked. I just had to emote and then apologize to him and then we were ready to reconnect.
> 
> Women's emotions are so hard sometimes. I can get mad and just be so furious, and then a few hours later feel so different. I am so lucky my husband loves me enough to be patient with me.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> I would say be an interesting person in your own right. Be yourself. Pursue your dreams, goals, etc.
> 
> Don't blame her. Don't shirk responsibility. Strive to improve your character.
> 
> And be grateful that we live in a country that offers the option of divorce.


scary stuff. though its at least comforting to know that if shes sick of sex with me, she'd likely be sick of sex with anyone after 4-7 years. so its nothing personal..haha..

oh well.. keeping foot on the gas.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

jld said:


> I'm so glad to hear you do not follow everyone's advice, BB, because some of it is harsh. And I don't think women react well to harsh. I'm not sure dh has ever been truly harsh with me, and I am so glad, because I think it would crush me.


One does not need to be harsh to be firm. BB32's problem is that he thinks they are the same. I am firm with my kids - they need to do their homework, do their chores, not lie, be respectful to their siblings, etc. We enforce those boundaries. Yet I don't see us as harsh. 

He needs to be firm about his boundaries, but refuses to do so because he does not want her mad at him. Yet that is what leads to a spoiled child. When they are never told no or faced with uncomfortable truths, they remain focused only on themselves. He is willing to remain unhappy to avoid her being unhappy. That is a recipe for disaster.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> What a great post. You have a high level of self awareness. And that is a gift.
> 
> I want to clarify something regarding the question I recommended.
> 
> When I go down that path, it IS an expression of concern. It is NOT an act of aggression or the beginning of a interrogation. It isn't a:
> - A demand that she explain herself or
> - The first step towards boxing her into a corner
> 
> It is a sincere, low key question. She doesn't have to answer it immediately or later in the day, or ever.
> 
> Everybody has their quirks, and Mrs. MEM has a borderline compulsive need to manage the way she expresses emotion. She has a strong aversion to being highly emotional. And a highly allergic reaction to being asked: if/why she seems angry. This is one reason we are seeing a MC.
> 
> When I ask: something on your mind?
> And hear back: nope or "I'm fine"
> I just go with: OK
> 
> She almost always tells me what was 'on her mind' within a few hours or at most a day. And that's fine by me.


totally agree

in the past 2 months, i've learned to listen to her rant about whatever, and not offer solutions. I've learned that when she bites back at me for no reason, I calmly explain thats not acceptable, then move on. Both of these reactions are changes for me and both have offered dividends. There is no silent treatment. There is no sulking. She is all lovey dovey in a matter of no time. Still no "im sorry", but i've read that most women suck at saying I'm sorry.

But MEM you're totally on point. Its this quirk with women you have to learn to accept. Thier occassional ***** fit is nothing more than a temporary spewing of frustration that isnt personal.

and by the way...this doesnt mean rejection of sex is ok. This simply means something is improving.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> totally agree
> 
> in the past 2 months, i've learned to listen to her rant about whatever, and not offer solutions. I've learned that when she bites back at me for no reason, I calmly explain thats not acceptable, then move on. Both of these reactions are changes for me and both have offered dividends. There is no silent treatment. There is no sulking. She is all lovey dovey in a matter of no time. Still no "im sorry", but i've read that most women suck at saying I'm sorry.Unacceptable, and I say that as a female.
> 
> Yes, it's humbling. Yes, it's embarrassing. So what? If I have treated dh disrespectfully, I apologize.
> 
> Tell her her treatment of you is unacceptable, and that you expect an apology. Tell her that if you treated her that way, you would apologize. But be clear about it, and ask for it consistently, every time she treats you unkindly.
> 
> You have to stand up for yourself, and call her on what you feel is not okay.
> 
> Please don't hide. Please don't just let it go. That is not going to inspire respect in her.
> 
> But MEM you're totally on point. Its this quirk with women you have to learn to accept. Thier occassional ***** fit is nothing more than a temporary spewing of frustration that isnt personal. Yes, the way to handle this is to not take it personally, and to not leave her. Stay in the room. You don't have to talk or engage her, except in the eye. Look through her temper tantrum to the frustration she is feeling. Love her through it.
> 
> And read The Way of the Superior Man! Best book ever for men (after Seven Habits of Highly Effective People!)
> 
> But when she is finished, and you have comforted her, and talked about what made her angry, etc., you tell her you now expect an apology. And if she won't give one, you ask for one later. Keep on her. It will plague her conscience, if nothing else.
> 
> and by the way...this doesnt mean rejection of sex is ok. This simply means something is improving. We certainly hope so.


----------



## Anon Pink

I have to take exception that most women don't apologize. My experience has shown me that it is true for some people, but can't be generalized to one sex or the other.

People who refuse to apologize....I have no place for them in my life! We all make mistakes and if you refuse to acknowledge yours, we won't be lasting very long.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> I have to take exception that most women don't apologize. My experience has shown me that it is true for some people, but can't be generalized to one sex or the other.
> 
> People who refuse to apologize....I have no place for them in my life! We all make mistakes and if you refuse to acknowledge yours, we won't be lasting very long.


i hear ya. and I'm cut from that cloth. 

but i dont know what else to say or do other than just acknowledge that some women I've met have admittedly sucked at apologizing. And trust me, if I could go back in time and recognize the lack of empathy, inability to apologize, and unwillingness to care about others needs, then I would surely reconsider marrying my wife. Sounds harsh, but i'd be lying if I told you it didnt cross my mind. At this point there is a lot invested, so I'm obviously just not walking away after only a few months of aggressive changes.


----------



## jld

BB, did you read my post to you? I showed you how to do it. 

If you don't require it, the next one won't do it, either. You don't want to just get on and off the merry go round, right?


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> i hear ya. and I'm cut from that cloth.
> 
> but i dont know what else to say or do other than just acknowledge that some women I've met have admittedly sucked at apologizing. And trust me, if I could go back in time and recognize the lack of empathy, inability to apologize, and unwillingness to care about others needs, then I would surely reconsider marrying my wife. Sounds harsh, but i'd be lying if I told you it didnt cross my mind. At this point there is a lot invested, so I'm obviously just not walking away after only a few months of aggressive changes.


I'm not sure I can blame you. Couple of thoughts...

1. A woman who refuses therapy once her feet are held to the coals...
Who refuses to apologize and at best becomes sweet and loving instead....
Who doesn't seek to understand herself yet expects her spouse to understand her...

Is a woman who doesn't sound like a good candidate to have a happy relationship with. She needs some serious accountability.

2. You mention you have come across many women who refuse to apologize, are these past GFs or loves? Is so, I would wonder what it is about you that you are so attracted to emotionally distant, controlling and stubborn people? Why do these types appeal to you? That might be something to ponder...


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> I'm not sure I can blame you. Couple of thoughts...
> 
> 1. A woman who refuses therapy once her feet are held to the coals...
> Who refuses to apologize and at best becomes sweet and loving instead....
> Who doesn't seek to understand herself yet expects her spouse to understand her...
> 
> Is a woman who doesn't sound like a good candidate to have a happy relationship with. She needs some serious accountability.
> 
> 2. You mention you have come across many women who refuse to apologize, are these past GFs or loves? Is so, I would wonder what it is about you that you are so attracted to emotionally distant, controlling and stubborn people? Why do these types appeal to you? That might be something to ponder...


Yep, i'd say half of my past girlfriends or girl friends were not really keen on apologizing. I always liked when they were able to say sorry or accept criticism, but you cant help who you fall in love with. my current wife is very much not what I always thought I wanted. I dated less aggressive, more easy going, more indecisive women for most of my life. when i met my wife, I was drawn to, what i thought was, her passion and emotion. She was very physical and touchy, she was very lovey dovey, more than i had ever met. she liked what she liked and it didnt matter that our tastes were different. It was really really great. refreshing. 

With regards to the passion for love, she lost this in the past x amount of years. Thats why this whole thing really crushes me. because this isnt what I thought I signed up for. I knew she was spirited, but I didnt know she would become only negative spirited. 

the easier going, less decisive type was fun to date, but never did IT for me. My wife did IT for me when I met her, as she felt very different. And I loved it. We dated long enough, or I thought, for me to really sift through how she is. But the marriage brought a very big change. Her affection slowed, anger seemed to surface. Very dissapointing. This all goes back to my hypothesis that she married the wrong person(confused with what she wanted) or she is just very unhappy with herself and doesnt know what to do other than to take it out on me and her parents (closest to her).

in hindsight, i dont know that I would have married my current wife. But I also know I wouldnt have wanted to marry a passive indecisive woman either.

and yep i realize this makes no sense. and i sound clueless..but again just thinking outloud


----------



## Anon Pink

> she is just very unhappy with herself and doesnt know what to do other than to take it out on me and her parents (closest to her).


My money's on this.


----------



## Faithful Wife

BB said: "...but you cant help who you fall in love with..."

This isn't really true. You can help it. When people get into affairs, they many times say "but I couldn't help it, it just happened"...but the things that "just happened" could have been prevented. This is true in dating as well. You don't "have" to fall for someone if they aren't right for you, you can shut it off with mental effort and by stop seeing them. You also don't "have" to marry someone just because you love them.


----------



## john117

If she married the "wrong person" you would have copious references of what the "right person" would be doing, or pointed references and comparison to friends or relatives and their "Mr right" marriages. Your actions would be suspect, you would receive constant criticism of minutely trivial things, etc.

My money is on unfulfilled expectations of married life in general, life in general, regardless of whom she's married, and overall depression.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> If she married the "wrong person" you would have copious references of what the "right person" would be doing, or pointed references and comparison to friends or relatives and their "Mr right" marriages. Your actions would be suspect, you would receive constant criticism of minutely trivial things, etc.
> 
> My money is on unfulfilled expectations of married life in general, life in general, regardless of whom she's married, and overall depression.


So i agree sort of with the last paragraph. Pointing towards it being more about her happiness with herself, than the actual marriage. 

The first paragraph is interesting. I do get hammered on criticism for a lot of things, though admittedly much less in past month (probably 10% of what i used to get). I don't get comparisons, so I suppose thats good. But by the same token she does not shy away from mentioning people buying a new house or going on vacation to X. So I used to take that personal (IE i'm an insufficient provider), but then I realized this wasnt the full story. She is a stay at home mom, because we can afford it. NONE of her friends or my friends are in the same situation. Additionally I hear her say things to others about her being a SAHM and or places we've traveled, or "my husband ran this road race blah blah"with a sense of pride. As in she's proud of the situation we're in. sometimes.

So this goes back to her not being able to figure out her own happiness (which she eluded to in counseling). One on hand, this sucks, this stinks, house too small, i'm doing the dishes wrong etc.. On the other hand "i'm so glad you're not like __" and "thank you for being so supportive of me " etc.. 

maybe shes bi polar haha.. Honestly I just think shes confused about herself, her marriage, and her feelings about me.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> BB said: "...but you cant help who you fall in love with..."
> 
> This isn't really true. You can help it. When people get into affairs, they many times say "but I couldn't help it, it just happened"...but the things that "just happened" could have been prevented. This is true in dating as well. You don't "have" to fall for someone if they aren't right for you, you can shut it off with mental effort and by stop seeing them. You also don't "have" to marry someone just because you love them.


:iagree:

Bingo. I would also add that if you "can't help" falling in love with these types of women, that says something about you and your personality. You need to figure out what is it about *YOU *that causes you to fall for these sorts of women.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> If she married the "wrong person" you would have copious references of what the "right person" would be doing, or pointed references and comparison to friends or relatives and their "Mr right" marriages. Your actions would be suspect, you would receive constant criticism of minutely trivial things, etc.


John, you are speaking from experience here? 

I just had to laugh when I read this. I adore dh, but I bug him with this stuff, too. It must be common.


----------



## Mr The Other

Anon Pink said:


> I have to take exception that most women don't apologize. My experience has shown me that it is true for some people, but can't be generalized to one sex or the other.
> 
> People who refuse to apologize....I have no place for them in my life! We all make mistakes and if you refuse to acknowledge yours, we won't be lasting very long.


It is not a sex divide, but in my experience, women from the UK do not apologise, but Scandinavian women often will. Nothing to do with the shape of genitals.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> John, you are speaking from experience here?
> 
> 
> 
> I just had to laugh when I read this. I adore dh, but I bug him with this stuff, too. It must be common.



Not direct experience from my own marriage. My wife is very picky about how she wants things done but I have no problem meeting her high standards (brrrr). 

She's quite aware that she'd be a Crazy Cat Lady decades ago if it were not for me but direct and frequent comparisons in general often indicate unhappiness. 

I know my girls have heard more comparisons from mom than Consumer Reports does in a year.... Sometimes innocent and sometimes spiteful comparisons I may say. She'll have to settle for one neurosurgeon in the family I suppose :lol: the horrors :rofl:


----------



## usmarriedguy

Tall Average Guy said:


> I disagree with that characterization.
> 
> It is about not rewarding poor behavior, or making her think nothing is wrong. It is being truthful that the marriage is in danger and if she is not willing to confront the issues, then it could fall apart.


Same thing with a different choice of words.

You want to define not meeting needs as not rewarding bad behavior. Whatever -but it is still withdrawing in an effort to coerce change in behavior.

I am not against changing ones behavior I just prefer a more honest and loving approach to it.


----------



## jld

I bugged dh for years about making more money. Once I practically shouted at him to go to his boss and ask for a $25k raise. He did it, and he actually got it! 

It's probably healthy for a couple to bug each other a little, to nudge each other out of comfort zones. Don't you think?


----------



## Anon Pink

usmarriedguy said:


> Same thing with a different choice of words.
> 
> You want to define not meeting needs as not rewarding bad behavior. Whatever -but it is still withdrawing in an effort to coerce change in behavior.
> 
> *I am not against changing ones behavior I just prefer a more honest and loving approach to it*.


I think everyone would prefer this method and think it should used until experience shows it simply doesn't work with the person you're dealing with.

What would an honest loving approach to increasing your wife's availability for sex look like to you?


----------



## usmarriedguy

The same things I have told Boston which he does not want to do.

Communicate with his wife exactly what he wants from her. Be totally honest about what he wants and or will accept. Make a plan and then give it time to be implemented. At the same time make sure that you are meeting her needs as well and are being as good an individual as you can be. 

Everybody has deal breakers. Each person in a relationship has the obligation to stay above that. It is not always easy to be honest about what the minimum level of performance is and accept that.

Boston seems to be tying to change his wife's behavior covertly by changing the way he interacts with her and not being direct.

While he may benefit personally from this approach (for example how he responds to her snippiness) I do not think it is a good way to getting his sexual needs met.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> I think everyone would prefer this method and think it should used until experience shows it simply doesn't work with the person you're dealing with.
> 
> What would an honest loving approach to increasing your wife's availability for sex look like to you?


I would love to hear what honest loving approach would work (that I havent tried).


----------



## BostonBruins32

This is where I'm confused. I have calmly explained to her alone and with counselor my needs and the impact that bedroom intimacy has on me. draws me closer to her, and not just "getting off". I've also explained that I can not continue ina marriage like this forever. (and no i didnt put a time limit on my threshhold for dealing with it, so maybe thats my downfall)

She's heard this, sans kicking and screaming.

Thats the whole point. She's heard it but doesnt care, or doesnt care enough. So the arrow points back at me. What am I going to do? I'm starting with self improvement. I have no idea what might next step is. I am just focused on the plan today, be better me. Admittedly so, I need to figure out where I go from here.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I bugged dh for years about making more money. Once I practically shouted at him to go to his boss and ask for a $25k raise. He did it, and he actually got it!



In USA it's unlikely this would result in a $2.5k raise let alone $25k . As wifey found out when they pay you this kind of money they expect serious returns.

It's ok to nudge people occasionally but not constantly. If they're doing the same mistakes or have the same issues over and over it may even be counterproductive.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> In USA it's unlikely this would result in a $2.5k raise let alone $25k . As wifey found out when they pay you this kind of money they expect serious returns.
> 
> It's ok to nudge people occasionally but not constantly. If they're doing the same mistakes or have the same issues over and over it may even be counterproductive.



for richer or poorer, to have and to hold.

such silly lines in vows..


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> Thats the whole point. She's heard it but doesnt care, or doesnt care enough. So the arrow points back at me. What am I going to do? I'm starting with self improvement. I have no idea what might next step is. I am just focused on the plan today, be better me. Admittedly so, I need to figure out where I go from here.



if she does not care, you need to figure out why. Read up on "Five Whys" to determine what's going on. All you have right now are symptoms, not root causes.

She's clearly comfortable enough with the status quo as it is to worry about meeting your needs. Your activities so far are welcome in that you give her some space and work on yourself but they're not enough to "destabilize" the marriage enough. Plus there's no "penalty" or consequences for staying the course.

Take one baby step at a time and demand you both go back to MC. Accelerate the detachment process and see how far you can go there. I would not bother with the occasional offers of intimacy nor would I be swayed by extra cuddles or texts.

Another question... Could it be she's resenting being a SAHM? If she spent money and effort to get a good college degree she may resent you working etc while she's home watching the Teletubbies... A therapist could get her to answer some of those Q's pretty easily and without A's you're in the dark.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> for richer or poorer, to have and to hold.
> 
> such silly lines in vows..



We never did vows  just a $25 civil wedding. Despite having a ton of camera equipment even back then, no pictures either, no rings to this day, last minute reception at my boss' house, and 3 day honeymoon at a theme park.

No wonder


----------



## MEM2020

*Hmmmmmmm*

Boston,
You said something about 'half the people I dated, didn't apologize'. 

Nope. I will restate that for you:

Half the people I dated, tested my boundaries with regard to treating me badly and then not even acknowledging it.

And because I didn't enforce a boundary, they quickly learned they could treat me badly and not have a consequence.

------
Boston,
This all comes down to a lack of faith, in yourself. If you had faith that you were worthy of being treated decently, you would deal with this crap behavior firmly. 

There are two very distinct things that you are treating as the same. 

One is your internal emotional state, and the other is the degree to which you are radiating a warm, loving vibe toward your W.

When your W speaks disrespectfully to you:
1. She needs to know that doing so doesn't disturb your emotional state AND
2. That you aren't going to continue being warm and loving when she does that.

It is a HUGE mistake to 'say', don't talk to me like that, and then immediately resume your friendly, happy puppy dog routine. 

There needs to be some period of time, during which you are calm, and in control, but not interacting with her in that warm/loving way. And it needs to get longer, if she doesn't start improving in this area. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> This is where I'm confused. I have calmly explained to her alone and with counselor my needs and the impact that bedroom intimacy has on me. draws me
> 
> closer to her, and not just "getting off". I've also explained that I can not continue ina marriage like this forever. (and no i didnt put a time limit on my threshhold for dealing with it, so maybe thats my downfall)
> 
> She's heard this, sans kicking and screaming.
> 
> Thats the whole point. She's heard it but doesnt care, or doesnt care enough. So the arrow points back at me. What am I going to do? I'm starting with self improvement. I have no idea what might next step is. I am just focused on the plan today, be better me. Admittedly so, I need to figure out where I go from here.


----------



## MEM2020

*V day*

Boston,
There is a woman named munchie, who came on here and posted for a while. She starved her H of sex for 20 years. You should read her explanation for why she thought 'everythng was ok'. Mainly it was because he kept treating her well, taking her on vacations, celebrating valentines day with her. 

Your fear of your W, fear of her disapproval, will be your undoing. 

Have you told her you are canceling your traditional valentines day routine? 




QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7069425]This is where I'm confused. I have calmly explained to her alone and with counselor my needs and the impact that bedroom intimacy has on me. draws me closer to her, and not just "getting off". I've also explained that I can not continue ina marriage like this forever. (and no i didnt put a time limit on my threshhold for dealing with it, so maybe thats my downfall)

She's heard this, sans kicking and screaming.

Thats the whole point. She's heard it but doesnt care, or doesnt care enough. So the arrow points back at me. What am I going to do? I'm starting with self improvement. I have no idea what might next step is. I am just focused on the plan today, be better me. Admittedly so, I need to figure out where I go from here.[/QUOTE]


----------



## usmarriedguy

BostonBruins32 said:


> This is where I'm confused. I have calmly explained to her alone and with counselor my needs and the impact that bedroom intimacy has on me. draws me closer to her, and not just "getting off". I've also explained that I can not continue ina marriage like this forever. (and no i didnt put a time limit on my threshhold for dealing with it, so maybe thats my downfall)
> 
> She's heard this, sans kicking and screaming.
> 
> Thats the whole point. She's heard it but doesnt care, or doesnt care enough. So the arrow points back at me. What am I going to do? I'm starting with self improvement. I have no idea what might next step is. I am just focused on the plan today, be better me. Admittedly so, I need to figure out where I go from here.


Did you make a definite plan? 

...Or did you simply communicate those needs and then leave it up in the air for her to do?

MAKE A PLAN.

SHE WILL FOLLOW IT OR YOU WILL GO FIND SOMEONE ELSE.

This is not harsh. You have a right to a reasonably happy life. (not a perfect life) Bend in her direction as far as you can bend and learn to accept and be happy enough with that. If you can tailor your part in sex to fit her better than do that.

Leaving it up in the air will do nothing but prolong the situation. If you are willing to stay in the situation for a prolonged period of time than it may actually be an acceptable situation. 

If you truly are willing to go on this way until for example (your kids are 18) than be honest about that. Do not try to manipulate her to do things just because you wish she would. 

Working on yourself with the hope that you will be more attractive to her is fine as long as you are doing it for yourself.

I just have not gotten the impression that you really know what she expects sex to be like.


----------



## MEM2020

*The warm loving approach*

US,
What would that plan look like?



QUOTE=usmarriedguy;7071081]Did you make a definite plan? 

...Or did you simply communicate those needs and then leave it up in the air for her to do?

MAKE A PLAN.

SHE WILL FOLLOW IT OR YOU WILL GO FIND SOMEONE ELSE.

This is not harsh. You have a right to a reasonably happy life. (not a perfect life) Bend in her direction as far as you can bend and learn to accept and be happy enough with that. If you can tailor your part in sex to fit her better than do that.

Leaving it up in the air will do nothing but prolong the situation. If you are willing to stay in the situation for a prolonged period of time than it may actually be an acceptable situation. 

If you truly are willing to go on this way until for example (your kids are 18) than be honest about that. Do not try to manipulate her to do things just because you wish she would. 

Working on yourself with the hope that you will be more attractive to her is fine as long as you are doing it for yourself.

I just have not gotten the impression that you really know what she expects sex to be like.[/QUOTE]


----------



## usmarriedguy

When you are in business you do not tell your employees that it would be nice to have a profitable year and then just leave it up to them to decide how to make it happen. 

You make a plan, you set goals, you define responsibilities, etc..


I don't know what a plan looks like because it would be different for each couple. It has to take you from Point A (current marriage) to point B (mutually agreed desired outcome) in a reasonable manor.


----------



## Anon Pink

usmarriedguy said:


> When you are in business you do not tell your employees that it would be nice to have a profitable year and then just leave it up to them to decide how to make it happen.
> 
> You make a plan, you set goals, you define responsibilities, etc..
> 
> 
> I don't know what a plan looks like because it would be different for each couple. It has to take you from Point A (current marriage) to point B (mutually agreed desired outcome) in a reasonable manor.


This makes sense, assuming Boston hasn't already spelled out what it is he is looking for from her. I always wonder when men come here and say their wives never initiate, do their wives KNOW that they're expected to? I know I didn't know and it never occurred to me that he even noticed.

To say, "I would expect that we have decent sex 2-3 times a week. I would expect that you initiate 1 out of 4 of those sexual encounters whether it's offering a HJ or BJ or sex. That's how I wish to be treated in order to feel loved by you. Now how do you wish to be treated in order to feel loved by me?"


----------



## john117

Her response to such a statement - request - would be far more indicative of the true dynamics of the marriage. 

If she snaps back with a crass reference or three that's all you need to know

If she is agreeable to the basic framework then you're on good shape 

If she promises the moon and the stars but does not deliver - see #1

And so on

All you need really is two answers:

Does she know what she's doing or is she on LD autopilot mode?

If she does know what she's doing, is she aware of the impact to you?


----------



## MEM2020

*Real needs*

Anon,
I agree that is a good starting point for people who are not really communicating. 

But this isn't about communication, it's about power. She finds his weakness a turn off. He could demand a quota, but she will ignore it. And he isn't ready to walk yet. 

Given that MrsB dropped out of counseling as soon as they finished addressing her issues, it is safe to say that she fully understands what he wants/needs.

Here's the brutal truth. He is NOT meeting one of her core needs. She needs him to be strong enough to 'take control'. She needs some sexual tension, but to date, he can't stop himself from trying to 'fix' the tension via puppy dog friendliness. 

He is still seeking her approval and avoiding her disapproval. 

She needs to see strength and edge. The puppy dog theme comes across as weak and is - sexual repellant - to this type woman. 






Anon Pink said:


> This makes sense, assuming Boston hasn't already spelled out what it is he is looking for from her. I always wonder when men come here and say their wives never initiate, do their wives KNOW that they're expected to? I know I didn't know and it never occurred to me that he even noticed.
> 
> To say, "I would expect that we have decent sex 2-3 times a week. I would expect that you initiate 1 out of 4 of those sexual encounters whether it's offering a HJ or BJ or sex. That's how I wish to be treated in order to feel loved by you. Now how do you wish to be treated in order to feel loved by me?"


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Here's the brutal truth. He is NOT meeting one of her core needs. She needs him to be strong enough to 'take control'. She needs some sexual tension, but to date, he can't stop himself from trying to 'fix' the tension via puppy dog friendliness.



If we are dealing with a hardcore LD the more "he takes control" the more she perceives it as a "threat" so the deeper she goes into the bunker. 

Likewise for "sexual tension". She needs this as much as she needs a flat tire on the way to the airport.

The opposite of puppy behavior is Rottweiler behavior which is frowned upon in this here board so...

A more direct approach would be to ask directly what is her optimal sex frequency, duration, and intensity. If she gives a BS answer that she does not come close to meeting in real life call BS on her. If she's happy with corpse sex once a month that's all you need to know.

Once you have this then ask directly what does she think your expectations are for the same thing...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> In USA it's unlikely this would result in a $2.5k raise let alone $25k . As wifey found out when they pay you this kind of money they expect serious returns.
> 
> It's ok to nudge people occasionally but not constantly. If they're doing the same mistakes or have the same issues over and over it may even be counterproductive.


It is a true story, if that is what you are wondering. Dh was an underpaid engineer 7 years ago, and I read about the engineering shortage. He asked his boss for the raise, and the boss said it was worth it to keep a good engineer.

And yes, the company owns him. We get him the rest of the time.

I don't complain about money anymore, but for a long time I did. Maybe I should have demanded action earlier. Maybe the complaining led up to the action.

ETA: I thought dh was being passive for not marching right in and asking for the $25, and told him so. But John, considering what you wrote, does it actually seem aggressive that he asked for this much? Maybe what I think is "passive" really isn't.


----------



## Anon Pink

Good point MEM. But I have to admit that I am confused too. He is not supposed to pout when she turns him down or gets snarky. He is supposed to be firm and assert his boundaries. Is then to not allow her to walk away until she issued an appropriate apology?


----------



## MEM2020

*Fatalism wrapped in logic*

John,
This really is fatalism wrapped in logic. 
Empirical evidence shows that she is currently willing to engage in sex once every 30-40 days. She does so, in response to frequent initiation. He doesn't need to ask this question, and in fact it is an act of aggression to do so at this point in the process. 

What troubles me about your mindset is that you seem to think that her desire level is relatively static and sort of exists in a vacuum. We have no reason to believe that is true in Boston's case. 

I am going to contrast your and my situation for a moment. 
- Your W is in very good shape, and has told you she finds your scholarly paunch (aka quarter keg), unappealing.
- At one point Mrs. MEM (who is rather fit) expressed serious frustration with me for letting myself go. 

Your response: we are older now, I have a fat stomach, deal with it
My response: ok - that's fair - workout, workout get back in shape

You seem willing to suffer almost any indignity to enable your children to graduate totally debt free. And yet, you aren't willing to put effort into a fitness routine and just see what that contributes to your marital dynamic. 

As for sexual tension, what specifically have I suggested that seems Rottweiler-ish to you? 




john117 said:


> If we are dealing with a hardcore LD the more "he takes control" the more she perceives it as a "threat" so the deeper she goes into the bunker.
> 
> Likewise for "sexual tension". She needs this as much as she needs a flat tire on the way to the airport.
> 
> The opposite of puppy behavior is Rottweiler behavior which is frowned upon in this here board so...
> 
> A more direct approach would be to ask directly what is her optimal sex frequency, duration, and intensity. If she gives a BS answer that she does not come close to meeting in real life call BS on her. If she's happy with corpse sex once a month that's all you need to know.
> 
> Once you have this then ask directly what does she think your expectations are for the same thing...


----------



## john117

MEM, a few observations...

First, the point of asking the question point blank is not because BB or does not know the answer. As you know, a good lawyer never asks a question he/she does not already have the answer to. Basic psychology stuff.

Second, the fitness routine argument is largely irrelevant. BB is in good shape. If it takes a six pack and bench pressing a Buick to get laid more often, BB should consider joining a monastery or other religious order. All it does is raise the bar and at some point the law of diminishing returns shows up.

Third, hard as it may seem to believe, I don't color my views based solely or heavily on my experiences. If I was in BB's shoes and time line things would be a lot different.

Fourth, our assumption still is that Mrs. BB is free of any personality disorders or unresolved issues. We don't know that. He does not know that. My crystal ball says "likely". If so, things are quite different than what MMSL and the like are geared towards.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> ETA: I thought dh was being passive for not marching right in and asking for the $25, and told him so. But John, considering what you wrote, does it actually seem aggressive that he asked for this much? Maybe what I think is "passive" really isn't.


I'm not sure how I would answer this question. I are an engineer too, now employed 25 years in hi-tech.

I don't actually know of anyone who has ever demanded a raise from one of my many employers over that time. The closest approximation is going out on a job interview, getting an offer, and telling the boss that he has the option to match that offer or not, but if not, you're walking.

But to just ask for a raise? Unheard of, to my ears. So the fact that he did so makes him the most aggressive engineer I've ever heard of.


----------



## jld

Thanks, Cletus. I'm going to pm you.

Okay, Cletus. I have not heard back from you, so I guess I was not supposed to pm you. I did so because you are an experienced engineer much older than my husband, I would guess. I shared his salary info with you because I thought you could tell me if they seem in line with reality, or not. 

As a wife, I watch these things. I used to push harder on these issues, because I didn't think dh was getting a good enough deal for us. And I think I was right. But I did hear back from another poster I pm'd with the same info, and he said dh is doing well. So I am just going to be satisfied with that, and assume dh is getting the best deal possible.

And raise time is next month, so it seemed important to ask you your opinion yesterday.

Sorry for pm'ing you, Cletus. I won't do it again.

Just got your pm, Cletus. Thank you very much.


----------



## john117

Let me give you the short essay answer. A TAM healthy male with super HD drive - they know who they are  - would have a better chance of a sex filled weekend with my favorite Dr. Mrs. LD than most any of us working stiffs asking for a raise, let alone a 25%.

But one never knows. I saw a junior analyst from India hitting on my wife over IM yesterday. Kept calling her "sir" at first (her name is not obviously female) so after she corrected him he was much more helpful once he found out they live in the same city (the beauty of a totally disjoint company and working from home). She's been hit on before by various Indians and Asians (she is Asian too). Wouldn't that be beyond lolz....


----------



## Tall Average Guy

usmarriedguy said:


> Same thing with a different choice of words.
> 
> You want to define not meeting needs as not rewarding bad behavior. Whatever -but it is still withdrawing in an effort to coerce change in behavior.


By that definition, any time one withdraws something is coercion. From leaving an abuser to not giving a child there allowance when they don't do their chores. 



> I am not against changing ones behavior I just prefer a more honest and loving approach to it.


But acting like everything is A-OK when you are miserable is up front and honest? Please. Acting as if every fine when it is not is the very definition of dishonesty. And that's before getting to the concept of mixed signals by talking about what is wrong but acting like everything is fine.

As far as not loving, you (and BB32) are equating love and not making your spouse unhappy. You can love your spouse and yet be honest in a way that makes them unhappy. One does not preclude the other.


----------



## MEM2020

USMG,

Agreed. And is it coercion if I tell my sales folk:
- If you sell X, your commission if 5%
- For everything above X it is 8%
- If you sell less than 80 percent of X you will lose your job?

Clearly Boston could say: If we don't have sex at least once a week, The marriage is in jeopardy. 

The reason that's bad is it doesn't address the underlying issues, which appear to be respect and a profoundly broken power dynamic. 





usmarriedguy said:


> When you are in business you do not tell your employees that it would be nice to have a profitable year and then just leave it up to them to decide how to make it happen.
> 
> You make a plan, you set goals, you define responsibilities, etc..
> 
> 
> I don't know what a plan looks like because it would be different for each couple. It has to take you from Point A (current marriage) to point B (mutually agreed desired outcome) in a reasonable manor.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
The point about fitness was directed at you, not BB. 

It is toxic to ask: how often do you want sex (when you know the answer is between very rarely and never).

Boston needs to focus on WHY. And I believe he needs to work on demanding respect and generating dopamine. 

All I here from you is what won't work. What exactly is it you think he should be doing? Let's say he takes your advice and asks how often she wants sex and she replies with 'once a month or so'. 

What then? 

Clearly that isn't acceptable to him long term. But I believe that he needs to convey that via action not statement. 


QUOTE=john117;7077649]MEM, a few observations...

First, the point of asking the question point blank is not because BB or does not know the answer. As you know, a good lawyer never asks a question he/she does not already have the answer to. Basic psychology stuff.

Second, the fitness routine argument is largely irrelevant. BB is in good shape. If it takes a six pack and bench pressing a Buick to get laid more often, BB should consider joining a monastery or other religious order. All it does is raise the bar and at some point the law of diminishing returns shows up.

Third, hard as it may seem to believe, I don't color my views based solely or heavily on my experiences. If I was in BB's shoes and time line things would be a lot different.

Fourth, our assumption still is that Mrs. BB is free of any personality disorders or unresolved issues. We don't know that. He does not know that. My crystal ball says "likely". If so, things are quite different than what MMSL and the like are geared towards.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> The point about fitness was directed at you, not BB.
> 
> 
> 
> It is toxic to ask: how often do you want sex (when you know the answer is between very rarely and never).
> 
> 
> 
> Boston needs to focus on WHY. And I believe he needs to work on demanding respect and generating dopamine.
> 
> 
> 
> All I here from you is what won't work. What exactly is it you think he should be doing? Let's say he takes your advice and asks how often she wants sex and she replies with 'once a month or so'.
> 
> 
> 
> What then?
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly that isn't acceptable to him long term. But I believe that he needs to convey that via action not statement.



I realize the comment was directed at me. I was hoping to make others understand the bogosity of 'fit and laid' when we see example after example where it does not work. It's not like I'm Jabba The Hut here... 

It is not toxic to ask a question if you already know the answer. If it were, courthouses all around the world would be flooded with toxic waste. 

It's like your kid comes home smelling of weed like he just attended the Frank Zappa concert at Fillmore East. Even tho we know he did weed it's not toxic to ask. People have difficulty lying this blatantly.

So, if Mrs. BB answers twice a week with a straight face and does not turn beet red, then BB gets some pretty awesome info right there. If she collapses in tears "but honey I thought you were stressed out and did not want sex"... More info. If she gets all defensive and reads him the LD riot act, even more info. Hallelujah.

No disagreement on why or dopamine.

As for what does NOT work... That's how science works. You set up a theory, then an experiment, etc etc. Edison did nearly 100 prototypes of the light bulb. Apple spends billions designing stuff to see them fail so that they can get the ONE thing they care about to work properly.

"Once a month" is an ideal answer. At that point he could switch her coffee creamer with Cream Of Dopamine (tm) and it would STILL be once a month. He could build her a Taj Mahal... You get the idea. At that point he has a decision to make based on real information, not beating around the bush.

If once a month is not acceptable to him that's all he needs to know. The action is up to him.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
Are you saying that if her answer is: I like sex once a month
Then
You believe that there is nothing BB can do that will have a meaningful impact on the frequency with which they have sex? 







john117 said:


> I realize the comment was directed at me. I was hoping to make others understand the bogosity of 'fit and laid' when we see example after example where it does not work. It's not like I'm Jabba The Hut here...
> 
> It is not toxic to ask a question if you already know the answer. If it were, courthouses all around the world would be flooded with toxic waste.
> 
> It's like your kid comes home smelling of weed like he just attended the Frank Zappa concert at Fillmore East. Even tho we know he did weed it's not toxic to ask. People have difficulty lying this blatantly.
> 
> So, if Mrs. BB answers twice a week with a straight face and does not turn beet red, then BB gets some pretty awesome info right there. If she collapses in tears "but honey I thought you were stressed out and did not want sex"... More info. If she gets all defensive and reads him the LD riot act, even more info. Hallelujah.
> 
> No disagreement on why or dopamine.
> 
> As for what does NOT work... That's how science works. You set up a theory, then an experiment, etc etc. Edison did nearly 100 prototypes of the light bulb. Apple spends billions designing stuff to see them fail so that they can get the ONE thing they care about to work properly.
> 
> "Once a month" is an ideal answer. At that point he could switch her coffee creamer with Cream Of Dopamine (tm) and it would STILL be once a month. He could build her a Taj Mahal... You get the idea. At that point he has a decision to make based on real information, not beating around the bush.
> 
> If once a month is not acceptable to him that's all he needs to know. The action is up to him.


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> Are you saying that if her answer is: I like sex once a month
> Then
> You believe that there is nothing BB can do that will have a meaningful impact on the frequency with which they have sex?


Yes, I do believe that is what the good professor is saying. 

Being a critical thinker doesn't mean one MUST criticize everything John! Say something positive, something hopeful, something nice. Try it, you might like it!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> This is where I'm confused. I have calmly explained to her alone and with counselor my needs and the impact that bedroom intimacy has on me. draws me closer to her, and not just "getting off". I've also explained that I can not continue ina marriage like this forever. (and no i didnt put a time limit on my threshhold for dealing with it, so maybe thats my downfall)
> 
> She's heard this, sans kicking and screaming.
> 
> Thats the whole point. She's heard it but doesnt care, or doesnt care enough. So the arrow points back at me. What am I going to do? I'm starting with self improvement. I have no idea what might next step is. I am just focused on the plan today, be better me. Admittedly so, I need to figure out where I go from here.



I think the most important thing you can do is come to grips with reality...

1. Nothing you do will make your wife change.... so if you are improving yourself do it because you want to and don't expect anything at all out of her.

2. Your wife is not deaf she knows the issue and refuses to do anything about it.

3. It just is the way it is right now.

Now what I have personally found that has worked best for me personally is settling into a mode where you accept reality and make a choice of how to proceed for the long haul. 

Once you do that you can gain a sense of self back and you learn not to rely at all on your spouse. You live your life and really don't worry about theirs.

That is not to say there is no love but basically its not worth any worrying about trying to make it better.

I find that stance makes life better for both spouses because in effect the LD spouse already pulled that card a long time ago. i choose to even the playing field in order to maintain a sense of fairness.

=====

Here is my version of what I believe is a valid analogy for "HD" men to understand:

In my case for a period of time I went to the gym, I never really liked the gym and when I worked out I tried to get the workout done in 40 minutes by doing max weights many reps and getting out of there. I did enjoy the results I was stronger, had that workout high and KNEW it was for the most part beneficial. BUT even though I know the benefits I just don't like the gym, in fact I don't necessarily like any exercise since in general I am fit. If I like anything it would be hiking.

I think SEX is very much like this for "LD" women just replace the GYM for SEX and I do believe the same dynamic goes on...however there is a HUGE problem with that as in a marriage SEX is expected, GYM TIME not so much.

So I will never really get the entire disregard some spouses including my own do when presented with the details of what is wrong and they blindly go on as if nothing is wrong.... that is at least to me a horrible thing to do and shows a defect in that spouses personality.

They can only fix themselves


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, I do believe that is what the good professor is saying.
> 
> Being a critical thinker doesn't mean one MUST criticize everything John! Say something positive, something hopeful, something nice. Try it, you might like it!


It's said in love, okay, John?  Your friends just all care about you.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, I do believe that is what the good professor is saying.
> 
> 
> 
> Being a critical thinker doesn't mean one MUST criticize everything John! Say something positive, something hopeful, something nice. Try it, you might like it!



I'm not a professor, alas. If I were I would be posting some pretty awesome numbers  Academia does not pay as well as it should. 

I feel hope and change belongs to the politicians (which ones). As much as I would like to hope that one day a flaming piece of Soviet space junk will plonk my wife on the head and she'll turn into a vixen, it ain't going to happen. 

One of the best complements I have ever received is that I have both feet solidly planted on the ground. We can sugarcoat LD HD stuff all we want but in reality it's a very tough issue to solve. That does not mean we should just roll over and play dead but we should be realistic as to what we can accomplish.

A few years ago I had a pet that contracted a very serious respiratory disease. The antibiotic killed her appetite for food and I had to feed her with a syringe 5 times a day. For six months, prepare food - like baby food - in a syringe, then slowly hand feed it a few cc's at a time plus water and keep offering food too. If I did not have some hope I would have given up in a week. Instead she had a great six more months with us. My veterinarian was blown away that someone would be this caring.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> Are you saying that if her answer is: I like sex once a month
> 
> Then
> 
> You believe that there is nothing BB can do that will have a meaningful impact on the frequency with which they have sex?



That's only for him to decide. 

My recipe for success would be:

1 - both parties acknowledge it's a BIG issue
2 - both parties commit to serious therapy with some fairly well defined criteria of success
3 - both parties spill their guts out about resentment, unmet expectations, etc
4 - both parties acknowledge exit strategy if 1, 2, and 3 don't work 
5 - a nice Caribbean cruise if 1, 2, 3 do work

There. Makes me wish I had done clinical instead of cognitive, :rofl:


----------



## jld

I really love #3. For all relationships.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> Are you saying that if her answer is: I like sex once a month
> Then
> You believe that there is nothing BB can do that will have a meaningful impact on the frequency with which they have sex?


I believe this is one possible outcome. The problem is that none of us, including BB32, know this for a fact. So the alternatives are to assume it can't be changed, or try different tactics to gain information and figure out what the actual facts are.


----------



## john117

Asking the question point blank, especially on a neutral environment outside the bedroom will likely result in a longer and hopefully more productive discussion about things, a very desirable result.

If the discussion goes "once a month is fine. Have you rescheduled Jennifer's piano class yet" then you better hope Jennifer's piano teacher is good looking and can be hit upon 

[Note to Jennifer's piano teacher from yesterday evening. Wearing a class AAA cleavage blouse, contrary to popular belief, does not improve the sound of a Steinway :rofl:]


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> I believe this is one possible outcome. The problem is that none of us, including BB32, know this for a fact. So the alternatives are to assume it can't be changed, or try different tactics to gain information and figure out what the actual facts are.


Exactly. 

Verbal communications have not helped me gain any information. So as you've all pointed out, in different fashions, I have to work on myself and create clearly defined/expressed boundaries for this marriage. It just still really pisses me off, because couldnt this whole thing be resolved or understood (good or bad) if she would just say whats on her mind or how she feels? She knows how I take criticism, very well (her words not mine). She also heard me say to her and the counselor that I am ok with (yes hurt could be in mix, but in general terms ok) any honest decision she would feel she needs to make. If she needs to leave this marriage, that is ok. She knows I'm unhappy, because I've said it 50 times. 

And this crap about "shes knows your unhappy but not unhappy enough to leave or do something about it" _should_ be irrelevant. If your significant other is unhappy in the marriage, does that mean that you should be ok with that so long as they dont leave? Thats a heartless, ****ty way to conduct business. This isn't a sales contract where I'm trying to pay the least amount for the biggest return. This is a marriage, supposively with someone you love and or care about. lets just assume she isnt a heartless person, what would cause her to want to push the boundaries of unhappiness with someone? Yep, I can get him to open my car door, fix things around the house, and take me out to dinner all while he is unhappy. Does she get bonus points or commission for this? Whats the upside or why the acceptance of this from one's self?

I have no idea what my point is. This was just my drive into work reflection. Today is a pissed day for me.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Tall Average Guy said:


> By that definition, any time one withdraws something is coercion. From leaving an abuser to not giving a child there allowance when they don't do their chores.
> 
> 
> 
> But acting like everything is A-OK when you are miserable is up front and honest? Please. Acting as if every fine when it is not is the very definition of dishonesty. And that's before getting to the concept of mixed signals by talking about what is wrong but acting like everything is fine.
> 
> As far as not loving, you (and BB32) are equating love and not making your spouse unhappy. You can love your spouse and yet be honest in a way that makes them unhappy. One does not preclude the other.


Leaving someone is not coercion but withhold allowance is. I do not know what your point is.

I never said anything about acting like it is OK. I said talk about it like adults, make a plan and then take action. 

I never said anything about being loving precluding honesty so again I do not know what your point is.


----------



## usmarriedguy

MEM11363 said:


> USMG,
> 
> Agreed. And is it coercion if I tell my sales folk:
> - If you sell X, your commission if 5%
> - For everything above X it is 8%
> - If you sell less than 80 percent of X you will lose your job?
> 
> Clearly Boston could say: If we don't have sex at least once a week, The marriage is in jeopardy.
> 
> The reason that's bad is it doesn't address the underlying issues, which appear to be respect and a profoundly broken power dynamic.


Yes that is coercion -and again, I said nothing is wrong with that. I said just be direct.

Well you tend to frame all sexual problems as "a power dynamic" and while it may be the cause in some relationships I do not think that it is the most common cause.

As far as power goes I am certainly suggesting that Boston take back the position as captain of the ship. Make a plan and steer it to a safe harbor.


----------



## usmarriedguy

BostonBruins32 said:


> If your significant other is unhappy in the marriage, does that mean that you should be ok with that so long as they dont leave? Thats a heartless, ****ty way to conduct business.


It is true that that is a ****ty way to conduct business but that is just the way people are. They frame every interaction by how it affects them and what they want. 

Whatever the reason is that she does not want sex at the frequency you want she sees as being harder to get past than it is for you to do without.

And it works both ways. You seem to be disregarding her unhappiness about having sex more frequently.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Weakness is such a massive turnoff. And your fear of upsetting your wife is going to pretty much ensure that she continues to treat you like a beta resource provider. 

The rules of this game are stark: no balls, no nookie


QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7088313]Exactly. 

Verbal communications have not helped me gain any information. So as you've all pointed out, in different fashions, I have to work on myself and create clearly defined/expressed boundaries for this marriage. It just still really pisses me off, because couldnt this whole thing be resolved or understood (good or bad) if she would just say whats on her mind or how she feels? She knows how I take criticism, very well (her words not mine). She also heard me say to her and the counselor that I am ok with (yes hurt could be in mix, but in general terms ok) any honest decision she would feel she needs to make. If she needs to leave this marriage, that is ok. She knows I'm unhappy, because I've said it 50 times. 

And this crap about "shes knows your unhappy but not unhappy enough to leave or do something about it" _should_ be irrelevant. If your significant other is unhappy in the marriage, does that mean that you should be ok with that so long as they dont leave? Thats a heartless, ****ty way to conduct business. This isn't a sales contract where I'm trying to pay the least amount for the biggest return. This is a marriage, supposively with someone you love and or care about. lets just assume she isnt a heartless person, what would cause her to want to push the boundaries of unhappiness with someone? Yep, I can get him to open my car door, fix things around the house, and take me out to dinner all while he is unhappy. Does she get bonus points or commission for this? Whats the upside or why the acceptance of this from one's self?

I have no idea what my point is. This was just my drive into work reflection. Today is a pissed day for me.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> This is a marriage, supposively with someone you love and or care about. lets just assume she isnt a heartless person, what would cause her to want to push the boundaries of unhappiness with someone?


As has been said, emotional needs not being met.

Does this mean it is you not meeting those needs? We just don't know.

For many years early in my marriage, my H did not meet any of my emotional needs. Looking back I know I can't fault him, though I really want to! 

1. I couldn't fully identify what my needs were.
2. When I could, I felt that I wasn't allowed to have those needs. I felt strongly that I wasn't supposed to have those needs and the very fact that I had those needs made me unlovable. 
3. I had secret needs that I refused to acknowledge even to myself.

This may be your wife, this may not be your wife. I don't see the point in beating yourself up for not meeting her needs if she isn't allowing you to know what those needs might be.

She needs therapy!


----------



## jld

MEM, can I just add a thought?

It's true that weakness, or maybe better, passivity, is a turnoff to most women. But everyone has weaknesses. I practically worship my dh, but he has weaknesses, too. Every man does.

It is really important to acknowledge them.

I think one of the things that a secure man can do is to sit down with his wife and say, Look, this is who I am. Warts and all. And if you can't handle it, if you need your idea of the perfect man, then you better go look for him somewhere else. I am just myself.

And then get up from the table and enjoy your day. And subsequently, your life, with her or without her. And maybe, eventually, with someone else.

Honestly, men are not perfect. They shouldn't have to be. But for every one man trying the way you do, MEM, and a few others, there must be 100 who don't. At least I feel like I know 100. 

Give yourself a break, MEM. You are a very nice man. I don't know some of the other men here as well, but you should not feel so much pressure to be perfect. Boundaries. And let her feel some of the heat for the relationship, too. It is indeed not all one-sided, not after a while, anyway.


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> It is true that that is a ****ty way to conduct business but that is just the way people are. They frame every interaction by how it affects them and what they want.
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever the reason is that she does not want sex at the frequency you want she sees as being harder to get past than it is for you to do without.



I could have told you the same after a 3 screen lecture :;

In another thread I joked about risk/reward theory and surprisingly that's pretty much what this is. The "risk" of having more frequent sex for her is not worth the reward for him (in her point of view)

Kicking around this a bit more reveals that in a risk reward scenario you have two pathways to take - seeking reward or averting loss.

In seeking reward you participate in the activity (sex) and receive positive or negative outcome (positive if is enjoyable, negative if you don't). You can also choose not to participate in the activity (sex) in which case you have lost nothing yet still receive something back (you keep what you have minimum or gain very little like 1% in a CD in the bank). For an LD it's a no brainer which action will happen.

Loss aversion is worse. It's the opposite of above and the objective is to minimize loss, easiest way for which is (surprise) to avoid sex.

There. One screen lecture... Bottom line, you're fighting LD human nature.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Verbal communications have not helped me gain any information. So as you've all pointed out, in different fashions, I have to work on myself and create clearly defined/expressed boundaries for this marriage. It just still really pisses me off, because couldnt this whole thing be resolved or understood (good or bad) if she would just say whats on her mind or how she feels? She knows how I take criticism, very well (her words not mine). She also heard me say to her and the counselor that I am ok with (yes hurt could be in mix, but in general terms ok) any honest decision she would feel she needs to make. If she needs to leave this marriage, that is ok. She knows I'm unhappy, because I've said it 50 times.
> 
> And this crap about "shes knows your unhappy but not unhappy enough to leave or do something about it" _should_ be irrelevant. If your significant other is unhappy in the marriage, does that mean that you should be ok with that so long as they dont leave? Thats a heartless, ****ty way to conduct business. This isn't a sales contract where I'm trying to pay the least amount for the biggest return. This is a marriage, supposively with someone you love and or care about. lets just assume she isnt a heartless person, what would cause her to want to push the boundaries of unhappiness with someone? Yep, I can get him to open my car door, fix things around the house, and take me out to dinner all while he is unhappy. Does she get bonus points or commission for this? Whats the upside or why the acceptance of this from one's self?
> 
> I have no idea what my point is. This was just my drive into work reflection. Today is a pissed day for me.


Expect more pissed off days until you come to complete grips with your situation. Then it will get better and you will gain a sense of self not reliant on the other spouse. Let them live in their own misery so to speak and move on.

Your wife is defective as you stated how it "should" be WE all agree however it isn't and you have to accept reality.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this is way beyond your control.

I still feel eventually my marriage will resolve but I have no control over when or where that happens... it relies on my wife changing for herself because she decides to.

Until that happens I needed to move on psychologically.

I do believe in my case ADHD on her part plays a significant role, does your wife have ADHD?

I do suggest you stop talking to her and let actions speak.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
Perhaps some context will help. For a while now Mrs. MEM has been saturating me with love, touch, sex. 

I'm simply hoping Boston can learn from what worked for me. 

Boston,
This is from a post by a woman who came on here because her marriage was at risk. 

He said that for years, he's been trying to talk to me about the problems with our marriage - our infrequent sex, my tendency to be constantly preoccupied with the kids, the house, my own work, etc., my lack of desire to be intimate, etc., etc. Yes, we have very busy lives with three active kids and two businesses (his and mine) and oftentimes we ARE like two ships passing in the night. But I always thought we had fun, enjoyed each other's company, went on vacations, and out to dinner, and the things that were lacking would work themselves out in time. 

While he agreed that we love each other, he claims that he also felt lonely, isolated and that his self-esteem took a heavy hit because I didn't seem to ever want to be with him. He said he tried many times "for decades" to engage me in conversations about how he was feeling, how he tried to initiate sexual and romantic moments, take me places, buy me things but it never seemed to make me happy or make him feel loved and appreciated. He said he didn't go out looking for someone else, but eventually he and the OW found comfort in each other. He said to me "I felt like you were either having an affair yourself or you just didn't care about me. You seemed happy that I wasn't bothering you for sex and I was happy because someone else found me loving and attractive and special ... so I felt like it worked for both of us." 

-----
My biggest revelation from this whole episode is that over the years, when my husband verbalized how our lack of sex/intimacy made him feel badly about himself, I thought it was intrinsic to his personality. He can be a bit needy and his "whining" (that's how I 'heard' it) about our intimacy problems would shut me down. But after reading the comments in this and other forums - I'm realizing that many men (and probably women) go through similar emotions of loneliness, anger, low self-esteem, etc. when their partner doesn't respond to them in an intimate way. I consider myself an intelligent person, but for some very strange reason, it never occurred to me that he could be feeling like this. I just wasn't cognizant of how my actions were affecting my husband in an emotional way. It's still no excuse for a PA, but I feel terrible that my actions somehow caused it. When I apologize to my H for this, he asks me not to apologize and then apologizes to me for causing so much hurt. Is that the guilt talking?

------

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/25694-am-i-blame-my-husbands-pa.html




QUOTE=jld;7091481]MEM, can I just add a thought?

It's true that weakness, or maybe better, passivity, is a turnoff to most women. But everyone has weaknesses. I practically worship my dh, but he has weaknesses, too. Every man does.

It is really important to acknowledge them.

I think one of the things that a secure man can do is to sit down with his wife and say, Look, this is who I am. Warts and all. And if you can't handle it, if you need your idea of the perfect man, then you better go look for him somewhere else. I am just myself.

And then get up from the table and enjoy your day. And subsequently, your life, with her or without her. And maybe, eventually, with someone else.

Honestly, men are not perfect. They shouldn't have to be. But for every one man trying the way you do, MEM, and a few others, there must be 100 who don't. At least I feel like I know 100. 

Give yourself a break, MEM. You are a very nice man. I don't know some of the other men here as well, but you should not feel so much pressure to be perfect. Boundaries. And let her feel some of the heat for the relationship, too. It is indeed not all one-sided, not after a while, anyway.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jld

Excellent, MEM. That is great to hear.

I have not read the thread you linked, but I think it is wise of every BS to consider the conditions that may have contributed to an EA or PA.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> Perhaps some context will help. For a while now Mrs. MEM has been saturating me with love, touch, sex.
> 
> I'm simply hoping Boston can learn from what worked for me.
> 
> Boston,
> This is from a post by a woman who came on here because her marriage was at risk.
> 
> He said that for years, he's been trying to talk to me about the problems with our marriage - our infrequent sex, my tendency to be constantly preoccupied with the kids, the house, my own work, etc., my lack of desire to be intimate, etc., etc. Yes, we have very busy lives with three active kids and two businesses (his and mine) and oftentimes we ARE like two ships passing in the night. But I always thought we had fun, enjoyed each other's company, went on vacations, and out to dinner, and the things that were lacking would work themselves out in time.
> 
> While he agreed that we love each other, he claims that he also felt lonely, isolated and that his self-esteem took a heavy hit because I didn't seem to ever want to be with him. He said he tried many times "for decades" to engage me in conversations about how he was feeling, how he tried to initiate sexual and romantic moments, take me places, buy me things but it never seemed to make me happy or make him feel loved and appreciated. He said he didn't go out looking for someone else, but eventually he and the OW found comfort in each other. He said to me "I felt like you were either having an affair yourself or you just didn't care about me. You seemed happy that I wasn't bothering you for sex and I was happy because someone else found me loving and attractive and special ... so I felt like it worked for both of us."
> 
> -----
> My biggest revelation from this whole episode is that over the years, when my husband verbalized how our lack of sex/intimacy made him feel badly about himself, I thought it was intrinsic to his personality. He can be a bit needy and his "whining" (that's how I 'heard' it) about our intimacy problems would shut me down. But after reading the comments in this and other forums - I'm realizing that many men (and probably women) go through similar emotions of loneliness, anger, low self-esteem, etc. when their partner doesn't respond to them in an intimate way. I consider myself an intelligent person, but for some very strange reason, it never occurred to me that he could be feeling like this. I just wasn't cognizant of how my actions were affecting my husband in an emotional way. It's still no excuse for a PA, but I feel terrible that my actions somehow caused it. When I apologize to my H for this, he asks me not to apologize and then apologizes to me for causing so much hurt. Is that the guilt talking?
> 
> ------
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/25694-am-i-blame-my-husbands-pa.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=jld;7091481]MEM, can I just add a thought?
> 
> It's true that weakness, or maybe better, passivity, is a turnoff to most women. But everyone has weaknesses. I practically worship my dh, but he has weaknesses, too. Every man does.
> 
> It is really important to acknowledge them.
> 
> I think one of the things that a secure man can do is to sit down with his wife and say, Look, this is who I am. Warts and all. And if you can't handle it, if you need your idea of the perfect man, then you better go look for him somewhere else. I am just myself.
> 
> And then get up from the table and enjoy your day. And subsequently, your life, with her or without her. And maybe, eventually, with someone else.
> 
> Honestly, men are not perfect. They shouldn't have to be. But for every one man trying the way you do, MEM, and a few others, there must be 100 who don't. At least I feel like I know 100.
> 
> Give yourself a break, MEM. You are a very nice man. I don't know some of the other men here as well, but you should not feel so much pressure to be perfect. Boundaries. And let her feel some of the heat for the relationship, too. It is indeed not all one-sided, not after a while, anyway.


[/QUOTE]

i read that whole thread yesterday. I agree with the general population on there, his fault beause he should have divorced. But there is soemthing about her actions responsible for the health of the marriage.

i always say it feels like I'm on an island at home. very lonely. very tough on self esteem. Sounds pathetic, but I don't know what else to say. Some of the reading i've done and experiences I've read about help me understand why I've acted as I have. I've bottled up stuff and then spouted off witha l loud temper..I've shown insecurity around her with regards to "do you like me do you like me????" .. and I now get where it came from. Hey it just kinda sucks because my 'need' to be loved physically and my desire for a lvoer to want me is just not being met. I'm working on removing both of these needs/expectations from my wife, for now. So I can sort things out.

What I find interesting in these threads are how many of the men here play hard ass with their internal emotions. I get the idea about how I should be acting or behaving around her, but dont any of you guys feel like your going nuts inside sometimes? Or are you all that comfortable with your self, in that your wives' actions play no role in your happiness? If you've all separated her actions 100% from your at home happiness, then god bless. I'm not there yet.


----------



## john117

You can't control other people's actions but you can control your own responses to those actions. 

Drop your expectations and see where it leads you. Learn that 90% happiness exists. 

Imagine you had $10k saved for a vacation. Take that money and spend it on your self (I think Mrs. BB is a SAHM). That's half a Mini S. That should push your enjoyment of life a bit. 


This will probably annoy Mrs. BB to high he11 but hey... That's life. If you don't want to spend the money on the car don't spend it on anything she enjoys either. 

Two can play games as well as one.


----------



## MEM2020

*This is what I would do in Boston's shoes*

I thought about what Lyris said. And she is totally right. 

FYI: Lyris and JLD love their husbands in a way that very much reminds me of the way my W loves me. 

If I were Boston this is what I would do:

It was a mistake for me to make V day plans with you. It would be dishonest for me to pretend I can enjoy a holiday that celebrates romantic love, when that part of our marriage is absent.

WRT her parents and babysitting and her being embarrassed:
If you want to conceal the state of our marriage from our parents, I won't stop you. But I won't help you either. So if you want to drop off and pick up our child that night and let them think we went out, you may do so. But I won't go with you. 

-------
The key points are:
- Being honest and direct 
- Not being angry or harsh
- Not apologizing - this is a genuine and valid reaction to a marriage that is parasitic, not symbiotic
--------

There is a very good chance he will hear: Well nothing will get better if we (really meaning you) don't work at it. (This is the princess theme song, it goes: Me, me, me, me. Meme meme)

And he should respond to that with a question:
If you really believe that, why did you stop going to MC? 

--------
I think he is also likely to get asked another princess question:
Do you still love me me me, meme meme? Well do ya? 

And that is when it's time to answer half the question with:
I don't like how you treat me. The disrespect, unwillingness to apologize, the selfishness. Those things are eroding our bond. 

------
If you keep pretending, you're going to get munchied....





jld said:


> MEM, can I just add a thought?
> 
> It's true that weakness, or maybe better, passivity, is a turnoff to most women. But everyone has weaknesses. I practically worship my dh, but he has weaknesses, too. Every man does.
> 
> It is really important to acknowledge them.
> 
> I think one of the things that a secure man can do is to sit down with his wife and say, Look, this is who I am. Warts and all. And if you can't handle it, if you need your idea of the perfect man, then you better go look for him somewhere else. I am just myself.
> 
> And then get up from the table and enjoy your day. And subsequently, your life, with her or without her. And maybe, eventually, with someone else.
> 
> Honestly, men are not perfect. They shouldn't have to be. But for every one man trying the way you do, MEM, and a few others, there must be 100 who don't. At least I feel like I know 100.
> 
> Give yourself a break, MEM. You are a very nice man. I don't know some of the other men here as well, but you should not feel so much pressure to be perfect. Boundaries. And let her feel some of the heat for the relationship, too. It is indeed not all one-sided, not after a while, anyway.


----------



## naiveonedave

"What I find interesting in these threads are how many of the men here play hard ass with their internal emotions. I get the idea about how I should be acting or behaving around her, but dont any of you guys feel like your going nuts inside sometimes? Or are you all that comfortable with your self, in that your wives' actions play no role in your happiness?" 

You have to make you happy, she can't do it for you. My take is that this is a deal breaker for you, and if it is, you need to let her know, then act on it. If it isn't, then stop being whiny.


----------



## Duguesclin

i read that whole thread yesterday. I agree with the general population on there, his fault beause he should have divorced. But there is soemthing about her actions responsible for the health of the marriage.

i always say it feels like I'm on an island at home. very lonely. very tough on self esteem. Sounds pathetic, but I don't know what else to say. Some of the reading i've done and experiences I've read about help me understand why I've acted as I have. I've bottled up stuff and then spouted off witha l loud temper..I've shown insecurity around her with regards to "do you like me do you like me????" .. and I now get where it came from. Hey it just kinda sucks because my 'need' to be loved physically and my desire for a lvoer to want me is just not being met. I'm working on removing both of these needs/expectations from my wife, for now. So I can sort things out.

What I find interesting in these threads are how many of the men here play hard ass with their internal emotions. I get the idea about how I should be acting or behaving around her, but dont any of you guys feel like your going nuts inside sometimes? Or are you all that comfortable with your self, in that your wives' actions play no role in your happiness? If you've all separated her actions 100% from your at home happiness, then god bless. I'm not there yet.[/QUOTE]



It is dangerous to play a role in front of someone, especially your wife. If you feel you need to play the role of the patient guy in front of her, it is not going to work. 

Personally I have taken a different route. My wife complained though the years about my short comings like not talking enough or being emotionally clueless. After some learning I finally realized that I needed to use her help. First I acknowledge my short comings and then work on a plan to improve.The improvements do not have to happen right away, you just need to show that you are genuinely trying to make progress. This goes a long way.

If you are impatient and she drives you nuts, maybe try to focus on one issue at a time with her or intentionally make a pause each time you talk to reduce the tension.

The message is do not pretend to be someone you are not. Just show that you are genuinely interested to improve. Of course you need to show some results otherwise it is not going to work.

An the funny thing, she will do the same thing... after a while!


----------



## usmarriedguy

"What I find interesting in these threads are how many of the men here play hard ass with their internal emotions"

Are there any? Who are they? 

I only see two types: 
Those in a stable and acceptable marriage
...and those who are not.

I do not know of any who are not getting the physical connection they need who are emotionally OK with it.


----------



## MEM2020

*Very true*

Absolutely agree that the sex starved spouses range from unhappy to outright miserable. 

However, I believe you will find that most men with very sexual marriages have a few things in common. I don't know if 'hard ass' with their emotions is how I would put it. I think of it more as:
- They REALLY understand their partners well. 
- They are skilled at managing the way they express their own emotions. Generally this is done in a manner that is clear, and yet they use very few words. 
- Even when very upset on the inside, they do 'what works', not necessarily what they want to do in the moment. 
- They tend to be low affect/reserved - and fun to be with 





usmarriedguy said:


> "What I find interesting in these threads are how many of the men here play hard ass with their internal emotions"
> 
> Are there any? Who are they?
> 
> I only see two types:
> Those in a stable and acceptable marriage
> ...and those who are not.
> 
> I do not know of any who are not getting the physical connection they need who are emotionally OK with it.


----------



## Anon Pink

*Re: Very true*



MEM11363 said:


> Absolutely agree that the sex starved spouses range from unhappy to outright miserable.
> 
> However, I believe you will find that most men with very sexual marriages have a few things in common. I don't know if 'hard ass' with their emotions is how I would put it. I think of it more as:
> - They REALLY understand their partners well.
> - They are skilled at managing the way they express their own emotions. Generally this is done in a manner that is clear, and yet they use very few words.
> - Even when very upset on the inside, they do 'what works', not necessarily what they want to do in the moment.
> - They tend to be low affect/reserved - and fun to be with



Or they just have sex crazed wives. Or something. All I know is at one point my H had all those characteristics or I wouldn't have fallen in love with him. He doesn't now, but my fingers are crossed.


----------



## jld

Crossing fingers for you, AP!


----------



## jld

*Re: Very true*



MEM11363 said:


> Absolutely agree that the sex starved spouses range from unhappy to outright miserable.
> 
> However, I believe you will find that most men with very sexual marriages have a few things in common. I don't know if 'hard ass' with their emotions is how I would put it. I think of it more as:
> - They REALLY understand their partners well.
> - They are skilled at managing the way they express their own emotions. Generally this is done in a manner that is clear, and yet they use very few words.
> - Even when very upset on the inside, they do 'what works', not necessarily what they want to do in the moment.
> - They tend to be low affect/reserved - and fun to be with


I agree, especially with the understanding the partners bit. And I see that MEM understands how important that is, too. 

You have to be able to read her. You have to be in charge of yourself, your emotions, to be able to put yourself aside, at least temporarily, and focus on her. You cannot be needy -- and the only way to not be needy, if you weren't born that way -- is to admit that you are, and work like **** to improve it.

A book like Seven Habits of Highly Effective People works great for this. It will make you face your character and improve it. It is not about gimmicks.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Personally I think that the more hard ass people do not stick in unfulfilling relationships that long and so do not tend to be here trying to make it work.


----------



## john117

I meet all 4 of MEM's criteria in spades and a lot of good that has done. As long as the blame does not go where it's supposed to go we're trying to herd cats here.


----------



## MEM2020

*Hmmmmmmm*

John,
We are going to 'switch places' for a moment. I am now you:

Step 1: I sit down with MedSchoolDaughter (MSD) and explain:
- Mom and I are going to be separated for a while. I truly hope we work it out, that's sort of up to her. If we get divorced, I will AT MINIMUM fully pay my 'half' of your tuition.
- You need to go out of your way to help and support Mom during this time. If needed, I'm giving you permission to 'take her side' when you to talk. If she decides to try to punish me by with holding your tuition, you need to try to convey that 'when we talk, I don't seem to care at all anymore what she does or doesn't do'. And therefore she is hurting you, and not impacting me at all. 
- Explain that worst case, she will graduate with 150K in debt, not 300K, and that given her expected income, that won't be a terribly burdensome loan.

Step 2 
Repeat the conversation with Designer Daughter. 

Step 3 - physical 
Spend 90 days getting in as good a shape as possible. And mention to W a couple times that 'I know this is important to you, and it was a bit pig headed of me to ignore your requests to get in shape' (and John - stop with the crap about how it takes years to get in shape - you ever watch the show 'the biggest loser'). She might react to the physiological improvements, the fact that you are prioritizing her request or both. 

And stop with the Jabba the Hut crap. You are taking extreme positions on this topic solely to avoid making the effort in an area where you physically benefit from making the effort. 

Step 4 - Make sure the time we do spend together is fun, so she is reminded of better days. 

Step 5 - Assuming nothing has changed in 90 days 
Inform W that she can either agree in writing to a 'semi open marriage' or I am moving out for a 90 day trial separation. If we cannot come to terms during that time, I will be filing at the end of the trial period. 

Of course that conversation would be all about her. And I would speak the truth: 
- How I am genuinely sorry that I failed to be the person she could really love and appreciate and 
- That she was the love of my life and I knew I would never meet anyone else like her if lived to be a hundred and
- That I was gong to be sad, just less sad than I was loving someone every day who didn't really love me back

And I would firmly repeat that theme over and over no matter how angry or aggressive she got. 
I am NOT leaving because I don't love you. I very much DO love you. I am leaving because YOU don't love ME. 

I would speak it, and leave it in voice mails. I would text it to her and email it. I would repeat it to my daughters. And I would never falter. 

And if she threatened to withhold the girls financial support, I would say: I really hope that they don't end up convinced that you are harming them simply to upset me. 







QUOTE=john117;7099393]I meet all 4 of MEM's criteria in spades and a lot of good that has done. As long as the blame does not go where it's supposed to go we're trying to herd cats here.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jld

Is that what you did, MEM? Threatened a semi-open marriage or a 90 day separation? You scared your wife like that? And that is why she has been cooperative?


----------



## MEM2020

Well not exactly. 

We've had a couple ummm - incidents. The link below refers to one of them, I am searching for the link to the other one. I have never cheated, and really and truly try to minimize my use of coercive tactics. That said, being married to a semi-hellcat requires occasional use of a whip. 

Note in the link below I ended up on the wrong end of the whip. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/22517-emotional-judo-works-both-ways.html




jld said:


> Is that what you did, MEM? Threatened a semi-open marriage or a 90 day separation? You scared your wife like that? And that is why she has been cooperative?


----------



## jld

MEM, that just does not sound healthy. I am assuming things have changed. I hope?

Clear boundaries with clear consequences. But moral consequences. I'm treating you like I would like you to treat me if our places were reversed consequences.

I will read more and the second link if you find it. Didn't she hit you back in the fall, and you did not call the police? Is that the one?

MEM, and I say this gently, but clearly, your marriage is not like mine. I do not treat my dh that way. I am disrespectful sometimes, but I truly feel bad afterward. I don't really want to be like that, and I think he would say his actions or the lack of them have something to do with my behavior.

But we don't do passive aggressive. Well, we don't do it in a big way. I might ask to go to dinner, and if he says no, I will probably not be very happy. But I am too old to "punish" him for it. I am just bummed out and he sees it. And I would probably be limp for making dinner. Well, I guess that is passive aggressive.

It has been a long time since he has done something passive aggressive. I am sure it used to happen, but I can't remember it.

We seem to be pretty direct here. Most of the time. Sigh. Nothing is perfect.

Okay, sorry to pick on you. I know you work hard on these things, and I don't mean to be cruel. There is plenty to criticize in everybody's marriage, including mine. 

I really hope things have changed for you and Mrs. MEM. Sincerely changed.


----------



## jld

Cletus and john117, I forwarded your pm responses to my salary question to dh. He was surprised to read them, as I did not ask him before I wrote to each of you with that info.

He wasn't mad that I told you like I thought he would be. He was pleased by what you said, and happy that I was pleased, too. 

Ever since that time when dh got that big raise, I have wondered if he is aggressive enough with salary demands. While I was happy he got the raise, it really shook my trust in him. I thought he was too passive with his negotiations, and I wondered for how many years he could have been making a higher salary, if only he had been more assertive. That does not breed trust in a wife.

Hearing that he is where he should be yesterday made me feel a lot better.

I think it is in the nature of a wife to always be testing her husband, always wondering if he is working at his maximum capacity for her and the kids.

Anyway, he asked me if I was satisfied now that he is making enough, and yes, I am. And I thank you both for the reassurance. Sincere thanks.


----------



## john117

No need for all that drama, my friend. My Mechanical Turk of a wife can answer every one of these questions. Maybe some of the answers will even make sense. And it won't do any good.

You're making the assumption that I'm dealing with a Normal Person (tm). This is not the case. And it's mostly entitlement and attitude, not mental illness.

Today I heard another gem from her. Her work is stressing her out - imagine that - and she's thinking to sell the house in three or so years and stop working. Right when PreMedDaughter will be going to med school  She also indicated her sizable 401k will be hers alone (and I quote: "If you get some major sickness like cancer don't expect to see any of this money"  )apparently the concept of joint property and divorce has not yet occurred to her...

On top of that she indicated she's being pressured for sex "all the time" :rofl:.

Pardon the emojis, my friends, but it's quite funny. Someone who has watched every man hating movie on Lifetime Movie Network should know about such things


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
One of the most common topics on TAM is the lack of empathy that LD partners show their HD spouses. 

But the thing is, I almost totally controlled the pace in our marriage for the first 15 years. And I wasn't as kind or understanding as I should have been when frequency wasn't exactly what I wanted. 

So all I can tell you is that it only took Mrs. MEM 3 weeks of very aggressive role reversal to create a lifetimes worth of empathy in me, for what it is like to be the LD spouse. 

I deserved what I got. She made me anxious for 3 weeks and kinder for the balance of our life together. 

-----
The other thing I mentioned was - about 3 years ago she did something that wasn't even close to acceptable and in response, I offered to outsource my sexual needs to a massage parlor if that was what she wanted. 
She very much did NOT want that and she proceeded to fix the mess she had made. 

I was very upset, and ultimately she told me she was very sorry for creating that situation. 




jld said:


> MEM, that just does not sound healthy. I am assuming things have changed. I hope?
> 
> Clear boundaries with clear consequences. But moral consequences. I'm treating you like I would like you to treat me if our places were reversed consequences.
> 
> I will read more and the second link if you find it. Didn't she hit you back in the fall, and you did not call the police? Is that the one?
> 
> MEM, and I say this gently, but clearly, your marriage is not like mine. I do not treat my dh that way. I am disrespectful sometimes, but I truly feel bad afterward. I don't really want to be like that, and I think he would say his actions or the lack of them have something to do with my behavior.
> 
> But we don't do passive aggressive. Well, we don't do it in a big way. I might ask to go to dinner, and if he says no, I will probably not be very happy. But I am too old to "punish" him for it. I am just bummed out and he sees it. And I would probably be limp for making dinner. Well, I guess that is passive aggressive.
> 
> It has been a long time since he has done something passive aggressive. I am sure it used to happen, but I can't remember it.
> 
> We seem to be pretty direct here. Most of the time. Sigh. Nothing is perfect.
> 
> Okay, sorry to pick on you. I know you work hard on these things, and I don't mean to be cruel. There is plenty to criticize in everybody's marriage, including mine.
> 
> I really hope things have changed for you and Mrs. MEM. Sincerely changed.


----------



## jld

I understand this is not my business. I am an internet stranger commenting on this, but it comes from a good place: defaulting to a massage parlor would feel very frightening to me, if my husband threatened that. I would comply, too. I have too much invested in this marriage. But I just don't think it would be healthy compliance.

But I really cannot sit in judgment, MEM. My marriage has been nothing like this. And that is thanks to dh. I don't know what would have happened to me if he had not come into my life. So judgment suspended. It just does not sound like something my dh would do, that's all. I really trust him.


----------



## Lyris

*Re: Very true*

I suppose my husband would qualify as a man in a very sexual marriage. We have sex 3-5 times a week. Pretty well nothing is out of bounds, I can't think of anything he's wanted to do that I've refused. I never reject and initiate about 30% of the time. Probably the area in which he might be disappointed is I'm not that good at coming up with new stuff, although I'm trying to improve. 




MEM11363 said:


> Absolutely agree that the sex starved spouses range from unhappy to outright miserable.
> 
> However, I believe you will find that most men with very sexual marriages have a few things in common. I don't know if 'hard ass' with their emotions is how I would put it. I think of it more as:
> - They REALLY understand their partners well.


He understands me sexually very well. He knows what turns me on and how to touch me. I would say I understand him equally as well.



> - They are skilled at managing the way they express their own emotions. Generally this is done in a manner that is clear, and yet they use very few words.


No. Not at all. He can't discuss or express negative emotions at all well. If I behaved like some of the refusing wives on TAM he would just shut down and withdraw. He would never mention it. He is way too proud to put himself in any kind of supplicant role.



> - Even when very upset on the inside, they do 'what works', not necessarily what they want to do in the moment.
> - They tend to be low affect/reserved - and fun to be with



Yes to both the last points. 

I'll add this: my husband married a woman who loves sex, although is not focused on it, and who adores him. And who places his happiness at a very high priority. 

I am also reasonable and emotionally stable and fairly secure. I am tougher than he is actually, although if you saw the two of us you wouldn't think so.


----------



## jld

I know our marriages are not the same, Lyris. You are as dedicated to your family as I am to mine; I have read that you do extended breastfeeding and family bed and homeschooling. Hard to be more dedicated than that.

But our husbands are not the same. My husband carries me. He would never emotionally withdraw from me, not in any purposeful way. He is naturally introverted, but he can exteriorize when I ask (practically demand) it. And as he is getting older, I think he is taking it upon himself to do it more proactively.

My husband is the emotionally stable one in our marriage. When our son was diagnosed with cancer, he cried for two days. I was shaken. I held it together, but I could not have done that long term. 

Luckily, after two days, he spoke to the social worker at the hospital and she gave him hope. 

Our son was very sick, and the doctors were worried it might be too late, that we had not recognized the symptoms of leukemia early enough. We thought he would die very quickly. It was really too much for either of us to handle, much less to tell our son and our other children.

That is the only time I have seen dh shaken. He is very strong and not selfish, at least as men go. And that is good, because I would eventually leave a selfish man. I would rather be alone.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I'm now convinced God is monitoring this forum and my marriage. 

Last night, while very tired, I managed to stay awake for the movie "the ugly truth" with gerard butler. Google that movie quick. Its over the top, but about a guy who acts seemingly like a macho jerk, and manages to win over a girl who wanted a "nice guy". It wasnt like a manuscript for me copy paste into my real life, but it was the bigger picture that i found interesting.

Alright people I get it, i get it! Stop being a nice guy.. got it.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm now convinced God is monitoring this forum and my marriage.


And what did you learn my son?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> And this crap about "shes knows your unhappy but not unhappy enough to leave or do something about it" _should_ be irrelevant. If your significant other is unhappy in the marriage, does that mean that you should be ok with that so long as they dont leave? Thats a heartless, ****ty way to conduct business. This isn't a sales contract where I'm trying to pay the least amount for the biggest return. This is a marriage, supposively with someone you love and or care about. lets just assume she isnt a heartless person, what would cause her to want to push the boundaries of unhappiness with someone? Yep, I can get him to open my car door, fix things around the house, and take me out to dinner all while he is unhappy. Does she get bonus points or commission for this? Whats the upside or why the acceptance of this from one's self?


Why are you surprised at this? This is the way she is. She has unresolved CSA issues, and refuses any counseling that does not involve you changing yourself into what she needs. Sure, your comments above would apply in a perfect world, but that ain't happening.

So you have to get it out of your mind that this unfair. Life is unfair and wishing it differently will only lead to resentment.


----------



## Faithful Wife

The dynamics in play in these issues are sometimes not that obvious to people who have never been divorced.

"They should"..."in marriage people need to"...."as my spouse, it is their obligation to"...

If you believe anything along these lines BUT YOUR SPOUSE DOESN'T, then you are the one who is wrong. There is no "should". There is only "believe" and "values". If your beliefs and values in these matters are the same, then you can work things out. If they are not, you have no power even if you think you do.


----------



## Racer

I’m sure someone has already suggested this. Have you gamed her? By that I mean allowed her to see that you have opportunity? A lot of people when in a intimate relationship, see others as threats to their “turf”. They start comparing themselves. If your wife knows she falls short of what you are looking for, that will be her weak point as she reflects. So, her seeing someone she’d believe is a much higher sexual persona will be a large threat. Seeing it often enough will prey on that insecurity she has about her hold on you. Humans tend to try to compensate. 

I had to loosen my boundaries so I was able to see the interest around me that I generated. Others will bash this, but you might read a PUA book. Being able to attract the opposite sex tends to have your spouse reconsidering how they look at you sexually. If you are like me, when the relationship got serious, you sort of put a bubble around you and put blinders on so you only saw your spouse looking at you that way. Lots of HD guys do that as a way to cope with avoiding temptation. You kind of need to pop that bubble and take off the blinders. It builds confidence, which attracts, and you note it (as will your wife).


----------



## jld

I don't know, Racer. That gaming stuff sounds weak. What do you do when she sees through it?

I think it is better to work on character issues and deep communication. BB will benefit long term from time spent improving these two areas.


----------



## Racer

jld said:


> I don't know, Racer. That gaming stuff sounds weak. What do you do when she sees through it?
> 
> I think it is better to work on character issues and deep communication. BB will benefit long term from time spent improving these two areas.


What's there to see through? The ‘artificial’ is how it changed because you are married. Because of it, strong boundaries and methods are in place so you don’t find yourself in circumstances. You want that look from your wife so that is all you look for (which also puts out a ‘off-limits’ vibe). Like I said, you put yourself in a bubble intentionally.

All you are doing is expanding what you notice. They had interest regardless of whether or not you notice. That doesn’t change at all. But because you popped your bubble and now notice, you can strike up a conversation or they might with you. You don’t even have to flirt. Sort of like you noticing the subtle differences between a couples out for the night and a group of friends (men and women). The ‘vibe’ is completely different. Body positioning, eyes, etc. You can even spot older couples versus ones just starting to date. Hell, you can even tell when it’s a bad date going on. All you have to do is look and pay attention to what you are projecting out there. Approachable versus not. The biggest 'trick' is just being you and not being 'husband' for the evening.

One of my many mistakes was the wife and I never went out together really. So she was used to seeing me at home instead of out. If we went out, it was usually with her group of friends. And again, she just saw me trailing along after her because that’s what I thought I should be doing. That is the image to form her opinion. Not another woman in sight. 

What changed now is I don’t rely on her like that. I’m fine if she wanders off. I’ll start conversations with other people she doesn’t know (or trust). Amazing how fast she’ll make a point of scooting by just to mark her territory; Get in close, shoot the evil eye, maybe a peck on the cheek, and scurry back off to whomever she was chatting with.


----------



## Racer

jld said:


> I think it is better to work on character issues and deep communication. BB will benefit long term from time spent improving these two areas.


Oh.. And got to pick on this one a bit. When was the last time you talked your wife into wet panties by talking about issues? Attraction and desire doesn’t work like that.

Even A’holes tend to get laid more than Boy Scouts... So much for character and respect being a core ‘jump his bones’ trait.

Those are both really good things in a relationship. But they aren’t going to get him some nooky. Women aren’t that much different than Men in that respect. Does a woman of character who talks a lot about her feelings and take on life give you wood? It doesn’t hurt, and goes a long way in whether you’d want to be in a serious relationship with her. But it isn’t sexy...


----------



## jld

Okay, that hurts my feelings a little bit. For one, I am a female. And secondly, I actually do appreciate good character in a man. It is one of the principal reasons I have been with my dh for nearly 20 years. I think it is very appealing, because it builds trust.

And not that you need to know, but my panties are pretty much always wet for my dh. Good character does have its rewards.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Happy valentines day! 

Thanks for the card honey. Have a good day at work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

... Crickets ...
... Crickets ...
... Crickets ...


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> ... Crickets ...
> ... Crickets ...
> ... Crickets ...



Haha.. Was giggling for about 10 minutes in car on way to work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> ... Crickets ...
> ... Crickets ...
> ... Crickets ...


Oh quit being so negative...

I got candy can't wait for next year..


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> Oh quit being so negative...
> 
> I got candy can't wait for next year..


*fingers crossed for duty sex this weekend!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> *fingers crossed for duty sex this weekend!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you referring to corpse sex or unenthusiastic sex?

Does she roll her eye give it a few clumsy yanks, then spread her legs and lay there?

Does she take too long to start breathing heavily? Does she no longer respond to certain touches? 

Just a thought, maybe your wife has simply lost her enthusiasm for sex, but not for you?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Turn down the starfish sex. Don't accept it.


----------



## john117

View attachment 16809


It's a slow slow slow day at work...


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Are you referring to corpse sex or unenthusiastic sex?
> 
> Does she roll her eye give it a few clumsy yanks, then spread her legs and lay there?
> 
> Does she take too long to start breathing heavily? Does she no longer respond to certain touches?
> 
> Just a thought, maybe your wife has simply lost her enthusiasm for sex, but not for you?


No on a serous note she is very engaged one we're doing it. Vocal and active .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Okay so it's not duty sex or corpse sex cause that's a whole different ball of wax.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Okay so it's not duty sex or corpse sex cause that's a whole different ball of wax.


What would you call monthly or bi monthly active sex? "Shut him up" or "quota" ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

If she is actively engaged and pleased with the sex she does have, I would not call it duty, but lack of arousal.

Ask her what it takes to get her aroused and wanting sex. Other then that one time a month when her hormones are peaking.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Why do you think that she does not honestly like sex once or twice a month?


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> What would you call monthly or bi monthly active sex? "Shut him up" or "quota" ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



SLA 

(Apologies to those not in the information technology business)


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> Why do you think that she does not honestly like sex once or twice a month?


63 pages on this thread and about 100 other men battling this same story on this site.... I still have no clue.

And never 2 times a month. I meant once every other month. 2 times a month? that is literally the definition of crazy talk. Don't be foolish.

On a serious note, what time today or tonight should I expect the "no plans for valentines day" questions to start?


----------



## john117

It's a struggle on her behalf to avoid giving in and having sex more often than her internal SLA dictates. Once she knows you're going to comply with this SLA she's as happy as a clam and even "affectionate".

No Valentine Day plans and if she asks simply tell her that as her SLA is about 1/4 of what a "minimum" would be (once a week) and as a cost cutting measure you'll only celebrate Valentine Day every leap year. Give her a Snickers bar and be done. I'll watch a few hours of "Game of Thrones" then off to visit DesignDaughter in college tomorrow.

That's my plan at least.


----------



## Anon Pink

Skip the snickers bar.

It's just any other Friday. 

"A card and flowers? I have no need to give you a card and flowers? Why would I do something I get no pleasure from?"


----------



## usmarriedguy

I doubt at any time. My guess is that she will just be disappointed and not say anything. Maybe she will hold it against you for a few weeks or months. I kind of doubt that she will respond by offering sex unless she is pretty insecure about the marriage. 

I think that the typical response when one person shuts down is that the other shuts down.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon, She is engaged when we have sex. its the lead up to it that I experience the rejection. If shes in, shes very clearly in (and aroused). 

sometime between today and next say 6 days, is when she is frequently "in the mood" or more accepting of initiation. This is the track record for the past say year or so. I've mentally plotted it. So if I wanted to take a stab at it (pun intended) this is my window. 

But alas, I have no desire to initiate for now. I'll just take my energy out on the 2 feet of snow in the driveway here.


----------



## Anon Pink

usmarriedguy said:


> I doubt at any time. My guess is that she will just be disappointed and not say anything. Maybe she will hold it against you for a few weeks or months. I kind of doubt that she will respond by offering sex unless she is pretty insecure about the marriage.
> 
> I think that the typical response when one person shuts down is that the other shuts down.


Exactly...and the power struggle continues.

Back to square one.

Do you head off her questioning thoughts about where her Valentine is, or do you simply avoid (which I never advocate) and ignore the day?

Perhaps a card in which you do express your love but also you sorrow that she doesn't express her love as often as you need her to?

Or

Perhaps a card in which you express your love but also express the need to work things out, and the desire to return to THERAPY.....


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Exactly...and the power struggle continues.
> 
> Back to square one.
> 
> Do you head off her questioning thoughts about where her Valentine is, or do you simply avoid (which I never advocate) and ignore the day?
> 
> Perhaps a card in which you do express your love but also you sorrow that she doesn't express her love as often as you need her to?
> 
> Or
> 
> Perhaps a card in which you express your love but also express the need to work things out, and the desire to return to THERAPY.....


Not really interested in a full blown conversation on the issues. We've beaten this to death as recently as a few weeks ago. She knows how I feel. I've made it very clear. I need a break from repeating myself. I'm having a better time doing my own thing (including parenting), and this seems to be filling a void vid felt elsewhere. I just kinda feel better lately doing my own thing. Sometimes she joins, sometimes not. I have no preference either way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Not really interested in a full blown conversation on the issues. We've beaten this to death as recently as a few weeks ago. She knows how I feel. I've made it very clear. I need a break from repeating myself. I'm having a better time doing my own thing (including parenting), and this seems to be filling a void vid felt elsewhere. I just kinda feel better lately doing my own thing. Sometimes she joins, sometimes not. I have no preference either way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, can't say I blame you. Worried about the indifference you developing. It's what my husband was for years and years. It made me completely indifferent to him.

Your head must be spinning with all of this!

Looking forward to your post tomorrow though....

Shall we take bets on how she responds to you ignoring the day? You don't get to bet you only get to say who was closest.


----------



## Faithful Wife

To take that bet I need to know what the previous 5 or so vdays have looked like in their house. 

BB?


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
This is KEY. She knows what's what. She will bring it up when she is ready to talk. Until then it is toxic for you to keep mentioning it.

You are beginning to accept that your marriage may end and that if it does you will be ok. 







BostonBruins32 said:


> Not really interested in a full blown conversation on the issues. We've beaten this to death as recently as a few weeks ago. She knows how I feel. I've made it very clear. I need a break from repeating myself. I'm having a better time doing my own thing (including parenting), and this seems to be filling a void vid felt elsewhere. I just kinda feel better lately doing my own thing. Sometimes she joins, sometimes not. I have no preference either way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> To take that bet I need to know what the previous 5 or so vdays have looked like in their house.
> 
> BB?


Come on, you've known Princesses before. How does a Princess react to being ignored?

She gives you the silent treatment that begins around bed time. Since her cycle has her at peak in the next few days, she'll be extra venomous. But also be quick to sooth I think.

So, silent treatment beginning tonight, peaking Saturday afternoon, then tapering off to short answers by tomorrow night. Look for clouds and rain on Sunday, followed a thunder storm Sunday night during which several lightening bolts of accusations will be heard.


----------



## john117

Then wait for a month and the cycle repeats, lather, rinse, repeat.

Keep in mind that this is card carrying battle hardened emotional abuse bordering type of LD , not likely "oh honey I did not know it's so important" type of LD. 

Pay careful attention to what she says and how she says it and you'll learn a thing or three about her and even about you from the exchanges...


----------



## Faithful Wife

But it matters what their family ritual usually is, if there is one. Because if there is one, her response will be one way, and if there isn't one, it will be a different way.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I think she'll initiate tonight. I also think the sole reason she'll do so is to make him feel bad for not doing anything for VD.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> Again, can't say I blame you. Worried about the indifference you developing. It's what my husband was for years and years. It made me completely indifferent to him.


The problem is that the alternative is just as bad, if not worse. When he is not indifferent, he is even more miserable while giving her what she wants and needs. She seems to be indifferent to him regardless of his actions, so what to do?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think she'll initiate tonight. I also think the sole reason she'll do so is to make him feel bad for not doing anything for VD.


My bet is that she will be upset and note that she was in the mood, but it has now been ruined by his selfishness.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> My bet is that she will be upset and note that she was in the mood, but it has now been ruined by his selfishness.


I would actually applaud this. Because it's so insane it's impressive. I would literally offer a slow clap
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## outNabout

I'm a HD guy married to LD wife. I don't think she's all that sorry. Usually I don't even hear sorry. Mostly its blame on me for why she thinks its ok to reject again. 

They've rationalize its OK to act like this in the marriage.... And yet its almost a kind of infidelity and not honoring marriage vows.

I think they might just see our desire as inconvenient.... They'd rather continue focusing with their own self interested topic instead. Perhaps very low social skills? In my case its mixed it with some weird bipolar / BPD/ PMDD or whatever that she's in complete denial of. 




The next level of problem is when the LD wife shuts down communication and prevents you even from expressing your needs so they can be met. It destroys the relationship.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> This is KEY. She knows what's what. She will bring it up when she is ready to talk. Until then it is toxic for you to keep mentioning it.
> 
> You are beginning to accept that your marriage may end and that if it does you will be ok.


Totally. I keep thinking, I feel like I'm grieving a loss or something. Like I can see the other side, and I'm more ok with it, but it's still hard and a process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

outNabout said:


> I think they might just see our desire as inconvenient.... They'd rather continue focusing with their own self interested topic instead. Perhaps very low social skills? In my case its mixed it with some weird bipolar / BPD/ PMDD or whatever that she's in complete denial of.



Interesting that you bring low social skills (LSS) in the picture. Without solid social skills a marriage is pretty much toast simply because the LSS partner does not have close friends ergo does not have the frame of reference for what constitutes a marriage. Therefore the LSS partner can easily be swayed by unrealistic portrayals of marriages from places like Lifetime Movie Network, their own culture or family never mind they aren't in the picture, etc.


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> My bet is that she will be upset and note that she was in the mood, but it has now been ruined by his selfishness.



That has been my experience as well. Far as I know Dr. Mrs. LD has nothing planned for tonight so we're good. I'll catch up, appropriately, on Game of Thrones on the DVR


----------



## BostonBruins32

No real reaction. A little quiet but still jovial. She went to bed and I'm watching sports. Waiting for her to fall asleep before I fire up the dirty websites.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Wife watching "Stuck In Love" on Netflix. At least it's not Lifetime Movie Network :rofl:

Based on her Netflix watching history all she's been watching are all chick flicks, some relatively steamy. Good God, these things should be shown in Gitmo as part of psych warfare ops...


----------



## Faithful Wife

John...if you are bored tonight...on netflix, check out this movie called The Rooftop.

My H and I can rarely find a movie we both love.

But somehow the perfect combination appeared for us...

A kung fu love story musical dance movie.

No sh*t!

Here's a trailer...

Jay Chou's 天台 The RooFToP trailer - YouTube

It was excellent...an art film for sure, but very good.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> No real reaction. A little quiet but still jovial. She went to bed and I'm watching sports. Waiting for her to fall asleep before I fire up the dirty websites.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure there will be more reaction tomorrow...


----------



## Trying2figureitout

So I decided yesterday to open up to my next closest sister(10 years older) as she was in town and we talked about everything for well over an hour... not sure I learned anything new but I think it does show a possible solution.

In her own marriage they went through a roughly three year sexless spell in their mid-late 40's. The main issue was not connecting and DEEP resentment. She felt her career did't matter and resented taking a backseat to him, she resented his not caring when she was miserable. He accused her of using sex as a weapon and would be an ******* sometimes....the usual.
She was miserable missing the emotional and he pretended nothing was wrong. They would both do things to get at the other. 

What changed for her was her 50th birthday. At that she made a bunch of photo books about THEIR life not the kids but her and her husbands and she also decided enough is enough and that that day forward there was no past.

At some point perhaps in response to her change, he asked her to sit next to him and held her hand. She said it felt really weird as they had not held hands in ages. Then it didn't feel weird and that triggered something in her. She said it unlocked something in her that one act.

They both agreed to to go to counseling that allowed them eventually to both set aside all resentment and with both working together they made it through.

So I explained my over four year situation to her my sister stated IHO.....

1. My wife is DEFINITELY going though some sort of midlife crisis
2. She does not believe I will leave and has not grown up because in some way she missed out on high school/college emotionally. She said she knew this from her own daughter Facebook and at the rare times she looks at my wife's posts . She behave more like her daughters who are 20-30.
3. She believe I need to shock her and talk about separating or counseling and be prepared to follow through.
4. She has no business texting other men no matter how social she is.
5. She thought I did everything right apart from putting fear in her I would leave and was amazed and commended me for giving her four years to work it out.
6. The she is UNLIKELY to change and will string this out until such a time her feelings somehow return and that she will not change unless presented with the reality I may leave her.
7. She said out of her own friends many empty-nesters divorced (3 of 5), and she is grateful for resolving her marriage.
8. She said to never use the word Divorce, instead to say we may need to split. I guess its in the finality of the words. With "We may need to split if we are unwilling to allow a third party to help us" there is a way out.
9. She said to be positive and simply explain in a friendly way why this has to happen.

That was the first time I opened up to my closest female sibling or any of my closest relatives besides my mom.

I think the moral is again it takes either the LD spouse to decide to do something or some shock factor to to force that decision.

Not sure that's any new news but I wanted to post a success story and how my own sister made it through a sexless non-connected long term marriage to the other side.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

The first half of number 2, all of 3 and 4 we've been telling you for literally years.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> So I explained my situation to her my sister stated:
> 
> *1. My wife is going though some sort of midlife crisis
> 2. She does not believe I will leave and has not grown up because in some way she missed out on high school/college emotionally. She said she knew this from her own daughter Facebook and looking at my wife's posts. She behave more like her daughters who are 20-30.
> 3. She believe I need to shock her and talk about separating or counseling and be prepared to follow through.
> 4. She has no business texting other men no matter how social she is.*
> 
> That was the first time I opened up to my closest sibling.
> 
> I think the moral is again it takes either the LD spouse to decide to do something or some shock factor to to force that decision.
> 
> Not sure that's any new news but I wanted to post a success story and how my own sister made it through a sexless non-connected marriage to the other side.


My only question to you, T2, is this: will you do _as your sister has suggested_? The above, in bold, are things that many of us have stated to you as well. You did push back against us, but are you willing to put your foot down, now? Will you put an end to this behavior, and give her an ultimatum... and follow through?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> My only question to you, T2, is this: will you do _as your sister has suggested_? The above, in bold, are things that many of us have stated to you as well. You did push back against us, but are you willing to put your foot down, now? Will you put an end to this behavior, and give her an ultimatum... and follow through?


I'm undecided at when but definitely at some point yes I will, for both our benefit. I'm financially sound, and fully capable of the single life by being self-sufficient.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

WorkingOnMe said:


> The first half of number 2, all of 3 and 4 we've been telling you for literally years.


Yes you have.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I love how you get some responses then edit to try to make yourself look better for how you've handled things.


----------



## john117

Dr. Mrs. LD is batting 0/9. Just sayin' 

No midlife crisis, no texting other men except for work, no emotional state stuck in college years, she's the one talking about splitting to makes sure "she does not take care of a sick husband", etc etc. 

Despite giving her 8 full weeks of about the nicest I have been to her in five years, there was zero change in behavior and if I had to throw in a professional opinion or two she's actually regressing deeper into whatever. Her workload has increased considerably (translation - it's the same but she's too stressed out to focus) and is even beginning to think of retiring in 3 years. It's likely we will need to move so why bother doing something new and exciting when you can just "take all your toys and go home"...

In a more positive tone she's beginning to understand that she / we do need counseling. Another couple of blowouts and we should be in business.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> Dr. Mrs. LD is batting 0/9. Just sayin'
> 
> No midlife crisis, no texting other men except for work, no emotional state stuck in college years, she's the one talking about splitting to makes sure "she does not take care of a sick husband", etc etc.
> 
> Despite giving her 8 full weeks of about the nicest I have been to her in five years, there was zero change in behavior and if I had to throw in a professional opinion or two she's actually regressing deeper into whatever. Her workload has increased considerably (translation - it's the same but she's too stressed out to focus) and is even beginning to think of retiring in 3 years. It's likely we will need to move so why bother doing something new and exciting when you can just "take all your toys and go home"...
> 
> In a more positive tone she's beginning to understand that she / we do need counseling. Another couple of blowouts and we should be in business.


Well damn John, that's certainly encouraging! And here is where you insert some negative comment designed to negate the encouraging signs....

For a woman with BPD to voluntarily suggest MC.... 

Talking about retiring in 3 years....

She doesn't want to get stuck taking care of a sickly husband? John, are you neglecting your health? How much weight are you carrying around your middle and what is your blood pressure and cholesterol and blood sugar levels? Are you working out at all?

It sounds like she's beginning to look around and wonder what kind of life she has left and wonder what can be done to make it a good one.

That's encouraging!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

WorkingOnMe said:


> I love how you get some responses then edit to try to make yourself look better for how you've handled things.


I edit because I add more to make each post more complete not in response to your or anyone's opinion on my situation or suggestions. I really don't care what you all think you all have your own issues. Instead I post to try to help others in a similar situation. So get over yourself thinking you know my inner mind.

I do believe I "handled" things to the best of my situation and what I want at this stage.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> I edit because I add more to make each post more complete not in response to your or anyone's opinion on my situation or suggestions. I really don't care what you all think you all have your own issues. Instead I post to try to help others in a similar situation. So get over yourself thinking you know my inner mind.
> 
> I do believe I "handled" things to the best of my situation and what I want at this stage.


T2, I understand what he's saying. The post was actually complete as it had been written. You edited, adding points 5-9, about 20 minutes after the original post... and after it had been quoted and had responses. I think, what he may have been saying is that you could easily have written a new post, in response to those who responded to you. Like, I had quoted the first four points, before the rest had been added. The last few were added, after you responded that yes, you intend to take her suggestions. Those points might have been better in that follow up post. At least, that's what would make more sense to me, and I'm guessing to many others. Instead, it looks like we weren't paying attention to what you had written... which hadn't been added until at least 10 minutes after we had responded. 

I hope that made sense to you. If not, I am willing to clarify further.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Your income is much greater than your wife's yes? Especially when benefits are included. 

So far, your willingness to rock the boat has been close to zero. 

Example: I no longer help clean up so much, unless she specifically asks me to. And even then I only do the one specific thing she asked. 

Given the income disparity your wife will quietly roll her eyes the rest of her life over that type stuff while continuing to enjoy the lifestyle you provide her. 

You talk such a BIG game, and play such a little game. The standard female response to that is contempt. 

You should see a therapist by yourself to find out why you are so afraid of being alone. 






Trying2figureitout said:


> I'm undecided at when but definitely at some point yes I will, for both our benefit. I'm financially sound, and fully capable of the single life by being self-sufficient.


----------



## john117

Well, other than the extra 20 lb I am good. Very mild HBP down to normal with a med, blood chem good, EKG great. Just had my physical - great t value despite Propecia lolz... 

Heart disease over 55 is common where we come from and in our families and she is not the caretaker type. But with proper care... My dad lived to 83, grandparents 86-90. Not for me not for herself. Heck I could be Jack Lalanne and she would not want to deal with me. On second thought ole' Jack kicked the bucketaroo a few years ago so... 

She's always what we call hypervigilant. DesignDaughter's roommate got a very obnoxious and entitled cat and the cat has taken over the place demanding attention 24/7. Mom's response was to promptly freak out because the cat may have all kinds of diseases. Can't win. 

It feels she should be left to slide a bit closer to the abyss in order to have the Revelation... Who knows. 

We're driving to her place tomorrow for a food drop. Should be a fun day.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Your income is much greater than your wife's yes? Especially when benefits are included.
> 
> So far, your willingness to rock the boat has been close to zero.
> 
> Example: I no longer help clean up so much, unless she specifically asks me to. And even then I only do the one specific thing she asked.
> 
> Given the income disparity your wife will quietly roll her eyes the rest of her life over that type stuff while continuing to enjoy the lifestyle you provide her.
> 
> You talk such a BIG game, and play such a little game. The standard female response to that is contempt.
> 
> You should see a therapist by yourself to find out why you are so afraid of being alone.


We will see and I'm not afraid to live alone. Our incomes/benefits are similar although now I make more


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Your income is much greater than your wife's yes? Especially when benefits are included.
> 
> So far, your willingness to rock the boat has been close to zero. .



I was under the impression that using income as leverage was generally frowned upon in these here interwebs, no?


----------



## Faithful Wife

John...lose the 20 pounds just so you'll feel awesome. You like revenge, right? Remember what they say about looking good....


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> I was under the impression that using income as leverage was generally frowned upon in these here interwebs, no?


I read MEMs comment here to be directed to the benefits that T2 brings to the table and how his wife enjoys them. As such, she has much to lose if the relationship ends. Yet despite this, she has all the power as he is unwilling to do anything.


----------



## john117

Loosing 20 lbs is for Dr. Quack to stop beaching at me  as much as I complain we do eat pretty healthy foods. 

Up to 5 years ago I was walking 4-5 miles every day. Our city is well known for it's tree lined walking trails so we always hit the trail after work. 

Post Rapture she continued her walks sans moi as I was either treated to 90 minutes of beaching about work or was given the silent treatment. Eventually going on a walk with her became too stressful and I preferred our threadmill instead. 

I plan to start walking with her again assuming this winter actually ends and that we can actually have some time alone to talk and not either go at each other or ignore each other altogether.


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> I read MEMs comment here to be directed to the benefits that T2 brings to the table and how his wife enjoys them. As such, she has much to lose if the relationship ends. Yet despite this, she has all the power as he is unwilling to do anything.



Won't work. Not in hardcore cases at least. 

Despite similar incomes my wife would be toast for other reasons in the event of a split yet this does not seem to deter her very much.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> Won't work. Not in hardcore cases at least.
> 
> Despite similar incomes my wife would be toast for other reasons in the event of a split yet this does not seem to deter her very much.


You assume it is a hard core case. It may be, but since T2 has not been willing to try any of the advice that he has been given, no one has any idea what she is.


----------



## Faithful Wife

This is for John...I have a forum-friend who I've followed for 10 years. He was in a sexless marriage, she had CSA issues, he was a NG. They went to sex therapy, tried to make things work for years and years. The lack of connection and interest from her was his main problem. She just couldn't get it, isn't able to have real emotional intimacy...and finally they called it quits after 4 kids and 23 years together.

But in the last year they were together, he knew it was coming to an end and started working out, dieting, and getting fit. He reversed his HBP, lost 30 pounds, and is in better shape than he was at 25. He had moved into the basement and began an in house separation for that year.

By the time he was on the market again, he was a lean, mean machine...really ready for love, sex and intimacy.

He found a really great woman within 6 months.

And the guy is blind, mid-50's, and has half his previous financial picture due to the divorce....but now happily falling in love and truly appreciated emotionally, physically, etc.

Plus he looks great! 

Also...he and this woman are both in the science field, and they are peers. Part of the attraction is on the mental realm.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I was simply trying to confirm that her motivation for staying with him was financial because if you read T2's threads from way back, it is apparent that his W:
- Was very deep into at minimum an EA, and more likely a full blown PA
- Had no energy for him at all despite having the energy to spend 2 full hours a day with her EA/PA pal at the gym (or in the gym parking lot) 
- Strenuously resisted cutting back on her pattern of constant texting with her workout pal when T2 discovered her constant communication with this guy
- Strongly discouraged T2 from working out with her
- Had 'back problems' that required her to lie down in a manner that precluded him from lying next to her while watching tv at night 

I thought that T2 implied early on in his 4 year+ drought that he had a 'much better job' than she did. Maybe I'm wrong. Four years is a long time to keep track of stuff. 

It is also true that if you read his posts from the first two years, you feel some sympathy for his W. He engaged in a fairly constant stream of Big talk, tiny walk despite getting a lot of feedback on what he should and shouldn't do. 




john117 said:


> I was under the impression that using income as leverage was generally frowned upon in these here interwebs, no?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> I was simply trying to confirm that her motivation for staying with him was financial because if you read T2's threads from way back, it is apparent that his W:
> - Was very deep into at minimum an EA, and more likely a full blown PA
> - Had no energy for him at all despite having the energy to spend 2 full hours a day with her EA/PA pal at the gym (or in the gym parking lot)
> - Strenuously resisted cutting back on her pattern of constant texting with her workout pal when T2 discovered her constant communication with this guy
> - Strongly discouraged T2 from working out with her
> - Had 'back problems' that required her to lie down in a manner that precluded him from lying next to her while watching tv at night
> 
> I thought that T2 implied early on in his 4 year+ drought that he had a 'much better job' than she did. Maybe I'm wrong. Four years is a long time to keep track of stuff.
> 
> It is also true that if you read his posts from the first two years, you feel some sympathy for his W. He engaged in a fairly constant stream of Big talk, tiny walk despite getting a lot of feedback on what he should and shouldn't do.


To clarify our incomes are fairly equal however next year I will make 10% more and our house will be paid off before 2025

No back problems

She still texts him

I stay because I choose to stay simple as that not because of something my wife does at all I wrote that off years ago.... I like our house, area and being with the family. I can be self sufficient, independently secure and attract women at this moment staying is the best option from my own self perspective. 

Sex is only one thing that I have learned to do without..because that was the situation.


----------



## john117

My plan of action with said details would include a bit more action than what is being called here - to a great extent my significant other is closer to the "stupid" part of the much criticized LD spectrum between "stupid" and "evil" but from what I'm reading above about Mrs. T2 is significantly closer to the "evil" end of the spectrum. But in general I thought that marital economic warfare is frowned upon...

What would Dr. J. Do? 

Let's see. I would find ways to spill the beans up to Mrs. Gym Rat, definitely, and the T2 / Mrs. T2 extended family. 

Prior to that of course I would invest in a very good PI to find evidence if a real PA occurred, That's not DIY despite my closet full of Nikon gear . If evidence is forthcoming then go forth and spilleth thy beans... 

Sorry, T2, but you're not dealing with someone with "reduced emotional capacity" to put it mildly. Yea, I like my 6,000 sq ft home and various material possessions, but there's a big difference between illness and deception. We're not talking "not tonight honey I have a toothache" type deception. 

You also need to figure out, like I suggested to our other friend, why is she still married to you? Again, money, love, or power / status as the bard says. Easy to eliminate 2 of 3... 

Do this simple mental exercise. Pretend a piano fell on you right when you were about to enter your office building and you succumbed to a brutal case of "E minor". Divide marital property into two, she gets half, then what? What will she NOT have then that she has now? 

Answer that honestly and you'll be a lot closer to where you want to be. Otherwise, your marriage will be like the NFL season where everyone goes 8 and 8 and OMG how do we pick playoff teams? A perfect stalemate.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> My plan of action with said details would include a bit more action than what is being called here - to a great extent my significant other is closer to the "stupid" part of the much criticized LD spectrum between "stupid" and "evil" but from what I'm reading above about Mrs. T2 is significantly closer to the "evil" end of the spectrum. But in general I thought that marital economic warfare is frowned upon...
> 
> What would Dr. J. Do?
> 
> Let's see. I would find ways to spill the beans up to Mrs. Gym Rat, definitely, and the T2 / Mrs. T2 extended family.
> 
> Prior to that of course I would invest in a very good PI to find evidence if a real PA occurred, That's not DIY despite my closet full of Nikon gear . If evidence is forthcoming then go forth and spilleth thy beans...
> 
> Sorry, T2, but you're not dealing with someone with "reduced emotional capacity" to put it mildly. Yea, I like my 6,000 sq ft home and various material possessions, but there's a big difference between illness and deception. We're not talking "not tonight honey I have a toothache" type deception.
> 
> You also need to figure out, like I suggested to our other friend, why is she still married to you? Again, money, love, or power / status as the bard says. Easy to eliminate 2 of 3...
> 
> Do this simple mental exercise. Pretend a piano fell on you right when you were about to enter your office building and you succumbed to a brutal case of "E minor". Divide marital property into two, she gets half, then what? What will she NOT have then that she has now?
> 
> Answer that honestly and you'll be a lot closer to where you want to be. Otherwise, your marriage will be like the NFL season where everyone goes 8 and 8 and OMG how do we pick playoff teams? A perfect stalemate.


Well i don't know about all that. I was simply clarifying misconception and don't want to make this thread about me or my situation i am only offering BB some idea of what to expect.

In time I will have a thread of my own when there is something new to report.
I don't believe in evil intent on my spouses part.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> I don't believe in evil intent on my spouses part.



Your faith in humanity is duly noted. Maybe some of my wife's paranoia has rubbed off on me but if this thread is accurate we're talking Art Bell level conspiracy here...

How about the Steinway question? What is Mrs. T2 getting out of staying married?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> Your faith in humanity is duly noted. Maybe some of my wife's paranoia has rubbed off on me but if this thread is accurate we're talking Art Bell level conspiracy here...
> 
> How about the Steinway question? What is Mrs. T2 getting out of staying married?


Hmm... well judging from the fact that she has had every opportunity to leave me I would assume a lot ... even in my current less than ideal state of matching her effort.

I think she likes the idea of being married and does not want to end up divorced she sees what happens then to the people she knows. I offer stability, smarts and am the strong father that has control over the kids.

At the basic core I think she would find being single bad in two ways...one it would change her routine which is well thought out to suit her, two she cannot admit failure or live up to the fact her marriage failed and that she failed.

I do believe she is "trying" and has over the past four years but I'm not sure she can flip the switch unless I apply the pressure my sister spoke of. I believe she feels eventually she will work her way back to me but by then it may be too late....she already wasted the years in which I gave max effort and understanding now it'll be harder for her as I've lost the understanding and compassion.


----------



## john117

Regardless, it's basically a battle of wits and the person that takes no action wins. So, upset this balance the honorable way - separation - or the questionable way - warfare -

Separation would give her a taste of what it means to be single. If she survives the more power to her. If warfare is your choice as it has been mine, you basically disrupt the status quo and undermine her whole "mmm I could live like this forever" train of thought. 

Steady state never won anyone anything unless they're a flywheel. And as we know flywheels go around and round, have a lot of energy, and that's it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

So she's been very sick with stomach bug yesterday and overnight . She was quiet and miserable . Nice to me though. So the no vday plans may rake longer to sink in or it's really non impactful. Oh we'll . I'm taking my daughter for bbq today. Happy vday to me!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

That bug is making the rounds! So far, knock on wood, it has escaped us. It has to, if my sister catches it she'll be in the hospital!

Hopefully, your daughter won't get it.

If she hasn't made a stink about no v day plans yet, my guess is it won't happen. But will be tucked away to be pulled out for ammo on another day. Probably Father's Day or your birthday.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> That bug is making the rounds! So far, knock on wood, it has escaped us. It has to, if my sister catches it she'll be in the hospital!
> 
> Hopefully, your daughter won't get it.
> 
> If she hasn't made a stink about no v day plans yet, my guess is it won't happen. But will be tucked away to be pulled out for ammo on another day. Probably Father's Day or your birthday.


Rest assured ALL slights are permanently logged in the ROLODEX called a woman's brain... I queried my sister about it and she laughed and told me its absolutely true. They remember EVERY slight to the moment they met you. She also confirmed its emotions and that men don't get the emotional part. She said a lot of stuff just goes over our heads and that women are an emotional mess. These emotions just come out of nowhere and fly over the top of a mans understanding. I think she would rather have the logical male brain.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> *Rest assured ALL slights are permanently logged in the ROLODEX called a woman's brain... I queried my sister about it and she laughed and told me its absolutely true. They remember EVERY slight to the moment they met you.* She also confirmed its emotions and that men don't get the emotional part. She said a lot of stuff just goes over our heads and that women are an emotional mess. These emotions just come out of nowhere and fly over the top of a mans understanding. I think she would rather have the logical male brain.


Hmmm... I must be weird. I don't remember every single "slight".


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> Hmmm... I must be weird. I don't remember every single "slight".


You are weird for being here a caring so you likely found a way to suppress the specific slights I'll bet they are there somewhere where in Men they are erased not enough room to store. Men categorize the slights to save space, ask us for specifics we forget but we know we are getting the shaft.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> You are weird for being here a caring so you likely found a way to suppress the specific slights I'll bet they are there somewhere where in Men they are erased not enough room to store. Men categorize the slights to save space, ask us for specifics we forget but we know we are getting the shaft.


Sorry, T2, I disagree again. There have often been times, and I do mean OFTEN when my husband and I have been in disagreement on something, and he would bring up things that were long forgotten by ME. Things I have done where HE felt slighted. My point is that generalizations are ridiculous. Yes, many women will remember and use them as ammunition, but not all do. Same with men... Sure, many don't remember the specifics, but there are some who do. If it is an ongoing thing, meaning it is repeated over and over in the same manner, then yes, I do remember THOSE. But if it was once, or even a few times, 10 years ago, no, I don't remember it. It's not about suppressing anything. I genuinely do not remember. Why? Because it is unimportant. And it's ridiculous to hold something over someone decades later.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> That bug is making the rounds! So far, knock on wood, it has escaped us. It has to, if my sister catches it she'll be in the hospital!
> 
> Hopefully, your daughter won't get it.
> 
> If she hasn't made a stink about no v day plans yet, my guess is it won't happen. But will be tucked away to be pulled out for ammo on another day. Probably Father's Day or your birthday.



It was a funny day. Her mom asked to have our daughter overnight to take her to some show.. So midday yesterday daughter leaves and wife starts up the " not feeling so well" commentary . This is usually female for no sex later. But to my surprise, the wife who called wolf starts getting sick a few hours later. My assumption is she willed her way to it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> It was a funny day. Her mom asked to have our daughter overnight to take her to some show.. So midday yesterday daughter leaves and wife starts up the " not feeling so well" commentary . This is usually female for no sex later. But to my surprise, the wife who called wolf starts getting sick a few hours later. My assumption is she willed her way to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL don't you love the precursor warnings.... funny when they bite them on the butt. Not even sure why my wife still does them not like I attempt much.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> Sorry, T2, I disagree again. There have often been times, and I do mean OFTEN when my husband and I have been in disagreement on something, and he would bring up things that were long forgotten by ME. Things I have done where HE felt slighted. My point is that generalizations are ridiculous. Yes, many women will remember and use them as ammunition, but not all do. Same with men... Sure, many don't remember the specifics, but there are some who do. If it is an ongoing thing, meaning it is repeated over and over in the same manner, then yes, I do remember THOSE. But if it was once, or even a few times, 10 years ago, no, I don't remember it. It's not about suppressing anything. I genuinely do not remember. Why? Because it is unimportant. And it's ridiculous to hold something over someone decades later.


I stand behind my statement about women in general and their mental ROLODEX, and most men live day to day and don't whine about their spouses flaws to their spouse as that is counter productive for a man to do.

It is ridiculous to hold something over for decades...so whats up women why do you go back to your wedding to find fault? Justification?

Again you and all women here are atypical of the average woman..and I don't care to sugar coat reality in a forum searching for answers. I'm not PC when it comes to the grim reality of sex issues.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> LOL don't you love the precursor warnings.... funny when they bite them on the butt. Not even sure why my wife still does them not like I attempt much.


It's crazy. Usually on way home after date. Or dinner. Somehow the tired or sickness feeling never prohibits from have a dessert at home or staying up till 1am
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> It's crazy. Usually on way home after date. Or dinner. Somehow the tired or sickness feeling never prohibits from have a dessert at home or staying up till 1am
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just be glad you aren't a woman... they are weird and very unmanly. Men would just say straight up NO, leave me alone or I'll get to it when I want. Women have to go about it in a ridiculous round about way that is comical and disturbing.

Its not like they a fooling anyone. They pretend they like sex to stay married when EVERY action states otherwise.

It would be better if they all just flatly stated:

"I like sex when I need it... but after doing it for years you are no longer attractive to me that way."

Then let the chips fall where they may. Instead they play this ridiculous game.

My sister states the act is really nothing and does little for her and is no big deal... its more all the emotions it takes to get there to where its acceptable.

That's the reality its nothing and work for women. Our wives are basically lazy in terms of sex and not willing to do the emotional journey to it regularly or at all.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> *Just be glad you aren't a woman... they are weird and very unmanly.* Men would just say straight up NO, leave me alone or I'll get to it when I want. Women have to go about it in a ridiculous round about way that is comical and disturbing.
> 
> Its not like they a fooling anyone.


I, for one, am glad I'm not a man. Why? Because when men get sick, they are the biggest babies. I mean, really, just a sniffle and it's like you are dying. Give me a break! Get up, do some work, you'll live!

See how generalizations work, there, T2? Or... are you one of those babies when you're sick, too? 

Seriously, though, why would you want a manly woman? I can't say I would want a girly man... :scratchhead: That makes no sense.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> They pretend they like sex to stay married when EVERY action states otherwise.
> 
> It would be better if they just flatly stated:
> 
> "I like sex when I need it... but after doing it for years you are no longer attractive to me that way."
> 
> Then let the chips fall where they may. Instead they play this ridiculous game.


There you go again... YOUR wife is NOT like every woman, T2. MOST women I know DO like sex. Take your sister's advice. Just stop wallowing in the self pity!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> There you go again... YOUR wife is NOT like every woman, T2. MOST women I know DO like sex. Take your sister's advice. Just stop wallowing in the self pity!


How often do MOST women strike that...wives you know *have sex* AND like it? How many initiate?

I like to water ski last time I did that was 20 years ago. Oh and my wife "Likes sex" just ask her.

I am not wallowing just stating fact.

Actions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>words


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> I, for one, am glad I'm not a man. Why? Because when men get sick, they are the biggest babies. I mean, really, just a sniffle and it's like you are dying. Give me a break! Get up, do some work, you'll live!
> 
> See how generalizations work, there, T2? Or... are you one of those babies when you're sick, too?
> 
> Seriously, though, why would you want a manly woman? I can't say I would want a girly man... :scratchhead: That makes no sense.


I agree most men are babies... I never take sick days and choose to infect others.
Luckily I don't get sick much.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
There are 7 married couples (including ours) in me and Mrs. MEM's sibling group.
The largest age spread between the spouses in that group is 5 years.

Age range: 45 to 70

Sexual frequency:
Ranges from 3-4 times a week down to once a week for six of the seven couples. The one 'sexless' couple is now only 'half' sexless as the HD husband found a lover. That marriage is now ending. 

So only one out of seven marriages was sexless. And the rest were at a once a week or better frequency. 


QUOTE=Trying2figureitout;7158233]How often do MOST women strike that...wives you know *have sex* AND like it? How many initiate?

I like to water ski last time I did that was 20 years ago. Oh and my wife "Likes sex" just ask her.

I am not wallowing just stating fact.

Actions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>words[/QUOTE]


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> How often do MOST women you know *have sex* AND like it? How many initiate?
> 
> I like to water ski last time I did that was 20 years ago. Oh and my wife "Likes sex" just ask her.
> 
> I am not wallowing just stating fact.
> 
> Actions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>words


Well, currently, my sister isn't... because she and her boyfriend are waiting until they get married. She is divorced, and had sex VERY often, even with previous boyfriends. But this one, THEY decided together to wait until they marry. They are very much attracted to each other. They cuddle and even without touching each other sexually, my sister has told me HERSELF that she is sexually aroused by him.

One friend just got married a few weeks ago. She joked that he was wearing her out lol. This, after HE was keeping HER at bay. SHE is the nympho in their marriage. SHE wants it all the time. She'd prefer multiple times each day... he holds her off to 4-5 days per week. 

My other sister, again, likes sex.. her husband is always on the computer, playing video games. She wants to spend more time with him, he wants to be holed up in the den.

And, finally, we get to me... I don't get it nearly as often as I would like. We're not sexless, but I don't push my husband because of medical issues. Between back pain which he is getting physical therapy to, hopefully, fix, and the low T, I don't push him. And, just so we're clear, I WANT sex daily... I can LIVE with it 3-4 times a week, I can ACCEPT once a week... But my PREFERENCE is 5-7 times each week. Yea, nearly daily is what *I* want.

There are many more women I know who are like I described above. The problem is that men, such as you, have a hard time believing that we exist, solely because of your own experiences. I can't blame you for feeling that way. But what I CAN blame you for is not acknowledging the FACT that more women like us exist than you have come in contact with. I do feel bad for you, though. Why? Because the nonsense your wife has pulled on you has you so warped that you can't see past HER actions to see that WE exist... and that WE are real. And that SHE has broken you. Oh, I'm sure you may try to deny that fact. But it's true. She's broken you. You only see what she has done to you, and are unwilling to accept that we women are not all like that.


ETA: Oh, and as for how often we initiate, I'd say at least 45% of the time. I'd say 50%, but you are likely to shoot that down as being untrue. In the case of my nympho friend... she's likely 60%, but again, you probably don't believe that either.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Maricha75 said:


> There you go again... YOUR wife is NOT like every woman, T2. MOST women I know DO like sex. Take your sister's advice. Just stop wallowing in the self pity!


Ehh if your playing a numbers game, more women lose interest than men. It's not 90/10 but we know it's more than 50/50. Or maybe just in my circle of friends and my wife's circle. Tgat said it's not sex. It's attraction or empathy for husband they lose. Again, women really enjoy sex with new partners. Women find some athletes or actors sexually attractive. Wives still feel sexual , just not towards you( or me). 

So what to do? There's a very real chance that no matter what I do or how I act, wife could never desire me as more than a dad to her kid and a financially sound roomate. In this case you have to ask yourself if this is working or not working. And sometimes I think about the counselor's suggestion that hears issues we have are with ourselves and wound surface with any partner. So amongst other issues , his tells me my wife could very likely divorced me , meet a new guy, bang him daily for 2 years, then slide right back into 6-10 times per year. So if you work on yourself and gain no traction, do remember tgat at some point you are not the problem. That's actually pretty comforting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Maricha,
Yep - I'm more the one who holds onto stuff in our marriage, not Mrs. MEM. 

Then again, I tend to do that with stuff that's unresolved. Once something really is resolved, I let it go. 

As for T2, his wife's resentments are simply one more reason she gives to keep him out of her panties.....





Maricha75 said:


> Sorry, T2, I disagree again. There have often been times, and I do mean OFTEN when my husband and I have been in disagreement on something, and he would bring up things that were long forgotten by ME. Things I have done where HE felt slighted. My point is that generalizations are ridiculous. Yes, many women will remember and use them as ammunition, but not all do. Same with men... Sure, many don't remember the specifics, but there are some who do. If it is an ongoing thing, meaning it is repeated over and over in the same manner, then yes, I do remember THOSE. But if it was once, or even a few times, 10 years ago, no, I don't remember it. It's not about suppressing anything. I genuinely do not remember. Why? Because it is unimportant. And it's ridiculous to hold something over someone decades later.


----------



## Maricha75

BostonBruins32 said:


> Ehh if your playing a numbers game, more women lose interest than men. It's not 90/10 but we know it's more than 50/50. Or maybe just in my circle of friends and my wife's circle. Tgat said it's not sex. It's attraction or empathy for husband they lose. Again, women really enjoy sex with new partners. Women find some athletes or actors sexually attractive. Wives still feel sexual , just not towards you( or me).
> 
> So what to do? There's a very real chance that no matter what I do or how I act, wife could never desire me as more than a dad to her kid and a financially sound roomate. In this case you have to ask yourself if this is working or not working. And sometimes I think about the counselor's suggestion that hears issues we have are with ourselves and wound surface with any partner. So amongst other issues , his tells me my wife could very likely divorced me , meet a new guy, bang him daily for 2 years, then slide right back into 6-10 times per year. So if you work on yourself and gain no traction, do remember tgat at some point you are not the problem. That's actually pretty comforting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't speak for your wife. I won't pretend to do so. All I'm saying is that I know for a FACT that some of us do like sex, and we enjoy it with the men we have been with long term, not just brand new. I can't understand women who do what your wife does, or has done. This is a foreign concept for me. Just as, I imagine, it's hard to imagine a woman who enjoys sex and even other forms of intimacy with her husband. More than anything, it is the women, who behave as you have stated your wife does, who make me mad. Your wife, and the wives of the others here, need to be honest with you guys. It isn't right, nor fair, to you to keep acting like that.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> How often do MOST women strike that...wives you know *have sex* AND like it? How many initiate?
> 
> I like to water ski last time I did that was 20 years ago. Oh and my wife "Likes sex" just ask her.
> 
> I am not wallowing just stating fact.
> 
> Actions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>words




Ahem!

Do Re MEMEMEMEMEME!!!!!


----------



## BostonBruins32

Maricha75 said:


> I can't speak for your wife. I won't pretend to do so. All I'm saying is that I know for a FACT that some of us do like sex, and we enjoy it with the men we have been with long term, not just brand new. I can't understand women who do what your wife does, or has done. This is a foreign concept for me. Just as, I imagine, it's hard to imagine a woman who enjoys sex and even other forms of intimacy with her husband. More than anything, it is the women, who behave as you have stated your wife does, who make me mad. Your wife, and the wives of the others here, need to be honest with you guys. It isn't right, nor fair, to you to keep acting like that.


Some of you do. Totally agree. In my circle and wife's circle , and what you read online, some = well less than 50%. Whatever. Point is it's a common problem. I think things would change in a broader perspective if more men had the balls to say " I'm not accepting this, adios . " as always, threats and talks mean nothing to ld partners if they are not followed through with by actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> It was a funny day. Her mom asked to have our daughter overnight to take her to some show.. So midday yesterday daughter leaves and wife starts up the " not feeling so well" commentary . This is usually female for no sex later. But to my surprise, the wife who called wolf starts getting sick a few hours later. My assumption is she willed her way to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



100 Points for Gryfindor!!!


----------



## Openminded

I think it's definitely true some percentage of LD women need the "new" to be interested in sex. After some period of time, maybe fairly quickly or maybe longer, the new becomes the old and they lose interest. Maybe they'll stay in that pattern for the rest of their lives or they might cheat or their husband might get a divorce and the LD former wife finds someone new to interest her sexually for awhile. Before she's bored again.


----------



## Lyris

I think that's definitely true. I read a study a while ago which showed women were more likely to get aroused by a new partner, men by a familiar one.

That's not to say it's unavoidable, but I think it's a reality and we may as well deal with it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Lyris said:


> I think that's definitely true. I read a study a while ago which showed women were more likely to get aroused by a new partner, men by a familiar one.
> 
> That's not to say it's unavoidable, but I think it's a reality and we may as well deal with it.


Do not marry. Boom! solved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

You know, this thread is titled LD women please chime in. I am a lower drive woman and I have written several carefully though out posts from my perspective.

You basically haven't acknowledged any of them. It obviously should be titled 'bitter men who's wives won't have sex with you, please chime in'


----------



## BostonBruins32

Lyris said:


> You know, this thread is titled LD women please chime in. I am a lower drive woman and I have written several carefully though out posts from my perspective.
> 
> You basically haven't acknowledged any of them. It obviously should be titled 'bitter men who's wives won't have sex with you, please chime in'


I actually fake your input pretty serious. It jives with what seems to be going on. So to my point, if women lose interest in husbands after x years, that screams to me that the institution of marriage is he problem. No marriage, no expectations of sexual compatibility. It's a totally valid thought process if biologically most women lose interest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

Right. Except that was one post out of the several I've made here describing the dynamic between my husband and I and how both of us contribute to keeping our marriage sexual.

You have chosen to focus on the post that basically lets you off the hook.


----------



## MEM2020

LMAO

Actually, I do hope that folks looking for advice here give differing weight to posters based on the actual results those posters are achieving. 

And maybe also supply some common sense. 

For instance, Lyris keeps posting stuff that is so close to verbatim to what Mrs. MEM says/does that it's scary. 

Two LD women who don't know each other, have never corresponded, and yet their interaction patterns with their H, and their underlying behavioral drivers are very similar. 




Lyris said:


> You know, this thread is titled LD women please chime in. I am a lower drive woman and I have written several carefully though out posts from my perspective.
> 
> You basically haven't acknowledged any of them. It obviously should be titled 'bitter men who's wives won't have sex with you, please chime in'


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> So amongst other issues , his tells me my wife could very likely divorced me , meet a new guy, bang him daily for 2 years, then slide right back into 6-10 times per year. So if you work on yourself and gain no traction, do remember tgat at some point you are not the problem. That's actually pretty comforting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't help but wonder what your wife's response is to this line of thought? That her low sex drive will make any husband bitterly unhappy, including her first. That few men would be happy with a wife who cares so little about something that is so vital to them?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> I can't help but wonder what your wife's response is to this line of thought? That her low sex drive will make any husband bitterly unhappy, including her first. That few men would be happy with a wife who cares so little about something that is so vital to them?


Huge narcissism in my posts. But really think about it . She 100 % to date does not care. If she did, she'd try. A similar drive husband/bf would be perfect for her. Heavy for 2 yrs then good night. It's not tgat I'm trying to be an ass but rather dealing with reality. Please tell me how you see this differently given everything I've laid out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Lyris said:


> Right. Except that was one post out of the several I've made here describing the dynamic between my husband and I and how both of us contribute to keeping our marriage sexual.
> 
> You have chosen to focus on the post that basically lets you off the hook.



Science tends to generate more knowledge from failure of the hypothesis rather than from occasional success. You, GettingIt, and some other women have found ways to address LD in terms of your own family's dynamics. This is valuable information, but I would really like to hear, say, Mrs. T2, Mrs. BB, et. al. tell us why. 

In psychology, and behavioral psychology especially, we often learn by observing behaviors, making a hypothesis, then collecting evidence to prove or disprove said hypothesis. 

It is encouraging to hear stories of success but also needed are stories where the status quo prevails...


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> For instance, Lyris keeps posting stuff that is so close to verbatim to what Mrs. MEM says/does that it's scary.
> 
> 
> 
> Two LD women who don't know each other, have never corresponded, and yet their interaction patterns with their H, and their underlying behavioral drivers are very similar.



Unfortunately, people like BB or T2 or me or what have you are not married to Lyris or Mrs. MEM. Different root causes, different outcomes.

A skilled therapist needs all sides of the story to make suggestions. While I would gladly sign away the title to my beloved Mini S to be a fly on the wall in a marriage counseling session between, say, Dr. Mrs. LD and Mr. MEM, that's not what we are dealing with here. 

Give me a few Dr. Mrs. LD's and Mrs. T2's and Mrs. BB's on TAM for a year and we might get an idea.


----------



## Lyris

Maybe if you, BB and T2 et al were more like MEM or my husband then you'd get the same results. 

Although I give you a bit of a pass John, as your wife sounds distinctly crazy.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

john117 said:


> Give me a few Dr. Mrs. LD's and Mrs. T2's and Mrs. BB's on TAM for a year and we might get an idea.


Refusers get run out of here pretty quickly. If you want to collect that kind of data you have to go someplace where their attitude is tolerated. Perhaps Circle of Moms or another forum.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Lyris said:


> Maybe if you, BB and T2 et al were more like MEM or my husband then you'd get the same results.
> 
> Although I give you a bit of a pass John, as your wife sounds distinctly crazy.


Except that I'm willing to change improve etc... My wife is the one who decided she was done with counseling. Either we both suck at this marriage or we both don't. I can only move 50%
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Lyris said:


> Maybe if you, BB and T2 et al were more like MEM or my husband then you'd get the same results.
> 
> Although I give you a bit of a pass John, as your wife sounds distinctly crazy.



No disagreement but without knowing how they think we will be here debating the same thing for another 10 years.

The fact remains that you're trying to insert a round peg into a square hole. I'm not Mr. MEM anymore than BB is not Mr. Lyris and so on 

A trained therapist knows that therapy is not matching apparent symptom A with action X. Instead, they use their experience and training to find the root causes of symptom A then match them with actions. 

MMSL or NMMNG for hardcore cases (not very successful) fail exactly because they suggest a very simplistic one size fits all approach to a tremendously complicated problem.

The closest I ever came to reading why was from Lady Of The Lake if memory serves correctly and predictably she disappeared.


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> Refusers get run out of here pretty quickly. If you want to collect that kind of data you have to go someplace where their attitude is tolerated. Perhaps Circle of Moms or another forum.


Circle of moms = lifetime channel

I think I'm tired. My sarcasm is outweighing normal coherent thoughts. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

bostonbruins32 said:


> circle of moms = lifetime channel
> _posted via mobile device_



View attachment 16985


----------



## Lyris

LOTL hated sex and didn't give a sh*t if her husband felt differently. The end.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Lyris your Lyrking recording is gone!!!


----------



## john117

Lyris said:


> LOTL hated sex and didn't give a sh*t if her husband felt differently. The end.



And this is different than what we're seeing here because....

That's exactly what we need!

(Prepares to read LOTL postings...)


----------



## Trying2figureitout

WorkingOnMe said:


> Refusers get run out of here pretty quickly. If you want to collect that kind of data you have to go someplace where their attitude is tolerated. Perhaps Circle of Moms or another forum.


I don't think my wife would ever post to a Forum along these lines.
Facebook sure but not something to get insight or help. I would be shocked if she ever did.

I think most refusers are stuck in a fishbowl and create their own world. 

AS for MC I asked for that about year 1 into our sexless epoch. Her answer "Well how are they going to change my feelings" I told my sister her answer..and she just rolled her eyes and shook her head. Refusers are a tough nut to crack.


----------



## soccermom2three

Lyris said:


> LOTL hated sex and didn't give a sh*t if her husband felt differently. The end.


I believe she also equated breast milk with bodily waste. (I didn't want to get to graphic.)


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Huge narcissism in my posts. But really think about it . She 100 % to date does not care. If she did, she'd try. A similar drive husband/bf would be perfect for her. Heavy for 2 yrs then good night. It's not tgat I'm trying to be an ass but rather dealing with reality. Please tell me how you see this differently given everything I've laid out
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Having recently found a way to reach my husband (which was the white flag of surrender followed by discussions of exactly how to split up, along with a slow decline back to his default, followed by yet another declaration of breaking the deal) I do see it differently.

Have you told her you are losing interest in this marriage because she has no interest in sex and no interest in figuring it out? Have you said those I diluted words to her?


----------



## daffodilly

Lyris said:


> LOTL hated sex and didn't give a sh*t if her husband felt differently. The end.


I often wondering if she was the real deal or just effing with us.


----------



## Openminded

Some LD wives are willing to work on their problem and some aren't. The ones who aren't consider it their husbands' problem and not theirs. They really just don't care. 

If you are so misfortunate as to have one of those LD wives who doesn't care that there is a problem then your options are limited to accepting or leaving. 

You can't make her care.


----------



## PinkSalmon13

Openminded said:


> Some LD wives are willing to work on their problem and some aren't. The ones who aren't consider it their husbands' problem and not theirs. They really just don't care.
> 
> If you are so misfortunate as to have one of those LD wives who doesn't care that there is a problem then your options are limited to accepting or leaving.
> 
> You can't make her care.


:iagree:, and I agree from experience!


----------



## Lyris

john117 said:


> And this is different than what we're seeing here because....
> 
> That's exactly what we need!
> 
> (Prepares to read LOTL postings...)


No point. She had no real revelations, or reasons, or strategies for anyone.

She was either a fake or a sociopath in my opinion.


----------



## john117

But she was fun to read... Kind of like 50 Shades of Gray without the sex details 

I seem to remember in her case it was all about control. Pure 100 proof evil. What's the point of "controlling" someone? Just to see if it's doable? Just to pay back for some unthinkable act done to you?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Openminded said:


> Some LD wives are willing to work on their problem and some aren't. The ones who aren't consider it their husbands' problem and not theirs. They really just don't care.
> 
> If you are so misfortunate as to have one of those LD wives who doesn't care that there is a problem then your options are limited to accepting or leaving.
> 
> You can't make her care.



exactly. so before the outliers beat me up for my pessimism, please remember it is with good reason. I'm totally cool with mismatched libidos for XYZ reasons, but those reasons need to be communicated. If you do not want to communicate with your spouse, especially regarding something that involves emotional connection, then you do NOT have a marriage.


----------



## john117

In their mind, tho, they do have a wonderful and fulfilling marriage. This perception gap is huge...

Hence the need for marital fireworks. For mild cases, MMSL type stuff should work, but for heavy duty cases, store bought fireworks are rarely sufficient :rofl:

Unfortunately pro grade fireworks are like nukes, once deployed there's rarely a way out of the mess.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Except that I'm willing to change improve etc... My wife is the one who decided she was done with counseling. Either we both suck at this marriage or we both don't. I can only move 50%
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would submit that you are only doing part of what needs to be done. While you have worked to improve yourself, you still reward her poor treatment of you. You continue to validate her and her needs even as she ignores you. Yet you wonder why your mixed messages are not being received like you want.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> exactly. so before the outliers beat me up for my pessimism, please remember it is with good reason. I'm totally cool with mismatched libidos for XYZ reasons, but those reasons need to be communicated. If you do not want to communicate with your spouse, especially regarding something that involves emotional connection, then you do NOT have a marriage.


Ok here's the deal....

The reason your wife does not explain is SHE DOESN'T KNOW THE ANSWER.

Its like asking me why I don't like celery... well I do sometimes in stuffing but not raw? I guess its the taste? Can I learn to live without celery in my diet sure. Could I learn to love celery... hard to envision that.

She either feels sexually attracted to you and wants sex with you or doesn't and she doesn't know specifically why. All she knows is she PREFERS not to have sex with YOU as evidenced by her actions.

So asking her to TELL YOU and explain HOW TO CORRECT IT cannot happen. In the same way I cannot tell anyone how to make myself like and enjoy celery raw.

Now what to do about it?.. the only GOOD OUTCOME is for her to do some self-discovery and make a move forward BECAUSE she decided to do something for her and her marriage. She needs to look at her life and DECIDE how she can make it better.

Believe it or not your wife is unhappy like you. She just doesn't quite know how to go about fixing it.

It should be easier than getting me to like celery, as at ONE TIME she did enjoy sex with you.

At the time she decides to do something different you can help by matching her positive effort.

You will be able to tell in how she behaves day to day once she makes a decision to do something different it will be clear to you hopefully.

The biggest thing in order to get where you want to go is dealing with RESENTMENT on both sides.

Not sex... you need to work the BIG PICTURE to get the sex you want to share with her. Once you both deal with resentment sex will come easy.


----------



## john117

Why would one do self discovery if they perceive themselves to be healthy? What good could come of it?

Even working on resentment won't do you any good - who wants to deal with old wounds just to get .... Drum Roll ..... More sex?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> Ok here's the deal....
> 
> The reason your wife does not explain is SHE DOESN'T KNOW THE ANSWER.
> 
> Its like asking me why I don't like celery... well I do sometimes in stuffing but not raw? I guess its the taste? Can I learn to live without celery in my diet sure. Could I learn to love celery... hard to envision that.
> 
> She either feels sexually attracted to you and wants sex with you or doesn't and she doesn't know specifically why. All she knows is she PREFERS not to have sex with YOU as evidenced by her actions.
> 
> So asking her to TELL YOU and explain HOW TO CORRECT IT cannot happen. In the same way I cannot tell anyone how to make myself like and enjoy celery raw.
> 
> Now what to do about it?.. the only GOOD OUTCOME is for her to do some self-discovery and make a move forward BECAUSE she decided to do something for her and her marriage. She needs to look at her life and DECIDE how she can make it better.
> 
> Believe it or not your wife is unhappy like you. She just doesn't quite know how to go about fixing it.
> 
> It should be easier than getting me to like celery, as at ONE TIME she did enjoy sex with you.
> 
> At that time you can help by matching her positive effort.
> 
> You will be able to tell in how she behaves day to day once she makes a decision to do something different it will be clear to you hopefully.
> 
> The biggest thing in order to get where you want to go is dealing with RESENTMENT on both sides.
> 
> Not sex... you need to work the BIG PICTURE to get the sex you want to share with her.


Totally makes sense.

More proof that my work is not done. I just wish she could find a way to address her feelings and act accordingly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Why would one do self discovery if they perceive themselves to be healthy? What good could come of it?
> 
> Even working on resentment won't do you any good - who wants to deal with old wounds just to get .... Drum Roll ..... More sex?


I think your right. That's the crux of the issue. She may sincerely believe there's no problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> Totally makes sense.
> 
> More proof that my work is not done. I just wish she could find a way to address her feelings and act accordingly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As they say it will happen when it happens and not a second sooner.

I guess i take some comfort in knowing I'm not alone and that my wife is struggling also. I can see the effect, she herself puts her stuff off, she leaves the stove on, iron on, she gets sick more...the same type of mistakes I have done before having no sex on the mind.

I was watching her from afar dancing the other night with friends , very subdued not typical of her style.

It is not NORMAL and both are trying to find a way forward at different points in time. I am simply waiting for her to make a significant move forward..I'm done making moves.

The goal is either resolution or calling it quits. I'm ok with or without her although I prefer us to solve this together somehow because I did marry her and that is what marriage is about.

I will always love my wife the same, just dislike her more as the sexlessness continues.

It may be passive aggressive on my part..but I am not a saint and gave her a nice long 4yr window of me trying.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

BB, seriously, when you start reading T2's posts and saying 'that totally makes sense' you're already finished. T2 has been sexless for 4 years and will remain so for the foreseeable future. He consistently ignores advice that can work in favor of his own ineffective plan. I understand it can be appealing to not confront and not change anything and talk tough with no action. Actually doing something is hard and takes courage.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Totally makes sense.
> 
> More proof that my work is not done. I just wish she could find a way to address her feelings and act accordingly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your focus on your work is your biggest problem. You refuse to hold her accountable and make her unhappy. She needs to do some work. You let her get away with not doing it because you don't want her to be sad. She won't change until you quit babying her.


----------



## Openminded

BostonBruins32 said:


> exactly. so before the outliers beat me up for my pessimism, please remember it is with good reason. I'm totally cool with mismatched libidos for XYZ reasons, but those reasons need to be communicated. If you do not want to communicate with your spouse, especially regarding something that involves emotional connection, then you do NOT have a marriage.


The problem is, for them, everything's just fine and they feel it doesn't need to be changed. They hope their HD spouse will just forget about sex. And some HD spouses, unfortunately, allow themselves to be put in that situation -- sexless as long as they stay married to that person. Shaking my head at the ridiculousness of that.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

WorkingOnMe said:


> BB, seriously, when you start reading T2's posts and saying 'that totally makes sense' you're already finished. T2 has been sexless for 4 years and will remain so for the foreseeable future. He consistently ignores advice that can work in favor of his own ineffective plan. I understand it can be appealing to not confront and not change anything and talk tough with no action. Actually doing something is hard and takes courage.


I will concede your point...however I am fine with my current path

I told my wife when I was taking to her years ago..I don't want sex with you if you don't want it with me.

So so far I have to live with that statement.

My goal is to have sex with my wife when she wants it with me.

Not when she is coerced into it..I could have had that in fact she offered to "spread her legs for me " anytime and I told her no and I'll wait until she wants it.

Its fairly easy to coerce someone into doing something they don't want to...I wanted more and am willing to sacrifice my sex life to get what I want eventually and when she decides she wants sex with me.


----------



## jld

Trying2figureitout said:


> I will concede your point...however I am fine with my current path
> 
> I told my wife when I was taking to her years ago..I don't want sex with you if you don't want it with me.
> 
> So so far I have to live with that statement.
> 
> My goal is to have sex with my wife when she wants it with me.
> 
> Not when she is coerced into it..I could have had that in fact she offered to "spread her legs for me " anytime and I told her no and I'll wait until she wants it.
> 
> Its fairly easy to coerce someone into doing something they don't want to...I wanted more and am willing to sacrifice my sex life to get what I want eventually and when she decides she wants sex with me.


Why so picky? Why not just accepting what she is offering and building on that?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

jld said:


> Why so picky? Why not just accepting what she is offering and building on that?


Because I do things my way and she said it out of frustration...sex is just one thing. I want it all.

Before...NOW...after

Its sort of the Ghandi approach


----------



## jld

Trying2figureitout said:


> Because I do things my way...sex is just one thing


But is it working?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

jld said:


> But is it working?


In ways yes, in actual sex no. 
But like I say it will resolve when it resolves. I still feel it will resolve in time and sooner rather than later. My wife is not deaf or dumb.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I agree with above posters,
The problem for boston and most others in this situation is that he is afraid of putting his foot down.

As long as that remains true -exactly why would she need to change her attitude? 

Working on yourself with the goal of being more sexually attractive is a good goal in itself but to hope that it actually causes your spouse to suddenly realize how much they want to f**k you is unrealistic.


----------



## jld

Trying2figureitout said:


> In ways yes, in actual sex no.
> But like I say it will resolve when it resolves. I still feel it will resolve in time and sooner rather than later.


So just passivity for the foreseeable future?


----------



## jld

Trying2figureitout said:


> Because I do things my way and she said it out of frustration...sex is just one thing. I want it all.
> 
> Before...NOW...after
> 
> Its sort of the Ghandi approach


I think you should take what you can get, and build on it. I think sexlessness, unless by mutual consent, is unhealthy.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

jld said:


> I think you should take what you can get, and build on it. I think sexlessness, unless by mutual consent, is unhealthy.


Well that may be...but I choose my own path that I believe will be most effective. I believe one day she will do something on her own for herself and her marriage..then it will stick.

She has all the info including several letters from before. She sees what her life is and is making out of character mistakes so I believe its only a matter of time. The less I communicate the better this allows her to process her own thoughts on her schedule.
I warned her she should worry once I stopped talking.... here we are.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

jld said:


> So just passivity for the foreseeable future?


The mode I am in is permanent until she decides she wants to try something different.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> Because I do things my way and she said it out of frustration...sex is just one thing. I want it all.
> 
> Before...NOW...after
> 
> Its sort of the Ghandi approach



Keep in mind that the efficacy of Ghandi's actions are highly debatable. How did Comrade Such and Such put it? Real Power Comes Out Of...

What you have is more Mexican Standoff than Ghandi pacifism.


----------



## naiveonedave

TT - that can't be healthy for longer than months. Most (all?) men would start to withdraw in a serious way at months without PIV. I couldn't do it. I believe it is untennable, your resentment will be huge.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

naiveonedave said:


> TT - that can't be healthy for longer than months. Most (all?) men would start to withdraw in a serious way at months without PIV. I couldn't do it. I believe it is untennable, your resentment will be huge.


No it won't if he puts himself in the right mindset its been at least 2.5 years since I had PIV and while I house some resentment its not huge by any means. I am mostly fine and my mistakes while still there have lessened.


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> Working on yourself with the goal of being more sexually attractive is a good goal in itself but to hope that it actually causes your spouse to suddenly realize how much they want to f**k you is unrealistic.



That's a discovery for the ages - or what I've been saying all along.


----------



## jld

Trying2figureitout said:


> The mode I am in is permanent until she decides she wants to try something different.


Well, yes, if you have stopped talking, bad things are about to happen.

My kids say it is when Mom is quiet that you know things are bad.

Well, you know your situation best, but I don't think you are exercising leadership. Not talking is passive aggressive.

How about telling her what your side of a win/win scenario would be and asking her hers? And then making it clear that it is going to be win/win or no deal. 

And then start taking concrete steps to see what no deal is going to actually involve.

Good grief. People should not have to live in sexless marriages. We have the divorce option in our country.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> But is it working?


No. He tries to pretend that some aspects are, but no, his end goal is not in sight. In fact, he moved the goalpost when it was apparent that he wasn't gonna get any. And now, he pretends he is perfectly fine with it as it is... waiting. But, no, it isn't.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Well, yes, if you have stopped talking, bad things are about to happen.
> 
> My kids say it is when Mom is quiet that you know things are bad.
> 
> Well, you know your situation best, but I don't think you are exercising leadership. Not talking is passive aggressive.
> 
> How about telling her what your side of a win/win scenario would be and asking her hers? And then making it clear that it is going to be win/win or no deal.
> 
> And then start taking concrete steps to see what no deal is going to actually involve.
> 
> Good grief. People should not have to live in sexless marriages. We have the divorce option in our country.



Agee .. Just remember divorce is literally the final straw. It's far from an easy option when kids and feelings are involved. Even if it is easy legally to do in this country, yes I know not easily but you know what i mean
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I would like to know what man can live without PIV. I hope someone responds to my thread.

Are you in denial, T2?


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> I would like to know what man can live without PIV. I hope someone responds to my thread.
> 
> Are you in denial, T2?


A gay guy could, no?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> A gay guy could, no?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you're not gay. Right?


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Agee .. Just remember divorce is literally the final straw. It's far from an easy option when kids and feelings are involved. Even if it is easy legally to do in this country, yes I know not easily but you know what i mean
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But somebody has to break out. Do you really want to live sexless? Is that even healthy, except by truly mutual consent?


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
I respect the viewpoint you describe below. 

The sad thing is that you don't seem to understand desire. 

We all fear loss. Loss of love, raw desire and companionship. I feel fear the same as you do. 

The thing is, instead of facing your fears you shrink from them. The results are:
- Your wife continues an inappropriate relationship
- She avoids counseling 

You and I, we feel the same fear. The difference between us is my willingness to fight for love, intimacy and commitment even when that takes us to the precipice. 





Trying2figureitout said:


> I will concede your point...however I am fine with my current path
> 
> I told my wife when I was taking to her years ago..I don't want sex with you if you don't want it with me.
> 
> So so far I have to live with that statement.
> 
> My goal is to have sex with my wife when she wants it with me.
> 
> Not when she is coerced into it..I could have had that in fact she offered to "spread her legs for me " anytime and I told her no and I'll wait until she wants it.
> 
> Its fairly easy to coerce someone into doing something they don't want to...I wanted more and am willing to sacrifice my sex life to get what I want eventually and when she decides she wants sex with me.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Agee .. Just remember divorce is literally the final straw. It's far from an easy option when kids and feelings are involved. Even if it is easy legally to do in this country, yes I know not easily but you know what i mean
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The problem I see is that you go from zero to divorce in the way of action. Perhaps that will work, but I would think that taking some intermediate level of action in between would be preferable.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> But you're not gay. Right?



Nope. Hence part of why once a month is/has not been ok to me.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> The problem I see is that you go from zero to divorce in the way of action. Perhaps that will work, but I would think that taking some intermediate level of action in between would be preferable.


totally. I was more addressing JLD's point about divorce being a viable action in our country. If you're unhappy, you can divorce and still carry on. The problem is there is a lot at stake. And to your point, you should try plan B, C, D, etc before you divorce. Its up to each person how many plans they try before the divorce. Some try plan B, then all it quits. Some make it to a plan Q before they call it quits, dragging it out over years and years. everyone's spot is different.


----------



## Openminded

Everyone's spot is different, that's true. But most feel, after it's over, they should have gotten out much sooner than they did. Because for sure you can't get that time back.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> totally. I was more addressing JLD's point about divorce being a viable action in our country. If you're unhappy, you can divorce and still carry on. The problem is there is a lot at stake. And to your point, you should try plan B, C, D, etc before you divorce. Its up to each person how many plans they try before the divorce. Some try plan B, then all it quits. Some make it to a plan Q before they call it quits, dragging it out over years and years. everyone's spot is different.


I guess I just think if you have tried all kinds of things, including transparently talking with her, earnestly talking with her, filing for at least a separation could be the shock that gets her in touch with reality.

I guess I would just like to see a win/win here, or no deal.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> I guess I just think if you have tried all kinds of things, including transparently talking with her, earnestly talking with her, filing for at least a separation could be the shock that gets her in touch with reality.
> 
> I guess I would just like to see a win/win here, or no deal.


totally.. ive had the talk that the way we are living is not acceptable to me and that I cant do this forever, she cried. i am done talking to her about this issue (for now anyhow). I have been taking up hobbies without discussing with her and have not been seeking her advice for clothes or shoes or house items etc. Previously, I would have asked what she liked or sought her advice on which brown shoes I should buy. I do not do this anymore. I had today off, she wanted me to stop by and visit her for lunch. Sorry toots, I already had a full agenda (no full agenda, just went to sporting goods store and butcher shop). Sure it sounds like a small change, but shes noticing.

I am not accepting to live in a sexless/intimacy-less marriage. I am changing my approach and hardening up (see my valentines day halt, bold for me anyhow). So maybe I'm not in 6th gear getting massages like MEM(no sarcasm here, hes just at different level), but I'm also not playing dead. 

So my point, JLD, is that its not acceptable and I'm actively addressing it. I'm just at a different speed, as much of this is a big change in behavior for me.


----------



## jld

Okay, BB. It is your life, and you control the pace. 

But you do understand that we all are saying things because we care about you, right? We want to see something better for you than what you have right now.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Okay, BB. It is your life, and you control the pace.
> 
> But you do understand that we all are saying things because we care about you, right? We want to see something better for you than what you have right now.


right, but if you read what i'm doing, then you'd see that I'm taking these actions largely in part because of the advice from some folks on here (and mmsl). Basically I'm on board with these things and actively pursueing them. I'm in.

I'm just A. still frustrated internally that this appears to be a one man change show and B. not at full blown MMSL level yet in my behavior.

I'm also not a bump on a log, thanks to some of the input here.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> I have been taking up hobbies without discussing with her and have not been seeking her advice for clothes or shoes or house items etc. Previously, I would have asked what she liked or sought her advice on which brown shoes I should buy. I do not do this anymore.


She is probably grateful for at least this list. I know I would have been . . . over dependence on your wife's opinion can be very un-sexy to some women.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm also not a bump on a log, thanks to some of the input here.


Yeah, we don't really let anybody be a bump on a log here.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> She is probably grateful for at least this list. I know I would have been . . . over dependence on your wife's opinion can be very un-sexy to some women.


probably grateful.. but last time we went to the shoe store, instead of splitting up (like usual) she tailed me around while I was seeking shoes. she never did that. she was pointing out suggestions etc etc. same with when I was looking at boxers at TJ maxx. i definately never need advice here, but she was actively trying to find some for me.

its like i move opposite way, she follows. i move towards her, she moves opposite.

Yes this is basic stuff, but I'm living it now.


----------



## angelpixie

Lyris said:


> I think that's definitely true. I read a study a while ago which showed women were more likely to get aroused by a new partner, men by a familiar one.
> 
> That's not to say it's unavoidable, but I think it's a reality and we may as well deal with it.


I just read about this study, too, and also read one a long time ago, stating that overall, women are far less likely to initiate sex with a partner, whether they 'like' having sex or not, and regardless of how long they've been together. The researchers didn't have a definitive cause for this, but most of their guesses involved cultural conditioning ('nice' or 'good' girls don't initiate sex) that didn't dissolve after marriage, and also many, many women have their sexuality tied into their self-image. If they don't feel good about themselves, they don't feel good enough to put themselves out there sexually and are afraid of rejection. Having kids, getting bogged down by work, household issues, etc., definitely changes the way a woman feels about herself vs. before all of that happened in her life.

Conversely, in a new relationship, there is passion and desire. A woman knows that the new partner is 'into' her. He is probably actively wooing her, and telling her that he finds her sexy and physically attractive. She feels better about herself, and that ups her sex drive. She could physically look exactly the same as in the previous situation, but the dynamic between her and the new partner is totally different.

In the familiar relationship, many times it seems that the focus is on getting past what's 'wrong' with our particular partners. In the new relationship, we're so focused on what's 'right' with our new partner, and it makes it easier to be attracted and aroused by him/her.

I just read this book last week and it was so fascinating that I unknowingly stayed up til 3 a.m. til I finished it. 

What Do Women Want?: Adventures in the Science of Female Desire: Daniel Bergner: 9780061906084: Amazon.com: Books

The one thing I really take issue with is the author's use of the phrase "The cure for monogamy." That, IMO, was purely sensationalism. If you read what he's describing, the particular women in focus were not having trouble with monogamy. They loved their partners. It's our culture's decision of what constitutes healthy female sexuality, and how to solve 'problems' that need to be cured. 

Otherwise, I highly recommend it -- a thought-provoking read.


----------



## Lyris

WorkingOnMe said:


> Lyris your Lyrking recording is gone!!!


Oh no! I'll have to make angel do a new one


----------



## MEM2020

BB,
Just so there's no confusion on this point. 

My W has always honored her vow to love me as a Wife loves a husband. Just as I have honored my vows - to serve (provide) and protect. 

From the start I defined a clear boundary with regard to what I expected her marital vow 'to love' to mean. 

And she has challenged that boundary a few times in our 24 years together. Each time a direct, frontal challenge. Not a Bullshlt stream of dishonest avoidance tactics. 

And yes, when faced with such a frontal challenge I enforced my boundary by offering to outsource that part of our marriage. 

I call that 'fighting for our marriage'. The results speak for themselves. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> totally.. ive had the talk that the way we are living is not acceptable to me and that I cant do this forever, she cried. i am done talking to her about this issue (for now anyhow). I have been taking up hobbies without discussing with her and have not been seeking her advice for clothes or shoes or house items etc. Previously, I would have asked what she liked or sought her advice on which brown shoes I should buy. I do not do this anymore. I had today off, she wanted me to stop by and visit her for lunch. Sorry toots, I already had a full agenda (no full agenda, just went to sporting goods store and butcher shop). Sure it sounds like a small change, but shes noticing.
> 
> I am not accepting to live in a sexless/intimacy-less marriage. I am changing my approach and hardening up (see my valentines day halt, bold for me anyhow). So maybe I'm not in 6th gear getting massages like MEM(no sarcasm here, hes just at different level), but I'm also not playing dead.
> 
> So my point, JLD, is that its not acceptable and I'm actively addressing it. I'm just at a different speed, as much of this is a big change in behavior for me.


----------



## jld

Yeah, but do you really feel good about that, MEM? Isn't that kind of like her offering to steal from someone if you can't bring in enough money?


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> And yes, when faced with such a frontal challenge I enforced my boundary by offering to outsource that part of our marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> I call that 'fighting for our marriage'. The results speak for themselves.



My wife's cousin was manipulated into outsourcing that part of the marriage, was caught by LD wife's PI and was taken to the cleaners during the divorce (wife had squirreled away an ample supply of cash during her LD years and could afford top notch legal help). 

When it was all said and done he lost his home (she kept it), their son, his mid six figure job, had to move away from his parents, and also suffered some health problems. He ended up marrying a therapist so there's some goodness out of it.

Massage parlors are legal - except in cases where they aren't - and they're not substitute for the real thing unless, ehem, there's extra cash involved. There's also the explicit threat issue so... 

I'm glad it all worked out for you. Did you ever figure out what caused Mrs. MEM's holdouts?


----------



## MEM2020

John,
She fell in love with a man at work. Being a devout catholic she had no grounds for a divorce. So the loophole she attempted to use was this. She couldn't divorce me, but she surely could get me to divorce her if she tried hard enough. 

So this sudden - out of the blue statement - that she wouldn't sleep with me anymore, was an attempt to get me to file. I just didn't know it at the time. 

------
We bought a small business as an investment and the manager who ran it got cancer. My W stepped in to run it. Shortly after I found a good guy and we jointly decided to hire him. He was:
- super good at building/fixing stuff (electrical, plumbing, carpentry, tile, concrete, etc.)
- rugged good looks (bigger, stronger and overall hotter than me physically)
- very moody, but quite fun when he was in a good mood

In the two years prior to us hiring the OM, our sex life became weak. That is on me, I changed, she didn't. Once a week and very vanilla. I had let myself go physically and was behaving in a pretty passive manner. 

We hired him. The chemistry between my W and the OM was immediate and strong. His wife of 20 years had cheated on him and broke his heart, his spirit and in doing so, she also crushed his ability to run their small business. That was why he moved to our metro area. We hired him just as he moved to our area, so I know she had no prior knowledge of him. 

Great guy - I mean that. I like and respect him. And he had moved to our city with his gf and they were living together. And he seemed to love his GF despite the fact that she treated him badly. 

Their Chemistry was strong but I figured:
- she is religious and fears hell (not joking about that)
- lots of guys have hit on her over the years, to no effect
- the two guys she did feel attraction for, she told me about and I shrugged because they were contractors who would be gone in a few weeks, and they were
- he is a, decent guy who had 'this', done to him by his W. 

So I felt safe. Still, when he touched her in a playful way in my presence a little alarm fired. The second time he did it the alarm got louder. Each time he did this he looked at me. The first time I laughed and smiled - bad move. The second time I realized that some primal mating circuitry that had kicked in between them.

She wasn't telling him to stop. And we know what that means. And he was looking at me to see if I was going to respond. 

So the third time he did it, which happened the next day I punched him in the arm. And we looked at each other for a moment. She looked at both of us. That night I told her I did not want him 'touching', her. She agreed and said she would reinforce the message if he did it again. 

This next part was not ok. I knew that then and know it now. 

She fell in love with him and brought it home to me. It was the passion of our early years combined with 20 years knowledge of my body. It was like a drug except I didn't develop a 'tolerance'. And after a few months I realized at some level that in her head she wasn't really doing it to me. Not the cartoon case of her saying his name. I just knew. 

And this is when I told myself the big lie which was, like the best lies, partly true:
- she is doing this to show her commitment to me, to us
- she cannot be doing this for both of us - so she isn't having a PA with him 

The second part was true. The first part was completely false. The ugly truth was that just being in his presence was putting her into heat and she was shedding that crazy heat in our bed almost every night. 

About 6 months later she volunteered to me that she had gone to see her priest because she was 'worried about her marriage due to her feelings for another man'. 

I had her so high up on a moral pedestal that I just told her I trusted her. 

And the bill for all this: three times in the following two years she escalated and took things to the edge. Two of those times I got the whole 'don't want to have sex with you anymore'. Both times she held out for less than 2 days and then seemingly went back to normal, loving if slightly crazy wife. 

I honestly didn't connect the dots on those. Then we sold the business and 6 months later she confessed that the threats to D were caused by the fog. 

Her confession was solely inspired by guilt. I said something that triggered her guilt and she confessed. I asked all the usual questions. She and he stopped communication after we sold the biz. She doesn't still love him. She volunteered that neither of them was willing to make the first move physically and because of that nothing happened physically. And she admitted (talk about brutally honest) that if he had initiated, she wouldn't have stopped him. 





john117 said:


> My wife's cousin was manipulated into outsourcing that part of the marriage, was caught by LD wife's PI and was taken to the cleaners during the divorce (wife had squirreled away an ample supply of cash during her LD years and could afford top notch legal help).
> 
> When it was all said and done he lost his home (she kept it), their son, his mid six figure job, had to move away from his parents, and also suffered some health problems. He ended up marrying a therapist so there's some goodness out of it.
> 
> Massage parlors are legal - except in cases where they aren't - and they're not substitute for the real thing unless, ehem, there's extra cash involved. There's also the explicit threat issue so...
> 
> I'm glad it all worked out for you. Did you ever figure out what caused Mrs. MEM's holdouts?


----------



## jld

So sorry, MEM. I am sure that still hurts like crazy.

And thanks for your transparency.


----------



## john117

A very interesting story and worthwhile outcome. I am not speaking for any of the others in similar situation but if Dr. Mrs. LD brought home one of her "children" (junior analysts) visiting from India I would be elated. (Her manager calls them her "children" :lol: )

It's like when my daughters would get sick at their preschool and would have to do the strep throat test. I would be praying for a positive test so at least we'd know what we are dealing here.


----------



## Lyris

But MEM, if her reason for refusing sex was to get you to divorce her, why didn't she just agree to your massage parlour outsourcing and then divorce you for adultery?


----------



## john117

Lyris said:


> But MEM, if her reason for refusing sex was to get you to divorce her, why didn't she just agree to your massage parlour outsourcing and then divorce you for adultery?



I'm guessing because 'legal' parlors where no 'happy endings' take place are just that, legal business establishments. It's like trying to prove adultery for visiting Hooters.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> It's like trying to prove adultery for visiting Hooters.


:rofl:


----------



## Trying2figureitout

jld said:


> I would like to know what man can live without PIV. I hope someone responds to my thread.
> 
> Are you in denial, T2?


I can live without most anything...I quit drinking, I quit using drugs a long time ago(Pot) and I quit gambling. 

Sex is the hardest because I didn't want to quit and I know its beneficial for you in many obvious ways, and I only want sex with my wife. Other than that sure I masturbate. I'm certainly not gay.

I look at it this way sex is like anything else and being in a situation where its unlikely at best I have to deal with that reality.

At some point I will decide enough is enough. For now I still believe one day we will resolve our issue, the only difference is she will now need to make that move not me.


----------



## jld

I guess I would just feel frustrated with that approach, T2. But I am pretty pro-active, so we may just operate differently.


----------



## Racer

BostonBruins32 said:


> ........
> I have been taking up hobbies without discussing with her and have not been seeking her advice for clothes or shoes or house items etc. Previously, I would have asked what she liked or sought her advice on which brown shoes I should buy. I do not do this anymore. I had today off, she wanted me to stop by and visit her for lunch. Sorry toots, I already had a full agenda (no full agenda, just went to sporting goods store and butcher shop). Sure it sounds like a small change, but shes noticing.
> ..


One area to watch out for: Passive/aggressive. That’s a turn-off and confusing because of the mixed messages. So the lunch thing. Did you choose to ‘not meet’ as some sort of punishment/ramification for the sexless? I know at first I did that sort of stuff while you get a hang of it. 

How to approach it. I’d ask myself whether or not I wanted to meet her for lunch. Simple yes or no that was unrelated to whether or not she deserved my company. If I did feel like lunch with her, I went with the best intentions like “I want to have lunch with my wife.” Nothing more.. I wasn’t trying to earn her approval or not. I wasn’t disappointed if she didn’t ooh and ahh at this gesture. I simply tried to enjoy a nice lunch without dragging my baggage into the mix or expecting anything in return. It’s just lunch and conversation.

Same when I wanted to do stuff. “I feel like getting a beer. Do you want to come?” the thought behind it was simple.. I want a beer and I didn’t want to drink alone. Again, nothing to do with earning or rewarding anything. If she said no, while my preference was with her, I’m fine without too. 

Don’t overthink or approach it like some chessboard play. It’s really all those ‘small change’ things that make the difference. So if you are letting your butt hurts influence whether or not to include her or not (when you really do want her involvement), you are screwing up and sending out the wrong messages. Just dump out there who you are rather than trying to change or manipulate what she see’s thinking she’ll notice the subtle difference. I’ll guarantee all she saw was that you didn’t want to have lunch with her. What she thinks about it you can’t control. She might think you were busy or that you are angry with her. You don’t know, so don’t let her guess. Just be consistantly true to yourself so you are an easy read instead of some wacko who thinks “I’ll show her and not go to lunch!” equates in her head to “I better take care of my man or he’ll (gasp) not go to lunch with me on his days off..” 

So if you did this. One of the first things you need to learn is to own your brand of insanity. Just tell her you did this, why, and that you are working on it. A wife who is forced to guess at the crazy motivations behind why we do stuff like this isn’t going to think highly of us. But if you answer that question for her directly, she just might respect this newer you.


----------



## Lyris

john117 said:


> I'm guessing because 'legal' parlors where no 'happy endings' take place are just that, legal business establishments. It's like trying to prove adultery for visiting Hooters.


She wouldn't need to prove adultery to get a divorce. She would only need it to justify divorce to her own Catholic conscience. Unless she wanted a full annulment I suppose.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
Not at all. The morning she confessed I admit to being intensely conflicted. 

Imagine I put you in daily proximity with someone and you fall in love with them. You don't talk about your H, or your marriage. You don't share intimacies. You just fall in love. And you are around that person almost daily (sometimes alone with them), for 3 years. And somehow even though they like you, the two of you manage not to do anything sexual. 

I was super fvcking grateful that neither of them made it physical. And I felt ashamed for not intervening in a helpful way. And yes I was angry that she jerked me around, and I was very harsh on that point. 

I can't say for sure what I would do in that type situation. I never want to find out.



jld said:


> So sorry, MEM. I am sure that still hurts like crazy.
> 
> And thanks for your transparency.


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris,
I think I messed up her little fantasy which sort of looked like this:
- She is off having a nonstop fvck fest with the OM in a land filled with rainbows and little red balloons and purple cotton candy clouds
- While I am home taking care of the kids, patiently and celibately pining for her

Instead the Doppler radar was forecasting: Imminent and intimate contact between some other woman and HER H. This triggered an intense tornado of jealousy that ripped through the fantasy.

She had moments where she was more in love with him, but she never stopped loving me. 




Lyris said:


> But MEM, if her reason for refusing sex was to get you to divorce her, why didn't she just agree to your massage parlour outsourcing and then divorce you for adultery?


----------



## MEM2020

But I promised her Dad I would take good care of her. 

So if she really didn't want to be with me any more, I told her that I would give her an 'uncontested' divorce and would say whatever was needed (including things that were patently untrue) in order for her to obtain an annulment. 

That way she could remarry if she wanted to. If she didn't want to be with me, I would do whatever possible to make it so she didn't end up alone. 




Lyris said:


> She wouldn't need to prove adultery to get a divorce. She would only need it to justify divorce to her own Catholic conscience. Unless she wanted a full annulment I suppose.


----------



## Lyris

Well that's noble of you I suppose. For me, the words "made your bed" would come to mind. 

But I don't like being taken care of, unless I feel I'm giving equal or more in return. And if I did what your wife did, I would expect my husband to say I guess you weren't worth it after all. He wouldn't be vengeful, but he wouldn't think I deserved any of his concern particularly. 

And I wouldn't accept the help of someone I had hurt so badly.


----------



## jld

Oh, MEM. That sounds like true love to me. I hope everyone on TAM reads this. A lot of people could learn from your story.

And first I would like to thank you again for your transparency. It has to be humbling to share these things. So many people try to hide and protect their pride, but we learn the most from people who just let down their walls and show us what is inside.

I think people have a hard time looking beyond words and actions into the heart. You must know your wife's heart. I don't think you were just keeping a promise to her dad (which is incredibly sweet, btw ). I think you love her despite herself, and you certainly feel responsible for her. I have always thought you had a good heart, MEM, a kind heart, a heart of gentleness, and what you shared with us certainly confirms that.

I guess my concern for you, MEM, is do you love yourself as much as you love your wife?

Going to post this and will continue.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Oh, MEM. That sounds like true love to me. I hope everyone on TAM reads this. A lot of people could learn from your story.
> 
> And first I would like to thank you again for your transparency. It has to be humbling to share these things. So many people try to hide and protect their pride, but we learn the most from people who just let down their walls and show us what is inside.
> 
> I think people have a hard time looking beyond words and actions into the heart. You must know your wife's heart. I don't think you were just keeping a promise to her dad (which is incredibly sweet, btw ). I think you love her despite herself, and you certainly feel responsible for her. I have always thought you had a good heart, MEM, a kind heart, a heart of gentleness, and what you shared with us certainly confirms that.
> 
> I guess my concern for you, MEM, is do you love yourself as much as you love your wife?
> 
> Going to post this and will continue.



After reading mem's story, it is a gentle reminder to me that I do not love my wife as much as others love their spouse. I think the last time I felt that serious if live was shortly after our daughter was born. I'm not sure it matters how much you live your wife compared to how much others love their wives , but it's interesting to ponder. I'd be lying to you if I told you tgat I don't sometimes fantasize she would just pull the trigger and leave me. Big hurt, then finally move on. 

And save the "stop being a chicken and just leave her yourself".
I get it. I'm still hiurt, confused, and at times a little hopeful it gets better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Marriages are hard to completely explain, aren't they? In my own marriage, dh truly is like a father to me. Even when I practically run to tell him I felt attracted to another man, instead of yelling at me for how bad I've been, he says oh my silly girl, you have such a big imagination, why do you torture yourself so, you are my good girl and I know you would never do anything bad.

That sounds very nice, but sometimes I have wanted to scream, yes, I could do something bad and I am asking you very much to help me, get mad at me, punish me for having these bad thoughts, I should only be thinking of you, dh! Sometimes it almost feels like a burden to have a kind husband who truly believes the best of you.

I am impressed with your wife's self-control, too, and I would attribute at least some of that to her Catholic upbringing. I give the Catholic church as hard of a time as anyone, but some of us learned some pretty good values there. I guess I can see some good in that institution, despite all the bad there, too.

So your wife has a conscience. That is very good. And you feel like she did better than you might have done. That is honest of you, MEM.

But I still think holding her feet to the fire is very healthy.

I have cried over other men, MEM. I am ashamed to say it, but it is true. And I have told my dh, and I get the speech above. In some ways it is good that dh is that way, because it really is the way of Love, believing in people and basically making them take responsibility for their behavior. But some of us are not that mature. 

We need more basic treatment, like for our partner to be transparent about his disappointment (and even if he doesn't feel that disappointed, because of the kind of empathy you feel for your wife, he might still want to point out that what she feels/has done is not healthy and not in her best interest). We need to hear what we have done wrong and what we can do better next time.

I think transparency in holding a spouse's feet to the fire really makes her think, makes her reflect, nudges her conscience. And it is the conscience that you really want to activate. You can't watch your wife all the time. Her conscience does that. It's your best friend.


----------



## Lyris

BostonBruins32 said:


> After reading mem's story, it is a gentle reminder to me that I do not love my wife as much as others love their spouse. I think the last time I felt that serious if live was shortly after our daughter was born. I'm not sure it matters how much you live your wife compared to how much others love their wives , but it's interesting to ponder. I'd be lying to you if I told you tgat I don't sometimes fantasize she would just pull the trigger and leave me. Big hurt, then finally move on.
> 
> And save the "stop being a chicken and just leave her yourself".
> I get it. I'm still hiurt, confused, and at times a little hopeful it gets better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't read too much into wanting her to leave you sometimes, BB. During the worst part of my marriage, which lasted about a year and a half, I felt the same way a few times. I even half wished I'd find out he was cheating on me so I could be a total martyr and everyone would feel sorry for me.

And I have always loved my husband more than I can ever express. He is like air to me, I can't truly imagine life without him. If anything happened to him or our marriage I wouldn't marry again. I wouldn't fall in love again. 

But even so, I had those thoughts sometimes. I don't think they mean that much except you're frustrated and unhappy and can't see a way out.


----------



## jld

You know, BB, I am sure you are doing the best you can. You love your wife, you love your kids, inside you must feel there is a chance for things to change. 

If you want to stick it out, you have to find real peace in just sticking it out. There may always be heartache, but it will be actively taking responsibility for your choice.

There is much in life besides sex, besides even marriage.

Embrace those things you love and consider detaching from your wife. Being kind to her, but letting go of your sexual expectations. Maybe some distance will help her to remember you.

Did you see any of IndiaInk's post in the Touching thread here on SIM? You may want to take a look. She talks about how women are drawn to power, and one indicator of power is a man's seeming indifference to his wife, and his having resolute convictions. That is certainly true of my dh. It may also be called selfishness and stubbornness .

And a little of each of those is okay. It is how we all are, to some extent. What makes it noble is when it is motivated by the desire to do good, to do the right thing even if your wife cannot see that it is the right thing or doesn't want to be bothered to do it.

I could not understand for years why dh was so committed to our children, why we couldn't go out alone, why everything had to include the kids. It is not like he did not give me attention, too, but it was not as much as I wanted, or exactly what I wanted.

But I see how mature and responsible our kids are now, and I have to attribute at least some of that to dh's leadership in making them a priority in our lives. He always expected us to sacrifice for our kids. And he was right.

Anyway, IndiaInk's two points above certainly worked with me. Dh and I have never been sexless. Wouldn't have even occurred to me.

Thanks for sharing your feelings with us, BB. And I am sure you do feel on the hot seat here. Just remember, again, that we do care and are offering our thoughts out of concern. And of course you just need to take what works for you and leave the rest. But what seems crazy now might be just the thing in the future.


----------



## BostonBruins32

thanks for the help. 

as this journey continues, I begin to wonder how much the lack of sex really plays a role in my emotional detatchment (as you said more to life than sex and marraige). This sounds strange but if she rolled over and initiated sex every night this week, I dont think I'd feel any better. She still nitpicks, and gives me **** for really dumb things, all while she knows I've made so many improvements etc. Truthfully the only time I feel better lately is when I'm not around her or when I'm fully engulfed in something else at home (cooking or shoveling or playing with my daughter). I've been having a hard time looking her in the eye for a few weeks now and I don't have much to say other than small talk about our daughter or the weather. 

Its like a total emotional detachment taking place, hence why I said sometimes I feel like I'm mourning the death of something. It makes my stomach turn when she mentions selling our house to buy a new house (a previous dream of ours), having another child (shes certain we'll try this fall), and going away on vacation. The house and child are extended commitments that I am not really interested in making with her, as I feel things are broken. The vacation puts too much pressure on faking a smile or romanticism or putting a bandaid on us. I secretly want her to say "i need some space" again, but for this time more than just 3 days.

Its hard to explain


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> thanks for the help.
> 
> as this journey continues, I begin to wonder how much the lack of sex really plays a role in my emotional detatchment (as you said more to life than sex and marraige). This sounds strange but if she rolled over and initiated sex every night this week, I dont think I'd feel any better. She still nitpicks, and gives me **** for really dumb things, all while she knows I've made so many improvements etc. Truthfully the only time I feel better lately is when I'm not around her or when I'm fully engulfed in something else at home (cooking or shoveling or playing with my daughter). I've been having a hard time looking her in the eye for a few weeks now and I don't have much to say other than small talk about our daughter or the weather.
> 
> Its like a total emotional detachment taking place, hence why I said sometimes I feel like I'm mourning the death of something. It makes my stomach turn when she mentions selling our house to buy a new house (a previous dream of ours), having another child (shes certain we'll try this fall), and going away on vacation. The house and child are extended commitments that I am not really interested in making with her, as I feel things are broken. The vacation puts too much pressure on faking a smile or romanticism or putting a bandaid on us. I secretly want her to say "i need some space" again, but for this time more than just 3 days.
> 
> Its hard to explain


Read up on fitness tests (also called $h!t tests). They are discussed on this forum, as well as in MMSL. Learn to deal with them and you will both feel better (though be aware that on the surface she won't like it at first).

If you give some examples, MEM (who is excellent at describing the dynamics and handling these) will likely have some great advice.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Read up on fitness tests (also called $h!t tests). They are discussed on this forum, as well as in MMSL. Learn to deal with them and you will both feel better (though be aware that on the surface she won't like it at first).
> 
> If you give some examples, MEM (who is excellent at describing the dynamics and handling these) will likely have some great advice.


Totally read up on those. I've received some. I used to bite back too aggressively and in an immature way. Now I calmly tell her it's not acceptable to use that tone with me, and I continue what I'm doing. My follow through is in A. not sulking and B. also not doing something 'extra' for her right after. So essentially if you snap at me, I'm not going to cry about it, but I'm also not going to jump off the couch and go make you a cup of cocoa either.

Probably not 100% mmsl, but still.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> thanks for the help.
> 
> as this journey continues, I begin to wonder how much the lack of sex really plays a role in my emotional detatchment (as you said more to life than sex and marraige). This sounds strange but if she rolled over and initiated sex every night this week, I dont think I'd feel any better. She still nitpicks, and gives me **** for really dumb things, all while she knows I've made so many improvements etc. Truthfully the only time I feel better lately is when I'm not around her or when I'm fully engulfed in something else at home (cooking or shoveling or playing with my daughter). I've been having a hard time looking her in the eye for a few weeks now and I don't have much to say other than small talk about our daughter or the weather.
> 
> Its like a total emotional detachment taking place, hence why I said sometimes I feel like I'm mourning the death of something. It makes my stomach turn when she mentions selling our house to buy a new house (a previous dream of ours), having another child (shes certain we'll try this fall), and going away on vacation. The house and child are extended commitments that I am not really interested in making with her, as I feel things are broken. The vacation puts too much pressure on faking a smile or romanticism or putting a bandaid on us. I secretly want her to say "i need some space" again, but for this time more than just 3 days.
> 
> Its hard to explain


BB...

I think you need to compartmentalize your issue and re-evaluate. It is just sex and what you are struggling with as all of us are is a sense of fairness after all you are married and she should like sex just as much as you and want you.

I am now at peace with my decision to stay and see where life takes me for now. AS long as you are there there is a chance sex returns when your spouse decides she wants more out of life.

I also made my wife's Father a promise to take care of her and I love her Dad like my own father...so that does factor in to my decision.

I know your inner struggles all to well and what got me to this point was doing my best for a period of time (4yrs) that I felt was well within the parameters of any healing process necessary. A time of compassion ,understanding and patience.

Now I am beyond that and have no regrets. So the moral of the story is do your best and then live with whatever decision you make after your best fails. You only have to satisfy your own mind that is where the real battle is.

I do think its nearly impossible to do your best forever (for your spouse) when sex is rare...at some point you simply stop banging your head against the wall and make a decision YOU can live with and be happy with. Whatever your spouse gets is inconsequential at that point. You need to move on and get your mind back so you can enjoy life fully again.

Its not perfect but every person has to weigh staying vs outsourcing/leaving
I only want sex with my own wife so my decision for now is easy.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> *Imagine I put you in daily proximity with someone and you fall in love with them. You don't talk about your H, or your marriage. You don't share intimacies. You just fall in love. And you are around that person almost daily (sometimes alone with them), for 3 years. And somehow even though they like you, the two of you manage not to do anything sexual.
> 
> I was super fvcking grateful that neither of them made it physical. And I felt ashamed for not intervening in a helpful way. And yes I was angry that she jerked me around, and I was very harsh on that point. *


I read your story here MEM... so sorry to hear all of this play down....my heart was sinking reading HOW that must have felt for you....realizing WHY she was so passionate in bed... 

That is taking Transparency to it's limits...if only it was started at the seed stage...it would have destroyed the "secret" ...it just wouldn't have built to what it did... 

Just goes to show how an intense attraction can take *anyone* down...how we need to be accountable to our spouses... keep the fires burning at home...and boundaries, so very important....you said you were being too passive...the fact it didn't go physical ..... a blessing... 

How you spoke GOOD of this Man... taking yourself out of the equation... I don't think many could DO THIS... 



> *She had moments where she was more in love with him, but she never stopped loving me*.


Things happen in marriages...it's not always pretty.....sounds she still loves you... this too can be overcome...if its what you both want and fight for.


----------



## MEM2020

*Hyper critical and mean spirited*

Boston,
This is difficult stuff. 

What do you say when your W talks about:
- Another baby (FYI: your marriage will live or die based on how you handle this single issue)
- A nicer home
- Your next vacation 

Are you completely silent or are you giving her false reassurance?







QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7190873]After reading mem's story, it is a gentle reminder to me that I do not love my wife as much as others love their spouse. I think the last time I felt that serious if live was shortly after our daughter was born. I'm not sure it matters how much you live your wife compared to how much others love their wives , but it's interesting to ponder. I'd be lying to you if I told you tgat I don't sometimes fantasize she would just pull the trigger and leave me. Big hurt, then finally move on. 

And save the "stop being a chicken and just leave her yourself".
I get it. I'm still hiurt, confused, and at times a little hopeful it gets better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> This is difficult stuff.
> 
> What do you say when your W talks about:
> - Another baby (FYI: your marriage will live or die based on how you handle this single issue)
> - A nicer home
> - Your next vacation
> 
> Are you completely silent or are you giving her false reassurance?
> 
> I remain silent . Not trying to play a game , I just have nothing to add. If she shows me a house online, I might look and move on or I blandly say cool.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7190873]After reading mem's story, it is a gentle reminder to me that I do not love my wife as much as others love their spouse. I think the last time I felt that serious if live was shortly after our daughter was born. I'm not sure it matters how much you live your wife compared to how much others love their wives , but it's interesting to ponder. I'd be lying to you if I told you tgat I don't sometimes fantasize she would just pull the trigger and leave me. Big hurt, then finally move on.
> 
> And save the "stop being a chicken and just leave her yourself".
> I get it. I'm still hiurt, confused, and at times a little hopeful it gets better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

If there's a baby already another one won't make a difference other than a year or two more of the same. In for a penny, etc. It's not a good idea to have another child obviously in this state of mind.

The house could be a big advantage if you're interested in parting ways. As in, decide to build a house, so sell current house first, move to apartment... Then drop the MOAB. 

Vacation - preferably without the kid - would also be an opportunity for both of you to see each other on neutral ground. Go on a cruise where you're both 'captive audience' and see what comes of it. I pretty much realized my marriage was toast when we were in probably the most beautiful part of the world for my liking (inner passage Alaska) and went for some drinks with the good Dr. She did not say a single expletive deleted word in 2 hours. Just stared into the night. If you're lucky (or unlucky) she may do the same to you in which case you have your marching papers all prepared and signed.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Mem, I remain silent . Not trying to prove a point or play game, I just literally have nothing to say. I haven't pieced my thoughts together in a way that would allow me to honestly respond and not have it meaningful
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> If there's a baby already another one won't make a difference other than a year or two more of the same. In for a penny, etc. It's not a good idea to have another child obviously in this state of mind.
> 
> The house could be a big advantage if you're interested in parting ways. As in, decide to build a house, so sell current house first, move to apartment... Then drop the MOAB.
> 
> Vacation - preferably without the kid - would also be an opportunity for both of you to see each other on neutral ground. Go on a cruise where you're both 'captive audience' and see what comes of it. I pretty much realized my marriage was toast when we were in probably the most beautiful part of the world for my liking (inner passage Alaska) and went for some drinks with the good Dr. She did not say a single expletive deleted word in 2 hours. Just stared into the night. If you're lucky (or unlucky) she may do the same to you in which case you have your marching papers all prepared and signed.


Our alone weekends or vacations always go great, sans sex. I just have no interest. I'm open to selling house. But not biting new one now . As for another baby, no. ****ing. Way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Then use the opportunity to "buy a new house", cough cough 

Is Mrs. BB able to sustain herself post divorce (education, experience) ?? Planning for an exit strategy is never a bad idea.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Then use the opportunity to "buy a new house", cough cough
> 
> Is Mrs. BB able to sustain herself post divorce (education, experience) ?? Planning for an exit strategy is never a bad idea.


She has degree. Full time and part time exp I'm her field. My qual of life would change minimally. Hers would change more. But she would of course adjust and land on her feet. It pains me but I know security I bring is a reason she stays. Not only reason but deg a big factor
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Well.... Could it be that she resents the Mommy Track? Would she be happier working? 

I know my wife can't fathom the idea of not working... Our girls did the daycare routine and turned out ok so...


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Totally read up on those. I've received some. I used to bite back too aggressively and in an immature way. Now I calmly tell her it's not acceptable to use that tone with me, and I continue what I'm doing. My follow through is in A. not sulking and B. also not doing something 'extra' for her right after. So essentially if you snap at me, I'm not going to cry about it, but I'm also not going to jump off the couch and go make you a cup of cocoa either.
> 
> Probably not 100% mmsl, but still.


Try using humor. In essence, refuse to take her seriously when she acts like this. She may be interpreting your calm statements as being too indulgent of her. So the next time she tries something, laugh it off and tell her you will be happy to address serious issues.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> She has degree. Full time and part time exp I'm her field. My qual of life would change minimally. Hers would change more. But she would of course adjust and land on her feet. It pains me but I know security I bring is a reason she stays. Not only reason but deg a big factor
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One option is to take the security away. Tell her she needs to go back to work.


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris,
The phrase 'I suppose' typically means: I don't really believe you. 

And that's ok.

Preventing a devout catholic from remarrying by denying them an annulment is just vandalism. It fans you nothing but deprives them of companionship. 

Perhaps there's some embedded arrogance in all this. At some level I don't believe M2 could upgrade. Don't get me wrong, short term she could have intensely hot sex for a while. But long term, I don't believe she would be as happy with anyone else. That's more than enough punishment for me. 



QUOTE=Lyris;7190169]Well that's noble of you I suppose. For me, the words "made your bed" would come to mind. 

But I don't like being taken care of, unless I feel I'm giving equal or more in return. And if I did what your wife did, I would expect my husband to say I guess you weren't worth it after all. He wouldn't be vengeful, but he wouldn't think I deserved any of his concern particularly. 

And I wouldn't accept the help of someone I had hurt so badly.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Watch the pattern:

Tactical pattern
- W says something nasty to you without any apparent trigger
- Shortly after she pretends like nothing happened. She doesn't even acknowledge her ugly behavior, much less apologize or try to make amends. 

Strategic pattern
- You tell W you are overall VERY unhappy with how she is treating you. Her disrespectful comments, the broken sex life and her lack of concern with your distress over that sexual disconnect. 
- She shuts down counseling when it's her turn to step up
- She casually talks about huge additional commitment levels as if your unhappiness with the status quo is a total non issue

They are the same. It's all about her all the time. You and your feelings are a non issue. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> Mem, I remain silent . Not trying to prove a point or play game, I just literally have nothing to say. I haven't pieced my thoughts together in a way that would allow me to honestly respond and not have it meaningful
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

*Extraordinarily angry*

John,
You have made countless posts that all state some version of the following:

I have committed to fund undergraduate and graduate and a year of foreign work/study for each of our girls. Therefore I cannot AFFORD to divorce my W since I need her help to pay for all this. 

While I 100 percent respect your right to make your own major life decisions, I find the combination of the theme above, and your advice to Boston below to reflect an outrageous contradiction. 

Given your non-stop comments about your financial handcuffs, why the heck are you telling him that an incremental 300K - 500K financial commitment isn't a HUGE step. And a foolish one given his current context. 

To hell with his state of mind, what about hers. Agreeing to a second child is the ultimate vote of approval for the way your spouse is treating you. It will make her certain beyond measure that he is ok with the way she treats him. 

From one father to another, I am embarrassed for you. This is simply appallingly bad advice. 



john117 said:


> If there's a baby already another one won't make a difference other than a year or two more of the same. In for a penny, etc. It's not a good idea to have another child obviously in this state of mind.
> 
> The house could be a big advantage if you're interested in parting ways. As in, decide to build a house, so sell current house first, move to apartment... Then drop the MOAB.
> 
> Vacation - preferably without the kid - would also be an opportunity for both of you to see each other on neutral ground. Go on a cruise where you're both 'captive audience' and see what comes of it. I pretty much realized my marriage was toast when we were in probably the most beautiful part of the world for my liking (inner passage Alaska) and went for some drinks with the good Dr. She did not say a single expletive deleted word in 2 hours. Just stared into the night. If you're lucky (or unlucky) she may do the same to you in which case you have your marching papers all prepared and signed.


----------



## MEM2020

SA,
The brutal truth is he could have easily slept with my W and he didn't. For 3 years HE resisted the impulse. If that doesn't make him a good man, I don't know what does. 

As for me, well alls well that ends well. 



QUOTE=SimplyAmorous;7192625]I read your story here MEM... so sorry to hear all of this play down....my heart was sinking reading HOW that must have felt for you....realizing WHY she was so passionate in bed... 

That is taking Transparency to it's limits...if only it was started at the seed stage...it would have destroyed the "secret" ...it just wouldn't have built to what it did... 

Just goes to show how an intense attraction can take *anyone* down...how we need to be accountable to our spouses... keep the fires burning at home...and boundaries, so very important....you said you were being too passive...the fact it didn't go physical ..... a blessing... 

How you spoke GOOD of this Man... taking yourself out of the equation... I don't think many could DO THIS... 



Things happen in marriages...it's not always pretty.....sounds she still loves you... this too can be overcome...if its what you both want and fight for.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Chumpless

Anon Pink said:


> My H did that to me, stopped initiating without letting me know why. It only made things worse. There were times I did want that closeness, but he had grown so distant from me, and at the time, I was totally inhibited about my sexuality that I could NOT initiate, could not bridge that gap.
> 
> I just don't think this is going to help but only prolong both of your suffering and create a wider gap.


This is the risk I see with doing the 180. When I disconnect from my wife, it only makes things worse. She disconnects too.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Here's the thing. I know I could look my father in law in the eye, in the 'after life' and say: I know you didn't expect me to tolerate an open ended affair when you asked me to 'take care of her'. 

You have no boundaries, resulting in no respect, resulting in no sex life. 

If you won't 'man up', you can't expect the perks of a man.

M2 is showering right now, knowing that I will be showering right after so that we can connect. And ummm, that was her idea not mine. As it was last night, and the night before. 

So you can do this 'simulated zen' thing all you want. There is no escaping the truth which is this. I have treated M2 like gold, because I love her. She doesn't have the option of demanding my celibacy. That just isn't an available option. She can:
- love me (which is the choice she has made)
- leave me (a choice that I will not obstruct) or
- accept a marriage that is exactly the same save for me outsourcing the sexual part of it)

This isn't all that complicated. 



Trying2figureitout said:


> BB...
> 
> I think you need to compartmentalize your issue and re-evaluate. It is just sex and what you are struggling with as all of us are is a sense of fairness after all you are married and she should like sex just as much as you and want you.
> 
> I am now at peace with my decision to stay and see where life takes me for now. AS long as you are there there is a chance sex returns when your spouse decides she wants more out of life.
> 
> I also made my wife's Father a promise to take care of her and I love her Dad like my own father...so that does factor in to my decision.
> 
> I know your inner struggles all to well and what got me to this point was doing my best for a period of time (4yrs) that I felt was well within the parameters of any healing process necessary. A time of compassion ,understanding and patience.
> 
> Now I am beyond that and have no regrets. So the moral of the story is do your best and then live with whatever decision you make after your best fails. You only have to satisfy your own mind that is where the real battle is.
> 
> I do think its nearly impossible to do your best forever (for your spouse) when sex is rare...at some point you simply stop banging your head against the wall and make a decision YOU can live with and be happy with. Whatever your spouse gets is inconsequential at that point. You need to move on and get your mind back so you can enjoy life fully again.
> 
> Its not perfect but every person has to weigh staying vs outsourcing/leaving
> I only want sex with my own wife so my decision for now is easy.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

MEM11363 said:


> If you won't 'man up', you can't expect the perks of a man.


Ouch. Hey I may have found my new signature line.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> IGiven your non-stop comments about your financial handcuffs, why the heck are you telling him that an incremental 300K - 500K financial commitment isn't a HUGE step. And a foolish one given his current context.
> 
> 
> 
> To hell with his state of mind, what about hers. Agreeing to a second child is the ultimate vote of approval for the way your spouse is treating you. It will make her certain beyond measure that he is ok with the way she treats him.
> 
> 
> 
> From one father to another, I am embarrassed for you. This is simply appallingly bad advice.



A couple of observations......

First off, you read way too much into the few words I wrote - it makes no difference means once they hit divorce court, 1 child or 2 children or the Octomom octuplets won't make it any easier. It's painful. The financial difference between divorcing with one child and two is substantial, granted, but a divorce has costs far higher than money, and these costs (emotional for example) are "flat rate".... 

One of my coworkers recently divorced with six children. Wife walked out basically. Do you think his pain and the pain caused to the rest of the family would be half as much if he only had three children? 

Second, I made it quite clear that I did not think this was a good idea given the prevailing states of mind. Read, their interpersonal state of mind. If the way they see each other does not change (state of mind) that's all she wrote.

Advice on the interwebs is generally worth what one pays for it. What is far more valuable is the options one realizes they may have. BB, like any sane adult, knows it's not to his benefit to try for another child when such issues are on the table. He's looking for options.


----------



## Chumpless

Sorry if I hijacked this thread, but some of my situation is similar to the OP's. However, I do know that my wife can be attracted to others, whether fantasy or real life. Just not me. It's always some lame excuse, I correct my behavior and there is still no change.

I told her the other day that sex is just not fun for me if she's not into it. She knows darn well how important to me it is, but is only willing to offer up pity rations.

This not knowing is really taking a toll on me mentally and I told her I'm not sure how much longer I can take it. Since saying that, she seems to be very nice to me, but that's all.

We both know that other women find me attractive. I just don't get it.


----------



## MEM2020

It's obvious she doesn't care that BB is very unhappy. 

A discussion about another child is the vehicle for actually getting her attention. 

I honestly don't understand you John, and I thought I did. 

As for 6 children vs 3, I agree with your point. But that's not the situation here. 

And the vacation conversation ought to be very short: For whatever reason, you are often angry and hostile towards me in our day to day. Because of that, I have no desire to go on vacation with you. 

FYI: If she ends the marriage because he won't take her on a cruise, you have a fairly good sense of her viewpoint which is: it's ok to deprive Boston of sex, and ok to speak to him like a servant, but a total deal breaker if she doesn't get taken on vacation...

Ready munchies thread. A BIG reason she cited for believing everything was fine was that her H took her on nice vacations. 




john117 said:


> If there's a baby already another one won't make a difference other than a year or two more of the same. In for a penny, etc. It's not a good idea to have another child obviously in this state of mind.
> 
> The house could be a big advantage if you're interested in parting ways. As in, decide to build a house, so sell current house first, move to apartment... Then drop the MOAB.
> 
> Vacation - preferably without the kid - would also be an opportunity for both of you to see each other on neutral ground. Go on a cruise where you're both 'captive audience' and see what comes of it. I pretty much realized my marriage was toast when we were in probably the most beautiful part of the world for my liking (inner passage Alaska) and went for some drinks with the good Dr. She did not say a single expletive deleted word in 2 hours. Just stared into the night. If you're lucky (or unlucky) she may do the same to you in which case you have your marching papers all prepared and signed.


----------



## Lyris

I don't actually doubt you would do what you say you would. I do question whether it's a good course of action, which is where the supposing came in. 

But then, I don't think I've made much secret of the fact that I think your wife sounds like a high maintenance nightmare a lot of the time, and that I think you could probably do better.




MEM11363 said:


> Lyris
> The phrase 'I suppose' typically means: I don't really believe you.
> 
> And that's ok.
> 
> Preventing a devout catholic from remarrying by denying them an annulment is just vandalism. It fans you nothing but deprives them of companionship.
> 
> Perhaps there's some embedded arrogance in all this. At some level I don't believe M2 could upgrade. Don't get me wrong, short term she could have intensely hot sex for a while. But long term, I don't believe she would be as happy with anyone else. That's more than enough punishment for me.
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=Lyris;7190169]Well that's noble of you I suppose. For me, the words "made your bed" would come to mind.
> 
> But I don't like being taken care of, unless I feel I'm giving equal or more in return. And if I did what your wife did, I would expect my husband to say I guess you weren't worth it after all. He wouldn't be vengeful, but he wouldn't think I deserved any of his concern particularly.
> 
> And I wouldn't accept the help of someone I had hurt so badly.


[/QUOTE]


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> It's obvious she doesn't care that BB is very unhappy.
> 
> A discussion about another child is the vehicle for actually getting her attention.
> 
> I honestly don't understand you John, and I thought I did.
> 
> As for 6 children vs 3, I agree with your point. But that's not the situation here.
> 
> And the vacation conversation ought to be very short: For whatever reason, you are often angry and hostile towards me in our day to day. Because of that, I have no desire to go on vacation with you.
> 
> FYI: If she ends the marriage because he won't take her on a cruise, you have a fairly good sense of her viewpoint which is: it's ok to deprive Boston of sex, and ok to speak to him like a servant, but a total deal breaker if she doesn't get taken on vacation...
> 
> Ready munchies thread. A BIG reason she cited for believing everything was fine was that her H took her on nice vacations.


Let me step back for a minute.

i was pondering this on my way to work this AM. 

Is there any chance that the sexless issue is making me hyper sensitive to everything else in the marriage. I was my issues with the marriage are greater than the sexless aspect, but I'm trying to think this through.

What do or should I really expect from this marriage? Am I just too sensitive and pessimistic at the moment? 

I dont know how to explain why I'm wondering this, but What should I expect? what are all of your expectations from marriages?


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I was my issues with the marriage are greater than the sexless aspect, but I'm trying to think this through.
> 
> What do or should I really expect from this marriage? Am I just too sensitive and pessimistic at the moment?
> 
> I dont know how to explain why I'm wondering this, but What should I expect? what are all of your expectations from marriages?


Well, you would really have to search your soul for those answers. It is probably going to be different for everyone.

For me, the emotional connection is everything. It is the base, the foundation. I cannot relate at all to people who got married based on physical or sexual attraction. For me, our sex life springs out of our emotional connection. I am physically attracted to dh, but that would not have been enough for me. I can be attracted to men who are not physically attractive.

I think you have to get the emotional connection down if you want to get sex going. Probably the reason we have never been sexless, despite at least 15 years of nearly continuous breastfeeding, is our 100% emotional connection.

Financial issues, parenting differences, etc. all require an emotional connection to resolve. You need transparency and a willingness for each side to look at things through the other's eyes. You need to want to please each other. I do not know any other way.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Here's the thing. I know I could look my father in law in the eye, in the 'after life' and say: I know you didn't expect me to tolerate an open ended affair when you asked me to 'take care of her'.
> 
> You have no boundaries, resulting in no respect, resulting in no sex life.
> 
> If you won't 'man up', you can't expect the perks of a man.
> 
> M2 is showering right now, knowing that I will be showering right after so that we can connect. And ummm, that was her idea not mine. As it was last night, and the night before.
> 
> So you can do this 'simulated zen' thing all you want. There is no escaping the truth which is this. I have treated M2 like gold, because I love her. She doesn't have the option of demanding my celibacy. That just isn't an available option. She can:
> - love me (which is the choice she has made)
> - leave me (a choice that I will not obstruct) or
> - accept a marriage that is exactly the same save for me outsourcing the sexual part of it)
> 
> This isn't all that complicated.


Its not simulated ZEN thing, its accepting the situation and moving on.

As for manning up... anyone can threaten divorce or leave I choose to stay and at a point of my choosing I will decide to talk about splitting if there is no improvement.

I guess I believe in free choice of a person rather than railroading someone into " love me" or else these two options occur.

Love or more appropriately sex life level is complicated and even those currently having great regular sex are at risk of it going south at any moment.


----------



## MEM2020

LOL




WorkingOnMe said:


> Ouch. Hey I may have found my new signature line.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> Is there any chance that the sexless issue is making me hyper sensitive to everything else in the marriage. I was my issues with the marriage are greater than the sexless aspect, but I'm trying to think this through.



Definitely. 

I realized the checkout line had been crossed when I discovered that a day or two after great sex my attitude towards my partner had not changed even temporarily towards being more understanding. In our good years both of us would be 'transformed' temporarily to be more accepting and compromising. It could be a chicken and egg issue of course.

Right now I am far more observant of her flaws and have no problem voicing my concerns. Likewise for her.


----------



## john117

MEM, difficult times call for strange approaches. Are you familiar with disruptive thinking? 

If you present a hard line approach 100% of the time the other side eventually adjusts and you end up in a North Korea style stalemate. If the other side is unable to predict what you will do they will be far more attentive to, and sensitive to, and receptive to, the ups and downs. 

If it were me I would play along with the "another baby" idea until the time for the actual deed. Then while her expectations are for X. Y and Z I would lay out the issue in great detail and ask if a normal person would be expected to play along. 

Same for the house, sell the current place, move to an apartment or rental, and when the nice house comes along...

You're making the assumption of normalcy, and we ain't dealing with normal folk here. 

If your course of action is always predictable the results are, too.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I agree that you cannot be completely negative/difficult. 

But it feels like a violation of the golden rule to sell the house, pretending that you are good with an upgrade, and then blitz your spouse with a divorce. 

As for the timing about saying 'no' to another child, maybe you're right and it is best postponed. 



QUOTE=john117;7213554]MEM, difficult times call for strange approaches. Are you familiar with disruptive thinking? 

If you present a hard line approach 100% of the time the other side eventually adjusts and you end up in a North Korea style stalemate. If the other side is unable to predict what you will do they will be far more attentive to, and sensitive to, and receptive to, the ups and downs. 

If it were me I would play along with the "another baby" idea until the time for the actual deed. Then while her expectations are for X. Y and Z I would lay out the issue in great detail and ask if a normal person would be expected to play along. 

Same for the house, sell the current place, move to an apartment or rental, and when the nice house comes along...

You're making the assumption of normalcy, and we ain't dealing with normal folk here. 

If your course of action is always predictable the results are, too.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

The golden rule was violated much earlier by her. While there is much to be said about the perceived morality of my approach, the results should be quite rewarding.

Personally I would wish for a men's BC pill for exactly these cases. Agree to an Octomom's worth of babies, take your manly moon-tea (*) daily, and after a few months of "effort" of great sex compared to previous months and, ehem, compare and contrast. 

Some people only understand shock and awe, as Major Dad often said. 

(*) apologies for those not reading fantasy fiction like George R R Martin...


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> Let me step back for a minute.
> 
> i was pondering this on my way to work this AM.
> 
> Is there any chance that the sexless issue is making me hyper sensitive to everything else in the marriage. I was my issues with the marriage are greater than the sexless aspect, but I'm trying to think this through.
> 
> What do or should I really expect from this marriage? Am I just too sensitive and pessimistic at the moment?
> 
> I dont know how to explain why I'm wondering this, but What should I expect? what are all of your expectations from marriages?


You are too pessimistic at the moment, but it soon might NOT be too pessimistic.


Does your wife acknowledge that you are working on changing things? Are you willing to acknowledge that she is working on changing things? I haven't read MMSL yet, and while I am sure it has some very good thoughts, I'm not sure if it acknowledges communication the way it should. 

If your wife is still more affectionate than she had been recently, tell her you appreciate it. And really appreciate it. I KNOW I expect my wife to notice when I actively try to change things and I also expect her to mention it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

1812overture said:


> You are too pessimistic at the moment, but it soon might NOT be too pessimistic.
> 
> 
> Does your wife acknowledge that you are working on changing things? Are you willing to acknowledge that she is working on changing things? I haven't read MMSL yet, and while I am sure it has some very good thoughts, I'm not sure if it acknowledges communication the way it should.
> 
> If your wife is still more affectionate than she had been recently, tell her you appreciate it. And really appreciate it. I KNOW I expect my wife to notice when I actively try to change things and I also expect her to mention it.


Maybe. The affection is a good trend, but I'm also a
Lot more independent lately so I think some of her affection or "I love you" comments are her seeking validation that I'm still. I don't say it back everytime because I sometimes font feel love for her inside. So yes she's been more affectionate. So aren't I happy with this trend? I should be. But I feel cold . I haven't initiated in weeks, and unfortunately my drive has been very dulled down, not even much interest in masturbating. Essentially I get home from work. Play with out daughter. Work out. Or shovel. Or do something that takes up physical and or mental energy. Then just focus hard on falling asleep. Wash repeat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

It's time to give her the ILYBINILWY speech.


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's time to give her the ILYBINILWY speech.


Not quite ready to nail that in the coffin. Yes that's unfair to her. 

And no I'm not having an affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Not quite ready to nail that in the coffin. Yes that's unfair to her.


Then perhaps the "I am losing my love for you" speech.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Then perhaps the "I am losing my love for you" speech.


Now that I agree its time for. I just need to orchestrate it constructively.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I thought that you have already had that speech several times?


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> I thought that you have already had that speech several times?


Losing my love is stronger wording. Never used that specifically
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other

Trying2figureitout said:


> I will concede your point...however I am fine with my current path
> 
> I told my wife when I was taking to her years ago..I don't want sex with you if you don't want it with me.
> 
> So so far I have to live with that statement.
> 
> My goal is to have sex with my wife when she wants it with me.
> 
> Not when she is coerced into it..I could have had that in fact she offered to "spread her legs for me " anytime and I told her no and I'll wait until she wants it.
> 
> Its fairly easy to coerce someone into doing something they don't want to...I wanted more and am willing to sacrifice my sex life to get what I want eventually and when she decides she wants sex with me.


If you lost your libido, but you wife still had her libido, would you help her gain sexual relief or refuse all sexual intimacy?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Mr The Other said:


> If you lost your libido, but you wife still had her libido, would you help her gain sexual relief or refuse all sexual intimacy?


Like normal married couples, i do things that are not important to me but important to her. Out of love. So yes to your question 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Losing my love is stronger wording. Never used that specifically
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seems like that is a bit of information that she would need to know right?


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> Like normal married couples, i do things that are not important to me but important to her. Out of love. So yes to your question
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I gotta' think this is one of those things where you really can't know what you would do until you are in it. I _suppose_ that if I have a bad accident that my wife helps me survive that leaves me impotent, I would work on pleasing her (assuming I had a wife who enjoyed sex -- the hypotheticals get tricky). But if/when libido just slips over time, I _suppose_ then sex becomes work. I can't be as confident I would _work_ at sexually pleasing my wife if I got nothing out of it (again, if my wife had an interest.)

As to "I'm losing my love for you," if it's true, tell her. But if you do it, do it so it gives her and you a chance to fix things. If I remember it right, you are early 30s, she's younger, you have one child about three. The sexless thing has gone for roughly two years? With a child under the age of one, that's a pass for your wife. There's no way around that, given the physical and maybe emotional trauma of childbirth (post-partum can start at 8 months, and can be mild, thus not diagnosed). For another year (or after child starts sleeping through the night) it can be a bad habit. Habits can be hard to break. 

Your wife has reacted positively to your changes. You want to reinforce that, keep it going AND push for more. Is your wife generally an uncaring person? I'd guess not. So this behavior is out of character, but needs to be addressed. 

Part of me says address it now -- because in another six years, you'll be me, and that sucks (and I did nothing to address it until recently). Part of me says be very careful about an ultimatum-- will your daughter benefit from spending M-W with you, and every other weekend, while coming home from elementary school to a babysitter? Or worse, do you see her even less than that, for whatever reason you don't know her about the school assembly where she plays the xylophone, you don't get to take her on her first ski trip (her new step-Dad does that), etc.

Maybe you're getting laid like a rockstar, and that makes it worth it. Maybe you have close emotional bond with a new woman, AND you are getting laid like a rockstar, AND your daughter clearly wants to spend as much time as possible with you and her new stepmom.

IF you can fix your marriage (the problems that made it sexless, and the sexless part), that's the preferable solution, right?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Yeah to be honest, I don't want a divorce. i don't want weekend visitation with my daughter. i dont want step dads and step moms for her. Id prefer to fix this obviously. 

I'm just so frustrated. Like why can't she just spill the beans or make an attempt to understand and express herself? If its a loss of attraction, just please tell me rather than bull****ting me with talk of more kids, a new house, and future plans. Just stop it. She's 30 yrs old. We're both young and have a life ahead of us that could be very fulfilling. It's not like we're 63 yrs old and on the back nine. 

The other thing I find so comical here is that in the case of MMSL or Nice Guy situations, women should consider looking internally. What I mean by this is that yes I was alpha in trying to get her pants off early on. I was alpha in trying to win her over. But the beta that grew in me is not 100% home grown (i'm not assigning 100% blame to her, just hear me out). Many of the wives I read about here seem to, admittedly, change their expectiations for a man. Once married, they want the settled down, domesticated man. The man that gets her everything she needs and provides for her etc. 

Once this influence succeeds on thier man, they lose attraction because hes not the same as he was pre marriage. Its like saying please cut your hair short and trim the beard now that we're married. Then after the haircut, she loses interest because she has an epiphany that she likes burly hairier men.

Yes this is extreme, and yes this is not 100% of the population. I'm just saying it feels like there are two sides to the coin here. So if my wife has lost attraction in me, I'd really appreciate it if she comes out and tells me why or acts on it and initiates a divorce.


----------



## Openminded

Believe me, at 63 you will very likely still be going. Most of us who are 63 or older are. That's something you don't realize when you are young. You think you will be pretty much done by then. But you likely won't be. And that's a very long time to be sexless. The rest of your life if this isn't fixed.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Openminded said:


> Believe me, at 63 you will very likely still be going. Most of us who are 63 or older are. That's something you don't realize when you are young. You think you will be pretty much done by then. But you likely won't be. And that's a very long time to be sexless. The rest of your life if this isn't fixed.


I totally agree. I was just emphasizing the point that we're still young. She can still meet a normal guy after me. She can afford a life on her own. She could have more children with mr right. She could find her sexual ignition switch with another man. 

This would be far easier if I gained 30lbs since we met, couldnt hold a job, was an alcoholic, and loved knitting..then at least I could tie this thing out a little bit. But I'm just so sick of sitting in the dark on this. lonely as hell. 

thank god I'm at work right now. having a bad day thinking about all this. at least i have some hours to vent and then let the frustration pass before I actually head home.


----------



## Openminded

Another thing. She can likely spend the rest of her life as things are now. Another baby. Another house. Vacations. 

She's likely very happy. So she isn't going to get a divorce. Why would she.


----------



## john117

Boston, even knowing why she's not interested in sex may not be the answer if she won't fix it.

My wife is back in her "hates the world" mood these days due to work related issues. That is not going to get resolved any time soon. So, she paints everyone and everything black, good little BPD that she is, and that's all she wrote.

Finding the reason is important but it may not do you any good if she's unable or unwilling to work herself out of it or seek help. If you find that you're dealing with some heavy duty depression or resentments or this or that personality disorder, knowing the reason will be like winning the NIT.

It's not beta men vs alpha men when it gets to this level. What you may be dealing with could be beyond the reach of DIY fixing.


----------



## Openminded

BostonBruins32 said:


> I totally agree. I was just emphasizing the point that we're still young. She can still meet a normal guy after me. She can afford a life on her own. She could have more children with mr right. She could find her sexual ignition switch with another man.
> 
> This would be far easier if I gained 30lbs since we met, couldnt hold a job, was an alcoholic, and loved knitting..then at least I could tie this thing out a little bit. But I'm just so sick of sitting in the dark on this. lonely as hell.
> 
> thank god I'm at work right now. having a bad day thinking about all this. at least i have some hours to vent and then let the frustration pass before I actually head home.


Yes, you are very young. With an entire life ahead of you. I think she's content. She doesn't want another man. She very likely loves you. She is just not interested in sex. That is true for far more women than should be the case.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Openminded said:


> Another thing. She can likely spend the rest of her life as things are now. Another baby. Another house. Vacations.
> 
> She's likely very happy. So she isn't going to get a divorce. Why would she.


So is there a difference between her having a sexual attraction to me vs a physical attraction to me vs a loving attraction to me?

because i would think if those are missing, she'd be unhappy. And I actually truly wonder if she wishes she had a more fulfilling sex life, or a desire to have one. unless she TRULY is LD(not LD because of me or whatever).


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Boston, even knowing why she's not interested in sex may not be the answer if she won't fix it.
> 
> My wife is back in her "hates the world" mood these days due to work related issues. That is not going to get resolved any time soon. So, she paints everyone and everything black, good little BPD that she is, and that's all she wrote.
> 
> Finding the reason is important but it may not do you any good if she's unable or unwilling to work herself out of it or seek help. If you find that you're dealing with some heavy duty depression or resentments or this or that personality disorder, knowing the reason will be like winning the NIT.
> 
> It's not beta men vs alpha men when it gets to this level. What you may be dealing with could be beyond the reach of DIY fixing.


If I look at her and think about her few comments in counseling, I see resentment and some form of depression or misunderstanding about who she is. I cant pin point it, but she did say she doesnt know who she is, and has spent much of her life trying to play the part. Do the right thing. Dont screw up. etc etc. 

but I do know she still finds things sexually attractive. She thinks certain actors are sexually attractive. She can make sexual jokes. She has stated that the sex is great when we do it. So theres a sexual chip in her. Maybe its not the act of sex though? thats why i said earlier maybe she would end up in this spot no matter who the guy is. meaning that its something internally in her, and not Mr Boston's fault.

It could go either way. Its interesting because maybe I need to have more faith in what she says. She said in counseling that sex is just not important to her and she could go months without it. She also tells me she loves me and always have and always will. And I've always been the one for her and she loves me more than I'll ever know. Who knows, maybe the problem is my train of thought. Maybe sex really isnt something she cares about often. Yet my thick head won't believe her because I'm too stubborn. Maybe she really does love me and finds me attractive? Yet my thick skull won't believe her. I'm an action person. blah blah blah means nothing. I watch behaviors and reactions. 

So when she says she loves me to the moon, I think to myself then why cant you be sexual with me and why are you so critical of every breath i take? And when she says sex isnt important to her, then why does she orgasm when we have it and why does she still have a sense of sexuality(attractive actors or laughing at sexual jokes)? Words do not seem to match behavior in my opinion here.


----------



## BostonBruins32

joelmacdad said:


> Okay, maybe this won't be funny or will be. I still think BB's wife either wants or needs a spanking!


needs, probably. wants, doubtful.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Openminded said:


> Yes, you are very young. With an entire life ahead of you. I think she's content. She doesn't want another man. She very likely loves you. She is just not interested in sex. That is true for far more women than should be the case.


most of what i read subscribes to the theory that 99% of LD women are interested in sex, just not with YOU (me in this case). so maybe you are right, or maybe the 99% i'm stating here is super inaccurate and biased based on these forums.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Why would you not assume that she is truly LD? Now maybe she was higher drive before but a lot of people both men and women seem to be interested in sex at first and then loose interest after a few years. Women have the additional burden of having kids and all the changes that creates. 

What is the purpose of assuming that she likes sex but just not with you? 

I still have to question how well you are communicating to your wife if you have not explained to her that you want love and not a roommate?


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> Why would you not assume that she is truly LD? Now maybe she was higher drive before but a lot of people both men and women seem to be interested in sex at first and then loose interest after a few years. Women have the additional burden of having kids and all the changes that creates.
> 
> What is the purpose of assuming that she likes sex but just not with you?
> 
> I still have to question how well you are communicating to your wife if you have not explained to her that you want love and not a roommate?


I'm assuming this because everything I read from people in similar situations screams that its YOU she doesnt want sex with. Meaning LD women are not TRULY LD most of the time, but rather thier attraction has changed.

communication:
last "serious" talk we had a few weeks ago I told her that I was very unhappy with where we were in this marriage. I told her the lack of intimacy in the bedroom and her unwillingness to address it has made me feel unloved. she sorta just cried and said im sorry. Said nothing else. She seems like a deer in headlights who shuts down with these serious talks. She listens says sorry and thats it. 

This last serious talk was my most honest one of all time, as I said I was unhappy with where we were in this marriage and that I could not go on forever like this. She knows where I stand. I just havent pulled the plug or made a iconic move to drive home the point. 

just too bad she cant listen and react. instead it seems she needs me to move the earth to really get her to address it. Its like if my daughter says she has to go potty, i could just ignore her until she pees herself and the couch. why cant i just listen to her and help her go potty.


----------



## MEM2020

1812,
Love the screen name.

I read versions of the bolded bit below on here all the time. And whenever I read them I feel sad. 

Everyone has selfish motivations and that's ok. 

But here's the thing, I KNOW how I feel when I do something special for M2 and her eyes light up. 

And I KNOW how I feel when I clumsily hit a vulnerability and hear the anguish in her voice. 

Provider and protector circuitry, what's more powerful than that. 
-----





*But if/when libido just slips over time, I suppose then sex becomes work. I can't be as confident I would work at sexually pleasing my wife if I got nothing out of it (again, if my wife had an interest.)*




1812overture said:


> I gotta' think this is one of those things where you really can't know what you would do until you are in it. I _suppose_ that if I have a bad accident that my wife helps me survive that leaves me impotent, I would work on pleasing her (assuming I had a wife who enjoyed sex -- the hypotheticals get tricky). But if/when libido just slips over time, I _suppose_ then sex becomes work. I can't be as confident I would _work_ at sexually pleasing my wife if I got nothing out of it (again, if my wife had an interest.)
> 
> As to "I'm losing my love for you," if it's true, tell her. But if you do it, do it so it gives her and you a chance to fix things. If I remember it right, you are early 30s, she's younger, you have one child about three. The sexless thing has gone for roughly two years? With a child under the age of one, that's a pass for your wife. There's no way around that, given the physical and maybe emotional trauma of childbirth (post-partum can start at 8 months, and can be mild, thus not diagnosed). For another year (or after child starts sleeping through the night) it can be a bad habit. Habits can be hard to break.
> 
> Your wife has reacted positively to your changes. You want to reinforce that, keep it going AND push for more. Is your wife generally an uncaring person? I'd guess not. So this behavior is out of character, but needs to be addressed.
> 
> Part of me says address it now -- because in another six years, you'll be me, and that sucks (and I did nothing to address it until recently). Part of me says be very careful about an ultimatum-- will your daughter benefit from spending M-W with you, and every other weekend, while coming home from elementary school to a babysitter? Or worse, do you see her even less than that, for whatever reason you don't know her about the school assembly where she plays the xylophone, you don't get to take her on her first ski trip (her new step-Dad does that), etc.
> 
> Maybe you're getting laid like a rockstar, and that makes it worth it. Maybe you have close emotional bond with a new woman, AND you are getting laid like a rockstar, AND your daughter clearly wants to spend as much time as possible with you and her new stepmom.
> 
> IF you can fix your marriage (the problems that made it sexless, and the sexless part), that's the preferable solution, right?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Yeah to be honest, I don't want a divorce. i don't want weekend visitation with my daughter. i dont want step dads and step moms for her. Id prefer to fix this obviously.
> 
> I'm just so frustrated. Like why can't she just spill the beans or make an attempt to understand and express herself? If its a loss of attraction, just please tell me rather than bull****ting me with talk of more kids, a new house, and future plans. Just stop it. She's 30 yrs old. We're both young and have a life ahead of us that could be very fulfilling. It's not like we're 63 yrs old and on the back nine.


All you can do is control yourself. Getting frustrated over your inability to make another person do what you want is a ticket to a life of resentment.



> The other thing I find so comical here is that in the case of MMSL or Nice Guy situations, women should consider looking internally. What I mean by this is that yes I was alpha in trying to get her pants off early on. I was alpha in trying to win her over. But the beta that grew in me is not 100% home grown (i'm not assigning 100% blame to her, just hear me out). Many of the wives I read about here seem to, admittedly, change their expectiations for a man. Once married, they want the settled down, domesticated man. The man that gets her everything she needs and provides for her etc.
> 
> Once this influence succeeds on thier man, they lose attraction because hes not the same as he was pre marriage. Its like saying please cut your hair short and trim the beard now that we're married. Then after the haircut, she loses interest because she has an epiphany that she likes burly hairier men.
> 
> Yes this is extreme, and yes this is not 100% of the population. I'm just saying it feels like there are two sides to the coin here. So if my wife has lost attraction in me, I'd really appreciate it if she comes out and tells me why or acts on it and initiates a divorce.


Your job is keeping the traits that she wants and is attracted to. Part of being a man is juggling your new responsibilities with the old characteristics that kept her excited about you. It is a bit unclear how you can complain about her changing, yet be upset that she is not fine with your changes. I also tend to doubt that they are all on her. So you can complain about the work, or you do it. And that is ignoring the changes she has gone through with pregnancy, the hormones, giving birth and motherhood that can alter her perceptions. In that way, women "evolve" a lot more and differently than men do.

I will also add that marriage and child birth can trigger things in a CSA victim. So the changes you are complaining about may be beyond your control.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I think you need to be more positive and proactive. Simply complaining and saying you are not happy will not cut it. 

She has no idea why she does not want sex more and you are putting her in a situation that she does not know how to solve.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

usmarriedguy said:


> She has no idea why she does not want sex more and you are putting her in a situation that she does not know how to solve.


She also refusing to solve it. She won't try things, go to a counselor, or to a doctor. She hears him and knows this is an issue, but takes no affirmative steps to fix things.

One can't make her. But if this is her choice, she can't reasonably be upset over the natural consequences.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> I think you need to be more positive and proactive. Simply complaining and saying you are not happy will not cut it.
> 
> She has no idea why she does not want sex more and you are putting her in a situation that she does not know how to solve.


except I cant give her the Ray Rice treatment and drag her to the counselor or dr or whatever. I cant force her to read the Schnarch books. So all I can do is say theres a problem. The counseler agrees. She agrees. Ok next step? balls in your court sugar.

I dont complain to her about it. I'm jovial at home, not siletn to her or anything. Not frowning. just having fun at home and still being me. Only difference is that I'm not doing over the top crap for her (running out to grab something because she forgot it on way home or starting her car in the morning) I'm a complainer to you guys because thats what this is for, i think


----------



## naiveonedave

BB - been following this thread.....

I think you really need to give her the "I am falling out of love with you speech". Followed a few days later by ILBNILWY speech (not actually cheating, but considering it), followed by D papers. In pretty short order. Or else resgin to sexless marriage and follow Cletus and John.


----------



## BostonBruins32

naiveonedave said:


> BB - been following this thread.....
> 
> I think you really need to give her the "I am falling out of love with you speech". Followed a few days later by ILBNILWY speech (not actually cheating, but considering it), followed by D papers. In pretty short order. Or else resgin to sexless marriage and follow Cletus and John.


That's an option. Feels extreme for my situation. I think tgat series of events would need to be more spaced out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy

Well I hope she changes on her own because you are very passive.


----------



## Openminded

BostonBruins32 said:


> So is there a difference between her having a sexual attraction to me vs a physical attraction to me vs a loving attraction to me?
> 
> because i would think if those are missing, she'd be unhappy. And I actually truly wonder if she wishes she had a more fulfilling sex life, or a desire to have one. unless she TRULY is LD(not LD because of me or whatever).


She can absolutely have a loving attraction to you without sexual attraction and be totally okay with that. Many women in sexless marriages say they love their husbands. And I think they really mean it. They just aren't interested in sex.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Openminded said:


> She can absolutely have a loving attraction to you without sexual attraction and be totally okay with that. Many women in sexless marriages say they love their husbands. And I think they really mean it. They just aren't interested in sex.


But then am I just living with my mom? A roomate I love? To have and to hold?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

B,
You are doing everything right so far. 

And you are attempting to solve a massive respect issue without taking any real risk. And that is rational right up to the point where you won't have a CHOICE. 

Another child = a huge vote of approval for how you are being treated. Bigger house is the same thing. 

But B, you can't play Switzerland on those choices. There is no neutral position. They are either 
A YES or a NO. 

Your wife says: I'm in love with you 
And she clearly isn't. 

What she means is:
I'm going to keep up the facade so you can give me the bigger house, and the second, third, etc. babies. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> except I cant give her the Ray Rice treatment and drag her to the counselor or dr or whatever. I cant force her to read the Schnarch books. So all I can do is say theres a problem. The counseler agrees. She agrees. Ok next step? balls in your court sugar.
> 
> I dont complain to her about it. I'm jovial at home, not siletn to her or anything. Not frowning. just having fun at home and still being me. Only difference is that I'm not doing over the top crap for her (running out to grab something because she forgot it on way home or starting her car in the morning) I'm a complainer to you guys because thats what this is for, i think


----------



## Openminded

BostonBruins32 said:


> But then am I just living with my mom? A roomate I love? To have and to hold?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. And she sees no problem with that. Female sexuality is complex. She could very well be content with sex every few months or every few years. And if that's normal for her she may not understand why it's not okay with you. Few LD women understand what it's like to have a male sex drive.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"But then am I just living with my mom? A roomate I love? To have and to hold?"

That seems to be your choice.


----------



## MEM2020

*No no no*

Open,
M2 would have been content with about 1/5 the sex we have had over the last 25 years. 

I would have been content with one child. 

I wouldn't have been ok with 1/5 our sex life and M2 would have divorced me over 1/3 the number of children she wanted. 

There are two people in a marriage. They both have to be 'ok' with what is happening. 







Openminded said:


> Yes. And she sees no problem with that. Female sexuality is complex. She could very well be content with sex every few months or every few years. And if that's normal for her she may not understand why it's not okay with you. Few LD women understand what it's like to have a male sex drive.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Open,
> M2 would have been content with about 1/5 the sex we have had over the last 25 years.
> 
> I would have been content with one child.
> 
> I wouldn't have been ok with 1/5 our sex life and M2 would have divorced me over 1/3 the number of children she wanted.
> 
> There are two people in a marriage. They both have to be 'ok' with what is happening.


Really hurts to consider she doesn't love me, but I guess her actions scream this. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> You are doing everything right so far.
> 
> And you are attempting to solve a massive respect issue without taking any real risk. And that is rational right up to the point where you won't have a CHOICE.
> 
> Another child = a huge vote of approval for how you are being treated. Bigger house is the same thing.
> 
> But B, you can't play Switzerland on those choices. There is no neutral position. They are either
> A YES or a NO.
> 
> Your wife says: I'm in love with you
> And she clearly isn't.
> 
> What she means is:
> I'm going to keep up the facade so you can give me the bigger house, and the second, third, etc. babies.


Why does she want a house and another child with someone she doesn't love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## skype

BostonBruins32 said:


> Why does she want a house and another child with someone she doesn't love.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Security? Status?


----------



## usmarriedguy

That is b.s. 
mem does not know anything about your wife.


----------



## BostonBruins32

This is so depressing. What an awful day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

skype said:


> Security? Status?


well no real status here..middle class. 

but why would you want to live with someone 24/7 you dont love? many men can afford houses. many men have sperm for kids. so why not find one you love and roll with him


----------



## skype

BostonBruins32 said:


> well no real status here..middle class.
> 
> but why would you want to live with someone 24/7 you dont love? many men can afford houses. many men have sperm for kids. so why not find one you love and roll with him


I don't know, BB. My suspicion is that she has some huge wall of resentment built up, and she does not know how to be honest with you. She needs to understand that communication is crucial to a strong marriage. She needs to realize that a good sex life is the glue in a strong marriage. How to get her there? I think Mem's advice is very good for shaking up the dynamic in your relationship.


----------



## BostonBruins32

reading up on people who are narcissistic. does any of what I've said sound like this? its an interesting theory that she could have a tad of this. Some of it rings true to her.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> Why does she want a house and another child with someone she doesn't love.



Because she's not looking at the long term picture. A divorce is not fun by anyone's standards but being a single mom vs kicking up the sex drive is a no brainer.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Because she's not looking at the long term picture. A divorce is not fun by anyone's standards but being a single mom vs kicking up the sex drive is a no brainer.


I guess my greater point is that we have a house average by new england standards. we each have respectable cars. we have a healthy girl. we do more than your standard family vacations.

why the need to sell and get bigger house. and have more children. why sign up for these commitments right after she declared we had a problem that drove her away for 3 nights and us into counseling? even 1 month after that 3 night space thing, she was looking at houses, as she had done always.

its not like it recently seems better so now lets plan this stuff. She never stopped planning this stuff. 

just odd i guess.


----------



## BostonBruins32

really thinking about this. her mom almost left her father. she at one point told him she wasnt in love with him, i think during a financially stressful time. He was injured in bed and she was struggling to make ends meet. she took it back shortly after, and swore she was in love with him. he shared this with me a month after my wife did her space thing. he had never shared it with anyone, and said that to this day he feels differently about his wife. He loves her, but differently than before she said that.

hmm thinking outloud, mrs bb's mom considered divorcing mrs bb's dad, but didnt. Now I dont know how she was before this 'not in love with you' thing, but she is very demanding. fitness/**** tests like its going out of style. Severly extreme ones asking him to get something that is literally across the table from her, when he's in a different room. He fails all of them religiously. could mrs bb learn this behavior? like would she unintentionally assume this is how marriage is?

the only thing i know thats different is that mrs bb's mom is demanding but also gives a lot. will do anything anytime for anyone really. hmm.. just trying to really dig in here and share details with you all.


----------



## Openminded

I'm sorry you had a bad day. I don't feel that she doesn't love you. But she may not love you as much as you love her. And for certain she doesn't care about sex the same way. 

When we marry we like to think our spouse cares as much as we do. But that's not always true and even if it is it can still slide. 

I think she likes her life with you and doesn't want to change it.


----------



## john117

Planning is not some people's best attribute. My wife somehow thinks she can retire at 55 (1 year or so from now) and live off savings till Social Security age then SS and some pension she has kick in. 

That's beyond LOL - while she has a lot of money saved up, eating your nest egg is beyond stupid. She's healthy - very healthy actually - and will likely need the cash.

LOL-likewise she's considering splitting lol: :rofl: ) since she does not want to spend "all her money on her children". Apparently she's unaware of divorce court despite countless Lifetime Movie Network films she's seen.

So, planning is everything, but do it right.


----------



## MEM2020

US,
Lets start with a good faith effort to agree on definitions. And if we can't agree, let's at least try to understand each other's definitions. 

This is my definition of marital love, I fully accept that others may think it incomplete, or just plain wrong. Right or wrong it is a sincere view. 

Love is:
- The desire to support and care for your partner in a way that helps them be the best version of themselves. 
- The desire to avoid hurting your partner unnecessarily, coupled with the willingness to tell them painful truths when necessary. 
- The willingness to balance their needs with yours, just as you would want them to balance your needs with theirs.






usmarriedguy said:


> That is b.s.
> mem does not know anything about your wife.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Does your mother in law take good care of her H? Or is she a giver to everyone except him? 

And I have a hard time believing that a woman who treats her H like a servant, also has a sexual relationship with him. Those toe things are typically mutually exclusive. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> really thinking about this. her mom almost left her father. she at one point told him she wasnt in love with him, i think during a financially stressful time. He was injured in bed and she was struggling to make ends meet. she took it back shortly after, and swore she was in love with him. he shared this with me a month after my wife did her space thing. he had never shared it with anyone, and said that to this day he feels differently about his wife. He loves her, but differently than before she said that.
> 
> hmm thinking outloud, mrs bb's mom considered divorcing mrs bb's dad, but didnt. Now I dont know how she was before this 'not in love with you' thing, but she is very demanding. fitness/**** tests like its going out of style. Severly extreme ones asking him to get something that is literally across the table from her, when he's in a different room. He fails all of them religiously. could mrs bb learn this behavior? like would she unintentionally assume this is how marriage is?
> 
> the only thing i know thats different is that mrs bb's mom is demanding but also gives a lot. will do anything anytime for anyone really. hmm.. just trying to really dig in here and share details with you all.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> Does your mother in law take good care of her H? Or is she a giver to everyone except him?
> 
> And I have a hard time believing that a woman who treats her H like a servant, also has a sexual relationship with him. Those toe things are typically mutually exclusive.


She actually wants to, she seems randy. He is 100% the LD in their situation. He has zero interest. She takes good care of him. He does more for her but he also never asks for things from her. I'm sorta the same way. I don't ask for favors. I don't ask my wife for help . She's willing if I ask but I really never do. She does things like makes food I love even if not her fave. She picks up things like a sweater or a lure or a treat for me if she's out shopping or doing stuff for herself. Come to think of it as I'm typing this , I can't think of things I ask of her or even signal to her tgat I want. Hmm
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chumpless

BostonBruins32 said:


> Is there any chance that the sexless issue is making me hyper sensitive to everything else in the marriage.


Yes. What I hate now that I know my wife is not LD, but rather just LD4ME is not trusting her. And the last I checked, she was still a woman.


----------



## Chumpless

skype said:


> I don't know, BB. My suspicion is that she has some huge wall of resentment built up, and she does not know how to be honest with you. She needs to understand that communication is crucial to a strong marriage. She needs to realize that a good sex life is the glue in a strong marriage. How to get her there? I think Mem's advice is very good for shaking up the dynamic in your relationship.


This is what I'm thinking could be the root cause of my situation. If so, it's learned behavior from her mother because she sure knows how to hold a grudge. Not with me per se, but other family members.


----------



## john117

If she was holding a grudge it would manifest itself over other issues, not just sex. 

Sex is just the easiest to implement.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> If she was holding a grudge it would manifest itself over other issues, not just sex.
> 
> Sex is just the easiest to implement.


I disagree I think it can be a grudge and just manifest itself in sex, as a self preservation mechanism.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree I think it can be a grudge and just manifest itself in sex, as a self preservation mechanism.


not sure what grudge she had 4 years ago then. 

its funny that we've gone round about to the theory that she may not be in love with me. Things like security and "good overall package" could drive her to stay with me. I had this theory literally 1 month after her "need space" talk. I told the counselor about this theory, she didnt think much of it one way or another. I told my wife this theory as well. I told her that on paper I make sense to the outside world. Good job, good $, in shape, sense of humor, popular, smart, etc. But the problem is that you love who you love. So to the third party, i would appear to be the right choice for her or any woman. but that doesnt mean she REALLY loves me. In theory her true soul mate could be a garbage truck driver earning 50k per year who likes nascar and dirtbikes. Her brain would say no thanks, but her heart may love him for xyz reasons. If this theory is indeed the case, then no matter what I do, she will never love me like she wants to love someone or like I want to be loved. No matter how much I change and or improve. 

My wife's response to this was "not the case at all". She reminded me that she seeked me out, physically 10 years ago. She dated me when i had a POS car. She dated me through turbulent times early in relationship (we both couldnt decide between exes or each other for first 8-9 months or so). So i took her word for it, but had to offer a challenge to it. My response to her was that while I didnt have much at the time (making 25k per year and POS car), I knew that I was pursuing a graduate degree and highly motivated. She said that my motivation was something she was attracted to, but that was only in addition to my looks, my humor, my intelligence, family presence etc..

So i truly believe it started the right way. True love or something. I just wonder if she is no longer in love with me, what slipped? I am in as good of shape. I have my hair. I make more money than our friends. I can still get a group cracking up. I'm still me. So if she doesnt love me, what changed?

So in an attempt at full transparency to you guys, this is why I really struggle to think she doesnt love me. Or she was full of **** when she seeked me out and held on to me for the first 5 years of our marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

*Hmmmmmm*

Boston,
WRT your in laws, I am only making a statistical observation, not stating a fact. It is possible that he has shut down in that area, or he is shy. Or it might be that she is 'managing the optics' and is just a big tease in public who doesn't follow through in private.




BostonBruins32 said:


> She actually wants to, she seems randy. He is 100% the LD in their situation. He has zero interest. She takes good care of him. He does more for her but he also never asks for things from her. I'm sorta the same way. I don't ask for favors. I don't ask my wife for help . She's willing if I ask but I really never do. She does things like makes food I love even if not her fave. She picks up things like a sweater or a lure or a treat for me if she's out shopping or doing stuff for herself. Come to think of it as I'm typing this , I can't think of things I ask of her or even signal to her tgat I want. Hmm
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Hi Boston, I have been reading your thread daily, just felt like I didn't have anything to add to the discussion. But tonight I do.

It's not in response to anything specific you've written, or anyone else. I just think it might be a good idea for you.

I've been in and out of therapy for years now. One of the things I always do is take stock. Where was I then, where am I now, how did I get here, what's working, what's not, where do I need to go?

This thread is a month old. You came to TAM back in November. I won't go into those deleted threads. You deleted them for a reason.

But taking just this thread, you came in search of reasons why and KD spouse might be LD and what could you do about it.

What knowledge have you gained?
Do you feel you have a better understanding, even if it's an understanding you don't like?
Do you feel like what you have gained being here, has helped you?

You don't have to answer in this thread but I hope you do.

People come here looking for answers. They almost always get what I consider to be great advice. Sometimes, just getting it all out is extremely cathartic. This place has helped me enormously!

One of the reasons why I felt like you should do this is because of something I see frequently. Some people come here and they get stuck. They get stuck in the blame game, they get stuck in understanding, they get stuck in catharsis. It's not healthy for them. I don't want to see that happen to you. Lots of times it's easier to stay stuck then it is to make a move, or a decision. Not that I'm suggesting it's time for you to do either. But when you practice growth as a way of life, you have to stop, take stock, then make plans.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
This is not about resentment. She would have played that card very hard in therapy if it was in her hand. 

I have a suggestion. Get a VaR and record your interactions with her for a few days/a week. And then listen to the recordings. 

I believe you have a strong allergy to tension and she craves it like a drug. M2 is like that. And I am like you with one difference. When M2 needs tension and creates conflict by being a bltch for no reason, she gets a 180 for as long as she needs it. 

When she asked for some 'space' a few years ago I just said 'ok' and scheduled 3 friends and family trips over the next 4-5 weekends. The best thing about that was she didn't say she missed me until the last night of the last trip. And when she did I simply responded with 'good'. Not a angry or vindictive good. A pleased 'good'. 

When I got home I thanked her for not saying she missed me, until she actually did. 

She needs to know I love her and loves to be certain that I don't need her. And that's ok. 

A lawyer would cringe at this one but, when she had fallen in love with the OM at work (which I was clueless about), she totally melted down on me one night. Two or three straight hours of everything bad that had happened between us. How she always felt 'less than' around my family because they were all so smart. 

I sat on the floor in the bedroom and listened, lights out for this whole long borderline crying vent. Woke up in the morning and she said we needed to be apart. 

I said I was sorry she was so sad, and that she had so many unpleasant memories. Told her I was grateful for our time together. And then I said: what would make this easiest for you? Would you like me to get an apartment or would you prefer to get one. This wasn't a game, or a tactic. I would have supported either. I told her that if she wanted an apartment I would help her find one. And I meant it. 

She said she wasn't sure she could sleep with me. I just shrugged. An hour later she came and straddled me on the lounge chair and when I responded she got angry. And that was when I gave her some edge. 

Don't you ever, ever come on to me and then get angry when I respond. What the hell is wrong with you? At first she tried to deny it but realizing that she was just digging a deeper hole she apologized. And then said, you're right that wasn't fair. If you want to, we can. I just looked at her in disbelief and shook my head. 

There's no playbook for this stuff. I start out with patience and empathy. And stick with that until boundaries are getting violated. Once that happens I start to use edge. And I keep cranking out edge until I perceive that M2 has returned to sanity.....

If she can't tolerate the edge she has provoked, she can always leave or ask me to leave. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> not sure what grudge she had 4 years ago then.
> 
> its funny that we've gone round about to the theory that she may not be in love with me. Things like security and "good overall package" could drive her to stay with me. I had this theory literally 1 month after her "need space" talk. I told the counselor about this theory, she didnt think much of it one way or another. I told my wife this theory as well. I told her that on paper I make sense to the outside world. Good job, good $, in shape, sense of humor, popular, smart, etc. But the problem is that you love who you love. So to the third party, i would appear to be the right choice for her or any woman. but that doesnt mean she REALLY loves me. In theory her true soul mate could be a garbage truck driver earning 50k per year who likes nascar and dirtbikes. Her brain would say no thanks, but her heart may love him for xyz reasons. If this theory is indeed the case, then no matter what I do, she will never love me like she wants to love someone or like I want to be loved. No matter how much I change and or improve.
> 
> My wife's response to this was "not the case at all". She reminded me that she seeked me out, physically 10 years ago. She dated me when i had a POS car. She dated me through turbulent times early in relationship (we both couldnt decide between exes or each other for first 8-9 months or so). So i took her word for it, but had to offer a challenge to it. My response to her was that while I didnt have much at the time (making 25k per year and POS car), I knew that I was pursuing a graduate degree and highly motivated. She said that my motivation was something she was attracted to, but that was only in addition to my looks, my humor, my intelligence, family presence etc..
> 
> So i truly believe it started the right way. True love or something. I just wonder if she is no longer in love with me, what slipped? I am in as good of shape. I have my hair. I make more money than our friends. I can still get a group cracking up. I'm still me. So if she doesnt love me, what changed?
> 
> So in an attempt at full transparency to you guys, this is why I really struggle to think she doesnt love me. Or she was full of **** when she seeked me out and held on to me for the first 5 years of our marriage.


----------



## jld

Edge is good, MEM.


----------



## Lyris

I wonder if it's the person most able to tolerate day to day misery who is always going to be in the more powerful position. My husband could live indefinitely being unhappy with me, well maybe not indefinitely, but much longer than I could. 

I can't bear to go more than a few days without his genuine loving, happy attention. I can't compartmentalise my life enough. Unhappiness in my marriage spills over into every area, and when it has been bad it feels like grief, when I look back at happy times. 

He, on the other hand is admirably self-sufficient. At least on the surface. And the surface is quite thick. 

Of course the other aspect is that when we did spend nearly two years apart, before we were married, my life was lots of fun, because I can't tolerate being depressed or undistracted so I go out and find distractions. I'm much better at being single than he is/was. He got more and more depressed, and it was only when it was nearly too late that he decided enough was enough and came to get me back. 

So, anyway, my point is, maybe it's the person who can tolerate discomfort the least who is always going to be the one pushing for change/improvement.


----------



## Anon Pink

Lyris said:


> I wonder if it's the person most able to tolerate day to day misery who is always going to be in the more powerful position. My husband could live indefinitely being unhappy with me, well maybe not indefinitely, but much longer than I could.
> 
> I can't bear to go more than a few days without his genuine loving, happy attention. I can't compartmentalise my life enough. Unhappiness in my marriage spills over into every area, and when it has been bad it feels like grief, when I look back at happy times.
> 
> He, on the other hand is admirably self-sufficient. At least on the surface. And the surface is quite thick.
> 
> Of course the other aspect is that when we did spend nearly two years apart, before we were married, my life was lots of fun, because I can't tolerate being depressed or I distracted so I go out and find distractions. He got more and more depressed, and it was only when it was nearly too late that he decided enough was enough and came to get me back.
> 
> So, anyway, my point is, maybe it's the person who can tolerate discomfort the least who is always going to be the one pushing for change/improvement.


I could not agree more with this! And I hate that it is so damn true.

I guess it goes back to a saying I heard during a training class on addiction. 

"How do you get someone to reach their rock bottom? You pick it up and smack them over the head with it!"


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Hi Boston, I have been reading your thread daily, just felt like I didn't have anything to add to the discussion. But tonight I do.
> 
> It's not in response to anything specific you've written, or anyone else. I just think it might be a good idea for you.
> 
> I've been in and out of therapy for years now. One of the things I always do is take stock. Where was I then, where am I now, how did I get here, what's working, what's not, where do I need to go?
> 
> This thread is a month old. You came to TAM back in November. I won't go into those deleted threads. You deleted them for a reason.
> 
> But taking just this thread, you came in search of reasons why and KD spouse might be LD and what could you do about it.
> 
> What knowledge have you gained? *I have gained that I am crappy at setting boundaries. I am better today than i was yesterday, but I am not fully up to speed yet. I also have learned there is a very real chance that she is not in this for the right reasons. I havent learned if this is true, but rather learned that its a possibility. I've also learned there is no silver bullet to fix this for everyone.*
> Do you feel you have a better understanding, even if it's an understanding you don't like?*I have a better understanding of my side of the issue. My nice guy behavior etc. I do not have any better understanding of the truth behind her actions. I just know thier not ok, which I nkew before.*
> Do you feel like what you have gained being here, has helped you?*Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sometimes it sends me off to feel like sulking. Sometimes it is empowering. Its real opinions, because there are no faces or names here, just words. MMSL helped a lot (and i dont use it word for word) and personal stories of otehrs on here has helped me feel less alone and more capable of moving forward.*
> 
> You don't have to answer in this thread but I hope you do.
> 
> People come here looking for answers. They almost always get what I consider to be great advice. Sometimes, just getting it all out is extremely cathartic. This place has helped me enormously!
> 
> One of the reasons why I felt like you should do this is because of something I see frequently. Some people come here and they get stuck. They get stuck in the blame game, they get stuck in understanding, they get stuck in catharsis. It's not healthy for them. I don't want to see that happen to you. Lots of times it's easier to stay stuck then it is to make a move, or a decision. Not that I'm suggesting it's time for you to do either. But when you practice growth as a way of life, you have to stop, take stock, then make plans.


----------



## naiveonedave

BB - I think you really need to come to grips with this marriage being sexless or D and find a woman who will fool around. You can keep trying, but your resentment and frustration are going to contineu to build until you are past caring.

Also, remember the mmslp rule - always have sex w/your wife if she initiates. I think the cuddling might be her initiating in her own way. If you don't do this, your already have given up.


----------



## john117

Lyris said:


> So, anyway, my point is, maybe it's the person who can tolerate discomfort the least who is always going to be the one pushing for change/improvement.



The corollary to this very true statement is that the person who can tolerate discomfort the most - that is, the LD who can cheerfully ignore the bleak marital reality the most - who is always going to be the one blocking any change/improvement.

Don't ever think that LD's don't know how bleak the marital picture looks because of their actions. The doe eyed new mom types maybe don't know, but anyone past a couple years married is not deaf and blind to what's happening.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BB....

In my case I think it boils down to a few things.....these are not excuses for her behavior but rather what I feel are the root causes.

1. Life... my wife has a very demanding job and she is just done at night. I came back at 8PM and she was sound asleep, she gets up at 3am. So life does get in the way of sex. There literally are only two nights where sex is even likely possible each week

2. Resentment... she brings up in past arguments past stuff. I think she WANTS to let go of past stuff but has a hard time doing so. I think she has a hard time understanding why I can't just let it go and be Mr. Happy inherently so she can fall back into the sexual mode. She hates conflict... she wants to feel closer yet she caused a situation with too much water under the bridge.

3. Sex is low on her list.... perhaps that is my fault to an extent our sex life was always fairly low... making myself more predisposed to PE...there were times I could tell she was disappointed I finished before her. I would try ahead to give her an O orally but I think she wanted the regular O. Towards the end I was also limp mainly sensing her reluctance... a fatal blow to our sex-life.

I think those are the big 3... and they are all hard to overcome.

Add in ADHD and Narcissism and its hard to get sex back.

I would surmise your wife has a big three list and if you honestly look at it perhaps you can at least see what it is you are up against.

What I find looking at my list is its really out of my hands and *all in her court*...so while there might be a resolution assuming she actually meant what she promised it may take the shock of splitting to get her to analyze her own list and find ways herself to deal with life, resentment and sexual issues.

Only advise I can offer is fight the good fight... and then move on. I think it is a tough scenario that can resolve and will most likely will at some point sooner than later...or we will split.


----------



## Blonde

scrolling through posts 1174-1200 or so and I think the fellas are projecting way to much



> And when she says sex isnt important to her, then why does she orgasm when we have it


Sex is an APPETITE. I enjoy O and wish I could O daily or even just push a button and O whenever I want but if I had a good O or two I am FULL and I don't FEEL hungry for 5 days or so. H can persuade me sooner than that but it takes effort and initiating on his part. I am not going to initiate a meal when I am not hungry.

As for the LOVE part. BB feels unloved. I think this is sheer projection and you admitted somewhere back there that you DO NOT LOVE YOUR WIFE. There's the truth- YOU do not love HER. She can feel that. Women are responders. You sow, you reap.

I think you should be initiating. My H doesn't read MMSL but does this at times (randomly during the day with no expectation of immediate sex) and it really gets the coals fired up Sexy Moves: The Ten Second Kiss | Married Man Sex Life


----------



## usmarriedguy

MEM11363 said:


> Love is:
> - The desire to support and care for your partner in a way that helps them be the best version of themselves.
> - The desire to avoid hurting your partner unnecessarily, coupled with the willingness to tell them painful truths when necessary.
> - The willingness to balance their needs with yours, just as you would want them to balance your needs with theirs.



I think that you have a very "rose colored glasses" view of love. 
Yes, in a Disney movie that is the way it works. 

We also have no evidence that Mrs. Boston is doing or not doing those things. 

We do not know how much she is willing to compromise on sex because Boston is not willing to ask her to. He does not want to make her have sex he wants her to want sex on her own. She is not in the mood and does not consider sex to be important because Boston is passive about his needs.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> I think that you have a very "rose colored glasses" view of love.
> Yes, in a Disney movie that is the way it works.
> 
> We also have no evidence that Mrs. Boston is doing or not doing those things.
> 
> We do not know how much she is willing to compromise on sex because Boston is not willing to ask her to. He does not want to make her have sex he wants her to want sex on her own. She is not in the mood and does not consider sex to be important because Boston is passive about his needs.


Yes and no to your last part. I'm not initiating sex because right now I'm all set. I'm trying to work some things out internally and I am not interested in having sex with her. Conveniently slept on couch last night. Not on purpose, just dozed off watching movie. I woke up at 2am and opted to stay there as it was just too relaxing..edit: if she initiates I will take part in it. but right now its likely not a need she has and it is not a need i have. This is obviously not my long term feeling (i hope anyways). 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> I think that you have a very "rose colored glasses" view of love.
> 
> Yes, in a Disney movie that is the way it works.



This is not uncommon. Our own experiences tend to bias our views of other people's issues. We can objectively deduce new findings only if we are willing to consider situations that may not validate our own experiences.

People who have not fully experienced the darkness of human nature in a strained marriage may not fully understand the dynamics involved. That's what separates casual discussion from therapy.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> After reading mem's story, it is a gentle reminder to me that I do not love my wife as much as others love their spouse. I think the last time I felt that serious love was shortly after our daughter was born. I'm not sure it matters how much you love your wife compared to how much others love their wives , but it's interesting to ponder. I'd be lying to you if I told you that I don't sometimes fantasize she would just pull the trigger and leave me. Big hurt, then finally move on.


^^You don't love her

Sex is not "love". Sexing your wife is not "loving" her.

You keep saying and thinking and posting (I could put 100 quotes from you from this thread) that she doesn't LOVE you. She isn't sexing you. 

*YOU* don't love *HER* and you are projecting IMO (as well as setting up a self fulfilling prophecy)

Quit playing games and cut her loose since you don't love her. She is young. She can start again with someone who does. (I'm projecting a bit. I have often regretted not dumping H after his first A 7years in when I was young and could have had some real opportunity for a LIFE with someone else. We had 3 children under 6 though so....)


----------



## BostonBruins32

my feelings of loving her are changing. I'm trying to get blood from a stone. How can I love someone who won't let me into thier soul? How can I love someone who has a shield up because of xyz reasons? How can I love someone who keeps rejecting me?

I loved someone who let me in, so that I could know her enough to love her. As time goes on and she continues to adjust and adress nothing, how can I feel any closeness to her to harvest love?


----------



## john117

In that case if the chemistry is gone see if it can come back or not and act sooner rather than later. Give her one last chance to MC and IC and after that the fat lady will sing.

If she is battle hardened enough to the point that she will sacrifice her marriage and life all because she's unwilling to fulfill her side of the vows and unwilling to address the issues and NOT bringing any other assets, tangible or intangible to the marriage, then that's your answer right there...

The fact that to her avoiding sex is worth blowing up the marriage is far more telling than you putting up with rare sex to keep the marriage intact.

Marriage requires contributions, material and immaterial. If you're happy with the contributions made and received or not will determine the course of action. My bet is some relatively mild personality disorder that should be simple to address assuming she takes the steps to do so. In either case the ball is in her court.


----------



## 1812overture

I sure hope you are finding ways to tell your wife the things you are writing. And, from my perspective, you shouldn't be down. You are making progress -- on yourself and on understanding what might be happening in your marriage and on possible ways to address and fix it. 

You've wrapped a whole lot of things in "love," but the issue that brought here was lack of sex. If you'd been having sex weekly in Sep/Oct/Nov, do you come to TAM? My guess is not. You've "let" the sex thing seep into everything, all the while you wife won't or can't understand that the sex thing seeps into everything. Some of those things may have required addressing, but they may well be unrelated to sex. Now it's all a big jumble.

She's a suburban housewife -- she seeks the things that her peers respect and perhaps envy -- minivan, volunteer at school (still pre-school? I'll bet she's a room parent in kindergarten), house, white picket fence, chair of the local charity ball eventually. Now seeking bigger house (maybe in a better school district, taxes be dammed?), another kid, etc. That's the life so many of us see, and think we want. "Look at them. They are holding hands while walking their daughter to school." The conversation is never "I know they don't seem very affectionate when they are out in public together, but they are wild in bed. I hear she wakes him with a BJ every Friday, and when he sees a porn trick that they haven't tried, she's completely into it. And three times a night isn't rare for him." Nor is it "they sit in the dark after their daughter goes to bed and can talk for hours." So many of us strive to live the images we see, and ignore what might go on behind closed doors. I'm certain your wife never saw her mom grab her dads hand, race to the bedroom, and emerge 90 minutes later. She wants the life she (now) thinks is important, and sex doesn't figure in it.

Your trick is to make sure knows that bigger house and more kids are possible, but that what goes on behind closed doors is even more important than the outward appearances. To quote someone else's thread, you need to figure out to fall in love with her again, and have her do the same. That's not unusual.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> In that case if the chemistry is gone see if it can come back or not and act sooner rather than later. Give her one last chance to MC and IC and after that the fat lady will sing.
> 
> If she is battle hardened enough to the point that she will sacrifice her marriage and life all because she's unwilling to fulfill her side of the vows and unwilling to address the issues and NOT bringing any other assets, tangible or intangible to the marriage, then that's your answer right there...
> 
> The fact that to her avoiding sex is worth blowing up the marriage is far more telling than you putting up with rare sex to keep the marriage intact.
> 
> Marriage requires contributions, material and immaterial. If you're happy with the contributions made and received or not will determine the course of action. My bet is some relatively mild personality disorder that should be simple to address assuming she takes the steps to do so. In either case the ball is in her court.


this is pretty much what i agree with. again, only valuable if I draw a line in the sand and follow through with it. and if she does accept a divorce with an unwillingness to make any changes or address any feelings she has, then I very very clearly have my answer.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I suppose so Blonde but it is a bit of a "catch22".

Some people need physical affection more than others and it is very difficult to feel that deep love without it. 

So it can be that a chain reaction of negativity can begin because of some temporary bump in the road like childbirth or some other real problem that is fixable.

So the one not getting enough loving feels rejected and insecure and that builds some resentment. They often respond by growing colder and more distant (which seems to be the advice many books give them).

or... 

they try to do more things in the hope that it will make their spouse want sex more and are even more crushed when their spouse does not respond with sex.

I feel guilty because I only really feel that deeper level of love within about 1-10 hours of sex. It is not that I do not always love my wife the rest of the week but it just isn't that pixie dust kind of love. 

On the other hand,
LD women I believe will always put service ahead of physical affection on love language. I do not believe my wife is interested in me fawning all over her and I do not believe it will get her in the mood. 

I think that you are reading that he is unhappy with his current situation and translating that into "he does not love her"


----------



## Anon Pink

1812overture said:


> I sure hope you are finding ways to tell your wife the things you are writing. And, from my perspective, you shouldn't be down. You are making progress -- on yourself and on understanding what might be happening in your marriage and on possible ways to address and fix it.
> 
> You've wrapped a whole lot of things in "love," but the issue that brought here was lack of sex. If you'd been having sex weekly in Sep/Oct/Nov, do you come to TAM? My guess is not. You've "let" the sex thing seep into everything, all the while you wife won't or can't understand that the sex thing seeps into everything. Some of those things may have required addressing, but they may well be unrelated to sex. Now it's all a big jumble.
> 
> She's a suburban housewife -- she seeks the things that her peers respect and perhaps envy -- minivan, volunteer at school (still pre-school? I'll bet she's a room parent in kindergarten), house, white picket fence, chair of the local charity ball eventually. Now seeking bigger house (maybe in a better school district, taxes be dammed?), another kid, etc. That's the life so many of us see, and think we want. "Look at them. They are holding hands while walking their daughter to school." The conversation is never "I know they don't seem very affectionate when they are out in public together, but they are wild in bed. I hear she wakes him with a BJ every Friday, and when he sees a porn trick that they haven't tried, she's completely into it. And three times a night isn't rare for him." Nor is it "they sit in the dark after their daughter goes to bed and can talk for hours." So many of us strive to live the images we see, and ignore what might go on behind closed doors. I'm certain your wife never saw her mom grab her dads hand, race to the bedroom, and emerge 90 minutes later. She wants the life she (now) thinks is important, and sex doesn't figure in it.
> 
> Your trick is to make sure knows that bigger house and more kids are possible, but that what goes on behind closed doors is even more important than the outward appearances. To quote someone else's thread, you need to figure out to fall in love with her again, and have her do the same. That's not unusual.


Did I hear my name? 

That was me. Seeing all the happy loving couples during back to school night... My H was home watching TV. But after a while, I started to wonder what made them a happy couple. After I made a mental list of all the reasons it was my husbands entire fault that we were not a happy couple I also realized happy couples have sex! Happy couples have happy sex! Sex they both enjoy!

Thus began my journey to have a great sex life because the one thing I knew without doubt I could have an effect on, was becoming a more sexually aware and competent person!


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> I suppose so Blonde but it is a bit of a "catch22".
> 
> Some people need physical affection more than others and it is very difficult to feel that deep love without it.
> 
> So it can be that a chain reaction of negativity can begin because of some temporary bump in the road like childbirth or some other real problem that is fixable.
> 
> So the one not getting enough loving feels rejected and insecure and that builds some resentment. They often respond by growing colder and more distant (which seems to be the advice many books give them).
> 
> or...
> 
> they try to do more things in the hope that it will make their spouse want sex more and are even more crushed when their spouse does not respond with sex.
> 
> I feel guilty because I only really feel that deeper level of love within about 1-10 hours of sex. It is not that I do not always love my wife the rest of the week but it just isn't that pixie dust kind of love.
> 
> On the other hand,
> LD women I believe will always put service ahead of physical affection on love language. I do not believe my wife is interested in me fawning all over her and I do not believe it will get her in the mood.
> 
> I think that you are reading that he is unhappy with his current situation and translating that into "he does not love her"


exactly. 

and for the record my wife's language of love is something like that acts of service and gifts but i think acts of service first. I knew it before she tested herself, and her results proved it to be that. So if there is any chance of getting my wife in the mood, its by fixing something or picking something up for her at the store or home repair etc. 

mine was physical touch, obviously. in and outside bedroom.


----------



## 1812overture

BB -- 

Go watch the game.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> this is pretty much what i agree with. again, only valuable if I draw a line in the sand and follow through with it. and if she does accept a divorce with an unwillingness to make any changes or address any feelings she has, then I very very clearly have my answer.



That's why I mentioned giving and taking. If the hardship of divorce and single parenting is worth the 'moral victory' of having sex once a month then...

As much as I am against splitting up as my father the Army Major said, 'violence (the consequences of splitting in our case) is the only language some people understand and that is why we fight wars (divorce court etc)'. 

The line in the sand should surround a simple question... Is being a single parent for x years or forever worth it to avoid fulfilling your vows?


----------



## Openminded

BB, the thing is that marriage often changes people. Sometimes for the better and sometimes not. 

I think she does love you. But not in the way you need.


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
All that anger, and so little opportunity to vent it on your real target. 

For someone who holds herself up as a model of a Christian wife, you seem very ready to give his W a free pass for:
- forcing a sexless marriage on him 
- while chasing the golden calf

You know she started this routine immediately after getting her ring and a couple years before the birth of their child. 

Would you condone this behavior if B's wife was your daughter?

Whatever compassion you have seems lost in a sea of resentment. 




Blonde said:


> ^^You don't love her
> 
> Sex is not "love". Sexing your wife is not "loving" her.
> 
> You keep saying and thinking and posting (I could put 100 quotes from you from this thread) that she doesn't LOVE you. She isn't sexing you.
> 
> *YOU* don't love *HER* and you are projecting IMO (as well as setting up a self fulfilling prophecy)
> 
> Quit playing games and cut her loose since you don't love her. She is young. She can start again with someone who does. (I'm projecting a bit. I have often regretted not dumping H after his first A 7years in when I was young and could have had some real opportunity for a LIFE with someone else. We had 3 children under 6 though so....)


----------



## BostonBruins32

Stupid team canada!

anyhow as if valentines day wasnt bad enough. her birthday is Monday meaning she is likely expecting stuff for this weekend.

thoughts?


----------



## naiveonedave

depends - if you want to fill her needs, find a good act of service. If you are done, do nothing and tell her when she asks.....


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Give her a card. Write happy birthday Boston on it. 

Otherwise, non event. The best shot you have at marital repair is to stop providing her false reassurance. 

When M2 wants to believe 'X', she clings to that belief like a cat on a high wire. My experience has been that if I tell her that I believe that: NOT X is fair 9 times and accidentally say that X is ok once. She will hyper focus on the one time I said X is ok. And ignore the other 9 conversations. 

Celebrate her birthday at your peril.....




BostonBruins32 said:


> Stupid team canada!
> 
> anyhow as if valentines day wasnt bad enough. her birthday is Monday meaning she is likely expecting stuff for this weekend.
> 
> thoughts?


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> Give her a card. Write happy birthday Boston on it.
> 
> Otherwise, non event. The best shot you have at marital repair is to stop providing her false reassurance.
> 
> When M2 wants to believe 'X', she clings to that belief like a cat on a high wire. My experience has been that if I tell her that I believe that: NOT X is fair 9 times and accidentally say that X is ok once. She will hyper focus on the one time I said X is ok. And ignore the other 9 conversations.
> 
> Celebrate her birthday at your peril.....


Card and a trip to the Chinese buffet
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> Card and a trip to the Chinese buffet
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Make sure the buffet name includes a number and the word Lucky i.e. Lucky Number Nine Chinese Buffet, a $.99 bargain card, and your kid comes along for maximum effect 

(In my experience these two attributes indicate a bad one - check with Yelp to make sure rating < 3)


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Perfect. Ideally bringing daughter. 

You might get a melt down. Probably not, since wifey doesn't want to open the door to an honest conversation, but anythings possible. 

If she does complain, a fair statement is: I'm not going to pretend that everything's ok. 
-----





BostonBruins32 said:


> Card and a trip to the Chinese buffet
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Card and a trip to the Chinese buffet
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mmmmm, throw in a Lindt milk chocolate bar and this would one happy birthday girl!


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> Mmmmm, throw in a Lindt milk chocolate bar and this would one happy birthday girl!



Lindt is pretty good... I was thinking more in the order of chocolate M&M's for Mrs. BB.


----------



## john117

By the way, do a Google Images search for "funny Chinese buffet names"... A few are quite apropos for disgruntled spouses....

This one is hard to pass tho... The LD Buffet in Aurora, CO. did get 2 stars on Yelp. Alas it is closed otherwise it would be worth the drive...

View attachment 17290


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Take her here...I ate here its true should remind her of the marriage

"There are finger prints all over the inside of the windows for a reason, it's the souls of people trying to escape! 
Firstly this is an Asian buffet, you know the usual, with sushi on the side.
We went there tonight for the first time and it was pretty awful.
The sweet and sour chicken was rock hard as was the orange chicken 
( you could kill someone with that stuff if you threw it), the beef was super chewy and the mussels tasted too fishy. The spring rolls were all cabbage and tasted of nothing. The food had obviously sat out too long and what was put out fresh was still not good. It seemed like they are doing everything as cheap as they can and can not be bothered to replace the food when it drys out. The sushi smelled bad.
( BRB off to vomit).... ( OK I am back).
The desserts were dreadful, only safe thing was the jello. They had some pink cake thing that tasted like chemicals and some chocolate cake that was really bitter. Also the place stank of cleaning products. The people behind us were complaining about the food especially the too fishy fish ( bad sign) and when we left the few people that were eating were pulling faces at the food. 
What the hell?! Is it that hard to make bad buffet food these days? Some places get it soo right and other places get it horribly wrong. 
Gawd, it was one of the worst buffet places I have ever been too.
If there was a Zombie attack and food was scarce I would still not come here to eat!
AVOID it !!! Blech!"


----------



## MEM2020

*Priceless*

ROTFL John. 

QUOTE=john117;7269650]By the way, do a Google Images search for "funny Chinese buffet names"... A few are quite apropos for disgruntled spouses....

This one is hard to pass tho... The LD Buffet in Aurora, CO. did get 2 stars on Yelp. Alas it is closed otherwise it would be worth the drive...

View attachment 17290
[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

Since this is SIM, I'm batting .000 for sex after a buffet dinner going back to the late 1980's when decent quality Asian buffets began appearing. My wife tends to over eat there (how someone 130 lb. can consume 5-6 plates of food is beyond me) then she promptly falls asleep on the way home. 

So perhaps this is a self fulfilling prophecy after all. If the food is good you'll be stuffed silly and if it isn't you'll be sick to your stomach, avoiding coital duty in either case.


----------



## john117

FrenchFry said:


> Funnily enough, that buffet started out as delicious enough for the price but slowly got more and more appalling in quality after the years and more expensive.



You mean like the marriages of some of us?

(Am I on a roll tonight or what?)


----------



## BostonBruins32

John will be here all night. try the fish.


----------



## BostonBruins32

another night on the couch. after feeling exhausted on the couch, I made my way to bed last night, she followed. she dozed off after about 20 mins. I remained there looking at the ceiling. got up, went to couch. watched 10 mins of tv and dozed off.

very good night of sleep. rinse and repeat tonight. except i think that its not good for the couch long term, so i have to come up with option B.


----------



## john117

BB, I have just diagnosed you over the interwebs with "restless hands syndrome". That is, at night your hands get all restless and wander over the bed. Since you value your partner's sleep I will PM you a prescription for a separate bedroom. Start modestly then move more of your stuff to the new room making it a man-cave... 

What's that? You don't have "restless hands syndrome"? Well, you can always fake the symptoms and give yourself the reason to move to the man-cave i.e. option B.


----------



## BostonBruins32

meant to post this yesterday, sorry for the TMI portion.

I got home from work yesterday and we were getting ready to go out to pick some things up. She was in the bathroom, going number 1. She noticed some discharge and asked me to come in. Shes like "i dont want to gross you out, but i noticed this.. i wonder why". I said "hmm.. I'm not quite sure. did you touch yourself down there, like masturbate?" I said it in non sexual plain jane tone. She was like "NO! ugh." I said "ok, well i'm just trying to help you diagnose here". Shes like "I know. and A. I dont think I'm due for my period.. and B. I dont masturbate. ugh."

She was like blown away that I would even consider she masturbated. Newsflash honey, people masturbate. Men and women. THe best part is I bet she doesnt think I do. haha.

Anyways, what do you all make of her total rejection of the thoguht of masturbating? sorry for TMI, but its in line with this sexless issue i think


----------



## john117

Could it be a plain ole' UTI?

Her reaction was not surprising in either way.


----------



## BostonBruins32

shes ovulating, so I tihnk it was that. Shes mentioned this before during ovulation a while back. I think she just forgot.


----------



## usmarriedguy

No masturbation = low sex drive. 
I suppose that it can also be a hang-up that is taught to people. morally wrong, etc., some people seem to find the idea disturbing. 

I think you should believe her when she said that she can go for months without.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> my feelings of loving her are changing. I'm trying to get blood from a stone. How can I love someone who won't let me into thier soul? How can I love someone who has a shield up because of xyz reasons? How can I love someone who keeps rejecting me?
> 
> I loved someone who let me in, so that I could know her enough to love her. As time goes on and she continues to adjust and adress nothing, how can I feel any closeness to her to harvest love?


Do this before lurching toward D. It will help both of you to open up to each other communication wise:
Marriage Help Program For Couples

ISTM that you consistently interpret a lack of sexing you as a lack of LOVE for you. You can sex with a prostitute, she was sexed by an abuser. Sex is *NOT* love! Here is a Bible definition of love (which is read during most church weddings):




> Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
> 
> 4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Cor 13



And there's also this:



> Love Your Enemies
> 
> 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[g] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[h] 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren_ only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors[j] do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matt 5_


_

"Love" based on what one gets out a relationship is not really love IMO and IJO (in Jesus opinion ). 

I'll be the first to tell you that sex is an entitlement of M and sexless breaks the vows and is grounds for divorce. However you are wrong to interpret a lack of sexing you as a lack of loving you. Sex is NOT love!_


----------



## usmarriedguy

No sex is not love but realistically people do not love their enemies and rightly expect their spouses to give them physical affection. 

I do not think that many of us will achieve Jesus's standards. Personally I do not think that it is a good idea to love someone who abuses you or who wants to kill you.


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> Blonde,
> All that anger, and so little opportunity to vent it on your real target.


Your harsh and wrong judgement toward me are troubling... (I can let it roll off like water off a duck's back but I always wonder when I see such behavior if it is used at home with W and K)

I don't feel the least bit angry or resentful, Mem. Not even a bit. I'm quite happy and content even though in my M of 31 y there is chronic "emotional starvation". IMO a healthy M should have emotional intimacy (the ability to share deep feelings, dreams, vulnerabilities). It's rare though, very rare IMO. 

Was that you that noted that BB is here only because of sexlessness? I observe that men are not too keen to work on a M unless there is sexlessness. My friend Bagdon is out of here now that the sex issue is resolved.

I have reconciled to myself that H and perhaps men in general are stuck at "alone" emotionally and prefer it that way even though the Bible says "it is *not good *for man to be alone" (and I don't think this "loneliness" is about sex. I think it is about emotions)


----------



## Blonde

usmarriedguy said:


> I do not think that many of us will achieve Jesus's standards. Personally I do not think that it is a good idea to love someone who abuses you or who wants to kill you.


Jesus did it.

I think it's OK to love someone from a distance and with "tough love" if they are destructive. One crucifixion is enough for all.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> Your harsh and wrong judgement toward me are troubling... (I can let it roll off like water off a duck's back but I always wonder when I see such behavior if it is used at home with W and K)
> 
> I don't feel the least bit angry or resentful, Mem. Not even a bit. I'm quite happy and content even though *in my M of 31 y there is chronic "emotional starvation". IMO a healthy M should have emotional intimacy (the ability to share deep feelings, dreams, vulnerabilities).* It's rare though, very rare IMO.
> 
> Was that you that noted that BB is here only because of sexlessness? I observe that *men are not too keen to work on a M unless there is sexlessness. *My friend Bagdon is out of here now that the sex issue is resolved.


:iagree:


----------



## usmarriedguy

Blonde said:


> Jesus did it.
> 
> I think it's OK to love someone from a distance and with "tough love" if they are destructive. One crucifixion is enough for all.


Well like I said Jesus set a standard that very few people are actually able to follow. 

"Tough love" is simply an ideological form of love. 

This only occurs when we say we love someone who we do not actually love because Jesus said that is what we are supposed to do. We do not actually "love" them. We simply have compassion for them because we are all God's children. 

That is much different than how two people who share intimacy can love each other.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Blonde said:


> I have reconciled to myself that H and perhaps men in general are stuck at "alone" emotionally and prefer it that way even though the Bible says "it is *not good *for man to be alone" (and I don't think this "loneliness" is about sex. I think it is about emotions)


I think this applies equally to both men and women.


----------



## Blonde

We can hate someone's behavior and still love them. BTDT and learned the distinction in IC. 1 Cor 13 are all about MY attitude and behavior not the other person's performance.

Marriage is a crucible/a furnace which exposes areas needing personal growth. A painful M can be leveraged for personal growth as well a breaking generational curses (my children have mostly made very good M matches and have not had the addiction/self-medication issues which H and I had at their age)


----------



## Blonde

usmarriedguy said:


> I think this applies equally to both men and women.


Except that biblically, the first male is the only one who knew the experience of being *completely alone.* That is when God said "it is not good for the man to be alone" and the woman was formed for companionship. The woman, from creation onward, has always been in relationship. 

ISTM that tendency (of men toward being alone and women being relationship oriented) has passed down and is common to mankind. 

Not sure theology musings are useful for OP so
/tangent


----------



## usmarriedguy

I think that it is commendable that you have resigned yourself to be a good Christian. 

For me I do not believe that it is very likely that I will get a second life where everything will be perfect as a reward for my suffering in the current life.

Given the likeliness that I will only have 75 or so years to experience I have a fairly limited toleration for unnecessarily poor conditions.

I think that this forum is very good evidence that men do not seek to be alone.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Well before I get to the point of the "splitting talk" I read another post where the H cooked the wife a nice breakfast... and that helped.

I can cook and decided to try once more for a period of time probably 30 days until I see my doctor in March....

So far so good... I made dinner last night and breakfast this morning and my wife responded with a big unprompted hug and sincere thank you. That may seem like a little thing but for her its a huge step forward as that is out of her character.

I am not going overboard but I am giving her a glimpse of what can be without talking about it and just out of the blue. I have been under the sexless baseline behavior for months and had not talked to her in about a year about the issue. So we will see where this goes on thing is for sure it will now go one of two ways from this point forward.

I am taking my sisters advice of not being resentful... and I will offer my wife one last chance to meet me in a good marriage. Then if needed we will have the splitting talk.

To my surprise I reacted well to her hug and very manly sounding and it flowed well... with a confidence in my reaction.

Lots has led up to this point... she has made changes along the way... I have a feeling we are on track with all we have been through.

It really is all in your mind... to what the world holds.


----------



## Blonde

I'm a big believer that heaven can be enjoyed here and now as I access peace that passes understanding (and does not depend on circumstances). Likewise hell is here and now- a condition of our own creation. 



> “It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.” -CS Lewis


^^USM, "resigning myself" is not an accurate description  ^^

My children have an expression "first world problem". Sexlessness robbing peace= first world problem.

M should not be "hell on earth" but changing myself unilaterally can change the M equation to make the atmosphere more tolerable and even pleasant.


----------



## john117

Your wife must be easy to please . My wife's culture contains little in terms of pleasantries so getting a hug and thank you for anything short of resurrecting her grandfather from beyond would be rather unusual.

We are talking about a culture where her kids have to prompt her to say thank you to anyone.. It's cultural more than personal, I know many people from her birth country and they are totally like her or worse, put up a fake pleasantries facade that is even more annoying.

The things we do for love :rofl:


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
It's emotionally manipulative to play word games. 

So let's start with that. You consistently use the term 'sexing' which makes it seem like some robotic act. 

You imply it's the men who don't want to work on the marriage, when it's B's wife who bailed on counseling. 

And you skip over some fairly obvious stuff. Lashing out at your spouse on a regular basis isn't a sign of being 'in love'.







Blonde said:


> Your harsh and wrong judgement toward me are troubling... (I can let it roll off like water off a duck's back but I always wonder when I see such behavior if it is used at home with W and K)
> 
> I don't feel the least bit angry or resentful, Mem. Not even a bit. I'm quite happy and content even though in my M of 31 y there is chronic "emotional starvation". IMO a healthy M should have emotional intimacy (the ability to share deep feelings, dreams, vulnerabilities). It's rare though, very rare IMO.
> 
> Was that you that noted that BB is here only because of sexlessness? I observe that men are not too keen to work on a M unless there is sexlessness. My friend Bagdon is out of here now that the sex issue is resolved.
> 
> I have reconciled to myself that H and perhaps men in general are stuck at "alone" emotionally and prefer it that way even though the Bible says "it is *not good *for man to be alone" (and I don't think this "loneliness" is about sex. I think it is about emotions)


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Lashing out at your spouse on a regular basis isn't a sign of being 'in love'.



When you have exhausted all other venues or approaches and the spouse is not "biting" then leashing out is preferred to taking the passive aggressive option or ignoring the issue altogether.

I'm in love with a ghost that may or may not be there any more. If I didn't love said ghost I would not be constantly pushing her towards a resolution. 

Tough Love etc etc.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> meant to post this yesterday, sorry for the TMI portion.
> 
> I got home from work yesterday and we were getting ready to go out to pick some things up. She was in the bathroom, going number 1. She noticed some discharge and asked me to come in. Shes like "i dont want to gross you out, but i noticed this.. i wonder why". I said "hmm.. I'm not quite sure. did you touch yourself down there, like masturbate?" I said it in non sexual plain jane tone. She was like "NO! ugh." I said "ok, well i'm just trying to help you diagnose here". Shes like "I know. and A. I dont think I'm due for my period.. and B. I dont masturbate. ugh."
> 
> She was like blown away that I would even consider she masturbated. Newsflash honey, people masturbate. Men and women. THe best part is I bet she doesnt think I do. haha.
> 
> Anyways, what do you all make of her total rejection of the thoguht of masturbating? sorry for TMI, but its in line with this sexless issue i think


WTF! Is she 12 or something? How does a woman reach her age and NOT know the difference between regular discharge, ovulation discharge, and problematic discharge?

She calls you into the bathroom to see her wet panties....hmmmm could that have been an award winning passive approach to sex?

She's close to ovulating... Her once a month time is approaching. Decisions decisions....

She doesn't masturbate? I call bull! I also think, Boston, you missed a golden opportunity to explain something about healthy sexuality and an opportunity to asset what a healthy sense of sexuality looks like. Maybe next month it will happen again?

Or you could be hyper vigilant for tonight's award winning passive approach to sex initiation and tell her to masturbate for you. And when she says it's gross, correct her misinformed idea. When she says she's embarrassed, remind her you watched her give birth. And when she says she doesn't do that, tell her tonight she will. And when she says she doesn't know what to do, tell her to follow your instructions...


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> WTF! Is she 12 or something? How does a woman reach her age and NOT know the difference between regular discharge, ovulation discharge, and problematic discharge?
> 
> She calls you into the bathroom to see her wet panties....hmmmm could that have been an award winning passive approach to sex?
> 
> She's close to ovulating... Her once a month time is approaching. Decisions decisions....
> 
> She doesn't masturbate? I call bull! I also think, Boston, you missed a golden opportunity to explain something about healthy sexuality and an opportunity to asset what a healthy sense of sexuality looks like. Maybe next month it will happen again?
> 
> Or you could be hyper vigilant for tonight's award winning passive approach to sex initiation and tell her to masturbate for you. And when she says it's gross, correct her misinformed idea. When she says she's embarrassed, remind her you watched her give birth. And when she says she doesn't do that, tell her tonight she will. And when she says she doesn't know what to do, tell her to follow your instructions...


so when she says "i dont masturbate" you dont believe her?

i actually do. she has been "grossed" out by that as long as I can remember. I could be way off, but I have always thought she didnt.

I cant decide if it would be good or bad for her to say she does masturbate. It would mean shes clearly not into me, vs clearly not into sex alone. ouch.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> so when she says "i dont masturbate" you dont believe her?
> 
> i actually do. she has been "grossed" out by that as long as I can remember. I could be way off, but I have always thought she didnt.
> 
> I cant decide if it would be good or bad for her to say she does masturbate. It would mean shes clearly not into me, vs clearly not into sex alone. ouch.


BB...
You have to realize the audience of females here they have their own reality and cannot believe other women don't masturbate regularly... some have more on their mind than that.

I am fairly certain my wife does not masturbate except for the very rare times when asleep I can feel the bed jiggle a bit for a while so she has to be rubbing something unconsciously. I would be shocked if she ever does it while awake to herself. Even when we had sex I would try to get her to touch herself she was very apathetic in doing so.

Some women simply don't need/want sex or need perfection to desire it and I believe we are married to two of them. That being said I'm sure in the right circumstance they both actually like it just not very frequently and certainly not when feeling forced into it or shamed into it.

I think that's why they can say with a straight face "I like sex" that does not mean they like it frequently..because to them its likely work and not worth their effort (that of course has been proven untrue here at TAM..there always is a negative effect). They can also say they love you as they do not need sex to love.

Just like I can say I like camping..I do and we do it maybe once a year. Why because its too much work and I don't NEED to camp. But if someone asks sure "I like camping".

The goal is working together and finding that balance and then keeping it there.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> so when she says "i dont masturbate" you dont believe her?
> 
> i actually do. she has been "grossed" out by that as long as I can remember. I could be way off, but I have always thought she didnt.
> 
> I cant decide if it would be good or bad for her to say she does masturbate. It would mean shes clearly not into me, vs clearly not into sex alone. ouch.


Not at all. On both counts.

She's not honest enough to admit she masturbates. That's IMO and I firmly believe it!

If she masturbates, yet won't admit it, she would also have to admit she has a sex drive. If she admits she has a sex drive, then she would also have to admit that your needs are similar to her needs and she can no longer with hold to manipulate you into doing her bidding, as her mother before her has done.

It could also mean she would have to admit she does have sexual needs, but doesn't know how to meet them, IOW, she's bad at masturbating.

She is a CSA survivor. She has turned away from THAT part of who she is, yet those needs remain. She denies, she hides, she manipulates. Before marriage, she could hide behind the persona of being a sexually liberated woman. But now the truth is out. She can't hide behind that camouflage anymore so she has to come up with something else. You! It's your fault, you do things that annoy her or don't do things she wants!

Oh snap, he fixed those! Now what? I know, I'll play the part of the sexually inexperienced teenager wondering what that goo is in my panties!

It's not you, or maybe not all you. 

I say again, she needs therapy!

"For your birthday, I booked a massage following your appointment with a therapist who will help you figure out why you manipulated me into thinking you were a highly charged sexual being when the truth is, you don't masturbate, therefor you are not a highly charged sexual being and I want you to stop lying to me! Happy birthday!"


----------



## BostonBruins32

yeah could be. As this thread has developed, I'm realizing that sexless brought me here, but concerns about her inner love feelings have now surfaced.

Meaning that if God would scream down "hey *******, she does love you stop it" then I think I would be able to gain some comfort back. I would still feel a tad ripped off with regards to the sex, but the lack of empathy with sex or unwillingness to address it has caused me to question the whole marriage. Its about WAY more than sex at this point


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> yeah could be. As this thread has developed, I'm realizing that sexless brought me here, but concerns about her inner love feelings have now surfaced.
> 
> Meaning that if God would scream down "hey *******, she does love you stop it" then I think I would be able to gain some comfort back. I would still feel a tad ripped off with regards to the sex, but the lack of empathy with sex or unwillingness to address it has caused me to question the whole marriage. Its about WAY more than sex at this point



I will tell you your wife loves you (and holds out hope of a better marriage)...otherwise *she would be gone.*

My wife stated this to me years ago... another truth, albeit each spouse on the other end has a right to question and say WTF... its not something you control.


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> Or you could be hyper vigilant for tonight's award winning passive approach to sex initiation and tell her to masturbate for you. And when she says it's gross, correct her misinformed idea. When she says she's embarrassed, remind her you watched her give birth. And when she says she doesn't do that, tell her tonight she will. And when she says she doesn't know what to do, tell her to follow your instructions...


This is really good. BB, do what AP says here!


----------



## usmarriedguy

Anon Pink said:


> Not at all. On both counts.
> 
> She's not honest enough to admit she masturbates. That's IMO and I firmly believe it!
> 
> If she masturbates, yet won't admit it,



While I tend to agree with you on a lot of stuff this questionable.

Some people who have posted on SIM are disgusted by the idea or find it morally objectionable. 

If she truly has never masturbated it would certainly indicate a low drive and some hang ups about sexuality.


----------



## jld

AP, do you have a particular reason for thinking she does? Something BB has said about her?


----------



## usmarriedguy

Blonde said:


> I'm a big believer that heaven can be enjoyed here and now as I access peace that passes understanding *(and does not depend on circumstances*). Likewise hell is here and now- a condition of our own creation.
> 
> 
> 
> ^^USM, "resigning myself" is not an accurate description  ^^
> 
> My children have an expression "first world problem". Sexlessness robbing peace= first world problem.
> 
> M should not be "hell on earth" but changing myself unilaterally can *change the M equation to make the atmosphere more tolerable* and even pleasant.


You may not like my word choice but your own words indicate that you are resigned to tolerate less than ideal conditions.

I would not say that is all bad. Life is not perfect. Many times we have no choice in the matter and must resign ourselves to the reality of less than ideal conditions. 

I agree with C.S. Lewis,
Why would we want to go on making mud pies in a slum when we have a better choice?


----------



## MEM2020

This is why T2 is never going to solve his puzzle. 

A spouse doesn't need to 'love' you to stay. They merely need to 'love what you provide'. 

Those two things are completely different. 

T2,
Your W won't stop texting the other man because she doesn't care about how you feel. 





Trying2figureitout said:


> I will tell you your wife loves you (and holds out hope of a better marriage)...otherwise *she would be gone.*
> 
> My wife stated this to me years ago... another truth, albeit each spouse on the other end has a right to question and say WTF... its not something you control.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Anon Pink said:


> Or you could be hyper vigilant for tonight's award winning passive approach to sex initiation and tell her to masturbate for you. And when she says it's gross, correct her misinformed idea. When she says she's embarrassed, remind her you watched her give birth. And when she says she doesn't do that, tell her tonight she will. And when she says she doesn't know what to do, tell her to follow your instructions...


I do find this interesting. I guess it is a fairly tame way to introduce some dom/sub thing into the sex.

She would either find it interesting or think that Boston is becoming unhinged.

I guess my tendency would be to ask first if she would be interested in that sort of thing but then again maybe merely asking would ruin the effect. 

What is the rule on that Anon, can he ask her if she needs that sort of thing before trying it?


----------



## Anon Pink

usmarriedguy said:


> I do find this interesting. I guess it is a fairly tame way to introduce some dom/sub thing into the sex.
> 
> She would either find it interesting or think that Boston is becoming unhinged.
> 
> I guess my tendency would be to ask first if she would be interested in that sort of thing but then again maybe merely asking would ruin the effect.
> 
> What is the rule on that Anon, can he ask her if she needs that sort of thing before trying it?


:rofl: there is no rule!

US, I think when you're trying to fix a broken relationship with a person who, for any number of reasons and for the moment they are inconsequential, refuses to be honest with themselves and with you, your ONLY option is to suck up your fear and assert yourself. You can call it dominance, you can also call it playing her game. She pretends she doesn't have a sex drive or doesn't need sex and she also pretend everything is just peachy and life is perfect. 

Meanwhile Boston is dying inside...tell me she doesn't know this!

So follow my instructions for two reasons.

1. If she secretly digs more dominant men, you just scored major brownies points.

2. Whether it works or not and especially if it doesn't work, Boston has just drawn a line. No more pretending our sex life is fine. Because what I just asked of you wasn't going to harm you. Yet you got your panties in a bunch and now think I'm a pervert! Well I'm not sweetheart! I'm a man who likes sex married to a woman who made me think she also liked sex but now she doesn't and I'm supposed to be okay with that. Well I'm not. This isn't going away and we are not fine.

But, I am projecting here. Sorry BB. Not a good day here either...


----------



## usmarriedguy

Fair enough, while I am not so sure about the actual percentage of women who would go for this (my guess is less than 25%)

This seems to me to be a fairly good way to try. And since her libido is a problem it seems worthwhile to see if there is something missing for her that she can't talk about or does not fully understand. 

So say he gives it his best effort and tries to be genuine as possible. 

At what point would he call it off?

"And when she says she doesn't do that, tell her tonight she will."

How does the game go here when she says no way in hell, if that is what you want you need to see a psychiatrist? 

My guess: 
Oh sorry dear, my bad. I have been doing some research on sexual dysfunction and read that some women prefer to be submissive.

One other thought on the subject:
Does she read these romance novels that tend to be geared toward the submissive?


----------



## Anon Pink

usmarriedguy said:


> Fair enough, while I am not so sure about the actual percentage of women who would go for this (my guess is less than 25%)
> 
> This seems to me to be a fairly good way to try. And since her libido is a problem it seems worthwhile to see if there is something missing for her that she can't talk about or does not fully understand.
> 
> So say he gives it his best effort and tries to be genuine as possible.
> 
> At what point would he call it off?
> 
> "And when she says she doesn't do that, tell her tonight she will."
> 
> How does the game go here when she says no way in hell, if that is what you want you need to see a psychiatrist?
> 
> My guess:
> Oh sorry dear, my bad. I have been doing some research on sexual dysfunction and read that some women prefer to be submissive.
> 
> One other thought on the subject:
> Does she read these romance novels that tend to be geared toward the submissive?


I don't know if she reads trashy erotica or even trashier romance? Maybe, maybe not... Worth a shot...

If she says, no way in hell, you need a psychiatrist. Boston's reply could be yours. It is very non threatening. Or it could be what I already posted. "I'm a man who likes sex who thought he married a woman who also likes sex, but now she doesn't and expects me to be okay with that. Well I'm not." 

Stale mate! 

Or, he follows that up with another boundary. I am not okay with this! We either work on fixing it or we work on deciding if this marriage can meet BOTH of our needs.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Your W won't stop texting the other man because she doesn't care about how you feel.



The corollary to the above is that Mrs T2 will not likely advance her entry level EA beyond texting while she's married, and T2 will not consider divorce. 

The perfect Mexican Standoff if I ever saw one between the T2's and SMS guy.

T2 is waiting for Mrs T2 to PA or find her mojo.

Mrs T2 is waiting for T2 to PA or divorce 

Mr SMS is waiting for either one to move.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> This is why T2 is never going to solve his puzzle.
> 
> A spouse doesn't need to 'love' you to stay. They merely need to 'love what you provide'.
> 
> Those two things are completely different.
> 
> T2,
> Your W won't stop texting the other man because she doesn't care about how you feel.


Perhaps and the puzzle will solve when she decides to let it solve, it really is out of my hands until I decide to bring up the discussion about splitting.

As for the texting that to me is a non-issue at this point like my porn use.


----------



## john117

Not quite the same - porn has no path to a real relationship while texting is halfway there.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> Not quite the same - porn has no path to a real relationship while texting is halfway there.


Some people like to text and need that social interaction...if it wasn't that it would be FB messages which I don't track at all. She communicates with a lot of people.Many are men. She has cut back on it significantly and is spending much more time at home rather than going out and invites me always top go out with her when she does get invited. I think she does realize she let it get to familiar and herself made changes. People do learn.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> Perhaps and the puzzle will solve when she decides to let it solve, it really is out of my hands until I decide to bring up the discussion about splitting.
> 
> As for the texting that to me is a non-issue at this point like my porn use.


At this point why don't you both just agree to have affairs? What's the use in staying monogamous if neither of you will budge from your stand off position of refusing the other. You can't possibly still love her after all this? It's just a habit to you now.


----------



## Lyris

Even if she does love you, it's not in a way that does you any good. Because she doesn't care if you're happy, or she cares less about that than ensuring she never feels even a small level of discomfort.

What's the point of that kind of love? A vague kind of warm feeling? 

And I'd totally believe she never masturbates. I hardly ever do any more, don't feel the need at all. Although obviously, I have sex several times a week, but if for some reason I don't, if my husband is away or sick or something, I don't really bother.


----------



## MEM2020

AP,
T2 doesn't believe in surveillance because - he doesn't want to know what wifey is doing. And without surveillance he has no way of knowing what she does during her lunch hour, her long gym sessions, etc. 

Here's what I know. A woman like T2's wife who is/was working out 2 hours a day and has a LOT of male friends, isn't working that hard solely to receive text message compliments. 

Highly fit, highly physical people who flirt, well....

There was some weird dynamic at one point with her favorite male friend, where I got the impression she let T2 know she needed to get permission from her boy friend before she slept with T2. It wasn't quite that black and white, but it sure seemed clear what was what. 

So ummm, they seem to have a 'don't ask don't tell policy'. 

So T2 waits while she entertains herself with more interesting partners. 

Besides, before the shutdown, things weren't ever normal for them. During their 'good times' T2 was getting action once every 3 weeks or so. 

I only point all this out because I consider him a dubious source of 'advice'. 




Anon Pink said:


> At this point why don't you both just agree to have affairs? What's the use in staying monogamous if neither of you will budge from your stand off position of refusing the other. You can't possibly still love her after all this? It's just a habit to you now.


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM11363 said:


> AP,
> T2 doesn't believe in surveillance because - he doesn't want to know what wifey is doing. And without surveillance he has no way of knowing what she does during her lunch hour, her long gym sessions, etc.
> 
> Here's what I know. A woman like T2's wife who is/was working out 2 hours a day and has a LOT of male friends, isn't working that hard solely to receive text message compliments.
> 
> Highly fit, highly physical people who flirt, well....
> 
> There was some weird dynamic at one point with her favorite male friend, where I got the impression she let T2 know she needed to get permission from her boy friend before she slept with T2. It wasn't quite that black and white, but it sure seemed clear what was what.
> 
> So ummm, they seem to have a 'don't ask don't tell policy'.
> 
> So T2 waits while she entertains herself with more interesting partners.
> 
> Besides, before the shutdown, things weren't ever normal for them. During their 'good times' T2 was getting action once every 3 weeks or so.
> 
> I only point all this out because I consider him a dubious source of 'advice'.




Dubious indeed!

My house is nearly unlivable due to smoke damage, and the roof has been burnt off over the kitchen stove for a few years. I believe I am a good cook. I cannot control how my pans overheat! I choose to wait and see. Listen to me so I can teach you how to cook!

T2, what is it you're really afraid of?


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris,
Glad you posted this. I believe that you perceive M2 as a 'frequently high maintenance nightmare'. 

I laughed when I read that as it has some truth to it. 

The best thing about that is her brutally unfiltered communication style. 

I don't think she has masturbated once in the last 5 years. And before that it was very, very rare. And she has no motive to deceive me on this since we don't conflict on frequency.





Lyris said:


> Even if she does love you, it's not in a way that does you any good. Because she doesn't care if you're happy, or she cares less about that than ensuring she never feels even a small level of discomfort.
> 
> What's the point of that kind of love? A vague kind of warm feeling?
> 
> And I'd totally believe she never masturbates. I hardly ever do any more, don't feel the need at all. Although obviously, I have sex several times a week, but if for some reason I don't, if my husband is away or sick or something, I don't really bother.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> At this point why don't you both just agree to have affairs? What's the use in staying monogamous if neither of you will budge from your stand off position of refusing the other. You can't possibly still love her after all this? It's just a habit to you now.


I do love my wife... that will never change. I might dislike her more though as this drags on.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> I do love my wife... that will never change. I might dislike her more though as this drags on.


Your nuts letting her test her boundaries with texting etc. I'm not proud of this but a week or so ago I blew throughy wife's phone. It was a low moment for me but again I'm living in the dark a bit. Everything checked out ok. And yes she could delete etc . So I can only use what u saw , which was essentially nothing to see here. 

If you are riddled with problems with your marriage.. And you sense something, you have to confirm as best you can. I can't believe you let **** knowingly slide.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> I do love my wife... that will never change. I might dislike her more though as this drags on.


How to survive middle school, never allow someone a third opportunity to insult you. At that point, if you don't take substantive action, you may as well paint a target on your back and stick a sign on your ass that says Kick Me!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> Your nuts letting her test her boundaries with texting etc. I'm not proud of this but a week or so ago I blew throughy wife's phone. It was a low moment for me but again I'm living in the dark a bit. Everything checked out ok. And yes she could delete etc . So I can only use what u saw , which was essentially nothing to see here.
> 
> If you are riddled with problems with your marriage.. And you sense something, you have to confirm as best you can. I can't believe you let **** knowingly slide.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think I'm nuts... to me the texting has been dealt with to *my satisfaction*. Also my marriage is not riddled with problems....you checked your wife's phone fine...what did you learn? That you can trust her? That should be the basis.

At some point you trust your spouse, there could be 100+ things that cause the lack of wanting sex or sex with you. that does not mean you have to track down all 100. It is easy to fall into the she is cheating trap some do ... its most likely much more complicated and again it has nothing to do with you. Its her and only she knows why or how she feels about you.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> How to survive middle school, never allow someone a third opportunity to insult you. At that point, if you don't take substantive action, you may as well paint a target on your back and stick a sign on your ass that says Kick Me!


Middle school is 3 years, marriage is typically 20+ for those who survive the first 3 years.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> Some people like to text and need that social interaction...if it wasn't that it would be FB messages which I don't track at all. She communicates with a lot of people.Many are men. She has cut back on it significantly and is spending much more time at home rather than going out and invites me always top go out with her when she does get invited. I think she does realize she let it get to familiar and herself made changes. People do learn.


Except for one thing... She's still texting her boyfriend. And don't give me the nonsense that he's not her boyfriend when you know very well that he is. She is still emotionally involved with this guy. If she wasn't, she wouldn't be texting him. You refuse to check what she's texting him for one reason...you're scared. You're scared to see what she says to him. You're scared to see what she says about YOU to him. Even your sister has told you that your wife shouldn't be talking to this guy...yet YOU seem to think everything will just work itself out. Utter nonsense, T2. It won't just work itself out. You keep saying you won't put up with it much longer... LMAO! Yes you will. You are in year FOUR, T2. You are going to keep going in this pattern, indefinitely. Why? Because you refuse to give her an ultimatum. Why is that? Because you KNOW, deep down, that she won't choose you. Your situation, much as you wish to liken it to BB's or any of the other men in this thread, is NOT like theirs. They are trying to find answers, to get results. YOU, sir, are complacent. You keep saying "I'll do it. I'll do it. Just wait and see." But you don't. You don't take actual action. Strike that, you do. You did a couple years ago when I told you what's going through your wife's mind, because it was quite similar, at that time, to what had gone through MY mind when I was involved in my EA. And what action did you take? You certainly didn't say anything against your wife. Nope! You lambasted ME. You attacked ME, a woman who DID get turned around, when MY husband TOOK ACTION! Think about that T2. Sitting on your ass, doing nothing, gets you nothing!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> Except for one thing... She's still texting her boyfriend. And don't give me the nonsense that he's not her boyfriend when you know very well that he is. She is still emotionally involved with this guy. If she wasn't, she wouldn't be texting him. You refuse to check what she's texting him for one reason...you're scared. You're scared to see what she says to him. You're scared to see what she says about YOU to him. Even your sister has told you that your wife shouldn't be talking to this guy...yet YOU seem to think everything will just work itself out. Utter nonsense, T2. It won't just work itself out. You keep saying you won't put up with it much longer... LMAO! Yes you will. You are in year FOUR, T2. You are going to keep going in this pattern, indefinitely. Why? Because you refuse to give her an ultimatum. Why is that? Because you KNOW, deep down, that she won't choose you. Your situation, much as you wish to liken it to BB's or any of the other men in this thread, is NOT like theirs. They are trying to find answers, to get results. YOU, sir, are complacent. You keep saying "I'll do it. I'll do it. Just wait and see." But you don't. You don't take actual action. Strike that, you do. You did a couple years ago when I told you what's going through your wife's mind, because it was quite similar, at that time, to what had gone through MY mind when I was involved in my EA. And what action did you take? You certainly didn't say anything against your wife. Nope! You lambasted ME. You attacked ME, a woman who DID get turned around, when MY husband TOOK ACTION! Think about that T2. Sitting on your ass, doing nothing, gets you nothing!


I disagree on the texting part, I think there is more complexity than a simple shes into some EA of some sort which I don't buy anymore. I listed already what I thought were the big three issues.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree.


Obviously. 

ETA: I assume you disagree about taking action. Well, that much is obvious. You do seem to think that letting her continue with this guy is perfectly fine. So, I am going to assume you are NOT talking about our run-in a couple years ago.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree on the texting part, I think there is more complexity than a simple shes into some EA of some sort which I don't buy anymore. I listed already what I thought were the big three issues.


How did President Reagan say it? Trust but verify?

I know Dr. Mrs. LD is not EA'ing her way at home thanks to a rather sophisticated video surveillance system in our house. Not that I would look...


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> Obviously.
> 
> ETA: I assume you disagree about taking action. Well, that much is obvious. You do seem to think that letting her continue with this guy is perfectly fine. So, I am going to assume you are NOT talking about our run-in a couple years ago.


Truth is I have no clue to what you are talking about...but again I am a man and don't remember stuff like that.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> Truth is I have no clue to what you are talking about...but again I am a man and don't remember stuff like that.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/56596-mariage-2-0-nice-guys-guide-sexless-recovery-20.html


Post #300. And in the part that you quoted in that post, it's true. My husband didn't have to "re-wire" me. He only said "That's it. This stops, or else we're done."

Remembering has nothing to do with whether you're a man or a woman. Men remember many things just as easily as women. And women forget things just as easily as men. It's not gender specific. 

Point is, T2, you keep trying to give advice to people... and you have no real results to show for it. You tell people to take a "wait and see" approach... and that just makes things worse.Your method isn't working. You've just resigned yourself to a sexless existence.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/56596-mariage-2-0-nice-guys-guide-sexless-recovery-20.html
> 
> 
> Post #300. And in the part that you quoted in that post, it's true. My husband didn't have to "re-wire" me. He only said "That's it. This stops, or else we're done."
> 
> Remembering has nothing to do with whether you're a man or a woman. Men remember many things just as easily as women. And women forget things just as easily as men. It's not gender specific.
> 
> Point is, T2, you keep trying to give advice to people... and you have no real results to show for it. You tell people to take a "wait and see" approach... and that just makes things worse.Your method isn't working. You've just resigned yourself to a sexless existence.


Absolutely not a sexless existence is unacceptable to me especially when married. I also do have other results some more important than sex. Perhaps I just go about it in a non-traditional way... in the end it isn't how you won the game...just check the scoreboard. No one cares how you won.


----------



## john117

Wait and see rarely improves things. It simply gives even more time for the spouses to drift further apart. That is why I suggest an inventory of what you give and what you get out of the marriage. The moment you get less than you want and the trend is non correctable it's decision time.

Everything has a price, be it sex, power, status, love, health, etc. Try seeing your marriage as a business with a balance sheet and things may make more sense.

Give unconditional love to your kids, and your parents, but fill out your ledger with your partner and your contributions.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> Absolutely not a sexless existence is unacceptable to me. I also do have other results. Perhaps I just go about it in a non-traditional way... in the end it isn't how you won the game...just check the scoreboard.


You're right about one thing... it doesn't matter how the game is won. What does matter is that you actually DO something to win the game, rather than "wait and see" if the scoreboard changes. When something is unacceptable, you actually do something to change it, T2. The operative word is *DO*. And, to win the game, you don't keep moving the goalposts. Keep moving them, no one scores.

MEM has results. John... Sorry, not too familiar with his story, but either he has results, or he's taking some sort of action. BB is looking for advice (BTW, BB, take Anon's advice. My only concern is that if she really doesn't masturbate, it might push her further away. Even then, it gives you more answers. So follow her advice on this.). Anyway, BB is looking for advice, and is (I hope) taking action. They aren't moving the finish line, T2. YOU are. And that's why you aren't getting results... REAL results.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> You're right about one thing... it doesn't matter how the game is won. What does matter is that you actually DO something to win the game, rather than "wait and see" if the scoreboard changes. When something is unacceptable, you actually do something to change it, T2. The operative word is *DO*. And, to win the game, you don't keep moving the goalposts. Keep moving them, no one scores.
> 
> MEM has results. John... Sorry, not too familiar with his story, but either he has results, or he's taking some sort of action. BB is looking for advice (BTW, BB, take Anon's advice. My only concern is that if she really doesn't masturbate, it might push her further away. Even then, it gives you more answers. So follow her advice on this.). Anyway, BB is looking for advice, and is (I hope) taking action. They aren't moving the finish line, T2. YOU are. And that's why you aren't getting results... REAL results.


I disagree. Much of where my wife and I are now is set up by what I did before. Now it is time for her to return to me before time runs out on us, Sometimes waiting is the best you can do.... I do believe I will get similar results my way.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree. Much of where my wife and I are now is set up by what I did before. *Now it is time for her to return to me before time runs out on us*, Sometimes waiting is the best you can do.... *I do believe I will get similar results my way.*


Time will never run out. You keep moving the goalpost. Why should she change? You don't give actual consequences. You SAY there will be... but there aren't.


----------



## john117

Maricha75 said:


> MEM has results. John... Sorry, not too familiar with his story, but either he has results, or he's taking some sort of action.



John has to deal with a partner that has diagnosed BPD and is a workaholic. Both conditions occurring at year 25 of a decent marriage up to that point. Also from a culture not exactly open to frank discussions about things intimate and from a family that should have their own chapter in DSM IV. Family financials a bit harder to detangle with two kids on college.

What my story has taught me is that you may have the best knowledge of what your partner is thinking, the best understanding of why she does not want intimacy, and the knowledge that no matter how much you may change or improve it won't matter. That's a hard pill to swallow. 

As I said in the other thread, hanging on to photos of ghosts. For now.


----------



## jld

So sorry, John. You have been very patient.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> John has to deal with a partner that has diagnosed BPD and is a workaholic. Both conditions occurring at year 25 of a decent marriage up to that point. Also from a culture not exactly open to frank discussions about things intimate and from a family that should have their own chapter in DSM IV. Family financials a bit harder to detangle with two kids on college.
> 
> What my story has taught me is that you may have the best knowledge of what your partner is thinking, the best understanding of why she does not want intimacy, and the knowledge that no matter how much you may change or improve it won't matter. That's a hard pill to swallow.
> 
> As I said in the other thread, hanging on to photos of ghosts. For now.


So John, have you accepted that this is your life? Do you envision anything different? Anything better? How do you find happiness with this life you have? Do you think this hesitance, for lack of a better word, to make changes is part of your nature?


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
First line in the sand: 2 years
Second line in the sand: 3 years
Third and absolute LAST line in the sand: 4 years

Current state: a full Olympiad of celibacy and a W who is very likely banging the OM.

MEM: First line in the sand: at day 5
Hysterical bonding sex on day 5 and for weeks after. Normal and happy 2/week frequency thereafter. 

This isn't about love of partner. I love M2 enough to take a bullet for her and to fire a bullet to protect her. 

This is about believing in yourself. I believe I deserve to be treated decently. And also that I get to define what decently means. Just as M2 gets to define what it means for her to be treated decently. Mostly I agree with, respect and therefore act in accordance with her definition. 

When our views conflict, we fight. It's fvcking painful. Sometimes I see her viewpoint. Often she sees mine. 

Peace at any price is T2's mantra. Not mine. 





Maricha75 said:


> Time will never run out. You keep moving the goalpost. Why should she change? You don't give actual consequences. You SAY there will be... but there aren't.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> First line in the sand: 2 years
> Second line in the sand: 3 years
> Third and absolute LAST line in the sand: 4 years
> 
> Current state: a full Olympiad of celibacy and a W who is very likely banging the OM.
> 
> MEM: First line in the sand: at day 5
> Hysterical bonding sex on day 5 and for weeks after. Normal and happy 2/week frequency thereafter.
> 
> This isn't about love of partner. I love M2 enough to take a bullet for her and to fire a bullet to protect her.
> 
> This is about believing in yourself. I believe I deserve to be treated decently. And also that I get to define what decently means. Just as M2 gets to define what it means for her to be treated decently. Mostly I agree with, respect and therefore act in accordance with her definition.
> 
> When our views conflict, we fight. It's fvcking painful. Sometimes I see her viewpoint. Often she sees mine.
> 
> Peace at any price is T2's mantra. Not mine.



My mantra is slow and steady wins the race and good things come to those that wait.

I wanted my wife to heal herself not for me to force her into sex... we are getting there and it may take a bit longer but it will be worth the patience I exhibited she has had a taste of two different futures and it seems to me she likes the one we are in now.... I can sense the change in her heart.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> So John, have you accepted that this is your life? Do you envision anything different? Anything better? How do you find happiness with this life you have? Do you think this hesitance, for lack of a better word, to make changes is part of your nature?



Things are quiet for now, and I suspect for another two or three years they will stay quiet. Then decision time. Meanwhile the money flows, my girls continue school, and life is good. That's happiness.

I'm really not concerned with short term or long term change. I adapt well. But I am concerned with long term viability. Long term my relationship is not viable so.....

You accept the situation only because there's a biggest reason for this all. We've been thru this


----------



## Lyris

The way T2 talks about his wife reminds me of the way people talk about unknowable and unpredictable deities. Examining and analysing every little change. Assigning great significance to tiny actions that the deity doesn't even notice. Things that have nothing to do with the worshippers at all.

And they create a whole society around these actions that really mean nothing. That's what T2's doing . Creating a whole marriage all by himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Allowing your W to continue inappropriate relationships with other men while you jerk off in the bathroom is neither patience, nor kindness. It's cowardice.





Trying2figureitout said:


> My mantra is slow and steady wins the race and good things come to those that wait.
> 
> I wanted my wife to heal herself not for me to force her into sex... we are getting there and it may take a bit longer but it will be worth the patience I exhibited she has had a taste of two different futures and it seems to me she likes the one we are in now.... I can sense the change in her heart.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Well I understand the skepticism you'll all be surprised when it works.


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> You consistently use the term 'sexing' which makes it seem like some robotic act.


Correction. (you are doing it again, Mem. Attempting to put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head which bear no resemblance to reality)

Search the thread. I did not use "sexing" till responding to 1174-1200 and I used it deliberately because ISTM that BB is looking through his own filters. His wife is a CSA survivor. Sexing in NOT love. I'm quite sure she feels ambiguous @ sex a very common reaction to being sexually violated by people who were supposed to be "protective"

I think it is flat out WRONG for BB to repeat (dozens of times, perhaps- I'm not going to search the thread and quote the sentiment which has been repeated over and over and OVER) that his wife does not LOVE him. 

I found two quotes and quoted one of them where he admitted he does not LOVE her. My conclusion is that he is projecting his own lack of love onto her. In his mind sex=love and sexlessness="she doesn't LOVE me"


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> Well I understand the skepticism you'll all be surprised when it works.


Not holding our breath, T2. Constantly moving that line in the sand isn't "working". Change only occurs when you do something. And, it's not skepticism. It's incredulity that someone can be so obtuse. however, after so many years of hearing the same "I will not put up with this anylonger1" followed by "I have a PLAN!" and then "Just a little longer. Just you wait! You'll see!"... I agree with MEM... cowardice, sad. In the beginning, the pity is because it's not right to withhold, as it seemed she was doing "just because". Now? The pity is due to the delusions. Well, at least you have that... our pity.


----------



## Blonde

usmarriedguy said:


> You may not like my word choice but your own words indicate that you are resigned to tolerate less than ideal conditions.


Based on reading this forum, I would say that my M is better than average (ever since I spent a couple years in therapy and grew a backbone )

Someone has a tagline which says "The more I read TAM, the more I love my wife [husband]"

I am of the very firm opinion that the grass is not greener. Everyone is human and if you dump one and go for another, she/he is going to have their own thorny issues.


----------



## Maricha75

Blonde said:


> Based on reading this forum, I would say that my M is better than average (*ever since I spent a couple years in therapy and grew a backbone* )
> 
> Someone has a tagline which says "The more I read TAM, the more I love my wife [husband]"
> 
> I am of the very firm opinion that the grass is not greener. Everyone is human and if you dump one and go for another, she/he is going to have their own thorny issues.


Here's the key... you have DONE something. Therapy may not be what every TAM member needs, but you recognized what you needed, and you took action. Unfortunately, some are "all talk, no action". Status quo is the way to live. I'm not saying to give up. I'm saying take action. Action is what brings about results, not wishful thinking.... and Blonde, that's something YOU learned as well. Nothing changed until you MADE them change.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> Well I understand the skepticism you'll all be surprised when it works.



As Major Dad said, in war you have one of two objectives in a battle. One is to take control of the situation (ie a hill, bridge, or other asset) and the other, if you can't accomplish the first objective in a practical way, is to deny your opponent the use of the same asset without either side having control of it. This often involves destroying the asset or rendering it useless (bridge, base...)

In civilian speak, if the asset is happiness, then your only courses of action vis a vis Mrs. T2 is to either take away her happiness or deny her access to it (sounds familiar?)

I'm not talking passive aggressive sulking here but full active detachment on all fronts. If her idea of marriage is a standard cheerful family with the 2.3 kids, dog, fence, etc call her out early and often, continue to point out flaw after flaw and magical thinking after magical thinking. For all you know you may be doing her a favor by showing her that reality is different than her perception. Withholding trivial aspects like cleaning is not disruptive enough to cause serious pondering.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Blonde said:


> Based on reading this forum, I would say that my M is better than average (ever since I spent a couple years in therapy and grew a backbone )
> 
> Someone has a tagline which says "The more I read TAM, the more I love my wife [husband]"
> 
> I am of the very firm opinion that the grass is not greener. Everyone is human and if you dump one and go for another, she/he is going to have their own thorny issues.


Yes, I agree.
Most all resign ourselves to less than ideal conditions. 

On the other hand everyone should have a limit of what they will tolerate because there is often something better than making mud pies in a slum. 

Wearing a blindfold and plugging in a Glade 'Apple Pie' scent is not a good solution.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Allowing your W to continue inappropriate relationships with other men while you jerk off in the bathroom is neither patience, nor kindness. It's cowardice.


Exactly. I wouldn't put it so harsh but that's 100% how it looks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> Not holding our breath, T2. Constantly moving that line in the sand isn't "working". Change only occurs when you do something. And, it's not skepticism. It's incredulity that someone can be so obtuse. however, after so many years of hearing the same "I will not put up with this anylonger1" followed by "I have a PLAN!" and then "Just a little longer. Just you wait! You'll see!"... I agree with MEM... cowardice, sad. In the beginning, the pity is because it's not right to withhold, as it seemed she was doing "just because". Now? The pity is due to the delusions. Well, at least you have that... our pity.


LOL I don't need any pity... I am happy with the progress.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> LOL I don't need any pity... I am happy with the progress.


In fairness here, it's all about ones perception of happiness. If you are happy, you are happy. Everyone's definition is different
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Allowing your W to continue inappropriate relationships with other men while you jerk off in the bathroom is neither patience, nor kindness. It's cowardice.


First off I don't jerk off in the bathroom . Secondly you pick your battles. Anyone can browbeat their spouse into changing because of consequences... I on the other-hand believe in free will and if my wife wants to text, use Facebook or have a girl nights or go to a HS reunion out I am ok with that as her way to relax... i am not threatened by her activities. Just like she has no say on whether I use porn or masterbate to relax. Or if I decide to talk to another woman because some are attracted to me.

I believe in the core of our marriage and that this sexless spell was simply a midlife correction. 

In the end I want us both to be happy and that for me means trusting my spouse now as she proves my trust of her correct at every turn. This will resolve.

Cowardice I don't see my actions as that at all.... as that was my goal. I had a plan and it is working.

I said all along my goal is an inherent *her wanting to have sex with me*...that is the only result I am after...and not because I held a hammer over her head. There really is no harm or foul here to correct.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> LOL I don't need any pity... I am happy with the progress.


LMAO! You keep saying that, but your posts to others about how to handle their issues say otherwise. You, essentially, say "It's a fact of life. You just have to live with it." When, in fact, it ISN'T a fact of life, and they DON'T have to live with it. YOU have chosen to live with it. It is a fact of YOUR life. And it really is scary that you are telling people that it's basically normal. It's not, T2. Unfortunately, you refuse to see this. That's why you get the pity. You pretend to be happy... but the tone of your posts says otherwise.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> First off I don't jerk off in the bathroom . Secondly you pick your battles. Anyone can browbeat their spouse into changing because of consequences... I on the other-hand believe in free will and if my wife wants to text, use Facebook or have girl nights out I am ok with that... i am not threatened by her activities. Just like she has no say on whether I use porn or masterbate. Or if I decide to talk to another woman.



You're right. She can text. She can go on Facebook. She can be social. You can talk to whomever you wish as well. But if you have a prayer of repairing the marriage, her boyfriend needs to be cut out. That's what makes you a coward. You refuse to take a stand and get him out of the picture. This is why your PLAN doesn't work.



Trying2figureitout said:


> I believe in the core of our marriage and that this sexless spell was simply a midlife correction.
> 
> In the end I want us both to be happy and that for me means trusting my spouse now as she proves my trust of her correct at every turn. This will resolve.
> 
> Coward I don't see my actions as that at all. I had a plan and it is working.


And yet, she's still speaking with her boyfriend. Yep, that plan to make her see you as her "best option" is sure working wonders! ... As she tells her boyfriend that you two still aren't having sex. Don't say she's not saying that. You don't know. You won't verify what she's talking to him about. But, I can promise you she IS talking about it. Even if not to her boyfriend, then she's talking about it to someone.



Trying2figureitout said:


> I said all along my goal is an inherent *her wanting to have sex with me*...that is the only result I am after...and not because I held a hammer over her head.


I don't recall you saying you held a hammer over her head when she wanted sex... and YOU TURNED HER Down. You know what? I'm seeing the big picture here.... You enjoy playing the martyr. Why did I not see this before?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> LMAO! You keep saying that, but your posts to others about how to handle their issues say otherwise. You, essentially, say "It's a fact of life. You just have to live with it." When, in fact, it ISN'T a fact of life, and they DON'T have to live with it. YOU have chosen to live with it. It is a fact of YOUR life. And it really is scary that you are telling people that it's basically normal. It's not, T2. Unfortunately, you refuse to see this. That's why you get the pity. You pretend to be happy... but the tone of your posts says otherwise.


I am happy. Look at it this way sure you can force your spouse into opening her legs and using her. That would be and always is unacceptable to me. And yes I immediately turned my wife down when she offered that in frustration over a year ago.

You Maricha come across as some "prison convert" after you husband basically was ready to throw you to the curb with your EA partner. Now you proclaim how he saved you and how you now love sex with him.. when in fact it was SELF PRESERVATION and you know he will drop you like a bad habit should you return to your sexless ways and your EA ways...its all about self preservation on your part and not wanting to end up alone and divorced for a hole you dug.... you paid the price for admission to a marriage you nearly destroyed.

I again believe in re-igniting natural what brought my wife and I together without holding a gun to her head. Is that so hard to understand? That way i know the sex we are having is legit and not some fear factor reason. Again I believe in free will..and I never want to have sex with my wife is she at the same time doesn't want it also...and she knows that.

As for the fact of life it is for upwards of 20% of marriages now and many more in the future.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I think you should give up on your blog T2 there is no PLAN.

Maybe rename and rewrite it with advice on how to accept a sexless marriage. There are all sorts of blogs about how males need to be more dominant but maybe there is a market for the submissive male


----------



## Trying2figureitout

usmarriedguy said:


> I think you should give up on your blog T2 there is no PLAN.
> 
> Maybe rename and rewrite it with advice on how to accept a sexless marriage. There are all sorts of blogs about how males need to be more dominant but maybe there is a market for the submissive male


I will write the remainder of the blog once the results are in. Also those "dominate alpha male" blogs how are they working for you all? All I know is may results which speak for themselves. Patience is a plan.


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
I carefully read what his W told him about her CSA. She said one of the perpetrators was a relative and yet there are no relatives with whom there appears to be any tension. By itself, that simply stuck in my mind as an open question. 

Separate from the topic of CSA, his Wife's appears to be comfortable being deceptive when it is convenient to do so. 

As to how he feels about her, well I can describe that fairly easily. He feels used. That's what happens over time in very one sided marriages. 

- Sex was fine until her made a lifetime commitment to her. 
- She quit counseling after he addressed the issues she had with him and the counselor began to question her treatment of him.
- And worse, she is continuing to pretend everything is fine even though he is clearly not happy.






Blonde said:


> Correction. (you are doing it again, Mem. Attempting to put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head which bear no resemblance to reality)
> 
> Search the thread. I did not use "sexing" till responding to 1174-1200 and I used it deliberately because ISTM that BB is looking through his own filters. His wife is a CSA survivor. Sexing in NOT love. I'm quite sure she feels ambiguous @ sex a very common reaction to being sexually violated by people who were supposed to be "protective"
> 
> I think it is flat out WRONG for BB to repeat (dozens of times, perhaps- I'm not going to search the thread and quote the sentiment which has been repeated over and over and OVER) that his wife does not LOVE him.
> 
> I found two quotes and quoted one of them where he admitted he does not LOVE her. My conclusion is that he is projecting his own lack of love onto her. In his mind sex=love and sexlessness="she doesn't LOVE me"


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> I am happy. Look at it this way sure you can force your spouse into opening her legs and using her. That would be and always is unacceptable to me.
> 
> You Maricha come across as some "prison convert" after you husband basically was ready to throw you to the curb. Now you proclaim how he saved you and how you now love sex with him.. when in fact it was SELF PRESERVATION and you know he will drop you like a bad habit should you return to your sexless ways and your EA ways...its all about self preservation on your part and not wanting to end up alone and divorced.... you paid the price for admission to a marriage you nearly destroyed.
> 
> I again believe in re-igniting natural what brought my wife and I together without holding a gun to her head. Is that so hard to understand? That way i know the sex we are having is legit and not some fear factor reason. Again I believe in free will.


So while I don't really agree to t2's overall stance, I'm in the same boat with sex to a degree. This schedule it, wait for firm no, talk her into it, etc feels funny. It doesn't feel loving. It's a turn off because I tony see my wife as a one night stand. If she were just a one night stand, I wouldn't give two ****s about her wanting or not wanting the sex. If my sex needs outweigh my desire to be loved, then I think that could tell me clearly I'm done with her. 

The cheating shady stuff is never ok. My wife was cuddling all over me last night I the couch. I cuddled hard back. Then we went to bed and I kept my distance. I can't put my finger on it, but I just was not interested in initiating. I realize I may be faking the wrong direction here but I need more from her than sex when she feels randomly in the mood every other month. Again sexless brought me here, love questions are where I am today. 

Proceed with the rain down of "you are an ******* for not initiating" comments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> So while I don't really agree to t2's overall stance, I'm in the same boat with sex to a degree. This schedule it, wait for firm no, talk her into it, etc feels funny. It doesn't feel loving. It's a turn off because I tony see my wife as a one night stand. If she were just a one night stand, I wouldn't give two ****s about her wanting or not wanting the sex. If my sex needs outweigh my desire to be loved, then I think that could tell me clearly I'm done with her.
> 
> The cheating shady stuff is never ok. My wife was cuddling all over me last night I the couch. I cuddled hard back. Then we went to bed and I kept my distance. I can't put my finger on it, but I just was not interested in initiating. I realize I may be faking the wrong direction here but I need more from her than sex when she feels randomly in the mood every other month. Again sexless brought me here, love questions are where I am today.
> 
> Proceed with the rain down of "you are an ******* for not initiating" comments.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You want what I want your wife is where my wife was prior to the extreme sexless period and basically you are done with the sporadic nature... I don't blame you one bit.
No sex is better than lousy disinterested sex. In a way its liberating to control your own actions.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> You Maricha come across as some "prison convert" after you husband basically was ready to throw you to the curb with your EA partner. Now you proclaim how he saved you and how you now love sex with him.. when in fact it was SELF PRESERVATION and you know he will drop you like a bad habit should you return to your sexless ways and your EA ways...its all about self preservation on your part and not wanting to end up alone and divorced for a hole you dug.... you paid the price for admission to a marriage you nearly destroyed.


Not at all, T2. I always did enjoy sex. I chose the wrong way to handle his mental breakdown. That was my 1st EA. Yes, 1st EA. I make no secret that it happened twice. 2nd, WE got complacent. He also had an EA. It doesn't make us equal on that front. But one thing did happen as a result. We took action. We were never sexless. Throughout the entire time, we still had sex. The only time it has EVER approached sexless was when we discovered he has low testosterone. And, we got that taken care of right away. And, viola, not sexless. I am not worried that he will drop me. We are on the right path now. He still has the mental/psych issues, as well as some physical problems, but we address them. We take action when one of us even begins to feel unappreciated. But the key component is action. We didn't just sit back and wait. We did something about it. Take action = results. Wishing without acting = you get nothing.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Blonde,
> I carefully read what his W told him about her CSA. She said one of the perpetrators was a relative and yet there are no relatives with whom there appears to be any tension. By itself, that simply stuck in my mind as an open question.
> 
> Separate from the topic of CSA, his Wife's appears to be comfortable being deceptive when it is convenient to do so.
> 
> As to how he feels about her, well I can describe that fairly easily. He feels used. That's what happens over time in very one sided marriages.
> 
> - Sex was fine until her made a lifetime commitment to her.
> - She quit counseling after he addressed the issues she had with him and the counselor began to question her treatment of him.
> - And worse, she is continuing to pretend everything is fine even though he is clearly not happy.


I think her CSa is real but can't resolve who?

And as for how I feel? Nail head hammer. Bam 100% how I feel. Used . 

I'm on the verge of a promotion. Also bonus comes in April. Etc. I am done telling her anything about my personal successes. I am somewhere between believing she loves me and she is just using me for her lifestyle. So I do not want her to think I am financially successful or open to upgrading our life(house). I'm not portraying perfect husband anymore. I prefer to be another human male.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy

"Also those dominate blogs how are they working for you all? "

I don't know how they work but they seem to be fairly poplar. Isn't the purpose of a blog to attract readers? 

But it seems to me that actively trying to change a situation is always likely to create more results than accepting that situation. 

I am not criticizing your choice of accepting your situation -I think good for you, there is more to a marriage than just sex. I just think you would be better off refocusing your blog on that. Stop pretending you have a grand plan to fix it and instead give people advice on how to accept their mud pies.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> Not at all, T2. I always did enjoy sex. I chose the wrong way to handle his mental breakdown. That was my 1st EA. Yes, 1st EA. I make no secret that it happened twice. 2nd, WE got complacent. He also had an EA. It doesn't make us equal on that front. But one thing did happen as a result. We took action. We were never sexless. Throughout the entire time, we still had sex. The only time it has EVER approached sexless was when we discovered he has low testosterone. And, we got that taken care of right away. And, viola, not sexless. I am not worried that he will drop me. We are on the right path now. He still has the mental/psych issues, as well as some physical problems, but we address them. We take action when one of us even begins to feel unappreciated. But the key component is action. We didn't just sit back and wait. We did something about it. Take action = results. Wishing without acting = you get nothing.


You deserve each other is all I'm sayin'


----------



## Trying2figureitout

usmarriedguy said:


> "Also those dominate blogs how are they working for you all? "
> 
> I don't know how they work but they seem to be fairly poplar. Isn't the purpose of a blog to attract readers?
> 
> But it seems to me that actively trying to change a situation is always likely to create more results than accepting that situation.
> 
> I am not criticizing your choice of accepting your situation -I think good for you, there is more to a marriage than just sex. I just think you would be better off refocusing your blog on that. Stop pretending you have a grand plan to fix it and instead give people advice on how to accept their mud pies.


I am not a snake oil salesman and everything I do is geared towards my goal...so it takes time...BIG DEAL. Good comes to those that wait. My blog will one day help it will be completed once I am successful. I could really care less if anyone reads it. I accept the current reality that is still a work in progress to my goal.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> You deserve each other is all I'm sayin'


I couldn't agree with you more! Finally, something we agree on!

Yes, I know, you meant it as an insult. But it really isn't. Simply put, I love my husband. I made stupid choices, and so did he. Yet... we're still together, better than before. And yes, I can honestly say that. Why? Because we are better now than when we were just those few years ago.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> I couldn't agree with you more! Finally, something we agree on!
> 
> Yes, I know, you meant it as an insult. But it really isn't. Simply put, I love my husband. I made stupid choices, and so did he. Yet... we're still together, better than before. And yes, I can honestly say that. Why? Because we are better now than when we were just those few years ago.


So are my wife and I.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I could almost swap this story out with TheCuriousWife's or MissScarlett's.

They did not want to have to take action and lead either. They also wanted their spouses to just do the right thing. 

The difference is that they did take action and their sex life has improved.

I have to give them more understanding because it is traditional in our society that women are givers and men are leaders. And so fixing their problems required them to be dominant to some degree which is against the usual female nature. 

It is also easier for them to get their husbands to be more dominant because that is the usual male role.

You on the other hand seem to want to reverse the roles or at least be gender neutral.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> So are my wife and I.


If you say so. Your posts on the subject say otherwise, as I have stated. You have...resigned yourself to a sexless existence. This, after saying "There will not be a year 2!" Then "There will not be a year 3!" Then "There will not be a year 4!"... That's not happiness we note in your posts, T2. That is resignation. And the advice you give to other men is to resign themselves to a sexless existence. 

*smh* Sorry you can't see that.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

usmarriedguy said:


> I could almost swap this story out with TheCuriousWife's or MissScarlett's.
> 
> They did not want to have to take action and lead either. They also wanted their spouses to just do the right thing.
> 
> The difference is that they did take action and their sex life has improved.
> 
> I have to give them more understanding because it is traditional in our society that women are givers and men are leaders. And so fixing their problems required them to be dominant to some degree which is against the usual female nature.
> 
> It is also easier for them to get their husbands to be more dominant because that is the usual male role.
> 
> You on the other hand seem to want to reverse the roles.


Not at all... I believe in the roles we have and have corrected any issues there in that aspect already. What I won't do is the alpha male thing because that is not authentic to my personality.

I do remain true to myself that way I can do this forever without a sweat. I want inherent sex.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> If you say so. Your posts on the subject say otherwise, as I have stated. You have...resigned yourself to a sexless existence. This, after saying "There will not be a year 2!" Then "There will not be a year 3!" Then "There will not be a year 4!"... That's not happiness we note in your posts, T2. That is resignation. And the advice you give to other men is to resign themselves to a sexless existence.
> 
> *smh* Sorry you can't see that.


I have no control over when I achieve success and NO I don't condone a sexless marriage, I do see it as a temporary situation and while temporary you do have to accept reality. I agree the PLAN failed in the timelines I specified... that is not to say my marriage will fail. Many failures occur before success.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"Not at all... I believe in the roles we have and have corrected any issues there in that aspect already. What I won't do is the alpha male thing because that is not authentic to my personality."


In two sentences you both agreed with me and contradicted yourself twice.



"and have corrected any issues there in that aspect already"

No you are as passive as ever.

"I won't do the alpha male thing because that is not authentic to my personality"

Yes, that is what I just said:

"You on the other hand seem to want to reverse the roles or at least be gender neutral."


----------



## Trying2figureitout

usmarriedguy said:


> "Not at all... I believe in the roles we have and have corrected any issues there in that aspect already. What I won't do is the alpha male thing because that is not authentic to my personality."
> 
> 
> In two sentences you both agreed with me and contradicted yourself twice.
> 
> 
> 
> "and have corrected any issues there in that aspect already"
> 
> No you are as passive as ever.
> 
> "I won't do the alpha male thing because that is not authentic to my personality"
> 
> Yes, that is what I just said:
> 
> "You on the other hand seem to want to reverse the roles or at least be gender neutral."


I want to be myself because that is good enough. Not act a certain way.

The problem with most of these self help programs is they try to change you... I don't need to be changed now ...and I certainly won't change to coerce sex from my wife.

That is what she fell in love with and wanted to have sex with.
Problem with change is you now created an act to maintain.

I believe in consistency of character.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Trying2figureitout said:


> I want to be myself because that is good enough. Not act a certain way.
> 
> The problem with most of these self help programs is they try to change you... I don't need to be changed...and I certainly won't change to coerce sex from my wife.


I am not criticizing you. I was simply pointing out the difference and similarities between (you and boston) and (TheCuriousWife and MissScarlett).


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> Based on reading this forum, I would say that my M is better than average (ever since I spent a couple years in therapy and grew a backbone )
> 
> Someone has a tagline which says "The more I read TAM, the more I love my wife [husband]"
> 
> I am of the very firm opinion that the grass is not greener. Everyone is human and if you dump one and go for another, she/he is going to have their own thorny issues.



I think that's Dad&Hubby.

Every marriage has its problems.

My dh is home (finally!) and I am very happy. 

Don't you think people are more compatible with some people than others, Blonde? Isn't that why some people who leave their marriages and remarry are happier? That happened to my sister.


----------



## Tron

Trying2figureitout said:


> I want to be myself because that is good enough. Not act a certain way.
> 
> The problem with most of these self help programs is they try to change you... I don't need to be changed now ...and I certainly won't change to coerce sex from my wife.
> 
> That is what she fell in love with and wanted to have sex with.
> Problem with change is you now created an act to maintain.
> 
> I believe in consistency of character.


What a crock! That attitude would have us going about our daily business in a horse drawn carriage

Change is happening around you every day T2. You can embrace it or live in the past.

So you were happy being a doormat getting lots of sex many years ago. You are now a doormat getting no sex. You claim you are happy. Bull$hit!

The advice to alpha up does NOT result in any kind of sexual coercion...to the contrary, she will naturally want to have more sex with you because she is more attracted to you. 

I kind of like not being 'mr. nice guy'. 

By all means, be consistent of character, but don't be surprised when you get more of the same. 

As for me, the latest 4 year sexless stint was enough. Something had to change...I started with me. It's working.


----------



## john117

There are cases where the drought is brought up by external factors such as career stress, family stress, EA or PA issues, illness, and so on, unrelated to how many abs are in your pack or how close your voice matches that of Charleston Heston. 

If your spouse is depressed you could bench press a Buick for all she cares and it won't matter.

If I were to put on my psychologist (*) hat I would say T2's issue is that he does not know the reason. It could be internal - resentment, selfishness, entitled princess syndrome, where has my life home to syndrome, and so on. Or it could be external, like Mrs. T2 has a work issue and stresses constantly over it... Or the Mexican Standoff... Etc.

Knowing what you're dealing with is no guarantee of success but not knowing is a guarantee of more of the same.

(*) wait a minute not THAT hat


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
You're absolutely right. 
Maricha's husband is a monster. He actually demanded that she stop an affair and focus her sexual energy on him. 

If that isn't abuse, what is. 

There ought to be a law. 

Lyris was right about you. Somehow you believe the other spouse is 'deity' not equal, and therefore you perceive enforcing boundaries as some type of blasphemy. 

T2 - you are bringing out my worst. I'm going to stop now because I honestly don't feel like I am fighting an equal, and so this is starting to feel like bullying. 

Please, go to therapy. Invite your sister to stay in your home for a full week since she clearly loves you and is full of good advice. 


QUOTE=Trying2figureitout;7291938]I am happy. Look at it this way sure you can force your spouse into opening her legs and using her. That would be and always is unacceptable to me. And yes I immediately turned my wife down when she offered that in frustration over a year ago.

You Maricha come across as some "prison convert" after you husband basically was ready to throw you to the curb with your EA partner. Now you proclaim how he saved you and how you now love sex with him.. when in fact it was SELF PRESERVATION and you know he will drop you like a bad habit should you return to your sexless ways and your EA ways...its all about self preservation on your part and not wanting to end up alone and divorced for a hole you dug.... you paid the price for admission to a marriage you nearly destroyed.

I again believe in re-igniting natural what brought my wife and I together without holding a gun to her head. Is that so hard to understand? That way i know the sex we are having is legit and not some fear factor reason. Again I believe in free will..and I never want to have sex with my wife is she at the same time doesn't want it also...and she knows that.

As for the fact of life it is for upwards of 20% of marriages now and many more in the future.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
You did great. I wouldn't change a thing about how you handled that. 

Including: Don't take sexual scraps, or you will always be starving. 

Instead, stay the course. 
- Upbeat and playful
- Accepting of and responsive to affection 
- Unwilling to:
1. Have sex, even if she initiates until she agrees to address what is broken in herself or between you two sexually
2. Increase your commitment level via more kids/houses/debt
3. Go on vacations - because they signal that everything is ok

Listen carefully B, because of everything I have told you, this is the truest thing. 

Sometime around 2 years ago was the last time I had intercourse. I was 49. Today at 51 I feel as good as I did at 35. I still have the explosive muscle strength of youth, retain a pretty healthy sex drive and have kept the V shape I developed in college. If everything goes according to plan M2 and I will live to about the same age which means that the final 25 years of my life will be lived without intercourse. Yes, we still do other stuff, though it is mainly for me. But true - intense sex - is now over for me. 

And I love M2 as much as I ever have. I don't resent her or our/my situation. I don't want to be with other women.

The reason for that is M2 loved me like a Tigress for all the years she was healthy. In cars and elevators and beaches and middle of the day bouncing up and down in shoulder high water in the ocean with a whole bunch of folks on the beach who were wondering: Is that the 'motion of the ocean' or are they actually fvcking in the breakers? 

I have near a hundred memories of crazy M2 initiated sexual escapades that make me smile. And thousands of memories of everyday basic marital sex. Most of the basic stuff was M2 relaxing and letting my touch work with her responsive desire. 

So I feel blessed. 

That's why I press you to force the issue now. You don't want to feel cheated during the best years of your life only to have bad luck, or a health issue rob you of a genuinely strong physical relationship in your later years. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> So while I don't really agree to t2's overall stance, I'm in the same boat with sex to a degree. This schedule it, wait for firm no, talk her into it, etc feels funny. It doesn't feel loving. It's a turn off because I tony see my wife as a one night stand. If she were just a one night stand, I wouldn't give two ****s about her wanting or not wanting the sex. If my sex needs outweigh my desire to be loved, then I think that could tell me clearly I'm done with her.
> 
> The cheating shady stuff is never ok. My wife was cuddling all over me last night I the couch. I cuddled hard back. Then we went to bed and I kept my distance. I can't put my finger on it, but I just was not interested in initiating. I realize I may be faking the wrong direction here but I need more from her than sex when she feels randomly in the mood every other month. Again sexless brought me here, love questions are where I am today.
> 
> Proceed with the rain down of "you are an ******* for not initiating" comments.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

MEM is there no chance of her physical condition improving?


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris,
I don't know. From what I read it seems like a chronic condition. 

There is surgery, but IMO the success rate does does not justify the risk. 

She pushed me to 'try' having sex and I told her that when she goes 2 straight months without pain, to let me know and I will gladly have normal sex with her. 

The last few times we did have sex, it started out not hurting, but around 5 minutes in it got painful and rapidly became very painful. And then she was uncomfortable down there for a day or two after. 






Lyris said:


> MEM is there no chance of her physical condition improving?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tron said:


> What a crock! That attitude would have us going about our daily business in a horse drawn carriage
> 
> Change is happening around you every day T2. You can embrace it or live in the past.
> 
> So you were happy being a doormat getting lots of sex many years ago. You are now a doormat getting no sex. You claim you are happy. Bull$hit!
> 
> The advice to alpha up does NOT result in any kind of sexual coercion...to the contrary, she will naturally want to have more sex with you because she is more attracted to you.
> 
> I kind of like not being 'mr. nice guy'.
> 
> By all means, be consistent of character, but don't be surprised when you get more of the same.
> 
> As for me, the latest 4 year sexless stint was enough. Something had to change...I started with me. It's working.


I am happy and its not a crock.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> You're absolutely right.
> Maricha's husband is a monster. He actually demanded that she stop an affair and focus her sexual energy on him.
> 
> If that isn't abuse, what is.
> 
> There ought to be a law.
> 
> Lyris was right about you. Somehow you believe the other spouse is 'deity' not equal, and therefore you perceive enforcing boundaries as some type of blasphemy.
> 
> T2 - you are bringing out my worst. I'm going to stop now because I honestly don't feel like I am fighting an equal, and so this is starting to feel like bullying.
> 
> Please, go to therapy. Invite your sister to stay in your home for a full week since she clearly loves you and is full of good advice.
> 
> 
> QUOTE=Trying2figureitout;7291938]I am happy. Look at it this way sure you can force your spouse into opening her legs and using her. That would be and always is unacceptable to me. And yes I immediately turned my wife down when she offered that in frustration over a year ago.
> 
> You Maricha come across as some "prison convert" after you husband basically was ready to throw you to the curb with your EA partner. Now you proclaim how he saved you and how you now love sex with him.. when in fact it was SELF PRESERVATION and you know he will drop you like a bad habit should you return to your sexless ways and your EA ways...its all about self preservation on your part and not wanting to end up alone and divorced for a hole you dug.... you paid the price for admission to a marriage you nearly destroyed.
> 
> I again believe in re-igniting natural what brought my wife and I together without holding a gun to her head. Is that so hard to understand? That way i know the sex we are having is legit and not some fear factor reason. Again I believe in free will..and I never want to have sex with my wife is she at the same time doesn't want it also...and she knows that.
> 
> As for the fact of life it is for upwards of 20% of marriages now and many more in the future.


[/QUOTE]

Mem I feel sorry for you and your pain


----------



## pidge70

I think the lack of sex has caused a certain poster on here to lose their grip on reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM, I'm so very sorry about your wife's condition. I can't imagine the heartbreak. Has she tried physical therapy?


----------



## MEM2020

AP,
Yes and no.

She got these dilators. They range in size from small to John Holmes size. Maybe she jumped sizes to fast, but she found them painful. 

I think the bigger obstacle is that she 'bit the pillow' on and off for years as this condition gradually worsened. So the thought of sex makes her tense up down there. 

I'm honest about 'missing it', and also tell her that I accept she already has some intermittent pain just from day to day life and I refuse to become a potential contributor to that. 

If she gets to a 2 month pain free spot, I imagine she will tell me. Because 2 months means that we could at least try without my conscience kicking me in the head. 

I absolutely know that with even a little guilt/pressure she will try. No desire to do that because I don't trust her to be completely honest about pain/no pain. 

The teenage version of me would never believe that one day I would wistfully describe my sex life as: An incredibly wonderful experience with someone I love and am super attracted to that ends with me (standing on the bed) hyperventilating from the rapture while trying not to lose my balance.....

Wistful, because it doesn't feel the same. I always liked finishing missionary and - at risk of forfeiting my 'man card', I liked lying on top of and then in a sideways tangle with M2 for a long, long time after we finished. And I would without hesitation trade all this generously given and mechanically flawless oral sex for THAT. 




Anon Pink said:


> MEM, I'm so very sorry about your wife's condition. I can't imagine the heartbreak. Has she tried physical therapy?


----------



## Lyris

It seems really wrong that she can't get any help with this. I mean, there Viagra, penis pumps etc for men, why aren't there more options for women?

I would be devastated if I wasn't able to have penetrative sex with my husband. I don't think I could get over it.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> AP,
> I always liked finishing missionary and - at risk of forfeiting my 'man card', I liked lying on top of and then in a sideways tangle with M2 for a long, long time after we finished. And I would without hesitation trade all this generously given and mechanically flawless oral sex for THAT.


Why is that forfeiting your man card? Dh and I love that, too, ending exactly as you describe. It feels beautiful and loving and connected.

MEM, I read your post yesterday and did not really know what to say. This could happen to any woman, at any time. I am sure research is being done, but it can take so long to find a cure.

You are grateful for the healthy, functional years. You are right to look at it this way.

It is hard to bear our crosses in life. But there doesn't seem to be a moral way around yours.

I'm sorry, MEM. I bet the men here are especially feeling sympathy for you.


----------



## MEM2020

Vulvodynia

And FWIW she got a bunch of different meds for the pain. They helped get the condition under control. 





Lyris said:


> It seems really wrong that she can't get any help with this. I mean, there Viagra, penis pumps etc for men, why aren't there more options for women?
> 
> I would be devastated if I wasn't able to have penetrative sex with my husband. I don't think I could get over it.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
I'm not looking for any loopholes. 

And mainly I posted this because I read way, way to many stories here where people wait a crazy long period of time hoping for resolution with partners who don't respect their feelings at all. 




jld said:


> Why is that forfeiting your man card? Dh and I love that, too, ending exactly as you describe. It feels beautiful and loving and connected.
> 
> MEM, I read your post yesterday and did not really know what to say. This could happen to any woman, at any time. I am sure research is being done, but it can take so long to find a cure.
> 
> You are grateful for the healthy, functional years. You are right to look at it this way.
> 
> It is hard to bear our crosses in life. But there doesn't seem to be a moral way around yours.
> 
> I'm sorry, MEM. I bet the men here are especially feeling sympathy for you.


----------



## jld

Look, I just did a search on vulvodynia and diet, and one gal said hers got a lot better just a few days after cutting out gluten. Has your wife considered a diet change like this?

Mad Peach: Vulvodynia? Fibromyalgia? Try a Diet Change

ETA: Some more research reveals it is important to avoid oxalates and dairy. I think it would be interesting for you and her to look into this, MEM. If the pain level could get low enough through diet changes, you two could be back in business.


----------



## MEM2020

There are definitely dietary factors. 

And she has improved her symptoms such that, day to day life is relatively good from this standpoint. 

Before getting it under control, even walking (you rub a little bit when you walk) was painful. 

Happy to discuss this open ended on another thread. 




jld said:


> Look, I just did a search on vulvodynia and diet, and one gal said hers got a lot better just a few days after cutting out gluten. Has your wife considered a diet change like this?
> 
> Mad Peach: Vulvodynia? Fibromyalgia? Try a Diet Change
> 
> ETA: Some more research reveals it is important to avoid oxalates and dairy. I think it would be interesting for you and her to look into this, MEM. If the pain level could get low enough through diet changes, you two could be back in business.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> I think it is flat out WRONG for BB to repeat (dozens of times, perhaps- I'm not going to search the thread and quote the sentiment which has been repeated over and over and OVER) that his wife does not LOVE him.


While this may be technically true, I think it obscures a real issue. That her love of him is not the type that most people want in a marriage. I love my brother and sister, yet there is nothing sexual about it. I also love my wife and want a sexual relationship. If she did not, I would not view her as loving me, at least in the way that I need my wife to love me. 



> I found two quotes and quoted one of them where he admitted he does not LOVE her. My conclusion is that he is projecting his own lack of love onto her. In his mind sex=love and sexlessness="she doesn't LOVE me"


Is it projection or reaction? You seem to assume that he did he not love her first and is now projecting that. Is it possible that he did love her but her not wanting sex and not caring about his needs has caused him to lose his love for her?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> So while I don't really agree to t2's overall stance, I'm in the same boat with sex to a degree. This schedule it, wait for firm no, talk her into it, etc feels funny. It doesn't feel loving. It's a turn off because I tony see my wife as a one night stand. If she were just a one night stand, I wouldn't give two ****s about her wanting or not wanting the sex. If my sex needs outweigh my desire to be loved, then I think that could tell me clearly I'm done with her.


So you want to be passive and wait for her to initiate like a guy does? Because that will very likely fail. 



> The cheating shady stuff is never ok. My wife was cuddling all over me last night I the couch. I cuddled hard back. Then we went to bed and I kept my distance. I can't put my finger on it, but I just was not interested in initiating. I realize I may be faking the wrong direction here but I need more from her than sex when she feels randomly in the mood every other month. Again sexless brought me here, love questions are where I am today.


So why do you give her all the cuddling she wants? I really don't understand your thinking. She wants that reassurance that everything is alright. You complain how unhappy you are then give her exactly what she wants and needs to feel at ease. No wonder she ignores what you say. You don't mean it. You are not really unhappy, you just like to talk a big game but not actually do anything. 



> Proceed with the rain down of "you are an ******* for not initiating" comments.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My issues with you go beyond not initiating. You talk a lot but don't follow it with action. That hurts you more than not saying anything. Your words don't mean anything. You talk big, but she knows that you won't back it up. 

Quick quiz - do you respect the guy at the bar who talks about all the girls he is going to score with but always has an excuse as to why he won't talk to them? Or who brags about all his grand plans to start a business but sticks to the same dead-end job? Because to her, I fear that is what you are becoming.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> While this may be technically true, I think it obscures a real issue. That her love of him is not the type that most people want in a marriage. I love my brother and sister, yet there is nothing sexual about it. I also love my wife and want a sexual relationship. If she did not, I would not view her as loving me, at least in the way that I need my wife to love me.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it projection or reaction? You seem to assume that he did he not love her first and is now projecting that. Is it possible that he did love her but her not wanting sex and not caring about his needs has caused him to lose his love for her?


Exacrly. I still love her, but the love will change into something similar to a brother or cousin. To have and to hold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde prefaced one of her posts on this thread with: I may be projecting but.....

She is projecting. Her history is on here.





Tall Average Guy said:


> While this may be technically true, I think it obscures a real issue. That her love of him is not the type that most people want in a marriage. I love my brother and sister, yet there is nothing sexual about it. I also love my wife and want a sexual relationship. If she did not, I would not view her as loving me, at least in the way that I need my wife to love me.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it projection or reaction? You seem to assume that he did he not love her first and is now projecting that. Is it possible that he did love her but her not wanting sex and not caring about his needs has caused him to lose his love for her?


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Did she initiate all that affection after you kind of ignored her birthday? 

There are spouses who respond well to a 'gradual' approach. But I actually think most folks respond strongly to a rapid and large change in circumstance. 

I do believe that you should not have sex until she wants to have a conversation about what you define as an acceptable sex life. 

When you two have a candid discussion regarding more kids, and a larger house she will either:
- Engage in a 'what can I do to be a good wife' discussion or
- Retreat and try to wait you out or
- Start talking about the big D

I do agree with you about one thing. If she will only consider your happiness under extreme duress, you are likely going to end up right back in this spot after you give her what she wants. 



Tall Average Guy said:


> So you want to be passive and wait for her to initiate like a guy does? Because that will very likely fail.
> 
> 
> 
> So why do you give her all the cuddling she wants? I really don't understand your thinking. She wants that reassurance that everything is alright. You complain how unhappy you are then give her exactly what she wants and needs to feel at ease. No wonder she ignores what you say. You don't mean it. You are not really unhappy, you just like to talk a big game but not actually do anything.
> 
> 
> 
> My issues with you go beyond not initiating. You talk a lot but don't follow it with action. That hurts you more than not saying anything. Your words don't mean anything. You talk big, but she knows that you won't back it up.
> 
> Quick quiz - do you respect the guy at the bar who talks about all the girls he is going to score with but always has an excuse as to why he won't talk to them? Or who brags about all his grand plans to start a business but sticks to the same dead-end job? Because to her, I fear that is what you are becoming.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

MEM11363 said:


> Blonde prefaced one of her posts on this thread with: I may be projecting but.....
> 
> She is projecting. Her history is on here.


She might be. I was replying to her suggestion that BB32 was projecting. While he may be, I think the more likely scenario is that BB32 is reacting to the actions of his wife.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> Exacrly. I still love her, but the love will change into something similar to a brother or cousin. To have and to hold.



In my wife's culture cousins are marriageable 

I'm not sure about the love part. As I said I'm in love with a ghost. Fits me well.


----------



## Maricha75

john117 said:


> In my wife's culture cousins are marriageable


They're marriageable in some states, too. I actually know a couple who married, had a couple kids, and have since divorced. But it was completely legal.


----------



## Blonde

Tall Average Guy said:


> Is it projection or reaction? You seem to assume that he did he not love her first and is now projecting that. Is it possible that he did love her but her not wanting sex and not caring about his needs has caused him to lose his love for her?


Oh, I assume at the beginning they had chemistry/infatuation. But I also assume that* in her mind* sex does not equal love. Sex in fact, in the wrong context, is the opposite of love IME and in Mrs BB's CSA experience

So, he can listen to you fellas and continue believing that his "wife doesn't love him" because she doesn't sex him OR he can do what is in his power to change the equation. I have posted links and suggestions but on and on the assumption goes that "she doesn't sex me and sex =love so she doesn't love me" theme... 

I'm not going to keep trying to break through. I give up.

"My wife doesn't love me" is a self fulfilling prophecy IMO. A wife can feel resentment, rejection, and chip on shoulder and it is not a turn on.

BB, Cut her loose since you don't love her.


----------



## MEM2020

Tall,
Totally agree with that. He is responding to her. 

I started to reply to the earlier post you made regarding this point and I got interrupted. 

And, deep sigh, you are likely right about affection. 

Boston's going to have to do a 180 to get his wife's attention. Big red flag. 





Tall Average Guy said:


> She might be. I was replying to her suggestion that BB32 was projecting. While he may be, I think the more likely scenario is that BB32 is reacting to the actions of his wife.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Tall,
> Totally agree with that. He is responding to her.
> 
> I started to reply to the earlier post you made regarding this point and I got interrupted.
> 
> And, deep sigh, you are likely right about affection.
> 
> Boston's going to have to do a 180 to get his wife's attention. Big red flag.


Right. It's reaction, not on purpose, to years of rejection. We were at her friends house the other day and the other guy and I were laughing about a massage parlor bust. My wife's friend said out loud to her husband semi joking "don't you dare go to one of those places. I'll give you the hand job free if your in need haha". It was funny but I just thought how literally easy that is to do for someone even if your not in the mood to be penetrated. So it's no surprise that my self esteem has taken a hit. Now I'm just having a hard time feeling in love with someone who I now realize cares much less than I do. And blonde/annon please don't think this means I don't love her. It just clarifies things when you look at the bigger picture.

I'm not projecting. I'm absorbing years of treatment that I've been too blind to see. And, Yes I want to work it our
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
Your 'hit and run' approach is a bit tiresome. For someone who approaches everything from the perspective of:
'A solidly moral Christian wife'
You sure seem quick to run away from adversity. 

WWJD? Surely not flee the scene like you do. 




QUOTE=Blonde;7318081]Oh, I assume at the beginning they had chemistry/infatuation. But I also assume that* in her mind* sex does not equal love. Sex in fact, in the wrong context, is the opposite of love IME and in Mrs BB's CSA experience

So, he can listen to you fellas and continue believing that his "wife doesn't love him" because she doesn't sex him OR he can do what is in his power to change the equation. I have posted links and suggestions but on and on the assumption goes that "she doesn't sex me and sex =love so she doesn't love me" theme... 

I'm not going to keep trying to break through. I give up.

"My wife doesn't love me" is a self fulfilling prophecy IMO. A wife can feel resentment, rejection, and chip on shoulder and it is not a turn on.

BB, Cut her loose since you don't love her.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

Boston, repeat after me... Your self esteem is not based on whether someone is willing to have a go with you. I know it's frustrating but build up some ego will ya?

If my client thinks my research or my design is crud yea, or if the Journal of Such And Such says my paper sucked wind, yea, it's a blow to a stellar ego.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Interesting. 

The thing is - his wife meant that. And you know she did. And that's why you are so upset. 

T2 likes to hide behind the phrase: I don't want to extort sex from my Wife. I want her to want me. 

Amen to that. 

The only thing I ever extorted from M2 was respect. And the only consequence she faced for refusal was me either openly going to a massage parlor or departing the marriage. 

Explicitly extorting sex. Nothing could be a bigger turn OFF to me. 

Blonde is damaged by multiple instances of infidelity. She doesn't quite know how to respond to me because she can't grasp the notion of a H who asserts his boundaries the way that I have. 

Her hostility towards you is just a redirect of her anger at a H who has cheated multiple times......

Funny how this works. I've asserted boundaries but never cheated. Her H didn't assert boundaries and sneaked around....




BostonBruins32 said:


> Right. It's reaction, not on purpose, to years of rejection. We were at her friends house the other day and the other guy and I were laughing about a massage parlor bust. My wife's friend said out loud to her husband semi joking "don't you dare go to one of those places. I'll give you the hand job free if your in need haha". It was funny but I just thought how literally easy that is to do for someone even if your not in the mood to be penetrated. So it's no surprise that my self esteem has taken a hit. Now I'm just having a hard time feeling in love with someone who I now realize cares much less than I do. And blonde/annon please don't think this means I don't love her. It just clarifies things when you look at the bigger picture.
> 
> I'm not projecting. I'm absorbing years of treatment that I've been too blind to see. And, Yes I want to work it our
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

John,
You continue to grow on me.




john117 said:


> Boston, repeat after me... Your self esteem is not based on whether someone is willing to have a go with you. I know it's frustrating but build up some ego will ya?
> 
> If my client thinks my research or my design is crud yea, or if the Journal of Such And Such says my paper sucked wind, yea, it's a blow to a stellar ego.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> You continue to grow on me.



In a good way I hope :rofl:


----------



## Maricha75

Blonde said:


> Oh, I assume at the beginning they had chemistry/infatuation. But I also assume that* in her mind* sex does not equal love. Sex in fact, in the wrong context, is the opposite of love IME and in Mrs BB's CSA experience
> 
> So, he can listen to you fellas and continue believing that his "wife doesn't love him" because she doesn't sex him OR he can do what is in his power to change the equation. I have posted links and suggestions but on and on the assumption goes that "she doesn't sex me and sex =love so she doesn't love me" theme...
> 
> I'm not going to keep trying to break through. I give up.
> 
> "My wife doesn't love me" is a self fulfilling prophecy IMO. A wife can feel resentment, rejection, and chip on shoulder and it is not a turn on.
> 
> BB, Cut her loose since you don't love her.


Blonde, I have one question for you. Why do you insist on referring to this as "sexing" him/her? Why is it so hard to say "He feels she doesn't love him because she won't have sex"? I'm not following this train of thought here. As MEM said, you did preface your previous post with "I may be projecting..." And really, using wording like this, well... yes, it really does seem like projecting. The wording makes it sound like there is something wrong with a husband wanting to HAVE SEX with his wife, or vice versa. And really, the word "sexing" leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Now, you have been on this board long enough to recognize that for SOME men, and even women, sex = love. You have surmised that for BB's wife, sex =/= love. Fine, that very well may be. So why don't you, instead, suggest how he can discover what makes HER feel loved, and how to approach this subject with her in such a way that she can recognize that for HIM sex = love? Please, stop referring to sex, which SHOULD be a normal part of a marriage, as "sexing". It really sounds like you are shaming him for wanting sex with his WIFE.

Incidentally, I have no doubt that BB DOES love his wife. I think that, because of the way they have disconnected, it is more of a sibling or cousin type of love... now how can he try to get the SPOUSE love back? THAT is what we should be helping with, NOT with shaming him for wanting sex with his wife, rather than seeking attention elsewhere!


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Right. It's reaction, not on purpose, to years of rejection. We were at her friends house the other day and the other guy and I were laughing about a massage parlor bust. My wife's friend said out loud to her husband semi joking "don't you dare go to one of those places. I'll give you the hand job free if your in need haha". It was funny but I just thought how literally easy that is to do for someone even if your not in the mood to be penetrated. So it's no surprise that my self esteem has taken a hit. Now I'm just having a hard time feeling in love with someone who I now realize cares much less than I do. And blonde/annon please don't think this means I don't love her. It just clarifies things when you look at the bigger picture.
> 
> I'm not projecting. I'm absorbing years of treatment that I've been too blind to see. And, Yes I want to work it our
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not saying anything about you falling out of love with her. I agree. It's hard to love someone when you don't feel them loving you back! I totally get it!

We are at the same point, kind of sort of but not really, in my marriage. I have told him clearly, specifically, precisely, complete with links, scripts, props, time tables, charts and diagrams what I want. Okay maybe not that specifically, but you get my drift.

When you say to your spouse, I need this, I need to feel loved and this is how I feel loved, and they can't or won't do it...what else is there to assume but that they don't or can't love you?

But Boston, you're not taking this as actively as many people, myself included, think you should. I get that you're hurt. Really I do! But you're allowing your wife to assume it's okay. You're giving these passive and subtle signals that you're upset with her. 

Bull sh!t, that bull sh!t and you know it! What are going to do, sleep on the couch for the next 3 months until you hate her?

I've asked you this twice and you've never answered.

Does your wife KNOW, as in have you told her, that her refusal to explore having a better more fullfilling sex life is causing you to fall out of love with her, that you are walking towards the door as we speak? Cause if you haven't said those words. Several times, followed up be get help now.., then you are taking the cowards way out and avoiding conflict and dude... I have zero respect for people who avoid conflict!


----------



## john117

Unless BB's wife just teleported in from the Planet of the Amazons she knows. 

Do you not think she watches TV or movies, has girlfriends, siblings, parents, etc?

Believe me, she does. They all do. If you're lucky they don't connect the dots. If you're not lucky they make sure the dots don't get connected. 

I wish I could sugarcoat it with an Audrey Hepburn dramatic quote, but it is what it is.


----------



## Anon Pink

Not to argue with you John, because lord knows you can run circles and curlicues around differing opinions...

BUT

How do we know she knows? When we the last time they spoke about this? Did Boston state his expectations and boundaries clearly, using well defined terms? What mixed signals might he be giving her that leads her to believe his ire might not be as bad as all that?

From what I've seen, he's been a tad passive and a tad passive aggressive. Just not seeing decisive action, just wait, sulk and see.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Not to argue with you John, because lord knows you can run circles and curlicues around differing opinions...
> 
> BUT
> 
> How do we know she knows? When we the last time they spoke about this? Did Boston state his expectations and boundaries clearly, using well defined terms? What mixed signals might he be giving her that leads her to believe his ire might not be as bad as all that?
> 
> From what I've seen, he's been a tad passive and a tad passive aggressive. Just not seeing decisive action, just wait, sulk and see.


Good points. Last talk was about a month ago. Same sort of talk but I told her that it was not acceptable for me to be in a marriage where she can't be honest with me. I explained the intimacy missing from our marriage is creating a divide for me in this marriage. More importantly that her unwillingness to discuss past "it's just not a big deal to me" is sending me a message that she does not love me. She just cried and said she does love me and is sorry. I ended that convo by saying I can't continue like this in this marriage forever.

So she knows. My problem is I have not set a timeline. I have stopped doing extra things for her,ie valentines day, starting her car in morning etc. I suppose I coukd tell her why I'm not doing the extra things , but she hadn't asked and I think just proclaiming why I have stopped is like screaming "notice me!"

A move to the spare room would likely send a message, as I would just need to make it clear. I also keep debating independent counseling. I really value the professional opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

BostonBruins32 said:


> A move to the spare room would likely send a message, as I would just need to make it clear. I also keep debating independent counseling. I really value the professional opinion.


I think moving to the spare room WOULD tell her you're not kidding. You've told her the marriage cannot continue "as is"... show her you mean it. As for the counseling, do it. You say you value the professional opinion, so get it.


----------



## Openminded

Counseling is an excellent idea.


----------



## Blonde

Maricha75 said:


> Blonde, I have one question for you. Why do you insist on referring to this as "sexing" him/her? Why is it so hard to say "He feels she doesn't love him because she won't have sex"? I'm not following this train of thought here. As MEM said, you did preface your previous post with "I may be projecting..." And really, using wording like this, well... yes, it really does seem like projecting. The wording makes it sound like there is something wrong with a husband wanting to HAVE SEX with his wife, or vice versa. And really, the word "sexing" leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


I have tried on this thread and previous threads to help BB put himself into his wife's shoes, to deeply understand her.

No, it's not "projecting". It is *identifying*. His wife recently became aware of CSA. CSA causes ambivalence @ sex.

BB takes the sexlessness personally- as if his W is saying "I DON"T LOVE YOU".

BB is *wrong* to take it personally or to interpret it as lack of LOVE.

The projection part I was referring to is that in hindsight decades later, I have lived to regret not leaving H at age 30 post first A. I was young and had my whole life in front of me. We had three children <6 which is a huge complication and kept me stuck.

BB is young. His wife is young. There is only one child. They both have potential to move on and have a satisfying life with someone else. <--That is the extent of the projection.


----------



## Blonde

Maricha75 said:


> Now, you have been on this board long enough to recognize that for SOME men, and even women, sex = love. You have surmised that for BB's wife, sex =/= love. Fine, that very well may be. So why don't you, instead, suggest how he can discover what makes HER feel loved, and how to approach this subject with her in such a way that she can recognize that for HIM sex = love?


I put up links which have the cure but I don't think BB wants the cure. 

Marriage Help Program For Couples

Sexy Moves: The Ten Second Kiss | Married Man Sex Life

IC is a good idea because BB is stuck at 'she doesn't love me" and I would wager some of that comes out of early FOO trauma. CSA victims usually choose a "match".


----------



## jld

What do you think of Blonde's last point, BB? That you and your wife are both young, and can start over with someone else?


----------



## Blonde

Anon Pink said:


> From what I've seen, he's been a tad passive and a tad passive aggressive. Just not seeing decisive action, just wait, sulk and see.


:iagree: and that behavior is no aphrodisiac!


----------



## Anon Pink

blonde said:


> :iagree: And that behavior is no aphrodisiac!


truth!


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> A move to the spare room would likely send a message, as I would just need to make it clear. I also keep debating independent counseling. I really value the professional opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then do it.

Decisiveness and action will force her to dig in her heels, thus end the marriage, or get help. Sulking and sleeping on the couch will only create resentment on her part that you're abandoning her.

The action of moving to the spare room clearly communicates on a daily basis that we've got a problem and you have to do your part to help fix it.

"I cannot sleep next to you every night knowing you do not want me as I want you. I know you have CSA as a potential issue, but you won't even explore how this might affect your sex drive. I can't pretend we have a happy marriage. You must go back into therapy."


----------



## john117

Moving to the spare bedroom will only result in more withdrawal from both sides and perhaps a token fix and eventually back to same old same old...

I know it looks like something is done so...


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> I have tried on this thread and previous threads to help BB put himself into his wife's shoes, to deeply understand her.
> 
> No, it's not "projecting". It is *identifying*. His wife recently became aware of CSA. CSA causes ambivalence @ sex. *she recently became aware? totally confused here. She never forgot from day one. I'm not saying its no big deal. Maybe marriage triggered this? Again blonde, I cant punch her in the head till she talks openly about it. The counselor mentioned one time that opening up about traumas in our pasts will help heal ourselves. My traumas arent like hers, rather just divorced parents really.. but the counselor kind of looked at my wife when she said it, so I think i got her point*
> 
> BB takes the sexlessness personally- as if his W is saying "I DON"T LOVE YOU".
> 
> BB is *wrong* to take it personally or to interpret it as lack of LOVE. *consistent rejection from your spouse combined with constant criticism should be interpreted as ____ ? If that's how people show love, then I am totaly confused on how life works.*
> 
> The projection part I was referring to is that in hindsight decades later, I have lived to regret not leaving H at age 30 post first A. I was young and had my whole life in front of me. We had three children <6 which is a huge complication and kept me stuck.
> 
> BB is young. His wife is young. There is only one child. They both have potential to move on and have a satisfying life with someone else. <--That is the extent of the projection. *thanks for clarifying. Totally agree. I told her the same thing during counseling. I said a few times that I need her to make up her mind and or do whatever she needs to do sooner rather than later. Living in limbo and not discussing or addressing issues is unfair to both of us. I 100% said exactly this.*


----------



## BostonBruins32

Bedroom and sulking:

A. the sulking. I dont sulk at home. If anything, as we've discussed on here, i probably act a bit too much like things are ok. I remain jovial, though I don't puppy dog her around or seek out hugs or start her car. I also don't whine and sit with sad face. I just act "normal" <--whatever that is. So I'm not sure where sulking keeps coming from?

B. Bedroom. I don't disagree here. Yep I'm dragging my feet. I'm trying. This is new to me and I realize I need to get the feet in the sand and draw a line. I admire how easy this is for all of you to take stands like this, but I suck at it, so it is taking me a longer breaking point to do these things. 


John, 
what do you mean "i know it looks like something is done so.."?

And everyone else, please remember, a divorce or split is not 1st on my list. Its last. Dead last. I'm being patient here and really absorbing my feelings and acting as best I can per advice here/counselor/mmsl. There is room for improvement, and I'm getting there. If you read page one, then scroll to recent pages, you'd see that I'm making step changes. I'm just not pulling the trigger quick and assertive as some folks on here have expreessed.

edit..absorbing feelings. I have always been a bit hot on feelings. If I am mad or happy, you know it quick. I get high and I get low. so this has been a huge cahnge for me. fyi.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> :iagree: and that behavior is no aphrodisiac!


very true. Those headaches and stomach aches and tired feelings every night are very much an aphrodisiac for me! 

Especially arousing is the "NO!" upon caressing of the shoulders in bed.


----------



## jld

It is up to you the pace you go, BB. Everyone is just trying to give you helpful ideas based on what they see.

How about just committing to being open and honest with your wife, to just sharing how you feel with her whenever you feel it? That way she will be getting open and honest input, and will not have to guess what you are thinking and feeling. 

If you decide to move to the spare room, tell her why openly and honestly. No hiding.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> It is up to you the pace you go, BB. Everyone is just trying to give you helpful ideas based on what they see.
> 
> How about just committing to being open and honest with your wife, to just sharing how you feel with her whenever you feel it? That way she will be getting open and honest input, and will not have to guess what you are thinking and feeling.
> 
> If you decide to move to the spare room, tell her why openly and honestly. No hiding.


absolutely. I have never held anything back in our discussions. I even ask her to start if its a good time to talk, so that its more about working together rather than pounding her with something. She always obliges. 

I could probably bring up the topic every other day, if I considfered how flustered I feel about it inside sometimes. But I dont see he value there. as someone else pointed out, she knows where I stand and the conversation will be had again. just not daily. 

As for the spare room, theres no way I'd go there without giving her an explanation. just moving up there quietly is passive, I totally get it.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I think Blonde deserves more respect and credit than she is currently getting here.

She is, if not the lowest drive at least probably fairly representative of the average drive woman and who probably developed more interest in sex primarily to enhance her marriage.

I think when she uses a word like "sexing" her intent is to leave a bit of a distasteful feeling in order to show how a wife who does not view sex as everything might feel. 

I think that she adds an important perspective to this site.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> Oh, I assume at the beginning they had chemistry/infatuation. But I also assume that* in her mind* sex does not equal love. Sex in fact, in the wrong context, is the opposite of love IME and in Mrs BB's CSA experience
> 
> So, he can listen to you fellas and continue believing that his "wife doesn't love him" because she doesn't sex him OR he can do what is in his power to change the equation. I have posted links and suggestions but on and on the assumption goes that "she doesn't sex me and sex =love so she doesn't love me" theme...


But you ignore my point that there are in fact different types of love. While she may love him, her love is not the the type that will sustain their marriage. Even is she does not equate sex with love, she certainly does not appear to love him enough to have sex with him. Nor does she love him enough to work through their issues. 



> I'm not going to keep trying to break through. I give up.


That is disappointing.



> "My wife doesn't love me" is a self fulfilling prophecy IMO. A wife can feel resentment, rejection, and chip on shoulder and it is not a turn on.


And a wife demonstrating no interest and multiple rejections is not a turn-on either. 

What exactly leads you to believe that she loves him (as opposed to what he represents or can do for her)? What, beyond her words, demonstrates this in your eyes?


----------



## john117

BB,

I'm not talking sulking like a teenager turned down at the prom dance. Just like everything else they know. They may not read the visible signs but they can read a calendar. People give out lots of non verbal clues when they interact with others. Sure one can keep their game face on while silently chanting "Athol Kay Help Us" but the end result is visible. Stop talking to her for a week except for emergencies or critical things, well, that will get you noticed.

The "doing something" comment is just that, it's like sanctions against a sovereign country or a million dollar fine on an oil company. We appear to be doing something but really... 

For several years I often slept separately from my wife due to child issues (DesignDaughter slept the night at 5 ). That never impacted our intimate life. Plus her parents lived separately for years as he was posted in city after city while her mom stayed home. You want to show discontent? Lay down on the bed and watch Netflix on your phone, ignoring her completely. And tell her why. 

I'm not a big supporter of CSA repressed memories so... Either one has them or does not. And one needs to deal with them. I had a girlfriend (quotes optional) that had survived CSA and other things recently so I knew exactly what her boundaries were, and even after 30 years she never recovered. Never changed, never married. She's working in a big college in the UK... And she did therapy. And a doctorate in behavioral psychology. 

Such things should have been way more forthcoming from day one with the idea that working thru them would be expected. People don't just shut down. 

Harsh as it may sound I would bring up the therapy issue daily. Not the intimacy part. She may be in tears daily, or she may harden up or clam up. I know divorce is your least option but I would seriously look into a competent lawyer to go for full custody if you live in an enlightened state. At least separation just to stir the pot. I'm not saying this lightly, but you're not in my situation. So... 

Any corrective action has to be suitable in force to achieve the desired outcome. Otherwise you end up with the Iraq Iran war, ten years of fighting with neither side understanding why.


----------



## jld

Well, maybe it is just me, but I pretty much tell dh whatever I am thinking or feeling, even if I do it repeatedly. I tell him that when I am done feeling/thinking it, then I will stop talking about it. 

And btw, maybe he could help me with that, esp. through active listening, so I can get over it sooner? 

Just telling someone to stop expressing themselves does not usually solve the problem. Solving the problem solves the problem.

I would encourage you to be as transparent with your wife as possible. She can feel the heat. It can make her get going, or break up. 

Some consistent transparency can bring things to a head, I think. Don't be afraid to go for it.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Of course sex is the expectation on this site specifically and for marriage in general but we could turn this all around and say that if he does not love her enough to want her without the sexual frequency he desires than he does not really love her.

I am really about sick of this whole stupid she does not love you unless she wants to f*ck you argument.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> So she knows. My problem is I have not set a timeline. I have stopped doing extra things for her,ie valentines day, starting her car in morning etc. I suppose I coukd tell her why I'm not doing the extra things , but she hadn't asked and I think just proclaiming why I have stopped is like screaming "notice me!"_Posted via Mobile Device_


I am going to call crap on your statement that "she knows."

You had that discussion, then just recently spent a whole evening cuddling the heck out of her and then going to sleep without initiating. You don't think that send the message that things are just fine? You talk big to her, but refuse to make her truly uncomfortable. You give her what she needs but refuse to enforce your boundaries. 

You are lying to her through your actions. That poor behavior is on you.


----------



## john117

Love can't overcome resentment unless one believes marriage love is unconditional. It's not, not in my book at least.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> No, it's not "projecting". It is *identifying*. His wife recently became aware of CSA. CSA causes ambivalence @ sex.
> 
> BB takes the sexlessness personally- as if his W is saying "I DON"T LOVE YOU".
> 
> BB is *wrong* to take it personally or to interpret it as lack of LOVE.


As I have thought about your posts, I agree with this. Because of the harm sex causes, she (and likely Blonde) don't equate the two.

I do think her unwillingness to address things demonstrates a limit to her love. I also think that her actions are causing him to lose his love for her.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

> Maybe marriage triggered this?


BB32 - Part of my is very frustrated at you ignoring things that you just don't want to do. I have noted the CSA issue from the beginning. Int he threads you deleted, it was noted that marriage and children often change how a CSA survivor views the relationship. Yet you gloss over it. You were told this stuff before, so stop pretending like it is all new.

Go read a Haunted Marriage. Find other books. Learn about this stuff.


----------



## Anon Pink

TAG, I don't think "a limit to her love" is as accurate as "a limit in how she can comfortably express her love"

I do believe she loves him. I also believe she assumed that his love for her would enable her to express her love only in the ways she is comfortable.

As is happening in my marriage... Well that's not good enough for me.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> TAG, I don't think "a limit to her love" is as accurate as "a limit in how she can comfortably express her love"
> 
> I do believe she loves him. I also believe she assumed that his love for her would enable her to express her love only in the ways she is comfortable.
> 
> As is happening in my marriage... Well that's not good enough for me.


Perhaps. But she was comfortable expressing her love in that way in the beginning. Now, she has decided (unilaterally) that her discomfort is more important than his. That says something about how far she will go out of love.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Everything Boston has said that he told her always seems to me like staying on the edge of talking.

I'm not happy, I can't go on like this forever, you need to resolve your issues, you need to be honest with me, do you love me?, etc..

I am going to label this as the turtle approach to problem solving.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> As I have thought about your posts, I agree with this. Because of the harm sex causes, she (and likely Blonde) don't equate the two.
> 
> I do think her unwillingness to address things demonstrates a limit to her love. I also think that her actions are causing him to lose his love for her.


limit to her love towards me? or more like a cap on how she can love a person?

intereting..


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> limit to her love towards me? or more like a cap on how she can love a person?
> 
> intereting..


Well, when you ignore the CSA, it will skew your perspective. If you consider it, you can recognize that she may have issues that prevent her from expressing it in certain ways. The limit of her love is her unwillingness to even try to address this.

I am curious why you refuse to delve into the CSA. You routinely dismiss it, waive it off, and otherwise ignore it. Why?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Well, when you ignore the CSA, it will skew your perspective. If you consider it, you can recognize that she may have issues that prevent her from expressing it in certain ways. The limit of her love is her unwillingness to even try to address this.
> 
> I am curious why you refuse to delve into the CSA. You routinely dismiss it, waive it off, and otherwise ignore it. Why?


No way I dismiss it man. I just am not going to force her to talk about it. I'm sure a CSA survivor on here could help, but I dont think pressing her to talk about it will work.

Read about it secretly? maybe tahts a good idea. I would just need to hide the book. I dont want her thinking I think shes damaged goods because i'm reading it. Blonde could you assist on this? I think a CSA survivor has concerns about others perception of her.


----------



## MEM2020

*When needs collide*

Tall,
No doubt I have been 'skewing' the argument by consistently downplaying CSA as a driver. 

There are two 'symptoms' Boston's wife consistently displays which causes me to do so. 
1. She frequently lashes out at him for no apparent reason 
2. She is blatantly deceptive/dishonest with B about what's going on in her head

The latest example of (1) had to do with how he plays with their daughter. 

The one clear theme, the one consistent thread that runs through her behavior is indifference to how B feels. 

That doesn't mean she doesn't do nice things for him because clearly she does. What it does mean is that she does what she wants, regardless of what that means for B. 

Reinforcing that, her parents marriage seems to be: Husband as servant, not H as partner. 

These are the stories that play out later where the W has an affair. And that's because this selfish disregard for how your partner feels, gradually grows. 




Tall Average Guy said:


> Well, when you ignore the CSA, it will skew your perspective. If you consider it, you can recognize that she may have issues that prevent her from expressing it in certain ways. The limit of her love is her unwillingness to even try to address this.
> 
> I am curious why you refuse to delve into the CSA. You routinely dismiss it, waive it off, and otherwise ignore it. Why?


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Just be careful not to get lost in this maze. Ultimately your W is responsible for her own mental health. 

It IS emotionally corrosive to love someone who doesn't love you back. And while Johns comment about sex and your self esteem is true. It is equally true that he makes that statement from atop a foundation of:
- A successful career, both in terms of accomplishment and finances
- A successful stint as father 
- A positive and sexual marriage for the first 20+ years

And he has the modest sex drive of a 50 year old. And even when you combine all that, his situation is adversely impacting his quality of life. 

If I throw John back in time to where you are, his response to that situation is very different. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> No way I dismiss it man. I just am not going to force her to talk about it. I'm sure a CSA survivor on here could help, but I dont think pressing her to talk about it will work.
> 
> Read about it secretly? maybe tahts a good idea. I would just need to hide the book. I dont want her thinking I think shes damaged goods because i'm reading it. Blonde could you assist on this? I think a CSA survivor has concerns about others perception of her.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> No way I dismiss it man. I just am not going to force her to talk about it. I'm sure a CSA survivor on here could help, but I dont think pressing her to talk about it will work.


My point is that you can't look at her actions like you would others. CSA often skews how sex is perceived. 



> Read about it secretly? maybe tahts a good idea. I would just need to hide the book. I dont want her thinking I think shes damaged goods because i'm reading it. Blonde could you assist on this? I think a CSA survivor has concerns about others perception of her.


My issue is you have been at this for months and have not even taken a look into it. Educate yourself. I guess I don't understand why, if something like this had happened to her, you have no interest in seeing what, if anything, you can do to be supportive.

I agree with MEM's point that she is ultimately responsible for her mental health. But I don't see how ignoring the elephant standing in the corner is going to help either of you.


----------



## BostonBruins32

*Re: When needs collide*



MEM11363 said:


> Tall,
> No doubt I have been 'skewing' the argument by consistently downplaying CSA as a driver.
> 
> There are two 'symptoms' Boston's wife consistently displays which causes me to do so.
> 1. She frequently lashes out at him for no apparent reason
> 2. She is blatantly deceptive/dishonest with B about what's going on in her head
> 
> The latest example of (1) had to do with how he plays with their daughter.
> 
> The one clear theme, the one consistent thread that runs through her behavior is indifference to how B feels.
> 
> That doesn't mean she doesn't do nice things for him because clearly she does. What it does mean is that she does what she wants, regardless of what that means for B.
> 
> Reinforcing that, her parents marriage seems to be: Husband as servant, not H as partner.
> 
> These are the stories that play out later where the W has an affair. And that's because this selfish disregard for how your partner feels, gradually grows.


explain the affair piece of your explanation?


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> Just be careful not to get lost in this maze. Ultimately your W is responsible for her own mental health.
> 
> It IS emotionally corrosive to love someone who doesn't love you back. And while Johns comment about sex and your self esteem is true. It is equally true that he makes that statement from atop a foundation of:
> - A successful career, both in terms of accomplishment and finances
> - A successful stint as father
> - A positive and sexual marriage for the first 20+ years
> 
> And he has the modest sex drive of a 50 year old. And even when you combine all that, his situation is adversely impacting his quality of life.
> 
> If I throw John back in time to where you are, his response to that situation is very different.


I actually struggled with that a few months ago. The rejection and criticism squashed my self esteem. Well I let it squash my self esteem. I'm probably a weak guy or something, but it has taken a real lot of work to get some of that back. There is a heavy amount of outcome independence and self awareness that has to take place to shed yourself of insecurities built up over time. 

I've come to realize that the things you mention above can reenforce that I am indeed or could be successful. I think you need to recognize those things as additional measures of success in order to carry yourself in a healthy manner in a marriage. So while I may not get words of affirmation from my wife regarding my fitness or parenting, I have to just trust that I'm doing the right thing. This is a very hard step change. 

Funny you say that about loving someone who doesnt love you back. I'm not saying she doesnt love me (Blonde do you hear me), but I think I loved her too hard or too much or with too much dependence for a while. Fresh out of a David Schnarch book, I was doing it wrong. 

Man, I just want to see her bleed (figuratively). Feel a pulse. See some empathy. Hear some understanding. Its funny, when I met her I thought she was more sensitive and emotional than anyone I ever dated. I'd actually say its just the opposite. She's far colder than most women I've met. And shes colder to her family and close friends, so its definately just who she is (for some reason).


----------



## MEM2020

US,
Your post about Blonde gave me pause. 

I feel the same way about you. Even though we often disagree, I believe you add a sincere and valuable perspective here. 

Unfortunately I am at times prone to step from disagreeing to being disagreeable.

That said, my W is a practicing Catholic. Always has been. As her non religious spouse - I support her by going to Church with her. 

And yet, when discussing 'right and wrong', M2 makes her case on the merits of the case itself. Maybe this is because she has confidence in her beliefs. 

Blonde may not realize it, but who a post begins with: 
From the perspective of a solidly moral Christian wife....

This isn't:
- my position has intrinsic merit. But rather, 
- my position has merit because of who I am 




usmarriedguy said:


> I think Blonde deserves more respect and credit than she is currently getting here.
> 
> She is, if not the lowest drive at least probably fairly representative of the average drive woman and who probably developed more interest in sex primarily to enhance her marriage.
> 
> I think when she uses a word like "sexing" her intent is to leave a bit of a distasteful feeling in order to show how a wife who does not view sex as everything might feel.
> 
> I think that she adds an important perspective to this site.


----------



## john117

Some thoughts to add to MEM's most excellent post above. 

My first years with my wife were all work for me, college and work for her, then children and work and more college for both of us. In other words neither of us stood still. We did not take vacations for a decade, it was that hectic. 

We simply did not have time to build resentments or hidden agendas towards each other. Quality time was taking the girls to Chuck e Cheese's or buying baby clothes with our school's logo at the student center (much to my chagrin neither of my girls even applied to our alma mater lolz)

Stressful as it was it really bonded us. My stuff was more reading and writing so I had the girls more of the time, her stuff was more work and I helped out. There were days we'd come home put the girls to bed and go to bed ourselves at 8 pm. Dates were at this college cafeteria or that hangout (the horror of being a grad student at 35)... And our sex life was pretty decent through all this. 

So, maybe you both need to go out of your comfort zone. It's easy to build resentments when all you have is a preschooler and lot of time to ponder. Come home from work and everyone has plenty of time to be ticked off with each other. 

Ironically my marital troubles were fueled by exactly the same issue - too much free time... Initially at least. Then stress then BPD then.... You get the idea.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> I actually struggled with that a few months ago. The [perceived] rejection squashed my self esteem.
> 
> Man, I just want to see her bleed (figuratively). Feel a pulse. See some empathy. Hear some understanding. Its *funny, when I met her I thought she was more sensitive and emotional than anyone I ever dated. I'd actually say its just the opposite. She's far colder than most women I've met. And shes colder to her family and close friends, so its definately just who she is (for some reaso*n).


On the above, we could be the same person talking about the same spouse on different marital issues.

Think I might have to amend my suggestions thus far. Maybe reverse them entirely.

Get out now. Constant up and down battle. "Am I asking too much? Am I asking my spouse to be a completely different person? Is what I want from my spouse a fair thing to expect?"

We both have answered those questions. No. Pretty much yes. Yes.

Then a step from the spouse and the sun shines again.

Then a step back and the clouds come and questions begin again.

I'm sorry Boston.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> On the above, we could be the same person talking about the same spouse on different marital issues.
> 
> Think I might have to amend my suggestions thus far. Maybe reverse them entirely.
> 
> Get out now. Constant up and down battle. "Am I asking too much? Am I asking my spouse to be a completely different person? Is what I want from my spouse a fair thing to expect?"
> 
> We both have answered those questions. No. Pretty much yes. Yes.
> 
> Then a step from the spouse and the sun shines again.
> 
> Then a step back and the clouds come and questions begin again.
> 
> I'm sorry Boston.


At the risk of sounding slow, I don't get what you're saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
I want to differentiate - between two different things:
1. The desire/need for external validation AND
2. Our inherent vulnerability to the behavior of a spouse

The more secure you are, the less you 'need' of (1) because you trust your own sense of contribution. 

There is no escaping (2). Genuine love is intertwined with vulnerability. Which is why BOTH spouses in a marriage have to demonstrate kindness, and sacrifice and empathy to each other. 

And maybe this started out being about sex. But it's evolved to way more than that. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> I actually struggled with that a few months ago. The rejection and criticism squashed my self esteem. Well I let it squash my self esteem. I'm probably a weak guy or something, but it has taken a real lot of work to get some of that back. There is a heavy amount of outcome independence and self awareness that has to take place to shed yourself of insecurities built up over time.
> 
> I've come to realize that the things you mention above can reenforce that I am indeed or could be successful. I think you need to recognize those things as additional measures of success in order to carry yourself in a healthy manner in a marriage. So while I may not get words of affirmation from my wife regarding my fitness or parenting, I have to just trust that I'm doing the right thing. This is a very hard step change.
> 
> Funny you say that about loving someone who doesnt love you back. I'm not saying she doesnt love me (Blonde do you hear me), but I think I loved her too hard or too much or with too much dependence for a while. Fresh out of a David Schnarch book, I was doing it wrong.
> 
> Man, I just want to see her bleed (figuratively). Feel a pulse. See some empathy. Hear some understanding. Its funny, when I met her I thought she was more sensitive and emotional than anyone I ever dated. I'd actually say its just the opposite. She's far colder than most women I've met. And shes colder to her family and close friends, so its definately just who she is (for some reason).


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> Blonde may not realize it, but who a post begins with:
> From the perspective of a solidly moral Christian wife....
> 
> This isn't:
> - my position has intrinsic merit. But rather,
> - my position has merit because of who I am


Excuse me?

Way to twist my words again Mem. Sincerely, I hope you don't do this with W & K!!!

That is an example of stating my framework up front. Because of my beliefs as a Christian I am vocal AGAINST any 180 suggestions that involve flirting. And I most definitely disapprove of your threat toward your wife that you would "outsource" sex.

My morals are deeply grounded in my faith. And I am not ashamed to say so. 

BB, my advice is don't flirt, don't cheat. Divorce if you are not happy. Period. 

Before the divorce try this retrouvaille.org perhaps it will help.


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
I don't want to twist your words or make you feel unwelcome. 

This is a sincere attempt to understand what you are recommending. 

Other than saying 'in words' that the status quo is not acceptable, what actions do you believe he should take to get his W to recognize that his needs aren't being met? 

For example, do you think it unfair/immoral for B to refuse to:
1. Have more children until the marriage is a healthy and positive environment for him?
2. Get a larger house (same reasoning)
3. Vacations 

Ideally the way this stuff works is:
- You tell spouse certain things are not acceptable 
- You continue to be patient and loving and understanding right up to the point where you believe that a viable marriage is not possible at which point you tell them you are divorcing them. 

Now here's the tricky part. At that point many people will say: I will fix this/that/the other thing ASAP. I know you 'said' in words that it wasn't acceptable, but your actions said you were still committed, you didn't seem angry and you were still loving towards me. So my gut told me you weren't as unhappy about this stuff as you had said 'in words'. 





Blonde said:


> Excuse me?
> 
> Way to twist my words again Mem. Sincerely, I hope you don't do this with W & K!!!
> 
> That is an example of stating my framework up front. Because of my beliefs as a Christian I am vocal AGAINST any 180 suggestions that involve flirting. And I most definitely disapprove of your threat toward your wife that you would "outsource" sex.
> 
> My morals are deeply grounded in my faith. And I am not ashamed to say so.
> 
> BB, my advice is don't flirt, don't cheat. Divorce if you are not happy. Period.
> 
> Before the divorce try this retrouvaille.org perhaps it will help.


----------



## BostonBruins32

well last night:

Could be percieved as good, or nothing, or bad.

I went to bed at 10, dead tired. She came to bed at 12 (her normal time is 11-12, vs I am usually pretty close to that). She comes to bed, 99% of the time her coming in wakes me. I woke up this time went to get water then back to bed. I come back, she slides close, rubs my chest, her leg over my leg just in her underwear (usually pants). THats her initiation, and I bit. 

I cant help but feel skeptical about how things play out now for another week or month. meaning that it felt good last night, and I'd much prefer this with my wife than taking care of myself. 

On the flip side, I need to think about how to action this going forward. I'll never know if she was just in the mood or if she thought "gosh its been a month i bet he needs this". She wasnt ovulating, so this was a more 'off' time for her to be interested. 

So, not to sound like a teen who doesnt know what to do next, but what to do next?

-Should I compliment how good last night was
-should I ignore the topic
-should I initiate in like 5 days
-should I ride out another month
-Should I leverage this to have a bigger discussion

The one thing I will say is that I will not be doing "extra" things forr her because of this. The car starting, the random card buying, the over beta husband does not make an appearance just because i was offered a session. I dont mean to make a sex session so complex, but..my marriage is complex.

PS, I(we) cracked the bottom of the headboard. so this session cost me money too. dammit


----------



## jld

Does it have to be this hard, BB? How about just telling her what you want to tell her, just whatever is in your heart that you want to share with her? 

Or show her with your body what you want her to know. Sometimes the most meaningful communication is non-verbal.

I do not think you need schemes from other people for how to deal with your wife. I think you need an open, sincere heart, and a willingness to be strong when she is weak. 

Honestly, what do _you _think you should do?


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Does it have to be this hard, BB? How about just telling her what you want to tell her, just whatever is in your heart that you want to share with her?
> 
> Or show her with your body what you want her to know. Sometimes the most meaningful communication is non-verbal.
> 
> I do not think you need schemes from other people for how to deal with your wife. I think you need an open, sincere heart, and a willingness to be strong when she is weak.
> 
> Honestly, what do _you _think you should do?


I'm going to act like I have been. I want this to avoid seeming like a reward sex situation . I don't mean to make it difficult. Last night felt good but it dordnt resolve anything. I was just trying to think about if there is some assemblance of progress that could be made from this. 

Remember, I pester you guys because that's what the sight is for. My wife gets a much less analytical version of me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I don't think you are pestering anyone. I just want to see you have more confidence in your own ability to be the man in your marriage.

For a thread to hit near a hundred pages, I think a lot of people must be working out their own issues here. But that does not mean their issues are your issues. 

I would just like you to have increased confidence in yourself at the end of the day, and not dependence on a group of people, myself included, who mean well, but cannot possibly know all the details and nuances of your marriage like you do.

Again, I would urge you to be transparent and genuine. Genuine, genuine, genuine.


----------



## john117

The proof in the pudding is whether she is receptive to your initiation in a reasonable amount of time, and whether it is genuine and sustained. I fell for it in the same way as well last year only to be dealt Biblical drought afterwards.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> The proof in the pudding is whether she is receptive to your initiation in a reasonable amount of time, and whether it is genuine and sustained. I fell for it in the same way as well last year only to be dealt Biblical drought afterwards.


This happened two times recently. Both times I came back to try like 4 days later. Then I avoided any attempts for over a month. Essentially I have to find the right "period of time to attempt" ratio.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> This happened two times recently. Both times I came back to try like 4 days later. Then I avoided any attempts for over a month. Essentially I have to find the right "period of time to attempt" ratio.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or you could just be transparent and open-hearted and not try to manipulate anything.


----------



## naiveonedave

I would try to attempt this weekend, every night until you get some. She started her part, now it is up to you to start doing yours. If she shoots you down 3 days in a row, then it is discussion time.

Also, don't ask, just start with loving foreplay and don't give up easily. Make her have to say no after you have started....


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Or you could just be transparent and open-hearted and not try to manipulate anything.


I'm not sure when you joined this thread, but I've had this heart to heart with her a number of times. Very very clear about how it makes me feel when she would reject and what my expectations are from her regarding her willingness to talk to me and or address issues. 

Very very open hearted, many times.


----------



## usmarriedguy

MEM11363 said:


> - my position has merit because of who I am


Yes I think a lot of us where a bit put off over that line 

I think it is easy to assume she meant that she has the moral high ground but it could be that she was simply describing what the basis of her point of view is. 

In other words: She views this as a person who believes very strongly in Christian morality. 

(oh, I just read Blonde's reply -there you go)


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm not sure when you joined this thread, but I've had this heart to heart with her a number of times. Very very clear about how it makes me feel when she would reject and what my expectations are from her regarding her willingness to talk to me and or address issues.
> 
> Very very open hearted, many times.


Midway through. Just not sure I can do the first fifty pages.

Just keep it up with the transparency. I do not think her conscience can survive consistent, non-manipulative transparency.


----------



## jld

usmarriedguy said:


> Yes I think a lot of us where a bit put off over that line
> 
> I think it is easy to assume she meant that she has the moral high ground but it could be that she was simply describing what the basis of her point of view is.
> 
> In other words: She views this as a person who believes very strongly in Christian morality.
> 
> (oh, I just read Blonde's reply -there you go)


Why not just look past it?

Blonde is a very hurt woman. If you can look past that, there is much in her posts to learn from. 

If you get turned off by tone, from anyone, you miss whatever truth there might be in a post.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I can certainly see that you have told her how it makes you feel Boston. 

What I am unclear about is if you have actually worked out any specific way to resolve the problem or simply left it open ended for her to resolve.

5 days -Are you serious? What do you not get about her idea of frequency? 

Try two weeks

If you can at least get back to a regular pattern that will be a start to fixing this thing.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm not sure when you joined this thread, but I've had this heart to heart with her a number of times. Very very clear about how it makes me feel when she would reject and what my expectations are from her regarding her willingness to talk to me and or address issues.
> 
> Very very open hearted, many times.


Another thing: these do not have to be long, drawn out talks. Something as simple as, "I feel hurt when I hear that," or "I really want to feel every night the way I felt last night," are enough to keep her conscience working on her.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> This happened two times recently. Both times I came back to try like 4 days later. Then I avoided any attempts for over a month. Essentially I have to find the right "period of time to attempt" ratio.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Careful time series analysis of the raw data via SPSS indicated the same results as above, desired frequency of once a month, with any effort to 'gap the chasm' being perceived as 'demands for daily'.

If she's receptive to more frequent encounters in a sustainable fashion then proclaim success otherwise...


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> 5 days -Are you serious? What do you not get about her idea of frequency?
> 
> 
> 
> Try two weeks
> 
> 
> 
> If you can at least get back to a regular pattern that will be a start to fixing this thing.



Regular partners have a tendency of elastically stretching to the LD's desired frequency. Go for two weeks and you'll be telling her that two weeks is the desired rate, it will be for a couple months then back to once a month with some well timed events...

Tell her what you want, not what she wants to hear.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Tell her what you want, not what she wants to hear.


:iagree:


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> well last night:
> 
> Could be percieved as good, or nothing, or bad.
> 
> I went to bed at 10, dead tired. She came to bed at 12 (her normal time is 11-12, vs I am usually pretty close to that). She comes to bed, 99% of the time her coming in wakes me. I woke up this time went to get water then back to bed. I come back, she slides close, rubs my chest, her leg over my leg just in her underwear (usually pants). THats her initiation, and I bit.
> 
> I cant help but feel skeptical about how things play out now for another week or month. meaning that it felt good last night, and I'd much prefer this with my wife than taking care of myself.
> 
> On the flip side, I need to think about how to action this going forward. I'll never know if she was just in the mood or if she thought "gosh its been a month i bet he needs this". She wasnt ovulating, so this was a more 'off' time for her to be interested.
> 
> So, not to sound like a teen who doesnt know what to do next, but what to do next?
> 
> -Should I compliment how good last night was
> -should I ignore the topic
> -should I initiate in like 5 days
> -should I ride out another month
> -Should I leverage this to have a bigger discussion
> 
> The one thing I will say is that I will not be doing "extra" things forr her because of this. The car starting, the random card buying, the over beta husband does not make an appearance just because i was offered a session. I dont mean to make a sex session so complex, but..my marriage is complex.
> 
> PS, I(we) cracked the bottom of the headboard. so this session cost me money too. dammit


Awesome about breaking the bed! That's always fun!

How did things go afterward? Cuddles, loving murmurs, continued touching...?

I would suggest you try again tonight. And here is why...

The oxytocin is still a fresh memory for her. The endorphins of the emotional connection are still floating around. If you two cuddled and were loving as you fell asleep in each other's arms, she has the strongest loving feeling for you today. So let her know tonight it will happen again. This is not asking this is telling her.

I saw US suggested two weeks, John suggested 5 days... Hell no, tonight!

Marriage should not work like this. Spouses should not have to analyze and over think when can sex happen. If you believe this, then act/behave as if it is already true. Believe it for yourself and be shocked if she doesn't also believe it to be true. Having sex because your spouse wants it is not going to harm or hurt anyone!


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> Awesome about breaking the bed! That's always fun!
> 
> I saw US suggested two weeks, John suggested 5 days... *Hell no, tonight!*
> 
> *Marriage should not work like this. Spouses should not have to analyze and over think when can sex happen. *If you believe this, then act/behave as if it is already true. Believe it for yourself and be shocked if she doesn't also believe it to be true.* Having sex because your spouse wants it is not going to harm or hurt anyone!*


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## usmarriedguy

john117 said:


> Regular partners have a tendency of elastically stretching to the LD's desired frequency. Go for two weeks and you'll be telling her that two weeks is the desired rate, it will be for a couple months then back to once a month with some well timed events...
> 
> Tell her what you want, not what she wants to hear.



I do agree with that John to some extent. More than once a week is most likely going to be a stretch for her for the present time being though. 

But I also think that they need to break this current cycle of:
they have sex
he initiates 2 - 5 days later 
she rejects a couple of times
he feels rejected and does not initiate 
she initiates a month later

He needs to stop that.

Oh, I just read Anon's suggestion,
Sure -good advice, go for it -is worth a shot.

I just think that if that does not work he needs to do something to take back some control of the situation. 

I was also a fan of her idea to be more dominant -a little experimentation could not hurt.


----------



## 1812overture

Anon Pink said:


> tonight!
> 
> Marriage should not work like this. Spouses should not have to analyze and over think when can sex happen. If you believe this, then act/behave as if it is already true. Believe it for yourself and be shocked if she doesn't also believe it to be true. Having sex because your spouse wants it is not going to harm or hurt anyone!


I agree, but for US's reasons


> But I also think that they need to break this current cycle of:
> they have sex
> he initiates 2 - 5 days later
> she rejects a couple of times
> he feels rejected and does not initiate
> she initiates a month later


Worst case, she rejects you. You KNOW you can handle that, but it permits you to say "There are two problems with our sex life. 1 - you never initiate, 2 - I'm rejected over and over again, for no good reasons. Last night, you took a step to solve the first, tonight was two steps back. Why not now? Why not? Why not? You seemed to enjoy it last night. Did you? Then why not now? Why not? Why not."

I surely wish I had addressed this problem years ago, in much the way you are. It may not be too late, but we've got a host of other issues, as well. Initiate tonight, and you are able to use this week as an example. "You enjoyed this week, right?" "Let's make every week like this." "I want you to initiate more often, and I want you to reject me for superfluous reasons less. Like this past week." "This is our new normal, I am sure you will agree."

You don't have to be mean about it. It doesn't have to be put out or get out. You acknowledge her effort, but don't reward it until it is sustained and truly addresses the bedroom problems.

It's a small step, so she gets positive reinforcement by acknowledging it. If it is sustained and/or she take other steps, then it can be rewarded. And, in that case, explain the reward. When you start the car again for her on a cold morning, tell her why.


----------



## john117

Anon, your suggestion is great assing we are talking about mostly normal people, not hardcore LD's.

The latter would not care about oxytocin even if you spike her coffee creamer with it, their mind will see another attempt a day or two later and the shields will go up. Such an action will be validation that he only cares about sex FROM HER VIEWPOINT.

So it may make sense to bring up the issue verbally first and see what her response is, then f the response is reasonable to try a cuddle-thon first tonight to indicate that it's not all about sex, then follow up as needed.

If she takes the attitude of "I got my juices for a month see you in April then you got your answer.


----------



## usmarriedguy

That is way to timid for my taste. If you want to go swimming just jump in. Do not dangle your toes in the water to see if it is warm enough. The worst that could happen is she would say no and that would give him the opportunity to mention that he is just trying different ways to try and get a healthy sex life back on track.


----------



## john117

Repeat after me... We are not dealing with typical desires and thought patterns here... 

If we were it would be a no brainer. Also we (BB ) are fishing for insights and hidden data, as direct approaches are less than fruitful.


----------



## jld

And why does she have to initiate? I am not sure I do. Okay, maybe I do. I don't really keep track.

You are the one who wants it. As long as there is willingness, or a possibility of willingness, go for it!


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Absolutely nothing has changed. 

And nothing will change until a discussion takes place during which:
You define your minimum acceptable threshold for staying in the marriage and if it were me I wouldn't start with a sexual quota. I would start with:

For this marriage to be viable, I need to feel like I remain *fully visible* to you even when:
- You are annoyed 
- You don't feel like doing what I want
- You don't feel like doing what you know is fair/kind/decent

From now on, when you lash out at me I expect not only an apology, but some act of contrition showing that you realize how hurtful that is. 

And if you do so in front of our daughter, she needs to hear both the apology and the offered act, because I am not ok with you teaching her that it's ok to act like that, and it's ok to treat me like that. 

Apologies, have been treated like marriage counseling. You are happy to receive the benefit of them, but when you're the one who has to do the work, you immediately lose interest. 

Your indifference to being hurtful obviously extends to our sex life. It feels to me like if you aren't 'in the mood' you aren't willing to let me get you 'in the mood'. This is part of the 'me me me' theme. 

I have no interest in sex that doesn't feel good to you. I simply ask that you disable the 'me me me' circuit for 10 minutes or so when I initiate. Seriously. If you aren't feelin it in ten minutes, I will stop and without any hard feelings I'll go finish up elsewhere. 

I'm no longer willing to engage in a sexual relationship that is less than weekly in frequency. And a flat out 'no' is no longer acceptable. If you are going to work with responsive desire, than we can handle this in the same considerate manner we do other type requests. Sorry, tonight's not good, can we connect tomorrow? 

And I won't accept the random monthly thing any longer. So when you are ready to try to have a 'real' sexual relationship let me know. In the meantime, please don't initiate as I don't like rejecting you, I know how that feels and prefer not to do it to you. 







BostonBruins32 said:


> This happened two times recently. Both times I came back to try like 4 days later. Then I avoided any attempts for over a month. Essentially I have to find the right "period of time to attempt" ratio.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

The speech above needs to be delivered in its entirety and both parties should comprehend what is being said and meant. 

What happens after that should be a microcosm of things to come: 

1. Permanent improvement
2. Temporary improvement
3. No improvement 

MEM's points above are about as good as I can think. May I suggest delivering them in a neutral place to avoid meltdowns?

Stop every few words to make sure she understands what your expectations are but don't let her debate point by point. Make sure she understands this ahead of time. This is no Debate 101.


----------



## Anon Pink

Alright Boston....

1. memorize MEMs speech

2. delivery it very soon

3. Report back.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> Alright Boston....
> 
> 1. memorize MEMs speech
> 
> 2. delivery it very soon
> 
> 3. Report back.


...and have your wife have another reason NOT to have sex with you and feel coerced.

I vote for shut up and deal with it as long as you have said what your expectations are.

She is NOT DEAF, she already heard all your complaints.
Now the more you talk the *weaker you look*.

BB you control you and she controls her.

Try for one moment to put yourself in her shoes.

The one thing I do agree with that was recently said is that when you are in the right mindset...
TRY..TRY..TRY..TRY until she has sex with and then try try try again and get sex again and repeat. Until you get to an acceptable frequency.

After all she cannot fault you for trying.

Men like you and I do have to stop self rejection when the time is right and we have addressed from our end all issues.


----------



## skype

Trying2figureitout said:


> ...and have your wife have another reason NOT to have sex with you and feel coerced
> 
> I vote for shut up and deal with it as long as you have said what your expectations are.
> 
> She is NOT DEAF, she already heard all your complaints.
> Now the more you talk the weaker you look.
> 
> BB you control you and she controls her.
> 
> Try for one moment to put yourself in her shoes.


No way, T2. He has to capitalize on this, not go into indifferent mode.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

skype said:


> No way, T2. He has to capitalize on this, not go into indifferent mode.


I disagree obviously. Talk is cheap and she already heard his issues.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

skype said:


> No way, T2. He has to capitalize on this, not go into indifferent mode.


I disagree obviously. Talk is cheap and she already listened to his issues.

People are more authentic when they decide on their own to do something
His wife needs to *want* to have sex with him for him to be happy.

What is so hard for all of you to understand in that basic fact on most men. To want to be wanted and appreciated.
I think badgering is setting you up for permanent failure and short term gain, rather than long term success.and questioning whether she really likes sex with you at every turn.

I made sure my wife fully understood this concept. So far she is complying with my wish and we are progressing back to sex one day.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree obviously. Talk is cheap and she already heard his issues.



Split the difference - deliver one last speech and be done with it. If she care to turn it around she will. If she's card carrying hardcore LD she won't. 

Much to be gained here physically and informationally. T2 is right about the coercion part. You can't talk someone to bed.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
The difference here is that this isn't just 'talk'. This is Boundary enforcement. 

We aren't going to have sex anymore until....

And I wish everyone would stop with the coercion theme. Any meaningful discussion of needs has a coercive undertone. And that is true even if we remove any statement of consequence from the equation. For example: 

Soon as I say 'It is really important to me that......'

M2 thinks: I know how I feel when I tell MEM what my needs are and he doesn't prioritize them. It impacts how I feel about him adversely. Add enough of those up and I start to feel AND act differently. 

That said, no one is more keenly aware of the difference between sex as:
- Something you do 'to' the other persons body and
- Something you do 'with' a life partner. 

And that's why I added that bit about:
'If after 10 minutes your responsive desire hasn't kicked in, we'll stop with no hard feelings'. 

And even that first 10 minutes - when done right - physically feels nice to the LD spouse. 

But all of this is based on trust and belief. If they believe their partner is only interested in doing this WITH them, then they will feel safe in the knowledge that if their body doesn't respond, their spouse will stop. And stop without anger. 

It does require the LD spouse to make a small but critical leap. And that leap is into the world of being a partner who cares about their spouses feelings. That leap - leaves them open to connecting while their HD partner is engaging in foreplay-lite. It makes that experience positive - a proactive act of kindness. And most of the time, that mindset allows their body to respond. 

If instead they adopt a passive and indifferent tolerance to what is happening, this won't work. 




john117 said:


> Split the difference - deliver one last speech and be done with it. If she care to turn it around she will. If she's card carrying hardcore LD she won't.
> 
> Much to be gained here physically and informationally. T2 is right about the coercion part. You can't talk someone to bed.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> Much to be gained here physically and informationally. T2 is right about the coercion part. You can't talk someone to bed.


T2 is not right. He is misinformed and mistaken.

He is waiting for the pumpkin to turn into a coach instead of hailing a cab.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Anon Pink said:


> T2 is not right. He is misinformed and mistaken.
> 
> He is waiting for the pumpkin to turn into a coach instead of hailing a cab.


Results speak for themselves. BB, listen to T2 and you will get his results...sexless for over 4 years and a wife having an open affair right under your nose.


----------



## john117

I'm talking about one specific aspect of what he said... Not his entire approach. You can't talk someone to bed. You can talk to them and make them see the way there but if and when they choose to go is outside your control. 

You're likely to have good lasting results with two people working towards a common goal rather than one pushing hard and one pushing half hearted, or not at all.

Talking inspires people but actions get the work done. If she's not interested in getting her share of the work done you could have Bobby Knight, Mike Ditka and Jim Wooden talk to her and still nothing will come of it.

Not trying but waiting for her to see the light isn't doing it obviously... I'm not claiming otherwise.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

WorkingOnMe said:


> Results speak for themselves. BB, listen to T2 and you will get his results...sexless for over 4 years and a wife having an open affair right under your nose.


My journey is not finished too early to post final results, again I am happy with my progress.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Trying2figureitout said:


> My journey is not finished too early to post final results, again I am happy with my progress.


Great. Just make sure you point out the pace of your progress so the OP can make a choice about whether to follow your timeline or chose another path.


----------



## MEM2020

QFT

T2's mindset is instructive. 

He won't require his W to stop texting her male friend because he's afraid of being seen as controlling/coercive. 




WorkingOnMe said:


> Great. Just make sure you point out the pace of your progress so the OP can make a choice about whether to follow your timeline or chose another path.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I don't know if there is any real likely hood of fixing this without coercion to some degree. 

Obviously if she was naturally horny they would be having sex or she would be masturbating or having an affair. But none of that seems to be happening. 

The problem is purely mismatched libido and need for affection. 

A person is not just going to think their way to wanting sex without some reason. 

I think mem's list is a good start to working out an agreement as to what each of them needs and expects in the marriage. But probably needs to establish some minimum amount of sex, who initiates, other affection, etc..

Even if the agreement is for once a month I think that is still better than the current situation. 



Once an agreement is established she needs to understand that it is her responsibility to continue just like it is her responsibility to do her half of all the other things it takes to make a family.


----------



## john117

Coercion is easy to implement relatively speaking. It is harder to get the other person to see what you want them to see and act of their own volition.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

usmarriedguy said:


> I don't know if there is any real likely hood of fixing this without coercion to some degree.
> 
> Obviously if she was naturally horny they would be having sex or she would be masturbating or having an affair. But none of that seems to be happening.
> 
> The problem is purely mismatched libido and need for affection.
> 
> A person is not just going to think their way to wanting sex without some reason.
> 
> I think mem's list is a good start to working out an agreement as to what each of them needs and expects in the marriage. But probably needs to establish some minimum amount of sex, who initiates, other affection, etc..
> 
> Even if the agreement is for once a month I think that is still better than the current situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Once an agreement is established she needs to understand that it is her responsibility to continue just like it is her responsibility to do her half of all the other things it takes to make a family.


My way and Mem's way are similar apart from the expectation of an instant turn around.... I made sure my wife knew EXACTLY what I expect and how I felt...much like Mems.

Once I said my piece after several conversations/letters on the topic over 4 years I stopped talking. 

I leave it up to my wife to figure out the details.

Problem I have with more specifics is it makes sex too much like a chore and that she would need to maintain the chore as is indefinitely.

I again am willing to trade years for decades of a better marriage. I think many here expect a quick fix and it ain't happening. Sex is natural and the process of getting it back needs to also be natural IMO.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Stay away from once a month like the plague. It doesn't address the disease which is: fully metastasized selfishness 

The coercion is to get her to SEE YOU as a person, and not a combination human Swiss Army knife / ATM. 

When needs collide and I put M2's first and take care of hers, I don't feel angry irritated, resentful. I feel - loving, satisfied and peaceful. Taking care of her, makes me love her MORE, not less. 

Here's what you'll get for monthly sex:
- A permanent level of frustration and resentment 
- A wife who smugly tells herself that she has now met your need as specified and therefore is fully entitled to the bigger house, the additional kids, and frankly anything else she wants. 

She's either 'into you' in which case a couple times a week will be easy ONCE she recognizes you as a person and not a clever multi-function tool, or she isn't in which case you can accept a lifetime of feeling used, or move on. 

I coerced M2 into seeing me as a person, whose needs matter just like hers do. Everything else happened automagically.....

[/B]


usmarriedguy said:


> I don't know if there is any real likely hood of fixing this without coercion to some degree.
> 
> Obviously if she was naturally horny they would be having sex or she would be masturbating or having an affair. But none of that seems to be happening.
> 
> The problem is purely mismatched libido and need for affection.
> 
> A person is not just going to think their way to wanting sex without some reason.
> 
> I think mem's list is a good start to working out an agreement as to what each of them needs and expects in the marriage. But probably needs to establish some minimum amount of sex, who initiates, other affection, etc..
> 
> Even if the agreement is for once a month I think that is still better than the current situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Once an agreement is established she needs to understand that it is her responsibility to continue just like it is her responsibility to do her half of all the other things it takes to make a family.


----------



## Lyris

The point is, T2, that your wife may never want to have sex with you completely off her own bat. But if, as MEM suggests, she allowed you to spend ten minutes touching her in a way that feels good and works to arouse her, then maybe she WOULD want sex.

That's how responsive desire works. But the LD partner needs to relax into it, and that's a willed action. It comes from the head, not the body.


----------



## jld

You do seem to be in denial, T2.


----------



## usmarriedguy

MEM11363 said:


> Here's what you'll get for monthly sex:


While I agree, 
...all I said was that it is better than his current situation which is sex once a month and a lot of doubt about when the next event will occur. At least there is some set expectations that would have been established and he does would not need to spend so much time wondering. 

By all means push for as much sex as you want. 
And for sure make sure you two are both committed before taking on anymore shared obligations.


----------



## Maricha75

mem11363 said:


> qft
> 
> t2's mindset is instructive.
> 
> He won't require his w to stop texting her _boyfriend_ because he's afraid of being seen as controlling/coercive.


ftfy


----------



## Trying2figureitout

jld said:


> You do seem to be in denial, T2.


I don't think so but you are welcome to your opinion.


----------



## jld

Look, I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you. I bet I am in denial about some things in my life, too. People just want better for you than you seem to want for yourself. 

But yes, it is your life. You get to make the decisions.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

jld said:


> Look, I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you. I bet I am in denial about some things in my life, too. People just want better for you than you seem to want for yourself.
> 
> But yes, it is your life. You get to make the decisions.


Like I have said before I do not want pity...I am smart and capable and can decide to do anything I want.

I am also determined to do my best to turn my sexless marriage around in a way I believe will be most beneficial to both my wife and I.

There is no guarantee of success. But at least its well documented and I have seen positive change along the way.


----------



## jld

I am not pitying you. You have the right to make your own choices, as you are the person bearing the consequences of them.


----------



## MEM2020

US,
I didn't intend to be harsh, your contributions to this thread and others have shaped my thinking in a positive manner. 

I genuinely worry that B2 will continue to act in a non-symbiotic manner unless she is forced to deal with her selfishness. 


B,
When your W is ready to have a discussion about what you want, the best thing to do is provide a boundary and a preference. 

For example: 
Boundary is that once a week is a threshold for remaining in the marriage. Preference is for 3 times a week. You will be fully engaged as long as you see her making a good faith effort to do more than the bare minimum. If she is sick, you of course have no expectations. 

And it's also true that after 4 years of her conveniently timed and clearly preemptive head, stomach and toenail maladies: unless she is hospitalized, a month that doesn't end with at least 4 instances of sex will be viewed as blatant a violation of her commitment to prioritize you. 






usmarriedguy said:


> While I agree,
> ...all I said was that it is better than his current situation which is sex once a month and a lot of doubt about when the next event will occur. At least there is some set expectations that would have been established and he does would not need to spend so much time wondering.
> 
> By all means push for as much sex as you want.
> And for sure make sure you two are both committed before taking on anymore shared obligations.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Your sister has a lot of common sense and love for you. 

Does she live nearby? If not, is there a way you could get her to come and visit for a while? At minimum a 3 day weekend, ideally for a full week. 

I really believe she could help you. 




Trying2figureitout said:


> Like I have said before I do not want pity...I am smart and capable and can decide to do anything I want.
> 
> I am also determined to do my best to turn my sexless marriage around in a way I believe will be most beneficial to both my wife and I.
> 
> There is no guarantee of success. But at least its well documented and I have seen positive change along the way.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Your sister has a lot of common sense and love for you.
> 
> Does she live nearby? If not, is there a way you could get her to come and visit for a while? At minimum a 3 day weekend, ideally for a full week.
> 
> I really believe she could help you.


My sister did help me as a trusted source and someone who went through a similar patch.

She is far away but I will see her next month.
She helped clarify for me the endgame.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
I really think you would benefit from having her visit you and stay in your home. Your children get to see their aunt, and your aunt can help her brother. 

And as for us being the same, I agree. We've both done the best we can with the hand we were dealt. Suffered some huge disappointments and worked through/around them as much as possible. 

My fears are more similar than different to yours, every bit as strong, and to date have held me back as completely as yours have. 

Given that I'll close for the night with this wish: 
I hope that tomorrow, which is now but a long blink away, we will find more courage in our hearts than we did today. 




Trying2figureitout said:


> My sister did help me as a trusted source and someone who went through a similar patch.
> 
> She is far away but I will see her next month.
> She helped clarify for me the endgame.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Lyris said:


> The point is, T2, that your wife may never want to have sex with you completely off her own bat. But if, as MEM suggests, she allowed you to spend ten minutes touching her in a way that feels good and works to arouse her, then maybe she WOULD want sex.
> 
> That's how responsive desire works. But the LD partner needs to relax into it, and that's a willed action. It comes from the head, not the body.


I appreciate your view...

Here is mine, she can do that if she wants before she would call me up for contact and we would then likely have sex after as you say 10 minutes or so of non-sexual touch.

That stopped over four years ago... so she knows what she needs to have sex, she also knows our sex is an issue., she is smart and capable of deciding to have sex. I have mentioned already early into this ordeal how I missed her asking me for basically daily or so contact. I don't see any difference now and she is not deaf.

The more I stipulate or specify how sex goes now the less authentic the sex becomes ( I already have told her in great detail what I need out of sex *years ago* on my laptop screen with very specific likes and needs)
If she somehow can find a way to want it on her own then it will be authentic which is what I want.

I still do the non-sexual both inside and outside the bedroom and that is part of my attempts for sex i don't need to tell her let me do it for 10 minutes because she already accepts more than that when I do it which is when I want to.

I again fell deeply the less I talk the better my result will be as it allows her to naturally change her view and outlook on sex.

I don't think the solution is complicated, I do think it takes time for some people to change their ways and deal with resentment.


----------



## Tron

Trying2figureitout said:


> I don't think the solution is complicated, I do think it takes time for some people to change their ways and deal with resentment.


I read your thread some time ago, but in a nutshell, what is the nature of your W's resentment, T2?


----------



## john117

Unfortunately you're falling into out of sight out of mind mode where every attempt to reconnect in a non sexual way - even touching - is perceived as sexual.

Take a pet and never touch it. Treat it well etc but never touch. Then a year or two later try to touch. You'll likely get clawed. 

If you don't get clawed then proceed to phase 2. If she is not receptive don't bother and call the whole process off, as the root cause you have is wrong.

Negative feedback loop galore.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tron said:


> I read your thread some time ago, but in a nutshell, what is the nature of your W's resentment, T2?


I pissed her off and she is a *grudge holder* with a touch of ADHD IMO and shes immature for her age as evidenced by others, a perfectionist and self centered with a need for social interaction and sleep. We are in fact complete opposites that can read each other thoughts a lot of the time.

....and I love her still and would marry her again.

You know what, the journey is exciting and its a unique experiment of wills with two reasonable people.
I look at the whole not just sex... I also fully believe I will be successful in the end getting the sex I need with her in time.


----------



## john117

The only people I can think that hold grudges like those for this long are from the Middle East or Southern Europe... Maybe Near East or Central Asia. Is Mrs. T2 from any of those places?

That or closet skeletons that predate your marriage...


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> The only people I can think that hold grudges like those for this long are from the Middle East or Southern Europe... Maybe Near East or Central Asia. Is Mrs. T2 from any of those places?
> 
> That or closet skeletons that predate your marriage...


Nope shes of German descent, probably the skeleton and hard high school year aspect she also overcame obesity


----------



## john117

So it's not cultural.... Then what exactly happened and she's ticked off at you? How long ago?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> So it's not cultural.... Then what exactly happened and she's ticked off at you? How long ago?


John,

There are many things... most which are normal spousal annoyances.

The original yelling and drinking...which I stopped the night she mentioned it...and that started the sexless path.

The two new biggest I believe...

Were me telling the kids about it (her "not in love" issue) in front of her and her having to defend what she said.

Also me saying our sex was not was frequent and varied enough (which she took as she was bad in bed).

Basically I called out her own bad behavior and choices and she didn't take well to that

Pretty much her actions again yet she is upset at me for divulging truths. Both of these items over three years ago. I may have made some mistakes however I think its more on her as she is the basic cause of all of this with her LD ways.

Its all water under the bridge now for me.


----------



## john117

Wow. Insecurities galore.

They are trivial things but trivial things build resentment..

In my case it's over far more substantial matters and mental illness and culture etc. But the day of reckoning is approaching and sex 3x a day is not going to be enough to solve the issues. 

But sex, or lack thereof, started it all... Play along here.

Without sufficient sex there's no emotional connection. Without connection the spouses are free to unilaterally make decisions with no concern to the impact to the other side. Such decisions eventually catch up with you financially or emotionally and that's it.

Consider work. As a responsible adult I endure the bad days at work and celebrate the good ones. My wife sees bad days as the sole reason needed to quit, regardless of consequences. And does not see the good days at all. She's conditioned to look at everything as a threat.

Now granted were talking grand mal BPD here not your average "take two Zoloft and call me in the morning" type issue but the lack of sex propagates into the soul and ultimately wrecks it (for the LD). You're depriving your partner as well as yourself. You build a wall so tall to keep others out that you can't get out yourself. It's crazy.

That's why it's not healthy to create a DMZ zone at home. 

The way things are running I fully expect we will split the moment my younger one finishes premed in 3 years. We will have some fun detangling marital assets then that's all she wrote.

Lack of emotional connection by itself is not a grave issue, but do it long enough and without an exit strategy and it robs you of your core values. Some of us have strong personalities and can deal with it, others can't. That's why action is needed. 

I can see in the last year how my own attitude has changed. I'm mor hardened to resolve this at its natural point - sure, it won't be easy but I'd rather do it with energy to spare than wait till retirement or never.

North and South Korea have been at it for 50 plus years. Not a good strategy.


----------



## MEM2020

*Question*

John,
I'm truly glad to see that you have a plan. And by the sound of it a sensible one. 

Your daughters are both very lucky. And from what you've described they would not wish you to sacrifice more than you intend to. 




john117 said:


> Wow. Insecurities galore.
> 
> They are trivial things but trivial things build resentment..
> 
> In my case it's over far more substantial matters and mental illness and culture etc. But the day of reckoning is approaching and sex 3x a day is not going to be enough to solve the issues.
> 
> But sex, or lack thereof, started it all... Play along here.
> 
> Without sufficient sex there's no emotional connection. Without connection the spouses are free to unilaterally make decisions with no concern to the impact to the other side. Such decisions eventually catch up with you financially or emotionally and that's it.
> 
> Consider work. As a responsible adult I endure the bad days at work and celebrate the good ones. My wife sees bad days as the sole reason needed to quit, regardless of consequences. And does not see the good days at all. She's conditioned to look at everything as a threat.
> 
> Now granted were talking grand mal BPD here not your average "take two Zoloft and call me in the morning" type issue but the lack of sex propagates into the soul and ultimately wrecks it (for the LD). You're depriving your partner as well as yourself. You build a wall so tall to keep others out that you can't get out yourself. It's crazy.
> 
> That's why it's not healthy to create a DMZ zone at home.
> 
> The way things are running I fully expect we will split the moment my younger one finishes premed in 3 years. We will have some fun detangling marital assets then that's all she wrote.
> 
> Lack of emotional connection by itself is not a grave issue, but do it long enough and without an exit strategy and it robs you of your core values. Some of us have strong personalities and can deal with it, others can't. That's why action is needed.
> 
> I can see in the last year how my own attitude has changed. I'm mor hardened to resolve this at its natural point - sure, it won't be easy but I'd rather do it with energy to spare than wait till retirement or never.
> 
> North and South Korea have been at it for 50 plus years. Not a good strategy.


----------



## Anon Pink

*Re: Question*



MEM11363 said:


> John,
> I'm truly glad to see that you have a plan. And by the sound of it a sensible one.
> 
> Your daughters are both very lucky. And from what you've described they would not wish you to sacrifice more than you intend to.


That's what I keep telling him. As a former daughter of an adored father, I would have been furious at him for putting up with my mother for MY sake!


----------



## john117

The plan is for me more than for them actually. 

I think of our marriage being on probation for now, and for a lot more than intimacy reasons. I can tell that mentally she is exhausted and drained but hey, I've offered help and counseling and was rejected. 

I'm not interested in retiring any time soon so I got 11 more years to go. Working French hours does not tire me as much as she gets tired working goulag hours. If she's not interested in contributing financially to the marriage and she's not contributing emotionally as well then the fat lady should be clearing her throat.


----------



## Anon Pink

Sorry, I've got to post more on this. My mother was batsht crazy! My father put up with it as best he could. From high school on I could not understand why he stayed. After I got married, he told my older sister he was done and was going to leave. Before those plans could come about he got sick and does 6 months later.

Don't do that to your daughters John!


----------



## john117

2-3 more years is survivable, no big deal. It's not like I'll be less desirable at 57 than at 54. 

Remember, it's all practical reason driven.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Interesting John. 

This is why I think sometimes people speak a little bit high and mighty from their perch regarding the willingness of a spouse to leave a bad marriage. 

Very few out there (self included) are able to mail it in easy despite having kids. It takes a lot of pushing and a lot of pain to pull the trigger on leaving a marriage while children are at home still. 

John, I respect your view of it. Everyone needs to handle it thier own way. The "this is so bad I need to leave my marriage regardless of kids" is a different threshold for everyone.


----------



## john117

It's time dependent more than anything else. I can read the tea leaves as well as anyone and for all I care it's not viable longer term. 

A branch of my line of work (not what I do thankfully) is often involved in investigation of accidents. In some class many years ago I learned it takes more than one issue to cause a bad accident. A bad decision of the pilot alone rarely does it. It takes the copilot to agree and ignore, or an unrelated mechanical failure. That's what we have here. 

A perfect storm really.

And if I'm going to weather the storm I might as well do it alone. No good way around it. It's like dealing with a child, you give them chance after chance but eventually you run out of good vibes and patience.

I wish it was not the case but it's not my call. Remember what I wrote. Emotional detachment causes other unrelated things to occur then boom!


----------



## 1812overture

john117 said:


> Emotional detachment causes other unrelated things to occur then boom!


And other, unrelated things, can also cause emotional detachment, and things snowball until it is tough to remember what came first, and even tougher to figure out how to fix it, and which to address first, and how to address it when so many other things need addressing.



> Very few out there (self included) are able to mail it in easy despite having kids. It takes a lot of pushing and a lot of pain to pull the trigger on leaving a marriage while children are at home still.


It makes it very tough. I know though that, for me, my wife forces her way into conversations I have with my kids, and in my mind negatively impacts my relationship with them -- or at least my ability to create the relationship I want with them. 
Your daughter is four? I'm not sure I could have done it then. But now, at nine, it might be possible.

The thread from the guy with the post-menopausal wife who is now insatiable gives me hope that maybe nature has (the beginning, at least) of a solution in store, and I'd stick it out if there was a guarantee that was coming my way. There is no guarantee, thus I must consider throwing in the towel.


EDIT: Thanks for asking, Mem. It's been a bad week, but I don't want to hijack.


----------



## MEM2020

1812,
It is sad to read a strategy that consists of waiting for a statistically magical intervention from Mother Nature. While that 'can' happen, the norm for biological processes is that they decrease over time. 

It sounds as if your W lacks respect for:
- your relationship with your children and 
- your feelings in general

From reading your posts, I am guessing that you believe your 'tool kit' consists of:
- Respectful, logical discussion 
- The rare moment where you express strong emotion 
- Divorce 


As long as you believe that, your only possible outcomes are:
- A marriage in which you are treated dismissively and sometimes worse or
- Divorce

There are many ethical and rational ways to begin asserting yourself in a marriage with a bad and worsening respect/power dynamic. 

What have you done to date to begin shaping your W's behavior in the direction that you want? 




1812overture said:


> And other, unrelated things, can also cause emotional detachment, and things snowball until it is tough to remember what came first, and even tougher to figure out how to fix it, and which to address first, and how to address it when so many other things need addressing.
> 
> 
> It makes it very tough. I know though that, for me, my wife forces her way into conversations I have with my kids, and in my mind negatively impacts my relationship with them -- or at least my ability to create the relationship I want with them.
> Your daughter is four? I'm not sure I could have done it then. But now, at nine, it might be possible.
> 
> The thread from the guy with the post-menopausal wife who is now insatiable gives me hope that maybe nature has (the beginning, at least) of a solution in store, and I'd stick it out if there was a guarantee that was coming my way. There is no guarantee, thus I must consider throwing in the towel.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
The 'intolerable' threshold should be high.

Most marriages don't stay screwed up because the ill treated partner chooses to stay. They stay screwed up because that person is unwilling to relentlessly work towards a positive outcome despite knowing their spouse might leave them. 

Observe:
B2: Boston, I'm ready to have another child, let's start on that project tonight
B: No. Not adding more commitments to a marriage that is - broken from my perspective 
B2: Makes false promises or threatens to D over this
B: Agrees to have another child

You don't have to tell me about a high threshold for D because I certainly have one. 

But this is where we differ. When mistreated I do what I believe is fair. Sometimes M2 responds by escalating. I don't like that, but I decided early on that emotional terrorism is like any other type. Concede to it at your peril as you will surely get more of it. 






BostonBruins32 said:


> Interesting John.
> 
> This is why I think sometimes people speak a little bit high and mighty from their perch regarding the willingness of a spouse to leave a bad marriage.
> 
> Very few out there (self included) are able to mail it in easy despite having kids. It takes a lot of pushing and a lot of pain to pull the trigger on leaving a marriage while children are at home still.
> 
> John, I respect your view of it. Everyone needs to handle it thier own way. The "this is so bad I need to leave my marriage regardless of kids" is a different threshold for everyone.


----------



## jld

Sorry, just had to laugh at the term, "emotional terrorism."


----------



## Racer

I’ll pop in again... Long as always...

Keep in mind I did go from a sexless marriage to one with sex whenever I want. I did though receive a rather ‘big stick’ to use (my wife is a SA WW) which helps immensely to get them to question themselves and dislike what they see. 

Regardless, I think you have talked the issue to death with your spouses. It did not change. You worked on yourselves to help you become more attractive. It did not change. And divorce, resentment, frustration and all that are continually on your brain correct?

Hail Mary it. Sit her down and redefine the marriage and what it now means. What isn’t a part of this redefined relationship is something you’ve come to believe it no longer includes; A sexual relationship with her. That’s fine, but you are a sexual person who, whether shallow or not, needs to feel wanted and desired in a sexual way. And sorry to inform her, she isn’t the only one who can provide this; Yes, she should be the one, but is not and it does not appear to be changing. It has gone on long enough that you no longer see this as ‘temporary’ or a ‘unique occurrence’... it is how the relationship is now. Rather than fight it, you are accepting how she wants this, and because you still love her and the family, you aren’t divorcing. 

It still does not change who you are though and what you need. So you are going ‘out there’ to find this outside the marriage. It doesn’t mean sex with women or some sort of open relationship; You will not have sex with others. What it means is you are popping that self-isolation bubble that keeps women at bay. You will loosen your boundaries and allow yourself and other women to flirt. You will form opposite sex friendships. This will feed your ego and provide you what you desire so you can feel like a human: *I am desirable*. That’s what you need and it can be found in just random conversation without boundaries with a pretty girl who seems into you. It doesn’t need to go farther.

It is a unsafe practice. It is dangerous to this marriage. It is playing on very slippery slopes. But it is where you find yourself now simply because it can not be found at home no matter how much you want and desire it to be that way. Reinforce that you will not cheat. 

Then start doing. Join clubs, make friends, start developing socially. Start enjoying other people and the bonds that are formed.

There is something instinctive about a spouse... You are their’s. That is their territory and you are their mate. They are possessive. They will notice that new glow as you find out you are desireable and wouldn’t be rejected (the opposite lessons your wife teaches you). That restores some internal balance in you. 

Your wife will come at you with words, complaints, and nagging. But you’ve learned something haven’t you? Words don’t work in this marriage; Point it out. Her terms and conditions. She made those rules that if you don’t like something your spouse is doing, ‘tough luck’. If she wants change, she’s going to have to do something more than just complain and dump it back on you. She’s actually going to have to work on herself so she’s the attractive option for you. 

At worst; you end up divorcing. But that’s already on the table as a ‘solution’ to your problem. And doing this.... you will actually have a support network and women ready to date you making it much less scary. Plus you are going to have a confident glow about you rather than a look of desperation of someone who has been starved for affection. 

She can be your wife (which includes romantic partner in my mind) or she can be something else (a complex relationship that excludes romantic involvement). She can’t control or ask for more than she gives. Draw that line in the sand and accept what she has proposed. 

I don’t think she’s going like getting what she claims she wants; You to stop trying to have sex with her. You are giving her that... you aren’t trying to have sex *with her* but aren’t giving up on feeling desired. You just no longer expect to get that from her and the world is filled with others who give this freely.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Racer said:


> I’ll pop in again... Long as always...
> 
> Keep in mind I did go from a sexless marriage to one with sex whenever I want. I did though receive a rather ‘big stick’ to use (my wife is a SA WW) which helps immensely to get them to question themselves and dislike what they see.
> 
> Regardless, I think you have talked the issue to death with your spouses. It did not change. You worked on yourselves to help you become more attractive. It did not change. And divorce, resentment, frustration and all that are continually on your brain correct?
> 
> Hail Mary it. Sit her down and redefine the marriage and what it now means. What isn’t a part of this redefined relationship is something you’ve come to believe it no longer includes; A sexual relationship with her. That’s fine, but you are a sexual person who, whether shallow or not, needs to feel wanted and desired in a sexual way. And sorry to inform her, she isn’t the only one who can provide this; Yes, she should be the one, but is not and it does not appear to be changing. It has gone on long enough that you no longer see this as ‘temporary’ or a ‘unique occurrence’... it is how the relationship is now. Rather than fight it, you are accepting how she wants this, and because you still love her and the family, you aren’t divorcing.
> 
> It still does not change who you are though and what you need. So you are going ‘out there’ to find this outside the marriage. It doesn’t mean sex with women or some sort of open relationship; You will not have sex with others. What it means is you are popping that self-isolation bubble that keeps women at bay. You will loosen your boundaries and allow yourself and other women to flirt. You will form opposite sex friendships. This will feed your ego and provide you what you desire so you can feel like a human: *I am desirable*. That’s what you need and it can be found in just random conversation without boundaries with a pretty girl who seems into you. It doesn’t need to go farther.
> 
> It is a unsafe practice. It is dangerous to this marriage. It is playing on very slippery slopes. But it is where you find yourself now simply because it can not be found at home no matter how much you want and desire it to be that way. Reinforce that you will not cheat.
> 
> Then start doing. Join clubs, make friends, start developing socially. Start enjoying other people and the bonds that are formed.
> 
> There is something instinctive about a spouse... You are their’s. That is their territory and you are their mate. They are possessive. They will notice that new glow as you find out you are desireable and wouldn’t be rejected (the opposite lessons your wife teaches you). That restores some internal balance in you.
> 
> Your wife will come at you with words, complaints, and nagging. But you’ve learned something haven’t you? Words don’t work in this marriage; Point it out. Her terms and conditions. She made those rules that if you don’t like something your spouse is doing, ‘tough luck’. If she wants change, she’s going to have to do something more than just complain and dump it back on you. She’s actually going to have to work on herself so she’s the attractive option for you.
> 
> At worst; you end up divorcing. But that’s already on the table as a ‘solution’ to your problem. And doing this.... you will actually have a support network and women ready to date you making it much less scary. Plus you are going to have a confident glow about you rather than a look of desperation of someone who has been starved for affection.
> 
> She can be your wife (which includes romantic partner in my mind) or she can be something else (a complex relationship that excludes romantic involvement). She can’t control or ask for more than she gives. Draw that line in the sand and accept what she has proposed.
> 
> I don’t think she’s going like getting what she claims she wants; You to stop trying to have sex with her. You are giving her that... you aren’t trying to have sex *with her* but aren’t giving up on feeling desired. You just no longer expect to get that from her and the world is filled with others who give this freely.



Interesting approach not for me though. I could care less about other women and making new bonds.
Save that for if we do separate.

Also its not really fair to those you make connections with knowing you are having them as a reserve so to speak.

All this is is an announced seeking multiple EA's.

I'll take my chances my way.

Glad yours turned around Racer


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Sorry, just had to laugh at the term, "emotional terrorism."



That's what it is. Oftentimes the purpose of terrorism is to deny the other side the use of an asset rather than to take control of it...


----------



## Racer

Trying2figureitout said:


> Interesting approach not for me though. I could care less about other women and making new bonds.
> Save that for if we do separate.
> 
> Also its not really fair to those you make connections with knowing you are having them as a reserve so to speak.
> 
> All this is is an announced seeking multiple EA's.
> 
> I'll take my chances my way.
> 
> Glad yours turned around Racer


I get it Trying.. I wasn’t much different. Just farther down that same path. A decade of nearly sexless. 

And something else I learned which I doubt you’ll be able to. Early in our R after her affairs, she suggested the “120 days of sex challenge”. You must have sex, no excuses, for 120 days. Fantastic at first as you can imagine from a guy who was lucky to get laid every other month. But then... it became a chore and not something I was looking forward to. I dug to figure out why. What I discovered is how I used sex. For me, sex is just sort of the ultimate way a woman can prove to me I am desired, wanted, and loved. When it became a chore and obviously not a expression of any of those emotions from either of us, it was no longer something I wanted.

edit; That's also how I figured out hookers wouldn't solve my dilemma... it's not a emotional expression for them and I need it to be to have value.

So I started seeking out others ways I interpret those expressions. I started noticing little things. Things like how when I talk about something passionate, she is absorbed by me as though nothing else is going on in the world. How she does cuddle up to me when I’m just sitting there. How she seeks out my hand when we stroll. And so forth. All this little stuff I interpret as signs of love and desire. 

And something else: it’s not exclusive to her. When I talk to someone even job related and I’ve got her full attention like that, it’s the same. When a woman invades my personal space, it’s the same. And so on.

So it’s not seeking out a replacement at all. It’s locating and noticing those you have this affect on. It’s allowing your own head to go ahead and make that association with desire, interest in you, etc. It’s something I’d blocked before because I’d feel guilty. So the old me just sort of dismissed these things and avoided. The new one notices and enjoys it. Who really knows if these women are truly into me like that? What matters is that I start believing it. When you do, your wife starts looking more and more like that odd man out. You are the catch, the prize, etc. and you start acting like it and projecting it. 

Don’t picture it like some sleezeball out hitting on chicks. Not at all like that since you are not seeking a romantic interest per sea. You are looking for sparks. Hobbies are a great place to start. You will meet people who share the same interest and actually like talking to you about it. You will meet some that the ‘vibe’ is strong like there’s a connection there. Absorb it, enjoy it, and don’t try to take it toward any outcome like you are seeking a date. Just enjoy the time while it last.

All this stuff is good for you too. Sitting around at home probably isn’t doing your spirit much good. Too many negative triggers and time to think and dwell. Feed yourself a new diet of positive experiences. It does change your outlook. (And your wife will notice and worry what it means).


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Racer said:


> I get it Trying.. I wasn’t much different. Just farther down that same path. A decade of nearly sexless.
> 
> And something else I learned which I doubt you’ll be able to. Early in our R after her affairs, she suggested the “120 days of sex challenge”. You must have sex, no excuses, for 120 days. Fantastic at first as you can imagine from a guy who was lucky to get laid every other month. But then... it became a chore and not something I was looking forward to. I dug to figure out why. What I discovered is how I used sex. For me, sex is just sort of the ultimate way a woman can prove to me I am desired, wanted, and loved. When it became a chore and obviously not a expression of any of those emotions from either of us, it was no longer something I wanted.


LOL in six years I'll try your way.

I get what worked for you, but again its not much different from MMSL or any other change your outlook approach.,,and become more alpha

My way is keep my outlook and personality and then grow with my wife when we do solve this. That is why it takes longer.

You know one thing yo mentioned IS interesting I recall myself thinking when my wife and I did have more regular sex I remember during it ....what was the big deal and that sex itself was kind of boring and no real big thing.

So I guess that's why I can go without so well..for me it is about her giving part of her day to me exclusively and a reinforcement of her love... I also feel better knowing she is sexually active with me form a male competition standpoint.


----------



## MEM2020

Lmao




john117 said:


> that's what it is. Oftentimes the purpose of terrorism is to deny the other side the use of an asset rather than to take control of it...


----------



## john117

That's exactly what it is... It rarely accomplished tactical or strategic objectives.

Didn't you do ROTC


----------



## jld

Racer, I think you are just hoping to make T2 feel alive again, right? I don't think you are trying to encourage him to do anything he would regret.

T2, you certainly do not have to follow Racer's suggestions for you, but consider his concern that you may be shriveling up inside, even if you do not realize it, from your wife's rejection.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

jld said:


> Racer, I think you are just hoping to make T2 feel alive again, right? I don't think you are trying to encourage him to do anything he would regret.
> 
> T2, you certainly do not have to follow Racer's suggestions for you, but consider his concern that you may be shriveling up inside, even if you do not realize it, from your wife's rejection.


I am not shriveling inside, why would I be?

I do believe I am near success in turning my marriage around (You've all heard that before I am aware). Sure it gets hard waiting heck I haven't had any sex in 14 months, but again that was mostly on me for lack of trying and waiting for the right moment... now I try perhaps for the last time.

I probably am the one who has accepted my situation especially after the first two years of the ordeal . I am adjusted as well as anyone here and most of the time in my life what I want happens. I am a little dissapointed in it taking past my own calculated deadline so to speak but am encouraged in what I put in place over the years that now I am reaping the reward of that effort.

I am convinced there has been consistent progress on her part especially over the past year. I observe closely and she is different in good ways.

I will listen to my sister should I need to have a talk with my wife again however I just may be successful with a full turn around prior to needing to talk with her again.

Time will tell and really I am fine....it'll happen when it happens and not one second sooner.
I told my wife she should worry once I stopped talking...perhaps she is.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Racer said:


> I don’t think she’s going like getting what she claims she wants; You to stop trying to have sex with her. You are giving her that... you aren’t trying to have sex *with her* but aren’t giving up on feeling desired. You just no longer expect to get that from her and the world is filled with others who give this freely.


I think this idea has a lot of merit, but I don't see BB32 ever doing it for one simple reason:

*He is incapable of letting her dealing with her hurt.*

He would have a much better chance of dealing with all of this if he did not give into his instinct to comfort her and make her feel better every time she gets a bit upset. But he is unwilling to let her feel the consequences of her actions. He talks a lot, but then gives her all the cuddles and affection and affirmation she needs the moment she feels sad or hurt. So when she feels sad and hurt after listening to Racer's idea (which is a good one), he will immediately back off and sooth her feelings. 

Until he disconnects the emotional hose, he can't fix himself or address their marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

TAG,

Totally agree. Boston is still struggling, because he has limited his options to:
- Logical and polite discussion 
- The rare moment of intense emotion 
- Thoughts of divorce 

B,
I haven't reached almost 25 years by heavily using threat of the 'eject' button. 

But I have discussed with M2, or actually done every single thing I have suggested that you do, including hold off on a second baby until some stuff got addressed. 

Unless you let B2 deal with painful consequence, you will be traversing the same decade long path of 1812-O. 





Tall Average Guy said:


> I think this idea has a lot of merit, but I don't see BB32 ever doing it for one simple reason:
> 
> *He is incapable of letting her dealing with her hurt.*
> 
> He would have a much better chance of dealing with all of this if he did not give into his instinct to comfort her and make her feel better every time she gets a bit upset. But he is unwilling to let her feel the consequences of her actions. He talks a lot, but then gives her all the cuddles and affection and affirmation she needs the moment she feels sad or hurt. So when she feels sad and hurt after listening to Racer's idea (which is a good one), he will immediately back off and sooth her feelings.
> 
> Until he disconnects the emotional hose, he can't fix himself or address their marriage.


----------



## john117

And if they're the hardcore tit-for-tat type you'll be wasting your time as after an initial "hurt" period the "good news" of not having to worry about intimacy settles in.

At that point you're in a zombie marriage and that's all she wrote.

Don't confuse "a momentary lapse of reason" temporary situation with a normal partner, easily fixable via outsourcing threats with a hardcore LD who may be getting more pleasure from not having sex than having sex.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

My advice to BB...

Is one last time calmly say all there is to say to his wife and get her to admit the current situation is not ideal for either of you and needs rectified...THEN STOP and NEVER bring it up again and wait for her to come around.

Maybe even make the statement like I did...I will not leave you because of sex but I will leave if you do nothing and work against me on any valid marital concern .

Simply say that you find the current marital situation unacceptable and that you will wait for her to fully correct it. Get her to admit its not ideal and give her space and time to work it out on her own. After all its about her not you.

I am convinced continual talking does nothing... but stating facts clearly and getting buy in and allowing the spouse time to act is the way to go. Then the silence starts eating at them knowing they are keeping you in what you consider an unacceptable situation. The more you talk the more you reset the process and weaken your stance.

Then wait. Be patient and hopeful and MOVE ON. Let time work...and give your wife a chance to really love you again in every way including sex. So yes my advice is suck it up and be prepared to wait a long time for success. In other words stop the bleeding so the marriage can survive...and eventually you will likely end up where you want with a loving and sexual wife.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

BB, If I were you I would NOT follow T2's advice. What you really need to focus on is communication for starters. Address the issue head on, and let her know that the situation is not acceptable. If the situation does not improve, then you will consider ALL options up to and including divorce (if the problem is a biggie). 

In T2's post above, he mentioned that he'd let his wife know that if she slips up in ANY OTHER part of the marriage (expect for sex), he'd divorce her. But he's lying to himself. The reality is that he would use ANY OTHER problem within the marriage as an EXCUSE to pull the trigger on divorce for the TRUE ROOT CAUSE, i.e LACK OF A SEX LIFE.


----------



## Racer

Yes, you can continue like I did to go along with this sexless marriage believing that one day she’ll turn around. I’ve been there. Your wife has done an excellent job; You feel guilty for pressuring for sex when she has a somewhat valid excuse right? 

I know what that does to you inside when repeated for years and years. It’s a poison and continues to get worse. Even when you finally get some in your situation, you are angry because you know it will be a good month until the next time and it wasn’t that good (usually duty sex variety). Masturbation even becomes a point of deep resentment because it’s so degrading to have to resort to this. Porn becomes non-effective at arousal for the same reason. That duty sex also doesn’t help you feel wanted and desired. It has the opposite effect because you feel like she did it out of pity for you. That doesn’t help your pride and ego as a man. Nor does the groveling, the taking on more and more duties to ‘impress her’, etc. 

And the whole time you sit there thinking two thoughts: If only she’d do this, then I would feel better. And. It’s just a phase; she will come around because she see’s how much this bothers me and being a decent human being, she will be bothered that she is causing me hurt and stop. She just needs time and understanding so she can sort this all out. You do this because you are a decent human being and don’t want to be the source of hurt for her. So, you are rather forgiving. (This isn’t a bad character trait at all btw)

Those are both lies you sell yourself. It does not bother her because she feels righteous in this cause; This is your problem, not hers because she doesn’t want sex with you (myriad of reasons you probably won’t ever figure out because she hasn’t taken the time to figure it out herself). 

If sex comes, it’s now spent years in your head that this particular subject is one filled with resentment, hurt, frustration, shame and anger. That is still how it is associated and those feelings remain. Sex is no longer just a good thing... it is a horrible thing too and never viewed the same way again. Sorry...... And to make matters worse; She’s the same way. Sex isn’t a ‘good thing’ with you and also spent a long time in her head being associated like that. 

The sexless thing messed me up so much worse than even her serial adultery. That was in a sick way a relief. Why? Because it showed me the fallacy of the lies I sold myself. It showed me that all those excuses I’d tried so hard to believe were bullsh1t .. it did not apply for another man. That allowed me to look at her with a whole new perspective and change myself. 

But there is significant damage there I’m not sure I’ll ever recover from. It’s one reason I don’t hang out in this forum. Boston asked me to look and make comments in my own story thread. It is the only reason I’m here, otherwise, it is a extremely bad period of my life I’d rather not talk about. I’m just trying to save you guys from the same fate. I did that stuff you are doing; it messed me up rather bad. I’m recovering, but like anyone who’s experienced a sexual trauma, it will always be there. Make no mistake; This is a trauma... it’s just spread out over years one little cut after another. Just think of how many times you’ve had to make excuses for her behavior in your head.... Bet it’s been at least a dozen times just this week and happens now every single time you even think about ‘making a move’ on her. It’s sick and you are doing this to yourself.


----------



## john117

I've said the same thing, Racer. I'd be ecstatic if I come home and Dr. Mrs. LD is busy with one of her movie star look Indian colleagues... 

Use the time to plan ahead but don't think anything will change on its own.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Plan 9 from OS said:


> BB, If I were you I would NOT follow T2's advice. What you really need to focus on is communication for starters. Address the issue head on, and let her know that the situation is not acceptable. If the situation does not improve, then you will consider ALL options up to and including divorce (if the problem is a biggie).
> 
> In T2's post above, he mentioned that he'd let his wife know that if she slips up in ANY OTHER part of the marriage (expect for sex), he'd divorce her. But he's lying to himself. The reality is that he would use ANY OTHER problem within the marriage as an EXCUSE to pull the trigger on divorce for the TRUE ROOT CAUSE, i.e LACK OF A SEX LIFE.


Ok so we agree address the issue head on.... now as to whether to leave your wife over just sex that's up to every man to decide.

My point to my wife is that ANYTHING either of us considers a concern NEEDS to be addressed by the other spouse otherwise its a valid reason to split...if the other spouse does nothing or hampers the progress towards a solution. So far only sex or better lack of it has been a concern brought up by either of us apart from the reality check four years ago.

All of us have to realize our wives just didn't all the sudden decide to go sexless, that too was a LONG process.

So far I believe my wife is working her way back to me and opening her heart...its a process slow and steady.. I am a keen observer of all of her activities and behaviors and I do notice change in her starting two years ago.

So as long as there is constant change no matter how slow I take that as working on the issue from her end and I have no idea how long it takes from "turning off emotions" to a sexual wife who is willing to give it another go.... my best guess is YEARS if ever.

I think its working... and I do believe I will get a good result in the way I did things... so I have no reservation recommending being upfront then letting time work.
At least with effort and real behavioral change happiness on both sides seeps back in.

I set a high bar for a return to a better sexlife... that is one reason its taking a while.
Like I said I will sacrifice years for better decades and do it right.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
You do realize that your W is engaged in exactly this behavior.




Trying2figureitout said:


> Interesting approach not for me though. I could care less about other women and making new bonds.
> Save that for if we do separate.
> 
> Also its not really fair to those you make connections with knowing you are having them as a reserve so to speak.
> 
> All this is is an announced seeking multiple EA's.
> 
> I'll take my chances my way.
> 
> Glad yours turned around Racer


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Trying2figureitout said:


> Ok so we agree address the issue head on.... *now as to whether to leave your wife over just sex that's up to every man to decide*.
> 
> *My point to my wife is that ANYTHING either of us considers a concern NEEDS to be addressed by the other spouse otherwise its a valid reason to split...if the other spouse does nothing or hampers the progress towards a solution. So far only sex or better lack of it has been a concern brought up by either of us apart from the reality check four years ago.*
> 
> All of us have to realize our wives just didn't all the sudden decide to go sexless, that too was a LONG process.
> 
> So far I believe my wife is working her way back to me and opening her heart...its a process slow and steady.. I am a keen observer of all of her activities and behaviors and I do notice change in her starting two years ago.
> 
> So as long as there is constant change no matter how slow I take that as working on the issue from her end and I have no idea how long it takes from "turning off emotions" to a sexual wife who is willing to give it another go.... my best guess is YEARS if ever.
> 
> I think its working... and I do believe I will get a good result in the way I did things... so I have no reservation recommending being upfront then letting time work.
> At least with effort and real behavioral change happiness on both sides seeps back in.
> 
> I set a high bar for a return to a better sexlife... that is one reason its taking a while.
> Like I said I will sacrifice years for better decades and do it right.


There are two takeaways from this based on how I understand it:

Your sexless situation is really not that big of a deal to you. You indicated that you would not leave your wife over "just sex". That, to me, indicates that it's a low priority on your list relative to the other criteria you hold important for a marriage. I can't fault you if that's how you want to rank sex when everything else is considered.
You said you mentioned to her directly that sex is an area that must be worked on. Considering that 4 years have passed, I'd say your wife is doing NOTHING to address the issue. If she was, a solution would have been discovered awhile ago, or at the least you two would know that no solution to address the sexlessness will be possible. Either way, if you both were working on it and communicating about it then it would have been addressed already. It's not, and you are willing to still wait it out. Therefore, sex must not be a big issue to you in the end.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Plan 9 from OS said:


> There are two takeaways from this based on how I understand it:
> 
> Your sexless situation is really not that big of a deal to you. You indicated that you would not leave your wife over "just sex". That, to me, indicates that it's a low priority on your list relative to the other criteria you hold important for a marriage. I can't fault you if that's how you want to rank sex when everything else is considered.
> You said you mentioned to her directly that sex is an area that must be worked on. Considering that 4 years have passed, I'd say your wife is doing NOTHING to address the issue. If she was, a solution would have been discovered awhile ago, or at the least you two would know that no solution to address the sexlessness will be possible. Either way, if you both were working on it and communicating about it then it would have been addressed already. It's not, and you are willing to still wait it out. Therefore, sex must not be a big issue to you in the end.


1. Sex is as critical as many other facets of our marriage... but again if for some reason she could not have sex that would not be a deal breaker for me. At this point its mostly mental so again if she is trying at all to work with her issue I give her a pass. I do believe she is trying to re-kindle her feelings which will ultimately lead to sex. It is still an unacceptable situation as would be many other scenarios if something were suddenly missing that one expects.

Personally sex is among my favorite activities. Perhaps I have good self control is all.

2. It is our biggest issue along with whatever is preventing it. As for the solution again I set the bar high purposely so she would have something to strive for. I absolutely want to wait until she is ready for a sex life. Key word is want. I am certain I could have had sex earlier but i myself put a stop to that to get the sex I want which is wanted sex. She needs to WANT to have sex with me for us to have sex again.

Sex is a big issue, perhaps not the biggest it just seems that way to me.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> You do realize that your W is engaged in exactly this behavior.


Shes been engaged in social behavior since I met her


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> Shes been engaged in social behavior since I met her


So... now affairs have been reduced to merely "social behaviour? :scratchhead:


----------



## john117

Depending on one's culture and tolerance, EA's are either a capital offense or perfectly acceptable 

Or anything in between..,


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> So... now affairs have been reduced to merely "social behaviour? :scratchhead:


She has always had male friends the one I worried about was definitely too much... probably an EA at some level yet I can accept it and don't believe its part of our struggle.

Her and I are healing and we will have regular sex soon. We are working back to a normal sexual marriage.

I will post a summary thread down the road.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Trying2figureitout said:


> She has always had male friends the one I worried about was definitely too much... probably an EA at some level yet I can accept it and don't believe its part of our struggle.
> 
> Her and I are healing and we will have regular sex soon. We are working back to a normal sexual marriage.
> 
> I will post a summary thread down the road.


This makes no sense. First, an affair does have an impact on the marriage. Second, with you going on 4 years of no sex it seems like your judgement may be impaired.


----------



## Maricha75

Trying2figureitout said:


> She has always had male friends the one I worried about was definitely too much... probably an EA at some level yet I can accept it and don't believe its part of our struggle.
> 
> Her and I are healing and we will have regular sex soon. We are working back to a normal sexual marriage.
> 
> I will post a summary thread down the road.


T2, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, while the EA wasn't the CAUSE of the problems between you and your wife, it certainly is a SYMPTOM. That doesn't mean it's ok. Not even close. And, I think you agree that it wasn't ok... though I'm not so sure you feel that way any longer. Again, going on a limb here, and going to say that she explained it all away, making you think there's nothing to it, and knowing you WON'T check up on her conversations. T2, you know why I'm saying this... I did the same thing, essentially, covering my actions, making my husband htink it was all in his head, etc. again, I DID that. And it worked... at first. But then, he caught on and put an end to it. 

So, why do I say it's a symptom? The disconnect. You started to disconnect, for whatever reason... and this was her chosen outlet. It's hard to change things. I know it is. I've been there. And, if I'm honest with myself, it's STILL hard. If we have an argument, it's hard to stay connected when angry. The EASY thing would be to revery to my past behavior. But I take the harder route... and CHOOSE to stay connected, no matter how hard it is.

T2, I believe you when you say that SOME aspects of your marriage are healing. I just cannot wrap my head around saying "No" when she WANTED sex. I just cannot fathom this, when someone says "my marriage is sexless because she doesn't want to have sex".... To me, telling her "No", when she wants it, can just come back and bite you in the ass... she can say "Well, I wanted to, and you said no. To me, that says our sex life is fine... as far as YOU are concerned." See what I mean? You don't have to agree with me. That's perfectly fine. But I do think you should think about that some more.


----------



## MEM2020

Maricha,
This is why T2 won't invite his sister to stay in his home. Sis knows what's happening and might say something to disrupt the 
fragile illusion of harmony in the house....


QUOTE=Maricha75;7415794]T2, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, while the EA wasn't the CAUSE of the problems between you and your wife, it certainly is a SYMPTOM. That doesn't mean it's ok. Not even close. And, I think you agree that it wasn't ok... though I'm not so sure you feel that way any longer. Again, going on a limb here, and going to say that she explained it all away, making you think there's nothing to it, and knowing you WON'T check up on her conversations. T2, you know why I'm saying this... I did the same thing, essentially, covering my actions, making my husband htink it was all in his head, etc. again, I DID that. And it worked... at first. But then, he caught on and put an end to it. 

So, why do I say it's a symptom? The disconnect. You started to disconnect, for whatever reason... and this was her chosen outlet. It's hard to change things. I know it is. I've been there. And, if I'm honest with myself, it's STILL hard. If we have an argument, it's hard to stay connected when angry. The EASY thing would be to revery to my past behavior. But I take the harder route... and CHOOSE to stay connected, no matter how hard it is.

T2, I believe you when you say that SOME aspects of your marriage are healing. I just cannot wrap my head around saying "No" when she WANTED sex. I just cannot fathom this, when someone says "my marriage is sexless because she doesn't want to have sex".... To me, telling her "No", when she wants it, can just come back and bite you in the ass... she can say "Well, I wanted to, and you said no. To me, that says our sex life is fine... as far as YOU are concerned." See what I mean? You don't have to agree with me. That's perfectly fine. But I do think you should think about that some more.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

And if she wants once a month good luck with the strategy. As I said many a time, this is not normal people we are dealing with.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Maricha75 said:


> T2, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, while the EA wasn't the CAUSE of the problems between you and your wife, it certainly is a SYMPTOM. That doesn't mean it's ok. Not even close. And, I think you agree that it wasn't ok... though I'm not so sure you feel that way any longer. Again, going on a limb here, and going to say that she explained it all away, making you think there's nothing to it, and knowing you WON'T check up on her conversations. T2, you know why I'm saying this... I did the same thing, essentially, covering my actions, making my husband htink it was all in his head, etc. again, I DID that. And it worked... at first. But then, he caught on and put an end to it.
> 
> So, why do I say it's a symptom? The disconnect. You started to disconnect, for whatever reason... and this was her chosen outlet. It's hard to change things. I know it is. I've been there. And, if I'm honest with myself, it's STILL hard. If we have an argument, it's hard to stay connected when angry. The EASY thing would be to revery to my past behavior. But I take the harder route... and CHOOSE to stay connected, no matter how hard it is.
> 
> T2, I believe you when you say that SOME aspects of your marriage are healing. I just cannot wrap my head around saying "No" when she WANTED sex. I just cannot fathom this, when someone says "my marriage is sexless because she doesn't want to have sex".... To me, telling her "No", when she wants it, can just come back and bite you in the ass... she can say "Well, I wanted to, and you said no. To me, that says our sex life is fine... as far as YOU are concerned." See what I mean? You don't have to agree with me. That's perfectly fine. But I do think you should think about that some more.


She never said back the she wanted it she offered it out of frustration big difference. I used that as a learning moment for her.

I believe fully the marriage is healed and her and I are back on track the regular sex part will happen. In essence I reverse engineered this handling the underlying issues first leaving sex as the last domino.

As for the texting again to my satisfaction its a non-factor.

I will update in full in may own thread later. I believe I handled it correctly.

I set the healing in motion over two years ago (where I could sense forward on her part movement) its taken another two years to get here. Ready for sex to return.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Wow lots of activity on thread, 

Nothing big here. Had complimentary conversation right after sex last week, regarding acceptable sexual frequency and communication. Outlined what will and will not work for this marriage . And timeline. Left it alone . I initiated sat night, she willingly obliged. Very cuddly and affectionate. We'll see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## naiveonedave

Good luck BB, things are looking up, imo.


----------



## BostonBruins32

naiveonedave said:


> Good luck BB, things are looking up, imo.


Well I'm not proclaiming any serious improvement until there is consistency.

Still conflicted though. My love for her is dented, meaning it's still there, just a little broken. As mentioned in this thread, I still harbor resentment that I know I need to clear. I find myself wanting to get away from the house after our daughter is in bed etc.. Like I want to be away from my wife more. I even take the longer way home (side roads) after work sometimes to delay my arrival home. Someone pointed out earlier on here, I think I just don't like the way she shows or doesn't show love. And despite some seemingly obvious improvements, I have a different level of interest in our function as a marriage right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

B,
It's possible your W is simply placating you without addressing the underlying fracture in your marriage. 


------
I believe the best way to try to make this a permanent improvement in your marriage is to *wait until the house/baby comes up again and at that point* tell her the truth which is:

Recently you've been making an effort to be a better wife. I'm grateful for the effort. And eventually I will begin to believe that it's permanent. It's going to be a while before I am willing to 'double down' on our commitment level. As far as how long that will take, all I can say is that it won't be longer than the 4 years I allowed myself to be treated as a low priority. 

------
If your W actually cares about how you feel, she will accept this. If however, her efforts were a short term tactic to get what she wants, she is going to press you very hard to move ahead. 

If that happens you might ask: 
- What has been motivating you to treat me better? And
- Why are you in such a hurry? 




BostonBruins32 said:


> Well I'm not proclaiming any serious improvement until there is consistency.
> 
> Still conflicted though. My love for her is dented, meaning it's still there, just a little broken. As mentioned in this thread, I still harbor resentment that I know I need to clear. I find myself wanting to get away from the house after our daughter is in bed etc.. Like I want to be away from my wife more. I even take the longer way home (side roads) after work sometimes to delay my arrival home. Someone pointed out earlier on here, I think I just don't like the way she shows or doesn't show love. And despite some seemingly obvious improvements, I have a different level of interest in our function as a marriage right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> It's possible your W is simply placating you without addressing the underlying fracture in your marriage.
> 
> 
> ------
> I believe the best way to try to make this a permanent improvement in your marriage is to *wait until the house/baby comes up again and at that point* tell her the truth which is:
> 
> Recently you've been making an effort to be a better wife. I'm grateful for the effort. And eventually I will begin to believe that it's permanent. It's going to be a while before I am willing to 'double down' on our commitment level. As far as how long that will take, all I can say is that it won't be longer than the 4 years I allowed myself to be treated as a low priority.
> 
> ------
> If your W actually cares about how you feel, she will accept this. If however, her efforts were a short term tactic to get what she wants, she is going to press you very hard to move ahead.
> 
> If that happens you might ask:
> - What has been motivating you to treat me better? And
> - Why are you in such a hurry?


Trust me, one week of cooperation isn't undoing 4 years of a dry well. I am not convinced she truly loves me. No way in hell I consider another child etc with someone who refuses to communicate and or share empathy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

B,
All I'm saying is this: B2 is trying to avoid ANY conversation related to her treatment of you. By doing that, she retains total control over what she defines as ok/not ok, future behavior.

Biology is powerful. After 3-4 months of weekly sex (which seems great to you - and at the bottom of the tolerable range to me), she is counting on you being totally pliable. 

You let this play out that way, you will be back on here just as celibate and thrice as angry a year after your second child is born. 

Don't lose sight of something that is very important to me. M2 routinely tells our friends that I treat her 'like gold'. 

The difference between us is, from the get go I was willing to have conflict when need be. M2 is grateful for that, not resentful. 



QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7446242]Trust me, one week of cooperation isn't undoing 4 years of a dry well. I am not convinced she truly loves me. No way in hell I consider another child etc with someone who refuses to communicate and or share empathy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> All I'm saying is this: B2 is trying to avoid ANY conversation related to her treatment of you. By doing that, she retains total control over what she defines as ok/not ok, future behavior.
> 
> Biology is powerful. After 3-4 months of weekly sex (which seems great to you - and at the bottom of the tolerable range to me), she is counting on you being totally pliable.
> 
> You let this play out that way, you will be back on here just as celibate and thrice as angry a year after your second child is born.
> 
> Don't lose sight of something that is very important to me. M2 routinely tells our friends that I treat her 'like gold'.
> 
> The difference between us is, from the get go I was willing to have conflict when need be. M2 is grateful for that, not resentful.
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7446242]Trust me, one week of cooperation isn't undoing 4 years of a dry well. I am not convinced she truly loves me. No way in hell I consider another child etc with someone who refuses to communicate and or share empathy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


[/QUOTE]

Yep totally hear ya. My two focal points of last talk were frequency and her snap backs at me. Combined together my intention was to clearly explain that her current behavior will not be acceptable for me. I explained that Rome was not built over night, but should there be no palpable continued change (my frequency demand was weekly sex) by October of this year (in my head anniversary of the whole talk/space/counseling start) that I will seek a separation. I told her it would break my heart, but not as much as remaining in a marriage that lacks respect and love. I also told her that I think these changes are easy and that I'm confident that we can succeed. 

I don't feel like I'm ignoring confrontation as I may have previously. I'm battling resentment of her now, so I think clear explanations and more of a nip it in the bud approach is my recipe for avoiding resentment going forward. 

Admittedly we're not there yet but something's a brewing. I'd imagine I'll feel loved if the dynamics above follow through and improve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

You sound like you are becoming a leader, BB.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> You sound like you are becoming a leader, BB.


I think my daughter still runs the house .. Haha

The good news is that after last night.. That makes three sessions in one week. Bviously exceeding expectations. Time shall tell
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

*"I think clear explanations and more of a nip it in the bud approach is my recipe for avoiding resentment going forward. "*

I don't get this whole resentment thing that I am hearing a lot about on TAM. 

One of you makes a mistake, you either admit it yourself or call your spouse out on it, that person admits the mistake, you both come up with a plan for improvement, the offender apologizes and makes amends, and you both go on. 

What is all this resentment about?


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I think my daughter still runs the house .. Haha
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, that's all of us with kids.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> *"I think clear explanations and more of a nip it in the bud approach is my recipe for avoiding resentment going forward. "*
> 
> I don't get this whole resentment thing that I am hearing a lot about on TAM.
> 
> One of you makes a mistake, you either admit it yourself or call your spouse out on it, that person admits the mistake, you both come up with a plan for improvement, the offender apologizes and makes amends, and you both go on.
> 
> What is all this resentment about?


Unicorns. Tooth fairies. Easter bunny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Unicorns. Tooth fairies. Easter bunny.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Come on, BB. Someday, right?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> *"One of you makes a mistake, you either admit it yourself or call your spouse out on it, that person admits the mistake, you both come up with a plan for improvement, the offender apologizes and makes amends, and you both go on. *


*


Most problematic TAM marriages resemble what used to be Yugoslavia, where people resented each other just because. Given enough time nobody actually remembered a recent and valid reason for the resentment except "it's the other guys not us".

I can't help but wonder what would marriage look like in the USA if we had a better economy, better social protection net, and - might as well say it - a trend towards smaller families like in much of Europe -... In a generation or two marriage would be like an oddity, more like seeing an Amish buggy in a mall parking lot.*


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> I explained that Rome was not built over night, but should there be no palpable continued change (my frequency demand was weekly sex) by October of this year (in my head anniversary of the whole talk/space/counseling start) that I will seek a separation.


Don't tell her when the deadline is, or if you have, don't mention it again. Knowing may cause her to work toward it, and then once she meets it, stop working.


----------



## john117

And don't use sex as the sole gauge of improvement. Like I suggested to Anon Pink a while back, try to keep a simple chart of your life - keep it simple - and that should show you progress in your overall relationship. Look for involvement, empathy, understanding, and the like, things that are difficult to fudge, not simpler acts like physical intimacy. Do this weekly, if not daily, for six months and see what the trend says.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> And don't use sex as the sole gauge of improvement. Like I suggested to Anon Pink a while back, try to keep a simple chart of your life - keep it simple - and that should show you progress in your overall relationship. Look for involvement, empathy, understanding, and the like, things that are difficult to fudge, not simpler acts like physical intimacy. Do this weekly, if not daily, for six months and see what the trend says.


John, this is a very important point.

As I mentioned before, she is increasingly affectionate. The change from her affection 5 months ago is huge. She is back to affection levels not seen since real real early in the marriage if not before. Meaning random hugs, love yous, and kisses. Good signs. She has been much quieter in the past few weeks regarding my parenting of our daughter, and more frequently standing up for me "you do not talk to your daddy like that, you need to go apologize to him" etc.. Not that she ever condoned bad behavior to me, but she has been a bit more vocal about making sure our daughter does not get any incremental slack in how she behaves with me. 

Last night's session was really interesting. Coming off of only a few days since intimacy, I initiated seemingly randomly and in the living room. There was light humor around it and it was playful. I don't remember the last time it was like that. 

Another driver is coming from within myself too. A very notable thing that I needed to work on was patience with our daughter. Well I have been remarkably patient in the midst of complete screaming fits from little B3. Additionally, I have been devoting much much more time to undivided attention to her when I get home. At this point, I don't get out of my work clothes until she goes to bed because I'm too busy. So while I didnt constantly yell at her or ignore her at home previously, I'm just putting an extra emphasis on my parenting. While this does not directly impact my wife, it heavily indirectly impacts her and I am certain earns me respect from her vantage.


----------



## john117

If she's increasingly affectionate and so different than a few weeks ago I would add a serious psych work up to your list, as BPD and other PD's have a tendency to do this. Just saying... From the been there done that Department. 

Focus on B3 and be yourself but keep your eyes open...


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> If she's increasingly affectionate and so different than a few weeks ago I would add a serious psych work up to your list, as BPD and other PD's have a tendency to do this. Just saying... From the been there done that Department.
> 
> Focus on B3 and be yourself but keep your eyes open...


could you clarify what you mean by add serious psych work up to my list?


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> If she's increasingly affectionate and so different than a few weeks ago I would add a serious psych work up to your list, as BPD and other PD's have a tendency to do this.


 Cynical much???

BB, the sex is back. I expect you'll be outta here now like Bagdon. Sex is everything after all 

One piece of advice from the "money" thread. You seem to take her comments as criticism. I wonder if you have some kind of tape in your head from childhood? My H's tape from his dad "worthless, lazy, good-for-nothing, reject" His dad was a farmer who never graduated HS and dissed academics and reading. H was a sickly asthmatic- and intelligent. He has a PhD in nuclear physics from a world class engineering school. When he was a boy interested in astronomy and pointing out the planets in the sky, his dad mocked him for sissy reading books and told him "you'll never be able to support a mama cat".

We have 8 children and I was a SAHM so we lived on a single income. The average income for the first 22 years was <50K with multiple job changes and difficulties. We were on WIC, CHIP (medicaid for children), free and reduced school lunches, etc.... almost like living out his dad's prophecies. I pinched every penny till it screamed, did things like bred puppies, put massive sweat equity into our homes with the children's help, and kicked into joint home equity an inheritance from my grandfather, etc (so we owned a home mortgage free by 2001), but still was accused of only being with him for "stud service and a paycheck" :scratchhead:

Anyway, I don't think all the issues are on your W. Continued introspection, IC and personal growth will serve you well.

Good luck (and God Bless which I prefer strongly over "luck" )


----------



## john117

Not cynical, just your friendly neighborhood toaster oven psychologist 

I am not the type of person that sees PD's hiding behind small kitchen appliances but all the same things don't happen for no reason. 

There's a long inference to make from B2's behavior as described here by BB to one or more PD's but it is worth keeping an eye open.

I would advise BB to stick around and post updates for a few months. Many pairs of eyes tend to work well, crowdsourced therapy be darned


----------



## Tron

BostonBruins32 said:


> could you clarify what you mean by add serious psych work up to my list?


I think it has a bit to do with what you wrote about her here:



BostonBruins32 said:


> I actually struggled with that a few months ago. The rejection and criticism squashed my self esteem.
> 
> Man, I just want to see her bleed (figuratively). Feel a pulse. See some empathy. Hear some understanding. Its funny, when I met her I thought she was more sensitive and emotional than anyone I ever dated. I'd actually say its just the opposite. She's far colder than most women I've met. And shes colder to her family and close friends, so its definitely just who she is (for some reason).


And the fact that she's blowing so hot now.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

PD? Isn't it just as likely that he's doing the 180, turning down the thermostat, communicating his issues better, etc.... and that she's responding to those actions of his in the way that he was told she would respond? Sometimes this **** works, you know?


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> She has been much quieter in the past few weeks regarding my parenting of our daughter. . .
> While this does not directly impact my wife, it heavily indirectly impacts her and I am certain earns me respect from her vantage.


I didn't know this was a problem, as well. Sounds like my marriage -- constant "critiques" of my parenting. And I also suffer (as you mention in the general thread) from comparisons to carefully selected neighbors and friends. Often money, or perceived money, since we don't know our neighbors true financial picture, and claims that "we'll never be able to retire."

It sounds as though you are focused on being a more present -- in the moment -- parent. That's a great thing. It may help your marriage, but even if it doesn't, it'll improve your relationship with your daughter, which is a great benefit from the currently running drama. Not that it makes it worth it, but you do end up getting something good out of it, regardless of how you marriage and sex life respond.


----------



## john117

WorkingOnMe said:


> PD? Isn't it just as likely that he's doing the 180, turning down the thermostat, communicating his issues better, etc.... and that she's responding to those actions of his in the way that he was told she would respond? Sometimes this **** works, you know?



No doubt, but I was referring to the **** that preceded said 180, esp. financial recklessness, lack of intimacy, snapping, unrealistic expectations, etc. as well as the very rapid turnaround. 

If we were talking about some doe eyed newly married woman who gave up intimacy a few months ago to play mommy I would agree and light a candle or three in the NMMNG or the MMSL altar, but that's a bit different.

People don't change behavior overnight without a very good reason, esp. deep engrained behaviors they practiced for years.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
It seems like J2 is unhappy. Not overall unhappy with you, but rather unhappy with life overall. 

But it seems she might be unhappy with you about your insistence that she fund her half of the children's graduate/med school tuitions? It seems as if she is unhappy in her job and wants to quit, and sees funding the totality of their education as a choice to prioritize the kids over the marriage. 

This ties back to her comments about quitting when the kids complete undergrad. 




john117 said:


> And if they're the hardcore tit-for-tat type you'll be wasting your time as after an initial "hurt" period the "good news" of not having to worry about intimacy settles in.
> 
> At that point you're in a zombie marriage and that's all she wrote.
> 
> Don't confuse "a momentary lapse of reason" temporary situation with a normal partner, easily fixable via outsourcing threats with a hardcore LD who may be getting more pleasure from not having sex than having sex.


----------



## jld

That is a new idea, john. Is MEM right? Could it be that she feels she is not as great a priority as the kids?


----------



## john117

J2 :lol: is unhappy overall and has been for as long as the Rapture occurred. 

But.....

She simply does not appreciate what she has, a great if demanding job, excellent education, great health, two great kids, more money than most people we know, and a decent if eccentric husband. 

BPD will cause one to focus only on select negatives. Yesterday we received an inch stack of pictures from her youth taken by a family friend with an excellent - at the time - Canon SLR. In half the pics she's with her sister, the one that perished during a PA. Her primary comment was, OMA (*), I was so close to my sister - they hated each other - and OMA, she was so chubby.

True, sister was chubby at 18-19, maybe 130-135 lb. to my wife's 105-110. But out of 45 years of memories that's all you remember?

The kids would have been just as happy in less costly state schools but in both cases it was J2 that suggested we aim for the moon. Plus with sizable scholarships the incremental cost has not been that bad.

J2 basically wants the benefits of work - money, status, material wealth - but not the effort. Typical Magical Thinking common in BPD's.

If I had my way I would start her on some mild antidepressant and work from there. Alas, it's hard to get anything else accomplished when her focus is 90% work and 10% everything else. 

To become a priority she has to pull her own weight and take interest in our lives and even - gasp - participate. No dice.

The BPD thinking - black or white, all or nothing - permeates her actions, creating no space for negotiations or compromise. For nearly every scenario the worst possible outcome is taken as the likely outcome. Hence... 

Hopefully she'll see the light but I would not keep my hopes high. Last night she was watching some random movie on Netflix where a college prof was banging his coed students (drama type not a skin flick) while I was busy killing pigs on Angry Birds Space II. The moment the action got steamy she started wondering aloud what xxxx is this and switched to Jane Austen :rofl: because I was there. Priceless.

Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick...

(*) OMA - Oh My Allah


----------



## BostonBruins32

No news. 

Still struggling to feel as in love with her as I used to feel. But I don't think it's anything she's done lately which means the problem is with me, not her. It's like I'm in a funk and I don't know how to feel love for her like I want to. Like is it resentment or is it that the past few months have taught me something about her behaviors vs my expectations (miles apart)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I would encourage you to just soldier forward, doing the right thing. If you are able to share your feelings with her, that would be good, too.

I am sorry you are struggling right now, BB. I hope the weekend will offer some refreshment.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> I would encourage you to just soldier forward, doing the right thing. If you are able to share your feelings with her, that would be good, too.
> 
> I am sorry you are struggling right now, BB. I hope the weekend will offer some refreshment.


I am plowing through. I just need to reassess what I expect from a marriage vs what she is capable of doing. The counselor outlined this nicely, and I think some you have. Not everyone has the same way of showing love. 

Communication is key here. She doesnt communicate well or very much (or I dont speak the same communication language as her). The other thing is maybe she literally is content, even when she seems snippy or seems quiet or seems distant. Maybe shes fine? She says shes good. It's hard for me to believe that, as I feel like I wear my feelings on my sleeve. And even other people I come into contact with seem to wear it on thier sleeve too (some more, some less). I can generally mind map people, except my wife. I have no clue how she can be "happy", "good", or 'fine", when her body language or physical communication seems to say otherwise.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> I am plowing through. I just need to reassess what I expect from a marriage vs what she is capable of doing. The counselor outlined this nicely, and I think some you have. Not everyone has the same way of showing love.
> 
> Communication is key here. She doesnt communicate well or very much (or I dont speak the same communication language as her). The other thing is maybe she literally is content, even when she seems snippy or seems quiet or seems distant. Maybe shes fine? She says shes good. It's hard for me to believe that, as I feel like I wear my feelings on my sleeve. And even other people I come into contact with seem to wear it on thier sleeve too (some more, some less). I can generally mind map people, except my wife. I have no clue how she can be "happy", "good", or 'fine", when her body language or physical communication seems to say otherwise.


BB, this reminds me of an issue my husband and I have often--he catches a certain expression on my face, or assesses that I seem "distant" or "indifferent" when I am preoccupied or tired and starts to wonder "What does this mean? Why is she upset? Did I do something wrong?" He starts to subtly probe my mood with lots of questions like, "What's on your mind? Anything bothering you? Hey, did I do something to make you mad?" or he simply lurks, constantly taking covert glances at me, just sort of watching, evaluating, guessing. It drives me absolutely crazy--sometimes I just have stuff on my mind! Sometimes I'm just feeling a little tired, or I feel like being alone and don't necessarily want to have a conversation at the moment. I start to feel crowded, and I start to wonder why he has to always use my mood to set his own. 

Anyway, we've talked about it and worked on and and both of us have gotten better at helping the other person relax a little around the issue of "perceived moods." We are less than a year into a pretty huge emotional and sexual reconciliation, so we do realize that it will take time to break old habits and old insecurities. 

Along those lines, we often use humor. My husband sent me this, which I found hilarious. 

ORIGINAL VIDEO - *****y Resting Face - YouTube

Maybe find a humorous way to share it with your wife?


----------



## Mr The Other

My understanding is that "reassess" is MC speak for either "get over yourself" or "Leave them".


----------



## BostonBruins32

Mr The Other said:


> My understanding is that "reassess" is MC speak for either "get over yourself" or "Leave them".


get over myself is the likely deal here. 

also to Gettingit, I just simply carry on my jovial self when I see her being distant or quiet or weird. But my point is that I still take stock mentally of it. especially when our daughter gets the lovey dovey and I get the ice cold wifey.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Does it seem to you that B2 is engaging in a continuous exercise of: come closer, go away 

She seems to invite you via a lot of 'come closer' requests. But when obliged, often responds with some harsh 'go away' behaviors. 

Heart on your sleeve works badly with her. 

M2 often likes some quiet time. This is no reflection on me and I am glad to oblige her. When she wants quiet time, the last thing I do is ask her what's wrong. Because there typically isn't anything wrong. 

But I'm not obligated to spend time with her - when she wants quiet. There is no tension over this. Honestly, constant chatter would exhaust me. We have a delightful mix of great conversation and easy silence. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> get over myself is the likely deal here.
> 
> also to Gettingit, I just simply carry on my jovial self when I see her being distant or quiet or weird. But my point is that I still take stock mentally of it. especially when our daughter gets the lovey dovey and I get the ice cold wifey.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> get over myself is the likely deal here.
> 
> also to Gettingit, I just simply carry on my jovial self when I see her being distant or quiet or weird. But my point is that I still take stock mentally of it. especially when our daughter gets the lovey dovey and I get the ice cold wifey.


You might be surprised over what subtle changes in your behavior and demeanor she is picking up on when you are "taking stock mentally" of her behaviors. Do you think she doesn't make note of when you seem "off" to her? Do you think she's not making assumptions and guesses as to what it might mean?

It's a dance. Neither of you seem to be getting what they need from the other person. You have told her what you need. It doesn't appear that she has told you what she needs . . . . I wonder if even she knows.


----------



## Tron

GettingIt said:


> It's a dance. Neither of you seem to be getting what they need from the other person. You have told her what you need. It doesn't appear that she has told you what she needs . . . . I wonder if even she knows.


When things got too close in MC/IC and she was being forced to self examine, she shut down. Sadly, this tells me, that at this point, she doesn't even really care to know.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tron said:


> When things got too close in MC/IC and she was being forced to self examine, she shut down. Sadly, this tells me, that at this point, she doesn't even really care to know.


Its hard to think someone wouldnt care to know. I do think there is a chance that she doesnt know, and has yet to figure out how to know. Yes I'm probably in glass house, but I really think she has some deep rooted insecurities and discomforts with who she is as a person. Which filters out through her behavior in this marriage.

And Gettingit, you are likely right. she may be able to sense my discomfort etc sometimes. I need to mental note that and act accordingly.


----------



## MEM2020

GI,
At risk of grossly oversimplifying:
B: Is a canine (friendly, direct, approval seeking) 
B2: Is a feline (hard to read, easily crowded, casually cruel)





GettingIt said:


> You might be surprised over what subtle changes in your behavior and demeanor she is picking up on when you are "taking stock mentally" of her behaviors. Do you think she doesn't make note of when you seem "off" to her? Do you think she's not making assumptions and guesses as to what it might mean?
> 
> It's a dance. Neither of you seem to be getting what they need from the other person. You have told her what you need. It doesn't appear that she has told you what she needs . . . . I wonder if even she knows.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> GI,
> At risk of grossly oversimplifying:
> B: Is a canine (friendly, direct, approval seeking)
> B2: Is a feline (hard to read, easily crowded, casually cruel)


100% . which explains why I am wanting to hump her leg more.


----------



## Tron

BostonBruins32 said:


> Its hard to think someone wouldnt care to know. I do think there is a chance that she doesnt know, and has yet to figure out how to know. Yes I'm probably in glass house, but I really think she has some deep rooted insecurities and discomforts with who she is as a person. Which filters out through her behavior in this marriage.


I don't doubt this. 

Has she ever really tried to deal with the CSA at all? In therapy? It is uncomfortable.


----------



## Tron

MEM11363 said:


> GI,
> At risk of grossly oversimplifying:
> B: Is a canine (friendly, direct, approval seeking)
> B2: Is a feline (hard to read, easily crowded, casually cruel)


LOL!


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Its hard to think someone wouldnt care to know. I do think there is a chance that she doesnt know, and has yet to figure out how to know. Yes I'm probably in glass house, but I really think she has some deep rooted insecurities and discomforts with who she is as a person. Which filters out through her behavior in this marriage.


This is the vibe I get from your situation. Of course, that is only because I recognize it from the brutal years of my own marriage. We tend to project our own experience onto the stories we read here; I am fully aware of that. 

That being said, I can attest to the fact that sometimes we don't "know" what the problem is, or at least we are so fearful of what it might be that we refuse to drag it into the light and examine it. So you might be right about her having "deep rooted insecurities and discomforts." Perhaps she cannot face the possibility that the problem, once confronted, won't be solvable. To her (consciously or subconsciously) living like this is an acceptable tradeoff for not having to risk that possibility.

She cannot relax around you, she cannot offer her full affection to you, she maintains that emotional distance. Why? I will answer with what she probably wouldn't be able to say to you, even if she knew it: she's not sexually attracted to you, and she very much needs to be. 

Again, perhaps I assume to much as I project . . .


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> GI,
> 
> At risk of grossly oversimplifying:
> 
> B: Is a canine (friendly, direct, approval seeking)
> 
> B2: Is a feline (hard to read, easily crowded, casually cruel)



Nailed.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> This is the vibe I get from your situation. Of course, that is only because I recognize it from the brutal years of my own marriage. We tend to project our own experience onto the stories we read here; I am fully aware of that.
> 
> That being said, I can attest to the fact that sometimes we don't "know" what the problem is, or at least we are so fearful of what it might be that we refuse to drag it into the light and examine it. So you might be right about her having "deep rooted insecurities and discomforts." Perhaps she cannot face the possibility that the problem, once confronted, won't be solvable. To her (consciously or subconsciously) living like this is an acceptable tradeoff for not having to risk that possibility.
> 
> She cannot relax around you, she cannot offer her full affection to you, she maintains that emotional distance. Why? I will answer with what she probably wouldn't be able to say to you, even if she knew it: she's not sexually attracted to you, and she very much needs to be.
> 
> Again, perhaps I assume to much as I project . . .


I think you may be very well right. Last time I talked to her, I said "i'd like you to really dig inside and explore how you feel sexually. about yourself and about us." she took it in and responded "well I know i find you sexually attractive". "i also sometimes really do feel exhausted at night. and I do have a harder time getting going as easy as you, which is probably why i dont start things as much as you do". 

So she said she's sexually attracted to me during what seemed to be a very comfortable discussion, and without me asking or whining about our sexual encounters. But by the same token, what else would she say to me during this discussion? "I really have no interest in you sexually, thats why I dont initiate"? no way she could say that even if she felt it. 

This all likely goes back to what MEM and others have said, shes not sexually attracted to me. And its likely a respect issue. I really hate to think shes not attracted to me like that, but I also don't want to pretend things eitehr.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> I think you may be very well right. Last time I talked to her, I said "i'd like you to really dig inside and explore how you feel sexually. about yourself and about us." she took it in and responded "well I know i find you sexually attractive". "i also sometimes really do feel exhausted at night. and I do have a harder time getting going as easy as you, which is probably why i dont start things as much as you do".
> 
> So she said she's sexually attracted to me during what seemed to be a very comfortable discussion, and without me asking or whining about our sexual encounters. But by the same token, what else would she say to me during this discussion? "I really have no interest in you sexually, thats why I dont initiate"? no way she could say that even if she felt it.
> 
> This all likely goes back to what MEM and others have said, shes not sexually attracted to me. And its likely a respect issue. I really hate to think shes not attracted to me like that, but I also don't want to pretend things eitehr.


"I find you sexually attractive," is woman speak for what she tells herself, which is, "You are my husband so I MUST be sexually attracted to you, right?"

It is terrifying to not feel sexual attraction for your husband. Numbing and terrifying and isolating--and yes, you know that feeling from your own corner of this ring.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tron said:


> I don't doubt this.
> 
> Has she ever really tried to deal with the CSA at all? In therapy? It is uncomfortable.


I know. It has to be difficult as all hell. I think the MC would haev eventually gotten to a point where she could connect this CSA to how she carries herself today. 

I also have a hard time putting so much stock in this as the primary driver for how she feels about me or sex with me. Maybe its more about how she feels about herself.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> "I find you sexually attractive," is woman speak for what she tells herself, which is, "You are my husband so I MUST be sexually attracted to you, right?"
> 
> It is terrifying to not feel sexual attraction for your husband. Numbing and terrifying and isolating--and yes, you know that feeling from your own corner of this ring.


totally. whats crazy to me is when I look around at other couples, I see women in our circle with men who are my most social standards not attractive/weatlhy/particularly interesting/funny, and yet I wonder, do they too not find their husbands/boyfriends attractive? Like what happens when these guys take thier shirts off and thier bellies drop down? Do the wives still have sex with them? 

More proof that I very much dont get it. by it I mean women.


----------



## john117

Sex is mental as much as it is physical. It's pretty simple.. The brain sees what it wants to see.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> totally. whats crazy to me is when I look around at other couples, I see women in our circle with men who are my most social standards not attractive/weatlhy/particularly interesting/funny, and yet I wonder, do they too not find their husbands/boyfriends attractive? Like what happens when these guys take thier shirts off and thier bellies drop down? Do the wives still have sex with them?


Sure--there is a very wide range of physical types that I think I could be sexually attracted to if combined with the right personality traits. But not all women are attracted to the same thing. And I also think that most women don't spend a lot of time closely analyzing what *does* turn them on--they go with the social norm of "good looking, nice body, treats me well" etc. After that, they just expect that they'll want to fvck their husbands . . . and when they don't, it can be as confusing and scary as hell, and in SOME women, I suspect this manifests as indifference, even hostility. 

Sometimes attraction is more subtle than "good looking, nice body, treats me well," and without that subtly, you don't get the great sexual chemistry. You might get the duty sex, even lovingly given sex, but you don't get the raw animal passion. Many men are just fine with that, but some are not. My husband is not one of the men who can settle for anything less than the "real thing." That is part of the reason we struggled for all those years. 



BostonBruins32 said:


> More proof that I very much dont get it. by it I mean women.


Join the club. It seems to be quite a large one. I don't even get myself half the time, to tell you the truth.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> Sure--there is a very wide range of physical types that I think I could be sexually attracted to if combined with the right personality traits. But not all women are attracted to the same thing. And I also think that most women don't spend a lot of time closely analyzing what *does* turn them on--they go with the social norm of "good looking, nice body, treats me well" etc. After that, they just expect that they'll want to fvck their husbands . . . and when they don't, it can be as confusing and scary as hell, and in SOME women, I suspect this manifests as indifference, even hostility.
> 
> Sometimes attraction is more subtle than "good looking, nice body, treats me well," and without that subtly, you don't get the great sexual chemistry. You might get the duty sex, even lovingly given sex, but you don't get the raw animal passion. Many men are just fine with that, but some are not. My husband is not one of the men who can settle for anything less than the "real thing." That is part of the reason we struggled for all those years.
> 
> 
> 
> Join the club. It seems to be quite a large one. I don't even get myself half the time, to tell you the truth.


Ugh. Depressing to think about. I hope your projection with her is wrong. Or I hope it filters out sooner rather than later if true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: LD women, please chime int*

B,
Let's assume that - under duress - you are getting a good mix of truth, half truth and outright untruth. Because B2 IS under duress, as she has realized that kids, house upgrade etc. are contingent on better behavior. 

Half truth: 
- physically she finds you appealing
- behaviorally she finds you to be unsexy

Guessing that her short list of turn offs are:
- Overly transparent - your sleeve is constantly and loudly broadcasting. At times this creates a BAD feedback loop where you key off her emotional state and reflect that back at her. 
- You spending too much time staring at her/trying to read her. 
- Your discomfort with silence. 

Part of her fatigue at night has to do with an interaction style that leaves her feeling drained and or tense. 

-----
She doesn't know how to tell you to talk less and show less emotion because she is likely afraid of making you a self conscious basket case. 

Full Truth: I do have a harder time getting going than you do.

B,
Next time you have sex, well don't. Instead play a game. Rules are simple. 
1. She wears a blindfold 
2. She lies face down on the bed in panties only
3. You 'only' use your hands and you cannot directly touch her breasts or Vag

Duration is 15 minutes max. The goal is for both of you to see if you can work with her responsive desire. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> I think you may be very well right. Last time I talked to her, I said "i'd like you to really dig inside and explore how you feel sexually. about yourself and about us." she took it in and responded "well I know i find you sexually attractive". "i also sometimes really do feel exhausted at night. and I do have a harder time getting going as easy as you, which is probably why i dont start things as much as you do".
> 
> So she said she's sexually attracted to me during what seemed to be a very comfortable discussion, and without me asking or whining about our sexual encounters. But by the same token, what else would she say to me during this discussion? "I really have no interest in you sexually, thats why I dont initiate"? no way she could say that even if she felt it.
> 
> This all likely goes back to what MEM and others have said, shes not sexually attracted to me. And its likely a respect issue. I really hate to think shes not attracted to me like that, but I also don't want to pretend things eitehr.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Ugh. Depressing to think about. I hope your projection with her is wrong. Or I hope it filters out sooner rather than later if true.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not meant to be depressing, BB. If there is something she needs from you to trip her desire, would you be willing to do it? Can you tell her that? Would this give her something to ruminate on?

I don't know, sometimes looking at our sexual desire can shake a person's sense of self pretty deeply, particularly if it falls very outside of the mainstream--and _very_ particularly for people with conservative or religious upbringings and, I'm betting, a history of CSA.


----------



## BostonBruins32

There's something really true about the talking part. Last month or so I've become a man of less words. 2 things I notice: she talks much more than in a long time and she seems to seek me out more around the house(and outside house) .

She called me two times today to say hello. 2 calls is one more than norm. But zero calls and zero texts was norm 4 months ago. Mem is right, stop talking so much and don't act like a *****. Now she's seeking a kiss while I'm in other room. She also seems to respond really well when I make concrete plans. She's a very organized person (neat freak, filed documents at home), so you can almost smell her in heat when I get home and have a plan. Or when u don't consult her and just make dinner if she's working late. 

So my point is that the advice here rings true: shut up and just do & and execute decisions with high confidence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> So my point is that the advice here rings true: shut up and just do & and execute decisions with high confidence.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And give her a good spanking. 

Just kidding! Projecting! Projecting!


----------



## Tron

GettingIt said:


> And give her a good spanking.
> 
> Just kidding! Projecting! Projecting!


Ooooooh! You're so naughty.


----------



## Married but Happy

BostonBruins32 said:


> totally. whats crazy to me is when I look around at other couples, I see women in our circle with men who are my most social standards not attractive/weatlhy/particularly interesting/funny, and yet I wonder, do they too not find their husbands/boyfriends attractive? Like what happens when these guys take thier shirts off and thier bellies drop down? Do the wives still have sex with them?
> 
> More proof that I very much dont get it. by it I mean women.


The flip side is good looking men with dumpy dowdy women. What happens when they take their blouses and bras off and their bellies and boobs sag and stretch?

Here's the thing - in a good relationship, you look past all that and see the person you love. Flaws don't matter much if at all, and you don't see them. On the other hand, if you mostly notice the flaws, you are NOT in love - and maybe it's then time to end it and move on.


----------



## john117

While I have noticed increased chattiness from my wife when I do not respond or initiate conversations this does not translate into anything additional. We have gone literally weeks with little conversation unrelated to her work or the house etcetera. Some super introvert people thrive on it.

In contrast intimacy is more likely when I am a lot more attentive to her non emotional needs, engage her in conversation, etc. Of course she does not reciprocate - I could recognize most of her coworkers from video conferences or office parties, while she barely knows anything related to me or my work. I suppose you could say she's an entitled princess, growing up in the 1% tends to do that.

Thankfully there's a lot more B2's than J2's...


----------



## MEM2020

B,
This is great. Change behavior and observe. 

And do NOT say to B2: I notice you are happier now that I'm talking less. 


QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7517105]There's something really true about the talking part. Last month or so I've become a man of less words. 2 things I notice: she talks much more than in a long time and she seems to seek me out more around the house(and outside house) .

She called me two times today to say hello. 2 calls is one more than norm. But zero calls and zero texts was norm 4 months ago. Mem is right, stop talking so much and don't act like a *****. Now she's seeking a kiss while I'm in other room. She also seems to respond really well when I make concrete plans. She's a very organized person (neat freak, filed documents at home), so you can almost smell her in heat when I get home and have a plan. Or when u don't consult her and just make dinner if she's working late. 

So my point is that the advice here rings true: shut up and just do & and execute decisions with high confidence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> This is great. Change behavior and observe.
> 
> And do NOT say to B2: I notice you are happier now that I'm talking less.
> 
> 
> QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7517105]There's something really true about the talking part. Last month or so I've become a man of less words. 2 things I notice: she talks much more than in a long time and she seems to seek me out more around the house(and outside house) .
> 
> She called me two times today to say hello. 2 calls is one more than norm. But zero calls and zero texts was norm 4 months ago. Mem is right, stop talking so much and don't act like a *****. Now she's seeking a kiss while I'm in other room. She also seems to respond really well when I make concrete plans. She's a very organized person (neat freak, filed documents at home), so you can almost smell her in heat when I get home and have a plan. Or when u don't consult her and just make dinner if she's working late.
> 
> So my point is that the advice here rings true: shut up and just do & and execute decisions with high confidence.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


[/QUOTE]

yes, no doubt. time will tell. All I can say is today was better than yesterday, than last week, than last month etc.

I still have serious concerns, but I feel like I'm taking action rather than T2-ing it. That poor guy just found out his wife was indeed having an affair on a different thread.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
You have courage, he doesn't. You are willing to do what's right even when you fear the consequence. 

I hope you stay the course. And that includes taking control of the pace at which you expand your commitment level to B2.

Right now she is thinking that soon she will be in a position to claim that everything is 'fixed', and therefore you need to proceed with house/baby on HER timeline. 

The only way to fix your issues is to demand some level of respect. In this case, that means defining a timeline that YOU are happy about for doubling down on your commitment to the marriage. 

In the most concise manner you need to convey that B2 needs to demonstrate that treating you well is a priority to her. And that you expect a full year of her proving herself as a committed wife before moving ahead with a house. And an additional 6-12 months before adding a baby. 

If this was all just a short term tactic for getting what she wants, she will get super aggressive. Because if that's the case, she has no intention of you creating a now normal where your needs matter as much as hers. 

If however she recognizes that she's been treating you badly and that you won't tolerate that any longer, she will accept this as a fair consequence for 4 years of being a very selfish wife. 

If she never acknowledges that her behavior was selfish, what will stop her from reverting to pattern after she gets what she wants from you? 

And talk is cheap. She could say she is sorry 10 times. But if she doesn't believe it ought to impact your commitment timeline, that means she doesn't really believe in her heart that she did anything wrong. 

But here's the thing. When YOU change the commitment timeline you are sending her a very strong message which is that YOU know you deserve to be treated better than that, you aren't going to tolerate any more of it, and she now needs to demonstrate that she is worthy of increased commitment level from you. 




yes, no doubt. time will tell. All I can say is today was better than yesterday, than last week, than last month etc.

I still have serious concerns, but I feel like I'm taking action rather than T2-ing it. That poor guy just found out his wife was indeed having an affair on a different thread.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jld

mem11363 said:


> b,
> this is great. Change behavior and observe.
> 
> And do not say to b2: I notice you are happier now that i'm talking less.


Is transparency really so bad? Or is it just because B is the canine and he is male and so somehow it is unappealing?

I am really trying to get dh to be more transparent, because I think even if it scares me a little, it brings us closer.

It must depend on whether the canine is male or female and who is seeking the closeness.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
Your H, is inherently low affect and therefore hard to read. 

B is higher affect and - from his wife's standpoint he's overly needy and transparent. 




jld said:


> Is transparency really so bad? Or is it just because B is the canine and he is male and so somehow it is unappealing?
> 
> I am really trying to get dh to be more transparent, because I think even if it scares me a little, it brings us closer.
> 
> It must depend on whether the canine is male or female and who is seeking the closeness.


----------



## jld

Okay, thank you.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Is transparency really so bad? ........ I am really trying to get dh to be more transparent, because I think even if it scares me a little, it brings us closer.



Depends on what you perceive as being transparent. After 30 years I can read my wife like an open book (all 20-30 neurons of it ). So it's not an issue of transparency. After 30 years (or 300) she can't read me - few people can - but I do not make my emotions hide. Just my intentions  funny how I got 95% my moms comfortable with people personality (government bureaucrat) and this 5% aspect of it from Major Dad, the archetypal soldier straight out of Central Casting.

Are you concerned with emotional transparency vis a vis feelings, stress, thoughts, etc or with non emotional, practical transparency like job issues, responsibilities, actions, etc.

Maybe DH wears the corporate face too long?


----------



## usmarriedguy

BostonBruins32 said:


> This all likely goes back to what MEM and others have said, shes not sexually attracted to me. And its likely a respect issue. I really hate to think shes not attracted to me like that, but I also don't want to pretend things eitehr.


Personally I think that you are picking this because that is what you want to believe. 

Probably because her not wanting sex as often as you do is just too far outside of your own point of view and you need to manufacture a "reason" that is acceptable to you. 

I was just watching 'Through The Wormhole' with Morgan Freeman and the subject was that people need to assign a reason for unknowns in the world and those reason are usually not scientific but emotionally driven.

I am not saying that there is no possibility that she does not find you sexually attractive and she would otherwise be a sexual person but I think the probability of that is very low.


----------



## john117

It somehow seems more palatable to accept that you're not the main course rather than accept your spouse is not hungry.

Which is the second reason I don't find MMSL etc as widely applicable as the board would have is believe.

If someone has sexual fulfillment needs they'll have those needs met with their partner, the mailman, their kids nanny, or anyone in between but they will be sexual nonetheless. 

Today's American society has somehow demonized sex enough that any expressions of desire are seen as lewd or Hollywood-esque rather than manifestations of one's personality. 

For all I know the thought of being sexually active past 50 in my wife's culture is as alien as the thought of taking up scuba diving or hang gliding.

It is not just sex - it's a lot of other things that I see common with others in that age. Mid 50's is time for a cat, kids out of the house, and so on. Maybe reward the husband a few times a year. For some people this creeps earlier into their 40's and 30's and hello TAM...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Are you concerned with emotional transparency vis a vis feelings, stress, thoughts, etc or with non emotional, practical transparency like job issues, responsibilities, actions, etc.
> 
> Maybe DH wears the corporate face too long?


Emotional transparency. I was just crying about it to him this morning. I need more words and more affection. And I am tired of giving explicit instructions. I will do it out of what feels like desperate need, but it just makes me cry that after so many years, I don't matter enough for him to learn from what I repeatedly say and then just do it, rather than just not care, which is how I interpret having to repeat myself how many gosh darn times.

Nobody here has a perfect marriage, john. Nobody anywhere. There are always issues, even between people who genuinely love each other and have good will towards each other. Humans are just not perfectly compatible.

Sorry to interject my story here, BB. Back to your thread.


----------



## GettingIt_2

john117 said:


> If someone has sexual fulfillment needs they'll have those needs met with their partner, the mailman, their kids nanny, or anyone in between but they will be sexual nonetheless.


This is true for some people, but obviously not all. My husband and I are both highly sexual and lasted through a ten year period of being sexually unfulfilled by one another and by any other person. People find ways to cope; it's not pretty emotionally, but it does happen.


----------



## john117

GettingIt said:


> This is true for some people, but obviously not all. My husband and I are both highly sexual and lasted through a ten year period of being sexually unfulfilled by one another and by any other person. People find ways to cope; it's not pretty emotionally, but it does happen.



I know - but you're likely the exception, rather than the rule. As is much of what we read on TAM


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I know - but you're likely the exception, rather than the rule. As is much of what we read on TAM


Are you sure? If even the NYT is running an article on sexlessness in marriage, it is probably more widespread than we realize. And my therapist said, when I asked her, that there is a ton of it.

That is where GettingIt's ideas for men can come in helpful.


----------



## john117

The problem may be widespread but despite how many articles are written about it no generally successful solutions are available. That is what I was referring to...

Remember how the scientific way works


----------



## jld

You always make me laugh, John. 

FW says that the problem is sexual mismatch. AP suggested that women lose their drive during childrearing. GI offered that men can get it back by becoming more secure and inspiring attraction in their wives. There are three ideas there.

And do we know if it was different in the past? Maybe there has always been sexless marriage, but nobody talked about it?


----------



## MEM2020

US,
If she was single, I'm guessing M2 would masturbate 5-10 times a year. So I agree that lots of folks have low drives, more so as we get older. B2 likely has a somewhat low drive. 

So then, why does an LD spouse engage in sex? 

1. Physical: Their HD partner has found a way to make the experience enjoyable for them on a raw physical level. 

2. Emotional: 
- Pleasing their HD partner makes them feel happy
- Displeasing their HD partner makes them feel bad/guilty
- Feeling closer/more bonded to their spouse feels good to them
- The absence of sex makes them anxious about the stability of their marriage 

3. Rational cost/benefit: They genuinely love their partner, desire to maintain a happy/mutually beneficial relationship, and consciously choose to have sex even though the experience itself is merely - meh. 

------
In Boston's case I think two separate factors were at work:
- He was crowding her in and out of the bedroom which actually did turn her off AND
- He was unintentionally rewarding her for a lot of very selfish behavior 

Selfishness plus LD = sexlessness 

He is now resetting her expectations.




usmarriedguy said:


> Personally I think that you are picking this because that is what you want to believe.
> 
> Probably because her not wanting sex as often as you do is just too far outside of your own point of view and you need to manufacture a "reason" that is acceptable to you.
> 
> I was just watching 'Through The Wormhole' with Morgan Freeman and the subject was that people need to assign a reason for unknowns in the world and those reason are usually not scientific but emotionally driven.
> 
> I am not saying that there is no possibility that she does not find you sexually attractive and she would otherwise be a sexual person but I think the probability of that is very low.







usmarriedguy said:


> Personally I think that you are picking this because that is what you want to believe.
> 
> Probably because her not wanting sex as often as you do is just too far outside of your own point of view and you need to manufacture a "reason" that is acceptable to you.
> 
> I was just watching 'Through The Wormhole' with Morgan Freeman and the subject was that people need to assign a reason for unknowns in the world and those reason are usually not scientific but emotionally driven.
> 
> I am not saying that there is no possibility that she does not find you sexually attractive and she would otherwise be a sexual person but I think the probability of that is very low.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> 2. Emotional:
> - Pleasing their HD partner makes them feel happy
> - Displeasing their HD partner makes them feel bad/guilty
> - Feeling closer/more bonded to their spouse feels good to them
> - The absence of sex makes them anxious about the stability of their marriage
> 
> 3. Rational cost/benefit: They genuinely love their partner, desire to maintain a happy/mutually beneficial relationship, and consciously choose to have sex even though the experience itself is merely - meh.


Lol. I think this is all true.


----------



## john117

Short answer: yes

Long answer: people are talking more about their issues and people also live longer so expectations are different.


----------



## jld

You are saying yes to the question that it was different in the past?


----------



## john117

It was.

In the past women were also not as assertive sexually or as independent (both within the framework of marriage) and had been conditioned differently by culture, media, etc.

Likewise men have dropped expectations largely for the same reason, they cannot "demand" stuff that would have been self evident a generation ago. The dynamics of marriage are changing, from both sides.

It's a moving target but suffice to say it's more of an issue now than 30 years ago.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> It somehow seems more palatable to accept that you're not the main course rather than accept your spouse is not hungry.
> 
> Which is the second reason I don't find MMSL etc as widely applicable as the board would have is believe.
> 
> If someone has sexual fulfillment needs they'll have those needs met with their partner, the mailman, their kids nanny, or anyone in between but they will be sexual nonetheless.
> 
> Today's American society has somehow demonized sex enough that any expressions of desire are seen as lewd or Hollywood-esque rather than manifestations of one's personality.
> 
> For all I know the thought of being sexually active past 50 in my wife's culture is as alien as the thought of taking up scuba diving or hang gliding.
> 
> It is not just sex - it's a lot of other things that I see common with others in that age. Mid 50's is time for a cat, kids out of the house, and so on. Maybe reward the husband a few times a year. For some people this creeps earlier into their 40's and 30's and hello TAM...


I'm early/mid 50's and I'd say its 100 times a year so that is several thousand times over the 31 Y.

I think the exact opposite of you @ American society. It is porn and sex OBSESSED. Reading TAM makes me think more so. 

A hundred years ago I'm SURE marital sexlessness was more common. Was there any reliable birth control? I think lots of people used abstinence as birth control AND medicine was WAY more primitive so people had serious medical problems and when one is in pain, undernourished, etc and doesn't feel good, bye bye libido...

I find stress a libido killer but H says stress makes him want sex more to "relax". Like I said, I'm not doing it unless I think I can O and if I am uber stressed- that's a "no". Your W with her 80H work weeks has got to be constantly stressed. If you get away for a nice relaxing vacation with lots of undivided attention, does the sex increase? If so, the stressful lifestyle is the problem and if you can give her what she wants regarding early retirement, you might find the sex increases with the stress decrease...


----------



## john117

I used to think the same. In fact, growing up in Europe, in a rather backward part thereof, we thought the same. America was Sodoma and Gomorrah, pass the gravy and salt please. As grad students in a large state college filled with coeds we thought it was way too easy to score.

Were we in for a surprise or what.

Most of the chicks were friendly, loved our thick continental accent and ways, but they were not dating material. Most of us dated fellow foreign students, older women - long stories there - etc. Most of us found American women too conservative.

Fast forward thirty years and Pareto's rule comes to mind. 20% of the people are having 80% of the sex... I live in a conservative Midwestern state and it is 80-20 galore...

In the USA we want to think of ourselves as overly sexual and blame the media. I don't think so. There was far more action in my village in the mid 1970s for crying out loud 

There is the appearance of sex, but, I feel for the 80% that's all there is. For the 20% sure, but not the 80%.

The stress is a main reason. In the village, no cable or internet, no smartphone, no stress. Here death march schedules. I just hit home from a 12 hour shift. Hoorah! What sex?

Just personal opinion of course.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> The stress is a main reason. In the village, no cable or internet, no smartphone, no stress. Here death march schedules. I just hit home from a 12 hour shift. Hoorah! What sex?
> 
> Just personal opinion of course.


There ya go. ITA. 

How can you change your couple lifestyle to reduce the stress?


----------



## john117

This couple has no stress. This guy has no stress. 

His wife unfortunately can't compartmentalize and as a result everything goes into one big cauldron and is stirred 24/7. Thanks to her work and the relentless need to be perfect she works long hours and can't relax. 

It could be that the long hours started as just a ruse to keep me at bay, and unfortunately it became a self fulfilling prophecy. No good way around it. Long hours -> perfection -> expectations galore -> long hours.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> This couple has no stress. This guy has no stress.
> 
> His wife unfortunately can't compartmentalize and as a result everything goes into one big cauldron and is stirred 24/7. Thanks to her work and the relentless need to be perfect she works long hours and can't relax.


I think it is typical of women not to be able to compartmentalize. YOU might not be stressed but your wife is and she is half the couple.

I thought you mentioned she wants to retire early/soon? and you want her to keep up the pace to pay for you dd medical school? =ongoing stress

...and self fulfilling prophecy


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> Your stats are backwards



The 80-20 is not a statistic, just a way to say that the numbers are skewed. Sex frequency is not evenly distributed due to age and other reasons. 

Look up Pareto's Law. I see in the article that 80% of married people are having sex "a few times a month" but if you go by the media or TAM sex is the only thing in most people's' minds...

Check the link below and it paints a different picture for my age group (younger than me actually) ... Especially married and 2-3 times a week or more (4+) in 40-49... It's a little over 20% while the rest (a few times a month to weekly or less) is at the 80%. Give or take of course.

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> I thought you mentioned she wants to retire early/soon? and you want her to keep up the pace to pay for you dd medical school? =ongoing stress
> 
> 
> 
> ...and self fulfilling prophecy



She wants a lot of things. I want a Porsche 911 too. And a unicorn or three.

Two years ago when she took the job she had an opportunity to work for the local university medical center to do real research, publishable research. She turned them down because the pay was bad.

Her long hours are largely self inflicted, her colleagues do not work 70 hour weeks. They all work from home so that is a huge factor in slowing down the pace and making the work last till 10 pm every night. 

Figure 2 hours for cooking or cleaning or watching tv, another 2 exercising etc, and more hours because she does not want to call it a day but always keeps checking, and that's your 14 hour days.

Much of the stress is also self inflicted - paint enough coworkers a nice shade of BPD black and good luck accepting or trusting them. 

I work 7 hours a day and out produce most of my colleagues because I'm focused. She spends half an hour over a single paragraph email just to make sure she looks good.


----------



## Blonde

You mentioned your neighborhood and wealth and whatnot. Could you downscale and live on your income? Let her retire or change to something with less stress?

I would hate a work at home job because I can't compartmentalize either. When I leave for the day, I unwind on the hour drive home, and then I can relax when I walk in the door... H works at home for parts of his job and does it successfully.

What if you just said "YES" when she says she hates her job and wants to quit?


----------



## john117

If you're 75 it is ;rofl: 

Stuck watching some deaf chick + broke musician guy + toxic parents Netflix film... I'd rather get back to my beloved toaster ovens at work...


----------



## usmarriedguy

MEM11363 said:


> In Boston's case I think two separate factors were at work:
> - He was crowding her in and out of the bedroom which actually did turn her off AND
> - He was unintentionally rewarding her for a lot of very selfish behavior
> 
> Selfishness plus LD = sexlessness
> 
> He is now resetting her expectations.



Yes, could be that he can make himself more attractive by changing his body or behavior. It can also be that she is willing to do more as a cost of staying married. 




MEM11363 said:


> 2. Emotional:
> - Pleasing their HD partner makes them feel happy
> - Displeasing their HD partner makes them feel bad/guilty
> - Feeling closer/more bonded to their spouse feels good to them


I do not think that a lot of LD people have that emotional connection to sex. 

I guess my point is that lack of sexual desire does not equal lack of sexual attraction. It is probably more rare than common. 

All I can think in GettingIt's case where two people are HD and the sex life still bottoms is that this is a couple with some serious "other" issues. Where as Boston's marriage seems to be generally pretty good other than affection, B2 could probably even get away with her snipping if the sex was good.


----------



## BostonBruins32

usmarriedguy said:


> Yes, could be that he can make himself more attractive by changing his body or behavior. It can also be that she is willing to do more as a cost of staying married.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think that a lot of LD people have that emotional connection to sex.
> 
> I guess my point is that lack of sexual desire does not equal lack of sexual attraction. It is probably more rare than common.
> 
> All I can think in GettingIt's case where two people are HD and the sex life still bottoms is that this is a couple with some serious "other" issues. Where as Boston's marriage seems to be generally pretty good other than affection, B2 could probably even get away with her snipping if the sex was good.


My marriage has had flaws . Though verbally quiet, my wife has had a very strong personality. Her mom said she can flip the ***** switch within minutes.. I would never refer to my wife like that because she'd rip my testes out. I have an emotional personality and I think this is part of why we've had knock down Drag out battles. I sincerely think she's internally ld and can't comprehend the hd. And unfortunately her empathy chip is extremely low.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## usmarriedguy

My wife is extremely low on empathy also. 

We do an activity 6 or so times a year where we buy pizza for a small group of friends. My method would be to ask people what they enjoy and try to give each one some of their choice. My wife's method is to just go out and buy her two favorite pizzas and she does not care what anyone else wants.

You could call that simply being selfish but I think it is rooted in lack of empathy. If she enjoys those two types of pizza the most that means everyone else does also or that their preference is less important than hers.


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> You mentioned your neighborhood and wealth and whatnot. Could you downscale and live on your income? Let her retire or change to something with less stress?
> 
> 
> 
> I would hate a work at home job because I can't compartmentalize either. When I leave for the day, I unwind on the hour drive home, and then I can relax when I walk in the door... H works at home for parts of his job and does it successfully.
> 
> 
> 
> What if you just said "YES" when she says she hates her job and wants to quit?



I have no problem with her quitting and not working. However, she does. She grew up with wealth and will not likely be happy in a modest environment.

Besides, I am not very sure that I will have any further use for her given our current marital situation. Without income coming in and no marital connection as per her choice in the last five years I am not sure what's the point in staying married


----------



## john117

The pizza analogy is good. I would rotate the pizza choices or track preferences and decide.

It's hilarious to think of women lacking empathy as they're the ones with barrels full of it supposedly. Not so in many cases.

It's also funny how I have spent 30 years dealing with inanimate objects and how people interact with them and yet I have far better skills in reading people than a lot of others who are people centered. 

Empathy and patience... If I ever had a Coat of Arms that would be the motto for sure.


----------



## MEM2020

US,
Really agree with the lack of sexually driven emotional connection.

At first I thought your comment about attraction and desire was contradictory. And then I started laughing because it perfectly describes my situation. M2 is attracted to me, and she's LD. And that's why the whole responsive desire thing has always worked so well for us. 

If B2's wife truly is attracted to him, then all she has to do is: 
- Relax and let her responsive desire kick in
And all B has to do is: 
- Learn how to take B2 from neutral to warm in a way that she finds enjoyable
AND 
- Completely rewire their conflict dynamic

She HATES long conversations about his feelings and they erode her respect for him. 

She hates it when he gets really upset/angry/sad. And HATES it more when he raises his voice. Not just with her, but also with their daughter. In fact maybe even more so with their daughter. 





usmarriedguy said:


> Yes, could be that he can make himself more attractive by changing his body or behavior. It can also be that she is willing to do more as a cost of staying married.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think that a lot of LD people have that emotional connection to sex.
> 
> I guess my point is that lack of sexual desire does not equal lack of sexual attraction. It is probably more rare than common.
> 
> All I can think in GettingIt's case where two people are HD and the sex life still bottoms is that this is a couple with some serious "other" issues. Where as Boston's marriage seems to be generally pretty good other than affection, B2 could probably even get away with her snipping if the sex was good.


----------



## GettingIt_2

MEM11363 said:


> US,
> Really agree with the lack of sexually driven emotional connection.
> 
> At first I thought your comment about attraction and desire was contradictory. And then I started laughing because it perfectly describes my situation. M2 is attracted to me, and she's LD. And that's why the whole responsive desire thing has always worked so well for us.
> 
> If B2's wife truly is attracted to him, then all she has to do is:
> - Relax and let her responsive desire kick in
> And all B has to do is:
> - Learn how to take B2 from neutral to warm in a way that she finds enjoyable
> AND
> - Completely rewire their conflict dynamic
> 
> She HATES long conversations about his feelings and they erode her respect for him.
> 
> She hates it when he gets really upset/angry/sad. And HATES it more when he raises his voice. Not just with her, but also with their daughter. In fact maybe even more so with their daughter.


I always have a hard time accurately assessing what "type" of LD a poster's spouse has. It sometimes becomes a bit more clear as the thread unfolds with updates and added info; but I never feel entirely sure. BB's wife can orgasm and enjoy sex, so she seems to have a drive. Her ability to enjoy sex with him also indicates that sexual attraction does (or can) exist. However, her desire for sex with him is easily affected by his particular emotional make up and related behavior--so it seems logical to focus efforts here. I think that much of the advice given to BB has been towards trying to trip her desire (or, more to the point, trying to avoid turning her off). 

So MEM's advice to minimize the emotive conversation and focus on what makes her desire sex is good, in my opinion. I don't really have a feel for whether or not BB's wife *only* has responsive desire, but since I think it's likely that she is capable of responsive desire (I think most of us are), it's a good path to follow as BB tries to rewire things.


----------



## Anon Pink

GettingIt said:


> I always have a hard time accurately assessing what "type" of LD a poster's spouse has. It sometimes becomes a bit more clear as the thread unfolds with updates and added info; but I never feel entirely sure. BB's wife can orgasm and enjoy sex, so she seems to have a drive. Her ability to enjoy sex with him also indicates that sexual attraction does (or can) exist. However, her desire for sex with him is easily affected by his particular emotional make up and related behavior--so it seems logical to focus efforts here. I think that much of the advice given to BB has been towards trying to trip her desire (or, more to the point, trying to avoid turning her off).
> 
> So MEM's advice to minimize the emotive conversation and focus on what makes her desire sex is good, in my opinion. I don't really have a feel for whether or not BB's wife *only* has responsive desire, but since I think it's likely that she is capable of responsive desire (I think most of us are), it's a good path to follow as BB tries to rewire things.



I think this is where her CSA comes in. I can't speak for all CSA's but I consciously turned a maybe into a NO routinely. I remember very clearly being uncomfortable with feeling aroused even though I was slightly miffed at him for something. You could call it resentment, but I honestly think it had more to do with discomfort with sexual arousal than feeling resentment that he watched TV while I picked up the toys. 

Just last night we were laying in bed watching a movie and he curled up next to me and rubbed my thigh. I had not been in the mood but it instantly hit. I started laughing and told him what was going on.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Just catching up. 

Good weekend. Some small things I noticed:

-my reaction to our daughters hissy fits can make or break my wife's mood for the next 3 hours. When I diffuse a situation with Tom brady-like coolness my wife draws closer to me shortly after, affection or kind words. 
-when I play very actively with our daughter in public or at home , my wife seems to glow about it. 
-ran a road race this weekend and did really well. Wife posted photos of me and daughter and made me pose with award so she could post all over facebook. She was far more excited than I was and her including me on public posts on facebook is something she sorta had stopped doing for a year or so. This is petty but she is lately proclaiming to the world things about me , photos of us, etc. 
-while in store, wife pinched and slapped my ass. First time in a long time.
-she has been aggressively seeking a day or weekend trip for us , her $. To be honest, she's not as skilled at travel or trip planning, but she was trying very hard. This was before the weekend age started looking but she told me over the weekend abour it and kept looking over the weekend .
-last few night in bed she's been very cuddly . She's on the rag and usually feels bloated and cuddles less. At the risk of forfeiting my man card, the cuddling felt right. Given the behaviors I'm seeing , I felt close enough to her to accept cuddle.

So these are the key actions from the weekend. Major takeaway is that my connection with our daughter carries heavy weight, especially exceptional patience and calmness. Additionally she seems to want to be near me more. I also witnessed her catch herself right before she was about to bark at me, pause quick and address something more calmly. Much appreciated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> -my reaction to our daughters hissy fits can make or break my wife's mood for the next 3 hours. When I diffuse a situation with Tom brady-like coolness my wife draws closer to me shortly after, affection or kind words.
> 
> So these are the key actions from the weekend. Major takeaway is that my connection with our daughter carries heavy weight, especially exceptional patience and calmness. Additionally she seems to want to be near me more. I also witnessed her catch herself right before she was about to bark at me, pause quick and address something more calmly. Much appreciated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My husband's ability to remain even-keel around the kids is a HUGE factor for me. It's not that I don't understand that kids sometimes are hard to take, I just feel very shut down towards him sexually when he's projecting his mood onto his interaction with the kids. 

He's worked on this a lot--if he's struggling and feels like he can't have a positive interaction with the kids, he'll remove himself from the vicinity. And by "positive" I don't mean that he can't be disciplining them--he's very good at discipline when he's in the right frame of mind. When he's not, it comes across as bullying them, or taking out his stress and frustration on them, which is a huge turn off. 

Just yesterday he calmly dealt with one of the kids in my presence and as soon as the kid left the room, I looked at him and "you are so hot" popped out of my mouth. He looked sort of puzzled, and I don't know if he made the connection, but the rush of good feeling was instantaneous for me. 

From my experience, being with a person who tends to not be able to apply their emotions narrowly, keeps me always on edge, always wondering how situations are going to play out. I can't trust that person to approach situations in a (reasonably) objective fashion. I was uptight for years because of it. It's not that you are wrong for being the way you are; it's just that your wife has a negative reaction in her attraction to this aspect of your personality. People are different; every piece of the puzzle of you dynamic that you can fit into place will push you ahead in your relationship. This might just be one of those pieces.

I'm happy you've had some recent success with you wife. I hope it continues. Try not to get discouraged by the "two steps forward, one step back" pattern you might see. Breaking old habits is hard; keep the faith.


----------



## john117

Kids can be reasoned with especially if you start at a young - very young - age. I have done nearly 100% of the parental duties for two kids and can tell you it's not especially complicated if you put a little effort into it. 

Things get difficult as time goes by and if you don't have a good rapport with your kids by age 5-7 you're toast by age 12 and SOL by late teens. Show them you trust them and gain their trust earlier on and that's all there is to it.

I don't think it earned me any extra brownie points with the wife tho. I don't know why men find it hard to deal with their kids, to me (sole guy in PTO meetings, gymnastics classes, piano, Kumon, etc) it's what we are supposed to do.


----------



## Anon Pink

GettingIt said:


> I'm happy you've had some recent success with you wife. I hope it continues. Try not to get discouraged by the "two steps forward, one step back" pattern you might see. Breaking old habits is hard; keep the faith.


Amen! You can say that again!


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Great job!

Affection is a universally beautiful thing. There is nothing un-masculine about it. And it is a clear message that your W feels safe with you.

Props for your race. 

You might want to try a dinner time game with your W and D called 'I'd rather'. It works quite well with young children. I have a thread on it in the men's club. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Just catching up.
> 
> Good weekend. Some small things I noticed:
> 
> -my reaction to our daughters hissy fits can make or break my wife's mood for the next 3 hours. When I diffuse a situation with Tom brady-like coolness my wife draws closer to me shortly after, affection or kind words.
> -when I play very actively with our daughter in public or at home , my wife seems to glow about it.
> -ran a road race this weekend and did really well. Wife posted photos of me and daughter and made me pose with award so she could post all over facebook. She was far more excited than I was and her including me on public posts on facebook is something she sorta had stopped doing for a year or so. This is petty but she is lately proclaiming to the world things about me , photos of us, etc.
> -while in store, wife pinched and slapped my ass. First time in a long time.
> -she has been aggressively seeking a day or weekend trip for us , her $. To be honest, she's not as skilled at travel or trip planning, but she was trying very hard. This was before the weekend age started looking but she told me over the weekend abour it and kept looking over the weekend .
> -last few night in bed she's been very cuddly . She's on the rag and usually feels bloated and cuddles less. At the risk of forfeiting my man card, the cuddling felt right. Given the behaviors I'm seeing , I felt close enough to her to accept cuddle.
> 
> So these are the key actions from the weekend. Major takeaway is that my connection with our daughter carries heavy weight, especially exceptional patience and calmness. Additionally she seems to want to be near me more. I also witnessed her catch herself right before she was about to bark at me, pause quick and address something more calmly. Much appreciated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> -my reaction to our daughters hissy fits can make or break my wife's mood for the next 3 hours. When I diffuse a situation with Tom brady-like coolness my wife draws closer to me shortly after, affection or kind words.
> -when I play very actively with our daughter in public or at home , my wife seems to glow about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My doing things my wife (a SAHM that takes her job of raising our kids quite seriously) likes is exponentially increased when done with the kids. Me taking on a home improvement project is a +1. Me doing it while teaching the kids how to do it is a +10. Works in reverse as well.


----------



## john117

Is there extra credit helping with homework over Skype at the college level? +50? +100?


----------



## MEM2020

Yes John, 
However Ms. Frigidistan does not assign tangible value to those virtual points. 




john117 said:


> Is there extra credit helping with homework over Skype at the college level? +50? +100?


----------



## john117

That's Dr. Frigidistan to y'all 

There were lots of +bonus points actually prior to the Rapture and esp. between 2002-2005 when I did a lot of heavy duty landscaping work... Post Rapture bonus points are not very useful so going the extra mile is about as rare as, you get the idea.

That alone is a great indicator of how relationships deteriorate, a very useful metric. Not in a quid pro quo sense but in a more wholistic sense of a relationship's value (or lack thereof).


----------



## BostonBruins32

So tonight is one of those nights. I'm angry at her and I don't even know why. I had late work team meeting and I'm on way home. This happens a lot where I'm just so mad about even going home to her. She did nothing to earn my anger today . Is this even normal? I have 45 mins to relax a bit. Like randomly I think about why she wanted space and what she wad up to during that. Leads me to think about counseling. Leads me to think about how she bailed on it. Etc etc. Viscious cycle. Why though?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

You're withdrawing - or at least some part of you is - and as such your tolerance of her behavior is diminished... At least that's how it is for me...

Do this - the next time you hit the sheets together, think about the whole relationship the day after where you still have some good juices flowing. Think whether you're feeling better about the relationship or the same or worse - also for how long will you feel this way.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Am I? 

I have no clue. I have flashbacks of her needing space. I suspected she was emotionally connecting to someobe else during the tine she needed space. Snooping offered me no proof but something felt funny. I checked phone and facebook and found nothing. But her spending lots of time on facebook and talk of business travel ( when I came back from business trip in Oct she called for space) sets off triggers. She used to be up till 2 am on week nights watching tv or being online. I have no proof of foil play but I just to this day think about it. And snap things trigger me to get angry and anxious now. And my honest feeling is that I don't want to pay for her whole she'd insure and I soft want to wait 7 years for her to decide to leave me. This is all speculation but it comes from random triggers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> So tonight is one of those nights. I'm angry at her and I don't even know why. I had late work team meeting and I'm on way home. This happens a lot where I'm just so mad about even going home to her. She did nothing to earn my anger today . Is this even normal? I have 45 mins to relax a bit. Like randomly I think about why she wanted space and what she wad up to during that. Leads me to think about counseling. Leads me to think about how she bailed on it. Etc etc. Viscious cycle. Why though?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you feeling that, after a stressful day, you'd like a safe and comfortable marriage to go home to? A supportive partner, one you can trust emotionally?

I don't doubt you are. You need that; it's what we all want from our marriages. I would guess your anger is rooted at least partially in your marriage being so much work with so little reward at the moment. 

Letting your anger lead you into "what ifs" is really going to hurt you and everything you are working towards here, though. You are tired, you are frustrated and you are probably pretty damn lonely for a partner you can rely on emotionally. Can you not go home right away, but take a drive and try to cool down? If not can you just give her a quick hi when you get home and then hit the gym, or at least take a long shower and try to focus on letting some of this anger dissipate?

I know that it's hard cope sometimes, but if you are going to stay the course you are on, you'll need to find a way to deal with times like this. What about IC? Are you currently doing it? 

Hang in there.


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> The pizza analogy is good. I would rotate the pizza choices or track preferences and decide.
> 
> It's hilarious to think of women lacking empathy as they're the ones with barrels full of it supposedly. Not so in many cases.
> 
> It's also funny how I have spent 30 years dealing with inanimate objects and how people interact with them and yet I have far better skills in reading people than a lot of others who are people centered.
> 
> Empathy and patience... If I ever had a Coat of Arms that would be the motto for sure.


Just do what you are supposed to do as a man, and don't worry about it. I know these situations make us measure and balance relative contributions. It's our responsibility to find a relation partner who respects and likes us and is attracted to us.

It's our responsibility to find this, and also to maintain or improve it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Uho. 2 days after period "I think in getting sick" . 

Probably too sick for tgat weekend away she's planning ( her $ and ideas not mine ). I'll be sure to call her out on being sick but not sick for a getaway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

You should say "oh, that's a big surprise" and roll your eyes and walk away.


----------



## john117

treyvion said:


> Just do what you are supposed to do as a man, and don't worry about it. I know these situations make us measure and balance relative contributions.



Eeeexactly. Keep them tuition dollars a-flowin', this here Frigidistan wierd ethnic food a-cookin', thar here Lifetime Movie Network a-playin', and we are all good.

:rofl:


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> You should say "oh, that's a big surprise" and roll your eyes and walk away.


No I'm actually going to initiate in a little while.. The best defense is a good offense.. . "I'm getting sick" .. Good for you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

Hehe.. Got up to shower. Told her to be nude when I got out. She smiled said nnnooo . I got out of shower. She wasn't nude. But she took glasses off. I told to head to the bedroom with me, walk or I'll carry you. She smiled . I picked her up carried her. We giggled then I did her. Case closed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> The best defense is a good offense


:iagree: :toast:


----------



## BostonBruins32

Update. Still on track. Time shall tell but I wanted to keep this thread for those trying to find resolution. You have to remain very consistent and problem solve internally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

Well it's been a while but I got a rejection last night. Didn't seem to have excuse just "no I'm sorry". Outcome independence helped me relax and drift off to sleep. Woke up this am a bit pensive . 

So the "no" rehashes some bad rejection memories. Luckily I'm on my way to work and have a busy day to consume my brain. We had sex last weds and I got bj on Saturday. So over a week since piv, and under a week since bj. Probably not cause for concern, but the rejection without valid reason tells me I have a long way to go. As I type this, I'm likely making something of nothing , but rejections keep you on guard. Everything outside of this is going very well. Just figured I'd share, as my streak of success has hit a little speed bump.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Well it's been a while but I got a rejection last night. Didn't seem to have excuse just "no I'm sorry". Outcome independence helped me relax and drift off to sleep. Woke up this am a bit pensive .
> 
> So the "no" rehashes some bad rejection memories. Luckily I'm on my way to work and have a busy day to consume my brain. We had sex last weds and I got bj on Saturday. So over a week since piv, and under a week since bj. Probably not cause for concern, *but the rejection without valid reason tells me I have a long way to go.* As I type this, I'm likely making something of nothing , but rejections keep you on guard. Everything outside of this is going very well. Just figured I'd share, as my streak of success has hit a little speed bump.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would suggest initiating again then ask why not if she rejects again. I don't know can't be the end of the conversation.


----------



## john117

Take it for what it is, a single data point, and track overall progress.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I'm going to stay the course. My guess is that a "healthy" sex life still has it's share of rejections. I just need to remain consistent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm going to stay the course. My guess is that a "healthy" sex life still has it's share of rejections. I just need to remain consistent.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, not really. The reason why is because when one partner wants sex, it nearly always happens. The rejections don't happen because the sex life is fullfilling for both all the time. So when those odd events occur in which sex is NOT an available option, both partners know this and both partners are understanding and neither FEELS rejected.

If your wife had a bad cold you wouldn't expect sex you wouldn't feel rejected. If she had a horrible day and came to bed exhausted and irritable, you wouldn't feel rejected. 

If you have the kind of sex life that makes you feel loved and wanted, there is no feeling of rejection, no matter why sex can't happen or how often sex can't happen.

I'm just off a two week dry spell. I've been sick. My husband never felt rejected because I took care of him in other ways. I didn't feel rejected, because during those windows when symptoms were at bay I really wanted sex! He didn't want to escalate symptoms. I didn't feel rejected.

Two nights ago we looked at each other and said, HEY, we could have sex right now! And so we did and it was awesome.

A healthy sex life doesn't include feeling rejected. PERIOD.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> No, not really. The reason why is because when one partner wants sex, it nearly always happens. The rejections don't happen because the sex life is fullfilling for both all the time. So when those odd events occur in which sex is NOT an available option, both partners know this and both partners are understanding and neither FEELS rejected.
> 
> If your wife had a bad cold you wouldn't expect sex you wouldn't feel rejected. If she had a horrible day and came to bed exhausted and irritable, you wouldn't feel rejected.
> 
> If you have the kind of sex life that makes you feel loved and wanted, there is no feeling of rejection, no matter why sex can't happen or how often sex can't happen.
> 
> I'm just off a two week dry spell. I've been sick. My husband never felt rejected because I took care of him in other ways. I didn't feel rejected, because during those windows when symptoms were at bay I really wanted sex! He didn't want to escalate symptoms. I didn't feel rejected.
> 
> Two nights ago we looked at each other and said, HEY, we could have sex right now! And so we did and it was awesome.
> 
> A healthy sex life doesn't include feeling rejected. PERIOD.


good point. i should also note that i felt much better about last night shortly after i thought about it more today. my initial feeling was almost like a trigger that reminded me of the 90% rejection days that really hurt. here we go again.. etc..

I then mentally stepped back and thought, well we had "relations" this past weekend and last week mid week. This is significantly up from once a month or once every other month. I think this has to be more of a long term type deal than short term. 

And fyi, even with our recent sessions as consideration, I still very much agree that she is not sexually attracted to me. So by no means do I think things have permanently changed. I was just looking for perspective and reflecting on my internal thoughts.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Well it's been a while but I got a rejection last night. Didn't seem to have excuse just "no I'm sorry". Outcome independence helped me relax and drift off to sleep. Woke up this am a bit pensive .
> 
> So the "no" rehashes some bad rejection memories. Luckily I'm on my way to work and have a busy day to consume my brain. We had sex last weds and I got bj on Saturday. So over a week since piv, and under a week since bj. Probably not cause for concern, but the rejection without valid reason tells me I have a long way to go. As I type this, I'm likely making something of nothing , but rejections keep you on guard. Everything outside of this is going very well. Just figured I'd share, as my streak of success has hit a little speed bump.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't let the mind games start. I know it's hard not to, but take a deep breath and until it's proved otherwise, see this not as a rejection, but as her not being up for sex* last night*. I agree with TAG, try again soon.

I know you are *feeling* rejected, but try not to let this send you into a spiral of behavior that is unattractive to her, thus GIVING her a "valid" reason for rejecting you. 

I was happy to see an update from you; I've been wondering how it's been going--both in the bedroom and out.


----------



## Anon Pink

Actually, both GettingIt and I have very dirty minds and we were just wondering about the sex part....


----------



## MissScarlett

I'm going to agree with Pink. When I feel rejected its because I have been rejected.

Orgasm, no orgasm, H in town or out - whatever the circumstance - there is feeling connected and there is not feeling connected.

Of course doesn't mean things won't continue to get better - I hope they will - but don't talk yourself out of your instinct.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> good point. i should also note that i felt much better about last night shortly after i thought about it more today. my initial feeling was almost like a trigger that reminded me of the 90% rejection days that really hurt. here we go again.. etc..
> 
> I then mentally stepped back and thought, well we had "relations" this past weekend and last week mid week. This is significantly up from once a month or once every other month. I think this has to be more of a long term type deal than short term.
> 
> And fyi, even with our recent sessions as consideration, I still very much agree that she is not sexually attracted to me. So by no means do I think things have permanently changed. I was just looking for perspective and reflecting on my internal thoughts.


If you STILL feel that she isn't sexually attracted to you then THAT is what needs work. I don't get the feeling that the ONLY way for you to feel her attraction to you is via sex. It may be a very important way but is it the ONLY way?

I can't remember if you have identified behaviors you would like to see from her that would make you feel her attraction to you. If you have, are you seeing them? 

In the beginning it's very easy to get triggered back into the hopeless feeling. GettingIt and TAGs advice were spot on. Try again after you have gotten rid of that trigger.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> good point. i should also note that i felt much better about last night shortly after i thought about it more today. my initial feeling was almost like a trigger that reminded me of the 90% rejection days that really hurt. here we go again.. etc..
> 
> I then mentally stepped back and thought, well we had "relations" this past weekend and last week mid week. This is significantly up from once a month or once every other month. I think this has to be more of a long term type deal than short term.


Those sorts of triggers are common, particularly at the beginning. You are trying to undo a long cycle of rejection, so it is easy to go back to the place. Those go away when you initiate the next day and are successful. In essence, it stops being a rejection and becomes a raincheck. 



> And fyi, even with our recent sessions as consideration, I still very much agree that she is not sexually attracted to me. So by no means do I think things have permanently changed. I was just looking for perspective and reflecting on my internal thoughts.


Why do you continue to believe she is not attracted to you? Assuming that is true, what does that mean for your marriage going forward?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Anon Pink said:


> A healthy sex life doesn't include feeling rejected. PERIOD.


I liked your post, but I'm not sure I can agree with this part. I think you can still have a healthy sex life but still feel rejection if you and your spouse have uneven drives.


----------



## Anon Pink

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I liked your post, but I'm not sure I can agree with this part. I think you can still have a healthy sex life but still feel rejection if you and your spouse have uneven drives.


Sorry, I guess I didn't explain it right.

It's like USmarriedGuy... He doesn't feel rejected when his wife doesn't want sex because she is loving him enough, For HIM, in other areas that the rejection is not a personal rejection.

I wanted sex, my husband didn't. It was my body if I'm willing to risk it WTH right? I didn't take it as a personal rejection as I would have last year this time because in other areas he is able to make me feel loved and wanted.

See the difference? :scratchhead:


----------



## GettingIt_2

I think being aware of your "triggers" is key here. Be AWARE. Don't ignore behavior that is unacceptable to you or makes you feel bad, but make sure you clearly understand these feelings, where they originate, and the most productive way to deal with them based on the outcome you are working towards. 

You have a long history of negativity to deal with. Yes, it has to be dealt with, and you have every reason to feel the way you do--but impulse does not have to dictate your action. 

Move forward with intention, based on the plan you have thought through and laid out for yourself. Remind yourself of your longer term goals, and remember that there will be "speed bumps." As John pointed out, track your progress over a longer period of time, and don't let one bad night throw you off. 

AP and I are rooting for you to get totally and ravenously laid this weekend.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why do you continue to believe she is not attracted to you? Assuming that is true, what does that mean for your marriage going forward?


Yeah, what's going on with that? Did you feel like the sex and the BJ over the last week were "duty sex" and not from a place of desire on her part? Hows the day to day dynamic going? Still you hot and her cold, or is still showing some "warmer" tendencies?


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> Didn't seem to have excuse just "no I'm sorry".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





> I then mentally stepped back and thought, well we had "relations" this past weekend and last week mid week. This is significantly up from once a month or once every other month. I think this has to be more of a long term type deal than short term.


 If I've got it right (and I'm not projecting my problems to your situation) an added part of the problem was she didn't care how the lack of sex/intimacy effected you. If she's changing to "care," shouldn't a little more understanding/explanation be part of the deal? That can still come, and can easily fade with more sex this weekend. "No, I'm sorry" doesn't seem to fit the picture of a wife who has realized the trouble she helped create and is trying to fix it.


----------



## MEM2020

The real issue with Boston's situation is quite simple. WRT sex there are absolutely no 'rules of engagement'. And frankly - that's the hallmark of sexless marriages. The refuser does - whatever the Fvck they want or don't want - with neither transparency nor accountability. 

FWIW: rules cut both ways

Most of our rules of engagement benefit M2. So let's start with those:
1. Compassion rules: Compassion overrides testosterone. Sickness, emotional distress, fatigue, etc. all produce a protector/carer vibe, not a sexual vibe. 
2. Kindness rules: Our drives and desire levels differ. Overall frequency is primarily driven by a mid point compromise.
3. Rejection is cruel: And is therefore excluded from pattern. A flat NO doesn't happen and never has. A request to 'connect tomorrow' is accepted graciously and honored absent an act (flood, fire, famine, locusts, etc.) of God. 
4. A high intensity initiation is almost always accepted. Though, even then a request for tomorrow is accepted. 
5. Initiation is about a 70-30 mix - she is the 70. 
6. Guilt and/or fear driven initiation by M2 is met with reassurance and a soft request to connect tomorrow. An aggressive initiation by M2 is never declined. Full stop. 

The raw physical part of it is - good. The effort, consideration, kindness and consideration is - great. 




Tall Average Guy said:


> Those sorts of triggers are common, particularly at the beginning. You are trying to undo a long cycle of rejection, so it is easy to go back to the place. Those go away when you initiate the next day and are successful. In essence, it stops being a rejection and becomes a raincheck.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you continue to believe she is not attracted to you? Assuming that is true, what does that mean for your marriage going forward?


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> Yeah, what's going on with that? Did you feel like the sex and the BJ over the last week were "duty sex" and not from a place of desire on her part? Hows the day to day dynamic going? Still you hot and her cold, or is still showing some "warmer" tendencies?


shes warmer outside bedroom, still cold after work sometimes. I dont think shes sexually attracted to me still because there is nothing to show me otherwise, EXCEPT for the shower thing. That was curious. so I should include that in my mental analysis.

In general, she just seems to not notice I'm stronger or in better shape. She still has to be convinced when I have been initiating, meaning she wasnt really in mood, so I had to work extra at it. She doesn't compliment me physically. I am 10fold doing better with my daughter, who is a handful. I am 10fold doing better with helping out more around the house. I havent mentioned a "bad day" from work in months, despite I've had many bad days at work. So while I make these changes, I'm seeing very slow or very little return.

That said, shes more affectionate outside the bedroom. Shes talking much more about her day to me, venting a lot for an intravert. she lays in bed facing me everynight now, very close. Even last night, after she declined sex. So these are good are nice changes, but I don't see any relation to her sexual feelings. I am fairly certain she still finds other men (actors or whatever) sexually attractive. I think if the Rock or Brad pitt showed up tomorrow, and she were single, she'd drop her laundry for them. So again, 

I'm venting to all of you, but in reality, I feel much better. I'm getting a lot of flirting at me at work, which is funny because I'm not even sure how to react to it. So on some level, I must be physically and confidence-ly more attractive to women, just not my wife. But I feel much better about that than I did 4 months ago. Like the MMSL book states, positive changes will get you laid, just maybe not from your wife. No I'm not cheating, but apparently there is interest elsewhere. Theres an odd comfort in that. I'm not looking to hook up elsewhere, its just when you feel a sense of physical rejection at home, it makes the attention elsewhere that much more noticeable.


----------



## MEM2020

1812,
Quoted for truth.



1812overture said:


> If I've got it right (and I'm not projecting my problems to your situation) an added part of the problem was she didn't care how the lack of sex/intimacy effected you. If she's changing to "care," shouldn't a little more understanding/explanation be part of the deal? That can still come, and can easily fade with more sex this weekend. "No, I'm sorry" doesn't seem to fit the picture of a wife who has realized the trouble she helped create and is trying to fix it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> 1812,
> Quoted for truth.


exactly. so nice trend, but not there yet.


----------



## john117

The Rock? Brad Pitt? 

Try Anderson Cooper... It was a dark day when my girls told her...


----------



## jld

I'm glad things are going better for you, BB, and that you are feeling more confident. I am sorry it took all this for good things to happen, though. I hope you and your wife will continue working things out.

I hope your wife realizes how vulnerable she made herself. I really don't think she understands what she could have lost.

And, of course, we have not heard her side. That is true for every one of us sharing our stories here on TAM.


----------



## MEM2020

ROTFL 

M2 - crushed on AC so very hard. 

Before he came out our oldest daughter looked at her mom one day and said: Mom the guy is perfect - and yet he doesn't have a real girlfriend. Get real. 

Being a sadist - I told M2 that if AC hooked up with a guy who was hot and BI, maybe they would consider an MMF threesome. 

Good catholic that she is - she was appalled. I just laughed. 


QUOTE=john117;7775186]The Rock? Brad Pitt? 

Try Anderson Cooper... It was a dark day when my girls told her...[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

Anon,
This is QFT and also quite beautiful. 

B,
He does not understand yet, why I understand his situation so well. M2 has behaved in this selfishly toxic manner with me - just never in the bedroom. 

As for whether or not B2 loves him. Certainly it is true that she loves what he does for her. 

And just as certainly that she does not love him, the way that he loves her. 

Oh yes - I alternately chuckle and cringe reading about B2. Truly there are many things to love about M2/B2. Many things. Sadly empathy is a trait they lack. This shows in their interactions with others, and with their partners. 

Perhaps M2 feels more native desire for me. I think that is true partly because she finds my 'non violent sociopath' mode a turn on. But also M2 is a pragmatist. And from the get go she correctly perceived that the physical part of the marriage, represented the 'third rail'. Like the one in the subway. The one with all the voltage. Powers the trains. Lethal to the touch.





Anon Pink said:


> No, not really. The reason why is because when one partner wants sex, it nearly always happens. The rejections don't happen because the sex life is fullfilling for both all the time. So when those odd events occur in which sex is NOT an available option, both partners know this and both partners are understanding and neither FEELS rejected.
> 
> If your wife had a bad cold you wouldn't expect sex you wouldn't feel rejected. If she had a horrible day and came to bed exhausted and irritable, you wouldn't feel rejected.
> 
> If you have the kind of sex life that makes you feel loved and wanted, there is no feeling of rejection, no matter why sex can't happen or how often sex can't happen.
> 
> I'm just off a two week dry spell. I've been sick. My husband never felt rejected because I took care of him in other ways. I didn't feel rejected, because during those windows when symptoms were at bay I really wanted sex! He didn't want to escalate symptoms. I didn't feel rejected.
> 
> Two nights ago we looked at each other and said, HEY, we could have sex right now! And so we did and it was awesome.
> 
> A healthy sex life doesn't include feeling rejected. PERIOD.


----------



## john117

Perhaps M2 has realized she has more to lose than B2 in more ways than one.

It's all a big value proposition. J2's lol: terminology) attitude cost her a Central America cruise this past December but to her even the Crown Jewels aren't worth a run between the sheets with Prince Philip. 

That's how people think. Ultimately they run the obligatory cost/benefit study and depending on the value proposition change their attitude - or not - 

If the cost of sex outweighs all benefits for one reason or another we're back to the Brad Pitt postulate and that's it.

Lack of empathy is another issue altogether. If one considers intimacy as the third rail, that implies a little bit of a siege mentality, no? There should be enough empathy to figure out the dynamics of the relationship without resorting to elevating some aspects of it to third rail status.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> Perhaps M2 has realized she has more to lose than B2 in more ways than one.
> 
> It's all a big value proposition. J2's lol: terminology) attitude cost her a Central America cruise this past December but to her even the Crown Jewels aren't worth a run between the sheets with Prince Philip.
> 
> That's how people think. Ultimately they run the obligatory cost/benefit study and depending on the value proposition change their attitude - or not -
> 
> If the cost of sex outweighs all benefits for one reason or another we're back to the Brad Pitt postulate and that's it.
> 
> Lack of empathy is another issue altogether. If one considers intimacy as the third rail, that implies a little bit of a siege mentality, no? There should be enough empathy to figure out the dynamics of the relationship without resorting to elevating some aspects of it to third rail status.


While I like the ease of using M2, B2 etc...I always crack up when I see Dr. Mrs. LD, or the multiple variations you use.

However, MEM's terminology speaks with great clarity on the boundaries he insists upon. It's worked for him and you simply can't argue with success.


----------



## MEM2020

AP,
I genuinely appreciate that. There is a small but vocal minority on TAM who view my approach as overly aggressive. Often the word *threaten* is used. 

Seems like the only PC way to handle this type disconnect is to: File for D, site irreconcilable differences and tell friends and family you 'grew apart'. 

All I know is that if the situation were reversed, I would prefer that she do to me, exactly as I did to her. 

I believe it is a BPD trait to interpret someone else's boundary enforcement as a 'threat' to you. 






Anon Pink said:


> While I like the ease of using M2, B2 etc...I always crack up when I see Dr. Mrs. LD, or the multiple variations you use.
> 
> However, MEM's terminology speaks with great clarity on the boundaries he insists upon. It's worked for him and you simply can't argue with success.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I chose the *third rail* because it fits so well. 

99.99 percent of the time the third rail simply powers the system. 
0.01 percent of the time, someone trips on or intentionally touches or tampers with that rail. 

FWIW: We routinely do *maintenance* on the third rail. 


UOTE=john117;7779130]Perhaps M2 has realized she has more to lose than B2 in more ways than one.

It's all a big value proposition. J2's lol: terminology) attitude cost her a Central America cruise this past December but to her even the Crown Jewels aren't worth a run between the sheets with Prince Philip. 

That's how people think. Ultimately they run the obligatory cost/benefit study and depending on the value proposition change their attitude - or not - 

If the cost of sex outweighs all benefits for one reason or another we're back to the Brad Pitt postulate and that's it.

Lack of empathy is another issue altogether. If one considers intimacy as the third rail, that implies a little bit of a siege mentality, no? There should be enough empathy to figure out the dynamics of the relationship without resorting to elevating some aspects of it to third rail status.[/QUOTE]


----------



## BostonBruins32

Vent.

I begin to wonder if things are improving. She comes home after a shower for her friend. I face been solely caring for b3 all day( since 7am.) wife comes home, I go for jog. I come home shower , and b3 is napping. I get out of shower and b2 is cleaning house . I wrap arms around and say " how can I help". She coldly bites back "just pick up after yourself. "

This is 100% puzzling. I have been beyond night and day in improvement. Literally leaving nothing out, no drawers open, no glasses on counter.. Nothing. A blind man would notice. . So I told her that if she thinks I'm not holding my end of the bargain she needs to speak up. She says well your doing better.. And she remains cold. 

This isn't even like perception thing, there was nothing out when she said that and I take heavy inventory of the rooms all day to make sure I'm not leaving crap out. I'm not doing better, I'm doing light years better. 

What the ****? It's the same thing with dressing better and working out more, she is choosing not to notice. Meaning that my original consideration smells true. She's not in live with me , whether I improve or not. Yep I'm likely over reacting.but I'm dissapointed because I felt like this was the case and it still seems to be. I'm less mad that she feels as she does and more angry that she won't do the right thing and address her deepest feelings. 

Oh and ps her pajamas are on the floor and her mug from tea last night is still in he living room. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> Vent.
> 
> I begin to wonder if things are improving. She comes home after a shower for her friend. I face been solely caring for b3 all day( since 7am.) wife comes home, I go for jog. I come home shower , and b3 is napping. I get out of shower and b2 is cleaning house . I wrap arms around and say " how can I help". She coldly bites back "just pick up after yourself. "
> 
> This is 100% puzzling. I have been beyond night and day in improvement. Literally leaving nothing out, no drawers open, no glasses on counter.. Nothing. A blind man would notice. . So I told her that if she thinks I'm not holding my end of the bargain she needs to speak up. She says well your doing better.. And she remains cold.
> 
> This isn't even like perception thing, there was nothing out when she said that and I take heavy inventory of the rooms all day to make sure I'm not leaving crap out. I'm not doing better, I'm doing light years better.
> 
> What the ****? It's the same thing with dressing better and working out more, she is choosing not to notice. Meaning that my original consideration smells true. She's not in live with me , whether I improve or not. Yep I'm likely over reacting.but I'm dissapointed because I felt like this was the case and it still seems to be. I'm less mad that she feels as she does and more angry that she won't do the right thing and address her deepest feelings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BB... relish the positive change and simply realize she is still repulsed by you.. there is really nothing you can do apart from a few things. Her lashing out verbally was her telling you to back off and quit pressuring her.

The best thing you can do is to accept the situation, be comfortable with yourself and wait for your wife to come around.
Quit trying being so analytic.

She is not ready to jump your bones and it may be a long time regardless of what you do. Whatever you do do it for yourself...and not to impress your broken wife

She does not want a maid...what she wants is to feel in love with you so she can respond. The verbal out-lash was her sending a message that you are trying TOO HARD and to just chill and be patient and basically get comfortable with yourself so she can asses you again the not nuts one.

Trust me on this one point...your wife can and does read your every mood no matter how much you try to hide it. In order for her to WANT sex with you you need to actually have a very positive assured attitude one she can admire in the morning so she will be open to sex at night with you.

Don't let her actions affect you...non-sexually touch her throughout the day.

Remember she is remembering years of your worse behaviors...just because you changed doesn't mean she feels it yet or its her reality to see the new you as authentic.


----------



## BostonBruins32

She's drunk. Has to be. She just told me the baby shower made all the baby fever come back a little. 

My daughter does this too. Wants milk, then flips out when I get it because she now wants juice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Your situation is light years different than Boston's. You have tolerated an affair in plain sight for 4 years. I'm sure you will now claim it is finished. But your new plan is to give your wife 6 more months to resume sleeping with you. 

She isn't sorry about the affair. She's sorry she got caught. 

And your sole strategy seems to be to seek an ill defined perfection - as defined by your wife and appease her as much as needed.




UOTE=Trying2figureitout;7786490]BB... relish the positive change and simply realize she is still repulsed by you.. there is really nothing you can do. Her lashing out verbally was her telling you to back off and quit pressuring her.

The best thing you can do is to accept the situation, be comfortable with yourself and wait for your wife to come around.
Quit trying being so analytic.

She is not ready to jump your bones and it may be a long time regardless of what you do. Whatever you do do it for yourself...and not to impress your broken wife

She does not want a maid...what she wants is to feel in love with you so she can respond. The verbal out-lash was her sending a message that you are trying TOO HARD and to just chill and be patient and basically get comfortable with yourself so she can asses you again the not nuts one.

Trust me on this one point...your wife can and does read every mood no matter how much you try to hide it. In order for her to WANT sex with you you need to actually have a very positive assured attitude one she can admire in the morning so she will be open to sex at night with you.

Don't let her actions affect you.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Your situation is light years different than Boston's. You have tolerated an affair in plain sight for 4 years. I'm sure you will now claim it is finished. But your new plan is to give your wife 6 more months to resume sleeping with you.
> 
> She isn't sorry about the affair. She's sorry she got caught.
> 
> And your sole strategy seems to be to seek an ill defined perfection - as defined by your wife and appease her as much as needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UOTE=Trying2figureitout;7786490]BB... relish the positive change and simply realize she is still repulsed by you.. there is really nothing you can do. Her lashing out verbally was her telling you to back off and quit pressuring her.
> 
> The best thing you can do is to accept the situation, be comfortable with yourself and wait for your wife to come around.
> Quit trying being so analytic.
> 
> She is not ready to jump your bones and it may be a long time regardless of what you do. Whatever you do do it for yourself...and not to impress your broken wife
> 
> She does not want a maid...what she wants is to feel in love with you so she can respond. The verbal out-lash was her sending a message that you are trying TOO HARD and to just chill and be patient and basically get comfortable with yourself so she can asses you again the not nuts one.
> 
> Trust me on this one point...your wife can and does read every mood no matter how much you try to hide it. In order for her to WANT sex with you you need to actually have a very positive assured attitude one she can admire in the morning so she will be open to sex at night with you.
> 
> Don't let her actions affect you.


My situation is not that much different sure there was an OM I had to extract and six months is my window to re-evaluate not when I expect my wife to have sex.

The similarities is our wives are/were repulsed by us. That is a common theme in many of these low sex sexless marriages


----------



## MEM2020

B,
This is more blatant gas lighting. She hates on you about cleaning up when the truth is she is furious about your stance on a second child. 

She is willing to tolerate weekly sex to get that child. But once she has it, or maybe a third child, she won't 'need' to sleep with you anymore. 

At that point you will have to choose between:
1. Another 20 years of a loveless marriage followed by lifetime alimony or
2. Child support for 2-3 kids for 15-20 years

As for scenario (1), there is nothing legally to stop B2 from:
1. Having 2-3 kids with you
2. Staying until the length of marriage produces a lifetime alimony obligation 
3. Playing house (but not marrying) a younger, hotter man while you fund it

As for John's comments regarding M2 and B2, I think it best to point out a few differences.
- M2 and I averaged 5 times a week during our first decade
- Our 10th or 11th year (not sure exactly which it was) stands out in my mind as we had 3 children at that point (11,7,5) years old. I had gotten a vasectomy after our third. We were doing our near daily routine (actually it was almost always at night) which I was very happy with when suddenly M2 doubled down by initiating daily morning sessions. For 6-12 months we were mostly doing two a days. 

So - yes - I have some boundaries regarding this stuff. But M2 has often far exceeded what I would tolerate. Just like I have often far exceeded whatever stuff she wanted me to do. 






BostonBruins32 said:


> She's drunk. Has to be. She just told me the baby shower made all the baby fever come back a little.
> 
> My daughter does this too. Wants milk, then flips out when I get it because she now wants juice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
You missed my point. Boston has boundaries. You don't. 

You had concrete proof of an affair 2 years ago and yet you chose to tolerate her continuing contact with the OM. 

ZERO chance Boston would have allowed that. He would have demanded and enforced NC. And if she refused - as your W did - he would have felt crushed but he would have swiftly filed. Because he knows you can't fix a marriage while an affair continues. 





Trying2figureitout said:


> My situation is not that much different sure there was an OM I had to extract and six months is my window to re-evaluate not when I expect my wife to have sex.
> 
> The similarities is our wives are/were repulsed by us. That is a common theme in many of these low sex sexless marriages


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Vent.
> 
> I begin to wonder if things are improving. She comes home after a shower for her friend. I face been solely caring for b3 all day( since 7am.) wife comes home, I go for jog. I come home shower , and b3 is napping. I get out of shower and b2 is cleaning house . I wrap arms around and say " how can I help". She coldly bites back "just pick up after yourself. "
> 
> This is 100% puzzling. I have been beyond night and day in improvement. Literally leaving nothing out, no drawers open, no glasses on counter.. Nothing. A blind man would notice. . So I told her that if she thinks I'm not holding my end of the bargain she needs to speak up. She says well your doing better.. And she remains cold.
> 
> This isn't even like perception thing, there was nothing out when she said that and I take heavy inventory of the rooms all day to make sure I'm not leaving crap out. I'm not doing better, I'm doing light years better.
> 
> What the ****? It's the same thing with dressing better and working out more, she is choosing not to notice. Meaning that my original consideration smells true. She's not in live with me , whether I improve or not. Yep I'm likely over reacting.but I'm dissapointed because I felt like this was the case and it still seems to be. I'm less mad that she feels as she does and more angry that she won't do the right thing and address her deepest feelings.
> 
> Oh and ps her pajamas are on the floor and her mug from tea last night is still in he living room.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Allow a woman to translate...

She's upset about something that happened at the baby shower, something that -in her mind- is your fault. But in reality it is not you r fault. But she's still angry at you. So she invents something else to be angry about. Only she's really bad at doing that!

I hope you laughed in her face and walked away?


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> She's drunk. Has to be. She just told me the baby shower made all the baby fever come back a little.
> 
> My daughter does this too. Wants milk, then flips out when I get it because she now wants juice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh! That's what she's mad about. 

Oh well sweetheart. 

Once again, laugh it off and walk away.

On behalf of women, we are not all like this!!!!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Anon Pink said:


> Allow a woman to translate...
> 
> She's upset about something that happened at the baby shower, something that -in her mind- is your fault. But in reality it is not you r fault. But she's still angry at you. So she invents something else to be angry about. Only she's really bad at doing that!
> 
> I hope you laughed in her face and walked away?


And that thing she's mad about is that B isn't interested in having more kids with a woman who proves over and over again that once she gets what she wants she'll become a sexless shrew again.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> You missed my point. Boston has boundaries. You don't.
> 
> You had concrete proof of an affair 2 years ago and yet you chose to tolerate her continuing contact with the OM.
> 
> ZERO chance Boston would have allowed that. He would have demanded and enforced NC. And if she refused - as your W did - he would have felt crushed but he would have swiftly filed. Because he knows you can't fix a marriage while an affair continues.


True but him and I are at different stages and perhaps "allowing" the extra time on the affair makes the post affair fix even better. Anyone can divorce...fixing it is harder. With proof I am the same I did not tolerate it. Two years ago it was very strong circumstantial evidence not solid proof. Toleration was my choice based on the scenario at the time. Each man walks his own path.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> However, MEM's terminology speaks with great clarity on the boundaries he insists upon. It's worked for him and you simply can't argue with success.



I can't and don't argue with his success. 

But not two situations here are alike. Life would be an awful lot easier if they were.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> The similarities is our wives are/were repulsed by us. That is a common theme in many of these low sex sexless marriages



Nope nope and nope. No situations are the same, regardless of what many of the purveyors of DIY books say.

People's fundamental mental processes are the same but people do not all operate with the same set of parameters.


----------



## john117

Since the thread is about BB it is becoming clear that a lot more complex of an issue than anticipated. 

Instead of using the occasional successes and resent the rejections, perhaps a more lasting solution would be to seek MC or else... 

We can compare situations all we want - it's like comparing houses or cars. They're all over the place. Use the opening to seek long term MC, not short term improvements.


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> And that thing she's mad about is that B isn't interested in having more kids with a woman who proves over and over again that once she gets what she wants she'll become a sexless shrew again.


So we're clear, we haven't had a conversation that tells her I don't want more kids. The only "evidence" she would have of this is that I lightly ignore her chatter about more kids. Or I remain quiet. I have not said no more kids until xyz. She also is not seeking a kid today. She said all a long she would like to start trying this fall. So there is no panic button right now.

This is why I think this is less about kids and mire about her just being in a marriage with someone she can't truly love. As anon said, I think, it has to be scary to not truly feel attraction to your husband. Especially when on paper he is the right choice. And on paper doesn't always translate to real feelings( just like in sports it doesn't always translate to success)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

FYI. Another baby shower today for her. This time my family. 

Nobody on my side, except my mom, knows how ****ty my marriage is. There will be heavy "so when are you having more children " comments to her today. Looking forward to being yelled at later because I bought 1% milk instead of 2%.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

The no sex because no love and attraction part is bogus. She's not attracted to you yet still wants a child with you? That is magical thinking of Harry Potter magnitude.

She simply wants to maintain the status quo, enjoy the social benefits of being married etc without being vested in the marriage emotionally.

I believe the term is Cake Eater.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> The no sex because no love and attraction part is bogus. She's not attracted to you yet still wants a child with you? That is magical thinking of Harry Potter magnitude.
> 
> She simply wants to maintain the status quo, enjoy the social benefits of being married etc without being vested in the marriage emotionally.
> 
> I believe the term is Cake Eater.


Not bogus at all..if she was attracted they would be having sex like rabbits because obvious OP has no aversion to sex.

Sex is the COST of having another kid so she will put up with it for that.

Yes she wants the status quo and OP needs to get to a place he can have her understand status quo is no longer acceptable. Then she can either find her attraction or go her separate way.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I don't understand your post below. 

In some folks the desires for procreational vs. recreational sex are completely separate. I have literally heard this statement from the father of 6 six children:
Sure we had sex, six times, and then she was done with that part of things.....

Hyperbole, yes. But as an overall depiction of what happened, he was telling the truth. 




john117 said:


> The no sex because no love and attraction part is bogus. She's not attracted to you yet still wants a child with you? That is magical thinking of Harry Potter magnitude.
> 
> She simply wants to maintain the status quo, enjoy the social benefits of being married etc without being vested in the marriage emotionally.
> 
> I believe the term is Cake Eater.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> FYI. Another baby shower today for her. This time my family.
> 
> Nobody on my side, except my mom, knows how ****ty my marriage is. There will be heavy "so when are you having more children " comments to her today. Looking forward to being yelled at later because I bought 1% milk instead of 2%.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BB.. your marriage could be a lot worse. Quit the pity tour. So your wife won't have sex with you..that is HER ISSUE. Take care of yourself and work towards solving her issue with her.

You married her for better or worse... so this is worse... eventually you will get to better if you handle this the right way.

Be a man, hold your wife accountable and let anything she does that is negative roll off your back like water on a ducks back.

Challenge her...share your thoughts with her... open up to her. Appreciate and encourage her.

Relish this opportunity to FIX your marriage (you are way ahead of those who haven't started the correction and put up with lame sex)... you do not need to be AFRAID of challenging your wife on anything..you have the ultimate power now... she is the one behaving oddly. She is the one with totally mixed up emotions. She is the broken spouse. NOT YOU....but you have to watch your actions and not abuse the power you have.

Help her through it and be patient...she is not the enemy and she is looking for you to be a man.

AS for the more children comment ask them whats wrong with the ones we already have? and with today's medicine odds are they will survive no need for spares.
You don't have to answer that question. You don't have to air your "dirty laundry"

I would recommend listing the good in your marriage and then the bad and look at the lists.
Work the "bad" issues and relish the good...and she senses you displeasure of her not sexy. Whine is not sexy.

If she thought there was no chance...she would be gone.

She needs to re-discover you..like she fell in love with... to open herself up for good sex with you because she wants more of you.

Have you been ideal for her to do so?
I know what you feel and I'm telling you what can help. Sex is the last domino. Create an environment where the dynamics is fixed to allow her to WANT sex with you...and realize how lucky she is to have married you. That is what you need to do is to make her realize what a catch you are.


----------



## BostonBruins32

T2 I hear ya. 

For better or worse. Hmm. I wonder what the context is here. For worse; she gets sick, we can't have children, she loses limb, she loses job, etc

I don't know if for worse includes someone losing attraction to you. Or only wanting you for the house you can buy or the children your swimmers can deliver. I read for better or worse very differently. Bait and switch, marriage for money, infidelity , etc.. Are not really situations where you accept "for worse" . Current state is not sustainable. Not even if I did say for better or worse 4 years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> T2 I hear ya.
> 
> For better or worse. Hmm. I wonder what the context is here. For worse; she gets sick, we can't have children, she loses limb, she loses job, etc
> 
> I don't know if for worse includes someone losing attraction to you. Or only wanting you for the house you can buy or the children your swimmers can deliver. I read for better or worse very differently. Bait and switch, marriage for money, infidelity , etc.. Are not really situations where you accept "for worse" . Current state is not sustainable. Not even if I did say for better or worse 4 years ago.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You lose attraction for her too. Marriage has ups and downs and people change.

Would you live with you all these years if you were your wife based on the past, were you all in or coasting ?

Face it BB you have a decision...SPLIT and take your chance on another spouse or mate OR fix the one you have.

Make a decision and then do it.

If you stay first item is to become a GREAT FATHER.... women love GREAT FATHERS...get the kids on your side. Start isolating her. Eventually she will want to join the club and pay the fee.

Handle the discipline...and defend your wife demand the kids show her respect
Teach the kids about life.
Do stuff with them without her.
Be a coach
Have backyard camp outs.
Help with schoolwork. Track their grades, go to school meetings.
BE the parent (Ward Clever/Mike Brady) and not their friend

Do all of this in front of her. BE THE ADULT.

Frame it as being GOOD role models for your children, your sexual issue. Let your wife know that both of you are teaching your kids the wrong message about marriage.
You need to isolate and compartmentalize the sex issue make her want to resolve it.

OF COURSE its not sustainable..so fix it.
There is no quick fix ONLY the correct permanent one.

The order my wife listed her loves of me recently (she offered on her own to me):
1. GREAT FATHER TO OUR BOYS
2. What I do for her
3. A good man

That list is enough for most women to choose a lifelong spouse, hence why she dropped the OM like a rock when challenged with proof.

She is working on the rest...her issue not mine.

Remember your kids need you that is job #1

Your wife will come around eventually. She would be NUTS to leave you and will do what it takes to keep you in her life. Don't underestimate the mixed up female mind...they are very different from us.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> I don't understand your post below.
> 
> 
> 
> In some folks the desires for procreational vs. recreational sex are completely separate. I have literally heard this statement from the father of 6 six children:
> 
> Sure we had sex, six times, and then she was done with that part of things.....
> 
> 
> 
> Hyperbole, yes. But as an overall depiction of what happened, he was telling the truth.



I think the Cake Eater part of the program was quite self evident.

In 55 pages of this thread every alternative was discussed except the obvious. B2 wants the security and rewards of being a mom and the social status of being a wife of a good earner without the effort required to properly sustain a marriage on all aspects. This is no doe eyed newlywed or new mom ready to cry us talk show tears and see the errors of her ways. DIY books and 180s don't fix this one.

Let's say BB agrees to a second child . Predict great sex for a while, a baby, and that's all she wrote for the next 7 years. She knows what she's doing.

Her current "b!tch because 2% vs 1% milk" persona is easy to read. The why is the hard part and there's enough background to stitch together some theories, I'm not a therapist so I will not give you my prediction but all I can say is the main focus is to get both of them into MC and IC and not squabble about sex. 

The main goal of dragging her into IC and MC is to demonstrate her commitment to Marriage and not to the Cake.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> Sex is the COST of having another kid so she will put up with it for that.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes she wants the status quo and OP needs to get to a place he can have her understand status quo is no longer acceptable. Then she can either find her attraction or go her separate way.



QFT

It's all about EMV.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
In general, I give you very high marks when it comes to perceiving reality 'as it is'. You are precise on the facts, and cautious on inferences and assumptions. 

However, your statement below is simply not accurate. She has mentioned having another child maybe 3-5 times in the past couple of months. During that time:
- You were consistently conveying that the marriage was not sustainable without improvement AND
- You never once confirmed that you were still on board with having a child

Your W is keenly aware that your views on a second child this fall are between: hesitant and hell no

Despite your repeated silence on the matter, she has made a choice not to to directly ask where you stand. 

Her decision NOT to ask you to explicitly discuss adding a second child is VERY worrisome. This is a very high priority to B2. And yet, she is unwilling to be direct. 

We cannot know for certain WHY, but it's worth mentioning a few possibilities:
1. She is afraid he will say he's changed his mind and she's not ok with that. 
2. She's afraid B will link his marital unhappiness to having changed his mind. She is VERY afraid of that. Because that puts direct responsibility on her for expressly committing to making it a better marriage for B. She knows that B is a smart guy. Which means that if she expressly commits, gets B4, and steadily reverts, he might feel betrayed and she might end up single.  

She doesn't want to be single. She wants to be:
- An affluent SAHM with a nice house and nice cars
- The parent of a few smart, attractive kids 
- The owner of a polite, well behaved (all about her ALL the time), handsome and funny husband who other women are jealous of 



QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7794466]So we're clear, we haven't had a conversation that tells her I don't want more kids. The only "evidence" she would have of this is that I lightly ignore her chatter about more kids. Or I remain quiet. I have not said no more kids until xyz. She also is not seeking a kid today. She said all a long she would like to start trying this fall. So there is no panic button right now.

This is why I think this is less about kids and mire about her just being in a marriage with someone she can't truly love. As anon said, I think, it has to be scary to not truly feel attraction to your husband. Especially when on paper he is the right choice. And on paper doesn't always translate to real feelings( just like in sports it doesn't always translate to success)
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> In general, I give you very high marks when it comes to perceiving reality 'as it is'. You are precise on the facts, and cautious on inferences and assumptions.
> 
> However, your statement below is simply not accurate. She has mentioned having another child maybe 3-5 times in the past couple of months. During that time:
> - You were consistently conveying that the marriage was not sustainable without improvement AND
> - You never once confirmed that you were still on board with having a child
> 
> Your W is keenly aware that your views on a second child this fall are between: hesitant and hell no
> 
> Despite your repeated silence on the matter, she has made a choice not to to directly ask where you stand.
> 
> Her decision NOT to ask you to explicitly discuss adding a second child is VERY worrisome. This is a very high priority to B2. And yet, she is unwilling to be direct.
> 
> We cannot know for certain WHY, but it's worth mentioning a few possibilities:
> 1. She is afraid he will say he's changed his mind and she's not ok with that.
> 2. She's afraid B will link his marital unhappiness to having changed his mind. She is VERY afraid of that. Because that puts direct responsibility on her for expressly committing to making it a better marriage for B. She knows that B is a smart guy. Which means that if she expressly commits, gets B4, and steadily reverts, he might feel betrayed and she might end up single.
> 
> She doesn't want to be single. She wants to be:
> - An affluent SAHM with a nice house and nice cars
> - The parent of a few smart, attractive kids
> - The owner of a polite, well behaved (all about her ALL the time), handsome and funny husband who other women are jealous of
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=BostonBruins32;7794466]So we're clear, we haven't had a conversation that tells her I don't want more kids. The only "evidence" she would have of this is that I lightly ignore her chatter about more kids. Or I remain quiet. I have not said no more kids until xyz. She also is not seeking a kid today. She said all a long she would like to start trying this fall. So there is no panic button right now.
> 
> This is why I think this is less about kids and mire about her just being in a marriage with someone she can't truly love. As anon said, I think, it has to be scary to not truly feel attraction to your husband. Especially when on paper he is the right choice. And on paper doesn't always translate to real feelings( just like in sports it doesn't always translate to success)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


[/QUOTE]

so shes smarter than I think?

another thing shes does, which may support you is while looking at crap in stores, our daughter may see a baby and say "mom do you have a baby in your belly" . B2 will say no, and then say (loud enough on purpose or not) "would you like to be a sister?" or "would you like mommy to have a baby?". Of course B3 says yes. I very much ignore this dialogue. So maybe you ar right. I just typically think my wife is clueless, but its more likely givea****less. 

Whats interesting (and i know i'm not THE man, not the best etc), but if I am attractive, witty, smart, solid income, in shape, comical, attentive parent, attentive husband.. why cant she love me for who i am? these traits are who i am, so why is it only the golden ticket she can love? 

essentially, i wonder if shed have this same issue with B replacement?


----------



## BostonBruins32

I should also point out that this is very much what I feared. I remember talking to friends and even my father when I was 18-20something..that I dont always trust women's intentions. I dont have any history on this. Maybe it was magazines, books, or who konws, but I always had a problem with gold diggers. 

My wife would say shes not a gold digger, we drive Hondas, so calm down. We live in a middle income house, so slow down. etc.. but it still seems like shes in it for the same reason as a gold digger. And I swore left and right I'd never marry that type ..ugh.


----------



## john117

Boston,

She may not be a gold digger going for the medal, just someone with an idealized lifestyle of mom, 2.2 kids, dog, et. al. but without the desire to work on her side of things.

Dealing with 2 year olds is easy. With 32 year olds, not so much.

With her current status she has it all and enjoys it, and is even willing to put out minimal SLA to keep it going. Why change a good thing?


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Boston,
> 
> She may not be a gold digger going for the medal, just someone with an idealized lifestyle of mom, 2.2 kids, dog, et. al. but without the desire to work on her side of things.
> 
> Dealing with 2 year olds is easy. With 32 year olds, not so much.
> 
> With her current status she has it all and enjoys it, and is even willing to put out minimal SLA to keep it going. Why change a good thing?


good thing stops at B3. Good thing ends if B2 doesnt change or try. B upgrade becomes more challenging (field slimmer when entering market at 30something with a child).

I was afraid of separation or divorce. I am not afraid of it now. I don't prefer it or like it, but I'm not afraid. She's not afraid of it right now because its not on the table. yet.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> good thing stops at B3. Good thing ends if B2 doesnt change or try. B upgrade becomes more challenging (field slimmer when entering market at 30something with a child).
> 
> I was afraid of separation or divorce. I am not afraid of it now. I don't prefer it or like it, but I'm not afraid. She's not afraid of it right now because its not on the table. yet.


Before you put it on the table (which you may very well have to)... work on the rest of the marriage so she gets a sense of what is on the line. She needs to see what you have to offer with consistent behaviors and an even keeled demeanor.

And don't mention _divorce_ use the word "*Split*" and calmly discuss it without emotion.

Good your are getting to the point you can thrive without her, that she needs to sense.

In the meantime settle into a sexless baseline good but not great. Take care of your role.


----------



## john117

I concur. Zero SLA is a far better message than fractional SLA...


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> I concur. Zero SLA is a far better message than fractional SLA...


Sla ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## treyvion

BostonBruins32 said:


> Sla ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


SLA is a support agreement which defines the minimum conditions which must be met.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
You are confusing lust and love. And you are also treating LD and sexual aversion as the same. Sexual aversion is a totally different issue and is rarely solvable. 

I say with equal parts acceptance, disappointment and amazement that M2 feels very little raw 'lust' for me. 

Menopause, vulvodynia, and the inevitable impact that *sameness* has on passion. 

And yet, twice a week she connects with me. And mostly she's the one initiating. She mainly does it because she likes making me feel good. And I totally understand that theme because it's equally true in reverse. 

As for your wife's recent comments to you about what she loves:
- great Dad (I'm sure that's true and you should be proud of that)
- the stuff you do for her (I'm sure that's true also)
- *good* man (this is about you not ditching her after learning that for the OM she's been shaving her V, wearing sexy panties, and having an intensely physical affair for 4 years all while staring you down and telling you to go jerk off in the bathroom)

Your advice is all predicated on your wife magically losing her sexual aversion to you. 




Trying2figureitout said:


> You lose attraction for her too. Marriage has ups and downs and people change.
> 
> Would you live with you all these years if you were your wife based on the past, were you all in or coasting ?
> 
> Face it BB you have a decision...SPLIT and take your chance on another spouse or mate OR fix the one you have.
> 
> Make a decision and then do it.
> 
> If you stay first item is to become a GREAT FATHER.... women love GREAT FATHERS...get the kids on your side. Start isolating her. Eventually she will want to join the club and pay the fee.
> 
> Handle the discipline...and defend your wife demand the kids show her respect
> Teach the kids about life.
> Do stuff with them without her.
> Be a coach
> Have backyard camp outs.
> Help with schoolwork. Track their grades, go to school meetings.
> BE the parent (Ward Clever/Mike Brady) and not their friend
> 
> Do all of this in front of her. BE THE ADULT.
> 
> Frame it as being GOOD role models for your children, your sexual issue. Let your wife know that both of you are teaching your kids the wrong message about marriage.
> You need to isolate and compartmentalize the sex issue make her want to resolve it.
> 
> OF COURSE its not sustainable..so fix it.
> There is no quick fix ONLY the correct permanent one.
> 
> The order my wife listed her loves of me recently (she offered on her own to me):
> 1. GREAT FATHER TO OUR BOYS
> 2. What I do for her
> 3. A good man
> 
> That list is enough for most women to choose a lifelong spouse, hence why she dropped the OM like a rock when challenged with proof.
> 
> She is working on the rest...her issue not mine.
> 
> Remember your kids need you that is job #1
> 
> Your wife will come around eventually. She would be NUTS to leave you and will do what it takes to keep you in her life. Don't underestimate the mixed up female mind...they are very different from us.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
This is why you are celibate. 

I have an A game. And recognize when someone else is bringing their A game. Boston has been bringing his A game for a while now. 

You confuse a consistent *A game* with perfection. 

Observe the difference:
Your W is still blaming her sexual starvation of you on some fairly honest comments you made many, many years ago. You believe she has the right to demand perfection and so accept her position as valid. 

I was in the middle of a light tussle with M2 when she seized on a mildly edgy comment that I made. 

M2: I cannot believe you just said that to me. 
M1: what?
M2: I'm serious, and I don't think I am EVER going to get over that (followed by a hostile stare)
M1: So ummm - repeating the initial comment - that's the bar for never getting over something? Really? Cause well, I think we need to take a little stroll down memory lane darling, as I've got dozens of examples of comments you've made that were WAY more - over the top - than that. You wanna do this standing up, or should we go sit down somewhere and maybe get comfortable. 
M2: (smiling wickedly) sorry, I got distracted for a moment, what were we talking about? 

It turns out 'never', lasted about 60 seconds. 



QUOTE=Trying2figureitout;7797250]Before you put it on the table (which you may very well have to)... work on the rest of the marriage so she gets a sense of what is on the line. She needs to see what you have to offer with consistent behaviors and an even keeled demeanor.

And don't mention _divorce_ use the word "*Split*" and calmly discuss it without emotion.

Good your are getting to the point you can thrive without her, that she needs to sense.

In the meantime settle into a sexless baseline good but not great. Take care of your role.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Anon Pink

Pay attention kids. This is what boundaries look like.




MEM11363 said:


> I was in the middle of a light tussle with M2 when she seized on a mildly edgy comment that I made.
> 
> M2: I cannot believe you just said that to me.
> M1: what?
> M2: I'm serious, and I don't think I am EVER going to get over that (followed by a hostile stare)
> M1: So ummm - repeating the initial comment - that's the bar for never getting over something? Really? Cause well, I think we need to take a little stroll down memory lane darling, as I've got dozens of examples of comments you've made that were WAY more - over the top - than that. You wanna do this standing up, or should we go sit down somewhere and maybe get comfortable.
> M2: (smiling wickedly) sorry, I got distracted for a moment, what were we talking about?
> 
> It turns out 'never', lasted about 60 seconds.


Your enforcement may not take a mere second seconds especially in the beginning, but with consistency it will definable be less than a month, then less than two weeks, then less than a few days.


----------



## john117

MEM, 

You had it right about sexual aversion except for the "for you" part. The majority of non-PA or non-EA LD's are sexually averse, period. Not for their partner, not for Harrison Ford, not for Justin Bieber.

Examples of trivial squabbles magically resolving themselves are common with all couples. We aren't dealing with minor squabbles here or even major ones but rather with someone whose lifestyle is being "threatened" by sex due to heavy duty emotional skeletons in the closet like CSA or upbringing or messed up role models.

What you say is perfectly valid for normal people who can work things out, but the hallmark of many personality disorder people is that they are not normal. 

They don't call them disorders for no reason.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> Pay attention kids. This is what boundaries look like.
> 
> Your enforcement may not take a mere second seconds especially in the beginning, but with consistency it will definable be less than a month, then less than two weeks, then less than a few days.



If the LD partner has defined SLA's the above approach is not likely to succeed regardless of boundaries.

You don't suppose boundaries are reciprocal, do you?


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> If the LD partner has defined SLA's the above approach is not likely to succeed regardless of boundaries.
> 
> You don't suppose boundaries are reciprocal, do you?


I don't understand what you mean John.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> MEM,
> 
> You had it right about sexual aversion except for the "for you" part. The majority of non-PA or non-EA LD's are sexually averse, period. Not for their partner, not for Harrison Ford, not for Justin Bieber.
> 
> Examples of trivial squabbles magically resolving themselves are common with all couples. We aren't dealing with minor squabbles here or even major ones but rather with someone whose lifestyle is being "threatened" by sex due to heavy duty emotional skeletons in the closet like CSA or upbringing or messed up role models.
> 
> What you say is perfectly valid for normal people who can work things out, but the hallmark of many personality disorder people is that they are not normal.
> 
> They don't call them disorders for no reason.


And how do you propose a disordered spouse is to be dealt with other than defined boundaries?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> And how do you propose a disordered spouse is to be dealt with other than defined boundaries?


We're all for boundaries. I think this is just tempering expectations of change. Remember I'm setting boundaries and bettering myself, yet b2 is doing nothing different. This is not a team effort. I also think you gave to give a **** in order for boundaries to feel impactful. I think the punch line is that boundaries should be set. We agree. The effectiveness , well we may differ on predictions here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> We're all for boundaries. I think this is just tempering expectations of change. Remember I'm setting boundaries and bettering myself, yet b2 is doing nothing different. This is not a team effort. I also think you gave to give a **** in order for boundaries to feel impactful. I think the punch line is that boundaries should be set. We agree. The effectiveness , well we may differ on predictions here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe it's easier for a woman to enforce boundaries of acceptable behavior? IDK, I really don't know.

If I were in a relationship with someone who showed such disregard for my feelings, my desires and my needs (once I learned that it was okay to have those needs and okay to want my partner to meet them) there is no going back. 

"Disregard me at your peril."

I'm not talking about throwing the D word out either. 

Your wife makes veiled complaints about another baby. Crazy town! Pure crazy town! How can she be so deluded about adding to the family unit when a very important member of the family unit is feeling pretty marginalized and overlooked? If it were me, I would immediately stop the grumbling by reminding her the relationship is on shaky ground so talk of additions is the last thing I want to hear about right now! 

She wants to piss and moan about invisible messes, instead of coming out with what's really on her mind... If it were me I'd call her on it! "Quit complaining and come out with what's really on your mind!"

But maybe doing that is not manly...doesn't seem unmanly to me though.

My husband has called me out on the subterfuge before and while it tends to piss me off, it's the right thing to do and it gets us beyond whatever it is I'm dealing with.

It's the game playing that just doesn't work for me. If someone is treating you like crap you speak up, right? You don't change the subject like it's polite company because that just prolongs the conflict. You don't walk away ignoring it, unless you're damn sure it actually will blow away.

That's what I mean by boundaries.

Telling your wife she's in crazy town thinking about another baby may not get you laid soon, but having your wife grow a certain respect for how you insist on being treated WILL get you laid.


----------



## john117

Funny that you mentioned Crazy Town, a very specific BPD term 

Add boundaries and voila!

Sex will occur but the sex SLA will likely be same old same old...


----------



## Anon Pink

We'll b2 has certainly shown a remarkable level of self absorption. Perhaps not BPD but I think we can mostly agree there is some NOS involved.


----------



## john117

That's the spirit. It's like hearing that wheezing sound in your lungs and thinking it's a cold or maybe the flu instead of a full blown pneumonia.

It took me a bit to understand what was going on with J2. Bipolar? Nah. Depressed? Nah. I pulled out my ole' DSM-IV and reread the section on PD's. A bit of thought abd putting 2 and 2 together and all of a sudden it's oh sh!t time. 

As DesignDaughter was in counseling at the time and I attended about a third of her sessions with the lovely and single Dr. Jamie we worked out a plan to do some 3-way FC and see if my theory of BPD held water. So J2 joined us for a few sessions where Dr. Jamie got to spend a lot more time with J2 than with me or our girl. Just diagnostic stuff mind you not really counseling.... Collecting J2's side of the story we said. When she was told about BPD she reacted the same way as if told she has an ingrown toenail, no big deal. What's for dinner?

Why do I mention all this? Because normal people act a LOT more than M2 rather than J2. It is a shock to find out but it's not like I did not know it already. The first step is to rule out PD's then worry about sex. 

.


----------



## Anon Pink

I like the theory, in theory 

But the BBs spent time in MC so that therapist might be a likely person to rule out BPD. Because BOSTON, if BPD can't be ruled out, do not pass go. Begin doing whatever you need to to get custody of your daughter and get the hell out! I know this is unpopular, but women with BPD have no business parenting.


----------



## Blonde

nonsense and "male-think" that no sex = no love

I love my children and my friends very profoundly but would not have sex with them

Just popping out of "lurk" to clarify that...

BB, you and your wife do not communicate. You guess and impose your imagination (such as no sex = no love) and she's not attracted to you and blah blah BLAH. I still think it's projection on YOUR part. YOU don't love HER... Just sayin'

You have to communicate more deeply and more clearly. Take your wife to this and learn how to communicate: Marriage Help Program For Couples


----------



## Anon Pink

I'm telling God Blonde! You're supposed to be off TAM for lent!


----------



## Blonde

Anon Pink said:


> I'm telling God Blonde! You're supposed to be off TAM for lent!


Busted! Yeah, fail, at giving up TAM entirely! 

I did make an exception for OLD subscriptions. The cheating is when I get hooked into newer threads... :sleeping: Have been temperate though.

H has been lurking some and I really hate that. Afraid he is going to get in his "grass is greener" mode again (like when he was a porn user) with these people like Mem having sex twice a day and that guy on the sex forum who has all kinds of crazy sex and all he does is complain and have a chip on his shoulder about one act he wants... Motivates the "quit TAM" urge.

I'm doing The Way to Love by Anthony De Mello for a Lenten devotional. HT: PinkSalmon13 on TAM who frequently recommends De Mello.

BB maybe you would like it?


----------



## john117

Blonde, there's not a lot of communication leeway when one person unilaterally declares or establishes a 1x a month SLA. 

Since the horse has been thoroughly beaten I reiterate a complete withdrawal from all intimate activities, full 180 with extra indifference and go for all or nothing. If B2 asks simply explain to her that if this is how she values the emotional component of your relation then there's no point having one. To quote John (not the guy who puts numbers after his name ) try watering your grass once a month and see how well that works.

It's easy to think that for most people 1x a month can be made into 2x a month then 1x a week then every other day. For some it can. Or the hardcore LD's not quite. Keep in mind the person on the other side of the Astroglide has a vested interest to not let that happen, ergo, stalemate.


----------



## Blonde

Didn't read this whole page but BB was having sex 2-3X week on the last page (PS I read in 40 posts/page mode). He got rejected once and thinks she doesn't love him and isn't attracted to him because

sex EQUALS love

to him...

I really do assume projection in his claims that his wife doesn't love him



BostonBruins32 said:


> Well I'm not proclaiming any serious improvement until there is consistency.
> 
> Still conflicted though. My love for her is dented, meaning it's still there, just a little broken. As mentioned in this thread, I still harbor resentment that I know I need to clear. I find myself wanting to get away from the house after our daughter is in bed etc.. Like I want to be away from my wife more. I even take the longer way home (side roads) after work sometimes to delay my arrival home. Someone pointed out earlier on here, I think I just don't like the way she shows or doesn't show love. And despite some seemingly obvious improvements, I have a different level of interest in our function as a marriage right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


^^ he doesn't love his wife and won't love her no matter how much sex he gets.


----------



## MEM2020

Anon,
I agree with this. 

And I actually believe that forcing whatever this is to the surface is paramount. 

As for the physical aspect of their marriage, I'm getting pessimistic. Mainly because her latest blowup over B4 is sort of par for the course. 

She has zero interest in having a direct, adult discussion with Boston about his needs and her needs. And instead is responding to his resistance to a second child with coldness and hostility. 

Boston is so direct that he hasn't quite grasped that B2 has a very simple strategy for getting what she wants. 

1. She directly says it. I want to try for a second child in the fall. I want a bigger house (This part is fine).
2. She repeats her desire periodically (also fine)
3. She periodically compares Boston unfavorably to other people who have more money to let him know that he isn't quite meeting her needs in terms of income (this is ugly and manipulative)
4. She hears the silence when she speaks of a second child, and decides to enlist the aid of B3. So B2 asks B3 in front of B1: do you want a little brother/sister? (This is ugly and manipulative - B3 doesn't get a vote in this decision)
5. She comes home and hits B1 with hostility and then admits that it's about B4. But still chooses not to ask him what HE wants. 

And this - this is the core of it. She doesn't ASK Boston how he feels about another child, (despite his very marked silences on the topic) because she doesn't CARE what he wants. 




Anon Pink said:


> Maybe it's easier for a woman to enforce boundaries of acceptable behavior? IDK, I really don't know.
> 
> If I were in a relationship with someone who showed such disregard for my feelings, my desires and my needs (once I learned that it was okay to have those needs and okay to want my partner to meet them) there is no going back.
> 
> "Disregard me at your peril."
> 
> I'm not talking about throwing the D word out either.
> 
> Your wife makes veiled complaints about another baby. Crazy town! Pure crazy town! How can she be so deluded about adding to the family unit when a very important member of the family unit is feeling pretty marginalized and overlooked? If it were me, I would immediately stop the grumbling by reminding her the relationship is on shaky ground so talk of additions is the last thing I want to hear about right now!
> 
> She wants to piss and moan about invisible messes, instead of coming out with what's really on her mind... If it were me I'd call her on it! "Quit complaining and come out with what's really on your mind!"
> 
> But maybe doing that is not manly...doesn't seem unmanly to me though.
> 
> My husband has called me out on the subterfuge before and while it tends to piss me off, it's the right thing to do and it gets us beyond whatever it is I'm dealing with.
> 
> It's the game playing that just doesn't work for me. If someone is treating you like crap you speak up, right? You don't change the subject like it's polite company because that just prolongs the conflict. You don't walk away ignoring it, unless you're damn sure it actually will blow away.
> 
> That's what I mean by boundaries.
> 
> Telling your wife she's in crazy town thinking about another baby may not get you laid soon, but having your wife grow a certain respect for how you insist on being treated WILL get you laid.


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
Finally we agree. 

Sex - does not - equal love. 

In ALL those counseling sessions B2 never ONCE said that Boston didn't love her. So for now, stop with your mantra about that. 

And instead answer this. What does it mean when B2 consistently demonstrates: 
- an extreme lack (once every 5-6 weeks) of willingness to have a normal frequency of sex +
- a lack of commitment to address her issues, shown by her bailing on counseling when the focus turned to her +
- indifference to how a 90 percent rejection rate is impacting your higher desire partner +
- a laser like focus on her own priorities +
- a seeming indifference to how hurtful some of her comments to Boston are





Blonde said:


> Didn't read this whole page but BB was having sex 2-3X week on the last page (PS I read in 40 posts/page mode). He got rejected once and thinks she doesn't love him and isn't attracted to him because
> 
> sex EQUALS love
> 
> to him...
> 
> I really do assume projection in his claims that his wife doesn't love him
> 
> 
> 
> ^^ he doesn't love his wife and won't love her no matter how much sex he gets.


----------



## john117

Considering the word indifference was used liberally, any thoughts on NPD?


----------



## Anon Pink

Yikes, almost as bad as BPD. Post up those links John, maybe Boston can identify his wife or not. Frankly either one kinda precludes her from having a healthy relationship with Boston.


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
It is Nonsense and extremist gender biased thinking that a healthy male in his thirties who actually desires sex EVERY SINGLE DAY, should be dismissed for having major issues with once a month. 

I love my extended family too AND they would still love me and want me in their lives if I cheated on M2. See how that works? When B2 cheated on you, his extended family might have been irked, but they weren't going to cut him out of their lives - you on the other hand - were thinking about it. Those relationships are different. 

I am starting to feel sorry for B2, since you seem to think that marital sex is pretty much optional. 





Blonde said:


> nonsense and "male-think" that no sex = no love
> 
> I love my children and my friends very profoundly but would not have sex with them
> 
> Just popping out of "lurk" to clarify that...
> 
> BB, you and your wife do not communicate. You guess and impose your imagination (such as no sex = no love) and she's not attracted to you and blah blah BLAH. I still think it's projection on YOUR part. YOU don't love HER... Just sayin'
> 
> You have to communicate more deeply and more clearly. Take your wife to this and learn how to communicate: Marriage Help Program For Couples


----------



## BostonBruins32

thought you all might appreciate this.

I talked to my mom yesterday while out running errands alone. I tried to get a feel for whether or not my wife was peppererd with 2nd baby comments. Mom said not that she saw, as she is somewhat observant and B2 would likely be sitting with my mom at the shower. 

Talked to my mom about the marriage etc. My mom's take is that B2's mom has always struck her as extremely hot and cold and mean to B2's dad. Lots of outbursts and seemingly always frustrated with him. I dont quite see it at this extreme, but my mom is only around them on holidays or more rare occcassions. So one would think B2's mom would be on better behavior then. My mom floated out BPD for B2's mom and then said that she doesnt think its too far off to consider B2 having a form of it.

My mom said that she always remembered early on that I would comment about B2 being hot and cold with me. ( i dont remember it as well like that). She said that it seems like B2's mom wouldnt be happy no matter what B2's dad does. Then she said this could be why B2 has a hard time noticing or appreciating positive changes I make. She didnt encourage me to leave but did say that B2 and myself need to be talking to a MC or IC.

Did I hear an echo in here? you guys floated out BPD. My mom floated it out. We all agreed that its possible nothing I do will make my wife appreciate or want me more, and my mom is saying the same thing. My mom's opinion isnt clinically approved, but I thought you guys might find this interesting. PS my mom and my wife have good relationship (calls, lunch together, etc etc), so its not like my mom doesnt like her and is just **** talking.


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> Blonde,
> It is Nonsense and extremist gender biased thinking that a healthy male in his thirties who actually desires sex EVERY SINGLE DAY, should be dismissed for having major issues with once a month.


 There you go again, putting words in my mouth 

Recently, they are having sex 2-3 times a WEEK!

BB's M is going to end because BB dislikes and disrespects his W. Period. The sex isn't fixing it. 

Read Bagdon's thread. Never once a disrespectful, unloving, rejecting word toward his W. When people pushed him toward D, he defended his W and fought for his M. I don't see that here. I see BB having sex 2-3 times in the last week with his wife, having nothing nice to say about her in the face of people on here cutting her to shreds, and preening over female attention at work.

Shrug, It's BB's life.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> There you go again, putting words in my mouth
> 
> Recently, they are having sex 2-3 times a WEEK!
> 
> BB's M is going to end because BB dislikes and disrespects his W. Period. The sex isn't fixing it.
> 
> Read Bagdon's thread. Never once a disrespectful, unloving, rejecting word toward his W. When people pushed him toward D, he defended his W and fought for his M. I don't see that here. I see BB having sex 2-3 times in the last week with his wife, having nothing nice to say about her in the face of people on here cutting her to shreds, and preening over female attention at work.
> 
> Shrug, It's BB's life.


 2-3 times a week? 3 sessions in 2 weeks. Now over a week and one rejection and tons of attitude this weekend for zero reason. 

Try again blonde. I faced heavy rejection for 4 years. A nice 2 week stretch does not wash years of undoing. Despite her coldness to me all weekend , I shrugged it off and kept being an active house and parent participant. I have admitted on here things outside bedroom are improving, bit weekends like this quickly remind me we have a long way to go. Forgive me for being so defensive but we have very different views on the ways of conducting a marriage. 

She quit marriage counseling. She avoids communication. She called me a sexual deviant when I said sec every month or two was not ok. I need her to meet me somewhere in the middle. So with all this said, I'm more bear than bull on this market until I see something change for more than 15 minutes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

And to the I love her thing.

The way I feel about her today is very different from how I did 7 years ago. The love is different. The 100+ pages details why. If I didn't love or respect her, why would I stay? Or completely devote to mc? She doesn't want to have sex with me, doesn't want to communicate on serious issues, bites my head off for buying nonorganic pears, doesn't provide me financial security.. So if I didn't love her or want to fix this, why would I work at it or stay?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
You owe Boston an apology. I guess you have a chance to demonstrate whether or not your goal is to:
- Be right or
- Be helpful






Blonde said:


> There you go again, putting words in my mouth
> 
> Recently, they are having sex 2-3 times a WEEK!
> 
> BB's M is going to end because BB dislikes and disrespects his W. Period. The sex isn't fixing it.
> 
> Read Bagdon's thread. Never once a disrespectful, unloving, rejecting word toward his W. When people pushed him toward D, he defended his W and fought for his M. I don't see that here. I see BB having sex 2-3 times in the last week with his wife, having nothing nice to say about her in the face of people on here cutting her to shreds, and preening over female attention at work.
> 
> Shrug, It's BB's life.


----------



## BostonBruins32

No apology needed. I value all opinions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> So if I didn't love her or want to fix this, why would I work at it or stay?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


for the kid, I suppose

Analyze the two weeks where it was working and do what works. If she had O's, then she is NOT "LD", at least not once every 2 months LD.

Communicate.

Personally it turns my stomach that you are out preening with OW when the sex was (temporarily?) improved at home. And no Mem, I am not sorry for feeling that way. How about we get B2 onto this thread to see how she feels about it, eh??? 

I think you should have a VERY serious conversation with her about your doubts about your M very soon and once again I suggest Marriage Help Program For Couples When she sees the link I think she will be shocked how far down the road to entertaining D you are, she really has no idea how miserable you are with her. You have to tell her that you are entertaining D. Its very unfair for you to be going on down this road with all your D cheerleaders here with no communication. VERY unfair!!!


----------



## Blonde

Mem, IIRC your wife CHEATED? Therefore using the dynamics of your M here.... :crazy:

IMO BB is the one at high risk for cheating in this M. The grass looks ever so green out there....


----------



## MEM2020

B,
The rubber has now met the road. B2 has been in denial for a while now. That's over and she now consciously realizes you are no longer on board with B4. 

Note: She didn't choose constructive engagement, she gave you an emotional ice bath for the weekend. This is more master/slave than collaborative partnering. 

I sort of recognize this because it's classic M2. And ummm yea - our MC told me that she sees a LOT of BPD in M2. 

FWIW: I do love M2. I'm not a prisoner. She's got a LOT of strengths. It's also true that she often sees the world as a zero sum game. So this means that for 'her' to win, 'someone else' has to lose. And far worse, *for someone else to win, she has to lose.* 

She's smart, so intellectually she grasps the fact that marriage isn't a zero sum game. But in conflict, her default behavior reflects a zero sum belief system. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> 2-3 times a week? 3 sessions in 2 weeks. Now over a week and one rejection and tons of attitude this weekend for zero reason.
> 
> Try again blonde. I faced heavy rejection for 4 years. A nice 2 week stretch does not wash years of undoing. Despite her coldness to me all weekend , I shrugged it off and kept being an active house and parent participant. I have admitted on here things outside bedroom are improving, bit weekends like this quickly remind me we have a long way to go. Forgive me for being so defensive but we have very different views on the ways of conducting a marriage.
> 
> She quit marriage counseling. She avoids communication. She called me a sexual deviant when I said sec every month or two was not ok. I need her to meet me somewhere in the middle. So with all this said, I'm more bear than bull on this market until I see something change for more than 15 minutes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

The Policy of Radical Honesty


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
Why are you applying terminology used specifically to describe marital infidelity, to describe Boston's behavior?

You refer to OW? And you do it in a context that implies he's being unfaithful. 

You are putting words in HIS mouth. Just because women at his workplace are giving him more attention, doesn't mean he is flirting with them. 

No offense, I think you are triggering. Boston isn't your H. 




Blonde said:


> for the kid, I suppose
> 
> Analyze the two weeks where it was working and do what works. If she had O's, then she is NOT "LD", at least not once every 2 months LD.
> 
> Communicate.
> 
> Personally it turns my stomach that you are out preening with OW when the sex was (temporarily?) improved at home. And no Mem, I am not sorry for feeling that way. How about we get B2 onto this thread to see how she feels about it, eh???
> 
> I think you should have a VERY serious conversation with her about your doubts about your M very soon and once again I suggest Marriage Help Program For Couples When she sees the link I think she will be shocked how far down the road to entertaining D you are, she really has no idea how miserable you are with her. You have to tell her that you are entertaining D. Its very unfair for you to be going on down this road with all your D cheerleaders here with no communication. VERY unfair!!!


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
That's a painful set of memories. She had a pretty intense love for our most senior employee. 

She didn't sleep with him, but that's only because he didn't ask. If he had asked, she would have. 

So - for two of our 25 years together - she loved someone else. 

Why do you believe that that is impacting my advice?





Blonde said:


> Mem, IIRC your wife CHEATED? Therefore using the dynamics of your M here.... :crazy:
> 
> IMO BB is the one at high risk for cheating in this M. The grass looks ever so green out there....


----------



## usmarriedguy

I can see why Boston would be frustrated with his wife and a couple of weeks of more frequent sex is not going to make up for years of feeling abandoned. 

On the other hand some people are just moody and one weekend of her being in a bad mood does not seem all that unusual. 

I suspect that Boston is trying to get her to compromise on a frequency that is pushing the edge of what is easy for her. That will tend to make her feel pressured which in turn my cause some defensive actions on her part. 

I doubt that there is lack of love on her part. She may lack interest in sex at the frequency Boston wants, she may lack concern that this difference in sexual requirements may cause problems, etc..

Maybe she is not a romantic and does not believe that is practical in a tong term relationship with kids.


----------



## Anon Pink

Blonde you define your marital boundaries very differently from me and probably from most non Christians. To you BB was cheating when he flirted with woman at work. To me, just having a laugh without an intention to go further than a laugh! I don't have a problem with flirting, nor does my husband, nor does he with me flirting here or there. I like to laugh!

You boundaries work for you because your husband needs a chain link fence to understand the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behavior with other women. Bit of a skirt chaser, anything willing ... So yes, a casual flirting remark is a prelude to stepping out for him. Not so with other people.

But I agree about communicating and I agree about enforcing the expectation of interacting.

I find it very interesting that Boston's mother noticed some BPD traits in B2 yet never said anything to discourage the match. I would be like a prison road crew tossing out road blocks and doing my best to hold up traffic!


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
This truly is a great suggestion.

Boston,
This type thing is an amplifier. It will highlight the deep flaws in your marriage in a painful manner. 

Done properly, it will either rapidly improve your marriage, or end it. 

BUT: There's a BIG catch here. Your W is a habitual liar. And you've enabled her. And that's ok, we all do it. Mild, well intentioned deception is the emotional cartilage in intimacy. It often minimizes or prevents the intense pain caused by bone on bone conflict. 

So you would need to start with some very difficult prep type discussions. The first would have to be something like this:
- Today is amnesty day, you can come clean without getting beaten up about past dishonesty
- Going forward, I will call you out for consistently large gaps between what you say and what you do
- There will be no increase in my marital commitment level until we reach a mutually beneficial, radically honest, and long term sustainable dynamic 





Blonde said:


> The Policy of Radical Honesty


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> I think you should have a VERY serious conversation with her about your doubts about your M very soon and once again I suggest Marriage Help Program For Couples When she sees the link I think she will be shocked how far down the road to entertaining D you are, she really has no idea how miserable you are with her. You have to tell her that you are entertaining D. Its very unfair for you to be going on down this road with all your D cheerleaders here with no communication. VERY unfair!!!


I agree with this approach even if I am not so sure about Blonde's thoughts on the wife understanding. I think she knows things are rocky but is deluding herself. Would not be the first time someone has convinced themselves that if they just double down, everything will go right back to the way it was.

I think BB32 has aided these delusions by not being more upfront. She hints at another kid and he remains silent or changes the topic. Yes, she does not ask outright, but he does not tell her outright either, so she can continue to ignore the evidence and pretend things are fine. It comes across as more than a bit passive aggressive. 

I think the better idea at this point is to be blunt and direct. She brings up kids and BB32 says not based on where our marriage is right now. And even if thigns change, it will be a while before he trusts enough that it is real before he considers another child again. She tries to convinces others to help her convince BB32, and he just says no, he does not want another kid right now. Don't let her delude herself into thinking this is just a pothole. She needs to know that there is a bridge out ahead.


----------



## MEM2020

US,
I seriously doubt that the weekend was a random bad mood. She pretty much admitted it was baby shower mania. Which in their case results in emotional aggression caused by their conflict over a second child. 

I see a LOT of red flags that make me think she doesn't love him.

What is it that B2 is doing that causes you to believe she does love him? 


QUOTE=usmarriedguy;7813818]I can see why Boston would be frustrated with his wife and a couple of weeks of more frequent sex is not going to make up for years of feeling abandoned. 

On the other hand some people are just moody and one weekend of her being in a bad mood does not seem all that unusual. 

I suspect that Boston is trying to get her to compromise on a frequency that is pushing the edge of what is easy for her. That will tend to make her feel pressured which in turn my cause some defensive actions on her part. 

I doubt that there is lack of love on her part. She may lack interest in sex at the frequency Boston wants, she may lack concern that this difference in sexual requirements may cause problems, etc..

Maybe she is not a romantic and does not believe that is practical in a tong term relationship with kids.[/QUOTE]


----------



## BostonBruins32

What is it that B2 is doing that causes you to believe she does love him? I SO BADLY WANT TO ASK HER THIS myself . Like it sounds mean, but what does she bring to the table on this relationship


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> What is it that B2 is doing that causes you to believe she does love him? I SO BADLY WANT TO ASK HER THIS myself . Like it sounds mean, but what does she bring to the table on this relationship


So ask her.

Ask her to outline her daily behaviors that communicate her love for you. I'd be very interested in her reply.


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> What is it that B2 is doing that causes you to believe she does love him? I SO BADLY WANT TO ASK HER THIS myself . Like it sounds mean, but what does she bring to the table on this relationship


I wouldn't be at all surprised if she answered this with some form of "I provide stability in the house -- cooking, cleaning, taking care of b3 -- so that you can leave in the morning, concentrate on work without worrying about what happens at home, and return to a comfortable picturesque family. On weekends, we do the things that happy families do. I play the role of wife and mother to make that possible." 

And I don't think b2 is unusual, and it's not just a woman thing. Peer groups, peer pressure, expectations -- they combine to make things tricky. BB -- if your wife were to describe a satisfying life, would orgasms even be mentioned? Probably not. Even before marriage, would that have been part of what she pictured? Probably not?

Given the similarities to my situation, I'm not ready to say it's bait and switch, or loss of love. It's letting the chore chart get in the way. It's let the calendar (on that dammed smartphone!) dictate NEXT weekend -- the Joneses are having a party. We have to go! Why? So we can look the loving couple in front of the neighborhood version of the popular HS kids. 

So, to put it back on topic -- BB you have to determine if her picture of a happy life includes many things they you include in the picture of a happy life. 

Think of it this way -- if you showed up two hours late to the Joneses party because you ending up having wild sex while showering and getting dressed, would she be apologetic to the Joneses, and frustrated that you showed up late? Or would she show up happy, apologize to Ms. Jones, tell her that something came up, and then note "by the way, thank you for hosting this elegant party. It was getting ready for it that made something come up." Wink, wink. 

There's nothing wrong with the latter -- I think most hostesses would understand, and feel good that they provided an excuse. But some (many? our?) wives would rather show up on time, help keep the ****tails tables free of leftover plates, offer to help clean up at the end, and be seen hanging out with the cool kids. Which is the right picture, for you and B2?

EDIT:
I see Anon Pink commented while I typed. But I think I am asking a similar question, using something other than the everyday life as an example. But hopefully my scenario isn't a rare as a summer vacation -- it's an ongoing part of life. 

Heck, imagine there's a couple in your neighborhood that are know for always arriving 90 minutes late for a party because they rent a hotel room for 60 minutes after the babysitter arrives? Who would scorn them?


----------



## Anon Pink

My husband was the same way only our issue was not sex but his ability to emotionally connect with me. He was flabbergasted when his reply to the above question resulted in me saying Not Good Enough!

He thought going to work every day, coming home every day, not beating me, not having addictions, and paying for everything was enough. Seriously, that is ALL he did.

It wasn't until I defined exactly precisely how I needed him to communicate love to me that he was able to do it. I felt stupid having to explain to a grown middle aged man that being affectionate throughout the day such as holding hands, giving a hug, kissing my neck (on and in the list went) was the way to show love.

But I guess some people need a cheat sheet.


----------



## Tron

BB,

Is there any chance she was just PMS'ing this weekend?


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
I actually do think that the fair and honorable thing to do at this point is to tell B2 directly. Clearly and concisely. 

1. We have some major compatibility issues 
2. I won't consider another child unless we resolve them
3. I'm still committed to the marriage 
4. And I also accept that you are very upset about B4. That's what happens when a spouse casually thwarts our biological drives
5. If my unwillingness to have a second child is a show stopper for you, I accept that and will work hard to keep our parting amicable 

The last bit, while hardest is the most important. It lets her know that a brute force approach (impregnate me or leave me) is a non starter. 






Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree with this approach even if I am not so sure about Blonde's thoughts on the wife understanding. I think she knows things are rocky but is deluding herself. Would not be the first time someone has convinced themselves that if they just double down, everything will go right back to the way it was.
> 
> I think BB32 has aided these delusions by not being more upfront. She hints at another kid and he remains silent or changes the topic. Yes, she does not ask outright, but he does not tell her outright either, so she can continue to ignore the evidence and pretend things are fine. It comes across as more than a bit passive aggressive.
> 
> I think the better idea at this point is to be blunt and direct. She brings up kids and BB32 says not based on where our marriage is right now. And even if thigns change, it will be a while before he trusts enough that it is real before he considers another child again. She tries to convinces others to help her convince BB32, and he just says no, he does not want another kid right now. Don't let her delude herself into thinking this is just a pothole. She needs to know that there is a bridge out ahead.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
At the bottom of the trough - over a year ago, M2 and I had this discussion. 

And at the outset I defined two separate buckets. 
1. The numerous things she did (that she would do the same if I got hit by a truck)
2. Things she did JUST for ME (JfM)

And then I did my list for her in those same two buckets. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> What is it that B2 is doing that causes you to believe she does love him? I SO BADLY WANT TO ASK HER THIS myself . Like it sounds mean, but what does she bring to the table on this relationship


----------



## MEM2020

AP,
This is a great story - you were very clear and he listened and engaged. 




Anon Pink said:


> My husband was the same way only our issue was not sex but his ability to emotionally connect with me. He was flabbergasted when his reply to the above question resulted in me saying Not Good Enough!
> 
> He thought going to work every day, coming home every day, not beating me, not having addictions, and paying for everything was enough. Seriously, that is ALL he did.
> 
> It wasn't until I defined exactly precisely how I needed him to communicate love to me that he was able to do it. I felt stupid having to explain to a grown middle aged man that being affectionate throughout the day such as holding hands, giving a hug, kissing my neck (on and in the list went) was the way to show love.
> 
> But I guess some people need a cheat sheet.


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM11363 said:


> AP,
> This is a great story - you were very clear and he listened and engaged.


:rofl:

In the end he felt engaging was cheaper and easier than divorce.

Or

He really does love me but didn't know how to show it.


----------



## Tron

Anon Pink said:


> My husband was the same way only our issue was not sex but his ability to emotionally connect with me. He was flabbergasted when his reply to the above question resulted in me saying Not Good Enough!


Funny how these things replay themselves. I had essentially the same convo with T2 in MC roughly a year ago. Taking care of the home, kids, etc. Not Good Enough. 

T2 was visibly distressed. I saw fear. 

To T2's credit, she is working on it. We have good weeks and bad weeks. Her FOO and our history makes open vulnerability a near constant struggle.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Tron said:


> Her FOO and our history makes open vulnerability a near constant struggle.


FOO is a good point to consider. My wife's family was very traditional and very "cool" while she was growing up. No outward affection of any sort. Her parents never held hands or kissed in public. No I love yous. Love was doing your job and providing for your spouse, be it work for a paycheck or work at home.

Seeing my family was a shock to her. It took her a while to open up, and it was definitely in stages, with sex being the last.


----------



## usmarriedguy

MEM11363 said:


> What is it that B2 is doing that causes you to believe she does love him?


I don't think she would want to have another child with him if she did not but I guess it depends on the definition of love. 

I think love can exist regardless of sex (I love my dad but I do not want to have sex with him) you seem to define it as only the type of love that includes sex. 

Sure Boston and most of us want a more physical relationship than our spouses do. That does not mean that we love them more than they love us, it means we like sex more than they do.


----------



## Anon Pink

Tron said:


> Funny how these things replay themselves. I had essentially the same convo with T2 in MC roughly a year ago. Taking care of the home, kids, etc. Not Good Enough.
> 
> T2 was visibly distressed. I saw fear.
> 
> To T2's credit, she is working on it. We have good weeks and bad weeks. Her FOO and our history makes open vulnerability a near constant struggle.


I have the same distinct discomfort with open vulnerability. Being on TAM, forcing myself to own up to my deepest darkest fears helped. Then having someone like *JLD* who cracks the whip at me and makes me be transparent to my husband took me much further to creating the kind of relationship I want with my husband.

Like you said, it's a process and sometimes it's smooth while other times not so much.


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> Sure Boston and most of us want a more physical relationship than our spouses do. That does not mean that we love them more than they love us, it means we like sex more than they do.



Exactly. Love is a discrete variable, either true or false. The demonstration or manifestation of love is an analog variable that can take many values and can be quantified. 

I think many people confuse the two...


----------



## MEM2020

US,
I love my sisters, children, some very close friends of our family. Truly love them. And all those relationships are platonic. 

As for marital love I believe that differences in desire are more the norm than the exception. And that compassion, kindness and commitment bridge those differences in both directions. 

In general I would say that where B1 is concerned, B2 seems lacking in: 
- Compassion
- Kindness 
- Commitment 

So I'll try to refrain from saying she doesn't love him. And will instead say that it's hard to imagine wanting to remain life partners with someone who doesn't express those traits towards you.










usmarriedguy said:


> I don't think she would want to have another child with him if she did not but I guess it depends on the definition of love.
> 
> I think love can exist regardless of sex (I love my dad but I do not want to have sex with him) you seem to define it as only the type of love that includes sex.
> 
> Sure Boston and most of us want a more physical relationship than our spouses do. That does not mean that we love them more than they love us, it means we like sex more than they do.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I tend to agree with this. 

But I could leave someone who I loved and who loved me if their manifestation of love was sufficiently different from what I want. 




john117 said:


> Exactly. Love is a discrete variable, either true or false. The demonstration or manifestation of love is an analog variable that can take many values and can be quantified.
> 
> I think many people confuse the two...


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> I tend to agree with this.
> 
> But I could leave someone who I loved and who loved me if their manifestation of love was sufficiently different from what I want.


Exactly! Life is too short to flounder around waiting for the right time to feel loved and wanted.


----------



## john117

Correct, love by itself is not measurable - despite what my lab tech crew thinks  - but its manifestations are quantifiable. So once they drop below a certain threshold...

This is a typical LD way to think - as long as he gets his minimal ration of x/time interval he is good. Not quite.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I am not really sure that we know what B2 is willing to do at this point (commitment) since Boston has not discussed the big D (as far as I know)

Certainly she weighs her right to deny sex greater than Boston's right to have sex. We can assume that she is not interested in sex but I do not think that demonstrates a lack of compassion or kindness anymore than Boston wanting to have sex means that he is uncompassionate or unkind about her needs. 

They simply have mismatched expectations about sex at the moment. 

She seems to me to be making an effort and like Scarlett's and CW's husbands she is not 100% reliable and probably never will be unless her libido changes.


----------



## MEM2020

US,
Don't you think it's bigger than that? 

- Where is her commitment to the marriage? 
- Why was it ok for her to quit counseling? 
- Why has her communication about their sex life been mostly limited to:
a. Telling B1 that wanting more than once every 4-8 weeks made him a deviant and
b. Using a therapy session to say she just doesn't much like sex
- Why is it ok for her to use a combination of carrot (sex) and stick (a weekend of cold hostility) to try to manipulate B1 into having a second child?

She isn't being honest about their issues. She's avoiding making any clear cut commitments. And yet retains a laser like focus on what she expects from B1.

She doesn't understand mutuality. 

And Boston needs to learn to detach and unplug when she drops an ice storm on him. 




usmarriedguy said:


> I am not really sure that we know what B2 is willing to do at this point (commitment) since Boston has not discussed the big D (as far as I know)
> 
> Certainly she weighs her right to deny sex greater than Boston's right to have sex. We can assume that she is not interested in sex but I do not think that demonstrates a lack of compassion or kindness anymore than Boston wanting to have sex means that he is uncompassionate or unkind about her needs.
> 
> They simply have mismatched expectations about sex at the moment.
> 
> She seems to me to be making an effort and like Scarlett's and CW's husbands she is not 100% reliable and probably never will be unless her libido changes.


----------



## usmarriedguy

_- Where is her commitment to the marriage? _

We have no information that says she is not committed


_- Why was it ok for her to quit counseling? _

It is OK if Boston does not require it


_- Why has her communication about their sex life been mostly limited to:
a. Telling B1 that wanting more than once every 4-8 weeks made him a deviant and
b. Using a therapy session to say she just doesn't much like sex_

I don't understand. What was she supposed to tell him? I don't like sex that much seems to be a plausible reason for not wanting more sex.


_- Why is it ok for her to use a combination of carrot (sex) and stick (a weekend of cold hostility) to try to manipulate B1 into having a second child?_

What was the carrot and stick? They had sex and then last weekend she was in a bad mood? Maybe I missed something. 


_She isn't being honest about their issues. She's avoiding making any clear cut commitments. And yet retains a laser like focus on what she expects from B1._

I do not know that she has been asked to make any clear cut commitments (last I checked Boston did not want to set any)


_She doesn't understand mutuality. _ 

I think you make a lot of assumptions about someone you have never even talked too. 


_And Boston needs to learn to detach and unplug when she drops an ice storm on him._

I do agree that Boston tends to be overly emotional and too dependent on her actions.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Blonde said:


> nonsense and "male-think" that no sex = no love
> 
> I love my children and my friends very profoundly but would not have sex with them
> 
> Just popping out of "lurk" to clarify that...
> 
> BB, you and your wife do not communicate. You guess and impose your imagination (such as no sex = no love) and she's not attracted to you and blah blah BLAH. I still think it's projection on YOUR part. YOU don't love HER... Just sayin'
> 
> You have to communicate more deeply and more clearly. Take your wife to this and learn how to communicate: Marriage Help Program For Couples



No sex = different love from that of with sex.

They are both love but one is more loving.

I think OPs wifes bad mood indicates a broader issue, shes not ready for regular good sex yet and still finds the OP repulsive. The sex is probably doing more damage in terms of resentment for being forced into it. I would not advise continuing under those circumstances..not worth it.... face it its either good or terrible...avoid terrible.

Which is probably what my wife chose to do over the years.


----------



## Miss Independent

Trying2figureitout said:


> No sex = different love from that of with sex.
> 
> They are both love but one is more loving.
> 
> I think OPs wifes bad mood indicates a broader issue, shes not ready for regular good sex yet and still finds the OP repulsive. The sex is probably doing more damage in terms of resentment for being forced into it. I would not advise continuing under those circumstances..not worth it.... face it its either good or terrible...avoid terrible.
> 
> Which is probably what my wife chose to do over the years.



How do you know his wife find him repulsive? How is she forced into it? Why are you comparing his wife and your wife? Your wife cheated while B's wife didn't.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

spinsterdurga said:


> How do you know his wife find him repulsive? How is she forced into it? Why are you comparing his wife and your wife? Your wife cheated while B's wife didn't.


Quite simple based on his wife's attitude and do we know she has never cheated..ever?

If she wasn't repulsed by him he would not be here addressing her odd behavior or attitude after sex with him.

They are all the same...repulsed by the thought of sex with their husbands..but would open up themselves to another mate.... typical long term marriage with sex issues.

Deal with the repulsion and you have success.


----------



## Miss Independent

Trying2figureitout said:


> Quite simple based on his wife's attitude and do we know she has never cheated..ever?
> 
> If she wasn't repulsed by him he would not be here addressing her odd behavior or attitude after sex with him.
> 
> They are all the same...repulsed by the thought of sex with their husbands..but would open up themselves to another mate.... typical long term marriage with sex issues.
> 
> Deal with the repulsion and you have success.



Did you deal with the repulsion?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

spinsterdurga said:


> Did you deal with the repulsion?


In ways yes, in others I'm sure she holds onto some of it. So its a work in progress.


----------



## Miss Independent

Trying2figureitout said:


> In ways yes, in others I'm sure she holds onto some of it. So its a work in progress.



Sorry but you didn't. I've been a lurker for years before signing up today. Your situation is way beyond resentment. Your wife doesn't love you and had an affair in front of you yet you still hold on to the hope that you can turn things around. B can turn things around, but I'm sorry you can't. 
Sorry B for hijacking your thread


----------



## Trying2figureitout

spinsterdurga said:


> Sorry but you didn't. I've been a lurker for years before signing up today. Your situation is way beyond resentment. Your wife doesn't love you and had an affair in front of you yet you still hold on to the hope that you can turn things around. B can turn things around, but I'm sorry you can't.
> Sorry B for hijacking your thread


I disagree, glad you posted and offered your advice.


----------



## john117

Repulsed by sex in general, not anyone in particular.


----------



## MEM2020

US,
I agree she was being honest when she said she didn't like sex very much. But there is a world of difference between honest and constructive. 

Constructive, kind of goes like this. 
Sex is a combination of:
- Raw chemistry 
- Technique 
- Non sexual context 

- Technique is mostly easy to change/adapt/improve - the initiation / ignition sequence is very important if you're dealing with an LD partner 
- Non sexual context is mainly about desire suppressors 
- Raw chemistry has to be sufficient to trigger responsive desire. If it isn't, than you are really dealing with sexual aversion, not low desire. And in that case, sex will always be extremely rare unless the SA (sexually averse) partner is under duress 

Because B2 ran away from counseling, it's unclear what the issue(s) are. But if she really is SA, instead of LD, than B1 married a highly incompatible partner. 

But the thing is she is screwing his head up by NOT talking to him about what's really going on in his head. 


QUOTE=usmarriedguy;7823434]_- Where is her commitment to the marriage? _

We have no information that says she is not committed


_- Why was it ok for her to quit counseling? _

It is OK if Boston does not require it


_- Why has her communication about their sex life been mostly limited to:
a. Telling B1 that wanting more than once every 4-8 weeks made him a deviant and
b. Using a therapy session to say she just doesn't much like sex_

I don't understand. What was she supposed to tell him? I don't like sex that much seems to be a plausible reason for not wanting more sex.


_- Why is it ok for her to use a combination of carrot (sex) and stick (a weekend of cold hostility) to try to manipulate B1 into having a second child?_

What was the carrot and stick? They had sex and then last weekend she was in a bad mood? Maybe I missed something. 


_She isn't being honest about their issues. She's avoiding making any clear cut commitments. And yet retains a laser like focus on what she expects from B1._

I do not know that she has been asked to make any clear cut commitments (last I checked Boston did not want to set any)


_She doesn't understand mutuality. _ 

I think you make a lot of assumptions about someone you have never even talked too. 


_And Boston needs to learn to detach and unplug when she drops an ice storm on him._

I do agree that Boston tends to be overly emotional and too dependent on her actions.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

John,
It's a mixed bag. I have read posts by women who developed a sexual aversion to their husbands, got divorced and then had crazy hot sex with subsequent partners/husbands. 

In other cases the women got divorced and never slept with anyone else. 

But often the women themselves know which of those two it is before the marriage ends. 




john117 said:


> Repulsed by sex in general, not anyone in particular.


----------



## john117

True, but not as mixed as you may think. If I had an intern I could ask her or him to plow thru the forum and find cases that fit either option. I'd bet you my Nikon the never again crowd dwarfs the not with him crowd.

T2's case is curiously puzzling on this regard.


----------



## BostonBruins32

wow, lots of activity while i was away at dinner/parenting.

aversion to sex or aversion to sex with me. I think we hashed this out a while back. And even after hashing this out in earlier pages, I still dont think we have a clear answer. Her disgust with the idea that she may have masturbated (see few pages back on discharge) makes me wonder about her sexual drive. It was utterly disgusting to her (unless her acting? oscar award?) that I would even CONSIDER she masturbated. I dont think she masturbates, but the jury is out on what that conversation tells me about her sexuality. Something? nothing? who knows.

hunch says shes not into sex with me for xyz reasons.

I'm basically with MEM on most of these conversation pieces, though his advice is very aggressive and challenging. This advice also hurts sometimes, as it makes me really feel lik ethis thing is not getting better, but its probably closer to reality.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> wow, lots of activity while i was away at dinner/parenting.
> 
> aversion to sex or aversion to sex with me. I think we hashed this out a while back. And even after hashing this out in earlier pages, I still dont think we have a clear answer. Her disgust with the idea that she may have masturbated (see few pages back on discharge) makes me wonder about her sexual drive. It was utterly disgusting to her (unless her acting? oscar award?) that I would even CONSIDER she masturbated. I dont think she masturbates, but the jury is out on what that conversation tells me about her sexuality. Something? nothing? who knows.
> 
> hunch says shes not into sex with me for xyz reasons.
> 
> I'm basically with MEM on most of these conversation pieces, though his advice is very aggressive and challenging. This advice also hurts sometimes, as it makes me really feel lik ethis thing is not getting better, but its probably closer to reality.



BB the assumption is shes not into you in that way for her own reasons, she may not even know why. In my case it was basically resentment built up over the years based on her CONSISTENT comments. The secondary reason was she didn't want to do it wasn't enjoyable so why do it. Third was I mentioned sex was "bad" with her. Oh and the EA didn't help at all.

You can trace them all back to resentment and her made up justification and skirting the issue.

So in every case you need to figure out two things:

Is it a deal breaker from her end...no
Is it fixable... yes..once resentment is dealt with we move forward.

Same with you and your wife... get her to admit what it is, isolate it and then fix it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> BB the assumption is shes not into you in that way for her own reasons, she may not even know why. In my case it was basically resentment built up over the years based on her CONSISTENT comments. The secondary reason was she didn't want to do it wasn't enjoyable so why do it. Third was I mentioned sex was "bad" with her.
> 
> You can trace them all back to resentment and her made up justification.
> 
> So in every case you need to figure out two things:
> 
> Is it a deal breaker from her end...no
> Is it fixable... yes..once resentment is dealt with we move forward.
> 
> Same with you and your wife... get her to admit what it is, isolate it and then fix it.


the basis of our problem is communication. I cant get blood from a stone. She either doesnt know how to talk to me or doesnt care enough to talk to me. I cant get a real answer/opinion from her. The marriage counselor couldnt either. She quit. Just like our talks, she bails. 

I cant do anything or improve anything or help her if she wont admit or tell me whats going on. And my track record proves I'm willing listen to and activate improvement expressed by her or counselor. She doesnt care or doesnt know how to communicate. How do I work with that?


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> Like it sounds mean, but what does she bring to the table on this relationship


Yep, mean, and unloving.

She brings NOTHING to the relationship. She is a piece of trash for you to put by the curbside because she does not put out enough to suit you. Only when she does, she is STILL a piece of trash to put by the curbside 

And you really can say you "love" her with a straight face? What is your definition of "love"? 

She is the mother of your child. She has made you a better man and father by your own testimony. You used to be harsh and impatient toward your preschooler. 

Hope you can treat the kid right when you have partial custody and replacement women (and children)

If she knew how you talked about her here, she'd file. I would.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> Yep, mean, and unloving.
> 
> She brings NOTHING to the relationship. She is a piece of trash for you to put by the curbside because she does not put out enough to suit you. Only when she does, she is STILL a piece of trash to put by the curbside
> 
> And you really can say you "love" her with a straight face? What is your definition of "love"?
> 
> She is the mother of your child. She has made you a better man and father by your own testimony. You used to be harsh and impatient toward your preschooler.
> 
> Hope you can treat the kid right when you have partial custody and replacement women (and children)
> 
> If she knew how you talked about her here, she'd file. I would.


haha you are too cute. thanks for the insight!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Blonde said:


> Yep, mean, and unloving.
> 
> She brings NOTHING to the relationship. She is a piece of trash for you to put by the curbside because she does not put out enough to suit you. Only when she does, she is STILL a piece of trash to put by the curbside
> 
> And you really can say you "love" her with a straight face? What is your definition of "love"?
> 
> She is the mother of your child. She has made you a better man and father by your own testimony. You used to be harsh and impatient toward your preschooler.
> 
> Hope you can treat the kid right when you have partial custody and replacement women (and children)
> 
> If she knew how you talked about her here, she'd file. I would.


Unfair Blonde... you are not in his shoes


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> the basis of our problem is communication. I cant get blood from a stone. She either doesnt know how to talk to me or doesnt care enough to talk to me. I cant get a real answer/opinion from her. The marriage counselor couldnt either. She quit. Just like our talks, she bails.
> 
> I cant do anything or improve anything or help her if she wont admit or tell me whats going on. And my track record proves I'm willing listen to and activate improvement expressed by her or counselor. She doesnt care or doesnt know how to communicate. How do I work with that?


Corner her like I did my wife (in the kitchen) and got her to fully admit that we had an issue, it needed resolved and in a timely fashion. Don't let her wiggle out. Of course that meant nothing when my wife was in la la land..it does now...and is a cornerstone of why my marriage will heal. Until you get her to admit the issue its an unattainable scenario.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
What if it's not a communication issue at all. 

What if she really doesn't like sex, never has and kind of figured that she could gradually get you to acclimate to a sexless marriage?

And this wasn't a malicious thing at all. I happen to know someone who finds the idea of sex - very unappealing - and yet this same person strongly desires children. 

B2 isn't a man - isn't flooded with testosterone - so she has no idea what it's like to be with someone who fills you with heat. And - like M2 - she's low empathy by nature so she is unusually comfortable causing you distress. 

I don't blame her for avoiding this topic like the plague. If I had to guess, most of what she has said is true. Visually she finds you attractive. And she genuinely likes affection. And B she genuinely likes you. She likes the same stuff about you that your friends and family do including your sense of humor. 

The final triangulation on this is fairly simple:
- Her comments on masturbation were sincere, she finds her own V somewhat disgusting as a sexual organ  
- She fled MC soon as it turned to her sexual issues
- She recently entered into a covert contract with you (shhh - we won't talk about it - but I will let you do the nasty with me - weekly - for a few months - as long as you give me B4. Once I have B4, I will gradually re-acclimate you to our 10/year routine.)

So - now it's time to make some tough choices:
1. Do what Blonde suggested. Be radically honest with B2. Tell her what you believe to be true and then shut the fvck up and read her body language while she responds. 
2. Do what I suggest. Well fvck me - I agree with Blonde. Her suggestion is fair and decent. She has given you better advice than I have. Much as I find her delivery style - tiresome - she has good values. 

BTW: This doesn't mean you have to be a martyr. What it means is you have to do something like this:

Dear B2,
I love you. I love your organizational skills. Your intense - no holds barred commitment to B3. Your financial discipline, your excellent taste in clothing. Oddly enough I also love your strength of will, surely it is greater than my own. 

Despite my love, which is strong, we might part ways. Because you have kept secrets from me for years, and that isn't ok. Not even remotely ok. So in the spirit of radical honesty here is where we stand: I will not even consider another child with you until we reach a high level of mutual understanding. 

That said, before you even entertain opening up to me, I want to put a few things on the table.
- You have fairly high expectations of your spouse - yes that's me
- You have expressed no interest in understanding or meeting my expectations - and that is not even close to acceptable to me

Let's be honest. We have a HUGE disconnect in the bedroom. If it's not really fixable, or if fixing it is simply too much effort for you, let's part amicably and co-parent B3 as best we can. 

I will not spend the rest of my life being rejected by my life partner. And don't want you to have to spend the next 50 years thinking up various head, stomach, nasal, anal (diarrhea) and other ailments to keep your husband at bay. 

I'm here. No hurry. 

B1








BostonBruins32 said:


> the basis of our problem is communication. I cant get blood from a stone. She either doesnt know how to talk to me or doesnt care enough to talk to me. I cant get a real answer/opinion from her. The marriage counselor couldnt either. She quit. Just like our talks, she bails.
> 
> I cant do anything or improve anything or help her if she wont admit or tell me whats going on. And my track record proves I'm willing listen to and activate improvement expressed by her or counselor. She doesnt care or doesnt know how to communicate. How do I work with that?


----------



## Anon Pink

Blonde, honey, ...what's going on? Something is triggering you. 

Boston isn't ready to kick her to the curb and no one is advocating for that. Mrs. BB IS manipulative, and she IS avoiding accountability. They had one good week. ONE since November. ONE week in which she seemed to be aware of his needs, since November. This does not make a pattern and it's way too soon think in those terms. Aside from that, she wants more kids so it would be foolish for Boston not to question the sincerity of her single week of paying attention to her husband...right?

How soon after your H's last affair were you able to feel he was sincere? Granted, Boston isn't dealing with a betrayal of that magnitude, but a wife behaving as she has been is a kind of betrayal. 

How can he trust which wife is the real wife?


----------



## marriedfor8years

Are you meeting all you her needs? Not just sexually but also emotionally. From a woman's prospective we just can't jump in the bed as easily as a man can. We need to see and feel some romance, some compliments, to meet our desires emotionally and then sexually we can give our all. A man can get aroused very easily not women. You have to work at it. I can tell you one thing grab her and go down on her and I bet she wouldn't refuse! I mean man handle her in a good passionate way and it will get her going! Nothing like a good hair pulling some rough kissing or being almost slammed up against a wall and then just gone down and don't stop until she pushes you away because she can't handle anymore and then I guarantee she will want sex! Again, this is from a womans point of view. We want to get off just as much as you guys do! The thing is you have to be willing to work at us first. Women take more time to get going and get primed up but once you do you will have a ton of fun! Good luck!


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> What if it's not a communication issue at all.
> 
> What if she really doesn't like sex, never has and kind of figured that she could gradually get you to acclimate to a sexless marriage?
> 
> And this wasn't a malicious thing at all. I happen to know someone who finds the idea of sex - very unappealing - and yet this same person strongly desires children.
> 
> B2 isn't a man - isn't flooded with testosterone - so she has no idea what it's like to be with someone who fills you with heat. And - like M2 - she's low empathy by nature so she is unusually comfortable causing you distress.
> 
> I don't blame her for avoiding this topic like the plague. If I had to guess, most of what she has said is true. Visually she finds you attractive. And she genuinely likes affection. And B she genuinely likes you. She likes the same stuff about you that your friends and family do including your sense of humor.
> 
> The final triangulation on this is fairly simple:
> - Her comments on masturbation were sincere, she finds her own V somewhat disgusting as a sexual organ
> - She fled MC soon as it turned to her sexual issues
> - She recently entered into a covert contract with you (shhh - we won't talk about it - but I will let you do the nasty with me - weekly - for a few months - as long as you give me B4. Once I have B4, I will gradually re-acclimate you to our 10/year routine.)
> 
> So - now it's time to make some tough choices:
> 1. Do what Blonde suggested. Be radically honest with B2. Tell her what you believe to be true and then shut the fvck up and read her body language while she responds.
> 2. Do what I suggest. Well fvck me - I agree with Blonde. Her suggestion is fair and decent. She has given you better advice than I have. Much as I find her delivery style - tiresome - she has good values.
> 
> BTW: This doesn't mean you have to be a martyr. What it means is you have to do something like this:
> 
> Dear B2,
> I love you. I love your organizational skills. Your intense - no holds barred commitment to B3. Your financial discipline, your excellent taste in clothing. Oddly enough I also love your strength of will, surely it is greater than my own.
> 
> Despite my love, which is strong, we might part ways. Because you have kept secrets from me for years, and that isn't ok. Not even remotely ok. So in the spirit of radical honesty here is where we stand: I will not even consider another child with you until we reach a high level of mutual understanding.
> 
> That said, before you even entertain opening up to me, I want to put a few things on the table.
> - You have fairly high expectations of your spouse - yes that's me
> - You have expressed no interest in understanding or meeting my expectations - and that is not even close to acceptable to me
> 
> Let's be honest. We have a HUGE disconnect in the bedroom. If it's not really fixable, or if fixing it is simply too much effort for you, let's part amicably and co-parent B3 as best we can.
> 
> I will not spend the rest of my life being rejected by my life partner. And don't want you to have to spend the next 50 years thinking up various head, stomach, nasal, anal (diarrhea) and other ailments to keep your husband at bay.
> 
> I'm here. No hurry.
> 
> B1


Boston, you said that MEMs advice was challenging. Okay, being direct and rocking the boat and making waves...new skills, I get that. But is there something else that keeps you from taking the bull by the horns?

From where I sit, doing exactly as MEM has suggested above, will end all of our fun here on this thread. While yes, that's a bad thing we would all miss you terribly, but it would accomplish so many great things for you. 

So what is holding you back?


----------



## MEM2020

Anon,

I believe you understand the spirit of my posts better than most. 

So - first I want to emphasize a few themes for the other readers - not for you - as you already know this. My primary theme with B1 was to get him to force communication with B2. To force communication about sex, not sex itself. Anyone can extort a bit of sex under duress, but getting someone to really open up, well that's harder and much more valuable in the long run. 

So for those who think I'm harsh or uncaring about B2, below is a recap of MEM's house rules pertaining physical intimacy:

*Compassion rules: * M2 is functionally impotent. Has been for just over two years now. My single favorite physical activity - fvcking - is over, finished, kaput. I'm not a martyr. This was a vow - in sickness - so I don't feel anger or resentment over it. M2 repeatedly offered me an *out* from the marriage based on her medical condition. While I know she did so with the hope that I would decline, and reassure her, she wasn't completely certain that I would stick around. This made me profoundly sad. Still does. Her angst was based on my extremely aggressive boundary enforcement within the bedroom. Karma is a bltch. 

While it's taken a while, M2 has accepted that I'm not being 'patient'. She realizes that I am ok with the loss of standard sex. 

*Kindness rules*: M2 gets the same loving, gentle treatment she got before her vajayjay broke. She is not treated as the child of a lessor God. We slowly converged on a routine of a couple times a week. I frequently tell her how happy I am with: her, and with her as my sole sexual partner. 

*Commitment rules*: She has the odd worry about me straying. Pure and simple, this is the paranoia of the impotent. Without ever mentioning either paranoia or impotence, I reassure her. I tell her that I am every bit as in love with her as always, and just as terrified of an un-anaesthetized penectomy as I was a decade ago. She is able to read my mind via facial expression and tone of voice - so she knows my reassurance is sincere. 

-----
Overall M2 has upheld her vows. Just tonight I heard her speak my favorite phrase. Unprompted she said: I really am in love with you. 

I just smiled. 

-----
As far as this thread and Boston are concerned. I haven't suggested that he even mention Divorce. I have simply pushed him really hard to use the topic of family size as a means for forcing some badly needed communication. 

Boston has not yet learned how to force communication. So I have pushed him hard to do so because he happens to have a golden opportunity right now. 

While sympathetic to B2's plight, I am keenly aware that she is every bit as ruthless in this part of their marriage as M2 was outside the bedroom here. This means that B1 will be InCel (involuntarily celibate) for the rest of his life, unless he addresses this situation via the context of B4. 

Despite my love for and commitment to M2, of she had been as ill behaved in the bedroom as she was outside the bedroom, I would have divorced her or demanded an open marriage long ago.......

QUOTE=Anon Pink;7830826]Boston, you said that MEMs advice was challenging. Okay, being direct and rocking the boat and making waves...new skills, I get that. But is there something else that keeps you from taking the bull by the horns?

From where I sit, doing exactly as MEM has suggested above, will end all of our fun here on this thread. While yes, that's a bad thing we would all miss you terribly, but it would accomplish so many great things for you. 

So what is holding you back?[/QUOTE]


----------



## jld

I really like what you said about kindness, compassion, and commitment in your marriage, MEM. I think you are to men on TAM what AP is to women here: knowledgeable, experienced, trustworthy guides.


----------



## BostonBruins32

i think you are right. this baby thing is the right time to have this really really serious talk.

i'm probably in denial, but i sincerely think she thinks I'm on board with a baby. Unless my quietness or reluctancy to join in on baby talk is that noticeable. Like I just dont think I've sent a clear message that I'm not on board. She may think I'm less on board, but not that I'm deal broken.


----------



## john117

You can communicate at 100mbps or more five times a day. If the person on the other side is not willing to listen or consider your input you might as well talk to a toaster oven.

Once again you're confusing normal and non normal people. Not physically but emotionally. So far we are 60 pages in this thread and have yet to get to the root cause. That by itself is not the key to fixing it but it is key to deciding how to proceed.

Instead of looking for sex or omens predicting sex or the lack thereof look for actual pathology that points to one path or another. Once you connect enough dots it's pretty clear how to proceed or whether there is a point in even proceeding.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

marriedfor8years said:


> Are you meeting all you her needs? Not just sexually but also emotionally. From a woman's prospective we just can't jump in the bed as easily as a man can. We need to see and feel some romance, some compliments, to meet our desires emotionally and then sexually we can give our all. A man can get aroused very easily not women. You have to work at it. I can tell you one thing grab her and go down on her and I bet she wouldn't refuse! I mean man handle her in a good passionate way and it will get her going! Nothing like a good hair pulling some rough kissing or being almost slammed up against a wall and then just gone down and don't stop until she pushes you away because she can't handle anymore and then I guarantee she will want sex! Again, this is from a womans point of view. We want to get off just as much as you guys do! The thing is you have to be willing to work at us first. Women take more time to get going and get primed up but once you do you will have a ton of fun! Good luck!


Um no... and I would take your bet

Lets switch your scenario...Husband witholding sex if his sex (resentment) sex starved wife grabs him in the shower won't take no for an answer and gets him off nothing changes... he is not suddenly awakened to sex (with her)...and thinks WTH.

Same with women like our wives... your theory may work with a subset of women who need to be dominated or have a rape fantasy or just high desire.

OF course some/many women have reactive desire but your scenario is not going to work in many cases and could constitute spousal rape.

And why do women need to be primed up? That's a flaw they should be responsible for their own priming especially in a marriage and that's a cop out.


----------



## usmarriedguy

Trying2figureitout said:


> And why do women need to be primed up? That's a flaw they should be responsible for their own priming especially in a marriage and that's a cop out.


Huh? 

While I do agree that many women are just not sexual and do not want to be dominated. I have no idea why I would not be responsible for bringing out the passion in my wife when I am the one who wants her to be passionate.

I do think that responsive desire can be an over played hand. Being assertive works best when she wants sex in the first place but if there are other problems it will not over come them.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> Um no... and I would take your bet
> 
> Lets switch your scenario...Husband witholding sex if his sex (resentment) sex starved wife grabs him in the shower won't take no for an answer and gets him off nothing changes... he is not suddenly awakened to sex (with her)...and thinks WTH.
> 
> Same with women like our wives... your theory may work with a subset of women who need to be dominated or have a rape fantasy or just high desire.
> 
> OF course some/many women have reactive desire but your scenario is not going to work in many cases and could constitute spousal rape.
> 
> And why do women need to be primed up? That's a flaw they should be responsible for their own priming especially in a marriage and that's a cop out.


I was trying to decided if it was worth it to respond to this. I decided that the merit of responding is not to you, T2, but to other people who will read this thread...the lurkers out there...

.......

Thank you all for coming. 

The above opinion couldn't be more short sited and self destructive. I can't speak for all women but I can speak for a lot of women.

Here is the bottom line, most women do not enjoy passive men. How you define passivity is up to you and your partner. How far from passivity a man must go to not appear passive at all, is again a personal case by case situation. But passive men are not attractive to the vast majority of women,

A non passive man will want his woman hot and bothered for him. What he has to do or say in order for her to be hot and bothered is again a person preference. But since so many women experience sexual desire as a response to his sexual desire, it goes to follow that leading your woman to the bedroom, and leading her thoughts to sex is in your best interest if you do not wish to be perceived as a passive man and worse yet, a passive lover.

Thanks and have a good day!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> I was trying to decided if it was worth it to respond to this. I decided that the merit of responding is not to you, T2, but to other people who will read this thread...the lurkers out there...
> 
> .......
> 
> Thank you all for coming.
> 
> The above opinion couldn't be more short sited and self destructive. I can't speak for all women but I can speak for a lot of women.
> 
> Here is the bottom line, most women do not enjoy passive men. How you define passivity is up to you and your partner. How far from passivity a man must go to not appear passive at all, is again a personal case by case situation. But passive men are not attractive to the vast majority of women,
> 
> A non passive man will want his woman hot and bothered for him. What he has to do or say in order for her to be hot and bothered is again a person preference. But since so many women experience sexual desire as a response to his sexual desire, it goes to follow that leading your woman to the bedroom, and leading her thoughts to sex is in your best interest if you do not wish to be perceived as a passive man and worse yet, a passive lover.
> 
> Thanks and have a good day!


Glad I make your day Anon...

Now lets look at this which men do women MARRY.... aggressive lead her to the bedroom men OR stable, intelligent , safe , good fathering figures that can provide a lifestyle they want or envision for themselves. Is that passive or a good husband? You decide. Deal is the aggressive to the bedroom husband likely will be on their third marriage or never married. A few manage to morph and results are mixed at best.

They are PERFECTLY fine with THAT "passive" man until they reach midlife or long term time frames in there marriage and their desire wanes or they grow into a more appealing woman who now questions what they are doing and who they married. Electronics do not help keep her focus and women tend to use social media much more than men.

See the men you describe are usually players in the single life... they are not the vast majority of long term married men. Just like you we have lives and responsibilities and don't have time to switch gears and change ourselves for our WIFE'S issue with sex she has from childhood. Sex should not be schemed...it should be a natural reaction to your spouse and not some bargaining chip that a man needs to act a certain way to obtain. Frankly you advice sounds good but is of little use in reality like many of the "cures" mentioned here..

Basically you are saying MMSL MAP works. In a certain VERY LIMITED amount of cases it does in many it doesn't. The answer is deeper than that .

Face it the odds of success are slim at best...and simplifying it to be aggressive is not the full answer.

The better answer is when the withholding spouse gets a *lightbulb moment* and decides sex is in their best interest.


----------



## Anon Pink

T2, this is not a case of either or.

Your wife didn't fall in love with a passive man! If she fell in love with you at all, she did so because she saw in you enough masculinity that you turned her on. As the years to by, most people begin to slack off on courting or chasing your partner.

Think back to those dating years. Did she dress nicely or always show up for dates in sweat pants and a tee shirt? Same for you, did you court her, or did you pop open a beer, scratch your balls, change the channel and ask if she wanted another slice of pizza?

You view it as one or the other. I don't. I view it as a sliding scale of compatibility based in changing needs and desires. Some men are too effing lazy to get with the program. As a result, they don't get laid very often.

But you are free to place the blame for your lack of sex for the last 4 years on her changes brought about by the security you provide. In the words of Dr. Phil,"how's that working for ya?"


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> T2, this is not a case of either or.
> 
> Your wife didn't fall in love with a passive man! If she fell in love with you at all, she did so because she saw in you enough masculinity that you turned her on. As the years to by, most people begin to slack off on courting or chasing your partner.
> 
> Think back to those dating years. Did she dress nicely or always show up for dates in sweat pants and a tee shirt? Same for you, did you court her, or did you pop open a beer, scratch your balls, change the channel and ask if she wanted another slice of pizza?
> 
> You view it as one or the other. I don't. I view it as a sliding scale of compatibility based in changing needs and desires. Some men are too effing lazy to get with the program. As a result, they don't get laid very often.
> 
> But you are free to place the blame for your lack of sex for the last 4 years on her changes brought about by the security you provide. In the words of Dr. Phil,"how's that working for ya?"


Just fine. Most of this is was woman's childhood and first male figure (Father, boyfriend) and not much us guys can do. We have to teach the basics of a relationship on the fly.

If you would actually think you would see I am correct on this. Women are driven by emotions forged in childhood.

Yet is the mans fault isn't it?

You are taking the general advice out there on the Internet..it doesn't work. If it did people would not be here seeking answers. I am telling you the answer.

What the male does leading up to a sexless marriage really has no or little effect... what happens happens.


----------



## usmarriedguy

No T2, I do not think we are discussing mmsl here. We are talking about normal self interested male behavior. 

I want sex with my wife because I like sex. If me being more assertive or more submissive helps that cause, than my view is whatever it takes. 

I can't claim to be a player in single life and I do not know what that has to do with being assertive with my wife. I do not think I understand why a man can't be a mixture of passive and assertive and why a woman can't have both a stable and a sexually assertive man.


----------



## john117

Anon, you're generalizing as much as T2 with all due respect.

During my dating years as a grad student a good date was Wendy's, a movie at the Student Center for $1 each, and a $3 bottle of Riunite wine (aka Italian paint remover). Sex was never an issue. 

As best as I can tell I have changed little in 30 years. I'm still the cheerful grad student that enjoys pranks in the lab with undergrads, late night runs to Denny's, and drives a hamster-mobile. Except now it's cruises to Alaska, a near-mansion home, and a pricy hamster-mobile. Except for 20 extra pounds I still have my awesome Einstein hair (than you Propecia ), my awesome sense of humor, and my God awful accent. Back then, as now, I dress nicely enough (pressed jeans and oxfords). 

I'm not the one who has changed. I'm not the one with more issues than Newsweek. Yet I'm the bad guy?

Maybe I should do like every other gray hair neighbor around me, dump the wench and the pups and enjoy life. Or push her on the bed and let her responsive desire or lack thereof make me front page news. 

And I'm the bad guy for wanting "revenge"???

Gotta run, my toaster oven is lonely.


----------



## Anon Pink

John, be careful toaster ovens can be temperamental.

You cannot take on board any generalized advice found here because your wife is a card carrying citizen of crazy town. She might even be running for office! It doesn't matter what you do or don't do. Your thoughts and feelings are irrelevant to her.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> What the male does leading up to a sexless marriage really has no or little effect... what happens happens.


You keep telling yourself that....


----------



## usmarriedguy

"Or push her on the bed and let her responsive desire or lack thereof make me front page news."


Agreed it is not every woman's cup of tea. 


...but the point is that if that is what it takes to get her interested why would you not do that? 

And in any case where the cause of "lack of desire" is unknown why would a spouse not try to be a bit more assertive?

(we are not talking wife rape here)


----------



## john117

And many other uncaring spouses we have seen here are different how?

If it walks like a duck etc etc... I'm not proclaiming a BPD epidemic on TAM and some cases (T2) have other pathology but a lot of them are too similar to simply ignore (pinksalmon for example and possibly even Boston)

Things don't happen for no reason at all.


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> ...but the point is that if that is what it takes to get her interested why would you not do that?
> 
> 
> 
> And in any case where the cause of "lack of desire" is unknown why would a spouse not try to be a bit more assertive?



Think back on what I wrote about EMV. 95% effort for 20% payoff is Vegas house odds. 

Just like the LD has an SLA in mind so does the non LD. If the two don't converge then no matter the effort they won't.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> And many other uncaring spouses we have seen here are different how?
> 
> If it walks like a duck etc etc... I'm not proclaiming a BPD epidemic on TAM and some cases (T2) have other pathology but a lot of them are too similar to simply ignore (pinksalmon for example and possibly even Boston)
> 
> Things don't happen for no reason at all.


At the risk of being impolite and discussing other threads in this thread, T2 and PinkSalmon have issues that began with the wife but remained issues due to lack of adequate response from the husband.

ETA
If I wasn't a woman who couldn't thrive without a close personal connection, our marriage would still be estranged and still be sexless. My husband did NOTHING to fix it. He had the power all along but he would take it until I dropped it and backed away 50 feet, turned my back and began walking away.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
This is your best and perhaps only chance to find the truth. FYI it's easy to label other folks as *low empathy*. 

In the spirit of exercising our own empathetic capabilities: 
Any discussion related to the denial of a spouses biological urges is inherently destabilizing and therefore terrifying. 

She's as terrified to say: I don't really like having sex with you 
As you are to state: there will be no B4 

Totally rational fears - on both sides. 

Up until now: She has conveyed her preferences by rejecting you via a constant stream of nonsensical excuses. 

And you have responded to her statements about B4 with silence. 

You have both retained plausible deniability. 

It's possible to be radically honest and kind at the same time. 


If you wish to escape this hall of mirrors, you need to take a hammer to all the illusions. Just recognize one thing before you start: B2 believes that her issues regarding sex are hard wired and utterly unchangeable. Her avoidance of therapy was not a function of laziness, she isn't lazy. It was a genuine belief that such therapy is pointless. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> i think you are right. this baby thing is the right time to have this really really serious talk.
> 
> i'm probably in denial, but i sincerely think she thinks I'm on board with a baby. Unless my quietness or reluctancy to join in on baby talk is that noticeable. Like I just dont think I've sent a clear message that I'm not on board. She may think I'm less on board, but not that I'm deal broken.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> At the risk of being impolite and discussing other threads in this thread, T2 and PinkSalmon have issues that began with the wife but remained issues due to lack of adequate response from the husband.



Maybe regardless of the response of the husband?

That's what I'm driving at here. At some point you feel you have done enough and pretty much call it a marriage, then either part ways STAT or bid your time and reap other benefits i.e. $$$. 

That's what EMV is all about. The effort and reward and probability of reward all factor into the expected return.


----------



## GettingIt_2

usmarriedguy said:


> ...but the point is that if that is what it takes to get her interested why would you not do that?
> 
> And in any case where the cause of "lack of desire" is unknown why would a spouse not try to be a bit more assertive?
> 
> (we are not talking wife rape here)


Yeah, this makes me scratch my head, too, usmarriedguy. 

I don't understand why it has to be someone's "fault" or why a man who'd like more sex and intimacy would shun information that would get him more. If you've been driving a 1999 Honda for fifteen years, and someone suddenly handed you the keys to the new Mustang, are you going to say, "Thanks but no thanks--that's not the car I'm used to?" 

Dude, you can LEARN to drive the new car. It'll be FUN.


----------



## Anon Pink

GettingIt said:


> Yeah, this makes me scratch my head, too, usmarriedguy.
> 
> I don't understand why it has to be someone's "fault" or why a man who'd like more sex and intimacy would shun information that would get him more. If you've been driving a 1999 Honda for fifteen years, and someone suddenly handed you the keys to the new Mustang, are you going to say, "Thanks but no thanks--that's not the car I'm used to?"
> 
> Dude, you can LEARN to drive the new car. It'll be FUN.


Sing it sister G!


----------



## GettingIt_2

john117 said:


> And many other uncaring spouses we have seen here are different how?
> 
> If it walks like a duck etc etc... I'm not proclaiming a BPD epidemic on TAM and some cases (T2) have other pathology but a lot of them are too similar to simply ignore (pinksalmon for example and possibly even Boston)
> 
> Things don't happen for no reason at all.


Its not just on TAM . . . I swear everyone I know has diagnosed someone in their life with BPD within the past year.  

And we all tend to see the duck we recognize from our own pond. But we give what we each have learned from our own experiences, and it's up to the OP to sort through it, add to it, and draw reasonable conclusions. 

And sometimes we have to accept that answers and reasons are never revealed, and just take responsibility for our own happiness.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> Maybe regardless of the response of the husband?
> 
> That's what I'm driving at here. At some point you feel you have done enough and pretty much call it a marriage, then either part ways STAT or bid your time and reap other benefits i.e. $$$.
> 
> That's what EMV is all about. The effort and reward and probability of reward all factor into the expected return.


John I have a hard time responding because your situation is unchangeable. But a LOT of other men here do have the potential to change things. I can point you to threads in which they have either ignored good advice, or eschewed suggestions by simply saying, no won't work for my wife.

I just don't buy it! Neither does GettingIt. If we could take a marriage with a long history of disconnect and sexlessness and turn it around by identifying our various roles in making the disconnect, why can't men do the same?


----------



## usmarriedguy

Not sure I understand John, 
-Unlike Vegas where a person actually has money on the line, I do not see where a person in a sexless marriage and contemplating divorce has anything to loose by trying to change their behavior in a way that makes them more sexually appealing.

Why would it matter if there is a low probability of success? The worst possible outcome is they remain sexless.

p.s. -I realize that you gave up a long time ago so I am not talking about you specifically.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> e.
> 
> I just don't buy it! Neither does GettingIt. If we could take a marriage with a long history of disconnect and sexlessness and turn it around by identifying our various roles in making the disconnect, why can't men do the same?



It's called gender. Quite simple 

Men are simpler and easier to read and influence than women. And still neither case study mentioned is optimal.


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> Why would it matter if there is a low probability of success? The worst possible outcome is they remain sexless.
> 
> 
> .



Effort is not free, and unlike Vegas, where the outcome of dice roll N is independent of rolls N - 1 etc, in the bedroom, rejection R - 1 influences the outcome of subsequent rejections R, R + 1, etc.

Think of a mid 50s guy that decides to climb Mt Everest. A few do, of enough effort is spent. For most, it's not worth it.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> John I have a hard time responding because your situation is unchangeable. But a LOT of other men here do have the potential to change things. I can point you to threads in which they have either ignored good advice, or eschewed suggestions by simply saying, no won't work for my wife.
> 
> I just don't buy it! Neither does GettingIt. If we could take a marriage with a long history of disconnect and sexlessness and turn it around by identifying our various roles in making the disconnect, why can't men do the same?


And the WOMAN it the sexual gatekeeper..THAT IS WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER as a man or husband to get enlightened....sure they need to stop destructive behavior but again we aren't the ones with sex issues apart from having a responsive sexual spouse.

You two were successful because a light bulb went off. PLAIN and SIMPLE.

Your husbands had no power in you doing that..you decided to change for your own self centered reasons in part based on what you saw in him but mostly in your own mind sorting out you mixed up emotions and dealing with resentment. SELF PRESERVATION.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I guess you value effort differently than I do. I think effort is free. 

And sure rejection has a cumulative effect but it is there regardless of any effort -it is simply unspoken. A few more vocal rejections are probably not going to actually hurt anything.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Trying2figureitout said:


> And the WOMAN it the sexual gatekeeper..THAT IS WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER as a man or husband to get enlightened....sure they need to stop destructive behavior but again we aren't the ones with sex issues apart from having a responsive sexual spouse.
> 
> You two were successful because a light bulb went off. PLAIN and SIMPLE.
> 
> Your husbands had no power in you doing that..you decided to change for your own self centered reasons in part based on what you saw in him but mostly in your own mind sorting out you mixed up emotions and dealing with resentment. SELF PRESERVATION.


Ok, lets play along and say that was the case, T2. At that point my husband was standing at a crossroads--when I came to him and said, "I figured it out. This is what I need." Ball was in HIS COURT. 

He stayed. Self preservation, right? I mean, why else would he?

You can reduce _anything_ anyone _ever_ does down to selfishness of one sort or another.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
Overall you come across as both rational and fair. That said I have noticed two areas where neither of those traits is evident:

Fitness: You tend to grossly exaggerate the time and effort required to get in shape. And then use that to dismiss the idea of even trying. 

Finances: 
You have rammed a very extreme tuition plan down J2's throat. There is no balance to it. Such a plan does not spring purely from generosity. Something else is also driving it. 

The reasonable John would fully fund undergrad. And maybe one year abroad. But not 10 years of school. 

Fitness and finances are not small things. 




john117 said:


> Effort is not free, and unlike Vegas, where the outcome of dice roll N is independent of rolls N - 1 etc, in the bedroom, rejection R - 1 influences the outcome of subsequent rejections R, R + 1, etc.
> 
> Think of a mid 50s guy that decides to climb Mt Everest. A few do, of enough effort is spent. For most, it's not worth it.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> And the WOMAN it the sexual gatekeeper..THAT IS WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER as a man or husband to get enlightened....sure they need to stop destructive behavior but again we aren't the ones with sex issues apart from having a responsive sexual spouse.
> 
> You two were successful because a light bulb went off. PLAIN and SIMPLE.
> 
> Your husbands had no power in you doing that..you decided to change for your own self centered reasons in part based on what you saw in him but mostly in your own mind sorting out you mixed up emotions and dealing with resentment. SELF PRESERVATION.


I'm not understanding you or your logic.

So, if I understand you correctly. It is your wife who changed in her desire for a PUA tyoe man. She even went out and found herself her very own PUA tyoe man and has been enjoying his body and masculinity ever since. 

Meanwhile, you stay the course. You keep on keeping on waiting for the day she wakes up and realizes the PUA boy toy isn't all he is cracked up to be. You have remained steadfast, loving, and emotionally available this whole time. 

She is the gate keeper and your only option is to wait patiently at the gate for her to open. You can't knock, ring the bell, shake things up, walk around the perimeter looking for another way in.myou cant do anything differently except apologize for not being the PUA. You do all of this waiting knowing that one day her light bulb will go on and she will reach out for you. 

Is that right?


----------



## john117

My idea of effort is unrelated to either of the items mentioned. Also others with similar situations don't have epic tuitions to worry about...

Effort means a lot more than 10 lb or instate tuition. I could be a 150 lb millionaire and it would not feature into the picture.

Effort is more about swallowing your pride and agreeing to small and stupid things, about watching a chick flick or needlessly painting a bedroom just because... In other words, about being in a relationship.

Think of how effort plays into the 180.


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> I guess you value effort differently than I do. I think effort is free.
> 
> 
> 
> And sure rejection has a cumulative effect but it is there regardless of any effort -it is simply unspoken. A few more vocal rejections are probably not going to actually hurt anything.



Effort is NOT free unless you're a 12 year old trying to figure out Call of Duty.

A few more rejections are instrumental in reenforcing the obvious Einstein quote... Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

It's affective psychology at its finest. Because of negative feelings about the LD, the non LD simply sees the effort as high risk / low benefit versus if the feeling is positive (class nerd asking prom queen for a date) it's seen as high benefit / low risk.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> I'm not understanding you or your logic.
> 
> So, if I understand you correctly. It is your wife who changed in her desire for a PUA tyoe man. She even went out and found herself her very own PUA tyoe man and has been enjoying his body and masculinity ever since.
> 
> Meanwhile, you stay the course. You keep on keeping on waiting for the day she wakes up and realizes the PUA boy toy isn't all he is cracked up to be. You have remained steadfast, loving, and emotionally available this whole time.
> 
> She is the gate keeper and your only option is to wait patiently at the gate for her to open. You can't knock, ring the bell, shake things up, walk around the perimeter looking for another way in.myou cant do anything differently except apologize for not being the PUA. You do all of this waiting knowing that one day her light bulb will go on and she will reach out for you.
> 
> Is that right?


Let me see if I can simplify... the situation will not resolve to ones liking unless the withholding spouse gets a light-bulb moment that they SHOULD be and are WILLING to provide a good sex-life to their OWN marriage and for their spouse.

Anything less and it becomes a CHORE or a fake.

So yes the light bulb moment is KEY..and evidenced in almost 100% of success stories here and elsewhere... The switch goes on problem solved.

I am actively working on getting my wife to have a light-bulb moment....faster than the natural process and shape our sex life. So in a way I am placing expectation in her head that when she does turn it on we are good from the get go.

Never been tried before this way. Sort of speeding up the process.


----------



## Anon Pink

Gee, I sure wish there was something a man could do to turn that light bulb on... :scratchhead:


----------



## MEM2020

John,
Don't you think that J2 correctly perceives that your tuition plan will push back her retirement date by many years?

That you and the girls ganged up on her to force her to work a bunch of extra years to fully cover all this schooling. And from what you have said, she doesn't like work, and wants to retire in a few years. 

I do believe that J2 is difficult. I also believe that you are dismissing/demonizing her by implying that she cares more about whether you watch Steel Magnolias with her, or let her paint the bedroom, than she does about having to work 3-5 extra years at a job she dislikes. 

I get why you're angry. Actually - anger is mainly a protective response to being hurt. Rejection hurts a lot. Much more so from a life partner you have treated well. 

You're punishing her for hurting you. Understandable. 





john117 said:


> My idea of effort is unrelated to either of the items mentioned. Also others with similar situations don't have epic tuitions to worry about...
> 
> Effort means a lot more than 10 lb or instate tuition. I could be a 150 lb millionaire and it would not feature into the picture.
> 
> Effort is more about swallowing your pride and agreeing to small and stupid things, about watching a chick flick or needlessly painting a bedroom just because... In other words, about being in a relationship.
> 
> Think of how effort plays into the 180.


----------



## john117

Whoa, pardner... 

The relatively massive college bills were not in the picture when the Rapture occurred 5 plus years ago. 

The relatively massive college bills are J2's doing as much as mine, since during two application processes the only criterion she was interested in was rankings and prestige, not a more pragmatic approach...


----------



## MEM2020

That makes sense. 

Help me understand this. 
Was J2's thinking: prestige is paramount, and the girls can borrow as needed to pay for anything after undergrad?

And was your thinking: in state for undergrad, and the. Top tier for grad school/med school?



QUOTE=john117;7846306]Whoa, pardner... 

The relatively massive college bills were not in the picture when the Rapture occurred 5 plus years ago. 

The relatively massive college bills are J2's doing as much as mine, since during two application processes the only criterion she was interested in was rankings and prestige, not a more pragmatic approach...[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

It's even more complicated than that 

J2, being a card carrying former member of the ruling class in Frigidistan, demands absolute prestige. Not to brag :rofl: but we have a pretty impressive art collection and an even more impressive house. This was all her idea and ole' Dr. J. here went along simply because in his part of the world luxury meant taking a taxi to the train station vs. the subway. To this day the only luxuries I have allowed myself are my Nikon and my Mini S. Morbid curiosity to see how the elite live I guess.

As a member of the 1%, J2 is completely detached from the cost of things (in a manner alarmingly similar to many of my neighbors). So to her, things like FAFSA and $45k tuitions (half that after scholarships) are as abstract as E = m c ^ 2. She simply has no interest in the cost. This is also standard BPD behavior. Prestige trumps cost.

The second thing that neither of us expected was that both girls would be relative geniuses in their fields. Especially the older one. I know enough about her stuff to know she's talented but until she went to college and lived it 24/7 it was hard to visualize. The younger was an awesome student in HS so it was not a surprise. Bottom line, if either girl was an average or just better than average student it would have been Paducah State for both.

My preference would indeed have been a good state school with less than insane tuition then top schools. But, as I explained last December, academia is a harsh mistress and like J2's art collection, pedigree does rule.

Financially we're ok till J4 hits medical school in the next couple years. Then it's sell the house time. Working is not an issue for either one of us, I love what I do and she kind of does... But I don't want a huge and empty nest.


----------



## MEM2020

John.
Truly you are hilarious. This stuff is just priceless.

That said - you triggered me. Not your fault at all. 

In parallel with coming at me full blast over a decision that cost a few hundred dollars, M2 was pushing our very mediocre student children to look at out of state schools. 

After exploding that: Dad - at the time our sole breadwinner - was apparently not entitled to a few hundred dollars of discretionary spend. But our kids (of course I love them - they are blood - they simply aren't serious students) were welcome to an extra 100K plus for undergrad - just because. 

This is why I quit working - and haven't looked for a job since. M2 works full time now. I love her - AND - I have yet to hear the magic words yet. She makes 1/6 what I did. 

Of course she's apologized profusely. I don't accept. Her apologies all have the same structure: the real meaning is 'I am sorry you are angry at me, please don't be angry at me any more'.

Okey dokie. Not mad at you any more. Just unwilling to support someone who truly believes that every dollar I earn is fully hers. 

Even after I had quit and a year had passed without me looking for a job, M2 did some very aggressive stuff about money. So - in addition to being on strike I moved 10 percent of our net worth into an account that she has NO ACcESS to. 

End of rant. 

QUOTE=john117;7849138]It's even more complicated than that 

J2, being a card carrying former member of the ruling class in Frigidistan, demands absolute prestige. Not to brag :rofl: but we have a pretty impressive art collection and an even more impressive house. This was all her idea and ole' Dr. J. here went along simply because in his part of the world luxury meant taking a taxi to the train station vs. the subway. To this day the only luxuries I have allowed myself are my Nikon and my Mini S. Morbid curiosity to see how the elite live I guess.

As a member of the 1%, J2 is completely detached from the cost of things (in a manner alarmingly similar to many of my neighbors). So to her, things like FAFSA and $45k tuitions (half that after scholarships) are as abstract as E = m c ^ 2. She simply has no interest in the cost. This is also standard BPD behavior. Prestige trumps cost.

The second thing that neither of us expected was that both girls would be relative geniuses in their fields. Especially the older one. I know enough about her stuff to know she's talented but until she went to college and lived it 24/7 it was hard to visualize. The younger was an awesome student in HS so it was not a surprise. Bottom line, if either girl was an average or just better than average student it would have been Paducah State for both.

My preference would indeed have been a good state school with less than insane tuition then top schools. But, as I explained last December, academia is a harsh mistress and like J2's art collection, pedigree does rule.

Financially we're ok till J4 hits medical school in the next couple years. Then it's sell the house time. Working is not an issue for either one of us, I love what I do and she kind of does... But I don't want a huge and empty nest.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

As I mentioned a while back I was not willing to divorce over sex, but I was willing to, and nearly divorced over, my older girl's choice of major / career. That's what started the whole thing.

Boston (Boston? Boston?) if you're still reading our rants, consider yourself lucky you don't have to worry about college for a dozen years. It's like Bridezilla but earlier, longer, and more expensive.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I'm listening. 

I could take the ole "pay for college yourself" approach as I was handed by my parents. I seemed to work out just fine, and potenially even better.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> I could take the ole "pay for college yourself" approach as I was handed by my parents. I seemed to work out just fine, and potenially even better.



You never know. My older one turned 21 and her friends took her to H00ters for her birthday. The manager asked her if she would like to work there while in college :rofl:

Maybe one could use the college cost routine to end additional child aspirations...


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> You never know. My older one turned 21 and her friends took her to H00ters for her birthday. The manager asked her if she would like to work there while in college :rofl:
> 
> Maybe one could use the college cost routine to end additional child aspirations...


Hooters = so overrated for wings.


----------



## john117

The pay was actually pretty good . I prefer BW3's myself for wings...


----------



## usmarriedguy

john117 said:


> Effort is NOT free unless you're a 12 year old trying to figure out Call of Duty.


Yes that is my point. the 12 year old is doing something he wants to do (thus no effort)

I do not understand why you would even argue this point because you obviously gave up some time ago and steadfastly refuse to consider any alternative other than your plan to divorce after your kids tuition is paid for. That sounds like a fine plan to me John -I think you should go with it. 



_"A few more rejections are instrumental in reenforcing the obvious Einstein quote... Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."_

Well if a person tries to be more assertive and it does not work than I think it would be rather foolish to advise them to try it over and over again? 


_"It's affective psychology at its finest. Because of negative feelings about the LD, the non LD simply sees the effort as high risk / low benefit versus if the feeling is positive (class nerd asking prom queen for a date) it's seen as high benefit / low risk."_

Yes I understand John, I get it. 
You feel that there is nothing you can do to change your plan just like T2 feels like there is nothing he can do to change his plan. You two know your wives better than anyone else around here and I suspect you are both correct and there is nothing either of you can do to change your situation. Either because your wives are intractable or because you two are intractable or both.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

usmarriedguy said:


> Yes that is my point. the 12 year old is doing something he wants to do (thus no effort)
> 
> I do not understand why you would even argue this point because you obviously gave up some time ago and steadfastly refuse to consider any alternative other than your plan to divorce after your kids tuition is paid for. That sounds like a fine plan to me John -I think you should go with it.
> 
> 
> 
> _"A few more rejections are instrumental in reenforcing the obvious Einstein quote... Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."_
> 
> Well if a person tries to be more assertive and it does not work than I think it would be rather foolish to advise them to try it over and over again?
> 
> 
> _"It's affective psychology at its finest. Because of negative feelings about the LD, the non LD simply sees the effort as high risk / low benefit versus if the feeling is positive (class nerd asking prom queen for a date) it's seen as high benefit / low risk."_
> 
> Yes I understand John, I get it.
> You feel that there is nothing you can do to change your plan just like T2 feels like there is nothing he can do to change his plan. You two know your wives better than anyone else around here and I suspect you are both correct and there is nothing either of you can do to change your situation. Either because your wives are intractable or because you two are intractable or both.


I think what it is is we both basically don't care for anything less than a normal marriage... neither of us see lack of sex as a deal breaker.. so we stay and deal with it.

In the end my thought is whatever makes my wife happy I will do even if that includes no normal sex life and long stretches without... however what this has done is caused a situation where she really isn't happy and outsourced some of her emotional needs. Because she knows deep down its wrong to withhold/outsource and I want sex. So the only way she will get truly happy is having regular sex with me...resolving our issue.

I am just waiting for her to figure that out on her own.
A woman's mind is not like a mans its all messed up with emotions.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> My preference would indeed have been a good state school with less than insane tuition then top schools. But, as I explained last December, academia is a harsh mistress and like J2's art collection, pedigree does rule.
> 
> Financially we're ok till J4 hits medical school in the next couple years. Then it's sell the house time. Working is not an issue for either one of us, I love what I do and she kind of does... But I don't want a huge and empty nest.


So you are staying married so that your wife's goal of having the children's education at these top schools can be accomplished? Not your goal, but her's, correct?

As an initial matter, this is a change from your previous posts, where you were adament that your daughters should receive the absolute best education possible with no loans.

Regardless, your wife wants this, not you. So why are you required to stick around finance something like that?


----------



## usmarriedguy

"So why are you required to stick around finance something like that?" 

He is not. He does not like to admit it but he actually likes the lifestyle that she provides. (just like I like the lifestyle my wife provides)

He would just like there to be a good sex life in addition to that.


----------



## john117

It's a common goal, as I said. The benefits of a better education - not prestige - are worth it. 

There's a big difference between prestige and quality.


----------



## john117

usmarriedguy said:


> "So why are you required to stick around finance something like that?"
> 
> 
> 
> He is not. He does not like to admit it but he actually likes the lifestyle that she provides. (just like I like the lifestyle my wife provides)
> 
> 
> 
> He would just like there to be a good sex life in addition to that.



Lifestyle, lolz.

I make more than she does but thanks to my more modest background I'm not interested in luxury. 

That's why the clock is ticking. J2 does not comprehend the numbers of retirement. Her idea is to either keep the current house - non starter - or build something similar in a retirement place - non starter, not interested in a 4500 sq ft golf club type place.

Everything is lining up for conflict and sex has nothing to do with it. Unrealistic financial expectations down the road do.

We both have a decade of corporate life left ahead of us. But in 2-3 years med school comes calling and sustaining that plus another partial graduate education plus a huge empty nest plus save for a luxury retirement ain't doable on our current income. We can do 3 of 4, not 4 of 4.

Numbers, my friend. It's all about numbers, not sex.


----------



## usmarriedguy

"Numbers, my friend. It's all about numbers, not sex." 

Yes, that is what I just said. 
Sex is just something you would like in addition to the numbers.

Who makes more is irrelevant because it is the combined income lifestyle that you want to keep.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> It's a common goal, as I said. The benefits of a better education - not prestige - are worth it.
> 
> There's a big difference between prestige and quality.


But that is not what you posted. You laid it all on her. The ridiculous tutition that will require you to sell your house (your words) is due to your wife's obsession with prestige, not yours (because you were fine with a state college). 

So that excuse for sticking around is merely an illusion. What is the real reason.


----------



## john117

No... Sex is not a deal breaker. Being broke is. 

We could have the sex life of mink and it still would be the same, except in the Financial Issues section.

Sex is an easier problem to comprehend without a lot of background. The root cause of all this is upbringing and cultural differences and BPD. The same root causes as anything else.

It is my experience that people get stupider as they age. My folks spent a lot of money on a house that sits empty without ever enjoying life after retirement. J2's parents did slightly better once the regime changed but still they focused too much on preserving lifestyle rather than enjoying their golden years.

I'm not that way. 

My idea of retirement is six months in my birth country in an interesting European capital and six months in a two bedroom spot in Florida. Perfectly doable with current college plans. J2's not on board with this. 

I don't plan to work forever to support a lifestyle that buys me nothing in return. The pleasure if living in a big house evaporates after a few years and all that's left is maintenance and bills.


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> But that is not what you posted. You laid it all on her. The ridiculous tutition that will require you to sell your house (your words) is due to your wife's obsession with prestige, not yours (because you were fine with a state college).
> 
> 
> 
> So that excuse for sticking around is merely an illusion. What is the real reason.


No illusions. Reality. 

Read the previous post for details. No point elaborating on this thread further....


----------



## Miss Independent

T2 In the end my thought is whatever makes my wife happy I will do even if that includes no normal sex life and long stretches without... however what this has done is caused a situation where she really isn't happy and outsourced some of her emotional needs. Because she knows deep down its wrong to withhold/outsource and I want sex. So the only way she will get truly happy is having regular sex with me...resolving .[/QUOTE]


So you'll stay with your wife until death even if your plan fail? If she's currently unhappy, why isn't she fixing it?


----------



## usmarriedguy

john117 said:


> No... Sex is not a deal breaker. Being broke is.


Yes I know. -That is why I have never advised you to change your situation. 

Rather recognize what it is that is really important to you and see the good in that instead of going around and acting like a martyr married to the dragon queen.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> No illusions. Reality.
> 
> Read the previous post for details. No point elaborating on this thread further....


Does not address the question, though it is a nice side step.


----------



## john117

It's too simplistic to create an Excel sheet and start filling in columns. In reality it's a chicken and egg problem not unlike what Boston is looking at.

Intimacy makes it easier for a couple to do other things together such as make decisions rationally and compromise without resentment. I'm not talking joined-at-the-hip symbionts but equals discussing things in a rational way.

It also works the other way around. If one partner has unrealistic expectations that cannot be met and refuses to compromise (magical thinking) then resentment creeps in and that's all she wrote for decisions and for anything else including intimacy.

Solve one and you solve the other, but both have to be worked on in unison and both partners must make the effort. Whether it's a Harvard education or a nice house and a baby is irrelevant.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

spinsterdurga said:


> T2 In the end my thought is whatever makes my wife happy I will do even if that includes no normal sex life and long stretches without... however what this has done is caused a situation where she really isn't happy and outsourced some of her emotional needs. Because she knows deep down its wrong to withhold/outsource and I want sex. So the only way she will get truly happy is having regular sex with me...resolving .
> 
> 
> So you'll stay with your wife until death even if your plan fail? If she's currently unhappy, why isn't she fixing it?


I know my issue I confirmed it today with the third party OM who was texting my wife those 100000's of times over a three year period. He and I hashed it all out on an hour phone call (he reached out to me). Him and her are NOT allowed to talk ever again he understands my view and is sorry he butted in.

What I confirmed today...straight from his accounts of what they talked about regarding my marriage. Which corresponds to what I said was the issue two years ago.


*My wife is a MEGA-GRUDGE holder.* She holds onto resentment from over four years ago and as far back as 20. That is the ONLY thing she ever mentioned to him is her inability to forgive me .

The OM could not get out of her what she was so resentful over...neither can I. It doesn't add up but "I threw her under the bus" evidently and it as ALL before she said ILYNILWY to me... everything after has been great by her admission to him.

I explained to her that the DEATH clause in our vow will be invoked by me if her old resentment of me cannot be resolved.

"Until *death* do us part"

*DEATH*=Not resolving any long term personal issue that damages the marriage past repair.

She has not properly dealt with her resentment at all both him and I believe she needs counseling. She needs to NOW or we are done.

I will divorce her if she cannot deal fully with all of her old resentment.

The other guy who WAS in her life reports to me ... most of their conversations were about me and her marriage to me... he was in a way her therapist sort of like I have with a lady here via e-mail and phone calls. It was an EA on her end not his he told her to stop with the infatuation he has a girlfriend. Their stories match up perfectly and she did not know he contacted me at all today until afterwards they have not spoken since she chose me over him who she "loved". They have not talked at all for three weeks . He did all of that on his own to come clean with me. He is just like me a good guy who got mixed up with her being her workout buddy in a group of three. he has not seen her in years he moved. He likes to help friends..he works with special needs people... he thought he was helping her. He realizes his mistake and profusely apologized for butting in to my life.

She is the problem.

At least I know what type of guy she likes. All of her guy friends are similar in personality to me . She in essence sought his support, talked day to day stuff they worked on business plans together as she has a side business and he has multiple off the ground side businesses he runs. She offloaded her emotional day to day needs to him. 

My wife has serious grudge/forgiveness/boundary issues she needs to address. Sex was not the issue...this forgiveness thing was and is our issue.


----------



## Miss Independent

T2 she's in counseling or has an appointment?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

spinsterdurga said:


> T2 she's in counseling or has an appointment?


We will hash it out fully this weekend. I am not letting her continue not addressing her grudge holding tendencies. If she is unable to we are done.

She has had plenty of time and support with two men after ILYNILWY.

She wrote off two best friends one repaired after four years of not talking, multiple neighbors, me and her sister.

She has serious grudge holding issues. Looks and acts normal is beautiful and fun ultra talented everyone's friend knows everyone with this *major grudge holding flaw*.

Probably stems from her childhood. Lucky me no warning label. Although I knew never to get on her bad side... guess what? I did somehow.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
They has a whole week to synchronize their stories. Of course he's telling you it was platonic.

You really have an intense need to pretend this wasn't physical? 

Texts saying:
I love you
Morning kisses (code for blowjob)

Kind of sad really. Because after a blatant 4 year affair in plain sight, you will be apologizing for the nth time for whatever imagined slights she invents to keep your hands off her. 

Prepare yourself. She doesn't want to be divorced but she's already told you she dislikes your touch. 





Trying2figureitout said:


> We will hash it out fully this weekend. I am not letting her continue not addressing her grudge holding tendencies. If she is unable to we are done.
> 
> She has had plenty of time and support with two men after ILYNILWY.
> 
> She wrote off two best friends one repaired after four years of not talking, multiple neighbors, me and her sister.
> 
> She has serious grudge holding issues. Looks and acts normal is beautiful and fun ultra talented everyone's friend knows everyone with this *major grudge holding flaw*.
> 
> Probably stems from her childhood. Lucky me no warning label. Although I knew never to get on her bad side... guess what? I did somehow.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> They has a whole week to synchronize their stories. Of course he's telling you it was platonic.
> 
> You really have an intense need to pretend this wasn't physical?
> 
> Texts saying:
> I love you
> Morning kisses (code for blowjob)
> 
> Kind of sad really. Because after a blatant 4 year affair in plain sight, you will be apologizing for the nth time for whatever imagined slights she invents to keep your hands off her.
> 
> Prepare yourself. She doesn't want to be divorced but she's already told you she dislikes your touch.


I know what happened... you don't. Mine is not a typical story.
They did not synchronize stories.


----------



## john117

T2, you have a guy reporting to you talking to Mrs. T2 about this or that? Is she working there also?

Brrrrr. What happens come annual review time???


----------



## BostonBruins32

God I feel like infidelity closed the book. I have been quietly monitoring, since the I need spacd thing 6 months ago. If I found 50% of what you knew about t2 , I would peace out of this marriage immediately. Especially now that my balls have dropped over the past 3-4 months. You gotta respect yourself more man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> God I feel like infidelity closed the book. I have been quietly monitoring, since the I need spacd thing 6 months ago. If I found 50% of what you knew about t2 , I would peace out of this marriage immediately. Especially now that my balls have dropped over the past 3-4 months. You gotta respect yourself more man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is you and that's fine. I do have self respect and deal with my situation in a certain way which is valid.

Me and John see life as an experiment. I have used the term game.

Turning around a marriage like mine is work. It really involves having the other person deal with their own flaws. My wife I look as has a disability... she tries to work around it and really is not all bad... she has this one big flaw.

She gave me 17 years of a marriage that was at a level I was not concerned about it and felt very lucky... I still feel lucky to have a legitimate chance to turn this around 100%. So for me its in the experiment aspect. I would rather fix the one I have than start over and if I am successful that is quite and accomplishment and kept my family intact. My wife needs help
and I am her husband that is what a spouse should do.

Her and I are free to peace out anytime... we don't because we both feel we can turn this around (once she gets over old resentment) .

So I resect your opinion I hope you respect mine. I am of the belief marriages fail because people don't try hard enough to make them work. The divorce find another is one path. Mine is to FIX the one I have. I may still divorce her everyone has a limit.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trying2figureitout said:


> That is you and that's fine. I do have self respect and deal with my situation in a certain way which is valid.
> 
> Me and John see life as an experiment. I have used the term game.
> 
> Turning around a marriage like mine is work. It really involves having the other person deal with their own flaws. My wife I look as has a disability... she tries to work around it and really is not all bad... she has this one big flaw.
> 
> She gave me 17 years of a marriage that was at a level I was not concerned about it and felt very lucky... I still feel lucky to have a legitimate chance to turn this around 100%. So for me its in the experiment aspect. I would rather fix the one I have than start over and if I am successful that is quite and accomplishment and kept my family intact. My wife needs help
> and I am her husband that is what a spouse should do.
> 
> Her and I are free to peace out anytime... we don't because we both feel we can turn this around (once she gets over old resentment) .
> 
> So I resect your opinion I hope you respect mine. I am of the belief marriages fail because people don't try hard enough to make them work. The divorce find another is one path. Mine is to FIX the one I have. I may still divorce her everyone has a limit.


no i respect your opinion. 

there are people on here who think I am nuts for staying in my marriage. To be honest, if hind sight is 20/20, I think I am nuts for getting married and having a child. My advice to any 20something year old person thinking about marriage would be to avoid it at all costs. 

Just kidding....





..sorta


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> no i respect your opinion.
> 
> there are people on here who think I am nuts for staying in my marriage. To be honest, if hind sight is 20/20, I think I am nuts for getting married and having a child. My advice to any 20something year old person thinking about marriage would be to avoid it at all costs.
> 
> Just kidding....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..sorta


I think that is valid advice in a way if you want to do the single life. Many people are fine single. others like me like the family life.

Even with all that has transpired I would still marry my wife again.

I think life gives you challenges, and you are tested throughout. I
also think I may be the only person who my wife could marry and make it.

Things do seem to happen for a reason, the moment you change the timeline everything in your life can change... my sons are great and I wouldn't have them without meeting my wife.


----------



## john117

An experiment has defined input conditions and timelines and ranges of expected outputs and possible explanations. More important, it has a hypothesis that needs to be proven or disproven.

My experiment took a year or two and was successful to the effect of stopping raging BPD behavior. Post experiment study and observation, however, has revealed many long term secondary effects caused by the initial success. 

Further analysis indicates that these secondary effects cannot be mitigated within the scope of the project (marriage). Therefore it is suggested that the experiment be discontinued.

That's how I would write it in my lab notebook.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Could someone please list out BPD traits? i keep tinkering back and forth with whether or not my wife has this..


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> Could someone please list out BPD traits? i keep tinkering back and forth with whether or not my wife has this..


Also check out ADHD (I think my wife has untreated ADHD as a much more likely possibility if I am looking for a medical diagnosis she doesn't fit the BPD mold)

The way I see it wives who pull this have some disorder they never addressed.

What are the Borderline Personality Disorder Traits?

Traits involving emotions:

1. Shifts in mood lasting only a few hours.

2. Anger that is inappropriate, intense or uncontrollable.

Traits involving behavior:

3. Self-destructive acts, such as self-mutilation or suicidal threats and gestures that happen more than once

4. Two potentially self-damaging impulsive behaviors. These could include alcohol and other drug abuse, compulsive spending, gambling, eating disorders, shoplifting, reckless driving, compulsive sexual behavior.

Traits involving identity

5. Marked, persistent identity disturbance shown by uncertainty in at least two areas. These areas can include self-image, sexual orientation, career choice or other long-term goals, friendships, values. People with Borderline Personality Disorder may not feel like they know who they are, or what they think, or what their opinions are, or what religion they should be. Instead, they may try to be what they think other people want them to be. Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder said, "I have a hard time figuring out my personality. I tend to be whomever I'm with." 
6. Chronic feelings of emptiness or boredom. Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder said, "I remember describing the feeling of having a deep hole in my stomach. An emptiness that I didn't know how to fill. My therapist told me that was from almost a "lack of a life". The more things you get into your life, the more relationships you get involved in, all of that fills that hole. As a borderline, I had no life. There were times when I couldn't stay in the same room with other people. It almost felt like what I think a panic attack would feel like."

Traits involving relationships

7. Unstable, chaotic intense relationships characterized by splitting (see below).

8. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

Splitting: the self and others are viewed as "all good" or "all bad." Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder said, "One day I would think my doctor was the best and I loved her, but if she challenged me in any way I hated her. There was no middle ground as in like. In my world, people were either the best or the worst. I couldn't understand the concept of middle ground." 

Alternating clinging and distancing behaviors (I Hate You, Don't Leave Me). Sometimes you want to be close to someone. But when you get close it feels TOO close and you feel like you have to get some space. This happens often.

Great difficulty trusting people and themselves. Early trust may have been shattered by people who were close to you.
Sensitivity to criticism or rejection.

Feeling of "needing" someone else to survive

Heavy need for affection and reassurance

Some people with Borderline Personality Disorder may have an unusually high degree of interpersonal sensitivity, insight and empathy

9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

This means feeling "out of it," or not being able to remember what you said or did. This mostly happens in times of severe stress.

Miscellaneous attributes of people with 
Borderline Personality Disorder:

People with Borderline Personality Disorder are often bright, witty, funny, life of the party.

They may have problems with object constancy. When a person leaves (even temporarily), they may have a problem recreating or remembering feelings of love that were present between themselves and the other. Often, Borderline Personality Disorder patients want to keep something belonging to the loved one around during separations.

They frequently have difficulty tolerating aloneness, even for short periods of time.

Their lives may be a chaotic landscape of job losses, interrupted educational pursuits, broken engagements, hospitalizations.

Many have a background of childhood physical, sexual, or emotional abuse or physical/emotional neglect.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

ADHD article...

Adult ADHD and the Sexless Marriage | Psychology Today

This makes more sense to me and fits her perfection always busy lifestyle and she admits to it, never liked school or learning had to do always. She compensates and I am left with all the fallout. Explains the grudge too.

Both BPD and ADHD left untreated are brutal on marriages and relationships.


----------



## john117

Go with the old BPD definition in DSM IV. They tried to fudge it with DSM V but did not at the end. 

From bpd resource.net: 

http://www.bpdresourcecenter.org/DSM-IV.html

Also check NPD 

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

Keep in mind those are spectrum disorders so the range of symptoms is not the same for everyone, and that there's also other things co-diagnosed...


----------



## john117

I'm the poster boy for ADHD and believe me it's never been an issue...


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Could someone please list out BPD traits? i keep tinkering back and forth with whether or not my wife has this..


Remember, you are not trained for this. So be wary of trying your own diagnosis based on some list that you got on the internet.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Remember, you are not trained for this. So be wary of trying your own diagnosis based on some list that you got on the internet.


absolutely. like adhd, everyone has it if you read the traits.

you have to take it with a grain of salt... I'm just trying to see her angle a bit. or try to get a feel for what i'm up against.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> They has a whole week to synchronize their stories. Of course he's telling you it was platonic.
> 
> You really have an intense need to pretend this wasn't physical?
> 
> Texts saying:
> I love you
> Morning kisses (code for blowjob)
> 
> Kind of sad really. Because after a blatant 4 year affair in plain sight, you will be apologizing for the nth time for whatever imagined slights she invents to keep your hands off her.
> 
> Prepare yourself. She doesn't want to be divorced but she's already told you she dislikes your touch.


I don't get T2 either...


----------



## john117

I don't think BPD is in the cards tho, you would know something is wrong. NPD maybe or some other, or plain old unresolved childhood or family issues.

The existence of BPD makes fixing things more complex but it does not, in itself, torpedo intimacy unless you're dealing with a straitjacket ready person which you're not.

Curious that she has a lot of BFF's yet does not want to discuss intimacy issues with them or if she does discuss intimacy she cheerfully ignores their input.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> I don't think BPD is in the cards tho, you would know something is wrong. NPD maybe or some other, or plain old unresolved childhood or family issues.
> 
> The existence of BPD makes fixing things more complex but it does not, in itself, torpedo intimacy unless you're dealing with a straitjacket ready person which you're not.
> 
> Curious that she has a lot of BFF's yet does not want to discuss intimacy issues with them or if she does discuss intimacy she cheerfully ignores their input.


Unless her math is off. 

In counseling she told the therapist I drink "like everyday." In disbelief I said " I drink everyday?". She said well maybe not. Maybe more like weekends. 

If I remained quiet, the therapist could have solved issues right there. Boom, alcoholic. But daily is different from a six pack on weekend. 

So my point is she may be telling them we have sex weekly( which was false until March)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> I don't think BPD is in the cards tho, you would know something is wrong. NPD maybe or some other, or *plain old unresolved childhood or family issues*.


Interesting thought. Perhaps, I don't know, like if she is a CSA survivor, that might be part of it? That's right, she is.

But for whatever reason, BB32 keeps ignoring that. I am a broken record on this, but I think it is part of the problem. As long as he ignores that elephant sitting in the corner (and permits her to do the same), I think he is going to go no where. At times, I think he wants that, so he can leave with a semi-clear conscience.


----------



## BostonBruins32

TAG.. i hear ya. but what would you like me to do? leave a CSA book in her car? ask her daily?

I absolutely think its part of the greater issue. Therapist too. But what should I do sir? caveman her down and bring her to counseling>?


----------



## john117

Yes.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> TAG.. i hear ya. but what would you like me to do? leave a CSA book in her car? ask her daily?
> 
> I absolutely think its part of the greater issue. Therapist too. But what should I do sir? caveman her down and bring her to counseling>?


Make it part of the over counseling that she needs to do. Of course, that will require you actually being honest about where you view the state of the marriage. 

My point is that you are chasing your tail worried about BPD, NPD, her not being attracted to you, what have you. Yet, despite that big elephant actually explaining a lot of her behavior, you continue to focus on your tail.

Have you looked into CSA to see how that can effect her thinking? Read up about it, such as in books like a Haunted Marriage? Talked to your own therapist about what you can do?

I will say again, all of the above does nothing if you continue your passive aggressive silent gaming playing without letting her know what you are thinking. You keep looking for a magic pill that will fix everything without you actually having to have a conversation with her that will actually make her uncomfortable.

At this point, I can safely say that you are the problem. Until you decide to actually have an adult conversation with her, nothing will get better. So either do that or leave.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Make it part of the over counseling that she needs to do. Of course, that will require you actually being honest about where you view the state of the marriage.
> 
> My point is that you are chasing your tail worried about BPD, NPD, her not being attracted to you, what have you. Yet, despite that big elephant actually explaining a lot of her behavior, you continue to focus on your tail.
> 
> Have you looked into CSA to see how that can effect her thinking? Read up about it, such as in books like a Haunted Marriage? Talked to your own therapist about what you can do?
> 
> I will say again, all of the above does nothing if you continue your passive aggressive silent gaming playing without letting her know what you are thinking. You keep looking for a magic pill that will fix everything without you actually having to have a conversation with her that will actually make her uncomfortable.
> 
> At this point, I can safely say that you are the problem. Until you decide to actually have an adult conversation with her, nothing will get better. So either do that or leave.


i hear ya. I've tried the adult conversation about 50,000 times. the real punch line here is that i should walk the talk and leave or ask for separation. maybe thats what you mean?

and I could be considered the problem, but that would mean I am the problem because I am not making her speak up. I'm not trying hard enough to get her to change? I hear your point, but I think you're on that extreme end.

our deep conversations result in her shrugging, making up excuses or zoning out. they go not so far. Its like argueing with my daughter over why Ernie isn't taller than Bert.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> i hear ya. I've tried the adult conversation about 50,000 times. the real punch line here is that i should walk the talk and leave or ask for separation. maybe thats what you mean?
> 
> and I could be considered the problem, but that would mean I am the problem because I am not making her speak up. I'm not trying hard enough to get her to change? I hear your point, but I think you're on that extreme end.
> 
> our deep conversations result in her shrugging, making up excuses or zoning out. they go not so far. Its like argueing with my daughter over why Ernie isn't taller than Bert.


No, I mean the deep discussion where you actually tell her in words the following:

1) I am not happy with our marriage and sex life;
2) It is making me lose my feelings for you;
3) I will not have another child with things this way; and
4) I am considering divorce because you do not appear interested in changing things.

You have said multiple times that you don't like upsetting her. You also note that you like the joy that you can give her. So you communicate through your actions that things really are not bad and when she mentions things she wants (like kids) you stay silent.

Pretty darn passive and not really all that deep. Since that approach has not done you well, tell her what you really think. Be calm and polite, but no sugar coating. See what happens.


----------



## john117

That has also been my experience. Instant anger, shrugging, shutdown, etc without a chance to discuss issues as adults.

You can't discuss stuff with someone unable to understand their importance. Not unwilling, mind you.... unable. I used to think it was unwilling first but it's not. That is what lack of empathy is all about.

Any discussion about sex ends up with the Acme LD Manual standard answers, and any attempt to discuss further is futile. Bert vs Ernie with a 50 year old.

Over the years they have gotten very good at deflecting and projecting blame, and even put out as needed to preserve order and peace in the kingdom. But the bottom line is you can't have a conversation the way normal people do.

That's why I think there's a PD involved here, not a huge one but still there. Emotional processing is a pretty good indicator.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> That has also been my experience. Instant anger, shrugging, shutdown, etc without a chance to discuss issues as adults.
> 
> You can't discuss stuff with some on unable to understand their importance. Not unwilling, mind you.... unable. I used to think it was unwilling first but it's not. That is what empathy is all about.
> 
> Any discussion about sex ends up with the Acme LD Manual standard answers, and any attempt to discuss further is futile.
> 
> Over the years they have gotten very good at deflecting and projecting blame, and even put out as needed to preserve order and peace in the kingdom. But the bottom line is you can't have a conversation the way normal people do.
> 
> That's why I think there's a PD involved here, not a huge one but still there. Emotional processing is a pretty good indicator.


But as you are unwilling to leave your marriage, I don't see this as addressing my point.

BB32, on the other hand, has at least written that he is considering that course of action. My point is why not let her in on that. Part of these discussions has to be about putting everything on the table.


----------



## john117

BB would have been gone years ago if he considered divorce a viable option. He's still there.

I'm simply commenting on the futility of trying to communicate with such a spouse and the possible pathology of it.

You seem to think dropping the D word left and right is a viable option. The problem is that it does not work as a deterrent any more than the death penalty does for crime.

Say it once and carry out in six months without remorse, that "works" to the extend that you either divorce or the fear does it's magic and adds a few kilotons of resentment in the mix.

A few people in TAM did (IndyTMI wrote a chilling series of posts on his case). BB's case is not even on the radar by those standards, he knows it, she knows it.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
What is your primary goal at this point? 
1. To get B2 to accept that weekly sex is a boundary
2. To get B2 to accept that you aren't interest in B4 
3. To understand why B2 doesn't really like sex with you

TAG,
Funny how this stuff works. 

When M2 was at her most 'in love' with the OM, our sex life was noticeably impaired. For a while we were down to once a week and she wasn't 'all there' emotionally. 

I remember one night, we were sitting in the car (waiting for our child who we knew was going to be delayed at least an hour) just talking about random stuff when I casually asked her if everything was ok between us. She said yes, but her tone of voice told me something different. 

I was quiet and she got defensive.
M2: If you think something's wrong, be specific. 
M1: For a while now, I haven't felt much desire from you
M2: (sharp and angry) When we have sex do I make sure it's good for you? 
M1: (stunned by the emotional flash bang) uh yes 
M2: (still sharp and angry) it's never enough for you 
M1: (realizes that she is jamming the communication channel with anger as a way to block him from any read of what's gong on in her head) that's not..... (trailing off)
After a long silence, conversation resumes as if nothing had happened.

I don't think B2 is having an affair. 

I do think that nothing less than the duress over B4 is going to get her to address their 


QUOTE=Tall Average Guy;7881562]Interesting thought. Perhaps, I don't know, like if she is a CSA survivor, that might be part of it? That's right, she is.

But for whatever reason, BB32 keeps ignoring that. I am a broken record on this, but I think it is part of the problem. As long as he ignores that elephant sitting in the corner (and permits her to do the same), I think he is going to go no where. At times, I think he wants that, so he can leave with a semi-clear conscience.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> BB would have been gone years ago if he considered divorce a viable option. He's still there.


I disagree.



> I'm simply commenting on the futility of trying to communicate with such a spouse and the possible pathology of it.


And I am noting the futility of not actually communicating.



> You seem to think dropping the D word left and right is a viable option. The problem is that it does not work as a deterrent any more than the death penalty does for crime.


Never said it does. But it may wake her up. Perhaps it won't, but no harm trying.



> Say it once and carry out in six months without remorse, that "works" to the extend that you either divorce or the fear does it's magic and adds a few kilotons of resentment in the mix.
> 
> A few people in TAM did (IndyTMI wrote a chilling series of posts on his case). BB's case is not even on the radar by those standards, he knows it, she knows it.


I get that any action is too much in your book and doomed to fail. You have decided for what ever reasons to stick it out. It has actually become clear that you like your situation, in a "you're only happy when it rains" sort of deal.

But others are not. That BB is not in the same place as someone like Indy does negate that he is unhappy and wants things to change. The question becomes whether he wants to change, or just likes being able to complain.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

MEM11363 said:


> I do think that nothing less than the duress over B4 is going to get her to address their


I agree. If she is as concerned about appearances, including the perfect home and family, down to the white picket fence, divorce may spur her as well.

But BB is fine with not actually confronting anything (because he refuses to make her uncomfortable). Nothing can be fixed until he does that.


----------



## john117

> Never said it does. But it may wake her up. Perhaps it won't, but no harm trying.


Way too simplistic.

No harm trying?

Let's say it works once... What then? 

Threaten divorce for the next issue that will come up?

That's not how life works. The moment you go tit for tat you lost the game. You infuriate the other side and get into all kind of pithy matches and meanwhile drift further apart.

I threatened divorce, filled the forms, talked to the lawyer, the whole none yards. She backed out. But the resentment from that among other things killed our marriage.

Take action when needed, but only if you are able and willing to live with the consequences of taking the action. Or live with the consequences of having thought of taking the action. 

BB has not figured out what the root cause is. 

When you calmly fill out divorce paperwork in the kitchen table while your wife is raging about what an a-hole you are, neither side wins.

Set a deadline and when it passes, Ding Ding. That's all. She may give in but then BB will be here in a few years complaining of duty sex for the next 30 years.


----------



## usmarriedguy

I do not think explaining to someone that unless the relationship improves you will have to move on is equivalent to the death penalty.

People kill other people because they are not thinking or they think they will not get caught. 

Divorce is entirely different.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tall Average Guy said:


> No, I mean the deep discussion where you actually tell her in words the following:
> 
> 1) I am not happy with our marriage and sex life;
> 2) It is making me lose my feelings for you;
> 3) I will not have another child with things this way; and
> 4) I am considering divorce because you do not appear interested in changing things.
> 
> You have said multiple times that you don't like upsetting her. You also note that you like the joy that you can give her. So you communicate through your actions that things really are not bad and when she mentions things she wants (like kids) you stay silent.
> 
> Pretty darn passive and not really all that deep. Since that approach has not done you well, tell her what you really think. Be calm and polite, but no sugar coating. See what happens.



The key is to find the absolute root cause. Then you can work on that first.

I don't think you have the divorce conversation prior to that.

If you are very aware and listen to your wife she probably already told you what the root cause was.

I was lucky to get at the root... had i listened intently my wife's repeated *"I have trouble forgiving"* several times in various conversations was in essence the entire root issue.

Had I honed in on that and addressed it I might have been able to address it then with her, now I will minus her confidant.

So BB look for phrases your wife says then dig deeper, ask her what her struggle is then..she probably already told you the root cause.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> Way too simplistic.
> 
> No harm trying?
> 
> Let's say it works once... What then?
> 
> Threaten divorce for the next issue that will come up?


Except that the issue is about her refusal to address any issue.



> That's not how life works. The moment you go tit for tat you lost the game. You infuriate the other side and get into all kind of pithy matches and meanwhile drift further apart.
> 
> I threatened divorce, filled the forms, talked to the lawyer, the whole none yards. She backed out. But the resentment from that among other things killed our marriage.


Actually, you backed out.



> Take action when needed, but only if you are able and willing to live with the consequences of taking the action. Or live with the consequences of having thought of taking the action.


Agreed.



> BB has not figured out what the root cause is.
> 
> When you calmly fill out divorce paperwork in the kitchen table while your wife is raging about what an a-hole you are, neither side wins.


Why not? Why, in a situtation where your wife is making you miserable, is getting a divorce not a win?



> Set a deadline and when it passes, Ding Ding. That's all. She may give in but then BB will be here in a few years complaining of duty sex for the next 30 years.


If sex is the only issue raised, then sure. But if he works on the bigger picture, perhaps not. 

Alternatively, he can wallow in being the victim, never leaving but never having a solution either.


----------



## john117

And in Mrs. BB's case it could well be that they think it won't happen to them either, as in, no deterrent value.

This is a say once and do proposition, and if you don't, you lose serious credibility.

Think of a scenario... X threatens divorce over such and such. X2 backs down. A few years later X2 and X have other issues that can't be resolved. X2 may threaten, etc.

Like nuclear weapons, divorce is useful but usually only when kept away from the negotiation table but in the mind of all involved.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> This is a say once and do proposition, and if you don't, you lose serious credibility.


I absolutely agree with this. BB needs to be as serious as a heart attack when he raises this issue. If she still refuses to budge, he needs to file. Anything less will make the marriage worse.


----------



## john117

> Actually, you backed out


Not quite.

I told J2 since 8th or 9th grade our older daughter was talented in the arts it would be a no brainer to guide her to an art and design type education. J2 wanted medical school or else. 

Eventually as 11th grade came by and no buy in from J2 was forthcoming I started looking for a way to show her what was on the table. It seemed to have worked. Had the lawyer talk, got the paperwork, filled it, the whole 9 yards. 

That's what started the whole rupture. Of course you're entitled to your own interpretation of events.


----------



## GettingIt_2

john117 said:


> Not quite.
> 
> I told J2 since 8th or 9th grade our older daughter was talented in the arts it would be a no brainer to guide her to an art and design type education. J2 wanted medical school or else.
> 
> Eventually as 11th grade came by and no buy in from J2 was forthcoming I started looking for a way to show her what was on the table. It seemed to have worked. Had the lawyer talk, got the paperwork, filled it, the whole 9 yards.
> 
> That's what started the whole rupture. Of course you're entitled to your own interpretation of events.


OMG, finally FINALLY a succinct explanation. I've been reading your posts for a YEAR and after every one I'm left scratching my head over what the heck happened to your marriage.

I think I finally understand.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> That's what started the whole rupture. Of course you're entitled to your own interpretation of events.


And you backed out of the divorce.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

There's only one way to stop a divorce once paperwork has been filed. The one filing has to stop it. She may have capitulated, but you're the one who backed off.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Mem,

This is sort of embarrassing to admit, but I just want affirmation tgat she loves me. Not the package I offer. Sex is intermingled, but I miss the security (maybe false) that I had 5 years ago that she's into me, desires me, and loves me.

Cue the violen. Go for it everyone, take your shots
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Mem,
> 
> This is sort of embarrassing to admit, but I just want affirmation tgat she loves me. Not the package I offer. Sex is intermingled, but I miss the security (maybe false) that I had 5 years ago that she's into me, desires me, and loves me.
> 
> Cue the violen. Go for it everyone, take your shots
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not going to take a shot; who doesn't want their spouse to love them? But being loved and feeling loved are different. She might love you, but if you don't feel like she does, then . . . 

Is it that you want her to show love to you in the same way you show love to love her? Because people love differently, and show it differently. That is not to say that she couldn't learn your "love language" and show you love on your terms, but that won't mean she feels it any stronger; it just means you will. 

And maybe that is all you are looking for?


----------



## cactusman76

Sexual compatibility. That's it. As I get older I have less and less patience for things that don't make me happy. I'm not going to waste time wondering when or if sex is going to happen. If I get rejected anymore when I start seeing someone, the first time is a warning. I clearly state "You rejected me for sex." I understand not being in the mood but I want to identify that act as a problem. You rejected me, that's not ok, I am unsatisfied, this is an issue. 

I am a HD guy and make no apologies. I expect sex every day, preferably twice, and on weekends every 2-4 hours. If this is too much that's fine, but we aren't sexually compatible. I have dialed it down for women I thought were great, but not much. I have never and will never cheat, so my SO is the only option for me. If I'm not getting it, I'm getting out.

No more rock hard morning wood pressed between her legs in the morning and she gets up to make coffee. Same in the shower, on the couch, whatever. Life is too short. Some of the best sex Ive ever had started with "I'm not really in the mood, but OK" After? Totally different story. Guess you were more in the mood than you thought.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Well maybe. I'm honestly rattled by her "need space" and the sexual rejections, the other stuff is pile on that I'm admittedly hyper sensitive to because of the space and rejections. 

Plus the input and advise on this site has my brain spinning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

In my state it is customary for lawyers to collect a hefty retainer up front then hourly rate for divorce cases. Up to filing it was done per hour.

So, to file it would be a few thousand dollars, then additional expense for the "we kissed and made up" part of the program.

Don't know about our tag team here but I was not prepare to blow a few thousand dollars just to further reinforce a point which had already gone my way. 

In addition, as is typical with many cultures outside the USA, one had to provide a way for the other party to "save face" and achieve buy-in. Filing just to prove a point would likely have closed that path.

The following months as applications and portfolios were sent and acceptance letters and scholarship offers started rolling in, and after J2 started realizing the talent we were dealing with, J2 did a complete 180 and accepted the fact that not everyone can be a doctor... Three years later J2 is J3's main cheerleader and she firmly believes she (J2) was instrumental in pushing J3 to a highly ranked design program  (read part about save face above)

Summary:

1. Don't use divorce as a idle threat
2. Be aware of the timeline, costs, and process issues
3. Give your spouse a way to "save face"
4. Watch out for revenge filings by the spouse or other revenge plots ie affairs...
5. Be aware that the moment you mention divorce your marriage changes, regardless of further action.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> Mem,
> 
> 
> 
> This is sort of embarrassing to admit, but I just want affirmation tgat she loves me. Not the package I offer. Sex is intermingled, but I miss the security (maybe false) that I had 5 years ago that she's into me, desires me, and loves me.
> 
> 
> 
> Cue the violen. Go for it everyone, take your shots
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I would cue the violins but the only decent violin app for IOS svcks wind. The Littlest Violin app on Windows Phone was awesome...

Agree 100%. It's about love and concern and the like, not just physical sex. Not even security, the right word is comfort. 

At work they show you appreciation regularity by paying you. I don't expect a marble bust of my likeness in the foyer (my daughter could 3d print me one) but I get more appreciation from the United Way...


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Mem,
> 
> This is sort of embarrassing to admit, but I just want affirmation tgat she loves me. Not the package I offer. Sex is intermingled, but I miss the security (maybe false) that I had 5 years ago that she's into me, desires me, and loves me.
> 
> Cue the violen. Go for it everyone, take your shots
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





BostonBruins32 said:


> Well maybe. I'm honestly rattled by her "need space" and the sexual rejections, the other stuff is pile on that I'm admittedly hyper sensitive to because of the space and rejections.
> 
> Plus the input and advise on this site has my brain spinning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh Boston. I feel for you! I really know how this level of insecurity screws with you. 

"Is it me? Is there something wrong with me that this does NOT feel like love anymore, or am I sensing the reality they are trying to prevent me from knowing?"

You don't have to justify it. You are married and doing your part. You also get to feel loved and respected. 
1. Identify what you need to feel loved and respected.
2. Communicate that to your wife.
3. Insist it happen.
4 if it doesn't happen you have your answer.

Those are the step I followed. They might work for you or they might not be right for you. But no one should stay where they don't feel wanted.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
You should be proud not embarrassed. You're priorities are solid. 

Like all of us, I have an enormous audio and image library in my head. By FAR my favorites are:
Audio: hearing M2 say 'I am so in love with you'. (This only happens a few times a year, and that's ok. It is spontaneous, genuine and utterly disconnected from anything she wants from me. This isn't *game*, it's love). 
Image/video: her look of admiration (rare, beautiful and un counterfeitable)

And yes - the giving of herself to me as a wife. And that is part and parcel. It's not separable from the other two. 

Thing about M2 - she has good values. Responds well to courage, determination and success. Can't really bribe her with stuff. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> Mem,
> 
> This is sort of embarrassing to admit, but I just want affirmation tgat she loves me. Not the package I offer. Sex is intermingled, but I miss the security (maybe false) that I had 5 years ago that she's into me, desires me, and loves me.
> 
> Cue the violen. Go for it everyone, take your shots
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

*Question*

Boston,
When are you going to initiate the conversation about B4?

The gentlest approach to this would be to allow B2 to digest it and respond in a timeframe that works for her. 

One way to do that is:
B1: B2, I know we originally talked about trying for B4 this coming Fall. I no longer support that plan. Let me know when you want to talk about that.

At this point B2 will either force the conversation in the moment, or back off. If she backs off she may begin applying some softening tactics. These could be:
- Bad cop or
- Good cop

Either way, you might want to wait until she's ready. That said, if you are getting the bad cop routine, you can calmly say: Baby fever or otherwise, you need to manage your behavior. 



BostonBruins32 said:


> Well maybe. I'm honestly rattled by her "need space" and the sexual rejections, the other stuff is pile on that I'm admittedly hyper sensitive to because of the space and rejections.
> 
> Plus the input and advise on this site has my brain spinning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

BB,

I haven't read all of your thread, but it counts as one of many sexless marriage thread. There are both men and women in your situation. It's a lot harder for guys to read about men who don't want sex because it is part of our nature.

When boys first start becoming super interested in girls as they enter puberty (and the interest starts even a bit before any public hair appears) they listen to older guys talking about getting on base:

"Did you score?"

or "does she put out?"

Biologically women see themselves as giving something. Sexual intercourse leads to 9 months of pregnancy and years of child rearing. By definition a woman is prepared to cut back on sex to protect existing investment in children in the world. I think that once you see the selfish gene logic of female sexual desire you don't have to it so personally.

That does not give you a magic solution to the emotional turmoil. Look at the creatures in the world. A fruit fly has no idea whether human motion is random or the threat of a predator. It flies when its nervous system sets off alarms. It is not capable of greater analysis. You are trying to figure out what to do. 

I am always impressed by dog trainers, usually they are women but not always. They establish control over dogs almost instantly. It is really strange. My mother's uncontrolled black lab was/is a super trouble maker. The dog is engaging and lovable but extremely difficult, running through doors to escape, stealing food, etc.

The dog loves my brother, who bought it, it listens to time somewhat. To my mother it expresses no respect. She is alpha and my mother is beta. My mother talks to the dog as if it were human. She has little insight into dog behavior. She wants it to be human.

When I visit my parents I take the dog for long walks. I hit her to make her stop chew dead animals or acting outrageously. Striking the dog hurts my hand more than it hurts the dog. It is incredibly tough. The respects me and considers me alpha. It loves me for the adventures in woods and companionship. But it does not love me above certain other people.

It loves my fathers former employee who always gives it treats. It loves him and will love him even if he gives her nothing.

A dog minder I met and got my mother to hire knew my mother's dog just from walking other dogs. She could get my mother's dog to do more or less what she wanted from the word go. The respects and wants her approval. She understands dogs.

Can men understand women like that? We aren't actually designed to understand ourselves so well. TAM discussions that go on and on are evidence of our uncertainty.

You don't want to threaten divorce because it is a blunt tool. When I hit my mother's dog (to hurt my hand) to earn respect, I feel foolish. It works but I would rather be able to command respect by having the dog minder's skill. However, the dog minder doesn't love all the dogs it manages. She loves dogs and she loves her skill. The dog and I have a relationship which is significant.

You want enough skill in understand and influencing your wife to win her love but you don't want so much that the mystery, which is part of attraction, has vanished.

Can you get your wife to go wall climbing, play tennis, etc. to get her blood flowing? Can you become more of a leader? Get a V torso? Can you you detach and offer less emotional affirmation so that she seeks to win you back? Can you listen to her carefully to better understand resentments she has?

Are you prepared to put your relationship on the line to save it?

Gettingit has written about rediscovering her husband and saving their relationship.

At some level if you are convinced that you deserve a better life and you are determined to make it, your wife will feel that. Maybe it's not just the notion that you would divorce her, but the gut feeling that you are going to be loved and happy that would increase her attraction.

... I remember once reading about combat fighter pilots in the Pacific theater. It was tricky finding the enemy ships in the expanse of sea. Radio wasn't that good in those days. After an engagement they had to fly back to the carrier, which of course had not been sitting still. Two pilots who had won the fire fight and were headed back. They had just 45 minutes of fuel.

They communicated by wiggling wings. One signaled that the ship was "that a way." His buddy disagreed. They tipped wings to say goodbye. Only one of them told the tale.

Our lives are not so life and death dramatic, but in the end you have to push foward somehow or just shrivel up inside.


----------



## usmarriedguy

john117 said:


> And in Mrs. BB's case it could well be that they think it won't happen to them either, as in, no deterrent value.
> 
> This is a say once and do proposition, and if you don't, you lose serious credibility.
> 
> Think of a scenario... X threatens divorce over such and such. X2 backs down. A few years later X2 and X have other issues that can't be resolved. X2 may threaten, etc.
> 
> Like nuclear weapons, divorce is useful but usually only when kept away from the negotiation table but in the mind of all involved.


Not really, one person can kill another in an instant divorce happens over a long period of time. 

Yes, you would loose credibility if you tell someone that the quality of the relationship need to improve or you will divorce but then do not follow through -I would never advise someone to make empty threats. 

It is true that some people would not respond well to threats but so what? It is not really a threat, it is a simple fact of life. Either the marriage is worth compromise or it is not. 

She may think it won't happen but once the paperwork starts to be generated I doubt she will not get it. 

That is why my first piece of advice is always be honest with yourself about what you can except. Do not try to manipulate a spouse into having more sex just because you would like more sex. Rather recognize the good things in the marriage that make you want to stay married to that person and build on those.


----------



## usmarriedguy

john117 said:


> In my state it is customary for lawyers to collect a hefty retainer up front then hourly rate for divorce cases. Up to filing it was done per hour.
> 
> So, to file it would be a few thousand dollars, then additional expense for the "we kissed and made up" part of the program.
> 
> Don't know about our tag team here but I was not prepare to blow a few thousand dollars just to further reinforce a point which had already gone my way.
> 
> In addition, as is typical with many cultures outside the USA, one had to provide a way for the other party to "save face" and achieve buy-in. Filing just to prove a point would likely have closed that path.
> 
> The following months as applications and portfolios were sent and acceptance letters and scholarship offers started rolling in, and after J2 started realizing the talent we were dealing with, J2 did a complete 180 and accepted the fact that not everyone can be a doctor... Three years later J2 is J3's main cheerleader and she firmly believes she (J2) was instrumental in pushing J3 to a highly ranked design program  (read part about save face above)
> 
> Summary:
> 
> 1. Don't use divorce as a idle threat
> 2. Be aware of the timeline, costs, and process issues
> 3. Give your spouse a way to "save face"
> 4. Watch out for revenge filings by the spouse or other revenge plots ie affairs...
> 5. Be aware that the moment you mention divorce your marriage changes, regardless of further action.



I don't know how you come to that summery. You threatened divorce and J2 did a 180. 

You may have picked the wrong fight though.


----------



## john117

My 180 was in progress due to BPD and other events actually. BPD's are generally not capable of doing a TAM spec 180 due to the push-pull nature nature of BPD.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

I think talking about divorce is similar to talking about end of life planning. In many cases it needs to be discussed when there are long term challenges left not addressed. Because the reality is those could kill the marriage and need to be discussed with your spouse. Honestly and calmly.

The spouse needs to know what the deal breakers are (as they occur) and its hard to get that point through without mentioning the end of the marriage.

My wife knows my deal breaker is when she stops working toward resolving ANY SERIOUS ISSUE in our marriage. So if she stops making progress or fights me on ANY SERIOUS ISSUE then we will divorce. So far I have seen progress but we have several challenges left namely her forgiving me fully for the past prior to ILYNILWY with her heart not just her head. Non forgiveness is a SERIOUS ISSUE causing many other issues. I will not divorce her over sex but will drop her if she cannot forgive me. Because I know once she forgives the rest will flow naturally sex is not our main issue her grudge is..Not fully addressed resentment is a deal breaker.

Women tend to not face things that cause them pain (forcing herself to forgive is painful to her and has only happened once after years all the rest she wrote off) they take their good old time it really is sad like watching paint dry. She forgave me partially early (her head) in this then complained to her confidant about forgiveness for years allowing her to not face it... now she has to. Needs to be fully and with verve (her heart) that is the deal breaker if it does not happen. Her heart needs to forgive me and be willing to be open to the new man I have become over the past four years. She doesn't quite yet know how to relate to me now... its different and she is finding her way through. She likes the changes but knows she can't just fall back into old habits that were easy it takes some actual work on her part for us to remain married.


----------



## john117

Funny you mentioned "wrong fight".

Dealing with a BPD involves picking the right fights and mitigating the wrong ones to "ignore away" or "manipulate away" status. 

In my professional judgement, J2's resentment has not been because of a tactical win over J3's choice but because of the hefty boundaries I set and maintained on J2 during her active rage days. 

That's why I told BB that he will recognize BPD by the severity of the symptoms. He's very likely not dealing with that.

After a couple years worth of rages countered with equal or more force anti-rages (kind of against the commonly accepted methods of dealing with BPD) the rages slowed down to a trickle. But the boundaries and reminders of expected behavior (think of it as DIY CBT) are still there and while she's now starting to see her mistakes getting past resentments will take serious professional work.

Read my posts on the Mental Health board...


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Two plus years ago I suggested that you ask your W to give you back massages if she wasn't agreeable to having sex.

You never once responded to that suggestion. FYI: the idea was to get her comfortable touching you again. 

You reference her working on her issues and yet - your definition of what constitutes effort is so abstract as to be meaningless. 

Tonight M2s back was stiff. I gladly gave her a lengthy massage. Last night she gladly had sex with me. Reciprocity is a beautiful thing.....



UOTE=Trying2figureitout;7898274]I think talking about divorce is similar to talking about end of life planning. In many cases it needs to be discussed when there are long term challenges left not addressed. Because the reality is those could kill the marriage and need to be discussed with your spouse. Honestly and calmly.

The spouse needs to know what the deal breakers are (as they occur) and its hard to get that point through without mentioning the end of the marriage.

My wife knows my deal breaker is when she stops working toward resolving ANY SERIOUS ISSUE in our marriage. So if she stops making progress or fights me on ANY SERIOUS ISSUE then we will divorce. So far I have seen progress but we have several challenges left namely her forgiving me fully for the past prior to ILYNILWY with her heart not just her head. Non forgiveness is a SERIOUS ISSUE causing many other issues. I will not divorce her over sex but will drop her if she cannot forgive me. Because I know once she forgives the rest will flow naturally sex is not our main issue her grudge is..Not fully addressed resentment is a deal breaker.

Women tend to not face things that cause them pain (forcing herself to forgive is painful to her and has only happened once after years all the rest she wrote off) they take their good old time it really is sad like watching paint dry. She forgave me partially early (her head) in this then complained to her confidant about forgiveness for years allowing her to not face it... now she has to. Needs to be fully and with verve (her heart) that is the deal breaker if it does not happen. Her heart needs to forgive me and be willing to be open to the new man I have become over the past four years. She doesn't quite yet know how to relate to me now... its different and she is finding her way through. She likes the changes but knows she can't just fall back into old habits that were easy it takes some actual work on her part for us to remain married.[/QUOTE]


----------



## usmarriedguy

john117 said:


> My 180 was in progress due to BPD and other events actually. BPD's are generally not capable of doing a TAM spec 180 due to the push-pull nature nature of BPD.


Huh? 

You said: "J2 did a complete 180"

What does this have to do with "My 180..." ? 

Frankly John, I am not sure who is causing the most problems in your relationship. I have to guess it is just a bad dynamic of two fairly stubborn people that fell out of love.


----------



## john117

Unless you read it wrong, or I wrote it wrong, I was the one doing the 180. Could you point me to the specific post?

Again, a reminder, BPD's are not known for their 180 skills. BPD is not compatible with detachment. 

I have tracked conversations initiated by either side just for fun and she initiates about 19 of 20. My one contribution is the daily reminder to make coffee properly


----------



## usmarriedguy

john117 said:


> The following months as applications and portfolios were sent and acceptance letters and scholarship offers started rolling in, and after J2 started realizing the talent we were dealing with, J2 did a complete 180 and accepted the fact that not everyone can be a doctor... Three years later J2 is J3's main cheerleader and she firmly believes she (J2) was instrumental in pushing J3 to a highly ranked design program  (read part about save face above)


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> Unless you read it wrong, or I wrote it wrong, I was the one doing the 180. Could you point me to the specific post?
> 
> Again, a reminder, BPD's are not known for their 180 skills. BPD is not compatible with detachment.
> 
> I have tracked conversations initiated by either side just for fun and she initiates about 19 of 20. My one contribution is the daily reminder to make coffee properly


John what is your purpose for doing the 180?

Usually its used to detach enough to leave your spouse... are you planning to divorce her and it seems you are detached so why not just do it.

I guess I don't understand the endgame in your case, can you explain what outcome you want out of this.


----------



## john117

I've explained it before but here it goes.

Acting like nothing is wrong in a marriage and ignoring the white elephant in the middle of the room is no different than collaborating with an enemy against yourself. 

The end game is simple. 3/4. In a couple years med school, grad school, continue saving for retirement, and continue paying for a Saddam palace sized empty nest all converge. We can pay for 3 out of 4. J2 in her infinite magical thinking seems to think we can do 4/4 in order to preserve the Paducah Palace. Not so.

Also the last 5 years have convinced me J2 has neither the skills or the compassion needed to deal with a chronically ill spouse. I'm healthy currently but the risk of any chronic illness down the road after 60 or 65 is too much to ignore. J2 makes a lousy patient and an even lousier caregiver so... I'm not willing to take a loan to go 4 for 4. I am interested in travel and a good time, not paying for Saddam Palace repairs. Maybe I'll elope with a nursing home nurse...

In other words, reasons completely unrelated to intimacy. In 2-3 years Reckoning 2.0 comes calling and unless drastic changes occur rofl that's your exit strategy right there.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> I've explained it before but here it goes.
> 
> Acting like nothing is wrong in a marriage and ignoring the white elephant in the middle of the room is no different than collaborating with an enemy against yourself.
> 
> The end game is simple. 3/4. In a couple years med school, grad school, continue saving for retirement, and continue paying for a Saddam palace sized empty nest all converge. We can pay for 3 out of 4. J2 in her infinite magical thinking seems to think we can do 4/4 in order to preserve the Paducah Palace. Not so.
> 
> Also the last 5 years have convinced me J2 has neither the skills or the compassion needed to deal with a chronically ill spouse. I'm healthy currently but the risk of any chronic illness down the road after 60 or 65 is too much to ignore. J2 makes a lousy patient and an even lousier caregiver so... I'm not willing to take a loan to go 4 for 4. I am interested in travel and a good time, not paying for Saddam Palace repairs. Maybe I'll elope with a nursing home nurse...
> 
> In other words, reasons completely unrelated to intimacy. In 2-3 years Reckoning 2.0 comes calling and unless drastic changes occur rofl that's your exit strategy right there.



Interesting... my day of reckoning is three months away.
WE are either experiencing good Marriage 2.0 or done. Should be interesting we will all know if the plan works by then.
I place the odds at 95% it will. The end to my saga is near.
Kill the root. Regrow. Don't look back. Be thankful.

I think I am good at saying the same thing 20 different ways ..at least my wife thinks so.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Your only hope of success is to stop hiding your fear behind a combination of boastful pronouncements, and flowery convoluted speech. 

If basic affection - is still a total no go for her. If her skin crawls at the thought of your touch, that's an insurmountable hurdle. 

If however, she only avoids affection to avoid sex, then you have a small shot. 

But she won't respect you at all, when your ego protection system is so maxed out that you are willing to pretend she wasn't having a passionate affair. 

Your BEST move is to tell her that, much as you WANT to believe the fairy tale that she and her lover cooked up, it simply isn't true. And that step ONE in moving forward is her acknowledging the affair. If she can't or won't you accept that she doesn't respect you enough to tell the truth, and the marriage is now over. 

And then STFU. You are not good at that. In this case you need to be. 




Trying2figureitout said:


> Interesting... my day of reckoning is three months away.
> WE are either experiencing good Marriage 2.0 or done. Should be interesting we will all know if the plan works by then.
> I place the odds at 95% it will. The end to my saga is near.
> Kill the root. Regrow. Don't look back. Be thankful.
> 
> I think I am good at saying the same thing 20 different ways ..at least my wife thinks so.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Your only hope of success is to stop hiding your fear behind a combination of boastful pronouncements, and flowery convoluted speech.
> 
> If basic affection - is still a total no go for her. If her skin crawls at the thought of your touch, that's an insurmountable hurdle.
> 
> If however, she only avoids affection to avoid sex, then you have a small shot.
> 
> But she won't respect you at all, when your ego protection system is so maxed out that you are willing to pretend she wasn't having a passionate affair.
> 
> Your BEST move is to tell her that, much as you WANT to believe the fairy tale that she and her lover cooked up, it simply isn't true. And that step ONE in moving forward is her acknowledging the affair. If she can't or won't you accept that she doesn't respect you enough to tell the truth, and the marriage is now over.
> 
> And then STFU. You are not good at that. In this case you need to be.


No more talk only action at this point. I handled this correctly. The Plan works.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

lol this is what, the 20th? 30? time we've heard that. Sorry, your plan hasn't worked, doesn't work, won't ever work. MEM is spot on, you can't even get her to acknowledge her affair. You can't even get her to touch you. You just keep on going with your head buried in the sand thinking all that wishful thinking about rainbows, unicorns and marriage 2.0. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

WorkingOnMe said:


> lol this is what, the 20th? 30? time we've heard that. Sorry, your plan hasn't worked, doesn't work, won't ever work. MEM is spot on, you can't even get her to acknowledge her affair. You can't even get her to touch you. You just keep on going with your head buried in the sand thinking all that wishful thinking about rainbows, unicorns and marriage 2.0. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.


I will let you think what you want. You obviously seem to know. I live it.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Trying2figureitout said:


> I will let you think what you want. You obviously seem to know. I live it.


When you've proven me wrong I'll be happy to take it back. In the mean time I have a lot of history backing me up.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

WorkingOnMe said:


> When you've proven me wrong I'll be happy to take it back. In the mean time I have a lot of history backing me up.


Fair enough you can keep your word later.


----------



## xrsm002

I've been married for almost 5 years and have given my wife oral sex several times I love it. She has yet to give me oral. She says because it grosses her out to out put me in her mouth. Ladies what is so disgusting about giving a guy oral?


----------



## treyvion

Trying2figureitout said:


> Fair enough you can keep your word later.


You aren't special and have the same piece of crap situation that many men have got stuck into. Really the only thing that works is getting a new situation. Usually the one who keeps you in that position does it because they really want to. You can't change that and you can't change the role they see you as.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
We are rooting for you. We want you to achieve a good outcome. Unfortunately females sense fear as well as sharks sense blood. 

When M2 gets a calm, firm, consistent and consequence based result to bad behavior, she stops doing whatever it is fairly quickly. When she gets an angry (fear produces anger) or passive response, she keeps repeating the behavior. 

I have experienced numerous examples of both patterns. She is totally consistent. Weakness (fear) brings out her worst. Strength (skilled problem solving combined with the absence of fear/anxiety) brings out her best. 

So - that said. You're big on plans. What is your plan? I worry that your plan consists of giving her the deadline and are now going to wait another 3 months for her to come to her senses. 


[/B]


Trying2figureitout said:


> I will let you think what you want. You obviously seem to know. I live it.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

treyvion said:


> You aren't special and have the same piece of crap situation that many men have got stuck into. Really the only thing that works is getting a new situation. Usually the one who keeps you in that position does it because they really want to. You can't change that and you can't change the role they see you as.


Sorry Treyvion but I have to disagree on one point. A new situation is vital YES but it does not have to be with a different spouse as the only solution. 

I chose long ago to fix the one I had. I will be successful.

It will be a NEW SITUATION


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> We are rooting for you. We want you to achieve a good outcome. Unfortunately females sense fear as well as sharks sense blood.
> 
> When M2 gets a calm, firm, consistent and consequence based result to bad behavior, she stops doing whatever it is fairly quickly. When she gets an angry (fear produces anger) or passive response, she keeps repeating the behavior.
> 
> I have experienced numerous examples of both patterns. She is totally consistent. Weakness (fear) brings out her worst. Strength (skilled problem solving combined with the absence of fear/anxiety) brings out her best.
> 
> So - that said. You're big on plans. What is your plan? I worry that your plan consists of giving her the deadline and are now going to wait another 3 months for her to come to her senses.
> 
> 
> [/B]


I handled it very differently than others...uniquely. I will achieve a different and very specific outcome that others before me have not. That is not to say my way is superior , for me it was the best way. I designed it this way. I was able to kill the root (her resentment flaw) and both worked on the marriage while waiting for this . Now we can regrow and start over learning key relationship lessons along the way. I may still FAIL I don't discount failure but I believe I will be very successful I believe I will validate my plan fully. It took a while but I noticed change early, like carving a canyon...slow and steady with major floods once in a while. In the end you have a new canyon..permanent change on both sides. It will likely take me 4 and a half years to turn my marriage around fully. I was six months off my original timing... not bad considering I was making it up as I went along and had such a tough bullheaded spouse (The OM words..I agree with his assessment).

It can be done. If my spouse wasn't so good and an amazingly fit knockout I agree ditch them (this stuff is mentally hard)... she was worth my best effort. I'm going to be a very happy guy for putting all this work in its not just her looks but that certainly helps and the prize at the end of all of this. Its self sustainable no going back now. WE are moving on...and I married younger and happier. Really was an amazing process to witness. Total transformation...better us.


----------



## LongWalk

T2,

You once wrote on your thread:



> There was a period of time i went to the gym with her after her injury... it wasn't fun. She is one of those 'gym' people that compare their workout to yours. She is a daily gym rat.
> 
> I would work out hard for say 45 minutes but she'd want to go longer so i'd sit afterwards and wait for her to finish... reading the paper or something.
> 
> Then get an earful about how her workout was better.
> 
> Even though i was maxing out all the machines and doing it more intensely but albeit in a shorter time frame.
> 
> I am not a 'gym' guy, I like to workout and get out its not my life... so for me its work 45 minutes is more than enough. I got tired of the comments from her so I stopped going. I'm in decent shape without the gym.


Gymrats place a huge value on body appearance. She will more likely want to have sex with you if you are in shape. PM Machiavelli to get workout program. Doing 45 minutes is something he says can work. I think you need to get into the endorphine addiction.

Your wife wants a hard body. Give it to her.

Do not train with her. That is so beta. It's like asked her to help you build muscle. Build it yourself.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

LongWalk said:


> T2,
> 
> You once wrote on your thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Gymrats place a huge value on body appearance. She will more likely want to have sex with you if you are in shape. PM Machiavelli to get workout program. Doing 45 minutes is something he says can work. I think you need to get into the endorphine addiction.
> 
> Your wife wants a hard body. Give it to her.
> 
> Do not train with her. That is so beta. It's like asked her to help you build muscle. Build it yourself.


I'm in shape and don't need a gym workout I do other stuff my wife is a good healthy cook. This is not about me its about her.

I have no problem attracting other women.

See I have a problem with doing stuff "YOU THINK" may impress your spouse. I am of the opinion you do what you want and your spouse either accepts that or doesn't. I do whats right for me which is good enough for any spouse.


----------



## LongWalk

Female desire is based on factors. Physical appearance is a big one. You never hear about star athletes going on to talk shows and crying because their wives deny them sex.


----------



## treyvion

Trying2figureitout said:


> Sorry Treyvion but I have to disagree on one point. A new situation is vital YES but it does not have to be with a different spouse as the only solution.
> 
> I chose long ago to fix the one I had. I will be successful.
> 
> It will be a NEW SITUATION


Well how are you going to fix her psychology? Restore it to one who wants to be committed and faithful as well as treat you like gold?

I do know something that works, and it works in the single dating world and it works in this situation as well.

These wayward spouses elevate themself off of you so that they end up looking down on you. Somehow they position themself and the ones they date in a class above you. 

As long as you are paying bills and being supportive, you support the position.

The thing that really works is moving on with your life, being successful and very happy with out them. They really want you back after you have went along, and they can see that your doing well and you even have a new girlfriend who is attractive and very into you.

At this point the wayward will try to come back and reclaim "what was theirs". They might not have healed from their cheating ways to hold a man like you at that point though.

And you will be successful with or without her. Don't be dependant on fixing her.

If you've moved on and she's corrected herself and learned the error of her ways you may later take her on as a girlfriend, but if she has not changed you might not want that kind of a woman for a girlfriend.

Your plan as you see it does not take into account the things that work in this world, or uncomfortable and painful things and "games" that really do work in these situations. You kinda put your mind in a box with respect to what you are willing to do to make it work.


----------



## treyvion

LongWalk said:


> Female desire is based on factors. Physical appearance is a big one. You never hear about star athletes going on to talk shows and crying because their wives deny them sex.


They have physical appearance but also a huge amount of social validation. Women love social validation.


----------



## treyvion

Trying2figureitout said:


> I'm in shape and don't need a gym workout I do other stuff my wife is a good healthy cook. This is not about me its about her.
> 
> I have no problem attracting other women.
> 
> See I have a problem with doing stuff "YOU THINK" may impress your spouse. I am of the opinion you do what you want and your spouse either accepts that or doesn't. I do whats right for me which is good enough for any spouse.


Dude, if you look so good, go screw some other women. And make her know about it. It will be good for your esteem, but it also works this competitive dynamic in women that might make her straighten up real quickly.

And even if it doesn't straighten her up, she will be like "how dare you?", and you can be like "well I got tired of waiting around for you, what do you expect?"


----------



## treyvion

LongWalk said:


> Female desire is based on factors. Physical appearance is a big one. You never hear about star athletes going on to talk shows and crying because their wives deny them sex.


Now you got me trying to remember which athelete was being starved by his wife or cheated on, etc... There are certainly some.


----------



## treyvion

Trying2figureitout said:


> I handled it very differently than others...uniquely. I will achieve a different and very specific outcome that others before me have not. That is not to say my way is superior , for me it was the best way. I designed it this way. I was able to kill the root (her resentment flaw) and both worked on the marriage while waiting for this . Now we can regrow and start over learning key relationship lessons along the way. I may still FAIL I don't discount failure but I believe I will be very successful I believe I will validate my plan fully. It took a while but I noticed change early, like carving a canyon...slow and steady with major floods once in a while. In the end you have a new canyon..permanent change on both sides. It will likely take me 4 and a half years to turn my marriage around fully. I was six months off my original timing... not bad considering I was making it up as I went along and had such a tough bullheaded spouse (The OM words..I agree with his assessment).
> 
> It can be done. If my spouse wasn't so good and an amazingly fit knockout I agree ditch them (this stuff is mentally hard)... she was worth my best effort. I'm going to be a very happy guy for putting all this work in its not just her looks but that certainly helps and the prize at the end of all of this. Its self sustainable no going back now. WE are moving on...and I married younger and happier. Really was an amazing process to witness. Total transformation...better us.


You want to deal with a bull headed spouse? Those are the ones who only listen to those who agree with them. Likely their relation partner gets traingulated and stuck into the "stupid" chair.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

treyvion said:


> Dude, if you look so good, go screw some other women. And make her know about it. It will be good for your esteem, but it also works this competitive dynamic in women that might make her straighten up real quickly.
> 
> And even if it doesn't straighten her up, she will be like "how dare you?", and you can be like "well I got tired of waiting around for you, what do you expect?"


I don't need to screw other women. I need to screw my wife a lot and in different ways with openness to variety. This is authentic internal change not some shoddy fix.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

treyvion said:


> Well how are you going to fix her psychology? Restore it to one who wants to be committed and faithful as well as treat you like gold?
> 
> I do know something that works, and it works in the single dating world and it works in this situation as well.
> 
> These wayward spouses elevate themself off of you so that they end up looking down on you. Somehow they position themself and the ones they date in a class above you.
> 
> As long as you are paying bills and being supportive, you support the position.
> 
> The thing that really works is moving on with your life, being successful and very happy with out them. They really want you back after you have went along, and they can see that your doing well and you even have a new girlfriend who is attractive and very into you.
> 
> At this point the wayward will try to come back and reclaim "what was theirs". They might not have healed from their cheating ways to hold a man like you at that point though.
> 
> And you will be successful with or without her. Don't be dependant on fixing her.
> 
> If you've moved on and she's corrected herself and learned the error of her ways you may later take her on as a girlfriend, but if she has not changed you might not want that kind of a woman for a girlfriend.
> 
> Your plan as you see it does not take into account the things that work in this world, or uncomfortable and painful things and "games" that really do work in these situations. You kinda put your mind in a box with respect to what you are willing to do to make it work.


There are many paths to success...and many times more to failure.
Bottom line there is no single solution.


----------



## john117

LongWalk said:


> Female desire is based on factors. Physical appearance is a big one. You never hear about star athletes going on to talk shows and crying because their wives deny them sex.



Money and lifestyle are far more desirable to the kind of woman that goes for a relationship with a star than looks.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tim Duncan

Famously-boring and corny with a red squiggly hairline, it’s no shocker that his dirty swirly wife cheated during their 12-year marriage.

- See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip

Dwyane Wade

The “fierce” fashionisto/NBA superstar married a psychotic colored contact-wearing wacko (Siovaughn Funches) who had mental breakdowns, violent tantrums and eventually cheated during their wildly-dysfunctional marriage.

- See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip

Kobe Bryant

Rumors have swirled about professional basketball wife Vanessa Bryant cheating on Kobe with fame-thirsty filthball AP.9. Plenty of folks believe he DID tell the truth about lowdown dirty Coco which makes his claims of smashing reformed video ho Vanessa Bryant believable.

- See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip

Shaquille O’Neal

The mush-moufed NBA legend admitted to “respectfully” cheating on ex-wife/basketball wife whisperer Shaunie but cited HER (alleged) filthy cheating exploits as one of the main reasons for their divorce.

- See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip

Steve Nash

The 2-time NBA MVP-turned-brokedown scrub divorced his slimy ex-wife Alejandra Amarilla days after she gave birth to a child that (reportedly) was too swirly to be his. The first alleged father was former Suns teammate Leandro Barbosa and later Jason Richardson—a key Suns player who was “mysteriously” traded to the Magic mid-season.

Antoine Walker

Ex-basketball/football wife Evelyn Lozada almost married the disgraced NBA star for love money before he blew all $110 million of it. Both cheated on each other but stories of Evelyn’s alleged teammate-hopping were far more scandalous.

- See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip

Tony Parker

Eva Longoria taught the cornball Frenchman how to make love and he scurried off with other women (including his own teammates’ wife) before their divorce. At the time, she was a victim until rumors of her creeping with Grade A dirtbag Lance Armstrong slithered into the media

- See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip

Wives can cheat on anyone so can husbands. Doesn't matter what you look like or how much you make. That is why there is no single solution.


----------



## treyvion

Trying2figureitout said:


> Tim Duncan
> 
> Famously-boring and corny with a red squiggly hairline, it’s no shocker that his dirty swirly wife cheated during their 12-year marriage.
> 
> - See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip
> 
> Dwyane Wade
> 
> The “fierce” fashionisto/NBA superstar married a psychotic colored contact-wearing wacko (Siovaughn Funches) who had mental breakdowns, violent tantrums and eventually cheated during their wildly-dysfunctional marriage.
> 
> - See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip
> 
> Kobe Bryant
> 
> Rumors have swirled about professional basketball wife Vanessa Bryant cheating on Kobe with fame-thirsty filthball AP.9. Plenty of folks believe he DID tell the truth about lowdown dirty Coco which makes his claims of smashing reformed video ho Vanessa Bryant believable.
> 
> - See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip
> 
> Shaquille O’Neal
> 
> The mush-moufed NBA legend admitted to “respectfully” cheating on ex-wife/basketball wife whisperer Shaunie but cited HER (alleged) filthy cheating exploits as one of the main reasons for their divorce.
> 
> - See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip
> 
> Steve Nash
> 
> The 2-time NBA MVP-turned-brokedown scrub divorced his slimy ex-wife Alejandra Amarilla days after she gave birth to a child that (reportedly) was too swirly to be his. The first alleged father was former Suns teammate Leandro Barbosa and later Jason Richardson—a key Suns player who was “mysteriously” traded to the Magic mid-season.
> 
> Antoine Walker
> 
> Ex-basketball/football wife Evelyn Lozada almost married the disgraced NBA star for love money before he blew all $110 million of it. Both cheated on each other but stories of Evelyn’s alleged teammate-hopping were far more scandalous.
> 
> - See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip
> 
> Tony Parker
> 
> Eva Longoria taught the cornball Frenchman how to make love and he scurried off with other women (including his own teammates’ wife) before their divorce. At the time, she was a victim until rumors of her creeping with Grade A dirtbag Lance Armstrong slithered into the media
> 
> - See more at: Filthy Baller Wives: 8 NBA Stars Who Were Cheated On | Bossip
> 
> Wives can cheat on anyone so can husbands. Doesn't matter what you look like or how much you make. That is why there is no single solution.


T2! Well you have produced something interesting on this thread after all!

I heard about the Steve Nash one, that he was a cheater, but his wife was even worse than him, giving him the doubt that one of his kids isn't his. I didn't know the affair partners were other Suns. Such disrespect.

I remember about Shaq's wife with the personal trainer, and then his rebuttal about he cheated but did it respectfully. Shaq's business was all about in the strip club community. I remember that, he was like a homerun these girls could hit, and they would be gifted up and the such and they had a few games they would play with him.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

treyvion said:


> T2! Well you have produced something interesting on this thread after all!
> 
> I heard about the Steve Nash one, that he was a cheater, but his wife was even worse than him, giving him the doubt that one of his kids isn't his. I didn't know the affair partners were other Suns. Such disrespect.
> 
> I remember about Shaq's wife with the personal trainer, and then his rebuttal about he cheated but did it respectfully. Shaq's business was all about in the strip club community. I remember that, he was like a homerun these girls could hit, and they would be gifted up and the such and they had a few games they would play with him.


Oh you under sell me everything I post is "interesting"


----------



## treyvion

Trying2figureitout said:


> Oh you under sell me everything I post is "interesting"


Well "The Plan" has lost traction. 

Your repeating the same things. Also you aren't willing to take risks or seriously upset her balance, like I said "cheat on her". Things that aren't nice, moral or anything, but really do adjust someone psychology with a quickness. You can't hit her upside the head or hold a gun to a head, but there are alot of other things you can do.

I'd like to hear some weekly exploits with some male based "successes". Even if you were banging a couple of hot babes and seriously enjoying your days.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

treyvion said:


> Well "The Plan" has lost traction.
> 
> Your repeating the same things. Also you aren't willing to take risks or seriously upset her balance, like I said "cheat on her". Things that aren't nice, moral or anything, but really do adjust someone psychology with a quickness. You can't hit her upside the head or hold a gun to a head, but there are alot of other things you can do.
> 
> I'd like to hear some weekly exploits with some male based "successes". Even if you were banging a couple of hot babes and seriously enjoying your days.


The plan ended at year four ... it put in place the events of today forward. I'm good.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

LongWalk said:


> Female desire is based on factors. Physical appearance is a big one. You never hear about star athletes going on to talk shows and crying because their wives deny them sex.



Wasn't that Tiger Woods problem and reason for cheating?


----------



## treyvion

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wasn't that Tiger Woods problem and reason for cheating?


Tiger Woods wife was starving him?


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Based on your response below, it sounds like she still has an aversion to basic affection with you. 

I am confident that her resentment story was just a tool she used to keep your hands off her. 

The absence of resentment does not equal the presence of respect. 

I don't know any women who could respect a man who has allowed her to do, what you have allowed your W to do. 




Trying2figureitout said:


> I handled it very differently than others...uniquely. I will achieve a different and very specific outcome that others before me have not. That is not to say my way is superior , for me it was the best way. I designed it this way. I was able to kill the root (her resentment flaw) and both worked on the marriage while waiting for this . Now we can regrow and start over learning key relationship lessons along the way. I may still FAIL I don't discount failure but I believe I will be very successful I believe I will validate my plan fully. It took a while but I noticed change early, like carving a canyon...slow and steady with major floods once in a while. In the end you have a new canyon..permanent change on both sides. It will likely take me 4 and a half years to turn my marriage around fully. I was six months off my original timing... not bad considering I was making it up as I went along and had such a tough bullheaded spouse (The OM words..I agree with his assessment).
> 
> It can be done. If my spouse wasn't so good and an amazingly fit knockout I agree ditch them (this stuff is mentally hard)... she was worth my best effort. I'm going to be a very happy guy for putting all this work in its not just her looks but that certainly helps and the prize at the end of all of this. Its self sustainable no going back now. WE are moving on...and I married younger and happier. Really was an amazing process to witness. Total transformation...better us.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Based on your response below, it sounds like she still has an aversion to basic affection with you.
> 
> I am confident that her resentment story was just a tool she used to keep your hands off her.
> 
> The absence of resentment does not equal the presence of respect.
> 
> I don't know any women who could respect a man who has allowed her to do, what you have allowed your W to do.


Her resentment tendencies are well documented and occurred prior to me.

You would be surprised.


----------



## BostonBruins32

T2, with all do respect. I wonder if you're just yanking our chain.

You can't really believe everything you say about your wife, can you? Somehow you manage to have virtually no skeptisism with regards to her intentions or the health of her perspective on the marriage.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> T2, with all do respect. I wonder if you're just yanking our chain.
> 
> You can't really believe everything you say about your wife, can you? Somehow you manage to have virtually no skeptisism with regards to her intentions or the health of her perspective on the marriage.


BB why would I yank your or anyone's chain? I do believe my wife because her story matched up perfectly with the OM's both of which I basically interrogated for over an hour each and there is no way they could match up a lie that long. Everything was spot on consistent.

I think where people are skeptical is I tell you exactly the way it is in my life. I don't filter it you all see it from my perspective and things I heard from the other parties. This is real and meant as a help for others. I have no other agenda than to help men in sexless marriages that often occur at year 15-18 there is a certain way of handling that. Nothing good was out there when I started this journey. At least I proved my own from scratch concept so far.

My wife has NEVER sought divorce, she also stated she married me for life and is trying. Her actions do show a change in behavior. Her trying unfortunately meant seeking help with OM and falling in love with him in a one sides fashion. She now needs to try in a healthy way..and she is. She is addressing any lingering resentment in a healthy way by connecting with me and we will be "great" in less than three months.

I think some people just avoid any real pain, in her case the OM was a sympathetic ear to cry on an escape from the "drama" otherwise known as "the plan" and an emotional support person . During those years she had two men daily on her mind she was obviously divided and the other relationship took work to maintain it was work and intoxicating. 

I had her make a choice... I am left as her ONLY choice...as long as she participates in our marriage and all it entails. 
My wife wants marriage, she confirmed what I believe the affair was, which was a friendship that she took to an inappropriate status. I am not concerned about her affair..that chapter is over.

I will be successful in turning my marriage around fully.... or divorce her those are the only two choices. Odds at 96% we turn this completely around. In a large part due to the plan that I ran for four years. I am going to be about six months past my initial goal when all is done.

I will let you know down the road if it was worth the effort...already we are much better than before rest will be gravy.


----------



## john117

T2 it only makes sense to commit with a plan if consistent, solid and measurable progress is made - this is near reconciliation territory.

The way you measure progress is simple - by pushing the envelope of what was acceptable or expected behavior at the subconscious level and measuring expected responses. Very simple stuff, not Taj Mahal level transformations overnight.

If a simple and trivial behavior or subject of discussion was verboten before and now it's not, that's progress. There may be regressions here and there but the trend is your friend. 

As you make progress you set "gates" which require "gate reviews" with very specific criteria for success. If a gate is not passed you don't proceed.

The above is not anything magic, just vanilla fare science.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> T2 it only makes sense to commit with a plan if consistent, solid and measurable progress is made - this is near reconciliation territory.
> 
> The way you measure progress is simple - by pushing the envelope of what was acceptable or expected behavior at the subconscious level and measuring expected responses. Very simple stuff, not Taj Mahal level transformations overnight.
> 
> If a simple and trivial behavior or subject of discussion was verboten before and now it's not, that's progress. There may be regressions here and there but the trend is your friend.
> 
> As you make progress you set "gates" which require "gate reviews" with very specific criteria for success. If a gate is not passed you don't proceed.
> 
> The above is not anything magic, just vanilla fare science.


Exactly...that is what my plan did.

I realized initially through research there were no good options (only three worth anything were Calle Zorro, MMSL and HNHN" ) no perfect one those plus my mentor's input after year 1 created the plan as I went, and the BEST natural fixes were at year 3,4,5...and VERY VERY RARE. Otherwise they were ACCEPTANCE and a light bulb at years (GettingIt) 10,15,20. Or misery/divorce.

I wanted the good fix and set out to ensure it...I committed four years to this within 3 months of ILYNILWY.


I had measurable progress a year into it, at year 2 I thought we were closer, at year 3, more authentic change, now year 4+ minus OM this is it. 96% chance of total success and climbing everyday.

I have built in protective gates to prevent a fall back to old behaviors. That marriage is over.

I learned long ago there is NO QUICK FIX, only a total permanent fix over time or misery/divorce.

I chose the over time method... and had a four year plan with flash points and a consistent message always. Last four months were reactive to the current situation. No regrets at all as to how I handled it. SEX is the very last domino to fall and only after OM removal.

This stuff is not for the faint of heart... good things take work and time. Now I can relax so can she.


----------



## BostonBruins32

"Mr. [email protected], what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> "Mr. [email protected], what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "


:rofl:

Excellent!


----------



## Catherine602

BostonBruins32 said:


> "Mr. [email protected], what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "


:rofl::lol:

This is soooooo very funny.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> "Mr. [email protected], what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "


Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.


----------



## MEM2020

This masterful plan again promises a nearby end 
to the ever lengthening winter of your discontent. 

Perhaps the genius of this plan, lies solely and ever in the future.




Trying2figureitout said:


> Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.


----------



## john117

Now you know why we science researchers make the big dollars 

Goals must be attainable and measurable. Simply having goals is not enough. Consider the case of one of my experiments. Last December the TAM think tank suggested I switch out of my grumpy cat mode and into an alter ego personality of a caring and loving husband :rofl: Tried it for 6-8 weeks. Tracked a few parameters from the obvious to the non obvious.

Well, the result was mixed at best and relatively worthless in general.. We managed to have one or two moments where her old self came back after we spent several hours discussing Pride and Prejudice. So engagement improved a bit - once - the quality of food improved as I started cooking, intimacy improved a bit, but not to levels that would pass any rational cost benefit analysis. No sustainable desire for change on her behalf, as far as she knows that's all the SLA she signed up for.

This is standard stimulus response psychology theory stuff done to a larger scale. You provide a stimulus and measure the response. Compare the cost of the stimulus with the benefit of the response, etc.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Trying2figureitout said:


> Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.



Lol


----------



## BostonBruins32

no glorious updates.

wife feeling stressed about child care for our daughter and about some pressures at work. Both vented to me when i got home from work. We took a family walk in the park after dinner. She was fiddling around on her phone, I think trying to research child care people in the area (one prospect we thought was good just bailed). Got home, we got child to bed. Wife remained on her ipad for another 2-3 hours, no conversation while hanging out on couch. I went to bed, she came to bed 5 minutes later. 

She was crying in bed. I asked what was wrong. "everything". I know the child care issue was bothering her and she said earlier that she was almost in tears at work due to some pressure from a mgr there. She takes her part time job too serious, and lets it get to heart. I've seen this for a while now. She also seems to handle heavy pressure via breaking down a little. anyways, after she said "everything". I asked her if there was anything regarding us, she said no. I left it there consoled her, told her everything will work out and told her to please let me know if she needs any help working through these stresses. 

2 things here:
-she had a bad day, her words and her tears. Thinking about it this morning on my drive in, I would be lying if her answer "everything" didnt make me slightly uneasy. 
-her ipad/phone use seems to be creeping back up. Shes on phone for 90% of car ride fiddling around on facebook or online. Shes on Ipad for probably 2 hours a night when we're hanging out on couch. Why does B1 care? I think its a trigger that I need to chill out on. I saw heavy ipad/phone usage during the months leading up to her "need space". She would be on ipad until 2am, long after I went to bed. Again, I have no proof of EA or anything, but there was always just enough password protection and late night online browsing to make me uncomfortable. 

I dont know what the point of this post is. Probably venting or working through some things that are triggers.


----------



## jld

Sorry, BB, I haven't kept up lately. So your wife is working now? She was a SAHM before, right?

Are you sure you don't want to just be honest and open with her? Just insist that you two talk, and that she put her heart out there? Active listening, with sincerity from you, could do that. Are you familiar with active listening?

That "everything" response doesn't sound good to me, either. Do you really want everything to fall apart?

I think if she saw real transparency from you, that could help her trust you. Do you really have anything to lose? Don't you want to be able to just be yourself with your life partner?

I just don't think all these techniques are going to work long term, especially if they don't come from your heart.

I would just really encourage you to share your heart with your wife, to really let her see you.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> no glorious updates.
> 
> wife feeling stressed about child care for our daughter and about some pressures at work. Both vented to me when i got home from work. We took a family walk in the park after dinner. She was fiddling around on her phone, I think trying to research child care people in the area (one prospect we thought was good just bailed). Got home, we got child to bed. Wife remained on her ipad for another 2-3 hours, no conversation while hanging out on couch. I went to bed, she came to bed 5 minutes later.
> 
> She was crying in bed. I asked what was wrong. "everything". I know the child care issue was bothering her and she said earlier that she was almost in tears at work due to some pressure from a mgr there. She takes her part time job too serious, and lets it get to heart. I've seen this for a while now. She also seems to handle heavy pressure via breaking down a little. anyways, after she said "everything". I asked her if there was anything regarding us, she said no. I left it there consoled her, told her everything will work out and told her to please let me know if she needs any help working through these stresses.
> 
> 2 things here:
> -she had a bad day, her words and her tears. Thinking about it this morning on my drive in, I would be lying if her answer "everything" didnt make me slightly uneasy.
> -her ipad/phone use seems to be creeping back up. Shes on phone for 90% of car ride fiddling around on facebook or online. Shes on Ipad for probably 2 hours a night when we're hanging out on couch. Why does B1 care? I think its a trigger that I need to chill out on. I saw heavy ipad/phone usage during the months leading up to her "need space". She would be on ipad until 2am, long after I went to bed. Again, I have no proof of EA or anything, but there was always just enough password protection and late night online browsing to make me uncomfortable.
> 
> I don't know what the point of this post is. Probably venting or working through some things that are triggers.


She hates DRAMA its a turn off.

Seriously the best thing might be to institute like I did a six month abstinence policy at this point (lead her out of this mess)....and tell her you just want to enjoy and reconnect with her. Just say I know its something I harped on I just want to shift our focus and let you get to know me again and I'll do the same....then we can both relax some.

My wife thought it was a GREAT idea... her attitude changed 180 positive and stayed there after

Remember how I said at year 2 I sensed a change...that was the impetus.

One thing it does do...is sets a hard edge on the old and new marriage
Do something DIFFERENT

That was actually a key part of the plan. I had an amazing mental turn around happen by my wife during and after that and it took a lot mentally off my wife's plate. Still took another two years after but that showed her I care and made sex less of an issue. All subsequent conversions had a more matter of fact tone when sex came up also she would listen more after. We didn't have as much conversational drama after.

What you really need is a proper environment to bring sex back into the marriage separated from prior drama.

BTW the abstinence period is a valid tool I came across in my research when sex is an issue.

BB sex you want is not there now... make use of other things you can do to work on other parts of the marriage..like your wife's brain.

Don't waste this opportunity to improve things....your wife is spent mentally

Start compiling things in you back pocket you can point to.

So eventually she sees its ALL HER


----------



## BostonBruins32

JLD,

appreciate the feedback. I have shared exactly how I feel a few times. I'm trying to take the "everything" with a grain of salt given the day she had. 

I feel like I've been pretty honest with her about what I expect and how I feel. I've also seeked feedback from her on her feelings. Sort of an old song and dance. Not taht you need to read the whole thread, but through much of the thread I've detailed these sincere talks. Asking her how she feels monthly or weekly doesnt do much good. To be very honest, I think much of these feelings I have are proof that I'm not completely "over" the time away/space thing that took place 6 months ago. I shared this sentiment with her a month or two ago, just explaining that it will take some time for me to trust that she is not going to need space again or want to separate out of the blue.

I am also sure that the MEM is going to suggest that her wanting another child and thinking I don't could be part of the "everything" tears last night. Maybe. I havent clearly said I do not want more children until XYZ. This conversation has not taken place because I havent really seen the right door opening for it. This talk is hard to have when things for the most part have been improving, so its like throwing a wet blanket on a positive vibe fire. 

Again, she has an extreme aversion to serious talks. This aversion is frustrating because it lends itself to another "out of nowhere" bubble that bursts driving her to want to leave, for a week or forever. I'm not so much worried about her wanting to separate someday, as I am worried about her letting a bubble grow again for 3-4 years. I hate letting something get bad without fixing it or acting on it NOW.


----------



## jld

Well, you know her and yourself and your situation best. I guess I just couldn't live under a lack of clear and open communication. I have a hard time with uncertainty, and could not feel safe with that in a life partner. 

I hear that you are waiting for the right timing, and you don't want to give up the more regular sex you are getting. I hear that, but I guess to me, if there were emotional clarity, there could be genuine emotional connection, and then there would be fantastic, consistent physical connection.

These things that you come to the board to talk about, like how you feel about her attitude towards money (remembering that thread from last month), do you eventually go and talk to her about those things? Just honestly and openly? 

I think there is so much power in transparency, BB. We have to be willing to be vulnerable to be transparent, and we could get really hurt. But it is how we deepen relationships. And don't we all want deep connections with our partner?

I would encourage you to believe in yourself. Just really believe in yourself. Be honest with yourself, BB. Take a look at your own shortcomings. Consider admitting them to her. Nothing builds trust in a person like hearing gut level honesty from them.

And when you are honest about your shortcomings, you can start to correct them. People don't really become secure until they admit how insecure they are. And we all have our insecurities.

Just some thoughts, BB. All the best.


----------



## LongWalk

T2,

Thank you for the NBA cheating low-down.

Still, can't understand your philosophy to be honest.


----------



## john117

Transparency assumes people can sort out what bothers them and address only that. I have not seen much of that with my wife and that makes things ungood.

Compartmentalization is the key... Otherwise any issue creates a siege mentality and that's all she wrote.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

LongWalk said:


> T2,
> 
> Thank you for the NBA cheating low-down.
> 
> Still, can't understand your philosophy to be honest.


My philosophy...make the sexless period a *healing period* and a place NEITHER ever wants to go again...fix everything but sex during that period.

OLD----sexless/healing---NEW

Simple...and most importantly it works

Face it you are already in a hole... use the hole to YOUR ADVANTAGE you no longer fear your wife...what is she going to do ? Not have sex with you? That's your reality now. Plus it adds intrigue WTF is he doing?

My wife will NEVER leave me... because I am her best option.


I did not waste a minute...becoming my wife's best option and correcting dynamics/communication

KISS..Keep it simple stupid


----------



## john117

It works to the extent of coming back to her original SLA. If that is not acceptable then what?


----------



## Tasorundo

T2, so you are having sex now? If not, then stop saying it works.

Once it works, then you can say it works.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tasorundo said:


> T2, so you are having sex now? If not, then stop saying it works.
> 
> Once it works, then you can say it works.


I will post the rest of the plan to my blog after a history of it working sexually to my satisfaction over months.

For now I give snippets of advice as I have a ways to go to validate its effectiveness.
It works...there is more to the big picture than sex that I already have enough to go on.

You know PKI was a theory to replace proprietary military encryption (a necessity of today's modern Internet)...it was a theory proven well before the release of the final code no one involved in it thought it wouldn't work becuse of the soundness of the theory.... they all knew it would work because it was theoretically sound...and it did flawlessly once released.

PKI is the basis of modern encryption and has yet to go away.

THE PLAN is theoretically sound and will work. Just like PKI.

When I see an opportunity to help at a certain stage like OP's I do.


----------



## Tasorundo

You can say it is working all day long. However, until it does, you cannot not say, honestly, that it works.

You can say it appears to be working, or I have hope that it will work. But it doesn't 'work'. It is not proven, there is nothing other than your opinion that it is working.

Maybe you should change your signature to include a statement like "This advice comes from a guy who has put a 5 year plan together for having sex again."


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> It works to the extent of coming back to her original SLA. If that is not acceptable then what?


New marriage or divorce those are the only two options.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tasorundo said:


> You can say it is working all day long. However, until it does, you cannot not say, honestly, that it works.
> 
> You can say it appears to be working, or I have hope that it will work. But it doesn't 'work'. It is not proven, there is nothing other than your opinion that it is working.
> 
> Maybe you should change your signature to include a statement like "This advice comes from a guy who has put a 5 year plan together for having sex again."



Face it I could sell you a bridge and you have no proof. I am documenting reality and a possible path forward. 

Does any of what I say seem invalid? I ask you to pick apart the plan and you will find you cannot.

Face it there are no good fixes...mine does take time as I had a goal and set the bar high. I wanted it all. Its easy to divorce if this is all to hard then divorce.


----------



## Tasorundo

What does the PKI story have to do with this? There are not panels of experts extoling the greatness of your plan, in fact, it is you against everyone else here. There are no similarities between a group of people formulating a sound theory for testable hypothesis and your plan.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tasorundo said:


> What does the PKI story have to do with this? There are not panels of experts extoling the greatness of your plan, in fact, it is you against everyone else here. There are no similarities between a group of people formulating a sound theory for testable hypothesis and your plan.


You will see. For now it is what it is. All I have to satisfy is me.


----------



## Tasorundo

Has anyone seen the whole 'plan'? Or do we just get to look at the little bit you posted on the blog?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tasorundo said:


> Has anyone seen the whole 'plan'? Or do we just get to look at the little bit you posted on the blog?


The whole plan has NOT been posted..I gave up trying to do so here until it worked fully..to many hecklers hence the blog.

The blog is the theory behind a sexless marriage as I see it.


----------



## Tasorundo

There is a key role of a Father that I don't see on your blog. Enforcing accountability.

That is where everyone disagrees with you. Ultimately, your plan is not much different than anything else, it just takes years instead of weeks. That is because you don't enforce boundaries, hold her accountable, and act like a father.


----------



## NeverAgain12

Trying2figureitout said:


> You will see. For now it is what it is. *All I have to satisfy is me*.


See bolded part. If you really mean that then stop flooding this site with all this plan BS. Four years of this crap is enough. Do everyone a favor and stop posting advice on unwitting members until you are banging your wife several times a week for several months.

Sorry to be mean spirited but this is beyond painful.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tasorundo said:


> There is a key role of a Father that I don't see on your blog. Enforcing accountability.
> 
> That is where everyone disagrees with you. Ultimately, your plan is not much different than anything else, it just takes years instead of weeks. That is because you don't enforce boundaries, hold her accountable, and act like a father.


I disagree. It is different and designed to take years by design again based on my own extensive research, I read everything I could find on sexless marriage and was disappointed...there had to be a solution.

The problem is NOT SEX its EMOTIONS and those take a while to turn.

Where are ALL the success stories especially those that turn in short order???? A: rare
Because its all EMOTIONS..they do not change on a dime
I ensured success over time.

Otherwise do MMSL and HNHN and 180 and take your chances...since those tools are so popular here... I see parts of them that are OK.... I also see harm

There is no quick fix!


----------



## Tasorundo

That's great for you, just include that in your advice.

You can make a sig line with a changing date that is today's plus 5 years.

Then say, "Listen to me and you might have sex in 2019!"


----------



## NeverAgain12

Tasorundo said:


> Then say, "Listen to me and you might have sex in 2019!"


LOL!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

NeverAgain12 said:


> See bolded part. If you really mean that then stop flooding this site with all this plan BS. Four years of this crap is enough. Do everyone a favor and stop posting advice on unwitting members until you are banging your wife several times a week for several months.
> 
> Sorry to be mean spirited but this is beyond painful.


Sorry for your pain. Sorry you don't understand and good luck.


----------



## Tasorundo

No two situations are the same. Every single focused plan has flaws, they all need to be tweaked to the people involved.

You could really use some manning up, especially if you want to be a strong, fatherly figure that commands respect.

Here is the thing, leaders lead. If you are leading, people follow. If no one is following you, you are not a leader.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tasorundo said:


> No two situations are the same. Every single focused plan has flaws, they all need to be tweaked to the people involved.
> 
> You could really use some manning up, especially if you want to be a strong, fatherly figure that commands respect.
> 
> Here is the thing, leaders lead. If you are leading, people follow. If no one is following you, you are not a leader.


Yup manning up works...roll eyes.

Same as my "changing the marital dynamics" over time.

Its a woman you all are dealing with....and your wife in most cases.... all bets are off

She knows you.

I disagree that all situations are different...they actually are eerily similar at the core...emotions.

I understand your pain. I understand the frustration. Its not fair is it?

Should just be a simple conversation right?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

T2, is it true that you and your wife sat in the pumpkin patch all night last October 31 waiting for the Great Pumpkin?


----------



## NeverAgain12

Trying2figureitout said:


> Yup manning up works...roll eyes.
> 
> Same as my "changing the marital dynamics" over time.
> 
> Its a woman you all are dealing with


If manning up by setting boundaries, communicating them well, and enforcing them, while at the same time meeting all her needs, doesn't work then she doesn't respect you or love you anymore.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

NeverAgain12 said:


> If manning up by setting boundaries, communicating them well, and enforcing them, while at the same time meeting all her needs, doesn't work then she doesn't respect you or love you anymore.


Sure give it a few weeks and then divorce her..roll eyes
Cut bait move on...and take your chances with another one


----------



## Tasorundo

T2, you can roll your eyes all you want. I had wonderfully orgasmic sex with my wife last night after a conversation about our marriage.

What did you do?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tasorundo said:


> T2, you can roll your eyes all you want. I had wonderfully orgasmic sex with my wife last night after a conversation about our marriage.
> 
> What did you do?


Great why are you here? Obviously you and her are good.

And why did she have sex? Was it your conversation to satiate YOU? Or was it her internally wanting you?

Seems to me it was a reaction to you complaining about sex. Is it a long term solution?
I want more than that game.


----------



## Tasorundo

Because it is still a work in progress. I have not declared victory

I am fascinated by people, I enjoy the camaraderie of people that have gone through similar situations.

Also, I am bored at work.


----------



## LongWalk

T2,

Your plan is like Communism that is coming some day but that day is always distant.

You can of course do as you like, but don't tell others that passivity wins the long run. This emotion that your wife will eventually feel for you, it is not a consumer product specification that will happen or your money back. If you showed this TAM thread to her, isn't there a danger that she would not even read much of it?

Wouldn't she laugh at the certainty you evince?


----------



## NeverAgain12

Trying2figureitout said:


> Great why are you here? Obviously you and her are good.
> 
> And why did she have sex? Was it your conversation to satiate YOU? Or was it her internally wanting you?
> 
> Seems to me it was a reaction to you complaining about sex. Is it a long term solution?
> I want more than that game.


You're right, it was obviously selfish sex that just builds more resentment from your wife. To truly have more you need to abstain for a minimum of five years to truly show your commitment.

BB, sorry for ruining your thread. How about starting a part 2 when something notable happens in your relationship?


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> Transparency assumes people can sort out what bothers them and address only that. I have not seen much of that with my wife and that makes things ungood.
> 
> Compartmentalization is the key... Otherwise any issue creates a siege mentality and that's all she wrote.


THIS!!!!

I totally suffer from this. It's horrible when things feel like they're coming at you from all directions and you can't sort which ones to address as important or not. I often go for the most hurtful and in the absence of being able to identify that, I go for the most recent.

Boston, I'm like your wife with electronics and IPad. Not cell though. I seek escape from my issues. Sometimes I seek clarity and sometimes it's pure escape.

I suggest you acknowledge her feeling overwhelmed but insist she put her electronics away and instead turn to you for comfort, escape and or clarity.


----------



## Tasorundo

Our conversation did not include us complaining about sex. It had a little to do with sex, some to do with how she views her job (self employed), and then some other things about remodeling the back porch of the house.

I had a revelation over the past few days, we will call that my 'plan'. Someday I will fill people in on the details, but for now, it is working. The instant it started, I felt better about my marriage, myself as a man, and my wife as someone that truly does love and care for me.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

LongWalk said:


> T2,
> 
> Your plan is like Communism that is coming some day but that day is always distant.
> 
> You can of course do as you like, but don't tell others that passivity wins the long run. This emotion that your wife will eventually feel for you, it is not a consumer product specification that will happen or your money back. If you showed this TAM thread to her, isn't there a danger that she would not even read much of it?
> 
> Wouldn't she laugh at the certainty you evince?


No she wouldn't


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tasorundo said:


> Our conversation did not include us complaining about sex. It had a little to do with sex, some to do with how she views her job (self employed), and then some other things about remodeling the back porch of the house.
> 
> I had a revelation over the past few days, we will call that my 'plan'. Someday I will fill people in on the details, but for now, it is working. The instant it started, I felt better about my marriage, myself as a man, and my wife as someone that truly does love and care for me.


Great. Carry on. Validating her emotions is key. Everyone should have a plan glad yours is working.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown -- clip - YouTube

Here's another man with a plan. And faith. Never ending faith.

T2 is definitely the most sincere!


----------



## treyvion

Trying2figureitout said:


> I don't need to screw other women. I need to screw my wife a lot and in different ways with openness to variety. This is authentic internal change not some shoddy fix.


Well you don't have the key. You won't have the key either, it's been several years for crying out loud. Get the key from the land of women. If she says that key doesn't work with her, enjoy your time with others.


----------



## treyvion

NeverAgain12 said:


> You're right, it was obviously selfish sex that just builds more resentment from your wife. To truly have more you need to abstain for a minimum of five years to truly show your commitment.
> 
> BB, sorry for ruining your thread. How about starting a part 2 when something notable happens in your relationship?


Right!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

treyvion said:


> Well you don't have the key. You won't have the key either, it's been several years for crying out loud. Get the key from the land of women. If she says that key doesn't work with her, enjoy your time with others.


I'm married not an option


----------



## treyvion

Tasorundo said:


> You can say it is working all day long. However, until it does, you cannot not say, honestly, that it works.
> 
> You can say it appears to be working, or I have hope that it will work. But it doesn't 'work'. It is not proven, there is nothing other than your opinion that it is working.
> 
> Maybe you should change your signature to include a statement like "This advice comes from a guy who has put a 5 year plan together for having sex again."


Damn, when you put it that way.


----------



## BostonBruins32

nice night a few nights ago. we went for a late night dinner. she was talking about her friends etc. Got onto topic of her one friend who has more riches than us. I listened. Then after a few minutes, I just calmly asked if she feels like this is someone she compares her lifestyle to. She got defensive and said no/why. I said "just asking because I often hear about what her husband earns or the private school thier kids go to etc.".. I then said "I think shes really the only one of your girlfriends that I know any finances about, so I was just curious" she got increasingly defensive and laid into me. Acting like the ultimate empathyless biatch. I let her finish her tirade. I calmly said, I'm sorry for mentioning it. she shook her head like I was nuts and that was that. 

and just like that. I saw a clock in the restaurant. 9:48/9:49 (depending on big hand). I think I can literally pinpoint where I checked out. I lost interest in the fight. I spent the next 2 days working late. Pretty blurry feeling. Somewhat liberating. The only issue is I dont remember any conversation from the last 2 days. just in the zone I suppose. 

I'm sure some will jump down my throat. just being honest here i guess. i feel very numb and suddenly very focused on myself. almost selfish. I feel like one of those manufacturing plant workers who punched out and is walking to his car numb of any work related thoughts. That probably makes no sense.


----------



## jld

I think it's great you are being honest here. I just think it would be really good to be this honest, and often, with your wife.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> nice night a few nights ago. we went for a late night dinner. she was talking about her friends etc. Got onto topic of her one friend who has more riches than us. I listened. Then after a few minutes, I just calmly asked if she feels like this is someone she compares her lifestyle to. She got defensive and said no/why. I said "just asking because I often hear about what her husband earns or the private school thier kids go to etc.".. I then said "I think shes really the only one of your girlfriends that I know any finances about, so I was just curious" she got increasingly defensive and laid into me. Acting like the ultimate empathyless biatch. I let her finish her tirade. I calmly said, I'm sorry for mentioning it. she shook her head like I was nuts and that was that.
> 
> and just like that. I saw a clock in the restaurant. 9:48/9:49 (depending on big hand). I think I can literally pinpoint where I checked out. I lost interest in the fight. I spent the next 2 days working late. Pretty blurry feeling. Somewhat liberating. The only issue is I dont remember any conversation from the last 2 days. just in the zone I suppose.
> 
> I'm sure some will jump down my throat. just being honest here i guess. i feel very numb and suddenly very focused on myself. almost selfish. I feel like one of those manufacturing plant workers who punched out and is walking to his car numb of any work related thoughts. That probably makes no sense.


You didn't validate her feelings you challenged them..and thats that
Then there's the drama

BB play this smart next time


----------



## john117

In B2's mind their marriage is near perfect with money being the missing link.

It's all about perception. My wife used to mention how such and such neighbor or friend has accomplished such and such while we are watching pennies. My standard response is always "better luck with your next husband then, but you will need to actually sleep with him"... 

After a few iterations the comparisons stopped.


----------



## BostonBruins32

yeah i've tried the honesty JLD. I'm good. I feel ok about looking in the mirror today.

on a lighter note, i failed to share a big win. B3 is potty trained. Shes on a mean streak of no accidents. Its like a raise! tonight she was bragging to me about it.


----------



## jld

Way to go, B3! Life will be easier for Mom and Dad!

BB, I am talking transparency. If you were checking out at the dinner, you were not being transparent. You were not being direct and clear.

BB, she can't read your mind. But if you were transparent, and consistently so, it would work on her conscience. Her conscience probably would not be able to leave her alone. And that is what you want to reach: her heart.

BB, please consider not making this so complicated with all these techniques. Please consider just being consistently open and honest.

Beating the drum here.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

jld said:


> Way to go, B3! Life will be easier for Mom and Dad!
> 
> BB, I am talking transparency. If you were checking out at the dinner, you were not being transparent. You were not being direct and clear.
> 
> BB, she can't read your mind. But if you were transparent, and consistently so, it would work on her conscience. Her conscience probably would not be able to leave her alone. And that is what you want to reach: her heart.
> 
> BB, please consider not making this so complicated with all these techniques. Please consider just being consistently open and honest.
> 
> Beating the drum here.


I don't think you got it. When he said he checked out, he's not talking about the dinner. You can stretch a man so far, and and some point he breaks and then nothing really matters afterwords.


----------



## BostonBruins32

JLD, you're a sweetheart. but i've laid it on the line to her. I've cried in front of her. told her what i fear. told her how xyz actions impact me. told her what I expect or need from this marriage. told her what I want from this marriage. 

I've laid it out. I've been very transparent that this marriage is broken and if I cant get her to open up to me, then this will never work. and if she won't listen to me without rolling her eyes or laughing sarcastically this wont work. I've said this. bunch of times. I'm all set. 

I feel liberated. nervous but liberated.


----------



## john117

BB, if she's responding in this manner it doesn't sound she needs to open up.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> BB, if she's responding in this manner it doesn't sound she needs to open up.


please clarify.


----------



## jld

I'm so sorry, BB. I hope the separation will bring healing to your marriage, or allow both of you to move on. 

I guess I am just putting myself in the place of your wife. We don't always realize what our husbands are thinking unless it is just laid out in front of us, many times. Or maybe I am just dense.

Again, so sorry.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> I'm so sorry, BB. I hope the separation will bring healing to your marriage, or allow both of you to move on.
> 
> I guess I am just putting myself in the place of your wife. We don't always realize what our husbands are thinking unless it is just laid out in front of us, many times. Or maybe I am just dense.
> 
> Again, so sorry.


no you're good. its you're opinion which is totally legit.


----------



## jld

WorkingOnMe said:


> I don't think you got it. When he said he checked out, he's not talking about the dinner. You can stretch a man so far, and and some point he breaks and then nothing really matters afterwords.


WOM, I am sorry that you have been unhappy in your marriage, too. You said recently that things are looking up, so that is good.

I just think we women are not mind readers, either. We put a lot of trust in our husbands and think that they can handle anything, until we see they cannot. 

I just think being open and honest _repeatedly_ can really make a woman think. Otherwise we assume the man we look up to and depend on can handle anything, and it will all always be okay.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> WOM, I am sorry that you have been unhappy in your marriage, too. You said recently that things are looking up, so that is good.
> 
> I just think we women are not mind readers, either. We put a lot of trust in our husbands and think that they can handle anything, until we see they cannot.
> 
> I just think being open and honest _repeatedly_ can really make a woman think. Otherwise we assume the man we look up to and depend on can handle anything, and it will all always be okay.


thats a nice theory. but the other half of the bargain is the reception. that sarcastic laugh. that eye roll. nothing diminishes what I'm saying like that crap


----------



## Anon Pink

Have you told her yet? Have you sat her down and said I don't think I feel anything for you anymore and I'm thinking I made a big mistake?

If not, do it very soon!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

jld said:


> WOM, I am sorry that you have been unhappy in your marriage, too. You said recently that things are looking up, so that is good.
> 
> I just think we women are not mind readers, either. We put a lot of trust in our husbands and think that they can handle anything, until we see they cannot.
> 
> I just think being open and honest _repeatedly_ can really make a woman think. Otherwise we assume the man we look up to and depend on can handle anything, and it will all always be okay.


jld, why are you making this personal about me???? You know NOTHING about my marriage that I haven't told you. Please stop. The comment I posted was clarifying to YOU what BB said because you completely misconstrued it. Perhaps you should try some active listening between you and BB and stop passive aggressively commenting about my marriage when you don't like something I've said.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> thats a nice theory. but the other half of the bargain is the reception. that sarcastic laugh. that eye roll. nothing diminishes what I'm saying like that crap


Please tell her that. Please call her on that. "When I see that eye-rolling and I hear that sarcastic laugh, I feel disrespected. If I keep seeing and hearing that, I will be seeking a separation. I will not stay in a marriage where I do not feel loved. And those actions do not make me feel loved." (stern face)

Clear communication, and now, I guess, clear consequences.


----------



## jld

Sorry, WOM. No further comment.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Have you told her yet? Have you sat her down and said I don't think I feel anything for you anymore and I'm thinking I made a big mistake?
> 
> If not, do it very soon!


whats my mistake?

and im hoping to have a talk with her this weekend (sunday). I don't think it will be a surprise and I actually am pretty confident we'll both feel better after. Its essentially like someone breaking the ice so we can feel better and move on.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Please tell her that. Please call her on that. "When I see that eye-rolling and I hear that sarcastic laugh, I feel disrespected. If I keep seeing and hearing that, I will be seeking a separation. I will not stay in a marriage where I do not feel loved. And those actions do not make me feel loved." (stern face)
> 
> Clear communication, and now, I guess, clear consequences.


JLD I told her this. I told her the eye rolling and half laughs send me a message that she doesnt care. i told her that I won't remain in a marriage where someone doesnt take me serious. Told her this in those words.. point blank. 

to Anon's point, I just havent told her I'm ready to start the separation process. so while new, thats on me.


----------



## jld

Good luck, then. It sounds like you are ready.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

jld said:


> WOM, I am sorry that you have been unhappy in your marriage, too. You said recently that things are looking up, so that is good.
> 
> I just think we women are not mind readers, either. We put a lot of trust in our husbands and think that they can handle anything, until we see they cannot.
> 
> I just think being open and honest _repeatedly_ can really make a woman think. Otherwise we assume the man we look up to and depend on can handle anything, and it will all always be okay.



I will attest this is the case...repeated conversations said 20 different ways sometimes in the same conversation and finally it sinks in...Houston we have a problem..its you.

BB just divorce her if you want why play the separation game?
Personally I think you are giving up to early but that's just me.


----------



## pidge70

Trying2figureitout said:


> I will attest this is the case...repeated conversations said 20 different ways sometimes in the same conversation and finally it sinks in...Houston we have a problem..its you.
> 
> BB just divorce her if you want why play the separation game?
> Personally I think you are giving up to early but that's just me.


Not everyone is willing to be sexless for years, a little something called pride gets in the way. That's actually a good thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

pidge70 said:


> Not everyone is willing to be sexless for years, a little something called pride gets in the way. That's actually a good thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


being sexless is not the issue. i learned its a symptom of the issue. 

It will be tough, but I feel much better about my end of the bargain. I feel good about my efforts, and thats really all I can control.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> please clarify.


A resolution is likely if the following conditions are met:

1. both sides come to the table acknowledging a common goal
2. both want to work towards the common goal
3. both sides consider what is said and listen actively and with respect
4. both sides actually commit to working towards said common goal
5. both sides actually work together towards the common goal.

In some cases - some that we have seen here - 1 thru 5 occur and the issue is resolved.

In other cases there's a temporary and sometimes permanent resolution when one side unilaterally plays a trump card (be it money, threat of divorce, or other undesirable effect). But nothing happens bilaterally.

In short, if B2 is not actively listening to what you're saying and acknowledging that she understands what you're saying, and instead she rolls her eyes and responds with John Class IV Sarcasm, then that's basically it. 

In the 5 step approach above the process stops before even step 1, and that forces the game to the unilateral part. 

In another thread I wrote about how J2 prefers to completely nuke our 30 year marriage rather than consider step 1. And, how I have obliged courtesy of a nicely played out 180. That's basically where you are. But I'm probably 25+ years older than you and all things considered, the first 25 years were good. 

You correctly identified that sex is the symptom and not the root cause of your issues. Same here. So, at this point I'm running out the clock (2+ years likely) and after that we're done. You can't wait this long.

Most women in this board or planet would go crazy if they spent each and every evening alone watching Netflix while their partner is busy defending the planet from Angry Birds and improving his already world class online backgammon score. Most women would be gravely concerned if their partner does not talk more than a few sentences every day. But I'm not married to one of these 'most women' and I hope you don't put much effort in finding out if you're married to one.

I'm not abusive, I keep sarcasm to a minimum, but I'm simply unavailable. Not hard to do in a huge house. You could try this for a few months but chances are all it will do is galvanize B2 to extremes. And at this point the train has left the station.

I know this 'liberating feeling'. It's the feeling I got after a night of incredible sex (for both of us) a while back and woke up the next day feeling like krap. After running self-diagnostics I realized that it's all done and buried. The same feeling you got at 9:49 PM etc.

If I were you the only thing that would eat me alive would be to find out why she's doing it. But then I'm the curious type. Just boot up your PC and give the whole thing a good finale by listening to and watching the following Pink Floyd song...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSsjxbRxgqY#t=305


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Don't encourage behavioral castration on this thread. It's keeping you celibate, don't spread the virus.....





Trying2figureitout said:


> You didn't validate her feelings you challenged them..and thats that
> Then there's the drama
> 
> BB play this smart next time


----------



## Lyris

Trying2figureitout said:


> You didn't validate her feelings you challenged them..and thats that
> Then there's the drama
> 
> BB play this smart next time


Ha, what feelings? Her feelings of being an entitled, vulgar, money-hungry b*tch? 

Yes great idea. Validate the sh*t out of those.


----------



## MEM2020

BB,
She read you loud and clear. And she responded in a bullshlt way. It was hostile but she retained plausible deniability if you had called her on it. 

She knows what you want. Sadly when she is focused on what she wants: baby, higher social status - she is going to 'apply the whip' as needed to get what she wants from you. 

The real question here is: does this get rug swept. Meaning, do you two gradually resume being sort of nice to each other without addressing what happened on your date?

-----
Have you directly told her that B4 is off the table? 

So far if I had to pick her greatest flaw it would be: 
She absolutely lacks empathy. 

And yours:
You lack the courage of your convictions.

Your flaw actually amplifies hers. You've been feeding the monster for a long time. Now it's time to starve the monster. Or leave the building. Stop waiting for your life to happen to you. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> thats a nice theory. but the other half of the bargain is the reception. that sarcastic laugh. that eye roll. nothing diminishes what I'm saying like that crap


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris,
You and I would get along great in real life. Glad your other side of the planet.....




Lyris said:


> Ha, what feelings? Her feelings of being an entitled, vulgar, money-hungry b*tch?
> 
> Yes great idea. Validate the sh*t out of those.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Lyris said:


> Ha, what feelings? Her feelings of being an entitled, vulgar, money-hungry b*tch?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes great idea. Validate the sh*t out of those.



Lol no tell us how you really feel. Don't sugar coat it!


----------



## Lyris

MEM11363 said:


> Lyris,
> You and I would get along great in real life. Glad your other side of the planet.....


 I run marathons too. Well, half-marathons. Well, I'm training for one. 

But really, I think you'd be safe. I'm a bit too easy-going for you.





WorkingOnMe said:


> Lol no tell us how you really feel. Don't sugar coat it!


I never do WOM. That's why I keep getting banned.


----------



## LongWalk

BB,

Good that you've decided to at.
Did you choose separation over divorce because you wanted to keep hope alive?


----------



## BostonBruins32

I think separation is something on the check list that you do as part of the process of figuring out what your next step is. 

I am admittedly ready to separate. I am admittedly not ready to travel over to a lawyer right now. I suppose that could be unfair to her.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> A resolution is likely if the following conditions are met:
> 
> 1. both sides come to the table acknowledging a common goal
> 2. both want to work towards the common goal
> 3. both sides consider what is said and listen actively and with respect
> 4. both sides actually commit to working towards said common goal
> 5. both sides actually work together towards the common goal.
> 
> In some cases - some that we have seen here - 1 thru 5 occur and the issue is resolved.
> 
> In other cases there's a temporary and sometimes permanent resolution when one side unilaterally plays a trump card (be it money, threat of divorce, or other undesirable effect). But nothing happens bilaterally.
> 
> In short, if B2 is not actively listening to what you're saying and acknowledging that she understands what you're saying, and instead she rolls her eyes and responds with John Class IV Sarcasm, then that's basically it.
> 
> In the 5 step approach above the process stops before even step 1, and that forces the game to the unilateral part.
> 
> In another thread I wrote about how J2 prefers to completely nuke our 30 year marriage rather than consider step 1. And, how I have obliged courtesy of a nicely played out 180. That's basically where you are. But I'm probably 25+ years older than you and all things considered, the first 25 years were good.
> 
> You correctly identified that sex is the symptom and not the root cause of your issues. Same here. So, at this point I'm running out the clock (2+ years likely) and after that we're done. You can't wait this long.
> 
> Most women in this board or planet would go crazy if they spent each and every evening alone watching Netflix while their partner is busy defending the planet from Angry Birds and improving his already world class online backgammon score. Most women would be gravely concerned if their partner does not talk more than a few sentences every day. But I'm not married to one of these 'most women' and I hope you don't put much effort in finding out if you're married to one.
> 
> I'm not abusive, I keep sarcasm to a minimum, but I'm simply unavailable. Not hard to do in a huge house. You could try this for a few months but chances are all it will do is galvanize B2 to extremes. And at this point the train has left the station.
> 
> I know this 'liberating feeling'. It's the feeling I got after a night of incredible sex (for both of us) a while back and woke up the next day feeling like krap. After running self-diagnostics I realized that it's all done and buried. The same feeling you got at 9:49 PM etc.
> 
> *If I were you the only thing that would eat me alive would be to find out why she's doing it. *But then I'm the curious type. Just boot up your PC and give the whole thing a good finale by listening to and watching the following Pink Floyd song...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSsjxbRxgqY#t=305


This. 

I'd love to hear her say how she really feels. Because she says one thing and acts another way. To clarify, I'm not looking for her to hear a good explanation that makes me thinks she loves me. Instead I'm just looking for the last chapter of the book. The whole explanation of the mystery that makes up the first 10 chapters. 

Actually, I wish I had those powers that Mel Gibson had in "what women want". Then I would go back to our dating and wedding time. And I'd listen. I think I'd learn a lot there. 

As I've said all along, her leaving me or this marriage failing or me leaving is not what upsets me the most. Its the sneaky bomb that happens seemingly out of nowhere after you think things are one way and then boom thier not. I thought she loved me for me, but I am 90% sure she loves me for my full compensation/benefit package. I thought things were going fine, including a picnic that day, but then she needed space that night 6 months ago. I thought I was improved in doing my share around the house etc and she said I'm not. 

My perception of reality and hers are different. Neither is "right". But more importantly, it seems there is a lack of understanding that would bridge the perceptions. This bridge would be a healthy marriage.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'd love to hear her say how she really feels.


Did you try active listening? Really try?

It's what they do when you go to counseling. It's all about trying to really understand, to reach the heart.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> This.
> 
> I'd love to hear her say how she really feels. Because she says one thing and acts another way. To clarify, I'm not looking for her to hear a good explanation that makes me thinks she loves me. Instead I'm just looking for the last chapter of the book. The whole explanation of the mystery that makes up the first 10 chapters.
> 
> Actually, I wish I had those powers that Mel Gibson had in "what women want". Then I would go back to our dating and wedding time. And I'd listen. I think I'd learn a lot there.
> 
> As I've said all along, her leaving me or this marriage failing or me leaving is not what upsets me the most. Its the sneaky bomb that happens seemingly out of nowhere after you think things are one way and then boom thier not. I thought she loved me for me, but I am 90% sure she loves me for my full compensation/benefit package. I thought things were going fine, including a picnic that day, but then she needed space that night 6 months ago. I thought I was improved in doing my share around the house etc and she said I'm not.
> 
> My perception of reality and hers are different. Neither is "right". But more importantly, it seems there is a lack of understanding that would bridge the perceptions. This bridge would be a healthy marriage.


Your wife is selfish to the point of lacking empathy. If she loved you and you knew it, would you still be able to build a happy life with a selfish and self centered woman/lover?

Even selfish people can make others feel loved.

Back when she dropped the bomb and left for a few days your faith and confidence were shaken to the core. Can you come back from this on your own?

Some people can, some people can't.

I was under the impression that you clock watching at dinner indicated you didn't care anymore. You had reached the wall. A moment of clarity where you know this will not change and you you also know you cannot be happy like this. Your feelings died and you checked out emotionally.

I know from my own experience things can rebound from this. But I suspect the window doesn't stay open for long and the longer you wait to tell her you've reached and end point, the less chance you have of getting it back should she snap out of her self centered view of love.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> A moment of clarity where you know this will not change and you you also know you cannot be happy like this. Your feelings died and you checked out emotionally.



QFT...

Checking out is not a gradual process but more of a momentary blip in how we perceive the other person.

Which is not surprising as checking in, or falling in love (where's the violins emoji on thie iPhone?) is also a blip, not a continuous process.


----------



## jld

Don't you think they _can_ be a continuous process, like falling ever deeper in love, or checking ever more out, john?


----------



## john117

The start of the process is a blip then it either grows or fizzles. Without the blip there's no motivation to grow to the next level in our culture at least.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Separation can be very healthy. Johns list is right. 

Two possible outcomes:
- She is uninterested in making an effort (you'll know quickly)
- She is willing to put in some effort (it will take you time to determine whether that works for you)




BostonBruins32 said:


> I think separation is something on the check list that you do as part of the process of figuring out what your next step is.
> 
> I am admittedly ready to separate. I am admittedly not ready to travel over to a lawyer right now. I suppose that could be unfair to her.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Don't encourage behavioral castration on this thread. It's keeping you celibate, don't spread the virus.....


I am right about the *validating her feelings* (however wrong you feel they are you cannot argue with HER feelings just like nshe cannot argue with YOUR feelings) whether you all agree or not. I don't go with the TAM crowd on this.Again most here at TAM are not successful doing it the accepted TAM peer supported way...and many who were "successful" took a decade or more to sort it out.

Men do not NEED feelings validated most women DO

Face it there is the "Look like a man and don't take crap from the woman way"..favorite of TAM and you'l likely end up divorced or miserable when it doesn't work.

OR 

There is "A real fix that takes into account needs/wants of both partners and strenthens the marriage"...that works

No quick fix..only quick divorces...and a chance to ruin another life.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> This.
> 
> I'd love to hear her say how she really feels. Because she says one thing and acts another way. To clarify, I'm not looking for her to hear a good explanation that makes me thinks she loves me. Instead I'm just looking for the last chapter of the book. The whole explanation of the mystery that makes up the first 10 chapters.
> 
> Actually, I wish I had those powers that Mel Gibson had in "what women want". Then I would go back to our dating and wedding time. And I'd listen. I think I'd learn a lot there.
> 
> As I've said all along, her leaving me or this marriage failing or me leaving is not what upsets me the most. Its the sneaky bomb that happens seemingly out of nowhere after you think things are one way and then boom thier not. I thought she loved me for me, but I am 90% sure she loves me for my full compensation/benefit package. I thought things were going fine, including a picnic that day, but then she needed space that night 6 months ago. I thought I was improved in doing my share around the house etc and she said I'm not.
> 
> My perception of reality and hers are different. Neither is "right". But more importantly, it seems there is a lack of understanding that would bridge the perceptions. This bridge would be a healthy marriage.


It took YEARS for her to get to the BOOM they aren't part...don't just think this all came out of the blue. YOU helped create this...and it will likely take YEARS to dig out.

This is not all about YOU..there are two confused people involved.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

pidge70 said:


> Not everyone is willing to be sexless for years, a little something called pride gets in the way. That's actually a good thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Um ok then... get divorced

Seriously people its only SEX but lets throw out 20 years of marriage, and go find someone else to make miserable.

You all crack me up..pride?

Sure

FIX IT!

NO one said life was easy... you had a good run went bad so fix it and get it good again or better.

That is what gives you pride..you didn't cave over sex

Look in the mirror would you want sex with you????
Did you take her for granted? for years?

Hmm wonder why she isn't all over you for sex.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Trying2figureitout said:


> Um ok then... get divorced
> 
> Seriously people its only SEX but lets throw out 20 years of marriage, and go find someone else to make miserable.
> 
> You all crack me up..pride?
> 
> Sure
> 
> FIX IT!
> 
> NO one said life was easy... you had a good run went bad so fix it and get it good again or better.
> 
> That is what gives you pride..you didn't cave over sex
> 
> Look in the mirror would you want sex with you????
> Did you take her for granted? for years?
> 
> Hmm wonder why she isn't all over you for sex.


I guess it's true what they say about misery loving company. Give it up T, BB doesn't want to live in your torturous world. He doesn't want to end up with a permanently sexless cheating wife. He doesn't want to be ANYTHING like you.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

WorkingOnMe said:


> I guess it's true what they say about misery loving company. Give it up T, BB doesn't want to live in your torturous world. He doesn't want to end up with a permanently sexless cheating wife. He doesn't want to be ANYTHING like you.


Then divorce her over monthly sex and be a man. Separation is a cop out.

I stand behind what it takes to turn a sexless marriage completely around by addressing all issues.
I'm one of the least tortured here...and my saga is not permanent..by design I have many good years ahead with a fixed wife.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Trying2figureitout said:


> Then divorce her and be a man. Separation is a cop out.
> 
> I stand behind what it takes to turn a sexless marriage around.
> I'm one of the least tortured here...and my saga is not permanent..by design


It doesn't matter what you stand behind. Seriously.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> being sexless is not the issue. i learned its a symptom of the issue.


And the issue is???

Most of the people here have not gotten the newsflash yet that your M is no longer sexless, that you have sex 1-2 times a week but that despite her stepping it up sexually you remain very unhappy with your W to the point of wanting to D her.

...and you have yet to communicate this to her.

Seriously, BB, define "the issue". Your wife doesn't love you? Do you love her? (sorry but I'm not feelin it and haven't for the whole thread...)


----------



## Lyris

Trying2figureitout said:


> Then divorce her over monthly sex and be a man. Separation is a cop out.
> 
> I stand behind what it takes to turn a sexless marriage completely around by addressing all issues.
> I'm one of the least tortured here...and my saga is not permanent..by design I have many good years ahead with a fixed wife.


What if you don't have years ahead of you? What if you've only got a couple of years or less?

Not everyone lives to be old.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
You've basically turned your life upside for 4+ years on a quest for validation. Your crankiness, occasional outbursts on here and relentless focus have all been caused by a lack of validation. 

*For a typical man, sex is the ultimate validation. *

As for validating a woman's feelings. It is absolutely critical. It's also true that there is a point where you put your foot down or get ground to powder. 

It was 6+ months ago that M2 completely melted down with me over a mistake that added maybe 50 cents to our water bill. 

This was a bpd lite reaction. After having a day to cool down, she erupted over it again during dinner. I asked her: How come it's ok that M5 takes 45 minute showers every night, it's World War 3 when I accidentally leave a faucet on? 

Bright red faced response: I'm entitled to my feelings. 
Calmly I told her: And I'm choosing not to be in your company when you behave this way. 

Magically - 10 minutes later I got: An unconditional apology followed by acknowledgement that it was not acceptable to ignore M5s resource waste and flip out over my - much, much smaller waste. 

Had I not done that I would have validated her desire to believe that - I have no claim on house resources despite having created most of them. 

Your recipe of appeasement has produced a very definitive result. 

My recipe, has produced a workable marriage. 



Trying2figureitout said:


> I am right about the *validating her feelings* (however wrong you feel they are you cannot argue with HER feelings just like nshe cannot argue with YOUR feelings) whether you all agree or not. I don't go with the TAM crowd on this.Again most here at TAM are not successful doing it the accepted TAM peer supported way...and many who were "successful" took a decade or more to sort it out.
> 
> Men do not NEED feelings validated most women DO
> 
> Face it there is the "Look like a man and don't take crap from the woman way"..favorite of TAM and you'l likely end up divorced or miserable when it doesn't work.
> 
> OR
> 
> There is "A real fix that takes into account needs/wants of both partners and strenthens the marriage"...that works
> 
> No quick fix..only quick divorces...and a chance to ruin another life.


----------



## Lyris

Not all feelings are valid. Therefore not all feelings should be validated.


----------



## pidge70

Lyris said:


> Not all feelings are valid. Therefore not all feelings should be validated.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Lyris said:


> What if you don't have years ahead of you? What if you've only got a couple of years or less?
> 
> Not everyone lives to be old.


What if?

The grass is certainly not guaranteed to be greener..there's a what if.

I play the odds... so you give 4 years+ to correct a Marriage that leaves the average mid life-ish person with another 40 

In the meantime those 4 years are healing and a self reflection time-frame not held hostage by sex...and you made it through with a spouse that was with you throughout and given several chances to leave. 

I find it very empowering to watch your spouse change not because you told her to but because she wants to because she WANTS to stay married. There is more to life than sex people...and good things do come eventually.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Lyris said:


> Not all feelings are valid. Therefore not all feelings should be validated.


All feelings are real at the time and deserved to be recognized as such. EVERY feeling should earn the basics of recognition and validation. Feelings are what they are.

How can you say any feelings aren't valid?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> You've basically turned your life upside for 4+ years on a quest for validation. Your crankiness, occasional outbursts on here and relentless focus have all been caused by a lack of validation.
> 
> *For a typical man, sex is the ultimate validation. *
> 
> As for validating a woman's feelings. It is absolutely critical. It's also true that there is a point where you put your foot down or get ground to powder.
> 
> It was 6+ months ago that M2 completely melted down with me over a mistake that added maybe 50 cents to our water bill.
> 
> This was a bpd lite reaction. After having a day to cool down, she erupted over it again during dinner. I asked her: How come it's ok that M5 takes 45 minute showers every night, it's World War 3 when I accidentally leave a faucet on?
> 
> Bright red faced response: I'm entitled to my feelings.
> Calmly I told her: And I'm choosing not to be in your company when you behave this way.
> 
> Magically - 10 minutes later I got: An unconditional apology followed by acknowledgement that it was not acceptable to ignore M5s resource waste and flip out over my - much, much smaller waste.
> 
> Had I not done that I would have validated her desire to believe that - I have no claim on house resources despite having created most of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Your recipe of appeasement has produced a very definitive result.
> 
> My recipe, has produced a workable marriage.



My recipe would have not had my wife throw a hissy fit over a faucet left on in the first place. She knows better that to go off like that.

I would have been more upset at myself for wasting water than anything my wife said to me and she knows that already.

So in the end we are the same our wives know better than to make a mountain out of a molehill.

My marriage is every bit as workable as yours....and we come at it from different ends of the spectrum.

Also if sex is the ULTIMATE validation you have issues as a man.

"I choose not to be in your company" = I'm taking my ball and you cannot play


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Just as her need for space blindsided you, she will feel blindsided by a separation request. I know you've told her you are not happy. But she isn't very tuned to how you feel, hasn't been since you got married. 

Why not tell her what you just told us: I feel like you mainly love what currently I do for you and what you hope I will do for you in the future. It doesn't seem like you really care how I feel. And if love doesn't include a genuine concern for your partners physical and emotional well being: it isn't love

------
Since She's much more interested in winning, than in intimacy you will likely either get:
1. A blatant - take it or leave it - response. This is how I am
Or 
2. Silence - she knows this is a super dangerous topic - and that it's getting harder and harder to convince you that the sky is colored as she describes, not as your eyes tell you
Or
3. Prove it: give me examples 

As for the prove it, in the spirit of fairness:
You've known for a while I'm no longer on board with the original plan for B4. And yet you've never acknowledged it. Instead you go to a baby shower, come home and nuke me. You want me to provide what you want, when you want it. Sperm. Money. 

We are having sex more often. But I don't have to guess why we weren't having sex. You didn't like it. That's likely still true. I'm thinking that you tolerate it now because you want something from me. Why don't you step out of the shadows and say what that is. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> This.
> 
> I'd love to hear her say how she really feels. Because she says one thing and acts another way. To clarify, I'm not looking for her to hear a good explanation that makes me thinks she loves me. Instead I'm just looking for the last chapter of the book. The whole explanation of the mystery that makes up the first 10 chapters.
> 
> Actually, I wish I had those powers that Mel Gibson had in "what women want". Then I would go back to our dating and wedding time. And I'd listen. I think I'd learn a lot there.
> 
> As I've said all along, her leaving me or this marriage failing or me leaving is not what upsets me the most. Its the sneaky bomb that happens seemingly out of nowhere after you think things are one way and then boom thier not. I thought she loved me for me, but I am 90% sure she loves me for my full compensation/benefit package. I thought things were going fine, including a picnic that day, but then she needed space that night 6 months ago. I thought I was improved in doing my share around the house etc and she said I'm not.
> 
> My perception of reality and hers are different. Neither is "right". But more importantly, it seems there is a lack of understanding that would bridge the perceptions. This bridge would be a healthy marriage.


----------



## john117

Sex is useful validation in *some* cases. 

If you have a marriage that has its ups and downs, sex may be a good sign that both partners are committed to working out their differences.

You could have a partner with a PA on the side doing it like bunnies at home to cover their tracks or because of guilt or what not.

You could have duty sex which is about as far from the ultimate validation as it gets.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> All feelings are real at the time and deserved to be recognized as such. EVERY feeling should earn the basics of recognition and validation. Feelings are what they are.
> 
> How can you say any feelings aren't valid?


There is a big difference between real and valid.

Someone afraid of driving across bridges has a real feeling of fear, but it's not a valid feeling.

T2, lots of us think you're making a mistake in being patient and waiting things out. For us, this would not be a workable solution to a sexless marriage. For you, it's something you can live with. Sex obviously just doesn't mean as much to you as it does to other people.

For me, if my husband went two weeks refusing to touch me, he'd get another two weeks to figure it out and then I'd start packing. Sex is far too important TO ME to stay with a man who doesn't want to touch me.

But for you, it's okay. So maybe some of your advice isn't really applicable because sex just isn't that important to you. Maybe some of my advice isn't that applicable because sex is too important to me. Everyone is different.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> There is a big difference between real and valid.
> 
> Someone afraid of driving across bridges has a real feeling of fear, but it's not a valid feeling.
> 
> T2, lots of us think you're making a mistake in being patient and waiting things out. For us, this would not be a workable solution to a sexless marriage. For you, it's something you can live with. Sex obviously just doesn't mean as much to you as it does to other people.
> 
> For me, if my husband went two weeks refusing to touch me, he'd get another two weeks to figure it out and then I'd start packing. Sex is far too important TO ME to stay with a man who doesn't want to touch me.
> 
> But for you, it's okay. So maybe some of your advice isn't really applicable because sex just isn't that important to you. Maybe some of my advice isn't that applicable because sex is too important to me. Everyone is different.


A phobia is real..if its bridges or whatever to that person... and deserved to be recognized and validated. As for if its nuts or not that is up for later discussion.

I would like to see you pack your bags after two/four weeks without sex... people talk big and the reality is its just talk.

Remember you aren't sexless..and there are certain ways of handling a sexless marriage that differ form normal sexual marriages. Which in fact are what we used to have at some point too and are working our way back to.

As for those currently having sex...that can change at the drop of a hat. Any marriage can go sexless and many do in years 15-18.


----------



## Lyris

There is just no way I'd be willing to live in a sexless marriage for 4+ years, and I'd say I'm in the majority. 

So as AnonPink says, pretty much everything you say T2 is useless to most people.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> A phobia is real..if its bridges or whatever to that person... and deserved to be recognized and validated. As for if its nuts or not that is up for later discussion.
> 
> I would like to see you pack your bags after two weeks without sex... people talk big and the reality is its just talk.


Okay, perhaps I under estimated my time limit. But if my husband just refused to touch me, refused sex, and appeared to have a full social life that didn't include me, I might go as long as a month. But not much more.

A phobia is a real fear based on the irrational. The feeling is real, but since it isn't based on the rational, it's invalid.


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris,
100 percent agree with this. 

I have moments when I feel angry inside for no valid reason. When that happens, I keep it to myself. After I go workout or have something to eat - they disappear. 

If I were to express that anger in the moment, I'm sure I would/could reverse engineer a reason for it. But that's a massively crappy thing to do to someone else. 




Lyris said:


> Not all feelings are valid. Therefore not all feelings should be validated.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Lyris said:


> There is just no way I'd be willing to live in a sexless marriage for 4+ years, and I'd say I'm in the majority.
> 
> So as AnonPink says, pretty much everything you say T2 is useless to most people.



Neither would I... year one was not sexless, year two was clinically(9), years 3 and 4 my choice to remain sexless(2) while waiting for the right moment for sex to return...now after extraction of OM

If I turn my marriage around..it can help others.

See I look at quality of the experience and a permanaent fix over just forcing it on my wife..big difference


----------



## Lyris

I'm not suggesting you force anything on your wife. I just don't think she's going to turn around and magically start wanting to have sex with you while you sit around passively and wait for that to happen. 

She's obviously LD anyway, as you never had sex very much. And now she's ND for you personally. 

I get no sense from any of your posts that you know or understand your wife. She's a total enigma to you. The reason I know that is that you have written 100s and 1000s of words about her and she's an enigma to me. Compared to MEM's wife and John's wife, who I understand very well because *they* understand them very well.


----------



## john117

And that's why good ole' Dr. John here suggests understanding what you're dealing with...

It will tell you whether there is a fix, what the cost of the fix is, whether you can "afford" the fix, whether you're willing to live with the fix, or not. It won't fix it for you - only your partner can do that.

If you're in the 'not' category then you either cherry pick aspects of your marriage that you enjoy (money, kids, domestic help ) or pull the cord and bail.

It's things like those that make me wonder why a solid one or two year sequence in psychology is not mandatory in our k12 education system.....

Tell you what, T2, would you mind giving us some solid background on Mrs. T2 and your overall relationship? Maybe there's logic in your method but without background we might a well be looking for the missing plane around Paducah....

Include as much detail as you feel comfortable, in general terms of course.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> And that's why good ole' Dr. John here suggests understanding what you're dealing with...
> 
> It will tell you whether there is a fix, what the cost of the fix is, whether you can "afford" the fix, whether you're willing to live with the fix, or not. It won't fix it for you - only your partner can do that.
> 
> If you're in the 'not' category then you either cherry pick aspects of your marriage that you enjoy (money, kids, domestic help ) or pull the cord and bail.
> 
> It's things like those that make me wonder why a solid one or two year sequence in psychology is not mandatory in our k12 education system.....
> 
> Tell you what, T2, would you mind giving us some solid background on Mrs. T2 and your overall relationship? Maybe there's logic in your method but without background we might a well be looking for the missing plane around Paducah....
> 
> Include as much detail as you feel comfortable, in general terms of course.


Her: Normal childhood, grudge with sister, obese as a teen, ran with counter culture, started driving at 14, went away to school as soon as possible, hated school quit, moved at first opportunity,, worked two jobs, one to make money the other to foster her talents, landed a job where she could use her talents, still has a side job., knows everyone in town its hard for her to go out without running into someone she knows. She takes great care of herself and dresses very smartly and stylishly looks better with age. She has good tastes in many things. Shes go go go..crash. Rinse repeat.

In essence she is smart, talented, beautiful, fit, a mom, hard worker, morning person, great healthy cook, our home is decorated smartly, she is funny and very social tomboy at heart. With a huge forgiveness flaw.

Some of you wonder why I stay... because I choose to for the challenge and the reward. For me I do this little exercise I observe other couples, other women and I ask myself would I be happier with them... then I observe their flaws at parties or socially or in the workplace. So I am picky and don't see the grass as being greener... in many ways I am lucky to have found such a compatible spouse with so many good qualities that she has never once gave up on us....she has been free to leave. She stays.

As for our relationship... its easy we work together on things and have vastly different talents that help each other out and get along without arguing. We think the same thoughts and we are both stubborn as all get out. I think both of us are in a way playing a game with each other and that both of us definitely want it to work. That's more than half of the battle right there.

I may still divorce her. She took the stubborn game a bit too far. She needs to show me she has totally dropped any resentment.

So I feel its worth the effort..and I feel I will be 100% successful.

Its my school of thought...if its of value FIX what you have. I also don't lease cars I drive them into the ground and take care of them throughout. When I buy something I don't throw it away..marriage is the ultimate buy. So I fix it.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Lyris said:


> I'm not suggesting you force anything on your wife. I just don't think she's going to turn around and magically start wanting to have sex with you while you sit around passively and wait for that to happen.
> 
> She's obviously LD anyway, as you never had sex very much. And now she's ND for you personally.
> 
> I get no sense from any of your posts that you know or understand your wife. She's a total enigma to you. The reason I know that is that you have written 100s and 1000s of words about her and she's an enigma to me. Compared to MEM's wife and John's wife, who I understand very well because *they* understand them very well.


I did anything but sit around passively. I had a plan and stuck to it. You don't change marital dynamics just passively sitting around. (Drama)

I do understand my wife...she hates drama and wants to enjoy life. She is highly capable of living as a single or re-marrying but chooses NOT TO.

We will enjoy life ... without drama (part of the plan)

Is she LD? I have my doubts... maybe LD for the old me. Most of it is her lifestyle choices and morning person tendencies...and her grudge holding which is being handled now.


----------



## john117

So on my view...

- High ego
- Non conformist personality when it suits her
- Focus on material things
- Some insecurities (why work 2 jobs)
- Not hard working, not goal driven (seems that way to me)
- Focus on appearance 
- Approval seeking
- Has her own idea of how things should be without accepting others' views
- Lack of emotional maturity

It sounds like she focuses too much on herself without concern of others. You know that. It also sounds she's not happy with her past so she is "tortured" or "haunted" by stuff from the past that she hasn't dealt with (by projecting this super manicured image)

I'm not calling it NPD quite yet but the inability to relate to others' feelings is concerning. No empathy basically.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

john117 said:


> So on my view...
> 
> - High ego
> - Non conformist personality when it suits her
> - Focus on material things
> - Some insecurities (why work 2 jobs)
> - Not hard working, not goal driven (seems that way to me)
> - Focus on appearance
> - Approval seeking
> - Has her own idea of how things should be without accepting others' views
> - Lack of emotional maturity
> 
> It sounds like she focuses too much on herself without concern of others. You know that. It also sounds she's not happy with her past so she is "tortured" or "haunted" by stuff from the past that she hasn't dealt with (by projecting this super manicured image)
> 
> I'm not calling it NPD quite yet but the inability to relate to others' feelings is concerning. No empathy basically.


About 1/2 of these things describe him too.


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris,
The one theme I have hit the hardest with T2 during the last 4 years has to do with his wife's avoidance of non-sexual affection. It seemed unlikely that a woman who disliked non sexual touch was going to jump straight into sex. 

And despite T2's repeated premature ejacxclamations of victory, this is one topic he steadfastly avoids. When asked whether basic affection has returned, he changes the subject or simply ignores the question. This isn't just a sexless marriage, it's a largely affection less marriage. 



QUOTE=Lyris;8053658]I'm not suggesting you force anything on your wife. I just don't think she's going to turn around and magically start wanting to have sex with you while you sit around passively and wait for that to happen. 

She's obviously LD anyway, as you never had sex very much. And now she's ND for you personally. 

I get no sense from any of your posts that you know or understand your wife. She's a total enigma to you. The reason I know that is that you have written 100s and 1000s of words about her and she's an enigma to me. Compared to MEM's wife and John's wife, who I understand very well because *they* understand them very well.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

Meh,
Likely true but largely irrelevant. She's capable of love. Was definitely in love and in lust with her affair partner for at least 4 years. 

She just doesn't love T2. 

First she held him at bay with resentment. Not saying it wasn't true. Just saying that it wasn't the primary reason they were sexless. 

Then he found out about her lover and instead of asserting his boundaries he created frequent conflict with her about her ongoing relations with the other man. So her new tactic is to blame him for the drama caused by her affair. And T2, being T2 has taken this to heart. He promised to stop with the drama, and proudly lets us know that he's made good on that commitment. Yet another addition to her well designed, perpetually (forward) motionless T2 improvement hamster wheel. 





john117 said:


> So on my view...
> 
> - High ego
> - Non conformist personality when it suits her
> - Focus on material things
> - Some insecurities (why work 2 jobs)
> - Not hard working, not goal driven (seems that way to me)
> - Focus on appearance
> - Approval seeking
> - Has her own idea of how things should be without accepting others' views
> - Lack of emotional maturity
> 
> It sounds like she focuses too much on herself without concern of others. You know that. It also sounds she's not happy with her past so she is "tortured" or "haunted" by stuff from the past that she hasn't dealt with (by projecting this super manicured image)
> 
> I'm not calling it NPD quite yet but the inability to relate to others' feelings is concerning. No empathy basically.


----------



## Lyris

But T2 do you touch her? Do you behave in a sexually assertive way around her? Or are you waiting for her to have a spontaneous surge of sexual desire for you, enough to initiate sex aggressively and sincerely, with no initiation or input from you? 

It's just never going to happen. As a woman with primarily responsive desire, I would basically never feel sexual enough on my own to initiate sex out of nowhere without my husband priming the pump so to speak. 

Plus I'm actually in love with my husband on a very basic physical and chemical level. I need to be physically close to him as much as possible. When we are together, we are always physically connected somehow. Nothing you've said about your wife makes me think your wife loves you in this way.


----------



## treyvion

WorkingOnMe said:


> I guess it's true what they say about misery loving company. Give it up T, BB doesn't want to live in your torturous world. He doesn't want to end up with a permanently sexless cheating wife. He doesn't want to be ANYTHING like you.


And he shouldn't. I'd say the first thing they both should do is go out and find some sex.


----------



## LongWalk

T2 admires the prison he is in.


----------



## Blonde

Trying2figureitout said:


> In essence she is smart, talented, beautiful, fit, a mom, hard worker, morning person, great healthy cook, our home is decorated smartly, she is funny and very social tomboy at heart. With a huge forgiveness flaw.


Reminds me of the success stories such as bagdon. Not a word of disrespect or devaluing toward your wife. You actually LIKE and APPRECIATE her. IMO there's hope for your M. 

Amplexor the mod here said he went 2 years sexless and they have recovered.

JFTR T2, BB isn't sexless now. He just doesn't like his W or M. Sex alone is not enough to make a good M.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> So on my view...
> 
> - High ego
> - Non conformist personality when it suits her
> - Focus on material things
> - Some insecurities (why work 2 jobs)
> - Not hard working, not goal driven (seems that way to me)
> - Focus on appearance
> - Approval seeking
> - Has her own idea of how things should be without accepting others' views
> - Lack of emotional maturity
> 
> 
> It sounds like she focuses too much on herself without concern of others. You know that. It also sounds she's not happy with her past so she is "tortured" or "haunted" by stuff from the past that she hasn't dealt with (by projecting this super manicured image)
> 
> I'm not calling it NPD quite yet but the inability to relate to others' feelings is concerning. No empathy basically.


So on my view...

- *High ego*
- *Non conformist personality when it suits her*
- Focus on material things
- *Some insecurities* (why work 2 jobs)
- Not hard working, not goal driven (seems that way to me)
- *Focus on appearance *
- *Approval seeking*
- *Has her own idea of how things should be without accepting others' views*
- *Lack of emotional maturity
*

-* Lacks forgiveness*
- *Avoids dealing with emotions*
-* Hates conflict/Drama
*

The bolded I agree with...

She is pretty much an all or nothing type personality. Either you are on her good side or bad. She needs to feel in love to give or seek physical love.

I don't think she really knows what* love* is perhaps none of us really do. She won't let her guard down to experience it fully.
She is chasing a feeling when actions are needed to get that feeling. Love is an action not a feeling.

This puts here in a particularly strange situation with me as her only spouse. She may have never been "in-love" during the past four years with me and fell mentally "in-love" with another and experienced different crush feelings. Now that that is not an option for her little world she must fall back "in-love" to provide me what I need. She loves our family and on the surface she loves me... she just doesn't have the fluttering butterflies after so many years. She is at least honest... I would much rather she withhold sex than do some duty sex...at least I know when we do have it she is committed to us again and feeling more in-love. She would rather divorce than be forced into to something...neither of us are afraid of divorce... neither of us want it though and we both understand the stakes and see this as FIXABLE. So she is _trying_ and understands limbo is no longer an option.

I'm sure there is some disorder in her personality. Is it a deal-breaker possibly however I do believe and all signs point to her internally dealing with this. My job is easy at this point wait...

The fact she REFUSES counseling of any sort.. tells me what she is dealing with is similar to an addictive personality.

As for non-sexual touch I do that daily when I see her she has returned it occasionally.

So I could have it worse, its not a prison its a situation we are dealing with together. I believe we will be successful and both learn from this period what to do.

I do appreciate my wife I would marry her again. I take into account the whole picture and the likelihood over overcoming a relationship disorder she unfortunately has.... to me this is similar to any physical limitation that a couple has to overcome.... so she gets a bit of a pass from me.

I initiate when *I want to*. I have a feeling when I do rejections will be less now...and non-existent eventually. That is my goal doing this my way.


----------



## Blonde

T2 I would love to see you turn your M around and have success. See Lyris post above AND you need to be in good shape and attractive. Put some energy into self improvement: eat right, exercise, career advancement, etc...

When your wife turns toward you I think she'll turn hard. 

How about taking her to Marriage Help Program For Couples?


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> It was 6+ months ago that M2 completely melted down with me over a mistake that added maybe 50 cents to our water bill.


IIRC didn't you say that you aren't working and have not looked for a job for quite some time? Kinda came across to me that you were doing this *to punish her* for some reaction she had?

If she is the primary breadwinner, melting down over the water was just the "presenting issue".



MEM11363 said:


> After exploding that: Dad - at the time our sole breadwinner - was apparently not entitled to a few hundred dollars of discretionary spend. But our kids (of course I love them - they are blood - they simply aren't serious students) were welcome to an extra 100K plus for undergrad - just because.
> 
> *This is why I quit working - and haven't looked for a job since. *M2 works full time now. I love her - AND - I have yet to hear the magic words yet. She makes 1/6 what I did.


^^ I'm working on this kind of attitude with my 8th grade son- our 7th child and the only one who has ever been a borderline student. He's very smart but he cuts off his nose to spite his face. Teacher mean?--> not going to do my homework! 

Get a job for YOU.


----------



## john117

Giving up as a response is not uncommon. It will probably not make me earn many merit badges but I thoroughly enjoy the rejections of J2's attempts from her efforts to initiate or maintain conversations about most things to doing anything together like going for a walk to her infrequent quests for intimacy. 

It would take considerably more than sex to fix this mess and she knows it. So in a sense I'm playing the role of Mrs. T2 here perhaps? If "things" don't go my way I don't bother. I've tried to compromise in the past. Not any more. Not if she won't compromise. Just as selfish and destructive, naturally.

Not passive aggressive, she knows what I'm doing it and why I'm doing it. And I tell her. She made her choices and I made mine.

The key difference is that I can survive and thrive alone. Thanks to her BPD she likely can't. Good luck with that.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Blonde said:


> Reminds me of the success stories such as bagdon. Not a word of disrespect or devaluing toward your wife. You actually LIKE and APPRECIATE her. IMO there's hope for your M.
> 
> Amplexor the mod here said he went 2 years sexless and they have recovered.
> 
> JFTR T2, BB isn't sexless now. He just doesn't like his W or M. Sex alone is not enough to make a good M.


Thanks I do agree on the hope part. 

As for BB if he doesn't like his W or M that is on him. I'm sure there is plenty of good that is obscured by feeling jipped.


----------



## Blonde

Trying2figureitout said:


> As for BB if he doesn't like his W or M that is on him. I'm sure there is plenty of good that is obscured by feeling jipped.


Yep. Grass is greener syndrome and High Fructose Porn Syrup and another one bites the dust...

I predict the new sex habit will die once he has the talk explaining how much he hates her guts and wants to be separated... wouldn't light my fire. ((((shrug)))

At least they only have one child who will be from a broken family.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> . I'm sure there is plenty of good that is obscured by feeling jipped.


Finally! I agree whole heartedly with something you've said!


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> Finally! I agree whole heartedly with something you've said!


Woo Hoo... now I can die happy


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Blonde said:


> T2 I would love to see you turn your M around and have success. See Lyris post above AND you need to be in good shape and attractive. Put some energy into self improvement: eat right, exercise, career advancement, etc...
> 
> When your wife turns toward you I think she'll turn hard.
> 
> How about taking her to Marriage Help Program For Couples?


Blonde thanks but that is not what either of us need. We just need to move on.


----------



## MEM2020

This is a big thing to me. M2 craves my touch. She melts into long hugs. Front to front. Front to back. 

I couldn't be in a marriage with someone who merely tolerated my touch. 


QUOTE=Lyris;8056874]But T2 do you touch her? Do you behave in a sexually assertive way around her? Or are you waiting for her to have a spontaneous surge of sexual desire for you, enough to initiate sex aggressively and sincerely, with no initiation or input from you? 

It's just never going to happen. As a woman with primarily responsive desire, I would basically never feel sexual enough on my own to initiate sex out of nowhere without my husband priming the pump so to speak. 

Plus I'm actually in love with my husband on a very basic physical and chemical level. I need to be physically close to him as much as possible. When we are together, we are always physically connected somehow. Nothing you've said about your wife makes me think your wife loves you in this way.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> This is a big thing to me. M2 craves my touch. She melts into long hugs. Front to front. Front to back.
> 
> I couldn't be in a marriage with someone who merely tolerated my touch.
> 
> 
> QUOTE=Lyris;8056874]But T2 do you touch her? Do you behave in a sexually assertive way around her? Or are you waiting for her to have a spontaneous surge of sexual desire for you, enough to initiate sex aggressively and sincerely, with no initiation or input from you?
> 
> It's just never going to happen. As a woman with primarily responsive desire, I would basically never feel sexual enough on my own to initiate sex out of nowhere without my husband priming the pump so to speak.
> 
> Plus I'm actually in love with my husband on a very basic physical and chemical level. I need to be physically close to him as much as possible. When we are together, we are always physically connected somehow. Nothing you've said about your wife makes me think your wife loves you in this way.


[/QUOTE]

My wife melts also...just not with every single hug she used to crave touch and will once again


----------



## jld

Blonde, I think your attitude is much like my husband. He really does not believe in divorce, or thinks it should be rare. And he accepts so few excuses from men.


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
Up above you cleverly spliced together two of my posts. And followed it with a constructive suggestion. Thank you for that. 

Since this is Boston's thread, why not do the same for him. 

I have never sensed anything even approaching hate - coming from Boston. 

So splice in a couple of posts/comments he's made that lead you to claim he has hate in his heart. 

And let's clearly differentiate between: how we feel about the way someone is treating us, vs how we feel about them. 

The few times I've told M2 that I'm ready to part ways, I felt sad and defeated. And yet, I still felt love. Didn't stop loving her. Just wasn't agreeable to remaining in a marriage where the emotionally stronger partner was so casually aggressive. 

Boston is fighting for intimacy. He wants to KNOW what's in her head. What's really important to her. 

Sometimes you need a type of 3D seismic to find out what's deep inside a partners head. You detonate the dynamite and map out the echoes. 

M2 sang the 'It's you' song to me for months. It goes something like this: 
It's you, it's you, you know I'm right 
You're the reason that we fight 

She called a lawyer. That's her right. 

So I figured I'd save us some time. I sent her a simple half page, binding settlement offer. It was better than she would get in court. 

And that same night I asked her if it would be uncontested. Because where I live, uncontested means - very fast. 

I was - resigned - at that point. 

And then the echoes came back:
I don't want this. I'm going to contest, and delay and continue until you realize you don't want to leave me. I know I'm difficult. I will try harder not to be so controlling. 

This wasn't a game or a strategy. I wasn't hoping for a reaction. I was ready to leave. 




Blonde said:


> Yep. Grass is greener syndrome and High Fructose Porn Syrup and another one bites the dust...
> 
> I predict the new sex habit will die once he has the talk explaining how much he hates her guts and wants to be separated... wouldn't light my fire. ((((shrug)))
> 
> At least they only have one child who will be from a broken family.


----------



## john117

> It's you, it's you, you know I'm right
> 
> You're the reason that we fight
> 
> She called a lawyer. That's her right.


Do you guys always argue in verse? (Ducking)

Lucky you MEM. 

I spent an hour today trying to explain community property to J2. 

Let's just say that legalese is not her strong point  like other Frigidistan elite she's having a hard time comprehending laws that apply to everyone equally....


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> Boston is fighting for intimacy. He wants to KNOW what's in her head. What's really important to her.


You are projecting. That is what YOU want and how YOU feel. Clear to me from your posts that YOU love your wife. Good for you!

Boston OTH has detached, is looking at TAM and seeing greener grass (#7), looking at porn and seeing greener grass, and looking at Home Depot and the grocery store (#300) and seeing greener grass.

Has he said anything nice about his W? Anything he values? Remind me... I can't remember anything. The way he talks about her is the way waywards talk about their mates...


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
Hold the presses. 

You're forecasting marital bliss for a guy who has TOTALLY rug swept a blatant multi year PA. 

You think your marriage would have recovered if you had rug swept Mr. Blondes affairs?

*So Boston gets the blowtorch for pressing hard for genuine openness. And T2 gets a big warm pat on the back for being a good natured Cuckold. *




Blonde said:


> T2 I would love to see you turn your M around and have success. See Lyris post above AND you need to be in good shape and attractive. Put some energy into self improvement: eat right, exercise, career advancement, etc...
> 
> When your wife turns toward you I think she'll turn hard.
> 
> How about taking her to Marriage Help Program For Couples?


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> Has he said anything nice about his W? Anything he values? Remind me... I can't remember anything. The way he talks about her is the way waywards talk about their mates...



About as much as I have, i.e. not much. It's not really projecting, but merely a manifestation of priorities within the marriage. 

A pretty clear sign of check-out-itis if you ask me. J2 could end world hunger tomorrow for all i care and it wouldn't change my view of her one bit. I doubt it's different for others...


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
I do love M2 - truly - madly - deeply. Crazy about her. Always have been. 

Detachment - yes - I'm seeing that. Boston is detaching. But that isn't hate. Hate is the strongest emotionally negative word in English. You ought not transit between hate and detachment so casually. 

I will gladly respond to your request. Over time, Boston has said this about B2:
- Great Mom
- Smart 
- Organized
- Disciplined and responsible with money 
- Strong willed (he loves this about her - to a point)
- Good sense of humor 

He's also said - I am paraphrasing here:
- She's low empathy in general and towards him and 
- Selfish 

And that she appears to be using him as a means to an end. 

It is a little unsettling to me that he doesn't seem to understand her. But I'm not sure how well I understood M2 at his age. 

Boston claims to want to know the truth more than anything. And yet - what he wants, would require B2 to demonstrate a huge amount of courage. He is attempting to defy reciprocity rules, which is like trying to defy gravity. 

If he wants to benefit from her courage, he needs to lead by example. This begins with him telling her the truth - as he sees it. And then whatever happens - happens. 


QUOTE=Blonde;8061402]You are projecting. That is what YOU want and how YOU feel. Clear to me from your posts that YOU love your wife. Good for you!

Boston OTH has detached, is looking at TAM and seeing greener grass (#7), looking at porn and seeing greener grass, and looking at Home Depot and the grocery store (#300) and seeing greener grass.

Has he said anything nice about his W? Anything he values? Remind me... I can't remember anything. The way he talks about her is the way waywards talk about their mates...[/QUOTE]


----------



## Duguesclin

MEM11363 said:


> I will gladly respond to your request. Over time, Boston has said this about B2:
> - Great Mom
> - Smart
> - Organized
> - Disciplined and responsible with money
> - Strong willed (he loves this about her - to a point)
> - Good sense of humor
> 
> He's also said - I am paraphrasing here:
> - She's low empathy in general and towards him and
> - Selfish


I do not know why he wants to separate over this.

I have not read the long list of posts, but, does he measure up to her? Is he a great dad, smart, organized, etc... What does he bring to her?

Does he deserve empathy?

Maybe those are the questions he should ask?


----------



## MEM2020

Dug,
I left out the most important thing. 

This is something you have some recent familiarity with, so it may resonate. 

It appears to Boston, that his wife lacks both the desire to please - and the desire to avoid displeasing him. 

Think about how angry your wife might hypothetically get, were she to think you were indifferent to her needs. And imagine that, situation persisting for a long time. 



Duguesclin said:


> I do not know why he wants to separate over this.
> 
> I have not read the long list of posts, but, does he measure up to her? Is he a great dad, smart, organized, etc... What does he bring to her?
> 
> Does he deserve empathy?
> 
> Maybe those are the questions he should ask?


----------



## Duguesclin

MEM11363 said:


> Dug,
> I left out the most important thing.
> 
> This is something you have some recent familiarity with, so it may resonate.
> 
> It appears to Boston, that his wife lacks both the desire to please - and the desire to avoid displeasing him.
> 
> Think about how angry your wife might hypothetically get, were she to think you were indifferent to her needs. And imagine that, situation persisting for a long time.


I agree with you. My wife has yelled at me countless of time for my lack of empathy for her and our kids. I agree it is an issue. I am just not a very emotional person. My wife is, and she expects more emotion from me. It does not mean we are going to get a divorce. I am doing things she likes and it compensates for other issues I have.

Now, it does not mean I do not work on empathy (for example). I know I will never be the best at it, but I certainly can improve.

My point here is, what does he do to earn the respect of his wife? We are not all the same and he may not be as organized as her and so on. But he needs to bring something to the table otherwise it will not work. Complaining about her being selfish is not going to help.

Obviously it is impossible to know the details of a couple's dynamic in a few lines and, for all I know, she may be the worst person in the world. However, I think it is relevant to bring this issue up.


----------



## john117

Empathy deficiency can be overcome by the use of other techniques assuming one is a good observer and listener.

One can also have vast amounts of empathy but by not acting upon the empathy it is all for naught.

So...

I have great empathy and on the outside appear to be animated and emotional. It's all a pretty good show because I am not really emotional - but that doesn't mean I can't read it or use it.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
Amen. 

It requires effort and a sincere desire to manage relationships with others constructively. And this is all predicated on the notion that other people matter. 

One of the things I noticed in an early post of yours was a very real concern that if you and J2 parted ways, she might struggle to function in areas you currently provide support. It was obvious that the thought of her coming to harm bothered you - that you care about her well being as an individual and also as the mother of your children. 

And the context and her ill treatment of you made that a very high contrast sentiment. 

You can best judge a mans character in conflict. 




john117 said:


> Empathy deficiency can be overcome by the use of other techniques assuming one is a good observer and listener.
> 
> One can also have vast amounts of empathy but by not acting upon the empathy it is all for naught.
> 
> So...
> 
> I have great empathy and on the outside appear to be animated and emotional. It's all a pretty good show because I am not really emotional - but that doesn't mean I can't read it or use it.


----------



## MEM2020

Dug,
Despite that, she does not feel you are using her for your own selfish ends. And that is because you put a lot of time, talent and treasure into the marriage. 




Duguesclin said:


> I agree with you. My wife has yelled at me countless of time for my lack of empathy for her and our kids. I agree it is an issue. I am just not a very emotional person. My wife is, and she expects more emotion from me. It does not mean we are going to get a divorce. I am doing things she likes and it compensates for other issues I have.
> 
> Now, it does not mean I do not work on empathy (for example). I know I will never be the best at it, but I certainly can improve.
> 
> My point here is, what does he do to earn the respect of his wife? We are not all the same and he may not be as organized as her and so on. But he needs to bring something to the table otherwise it will not work. Complaining about her being selfish is not going to help.
> 
> Obviously it is impossible to know the details of a couple's dynamic in a few lines and, for all I know, she may be the worst person in the world. However, I think it is relevant to bring this issue up.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> One of the things I noticed in an early post of yours was a very real concern that if you and J2 parted ways, she might struggle to function in areas you currently provide support. It was obvious that the thought of her coming to harm bothered you - that you care about her well being as an individual and also as the mother of your children.
> 
> 
> 
> And the context and her ill treatment of you made that a very high contrast sentiment.



True. I do feel responsible for my part of "in sickness and health" even though I know that I can't depend on her for anything more than a drive to the hospital.

A couple of times during our "good" years she and my older girl had health scares. I know I handled it far better than she would have if it was me in the hospital. And knowing this is far more of a dark omen than sex or money will ever be.

The thought of her coming to harm if and when she's alone does bother me but not enough to prevent me from what I would like to do long term. If it's self preservation vs. the rest. I told her many times about what BPD is and what it does. After that I've done my part. 

Just like at work, designing a warning label and sticking it to the side of a toaster oven does not absolve me from liability if the oven is used as expected and it kills someone. But if they try to use it outdoors in rain it's not my problem. Let 'em burn!

That's how I feel. It doesn't bother me that I'm the one that gets the short end of the stick. It bothers me that I should have conveyed better, thru the iron walls of BPD and other mental artifacts, what's coming and how to fix it.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

The secret is in when to stop communicating and when to start living again.

A corollary is to communicate enough that it sinks in before you stop.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trying2figureitout said:


> Woo Hoo... now I can die happy


Yes I know!

You must feel so relieved.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> It bothers me that I should have conveyed better, thru the iron walls of BPD and other mental artifacts, what's coming and how to fix it.


That shows sensitivity and a good conscience, john.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> That shows sensitivity and a good conscience, john.



Well, I have my weaknesses. I have been known to risk flipping the Mini rather than hit suicidal squirrels too. 

Maybe there is karma after all


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Well, I have my weaknesses. I have been known to risk flipping the Mini rather than hit suicidal squirrels too.
> 
> Maybe there is karma after all


I think you are a much nicer, kinder man than you would like us to believe.


----------



## john117

In honor of the premier of the 4th season of Game of Thrones...










This life feels like a science fair project gone bad...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> This life feels like a science fair project gone bad...


Lol, John. 

Talk to us about it. Some of us are still going to be up for a while.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Lol, John.
> 
> Talk to us about it. Some of us are still going to be up for a while.


This specific part of my life feels like one of these car racing highlights you see on Youtube. You know that the car is going to hit the barrier at 150mph and someone will be carried out in a stretcher or worse, but still you want to see it. 

Experimental psychology is all about using trivial little observations, experiments, and measurements to validate theories. For example, how does the brain perceive words, a letter at a time or a word at a time. What happens if a letter is missing? So we set up a couple signs, one says "D CK CROSSING" next to a road and everyone understands it's DUCK. That gives us incredible insight.

I'm kind of doing the same. I still can't believe, several years into the Rapture, that completely blowing away 25 good years of marriage is worth it to J2. So I try different subtle and not so subtle behavior changes and try to see what the impact is. What I'm seeing is someone so hell bent on avoiding intimacy that nothing, absolutely nothing would get her to see she's wrong, let alone change her mind. 

She's not having an EA or PA (the house security system is too good, designed for teenagers in mind ), she rarely sees people since she works from home, and even when she does she's not a people person. She's 'happy' to work long hours, do housework, and watch TV alone every day. 

Yet no alarm bells ever go off in her head *that this is not normal*.

Today she spent 2 hours on the phone with relatives in Frigidistan. One of her relatives is married to a Frigidistan native and they live in Germany. The guy is quite wealthy back home, unfortunately he's got some terminal disease (smoking/COPD I think) and he'll be gone in a couple years. So the discussion goes whether the niece should divorce the guy now and take her chances with his property in divorce court back home, versus waiting for him to bite the dust and going the inheritance route where women don't get the same share as men thanks to Islamic law.

She even told me much of it, the consensus is to go for divorce and 50/50 versus probate/estate. so I "wondered out loud" about what she'd do if it were me and she said she'd divorce me in a hurry :rofl: I tried to explain community property but it did not sink in.

Man you can't WRITE comedy this good. You can't BUY it. It's LIVE, only on TAM :lol:


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I expect you'll appreciate this - subtle dynamic as well. 

Tonight M2 and I went to 24 hour fitness to hit the treadmills and also play racquetball. Sex and racquetball have some interesting similarities for us. 

M2 gets a dopamine rush playing r-ball. Her pupils dilate. She gets excited. It's physiologically her favorite activity. The one challenge in playing is to keep it challenging but not demoralizing for her. She knows I'm better, but is allergic to charity. So I do a bunch of subtle things that keep the game exciting but not crushing. If she consistently scored 1-2 points to my 15, she couldn't enjoy the game because she would be certain I was bored. 

*The only thing that can dilute her enjoyment, is the perception that it isn't fun for me. *

My default preference is to run first and play second. But tonight we hadn't reserved a court, and when we got there one was empty. When she asked if we could play first, I immediately realized (when you like something you want to do it right away) that saying yes would feed the theme of - this is good for me too. So I did. 

After the second game I said one more. She was good with that. End of the third game, I said - that was so good I want another if you're up for a fourth. She was and it was great. Then we ran. 

So here's the thing. If you change the game from r-ball to sex: everything is exactly true in reverse. And M2 is every bit as skilled in managing those subtle engagement and enjoyment cues. 

If you put me on a court with a random unknown opponent whose skill level matches M2's - my enjoyment would be a 2-3 out of 10. But seeing her smile, hearing her say - I cannot believe you were able to get to that ball, makes it more like an 8. 

Is sex - the same for her? I can't be certain. It's hard to believe she manages all those cues so well, if it isn't similar.....



john117 said:


> This specific part of my life feels like one of these car racing highlights you see on Youtube. You know that the car is going to hit the barrier at 150mph and someone will be carried out in a stretcher or worse, but still you want to see it.
> 
> Experimental psychology is all about using trivial little observations, experiments, and measurements to validate theories. For example, how does the brain perceive words, a letter at a time or a word at a time. What happens if a letter is missing? So we set up a couple signs, one says "D CK CROSSING" next to a road and everyone understands it's DUCK. That gives us incredible insight.
> 
> I'm kind of doing the same. I still can't believe, several years into the Rapture, that completely blowing away 25 good years of marriage is worth it to J2. So I try different subtle and not so subtle behavior changes and try to see what the impact is. What I'm seeing is someone so hell bent on avoiding intimacy that nothing, absolutely nothing would get her to see she's wrong, let alone change her mind.
> 
> She's not having an EA or PA (the house security system is too good, designed for teenagers in mind ), she rarely sees people since she works from home, and even when she does she's not a people person. She's 'happy' to work long hours, do housework, and watch TV alone every day.
> 
> Yet no alarm bells ever go off in her head *that this is not normal*.
> 
> Today she spent 2 hours on the phone with relatives in Frigidistan. One of her relatives is married to a Frigidistan native and they live in Germany. The guy is quite wealthy back home, unfortunately he's got some terminal disease (smoking/COPD I think) and he'll be gone in a couple years. So the discussion goes whether the niece should divorce the guy now and take her chances with his property in divorce court back home, versus waiting for him to bite the dust and going the inheritance route where women don't get the same share as men thanks to Islamic law.
> 
> She even told me much of it, the consensus is to go for divorce and 50/50 versus probate/estate. so I "wondered out loud" about what she'd do if it were me and she said she'd divorce me in a hurry :rofl: I tried to explain community property but it did not sink in.
> 
> Man you can't WRITE comedy this good. You can't BUY it. It's LIVE, only on TAM :lol:


----------



## MEM2020

A really good friend of mine had a ten year relationship with a beautiful woman from Iranistan. Near the end of there time together, an author he really loved committed suicide. At the time he was under a lot of financial pressure and was generally a bit depressed. They weren't married, however she was in his will to the tune of 1.5 million dollars. 
-----
Steve: I hope I never get to the point, where I'm so overwhelmed by challenges that I want to take my own life. 
GF: Well, I hope if that ever happened, you'd. Ale sure that all your affairs were in order. 

This is a woman with a masters degree, and enough social graces that you could take her to an embassy party. But - there you have it. 

He and I alternatively howled in laughter and cringed in dismay at that response. 



john117 said:


> This specific part of my life feels like one of these car racing highlights you see on Youtube. You know that the car is going to hit the barrier at 150mph and someone will be carried out in a stretcher or worse, but still you want to see it.
> 
> Experimental psychology is all about using trivial little observations, experiments, and measurements to validate theories. For example, how does the brain perceive words, a letter at a time or a word at a time. What happens if a letter is missing? So we set up a couple signs, one says "D CK CROSSING" next to a road and everyone understands it's DUCK. That gives us incredible insight.
> 
> I'm kind of doing the same. I still can't believe, several years into the Rapture, that completely blowing away 25 good years of marriage is worth it to J2. So I try different subtle and not so subtle behavior changes and try to see what the impact is. What I'm seeing is someone so hell bent on avoiding intimacy that nothing, absolutely nothing would get her to see she's wrong, let alone change her mind.
> 
> She's not having an EA or PA (the house security system is too good, designed for teenagers in mind ), she rarely sees people since she works from home, and even when she does she's not a people person. She's 'happy' to work long hours, do housework, and watch TV alone every day.
> 
> Yet no alarm bells ever go off in her head *that this is not normal*.
> 
> Today she spent 2 hours on the phone with relatives in Frigidistan. One of her relatives is married to a Frigidistan native and they live in Germany. The guy is quite wealthy back home, unfortunately he's got some terminal disease (smoking/COPD I think) and he'll be gone in a couple years. So the discussion goes whether the niece should divorce the guy now and take her chances with his property in divorce court back home, versus waiting for him to bite the dust and going the inheritance route where women don't get the same share as men thanks to Islamic law.
> 
> She even told me much of it, the consensus is to go for divorce and 50/50 versus probate/estate. so I "wondered out loud" about what she'd do if it were me and she said she'd divorce me in a hurry :rofl: I tried to explain community property but it did not sink in.
> 
> Man you can't WRITE comedy this good. You can't BUY it. It's LIVE, only on TAM :lol:


----------



## Lyris

Who's your GoT character, John? I'm guessing it's Tyrion. Or maybe Eddard Stark. MEM, you're definitely an Eddard. Married to a Cersei.

I'm married to a Jaime Lannister, lucky for me. And I myself am an intriguing combination of Brienne and Cersei.


----------



## LongWalk

Lyris,

For us who are not familiar with those characters we are clueless


----------



## Lyris

One remedy for that LongWalk. And it starts tonight!


----------



## john117

Definitely Tyrion, with possibly Littlefinger as a distant backup... I do have a Tyrion bobble head on my desk at work...


----------



## john117

So, MEM, did Steve end up splitting with his GF?

All this goes to prove you that you should NEVER ever seriously date anyone from outside your own culture or a similar culture without a solid understanding of what you're in for.

There are some parts of the world that I feel comfortable about because i've lived there, travelled there, or know lots of people from there. I would have no problem dating from that pool. Say, most of Western Europe and the USA, India, Japan.

But there are vast parts of the world that for some reason or another I know nothing about at that level. Eastern Europe, South America, etc.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Grass is greener syndrome and High Fructose Porn Syrup and another one bites the dust...

I predict the new sex habit will die once he has the talk explaining how much he hates her guts and wants to be separated... wouldn't light my fire. ((((shrug)))

At least they only have one child who will be from a broken family.[/QUOTE]

awesome commentary Blonde. If you scroll through the thread, I mention hating her all the time. I also consistently say the grass is greener. I should reconsider my approach. Her laughing or eye rolling when I try to talk to her really does light my fire. And quitting counseling really was a turn on. Maybe you're right, I'm expecting too much.

you remind me of those sports radio hosts who didnt watch the game, but have a very strong opinion on it. facts, shmacts. right?


----------



## jld

I know you make light of it, John, but I am sure you were hurt by your wife's response.

Gosh, I could never be married to a man as self-centered as that. 

Truthfully, I could not be married to a man very self-centered at all.


----------



## john117

Hurt? Delighted is more like it. I couldn't stop smiling.

I mentioned experimental psychology and how meaningless little dots validate or shoot down whole theories. That was one more data point.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Hurt? Delighted is more like it. I couldn't stop smiling.
> 
> I mentioned experimental psychology and how meaningless little dots validate or shoot down whole theories. That was one more data point.


I am sure it hurts you on some level. You are surely not feeling-less. 

But yes, it is one more "data point" that will make the likely dissolution easier.


----------



## jld

BB, I think Blonde is just encouraging you to take more ownership of the problem. She is thinking of your little girl.

I think if she did not think you could turn this around, she would not still be urging you to try.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
They did end up splitting. 




john117 said:


> So, MEM, did Steve end up splitting with his GF?
> 
> All this goes to prove you that you should NEVER ever seriously date anyone from outside your own culture or a similar culture without a solid understanding of what you're in for.
> 
> There are some parts of the world that I feel comfortable about because i've lived there, travelled there, or know lots of people from there. I would have no problem dating from that pool. Say, most of Western Europe and the USA, India, Japan.
> 
> But there are vast parts of the world that for some reason or another I know nothing about at that level. Eastern Europe, South America, etc.


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> Blonde,
> Hold the presses.
> 
> You're forecasting marital bliss for a guy who has TOTALLY rug swept a blatant multi year PA.
> 
> You think your marriage would have recovered if you had rug swept Mr. Blondes affairs?


No, I missed the PA part. What I read is that she had a male friend- no PA.

Is that ^^ true T2?


----------



## john117

You're reading way too much into BB's motives. 

Everything has a root cause and it snowballs from there.


----------



## Blonde

BB2 is a CSA victim and so was I. We picked our H's because something about them felt "familiar". BB2 is not Mr Perfect and God's gift to the world married to an evil empathy deficient shrew. I predict his future relationships will be equally troubled until he works on whatever it is inside himself that keeps him so unhappy and feeeeeeeeeeeling rejected, unloved, and disrespected.

The huge blessing of my M is that we are a "matched set". The deficiencies are quite equal and "iron sharpens iron". I am smart enough to know that "grass is greener" is an illusion and delusion and reading about messy painful subsequent rebound relationships (without a LOT of personal recovery and introspection work) proves it.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> You're reading way too much into BB's motives.
> 
> Everything has a root cause and it snowballs from there.


BB FEELS rejected, unloved,

and he blames his wife for his feelings

His W is far from perfect as is every human being on this planet but IMO the source of BB's feelings is not his wife and until he deals with his own root issues, he is not going to make anyone a very good H nor father for that matter


----------



## john117

No disagreement, but how would fault be assigned?

Nobody's perfect but I'm leaning towards 80/20 her fault rather than 50/50. 

In her case I doubt she acknowledges there is an issue to begin with so it's 0/0. 

You can negotiate 50/50 vs 80/20 but not 80/20 vs 0/0.

The CSA by itself is the major item here but if she's rug sweeping it she's at fault big time for not dealing with the past. Did it stop being an issue during courtship and early on?


----------



## Blonde

I lay most of this at BB's feet. His wife adjusted to the things he actually COMMUNICATED about. They are having sex twice a week now (up from once every 40 days).

BB makes the choice to brood instead of communicate so it's on him.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> About as much as I have, i.e. not much. It's not really projecting, but merely a manifestation of priorities within the marriage.
> 
> A pretty clear sign of check-out-itis if you ask me. J2 could end world hunger tomorrow for all i care and it wouldn't change my view of her one bit. I doubt it's different for others...


John, unlike others I have a hard time getting a handle on your relationship dynamics. That the rift goes back to a dispute over your DD studying graphic arts versus pre-med... it does not compute for me. I can't identify. Have had 4 children so far go to college and I am one who really does encourage medical careers (for the job security) but I can't imagine a child's career path ever being a "divorce my spouse" issue :scratchhead:

Perhaps this is cultural? DD21's fiance is an only Chinese child and he made his TIGER parents (esp the MOM!!!) a powerpoint presentation of all the advantages to procure their blessing on the engagement :circle:


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
My bad, you had mentioned the CSA connection earlier. Your empathy for Boston's wife and hostility towards Boston are understandable. 

Just one more example of a more (financially) powerful man extorting sex from a (financially dependent) weaker spouse. 

Except it isn't true. Love is more powerful than money. And in that area - B2 runs the marriage. 

The only thing Boston and T2 have in common is that they've both given the notion of unconditional love a try. And the main difference between them is that Boston learned that it doesn't work and is adjusting his approach accordingly. 




Blonde said:


> BB2 is a CSA victim and so was I. We picked our H's because something about them felt "familiar". BB2 is not Mr Perfect and God's gift to the world married to an evil empathy deficient shrew. I predict his future relationships will be equally troubled until he works on whatever it is inside himself that keeps him so unhappy and feeeeeeeeeeeling rejected, unloved, and disrespected.
> 
> The huge blessing of my M is that we are a "matched set". The deficiencies are quite equal and "iron sharpens iron". I am smart enough to know that "grass is greener" is an illusion and delusion and reading about messy painful subsequent rebound relationships (without a LOT of personal recovery and introspection work) proves it.


----------



## john117

Ah, dynamics. It is cultural. The only acceptable professions in Frigidistan are doctor or engineer. J2 already felt the heat for studying mathematics while the other siblings went the doctor route. 

But while I agree with the premise I also knew how talented J3 is. I deal with designers myself (J3 is not in graphic arts) and know talent when I see it. Being able to draw correct 3d perspective in 5th grade art class is a pretty good indicator


----------



## Blonde

I may be reading between the lines too much but my recollection is that they got into MC because BB was harsh with W and child

I am not opposed to D here but I am seeing it from BB2's side. BB changed external behaviors but he has a heart which grows harder toward her all the time. BB blames her for their problems with a multitude of allies here to support him. Someone else's panties look promising for greener grass. 

Better to end it NOW than add more children/years/hurt. They are both young and have the potential for a long future with someone else.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Blonde said:


> No, I missed the PA part. What I read is that she had a male friend- no PA.
> 
> Is that ^^ true T2?


I'm satisfied there was no PA based on over hour interrogations each with stories matching verbatim and my wife was not aware he contacted me weeks after DDAY..it was a friendship that ended up being a one way EA or an *inappropriate relationship* on both of their parts. I am good with the OM he apologized for butting into my life and hers. He talked and talked about all the details for over an hour, I detected nothing but honesty and when challenged he was remorseful on his choice to get too involved in her life.

For me that is a non-issue I have moved on from it so has she. He is no longer in our life.

The guy is cool he and I could actually be friends, we think alike.
We both see my wife a bullheaded person.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> Ah, dynamics. It is cultural. The only acceptable professions in Frigidistan are doctor or engineer. J2 already felt the heat for studying mathematics while the other siblings went the doctor route.
> 
> But while I agree with the premise I also knew how talented J3 is. I deal with designers myself (J3 is not in graphic arts) and know talent when I see it. Being able to draw correct 3d perspective in 5th grade art class is a pretty good indicator


So more like drafting/CAD? Architect?

My DD16 is artistic but doesn't know what she wants to major in college but "not art". Doesn't want to be a starving artist.

I've had lots of practice "letting go" with my kids. DS 25 dropped out of college at age 19. Had full ride scholarships for Civil Engineering which was a very good match with his talents IMO. H was good at kicking him out of the house post drop-out while I had flashbacks to his baby-hood and too much tendency to coddle... He's M to a highly paid ER PA and he's the SAHD doing some building contractor work on the side.


----------



## Blonde

Trying2figureitout said:


> I'm satisfied there was no PA based on over hour interrogations each with stories matching verbatim and my wife was not aware he contacted me weeks after DDAY..it was a friendship that ended up being a one way EA or an *inappropriate relationship* on both of their parts. I am good with the OM he apologized for butting into my life and hers. He talked and talked about all the details for over an hour, I detected nothing but honesty and when challenged he was remorseful on his choice to get too involved in her life.
> 
> For me that is a non-issue I have moved on from it so has she. He is no longer in our life.
> 
> The guy is cool he and I could actually be friends, we think alike.
> We both see my wife a bullheaded person.


JFTR I support a HARD 180 and complete cessation of doormat behavior/coddling when a spouse is cheating. 

BTDT got the t-shirt and still M to my H who chose me over the septic tank ("the grass looks greener over the septic tank" -Erma Bombeck)


----------



## Anon Pink

I miss Erma! I wonder how she would reply to many of the threads here.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> I may be reading between the lines too much but my recollection is that they got into MC because BB was harsh with W and child
> 
> I am not opposed to D here but I am seeing it from BB2's side. BB changed external behaviors but he has a heart which grows harder toward her all the time. BB blames her for their problems with a multitude of allies here to support him. Someone else's panties look promising for greener grass.
> 
> Better to end it NOW than add more children/years/hurt. They are both young and have the potential for a long future with someone else.


Yep this is why I can't take your advice serious. We entered mc because of how I am with my child? ...again see my analogy of the sports broadcaster not watching the game and then proclaiming to know all about it. You should really reconsider reading the thread before you continue to make things up. 

I've been very transparent on here about my faults. It's not funny to me when she sarcastically laughs when I express myself. Marriage counseling isn't worth her time. She won't talk to me about how she feels. I'm on an island with one month if improved sex. I don't want someone else or greener grass. Remember, she told ex she misses him. I'm not the one missing or seeking greener pastors. I'm seeking a hint of transparency .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
I cringed reading this. I hope your childhood was not as ugly a place as his and I'm sorry if I've been harsh with you in a manner that triggers. 

I've read Boston's stuff carefully and have some observations. 

Resentment stew

Ingredients:
- One spouse who doesn't (seem to) love you nearly as much as you love them 
- Two cups of high financial expectations 
- One gallon of sexual rejection 
- One adorable, cute, boisterous, loud child 
- One pint of spousal hostility 
- One quart of companionship 
- One cup of spousal affection 
- Half a cup of MC
- One quart of indifference 
- A cup of dismissive eye rolling
- A half quart of cold silence 
- A dash of disloyalty with an old flame 
- Half a cup of passion 

Place the ingredients in a mid sized home. Stir and then shut the doors and simmer for two years. 

Eventually the stew bubbles over as the resentment overwhelms love. 




Blonde said:


> My H was sexually abused MEM. Either homosexually violated or exposed to hard core porn in pre-school based on acting out (corn-holing himself in the barn). His dad pushed porn on him- his bedroom walls were plastered with centerfolds by age 12. And his dad "taught" him how to "love women" by molesting a 12 year old neighbor girl in front of H when he was 12.
> 
> CSA victims pick someone who is a "match"
> 
> That BB was harsh with their 3 yo--> huge red flag to me. As well as how he represents and interprets his wife.
> 
> Not sure he has the empathy you think he does?
> 
> Bothers me that he has a huge cadre of people all agreeing with his rejection of his wife while they give him a pass...


----------



## WorkingOnMe

BostonBruins32 said:


> Yep this is why I can't take your advice serious. We entered mc because of how I am with my child? ...again see my analogy of the sports broadcaster not watching the game and then proclaiming to know all about it. You should really reconsider reading the thread before you continue to make things up.
> 
> I've been very transparent on here about my faults. It's not funny to me when she sarcastically laughs when I express myself. Marriage counseling isn't worth her time. She won't talk to me about how she feels. I'm on an island with one month if improved sex. I don't want someone else or greener grass. Remember, she told ex she misses him. I'm not the one missing or seeking greener pastors. I'm seeking a hint of transparency .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, ignoring Blonde's tangent into the unknown....

How was the weekend BB? Did you talk with her? Did you tell her what you're thinking now?


----------



## MEM2020

B,
When are you going to offer B2 the same level of transparency that you want from her? And that means the kind of transparency that will either kill the bond, or give you an honest shot at rebuilding it. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Yep this is why I can't take your advice serious. We entered mc because of how I am with my child? ...again see my analogy of the sports broadcaster not watching the game and then proclaiming to know all about it. You should really reconsider reading the thread before you continue to make things up.
> 
> I've been very transparent on here about my faults. It's not funny to me when she sarcastically laughs when I express myself. Marriage counseling isn't worth her time. She won't talk to me about how she feels. I'm on an island with one month if improved sex. I don't want someone else or greener grass. Remember, she told ex she misses him. I'm not the one missing or seeking greener pastors. I'm seeking a hint of transparency .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

> - One pint of spousal hostility
> 
> - One quart of indifference
> 
> - A cup of dismissive eye rolling
> 
> - A half quart of cold silence


I don't know about you BB but I shop at Costco for all of the above. Saves a lot of money :rofl:


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> 
> When are you going to offer B2 the same level of transparency that you want from her? And that means the kind of transparency that will either kill the bond, or give you an honest shot at rebuilding it.



Can she handle the transparency?


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> So, ignoring Blonde's tangent into the unknown....
> 
> How was the weekend BB? Did you talk with her? Did you tell her what you're thinking now?


I did talk to her. I told her that some space between us could be a worthwhile. She was upset and asked why. 

Basically I explained that there appears be a gap between my perception of change vs her perception of change/improvement. I honestly thought that I was making great changes in improving myself as a husband,father,man, etc. Changes through patience with B3, even split on chores cleanup at home, personal improvement through fitness, offering space without questioning when she is seemingly stressed out after work, etc etc. I didn't mention anything about physical touch or offering her more affection at random (without sexual expectation), as this is something I feel like doing vs doing it because she wants me to.

I explained that the sarcastic laughing or eye rolling is hurtful, when I'm trying to express myself. I told her that her insistence that I attend marriage counseling was fine, but her leaving it after one toufgh session on herself was not ok. I stated that she needs to go back, with or without me in order to help me improve this marriage. I told her that I really have no clue what she desires or needs in a marriage. I told her that I'm actually very ok with her not even knowing what she needs. I explained that I did not marry her because I wanted a wife or a family, but rather I married her because I loved her and felt this connection I had never felt before. I told her that I am a not a mind reader and that in fact I suck at understanding how people feel just by looking at them. I told her that I have a lot of work to do on myself. Told her I loved her and I'm sorry that it's come to this. 

She cried. I didnt. that was that.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Can she handle the transparency?


i used to worry about that. I cant now.


----------



## john117

She sounds confused and stressed... Is she open to IC first then MC?

It sounds she may have an omen or two about where this is all headed and may even want to address some/all the issues.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
That was a good first step. Are you going to rent a place? 

I hope you don't buy into this nonsense that women don't know:
- what they want
- why they do/don't do certain things 

For instance, regarding her comparisons to your most successful friends. It could just be an autopilot type thing. She see them as your marital role model and that's why she talks about them. 

That said, if you did something analogous:
Let's say you befriended a married couple where the wife retained the body of a fashion model after having kids. And further that she was the only mom in your social group who was more fit than B2. And yet, she was the only friend whose figure you discussed and you made it clear that - that's what you wanted.....

From a practical standpoint, it's not an ideal analogy. But from an emotional standpoint, it's dead on. They're both about social status. 

The point of this isn't to win. It's to try to create understanding. 


[/B]


BostonBruins32 said:


> I did talk to her. I told her that some space between us could be a worthwhile. She was upset and asked why.
> 
> Basically I explained that there appears be a gap between my perception of change vs her perception of change/improvement. I honestly thought that I was making great changes in improving myself as a husband,father,man, etc. Changes through patience with B3, even split on chores cleanup at home, personal improvement through fitness, offering space without questioning when she is seemingly stressed out after work, etc etc. I didn't mention anything about physical touch or offering her more affection at random (without sexual expectation), as this is something I feel like doing vs doing it because she wants me to.
> 
> I explained that the sarcastic laughing or eye rolling is hurtful, when I'm trying to express myself. I told her that her insistence that I attend marriage counseling was fine, but her leaving it after one toufgh session on herself was not ok. I stated that she needs to go back, with or without me in order to help me improve this marriage. I told her that I really have no clue what she desires or needs in a marriage. I told her that I'm actually very ok with her not even knowing what she needs. I explained that I did not marry her because I wanted a wife or a family, but rather I married her because I loved her and felt this connection I had never felt before. I told her that I am a not a mind reader and that in fact I suck at understanding how people feel just by looking at them. I told her that I have a lot of work to do on myself. Told her I loved her and I'm sorry that it's come to this.
> 
> She cried. I didnt. that was that.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> I did talk to her. I told her that some space between us could be a worthwhile. She was upset and asked why.
> 
> Basically I explained that there appears be a gap between my perception of change vs her perception of change/improvement. I honestly thought that I was making great changes in improving myself as a husband,father,man, etc. Changes through patience with B3, even split on chores cleanup at home, personal improvement through fitness, offering space without questioning when she is seemingly stressed out after work, etc etc. I didn't mention anything about physical touch or offering her more affection at random (without sexual expectation), as this is something I feel like doing vs doing it because she wants me to.
> 
> I explained that the sarcastic laughing or eye rolling is hurtful, when I'm trying to express myself. I told her that her insistence that I attend marriage counseling was fine, but her leaving it after one toufgh session on herself was not ok. I stated that she needs to go back, with or without me in order to help me improve this marriage. I told her that I really have no clue what she desires or needs in a marriage. I told her that I'm actually very ok with her not even knowing what she needs. I explained that I did not marry her because I wanted a wife or a family, but rather I married her because I loved her and felt this connection I had never felt before. I told her that I am a not a mind reader and that in fact I suck at understanding how people feel just by looking at them. I told her that I have a lot of work to do on myself. Told her I loved her and I'm sorry that it's come to this.
> 
> She cried. I didnt. that was that.


Well done Boston. Now it will stew for a while. It's grow up time in the Boston house.


----------



## Tron

Anon beat me to it, but yes. Time to let it stew and see if there is any movement. 

You might start looking for a place to temporarily land for a month or two, just in case it's necessary. 

For some people it takes an actual physical separation to shock them into getting the ball rolling.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Well done Boston. Now it will stew for a while. It's grow up time in the Boston house.


Its tough. I dont want her to feel bad. We both need to grow up.


----------



## MEM2020

AP,
Yes. 

She needs to initiate the next conversation - whenever she's ready. And when she does, he needs to let her free form it until she's empty. And then he needs to limit himself to a few key questions. And she seems to have conditioned B to accept 'I don't know' as a good faith response. 

- Why did you drop out of counseling?
- I know that you know I had changed my mind about a second child. I believe that a second child is likely your highest priority in life. Given that, why have you chosen not to have a direct discussion with me about it? 
- I think you hoped that if I was better with B3 and more helpful around the house, that you would love me more. But it didn't really make a difference. And I really think that's why you feel I'm not much improved. Because the whole damn point was for you to feel better about being married to me. But you don't. And that's why you say - I haven't improved much. Cause, in the way that matters to you - being more lovable/desirable as a husband, I haven't. (That's a very high intensity ping - the echoes that return from it will tell you a lot)
- It's been nice that you've been letting me have sex with you lately (this is a very deliberate choice of words). But here's the thing. Its obvious that you don't love or desire me more - so ummmm - awkward as this question is - why are you letting me have sex with you at a rate 5-10 times more often? 

B,
Any question that produces intense emotion - is linked to a very real issue. Crying, furious accusations that the question itself is outrageous, etc. 

This might help a bit:
I love you, and because of that I intensely dislike upsetting you. The thing is, I'm not going to keep flying blind through this marriage. Maybe the MC could have asked in a nicer way. (This is indeed what happens when one person demands counseling and then unilaterally quits). 




Anon Pink said:


> Well done Boston. Now it will stew for a while. It's grow up time in the Boston house.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Its tough. I dont want her to feel bad. We both need to grow up.


Being a grown means that sometimes you have to let your loved ones feel pain and sometimes you have to move to assuage the pain. You're new as a parent but you already know that behavior doesn't change until NOT changing is more painful than changing.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Just remember BB you cannot force someone to love you in ways you need. Only you can show love in ways you want.

Separation sends a signal..."Danger Will Robinson" but it in essence in most cases is the first step to divorce.

Your wife has a choice now...don't be surprised if she calls you on it.


----------



## Anon Pink

Yes because god forbid you insist upon being married to someone who actually loves you!


----------



## john117

Being the data driven type I wonder what percentage of separations result in kiss & make up vs the big D....


----------



## Trying2figureitout

CharlieParker said:


> New evidence says 79% of couples who separate end up divorcing - USATODAY.com


Separation is really only valid if you are yelling at each other that communication absolutely falters. Then there is no good reason to stay together and see if things calm down being apart for a spell to get to a point you can communicate.

In a marriage with communication (like BB or mine or even Johns) regardless of whether you agree or not...separation IS NOT the answer, and is a cop out in not facing and addressing the issues in a round about way of getting the other party to 'miss you"....equivalent of I'm taking my ball and you cannot play.

Even if you get back together the relationship has that as occurring. I wouldn't trust my spouse after an act like that.

I'm surprised its 79%. Should be 90+%.

1. Marriage
2. Divorce 

...are the only real honest choices.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Anon Pink said:


> Yes because god forbid you insist upon being married to someone who actually loves you!


To love you in ways you need.


----------



## MEM2020

AP,
I can only imagine how frightened M2 became as sex gradually got more painful. 

So - I'll describe what it's like from the other side of this fence - the receiving end of a really difficult message. 

In the moment two years ago:
- Intense gratitude that she trusted me enough to tell me. 
- Followed quickly by moderate anger that she had waited so long. - Followed by the distress and guilt that comes from not having noticed and not having created more trust. 

And periodically since then:
Love and respect for her being transparent about the whole situation. Her occasional anxiety about it, the fact she doesn't Orgasm even half the time anymore. 

It's raw. It feels bad to me - that she doesn't O. That sometimes she doesn't even get that turned on. I know that's partly me. I know that with a new partner, or with me having more edge, she'd be more turned on. 

Still, I far prefer a raw feed of reality over a cinematic illusion replete with special effects. And prize the partner with the spine to say what's what - without the up spin of sugar or down spin of malice. 








Anon Pink said:


> Yes because god forbid you insist upon being married to someone who actually loves you!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trying2figureitout said:


> In a marriage with *communication *(like BB or mine or even Johns) regardless of whether you agree or not...separation IS NOT the answer, and is a cop out in not facing and addressing the issues in a round about way of getting the other party to 'miss you"....equivalent of I'm taking my ball and you cannot play.


You do realize that communication requires more than mere words, right? Because if they are not telling you the truth, there is not real communication.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tall Average Guy said:


> You do realize that communication requires more than mere words, right? Because if they are not telling you the truth, there is not real communication.


I disagree...unless she is refusing to listen ever there is communication. 

Also she is not deaf


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Let's just say - you actually have a sincere conversation during which your lord and master says:
- It doesn't feel good when you touch me, I'm sorry. I feel bad about it, but it just doesn't. 
- I don't know if it will ever change.
- But I do love you. And I want to stay married. If we can maybe keep the long skin crawling hugs to a minimum, that would be considerate of you. 
I do want you to treat me like your wife and do the little acts of service I ask, and buy me presents on holidays - my iPads getting a bit slow....





Trying2figureitout said:


> To love you in ways you need.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes.

Real Communication is the alignment of words with actions. Ideally with the actions containing the lions share of the message....




Tall Average Guy said:


> You do realize that communication requires more than mere words, right? Because if they are not telling you the truth, there is not real communication.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> 1. Marriage
> 2. Divorce
> 
> ...are the only real honest choices.



3. Advantage Of
4. Revenge


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree...unless she is refusing to listen ever there is communication.


Of course you disagree. To do otherwise would mean being honest with yourself. Communication requires an honest exchange and honest recognition. You have no communication because she is not telling you the truth and you refuse to acknwledge what she has communicated through her actions.

It is like she is argung in German while you are arguing in Mandarin. 



> Also she is not deaf


Does not mean she is listening.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

MEM11363 said:


> I do want you to treat me like your wife and do the little acts of service I ask, and buy me presents on holidays - my iPads getting a bit slow....


... which makes my communications with the other man difficult to manage.


----------



## LongWalk

If woman is repulsed by her husband's touch and has been for several years, then there are varying scenarios:

1) It's medical condition. Intercourse causes pain. She submitted to intercourse that was unbearable and destroyed the desire for any sexual intimacy, including oral sex, etc. If the husband were dying of cancer, she might consent to holding his hand during the final days.

2) The wife is not attracted because has lost respect for her husband. Can he regain respect? Sometimes. Deciding to divorce is one strategy that may work.

3) The wife is actually in love with someone else.

4) The wife is asexual or lesbian and those feelings have become stronger, killing off the bisexual or heterosexual era of her life.

5) The wife loves the husband and would have sex but for resentment about which she is unwilling to speak.

6) The wife's liminal mind wants a new mate.

If the problem has dragged on for a long period without any fruitful discussion, then divorce is a rational solution. Ad nauseam discussion on TAM is perhaps a release valve but sooner or later the boiler must burst. Alternatively the husband's spirit is crushed.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

LongWalk said:


> If woman is repulsed by her husband's touch and has been for several years, then there are varying scenarios:
> 
> 1) It's medical condition. Intercourse causes pain. She submitted to intercourse that was unbearable and destroyed the desire for any sexual intimacy, including oral sex, etc. If the husband were dying of cancer, she might consent to holding his hand during the final days.
> 
> 2) The wife is not attracted because has lost respect for her husband. Can he regain respect? Sometimes. Deciding to divorce is one strategy that may work.
> 
> 3) The wife is actually in love with someone else.
> 
> 4) The wife is asexual or lesbian and those feelings have become stronger, killing off the bisexual or heterosexual era of her life.
> 
> 5) The wife loves the husband and would have sex but for resentment about which she is unwilling to speak.
> 
> 6) The wife's liminal mind wants a new mate.
> 
> If the problem has dragged on for a long period without any fruitful discussion, then divorce is a rational solution. Ad nauseam discussion on TAM is perhaps a release valve but sooner or later the boiler must burst. Alternatively the husband's spirit is crushed.


My spirit is not crushed and my wife is not repulsed by my touch in fact seeks it when she needs comfort.

So touch and sex are completely different.

Also sex is a two way street not much is happening if I am not initiating which for the past couple years has been rare indeed.

So to assume she is repulsed by my touch is false.


----------



## MEM2020

I am glad you are healed. 

As for your backbone - I would judge it's a titanium alloy. I'm keenly familiar with that particular model. 

It's your venomous sting that I have a mild allergy too. 

Boston has a 'hate quotient' of zero. His issue ain't hate, never has been. It's fear. 

And that fear - has fvcked up his marriage more than any other single thing. 



Blonde said:


> on the surface, uglier actually
> 
> sexualized by daddy, brother, uncle, teachers, catholic school classmates, etc...
> 
> In my favor, I was never in denial that my childhood was abusive. H is. His daddy "loved" him and was afraid he was going to be homosexual because of the bizarre acting out so he was trying to teach H to "love women" (by criminal molestation of a 12 yo neighborhood child who had the misfortune to develop early.)
> 
> The unmet needs in childhood are respect and protection and a CSA victim tends to choose a M which fails to meet those needs.
> 
> I'm healed now and don't trigger much at all anymore. What you see is a backbone methinks. They say when you can think about the traumas without feeling the hurt, you have forgiven. I have forgiven. Have quite a good relationship with my brother. He was also a victim in so many ways...


----------



## john117

MEM, it's well founded fear. Not of the unknown after divorce, but of:

1. Why me and why her
2. How much is this all cost ME?
3. How about my kid?

If you're dealing with irrational people the above are child's play. My wife still thinks her 401(k) is safe from my tentacles. The Community Property Fairy needs to make a cameo appearance I suppose.

But dealing with rational people, 1 thru 3 above is a reasonable concern.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I worked like a dog full time for 25+ years! 

If you factor in my last 3 years of school - hard classes and a 20+ hour a week job - I worked like a dog for 28+ years. 

I would be sad and depressed to divide by two and part ways. But I would get over it. At her worst, M2's behavior was not tolerable. I still loved her. But I was gonna leave. 

And the thing is - I don't just love M2, I get her, and I'm good at her. Loving her is - sort of it's very own skill set. Fine by me.

Tonight - she insisted on a conversation about her hair style. Honestly at one point I began to hyperventilate because I was laughing so hard. 

And then we did that thing we do - substitutes for normal sex. And she raptured. That's two out of the last three times. 

What is someone who:
- pushes you to the breaking point then 
- makes you laugh so hard, so long you begin to hyperventilate then
- makes you cum so hard your ears ring and ring afterwards

A witch. She must be a witch. A catholic witch? Does such a thing exist? 

THIS is what I want for Boston. And this is why I push him to demonstrate the courage needed to - mesh with such a woman. 




john117 said:


> MEM, it's well founded fear. Not of the unknown after divorce, but of:
> 
> 1. Why me and why her
> 2. How much is this all cost ME?
> 3. How about my kid?
> 
> If you're dealing with irrational people the above are child's play. My wife still thinks her 401(k) is safe from my tentacles. The Community Property Fairy needs to make a cameo appearance I suppose.
> 
> But dealing with rational people, 1 thru 3 above is a reasonable concern.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
M2 is mostly rational. Truly. We don't battle over who is more important (she is), who is the alpha (she is) in the marriage. In any tie - we do it her way. 

Where we battle is:
- When she is putting me last. Not second (second is perfectly fine) but last or
- Behaving in a non constructive manner with the children (this is a NO GO with me)

That said: she's too harsh and I'm too soft (her words from just a couple days ago). So we drag each other to the middle....



QUOTE=john117;8089593]MEM, it's well founded fear. Not of the unknown after divorce, but of:

1. Why me and why her
2. How much is this all cost ME?
3. How about my kid?

If you're dealing with irrational people the above are child's play. My wife still thinks her 401(k) is safe from my tentacles. The Community Property Fairy needs to make a cameo appearance I suppose.

But dealing with rational people, 1 thru 3 above is a reasonable concern.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM, it must have been a good one. You are quite the poet tonight. :smthumbup:


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> M2 is mostly rational. Truly. We don't battle over who is more important (she is), who is the alpha (she is) in the marriage. In any tie - we do it her way.



I prefer military dogma . If you allow the other side a victory make sure they lose more than what they won is worth...

I am too soft. But I know how to get people to do what I want. She's 'hard' which usually means she can't modulate her emotions and that's all she wrote...


----------



## Lyris

MEM I want to ask you something a bit personal and it's absolutely fine if you don't want to answer. 

I've always been interested in your posts, ever since I joined TAM because they stand out so much. The way you talk about and understand and love your wife has always been fascinating to me. I don't think my own husband could really list so clearly everything about me the way you do about your wife and we've known each other intimately since high school. 

You've said several times that your wife doesn't feel much physical lust or desire for you. And you seem to take this completely in your stride, yet I have read post after post from both men and women who find this unacceptable and intolerable. 

What's the difference between you and all these other people? Why don't you mind? I'd like to understand because I think there's an imbalance in my relationship the other way - I think I'm more attracted to my husband than he is to me, although his sex drive is higher than mine so it balances out.


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris,
When you can read someone's mind everything gets amplified. Their love, admiration, jealously, anger, resentment and worst of all their disappointment. 

The thing is, when you have that connection, and your spouse is radiating a strong desire to take you to bed, you know that's as real as all the other stuff you pick up on. Knowing that M2 wants to connect with me is really big. 

*And afterwards she wants to lie in a tangle - and that matters just as much to me. Because that's what you do, if you like what you just did. *

M2 loves to touch and be touched by me. Overall she is really, really into me. And that - is what makes the lack of lust and consistent orgasm - ok. 

I hope this makes sense. 




Lyris said:


> MEM I want to ask you something a bit personal and it's absolutely fine if you don't want to answer.
> 
> I've always been interested in your posts, ever since I joined TAM because they stand out so much. The way you talk about and understand and love your wife has always been fascinating to me. I don't think my own husband could really list so clearly everything about me the way you do about your wife and we've known each other intimately since high school.
> 
> You've said several times that your wife doesn't feel much physical lust or desire for you. And you seem to take this completely in your stride, yet I have read post after post from both men and women who find this unacceptable and intolerable.
> 
> What's the difference between you and all these other people? Why don't you mind? I'd like to understand because I think there's an imbalance in my relationship the other way - I think I'm more attracted to my husband than he is to me, although his sex drive is higher than mine so it balances out.


----------



## MEM2020

Yeah. Really, really good. 



Anon Pink said:


> MEM, it must have been a good one. You are quite the poet tonight. :smthumbup:


----------



## Lyris

Thanks for indulging my nosiness MEM.


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> I am glad you are healed.
> 
> As for your backbone - I would judge it's a titanium alloy. I'm keenly familiar with that particular model.
> 
> It's your venomous sting that I have a mild allergy too.
> 
> Boston has a 'hate quotient' of zero. His issue ain't hate, never has been. It's fear.
> 
> And that fear - has fvcked up his marriage more than any other single thing.


Correction received. Boston does not hate his wife. Hate is not the opposite of Love. Apathy is the opposite of love. There is more hope to restore love from hate than from apathy.

IMO Boston's unhappiness is inside Boston and his wife is just the most convenient scapegoat. 

No matter how she adjusts and changes to please him, no matter how well she performs he will never be happy with her.


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> It's fear.
> 
> And that fear - has fvcked up his marriage more than any other single thing.


Fear? 

I hear contempt toward BB2 on the thread and unlike Bagdon BB2 does not defend his wife. He lets the roasting and putdowns continue unabated. Not fear. Contempt.

Contempt: The Number One Sign of Marital Trouble | Psychology Today


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Blonde said:


> Fear?
> 
> I hear contempt toward BB2 on the thread and unlike Bagdon BB2 does not defend his wife. He lets the roasting and putdowns continue unabated. Not fear. Contempt.
> 
> Contempt: The Number One Sign of Marital Trouble | Psychology Today


The problem lies with BB as much as BB2, once he realizes that and fixes his side of the street then things may get better.

I will defend/undrerstand "LD" women as to the fact that it took years of "neglect" to get them to a point where they refuse sex as frequently as their spouse wants and not find it enjoyable.

As to if that is fair or even true is another story..but for them its justification and all that matters at the moment. Accept the situation and figure out how to improve it.

The goal again is to melt the wall around their heart over time..which makes the woman vulnerable again to you..a tall order indeed.

Its easier for them to maintain the status quo...hence this forum

It easier to give up and divorce..hence the divorce stats


----------



## john117

One can justify anything - that doesn't make it right.


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> Fear?
> 
> 
> 
> I hear contempt toward BB2 on the thread and unlike Bagdon BB2 does not defend his wife. He lets the roasting and putdowns continue unabated. Not fear. Contempt.



What is there to defend?


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> What is there to defend?


Absolutely nothing.

She's a piece of trash who needs to be put out by the curbside with the garbage.

Way to prove my point John117


----------



## Blonde

I don't think she's really LD. She is orgasmic. If she felt love and passion, she would respond but that is not the way this is going. 

Maybe she can find someone who LOVES her and doesn't view her as a worthless gold digging reject?


----------



## Anon Pink

Blonde, I for one appreciate being the voice countering the consensus. Making the chorus prove their point and prompting a pause to think it through again.

Granted, in these threads we only hear one spouses take on things. But some facts really point to the truth of the matter.

Since they got married, she showed a lack of interest in sex except when she wanted a baby. 

Boston discussed and discussed this with his wife and he responded to all of her stated excuses and even responded to suggestions made here but it didn't have an impact.

Until she decided she was ready for another baby and now she is opening the gates a few times a week.

Those facts clearly, to me at least, point to the fact that she isn't listening to him, isn't hearing his pain and worry, isn't responding to what he needs and wants in a wife.

And let's not forget her weekend of leaving him for absolutely NO reason what so ever. 

No one is suggesting he kick her to the curb.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> Blonde, I for one appreciate being the voice countering the consensus. Making the chorus prove their point and prompting a pause to think it through again.
> 
> Granted, in these threads we only hear one spouses take on things. But some facts really point to the truth of the matter.
> 
> Since they got married, she showed a lack of interest in sex except when she wanted a baby.
> 
> Boston discussed and discussed this with his wife and he responded to all of her stated excuses and even responded to suggestions made here but it didn't have an impact.
> 
> Until she decided she was ready for another baby and now she is opening the gates a few times a week.
> 
> Those facts clearly, to me at least, point to the fact that she isn't listening to him, isn't hearing his pain and worry, isn't responding to what he needs and wants in a wife.
> 
> And let's not forget her weekend of leaving him for absolutely NO reason what so ever.
> 
> No one is suggesting he kick her to the curb.


I would also add that she was fine going to therapy as long as his issues were being discussed and dealt with. Once it came up that she might have an issue or two to deal with, she decided that therapy was no longer a good idea.

I don't think she is a bad person. I think she is unwilling to face some issues, likely in part due to her CSA. Without her doing that, I don't see the marriage surviving, regardless of what BB does.


----------



## Trickster

Well.....This is a long thread!


Most of the posters here have also posted on my many other threads...

My wife is without a doubt LD, she always was and always will be. Three and a half years ago, I wanted to change... That was the start of the rollercoaster ride of my life. 

After dozens of books hours on TAM, the 180, new hobby's, new friends, lunch dates with other women, it didn't change much. My wife complied with the sex I wanted, but the resentments built up to the point my wife told me she wasn't in love with me... 

During all this time, with my hiking group, volunteer work and all the new people in my circles, I see how they are, their personality, how they carry themselves, their careers and success, how they treat others....the list goes on. I see older married couples with a great marriage and see couples in an unhappy marriage. I realize the grass isn't greener... 

I think very few people have happier 2nd marriages..

After sex with my wife 2-3 X a month for 17 years, then 10x a month for 3 plus years, we are back to sex 3X a month... We made full circle.

Conclusion... My wife does love me. Not in the way I like, but it's still love. Now when we do have sex, there is no in love feeling (there never was) but she will O every time now. That's a good change. We are more affectionate than ever before...I don't understand that... My wife knows affection doesn't lead to sex anymore. Its two separate things....

I tried so hard to change my behavior to get love/sex in return and it was a total failure... My wife is LD..that's it....there is nothing I will ever do to change that....I would love a MC, but she doesn't want that...

I have relaxed a bit with my activities... I don't like what Blonde and Catherine say, but I am examining my actions...I see where I went wrong...Somehow, we are still together after 22 years...

So my wife an I focus on what we both want... We enjoy each others company and we both want an intact home for our daughter...We will never agree on the quantity of sex...why fight it...

I continue to do nice things for her like I always do and this past Saturday night she attacted me... She was flirting all evening...touching my butt and my pecker.. I kept telling her to stop teasing me and I kept backing away from her laughing....It was a great night for both of us...

We still decided to keep our open marriage. Don't know what will happen with that...I will never have a ONS. That is not my style... My wife says she wouldn't feel hurt as long as I don't go behind her back....When the time comes....if that time comes, then my wife will decide if we continue to have sex or not....That time may not ever happen... 

So I have my sad moments here and there. I am trying to focus on the good parts of our marriage. We do have many good points.... When I do that, it seems pretty easy...


----------



## WorkingOnMe

So you settled.


----------



## Trickster

WorkingOnMe said:


> So you settled.


Yes:crazy:


----------



## MEM2020

Lifestyle digger. Not gold digger. Subtle but important difference. 



Blonde said:


> I don't think she's really LD. She is orgasmic. If she felt love and passion, she would respond but that is not the way this is going.
> 
> Maybe she can find someone who LOVES her and doesn't view her as a worthless gold digging reject?


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
FWIW: My guess is that Boston is currently intensely conflicted. 

He deeply dislikes upsetting B2 - because he loves her. She doesn't cry much, so when she does it disturbs him. 




Blonde said:


> I don't think she's really LD. She is orgasmic. If she felt love and passion, she would respond but that is not the way this is going.
> 
> Maybe she can find someone who LOVES her and doesn't view her as a worthless gold digging reject?


----------



## Lyris

Trying2figureitout said:


> The problem lies with BB as much as BB2, once he realizes that and fixes his side of the street then things may get better.
> 
> I will defend/undrerstand "LD" women as to the fact that it took years of "neglect" to get them to a point where they refuse sex as frequently as their spouse wants and not find it enjoyable.
> 
> As to if that is fair or even true is another story..but for them its justification and all that matters at the moment. Accept the situation and figure out how to improve it.
> 
> The goal again is to melt the wall around their heart over time..which makes the woman vulnerable again to you..a tall order indeed.
> 
> Its easier for them to maintain the status quo...hence this forum
> 
> It easier to give up and divorce..hence the divorce stats


I very often suspect that T2 is really Mrs T2 posting


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
The post below is from December of 2011. 

It doesn't feel like anything has really changed for you. 


-----------------------
December 6, 2011
Some of you know my story.

So tonight I got the "truth" out on my wife keep in mind this is now over TWO years from her original disconnect and ILYNILWYA speech. No cheating I'm aware of and yes I've snooped a lot. Last two months she seemed much closer to me but then I guess I pushed her a little too far last night by leaving her a gift bag with items and a "nice" note.

This was after I gave her items to help with libido...after that she seemed short with me so I pressed her on a reason tonight via text an hour later this was her response....

....I need time to fall in love with you again. That is my problem... (not a libido issue take the items back)

Keep in mind her and I had sex last time in July. Only 7 times in two years since ILYNILWY. Lately I had been pressuring her at bit at the two year point to make a decision of which way this was going... she seemed to be moving closer. Until tonight. At least I got clarity evidently its not her libido (Although I do believe she has a low libido... we only averaged 15-20 times per year before married (18 years ) she is now 45)

Keep in mind I've "fixed" all my behaviors already even gave up drinking cold turkey that night. She along time ago said you have done great..its me.

So what is the prognosis... dire? or Just wait her out? I'm getting tired of waiting for her to figure this out, I need sex this is sort of crazy!

Need advice. How should I proceed?
I still love her and we have two teenage boys.







Lyris said:


> I very often suspect that T2 is really Mrs T2 posting


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
You should re-read this thread. It's a very clear snapshot from December of 2011. 


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...interpret-text-my-wife-ladies-standpoint.html






Trying2figureitout said:


> The problem lies with BB as much as BB2, once he realizes that and fixes his side of the street then things may get better.
> 
> I will defend/undrerstand "LD" women as to the fact that it took years of "neglect" to get them to a point where they refuse sex as frequently as their spouse wants and not find it enjoyable.
> 
> As to if that is fair or even true is another story..but for them its justification and all that matters at the moment. Accept the situation and figure out how to improve it.
> 
> The goal again is to melt the wall around their heart over time..which makes the woman vulnerable again to you..a tall order indeed.
> 
> Its easier for them to maintain the status quo...hence this forum
> 
> It easier to give up and divorce..hence the divorce stats


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> You should re-read this thread. It's a very clear snapshot from December of 2011.
> 
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...interpret-text-my-wife-ladies-standpoint.html



I know that thread I am mostly the same the difference is back then she was in the EA now she isn't...big difference. 

I can see the whole landscape and the change from then until now. To the outside is seems similar inside its different. Mine is basically the journey of having her fall back love. Takes time and certain things to occur along the way. We are both changed from 2011 and that was a turning point.


----------



## Blonde

Trying2figureitout said:


> The problem lies with BB as much as BB2, once he realizes that and fixes his side of the street then things may get better.
> 
> I will defend/undrerstand "LD" women as to the fact that it took years of "neglect" to get them to a point where they refuse sex as frequently as their spouse wants and not find it enjoyable.


I learned on TAM that women who are cheating are monogamous with their lover so if a wife is depriving her H long term, it should not be pinned on LD. It is a huge red flag for cheating because *contrary to popular belief most women LIKE sex and DO have an appetite for it.
*


> "they refuse sex *as frequently as* their spouse wants"


 is not LD IMO. It's healthy boundaries. H could have sex twice a day every day (or probably 10X a day, actually)


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Blonde said:


> I learned on TAM that women who are cheating are monogamous with their lover so if a wife is depriving her H long term, it should not be pinned on LD. It is a huge red flag for cheating because *contrary to popular belief most women LIKE sex and DO have an appetite for it.
> *
> is not LD IMO. It's healthy boundaries. H could have sex twice a day every day (or probably 10X a day, actually)


Your reputation is so damaged at this point that it's impossible for anyone to know whether you're being sincere, snarky, sarcastic or what. Either way, there's some truth to this post.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Blonde said:


> I learned on TAM that women who are cheating are monogamous with their lover so if a wife is depriving her H long term, it should not be pinned on LD. It is a huge red flag for cheating because *contrary to popular belief most women LIKE sex and DO have an appetite for it.
> *
> is not LD IMO. It's healthy boundaries. H could have sex twice a day every day (or probably 10X a day, actually)


Most women like sex (until they don't) and have and DO appetite for it (until they don't)
The corollary is most women use sex for their own selfish reasons.

The real truth is:

most MEN LIKE sex and DO have an appetite for it. REGARDLESS and don't use sex as some weapon typically

It may not be LD its ND for women.. the way it is especially in a longer term marriage.
Hence this forum.

Truth again looking at it from the female perspective I can see why they go off of it. I think the ones that do are just stronger minded in a way and take their chances on the fall out.


----------



## Blonde

Trying2figureitout said:


> Most women like sex (until they don't) and have and DO appetite for it (until they don't)
> The corollary is most women use sex for their own selfish reasons.


^^centerfold syndrome and deep misunderstanding of what makes women tick


----------



## Blonde

Trying2figureitout said:


> most MEN LIKE sex and DO have an appetite for it. REGARDLESS and don't use sex as some weapon typically


no they just squander their sexual energy on porn because it is just so easy compared to a REAL woman

and then they get a HUGE chip on their shoulder because their wife is not a porn actress- always ready and turns on with the push of a button and turns off just as quick after he gets his rocks off...


----------



## Blonde

WorkingOnMe said:


> Your reputation is so damaged at this point that it's impossible for anyone to know whether you're being sincere, snarky, sarcastic or what. Either way, there's some truth to this post.


And yet I may be the ONLY one on this thread who has some understanding of living in BB2's shoes.

Fraid I don't have much respect for your opinions either WOM so we are even on that count. I find you misogynist.

ETA: Generally I don't do sarcasm nor snark.


----------



## MEM2020

This is a woman who:
- shaved her V
- was buying sexy lingerie
- was exchanging thousands of text messages a month with her friend - who lives locally 
- Was Monogamous - only having sex with the OM

When T2 confronted T3 about it 2+ years ago she faced him down. Refused to go NC with the OM and told T2 he was being controlling. And T2 - good acolyte that he is - came on TAM and told us that he wasn't going to be controlling. He had let her know how he felt about her relationship, but it was up to her to decide what to do. 


QUOTE=Blonde;8105034]I learned on TAM that women who are cheating are monogamous with their lover so if a wife is depriving her H long term, it should not be pinned on LD. It is a huge red flag for cheating because *contrary to popular belief most women LIKE sex and DO have an appetite for it.
*
is not LD IMO. It's healthy boundaries. H could have sex twice a day every day (or probably 10X a day, actually)[/QUOTE]


----------



## Anon Pink

WorkingOnMe said:


> Your reputation is so damaged at this point that it's impossible for anyone to know whether you're being sincere, snarky, sarcastic or what. Either way, there's some truth to this post.


Don't pick on Blonde! She calls it as she sees it and she has excellent insight. She calls it as she sees it. She's been there and done that and kept her positivity

I can't figure why, but this thread is so triggering your Blonde. I honestly don't see what you are seeing here.


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
Usually you read the thread - before you comment. You haven't really been doing that here.

When you do a IIRC - you are almost always recalling correctly. 

And I don't believe you have done to your H what B2 has been doing to Boston. 

QUOTE=Blonde;8105698]And yet I may be the ONLY one on this thread who has some understanding of living in BB2's shoes.

Fraid I don't have much respect for your opinions either WOM so we are even on that count. I find you misogynist.

ETA: Generally I don't do sarcasm nor snark.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> *And yet I may be the ONLY one on this thread who has some understanding of living in BB2's shoes.*
> 
> Fraid I don't have much respect for your opinions either WOM so we are even on that count. I find you misogynist.
> 
> ETA: Generally I don't do sarcasm nor snark.


Could you explain the bolded, please, Blonde?


----------



## Trickster

Blonde-


John, Trying, Boston, WOM, MEM and myself ...did i leave somebody out?...are all about the same...we all want to stay married, we love our wives, we love our children, we want that "intact family... We also want an active sex life with a loving partner. Most of all, we don't want the woman we married to go through any hardship of a D.... From what I have read. Our wives don't want a D either...We are optimistic that our marriages will improve...

Many years of sexual frustration changes us. Years of resentments on both sides...We end up saying and doing thing that is not in our nature...We all seem to work on ourselves to fix our part... Nothing we do can make the changes we desire...I guess we all expect too much....

You seem to tell the husbands of a LD woman the we should D so they can go find a man who really loves them and other rude insensitive things that I don't care to mention...There may be some truth to some of it but you, with out a doubt have a very mean spirit... You must be so hurt and holding on to so much pain that you want others to feel your hurt... I understand that.

You have succeeded with me.. You are a very hurtful angry woman. I do feel sorry for you...


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Anon Pink said:


> Don't pick on Blonde! She calls it as she sees it and she has excellent insight. She calls it as she sees it. She's been there and done that and kept her positivity
> 
> I can't figure why, but this thread is so triggering your Blonde. I honestly don't see what you are seeing here.


I'm not picking on her. I think that I, and most people who read her hate speech, cannot ever tell if she's making a back handed passive aggressive comment or if she's serious. Even though she says she doesn't do sarcasm or snark, just about every post of hers seems to be dripping with it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Interesting. I don't read her that way at all. I don't find anything that could be considered "hate speech" either. I think she's pretty much WYSIWYG.


----------



## Anon Pink

She absolutely does NOT have a mean spirit! Nor is she being hurtful.


----------



## MEM2020

WOM,
Blonde already said that she identifies with B2. But I'm guessing there's more to it than that. 





WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not picking on her. I think that I, and most people who read her hate speech, cannot ever tell if she's making a back handed passive aggressive comment or if she's serious. Even though she says she doesn't do sarcasm or snark, just about every post of hers seems to be dripping with it.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Anon Pink said:


> She absolutely does NOT have a mean spirit! Nor is she being hurtful.


Oh yes she is. She is very mean spirited and spreads her hurtful posts all over the board.


----------



## jld

I think she really wants the best for them. She has been through a lot herself, and is trying to help BB see a different view.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Blonde said:


> Absolutely nothing.
> 
> She's a piece of trash who needs to be put out by the curbside with the garbage.
> 
> Way to prove my point John117


WYSIWYG? Does Blonde truthfully think she's a piece of trash? Or is this sarcasm?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Blonde said:


> Maybe she can find someone who LOVES her and doesn't view her as a worthless gold digging reject?


BB deserves this? This is not said in a mean spirited way and meant to hurt?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Trickster said:


> Blonde-
> 
> 
> John, Trying, Boston, WOM, MEM and myself ...did i leave somebody out?...are all about the same...we all want to stay married, we love our wives, we love our children, we want that "intact family... We also want an active sex life with a loving partner. Most of all, we don't want the woman we married to go through any hardship of a D.... From what I have read. Our wives don't want a D either...We are optimistic that our marriages will improve...
> 
> Many years of sexual frustration changes us. Years of resentments on both sides...We end up saying and doing thing that is not in our nature...We all seem to work on ourselves to fix our part... Nothing we do can make the changes we desire...I guess we all expect too much....
> 
> You seem to tell the husbands of a LD woman the we should D so they can go find a man who really loves them and other rude insensitive things that I don't care to mention...There may be some truth to some of it but you, with out a doubt have a very mean spirit... You must be so hurt and holding on to so much pain that you want others to feel your hurt... I understand that.
> 
> You have succeeded with me.. You are a very hurtful angry woman. I do feel sorry for you...


I appreciate you recognizing we are all facing the very same situation with slight variations... we are all approaching it in very different ways.

I don't think there is an overall answer to this and I do believe we all are just tips of the iceberg as to how prevalent this situation is.

Even though we don't always agree its not an uncommon theme.
I think life tests us. Who said it was easy?

I wanted to document my plight here for the betterment of others.


----------



## MEM2020

She doesn't respond well to men sticking up for themselves when it has anything to do with sex. 

In general sex is a sore subject with women who've had a lot of bad sexual experiences, which she has. 

She tends to see sexually assertive men - as threatening. 

Just doesn't seem to grasp the difference between tough and harsh. 



WorkingOnMe said:


> Oh yes she is. She is very mean spirited and spreads her hurtful posts all over the board.


----------



## jld

Okay, maybe there was some sarcasm there. But I do think overall Blonde is really trying to put herself in Mrs. BB's shoes, and trying to help BB understand his wife better.

I just really think she is trying to help them save their marriage. She is especially thinking of their little girl.


----------



## Trickster

I though Blonde was just being mean to me from her post on my threads. I took it personal.... I guess it's equal opportunity for her wrath.


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM11363 said:


> She doesn't respond well to men sticking up for themselves when it has anything to do with sex.
> 
> In general sex is a sore subject with women who've had a lot of bad sexual experiences, which she has.
> 
> She tends to see sexually assertive men - as threatening.
> 
> Just doesn't seem to grasp the difference between tough and harsh.


Very observant of you MEM. 

Also true. And with good reason. She is a CSA survivor herself, married to an abusive dominant controlling serial cheater. Her faith has kept her strong, rooted in place and mostly grounded. This thread is triggering her and she isn't able to separate the events of this thread and what she has lived through.

But one thing is certain. She is a strong dynamic woman who walks the talk of her faith. She is a kind spirited person but not afraid to call a spade a spade.


----------



## Anon Pink

WorkingOnMe said:


> WYSIWYG? Does Blonde truthfully think she's a piece of trash? Or is this sarcasm?


Sarcasm


----------



## Anon Pink

WorkingOnMe said:


> BB deserves this? This is not said in a mean spirited way and meant to hurt?


No, it reveals that she is feeling unloved as her husband places unrealistic demands on her?


----------



## Faithful Wife

When I called her WYSIWYG, I meant sarcasm and all (because to me her sarcasm is obvious). I don't see anything she says as "hate" speech, is what I said. I'm not even on her side on many things she is talking about because I'm not christian and I'm liberal...but I still don't read any of her words as "hate" speech.


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> When I called her WYSIWYG, I meant sarcasm and all (because to me her sarcasm is obvious). I don't see anything she says as "hate" speech, is what I said. I'm not even on her side on many things she is talking about because I'm not christian and I'm liberal...but I still don't read any of her words as "hate" speech.


Ditto! Not a Christian and am a liberal and yet she has never pissed me off! LOL that says a lot about her like ability! :rofl:


----------



## Eagle3

Her opinions on BB not doing things right to his partner is all fair game and what not. But she implied on multiple posts he is not a good father and they would be better off without him when that was not the issue of the discussion is not really helpful to anyone. I think its things like that can get people to not look at any helpful advice Blonde is giving in a good light.


----------



## Trickster

Anon Pink said:


> No, it reveals that she is feeling unloved as her husband places unrealistic demands on her?


So that being the case, she assumes that every single man does the same thing whether it's true or not...Blonde doesn't "walk the talk" And she is not kind spirited... Blonde is taking out her anger and resentments on the men who appear to show any resemblance to her husband... Is that what her faith teaches her?


Blonde it telling husbands to D their wives so that the innocent loving hardworking wife can find real love....if her hubby it so demanding, why is she still married? She can go find a man who is less demanding.

She should tell her husband the things she tells us men....


----------



## john117

Trickster said:


> Blonde-
> 
> 
> John, Trying, Boston, WOM, MEM and myself ...did i leave somebody out?...are all about the same...we all want to stay married, we love our wives,



Well, allow me to extricate myself from the list above... My 180 seems to be working even better than expected 

I'm past - well past - the point of caring at this time. In fact, I find it worthwhile to explore the limits of her tolerance. There is valuable insight about how much she will tolerate in order to stay her course.



> We are optimistic that our marriages will improve...


I used to believe in the Easter Bunny too.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Do you have a current thread john, where you can update us?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

john117 said:


> Well, allow me to extricate myself from the list above... My 180 seems to be working even better than expected
> 
> I'm past - well past - the point of caring at this time. In fact, I find it worthwhile to explore the limits of her tolerance. There is valuable insight about how much she will tolerate in order to stay her course.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to believe in the Easter Bunny too.


I think John you say you are past caring but the very fact you are here on TAM at some level means you care no matter how much you attempt to bury it, otherwise you would have moved on never to post or visit TAM again .... I take breaks from TAM because I like you am past most of the mess and do my own thing. TAM takes a certain amount of energy.

I see the value in watching the experiment aspect too. I guess I just feel positive I will achieve my goal, not sure I would stay if I felt there was no hope or change as it seems in your case you are certain of the outcome.

I believe we make our own outcome.


----------



## john117

Faithful Wife said:


> Do you have a current thread john, where you can update us?



I spent late December to early February being the nicest I could be. Marginal improvement on all fronts, definitely not worth the effort. Since then back to fireworks. I posted details in the original thread.


----------



## john117

Trying2figureitout said:


> I think John you say you are past caring but the very fact you are here on TAM at some level means you care no matter how much you attempt to bury it, otherwise you would have moved on never to post or visit TAM again .....



Curiosity, the bane of all scientists 

I do feel empty - like the day I walked out of the auditorium after having successfully defended my dissertation. The committee signed off, I collected the paperwork, shook hands, and walked out knowing this would be the last day of my 10-year college career. Getting the degree was a personal goal only, I went back to the same company, same position, promotion and better money, but there was no joy in it. My research was done, my desk in the lab cleared out. No more fun with undergraduate RA's. 

That's about how I feel right now. One of those "it was fun while it lasted" things.


----------



## Catherine602

Trickster said:


> So that being the case, she assumes that every single man does the same thing whether it's true or not...Blonde doesn't "walk the talk" And she is not kind spirited... Blonde is taking out her anger and resentments on the men who appear to show any resemblance to her husband... Is that what her faith teaches her?
> 
> 
> Blonde it telling husbands to D their wives so that the innocent loving hardworking wife can find real love....if her hubby it so demanding, why is she still married? She can go find a man who is less demanding.
> 
> She should tell her husband the things she tells us men....


She can't. That's what abuse does to a person. Hard to believe right? But that is how cruel violence to body and mind does to a person, it breaks them. Try to put yourself in her place. 

Pretend you are a woman, pretend you are not physically strong enough to resist or too beaten down to move. Have you never felt so powerless that you can't move? I have. You can ask, why don't you fight or leave. 

You don't know what it feels like to be overpowered by people who should protect you. You don't know what it is like to be invaded or the vulnerability to invasion against your will. 

Where can you go to escape except to retreat deep inside. So deep that you lose contact with your body.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I do feel bad for her, but I'm sorry that just doesn't give her the moral high ground to be hurtful to every man she sees.


----------



## john117

WorkingOnMe said:


> I do feel bad for her, but I'm sorry that just doesn't give her the moral high ground to be hurtful to every man she sees.



She's honest about her rationale tho...


----------



## Blonde

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Blonde View Post
> Absolutely nothing.
> 
> She's a piece of trash who needs to be put out by the curbside with the garbage.
> 
> Way to prove my point John117
> WYSIWYG? Does Blonde truthfully think she's a piece of trash? Or is this sarcasm?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WorkingOnMe said:
> 
> 
> 
> WYSIWYG? Does Blonde truthfully think she's a piece of trash? Or is this sarcasm?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I thought of that after. ^^THAT was sarcasm 

Sometimes I have used /sarcasm to indicate sarcasm but mostly I am am quite a serious person. I dislike sarcasm or putdowns which hurts someone's feelings. 

The sarcasm above was to make a point. BB's wife has stepped up Is she praised for it, her effort appreciated? valued? NO! BB is being encouraged by TAM people to* DUMP her* :wtf 
She did what he wanted. TIME TO DUMP HER!!! :slap:

Have you people ever heard of positive reinforcement and patience? :scratchhead:


----------



## john117

There is a high probability of an ulterior motive for "stepping up" that single aspect that showed the improvement....


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
You are not reading the thread. 

B2 has some serious issues. She's not working on them. I've pushed Boston hard to be direct with her. To date, he hasn't been. That said, it's kind of obvious what's happening here. 

She hasn't discussed the WHY of anything with Boston. Tolerating weekly sex is just a means to an end: baby + bigger house

As for Boston, he still doesn't grasp that the ugly truth - when delivered from the heart, with the sincere desire to find a path forward: has a stark beauty unlike any other

I keep telling him the same thing different ways. Ultimately though - he's either going to man up or the marriage will end. 

He took a half step in the right direction a few days ago. But he avoided some stuff that is core to this marriage. 



Blonde said:


> I thought of that after. ^^THAT was sarcasm
> 
> Sometimes I have used /sarcasm to indicate sarcasm but mostly I am am quite a serious person. I dislike sarcasm or putdowns which hurts someone's feelings.
> 
> The sarcasm above was to make a point. BB's wife has stepped up Is she praised for it, her effort appreciated? valued? NO! BB is being encouraged by TAM people to* DUMP her* :wtf
> She did what he wanted. TIME TO DUMP HER!!! :slap:
> 
> Have you people ever heard of positive reinforcement and patience? :scratchhead:


----------



## Trying2figureitout

of no hope


Blonde said:


> I thought of that after. ^^THAT was sarcasm
> 
> Sometimes I have used /sarcasm to indicate sarcasm but mostly I am am quite a serious person. I dislike sarcasm or putdowns which hurts someone's feelings.
> 
> The sarcasm above was to make a point. BB's wife has stepped up Is she praised for it, her effort appreciated? valued? NO! BB is being encouraged by TAM people to* DUMP her* :wtf
> She did what he wanted. TIME TO DUMP HER!!! :slap:
> 
> Have you people ever heard of positive reinforcement and patience? :scratchhead:


I said Divorce over separation... my *primary solution* as you all know is to stick it out and try to exhaust all avenues. I was perhaps being sarcastic after reading this thread of monthly sex not being enough and improvement not being enough.

I agree BB seems to be pulling the separation card way to soon and does not recognize his wife's efforts nor appreciates them enough.

I never condone divorce unless there is no hope for a mutually satisfying solution
I think BB's marriage has hope if they both look in the mirror.

If you get to that point of NO HOPE NO CHANGE separation is a cop out.

Hard to work on the marriage separated or divorced


Divorce is basically for those not willing to put in the work in the absence of physical abuse.


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine,
The difference between your outcome and Blondes can be fully described in a single word: adulthood

Your adulthood has been spent with a man who is in love with you. Who has been loyal to you. Who has helped you heal from childhoods wounds. 

Blondes adulthood - well - she married a guy who has betrayed her and amplified her view of 'men as pigs'. 

The difference between your posts and hers is vast. 




Catherine602 said:


> She can't. That's what abuse does to a person. Hard to believe right? But that is how cruel violence to body and mind does to a person, it breaks them. Try to put yourself in her place.
> 
> Pretend you are a woman, pretend you are not physically strong enough to resist or too beaten down to move. Have you never felt so powerless that you can't move? I have. You can ask, why don't you fight or leave.
> 
> You don't know what it feels like to be overpowered by people who should protect you. You don't know what it is like to be invaded or the vulnerability to invasion against your will.
> 
> Where can you go to escape except to retreat deep inside. So deep that you lose contact with your body.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> As for Boston, he still doesn't grasp that *the ugly truth - when delivered from the heart, with the sincere desire to find a path forward: has a stark beauty unlike any other*


This is true. 

Transparency is powerful. And combined with active listening, it can change hearts -- and marriages.


----------



## Catherine602

MEM11363 said:


> Blonde,
> You are not reading the thread.
> 
> B2 has some serious issues. She's not working on them. I've pushed Boston hard to be direct with her. To date, he hasn't been. That said, it's kind of obvious what's happening here.
> 
> She hasn't discussed the WHY of anything with Boston. Tolerating weekly sex is just a means to an end: baby + bigger house
> 
> As for Boston, he still doesn't grasp that the ugly truth - when delivered from the heart, with the sincere desire to find a path forward: has a stark beauty unlike any other
> 
> I keep telling him the same thing different ways. Ultimately though - he's either going to man up or the marriage will end.
> 
> He took a half step in the right direction a few days ago. But he avoided some stuff that is core to this marriage.


That's true MEM. How did I luck out. I wonder all of the time. Sure didn't plan to marry someone so good to me. Had no idea what to look for. Didn't deserve it more than anyone else. 

It was pure dumb luck and I am grateful.


----------



## Anon Pink

Blonde said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> H has been lurking and expressed jealousy @ you Trickster.
> 
> Too funny! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Perhaps he will find your post comforting


Really! Is he still here? I'd like a word or two with him. Does he have the balls to stick around and chat?


----------



## MEM2020

Jesus H Christ T2, I wish for once you would stop all this got damn ***** footing around and man the fvck up. 

Tell your wife that you know she's been fvcking another guy for an EN tire Olympiad - and enough's enough. She can either step up or step the fvck off. 

I cannot take one more de-lusional, door mattish post from you. 

Why don't you just tell her that your sorry that sex sucked so bad for the first 17 years - that she barely tolerated it. Either you don't last very long during inter course or you never learned how to give world class oral sex. Just stop pretending. 

If nothing else - set a got damned example for your kids and for Boston. You have zero chance of success acting like a pu$$y.




Trying2figureitout said:


> I appreciate you recognizing we are all facing the very same situation with slight variations... we are all approaching it in very different ways.
> 
> I don't think there is an overall answer to this and I do believe we all are just tips of the iceberg as to how prevalent this situation is.
> 
> Even though we don't always agree its not an uncommon theme.
> I think life tests us. Who said it was easy?
> 
> I wanted to document my plight here for the betterment of others.


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM11363 said:


> Jesus H Christ T2, I wish for once you would stop all this got damn ***** footing around and man the fvck up.
> 
> Tell your wife that you know she's been fvcking another guy for an EN tire Olympiad - and enough's enough. She can either step up or step the fvck off.
> 
> I cannot take one more de-lusional, door mattish post from you.
> 
> Why don't you just tell her that your sorry that sex sucked so bad for the first 17 years - that she barely tolerated it. Either you don't last very long during inter course or you never learned how to give world class oral sex. Just stop pretending.
> 
> If nothing else - set a got damned example for your kids and for Boston. You have zero chance of success acting like a pu$$y.


Okay, I don't know about anyone else but that got me hot!


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine, 
Maybe - just maybe - I could buy the idea that picking him was luck. It's a stretch but - I'll do it if you ask me to. 

But - what you have done IN your marriage, that ain't luck. That is strength, courage, determination and commitment. Your H gets hit on a lot. But he ONLY wants you. There is a reason for that. You want to see the reason, go look in the mirror. 

I know how this works. I don't get hit on as much as him, but when I do, I react the same way. There's only one person I want. 




Catherine602 said:


> That's true MEM. How did I luck out. I wonder all of the time. Sure didn't plan to marry someone so good to me. Had no idea what to look for. Didn't deserve it more than anyone else.
> 
> It was pure dumb luck and I am grateful.


----------



## Trickster

john117 said:


> Well, allow me to extricate myself from the list above... My 180 seems to be working even better than expected
> 
> I'm past - well past - the point of caring at this time. In fact, I find it worthwhile to explore the limits of her tolerance. There is valuable insight about how much she will tolerate in order to stay her course.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to believe in the Easter Bunny too.




I hear ya there...I gave up on trying as well... Tolerance? My wife even agreed to this open marriage krap...will she actually tolerate me to do that? Who knows...She has no problem with me doing anything...Just as long as we continue being married...

What I I don't get is that even though she told me she isn't in love with me and the sex has slowed, I lost my interest in sex.. Now, she is more affectionate than ever before...I do respond to that?


----------



## Trickster

Catherine602 said:


> She can't. That's what abuse does to a person. Hard to believe right? But that is how cruel violence to body and mind does to a person, it breaks them. Try to put yourself in her place.
> 
> Pretend you are a woman, pretend you are not physically strong enough to resist or too beaten down to move. Have you never felt so powerless that you can't move? I have. You can ask, why don't you fight or leave.
> 
> You don't know what it feels like to be overpowered by people who should protect you. You don't know what it is like to be invaded or the vulnerability to invasion against your will.
> 
> Where can you go to escape except to retreat deep inside. So deep that you lose contact with your body.



I know all about abuse Catherine... I remember my head being bashed against the wall on many occasions, I will never ever forget my mom always telling me I would never amount to anything. No matter what I did ever changer her attitude.. I understand Blonde way more than she realizes...

We are a prisoner in our own mind....Blonde can choose to leave, just like any of us.... She still hopes for that happily ever after that will never come... We are all a victim to that false hope.

Even though John wanted off the list, he is still hopefull that his narriafpge will improve....


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> Jesus H Christ T2, I wish for once you would stop all this got damn ***** footing around and man the fvck up.
> 
> Tell your wife that you know she's been fvcking another guy for an EN tire Olympiad - and enough's enough. She can either step up or step the fvck off.
> 
> I cannot take one more de-lusional, door mattish post from you.
> 
> Why don't you just tell her that your sorry that sex sucked so bad for the first 17 years - that she barely tolerated it. Either you don't last very long during inter course or you never learned how to give world class oral sex. Just stop pretending.
> 
> If nothing else - set a got damned example for your kids and for Boston. You have zero chance of success acting like a pu$$y.


I disagree

Door mattish? I think what I do is point out that TWO people are involved of different sexes.

If the man up stuff worked we wouldn't have this forum... because the first piece of advice is MMSL from everyone. It only works sometimes in some rare easier cases.

If you break it down...sex is more work for a female and long term marriages get boring to her and sleep looks like a better option, I'm sure most men in sexless marriages had a rather mundane sex life in the years leading up to it. The reason is men are ok with mundane.... as long as they are having sex.

Also leading up to sexless...sex was never directly discussed as vital so the wife just basically didn't find it worth her effort over time...then some trigger event and shes done...off sex or out of love

Women need value (intrigue) to go through the hassle...and are quick to use sex as a weapon further exacerbating the situation

Intrigue is part of why MMSL can work... the female needs to want to KNOW the man better. But that is only ONE component.

Two different sexes and two different humans.... yet we treat this as a one sided issue.

It took a lot for your spouse to risk sexless behavior as *everyone KNOWS sex is a basic of marriage*. That is not a secret. She knew eventually there would be consequences, eventually there were.

I blame both spouses for prior lack of communication and discussion of issues. I blame females for pulling the no sex card all the time (I am certain at some point every female uses sex as a weapon). That is equivalent of the silent treatment from a male.(Which men go to to really hurt the female in a legal way) why do both choose these weapons? Because they hurt the other where it hurts...and they can maintain these as long as they want.

You don't see us being mutes for months at a time I think I saw ONE story of a husband silent for a few weeks. Even hours of silence drives the female nuts... yet its ok to make the male nuts without sex... a big imbalance here. Males do not typically want to see their wives tortured we are wired to protect the female... not sure its the same in reverse I think many women/wives are a-ok with torturing their husbands. Again a difference in the sexes.

Females that get married and pull the sex weapon are messed up...a majority use sex as a weapon at some point. Because to them its not a need as much as to a man...and being a hassle/chore its easy to eliminate plus it hurts the man... in a subverted way. Then they wonder why their marriages suffer.

I blame both.... but females get more blame for not communicating prior to pulling the sex weapon card and was a pretty weak choice in a marriage where sex is a basic item.

All boils down to the DIFFERENCE in the sexes.

Hence the "banging the head against the wall" feeling and the divorce stats

But there is some hope...some females GET IT ....eventually 3,4,5, 6 , 10, 15 , 20 years down the line talk about wasted time on both spouse part.


----------



## john117

Trickster said:


> Even though John wanted off the list, he is still hopefull that his narriafpge will improve....



He is simply assessing exactly what magnitude of lunacy he's dealing with. It's actually quite entertaining as her story keeps changing.

During the 'caring' part of the program he probably was hopeful but that's vodka under the bridge as they say back home...


----------



## LongWalk

T2, if you tell your wife that you are driving strangers on the world wide web crazy by making them share your sexless existence, I gather that she would chortle and tell you to say hi.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

LongWalk said:


> T2, if you tell your wife that you are driving strangers on the world wide web crazy by making them share your sexless existence, I gather that she would chortle and tell you to say hi.


If you are driven crazy by the way the world works I'm sorry.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Trying2figureitout said:


> It took a lot for your spouse to risk sexless behavior as *everyone KNOWS sex is a basic of marriage*. That is not a secret. She knew eventually there would be consequences, eventually there were.


The only apparant consequences are to us having to listen to your drivel. It is not clear what we did to deserve that. She has had none - although, as a point of fact, she is not sexless, so perhaps this does not apply.



> You don't see us being mutes for months at a time I think I saw ONE story of a husband silent for a few weeks. Even hours of silence drives the female nuts... yet its ok to make the male nuts without sex... a big imbalance here. Males do not typically want to see their wives tortured we are wired to protect the female... not sure its the same in reverse I think many women/wives are a-ok with torturing their husbands. Again a difference in the sexes.


It it means you also can't type, then I would urge you to try. See how it works.



> I blame both.... but females get more blame for not communicating prior to pulling the sex weapon card and was a pretty weak choice in a marriage where sex is a basic item.


Except it is not a basic item. You lived without it for four years. You even likened it to an addiction. So quit your double talk. 

I am actually going to disagree with MEM on this one. Don't man up. You don't want to. You beleive that this is the best you can do. So figure out why that is. Once you do that, then come back and see where you want to go.


----------



## Trickster

LongWalk said:


> T2, if you tell your wife that you are driving strangers on the world wide web crazy by making them share your sexless existence, I gather that she would chortle and tell you to say hi.


Had to laugh myself... My wife chuckles most time she sees me on TAM... She has no desire at all to know what I talk about...Sometimes, I will read a post or two from similar stories, which just seems to validate her behavior that most men are too needy sexually...Even when I read all those marriage books, she would just laugh seeing me spend so much time trying to fix myself.

Last night when I talked about improving myself... New hobby's, interest, working out, building muscles.....and it didn't seem to improve desire.... 

Then she made a very normal comment... "You should feel better about yourself." Then she reminded me again that the sexual desire/drive isn't there and never was....The ball is in my court. She is happy the way things are no matter what I do...

It's funny that Blonde's H is a little jealous....I tend to read her post the most to the W. She doesn't even respond to her comments....


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tall Average Guy said:


> The only apparant consequences are to us having to listen to your drivel. It is not clear what we did to deserve that. She has had none - although, as a point of fact, she is not sexless, so perhaps this does not apply.
> 
> 
> 
> It it means you also can't type, then I would urge you to try. See how it works.
> 
> 
> 
> Except it is not a basic item. You lived without it for four years. You even likened it to an addiction. So quit your double talk.
> 
> I am actually going to disagree with MEM on this one. Don't man up. You don't want to. You beleive that this is the best you can do. So figure out why that is. Once you do that, then come back and see where you want to go.



Its basic KNOWLEDGE...just like smoking is BAD VERY BAD and yet people still smoke.

Everyone accepts smoking is BAD
Everyone realizes SEX is an integral part of marriage.
Yet people smoke and many withhold sex in marriage.

So addiction fits and both seeking and withholding are addictions

And FYI I have had sex in the past four years.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Trickster said:


> Had to laugh myself... My wife chuckles most time she sees me on TAM... She has no desire at all to know what I talk about...Sometimes, I will read a post or two from similar stories, which just seems to validate her behavior that most men are too needy sexually...Even when I read all those marriage books, she would just laugh seeing me spend so much time trying to fix myself.
> 
> Last night when I talked about improving myself... New hobby's, interest, working out, building muscles.....and it didn't seem to improve desire....
> 
> Then she made a very normal comment... "You should feel better about yourself." Then she reminded me again that the sexual desire/drive isn't there and never was....The ball is in my court. She is happy the way things are no matter what I do...
> 
> It's funny that Blonde's H is a little jealous....I tend to read her post the most to the W. She doesn't even respond to her comments....


I would call your wife on the NEVER comment. What do you have to lose?
At least have some fun with the less than ideal situation.

Obviously at some point she found sexual desire for you...I doubt you married a virgin.

You wife is power tripping you.... at least challenge her for fun.


----------



## Trickster

Trying2figureitout said:


> I would call your wife on the NEVER comment. What do you have to lose?
> At least have some fun with the less than ideal situation.
> 
> Obviously at some point she found sexual desire for you...I doubt you married a virgin.
> 
> You wife is power tripping you.... at least challenge her for fun.


She was a virgin... A 25 year old virgin.


----------



## Holland

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree
> 
> Door mattish? I think what I do is point out that TWO people are involved of different sexes.
> 
> If the man up stuff worked we wouldn't have this forum... because the first piece of advice is MMSL from everyone. It only works sometimes in some rare easier cases.
> 
> *If you break it down...sex is more work for a female and long term marriages get boring to her and sleep looks like a better option, I'm sure most men in sexless marriages had a rather mundane sex life in the years leading up to it. The reason is men are ok with mundane.... as long as they are having sex.*
> 
> Also leading up to sexless...sex was never directly discussed as vital so the wife just basically didn't find it worth her effort over time...then some trigger event and shes done...off sex or out of love
> 
> Women need value (intrigue) to go through the hassle...and are quick to use sex as a weapon further exacerbating the situation
> 
> Intrigue is part of why MMSL can work... the female needs to want to KNOW the man better. But that is only ONE component.
> 
> Two different sexes and two different humans.... yet we treat this as a one sided issue.
> 
> It took a lot for your spouse to risk sexless behavior as everyone KNOWS sex is a basic of marriage. That is not a secret. She knew eventually there would be consequences, eventually there were.
> 
> I blame both spouses for prior lack of communication and discussion of issues. * I blame females for pulling the no sex card all the time (I am certain at some point every female uses sex as a weapon). That is equivalent of the silent treatment from a male.(Which men go to to really hurt the female in a legal way) why do both choose these weapons? Because they hurt the other where it hurts...and they can maintain these as long as they want.*
> 
> You don't see us being mutes for months at a time I think I saw ONE story of a husband silent for a few weeks. Even hours of silence drives the female nuts... yet its ok to make the male nuts without sex... a big imbalance here. Males do not typically want to see their wives tortured we are wired to protect the female... not sure its the same in reverse I think many women/wives are a-ok with torturing their husbands. Again a difference in the sexes.
> 
> *Females that get married and pull the sex weapon are messed up...a majority use sex as a weapon at some point. Because to them its not a need as much as to a man...and being a hassle/chore its easy to eliminate plus it hurts the man..*. in a subverted way. Then they wonder why their marriages suffer.
> 
> I blame both.... but females get more blame for not communicating prior to pulling the sex weapon card and was a pretty weak choice in a marriage where sex is a basic item.
> 
> *All boils down to the DIFFERENCE in the sexes.*
> 
> Hence the "banging the head against the wall" feeling and the divorce stats
> 
> But there is some hope...some females GET IT ....eventually 3,4,5, 6 , 10, 15 , 20 years down the line talk about wasted time on both spouse part.


T2 you clearly have little to no understanding of your fellow human beings, male or female. Might be wise to stop giving advice to others about their sexless marriages.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Holland said:


> T2 you clearly have little to no understanding of your fellow human beings, male or female. Might be wise to stop giving advice to others about their sexless marriages.


Specifically challenge then what i said that is misguided oh wise Holland.

Are the sexes different Y or N
Who is more likely to pull the no sex card M or F 
Who is sex more work for M or F
Is lack of communication a factor Y or N

Clearly I have no understanding.

Sooner we all look at this from a male and then a female perspective SEPARATELY the better off we will be.
When it comes to sex there is a huge difference especially in long term relationships.

Lets quit candy coating it and trying to be so politically correct.

Its female sexual desire versus male sexual desire and YES it is totally different and I believe females are not as likely to want sex over the long term and this is based on actual surveys when it comes to sex. They are wired that way.

So if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and smells like a duck...its a duck.

Again hence this forum.

I am not passing judgement on females its OK to say its a different sexual desire level especially over time as in years 16,17,18,19 . Neither is right or wrong it JUST IS and if TAM would just accept that and quit trying to say everyone is the same maybe we can make some inroads into resolving this discrepancy and very common problem.


----------



## Holland

Trying2figureitout said:


> Specifically challenge then what i said that is misguided* oh wise Holland.*
> 
> Are the sexes different Y or N
> Who is more likely to pull the no sex card M or F
> Who is sex more work for M or F
> Is lack of communication a factor Y or N
> 
> Clearly I have no understanding.
> 
> Sooner we all look at this from a male and then a female perspective better off we will be.
> When it comes to sex there is a huge difference especially in long term relationships.
> 
> Lets quit candy coating it and trying to be so politically correct.
> 
> Its female sexual desire versus male sexual desire and YES it is totally different


I would be happy to have a discussion and talk about where IME your statements are incorrect. Being a female that has experienced a sexless marriage I have some input.

However I will not have this discussion with you due to PA way your referenced me. I did not put you down however you saw the need to be PA to me. I am going to have a guess that this is an issue in your sexless marriage. PA is very off putting.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Trickster said:


> She was a virgin... A 25 year old virgin.


Hmmm... that explains it


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Holland said:


> I would be happy to have a discussion and talk about where IME your statements are incorrect. Being a female that has experienced a sexless marriage I have some input.
> 
> However I will not have this discussion with you due to PA way your referenced me. I did not put you down however you saw the need to be PA to me. I am going to have a guess that this is an issue in your sexless marriage. PA is very off putting.


Um are we thin skinned ?

"*Clearly* have *l**ittle to no understanding* of your fellow human beings, male or female."

Is a put down.

PA=personal attack

Don't think so..I call it matching your intensity
Again a difference in the way sexes approach things


----------



## Holland

PA = Passive Aggressive


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Holland said:


> PA = Passive Aggressive


Again NO I'm always aggressive when discussing this plague of sexless behaviors in marriages.


----------



## MEM2020

Holland,
I believe what you'll find is that the term IME means something very different to you, than it does to T2.

Based on his own posts, he and his wife average 15/20 per year for the first 15 years or so. Ballpark - 270 times. 
Followed by a drought (7 times in 2+ years) and a few times in the next two years. He's had fewer than 300 sexual encounters and is late 40's. 

Far worse, he never really figured out that the reason his wife rarely had sex with him during their *good* years, is that she didn't like it. As she directly told him in the midst of their drought, she does NOT have a libido problem. 

She is NOT low drive, she's low desire for T2. 

I believe if she were here she would say that she wouldn't tolerate being sexless. Luckily for her, she appears to have a very healthy sex life with her - ummm - friend. The guy she texts 'I love you' to. 

T2 is attempting to paint woman kind as libido impaired. 





Holland said:


> I would be happy to have a discussion and talk about where IME your statements are incorrect. Being a female that has experienced a sexless marriage I have some input.
> 
> However I will not have this discussion with you due to PA way your referenced me. I did not put you down however you saw the need to be PA to me. I am going to have a guess that this is an issue in your sexless marriage. PA is very off putting.


----------



## john117

The analysis assumes a/the, ummm, friend was present thru the marriage. 

If she managed to PA throughout, it's one thing. Otherwise I'm thinking Mrs. T3 is as LD as a door knob...


----------



## Holland

Ok that makes the picture clearer MEM. 

Yes I understand IME means different to all of us, exactly why I use the term and not IMHO.

If we all though that our expereince was the truth for all of mankind then going by my past I could say that ALL men are LD and emotionally crippled. But I know that is not the truth and would never say or support such a sentiment.

At some point we all have to take responsibility for where our lives are at. It is never all the other persons fault and it in never all of one genders issue.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

MEM11363 said:


> Holland,
> I believe what you'll find is that the term IME means something very different to you, than it does to T2.
> 
> Based on his own posts, he and his wife average 15/20 per year for the first 15 years or so. Ballpark - 270 times.
> Followed by a drought (7 times in 2+ years) and a few times in the next two years. He's had fewer than 300 sexual encounters and is late 40's.
> 
> Far worse, he never really figured out that the reason his wife rarely had sex with him during their *good* years, is that she didn't like it. As she directly told him in the midst of their drought, she does NOT have a libido problem.
> 
> She is NOT low drive, she's low desire for T2.
> 
> I believe if she were here she would say that she wouldn't tolerate being sexless. Luckily for her, she appears to have a very healthy sex life with her - ummm - friend. The guy she texts 'I love you' to.
> 
> T2 is attempting to paint woman kind as libido impaired.


I do not believe my wife's libido is impaired, on the other hand I don't think it is a raging one either. I think she has a relatively normal (female) libido and with our schedules the times we go to bed together are limited. My own initiations are rare, partially due to being shot down so much and partially to give her space, I can count on one hand how many times I TRIED in the past year.

I also do not believe my wife has had sex without me. I don't think she masturbates either.
And I believe it was a one way EA on her part.

If this is abnormal that's news to me as I see many of the same stories here about sexless marriage's and EA's


I dated my wife (lived with her) for over three years with much more sex then.

What I do think it is is she had resentment and drama was a turn off.(Past 4+ years)

AS for our lower sex marriage throughout..that worked for us at the time...and we had nightly contact and sex like things in between.

What I think my wifes issue like many women...

She held on to resentment
Punished with the no sex card
Enjoys emotions over sex
Makes herself too busy and too tired sleep is preferred
Had an EA

It is a gender thing.

I'm fairly certain she would be similar with any other man were she actually having sex with them and living with them


----------



## msunnyd

BostonBruins32 said:


> Calling all LD women. What are your reasons for rejecting your HD spouse? I initiate about 10 times per month, and get rejected 9 of those times. A few times having sex only once every other month. I've expressed how important sex is to me with my wife and she said she just doesnt feel like it often and that shes sorry. I have never been able to get more out of her than that. I've stopped initiating on the premise of a quote i read "why woudl you want to have sex with someone who doesnt want to have sex with you". been almost 40 days now since sexual activity.
> 
> So what are some common reasons you LD women "dont feel like" having sex with your spouse? Personally speaking, I can tell you its taking a toll on my view of our relationship.


Why don't you ask her? And frame it in a non-threatening way, and be honest yourself so she feels safe to tell the truth. It might suck but naked verbal honesty is the closest thing to naked physical intimacy there is; maybe the verbal intimacy will her her in the mood Maybe frame it like this:..."I feel___rejected? unloved?___when you don't want to have sex with me. Can you tell me honestly why you don't want to? I won't be angry, I just want to know so I can help."


----------



## Lyris

Trying2figureitout said:


> I do not believe my wife's libido is impaired, on the other hand I don't think it is a raging one either. I think she has a relatively normal (female) libido and with our schedules the times we go to bed together are limited. My own initiations are rare, partially due to being shot down so much and partially to give her space, I can count on one hand how many times I TRIED in the past year.
> 
> I also do not believe my wife has had sex without me. I don't think she masturbates either.
> And I believe it was a one way EA on her part.
> 
> If this is abnormal that's news to me as I see many of the same stories here about sexless marriage's and EA's
> 
> .


I can't think of any other story like yours.

But blame women's biology, sure. Means you're off the hook.


----------



## MEM2020

T2,
Your W flat out told you she doesn't have a libido problem. 

You two have had maybe 10 encounters in 4.5 years. And you think a woman who self describes as having a normal libido is ok with one experience every 5 months or so? 

Doesn't even masturbate. 

And we are talking a very fit woman. Not just healthy, but very fit. 

Your need to preserve your self image is far greater than your need to have sex. 




Trying2figureitout said:


> I do not believe my wife's libido is impaired, on the other hand I don't think it is a raging one either. I think she has a relatively normal (female) libido and with our schedules the times we go to bed together are limited. My own initiations are rare, partially due to being shot down so much and partially to give her space, I can count on one hand how many times I TRIED in the past year.
> 
> I also do not believe my wife has had sex without me. I don't think she masturbates either.
> And I believe it was a one way EA on her part.
> 
> If this is abnormal that's news to me as I see many of the same stories here about sexless marriage's and EA's
> 
> 
> I dated my wife (lived with her) for over three years with much more sex then.
> 
> What I do think it is is she had resentment and drama was a turn off.(Past 4+ years)
> 
> AS for our lower sex marriage throughout..that worked for us at the time...and we had nightly contact and sex like things in between.
> 
> What I think my wifes issue like many women...
> 
> She held on to resentment
> Punished with the no sex card
> Enjoys emotions over sex
> Makes herself too busy and too tired sleep is preferred
> Had an EA
> 
> It is a gender thing.
> 
> I'm fairly certain she would be similar with any other man were she actually having sex with them and living with them


----------



## PieceOfSky

Trying2figureitout said:


> I do not believe my wife's libido is impaired, on the other hand I don't think it is a raging one either. I think she has a relatively normal (female) libido and with our schedules the times we go to bed together are limited. My own initiations are rare, partially due to being shot down so much and partially to give her space, I can count on one hand how many times I TRIED in the past year.
> 
> I also do not believe my wife has had sex without me. I don't think she masturbates either.
> And I believe it was a one way EA on her part.
> 
> If this is abnormal that's news to me as I see many of the same stories here about sexless marriage's and EA's
> 
> 
> I dated my wife (lived with her) for over three years with much more sex then.
> 
> What I do think it is is she had resentment and drama was a turn off.(Past 4+ years)
> 
> AS for our lower sex marriage throughout..that worked for us at the time...and we had nightly contact and sex like things in between.
> 
> What I think my wifes issue like many women...
> 
> She held on to resentment
> Punished with the no sex card
> Enjoys emotions over sex
> Makes herself too busy and too tired sleep is preferred
> Had an EA
> 
> It is a gender thing.
> 
> I'm fairly certain she would be similar with any other man were she actually having sex with them and living with them







There are many similarities between my wife and I's situation and yours and your wife's, from what you described above.



I do not see it as a gender issue. There are too many examples here on TAM of women who have had to deal with similar behavior from male partners for a gender-based argument to carry any weight with me. Gratefully, there are also many women here who treat their husbands' needs with sensitivity and respect. 




I do wonder if you have ever pondered what you might be getting out of viewing it as a gender issue. Is it possible it is easier somehow to attribute her behavior and feelings to her gender, rather than to her exclusively?


----------



## PieceOfSky

Trying2figureitout said:


> Hmmm... that explains it







Again, seems to me you are seeking to apply a generalization (statistically valid or not) to a particular situation as if that is a valid thing to do.



Generalizations explain nothing about a particular instance. You have it backwards...Collections of instances can be the basis of generalizations.



I was a virgin when I met my wife and we began dating. She had had two multi-year relationships, apparently full of sex. I was 26 when we finally became physically intimate, after waiting about three months. Err, I waited three months; she waited only about a month and a half -- you know, just to see if she was really done with the ex-lover two relationships prior.



I was the one who suffered through more than a decade of chronic rejection, not her. I was the virgin, not her.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

PieceOfSky said:


> There are many similarities between my wife and I's situation and yours and your wife's, from what you described above.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not see it as a gender issue. There are too many examples here on TAM of women who have had to deal with similar behavior from male partners for a gender-based argument to carry any weight with me. Gratefully, there are also many women here who treat their husbands' needs with sensitivity and respect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do wonder if you have ever pondered what you might be getting out of viewing it as a gender issue. Is it possible it is easier somehow to attribute her behavior and feelings to her gender, rather than to her exclusively?


I firmly believe it is a gender issue at the heart of the sexless matter.

There are just different reasons to have sex from male to female and different mechanisms at work... again no one is right or wrong..it just is.

To say there isn't a difference is being blind. There is and it is much more likely that the female end up being the "LD" partner throughout the marriage than the male...and the male "accepts" that lower standard. Face it most males could have sex 8 times a day and would if allowed to by society with a willing gorgeous female. That is what marriage should attempt to provide but doesn't..no where close except in a very rare subset of marriages...why? Female difference in the way they approach sex


Even in good (sexually speaking) marriages you ask the reason why they have sex three times aweek their answer "I know its* important to him* and makes me feel closer" notice the wording she will use. You ask the guy... "My wife is hot and *I like sex*"

It just is the way it is.

As for those females who end up with sexless husbands..sure that happens and is tragic... but there are many more the other way around.

"I have a headache" is *ALWAYS attributed* to the female gender..that did not come out of NOWHERE it is so very common people joke about it.

In long term marriages this all gets exposed in many countless ones...the ones here at TAM are a very small % of the actual marriages in which the woman does not want sex as much as the man.

The females here are NOT typical of females as a whole. Normal females do not want to discuss sex or marriage issues in an online forum.

The men here are typical, men want to find answers and will turn over every stone to find it.

So I stand 100% behind my stance that gender plays a key role in sexless marriage... and even when guys go sexless its likely because they had issues prior with that female in regards to sex.

Look at my own marriage I have initiated under five times in a year and a half that is on me..its in response to female low sex issues. I had sex once that's 20% success (already a high rejection rate) but look at the data set.

My story does repeat I am just the most vocal about it here.

If we start with the premise males and females ARE different then perhaps we can cut through the noise that says they aren't..otherwise we are trying to resolve an issue assuming all is equal it isn't

As for statistics of course you will likely say things are good again just the way humans work when presented with a survey they embellish.

I don't blame biology I blame those that try to pigeon hole the sexes as the same when it comes to sex in a marriage in a help forum.


----------



## Trickster

I think I know what T2 is trying to say...

One of the many marriage books I have read had a study about M/F sexuality.

This was done at a college. Not at a bar 

One very attractive woman went up to 100 random men and propositioned them for sex, then gave them the phone number... No dinner, no going out for a drink first... Just sex....9 out of 10 of them called the number just to find out it was a number to the study/poll.

The opposite happened when an above average man went up to 100 random women.... Not a single phone call was made.

Fast forward 20 years and the same thing will happen... If a very attractive woman went up to the average man. Again...not the bar scene...Unless that man is happily married and sexually satisfied, he will jump on that opportunity.... If an good looking alpha man did the same to a woman, the average woman wouldn't take the man up on his offer.

My wife said that men are just horn dogs. My wife believes that sex once a week is normal and all married couples lose the sexual chemistry. Especially after 20 years....I don't believe that for a second. 

Very few women will have random sex...Their sexual need is just not as strong as the average man...The problem men have is that when we marry, we still have that sexual desire. I am almost always ready no matter how sleepy and tired I am...my wife can wake me up at 2 in the morning and I will be ready to go at it...No foreplay is necessary...My wife just has to wrap her arm around me...

It takes so much work to get the woman in the mood.... 

That is the difference T2 is talking about...

Do you agree T2?


----------



## john117

Society sends conflicting messages to women from an early age. That does not cause LD in itself but does provide extra inputs that have to be processed and rejected or used as needed.

In contrast there's far more consistent messages for males.

The basic mental models of behavior may be the same species wide but not the parameters going into them, or the weights. 

This does not make one gender intrinsically better than the other, just different.

Study how men vs women make decisions on things like finances or buying a car or a house and you'll see.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

T2, there is no gender issue here that is resulting in your problem. If that were the case, then the vast majority of women in the world would be scheming to manipulate their husbands thru emotional and sexual devices. In your world, it means most women have fairly low libidos, and because of that they have no problem with using sex as a weapon. It also implies that women typically don't feel a connection to men when they have sex since most women typically use sex as a weapon to get what they want in your world view.

Your issues are much more personal. FYI, having sex 20 times a year is NOT a normal libido. I'm more on the fence about your wife's libido, but I know it's higher than the amount of sex she is receiving from you. I believe that your wife has been having sex with other men. Sorry.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Trying2figureitout said:


> If we start with the premise males and females ARE different then perhaps we can cut through the noise that says they aren't..otherwise we are trying to resolve an issue assuming all is equal it isn't


The issue to be resolved is between two individuals. Doesn't get more unequal than that.

I don't mean to get on a soap box, but I didn't make my point very well above. Here's an elaboration if you are interested.

Generalizations are useful things, extremely useful at times. People can even make progress thinking with generalizations in mind, even when the generalizations have flaws in them -- at least they can provide something to think about, and language to communicate with. (Not optimal, but...something.)

But there are dangers. 

One danger is when generalizations are used as a substitute for thinking about the concrete situation. Not 100% accusing you of doing that, as I haven't read your posts much yet. But your declaration that "it's a gender issue" leaves me thinking that is a likely possibility. I guess it's on me to go read your posts to figure out what you meant and what sort of action that implies to you.

Another danger is to state generalizations too "sweepingly" that those that don't fit the mold take offense. Even when one doesn't really mean it that "sweepingly", mis-stating it here risks losing people, helpful people.

I will give you that it is useful sometimes to discuss the differences, as you see them, between men in general and women in general. But, to go as far as equating gender with cause, then that is too "sweeping" for many.

It's no fun being on the receiving end of an overly-stated generalization; call me Mr. Sensitive, but I never like it when it happens to me. But, worse, it derails the conversation and folks that might have insight -- unique insight that might be helpful -- might lose interest in helping. 


My two cents.
​


> As for statistics of course you will likely say things are good again just the way humans work when presented with a survey they embellish.


I don't understand what you mean. (I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe I am missing some context.)

But, to be clear, I'm not here to judge whether your marriage is better or worse than it was, and whether that is a direct or indirect of your apparently not-popular-around-here approach. (Gee, you are indeed getting raked over the coals here for that. I'm hoping folks here are all friends!) 

I'm not even wanting to get into an extended debate about the correctness or incorrectness of your generalizations.

The message I am trying to convey is, there are millions of women out there that wouldn't treat their husbands the same way your wife has treated you, and my wife has treated me. There are lots of potential reasons why we are treated the way we are. Don't assume your chances are low of finding a better match if you were to divorce. Don't assume you just need to figure out to bridge a gender gap of some sort. There are people out there that are just emotionally unavailable or attracted to different things or..... and some of those sorts of things are as about gender-neutral as it gets. The answers are in the details, not in generalities.




> I don't blame biology I blame those that try to pigeon hole the sexes as the same when it comes to sex in a marriage in a help forum.


These are difficult things to discuss, let alone keep straight in my mind. I happen to believe there are traits that fairly frequently occur in males, and some of those I don't like. I happen to think I am not the "typical male", yet at the same time I bristle when I hear others describe or act as if there is such a thing as a "typical male". A bit of a contradiction, isn't it?

I try to resolve it by accepting pigeon holing is always a risk, and I try to be on guard against it. It's easy to see other's pigeon holing when it goes against my experience or wishes, and, presumably extremely difficult for me to see my own.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Trickster said:


> I think I know what T2 is trying to say...
> 
> One of the many marriage books I have read had a study about M/F sexuality.
> 
> This was done at a college. Not at a bar
> 
> One very attractive woman went up to 100 random men and propositioned them for sex, then gave them the phone number... No dinner, no going out for a drink first... Just sex....9 out of 10 of them called the number just to find out it was a number to the study/poll.
> 
> The opposite happened when an above average man went up to 100 random women.... Not a single phone call was made.
> 
> Fast forward 20 years and the same thing will happen... If a very attractive woman went up to the average man. Again...not the bar scene...Unless that man is happily married and sexually satisfied, he will jump on that opportunity.... If an good looking alpha man did the same to a woman, the average woman wouldn't take the man up on his offer.
> 
> My wife said that men are just horn dogs. My wife believes that sex once a week is normal and all married couples lose the sexual chemistry. Especially after 20 years....I don't believe that for a second.
> 
> Very few women will have random sex...Their sexual need is just not as strong as the average man...The problem men have is that when we marry, we still have that sexual desire. I am almost always ready no matter how sleepy and tired I am...my wife can wake me up at 2 in the morning and I will be ready to go at it...No foreplay is necessary...My wife just has to wrap her arm around me...
> 
> It takes so much work to get the woman in the mood....
> 
> That is the difference T2 is talking about...
> 
> Do you agree T2?


Absolutely yes


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Plan 9 from OS said:


> T2, there is no gender issue here that is resulting in your problem. If that were the case, then the vast majority of women in the world would be scheming to manipulate their husbands thru emotional and sexual devices. In your world, it means most women have fairly low libidos, and because of that they have no problem with using sex as a weapon. It also implies that women typically don't feel a connection to men when they have sex since most women typically use sex as a weapon to get what they want in your world view.
> 
> Your issues are much more personal. FYI, having sex 20 times a year is NOT a normal libido. I'm more on the fence about your wife's libido, but I know it's higher than the amount of sex she is receiving from you. I believe that your wife has been having sex with other men. Sorry.


In my world view there are two libidos male and female and for most of their life its UNEQUAL...and also in nearly 100% of marriages the female libido is the one generally met consistently...and not the male one. Sex is rarely equal if we were just to take into account selfish sexual desire of each spouse individually in a vacuum. The male tends to curtail to the female throughout which works in some marriages until the female decides no..not worth it. The reverse can also hold true but I believe it again is precipitated by the female libido difference at the heart of it...some guys just punish her or they say forget it and move on..not worth it...or the female lets herself go.

I'm sure those females who really look back at their marriages where the husband turns them down can trace it back to the earlier years and the imbalance of libidos or another physical issue like gaining weight...and the H seeks porn or other to make up for the lack of sexual gratification.

Further more since we are meeting from the get go the female libido standard rather than the male one which we suppressed already then any issues tailspin us men into a sexless hell.

Just the way it is....you can claim gender has nothing to do with it but I believe you are completely wrong and the gender played a significant role in my situation and many others.

*This should be EASY if we all have the same inherent libido throughout ....obviously it isn't*

Again I am not passing judgement on female libido... what I am trying to do is to get some of you to take the blinders off and quit being so PC. This is a gender issue at the heart of the matter.

And yes women can more easily forgo sex than a man especially after having kids up until then its more even yet still unequal...after the disparity grows immensely. Hence issues at years 15,16,17,18 and THIS FORUM.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

T2 - Please start up another thread so folks can better debate and discuss your "theories" that you contend will start working any day now.

BB32 - How are things on your end? Where is your mind right now.


----------



## LongWalk

If BB wants T2 to reduce his input, that is reasonable. I think he should say something if he agrees with you.

re: generalizations about sexual behavior
Male and female behavior differs. How could it not? Everyone knows the overall scheme. Women have a bigger investment in sex from an evolutionary point of view. Therefore, they are less willing to have sex with males who do not excite them. Husbands may not be exciting, for they know them too well and they may have beta-ized them, further diminishing their appeal.

Still, one would expect that general horniness would still lead to sexual intercourse in marriage because of convenience. If that doesn't happen, then one or both partners must act. T2 is unwilling to act. BB is trying to change things. Let us wish him and his wife luck.

re: the social psychology experiment of asking random men and women to hook up just for sex

The soccer superstar Christiano Ronaldo had a baby with a waitress. He did not bother with any pretense of courtship.


> A "friend" described the moment the two lovers met: "Ronni looked the girl in the eye and said extremely directly: 'Me, you, Fvck, fvck.'"
> 
> The woman apparently played hard to get, however, saying: "What?"
> 
> Ronaldo, perhaps realising he was being a little bit forward, changed tack. The window by his table was steamed up, so he drew a heart on it with his finger and said, "Me, you, kiss." Ronaldo then reportedly took the waitress back to his hotel room.
> 
> The friend explained: "That's typical Ronni – he pretends his English is terrible when it suits him, and he comes straight to the point. It was just yet another one-night stand and Ronnie assumed he would never see her again."


Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/entertainm...-%E2%80%98-waitress-la%E2%80%99#ixzz2yVTzGD1c


----------



## Trying2figureitout

LongWalk said:


> If BB wants T2 to reduce his input, that is reasonable. I think he should say something if he agrees with you.
> 
> re: generalizations about sexual behavior
> Male and female behavior differs. How could it not? Everyone knows the overall scheme. Women have a bigger investment in sex from an evolutionary point of view. Therefore, they are less willing to have sex with males who do not excite them. Husbands may not be exciting, for they know them too well and they may have beta-ized them, further diminishing their appeal.
> 
> Still, one would expect that general horniness would still lead to sexual intercourse in marriage because of convenience. If that doesn't happen, then one or both partners must act. T2 is unwilling to act. BB is trying to change things. Let us wish him and his wife luck.
> 
> re: the social psychology experiment of asking random men and women to hook up just for sex
> 
> The soccer superstar Christiano Ronaldo had a baby with a waitress. He did not bother with any pretense of courtship.
> 
> Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/entertainm...-%E2%80%98-waitress-la%E2%80%99#ixzz2yVTzGD1c


I disagree with the statement I am unwilling to act. Its not like I just sat around for four years with my hands up in the air, i identified the issue within 3 months and acted on it. Sure much of it was nothing but at key moments over 4 years and more recently I acted. Hence the plan.

That is what my wife calls drama and that is also why I might still divorce her. Although the longer we go the less likely that is to happen since real change is in the air...in a large part due to the plan.

If anything I am unwilling to give up and have made all the necessary changes along the way. I too am trying to change things.


----------



## MEM2020

Tall Man,
On further consideration I think it best for T2 to continue with his ummm - contributions to this thread. 

That way Boston can get a feel for what his future holds if he doesn't get a handle on his situation. 




Tall Average Guy said:


> T2 - Please start up another thread so folks can better debate and discuss your "theories" that you contend will start working any day now.
> 
> BB32 - How are things on your end? Where is your mind right now.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree with the statement I am unwilling to act. Its not like I just sat around for four years with my hands up in the air, i identified the issue within 3 months and acted on it. Sure much of it was nothing but at key moments over 4 years and more recently I acted. Hence the plan.


You just admitted that you pretty much just sat on your hands for the majority of the 4 years.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Plan 9 from OS said:


> You just admitted that you pretty much just sat on your hands for the majority of the 4 years.


On purpose...BUT that does not mean I did nothing...and my results are still pending.

Think about it for a sec.... I did nothing (in terms of communication) for six month stretches yet its DRAMA and a turn off to her the 0.0178% I actually discussed or communicated about the issue. Just imagine if I were in her face 24/7 about it.... 

Seriously give her a break from the drama.

I believe in action, long evaluation, action, long evaluation, action...

I believe that is the key to actual change. I will see first hand.
Part of the plan.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

It's all part of the plan people!


----------



## MEM2020

Far, far worse than nothing. He has issued ultimatums several times and then folded. 

His credibility at home is about the same as it is on TAM. 




Plan 9 from OS said:


> You just admitted that you pretty much just sat on your hands for the majority of the 4 years.


----------



## Lyris

Trickster said:


> I think I know what T2 is trying to say...
> 
> One of the many marriage books I have read had a study about M/F sexuality.
> 
> This was done at a college. Not at a bar
> 
> One very attractive woman went up to 100 random men and propositioned them for sex, then gave them the phone number... No dinner, no going out for a drink first... Just sex....9 out of 10 of them called the number just to find out it was a number to the study/poll.
> 
> The opposite happened when an above average man went up to 100 random women.... Not a single phone call was made.
> 
> Fast forward 20 years and the same thing will happen... If a very attractive woman went up to the average man. Again...not the bar scene...Unless that man is happily married and sexually satisfied, he will jump on that opportunity.... If an good looking alpha man did the same to a woman, the average woman wouldn't take the man up on his offer.
> 
> My wife said that men are just horn dogs. My wife believes that sex once a week is normal and all married couples lose the sexual chemistry. Especially after 20 years....I don't believe that for a second.
> 
> Very few women will have random sex...Their sexual need is just not as strong as the average man...The problem men have is that when we marry, we still have that sexual desire. I am almost always ready no matter how sleepy and tired I am...my wife can wake me up at 2 in the morning and I will be ready to go at it...No foreplay is necessary...My wife just has to wrap her arm around me...
> 
> It takes so much work to get the woman in the mood....
> 
> That is the difference T2 is talking about...
> 
> Do you agree T2?


Um, how does that have anything to do with libido? If a complete stranger came up to me in a bar and offered sex, I would immediately think he was a crazy murderer.

Women are more vulnerable to sexual violence. They need to be more careful. That's all that stupid study proved.


----------



## Trickster

Lyris said:


> Um, how does that have anything to do with libido? If a complete stranger came up to me in a bar and offered sex, I would immediately think he was a crazy murderer.
> 
> 
> *I did say that it WASN'T at a bar...you are right though... Women think with their brains, with men, we will do almost anything for sex. Even sex with our wife...The wife doesn't have to do much...my wife just laughed every time I opened a new marriage book. That just validated that I was the fvcked up one.
> 
> I like what LongWalk said about Ronnie... That doesn't really count because he is a foreigner... As well as a famous athlete...*
> 
> 
> Women are more vulnerable to sexual violence. They need to be more careful. That's all that stupid study proved.


Not much with libido. Just the difference in sex in general.

In almost every thread in a near sexless marriage, it it ALWAYS the man that has to change to get the respect and desire from the wife. Although there are some threads with women with a LD husband, even then it is the man that has to do the changing...

If the man wants sex, he is the one who has to become more desirable to the wife...Anytime my wife wants sex, I am ready to go at it...Always....The stars never have to align, I don't need my wife to make dinner, I don't need to be romanced, I don't need a massage, I don't need romantic music in the background, I don't need to cuddle... My wife can stay overweight and not take care of herself...All that is nice, but with my sex drive, none of that is necessary...All my wife has to say is" let's fvck..." 

Then i say..."OK...sounds like a good idea to me...." 

At the same time, if I do all that for her, it doesn't make her want sex more...all that is nice she says, but it doesn't make her horny.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Trickster said:


> Not much with libido. Just the difference in sex in general.
> 
> In almost every thread in a near sexless marriage, it it ALWAYS the man that has to change to get the respect and desire from the wife. Although there are some threads with women with a LD husband, even then it is the man that has to do the changing...
> 
> If the man wants sex, he is the one who has to become more desirable to the wife...Anytime my wife wants sex, I am ready to go at it...Always....The stars never have to align, I don't need my wife to make dinner, I don't need to be romanced, I don't need a massage, I don't need romantic music in the background, I don't need to cuddle... My wife can stay overweight and not take care of herself...All that is nice, but with my sex drive, none of that is necessary...All my wife has to say is" let's fvck..."
> 
> Then i say..."OK...sounds like a good idea to me...."
> 
> At the same time, if I do all that for her, it doesn't make her want sex more...all that is nice she says, but it doesn't make her horny.


Weird how that works isn't it?

Oh... but it cannot possibly be a gender thing. That would mean generalizing.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Trying2figureitout said:


> Weird how that works isn't it?
> 
> Oh... but it cannot possibly be a gender thing. That would mean generalizing.


Please, start a new thread. What you're posting is a new wrinkle that I would LOVE to respond to, but not on this thread any longer. This is supposed to be about Boston's situation.


----------



## Trickster

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Please, start a new thread. What you're posting is a new wrinkle that I would LOVE to respond to, but not on this thread any longer. This is supposed to be about Boston's situation.


Sorry.....I was helping the hijack...:slap::


----------



## BostonBruins32

I probably owe an update.

So I took some time away. She was pretty upset, and I didnt really feel hyper upset, which is surprising to me. We had a healthy, lengthy talk. It really felt like I was saying the same things, but I did add other aspects. 

So we discussed many of the things mentioned before, intimacy, eye rolling, empathy, her seemingly angry feelings etc. I expressed that the 'time away' she needed months ago was sensitive to me (she never took this notion serious, more of a get over it attitude), that constant criticism and helicoptering as I parent takes its toll on me.etc.. nothing new here. 

Then, to MEM's delight, I did clear the air about a few things. I told her at this point I am not interested in having another child witht he state of our marriage as is. She seemed very very surprised to hear this, meaning my assumption that she didnt know I felt this way was right or she was acting like she was surprised ( i think the former). She was upset by it but understood my stance. I also gave her what I felt were examples of why I did not think she loved me, but rather the 'package' offered (car, home, child etc). I also told her that I appreciated her lettting me have sex with her for the past month or two. I also told her that my perception of improvement (things I've focused on improving for myself, the family, and around the house) and her perception of improvement are very different. Neither is correct vs incorrect, but rather just different. The reason that I percieve these the be different is because a month or so ago, when we talked, I heard her comment "i guess" when I asked if she saw any changes or improvements. If you were to ask me, I'd say there have been drastic improvements/changes. So its a different page. 

so she listened and she talked. I don't know really where it goes from here. I didnt tell her this, but internally I remain firm in my belief that she does not love me for me, but rather for what I offer. I heard things from her that counter this, but her actions have said something else. To be honest, i don't know how I feel about this relationship. I feel really really distant from knowing who she is and where she stands. Maybe I'm not listening or seeing, or maybe shes not communicating. I'm sure both are to blame still.

and PS.. did T2 get banned?


----------



## MEM2020

The Tiger awakens. 

Don't lose sight of something very critical: your wife's comments about your improvement - were sincere. You changed a bunch of stuff and - shocker - she didn't love you more. Hence her comment that she hadn't noticed much change. Which actually means: she didn't *feel* much change - for *you*. 

Don't hold this against her. This is deeply hard wired human behavior. We reverse engineer our view of events so as to align them with our feelings. 

Her two predominant feelings are in direct conflict:
- Her desire for kids and an upper middle class life
- The absence of love/desire for you

Her honest communication alternatives end in divorce:
1. Acknowledge that you've improved a LOT in terms of he requests, while admitting her feelings for you haven't changed hardly at all. 
2. Admit that her primary drivers for remaining married are those you listed. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> I probably owe an update.
> 
> So I took some time away. She was pretty upset, and I didnt really feel hyper upset, which is surprising to me. We had a healthy, lengthy talk. It really felt like I was saying the same things, but I did add other aspects.
> 
> So we discussed many of the things mentioned before, intimacy, eye rolling, empathy, her seemingly angry feelings etc. I expressed that the 'time away' she needed months ago was sensitive to me (she never took this notion serious, more of a get over it attitude), that constant criticism and helicoptering as I parent takes its toll on me.etc.. nothing new here.
> 
> Then, to MEM's delight, I did clear the air about a few things. I told her at this point I am not interested in having another child witht he state of our marriage as is. She seemed very very surprised to hear this, meaning my assumption that she didnt know I felt this way was right or she was acting like she was surprised ( i think the former). She was upset by it but understood my stance. I also gave her what I felt were examples of why I did not think she loved me, but rather the 'package' offered (car, home, child etc). I also told her that I appreciated her lettting me have sex with her for the past month or two. I also told her that my perception of improvement (things I've focused on improving for myself, the family, and around the house) and her perception of improvement are very different. Neither is correct vs incorrect, but rather just different. The reason that I percieve these the be different is because a month or so ago, when we talked, I heard her comment "i guess" when I asked if she saw any changes or improvements. If you were to ask me, I'd say there have been drastic improvements/changes. So its a different page.
> 
> so she listened and she talked. I don't know really where it goes from here. I didnt tell her this, but internally I remain firm in my belief that she does not love me for me, but rather for what I offer. I heard things from her that counter this, but her actions have said something else. To be honest, i don't know how I feel about this relationship. I feel really really distant from knowing who she is and where she stands. Maybe I'm not listening or seeing, or maybe shes not communicating. I'm sure both are to blame still.
> 
> and PS.. did T2 get banned?


----------



## MEM2020

It took me a while to process the post from Lyris. 

Better match is from the HBO series: The Newsroom. M2 is Mackenzie. Kind of looks like her. Definitely acts like her.

And the dynamic between Will and Mac is pretty close - to our dynamic at home. 




Lyris said:


> Who's your GoT character, John? I'm guessing it's Tyrion. Or maybe Eddard Stark. MEM, you're definitely an Eddard. Married to a Cersei.
> 
> I'm married to a Jaime Lannister, lucky for me. And I myself am an intriguing combination of Brienne and Cersei.


----------



## LongWalk

So, BB, do you think the increase in sex is due to her fear of your marriage ending?

Do you think that this may get her to fall in love with you, or desire you sexually?

I have this feeling, though it could be wrong, that when a spouse begins to check out and pull away the to be left behind spouse become emotionally involved again. And it is possible that hysterical bonding sex could take their marriage to a new place. But I suspect it is not so common.


----------



## john117

Either B2 is comparing notes with J2 or half a bottle of Mount Gay Rum and "Barbarella" on Netflix is a better aphrodisiac than I thought :rofl:


----------



## Trickster

Hey Boston

I know where you are coming from... My wife is about the same... She didn't think anything was ever wrong... It was a lot of the little things that made me realize that she doesn't love me.

The sex did increase a lot, but it was for the wrong reasons... I had one foot at the door...I wanted to feel that emotional connection and it never happened...So, I pushed way too hard though and eventually forced her to tell me how she really feels. 

"I am not in love with you. I like our companionship/friendship and having an intact home"


More sex didn't bring any emotional bonding as much as had hoped...

She wants to stay married at all costs, even if it mean we open our marriage so I can have sex with other women.... That was not what I wanted. I just wanted to hear the words" I Love You" She never said those words...

I can't "trick" her into loving me...no amount of changing will fix that...I am just tired...

For now, I just accept what is...


As for all my improvements? She turned my 180 right back on me saying that I should do all that for myself and that I should feel better about myself because of it.. She then acknowledged all my self improvements, new interests, hobby's... It just doesn't make her love me more.

The ball in in my court now...

It seems the same for you... The ball is in your court.


----------



## Lyris

MEM11363 said:


> It took me a while to process the post from Lyris.
> 
> Better match is from the HBO series: The Newsroom. M2 is Mackenzie. Kind of looks like her. Definitely acts like her.
> 
> And the dynamic between Will and Mac is pretty close - to our dynamic at home.


Ooh ouch. That makes me sad. I only saw a couple of episodes and I couldn't bear that character.

Maybe she improved? She was so ditzy!


----------



## LongWalk

Trickster,

Accept the open marriage offer.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> The Tiger awakens.
> 
> Don't lose sight of something very critical: your wife's comments about your improvement - were sincere. You changed a bunch of stuff and - shocker - she didn't love you more. Hence her comment that she hadn't noticed much change. Which actually means: she didn't *feel* much change - for *you*.
> 
> Don't hold this against her. This is deeply hard wired human behavior. We reverse engineer our view of events so as to align them with our feelings.
> 
> Her two predominant feelings are in direct conflict:
> - Her desire for kids and an upper middle class life
> - The absence of love/desire for you
> 
> *Her honest communication alternatives end in divorce:
> 1. Acknowledge that you've improved a LOT in terms of he requests, while admitting her feelings for you haven't changed hardly at all.
> 2. Admit that her primary drivers for remaining married are those you listed*.


What do the comments in red mean? Not sure I follow.

Regardless I get your point i think.

Trickster, my wife does say I love you. She reaches to hold my hand a lot, hugs etc. She wants to do things together all the time, (if shes doing a Target run and child is at grandparents, she wants me to come etc). So its simply not clear cut. I think if she were more consistent in her behavior, good or bad, I could make an easier assessment. 

She's like a pitcher who shows flashes of brilliance, but is too often injured to be reliable. Others have mentioned here (my mom said something similar) that this may very well be the way she loves. Cold at times. Rude at times to those closest. But beneath the onion layer, there is love. I'm not sure I buy into this, and I'd imagine MEM feels the same. 

She got me a card recently, random love you card, and wrote in it smoething about loving her despite how nuts (her words) she can be at times. This was like the first kink in the armor I've seen from here. Admitting she can be difficult?!? i almost fell out of my seat. 

Counseling, talks, etc etc have all failed at getting her to just admit any of her behavior is unacceptable. Gosh to me its so easy. You know when you're being an @ss. You know when you're being rude. Just acknowledge it, appologize, and try to improve. Super basic stuff here. But its like pulling teeth for this 30 year old woman.


----------



## BostonBruins32

LongWalk said:


> Trickster,
> 
> Accept the open marriage offer.


I'd rather accept a divorce than open marriage.


----------



## Trickster

BostonBruins32 said:


> What do the comments in red mean? Not sure I follow.
> 
> Regardless I get your point i think.
> 
> Trickster, my wife does say I love you. She reaches to hold my hand a lot, hugs etc. She wants to do things together all the time, (if shes doing a Target run and child is at grandparents, she wants me to come etc). So its simply not clear cut. I think if she were more consistent in her behavior, good or bad, I could make an easier assessment.
> 
> She's like a pitcher who shows flashes of brilliance, but is too often injured to be reliable. Others have mentioned here (my mom said something similar) that this may very well be the way she loves. Cold at times. Rude at times to those closest. But beneath the onion layer, there is love. I'm not sure I buy into this, and I'd imagine MEM feels the same.
> 
> She got me a card recently, random love you card, and wrote in it smoething about loving her despite how nuts (her words) she can be at times. This was like the first kink in the armor I've seen from here. Admitting she can be difficult?!? i almost fell out of my seat.
> 
> Counseling, talks, etc etc have all failed at getting her to just admit any of her behavior is unacceptable. Gosh to me its so easy. You know when you're being an @ss. You know when you're being rude. Just acknowledge it, appologize, and try to improve. Super basic stuff here. But its like pulling teeth for this 30 year old woman.



After all of our communication and my wife telling me that she doesn't love me, she has been more affectionate than ever... I don't understand that at all..

Even with our open marriage. I am meeting other women and I talk about them with her... That's what the open part is... She may realize that there is a chance even as crazy as I have been here lately, that another woman may be interested in me...

She even cuddles with me before she falls asleep. She hasn't done that I. 22 years. Why now?

Is this that "hysterical bonding"

My wife has moments when I feel she loves me and desires me...Way more often in the past couple of weeks...

I know she doesn't want this open marriage like she tells me...I don't believe she is testing me...I know I am much calmer these days... 

I am confident I would be just fine if we D...I just accept it for now... Not gonna rush to D... Nor will she


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> She's like a pitcher who shows flashes of brilliance, but is too often injured to be reliable. Others have mentioned here (my mom said something similar) that this may very well be the way she loves. Cold at times. Rude at times to those closest. But beneath the onion layer, there is love. I'm not sure I buy into this, and I'd imagine MEM feels the same.


This reads a lot like her CSA issues. Without addressing them head on, she may not be able to change this. To take your analgy, if she refuses surgery and rehab, she can't avoid the arm problems.

She may not address those issues until she has no other choice (that is, you are walking out the door). Of course, that still may not be enough.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
When B2 entered counseling she was angry at you about a LOT of stuff. Your impatience with B3, your tendency to crowd her in and out of bed, and your lack of helping her at home. 

You had two main complaints about her:
- She was often harsh/cold/hyper critical 
- Sexually you two were a disaster

Objectively you have improved a lot. I think she hoped she would love/desire you more if you improved. I'm betting she's as disappointed as you are on that front. 

But a part of the reason you are in this situation is that you had/have a very broken power dynamic. 

*She is modeling her parents marriage. It's ok for her Mom to call her dad in from another room to hand her something that's a couple feet away. THAT is the model she aspires to. And THAT is the model you want no part of. *

It isn't malice. It is just what she's accustomed to. 

That means that she is making a determined effort to continue to be the person who is important in the marriage. Part of that is based on the dual premise that: 
- you are lucky to have her and
- she's not so lucky to have you

Acknowledging that you've improved a lot and are a really good husband erodes the princess/serf model. It is part of her acknowledging that she IS lucky to have you. 

That princess/serf model is the one where your physical and emotional needs are not a priority to her. 

But you have fed this dynamic. For 6+ months you have been silent any time she mentioned B4. At this stage in life, B4 is about the highest priority in her life. Given that, don't you find it odd that she never once asked about your silence? 

I don't find it odd. She is accustomed to compliance. And had/has no interest in a direct discussion of your needs/her needs. Princesses describe requirements and if needed apply the whip. They don't engage in negotiations with their lessors. 

To be fair you started giving her enough edge, that she is letting you have more sex with her. But that happened without any discussion of the quality of the experience for her/and or any talk on her part that this was a long term minimum commitment she was signing up for. This was simply a way to avoid any instability in the lead up to B4. 

As for the viability of your marriage. It all hinges on the answer to this question: 
Is the main cause of your bad dynamic driven by:
- a big power imbalance or
- a lack of chemistry

You can fix a power imbalance. It is very hard, but it can be done. You can't fix a lack of chemistry. 

And the chemistry thing is way beyond sex. 

I'll tell you this for certain. The base chemistry M2 and I have is the single biggest driver in our remaining together. 

It's why she lights up most of the time when she sees me at the end of the day. And it's why I just shrugged when I realized that sex / intercourse was likely off the table for good for me at the age of 49. 



BostonBruins32 said:


> What do the comments in red mean? Not sure I follow.
> 
> Regardless I get your point i think.
> 
> Trickster, my wife does say I love you. She reaches to hold my hand a lot, hugs etc. She wants to do things together all the time, (if shes doing a Target run and child is at grandparents, she wants me to come etc). So its simply not clear cut. I think if she were more consistent in her behavior, good or bad, I could make an easier assessment.
> 
> She's like a pitcher who shows flashes of brilliance, but is too often injured to be reliable. Others have mentioned here (my mom said something similar) that this may very well be the way she loves. Cold at times. Rude at times to those closest. But beneath the onion layer, there is love. I'm not sure I buy into this, and I'd imagine MEM feels the same.
> 
> She got me a card recently, random love you card, and wrote in it smoething about loving her despite how nuts (her words) she can be at times. This was like the first kink in the armor I've seen from here. Admitting she can be difficult?!? i almost fell out of my seat.
> 
> Counseling, talks, etc etc have all failed at getting her to just admit any of her behavior is unacceptable. Gosh to me its so easy. You know when you're being an @ss. You know when you're being rude. Just acknowledge it, appologize, and try to improve. Super basic stuff here. But its like pulling teeth for this 30 year old woman.


----------



## Lyris

I find it a little bit telling that even in an I love you card, the primary focus was on thanking *you* for loving *her*. It might be admitting she is difficult, it also might be reminding you of where your position is - the supplicant, the one that will put up with being treated badly.


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> What do the comments in red mean? Not sure I follow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless I get your point i think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trickster, my wife does say I love you. She reaches to hold my hand a lot, hugs etc. She wants to do things together all the time, (if shes doing a Target run and child is at grandparents, she wants me to come etc). So its simply not clear cut. I think if she were more consistent in her behavior, good or bad, I could make an easier assessment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's like a pitcher who shows flashes of brilliance, but is too often injured to be reliable. Others have mentioned here (my mom said something similar) that this may very well be the way she loves. Cold at times. Rude at times to those closest. But beneath the onion layer, there is love. I'm not sure I buy into this, and I'd imagine MEM feels the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She got me a card recently, random love you card, and wrote in it smoething about loving her despite how nuts (her words) she can be at times. This was like the first kink in the armor I've seen from here. Admitting she can be difficult?!? i almost fell out of my seat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Counseling, talks, etc etc have all failed at getting her to just admit any of her behavior is unacceptable. Gosh to me its so easy. You know when you're being an @ss. You know when you're being rude. Just acknowledge it, appologize, and try to improve. Super basic stuff here. But its like pulling teeth for this 30 year old woman.







Understanding the onion layers has been a curse for me.





For twenty years, I have "seen through" my wife's hurts and disappointments and self-doubts and insecurities and depression and anxiety and perimenopause and menopause, etc. and thought "underneath it all" she truly loves me.



There have been glimpses of the loving person she could have been and I had hoped an expected her to be becoming. But she never became that person, and years 5 -20 have been a long slow motion slide in the other direction.



At 47, I cannot remember ever feeling truly loved by her. Only, at best, feeling needed as a crutch, when she should have been walking on her own (my bad). And more lately, just being needed as a scapegoat.



I wish I had lived my thirties and forties differently. They are gone.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

I don't believe that B2 has a clue as to how selfish she is. 

Her parental template is not only skewed, it is skewed in the most toxic possible way. Because the father acts as if it's perfectly fine to be summoned by his masters voice to come and do some menial task. Note: This is not a case where a substantive action occurs in an unhealthy context. This is a case where the action itself has no substance, and is merely a prop that allows B2's mom to assert her status in the marriage. 

And that's why I raised the question. Chemistry issue or power dynamic. Many sexless marriages have this power dynamic:

LD person REQUIRES the HD person to have:
- FULLY met their needs for an extended period of time AND
- Done some sort of big/expensive romantic gesture AND
- Happened to initiate at a moment when they were feeling a bit of raw desire 

These are LD spouses with fully functioning responsive desire, who are simply demanding a huge price for them to LET their spouse have sex with them. 

Once they start they are fine. But their ignition sequence is so totally self focused that it's extremely hard to get them to allow themselves to be warmed up. 

Of course their HD spouses ever escalating efforts to please them just amplify their sense of entitlement and certainty that this is how a marriage should be. 

The reason I'm on the fence about Boston's core issue is that his wife seems to like a lot of affection. That tends to imply at least some chemistry. 

It took many conversations, with specific clear cut examples for M2 to realize how selfish she was outside the bedroom. If she had acted the same way in the bedroom, as outside of it, we wouldn't have lasted a year. To be fair to her, she knew that for the get go. 

But even geisha girl sexual saturation doesn't make the summons from another room ok. 




Lyris said:


> I find it a little bit telling that even in an I love you card, the primary focus was on thanking *you* for loving *her*. It might be admitting she is difficult, it also might be reminding you of where your position is - the supplicant, the one that will put up with being treated badly.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Interesting stuff. 

B2 is definately her mom. or on some level her mom. One thing I find interesting is that she likes to do things for me (obviously outside the bedroom). 

So for example, I was thinking about making coffee last night after dinner, aroudn the time B3 goes to bed. B3 was done with brushing her teeth and the routine is that I put B3 to bed at night, B2 puts B3 to bed during nap (exceptions here and there but B3 loves the consistency). So my wife heard me rumbling around the coffee maker. She jumped off the couch and said, 'want me to make some coffee?'. I said "no its ok, i'll make it after I get B3 to bed". B2 insisted on making it, despite not wanting any for herself. 

There are often examples of this where she lends a hand or offers help on something. I typically politely refuse her help. To be completely honest, internally I feel like if I acceppt too much of her help then I may be giving her more ammo to complain about things. For years she would complain about being the one who had to "make dinner when she got home and clean everything". What she forgot to mention during these rants to me or others is that I offered to make dinner and I also asked her when I get home "what can I do to help". She would 80% of the time say shes all set. You can't have it both ways. You cant tell the counselor, your mom, your friends, and me that I dont help out enough, when you say you have it yourself. 

After X amount of years of this, I just stopped allowing her to help me as much. I didnt want anything held over my head. I don't want to owe her or give her ammunition to say I'm not pulling my weight. I don't complain when I do more around the house or with B3 than her (when we are both home, I tend to B3 much more than 50%). If I truly need a hand, I ask. But for trivial things or nonurgent things, I do not reach out for help. 

As I type this, i wonder if it makes her feel lesser sometimes. Or does she like the lopsided treatment. Meaning I do XYZ for her and I politely reject letting her do XYZ for me. 

I'm sharing this because its important to note when trying to really decifer how she feels about me. She is affectionate and likes to do things for me. She just has princess like demands.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Lyris said:


> I find it a little bit telling that even in an I love you card, the primary focus was on thanking *you* for loving *her*. It might be admitting she is difficult, it also might be reminding you of where your position is - the supplicant, the one that will put up with being treated badly.



Could be. 

On the flip side it had been a hectic day or two or three. I think one of the most underrated things she loves is when I remain calm or stoic amongst stressful times. 

There had been heavy melt downs with B3(embarressing and stressful if you let it get to you). When I handle these like Tom Brady handles a big game, B2 responds exceptionally well. There has also been stressful times at work for B2, for which she rants about to me. Old me would offer solutions(as I think there are a number of things shes handling wrong there and I have some ideas she could try). New me empathizes and just listens. B2 could seem on the verge of tears, but I think through my reaction, she cools down much quicker lately.

So for the past few months, while shes wearing emotion on her sleeve for these stressful moments in our daily life, I'm keeping cool and just working through them. If shes breaking down, and I break down with her, things go to $hit between us. If she's breaking down and I do not break down, she snaps back much quicker and draws closer to me (affection etc).

Granted she doesnt peel off her pants and jump on me, but you get my point.

So the the card could be her saying "good servant, know your role". Or the card could be her reaching out saying "I see what you did there and I appreciate it". Who knows.


----------



## BostonBruins32

PieceOfSky said:


> Understanding the onion layers has been a curse for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For twenty years, I have "seen through" my wife's hurts and disappointments and self-doubts and insecurities and depression and anxiety and perimenopause and menopause, etc. and thought "underneath it all" she truly loves me.
> 
> 
> 
> There have been glimpses of the loving person she could have been and I had hoped an expected her to be becoming. But she never became that person, and years 5 -20 have been a long slow motion slide in the other direction.
> 
> 
> 
> At 47, I cannot remember ever feeling truly loved by her. Only, at best, feeling needed as a crutch, when she should have been walking on her own (my bad). And more lately, just being needed as a scapegoat.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had lived my thirties and forties differently. They are gone.


This sentiment directly addresses my concern about her someday checking out of the marriage or it collapsing.

Meaning that I fear less losing her and more about wasting 15 years, then losing her. I don't want to divorce her. I want her to feel better about us. I want to feel bettter about us. But by the same token, my biggest fear is a delay before an explosion. I've made this clear to her and to the counselor a while back. I don't fear being alone or divorced. I fear wasting X amount of years that I cant get back because someone was unable to make up thier mind with what they want.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Could be.
> 
> On the flip side it had been a hectic day or two or three. I think one of the most underrated things she loves is when I remain calm or stoic amongst stressful times.
> 
> There had been heavy melt downs with B3(embarressing and stressful if you let it get to you). When I handle these like Tom Brady handles a big game, B2 responds exceptionally well. There has also been stressful times at work for B2, for which she rants about to me. Old me would offer solutions(as I think there are a number of things shes handling wrong there and I have some ideas she could try). New me empathizes and just listens. B2 could seem on the verge of tears, but I think through my reaction, she cools down much quicker lately.
> 
> So for the past few months, while shes wearing emotion on her sleeve for these stressful moments in our daily life, I'm keeping cool and just working through them. If shes breaking down, and I break down with her, things go to $hit between us. If she's breaking down and I do not break down, she snaps back much quicker and draws closer to me (affection etc).
> 
> Granted she doesnt peel off her pants and jump on me, but you get my point.
> 
> So the the card could be her saying "good servant, know your role". Or the card could be her reaching out saying "I see what you did there and I appreciate it". Who knows.


Wow, BB, you describe the very behavior that my husband exhibits that is highly desirable to me--the keeping cool, the not breaking down if I'm breaking down. It's taken me awhile to be able to articulate to him why this is such a strong emotional need for me--for my emotions to matter less to him--but we've had increasing success and I cannot tell you how grateful I am for him to have listened, and responded, and worked with me. To not have to stuff how I feel because I'm afraid of his reaction . . . just a HUGE relief. 

And I'm not talking about me throwing fits or abusing him verbally; I'm talking about being able to say to him: I'm unhappy, and here is why, and it might not make sense to you and you might not agree with me but can you listen so I can get it off my chest. In the past my irritability and b*tchiness often came from trying to hold things in until they festered and came out in ways that were detrimental to our relationship. I take responsibility for that--and I've apologized for it many times. But I tended to keep things in because bringing them out just led to fights. Again, what a relief to no longer feel this way. 

Now, I understand your situation is different since you're still not seeing much of a change in her sexual desire. My desire goes through the roof when my husband meets this particular need of mine, but, then again, I have a pretty high drive. 

Still, one of the reasons that my h was so willing to meet this need of mine was that I'd worked so hard over the past year on brining back my desire for him--which is a huge need of his. 

I guess you can always hope that your wife will come to reciprocate and work on meeting needs that she knows are important to you. In the meantime, the increased harmony, affection and, hopefully, respect that your wife shows you might make your efforts at least worth something to you.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> What do the comments in red mean? Not sure I follow.
> 
> Regardless I get your point i think.
> 
> Trickster, my wife does say I love you. She reaches to hold my hand a lot, hugs etc. She wants to do things together all the time, (if shes doing a Target run and child is at grandparents, she wants me to come etc). So its simply not clear cut. I think if she were more consistent in her behavior, good or bad, I could make an easier assessment.
> 
> She's like a pitcher who shows flashes of brilliance, but is too often injured to be reliable. Others have mentioned here (my mom said something similar) that this may very well be the way she loves. Cold at times. Rude at times to those closest. But beneath the onion layer, there is love. I'm not sure I buy into this, and I'd imagine MEM feels the same.
> 
> *She got me a card recently, random love you card, and wrote in it smoething about loving her despite how nuts (her words) she can be at times. This was like the first kink in the armor I've seen from here. Admitting she can be difficult?!? i almost fell out of my seat. *
> 
> Counseling, talks, etc etc have all failed at getting her to just admit any of her behavior is unacceptable. Gosh to me its so easy. You know when you're being an @ss. You know when you're being rude. Just acknowledge it, appologize, and try to improve. Super basic stuff here. But its like pulling teeth for this 30 year old woman.


THAT is huge, in my opinion. She knows she's hard for you to love, but she wants you to anyway.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> On the flip side it had been a hectic day or two or three. I think one of the most underrated things she loves is when I remain calm or stoic amongst stressful times.
> 
> There had been heavy melt downs with B3(embarressing and stressful if you let it get to you). When I handle these like Tom Brady handles a big game, B2 responds exceptionally well. There has also been stressful times at work for B2, for which she rants about to me. Old me would offer solutions(as I think there are a number of things shes handling wrong there and I have some ideas she could try). New me empathizes and just listens. B2 could seem on the verge of tears, but I think through my reaction, she cools down much quicker lately.
> 
> So for the past few months, while shes wearing emotion on her sleeve for these stressful moments in our daily life, I'm keeping cool and just working through them. If shes breaking down, and I break down with her, things go to $hit between us. If she's breaking down and I do not break down, she snaps back much quicker and draws closer to me (affection etc).


I would think this would be a satisfying feeling as a man and husband. To finally understand how to "steady the ship".

My perception of Mem's posts is that he interprets everything your wife does in the worst possible negative light. Not sure WHY he does that? Projection not making sense since he seems to like his own W.

Seriously need to consider switching your sexual orientation if you want MO's daily without navigating feminine emotion. I still think the porn use is a problem. That isn't real. REAL women have feelings which can be hurt.


----------



## MEM2020

Getting,
I think you are describing a universally appealing behavior. 

And it's obvious that you get your part in it. And that you have empathy, which is something B2 appears to lack. 

Sometimes M2 and I will banter with each other like so: 

Are we having an 'I feel' talk or is this more of a 'you suck' type discussion?

In all honesty - both belong in a healthy marriage. But the 'you suck' discussions that happen while calm, tend to be constructive and tactful. Those that occur while emotionally flooded tend to be toxic. 

As far as Boston and B2 are concerned, I believe they are now at parity. 

If Boston sticks to the plan, B2 is about to traverse a crash course in empathy. Such a thing is every bit as useful as it is painful.

The empathy will come from being in a situation where her body is craving something with ever greater intensity that Boston could easily give her, but chooses not to. 




GettingIt said:


> Wow, BB, you describe the very behavior that my husband exhibits that is highly desirable to me--the keeping cool, the not breaking down if I'm breaking down. It's taken me awhile to be able to articulate to him why this is such a strong emotional need for me--for my emotions to matter less to him--but we've had increasing success and I cannot tell you how grateful I am for him to have listened, and responded, and worked with me. To not have to stuff how I feel because I'm afraid of his reaction . . . just a HUGE relief.
> 
> And I'm not talking about me throwing fits or abusing him verbally; I'm talking about being able to say to him: I'm unhappy, and here is why, and it might not make sense to you and you might not agree with me but can you listen so I can get it off my chest. In the past my irritability and b*tchiness often came from trying to hold things in until they festered and came out in ways that were detrimental to our relationship. I take responsibility for that--and I've apologized for it many times. But I tended to keep things in because bringing them out just led to fights. Again, what a relief to no longer feel this way.
> 
> Now, I understand your situation is different since you're still not seeing much of a change in her sexual desire. My desire goes through the roof when my husband meets this particular need of mine, but, then again, I have a pretty high drive.
> 
> Still, one of the reasons that my h was so willing to meet this need of mine was that I'd worked so hard over the past year on brining back my desire for him--which is a huge need of his.
> 
> I guess you can always hope that your wife will come to reciprocate and work on meeting needs that she knows are important to you. In the meantime, the increased harmony, affection and, hopefully, respect that your wife shows you might make your efforts at least worth something to you.


----------



## GettingIt_2

MEM11363 said:


> Getting,
> I think you are describing a universally appealing behavior.
> 
> And it's obvious that you get your part in it. And that you have empathy, which is something B2 appears to lack.
> 
> Sometimes M2 and I will banter with each other like so:
> 
> Are we having an 'I feel' talk or is this more of a 'you suck' type discussion?
> 
> In all honesty - both belong in a healthy marriage. But the 'you suck' discussions that happen while calm, tend to be constructive and tactful. Those that occur while emotionally flooded tend to be toxic.
> 
> As far as Boston and B2 are concerned, I believe they are now at parity.
> 
> If Boston sticks to the plan, B2 is about to traverse a crash course in empathy. Such a thing is every bit as useful as it is painful.
> 
> The empathy will come from being in a situation where her body is craving something with ever greater intensity that Boston could easily give her, but chooses not to.


I have empathy now, MEM. I had to take a crash course in it, too. My former level of marital empathy might have been fine for some spouses, but it wasn't for mine. I worked on it, am working on it, because it matters in my marriage.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Getting,
> I think you are describing a universally appealing behavior.
> 
> And it's obvious that you get your part in it. And that you have empathy, which is something B2 appears to lack.
> 
> Sometimes M2 and I will banter with each other like so:
> 
> Are we having an 'I feel' talk or is this more of a 'you suck' type discussion?
> 
> In all honesty - both belong in a healthy marriage. But the 'you suck' discussions that happen while calm, tend to be constructive and tactful. Those that occur while emotionally flooded tend to be toxic.
> 
> As far as Boston and B2 are concerned, I believe they are now at parity.
> 
> If Boston sticks to the plan, B2 is about to traverse a crash course in empathy. Such a thing is every bit as useful as it is painful.
> 
> The empathy will come from being in a situation where her body is craving something with ever greater intensity that Boston could easily give her, but chooses not to.


what is that?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> I would think this would be a satisfying feeling as a man and husband. To finally understand how to "steady the ship".
> 
> My perception of Mem's posts is that he interprets everything your wife does in the worst possible negative light. Not sure WHY he does that? Projection not making sense since he seems to like his own W.
> 
> Seriously need to consider switching your sexual orientation if you want MO's daily without navigating feminine emotion. I still think the porn use is a problem. That isn't real. REAL women have feelings which can be hurt.


this could be true. to be very honest with all of you, I take MEM's advice and Blonde's advice as opinions deeply rooted from very specific and different experiences. Neither are absolute silver bullets and neither are absolutely wasted viewpoints.

the truth and course of action lies somewhere in between. 

..and what happened to T2? banned? what happened to the plan? "the plan is working. my wife chose me" hehe..


----------



## Tasorundo

I don't know when/why he was banned, but I checked his blog and the plan has not been updated with success stories......


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Her desire for B4 is probably the closest thing in her world to your desire for a regular sex life. 

You have just become, not only visible to B2, but your are now front and center in her viewport. Use this opportunity carefully.

This is the best chance you may ever have to actually understand your wife and to get your wife to understand you. 

The worst thing you can do is leverage your position to pressure her to change her external behavior. It won't last. 

The best thing you can do is try to understand why a lot of her anger/frustration gets directed at you. Because I don't think it's random. I believe that in many cases she is giving you cues via body language, tone of voice and subtext. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you often don't know why she's doing what she's doing. 

And you don't have to know in the moment, because that's very hard. But after the fact, you should either be able to figure it out on your own by replaying the situation, or just ask her why. 

There's an art to this. Calm, genuinely interested in better understanding her and the situation. Definitely not trying to score points or win. 

How often do you offer to take B3 for a nature walk (to give B2 some quiet time) or something local that is fun for B3, where B2's participation is welcome but totally optional? 

When M2 is generally tense - I often give her that type of option. Sometimes she comes and often not. And that's ok. 

Boston, based on your posts, your single biggest flaw is that you don't really pay attention to a lot of cues from your wife. 

Example: You continued to initiate sex like clockwork every 3 days in the face of a 90 percent rejection rate and an endless stream of clearly deceptive excuses she began using to keep you at bay. Most of the guys I know in healthy marriages, would have stopped after the third or fourth rejection and insisted on some honest communication. And they wouldn't have resumed initiating until they felt like they understood what was happening. That doesn't guarantee a happy ending. But it's better than trying to share a life with someone you really don't understand. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> what is that?


----------



## jorgegene

Good Holy Grief!!!!

I've been reading this thread and all the intensive analysis and wondering why the HeIl life/relationships have to be so complicated.
God help us all.................

...................and yet, then I thought, 'you know what?' I've been there too. In relationships where you just can't win.

My ex put me through Heil. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
The best and worst times of my life.


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
The way this looks to me is that:

To you, Boston appears to represent what you dislike/resent/hate about men. 

To me, his wife represents the dark side of M2/women. 

They are opposite sides of the same coin. The coin itself is objectification. And it has sex on one side and resources on the other. 




Blonde said:


> I would think this would be a satisfying feeling as a man and husband. To finally understand how to "steady the ship".
> 
> My perception of Mem's posts is that he interprets everything your wife does in the worst possible negative light. Not sure WHY he does that? Projection not making sense since he seems to like his own W.
> 
> Seriously need to consider switching your sexual orientation if you want MO's daily without navigating feminine emotion. I still think the porn use is a problem. That isn't real. REAL women have feelings which can be hurt.


----------



## Catherine602

Trickster said:


> I know all about abuse Catherine... I remember my head being bashed against the wall on many occasions, I will never ever forget my mom always telling me I would never amount to anything. No matter what I did ever changer her attitude.. I understand Blonde way more than she realizes...
> 
> We are a prisoner in our own mind....Blonde can choose to leave, just like any of us.... She still hopes for that happily ever after that will never come... We are all a victim to that false hope.
> 
> Even though John wanted off the list, he is still hopefull that his narriafpge will improve....


Very insightful Trick. Keeping up with your other thread.


----------



## Catherine602

MEM11363 said:


> Catherine,
> Maybe - just maybe - I could buy the idea that picking him was luck. It's a stretch but - I'll do it if you ask me to.
> 
> But - what you have done IN your marriage, that ain't luck. That is strength, courage, determination and commitment. Your H gets hit on a lot. But he ONLY wants you. There is a reason for that. You want to see the reason, go look in the mirror.
> 
> I know how this works. I don't get hit on as much as him, but when I do, I react the same way. There's only one person I want.


MEM many of your posts leave me speechless and some even bring tears to my eyes. I could hardly respond to this post because it is so warming and comforting to me that I could not find the words to express my feelings. 

I don't know how to thank you except to let you know that your posts to me and others have profoundly effected my outlook on life. 

You suddenly went away for a while, I hope you won't disappear again. Thank you


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine,
I am smiling right now because I remember the very first time I responded to one of your posts. LOL - we had no context and in hindsight you might have thought I was hitting on you. 

But the truth is, the first post of yours that I read jumped out at me because it was written by this very smart, insightful, kind person and I thought - THAT is the kind of person who makes this a very special environment. And I hoped you would like it here and stay. 

Somehow, despite your difficult background you are gender neutral. It's a gift. 

There is a saying which is true, but only for very strong people: That which doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. That saying applies to you. 

I hope that you are in a good place. As for me, I am getting there. 

Tonight M2 is away on a trip with friends, but she called me to tell me that she craves me. I feel exactly the same.....


UOTE=Catherine602;8426617]MEM many of your posts leave me speechless and some even bring tears to my eyes. I could hardly respond to this post because it is so warming and comforting to me that I could not find the words to express my feelings. 

I don't know how to thank you except to let you know that your posts to me and others have profoundly effected my outlook on life. 

You suddenly went away for a while, I hope you won't disappear again. Thank you[/QUOTE]


----------



## Trickster

Catherine602 said:


> Very insightful Trick. Keeping up with your other thread.


I had some of the threads closed, others I want them to disappear...


Sometimes I wish I can turn back the clock and have a do over...

At least have a rewind button...

When my mom died from chirrosis, I didn't shed a tear...all these years later, still haven't... Didn't even cry when my Dad passed either.

Why do we have a past that keeps haunting us?Somewhere, buried so deep in our subconscious, is this remote control....it occasionally rears its ugliness.

Catherine, I know your Dad wished he had that rewind button...I want to believe that he did...

Catherine... I think it was you that responded to one of my posts from a year and a half ago... 

I took my daughter with me to a Christmas party and my wife didn't want to go. . She was all dressed up looking so adorable.. You said something about not letting her replace my wife...I think that was you.... I can't find it now... I just remembered that reading your thread...


----------



## Catherine602

Trickster said:


> I had some of the threads closed, others I want them to disappear...
> 
> 
> Sometimes I wish I can turn back the clock and have a do over...
> 
> At least have a rewind button...
> 
> When my mom died from chirrosis, I didn't shed a tear...all these years later, still haven't... Didn't even cry when my Dad passed either.
> 
> Why do we have a past that keeps haunting us?Somewhere, buried so deep in our subconscious, is this remote control....it occasionally rears its ugliness.
> 
> Catherine, I know your Dad wished he had that rewind button...I want to believe that he did...
> 
> Catherine... I think it was you that responded to one of my posts from a year and a half ago...
> 
> I took my daughter with me to a Christmas party and my wife didn't want to go. . She was all dressed up looking so adorable.. You said something about not letting her replace my wife...I think that was you.... I can't find it now... I just remembered that reading your thread...


No Trick That was absolutely not me. I would never say any such thing. It is an affront to you and a terrible thing to even put in your head. 

You are a wonderful father. Don't put importance on everything people say. They don't know anymore than you. 

You sound so confused and troubled Trick. Things get worse before they get better. its like reorganizing a closet. 

No I would never say you daughter was a replacement for your wife. I never saw any evidence from anything you wrote that would indicate that. 

l bet the outing to the party will be something that she members all her life. It was a special night spent with her dad. I remember times when my parents made me feel special. The memories are islands of hope and happiness. 

You are sorting through things now so it seems to be worse. You could not have gotten to this point without the experiences of the last few years. 

Still drinking too much (I have to nag you)


----------



## Trickster

Catherine602 said:


> No Trick That was absolutely not me. I would never say any such thing. It is an affront to you and a terrible thing to even put in your head.
> 
> You are a wonderful father. Don't put importance on everything people say. They don't know anymore than you.
> 
> You sound so confused and troubled Trick. Things get worse before they get better. its like reorganizing a closet.
> 
> No I would never say you daughter was a replacement for your wife. I never saw any evidence from anything you wrote that would indicate that.
> 
> l bet the outing to the party will be something that she members all her life. It was a special night spent with her dad. I remember times when my parents made me feel special. The memories are islands of hope and happiness.
> 
> You are sorting through things now so it seems to be worse. You could not have gotten to this point without the experiences of the last few years.
> 
> Still drinking too much (I have to nag you)


Still drinking too much??? Was that a question? I don't see that as nagging... I think you may actually care..

Whoever made the comment didn't say it in a bad way... It didn't seem like it...Their response was that her Dad dressed her up and went out to holiday parties and all. My post about my daughter initiated her response.


I am not confused anymore...I have just stopped trying... I feel good today and have been for a while now.. Happiness is a choice...Tomorrows another day...


----------



## Blonde

Trickster said:


> I had some of the threads closed, others I want them to disappear...


You can delete the first post and the thread will be deleted.


----------



## BostonBruins32

So.. Ever in the dark about 100% of thd reason she needs space 6 months ago.. I continue to snoop if her ipad is left open.

Yep in an *******. 

Anyhow there was this guy tgat she was not friends with until say : years ago. Went to neighboring high school. Similar friends etc. She called him a stage 5 clinger because he liked all her facebook stuff and my guess was had a crush on her. Fast forward to October last year, he comes to remove trees at our house, his profession. Foes it for virtually nothing. He only comes by when I'm sat work, and I question this and she gets defensive. One of the times he comes over, her parents are there entertaining b3. Guy is not attractive but in certain he has a crush. I asked her point blank if any thing physical went on . I asked her if she confided in him. Both "no". 

This was right at the time she needed space. My honest assessment is she confided in him. He's very unattractive and heavy. But he sounds like he'd do anything to get her to like him. I checked her facebook, no messages to him during that tine frame, definately deleted. I sad messages about once a month over past 3 months, not deleted. Nothing flirty or sexually, just brief chit chat, 5 lines or so. Then nothing from a month etc. She message him today because he posted photo of himself looking sick. 

"You look terrible lol, you ok?"
"Just sick. Tired too from crossfit"
"Aw don't worry, almost 5 "
"Yeah"

Thoughts tam? Something to see or nothing to see here?

Phone records clean. Tells me they communicated on facebook, so it's suspicious messages not there during October time. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_more edit : she has tons of guy friends on facebook, and since I've known her she seems to like attention from guys. She also craves attention on facebook. She also has all hidden friends.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I guess more to note. She tags me and includes photos of me on her facebook. So like if we spend the day at a cookout and she takes a photo of us, she will post it. Her friends are privatized so one can only see mutual friends. She said this was for security reasons, same as why she can't be searched for on there by full name
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Sounds like you just don't trust her, BB.

We don't really know what is/was going on with her, you know? We don't know her. It would be best for you to ask her. 

But for her to tell you the truth, she has to feel safe with you. I think just talking to her transparently would be the best way for her to feel safe with you. And acting transparent with her would be, too.

BB, when men come here and talk about their problems with their wives, I often get the feeling they are not very confident. A confident man takes charge of his problem. He confronts. He makes her feel safe with him. It's not an act; he deeply cares about her. And he doesn't make it all about _him._

Are you really talking deeply to her? Or maybe you have gotten advice not to? 

I guess, as a woman, I disagree with that. I like my guy to talk to me, to probe when I am quiet or overwhelmed, or just having a hard time expressing myself. I like him to take me in his arms and hold me, maybe let me be quiet, but quiet _with _him. 

I am not sure how your wife likes to be made to feel safe, but I would encourage you to think about it. I don't think doing the private investigating is really leading to an atmosphere of trust, you know?


----------



## john117

That's awesome assuming you're dealing with NormalPeople (tm)

Any such questions to NonNormalPeople (tm) will likely result in screams, insults, non answers, empty promises, or retreating into their shell even deeper.


----------



## jld

Okay, john. But couldn't he at least try it?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Jld

I told her a few seperate times I was uncomfortable with the dynamics of how this relationship started and where it is today. I offered to help with yard work each time and for some wild reason ge was never available to work on the trees when I was available to be home. I asked her why she would suddenly allow a "clinger" (her words ) to now be alone with her without me. I very clearly said I was uncomfortable and did not like the situation. The problem is that I had no hard evidence that supported my gut feeling that this was wrong. She poo pooed it when I brought up how I felt. "He's justvacfrirnd and he cuts trees for a living do share the big deal" that was her defense . Few weeks later she needs space. Hmmm.

See I had nothing and have nothing concrete. Her talking to him ia not cheating. But I know something was not right. I just know it. I have not confronted her in a while now because as of now she is nor tightly securing her ipad. Her ipad can give me a ton of insight. If I show feelings of distrust, I worry she will tighten everything up again. Then I'll have no insight. Snooping. Is bad , I get it. But there is too much here for me to lose by sharing distrust, again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> That's awesome assuming you're dealing with NormalPeople (tm)
> 
> Any such questions to NonNormalPeople (tm) will likely result in screams, insults, non answers, empty promises, or retreating into their shell even deeper.


I realize there is sarcasm here, but it's partially true. She got hyper defensive when I brought it up. Angry almost. I gave her a reverse example ( say anew female friend of mine that liked me only comes over to paint room when wife is not there) and she said she understood. But that was it. But her still talking to him now is proof that she still wants his attention or still wants him to like her. And either way it feels like it shows zero empathy for how I feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

BB, I think your head is running away from you. I also think you're likely pushing your wife further away. If I found out my husband did you you've done, I'd withdraw even further. She already doesn't seem to trust you emotionally, and this isn't going to help you earn any more trust from her. 

Who do you think she's going to run to when she finds out about what she probably views as a gross violation of her privacy? Who do you think she's going to run to about her "clinger" husband? 

You're smothering her, and you're driving yourself crazy with "what ifs." If you don't trust her, you should tell her straight up. It might be time for the two of you to honestly address whether either of you is capable of giving the other what they need before this implodes in a very nasty way.


----------



## PieceOfSky

jld said:


> Sounds like you just don't trust her, BB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We don't really know what is/was going on with her, you know? We don't know her. It would be best for you to ask her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But for her to tell you the truth, she has to feel safe with you. I think just talking to her transparently would be the best way for her to feel safe with you. And acting transparent with her would be, too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BB, when men come here and talk about their problems with their wives, I often get the feeling they are not very confident. A confident man takes charge of his problem. He confronts. He makes her feel safe with him. It's not an act; he deeply cares about her. And he doesn't make it all about _him._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you really talking deeply to her? Or maybe you have gotten advice not to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess, as a woman, I disagree with that. I like my guy to talk to me, to probe when I am quiet or overwhelmed, or just having a hard time expressing myself. I like him to take me in his arms and hold me, maybe let me be quiet, but quiet _with _him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure how your wife likes to be made to feel safe, but I would encourage you to think about it. I don't think doing the private investigating is really leading to an atmosphere of trust, you know?







jld,



You seem like a nice person trying to help. And, sometimes I agree with your advice.



But, I confess it often seems to me you are too eager to presume _it is all about him, his weakness, his mistake, his flaw, his lack of listening _. 



You also seem to phrase things like this:



A __________ man would do _________.



Where the first blank is something most would want to do, and the second is, at least by your implication and presumption, something the OP is not doing. I find that to be pedantic, shaming, and insulting.



Maybe it's just me.


----------



## john117

Most people seem to be giving an easier time to the non TAM posting member i.e. Mrs. B In this case... And we get much more of the view point of the person who posts i.e. BB...

Plus the theory is that one can't change others but only themselves etc etc. So it's not a surprise this is more one sided.

Also a lot of posters have no experience dealing with NonNormalPeople (tm)... I would not be insulted if I got suggestions strictly targeted to dealing with NormalPeople (tm).... I would not wish NonNormalPeople (tm) on anyone...


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Jld
> 
> I told her a few seperate times I was uncomfortable with the dynamics of how this relationship started and where it is today. I offered to help with yard work each time and for some wild reason ge was never available to work on the trees when I was available to be home. I asked her why she would suddenly allow a "clinger" (her words ) to now be alone with her without me. I very clearly said I was uncomfortable and did not like the situation. The problem is that I had no hard evidence that supported my gut feeling that this was wrong. She poo pooed it when I brought up how I felt. "He's justvacfrirnd and he cuts trees for a living do share the big deal" that was her defense . Few weeks later she needs space. Hmmm.
> 
> See I had nothing and have nothing concrete. Her talking to him ia not cheating. But I know something was not right. I just know it. I have not confronted her in a while now because as of now she is nor tightly securing her ipad. Her ipad can give me a ton of insight. If I show feelings of distrust, I worry she will tighten everything up again. Then I'll have no insight. Snooping. Is bad , I get it. But there is too much here for me to lose by sharing distrust, again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear what you are saying, BB. I am sorry your wife is not being transparent with you. It does sound like she is hiding something, even if it is just her feeling about the whole thing.

BB, I guess I am just putting myself in your wife's place and trying to imagine how I would feel. For some reason, she doesn't feel safe being transparent with you. I am trying to help you make yourself a safe person for her. It is not to say you are not a good person already, or anything like that. But there is some reason your wife does not feel comfortable letting down her guard with you and sharing her heart.

You can set limits, like refusing to pay the guy, or telling her if she continues to be friends with him it is a dealbreaker for you, but that is not going to earn trust. Making her feel safe is what earns trust.

I guess I am just searching through my own mind what earns my trust. For me, it is transparency from a man. When he can be open and honest with me, and I sense that he is humble enough and confident enough in himself, I will be open and honest with him. I am not going to risk being open and honest to my very core with someone who seems shaky in himself. 

If I sense someone is trying to control me, that does not speak confidence to me. And so I am on guard with him.

I am not saying these things to hurt you. I am trying to help. 

I think your wife sounds like a nice enough lady, BB. I don't know why she won't go to counseling. But I think that could be a trust issue, too. 

For me, these things just come down to figuring out how to earn her trust. Seeing her compassionately could help that. 

And working on yourself is criticial. Like john said, you are the only person we can work with. We are trying, each of us, to give you tools to work with.

Please consider what the ladies are saying, all of us. I thought GettingIt gave you excellent input today. Please consider it.


----------



## pidge70

john117 said:


> Most people seem to be giving an easier time to the non TAM posting member i.e. Mrs. B In this case... And we get much more of the view point of the person who posts i.e. BB...
> 
> Plus the theory is that one can't change others but only themselves etc etc. So it's not a surprise this is more one sided.
> 
> Also a lot of posters have no experience dealing with NonNormalPeople (tm)... I would not be insulted if I got suggestions strictly targeted to dealing with NormalPeople (tm).... I would not wish NonNormalPeople (tm) on anyone...



Pray tell, what exactly do you consider "NonNormal"?


----------



## pidge70

PieceOfSky said:


> jld,
> 
> 
> 
> You seem like a nice person trying to help. And, sometimes I agree with your advice.
> 
> 
> 
> But, I confess it often seems to me you are too eager to presume _it is all about him, his weakness, his mistake, his flaw, his lack of listening _.
> 
> 
> 
> You also seem to phrase things like this:
> 
> 
> 
> A __________ man would do _________.
> 
> 
> 
> Where the first blank is something most would want to do, and the second is, at least by your implication and presumption, something the OP is not doing. I find that to be pedantic, shaming, and insulting.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's just me.


:iagree: It's not just you.


----------



## jld

PieceOfSky said:


> jld,
> 
> You seem like a nice person trying to help. And, sometimes I agree with your advice.
> 
> But, I confess it often seems to me you are too eager to presume _it is all about him, his weakness, his mistake, his flaw, his lack of listening _.
> 
> You also seem to phrase things like this:
> 
> A __________ man would do _________.
> 
> Where the first blank is something most would want to do, and the second is, at least by your implication and presumption, something the OP is not doing. I find that to be pedantic, shaming, and insulting.
> 
> Maybe it's just me.


Piece, BB is the only one we have to work with. I would love to sit down with his wife and really hear her heart on all of this. I would love to offer compassion and understanding, and a path to their marital harmony. I think they both seem like really nice people.

Do you notice how BB does not respond defensively to my posts? He doesn't seem to have any need to put me down, or discount what I am saying. If anything, he tries to explain to me why he does what he does. That helps me to further try to help him.

We are all just trying to help here, Piece, in whatever way we know how.

I have known so many women over the years, Piece, who have really carried their marriages. They are working, raising kids, taking care of a house, and trying to be nice to their husbands. The husbands work, too, and help somewhat with the kids and the house, but seem to have plenty of time for their hobbies. (I am not saying BB is like this at all, just giving examples of marriages I have known.) 

These women would love a helping hand, Piece, at working on the marriage. The men feel like as long as they are getting what they want, what is there to complain about? And would she just shut up already? And the women feel trapped. And in many ways, they are.

Just a little understanding, a little empathy, a little willingness from the man to do more than 50/50 would be so appreciated. And he really is the key, at least in the marriages I have known.

On TAM, apparently, we have the reverse, or so we are told. But when I see how defensively some men respond to me, I wonder.

Do you think my feelings are not hurt by the posts people write to me, Piece? Do you not think I feel misunderstood? But there is no point to taking it personally. I doubt people would see me this way if they knew me IRL. But somehow I can't get my meaning across online. 

Or people are reacting to something in themselves, but choose to blame me.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

jld said:


> I hear what you are saying, BB. I am sorry your wife is not being transparent with you. It does sound like she is hiding something, even if it is just her feeling about the whole thing.
> 
> ****
> 
> I think your wife sounds like a nice enough lady, BB. I don't know why she won't go to counseling. But I think that could be a trust issue, too.


I think it is important to remind folks from time to time that BB's wife has experienced CSA. I am sure that has an effect on her perceptions and how she trusts. Not sure this changes jld's advice, but I think it is important to remember, as BB2's reactions may be different because of this experience.


----------



## pidge70

> Or people are reacting to something in themselves, but choose to blame me.


I haven't had much interaction with you but, I have read plenty of your posts. How could I not, they are everywhere. The bit I quoted seems to be your Modus operandi. You turn things around to where posters on here either have a problem, are afraid of you, etc. I personally feel it shows a lack of insight.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

pidge70 said:


> I haven't had much interaction with you but, I have read plenty of your posts. How could I not, they are everywhere. The bit I quoted seems to be your Modus operandi. You turn things around to where posters on here either have a problem, are afraid of you, etc. I personally feel it shows a lack of insight.



Ya it could never be her fault. Forget that her last post openly admits that she's projecting and openly admits she thinks it's always the mans fault. I think she does more harm than good. And I think she likes it that way.


----------



## jld

pidge70 said:


> I haven't had much interaction with you but, I have read plenty of your posts. How could I not, they are everywhere. The bit I quoted seems to be your Modus operandi. You turn things around to where posters on here either have a problem, are afraid of you, etc. I personally feel it shows a lack of insight.


Feel free to explain.

One thing that my therapist has drilled into my head is that however people react to someone has more to do with them than with that person. If we are having a negative emotional response to someone, and not simply disagreeing with them, we may want to ask ourselves why.


----------



## john117

pidge70 said:


> Pray tell, what exactly do you consider "NonNormal"?



Any kind of untreated personality disorder, stress, depression, physical ailment, etc. Or any artificial creation like excessive time at work...


----------



## pidge70

john117 said:


> Any kind of untreated personality disorder, stress, depression, physical ailment, etc. Or any artificial creation like excessive time at work...


Well then, I guess I am a NonNormal.


----------



## pidge70

jld said:


> Feel free to explain.
> 
> One thing that my therapist has drilled into my head is that however people react to someone has more to do with them than with that person. If we are having a negative emotional response to someone, and not simply disagreeing with them, we may want to ask ourselves why.


Did your therapist ever suggest that maybe, just maybe, how you interact with people could be the problem?


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> I think one of the most underrated things she loves is when I remain calm or stoic amongst stressful times.
> 
> If she's breaking down and I do not break down, she snaps back much quicker and draws closer to me (affection etc).
> 
> Granted she doesnt peel off her pants and jump on me, but you get my point.


*I* get the point. And the confusion. Perhaps, _maybe_, it's a step toward her recognizing or remembering your good traits as a husband and father, and thus the affection will soon turn into passion, again.

Or, maybe, it highlights to her, in some way, all those things that you do that fit within her picture of what life should be, and she's making sure she does just enough (uncomfortable or unnatural though it may be) to not lose you and all that she has. 

Calm when things are stressful seems to match as an alpha trait, but in our world, you aren't rescuing her from an invading hoarde. You're turning off the water main when a pipe breaks, so the house doesn't get flooded before a plumber can arrive (for instance). Is that a virile man protecting what is his, or is that a technocrat using his geeky knowledge of the system to buy time for a real man to come and fix the problem? 

I received praise recently for guiding one child through an issue with friends seemingly competing for loyalty and helped the whole family through the death of our dog -- he went downhill wen we were on vacation, so I had to work on if we/should we keep him alive until we were back to say goodbye, is he in pain, do loved ones deserve a chance to say goodbye, etc. It wasn't effusive praise, but praise is rare enough for me that I'll take anything. It came with a bit more affection -- but not with sex. Now, we're back to navigating car pools, laundry and her church group. 

She knows I would like a more active sex life. Yet the "reward" for remaining calm and beating the corner blitz is, well, it's something equivalent to a handshake. Maybe it can be the beginning of more, but I wonder if I'm just fooling myself. 

It sounds as though you may have similar questions.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Feel free to explain.
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that my therapist has drilled into my head is that however people react to someone has more to do with them than with that person. If we are having a negative emotional response to someone, and not simply disagreeing with them, we may want to ask ourselves why.



That's my wife to a T... Disagreement = War, Agreement = Cold Shoulder. That's par for the course


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> That's my wife to a T... Disagreement = War, Agreement = Cold Shoulder. That's par for the course


Oh, john. I am sure that is hard.


----------



## jld

pidge70 said:


> Did your therapist ever suggest that maybe, just maybe, how you interact with people could be the problem?


No, she never has. She just says that however people react to me has more to do with them than with me.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Oh, john. I am sure that is hard.



Not if your cold shoulder is bigger than her cold shoulder


----------



## WorkingOnMe

jld said:


> No, she never has. She just says that however people react to me has more to do with them than with me.



Of course. It certainly couldn't have anything to do with you. I must be everyone else's fault.


----------



## jld

WorkingOnMe said:


> Of course. It certainly couldn't have anything to do with you. I must be everyone else's fault.


Would you like to explain?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

jld said:


> Would you like to explain?



Just read your own posts. It's all right there. Take some responsibility for your part in what you stir up.


----------



## GettingIt_2

john117 said:


> Any kind of untreated personality disorder, stress, depression, physical ailment, etc. Or any artificial creation like excessive time at work...


In other words, people who have a pulse? 

Sorry, john, I couldn't resist. I think _everyone_ here is trying to negotiate the realities of life.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

jld said:


> No, she never has. She just says that however people react to me has more to do with them than with me.


Yet you don't apply that to BB, do you? He is suppose to change his methods to get a better reaction. Certainly you can see that the above seems to contradict your advice to BB below:



> And working on yourself is criticial. Like john said, you are the only person we can work with. We are trying, each of us, to give you tools to work with.


So one could presume that the advise you received and appear to follow (which seems to say you dont change, it is up to others) is not consistent with the advice you gave BB (that he needs to change his approach, not her).


----------



## Duguesclin

BostonBruins32 said:


> I guess more to note. She tags me and includes photos of me on her facebook. So like if we spend the day at a cookout and she takes a photo of us, she will post it. Her friends are privatized so one can only see mutual friends. She said this was for security reasons, same as why she can't be searched for on there by full name
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BB, I think you are reading way too much on this issue. Spying on her like this is not helpful.

Just talk to her and do not think that asking a question one time is enough. Ask the same question in different ways and get her engaged in the conversation. I know it is hard but it is far more useful than spying on her.

I do not think she needs facts to be shown to her. You need to touch her on the emotional level. It is hard but it works.

She may be asking that guy to work on the tree because it is going to be done correctly. You may not like to hear it, but that might be the reason. Actually, she may be afraid to tell you that. I am not saying this is the root cause but the fact she seems hiding is probably not because she is having an affair. It might be as trivial as this.


----------



## Duguesclin

Tall Average Guy said:


> Yet you don't apply that to BB, do you? He is suppose to change his methods to get a better reaction. Certainly you can see that the above seems to contradict your advice to BB below:
> 
> 
> 
> So one could presume that the advise you received and appear to follow (which seems to say you dont change, it is up to others) is not consistent with the advice you gave BB (that he needs to change his approach, not her).


TAG, the issue is not who should change but who should make the first step. 

There is nothing wrong for a man to make the first move if he really cares about his wife. JLD has never said that the wife should not change.


----------



## john117

GettingIt said:


> In other words, people who have a pulse?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, john, I couldn't resist. I think _everyone_ here is trying to negotiate the realities of life.



Those friends of mine that are in happy marriages are the same ones that are boring as heck. A couple years ago we took a cruise with one such couple and their girl (best friend with my younger girl since age 2). Nice people and all, but dude, there's more to life than cruising, working, and drinking. It's all about intellectual stimulation too. 

I could have taken the easy way out and gone back to my village to marry Duck. Only the pine trees know how, ehem, close we got to know each other as teenagers but dude, there's more to life than that. 

As much as I hate dealing with serious problems in life, it's what keeps me alive. It's too easy to attach diagnoses to people, much harder to deal with them.


----------



## Anon Pink

Tall Average Guy said:


> Yet you don't apply that to BB, do you? He is suppose to change his methods to get a better reaction. Certainly you can see that the above seems to contradict your advice to BB below:
> 
> 
> 
> So one could presume that the advise you received and appear to follow (which seems to say you dont change, it is up to others) is not consistent with the advice you gave BB (that he needs to change his approach, not her).


If JLD was asking here how to get along with her husband better your points would be valid. Since she is not, your points are not.


----------



## GettingIt_2

john117 said:


> *Those friends of mine that are in happy marriages are the same ones that are boring as heck.*


I doubt they care what you think of their lives and marriages. They are _happy! _ 



john117 said:


> A couple years ago we took a cruise with one such couple and their girl (best friend with my younger girl since age 2). Nice people and all, *but dude, there's more to life than cruising, working, and drinking. It's all about intellectual stimulation too.*


Says who? 



john117 said:


> I could have taken the easy way out and gone back to my village to marry Duck. Only the pine trees know how, ehem, close we got to know each other as teenagers but dude, there's more to life than that.


You are happy with your choice? Good on you. 



john117 said:


> As much as I hate dealing with serious problems in life, it's what keeps me alive. *It's too easy to attach diagnoses to people,* much harder to deal with them.


Diagnoses like "non normal?" (Sorry, I don't know how to make the little "TM" mark.)


----------



## john117

Nobody's normal except those who are so average that they appear as the faint blue grid lines on graph paper. 

I don't count myself as remotely normal, incidentally. The fun in life is pushing the envelope, not be deep into its bowels. That increases the risk.

My village buddy who married Duck's sister is plenty happy but for them happiness is a lot easier to attain than those of us high aspirations (in all aspects) people. There are times I wish I was more normal but not very often.

Happiness in life is the simple things which is not so great if you're me...


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> Most people seem to be giving an easier time to the non TAM posting member i.e. Mrs. B In this case... .


OMG I beg to differ!

Review the thread.

BB2 is such a selfish golddigger NPD witholding villainess while BB is her poor poor sexually starved victim

Defend BB2 at your own risk. (I gave it up as I am not a glutton for verbal abuse)


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
This is just a guess, but I'll call it a well informed guess:
- In your gut, you WANT to find evidence of wrongdoing. Moderate wrongdoing will help you continue to gain more power in the marriage. 
- Extreme wrongdoing will give you a guilt free exit from the marriage. 

That is PROFOUNDLY fvcked up. 

Instead it goes like this. 
Boston: I've been thinking about this for a bit. I'm not ok with you remaining friends with guys who are hitting on you. So for example, tree guy gets chopped effective immediately. 

B2: You don't get to ....

Boston: Actually I do. The fact that he did the tree removal at way below market price is proof positive to me, that he wants to bed you. Men don't throw money/resources like that at their friends. Only at romantic partners/target partners. 

B2: I'm not going to ....

Boston: Passively letting other men flirt with you is totally unacceptable. It's how folks end up breaking their vows and claiming afterwards: it just happened. 

B2: Some version of: you're insecure, this is your problem not mine.

Boston: This isn't about me. If your need for sexual attention from other men is this strong, we simply aren't compatible. 

B2: Leaping into the victim chair and getting sad/hurt/crying

Boston: Remaining present but detached seeing this as the manipulation tactic it is. Sticking with one final response pattern:

Boston: I've only got one more question for you. What's the connection between Treeman and you needing space 6 months ago? 

-------------
If she's willing to tank the marriage over a clinger, one of two things is true:
- there's something between them or
- there's nothing between the two of you










BostonBruins32 said:


> Jld
> 
> I told her a few seperate times I was uncomfortable with the dynamics of how this relationship started and where it is today. I offered to help with yard work each time and for some wild reason ge was never available to work on the trees when I was available to be home. I asked her why she would suddenly allow a "clinger" (her words ) to now be alone with her without me. I very clearly said I was uncomfortable and did not like the situation. The problem is that I had no hard evidence that supported my gut feeling that this was wrong. She poo pooed it when I brought up how I felt. "He's justvacfrirnd and he cuts trees for a living do share the big deal" that was her defense . Few weeks later she needs space. Hmmm.
> 
> See I had nothing and have nothing concrete. Her talking to him ia not cheating. But I know something was not right. I just know it. I have not confronted her in a while now because as of now she is nor tightly securing her ipad. Her ipad can give me a ton of insight. If I show feelings of distrust, I worry she will tighten everything up again. Then I'll have no insight. Snooping. Is bad , I get it. But there is too much here for me to lose by sharing distrust, again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I think that is aggressive, MEM. I think Boston could be assertive without being aggressive. He can certainly have limits, but I think seeking to build rapport with her first would be a more fruitful approach.


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> This is just a guess, but I'll call it a well informed guess:
> - In your gut, you WANT to find evidence of wrongdoing. Moderate wrongdoing will help you continue to gain more power in the marriage.
> - Extreme wrongdoing will give you a guilt free exit from the marriage.
> 
> That is PROFOUNDLY fvcked up.
> 
> Instead it goes like this.
> Boston: I've been thinking about this for a bit. I'm not ok with you remaining friends with guys who are hitting on you. So for example, tree guy gets chopped effective immediately.
> 
> B2: You don't get to ....
> 
> Boston: Actually I do. The fact that he did the tree removal at way below market price is proof positive to me, that he wants to bed you. Men don't throw money/resources like that at their friends. Only at romantic partners/target partners.
> 
> B2: I'm not going to ....
> 
> Boston: Passively letting other men flirt with you is totally unacceptable. It's how folks end up breaking their vows and claiming afterwards: it just happened.
> 
> B2: Some version of: you're insecure, this is your problem not mine.
> 
> Boston: This isn't about me. If your need for sexual attention from other men is this strong, we simply aren't compatible.
> 
> B2: Leaping into the victim chair and getting sad/hurt/crying
> 
> Boston: Remaining present but detached seeing this as the manipulation tactic it is. Sticking with one final response pattern:
> 
> Boston: I've only got one more question for you. What's the connection between Treeman and you needing space 6 months ago?
> 
> -------------
> If she's willing to tank the marriage over a clinger, one of two things is true:
> - there's something between them or
> - there's nothing between the two of you


My guess is BB is projecting so ^^ is what is good for the goose good for the gander? 
Inquiring minds want to know....


----------



## MEM2020

The first law of marriage is reciprocity: If he wants to receive honesty and candor he needs to provide them. 

You think she doesn't know they have a trust issue? She absolutely does. Boston has already gone a few rounds with her on Treeman. She's done the typical dismissive blowoff. 

You believe the key to their success is in making her more comfortable. And the first step to making a woman feel safe is conveying and enforcing your boundaries in a calm, firm and totally clearcut manner. 

She will never feel safe with a weak partner. And it's a weak partner who snoops without probable cause. It's a strong partner who says: respect me or let's part friends. 

That said, if a woman does NOT love and respect you, she'll react to any type boundary with total fury. How dare you try to limit her sexual options. She won't explicitly say those words, but that's what will be in her head. 

BTW: The I feel statements won't work in this situation. She'll tell Boston she understands, and then continue. When he catches her she'll say she didn't realize it was that big a deal to him. 

This is one of those rare situations where your partner has to know that you are insisting they make a choice. He already tried the 'I'm not comfortable' talk and the result was she scheduled Treeman to come when B wasn't home. 

FYI: Treeman did the work for a huge discount. He would have worked with whatever schedule B2 gave him. 






jld said:


> I think that is aggressive, MEM. I think Boston could be assertive without being aggressive. He can certainly have limits, but I think seeking to build rapport with her first would be a more fruitful approach.


----------



## MEM2020

Fair question.

Boston,
Are you engaged in any opposite sex socializing that B2 would disapprove of if she observed it? 



Blonde said:


> My guess is BB is projecting so ^^ is what is good for the goose good for the gander?
> Inquiring minds want to know....


----------



## Duguesclin

MEM11363 said:


> The first law of marriage is reciprocity: If he wants to receive honesty and candor he needs to provide them.


MEM, I think the first law of marriage is love. Reciprocity is how countries try to deal with each other.

If a marriage is solely based on a wife following her husband's rules and limits and a husband following hus wife's rules and limits, it will fail very quickly.

Marriage is not a written book, it is a book you write together.


----------



## MEM2020

This isn't about rules it's about respect. The marriage is failing due to a lack of respect. 

Love without respect is chaos. 




Duguesclin said:


> MEM, I think the first law of marriage is love. Reciprocity is how countries try to deal with each other.
> 
> If a marriage is solely based on a wife following her husband's rules and limits and a husband following hus wife's rules and limits, it will fail very quickly.
> 
> Marriage is not a written book, it is a book you write together.


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> OMG I beg to differ!
> 
> 
> 
> Review the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> BB2 is such a selfish golddigger NPD witholding villainess while BB is her poor poor sexually starved victim
> 
> 
> 
> Defend BB2 at your own risk. (I gave it up as I am not a glutton for verbal abuse)



Don't focus on what people SAY about BB2 - I don't disagree.

Focus on what BB's suggested options have been. As long as marital warfare is off the table (and D) then she's unscathed. 

J2 collected similar sympathy votes. 

BB like me has his reasons for not wanting D for the time being tho it's still an option. Marital warfare is frowned upon, therapy and reason are not options either, so what then? 

Look at actions not words.


----------



## Duguesclin

MEM11363 said:


> This isn't about rules it's about respect. The marriage is failing due to a lack of respect.
> 
> Love without respect is chaos.


I agree with you that love without respect is chaos. Please keep in mind that respect goes both ways. B2 probably does not feel respected if B is spying on her Facebook page. I certainly would not feel respect to my wife if she did that to me.

I do not think that one is right and the other is wrong. There are obviously issues and someone has to step out of his/her comfort zone and address the concerns. The only way I know is by listening and then talking.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Duguesclin said:


> I agree with you that love without respect is chaos. Please keep in mind that respect goes both ways. B2 probably does not feel respected if B is spying on her Facebook page. I certainly would not feel respect to my wife if she did that to me.
> 
> I do not think that one is right and the other is wrong. *There are obviously issues and someone has to step out of his/her comfort zone and address the concerns.* The only way I know is by listening and then talking.


I think this is key. Progress will inch along, at best, if the party wishing for change is holding out for "fair." 

Besides, once you discover that you DO have the power to change a dynamic by buckling down and doing the lions share of the work *at first*, you discover how much agency you actually DO have. This has been the discovery of my life--I kid you not. 

Funny story: I mentioned to my husband today that I had a therapy appointment at one. "Therapy for your body, or for your head?" he asked. (I see a physical therapist regularly, in addition to my IC therapist.) I answered that I'd decided not to schedule anymore sessions with my "head" therapist, but that she was there when I needed her, and I could always make an appointment when he needed fixing again. 

He laughed, of course. He thinks I see a therapist to work on myself, while I hold out that I see a therapist to work on him.  

Who cares which is right? It works!


----------



## PieceOfSky

jld said:


> But somehow I can't get my meaning across online.



jld,

I am trying to give you insight into why, for me, that might be the case. That is partly why I wrote the following:



PieceOfSky said:


> j
> 
> You also seem to phrase things like this:
> 
> A __________ man would do _________.
> 
> Where the first blank is something most would want to do, and the second is, at least by your implication and presumption, something the OP is not doing. I find that to be pedantic, shaming, and insulting.


If you want to understand why I think that, please PM me or start a thread. If you feel comfortable trusting your therapist that it must be me, or presuming that I am being defensive, etc., and if you are comfortable that there is nothing for you to gain by understanding more about where my response is coming from, then so be it.


BB, 

I am sorry for the thread jack. I felt justified in challenging the "if you were confident, then you'd do X" sort of statement. But, further discussion should occur elsewhere, if at all.


----------



## MEM2020

Getting,
What would you do if your H allowed a woman to aggressively pursue him? To do steeply discounted work on your house for him? What if he scheduled her to do that work when you weren't home even after you asked him not to?

What if he shortly after told you he needed space, and never explained why. 

Theory is great. 

But I want to know what you would actually DO.

----
As for motives - why does anyone do this crap. Because it feels good to have someone chase you. Her motives are normal. 

Her boundaries are weak as are Boston's. 

A boundary is simply a tangible representation of your self respect. I find it astonishing that a pro marriage board is full of people discouraging very obvious boundary enforcement. 

Boston is snooping because she's given him cause. I think it's weak, but I do understand it. 

He ought be direct because a marriage can't survive an un acknowledged lack of trust. 




GettingIt said:


> I think this is key. Progress will inch along, at best, if the party wishing for change is holding out for "fair."
> 
> Besides, once you discover that you DO have the power to change a dynamic by buckling down and doing the lions share of the work *at first*, you discover how much agency you actually DO have. This has been the discovery of my life--I kid you not.
> 
> Funny story: I mentioned to my husband today that I had a therapy appointment at one. "Therapy for your body, or for your head?" he asked. (I see a physical therapist regularly, in addition to my IC therapist.) I answered that I'd decided not to schedule anymore sessions with my "head" therapist, but that she was there when I needed her, and I could always make an appointment when he needed fixing again.
> 
> He laughed, of course. He thinks I see a therapist to work on myself, while I hold out that I see a therapist to work on him.
> 
> Who cares which is right? It works!


----------



## jld

MEM, I think you are right, that the marriage is weak. I am concerned when you advocate force under these conditions. I think it could make the connection between them even weaker.

I think BB needs to try to strengthen the emotional connection first. If that gets stronger, the outward will take care of itself.

I just don't think trying to control someone works, MEM.


----------



## Anon Pink

The difficulty is that Mrs Boston is resistant. She won't talk, she won't go to therapy and she belittles his attempts to get her to open up.

With someone as open and honest as you are JLD, those strong boundaries wouldn't be necessary, in fact they'd be over kill. But with a person oh demonstrates a lack of respect and is closed off to boot, strong boundaries is the best course, IMO.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Fair question.
> 
> Boston,
> Are you engaged in any opposite sex socializing that B2 would disapprove of if she observed it?


No sir. And I walk the tall. Mt phone is unlocked. My computer password is public. I do not hide friends in facebook. 

What I find curious is the pushback in getting here. As in everything is in my head.. None of thus smells funny to you blonde or gettin?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

Men to your other point, you peaked my interest. I wonder if I actually am looking for evidence for the wrong reasons. 

It was odd this past week. I went for a drink to watch bruins with some friends, one of whom has cheated on his wife. My wife found out through the circle of friends we have. My wife despises me being around him, known him for list ally 20 years. She gets so disgusted with him like "is bfriend going to find some women there" etc... I laugh to myself because how can one hate cheating so much but teeter obit with old flames and new clingers on facebook? I can't tell her honest stance on cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> No sir. And I walk the tall. Mt phone is unlocked. My computer password is public. I do not hide friends in facebook.
> 
> What I find curious is the pushback in getting here. As in everything is in my head.. None of thus smells funny to you blonde or gettin?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's the thing, BB--I don't know your wife well enough to say whether or not she is up to something. However, throughout my marriage when my husband and I had poor communication and no emotional trust, I was far more protective of my privacy, and far more resistant to signs of his attempts to control me. My need for privacy has inched slowly but surely back as we've repaired our intimacy. 

Fact of the matter is, though, some people will always set the privacy boundary a little farther forward than others. Attempts to force it back instead of earning your way in will meet with disaster.


----------



## PieceOfSky

BB,



I have not been following your story close enough to have an opinion on the Facebook/contractor guy.



Please understand there is a thing called "affairing down". In retrospect, I take a little comfort that my wife's choice of EA partner fit that phenomenon. At the time, though, his "inferiority" to me caused me to completely miss what was going on.



The strikes against him: arrest/jail-time for abusing his wife; alcohol problem out of control at that time; his mother confirmed to my wife he got physically abusive with his parents when he was drunk, or at least they felt threatened; there is more.



His advantages: he is not me; he does not reside in my wife's real world.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Fair points. 

Too bad her privacy features on phone and ipad mean more than her marriage. I asked her in October, do you private message your ex?( I knew she did I saw it) she said no. 2 months later I ask again. She says no. I say are you sure. She said well just a few times. I the. Told her that it geeks very difficult to trust her as everything I ask I get a different answer. She said sorry.

My point is that my gut instincts aren't out of left field.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

PieceOfSky said:


> BB,
> 
> 
> 
> I have not been following your story close enough to have an opinion on the Facebook/contractor guy.
> 
> 
> 
> Please understand there is a thing called "affairing down". In retrospect, I take a little comfort that my wife's choice of EA partner fit that phenomenon. At the time, though, his "inferiority" to me caused me to completely miss what was going on.
> 
> 
> 
> The strikes against him: arrest/jail-time for abusing his wife; alcohol problem out of control at that time; his mother confirmed to my wife he got physically abusive with his parents when he was drunk, or at least they felt threatened; there is more.
> 
> 
> 
> His advantages: he is not me; he does not reside in my wife's real world.



I've wondered this. Could she really be physical with him? Could she be emotional with him? He's a downgrade across all avenues other than he's not me and I know he'll say anything she wants to hear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

BB, do you really have any option _other than _earning her trust?

She seems kind of fragile to me. Are you thinking that if you enforce strong boundaries, as MEM and AP are suggesting, she will follow them?


----------



## Anon Pink

GettingIt said:


> Here's the thing, BB--I don't know your wife well enough to say whether or not she is up to something. However, throughout my marriage when my husband and I had poor communication and no emotional trust, I was far more protective of my privacy, and far more resistant to signs of his attempts to control me. My need for privacy has inched slowly but surely back as we've repaired our intimacy.
> 
> Fact of the matter is, though, some people will always set the privacy boundary a little farther forward than others. Attempts to force it back instead of earning your way in will meet with disaster.


That is exceptionally insightful GI! I've felt that too but never recognized it as such.

I had no idea you could hide friend on FB? How do you do that?

I have proudly shown my husband every indecent proposal I've ever had via Facebook. Keeps him on his toes...


----------



## john117

jld said:


> BB, do you really have any option _other than _earning her trust?
> 
> 
> 
> She seems kind of fragile to me. Are you thinking that if you enforce strong boundaries, as MEM and AP are suggesting, she will follow them?



Unless the boundaries consequences are very serious the boundaries are generally not very valuable. 

If you don't care about goodies, sex + goodies is as appealing Sussex - goodies, ergo, not appealing.

Goodies is shortcut for perceived benefit if observing the boundary, and no goodies is shortcut for crossing the boundary and getting no benefits. Benefits is very general here not specifically material.


----------



## GettingIt_2

MEM11363 said:


> Getting,
> What would you do if your H allowed a woman to aggressively pursue him? To do steeply discounted work on your house for him? What if he scheduled her to do that work when you weren't home even after you asked him not to?
> 
> What if he shortly after told you he needed space, and never explained why.
> 
> Theory is great.
> 
> But I want to know what you would actually DO.


Well who is defining the "aggressive pursuing?" What BB has described from the tree guy? --that same behavior from a woman I wouldn't blink an eye at. In fact, my husband has more than once been openly propositioned by women he works with--and they knew he was married. He could have had an affair many times over in our marriage--many men in his shoes would have. But not even once did it ever occur to me to snoop and try to find out. It's just not how I am. 

In my opinion, if BB's wife is going to cheat, it's not going to be with the tree guy. 

But just for the fun of it, lets say a woman is aggressively pursing my husband and in my estimation he is wantonly encouraging it. I think I'd be out. Not because the situation is a threat to my marriage, but because the marriage is already over in my book. I wouldn't need help determining that for myself.

----


MEM11363 said:


> As for motives - why does anyone do this crap. Because it feels good to have someone chase you. Her motives are normal.
> 
> Her boundaries are weak as are Boston's.
> 
> A boundary is simply a tangible representation of your self respect. I find it astonishing that a pro marriage board is full of people discouraging very obvious boundary enforcement.
> 
> Boston is snooping because she's given him cause. I think it's weak, but I do understand it.
> 
> He ought be direct because a marriage can't survive an un acknowledged lack of trust.


"Boundaries" are all well and good up to a point, but beyond that they're an offensive weapon more so than defensive. 

BB doesn't get to set his wife's boundaries. He can express his discomfort with where she sets them, and have the expectation that she cares about him enough to willingly put her feelings on the matter aside. I've done this in my own marriage--I very much enjoy the company of men but when and if my own boundaries make my husband uncomfortable, I'd curb my behavior for his sake . . . . until it feel like he's trying to control me, and therein, I suppose, lies the rub. 

BB isn't going to change his boundaries (e.g. by not stooping to snooping) and B2 isn't going to change hers (e.g. loosening privacy settings on FB) because neither of them feel like the other person really cares about them or respects them all that much. 

It's called a stand off.


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> Well who is defining the "aggressive pursuing?" What BB has described from the tree guy? --that same behavior from a woman I wouldn't blink an eye at. In fact, my husband has more than once been openly propositioned by women he works with--and they knew he was married. He could have had an affair many times over in our marriage--many men in his shoes would have. But not even once did it ever occur to me to snoop and try to find out. It's just not how I am.
> 
> In my opinion, if BB's wife is going to cheat, it's not going to be with the tree guy.
> 
> But just for the fun of it, lets say a woman is aggressively pursing my husband and in my estimation he is wantonly encouraging it. I think I'd be out. Not because the situation is a threat to my marriage, but because the marriage is already over in my book. I wouldn't need help determining that for myself.
> 
> ----
> 
> 
> "Boundaries" are all well and good up to a point, but beyond that they're an offensive weapon more so than defensive.
> 
> BB doesn't get to set his wife's boundaries. He can express his discomfort with where she sets them, and have the expectation that she cares about him enough to willingly put her feelings on the matter aside. I've done this in my own marriage--I very much enjoy the company of men but when and if my own boundaries make my husband uncomfortable, I'd curb my behavior for his sake . . . . until it feel like he's trying to control me, and therein, I suppose, lies the rub.
> 
> BB isn't going to change his boundaries (e.g. by not stooping to snooping) and B2 isn't going to change hers (e.g. loosening privacy settings on FB) because neither of them feel like the other person really cares about them or respects them all that much.
> 
> It's called a stand off.


I'm snooping because I have sufficient evidence tgat there is more there than she admits. See convo with her ex. See tree man unwillingness to come over when I'm home and her acceptance of that.

So what's her excuse for privacy tightening? Is it because she does r want to get caught? 

This feels like the ole chestnut if suing mcdonalds because the coffee was too hot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

How dare you snoop!
But I caught you sexting..
Yeah but you shouldn't have snooped.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm snooping because I have sufficient evidence tgat there is more there than she admits. See convo with her ex. See tree man unwillingness to come over when I'm home and her acceptance of that.
> 
> So what's her excuse for privacy tightening? Is it because she does r want to get caught?
> 
> This feels like the ole chestnut if suing mcdonalds because the coffee was too hot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then tell her straight up that you have that evidence, and that you think it means she's cheating on you and that you're hunting for the coffin nail. You have every right to make it clear to her that her behavior makes you uncomfortable. And I think she has every right to know that you're looking for the nail.

Lay it all out on the table. This covert sh!t, IMO, is a huge indication that this marriage is on the downside to salvageable.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Wow does my marriage sound terrible. If I read this subjectively it sounds aweful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Wow does my marriage sound terrible. If I read this subjectively it sounds aweful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You might not have full control over your marriage, but you do very much have full control over your dignity. No matter what happens with your wife, there is one person you're still going to have to go to bed with every night and look in the eye every day.


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> Wow does my marriage sound terrible. If I read this subjectively it sounds aweful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'll see your cards and raise you $20. 

My life has been reduced to watching my daughter's college roomie's cat videos, running up my already world class online backgammon rating, blasting away friends and foes alike on Xbox live, and psychoanalyzing toaster ovens.

Marriage is the least of my concerns. 

View attachment 22738


----------



## jld

Lol, john.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

It seems like BB has shown quite a few times that he's not willing to leave, he's not really willing to enforce boundaries. Getting it makes a good point. If she were in that situation, the marriage would already be over and she'd leave. BB doesn't seem willing to take that step, so maybe he should just learn to live with it.

For the record, I'd be shocked if she didn't hook up with someone during her "needs space" period.


----------



## john117

Not all LD's, self diagnosed or otherwise, hook up during their 'me space' periods. Identifying if they did is the ultimate litmus test of generalized LD versus individualized LD. 

If tree-guy and B2 ruffled some leaves during the 'me-space' time it is a different ball game than if they did not. I would guess that tree-guy was appealing in a 'let's show him who he's dealing with' way which is EA speak for nothing happened... If it was PA by money would be on someone closer to B2's idealized male and not tree-guy.


----------



## Blonde

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think it is important to remind folks from time to time that* BB's wife has experienced CSA. I am sure that has an effect on her perceptions and how she trusts. * Not sure this changes jld's advice, but I think it is important to remember, as BB2's reactions may be different because of this experience.


^^This

I wonder if she is afraid of you? I used to hide lots of things from H because I was afraid of his reaction. Nothing "evil", rather benign things such as something broke or spilled. He tends to overreact to ordinary stresses like that and I preferred rug sweeping over facing his anger. Three years of therapy grew me a backbone and healed my self concept so that I became strong enough to be honest and weather such storms.

I have very high privacy settings on FB. Among my reasons are a college BF stalked me for years and I don't want him finding me and I have a masters in engineering from ___ and I don't want my associate degreed RN co-workers knowing this for fear of backlash, nor do I want them to know where I grew up (the Hamptons) nor guestimate our income bracket (I'm just one of the girls!!! )


----------



## Blonde

PieceOfSky said:


> The strikes against him: arrest/jail-time for abusing his wife; alcohol problem out of control at that time; his mother confirmed to my wife he got physically abusive with his parents when he was drunk, or at least they felt threatened; there is more.


Were there 4 young children of his shack-up GF who lived with them? Did his overweight, smoker, drinker, gambler, shack-up drive a big van to her job as a janitor while he substance abused and collected disability? 

My H affaired down too. That's about all I know or care to know besides her being young enough to be his daughter...

Boston, in every single case on TAM where I have interacted with an H with a cheating wife or the cheating wife herself, she is *ALWAYS* faithful and monogamous with her lover and the M is sexless. Not once a week (so called) "sexless", ENTIRELY sexless for many months to years.

So, if she is still having sex with you 1-2 X week, I think you can safely rule out a PA. EA is possible in which case she may be imagining him when she O's with you and her horniness will uptick after a particularly satisfying session of getting her EN's met by him.


----------



## BostonBruins32

So we all agree she was cheating but it was wrong to snoop. Ok
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> So we all agree she was cheating but it was wrong to snoop. Ok
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think she was cheating. Like Blonde said, you are having sex once or twice a week. She likes to spend time with you. She has talked about having another child with you. That doesn't sound like a cheater to me.

We all understand why you snooped. You don't trust her. 

Some of us are just saying there are other ways to handle this besides snooping. Or trying to control her.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I do not at all want to control her. I just need closure. Come on, honestly don't you guys think talking to these guys online etc is fishy? No way this is ok in a " normal " marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I do not at all want to control her. I just need closure. Come on, honestly don't you guys think it's fishy? No way this is ok in a " normal " marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You had posted once that you were separating. Is that on hold?

BB, if you don't want to control her, just come clean with her about your feelings and your worries. Tell her you are sorry you snooped, and that you did it because you don't feel like she is forthcoming. 

Try to put your heart out there. Just be sincere. And be direct. Why hiding?

And try to listen to what she says. She may not say anything. You may have to be patient until she is able to talk.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Good thought. I'll have to just try telling her how I feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Well, it is the most honest thing to do. If the shoe were on the other foot, isn't that what you would like her to do?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Jld. See earlier posts. I've told her 10 times over. With tears. Without them. Eye roll. Laughs. Get over its.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Jld. See earlier posts. I've told her 10 times over. With tears. Without them. Eye roll. Laughs. Get over its.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, I thought you were separating. Is that still on hold?

If I really could not talk to my husband, BB, it would be over. If he treated me that way, I could not bear it.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> I do not at all want to control her. I just need closure. Come on, honestly don't you guys think talking to these guys online etc is fishy? No way this is ok in a " normal " marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*I* said I don't know you wife enough to say. Does talking to guys online _automatically_ equate to fishy? I hope not--I've got plenty of guy friends on FB. Or, as my husband calls them, my "pretend friends." 

It always bugs me when folks justify their own bad behavior by pointing to someone's else's bad behavior and saying "they did it first." Are you okay with snooping? I mean, are you proud of it? What next? Will you eventually justify cheating if your marriage continues to disappoint you? 

I'm not saying you're some horrible scum who has done the unthinkable. But why walk this road at all? You are unhappy, and you are convinced your wife has something to hide. Why don't you draw the line in the sand right there? Why compromise your own integrity in order to figure out if she actually compromised hers? What if she actually has nothing to hide? Now you're the one with the skeleton in the closet. 

Some posters earlier were talking about how you can't love your spouse if you don't respect them. I'd go one further and say you also need to respect yourself in order to love someone else freely.


----------



## BostonBruins32

But why. Why would a married woman even go these routes. You are al right. My boundaries suck. But why is this even happening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

I wish I had the willingness or not give a ****ness to just flirt with ransoms online. Like how do you get there? I don't even have the urge because I am all in on my marriage. Sometimes I width I could check out as easy as her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> But why. Why would a married woman even go these routes. You are al right. My boundaries suck. But why is this even happening.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What routes? 

Needing space?
Having male friends?
Not having desire for her husband?

We're all different BB. Just because we say "I do" doesn't mean we automatically become part of this homogenous group of "Married Women."

I see so much of myself in your wife--the need for space, the needs for privacy, the emotional mistrust in my husband, the fear of being judged by him, the fear of letting go of control. I hid myself from him for years. 

I never once contemplated cheating on him. 

Don't ask why, ask "who?" _Who_ is your wife?


----------



## Catherine602

I would be concerned. Not about her so much but about how you hesitate to be resolute, you are not calm. The way you feel about the things she is doing should be the most important aspect that influences her behavior. 

It appears that she dismisses what causes you grief and does what she wants. If its a problem to you then its a problem. I am not sure she is cheating. But I can see that she may cheat in the future if she does not have firm boundaries. 

What is the big deal about just not talking to this man if it worries you? It is a very small thing to do for someone she should love and want to be happy. 

I worry about you. You talk too much and act too confused. You doubt if your feeling are justified, you hesitate to get your wife to hear you and to defer to you lovingly. That is what any couple would do. You are not functioning as a team but like two advisories. 

Now what? Get yourself together and decide what you both need to do to become a team. Know that you are not asking too much. Don't be put off, don't back off. 

I am not telling you to brow beat her. Be confident in yourself. Don't know exactly what to tell you to do. Listen to the sensible people who are posting on the is thread. 

Ultimately, you are going to have to draw a line in the sand and hold it. Decide where that is and follow through or she may cheat on you, bottom line.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> I wish I had the willingness or not give a ****ness to just flirt with ransoms online. Like how do you get there? I don't even have the urge because I am all in on my marriage. Sometimes I width I could check out as easy as her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My husband always noted that things are always harder for the person who cares more--doesn't matter what the issue is, the person who can smile and shrug and walk away holds the cards. 

Until she comes to understand the destructive power of flaunting your feelings, she won't change. It's not that she's an evil person for being who she is, but when you're the person who cares less, you've got to _learn_ empathy for those who care more.


----------



## jld

So, GettingIt, you are saying he has to be able to walk away? That is when she will start to feel his pain?


----------



## GettingIt_2

jld said:


> So, GettingIt, you are saying he has to be able to walk away? That is when she will start to feel his pain?


Forget her pain--I'm talking about him addressing his own pain in a way that doesn't erode his self respect. 

If BB taking care of himself finally gets the message across that he's been unable to convey with words, then all the better.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> So we all agree she was cheating but it was wrong to snoop. Ok
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you still having sex? If so she is not cheating (anymore than fantasizing to porn while you are doing her is cheating)

I'm neutral about snooping. Couldn't be bothered about that myself. My H can be pretty darn sneaky and evasive but he considers himself a "godly christian" so if I push hard enough he will come clean.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> I do not at all want to control her. I just need closure. Come on, honestly don't you guys think talking to these guys online etc is fishy? No way this is ok in a " normal " marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you should have a serious conversation about it. I wouldn't do it but I'm at least as old as your mother and I do not text period and I like real conversation face to face preferably or telephone will do. FB for a relationship strikes me as very shallow.

But Boston, you talk to women on the forum. About sex. Is that fishy? How would your wife feel about it? If she sees you comparing and being jealous about sexploits OW post on a forum?

TBH I would hate my H hanging around this sub forum.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> I do not at all want to control her. I just need closure. Come on, honestly don't you guys think talking to these guys online etc is fishy? No way this is ok in a " normal " marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have several guys on FB I talk to on occasion. On occasion it's even flirty. I have a few male FB friends with whom I openly flirt. A woman can tell when she is being groomed for a proposition and most women know how to keep it above board. IMO, it's not a huge deal. But I know I am in the minority.

I don't now if she had a fling when she needed space. It seems fishy. It's a huge red flag that was never dealt with and may never be dealt with, particularly since she is so closed off.

I'm sorry Boston. I know your confidence has been shaken.

I keep signing about boundaries. What are you going to put up with? You ask a question and you don't get satisfactory answers. Go with your gut. Trust yourself and keep pushing until you have satisfaction.


----------



## jld

I'm sorry if I have frustrated you with always pushing open communication, BB. I am just not sure anything else works long term in marriage. And I am sorry you are hurting.


----------



## jld

BB, about what TAG said about CSA . . . I think if this is the base of the problem, then, to stay together, you are going to have to be exceptionally kind and understanding of your dw. 

Her being abused would certainly explain why she walked out of therapy. It was painful enough to experience the abuse when she was young; why would she want to relive it in counseling?

I think you feel enough love from her that you want to stay. You know she is troubled. You saw the card from her and you know she has a conscience. You know she likes to be with you. She has some trust in you.

But she is limited, BB. At least for right now. She has a very hurt little girl inside, and she would need tons of love and gentleness and support and understanding, and for a long time, in order to heal.

If you can somehow get stronger on your own, maybe through reading some books, and for sure, getting support from other husbands who have been through this, you may be able to be what she needs. 

You would have to help her, BB. You may have to be what she needs for a long time before she can be what you need.

BB, please don't go down the path of suspecting affairs and trying to control her. Please try to see into her heart, and what damage there may be there. 

Can you love her through it? Can you be her safe harbor? Can you learn to be?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Sorry blonde, to answer your question. No sex in 40 days or so. I haven't initiated, nor has she. Non issue really. I have cuddled her at night and shown affection at random daily. It's been nice. I think she likes it. I just haven't had much interest in initiating. 

Remember when I suspected something fishy with tree man, she was not interested in sex with me more than monthly or bimonthly. Much of my concern with him now is the precedent it set. She is willing to seek male attention or welcome it, invite it to her house, and potentially let it drive a breakup(space).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

And to the women here who are comfortable with their significant other flirting with other men. Keep sinething in mind, she has had zero sexual interest in me. Our marriage has been shaky, she shows no physical attdaction to me. No compliments etc. So I think the comfort in her talking and flirting to other men is heavily reliant on my comfort in her interest in me

In some of your marriages, you are at a healthy place sexually and emotionally. So if your significant other flirts around, who cares. You have very obvious proof tgat he is still into you .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> Fair points.
> 
> Too bad her privacy features on phone and ipad mean more than her marriage. I asked her in October, do you private message your ex?( I knew she did I saw it) she said no. 2 months later I ask again. She says no. I say are you sure. She said well just a few times. I the. Told her that it geeks very difficult to trust her as everything I ask I get a different answer. She said sorry.
> 
> My point is that my gut instincts aren't out of left field.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



BB,

From what you described, she flat out lied.

Lied.

I have no idea of what the significance of that is. It might be "almost nothing" to just the tip of the iceberg.

In my wife's case, the fact she lied once turned out to mean she was willing to lie whenever it was convenient.

Again, I should be clear I have not been following your story that closely. People are making references to things like "earning back her trust" and I have no idea what I've missed there. But, I cannot imagine where someone who has been flat out lied to needs to "earn back the other's trust" before the other will stop lying.

IMO, a flat out lie about talking to anyone, let alone an ex, is more than enough justification to stop trusting her and doing what you need to do to get the facts.

You are in the "Sex in Marriage" section in a thread addressed to "LD women". I am guessing most posters here are NOT cheaters, and most have not been cheated on (though I know some have been cheated on). If you want advice from a larger cross-section of people who have been cheated on or have cheated themselves, consider starting a thread about your infidelity concerns in CWI.

Like anywhere else on TAM, you will get people in CWI telling you they know for sure what is happening, they have seen it all before. It's up to you to filter out that sort of thing where it is not rational. But whatever you do, don't ignore what your feeling. You are the one there, and the one that has to live with it.


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> I do not at all want to control her. I just need closure. Come on, honestly don't you guys think talking to these guys online etc is fishy? No way this is ok in a " normal " marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is not OK in many normal marriages, and it is not OK in yours if that is the limit you want to have and enforce.

You are asking in the wrong forum.


----------



## Blonde

It is concerning BB. I like Sky's advice to go ask on CWI. While I don;t snoop, I know H will tell me any secrets if I press him verbally.

My only other idea is to revisit what worked when you were having sex twice a week not so long ago (which I assumed was the new normal).

And I will repeat again: Marriage Help Program For Couples which is a huge help in learning healthier communication patterns


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> So we all agree she was cheating but it was wrong to snoop. Ok
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Too be clear, I have no idea if she was cheating, but, I do not believe it was wrong for you to snoop.

The thing with cheaters is they will lie even when you are holding evidence like a burner phone in your hand.

If you have worries, then asking her is not going to make those worries go away. That's not your fault. That's not your wife's fault, if she has been completely faithful.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blonde said:


> Were there 4 young children of his shack-up GF who lived with them? Did his overweight, smoker, drinker, gambler, shack-up drive a big van to her job as a janitor while he substance abused and collected disability?
> 
> My H affaired down too. That's about all I know or care to know besides her being young enough to be his daughter...


Sorry, Blonde. Maybe not appropriate and helpful for me to say, but I am sorry that happened to you. Thanks for sharing that because I think people are blind to affairing-down even being a possibility, thought it might actually be common.



> Boston, in every single case on TAM where I have interacted with an H with a cheating wife or the cheating wife herself, she is *ALWAYS* faithful and monogamous with her lover and the M is sexless. Not once a week (so called) "sexless", ENTIRELY sexless for many months to years.
> 
> So, if she is still having sex with you 1-2 X week, I think you can safely rule out a PA. EA is possible in which case she may be imagining him when she O's with you and her horniness will uptick after a particularly satisfying session of getting her EN's met by him.


The only uptick in our sex life in the last fifteen years was in fact during my wife's EA. I was clueless at the time, but figured it out much much later. It is comforting and scary at the same time to hear you, Blonde, call that out as something you have seen before.

Now off to ponder the possible relevance of what you noted there about ENTIRELY sexless periods.


----------



## naiveonedave

If this was on CWI, the hounds would be out about her cheating. EA seems likely when she wanted space. The vets over there would say a woman "wanting space" wants space to be w/another man.


----------



## PieceOfSky

GettingIt said:


> Why compromise your own integrity in order to figure out if she actually compromised hers? What if she actually has nothing to hide? Now you're the one with the skeleton in the closet.


I have no bad feelings about myself about any snooping I did. I would do it again, whether I had found she was cheating or not.

I do, however, regret not snooping sooner and not snooping more effectively. There are questions I will never have the answer to, and those haunt me daily.

BB was lied to. It is natural, and healthy, to want to know the extent of the lies. His sanity and his marriage very may well depend on him finding out sooner rather than later. Those who have been cheated on will tell you STOPPING the affair as soon as possible is extremely important if you want to have a chance of saving the marriage. You cannot stop an affair by simply asking the spouse if one is going on. You cannot even get the emotional strength to stop an affair if you are drowning in a sea of ambiguous potentials and behavior. KNOWING with certainty is an extremely powerful healer.

Regarding the bit about snooping leading to justifying his own future infidelity, that just makes no sense to me. That's like telling the police they shouldn't investigate someone because the police might lose their moral compass and end up committing the crime they set out to investigate.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blonde said:


> I think you should have a serious conversation about it. I wouldn't do it but I'm at least as old as your mother and I do not text period and I like real conversation face to face preferably or telephone will do. FB for a relationship strikes me as very shallow.
> 
> But Boston, you talk to women on the forum. About sex. Is that fishy? How would your wife feel about it? If she sees you comparing and being jealous about sexploits OW post on a forum?
> 
> TBH I would hate my H hanging around this sub forum.


Having public discussions on a pro-marriage board is very different than having private discussions with people you have met in real life, have had sex with before (the ex).

Lying about private discussions is in a class by itself.


----------



## MEM2020

This is the entirety of it. 

Her connection with you is for shlt. And because of that she gets her sexual excitement with her ex, with the tree guy, etc. 

Of course she lies about talking to her ex. Because it's not innocent. 

Flirting is innocent when the flirted has NO DESIRE to take it to a conclusion. 

Your W is as sexually frustrated as you are, in a way. 

And as for it having been 40 days, of course it's been 40 days. You know how I know? As soon as you mentioned her melt down post baby shower, I expected her to flip the sex off switch. 

Because you didn't comfort her and tell her that soon you two would be having a baby. And within a few weeks of that you directly told her that B4 was off the table. B4 was the whole unspoken reason she was having sex with you. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> And to the women here who are comfortable with their significant other flirting with other men. Keep sinething in mind, she has had zero sexual interest in me. Our marriage has been shaky, she shows no physical attdaction to me. No compliments etc. So I think the comfort in her talking and flirting to other men is heavily reliant on my comfort in her interest in me
> 
> In some of your marriages, you are at a healthy place sexually and emotionally. So if your significant other flirts around, who cares. You have very obvious proof tgat he is still into you .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

Thank you piece of sky. 

Public discussion on here is very different from private discussion on facebook with guy you know likes you, and only chats with you between 10am and 4pm (oddly enough when your husband is at work).

Look the chats over past few months do not look like cheating or an affair. I have concerns about what lead up to her "time away" in october, but more importantly I have concerns about her perception of what is ok in a marriage and what is not. 

Blonde, the sex thing. She was letting me have sex with her once a week for about a month and a half. I have not initiated in about 40 days. the last conversation we had a month ago, were it was very clear she does not percieve changes in my behavior around her, the house, and B3 really put me off(i detailed this on this thread in an effort of transparency). I also really took what MEM said and internalized it. She was letting me have sex with her. Really thats what it was. Again, maybe I'm asking for too much, but her "fine we can have sex" reaction just doesnt get my engine running. Lucky for all parties involved, I dont have the guts to outsource sex, instead I just have to focus harder on our relationship outside the bedroom (could be a nice return on investment), and hobbies/work. This takes my mind off of sex, for now. I still have urges, but I am confident the woman in the bed next to me does not want to have sex. She may be sleeping close to me. She may be facing me. She may be 70% on my side of the bed at night. All nice things. But she does not view me as her sexual partner right now. So thats that. 

I needed her validation that I've improved on my end. I stopped needing this. Just like I've stopped needing her to make me happy or satisfy me. Again, this is counselor advice 101. 

The snooping I do on occassion is because of two things. I have triggers (her being online for 4 hours straight at night or her being distant for seemingly no reason) that go off sometimes and I get an unsettling feeling in my stomach. Yep I need to get over it and stop it. I'm trying. It's not easy, and if any of you have experienced some form of heartache or betrayal, then you would probably agree its hard. The conversations on this board have made me really thing the value in snooping, so thank you to everyone. I felt dirty about it, i feel more dirty about it now.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> This is the entirety of it.
> 
> Her connection with you is for shlt. And because of that she gets her sexual excitement with her ex, with the tree guy, etc.
> 
> Of course she lies about talking to her ex. Because it's not innocent.
> 
> Flirting is innocent when the flirted has NO DESIRE to take it to a conclusion.
> 
> Your W is as sexually frustrated as you are, in a way.
> 
> And as for it having been 40 days, of course it's been 40 days. You know how I know? As soon as you mentioned her melt down post baby shower, I expected her to flip the sex off switch. *well in fairness here, I have not initiated. I've avoided any opportunity to have sex. She has been flirty a few times and I giggled it off. It was mid day and not really at a time or place where it could lead to sex. Had I tried at any point in the past few weeks, I think she would have complied as usual, but as I outlined, I have not felt really interested in it with her. So i think this is more me than her. *
> 
> Because you didn't comfort her and tell her that soon you two would be having a baby. And within a few weeks of that you directly told her that B4 was off the table. B4 was the whole unspoken reason she was having sex with you.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> The conversations on this board have made me really thing the value in snooping, so thank you to everyone. I felt dirty about it, i feel more dirty about it now.


:scratchhead:

I've never snooped and frankly I don't want to live my life that way. And H has snuck around violating boundaries he agreed to. But I still don't want to live my life that way. 

However, to me snoop or not snoop is not really a moral issue or something to feel dirty about


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> Blonde, the sex thing. She was letting me have sex with her once a week for about a month and a half. I have not initiated in about 40 days. the last conversation we had a month ago, were it was very clear she does not percieve changes in my behavior around her, the house, and B3 really put me off(i detailed this on this thread in an effort of transparency). I also really took what MEM said and internalized it. She was letting me have sex with her. Really thats what it was. Again, maybe I'm asking for too much, but her "fine we can have sex" reaction just doesnt get my engine running. Lucky for all parties involved, I dont have the guts to outsource sex, instead I just have to focus harder on our relationship outside the bedroom (could be a nice return on investment), and hobbies/work. This takes my mind off of sex, for now. I still have urges, but I am confident the woman in the bed next to me does not want to have sex. She may be sleeping close to me. She may be facing me. She may be 70% on my side of the bed at night. All nice things. But she does not view me as her sexual partner right now. So thats that.


The M vows include "to have and to hold" which is sex. So you should not be depriving each other chronically like this as that sets each other up for temptation. Just Do It, BB. Do it at least once a week to protect your W from temptation even if your feelings are not all lined up. Sexlessness breaks the M vow- a form of betrayal IMO.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> The M vows include "to have and to hold" which is sex. So you should not be depriving each other chronically like this as that sets each other up for temptation. Just Do It, BB. Do it at least once a week to protect your W from temptation even if your feelings are not all lined up. Sexlessness breaks the M vow- a form of betrayal IMO.


her being deprived of sex. Thats interesting. Thats like another LD poster (forgot who) that got mad at her husband for masturbating after she rejected him for sex. 

If she has temptation for sex, i'm right here. As we've outlined, its pretty clear she either doesn't have temptation for sex or doesnt have temptation for sex with me. Again, I'm in the room, I'm in the bed. I'm available, and have made it clear how much I like sex. she knows wher my pen15 is located, she can find it. She knows it takes minimal work to get my engine running. In the days where she initiated, it was very clear to me. She has not done that in god knows how long. 

And if she is interested in sex, and gets tempted to seek it elsewhere, then that is a much bigger issue.


----------



## BostonBruins32

gotta hand it to you Blonde. My wife and MIL would love you. 

My MIL leads the league in excuses for her wrong doings. One time blaming the town for putting a telephone pole in a certain spot, after she backed into it. No lie. 

You're unwaivering support of thier actions is admirable. And I'm not being sarcastic in the slightest. It's remarkable.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> well in fairness here, I have not initiated. I've avoided any opportunity to have sex. She has been flirty a few times and I giggled it off. It was mid day and not really at a time or place where it could lead to sex. Had I tried at any point in the past few weeks, I think she would have complied as usual, but as I outlined, I have not felt really interested in it with her. So i think this is more me than her.


You should at least initiate once a week sex! It is your DUTY!

Scroll down and read the clips from Rabbi Lamm

Under Much Grace: Sex As A Married Wife's Right and A Husband's Duty ("The Jewish Way")


----------



## BostonBruins32

I hear ya blonde. I'll check that out.

Its just really hard to get revved up for the sex when she eye rolls it and seemingly says "ok fine"..


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> The snooping I do on occassion is because of two things. I have triggers (her being online for 4 hours straight at night or her being distant for seemingly no reason) that go off sometimes and I get an unsettling feeling in my stomach. Yep I need to get over it and stop it. I'm trying. It's not easy, and if any of you have experienced some form of heartache or betrayal, then you would probably agree its hard. The conversations on this board have made me really thing the value in snooping, so thank you to everyone. I felt dirty about it, i feel more dirty about it now.


I've snooped. And I've never felt dirty about it either. I suspect my husband has snooped as well.

To me trust is not a one time bargain. It has to be consistently offered, given and accepted. Granted, I have trust issues  Trust is easily damaged, but also easily repairable. 

That's why I suggested you trust you gut. If your gut is telling you something then you should listen, investigate and figure things out.

I hate CWI! Good luck wading through all the bitterness and assumptions. But there are some reasonable regulars in there. The trick is recognizing them.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> gotta hand it to you Blonde. My wife and MIL would love you.


My H loves me to crack the whip about his sexual DUTY


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> I hear ya blonde. I'll check that out.
> 
> Its just really hard to get revved up for the sex when she eye rolls it and seemingly says "ok fine"..


But you indicated earlier in the thread that she O's. Real women are not like porn, BB. Takes a bit of persuasion to get us warmed up. That is why the idea of "DUTY SEX" turned around and laid on the H amuses me and strikes a cord. 

Give her a great O at least weekly. Do it out of an unselfish desire to keep YOUR vows, and to serve and protect her (from temptation). (Use protection though)


----------



## Anon Pink

Blonde said:


> But you indicated earlier in the thread that she O's. Real women are not like porn, BB. Takes a bit of persuasion to get us warmed up. That is why the idea of "DUTY SEX" turned around and laid on the H amuses me and strikes a cord.
> 
> Give her a great O at least weekly. Do it out of an unselfish desire to keep YOUR vows, and to serve and protect her (from temptation). (Use protection though)


Blonde, my respect for you grows every day. From the web page you linked...




> According to Lamm, *sexual gratification is a right of the wife and not the right of the husband.* The husband's duty includes fulfillment of the wife's desires under Jewish law, not the other way around. (Did I miss a chapter in the New Testament wherein a wife's rights were removed under marriage in Christ?)


Now get to work men!


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> And to the women here who are comfortable with their significant other flirting with other men. Keep sinething in mind, she has had zero sexual interest in me. Our marriage has been shaky, she shows no physical attdaction to me. No compliments etc. So I think the comfort in her talking and flirting to other men is heavily reliant on my comfort in her interest in me
> 
> In some of your marriages, you are at a healthy place sexually and emotionally. So if your significant other flirts around, who cares. You have very obvious proof tgat he is still into you .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think this is 100% valid. I'm would not be comfortable with my husband flirting in a way that I felt was being done seriously or taken seriously--not now, and especially not when our marriage was in the tank. 

It's not that I don't understand your feelings, or think you don't have reason to feel that way. I simply caution you not to zoom to conclusions and act upon them in a way that could encourage a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

If you KNOW she cheated, things would be so much clearer to you. If you KNOW she hadn't cheated/been tempted to cheat, things would be so much clearer to you. I get this, BB. 

Most of the advice you get here is based on either 1) the assumption or strong suspicion that she cheated or is about to OR 2) the assumption or strong suspicion that she isn't cheating or about to.

The experience of we posters on this thread have much to do with which camp we fall into with our advice giving. I don't discount that she might be drifting towards infidelity, or might have already been unfaithful. However, I (fortunately) don't have any experience with it, from either end. I DO have the experience of being in a dynamic very much like you are in right now, however. 

To be fair, my husband did tell me that he wondered if I was cheating on him during the years I was distant and had lost my desire for sex with him. I have no idea if he did any snooping, and I'm not sure I want to know. Was I lonely during those years? Yes, I was--and I did increase my social interactions on FB and in real life during those years. My emotional life existed outside our marriage. 

Since our reconciliation, my husband has been on TAM, but he said he abandoned rather quickly, partly because it triggered him. I think visiting CWI just made wheels spin in his head that he didn't want spinning. Had he found CWI in the midst of our troubled years, I wonder what might have happened. 

It comes down to this: what do you fear the most? Are you more afraid of how you'll feel if you give your wife the benefit of the doubt, don't snoop, and move forward with trying to improve your marriage in every way you know how, only to find out that she was cheating on you? *OR* Are you more afraid of operating under the assumption that she's on the path of infidelity, going down the route of snooping, VARS, monitoring her social time, etc. only to find that she was never unfaithful and you now have to live with her broken trust and (possilby) your loss of self esteem?

There isn't a right or wrong answer--we are all different and its a matter of boundaries we set with ourselves. As Piece of Sky and others have said, snooping does not trouble their conscious. You have indicated that you don't like how it makes you feel. That's the way I am--it would bother me, I'd feel "dirty," so I'd rather not have it on my mind. At the very least, I'd want to tell my husband what I'd done so I'd feel like he could fairly judge me, just as I want to be able to fairly judge him. 

I feel terrible for you BB, I really do. You're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Be true to yourself--that is the best advice I can give to you.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
If you want to fix something, the first step is acceptance that said item is broken. 

So let's try something which perhaps you have done before, but let's do it differently. 

Totally calm, soft voice, very few words:

I recognize that you are willing to have sex even though you don't really desire it. I just need you to understand that I have no interest in sex with someone who:
- is at best tolerating it and
- seems to be mainly getting their rocks off from the sexual attention of other men

And then shut up. Don't jam the channel with words, emotion, aggression or anything else. Just listen and empathize and do whatever you can to draw B2 out. 

And don't preface those statements with some lead up. Don't kick off with: I want to talk about our marriage and what's wrong with it. 

Because you want to hit those points calm and quick and then absorb the response. 




QUOTE=BostonBruins32;8528202]her being deprived of sex. Thats interesting. Thats like another LD poster (forgot who) that got mad at her husband for masturbating after she rejected him for sex. 

If she has temptation for sex, i'm right here. As we've outlined, its pretty clear she either doesn't have temptation for sex or doesnt have temptation for sex with me. Again, I'm in the room, I'm in the bed. I'm available, and have made it clear how much I like sex. she knows wher my pen15 is located, she can find it. She knows it takes minimal work to get my engine running. In the days where she initiated, it was very clear to me. She has not done that in god knows how long. 

And if she is interested in sex, and gets tempted to seek it elsewhere, then that is a much bigger issue.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

Funny thing about all this is that I don't see cheating as their real issue. 

The real issue is that their marital bond is so weak that:
- She craves the sexual attention of other men 
- Boston is looking for a smoking gun to give him a clean exit from a marriage that he despairs of fixing

Funny thing is, I can't tell whether they truly are incompatible or if Boston simply hasn't learned how to read her cues. 

What I mean by that is, even if he could read her cues they might yet be incompatible. 




GettingIt said:


> I think this is 100% valid. I'm would not be comfortable with my husband flirting in a way that I felt was being done seriously or taken seriously--not now, and especially not when our marriage was in the tank.
> 
> It's not that I don't understand your feelings, or think you don't have reason to feel that way. I simply caution you not to zoom to conclusions and act upon them in a way that could encourage a self-fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> If you KNOW she cheated, things would be so much clearer to you. If you KNOW she hadn't cheated/been tempted to cheat, things would be so much clearer to you. I get this, BB.
> 
> Most of the advice you get here is based on either 1) the assumption or strong suspicion that she cheated or is about to OR 2) the assumption or strong suspicion that she isn't cheating or about to.
> 
> The experience of we posters on this thread have much to do with which camp we fall into with our advice giving. I don't discount that she might be drifting towards infidelity, or might have already been unfaithful. However, I (fortunately) don't have any experience with it, from either end. I DO have the experience of being in a dynamic very much like you are in right now, however.
> 
> To be fair, my husband did tell me that he wondered if I was cheating on him during the years I was distant and had lost my desire for sex with him. I have no idea if he did any snooping, and I'm not sure I want to know. Was I lonely during those years? Yes, I was--and I did increase my social interactions on FB and in real life during those years. My emotional life existed outside our marriage.
> 
> Since our reconciliation, my husband has been on TAM, but he said he abandoned rather quickly, partly because it triggered him. I think visiting CWI just made wheels spin in his head that he didn't want spinning. Had he found CWI in the midst of our troubled years, I wonder what might have happened.
> 
> It comes down to this: what do you fear the most? Are you more afraid of how you'll feel if you give your wife the benefit of the doubt, don't snoop, and move forward with trying to improve your marriage in every way you know how, only to find out that she was cheating on you? *OR* Are you more afraid of operating under the assumption that she's on the path of infidelity, going down the route of snooping, VARS, monitoring her social time, etc. only to find that she was never unfaithful and you now have to live with her broken trust and (possilby) your loss of self esteem?
> 
> There isn't a right or wrong answer--we are all different and its a matter of boundaries we set with ourselves. As Piece of Sky and others have said, snooping does not trouble their conscious. You have indicated that you don't like how it makes you feel. That's the way I am--it would bother me, I'd feel "dirty," so I'd rather not have it on my mind. At the very least, I'd want to tell my husband what I'd done so I'd feel like he could fairly judge me, just as I want to be able to fairly judge him.
> 
> I feel terrible for you BB, I really do. You're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Be true to yourself--that is the best advice I can give to you.


----------



## BostonBruins32

_"how you'll feel if you give your wife the benefit of the doubt, don't snoop, and move forward with trying to improve your marriage in every way you know how, only to find out that she was cheating on you?"_ more this than the other question.

Complete honesty here. I am probably more afraid of wasting 10 years of my life thinking one thing only to have it be another. I am worried that she keeps so many men on low burners on the oven just so she has something available when she finally has the confidence to move on (assuming she'd like to but I'm the "right" place to be for now, $, kids, house etc). My self esteem outside of the relationship is fine. Realistically, I know I'm a good person. I know I'm attractive (i dont think im the **** but you know what i mean), I know I'm a good parent, I know I'm successful on some level. 

My self esteem in the marriage has been dented heavily. She has taken comfort in talking to other men online and even being somewhat sneaky about it. She has taken a mysterious time away from me. She will not communicate from the heart with me. This is why I spin so much. I'm analytical, I can't help it. To me, everything means something. her actions mean something. They aren't just "how she is". They mean something. I worry that I won't have this meaning until I'm 45 years old. I worry less about the meaning and more about the time wasted wondering.


----------



## BostonBruins32

pains me to say that MEM, but I honestly think there is truth to your comment about the cues. I actually thought that to myself recently. Given the personality, behaviors, etc, ...I wonder why we're together? I wonder if we are compatible?

The counselor said the push and pulls we have with one another woudl be with anyone else we were with. She said this is very common. She said that pushing ourselves to be uncomfortable is like lifting weights. Breaks the muscle and rebuilds it stronger. Something like that. So it sounds nice, but it feels different.


----------



## john117

You could divorce her next month and she'll pull the next bachelor one out of the oven and repeat with him with the same exact results.

All she gets out of the process is control. Something she desperately feels she needs to deal with her issues. 

As long as the skeletons in the past are not dealt with in a satisfactory manner that's all she wrote. Her lack of flexibility and empathy are the easiest ways to tell.

It's probably decades away for you but think that you're 60-65 each and grown kids and all that and you have a medical issue that requires the care of a spouse. It happens. What then? If there's no empathy and flexibility you'll get kicked to the curb faster than you can say TAM. 

I know it's difficult to project 30 years down the road but try it. At that point sex is the least of your concerns. 

You're in a situation that could well have no answer. It happens. Write down reasons for staying or leaving short and long term (aka relationship inventory) and see how that looks like.

The way I read the next 5-10 years my wife has an order or two of magnitude more to lose than I do in case of a split... In her mind she'll cling to the status quo till he11 freezes over. But it'll be too late.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> pains me to say that MEM, but I honestly think there is truth to your comment about the cues. I actually thought that to myself recently. Given the personality, behaviors, etc, ...I wonder why we're together? I wonder if we are compatible?


My husband and I are TOTALLY incompatible. Accepting that and accepting that we had to bend way out of our comfort zones for one another has been the key to our current success. I give HUGE credit to my husband for being willing to make the changes needed in order to trip my sexual desire. 

I won't lie--it wasn't easy getting here. But that doesn't mean you're doomed, either. Your hurdle is getting your wife to want to give you the marriage that YOU need instead of just settling for the one SHE needs.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> _"how you'll feel if you give your wife the benefit of the doubt, don't snoop, and move forward with trying to improve your marriage in every way you know how, only to find out that she was cheating on you?"_ more this than the other question.
> 
> Complete honesty here. I am probably more afraid of wasting 10 years of my life thinking one thing only to have it be another. I am worried that she keeps so many men on low burners on the oven just so she has something available when she finally has the confidence to move on (assuming she'd like to but I'm the "right" place to be for now, $, kids, house etc). My self esteem outside of the relationship is fine. Realistically, I know I'm a good person. I know I'm attractive (i dont think im the **** but you know what i mean), I know I'm a good parent, I know I'm successful on some level.
> 
> My self esteem in the marriage has been dented heavily. She has taken comfort in talking to other men online and even being somewhat sneaky about it. She has taken a mysterious time away from me. She will not communicate from the heart with me. This is why I spin so much. I'm analytical, I can't help it. To me, everything means something. her actions mean something. They aren't just "how she is". They mean something. I worry that I won't have this meaning until I'm 45 years old. I worry less about the meaning and more about the time wasted wondering.


Ten years wasted is ten years wasted--does it really matter what the reason she's so checked out is? I know the thought of her cheating drives you crazy, the not knowing, the what ifs, the second guessing, the round and round in your head. 

You might NEVER get the meaning, BB--be it when you're 55 or 65. Maybe that is what you should be coming to terms with, no matter how you decide to proceed with the "detective work." 

I have a suggestion for you: google "rumination OCD" and see if any of it resonates with you.


----------



## jld

GettingIt said:


> My husband and I are TOTALLY incompatible. Accepting that and accepting that we had to bend way out of our comfort zones for one another has been the key to our current success. I give HUGE credit to my husband for being willing to make the changes needed in order to trip my sexual desire.
> 
> I won't lie--it wasn't easy getting here. But that doesn't mean you're doomed, either. Your hurdle is getting your wife to want to give you the marriage that YOU need instead of just settling for the one SHE needs.


I don't think she is getting what she needs. I think if he could give her what she needs, she would give him what he needs.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I don't think she is getting what she needs. I think if he could give her what she needs, she would give him what he needs.



But she won't say what she needs other than material things by raising the bar. 

J2 longs for a bigger house (the misery of living in only 6000 sq ft :rofl. We pass 10,000 sq ft mansions on a daily basis and she wishes she had one of those. 

My response is to marry better next time and make sure the new husband is, ehem, well taken care of... 

They don't want to dig deep and tell you what they want because the lose the perceived control.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> I don't think she is getting what she needs. I think if he could give her what she needs, she would give him what he needs.


I wish I knew what she needed. She rejected the 5 languages of love reading i offered 

her primary needs appear to be taking care of things (making sur car is running), being a sounding board (listening to her venting), coparenting, being present (being with her when we go to visit family or do things, as opposed to skipping out). 

I tHINK these are some of her needs, she said these things are important. I do these things. But I think there are more needs that I'm not meeting.


----------



## john117

It doesn't matter. These are needs any of us have. Look for the NON OBVIOUS needs.

Like the need to open up and accept her skeletons if she ever decides to bring them out (unlikely). It's like pin the tail on an invisible donkey while blindfolded.


----------



## BostonBruins32

yeah.. very true. I wish I had more substance on her CSA story. Its still very vague and I cant grasp the impact it has on her behavior now.


Her mom's behavior reflected in her behavior is VERY clear very very clear. When I step back and internalize this, It answers about 30% of my questions. I still have a ton more.


----------



## jld

What about the CSA, BB?

She rejected therapy because, I think, she is scared of it. How about reading what other husbands of CSA have done to promote healing in their wives?

Sheesh, I may read about it myself. I would like to extend compassion and support to these women.


----------



## jld

If you can help heal her heart, the need for setting limits will be greatly lessened, I think. Without healing, like John said, she will do the same avoiding stuff with the next guy.

And I think you love her. I think that is why you stay with her. If there really were not any love, you would have been completely selfish and left long ago.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I do love her. I just feel disconnected from her. I also feel insecure about her love for me. Honest.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> I wish I knew what she needed. She rejected the 5 languages of love reading i offered
> 
> her primary needs appear to be taking care of things (making sur car is running), being a sounding board (listening to her venting), coparenting, being present (being with her when we go to visit family or do things, as opposed to skipping out).
> 
> I tHINK these are some of her needs, she said these things are important. I do these things. But I think there are more needs that I'm not meeting.


1. If my husband came home with a book he wanted us to read together to improve our relationship I would be over the moon! Back in our bad old days he could have skipped years of discontent had he confronted our troubles rather than bury his head in his work.

2. I bet there are several needs you're not meeting. Number one being her need to feel safe. And this ties in with what TAG, JLD, and Dug have suggested though having been in your wife's shoes I'm not confident in the rationality of this need. Pushing her out of her comfort zone is not helping her feel safe. But it is a need she has that she doesn't know she has. You skirt the edge of helping her feel safe; you allow her to avoid issues and give crap answers without challenge...safe. Yet you don't completely accept her as she is, rightly so IMO, so that also doesn't make her feel safe. She can't completely gage where your boundaries are, I think.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I do love her. I just feel disconnected from her. I also feel insecure about her love for me. Honest.


I know. We all hurt for you, BB.

BB, I think she loves you as much as she can love a man right now. She needs healing. John is a tremendous resource for this. I think he has suggested therapy. 

But in order for her to get up the courage to face her fear, and accept counseling, she needs lots and lots of love and support. She needs patience, and to hear the truth, as she is able to. If you can give her these things, I think she could get up the courage to do the heavy duty work.

You would have to be able to find it in yourself to do that. It is not forced on you. You could wash your hands of her. 

If you decide to take on this challenge, you will grow, too. You will face your own fears, and heal them, too. You will have to.

This is a great opportunity for growth for you. But it is a choice. You do not have to accept it.


----------



## jld

AP, how were you able to feel safe enough to be willing to accept being challenged out of your comfort zones? (If that makes sense!)


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> I do love her. I just feel disconnected from her. I also feel insecure about her love for me. Honest.



If you really love her you stick with her to the extent that it at least helps her being with you. 

But if it gets to the point where her actions or intentions are a danger to you (age 65 example from my case) then you bail for self preservation rather than happiness reasons.


----------



## john117

AP, if her need to feel safe means to be safe from physical intimacy then we are back to square one. 

She has to fight that battle and win it on her terms then they can think about moving forward. It's not like BB is a Lannister headsman or other not so safe feeling provoking type of person.

Dig further into what it means to be safe. A house or a 10,000 sq ft house? She won't know because finding out means revisiting old skeletons.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> But if it gets to the point where her actions or intentions are a danger to you (age 65 example from my case) then you bail for self preservation rather than happiness reasons.


You are so cynical, John. You really think you'll dump your wife at 65 and find an ole lady who wants to take on a senile ole man?

You don't need a spouse who cares enough to visit you in the nursing home when you have children. The children will visit. 

I forget how he put it but one time early in my recovery my H told me that he never felt he was able to really reach me, I lived with a wall up all the time. Truly, I never did and still don't feel safe with him. Thank God I am a Christian and have God to feel safe with 

He is also far and away the more romantic: mushy cards and flowers and dinners out and memorable getaway weekends. I was pretty hurt and shut down by the adultery at years 7 and 26 and I don't want to be very vulnerable with him to this day (by being all gushy romantic...)


----------



## john117

You misunderstood me. 

I would rather split at 55-57 anticipating DIY long term care on my own dime and terms if needed rather than stay married to someone who will dump me to the nearest nursing home once I break a nail at 65.

Even worse, why stay married to take care of someone at 65+ knowing full well they won't reciprocate?

Throw money into the picture (I want a small place to live and travel, she wants to spend it all on a house) and you get the idea.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> AP, if her need to feel safe means to be safe from physical intimacy then we are back to square one.


For satisfying physical intimacy, a W has to lose control while an H has to stay in control.

The fact that Mrs B is capable of letting go... and lose control to ride the wave to O is a good sign IMO. 

"Lose control and O" is good therapy for her control issues.


----------



## Anon Pink

jld said:


> AP, how were you able to feel safe enough to be willing to accept being challenged out of your comfort zones? (If that makes sense!)


Good question! Complicated answer.

Honestly, I can't say if his years of passive check out helped me to feel safe enough to start questioning myself and why I remained so unhappy when he gave me what I wanted; space, house, kids... I just know that my reaction to and aversion of my own sexuality caused him to distance himself. I didn't fully understand what my problem was but during the worst of it I had no intention of "going there" to figure it out. I had to become pretty unhappy before I decided I couldn't live like this anymore. And I also knew it would be the same with any other man, which was why the thought of another man never crossed my mind.

Idk, maybe I'm just crazy.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> AP, if her need to feel safe means to be safe from physical intimacy then we are back to square one.
> 
> She has to fight that battle and win it on her terms then they can think about moving forward. It's not like BB is a Lannister headsman or other not so safe feeling provoking type of person.
> 
> Dig further into what it means to be safe. A house or a 10,000 sq ft house? She won't know because finding out means revisiting old skeletons.


No what I was referring to is safety in terms of not being pushed to look at things she doesn't feel ready to look at. But blonde nailed it I think.

If she can give up control to orgasm, she's more than half way there IMO.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> Even worse, why stay married to take care of someone at 65+ knowing full well they won't reciprocate?


Vows? "in sickness and health"

I didn't promise to keep them only if he would (and I don't have a great deal of confidence he would, though he likes "The Notebook")


----------



## john117

I'm sure if and when the time comes I will upheld my vows - but have serious reservations she will reciprocate so...

If you have taken your kids to 99% of their medical / dental / etc appointments and the wife growls that she has to do the rest that's not a positive sign


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> For satisfying physical intimacy, a W has to lose control while an H has to stay in control.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that Mrs B is capable of letting go... and lose control to ride the wave to O is a good sign IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> "Lose control and O" is good therapy for her control issues.



Capable but unwilling is pretty similar to incapable. 

A good sign, like me saying I can bike a mile or two, but not bike to Paducah Tackle and Bait ten miles away. 

It's human nature to see possibilities and good omens but they do not always pan out.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
For the moment, let's leave the question of love to the philosophers and instead focus on respect. 

Ask the women on here if they can love a man they don't respect. 

If you cannot obtain respect from your wife:
- she will continue the inappropriate relationships and
- she will NOT feel love and desire for you 

To gain respect you must:
- learn to read her cues (there are lots of them)
- let her vent without enabling her bad behavior 
- stop rewarding her bad behavior with hugs, kisses and affection (meaning: When she's a bltch, and doesn't choose to acknowledge it, force some space. You can't expect her to stop kicking you in the teeth, if your response shortly thereafter is puppy dog like. Don't bring it up, she knows what she did. But don't act like everything's fine an hour later).

Speak your mind in very short statements. But I'm thinking you ought not challenge her on the eye rolls, etc. Because they reflect a lack of respect, the eye rolling is a good ongoing gauge of respect. 

She cannot love you - like that - because she doesn't respect you. That said, you ought give it 6 months with that being your sole focus. If you cannot crack the respect code in that time, you likely never will. 

I don't think you're broken, I just don't believe you are strong enough to be a compatible partner for her. Your the guy she'll keep around for all the mechanics of life: parenting, bill paying, etc. In parallel with that her romantic activities will continue, and the lack of respect for you and the marriage will eventually lead to an affair. 

As for what actually happened, if you REALLY have to know, there's a way to find out. It's ugly but it will work. Go visit your MIL. Bring B3 as a prop. And then get B3 out the room, and face to face, at close range ask her. And watch her closely. You'll know one of 3 things:
- Either she really doesn't know
- B2 told her that she was getting close but didn't 
- B2 confessed to her

Personally, I wouldn't do that. The past is frozen. The only thing that really matters if you can fix what's broken between you. If you can, she likely won't cheat again. If you can't, she almost certainly will cheat at some point. She does want sex, just not with you. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> pains me to say that MEM, but I honestly think there is truth to your comment about the cues. I actually thought that to myself recently. Given the personality, behaviors, etc, ...I wonder why we're together? I wonder if we are compatible?
> 
> The counselor said the push and pulls we have with one another woudl be with anyone else we were with. She said this is very common. She said that pushing ourselves to be uncomfortable is like lifting weights. Breaks the muscle and rebuilds it stronger. Something like that. So it sounds nice, but it feels different.


----------



## Anon Pink

Nope, can't love a man I don't respect. I don't know how Blonde does it. But she's an unusual bird. Walks on water as far as I'm concerned. Bit nuts but that's okay.


----------



## Blonde

I hear ya John and identify. I envision two compact easy care houses on tiny lots one up north for the summer and fall and one down south for the winter. I sure hope I can twist my H's arm to leave his farmhouse, acreage, and his antique tractor collection when we retire. And he LOVES skiing. I told him I'll come up north with him for two weeks in the winter so he can get his ski fix.

If we all should live that long and H doesn't damage himself ski jumping


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> Capable but unwilling is pretty similar to incapable.


Can you view it as her therapy and your service rendered to her instead of something she gives and withholds?

Give up the porn, buildup some sexual tension, and pour on the romance and persuasion because she NEEDS you man!

Lay down your life and give that woman O's she will never forget


----------



## john117

Mine is one Florida apartment and one in Europe (it's already there). Six months each plus travel...


----------



## Blonde

Anon Pink said:


> I don't know how Blonde does it.


If he's lurking, he'll get mad that I don't defend him 

He looks like George Clooney. Very hot! And he provides regular therapy for my control issues. 

TBH I think I do have respect for him but I was angry for a long time @ the betrayals of trust.


----------



## MEM2020

Overall B2 doesn't like the experience. 

As to why, well that matters a lot. If CSA, then needs counseling, if it's the mechanics of what Boston is doing, then needs to tell him.

This woman comes on a board and posts for a while. She's mid forties, very smart, writes like a professional journalist. Her story is entirely coherent and consistent. Over a period of months I came to trust that her perceptions were likely very accurate. 

The mechanics of sex with her H were a disaster. He was handsome and fit and very wealthy. 

BUT: he was unwilling to accept any non verbal feedback from her in bed. They had become sexless (which he was furious about) because his routine was always exactly the same:
- brief kissing
- he gave her oral sex to completion
- he expected oral sex as foreplay and would not proceed without it
- and the DEAL KILLER for her was that intercourse lasted between 15 seconds and a minute. With a minute being his all time record. 

She liked the orgasm, disliked the overall experience. And she O'd every time they had sex. 

Only B2 knows why she dislikes sex with Boston, suffice to say that she dislikes it enough to be willing to wreck the marriage over it. It might be that the lack of respect is the sole issue. Or it might be that plus something explicitly related to sex such as CSA or mechanics. 


QUOTE=john117;8535234]Capable but unwilling is pretty similar to incapable. 

A good sign, like me saying I can bike a mile or two, but not bike to Paducah Tackle and Bait ten miles away. 

It's human nature to see possibilities and good omens but they do not always pan out.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> Can you view it as her therapy and your service rendered to her instead of something she gives and withholds?
> 
> 
> 
> Give up the porn, buildup some sexual tension, and pour on the romance and persuasion because she NEEDS you man!
> 
> 
> 
> Lay down your life and give that woman O's she will never forget



It takes two to tango. I have tried some basic CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) with her and unfortunately it's not going anywhere since she refuses to participate. Also won't try therapy of any kind.

All the romance in the world won't help. Tried that. Persuasion? Tried that. 

Remember what I said about NonNormalPeople (tm)...


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> - and the DEAL KILLER for her was that intercourse lasted between 15 seconds and a minute. With a minute being his all time record.


 

My H has enormous self control. He can take me so close in various ways, plays me like a violin, but stops because *he* wants to finish together face to face. This is endearing to me and makes me feel loved (and I don't want him reading on this sub forum how other men are...)


----------



## Anon Pink

Blonde said:


> If he's lurking, he'll get mad that I don't defend him
> 
> He looks like George Clooney. Very hot! And he provides regular therapy for my control issues.
> 
> TBH I think I do have respect for him but I was angry for a long time @ the betrayals of trust.


Oh now...did you have to go the George Clooney rout? In that case...I take it all back!

What I should say is....
Pics or it didn't happen!


----------



## Blonde




----------



## Anon Pink

HOT dammmmmmmm!

Be still my thumping heart!


----------



## jld

As John has said, what you are saying would make sense if there were not CSA involved, MEM. Yep, women need to feel respect for their men to trust them, to love them. Men can earn that.

I think Boston could turn this around, but it would require lots of work on himself first. You are in counseling, right, Boston? That is good. A support group for you while learning about CSA and how to support your wife through it would be very helpful.

Try to let her vent without taking it personally. Her issues started long before you arrived on the scene. 

And there is a reason you are together. Someone said we match up with people who vibrate on our level (okay, it was something about tuning forks, lol). Something in her draws you, and something in you draws her to you. She wants to be with you. You are the one she wanted, and I think, still wants, to be with.

Take on the challenge, BB, if you can. If you don't confront the issues in yourself, you will go on to be with someone else with issues like your wife, I'm afraid.


----------



## 1812overture

Boston:

Is TAM helping?

In January you wrote


> Calling all LD women. What are your reasons for rejecting your HD spouse? I initiate about 10 times per month, and get rejected 9 of those times. A few times having sex only once every other month. I've expressed how important sex is to me with my wife and she said she just doesnt feel like it often and that shes sorry. I have never been able to get more out of her than that. I've stopped initiating on the premise of a quote i read "why woudl you want to have sex with someone who doesnt want to have sex with you". been almost 40 days now since sexual activity.


Now you are wondering if your wife had an affair 2-3 months before you wrote that, you are snooping, you are worried about the tree guy. At one point, while divorce was a possibility, you were worried about your relationship with your daughter. You say that has gotten much better, but now, your role in her life seems to have faded as a concern, but you're a mess. 

Has TAM helped? It seems as though you were making progress at one point. Are the troubles now any worse than in January? It seems as those the facts aren't much different, but the way you feel about them is much different.


----------



## MEM2020

All this hugging and kissing and snuggling and saying I love you is happening in the context of:
- Boston being so down on the marriage that he is routinely considering the exit 
- B2 keeping a group of potential suitors nice and warm

He's comforting him/her with affection and she's augmenting her marital sexlessness with flirting or worse.

How can she feel safe in a situation where his and her behaviors are wildly, frankly 180 degrees out of synch with reality. 

M2 and I only have two modes:
- Peace and (90-95 percent of the time)
- War 

War isn't always a bad thing. Often it's the ultimate form of communication. And we mostly stick to Geneva convention protocols, so war is mostly civil.

And because of that, Peace is not merely the absence of War. It is warmth, kindness, love, patience and happiness. 

And most important, during Peace there is sometimes conflict. Not combat, but conflict. And that's ok. It's sincere and transparent and typically very brief. 

The one universal aspect of War in MEM land is this: It precludes warmth. Not courtesy. Not surface friendliness. But warmth. And that means there is NO TOUCH. No hugs, no kisses, not even pecks. This means that the normal balmy temperature of 75-80 degrees drops to freezing or below. And that's ok. It allows both partners a calm, quiet and VERY cold environment in which to assess themselves and the situation. The cold creates a bit of urgency. It's beneficial. 

Boston and B2 are in high touch, high warmth mode while each is but a half step from the exit door. That is a level of dishonesty that precludes any real trust. 

And this isn't a situation that's bad but stable. As B2 body begins to scream ever louder for a second child, her extra-marital activities will ramp up. This isn't malice on her part, it's biology. 

Continuing this charade that everything's alright is toxic. 




jld said:


> As John has said, what you are saying would make sense if there were not CSA involved, MEM. Yep, women need to feel respect for their men to trust them, to love them. Men can earn that.
> 
> I think Boston could turn this around, but it would require lots of work on himself first. You are in counseling, right, Boston? That is good. A support group for you while learning about CSA and how to support your wife through it would be very helpful.
> 
> Try to let her vent without taking it personally. Her issues started long before you arrived on the scene.
> 
> And there is a reason you are together. Someone said we match up with people who vibrate on our level (okay, it was something about tuning forks, lol). Something in her draws you, and something in you draws her to you. She wants to be with you. You are the one she wanted, and I think, still wants, to be with.
> 
> Take on the challenge, BB, if you can. If you don't confront the issues in yourself, you will go on to be with someone else with issues like your wife, I'm afraid.


----------



## jld

But your wife doesn't have CSA, right, MEM? Boston's does. John and TAG have been talking about this, but I know I have not paid enough attention. But when I really think about it, it all makes sense in light of that.

Do you not agree with John that this woman cannot give any more to the tree guy than to Boston? And probably less?

Yes, Boston has his own issues. He would be wise to work on them regardless of what happens with his wife. Or I do believe he will take them into the next relationship.


----------



## john117

You can't fight the monster if she won't let you in the arena. It is that simple. 

And she won't let anyone in the arena.


----------



## jld

I know it feels like that in your situation, john. But BB's wife is much younger. Do you not feel like there is hope?


----------



## john117

I'm not projecting my own situation here; when people need support or help you know about it. When they did therapy and it got to the hard part she bailed. 

Start this ball rolling again then see where it leads. It may be harder with younger people due to inexperience dealing with heavy duty issues.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I feel sorry for you. You and J2 have a massive disconnect in terms of values. The 10,000 square foot house comment would be funny if it weren't so sad. There is no house large enough to fill the hole inside J2. 

You can't change her values nor her anger at you for not sharing them....





john117 said:


> I'm not projecting my own situation here; when people need support or help you know about it. When they did therapy and it got to the hard part she bailed.
> 
> Start this ball rolling again then see where it leads. It may be harder with younger people due to inexperience dealing with heavy duty issues.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> I feel sorry for you. You and J2 have a massive disconnect in terms of values. The 10,000 square foot house comment would be funny if it weren't so sad. * There is no house large enough to fill the hole inside J2. *
> 
> You can't change her values nor her anger at you for not sharing them....


That is very sensitive, MEM.

John, so sorry for both of you.


----------



## john117

Feeling sorry doesn't help... In her mind the huge house is a security blanket, nothing more. Pity because I could actually help with what I know but hey, a skeleton is a skeleton is a skeleton.

It's not different than with BB2. Invest on security objects instead of your marriage.


----------



## jld

I am sure you could help her. I am sorry your wife cannot accept your help.

I do think it is different with BB's wife. She is younger and she is not from a totalitarian nation. I believe there is potential, but it hinges on BB's being willing to work on his own issues, too, and probably first.


----------



## john117

I don't see BB as having issues any more than I see myself having issues. If the stars have to align just so to be intimate... Well skrew it and go back to the village and so on... I'm pretty due the guy Duck married died from cirrhosis . Duck's grandfather taught me backgammon when he owned the village cafe'. How bad can it be?

People have issues all the time. They resolve them or ignore them. If they so desire. BB2 is quickly headed into losing the war to win a battle, much like J2 is. CSA or BPD, pick your TLA's.


----------



## jld

There's a thought for you, going back to marry a girl from your village. I bet that would be comforting.

Maybe I'll suggest to dh, that if I die unexpectedly, he go back to France to look for a wife. She would speak his language, understand all his customs, his mother would be happy  . . .


----------



## john117

Summer of 1976, I was 16, Duck 15, playing Stairway to Heaven on the record player and enough alcohol to drown a fraternity in... (*) Ah. Memories. 

(*) most every family makes their own wine and many their own liquors incl. the village specialty, a cherry cordial type wine. I got drunk on my 16th birthday with everyone around. We liberated some heavy duty liquor and proceeded to get smashed while mom and dad and so on were in the other side of the house. I remember flashes as mom carried me to my room - no small feat - and later I found my enterprising brother had taken a roll of film of mom carrying me up... Mom took it all in stride and never mentioned anything.

That was 38 years ago - I'm turning 54 next week lolz. I still have the pictures.

BB, in case you're wondering, I mention all this to remind you that you are who you are regardless of BB2's plots or actions. Self worth and self esteem don't get impacted. If my self esteem didn't plunge to T2fio levels when mom found me and Duck, ehem, exploring,it never will. That was my first encounter with an underwire bra incidentally.


----------



## jld

Your mom could carry a 16 yo young man? Wow!

Dh's mother makes her own liquor, too. And they make cidre every year. Grow most of their own vegetables, too, and raise sheep, chickens, rabbits, etc. Good ole village life. 

Happy Birthday early! 

BB, I still think counseling for you would be a good idea.


----------



## jld

BB, I found an article that may be helpful, though it is geared toward dating and not already married people:

Tips for Dating a Woman Who Has Been Sexually Abused - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com

_ Above all, be patient. It may at times feel like you're bending over backward to cater to her emotions, but if you truly wish to pursue a meaningful, healthy relationship, you'll have to be patient. Frustration, anger and resentment on your part will only serve to add to her distress, drive a deeper wedge between you, and possibly destroy whatever progress you've already made in becoming close to her. You must be dedicated to being there for your partner and offering the support she needs, or your relationship may have the potential to cause even more damage. She's experienced betrayal and humiliation on the deepest level, and if she senses or experiences more hurt from you, it will only strengthen her reluctance and withdrawal._


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Jld for as much as you advocate open communication I'm surprised at your unwavering support for BB's dishonest approach. It's almost like you yourself are in a fog. Do you routinely have a hard time admitting when you're wrong?


----------



## Anon Pink

WorkingOnMe said:


> Jld for as much as you advocate open communication I'm surprised at your unwavering support for BB's dishonest approach. It's almost like you yourself are in a fog. Do you routinely have a hard time admitting when you're wrong?


But she's not wrong. BB hasn't always been very open. He is waiting for signs from his wife to make a move. JLD has always advocated for transparency.

Tax season is over, I always wonder if all CPA's go on some wild drinking binge on the 20th. Inquiring minds want to know WOM?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Nope we just decompress for a while. 

I get the distinct impression she wants him to pretend everything is ok. Support her even though he doesn't want to. MEM tries to get him to be honest pointing out that his cuddling when he's angry and suspicious is wrong but she pushes back against that. Showing his anger would be transparent so why doesn't she advocate that.


----------



## FizzBomb

Anon Pink said:


> But she's not wrong. BB hasn't always been very open. He is waiting for signs from his wife to make a move. JLD has always advocated for transparency.
> 
> Tax season is over, I always wonder if all CPA's go on some wild drinking binge on the 20th. Inquiring minds want to know WOM?


:lol:


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> I feel sorry for you. You and J2 have a massive disconnect in terms of values. The 10,000 square foot house comment would be funny if it weren't so sad. There is no house large enough to fill the hole inside J2.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't change her values nor her anger at you for not sharing them....



You're missing the point here.

Her desire for material wealth is to have tangible accomplishments. A Taj Mahal if you wish. Do all materially inclined people have holes to fill? Nope.

She grew up in such houses, with servants, tutors, the whole 9 yard. Think Minister level public office. 

Material possessions have always brought her joy. In my case only if the box says Nikon so....

I enjoy material things too mostly because I grew up poor. Unlike her, I value what I do with what I buy. I prefer to create - mostly photography landscaping or otherwise interact with what I buy - music. 

Neither of is is spiritual to any significant extent; we don't entertain a lot, etc etc. 

The gap is more an ambition gap, not a values gap. I'm content with my Mini S. She drives an x-3. She would love an x-5 or x-6 (BMW SUV). She's always "can you do better". I'm always "is it worth my while to be better".


----------



## jld

I do advocate for transparency. BB has said he has tried that, but feels it hasn't worked. I urged him to do it, anyway.

He loves her, WOM. He doesn't want to leave her, or he would have done it already.

If he wants to stay with her, let's see how he can do that in a constructive way.

I read a little on CSA and adult women today, and what I read suggests that BB may need to take a step back from advocating for his own needs, at least at first, and be supportive of his wife's efforts to come to terms with her issues. When she can do that, she will start to be able to meet his.

It is sacrificial love, WOM. It takes really and truly putting his needs on hold. But if BB wants to stay with her, and eventually have his needs met, in a healthy, non-coercive way, it may be his best shot.

From the article:

_ Women who have been abused can heal, move on, and form healthy, happy sexual relationships. A large factor in this is the man involved in the relationship. If you're involved with a woman who has suffered sexual abuse, you can go a long way toward giving her the support she needs to heal._


----------



## Anon Pink

WorkingOnMe said:


> Nope we just decompress for a while.
> 
> I get the distinct impression she wants him to pretend everything is ok. Support her even though he doesn't want to. MEM tries to get him to be honest pointing out that his cuddling when he's angry and suspicious is wrong but she pushes back against that. Showing his anger would be transparent so why doesn't she advocate that.


I suspect because her philosophy is centered around her own experiences, much like everyone else's.

She wants him to be open and honest and love his wife enough to make her feel safe, loved and able to open up to him. In a perfect world, that would indeed be the best course of action.

I think the part that JLD misses is that she is closed off and is very self centered. This is not a woman who shares either her feelings, her love, and most frustrating of all her body.

I think that this kind of woman just doesn't compute for JLD. Had JLD the opportunity to get to know my ex psycho-b!tch SIL she would be disabused from that notion.

JLD comes from a place of love and acceptance and she bases all her posts on that.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Sacrificial love? That's not transparent. In his situation it's dishonest.


----------



## Anon Pink

I don't see it as dishonest, but I do see it as unnecessary martyrdom.

I just don't see Mrs Boston leaving her comfort zone and having to think about painful things on her own. Not from the way Boston has described her and not from what I know about CSA. Keeping people at arms length in the rule for safety.


----------



## jld

AP, do you feel like she is just a lost cause? That BB should leave her?

What do you think could have changed your ex-SIL, if anything? 

You're right, that I always seem to hold out hope that love and understanding can change people.


----------



## Anon Pink

Don't ask about that B,tch. I have nothing good to say. I should write up my brothers story just to show people what nasty piece of work she is. She fought my brother tooth and nail for the house, "we need a home for the boys... Well she just moved out with her new husband leaving all three boys scrambling to pay the mortgage so they can keep a home for themselves! Youngest two are still in college. She is evil incarnate!!!! 

No, I don't think he should divorce. I think he should decide what he wants and pursue that with everything he has. If he wants a happy marriage with a great sex life, he has to force his wife to deal with some issues and he has to have strong boundaries and follow MEM's advice for dealing with low empathy capable women.


----------



## MEM2020

I have a couple comments for folks who view anyone whose experienced any form of CSA as having diplomatic immunity. 

One: While CSA survivors have a specific reason for having sexual issues, their conduct is remarkably similar to regular folks who marry people they have minimal attraction for. 

There is a large segment of humanity who either:
- Have fairly little interest in sex outside mating or
- Are not able to attract the type of people they are attracted to who are ALSO good marriage material (so they make a rational choice and marry someone they can tolerate sex with long enough to make babies)
- Are wired to hunt, and once they've captured their prey, their desire shuts off

CSA survivors are spread across those categories just as non CSA survivors are. 

But the main theme with all these folks is the same: Their willingness to have sex is inversely proportional to the degree of relationship stability they achieve. 

While it's important to try to save a marriage, it doesn't take precedence over your long term mental health. 

My guess is that B2's avoidance of therapy is not a function of laziness or weakness. She's avoiding it because she believes therapy will not help her feel desire/love for Boston. She herself doesn't believe that after CSA therapy her feelings will change. 

And worse, she likely assumes that if she really said how she felt in therapy, the counselor would agree it was hopeless. She married the wrong person. 

B2 does not strike me as a sympathetic figure. 

One last comment. Even diplomats, if they behave badly enough, find themselves expelled from their host country. 





Anon Pink said:


> Don't ask about that B,tch. I have nothing good to say. I should write up my brothers story just to show people what nasty piece of work she is. She fought my brother tooth and nail for the house, "we need a home for the boys... Well she just moved out with her new husband leaving all three boys scrambling to pay the mortgage so they can keep a home for themselves! Youngest two are still in college. She is evil incarnate!!!!
> 
> No, I don't think he should divorce. I think he should decide what he wants and pursue that with everything he has. If he wants a happy marriage with a great sex life, he has to force his wife to deal with some issues and he has to have strong boundaries and follow MEM's advice for dealing with low empathy capable women.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> I don't see it as dishonest, but I do see it as unnecessary martyrdom.
> 
> I just don't see Mrs Boston leaving her comfort zone and having to think about painful things on her own. Not from the way Boston has described her and not from what I know about CSA. Keeping people at arms length in the rule for safety.



And to think some of us have advocated that since page 2 of this thread...

You can't help someone who is willing to sacrifice all notions of normalcy to avoid intimacy.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> I have a couple comments for folks who view anyone whose experienced any form of CSA as having diplomatic immunity.
> 
> One: While CSA survivors have a specific reason for having sexual issues, their conduct is remarkably similar to regular folks who marry people they have minimal attraction for.
> 
> There is a large segment of humanity who either:
> - Have fairly little interest in sex outside mating or
> - Are not able to attract the type of people they are attracted to who are ALSO good marriage material (so they make a rational choice and marry someone they can tolerate sex with long enough to make babies)
> - Are wired to hunt, and once they've captured their prey, their desire shuts off
> 
> CSA survivors are spread across those categories just as non CSA survivors are.
> 
> But the main theme with all these folks is the same: Their willingness to have sex is inversely proportional to the degree of relationship stability they achieve.
> 
> While it's important to try to save a marriage, it doesn't take precedence over your long term mental health.
> 
> My guess is that B2's avoidance of therapy is not a function of laziness or weakness. She's avoiding it because she believes therapy will not help her feel desire/love for Boston. She herself doesn't believe that after CSA therapy her feelings will change.
> 
> And worse, she likely assumes that if she really said how she felt in therapy, the counselor would agree it was hopeless. She married the wrong person.
> 
> B2 does not strike me as a sympathetic figure.
> 
> One last comment. Even diplomats, if they behave badly enough, find themselves expelled from their host country.



Good insight. I wonderif she did marry the wrong person. I pessimistically think it, but I wonder if the counselor would have arrived to this? The counselor kept aging we were normal. Tgat we both had elements of trauma and upbringing that would surface at some point through our relationship . She thought it was healthy, I just think we didn't finish the progress. '
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> No, I don't think he should divorce. I think he should decide what he wants and pursue that with everything he has. If he wants a happy marriage with a great sex life, he has to force his wife to deal with some issues and he has to have strong boundaries and follow MEM's advice for dealing with low empathy capable women.



You can't force anyone to do anything or place boundaries, all you will accomplish at the end is to make the divorce process more lively. 

Low empathy often is accompanied by stubbornness or unwillingness to compromise. That makes all the difference in the world.


----------



## john117

I came to the same conclusion about 80 pages ago. The two keywords were "CSA" and "no interest in therapy".

You may recall I pondered why someone (J2) is willing to sacrifice some incredible opportunities post retirement (travel and live rent free in one of Europe's more interesting cities plus the pooled resources of two people) or put up with a monumentally annoying person (me) in order to avoid intimacy. Now you know. 

CSA or BPD be damned BB is where I am at year 29 or 30 of my marriage - except I had 25 normal years - and even threatening divorce or divorcing won't address the problem or make her see reality. In her eyes she will become a martyr for standing up to her point if view. And she will do exactly that in her next relationship.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Good insight. I wonderif she did marry the wrong person. I pessimistically think it, but I wonder if the counselor would have arrived to this? The counselor kept aging we were normal. Tgat we both had elements of trauma and upbringing that would surface at some point through our relationship . She thought it was healthy, I just think we didn't finish the progress. '
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BB, couldn't you keep going to counseling on your own, with this same person? She has at least some exposure to your wife.

And if she is saying that both of you had trauma, it could benefit you, too, regardless of what happens with your wife.


----------



## john117

Been there done that jld. All it will do is get you to accept who the other person is. In BPD land it's radical acceptance. Not how I wanted to approach the issue. 

You won't learn anything to help you change the other person. Just techniques to adapt yourself to the new reality. The moment you do that you become T2fio. 

That was my take and that's why I was, ehem, not so welcome.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> Been there done that jld. All it will do is get you to accept who the other person is. In BPD land it's radical acceptance. Not how I wanted to approach the issue.
> 
> You won't learn anything to help you change the other person. Just techniques to adapt yourself to the new reality. The moment you do that you become T2fio.
> 
> That was my take and that's why I was, ehem, not so welcome.


But that may be the best result. I sense that BB sticks around because he is hoping she changes. If he accepts that she won't, that may be the kick in the backside necessary for him to leave (for both of them).


----------



## jld

Well, if the counselor said they both have issues, I think it would only benefit BB to explore his. Why was he attracted to her? How has he lasted this long? Why is he still drawn to her? To me, these would be helpful issues to explore.

If he ends up on his own, he doesn't want to find himself with the exact same kind of person. A lot of us, for whatever reason, have a pattern of being attracted to the same type of person. If that type isn't working, we may want to figure out how to change it.


----------



## Trickster

Tall Average Guy said:


> But that may be the best result. I sense that BB sticks around because he is hoping she changes. If he accepts that she won't, that may be the kick in the backside necessary for him to leave (for both of them).


BB will accept the reality and stay...He, like many of us, will just make the best of it...We may get some sex to keep us from straying, but compliance sex is all that it may be...BB has to reach his breaking point.


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> But that may be the best result. I sense that BB sticks around because he is hoping she changes. If he accepts that she won't, that may be the kick in the backside necessary for him to leave (for both of them).



NormalPeople (tm) change only when there is a benefit (not as likely) or risk (more likely). This is typical psych 101 material. 

NonNormalPeople (tm) do not think this way. If I remember my movies, in Laurence of Arabia the Beduins tied their own legs to stay in place and martyr themselves instead of regrouping or fleeing. The strategic impact and benefit of their sacrifice was trivial compared to their loss of life without accomplishing anything but to make a point. 

This level of heroics is par for the course on the battlefield but not on the bedroom. Yet the B2's and J2's et al deploy such heroics daily.


----------



## jld

So you feel like he should just leave her, john?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> So you feel like he should just leave her, john?



He should do what any cardiologist would prescribe - a stress test. 

If she passes and he receives any other benefits from the marriage worth staying - financial or social or .... - thn stay else bail. 

If she fails then there is hope that there is a breaking point beyond which she won't go. 

The stress test is to engage in serious tit for tat behavior with her all the way to warfare for a few months. If she tolerates it she passes. If she breaks down she fails.

Running the test is the hard part. Think of a 180 where you're fairly vocal about things and make an issue out of everything. Pretty exhausting and immature I know... But so is boot camp.


----------



## jld

My heart could not take that, john.


----------



## Trickster

john117 said:


> He should do what any cardiologist would prescribe - a stress test.
> 
> If she passes and he receives any other benefits from the marriage worth staying - financial or social or .... - thn stay else bail.
> 
> If she fails then there is hope that there is a breaking point beyond which she won't go.
> 
> The stress test is to engage in serious tit for tat behavior with her all the way to warfare for a few months. If she tolerates it she passes. If she breaks down she fails.
> 
> Running the test is the hard part. Think of a 180 where you're fairly vocal about things and make an issue out of everything. Pretty exhausting and immature I know... But so is boot camp.



This is about what I did... I was overly vocal about EVERYTHING...it was exhausting... I was acting selfish, immature, and crazy with my expectations.The wife didn't even blink...

"you want to spend Saturdays hiking? Sure go for it."

" you want to go to happy hour with some buddy's? go ahead."

" you want to volunteer at the animal shelter? OK"

You want more passionate sex? I'll try, even though you know it's too much"

Open marriage? that doesn't bother me, I don't care for sex anyway...go for it"...


I understand the stress test. That just works for a normal person. 

BB wants to stay married. No matter how much it hurts...


----------



## john117

jld said:


> My heart could not take that, john.



Congratulations. Your NormalPeople (tm) card is in the mail 

I often see J2 act as a cornered and threatened 'animal' that knows no other way to respond but attack. I have offered IC, MC, FC, etc. All she wants is to deal with temporary symptoms but not be accountable long term for her actions. 

I have gone orders of magnitude deeper into the muck than any husband would have the right to go. And I'm still holding out hope she may see the light (and the Cubs may still win ). At this point it's more mental hospice care for her than anything else. 

Call it stupidity, love, responsibility... I don't know. Not that it matters any more.


----------



## jld

I know, I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I am sorry for what you are going through, John. I can only imagine how difficult it is to live with someone with mental illness. 

I guess I just am not seeing CSA in the same way as mental illness. From what that article I read said, there is hope for CSA. But it takes a lot of support. The article said the man, specifically, is key.

Did anyone read that article? I thought it was really good.


----------



## BostonBruins32

That stress test makes sense but 2 things:
a) sounds like a VERY VERY bad environment for B3. B3 is behaving 150% better over the past month or 2. Things in the house are palpably calmer. B3 sees mom hugging dad. B3 sees dad and mom sitting on couch. B3 lives for weekend mornings where she can climb into bed at 7am and lay with us for a few minutes. 

b)Because I do not understand the CSA thing completely (all i can do is read and make assumptions), I am not sure this approach does anything other than build up wall of distrust and secrecy. increased distrust and secrecy.

Still a very interesting thought. 

My issues/trauma that the counselor referred to were my parents divorce (yep you can all sniff out the impact that has on me). And my father wasnt abusive or mean, but rather somewhat neglectful. Sort of not fully interested or vested in my life for much of my childhood and youngadulthood, and even now. We dug into this during counseling. I also snooped out messaging from my wife to her friend from months ago that said something like "i think BB needs someone to talk to. i think he has some unresolved issues with his father". Yes and no. I have talked with her and my mom and others about it. And yes it still hurts sometimes. And yes it likely has something to do with how I parent and carry myself. 

To the point on going to IC. I'm not sure. I sort of want to do this but havent pulled the trigger. Part of me wants to learn to "deal" with how she is, part of me wants to see her change. If I went to IC, would this empower her to feel like its HIS problem and HE needs to figure it out? Becuase thats what how I think she'd react. The only thing counseling could likely give me is a clear head to make a stay or go decision. Rather than stay and just let my imagination run wild(due to lack of her internal exprssion to me)


----------



## jld

Thanks for sharing that, BB. It sounds like you both are pretty sensitive to what might be going on with the other.

I do think she loves you. Just her saying that says love to me.

BB, rarely in marriages is it only one person with issues. I think counseling would lead to a lot more than a stay or go decision. You could work on lots of things with a counselor. You will become more self-aware, and more confident. I really encourage you to do this.


----------



## john117

Well, there's mental illness and there's mental illness. We're not talking "one flew over the cuckoos nest" level illness here. Not that it matters.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
WRT B3, I see your dilemma. It's good for her to be in a warm, happy house. And it will be bad for her sense of reality if that all turns out to be an illusion. 

In the meantime, consider this: B4 is such a priority to B2 that she melted down after being at a baby shower. Maybe melted down twice on this subject IIRC. 

And yet, what changed after you directly told her that B4 is off the table? You provided her a very short list of baby show stoppers. And how has she responded? 

I expect her to wait until October and then tell you: procreate or separate/divorce. Clear, concise and determined. By then she will have identified your target replacement, and will quickly accept whatever your choice is. 

That's how biology works. Consider it in reverse. You were so overpowered by love/desire for her that you have tolerated a marital landscape that is far colder and harsher than expected. 

Recreational and procreational love heroin are remarkably similar. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> That stress test makes sense but 2 things:
> a) sounds like a VERY VERY bad environment for B3. B3 is behaving 150% better over the past month or 2. Things in the house are palpably calmer. B3 sees mom hugging dad. B3 sees dad and mom sitting on couch. B3 lives for weekend mornings where she can climb into bed at 7am and lay with us for a few minutes.
> 
> b)Because I do not understand the CSA thing completely (all i can do is read and make assumptions), I am not sure this approach does anything other than build up wall of distrust and secrecy. increased distrust and secrecy.
> 
> Still a very interesting thought.
> 
> My issues/trauma that the counselor referred to were my parents divorce (yep you can all sniff out the impact that has on me). And my father wasnt abusive or mean, but rather somewhat neglectful. Sort of not fully interested or vested in my life for much of my childhood and youngadulthood, and even now. We dug into this during counseling. I also snooped out messaging from my wife to her friend from months ago that said something like "i think BB needs someone to talk to. i think he has some unresolved issues with his father". Yes and no. I have talked with her and my mom and others about it. And yes it still hurts sometimes. And yes it likely has something to do with how I parent and carry myself.
> 
> To the point on going to IC. I'm not sure. I sort of want to do this but havent pulled the trigger. Part of me wants to learn to "deal" with how she is, part of me wants to see her change. If I went to IC, would this empower her to feel like its HIS problem and HE needs to figure it out? Becuase thats what how I think she'd react. The only thing counseling could likely give me is a clear head to make a stay or go decision. Rather than stay and just let my imagination run wild(due to lack of her internal exprssion to me)


----------



## BostonBruins32

JLD.. 
I read her comments about marriage counseling different. At the time she made it very much sound like I needed help. Not we needed help. Her comments to me and to her friend support this. 

Again, she didnt stay in it long enough to face her own issues. instead she bailed quickly. I think this stuff is telling of one's character. Many women I know suck at saying "im sorry" or "i was wrong". But our marriage was on something of a life line at that point, and she still couldnt confront her issues or her wrong doings. That screams a lot to me. And it really hurts, because its her saying a lot without saying a lot.


----------



## john117

BB, I know my wife better than any therapist will ever know her. I know exactly what is going on inside her head. It has not helped come any closer to a solution. 

I have no unresolved issues. I've lived on my own since 17, great parents, etc. 

The kids are caught into this unfortunately. It's not going to get better in 5-10 years. So B3 will get a few more good years and then what? 

My kids came out relatively ok. One completely skipped childhood and went straight from 13 to 30. That's the therapist's view. The other suffered the brunt of J2's ire, spent 3 years in IC and FC and is relatively fine. She put all her emotions into her work and that's it.

What will happen is that staying the course will increase resentment to the point where ether one person gives up (T2fio) or both parties con tub their arguments without any progress (me). There's no happy path lined with yellow bricks and adorned by singing munchkins. 

The stress test can be visible or not to B3. Many times my girls told me - and I quote - to divorce the b!tch but sided with me once reality sunk in.

I wish there was a better way but I don't see it. My last remaining hope is that J2 will go off the deep end and crash then seek help. For now it's the married equivalent of Yugoslavia.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> WRT B3, I see your dilemma. It's good for her to be in a warm, happy house. And it will be bad for her sense of reality if that all turns out to be an illusion.
> 
> In the meantime, consider this: B4 is such a priority to B2 that she melted down after being at a baby shower. Maybe melted down twice on this subject IIRC.
> 
> And yet, what changed after you directly told her that B4 is off the table? You provided her a very short list of baby show stoppers. And how has she responded?
> 
> I expect her to wait until October and then tell you: procreate or separate/divorce. Clear, concise and determined. By then she will have identified your target replacement, and will quickly accept whatever your choice is.
> 
> That's how biology works. Consider it in reverse. You were so overpowered by love/desire for her that you have tolerated a marital landscape that is far colder and harsher than expected.
> 
> Recreational and procreational love heroin are remarkably similar.


Maybe. I'm not sure. I saw a few months ago an article (corner of my eye) she was reading about, paraphrasing here, "why i'm ok with being a one child mom". shortly after B3, I was the one who wanted B4 sooner rather than later. B2 said no way in hell. No way in hell for a while. B3 was a handful and she was battling post partum stuff. she has defended for a few years now the idea of having one child, despite comments from people saying "so when is number 2".

her october plan to impregnate is more idealistic vs on the schedule. at least this is how she makes it sound. There are days where she says 'i cant imagine another child..' in the heat of a stressful B3 meltdown. 

You have some years of experience on me, but I respectfully disagree that B4 is as heavily a weighted issue as you say it might be. Again, I could be very wrong and totally respect your angle on it. Its not outlandish, I just don't think its the case here.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> JLD..
> I read her comments about marriage counseling different. At the time she made it very much sound like I needed help. Not we needed help. Her comments to me and to her friend support this.
> 
> Again, she didnt stay in it long enough to face her own issues. instead she bailed quickly. I think this stuff is telling of one's character. Many women I know suck at saying "im sorry" or "i was wrong". But our marriage was on something of a life line at that point, and she still couldnt confront her issues or her wrong doings. That screams a lot to me. And it really hurts, because its her saying a lot without saying a lot.


She may think it is you. Still wouldn't change that counseling could indeed help you.

A lot of times people who are messed up will blame the other person. It is always the other person's fault in their minds. It can still help the other person to look at their own issues. Again, we all have them.

And remember the card she gave you, thanking you for her patience, and admitting she is not always right. I think that is significant. And I think you earned that by your kindness and understanding, but maybe also by your honest communication with her, too.

I told you once that I have a friend who would not own her own control issues for a long time. Her husband was very patient, but also held her feet to the fire. He did not hold back, but was not emotional about it. He loved her, and wanted the marriage to last.

Eventually, my friend changed. She started to accept what he was saying, because, imo, she felt safe enough to do so. She could finally let down her guard enough for his words to penetrate her.

It is still hard for her to admit when she is wrong. She is pretty headstrong. But I think he likes that in a way, too.

Well, BB, my own pov is that you love her, and she loves you, in whatever limited way she is able to. Obviously you are the only one to know what you can put up with. But it is hard for me to give up hope on your marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

The tit for tat is immature. 

The 180 itself is the ultimate tool for communicating at a core emotional level. 




john117 said:


> He should do what any cardiologist would prescribe - a stress test.
> 
> If she passes and he receives any other benefits from the marriage worth staying - financial or social or .... - thn stay else bail.
> 
> If she fails then there is hope that there is a breaking point beyond which she won't go.
> 
> The stress test is to engage in serious tit for tat behavior with her all the way to warfare for a few months. If she tolerates it she passes. If she breaks down she fails.
> 
> Running the test is the hard part. Think of a 180 where you're fairly vocal about things and make an issue out of everything. Pretty exhausting and immature I know... But so is boot camp.


----------



## BostonBruins32

John,

totally fair. peace now for a bomb later is not fair to B3. 

funny about your child saying divorce this b*tch. Last night we were at my B2's parents for dinner. B2's mom was ranting to me a few times about how much of an attitude b2 has. I honestly forgot what the issue was but B2 snaps back at her parents aggressively. She bit her head off over something stupid and B2's mom was like "I dont know how the hell you deal with that. does she need to be a bi tch sometimes?". I just said shes not a *****, probably just a long day. and I continued off to help B3 learn how to swing a wiffle ball bat. I have heard sympathy trips from B3's mom, father, bff, and brother. I always defender her (you hear that blonde?) and change subject quick.


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> You can't force anyone to do anything or place boundaries, all you will accomplish at the end is to make the divorce process more lively.
> 
> Low empathy often is accompanied by stubbornness or unwillingness to compromise. That makes all the difference in the world.


That is a given. But, just like being married to an alcoholic calls for detachment and boundaries, Boston can use the same technique. Otherwise known as, "here is what I want and expect, get help or get out."

John, you have given up and are now just biding your time. I don't understand why you seem to be, and maybe I'm reading your posts wrong, advocating that Boston do the same?


----------



## jld

That is so sad to me, BB, just hearing that Mrs. BB's mom would treat her that way. At least she has you to love her. 

About not wanting a kid right away . . . there were four years between our first two. Motherhood can be such a shock. I wasn't ready to add another kid for a long time.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon,

this is why i take everyone's comments with a calculated grain of salt. everyone has an angle. Everyone's angle is based on thier experience. John, MEM, Anon, JLD, etc etc all have great insights. Some I have to filter, other is directly relevant. Even T2's insight was helpful. Just kidding, no it wasnt.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> That is so sad to me, BB, just hearing that Mrs. BB's mom would treat her that way. At least she has you to love her.
> 
> About not wanting a kid right away . . . there were four years between our first two. Motherhood can be such a shock. I wasn't ready to add another kid for a long time.


B2 is mean to her mom. They are like best friends. But she is so mean to her sometimes. B2's mom is mean to b2's fathers mom too. It's a crazy dynamic
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> John,
> 
> totally fair. peace now for a bomb later is not fair to B3.
> 
> funny about your child saying divorce this b*tch. Last night we were at my B2's parents for dinner. B2's mom was ranting to me a few times about how much of an attitude b2 has. I honestly forgot what the issue was but B2 snaps back at her parents aggressively. She bit her head off over something stupid and B2's mom was like "I dont know how the hell you deal with that. does she need to be a bi tch sometimes?". I just said shes not a *****, probably just a long day. and I continued off to help B3 learn how to swing a wiffle ball bat. I have heard sympathy trips from B3's mom, father, bff, and brother. I always defender her (you hear that blonde?) and change subject quick.


Well there's some insight right there!

If your own mother takes delight in publicly humiliating you then how can you trust anyone with your deepest darkest fears and feelings?

You did the right thing by defending your wife, even if she was over the top in her reaction to her mother.

So you have a narcissistic type MIL and a daughter who suffered a sexual trauma in childhood. Sounds exactly like what I went through.

Honestly, if your mother treats you like sh!t, and you have any backbone at all, you learn to fight back pretty damn quickly.

Luckily I had a father who I respected and loved a great deal who got my mother to back off most of the time. But it sounds like your FIL is pretty passive.

Boundaries! You go back to therapy alone. You insist she attend therapy as a condition for discussing more children. If nothing else, working out her lousy relationship with her mother will help her be a better mother herself.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> B2 is mean to her mom. They are like best friends. But she is so mean to her sometimes. B2's mom is mean to b2's fathers mom too. It's a crazy dynamic
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like lots of issues there. And she learned that interaction from her mom.

Sounds like counseling could be really, really helpful. But you would probably have to be the leader, seeking it for yourself first.

Somebody has to break the cycle, right? Why not you?


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> The tit for tat is immature.
> 
> 
> 
> The 180 itself is the ultimate tool for communicating at a core emotional level.



Except when it doesn't work because one is dealing with NonNormalPeople (tm) and all assumptions are out the window.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
You know her best. I have some bias because B2 reminds me of M2 in a lot of ways. And one child would have been a deal breaker for M2. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> Maybe. I'm not sure. I saw a few months ago an article (corner of my eye) she was reading about, paraphrasing here, "why i'm ok with being a one child mom". shortly after B3, I was the one who wanted B4 sooner rather than later. B2 said no way in hell. No way in hell for a while. B3 was a handful and she was battling post partum stuff. she has defended for a few years now the idea of having one child, despite comments from people saying "so when is number 2".
> 
> her october plan to impregnate is more idealistic vs on the schedule. at least this is how she makes it sound. There are days where she says 'i cant imagine another child..' in the heat of a stressful B3 meltdown.
> 
> You have some years of experience on me, but I respectfully disagree that B4 is as heavily a weighted issue as you say it might be. Again, I could be very wrong and totally respect your angle on it. Its not outlandish, I just don't think its the case here.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> That is a given. But, just like being married to an alcoholic calls for detachment and boundaries, Boston can use the same technique. Otherwise known as, "here is what I want and expect, get help or get out."
> 
> 
> 
> John, you have given up and are now just biding your time. I don't understand why you seem to be, and maybe I'm reading your posts wrong, advocating that Boston do the same?



You're indeed reading my posts wrong.

My suggestion is for BB to determine what is the outcome short and long term and act accordingly. That's where the stress test comes into play. 

Detachment does not work if she does not care. I'm speaking from experience.

Boundaries only help preserve the status quo. Set a boundary of sex 3x a week with her and it will hold as well as the Maginot Line in WW2.

The consequences are irrelevant for such people.


----------



## MEM2020

A 180 is colder than a 180 + tit for tat. 

If your spouse is ok with a 180 open ended, they are either getting their warmth elsewhere or they have no feelings for you. 



john117 said:


> Except when it doesn't work because one is dealing with NonNormalPeople (tm) and all assumptions are out the window.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> You know her best. I have some bias because B2 reminds me of M2 in a lot of ways. And one child would have been a deal breaker for M2.


This is the truth. We are all just speculating. You are the one who knows her.

My bias is that dh loves me more than I love myself. He would just not ever give up on me. His understanding and patience has been tremendously healing, and has provided great stability. I certainly did not get that from my parents.

We are truly all coming from our own perspective, BB.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> You're indeed reading my posts wrong.
> 
> My suggestion is for BB to determine what is the outcome short and long term and act accordingly. That's where the stress test comes into play.
> 
> Detachment does not work if she does not care. I'm speaking from experience.
> 
> *Boundaries only help preserve the status quo*. Set a boundary of sex 3x a week with her and it will hold as well as the Maginot Line in WW2.
> 
> The consequences are irrelevant for such people.


I do feel concerned when I hear, usually men, brag about how they have made the woman in their life have sex a certain number of times a week by threatening divorce if she doesn't. Often these women are economically dependent on them. 

Do they feel proud of themselves? Do they feel powerful? And I wonder how loving that sex is, given that she has consequences for not complying with his demands. Do those men even care if it's authentic?


----------



## Openminded

Who knows how far back that mother/daughter dynamic goes in your wife's family -- maybe generations -- but it would obviously be helpful to break that cycle so your daughter doesn't repeat it. The problem is that not everyone wants to change or will make the effort to change. Because it's definitely not easy. Do you feel if she thinks you will end the marriage over it that she will change?


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> A 180 is colder than a 180 + tit for tat.
> 
> 
> 
> If your spouse is ok with a 180 open ended, they are either getting their warmth elsewhere or they have no feelings for you.



Colder but more uncomfortable due to the constancy of the tit for tat. 

As far as feelings go, tell me something I didn't know . That's back to NonNormalPeople (tm) territory. At 30 feelings are important but not as much at 60.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I do feel concerned when I hear, usually men, brag about how they have made the woman in their life have sex a certain number of times a week by threatening divorce if she doesn't. Often these women are economically dependent on them.



It's just an example. As I have pointed out my own premonitions of what's coming have little concern about sex.. YMMV.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Openminded said:


> Who knows how far back that mother/daughter dynamic goes in your wife's family -- maybe generations -- but it would obviously be helpful to break that cycle so your daughter doesn't repeat it. The problem is that not everyone wants to change or will make the effort to change. Because it's definitely not easy. Do you feel if she thinks you will end the marriage over it that she will change?



I dotn think she thinks i will end it. Again, my boundaries likely suck. 

Oddly enough, i'm fully confident she will end it if i have a hiccup large enough. Again, if I gained 30lbs, made $40k less per year, or fought back (tit for tat) harder during disagreements, I think she could see any of these as ammo to leave. I could be way off base, I just know she pulled a "need space" card once. A stay at home mom, felt confident to pull that card once. Anything is possible.


----------



## Openminded

It sounds like it's necessary for both of you to believe you will end it. Sometimes that's the only thing that will change the dynamic.


----------



## BostonBruins32

sorry i should continue. If she left me because i made less money, or gained weight, or we had one fight, I would be very aware that there was a bigger issue at hand. 

So it would hurt, but I woudl be fully aware that I'm not the scum of the earth. 

I realize it sounds like i think very lowly of myself. My marriage confidence sucks. My real life (outside of marriage) confidence is different.


----------



## jld

Our closest relationships reveal our deepest selves. 

IRL counseling could really help you.


----------



## john117

I frustrated Dr. Jamie for months - nothing more fun than a stubborn behavioral / clinical psych going against a cognitive /,experimental psych. 

The outcome was quite clear. I did not seem to have any unresolved issues from childhood. Only red flag was an overall lack of maturity (thanks Jamie, Blue Cross really got it's money's worth) and overly cynical / pessimistic attitude in life (duh). Tend to overthink (duh). 

Other than that I'm as pristine as they get


----------



## Catherine602

john117 said:


> I frustrated Dr. Jamie for months - nothing more fun than a stubborn behavioral / clinical psych going against a cognitive /,experimental psych.
> 
> The outcome was quite clear. I did not seem to have any unresolved issues from childhood. Only red flag was an overall lack of maturity (thanks Jamie, Blue Cross really got it's money's worth) and overly cynical / pessimistic attitude in life (duh). Tend to overthink (duh).
> 
> Other than that I'm as pristine as they get


John I have to tell you that I love love love your posts. I've never laughed so hard so consistently from any other poster. Thanks.


----------



## Openminded

BostonBruins32 said:


> sorry i should continue. If she left me because i made less money, or gained weight, or we had one fight, I would be very aware that there was a bigger issue at hand.
> 
> So it would hurt, but I woudl be fully aware that I'm not the scum of the earth.
> 
> I realize it sounds like i think very lowly of myself. My marriage confidence sucks. My real life (outside of marriage) confidence is different.


Marriage is a much harder road than I thought it was when I took that first step in 1967. I'm far more cynical now. Of course you aren't the scum of the earth. You're someone who wants a good marriage. Getting that good marriage is the problem. She doesn't want to do the work counseling requires?


----------



## MEM2020

Agreed - that doesn't work. 

That said if you've cleaned up your side of the street as much as possible with regard to attraction, and your spouse refuses to communicate (either with or without counseling) you're looking at these options:
1. Accept another person forcing celibacy on you 
2. Outsource deceptively and with partners you might become attached to or vice versa
3. Outsource deceptively with professionals
4. Outsource openly with partners you might end up loving or vice versa 
5. Outsource openly with professionals 
6. Divorce

IMO option (5) is the least bad of these choices. 

It's utterly fascinating to me that the folks on both sides of this situation typically think divorce is preferable to option (5). 




jld said:


> I do feel concerned when I hear, usually men, brag about how they have made the woman in their life have sex a certain number of times a week by threatening divorce if she doesn't. Often these women are economically dependent on them.
> 
> Do they feel proud of themselves? Do they feel powerful? And I wonder how loving that sex is, given that she has consequences for not complying with his demands. Do those men even care if it's authentic?


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> I frustrated Dr. Jamie for months - nothing more fun than a stubborn behavioral / clinical psych going against a cognitive /,experimental psych.
> 
> The outcome was quite clear. I did not seem to have any unresolved issues from childhood. Only red flag was an overall lack of maturity (thanks Jamie, Blue Cross really got it's money's worth) and overly cynical / pessimistic attitude in life (duh). Tend to overthink (duh).
> 
> Other than that I'm as pristine as they get


Oh damn! I would pay money to listen to that!


----------



## john117

Our local law enforcement agencies routinely publicize the names of patrons arrested in various Vice Squad operations... They have also been too eager to go after massage parlors that offer happy endings...


----------



## jld

Well, BB is the one turning down sex, as I understand it. She is offering.

He could divorce, but I don't think he wants to. 

Your boundary idea might work. I think my loving and trying to understand her idea could not hurt.

I just can't be a cheerleader for options 2-5. I would not want them done to me.


----------



## Duguesclin

If BB2 is truly the root cause of the problem in the marriage and nothing will do to change her, then divorce is an option. 

If there are issues on both sides and the root cause is far more complex, then divorce will not solve anything and probably make matters worse because they will both have to work even harder than they did before to find some new stable ground.

Only BB knows all the details.


----------



## Catherine602

BostonBruins32 said:


> I dotn think she thinks i will end it. Again, my boundaries likely suck.
> 
> Oddly enough, i'm fully confident she will end it if i have a hiccup large enough. Again, if I gained 30lbs, made $40k less per year, or fought back (tit for tat) harder during disagreements, I think she could see any of these as ammo to leave. I could be way off base, I just know she pulled a "need space" card once. A stay at home mom, felt confident to pull that card once. Anything is possible.


Wrong again. You would be a very poor poker player. You hold a royal flush and she has three of a kind. You folded and you continue to fold. :scratchhead:


----------



## MEM2020

J,
I love your genuine-ness. It is a beautiful trait. 

Vast difference between someone wanting to connect with you, and someone tolerating sex with you. Or letting you have sex with them. 





jld said:


> Well, BB is the one turning down sex, as I understand it. She is offering.
> 
> He could divorce, but I don't think he wants to.
> 
> Your boundary idea might work. I think my loving and trying to understand her idea could not hurt.
> 
> I just can't be a cheerleader for options 2-5. I would not want them done to me.


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> I realize it sounds like i think very lowly of myself. My marriage confidence sucks. My real life (outside of marriage) confidence is different.




Beware one can erode the other.



I do not like the person I let myself become. It is taking a long time to build my emotional health back to where it should be.



Depression is a risk, when there is chronic stress and unmet needs.



Same for my wife, and our relationship.



IC has been the best guard and support for me. IC with someone that is safe and competent.



IC that is focused on me.


----------



## PieceOfSky

MEM11363 said:


> J,
> 
> 
> I love your genuine-ness. It is a beautiful trait.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vast difference between someone wanting to connect with you, and someone tolerating sex with you. Or letting you have sex with them.







There is also a vast difference between paying someone to have sex with you because your wife prefers not to, and divorcing so there is a chance you can find someone to have lovingly intimate sex with you as an affirmation of all that is good in her and you and between you.



So, I can see how some would prefer divorce. Some want the whole package.



For me, sex has become the least of my worries. It was the canary in the coal mine. The canary is long dead.



Sex from my wife is something I now want to avoid, as I see it is sort of like a mind altering drug that keeps me "comfortably numb.". I had know idea this could ever become my situation, way back years ago when her elusiveness and disinterest in connecting with me was foremost in my mind.



My wife may regret the hand she had in this, but it is looking more and more like that won't happen until I am completely done.



BB, there is something to be said for walking towards the door because she is not -- for whatever reason -- participating in your growth together and her own personal growth. If you wait too long, you might not give a damn if the door closing behind you jolts her awake.


----------



## MEM2020

Totally get the whole fresh start point of view. 

And maybe after a period of time outsourcing I would have gotten their. The thing is that M2 is a good/great life companion, so the idea of outsourcing for a while was far more appealing to me, than divorcing her. 

The option of saying: fvck me or sign the divorce papers was so ugly that I couldn't get there. 

I guess some people take a softer approach: go to MC or sex therapy with me, or sign the divorce papers. But understand that I'm not interested in a sexless marriage. 


QUOTE=PieceOfSky;8563922]There is also a vast difference between paying someone to have sex with you because your wife prefers not to, and divorcing so there is a chance you can find someone to have lovingly intimate sex with you as an affirmation of all that is good in her and you and between you.



So, I can see how some would prefer divorce. Some want the whole package.



For me, sex has become the least of my worries. It was the canary in the coal mine. The canary is long dead.



Sex from my wife is something I now want to avoid, as I see it is sort of like a mind altering drug that keeps me "comfortably numb.". I had know idea this could ever become my situation, way back years ago when her elusiveness and disinterest in connecting with me was foremost in my mind.



My wife may regret the hand she had in this, but it is looking more and more like that won't happen until I am completely done.



BB, there is something to be said for walking towards the door because she is not -- for whatever reason -- participating in your growth together and her own personal growth. If you wait too long, you might not give a damn if the door closing behind you jolts her awake.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

MEM,

How long did M2's holdout last?


----------



## MEM2020

5 days

About a year or so later she confessed out of the blue. Told me that she had fallen in love with our lead construction guy at work. 
And that her strategy was to get me to be the bad guy and divorce her as she had no grounds for divorcing me. To get me to divorce her she tried 3 days of unadulterated *****iness. And on the 4th day she said she was tired of having sex with me. 

The fifth day I proposed my outsourcing plan. And the hysterical bonding sex began. 

She's always been a little crazy, so it never dawned on me that she was in love with the OM. 

For a more whimsical treatment see the link below. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...-cheated-my-husband-left-134.html#post8460625





john117 said:


> MEM,
> 
> How long did M2's holdout last?


----------



## john117

5 days out of decades of marriage. Most of us have been dealing with it for years or more. And before that there was plenty of time for warmups, assessing where the marriage stands, and taking action...

People don't wake up one day and decide to stop having sex. It happens gradually like boiling the lobster. It can happen in an acute way like on your case and the way you handled it matched the situation. In many LD cases it goes slowly like a lobster so that isn't practical.

In acute cases it's fairly clear what happened. In lobster cases not quite.


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> 5. Outsource openly with professionals


So, I'm gonna be quite transparent here and confess that the reason I know that women get extremely horny when their EN's are met by another man and see another's face with the H as the "tool" is because it happened to me when I was in therapy.

Goose and gander, Mem. You OK with outsourcing like that?

BB's wife goes into therapy and the experience of being so deeply heard and understood makes her fall in love...

(doesn't really matter the gender of the therapist either. When I was in all girls boarding school in HS, I had sexual fantasies about classmates)

Or BB can BE someone who listens and deeply understands his wife (which is what I think I hear JLD advocating). Believe me, it fosters intense feelings of love and desire...


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> BB's wife goes into therapy and the experience of being so deeply heard and understood makes her fall in love...
> 
> Or BB can BE someone who listens and deeply understands his wife (which is what I think I hear JLD advocating). Believe me, it fosters intense feelings of love and desire...


This is _exactly_ what I am advocating. _Thank you, _Blonde, for the support.

Today, dh called me from Germany (or Denmark, not sure). He is gone for two weeks, and usually when we talk, he seems to be half listening. He is listening, but looking at something else, or distracted, or writing a business e-mail.

Well, today, he was relaxed and completely engaged with me. He was looking at me, totally focused, really listening. He was just completely present with me. I felt so incredibly _loved._

I really wish he were here with me right now. His needs would be being met, too.


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,
I've got my share of flaws, and it was unfair to M2 to leave her open ended in a situation like that. 

Here's the thing, his raw sex rank was higher than mine because:
- He was physically hotter in a rugged way. Like the Marlboro man guys in the advertisements. If she has a type, that's it. 
- He was the ultimate handyman - could build/fix anything. On a 10 scale, he was a 9. When I do that stuff at home it does turn her on. Always has. 
- He was playful and funny.

When she confessed: She told me that his big weaknesses were:
- He was unwilling/unable to talk to her about anything other than projects he was working on. He had some cool hobbies (model airplanes) but she had zero interest in that.
- Contributing to this: he was barely literate, hated to read, didn't even read the newspaper. 

M2 is a voracious reader and she and I often recommend books to each other and talk about them. 

So when she rode with him in the work truck to projects, she told me that it was almost entirely awkward silence. His grammar was poor and he routinely invented new words such as conversate. That type of verbal clumsiness grates on M2's nerves. 

-------
That said, my part in this was in ignoring a very bad situation. Without doubt it was the weakest, lamest behavior I have exhibited in 24 years. They worked together daily for almost 3 years. Huge red flags I ignored:
- She became hyper sexual with me a few months after we hired him. 
- At the one year point she told me that 6 months earlier she went to see her priest, because she was worried about our marriage. 
- She told me the sexual saturation was her attempt to strengthen our bond in the face of temptation. 

At that point: Did I ask her if she/we were ok? Nope. Did I ask if she was in love with him? Nope. 

She did try to sell the business but the economy sucked back in 2009. We eventually sold it in 2012. 

I guess, I did up my game with her and I sort of dimly acknowledged to myself that there was some risk, but 2-3 times during their last two years together she totally freaked out and started talking about divorce. And I never connected those freak outs with her being in love with someone else. Typically the freak outs were intense but short lived. The 5 day one was the longest. 

Luckily for clueless me, the more freaked out she got, the calmer I was. Calm. Nice. Soothing. She just seemed so agitated. Like a crazy person whose lost their meds. Felt sorry for her and tried to be supportive. After a few days she would calm down and apologize for being a psycho bltch. 

But in hindsight, I am absolutely certain that she was picturing him, while having sex with me for most of those 3 years. 

If there was an Oscar for willful incomprehension, I would have won it 3 years running. 




Blonde said:


> So, I'm gonna be quite transparent here and confess that the reason I know that women get extremely horny when their EN's are met by another man and see another's face with the H as the "tool" is because it happened to me when I was in therapy.
> 
> Goose and gander, Mem. You OK with outsourcing like that?
> 
> BB's wife goes into therapy and the experience of being so deeply heard and understood makes her fall in love...
> 
> (doesn't really matter the gender of the therapist either. When I was in all girls boarding school in HS, I had sexual fantasies about classmates)
> 
> Or BB can BE someone who listens and deeply understands his wife (which is what I think I hear JLD advocating). Believe me, it fosters intense feelings of love and desire...


----------



## jld

MEM, all that appearance stuff is overrated. Meeting her emotional needs is where it is really at.

Your dw would have had a brief physical fling, and then she would have wondered what she had seen in him. If a person is smart, they want another smart person for a LTR. That guy would not have cut it.

Being turned on is really different short term v. long term. Good character will win in the long term, every time, if you're dealing with a quality person.


----------



## MEM2020

In the spirit of extreme transparency: I would not have divorced her had it gone briefly physical. Being in daily proximity to someone you find super hot for 3 years - that's a crazy amount of temptation. I would not want to test my own self control with such a situation. 




jld said:


> MEM, all that appearance stuff is overrated. Meeting her emotional needs is where it is really at.
> 
> Your dw would have had a brief physical fling, and then she would have wondered what she had seen in him. If a person is smart, they want another smart person for a LTR. That guy would not have cut it.
> 
> Being turned on is really different short term v. long term. Good character will win in the long term, every time, if you're dealing with a quality person.


----------



## Lyris

Did you know about the OM when you first came to TAM, MEM?


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> MEM, all that appearance stuff is overrated. Meeting her emotional needs is where it is really at.
> 
> Your dw would have had a brief physical fling, and then she would have wondered what she had seen in him. If a person is smart, they want another smart person for a LTR. That guy would not have cut it.
> 
> Being turned on is really different short term v. long term. Good character will win in the long term, every time, if you're dealing with a quality person.


This is why tree man got on my nerves. He wasn't attractive but I am certain he provided an emotional shoulder. Isn't this a bigger threat? Especially in a marriage that is struggling? I don't think she wanted to be with him, I just think he helped drive tgat wedge further between us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> In the spirit of extreme transparency: I would not have divorced her had it gone briefly physical. Being in daily proximity to someone you find super hot for 3 years - that's a crazy amount of temptation. I would not want to test my own self control with such a situation.



I was in daily - and nightly thanks to massive overtime  - contact with our 30 year old project manager whom I found beyond super hot for 2 years. We are talking 6 inch heels, painted on jeans, rather revealing tops... She had something like 120 science and engineering guys working for her and yes, she played the looks card when needed. To make things worse she's married to a tree guy type in a farm town. 

At the end we got the project done and nobody hit on her. Not even close. Most people are in better control of temptations than we give them credit for. 

Again, your experience was EA driven. I can't speak for BB but I would be elated if the security DVR at home showed J2 getting it on with any of her cute Indian guys...


----------



## PieceOfSky

Why elated, John?


----------



## john117

Because that would tell me in no uncertain terms that the zombie marriage is not the real her, and that I somehow don't meet her needs. 

That I could try to fix... As it is, it's like dueling with a ghost.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blonde said:


> Or BB can BE someone who listens and deeply understands his wife (which is what I think I hear JLD advocating). Believe me, it fosters intense feelings of love and desire...





It can foster those feelings with someone like you and jld and many other women here, and in a lasting and consistent way.



But there are no guarantees. There are many people in this world who retreat from the other as they feel the love rising in themselves -- through no fault of the one lovingly and patiently listening and understanding. Push-pull, "I hate you, don't leave me", "I need you, don't come near me" and all that.



I don't disagree that the dynamic you describe exists. In fact, I am rather invested in the notion that it does -- somewhere, for at least some women. Just pointing out I don't believe it is universal, and when the dynamic is not there different choices and tactics become relevant.



BB, no idea if any of that fits your situation.


----------



## john117

PieceOfSky said:


> But there are no guarantees. There are many people in this world who retreat from the other as they feel the love rising in themselves -- through no fault of the one lovingly and patiently listening and understanding. Push-pull, "I hate you, don't leave me", "I need you, don't come near me" and all that.



If the quote above is literal rather than virtual then the possibility of BPD or NPD could be quite higher than first thought.

The way you wrote it, more NPD than BPD.


----------



## MEM2020

She confessed in summer of 2012. 





Lyris said:


> Did you know about the OM when you first came to TAM, MEM?


----------



## MEM2020

John,
You've made that comment before as well. 

Why would you be happy if j2 was in a PA?




john117 said:


> I was in daily - and nightly thanks to massive overtime  - contact with our 30 year old project manager whom I found beyond super hot for 2 years. We are talking 6 inch heels, painted on jeans, rather revealing tops... She had something like 120 science and engineering guys working for her and yes, she played the looks card when needed. To make things worse she's married to a tree guy type in a farm town.
> 
> At the end we got the project done and nobody hit on her. Not even close. Most people are in better control of temptations than we give them credit for.
> 
> Again, your experience was EA driven. I can't speak for BB but I would be elated if the security DVR at home showed J2 getting it on with any of her cute Indian guys...


----------



## john117

An EA would indicate some interest in anything intimate with anyone, a PA definite interest. 

She's had the opportunity. People have hit on her from work (saw one via IM :rofl no biting 

Hand her the keys to a mega mansion and maybe... I would not mind that either.


----------



## PieceOfSky

john117 said:


> An EA would indicate some interest in anything intimate with anyone, a PA definite interest.
> 
> She's had the opportunity. People have hit on her from work (saw one via IM :rofl no biting
> 
> Hand her the keys to a mega mansion and maybe... I would not mind that either.


Isn't it "enough" (as in "enough is enough") for her to not be meeting your needs, for her to not be interested in meeting your needs, for her to not be able to meet your needs, and for her not be able to be interested in meeting your needs?

None of my business, but when I think of you in your situation, I hope you have full awareness of that the four "nots" I just mentioned are actionable on their own (dis)merits. 

Whether she ever shows interest in having someone else meet her Emotional or Physical needs seems completely unrelated to what she has consistently not been able or willing to do for you.


----------



## PieceOfSky

PieceOfSky said:


> But there are no guarantees. There are many people in this world who retreat from the other as they feel the love rising in themselves -- through no fault of the one lovingly and patiently listening and understanding. Push-pull, "I hate you, don't leave me", "I need you, don't come near me" and all that.





john117 said:


> If the quote above is literal rather than virtual then the possibility of BPD or NPD could be quite higher than first thought.
> 
> The way you wrote it, more NPD than BPD.


Do you mean BPD or NPD being a possibility in my situation?

I have never thought NPD matched my wife's behavior, but sometimes think BPD does.

My IC doesn't think from my descriptions my wife meets the diagnostic criteria for BPD. When I look at DSM-IV, BPD seems to match very well.

To be clear, I'm aware that my "quotes" are part of the language used to describe BPD; one is literally a book title, IIRC. So, I'm not sure one can safely read anything from my choice to type them. However, those "quotes" do match my experience over decades, best I can remember.


----------



## john117

PieceOfSky said:


> None of my business, but when I think of you in your situation, I hope you have full awareness of that the four "nots" I just mentioned are actionable on their own (dis)merits.


They are. But it's an academic question more than anything else. The amateur psychologist in me . It comes back to my much despised "evil or stupid" debate. As a scientist I like dealing with known stuff. 



> Whether she ever shows interest in having someone else meet her Emotional or Physical needs seems completely unrelated to what she has consistently not been able or willing to do for you.



They are. One only has to look at T2fio for the proof. 

If the home security DVR showed she's getting it on with Ravi the Bollywood actor look guy and occasional migrant project manager I would know it's me vs. Ravi and Ravi won out. Pass the masala 

Likewise if she spends endless hours chatting on IM with her "children" (mostly male temporarily here Indian analysts under her wing) I would be impressed that she craves attention of some kind. 

It's like the doc sticking a needle into a paralyzed limb. 

Most people are attention wh0res. I crave recognition in my field and achievements from my kids. She does not crave any attention. We're talking Stephanie Meyers spec industrial Class 8 zombie here. 

In her earlier BPD days she wanted to be recognized by her compatriots and family as someone successful so she did the house, the pseudo SUV, kids, etc. This is fairly typical in her cadre of friends from her country. We used to entertain a few times a year, not much of that too.

Not even that this days. The only thing I saw her admire was her weight - not the rest of her figure that looks very good at this age - but weight. Everything is a number. To her defense she's a math major but still... That and landscaping / house in general.

These are the subtleties that BB should be looking for. Has B2 checked out or is there some light still there?


----------



## john117

PieceOfSky said:


> Do you mean BPD or NPD being a possibility in my situation?
> 
> 
> 
> I have never thought NPD matched my wife's behavior, but sometimes think BPD does.
> 
> 
> 
> My IC doesn't think from my descriptions my wife meets the diagnostic criteria for BPD. When I look at DSM-IV, BPD seems to match very well.



Are you holding back? 

Those are spectrum disorders with a range of symptoms. Best way is to watch some YouTube videos of BPD or NPD people, read case stories, and decide.


----------



## jld

John, would your wife give you a card in which she acknowledges how she has treated you and thanks you for putting up with it?

I don't think Mrs. BB has BPD at all. I think she is sad and frustrated. If BB can get counseling to address his own issues, he will become secure enough to meet her emotional needs.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> John, would your wife give you a card in which she acknowledges how she has treated you and thanks you for putting up with it?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think Mrs. BB has BPD at all. I think she is sad and frustrated. If BB can get counseling to address his own issues, he will become secure enough to meet her emotional needs.



A Best Buy gift card perhaps  no, she's not the gift giving type and receiving gifts only works if they're masonry or plant based. It's my birthday next week and my team is taking me to an awesome Thai place. That's the extent of it. But I did treat myself to a new camera today (dd1 will take it to Europe next week but it's mine after that - Canon G16 if anyone cares, the travel abroad people specifically said no huge cameras)

NormalPeople (tm) don't get sad and frustrated for no reason unless they married a total monster. BB does not strike me as the monstry type either that has to work thru issues like a punch list... 

To me B2 at least it's fairly clear cut. CSA plus unfulfilled material and maternal needs -> resentment -> no warm communication -> no intimacy. Unraveling this means going back to reassess CSA and even more, reassess what attracted her to BB in the first place. 

BB is unfulfilled emotional needs -> resentment etc. Mexican standoff if there ever was one. If they're lucky one will snap soon and something - anything - will happen. 

Also add to that lack of role models. If B2 had a reasonable and trusted role model (friend or relative) that she would confide to.... Maybe BB too as I still feel there's a piece of the puzzle missing...


----------



## jld

Well, I do not think this is all Mrs. BB. 

BB can work on himself. If he changes, she will change, too, or the marriage will likely dissolve.

He needs more help than TAM can reasonably offer. He needs IC. And she obviously does.


----------



## john117

Change is good but you also need clear objectives for the path forward. Let's say the goal is increase income by $30k or house six by 1000 sq ft or reduce weight by 20 lb. or what not. It has to be reciprocal and gradual with a clear understanding that this is the root cause to begin with.

And at that point in any case it's looking like horse trading, without any innate rationale for improvement. 

In my view people need IC only when their situation interferes with normal life. If BB or whoever meets a baseline of expectations or requirements that most people would find reasonable then expecting normalcy as reciprocation would not be out of the picture. 

IC should not be viewed as a requirement of decent married life unless we are talking domestic issues, verbal fireworks, anger, etc that are a clear and present danger to the marriage. For the rest, the low grade fever variety, the couple will need to work it out using the tools suggested, transparency, listening, tolerance? And so on. 

If younger people don't learn to resolve issues now at age 30 on their own and only call in the cavalry as the last resort they are royally skrewed at age 50.


----------



## PieceOfSky

john117 said:


> Are you holding back?
> 
> Those are spectrum disorders with a range of symptoms. Best way is to watch some YouTube videos of BPD or NPD people, read case stories, and decide.







Yes, I have been evading this line of inquiry. Which is foolish. Thanks for the eye opening question.


----------



## jld

But john, they aren't figuring things out on their own. They're struggling. They don't have a low grade fever. I think they could use some professional help.

We only hear one side. Just hearing that Mrs. BB said her husband has issues with his dad, and BB's agreeing, says that he could benefit from IC, imo.

A real life counselor can read his body language, and ideally see his wife, too. He/she can work much more intensively than we can. 

IC is certainly cheaper and less disruptive than a divorce. I don't see it as anything but helpful here.


----------



## john117

True, I agree, but a lot of these should have been resolved beforehand - dad and son issues affecting the marriage is a bit extreme. 

The fact is one must be willing to fight the battle if there is some hope of winning. Avoiding conflict only builds more resentment and after a while there is not much that can be done between the two of them. 

Both sides have to sit down and find how much they can work out between them and how much in IC and what in MC. If anything I would start with MC and see what the dividing issues are, then resolve those either IC or DIY.

The difficulty is that both have to own up their failings.


----------



## jld

One of the articles I read the other day on CSA said that many women are not willing to confront their CSA issues until 30 or so. It could be that Mrs. BB is coming to that time.

I think Mrs. BB's relationship with her mother sounds very unhealthy. I hold her mother responsible. And I say that as a mother myself. 

My daughter and I had an argument her senior year, and I said at the time, and I still say now, that that argument was my fault. I should have had the maturity to listen to my daughter and come up with a reasonable compromise. 

Instead, I was completely emotional, uncompromising, and immature about it. We ended up seeing the psychologist at the hospital (it was during the time of ds15's relapse, huge stress) to figure it out.

I think professional help is invaluable. I don't think BB would regret it. 

We are nearing 200 pages, and I am not sure our advice is helping BB as much as IC or MC could.


----------



## john117

At this point yes you're correct. Is should not have come to that tho.

If you only had one big argument ever with DD you're golden. We had daily ones for a while...


----------



## MEM2020

John,
You've described some bone on bone conflict that made complete sense to me. The kids education for instance.

You've also subjectively told us that physically your wife is an 8 or thereabouts and you self describe as a 5 with a gut. 

In contrast, M2 and I are a matching 7's in terms of raw physical attractiveness. 

One contributing factor in M2 still liking sex with me is that I have consciously chosen to stay fit. 

Why are you so certain that J2 won't respond positively to you getting in shape? This is the one topic you consistently respond to in a manner that makes no sense to me. 

Here's your worst case scenario: you get in shape, nothing improves and when you abandon ship you experience less guilt knowing that you truly tried everything.....





john117 said:


> They are. But it's an academic question more than anything else. The amateur psychologist in me . It comes back to my much despised "evil or stupid" debate. As a scientist I like dealing with known stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are. One only has to look at T2fio for the proof.
> 
> If the home security DVR showed she's getting it on with Ravi the Bollywood actor look guy and occasional migrant project manager I would know it's me vs. Ravi and Ravi won out. Pass the masala
> 
> Likewise if she spends endless hours chatting on IM with her "children" (mostly male temporarily here Indian analysts under her wing) I would be impressed that she craves attention of some kind.
> 
> It's like the doc sticking a needle into a paralyzed limb.
> 
> Most people are attention wh0res. I crave recognition in my field and achievements from my kids. She does not crave any attention. We're talking Stephanie Meyers spec industrial Class 8 zombie here.
> 
> In her earlier BPD days she wanted to be recognized by her compatriots and family as someone successful so she did the house, the pseudo SUV, kids, etc. This is fairly typical in her cadre of friends from her country. We used to entertain a few times a year, not much of that too.
> 
> Not even that this days. The only thing I saw her admire was her weight - not the rest of her figure that looks very good at this age - but weight. Everything is a number. To her defense she's a math major but still... That and landscaping / house in general.
> 
> These are the subtleties that BB should be looking for. Has B2 checked out or is there some light still there?


----------



## jld

MEM, do you not believe me when I tell you the physical is not as important to women as the emotional? And that even if that is the attraction, it will not sustain the relationship?

John's wife is working with many young, likely fit and attractive men. She is not responding.

I am not saying john would not enjoy being fitter, but I don't know that that would move his wife. JMO, though.

And just for the record, dh has never been a weight lifter. He is 6'2", 200 lbs, and loves cycling, but has never made exercise a non-negotiable (though he does it several times a week). A vegan diet keeps the weight reasonable. 

Okay, maybe it is just me, but I think the mind/heart/soul is the most appealing part of a man.


----------



## PieceOfSky

jld said:


> ... A vegan diet keeps the weight reasonable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, maybe it is just me, but I think the mind/heart/soul is the most appealing part of a man.






Keyword: Vegan



Hard to go wrong on a vegan diet. Now, ova-lacto vegetarianism, in the wrong hands, can really go wrong over twenty years or so. Trust me, I know.



Jld, are you vegan too?





Re. that last sentence, you warm my heart.


----------



## jld

PieceOfSky said:


> Keyword: Vegan
> Yes, that is key!
> 
> Hard to go wrong on a vegan diet. Now, ova-lacto vegetarianism, in the wrong hands, can really go wrong over twenty years or so. Trust me, I know.
> Yep, I know, too. I spent nearly a decade eating dairy and eggs, and was 30 lbs. overweight.
> 
> Jld, are you vegan too? Yes, indeed. And gratefully so.
> 
> Re. that last sentence, you warm my heart. Glad to hear it.  And it is the absolute truth, Piece.


----------



## john117

Let's put it this way MEM. I have never been in the shape of a prime specimen. Genetics etc.

I could benefit by losing 25 lb and even Dr. Quack, my trusted physician, has said so. Never mind my blood chemistry is very good, EKG good, you get the picture. As much as I blame our favorite mathematician, bad food is not one of her things. We eat healthy. Not quite jld spec but pretty well. 

Pre-Rapture we used to walk with J2 daily. And talk. And talk. Our city has a renowned system of trails for walking and bicycling. And pre-Rapture I actually lost about 15-20 lb. I was walking 4-5 miles a day. 

Post-Rapture several things happened that impacted my eating habits. One, work picked up and we spent a year or more working 60 hour weeks. With catering and paid overtime. Made a lot of money and a lot of calories. 

Dealing with J2 was energy draining. Thing how you would feel constantly arguing about this or that. Constantly. Go for a walk? Either get the silent treatment or 60-90 minutes of b!tching. Not conducive to anything.

Add the stress of college applications, college visits, dealing with financial aid, logistics, the works 2x. Meanwhile with maintenance of a huge house. Meanwhile with being single parent. Absolutely no time left. 

Now both girls are in college but I still do everything needed for support (the older girl is about as independent as mom so...) add time. Schedule Medicals and dentals for everyone. Next week DD1 is flying to Paris for summer school. Guess who did all the paperwork 

Many of these are things I can delegate but unfortunately the family is not very good at bureaucratic matters. And I'd rather let the girls focus on getting good grades. 

Today I did several hours of shopping and several hours of landscaping. The entire time my wife was at her home office saving the planet. I helped by uprooting a dead 10 foot tall arborvitae that died on us. 3 down 4 to go.

I know it's not an excuse. Both my parents were like me. Except they helped other people - the family was fairly self sufficient. J2's family had servants and the like. No such luck here. 

I'm getting a decent bicycle to get me out of the house. As a kid I loved bicycling (it's a European thing) and with the trails we have it's a no brainer. Hopefully end of month. 

Meanwhile J2 has all the responsibilities of Chomsky, our goldfish (named after Noam Chomsky, the famous academician ). Daily run on the threadmill 2-3 pm during soap opera time on TV (she works from home). Then 4-5 pm another hour of walk on the trails. Then up until 10pm nightly working (lolz). So an 8 hour day becomes a 16 hour day... 

But the pounds aren't really the issue as JLD astutely observed. If it gets to the point that 180 lb gets laid and 200 lb doesn't then it's a control issue. And I don't do well with controlling people. 

Besides I have been at this weight since after college. I kind of doubt she just noticed


----------



## MEM2020

Totally believe it. I also think that staying fit is a win/win. Good for you and shows commitment to the idea of making a good faith effort to stay attractive to your spouse. 

Being fit has no adverse impact on being kind/caring/etc.




jld said:


> MEM, do you not believe me when I tell you the physical is not as important to women as the emotional? And that even if that is the attraction, it will not sustain the relationship?
> 
> John's wife is working with many young, likely fit and attractive men. She is not responding.
> 
> I am not saying john would not enjoy being fitter, but I don't know that that would move his wife. JMO, though.
> 
> And just for the record, dh has never been a weight lifter. He is 6'2", 200 lbs, and loves cycling, but has never made exercise a non-negotiable (though he does it several times a week). A vegan diet keeps the weight reasonable.
> 
> Okay, maybe it is just me, but I think the mind/heart/soul is the most appealing part of a man.


----------



## john117

Just for the record here is what I look like right now.... Give or take 

View attachment 23106


----------



## john117

And since this is BB's thread... BB, don't wait to look like me to take action


----------



## MEM2020

Brutal schedule. 

And a high selflessness score. 

You won't be single long if J2 forces this situation to its natural conclusion. 




john117 said:


> Let's put it this way MEM. I have never been in the shape of a prime specimen. Genetics etc.
> 
> I could benefit by losing 25 lb and even Dr. Quack, my trusted physician, has said so. Never mind my blood chemistry is very good, EKG good, you get the picture. As much as I blame our favorite mathematician, bad food is not one of her things. We eat healthy. Not quite jld spec but pretty well.
> 
> Pre-Rapture we used to walk with J2 daily. And talk. And talk. Our city has a renowned system of trails for walking and bicycling. And pre-Rapture I actually lost about 15-20 lb. I was walking 4-5 miles a day.
> 
> Post-Rapture several things happened that impacted my eating habits. One, work picked up and we spent a year or more working 60 hour weeks. With catering and paid overtime. Made a lot of money and a lot of calories.
> 
> Dealing with J2 was energy draining. Thing how you would feel constantly arguing about this or that. Constantly. Go for a walk? Either get the silent treatment or 60-90 minutes of b!tching. Not conducive to anything.
> 
> Add the stress of college applications, college visits, dealing with financial aid, logistics, the works 2x. Meanwhile with maintenance of a huge house. Meanwhile with being single parent. Absolutely no time left.
> 
> Now both girls are in college but I still do everything needed for support (the older girl is about as independent as mom so...) add time. Schedule Medicals and dentals for everyone. Next week DD1 is flying to Paris for summer school. Guess who did all the paperwork
> 
> Many of these are things I can delegate but unfortunately the family is not very good at bureaucratic matters. And I'd rather let the girls focus on getting good grades.
> 
> Today I did several hours of shopping and several hours of landscaping. The entire time my wife was at her home office saving the planet. I helped by uprooting a dead 10 foot tall arborvitae that died on us. 3 down 4 to go.
> 
> I know it's not an excuse. Both my parents were like me. Except they helped other people - the family was fairly self sufficient. J2's family had servants and the like. No such luck here.
> 
> I'm getting a decent bicycle to get me out of the house. As a kid I loved bicycling (it's a European thing) and with the trails we have it's a no brainer. Hopefully end of month.
> 
> Meanwhile J2 has all the responsibilities of Chomsky, our goldfish (named after Noam Chomsky, the famous academician ). Daily run on the threadmill 2-3 pm during soap opera time on TV (she works from home). Then 4-5 pm another hour of walk on the trails. Then up until 10pm nightly working (lolz). So an 8 hour day becomes a 16 hour day...
> 
> But the pounds aren't really the issue as JLD astutely observed. If it gets to the point that 180 lb gets laid and 200 lb doesn't then it's a control issue. And I don't do well with controlling people.
> 
> Besides I have been at this weight since after college. I kind of doubt she just noticed


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Brutal schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> And a high selflessness score.
> 
> 
> 
> You won't be single long if J2 forces this situation to its natural conclusion.



Not selflessness - more like better safe than sorry . I enjoy taking care of things; for example, left to their own devices, my daughters will walk right into a minefield of college electives that would nuke their gpa as elective often do. 

But to be honest I plan to stay single if/when (when) it comes to that. No point risking it all on another J2.


----------



## LongWalk

John,

Does your wife have any idea that you are contemplating divorce?

Are you worried that your daughters will say, "Oh, dad, you should have done it years ago."


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> True, I agree, but a lot of these should have been resolved beforehand - dad and son issues affecting the marriage is a bit extreme.


I disagree. FOO and childhood issues/baggage have a HUGE impact on M. HUGE! 

If nothing else, BB getting IC and dealing with his issues is a good role model for his W and family and I think it WILL help him to become healthier.


----------



## BostonBruins32

1812overture said:


> Boston:
> 
> Is TAM helping?
> 
> In January you wrote
> 
> 
> Now you are wondering if your wife had an affair 2-3 months before you wrote that, you are snooping, you are worried about the tree guy. At one point, while divorce was a possibility, you were worried about your relationship with your daughter. You say that has gotten much better, but now, your role in her life seems to have faded as a concern, but you're a mess.
> 
> Has TAM helped? It seems as though you were making progress at one point. Are the troubles now any worse than in January? It seems as those the facts aren't much different, but the way you feel about them is much different.


I'm not sure if it has helped. Its been a great sounding board, a great place to complain and or just air out some of my inner feelings. I sense much doom and gloom on many of these threads, but I also think you get much more of people's real feelings. For example, I know what I know about my friends marriages, but I never REALLLY REALLY hear how they feel. 

So on the surface, in real life, marriage all seem fine. Only mine sucks.

In TAM life, real people but not ones I see, most marriage have a struggle. Many have similar situations, and have seen a variety of outcomes. 

Point is, I use this site as a place to read up on what I feel are problems specific to my marriage. If I dig enough, people on here have almost an identical issue. So I take comfort in that and I like to hear how they wiggled out of it or how they cope remaining in it. 

TAM doesnt help resolve the marriage, but it helps me attempt to answer many questions I have that are extremely personal. I'm at a very different place today than January. I'm not sure if thats TAM or just my growth, or open eyes.


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> I disagree. FOO and childhood issues/baggage have a HUGE impact on M. HUGE!
> 
> 
> 
> If nothing else, BB getting IC and dealing with his issues is a good role model for his W and family and I think it WILL help him to become healthier.



Not necessarily disagreeing but said issues should be causing visible problems in the marriage. Are they?

Nobody has a storybook childhood. Yet many marriages thrive.


----------



## john117

LongWalk said:


> John,
> 
> Does your wife have any idea that you are contemplating divorce?
> 
> Are you worried that your daughters will say, "Oh, dad, you should have done it years ago."



1. Probably not. Of course she can't contemplate much. I suspect she thinks I'm not necessarily happy about it but will toil along. Part of the fun will be to simply walk out and see what happens. But a few things need to be manipulated in place otherwise it's going to be a b!tch cost wise, ie selling the house. Practical things.

2. No. They said it much earlier but once tuition bills started coming they realized what the main driver of it all is...


----------



## Duguesclin

john117 said:


> 1. Probably not. Of course she can't contemplate much. I suspect she thinks I'm not necessarily happy about it but will toil along. Part of the fun will be to simply walk out and see what happens. But a few things need to be manipulated in place otherwise it's going to be a b!tch cost wise, ie selling the house. Practical things.
> 
> 2. No. They said it much earlier but once tuition bills started coming they realized what the main driver of it all is...


John,

I am sorry but I have not read all your posts. So I do not know all the details between you and your wife. But of the few I have read, you sound controlling. I do not mean to offend you, just being direct.

Also why would not you tell her you are thinking about divorce? Don't you think it may help you to get through to her. Or are you scared of what she may do and greatly impact your financial comfort?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Totally believe it. I also think that staying fit is a win/win. Good for you and shows commitment to the idea of making a good faith effort to stay attractive to your spouse.
> 
> Being fit has no adverse impact on being kind/caring/etc.


It is certainly a good idea to be responsible about our health.

People start to lose me when they talk about remaining attractive to their spouse. I think I probably take dh for granted this way. He is always been more or less 200 lbs, regardless of how much exercise he does. He is not an overeater.

And even when I was overweight (30 lbs for nearly a decade, when we had all little kids), I never got the impression, in any way, that he was any less attracted to me.


----------



## john117

Duguesclin said:


> John,
> 
> I am sorry but I have not read all your posts. So I do not know all the details between you and your wife. But of the few I have read, you sound controlling. I do not mean to offend you, just being direct.
> 
> Also why would not you tell her you are thinking about divorce? Don't you think it may help you to get through to her. Or are you scared of what she may do and greatly impact your financial comfort?



Ah, you missed all the fun details.

I'm not controlling. I'm manipulating and planning. Do it right and nobody's complaining. As a scientist I like dealing with known quantities. I'm controlling to my kids because there is lots of money involved... Half of which is mine  so I have all the right to be.

The second comment... Remember I'm dealing with someone who has little interest in negotiating or compromising due to lack of empathy. Therefore, knowing or not won't make a difference. 

As posted in my original thread tho, her issue will be more of her inability to function independently in an acceptable quality of life situation. Meaning, she needs my support more than I need her support. 

Karma is a beach, I know.


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> I'm living there right now... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/189682-im-so-sad-scared-suicidal-14yos.html



Well, that was DD1 at age 15-18. Three years of counseling later with Dr. Jamie she appears to have forgiven mom and is now a magna cum laude junior in college with mom as her biggest cheerleader :lol:

Will she need IC down the road? No idea. But in the context of our discussion re: BB IC in my view is called for only when the person can't function fully due to past issues. In BB's case I did not sense it as such for him.


----------



## Catherine602

john117 said:


> Just for the record here is what I look like right now.... Give or take
> 
> View attachment 23106


You're killing me. 
Clean your nails after working in the garden and style your hair and you'll be jumped by at lest 5 women in the supermarket parking lot.

Was he the lawyer in "The war of the Roses"? If so, what are you communicating? You and J2 don't want to end up like them John. They had a big house too.


----------



## john117

That's Bilbo Baggins from Lord if the Rings... Which is part for the course with Dr. J2 being Gollum   

View attachment 23138


----------



## PieceOfSky

Edit, John! Edit! Delete is your friend!

You are being reckless. Something like this could end up on your permanent record.


----------



## john117

You haven't seen Dr. J2 in a cruise ship seafood buffet, if you think Gollum likes fish...

My mom's side of the family has produced some stellar comics. My grandpa, my mom, me, and my younger girl all share Bilbo looks and a funny bone of epic dimensions.


----------



## PieceOfSky

john117 said:


> You haven't seen Dr. J2 in a cruise ship seafood buffet, if you think Gollum likes fish...
> 
> My mom's side of the family has produced some stellar comics. My grandpa, my mom, me, and my younger girl all share Bilbo looks and a funny bone of epic dimensions.


I'm sure it is not detectable from my posts, but I do have a certain kind of sense of humor, and in the right environment attempt to inject my humor at all costs. Sometimes quite effectively, or at least I like to think so.

At some point, I realized my father, and my father's (late) mother, are (were) all similarly inflicted. I truly wonder if it it was passed down via "nurture" (learned) or if it was "nature" (genetics). But, if there are patterns to humor, she, he, and I share the same pattern.

My youngest shows some signs. Will be interesting to see if she has the same "gift", and chooses to use it.


----------



## john117

This may be of use to BB re B3 

When my younger one was in 1st grade she kept bringing C's in conduct with less than flattering comments from the teacher. Never mind she was reading Harry Potter in 1st grade or that she taught herself to read at 4. 

I told her I would get her a pony if she got a D in conduct. She tried pretty hard


----------



## BostonBruins32

God stuff john. B3 has ridiculous cognitive skills. Very aware and her verbal communication has been light years beyond her age. Advantage = has always been able to articulate her needs. That's also a disadvantage at times.  

Had a great weekend. Excellent behavior from b3. Lots of yard work. B2 was in good spirits all weekend. Greatly reduced ipad time. Asking me to go to bed with her, "coming too bed too? It's late". Again, b3 is setting the tone. Maybe I am. Her good behavior and or a calm household has been like sprinkling pixy dust on the wife and making her 150% less moody. 

I'm learning a lot. Leave wife alone a bit, give her space around the house. Keep b3 well behaved, don't overreact. 

Literally these two things create a magnet for b2. She seeks me out, and seeks less ipad time (latest craze is looking at dogs to adopt).

I still have something of a decreased sex drive.. 40 someyhibg days for us. 10 days since I've..ahem took care if myself. Both are long periods for me. I think I'm just too focused elsewhere . I won't prompt hwr for sex anytime soon. Maybe continued relationship improvement will peak my interest eventually .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> Well, that was DD1 at age 15-18. Three years of counseling later with Dr. Jamie she appears to have forgiven mom and is now a magna cum laude junior in college with mom as her biggest cheerleader :lol:


Yet apparently can't even fill out the paper work for a trip to Paris. 

Let her grow up. Don't be the parent that calls after a job interview to ask the interviewer how she did. You are not helping her.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Had a great weekend. Excellent behavior from b3. Lots of yard work. B2 was in good spirits all weekend. Greatly reduced ipad time. Asking me to go to bed with her, "coming too bed too? It's late". Again, b3 is setting the tone. Maybe I am. Her good behavior and or a calm household has been like sprinkling pixy dust on the wife and making her 150% less moody.
> 
> I'm learning a lot. Leave wife alone a bit, give her space around the house. Keep b3 well behaved, don't overreact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How does your wife initiate? I don't mean like you, I mean in her way?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Her way of initiating is in bed rubbing her leg against mine. Or sometimes if she is feeling really ambitious, she would literally reach over and start fondling me _there_.

I would say 2 times a year..maybe 3 has been her rate since marriage. 

To be honest, it almost always surprises me.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Her way of initiating is in bed rubbing her leg against mine. Or sometimes if she is feeling really ambitious, she would literally reach over and start fondling me _there_.
> 
> I would say 2 times a year..maybe 3 has been her rate since marriage.
> 
> To be honest, it almost always surprises me.


Anything else? Think more invitation as opposed to initiation.

I ask because my wife was very subtle in the beginning. Often, the invite to go to bed together was the initiation. But there were other things as well - more touching, particularly on the hand and forearm, giggling (as opposed to laughing or chuckling) and more flirtiness.

I was uneducated (to describe myself in the best light) about this and interpreted it as her just being happy. What I came to realize was this was her way of inviting me to have sex with her. She could not (at the time) initiate openly.

So when I hear that she asked you to head to bed at the same time, I immediately thought of my wife and wondered if you were missing an invite (which to you, was just too subtle).


----------



## BostonBruins32

possibly. but she had said she was tired earlier (full day of yard work, both of our backs are shot after 10 hours of it this weekend). I think she may just feel a bit closer to me emotionally, lately, thus liking to fall asleep with me in bed with her. 

to you're point, I likely would not know she is initiating until she nearly punches me in the head with it. I've spent a long time (years) with rejections even if I just reached to cuddle. Either way I dont care at the moment. This thread is on the sex section but I am in need of a much deeper connection than just sex right now. Its not to say I dont have urges, but I'm just not sitting there analyzing if shes initiating.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> possibly. but she had said she was tired earlier (full day of yard work, both of our backs are shot after 10 hours of it this weekend). I think she may just feel a bit closer to me emotionally, lately, thus liking to fall asleep with me in bed with her.


I am saying that her asking you to go to bed with her may well have been overriding an off hand remark about being tired made earlier in the day.



> to you're point, I likely would not know she is initiating until she nearly punches me in the head with it. I've spent a long time (years) with rejections even if I just reached to cuddle. Either way I dont care at the moment. This thread is on the sex section but I am in need of a much deeper connection than just sex right now. Its not to say I dont have urges, but I'm just not sitting there analyzing if shes initiating.


Sex can be part of that connection. It is not the only thing, but it usually part of it. Ignoring what she is doing means you are ignoring the complete picture. Do that at your own risk.


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> Yet apparently can't even fill out the paper work for a trip to Paris.
> 
> 
> 
> Let her grow up. Don't be the parent that calls after a job interview to ask the interviewer how she did. You are not helping her.



At double digit trip cost I would rather not 

It's a matter of bandwidth available. The trip required several times the paperwork I filled in to become a US Citizen filed with the university, the company that does the trip, financial aid, and State Dept. 

All this paperwork came due at midterms so... It's more of a "I have two weekends to kill vs she has 20 minutes to kill".


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> At double digit trip cost I would rather not
> 
> It's a matter of bandwidth available. The trip required several times the paperwork I filled in to become a US Citizen filed with the university, the company that does the trip, financial aid, and State Dept.
> 
> All this paperwork came due at midterms so... It's more of a "I have two weekends to kill vs she has 20 minutes to kill".


Or, if it was important, she would have done if before mid-terms. 

I see you sacrificing everything for your daughters. My point is that in your zeal to do so, you are actually hurting them. Because it some point, they need to be the ones moving their lives forward.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am saying that her asking you to go to bed with her may well have been overriding an off hand remark about being tired made earlier in the day.
> 
> 
> 
> Sex can be part of that connection. It is not the only thing, but it usually part of it. Ignoring what she is doing means you are ignoring the complete picture. Do that at your own risk.


I hear ya. Only issue is I gave up reading into her every move with regards to sexual behavior. I spent years thinking "wait, her leg is near me, is she in thd mood? She just rubbed my shoulder, foes that mean yes?" 96% of the time it still meant no. 

So I'm Bo longer in the business of hoping. If I want to initiate, I'll make it clear. If she wants to initiate, she can make it clear. In the meantime I'm not complaining on a lack of sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> Or, if it was important, she would have done if before mid-terms.
> 
> 
> 
> I see you sacrificing everything for your daughters. My point is that in your zeal to do so, you are actually hurting them. Because it some point, they need to be the ones moving their lives forward.



Usually you get a month or two to fill out the forms. Unfortunately this was a very fluid last minute class so they requested everything at the last moment. 

My younger one is attending school 12 hours drive away and she never asks is to do anything for her. She did 99% of the work - one of two is not bad I suppose


----------



## LongWalk

This guy got his wife on board by being firm. His wife is still not very orgasmic. But their marriage happier.

He was posting in 2102. After 11 years of sexless marriage, he threatened divorce. That got bad sex (only in the closet). He upped the demands but assured his wife that he loved her.

Read it here

Link


----------



## john117

The guy's story begins with a letter longer than the Statement of Work that I'm currently working on to outsource some prototype work... 

Should be an interesting read but I'm a believer that no two cases are ever alike so...


----------



## BostonBruins32

Him.

B2 aggressively looking at homes. Also looking at part time high paying per hour jobs to store money for down payment.

The good: recognition that it's or free.
The bad: part time jobs she's looking at are weekends or evenings . Her rational is no compromise with her time with b3. But it would compromise our time together. 

I told her I support her 100%. Thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

A bigger home? Why? Why are you supporting her 100%?

Less time with you is helpful how? More financial pressure is helpful how?


----------



## BostonBruins32

I like the understanding that it's not free or my job to afford. 

I'm not going to hold get back. As I outlined, space and independence creates this odd magnet where she feels better and seems to seek me out. If it doesn't work out because she tasted more independence, that's life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Two comments from the been there done that department.

1. Whatever money she makes will be taxed pretty badly thanks to the marriage tax penalty. Have clear expectations of what she will bring in vs the time invested, gas to drive to work, etc.

2. Whatever money she makes will need to continue coming in order to sustain a larger home (extra taxes, utility bills, insurance, maintenance, and of course "honey I always wanted a 6 foot toy giraffe for B3's new room" type expenses. So she better be planning to work there for a while which of course is mutually exclusive with B4.

Exactly how much of a house do you have now vs what she's looking at? What income and expense bumps are we talking about?

A friendly tax accountant can answer #1 and a decent realtor #2.

My view is that unless you bump the sq feet by about 1000 sq ft you're not going to notice. New neighborhood you will, but it's a bad idea to upgrade a house right now because the housing market is not very, umm, promising. Do you really want to buy high?

At the risk of being annoying I would say I would go for another child LONG before I go for a bigger house. I've lived the last 12 years in an awesome house and after the first year or two the novelty wears off (look honey, SEVEN bathrooms )


----------



## jld

BB, I think this is going to come back to bite you. Financial pressure has got to be right up there with cheating for stressing out marriages.

Please listen to what john is saying. I think you will thank him later.


----------



## Catherine602

BostonBruins32 said:


> Him.
> 
> B2 aggressively looking at homes. Also looking at part time high paying per hour jobs to store money for down payment.
> 
> The good: recognition that it's or free.
> The bad: part time jobs she's looking at are weekends or evenings . Her rational is no compromise with her time with b3. But it would compromise our time together.
> 
> I told her I support her 100%. Thoughts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bad bad bad. Could this be why she is being so nice to you. Softening you up? 

You said it Boston - More time away from each other. You're already disconnected how will that work? 

You don't have to say no outright. Just put some goals in place. The strength of your marriage, the sense of mutual respect, a sense of teamwork, feelings of love and acceptance. Put a timeline and benchmarks along the way. Perhaps 2 years would be a good period of time. .


----------



## PieceOfSky

LongWalk said:


> This guy got his wife on board by being firm. His wife is still not very orgasmic. But their marriage happier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was posting in 2102. After 11 years of sexless marriage, he threatened divorce. That got bad sex (only in the closet). He upped the demands but assured his wife that he loved her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read it here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link







So, as the next century arrives, there may be reason to hope?





(Probably not for smart alecs like me, who are easily amused after 23:00).


----------



## PieceOfSky

Recognizing a down payment is not free and feeling happy to work to pay off the mortgage for 15 - 30 years are two different things.



My wife has worked weekends and evenings for a decade. I hated it, until I stopped caring.


----------



## john117

And if you want to relocate to Paducah I can give you a special price on our house 

Still the biggest reason you DON'T want a huge house in an exclusive area is that it gets you and the family used to thinking that they've made it to the major leagues... It plays games with your head. "You mean the stuffed animals have to sleep in MY room?"

That's even worse than paying for it.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I agree this is a bad idea. For the record the marriage penalty is real and applies in a few very unusual circumstances. About 90% of my married clients actually receive a marriage benefit.


----------



## BostonBruins32

That's interesting.

John , new house would be plus 1,000 feet probably. And no thanks to Paducah(assuming you mean Kentucky). Used to travel that say for work.

So my immediate reaction was hmm there goes our only time together. But I just listened first. She currently works 3 dats a week, 20 ish hours midday. Additional job she was reviewing was some product promotional thing that has sparse hours, every other weekend for 5 hours and or maybe an ecebjbc here and there. I. The scheme of things, not a game changer. Not like a waitress with 3 nights a week or both sat and sun. My feedback to her was that's fine, as long as we still have our time together . She acknowledged and said she wouldn't want a job that impacts tgat, more than occassion few hours. Hence why she took current job.

Regarding new house. Big disconnect between her value and the market value of ougr house. I told her I disagree, but she insists we can get x amount for her house. To be honest, she's about 25% too high. Looking at comps etc , she's in for a royal let down if she puts house on market, as it would invite offers far below her expectations. As for new house, she expects our house to give her x amount in profit. Again she's way off. As for the monthly bills , this is obviously the main determining Factor in affordability. The agreed premise, dating to before we bought current home , is to not be house poor. We bought well under our buying power. The current situation 5 years later is that I have almost doubled earnings . So I've made it clear to her that as a team, we coukd afford x amount more. As a one income earner, we're no further ahead. I politely suggested that he easiest way to move the needle Is to continue working part time or to work full time when b3 goes to kindergarten. She is on board with the full time work . Always has been. 

So I can't tell her to stop browsing houses. She can do what she wants. I also don't want to control her job decision making. I've made it clear that new house and b4 are not on the table without improvement if the marriage. I had this conversation back when I took some space from her weeks or month ago. She's looked at houses for 3 years. She has also looked at dogs online for adoption off and on for years. A lot of it is old news. 

Essentuly I am pro her working. Life was 150% more tense when she was a restless stay at home. Right now I get a Friday morning call or email expressing hoe much she'd looking forward to the weekend. She wants to do everything as a family as it's the only dayd we're both off. Her working has huge value on her self esteem, mood, financial comfort, etc. So when she was looking at new part time jobs, I expressed my concern and she acknowledged it and agreed with my concern. So I'm fine with her looking. Expectations are clear. Alignment is clear. 

I guess this is why I'm not feeling red flags. Essentially nothing is happening until we continue to repair marriage( I made it clear that a house and child are not on my radar until there is palpable improvement) and until she has more work time under her belt.both take time. Meaning she can look all she wants, but nothing can happen tomorrow. Remember too, independence (space in the house, financial security she gets from her job, focus on our own hobbies) is someyhibg she's always needed. Even early on in our relationship she thrived when she was more independent. She felt more confident and always sought me out more aggressively. Our relationship is historically at its worst when she doesn't have a sense of her own belonging and when she's stuck at home waiting for me to come home and puppy dog her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Well, I feel reassured by your post. It sounds like you are not just rubber stamping any decision she makes to buy a bigger house. And you are right that she will feel more purpose when she is working. SAHM is not for everyone, and it is hardest, imo, when the kids are really little.

So you are basically going to let her see how hard it is to sell a house for the amount she thinks she can get? Just make sure you don't sign anything to buy before the house actually sells. I know, you know this already. 

It sounds like her working will bring some needed balance to your marriage, and take pressure off you. 

I hope everything works out the way you think it will. It will be a big change when your daughter is in kindergarten and your wife is back to work full-time. I hope it is a big change for the better.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Well, I feel reassured by your post. It sounds like you are not just rubber stamping any decision she makes to buy a bigger house. And you are right that she will feel more purpose when she is working. SAHM is not for everyone, and it is hardest, imo, when the kids are really little.
> 
> So you are basically going to let her see how hard it is to sell a house for the amount she thinks she can get? Just make sure you don't sign anything to buy before the house actually sells. I know, you know this already.
> 
> It sounds like her working will bring some needed balance to your marriage, and take pressure off you.
> 
> I hope everything works out the way you think it will. It will be a big change when your daughter is in kindergarten and your wife is back to work full-time. I hope it is a big change for the better.


She has been working part time for 8 months or so. It's been better. Much better for our household. 

And I wouldn't just let her try to sell the house etc. We would need a state if the union address before any house selling or buying would happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Good boundaries, BB. Good job.


----------



## john117

The next step is to talk to a realtor and see what comps we are talking about and also look online and at property tax records. Our city has an alarmingly powerful and open to prying eyes property look up system and all the info is there.

Same for MLS type sites. Plenty of information there so comps are not a problem. Watch out for sites like Zillow that may be hit and miss, realtors have access to much better info..

If you doubled your income in 5 years you may be in a so and so job stability situation or there may not be much of a trend upwards after all. We too doubled our income and house size in the late 1990's but things became much more stagnant later on. I don't live in Paducah but in the Midwest in general there are few areas that did not see massive overbuild so property values overall went nowhere, and incomes likewise. 

You need to address several things on top of all this in my view. 

One is schools. Our city may be more grandiose but we do have the best school system in the state and one of the best in the country - top 0.5%. So if you are living in Metropolitan Bumpkin School District....

Then property appreciation long term. If lots of properties in your new price range are available ask yourself why. Did a company just shut down a big facility there? Overbuilt?

How about adding house upgrades like new furniture and landscaping? Lots of money flying out the window you never anticipated.

Add the social costs - bigger house means lifestyle changes - costly changes...higher expectations.. Coworkers living in less flashy houses could cause trouble (don't ask how I know) and so on.

Finally B4 type goals go down in flames in case your income does not grow to cover her income.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> The current situation 5 years later is that I have almost doubled earnings . So I've made it clear to her that as a team, we coukd afford x amount more. As a one income earner, we're no further ahead. I politely suggested that he easiest way to move the needle Is to continue working part time or to work full time when b3 goes to kindergarten. She is on board with the full time work . Always has been.


If you are only having one kid, why do you need a bigger house?

I am cheering that you bought under what you could afford!!! We did that too, using only 15 year mortgages, and paid off the mortgage in 11 years (all on a single income which was never above 50K and we had an ever growing family)

We bought and sold 3 houses, improved each, and had sweat equity. We also moved cities though, and had to sell.

Your daughter is a walkie talkie and potty trained and you have forgotten how draining a baby is.... Your wife is going to be very stressed out if she ever has another baby after adding to her workload and you are so financially overboard that she HAS to work full time.

At this point in life (mid 50's) I can hardly wait to downsize and simplify. The big house was a necessity for my sanity with 8 children in the land of 9 month winters but now it's too much.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> One is schools. Our city may be more grandiose but we do have the best school system in the state and one of the best in the country - top 0.5%. So if you are living in Metropolitan Bumpkin School District....


^^is important and worth making a move for (but not necessarily to a bigger more expensive place)


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> ^^is important and worth making a move for (but not necessarily to a bigger more expensive place)



Unfortunately in some cases it is - housing stock at the desired price point is not always available, in my city you'll be hard pressed to find anything decent under $300k that isn't a ruin. Then the next step up is $500k and up because $400k homes here are basically $300k homes with a few lipstick-on-a-pig upgrades to show good but not worth much...

Even if you build custom the decent builders may not bother with smaller projects and those that do around here are fly by nights...

Real estate in general is a suckers bet.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> Real estate in general is a suckers bet.


Meh. RE has been good to us but we never bought on the high side of bubbles and we never owned anything which cost more than $125K

1st house- buy for 80, improve, sell 7 y later for 110
2nd house- put ALL equity in, buy for 121, improve, sell 3y later for 158
3rd houses (plural)- buy Amish farm for 97k outright no mortgage (no banks will loan on a place with no electric, etc) and buy second house in town for 72K (with mortgage) to live in while fixing up farm

And we bought a foreclosure in 2008 at the bottom of the RE market. Only 25K (fixup cost @35K including paying son for labor). Rents for $950/mo.

You can look here for bargain priced homes, BB. Fannie Mae REO Homes For Sale - HomePath.com One important thing is to be able to see potential in a place that is dated and needs cosmetic attention.


----------



## john117

It works if you have the time and energy to pursue it - and then only sometimes. It's very regional. Where we are there was - and still is - serious overbuilding of disposable housing. This killed the resale market. We bought our first home for $125k in 1990, it last sold a year ago 23 years later for $143k. That's Three Mile Island appreciation. Then the vulture developers moved in the $250-300k market and saturated it too. Thanks to various city ordinances rehabs are nearly impossible to do DIY... 

As I said, very regional and around here a suckers bet. Several coworkers did the rehab farm thing and it worked well. Then gas prices rose and these gentlemen farmers got nailed commuting to the city...


----------



## BostonBruins32

blonde, john, everyone.. I'm not buying a house anytime soon. Good school system, something we can afford..yep yep. agreed. not now though.

jeez you sound like my wife. I give an inch ( i atleast look at the house online when she sends it to me) and next thing you know shes asking me what our credit score is. I'm fine dreaming. We can drive by homes and admire or mock them. Thats fine. But unfortunately it always gets her engine going with regards to lets sell and buy. As I said, I don't have to do too much to argue with her on this. our home's value and our buying power should shut the door on her pretty quick.

although i do like the initiative she is showing, "hmm if i want a bigger house, i have to work more. ". I've always been the hyper motivated one, so its good to see her match it. I remember after B3 was born, I took on second job so she could stay home full time. She was thankful. Its funny, shes always pushed me that i'm worth more, but my current job offers such flexibility, and good enough pay, that shes finally telling me to stay put (even when i get the itch to look around). Shes ok with me making less than maybe I could elsewhere, for the flexibility. She's ok with taking on more hours.. what in the name of pigs flying is going on??

funny about your experience int he market blonde. Mine is the opposite. buy high and wait 63 years for the value to come back up. at least my rate is kinda low? I'm somewhat anti real estate, sour grapes.


----------



## MEM2020

Zillow shows up to date transactions of actual sales in our metro area. While not perfect, it enables you to get a pretty good sense of value per square foot. You will want to normalize for lot size, and major factors like fronting a busy road. But other than that, it should get you to within 10%. 

What is the basis for B2's estimate of your house value? How did she come up with the number? 




BostonBruins32 said:


> blonde, john, everyone.. I'm not buying a house anytime soon. Good school system, something we can afford..yep yep. agreed. not now though.
> 
> jeez you sound like my wife. I give an inch ( i atleast look at the house online when she sends it to me) and next thing you know shes asking me what our credit score is. I'm fine dreaming. We can drive by homes and admire or mock them. Thats fine. But unfortunately it always gets her engine going with regards to lets sell and buy. As I said, I don't have to do too much to argue with her on this. our home's value and our buying power should shut the door on her pretty quick.
> 
> although i do like the initiative she is showing, "hmm if i want a bigger house, i have to work more. ". I've always been the hyper motivated one, so its good to see her match it. I remember after B3 was born, I took on second job so she could stay home full time. She was thankful. Its funny, shes always pushed me that i'm worth more, but my current job offers such flexibility, and good enough pay, that shes finally telling me to stay put (even when i get the itch to look around). Shes ok with me making less than maybe I could elsewhere, for the flexibility. She's ok with taking on more hours.. what in the name of pigs flying is going on??
> 
> funny about your experience int he market blonde. Mine is the opposite. buy high and wait 63 years for the value to come back up. at least my rate is kinda low? I'm somewhat anti real estate, sour grapes.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Good chance that she's consciously (subconsciously) using conversations about the house to take your marital temperature. 

I can't emphasize this enough: You are not helping anyone by pretending the marriage is ok, when you are not ok with it. 

I understand the general concept of letting your partner dream. And also get the fact that you like her proactive mindset:  we need more money so I will have to make it. 

That said, you now have sufficient information to ask yourself an important question. Are you ok with the current status quo, on an open ended basis? As in, for the rest of your life? 

Because engaging in house talk is yet one more signal - from you to B2 - that you will tolerate the status quo open ended. I guess one benefit of all this is that you get to see the type marriage she wants, when she's under no duress. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> blonde, john, everyone.. I'm not buying a house anytime soon. Good school system, something we can afford..yep yep. agreed. not now though.
> 
> jeez you sound like my wife. I give an inch ( i atleast look at the house online when she sends it to me) and next thing you know shes asking me what our credit score is. I'm fine dreaming. We can drive by homes and admire or mock them. Thats fine. But unfortunately it always gets her engine going with regards to lets sell and buy. As I said, I don't have to do too much to argue with her on this. our home's value and our buying power should shut the door on her pretty quick.
> 
> although i do like the initiative she is showing, "hmm if i want a bigger house, i have to work more. ". I've always been the hyper motivated one, so its good to see her match it. I remember after B3 was born, I took on second job so she could stay home full time. She was thankful. Its funny, shes always pushed me that i'm worth more, but my current job offers such flexibility, and good enough pay, that shes finally telling me to stay put (even when i get the itch to look around). Shes ok with me making less than maybe I could elsewhere, for the flexibility. She's ok with taking on more hours.. what in the name of pigs flying is going on??
> 
> funny about your experience int he market blonde. Mine is the opposite. buy high and wait 63 years for the value to come back up. at least my rate is kinda low? I'm somewhat anti real estate, sour grapes.


----------



## LongWalk

:iagree:

Checking the martial temperature is a good take. A new and better home is a project. Do you suppose a girlfriend confidant – don't know if she them but if she did – might ask her if the new house would improve the romance (sex) in your marriage, what do you suppose her answer would be?

Would the new house also help win you over to a new baby in your wife's opinion?

Isn't the new house sort of shxt test for you to graduate to a higher status as the guy trying to date a girl playing hard to get?

Part of me tries to understand that some women are LD by nature, but still I suspect that they are not LD for all males. For the right male they will discover their libido, unless they are verging on asexual.

It is also very striking that your wife, on the extremely rare occasions that she initiates makes just a few moves and you immediately are ready to take the role of lover like an unemployed actor whose agent tells him he's a valued client once a year with a Christmas card.

Why does she just assume that you are there for her sexually when she is not there for you? The level of selfishness is extreme. Your postings show a great deal of empathy. You are able do put yourself in her shoes on many counts. Of course she may be incapable of empathy. If that is true, doesn't it frighten you to feel that your happiness is bound to a person who simply is unable to care about you?

Also, if your wife's libido should pick up at some point, is there a danger that she will get you on board in your marriage and then return to the sexless mode?


----------



## jld

I agree that the house project does not solve the underlying problems in the marriage. It is probably distracting, though.

We've gone through times of not much money, and it never affected our sex life. I just basically like dh, and am attracted to him. I respect his character. That is probably the true basis for my attraction to him.

Those are the fundamentals, BB. Those are the things you and Mrs. BB need to straighten out.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> Good chance that she's consciously (subconsciously) using conversations about the house to take your marital temperature.
> 
> I can't emphasize this enough: You are not helping anyone by pretending the marriage is ok, when you are not ok with it.
> 
> I understand the general concept of letting your partner dream. And also get the fact that you like her proactive mindset: we need more money so I will have to make it.
> 
> That said, you now have sufficient information to ask yourself an important question. Are you ok with the current status quo, on an open ended basis? As in, for the rest of your life?
> 
> Because engaging in house talk is yet one more signal - from you to B2 - that you will tolerate the status quo open ended. I guess one benefit of all this is that you get to see the type marriage she wants, when she's under no duress.


I'm not sure how I'm engaging in house talk here. The very most I'm doing is if she shows me a house, I look and say "cool". I could ignore her or say dont show me. I'm not engaging in any selling talk or buying talk or anything. The only thing I could do is when she shows me a house on her ipad, I could say "we're not buying a house anytime soon so stop looking and showing me". I feel like thats a fight waiting to happen, for no reason.

If she were to show me a house onlien and say "lets go look at it". Then I'd say no thank you. If she were to say lets put our house up for sale next month, I'd say no thank you. If she were to ask to inquire about lending power, I'd say no thank you. Simply viewing the house when she points one out and saying "nice" or "cool house" is barely engaging. 

Regardless I get your point. If we proceed with a house and B4, its very likely that the package I have now could remain for the rest of my life. It could even worsen, if you project that she may be on her temporary best behavior with ill intent. For this very reason, short track record of better behavior, I simply can't buy or procreate. I have years of bad experience, and months of good experience. 

I also get LongWalk's point. There is something deeply disturbing to me about the empathy. This lack of empathy is rich in her blood, and as I've pointed out is very alive with those she's closest to. To be very honest, I wish I had clearer lenses prior to marriage on this front. I've seen it with her parents and her, but I always just assumed it was one off ish. I also heard her b*tch side around her parents and brother before marriage, but I assumed it was a dynamic between THEM, not between anyone shes close to. 

With regards to acceptance of her sexual initiation: I am really not here for tit for tat games. historically, I am in the mood daily. For much of the time, I could even be frustrated with her but still int he mood. If she initiates, thats a turn on, even if only physical for that moment. If I felt deeply "not int he mood" I would reject it. I don't think she loves me more or is into me more when she initiates. I don't think that deeply about it.

With regards to her libido: I still havent figured out her libido and the nature of how LD she is. I'm sort of with you regarding the idea that LD would go awway for the right man. I've also pulsed some of my other friends with kids and 90% of them are having sex monthly or 2x per month. They all chalk it up to "hey thats married women". It almost makes me feel bad for questioning it. 

I initiated 2 nights ago. Pretty direct to be honest. It had been like 40 days and I was just in the mood. It took no effort at all and her response was very good. I got up to go to bed before her. Laid there for 5 minutes, came out of the bedroom and said "you should come to bed now". She smiled, and quickly got up and came in. Odd thing is that her mom was on her way over after 2nd shift (she sleeps over on tues nights to watch B3 in the morning). I sort of thought B2 would use this perfectly good opportunity to say "no my mom will be here any minute". So while there was a 40 day layoff from sex, I didnt initiate at all, I haven't been rejected for sex since december or january? I forgot. We've had weekly sex, bi weekly sex, monthly sex, sex twice in 5 days..etc.. a variety of timelines in the past 5-6 months. No rejections though.

So with the sex life, 2 points:
-I'm not interested in games. Does she want this, is she initiating, should I? should I now? later? is she in the mood? I'm just doing what I want whenever I want and not reading into anything. 
-Because its only been "healthy" for 5-6 months, I'm not taking it to the bank. I still view her as LD for me until there is more of a time frame.

And I shoudl point out that the house and B4 is less about sex than it is about a bigger picture. I've said this before, but to reiterate: I still have relationship trust issues from her "time away" back in October. I have concerns about her leaning on someone else emotionally. But most importantly are 3 main concerns: 
-Does she love me or the package? 
-What would it take for her to want time away again? My guess is the first time is the hardest. second time would be easier. I worry about her delaying an inevitable sonic boom.
-What do I expect from love? I havent sorted this out. I expect something different than she has historically given. Who's problem is this?


----------



## jld

You are all in your early 30s? And your friends are having sex only once or twice a month? 

I am stunned. That absolutely stuns me.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

> With regards to her libido: I still havent figured out her libido and the nature of how LD she is. I'm sort of with you regarding the idea that LD would go awway for the right man. I've also pulsed some of my other friends with kids and *90% of them are having sex monthly or 2x per month. They all chalk it up to "hey thats married women". It almost makes me feel bad for questioning it.*
> 
> I initiated 2 nights ago. Pretty direct to be honest. *It had been like 40 days* and I was just in the mood. It took no effort at all and her response was very good. I got up to go to bed before her. Laid there for 5 minutes, came out of the bedroom and said "you should come to bed now". She smiled, and quickly got up and came in. Odd thing is that her mom was on her way over after 2nd shift (she sleeps over on tues nights to watch B3 in the morning). I sort of thought B2 would use this perfectly good opportunity to say "no my mom will be here any minute". So while there was a 40 day layoff from sex, I didnt initiate at all, I haven't been rejected for sex since december or january? I forgot. We've had weekly sex, bi weekly sex, monthly sex, sex twice in 5 days..etc.. a variety of timelines in the past 5-6 months. No rejections though.
> 
> So with the sex life, 2 points:
> -I'm not interested in games. Does she want this, is she initiating, should I? should I now? later? is she in the mood? I'm just doing what I want whenever I want and not reading into anything.
> -*Because its only been "healthy" for 5-6 months, I'm not taking it to the bank. I still view her as LD for me until there is more of a time frame.*


I don't talk details about my sex life with our friends, but from some of the joking around we do it sounds like the people I know get sex more frequently than once per month.

I guess the question that I have is: If she is no longer refusing you whenever you initiate, is she always into it? Are you satisfied afterwards? If yes to both, then I'd start upping the frequency over a period of time. You let 40 days elapse from the last time you initiated. Try waiting for no more than 20 days the next time, then drop it to 10 the next time, then 5, then ramp up from there. Or...just start upping the frequency to once a week the first week, then twice/week the next week and take it from there. Overall, it seems like your wife is liking the fact that you are standing up for yourself more.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> I've also pulsed some of my other friends with kids and 90% of them are having sex monthly or 2x per month. They all chalk it up to "hey thats married women". It almost makes me feel bad for questioning it.


I'm not sure I believe them. My H always claims "it's been weeks!" Always. And for us it is fairly regular twice a week. I had a missionary tenant approach me once about how wrong it is for the M bed to be sexless and an H's right to force it. It came across alarming such that I became very concerned about his M and tactfully inquire as to whether there was force (rape) going on. H had been whining. When I found out I laughed about the convincing yarn he spins and told the tenant he has absolutely NO IDEA about the reality of the situation...

One time when I first started nursing school he got into this really serious sit down mode about how our marriage was in jeopardy over the sexlessness. It had been 5 days (due to lots of circumstantial stress). I asked a classmate about it and she said "Geez. Give him a bottle of lotion and tell him to take care of it"

So when someone claims sexlessness, IME it is all wrapped up in their perception. Haven't got their rocks off in a few days=sexless.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> You are all in your early 30s? And your friends are having sex only once or twice a month?
> 
> 
> 
> I am stunned. That absolutely stuns me.



I think Kinsey and Masters&Johnson got this wrong. Sex was a lot more forthcoming in the old days because people had more time.

When I hear about the top performers having sex twice a day every day etc my first thought is always "trust fund babies" 

Perhaps it's natures way of telling us we need to slow down...


----------



## BostonBruins32

totally agree blonde.

its all perception. Universally, there is a drop off in sex after marriage. Just from what I hear, once a week would be on the higher end. I think once a week would be normal/minimum for couples without young kids. Most of my friends have kids from 5 months old to 5 years old. So when they say sex has died down, I believe it. 

One friend said that his wife said they are "like roomates" etc. they have 2 kids both under 3. Now this guy had a short history of cheating on her prior to marriage, maybe into marriage? She never found out..but it made me wonder. My wife likes him as a person but gets fiercly mad at his morales. She thinks he still cheats and hes a dirt bag etc etc. 

I find it interesting. I thought he was being kind of a jerk for cheating but I never let that factor into our friendship, its his marriage not mine. But after hearing him open up about it recently, regarding how his wife and previously fiance viewed thier relationship, I'm not shocked he cheated on her. He probably shouldnt have married her, but he faces the issue of her cold shouldering him with sex and not noticing the fantastic shape this guy is in (muscular dude). 

I have to say, I've had more empathy for his situation after learning more about the state of his marriage and relationship before. I don't condone his cheating, but I also have a better understanding of some of the reasons he got there.


When I reflect on my last few years, I'm shocked I havent turned to cheating. I don't know why, but its just not in my agenda. If someone told you they felt unloved, unattractive, and felt like thier spouse was always mad at them for years, you'd probably not be shocked if they cheated. I never did. Never even entertained it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> You are all in your early 30s? And your friends are having sex only once or twice a month?
> 
> I am stunned. That absolutely stuns me.


Doesnt stun me at all. Sort of what I expected. Early part of my relationship was 2x per week or so. maybe 3x per week for the first 6 months. so for it to drop from that, to weekly, to monthly ish after kids, doesnt surprise me.

if anything it makes me wonder why I was so displeased with my rate.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Doesnt stun me at all. Sort of what I expected. Early part of my relationship was 2x per week or so. maybe 3x per week for the first 6 months. so for it to drop from that, to weekly, to monthly ish after kids, doesnt surprise me.
> 
> if anything it makes me wonder why I was so displeased with my rate.


Well, if you can be happy with that, more power to you.

At our busiest times, times I was worn out with little kids, it was still at least once a week. I think 2-3x weekly is normal.

But obviously, it is whatever makes a couple happy.


----------



## PieceOfSky

LongWalk said:


> Why does she just assume that you are there for her sexually when she is not there for you? The level of selfishness is extreme. Your postings show a great deal of empathy. You are able do put yourself in her shoes on many counts. Of course she may be incapable of empathy. If that is true, doesn't it frighten you to feel that your happiness is bound to a person who simply is unable to care about you?





BB, that's the sort of mismatch I think I have dealt with for twenty years. It only feels worse as time goes on. I hope the problems in your marriage are less intractable. There will never be a better time to stop and come to a conscious decision about the degree of mismatch of this sort that you two have.

Regarding the two different perspectives on the house shopping you and MEM have, I'll throw this out...with a warning in advance that I am not confident I have read the situation correctly, so ymmv:

If the state of your marriage is hurting you, and she is not putting energy towards solving it but rather putting energy into making your lives more difficult to separate (more debt, moving, kids) and you are just casually watching her apply that energy without taking clear assertive steps yourself to put the relationship issues in the forefront and making them your and her number one priority, then you both are evading a matter that MUST be resolved if you are going to grow together rather than apart. IF that is what is going on, it doesn't end well.

Does it ever feel like the house shopping or her wanting another kid is a bit like her making a dare or doubling a bet, partly to convince you and partly to convince herself everything is OK. (Sorry if that's an odd question. Just trying to get a sense of how much the house shopping or B4 ideas "fit" or "don't fit" with your sense of the marriage's health.)


----------



## BostonBruins32

I take her house browsing online with a grain of salt. Its unrelated to the health of our marriage. I actually don't even know if the house shopping or baby wanting is an indication of the health of the marriage in HER eyes. 

She may view the marriage as unhealthy but still want a new house. I'm not sure. Sort of going back to my bigger point. Is she in this marriage because she loves me, or is this part of the bigger plan she has personally? 2.5 kids, white fence, dog, big house, smiles. etc.. 

She may also view the marriage as better or healed to some degree. She expressed before that the space, the counseling, and changes have all had an impact in improvement. During a deep conversations he has said these things. Unfortunately, she says these things, but then other small comments or actions make me think she doesnt really feel the improvement. 

just for the record. i'm not engaging in a house shopping process. again, my only involvement is a head nod or a "nice" when she shows me a photo of a house. I dont ask about it, size location etc.. I literally one word it and let her keep looking. IF she were to ask to pursue it, I would give her my opinion "I'm not interested in pursuing a new house"


----------



## naiveonedave

FWIW - monthly or 2x/month seems way too low. Especially if you have more than a few people give you this information. 1x/month is essentailly a sexless marriage (I know the # is 10/year, but 12 is essentially 10).

I still honestly think you need to not take no for an answer so easily and initiate weekly or more often. And don't get defensive when it doesn't work. Seems like your current success rate is >>50% when you initiate.


----------



## BostonBruins32

naiveonedave said:


> FWIW - monthly or 2x/month seems way too low. Especially if you have more than a few people give you this information. 1x/month is essentailly a sexless marriage (I know the # is 10/year, but 12 is essentially 10).
> 
> I still honestly think you need to not take no for an answer so easily and initiate weekly or more often. And don't get defensive when it doesn't work. Seems like your current success rate is >>50% when you initiate.


success rate is like 90-100% since January. Ranging from weekly, to bi weekly, to monthly. Totally ok.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm not sure how I'm engaging in house talk here. The very most I'm doing is if she shows me a house, I look and say "cool". I could ignore her or say dont show me. I'm not engaging in any selling talk or buying talk or anything. The only thing I could do is when she shows me a house on her ipad, I could say "we're not buying a house anytime soon so stop looking and showing me". I feel like thats a fight waiting to happen, for no reason.


This is you being passive again. No different than the kid talk. She brings it up and you side step to avoid an uncomfortable situation. You know what she is wanting and meaning, but you play dumb and use words so you can say you never technically agreed even though you never disagreed. 

As much as she has issues, so do you. You need to be able to say what you mean and she needs to be able to trust that you will do that. Right now, she can't because you won't. In view of everything, this is a form of dishonesty because you don't want to upset her. You want honesty from her yet refuse to give it to her. Why the double standard?


----------



## GettingIt_2

Tall Average Guy said:


> This is you being passive again. No different than the kid talk. She brings it up and you side step to avoid an uncomfortable situation. *You know what she is wanting and meaning, but you play dumb and use words so you can say you never technically agreed even though you never disagreed. *
> 
> *As much as she has issues, so do you. You need to be able to say what you mean and she needs to be able to trust that you will do that. *Right now, she can't because you won't. In view of everything, this is a form of dishonesty because you don't want to upset her. *You want honesty from her yet refuse to give it to her.* Why the double standard?


QFT--most particularly what I bolded. 

BB, do not underestimate the damage that your passivity is doing. You don't have to be a b*stard about it, but not letting her know _exactly_ where you stand on the house issue (and the kid issue, and the "time away" issue, and the lack of empathy issue) is going to bite you in the azz one of these days. She is taking something very different away from your behavior than what you intend to communicate. NOT saying what you *don't* feel is not the same as SAYING what you *do* feel. In other words, omission is not communication.

ETA: Low empathy individuals are not good as "reading between the lines." And even if they are good at it, they won't do a thing with the info they glean unless it's to their benefit. You must be responsible for making your position crystal clear.


----------



## Trickster

Hey BB-

My wife did something similar with the house thing. No matter how I protested buying a home because weren't financially ready. she kept on looking on-line for homes. Every time she found one she liked, she wanted me to just "look" at it... So to keep the peace, I apeased her and looked... She even promised to get a job if we bought a home and were settled. She said she would do any job. She would take it...She would do all the leg work, she would pack, take care of all the utilities..... I just had to get approved for the loan...

PERFECT....

I am self employed and there was no way I would get approved... Other people in my field were trying for years to get approved with no luck... I was off the hook... I didn't have to be the bad guy...yay

I GOT APPROVED... I have no idea how that happened...

True to her word, after 6 months of looking, she got a job with perfect mom hours and great pay. It lasted for 3 weeks then she quit...

That was when I found TAM... I have been frustrated ever since...

it took two more years until she got a part time job and quit that as well.



We have been in our home for 4 years now and the job she has now pays less than the job 3 1/2 years ago.

Overall, it was a good move. The economy is great, my business is going well, and our mortgage is less than the rent in the area... We just have many home improvement projects we have to do soon...more debt on the way...


----------



## Tall Average Guy

GettingIt said:


> QFT--most particularly what I bolded.
> 
> BB, do not underestimate the damage that your passivity is doing. You don't have to be a b*stard about it, but not letting her know _exactly_ where you stand on the house issue (and the kid issue, and the "time away" issue, and the lack of empathy issue) is going to bite you in the azz one of these days. *She is taking something very different away from your behavior than what you intend to communicate. * NOT saying what you *don't* feel is not the same as SAYING what you *do* feel. In other words, omission is not communication.


And BB32 knows it. This is where his dishonesty comes into play. He absolutely knows how she is interpreting his comments but he refuses to correct her. So while he is not lying, he is being dishonest.


----------



## LongWalk

Trickster, did the new house supply an aphrodisiac effect?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
You were at weekly or better, with a success rate over 50%, and then you totally stopped initiating for 40+ days. 

Why?

It seemed to correlate to B2 being pretty nasty to you after returning from a baby shower or two. Was there more to it than that? 

Was B2 radiating a 'shut down' vibe at you during those 40 days? Or was she giving you a crappy attitude about it when you were initiating weekly even though she was not rejecting you? 

I realize that B2 has stonewalled you in the past when you have attempted to have real communication about your bedroom disconnect. And trust me, having been on the receiving end of a 2 meter thick stonewall myself, I get why you are reluctant to try again. 

That said, follow some simple logic:
- B2 knows that your desire for her is daily
- And that you've said weekly is your bare minimum
- And she is certainly comfortable going after whatever she wants including sex - I think you got some action in the shower a couple months back 

Therefore: There's something (or more than one something) about the experience that she dislikes. She's sort of accepted the idea that you require a minimum frequency to be ok with the marriage but she's also conveyed to you that she is mostly just tolerating it. 

She spoke the truth in counseling when she said: I just don't really like sex. 

Unless you actually get her to open up about why she doesn't like it, you're always going to be anxious and uncertain about that part of your marriage. And she will always be ducking, dodging and avoiding while you are always pursuing, guessing and hoping that you might get lucky tonight. 

To put this a different way: you have created enough leverage to get your wife to let you have sex with her weekly. That won't last. 

The only lasting solution is one where your wife desires sex because:
1. She cares about you enough to want to please you and
2. The actual experience itself is at least ok for her

Item (1) is totally different than divorce avoidance. (1) is what drives much/most of your kindness towards her. As for item (2), well you can pretend it's not a big deal, but it is. 



I don't know who your friends are, I only know that 1-2 a month is total crap for you healthy people. Maybe the first year after a child if Mom is breast feeding, but other than that: at 1-2 times per month, young children are just the excuse the LD spouse is using. 

As for the notion that parents are too busy to .....

LMAO. The average married person spends many, many hours on Facebook, and watching tv each month. The idea they can't fit sex in 2-3 times a week because they are too busy is simply silly. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> I take her house browsing online with a grain of salt. Its unrelated to the health of our marriage. I actually don't even know if the house shopping or baby wanting is an indication of the health of the marriage in HER eyes.
> 
> She may view the marriage as unhealthy but still want a new house. I'm not sure. Sort of going back to my bigger point. Is she in this marriage because she loves me, or is this part of the bigger plan she has personally? 2.5 kids, white fence, dog, big house, smiles. etc..
> 
> She may also view the marriage as better or healed to some degree. She expressed before that the space, the counseling, and changes have all had an impact in improvement. During a deep conversations he has said these things. Unfortunately, she says these things, but then other small comments or actions make me think she doesnt really feel the improvement.
> 
> just for the record. i'm not engaging in a house shopping process. again, my only involvement is a head nod or a "nice" when she shows me a photo of a house. I dont ask about it, size location etc.. I literally one word it and let her keep looking. IF she were to ask to pursue it, I would give her my opinion "I'm not interested in pursuing a new house"


----------



## WorkingOnMe

LongWalk said:


> Trickster, did the new house supply an aphrodisiac effect?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_



Lol


----------



## LongWalk

BB, with all respect, I think you have defined the problem of your unsatisfying marriage through the exploration of this threat.

1) Lack of passionate sex is in and of itself a problem. You clearly see that because an upswing in sex has not stilled your fears that this relationship will not be meaningful to you in the long run.

2) You wonder about her ability to love you as an individual man and to love in general. This is of course more fundamentally disturbing. If it were merely sex but she loved you deeply, then it wouldn't be so bad, but if she simply lacks this feeling, nothing will make up for it.

My paternal grandmother was a charming narcissistic person. My grandfather had two strokes and spent the last 11 years of his life lying bed of sitting in a chair. Though some part of his personality remained, he could only mumble. He ate, slept, observed, vegetated while my grandmother watched TV and played majong. She used to talk to him sometimes. I guess she loved him in her way. His care, which included carefully tying plastic bags around his penis to catch the urine, was a duty that she did not question.

My mother is doing much the same with my father who has Alzheimer's. 

Would your wife care for you or stick you in a care facility to get rid of you if you should have stroke or dementia?


----------



## MEM2020

QFT.

B repeatedly gave B2 cues about B4, and yet she claimed to be astonished when he finally was direct with her. 

She either doesn't pick up on cues or ignores those she dislikes. 

When she talks about the house. 
Boston sees this as: harmless wishful thinking 
B2: sees his nods as confirmation the marriage is healthy 




GettingIt said:


> QFT--most particularly what I bolded.
> 
> BB, do not underestimate the damage that your passivity is doing. You don't have to be a b*stard about it, but not letting her know _exactly_ where you stand on the house issue (and the kid issue, and the "time away" issue, and the lack of empathy issue) is going to bite you in the azz one of these days. She is taking something very different away from your behavior than what you intend to communicate. NOT saying what you *don't* feel is not the same as SAYING what you *do* feel. In other words, omission is not communication.
> 
> ETA: Low empathy individuals are not good as "reading between the lines." And even if they are good at it, they won't do a thing with the info they glean unless it's to their benefit. You must be responsible for making your position crystal clear.


----------



## john117

MEM, time and desire are not the only determinants of whether sex occur. For men it's usually time. For women it's much more emotional, stars have to align just so, etc.

Some women can't compartmentalize well and that's what causes a lot of the issues we face. There is absolutely no way to break the cycle. 

If your life is "simple" there is mental clarity to have sex. If not, and you have to deal with life first then have sex, things get ugly in a hurry.


----------



## Trickster

LongWalk said:


> Trickster, did the new house supply an aphrodisiac effect?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


No...

Just wanted to make her happy... My bad


----------



## MEM2020

John,
Was that your experience during the good 25 years of your marriage? 

Men and women are both remarkably capable of compartmentalizing when it comes to their priorities. 

M2 has told me plenty of times that she usually had a bunch of random stuff going on in her head when we got in bed at night. And that she just let the action start knowing that as she got turned on, the noise level background thoughts would disappear. 

This of course requires making a conscious choice to put your partner first, at least for the couple minutes needed to warm up. 

That's what you do, gladly do, when you love someone. 



john117 said:


> MEM, time and desire are not the only determinants of whether sex occur. For men it's usually time. For women it's much more emotional, stars have to align just so, etc.
> 
> Some women can't compartmentalize well and that's what causes a lot of the issues we face. There is absolutely no way to break the cycle.
> 
> If your life is "simple" there is mental clarity to have sex. If not, and you have to deal with life first then have sex, things get ugly in a hurry.


----------



## john117

My experience as a psychologist - specifically the kind that works on mental processes and decision analysis - as well as my own good years indicates the vast majority of women are not as good as men vis a vis compartmentalizing.

It's that simple. With proper training, job related decision making and performance presents no problems (that's why women perform just as well in heavy stress roles that require the training ie surgeon, astronaut, etc)

It's not simply "random thoughts" that need to be excoriated but more major stuff. Back in 2009 my company had some serious layoffs as did J2's. Having the thread of layoffs is not a set of random thoughts but a serious issue. For men sex does not consider this, for women it does. It's not a question of love overcoming fear, but coexisting with it.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blonde said:


> So when someone claims sexlessness, IME it is all wrapped up in their perception. Haven't got their rocks off in a few days=sexless.


If only that were always true.


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> Doesnt stun me at all. Sort of what I expected. Early part of my relationship was 2x per week or so. maybe 3x per week for the first 6 months. so for it to drop from that, to weekly, to monthly ish after kids, doesnt surprise me.
> 
> *if anything it makes me wonder why I was so displeased with my rate.*


It's not the numbers that usually bother me, though, they can be a bit of a 2x4 across my head when I let myself think about them.

Rather, it's the chronic rejections that made the numbers get low in the first place, and then, my own self-imposed rejections that keep them low. (Self-imposed rejections, i.e. I don't even let my self get my hopes up or ask. Seems easier to take after awhile.)

And it is not that the rejections are a denial of a physical act, they are a denial of the connection and intimacy I seek.

And, that she is willing, even determined, to deny me that connection and intimacy, is the kernel of truth that causes the pain.

That she is willing to do the "minimum" necessary -- whatever that is be it sex or time together or behaving decently at times -- to keep me around, despite her denial of a real connection and intimacy, is the truth that makes me angry and sad, mostly at myself.

Frequency is just a number. It's the personal truths behind your number that tells you what it means.


----------



## Trickster

PieceOfSky said:


> It's not the numbers that usually bother me, though, they can be a bit of a 2x4 across my head when I let myself think about them.
> 
> Rather, it's the chronic rejections that made the numbers get low in the first place, and then, my own self-imposed rejections that keep them low. (Self-imposed rejections, i.e. I don't even let my self get my hopes up or ask. Seems easier to take after awhile.)
> 
> And it is not that the rejections are a denial of a physical act, they are a denial of the connection and intimacy I seek.
> 
> And, that she is willing, even determined, to deny me that connection and intimacy, is the kernel of truth that causes the pain.
> 
> That she is willing to do the "minimum" necessary -- whatever that is be it sex or time together or behaving decently at times -- to keep me around, despite her denial of a real connection and intimacy, is the truth that makes me angry and sad, mostly at myself.
> 
> Frequency is just a number. It's the personal truths behind your number that tells you what it means.



This reminds me what happens with our daughter. For a few days, I told her to clean her room and she never got to it. So I told her one last time to clean her room. I said something like...clean your room or or you're not going to like what I will do... She 
replied, " what are you going to do daddy".

I had to laugh at myself...She wanted to know if what I was going to be worth her not cleaning her room.

my wife dies the same Sky. She seems to know my minimum requirements. She seems to know When I am frustrated from no sex and will initiate. 

What I notice is that I am not as frustrated anymore. Not like before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> totally agree blonde.
> 
> its all perception. Universally, there is a drop off in sex after marriage.


Universally :rofl:

What would that look like for those of us who abstained before M?

See in my case, the honeymoon was several times a day. But the honeymoon was after a long long abstinence (2M for me 2Y for him) and it was on a lovely relaxing vacation when we were in the throes of bliss stage of romantic love....

I guess people who engage in premarital sex use that all up before the M? IDK

Maybe the rate goes up when the children are not so young? IDK All I have is my experience and statistics one reads here and there that the average is in the 1-2Xweek range for M couples. 

I agree with the posts above that stress affects a woman's libido. When we had that 5 day stretch (where we literally did not have more than 15minutes alone together) I told H that stress dampens my libido and he told me that sex is a stress reducer for him so he wants to do it MORE when there is stress in his life.

Shrug. I guess men should marry other men? Then they can do it like rabbits when there is stress in their lives instead of being forced to suffer or jump through hoops attempting to alleviate W stress


----------



## PieceOfSky

sigh. 5 day stretch...



I interrupt this thread to say, Blonde, your husband may look like George Clooney, but he is a crazy looney if he ever neglected you.



Now, back to your regularly scheduled postings.


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> Shrug. I guess men should marry other men? Then they can do it like rabbits when there is stress in their lives instead of being forced to suffer or jump through hoops attempting to alleviate W stress



Sign me up


----------



## Blonde

Go for it dude! Sometimes I think that it would solve so many problems.  Mars men UNITE! MGTOW. We Hunted the Mammoth


----------



## Faithful Wife

john117 said:


> Sign me up


Ok, but I want the toaster oven for this, not Blonde. I'll give her a credit in my report.


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok, but I want the toaster oven for this, not Blonde. I'll give her a credit in my report.


:lol:

OMG!!!!

:rofl:


----------



## john117

I could probably smuggle some prototype ovens out of the lab 

I think my marriage would look like this

View attachment 23314


----------



## Faithful Wife

I actually just recently found this lovely blog...this particular post has a lot of pictures along these lines. (They are actually very beautiful pictures and this guy is doing a really cool historical thing with them.) Enjoy, John!

The Irreverent Psychologist: Vintage Men and Relationships


----------



## PieceOfSky

john117 said:


> I could probably smuggle some prototype ovens out of the lab
> 
> I think my marriage would look like this
> 
> View attachment 23314







The swiftness of your response with photograph suggests you have been thinking this through for some time now.



If you are searching for an optimal solution, I can't help feeling you are stuck in a local minima. Just a feeling though.


----------



## Anon Pink

Faithful Wife said:


> I actually just recently found this lovely blog...this particular post has a lot of pictures along these lines. (They are actually very beautiful pictures and this guy is doing a really cool historical thing with them.) Enjoy, John!
> 
> The Irreverent Psychologist: Vintage Men and Relationships


That was fascinating reading!

Another toaster over for ya! :rofl:


----------



## john117

PieceOfSky said:


> The swiftness of your response with photograph suggests you have been thinking this through for some time now.
> .



Just google images for "toaster oven funny" 

I'm a loner at heart but enjoy the company of some awesome male friends. Women friends too.


----------



## boyjeff

BostonBruins32 said:


> I've stopped initiating on the premise of a quote i read "why woudl you want to have sex with someone who doesnt want to have sex with you". been almost 40 days now since sexual activity.


a whole 40 days huh, how do you do it :lol: 

seriously this entire subject is funny, every thread is about sexless marriages and disinterested wives. Lets hope virtual reality steps in and fills the gap, because wives aren't going to start finding husbands they "tolerate" to be sexually desirable.


----------



## Blonde

boyjeff said:


> every thread is about sexless marriages and disinterested wives.


correlation does not imply causation

From my observation of M forums, the majority of men only take an interest in M improvement if the sex is off. The ones who are having regular sex don't post here seeking help.

BB isn't posting. BB also stated above that he had sex every time he initiated in the past 5-6 months. If he didn't have sex in 40 days its his own fault IMO because he chose not to initiate.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> BB isn't posting. BB also stated above that he had sex every time he initiated in the past 5-6 months. If he didn't have sex in 40 days its his own fault IMO because he chose not to initiate.


Yes and no. Yes, he could get sex by initiating. But he believes (rightly or wrongly) that it is pity sex, so he wants her to step up and show him that she wants sex with him. She has not.


----------



## boyjeff

Blonde said:


> The ones who are having regular sex don't post here seeking help.


go look in the finance thread and see if your assessment holds.

the reality is that cohabitation leads to friction, throw in kids, work, finances, and the day to day drag, and what you end up with is 2 people who tolerate each others faults for the sake of the greater good, which usually means the kids. 

how compelled would you be to have sex with someone you tolerated vs someone you were really in to? 

You want to end sexual activity, just get married its a sure fire cure.


----------



## Blonde

Tall Average Guy said:


> Yes and no. Yes, he could get sex by initiating. But he believes (rightly or wrongly) that it is pity sex, so he wants her to step up and show him that she wants sex with him. She has not.


My understanding of "pity sex" is that the O's are not mutual. Several women on this thread have shared that their desire is *responsive*

Fraid I think BB has too many false expectations from porn use and he should man up, initiate, and give his wife O's *at least* once a week


----------



## jld

boyjeff said:


> You want to end sexual activity, just get married its a sure fire cure.


That is not true. There are plenty of marriages that include an active sex life. 

If yours does not, ask yourself what you might be doing to cause that.


----------



## jld

Blonde said:


> My understanding of "pity sex" is that the O's are not mutual. Several women on this thread have shared that their desire is *responsive*
> 
> Fraid I think BB has too many false expectations from porn use and he should man up, initiate, and give his wife O's *at least* once a week


Did BB say he uses porn? 

I guess I didn't catch that from his posts.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Blonde said:


> Several women on this thread have shared that their desire is *responsive*


My husband's desire is responsive and mine is not. If we were both responsive only I think we'd be in serious trouble on the sex front. It's tough enough as it is.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

ScarletBegonias said:


> My husband's desire is responsive and mine is not. If we were both responsive only I think we'd be in serious trouble on the sex front. It's tough enough as it is.


:iagree:


----------



## boyjeff

jld said:


> There are plenty of marriages that include an active sex life.
> 
> If yours does not, ask yourself what you might be doing to cause that.


there is no doubt in my mind, or seemingly yours for that matter that I am the cause. 

but, I am the one who has changed. I have abandoned the expectation that anything is going to change between she and I and therefore assume there will be no sexual contact.

I am sure there are many marriages that have active sex lives after many decades together. in those cases the spouses have found true partners, unfortunately in my case i do not have a partnership but a dictatorship in which what my wife says, is what will be or else there will be hell to pay. 

Yes the fault is mine, I chose to be manipulated and lead to believe the sexual activity we had in the beginning of our relationship would be the norm. Never in my wildest dreams did I think that bearing children would turn my once demure and eager to please wife into a control-freak of nature. But she did, and there is so much resentment that has passed it is now beyond my imagination on how it would ever get to a better place. If it did, it would be the result of her 180 degree change in attitude, which seems unlikely. 

I do my duty, bide my time and wait for the inevitable change in whatever form it may be.


----------



## jld

I see you have a thread explaining your situation, jeff. I will take a look at it.

We focus on the person posting, because usually only one partner is here. We don't have any influence over the other partner. 

I think most of us posting really do want to help people, even if we seem harsh at times.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> My understanding of "pity sex" is that the O's are not mutual. Several women on this thread have shared that their desire is *responsive*
> 
> Fraid I think BB has too many false expectations from porn use and he should man up, initiate, and give his wife O's *at least* once a week


I understand the idea of responsive desire. But even women who are like that go through times when they are more aggressive and seek out sex with their husband (at least according to many of the women on these pages). She has not done that. 

So while he bears much of the blame, it is not all on him.


----------



## 1812overture

> I chose to be manipulated and lead to believe the sexual activity we had in the beginning of our relationship would be the norm. Never in my wildest dreams did I think that bearing children would turn my once demure and eager to please wife into a control-freak of nature. But she did, and there is so much resentment that has passed it is now beyond my imagination on how it would ever get to a better place. If it did, it would be the result of her 180 degree change in attitude, which seems unlikely.


 It's having children, not your affair, that created the change in her? I'm still working (sometimes with my wife, sometimes it seems despite her) to make physical affection, passion and sex a regular part of our life. We each have a ton of resentments, a lot of it from the imbalances of raising children, but I think we're getting better. 



Tall Average Guy said:


> I understand the idea of responsive desire. But even women who are like that go through times when they are more aggressive and seek out sex with their husband (at least according to many of the women on these pages). She has not done that.


Also important is that he gets (or got) "rejected" frequently. "She'll never initiate, but if I do she'll respond" doesn't work as a guiding principal when one is rejected 90% of the time or more. It also builds resentments, and if/when not addressed, resentments fester and create bigger problems.


----------



## MEM2020

Scarlet,
How well can you read your H?

If you misread him, how compassionate is he in declining your response? 

If there was a section on this in the DSM V, it might look like this:

LD interest level:
1. Clearly unavailable for a self specified reason (openly communicates a physical or emotional state of impairment such as headache, fatigue, etc.)
2. Non verbal communication of disinterest. Low energy level, lack of happy vibe directed at HD spouse. 
3. Neutral 
4. Radiates a happy, positive energy at their spouse. Responds positively to affection and eye contact. Is agreeable to sex if their HD partner initiates. 
5. Initiates in some manner that is clear to their HD partner. 

LD response to HD spouses initiation:
1. Rejects: Conveying irritation 
2. Rejects: Calm, firm, fast (no communication about why, no empathy)
3. Tolerates: Makes it clear they are just allowing their spouse to have sex with them. Could include sex without kissing, totally passive (dead fish) sex, etc. 
4. Defers to a nearby and specific date: Clearly looks forward to connecting despite being disinterested in the moment. And makes an effort to be kind about it. 
5. Responds positively and is engaged. 

(5) Does not necessarily mean the LD spouse is feeling raw desire/lust at the start. It means they want to connect and know their HD spouse will make the overall experience enjoyable for them. 

Some HD spouses have trouble reading their partners. And others can read them just fine, desire has simply left the marriage, and at most they get some type of pity (3) sex typically at the cost of numerous rejections. 

In an impaired situation, it's easy to engage in destructive communication. Often such communication is free of speech. 

Frequently initiating when you know your partner doesn't want to have sex sends a clear and destructive message. 

There's a story on another board that's really good. Actually I'd better describe it as terrific. 

This guy finally woke up and said:
- We can either have a healthy sex life or none at all. 
- While in the none at all stage, he outed his wife. He stopped letting her flirt with him in public (only to casually dismiss him in private) and told their friends and family they were in a sexless marriage and he wasn't at all ok with it. 
- His wife, who was accustomed to a steady stream of romantic dinners, gifts, (above and beyond assistance with housework) etc. was a bit stunned when all that stopped. And he instead redirected that energy towards himself. 
- After about a year of this, she told him she wanted to fix their marriage. 

And they did. During the repair stage she admitted to having created a standard straight out of a romance novel. For her to say yes, she needed:
- To be fully stress free
- To already be in the mood
- For him to have created a hugely romantic setting 

A nice thing about the story was how quickly she discovered her responsive desire and how accepting he was of her sincere kindness even when it wasn't always accompanied by a high level of passion. 



ScarletBegonias said:


> My husband's desire is responsive and mine is not. If we were both responsive only I think we'd be in serious trouble on the sex front. It's tough enough as it is.


----------



## MEM2020

A 90% rejection rate means something is profoundly broken. 

It's hard to believe the overall experience is positive for the person when they are saying no that frequently. 

Either that or it's a way to punish a spouse you are generally angry at. 



Tall Average Guy said:


> I understand the idea of responsive desire. But even women who are like that go through times when they are more aggressive and seek out sex with their husband (at least according to many of the women on these pages). She has not done that.
> 
> So while he bears much of the blame, it is not all on him.


----------



## treyvion

MEM11363 said:


> Scarlet,
> How well can you read your H?
> 
> If you misread him, how compassionate is he in declining your response?
> 
> If there was a section on this in the DSM V, it might look like this:
> 
> LD interest level:
> 1. Clearly unavailable for a self specified reason (openly communicates a physical or emotional state of impairment such as headache, fatigue, etc.)
> 2. Non verbal communication of disinterest. Low energy level, lack of happy vibe directed at HD spouse.
> 3. Neutral
> 4. Radiates a happy, positive energy at their spouse. Responds positively to affection and eye contact. Is agreeable to sex if their HD partner initiates.
> 5. Initiates in some manner that is clear to their HD partner.
> 
> LD response to HD spouses initiation:
> 1. Rejects: Conveying irritation
> 2. Rejects: Calm, firm, fast (no communication about why, no empathy)
> 3. Tolerates: Makes it clear they are just allowing their spouse to have sex with them. Could include sex without kissing, totally passive (dead fish) sex, etc.
> 4. Defers to a nearby and specific date: Clearly looks forward to connecting despite being disinterested in the moment. And makes an effort to be kind about it.
> 5. Responds positively and is engaged.
> 
> (5) Does not necessarily mean the LD spouse is feeling raw desire/lust at the start. It means they want to connect and know their HD spouse will make the overall experience enjoyable for them.
> 
> Some HD spouses have trouble reading their partners. And others can read them just fine, desire has simply left the marriage, and at most they get some type of pity (3) sex typically at the cost of numerous rejections.


Pity sex for some of us sexless for years would be a staggering IMPROVEMENT over masterbation. However when you are USED to getting sex on a somewhat "normal" basis, pity sex is "degrading". So you can feel worse than you did before the act. Many of us long term sexless men and women are to the stage where we just want to penetrate or be penetrated by a willing human being.



MEM11363 said:


> In an impaired situation, it's easy to engage in destructive communication. Often such communication is free of speech.
> 
> Frequently initiating when you know your partner doesn't want to have sex sends a clear and destructive message.
> 
> There's a story on another board that's really good. Actually I'd better describe it as terrific.
> 
> This guy finally woke up and said:
> - We can either have a healthy sex life or none at all.
> - While in the none at all stage, he outed his wife. He stopped letting her flirt with him in public (only to casually dismiss him in private) and told their friends and family they were in a sexless marriage and he wasn't at all ok with it.
> - His wife, who was accustomed to a steady stream of romantic dinners, gifts, (above and beyond assistance with housework) etc. was a bit stunned when all that stopped. And he instead redirected that energy towards himself.


That must have been a huge surplus of care and energy back to himself. If ontop of it he had applied sexual sprinklings from outside the relationship to maintain this part of his identity, i wouldn't have a problem with it.



MEM11363 said:


> - After about a year of this, she told him she wanted to fix their marriage.


She felt a void and likely a painful jealousy when he spent that time on himself. All that introspection and self enjoyment. What a big SHIFT.



MEM11363 said:


> And they did. During the repair stage she admitted to having created a standard straight out of a romance novel. For her to say yes, she needed:
> - To be fully stress free
> - To already be in the mood
> - For him to have created a hugely romantic setting
> 
> A nice thing about the story was how quickly she discovered her responsive desire and how accepting he was of her sincere kindness even when it wasn't always accompanied by a high level of passion.


Thing about it, is we aren't always going to make a perfectly romantic setting. This sounds sweet though. Many of us want our partners hot for us NO matter the setting or inconvenience. Even if we are at our worst, for their loins to be emblazened with raw lust towards us.


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> A 90% rejection rate means something is profoundly broken.


That is OLD news, Mem.

Unless your read it backwards?

Here is how things stand now:


BostonBruins32 said:


> success rate is like 90-100% since January. Ranging from weekly, to bi weekly, to monthly. Totally ok.


and BB is outta here... because, like I said, most men are not on here complaining if the sex is on


----------



## Blonde

I must be the only one on here who reads OP's posts


BostonBruins32 said:


> I haven't been rejected for sex since december or january? I forgot. We've had weekly sex, bi weekly sex, monthly sex, sex twice in 5 days..etc.. a variety of timelines in the past 5-6 months. No rejections though.


----------



## treyvion

Blonde said:


> That is OLD news, Mem.
> 
> Unless your read it backwards?
> 
> Here is how things stand now:
> 
> 
> and BB is outta here... because, like I said, most men are not on here complaining if the sex is on


Most people would leave the forum after several months of good sex and affection return.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blonde said:


> My understanding of "pity sex" is that the O's are not mutual. Several women on this thread have shared that their desire is *responsive*
> 
> Fraid I think BB has too many false expectations from porn use and he should man up, initiate, and give his wife O's *at least* once a week


I don't know what you mean by mutual O's.

I define pity sex as sex my wife is willing to have, despite her not wanting it or her even resenting it. It is depressing to put oneself in such a vulnerable position, only to be told later how awkward or non-connecting or unwanted it was, and be told how undesirable you are.

To give my wife an O, she first has to want to be there with me, or at least have her EA partner to fantasize about.


----------



## john117

Maybe B2 is preparing for the Battle of the Bulge, literally and figuratively...

Individual differences and issues need to be resolved at some point. In addition, some kind of explanation would be due for the last x years of miserable intimacy life. 

But at the end of the day one can't argue with success so let's keep our fingers crossed and wait for positive long term updates!


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blonde said:


> I must be the only one on here who reads OP's posts


I read it.  (Not sure, but I think the fonts were different. )

It confuses me, about BB's situation. But, I haven't been following it that closely.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blonde said:


> From my observation of M forums, the majority of men only take an interest in M improvement if the sex is off. The ones who are having regular sex don't post here seeking help.


I'm trying to not read more into that than you meant. I don't know exactly what you meant. So, if this doesn't seem a fitting response, please ignore:

I find assertions about the "majority of men" or the "majority of women" unscientific, useless or worse around here.

It's hard for me to not to feel stress, when I detect my the majority of my gender has just been painted badly. I imagine it is that way for lots of folks.

So, I feel the need to say the following. To be clear, I doubt you meant to imply all of the things I am reacting to. Maybe you didn't mean to imply any of them. It may just be I have a chip on my shoulder.

The chance of finding my wife here for any reason at all is minuscule.

The chance of finding me here, posting on threads that have nothing to do with sex is pretty high.

The chance of finding me and other men in CWI, probably does not correlate with sex being off. 

The reason I found TAM, when I did, was because my wife told me she hated me and thought about ways to kill me as I lay sleeping next to her. She professed such a hatred I had no idea she could ever hold. My first post was on a thread about a man's lack of sex in his marriage, because it hit a nerve. A very painful one.

I have stayed to learn more about CWI, mental illness, communication, accepting reality, things I don't know I don't know, personal growth.

I have stayed because it seems the only sensible thing for me to do is to divorce my wife, and I am still summoning the courage to do that. It helps to see people make that leap, and land well. It helps to know what the process is, and that there are ups after the downs.

I have stayed to help people. Most often, it seems what I tell people are things that I need to be telling myself. Sometimes, I just want to help because some people are reaching out and I want to live in a world where someone reaches back out to them.

I have stayed because some people here inspire me with the courage to change, and their ability to change.

I have no reason to believe men who post about their sex-starved marriage would neglect solving other problems in their marriage. IF they find this place looking for solutions to their sex-in-marriage problems, it seems just as likely to me that search is born out of pain, not out of being horny and THAT is the one sort of problem they might be motivated to solve.

There have been other issues in my marriage and in my family's life and that of my wife's family, and I am never passive about finding solutions. Usually, I'm the one putting the most energy into finding answers, sometimes to others' annoyance.

What brings people here isn't that they are men or women with one particular problem or another that correlates with sex. What brings people here is some people want to find a solution for something that is broken. 

What keeps people away from here, is either laziness or a disinterest or fear of finding some truth about their life or situation or themselves. I don't think that correlates with gender at all.​


----------



## Blonde

jld said:


> *Did BB say he uses porn? *
> 
> I guess I didn't catch that from his posts.


Yes


BostonBruins32 said:


> [ see 429 and context]


----------



## Blonde

PieceOfSky said:


> The chance of finding me and other men in CWI, probably does not correlate with sex being off.


If they are a BH with WW in an affair chances are the sex is off. 

I learned on TAM that for a woman the sex being off (and I mean really OFF for multiple months into years) is a huge red flag that she is in an affair and being faithful to OM. It's a very odd sort of "monogamy" IMO (cheating men OTH are polygamous)


----------



## Blonde

PieceOfSky said:


> I don't know what you mean by mutual O's.


I mean his wife has orgasms when they have sex. While I have seen people post stories which sound like terribly shallow connection including O's, that was not my impression of BB's experiences with his wife. (I won't bother to find quotes but they are in here somewhere)

To me, if she is slow to warm up but does heat up and reaches that fever pitch, that is NORMAL. That is not "pity sex". Pity sex is offering up a BJ or a quickie. No reciprocity.


----------



## Blonde

treyvion said:


> Most people would leave the forum after several months of good sex and affection return.


Touche!

I see a link between BB's sex life and his posting frequency

IMO if he wasn't so stubborn as to wait 40 days to initiate, he would be long gone

He's not around now, so he must be initiating


----------



## PieceOfSky

Is the slow warm up what you would describe as the "responsive desire", or is that something different.

I hadn't noticed any use that term until a few days ago, and feel I may be missing something important.


----------



## PieceOfSky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



Blonde said:


> If they are a BH with WW in an affair chances are the sex is off.
> 
> I learned on TAM that for a woman the sex being off (and I mean really OFF for multiple months into years) is a huge red flag that she is in an affair and being faithful to OM. It's a very odd sort of "monogamy" IMO (cheating men OTH are polygamous)


You have also said before WW in an EA will sometimes have an apparent increase in desire or willingness to have sex.

That the latter was true during my wife's EA, and that that was followed by certifiable sexlessness, leaves me worried about that odd sort of monogamy. Sigh.


----------



## Blonde

PieceOfSky said:


> Is the slow warm up what you would describe as the "responsive desire"


Yes. I might not be interested at all, sex the furthest thing from my mind, but H knows me like a book and knows all the right buttons to push... A walk with intimate conversation, some ten second kisses esp effective when on his way OUT somewhere (because it makes me feel more like a lover and less like a sex object)

If he never initiated we would have a lot less sex


----------



## john117

PieceOfSky said:


> Is the slow warm up what you would describe as the "responsive desire", or is that something different.
> 
> I hadn't noticed any use that term until a few days ago, and feel I may be missing something important.



I would not hold my breath. RD is a good approach if the LD is not purposefully withholding. If we're talking 1x/month type stats or worse I kinda doubt it... You know, the kind of LD that's too tired for sex but not too tired for HBO and so on.


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> If they are a BH with WW in an affair chances are the sex is off.
> 
> I learned on TAM that for a woman the sex being off (and I mean really OFF for multiple months into years) is a huge red flag that she is in an affair and being faithful to OM. It's a very odd sort of "monogamy" IMO (cheating men OTH are polygamous)



I wish


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blonde said:


> Yes. I might not be interested at all, sex the furthest thing from my mind, but H knows me like a book and knows all the right buttons to push... A walk with intimate conversation, some ten second kisses esp effective when on his way OUT somewhere (because it makes me feel more like a lover and less like a sex object)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If he never initiated we would have a lot less sex







Thanks. We have gotten beyond the point a ten second kiss is welcome from me.



I will keep it in mind though.


----------



## FizzBomb

PieceOfSky said:


> The reason I found TAM, when I did, *was because my wife told me she hated me and thought about ways to kill me as I lay sleeping next to her. She professed such a hatred I had no idea she could ever hold. * My first post was on a thread about a man's lack of sex in his marriage, because it hit a nerve. A very painful one.
> [/INDENT]


PieceofSky, thats so sad to read. I'm sorry you had to hear that from your wife. And sorry for your pain.


----------



## PieceOfSky

That is kind of you to say. Thanks.


----------



## BostonBruins32

lots of activity in this thread. 

anyhow not much to write about here. My feelings havent changed too much, thats on me. My wife has continued to remain closer and more affectionate. B3 doing great.


----------



## kilgore

oh, that is terrible


----------



## Catherine602

PieceOfSky said:


> I'm trying to not read more into that than you meant. I don't know exactly what you meant. So, if this doesn't seem a fitting response, please ignore:
> 
> I find assertions about the "majority of men" or the "majority of women" unscientific, useless or worse around here.
> 
> It's hard for me to not to feel stress, when I detect my the majority of my gender has just been painted badly. I imagine it is that way for lots of folks.
> 
> So, I feel the need to say the following. To be clear, I doubt you meant to imply all of the things I am reacting to. Maybe you didn't mean to imply any of them. It may just be I have a chip on my shoulder.
> 
> The chance of finding my wife here for any reason at all is minuscule.
> 
> The chance of finding me here, posting on threads that have nothing to do with sex is pretty high.
> 
> The chance of finding me and other men in CWI, probably does not correlate with sex being off.
> 
> The reason I found TAM, when I did, was because my wife told me she hated me and thought about ways to kill me as I lay sleeping next to her. She professed such a hatred I had no idea she could ever hold. My first post was on a thread about a man's lack of sex in his marriage, because it hit a nerve. A very painful one.
> 
> I have stayed to learn more about CWI, mental illness, communication, accepting reality, things I don't know I don't know, personal growth.
> 
> I have stayed because it seems the only sensible thing for me to do is to divorce my wife, and I am still summoning the courage to do that. It helps to see people make that leap, and land well. It helps to know what the process is, and that there are ups after the downs.
> 
> I have stayed to help people. Most often, it seems what I tell people are things that I need to be telling myself. Sometimes, I just want to help because some people are reaching out and I want to live in a world where someone reaches back out to them.
> 
> I have stayed because some people here inspire me with the courage to change, and their ability to change.
> 
> I have no reason to believe men who post about their sex-starved marriage would neglect solving other problems in their marriage. IF they find this place looking for solutions to their sex-in-marriage problems, it seems just as likely to me that search is born out of pain, not out of being horny and THAT is the one sort of problem they might be motivated to solve.
> 
> There have been other issues in my marriage and in my family's life and that of my wife's family, and I am never passive about finding solutions. Usually, I'm the one putting the most energy into finding answers, sometimes to others' annoyance.
> 
> What brings people here isn't that they are men or women with one particular problem or another that correlates with sex. What brings people here is some people want to find a solution for something that is broken.
> 
> What keeps people away from here, is either laziness or a disinterest or fear of finding some truth about their life or situation or themselves. I don't think that correlates with gender at all.​


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## MEM2020

Piece,
My observation is that when you mix two ingredients: 
1. Blonde
2. Male sexuality 

The result is a stew of dismissiveness and contempt with a dash of hostility. 





PieceOfSky said:


> I'm trying to not read more into that than you meant. I don't know exactly what you meant. So, if this doesn't seem a fitting response, please ignore:
> 
> I find assertions about the "majority of men" or the "majority of women" unscientific, useless or worse around here.
> 
> It's hard for me to not to feel stress, when I detect my the majority of my gender has just been painted badly. I imagine it is that way for lots of folks.
> 
> So, I feel the need to say the following. To be clear, I doubt you meant to imply all of the things I am reacting to. Maybe you didn't mean to imply any of them. It may just be I have a chip on my shoulder.
> 
> The chance of finding my wife here for any reason at all is minuscule.
> 
> The chance of finding me here, posting on threads that have nothing to do with sex is pretty high.
> 
> The chance of finding me and other men in CWI, probably does not correlate with sex being off.
> 
> The reason I found TAM, when I did, was because my wife told me she hated me and thought about ways to kill me as I lay sleeping next to her. She professed such a hatred I had no idea she could ever hold. My first post was on a thread about a man's lack of sex in his marriage, because it hit a nerve. A very painful one.
> 
> I have stayed to learn more about CWI, mental illness, communication, accepting reality, things I don't know I don't know, personal growth.
> 
> I have stayed because it seems the only sensible thing for me to do is to divorce my wife, and I am still summoning the courage to do that. It helps to see people make that leap, and land well. It helps to know what the process is, and that there are ups after the downs.
> 
> I have stayed to help people. Most often, it seems what I tell people are things that I need to be telling myself. Sometimes, I just want to help because some people are reaching out and I want to live in a world where someone reaches back out to them.
> 
> I have stayed because some people here inspire me with the courage to change, and their ability to change.
> 
> I have no reason to believe men who post about their sex-starved marriage would neglect solving other problems in their marriage. IF they find this place looking for solutions to their sex-in-marriage problems, it seems just as likely to me that search is born out of pain, not out of being horny and THAT is the one sort of problem they might be motivated to solve.
> 
> There have been other issues in my marriage and in my family's life and that of my wife's family, and I am never passive about finding solutions. Usually, I'm the one putting the most energy into finding answers, sometimes to others' annoyance.
> 
> What brings people here isn't that they are men or women with one particular problem or another that correlates with sex. What brings people here is some people want to find a solution for something that is broken.
> 
> What keeps people away from here, is either laziness or a disinterest or fear of finding some truth about their life or situation or themselves. I don't think that correlates with gender at all.​


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> Piece,
> My observation is that when you mix two ingredients:
> 1. Blonde
> 2. Male sexuality
> 
> The result is a stew of dismissiveness and contempt with a dash of hostility.


Geez you hate me! I sense unresolved baggage somewhere in your background...

TBH, I can't respect someone who views me with such ongoing contempt, climbs into my head and twists my words around into something grotesquely evil which bears NO resemblance to what I actually said...

I should report you for flaming but meh...

I am THE ONLY ONE who read OP's posts and registered that he has had NO REJECTIONS for 6 months now.

Yet his wife is still the villain to be roasted....

Methinks you project about dismissiveness, contempt, and gender hatred MEM


----------



## john117

Of course she is. Charcoal or natural gas?

Before or while hanging the "Mission Accomplished" sign in the yard I would try to understand how this change of heart came to be...


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,

I sent you a PM last week. Do you really think the tone of that PM aligns in any way with your comments below?

That's not the type of message you send someone you dislike, much less hate. 





Blonde said:


> Geez you hate me! I sense unresolved baggage somewhere in your background...
> 
> TBH, I can't respect someone who views me with such ongoing contempt, climbs into my head and twists my words around into something grotesquely evil which bears NO resemblance to what I actually said...
> 
> I should report you for flaming but meh...
> 
> I am THE ONLY ONE who read OP's posts and registered that he has had NO REJECTIONS for 6 months now.
> 
> Yet his wife is still the villain to be roasted....
> 
> Methinks you project about dismissiveness, contempt, and gender hatred MEM


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> Geez you hate me! I sense unresolved baggage somewhere in your background...
> 
> TBH, I can't respect someone who views me with such ongoing contempt, climbs into my head and twists my words around into something grotesquely evil which bears NO resemblance to what I actually said...
> 
> I should report you for flaming but meh...
> 
> I am THE ONLY ONE who read OP's posts and registered that he has had NO REJECTIONS for 6 months now.
> 
> Yet his wife is still the villain to be roasted....
> 
> Methinks you project about dismissiveness, contempt, and gender hatred MEM


Blonde.. I'm not roasting her. Go easy.

No rejections. She's been willing to let me have sex with her when I initiate. I've initiated anywhere from weekly, to monthly. All I said was that it's taking me some time work through my own concerns about the direction of this marriage. If you read through the posts, you could probably figure out why. Concerns about her having a EA, concerns about her willingness to leave again, concerns about her not noticing tangible changes when I asked her 2+ months ago, still open wound feelings about the rejections from years back. 

These are issues _I_ have to work through. I've stated that. She's been more affectionate. Been more loving. no doubt. Thats great, but rome wasnt built overnight. I'm still internally disshuffled about the direction of the marriage. And yes to your (sometimes harsh) earlier posts, there are moments when I contemplate why I cant just be happy about where things are. MEM has concerns about her motives. You sound like you believe her motives are from being in love with me. I'm somewhere in the middle. I think she loves me for me, but for some reason I dont feel it OR I won't allow myself to feel it. Thats the real issue here.

At this point Blonde, I'm the issue. These repairs take time. We're trying here.


----------



## john117

Well.... What would it take for you to be convinced of her motives one way or another... ???


----------



## LongWalk

Does she orgasm? Enjoy sex? Does she let go?

It is natural for you to feel confused. You were rejected for so long and now you are not. Why? Has she rediscovered desire for you or is she putting out to prevent divorce?

I don't think there is necessarily an absolute truth here. If you are having okay sex, it may improve. According to Machiavelli, semen includes a ****tail that can improve her feeling of wellbeing.


----------



## GiveHeadaShake

Hi Boston,

I’ve read through your whole thread over the last month or so. Many times when you’re describing your wife, you could be describing mine. My wife is LD. While your initial post put a call out to LD women, very few LD women have responded. In fact, judging by many people’s responses, they cannot even conceptualize the mindset of an LD spouse.

Some posters have postulated that your wife hates sex or dislikes sex with you. I don’t remember you saying that Boston – I think you said she orgasms most every time. My wife also enjoys sex, orgasms often, yet never masturbates. She could go months with a smile on her face without sex.

I believe waiting for your LD partner to initiate is a very poor measuring stick of their love for you or of their needs being met. Let’s not forget that LD partners, by definition, will always get more sex than they want. Perhaps try to put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine…, and I’m aiming this question at the HD partners who LOVE sex,… Imagine your partner wanted sex 15x per day everyday – how often would you initiate after, say, day 3? How about day 200? Come on, just ONE extra time on day 200???

I know, it’s an outrageous example, but I’m trying to illustrate that it is a different mindset altogether, and I get where you’re coming from Boston, though I don’t know that some of the others giving you advice can totally relate to the LD thing.

Anyways, it sounds like you’re making headway on the sex thing anyways. One piece of advice I’d offer regarding rejection would be to give direct hints during the day that you’re looking forward to seducing her that night. Judge her responses during the day to determine if it’s ON for that night. If she was not in the mood that night, you’d know before you got into the bedroom – so there isn’t anticipation buildup and rejection all at the last minute everytime. Hey, try this…Tell her you’d like to try something on her that you’ve read about called “100 kisses”. Don’t tell her anything more about it – just get her buy in then make it up as you go along that night (blindfold and clothing optional – grin). They say anticipation is the greatest aphrodisiac – try creating more anticipation.

Regarding the respect, the eye rolling and snarky comments are WAY out of line. Ideally you should be at a point where you can say, “Don’t speak to me in that way.”, or “Why would you roll your eyes?” at the first offense and your spouse should change their behavior. You’re way past that and it sounds like it’s a habit for her to disrespect you through actions and words. Breaking habits is difficult. 

Here’s a suggestion if she’s willing and she recognizes and wants to stop that behavior… You each wear an elastic on your wrist. When she insults you or does one of the disrespectful things she is trying to stop doing – you hold up your arm and snap the elastic. When you do that, she has to do the same. The thinking is that she has hurt you without realizing it. You’re showing her that she has hurt you (snap), and she is feeling your pain (snap).

Whoa, this has ended up way longer that I intended, but I wanted to highlight a few other things that caught my eye. 

1) Women between 30-35 who want kids will push harder and harder for kids during this time it’s a biological push. 

2) Sex slows down when the kids are small. Our youngest is now 10 and we’re in our mid 40s and our sex life is the best it’s been since we had our first.

3) You keep asking does she love me or the lifestyle I offer? Can’t she love both you and the lifestyle that comes with you simultaneously and isn’t that OK?

Take Care


----------



## BostonBruins32

I like the feedback GIVE. 

Interesting stuff. The LD thing is less of the core issue than I originally thought. Regardless, I still don't think she's LD. 

I think she's LD with me. I do think she would end up LD with anyone she became close to, but not because she doesnt like sex. Rather because there is something about the respect or empathy she shares for those she pulls closest to. I do not think she respects me (maybe she does more now?), therefore I don't think shes attracted to me. I spent 6 months pondering on how this is my fault. I no longer think it is. As I said, if she were to leave me and find someone new, physically built like the Rock, funny like jim Carrey, sensitive like the guy in The Notebook, and wealthy like Bill Gates, I dont think that would be enough. She'd lose interest in him sexually too.

I appreciate your feedback though. You have a very warm perception and reaction to this type of situation. 

For some reason, as I said, I'm still having a hard time just accepting the improvement and feeling closer to her. I have a thick wall up right now. And I have no clue how to tear it down. I want to love her like i used to, but I just feel different. hard to explain..


----------



## john117

Easy. You don't trust her the way you used to. The rest is self explanatory.

Either that or you're taking my posts a bit too seriously :rofl:. So I ask again, what would it take to convince you, and why not go for some IC to sort things out.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Easy. You don't trust her the way you used to. The rest is self explanatory.
> 
> Either that or you're taking my posts a bit too seriously :rofl:. So I ask again, what would it take to convince you, and *why not go for some IC to sort things out.*


Well, IC, what a great idea! What do you think, BB?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> I do think she would end up LD with anyone she became close to, but not because she doesnt like sex. Rather because there is something about the respect or empathy she shares for those she pulls closest to.


Which is completely consistent with her CSA. Sex is fine when casual. But when a relationship gets serious, especially marriage, sex takes on a very different look.

Have you read up about that yet? Have you seen a counselor to discuss options for you to deal with it?


----------



## BostonBruins32

I have done some reading, mostly online. Seems consistent to what you're saying.

I haven't checked into IC for direction on how to handle her behavior or my perception of her behavior. For some reason I don't feel like doing that right now. I probably need to. 

To be very honest, I also feel pretty frustrated about how dismissive she is regarding counseling. "i'll go if you want to go" was her last comment on it months ago when I called her out for quitting it. To me its like dealing with an alcoholic. They don't change because you tell them to go to counseling. They change with rock bottoms. Now comes the part where its my fault:

I havent offered a rock bottom. She delivered something of a rock bottom when she took space from me months ago. Not sure if she was having an affair or considering one OR if she really did have a bubbled up issue with me and it popped? Either way, same result. Correction and improvement in my ways/self.

Blonde may love to hear me admit this, but I'm just having a real hard time trusting and loving my wife right now. I'm not sure if you would consider it a wall or what, but more often than not, I don't want to be around her. I dont rush home. I don't care if she goes out with her mom all of Sunday shopping out the outlets. It sounds really F-d up, but as things are getting better regarding her behavior etc, I'm remaining angry inside. I sometimes have a hard time looking her in the eye. 

Like that Tim mcrgraw cowboy in me song says, sometimes I wake up fighting mad. despite things seemingly getting better, I find myself really not wanting to be home with her. 

Very messed up.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> I have done some reading, mostly online. Seems consistent to what you're saying.
> 
> I haven't checked into IC for direction on how to handle her behavior or my perception of her behavior. For some reason I don't feel like doing that right now. I probably need to.


So she should do all the work while you sit back and wait? How is that working for you.

I am at the point of telling you to just leave. You are not interested in actually doing anything. You read the advice, mull it over, then come up with an excuse as to why you just can't do it. But you are great at then laying all the blame on her.

You can't make her change and you seem to think you have nothing to change, so either accept this (and quit whining) or get out. Because complaining here while hoping that she magically transforms is just wasting everyone's time.


----------



## jld

That is why the IC would be good for you, BB. My sister used to say If you don't talk it out, you'll act it out. It is going to come out somehow.


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am at the point of telling you to just leave. You are not interested in actually doing anything. You read the advice, mull it over, then come up with an excuse as to why you just can't do it. But you are great at then laying all the blame on her..



That seems to be a recurrent theme in TAM...

Decisions based in incomplete information tend to differ from decisions made with complete information. Decision Analysis 201 material (for which I was the TA )

You can't abstract a complex problem to the standard five paragraph essay no matter how hard you try. And most solutions proposed are filtered out because of one detail or another that does not fit the model. 

But what do I know about decision analysis


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> That seems to be a recurrent theme in TAM...


Since he is making himself and his wife miserable, I don't see the benefit in sticking around. If he can accept things as they are, then he does not need to leave.



> Decisions based in incomplete information tend to differ from decisions made with complete information. Decision Analysis 201 material (for which I was the TA )
> 
> You can't abstract a complex problem to the standard five paragraph essay no matter how hard you try. And most solutions proposed are filtered out because of one detail or another that does not fit the model.
> 
> But what do I know about decision analysis


If you taught it, then you should no its limitations. Its called paralysis by analysis. You never have complete information, because there is no such thing. You continue to churn while never making a decision because you are too busy finding more information.

But I do suppose it is easier to proclaim his problem unique and ignore suggestions rather than do any work. Then he can lay the blame on his wife while staying unchanged. In that way, you can provide some very valuable insights to BB32.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> I
> 
> Blonde may love to hear me admit this, but I'm just having a real hard time trusting and loving my wife right now. I'm not sure if you would consider it a wall or what, but more often than not, I don't want to be around her. I dont rush home. I don't care if she goes out with her mom all of Sunday shopping out the outlets. It sounds really F-d up, but as things are getting better regarding her behavior etc, I'm remaining angry inside. I sometimes have a hard time looking her in the eye.
> 
> Like that Tim mcrgraw cowboy in me song says, sometimes I wake up fighting mad. despite things seemingly getting better, I find myself really not wanting to be home with her.
> 
> Very messed up.


It's called resentment. Get yourself to IC and work on dispelling it, or it will rot your marriage from the inside out. 

It's not anyone's fault that this is where you are emotionally--but that doesn't change the fact of it. If you don't deal with it, your progress with your wife will remain stalled. 

I say this as someone who took almost TEN YEARS to face my own resentments and do something about them. Best thing I ever did--for my marriage, yes, but even more so for myself. Some people are naturally susceptible to building resentment, or are in dynamics that make them susceptible. Learning to recognize the signs and act to dispel it right away has been a life changing skill for me. I feel . . . free. Do it for yourself, if not for your marriage. 

A while back I mentioned that you might want to do some reading on "rumination OCD," or "relationship OCD." Did you happen to get the time to do that? Just wondering if it strikes any chords with you, particularly in relationship to the time away that your wife took and your discomfort with what that meant. 

Still pulling for you.


----------



## MEM2020

TAG,
I believe only one of them is truly unhappy right now. The other is perhaps - satisfied - if not happy for the moment. 

But I agree that won't last. A happy/unhappy pairing is inherently unstable. It either becomes satisfied/happy or happy/happy.

Boston doesn't feel safe loving someone who is concealing her true self from him. 

To those who say: You never really know someone
I respond: Rubbish

If you deeply want to know someone, and they allow it, than it happens.....




Tall Average Guy said:


> Since he is making himself and his wife miserable, I don't see the benefit in sticking around. If he can accept things as they are, then he does not need to leave.
> 
> 
> 
> If you taught it, then you should no its limitations. Its called paralysis by analysis. You never have complete information, because there is no such thing. You continue to churn while never making a decision because you are too busy finding more information.
> 
> But I do suppose it is easier to proclaim his problem unique and ignore suggestions rather than do any work. Then he can lay the blame on his wife while staying unchanged. In that way, you can provide some very valuable insights to BB32.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

MEM11363 said:


> TAG,
> I believe only one of them is truly unhappy right now. The other is perhaps - satisfied - if not happy for the moment.
> 
> But I agree that won't last. A happy/unhappy pairing is inherently unstable. It either becomes satisfied/happy or happy/happy.
> 
> Boston doesn't feel safe loving someone who is concealing her true self from him.
> 
> To those who say: You never really know someone
> I respond: Rubbish
> 
> If you deeply want to know someone, and they allow it, than it happens.....


I don't disagree with any of this. 

But it does not excuse his refusal to do the work. He knows his wife has CSA issues, yet all he does is read a bit on the Internet. He ignores suggestions and won't go to an IC to work through what he wants to do. He refuses to do anything that makes her uncomfortable or that changes himself, then wonders why things are exactly the same.

He does not want to work. There may be any number of reasons, but there is no excuse. If he does not want to work, he needs to accept that things won't change and then either learn to live with it or leave.


----------



## MEM2020

This isn't a knowledge or skill issue. 

It's about strength of will. 

At this point the weak man walks away. M

And the strong man says: I'm not willing to flail round in the dark any longer. I need to know you, the real you in order to be agreeable to continued physical intimacy of any sort - hugs, kisses, sex, etc. I'm no longer willing to pretend everything's fine when there is so little communication about major stuff in this marriage. 

When you are ready to be open with me, we can resume being husband and wife in the real sense. 

In the meantime, if there's anything I can do to help you that I'm able to, I will. 

And then he does a soft 180 where to primary focus is avoidance of day to day emotional conversation and any physical contact. 

He can say 'I love you' if he feels it - which I believe he does. But from a distance and not just because he thinks he should. 





Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't disagree with any of this.
> 
> But it does not excuse his refusal to do the work. He knows his wife has CSA issues, yet all he does is read a bit on the Internet. He ignores suggestions and won't go to an IC to work through what he wants to do. He refuses to do anything that makes her uncomfortable or that changes himself, then wonders why things are exactly the same.
> 
> He does not want to work. There may be any number of reasons, but there is no excuse. If he does not want to work, he needs to accept that things won't change and then either learn to live with it or leave.


----------



## PieceOfSky

All I can say BB is you are wise to not ignore your dissatisfaction.



Also understand that the more you do not feel like engaging in life with her, the less you will engage, and she will not understand the reasons why. She will only see the "you" she thought she married has somehow disappeared, and then she will find more and more wrong with the "you" she thinks she sees but no longer really knows.



If you have never tried IC, you might find you like it.



She is not likely to fix what is hurting her inside and holding her love back. You may not have the wisdom and experience to stay out of the dynamics/pitfalls of living with someone whose first choice isn't openness and vulnerability.



Just my opinion from incomplete information, but it might be important to find a professional to help you see and counteract the bad dynamics that can happen.



ETA: I should have said "not likely to choose anytime to fix on her own".


----------



## MEM2020

Over the course of 25 years M2 has said maybe a half dozen times: I've never told anyone else this - followed by something remarkably intimate. Nothing more special than be invited into a special club that has only one member. 






PieceOfSky said:


> All I can say BB is you are wise to not ignore your dissatisfaction.
> 
> 
> 
> Also understand that the more you do not feel like engaging in life with her, the less you will engage, and she will not understand the reasons why. She will only see the "you" she thought she married has somehow disappeared, and then she will find more and more wrong with the "you" she thinks she sees but no longer really knows.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have never tried IC, you might find you like it.
> 
> 
> 
> She is not likely to fix what is hurting her inside and holding her love back. You may not have the wisdom and experience to stay out of the dynamics/pitfalls of living with someone whose first choice isn't openness and vulnerability.
> 
> 
> 
> Just my opinion from incomplete information, but it might be important to find a professional to help you see and counteract the bad dynamics that can happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ETA: I should have said "not likely to choose anytime to fix on her own".


----------



## BostonBruins32

Greetings from Europe. 

On business travel, extended trip with some galavanting with b2. B 3 home with grandma. 

So right before trip, I contacted counselor, same one, and scheduled ic session. Unfortunate it's a 3 week wait. Didn't tell wife yet. Almost don't want to but transparency is best. Will tell after trip. 

This little impromptu euro trip is nice. Reminds us of pre b3 days where we were a tad more adventurous. Renting a car in foreign country. Seeing new things etc. Wife very loving. A rejection for sex one am, but she initiated tgat night. No biggy. Was just tired in morning I think. Anyways I have mixed feelings about these sorts of trips. On the one hand, it's fun. We have fun. She has been glowing with happiness. On the other hand, everyone is glowing when on vacation. And my internal pessimism despite all this fun,tells me that I have a lot to work on. 

Wonder what she'll think of me going to ic? Will she want to join? Will she think I'm weak? Will she want to talk about why(never wants serious emotional talks) ? Will she see this as the beginning of the end?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Bb32: I read through your thread and caught up on Monday. So many times you have asked questions of TAM that need to be asked directly to your wife. Those questions are no exception. And when she plays the "I don't know" card, don't let her off the hook. Ask her how something makes her feel, then ask follow up questions to lead the conversation to where you want it to go. 

I am rooting for you guys. I hope you have a spectacular trip.


----------



## john117

What country?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Austria. beautiful here.


----------



## john117

Conveniently romantic


----------



## BostonBruins32

Really interested in seeing how the affection level changes now that we're home. It's been at an ok level but it was over the top during the trip. 

Kind of happy to be home and back to normal life. I don't feel this close enough bond with her to be alone with her 24/7 for more than a few days. It was different years ago when we traveled but it now feels like it's a lifestyle thing that excites her(posted on facebook like crazy to broadcast our trip) rather than just being together and exploring that excites her.

I still can't get past that. Me or the package.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I hate to think she is that materialistic, BB. I'm sure you do, too.


----------



## john117

Materialistic? More like status conscious I think. Materialistic would be to lug a suitcase's worth of expensive stuff from every trip.

Btw, BB, posting selfies from abroad is not a bad idea but I'd be concerned about the world knowing that the BB's are on an overseas trip...


----------



## jld

Yeah, you're right. I guess I was thinking overseas trips are expensive, but she was just tagging along with BB.

I don't think of women as selfish and using men. Most women I know here in my middle class Midwestern life are not like that. Everybody seems to be working pretty hard to raise a family and make enough money to pay for life and be able to retire someday.

Funny how different everyone's reality can be.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
You have excellent values. You aren't focused on social status. It's one of the reasons Dug loves you so much.

When - you love your H and children as much as you do - and they love you back - it's natural not to care all that much about what the neighbors think......

If more folks were like you/Dug there would be fewer divorces and far fewer bankruptcies......




jld said:


> Yeah, you're right. I guess I was thinking overseas trips are expensive, but she was just tagging along with BB.
> 
> I don't think of women as selfish and using men. Most women I know here in my middle class Midwestern life are not like that. Everybody seems to be working pretty hard to raise a family and make enough money to pay for life and be able to retire someday.
> 
> Funny how different everyone's reality can be.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> You have excellent values. You aren't focused on social status. It's one of the reasons Dug loves you so much.
> 
> When - you love your H and children as much as you do - and they love you back - it's natural not to care all that much about what the neighbors think......
> 
> If more folks were like you/Dug there would be fewer divorces and far fewer bankruptcies......


Why, MEM, thank you! That was very kind.


----------



## john117

Not all materialism is bad though. We do have a sizable art collection at home and it is about the only thing that wifey and I agree on...


----------



## Red Sonja

MEM11363 said:


> And the strong man says: I'm not willing to flail round in the dark any longer. I need to know you, the real you in order to be agreeable to continued physical intimacy of any sort - hugs, kisses, sex, etc. I'm no longer willing to pretend everything's fine when there is so little communication about major stuff in this marriage.
> 
> When you are ready to be open with me, we can resume being husband and wife in the real sense.
> 
> In the meantime, if there's anything I can do to help you that I'm able to, I will.
> 
> And then he does a soft 180 where to primary focus is avoidance of day to day emotional conversation and any physical contact.


This is good advice however it can lead to a stand-off or limbo state in the case where the spouse is what John labels a NotNormalPerson. My husband is like your wife BB in that he has zero capacity for empathy … which BTW is a hallmark characteristic of all Cluster-B personality disorders.

I implemented this advice to the letter after many years of trying everything else I could think of (IC, MC, ruling out medical problems, books, etc.). All it accomplished was to drive my husband into a very dark mood for a month (or so) and he withdrew even more than usual. And then, he returned to his usual state of pretending nothing is amiss and doing his own thing.

I moved out recently, I gave up on my 28 year marriage (sexless for 25) and I am much relieved because the agony is finally over. IDK, perhaps this advice just does not work where the genders are reversed.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Interesting Red. Even more interesting when roles are reversed. Its still baffling to me that many women have LD husbands. This feels as strange as a woman being a beer drinking sports fan while her husband likes martinis and HGTV. 

Anyways, the calculated 180 has helped. I think some folks take the 180 exactly by the book. Doesnt work that way. You have to tailor it to what makes sense for you. Done successfully, with a partner who truly does want to love you, it works. We'll see for me.

Funny, MEM should love this, on the way home in airport B2 says so any thoughts on a B4 this fall? I said "i dont really know that I want to." (i sort of wanted to avoid this deep conversation in an airport lounge, would love to hash it out, just not with a 7 hour flight ahead of us). She smiles and says "oh come on, you really dont know?" . I said to be honest I'm really not ready for another B. She said "so just one and done?" , I said "as of how things are right now, thats how I feel". That was that.

She remained affectionate and upbeat for the rest of the trip home and even last night/this morning. 

I dont know why, but this felt good. I sort of rejected her and she didnt give me a ***** fit or ignore me for the way home.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Red Sonja said:


> I moved out recently, I gave up on my 28 year marriage (sexless for 25) and I am much relieved because the agony is finally over. IDK, perhaps this advice just does not work where the genders are reversed.


It depends on what your goal is. If it is to preserve the marriage at all costs, then it did not work. But if it was to resolve your unhappiness with him and your marriage, it did what was needed.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> It depends on what your goal is. If it is to preserve the marriage at all costs, then it did not work. But if it was to resolve your unhappiness with him and your marriage, it did what was needed.


Bingo. In the MMSL book, success is early defined as getting more of what you want and being happy (sexually, but it could be relayed to nonsexual happiness). The author then notes that your happiness may not be with your current signif other.

So the 180 will bring happiness. 99.9% of the time. It just may not bring happiness involving your current spouse.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

jld said:


> I don't think of women as selfish and using men. Most women I know here in my middle class Midwestern life are not like that. Everybody seems to be working pretty hard to raise a family and make enough money to pay for life and be able to retire someday.
> 
> Funny how different everyone's reality can be.


Sometimes, I think it is about checking off the boxes they (and I include both men and women in this) think they are supposed to check to be a success:

Graduate from college - check
Get a job - check
Get married - check
Buy a house - check
Have kids -check

Keeping those boxes checked becomes the end goal without really thinking about what else goes into a relationship. I don't know that the person is intentionally using the other person, but it is certainly a type of selfishness.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
This will come up again. And when it happens you will likely be in a place where you're comfortable being more direct. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> Interesting Red. Even more interesting when roles are reversed. Its still baffling to me that many women have LD husbands. This feels as strange as a woman being a beer drinking sports fan while her husband likes martinis and HGTV.
> 
> Anyways, the calculated 180 has helped. I think some folks take the 180 exactly by the book. Doesnt work that way. You have to tailor it to what makes sense for you. Done successfully, with a partner who truly does want to love you, it works. We'll see for me.
> 
> Funny, MEM should love this, on the way home in airport B2 says so any thoughts on a B4 this fall? I said "i dont really know that I want to." (i sort of wanted to avoid this deep conversation in an airport lounge, would love to hash it out, just not with a 7 hour flight ahead of us). She smiles and says "oh come on, you really dont know?" . I said to be honest I'm really not ready for another B. She said "so just one and done?" , I said "as of how things are right now, thats how I feel". That was that.
> 
> She remained affectionate and upbeat for the rest of the trip home and even last night/this morning.
> 
> I dont know why, but this felt good. I sort of rejected her and she didnt give me a ***** fit or ignore me for the way home.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> This will come up again. And when it happens you will likely be in a place where you're comfortable being more direct.


oh i certainly hope so. looking forward to it.

on a side note, what do you make of her taking that minor rejection so well? she literally seemed cool with my response. Like "oh ok, no biggy".

Do you think she thinks I'm full of S? or do you think she may actually be cool with only one child? or do you think (very unlikely) that she has a grasp on why I wouldnt want no kids, and sees it logically?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



BostonBruins32 said:


> oh i certainly hope so. looking forward to it.
> 
> on a side note, what do you make of her taking that minor rejection so well? she literally seemed cool with my response. Like "oh ok, no biggy".
> 
> Do you think she thinks I'm full of S? or do you think she may actually be cool with only one child? or do you think (very unlikely) that she has a grasp on why I wouldnt want no kids, and sees it logically?


BB32: I am rooting for you, so please don't take this the wrong way because I am saying this out of genuine concern and hope for you. I have read your entire thread and have seen your attempts to communicate with her. That said, nearly every post in which you ask a question of TAM could be answered with the following question:

"What did your wife say when you asked her these pointed questions?"

And your answer would be?

Bro. Communicate with her. Ask her open ended questions. Not like before when it was all about what was missing for you. When she dodges questions, don't get discouraged; that is how you know you are getting close to where you want to take her. If she blame shifts, quickly acknowledge it (whether true or not) and don't let her off the hook. 
You are having half conversations with your wife. You should be asking all of these questions of her. Sit her down and tell her you want to have some adult conversation, but not about you, about her. And ask away. Get her to open up with charm, humor, honey instead of vinegar. I think you could get a lot of your questions answered that way.

I wish you luck, brother.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Farside, you're 100% right. But remember, I'm not quitting at the first sign if resistance like France here. I've fought for her to speak 300 style. I haven't cracked the code and I'm super super discouraged. Tired. In the mean time I stand up for myself and carry on . I can leave. I can get counseling. The only thing I literally can't do is force her to open up. I simply can't. I'll die trying, and life isn't a suicide mission. Not for someobe who doesn't love me enough back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Then don't stop taking new approaches. Your resignation in this process has to be incredibly frustrating. I can't imagine arriving at a point of acceptance in not truly being able to uncover what it is that makes your wife tick when that is what you so desperately want. I don't think I could do it. I would have to continue to try and move forward together with her or without her. All I can offer you is to continue trying to find that small little ***** in her armor because she has it somewhere. You just have to keep looking. And remember as soon as she starts to avoid the question is when you're actually starting to get close. Maybe that will motivate you a little extra bit to be able to uncover it.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
The Boston of today is very different than the Boston of one year ago. That guy was weaker, clingier, needier, whinier. 

She loved and respected the Boston of a year ago a LOT less than the current version. The new version is outwardly stronger. 

She's making an effort to be a better wife to you:
- not to lash out when you aren't going along with the program
- minimizing overt sexual rejection 

But here's the thing my man. You're every bit as guilty of hiding your true self from her as she is of doing that to you. 

You have mostly used soft, dare I say ambiguous language with her regarding a bigger house and B4. 

Outwardly you're kind, loving and affectionate with her. And yet you are very unsure of whether you want to stay in the marriage because you don't trust her motives. She's a closed book to you just as you're a closed book to her. 

And when you silently test her, the results are a bit unsettling. You stopped initiating for 40 days because you wanted to see what she would do without any pressure to have sex. 

It is scary but necessary to do this:
-------
- I love you, though it's a hard thing loving someone who I don't really understand 
- So for now, I'm muddling along, maybe like you are 
- But - as for doubling down on our commitment to each other, via a bigger house, or another child, I'm not willing to do that. What could be more foolish than having a second child with someone I don't understand. 
--------

And then shut the fvck up and listen. If she blocks you - don't get angry or aggressive. 

Just smile and shrug and say what's true which is this:
I might love you enough to be able to handle the truth. But all this avoidance - well - it's tough to love someone who so determinedly hides their true self from you. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> oh i certainly hope so. looking forward to it.
> 
> on a side note, what do you make of her taking that minor rejection so well? she literally seemed cool with my response. Like "oh ok, no biggy".
> 
> Do you think she thinks I'm full of S? or do you think she may actually be cool with only one child? or do you think (very unlikely) that she has a grasp on why I wouldnt want no kids, and sees it logically?


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> The Boston of today is very different than the Boston of one year ago. That guy was weaker, clingier, needier, whinier.
> 
> She loved and respected the Boston of a year ago a LOT less than the current version. The new version is outwardly stronger.
> 
> She's making an effort to be a better wife to you:
> - not to lash out when you aren't going along with the program
> - minimizing overt sexual rejection
> 
> But here's the thing my man. You're every bit as guilty of hiding your true self from her as she is of doing that to you.
> 
> You have mostly used soft, dare I say ambiguous language with her regarding a bigger house and B4.
> 
> Outwardly you're kind, loving and affectionate with her. And yet you are very unsure of whether you want to stay in the marriage because you don't trust her motives. She's a closed book to you just as you're a closed book to her.
> 
> And when you silently test her, the results are a bit unsettling. You stopped initiating for 40 days because you wanted to see what she would do without any pressure to have sex.
> 
> It is scary but necessary to do this:
> -------
> - I love you, though it's a hard thing loving someone who I don't really understand
> - So for now, I'm muddling along, maybe like you are
> - But - as for doubling down on our commitment to each other, via a bigger house, or another child, I'm not willing to do that. What could be more foolish than having a second child with someone I don't understand.
> --------
> 
> And then shut the fvck up and listen. If she blocks you - don't get angry or aggressive.
> 
> Just smile and shrug and say what's true which is this:
> I might love you enough to be able to handle the truth. But all this avoidance - well - it's tough to love someone who so determinedly hides their true self from you.



Good thoughts. 40 day thing was my loss in interest. Not her issue or any game,

Remember. I've told her before point blank I do not understand how she feels. I specifically said her actions ( I specifies the actions)show me she is not truly in love with me. Yet she says I love you etc. On the actions she essentially said that's how I am. "Sorry". I told her it's unacceptable. She said nothing. The counselor eluded to thd issue being mine. That something is bothering me therefore manifesting itself in the way I perceive her love. Maybe. But facebook ing exes, have treeman come help for free and rejecting sexual activity is really not all in my head. Old news. 

I realize I'm circling an old story here. I keep going back to blondes comments. Maybe I don't love her. Maybe I needed her, but per the 180 I need her less. Thus surfacing that maybe I didn't love her like i thought I did. Again , if I knew she wanted other male attention , would rip apart my parenting and household activity, remind me of wealthier husbands, and would refuse sex this much. I'm not sure I would have bought a ring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Just remember that the incremental pain of a bigger house and a second child is not significant (in the grand scheme of things) than what you currently have. 

And, like a babushka doll set, once you solve one layer another pops up. So... 

You need to sort out your thinking first then worry about the rest.


----------



## jld

Do you think he should just go ahead with a second child, john, so that his daughter has a sibling not too much younger?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Jld, that is literally the only thing I feel bad about. Not bad enough to just have a b 4, but a little bAd.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Lol, BB. Are you sure you should not go ahead and have one? I think you love Mrs. BB and are going to stay with her, even if things are not perfect.

You have a sibling, don't you? You know how helpful and fun it is. A lifelong gift from your parents.


----------



## MEM2020

Bravo Boston,

The truth has a very special sound. It is both unmistakable and beautiful. Your post below - is just that. 

B2, like M2, is like most women. She believes your actions, when they conflict with your words. So you tell her x,y,z and yet you are kind, generous, affectionate and sexual. 

If you reversed the polarity and instead told her what she wants to hear, while depriving her of kindness, affection, generosity and sex (well maybe not sex), she would respond to your conduct, not your words. 

By passively withholding the house/baby you are testing her love for you. But I question the validity of the test. Because at some level B2 believes that if she is just a bit nicer, you'll do what she wants. 

She does not believe that you prize transparency above all else. I believe it. Other readers of this thread believe it. But as yet, B2 does not. 

And I'd bet a car that she won't give it, til you offer it up yourself with no strings attached. Just a man telling his wife the truth - via his actions - despite his fear that she won't be able to handle it....




BostonBruins32 said:


> Good thoughts. 40 day thing was my loss in interest. Not her issue or any game,
> 
> Remember. I've told her before point blank I do not understand how she feels. I specifically said her actions ( I specifies the actions)show me she is not truly in love with me. Yet she says I love you etc. On the actions she essentially said that's how I am. "Sorry". I told her it's unacceptable. She said nothing. The counselor eluded to thd issue being mine. That something is bothering me therefore manifesting itself in the way I perceive her love. Maybe. But facebook ing exes, have treeman come help for free and rejecting sexual activity is really not all in my head. Old news.
> 
> I realize I'm circling an old story here. I keep going back to blondes comments. Maybe I don't love her. Maybe I needed her, but per the 180 I need her less. Thus surfacing that maybe I didn't love her like i thought I did. Again , if I knew she wanted other male attention and would refuse sex this much. I'm not sure I would have bought a ring.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Do you think he should just go ahead with a second child, john, so that his daughter has a sibling not too much younger?



Yes. My girls are about that far apart - 3 years and a bit of change (but 2 years in school because of stoopid cut off dates) and they are best friends. 

Just today they spent half an hour on the phone while the older is in France. They complement each other in everything. It's amazing.


----------



## Lyris

I have two girls 2 years and 10 months apart. Their relationship is a constant joy, I am so so grateful for how much they love each other.

But it's not guaranteed. Plenty of siblings aren't close and don't get along at all. Having a child primarily for the first child is a terrible reason. 

A second child will put more stress on your marriage than one. It's possible that you could survive with one child, but two will push you over the edge. Better for your daughter to live in an intact home as an only child than have a sibling and divorced parents.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Lyris said:


> I have two girls 2 years and 10 months apart. Their relationship is a constant joy, I am so so grateful for how much they love each other.
> 
> But it's not guaranteed. Plenty of siblings aren't close and don't get along at all. Having a child primarily for the first child is a terrible reason.
> 
> A second child will put more stress on your marriage than one. It's possible that you could survive with one child, but two will push you over the edge. Better for your daughter to live in an intact home as an only child than have a sibling and divorced parents.


Your child situation is rare IMHO. I think the majority of the times siblings have a love/hate relationship with each other. They may love each other but can't stand each other at the same time. Kids do take time away from the marriage. But they can also help bring you and your spouse closer together too. But there is a minimum threshold that is needed wrt strength of the marriage. I'd never have a kid to try to save a marriage. That never works.


----------



## homedepot

BostonBruins32 said:


> no bud. you have to remember the sensitivity of 3-4 years of rejections. take it too much to heart? Yep, i probably did. But its amazing what that long of rejection does to your psyche.




:iagree: You my friend speak the truth. That can drive a man to do some pretty stupid things.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Well that ban was a nice relaxing time away...but I have to respond to BB.

It is your fault and it you want her "back" you have to push her.

You have to let all negatives roll of your back and keep pushing.
You need for her to see she is the issue and not you.

Then things will change.

The question for all of us is can you pull it off?


----------



## john117

Welcome back!

If they don't think they are the problem they won't magically see it. 

I don't think my extra pounds are a problem so when I look at the mirror all I see is...

View attachment 24866


----------



## jld

BB's post, from another thread -- _Sex with some regularity and a thank you or some form of appreciation. <-- not a thank you for the sex but just appreciation of my efforts for little things (going extra mile in career, nice random things like running to get ice cream later at night, acknowledgement that ive gotten in even better shape, appreciation for taking care of B3 while she gets to sleep in on weekends)

These fundemental two things would solve quite a bit of basic needs. its not all encompassing, but these two things would make my efforts feel very worth it. 

Otherwise I just feel like the bill paying housemate._

BB, did not want to threadjack over there, so copied it here. 

How about just straight out asking your wife for appreciation? No covert contract, no waiting and getting mad when she does not do what you want, but just a straight out, "I would like a thank you, and this is the kind of thank you I want," followed by an example.

And how about an "I don't want to feel like the bill-paying housemate. Here is how you can make me not feel like that . . ."

I feel like my husband should be able to read my mind, too, but he just can't seem to do it.  

Making things simple and clear makes it easier for our spouses to do what we want. Even if it would feel even better if they just knew, without being told.


----------



## john117

That may work but people are very good at rationalizing.... It may work once or twice but an LD spouse could easily turn the tables and make it appear the non LD spouse is base lining or predicating everything on sex... Hence the non LD is a sex crazed maniac, etc, etc.


----------



## jld

So, john, from what you have read, these LD/HD marriages usually end in divorce, if there is not extensive other-than-sex-validation going on?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> So, john, from what you have read, these LD/HD marriages usually end in divorce, if there is not extensive other-than-sex-validation going on?



Not sure they usually do, but it's like trying to run a marathon with a sack of cement tied in your back. 

Sex acts like a (stop laughing in the back) lubricant that makes us look over minor flaws and differences. Take the lubricant out of the picture and things get a lot more difficult to manage.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> BB's post, from another thread -- _Sex with some regularity and a thank you or some form of appreciation. <-- not a thank you for the sex but just appreciation of my efforts for little things (going extra mile in career, nice random things like running to get ice cream later at night, acknowledgement that ive gotten in even better shape, appreciation for taking care of B3 while she gets to sleep in on weekends)
> 
> These fundemental two things would solve quite a bit of basic needs. its not all encompassing, but these two things would make my efforts feel very worth it.
> 
> Otherwise I just feel like the bill paying housemate._
> 
> BB, did not want to threadjack over there, so copied it here.
> 
> How about just straight out asking your wife for appreciation? No covert contract, no waiting and getting mad when she does not do what you want, but just a straight out, "I would like a thank you, and this is the kind of thank you I want," followed by an example.
> 
> And how about an "I don't want to feel like the bill-paying housemate. Here is how you can make me not feel like that . . ."
> 
> I feel like my husband should be able to read my mind, too, but he just can't seem to do it.
> 
> Making things simple and clear makes it easier for our spouses to do what we want. Even if it would feel even better if they just knew, without being told.


God points. I had this conversation after I read languages of love book. I expressed exactly the type of things hat keep my tank filled, one being appreciation. She nodded and said ok. I also tried to get her to read the book, but no luck. I'll have to post it on facebook, then she'll read it.

The only thing along these lines tgat I ever feel like she understood and felt is when we talked about happiness. She said she wanted to make me happy. This was a direct contradiction to what her and the counselor said, you can't try to make other adults happy, they have to do it themselves. I basicsllky said I don't expect her to make me happy. It's on me. To be honest, I have zero expectations of her today. I'm muddling along in a state of uncertainty. Counseling starts next week so I can begin to work on coping with her inability to talk to me about anything important to us and her. I'm going to counseling because she won't open up to me.. That's what it feels like anyways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I'm really glad the counseling will start soon. You certainly need to feel validated, and to learn as much self-validation as possible. It will also be good for an in-person outside source to help you set healthy limits in your relationship.

I know we hear that a lot, that your spouse cannot make you happy, that it is all on us. Well, I don't think think either is true. Yes, we are all responsible for ourselves, but spouses have a huge amount of influence on each other. We need to work together.

And I have to say, I am amazed at the number of men on TAM who read books but whose wives will not read them. I thought only men refused to read relationship books, or would read them, but with little or no interest. Good for all of you who are doing that!


----------



## LongWalk

BB,

re: your wife's lack of sexual passion
She briefly got into sex while on vacation. I don't think that's an unusual pattern. She wanted the vacation to be completely pleasurable and romantic in contrast to ordinary life. She has a need for excitement.

Suppose, and I am not recommending it but merely throwing it up as a hypothetical question to seek the truth, you were to tell your your wife that you saw her as a hot wife that you wouldn't mind treating her to threesome that centered on her. She could have a fantasy come real, a guy she would find terrific for a banging session on some childless weekend.

No, you should not do this. But wouldn't it be terrible to think the idea alone would stimulate desire on her part?

There was a Christian guy with a very uptight LD wife who gave hi duty sex. The only way he could get her orgasmic was to babble about some threesome fantasy. He wasn't interested in a threesome. He would have spun any sex story or employed any toy to get things going. He, too, wanted feeling and appreciation, not just sex.

I suppose you have been following neuklas's thread, which will be an excellent test for changing oneself to end the unhappiness of being shot down for years. 

If you have to become a sort of PUA in your own marriage to get sex that is a major life adjustment. If affection and appreciation are missing, then you have to leave or accept erosion of your self respect.

Have you read Road Scholar's thread _No sex after her affair_? Very moving. It deals with the same dynamics of desire.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Had counseling session. Was just like a reintroduction really. Wife didn't ask much after. Counselor said she sad glad I came back, maybe financial reasons? It was ok. I can't figure our if it's a venting session or what it will be. Never tried independent counseling. 

Things still ok at home. I an just in a funk. No baby talk or hints. B3 doing well. Been looking for a good book to read, but trying to be mindful of what I read, as she would likely be on couch with me while I'm reading it. So I'm uncomfortable reading book on CSa in front of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> So I'm uncomfortable reading book on CSa in front of her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why? Okay, I get why, but at this point, I am not sure that ignoring the elephant in the room is healthy for you two.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why? Okay, I get why, but at this point, I am not sure that ignoring the elephant in the room is healthy for you two.


My logical side agrees. Do I risk further isolation ? I feel like I might. Remenver, this is sort of a one sided rug sweeper. Topic hits her wrong doings and counseling stopped. Counseling hits her CSa, counseling stops. This you get why I am skeptical on IC... Are there two people in this marriage of not? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> My logical side agrees. Do I risk further isolation ? I feel like I might. Remenver, this is sort of a one sided rug sweeper. Topic hits her wrong doings and counseling stopped. Counseling hits her CSa, counseling stops. This you get why I am skeptical on IC... Are there two people in this marriage of not?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Counseling should hit all the painful issues, otherwise we'd only be talking about sports in IC...


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> My logical side agrees.* Do I risk further isolation ? I feel like I might.* Remenver, this is sort of a one sided rug sweeper. Topic hits her wrong doings and counseling stopped. Counseling hits her CSa, counseling stops. This you get why I am skeptical on IC... *Are there two people in this marriage of not? *
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It would show that you are serious about the issue. It would be leadership, I think.

I'm sorry this is so hard, BB. I don't know why Life sends us these hardships, except that we can grow from them.

Just know that we all have them, in some area. You are not alone.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> My logical side agrees. Do I risk further isolation ? I feel like I might. Remenver, this is sort of a one sided rug sweeper. Topic hits her wrong doings and counseling stopped. Counseling hits her CSa, counseling stops. This you get why I am skeptical on IC... Are there two people in this marriage of not?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And this is your problem that you need to fix. You would rather cling to your misery than have an uncomfortable conversation with your wife. God forbid you say something that makes her unhappy. So you have a ready made excuse to not read the book and deal with things.

Have you considered that you unwillingness to address issues head on is part of why your wife is less attracted to you?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> Counseling should hit all the painful issues, otherwise we'd only be talking about sports in IC...


I don't know about that. As a Detroit Lions fan, what could I then talk about?


----------



## john117

If he's convinced conversations on difficult topics are pointless, why bother ?

Likewise for her. Counseling helps facilitate this by removing the "he said he said" part and introducing a trusted third party into the mix.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> If he's convinced conversations on difficult topics are pointless, why bother ?


But it is not even that. Reading a book about CSA is good for him to help his understanding of his situation. Yet he won't even do that because it would lead to her being unhappy. He avoids conflict at all costs, including to himself and his marriage.


----------



## jld

Tall Average Guy said:


> And this is your problem that you need to fix. You would rather cling to your misery than have an uncomfortable conversation with your wife. God forbid you say something that makes her unhappy. So you have a ready made excuse to not read the book and deal with things.
> 
> *Have you considered that you unwillingness to address issues head on is part of why your wife is less attracted to you?*


Leadership is really attractive, BB. Anyone who can address an issue head on, regardless of the response they will receive, is a leader. It is easier for all of us to sit back and complain, feel resentful, gossip, etc. It takes character to speak up, clearly and honestly. It takes willingness to accept rejection. The other person may not respond, may blow us off, may just point out all our faults, and leave the room.

And if they do, then it takes character for us to not chase them, defending ourselves, but to really look at those faults and see how we can improve them.

It is so hard. No one wants to do it. But how else do we solve problems, BB?


----------



## jld

Tall Average Guy said:


> But it is not even that. Reading a book about CSA is good for him to help his understanding of his situation. Yet he won't even do that because it would lead to her being unhappy. He avoids conflict at all costs, including to himself and his marriage.


Is there some truth to this, BB?


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> But it is not even that. Reading a book about CSA is good for him to help his understanding of his situation. Yet he won't even do that because it would lead to her being unhappy. He avoids conflict at all costs, including to himself and his marriage.



Him reading the book on his own, yes. Not next to her on the couch tho.

There are cases where initially avoiding conflict is critical. The key word is initially. At some point it has to be brought out.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> Him reading the book on his own, yes. Not next to her on the couch tho.
> 
> There are cases where initially avoiding conflict is critical. The key word is initially. At some point it has to be brought out.


This entire relationship has been an exercise in avoiding conflict for both of them. She shuts down all the while pretending that things are fine. He returns the favor by changing nothing, all the while venting here and refusing to tell her the truth about his feelings.


----------



## john117

Tall Average Guy said:


> This entire relationship has been an exercise in avoiding conflict for both of them. She shuts down all the while pretending that things are fine. He returns the favor by changing nothing, all the while venting here and refusing to tell her the truth about his feelings.



Agreed. Unfortunately conflict does not in itself guarantee things are going to be easier to communicate or be fixed.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

john117 said:


> Agreed. Unfortunately conflict does not in itself guarantee things are going to be easier to communicate or be fixed.


I don't disagree at all. But since avoiding conflict has not worked at all, I don't see how continuing that plan can be expected to achieve different results.


----------



## john117

Avoid conflict up to the point that you are educated about CSA in general and can make a few educated guesses about what's going on with your partner. The Machiavelli in me would try to gather some intelligence about what exactly happened etc.. 

Once you have educated yourself sufficiently and have an idea of how to start the conversation it's time for the real chat.


----------



## MEM2020

I'm going to make an assumption and then apply some logic:

Assumption: Having a second child and/or a nicer home is very important to B2. Note I said OR, because I'm not certain about either of them individually. But at least one of those things is a major life priority to B2 based on her pattern of conversations with BB about the one couple in their circle who is wealthier than they are. 

Given that assumption, one of the following conclusions is true:
1. B2 believes that she will be able to coerce/cajole Boston into providing what (house/child) she wants via some combo of carrot and stick. 
2. B2 believes that if Boston remains unwilling to give her what she wants, she can replace him with one of her Facebook suitors.
3. B2 is committed to the marriage and to Boston. However, she is so deathly afraid to open up to him, that she is willing to forgo (house/child) in order to keep her true self - hidden from him.

This doesn't mean they can't have a successful marriage. It means that they have some work to do. Consider the breakdown of 1-3.

If (1) is true, Boston is largely to blame. He has avoided saying how he really feels - which is: I'm not increasing my commitment / exposure level to someone who hides her true self from me. In fact, her avoidance of candor is the main reason I don't really trust her. 

If (2) is true, Boston is partly to blame. He hasn't said what he really thinks about B2 keeping other guys 'on deck'. A healthy response to that behavior would be Boston telling her: I can't really take your marital commitment level too seriously, when you encourage this amount of male attention.

If (3) is true, Boston can at the least discover that. He merely needs to let B2 know that he absolutely won't even consider increasing hs commitment level unless B2 opens up. 

--------
As for Boston's individual behavior. He claims to have no private time in which he can read a book about CSA without B2 knowing about it. It's very odd that B has given his private time away to such an extent that he can't read a book without B2 knowing. 

It makes me think that he's not proactively managing the emotional thermostat in the house. Normally that happens when someone is hoping to nice their way through a very bad situation. And who knows, maybe he'll be the first guy to ever pull that off. 

I'm not suggesting that he adopt a combative posture. Quite the opposite. If it were me, I'd open with: 

I love B2 and B3 and am committed to them. I think B2 loves me as well, however I don't feel that either of us trusts the other. And the result is, she knows as little about my thoughts/feelings as I do about hers. 





Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't disagree at all. But since avoiding conflict has not worked at all, I don't see how continuing that plan can be expected to achieve different results.


----------



## john117

MEM, try starting the negotiation for a business issue with "I don't really think we trust each other...". Trust has to be earned, and if neither side is willing to go at it then it's not going to work.

People are not terribly difficult to read. Boston may be "afraid" to read a CSA book because it could reveal exactly what he is in for. Not too different a story from B2. 

Both of them need to realize they can't DIY their way thru CSA and they can't ignore it long term. 

Start the conversation by identifying long term benefits of dealing with the issue, not by identifying the issue to begin with.

Also remember different people deal with the same event in different ways. My father could (and would) talk about his experiences with WW2 for hours. My mother simply shut WW2 out and rarely spoke about it.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
Here's how this looks to me:
- B2 has been dishonest with B on numerous occasions when it served her purposes.
- Her CSA story which was very, very limited in terms of real information referenced an unnamed relative. And yet, Boston has seen no signs of any strain with any of her family members. 

I'm 50-50 that she simply doesn't like sex, or doesn't like it with Boston. I believe she's had some sexual experiences she disliked. But I wonder if she thought it might be easier for Boston to hear:
- I don't like sex 
- I had some CSA (followed by very sketchy description)

What would have happened if she said this instead:
- I liked sex with my old boyfriend 
- I like you, and knew you were good husband material, but sexually you never did it for me. And I lost more desire / respect during the 3-4 years of you tolerating a 90 percent rejection rate. 

So here's the thing. This isn't a business relationship John. And she's lied about some big stuff and stonewalled about other things. 

That's why I think it's a huge mistake to start down the path of - making it all about CSA. Instead, identify the trust issue, lay out the specific areas where they arent being straight with each other. And as for CSA/or not - simply make the statement that B2 is clearly tolerating sex with him and let her take that conversation forward as to the reasons. 

While many of her symptoms are consistent with CSA, it's also true that plenty of people (men and women) are selfish/low empathy/deceptive/low drive - and have never been abused. 




john117 said:


> MEM, try starting the negotiation for a business issue with "I don't really think we trust each other...". Trust has to be earned, and if neither side is willing to go at it then it's not going to work.
> 
> People are not terribly difficult to read. Boston may be "afraid" to read a CSA book because it could reveal exactly what he is in for. Not too different a story from B2.
> 
> Both of them need to realize they can't DIY their way thru CSA and they can't ignore it long term.
> 
> Start the conversation by identifying long term benefits of dealing with the issue, not by identifying the issue to begin with.
> 
> Also remember different people deal with the same event in different ways. My father could (and would) talk about his experiences with WW2 for hours. My mother simply shut WW2 out and rarely spoke about it.


----------



## john117

I agree, but...

CSA to some extent can be addressed by therapy. No amount of therapy will correct low empathy or low desire or selfishness.

So, the reason to "focus on CSA" is really to get some face time with a professional who can't be smoked as easily as B.

Having dealt with a survivor of CSA (my first flame) I can tell you that it's a pretty hideous thing. In a large extended family it's not difficult for the family to rug sweep it to oblivion. I learned the details in my flame's case only by going around the system. Said flame pretty much never recovered despite being a professor of clinical psychology when she grew up. So I'm a bit more willing to cut B2 some slack.

The trust issue has to be addressed also as you point out. No point blowing serious $ on IC etc if the parties don't trust each other...


----------



## MEM2020

John,
Yesterday M2 and I had a brief discussion regarding acts of service. I said:
1. when you ask me to perform an act of service I hear (do you love me)
2. when I ask you to perform an act of service you hear (He wants to control me, he's trying to bend me to his will)

Before I get into her response I'll simply say that (1) is my sincere perception of what is happening. And further, that when I deny her request for an act of service, M2 acts the exact same way I did when she declined sex in our late twenties to late thirties. That is to say, she has an extremely negative reaction to it. It's the verbal equivalent to responding to: 
I love you, with: 
Well I don't love you.

---------
M2's response to this. Silence. Dead fvckng silence. Fine by me. I cannot force her to acknowledge what is empirically obvious. And that's ok. I know what I know and am comfortable with that. 








john117 said:


> I agree, but...
> 
> CSA to some extent can be addressed by therapy. No amount of therapy will correct low empathy or low desire or selfishness.
> 
> So, the reason to "focus on CSA" is really to get some face time with a professional who can't be smoked as easily as B.
> 
> Having dealt with a survivor of CSA (my first flame) I can tell you that it's a pretty hideous thing. In a large extended family it's not difficult for the family to rug sweep it to oblivion. I learned the details in my flame's case only by going around the system. Said flame pretty much never recovered despite being a professor of clinical psychology when she grew up. So I'm a bit more willing to cut B2 some slack.
> 
> The trust issue has to be addressed also as you point out. No point blowing serious $ on IC etc if the parties don't trust each other...


----------



## john117

Well, there is no entry for "acts of service" in my play book. 

For example, on occasion I have applied my PowerPoint / Photoshop wizardry to my wife's dull presentations, making a dry blah blah blah presentation come alive. I don't expect anything in return. Likewise she may review my SPSS analysis code to make sure I did not fat finger the wrong test... These are not acts of service, not any more than calling the help desk is.

On a wider scale there is duty and practical considerations. Some things she likes to do - mulch or trim the yard, or me to paint a room or fix drywall. 

I would not divine love as the cause of me taking her car for an oil change tomorrow at the Paducah BMW John Deere dealer. It's an expensive sucker and I want to make sure it's done right.

I really don't see love as the motive or force in everything going on between two spouses. There's practical considerations that are in play, too. enjoy mind games as much as the next guy but when I'm driving her X3 to the dealer tomorrow all I think of is the awesome free coffee they have, not how many bonus points I will get...


----------



## jld

Lol, john, you really hate that book, don't you?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Lol, john, you really hate that book, don't you?



I only have one love language... Camera gear!!! 

I read the 5LL and in my view if you need a book to tell you that stuff you shouldn't be allowed to date / procreate / etc.

Let's see.... What love language between me and my car? Is changing oil an act of service or a really good idea?


----------



## MEM2020

John,
No doubt it's a subset of what I do for her. Like you, some of what I do is based on autopilot practicality. 

But once M2 gets in bed at night - we have this little dance. And I can hear the subtext in her requests as well as my cats can hear birds with their little parabolic eartennaes....

And that's not just ok - it's nice. I LIKE doing nice things for M2 when she's tired or sick. Always have. 

But damn if she isn't still stuck in some power struggle of her own. Twice in the last few weeks she has said late at night: Would you mind getting me a club soda, I brought you tea this morning. 

And I respond as I always do: Glad to, I get you club soda because I love you, not for any other reason. 

As for M2, she started bringing me tea in the morning after a full year of conflict over that request. A full year of pretending she couldn't remember or didn't recall how many ice cubes to put in. A conflict that only ended because she absolutely knew that our MC was on the verge of adding this to the long list of control issues she has. 

As for me - I could easily make my tea the night before and put it on my night table. But I had decided that if we reached that point, I was terminating her platinum card and she could find someone else to fulfill her 'acts of service' need. Morning tea was simply a proxy for any act of service I requested. 

And FWIW - M2 does lots of stuff. And that was her position for 20+ years. 'I do lots of nice stuff for you' she would say. And finally I said 'yep - totally agree - unless I ASK you to do something for me - me asking puts you into full passive aggressive combat mode and that's a non-starter going forward'.

JLD nailed this. She explained it better than anyone else ever has. 




john117 said:


> Well, there is no entry for "acts of service" in my play book.
> 
> For example, on occasion I have applied my PowerPoint / Photoshop wizardry to my wife's dull presentations, making a dry blah blah blah presentation come alive. I don't expect anything in return. Likewise she may review my SPSS analysis code to make sure I did not fat finger the wrong test... These are not acts of service, not any more than calling the help desk is.
> 
> On a wider scale there is duty and practical considerations. Some things she likes to do - mulch or trim the yard, or me to paint a room or fix drywall.
> 
> I would not divine love as the cause of me taking her car for an oil change tomorrow at the Paducah BMW John Deere dealer. It's an expensive sucker and I want to make sure it's done right.
> 
> I really don't see love as the motive or force in everything going on between two spouses. There's practical considerations that are in play, too. enjoy mind games as much as the next guy but when I'm driving her X3 to the dealer tomorrow all I think of is the awesome free coffee they have, not how many bonus points I will get...


----------



## MEM2020

Yep - Camera gear.
And shared interests.
And sex.
And physical affection.






john117 said:


> I only have one love language... Camera gear!!!
> 
> I read the 5LL and in my view if you need a book to tell you that stuff you shouldn't be allowed to date / procreate / etc.
> 
> Let's see.... What love language between me and my car? Is changing oil an act of service or a really good idea?


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Yep - Camera gear.
> 
> And shared interests.
> 
> And sex.
> 
> And physical affection.



Even camera gear is not a love language. I can afford what I want so it's not like I have to wait for a random act of love...

Shared interests... Maybe. Not always.

Sex/affection? We are defining sex in terms of love and love in terms of sex. That's a circular reference. 

So, any wonder I think 5LL isn't worth what I paid to read it from the Paducah public library?


----------



## john117

Not sure I read this right. 

Ask for a tea at night? Take care of M2 if she's sick or tired?

That's what people do when they get married... Do you think cavemen had their own version (kill mammoth - skin mammoth - bring berries...). Of course not.

Life is a lot simpler than that my friend. Dr. J2 does a lot of acts of service for me - I haven't cooked in three decades - and since she works from home she can take care of service calls etc. 

Look at the purest form of romance. Teenagers. Do they have their own LL's? Help me with precalc and we'll make out like bandits if I get an A?

Love in my view is all about communicating at a level devoid of practical or material things. The moment you throw platinum cards and Nikon lenses and soft drinks into the picture it becomes a transaction.

Look at love among simple cultures. Same deal. I'll help you herd the flock and we will xxx yyy zzz... I'm not sure I agree. Love is not a practical feeling and practical considerations mixed in tend to taint it (affirmation? Like it will make me feel good to hear J2 praise my bicycling prowess (all of 7 miles today lolz). "Oh honey I'm so proud of you". Well duh, if I had one foot in the grave and biked for 7 miles yes, I would be proud too but I'm not dead yet. So the complement would be wasted.

Acts of service? Duh, remind me again 'bout the direct deposit fairy?

Quality time? Isn't that what people do? Do I have to put conditions and map out the interactions on the couch?

Physical touch? Well duh, scratch that and watch him b!tch on TAM daily 

View attachment 25026


----------



## bestyet2be

john117 said:


> ...Love in my view is all about communicating at a level devoid of practical or material things. The moment you throw platinum cards and Nikon lenses and soft drinks into the picture it becomes a transaction.


I've heard it argued that there are *exactly three types of human relationships: dominance, communality, and reciprocity*. And if ever these become confused, the results range from awkward to tragic. It sounds like you're describing confusion between communality and reciprocity.

I'm a fan of Steven Pinker. You might want to watch *this*. It's long, but I think worth it. Among other things, he references the work of Alan Fiske on this subject:"The dominance or authority relationship is governed by the ethos, ‘‘Don’t mess with me.’’ It has a basis in the dominance hierarchies common in the animal kingdom, although in humans, it is based not just on brawn or seniority but on social recognition: how much others are willing to defer to you. It is generally communicated by psychophysical cues to strength and resolve.​"The communality or communal sharing relationship conforms to the ethos, ‘‘What’s mine is thine; what’s thine is mine.’’ It naturally arises among kin, who are bound by shared genes, within monogamous pair-bonds, who are bound by their shared children, and by close friends and allies, who are bound by shared interests. It can be ex-tended to others by nonverbal cues of solidarity such as physical contact, communal meals, and coordinated movements and experiences.

"The reciprocity or equality-matching relationship obeys the ethos, ‘‘You scratch my back; I’ll scratch yours.’’ It has an evolutionary basis in reciprocal altruism. It is usually signaled by tit-for-tat exchanges or division into equal portions but, unlike the other two relationship types, can be negotiated by people via explicit verbal contracts.

"The assumed relationship type among a pair of individuals has dramatic effects on the behavior that is acceptable between them; not surprisingly, given that the relationship type governs the acceptable distribution of resources in a given social setting . Behavior that is acceptable in one relationship type can thus be anomalous in another. For example, at a party, one might help oneself to a shrimp off the plate of one’s spouse or sibling or close friend (communality), but not off the plate of one’s boss (dominance). Also, a guest at a dinner party (communality) would be perceived as crass, not fair, if at the end of the meal he pulled out his wallet and offered to pay his host for the meal (reciprocity)."​


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> My logical side agrees. Do I risk further isolation ? I feel like I might. Remenver, this is sort of a one sided rug sweeper. Topic hits her wrong doings and counseling stopped. Counseling hits her CSa, counseling stops. This you get why I am skeptical on IC... Are there two people in this marriage of not?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Changing you changes the dynamics of your realationships.



Learning more about yourself and resolving inner conflicts and counterproductive behaviors will make getting to your happier future easier and sooner.



You can do that for yourself and B3, regardless of whether your wife chooses to do the same for herself.


----------



## LongWalk

A couple of pages ago I asked the following question:



> Suppose, and I am not recommending it but merely throwing it up as a hypothetical question to seek the truth, you were to tell your your wife that you saw her as a hot wife that you wouldn't mind treating her to threesome that centered on her. She could have a fantasy come real, a guy she would find terrific for a banging session on some childless weekend.
> 
> No, you should not do this. But wouldn't it be terrible to think the idea alone would stimulate desire on her part?


I hesitated before asking this question because it evokes unpleasant thoughts, but did you dismiss it as irrelevant? Mem also touched upon this by saying that your wife, if she opened up, might say that sex with someone else had been better.

To what degree is she sexually dead to you? To all men?

Remaking yourself is a fine project. If she were to remake herself, learning to be happy without you, would you notice the difference?


----------



## john117

I'm not sure I buy the reciprocity type as it applies here. It almost feels to me that the love languages, such as they are, may help the relationship start, but don't mean much down the road in the sense of being compatible. People change too. Sometimes you can shower someone with one or more components and if the love ain't there you're wasting your time.

My objection to 5LL really is not over whether LL's exist (for many people some LL's do "exist") but that one could be so oblivious as to not notice that they are not meeting their partner's needs and to be needing a book to sort it out.

Do we have couples so clueless that they need advice on that?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> My objection to 5LL really is not over whether LL's exist (for many people some LL's do "exist") but that one could be so oblivious as to not notice that they are not meeting their partner's needs and to be needing a book to sort it out.
> 
> Do we have couples so clueless that they need advice on that?


Well, I felt like the book was helpful to me. I am married to someone whose only love language, imo, is acts of service. And it feels like it is almost exclusively him to me. It is very hard to do anything for him, because he just seems so self-sufficient. 

The only thing I can really do for him that he is not just as happy doing for himself is sex, and even there he is super easy to please. Really no challenge at all. So I often feel almost unnecessary in his life, and that I could very easily be replaced, or my position just done away with altogether.

Fortunately for me, dh does not see it that way.

The 5 LL, when I read it (I don't think dh ever has) made me see that dh shows his love to me through acts of service. Words of affirmation are my main love language, and hearing that other women, too, often don't get as much as they want of this, made me feel more normal. 

Every woman wants to feel loved, and if her language is not spoken, even if the man speaks another language, she will feel disappointed. The 5LL helped me see this objectively, and not with so much frustration. It helped take the excessive emotion out of my frustration.

MEM said once that my dh is low affect. Actually, MEM has said many insightful things about my dh. I know my dh is a great person, and people IRL have told me countless times how lucky I am to be married to him.

But when I am sitting home alone, or when I call him overseas and he is watching the news or a soccer match while "talking" with me, when we have spent maybe 10 minutes really conversing all day, I don't feel like any kind of priority for him. He swears that is not true, but after 20 years it can really feel like I am just a fixture, a reliable fixture, in his life. 

So to avoid just hanging up on him in frustration, I have to turn things around in my mind, and find some kind of positive aspect to all this. Like others here, I focus on the ways I do feel love from him. It is comforting. 

When you are committed to lifetime, monogamous, caring marriage, a kind, gentle book like 5LL can help you see your spouse in a better light. 

Is it for simpleminded people? Maybe so. Maybe some of us are really that clueless.


----------



## john117

Well...

Not simpleminded but straightforward. 

You correctly guessed that like many self made immigrants, he is self sufficient. And that he likes to do things for you. Leave it at that.

Likewise he knows that with an army of kids, some unusual choices in diet  and so on your main concern would be validation. Once again leave it at that.

It may be nice to know that some people like this instead of that, but I fear we often look for the easy Cliff Notes version of things in life. 

Maybe I'm overthinking things...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> It may be nice to know that some people like this instead of that, but I fear we often look for the easy Cliff Notes version of things in life.
> 
> Maybe I'm overthinking things...


Your situation is way more complicated than mine, john. Our marriages are really at different ends of the spectrum. And you are very smart and do not have the need for a book that makes you feel good. I fall every time for something that just makes me feel good.

What you say about immigrants makes a lot of sense. It takes courage and drive to leave one's homeland. 

I'll have to think about that one on validation. I think I have always sought that.

And for sure, that "leave it at that" advice is good, if I could only follow it.

If anyone is overthinking things here, it is not you, lol.

What do you think of HNHN?


----------



## john117

HNHN is a lot better book and certainly a LOT better for younger couples starting out. But it has a bit of 70's Leave it to Beaver marriage mentality to it, too. If you assume the typical readers are young 20's yea, it's an awesome book and I bet my girls would benefit. But grown ups? I feel the author oversimplifies things a little bit.

I do agree with the Love Bank concept as it is very easy to comprehend. But common sense never hurt anyone. And affair proof? Sorry, the men I know are two kinds, one would not have an affair if Hale Berry propositioned them and the other kind won't be swayed to NOT have an affair when it comes to that so...

If you're the author don't feel bad. In general self help books are way too general (perhaps Dr. Spock will write a special text "how to raise your high-spirited, sleepless, colicky, Eurasian child and live to tell about it".

Maybe my faith in DIY books has been shaken by the sheer volume of them. Consider pregnancy books. Today there's a huge number of books, back then just a couple good ones. So... 

Even BPD books. I read two dozen BPD books. I could summarize each in eight words or less ("you are done. Live with it. Or run").


----------



## jld

Lol, John. I will have to give HNHN another look. I skimmed through it at Christmastime but was not really moved in any way. But I wasn't really looking to solve a particular problem, either.

One thing I do remember when we looked at that questionnaire was dh's saying that domestic/family support is really important to him. It's what allows him to do the work he does. 

I totally agree that these books do not address the complex problems that can develop in marriages.


----------



## MEM2020

Didn't J2 previously ask for help with yard work? IIRC you reached a point where you lost your willingness to remove tree stumps....





john117 said:


> Well, there is no entry for "acts of service" in my play book.
> 
> For example, on occasion I have applied my PowerPoint / Photoshop wizardry to my wife's dull presentations, making a dry blah blah blah presentation come alive. I don't expect anything in return. Likewise she may review my SPSS analysis code to make sure I did not fat finger the wrong test... These are not acts of service, not any more than calling the help desk is.
> 
> On a wider scale there is duty and practical considerations. Some things she likes to do - mulch or trim the yard, or me to paint a room or fix drywall.
> 
> I would not divine love as the cause of me taking her car for an oil change tomorrow at the Paducah BMW John Deere dealer. It's an expensive sucker and I want to make sure it's done right.
> 
> I really don't see love as the motive or force in everything going on between two spouses. There's practical considerations that are in play, too. enjoy mind games as much as the next guy but when I'm driving her X3 to the dealer tomorrow all I think of is the awesome free coffee they have, not how many bonus points I will get...


----------



## john117

jld said:


> One thing I do remember when we looked at that questionnaire was dh's saying that domestic/family support is really important to him. It's what allows him to do the work he does. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Let me see... How Dr. J2 would have answered this one
> 
> Today she was astonished to find that our young girl has two dentists. She has to drive DD2 to a dental cleaning appointment on next week, a rare occasion. She only knew the orthodontist because he is one handsome devil (he is) and one if the techs is from her country...


----------



## jld

I don't bring in money, john. I have to do something helpful, lol.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I don't bring in money, john. I have to do something helpful, lol.



Getting 5 kids to do their homework (4 boys no less) has to count for something (besides reduced parental sanity )


----------



## jld

Lol, john. I think I'm only semi-successful with the boys on that. But dh assures me I have job security.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> Physical touch? Well duh, scratch that and watch him b!tch on TAM daily


Sooooo true. Do you mind if I quote you? :smthumbup:


----------



## MEM2020

Happy Father's Day Boston. And John. Your children are lucky to have you in their lives. 

And happy Father's Day to Dug - JLD - I am certain you made him feel special today. 







jld said:


> Lol, john. I think I'm only semi-successful with the boys on that. But dh assures me I have job security.


----------



## LongWalk

John said:


> Even BPD books. I read two dozen BPD books. I could summarize each in eight words or less ("you are done. Live with it. Or run").


And what conclusion can one draw from this? Choose a path and carry it out.

Trickster's wife got so fed up she told him he could have an open marriage for one year and once he actual started meeting women for coffee his wife, though she still doesn't feel desire wanted to have sex. That is still some sort of desire. She also wanted to cancel the get out of jail for cheating card.

neuklas did the 180, not certain of what it really meant and he got a response from his wife.

The question I asked earlier drew a complete blank. Which means it was either a good question or I was a jerk to ask it. Since we are all anonymous what harm is there in probing?

Boston,

I think day that you allow yourself to say that you won't go on like this and at the same time you detach yourself from you wife and work on being happy, you will either spark change in her or you will be able to face divorce.

Another question: If you knew a better woman and a more satisfying relationship awaited you post D, would you still be hanging around?

I wonder how many men who lack affection in a sexless marriage cheat. Probably a fair percent. How many have the courage to inform their wife that request an open marriage? Probably very few.


----------



## BostonBruins32

First of all, b3 has surpassed me. Writing her own name at 3. She gave me a card and we did an early breakfast (630am at diner) . It's what we do. 

B2 gave card and gift. Reflected verbally on me being a great dad. Barf. 

Then said this fall is when she wants to try for b4. .... Umm hello? I said 3 weeks ago I'm not interested in more kids as our marriage has some work to go. Hello earth. Have we met. 

Wasn't going to dive into it on Father's Day:. Just told her I'm not ready for more kids anytime soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

That's some good fine motor skills to write her name at this age!! Go B3!


----------



## jld

Be transparent with her, BB . . .


----------



## BostonBruins32

She's crazy john. Came out of the womb talking clearly and has moved on to reading and writing.

Jld: I have now told her a few times why I don't want more children. I will try to explain it to her next time in german or mandarin... Just something different to get the point across. This is why I literally thought she was drunk when she told me she wanted to start in the fall.. " do you think sept or oct?".. What the ? I literally just told her no kids until this marriage improves . I even put more of the ball in my court saying that I need to regain trust in her and that her actions do not provide me with trust that I can count on her ( emotionally or physically) 

I am doing it wrong g because it's not sinking in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BostonBruins32

It's like negotiating with b3.. 

"Only one show before bed"
"Ok daddy , one show"
... 49 seconds later..
"So daddy just two shows, then bed".. Followed by a tough sell on how she agreed to just one show.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Boston, get a bicycle. After a measly 5-6 miles a day I have absolutely no energy left for anything, and my nether region feels like it is shot with a caulk tube's worth of lidocaine . 

If anyone can engage in intimate affairs after a 20 mile ride I gotta wonder... Best excuse ever!


----------



## jld

That's good, BB. Just be as transparent with her as you can be. Clear and direct. 

If you were upset with her about what she said to you yesterday (the barfing stuff), tell her about it now. Get it off your chest. She doesn't have to agree.

I'm just suggesting No Hiding, No Passive-Aggressive. Just clear, direct communication.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Fair enough jld. The barf comment was more of a role my eyes type level if frustration . It wasn't a legit eat at me frustration. 

If you want to know what's reay f-d up: the entirety of Father's Day made me really feel awful . It was like a reflection on where things are. I got a card from b2 saying appreciate this and that. She expressed her love for me and how I'm her best friend. For some reason this triggered the memory of her expressing love to me on last years anniversary then 1 day later messaging her ex on facebook avout missing him. Things felt ok then, but regardless of what she told me, they weren't. This is part if why u absolutely do not trust anything she does or says to me. Because she does not open up to me and I was duped last year. This is where counseling can help me, but what I don't understand is if you were just listening to her and watching her behavior last year, you'd never guess she was headed for an EA or a temp split. 

How could I ever trust things are ok again. 

I shared this exact sentiment before. She said she was sorry. Then said she'll never leave me. I told her I wasn't looking for her never to leave me but rather just be honest with me rather than be sneaky about letting her displeasure with me bubble up.

I guess I'm just in a bad spot lately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Boston, 

You love your daughter. Your wife sees that and feels secure in your commitment to your DNA. She deems your genes good enough to go for another child.

What greater expression of love could you want? Women love and hate pregnancy. It changes their bodies and causes sensations that are akin to what we would perceive as illness or torture. Pregnancy adventures a woman's health.

Each child arguably lowers her sex ranking and makes her more dependent on you.

If you did not have children, would you stay?

Your life follows a pattern. Jld suggests that plain speech will solve the problem. I suppose the speech she envisions runs like this:

Dear, I love you very much but Sometimes I don't feel that it is reciprocal. Perhaps you do love me but our love languages are different dialects.

You would like to have another child. This requires sex but ordinarily I feel we are in a nearly sexless marriage. At least we do not have passion.

If you spoke my dialect of love, you would have been initiating wild monkey sex often for several months before broaching the idea of another child.

To me another child would be wonderful but I fear it would also lead to a several more years of marriage without Eros. And in the end we would come to resent each other."

Is this, jld, close to what you are recommending?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## BostonBruins32

LongWalk said:


> Boston,
> 
> You love your daughter. Your wife sees that and feels secure in your commitment to your DNA. She deems your genes good enough to go for another child.
> 
> What greater expression of love could you want? Women love and hate pregnancy. It changes their bodies and causes sensations that are akin to what we would perceive as illness or torture. Pregnancy adventures a woman's health.
> 
> Each child arguably lowers her sex ranking and makes her more dependent on you.
> 
> If you did not have children, would you stay?
> 
> Your life follows a pattern. Jld suggests that plain speech will solve the problem. I suppose the speech she envisions runs like this:
> 
> Dear, I love you very much but Sometimes I don't feel that it is reciprocal. Perhaps you do love me but our love languages are different dialects.
> 
> You would like to have another child. This requires sex but ordinarily I feel we are in a nearly sexless marriage. At least we do not have passion.
> 
> If you spoke my dialect of love, you would have been initiating wild monkey sex often for several months before broaching the idea of another child.
> 
> To me another child would be wonderful but I fear it would also lead to a several more years of marriage without Eros. And in the end we would come to resent each other."
> 
> Is this, jld, close to what you are recommending?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


WIth all do respect to JLD.. I have told my wife nearly everything I've mentioned on here. I flat out told her I don't want any more children until this marriage feels mended. Then I explained what the marriage looks like through my lense and where the gaps are within myself and between us. I also explained that having sex a handful of times per year, and then then ramping it up for one week in October juust to have a baby does not work for me and makes me feel used. She has/had virtually no comment to this. Just listened. Said sorry or something short like that. I wanted to hear her side. I asked her. I got no response. I wanted to hear her agree or disagree or explain how she sees thing. but nothing.

I've heard JLD or Gettinit or Blonde mention that if thier husbands offered transparency like this it would melt them. My wife is like a 9th inning relief pitcher, no emotion, just ice in the veins. 

And I'll reiterate, my wife hasnt been unaffectionate towards me or cold towards me fo a few months now. Things APPEAR palably better. My issue is that I dont trust the state of the marriage right now. I don't believe the way things look or feel right now is real. Right now, the problem is with me. The problem is with me because I'm just not good at coping with no feedback or communication. 

I can't feel in love with someone that I don't know or understand.


----------



## jld

LW, I think transparency and active listening are really important tools for solving disputes. But talk is not worth much if it is not backed up by action.

I am hoping that BB will develop inner security through counseling. His wife, seeing a change in him, could be inspired to seek her own healing. 

We want marriages to succeed if at all possible. I think BB could be the leader in restoring his marriage.


----------



## Jetranger

john117 said:


> If anyone can engage in intimate affairs after a 20 mile ride I gotta wonder... Best excuse ever!


I (and I think the other person) would want a shower first.


----------



## LongWalk

BB,

Thanks for the reply. Early in your thread I concluded that you are a thoughtful person dealing with an inconsiderate spouse. For some women who have a touch of some personality disorder, a husband is a project to be managed. Her lack of affect suggest that she does not empathize. Hence the silences. It's not on purpose.

That is why I made the outrageous suggestion earlier. I merely tried to picture her response. She does not seem to react like the average woman.

Talking about your daughter, well, I have two. They are very different characters. And this is largely genetically determined IMO. D16 is simply smart. She understands grown up and children well. She never opens her mouth an blurts out anything undiplomatic. We never taught her this. She was just born this way. She does Rubik's cubes for fun and has an easy time in school. 

D19 is emotionally more volatile. She does all the female shxt testing. PMS's. Gets good grades but has to work hard. She cancelled her first three college application choices (here it's a computerized system in this country, no personal essay or interviews) to get her top choice to the top. I think she made a good decision but only after months of agonizing.

Right now she in the UK with a classmate who got into Cambridge. The two of them are visiting a university she got into. I hope she doesn't go for financial reasons but she may change her mind in a flash. Feminine flightiness, as described at the bottom of jld's signature, is D19.

Why is it that character and relationship follow patterns and yet they surprize us nonetheless?

I have friend with two teenaged boys. His common-law wife inherited a large amount money and an art collection some years ago. She lost interest in him and left him. He was pretty much devastated. It aged him 10 years overnight. It is just standard WAW. Still it is/was hard for him to accept.

You should read Bild_a_Loco's thread. It is not too long but has some aspects you may recognize. Both he and neuklas seem to have discovered that the 180 really has an impact, but can one employ it and then rescue one's marriage in the 11th hour?

If you manage to get through to your wife, will you suddenly discover that you are too detached to stay with her? Sort of like pouring beer too fast so that even after you stop the foam is going build and run over the the glass's edge.


----------



## BostonBruins32

LongWalk said:


> If you manage to get through to your wife, will you suddenly discover that you are too detached to stay with her? Sort of like pouring beer too fast so that even after you stop the foam is going build and run over the the glass's edge.


This.. 

This is exactly my thing. Think about the timeline for a second:
_-B3 birth +2 years = I want another child and dream of different home in xyz school district and a life together. she doesnt want B4
-last October = shes pushing me. I'm pulling her. BB needs to change or shes out. One way problem.
-Sometime around February = She's on idle. I 180. I change physically and emotionally. Her physical wall and affection wall seems to be breaking down. Talk of B4, just months after she considered leaving.
-Sometime around March/April = her wall coming down, still not talking though. My wall building up. 180 full fledge, completely resentful and lacking trust.
-Now = the thought of more children with her is a turn off. she has now brought it up a few times and doesnt seem to be hearing me. I do not trust her. My wall is now very high. I've stopped telling her what I think or how I feel, unless completely provoked (really only B4 talk has done this). Even then I make it short, concise, and clear. Then end the conversation. _

This woman that criticizes everything I do. This woman that screams at her parents rudely. This woman that spends 3 hours per night on her ipad. This woman that seeks attention on facebook via Self pictures. This woman that doesnt do anything for me (someone please challenge me here, make me try to think of something). As the fog of last fall fades, I'm having a hard time understanding and sometimes liking the person on the other side of the bed.

blaagghhh.. sorry for the rant.


----------



## treyvion

BostonBruins32 said:


> This..
> 
> This is exactly my thing. Think about the timeline for a second:
> _-B3 birth +2 years = I want another child and dream of different home in xyz school district and a life together. she doesnt want B4
> -last October = shes pushing me. I'm pulling her. BB needs to change or shes out. One way problem.
> -Sometime around February = She's on idle. I 180. I change physically and emotionally. Her physical wall and affection wall seems to be breaking down. Talk of B4, just months after she considered leaving.
> -Sometime around March/April = her wall coming down, still not talking though. My wall building up. 180 full fledge, completely resentful and lacking trust.
> -Now = the thought of more children with her is a turn off. she has now brought it up a few times and doesnt seem to be hearing me. I do not trust her. My wall is now very high. I've stopped telling her what I think or how I feel, unless completely provoked (really only B4 talk has done this). Even then I make it short, concise, and clear. Then end the conversation. _
> 
> This woman that criticizes everything I do. This woman that screams at her parents rudely. This woman that spends 3 hours per night on her ipad. This woman that seeks attention on facebook via Self pictures. This woman that doesnt do anything for me (someone please challenge me here, make me try to think of something). As the fog of last fall fades, I'm having a hard time understanding and sometimes liking the person on the other side of the bed.
> 
> blaagghhh.. sorry for the rant.


How long has this went on?


----------



## LongWalk

You need to divorce her.


----------



## BostonBruins32

treyvion said:


> How long has this went on?


which part of "this"?


----------



## john117

testpilot21 said:


> I (and I think the other person) would want a shower first.



Depending on what shape you are it will take a few showers' worth to get the, ehem, numbness out 

Maybe take a Viagra before riding (the bicycle you pervs ) and see what happens... What sacrifices I have to endure for science..


----------



## jld

If you separate, BB, you will each see what the other is providing that you are taking for granted.

It could motivate your wife to also seek counseling, and really work at the problems.

And it would give you an idea what divorce would be like.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> If you separate, BB, you will each see what the other is providing that you are taking for granted.
> 
> It could motivate your wife to also seek counseling, and really work at the problems.
> 
> And it would give you an idea what divorce would be like.


at the risk of sounding like a complete @sshole. What does she provide for me?

I can't talk to her. I pay the bills. She does not complement me. She does not want to have sex with me. She ignores me in favor of her ipad at night. She doesnt open my car door. She says no to restaurants that i like that she doesnt. She does not say thank you or please. When we are home together (evenings, weekends), I watch B3 90% of the time, as shes sleeping till 11 or playing on her phone. I work full time, her part time, yet I make dinner 6 nights per week. She doesn't console me or have empathy for my struggles (work etc)

Someone please 

I'm curious. what does she do for me?

maybe the better question is what do some of you men or women on here feel that your wife(women what do you do for your husband) does for you?


----------



## john117

It's very simple. She's in her comfort zone, why change?


----------



## BostonBruins32

But my question to other men on here is what does your wife provide you? what examples should I be thinking about?

Women, what do you feel you provide your husband?


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm curious. what does she do for me?


There must be some reason you have not left, BB. That is what she is doing for you. 

She is with B3 when you are not. Your staying with her means only paying for one dwelling. Keeping things as they are means not having to tell people you are living apart and are separated.

She allows you to keep the status quo. Neither of you is forced to confront and change.



> maybe the better question is what do some of you men or women on here feel that your wife(women what do you do for your husband) does for you?


He pays for my life. I can't believe how many people take that for granted. It is not a small thing.

He believes in me. He sees value in me. He loves me.

He gave me children, who give me purpose. 

I could make a list a mile long of what he does for me. I actually should. It would keep me from complaining about the stupid little stuff that doesn't even matter.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> But my question to other men on here is what does your wife provide you? what examples should I be thinking about?
> 
> Women, what do you feel you provide your husband?


BB, why don't you answer these questions for us. What do you want your wife to provide?

Those could be your limits for keeping your marriage. This is the kind of thing I think your counselor would ask you to do, btw.


----------



## Jetranger

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm curious. what does she do for me?


There is a related question in "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" which asks: what about your own life would change if she was gone tomorrow?

That was one of the ones that made me realize... hardly anything.

It sounds you're doing everything for yourself, and for her too. Why are you doing everything for her, what's her problem, why should she get a free ride and contribute nothing?


----------



## BostonBruins32

What would I want:

I would want a wife to enjoy being intimate with me behind closed doors, rather than making me feel silly for asking. I would want my significant other to not huff and or puff if I want to watch something 1 out of the 7 nights on the couch. I would want her to say, hey I know you like Mexican food and I don't but lets go (rather than complain about there being nothing she likes there). I would want appreciation for my efforts, even if failed. I would like it if she took initiative on her day off from work to cook dinner rather than lay on couch waiting for me to do it after my 10 hour day. I would like to see her take out her wallet, now that she has job, to pick up the tab for pizza. I would like her to say thank you after I get up at 5am with B3 on the weekends so she can sleep till noon. I would like for her no not insist we leave my family parties after only being there for 2 hours (her family parties = 5 hours). I would like for her not to welcome flirt with other men online. I would like to hear sorry when she should say it and please when asking for something.

I would like for her to do actually do the things I listed above, rather than agree to the things above when I discuss them, only to follow up with NOTHING above. Case and point, "you havent seen Carl in a while, you should hang out sometime" .. I make plans. Then I ask if thursday evening is a good time to meet up with carl for a drink during the Bruins game and I get a "fine" or "ok" (married men you all know what that fine or ok sounds like..its loaded). I'd like to not have that sometime.


and to testpilot:
i did this exercise one evening about 4 weeks back. It would cost me access to my daughter and it would cost me some level of shame tellign the family and friends. 

It wouldnt cost me intimacy. it wouldnt cost me money. it wouldnt cost me an opportunity for more children ( i dont want more). It wouldnt cost me self esteem (she doesnt help that as is).

again, B3 is literally the main reason I'm seeing this thing through. I wont stay in it for her, but I will give it a chance to make sure it REALLY wont work, before i quit.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Case and point, "you havent seen Carl in a while, you should hang out sometime" .. I make plans. Then I ask if thursday evening is a good time to meet up with carl for a drink during the Bruins game and I get a "fine" or "ok" (married men you all know what that fine or ok sounds like..its loaded). I'd like to not have that sometime.


This case in point says it all. You really have not listened to a word anyone has said. You refuse to change anything then whine about why things don't change.

Here is your task for this week. Call up Carl and arrange to get together Thursday. Tell your wife you will be out and then go do it, regardless of the response that you get.


----------



## john117

Go out with Carl every other night for a month and maybe it will make a difference... Once a week... Yawn.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

BostonBruins32 said:


> What would I want:
> 
> I would want a wife to enjoy being intimate with me behind closed doors, rather than making me feel silly for asking. I would want my significant other to not huff and or puff if I want to watch something 1 out of the 7 nights on the couch. I would want her to say, hey I know you like Mexican food and I don't but lets go (rather than complain about there being nothing she likes there). I would want appreciation for my efforts, even if failed. I would like it if she took initiative on her day off from work to cook dinner rather than lay on couch waiting for me to do it after my 10 hour day. I would like to see her take out her wallet, now that she has job, to pick up the tab for pizza. I would like her to say thank you after I get up at 5am with B3 on the weekends so she can sleep till noon. I would like for her no not insist we leave my family parties after only being there for 2 hours (her family parties = 5 hours). I would like for her not to welcome flirt with other men online. I would like to hear sorry when she should say it and please when asking for something.
> 
> I would like for her to do actually do the things I listed above, rather than agree to the things above when I discuss them, only to follow up with NOTHING above. Case and point, "you havent seen Carl in a while, you should hang out sometime" .. I make plans. Then I ask if thursday evening is a good time to meet up with carl for a drink during the Bruins game and I get a "fine" or "ok" (married men you all know what that fine or ok sounds like..its loaded). I'd like to not have that sometime.
> 
> 
> and to testpilot:
> i did this exercise one evening about 4 weeks back. It would cost me access to my daughter and it would cost me some level of shame tellign the family and friends.
> 
> It wouldnt cost me intimacy. it wouldnt cost me money. it wouldnt cost me an opportunity for more children ( i dont want more). It wouldnt cost me self esteem (she doesnt help that as is).
> 
> again, B3 is literally the main reason I'm seeing this thing through. I wont stay in it for her, but I will give it a chance to make sure it REALLY wont work, before i quit.


Really what does she want of you? Or do you not think of that?
Whiners are not attractive to anyone.

If you get one thing out of this several month thread in which nothing has really changed...

YOU determine how YOU feel and YOU decide what YOU do.
YOU control YOU.

..now go take on the day.


----------



## jld

I don't think you are asking too much, BB. I hope you don't have to get divorced to get it, though.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Tall Average Guy said:


> This case in point says it all. You really have not listened to a word anyone has said. You refuse to change anything then whine about why things don't change.
> 
> Here is your task for this week. Call up Carl and arrange to get together Thursday. Tell your wife you will be out and then go do it, regardless of the response that you get.


Don't need a task. I do go for a drink with said Carl. I also grab a 2 hours a week on an evening to drop a line in the water( nothing biting this year). I continue to do this. If just would love her to welcome it someday. I was asked what id like from her. I don't need her permission, I just wish it came without an attitude or snide remark. It's like sex. I still initiate, regardless if the ****ty acceptance I get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Just keep doing those things, BB. Just keep nurturing yourself.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

BostonBruins32 said:


> Don't need a task. I do go for a drink with said Carl. I also grab a 2 hours a week on an evening to drop a line in the water( nothing biting this year). I continue to do this. If just would love her to welcome it someday. I was asked what id like from her. I don't need her permission, I just wish it came without an attitude or snide remark. It's like sex. I still initiate, regardless if the ****ty acceptance I get.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And yet the "look" still bothers you. Let it go. She uses that look to get to you and you let her. You give her power by acknowledging it. 

So if you are unwilling to do anything different, why don't you just file? Why waste however much time proving that things won't change, when you know they won't because you won't change?


----------



## Tasorundo

T2, it has been a year, how's 'the plan' going?


----------



## LongWalk

BB,

You need inner strength and resolve. They may be there but you won't know until you execute a real 180 to check out and leave your wife. If you play in like neuklas, keeping a sense of humor, you may succeed in saving your marriage.

The person who wants the relationship least holds power in the marriage. 

The person who is willing to lose their marriage to change the status quo is the de facto leader in the marriage.

You must be prepared to resign as a co-dependent.


----------



## naiveonedave

As Tall said, you need to just do and don't think. If I were in your shoes, I would pretty much 180 her 3 days a week and do my thing, wether that is mowing the lawn, fishing, watching sports, taking a nap, whatever. Pretty much show her you aren't going to put up with her behavior. And the flirty internet sh*t has to end, to me that is enough to file.


----------



## john117

Meh. Flirt online yourself. Buy an iPad and match her hour for hour.

Golden rule etc.


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> Meh. Flirt online yourself. Buy an iPad and match her hour for hour.
> 
> Golden rule etc.


Well I guess the golden rule can apply in that manner. Nice.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Meh. Flirt online yourself. Buy an iPad and match her hour for hour.
> 
> Golden rule etc.


BB, have you ever asked her how she would feel if you did the things online that she is? 

Be specific with her, if you decide to do this. I am sure it will make her think.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> BB, have you ever asked her how she would feel if you did the things online that she is?
> 
> 
> 
> Be specific with her, if you decide to do this. I am sure it will make her think.



Heck BB, I'll create a fake female account on FB and chat you up for hours at a time... Let's see what B2's reaction will be


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Heck BB, I'll create a fake female account on FB and chat you up for hours at a time... Let's see what B2's reaction will be


The idea is not to hurt BB's wife; it is to jolt her into seeing how what she is doing is hurting him. 

If she can see that, and she loves him, she will stop.


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Tasorundo said:


> T2, it has been a year, how's 'the plan' going?


The plan ended. Life goes on I will update when things change.

4.7 years into this situation.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

john117 said:


> Meh. Flirt online yourself. Buy an iPad and match her hour for hour.
> 
> Golden rule etc.



Um the golden rule is do unto others as YOU WOULD HAVE THEM do unto you. 

What you're describing is eye for an eye.


----------



## john117

That's also a Golden Rule in many cultures.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Trying2figureitout said:


> The plan ended. Life goes on I will update when things change.
> 
> 4.7 years into this situation.


Wait...4.7 years of practically no sex, assuming that you had a handful of encounters - maybe 5 during this span?

So, if your plan ended and you see no change, then you finally accepted that you will be giving up sex for the rest of your life - assuming that you do not divorce your wife over this (nor does she divorce you).


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> That's also a Golden Rule in many cultures.


True, but aren't we trying to evolve beyond that?

And this is a marriage where there is still some love involved. There is still something to work with.

I don't think it ever hurts men to work on their inner security, and develop leadership skills. It will profit them in every area of their lives, and certainly in their marriages.

Some women seem genuinely drawn to men they can take care of. They enjoy nurturing a man, and building him up. Their attraction to the man is not harmed at all by this. It might be increased by his need for her.

If your wife is one that expects _you_ to take care of _her_, then becoming an emotionally stronger and thus more confident man will help you make sure your needs get met, too -- and willingly.

Obviously, this is all _jmo!_


----------



## john117

I have emotional strength, inner security, and confidence in spades for all the good it has done me vis a vis my marriage.

As you said, in a marriage where there is still some hope  unfortunately, unempathic people understand no other way than this particular Golden Rule...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I have emotional strength, inner security, and confidence in spades for all the good it has done me vis a vis my marriage.
> 
> As you said, in a marriage where there is still some hope  unfortunately, unempathic people understand no other way than this particular Golden Rule...


But your wife has a mental condition, right? Isn't that a different category?

Yes, you are confident in yourself. You are intelligent, and that surely breeds confidence.

John, I just want to ask you, and you do not need to respond, but what about about humility, and vulnerability, in your marriage? 

I know we have no real control over our partners, only influence. But when I am humble, which just means being as honest as I can be about whatever is going on, and I express that vulnerability, my husband usually responds with tenderness. And I hope he would say the same about me.

I understand that you and your wife are from very different cultures, and there may be a mental condition that precludes success, but I do wonder if some vulnerability could melt some of her ice.

Again, just a thought.


----------



## john117

Fair point. She is very vulnerable internally but dropping the facade and asking for help is a no-go as well.

Humility and vulnerability assume the desire and ability to have an open and honest conversation with one's partner. 

About as likely in her culture as serving bourbon and playing jazz in funerals if you get my drift


----------



## jld

What do you think would make her trust you enough, John, to be able to be vulnerable with you?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> What do you think would make her trust you enough, John, to be able to be vulnerable with you?



Nothing. It's not a trust issue. 

She trusts nobody, herself included (her excruciating work hours are not because she produces more work but because she rechecks her work multiple times - the sign of no trust). 

It's an issue of seeing beyond your horizon of work / exercise / TV / sleep. 

If you have lived the last few years in a hamster cage all you really see is the cage, and the world outside the cage frightens you. Forget sex. I'd settle for a dinner out with her friends, wait a sec... She has no friends...

Simple stuff.


----------



## jld

That is really sad. It must be very lonely and painful to be her.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> That is really sad. It must be very lonely and painful to be her.



Well... She's too busy living in the hamster cage to realize the cage is there to begin with...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Well... She's too busy living in the hamster cage to realize the cage is there to begin with...


And that is sad and lonely and painful for you, because you do see the cage.

That must be so hard, to live with someone with mental illness.


----------



## pidge70

jld said:


> And that is sad and lonely and painful for you, because you do see the cage.
> 
> That must be so hard, to live with someone with mental illness.


It's not a mental illness. It's a personality disorder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

jld said:


> And that is sad and lonely and painful for you, because you do see the cage.
> 
> 
> 
> That must be so hard, to live with someone with mental illness.



Not any more. Let her in her cage and that frees up plenty of my time to do my things. 

People have choices, even mentally ill people. I did not put up the cage, I do not maintain it, if she wants that, be my guest. 

Mental illness is not the issue. You saw in another thread how people are consumed with the idea of surviving a nuclear or bio attack  to the point of discounting everything else possible in life. It's their right and I support it, but after I turn to room temperature and my funeral attracts a few hundred people versus a handful, and a newspaper sized "celebrate the life of such and such" speech versus "ding ding the witch is dead", then we can think which of us made the right choice.


----------



## john117

pidge70 said:


> It's not a mental illness. It's a personality disorder.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Close enough for insurance coverage reasons


----------



## LongWalk

John,

You must have answered this question before, so pardon me for asking it:

Why don't you tell your wife that you want an open marriage? She is not interested in the physical or emotional pleasure of sex. But can't you tell her that you have some pesky needs?

Would she care?


----------



## john117

I have, and she was open to the suggestion (and now you know why I aced the GRE Verbal)

I see this as a failure more than anything else. It should not come to that...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I have, and she was open to the suggestion (and now you know why I aced the GRE Verbal)
> 
> *I see this as a failure more than anything else. *It should not come to that...


I agree. That must have made you feel rejected, too.


----------



## john117

Compartmentalization is your friend


----------



## jld

Well, I think you are right not to pursue open marriage. Just sounds so risky.

Did you offer it just to see what she would say? And then were surprised by her answer?


----------



## LongWalk

In other words, you are afraid that you would become emotionally connected to some woman other than your wife and then been become prisoner of a new dilemma.

Why not tell your wife that you have set up dating and would like to practice dating and sex on her first to make certain that you don't mess it up. Tell her that you will do something exciting watch live sports (this is shown to excite desire better than some quiet romantic dinners) and then grab some good fast food and then go home and have sex, totally as an experiment to get you ready for dating.

Maybe you can take her to watch MMA or something.

After Trickster's wife told him to screw other women and stop bothering her, all he had to do was have coffee with a couple and his wife began to request sex and wanted to cancel the open marriage contract. She gave him one year initially.

neuklas has fallen silent. He is the great test case. Reliable reporter. Wife not suffering BPD or CSA.


----------



## jld

Lol, LW. Reminds me of that commercial during the WC the last few days, where the game ends with cheering, the guy and gal look at each other, and then you just see shadows.


----------



## john117

Well, comparing two individuals that are drastically different on a single question is not conducive to consistent results. I wish I was dealing with Mrs. Trickster but...

In addition, I have no time or energy for now to play games. As I have said, concerns other than intimacy will force my game.


----------



## jld

I think your plan to divorce in 3 years is very reasonable. 

I still can't get over how she accepted an open marriage. That just stuns me. It must be something she is used to from men in her culture?


----------



## farsidejunky

Or, just like she knows he will never leave, she is betting he will not pursue anything outside the marriage.

What does your wife actually fear John?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I think your plan to divorce in 3 years is very reasonable.
> 
> I still can't get over how she accepted an open marriage. That just stuns me. It must be something she is used to from men in her culture?



Well, the thing is that she knows I am super creative and can work around any obstacle. So if I put my mind to do something I generally succeed. 

She feels this way largely because she can't comprehend the value of emotional connections. To her it simply is not important. Would she freak out over something not important? Probably not...


----------



## jld

She is just completely materialistic and status-conscious?


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I wish we were neighbors. I know you would be great to hang out with. I'm glad you two had a good run for 25 years - but nobody deserves this. It's good that you are fully capable of amusing yourself, that said life is much richer with an engaged partner. 

It's sad that J2 has retreated fully into her hamster wheel. 




john117 said:


> Well, the thing is that she knows I am super creative and can work around any obstacle. So if I put my mind to do something I generally succeed.
> 
> She feels this way largely because she can't comprehend the value of emotional connections. To her it simply is not important. Would she freak out over something not important? Probably not...


----------



## john117

jld said:


> She is just completely materialistic and status-conscious?



Duh


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> I wish we were neighbors. I know you would be great to hang out with. I'm glad you two had a good run for 25 years - but nobody deserves this. It's good that you are fully capable of amusing yourself, that said life is much richer with an engaged partner.
> 
> 
> 
> It's sad that J2 has retreated fully into her hamster wheel.



Life is richer back in Europe. Maybe I'll go back to my village and go widow-shopping 

Meanwhile...

View attachment 25202


----------



## jld

I hope you find love someday, john. And I am sorry your wife is lost.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I hope you find love someday, john. And I am sorry your wife is lost.



I'm even more sorry Google Maps keeps finding her and bringing her back...


----------



## MEM2020

ROTFL

John - you are very lovable. Stop with the fvcking cycling. Soon enough someone is going to want to fvck your brains out. Buy a damn rowng machine. If you want me to go first I will - but don't mess with your equipment - just because J2 is stupid enough not to use it. 




john117 said:


> Life is richer back in Europe. Maybe I'll go back to my village and go widow-shopping
> 
> Meanwhile...
> 
> View attachment 25202


----------



## john117

Au contraire, there's value in cycling. I'm so bad at it that I absolutely have to focus on bicycling to not wrap expensive aluminum around a tree... 

Thanks to hot/rainy weather and business travel I haven't gone riding for a few days now and already miss it.


----------



## MEM2020

The thing I like about cycling is the sensation of speed. About 10 years back - bought a fairly pricey LED bike light from REI. Had a giant battery - was bright as hell. Zipping along at 20 mph on our local bike trails at night - with that thing illuminating the path - was a rush. 


QUOTE=john117;9267266]Au contraire, there's value in cycling. I'm so bad at it that I absolutely have to focus on bicycling to not wrap expensive aluminum around a tree... 

Thanks to hot/rainy weather and business travel I haven't gone riding for a few days now and already miss it.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

I would not know speed unless I'm driving my car. I use Strava for tracking my routes and it's reporting 10mph on bicycle paths...


----------



## Catherine602

John you're killing me!


----------



## BostonBruins32

Just an update, prompted by JLD in a sex spreadsheet thread.

Cruising along. Summer has been very busy between travel and xyz activities to do every weekend. B2 coming down on me less and showing good level of outside the bedroom affection. A few times she has snapped at me when in a bad mood or for whatever reason, but I immediately put the fire out and tell her its unacceptable, then move on. Have heard more apologies in the past 2 months than in past 10 years.

It almost seems like some of the frustration that B2 has is now landing on B3, as I'm not taking it anymore. Poor B3 seems to get heavier heat when she misbehaves or needs more attention. B2 is still heavily consumed in her own world, house chores or online usage, rather than attending to B3. You can very clearly see B3's frustration with this, hence why she acts out. She's a very good girl, she just needs more time from mom. She's been great with me, but I remain very committed to giving her all my time after work and on weekends. 

Sex issue: Have not been denied in months, but I have also zero interest in initiating in the past month to month and a half. Wife initiated while we were away on vacation a few weeks ago, even with B3 in the same hotel room sleeping. For some reason I don't have this burning desire to initiate with my wife, as I'm very resentful and frankly still working on moving on from the past year of **** .Even lately my wife seems to flirt a lot with me, but it reminds me of the old days where she would make sexual jokes, even in presence of others, but then behind closed doors she was allergic to intimacy.

So the key takeaways:
-wife seems more affectionate to me
-wife still addicted to ipad/phone
-wife seems to be flirting with me more? who knows
-wife snapping at me less
-wife snapping at B3 more
-B3 and I doing even more things together
-No interest in initiating, actually my sex drive seems to be really slow

Things should feel better between B2 and I, but I'm just taking a while to come around. I'm really really pent up with resentment, so I have to harness energy into myself and B3. In an effort to be objective, I think I'm more of the problem lately than her (with regards to letting things go and moving into next phase of our marriage). It's taking me a while.


----------



## Racer

BostonBruins32 said:


> Sex issue: Have not been denied in months, but I have also zero interest in initiating in the past month to month and a half. ..


Funny how that works right? It’s hard to maintain interest much less express desire for someone who can’t reciprocate once you break that “I’m supposed to want this” mind. You want more and she’s unable to provide it even though it really is simple. I’ve tried to get across “letting me” is much, much different than “[email protected]# yea!” so it sort of gets the same ‘lame’ reaction mentally/physically with me. 

The good news is you’ve crossed that threshold that says “any sex is good”: You can get laid, you don’t want to unless it’s the good kind of sex. It’s a healthier outlook. The bad news is she sounds like my wife and is still stuck thinking you should be satisfied with any sex and see it as good. If she’s like mine, she’ll ignore your words and stick to her guns believing “not saying no” *=* ““[email protected]# yea!” when it isn’t even close. 

Sort of ripped mine the other day. We were messing around with sexual flirtation and she brought up that I’m selfish and want selfish things like BJ’s. I told her there are typically 31 days in a month. Once a month we have sex.… She’s got the other 30 days to work with. And on that one day, I still don’t ever get what I want. So who’s really the selfish one here? There’s also a massive difference between asking for and actions to support a perception.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> J
> It almost seems like some of the frustration that B2 has is now landing on B3, as I'm not taking it anymore. Poor B3 seems to get heavier heat when she misbehaves or needs more attention. B2 is still heavily consumed in her own world, house chores or online usage, rather than attending to B3. You can very clearly see B3's frustration with this, hence why she acts out. She's a very good girl, she just needs more time from mom.


 Have you communicated what you see and your concerns? IMO you should be advocating for B3 when you see her mistreated. 

Perhaps you could hire some housekeeping help to free up some of your W's time to invest in your daughter? 

Heads up that with a female child, your wife will trigger @ the time your daughter reaches the age(s) of the CSA trauma. When my daughters started to develop I was the modesty gestapo (until I got into counseling and realized that I was way overboard putting a cage around them)


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> Have you communicated what you see and your concerns? IMO you should be advocating for B3 when you see her mistreated.
> 
> Perhaps you could hire some housekeeping help to free up some of your W's time to invest in your daughter?
> 
> Heads up that with a female child, your wife will trigger @ the time your daughter reaches the age(s) of the CSA trauma. When my daughters started to develop I was the modesty gestapo (until I got into counseling and realized that I was way overboard putting a cage around them)


Could be. She ignores b3 a lot. Usually when I get home and I evenings, she's on couch on her phone or ipad and b3 is milling around. It's just surprising how angry b2 gets when b3 acts like a kid. B2 got real real angry at me last month when I suggested we give b3 more attention after work. Oh well I'll handle b3 myself. She's more fun than a laptop anyhow.

Could be the CSa stuff making b2 feel like this .. (I doubt it)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



BostonBruins32 said:


> Could be. She ignores b3 a lot. Usually when I get home and I evenings, she's on couch on her phone or ipad and b3 is milling around. It's just surprising how angry b2 gets when b3 acts like a kid. B2 got real real angry at me last month when I suggested we give b3 more attention after work. Oh well I'll handle b3 myself. She's more fun than a laptop anyhow.
> 
> Could be the CSa stuff making b2 feel like this .. (I doubt it)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bb: my wife suffered CSA, and she does the same stuff. It is her soothing mechanism to escape into FB or mindless comp games. Basic life overwhelms her and she needs the escape, often to the detriment of B8 and/or me.


----------



## BostonBruins32

farsidejunky said:


> Bb: my wife suffered CSA, and she does the same stuff. It is her soothing mechanism to escape into FB or mindless comp games. Basic life overwhelms her and she needs the escape, often to the detriment of B8 and/or me.


Is that right? I'd be interested in your story and potential similarities. Do you have a thread rolling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Is that right? I'd be interested in your story and potential similarities. Do you have a thread rolling?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is in the private section.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Update.

2 notable things I've seen in past 2 weeks. (yes small sample, but trending people!). 

-Ipad/Phone time = much less. B2 is off her ipad much more in past few weeks.
-B3 = past 2 weeks or little less, there has been a palable difference in B2's time with B3. She's A. yelling at her less and B. giving her more attention from what I see.


I'd also like to point out that you have to be locked and loaded in your 180 and attempt to improve yourself. I keep reading other threads on here complaining about a wife who won't budge. "she wont change. she wont listen etc.. " Mine won't do this either, if I ask her to. So I don't ask her. 

The tough part here is figuring out if her change is real vs buttering me up for a baby. But to be very honest, I'm a different guy from where I was 1 year ago. Mostly good, though sometimes I feel like I lost some of my edge. But then again, that portion of edge may have been more ******* than edge.


----------



## LongWalk

Yelling at kids in real anger is emotional abuse. it will harm you child for life.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

Edge is defined as the degree to which you can effect the changes you want. 

That said, in a marriage you can use a scalpel a chain saw, or anything in between. The scalpel creates no collateral damage.

You have WAY more edge today, than two years ago. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Update.
> 
> 2 notable things I've seen in past 2 weeks. (yes small sample, but trending people!).
> 
> -Ipad/Phone time = much less. B2 is off her ipad much more in past few weeks.
> -B3 = past 2 weeks or little less, there has been a palable difference in B2's time with B3. She's A. yelling at her less and B. giving her more attention from what I see.
> 
> 
> I'd also like to point out that you have to be locked and loaded in your 180 and attempt to improve yourself. I keep reading other threads on here complaining about a wife who won't budge. "she wont change. she wont listen etc.. " Mine won't do this either, if I ask her to. So I don't ask her.
> 
> The tough part here is figuring out if her change is real vs buttering me up for a baby. But to be very honest, I'm a different guy from where I was 1 year ago. Mostly good, though sometimes I feel like I lost some of my edge. But then again, that portion of edge may have been more ******* than edge.


----------



## john117

The time not thinking about how to improve one's relationship can be used to ponder and provide clarity about one's future...


----------



## jld

Someone's conscience is getting to him . . .


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Someone's conscience is getting to him . . .



I better call tech support. My conscience has fallen and it can't get up!!!

Seriously, I used to spend hours thinking about J2 and how to deal with her. Right now it's just a mild toothache. 

After reading about a guy a decade older than me with a quad bypass in December who is now cycling 50 miles a day, my problems seem mundane by comparison. Life is about overcoming things. If this guy did not let a quad bypass ruin his life I'm not going to let J2 ruin mine.


----------



## jld

And someday you may be strong enough to reach out to her in compassion and empathy . . .


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> and hopefully without being rejected.


If a man is persistent, he will often get what he wants, BB. She loved john enough to marry him. I think that love is still there.

BB, I think you are meeting some deep emotional need in your wife by being able to say no to her, without getting emotional about it. I would encourage you to keep working on your inner strength, because I think that is where that ability comes from.

You also seem to be able to be helpful to her, and to show some kindness. That is excellent. Being able to say No, and stick to it, while also being compassionate and considerate, should be a winning formula. Best of luck.


----------



## john117

Ah, that's where we differ jld. It seems to me like emotional Alzheimer's. I know what the real one is, my namesake grandpa and uber jokester succumbed to it. In his last years he started "going" and we saw the real grandpa less and less until he passed on the year I got to college. 

What J2 has is the emotional version of that. Zombification...


----------



## BostonBruins32

I can feel it coming in the air tonight.

Just a semi useless update to my tam friends. 
Anniversary is weeks away, I have no plans . Baby making time was slated for October in her mind all along, I am not on board (I think she thinks I'm kidding). Combine that's two things and I think the sonic boom is coming. 

Status, she thinks and has said she loves how things are going. We aren't fighting . She's been tough on b3 but I've really developed this incredible bond with b3. She's getting 100% of dad and in turn it's helping divert my focus away from how I feel about the marriage. I'm a little tapped out. I havent initiated in about 2+ months. I secretly hope she has plans for the gym or with friends everyday. I just want to do my own thing. She's been showing more affection but it's hard to reciprocate. She's off her ipad more around me, but still is in her own world when b3 is vying for attention. She's "sick " a lot. Every day she works ( part time) she complains to no end and is kinda moody. Parenting and work give her a headache. I just nod and acknowledge. Poor thing had to deal with b3 waking her up at 7am because I ran a road race (1st place baby! New personal best). But alas , life is too hard!

Anyways I've been lurking on here, just more quiet and more content.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Strange that she assumes everything is ok beneath the surface.

Good job with the running.


----------



## BostonBruins32

LongWalk said:


> Strange that she assumes everything is ok beneath the surface.
> 
> Good job with the running.


I think shes satisfied on some level. Low frequency of sex, and I'm not pestering her for it. Things are still being done at home, basic needs met. She sees a better interaction with myself and B3. Whats not to like? The only thing I do notice is a change in her behavior with B3. More short tempered. A few more loud yells. More time sending B3 to fend for herself while mom does her own thing or plays on ipad.


----------



## john117

It will get worse with the kid. Wait till middle school where bad grades, behavior, etc are all your fault


----------



## SurpriseMyself

askari said:


> I think you have two types of LD;
> 1) LD but when hot is hot
> 2) LD with no interest atall other than duty sex as least often as she thinks she can get away with


Thanks for making that distinction. I'm # 1 when the relationship is good. I've done quite a bit in my day, but when the issues mounted and the emotional attachment was severed, I became LD #2.

Would also like to point out two things. If your spouse is LD, they will likely never become HD or even mid-range. But I dare say that it's what makes he spouse want to/not want to is what matters when dealing with an LD spouse. 

For example: you can always give her an O, but she feels like making love with you is mechanical/devoid of intimacy. You may think, hey... I always give her an orgasm and get mine second." She's thinking, "this feels wrong. I want to feel something when we make love, not just get each other off."

Just one example. Let's just hope your LD spouse will tell you. Maybe they've never thought about why, but they need to.

The other thing to point out is if your spouse is refusing sex to gain the upper hand/manipulate you, they aren't mature nor worth having. Manipulation by withholding is juvenile, whether it's sex, communication, attention, time together, anything. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## techmom

ebp123 said:


> For example: you can always give her an O, but she feels like making love with you is mechanical/devoid of intimacy. You may think, hey... I always give her an orgasm and get mine second." She's thinking, "this feels wrong. I want to feel something when we make love, not just get each other off."
> 
> Just one example. Let's just hope your LD spouse will tell you. Maybe they've never thought about why, but they need to.
> 
> The other thing to point out is if your spouse is refusing sex to gain the upper hand/manipulate you, they aren't mature nor worth having. Manipulation by withholding is juvenile, whether it's sex, communication, attention, time together, anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep! sometimes the HD thinks that just because you got the O that you feel automatically closer to them. Problem solved, they got their connection. This is why make up sex is so powerful for HD people. Not so much for an LD like me.

When there are problems in the relationship, I don't feel the connection I need in order to want to have sex. My hubby feels that the sex will bring the connection. Sex makes me to vulnerable to have it when I am mad or just disconnected, this makes him feel like I don't want to solve the problem. My thing is to solve the problem then when I want to connect sexually I will.


----------



## john117

Except that this could turn into a negative feedback loop.

I tended to be far less bothered of my wife's antics when our intimate life was, ehem, non dead . I was more understanding, more patient, and far less cynical.

Now that we have progressed to roommate status every thing that bothers me comes out. There's no leeway, no margin of error, no padding. 

Not by my choice.


----------



## LongWalk

All the last three posts ring true but they all come from a different perspective.

For men there sex can definitely embody an aggressive element. By making a woman feel pleasure, regardless of the state of affection, a man dominates or possesses her. This is a power trip because once a woman has orgasms she usually doesn't start nagging about all the issues in their marriage, although she may want pillow talk.

The equivalent for women would be seduction. But since a woman married to an HD man doesn't need to seduce she is deprived (robbed?) of the power.

My maternal grandparents had 13 children, including 3 sets of twins. The last two twins were stillborn from the complications of childbirth. My grandmother's womb was worn out.

According to one of my cousins, who may have gotten from his mother or another of my older aunts, my grandfather still chased my grandmother around the (small) house in pursuit of sex. She froze him out in the end, refusing to eat meals with him.

Birth control and divorce weren't common yet in those days. HD/LD mismatches existed.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Excellent advice. Interesting perspective. Would have loced this perspective or honesty from wife instead of "the guessing game" <--counselor words. 

Unfortunately I'm a little checked out right now. Done with the guessing game.so I don't really care about her perception of sex because I'm not seeking it with her. 

John your point avout being more forgiving or accepting of complaints or other negatively critical behavior is good. I've never been good at accepting that stuff. I think when my sexual needs were met, I felt that she loved me on some level. Felt like she was attentive to what I want or need. Right now she literally does nothing for me. Literally nothing tgat shows me she loves or is thinking of me. . So compound that with no sex, and what the hell am I doing here? I'm literally a paycheck and a baby sitter to lean on so she can sleep till noon on weekends or go do stuff all day with her mom or friends. Like john, I wouldn't feel so used if I at least felt she was sorta acknowledging my needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

I mean, here's an example....

Today we both scheduled the day off from work. I had to take the Mini for an oil change no big deal.

At 230 am wife wakes up with awful back pain. 100% her fault as she does not use proper posture seating for work, does not adjust the bike correctly...

I spend the next two hours massaging her back. One of the things I learned how to do that puts the physiology courses to good use 

At 430 am crisis averted and she's back to sleep. I woke up 3 hours later to take the car for service, she slept in.

I don't think sex or even appreciation ever crossed her mind. At least I appreciate her contributions to our tuition bills


----------



## BostonBruins32

I live the dream every weekend. I wake up at 5am for work all week. B2 gets up with B3 3 mornings per week, other 2 workdays her mom is at the house before sun rises. Then on weekend I wake up with B3 at 6am and play/walk/go for breakfast/run errands etc. until about 11 or noon so that my wife can have a quiet household to sleep in to.

I have not heard 'thanks' once in 4 years. When this has come up in the company of other young parents, they're jaws drop in jealousy of this act of kindness. Upon returning home at noonish, I either hear "gosh i'm so tired" or (more likely) "I cant believe you took her out like that" <--her nike track suit or a sweat shirt and jeans to run errands or go to playground with. Oh the humanity!

Many of you would say I should man up and stop allowing wife to sleep in and just let her take care of B3 one of these mornings. Hell hath no fury like my wife waking up pre 8am on a weekend. B3 and I will get a heavy dose of attitude for the rest of the day. For the sake of household sanity and minimizing scolding to B3 for wanting orange juice at 630 am, I have just opted to get up and keep things calm until noon.

I would have loved for my wife to say thank you or for her to once say "hey I'm going to take B3 out with me for some errands, go get your fishing pole and catch some dinner".


----------



## LongWalk

You and John have lonely lives.


----------



## john117

If it wasn't for the internet probably true in my case. But thanks to the magic of networking I'm always doing things.

I just realized I have not eaten anything since 7 am, slept for 3 hours last night, and survived a 25 mile bike ride with my wife. Then some evening shopping and a movie on Netflix where she'll fall asleep after 10 min.

It's not really a lonely life, more a "dude where's the stop cord I needs to get off this here bus" life...


----------



## BostonBruins32

My home life is very lonely after b3 hits the sheets. Thank god for friends , hobbits , and work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## In Absentia

Just another perspective and a different reason... I know why my wife is off sex: she has OCD and takes ADs for it and her sex drive is non-existant. Once, she tried to get off the ADs and she was a tiger in bed! Unfortunately, it didn't last and she went back on them.

What is depressing is that she refuses to go to therapy to fix herself. Her OCD can be cured with therapy. So she has decided to ruin our marriage instead. Needless to say that I've lost all my respect for her. Stopped initiating, couldn't care less now. It's very sad, but there's nothing I can about it... we have sex once a month... at the moment, I'm sleeping in my office because our son is back from uni and he is very noisy at night. His bedroom is next to ours... so, for the summer, I get to sleep on my own... which is great!


----------



## LongWalk

Sounds like John and BB are fingering the rip cord.


----------



## BostonBruins32

LongWalk said:


> Sounds like John and BB are fingering the rip cord.


insert low hanging fingering joke here.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> My home life is very lonely after b3 hits the sheets. Thank god for friends , *hobbits* , and work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



"Hobbits" hmmmmm? Do tell . . . .


----------



## john117

If there was ever a night to have sex it would be tonight. Back to back 25 mile bike rides yesterday and today, and I feel like a corpse. She seems to have coped better. 

There's an interesting analogy with responsive desire here. Yesterday I did the 25 miles and felt like crap - having slept 3 hours the night before. Today I could not wait to get back on the bicycle. Wifey is the same way. 

Classic responsive desire pattern. Who wants to get up at 7 am on a Saturday to ride 25 miles especially if they just did 25 more 12 hours ago? She is like that too. But alas, it only works on bicycles.

If the weather holds we will do it Sunday and Monday also. As for sex, well, don't get your hopes too high


----------



## WorkingOnMe

john117 said:


> If there was ever a night to have sex it would be tonight. Back to back 25 mile bike rides yesterday and today, and I feel like a corpse. She seems to have coped better.
> 
> There's an interesting analogy with responsive desire here. Yesterday I did the 25 miles and felt like crap - having slept 3 hours the night before. Today I could not wait to get back on the bicycle. Wifey is the same way.
> 
> Classic responsive desire pattern. Who wants to get up at 7 am on a Saturday to ride 25 miles especially if they just did 25 more 12 hours ago? She is like that too. But alas, it only works on bicycles.
> 
> If the weather holds we will do it Sunday and Monday also. As for sex, well, don't get your hopes too high


Come out and ride the Seattle to Portland with me next July. We'll ride 120 day one, drink a few beers, have some BBQ and ride 84 for day 2.


----------



## john117

I'm a long way from century rides or ride your age rides. But I love the area and if the weather holds... Maybe in a few years.

Here in the Midwest we have the Tour De Donut.

http://thetourdedonut.com/


----------



## BostonBruins32

GettingIt said:


> "Hobbits" hmmmmm? Do tell . . . .


haha typo. but if there was a hobbit creature willing to fornicate with me, I'd be open to it. something is better than nothing.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> Hell hath no fury like my wife waking up pre 8am on a weekend. B3 and I will get a heavy dose of attitude for the rest of the day. For the sake of household sanity and minimizing scolding to B3 for wanting orange juice at 630 am, I have just opted to get up and keep things calm until noon.


Makes me wonder what weekends will be like for your daughter once you divorce?

As I noted earlier, you don't love your wife. Not sure why you are hanging around :scratchhead:

I do hope you are still in IC as I think you should be initiating sex regularly if you are going to stay with her. MMSL sure advocates for lots of initiating (I'm not a fan of all their theories but your approach sure seems uber passive and self victimizing)


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> haha typo. but if there was a hobbit creature willing to fornicate with me, I'd be open to it. something is better than nothing.


Kay (MMSL) says to stop the porn. I think you should try it and take that energy and initiate like crazy (making sure YOU use BC since you don't want any more kids)

...or not, and find a lawyer because the status quo sux


----------



## treyvion

askari said:


> My wife of 17 years has always been LD. Looking back now, sex was never important to her.
> I think the reason we married was because we were both late 20's and wanted someone and we each ticked most of the boxes.
> 
> She hated tongue kissing, refused to give BJ's - all very vanilla. At the time it didnt really bother me.
> 
> Over the years her attitude towards sex; 'why should I do something I don't feel like doing or don't like?', her refusal to try new things, her rejecting me so often...we went to MC but she stopped going when sex came up, her refusal to even try to understand the importance of sex in a marraieg and to men...
> 
> All these things over the years have driven me to a dark place of resentment towards her. I am not interested in sex with her any more....she has basically managed to kill any sex drive I ever had.


Brother, I want to give you hope.. A relationship will define your image with respect to your interaction to the other person. A new person will be able to let you restore your sex drive and any other parts of your personality which may have become repressed as a result.



askari said:


> There are women who are LD, but when they are up for it are very HD!
> Had my wife only been up for it 2x a month but my goodness when she was up for it it was hot, bonding etc then it would have been fine.


Some LD's are only LD with you. Their thought is why they have to do it? However with another guy they may be HD.



askari said:


> I think you have two types of LD;
> 1) LD but when hot is hot
> 2) LD with no interest atall other than duty sex as least often as she thinks she can get away with


There is other types of LD. There are LD's who are compassionate and loving relationship partners. They don't have a strong need for sex, don't have a strong drive, but they do want to please their mates and will have fulfilling and satisfying sex with their mate. For these types, it's not about them, but they receive pleasure from the giving of it.

Of course TAM is full of the other types which are the selfish LD's. 

Oh there is another LD. The cheating LD. An LD can be an LD with you because the need is met elsewhere. They will not see you in a sexual light anymore and also since you are playing poker with someone you don't know who is there you get all types of personality features turned down for you by your spouse, because she compares you to the other person but elevates them over you.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> Makes me wonder what weekends will be like for your daughter once you divorce?
> 
> As I noted earlier, you don't love your wife. Not sure why you are hanging around :scratchhead:
> 
> I do hope you are still in IC as I think you should be initiating sex regularly if you are going to stay with her. MMSL sure advocates for lots of initiating (I'm not a fan of all their theories but your approach sure seems uber passive and self victimizing)


I feel bad for my daughter. Poor thing didnt ask to come into this situation.

Not sure what the weekends question means?

Yes I've been in IC. Its been interesting, just a lot of exploration and sometimes venting. 

See Blonde, you have to understand a few things. My wife is on her phone or ipad 80% of the time we're together (last night told B3 she was too busy to color with her, after not seeing her all day. My wife was on pinterest looking at picture frames).. She doesnt go for walks with us. She doesnt want to go for a hike with me. She doesn't want to go to a ball game with me. She wants to shop or be on her Ipad. Thats literally it. B3 doesnt want to shop or watch mom hold an ipad. Its truly insane the dynamic that has shifted. B2 is very happy around me. She has said a few times recently how great the relationship feels. I literally have no clue why she thinks this. What I do know is that the anger or attitude is now shifting to B3. B3 is feeling B2's angry wrath for everything, including asking for milk and forgetting where she left her shoes (b3 is 4 yrs old)

I cant connect with that, and save for casual conversation at night, I've stopped trying to. 

I have no desire to initiate with her. And blonde, you'll be happy to know that I don't even have interest in porn lately. All my days are consumed by work, exercise, parenting, fishing, and projects around the house. I end everyday completely fatigued. My body is tired (running 25miles per week and nightly post dinner walks to playground with B3) and my brain is drained by 10pm (helping B3 tackle life's tasks and my normal 9-5job and I've volunteered to help B3's preschool). I'm 100% gassed after I put B3 to bed. Which is great. I no longer lay in bed hoping for sex or wondering if I'll be rejected or anything like this. I just feel tired and and very fullfilled.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

BostonBruins32 said:


> Not sure what the weekends question means?


What she means is (correct me if I'm wrong B) that if you divorce and your daughter is alone with your wife on the weekend and wakes her up, things could get very ugly between your wife and daughter without you there to protect her. Your wife is abusive and your daughter enjoys a certain amount of protection that you offer by "niceing" your wife on weekend mornings.


----------



## GI Joe

MEM11363 said:


> Trey,
> Glad you asked, as I believe that is really, really important in many sexually impaired marriages.
> 
> I want to start with some context, Mrs. MEM is a dopamine junkie. BTW, dopamine significantly dilates your pupils. And hers definitely dilate in the situations below.
> So here goes our dopamine regimen:
> 1. Conflict
> A. Physical conflict
> - Sparring/wrestling
> - Racquet sports (racquetball and tennis)
> B. Mental conflict
> - High speed board games/word games (not slow speed, deep strategy games)
> - Verbal sparring/high speed banter - rhyming humor/insults
> 2. Novelty
> - Learning something new together
> - Me surprising her with something fun and/or scary
> 
> -----------
> From wiki - biological basis of love
> 
> Studies in neuroscience have involved chemicals that are present in the brain and might be involved when people experience love. These chemicals include: nerve growth factor,[8] testosterone, estrogen, dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, oxytocin, and vasopressin.[9] Adequate brain levels of testosterone seem important for both human male and female sexual behavior.[10] Dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin are more commonly found during the attraction phase of a relationship.[11] Oxytocin and vasopressin seemed to be more closely linked to long term bonding and relationships characterized by strong attachments.
> The conventional view in biology is that there are two major drives in love — sexual attraction and attachment.[12] Attachment between adults is presumed to work on the same principles that lead an infant to become attached to his or her mother or father– or both.
> The chemicals triggered that are responsible for passionate love and long-term attachment love seem to be more particular to the activities in which both persons participate rather than to the nature of the specific people involved.[12]



Throw in a little low dose methamphetamine and you'll get that dopamine pumping.


----------



## MEM2020

Ah yes - a bit of light drug humor from our friendly neighborhood action figure: GI Joe. 


Thing is: Amphetamines don't stimulate desire.

The right blend of aggression, skill and humor - does the trick quite nicely. 

Equally important, that mix, makes a man feel sexy in a manly manner. 






GI Joe said:


> Throw in a little low dose methamphetamine and you'll get that dopamine pumping.


----------



## Buddy400

Boston,

I read the first 40 or so pages of your thread ( I felt like a voyeur, but since you posted the story, I've gotta figure that's not a problem for you). I was enthralled. Would you take Mem's advice and turn the tables on your wife? Would everything work out? Would the good guy (you) win? Would the bad guy (your wife) lose? Finally, I couldn't take it anymore. I flipped to the last page.

Alas, you were still married and things didn't appear to have gotten any better. I was pissed. Why hadn't to given the ultimatum and then left? I registered on TAM mostly just to yell at you. But, I read more posts and it became obvious that you were in a pickle. It looks like you had given the ultimatum (or something resembling one). Your wife had played along for a while to mollify you. The biggest problem was your daughter. Your wife is not a good mother and you can't leave your daughter in that situation. I understand. We have responsibilities to our children and those come first. Although it seems improbable, have you explored the possibility of actually getting custody of your daughter? 

I like that you aren't having sex with her anymore. I like that you're being a good father. I like that you're taking care of yourself. But living in this environment is going to be tough. I hate the the fact that B2 thinks that things are going swimmingly (which, for her, they pretty much are). 

I'd recommend sitting her down and saying the following: "This is the only time I'll have this discussion with you. When we're done talking, I'll return to behaving as I have for the last several months. I am very unhappy with our marriage. there is no way I intend on staying married to you. As soon as I believe I could get sole custody of our daughter or when she has reached the age where she can decide which parent she wants to live with, I'm gone. Until then, I will not have another child with you. I will not have sex with you. The financial plan will be as follows....."

If you earn most of the money, take control of it. I don't believe she's been financially irresponsible in the past, but you've got to be careful. You need to be in as good of a situation as you can when you leave. I know that it's difficult to hide money during a divorce. But, even savings that you have to split with her are better than no savings at all. A great idea is setting up a college plan for your daughter and make contributions as large as possible (having her education paid for in advance will go a long way towards easing your financial situation once you're divorced). If your wife wants to know where the money is going, respond with "hookers" (imagine the divorce deposition where her lawyers mention all the money you've spent on hookers and you respond with "of course I didn't do that, I put it into a college fund for B3. I just wanted to make sure that B2 didn't raid the fund").

On the off chance that B2 responds with "what can I do to make you stay?" tell her exactly what's required. But, only have sex if she initiates and only with a condom (blowjobs are acceptable) and tell her it'll be a least a year before you'll believe her. There is only a very small chance of this happening, so don't plan on it. Never bring up the topic again. However, she is allowed to ask if you still plan on following through with it.

When this thread gets to 500 pages, it better end well or I'll be disappointed


----------



## Openminded

I don't know now she can justify wanting to have another child when she doesn't interact with the one she has now -- except that there are women who love babies but don't have a lot of time for children. Be careful.


----------



## john117

Plenty of SAHM's in my neighborhood employ nannies or au pairs or... Go figure.


----------



## arman

askari said:


> All these things over the years have driven me to a dark place of resentment towards her. I am not interested in sex with her any more....she has basically managed to kill any sex drive I ever had.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> The same has been pretty much true in my 15 years of marriage. It seems as though being LD can be contagious within a marriage.
> 
> My wife pretty much lost all interest after our daughter was born 8 years ago. Since then we may have done it on average 3 or 4 times a year. Even then she acts like its a chore. As time passed pretty much most of the sex drive I had also diminished.
> 
> I was eventually diagnosed with low t through blood tests earlier this year and my dr. put me on a once monthly shot. That has increased my desire considerably but my wife hasn't changed any. I figure what's the point in me taking the shot if she still has no desire?
> 
> Even though low t may be fairly common with guys in their late 40s but in a case like mine I think the premise , "you either use it or you lose it" may have applied.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Buddy, I read your post while driving into work this AM. "signed up just to yell at you".. got a chuckle out of that.

I definately want to punch myself in the head sometimes. 

I know this isnt the right thing, but really it is B3 that makes me hold on and fight the fight. She is awesome and I want her to have the best shot at a good life as possible. 

Spent the whole weekend alone with her while wife was at bachelorette party (overnighter and she was sort of the planner for it..its her best friend). Great weekend. Great behavior. Loved it.

Wife came home sunday evening "exhausted". Got frustrated quick and was in the zone doing random things around the house rather than giving B3 some attention. Kinda sad. B3 just wanted cuddle time. 

So Buddy, I stay because I dont know what to do right now. I realize I'm being an idiot by not making my move, but frankly I worry for B3 and I worry about my relationship with B3. I'm dragging my feet. And a small part of me wishes B2 would see the light, rather than get really defensive if we discuss anything relationship wise.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Plenty of SAHM's in my neighborhood employ nannies or au pairs or... Go figure.


funny. one of my wife's best friends has 2 kids in preschool for about 75% of the week and she does not work. Yet she still has groceries delievered, does all her shopping online, pays for yard work, and has a sitter come over when shes home very frequently.

PS, this is what I call the poison friend. This is the friend who broadcasts her husband's salary (the only one of our friends with a higher salary than me). This is the friend my wife leaned on the most when she "needed space". This is the friend who likes to go out and booze and mingle with everyone (93.5% sure she's crossed the line before with other men, as her husband is ultimate nice guy). This is the friend who, like my wife, thinks working/parenting/cooking/breathing is too stressful. The only thing she does different is she takes anxiety meds, my wife does not.


----------



## 1812overture

Openminded said:


> I don't know now she can justify wanting to have another child when she doesn't interact with the one she has now -- except that there are women who love babies but don't have a lot of time for children. Be careful.


It sure does seem strange. 

Not to contradict you (and I really like the stuff you write), because there are women like that, and men like that. The old joke abut Dad's "call me when it's time for Little League" can be correct.

But, sometimes, it is correct because different adults have certain strengths and weaknesses, and the age and maturity of a child may play to those strengths and weaknesses. I loved time with my post-toddler children, but it was always a bit of a struggle (as I'm sure any observer cold have told you). They, of course, aren't on a time schedule -- even if the rest of life is. I can remember times where I had the kids either together or separately, and I specifically set aside several hours for whatever thing we were doing. Nap time or lunch time would come up before that, so I knew I wouldn't feel time pressure. If I couldn't do it that way, it often wasn't much fun (probably for the kids, as well). As they get older and understand schedules, it's worked better for me. 

None of which excuses what looks to be Boston's wife's disinterest in their daughter.


----------



## BostonBruins32

1812 ..

its hard to say shes not interested in our daughter. My impression, and its maybe only my impression, is that she likes the cute moments and she likes the mom tag (whether its at the park or on facebook). "I have a daughter, here she is!".. its the at home stuff where I kinda lose her help. I put our daughter to bed EVERY night. I read, I brush teeth, I watch pre bed time show, I get up with her if I'm home, I go for walks with her, I keep my laptop and phone off with her, I play puzzles, games, dolls, playground scenarios..everything on a daily basis. 

B2 is interested in her child sometimes, just not really the day to day tactical stuff. On days where B2 is home, she meets up with her friend who has kids or goes to her mom's. In either scenario, she doesnt have to give B3 her focused attention (grandmother plays with B3 or friend's kids play with B3). I'm not a mind reader, but at the very least i recognize that after a work day and not seeing B3 all day, she wants my attention when I get home. So I give her a healthy dose of it. 

My wife and her damn Ipad. She was doing better, but man shes glued to it. Looking up houses, pinterest, facebook, dog adoption, dresses, home improvement stuff..constantly. Its at the point now where I don't even want to be home at night. After I put B3 to bed (B2 typically on ipad from 7pm - ?), I may try to have small talk, but wife is typically consumed by the Ikea website or similar. Ill usually end up going for a night jog and when I get home if shes still busy with the ipad I go out for a coffee. By the time I am done with these things, I'm 400calories lighter and very tired.


----------



## john117

Is she conducive to jogging or cycling together? With a trailer carrier or other gadget for B3.


----------



## Buddy400

I'm happy you got a chuckle out of that. That's the way it was intended.

Hopefully you read far enough to know that I realize that you're sticking around for your daughter. That's the right thing to do.

I just don't want your wife feeling satisfied


----------



## MEM2020

When you have the real conversation abut B4, I'm pretty confident that one of B2's tactics will be to greatly and openly ramp up her contact with other men. Girls nights out - of the drinking and being out late variety, etc. 

Because at this point, there's nothing she can actually do to convince you that anything will produce a lasting change in her behavior. 

Have you ever rated her against the NPD scale? 


QUOTE=BostonBruins32;10294906]Buddy, I read your post while driving into work this AM. "signed up just to yell at you".. got a chuckle out of that.

I definately want to punch myself in the head sometimes. 

I know this isnt the right thing, but really it is B3 that makes me hold on and fight the fight. She is awesome and I want her to have the best shot at a good life as possible. 

Spent the whole weekend alone with her while wife was at bachelorette party (overnighter and she was sort of the planner for it..its her best friend). Great weekend. Great behavior. Loved it.

Wife came home sunday evening "exhausted". Got frustrated quick and was in the zone doing random things around the house rather than giving B3 some attention. Kinda sad. B3 just wanted cuddle time. 

So Buddy, I stay because I dont know what to do right now. I realize I'm being an idiot by not making my move, but frankly I worry for B3 and I worry about my relationship with B3. I'm dragging my feet. And a small part of me wishes B2 would see the light, rather than get really defensive if we discuss anything relationship wise.[/QUOTE]


----------



## In Absentia

BostonBruins32 said:


> 1812 ..
> 
> its hard to say shes not interested in our daughter. My impression, and its maybe only my impression, is that she likes the cute moments and she likes the mom tag (whether its at the park or on facebook). "I have a daughter, here she is!".. its the at home stuff where I kinda lose her help. I put our daughter to bed EVERY night. I read, I brush teeth, I watch pre bed time show, I get up with her if I'm home, I go for walks with her, I keep my laptop and phone off with her, I play puzzles, games, dolls, playground scenarios..everything on a daily basis.
> 
> B2 is interested in her child sometimes, just not really the day to day tactical stuff. On days where B2 is home, she meets up with her friend who has kids or goes to her mom's. In either scenario, she doesnt have to give B3 her focused attention (grandmother plays with B3 or friend's kids play with B3). I'm not a mind reader, but at the very least i recognize that after a work day and not seeing B3 all day, she wants my attention when I get home. So I give her a healthy dose of it.
> 
> My wife and her damn Ipad. She was doing better, but man shes glued to it. Looking up houses, pinterest, facebook, dog adoption, dresses, home improvement stuff..constantly. Its at the point now where I don't even want to be home at night. After I put B3 to bed (B2 typically on ipad from 7pm - ?), I may try to have small talk, but wife is typically consumed by the Ikea website or similar. Ill usually end up going for a night jog and when I get home if shes still busy with the ipad I go out for a coffee. By the time I am done with these things, I'm 400calories lighter and very tired.



I know you mean well, but you are an enabler... over the years, your wife has got used to you doing everything with your daughter. Why should she bother? She is only there for the "cute" moments and also, I guess, not to feel too guilty about it. But it's too late now... I'm sure you don't want to stop doing things for your daughter, hurting her...


----------



## BostonBruins32

I have enabled her. At this point the best I'm capable of doing is letting her reject b3 when she wants attention. When b3 comes to me for a hug or conversation or a puzzle helper , I don't deny her. That's the best I cab so right now. 

B2 probed the b4 discussion last night while on way to grocery store with b3. She wasn't baiting b3 to ask got a sibling or anything. It was interesting because b2 very obviously just assumes I'm all in for b4 making next month. 

I calmly said I'm not on board and we could discuss later. She left it alone. Never can't up again later. She was normal/cuddly later, so she couldn't have been too upset. 

She very much thinks I'm bluffing. I think some real pain is coming.

I'd also like to point out that giving less of a crap and channeling my energy away from the sexless ness/marriage worries, has resulted in a notable blood pressure drop. Have had high Bp for about 7 years, despite being in great shape, not smoking, etc.. Finding your zen > lisinopril.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Is she conducive to jogging or cycling together? With a trailer carrier or other gadget for B3.


She doesnt really like to run or cycle. She's not really into physical activities like this. 

She whispered a few months ago about doing a couch to 5k thing, so for a month, I pushed B3 in the jogger and we ran together. faded though. 

She likes taking B3 to the beach or some scenic things, but once there she is in her own world or on her iphone. Kinda too bad, but luckily for B3 I am full of energy. I actually went paintballing a few times with friends and I invited her to try it. I thought it could be a good combat thing, but she wasnt interested (although those things sting when you take them off the neck)


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> Have had high Bp for about 7 years, despite being in great shape, not smoking, etc.. Finding your zen > lisinopril.


HA! I take BP meds. Who woulda thought that sexlessness decreases BP??? For any health complaint I have ever voiced, H says "I read that *sex cures that*!"

My H was quite zoned out on parenting for a long time. He does like watching and cheering them play varsity sports. 

Where is JLD with some advocacy for transparency? If I was you, I'd be making a big stink about the IPAD use... (which doesn't necessarily bring the necessary change. I make big stink about H drunk driving and he probably still does it when I'm not looking with teenage children aware, watching, and apt to follow his role model unfortunately...)


----------



## john117

I take HBP medicine and Propecia :rotfl: 

sexual effects galore!


----------



## farsidejunky

JLD is taking a break from posting on TAM. I don't know that she will be back.


----------



## Anon1111

I very much sympathize with your situation. Your concern for your daughter is admirable. I also generally think it is great how you try to focus on improving yourself and ignoring your wife as much as possible. However, based on your description of your wife, I think you are doing your family a disservice by ignoring her to the DEGREE that you are.

You need to stand up to your wife. Have a relative take your daughter for a weekend morning out of the house. Tell your wife that you need her to get up and meet with you at a reasonable time on that morning (i.e., no sleeping until noon). Explain to her that you are letting her know in advance that there will be no more walking on eggshells around her on weekend mornings or otherwise. Tell her that you and your daughter should not have to leave your own home every weekend morning so that she can sleep late. If she is unable to handle your being in the house then she can find someplace else to sleep. 

You also need to call her out on how she is treating your daughter generally. Say that you are telling her one on one now out of courtesy, but that going forward you will confront her on the spot when she is acting in a hostile manner. Then act on what you say going forward. Do not hide from her. Your daughter needs to see that you are willing to fight for her. Right now you are on the verge of being one of those parents who stands by while another parent abuses the child. I'm sure you know that when children grow up, they hold the parent who stands by equally as responsible for their suffering.

Hope this isn't too harsh because again, I really do sympathize with your situation as you've described it and you seem like you really do care for your family and are making major personal sacrifices in an effort to hold everything together. Good luck.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> I take HBP medicine and Propecia :rotfl:
> 
> sexual effects galore!


My H is so paranoid about losing any ability that he doesn't like eucalyptus (which I use for sore muscles) because he read that monks used it to dampen libido.

If you needed the libido, John, there are options among BP meds. Which High Blood Pressure Drug Does Not Cause ED? - Prostate.net


----------



## john117

Meh. Between the pills and cycling I'm amazed I still get to check the Male box for gender


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon, I appreciate the honesty. I know this stuff. and the way you've outlined it, the juice is worth the squeeze (juice = daughter, squeeze = angry wife). I wish I could be a fly on the wall to see how the interactions go when I'm not home. Like am I way off base, or does she parent how I'd imagine she parents.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Happy anniversary ! Been one year since the "need space " bomb went off. 

Has it gotten better? 

I don't know. My head is screwed on better. I do not feel in love with her , at all. That narcissist thing. I have 95% given up on hoping that will change. She's in what appears to be a fantasy bubble where perception on facebook is all that matters. 

I'm definately living a lie. But b3 is doing much better and doesn't know her dad feels cold inside . B3 is why I'm here still.

So anyone who may have silently read my story, interested in how these things play out, it's not over yet a year later.

I recently read seven habits of highly effective people. Great stuff. If you live with my wife, you have to develop some really tough skin and a killer sense of self. Super hard stuff. 

Anyways I thought an update was due.


----------



## Openminded

Thanks for the update. 

Is she still pushing for another child?


----------



## BostonBruins32

No mention of another child in a long while. 

Her mom keeps pushing for it. Meanwhile I have an economy pack of condoms. Unfortunately I have minimal sex drive . I kinda miss it but sleep much better no longer waiting for something that previously wouldn't happen.


----------



## LongWalk

She doesn't initiate?


----------



## BostonBruins32

She initiates sometimes. Again it's my bad, as I've lost a lot of interest. As I mentioned, I've grown as a person and changed a lot of things. She hasn't grown an ounce. We don't fight or anything , and she seems happy. So that's good. 

I'm happy . Just not happy with her. More like independently happy. And b3.. She's awesome.


----------



## Trickster

BostonBruins32 said:


> She initiates sometimes. Again it's my bad, as I've lost a lot of interest. As I mentioned, I've grown as a person and changed a lot of things. She hasn't grown an ounce. We don't fight or anything , and she seems happy. So that's good.
> 
> I'm happy . Just not happy with her. More like independently happy. And b3.. She's awesome.


Hey Boston-

I am one who has been "silently" keeping up. I know I posted a few things a while back...

Like you, I am happier when I am away from my wife. I am happy doing things with my daughter...I realize that I wasted several years of trying to develop the loving, passionate, sexual marriage I wanted... It never happened.

You are way smarter than me. It took me 4 years to realize what you learned in 1 year...I am also in a much better place than 6 months ago..It was just 3 plus years hell... Maybe like boot camp. We initially are broken down before we can rebuild ourselves. I had to be broken, I had to hit my bottom, I accepted that my wife will not ever change....acceptance... I will no longer work at saving our marriage.... I feel like this huge weight has been lifted...

I sleep better most nights now.

I love every second that I spend with T3. She seems to think all is normal as well...


----------



## LongWalk

BostonBruins32 said:


> She initiates sometimes. Again it's my bad, as I've lost a lot of interest. As I mentioned, I've grown as a person and changed a lot of things. She hasn't grown an ounce. We don't fight or anything , and she seems happy. So that's good.
> 
> I'm happy . Just not happy with her. More like independently happy. And b3.. She's awesome.


Why does she want to have sex? Duty? Does she express lust, have orgasms?

She's happy? She can't read you at all. What happened to feminine intuition?


----------



## Anon Pink

Boston, grow a real pair and divorce. You are not only wasting your time but your wasting your wife's time. This is sick what you're doing!


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon,

Completely agree i'm being a phony.

The issue is B3. First, B3 stands no chance without me around. Zero chance. As for custody, we both know i have less than 3% chance of gaining full custody because I was born with a penls. 

You see, I come home from work and B2 is on the couch on facebook or internet, and B3 is either watching a youtube video of something or stomping around looking for attention. I then balance dinner (because B3 says shes hungry and honestly I am too) and taking care of B3. I have her help me take dinner or she brings a puzzle into the kitchen for us to build while dinner is going. B2 does not walk to the park with us, despite invites. B3 only wants to do things as a family that are visible to facebook (ie going apple picking then making us pose 50 times for photos) or things that involve shopping/restauranting. 

B3 has no chance without me here. I realize its a p#ssy move for me to just stay, but its the best I can think of for now.


----------



## BostonBruins32

LongWalk said:


> Why does she want to have sex? Duty? Does she express lust, have orgasms?
> 
> She's happy? She can't read you at all. What happened to feminine intuition?


NO idea why she wants to have sex sometimes. I assumed to soften me into having a kid eventually (hey if i make him think i want sex with him then he'll maybe want kid), but i dont know. I initiated a few times in past say 4 months, to which she doesnt reject. This is not a sex issue at all. In theory, I tihnk i could initiate 3 times a week with success, to which she would orgasm. I also have learned her odd way of initiating. She will literally sort of tickle or poke at me in a playful way, which means shes interested. Someone on here once said that her initiation might look way different and start earlier, and this is definately the case.


Longwalk, she is happy. why would she not be happy? Remember, her main concern is getting what she wants, regarrdless of B3 or I. I dont buy her flowers at random, or make her special meals, etc.. but she gets all the things she needs or wants. And or she's allowed to do all the things she wants. I lost 10 lbs, she didnt notice. I havent raised my voice to B3 in literally months (B2 yells few times a week), sheh hasnt noticed. I've now competed in like 10-15 races this year which I place high or win, and she hasnt noticed. B3 and I are working on reading every night, moving from 3 letter words to 4 letter words, and B2 hasnt noticed. The world is going on around her and she 100% doesnt notice.

if i had more money, I would test this theory further and buy a pickup truck and see if she notices (I'd like a Tundra if anyone wants to take on the payments)


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Anon,
> 
> Completely agree i'm being a phony.
> 
> The issue is B3. First, B3 stands no chance without me around. Zero chance. As for custody, we both know i have less than 3% chance of gaining full custody because I was born with a penls.
> 
> You see, I come home from work and B2 is on the couch on facebook or internet, and B3 is either watching a youtube video of something or stomping around looking for attention. I then balance dinner (because B3 says shes hungry and honestly I am too) and taking care of B3. I have her help me take dinner or she brings a puzzle into the kitchen for us to build while dinner is going. B2 does not walk to the park with us, despite invites. B3 only wants to do things as a family that are visible to facebook (ie going apple picking then making us pose 50 times for photos) or things that involve shopping/restauranting.
> 
> B3 has no chance without me here. I realize its a p#ssy move for me to just stay, but its the best I can think of for now.


Then start keeping a record, daily, of what interactions you have and what you see that B2 has. See a lawyer and find out what type of daily record would be best.

Your wife doesn't deserve custody and you do. Your wife has some sort of issue and your continued passivity concerning her issue is a form of enabling. Giving her enough rope with which to hang herself, so to speak. Your wife is lost in whatever false world she lives in and you are sitting back and what hung it happen. It's sick and it's irresponsible as a human being to ignore it just because you are tired of conflict. 

The only chance all 3 of you have for a full and healthy life is on your shoulders! 

Anon1111 was smack on the money when he said a neglectful parent who sits back and does nothing when the other parent is being abusive is JUST as GUILTY!

Maybe your divorce and subsequent custody will snap your wife out of it and she can become a better person?

What you're doing is repugnant on several levels. Enlist her parents with help. Sit her father down and tell him what you've written here. Tell him you have fully checked out of the marriage and want nothing further to do with your wife but because she is the mother of your daughter it is in YOUR best interest that she realize that what she is doing cannot continue.

DO SOMETHING!


----------



## john117

Depending on the state where he lives and even the county, it makes little difference if the family court is pro women and determined to grant custody to them. In our very conservative and wealthy county too many divorces are due to high earning men "trading in" so the attitude of the court has always been to "protect" the woman (is there an emoticon for violin music?) or so I was told...

When the fireworks with my wife started I talked to a couple different lawyers, one said very unlikely for full custody and the other gave me the Susan Smith quote. And this after I raised two kids nearly on my own thru many years, not just thru preschool.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Blonde said:


> My H is so paranoid about losing any ability that he doesn't like eucalyptus (which I use for sore muscles) because he read that monks used it to dampen libido.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you needed the libido, John, there are options among BP meds. Which High Blood Pressure Drug Does Not Cause ED? - Prostate.net




Fwiw, bystolic + amlodipine here for hbp. Had been on metoprolol + lisinopril + amlodipine, and doc was thinking increasing metoprolol increase was needed but I was already at such a high dose she was worried about increasing it.



I like bystolic instead of metoprolol+lisinopril. I think I feel less tired, but have no proof of that.


----------



## LongWalk

I agree with AnonPink that you should not assume that drifting along like this is acceptable.

One of these days this facade will collapse.

If you insist on living with your W to provide a family environment that is not healthy, your daughter is going internalize the experience and it will be her normal.


----------



## Anon Pink

LongWalk said:


> *If you insist on living with your W to provide a family environment that is not healthy, your daughter is going internalize the experience and it will be her normal.*


:iagree:

Exactly!


----------



## GettingIt_2

Boston, someday your daughter will understand that you gave up a chance for you own happiness in exchange for having her childhood go as you deem best. 

You are assuming that she will be better for this, and perhaps even will thank you one day for your sacrifice. 

Consider instead: she comes to resent you deeply for using her as an excuse to trap her mother, who she loves deeply, in a loveless sham of a marriage that deprived her of the chance to move on and join with someone who can love her.


----------



## john117

From the been there, done that department:

The last paragraph ain't happening because B2 will never develop the kind of loving relationship with B3 by spending hours every day on Facebook.

B3 will not necessarily despise B2 but will not give a care about her either. 

If B is lucky B2 will continue to be just indifferent, but if B2 pushes her luck and turns controlling she (B2) could find herself despising B3 instead for having a solid relationship with B. 

Likewise B will find making a princess out of B3 (as he should) and B2 will feel even more slighted. Then B3 will be a teenager and B2 will do her best to use her as a weapon against B.

I'm not predicting any of these will happen with B, but they happened in my case. It won't hurt to keep an eye out.

J3 was the black sheep of the family according to J2. J4, smarter than everyone else in the family put together, realized what was going on and avoided J2's "evil eye" at a young age.


----------



## PieceOfSky

LongWalk said:


> I agree with AnonPink that you should not assume that drifting along like this is acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of these days this facade will collapse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you insist on living with your W to provide a family environment that is not healthy, your daughter is going internalize the experience and it will be her normal.




Not that I am qualified to like this post just yet, but yeah, rings true.



Also, if you don't give B2 feedback, appropriately negative, her monster may grow.


----------



## john117

It will regardless.


----------



## BostonBruins32

The feedback gets a very angry response. I defend b3 all the time and it creates a tough day or two. Im done with relationship feedback. If it's b3 related I dont let it slide .


----------



## Trickster

The Centrality Of The Normal Family — BagNews

Is this the "normal" family you guys are speaking of?


----------



## Trickster

A “Normal” Family | Play With Your Family

What about this "normal" family


----------



## Zouz

Boston ,

I spent the week end reading the 200 pages of this thread !

I was almost sure through reading the posts that you will end up in a similar situation like mine !

Every time I think it is resolved , few days would come and proove that wife doesn't give a S**t about how i feel ; then all will be my fault when I explode and become the s** ma*** who only cares about his ....

in my case it is not only lack of intimacy ; the base is lack of respect , affection from a lazy LD wife.


to make a long story short ; 

I do respect a lot John's opinion , he the most experienced in this ;

I have also around 15-16 years experience with An LD ; which I believe is also worth taking benefit from ...

To cut a long story short :

1)-You can *never ever* change an LD ( unless she is not realy LD: that's when her condition is purely temporary and medical related).

I believe you already discovered this over the wasted year .

2) I admire your commitment to your child and respect it ;I a did the same in 15 years !

But at the end your problem will be transformed from your wife to your kid .

to elaborate , what will you do when your kid grow up and find her way ?

you will be left with the sense of anger because at that time , you will need more love than what you need now ; the need will be even multiplied by factors of 10 or 20 or more !

In the middle age you will either cheat or go for open marriage ( or try and fail because of sense of guilt ).


I advise you to go for a divorce ; your child will be better with divorced parents rather than cheating , open marriage or witnessing two parents who fights ;they will notice your pain even if you don't speak .

My 12 yrs old girl , came to me kissing my hands tapping on my shoulder to calm after she only saw her mom looking at me with hate !

I didn't even speak ! the 12 yrs old girl was smarter than her mom .

Throw the towel ; you deserve to be happy ; you are young .

Otherwise ; if you stay ; just make sure that at least your physical needs are met ; I insisted recently to have an answer to :

how many times we can go for ; of course this mean that no affection from now on is expected ; it is only physical ; and from her side she is doing it almost obliged ; especially because I asked for it.

she replied three times per week !

I was shocked because even once per week is fine with me ;so 
now though it is not normal to have sex with a wife that she doesn't want ; this should save me from at least frustration ; 

because I have a schedule ; which means other days I am not feeling down expecting S** from a nun !

Good luck .


----------



## tommyr

Zouz said:


> Otherwise ; if you stay ; just make sure that at least your physical needs are met ; I insisted recently to have an answer to :
> 
> how many times we can go for ; of course this mean that no affection from now on is expected ; it is only physical ; and from her side she is doing it almost obliged ; especially because I asked for it.
> 
> she replied three times per week !
> 
> I was shocked because even once per week is fine with me ;so
> now though it is not normal to have sex with a wife that she doesn't want ; this should save me from at least frustration ;
> 
> because I have a schedule ; which means other days I am not feeling down expecting S** from a nun !


Zouz, this was a major change that fixed my sexless marriage. I won't claim this will fix every LD situation, but I've been having regular (and mutually fun) sex with my LD wife for the past 8 years. A big part of that was forcing a specific commitment to sexual frequency. We settled on 2X per week and while I wish it were 3 or even 7, I am content with 2X per week. 

Just the mere fact we both have agreed on a precise number, suddenly alot of our sexual issues are solved. No more ambiguity or uncertain expectations. She's not constantly avoiding me, or (can anybody relate?) pulling out the excuses (I'm tired; I might have a cold; tomorrow looks like a busy day) several hours BEFORE bedtime, as a preemptive strike.

Rather, she knows I won't initiate sex any more than our agreed 2X per week. I honestly believe she is much more relaxed and comfortable because the expectations have been clearly defined and both of us agreed. And it means 5 days per week has eliminated her natural fear that I'll want sex. She seems better able to enjoy the 2 days per week that I do initiate sex, she even anticipates these days and it's almost like SHE initiates sometimes.


----------



## tommyr

I forgot to mention that it only works because my wife (despite her being clinical LD) was willing to work with me on a deal-breaker need for sex in our marriage. I forced the issue and she agreed. Some might call this an ultimatum, but I call it honesty. She needed to know that long term sexless marriage would NOT work for me. She needed to know I would not stay married if she did not love me evidenced by ignoring a basic human need like sex.


----------



## john117

My experience is only about 6 years but really points to the fact that there is no real single point failure that causes LD to begin with. 

I have often used the terms "stupid" and "evil" to indicate that non physiological related LD really boils down to a clueless or selfish (usually a mix) partner.

The more the meter is towards clueless the more it can be fixed by the myriad of alphabet soup books. And the more the meter is towards selfish the less likely it is that said books and methods will be as useful.

The rest is just gravy - after 2 years on TAM it looks like the best answer depends on how many children and how young... So the inevitable split can be addressed easier.


----------



## LongWalk

BB,

The sexlessness of your marriage is only a symptom of the uncomfortable and unhealthy situation. If your wife were able to connect with your erotically, then the two of you might have the energy and insight to be healthier and happier.

Right now you are in a constant rear guard action. Not good.

Divorce and get 50/50 custody. Once your daughter is a bit older if she finds herself alienated from her mother, she may seek more time with you. Once a child reaches 13 or 14, courts will listen to them, depending on their maturity.

File for divorce. Book MC. Present the papers to her at MC. Explain what has to happen to save your marriage. If she starts to work at via IC and MC, hang in there.


----------



## Buddy400

LongWalk said:


> Divorce and get 50/50 custody. Once your daughter is a bit older if she finds herself alienated from her mother, she may seek more time with you. Once a child reaches 13 or 14, courts will listen to them, depending on their maturity.


I agree. You shouldn't be doing so much living through your child. I often think that I might have done a disservice to my kids (now early 20's) by providing them with too happy a childhood. They have to know how to deal with adversity. Adversity, though not TOO much adversity, does build character.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Honestly guys the sexless thing is a non issue at this point. Literally zero rejections in about 9-10 months. She initiates more than ever.

Its 2 things:
-The past and closure and potential for something going on again. Meaning I am not fully confident that she will never "need space" again. I am not confident that if an attractive wealthy treeman shows up, shes not gone. It could be because it was just a year ago. It could be because it felt like it was out of the blue when it happened. i dont know. Either way, minimal trust. Therefore I cant open up to her. I have a wall up.
-The narssicist thing. Its painful. She called my friend's new gf a narssicist this past weekend. I nearly spit out my beer. kettle pot black. If she did things to or for me that show love, I'd feel different. But she doesnt. And the facebook posts dont mean ****, because thats literally all she does to express her love for me: post things about love and us and marriage on there. Once logged out of facebook, she doesnt move a pinky out of her way for me. 

divorce is probably best. But I cant right now. I cant bring myself to it. I might be chicken shiv or just a fraud. Whatever. i'm trying to sort through it. Again, if we didnt have a child this would be way way easier.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Why do you tolerate letting her parade you and B2 on FB like that?

Why don't you tell her you don't care how many pictures she puts up of herself, but that she should ask your permission before including pictures of you or information about you (and B2) on her wall?

It just seems like reasonable boundary--I'd never put up a picture of my husband or talk about him on FB without checking with him first. And we have an agreement about how pics of our kids are uploaded as well. 

Is this an issue of just not wanting to "rock the boat?" If so, then you continue to allow her to think her behavior is okay. It sounds to me that you're being a bit of a cake eater here. You've manipulated circumstances to maximize what you will get out of the marriage without informing her of your true feelings and intentions. You can denigrate her behaviors all you want, but what you are doing really is appalling. 

You owe yourself and your daughter better. Move on.


----------



## Buddy400

tommyr said:


> Zouz, this was a major change that fixed my sexless marriage. I won't claim this will fix every LD situation, but I've been having regular (and mutually fun) sex with my LD wife for the past 8 years. A big part of that was forcing a specific commitment to sexual frequency. We settled on 2X per week and while I wish it were 3 or even 7, I am content with 2X per week.
> 
> Just the mere fact we both have agreed on a precise number, suddenly alot of our sexual issues are solved. No more ambiguity or uncertain expectations. She's not constantly avoiding me, or (can anybody relate?) pulling out the excuses (I'm tired; I might have a cold; tomorrow looks like a busy day) several hours BEFORE bedtime, as a preemptive strike.
> 
> Rather, she knows I won't initiate sex any more than our agreed 2X per week. I honestly believe she is much more relaxed and comfortable because the expectations have been clearly defined and both of us agreed. And it means 5 days per week has eliminated her natural fear that I'll want sex. She seems better able to enjoy the 2 days per week that I do initiate sex, she even anticipates these days and it's almost like SHE initiates sometimes.


tommyr,

I really think that this is the solution to a majority of HD/LD marriage problems (at least, when the man is the HD and assuming that it is otherwise a good marriage). It seems too simple and I think people resist it for that reason. Also, it involves compromise and it seems that, these days, people think that compromise is a bad thing (you should just keep going until you find the perfect match where one can be happy without ever inconveniencing oneself. Yeah, like that's going to happen). All that's needed is a partner that is genuinely concerned about your happiness and the health of the marriage.

I believe that most LD women have responsive desire. They don't think about sex all that often and they could easily go without it for long periods of time. And yet, they seem to enjoy it when it happens. I think the analogy of going to the gym works best. You know you'll feel better after you've gone, but you find it hard to go spontaneously. If you don’t really want to go to the gym and your partner begins to behave in a way that indicates that he’d like you to, you’re going to start resenting that behavior. You’re going to start avoiding situations where he can behave like that. You’re going to start making up excuses why you won’t be able to go that day before he even hints at it. And yet, if he ever succeeds in getting you to go, you’re going to feel great and wonder why you don’t do it all the time. Same with sex. The trick is getting her to go in the first place. And, once she gets in the habit of going, she will probably want to go more often. So you schedule it for 3 days a week. She knows it’s coming and can get be prepared (maybe even sort of look forward to it). The other 4 days, she can relax and be herself, knowing that you aren’t trying to get her to go to the gym.

If you need her to want to go as often as you do and to do it spontaneously (essentially completely change herself) and you won’t accept anything less, it almost certainly isn’t going to work. You could try to talk her into wanting to go on her own. You could explain the health benefits in more detail; have her read books. You could divorce her and find someone else that wants to go to the gym just as much as you do. You could try to awaken her inner desire to be healthy. That might work, but it probably won’t.

I don’t think it’s a reach to believe that husbands want more sex than their wives. If we can live with that assumption, let’s assign some numbers; say 70% of husbands are HD and only 30% of wives are HD. If no one should compromise and HD husbands can only be happy with HD wives, then an awful lot of people aren’t going to be married. 

Again, this is only for otherwise good marriages where both parties genuinely care about the other and the wife likes sex when it occurs. In order to get the LD’s attention, they have to know how important it is to their husband. To make this clear, the marriage probably has to be put at risk. Of course, the husband should also read up on the “No More Mr. Nice Guy” complex.


----------



## Buddy400

BostonBruins32 said:


> Honestly guys the sexless thing is a non issue at this point. Literally zero rejections in about 9-10 months. She initiates more than ever.


Very interesting that the sexless thing stopped. If I recall correctly (read the whole thread a long time ago, remember, I signed up to TAM just to yell at you), I think you implemented the whole 180, No More Mr. Nice Guy, focus on your own life thing pretty well.

So, that worked.

The problem is that that wasn't the entire (or maybe even the most important) problem. Although you wouldn't have realized that if you hadn't solved it and moved past it.


----------



## john117

Responsive desire is good however anything infrequent enough slips into mythology territory quite quickly.

Responsive desire also runs head to head with the maximum desired (tolerated ) frequency... Yea, the LD responds well but will may not be very likely to move to increase frequency to something acceptable to the non LD partner.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Buddy.. That's just it. And to boot, she isn't asexual or really even THAT ld to begin with. Many with LD partners think it's just how the spouse is. I think most times they're just LD the partner, not with everyone ( ie loss of attraction) .

Also, gettingit: the facebook photos dobt bother me. It's more that it is used as the only offering of love from her. Nice photos of us. Nice messages. That's fine , but it can't serve as a replacement for real signs or efforts of love in real life. That's my only beef with it


----------



## BostonBruins32

Buddy400 said:


> Very interesting that the sexless thing stopped. If I recall correctly (read the whole thread a long time ago, remember, I signed up to TAM just to yell at you), I think you implemented the whole 180, No More Mr. Nice Guy, focus on your own life thing pretty well.
> 
> So, that worked.
> 
> The problem is that that wasn't the entire (or maybe even the most important) problem. Although you wouldn't have realized that if you hadn't solved it and moved past it.


The problem may also be around expectations. 

What I expected from a marriage or from a partner might be different from what my wife expected. A while back, I thought my partner would sort of "adore" me. Would think I'm the man. I thought if I exceeded most expectations with regards to traits I thought she would feel are important, she would have continued desire for me (sexual and nonsexual). 

Things changed. No amount of success at work helped. No amount of coparenting/pregnancy support helped. No amount of bending over backwards helped. Being in good shape didnt help. Over say 3-4 years, I went from "exceeding expectations" to barely meeting them, as far as how she percieves me. The criticism made me mad, insecure, and tense.. and further enhanced the divide. 

What I can't wrap my brain around today is how I'm supposed to feel and what I should realistically expect. I often wonder if my expectations are too high. My wife's mother reams out her husband all the time and demands him to do everything for her. My wife's aunt (her fathers brothers wife) left her uncle 3 times over the past 35 years, 2 times confirmed due to needing space and cheating. Recently she left for 3 years and came back. My guess is she was cheating again and new man left her or something similar. My wife's mom said "im glad shes back, they're meant to be". Huh? meant to be? But it got me thinking. There is a history here of my wife and her mom's expectations of marriage. I dont know if they expect cheating to be ok, but I think they do believe that a marriage should include said wife doing 100% of what she wants when she wants, regardless of said husband. My wife's mom once told her husband shes not in love with him anymore when he was bedridden after a massive surgery (hes fine now). She took it back a short while later, he confided in me recently that he never forgot it and never felt the same. Exactly. 

B2 (and her mom) carry on through thier life and marriage doing things on their own terms. Then when feelings are hurt, "hey sorry bout that, get over it we love each other and stuff". Its not that simple. My wife has learned this from her mom and carries this out today. Except for my wife having this need for attention from other men (less recently, more in past few years) we would have the same marriage as her parents. Wife gets her way most of the time and thinkgs the marriage is fine. Husband stays in marriage, feels ok for the most part, but definately not deeply in love with wife. 

Its expectations. We're not on the same page. We're on different planets. And Im not actually sure there is a right planet.


----------



## Anon Pink

So break the cycle!!!

Help B3 grow into a healthy woman who doesn't expect from others what she herself can't or won't deliver.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> Honestly guys the sexless thing is a non issue at this point. Literally zero rejections in about 9-10 months. She initiates more than ever.


Just repeating that for emphasis. 

I identify with you BB as I routinely stand up for my children. I have more respect for you STAYING to protect your child because that is the path I have walked for years. IMO it is selfish to "look out for number one" when one has children who will suffer for it.

Perhaps eventually, your role model of good parenting will rub off? The fruit will be compelling and undeniable?

Your story also proves that good sex does NOT make a good marriage. IMO it is a rare male that understands this. They never seem to seek advice on TAM unless the sex is suffering and they seem to think if the sex is fixed the M is fixed. NOT! NOT! NOT!


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Also, gettingit: the facebook photos dobt bother me. It's more that it is used as the only offering of love from her. Nice photos of us. Nice messages. That's fine , but it can't serve as a replacement for real signs or efforts of love in real life. That's my only beef with it


Pardon my bluntness: Your boundaries suck. 

She will never have a clue if you don't start setting some. 

Stop with living the parallel life. It's manipulative and wrong.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> The problem may also be around expectations.
> 
> What I expected from a marriage or from a partner might be different from what my wife expected.
> 
> I often wonder if my expectations are too high.


Yep. Happily ever after is a disney myth. Expectations are premeditated resentments.

You expect your wife to adore you- blech.

The FB thing is beyond me... perhaps you can count it though? I use my maiden name on FB and recently took my H off as H . Now I made my relationship status completely private. How would that make you feel if you were the H?

I think it would help if you appreciated good things about her and count them as her way of showing love. Does she stay in shape physically? Does she look nice? Does she provide some domestic support (child care, laundry, etc....)? Some income?


----------



## Blonde

Welcome | WWME

or 

Marriage Help Program For Couples

because you already have reached the goal of MMSL and NMMNG which is sexual attraction and sex whenever you want it...

but emotional connection is apparently still lacking...

the above programs will help with *emotional* intimacy (to the extent your W is capable of it :scratchhead


----------



## john117

Ok that rules out my wife


----------



## Anon Pink

Blonde said:


> Just repeating that for emphasis.
> 
> I identify with you BB as I routinely stand up for my children. I have more respect for you STAYING to protect your child because that is the path I have walked for years. IMO it is selfish to "look out for number one" when one has children who will suffer for it.
> 
> Perhaps eventually, your role model of good parenting will rub off? The fruit will be compelling and undeniable?
> 
> Your story also proves that good sex does NOT make a good marriage. IMO it is a rare male that understands this. They never seem to seek advice on TAM unless the sex is suffering and they seem to think if the sex is fixed the M is fixed. NOT! NOT! NOT!


It's enabling. It's looking the other way when something wrong is happening. It's ignoring your boundaries. It's allowing your spouse to continue to believe everything is fine when it very clearly is not.

It is not good parenting. It is not modeling something that should be continued from one generation to the next. It is not looking out for number one when you refuse to participate in a sham of a marriage with a spouse who, although may have good moments, has bad parenting moments that negate the good parenting moments. It is not teaching your child that relationships take work *when no one is working on the relationship* but instead they quietly forbear distance and disconnect!

It's disgraceful!


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
You have completely rewired your response pattern in the last year. 

1. You decide what is good for you and B3 and then you 'Do It'. 
2. B2 is no longer able to bully or manipulate you.
3. You have emerged as the primary parent and a terrific parent at that. Frankly you are fulfilling both the father role and enough of the mother role to fill the big hole created by B2's ipad/Facebook addictions. 

You have also come to perceive reality as it is. Which means recognizing B2's laziness, selfishness, irritability, poor interpersonal skills and low impulse control. 

And you have stepped up and constructively told B2 what you expect from her. 

And I don't care what anyone on this thread says, you know the brutal truth of the matter. In marriage you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. 

When you tolerated being treated like dirt, you not only got treated badly, you were treated steadily worse and worse. 

And you have done a terrific job at completely renegotiating your position in the marriage. You've done so by being smart, and stable and consistent and assertive. You have been fair and patient and determined. 

You have fought to create a healthy marriage. And in the space of one year, you have at least removed much of the disease with your marriage. And done so without acts of aggression or intimidation. Without profanity or threats of divorce. 

Because I think I know you pretty well at this point, there is only one thing that perhaps I would have stated differently were I you.

You don't need to be adored. You never did. 

You expect the occasional moment where your spouse expresses admiration for you and/or your accomplishments. 

Honestly, you are moving the needle steadily in the right direction. 

Because the respect meter has moved from:
- A steady stream of disrespect via B2 lashing out at you multiple times a week 
to
- Much more impulse control on her part 
- The occasional apology
- Etc...

So I say: Well done sir. Well done.



BostonBruins32 said:


> The problem may also be around expectations.
> 
> What I expected from a marriage or from a partner might be different from what my wife expected. A while back, I thought my partner would sort of "adore" me. Would think I'm the man. I thought if I exceeded most expectations with regards to traits I thought she would feel are important, she would have continued desire for me (sexual and nonsexual).
> 
> Things changed. No amount of success at work helped. No amount of coparenting/pregnancy support helped. No amount of bending over backwards helped. Being in good shape didnt help. Over say 3-4 years, I went from "exceeding expectations" to barely meeting them, as far as how she percieves me. The criticism made me mad, insecure, and tense.. and further enhanced the divide.
> 
> What I can't wrap my brain around today is how I'm supposed to feel and what I should realistically expect. I often wonder if my expectations are too high. My wife's mother reams out her husband all the time and demands him to do everything for her. My wife's aunt (her fathers brothers wife) left her uncle 3 times over the past 35 years, 2 times confirmed due to needing space and cheating. Recently she left for 3 years and came back. My guess is she was cheating again and new man left her or something similar. My wife's mom said "im glad shes back, they're meant to be". Huh? meant to be? But it got me thinking. There is a history here of my wife and her mom's expectations of marriage. I dont know if they expect cheating to be ok, but I think they do believe that a marriage should include said wife doing 100% of what she wants when she wants, regardless of said husband. My wife's mom once told her husband shes not in love with him anymore when he was bedridden after a massive surgery (hes fine now). She took it back a short while later, he confided in me recently that he never forgot it and never felt the same. Exactly.
> 
> B2 (and her mom) carry on through thier life and marriage doing things on their own terms. Then when feelings are hurt, "hey sorry bout that, get over it we love each other and stuff". Its not that simple. My wife has learned this from her mom and carries this out today. Except for my wife having this need for attention from other men (less recently, more in past few years) we would have the same marriage as her parents. Wife gets her way most of the time and thinkgs the marriage is fine. Husband stays in marriage, feels ok for the most part, but definately not deeply in love with wife.
> 
> Its expectations. We're not on the same page. We're on different planets. And Im not actually sure there is a right planet.


----------



## john117

All the same, it's a truce, not a marriage. At some point B2 will wake up from the Facebook haze and revert to her previous behavior. 

Why?

Because she can't understand what B wants, and does not know or care - likely both - how to provide it.

She things sex is the answer to all men issues. It's not. And that's what B sees and withdraws further. 

He may be succeeding in the quantitive measures but he's more into qualitative metrics... 

Right now B2's plans for a house and B4 are on the back-burner. When they surface again and disagreements flare up you will see what's in store.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> It's enabling. It's looking the other way when something wrong is happening. It's ignoring your boundaries. It's allowing your spouse to continue to believe everything is fine when it very clearly is not.
> 
> It is not good parenting. It is not modeling something that should be continued from one generation to the next. It is not looking out for number one when you refuse to participate in a sham of a marriage with a spouse who, although may have good moments, has bad parenting moments that negate the good parenting moments. It is not teaching your child that relationships take work *when no one is working on the relationship* but instead they quietly forbear distance and disconnect!
> 
> It's disgraceful!


I honestly dont disagree. I just cant get myself to get out of the relationship.


----------



## Bobby5000

Calling all LD women. What are your reasons for rejecting your HD spouse? I initiate about 10 times per month, and get rejected 9 of those times. I feel bad for you but think you are approaching this wrong. 

First, women are competitive and value things based upon their perception of what others want. Go to a restaurant that's crowded and your girlfriend or wife wants to go there, call a beautician and he's booked, she wants an appointment. Have a husband who keeps asking for sex, that diminishes her desire. 
STOP ASKING AND MAKE YOURSELF MORE DESIRABLE TO HER. 

Start working out more and try to get nicer clothes. Be more mysterious, come home one night a little later. Try to have a woman acquaintance call your home for some reason. 

You can discuss sex, but it should never be in the context of continually asking for it for you then get the same answer. Honey I am sorry, it's me, not you, you wouldn't want to just go through the motions when I didn't feel it. For the time being, it's just not happening but I will tell you when it does. In the meantime, I am turned on by getting a new kitchen which should set you back 35,000, and have a list of other expenditures. 

No you first think about whether you have done or doing some things wrong in which case you should address that. If not, find a reason not to do something she likes, have an excuse for not going to the work formal or something else. When she expresses anger, apologize but indicate you couldn't do it. Resist the tendency to tie other activities too quickly to sex but ultimately you need to make the connection. She cannot treat you like garbage and have a happy marriage.


----------



## Zouz

Boston ,

I always admire the words that comes out from Wise guys :
listen to what John is saying .

I have dealt with a wife who is exactly like yours for 17 Years ;
passed through all , all kind of resolution attempts you can think of .

sometimes it is mandotary to operate and remove the tumor when cancer of the soul is bigger that a healthy organ .

do you need another 15 years and 3 children like me so that you realize it ?

Wake up man , get out of the denial phase , If you can't go through a divorce ;define your conditions to stay and enforce some rules ; You have to show the size of your balls by now .

read my thread " I miss my wife #2 " and you will understand what am I talking about .


T.C


----------



## In Absentia

Zouz said:


> Boston ,
> 
> I always admire the words that comes out from Wise guys :
> listen to what John is saying .
> 
> I have dealt with a wife who is exactly like yours for 17 Years ;
> passed through all , all kind of resolution attempts you can think of .
> 
> sometimes it is mandotary to operate and remove the tumor when cancer of the soul is bigger that a healthy organ .
> 
> do you need another 15 years and 3 children like me so that you realize it ?
> 
> Wake up man , get out of the denial phase , If you can't go through a divorce ;define your conditions to stay and enforce some rules ; You have to show the size of your balls by now .
> 
> read my thread " I miss my wife #2 " and you will understand what am I talking about .
> 
> 
> T.C



That doesn't work at all if you have a wife with zero drive, for whatever reason... they just don't think about sex. They have to decide to have sex. And this is not very often. If you force the issue, they do it for you. Personally, I don't want pity sex. Crap situation to be in, but there is no solution.


----------



## Zouz

Absentia,


you are right in what u say ; but if there is no other solution then it will keep the husband in marriage ;

she will do it ( my wife did) when it is clear option to avoid divorce.


having it this way is the best available option ;It is hard to do it especially if the Husband is sensitive ( like me) ; I never though i will do it to my wife ; but adopting it recently showed to me that it decreased my anger ; no expectations unmet , and the most important is that it will not hurt her as much as deprivation hurts me .

it is better than divorce , cheating or deprivation...


----------



## Trickster

Anon Pink said:


> It's enabling. It's looking the other way when something wrong is happening. It's ignoring your boundaries. It's allowing your spouse to continue to believe everything is fine when it very clearly is not.
> 
> It is not good parenting. It is not modeling something that should be continued from one generation to the next. It is not looking out for number one when you refuse to participate in a sham of a marriage with a spouse who, although may have good moments, has bad parenting moments that negate the good parenting moments. It is not teaching your child that relationships take work *when no one is working on the relationship* but instead they quietly forbear distance and disconnect!
> 
> It's disgraceful!




AP-

I can understand why you and many others agree with this... However, do you believe some parents can be too perfect in their marriage? What about the truly loving couple who never have a reason to argue. The ones who put the needs of the children and spouse before their own needs? Could that cause a problem as well?

This may not be the norm but my older neighbors in their 80's who have been married 58 years. They both seem like an amazingly loving couple. I am sure they were great parents. They have sorta took on the role of parents to me..

Their daughter had a very unhappy marriage and had a 7 year long affair, which her husband knew about. When the kids moved out, they divorced. She has suffered many years of depression, alcoholic, prescription medcations, tried to kill herself...

When grandaughter graduated college, she drowned in the grandparents (my neighbors ) pool... She was a very good swimmer. I know she was drinking at the time. Don't know if it was suicide...

The son never married...Never had any kids... He has focused on his career... Single, no gf, no relationships, he is very successful with work....

Can parents be too good?


----------



## Trickster

How to Land Your Kid in Therapy - Lori Gottlieb - The Atlantic

Too perfect.


----------



## Blonde

Anon Pink said:


> It's enabling. It's looking the other way when something wrong is happening.


Standing up for a child when the other parent is being neglectful/abusive is not enabling nor looking the other way.

BB's lack of "love feelings" are not his W's fault and based on BB's descriptions, B3 will be better off if they stay together than the mom having the main custody.


----------



## Blonde

Anon Pink said:


> It's enabling. It's looking the other way when something wrong is happening. It's ignoring your boundaries. It's allowing your spouse to continue to believe everything is fine when it very clearly is not.


:scratchhead: How exactly is confronting bad behavior toward the child each and every time "looking the other way"??? TBH it creates a lot of conflict and stress in a M.

It is really quite sad when someone is so detached from real life to the point they can zone out that their 3 yo child is hungry... Leaving the 3 yo alone in her custody while he pursues "love" in greener pastures... IMO that would be very selfish and unloving toward B3 and I hear in BB's posts that it is a HUGE factor in his staying put.

To make his lot in life more tolerable I hope BB remains in counseling and works on reframing how he sees his W. Seeing her with some compassion might help his frustration level. She is seriously broken that she has no maternal instinct to feed her child over playing on FB


----------



## Blonde

Anon Pink said:


> It is not teaching your child that relationships take work *when no one is working on the relationship* but instead they quietly forbear distance and disconnect!
> 
> It's disgraceful!


If she is capable of emotional connection, Welcome | WWME or Marriage Help Program For Couples will help with that.

She MAY not be capable. Hard to tell without trying...


----------



## john117

There are some people who are simply incapable of emotional processing. Like E.Q. of zero.

B2 spends her time on social media polishing her mirage of perfection. J2 gets her few emotional needs fulfilled by watching Lifetime Movie Network. 

That would have been self evident if I had met her family pre marriage - they are all like that. The only emotion they convey well is anger. Not healthy.


----------



## BostonBruins32

John, your wife and I could be a match. I happen to enjoy a lifetime flick now and again. Craigslist Killer. Max factor pervert. Seen a few good ones.

Blonde, just a correction note (to adjust the level here), B2 doesnt ignore B3 being hungry in favor of facebook. It's more like B3 wants to play with action figures or thomas the train or dolls or a puzzle and B2 doesnt have the time. Sometimes choosing laundry (which could wait till 830pm after b3 goes to bed) or painting a door frame over hide and seek while B3 is up. Still I get your point.


----------



## Blonde

*This* was what stuck in my craw...



BostonBruins32 said:


> A
> You see, I come home from work and *B2 is on the couch on facebook or internet, and B3 is either watching a youtube video of something or stomping around looking for attention. I then balance dinner (because B3 says shes hungry and honestly I am too) and taking care of B3. * I have her help me take dinner or she brings a puzzle into the kitchen for us to build while dinner is going. B2 does not walk to the park with us, despite invites. B3 only wants to do things as a family that are visible to facebook (ie going apple picking then making us pose 50 times for photos) or things that involve shopping/restauranting. *B3 has no chance without me here.* I realize its a p#ssy move for me to just stay, but its the best I can think of for now.


*ITA and hear you loud and clear*


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> J
> Blonde, just a correction note (to adjust the level here), B2 doesnt ignore B3 being hungry in favor of facebook. It's more like B3 wants to play with action figures or thomas the train or dolls or a puzzle and B2 doesnt have the time. Sometimes choosing laundry (which could wait till 830pm after b3 goes to bed) or painting a door frame over hide and seek while B3 is up. Still I get your point.


This, I understand better. I don't want to paint a door or start laundry at 830pm. As the mother of 8 once-upon-a-time toddlers, I can tell you that they did not get my undivided attention at all times. There was lots of work which had to be done! When someone was entertaining them (or they were entertaining each other), excellent time to get stuff done!


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> The problem may also be around expectations.
> 
> What I expected from a marriage or from a partner might be different from what my wife expected. A while back, I thought my partner would sort of "adore" me. Would think I'm the man. I thought if I exceeded most expectations with regards to traits I thought she would feel are important, she would have continued desire for me (sexual and nonsexual).
> 
> Things changed. No amount of success at work helped. No amount of coparenting/pregnancy support helped. No amount of bending over backwards helped. Being in good shape didnt help. Over say 3-4 years, I went from "exceeding expectations" to barely meeting them, as far as how she percieves me. *The criticism made me mad, insecure, and tense..* and further enhanced the divide.
> 
> *What I can't wrap my brain around today is how I'm supposed to feel and what I should realistically expect. * I often wonder if my expectations are too high. My wife's mother reams out her husband all the time and demands him to do everything for her. My wife's aunt (her fathers brothers wife) left her uncle 3 times over the past 35 years, 2 times confirmed due to needing space and cheating. Recently she left for 3 years and came back. My guess is she was cheating again and new man left her or something similar. My wife's mom said "im glad shes back, they're meant to be". Huh? meant to be? But it got me thinking. There is a history here of my wife and her mom's expectations of marriage. I dont know if they expect cheating to be ok, but I think they do believe that a marriage should include said wife doing 100% of what she wants when she wants, regardless of said husband. My wife's mom once told her husband shes not in love with him anymore when he was bedridden after a massive surgery (hes fine now). She took it back a short while later, *he confided in me recently that he never forgot it and never felt the same. Exactly. *
> 
> B2 (and her mom) carry on through thier life and marriage doing things on their own terms. Then when feelings are hurt, "hey sorry bout that, get over it we love each other and stuff". Its not that simple. My wife has learned this from her mom and carries this out today. Except for my wife having this need for attention from other men (less recently, more in past few years) we would have the same marriage as her parents. Wife gets her way most of the time and thinkgs the marriage is fine. *Husband stays in marriage, feels ok for the most part, but definately not deeply in love with wife. *
> 
> Its expectations. We're not on the same page. We're on different planets. *And Im not actually sure there is a right planet.*




You get to choose your preferred planet. This lifetime is important, and you don't get to do this one again.

If you were able to rewrite history and choose a planet for your MIL and FIL to have lived on all those years, which would you choose for them? I suspect you feel empathy for your FIL, and are sorry he has put up with all that.

If you were forced to pick a planet for B3 and her future lifetime companion, what sort of planet would you choose?

Maybe there is no universally right planet, but that's not really relevant. What is relevant is what planet you want to spend the next chunk of your life on, and whether any lesser planet will be worth the costs. 

Somewhat echoing something said above, regardless of the planet you live on for the time being, continue to be thoughtful and focused on setting limits and boundaries so you don't give back ground you have covered so far. Whether you leave at some point or stay forever, your daughter learns so much from your choices, how they affect you, and how you frame it all for her -- not only on the big questions like stay vs. leave, but with the daily or weekly challenges your wife's behavior presents to your daughter's need to feel loved and important to B2, and the challenges your wife presents to your fulfillment as a human being in a relationship. 

I like to think (but it's just a hunch) that a parents staying married or divorcing will not be the defining event in a child's life, it's whether there is a parent fully interested in the child's healthy needs and engaged with her, and also living authentically, setting and enforcing limits, EXPECTING to have his or her emotional needs be important to the partner, and willing to take action that shows life is to be lived, and joy and contentment is not only possible but honorable and preferred.


I wonder if your wife sees the paths her mother and aunt have taken in their relationships as unusual and ugly. If she doesn't, if she has essentially absorbed those paths as "normal" and "expected", I wonder if her view of it all would be different had her father and uncle expected more from this lifetime and marriage, and when their spouses were indifferent or incapable of providing it, chose action to leave that f'd up planet behind.

I think about that and my girls, who at nearly 15 and 12 have only recently started to see me reject my wife's worst behavior and demand a certain level of decency in our relationship. I worry they have never seen a non-draining, life-affirming, love-based marriage. I wonder what the effects will be if I don't show them that joy and love and healthy fulfilling relationships are possible, or at least that taking determined action to achieve such in one's life is better than the alternative.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> This, I understand better. I don't want to paint a door or start laundry at 830pm. As the mother of 8 once-upon-a-time toddlers, I can tell you that they did not get my undivided attention at all times. There was lots of work which had to be done! When someone was entertaining them (or they were entertaining each other), excellent time to get stuff done!


yes. except that its daily. I commute an hour each way and work 8-9 hours. When I get home, I'd love to mow the lawn or finish up a few things, but B3 needs my time. If it is a weekend day, at least I'm home and can mix time between house chores and B3 times. On a week night, B2 works 3 days per week till like 4, neither of us have gievn B3 much time. Therefore she needs some love, even if just cuddling before bed. B2 cant even find 20 mins to cuddle before bed with her. THATS what bugs me.


----------



## BostonBruins32

PieceOfSky said:


> You get to choose your preferred planet. This lifetime is important, and you don't get to do this one again.
> 
> If you were able to rewrite history and choose a planet for your MIL and FIL to have lived on all those years, which would you choose for them? I suspect you feel empathy for your FIL, and are sorry he has put up with all that.
> 
> If you were forced to pick a planet for B3 and her future lifetime companion, what sort of planet would you choose?
> 
> Maybe there is no universally right planet, but that's not really relevant. What is relevant is what planet you want to spend the next chunk of your life on, and whether any lesser planet will be worth the costs.
> 
> Somewhat echoing something said above, regardless of the planet you live on for the time being, continue to be thoughtful and focused on setting limits and boundaries so you don't give back ground you have covered so far. Whether you leave at some point or stay forever, your daughter learns so much from your choices, how they affect you, and how you frame it all for her -- not only on the big questions like stay vs. leave, but with the daily or weekly challenges your wife's behavior presents to your daughter's need to feel loved and important to B2, and the challenges your wife presents to your fulfillment as a human being in a relationship.
> 
> I like to think (but it's just a hunch) that a parents staying married or divorcing will not be the defining event in a child's life, it's whether there is a parent fully interested in the child's healthy needs and engaged with her, and also living authentically, setting and enforcing limits, EXPECTING to have his or her emotional needs be important to the partner, and willing to take action that shows life is to be lived, and joy and contentment is not only possible but honorable and preferred.
> 
> 
> I wonder if your wife sees the paths her mother and aunt have taken in their relationships as unusual and ugly. If she doesn't, if she has essentially absorbed those paths as "normal" and "expected", I wonder if her view of it all would be different had her father and uncle expected more from this lifetime and marriage, and when their spouses were indifferent or incapable of providing it, chose action to leave that f'd up planet behind.
> 
> I think about that and my girls, who at nearly 15 and 12 have only recently started to see me reject my wife's worst behavior and demand a certain level of decency in our relationship. I worry they have never seen a non-draining, life-affirming, love-based marriage. I wonder what the effects will be if I don't show them that joy and love and healthy fulfilling relationships are possible, or at least that taking determined action to achieve such in one's life is better than the alternative.


Good suff. Excellent input.

I don't know why her uncle has given her aunt another chance. Kids are grown (30something) and out of the house. Family had grieved the 3 year breakup and seemed to be doing OK..all relative, but ok. he didnt need her financially. its just something in his head or heart that wanted her to come back. \i can't explain it. My FIL needs his wife financially. He also (and trust me I love him like a father and best friend) is incapable of making decisions. Whatever you say MIL. So while I'm not sure to what degree he truly loves her, and I think he loves her on a strong level, he isnt about to leave the relationship. 

B2 very much has low standards for relationships, but only from the female perspective. Let me clarify... She has some girl friends who have cheated. She frowns upon it, but says "oh well that was then" in response to it. She has a girl friend who broke up with her father's child, but continues to allow him to live there and fix her car and clean the house etc. She has a girl friend who started cheating before her marriage was completely dissolved, it was on its way but not divorced. She has another friend who is a stay at home with 2 kids in school, yet she has groceries delieverd, lawn service etc. My wife doesnt frown much upon these things. I think that she thinks these are normal perfectly ok situations. 

So when B2's husband doesnt roll over and play dead like her friend's husbands, she seems shocked or pouty. The stark difference I see in her girl friends that makes me scratch my head is the way they seemingly and or openly adore thier husband. I've heard many of them speak about their husbands in a way that seems like they adore them. "i'm not easy to deal with, but gosh ___ is so good to me. " etc.. So while it seems like they use them or are really demeaning to them, they also seem to deep down inside adore them. My wife does not at ALL adore me. Not that adoring me would make her behavior ok, but it woudl atleast indicate that she doesnt know how to love me differently. That she truly is in love with me and appreciates me, but sucks at showing it.

Because I dont see this, I am almost certain she doesnt truly love me and appreciate me. And I didnt see this until this year long transformation took place recently.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

To be fair you have the same low standards.


----------



## Blonde

PieceOfSky said:


> I think about that and my girls, who at nearly 15 and 12 have only recently started to see me reject my wife's worst behavior and demand a certain level of decency in our relationship. I worry they have never seen a non-draining, life-affirming, love-based marriage. I wonder what the effects will be if I don't show them that joy and love and healthy fulfilling relationships are possible, or at least that taking determined action to achieve such in one's life is better than the alternative.


I have 4 married children and they have all chosen well- the girls especially well. They were *extremely careful* chosing and were very aware of red flags to avoid based on the rocky M of H and I. 

I am very elated to report (just heard yesterday) that my 19yod broke up with her fundamentalist bf of two years. That relationship was very very scary to me that she was headed for my footsteps of a chronically painful M... She also told me she is going to counseling (provided free to students at her college) and working through her deep feelings of inferiority for being born female.

All that to say, our children can learn from our mistakes and do better.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> Because I dont see this, I am almost certain she doesnt truly love me and appreciate me. And I didnt see this until this year long transformation took place recently.


and vice versa so you are a matched set...

What is "love" BB?

Fiddler on the roof - Do you love me ? (with subtitles) - YouTube


----------



## Zouz

This was old days, it was innocent ...


----------



## Trickster

Inferior for being born female? IMO, women have all the power. Some just don't know that yet.

Like the clip..

When did men start to need validation that their wife loved them? Must be the estrogen in the milk! lol

I will agree that it may not matter all that much what parents do to each other, to a point. Children know what behavior is right or wrong. I think that is what you were saying blonde.

The best thing would be that that our children adopt our good traits and not repeat the bad...

Most parents do what we feel is best for our children.


----------



## MEM2020

So many bad role models. Such a wide net of blame to cast. 

But that's just smoke and mirrors. The truth is quite different. 

A man who was willing to trade quite literally anything (self respect: his wife's respect) to secure her love. 

One day he woke up and realized he'd traded it all away. And not for nothing, oh no. For something far worse than nothing. Contempt. 

Now love can survive many things. Pain, loss, fear, anger. Even neglect and yes, even betrayal. But there is no love that survives contempt. 

Because contempt is not just the opposite of respect, it's the mortal enemy of love.....

So Boston, I leave you to answer the riddle below. Because your actions of the past year show that you know the answer.

What is the enemy of contempt? 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Good suff. Excellent input.
> 
> I don't know why her uncle has given her aunt another chance. Kids are grown (30something) and out of the house. Family had grieved the 3 year breakup and seemed to be doing OK..all relative, but ok. he didnt need her financially. its just something in his head or heart that wanted her to come back. \i can't explain it. My FIL needs his wife financially. He also (and trust me I love him like a father and best friend) is incapable of making decisions. Whatever you say MIL. So while I'm not sure to what degree he truly loves her, and I think he loves her on a strong level, he isnt about to leave the relationship.
> 
> B2 very much has low standards for relationships, but only from the female perspective. Let me clarify... She has some girl friends who have cheated. She frowns upon it, but says "oh well that was then" in response to it. She has a girl friend who broke up with her father's child, but continues to allow him to live there and fix her car and clean the house etc. She has a girl friend who started cheating before her marriage was completely dissolved, it was on its way but not divorced. She has another friend who is a stay at home with 2 kids in school, yet she has groceries delieverd, lawn service etc. My wife doesnt frown much upon these things. I think that she thinks these are normal perfectly ok situations.
> 
> So when B2's husband doesnt roll over and play dead like her friend's husbands, she seems shocked or pouty. The stark difference I see in her girl friends that makes me scratch my head is the way they seemingly and or openly adore thier husband. I've heard many of them speak about their husbands in a way that seems like they adore them. "i'm not easy to deal with, but gosh ___ is so good to me. " etc.. So while it seems like they use them or are really demeaning to them, they also seem to deep down inside adore them. My wife does not at ALL adore me. Not that adoring me would make her behavior ok, but it woudl atleast indicate that she doesnt know how to love me differently. That she truly is in love with me and appreciates me, but sucks at showing it.
> 
> Because I dont see this, I am almost certain she doesnt truly love me and appreciate me. And I didnt see this until this year long transformation took place recently.


----------



## Anon Pink

Blonde said:


> Standing up for a child when the other parent is being neglectful/abusive is not enabling nor looking the other way.
> 
> BB's lack of "love feelings" are not his W's fault and based on BB's descriptions, B3 will be better off if they stay together than the mom having the main custody.


When a little girl grows up with an emotionally absent or distant mother she internalizes it. If she has spunk she acts out. You're watching the makings of a party girl here. If she tends more to quiet and contemplative, your watching the beginnings of a chronic depressive. Of course, these are worst case scenarios and we never can be sure who might provide a ray of light in this child's day. But if it's not Mom able to care for and about her, then Mom needs a monumental wake up, kick in the ass, get it together or get out siren call!

B3 will not be better off if they stay together and B2 is allowed to continue her pathetic existence of face book perfection while ignoring real life! B3's best change to have a good positive maternal influence is when Mom is held accountable now, and everyday! B3's best chance is when the generational dysfunctions are interrupted and Boston stops acting like the long suffering father in law.


----------



## john117

I'm not a philosopher but the enemy of contempt is personal self awareness, self esteem unaffected by unrelated events, and a feel of personal accomplishment.

You can feel anger - it is normal - but contempt implies more than that. And it does not need to be. You have to be strong and act accordingly without letting others' actions influence your view of your self worth.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> When a little girl grows up with an emotionally absent or distant mother she internalizes it. If she has spunk she acts out. You're watching the makings of a party girl here. If she tends more to quiet and contemplative, your watching the beginnings of a chronic depressive.



That's where the other parent has to step in and play BOTH parents. It was an interesting experience and I ended up with one "wild" girl and one "serious" girl. But no serious partying and no depression so....


----------



## MEM2020

John,

There's a reason that your staff collectively love you. 

Yes, it is strength just as you describe below that is the mortal enemy of contempt. 




john117 said:


> I'm not a philosopher but the enemy of contempt is personal self awareness, self esteem unaffected by unrelated events, and a feel of personal accomplishment.
> 
> You can feel anger - it is normal - but contempt implies more than that. And it does not need to be. You have to be strong and act accordingly without letting others' actions influence your view of your self worth.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> and vice versa so you are a matched set...
> 
> What is "love" BB?
> 
> Fiddler on the roof - Do you love me ? (with subtitles) - YouTube


i'm sure theres a joke in here.. which I dont know if I get. but regardless, i think we're sort of the opposite of a matched set.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> So many bad role models. Such a wide net of blame to cast.
> 
> But that's just smoke and mirrors. The truth is quite different.
> 
> A man who was willing to trade quite literally anything (self respect: his wife's respect) to secure her love.
> 
> One day he woke up and realized he'd traded it all away. And not for nothing, oh no. For something far worse than nothing. Contempt.
> 
> Now love can survive many things. Pain, loss, fear, anger. Even neglect and yes, even betrayal. But there is no love that survives contempt.
> 
> Because contempt is not just the opposite of respect, it's the mortal enemy of love.....
> 
> So Boston, I leave you to answer the riddle below. Because your actions of the past year show that you know the answer.
> 
> What is the enemy of contempt?


I honestly did feel like that. Felt like I woke up and wiped the rheum off and saw something I never noticed before. 

Contempt. That is interesting. 2 nights ago, I had a long convo with my brother about some stuff. We are always honest, which makes our bond even easier. I asked him how he felt about B2, like what he thinks of her. "now you know we love her.. but" he began to describe the contempt(didnt use that word but it was to a T) he sees. He said things like "she is nice, she just seems like shes maybe uppity or better than others or us. kinda like her mom". Holy crap I almost swerved off the road. He explained that he only notices it when hes around her, 4 times a year, so he said it might not be a good sample. I asked if he thought my father felt the same way. He said yes, and theyve discussed it. Now mind you, this didnt come after a ***** session on her. In fact we were talking about the Patriots, Bruins, and then school systems. So it was like out of now here I asked. I thought this was really interesting.

As for the enemy. It has to be the ability to control the way you feel without the influence of others. At least this would be the enemy in relation to feeling contempt towards another person. Psych 101. 7 habits of highly effective person. Countless marriage books.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> I'm not a philosopher but the enemy of contempt is personal self awareness, self esteem unaffected by unrelated events, and a feel of personal accomplishment.
> 
> You can feel anger - it is normal - but contempt implies more than that. And it does not need to be. You have to be strong and act accordingly without letting others' actions influence your view of your self worth.


Well said. I wasn't sure exactly how to explain but..exactly.


----------



## john117

I wouldn't let 30 years of corporate leadership training go to waste now would I  they spend hours and ours teaching us this and that - only to have aspiring managers forget it all out of the classroom.

Some people see marriage as a checklist, like the flight attendant's safety briefing before takeoff. Strength is to see the while person behind the checklist, for qualitative evaluation, not numbers. 

The uppity comment earlier is interesting. That's something engrained in people from a young age, not quite as easy to overcome from my experience.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> I wouldn't let 30 years of corporate leadership training go to waste now would I  they spend hours and ours teaching us this and that - only to have aspiring managers forget it all out of the classroom.
> 
> Some people see marriage as a checklist, like the flight attendant's safety briefing before takeoff. Strength is to see the while person behind the checklist, for qualitative evaluation, not numbers.
> 
> The uppity comment earlier is interesting. That's something engrained in people from a young age, not quite as easy to overcome from my experience.


I never saw her as uppity nor did I see her mom like that. But I can see it in some respect. Not in the Gucci bag Lexus driving way, but more in the frown upon things beneath her level. Does that make sense? Her mom frowns upon many weddings we go to because the meal isnt what she would have done. 

Actually, another interesting tidbit that ties is the struggles at work. Both B2 and her mom struggle at work, everyday is a bad day and there is conflict with bosses. For MIL, it is because she is told to do xyz at her job, but essentially drums to her own beat rather than fullfilling expected duties. This angers her bosses (current and past employment), so much so that she is written up. B2 gets mad at work because of the processes. "they do this wrong. and that wrong" etc.. Hey every company has stupid processes and stupid bosses. But for some reason B2 and MIL havent ever enjoyed thier job and constantly feel conflict there. I feel actual stress/conflict that I bring home probably once a year or so. FIL never gets in trouble at work or complains, yet I've heard some of the stuff he goes through there. 

I keep bringing up all these similarities because I honestly feel like someone took off the beer goggles and I'm seeing this puzzle and having an easier time piecing it together.


----------



## john117

My wife is Dr. Uppity personified. Funny you mentioned work. She gets away with a lot because of her experience and education and hard work, but her behavior does annoy people.

Likewise with life's luxuries. Granted, she did grow up with major entitlements a few dictators ago but the sense of entitlement never left her. Anything less than her standard is nekulturny... 

So it is prudent to watch for such behavior and attitude patterns. If you know what you're looking they can be readily identifiable.


----------



## MEM2020

Maybe a different way to frame this is: 

What's the antidote when someone ELSE is expressing contempt for us? 

Strength 

And this has been a year during which Boston has shown a tremendous amount of strength. 

His next mission, should he choose to accept it is to do for B2 what he has done with B3. Because from the sound of it, he's in the process of imprinting this terrific behavioral template on B3. 






BostonBruins32 said:


> I honestly did feel like that. Felt like I woke up and wiped the rheum off and saw something I never noticed before.
> 
> Contempt. That is interesting. 2 nights ago, I had a long convo with my brother about some stuff. We are always honest, which makes our bond even easier. I asked him how he felt about B2, like what he thinks of her. "now you know we love her.. but" he began to describe the contempt(didnt use that word but it was to a T) he sees. He said things like "she is nice, she just seems like shes maybe uppity or better than others or us. kinda like her mom". Holy crap I almost swerved off the road. He explained that he only notices it when hes around her, 4 times a year, so he said it might not be a good sample. I asked if he thought my father felt the same way. He said yes, and theyve discussed it. Now mind you, this didnt come after a ***** session on her. In fact we were talking about the Patriots, Bruins, and then school systems. So it was like out of now here I asked. I thought this was really interesting.
> 
> As for the enemy. It has to be the ability to control the way you feel without the influence of others. At least this would be the enemy in relation to feeling contempt towards another person. Psych 101. 7 habits of highly effective person. Countless marriage books.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> And this has been a year during which Boston has shown a tremendous amount of strength.
> 
> .



If that is the case I should be bench-pressing SUVs... Strength is useful only if the other side considers it important or because of what it brings to them. Otherwise it's up there with eye color in terms of importance.

For some people strength of character does matter but for the type of person we are discussing here strength - or nearly any other non material attribute - is irrelevant. Strength has no street value to them.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> If that is the case I should be bench-pressing SUVs... Strength is useful only if the other side considers it important or because of what it brings to them. Otherwise it's up there with eye color in terms of importance.
> 
> For some people strength of character does matter but for the type of person we are discussing here strength - or nearly any other non material attribute - is irrelevant. Strength has no street value to them.


Yes and no. Strength in this case could take away much of what B2 expects/wants. A stronger man may walk away from this marriage (i could be considered weak or strong for sticking it out for B3, depends on your perspective). This strength would result in devastation for B2 because she would lose much of what she expects and or wants from life/partner. Huge street value in her mind, because she would no longer have a trip to europe or a house to post on facebook. Strength can carry large street value in her eyes to her ranking in life. 

As for the specific traits that make her deeply love me or any man, the street value on those could be out of reach. Meaning either theres nothing I am capable of doing or being to make her love me OR there is nothing external capable of making her truly love a partner. I'm not saying this with certainty, just simply my observation as it stands today. So in that case, any strength I have would have ZERO street value with regards to love.


----------



## Bobby5000

Here are a few suggestions from my perspective. 

1. Work on the marriage as a whole trying to make it better and appreciating her as a person. If she's happy in the marriage, there will be more. 

2. If you make repeated overtures and are turned down, you need to stop, it's not helping but hurting. It shows weakness and lack of desirability, like a restaurant with no customers and a big sign about a special. 

3. Do not talk about sex directly because you will get this answer. I am sorry and its not your problem but mine. I just do not have the interest, perhaps its the family or something else. In any case, it would do neither of us any good for me to just go through the motions. Great, having got that out of the way, I am turned on about getting a new kitchen for about $40,000, some new furniture for the living room. This is why you work 60 hours at a high pressure job, to get your wife these nice things. 

4. Make yourself more attractive and less available. Work out, get a new wardrobe, lose weight if needed. Go out alone perhaps to a class or some other activity. See if there is a way you can be seen in some innocuous way with attractive women or have one call you at the house. I remember in college not having girls particularly interested in me. Got a girlfriend and then her friends (the same ones that previously ignored me) became flirtatious and one made it clear she liked me. Having others like someone increases a woman's desire. 

5. You may get few chances, so when it comes, make sure the sex is good. 

6. if you have the chance, look for a romantic setting, maybe give a backrub. 

7. Again do not make repeated entreaties. Instead try to have the subject come up in another context. She wants to go on a day trip with another couple and you mention, no. After a while you say you are not in the mood, it's me. You want to have sex addressed in the context of the overall marriage. She can't just say, I want a happy marriage where my husband does things I want, but no sex.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Bobby5000 said:


> Here are a few suggestions from my perspective.
> 
> 1. Work on the marriage as a whole trying to make it better and appreciating her as a person. If she's happy in the marriage, there will be more.
> 
> 2. If you make repeated overtures and are turned down, you need to stop, it's not helping but hurting. It shows weakness and lack of desirability, like a restaurant with no customers and a big sign about a special.
> 
> 3. Do not talk about sex directly because you will get this answer. I am sorry and its not your problem but mine. I just do not have the interest, perhaps its the family or something else. In any case, it would do neither of us any good for me to just go through the motions. Great, having got that out of the way, I am turned on about getting a new kitchen for about $40,000, some new furniture for the living room. This is why you work 60 hours at a high pressure job, to get your wife these nice things.
> 
> 4. Make yourself more attractive and less available. Work out, get a new wardrobe, lose weight if needed. Go out alone perhaps to a class or some other activity. See if there is a way you can be seen in some innocuous way with attractive women or have one call you at the house. I remember in college not having girls particularly interested in me. Got a girlfriend and then her friends (the same ones that previously ignored me) became flirtatious and one made it clear she liked me. Having others like someone increases a woman's desire.
> 
> 5. You may get few chances, so when it comes, make sure the sex is good.
> 
> 6. if you have the chance, look for a romantic setting, maybe give a backrub.
> 
> 7. Again do not make repeated entreaties. Instead try to have the subject come up in another context. She wants to go on a day trip with another couple and you mention, no. After a while you say you are not in the mood, it's me. You want to have sex addressed in the context of the overall marriage. She can't just say, I want a happy marriage where my husband does things I want, but no sex.


Thanks for the help bobby. I think you are about 9 months late to this thread. Thanks for the efforts though.


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> Meaning either theres nothing I am capable of doing or being to make her love me OR there is nothing external capable of making her truly love a partner. I'm not saying this with certainty, just simply my observation as it stands today. So in that case, any strength I have would have ZERO street value with regards to love.


So, she needs and/or wants a husband, a child (maybe two), a nice house, nice car, copious amounts of leisure time, and she wants to spend a disproportionate amount of that leisure time showing others what she has? Rather than enjoying what she has? And, as a result, maybe there's really no room for love in her life? That doesn't sound all that far-fetched, from my perspective. And I think you've articulated your own challenge pretty darn well. Stay, because you are strong. or leave, because you are strong. 

It's the year-ago need for "space" that still seems strange, whenever I review what you've gone through. "Space" didn't give her a house, car, husband with the second highest salary in her world to brag about, right? Perhaps that was a point where she was really wondering what she wanted. If the current BB was around then, would the two of you have been a better match?

I don't have the Facebook issues, but how my wife believes others perceive her is an ongoing issue. It's her issue, but it impacts our marriage.


----------



## BostonBruins32

1812overture said:


> So, she needs and/or wants a husband, a child (maybe two), a nice house, nice car, copious amounts of leisure time, and she wants to spend a disproportionate amount of that leisure time showing others what she has? Rather than enjoying what she has? And, as a result, maybe there's really no room for love in her life? That doesn't sound all that far-fetched, from my perspective. And I think you've articulated your own challenge pretty darn well. Stay, because you are strong. or leave, because you are strong.
> 
> It's the year-ago need for "space" that still seems strange, whenever I review what you've gone through. "Space" didn't give her a house, car, husband with the second highest salary in her world to brag about, right? Perhaps that was a point where she was really wondering what she wanted. If the current BB was around then, would the two of you have been a better match?
> 
> I don't have the Facebook issues, but how my wife believes others perceive her is an ongoing issue. It's her issue, but it impacts our marriage.


She did describe it as sort of wondering what she wanted. She wanted to be a stay at home, but wanted to work. And I know being a stay at home mom and tighter on money made her nuts. I also still think she was semi interested in someone else but wasnt sure what to do. The unfortunate thing is that the financial/social benefit of staying with me outweighed other options. And I don't even think it was a close outweighing, which means she "had" to remain with me. 

In my opinion, that is a sh*tty reason to "win her back". Had her other options been of higher quality, I think it would have been a more honest test of where her heart is. 

To be very honest, and I've been transparent with everyone on this thread and with B2 about this, the "space" one year ago is really the biggest hurdle I have right now. Her facebook binging triggers me back to those days right before and after her "space". To this day, my stomach turns when she pulls out and stays on her phone for a 30 minute drive to Target. My brain skips right to her messaging exbf and treeman. She could be reading pinterst or huffpost, but my heart reverts me right back to the messaging I saw when snooping. 

Either way, you nailed it. She doesnt enjoy living in the moment, but rather broadcasting the moment on social media. 

Tough weekend. We went to a wedding for which B3 was in, as well as my wife. It was fun to dance with and play with B3 during the wedding. But the whole meaning and feeling of a wedding just made me feel isolated. Like I no longer believed in it or wanted it. And while it could be temporary, the sensation and dislike of the institution of a relationship feels deep in my core/gut. I believed so much in marriage and relationships 5-10 years ago. Now it just makes my stomach turn. 

2 highlights:
-At one point during the reception, her best friend joked "after a few malibus, B2 said she's doing to be giving you the business at the hotel" wacka wacka. And thats just it. House, child, SUV, fruitful sexual life, white fence. Oh yeah, that B2 is just a sex fiend. (ive heard comments similar from this friend before)
-the bride(B2s best friend) intercepted B3 while I was having a talk with her during a melt down. Essentially she had a melt down because I wouldnt let her go play near some stairs. So I was talking her out of crying while she was sitting on my knee. The friend came over and picked her up and said come with me we'll go see mom. I had to bite my tongue, as it was the bride and I didnt want to get anything going..

Its not the end of the world, but its part of why B3 will sometimes play good cop bad cop with me and B2. 

OK enough.

Sorry for the rant all!


----------



## MEM2020

1812,

First paragraph sums up the situation better than anything I have seen on this thread. 

As for her departure, that was the desperate act of a woman who felt smothered. So much so that she was beginning to think about starting all over.....

At that point in time, Boston's low key (but equally desperate) attempts to create more intimacy were having the opposite of the effect that he was striving for....




QUOTE=1812overture;10777450]So, she needs and/or wants a husband, a child (maybe two), a nice house, nice car, copious amounts of leisure time, and she wants to spend a disproportionate amount of that leisure time showing others what she has? Rather than enjoying what she has? And, as a result, maybe there's really no room for love in her life? That doesn't sound all that far-fetched, from my perspective. And I think you've articulated your own challenge pretty darn well. Stay, because you are strong. or leave, because you are strong. 

It's the year-ago need for "space" that still seems strange, whenever I review what you've gone through. "Space" didn't give her a house, car, husband with the second highest salary in her world to brag about, right? Perhaps that was a point where she was really wondering what she wanted. If the current BB was around then, would the two of you have been a better match?

I don't have the Facebook issues, but how my wife believes others perceive her is an ongoing issue. It's her issue, but it impacts our marriage.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

When you go to Target, are you driving? 

If she is just using you as her driver so she can play on her phone, why do you go? 






BostonBruins32 said:


> She did describe it as sort of wondering what she wanted. She wanted to be a stay at home, but wanted to work. And I know being a stay at home mom and tighter on money made her nuts. I also still think she was semi interested in someone else but wasnt sure what to do. The unfortunate thing is that the financial/social benefit of staying with me outweighed other options. And I don't even think it was a close outweighing, which means she "had" to remain with me.
> 
> In my opinion, that is a sh*tty reason to "win her back". Had her other options been of higher quality, I think it would have been a more honest test of where her heart is.
> 
> To be very honest, and I've been transparent with everyone on this thread and with B2 about this, the "space" one year ago is really the biggest hurdle I have right now. Her facebook binging triggers me back to those days right before and after her "space". To this day, my stomach turns when she pulls out and stays on her phone for a 30 minute drive to Target. My brain skips right to her messaging exbf and treeman. She could be reading pinterst or huffpost, but my heart reverts me right back to the messaging I saw when snooping.
> 
> Either way, you nailed it. She doesnt enjoy living in the moment, but rather broadcasting the moment on social media.
> 
> Tough weekend. We went to a wedding for which B3 was in, as well as my wife. It was fun to dance with and play with B3 during the wedding. But the whole meaning and feeling of a wedding just made me feel isolated. Like I no longer believed in it or wanted it. And while it could be temporary, the sensation and dislike of the institution of a relationship feels deep in my core/gut. I believed so much in marriage and relationships 5-10 years ago. Now it just makes my stomach turn.
> 
> 2 highlights:
> -At one point during the reception, her best friend joked "after a few malibus, B2 said she's doing to be giving you the business at the hotel" wacka wacka. And thats just it. House, child, SUV, fruitful sexual life, white fence. Oh yeah, that B2 is just a sex fiend. (ive heard comments similar from this friend before)
> -the bride(B2s best friend) intercepted B3 while I was having a talk with her during a melt down. Essentially she had a melt down because I wouldnt let her go play near some stairs. So I was talking her out of crying while she was sitting on my knee. The friend came over and picked her up and said come with me we'll go see mom. I had to bite my tongue, as it was the bride and I didnt want to get anything going..
> 
> Its not the end of the world, but its part of why B3 will sometimes play good cop bad cop with me and B2.
> 
> OK enough.
> 
> Sorry for the rant all!


----------



## BostonBruins32

Target was an example. Could be anything. Going to her family's house, my family's house, to dinner, to a friends, to target, etc.. 

My point is that she is glued to it. Remember, at night she will sometimes begin to log heavy hours on her ipad even before B3 goes to bed. After I put b3 down, sometimes I come down and B2 is now on hour 2 of the ipad. At this point I will often tell her I'm going for a jog or tell her I'm heading to xyz. It's likely just me feeling triggered, but I can't just sit and watch tv or wind down next to her as shes pounding away 3-4 hours on an ipad. 

To be fair, what do i expect? undivided attention? no. I think its just more that the ipad usage rubs me the wrong way (again because of what went on last year). Reiterating that I am taking ownership of these feelings. It is my personal struggle, not hers. 

And so what have I learned? The best thing on earth for these times is being busy. And the second best thing is feeling tired or drained. Work drains me, B3 drains me, working out drains me. Sometime aroune 10pm I feel depleted, which is perfect. 





MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> 
> When you go to Target, are you driving?
> 
> If she is just using you as her driver so she can play on her phone, why do you go?


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

I strongly believe that attention/focus are core to a healthy marital dynamic. 

I generally don't do 'divided attention'. 

This blended model of Ipad/conversing is something I don't indulge. 

M2 can spend as much or as little time as she wishes talking or Ipadding. She simply knows not to mix the two. 

That said, you recently got some good advice. Don't indulge B2's competitive PR games by posing for pictures in situations where she isn't really engaged. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Target was an example. Could be anything. Going to her family's house, my family's house, to dinner, to a friends, to target, etc..
> 
> My point is that she is glued to it. Remember, at night she will sometimes begin to log heavy hours on her ipad even before B3 goes to bed. After I put b3 down, sometimes I come down and B2 is now on hour 2 of the ipad. At this point I will often tell her I'm going for a jog or tell her I'm heading to xyz. It's likely just me feeling triggered, but I can't just sit and watch tv or wind down next to her as shes pounding away 3-4 hours on an ipad.
> 
> To be fair, what do i expect? undivided attention? no. I think its just more that the ipad usage rubs me the wrong way (again because of what went on last year). Reiterating that I am taking ownership of these feelings. It is my personal struggle, not hers.
> 
> And so what have I learned? The best thing on earth for these times is being busy. And the second best thing is feeling tired or drained. Work drains me, B3 drains me, working out drains me. Sometime aroune 10pm I feel depleted, which is perfect.


----------



## farsidejunky

BB:

Why do you even tell her where you are going?

Just do it.


----------



## In Absentia

farsidejunky said:


> BB:
> 
> Why do you even tell her where you are going?
> 
> Just do it.


yep... sometimes I just wonder why I bother too...


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



In Absentia said:


> yep... sometimes I just wonder why I bother too...


I think it would make her wonder. Just a small hint of destabilization.


----------



## Zouz

Hi Boston ,

I didn't hear her story ,I just heard yours; I am not gonna generalize about this lovely creature called " an LD wife".

I have years and years with it ; and now I am in the phase of "scheduled duty ".

Assuming that what you are saying in your threads is true (I am not attacking , but just for the benefit of the doubt ) ;and taking into consideration that you are staying because u love your daughter ( Though I advise you to throw the towel and even burn it , you shouldn't end up like me 20 yrs of wonderfull marriage with 3 kids;

then You will go through the following phases in this sexless marriage :


-Turbulence mode ; like up and down and waiting for Godot (I think you already passed it ). 

-Gamma Mode : It is the period you are currently in , fed up ; angry but you try to convince yourself that there could be a hope .

-Safe mode : similar to windows safe mode , where trying to have time with her on a certain frequency bases to get thing done the way they should be .(i am in this mode : http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-long-can-you-mean-how-long-can-she-last.html)

-Open Marriage / separation .

-Divorce .

or you will stay living like a robot and humulated like ....


----------



## 1812overture

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> 
> I strongly believe that attention/focus are core to a healthy marital dynamic.
> 
> I generally don't do 'divided attention'.
> 
> This blended model of Ipad/conversing is something I don't indulge.
> 
> M2 can spend as much or as little time as she wishes talking or Ipadding. She simply knows not to mix the two.
> 
> That said, you recently got some good advice. Don't indulge B2's competitive PR games by posing for pictures in situations where she isn't really engaged.


Now, that's a decent topic for another thread -- anyone know if one exists? If not, where should I start it? The topic seems to be "defining quality time" or something like that.



> Either way, you nailed it. She doesn't enjoy living in the moment, but rather broadcasting the moment on social media.


 Sorry to have nailed it. But (since some seem to be addressing last year's problems) "living in the moment" is, I think, tough for many. My problem used to be some combination of jealousy/envy/regret/almost bordering on anger when I saw neighbors who "had" what I thought I wanted/deserved. I've worked on that (as it seems you have, Boston), to the point that I understand the rich guy who flies his family to Aspen in December works so hard that he never makes it to his kids' soccer games, let alone gets to coach them. If he's happy, good for him. My priorities are different.

That may be more of an issue, now, for your wife than you. You should feel comfortable taking a moment, how ever often you want to, to be satisfied how you've adjusted YOUR view of life.


----------



## john117

Divided attention is reality in this day and age. If you can devote blocks of time to a single non critical activity you're either retired, stranded on an island, in a corrective facility , or similar

(Watching software being loaded to my demo unit as we speak )


----------



## MEM2020

In my personal life: 

Dinner time - no phones 
Walking the dogs - no phones
Walking w/out the dogs - no phones

Having sex - neither of us has ever been into phone sex....


If you are a doctor on call, or if you are officially on call for your job, that's one thing. 

I completely reject the modern notion that any interrupt is worthy of disrupting the current flow of activity. 




john117 said:


> Divided attention is reality in this day and age. If you can devote blocks of time to a single non critical activity you're either retired, stranded on an island, in a corrective facility , or similar
> 
> (Watching software being loaded to my demo unit as we speak )


----------



## john117

a few things in my life are single thread but most are not. The human brain is capable of phenomenal multitasking... 

ADHD is your friend


----------



## MEM2020

Multitasking is the enemy of intimacy. 




john117 said:


> a few things in my life are single thread but most are not. The human brain is capable of phenomenal multitasking...
> 
> ADHD is your friend


----------



## john117

There are times where it's inappropriate but not always. If the expectation for quality time between spouses is to sit on tatami mats and gaze into each other's eyes for an hour or two a day.... Drinking tea and connecting yoga style etc.... Then we are talking major disconnect from reality in my opinion.


----------



## john117

Duplicate post


----------



## BostonBruins32

Interesting article that 100% hit home. Except this guy was hysterical, which I never got to. The part about self worth and self value totally jives with my perception of myself. On the one hand, I honestly think this relationship is in jeopardy, as the woman is very likely to feel this again and will have to be successful again in combatting the urge. 

The guys response, this article, is interesting because on one hand he almost takes blame for feeling upset about his wife being obsessed or nearly cheating with someone else. 

This really struck a cord. I've expressed this before, but I think part of my issue in my marriage is that I have had a low self worth (not worthy of being loved) and a ****ty level of respect for myself. Some of the actions that B2 does or doesnt do really feed the inner beast of feelings I have about myself. So if you think about it, for the longest time I didnt feel like I could be loved for who I am (to which I become fitness obsessed and hyper career driven). My longstanding thought is/was B2 would not love me if I became mediocre in those two aspects, as my personality and character inside wasnt worthy. I've actually extrapolated that out to all women, meaning I still struggle to imagine any woman (other than my mom i guess) could truly love me for who I am. 

Things like my wife building a sneaky connection with treeman, telling her ex she misses him, lying to me about talking to ex, rejections for sex, unwillingness to go for mexican food, heavy criticism on my parenting, etc .. have made me believe what I deeply always thought of myself, I am unloveable. These things arent things you do or dont do to someone you love. And to correct these things, I really tried to do more/be better/kissmoreass, etc.. Which backfired. 

anyways, I just thought I'd share. I've been kind of down for a few days so i guess I've been reading more doom and gloom articles 

My Wife Told Me She Wants to Cheat: Here's How I Feel -


----------



## In Absentia

BostonBruins32 said:


> Interesting article that 100% hit home. Except this guy was hysterical, which I never got to. The part about self worth and self value totally jives with my perception of myself. On the one hand, I honestly think this relationship is in jeopardy, as the woman is very likely to feel this again and will have to be successful again in combatting the urge.
> 
> The guys response, this article, is interesting because on one hand he almost takes blame for feeling upset about his wife being obsessed or nearly cheating with someone else.
> 
> This really struck a cord. I've expressed this before, but I think part of my issue in my marriage is that I have had a low self worth (not worthy of being loved) and a ****ty level of respect for myself. Some of the actions that B2 does or doesnt do really feed the inner beast of feelings I have about myself. So if you think about it, for the longest time I didnt feel like I could be loved for who I am (to which I become fitness obsessed and hyper career driven). My longstanding thought is/was B2 would not love me if I became mediocre in those two aspects, as my personality and character inside wasnt worthy. I've actually extrapolated that out to all women, meaning I still struggle to imagine any woman (other than my mom i guess) could truly love me for who I am.
> 
> Things like my wife building a sneaky connection with treeman, telling her ex she misses him, lying to me about talking to ex, rejections for sex, unwillingness to go for mexican food, heavy criticism on my parenting, etc .. have made me believe what I deeply always thought of myself, I am unloveable. These things arent things you do or dont do to someone you love. And to correct these things, I really tried to do more/be better/kissmoreass, etc.. Which backfired.
> 
> anyways, I just thought I'd share. I've been kind of down for a few days so i guess I've been reading more doom and gloom articles
> 
> My Wife Told Me She Wants to Cheat: Here's How I Feel -


what kind of parents did you have? Were they cold towards you? Or were they the loving kind?

My parents - especially my mother - were kind of unable to give love. They would give me material stuff, when I just wanted my hand held tight, or a hug.

I guess you are always looking for what you know in life. And I picked a woman who doesn't really know how to express love. So, my search for love and affection continues...


----------



## BostonBruins32

In Absentia said:


> what kind of parents did you have? Were they cold towards you? Or were they the loving kind?
> 
> My parents - especially my mother - were kind of unable to give love. They would give me material stuff, when I just wanted my hand held tight, or a hug.
> 
> I guess you are always looking for what you know in life. And I picked a woman who doesn't really know how to express love. So, my search for love and affection continues...


Parents are divorced. My mother showed love, but had a few partners come in and out of our life, most of which we werent fond of(and understandably never showed me love). My father had some issues (alcoholism). Never violent or anything but was consumed in his own life, thus I've never really felt he REALLY cared that much. I smoked a lot of this out in marriage counseling. This is why I see a lot of ownership in my feelings. I wanted so much for my marriage to help me feel loved. The MC and my wife very clearly outlined that its not B2's problem, but instead my own.

I do not feel loved in my marriage. And I'm grappling with whether or not this is solely my issue or OUR issue (B2 and me). Some of the things I've listed in this whole thread not only dont show love, they show the opposite of love from my wife (contempt as MEM explained). It just hurts. And this article really helped remind me about some of the deep pain I've felt and still harbor.


----------



## In Absentia

BostonBruins32 said:


> Parents are divorced. My mother showed love, but had a few partners come in and out of our life, most of which we werent fond of(and understandably never showed me love). My father had some issues (alcoholism). Never violent or anything but was consumed in his own life, thus I've never really felt he REALLY cared that much. I smoked a lot of this out in marriage counseling. This is why I see a lot of ownership in my feelings. I wanted so much for my marriage to help me feel loved. The MC and my wife very clearly outlined that its not B2's problem, but instead my own.
> 
> I do not feel loved in my marriage. And I'm grappling with whether or not this is solely my issue or OUR issue (B2 and me). Some of the things I've listed in this whole thread not only dont show love, they show the opposite of love from my wife (contempt as MEM explained). It just hurts. And this article really helped remind me about some of the deep pain I've felt and still harbor.



There is nothing wrong with wanting to be loved. It's just normal. On the other hand, if you come across as a bit "desperate", that's a major turn-of. I don't think I did. I don't feel loved in my marriage either. In fact, in hindsight, I don't think I ever felt loved, or loved enough. 

Maybe we give off these vibes. My wife is the opposite. She is content in her own little world. Doesn't like to feel "hounded". I'd love that! 

Jokes apart, you can't blame yourself and your need to be loved for the state of your marriage. As I said, there's nothing wrong with that.


----------



## MEM2020

B,
You have come an incredible distance in one year. 

I have a little news flash for your W and your therapist. 

If it's not your wife's job to make you feel loved, why would you bother staying with her when B3 leaves for college? 

BTW: if you reverse that statement it is every bit as ludicrous. 

Meaning, if you were to say that it isn't your job to make B2 feel loved. 

That said, I do think your intense desire (need) to be loved might have been the single most destructive part of your marital dynamic. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Parents are divorced. My mother showed love, but had a few partners come in and out of our life, most of which we werent fond of(and understandably never showed me love). My father had some issues (alcoholism). Never violent or anything but was consumed in his own life, thus I've never really felt he REALLY cared that much. I smoked a lot of this out in marriage counseling. This is why I see a lot of ownership in my feelings. I wanted so much for my marriage to help me feel loved. The MC and my wife very clearly outlined that its not B2's problem, but instead my own.
> 
> I do not feel loved in my marriage. And I'm grappling with whether or not this is solely my issue or OUR issue (B2 and me). Some of the things I've listed in this whole thread not only dont show love, they show the opposite of love from my wife (contempt as MEM explained). It just hurts. And this article really helped remind me about some of the deep pain I've felt and still harbor.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Totally agree mem. That's why I take heavy responsibility here . My best days are when I watch b3 succeed at someyhibg g or when I complete a task that was emotionally or physically draining and provides a sense of accomplishment . I feel love through b3s daily being or interaction . On days when I need to ralk or feel depressed , I struggle because I don't know who to confide in. After I confide in my brother or a friend I feel better. 

I've done well desensitizing myself, but I still have moments. I fully appreciate that my expectations for love are off.


----------



## 1812overture

BostonBruins32 said:


> My best days are when I watch b3 succeed at someyhibg g or when I complete a task that was emotionally or physically draining and provides a sense of accomplishment .


It would be better, though, wouldn't it, if your spouse understood your sense of accomplishment and encouraged you to feel good about yourself? And, perhaps, even felt good herself because of what you accomplished? Even if it's just a little bit better. For me, at least, I thought that was part of the point of getting married. To share in each others success. It can get very tricky with male/female relationships (I speak from middle class suburbia in the US), but a valued, valuable marriage ought to transcend that, even it can't always keep it at bay.




> On days when I need to ralk or feel depressed , I struggle because I don't know who to confide in. After I confide in my brother or a friend I feel better.
> 
> I've done well desensitizing myself, but I still have moments. I fully appreciate that my expectations for love are off.


I'm not sure they are. Think back to, what, high school? Wasn't it pleasing if a GF showed up for a game, performance, award ceremony just because you were in it? To root for you, cheer for you, feel good for you? I remember doing the opposite. (I also remember failing to do it for my wife, and her failing to do it for me.) 

I don't know that the complexity of life has to change the small, but important, pleasures from when life was simpler.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

Is B2 still lashng out at you on a regular basis? 

Does she do so more, less or at about the same frequency that she lashes out at her mom and B3?

A different way to frame this question is:
- how much of your disappointment with B2 is caused by the presence of overtly hostile behavior?
And
- how much is caused by the absence of loving behavior?

You could compress this to:
- abuse 
- neglect 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Totally agree mem. That's why I take heavy responsibility here . My best days are when I watch b3 succeed at someyhibg g or when I complete a task that was emotionally or physically draining and provides a sense of accomplishment . I feel love through b3s daily being or interaction . On days when I need to ralk or feel depressed , I struggle because I don't know who to confide in. After I confide in my brother or a friend I feel better.
> 
> I've done well desensitizing myself, but I still have moments. I fully appreciate that my expectations for love are off.


----------



## Blonde

BB, I think you need to be careful. Could you be projecting? You have admitted in this thread that you don't feel love for your W.

In the wedding vows, we promise to love and cherish our partner. The vows are about what we will GIVE, not what we will GET.

There's good rationale for that, human nature being what it is...

I am glad you have your brother and friend when you need to talk. I have a lot of EN's met through girlfriends.


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> In the wedding vows, we promise to love and cherish our partner. The vows are about what we will GIVE, not what we will GET.
> 
> .



Since wedding vows are symmetrical it's not an unreasonable expectation to get value in the same ballpark as we give in a marriage. 

I don't remember the justice of the peace dude reading me a textbook's worth of me giving and reading my wife a Post It note's worth of her giving..,


----------



## BostonBruins32

Mem I get less heat than b3. I still get ( a tick more recently) heat from b2 on parenting. It's more undercutting.. To the point where b3 will often ask me , then mom if she doesn't like the answer. The neglect is more painful. Meaning unwillingness to do things to show love, other than facebook posts. 

Blonde you are right. I've hung too much out there. So much so i almost made her leave last year. I've pulled back.which is good. But oddly enough she calls me on way home if I am 20 mins out of normal time. She wants to tag along with errands.. It's like she wantse in sight, but because she wants to love. More just for knowledge or something if where I am. I don't quite get it. I still get THAT look if I have a night with friends without her. Which confuses me.. Wouldn't she be happy I'm not pestering her ? Free alone time on ipad. .. Feels like it wouldbe a dream scenario for her. . Yes blonde I may be projecting. I have no idea what I should expect really.


----------



## BostonBruins32

She wants me in sight.. But not out of love.. That's what I meant.. Silly I phone


----------



## john117

BostonBruins32 said:


> She wants me in sight.. But not out of love.. That's what I meant.. Silly I phone



My kids had a game to guess when mom would get anxiety and call if we were running late for errands. Priceless.


----------



## MEM2020

You are still letting B2 treat you badly. 

Not AS badly. But badly. 

If M2 was semi checked out of parenting AND contradicting my parenting calls with a 4 year old, she would hear this:
1. Don't undercut me with our child 
2. Do NOT even think about undercutting me when you aren't even in the game. Either turn off the ipad and get IN the game as a parent, or stay on the sidelines and don't interfere. 

As for runnng errands. Why go if she isn't highly engaged with you? 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Mem I get less heat than b3. I still get ( a tick more recently) heat from b2 on parenting. It's more undercutting.. To the point where b3 will often ask me , then mom if she doesn't like the answer. The neglect is more painful. Meaning unwillingness to do things to show love, other than facebook posts.
> 
> Blonde you are right. I've hung too much out there. So much so i almost made her leave last year. I've pulled back.which is good. But oddly enough she calls me on way home if I am 20 mins out of normal time. She wants to tag along with errands.. It's like she wantse in sight, but because she wants to love. More just for knowledge or something if where I am. I don't quite get it. I still get THAT look if I have a night with friends without her. Which confuses me.. Wouldn't she be happy I'm not pestering her ? Free alone time on ipad. .. Feels like it wouldbe a dream scenario for her. . Yes blonde I may be projecting. I have no idea what I should expect really.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> You are still letting B2 treat you badly.
> 
> Not AS badly. But badly.
> 
> If M2 was semi checked out of parenting AND contradicting my parenting calls with a 4 year old, she would hear this:
> 1. Don't undercut me with our child
> 2. Do NOT even think about undercutting me when you aren't even in the game. Either turn off the ipad and get IN the game as a parent, or stay on the sidelines and don't interfere.
> 
> As for runnng errands. Why go if she isn't highly engaged with you?


Mem. 
thats almost verbatum my response.

I literally said to her last night, "please don't undercut me when you werent in here while B3 was ___. you're busy on your ipad and I'm trying to put out a fire. if you were in here with us it would be different."

literally. 

she got mad. cool. still not my bad.


----------



## MEM2020

Excellent reactive management of bad behavior.

I've found it effective to calmly tell M2 what I expect from her going forward. 

I don't make it about me. I just say: Good parenting requires alignment. Here's what I need you to do when X happens. That's for the good of our child. It isn't about me. 

You also need to consider the use of consequences when B2 continues to engage in broken patterns. 

For instance, you could start cooking/picking up Mexican at a much higher frequency. 

Just as you could ramp up your socializing to twice a week. And you could go visit your parents - by yourself - the next time B2 schedules a visit to her folks. 

B2 will respond to edge that is firmly applied when she violates boundaries. 

She doesn't have a healthy fear of you. And she needs to. Not a physical fear. An emotional fear of being sharply deprioritized. 



QUOTE=BostonBruins32;10810458]Mem. 
thats almost verbatum my response.

I literally said to her last night, "please don't undercut me when you werent in here while B3 was ___. you're busy on your ipad and I'm trying to put out a fire. if you were in here with us it would be different."

literally. 

she got mad. cool. still not my bad.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

Yet if she gets deprioritized you stand the "risk" of "validating" her beliefs about you...

Confront her early and often - at least she knows where you stand and you know where she stands. Leave the mind games to the Jedi.


----------



## In Absentia

well, she is going to get mad at the beginning... but if you are consistent, she will eventually get it... hopefully...


----------



## BostonBruins32

I confront her. I just dont have time for a long drawn out dialogue over it (as I used to do). Now its short and sweet and I move on. 

Its hard to put my finger on, but I feel the parenting criticisms and the ipad/phone usage is up a tick in the recent few weeks.

Could be nothing. Or MEM may have called this one (those around here may remember Oct/Nov was the baby making time in her opinion a long while ago. Oddly enough, she hasnt been more sexual either, which I expected a change right around now (desire to procreate)


----------



## MEM2020

Repeated, patterned Confrontation without consequence is actually destructive. It creates the belief that your words have no weight to them.

The funny thing - it's so easy to inflict consequence on a narcissist. 

They have no idea how to handle it when you blow off the visit to their parents. 

And even worse, when you reverse the polarity of the discussion and say: hey, you have this backwards. It's not a case of me not going with you to your folks house. This is a case of you not coming to my folks. 

And no - that's not some mind trick. People know when they are being shut down. You just have to be totally clear about the WHY. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> I confront her. I just dont have time for a long drawn out dialogue over it (as I used to do). Now its short and sweet and I move on.
> 
> Its hard to put my finger on, but I feel the parenting criticisms and the ipad/phone usage is up a tick in the recent few weeks.
> 
> Could be nothing. Or MEM may have called this one (those around here may remember Oct/Nov was the baby making time in her opinion a long while ago. Oddly enough, she hasnt been more sexual either, which I expected a change right around now (desire to procreate)


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
I consider brevity an art form.

For example, in your shoes I would go with: 

Boston: Stop trying to compensate for a lack of parental engagement by playing 'good cop' with B3. It's lazy of you and destructive to her. 

And if I got a dishonest and hostile response I would add:

Make no mistake, I'll 
(let you leave) or (fight you every step of the way) 
rather than sit idly by while you sabotage B3. Because the truth is, she's the ONLY reason I'm still here. 

--------
Boston, 
You and I differ by barely one standard deviation in terms of playing a strong reactive defense vs an assertive proactive offense. But that difference can be the sole basis for reaching a good outcome. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> I confront her. I just dont have time for a long drawn out dialogue over it (as I used to do). Now its short and sweet and I move on.
> 
> Its hard to put my finger on, but I feel the parenting criticisms and the ipad/phone usage is up a tick in the recent few weeks.
> 
> Could be nothing. Or MEM may have called this one (those around here may remember Oct/Nov was the baby making time in her opinion a long while ago. Oddly enough, she hasnt been more sexual either, which I expected a change right around now (desire to procreate)


----------



## john117

Kids know who the good parent is and who the bum parent is. Such an exchange as the one depicted above will be largely superfluous.

Assuming the family sticks together for another decade, when B3 is a teen she will know first hand what has transcribed between the parents...


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> You also need to consider the use of consequences when B2 continues to engage in broken patterns.
> 
> For instance, you could start cooking/picking up Mexican at a much higher frequency.
> 
> Just as you could ramp up your socializing to twice a week. And you could go visit your parents - by yourself - the next time B2 schedules a visit to her folks.
> 
> B2 will respond to edge that is firmly applied when she violates boundaries.


What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So we have both detaching.



BostonBruins32 said:


> Its hard to put my finger on, but I feel the parenting criticisms and the ipad/phone usage is up a tick in the recent few weeks.


In may ways I hold my H at emotional arm's length chronically. It's not a manipulative tactic to get him to "like" me or have more or less sex. It's more the history of being hurt in various ways. I protect myself.

I rather like my alone time when he travels for work. Not sure if our marriage could survive him being at home all the time?


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> Some of the things I've listed in this whole thread not only dont show love, they show the opposite of love from my wife (contempt as MEM explained). It just hurts. And this article really helped remind me about some of the deep pain I've felt and still harbor.


Punishing her with tit for tat as Mem seems to suggest is not a good solution IMO.



Mem said:


> You also need to consider the use of consequences when B2 continues to engage in broken patterns.
> 
> For instance, you could start cooking/picking up Mexican at a much higher frequency.
> 
> Just as you could ramp up your socializing to twice a week. And you could go visit your parents - by yourself - the next time B2 schedules a visit to her folks.


^^strikes me as paternalistic, mean, vengeful, retaliatory, and petty...

If I was at the receiving end of that, might make me think about greener pastures...


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Blonde said:


> Punishing her with tit for tat as Mem seems to suggest is not a good solution IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^strikes me as paternalistic, mean, vengeful, retaliatory, and petty...
> 
> 
> 
> If I was at the receiving end of that, might make me think about greener pastures...



His wife leaving for greener pastures would be the best thing to ever happen for him. He doesn't have the stones to go but if she left the result would be the same.


----------



## Blonde

It might be the best thing for her too. She is an unloved woman as it stands. Maybe she could find someone who loves her and the child? If she was here, I'd tell her so.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

It would definitely be the best for them both. Bb is not doing anyone any favors by staying.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> It might be the best thing for her too. She is an unloved woman as it stands. Maybe she could find someone who loves her and the child? If she was here, I'd tell her so.


Sometimes I just assume you're joking with me Blonde. That or you only read about 2% of the thread. Either way, thanks for the constructive feedback.


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> It might be the best thing for her too. She is an unloved woman as it stands. Maybe she could find someone who loves her and the child? If she was here, I'd tell her so.



She has the option to "love" the father of her child but chooses not to in favor of some idealized person... 

Maybe I'm too childish but I go the extra mile to make sure J2 feels "unloved". Reciprocity is a b!tch.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
This isn't childish, it's authentic. It conveys in a raw and unmistakable manner, how you feel about your W. 

And that's going to be the main reason you aren't paralyzed by guilt when your youngest finishes her undergraduate degree. 

Words are good for clarity. They are utterly invaluable in that way. 

The thing is, for hundreds of thousands of generations, we used tone, body language and resource sharing to influence / control each other's behavior. 

---------
Here's what I absolutely LOVE about TAM. 

I have read numerous stories that go like this:

Every few months my H would have a total melt down about our lack of sex. But in between he was nice, friendly and generous. And every year he would take the family on a nice vacation. 

Because of this, I really believed that we had a solid marriage. 


------------
My interpretation of these stories is NOT that they illustrate:
- malice or
- sociopath type issues

------------
Instead, I believe that they reflect a very basic truth. 99 percent of our DNA is tuned to non verbal behavior because 99 percent of our evolution occurred prior to the mutation enabling modern speech. 

So when you say X, but do an awful lot of 'not X', the weighting of those two messages isn't 50-50. It's much closer to 90-10 or 99-1. 






john117 said:


> She has the option to "love" the father of her child but chooses not to in favor of some idealized person...
> 
> Maybe I'm too childish but I go the extra mile to make sure J2 feels "unloved". Reciprocity is a b!tch.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> Sometimes I just assume you're joking with me Blonde. That or you only read about 2% of the thread. Either way, thanks for the constructive feedback.


I read (almost) 100% of your thread. Sometimes I identify deeply with you... I had a REALLY hard time at my 22yod wedding in Sept because of my cynicism about M and all the idealistic clap trap @ a wedding. 

And sometimes I identify deeply with your W. She wants more children. You don't, And you have admitted you don't love her. She might as well find someone who can while she is still young enough to have more children.

She can feeeeeeel that you don't love her. If I was her, I suppose I might bury myself in the ipad too.... Two can play the detachment game.

I did make H a video for our 32nd but hate the vulnerability of doing so...


----------



## farsidejunky

Blonde:

I understand how you could see this. But this is a bit of projection, no? 

BB's wife was absent long before he began detachment.


----------



## john117

Blonde, could you please provide a Google Maps reference point with the fountain of youth you're using? Mine doesn't seem to be working all that well 

In general, it takes two to mess up a relationship. I know what I'm doing wrong, but the thing is, even if I was doing everything 100% right, the outcome in the relationship would be marginally better at best because the other side ain't doing her part.

It's too much of a one sided situation to change by mutual agreement and cooperation. I'm not going to put 95% of the effort to see 5% improvement.

If Boston sees it that way also it's a stalemate for him as it is for me.


----------



## Blonde

john117 said:


> Blonde, could you please provide a Google Maps reference point with the fountain of youth you're using? Mine doesn't seem to be working all that well .


LOL! You do know what my husband's answer would be, right?

Regular Sex Can Make You Look 7 Years Younger, Scientist Says

Sometimes I wonder if our water is really good too :scratchhead: Neighbors on both sides well into mid 90's. I have joked about bottling our water and selling it!


----------



## LongWalk

Blonde,

Good questions.

Bagdon's wife fell back in love with him, so the sex was good. Neuklas's thread raises more questions about the survival of love than Bagdon's.

Some LD wives who increase sexual frequency and even enjoy the sex may still not love their husbands very much more. Could also be true for men who ignored their wives.

For lack of a better description, could we say that some people cannot make a spiritual connection?


----------



## john117

Blonde said:


> If the sex was "on" for you and J2, would that tip the scales?
> 
> 
> 
> The interesting thing about this thread from my perspective is that BB's opening premise was that he was unhappy because of the lack of sex. Yet by BB's own account the sex is now "on" whenever he wants and it does not "fix it". I identify deeply with that. I've heard that if the sex is off it's 90% of the M but if it is "on" it's only 10%.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet TAM's Bagdon disappeared (to live happily ever after?) once the sex was "on" again. :wtf:



No, it would not. My wife is way too inflexible for her own good. That speaks about my priorities I suppose. 

It's like a bad cell phone. A pretty graphical interface won't save a krappy cell phone. But a good cell phone won't be helped by a bad interface (old Blackberries)

All the sex in the world won't make my wife understand (or cover the fact) that it's stupid to keep a 6000 sq ft empty nest, or that she needs to seek treatment for BPD, or reduce the likelihood that in the event I get sick I will be dumped in the nearest cave / nursing home / cliff, never to be heard from again.

Boston is much younger than me but still thinks wisely beyond his years. If you're not a match you're not a match. Yea, it was nice making out in the library 30+ years ago then to our apartment for the touchdown. That was then. The future is a lot further down the line. 

I need a drink


----------



## In Absentia

well, yes, you need to keep the connection going... that's very difficult when only one partner tries his/her best... marriages are complicated. But if it fails, it means the connection wasn't there in the first place...


----------



## john117

I wouldn't say that - people change. If I had to change one thing.... A low pressure low stakes job for her (teach in college in one of many small colleges around here) versus the job she has now which is high pay high pressure..


----------



## In Absentia

john117 said:


> I wouldn't say that - people change. If I had to change one thing.... A low pressure low stakes job for her (teach in college in one of many small colleges around here) versus the job she has now which is high pay high pressure..


Yes, people change, but I still believe the connection should still be there, at least to a certain extent, regardless of whatever life throws at you...


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde, 

I literally can't keep up with your posts on here. Again, I'm sure you're just messing with me.

I'll try to explain how we got from page 1 to page 209. I stated early on that there were issues with the marriage, and I didnt quite understand many whys. Sexlessness is a loud symptom of a bigger problem. Loud symptom for me, not for everyone. I was clueless of the holes in the marriage, dating back to why she needed "space". 12 months were spent in marriage counseling, until she quit in January. A few deep discussions. Some real good listening. Some boundaries (not enough). Some personal change. More zen at home. A few books read. And low and behold we end up at page 209. 

B2 has commented to me a bunch of times on xyz things I ahve done that show how much I've stepped up or just improved. I feel like I have, but that could be biased. Her affirmation of this seems to support my guestimate on self improvement. 

My concerns with her, exposed over the months after the "space" last year were centered around ipad/iphone time (ignoring B3 and myself). The sexlessness got my attention and the rejections really really hurt. Secrecy around ipad/iphone usage. connecting with ex boyfriend and making new guy friends that only come over when i am not home and do $3,000 worth of work for a sixer of beer (treeman). Her continued criticism of my parenting and her mom-good cop dad-bad cop activity. Her disregard for doing anything that I might like that isnt her first choice (mexican or rock concerts). Etc. 

Of all these things, the sexlessness is CLEARLY the least of issues now. Kudos. But what I think you may be missing here is that sexlessness can be a symptom of a problem, not the problem. I came in noticing the sexlessness the loudest. I flipped over the rock and discovered hundreds of worms underneath. So this "fix the sex and the marriage is good thing" you keep taunting me with is not relevant in my situation. 

The greater issue is this whole 95 vs 5% thing that John is talking about. I moved well past my 50% in improvement. My wife no longer rejects me in bed, which is a nice piece of the puzzle. But the ipad, the parenting, the secrecy, the conversations still with treeman, the beer with friend but not with me, the no thanks on a celtics game, etc etc. Shes still in her own world, making sure I'm on the outside, save for that 10 minutes of intercourse a few times a month. 

Please reread the thread before you come in and just spout "sex is fixed so you should be good now right? LOL". 

That feedback is useless.


----------



## Blonde

You are not reading me very carefully BB. Perhaps that is a problem with your W too?

I said I* IDENTIFY *with you there. I said I have heard that sex is 90% when it is off but only 10% when it is on.

My H and I have the same problem. He likes skiing, cold weather, long road trips to take a long bike ride on a trail 2 hours away, amusement parks, heights and I am not interested in any of that and won't go with him. And seriously-blech- a professional sports game? Never!

He can either insist that I morph myself into his mirror image and wind up a divorced man in search of greener grass the next go round. Or he can accept that I am me with my interests and passions which differ from his and we can live and let live when pursuing our personal passions and find some common ground for together time- we both like hikes in nearby parks, we have enjoyed trips to warmer climates, we both enjoy the beach and the swimming holes around here with waterfalls... etc.

Anyway, you are coming across quite frustrated and rejecting toward me and my perspective I'm feeling like divorcing you right now so I'm going to join your W and go find some activities with positive feedback.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> You are not reading me very carefully BB. Perhaps that is a problem with your W too?
> 
> I said I* IDENTIFY *with you there. I said I have heard that sex is 90% when it is off but only 10% when it is on.
> 
> My H and I have the same problem. He likes skiing, cold weather, long road trips to take a long bike ride on a trail 2 hours away, amusement parks, heights and I am not interested in any of that and won't go with him. And seriously-blech- a professional sports game? Never!
> 
> He can either insist that I morph myself into his mirror image and wind up a divorced man in search of greener grass the next go round. Or he can accept that I am me with my interests and passions which differ from his and we can live and let live when pursuing our personal passions and find some common ground for together time- we both like hikes in nearby parks, we have enjoyed trips to warmer climates, we both enjoy the beach and the swimming holes around here with waterfalls... etc.
> 
> Anyway, you are coming across quite frustrated and rejecting toward me and my perspective I'm feeling like divorcing you right now so I'm going to join your W and go find some activities with positive feedback.


please do. just dont forget to post photos of our family on facebook to make sure everyone thinks we're the perfect all american family, despite living 90% separate lives. B3 and I will be in the playroom playing dressup Doc Mcstuffins.


----------



## Blonde

BostonBruins32 said:


> Her continued criticism of my parenting and her mom-good cop dad-bad cop activity. Her disregard for doing anything that I might like that isnt her first choice (mexican or rock concerts). Etc.


Your parenting WILL be a problem if you insist your children's passions be the same as yours and if you treat them with rejection and contempt if they don't care for professional sports, rock concerts, or mexican food. 

Just had to add that after getting a pm from JLD (who says you should be the leader and reach out to your W. Wish you would come back JLD! )

Unsubscribing


----------



## john117

In Absentia said:


> Yes, people change, but I still believe the connection should still be there, at least to a certain extent, regardless of whatever life throws at you...



Try BPD 

We had a good connection thru the first 25 years... But a series of unfortunate events, as the book says, was enough to destroy the relationship.

What one needs is to be adaptive and realistic. Not the easiest qualities to have when you're 50 years old.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

He's not going to lead her because he's no longer in love. She severed the connection.


----------



## john117

WorkingOnMe said:


> He's not going to lead her because he's no longer in love. She severed the connection.



Pretty much on the spot.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> Hope JLD won't mind me copying the latest PM exchange. She says it better than anyone else on TAM:
> 
> 
> 
> And now back to your regularly schedule program of male solutions.... How is that working for ya? Maybe marry each other and you can do it like rabbits with no emotional connection necessary and have eager company for skydiving, ghost pepper eating, and pounding chests at professional sports games? Who needs women and their stupid tastes, emotions, and moods?


our solutions are working as well as your marriage is dear.


----------



## john117

I tried listening - but when the message is as simple as "emotional connections are for teenagers, not adults" there is not very much left to interpretation.

I can't go back and undo the past damage of growing up in a loveless marriage with a mentally ill mother and a demanding workaholic father who wisely spent months away from home for work. Not anymore than Boston can go back in time and unravel the devils haunting his wife.

I could do it if she was willing. But she's not. She has her Thinkpad and her work and her Indian kids and lifetime movie network much like B2 has her iPad and phone and Facebook.

That's not how it works.

After six years of one step forward and three steps back I've pretty much delegated my vast planning talents to D-day. Can't say I did not try.


----------



## In Absentia

john117 said:


> Try BPD
> 
> We had a good connection thru the first 25 years... But a series of unfortunate events, as the book says, was enough to destroy the relationship.
> 
> What one needs is to be adaptive and realistic. Not the easiest qualities to have when you're 50 years old.


I get that... we had it for 15... then her OCD took over... but it makes me wonder if the connection was there in the first place. I thought it was... not sure any more...


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Blonde said:


> Hope JLD won't mind me copying the latest PM exchange. She says it better than anyone else on TAM:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And now back to your regularly schedule program of male solutions.... How is that working for ya? Maybe marry each other and you can do it like rabbits with no emotional connection necessary and have eager company for skydiving, ghost pepper eating, and pounding chests at professional sports games? Who needs women and their stupid tastes, emotions, and moods?



Actually there are lots of women who would be into a guy like bb. He could fall in love and then actually want to lead and meet her emotional needs. But that's not going to happen with b2. Not without her making substantial first moves. That connection is gone. Telling him to fake loving actions isn't going to work. It's not real.


----------



## In Absentia

this emotional connection thing is mainly BS... why is it ok to give emotional connection to your wife, but your wife is entitled not to give you sexual connection in return? It works both ways...


----------



## jld

We can choose to love, WOM. We do not always have to feel it. The feeling can follow our conscious decision to do it.

I know it is not easy, John. It would take a lot of strength to set aside your resentment and choose to act lovingly. It would take the strength of an intelligent, mature, loving man like . . . yourself. 

Can you picture J2 as a little girl, and then a teenager, growing up in that dysfunction? Doesn't your heart hurt for her? Don't you want to reach out and pick her up in your arms and take her away from all that?

Imagine one of your own daughters growing up in that home, then getting married, and years later being the same way. How would you want her husband to treat her?

Blonde told me I am blessed to receive Dug's love. I know it. I don't deserve it. But he loves me anyway. And I feel it, and it makes me melt into him. I know I am lucky.

I was so dysfunctional when I met Dug. Unhealthy family, the wrong values. But he just picked me up and made a home for me anyway. He listened to me and nurtured me and loved me. I don't know what would have happened to me without his stability. I still need it. And he knows it, and does not begrudge me that.

Do you remember that passage from The Little Prince, about the Rose? She is vain and difficult and other things. But she is _his_ rose. He loves her in spite of herself.

I think wise men love their wives that way.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I agree we can choose love. If we want to. But that want only lasts so long and when it's finally gone then it's wrong of people to pressure one to fake it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

In Absentia said:


> this emotional connection thing is mainly BS... why is it ok to give emotional connection to your wife, but your wife is entitled not to give you sexual connection in return? It works both ways...


Just to be clear.. the sexual connection is not my focus. A gesture or gestures of love could come in a million different forms. A facebook post on fathers day after a week earlier berating because i mixed a green shirt with blue pants on B3 is not a gesture of love. 

WOM, the only amendment I would make to your comment is that I dont even need her to make "first" moves. Just moves. First, last, second..whtever. I've made 50, just make 2 or 3 back and i'd agree with Jim Carrey in Dumb and Dumber when he proclaimed: "so you're saying theres a chance".


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> We can choose to love, WOM. We do not always have to feel it. The feeling can follow our conscious decision to do it.
> 
> I know it is not easy, John. It would take a lot of strength to set aside your resentment and choose to act lovingly. It would take the strength of an intelligent, mature, loving man like . . . yourself.
> 
> Can you picture J2 as a little girl, and then a teenager, growing up in that dysfunction? Doesn't your heart hurt for her? Don't you want to reach out and pick her up in your arms and take her away from all that?
> 
> Imagine one of your own daughters growing up in that home, then getting married, and years later being the same way. How would you want her husband to treat her?
> 
> Blonde told me I am blessed to receive Dug's love. I know it. I don't deserve it. But he loves me anyway. And I feel it, and it makes me melt into him. I know I am lucky.
> 
> I was so dysfunctional when I met Dug. Unhealthy family, the wrong values. But he just picked me up and made a home for me anyway. He listened to me and nurtured me and loved me. I don't know what would have happened to me without his stability. I still need it. And he knows it, and does not begrudge me that.
> 
> Do you remember that passage from The Little Prince, about the Rose? She is vain and difficult and other things. But she is _his_ rose. He loves her in spite of herself.
> 
> I think wise men love their wives that way.


JLD, I dont buy everything you say, but I recognize the intention and the points behind your theories. My lord are you a sweet lady. Your hub is a lucky dude.


----------



## john117

How did the Ancient Egyptians say it? 

I was sad because I had no 4K HDTV until I saw a man who was stuck with NTSC...

I wish I could go back and "help" J2 from a life of being chauffeured around in a government limo, with tutors for every class, a maid and cook, and the like. She was the one living with her dad on assignment while mom kept the other kids. All things considered J2 got the best deal out of all the kids. 

Now, my old flame in my college days in Europe... CSA'd by a relative, beyond dirt poor, abusive and absent father, who died at home of an aneurism and was found DOA on the floor by his daughter who was like 13-14 at the time. Lots more stories - my favorite aunt was a supervisor in the health clinic nearby her house (hovel would be more accurate) and knew her case quite well. Back then you had to be in pretty dire straits to have a "case"... And she was. 

That's the kind of person that I would "rescue" not an entitled little bleep whose idea of hardship was that she never made any friends because she moved every year.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

You and Dug both recognized early on that each would bring out the best in the other. 

And proceeded to do just that. 

And just as Dug became that utterly dependable, rock solid stabilizing force in your life, you became the music - in his life. 

True symbiosis. 

It is why I have never seen a mean spirited post from you. Blunt yes. Relentlessly focused on being understood - sure. 

But not mean. 

In fact, I would say that the main themes you focus on have proven utterly true for me. 

I only hope you can help Blonde as much as you have helped others on TAM. 

Over time maybe she will become more like you. One can only hope.....





jld said:


> We can choose to love, WOM. We do not always have to feel it. The feeling can follow our conscious decision to do it.
> 
> I know it is not easy, John. It would take a lot of strength to set aside your resentment and choose to act lovingly. It would take the strength of an intelligent, mature, loving man like . . . yourself.
> 
> Can you picture J2 as a little girl, and then a teenager, growing up in that dysfunction? Doesn't your heart hurt for her? Don't you want to reach out and pick her up in your arms and take her away from all that?
> 
> Imagine one of your own daughters growing up in that home, then getting married, and years later being the same way. How would you want her husband to treat her?
> 
> Blonde told me I am blessed to receive Dug's love. I know it. I don't deserve it. But he loves me anyway. And I feel it, and it makes me melt into him. I know I am lucky.
> 
> I was so dysfunctional when I met Dug. Unhealthy family, the wrong values. But he just picked me up and made a home for me anyway. He listened to me and nurtured me and loved me. I don't know what would have happened to me without his stability. I still need it. And he knows it, and does not begrudge me that.
> 
> Do you remember that passage from The Little Prince, about the Rose? She is vain and difficult and other things. But she is _his_ rose. He loves her in spite of herself.
> 
> I think wise men love their wives that way.


----------



## john117

MEM, what you see is an adult who can regulate and use her emotions to become a better person and deal with what life throws at her. That and a good deal of selflessness.

Compare and contrast that to any negatively portrayed spouse here who starts off with a selfish - often narcissistic - view of entitlement and piles on self serving emotion fed negativity.


Now we need to work on the mean spirited part


----------



## jld

Your kindness is always so humbling, MEM. I actually had to put my head down when I read your post. Thank you. 

I have to say, I have a lot of respect for Blonde. I only have five children. She has eight that she has raised on little money, and with little emotional support from her husband. And they are turning out so well! I am humbled by that, too.

There are Giants on this board. 

And I wish BB had had a dad like you. I wish he had felt loved and nurtured growing up, and had had an empathetic role model. He is having to learn all by himself.

BB, I really want to help you. You know that. You have a kind heart, and I think that is the main thing a man needs to heal his marriage. I believe you still have love in your heart for your wife, and I believe you can turn this around.

How can I help? How can Dug?


ETA: I was just ready to post when I read John's post. Oh, John. Thank you, too. But I am selfish and entitled, too. And plenty emotional. You just don't live with me. 

John, I have given you such a hard time so many times about your wife. But you never lash out at me. Even when you are hurting, you still try to use humor. I think the love you got from your parents, and the love you give to your daughters, steadies you. I am so glad for that, that it sustains you.

I wish I could help you, too. I just don't know what to say anymore.


----------



## BostonBruins32

What a great night. 

B3 and I are knees deep in fajitas and apple slices. My brother got a promotion. My mom is on the campaign trail with. A candidate about to button up a win. And I found new puma shoes for b3 for $10. 

And jld is just breaking down the burly machos on here. 

You gotta take a good night and soak it in.


----------



## Blonde

JLD asked me to share this PM. 



> One thing about Bagdon is that he never ever spoke of his W with contempt and when others did so on his thread, he defended her.
> 
> BB's expectation of and contempt toward his W for not being an extension of himself re: professional sports watching and eating Mexican is triggering for me. A similar attitude of rejection and contempt toward my sons' interests/passions contributed to the 15yo being suicidal.
> 
> BB views and speaks of his W with contempt. And Mem and WOM reinforce and feed that and turn it around on her (BB believes her to be the contemptuous one).
> 
> IMO women are responders. Feed and feed and feed her rejection and contempt and that is going to come right back at you. Children are responders too. If a 15yos lacks respect for a parent, the parent should look in the mirror to check what they are role modeling? Are they treating the child with respect?
> 
> BB is his own worst enemy and trading in his W will solve NOTHING. He's following in his father's footsteps, moving toward abandoning his family and blaming his W for it. Good luck with that!
> 
> /venting


Don't bother replying. BB has made it clear that he has no appreciation for my perspective nor input and I'm not going to hang around and subject myself to enabler-in-chief Mem's disrespectful judgments and put downs


----------



## In Absentia

I agree... playing mind games or being passive-aggressive with your partner just does't work. You can have an adult conversation with her, explaining your problem and how you would like to solve it, then you take your steps according to the result. Playing silly games is childish, immature and humiliating, for both of you...


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Blonde said:


> JLD asked me to share this PM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't bother replying. BB has made it clear that he has no appreciation for my perspective nor input and I'm not going to hang around and subject myself to enabler-in-chief Mem's disrespectful judgments and put downs



Mem has never put you down and you know it. And the pm you posted simply reinforces my feelings about jld's moral compass.


----------



## john117

You're trying to apply civilian logic to a military issue as my father would say.

Other than being a saint there is nobody that would feel no contempt after being treated this way. NOBODY.

It's nice to take your partner's love for granted just as much as you take for granted that your cellphone works everywhere (well not if you have AT&T lolz). It is reassuring to think such trusting people exist.

Many of us know better and realize we are suck in a situation with no easy way out and a partner that uses an iPad or Thinkpad between the knees as a way to avoid not just intimacy but basic human interaction.

So, as my father said, you have to live it to understand it.


----------



## LongWalk

Good thread. Nice to jld come round


----------



## MEM2020

Blonde,

You project your lack of respect for a man (your H) onto all mankind. 

As for me. I like/love/respect a woman (M2) and in general like / love / respect womankind. 


[/B]


Blonde said:


> JLD asked me to share this PM.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't bother replying. BB has made it clear that he has no appreciation for my perspective nor input and I'm not going to hang around and subject myself to enabler-in-chief Mem's disrespectful judgments and put downs


----------



## MEM2020

A wise man




john117 said:


> You're trying to apply civilian logic to a military issue as my father would say.
> 
> Other than being a saint there is nobody that would feel no contempt after being treated this way. NOBODY.
> 
> It's nice to take your partner's love for granted just as much as you take for granted that your cellphone works everywhere (well not if you have AT&T lolz). It is reassuring to think such trusting people exist.
> 
> Many of us know better and realize we are suck in a situation with no easy way out and a partner that uses an iPad or Thinkpad between the knees as a way to avoid not just intimacy but basic human interaction.
> 
> So, as my father said, you have to live it to understand it.


----------



## farsidejunky

WOM:

To somehow believe there was not a jab in MEM's post (no matter how much I may agree with it) is every bit as ignorant as Blonde seeing BB'S wife only as a victim. 

However, JLD is right about BB in that he is living a lie and placing the blame on his wife. A year ago, I would buy that it was her fault. Now? BB has awareness and understanding, yet he continues to blame his wife. He should choose to lead her, or choose to leave her.

The fact that you can't/won't see it tells me you are entirely too comfortable in the victim chair.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Farside, go read my posts in this thread. I have taken bb to task many times for not being up front with his wife.


----------



## MEM2020

WOM,

We live in a funny world. At a glance, blonde is sharing a Private message FROM JLD. But in truth, Blonde is sharing a PM that she (Blonde) sent TO JLD.

------
I can very easily differentiate their posts without any header info. 





WorkingOnMe said:


> Mem has never put you down and you know it. And the pm you posted simply reinforces my feelings about jld's moral compass.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

MEM11363 said:


> WOM,
> 
> We live in a funny world. At a glance, blonde is sharing a Private message FROM JLD. But in truth, Blonde is sharing a PM that she (Blonde) sent TO JLD.
> 
> ------
> I can very easily differentiate their posts without any header info.



Ah, well I can eat crow with the best of them. Jld, I apologize. We've been steering clear of each other and I respect you for that. I took the post as an end to the cease fire and I was wrong.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



WorkingOnMe said:


> Farside, go read my posts in this thread. I have taken bb to task many times for not being up front with his wife.


Then how is JLD's moral compass off? She is taking him to task on his leadership. So you are essentially agreeing with her while disagreeing with her and criticizing her "moral compass".

Is that a personal integrity problem or are your emotions that far out of check? Help me understand the logic.


----------



## MEM2020

Far,

Do you think I'm being unfair?

And FWIW - my most recent suggested quest for Boston was that he lead B2 as he has done with B3. 

As for my tactics, I truly believe that B2 doesn't care what he says. 




farsidejunky said:


> WOM:
> 
> To somehow believe there was not a jab in MEM's post (no matter how much I may agree with it) is every bit as ignorant as Blonde seeing BB'S wife only as a victim.
> 
> However, JLD is right about BB in that he is living a lie and placing the blame on his wife. A year ago, I would buy that it was her fault. Now? BB has awareness and understanding, yet he continues to blame his wife. He should choose to lead her, or choose to leave her.
> 
> The fact that you can't/won't see it tells me you are entirely too comfortable in the victim chair.


----------



## john117

I don't disagree with JLD's assessment either. I'm not the nicest person to live with - those psych degrees have a lot if, ehem, off-label use  - and have tried many times to gap the void. It works marginally well for a brief amount of time then reverts to standard operating procedure.

I tried my absolute best for nearly two months last winter. 95% effort. Very kind, patient, helpful, listening to her concerns, etc etc. 5% improvement.

Tried a few sh!t tests and she failed each and every one. None intimacy related. Tried the fancy Devon street Indian restaurant routine only to be rewarded with a solid 2 hours worth of b!tching about her (mostly Indian) coworkers. Think of a curry lapping golden retriever nodding and saying all the right words.

The root of this is pure selfishness, the inability to see the world that extends past her underwire bra and Estée Lauder treated nose. 

No amount of compassion, listening, etc can change that.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

farsidejunky said:


> Then how is JLD's moral compass off? She is taking him to task on his leadership. So you are essentially agreeing with her while disagreeing with her and criticizing her "moral compass".
> 
> Is that a personal integrity problem or are your emotions that far out of check? Help me understand the logic.



Jld and I have a lot more history than this thread. And I'm not going to get into it.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> And FWIW - my most recent suggested quest for Boston was that he lead B2 as he has done with B3.



Won't work. B3 knows there's no agenda and gets unconditional love in the process.

B2 has an agenda and likely sees ulterior motives behind every action taken by B. 

One can't see the forest if their eyes are shut.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



MEM11363 said:


> Far,
> 
> Do you think I'm being unfair?
> 
> And FWIW - my most recent suggested quest for Boston was that he lead B2 as he has done with B3.
> 
> As for my tactics, I truly believe that B2 doesn't care what he says.


Not at all. You are being fair.

I believe BB needs to lead or leave. The techniques you are suggesting are spot on and fair. They are designed to teach her the hard way (because very little else seems to reach her) some empathy. 

Nothing builds empathy like experiencing pain.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



WorkingOnMe said:


> Jld and I have a lot more history than this thread. And I'm not going to get into it.


Thank you for your honesty.


----------



## In Absentia

the only solution is to going sexless and then to leave when the child is older...


----------



## john117

farsidejunky said:


> Not at all. You are being fair.
> 
> I believe BB needs to lead or leave. The techniques you are suggesting are spot on and fair. They are designed to teach her the hard way (because very little else seems to reach her) some empathy.
> 
> Nothing builds empathy like experiencing pain.



I beg to differ.

Look at basic training. It does bring out some pain and suffering (unless you're USN or USAF according to my West Point officemate ) but it does not bring empathy. Pain and suffering in third world countries does not bring empathy - quite the opposite.

Empathy starts with an interest, ability to see more than one side, and sufficient cognitive processing to not immediately reject what you're seeing out of hand but let it play out in your head.

Empathy requires motivation to see things in different ways. Motivation that is rarely forthcoming in most empathy-poor relationships.

In other words, selfishness. All the leadership skills in the world won't fix that.


----------



## jld

I did not write the pm. Blonde sent it to me, and I thought it was insightful. I suggested that she share it with at least BB, or even the whole board, because I think turning an issue over and all around can help us see it in new ways. 

I think BB still loves his wife and wants to work things out. I think when a man wants to work things out, and really sets his mind to it, he can do almost anything. 

Has anyone followed Day One's story? He is leaving no stone unturned in his efforts to improve himself as a man, a husband, and perhaps even a father. He is so humble. He is just looking with fearless and painful honesty at himself, and is determined to improve. He welcomes "2x4"s.

BB, you know I care about you. I want you to feel loved. I thought your posts last week were heartbreaking. I just saw a little boy, without a dad, his mom looking for love with a rotation of men, and my heart hurt for you. I don't want your little girl to go through a divorce, either.

I wish your wife could heal your hurt right now. I think she will be able to eventually, but I think you are going to have to heal her first. And it starts with earning her trust.

I think consistent kindness, empathy, and compassion for your wife, and the patience that has to go with that, would re-earn her trust. 

Persistence would break down her walls. Your leadership, not just in the relationship, but in dealing with your own internal issues (we all have them), would earn her respect, too. 

And consider marduk's story. He was hurt by his wife's behavior. He did not hide it. He showed her his pain, as MEM would say. She would get defensive and react emotionally, or shut down, even. He just kept sharing his heart, just kept putting it right out there in front of her.

His vulnerability paid off. His pain worked on her conscience. She finally gave up her friend, and her girls' trip. His transparency, combined with the love and consideration he has consistently shown her over the years, broke down her walls. Now they will heal together.

Remember when you heard your wife talking on the phone with her mom? She said you had unresolved issues with your dad, and she thought that was contributing to your marital difficulties?

I thought of that when I read Blonde's post. We get so few neutral bits of info from or about her. Without her being here, we are left to guess her side. I thought maybe what Blonde shared could be illuminating.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

I believe Boston has temporarily suspended his love for B2. 

He could reactivate it, with some level of cooperation from her. 

I do believe that we all have different innate capacity for love.

To a limited degree it can be taught, but it's a pretty hardwired trait. 

Maybe it's time for Boston to try a different communication style.

Boston,
Maybe a very simple cartoon is in order. 

Frame 1 - titled: The present 
Two stick figures holding hands - a big one and a small one - you and B3. And a third stick figure sitting down holding an ipad on the other side of the room. 

Frame 2 - titled: The future 
With a big question mark in the center

--------
Put that on the fridge with a magnet.....





jld said:


> I did not write the pm. Blonde sent it to me, and I thought it was insightful. I suggested that she share it with at least BB, or even the whole board, because I think turning an issue over and all around can help us see it in new ways.
> 
> I think BB still loves his wife and wants to work things out. I think when a man wants to work things out, and really sets his mind to it, he can do almost anything.
> 
> Has anyone followed Day One's story? He is leaving no stone unturned in his efforts to improve himself as a man, a husband, and perhaps even a father. He is so humble. He is just looking with fearless and painful honesty at himself, and is determined to improve. He welcomes "2x4"s.
> 
> BB, you know I care about you. I want you to feel loved. I thought your posts last week were heartbreaking. I just saw a little boy, without a dad, his mom looking for love with a rotation of men, and my heart hurt for you. I don't want your little girl to go through a divorce, either.
> 
> I wish your wife could heal your hurt right now. I think she will be able to eventually, but I think you are going to have to heal her first. And it starts with earning her trust.
> 
> I think consistent kindness, empathy, and compassion for your wife, and the patience that has to go with that, would re-earn her trust.
> 
> Persistence would break down her walls. Your leadership, not just in the relationship, but in dealing with your own internal issues (we all have them), would earn her respect, too.
> 
> And consider marduk's story. He was hurt by his wife's behavior. He did not hide it. He showed her his pain, as MEM would say. She would get defensive and react emotionally, or shut down, even. He just kept sharing his heart, just kept putting it right out there in front of her.
> 
> His vulnerability paid off. His pain worked on her conscience. She finally gave up her friend, and her girls' trip. His transparency, combined with the love and consideration he has consistently shown her over the years, broke down her walls. Now they will heal together.
> 
> Remember when you heard your wife talking on the phone with her mom? She said you had unresolved issues with your dad, and she thought that was contributing to your marital difficulties?
> 
> I thought of that when I read Blonde's post. We get so few neutral bits of info from or about her. Without her being here, we are left to guess her side. I thought maybe what Blonde shared could be illuminating.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I'm really sorry to sound so naive..but I don't get the lead her thing. 

I dont really know what that means, because I get stuck where John lives (or posts about). She leads the league in rolling her eyes at me when I try to have serious discussion. Which either means I suck at it, or she doesnt care. This empathy thing. Empathy and ownership/accountability. Its crucial for every one of life's challenges. 

I think the one that makes me most uncomfortable in this thread is WOM. Because he fairly calls me out for not moving on and just being a fraud. Take a dump or get off the throne. 

And JLD, you're right. B2 isnt on this thread. Which is why I do my best to offer up my failures. My 50% of the troubles in this marriage. Hell I did it with the counselor face to face, so admitting my wrong doings is far easier in an anonymous forum. If you guys cant tell by now, i'm somewhat of an open book. I'll tell you anything, just ask or challenge.


----------



## MEM2020

John,

How much of J2's prioritization of an upper class lifestyle is driven by:
1. A deep belief that she's superior (by way of breeding, beauty and intelligence) and therefore entitled to it
And/or
2. The need to manage social status via shows of wealth
And/or 
3. Something else

I tend to believe that (2) is a reflection of insecurity in most folks. 







john117 said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> Look at basic training. It does bring out some pain and suffering (unless you're USN or USAF according to my West Point officemate ) but it does not bring empathy. Pain and suffering in third world countries does not bring empathy - quite the opposite.
> 
> Empathy starts with an interest, ability to see more than one side, and sufficient cognitive processing to not immediately reject what you're seeing out of hand but let it play out in your head.
> 
> Empathy requires motivation to see things in different ways. Motivation that is rarely forthcoming in most empathy-poor relationships.
> 
> In other words, selfishness. All the leadership skills in the world won't fix that.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> I believe Boston has temporarily suspended his love for B2.
> 
> He could reactivate it, with some level of cooperation from her.
> 
> I do believe that we all have different innate capacity for love.
> 
> To a limited degree it can be taught, but it's a pretty hardwired trait.
> 
> Maybe it's time for Boston to try a different communication style.
> 
> Boston,
> Maybe a very simple cartoon is in order.
> 
> Frame 1 - titled: The present
> Two stick figures holding hands - a big one and a small one - you and B3. And a third stick figure sitting down holding an ipad on the other side of the room.
> 
> Frame 2 - titled: The future
> With a big question mark in the center
> 
> --------
> Put that on the fridge with a magnet.....


I feel scared when I read that magnet idea, MEM. I feel frightened for BB's wife as well as for BB and the little girl. I do not think it would elicit the most genuinely loving reaction from B2. My goal is to inspire genuine love in her for her husband.

I would not normally share something from a pm without the permission of the sender, but I am going to just say that in my communication with BB, he did express love, as I see it, for his wife. And he did, to my mind, clearly defend her. (And I certainly was not attacking her!) I copied Dug on the pm's, and I need to ask him if he saw it that way, too.

I do not want to give up, MEM. I do think this gal has high walls, but I think BB can scale them. I think he is looking for encouragement on how to do it. And I think, and I say this with respect, that taking the attitude that this _can_ be worked out is the route we should take with him, until either he or his wife formally throw in the towel.

I think there is a reason he has kept this thread going. He has not given up yet. 

I wish we could hear from his wife. Maybe she is indeed heartless and selfish. Or maybe she just does not have the trust to expose herself to him. 

I do think she is coping with the lack of intimacy in her marriage by burying herself in Facebook. Like a lot of people, when they cannot, or do not know how, to develop true intimacy, they throw themselves into whatever does bring them positive feelings and a sense of accomplishment. 

Her superficial values (money, appearance) and looking down on other people, as learned from her family, does not indicate great maturity and inner security, either, imo.

So I think it is up to BB. He is capable, imo, of turning this around. Spending time with her (she likes to go places with him) and joining in on her interests would be a great start. Rekindling his love for her by looking at old photos, getting together as a couple with mutual friends -- those are things marduk did.

Marduk also showed his heart, using moving analogies ("Yes, I am jealous of the other man. I do not want to share your heart with him."). His wife shut down, too . . . Until her conscience, subjected regularly to his vulnerability, had worked on her enough.

It is a question of leadership, and responsibility. And you know who I think that rests with.


----------



## farsidejunky

There really is a simple solution, the unintended consequences of which would bring everything to a head, yet the intended consequences could be liberating for both of you.

Simply email her the link to this thread, with a simple message:

"When you are ready to talk, I am ready to listen."


----------



## jld

Oh, BB, please do that. Send her the link.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Thats a hell of a dare. But I can't I've said tough things out of frustration on here. the synopsis would be good, but she would need cliff notes, not the daily up and downs.

yes i realize i'm a bit of a chicken.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Thats a hell of a dare. But I can't I've said tough things out of frustration on here. the synopsis would be good, but she would need cliff notes, not the daily up and downs.
> 
> yes i realize i'm a bit of a chicken.


It would probably either make her walk out, or start working on the marriage with you. Either way, I think you would be on a more decisive path.

I think reading it would be like a sledgehammer to her pride. And I bet she would want to read the whole thing. Might cry, probably would get angry, too. Probably terribly hurt. Could spark a lot of growth.

Would indeed take courage on your part. And you would be an example to others.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



BostonBruins32 said:


> Thats a hell of a dare. But I can't I've said tough things out of frustration on here. the synopsis would be good, but she would need cliff notes, not the daily up and downs.
> 
> yes i realize i'm a bit of a chicken.


Then I question whether or not you are ready to lead. 

Will your relationship with her really become worse? You already feel like she is completely absent. 

This is the ultimate s*** or get off the pot move for you to make. But you have to have the intestinal fortitude to do it.


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> 
> 
> How much of J2's prioritization of an upper class lifestyle is driven by:
> 
> 1. A deep belief that she's superior (by way of breeding, beauty and intelligence) and therefore entitled to it
> 
> And/or
> 
> 2. The need to manage social status via shows of wealth
> 
> And/or
> 
> 3. Something else
> 
> 
> 
> I tend to believe that (2) is a reflection of insecurity in most folks.



#1 - 50%

#2 - 25% - we have non family guests once a year and family guests once every other year 

#3 - 25% - defined as he feeling good about maintaining a Versailles spec living commensurate with her education and pedigree

I don't believe she is insecure socially - just accustomed to this. After living in a McMansion for a dozen years or more it does things to you...


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

First - he needs to address the inherent dishonesty in B2's interaction style. 

Because I am certain of two things:
1. False intimacy is worse than low intimacy 
2. False engagement is worse than low engagement 

And Boston hasn't yet identified how to get past B2's resistance to intimacy. 

Part of it is a strength thing. Deep sigh. I've been a bit lazy on this thread. 

Boston,
JLD is now (in her remarkably skillful manner) shaming me into some genuine effort on your behalf. 

So here goes.

Just like at the office, preparation is the key to success. And just like at work, the less you let it be about you, the better the outcome. 

Prior to attempting to engage with B2 a short self talk is in order.

1. I Boston am good at intimacy. If B2 pushes me away, it's because she fears it, and/or dislikes it. That isn't about me, and I won't take it personally. 
2. I'm going to expect and prepare for B2's standard resistance package which is largely non verbal - eye rolling, facial expressions etc. 

When I approach B2 I'm going start with some non verbal anesthetic. 
- Slow approach 
- Soft touch on her arm
- Direct eye contact
- Gently concerned facial expression

Boston: Let me help you
B2: Eye rolling, irritated face 
Boston: (totally unfazed - and unhurt) I'm here to help you
B2: (irritated) what do you want?
Boston: I'm sorry that you are afraid of (pausing) feeling close to me. And I honestly don't know why THAT (touching ipad) is more important than engaging with me and B3.
B2: Why are you trying to (control me, smother me, ...) - anger as a tool to avoid honest communication
Boston: I'm trying to love you, and also trying to teach you how to love B3 by way of my example. Trying, but not succeeding. 
B2: (sarcastically) Fine. How do you plan to help me?
Boston: Let's start with a question. Why aren't you happy? 

And then if you can get to it: What do you really want from life? 

No matter what she says - don't argue. You don't have to agree. But don't argue. If you think she's pushing you away via cruelty or deceit, you can ask, but don't let her upset you. 

For example:
Boston: (smiling gently): Is that really how you feel, or are you saying that in the hope that you'll hurt me and I will leave you alone? 

-------
This type conversation might or might not be a step in the right direction. 

But it's a certain and EPIC fail if you engage like this and allow B2 to destabilize you. From start to end, you need to be impervious to her attempts to push you away. 

BTW: when you prep, you always prep for the worst case scenario. That means you imagine her saying: I can't do this anymore

And you imagine yourself hearing that and remaining engaged, calm and soft. 

That means if you hear that - it stays all about her with: I'm sorry that you are so unhappy. I'll support you, whatever you want to do. And no matter what happens I will always be grateful to you for B3. 

-----------
As for car rides where she gets lost in her phone. Before you agree to go you say: If this is going to be a Boston excursion I would LIKE to go. If this is going to be an iPhone excursion I'll pass. 

Same with visits to her family. 

---------
For now, I want you to think of your interactions with B2 in the following manner. Is her conduct:
- Pulling you closer
- Pushing you away
- Neutral 

BTW: asking you to go shopping and then heavily iPhoning is actually pushing you away. 






jld said:


> I feel scared when I read that magnet idea, MEM. I feel frightened for BB's wife as well as for BB and the little girl. I do not think it would elicit the most genuinely loving reaction from B2. My goal is to inspire genuine love in her for her husband.
> 
> I would not normally share something from a pm without the permission of the sender, but I am going to just say that in my communication with BB, he did express love, as I see it, for his wife. And he did, to my mind, clearly defend her. (And I certainly was not attacking her!) I copied Dug on the pm's, and I need to ask him if he saw it that way, too.
> 
> I do not want to give up, MEM. I do think this gal has high walls, but I think BB can scale them. I think he is looking for encouragement on how to do it. And I think, and I say this with respect, that taking the attitude that this _can_ be worked out is the route we should take with him, until either he or his wife formally throw in the towel.
> 
> I think there is a reason he has kept this thread going. He has not given up yet.
> 
> I wish we could hear from his wife. Maybe she is indeed heartless and selfish. Or maybe she just does not have the trust to expose herself to him.
> 
> I do think she is coping with the lack of intimacy in her marriage by burying herself in Facebook. Like a lot of people, when they cannot, or do not know how, to develop true intimacy, they throw themselves into whatever does bring them positive feelings and a sense of accomplishment.
> 
> Her superficial values (money, appearance) and looking down on other people, as learned from her family, does not indicate great maturity and inner security, either, imo.
> 
> So I think it is up to BB. He is capable, imo, of turning this around. Spending time with her (she likes to go places with him) and joining in on her interests would be a great start. Rekindling his love for her by looking at old photis, getting together as a couple with mutual friends -- those are things marduk did.
> 
> Marduk also showed his heart, using moving analogies ("Yes, I am jealous of the other man. I do not want to share your heart with him."). His wife shut down, too . . . Until her conscience, subjected regularly to his vulnerability, had worked on her enough.
> 
> It is a question of leadership, and responsibility. And you know who I think that rests with.


----------



## MEM2020

If you link her here - it will likely trigger a death spiral. 

She is crazily focused on managing her image. The idea that a bunch of strangers know all this stuff about her - she will feel totally violated. And furious. 

And - Boston hasn't been as candid with her as he should so she will truly be shocked by some of this. And betrayed that he told strangers this - before telling her. 






BostonBruins32 said:


> Thats a hell of a dare. But I can't I've said tough things out of frustration on here. the synopsis would be good, but she would need cliff notes, not the daily up and downs.
> 
> yes i realize i'm a bit of a chicken.


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> First - he needs to address the inherent dishonesty in B2's interaction style.
> 
> Because I am certain of two things:
> 1. False intimacy is worse than low intimacy
> 2. False engagement is worse than low engagement
> 
> And Boston hasn't yet identified how to get past B2's resistance to intimacy.
> 
> Part of it is a strength thing. Deep sigh. I've been a bit lazy on this thread.
> 
> Boston,
> *JLD is now (in her remarkably skillful manner) shaming me into some genuine effort on your behalf. *


She's a Wiley one! 




MEM11363 said:


> So here goes.
> 
> Just like at the office, preparation is the key to success. And just like at work, the less you let it be about you, the better the outcome.
> 
> Prior to attempting to engage with B2 a short self talk is in order.
> 
> 1. I Boston am good at intimacy. If B2 pushes me away, it's because she fears it, and/or dislikes it. That isn't about me, and I won't take it personally.
> 2. I'm going to expect and prepare for B2's standard resistance package which is largely non verbal - eye rolling, facial expressions etc.
> 
> When I approach B2 I'm going start with some non verbal anesthetic.
> - Slow approach
> - Soft touch on her arm
> - Direct eye contact
> - Gently concerned facial expression
> 
> Boston: Let me help you
> B2: Eye rolling, irritated face
> Boston: (totally unfazed - and unhurt) I'm here to help you
> B2: (irritated) what do you want?
> Boston: I'm sorry that you are afraid of (pausing) feeling close to me. And I honestly don't know why THAT (touching ipad) is more important than engaging with me and B3.
> B2: Why are you trying to (control me, smother me, ...) - anger as a tool to avoid honest communication
> Boston: I'm trying to love you, and also trying to teach you how to love B3 by way of my example. Trying, but not succeeding.
> B2: (sarcastically) Fine. How do you plan to help me?
> Boston: Let's start with a question. Why aren't you happy?
> 
> And then if you can get to it: What do you really want from life?
> 
> No matter what she says - don't argue. You don't have to agree. But don't argue. If you think she's pushing you away via cruelty or deceit, you can ask, but don't let her upset you.
> 
> For example:
> Boston: (smiling gently): Is that really how you feel, or are you saying that in the hope that you'll hurt me and I will leave you alone?
> 
> -------
> This type conversation might or might not be a step in the right direction.
> 
> But it's a certain and EPIC fail if you engage like this and allow B2 to destabilize you. From start to end, you need to be impervious to her attempts to push you away.
> 
> BTW: when you prep, you always prep for the worst case scenario. That means you imagine her saying: I can't do this anymore
> 
> And you imagine yourself hearing that and remaining engaged, calm and soft.
> 
> That means if you hear that - it stays all about her with: I'm sorry that you are so unhappy. I'll support you, whatever you want to do. And no matter what happens I will always be grateful to you for B3.
> 
> -----------
> As for car rides where she gets lost in her phone. Before you agree to go you say: If this is going to be a Boston excursion I would LIKE to go. If this is going to be an iPhone excursion I'll pass.
> 
> Same with visits to her family.
> 
> ---------
> For now, I want you to think of your interactions with B2 in the following manner. Is her conduct:
> - Pulling you closer
> - Pushing you away
> - Neutral
> 
> BTW: asking you to go shopping and then heavily iPhoning is actually pushing you away.


This is brilliant! Straight to the heart of the matter, solid!

Boston, get off your lazy ass and do something about the general malaise of discontent in which you are raising your daughter!


----------



## john117

MEM MEM MEM... The script you wrote is perfect to a tee. However, here's how the esteemed Dr. J2 would react.

1. Take your hand away 

2. I am stressed about work. The expletive list offshore team has not done sh!t and I'm the one the client sees. I am stressed. Of fvcking course I am stressed.

3. All I want from this (points to her Thinkpad) is to get my fvcking work done. Do you know anything about SAP? No? Of fvcking course you don't. All you do is play with Photoshop all day for a few hours and call it work. YOU DONT KNOW WORK.

4. I have a sinus infection (in her better years got two or three of those a month).

5. There is a mouse in the house. How can I be in the mood for sex with a mouse roaming in my kitchen. (True quote)

(After the mouse was caught and exiled to Louisville we had the great moth debacle of 2014. A moth ate thru one of her cashmere sweaters...)

6. I'm not in the mood for sex because all my clothes are on the bed waiting to be vacuumed or dry cleaned. I'm worried about my carpets. 

To be fair I'm worried about the carpets too as they cost around $10k each... 

I don't know about Boston but the last few years have been pure Comedy Central material...


----------



## WorkingOnMe

For the record bb, I'm hard on you mostly because I am you.


----------



## Anon Pink

WorkingOnMe said:


> For the record bb, I'm hard on you mostly because I am you.


WOM! Get off your lazy ass and do something!


----------



## In Absentia

john117 said:


> MEM MEM MEM... The script you wrote is perfect to a tee. However, here's how the esteemed Dr. J2 would react.
> 
> 1. Take your hand away



ah, ah... I got "don't touch me" yesterday...


----------



## jld

I was not trying to shame anyone. I enjoy reading your posts, MEM, even when we disagree. I think you have a caring heart. 

Can you explain how you felt shamed by what I wrote? I thought I was just offering my own thoughts and how I would feel if Dug put up a magnet like that. Did that come across as harsh? I did not mean for it to. I'm sorry if it did.

And feel free to give an example shaming me. I want to see if it feels like shaming to me, or something else. My suspicion is that we may feel things differently, but I would like to know for sure. To me, I was just communicating my thoughts and feelings.

Do you remember when you were getting after me last summer about yelling at Dug? And I really thought deeply about why I do it? Your really focusing on that was helpful. I don't think I had ever spent that much time thinking about it. It really got me to the root of why I do it. I still appreciate the time you spent with me on that. I grew in understanding from your challenge.

Sincere thanks.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

Profoundly sorry. 

I absolutely intended that in a playful manner. 

This was the literal verbatim truth of what I meant:

JLD is kindly reminding me that B2 is likely fearful of and not very adept at intimacy. And that as such, she will respond better to the velvet glove, than the iron fist. 

The iron fist is the lazy (and also safer route). The velvet glove requires more skill, courage and determination. 

--------
JLD - there was absolutely no shaming of any sort in what you posted. None. Zero. 

You simply wrote something that inspired me to act out of kindness and strength, instead of fear and anger. 






jld said:


> I was not trying to shame anyone. I enjoy reading your posts, MEM, even when we disagree. I think you have a caring heart.
> 
> Can you explain how you felt shamed by what I wrote? I thought I was just offering my own thoughts and how I would feel if Dug put up a magnet like that. Did that come across as harsh? I did not mean for it to. I'm sorry if it did.
> 
> And feel free to give an example shaming me. I want to see if it feels like shaming to me, or something else. My suspicion is that we may feel things differently, but I would like to know for sure. To me, I was just communicating my thoughts and feelings.
> 
> Do you remember when you were getting after me last summer about yelling at Dug? And I really thought deeply about why I do it? Your really focusing on that was helpful. I don't think I had ever spent that much time thinking about it. It really got me to the root of why I do it. I still appreciate the time you spent with me on that. I grew in understanding from your challenge.
> 
> Sincere thanks.


----------



## john117

In Absentia said:


> ah, ah... I got "don't touch me" yesterday...



But I'm way ahead in the "rejection due to vermin" category...


----------



## jld

Thanks, MEM. I was just sitting here thinking, "Wow, I'm afraid to talk to MEM anymore, because I might accidentally shame him. And that is really too bad, because I enjoy challenging conversations."

The thing about you, MEM, is that when you challenge me, you never really seem harsh, not in your heart. Even if you tried to be, I think you are too genuinely caring to be able to purposely hurt people.

Thanks again for clearing that up. . Sorry I did not catch on to the humor!


----------



## Blonde

This is for Mrs Boston if she should read this thread.

Dear Mrs Boston,

This is my rendition of the treatment you have received on TAM










Don’t blame you if you want to divorce him after reading the contemptuous way he sees you and speaks of you and how he does not defend you when others join in the Roast. If it was me, I’d divorce him. There are men out there who understand and value feminine sensitivities/intuition/emotion (see my signature line for example)

Your husband has unresolved rage toward his mother and his father over his childhood experiences Ditto for some of the men advising him it seems.

Here is a link to a book you may find helpful. The second diagram reminds me of how you and your daughter don’t have your own identity on TAM. You are BB 2 and 3, and how retaliation is recommended if you dare not like professional sports or Mexican food. Around here, it is not about YOU, Mrs Boston. Get back to the plantation and bow to Numero Uno!

Please feel free to PM me Mrs Boston (NOT BRUINS AS THAT IS NOT *YOUR* IDENTITY). Please let me know if you open a thread as I would love to support you. God Bless You!


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> This is for Mrs Boston if she should read this thread.
> 
> Dear Mrs Boston,
> 
> This is my rendition of the treatment you have received on TAM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don’t blame you if you want to divorce him after reading the contemptuous way he sees you and speaks of you and how he does not defend you when others join in the Roast. If it was me, I’d divorce him. There are men out there who understand and value feminine sensitivities/intuition/emotion (see my signature line for example)
> 
> Your husband has unresolved rage toward his mother and his father over his childhood experiences Ditto for some of the men advising him it seems.
> 
> Here is a link to a book you may find helpful. The second diagram reminds me of how you and your daughter don’t have your own identity on TAM. You are BB 2 and 3, and how retaliation is recommended if you dare not like professional sports or Mexican food. Around here, it is not about YOU, Mrs Boston. Get back to the plantation and bow to Numero Uno!
> 
> Please feel free to PM me Mrs Boston (NOT BRUINS AS THAT IS NOT *YOUR* IDENTITY). Please let me know if you open a thread as I would love to support you. God Bless You!


wow. feel better? anything else about your personal experience you would like to share?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



Blonde said:


> This is for Mrs Boston if she should read this thread.
> 
> Dear Mrs Boston,
> 
> This is my rendition of the treatment you have received on TAM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don’t blame you if you want to divorce him after reading the contemptuous way he sees you and speaks of you and how he does not defend you when others join in the Roast. If it was me, I’d divorce him. There are men out there who understand and value feminine sensitivities/intuition/emotion (see my signature line for example)
> 
> Your husband has unresolved rage toward his mother and his father over his childhood experiences Ditto for some of the men advising him it seems.
> 
> Here is a link to a book you may find helpful. The second diagram reminds me of how you and your daughter don’t have your own identity on TAM. You are BB 2 and 3, and how retaliation is recommended if you dare not like professional sports or Mexican food. Around here, it is not about YOU, Mrs Boston. Get back to the plantation and bow to Numero Uno!
> 
> Please feel free to PM me Mrs Boston (NOT BRUINS AS THAT IS NOT *YOUR* IDENTITY). Please let me know if you open a thread as I would love to support you. God Bless You!


Blonde:

The fact that you are singularly unwilling to give any credence to BB speaks volumes about your beliefs. The way you choose to communicate your points is deliberately inflammatory and vitriolic. You clearly hold anger for men given your utter lack of giving men any benefit of the doubt.

It is clear in your posts you believe men should cater to women nearly exclusively, and any meaningful give and take is not really acceptable.

Perhaps one day a man will show you enough love that you realize we are not all (or even mostly) monsters.

BB:

Just accept that anything less than you accepting 100% responsibility for your wifes behavior will not resonate with Blonde, and let it go. Hopefully I can follow the same advice...


----------



## john117

Blonde has it almost right except her assumption that the majority of men in sexual or emotional dire straits in TAM are dealing with NormalPeople (tm) wives.

That has not been my experience. 

I'm not talking about the obvious cases where a minor correction via 180 or MC or whatnot that often resolve themselves giving great credence to the usual alphabet soup DIY books.

I'm talking about those who have to deal with emotional zombie wives / and occasional husbands. The NonNormalPeople (tm). The Langoliers of intimacy. 

You (royal you) have not seen what life is living with a ghost of a person. Some of us have. I can't say I'm not to blame in my case. But in retrospect if I could be as bad as I feel I should be there aren't 100 Lifetime Movie Network bad male movies that could describe what I COULD do. 

I'm very intelligent and very creative and have few moral constraints. I can manipulate people to do my bidding pretty easily. And do  yet I don't really unleash my talents towards J2. What I have written here has been filtered down - self censored - because tgere are many times it's even worse than that. 

NormalPeople (tm) can't see that. They think we live in a sexless version of The Cleavers. It ain't so. And yet we stay because of commitment, our kids, or pity. Eventually even we give up. 

I don't want to think in 20 years that i did not do everything possible to help my kids and even my ghost of a wife. I'm not perfect, but sure as he11 I'm a lot more perfect than her.


----------



## In Absentia

john117 said:


> Blonde has it almost right except her assumption that the majority of men in sexual or emotional dire straits in TAM are dealing with NormalPeople (tm) wives.
> 
> That has not been my experience.
> 
> I'm not talking about the obvious cases where a minor correction via 180 or MC or whatnot that often resolve themselves giving great credence to the usual alphabet soup DIY books.
> 
> I'm talking about those who have to deal with emotional zombie wives / and occasional husbands. The NonNormalPeople (tm). The Langoliers of intimacy.
> 
> You (royal you) have not seen what life is living with a ghost of a person. Some of us have. I can't say I'm not to blame in my case. But in retrospect if I could be as bad as I feel I should be there aren't 100 Lifetime Movie Network bad male movies that could describe what I COULD do.
> 
> I'm very intelligent and very creative and have few moral constraints. I can manipulate people to do my bidding pretty easily. And do  yet I don't really unleash my talents towards J2. What I have written here has been filtered down - self censored - because tgere are many times it's even worse than that.
> 
> NormalPeople (tm) can't see that. They think we live in a sexless version of The Cleavers. It ain't so. And yet we stay because of commitment, our kids, or pity. Eventually even we give up.
> 
> I don't want to think in 20 years that i did not do everything possible to help my kids and even my ghost of a wife. I'm not perfect, but sure as he11 I'm a lot more perfect than her.


well said, John... :smthumbup:


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Blonde has it almost right except her assumption that the majority of men in sexual or emotional dire straits in TAM are dealing with NormalPeople (tm) wives.
> 
> That has not been my experience.
> 
> I'm not talking about the obvious cases where a minor correction via 180 or MC or whatnot that often resolve themselves giving great credence to the usual alphabet soup DIY books.
> 
> I'm talking about those who have to deal with emotional zombie wives / and occasional husbands. The NonNormalPeople (tm). The Langoliers of intimacy.
> 
> You (royal you) have not seen what life is living with a ghost of a person. Some of us have. I can't say I'm not to blame in my case. But in retrospect if I could be as bad as I feel I should be there aren't 100 Lifetime Movie Network bad male movies that could describe what I COULD do.
> 
> I'm very intelligent and very creative and have few moral constraints. I can manipulate people to do my bidding pretty easily. And do  yet I don't really unleash my talents towards J2. What I have written here has been filtered down - self censored - because tgere are many times it's even worse than that.
> 
> NormalPeople (tm) can't see that. They think we live in a sexless version of The Cleavers. It ain't so. And yet we stay because of commitment, our kids, or pity. Eventually even we give up.
> 
> I don't want to think in 20 years that i did not do everything possible to help my kids and even my ghost of a wife. I'm not perfect, but sure as he11 I'm a lot more perfect than her.


well said.

There are some things in life that require absolutes, right vs wrong. Correct answer vs incorrect answer. I'm not asking for this type of change or correction. 

I just want to see movement. Trajectory. be better tomorrow than you were yesterday. 

I'd love her to surprise me with 4 sets of Bruins tickets and a gift card for a local mexican restaurant. I'd love her to want to have sex daily. I'd love her to take her secret service settings off her facebook. I'd love her to back my parenting with B3. I'd love to see join in with B3 and myself when we have tea parties on our bed. I'd love her to see me or recognize me as physically attractive. I'd love her to not roll her eyes when I talk to her. 


Yep, I'd love all that stuff to happen tomorrow with the snap of a finger. But I've never once complained about all those activities not happening today. Instead, I've complained that there is no movement towards improvement. The most tangible movement was months ago when she began letting me have sex with her. Thats a step. But I need another step. I left counseling with a host of steps to make to improve my role in the marriage. I need her to take more than one step per year. Rome wasnt built in a day, but those union construction workers made progress daily. 

Thats all I'm asking for. So like John, you can only do 95% of the change for so long before you begin to wonder "wait a minute whats going on here".


----------



## john117

Well, yea, I did ace the Verbal GRE 

(Good thing no points off for horrendous accent :rofl


----------



## jld

BB, from reading 7 Habits, what advice do you think Stephen Covey would give you? (Apart from that passage I quoted to you the other day)


----------



## john117

It's not even about daily sex. At my age it's not like I could  It's about BEING THERE. 

Not zombie there. THERE there. After we became empty nesters last year we went to our favorite Indian restaurant. I decided to let her speak her mind. Not surprisingly she spent 90 minutes b!tching about her Indian coworkers. Tried this a couple more times. Same results. Never gone out with her on a dinner "date" since.

If she can't be bothered with such simple things then sex is the least of my concerns. 

That's what a zombie marriage looks like. I don't expect tickets to a Kansas concert (went with my younger one) or gallery browsing (older) or car show (friends)... But a cup of coffee at Starbucks?

View attachment 29874


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> BB, from reading 7 Habits, what advice do you think Stephen Covey would give you? (Apart from that passage I quoted to you the other day)


he would challenge me not to let my perceptions of her actions(lack of actions) affect my being/feelings. To which point, he's spot on. 

Then I'd grow a pair of balls and say, "well then why am I even married here?" 

I've never grasped the right expectation from a marriage. The counselor sounded similar to covey, in that its not my wife's job to make me happy. Which I buy 100%, and foolishly didnt buy before counseling (you hear that blonde, more admitting to my faults in the marriage). The feedback I got from MC was that I'm on my own to make mysefl happy and love myself. Which left me with the open ended question, what should I expect from a partner? 

If my partner doesnt want to join in for tea time with B3? if my partner only wants to go to sushi with me or the local outlets to shop or do other things that fullfill her happiness, then what is a marriage for? Is it solely for the children? What should I expect? Because if I can fully transform in to the 7 habits teachings, I will be able to better shield out external factors that make or dont make me happy. I will not ask my wife to go to a concert of a band I like (told me no everytime i asked before), I won't ask her to work out with me (has felt tired for years), I wont ask her to go for bbq ("im not a fan"), I won't tell her about my day work or about how my family is doing (she doesnt look up from ipad)..etc... 

is this marriage? two separate lives, one bed. ?? I cant wrap my brain around what to expect.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> It's not even about daily sex. At my age it's not like I could  It's about BEING THERE.
> 
> Not zombie there. THERE there. After we became empty nesters last year we went to our favorite Indian restaurant. I decided to let her speak her mind. Not surprisingly she spent 90 minutes b!tching about her Indian coworkers. Tried this a couple more times. Same results. Never gone out with her on a dinner "date" since.
> 
> If she can't be bothered with such simple things then sex is the least of my concerns.
> 
> That's what a zombie marriage looks like. I don't expect tickets to a Kansas concert (went with my younger one) or gallery browsing (older) or car show (friends)... But a cup of coffee at Starbucks?
> 
> View attachment 29874


right.

what cracks me up is when I do things without her, she becomes all curious and or concerned. When i ask her to join me, "not my thing". 

I'm more than willing to listen to her work rant or whatever, I just wish it didnt only have to be one sided. I havent missed one of her family gatherings in years. She's missed 50% of mine, and we arrive late and leave early at everyone. Come on now. Meet me in the middle. 

the effort. just try.


----------



## jld

BB, do you remember the part of 7 Habits where the man is just furious about the misbehaving kids on the subway? They are just chasing around, screaming, being totally obnoxious, and their dad is totally impervious to it.

So the man is getting more and more outraged by their behavior, the lack of manners in today's kids, the laxity of today's parents, etc., and finally confronts the father. 

The father is stunned, shaken out of his stupor. He apologizes for the kids, and then tells the man they were on their way home from the hospital, where their mother had just died.

BB, do you think that passage might have any meaning for you, in light of your perceptions of your wife?


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> BB, do you remember the part of 7 Habits where the man is just furious about the misbehaving kids on the subway? They are just chasing around, screaming, being totally obnoxious, and their dad is totally impervious to it.
> 
> So the man is getting more and more outraged by their behavior, the lack of manners in today's kids, the laxity of today's parents, etc., and finally confronts the father.
> 
> The father is stunned, shaken out of his stupor. He apologizes for the kids, and then tells the man they were on their way home from the hospital, where their mother had just died.
> 
> BB, do you think that passage might have any meaning for you, in light of your perceptions of your wife?


very much could have meaning. 

so does this become a stay the course and wait game? Wait for the part where she finally divulges the pain she feels? 

how do you help someone who thinks your crazy for expressing feeligns (eye roll, and head buried in ipad)? When should I expect improvemnt? What part of seeking out other men on facebook or rejecting things with your husband that you accept with other friends (concert you dont like, going for a beer) is intertwined here? Lets agree that she probably has some baggage or tough emotions inside that are confused or in need of help. What should i expect with regards to my efforts? Should I expect 2.6% improvement per year? less? more? 

If I can 7habit myself, I can hone out the pain in the process of this (rejection and loneliness at home), but isnt there a risk of being pushed away for so long that you eventually throw in the towel? What is her ownership role in this? Are we all adults who have to own our behaviors?


----------



## jld

You seem angry, BB. MEM says anger is really hurt or fear.

I know you are hurting. I hear it in the voices of the other men, too.

Did you read the suggestions I gave you, mainly the ones about reaching out to her, joining in on her activities, leading by nurturing her?

I think that ipad is her teddy bear. She is reaching out to other men for comfort because she does not feel it from you. Her perceptions, remember. But perceptions are reality.

In equal marriage theory everyone would own half the marital issues. I do not think your wife is able to right now. You could pull the plug, and then you would only have to deal with your half during the divorce. 

If you stay, I think you will have to take 100% charge of restarting the love in the marriage. You will have to re-earn her trust. 

She is your customer, BB. And she is not forced, in reality, to buy from you. 

You are right, it is not fair. It just is.

Habit 2: Be pro-active.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

Painful as it is, we need to start at the beginning. And I've decided to remain focused on the beginning (courtesy of JLD's gentle, wise and relentless encouragement) until we reach concensus on what happened. 

Once that happens, I honestly believe two things will transpire:
1. Your path forward will become self evident
2. You will feel good about walking that path to completion

Are you ready to begin? 











BostonBruins32 said:


> very much could have meaning.
> 
> so does this become a stay the course and wait game? Wait for the part where she finally divulges the pain she feels?
> 
> how do you help someone who thinks your crazy for expressing feeligns (eye roll, and head buried in ipad)? When should I expect improvemnt? What part of seeking out other men on facebook or rejecting things with your husband that you accept with other friends (concert you dont like, going for a beer) is intertwined here? Lets agree that she probably has some baggage or tough emotions inside that are confused or in need of help. What should i expect with regards to my efforts? Should I expect 2.6% improvement per year? less? more?
> 
> If I can 7habit myself, I can hone out the pain in the process of this (rejection and loneliness at home), but isnt there a risk of being pushed away for so long that you eventually throw in the towel? What is her ownership role in this? Are we all adults who have to own our behaviors?


----------



## john117

It always comes back to metrics. 90% effort for 60% improvement? Ok. For 40%? Maybe. For 20%? If I'm desperate. For 5% or 10%? Check out time.

Covey never had to deal with my wife otherwise he'd be selling TVs at Best Buy with all due respect.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Yes mem.. Fire away. 

Jld.. Yes I am hurt. Very frustrated. Lonely and lost.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Yes mem.. Fire away.
> 
> Jld.. Yes I am hurt. Very frustrated. Lonely and lost.


((((BB)))) 

and ((((Mrs. BB))))


----------



## MEM2020

The Debt:


Boston,
You both came into the marriage damaged by your backgrounds. 

You had a compulsive need to be loved. B2 came from a family where the women were far stronger than the men. 

In your quest to obtain/retain B2's love, you reinforced B2's broken concept of marriage. 
- Your weakness fed her sense of strength 
- Your generosity fed her belief in female/wife entitlement

And this was the dynamic, largely driven by you, that persisted for about four years. 

Are we in agreement on this? 

If so, then it follows that during those 4 years you were unwittingly bringing out her worst. Not only that, but I would have to say you put a HUGE amount of focus, ingenuity and emotional energy into producing that result. 

Are we still in synch? 

If so, than what do you see as the best way to pay this debt? 

------
One last thing. I wouldn't say all this - even though it's true - if I didn't think you were strong enough to undo what you've done. 






MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> 
> Painful as it is, we need to start at the beginning. And I've decided to remain focused on the beginning (courtesy of JLD's gentle, wise and relentless encouragement) until we reach concensus on what happened.
> 
> Once that happens, I honestly believe two things will transpire:
> 1. Your path forward will become self evident
> 2. You will feel good about walking that path to completion
> 
> Are you ready to begin?


----------



## john117

> - Your weakness fed her sense of strength
> 
> 
> - Your generosity fed her belief in female/wife entitlement


- not weakness but complacency. I'm not a weak person - few motivated immigrants are - but I try to focus in the long term, not her instant whims. Maybe I'm selfish, maybe I'm lazy, but I have stated my position many times that spouse is not slave... Strength is debatable also. Her idea of strength is based on perceived social status and position. Mine is based on accomplishment.

- not generosity per se but not being a jerk either. If that feeds her sense of entitlement then so be it.. I certainly stand somehow guilty on this but not to the extent that her responses and attitude would indicate.


----------



## MEM2020

John,

Your situation is different as was the arc of your marriage. 

For 20-25 years you managed to maintain a healthy and balanced marriage with sufficient love and romance for you to feel fulfilled. 

At the back end of the time frame you had to make an ugly choice:
- happy wife (or at least not overtly unhappy wife) 
Or
- long term well being of your child 

You did the right thing regarding that decision. 

As for your current circumstances:
- Clearly J2 isn't happy 
- Your perception is that she has a mix of deep rooted flaws that have fully expressed themselves 
- And those flaws have proven highly resistant to your attempts to help her 

But you are close to your end game. And when you ultimately leave the marriage you will keep the loving relationship you have with your two happy, productive children, and your half the assets.






john117 said:


> - not weakness but complacency. I'm not a weak person - few motivated immigrants are - but I try to focus in the long term, not her instant whims. Maybe I'm selfish, maybe I'm lazy, but I have stated my position many times that spouse is not slave... Strength is debatable also. Her idea of strength is based on perceived social status and position. Mine is based on accomplishment.
> 
> - not generosity per se but not being a jerk either. If that feeds her sense of entitlement then so be it.. I certainly stand somehow guilty on this but not to the extent that her responses and attitude would indicate.


----------



## Duguesclin

BostonBruins32 said:


> he would challenge me not to let my perceptions of her actions(lack of actions) affect my being/feelings. To which point, he's spot on.
> 
> Then I'd grow a pair of balls and say, "well then why am I even married here?"
> 
> I've never grasped the right expectation from a marriage. The counselor sounded similar to covey, in that its not my wife's job to make me happy. Which I buy 100%, and foolishly didnt buy before counseling (you hear that blonde, more admitting to my faults in the marriage). The feedback I got from MC was that I'm on my own to make mysefl happy and love myself. Which left me with the open ended question, what should I expect from a partner?
> 
> If my partner doesnt want to join in for tea time with B3? if my partner only wants to go to sushi with me or the local outlets to shop or do other things that fullfill her happiness, then what is a marriage for? Is it solely for the children? What should I expect? Because if I can fully transform in to the 7 habits teachings, I will be able to better shield out external factors that make or dont make me happy. I will not ask my wife to go to a concert of a band I like (told me no everytime i asked before), I won't ask her to work out with me (has felt tired for years), I wont ask her to go for bbq ("im not a fan"), I won't tell her about my day work or about how my family is doing (she doesnt look up from ipad)..etc...
> 
> is this marriage? two separate lives, one bed. ?? I cant wrap my brain around what to expect.


BB, I know you are hurting, but please try to look at the situation from a different angle. When you bring someone in your life, things change. They do not remain the same as in the beginning. You need to find a new dynamic. 

If going to sport events is super critical, you should not have gotten married.

Before I met my wife, I spent a lot of time bicycling, like 150k at a time. I really loved it. I secretly hoped that my to be wife would be interested in it. I quickly realized it would not work. I could have taken my best whining voice and try to convince her, but I know it would not work either. Plus, it would have reminded me too much of my dad. He did that all his life and as a teenager I found it just disgusting.

When I was in high-school, my class schedule was in such a way that I had to walk to my dad's work in order to go home. I had to wait there a couple of hours before his work day ended. One day, while I was there, he had a conflict with one of his coworker regarding a work schedule issue. Instead of clearly expressing his issue, he decided to play the little boy with his feelings hurt and, literally, went pouting in the corner. His nice boss (a lady), went to see him and gently talked to him. I am sure she used a lot of active listening and found some kind of compromise. My dad pulled that type of sh1t with my mum all the time. I discovered he was doing the same at work. I was only 14 or 15 years old and I was appalled!

If you want your relationship to improve, stop thinking about what you are not getting and start listening to your wife. What is important to a child's success is not how much time you spend with her/him, but how stable her/his environment is. And yes, BB, that environment includes the mother. This is why you are married.


----------



## john117

Dug,

In order for BB to listen, B2 has to talk. About the marriage. That is as likely to happen as my beloved Cubs making it to the World Series. 

Even if B2 talks, the probability that she will (a) know the truth (b) speak the truth and (c) make use of what is told to her is as much as my Cubs winning the World Series. 

There's a lot of people on TAM for whom I would not have made the above comment, even people in relatively troubled marriages. But not here.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
B2 wasn't like this while they dated. 

Why are you so certain she cannot be led back to the way she was in the beginning? 





john117 said:


> Dug,
> 
> In order for BB to listen, B2 has to talk. About the marriage. That is as likely to happen as my beloved Cubs making it to the World Series.
> 
> Even if B2 talks, the probability that she will (a) know the truth (b) speak the truth and (c) make use of what is told to her is as much as my Cubs winning the World Series.
> 
> There's a lot of people on TAM for whom I would not have made the above comment, even people in relatively troubled marriages. But not here.


----------



## john117

If she could she would at least have given some indications that she would. 

And if she could she might have been able to put two and two together and try to save her marriage.

Then there's how she interacts with B3.

Instead she iPads her life away...


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> B2 wasn't like this while they dated.
> 
> Why are you so certain she cannot be led back to the way she was in the beginning?


I agree with the optimism of this post. I might use the word "inspired" in place of "led," though. And by inspired, I mean BB's earning her trust, her deep trust.

Seven Habits can guide you there, BB. Principle-centered living.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> If she could she would at least have given some indications that she would.
> 
> And if she could she might have been able to put two and two together and try to save her marriage.
> 
> Then there's how she interacts with B3.
> 
> Instead she iPads her life away...


I don't think she is a leader. If she were the leader in her marriage, we could rightly put the responsibility on her. 

BB, can you be the leader? If not, your leaderless ship is just going to continue to be adrift at sea.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Duguesclin said:


> BB, I know you are hurting, but please try to look at the situation from a different angle. When you bring someone in your life, things change. They do not remain the same as in the beginning. You need to find a new dynamic.
> 
> If going to sport events is super critical, you should not have gotten married.
> 
> Before I met my wife, I spent a lot of time bicycling, like 150k at a time. I really loved it. I secretly hoped that my to be wife would be interested in it. I quickly realized it would not work. I could have taken my best whining voice and try to convince her, but I know it would not work either. Plus, it would have reminded me too much of my dad. He did that all his life and as a teenager I found it just disgusting.
> 
> When I was in high-school, my class schedule was in such a way that I had to walk to my dad's work in order to go home. I had to wait there a couple of hours before his work day ended. One day, while I was there, he had a conflict with one of his coworker regarding a work schedule issue. Instead of clearly expressing his issue, he decided to play the little boy with his feelings hurt and, literally, went pouting in the corner. His nice boss (a lady), went to see him and gently talked to him. I am sure she used a lot of active listening and found some kind of compromise. My dad pulled that type of sh1t with my mum all the time. I discovered he was doing the same at work. I was only 14 or 15 years old and I was appalled!
> 
> If you want your relationship to improve, stop thinking about what you are not getting and start listening to your wife. What is important to a child's success is not how much time you spend with her/him, but how stable her/his environment is. And yes, BB, that environment includes the mother. This is why you are married.


Garr! i just deleted my whole comment.

Happy friday.

So Dug, I hear you my man. I should clarify. The issue is not her unwillingness to go to a bruins game, hiking, or mexican food. Its more her willingness to go to said activities with someone else (friend). I've sstopped asking her to concerts or mexican or hiking or to other things that i like 99% more than she does. I also dont ask her to dinner anymore or concerts(ive stopped asking over past say 6 months). We go out as a family at times, but if its not ideally what she wants for dinner she sulks or huffs/puffs during dinner. Thankfully B3 is there and we end up using 85 pieces of paper at the restaurant drawing animals. But I digress. its not what she wont do with me. Its what she will do with anyone except me. That kinda thing. And thats what I never understood about a marriage. And my assumptions were wrong. So its MY perception that was wrong. Which I'm now sifting through.

Please help me with listening to my wife. Shes not a talker, which is fine because everyone is different. She's on her ipad most nights and becomes agitated with serious talks. Help me understand how to listen to her. I know there are other forms of communication, but maybe someone here can give me some insights.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Dug,
> 
> In order for BB to listen, B2 has to talk. About the marriage. That is as likely to happen as my beloved Cubs making it to the World Series.
> 
> Even if B2 talks, the probability that she will (a) know the truth (b) speak the truth and (c) make use of what is told to her is as much as my Cubs winning the World Series.
> 
> There's a lot of people on TAM for whom I would not have made the above comment, even people in relatively troubled marriages. But not here.


Cubs are getting Jon Lester.. you could be in ok next year.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> I don't think she is a leader. If she were the leader in her marriage, we could rightly put the responsibility on her.
> 
> BB, can you be the leader? If not, your leaderless ship is just going to continue to be adrift at sea.


JLD, 100% right. She would admit to not being a leader. At work she gets mad if she doesnt have clear plans or direction. She almost wants a micro manager. 

Micro mgmt makes me want to puke. I captained my basketball team. I lead a team here at work. I organized our vacations, gatherings etc. Even with the inlaws, they turn to me to decide timing for holiday gatherings and or where we're all going or what time leaving etc etc. Its 100% in my blood. I cant move the ball up the field myself, so I've always been very keen at getting the most out of people, be it in sports or work or even B3. 

She definately needs the leadership. But I'm not sure how to get her engagement.


----------



## In Absentia

BostonBruins32 said:


> Please help me with listening to my wife. Shes not a talker, which is fine because everyone is different. She's on her ipad most nights and becomes agitated with serious talks. Help me understand how to listen to her. I know there are other forms of communication, but maybe someone here can give me some insights.


I can't help you... I tried for 30 years to make my wife talk to me and open up to me and I miserably failed...


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> JLD, 100% right. She would admit to not being a leader. At work she gets mad if she doesnt have clear plans or direction. She almost wants a micro manager.
> 
> Micro mgmt makes me want to puke. I captained my basketball team. I lead a team here at work. I organized our vacations, gatherings etc. Even with the inlaws, they turn to me to decide timing for holiday gatherings and or where we're all going or what time leaving etc etc. Its 100% in my blood. I cant move the ball up the field myself, so I've always been very keen at getting the most out of people, be it in sports or work or even B3.
> 
> She definately needs the leadership. But I'm not sure how to get her engagement.


Well, I would say stop expecting her to be a leader, including to take initiative in meeting your needs. It is just going to frustrate you to keep expecting her to be something she is not.

If you are used to leading people at work, just do it at home, too. Now, it is a little trickier, because you do not want to just fire your wife if she does not meet the targets you set for her. You will have to inspire her.

BB, what did you learn in 7 Habits about getting buy in?


----------



## john117

Meh. The (number of encounters per year with J2 + number of Cubs wins per year) is a constant :rofl:


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Well, I would say stop expecting her to be a leader, including to take initiative in meeting your needs. It is just going to frustrate you to keep expecting her to be something she is not.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are used to leading people at work, just do it at home, too. Now, it is a little trickier, because you do not want to just fire your wife if she does not meet the targets you set for her. You will have to inspire her.
> 
> 
> 
> BB, what did you learn in 7 Habits about getting buy in?



Jld, there are visionaries (those who tell you what the future is but not how to get there), leaders, followers, entitleds (waiting for the limo to take them there), indifferents, obstructionists, and rejectionists.

Care to guess who B2 is? J2? Have your pick of the last two in the list....

In Covey's domain there's a financial tangible for swallowing your pride and following. Not in marriage, not in the type of indifference laden marriage we are dealing with here.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



john117 said:


> Jld, there are visionaries (those who tell you what the future is but not how to get there), leaders, followers, entitleds (waiting for the limo to take them there), indifferents, obstructionists, and rejectionists.
> 
> Care to guess who B2 is? J2? Have your pick of the last two in the list....
> 
> In Covey's domain there's a financial tangible for swallowing your pride and following. Not in marriage, not in the type of indifference laden marriage we are dealing with here.


John:

You may be right, but can we safely say BB has done everything possible to arrive at that conclusion? I don't think so. BB has admitted as much in his posts over the last 48 hours. And his resentment is preventing his movement.

So until he does, I think we need to focus on what he can do to rule out every other category you listed by helping him see and improve. 

If we continue up to hammer home how futile the situation is, we are reinforcing that nothing can be done when not everything has been tried yet.


----------



## jld

I am not giving up on BB's marriage, John. He loves this girl and he wants effective strategies for succeeding with her. 

I think 7 Habits works just as well for home life as business life. My marriage and family life are evidence of that. I read it when I was 22, and it is the best "marriage manual" (and one of the few) that I have ever read.

Unless BB gives up and files, I am going to keep cheering (and prodding) him on.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Well, I would say stop expecting her to be a leader, including to take initiative in meeting your needs. It is just going to frustrate you to keep expecting her to be something she is not.
> 
> If you are used to leading people at work, just do it at home, too. Now, it is a little trickier, because you do not want to just fire your wife if she does not meet the targets you set for her. You will have to inspire her.
> 
> BB, what did you learn in 7 Habits about getting buy in?


i should clarify. i dont expect her to be a leader. I also cant punch her in the head to make her talk or grab her ipad and throw it in the dumpster. 

Thats what I'm getting at. I'm not sure how to engage her to buy into my leading. How do i inspire? Should I cut down some trees so she'll talk to me on facebook? I don't know how to get her to buy into the marriage.

My focal point of motivation for her to buy into the marriage was to start in the mirror. Clean up my own house. This is both actual activities and a attitude. The activities were easy wins, no reaction from her, but easy wins. 

The attitude is harder, but maybe more important. A few things I've noticed with the attitude:
- incredible feedback at work. It was never my intention to improve at work, but it became a subset of an overall attitude change
- some strange increase in acknowledgement from other females (part of this jives with what i read in MMSL). again, never part of my intention.
- incredible bonding between b3 and myself.

Getting buy in from people at work or even friends is easy. 4 big things here. think about the end game, use peoples strengths, win win, and seek to understand. In no order. Easy stuff at work. 

For my wife. I am unable to understand, this takes more time and effort. The win win and end game: I'm not sure about what she sees as a win on her end and what her end game is. On the surface, and I'm just being honest, her end game appears to be B4, a new house, and a full time stay at home situation. This sounds like I'm being an @sshole, but she hasnt told or shown me otherwise. 

So to be honest, those end games are not in line with my end game. My end game is a lifestyle/situation that allows me to grow. I could give a crap about a new house and another child does not rank on my lists of endgames or wins. This is where I'm stumped.

See at work its easy. You have organized meetings where you talk about short term and long term goals with your employees. Clearly defined. On paper. Easy to read, therefore easy to act. I dont know what win win and end game looks like for my wife. I dont know how to get her to say it.


----------



## jld

Well, I think you do know her pretty well, even if she is not telling you things directly. You live with her, BB. You observe all kinds of things about her. I am sure she communicates a lot indirectly.

Great job improving yourself, btw. Self-improvement feels so good. 

For now, try to get away from the idea of equal marriage. She is not there right now, and may never be. You are the leader. You have a wife to inspire.

Set the agenda. Put a new house on the back burner. That is just a No for the foreseeable future. Too much unnecessary financial outlay and its accompanying stress while you need to be working on your priority: firming up the marriage.

So a reasonable end game is a successful (her needs met, his needs met) marriage, and eventually B4. I would commit to that. When your marriage has been sufficiently strengthened, you can plan B4.

Back to her. BB, meet her where she is. There was no leader in her home. (Her poor mother had no rock to hang onto. No wonder she is unhappy.) She is not a natural leader, which is part of why she is drawn to _you_. Be that leader for her. 

If she needs micromanagement to feel safe, you will eventually provide it. Not impose it, BB, but provide it, if she feels that would help her. 

Our focus is meeting her needs. Yours will come, but as the leader, you will sacrifice first. Women and children first, etc.

First you have to earn her deepest emotional trust. No control techniques are going to do that, BB. Control techniques invite more rebellion (eye rolls, emotional shutting down, etc.). What you want is to genuinely tap into her emotional needs, to start meeting them at the deepest level, and to bring out the best in her.

What would be your objection to joining in on her Facebook activities, inviting treeman for a beer, and starting to give your wife one sincere compliment every day?


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Well, I think you do know her pretty well, even if she is not telling you things directly. You live with her, BB. You observe all kinds of things about her. I am sure she communicates a lot indirectly.
> 
> Great job improving yourself, btw. Self-improvement feels so good.
> 
> For now, try to get away from the idea of equal marriage. She is not there right now, and may never be. You are the leader. You have a wife to inspire.
> 
> Set the agenda. Put a new house on the back burner. That is just a No for the foreseeable future. Too much unnecessary financial outlay and its accompanying stress while you need to be working on your priority: firming up the marriage.
> 
> So a reasonable end game is a successful (her needs met, his needs met) marriage, and eventually B4. I would commit to that. When your marriage has been sufficiently strengthened, you can plan B4.
> 
> Back to her. BB, meet her where she is. There was no leader in her home. (Her poor mother had no rock to hang onto. No wonder she is unhappy.) She is not a natural leader, which is part of why she is drawn to _you_. Be that leader for her.
> 
> If she needs micromanagement to feel safe, you will eventually provide it. Not impose it, BB, but provide it, if she feels that would help her.
> 
> Our focus is meeting her needs. Yours will come, but as the leader, you will sacrifice first. Women and children first, etc.
> 
> First you have to earn her deepest emotional trust. No control techniques are going to do that, BB. Control techniques invite more rebellion (eye rolls, emotional shutting down, etc.). What you want is to genuinely tap into her emotional needs, to start meeting them at the deepest level, and to bring out the best in her.
> 
> What would be your objection to joining in on her Facebook activities, inviting treeman for a beer, and starting to give your wife one sincere compliment every day?


I'm not having a beer with someone who was trying to f*ck my wife when I was not home. I read the conversations. I know what he was/is trying to do, I'm a guy and i've tried that sh*t when i was single. 

compliment. I have sincerely complimented her at LEAST daily(her appearance, dinner, something with B3 etc) . Ive toned that down lately. 

The facebook thing makes me want to puke honestly. Treeman and ex are the tip of the iceberg for her activity on there. Join in on her facebook activity? Please clarify. I'm not 16, so meeting new girls or guys on facebook and taking selfies feels like a strange thing for a 30something married guy to do. So how could or what should i do to join her? 

her emotional needs and trust. What should I do? 
As is trust: Her privacy settings on facebook are secretive and her phone/ipad is locked down. My phone and computer are not locked and nothing is secretive on facebook. I do not 20 question her when she goes out with her friend and or is running late from work/friend/family/errand/god knows where (she told me she doesnt like to have to answer 20 questions, her father did it all the time to her). When I am running late, she typically calls and i answer unless physically unable to, in which case I get back to her. I do not undercut her or good/bad cop with her regarding parenting, instead I back mom to make sure B3 doesnt get a mixed message. I also dont hold it over her head when she snaps at me, back in the day I would sulk or be silent.

Please help me with some emotional need/trust pointers. I'm very confused.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I'm not having a beer with someone who was trying to f*ck my wife when I was not home. I read the conversations. I know what he was/is trying to do, I'm a guy and i've tried that sh*t when i was single.
> 
> compliment. I have sincerely complimented her at LEAST daily(her appearance, dinner, something with B3 etc) . Ive toned that down lately.
> 
> The facebook thing makes me want to puke honestly. Treeman and ex are the tip of the iceberg for her activity on there. Join in on her facebook activity? Please clarify. I'm not 16, so meeting new girls or guys on facebook and taking selfies feels like a strange thing for a 30something married guy to do. So how could or what should i do to join her?
> 
> her emotional needs and trust. What should I do?
> As is trust: Her privacy settings on facebook are secretive and her phone/ipad is locked down. My phone and computer are not locked and nothing is secretive on facebook. I do not 20 question her when she goes out with her friend and or is running late from work/friend/family/errand/god knows where (she told me she doesnt like to have to answer 20 questions, her father did it all the time to her). When I am running late, she typically calls and i answer unless physically unable to, in which case I get back to her. I do not undercut her or good/bad cop with her regarding parenting, instead I back mom to make sure B3 doesnt get a mixed message. I also dont hold it over her head when she snaps at me, back in the day I would sulk or be silent.
> 
> Please help me with some emotional need/trust pointers. I'm very confused.


(Gently) BB, do you hear the defensiveness in your post? Do you hear the anger? 

I bet she feels it. How could she not? It hit _me _in the face.

She is really trying to protect herself from you. Her fear shows her lack of trust.

If you were afraid of someone, BB, and trying to protect yourself from him, say your dad, what would you want him to do? What would lower your walls, make you feel safe enough to be willing to take a chance and try to trust again?

Just saw the last post. Let's try to relax on possible infidelity (unlikely) for a minute. Let's focus on what makes people feel safe.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> (Gently) BB, do you hear the defensiveness in your post? Do you hear the anger?
> 
> I bet she feels it. How could she not? It hit _me _in the face.
> 
> She is really trying to protect herself from you. Her fear shows her lack of trust.
> 
> If you were afraid of someone, BB, and trying to protect yourself from him, say your dad, what would you want him to do? What would lower your walls, make you feel safe enough to be willing to take a chance and try to trust again?
> 
> Just saw the last post. Let's try to relax on possible infidelity (unlikely) for a minute. Let's focus on what makes people feel safe.


JLD. I will never not feel angry for her men seeking activity on facebook. I have to move past it. But i'm very allowed to feel livid about it. I would feel 100% better if she just answered the questions honestly rather than get angry when I asked her last nov/december. Instead, it is this monster that lives inside me. 

I'm actually really angry at this moment. real angry because the what ifs (and what i know) really haunt me. huge trigger. but i'm at work, so whatever. 

If I were protecting myself from someone, I would be protecting myself from someone who wronged or threatened me. This is what I'm not getting. I take full ownership in not understanding your angle here. My issue is that this is real life with real feelings. 

I let her vent 4 nights after the space need thing. she gave me a host of things I'm doing wrong or did wrong. Anxiety and not picking up after myself were the two highest on the list (yes i took notes, and its still in my car). Perfect. A very weak, crappy BB took the feedback, called counseling the next day. Booked an appointment. Went in without any armour and took a beat down. Hated it. Love it now. Anxiety at home, gone (thats her quote not mine). Cleaning up after myself 159% improvement (she said she noticed it). Patience with B3, night and day (she again told me i seem much more relaxed with b3). 

She told me as recently as weeks ago that she feels really comfortable and taken care of at home. She said she does not stress about money. She does not stress about B3's well being. She said she feels we have a closer bond than ever (hello this is earth, have we met..?). 

So my dad. Just to be clear, he didnt beat me or threaten me. He was just less present. So what would I want him to do if i didnt trust him. I'd want him to show improvement from the heart and not brag about it or announce it. Trajectory. Be present and appear to be trying. 1% better than yesterday, equating to a real growth % improvement over x amount of time. 

So i appologize if it sounds defensive. On a public forum, yes can openly feel defensive. 

What have I said that could hinder things? Full transparency. during a serious conversation x amount of months ago, we were talking about trust and how things are going. I gently told her I appreciate how she feels about things. I also explained that I had to admit that I lacked some level of trust. I explained that the time from September to November feels like a black box of what if to me. I explained that my head and heart both recognize that I'm not out of the woods yet and that there possibility that she may need space or may need to leave again. I explained that this distrust I have is due to feeling like it was out of the blue then so it could be out of the blue again, her privacy setting remain the same (my intuition was right before with this), and that I havent noticed many tangible things shes worked on since counseling. She cried (didnt refute), said i dont ever want to be without you etc etc.. i never wanted to leave you etc etc.. i just wanted it better etc etc.. I gave her a hug, but i didnt retract or say much. I just said thank you for sharing that and kind of left it there. 

id imagine this felt like rejection to her, thus maybe a trust issue for her. But its very simple: She didnt trust me or had an issue with me. She asked me to change. I listened and made changes. Boom. Thats how you show love. Thats how you grow together. 

We just began to get into her side of the story and she quit counseling and has never given me a full rundown or accepted any ownership in her behaviors. Black box city. How does she feel? What is she working on? what happened in sept-nov? what does/did she want?

I'm loaded up on questions. Who doesnt trust who. What actions should I be makign to gain her trust?


----------



## john117

Sigh...

That's the whole point. I don't think you CAN earn their emotional trust because they're so many deviations off normal emotionally it doesn't matter what you do or how hard you try. 

It's the 95% effort for 5% gain issue in all its glory.


----------



## BostonBruins32

not seeing it as shaming. i see what jld is trying to get across.

the only issue is that these are real life things that happened. so when we try to brush aside b2's wrong doings for the greater good, it becomes really painful. and appears to be very one sided.

i dont think thats jld intent, i'm just saying thats the human element here that I think WOM and maybe john are recognizing.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> What have I said that could hinder things? Full transparency. during a serious conversation x amount of months ago, we were talking about trust and how things are going. I gently told her I appreciate how she feels about things. I also explained that I had to admit that I lacked some level of trust. I explained that the time from September to November feels like a black box of what if to me. I explained that my head and heart both recognize that I'm not out of the woods yet and that there possibility that she may need space or may need to leave again. I explained that this distrust I have is due to feeling like it was out of the blue then so it could be out of the blue again, her privacy setting remain the same (my intuition was right before with this), and that I havent noticed many tangible things shes worked on since counseling. *She cried (didnt refute), said i dont ever want to be without you etc etc.. i never wanted to leave you etc etc.. i just wanted it better etc etc.. * I gave her a hug, but i didnt retract or say much. I just said thank you for sharing that and kind of left it there.


She loves you, BB. It is right there. Rest assured.

She is trying, in her own way. The little notes she sends you, having sex a few times a week, seeking you out to be with on errands. She does love you. I sincerely believe that.

The trust issue. You really want her to be transparent with you. It would go a long way towards restoring your trust in _her_.

I am just going to assume she is a total responder in your marriage. You are the activator. So how can you activate her transparency?

First of all, it cannot be forced. Control tactics, like threatening or judging or criticizing or anything that makes her internally run away from you, will fail long term. 

And remember: what feels like judgment to her may just have been meant as constructive criticism from you. Perceptions, as you mentioned. But they are reality to the receiver.

I am transparent with my husband. He has never asked for it. I just give it up willingly. And the only way I can do that is because I know total acceptance and total forgiveness is on the other side. Always.

It does not mean that he does not get momentarily upset. He has certainly raised his voice to me. But I know, no matter what happens, at the end he will always have open arms for me. He believes in me. 

His love for me makes me want to be good to him. He first loved me, and inspired my loving response. When we have problems in our marriage, it is usually started by Dug's lack of attention to me. And it rapidly clears up when I become a priority. So loving someone is not won and done, but ongoing.

BB, honey, I know you are hurt. That anger I felt, and yes, of course you are entitled to all your feelings, that anger is your hurt. You were smacked out of the blue by someone you loved and trusted. You were stunned. Of course you felt betrayed. Perfectly understandable. And her opening up her accounts and phone would go a long way to restoring *your *trust. 

But again, I think it has to come from her, if it is to be true and forever transparency. And that has to be inspired by _you._

Be back in a minute --going to make a potato for ds6.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> She loves you, BB. It is right there. Rest assured.
> 
> She is trying, in her own way. The little notes she sends you, having sex a few times a week, seeking you out to be with on errands. She does love you. I sincerely believe that.
> 
> The trust issue. You really want her to be transparent with you. It would go a long way towards restoring your trust in _her_.
> 
> I am just going to assume she is a total responder in your marriage. You are the activator. So how can you activate her transparency?
> 
> First of all, it cannot be forced. Control tactics, like threatening or judging or criticizing or anything that makes her internally run away from you, will fail long term.
> 
> And remember: what feels like judgment to her may just have been meant as constructive criticism from you. Perceptions, as you mentioned. But they are reality to the receiver.
> 
> I am transparent with my husband. He has never asked for it. I just give it up willingly. And the only way I can do that is because I know total acceptance and total forgiveness is on the other side. Always.
> 
> It does not mean that he does not get momentarily upset. He has certainly raised his voice to me. But I know, no matter what happens, at the end he will always have open arms for me. He believes in me.
> 
> His love for me makes me want to be good to him. He first loved me, and inspired my loving response. When we have problems in our marriage, it is usually started by Dug's lack of attention to me. And it rapidly clears up when I become a priority. So loving someone is not won and done, but ongoing.
> 
> BB, honey, I know you are hurt. That anger I felt, and yes, of course you are entitled to all your feelings, that anger is your hurt. You were smacked out of the blue by someone you loved and trusted. You were stunned. Of course you felt betrayed. Perfectly understandable. And her opening up her accounts and phone would go a long way to restoring her trust.
> 
> But again, I think it has to come from her, if it is to be true and forever transparency. And that has to be inspired by _you._
> 
> Be back in a minute --going to make a potato for ds6.



So doing ___ would inspire her. ??

The ONLY time she seems to draw closer is when I pull away. This is why a BB version of MEM's actions have helped. As it appears to me, maybe incorrectly, she wants me within site, but not connected. When I become busier or run late or do activities without her, she seems concerned or curious. Id imagine this is a threat to her end game. Once she sees I'm home. or sees me actively participating in B3's development on the living room floor, she goes back into her ipad zone. 

Its that middle zone that I cant get to. She cares when I'm not there. Doesnt care when I'm home or with her. The problem here is that she remains reactive. Meaning she only shows some form of "love" or concern when she senses distance. 

How can I inspire her.

And also.. "inspire her". Am I trying to convince her to love me? Am I trying to convince her I'm the right guy or that I'm a lovable guy? Is this normal business or is this something you do when you have a child and you're trying to save the marriage.

If this were month 4 or even 1 year into our relationship, I would absolutely not feel the need to inspire someone to love me or grow with me. Am I misunderstanding it? Success to me doesnt look like convincing someone to love me.


----------



## MEM2020

What did B2 act like during the year prior to you proposing to her? 






BostonBruins32 said:


> not seeing it as shaming. i see what jld is trying to get across.
> 
> the only issue is that these are real life things that happened. so when we try to brush aside b2's wrong doings for the greater good, it becomes really painful. and appears to be very one sided.
> 
> i dont think thats jld intent, i'm just saying thats the human element here that I think WOM and maybe john are recognizing.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> What did B2 act like during the year prior to you proposing to her?


Very close to me. Affectionate. At times maybe a little reliant on me. Did lots of things with her friends, as did I with mine(much more free time without having B3). She always kind of looked for me and wanted to be around me. Sexually pretty active. 2x per week ish, totally good with me. hinted at rings. i would say she seemed more confident (thus part of my sahm not helping the problem theory). She wasnt locked into her laptop as much as now, though still used it but probably as much as i do. Not very covert or secretive. 

thoughts?


----------



## john117

Was she as interested in material things as she is today?


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Was she as interested in material things as she is today?


never interested in shoes or purses (like many women) and still isnt today. 

Seemed a bit more modest with her car (she bought a corolla after college). and seemed more than happy to move into my 2br modest apartment at the time. She doesnt come from much money.

A lot of our friends over the past 5 years have bought houses and cars etc that I think portray a keeping up with the joneses. This got worse with the creation of facebook. Everyone posts everything (mostly the wives). Somewhere around 2008 she also met that friend who lives a lavish entitled lifestyle including grocery service, nannying, lawn care etc despite the fact that shes a stay at home mom. I swear she wants to be her. This friend doesnt buy gucci bags or expensive shoes either. She just demands full service at home, as she comes from a wealthy background. This is the only friend we have that I can think of who's husband makes more $ than I. This is also the only friend's husband that I have known exactly what he makes because his wife tells my wife and my wife tells me. 

I realize thats offtopic. But i just thought of it along the way.


----------



## Openminded

She may love you but it's entirely on her terms. Maybe she'll change and maybe not. The idea of divorce probably alarms her because she very much wants that dream she has (but the question is will she do the necessary work to get it).


----------



## john117

It's hardly off topic. Could the root cause of her resentment be that she is not like her entitled grocery service friend several years into marrying you? And that to B2, escaping into social media is escaping into a reality other than what she has now? An escape?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



john117 said:


> It's hardly off topic. Could the root cause of her resentment be that she is not like her entitled grocery service friend several years into marrying you? And that to B2, escaping into social media is escaping into a reality other than what she has now? An escape?


I think this has merit. But then the other side of that coin is what is she escaping from?

Disappointment in her current position mateialistically?

Disappointment in her intimacy level with BB?

What is she missing that makes her want to escape? 

I understand at the root of this is a character flaw, but understanding the why gives BB a place to start.


----------



## BostonBruins32

farsidejunky said:


> I think this has merit. But then the other side of that coin is what is she escaping from?
> 
> Disappointment in her current position mateialistically?
> 
> Disappointment in her intimacy level with BB?
> 
> What is she missing that makes her want to escape?
> 
> I understand at the root of this is a character flaw, but understanding the why gives BB a place to start.


right. thats just it. She didnt need to escape before. she needs to now. I'm listening closely to JLD and the softer side of this. But if you guys have read my posts from the start, i've long been concerned that her end game is keeping up with the joneses and then posting to facebook about it. I think i mentioned at one point months ago that if I were a teacher making $60k per year, she would not be with me. Honestly, I believe this. But i don't want to believe this so I'm listening to JLD to see where shes going.

now whats interesting is that I didnt really see this when we met. In fact when we met, I probably made the least amount of money out of all my friends. Crappy car. Crappy apartment etc. If you were looking in from the outside, you'd think I was the underdog. The only thing that looked good was that I was pursuing an MBA.. 

another interesting insight that makes me wonder is what seemed to be her stargazing interest in treeman and her ex. Even if it was just chatter online, both of these guys earn far less and both are very much not in good physical condition. Yet she was drawn to both. Her ex, maybe because your first love from 10 years ago always seems like a rosy memory. Treeman because he literally cant keep his tongue in his mouth drooling over her, and as proof through her selfie photos online, she lives for this attention.

its a twisted pretzel i cant figure out.


----------



## john117

I'm married to Dr. Entitled. She drives a BMW X3. She lives in a 6000 sq ft home. She wants an X5 and an 8000 sq ft home.

It's not the root cause of our conflict but it does stress her that some of her friends do have those. 

Damn it J2, I'm a psychologist / Photoshop peon, not a cardiologist like your buddies.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> Very close to me. Affectionate. At times maybe a little reliant on me. Did lots of things with her friends, as did I with mine(much more free time without having B3). She always kind of looked for me and wanted to be around me. Sexually pretty active. 2x per week ish, totally good with me. hinted at rings. i would say she seemed more confident (thus part of my sahm not helping the problem theory). She wasnt locked into her laptop as much as now, though still used it but probably as much as i do. Not very covert or secretive.
> 
> thoughts?


From before . . . I thought treeman was just a good friend from high school. I knew you did not like how close they were, but I did not remember anything about sexual conversations or anything like that. I thought by befriending him, he might open up and talk to you about your wife. Sorry if I seemed insensitive.

I still do not think he is a threat. He is just an orbiter. Don't give him more power than he has, which is almost none. Probably none.

Your wife really does not seem that unusual to me. You both were pretty independent before. It is not like Facebook is a brand new activity for her. It is probably just helping fill the greater void she feels now for comfort and stimulation. 

I called Dug earlier and he had a thought. You know how you do those tea parties with B3? You don't do them because you like tea parties. And you do not draw animals on napkins because you like to draw in restaurants. You love B3, and that motivates you to share her interests. Your reward is the joy of growing your relationship with her, and her resulting closeness to you. You can do the same thing with B2, BB.

I think reaching out to B2 through her facebook activities would surprise her, and maybe even annoy her a little at first. . But I bet she would also appreciate the interest.

Dug would never be on a forum on his own. But because he loves me, he gets involved. It is a huge investment in my Emotional Bank Account. I feel closer to him because he is sharing my interest, and then it becomes a mutual interest. Greater intimacy.

She already feels safer when you are with her, so that is good. I am telling you, she is into you, BB. Sure of it. Just Dug's presence is calming and reassuring to me.

Besides reaching out to her, in terms of her interests, how about starting a mutual project? Maybe something you both like, but she likes more, for starters?

As we get older, it is easy to take each other for granted and drift apart. Mutual projects can go a long way to thwarting growing apart.

Also, do you do anything together that makes you laugh? Some easing of tension might open her. She might feel like sharing more.

I think it must be hard for her to have a friend with so much more money. My brother is a millionaire, and my sil's life in no way resembles my own. Sigh. Even when you love your husband, it is hard not to wish for more means. But we all eventually come to terms with it.

Just saw your last post. She does _not _love those guys. She loves _you._

Now let's get her so tied into you, because you are meeting her deepest emotional needs, that infidelity is no longer a thought in your mind.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> she lives for this attention.


_You_ give her the attention. _You_ are the one she really wants it from.

Invest in her.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> From before . . . I thought treeman was just a good friend from high school. I knew you did not like how close they were, but I did not remember anything about sexual conversations or anything like that. I thought by befriending him, he might open up and talk to you about your wife. Sorry if I seemed insensitive.
> 
> I still do not think he is a threat. He is just an orbiter. Don't give him more power than he has, which is almost none. Probably none.
> 
> Your wife really does not seem that unusual to me. You both were pretty independent before. It is not like Facebook is a brand new activity for her. It is probably just helping fill the greater void she feels now for comfort and stimulation.
> 
> I called Dug earlier and he had a thought. You know how you do those tea parties with B3? You don't do them because you like tea parties. And you do not draw animals on napkins because you like to draw in restaurants. You love B3, and that motivates you to share her interests. Your reward is the joy of growing your relationship with her, and her resulting closeness to you. You can do the same thing with B2, BB.
> 
> I think reaching out to B2 through her facebook activities would surprise her, and maybe even annoy her a little at first. . But I bet she would also appreciate the interest.
> 
> Dug would never be on a forum on his own. But because he loves me, he gets involved. It is a huge investment in my Emotional Bank Account. I feel closer to him because he is sharing my interest, and then it becomes a mutual interest. Greater intimacy.
> 
> She already feels safer when you are with her, so that is good. I am telling you, she is into you, BB. Sure of it. Just Dug's presence is calming and reassuring to me.
> 
> Besides reaching out to her, in terms of her interests, how about starting a mutual project? Maybe something you both like, but she likes more, for starters?
> 
> As we get older, it is easy to take each other for granted and drift apart. Mutual projects can go a long way to thwarting growing apart.
> 
> Also, do you do anything together that makes you laugh? Some easing of tension might open her. She might feel like sharing more.
> 
> I think it must be hard for her to have a friend with so much more money. My brother is a millionaire, and my sil's life in no way resembles my own. Sigh. Even when you love your husband, it is hard not to wish for more means. But we all eventually come to terms with it.
> 
> Just saw your last post. She does _not _love those guys. She loves _you._
> 
> Now let's get her so tied into you, because you are meeting her deepest emotional needs, that infidelity is no longer a thought in your mind.


she has a boat load of ex boyfriends and guys within a 15 mile radius of her town because "everyone knew everyone". which is 100% bs, because when she was 15 in HS, she didnt know all the guys who were 11 years old and lived 3 towns over or all the guys who were19 and lived 3 towns over. I digress. 

so taking an interest in what she likes. yep. when she went to the gym routinely a while back, she'd invite me to do yoga. I would go and looked like a doofus being the only guy. I also have picked up tickets to concerts for folk band she likes because "you have to hear them, they're just so good". She loves these mystery tv shows that are on at 10 or 11pm, so I have a few times per week stayed up with her and we've watched/disected together. Mind you i wake up at 5am and she at 7 or 8 depending on b3. 

Are these the wrong things? Is facebook the dagger here? I am not really excited about engaging in "liking" all her selfies or joining her boyfriends in comments on her photos or quizzes. Maybe I need to do that more?

As for making her laugh. This is very easy (if shes not on her ipad). I can crack her up daily, and end up doing so without trying. 

We've done some house projects together. She likes this, but gets very highly stressed during it. Its like she loves getting it done, but its filled with pain points. We both like traveling and day trips, as those are probably the best of times for us. The past few years its been less meaningful because shes had her head buried in the iphone for the 4 hour drive rather than just chatting and bonding. 

So my point is, we can have fun. We had it in past days. But losing her every night from 7-10 or 7-11 and in car rides etc is just kind of extreme. 

JLD, i'm not just blowing smoke up your @ss. I really feel like I've tried to get involved in the things that mean something to her.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> _You_ give her the attention. _You_ are the one she really wants it from.
> 
> Invest in her.


see my post. 


remember, I compliment her physically DAILY. I compliment different things to keep her off balance. " your hair looks really good" .. "you smell great" ... "I love that shirt on you"..

etc etc. 

I havent heard a compliment I think since 2013? or no..sorry i heard a "nice haircut" compliment earlier this year. (we've dressed up and been to 5 weddings this year, odds are at some point shed notice?  )

I think ive fed the beast too much. rather than not enough.. but .. i'm listening to you perspective.


----------



## jld

Have not finished your posts yet, but just briefly: *Yes, Absolutely, You Should Be Very Visible On Her Facebook Page. *

Think about it, BB.

Am I clear?


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Have not finished your posts yet, but just briefly: *Yes, Absolutely, You Should Be Very Visible On Her Facebook Page. *
> 
> Think about it, BB.
> 
> Am I clear?


Ok. i can try that. 

just feels really strange that i need to compete with her boyfriends to be relevant on facebook.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> she has a boat load of ex boyfriends and guys within a 15 mile radius of her town because "everyone knew everyone". which is 100% bs, because when she was 15 in HS, she didnt know all the guys who were 11 years old and lived 3 towns over or all the guys who were19 and lived 3 towns over. I digress.
> 
> so taking an interest in what she likes. yep. when she went to the gym routinely a while back, she'd invite me to do yoga. I would go and looked like a doofus being the only guy. I also have picked up tickets to concerts for folk band she likes because "you have to hear them, they're just so good". She loves these mystery tv shows that are on at 10 or 11pm, so I have a few times per week stayed up with her and we've watched/disected together. Mind you i wake up at 5am and she at 7 or 8 depending on b3.
> 
> Are these the wrong things? Is facebook the dagger here? I am not really excited about engaging in "liking" all her selfies or joining her boyfriends in comments on her photos or quizzes. Maybe I need to do that more?
> 
> As for making her laugh. This is very easy (if shes not on her ipad). I can crack her up daily, and end up doing so without trying.
> 
> We've done some house projects together. She likes this, but gets very highly stressed during it. Its like she loves getting it done, but its filled with pain points. We both like traveling and day trips, as those are probably the best of times for us. The past few years its been less meaningful because shes had her head buried in the iphone for the 4 hour drive rather than just chatting and bonding.
> 
> So my point is, we can have fun. We had it in past days. But losing her every night from 7-10 or 7-11 and in car rides etc is just kind of extreme.
> 
> JLD, i'm not just blowing smoke up your @ss. *I really feel like I've tried to get involved in the things that mean something to her.*


You are right; you are already doing some great things! 

Thanks so much for this post; I am more convinced than ever that you will be successful. 

BB, all these things you recount are how you have tied the strings of love around you two already. 

Oh, BB, I am sure she adores you. Whatever happened last fall must make her feel terrible inside. It was probably just some flirting, but she knows it is wrong and not the person she really wants to be. She really wants to be good to you. 

Do you see that all the things she does do for you, the little notes, the regular sex, are her equivalent of the TV shows you watch with her?

I am glad to hear you talk about the shows together. That offers some bonding. I am assuming you talk on the way to the concerts, too. Talking, especially heartfelt, is so important.

Glad to hear you went to yoga! Shows inner security! 

Dug used to go to LLL meetings with me, BB. He would help watch the kids while the moms talked, or even sometimes sat in on the meetings. The other moms were so impressed. 

You are going to do great. I just know it!

About the iPad--you are going to be involved in facebook now, showing interest, being supportive. You are gradually going to replace her teddy bear with a real live teddy bear. 

You need to be her comfort, BB. You need to be her safe harbor. She needs to just feel that whatever she has done, BB is going to be strong enough to hear it. You can work through it. 

We all have voids in our lives. They are going to be filled. By filling her voids with you, she will not have the guilty conscience of sort of filling it with the attention from another man. 

And you are going to be so available to fill those voids, so appealing with your lack of judgment, and your comforting, reassuring presence, that turning to you to share the sorrows of her heart is going to become second nature. 

You are going to be successful. I feel like congratulating you already!


----------



## MEM2020

Four years of feeding the twin headed beasts of entitlement and laziness. 

And you still compliment her appearance daily - even though the core of everything broken is the behavioral patterns that you actively encouraged for all those years. 

You want the woman you met back? You're going to have to steadily and relentless undo - what you've done. 

But there will be no unwinding any marital tangle while your affect is angry and resentful. 

This I know for certain. Until you fully own your part in creating this spoiled, lazy wife you have - your anger will prevent you from undoing what you did. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> see my post.
> 
> 
> remember, I compliment her physically DAILY. I compliment different things to keep her off balance. " your hair looks really good" .. "you smell great" ... "I love that shirt on you"..
> 
> etc etc.
> 
> I havent heard a compliment I think since 2013? or no..sorry i heard a "nice haircut" compliment earlier this year. (we've dressed up and been to 5 weddings this year, odds are at some point shed notice?  )
> 
> I think ive fed the beast too much. rather than not enough.. but .. i'm listening to you perspective.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Four years of feeding the twin headed beasts of entitlement and laziness.
> 
> And you still compliment her appearance daily - even though the core of everything broken is the behavioral patterns that you actively encouraged for all those years.
> 
> You want the woman you met back? You're going to have to steadily and relentless undo - what you've done.
> 
> But there will be no unwinding any marital tangle while your affect is angry and resentful.
> 
> This I know for certain. Until you fully own your part in creating this spoiled, lazy wife you have - your anger will prevent you from undoing what you did.


I know mem. 

this is the foot off the pedal thing that I have to be careful about. this is me veering off the course when things started seeming a little better. 

i know you're right.


----------



## john117

In order to undo the work you have to more or less nuke the whole relationship... Which will build even more resentment. 

It's the right thing to do but like many things it may not be worth the effort.


----------



## MEM2020

No no no!

Abso-fvcking-lutely NOT. This is the worst kind of appeasement.

This type behavior just feeds the monster. You will NEVER keep other guys away from B2 in this manner. 

Your only path is to remove B2's desire to flirt (or worse) with other men. 

Step 1:
Boston, your W is shallow and narcissistic. Your daily compliments on her appearance when made in the context of her lazy, secretive and disengaged conduct FEED her belief that her appearance is more important than her conduct. You are amplifying her broken value set. 

Going forward, those comments need to be limited to special events where she gets super spiffed up. 

They are to be replaced with behavioral feedback characterized by an economy of speech and a low affect. 

- I like how you handled X with B3. 
- You were kind to your mother today. 
- The next time you want to play good cop with B3, ask yourself whether you are putting her needs first, or yours.
- I sure hope that B3 doesn't grow up to speak to you the way you spoke to your mother today.

And as for her reactions. In the beginning she will attempt to debate you. Shut that down. It isn't hard. Use the emotional anaesthetic tools provided a day or two back and then tell her the truth:

I'm giving you honest feedback because you are better than that. If you don't want to accept the truth, that's your choice. But I'm not going to debate the truth with you. 






BostonBruins32 said:


> Ok. i can try that.
> 
> just feels really strange that i need to compete with her boyfriends to be relevant on facebook.


----------



## MEM2020

*She has a Facebook addiction and secretive security settings. And Boston is supposed to put his smiling face of approval on that? 
This isn't love - any more than offering to do shots with an alcoholic is love. 

*


QUOTE=BostonBruins32;10882362]Ok. i can try that. 

just feels really strange that i need to compete with her boyfriends to be relevant on facebook.[/QUOTE]



jld said:


> Have not finished your posts yet, but just briefly: *Yes, Absolutely, You Should Be Very Visible On Her Facebook Page. *
> 
> Think about it, BB.
> 
> Am I clear?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> *She has a Facebook addiction and secretive security settings. And Boston is supposed to put his smiling face of approval on that?
> This isn't love - any more than offering to do shots with an alcoholic is love. *


Not approval. He is going to get informed about what she is doing there, who she is with, what interests her there. It will help him understand her better. Kind of like chaperoning at one of your kids' high school dances, or driving the neighborhood carpool to school.

The idea is to see what is feeding her there, and for BB to start feeding her himself. I want her deeply into _him_, not Facebook.

MEM, she is not going to respond to control techniques. If she perceives BB as judging her, she will retreat deeper into her private world. And cue the eye rolls.


----------



## farsidejunky

Here is where I have to part from you, JLD. I think Mem is right in that the hiding needs to go before any real progress can be made.


----------



## jld

But how is that going to happen, far? She is an adult. She has the right to privacy. And her walls are up pretty high.

I don't think this gal is going to open up from having control techniques used on her. I think she will shut down even more.

I really think earning her trust, through empathy and genuine interest and care, is the only way to her heart. And that is what I want for BB, far: her heart.


----------



## farsidejunky

Is it not possible to do both? To enforce a boundary while still being vulnerable?


----------



## john117

Hours spent every day while neglecting BB and B3's needs is not "privacy"...

Simulate a failure of the house wifi to get her on a home computer with key logger...


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Is it not possible to do both? To enforce a boundary while still being vulnerable?


I think when the trust is higher, this could be a very good idea. But we have to work on the trust first. Without that, it is like brakes without pads.

I want BB to have influence over his wife. I think a very good way to get that is to start by reaching out to her via her interests. He needs to hang around her more. Really be present. He can pick up on a lot that way.

With that knowledge, he will understand her better. He will likely begin to reach out unconsciously, with empathy. They will have common subjects to talk about from her Facebook activities. She will start to share more.

Eventually, I believe she will start to lower her walls. As she feels his love and interest, his influence will grow. At that point, I think she would be open to cutting back on Facebook.

You cannot rip a teddy bear out of a child's hands without creating major trauma. You go slowly, gradually replacing one object of affection with another: from the teddy bear to BB.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Hours spent every day while neglecting BB and B3's needs is not "privacy"...
> 
> Simulate a failure of the house wifi to get her on a home computer with key logger...


But he does not want a divorce. Not deep down. 

He loves this girl, John. And she loves him.


----------



## john117

She has a strange way of showing it...

Even if she does love him how do you overcome the 95% effort for 5% gain?


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

Now you're making this about one of your triggers. As soon as you think any man is even in the general vicinity of trying to CONTROL his wife, you engage in a verbal game of twister. 

I did not suggest that Boston in any way try to punish B2 for her Facebook behavior. 

I'm simply saying that he not give it his blessing. 

And I'm going to keep saying that. And I'm going to keep encouraging him to reject false intimacy - which is the whole game of going shopping when in fact he's simply being used as a prop for Facebook pictures and as a driver so she can play on her phone. 

And that's called: giving your spouse honest feedback by not rewarding their bad behavior. 

What you are suggesting isn't the opposite of control, it's flat out enabling her. 



QUOTE=jld;10883938]But how is that going to happen, far? She is an adult. She has the right to privacy. And her walls are up pretty high.

I don't think this gal is going to open up from having control techniques used on her. I think she will shut down even more.

I really think earning her trust, through empathy and genuine interest and care, is the only way to her heart. And that is what I want for BB, far: her heart.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> She has a strange way of showing it...
> 
> Even if she does love him how do you overcome the 95% effort for 5% gain?


BB has talked about his perceptions, and how he feels they differ from his wife. My understanding of that is that he believes she _is_ showing him love, but in her way, not his.

I don't think the only gain would be 5%. I know it seems unfair, if you believe in equal marriage theory, that BB has to get the ball rolling, and has to be patient until he starts to see some response. I do think that when her trust is high enough, she will be able to hear his heart, and not just completely run away. Or at least not stay away for long.

John, he does not want a divorce. The control techniques will not open up her deepest heart. The way I see it, the 7 Habits empathy/empowerment approach is the only hope for long term growth and success.

Just saw your post, MEM; back in a minute.


----------



## john117

No disagreement, jld, and 5% is a start. But they both need to own up to their issues and address them. This is not easy to do in an incremental fashion, ie a little at a time.

They have to agree to measurable, tangible, and attainable goals. For both. And have weekly reviews of progress. 

That's how my team runs at work (we call it scrum or agile). 

Define a baseline of what they have, where they want to go, and what steps to take. Split the goals, report on status, verify, monitor...

They can use the techniques you and MEM recommend. But until they first agree on what the issues of the marriage are, who will do what, and so on it's all some theoretical thread out there.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Now you're making this about one of your triggers. As soon as you think any man is even in the general vicinity of trying to CONTROL his wife, you engage in a verbal game of twister.
> 
> I did not suggest that Boston in any way try to punish B2 for her Facebook behavior.
> 
> I'm simply saying that he not give it his blessing.
> 
> And I'm going to keep saying that. And I'm going to keep encouraging him to reject false intimacy - which is the whole game of going shopping when in fact he's simply being used as a prop for Facebook pictures and as a driver so she can play on her phone.
> 
> And that's called: giving your spouse honest feedback by not rewarding their bad behavior.
> 
> What you are suggesting isn't the opposite of control, it's flat out enabling her.


I read your post to Dug over the phone, and he said that he actually thinks BB should be encouraged by his wife's taking pictures of him and B3 and posting them on Facebook. Dug says it means B2 is proud of BB and B3. He said BB should be worried if she did _not_ want to show them off.

Perceptions again?

Running to the store, back soon.


----------



## In Absentia

it would be nice to have some "normal" women on TAM from time to time...


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> - The next time you want to play good cop with B3, ask yourself whether you are putting her needs first, or yours.
> - I sure hope that B3 doesn't grow up to speak to you the way you spoke to your mother today.


I am concerned that if BB says this to B2, she will feel judged and will further shut down. My goal is to make her feel understood by BB, even if he does not agree with her behavior.

Example: "Honey, you seemed frustrated with your mom today. It really seems to bother you when she does x. Would you like to talk about it?"

He can validate her feelings without agreeing with her behavior. He can suggest, and model, ways she can deal more effectively, and respectfully, with her mom. And because she does not feel judged by him, her walls will be low enough to actually listen to him.



> And as for her reactions. In the beginning she will attempt to debate you. Shut that down. It isn't hard. Use the emotional anaesthetic tools provided a day or two back and then tell her the truth:


I would suggest active listening instead. Validate her feelings; do not feel obligated to agree with her behavior. Empathy builds trust, and trust is the key to intimacy.



> I'm giving you honest feedback because you are better than that. If you don't want to accept the truth, that's your choice. But I'm not going to debate the truth with you.


Are we sure BB has the truth? Does B2 have her own truth? Who gets to decide?

Again, anything perceived as judgment and silencing from BB to his wife is likely to result in her further shutting down. I am pushing for the opening of her heart through empathy.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> No disagreement, jld, and 5% is a start. But they both need to own up to their issues and address them. This is not easy to do in an incremental fashion, ie a little at a time.
> 
> They have to agree to measurable, tangible, and attainable goals. For both. And have weekly reviews of progress.
> 
> That's how my team runs at work (we call it scrum or agile).
> 
> Define a baseline of what they have, where they want to go, and what steps to take. Split the goals, report on status, verify, monitor...
> 
> They can use the techniques you and MEM recommend. But until they first agree on what the issues of the marriage are, who will do what, and so on it's all some theoretical thread out there.


I don't think she is ready for that. I think she would feel completely overwhelmed and threatened. Shut down. Then what does BB do?

Imo, BB, with his leadership experience, would be in a better position to get the ball rolling. Using empathy to build trust, etc.

When she is more open to him, it would be fine to have a heart to heart on the responsibilities of marriage. I think going home and demanding she take 50% responsibility for his perceptions of the failings of the marriage might be overwhelming.

On the other hand . . . 

He could just initiate a heart to heart. "B2, whatever happened a year ago does not leave my mind. I feel hurt that I do not know for sure what happened. Can you help me with that?"

He could ask straight out for access to her Facebook accounts, and tell her why. He could tell her that he has a secret thread that she might be interested in, too.


----------



## john117

And you could put the resulting epic fight on Pay Per View...

Job One is to find out if there is an EA in progress. If not, deFaceBooking should be simple. I would not bother with passwords etc.

Job Two is to mutually agree to her limiting iPad time to an hour a night and use the time for other things.

Job Three is to start working to move closer to each other preferably with a therapist.

Anything else is a waste of time I'm afraid. If she balks at any steps then game over.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> And you could put the resulting epic fight on Pay Per View...
> 
> Job One is to find out if there is an EA in progress. If not, deFaceBooking should be simple. I would not bother with passwords etc. What do you mean by deFacebooking?
> 
> Job Two is to mutually agree to her limiting iPad time to an hour a night and use the time for other things. But how to get her to agree?
> 
> Job Three is to start working to move closer to each other preferably with a therapist. Hasn't she refused counseling? What would you suggest BB do to get her to go?
> 
> Anything else is a waste of time I'm afraid. If she balks at any steps then game over. But he is not ready for game over.


----------



## john117

DeFaceBooking - wean her off Facebook at least by limiting to an hour a day - and if possible, eliminate or greatly reduce interaction with negative influences.

To agree BB needs to offer a carrot. If she needs nothing from him that he's not currently providing then the whole thing is a waste.

Counseling comes as a consequence of the first two parts. There are systemic problems they can't solve alone.

If they can't work together to solve said problems then it's curtains.


----------



## jld

I think her leaving Facebook is a great idea. But how to get the buy in?

Oh, I get it now. Withdraw from her so she feels anxious? Use that as leverage to get her to agree to what he wants?


----------



## john117

Yes and no. 

The 180 here would be catastrophic because she has expressed the need for space, is already living an alternate reality online, etc. It will work about as well a my 190 did :rofl: Anxiety works in some cases but not everywhere. 

The whole idea here is "common goals". BB and B2 need to define some common goals and a path to them. If they can't define common goals then success is unlikely regardless of the approach taken.

I'm speaking from experience here as a husband, father,and lead guy at work. Humans are goal seeking and goals have the allure of a reward. Or the fear of failure.


----------



## In Absentia

Total DeFaceBooking? She'll never agree to that... limiting? Maybe...


----------



## BostonBruins32

B3 got up nice and early so im just now reading this. exhausting.

JLD, I am not logging into facebook to like her selfies with the other guys. I dont think shes having an affair on there or in real life, but I'm not going to feed the monster. We're 30 yr old adults, not 15 year old girls who facebook message each other while in the same room. I know what her interests are, as you said i live with her. I would sincerely argue that if joining her activities, validating them, on facebook is the glue to this marriage, then this marriage is a sham. 

I am a helpy helperton/complimenter by nature. Ive always received good reactions from teammates, coworkers etc by recognizing efforts and or helping them. so shutting this off is hard but necessary. I admit, as things felt better earlier this year, I fell into the habit of giving her honest compliments when I saw them fit. Daily there is something worth it, so it comes easy.

But i agree i dont think it helps. 

JLD, i like you kindness and approach to many things. Unfortunately, this sorta feels like we're reducing the alocholics supply from a 18 pack per day to a 17 pack per day. and reducing the drunk driving from 5 times a week to 3. 

Again, I'm listening to what your saying. I am just struggling to see how it works. I also feel a little bit like you're trying to poke at me a bit regarding leading and being "angry". I get it, I have to move first. But I dont know if this is the healthy manner to do so.


----------



## jld

Could you explain the poking part?

I am not a big fan of complimenting a person's appearance either. I agree with MEM that character qualities are what should be recognized.

I also agree that holding the reins on materialism is an excellent idea. We all need to live within our means.

I doubt she is having an affair either. She may be flirting, but she might just be pouring her heart out to people who she feels safe to talk to. I want _you_ to be the person she feels safe to talk to.

Remember how I brought up how your dad could earn your trust? I could have brought up a coach, a boss, or some other role model/leader in your life. Someone who has a lot of influence over the direction of your life.

BB, I think you hold a power position in your wife's life, but you may not realize it. Yes, you could withdraw more, destabilize her, make her anxious, etc. She might feel scared enough to agree to whatever you wanted. 

But while you might get outward conformity that way, I think her heart would be driven underground. I think she would be too scared to ever be transparent with you. And that is my ultimate goal for you: to be given her whole heart, unreservedly, because her trust in you is so great.

I would encourage you to use the 7 Habits to improve your marriage. I think being a role model of personal integrity to your wife, in your words and actions, is part of inspiring her. I think using empathy, seeking to understand where she is coming from, what she is getting from the activities you find unhealthy, and then using the influence you have gained from your own good example to inspire her onto a healthier path would be helpful to your marriage.


----------



## In Absentia

This probably has been said before... I don't remember... maybe you wife thinks that all you do you do it to get sex? Maybe she sees it like that. She feels pressurised? My wife was like this. It wasn't true, obviously, but that was her perception of my actions.

Be nice to her without the pressure of sex. She might come around or she might just think "great!" and it will get even worse... after a few months, you'll know...

This is from somebody who's tried all of this and failed... so take it with a pinch (or maybe two) of salt...


----------



## jld

BB, when I asked you if you were angry, did you feel I was criticizing you? Is that what the poking meant?

I was just trying to understand what you were feeling. Asking questions is my way of seeking to understand. I am not always good at reading between the lines.

Perceptions again, I think. We all interpret each other's behavior. But what I meant may not have been what you understood. And if we do not both feel safe enough to be open and honest, we will not be able to resolve any hurt feelings.

I have never meant to hurt your feelings. I tried very hard not to hurt MEM's, either. I know he and I see things differently as to how to improve your marriage, but I do not doubt for one minute that he absolutely cares about you and wants the best for you. I know his motives, and mine, are pure.

BB, clearly, you know yourself and your marriage best. Maybe sitting down today with your wife and just laying all your feelings on the line would be best. No outcome expectation, just let the chips fall where they may. 

It might jolt her into a paradigm shift. She might get where you are coming from and be inspired to change her ways. You could really cut to the chase. I think that is what far was saying when he suggested sending her the link to this thread.

At least it would all be out there. No guessing. You would be a model of transparency.

I can tell you I do not have the emotional energy to hide anything from Dug for more than a few minutes. I just have to get it out there. He has made it safe for me to do so. 

I could not live without total transparency in my marriage. I encourage it for others, too. It forces couples to grow. It is painful initially, but in the long term I think it is much lighter.


----------



## john117

In Absentia said:


> Be nice to her without the pressure of sex. She might come around or she might just think "great!" and it will get even worse... after a few months, you'll know...



It does not work because it's not about sex. It's about being there. I tried it as well, and it was how the "95% effort for 5% gain" statement was postulated.


----------



## In Absentia

john117 said:


> It does not work because it's not about sex. It's about being there. I tried it as well, and it was how the "95% effort for 5% gain" statement was postulated.


well, I tried too... and, as I said, I failed... I was just hoping that maybe BB's case is not a complete lost cause...


----------



## john117

jld said:


> BB, clearly, you know yourself and your marriage best. Maybe sitting down today with your wife and just laying all your feelings on the line would be best. No outcome expectation, just let the chips fall where they may.
> 
> 
> 
> It might jolt her into a paradigm shift. She might get where you are coming from and be inspired to change her ways. You could really cut to the chase. I think that is what far was saying when he suggested sending her the link to this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> At least it would all be out there. No guessing. You would be a model of transparency.



As they say in Pokemon, indifference trumps transparency every time. Someone could reveal he's the long lost love child of JFK and Miley Cyrus conceived via time machine and to an indifferent spouse it might as well be normal.

Without outcome expectation there can be no progress. No goals. You're telling her she's not good enough but not what you expect. Maybe someone with a few ounces more of empathy would recognize it bit if empathy was plentiful would we be there today?

Reading this thread would have minimal effect and would likely validate her view... "TAM is a place for sex starved husbands blah blah". Back to the comfort of Facebook.

I'm sorry to be so negative but fundamentally you believe in the goodness of people while I don't. You've seen the dark side, granted, but you aren't living it 24/7. Like most Europeans, I'm not afflicted with the spell of "Optinismus Americanus" (hence I don't get it's benefits either ) but just trying to be level here... It's a fight between good and indifferent or between good and self centered. No good way for a truce there.

Without clear and meaningful consequences there can be no change. To paraphrase Conrade Mao, "real power comes from the pen of the lawyer"...


----------



## Duguesclin

BB, if I understand correctly, you do not want to feed the monster by giving your wife attention on Facebook. You acknowledge that she is on Facebook because she seeks attention. Somehow, seeking attention is bad.

You want attention but you do not want to give it to her. How is it going to work? It is like your wife is a flower and her leaves are starting to wilt. You are saying she is getting too much water. I should not give her more. It does not make sense.

Give her the attention she needs and she will be able to give you some back.

If you feel uncomfortable to give her positive feedback on her appearance, focus instead on actions or behaviors where she displays true beauty. You are far better off promoting good behavior than discouraging bad behavior. In the latter case, you wife will not know what is good behavior and will feel judged.


----------



## Duguesclin

John, reading your last post, you seem to assume BB is in the right and his wife in the wrong. He somehow needs to bring her to his level.

I rather think that BB is in one place, neither right or wrong, and his wife is in a different place, neither right or wrong. They need to move to a compromise, to a married place. Both have to move. Not only one.


----------



## In Absentia

oops... looks like I posted my previous answer in the wrong thread... the one with "abnormal" women... can't use John's trademarked (TM) definition... 

Sorry about that!  Please, disregard it...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I'm sorry to be so negative but fundamentally you believe in the goodness of people while I don't. You've seen the dark side, granted, but you aren't living it 24/7. Like most Europeans, I'm not afflicted with the spell of "Optinismus Americanus" (hence I don't get it's benefits either ) but just trying to be level here... It's a fight between good and indifferent or between good and self centered. No good way for a truce there.
> 
> Without clear and meaningful consequences there can be no change. To paraphrase Conrade Mao, "real power comes from the pen of the lawyer"...


Well, I think there is real power in transparency. When BB shared his heart with her many months ago, she cried and showed her feelings to him. His transparency activated her expression. I think further sharing of his heart, showing vulnerability, could do the same.

But it has to be vulnerability. Feeling words. "B2, I miss you. I miss the times we used to share bonding in the car on trips. I miss hearing your thoughts. I miss the feeling of closeness between us, the feeling that I could comfort you as you told me your worries, or laugh with you when you told me funny stories."

"B2, I want that back. How can we get it back?"


----------



## john117

And what follow up action was taken after the requisite years were shed?

More Facebook if I had to guess...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> And what follow up action was taken after the requisite years were shed?
> 
> More Facebook if I had to guess...


Iirc, he did not follow up on the convo. It was just dropped, apparently. That is why I added the question at the end.

John, I think where you and the other guys differ from Dug and me is where you think the power in the relationship lies. 

To you and the others, it is clearly with BB's wife. She needs to stop facebook, meet BB's needs, parent in the way BB wants her to, buy the gifts BB wants, etc. To you, she holds the power to making BB happy. She holds the key to the marriage.

To Dug and me, BB is the key to the marriage. He has the leadership experience. He has the ability to get into her mind and help her. When she feels emotionally safe with him, the walls will come down and she will freely share her heart with him. And I think it is her heart that he misses.

Depending on her to change does indeed give her the power. Deciding he is going to reach out keeps the power in his hands.


----------



## jorgegene

john117 said:


> As they say in Pokemon, indifference trumps transparency every time. Someone could reveal he's the long lost love child of JFK and Miley Cyrus conceived via time machine and to an indifferent spouse it might as well be normal.
> 
> Without outcome expectation there can be no progress. No goals. You're telling her she's not good enough but not what you expect. Maybe someone with a few ounces more of empathy would recognize it bit if empathy was plentiful would we be there today?
> 
> Reading this thread would have minimal effect and would likely validate her view... "TAM is a place for sex starved husbands blah blah". Back to the comfort of Facebook.
> 
> I'm sorry to be so negative but fundamentally you believe in the goodness of people while I don't. You've seen the dark side, granted, but you aren't living it 24/7. Like most Europeans, I'm not afflicted with the spell of "Optinismus Americanus" (hence I don't get it's benefits either ) but just trying to be level here... It's a fight between good and indifferent or between good and self centered. No good way for a truce there.
> 
> Without clear and meaningful consequences there can be no change. To paraphrase Conrade Mao, "real power comes from the pen of the lawyer"...


I agree. some people are just intractable. Not saying B2 is 
(i wouldn't know), but some people are..........


----------



## john117

The true sign of intractability is the willingness to destroy the marriage via actions (space, tree guy, indifference) instead of doing what most married women have no problem doing.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> The true sign of intractability is the willingness to destroy the marriage via actions (space, tree guy, indifference) instead of doing what most married women have no problem doing.


Which is what? 

She is displaying some love and affection, in her own way. 

Has he been specific with what he expects, like saying he wants four Bruins tickets on his next birthday?


----------



## john117

This isn't transactional I'm afraid. 

It's all about a balanced relationship. That is what gets you to the 95/5 rule. She may be offering 5% improvement to BB's 95% but it's not progressing. Meaning in her mind she has reached steady state.


----------



## jld

John, did your wife used to nurture you, the first 25 years? She did things that made you feel loved and cared for? 

And then, five years ago, she stopped the nurturing behavior? Is that basically what happened?


----------



## john117

There was some decline - as with most marriages - but at year 25 a whole bunch of bad things happened to her and all of a sudden it's hello BPD. 

But if you're talking storybook nurturing no, she never went to that extent. Not to me and not to her daughters or parents or anyone. Not outright hostile but not June Cleaver either. 

I am very independent and don't really need the level of care and feeding most husbands seem to demand . (Feeding maybe ). Likewise she was very independent and that is what attracted me to her. Unfortunately that did not work out very well...


----------



## jld

You're basically just lonely. You miss the closeness with your wife. 

I wonder if she is just tapped out by life. Losing her sister and her mom, her career not leading her to the millions she perhaps expected, her older daughter studying something that made her feel scared for her, worried about social status because her values are superficial (as is the case for many people from totalitarian regimes where materialism reigns). She is trapped by values that are not serving her, but she cannot even conceive of letting go of them.

And you really do not know how to help her. She just seems shut down. And you feel lonely and resentful because if she could just break herself out of her prison, you would be so happy to know her again. You feel like she is a shell of herself.

And the kids have paid a price, too.

I am sorry you have all suffered this, John. Every family seems to suffer in some way. I am scared every month to take ds15 to the BMT clinic. It will be very hard for us if we lose him.

I wish I could think of something more to say than I am sorry you are hurting. I hope someday your wife can break out, or you can find a way to reach her. She is clearly not happy either.


----------



## john117

Well, what makes us great or not great is how we deal with unfortunate things. Not with mundane things like what flavor of soda to buy.

But guess what. It's all about role models. Nothing I have ever gone thru compares to what my folks went thru in WW2 and beyond. 

To put this into BB's perspective... I wonder if part of their problem stems from the fact that they haven't faced anything serious in life yet? Boston, apologies for guessing here but do you feel your relationship would be better if it was more "battle tested"??? That maybe things went too easy up to this point?

I mean, I may stress over this or that but thinking what my parents went thru say 1945-1950... Nothing compares. 

That's what the common goals part is all about. I'm not suggesting Boston & B2 deliberately buy an old home and remodel it DIY just to feel the pain and thrill of joint "suffering" but anything where both partners have to do serious work together - a bleeping triathlon or century bike ride would do -...

We did just that from age 35 to 40, going back to get our doctorates with young kids in tow. I'm still amazed we did it. And guess what, we were a lot closer together. Helped each other with our work, endless walks on campus pushing a stroller while discussing this or that.... 

I need a drink or three :rofl:.


----------



## john117

Funny - we had both girls decked out in college spiritwear while we were in college. Our younger one was born right during fall break (good timing I know). Embarrassment galore when the professor announces to everyone that such and such had a baby  and still she took a midterm a week later. 

That was the best thing we did for our relationship. Trying to keep an eye on two kids and study and watch our team flop on the NCAA March Madness (when we actually made it, sigh). No iPad or Facebook for either of us, Windows 95 or 98 and clunky Microsoft Office 97 :rofl: 

Boston, maybe you and B2 do need such a challenge? It took tremendous amount of faith in ourselves to go part time on a fellowship (me) or quit work altogether (her) and go back to school at 35. I'm serious, could you think of a tough challenge you could undertake with B2? 

Maybe she does have too much time in her hands. That's dangerous.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I'm serious, could you think of a tough challenge you could undertake with B2?


An assignment abroad? She loved Europe. 

Lol, who doesn't?


----------



## jld

John, do you know if their educational levels are equivalent? It seems BB has changed a lot since they first met, and wants his spouse to grow and challenge herself similarly.

I can think of two couples, right in Dug's and my own families (siblings), who split up for that reason. No kids involved, though. 

Dug is really against divorce when there are kids. He says BB should have considered this aspect before he asked her to marry him. 

That sure would be hard, though, to not be with one's intellectual equal. I remember Dug's saying many years ago how important it is to grow together.


----------



## Trickster

jld said:


> John, do you know if their educational levels are equivalent? It seems BB has changed a lot since they first met, and wants his spouse to grow and challenge herself similarly.
> 
> I can think of two couples, right in Dug's and my own families (siblings), who split up for that reason. No kids involved, though.
> 
> Dug is really against divorce when there are kids. He says BB should have considered this aspect before he asked her to marry him.
> 
> That sure would be hard, though, to not be with one's intellectual equal. I remember Dug's saying many years ago how important it is to grow together.


Nobody can see the future. How will we ever know what we will grow in to 15 years from now. We all change.

We all change. Some more than others. We want our life partner to grow and change with us. What is wrong with that?


What happens when one spouse stays exactly the same while the other grows and changes? How is it possible to consider that when two people first meet?

As far as educational levels... Does that matter. Sometimes the ones with the less education has the most room to grow.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Funny - we had both girls decked out in college spiritwear while we were in college. Our younger one was born right during fall break (good timing I know). Embarrassment galore when the professor announces to everyone that such and such had a baby  and still she took a midterm a week later.
> 
> That was the best thing we did for our relationship. Trying to keep an eye on two kids and study and watch our team flop on the NCAA March Madness (when we actually made it, sigh). No iPad or Facebook for either of us, Windows 95 or 98 and clunky Microsoft Office 97 :rofl:
> 
> Boston, maybe you and B2 do need such a challenge? It took tremendous amount of faith in ourselves to go part time on a fellowship (me) or quit work altogether (her) and go back to school at 35. I'm serious, could you think of a tough challenge you could undertake with B2?
> 
> Maybe she does have too much time in her hands. That's dangerous.


i actually dont disagree about a challenge. 

the most likely of challenges is a DIY house or barn type thing. Its two fold. On one hand she does not trust me in taking on many projects, she gets nervous I may break everything. Which I understand, as I am not a carpenter or anywhere near it. The only thing that stinks is it stunts my growth, because she wont even let me try and fail on many projects (have to learn sometime right?). I learned the most about home improvement when B2 was pregnant (bed rest for 3 months) and just after. She was unable to come out and challenge my work during the process. she loved the end result, and I loved not being hounded when I broke board or screwed something wrong. 

but i digress. she likes DIY, she just likes weekend DIY stuff. Beyond this, she wants a professional. Fair enough.

I was offered a job last year over in Europe. I turned it down, didnt make sense at the time. she has said she'd like to revisit this if it comes up again. I am very concerned about her being a sahm in a foreign country without her mom and no friends nearby. this would cause her to rely mostly on me, and I'm not sure this is fair to her. 

We are at our best when we are on travel adventures. thats truly where we meet in the middle. planned. unplanned. fancy. cheap. hotel. camping. etc. This stuff costs money, but is very much part of what has brought us together. 

I'd also like to point out that this bomb that went off last october seems to have some weird effect on how she feels about us. meaning i get the impression she sees it as a battle scar she wears proudly. she has talked or emailed me (and i know mentioned to her close girls) that we went through a rough patch, ups and downs, and stuck it out and worked through it. some odd sense of pride she has in getting through the blow up. 

Interesting. The blow up delays my growth in feelings for her. The blow up makes her say we're doing even better than before. 

So this battle test.. theres something there.


ps...this was probably jibberish. i just did a 12 mile run at 5am this morning. have not hydrated yet. no time. as i'm typing while making b3 eggs and toast.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> John, do you know if their educational levels are equivalent? It seems BB has changed a lot since they first met, and wants his spouse to grow and challenge herself similarly.
> 
> I can think of two couples, right in Dug's and my own families (siblings), who split up for that reason. No kids involved, though.
> 
> Dug is really against divorce when there are kids. He says BB should have considered this aspect before he asked her to marry him.
> 
> That sure would be hard, though, to not be with one's intellectual equal. I remember Dug's saying many years ago how important it is to grow together.


Education levels are close-ish. I have MBA she doesnt. That's about it. She considers me the brains of the operation, though she knows more about daily random things (plants, wildlife, odd products i didnt know existed etc). We both have a thirst for knowledge, but different subject matters. Our drive is very different. 

Our motivation levels are lightyears different. She once told me "you have way more drive than anyone I've ever met". I've seen B2 quit on things, big and small, because she just wasnt up for the challenge. If something is competitive or outside her comfort zone, she essentially gives up. On the flip side, I still remember my math teacher making fun of me in front of the class about ever finding a successful job. I wasnt a great student and probably didnt give everything I could in class. I never forgot her making me feel stupid in class. I've kept that in my back pocket for years as a reminder that someone thinks I can't. By 28 yrs old, I was making much more money than said teacher. 

So yes, our desire to change and grow is very different. I'm not sure what that means in this case.


----------



## jld

It may not be an issue for you. Dug thinks you should make your marriage work, regardless, because you have a child.

My sister and her former partner (lesbians) met in their 20s, each working in a small town. Sister was a teacher, partner a secretary. After six years, sister interviewed for a sales position with a big company and entered corporate life. Partner followed.

The first few years were okay, but as sister got into her 30s, and moved up in the company, she was dissatisfied with partner's lack of interest in embracing change and growth. Partner was still pretty focused on her family back in her hometown, and had not progressed in her career field. 

Sister eventually met another woman at work who shared her ambition. They have been together the last 26 years.

Dug's brother was in a similar position. He had always had a more open mind than his wife. When he got a different job with a bigger company, in a bigger city, he started to move away from her. They finally divorced earlier this year, just shy of 20 years of marriage. 

He has a good job and now has lots of freedom to pursue his interests. She has met someone else, but I don't think the choices are as good at 47 as they would have been at 30.

Again, not saying it is an issue for you. But I have been discouraging divorce pretty strongly on this thread, and thought it only fair to mention one point that might weigh against that position. And I am not saying it cannot be overcome!


----------



## jld

Sheesh, now I feel guilty even mentioning that, BB. I really hope you will keep trying to make it work with your wife. 

The two examples I gave were ones without kids involved. Huge difference.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Trust me, I'm here because I'm trying to make something work. a child involved is all the difference in the world. Despite what Blonde says, I'm actually a pretty good parent and I owe B3 a very very fair effort.


----------



## jld

_Just saw your latest post, but want to share what I had just finished writing here anyway. Please take it in the genuine spirit of reflection it is offered in. Honestly, the last question is one we should all ask ourselves. _

I guess this might be a good time to just get down to brass tacks and ask: What are your deepest values, BB? Is it the money you make? Is it having a beautiful wife? 

Is it providing a stable environment for B3? Is it humbling yourself and genuinely reaching out to B2 in transparency and respect?

Just very honestly, who are you at your core?


----------



## john117

Come on BB your challenge is to take the job in Europe . Are we talking the UK or Italy or Latvia?

Challenge her to go to grad school otherwise. It's not like she's not wasting hours a day on the iPad. 

Don't feel bad about being made fun of. Happened to me in math class too. Part of the reason I studied psychology as a matter of fact. So I found an area where math is not too important and thrived. Failure in life in general takes a lot of effort.


----------



## MEM2020

By far the biggest single issue is that B2 is very wedded to the belief that your marriage is good right now. 

That is the case despite you:
- telling her directly you were unhappy with her commitment level and secrecy - and inappropriate contact with tree man, ex bf. So much so that you were not open to discussing a second child. 
- softly shutting down the idea of a bigger house

She is very focused on convincing herself and the wide world (via Facebook) that she is living the dream. 

-------
The dark comedy of this situation is that:
- you are in a very strong place, but act weak
- she's in a very weak place, but acts strong

Her bad habits combined with the 30 pounds of ballast she added during the marriage would make it extremely difficult to replace you with a guy - whose remotely like you. 

You on the other hand, would easily find a partner who meets you sort of close to 50-50.

-----------

And Boston - I'm not suggesting a harsh conversation. You can gently say: I don't feel close to you when you make so little effort to please me. 

And for all your progress, you don't seem willing to do what it takes. 

And you really owe her this at a bare minimum: 

I really worry about you. Because I'm afraid one day you are going to wake up, realize you are about out of runway for a second child and when you tell me that a second child is not optional, you discover that I am simply not willing to be locked in to another 18 years of being taken for granted. 

------
And that is the LIKELY scenario - given the way you two are pretending that everything is good. 






UOTE=BostonBruins32;10893106]Trust me, I'm here because I'm trying to make something work. a child involved is all the difference in the world. Despite what Blonde says, I'm actually a pretty good parent and I owe B3 a very very fair effort.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jld

I like that grad school idea, John. Heck, I like it for me!  I have spent way too much time on my own internet site addiction this last year . . . 

And I very much like the idea of BB's approaching his wife gently, whatever he says to her, MEM.


----------



## Duguesclin

MEM, BB needs to move away from power struggles. The idea that marriage is like diplomacy between the US and Iran is wrong.

BB and his wife need to get to a place where they give to each other instead of taking from each other. Power struggles do not get you there.

I like John's idea of a project.

From the time we met, my wife and I, our life has been in constant movement, full of challenges and changes. They have helped us stay connected and closer. We have hit some challenging times and have learned to adapt. One of our first major roadblocks has been when our first child was a few weeks old. I kept focusing on my daughter, wanting the best for her, while my wife was sinking into depression. It took me a while to realize I was focusing on the wrong person. I needed to take care of JLD, not my daughter. Once I adapted life got a lot easier.

Speaking of this subject, I am concerned that BB is way too focused on his daughter. What is important to children is happy parents.

With our son's cancer, I discovered an amazing dynamic in the parent child relationships. My wife and I saw children, very sick children, working hard to please their parents, to reassure their parents. Choosing gifts or wishes to please their parents.

We should not underestimate how important it is to a child to have a safe and stable home. To have happy parents.


----------



## PieceOfSky

john117 said:


> Try BPD
> 
> We had a good connection thru the first 25 years... But a series of unfortunate events, as the book says, was enough to destroy the relationship.
> 
> What one needs is to be adaptive and realistic. Not the easiest qualities to have when you're 50 years old.




Was peri-menopause and menopause a factor?


----------



## MEM2020

Dug,

Boston is already giving a LOT. His issue is not due to a lack of giving. 





Duguesclin said:


> MEM, BB needs to move away from power struggles. The idea that marriage is like diplomacy between the US and Iran is wrong.
> 
> BB and his wife need to get to a place where they give to each other instead of taking from each other. Power struggles do not get you there.
> 
> I like John's idea of a project.
> 
> From the time we met, my wife and I, our life has been in constant movement, full of challenges and changes. They have helped us stay connected and closer. We have hit some challenging times and have learned to adapt. One of our first major roadblocks has been when our first child was a few weeks old. I kept focusing on my daughter, wanting the best for her, while my wife was sinking into depression. It took me a while to realize I was focusing on the wrong person. I needed to take care of JLD, not my daughter. Once I adapted life got a lot easier.
> 
> Speaking of this subject, I am concerned that BB is way too focused on his daughter. What is important to children is happy parents.
> 
> With our son's cancer, I discovered an amazing dynamic in the parent child relationships. My wife and I saw children, very sick children, working hard to please their parents, to reassure their parents. Choosing gifts or wishes to please their parents.
> 
> We should not underestimate how important it is to a child to have a safe and stable home. To have happy parents.


----------



## Duguesclin

MEM11363 said:


> Dug,
> 
> Boston is already giving a LOT. His issue is not due to a lack of giving.


MEM, how much he has given is irrelevant. It is like you have traveled a 200 mile journey, thinking you should have already arrived, when you realize you still have 100 miles to go. Do you then go back because you have invested too much? No, you keep going until you get there.

It is the same concept as sunk cost in the financial world. You do not look back. You look forward.


----------



## john117

PieceOfSky said:


> Was peri-menopause and menopause a factor?



No, she was peri a couple years ago for a week  and menopausal since then. No symptoms. She has the same ObGyn guy since age 30 (awkward ) and nothing like menopause issues.


----------



## CuddleBug

The guy who figures this out will be a world celebrity over night and filthy rich.


What I've learned about my LD wifee over 15+ years of marriage.

She was LD because of her larger size, which made her extremely insecure but she did nothing about it until the last 7+ months or so. Now that she has lost 50 lbs, new clothes, braces on her teeth, new hairstyles and has a gym pass, going to the gym 3 - 4x every week, her attitude towards sex has gone from 1x month to 1 - 2x week.

Now this LD'ness on her part, fully knowing I am HD, but doing nothing about it, has left me somewhat bitter and resentful. TAM has helped get most of this out of my system and I've learned so much from everyone here, many thx.:smthumbup:

I could still initiate, but I don't anymore. Too many lame reasons not to want sex, so I now spend more time on the computer, gaming, weight training, landscaping and doing things for me.

She can still go weeks of zero physicality and sex, like now. We don't fight, but we don't do anything together either.

You don't marry a friend and room mate. You marry a loving husband or wifee.

Whether you are LD or HD, this doesn't matter. You are to take care of each others needs as your own, or nothing. Marriage is 50 / 50, or nothing. 5 love languages quiz helped much, finding out each others main love languages.

I've read many situations of HD ladies married to LD guys.....just horrible.

Instead of the LD spouse blaming everything on the HD spouse, why not take 50% of the blame, listen and really change?:scratchhead:

I've learned that the HD spouses, men and women, are the ones compromising their sex drives down to almost nothing, while their LD spouses do little to no changes in return and still blame their HD spouses......

The HD spouse should not have to do more chores, wash her car, grocery shop, and still get little to no sex increase. The LD spouse should find their other half hot and want sex with them, otherwise, why did they get married? Bait and switch....?

Why did the LD spouse marry a HD spouse in the first place?

I've read ladies wanting anal sex and their men are gross, no way!!! Now those guys should still have anal sex with their ladies because they love them and want to please them. Or I've read stories of ladies who say no to foot jobs but their men love their feet. Again, they should give foot jobs because they love their men. What if the ladies want to be tied down, flowers, lots of oral on them and their men aren't into oral sex? Their men should find ways to be great at oral sex and rock their wives worlds.

Take care of each other needs as your own or be single.


----------



## john117

Alas, one size - pun intended - does not fix all. Dr. J2 is in superb physical shape - 125 lb., wrinkle free skin, curves where needed... And can cycle 30 miles on a suspect bike with no problem...

The Love Languages... Come on now. Does someone need a checklist to figure out what their partner wants?

Some of us here are beyond 50%. More like 95%. It does not always work, not when they don't want it to work.


----------



## jld

Transactional Leadership Vs. Transformational Leadership | Leadership & Project Management Champions

BB, you are probably familiar with this topic from your MBA days. I was just reading about it today in the Synergy section in 7 Habits. I think the transformational approach is the more effective choice in marriage.


----------



## john117

Covey will be rolling in his grave as I say this - but the key to transformational leadership is to use the willingness of the peons to change and nudge them into changing. Not pull rank and carrot/stick them.

If the peons don't want to change because steady state is good then what?

It's Sunday and I have boring meetings about selecting a vendor all next week - from countries I never heard of in some cases... I need a break. Here is Covey's funniest quote:

View attachment 29930


----------



## jld

John. 

I think the quote is right on. A marriage is on us. We don't blame our parents, our kids, the economy, or Obama. And we look in the mirror before we look at each other.

John, I doubt the usefulness of rewards and punishments and judgment from on high. I really think the transformational approach is the way to go. It fosters respect for the humanity of each partner. I believe it brings out the best in each partner.

BB is an intelligent young man with leadership potential. He loves his family and wants to save his marriage. He is capable of stepping outside his comfort zone and giving transformational leadership a try. Let's encourage him.


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> very much could have meaning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so does this become a stay the course and wait game? Wait for the part where she finally divulges the pain she feels?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how do you help someone who thinks your crazy for expressing feeligns (eye roll, and head buried in ipad)? When should I expect improvemnt? What part of seeking out other men on facebook or rejecting things with your husband that you accept with other friends (concert you dont like, going for a beer) is intertwined here? Lets agree that she probably has some baggage or tough emotions inside that are confused or in need of help. What should i expect with regards to my efforts? Should I expect 2.6% improvement per year? less? more?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I can 7habit myself, I can hone out the pain in the process of this (rejection and loneliness at home), but isnt there a risk of being pushed away for so long that you eventually throw in the towel? What is her ownership role in this? Are we all adults who have to own our behaviors?




Covey also said something along the line "When you give someone your strength, it makes them weaker."



If she copes by avoiding awareness of her own internal issues, and you use your strength to keep a facade that maintains or increases her comfort level, parts of her will atrophy.



I have been meaning to chime in... some scattered thoughts...



I don't hear much of anything about conversations you two have about what is going on in each of you. My guess, from my own experiences, is you have tried but she shuts you down.



Her eye rolling has to stop. 



I just read a good deal of John Gottman's "The Relationship Cure". Take a peek if you haven't yet. Lots of practice advice about how people in relationships shut the door on attempts to connect and be present with each other. IIRC, eye-rolling is covered.



A few things you have said recently resonate deeply with me, but have not really been discussed much here though I may have missed it. They are:



1). You do not know what to expect from marriage.



2) You are recently and newly aware that it is not her role to love you in ways one has to learn to love and accept onesself (my spin on the vibe I am picking up.



3). Your father was an alcoholic.



Imho, and in my personal experience, these three things point towards the best and only chance you have for creating the conditions for your marriage -- or what comes after it -- to succeed and thrive.



Only you can work on those issues. Only you can make progress on them. Do that, and life becomes tremendously easier.



I share all three items above with you, and am happy to report progress each one is possible and rewarding.



PS. I hope what I typed is legible. This darn Tapatalk app stopped letting me see my typing many sentences ago!


----------



## PieceOfSky

MEM11363 said:


> By far the biggest single issue is that B2 is very wedded to the belief that your marriage is good right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the case despite you:
> 
> 
> - telling her directly you were unhappy with her commitment level and secrecy - and inappropriate contact with tree man, ex bf. So much so that you were not open to discussing a second child.
> 
> 
> - softly shutting down the idea of a bigger house
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She is very focused on convincing herself and the wide world (via Facebook) that she is living the dream.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------
> 
> 
> The dark comedy of this situation is that:
> 
> 
> - you are in a very strong place, but act weak
> 
> 
> - she's in a very weak place, but acts strong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her bad habits combined with the 30 pounds of ballast she added during the marriage would make it extremely difficult to replace you with a guy - whose remotely like you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You on the other hand, would easily find a partner who meets you sort of close to 50-50.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Boston - I'm not suggesting a harsh conversation. You can gently say: I don't feel close to you when you make so little effort to please me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And for all your progress, you don't seem willing to do what it takes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you really owe her this at a bare minimum:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really worry about you. Because I'm afraid one day you are going to wake up, realize you are about out of runway for a second child and when you tell me that a second child is not optional, you discover that I am simply not willing to be locked in to another 18 years of being taken for granted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------
> 
> 
> And that is the LIKELY scenario - given the way you two are pretending that everything is good.




This rings true to me, and matches my personal experience.



My therapist really surprised me several months ago when she matter-of-factly told me, essentially, "No, I don't think you have been taking action to convey to her the meaningful information she needs to understand. You have been passive in that regard."



She was right.


----------



## In Absentia

yes, but you ave to have a wife who's actually prepared to listen... if she doesn't, it's pointless...

Looks like many of us are stuck with partner who refuse to acknowledge the other half's needs. I have one... I can count on the fingers of one hand the times we managed to have a conversation about our marriage. Sex was lacking and communication too. She wouldn't open up. Every time I brought this up, she would reply "what about my needs?" End of the conversation... she just refused to acknowledge she played a part and the blame-shifting continued, followed by days of silent treatment... now, you tell me how you deal with this. Even threatening divorce wasn't enough.


----------



## PieceOfSky

In Absentia said:


> yes, but you ave to have a wife who's actually prepared to listen... if she doesn't, it's pointless...
> 
> Looks like many of us are stuck with partner who refuse to acknowledge the other half's needs. I have one... I can count on the fingers of one hand the times we managed to have a conversation about our marriage. Sex was lacking and communication too. She wouldn't open up. Every time I brought this up, she would reply "what about my needs?" End of the conversation... she just refused to acknowledge she played a part and the blame-shifting continued, followed by days of silent treatment... now, you tell me how you deal with this. Even threatening divorce wasn't enough.




You are right, absolutely right. Thr other has to be willing and able to listen, and capable of lowering his or her defensive shields, and let the conversation sink in instead of reacting to shut it down.



Even talk of divorce by me failed to move her; not words dropped in anger, but discussed calmly (when I brought it up). My acceptance of her angry threats to divorce me still were not enough for her to realize we have real and urgent matters to discuss like adults. It has only been very recently where I have effectively (perhaps) convinced her she does not have the luxury of having me in her life forever and on her sh1tty terms. In part, I think it was illuminating for her when I told her I had reached out to a couple of lawyers. The main illuminator, I believe, wad when she said "But you haven't changed. How have you changed?". (In response to me pointing out I had been working on my own issues these last couple of years why she has had her head in the sand.). My answer: "I have changed. I no longer need you to love me and make me feel loved. I want romantic love in my life, maybe even need it in some ways, but it no longer has to be from you. I have learned to love myself.". That, I think, woke her up a bit.



Too soon to say, she may not have the interest and/or attention span to be present in our relationship. We are trying one last thing, as far as I am concerns. But, I like to think I am going to be ok if she doesn't; part of me hopes maybe she wont. In any case, I feel pretty firmly I am done with my way of being in a relationship, and can and will choose to leave, if need be, on my schedule and my terms. Her issues, her behavior, no longer loom large on my horizon. That is because I worked on me, regardless of how she frittered away her time.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> By far the biggest single issue is that B2 is very wedded to the belief that your marriage is good right now.
> 
> That is the case despite you:
> - telling her directly you were unhappy with her commitment level and secrecy - and inappropriate contact with tree man, ex bf. So much so that you were not open to discussing a second child.
> - softly shutting down the idea of a bigger house
> 
> She is very focused on convincing herself and the wide world (via Facebook) that she is living the dream.
> 
> -------
> The dark comedy of this situation is that:
> - you are in a very strong place, but act weak
> - she's in a very weak place, but acts strong
> 
> Her bad habits combined with the 30 pounds of ballast she added during the marriage would make it extremely difficult to replace you with a guy - whose remotely like you.
> 
> You on the other hand, would easily find a partner who meets you sort of close to 50-50.
> 
> -----------
> 
> And Boston - I'm not suggesting a harsh conversation. You can gently say: I don't feel close to you when you make so little effort to please me.
> 
> And for all your progress, you don't seem willing to do what it takes.
> 
> And you really owe her this at a bare minimum:
> 
> I really worry about you. Because I'm afraid one day you are going to wake up, realize you are about out of runway for a second child and when you tell me that a second child is not optional, you discover that I am simply not willing to be locked in to another 18 years of being taken for granted.
> 
> ------
> And that is the LIKELY scenario - given the way you two are pretending that everything is good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UOTE=BostonBruins32;10893106]Trust me, I'm here because I'm trying to make something work. a child involved is all the difference in the world. Despite what Blonde says, I'm actually a pretty good parent and I owe B3 a very very fair effort.


[/QUOTE]

Haha. 30lbs of ballast. did I take that too literal? kinda funny.

She must have read this thread. Minimal time on facebook this weekend. Even played hide and seek with B3 and I for about an hour in the house. She then proceeded to tell me on Sunday I look very handsome (I went to church in the AM with b3, something I do a few times a month). I showed my cards though, as I looked her very confusingly and said "what was that?". I literally felt like I just saw a spaceship and initially had no clue how to respond.

anyways. I hear ya MEM. My version of putting my foot down sucks sometimes. The overall foot down process is better than before, but I keep falling back on some of my core attributes which poison the marriage: doing things for others and being complimentary. 

I also read on here about spending too much focus on B3. Not sure how I feel about that point of view. On the one hand, I have taken very direct steps in self improvement. Very heavy focus on my share of household duties. Very specific focus on being a better dad for B3. Very specific focus on physical fitness. etc. On the other hand, I could hear the argument around not giving enough of this energy to the marriage, but I'm not sure what more i should be giving or offering to her? I'm not saying there isnt more, but there could be and I'm just not doing it? 

As for the whole dark comedy comment. I pondered on that last Nov-january. In the heat of the battle. I thought "what the hell is going on here. I'm not a downgrade for her. " at some point, pure honesty, I thought I don't deserve this and I could honestly do better. I jumped off that wagon. its not that I dont think I could do better or not do better. I just dont think it is productive to focus on. But trust me, I thought it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

PieceOfSky said:


> You are right, absolutely right. Thr other has to be willing and able to listen, and capable of lowering his or her defensive shields, and let the conversation sink in instead of reacting to shut it down.
> 
> 
> 
> Even talk of divorce by me failed to move her; not words dropped in anger, but discussed calmly (when I brought it up). My acceptance of her angry threats to divorce me still were not enough for her to realize we have real and urgent matters to discuss like adults. It has only been very recently where I have effectively (perhaps) convinced her she does not have the luxury of having me in her life forever and on her sh1tty terms. In part, I think it was illuminating for her when I told her I had reached out to a couple of lawyers. The main illuminator, I believe, wad when she said "But you haven't changed. How have you changed?". (In response to me pointing out I had been working on my own issues these last couple of years why she has had her head in the sand.). My answer: _*"I have changed. I no longer need you to love me and make me feel loved. I want romantic love in my life, maybe even need it in some ways, but it no longer has to be from you. I have learned to love myself.". That, I think, woke her up a bit.*_
> 
> *I said something like this once. My version was that I no longer count on you to make me happy or seek your approval about whether or not I'm worth it. ..when I said this she was super rattled. like you, I'm not sure if it moved the needle, but it felt good because at the very least I felt like I had just cleansed myself of a huge monkey on my back. *
> 
> 
> 
> Too soon to say, she may not have the interest and/or attention span to be present in our relationship. We are trying one last thing, as far as I am concerns. But, I like to think I am going to be ok if she doesn't; part of me hopes maybe she wont. In any case, I feel pretty firmly I am done with my way of being in a relationship, and can and will choose to leave, if need be, on my schedule and my terms. Her issues, her behavior, no longer loom large on my horizon. That is because I worked on me, regardless of how she frittered away her time.


----------



## Blonde

MEM11363 said:


> Four years of feeding the twin headed beasts of entitlement and laziness.
> ..
> 
> This I know for certain. Until you fully own your part in creating this spoiled, lazy wife you have - your anger will prevent you from undoing what you did.




I cannot believe you listen to this *sheer projection* of laziness and entitlement, BB! 





MEM11363 said:


> John.
> Truly you are hilarious. This stuff is just priceless.
> 
> That said - you triggered me. Not your fault at all.
> 
> In parallel with coming at me full blast over a decision that cost a few hundred dollars, M2 was pushing our very mediocre student children to look at out of state schools.
> 
> After exploding that: Dad - at the time our sole breadwinner - was apparently not entitled to a few hundred dollars of discretionary spend. But our kids (of course I love them - they are blood - they simply aren't serious students) were welcome to an extra 100K plus for undergrad - just because.
> 
> *This is why I quit working - and haven't looked for a job since. M2 works full time now. I love her - AND - I have yet to hear the magic words yet. She makes 1/6 what I did. *
> 
> Of course she's apologized profusely. I don't accept. Her apologies all have the same structure: the real meaning is 'I am sorry you are angry at me, please don't be angry at me any more'.
> 
> Okey dokie. Not mad at you any more. Just unwilling to support someone who truly believes that every dollar I earn is fully hers.
> 
> Even after I had quit and a year had passed without me looking for a job, M2 did some very aggressive stuff about money. So - in addition to being on strike I moved 10 percent of our net worth into an account that she has NO ACcESS to.


----------



## Blonde

IMO it is massively disrespectful to your W to view her as lazy and entitled because she is not driven and performance oriented like you. It discounts her job and every act of service she does for the family.

And she can FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL your disrespect and rejection, guaranteed she feels it and avoids it by burying herself in the IPAD....

I'm gonna say it again. Get yourselves to Retrovaille Marriage Help Program For Couples


----------



## BostonBruins32

Duguesclin said:


> MEM, how much he has given is irrelevant. It is like you have traveled a 200 mile journey, thinking you should have already arrived, when you realize you still have 100 miles to go. Do you then go back because you have invested too much? No, you keep going until you get there.
> 
> It is the same concept as sunk cost in the financial world. You do not look back. You look forward.


except in the financial world, you would likely cut your losses and make a different investment. Almost like watching someone gamble and lose for hours/days, waiting for the _next _hand that will pay them back. tomorrow. well maybe next week. well maybe next month.. its coming... 

Without children, that would be the more attractive answer. With children, I'm really doing my diligence on this investment.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

Are you willing to spend the next 4 years gently, firmly, relentlessly shaping B2's core values? 

Have you stopped the pattern of false intimacy: telling her she looks nice while internally you are quite displeased with her conduct?

I'm guessing that you did. In fact, I'm pretty sure you did.

Because B2 liked those daily compliments. When they stopped, she missed them. Remember, she's overly focused on appearances. 

And B2 grasps reciprocity perfectly well. 

It's why she complimented your church outfit....

Have you started giving her sincere behavioral feedback?

BTW: 
JLD made a very good point. When B2 is being unkind to her mom or doing somethng or other that isnt constructive, the best thing to do is ask why. 


Haha. 30lbs of ballast. did I take that too literal? kinda funny.

She must have read this thread. Minimal time on facebook this weekend. Even played hide and seek with B3 and I for about an hour in the house. She then proceeded to tell me on Sunday I look very handsome (I went to church in the AM with b3, something I do a few times a month). I showed my cards though, as I looked her very confusingly and said "what was that?". I literally felt like I just saw a spaceship and initially had no clue how to respond.

anyways. I hear ya MEM. My version of putting my foot down sucks sometimes. The overall foot down process is better than before, but I keep falling back on some of my core attributes which poison the marriage: doing things for others and being complimentary. 

I also read on here about spending too much focus on B3. Not sure how I feel about that point of view. On the one hand, I have taken very direct steps in self improvement. Very heavy focus on my share of household duties. Very specific focus on being a better dad for B3. Very specific focus on physical fitness. etc. On the other hand, I could hear the argument around not giving enough of this energy to the marriage, but I'm not sure what more i should be giving or offering to her? I'm not saying there isnt more, but there could be and I'm just not doing it? 

As for the whole dark comedy comment. I pondered on that last Nov-january. In the heat of the battle. I thought "what the hell is going on here. I'm not a downgrade for her. " at some point, pure honesty, I thought I don't deserve this and I could honestly do better. I jumped off that wagon. its not that I dont think I could do better or not do better. I just dont think it is productive to focus on. But trust me, I thought it.[/QUOTE]


----------



## BostonBruins32

Blonde said:


> IMO it is massively disrespectful to your W to view her as lazy and entitled because she is not driven and performance oriented like you. It discounts her job and every act of service she does for the family.
> 
> And she can FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL your disrespect and rejection, guaranteed she feels it and avoids it by burying herself in the IPAD....
> 
> I'm gonna say it again. Get yourselves to Retrovaille Marriage Help Program For Couples


----------



## jld

BB, I think that image is unkind. 

Honestly, I never would have expected that from you. You always seemed like such a gentleman. I respected that about you.


----------



## Blonde

BB chooses his advisors, who to listen to, who do agree with. Who he chooses and agrees with is telling. 

NOT me recommending Retrouvaille ad nauseum

NOT JLD nor Dug recommending listening to the W and having empathy for her.

Mem suggesting and living out punishing a W for not lining up with his program. What a role model 

Mrs Boston AND Mrs Mem:

Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men - Lundy Bancroft - Google Books

Detach JLD. The handwriting is on the wall here. We can't help.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> 
> Are you willing to spend the next 4 years gently, firmly, relentlessly shaping B2's core values?
> 
> Have you stopped the pattern of false intimacy: telling her she looks nice while internally you are quite displeased with her conduct?
> 
> I'm guessing that you did. In fact, I'm pretty sure you did.
> 
> Because B2 liked those daily compliments. When they stopped, she missed them. Remember, she's overly focused on appearances.
> 
> And B2 grasps reciprocity perfectly well.
> 
> It's why she complimented your church outfit....
> 
> Have you started giving her sincere behavioral feedback?
> 
> BTW:
> JLD made a very good point. When B2 is being unkind to her mom or doing somethng or other that isnt constructive, the best thing to do is ask why.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haha. 30lbs of ballast. did I take that too literal? kinda funny.
> 
> She must have read this thread. Minimal time on facebook this weekend. Even played hide and seek with B3 and I for about an hour in the house. She then proceeded to tell me on Sunday I look very handsome (I went to church in the AM with b3, something I do a few times a month). I showed my cards though, as I looked her very confusingly and said "what was that?". I literally felt like I just saw a spaceship and initially had no clue how to respond.
> 
> anyways. I hear ya MEM. My version of putting my foot down sucks sometimes. The overall foot down process is better than before, but I keep falling back on some of my core attributes which poison the marriage: doing things for others and being complimentary.
> 
> I also read on here about spending too much focus on B3. Not sure how I feel about that point of view. On the one hand, I have taken very direct steps in self improvement. Very heavy focus on my share of household duties. Very specific focus on being a better dad for B3. Very specific focus on physical fitness. etc. On the other hand, I could hear the argument around not giving enough of this energy to the marriage, but I'm not sure what more i should be giving or offering to her? I'm not saying there isnt more, but there could be and I'm just not doing it?
> 
> As for the whole dark comedy comment. I pondered on that last Nov-january. In the heat of the battle. I thought "what the hell is going on here. I'm not a downgrade for her. " at some point, pure honesty, I thought I don't deserve this and I could honestly do better. I jumped off that wagon. its not that I dont think I could do better or not do better. I just dont think it is productive to focus on. But trust me, I thought it.


[/QUOTE]

I've given her feedback when the time feels right. 

So in the heat of battle with her and her mom, I've helped defuse the situation with humor on the spot. Usually works and thier battle ends. I've also asked her, after shes come down a few heat levels, I've asked her why she feels so upset with her mom. Usually she snaps back with something about her "not listening" or "being nosey" etc.. Its never a deep convo. Her mom and father yell at each other a lot and B3 spends a lot of time there, so I have asked both parents and B2 to just try to take it easy in the presence of B3, as she hears EVERYTHING. 

When she complimented me, I was beyond thrown off guard. I couldnt have reciprocated if I wanted to. I still believe in complimenting her on parenting or thanking her for making dinner or thanking her for doing xyz. Its not to kiss her @ss, but more that its just the right thing to do.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> BB, I think that image is unkind.
> 
> Honestly, I never would have expected that from you. You always seemed like such a gentleman. I respected that about you.


I'm sorry. I'm just really frustrated with Blonde's continued 50% involved support on this forum. She's so one sided, it hurts. MEM, you, anon, wom, john, etc.. call me out on here all the time and it usually has a great ring of truth to it and is presented in a fashion that captures my attention and makes me challenge myself. Sometimes the feedback I get from these folks hurts, sometimes its empowering. 



Blonde reads, saves, and repeats about 5 quotes out of 500 pages on here and just spews things that make no sense and lack relevancy. I also think she is triggering on something. Which is too bad, but I think thats why I get the nasty comments from her on here.


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> When she complimented me, I was beyond thrown off guard. I couldnt have reciprocated if I wanted to. I still believe in complimenting her on parenting or thanking her for making dinner or thanking her for doing xyz. Its not to kiss her @ss, but more that its just the right thing to do.


At the risk of y'all noticing my repetition, I'll say this is the sort of thing discussed in Gottman's The Relationship Cure. There's an audio book version. Perhaps you could invite her to listen to it with you, "because I realized how good it felt that you complimented me the other day -- it really meant a lot to me -- and I realized I do a poor job of providing you the same sort of good feelings."


----------



## MEM2020

All,

I'm going to confess - hoping to clear my conscience.

There has been an instance in the last 3 years where I was very controlling with M2. I dragged her (kicking and screaming) to a Retrouvaille - like weekend offered by her church. 

So it's true that I have my (rare) moments where I believe the ends justify the means. 

For the most part though M2 and I rub along quite well. She is doing great at work, her boss loves her. We were walking the dogs this weekend when the topic of her boss came up. 

I observed that her boss viewed her as: responsible, patient with patients, resourceful, upbeat and funny. 

And then I said: But I don't think your boss plays for the 'other' team (meaning that her female boss is hetero) so she doesn't quite get the full effect. Probably best, she might find it just as impossible to resist you as I do. 

And if M2 doesn't love me 'in kind' she wins two Oscars for 2014:
1. finest performance by a wife outside the bedroom
2. And finest between the sheets

As for the vitriolic tone of the post below, I don't believe that it's origins lie with either myself or Boston. 

--------
As for this theme of honest (if painful) communication I advocate to Boston, perhaps it's best if I share a very recent example from home.

M2: babe, I'm worried about you, lately you've been drinking more than usual. And your Dad, became an alcoholic later in life.
MEM: (deep sigh - this isn't the first time M2 has mentioned this concern - and she is worried - about me more than herself. And that focus is very obvious) Yes. Well - either way it's likely best if I don't drink for the next month - starting today. It will be interesting to see how difficult that is. 
M2: let me know what I can do to help

Was M2 being controlling? 
I don't see it that way. It felt like she was asserting herself in the spirit of maintaining a healthy marriage. 

No different than me dragging us to that church retreat....



UOTE=Blonde;10902522]BB chooses his advisors, who to listen to, who do agree with. Who he chooses and agrees with is telling. 

NOT me recommending Retrouvaille ad nauseum

NOT JLD nor Dug recommending listening to the W and having empathy for her.

Mem suggesting and living out punishing a W for not lining up with his program. What a role model 

Mrs Boston AND Mrs Mem:

Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men - Lundy Bancroft - Google Books

Detach JLD. The handwriting is on the wall here. We can't help.[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

This thread needs a TV miniseries.... 

I hereby cast Rodney Dangerfield as Dr. John...


----------



## MEM2020

Piece,

The first half of your post below is spot on. 

The second part (starting with: and I realized) is false intimacy because:

It's the opposite of what Boston believes to be true. It's a deceit intended to somehow make her feel better in the moment.

And I think it's terrrific that Boston gives B2 positive and sincer feedback frequently. And his feedback to her, should be completely independent of her feedback to him. 

He should thank, praise, etc. open ended - even if she isn't reponding in kind. 

That said, the difference between a doormat and an emotionally self sufficient H is:
- the latter doesn't need verbal compliments 
- the former doesn't know how to handle criticism - both the valid and the invalid types





PieceOfSky said:


> At the risk of y'all noticing my repetition, I'll say this is the sort of thing discussed in Gottman's The Relationship Cure. There's an audio book version. Perhaps you could invite her to listen to it with you, "because I realized how good it felt that you complimented me the other day -- it really meant a lot to me -- and I realized I do a poor job of providing you the same sort of good feelings."


----------



## MEM2020

No way:

Leo Mcgarry from the West Wing: played by John Spencer






john117 said:


> This thread needs a TV miniseries....
> 
> I hereby cast Rodney Dangerfield as Dr. John...


----------



## Anon Pink

Boston, as I read your latest a posts you sound very disheartened, dejected, rejected and confused. You followed advice about fixing your side of the street. It didn't change her behavior but instead allowed her to think her little "need space" claim worked.

How often, if ever, do you two discuss that episode in your lives? That was a kick in the teeth from which you've never recovered.

I'm going to go in the opposite direction. I know how it feels to be married to someone who seems wholly disaffected by what it is you feel, so long as their illusion of contentment remains intact. You can't nice your way into them jointing reality, nor can you sex your way into it. Because the bottom line is that they just don't see you.

No one likes to live in a constant state or warfare or disharmony. But allowing them to continue to live in their pretend world is, IMO, a huge mistake.

What are your issues in your marriage right now?

What do you want in your marriage?

How do you define a good marriage?

What are your expectations for your wife, what should she be doing to make you feel loved and important to her? 

I asked you questions similar back in the spring and you kind of glossed over them. I hope you will answer them now.


----------



## MEM2020

That episode - B2 moving out - was the catalyst for Boston getting stronger. 

B2 looks back on it fondly because it improved HIM. I agree with her. 

Boston,
I love you man. And if your marriage comes a cropper, I will provide you with quite the dowry for taking on my 24 year old daughter. 

The thing is, you've missed the boat on that separation. It did you a world of good. Be grateful for the result as that is what matters most. And more than anything you've been rewarded with a little person who adores you. 

Now - return the favor for B2. Just do your bit with kindness. 

She only seems tough to you, because she's capable of being quite cruel. But she is not tough like you. Not resilient. 




Anon Pink said:


> Boston, as I read your latest a posts you sound very disheartened, dejected, rejected and confused. You followed advice about fixing your side of the street. It didn't change her behavior but instead allowed her to think her little "need space" claim worked.
> 
> How often, if ever, do you two discuss that episode in your lives? That was a kick in the teeth from which you've never recovered.
> 
> I'm going to go in the opposite direction. I know how it feels to be married to someone who seems wholly disaffected by what it is you feel, so long as their illusion of contentment remains intact. You can't nice your way into them jointing reality, nor can you sex your way into it. Because the bottom line is that they just don't see you.
> 
> No one likes to live in a constant state or warfare or disharmony. But allowing them to continue to live in their pretend world is, IMO, a huge mistake.
> 
> What are your issues in your marriage right now?
> 
> What do you want in your marriage?
> 
> How do you define a good marriage?
> 
> What are your expectations for your wife, what should she be doing to make you feel loved and important to her?
> 
> I asked you questions similar back in the spring and you kind of glossed over them. I hope you will answer them now.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Boston, as I read your latest a posts you sound very disheartened, dejected, rejected and confused. You followed advice about fixing your side of the street. It didn't change her behavior but instead allowed her to think her little "need space" claim worked.
> 
> How often, if ever, do you two discuss that episode in your lives? That was a kick in the teeth from which you've never recovered.
> 
> I'm going to go in the opposite direction. I know how it feels to be married to someone who seems wholly disaffected by what it is you feel, so long as their illusion of contentment remains intact. You can't nice your way into them jointing reality, nor can you sex your way into it. Because the bottom line is that they just don't see you.
> 
> No one likes to live in a constant state or warfare or disharmony. But allowing them to continue to live in their pretend world is, IMO, a huge mistake.
> 
> What are your issues in your marriage right now?*The issues. Issues that I know of: I have minimal trust in her, be it cheating or really being in it for the long run. I've told her this. Parental criticisms, which alone are just annoying, but compounded with everything else ive mentioned in this thread, are more than annoying. MY perception that she is not physically attracted to me kind of hurts, but hurts less over time. There are probably issues she has with me, which I'll guess at: she is upset i dont trust her. she probably think I get too nervous with things. I dont think shes physically attracted to me (if you could get her drunk maybe she'd admit). I think she is frustrated that I havent 100% moved on from the past. I would imagine she is hurt dissapointed about not waning B4. *
> 
> What do you want in your marriage? *I want to be able to trust her. Not that she'll never leave, but more that she will communicate with me when she does want to leave or when there is a problem. Also that she wont fish for other men. I expect her to be mad at me and for myself to screw up doing xyz ..but I want her to communicate this to me, rather than telling her friends and then leaving for a week. I would like to feel loved from her, but I'm not really asking her to make me feel that way. I think that resides in my own court of perception. *
> 
> How do you define a good marriage?*divorced parents and a father who wasnt too tapped in. What the hell is a good marriage?  Good marriage. A couple that supports one another, communicates with one another, and maybe adores one another (various ways of showing it). Most importantly, a good marriage would drive out the best in one another. I'd make her a better woman and she'd make me a better man. Constantly evolving. Good sex, healthy children, fun vacations would be biproducts of this. *
> 
> What are your expectations for your wife, what should she be doing to make you feel loved and important to her?
> 
> I asked you questions similar back in the spring and you kind of glossed over them. I hope you will answer them now.


Good questions anon, sorry for skirting them earlier. never intended to.


----------



## Anon Pink

Thank you excellent answers!

I want to zone in on this:

"couple that supports one another, communicates with one another, and maybe adores one another (various ways of showing it). Most importantly, a good marriage would drive out the best in one another. I'd make her a better woman and she'd make me a better man. Constantly evolving. "

You also mentioned trust a few times so trust is a significant element that is missing in your relationship. I can't say I blame you for not trusting her. She needed space, that issue was never resolved, and now she lives in Facebook land where everything is as staged and as fake as a porno. 

Would you agree with MEM that last years time out drove you to some self improvements that were good? I think yes you would. 

But surely there are better ways of driving out the best in your spouse?

In my case, there wasn't. Or I wasn't doing it right, probably both. 

Would you agree that the way she is behaving right now is driving out the best in you or the worst in you?

Would you say that the way you are acting is driving out her best or her worst?


----------



## BostonBruins32

I would say the result of thd space is a better me , mixed with a double shot of zero trust. How do I triangulate that to a healthy marriage. If I don't trust her that's my problem , i think. So is the space worth if? Probably for me personally. How about for thd marriage? Or my faith in us as partners?


----------



## Anon Pink

You can't really have trust without openness. Without real honest sharing.

Over the weekend my husband said something that hurt my feelings. He didn't intend it in the way I took it AT all. I nursed my mad for several hours. When we finally talked, he stood there and continued to ask questions as I danced around the honesty I was hiding from him. 

Here's the take home for you Boston:

He stood calmly in my storm and continued to seek the truth. He did not accept my dancing around, he did not allow me to leave the room, he did not throw up his hands and walk away in disgust. He stood firm and kept asking and kept listening. His faith in US, in our ability to understand each other saw us through that little storm.

Don't be afraid to hear that she's not currently attracted to you because that can and does change! 

We clean your dirty underwear, not attractive.  but then you put on some slow music and we forget and you become attractive again.

I agree with John, stop the presses! Disconnect wifi and ditch her damn IPad. Do not allow her storm to stop you from getting honesty out of her. Said from a fellow IPad addict! 

You want her to want to give you her full attention, but that won't work right now.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> *What are your issues in your marriage right now?*The issues. Issues that I know of: I have minimal trust in her, be it cheating or really being in it for the long run. I've told her this. Parental criticisms, which alone are just annoying, but compounded with everything else ive mentioned in this thread, are more than annoying. *MY perception* that she is not physically attracted to me kind of hurts, but hurts less over time. *There are probably issues she has with me, which I'll guess at*: she is upset i dont trust her. she probably think I get too nervous with things. I dont think shes physically attracted to me (if you could get her drunk maybe she'd admit).* I think* she is frustrated that I havent 100% moved on from the past. *I would imagine* she is hurt dissapointed about not waning B4.


I've been reading this thread for the past few days, trying to put my finger on what might be tripping you up right now, what might be flatlining your progress. I think AP's questions got you to pinpoint, at least in my mind, a big stumbling block for you right now. 

You are reacting to assumptions, fears, suspicions. You are (consciously or not) operating under "reverse covert contracts." That is, you analyze her behavior and try to guess which of your behaviors it might be in reaction to. Does that make any sense? 

As you say, you are forced to guess since she's not opening up to you. But when you make those guesses your reality, it can lead to real problems. Just like AP demonstrates in the story about her and her husband, the problems brought on by lack of communication are only compounded when one partner "fills in the blank" with his or her "best guess" and acts accordingly. 



BostonBruins32 said:


> *What do you want in your marriage? *I want to be able to trust her. Not that she'll never leave, but more that she will communicate with me when she does want to leave or when there is a problem. Also that she wont fish for other men. I expect her to be mad at me and for myself to screw up doing xyz ..*but I want her to communicate this to me,* rather than telling her friends and then leaving for a week. I would like to feel loved from her, but I'm not really asking her to make me feel that way. I think that resides in my own court of perception.


Then you HAVE to make it safe for her to do so. This is probably the hardest thing that you will ever have to do . . . should you decide to accept this mission. 



BostonBruins32 said:


> *How do you define a good marriage?*divorced parents and a father who wasnt too tapped in. What the hell is a good marriage? Good marriage. A couple that supports one another, communicates with one another, and maybe adores one another (various ways of showing it). Most importantly, a good marriage would drive out the best in one another. I'd make her a better woman and she'd make me a better man. Constantly evolving. Good sex, healthy children, fun vacations would be biproducts of this.


I love your answer. I would be curious to see how your wife would answer this question. She might write the same thing, but imagine a TOTALLY different path to that destination. 

You haven't figured out how to meet her needs, and she hasn't figured out how to meet yours. You are able to articulate your needs, but so far, she has not. 

If I was going to counsel next steps for you:
1. Clear your mind of all assumptions about how she views you and why she needed space and whether she's ever going to fish for men and whether she thinks you are a good parent. ALL of it. Let it go. 
2. Take AP's advice and work on forcing her to communicate verbally what her views and issues actually are, rewarding any show of honesty (drunk or sober) with unflinching acceptance every step of the way. 

Yeah, this is all more work for you, but you've shown yourself willing so far, so I thought I'd hazard a suggestion that you double down for round II.


----------



## Anon Pink

Be ware of GettingIt's double dares and double downs. It's not for the faint of heart!


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

Trust has to start somewhere. What are you doing to address the fact that you don't trust her? 

B2's perception of the marriage (1-5 scale):
Trust: 4-5
Respect: 4-5
Commitment: 4-5
Communication: 4

-----------------------
Bostons ratings of B2 in those areas:
Trust: 2
Respect: 2 
Commitment: 2
Communication: 2

----------------
This exercise, done properly, looks more like this. 
Each person answers two distinct questions in each category:

How much do you trust me: 
How much do you feel that I trust you:
....

Because in these critical areas, any score below a 4 needs to be addressed. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> I would say the result of thd space is a better me , mixed with a double shot of zero trust. How do I triangulate that to a healthy marriage. If I don't trust her that's my problem , i think. So is the space worth if? Probably for me personally. How about for thd marriage? Or my faith in us as partners?


----------



## PieceOfSky

MEM11363 said:


> Piece,
> 
> The first half of your post below is spot on.
> 
> The second part (starting with: and I realized) is false intimacy because:
> 
> It's the opposite of what Boston believes to be true. It's a deceit intended to somehow make her feel better in the moment.
> 
> And I think it's terrrific that Boston gives B2 positive and sincer feedback frequently. And his feedback to her, should be completely independent of her feedback to him.
> 
> He should thank, praise, etc. open ended - even if she isn't reponding in kind.
> 
> That said, the difference between a doormat and an emotionally self sufficient H is:
> - the latter doesn't need verbal compliments
> - the former doesn't know how to handle criticism - both the valid and the invalid types



I'll agree that whatever you do, B2, keep it real. Keep it honest. Don't ever mask the uncomfortable truth with happier-sounding spin. My "suggested speech" was only an example...certainly ignore it if it doesn't fit how you feel (or for any reason -- it was just an idea, presented pseudo-impromtu).


----------



## MEM2020

QFT

In MC recently. 

M2 Sure we get mad, but we aren't ever intentionally mean to each other. 
MEM: babe, that's not even half true. And we can't make it better if we pretend it isn't so.
Counselor: nodding, encouraging and sayng the magic words to M2: that's pretty normal behavior....

Later in the session:
M2: I'm worried about MEM's drinking, when his Dad drank... this is where M2 started to dance around an ugly truth...
MEM: My Dad pre alcoholism - was a great guy. The alcoholic version of him was like any alcoholic, a selfish dysfunctional mess. 

There's nothing you could say to me that's true, could ever make me love you less - so long as your intent is good. And your intentions (except when you are really angry) are almost always good. 

And sometimes the hardest things you say, are the things that make me love you the most....




GettingIt said:


> BostonBruins32 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *What are your issues in your marriage right now?*The issues. Issues that I know of: I have minimal trust in her, be it cheating or really being in it for the long run. I've told her this. Parental criticisms, which alone are just annoying, but compounded with everything else ive mentioned in this thread, are more than annoying. *MY perception* that she is not physically attracted to me kind of hurts, but hurts less over time. *There are probably issues she has with me, which I'll guess at*: she is upset i dont trust her. she probably think I get too nervous with things. I dont think shes physically attracted to me (if you could get her drunk maybe she'd admit).* I think* she is frustrated that I havent 100% moved on from the past. *I would imagine* she is hurt dissapointed about not waning B4.
> 
> I've been reading this thread for the past few days, trying to put my finger on what might be tripping you up right now, what might be flatlining your progress. I think AP's questions got you to pinpoint, at least in my mind, a big stumbling block for you right now.
> 
> You are reacting to assumptions, fears, suspicions. You are (consciously or not) operating under "reverse covert contracts." That is, you analyze her behavior and try to guess which of your behaviors it might be in reaction to. Does that make any sense?
> 
> As you say, you are forced to guess since she's not opening up to you. But when you make those guesses your reality, it can lead to real problems. Just like AP demonstrates in the story about her and her husband, the problems brought on by lack of communication are only compounded when one partner "fills in the blank" with his or her "best guess" and acts accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you HAVE to make it safe for her to do so. This is probably the hardest thing that you will ever have to do . . . should you decide to accept this mission.
> 
> 
> 
> I love your answer. I would be curious to see how your wife would answer this question. She might write the same thing, but imagine a TOTALLY different path to that destination.
> 
> You haven't figured out how to meet her needs, and she hasn't figured out how to meet yours. You are able to articulate your needs, but so far, she has not.
> 
> If I was going to counsel next steps for you:
> 1. Clear your mind of all assumptions about how she views you and why she needed space and whether she's ever going to fish for men and whether she thinks you are a good parent. ALL of it. Let it go.
> 2. Take AP's advice and work on forcing her to communicate verbally what her views and issues actually are, rewarding any show of honesty (drunk or sober) with unflinching acceptance every step of the way.
> 
> Yeah, this is all more work for you, but you've shown yourself willing so far, so I thought I'd hazard a suggestion that you double down for round II.
Click to expand...


----------



## MEM2020

Piece,
I apologize if my tone was - off. 

I just know that in areas where we struggle, I have to be extremely consistent with M2. If she really wants to believe something, she clings to ANY sign that it's true. 





PieceOfSky said:


> I'll agree that whatever you do, B2, keep it real. Keep it honest. Don't ever mask the uncomfortable truth with happier-sounding spin. My "suggested speech" was only an example...certainly ignore it if it doesn't fit how you feel (or for any reason -- it was just an idea, presented pseudo-impromtu).


----------



## PieceOfSky

MEM11363 said:


> Piece,
> I apologize if my tone was - off.
> 
> I just know that in areas where we struggle, I have to be extremely consistent with M2. If she really wants to believe something, she clings to ANY sign that it's true.



Your tone was fine, and your point even better.

His wife or he misunderstanding anything here, especially the dissatisfaction and hurt inside BB, would only prolong their misery. Words are important. They can help reveal the truth or they can mask it.

The price of masking can be measured in years.


----------



## Anon Pink

PieceOfSky said:


> The price of masking can be measured in years.


Isn't that the damn truth!


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> That episode - B2 moving out - was the catalyst for Boston getting stronger.
> 
> B2 looks back on it fondly because it improved HIM. I agree with her.
> 
> Boston,
> I love you man. And if your marriage comes a cropper, I will provide you with quite the dowry for taking on my 24 year old daughter.
> 
> The thing is, you've missed the boat on that separation. It did you a world of good. Be grateful for the result as that is what matters most. And more than anything you've been rewarded with a little person who adores you.
> 
> Now - return the favor for B2. Just do your bit with kindness.
> 
> She only seems tough to you, because she's capable of being quite cruel. But she is not tough like you. Not resilient.


I recognize that. Having a b3 is worth every ounce of anything this marriage has surfaced.

I'm beginning to think I sound like a complainer who doesnt do sh%t. So I apologize for that. I hit tough patches and I think fall into self loathing. 

B2 is at the gym right now, first time since May. B3 is in bed. The house is silent. great time for reflection, or even MNF. or even browsing hockey tickets for B3 and I for saturday night. 

the separation mem. yep personally I needed it. but now what. thats what I don't get. the separation prepared me for life after b2. For about 8 months I thought it promised a better life with B2. Now I feel like Tom Brady trying to march the ball up the field with all my recievers injured. Sure, theres time on the clock. But nobody is open. Nobody there to catch the pass. Do I just run the ball myself? Its a good fix for a broken drive, but it isnt a solution to really win the game.


Thats what I struggle with here. lead her. take charge. show her. etc. i have LITERALLY no idea how.


----------



## john117

Boston you had me rooting for you till you mentioned Tom Brady there... I wa all set to propose Robert Redford to play you too.

Could it be that this limitation you identified in B2 is simply who she is? House, dog, fence, kids, PTO... Maybe her aspirations are material only but deep inside she may be longing for intellectual and power growth.

That's why I mentioned grad school. You're lucky to live in the most college plentiful city I can think of, maybe lugging B2 to BU or Northeastern could work wonders. Dead serious. If she's in a field where grad school would help her, why not?


----------



## Duguesclin

BostonBruins32 said:


> Thats what I struggle with here. lead her. take charge. show her. etc. i have LITERALLY no idea how.


BB, a long time ago, in college, I was in a rock climbing club. I had the basics down, and I followed all the advice. 

I was always told you need to keep a minimum of 3 point contacts to the cliff at all time, either 2 feet and 1 hand or 2 hands and 1 foot. You use your 4th point to move.

During one of the climb, I ended up in a position where there was no way I could keep that rule. I was scared and did not know what to do. I could not go forward nor backward. One thing was sure, I was not going to stay stuck. I had to take some risk. I just moved, used every piece of my body to stay in contact with the rock and moved. I do not know how I did it, but I just did.

BB, you are thinking too much. Start doing something different.


----------



## FrenchFry

Pardon the interruption...I did not mean to even try to edit your post Boston. I have fat fingers.


----------



## Anon Pink

Frenchfry, your GIFs are perfect!


----------



## farsidejunky

Boston:

Six plus months ago I told you that you needed to communicate with your wife. Here we are still having the same problem. 

Ask her the questions that many posters have brought up. I know, I know... you have, right? Then she rolls her eyes, and you fold like house of cards. Why? 

She rolls her eyes? So what, stay engaged. She loses her temper, sit there and take it, diffuse it with active listening, stay engaged. Stop quitting half way in these conversations. You are allowing her (whether deliberate or defense mechanisms) to derail communication. YOU.

Yes you have improved yourself tremendously. However, you have spent the life of this thread coming up with new ways to make excuses for not truly communicating with your wife.

What are YOU going to do about it?


----------



## PieceOfSky

farsidejunky said:


> Boston:
> 
> Six plus months ago I told you that you needed to communicate with your wife. Here we are still having the same problem.
> 
> Ask her the questions that many posters have brought up. I know, I know... you have, right? Then she rolls her eyes, and you fold like house of cards. Why?
> 
> She rolls her eyes? So what, stay engaged. She loses her temper, sit there and take it, diffuse it with active listening, stay engaged. Stop quitting half way in these conversations. You are allowing her (whether deliberate or defense mechanisms) to derail communication. YOU.
> 
> Yes you have improved yourself tremendously. However, you have spent the life of this thread coming up with new ways to make excuses for not truly communicating with your wife.
> 
> What are YOU going to do about it?







BB, when was the last time you communicated something of significance to her about what your experience has been, and she did not try or you did not let her evade the content of your message?



If my wife rolled her eyes at me in anything but a playful conversation (rare) the me-now (not me-a-year-ago) would stop and say "That right there -- the eye rolling -- is dismissive and rude, and an attempt to shut down communication. If you want to us to have a chance at fixing our relationship, you are going to have to stop doing that. You might not like what you heard me say, you might not even want to hear what I have to say. But I'm not going to accept that sort of treatment from you or anyone else."



Of course, ymmv.


----------



## john117

PieceOfSky said:


> BB, when was the last time you communicated something of significance to her about what your experience has been, and she did not try or you did not let her evade the content of your message?


They get the message, my man. They do get it. They don't care. To them, rolling eyes or talking super loud or immediately projecting their own behavior back at you is how they work.

If you want to have such 'serious' conversations then you won't have any time for sex, as you'll be spending all your time talking. They LOVE talking. Absolutely LOVE it. 

Most grown-ups have a lot of built in defense mechanisms, be it rolling eyes, ignoring, projecting, misinterpreting, etc. to handle undesirable communication. Unless you're prepared to take more drastic measures, you can have Ronald Reagan's communication skills and it won't do you much good in many cases.

The assumption here is that the message is not getting across, therefore the messenger is deficient. That ain't the case. 

My German colleagues probably weren't very happy when I played this, but that's the type of communications mismatch we're looking at.

We Are Sinking (German Coast Guard) (Berlitz Ad) - YouTube

If they're willing to listen, lots of things can be done (i.e. JLD-spec active listening and the like). But if they're in la-la-land and consider themselves immune to talking, you'll be singing for a long time (as per video).


----------



## john117

farsidejunky said:


> She rolls her eyes? So what, stay engaged. She loses her temper, sit there and take it, diffuse it with active listening, stay engaged. Stop quitting half way in these conversations. You are allowing her (whether deliberate or defense mechanisms) to derail communication. YOU.


If you can do all that, in many cases you run head on into the 95%-5% rule. You spend all your time making your case, she knows you're right, if you're lucky she will nod golden retriever style, then will feed you back her party line.

In a collision between sincere communication and broken record, guess who wins most of the time. Hint. It ain't sincerity.

If they were able and willing to communicate they would be doing it. Rolling eyes, losing temper, etc are all part of the script. 

Stop talking to her for a week (I've done that) and things work a lot better.


----------



## MEM2020

John, 
This is a flawless depiction of what happens when I'm in a power struggle with M2. 

But it's very rare when I'm in an 'all about you' mode with her. 

Up close, you can see all the complexity of J2.

But from a distance, I see someone who is wound very tight. 

I know that you are certain that J2 is a NNP and that M2 is a NP. 

And I also know that you didn't need to help J2 deal with her anxiety/tensions earlier in life. She was strong and independent. 

But the person you describe - is so emotionally wiped from their work, that there is little left of her when she gets home. 

I don't know if she sees you in an adversarial light, but she doesn't seem to come to you for comfort. 

I'm not being critical. The two of you - with your advanced degrees and your pride. You don't think she should need to be comforted for normal life stuff. And she is way, way to proud to ask for it. 

And so she remains wrapped in a tight little ball of stress. 

She might let you help her, if she didn't feel you would think less of her for needing the help. 

Some animals can't survive without their shells. J2's has a few layers. Perhaps the biggest is that mansion you live in. 

You don't need a shell. But you could be HER shell. 





john117 said:


> If you can do all that, in many cases you run head on into the 95%-5% rule. You spend all your time making your case, she knows you're right, if you're lucky she will nod golden retriever style, then will feed you back her party line.
> 
> In a collision between sincere communication and broken record, guess who wins most of the time. Hint. It ain't sincerity.
> 
> If they were able and willing to communicate they would be doing it. Rolling eyes, losing temper, etc are all part of the script.
> 
> Stop talking to her for a week (I've done that) and things work a lot better.


----------



## jld

I wish I could give that post a standing ovation, MEM. Best gift you have ever given John. 

John, I know you respect MEM. On behalf of your wife, I ask you -- please listen to what he is saying.


----------



## GettingIt_2

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> This is a flawless depiction of what happens when I'm in a power struggle with M2.
> 
> But it's very rare when I'm in an 'all about you' mode with her.
> 
> Up close, you can see all the complexity of J2.
> 
> But from a distance, I see someone who is wound very tight.
> 
> I know that you are certain that J2 is a NNP and that M2 is a NP.
> 
> And I also know that you didn't need to help J2 deal with her anxiety/tensions earlier in life. She was strong and independent.
> 
> But the person you describe - is so emotionally wiped from their work, that there is little left of her when she gets home.
> 
> I don't know if she sees you in an adversarial light, but she doesn't seem to come to you for comfort.
> 
> I'm not being critical. *The two of you - with your advanced degrees and your pride. You don't think she should need to be comforted for normal life stuff. And she is way, way to proud to ask for it.
> *
> And so she remains wrapped in a tight little ball of stress.
> 
> *She might let you help her, if she didn't feel you would think less of her for needing the help. *
> 
> Some animals can't survive without their shells. J2's has a few layers. Perhaps the biggest is that mansion you live in.
> 
> You don't need a shell. But you could be HER shell.


I've seen thousands of posts about John and his wife since joining TAM a year and a half ago . . . and this one is the first that really puts their dynamic (as I've come to understand) it in a nutshell. 

Hats off, MEM.


----------



## In Absentia

will be interesting to see what John thinks of that... I think I know already...


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



john117 said:


> If you can do all that, in many cases you run head on into the 95%-5% rule. You spend all your time making your case, she knows you're right, if you're lucky she will nod golden retriever style, then will feed you back her party line.
> 
> In a collision between sincere communication and broken record, guess who wins most of the time. Hint. It ain't sincerity.
> 
> If they were able and willing to communicate they would be doing it. Rolling eyes, losing temper, etc are all part of the script.
> 
> Stop talking to her for a week (I've done that) and things work a lot better.


Maybe so, John. But at least he truly knows what he is up against. 

Until such time as he does this, you will have people continuing to try to unlock the mystery of B2. 

BB, you have the answers you need. This is about your WILL. Do you have the will to wade through her verbal/emotional landmines in order to get to her soft under belly?


----------



## jld

I don't get why anyone thinks B2 is powerful. She is completely vulnerable. She is living in a fantasy world largely of her own making, as MEM has said. It makes her feel safe, however invalid the feeling.

But MEM, even you seem fearful of her. All that harsh, critical language says that to me. At least, it is the kind of language I use when I am giving my power to someone, allowing them to hurt me.

Weak, lying-to-themselves, protecting-their-image people are not powerful. The _truth_ is what is powerful. _That _is what truly strengthens us. Not unkind words or images.

All that really is necessary is firmness from BB. But he has to be ready to hear the truth from her, and I think he is not. And that, imo, is the reason he chooses not to sustain the confrontations he has begun. She is not the only one, as I see it, unwilling to drop her defenses and confront hard reality.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



jld said:


> All that really is necessary is firmness from BB. But he has to be ready to hear the truth from her, and I think he is not. And that, imo, is the reason he chooses not to sustain the confrontations he has begun. She is not the only one, as I see it, unwilling to drop her defenses and confront hard reality.


This is exactly the point I am trying to drive home to BB.


----------



## jld

Good!


----------



## BostonBruins32

:iagree:


jld said:


> I don't get why anyone thinks B2 is powerful. She is completely vulnerable. She is living in a fantasy world largely of her own making, as MEM has said. It makes her feel safe, however invalid the feeling.
> 
> But MEM, even you seem fearful of her. All that harsh, critical language says that to me. At least, it is the kind of language I use when I am giving my power to someone, allowing them to hurt me.
> 
> Weak, lying-to-themselves, protecting-their-image people are not powerful. The _truth_ is what is powerful. _That _is what truly strengthens us. Not unkind words or images.
> 
> All that really is necessary is firmness from BB. But he has to be ready to hear the truth from her, and I think he is not. And that, imo, is the reason he chooses not to sustain the confrontations he has begun. She is not the only one, as I see it, unwilling to drop her defenses and confront hard reality.


Its interesting to consider that I haven't been firm enough because I'm not ready for the truth. 

I've asked her for the truth about how she feels and or why she feels as she does. Asked in counseling. Asked in privacy of our own home. "im fine" (eye roll). "your the one who makes everything a big deal" (head shake). I dont bother talking to her about anything too serious anymore, unless she raises something. Not about the marriage anyways. I wont back down from B3, so much so that I even asked her to kindly talk to her parents about the aggressive yelling in front of her. 

The unknown, is more painful than the known in my mind. Again, when a new "need space" comes, I will have a very very different proactive approach (7 habits jld, that one was for you). This time around, I'm not going to spend hours, days, months, trying to get her to tell me the why. See, I still feel hurt sometimes or mildly depressed about some of the stuff thats gone on and about not understanding why I'm down on the relationship. Nov-Mar, when I felt this way, I tried to talk to her. Does anyone on this thread remember the dinner discussion about her friend's husbands income, when I asked why is it that she tells me about his and only his so frequently? She made fun of me and attacked me for it. I began to fight back, but realized the juice wasnt worth the squeeze. That was literally the moment I stopped turning to her when I felt down or just wanted a hug or something. I no longer do this because I felt like the laughing stock of the house when I said anything. So if I can not trust her to care about my truth, why on God's green earth should I sit around praying for her truth. I've offered a few outlets for her to show me how she feels deep down. No luck. 

JLD, I assume your message here is that I need actions to get her truth because asking her wont do it. I'm not sure what you mean about I can't handle the truth. Are you insinuating that she may admit to not loving me, or cheating on me, or something like this? help me understand what you mean.


----------



## farsidejunky

You just admitted you couldn't handle the truth a moment ago when you had your dinner discussion. Your wife has some very undesirable traits that can rub a sensitive man the wrong way. This is exactly what's happening to you and it's causing you to not be able to arrive at whatever it is behind the curtain. 

I don't know that any of us know what's behind the curtain BB. But what I will tell you is that you have the best shot at finding out. However, you will not find out until you're able to withstand her emotional terrorism.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld, in summary. I keep bumping my head against the idea of not trying hard enough.


WAAAAAAYYY deep down inside, I keep asking myself is anyone else in this house trying or is this just me? Results dont appear yet. Then I begin to wonder, am I just talking her into liking me or being attracted to me? thats weird no? I thought she loved me. I didnt know I had to convince her to love me. They sell drugs for that type of thing dont they?


----------



## BostonBruins32

farsidejunky said:


> You just admitted you couldn't handle the truth a moment ago when you had your dinner discussion. Your wife has some very undesirable traits that can rub a sensitive man the wrong way. This is exactly what's happening to you and it's causing you to not be able to arrive at whatever it is behind the curtain.
> 
> I don't know that any of us know what's behind the curtain BB. But what I will tell you is that you have the best shot at finding out. However, you will not find out until you're able to withstand her emotional terrorism.


No farside. I wanted the truth there. I wanted to hear what she really thought or why she brought up the one wealthier guy in our circle. I wanted to hear it. I didnt want her to roll her eyes and laugh at me. I wanted the truth. Thats why i asked.

Was the laughing the truth? I dont speak Hyena. Was the eye roll the truth? I dont speak eyerollish. It may have been the truth, to which I truly have a lot of translation work to do.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



BostonBruins32 said:


> No farside. I wanted the truth there. I wanted to hear what she really thought or why she brought up the one wealthier guy in our circle. I wanted to hear it. I didnt want her to roll her eyes and laugh at me. I wanted the truth. Thats why i asked.


Emotional terrorism. You allowed it to take you off task. You backed off when it started to get tough, BB. Now you are left to wonder.

ETA: And the fact that you blame her is actually you rationalizing your inability to deal with her emotional terrorism. Her fault? Bull shyte. She is weak, BB.


----------



## BostonBruins32

farsidejunky said:


> Emotional terrorism. You allowed it to take you off task. You backed off when it started to get tough, BB. Now you are left to wonder.
> 
> ETA: And the fact that you blame her is actually you rationalizing your inability to deal with her emotional terrorism. Her fault? Bull shyte. She is weak, BB.


So an option would have been to continue to pry (maybe after the restaurant) to get it out of her? I could try this tactic, but in previous experiences where I have pressed on something, she has increasingly shut down. Went from quiet, to silent, to silent and avoid-ant. blood from a stone. its hard to do.


----------



## In Absentia

BostonBruins32 said:


> So an option would have been to continue to pry (maybe after the restaurant) to get it out of her? I could try this tactic, but in previous experiences where I have pressed on something, she has increasingly shut down. Went from quiet, to silent, to silent and avoid-ant. blood from a stone. its hard to do.


sigh... having a wife who's an expert in non-communication, I feel for you. But you need to extract the truth from her. Otherwise you won't be able to move on... whatever that is...


----------



## john117

In Absentia said:


> will be interesting to see what John thinks of that... I think I know already...



MEM's analysis is fairly accurate based on the information I have provided. A few additions.

J2 is very needy with material and practical help - a combination of lack of interest in how the world operates, lack of mental bandwidth to handle them, and general contempt for all things "beneath her". She probably knows how to take her car to the BMW dealership or gas station but what happens there is of no concern to her. 

This dependence does not extend to emotional needs - of which there are few.

The emotional wiping out from work is by choice. She chooses to work 12-14 hours a day at her pace (one eye on the Thinkpad and one on TV or the house). I generally get more done in 7 hours a day I usually work  than she does in 14. This is part of her "shell" also. 

She derives status and comfort from work as well - considering talking about coworkers and work conspiracy plots is nearly all she ever talks about. 

It's as if work gives her purpose in life. She does not comprehend the idea of people being people. It's all North Korea style single purpose to work and maintain her social status. Which is stupid because we don't socialize much - if at all - so it's all for internal consumption.

But all that is just symptoms. The root causes are far simpler and non fixable.

- BPD leaves little emotional processing bandwidth available. 

- BPD and lack of empathy have little concern for the mundane, everyday activities that most non BPD's cherish.

- strong familial role models that can't be undone, such as father figure working for months at a time away from home to avoid the rest of the family.

- strong cultural role models that discourage useful emotions and exalt other emotions (anger)

One may be able to fix one or two of the above but not all. Hence...


----------



## jld

BB, I have written four intense replies to you and lost three of them. The other did not seem right. 

I don't think we are meant to tell you the answers. This is _your_ journey. You need to earn your own respect. And hers.

Read WOTSM for inspiration.


----------



## BostonBruins32

you wrote and sent them ? or didnt send them?

either way, I get that its my battle. But i think we're all on this site for some reason, that is seeking feedback. If we're being honest, I think we could all say we're looking for a silver bullet to resolve all these issues. 

More proof that shes reading this thread, kidding i think, no ipad time last night. That makes 3 days in a row of minimal ipad/phone time. Shes either on to me or the guys on her facebook are on vacation.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



BostonBruins32 said:


> So an option would have been to continue to pry (maybe after the restaurant) to get it out of her? I could try this tactic, but in previous experiences where I have pressed on something, she has increasingly shut down. Went from quiet, to silent, to silent and avoid-ant. blood from a stone. its hard to do.


If that is what it took. Or try another approach. But don't frigging quit.

Oh, and that part about not speaking hyena or eyerollish you said to me? That smells of a defense mechanism when I am making YOU uncomfortable for calling YOU out. You are once again rationalizing quitting.

Here is the the truth, BB. And this is going to be blunt. You keep waiting on your wife to rescue you. Yet you know she either can't or wont. So what have you done? You have quit on your wife. Sure, you have done well for yourself. You have improved tremendously in other areas. But you have quit on her. Period. The last several months of this thread is just you rationalizing it. Almost like you are trying to convince yourself that it is okay. But you have still quit. Basically you have divorced your wife without having left her. 

If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting.


----------



## jld

That last line made me laugh, BB. Glad you can keep a sense of humor, though I know there is pain underneath. ((BB))

My backspace key freezes, and then the screen goes blank. Or the screen just goes blank with a reloading sign at the top. And then posts that I have agonized over, poured my soul into, get lost.

Anybody know what is wrong with my iPad? Ds15 says it is a glitch from the latest update.


----------



## BostonBruins32

farsidejunky said:


> If that is what it took. Or try another approach. But don't frigging quit.
> 
> Oh, and that part about not speaking hyena or eyerollish you said to me? That smells of a defense mechanism when I am making YOU uncomfortable for calling YOU out. You are once again rationalizing quitting.
> 
> Here is the the truth, BB. And this is going to be blunt. You keep waiting on your wife to rescue you. Yet you know she either can't or wont. So what have you done? You have quit on your wife. Sure, you have done well for yourself. You have improved tremendously in other areas. But you have quit on her. Period. The last several months of this thread is just you rationalizing it. Almost like you are trying to convince yourself that it is okay. But you have still quit. Basically you have divorced your wife without having left her.
> 
> If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting.


pretty fair assessment. I have to think about this a bit.


----------



## Openminded

jld said:


> That last line made me laugh, BB. Glad you can keep a sense of humor, though I know there is pain underneath. ((BB))
> 
> My backspace key freezes, and then the screen goes blank. Or the screen just goes blank with a reloading sign at the top. And then posts that I have agonized over, poured my soul into, get lost.
> 
> Anybody know what is wrong with my iPad? Ds15 says it is a glitch from the latest update.


Yes, that's one of the "gifts" from iOS8. It's maddening. And why I keep my posts very short.


----------



## jld

Thanks, Openminded. That would be a challenge for me, keeping posts short.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



BostonBruins32 said:


> More proof that shes reading this thread, kidding i think, no ipad time last night. That makes 3 days in a row of minimal ipad/phone time. Shes either on to me or the guys on her facebook are on vacation.


Did you communicate to her that it pleased you?

"B2, I just want to say how enjoyable it's been the last few nights with you. I feel like we've connected better in this time that we have in a really long time. I would like more of it with you."

Just speaking from experience, but when I give my wife credit for something that she's done on an emotional level, she walks on clouds over it. On some level, I think she believed that she was not a good person. 

BB, I bet that B2 knows facebook is a barrier to intimacy. But she may dislike some parts of herself so much that it is safer than actually being vulnerable to you. That is why praising her when she does put it down for the night is so crucial. 

And it may not be, but this is part of what you need to find out and / or rule out.


----------



## jld

Do you think she is just growing, BB? Just as you are growing and changing as you get older, she is, too? 

Maybe it has something to do with the changes you have made, and maybe she is just evolving the way we all naturally do? 

Not everything has to be planned and executed in life. Sometimes we can just relax and see what happens. We don't necessarily have to force things.

Maybe as she relaxes and you two naturally start to reconnect, she will be able to tell you on her own, or with some gentle encouragement, what happened. And at that time, it won't all seem so intense and overwhelming.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
Freeze this frame here. 

This is huge. Because I remember encouraging you to address this with her. I do. 

And she was embarrassed when you caught her doing this. She was being shallow and sort of manipulative.

So she turned the whole thing around and mocked you. Because SHE felt bad. 

If you don't believe it, riddle me this: has she done it since? 






farsidejunky said:


> You just admitted you couldn't handle the truth a moment ago when you had your dinner discussion. Your wife has some very undesirable traits that can rub a sensitive man the wrong way. This is exactly what's happening to you and it's causing you to not be able to arrive at whatever it is behind the curtain.
> 
> I don't know that any of us know what's behind the curtain BB. But what I will tell you is that you have the best shot at finding out. However, you will not find out until you're able to withstand her emotional terrorism.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> Freeze this frame here.
> 
> This is huge. Because I remember encouraging you to address this with her. I do.
> 
> And she was embarrassed when you caught her doing this. She was being shallow and sort of manipulative.
> 
> So she turned the whole thing around and mocked you. Because SHE felt bad.
> 
> If you don't believe it, riddle me this: has she done it since?



zing. interesting tidbit. no i havent heard what this guy makes or anyone makes since. so despite acting like I was a loser for mentioning it, she heard me. Could be on to something, though thats a pretty sh*tty way to go about business.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> zing. interesting tidbit. no i havent heard what this guy makes or anyone makes since. so despite acting like I was a loser for mentioning it, she heard me. Could be on to something, though thats a *pretty sh*tty way *to go about business.


That is reactive, BB. It gives her the power to hurt you. I know it is how you honestly feel, and it is good to get it out. But now let's try to reframe it.

How could you change that in your mind to support a paradigm shift in the way you see your wife?


----------



## Anon Pink

You said you weren't sure how to lead her or how to get her to communicate with you. 

First Lesson: Addressing grenades and enders.

Boston, as a mother of 3 daughters I urge you to grow immune to eye rolling, hair balling, and sarcastic defenses used to misdirect or end the conversation. Honestly, after 3 daughters I think its programed to begin on their first period and its up to the parent to teach them a healthier way to problem solve.

She rolls her eyes at you, you respond by calling her out, each and every damn time! "Don't roll your eyes at me! Its dismissive and immature. Now talk to me like we're both grown ups." *And you say this each and every damn time!*

She coughs up a hairball after you say something she doesn't like, you respond with; "I take it that noise you just made means you disagree. I'll give you a moment to gather your thoughts and respond better." *And you say this each and every damn time!*

She cuts you off with sarcasm, you respond with; "Your sarcasm isn't' helping us to understand each other. I'll give you a moment to think about what you want to say." *You say this each and every damn time.*

You stay right there with her. You don't leave the room. *You respond like a broken record each and every damn time. *If she walks away from you call her back and tell her this WILL be discussed. 

If she refuses to come back you follow her and you *give her the words to express herself.* "You can't talk right now because you're too frustrated and need some time. That's okay. How about after B3 goes to bed tonight?"

Class dismissed.

BTW iOS8 absolutely sucks! Had to log on with my PC. I think there is a compatibility glitch with TAM because other web sites don't freeze.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> That is reactive, BB. It gives her the power to hurt you. I know it is how you honestly feel, and it is good to get it out. But now let's try to reframe it.
> 
> How could you change that in your mind to support a paradigm shift in the way you see your wife?


I hear ya jld..but lets keep the reactive thing in scope here.

When the Bruins give up a power play goal, I also say out loud to my tv "are you kidding me, that sucks". Covey would probably try to smooth talk me out of this. But remain in scope here..I think we're allowed to have real feelings about something, but how we handle it is the money maker. In this case, I'm simply saying it on an anonymous forum.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



BostonBruins32 said:


> I hear ya jld..but lets keep the reactive thing in scope here.
> 
> When the Bruins give up a power play goal, I also say out loud to my tv "are you kidding me, that sucks". Covey would probably try to smooth talk me out of this. But remain in scope here..I think we're allowed to have real feelings about something, but how we handle it is the money maker. In this case, I'm simply saying it on an anonymous forum.


She doesn't have to see your reactions. All she knows is she can derail you quite easily when she starts to get uncomfortable. 

B2: I will just roll my eyes and he will back off.

She has you pegged. Snatch that rug out from under her the next time she tries to pull that crap. But that requires you to stay ENGAGED.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> You said you weren't sure how to lead her or how to get her to communicate with you.
> 
> First Lesson: Addressing grenades and enders.
> 
> Boston, as a mother of 3 daughters I urge you to grow immune to eye rolling, hair balling, and sarcastic defenses used to misdirect or end the conversation. Honestly, after 3 daughters I think its programed to begin on their first period and its up to the parent to teach them a healthier way to problem solve.
> 
> She rolls her eyes at you, you respond by calling her out, each and every damn time! "Don't roll your eyes at me! Its dismissive and immature. Now talk to me like we're both grown ups." *And you say this each and every damn time!*
> 
> She coughs up a hairball after you say something she doesn't like, you respond with; "I take it that noise you just made means you disagree. I'll give you a moment to gather your thoughts and respond better." *And you say this each and every damn time!*
> 
> She cuts you off with sarcasm, you respond with; "Your sarcasm isn't' helping us to understand each other. I'll give you a moment to think about what you want to say." *You say this each and every damn time.*
> 
> You stay right there with her. You don't leave the room. *You respond like a broken record each and every damn time. *If she walks away from you call her back and tell her this WILL be discussed.
> 
> If she refuses to come back you follow her and you *give her the words to express herself.* "You can't talk right now because you're too frustrated and need some time. That's okay. How about after B3 goes to bed tonight?" *3 hours later.. after B3 is in bed, "so do you want to try to tell me what it is you were so mad/frustrated/hurt by?" deep sigh with head shake.. "im fine." rinse and repeat. I get your point, but I've done this 1,000 times. Ive literally said, "i know your upset now, maybe we can talk a little later". When I follow up later, I get a look somewhere between smelling like a fart/a pervert/loser. the look accompanies, "no i dont want to talk im fine". Tried this EASILY 1,000 times. Doesnt work. Thats why I'm trying to figure out what option would work. Not sure how to make this more clear for the folks on here, but she will not talk. Not when angry. Not when sad. Not when happy. I even tried to email her this scphiel to give her a different avenue. no luck. I'm not "quitting" or "sounding angry", I'm just really trying to sift through the rubble and figure out what I havent tried and or what has worked, but I havent noticed. *
> 
> Class dismissed.
> 
> BTW iOS8 absolutely sucks! Had to log on with my PC. I think there is a compatibility glitch with TAM because other web sites don't freeze.


----------



## jld

BostonBruins32 said:


> I hear ya jld..but lets keep the reactive thing in scope here.
> 
> When the Bruins give up a power play goal, I also say out loud to my tv "are you kidding me, that sucks". Covey would probably try to smooth talk me out of this. But remain in scope here..I think we're allowed to have real feelings about something, but how we handle it is the money maker. In this case, I'm simply saying it on an anonymous forum.


"That player was just out for an injury. I don't think he has quite healed. That second play they did was masterful, but the later ones did not succeed. Would a change of players at 3/4 time make a difference?"

Think like a coach, BB. You are taking a weak team and strengthening it. That is your mission. Unless you resign midway through the season.

_You are not a spectator._


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> She doesn't have to see your reactions. All she knows is she can derail you quite easily when she starts to get uncomfortable.
> 
> B2: I will just roll my eyes and he will back off.
> 
> She has you pegged. Snatch that rug out from under her the next time she tries to pull that crap. But that requires you to stay ENGAGED.


She is not doing it on purpose. It is her self defense instinct kicking in. When she does not have to protect herself, it will fall away naturally.

Paradigm shift in how we view Mrs. BB needed.


----------



## john117

Boston, thanks for sparing me from having to respond in largely the same words. 

Anon, I raised two girls and never saw the behavior you mentioned - my girls are too rational I suppose. They know I can see thru it. 

Remember what I said:

1. Broken record trumps rational thought

2. In the event of a tie, the less rational person of the two wins

Maybe B2 upgraded to iOS 8?


----------



## BostonBruins32

I mean i get anons point and jlds point.

but the tone here is that i havent tried it. i mentioned earlier, the more I press or bring up something the deeper she goes into shell. I havent tried it once, i've tried it 1,043 times. I haven't spent the past year trying to crack the code? really?


----------



## jld

She is relaxing with you. If you do not want to do anything different, and you continue to see progress, just doing what you are already doing may be good enough.

_I_ would challenge you to replace every negative thought ("****ty" business comment, above) with something that reflects seeking to understand her. See the coach monologue above. 

When you shift how you see her, if you will make the effort to try that, you may find your attitude and actions towards her naturally becoming even more positive, because you will not be reacting from a defensive posture. And will likely find yourself receiving more from her in kind.

And now I am off to the grocery!


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



BostonBruins32 said:


> I mean i get anons point and jlds point.
> 
> but the tone here is that i havent tried it. i mentioned earlier, the more I press or bring up something the deeper she goes into shell. I havent tried it once, i've tried it 1,043 times. I haven't spent the past year trying to crack the code? really?


Nobody is saying that. 

Okay, Tom Brady. Your kick returner muffs and you are starting a drive from your own 2 (your marriage). You move to the line of scrimmage for the snap (initiate the talk). Your pre snap read shows they are bringing a jail break (she rolls her eyes, disrespect, etc.). Are you going to look at that scheme and decide that you don't really want to play anymore?

Or are you going to audible to post patterns or a quick out to beat the blitz? 

So far, all I have seen you do is call a timeout over and over again. In football, you are limited to three in a half. Maybe you should impose the same limit on yourself.


----------



## Anon Pink

> 3 hours later.. after B3 is in bed, "so do you want to try to tell me what it is you were so mad/frustrated/hurt by?" deep sigh with head shake.. "im fine." rinse and repeat. I get your point, but I've done this 1,000 times. Ive literally said, "i know your upset now, maybe we can talk a little later". When I follow up later, I get a look somewhere between smelling like a fart/a pervert/loser. the look accompanies, "no i dont want to talk im fine". Tried this EASILY 1,000 times. Doesnt work. Thats why I'm trying to figure out what option would work. Not sure how to make this more clear for the folks on here, but she will not talk. Not when angry. Not when sad. Not when happy. I even tried to email her this scphiel to give her a different avenue. no luck. I'm not "quitting" or "sounding angry", I'm just really trying to sift through the rubble and figure out what I havent tried and or what has worked, but I havent noticed.



MEM already covered this.



MEM said:


> Just like at the office, preparation is the key to success. And just like at work, the less you let it be about you, the better the outcome.
> 
> Prior to attempting to engage with B2 a short self talk is in order.
> 
> 1. I Boston am good at intimacy. If B2 pushes me away, it's because she fears it, and/or dislikes it. That isn't about me, and I won't take it personally.
> 2. I'm going to expect and prepare for B2's standard resistance package which is largely non verbal - eye rolling, facial expressions etc.
> 
> When I approach B2 I'm going start with some non verbal anesthetic.
> - Slow approach
> - Soft touch on her arm
> - Direct eye contact
> - Gently concerned facial expression
> 
> Boston: Let me help you
> B2: Eye rolling, irritated face
> Boston: (totally unfazed - and unhurt) I'm here to help you
> B2: (irritated) what do you want?
> Boston: I'm sorry that you are afraid of (pausing) feeling close to me. And I honestly don't know why THAT (touching ipad) is more important than engaging with me and B3.
> B2: Why are you trying to (control me, smother me, ...) - anger as a tool to avoid honest communication
> Boston: I'm trying to love you, and also trying to teach you how to love B3 by way of my example. Trying, but not succeeding.
> B2: (sarcastically) Fine. How do you plan to help me?
> Boston: Let's start with a question. Why aren't you happy?
> 
> And then if you can get to it: What do you really want from life?
> 
> No matter what she says - don't argue. You don't have to agree. But don't argue. If you think she's pushing you away via cruelty or deceit, you can ask, but don't let her upset you.
> 
> For example:
> Boston: (smiling gently): Is that really how you feel, or are you saying that in the hope that you'll hurt me and I will leave you alone?
> 
> -------
> This type conversation might or might not be a step in the right direction.
> 
> But it's a certain and EPIC fail if you engage like this and allow B2 to destabilize you. From start to end, you need to be impervious to her attempts to push you away.
> 
> BTW: when you prep, you always prep for the worst case scenario. That means you imagine her saying: I can't do this anymore
> 
> And you imagine yourself hearing that and remaining engaged, calm and soft.
> 
> That means if you hear that - it stays all about her with: I'm sorry that you are so unhappy. I'll support you, whatever you want to do. And no matter what happens I will always be grateful to you for B3.
> 
> -----------
> As for car rides where she gets lost in her phone. Before you agree to go you say: If this is going to be a Boston excursion I would LIKE to go. If this is going to be an iPhone excursion I'll pass.
> 
> Same with visits to her family.
> 
> ---------
> For now, I want you to think of your interactions with B2 in the following manner. Is her conduct:
> - Pulling you closer
> - Pushing you away
> - Neutral
> 
> BTW: asking you to go shopping and then heavily iPhoning is actually pushing you away.


Boston, you've said several times in this thread that she ends any and all conversations in which intimacy and honesty might be established. She pushes you away and there you stay. MEM has given you a road map to get it back.

John, you know I like you and I respect you. But I grow tired of your pessimism. you claim not to, but you do see most of the threads through your frame of a highly resistant and emotionally dysfunctional wife and you simply cannot apply your frame to MOST situations. 

While I don't doubt your word that you never saw it from your daughters, I'd happily point out that my H didn't see it either. I was the one who called them back into the room to restate what they just said without the sarcasm, eye rolling and hair balling.


----------



## john117

Anon, I'm not the pessimist one. You're the optimist one. Like most Americans.

Optimismus Americanus got people on the moon and designed miracle devices. But Optinismus Americanus fails miserably in interpersonal issues.

It's a cultural trait that could use some revisiting. My boss is poster boy for optimism.. He thinks everything is possible. He needs people like me to remind him what is likely 

The parts I wrote about broken record have nothing to do with my specific case incidentally. They are common human traits.


----------



## Anon Pink

For an American, I'm not very optimistic. But i do make a habit of not being an Eeyore.

I've already had to search through the last 10 pages of posts (at 40 per page) to find MEM's post above. Please direct me to your statement regarding broken records.

There is room for optimism here, I think. Otherwise I wouldn't' even bother posting. I try not to waste my time in threads in which it is obvious the OP just wants validation to continue to the path of destruction he/she has already been on. This constitutes the majority of the threads here. 

So this has me wondering about you John. Why do you bother to post in threads when the vast majority of your posts are essentially saying it wont work.

I think you are seeking validation for your own course of action. More kindred spirits with whom to hoist a pint and piss on the ring with?

And I wholly vehemently disagree with the "could use some revisiting" idea. Our cultural optimism is beginning to die off right now and I think if there is one thing everyone can agree on it is that loss will be the death knell of this country.


----------



## BostonBruins32

anon, ill repeat. 

When I run that tape that MEM outlined to talk to her, she says "nothing" or "im fine, your the one with the issue". I'm not making that up. MEM says, "no matter what she says.." but wait..she doesnt say anything. if she responded, I think that would be a great conversation. but I've had similar conversations and she goes quiet. I end up talking to a box of wheat thins. 

thats what I think we're missing here. ever argue with a tree? its challenging because the tree just refuses to admit it has leaves or bark. the tree wont tell me about why it moved to this forest or which other bush it likes. it wont say anything about how it feels. It just sits there.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> anon, ill repeat.
> 
> When I run that tape that MEM outlined to talk to her, *she says "nothing" or "im fine, your the one with the issue".* I'm not making that up. MEM says, "no matter what she says.." but wait..she doesnt say anything. if she responded, I think that would be a great conversation. but I've had similar conversations and she goes quiet. I end up talking to a box of wheat thins.
> 
> thats what I think we're missing here. ever argue with a tree? its challenging because the tree just refuses to admit it has leaves or bark. the tree wont tell me about why it moved to this forest or which other bush it likes. it wont say anything about how it feels. It just sits there.


And then what do you do?


----------



## farsidejunky

Then I would deliberately aggravate her until she blew up. Then I would smile at her and say "See? I knew there was something! This is awesome! Let's continue."


----------



## Anon Pink

farsidejunky said:


> Then I would deliberately aggravate her until she blew up. Then I would smile at her and say "See? I knew there was something! This is awesome! Let's continue."



Exactly!

My minds in the gutter today... I was thinking he should bring out the restraints and paddle and not let her up until she talks!

Yes please! Perhaps I'll pick a fight when Mr Pink returns home tomorrow!


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> And then what do you do?


depends on the episode. A few times ive left it be (more recently). Before that I would try to gentle it out of her. I told her I was here for her no matter how she feels. I told her that it helps me feel closer to her when she opens up to me. etc. I would typically press a little. She would eye roll, get angry, and or go quiet and ignore. I'm not going to sit at the end of the couch and talk to myself for 2 hours. Ive tried it. Doesnt work so hot. I did even try to put more pressure on it (way back), stating that she really needs to talk to me because I am very unable to read her mind and I care about how she feels bcause i love her. "nothing, i dont want to talk about anything". The MC did lay into her a little once before she quit MC, saying "your husband is not a mind reader. you really need to tell him how you feel, even if just a brief honest version of it". She got angry with that (was quiet for duration of that visit).

More recently (past x amount of months) if she seemed off kilt I may just casually ask her how shes doing, hows work etc . just to gage if she wanted to talk. She opens about work and her friends etc but nothing overly serious about us. 


And as I'm typing, maybe she doesnt feel bad or sensitive about the relationship. Maybe nothing really is wrong. Maybe she feels fine about me and us. Maybe I am overthinking everything.


----------



## GettingIt_2

john117 said:


> Maybe B2 upgraded to iOS 8?


:rofl:


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> depends on the episode. A few times ive left it be (more recently). Before that I would try to gentle it out of her. I told her I was here for her no matter how she feels. I told her that it helps me feel closer to her when she opens up to me. etc. I would typically press a little. She would eye roll, get angry, and or go quiet and ignore. I'm not going to sit at the end of the couch and talk to myself for 2 hours. Ive tried it. Doesnt work so hot. I did even try to put more pressure on it (way back), stating that she really needs to talk to me because I am very unable to read her mind and I care about how she feels bcause i love her. "nothing, i dont want to talk about anything". The MC did lay into her a little once before she quit MC, saying "your husband is not a mind reader. you really need to tell him how you feel, even if just a brief honest version of it". She got angry with that (was quiet for duration of that visit).
> 
> More recently (past x amount of months) if she seemed off kilt I may just casually ask her how shes doing, hows work etc . just to gage if she wanted to talk. She opens about work and her friends etc but nothing overly serious about us.
> 
> 
> And as I'm typing, maybe she doesnt feel bad or sensitive about the relationship. Maybe nothing really is wrong. Maybe she feels fine about me and us. Maybe I am overthinking everything.


May be....

However, one thing is clear and that is that her behavior is bugging the crap out of you. So what will you do about that?


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

Most of the time - if you really know someone - and you have a light touch - you can get into someone's head.

First - I'm going to apologize for giving you some bad advice on this thread. That wasn't my intention. 

There were too many overlaps between B2 and M2, this thread has been lightly triggering me on and off. 

So - lets rewind to the week leading up to that conversation. 

My suggestion was that you directly confront B2 on this. Because she was being unappreciative, and unkind. 

--------
Except, I wasn't anywhere near 'in the moment' giving you that advice. I was reliving a conversation I had with M2 back in 1997. 

FWIW: I was not consciously giving you bad advice. And at the time wasn't even thinking specifically about what happened With M2. 
--------

Let's take another look at that conversation. 

First of all, these conversations are painful to a LOT of couples. That's why finances drive more divorces than any other factor.

B2 knows she cannot directly influence your familial lifestyle outcome. She lacks your drive, head for business, interpersonal skills. 

The one and only thing she can do, is point out the lifestyle she aspires to. That's pretty much the only influence she feels that she has. 

She was just conveying what she wanted. Honestly. 

-------
And your issue wasn't that she was expressing a desire. Your issue was that she rarely/never expressed gratitude for what you'd already accomplished. 

I totally get that. 

But what happened, partly thanks to my bad advice was: she's day dreaming out loud (in a sort of indirect way) via a 'isn't it great how our friends have such a posh lifestyle'

And the guy it all depends on crashes into the day dream and implies she's materialistic and ungrateful. Which was a totally 'out of pattern' move on his part. 

Sorry man. I screwed this one up. 

Should have told you, to lay out your day dream - the couple you know who are the tightest, the most loving. The best co parents. Without making any direct and negative contrast with hers. 




QUOTE=BostonBruins32;10914090]I mean i get anons point and jlds point.

but the tone here is that i havent tried it. i mentioned earlier, the more I press or bring up something the deeper she goes into shell. I havent tried it once, i've tried it 1,043 times. I haven't spent the past year trying to crack the code? really?[/QUOTE]


----------



## john117

Not for validation Anon. I'm fascinated by how people think and what basic cognitive processes drive their thinking. 

People like you and jld and my boss believe in the fundamental goodness of people. I don't. J2 doesn't. While I could accept that Americans are for the most part fundamentally good people compared to the "didn't we get invaded last week" people of my birth country or the "mullah knows best" mentality of J2's country I still don't accept that everyone is fundamentally a decent human being, especially not if they demonstrate traits that make us wonder.

Philosophy and TAM.. What a mix


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Exactly!
> 
> My minds in the gutter today... I was thinking he should bring out the restraints and paddle and not let her up until she talks!
> 
> Yes please! Perhaps I'll pick a fight when Mr Pink returns home tomorrow!


that sounds hot. i'll keep this in mind during my 18 minute shower.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Anon Pink said:


> Exactly!
> 
> My minds in the gutter today... I was thinking he should bring out the restraints and paddle and not let her up until she talks!


That sounds like a dare. AP, was that a dare?

From the first pages of this epic thread, I've been rooting for BB to out-dom his wife. Hell, I think she's prodding him, _daring_ him to out-dom her. She just can't ask for it directly. If ever a relationship was screaming out for (consensual) power exchange, it's this one. 

Disclaimer: Uh, in my very humble and biased opinion.


----------



## Anon Pink

You know what I think is even hotter? Just hold her down kissing her neck and not let her up until she talks or O's. Crowd her, get in her space, don't let her look away...
Yup that's a dare. Give a shot Boston. Report back...


----------



## BostonBruins32

The dare and you sound angry or scared comments don't really fire me up or motivate me. Especially sexual ideas .

Like when she told her girlfriend a few weeks ago how hot it was going to get at the hotel after. Her friend came up to me later and said you're on for a treat. B2 was tired after the wedding ended at 10, and rigjy to sleep we went. This always happens in social events. Her girls must think she's pouncing on me daily. 

Anyhow . But still pretty funny stuff. Your hubs far lucky dudes.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> You know what I think is even hotter? Just hold her down kissing her neck and not let her up until she talks or O's. Crowd her, get in her space, don't let her look away...



Let me first try it in the lab with my intern and see what happens :rofl:


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> The dare and you sound angry or scared comments don't really fire me up or motivate me. Especially sexual ideas .
> 
> Like when she told her girlfriend a few weeks ago how hot it was going to get at the hotel after. Her friend came up to me later and said you're on for a treat. B2 was tired after the wedding ended at 10, and rigjy to sleep we went. This always happens in social events. Her girls must think she's pouncing on me daily.


John, John is that you???? Did you hack BB's account? :nono:

Just kidding. Come on BB--don't sound so defeatist. As my husband says, "Embrace the crazy!" 

Besides you don't have to FEEL fired up or motivated in order to take action that might actually be THE thing to break you out of this plateau you seem to have hit. If someone told you you'd never have a headache again if you ate a plate of brussels spouts (assuming you hate brussels sprouts) would you wrinkle up your nose and say, "I don't feel like it"?


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> The dare and you sound angry or scared comments don't really fire me up or motivate me. Especially sexual ideas .
> 
> Like when she told her girlfriend a few weeks ago how hot it was going to get at the hotel after. Her friend came up to me later and said you're on for a treat. B2 was tired after the wedding ended at 10, and rigjy to sleep we went. This always happens in social events. Her girls must think she's pouncing on me daily.
> 
> Anyhow . But still pretty funny stuff. Your hubs far lucky dudes.


I used to do the same thing to mr pink. And he'd wait...and wait...and wait.... So passive I hated it! HATED it, biggest turn off ever! He was waiting for me to say, okay "honey lets have sexual intercourse" because I had rejected him so many times I practically had to spell it out.

Oh Boston, if I could wave a magic wand (not talking about the plug in kind) it would be to make you impervious to her eye rolling, to think her hair balls are cute, and to perceive all sacastic replies as a direct request for a spanking!

You should have been undressing her in the elevator! Chasing her down the hall, pushing her up against the wall and planting a sloppy one on her!


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> Let me first try it in the lab with my intern and see what happens :rofl:


Go for it! Report back!


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> Go for it! Report back!



I'm working on buttering up intern's mom actually .


----------



## Anon Pink

You go tiger!


----------



## Trickster

BostonBruins32 said:


> depends on the episode. A few times ive left it be (more recently). Before that I would try to gentle it out of her. I told her I was here for her no matter how she feels. I told her that it helps me feel closer to her when she opens up to me. etc. I would typically press a little. She would eye roll, get angry, and or go quiet and ignore. I'm not going to sit at the end of the couch and talk to myself for 2 hours. Ive tried it. Doesnt work so hot. I did even try to put more pressure on it (way back), stating that she really needs to talk to me because I am very unable to read her mind and I care about how she feels bcause i love her. "nothing, i dont want to talk about anything". The MC did lay into her a little once before she quit MC, saying "your husband is not a mind reader. you really need to tell him how you feel, even if just a brief honest version of it". She got angry with that (was quiet for duration of that visit).
> 
> More recently (past x amount of months) if she seemed off kilt I may just casually ask her how shes doing, hows work etc . just to gage if she wanted to talk. She opens about work and her friends etc but nothing overly serious about us.
> 
> 
> And as I'm typing, maybe she doesnt feel bad or sensitive about the relationship. Maybe nothing really is wrong. Maybe she feels fine about me and us. Maybe I am overthinking everything.



I still think k we have somewhat parallel lives...Mrs.T is just like the tree you talk about... When we upped the sex to 3X a week, I still wanted to talk because something was still wrong. She said, " we have sex 3X a week, what more do you want?"

After 3-1/2 years of trying to get her to talk, she finally did...

She doesn't love me romantically, she likes me for companionship and to keep an intact home for our daughter. She will have sex when I want, but she let's me know with her attitude it is for my benefit. She can take it or leave it... She is even fine if I get sex elsewhere. I think to get her off the hook with sex 

She is totally void of emotions. She has no need to discuss "us". She is totally fine with "us"...My wife doesn't want to divorce... She doesn't care what I do, where I go, who I have lunch with, and really who I have sex with, as long as we stay married and the bills get paid most of the time...

I am the broken one. I am the emotional one. I was the one doing all the changing and my wife probably was humored by it all..when the time comes and I have sex with another woman, that will destroy me with guilt...

Boston

I think I get everything you are going through.

I follow your thread now because it is eerily similar to mine...I hope yours has a different outcome than mine.


----------



## Anon Pink

Trickster, if you reverse the roles in your post, everyone would be screaming for blood! The hurt must be overwhelming.

Honey, it is time to GO! Well past time.


----------



## In Absentia

Trickster said:


> I still think k we have somewhat parallel lives...Mrs.T is just like the tree you talk about... When we upped the sex to 3X a week, I still wanted to talk because something was still wrong. She said, " we have sex 3X a week, what more do you want?"
> 
> After 3-1/2 years of trying to get her to talk, she finally did...
> 
> She doesn't love me romantically, she likes me for companionship and to keep an intact home for our daughter. She will have sex when I want, but she let's me know with her attitude it is for my benefit. She can take it or leave it... She is even fine if I get sex elsewhere. I think to get her off the hook with sex
> 
> She is totally void of emotions. She has no need to discuss "us". She is totally fine with "us"...My wife doesn't want to divorce... She doesn't care what I do, where I go, who I have lunch with, and really who I have sex with, as long as we stay married and the bills get paid most of the time...
> 
> I am the broken one. I am the emotional one. I was the one doing all the changing and my wife probably was humored by it all..when the time comes and I have sex with another woman, that will destroy me with guilt...
> 
> Boston
> 
> I think I get everything you are going through.
> 
> I follow your thread now because it is eerily similar to mine...I hope yours has a different outcome than mine.


Have you married my wife? Only that she's decided now she is done with sex...


----------



## In Absentia

Anon Pink said:


> because I had rejected him so many times I practically had to spell it out.



and do you find it strange?


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon .. Passive? 

She brags about us having a great sex life to her friend the gets tired or sick later that night. This happened for 3+ years. Forgive me if I'm not buying the pyramid scheme investment. It's like my mom telling me she'll be on time to our next gathering, which would break 60 years of trending. 

Ps another night , no ipad. Hi b2 if you're reading this I have a meeting until 545 , so I'll be later than normal tonight.


----------



## T&T

BostonBruins32 said:


> She brags about us having a great sex life to her friend the gets tired or sick later that night. This happened for 3+ years


Hi BB,

And...Have you ever called her on that? 

Another "fake/made up life" just like facebook.


----------



## jld

It sounds like things are getting better on their own, BB. Maybe it is a delayed response to all the changes you have made. Maybe she just needed to outgrow facebook.

Well, I am happy for you. I hope the trend continues.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I have. She basically said oh stop it, don't be so serious. Or something similar. I have tried the jld open your heart approach of sincere feedback. No more. When her friend said I'm in for a treat last time, I just smiled and said right, then changed the topic. 

It's like parenting praises on facebook or to others. I ignore them. I use real action , real life as a gage. Not phony commentary.


----------



## T&T

The fact that she's put down the ipad again is a good start! For some, it's not an easy habit to break...

Curious as to what happens moving forward. 

FWIW, my wife and I had a long period in our marriage where things were bleak. What worked for us was me just laying it all on the line. I never used the D word, so to speak, but let her know that enough is enough and WE need to change things in our marriage or _have enough compassion for each other to just let each other go._ 

I recall saying multiple times "Life is too short for us to be miserable and the clock is ticking!" 

It seemed to resonate with her and THEN we began to move back to a healthy marriage. It's the starting point that is the hardest to obtain IMHO. Sure, it took time to get where we are, but without the "aha" moment I don't think it would have ever happened. I had no idea how she would react at the time, but it was a risk that HAD to be taken. No way did I want to live like we were anymore. Not for one damn day! The risk far outweighed living in misery.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> Anon .. Passive?
> 
> She brags about us having a great sex life to her friend the gets tired or sick later that night. This happened for 3+ years. Forgive me if I'm not buying the pyramid scheme investment. It's like my mom telling me she'll be on time to our next gathering, which would break 60 years of trending.
> 
> Ps another night , no ipad. Hi b2 if you're reading this I have a meeting until 545 , so I'll be later than normal tonight.


That would drive me crazy. But you're still passively accepting it. Those were just made up excuses and you knew it. You didn't call her on her fakery. Screw the image she paints of you as a couple and stop participating in perpetuating that image.

She brags to a friend, call her on it! Right then! I detest fake women!!! "My life is perfect, my kids are perfect, my husband is perfect, our sex life is perfect..." Can't stand women like that!

I get the 3 years of her rejections, but you need to get the 3 years of you passively accepting.

Next time she brags, pull her aside with conviction and tell her she better be prepared to put her money where her mouth is or you will refute the fakery she puts forward.


----------



## PieceOfSky

BostonBruins32 said:


> depends on the episode. A few times ive left it be (more recently). Before that I would try to gentle it out of her. I told her I was here for her no matter how she feels. I told her that it helps me feel closer to her when she opens up to me. etc. I would typically press a little. She would eye roll, get angry, and or go quiet and ignore. I'm not going to sit at the end of the couch and talk to myself for 2 hours. Ive tried it. Doesnt work so hot. I did even try to put more pressure on it (way back), stating that she really needs to talk to me because I am very unable to read her mind and I care about how she feels bcause i love her. "nothing, i dont want to talk about anything". The MC did lay into her a little once before she quit MC, saying "your husband is not a mind reader. you really need to tell him how you feel, even if just a brief honest version of it". She got angry with that (was quiet for duration of that visit).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More recently (past x amount of months) if she seemed off kilt I may just casually ask her how shes doing, hows work etc . just to gage if she wanted to talk. She opens about work and her friends etc but nothing overly serious about us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And as I'm typing, maybe she doesnt feel bad or sensitive about the relationship. Maybe nothing really is wrong. Maybe she feels fine about me and us. Maybe I am overthinking everything.




Just speculating...



She indulges in that behavior because she believes you care more about X than you do about having the contented, pleasurable, and passionate life you deserve and are capable of achieving.



Here, X could be some combination of these and other things:



* not "being a quitter"

* not being alone alone

* her not leaving you

* not splitting up your daughter's mommy and daddy and home

* not looking at your FOO issues

* not working on your FOO issues

* evading the fact you do not feel you deserve better from her and life

* not accepting, deep down, that she is separate from you and only connected to you as she wants

* not accepting that her interests in and fears about connecting to you may mean she is not good for your life





So, she will never be uncomfortable enough to find courage to be fully present in your relationship, until you find the courage to face and fully address and defuse X.



It is a standoff between you and your fears. She needs to see you break that standoff, and headed towards the life, including relationships, you deserve -- with determination unfazed by whether it will be with her or without her. THEN, she will either jump on for the ride together, or she won't. You will know what you need to know. Life will be good, no matter what she decides.









....just a thought. (probably applies to me as much as anyone)


----------



## BostonBruins32

I don't think this is way off base. She knows I had split parents and I think she could view me as defensive about breaking up a happy home. Which I VERY much conveyed to her back in oct-Dec.. she could feel this matters more.

i actually really think there is some truth in this, even if she doesnt think so, I definitely can own some of this.


----------



## farsidejunky

BB:

I keep hearing accountability from you. That is great.

When are you going to translate accountability into action?


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> Next time she brags, pull her aside with conviction and tell her she better be prepared to put her money where her mouth is or you will refute the fakery she puts forward.



View attachment 30290


Sorry, long day in the lab...


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

The next time you are out with a group, notice what you like/dislike about their dynamics. 

And then in short, simple strokes sketch your observations for B2. The couple who are bringing out each others best. Those who are doing the opposite. 

Inspire her with your value system. You have good values. 

I believe you are strong enough to get B2 to buy into your value system. 

As for your current situation:

If B2 seems overall a bit less happy in the last few months, it's likely due to your response to the B4 request. 

If that's the case, if she's less happy, that is likely doing two things to you:
1. Pushing your background anxiety level up (chronic)
2. Triggering your memory of her leaving you last year (acute)

The only remedy for that angst is you developing enough faith in yourself that you really believe that with or without B2 you are going to be at least ok and likely happy. 

When you believe in you - deep down - it will be much easier for B2 to simply follow your lead. 

Faith - in yourself - it is the only thing you lack. And when you find it, it's going to amplify everything you are doing. 

I'm guessing you have a fair amount of it in your professional life. But that's a simpler, more well defined world. 

FWIW: 

Out of everybody on this board, my role model for faith, strength and the stability they bring to a marriage - is Dug. 

When I get into 'analyst' mode, M2 will fight me to the death over the color of the paper clips we should buy for our home office. 

When I act like Dug: M2 curls up in my lap purring and murmurs: what can I do for you? 






BostonBruins32 said:


> I don't think this is way off base. She knows I had split parents and I think she could view me as defensive about breaking up a happy home. Which I VERY much conveyed to her back in oct-Dec.. she could feel this matters more.
> 
> i actually really think there is some truth in this, even if she doesnt think so, I definitely can own some of this.


----------



## BostonBruins32

i buy that. very similar too. when i get into analyst mode, B2 shuts it down. it makes things worse. 

As for faith in myself. I 100% believe that I'm a good person and a good father. I even believe I am a good husband.. just not in the court of perception for B2. Which is just one opinion right? Its not a blanket statement that I'm a bad husband. I'm just not a good husband to B2. 

Remember, if she walked out now with space, I'd be much more inclined to let her go. Im not sure I'd fight back, as I did last year. 

Also, just to be transparent. I do not believe in another marriage. I am fine with who I am, but I will never expect someone to love me as a husband again. That ship has sailed. I'm not sure if this is related to faith in myself, but rather I dont believe in love coming from someone not sharing my last name (or similar). I expect my mom and brother and cousins and aunts to love me. We share blood. I will never expect a partner to love me again. I dont think its realistic. I think B2 and I can be close enough to make a happy life with B3, but I do not believe any unconditional love coming from a partner. 

so MEM, i have faith in myself. I just have zero faith in someone else loving me as a spouse. And to be honest, this is lightyears better than 12, 18, 24 months ago.. Theres a small comfort in knowing that your not a ****ty husband or bad father. a comfort that doesnt come from my mom, who says im the best at everything. a comfort that deflects what B2 thinks. im not all that bad. I'm well aware of that.


----------



## john117

BB, you don't have to be 100%. Success in anything is not predicated at 100% only unless you're Houdini and we all know how that worked out for good ole' Harry.

I share your sentiment about blood relatives - few people here do, incidentally - so your attitude re: expectations is reasonable. You want a good enough marriage. Aka a compromise. That's great. As long as B2 understands she's not getting Prince BB, MBA at 100% BHP. Part of the issue is that she may be expecting you at 100% and even believing she's at 100% herself - like old bowling lanes, it's self scoring. 

It's good you have the confidence. A lot of people don't handle rejection very well. I should thank J2 for conditioning me well rejections wise - no hard feelings when trade or consumer publications or user reports don't always praise my work


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> BB, you don't have to be 100%. Success in anything is not predicated at 100% only unless you're Houdini and we all know how that worked out for good ole' Harry.
> 
> I share your sentiment about blood relatives - few people here do, incidentally - so your attitude re: expectations is reasonable. You want a good enough marriage. Aka a compromise. That's great. As long as B2 understands she's not getting Prince BB, MBA at 100% BHP. Part of the issue is that she may be expecting you at 100% and even believing she's at 100% herself - like old bowling lanes, it's self scoring.
> 
> It's good you have the confidence. A lot of people don't handle rejection very well. I should thank J2 for conditioning me well rejections wise - no hard feelings when trade or consumer publications or user reports don't always praise my work


perception right.


B3 told me tonight that I'm the best hugger she knows. Affirmation, signed sealed and delivered.


----------



## john117

My daughters told me that when I introduced them to United Colors of Benetton


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

What you showed in the post below - is a combination of self awareness and honesty that most people never get to. 

It's possible that you aren't a good fit for B2, and she for you. 

But the faith bit works like this: 
When you really and truly believe (in your heart, your spine and your balls) that you are a good/great partner, than you will be confident that either B2 will get there with you, or her successor will. Right now, you believe in your head that you are a great husband. But not the other places. 

A good marriage tests us. It just does. 

Your test is to propagate the faith that's in your head, throughout your body. You'll know you've succeeded when the idea of B2 leaving doesn't upset you much at all. 

Not because you don't love her. But because you know her successor WILL love you. 

Until you reach that point, you won't be able to do what you need to do. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> i buy that. very similar too. when i get into analyst mode, B2 shuts it down. it makes things worse.
> 
> As for faith in myself. I 100% believe that I'm a good person and a good father. I even believe I am a good husband.. just not in the court of perception for B2. Which is just one opinion right? Its not a blanket statement that I'm a bad husband. I'm just not a good husband to B2.
> 
> Remember, if she walked out now with space, I'd be much more inclined to let her go. Im not sure I'd fight back, as I did last year.
> 
> Also, just to be transparent. I do not believe in another marriage. I am fine with who I am, but I will never expect someone to love me as a husband again. That ship has sailed. I'm not sure if this is related to faith in myself, but rather I dont believe in love coming from someone not sharing my last name (or similar). I expect my mom and brother and cousins and aunts to love me. We share blood. I will never expect a partner to love me again. I dont think its realistic. I think B2 and I can be close enough to make a happy life with B3, but I do not believe any unconditional love coming from a partner.
> 
> so MEM, i have faith in myself. I just have zero faith in someone else loving me as a spouse. And to be honest, this is lightyears better than 12, 18, 24 months ago.. Theres a small comfort in knowing that your not a ****ty husband or bad father. a comfort that doesnt come from my mom, who says im the best at everything. a comfort that deflects what B2 thinks. im not all that bad. I'm well aware of that.


----------



## Anon Pink

BostonBruins32 said:


> i buy that. very similar too. when i get into analyst mode, B2 shuts it down. it makes things worse.
> 
> As for faith in myself. I 100% believe that I'm a good person and a good father. I even believe I am a good husband.. just not in the court of perception for B2. Which is just one opinion right? Its not a blanket statement that I'm a bad husband. I'm just not a good husband to B2.
> 
> Remember, if she walked out now with space, I'd be much more inclined to let her go. Im not sure I'd fight back, as I did last year.
> 
> Also, just to be transparent. I do not believe in another marriage. I am fine with who I am, but I will never expect someone to love me as a husband again. That ship has sailed. I'm not sure if this is related to faith in myself, but rather I dont believe in love coming from someone not sharing my last name (or similar). I expect my mom and brother and cousins and aunts to love me. We share blood. I will never expect a partner to love me again. I dont think its realistic. I think B2 and I can be close enough to make a happy life with B3, but I do not believe any unconditional love coming from a partner.
> 
> so MEM, i have faith in myself. I just have zero faith in someone else loving me as a spouse. And to be honest, this is lightyears better than 12, 18, 24 months ago.. Theres a small comfort in knowing that your not a ****ty husband or bad father. a comfort that doesnt come from my mom, who says im the best at everything. a comfort that deflects what B2 thinks. im not all that bad. I'm well aware of that.



Oh Boston, this breaks my heart.

I really don't know what to say and I hate not knowing what to say to help someone feel better. You're at a low point with your wife. You've listened to what she's told you, when she's told you and you've taken her words to heart and you've undergone a change. That is worth a LOT my friend, A LOT!


----------



## PieceOfSky

Anon Pink said:


> Oh Boston, this breaks my heart.
> 
> I really don't know what to say and I hate not knowing what to say to help someone feel better. You're at a low point with your wife. You've listened to what she's told you, when she's told you and you've taken her words to heart and you've undergone a change. That is worth a LOT my friend, A LOT!



Boston,

I can see why you feel that way about yourself and about relationships and love. But, from what I can tell, you are holding on to a very wrong and painful belief about yourself, and it's going to take some work to pry it out of your hands. It's had survival value.

You had mentioned several days ago that it hurt, and I have been wanting to reply to that along with other things in your posts from around that time.

It's a bit presumptuous I suppose, but I first just wanted to say that I get it. Been there. At times, I still am there.

It would not surprise me that part of the reason what you had said then resonated so much with me is because of the similarities in our backgrounds (FOO). I'm not familiar enough with the earlier parts of your thread to say for sure, but I get the feeling your wife and mine have had similar behaviors towards their spouses and marriage at times, and I feel pretty strongly it's fair to category that as "mistreatment" and "evasive neglect", at best. 

In my wife's case, I am quite convinced she has been verbally abusive towards me and the kids for years; yet at the same time, I feel awkward and not entitled to say that. But, reading some of the books I have mentioned really opened my eyes. I have no idea if that has been happening to you. But, it can happen to some degree to anyone by anyone, and the effects wear deeply over time.

I'm not "cured". I still have my days. But things are looking up for me. I see progress, and I can see the path that I took. I don't know what is ahead, but, I am feel determined and hopeful to get through it to the life I deserve, with or without her. I am free to choose.

As far as I can tell, you are on a similar path. I could be misreading. I'm far from omniscient. But, if you are on a similar path, or have been through similar places, I just wanted to say I have seen reason to hope.

I'll add, facing some things has been difficult but cathartic (I'm going to have to look that word up; I hope I used it right). A few times, I've gone through periods a week or two at a time where occasionally tears would flow, hot quiet tears. Can't remember that happening but once as an adult.

Don't underestimate how common it is for someone with your sort of FOO background to have the feelings you do, regarding your wife and your relationship. And, in case you haven't considered it before, lots of people have walked in very similar shoes to yours. I don't hear much talk about this sort of path around here, but like other paths involving human behavior, some are well worn, and there are those who know their way around. There are reason to hope and expect that solving what ever might need to be solved inside you is within your reach, if you know where to look and take the right actions.


----------



## GettingIt_2

BostonBruins32 said:


> Also, just to be transparent. I do not believe in another marriage. I am fine with who I am, but I will never expect someone to love me as a husband again. That ship has sailed. I'm not sure if this is related to faith in myself, but rather I dont believe in love coming from someone not sharing my last name (or similar). I expect my mom and brother and cousins and aunts to love me. We share blood. I will never expect a partner to love me again. I dont think its realistic. I think B2 and I can be close enough to make a happy life with B3, but I do not believe any unconditional love coming from a partner.
> 
> so MEM, i have faith in myself. I just have zero faith in someone else loving me as a spouse. And to be honest, this is lightyears better than 12, 18, 24 months ago.. Theres a small comfort in knowing that your not a ****ty husband or bad father. a comfort that doesnt come from my mom, who says im the best at everything. a comfort that deflects what B2 thinks. im not all that bad. I'm well aware of that.


Don't do this to yourself, Boston. Keep the door open.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Oh Boston, this breaks my heart.
> 
> I really don't know what to say and I hate not knowing what to say to help someone feel better. You're at a low point with your wife. You've listened to what she's told you, when she's told you and you've taken her words to heart and you've undergone a change. That is worth a LOT my friend, A LOT!


Oh i didnt mean it to sound like a pity party. Sorry for that. 

I sincerely dont expect it from B2 or a successor. This is very different from not feeling like "im worth it" or something similar. I'm totally a good guy/husband/father/brother/son/friend. No doubt. But expecting love from a spouse is unrelated to this. 

Just like I don't expect to grow to 6'6 by the time I'm 40 yrs old, just like I don't expect to win $5,000,000 on a $1 scratch ticket. Its not heart breaking at all, its just reality. It would make me feel bad if something was possible, but never achieved. Meaning there is a chance I could run an ultra marathon, so if I wanted to, but could never complete it, that would be frustrating. 

The disconnect is that I dont have faith in it, but yet want it to work. ESPECIALLY because of B3.


----------



## farsidejunky

All those justifications don't make it better, BB. 

They make it even more tragic.

ETA: In rereading this post, it sounds a little cold. It was really intended to be sympathetic. If you don't feel you deserve great things from life, how can you drive yourself to seek them out?


----------



## Anon Pink

That's the differnce between us then Boston.

I fully expected my husband to find a way to love me so that I felt love. Fully and completely expected it. Demanded it even. And when it seemed I had done all I could to make it happen and it still wasn't happening, it was time to leave. 

Marriage isn't like Christmas morning where you have some hopes about what you might get but get your hopes firmly rooted in reality.

Marriage is selfish. We each bring to the table needs and abilities. Needs are mostly fixed but abilities are not fixed at all. We can learn to love better, but we can't learn to need less.


----------



## BostonBruins32

farsidejunky said:


> All those justifications don't make it better, BB.
> 
> They make it even more tragic.
> 
> ETA: In rereading this post, it sounds a little cold. It was really intended to be sympathetic. If you don't feel you deserve great things from life, how can you drive yourself to seek them out?


Nope. I do deserve great things in life. A spouse that loves me is not on my list of great things to expect. 

I expect a great career. I expect to travel. I expect to be the father B3 needs. Those are great things. Happiness and love from a spouse is not something i deserve or dont deserve.


----------



## farsidejunky

What I'm trying to figure out is what came first: the chicken or the egg?

In other words, did you think you deserved a great spouse until your awakening over the last 12 months? Or have you never thought that you deserved a great spouse and therefore this became a self-fulfilling prophecy?


----------



## BostonBruins32

farsidejunky said:


> What I'm trying to figure out is what came first: the chicken or the egg?
> 
> In other words, did you think you deserved a great spouse until your awakening over the last 12 months? Or have you never thought that you deserved a great spouse and therefore this became a self-fulfilling prophecy?


i think awakening. Realizing that you dont need anyone to make you happy or feel loved. That its on you. thats sort of my expectation now.


----------



## john117

Boston, that's the MBA in you talking. In this case EMV plainly says that additional marital investment from you is not worth the effort.

In layman's terms, 95% effort for 5% gain.


----------



## Trickster

farsidejunky said:


> What I'm trying to figure out is what came first: the chicken or the egg?
> 
> In other words, did you think you deserved a great spouse until your awakening over the last 12 months? Or have you never thought that you deserved a great spouse and therefore this became a self-fulfilling prophecy?


When callers ask Dave Ramsey how he feels, he always replies..." Better than I deserve ".

Does that mean that he feels that he doesn't deserve his success in life? 

I don't think so. I believe that Dave Ramsey in living a dream. He is doing better than he ever thought possible. He seems grateful for all that he has. Some of it is luck. Some is hard work. Some of it is being able to see opportunities and take advantage of them. Maybe he is just happy with what he has...If he wanted a full head of hair... It most probably wouldn't get that and would be miserable if he allowed himself to let that consume him.

Maybe BB, myself, and many of the men on TAM are just like that in our marriage. We focus on the good as much as possible...We try to improve all that we can can, to make sure every stone gets turned over. Eventually, we will find that magic stone and grow to love our self, our life, and our marriage.



To make life better, we put a portion of our needs on the back burner until we are ready... Sometimes, we just have to stew in our own emotions...We can't change some things... We accept it...


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> That's the differnce between us then Boston.
> 
> I fully expected my husband to find a way to love me so that I felt love. Fully and completely expected it. Demanded it even. And when it seemed I had done all I could to make it happen and it still wasn't happening, it was time to leave.
> .



You expect all that because you expect Mr. Anon to meet your emotional needs. Can we state for sure this is the case here for BB? 

That's what this is all about. Unfulfilled emotional needs versus iPads and software used to fulfill such needs. 

If B2 can project her life into this online persona of hers, how do you shift the paradigm from online life to real life?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



Trickster said:


> When callers ask Dave Ramsey how he feels, he always replies..." Better than I deserve ".
> 
> Does that mean that he feels that he doesn't deserve his success in life?
> 
> I don't think so. I believe that Dave Ramsey in living a dream. He is doing better than he ever thought possible. He seems grateful for all that he has. Some of it is luck. Some is hard work. Some of it is being able to see opportunities and take advantage of them. Maybe he is just happy with what he has...If he wanted a full head of hair... It most probably wouldn't get that and would be miserable if he allowed himself to let that consume him.
> 
> Maybe BB, myself, and many of the men on TAM are just like that in our marriage. We focus on the good as much as possible...We try to improve all that we can can, to make sure every stone gets turned over. Eventually, we will find that magic stone and grow to love our self, our life, and our marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> To make life better, we put a portion of our needs on the back burner until we are ready... Sometimes, we just have to stew in our own emotions...We can't change some things... We accept it...


Trickster:

I don't disagree with this sentiment in theory. 

However, sometimes this becomes justification for not making your marriage the very best it could be. It also becomes justification for remaining in a marriage that's bad.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Anon Pink said:


> That's the differnce between us then Boston.
> 
> I fully expected my husband to find a way to love me so that I felt love. Fully and completely expected it. Demanded it even. And when it seemed I had done all I could to make it happen and it still wasn't happening, it was time to leave.
> 
> Marriage isn't like Christmas morning where you have some hopes about what you might get but get your hopes firmly rooted in reality.
> 
> Marriage is selfish. We each bring to the table needs and abilities. Needs are mostly fixed but abilities are not fixed at all. We can learn to love better, but we can't learn to need less.




Once a week I tell my therapist I am struggling to manage two competing interests. 



One is the apparently useful policy I have of trying to cope: by not thinking about what I had wanted and expected for myself way back when; by adopting a mindset that she is -- as she sometimes asks for and other times denies -- just a roommate and coparent, not a lover; by not letting myself notice or dwell on the compatible beautiful (to me) people I see; by avoiding my own pity parties brought on by sightings of happy loving couples and thoughts like "that is not for me; avoiding awareness that my memory of gazing into eyes that gaze back lovingly is faded as has frankly my memory of warm and heartfelt non-self-demeaning physical coupling; etc.



The other is letting it occupy my thoughts enough to translate into discontent and pain, so that I feel motivated to take the damn action I need to take, to have what I truly desire.





Coping by pretending I need less unfortunately leads to being stuck having less.



That sucks, because like I think you are saying, we need what we need.


----------



## Trickster

farsidejunky said:


> Trickster:
> 
> I don't disagree with this sentiment in theory.
> 
> However, sometimes this becomes justification for not making your marriage the very best it could be. It also becomes justification for remaining in a marriage that's bad.


Maybe BB needs a better reason to justify divorce. Lack of affection/sex ...or (emotional connection) isn't enough for him...yet! Not even that lack of b2 envolvment with b3... We have to pick our battles wisely...At the same time, a marriage should never be a battle. 


At what point do we accept defeat? Bostons main focus is B3. Remaining in a less than perfect environment, for now, is better than the alternative...


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> You expect all that because you expect Mr. Anon to meet your emotional needs. Can we state for sure this is the case here for BB?


Of course I do, as should any spouse expect the other to meet emotional needs. Why else would two people get married? Why else would two people stay monogamous? Why else would they STAY married? Nothing better to do? There is a LOT better to do than to stick around in an emotional vacuum that makes you feel unloved and unlovable! A LOT!



> That's what this is all about. Unfulfilled emotional needs versus iPads and software used to fulfill such needs.
> 
> If B2 can project her life into this online persona of hers, how do you shift the paradigm from online life to real life?



Boston has a real need to feel loved, it's not being met. Why not? That's what this thread is about. Why isn't she even trying to meet his needs? Is he communicating them? Has he even owned them yet?

Why should B2 shift her focus if she thinks everything is fine and dandy with her H. If he hasn't owned his need to feel loved how on earth can he expect anyone to meet that need? A happy surprise? Not likely.


----------



## Anon Pink

PieceOfSky said:


> Once a week I tell my therapist I am struggling to manage two competing interests.
> 
> 
> 
> One is the apparently useful policy I have of trying to cope: by not thinking about what I had wanted and expected for myself way back when; by adopting a mindset that she is -- as she sometimes asks for and other times denies -- just a roommate and coparent, not a lover; by not letting myself notice or dwell on the compatible beautiful (to me) people I see; by avoiding my own pity parties brought on by sightings of happy loving couples and thoughts like "that is not for me; avoiding awareness that my memory of gazing into eyes that gaze back lovingly is faded as has frankly my memory of warm and heartfelt non-self-demeaning physical coupling; etc.
> 
> 
> 
> The other is letting it occupy my thoughts enough to translate into discontent and pain, so that I feel motivated to take the damn action I need to take, to have what I truly desire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coping by pretending I need less unfortunately leads to being stuck having less.
> 
> 
> 
> That sucks, because like I think you are saying, we need what we need.




Do not go gently into that long night.

Pain is our bodies message telling us to do something. Listen to it.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Of course I do, as should any spouse expect the other to meet emotional needs. Why else would two people get married? Why else would two people stay monogamous? Why else would they STAY married? Nothing better to do? There is a LOT better to do than to stick around in an emotional vacuum that makes you feel unloved and unlovable! A LOT!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boston has a real need to feel loved, it's not being met. Why not? That's what this thread is about. Why isn't she even trying to meet his needs? Is he communicating them? Has he even owned them yet? *Telling her exactly how i feel and what my needs were, is exactly how i communicated them. *
> 
> Why should B2 shift her focus if she thinks everything is fine and dandy with her H. If he hasn't owned his need to feel loved how on earth can he expect anyone to meet that need? A happy surprise? Not likely.


see whats funny is that things arent really hot or bad at the house right now. Things are just cool. If I step back a bit, this is better than last year or prior years. Way less fighting now. 

Being completely honest, I get dragged down by the past and the when is the next time she'll leave thing. I'm almost planning for it type deal. I want details around what happened, and not knowing just drives me nuts. I get stuck on repeat thinking about it. Could be that I'm forgetting to live in the now and recognize progress. The progress does exist, its just a bit one sided, so it feels frustrating.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Boston, that's the MBA in you talking. In this case EMV plainly says that additional marital investment from you is not worth the effort.
> 
> In layman's terms, 95% effort for 5% gain.


Could be. My brain doesnt do a great job shutting down from how business is conducted.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> Of course I do, as should any spouse expect the other to meet emotional needs. Why else would two people get married? Why else would two people stay monogamous? Why else would they STAY married? Nothing better to do? There is a LOT better to do than to stick around in an emotional vacuum that makes you feel unloved and unlovable! A LOT!



The scientific term is "meal ticket".

I know it's sexist but as money and lifestyle become more of an issue in marriage something has to give. 

There's a reason I keep hearing ads on the radio regarding lawyers that represent men in divorce - with the primary advertised objective being to not be wiped out financially.


----------



## Anon Pink

john, I wonder if B2 is taking the same path as you? Money and lifestyle being her top need, she can live with Boston because he meets that need. Just like, you can life with J2 because she meets your need to not have your lifestyle affected?


----------



## john117

You must have me confused with someone else 

My decision to stay for the short term is not about my material preferences; on the other hand, her decision to stay is quite a bit influenced by her material preferences.

There's a big difference between funding material aspirations and funding familial accomplishments.

In fact - material aspirations are by far our biggest difference.


----------



## MEM2020

You have a very positive value system John. 

And your posts have always been very consistent with your values. 





john117 said:


> You must have me confused with someone else
> 
> My decision to stay for the short term is not about my material preferences; on the other hand, her decision to stay is quite a bit influenced by her material preferences.
> 
> There's a big difference between funding material aspirations and funding familial accomplishments.
> 
> In fact - material aspirations are by far our biggest difference.


----------



## PieceOfSky

john117 said:


> You must have me confused with someone else
> 
> My decision to stay for the short term is not about my material preferences; on the other hand, her decision to stay is quite a bit influenced by her material preferences.
> 
> There's a big difference between funding material aspirations and funding familial accomplishments.
> 
> In fact - material aspirations are by far our biggest difference.


None of my business. But it's not obvious from here how funding of familial accomplishments would be hindered by you leaving your wife. Would she pull the plug on funding your daughters' higher education if your left? Would that extra rent/mortgage drain your then-ex-wife's funds as well as yours that you'd have no choice to decrease your funding for their education? You don't sound like you are struggling to stay solvent.

Been meaning to ask. Also, have you talked to a good financial planner and lawyer about that 401K you seem to be worried about so that you are sure delaying your departure will be that fruitful?

Consider those questions as all rhetorical if you prefer.


----------



## john117

Even better, I've talked to two lawyers - one vanilla flavored and one "they are all evil" flavored and in both cases the best cutoff point is once the younger one is heading to (hopefully) med school in 2.5 yrs... 

So I'll be batting a marital 0.76 with 34 years together and 8 bad. Not bad.


----------



## BostonBruins32

John you are the post season david Ortiz of marriage . 

Was showing b3 some words tonight. We went back and forth challenging one another with reading. She read 4 word sentences. I honestly can't believe her. Amazing. She was beaming proud after every read. 

B2 comes in and says let's stop for tonight, and shuts notebook on us. B3 whines. B2 says "My parents forced reading on me" . Now b3 and I practice nightly and most of the time b3 tells me she's done reading, so I finish the story. Sometimes we try ten words, sometimes none. 

Thoughts here? This is the stuff I scratch my head at. B2 left to head to the gym and b3 and I moved on to making thanksgiving day decorations. Hand turkeys.


----------



## MEM2020

Ask B2 why she thinks you are forcing B3 to read. 

BTW: we read books to and then 'with' our children every night. They love to read and it helped them a great deal in school. 



BostonBruins32 said:


> John you are the post season david Ortiz of marriage .
> 
> Was showing b3 some words tonight. We went back and forth challenging one another with reading. She read 4 word sentences. I honestly can't believe her. Amazing. She was beaming proud after every read.
> 
> B2 comes in and says let's stop for tonight, and shuts notebook on us. B3 whines. B2 says "My parents forced reading on me" . Now b3 and I practice nightly and most of the time b3 tells me she's done reading, so I finish the story. Sometimes we try ten words, sometimes none.
> 
> Thoughts here? This is the stuff I scratch my head at. B2 left to head to the gym and b3 and I moved on to making thanksgiving day decorations. Hand turkeys.


----------



## BostonBruins32

I read 4 books per day since her birth. 

Sometimes more. 4 is minimum. She jumps On my lap everytime 

I asked b2 if she thought I was forcing it. She said no, but just figured it was a good stopping place. Something must have made her feel bad ( Hint: she wasn't involved in an earth shattering moment, b3 learning to read)


----------



## jld

"I'm sorry to hear your parents forced reading on you, honey. I bet you felt pressured and disrespected."


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> "I'm sorry to hear your parents forced reading on you, honey. I bet you felt pressured and disrespected."


thats honestly better than my "i understand. I dont want her to feel like she has to learn right now"

I didnt know what else to say, but thanks. i should have recognized it was more about B2 than B3.


----------



## jld

If there is pain inside that she triggered on, saying something compassionate will provide a balm.

I want her to think of you as a person to go to for comfort and understanding. That will build her trust in you.


----------



## BostonBruins32

could this be why she lays into me on parenting?


----------



## Anon Pink

Boston, a move like that would have sent me nuclear! It's pure sabotage because SHE wasn't involved in the happy moment. Nuclear!

JLD is much better at these moments than I am. But I don't see her move as having been triggered by anything other than you're having too much of an impact and leaving me out of it. That's the pain she feels, but it's easier to blame you.

How would you have handled that in the past?


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> You have a very positive value system John.
> 
> 
> 
> And your posts have always been very consistent with your values.



Alcohol does that to people


----------



## john117

jld said:


> "I'm sorry to hear your parents forced reading on you, honey. I bet you felt pressured and disrespected."



My kids know I use the following grading scale:

View attachment 30306


----------



## BostonBruins32

Anon Pink said:


> Boston, a move like that would have sent me nuclear! It's pure sabotage because SHE wasn't involved in the happy moment. Nuclear!
> 
> JLD is much better at these moments than I am. But I don't see her move as having been triggered by anything other than you're having too much of an impact and leaving me out of it. That's the pain she feels, but it's easier to blame you.
> 
> How would you have handled that in the past?


more defensive in the past. now much more calm. Again, expectations. She how brow beat me so bad on parenting that I don't take her commentary serious. I know when I'm doing good as a dad and when I'm not. Her jumping on this means little to me at this point. Just like if she sees something she likes and posts it on facebook. I just think its an interesting study.


----------



## jld

@ John:


----------



## MEM2020

Pure jealousy.

That's just weakness. Easy to flow around that. 

M2 can be very jealous. It's pure insecurity. 

I used to chastise her for it. Yelling at an insecure person - you can guess how well that worked. 

It's not an easy thing to address because the jealous person isn't always conscious of their motives. And when they are, they tend to be ashamed. 

I think it's healthy to ask her: Did you feel left out when I was reading to B3? 

It's a way of gauging the degree to which B2 is willing to confirm how she feels when you point it out. And it shows that you KNOW her - which is good. 

If she acknowledges that, then invite her to join in next time. 

And I can also say that I doubt it will change her future behavior much. 





BostonBruins32 said:


> I read 4 books per day since her birth.
> 
> Sometimes more. 4 is minimum. She jumps On my lap everytime
> 
> I asked b2 if she thought I was forcing it. She said no, but just figured it was a good stopping place. Something must have made her feel bad ( Hint: she wasn't involved in an earth shattering moment, b3 learning to read)


----------



## jld

I think it could change it, MEM. And that is a very compassionate approach. 

BB, when I had my first child, our daughter, I was shocked by how much a baby took out of me. Recovering from a hemorrhage, around the clock nursing, holding her because she cried if I didn't, never feeling like I could get anything done, etc.

After about a month, I was in despair. I was totally sleep-deprived. I was considering stopping nursing.

Dug was adamant that I continue. He was very direct about all the arguments in favor of breastfeeding.

I started to cry. I told him, "I thought _I_ was your special girl. Now it feels like you only care about the baby."

Dug got tears in his eyes, BB. He said, "You will _always_ be my special girl." 

And then he started getting up at night to walk dd around for a few hours so I could get some sleep. It saved my breastfeeding, which was so important to Dug. And his reassurance saved me from feeling resentful.

Reach out in compassion, BB. . She is not a bad girl. Not inside.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> I think it could change it, MEM. And that is a very compassionate approach.
> 
> BB, when I had my first child, our daughter, I was shocked by how much a baby took out of me. Recovering from a hemorrhage, around the clock nursing, holding her because she cried if I didn't, never feeling like I could get anything done, etc.
> 
> After about a month, I was in despair. I was totally sleep-deprived. I was considering stopping nursing.
> 
> Dug was adamant that I continue. He was very direct about all the arguments in favor of breastfeeding.
> 
> I started to cry. I told him, "I thought _I_ was your special girl. Now it feels like you only care about the baby."
> 
> Dug got tears in his eyes, BB. He said, "You will _always_ be my special girl."
> 
> And then he started getting up at night to walk dd around for a few hours so I could get some sleep. It saved my breastfeeding, which was so important to Dug. And his reassurance saved me from feeling resentful.
> 
> Reach out in compassion, BB. . She is not a bad girl. Not inside.


i remember those convos. I told her how proud I was of her for trying to nurse (especially during times of no sleep or seemingly hopelessness.). I told her whether she nurses B3 or we go with similac, I'm all in. 

I used to get up all night with her to nurse B3. B2 wasnt working, and I had to leave for work at 630am. often times on 1 hour or less of sleep. First full year. Nurse. Dont nurse. I was all in and I told her this very clearly. I didnt just tell her this, I woke up all night with her. If she had to be tired, i would be tired. I knew i was doing good when the admin assistant at work told me, do you own an iron? I hadnt ironed my shirts in 3 months. 

Few years later, I chatted with some coworkers and guy friends. They told me they did not do the same. "hey shes nursing not me, so why should i get up". 70% said this. 

JLD, part of me wants to say "cry me a river". I was here. I've been here. I'm not the norm. You guys talk about confidence in myself or what I deserve. I'm not average. I'm well above average. 

I did not feel this way until I got punched in the gut last october and until I heard some nasty harsh feedback from MC and from you guys.


----------



## BostonBruins32

and this is why i feel betrayed about last october. cheating? not cheating? why dont you lvoe me like other women love thier husbands?

all this hurt. I've spent 12 months numbing this and moving on from it. Its real hard. But the desire to move on from it and not expect it is very real.


----------



## jld

I'm sorry, BB. I can only imagine how hurt you must feel.

One hour of sleep? Amazing. You da _man._


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> I'm sorry, BB. I can only imagine how hurt you must feel.
> 
> One hour of sleep? Amazing. You da _man._


not da man. business as usual. if you sign up for a kid, you no longer get 8 straight hours. 

I think we can all agree on this.


----------



## jld

Not that this really matters, but . . . We also started putting the baby in our bed. That was _huge_ in my getting more sleep.


----------



## BostonBruins32

jld said:


> Not that this really matters, but . . . We also started putting the baby in our bed. That was _huge_ in my getting more sleep.


cosleeper. then crib. then her own bed.

she slept with us a few times..id usually move to the couch in fear of rolling over and killing her. But i'd wake up for every feeding.


----------



## jld

Well, for us, the point of putting her in our bed was so I could get her latched on, and then just fall back to sleep.

And just to give you hope, if there is a little B4 in the next few years . . . our first was by far our hardest baby. The boys were all great sleepers who hardly nursed at night, in comparison.


----------



## jld

As long as we are on the subject of parenting . . . Our daughter did not read until she was almost 8, BB. She did not do much schoolwork until 11 1/2. She was busy playing with her little brothers, taking ballet and art lessons, doing crafts, cooking, and just generally enjoying little kid life.

She is 19 now, in her sophomore year of college, likely heading for another 4.0 in her chem eng. studies this semester. She is presenting research this weekend at a science conference, having been selected over some juniors and seniors. She is thinking about doing an MD/PhD program in a few years.

Just something to consider.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> And just to give you hope, if there is a little B4 in the next few years . . . our first was by far our hardest baby. The boys were all great sleepers who hardly nursed at night, in comparison.



Our first took five years to sleep thru the night  the second six weeks. 

The second one slept in our bed but there's something to be said about having 5 bedrooms


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Our first took five years to sleep thru the night  the second six weeks.
> 
> The second one slept in our bed but there's something to be said about having 5 bedrooms


Five bedrooms? I'm jealous!


----------



## Personal

jld said:


> As long as we are on the subject of parenting . . . Our daughter did not read until she was almost 8, BB. She did not do much schoolwork until 11 1/2. She was busy playing with her little brothers, taking ballet and art lessons, doing crafts, cooking, and just generally enjoying little kid life.
> 
> She is 19 now, in her sophomore year of college, likely heading for another 4.0 in her chem eng. studies this semester. She is presenting research this weekend at a science conference, having been selected over some juniors and seniors. She is thinking about doing an MD/PhD program in a few years.
> 
> Just something to consider.


So you've got one of those kids! I too did not read till I was almost 8, yet within a few months of that I was comfortable reading anything inclusive of Shakespeare. Although I barely did any school work period (which meant repeated IQ tests and counselling while at school). That said, although I would never do homework and or assessment work I would often easily top exams without bothering to study.

Good for your daughter on her achievements, being one of those I'm sure she was quite the challenge bringing up.


----------



## jld

No, very easy. An example for her mother, actually. . Her father's daughter.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Five bedrooms? I'm jealous!



Two kitchens, three living rooms, two dining rooms, two offices, and six bathrooms too 

For all the good it has done us


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Two kitchens, three living rooms, two dining rooms, two offices, and six bathrooms too
> 
> For all the good it has done us


I'm still jealous!


----------



## MEM2020

John,

The primary output of your home, is your children. Home loosely includes general environs/schools etc.





john117 said:


> Two kitchens, three living rooms, two dining rooms, two offices, and six bathrooms too
> 
> For all the good it has done us


----------



## john117

Not in my way of thinking... A home and material things in general are liabilities. Families generally are assets. 

There is some correlation between the two - a nicer home tends to result in better educated kids for example - but one is not a subset of the other.

My wife sees it a lot more your way but I don't.


----------



## In Absentia

I've done all the nursing stuff myself... in the middle of the night, many many times... then, when they were a little older, I slept next to their cot, on the floor, if they would wake up in the middle of the night, so they wouldn't have to get into bed with us, disturbing mum's sleep... it was hard, but I look back at those times with some kind of nostalgia... maybe I'm mad!


----------



## Anon Pink

In Absentia said:


> I've done all the nursing stuff myself... in the middle of the night, many many times... then, when they were a little older, I slept next to their cot, on the floor, if they would wake up in the middle of the night, so they wouldn't have to get into bed with us, disturbing mum's sleep... it was hard, but I look back at those times with some kind of nostalgia... maybe I'm mad!


Wow! I wouldn't say mad...more like GEM!


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

You are above average. Quite so.

And yet - all your anxiety - comes from a lack of faith that everything will turn out well no matter what B2 does. 






BostonBruins32 said:


> i remember those convos. I told her how proud I was of her for trying to nurse (especially during times of no sleep or seemingly hopelessness.). I told her whether she nurses B3 or we go with similac, I'm all in.
> 
> I used to get up all night with her to nurse B3. B2 wasnt working, and I had to leave for work at 630am. often times on 1 hour or less of sleep. First full year. Nurse. Dont nurse. I was all in and I told her this very clearly. I didnt just tell her this, I woke up all night with her. If she had to be tired, i would be tired. I knew i was doing good when the admin assistant at work told me, do you own an iron? I hadnt ironed my shirts in 3 months.
> 
> Few years later, I chatted with some coworkers and guy friends. They told me they did not do the same. "hey shes nursing not me, so why should i get up". 70% said this.
> 
> JLD, part of me wants to say "cry me a river". I was here. I've been here. I'm not the norm. You guys talk about confidence in myself or what I deserve. I'm not average. I'm well above average.
> 
> I did not feel this way until I got punched in the gut last october and until I heard some nasty harsh feedback from MC and from you guys.


----------



## PieceOfSky

In Absentia, BB,



Your baby years sound eerily similar to mine. As does the current states of your marriages.



I'm guessing that is not a coincidence. How, I am not sure, though a couple of things come to mind.



BB, read as much to your daughter as you and she wants. You wont get an opportunity later. Cherish it without worries.


----------



## In Absentia

PieceOfSky said:


> In Absentia, BB,
> 
> 
> 
> Your baby years sound eerily similar to mine. As does the current states of your marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing that is not a coincidence. How, I am not sure, though a couple of things come to mind.


Being too feminine and not man enough, I would say...


----------



## PieceOfSky

In Absentia said:


> Being too feminine and not man enough, I would say...





I know there is a school of thought around here that views things that way. I am not convinced that is the dynamic in my case, but, then I would be the last to see or own it I suppose.



I love my kids, and would do anything they needed me to. At the time, I loved my wife unconditionally, and believed that the only reason she couldn't cope with new motherhood like everyone else (I assumed) was because she was depressed, before she got pregnant, and post-partum there was a PPD component that emerged as well.



So, I gave her all the strength I had.



In retrospect, she resents me for the uncomplaining help I gave. I also see she has been nothing but reluctantly going along with "our" decision to get married (4.5 year engagement), her choice for this career or SHM or that career, and "our" decision to have kids. It feels like she is Ms. Tentatively-I-Do-but-reserve-the-right-to-withhold-my-enthusiasm-and-blame-you-for-not-fixing-me. It is a reflection on my naivety and co-dependent-like desire to be good enough and strong enough to make it work for her. That's not a feminine vs. masculine thing. It is a being f'd up vs. mentally healthy and strong thing.



Speaking about myself.


----------



## BostonBruins32

In Absentia said:


> Being too feminine and not man enough, I would say...


i actually am not sure i disagree with this. It was something of a double edged sword. If I helped too much or tried to play a heavily involved role, it changed the perception of me as the man of the house. It was needed, but frowned upon. 

Very similar to my friendships. for past say 3-5 years, I would go visit or go out with some of my friends on occassion. Leading up to it, I got cold shoulder and brief responses. During it, I got texts asking when I'll be home and that B3 was misbehaving. I slowed down big time on this. I went from 2 times a month to virtually never. During counseling, this came up. WIth the MC in the room, my wife was commenting, "i want you to do your own thing, have your own life. " etc.. Shes right. But what she neglected to mention was the commentary and treatment along the way. I talked to her about this after. Essentially I told her that all the comments I got and treatment before made the juice not worth the squeeze. 

Same goes for parenting. Had I left her to do more of the common womanly things, she would have given me heat. But maybe she would see me as more masculine? and would be more attracted? who knows? Either way, it doesnt matter. She was a very angry tempermental young mom, and I still believe that B3 would be far worse off if I didnt help as I did. Even if it ends up costing my marriage.


----------



## Anon Pink

You just can't force self awareness on people and from everything you have written about your wife she abhors self awareness. Once we become more self aware we also becomes responsible for responding instead of reacting. Reacting is so much easier.

I feel for you Boston. I don't think your wife and I would get along very well... I have no tolerance for people like that.


----------



## john117

Anon, you're usually very good with words but the above was world class. 

The whole thread in three words, responding vs reacting.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
This intense jealousy of you socializing with friends and/or having too much fun reading with B3 - needs to be addressed. 

With kindness, and care and surgical precision. 

M2 suffers from this. Always has. 

My biggest mistake - in dealing with it - came from failing to start at the beginning. 

The beginning of ALL these steps is a good faith effort to understand WHY. 

It's easy to be judgemental and say: My spouse is controlling and selfish. They aren't able to be happy for me. 

But that's not helpful. 

Here's what's true. That type of clingy, needy behavior is pure weakness/insecurity. Fear -> anger -> cold/hostile behavior 

Early on, not recognizing this for what it was, I echoed it back. Not very compassionate, and counterproductive. 

The thing about weak/needy folk, is they detest having the spotlight shown directly on their weekness. 

I don't say to M2: Why are you jealous of Bill?

I do say: Are you feeling anxious because I'm going out with Bill?

Now typically - M2 will immediately deny any such thing - in the moment. And I'll shrug, smile and say: 'thats good - he's no competition for you'.

Sadly, because B2 is weak, you are more likely to get a deceitful response. Which looks something like this: I'm not anxious, just resentful that you aren't helping me with B3.

My experience with this - and I have a LOT - is to smile and say: I'm confident that you and B3 will have a great time without me. If you really feel overwhelmed, you are welcome to get a sitter to help out.

That PLUS: when you get the manipulative - I need you to come home now! request - you just reply with: I have total confidence in your ability to manage B3.  I'll see you when I get home later tonight. 

--------
Just as a point of reference. M2 doesn't limit this type behavior to friends. If allowed, she would disrupt my familial relationships. I just don't let her. And at some leve she is grateful I don't allow her to be the worst possible version of herself. 

That said: I work hard to avoid emotinally loaded terms: jealous, insecure, controlling.

And I don't get angry at her for being - this way. Because she would rather convert that fear/anxiety into anger. And the shortest path to that result, is for me to get angry/judgemental with her. 






BostonBruins32 said:


> i actually am not sure i disagree with this. It was something of a double edged sword. If I helped too much or tried to play a heavily involved role, it changed the perception of me as the man of the house. It was needed, but frowned upon.
> 
> Very similar to my friendships. for past say 3-5 years, I would go visit or go out with some of my friends on occassion. Leading up to it, I got cold shoulder and brief responses. During it, I got texts asking when I'll be home and that B3 was misbehaving. I slowed down big time on this. I went from 2 times a month to virtually never. During counseling, this came up. WIth the MC in the room, my wife was commenting, "i want you to do your own thing, have your own life. " etc.. Shes right. But what she neglected to mention was the commentary and treatment along the way. I talked to her about this after. Essentially I told her that all the comments I got and treatment before made the juice not worth the squeeze.
> 
> Same goes for parenting. Had I left her to do more of the common womanly things, she would have given me heat. But maybe she would see me as more masculine? and would be more attracted? who knows? Either way, it doesnt matter. She was a very angry tempermental young mom, and I still believe that B3 would be far worse off if I didnt help as I did. Even if it ends up costing my marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

You can't force it. You can encourage it. 





Anon Pink said:


> You just can't force self awareness on people and from everything you have written about your wife she abhors self awareness. Once we become more self aware we also becomes responsible for responding instead of reacting. Reacting is so much easier.
> 
> I feel for you Boston. I don't think your wife and I would get along very well... I have no tolerance for people like that.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> This intense jealousy of you socializing with friends and/or having too much fun reading with B3 - needs to be addressed.
> 
> With kindness, and care and surgical precision.
> 
> M2 suffers from this. Always has.
> 
> My biggest mistake - in dealing with it - came from failing to start at the beginning.
> 
> The beginning of ALL these steps is a good faith effort to understand WHY.
> 
> It's easy to be judgemental and say: My spouse is controlling and selfish. They aren't able to be happy for me.
> 
> But that's not helpful.
> 
> Here's what's true. That type of clingy, needy behavior is pure weakness/insecurity. Fear -> anger -> cold/hostile behavior
> 
> Early on, not recognizing this for what it was, I echoed it back. Not very compassionate, and counterproductive.
> 
> The thing about weak/needy folk, is they detest having the spotlight shown directly on their weekness.
> 
> I don't say to M2: Why are you jealous of Bill?
> 
> I do say: Are you feeling anxious because I'm going out with Bill?
> 
> Now typically - M2 will immediately deny any such thing - in the moment. And I'll shrug, smile and say: 'thats good - he's no competition for you'.
> 
> Sadly, because B2 is weak, you are more likely to get a deceitful response. Which looks something like this: I'm not anxious, just resentful that you aren't helping me with B3.
> 
> My experience with this - and I have a LOT - is to smile and say: I'm confident that you and B3 will have a great time without me. If you really feel overwhelmed, you are welcome to get a sitter to help out.
> 
> That PLUS: when you get the manipulative - I need you to come home now! request - you just reply with: I have total confidence in your ability to manage B3. I'll see you when I get home later tonight.
> 
> --------
> Just as a point of reference. M2 doesn't limit this type behavior to friends. If allowed, she would disrupt my familial relationships. I just don't let her. And at some leve she is grateful I don't allow her to be the worst possible version of herself.
> 
> That said: I work hard to avoid emotinally loaded terms: jealous, insecure, controlling.
> 
> And I don't get angry at her for being - this way. Because she would rather convert that fear/anxiety into anger. And the shortest path to that result, is for me to get angry/judgemental with her.


for a while now, I show empathy when I got the "B3 is acting out etc" text. I wouldnt come home, but I would just show empathy. It typically quiets things.

I've found this true for most things with B2. This is a tool I never used enough of until she left me last year to consider banging someone else. See, she complains quite a bit to me about work. Everyone there is an idiot. Everyone there drives her nuts. Sometimes stuff with her mom or friends. She spouts off or rants a lot. I used to attempt to problem solve. now I just show empathy with no solution offerings (or minimal if its an easy win). When I used to offer a solution, she got mad and "you dont understand". Literally the conversation would end in a fight. 

So if I'm at a bruins game with a friend, I just shwo empathy to that text. I'm not leaving early. But I'm listening to her concern. Thats about the best I can do. 

I like you advice though MEM, i'll have to give that a fair shot next time. 

B2 is still reading this thread I think. Ipad minimal usage and she cuddled with B3 last night before bed. If I get a "honey you look so hot" from her tonight, I'm deleting the thread


----------



## jld

Keep up the genuine empathy and wisely set boundaries, and you may just save your marriage, BB.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

This is a great opportunity to lead by example. I consciously give M2 positive feedback when she:
- tells me of he plan to go do something with a friend
- is about to leave to meet her friend(s)
- has just returned from seeing her friend(s)

And unless I have a genuine concern about M2's well being, I do not contact her while she is out with friends. 




BostonBruins32 said:


> for a while now, I show empathy when I got the "B3 is acting out etc" text. I wouldnt come home, but I would just show empathy. It typically quiets things.
> 
> I've found this true for most things with B2. This is a tool I never used enough of until she left me last year to consider banging someone else. See, she complains quite a bit to me about work. Everyone there is an idiot. Everyone there drives her nuts. Sometimes stuff with her mom or friends. She spouts off or rants a lot. I used to attempt to problem solve. now I just show empathy with no solution offerings (or minimal if its an easy win). When I used to offer a solution, she got mad and "you dont understand". Literally the conversation would end in a fight.
> 
> So if I'm at a bruins game with a friend, I just shwo empathy to that text. I'm not leaving early. But I'm listening to her concern. Thats about the best I can do.
> 
> I like you advice though MEM, i'll have to give that a fair shot next time.
> 
> B2 is still reading this thread I think. Ipad minimal usage and she cuddled with B3 last night before bed. If I get a "honey you look so hot" from her tonight, I'm deleting the thread


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> 
> This is a great opportunity to lead by example. I consciously give M2 positive feedback when she:
> - tells me of he plan to go do something with a friend
> - is about to leave to meet her friend(s)
> - has just returned from seeing her friend(s)
> 
> And unless I have a genuine concern about M2's well being, I do not contact her while she is out with friends.


Yep. me to a T. 

I also avoid 20 questioning her. One last october just after she almost left me for someone else, she went out with a friend. I asked her how it went and how her friend was etc, without concern of cheating, but rather I hadnt seen said friend in a few months etc. B2 got angry like theres no tomorrow "i dont want to have to answer 20 questions". I definately wasnt accuing her or thinking anything bad. A few weeks later, she went shopping all day at some outlets with her friend. She said she'd probably be home around 5, but got home at 9. I did not ask questions on this. During a conversation months later, one of the few times in the past 10 years she hasnt made fun of me for sharing my concerns, I said that I had some real bad feelings about her being gone 4 hours later than projected. I backed this up with the mentioning that if I'm running 30 mins late from work I end up with 2 texts from her asking where I am. She said she understood, and that was it. She also is notorious for not answering her phone or responding with text. Her parents and some of her girlfriends call me when they are trying to reach her. So while 2-5 years ago, I would text her and ask her if shes havign fun or I'd say "i love you, hope you're having a great night", I stopped that. 

My gut says she was truly with her girlfriend, but I cant stamp it with 100%. B2 and her mom, B2 and her girlfriends always end up spending longer than projected when they go out, but this was during a time when I began to lose trust in B2. 

So MEM, yes I give her good feedback. before and after. I no longer ask her anything about said adventure or outing with friend. It feels weird to be in the dark when she's running late or to not be curious when she goes out with her "husband-weatlhier-thanBB" friend who likes to get shi tfaced and stay out till 3am. But I no longer ask. I also no longer give her full details on my whereabouts. B3 and I go on an adventure every weekend morning, while B2 sleeps till 11. I dont go into too much detail to B2 when I get back unless she really presses.

I do charity road races (bike or run) on weekend mornings, and will often utilize a grandparent to watch B3 during the race. All while not telling B2 what I was up to, unless she specifically asks. 

I've worked really hard to create this independent life that the MC and B2 told me to. 

sorry .tangent.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,
This is not a tangent. It is core stuff. 

I used to get angry at M2 for being jealous, controlling, and when she felt thwarted - vindictive towards me. 

But that statement above, it isn't really true is it. I wasn't angry. Not really. In the first two cases I was fearful. And in the latter case, hurt. 

Fearful because the jealous/controlling response was a strong and imminent predictor of some type of controlled aggression on her part. As for that last bit - the vindictiveness. What's that about? That my man is the most basic type of human interpersonal Lego. Reciprocity. I had hurt her, she was determined to return the favor. 

And my confusion was only heightened by the fact that M2 is so very high functioning in so many areas. 

So - instead of accepting her - as is. Instead of being supportive and patient and kind and strong: I engaged in a game of 'whack a mole' trying to get her to suppress a hard wired response pattern. That doesn't work. 

What does work: compassion, acceptance, humor, patience

Just before I walk out the door I typically ask M2 a question with a strong subtext:
- On my way home do you want me to (some act of service) 
- When I get home do you want to (spend quality time) or
- Tomorrow night would you like to (spend quality time)

These all have the same subtext: I love you

But they work better than ILY with M2 in this context. Because in the moment, she's anxious and mildly irritable. The last thing she wants is to have to respond to: ILY
That's why I say the other stuff. 

And if she unkindly rejects my offer - I just shrug, smile, say I'll see you later and I head out. A genuine act of kindness stands alone. It needs no acknowledgment or acceptance. Mostly though, this approach works very well. 






BostonBruins32 said:


> Yep. me to a T.
> 
> I also avoid 20 questioning her. One last october just after she almost left me for someone else, she went out with a friend. I asked her how it went and how her friend was etc, without concern of cheating, but rather I hadnt seen said friend in a few months etc. B2 got angry like theres no tomorrow "i dont want to have to answer 20 questions". I definately wasnt accuing her or thinking anything bad. A few weeks later, she went shopping all day at some outlets with her friend. She said she'd probably be home around 5, but got home at 9. I did not ask questions on this. During a conversation months later, one of the few times in the past 10 years she hasnt made fun of me for sharing my concerns, I said that I had some real bad feelings about her being gone 4 hours later than projected. I backed this up with the mentioning that if I'm running 30 mins late from work I end up with 2 texts from her asking where I am. She said she understood, and that was it. She also is notorious for not answering her phone or responding with text. Her parents and some of her girlfriends call me when they are trying to reach her. So while 2-5 years ago, I would text her and ask her if shes havign fun or I'd say "i love you, hope you're having a great night", I stopped that.
> 
> My gut says she was truly with her girlfriend, but I cant stamp it with 100%. B2 and her mom, B2 and her girlfriends always end up spending longer than projected when they go out, but this was during a time when I began to lose trust in B2.
> 
> So MEM, yes I give her good feedback. before and after. I no longer ask her anything about said adventure or outing with friend. It feels weird to be in the dark when she's running late or to not be curious when she goes out with her "husband-weatlhier-thanBB" friend who likes to get shi tfaced and stay out till 3am. But I no longer ask. I also no longer give her full details on my whereabouts. B3 and I go on an adventure every weekend morning, while B2 sleeps till 11. I dont go into too much detail to B2 when I get back unless she really presses.
> 
> I do charity road races (bike or run) on weekend mornings, and will often utilize a grandparent to watch B3 during the race. All while not telling B2 what I was up to, unless she specifically asks.
> 
> I've worked really hard to create this independent life that the MC and B2 told me to.
> 
> sorry .tangent.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> This is not a tangent. It is core stuff.
> 
> I used to get angry at M2 for being jealous, controlling, and when she felt thwarted - vindictive towards me.
> 
> But that statement above, it isn't really true is it. I wasn't angry. Not really. In the first two cases I was fearful. And in the latter case, hurt.
> 
> Fearful because the jealous/controlling response was a strong and imminent predictor of some type of controlled aggression on her part. As for that last bit - the vindictiveness. What's that about? That my man is the most basic type of human interpersonal Lego. Reciprocity. I had hurt her, she was determined to return the favor.
> 
> And my confusion was only heightened by the fact that M2 is so very high functioning in so many areas.
> 
> So - instead of accepting her - as is. Instead of being supportive and patient and kind and strong: I engaged in a game of 'whack a mole' trying to get her to suppress a hard wired response pattern. That doesn't work.
> 
> What does work: compassion, acceptance, humor, patience
> 
> Just before I walk out the door I typically ask M2 a question with a strong subtext:
> - On my way home do you want me to (some act of service)
> - When I get home do you want to (spend quality time) or
> - Tomorrow night would you like to (spend quality time)
> 
> These all have the same subtext: I love you
> 
> But they work better than ILY with M2 in this context. Because in the moment, she's anxious and mildly irritable. The last thing she wants is to have to respond to: ILY
> That's why I say the other stuff.
> 
> And if she unkindly rejects my offer - I just shrug, smile, say I'll see you later and I head out. A genuine act of kindness stands alone. It needs no acknowledgment or acceptance. Mostly though, this approach works very well.


again. very similar. "I should be home around 10pm after the game. Would you like me to grab some coffee ice cream for later?" Always felt like an easy win win.

I've stopped this. As I said, separate lives together(MC and B2's request). I've also felt really disgruntled about her responses and about her 5% effort vs my level of effort in doing things for someone you love. Therefore I'm not offering up ice cream on the way home and I'm not scheduling cuddle time tomorrow. 


I also note that I get a lot more respect now when I shrug things off and dont bow to her every text/call. Meaning I dont come home early. I dont check my phone every 4 minutes to make sure I'm answering her. And like you, I shrug off the attitude before I leave. When I get home, shes cold for 34 seconds. Then almost overheats. Sometime initiating or just trying to be more affectionate. Makes TONS of no sense.


----------



## farsidejunky

Here you go. This is perfect for B2.



https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/the-5-types-of-moms-to-unfriend-on-facebook-102884262552.html


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

This is not quantum mechanics. 

I'll let you in on a little secret. Part of being irresistible, is truly, fully, deeply knowing our partner. 

You will only improve your understanding, via effort. 

What is B2 trying to do when you first walk in the door after an evening out? Why is she behaving that way? 





BostonBruins32 said:


> again. very similar. "I should be home around 10pm after the game. Would you like me to grab some coffee ice cream for later?" Always felt like an easy win win.
> 
> I've stopped this. As I said, separate lives together(MC and B2's request). I've also felt really disgruntled about her responses and about her 5% effort vs my level of effort in doing things for someone you love. Therefore I'm not offering up ice cream on the way home and I'm not scheduling cuddle time tomorrow.
> 
> 
> I also note that I get a lot more respect now when I shrug things off and dont bow to her every text/call. Meaning I dont come home early. I dont check my phone every 4 minutes to make sure I'm answering her. And like you, I shrug off the attitude before I leave. When I get home, shes cold for 34 seconds. Then almost overheats. Sometime initiating or just trying to be more affectionate. Makes TONS of no sense.


----------



## MEM2020

Boston,

I believe you know how to do this, but for those readers of this thread who cannot:

When you walk in the door, B2 is some mix of anxious and irritated. She doesn't like when you go out, and she knows that you KNOW she doesn't like it. You are doing it anyway. 

This loss of control, is quite troublesome to her. 

Let's simplify. When you walk in the door - she feels bad. 

So what does she want? 

That's easy, she wants to feel better. 

She has two very distinct paths to feeling better:
- Taking out her unhappiness on you. That approach, if successful, has two benefits: (1) she feels better and (2) it reduces the frequency with which you repeat the behavior (going out) in the future. 

The thing is - if you don't react - that makes B2 anxious. Because - her ability to manage your behavior - is based to a large degree on her ability to trigger your anxiety response. 

She is is now - more anxious - than angry due to your lack of response. 

You are calm - strong - so she comes to you for a hug. For reassurance. And after that hug, she genuinely feels better. 

Perfectly normal stuff. 

Just as - it was perfectly normal for her to say in MC that she wanted you to have your own life. She didn't really mean that. What she meant was: I hate his clingy, needy, anxious behavior. And it's reached the point where, even when I kick him (figuratively speaking) in the balls he comes right back at me with the puppy dog routine. It had reached the point she would say anything to get you to back up. 

So she said: you need to have your own life
But really meant: stop smothering me 

And that's ok. We all have inconsistencies and contradictions. 

And you ought to be proud of yourself. You have changed this dynamic completely. 

You used to allow yourself to feel miserable for hours or a day - when she B2 was cold to you. And that squeeze was so miserable, you were willing to forgo the juice of outside friendships. More broadly you stopped - fill in the blank - doing anything B2 disliked. 

And now, by not reacting, the whole process lasts minutes. And the result is - B2's perception of you shifts a tiny bit towards: strong protector and away from needy husband

THIS is progress. For you, for her and for your marriage.



'steady state' result with JLD is as good as my 

Sometimes I used to read a post of Dug's and think - gosh - he is way oversimplifying this. 

And then I would get irritated because - 

I don't think that anymore. 








BostonBruins32 said:


> Yep. me to a T.
> 
> I also avoid 20 questioning her. One last october just after she almost left me for someone else, she went out with a friend. I asked her how it went and how her friend was etc, without concern of cheating, but rather I hadnt seen said friend in a few months etc. B2 got angry like theres no tomorrow "i dont want to have to answer 20 questions". I definately wasnt accuing her or thinking anything bad. A few weeks later, she went shopping all day at some outlets with her friend. She said she'd probably be home around 5, but got home at 9. I did not ask questions on this. During a conversation months later, one of the few times in the past 10 years she hasnt made fun of me for sharing my concerns, I said that I had some real bad feelings about her being gone 4 hours later than projected. I backed this up with the mentioning that if I'm running 30 mins late from work I end up with 2 texts from her asking where I am. She said she understood, and that was it. She also is notorious for not answering her phone or responding with text. Her parents and some of her girlfriends call me when they are trying to reach her. So while 2-5 years ago, I would text her and ask her if shes havign fun or I'd say "i love you, hope you're having a great night", I stopped that.
> 
> My gut says she was truly with her girlfriend, but I cant stamp it with 100%. B2 and her mom, B2 and her girlfriends always end up spending longer than projected when they go out, but this was during a time when I began to lose trust in B2.
> 
> So MEM, yes I give her good feedback. before and after. I no longer ask her anything about said adventure or outing with friend. It feels weird to be in the dark when she's running late or to not be curious when she goes out with her "husband-weatlhier-thanBB" friend who likes to get shi tfaced and stay out till 3am. But I no longer ask. I also no longer give her full details on my whereabouts. B3 and I go on an adventure every weekend morning, while B2 sleeps till 11. I dont go into too much detail to B2 when I get back unless she really presses.
> 
> I do charity road races (bike or run) on weekend mornings, and will often utilize a grandparent to watch B3 during the race. All while not telling B2 what I was up to, unless she specifically asks.
> 
> I've worked really hard to create this independent life that the MC and B2 told me to.
> 
> sorry .tangent.


----------



## BostonBruins32

MEM11363 said:


> Boston,
> 
> I believe you know how to do this, but for those readers of this thread who cannot:
> 
> When you walk in the door, B2 is some mix of anxious and irritated. She doesn't like when you go out, and she knows that you KNOW she doesn't like it. You are doing it anyway.
> 
> This loss of control, is quite troublesome to her.
> 
> Let's simplify. When you walk in the door - she feels bad.
> 
> So what does she want?
> 
> That's easy, she wants to feel better.
> 
> She has two very distinct paths to feeling better:
> - Taking out her unhappiness on you. That approach, if successful, has two benefits: (1) she feels better and (2) it reduces the frequency with which you repeat the behavior (going out) in the future.
> 
> The thing is - if you don't react - that makes B2 anxious. Because - her ability to manage your behavior - is based to a large degree on her ability to trigger your anxiety response.
> 
> She is is now - more anxious - than angry due to your lack of response.
> 
> You are calm - strong - so she comes to you for a hug. For reassurance. And after that hug, she genuinely feels better.
> 
> Perfectly normal stuff.
> 
> Just as - it was perfectly normal for her to say in MC that she wanted you to have your own life. She didn't really mean that. What she meant was: I hate his clingy, needy, anxious behavior. And it's reached the point where, even when I kick him (figuratively speaking) in the balls he comes right back at me with the puppy dog routine. It had reached the point she would say anything to get you to back up.
> 
> So she said: you need to have your own life
> But really meant: stop smothering me
> 
> And that's ok. We all have inconsistencies and contradictions.
> 
> And you ought to be proud of yourself. You have changed this dynamic completely.
> 
> You used to allow yourself to feel miserable for hours or a day - when she B2 was cold to you. And that squeeze was so miserable, you were willing to forgo the juice of outside friendships. More broadly you stopped - fill in the blank - doing anything B2 disliked.
> 
> And now, by not reacting, the whole process lasts minutes. And the result is - B2's perception of you shifts a tiny bit towards: strong protector and away from needy husband
> 
> THIS is progress. For you, for her and for your marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 'steady state' result with JLD is as good as my
> 
> Sometimes I used to read a post of Dug's and think - gosh - he is way oversimplifying this.
> 
> And then I would get irritated because -
> 
> I don't think that anymore.



Totally basic stuff and I totally agree, though didnt get it until a few months ago.


The most comical part of me smothering her was that I was especially uncomfortable during and right after her "need space". I smelled something going on and felt really strange about it. I've always celebrated her going places. I've always played it up as a great thing that she was going to see her friends without me or going to xyz. Always. She agreed with this. 

The smother thing is curious. The smother thing happened when she began to brush me off or be angry. I wanted answers and I wanted them now. I also sulked a bit when being refused for sex. I never sulked or smothered if she was doing something on her own without me. 

So on one hand, 5 out of 7 days a week when I came home to a seemingly frustrated wife who was in a bad mood, I should have brushed it off. I do now. Didnt then. Additionally I didnt feel uncomfortable about her whereabouts until I started snooping and smelled something funny. Additionally I didnt sulk unless I was rejected for sex for the 4,566,322nd time. I shouldnt have reacted those ways. But.. none of those reactions were out of the blue. She was the one angry daily when I got home. She was the one rejecting me for sex. She was the one talking to and seeing treeman and wishing upon a fallen star with her ex. Where oh where is her accountability in her actions. 

Its reminds me of that ole chestnut of the spouse getting mad for being snooped on when his or her signif finds out shes cheating. "I'm mad at you for cheating"... "well I'm mad at you for snooping"... chicken or the egg.

Now the ownership here lies in the fact that too much of my feelings were based on how she acted towards me. This sh*t has stopped. So much so that I don't even celebrate successes in my personal life with her. I still have not told her (or anyone in my personal life) about my promotion earlier this year. I do not come home and tell her when I win or place in a road race. I don't say a word if I do something above expectations for the house, (fixing something she didnt notice needed it, or making something work better/more efficient). If its a B3 thing, I owe it to her to tell her. If its a personal success, I don't bother. I used to seek her approval. If she thought I was a good boy, i must be a good boy. If she thought i was a bad boy, i was a bad boy. Done with that.


----------



## MEM2020

And by doing so, she's turned you from a little puppy dog who was a bit impatient with B3 into a great father and a much stronger husband.

Where's the gratitude? 





BostonBruins32 said:


> Totally basic stuff and I totally agree, though didnt get it until a few months ago.
> 
> 
> The most comical part of me smothering her was that I was especially uncomfortable during and right after her "need space". I smelled something going on and felt really strange about it. I've always celebrated her going places. I've always played it up as a great thing that she was going to see her friends without me or going to xyz. Always. She agreed with this.
> 
> The smother thing is curious. The smother thing happened when she began to brush me off or be angry. I wanted answers and I wanted them now. I also sulked a bit when being refused for sex. I never sulked or smothered if she was doing something on her own without me.
> 
> So on one hand, 5 out of 7 days a week when I came home to a seemingly frustrated wife who was in a bad mood, I should have brushed it off. I do now. Didnt then. Additionally I didnt feel uncomfortable about her whereabouts until I started snooping and smelled something funny. Additionally I didnt sulk unless I was rejected for sex for the 4,566,322nd time. I shouldnt have reacted those ways. But.. none of those reactions were out of the blue. She was the one angry daily when I got home. She was the one rejecting me for sex. She was the one talking to and seeing treeman and wishing upon a fallen star with her ex. Where oh where is her accountability in her actions.
> 
> Its reminds me of that ole chestnut of the spouse getting mad for being snooped on when his or her signif finds out shes cheating. "I'm mad at you for cheating"... "well I'm mad at you for snooping"... chicken or the egg.
> 
> Now the ownership here lies in the fact that too much of my feelings were based on how she acted towards me. This sh*t has stopped. So much so that I don't even celebrate successes in my personal life with her. I still have not told her (or anyone in my personal life) about my promotion earlier this year. I do not come home and tell her when I win or place in a road race. I don't say a word if I do something above expectations for the house, (fixing something she didnt notice needed it, or making something work better/more efficient). If its a B3 thing, I owe it to her to tell her. If its a personal success, I don't bother. I used to seek her approval. If she thought I was a good boy, i must be a good boy. If she thought i was a bad boy, i was a bad boy. Done with that.


----------



## Anon Pink

MEM, I'm coughing up a hair ball on the gratitude suggestion. Growth through pain inflicted by others is not a cause for gratitude toward them. Growth through cooperation of other, however, is.


ETA: his gratitude should be real, but not for his wife. She doesn't deserve kudos for falseness and manipulation.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



Anon Pink said:


> MEM, I'm coughing up a hair ball on the gratitude suggestion. Growth through pain inflicted by others is not a cause for gratitude toward them. Growth through cooperation of other, however, is.
> 
> 
> ETA: his gratitude should be real, but not for his wife. She doesn't deserve kudos for falseness and manipulation.


I understand your point AP but I don't think he was being literal.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



MEM11363 said:


> And by doing so, she's turned you from a little puppy dog who was a bit impatient with B3 into a great father and a much stronger husband.
> 
> Where's the gratitude?


Actually MEM, not to TJ, but is this what happened with you and your wife? 

Are you thankful for it?

Did it make you a better person?

Or a stronger person? 

Or both?

FWIW, I believe the two do not always coincide.


----------



## Duguesclin

BB,

Being resentful and not being transparent is not going to make your marriage better.

When your wife is gone with a friend or her mother and comes back much later than she told you, why not being genuinely worried about her safety, thinking that something bad may have happened to her? Sharing this to her would show that you care. Instead, if you are suspicious, she will be resentful.

I remember, many years ago, before cell phones were readily available, my wife came back home at midnight instead of the 9pm she promised. I was really upset because I thought she had had an accident. I was home with our very young daughter at the time, I did not have a car (we had only one at the time) and I did not know the friend phone number.When she got home, I expressed my anger. She was surprised because she felt she was just fine. I am sure this incident helped strengthen the trust she had in me because she knew I cared about her.

Your wife is probably not the best communicator and can be quite hurtful. Please keep in mind, it is not about you, but because she is not happy.

I would encourage you to build healthy habits like being transparent and practicing active listening. Even if she is a lost cause (I do not believe it is the case though), you would build some good habits for your next relationship if it were to come to that extreme.

Life is too short to be resentful.


----------



## john117

If you agree you just pegged the BPD - O - meter to solid red for B2. NormalPeople (tm) don't feel smothered. They can manage their own boundaries.


----------



## farsidejunky

I have to disagree, John. I feel smothered sometimes. So does my wife. I can read that now. That is the entire premise behind MEM's thermostat approach.


----------



## jld

By smothered, you mean when your partner is too needy, wants your reassurance too much?

Yikes, I am glad Dug is not bothered by that. He just does what he can (or what he feels like ) to meet my need. 

But he never seems to feel guilty if he doesn't succeed. He just tells me I will be fine, and then goes on with whatever he is doing.


----------



## MEM2020

Far,

M2's feedback is:
- 90 percent or more carrot / support / love / sex
- 5 percent blunt/harsh direct communication
- 5 percent emotional water boarding with no transparency as to her true feelings

And yes: made me better and stronger

So yes: grateful

And I was only half teasing Boston. He's feeling a bit sorry for himself and that's fueling his resentment. 





farsidejunky said:


> Actually MEM, not to TJ, but is this what happened with you and your wife?
> 
> Are you thankful for it?
> 
> Did it make you a better person?
> 
> Or a stronger person?
> 
> Or both?
> 
> FWIW, I believe the two do not always coincide.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> By smothered, you mean when your partner is too needy, wants your reassurance too much?
> 
> Yikes, I am glad Dug is not bothered by that. He just does what he can (or what he feels like ) to meet my need.
> 
> But he never seems to feel guilty if he doesn't succeed. He just tells me I will be fine, and then goes on with whatever he is doing.



View attachment 30410


Nailed it, jld.

Insecure people feel they may be smothered. If your partner feels smothered there's some insecurities to work thru. 

Dr. J2 has been known to be needy depending on the state of her BPD mind - par for the course - but a partner has to be able to convey feedback regarding such needs. 

If I can meet her need without being a sucker about it I will do it as far as I know how. But not to my detriment or that of my kids. If she gets too annoying I will let her know in no uncertain terms. 

At the same time I'm not needy - so i don't feel I engulf her. I do offer advise on practical aspects and that is often misinterpreted as engulfing or controlling behavior (well...)

Dr. J2 has the annoying habit of touching her face a lot. Which is major league stoopid in cold and flu season. So regardless of her protests that "I am controlling" I keep calling her out. Like a child . 

At the emotional level I could not give a care. At the practical level I care enough to not get a cold from her.

Regarding reassurances and validation, after I have said the same thing a time or two I stop responding. No point continuing hours of conversation if you've said the same thing a time or two... But I don't feel engulfed. And vice versa, I don't recall pouring my soul onto her in general...


----------



## Duguesclin

john117 said:


> View attachment 30410
> 
> Regarding reassurances and validation, after I have said the same thing a time or two I stop responding. No point continuing hours of conversation if you've said the same thing a time or two... But I don't feel engulfed. And vice versa, I don't recall pouring my soul onto her in general...


John, I would try a little bit more than 2 times. You are cheap!


----------



## john117

Dug, I survived the Great Mouse Hunt of 2014 and the Great Moth Hunt of 2014. You can't begin to believe the emotional support she needed to get past the fact that her precious home and possessions were under attack...

I can understand the need for discussion but when J2 announced she's not in the mood for sex because she was worried about mice and moths eating her clothes and (very) pricy carpets... That's MMSL (*) territory.

* Moth and Mouse Sex Life...


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

I define feeling smothered as: having an intense desire to get away from the other person

M2 and I don't feel that way with each other, with one exception. When M2 fell in love with OMan, she asked me for space. I gave it to her until she said she missed me. 

When M2 is being jealous, I don't feel smothered. I dislike the behavior, but mostly just redirect her and continue to do my thing. 

I find her 'need for me' rather appealing. 

I don't really 'need' M2 in the same way. And that feels right to me. 

You can't properly care for someone when you yourself are needy. When there is a conflict, you are torn between what you need and what they need. Doesn't work well. 






jld said:


> By smothered, you mean when your partner is too needy, wants your reassurance too much?
> 
> Yikes, I am glad Dug is not bothered by that. He just does what he can (or what he feels like ) to meet my need.
> 
> But he never seems to feel guilty if he doesn't succeed. He just tells me I will be fine, and then goes on with whatever he is doing.


----------



## Anon Pink

I will like any post that has a Harry Potter meme!


----------



## PieceOfSky

MEM11363 said:


> You can't force it. You can encourage it.




You can spend a lifetime encouraging it. And you only get one.



That's what suck with all this... There are lives in the balance.





Btw, MEM, you make a good point about finding ways to deflect/redirect so as to lose oneself by surrendering to the anxious demands of the other. That was my biggest mistake -- and over time the cost of giving in crept higher and higher, as did the demands.



She doesn't see her part. She only resents me, some how, for the toll it took on me.


----------



## john117

Anon Pink said:


> I will like any post that has a Harry Potter meme!



I have been known to send work emails with copious use of emojis and memes...


----------



## Anon Pink

john117 said:


> I have been known to send work emails with copious use of emojis and memes...


They tend to convey the mood much more eloquently than a happy or frowny face.


----------



## jld

You always make me laugh, John. MMSL, indeed. 

MEM, I can only imagine how hurt you were when your wife asked for space. How disrespected and betrayed you must have felt. How resentful. 

You understand BB's pain. And I am so sorry that you do.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

There are two areas where my confidence is rock solid:
- my ability to express myself in writing and speech
- the excellent quality companionship I offer 

So odd as it sounds, M2's desire to spend less time together didn't upset me. Half because I was clueless about OMan and half because I was certain that this was - about her - and not about me. She didn't ask for either of us to move out, simply said that she needed space. Didn't ask me to move out of the bedroom, and she didn't do so. 

The way this played out - over maybe 6 weeks or so:
- I let her choose when she wanted to spend time with me after work. Many nights she stayed in the kitchen until she was ready for sleep. 
- On the weekends and in some cases I did 3-4 day extended weekends I visited old friends and family every other weekend or so. 

I didn't feel as if she didn't love me. We continued to have sex every 4-5 days. 

While away I made a short nightly phone call to check in. When I'm traveling for work/pleasure, M2 almost always says 'I miss you' or 'I can't wait until you come home'. 

But it wasn't until the last night of my last trip - that she said that. And I remember replying with some version of: I'm glad you didn't say that - until you actually meant it. 

FWIW: That was the reason, I stopped the social travel. Had she not said that, I would have continued to visit folks. 

-------
All that said, there were some events during the OMan timeframe which were hurtful. This just wasn't one of them. 



QUOTE=jld;10977873]You always make me laugh, John. MMSL, indeed. 

MEM, I can only imagine how hurt you were when your wife asked for space. How disrespected and betrayed you must have felt. How resentful. 

You understand BB's pain. And I am so sorry that you do.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

Piece,

I was visiting my sister (who lives 1000 miles away) last year. M2 attempted to (get me to cancel) disrupt my trip twice in the month leading up to it. 

Instead of recognizing this as (intensely insecure behavior) ALL ABOUT HER. I chose to see it as her being disrespectful of my familial relationships. And so - instead of being calm and compassionate. I was aggressive and harsh. 

As a result, M2 started an intense conflict with our 17 year old daughter one day after I left. DD has always had a messy room. But suddenly M2 decided that the messy room was such a huge issue that M2 was going to call DD's manager at work (DD has a part time job which she likes) and tell her that she was forcing DD to quit. 

I intervened and efficiently shut this down via text - M2 hates text when she is in 5150 (involuntary commitment) territory. 

I did some version of: 
DD room has been messy since birth. Please hold off on any scorched earth tactics until I have returned home and we are in synch. 

But in hindsight, I believe M2 only did that because instead of me reassuring her before I left, I told her she was being a selfish -Ummm - person. 

That wasn't kind or caring of me, and it was counterproductive. 





PieceOfSky said:


> You can spend a lifetime encouraging it. And you only get one.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what suck with all this... There are lives in the balance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, MEM, you make a good point about finding ways to deflect/redirect so as to lose oneself by surrendering to the anxious demands of the other. That was my biggest mistake -- and over time the cost of giving in crept higher and higher, as did the demands.
> 
> 
> 
> She doesn't see her part. She only resents me, some how, for the toll it took on me.


----------



## MEM2020

The link below is about a hollywood producer who planned to make a movie about big cats. 

To familiarize himself with big cats, he hired a lion tamer to bring a full grown male lion to his family home 5 days a week for many months. 

The lion Neal, had full run of the house. 

The one quote jumped out at me reading the story was when the reporter asked the man's wife: 

But wasn’t she scared that she or her daughter would be injured or killed?

She said:
No, it's not good to be scared around lions.

I read that and laughed. Because that is 100% true of M2. It is NOT good to be scared around her. It actually makes her angry and aggressive. This is a hardwired response pattern. Not a choice. It happens instantly. 




Read more: Tippi Hedren reveals her regrets at letting beast share family home and even letting it sleep in daughter Melanie Griffiths bed | Daily Mail Online 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebookhe was ever scared of Neal replied: 



Tippi Hedren reveals her regrets at letting beast share family home and even letting it sleep in daughter Melanie Griffiths bed | Daily Mail Online








jld said:


> You always make me laugh, John. MMSL, indeed.
> 
> MEM, I can only imagine how hurt you were when your wife asked for space. How disrespected and betrayed you must have felt. How resentful.
> 
> You understand BB's pain. And I am so sorry that you do.


----------



## john117

One can only wonder if M2 instigates trivial flare up issues not to feed her own insecurities but to mask her own issues...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> One can only wonder if M2 instigates trivial flare up issues not to feed her own insecurities but to mask her own issues...


It sounds like she looks to MEM for reassurance. When she does not get what she looks for from him, as in the case last year with his visit to his sister, she takes out her frustration and feeling of powerlessness on something or someone she does feel she has some control over.

MEM said once that all of her tests are really asking the same question: "Do you love me?" That is pretty common, I think. And as long as a man can clearly reassure his wife with some form of, "Yes, of course I do," that should help calm her.

But John, I bet you are thinking it is not his job to have to reassure her in the first place, that she should be able to provide her own reassurance. Is that right?


----------



## john117

Yep.

I can understand reassurance in times of turmoil - being dive bombed in WW2 Europe being a good example as my parents did - but other than a major health care crisis or other unfixable type issue what reassurance is needed? That all the mice in the house were caught and deported to the neighboring town? 

They call us adults for a reason. 

If you "love" someone you can give them the opportunity to NOT have to deal with your own stuff. It's the gift of PEACE OF MIND. 

At age 55 I'm beginning to find peace of mind far preferable to sex, quality time, etc.


----------



## jld

You're getting old, John.

MEM, do you feel resentful that M2 requires your reassurance? Or do you simply accept it as part of the package?


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

Resentment: Absolutely not. 
Acceptance: Yep.





jld said:


> You're getting old, John.
> 
> MEM, do you feel resentful that M2 requires your reassurance? Or do you simply accept it as part of the package?


----------



## john117

There's reassurance, there's decision support, and there's validation-my-way-or-the-highway. 

I prefer decision support and occasional validation on specific items or issues, but I don't do the open ended "why is the sky blue" type rhetoric.

I don't mind it if I have time and energy but I'm not a therapist. That was the other side of the psych building . I can help build confidence, having taught my two girls to drive, but I'm not into reassurance for the purpose of scoring bonus points or killing time or passing tests.


----------



## jld

I appreciate your honesty, John.


----------



## john117

A rare moment  

I have 5 Ukrainian guys coming for dinner tomorrow (a subcontractor team from work). J2 has been busy cooking Russian foods... 

The amount of validation and reassurance it took me to convince her that her Russian salad is good was enough for several MEMs 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivier_salad

If her borscht is as good as her Russian salad we should be in business. 

But this shows that validation and reassurance may be related to perfectionism more than anything else. 

[Perfectionism driven by insecurity or lack of confidence to say "good enough"...]

Boston, is B2 a perfectionist? Is it an expectation game after all?


----------



## jld

She is cooking for you, John. She is helping you out. She loves you. 

I am happy to hear B2 is on her iPad less and less, and more engaged with BB and B3. I agree that BB needs to look at how to let go of resentment. I hope we can help him do that.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

In the old days, I felt a LOT of resentment.

But that was before I was able to see through the jealousy to the core driver: which is some type of insecurity

Once I understood the true source of this behavior, everything changed. 

Instead of anger and resentment, I felt compassion. 

My job is to protect and serve. It's not complicated. 

And the protection circuitry overrides everything else. That's why - when M2 is sick - my sex drive shuts off. 

And that was even true in our lates 20's when my T levels were off the charts. M2 had months of terrible mornings sickness with each child, and I remember not - wanting her. Just worrying about her. Trying to be helpful. 





jld said:


> You're getting old, John.
> 
> MEM, do you feel resentful that M2 requires your reassurance? Or do you simply accept it as part of the package?


----------



## MEM2020

John,

Yes

This is what I believe transpires:
- M2 feels threatened/anxious when I do things without her, especially social things
- M2 prides herself on being logical/rational, fair and tough

The way she feels is in direct conflict with the way she believes she should feel. 

For example, she would say: MEM is clearly HAPPY for me to go socialize with my friends. She knows that is true and at some level knows that it's selfish, etc. that she doesn't feel the same way. 

The best I'm able to do in this area is to gently observe that M2 has an intense allergy to feeling 'left out'. And then with a very light overlay of humor I add: an allergy that is triggered even if M2 was invited to join in and elected not to. 

These reactions are hardwired in both of us. 

When M2 goes out for coffee with her friend I never ask: when do you think you will be back? 

Because I don't want her to look at the clock while she's having fun.

And if coffee turns into shopping and a half day event - M2 walks in the door profusely apologizing for being 'late'. And she is clearly anxious. 

And that is pure projection. Because when I go to the gym, if I'm gone more than the usual 1.5 hours - when I walk in the door M2 asks me where I went. 

No matter how long she is gone, I greet her with a smile and only ask two questions, and it's always the same two:
1. Did you have fun
2. How is 'friends name'

And FWIW I don't like being asked to explain why I was gone for longer than the duration of a normal workout. So - I have learned to tease her with all sorts of ludicrous/humorous responses.

It isn't a trust thing. She wants to know what 'else' she got left out of. 

But none of this stuff makes me angry any more. Because I understand it. And to be fair to M2 she no longer greets me with that icy cold: Hey

She would do that and then within a few minutes she would usually go back to normal. But sometimes not. Sometimes she would start a fight. 

Because up until maybe 3-4 years ago, a trip to the gym - by myself - would create that type of hostile response pattern. Once I raised her self awareness, the overt hostility stopped. 





john117 said:


> One can only wonder if M2 instigates trivial flare up issues not to feed her own insecurities but to mask her own issues...


----------



## BostonBruins32

Haha mem , feel like I'm reading my own story. Yesterday she needed to get into work for 730 so I went in late, as b3s school starts at 10. I explained before that o would need to work layer than normal to offset it. Around 7 I get a call en route home asking where I am. I told her I stopped to get cigarettes, then went to Applebee's for the all you can eat potato skins(obviously both excuses are ridiculous)

It very much is the resentful thing I'm guilty of . That and severe distrust. See mem, what I can't get my brain around is the acceptance that someone I thought loved me from the bottom of her soul, rather simply sees me as a means to an end game. 

I don't love my job, but I see it as a means I can deal with, with enough enjoyment sprinkled in to get me what I want outside of work. I would cheat on my job(log into monster.com sometimes ) . I would never share personal secrets or feelings at work. I will play nice to get an end result sometimes, even if not genuine. But that's a job. I expected more from that from a marriage.


----------



## jld

BB, do you see the paradigm shift that MEM describes? How looking to the core driver of his issue with his wife helped him deal with his resentment?

He had to look past what he expected from her, and his frustration at not getting it. He had to look at _why_ he was not getting it, make peace with that, and try to work proactively with her, anyway.

It seems like MEM has his own personal standard for his duty in marriage: his stated desire "to protect and serve". It seems that is independent of what his wife does for him. It makes him feel good about himself, regardless of his wife's reactions.

BB, do you have an independent standard for yourself, something that you hold onto for your own conscience's sake, regardless of your wife's reactions to you? Something that is driven from within?

I am just not sure how you will feel better about your situation with your wife without some kind of emotional outcome independence. 

But it took MEM a while to get there, too. I hope you do not feel we are rushing you.


----------



## john117

Again, difference in paradigms. To protect and serve... Nope.

If one could handle the princess to McDonalds worker transformation, being chauffeured around in a state limo to driving a 20 year old car etc, then they don't need me very much for such things.

You're setting people up to develop impossible expectations. 

My late brother did just that. He dated and married someone younger than himself (he was finishing up college while she was in high school) and really spoiled her. I am sure he got decent carnal rewards for it but the price of admission was quite high. She developed a serious entitlement attitude which was a disaster at the end.


----------



## jld

Well, different people have different standards, I guess. And who gets to define "entitlement?"


----------



## MEM2020

B,
Perfect - Applebee's and cigarettes. 

Imprint your values on B2 just as you are on B3.

Play the game called: I'd rather be - with B3 at dinner. Do it in front of B2. 

And then use that as a vehicle to imprint your values. 

I'd rather be:
- rich or healthy
- young or pretty

There are lots of pairings. You let her answer than you give your answer. And in the process you allow B2 to hear your value system loud and clear. 

Start with singleton choices, and then go to compound choices:

I'd rather be:
- smart and funny or
- pretty and hardworking

Teach, inspire, lead




BostonBruins32 said:


> Haha mem , feel like I'm reading my own story. Yesterday she needed to get into work for 730 so I went in late, as b3s school starts at 10. I explained before that o would need to work layer than normal to offset it. Around 7 I get a call en route home asking where I am. I told her I stopped to get cigarettes, then went to Applebee's for the all you can eat potato skins(obviously both excuses are ridiculous)
> 
> It very much is the resentful thing I'm guilty of . That and severe distrust. See mem, what I can't get my brain around is the acceptance that someone I thought loved me from the bottom of her soul, rather simply sees me as a means to an end game.
> 
> I don't love my job, but I see it as a means I can deal with, with enough enjoyment sprinkled in to get me what I want outside of work. I would cheat on my job(log into monster.com sometimes ) . I would never share personal secrets or feelings at work. I will play nice to get an end result sometimes, even if not genuine. But that's a job. I expected more from that from a marriage.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Well, different people have different standards, I guess. And who gets to define "entitlement?"



Easy. Use a balance scale.

There should be some kind of balance in practical terms in what each partner brings into the marriage; if the balance is off big time then it's curtains.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Easy. Use a balance scale.
> 
> There should be some kind of balance in practical terms in what each partner brings into the marriage; if the balance is off big time then it's curtains.


Maybe it seems equal to start with, but we all know it does not necessarily stay that way.

I don't know, John. I am not sure about the scale. I don't know if it is a good idea to measure everything.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Teach, inspire, lead


:iagree:


----------



## MEM2020

*Weights and measures*

There have been times I've felt deprioritized by M2. It feels bad. 

If I had a time machine, I'd return to the past and start with a question for M2: 

Do you still feel that you are my highest overall priority?

And after addressing her response - whatever that was I'd ask:

Do you believe that the short list of things I care about, are still a high priority to you? Because lately, it doesn't seem so, and that feels bad. 

-------
As for applying weights and measures to individual behaviors - that's some complicated stuff. 

And it's easy to say: my partner shouldn't need (this or that) from me, because I don't need it from them. 

M2 needs a lot more verbal validation than I do. 

And she needs less sexual validation. 

It doesn't feel - symbiotic - to deny M2 something simply because I don't need it. And it would be quite sad (for me) if she were to deny me in kind for the same reason. 





jld said:


> Maybe it seems equal to start with, but we all know it does not necessarily stay that way.
> 
> I don't know, John. I am not sure about the scale. I don't know if it is a good idea to measure everything.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> I don't know, John. I am not sure about the scale. I don't know if it is a good idea to measure everything.



Humans tend to go overboard if given the chance... That's why tracking and measuring are great. The key is to keep track without making it too obvious. Humans are also lousy at quantitative estimation - too easily swayed by qualitative feedback - to be of much use. 

The Ukrainian dinner went well. The Russian salad was obliterated  and the borsht was very well received. Thankfully no ethnic Russians in the bunch as they and my wife talked at length about the "good old days" of the evil empire .


----------



## jld

Glad to hear the dinner went well, John.


----------



## farsidejunky

Just checking in on you, BB. 

Hoping for some progress.


----------



## BostonBruins32

no comment. but thanks for the check in.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



BostonBruins32 said:


> no comment. but thanks for the check in.


?


----------



## In Absentia

farsidejunky said:


> ?


he doesn't want to talk about it?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: LD women, please chime in*



In Absentia said:


> he doesn't want to talk about it?


Sometimes (often) I am dense...


----------



## Tron

BostonBruins32 said:


> I sorta get depressed, more just annoyed.
> 
> My wife does not respect me as a father (or a husband), thus the phony Facebook posts, cards, and acknowledgement this one day of year is obnoxious. So much so that I did ask her the last 2 years to please not make a big production of Fathers Day. The beat down I take the other 364 days a year with regards to how I parent ("you suck as a parent" <-actual quote) overshadows this hallmark holiday. The "fathers day" respect that I observe internally is my daughter's health and development. Her behavior around my wife isn't so great, for which I know exactly the reasons, but her behavior around me is excellent. At this point thats all i can ask for.


How are you doing BB?

Caught this on a Father's Day post. Doesn't sound like things have improved too much.


----------



## BostonBruins32

It remains stagnant. To be completely honest, I am to blame. I am holding a ton of resentment for things that havent changed and for things that happened (as noted throughout this billion page thread). I have more or less completely internalized my feelings and shifted focus on to day to day things I can impact/change.

I suppose I owe an update (not really owe, but..) . Still in the same house, as in have not upgraded to the 7,000 sq ft mansion yet. B2 is not working anymore, as it was too stressful. B2 I think is still pining for another child, but with far less pressure. Sex happens very rarely, as I have not initiated in months (maybe 8 months?). I don't decline it when she she initiates every month or 2, but it's no longer a priority for me at home. No, I'm not cheating. I'm just no longer in the business of begging or asking for it. My drive feels noticeably down from a year or two ago, likely a result of shutting off the valve. Good? Bad? not sure, but much easier. 

Day to day interaction with B2 is fine. She doesnt press on the house or having another child. She seems pretty jovial and happy around me for the most part. Relatively affectionate and contributing to things at home (dinner preparing, things around the house, help with B3 etc). I'd honestly say more of this than I've seen in a while. 

B3 is doing good. Getting set for Kindergarten. She's a good girl, but her behavior pattern is different depending on the parent. She acts up quite a bit around her mom, but rarely gives me any grief. She plays good cop bad cop between us, knowing B2 will more likely give her another chance or what she is asking for (a treat or something). I'm definately the more stern one and probably a little bit more consistent one. Essentially I give her a warning (ex: "if you kick the car seat one more time, then we are not going to Dunkin Donuts and will just head straight home, do your understand?") making sure she is fully aligned to the behavior and the consequence (always always always confirm she understands or else the warning means nothing). Then I follow through based on her choice of behavior. B2 kind of handles this different, and is very unlikely to head straight home. Neither is right or wrong, we just have different approaches. B2 will have knock down drag out fights with B3, and ask aloud why she wont listen to her. I do not offer advice or take sides in this matter, only help when called upon (she doesnt like me to intervene unless prompted). I still get undercut quite a bit when trying to put a consequence down and she still also gets mad when I do follow through with some consequences, but I'm used to this by now. 

As for myself. Still working out/running/biking like a mad man. Been working on many things around the house. Remaining heavily focused on keeping cool under storms around b2 and b3. I have likely not been as attached, affectionate, or as "close" as I could be with B2. Not sure if she can tell or not. I don't notice it in the day to day, but when I look back at the month or weeks..I know I'm not being as affectionate or close. I can only liken it to routing for a team that's not one of MY teams. Sure, if I go to a Nashville predators game in Nashville, I'll route for them. But I won't route for them with the fire I route for the Bruins with. So I'm not being the best husband I can be, that I can admit to. I'm having a real hard time with the past and the unchanged things that hurt. 

So this is probably too much detail, but it gives you an idea of the marriage, the parenting, and the self.


----------



## farsidejunky

Read Anon1111 thread, BB.


----------



## In Absentia

farsidejunky said:


> Read Anon1111 thread, BB.



although he's disappeared now... which is worrying... not even a recent update...


----------



## farsidejunky

He is still around.


----------



## In Absentia

thanks... I hope he is...


----------



## john117

Meh. Use the following marital aid...

View attachment 35818


I'm very tempted to buy one


----------



## WorkingWife

removed post 'cause I didn't realize how old this thread is...


----------



## john117

Well, BB, it's easy to work towards being the best husband etc when you have a big delta from where you are to where you want to be. If you're doing well as it is it's back to the 95% effort for 5% gain bugaboo.


----------



## BostonBruins32

john117 said:


> Well, BB, it's easy to work towards being the best husband etc when you have a big delta from where you are to where you want to be. If you're doing well as it is it's back to the 95% effort for 5% gain bugaboo.


just in it for the girl man.


----------

