# Wife forces kids into religious programs...



## Sillyputty

I've posted here in the past, it's been a while so will try again for a new perspective... my wife is devout Roman Catholic, we have raised all 3 kids "in the faith" as *required* by the RCC. Now that the kids are older 16, 13, 10, I feel they should have more of a say in churchy things, such as if they want to sign up for this retreat, or that program, etc. They still attend mass every week but it has gotten to be way over the top IMO... in fact, after a long fight with my wife, my oldest has already dropped out of the teen group and now my middle child (13) wants out but my wife threatens to make her life hell if she stops going. I find myself taking my daughter's side here as attending these extra-curricular events is not (or should not, at least) be a condition of her love and respect. When my oldest dropped out (about 6 mos ago), my wife actually said "Ok then don't expect me to go out of my way for you." Is that a horrible thing to say to your teen daughter, or what? My wife comes from a devout RCC family so it is very deep seated with her, but I don't understand how she can be so blind to what's happening. She is literally driving our kids AWAY from the church, God and (perhaps) any faith altogether... anyone have any experience or advice in these matters?


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## Married but Happy

IMO, forced religious indoctrination is a form of child abuse. Do stick up for your kids and their rights to choose their own path.

My ex went back to the religion of her childhood, and tried to indoctrinate our son. In fairness, I let her do some and take him to church occasionally, but vigorously expressed my own opinions to him. Reason prevailed, eventually.


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## DepressedHusband

Religion is mental abuse, pure and simple.


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## Sillyputty

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, forced religious indoctrination is a form of child abuse. Do stick up for your kids and their rights to choose their own path.
> 
> My ex went back to the religion of her childhood, and tried to indoctrinate our son. In fairness, I let her do some and take him to church occasionally, but vigorously expressed my own opinions to him. Reason prevailed, eventually.


I have been standing up for them, it is part of the reason my oldest found the courage to drop out and now my middle one is following suit... due to my opposition to her forced religion over the years, we are mortal enemies at heart although we are cordial to each other most of the time. I can't leave the marriage until the kids are a little older because she could still do some damage if I am not here to defend them. It totally sucks, I have learned a lot but feel like I have wasted the best years of married life with someone who views her entire existence thru the lens of her holy Roman "ism."


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## Sillyputty

DepressedHusband said:


> Religion is mental abuse, pure and simple.


I wouldn't go that far, you are entitled to your opinion of course but it is really only a problem when someone insists that their religion has a lock on the "truth" and attempts to force his/her beliefs on all family members.


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## EleGirl

So you live in a divided home. That's the lesson you are teaching your children.

I'm not sure that having your children attend some church activities is horrible.

I do know that having two parents who are at war with each other and who do not first come to agreement instead of openly fighting in front of the children is a very bad way to raise children.

Do you work a full time job? How many hours a day do are you at home parenting your children? 

How many hours a day is your wife at home parenting? Does she have a full time job?

Honestly, your children would be better off were you divorce. At least that way it's clear that the two of you are not in agreement.


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## DepressedHusband

Sillyputty said:


> I wouldn't go that far, you are entitled to your opinion of course but it is really only a problem when someone insists that their religion has a lock on the "truth" and attempts to force his/her beliefs on all family members.



Religion asserts truth, that in itself is a manipulation.


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## WorkingWife

DepressedHusband said:


> Religion asserts truth, that in itself is a manipulation.


I am not very religious but I do know this - when I look at my life and the decisions/mistakes I've made, if I had followed the 10 commandments and the other things Christianity (and I assume Judaism) teach, things would have gone MUCH more smoothly and turned out MUCH better. 

Religion manipulates, but so does lack of religion - the belief only in one's self. That definitely tends to lead one astray. There are worse fates a person can suffer than being manipulated into being a good, decent person.
@Sillyputty, I know you and your wife are not on good terms, but have you ever expressed your concern to her in the way you did here -- that as wonderful as church may be, her insistence is driving the kids away from church, and putting a wedge between them and her? 

I don't know how overboard she is with this religion thing, but from the outside I could see her perspective being that there are so many bad influences in the world, especially for teens, that she wants to keep them busy with church people and church activities so they are more likely to be surrounded by people with shared values and less likely to be around bad influences.

If you get at the heart of exactly what is driving her desire, there might be something else that the kids would like that accomplishes the same goal. (Unless she is just fanatically religious.) For example, my H and I go to college ball games and we know a lot of families that are really into them. I think it's so great because it's something a family can do together, that the teens like too.

It's very hard with teens. At some point you really can't make them do anything. Her controlling behavior is just going to drive them away.


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## Sillyputty

EleGirl said:


> So you live in a divided home. That's the lesson you are teaching your children.
> 
> I'm not sure that having your children attend some church activities is horrible.
> 
> I do know that having two parents who are at war with each other and how do not first come to agreement instead of openly fighting in front of the children is a very bad way to raise children.
> 
> Do you work a full time job? How many hours a day do are you at home parenting your children?
> 
> How many hours a day is your wife at home parenting? Does she have a full time job?
> 
> Honestly, your children would be better off were you divorce. At least that way it's clear that the two are your do not agree of you are not in agreement.


Ha, if only it were "some" church activities... she is involved in youth ministry so she feels she needs to coerce our kids to many/most retreats/activities/programs to avoid the fact that kids no longer go for Imperial Romanism... a/k/a dominion theology.

I work full time, my wife part time. We parent equally, although she has more time to do so. I am youth coach and am involved in all aspects of their lives... my wife's sole contribution is espousing her RC beliefs, it is really toxic, I would say bordering on abusive--mental & emotional, even physical a few times but I put an end to that. 

Divorce is an option when my youngest is about 13-14, right now she is still too impressionable to leave to a tyrant so I will stick it out for a while longer... the selfish part of me wants to leave now but my kids need me to balance out the toxicity.


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## Sillyputty

Thanks WW, see my post below to EleGirl... I have been very frank with her and have tried firm, gentle and in between on numerous occasions. Nothing seems to work and you are right, she is clearly driving them away but she can't see it. I keep telling her that Jesus invites us, he doesn't coerce but she clearly prefers the Taliban approach... I am at my wits end, I try to be supportive of church/religion but I cannot sit back and watch my kids cry hysterically when forced to attend "another" function or face her never-ending wrath.


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## Unique Username

Keeping preteens and teens involved in as many church activities as possible will help to keep them out of trouble.

If they (the kids) are wanting to pick and choose which church programs they want to be involved in - that's great and she should be less rigid.

YOU NEED TO BE A UNITED FRONT - trust me on this.

Why do the children NOT want to attend? Identify and explore THOSE reasons - not yours.

If they aren't going to be involved in the church activities then perhaps get them involved in something else, charitable causes important to them, sports, cultural activities (music/theater/dance/martial arts etc)

The busier they are the more likely they are NOT to get involved in drugs and other things that detour a young life.


I am confused because your first post talked of Roman Catholic Church and then your last post spoke of "Jesus invites us" which is more of a fundamentalist Christian speak.

Are you involved in the Church? Are the kids biased because of your dislike or disdain for it? If so, then check your own motivations.

Might also seek council from your Priest or Reverand.


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## MrsHolland

WorkingWife said:


> I am not very religious but I do know this - when I look at my life and the decisions/mistakes I've made, if I had followed the 10 commandments and the other things Christianity (and I assume Judaism) teach, things would have gone MUCH more smoothly and turned out MUCH better.
> 
> *Religion manipulates, but so does lack of religion - the belief only in one's self. That definitely tends to lead one astray. There are worse fates a person can suffer than being manipulated into being a good, decent person.*...........
> 
> .


IME being non religious in no way manipulates people or leads them astray. Actually those people that can self monitor and that have innate moral values are far less able to be led astray. If a person needs a crutch like religion in order to be a decent person then they will always be at risk of becoming an indecent person when that crutch is removed or used as an excuse. 
A good, decent, moral person does not need to be told to be this way. I would never trust or have any faith in a person that is only behaving decently because they are told to behave that way.


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## arbitrator

*No child needs to be subjected to the autocratic desires of anyone who unreasonably tries to subject them to their own selfish desires! Plain and simple!*


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## Lloyd Dobler

Sillyputty said:


> I've posted here in the past, it's been a while so will try again for a new perspective... my wife is devout Roman Catholic, we have raised all 3 kids "in the faith" as *required* by the RCC. Now that the kids are older 16, 13, 10, I feel they should have more of a say in churchy things, such as if they want to sign up for this retreat, or that program, etc. They still attend mass every week but it has gotten to be way over the top IMO... in fact, after a long fight with my wife, my oldest has already dropped out of the teen group and now my middle child (13) wants out but my wife threatens to make her life hell if she stops going. I find myself taking my daughter's side here as attending these extra-curricular events is not (or should not, at least) be a condition of her love and respect. When my oldest dropped out (about 6 mos ago), my wife actually said "Ok then don't expect me to go out of my way for you." Is that a horrible thing to say to your teen daughter, or what? My wife comes from a devout RCC family so it is very deep seated with her, but I don't understand how she can be so blind to what's happening. She is literally driving our kids AWAY from the church, God and (perhaps) any faith altogether... anyone have any experience or advice in these matters?


Sounds almost like my life when I was growing up. My parents were both Roman Catholic, with my Dad being the one who was more militant about us 4 kids going to church and being involved with the extra church stuff. When I was about 14-15, I knew that I wanted no part of the religious experience so I started going to church by myself - although I didn't really go. I'd walk down near where the church was and there was a big beautiful old New England cemetery that I would wander through and just spend the "church time" thinking about life. 

All 3 of my siblings and I rebelled against the forced nature of our religious experience, and even now in my 50s I've had little contact and less desire for anything religious in my life. I'm OK with others wanting and needing that, but it's just not for me.

One other thing I'll add here is that I'm pretty sure religion played a significant role in my parent's eventual divorce. Sillyputty, you remind me of how I remember my mother dealing with religion while my Dad was similar to your wife. If you want to remain with your wife rather than divorce, it's going to be a difficult road for you. I'll leave it at that.


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## C3156

My parents made us go to church because they thought it was good for us. I never got a lot out of it and still don't.

My only tidbit to add to this conversation has to do with your daughters. In my experience, the girls who were raised in highly religious homes tended to be some of the wildest ones out there. The sometimes suffocating blanket of the church caused them to rebel through sex and drugs. If your daughters are not into the church, let them have a say and talk with them about it. Don't allow your wife to force them to find validation elsewhere. 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the wildness of church rebellion when I was younger (I dated a few, best sex ever). But now as a parent of two girls, I look and think about how my actions with respect to my kids may affect them. I'm not saying your kids will end up on a Girls gone Wild video, but consider their feelings & desires moving forward.

And for your kids sake, don't stay in a marriage that you all are openly fighting and unhappy. What exactly are you teaching them? Time to have a serious heart to heart with your wife and see if you two can find some common ground to work with and can reach some balance between life and the RCC.


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## MJJEAN

Did you marry in the Church or with dispensation? If so, you were made aware before marriage that your wife was obligated by her faith to raise her children in the Church. Now, after the marriage and when the kids are in their rebellious phases, you side against your wife and her religious obligations? You have to understand that your wife is so militant about this because, to her, it's a battle for the very immortal souls of her children. If you think Momma Bears are difficult to deal with when their cubs are in physical danger, imagine how Momma Bear feels when her kids eternal souls are in danger. For your wife, this is very real.


Now, on to something more helpful.

Have you spoken with her priest and/or the DRE? Priests and DRE's have dealt with stubborn tweens and teens before. They may have some suggestions. I'd also like to echo another poster who suggested allowing the kids to choose their Church activities.

My DD is religious. My DS is not. I required Mass attendance, religious ed attendance, andd volunteer activities. DD was not a fan of the required religious ed classes, but she was quite happy to go on day retreats and volunteer to babysit the younger kids during events. DS, being not religious at all, had no desire to do ANYTHING, but I did require he at least volunteer. He got to choose how. He felt a passion for helping those less fortunate and found he enjoyed volunteering at the food bank. Maybe finding or creating a Church related activity the kids feel passionate about would help.


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## DepressedHusband

WorkingWife said:


> I am not very religious but I do know this - when I look at my life and the decisions/mistakes I've made, if I had followed the 10 commandments and the other things Christianity (and I assume Judaism) teach, things would have gone MUCH more smoothly and turned out MUCH better.
> 
> Religion manipulates, but so does lack of religion - the belief only in one's self. That definitely tends to lead one astray. There are worse fates a person can suffer than being manipulated into being a good, decent person.
> 
> @Sillyputty, I know you and your wife are not on good terms, but have you ever expressed your concern to her in the way you did here -- that as wonderful as church may be, her insistence is driving the kids away from church, and putting a wedge between them and her?
> 
> I don't know how overboard she is with this religion thing, but from the outside I could see her perspective being that there are so many bad influences in the world, especially for teens, that she wants to keep them busy with church people and church activities so they are more likely to be surrounded by people with shared values and less likely to be around bad influences.
> 
> If you get at the heart of exactly what is driving her desire, there might be something else that the kids would like that accomplishes the same goal. (Unless she is just fanatically religious.) For example, my H and I go to college ball games and we know a lot of families that are really into them. I think it's so great because it's something a family can do together, that the teens like too.
> 
> It's very hard with teens. At some point you really can't make them do anything. Her controlling behavior is just going to drive them away.


Life is transnational, the quality of your choices effects the outcome. Apply this truth liberally and all will be revealed.


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## Sillyputty

I agree with much of what you say here, including I'm okay with with her pursuing her Holy "ism" but there is no need to force feed it to your kids... as someone else mentioned she is driving them away from her church tradition, if not faith in general. I feel I need to stay in the marriage a while longer (2-3 years maybe), unless I feel like I can get primary custody of my kids... thanks for the reply.


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## Sillyputty

We married in the church and I was aware of *some* of the teachings but like many/most who understand that Romanism is an imperial-based, self-serving trap, I honestly didn't think people took the teachings so seriously... my bad there I guess. I understand that she fears for her kids' immortal souls, that was Rome's intention when it made itself the arbiter of truth and the only agency to heal original sin. Sadly she can't be reasoned with due to the effective brainwashing.

"Have you spoken with her priest and/or the DRE? Priests and DRE's have dealt with stubborn tweens and teens before. They may have some suggestions. I'd also like to echo another poster who suggested allowing the kids to choose their Church activities."

Agreed, I am putting my foot down on letting the older kids choose... whether she likes it or not, sadly, that is where we are at.

There are some church activities the kids enjoy, and I support them going unless it appears to be some brainwashing event, which is rare but still happens from time to time. Pope Francis is not a fan of Taliban Catholicism so the tide is turning... ever so slowly of course, we are talking about RC here. Thanks for your reply.


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## Sillyputty

MJJEAN said:


> Did you marry in the Church or with dispensation? If so, you were made aware before marriage that your wife was obligated by her faith to raise her children in the Church. Now, after the marriage and when the kids are in their rebellious phases, you side against your wife and her religious obligations? You have to understand that your wife is so militant about this because, to her, it's a battle for the very immortal souls of her children. If you think Momma Bears are difficult to deal with when their cubs are in physical danger, imagine how Momma Bear feels when her kids eternal souls are in danger. For your wife, this is very real.
> 
> 
> Now, on to something more helpful.
> 
> Have you spoken with her priest and/or the DRE? Priests and DRE's have dealt with stubborn tweens and teens before. They may have some suggestions. I'd also like to echo another poster who suggested allowing the kids to choose their Church activities.
> 
> My DD is religious. My DS is not. I required Mass attendance, religious ed attendance, andd volunteer activities. DD was not a fan of the required religious ed classes, but she was quite happy to go on day retreats and volunteer to babysit the younger kids during events. DS, being not religious at all, had no desire to do ANYTHING, but I did require he at least volunteer. He got to choose how. He felt a passion for helping those less fortunate and found he enjoyed volunteering at the food bank. Maybe finding or creating a Church related activity the kids feel passionate about would help.


I replied to you below but I'm having a hard time figuring out how/what/where to post replies, has this forum grown more complicated since last time of is it just me?


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## Sillyputty

WorkingWife said:


> I am not very religious but I do know this - when I look at my life and the decisions/mistakes I've made, if I had followed the 10 commandments and the other things Christianity (and I assume Judaism) teach, things would have gone MUCH more smoothly and turned out MUCH better.
> 
> Religion manipulates, but so does lack of religion - the belief only in one's self. That definitely tends to lead one astray. There are worse fates a person can suffer than being manipulated into being a good, decent person.
> 
> @Sillyputty, I know you and your wife are not on good terms, but have you ever expressed your concern to her in the way you did here -- that as wonderful as church may be, her insistence is driving the kids away from church, and putting a wedge between them and her?
> 
> Yes I have, it doesn't work... we are in therapy and just tonight she defended abusive-type behavior toward our kids in order to "pass along the faith."
> 
> I don't know how overboard she is with this religion thing, but from the outside I could see her perspective being that there are so many bad influences in the world, especially for teens, that she wants to keep them busy with church people and church activities so they are more likely to be surrounded by people with shared values and less likely to be around bad influences.
> 
> I get that and that is the upside, but they also have sports and studies (and me) so I'm not too worried about drugs and bad influences, although I fully realize the potential for this.
> 
> If you get at the heart of exactly what is driving her desire, there might be something else that the kids would like that accomplishes the same goal. (Unless she is just fanatically religious.) For example, my H and I go to college ball games and we know a lot of families that are really into them. I think it's so great because it's something a family can do together, that the teens like too.
> 
> There is NOTHING else in her view that can compete with the infallible teachings of "Holy Mother Church." LOL However, I am here to balance that out, I have coached all of my kids in youth sports, help with homework and will remain active in their lives as long as they want/need me.
> 
> 
> It's very hard with teens. At some point you really can't make them do anything. Her controlling behavior is just going to drive them away.


Correct, it already has to some degree and will continue to spiral downhill... I have warned her repeatedly to no avail... (other replies are in the above, I can't figure out this strange formatting!)


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## Sillyputty

Unique Username said:


> Keeping preteens and teens involved in as many church activities as possible will help to keep them out of trouble.
> 
> If they (the kids) are wanting to pick and choose which church programs they want to be involved in - that's great and she should be less rigid.
> 
> YOU NEED TO BE A UNITED FRONT - trust me on this.
> 
> Why do the children NOT want to attend? Identify and explore THOSE reasons - not yours.
> 
> If they aren't going to be involved in the church activities then perhaps get them involved in something else, charitable causes important to them, sports, cultural activities (music/theater/dance/martial arts etc)
> 
> The busier they are the more likely they are NOT to get involved in drugs and other things that detour a young life.
> 
> 
> I am confused because your first post talked of Roman Catholic Church and then your last post spoke of "Jesus invites us" which is more of a fundamentalist Christian speak.
> 
> Are you involved in the Church? Are the kids biased because of your dislike or disdain for it? If so, then check your own motivations.
> 
> Might also seek council from your Priest or Reverand.


Roman Catholic... have done all that, doesn't help... please see my other replies for additional details... thanks!


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## MJJEAN

Sillyputty said:


> We married in the church and I was aware of *some* of the teachings but like many/most who understand that Romanism is an imperial-based, self-serving trap, I honestly didn't think people took the teachings so seriously... my bad there I guess. I understand that she fears for her kids' immortal souls, that was Rome's intention when it made itself the arbiter of truth and the only agency to heal original sin. Sadly she can't be reasoned with due to the effective brainwashing.
> 
> "Have you spoken with her priest and/or the DRE? Priests and DRE's have dealt with stubborn tweens and teens before. They may have some suggestions. I'd also like to echo another poster who suggested allowing the kids to choose their Church activities."
> 
> Agreed, I am putting my foot down on letting the older kids choose... whether she likes it or not, sadly, that is where we are at.
> 
> There are some church activities the kids enjoy, and I support them going unless it appears to be some brainwashing event, which is rare but still happens from time to time. Pope Francis is not a fan of Taliban Catholicism so the tide is turning... ever so slowly of course, we are talking about RC here. Thanks for your reply.


You really need to learn to see your wife's faith in a better light. Tolerance, man. You love(d) this woman. You chose her to be mother to your children. You respected her faith enough to marry in her church. Her faith is part of who she is and it helped shape her into the woman you married and who raised your children with you. Try being a tad less hostile. If she perceives you as hostile toward her faith, she will be defensive and you'll just fight. If you are less hostile, more tolerant and understanding, you might be able to navigate this with a lot less hostility between you. Parents in peaceful agreement is better for the kids.

Catholicism is a lifestyle for some. Those people tend to be devout and they follow the Church's teachings and traditions as closely as possible. Others, known as "cafeteria Catholics" tend to pick and choose which teachings they follow and Catholicism is less a part of their day to day lifestyle. Sounds like you married a devout woman and thought you were marrying someone more casual in her faith practice. Yeah, your bad there unless she suddenly became devout around the time the kids were coming along. It's not unheard of for people to fall away from the faith of their youth and then feel the need to return to their faith once they have children of their own. That sudden return seems impossible to predict. If that's what happened, you couldn't have known.

Our schools require 20 hours of volunteer work per semester. For students in the National Honor Society the requirement is an additional 20 hours. Even though DS isn't interested in joining the Church, he is interested in getting his required volunteer hours and he likes the way helping people makes him feel, so... If your kids schools have something similar then having the kids volunteer at the parish seems like a way to get everyone to agree on participation. Sure, the kids aren't going "for the right reason", but thats ok so long as they go. It's up to them and God after that.



Sillyputty said:


> I replied to you below but I'm having a hard time figuring out how/what/where to post replies, has this forum grown more complicated since last time of is it just me?


Hit the quote button to quote a single post and the multiquote buttom to quote more than one post. Add your replies between tthe quoted bits.

I can't operate the forum in mobile view, so if you're on a droid or something I can't help.


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## WorkingWife

Sillyputty said:


> There is NOTHING else in her view that can compete with the infallible teachings of "Holy Mother Church." LOL


Yikes.

She sounds like the type of person I hear anti-religious people complain about as if they are the majority of religious people and I always think ...those people mostly exist just in movies and books. But every once in awhile you do meet one. Glad your kids have you. It must be so frustrating to see someone use the importance of religion to justify abusive behavior. Hello??? 

I think you need to wake up all excited and tell her you have been praying so hard about this, and the Holy Spirit visited you and told you to convince her to use gentler methods, like Jesus did.


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## GuyInColorado

Catholicism is crazy. I don't know anyone that came to that religion 100% on their own without being brain washed since they were 10 days old being baptized. Ha.

I'd say do you and your wife a favor, go have an affair and she can get the marriage annulled. Otherwise, she'll never divorce you because she'll fear she'll never see the pearly gates of heaven. 

How often do you two have sex?


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## Emerging Buddhist

I do enjoy reading @MJJEAN's understanding to the RC Dogma... very easy to understand and place perspective.

My first thought was "what would Jesus say in this situation"?

Tolerance is a great lesson... as is respect.

One day soon they will be able to make their own choices, share with your wife that with patience comes wisdom... and mercy.


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## Sillyputty

MJJEAN said:


> You really need to learn to see your wife's faith in a better light. Tolerance, man. You love(d) this woman. You chose her to be mother to your children. You respected her faith enough to marry in her church. Her faith is part of who she is and it helped shape her into the woman you married and who raised your children with you. Try being a tad less hostile. If she perceives you as hostile toward her faith, she will be defensive and you'll just fight. If you are less hostile, more tolerant and understanding, you might be able to navigate this with a lot less hostility between you. Parents in peaceful agreement is better for the kids.
> 
> Catholicism is a lifestyle for some. Those people tend to be devout and they follow the Church's teachings and traditions as closely as possible. Others, known as "cafeteria Catholics" tend to pick and choose which teachings they follow and Catholicism is less a part of their day to day lifestyle. Sounds like you married a devout woman and thought you were marrying someone more casual in her faith practice. Yeah, your bad there unless she suddenly became devout around the time the kids were coming along. It's not unheard of for people to fall away from the faith of their youth and then feel the need to return to their faith once they have children of their own. That sudden return seems impossible to predict. If that's what happened, you couldn't have known.
> 
> Our schools require 20 hours of volunteer work per semester. For students in the National Honor Society the requirement is an additional 20 hours. Even though DS isn't interested in joining the Church, he is interested in getting his required volunteer hours and he likes the way helping people makes him feel, so... If your kids schools have something similar then having the kids volunteer at the parish seems like a way to get everyone to agree on participation. Sure, the kids aren't going "for the right reason", but thats ok so long as they go. It's up to them and God after that.
> 
> 
> Hit the quote button to quote a single post and the multiquote buttom to quote more than one post. Add your replies between tthe quoted bits.
> 
> I can't operate the forum in mobile view, so if you're on a droid or something I can't help.


Listen... I went to mass with her and kids for about 12 years. It was reasonable "okay" until the kids came along and she felt the need to attend every event, read every book and defend every behavior that had the word "Catholic" attached to it. She was fairly devout before kids but OMG, after kids her immortal soul now at stake as necessitated by the imperial-style "rule" of raising your kids "in the <Roman> faith." In her view (and as any good RC will tell you), that means shaming, insulting, degrading and even using physical force to coerce them to adhere to all aspects of canon law. I understand that is part of RCC "tradition" but you have to admit it all that is pretty far adrift from the teachings of Christ.

You are correct, RC is a lifestyle for some and if done correctly is akin to physical/emotional/spiritual child abuse. Jesus invites he doesn't manipulate/coerce/abuse... I have studied RC church history for a solid 5 years and it is clear to me that many of the rules/doctrine enacted by Rome are to keep their subjects in order (or risk eternal damnation), and the conveniently ordered 7 sacraments is nothing short of a theo-political system of human bondage from cradle to grave.

Now let me apologize, it appears you are RC and I don't mean to offend you... I understand you are trying to help here but if you have witnessed what I have, you might be ashamed to be associated with the RC "faith." I can tell you that 2 of 3 of my kids have expressed they want nothing to do with it, they are literally afraid of her tyranny is their only reason for going at this point in time. Francis' call for a jubilee year of mercy was apparently lost on her, although she does claim to be a supporter... she just has to ratchet it up a bit where the pope evidently falls short, with all his silly talk of love/mercy/compassion and "who am I to judge" crap (sarcasm in case you missed it). If I seem a little hostile you might want to step back and ask yourself what behaviors you are willing to defend in order to protect Holy Mother Church from its constant companion known as scandal... giving knew meaning to the verse "Jesus wept" for sure.


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## Sillyputty

WorkingWife said:


> Yikes.
> 
> She sounds like the type of person I hear anti-religious people complain about as if they are the majority of religious people and I always think ...those people mostly exist just in movies and books. But every once in awhile you do meet one. Glad your kids have you. It must be so frustrating to see someone use the importance of religion to justify abusive behavior. Hello???
> 
> I think you need to wake up all excited and tell her you have been praying so hard about this, and the Holy Spirit visited you and told you to convince her to use gentler methods, like Jesus did.


Thanks... I have said as much and I have been firm, gentle and every shade in between... nothing "gentle" ever really works so the kids (now that they are a little older) and I have recently been steamrolling over her tyrannical rules and she basically doesn't know how to handle it. After she realizes the sky hasn't fallen (for missing mass, for example), she seems to lighten up but that only lasts as long as the next "occasion of sin" comes along. Sadly, you really have to witness it first hand to understand the toxic power of religious indoctrination.


----------



## Sillyputty

GuyInColorado said:


> Catholicism is crazy. I don't know anyone that came to that religion 100% on their own without being brain washed since they were 10 days old being baptized. Ha.
> 
> I'd say do you and your wife a favor, go have an affair and she can get the marriage annulled. Otherwise, she'll never divorce you because she'll fear she'll never see the pearly gates of heaven.
> 
> How often do you two have sex?


You are right, short of physical abuse and/or having an affair she is not permitted to divorce me (ahem, I mean seek a "decree of nullity"). That is the silver lining, I suppose, but I would much rather have an amicable, love-filled marriage with the mother of my children with all the time we have invested.

Sex has gone from once every couple weeks to basically non existent over the last 12 months. That is a whole other story/problem, I believe is also tied in with her devotion to Holy Mother Church.


----------



## Sillyputty

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I do enjoy reading @MJJEAN's understanding to the RC Dogma... very easy to understand and place perspective.
> 
> My first thought was "what would Jesus say in this situation"?
> 
> Tolerance is a great lesson... as is respect.
> 
> One day soon they will be able to make their own choices, share with your wife that with patience comes wisdom... and mercy.


Tolerance and respect are great but they only work if it is a reciprocal arrangement. RC is not structured that way, unfortunately, although they make claims to the contrary. Jesus would be very ashamed of the self-serving power structures created by imperial Rome which remain to this very day, albeit to a lesser degree.


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## Talker67

woah, you are playing with fire here. Why not let her "force" the kids to get some religious training for the time being, and when they are 17 and go off to college they can stop, and start making decisions for themselves like adults. A little religious training is not going to kill them, no matter how much they ***** about it.


----------



## Sillyputty

Talker67 said:


> woah, you are playing with fire here. Why not let her "force" the kids to get some religious training for the time being, and when they are 17 and go off to college they can stop, and start making decisions for themselves like adults. A little religious training is not going to kill them, no matter how much they ***** about it.


"Some religious training???" Mr/Mrs, you have no idea what you are talking about, if you pledge to raise your kids in RC there is no end to the "training," very little of which is actually based on the teachings of Christ. You would have to study church history in its totality to understand this. In addition to the emotional abuse, it is possible kids may never return to a more authentic faith so that would be spiritual abuse as well. Are you Catholic or do you belong to a less rigid/authoritarian denomination?


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Sillyputty said:


> Tolerance and respect are great but they only work if it is a reciprocal arrangement. RC is not structured that way, unfortunately, although they make claims to the contrary. Jesus would be very ashamed of the self-serving power structures created by imperial Rome which remain to this very day, albeit to a lesser degree.


It doesn't matter how RC is structured... what matters is how we ourselves are structured and if you want to live the tolerance you promote, those we disagree with are our best teachers. We can teach our children an incredible lesson in respect by practicing things, like kindness, in situations that we are not really in tune with, and maybe even dislike. So today I have to take a class or participate in something I really don't want to partake in... I know it doesn't click for me, but am I aware of why it doesn't gel?

Time at that age... who has it, right? 

You cannot fight your wife's faith and not be seen as an apostate by her... so lay down the sword and let her know that you will no longer fight her. I agree with others, it's time to share your concern with your Priest... I would gather they see these struggles all the time.

If anyone is going to ease you wife's fears... it will be this level of the faithful.

In the mean time, think about all the good things you and your children can be doing together that would make your faith in and of Christianity proud... I'll bet she'll see it and if she doesn't, you'll still be representing your Christ well, and isn't that the goal?


----------



## MJJEAN

Sillyputty said:


> Listen... I went to mass with her and kids for about 12 years. It was reasonable "okay" until the kids came along and she felt the need to attend every event, read every book and defend every behavior that had the word "Catholic" attached to it. She was fairly devout before kids but OMG, after kids her immortal soul now at stake as necessitated by the imperial-style "rule" of raising your kids "in the <Roman> faith." In her view (and as any good RC will tell you), that means shaming, insulting, degrading and even using physical force to coerce them to adhere to all aspects of canon law. I understand that is part of RCC "tradition" but you have to admit it all that is pretty far adrift from the teachings of Christ.
> 
> You are correct, RC is a lifestyle for some and if done correctly is akin to physical/emotional/spiritual child abuse. Jesus invites he doesn't manipulate/coerce/abuse... I have studied RC church history for a solid 5 years and it is clear to me that many of the rules/doctrine enacted by Rome are to keep their subjects in order (or risk eternal damnation), and the conveniently ordered 7 sacraments is nothing short of a theo-political system of human bondage from cradle to grave.
> 
> Now let me apologize, it appears you are RC and I don't mean to offend you... I understand you are trying to help here but if you have witnessed what I have, you might be ashamed to be associated with the RC "faith." I can tell you that 2 of 3 of my kids have expressed they want nothing to do with it, they are literally afraid of her tyranny is their only reason for going at this point in time. Francis' call for a jubilee year of mercy was apparently lost on her, although she does claim to be a supporter... she just has to ratchet it up a bit where the pope evidently falls short, with all his silly talk of love/mercy/compassion and "who am I to judge" crap (sarcasm in case you missed it). If I seem a little hostile you might want to step back and ask yourself what behaviors you are willing to defend in order to protect Holy Mother Church from its constant companion known as scandal... giving knew meaning to the verse "Jesus wept" for sure.


I was raised Protestant and am a convert, so I can understand your point of view. 

I'm honestly not sure how much of the problem is the Church and how much of it is incompatible parenting styles. Your wife seems to be the kind of parent who demands respect and obedience cuz she is the mom and she said so while you seem to be a bit more relaxed in your approach.

If your kids were complaining she shamed them for low grades or said they were only practicing the piano daily because they are afraid of their mothers tyranny, would you feel the same? Is the root of the problem her faith or how she handles the kids when they put up a fuss?

Also, just curious, but what would the kids be doing with their time if they weren't participating in Church activities? Frankly, I wouldn't let a kid skip a religious ed class or bail on Mass to go goofing off with their friends or sleep in on Sunday.

And, another curious question, how long has this been ongoing? It might just be a matter of waiting it out. When I was taking my kids to religious ed classes and the accompanying enrichment retreatss, it ate all of Sunday and part of the preceeding Saturday, too. Then there were my own classes, volunteering, and retreats. That usually meant a few hours spread over a couple days during the week, plus drive time. It was hectic, to say the least. However, once we had completed the classes, the schedule of religious obligations was reduced to weekly Mass and Holy Days obligations.

Where are your kids in terms of religious rites? If the older ones are doing Confirmation prep and the younger is doing First Holy Communion prep, the obligations will lessen once they have completed their Sacramental prep and the furor should die down a bit.

When DS was giving me grief about Mass attendance, I told him he was welcome to stay home. However, he wouldn't be allowed to sleep in or watch TV or goof around online. Oh, no. He'd be up and dressed with the rest of us and spend his Sunday morning being useful. On the days he didn't want to go to Mass, he had to spend that time sweeping, vacuuming, wiping down tables, washing dishes by hand, etc. and woe unto him if the assigned chores were half-assed or not done. Amazing how often he'd rather go to Mass.

Oh, what about the other kids in the classes and going to the retreats? Do your kids have no friends at Church? I know mine made a couple of friends and sometimes only went to socialize, but again, once they're there it's up to the Holy Spirit. I lead them to water, but they have to drink on their own.

Are you certain you want a divorce or are you just very frustrated right now?


----------



## Ursula

Hey @Sillyputty, I haven't read any of the replies yet, but what strikes me is that many religious people/groups say that they are accepting, respectful, inclusive, promote strength of character, etc., and yet, many people do not actually practice these. 

Personally, I think that the treatment of your children by your wife is wrong in general, not just where religion is concerned. Your wife telling your daughter that she will make her life a hell if she drops out of her teen group doesn't sound very Godly to me; in fact, just the opposite! Teenagers may not be 100% equipped to make large decisions, but they are certainly capable of developing into their personalities, forming opinions, and they should feel safe voicing those opinions, especially at home, which should act as their soft place to fall, where they can feel safe being themselves. So no, I don't think that this should be a condition of your wife's love and respect for your children. And yes, I do think that the kid's opinions should be taken into account when signing them up for retreats and programs. This will certainly drive them away from the church!



Sillyputty said:


> I've posted here in the past, it's been a while so will try again for a new perspective... my wife is devout Roman Catholic, we have raised all 3 kids "in the faith" as *required* by the RCC. Now that the kids are older 16, 13, 10, I feel they should have more of a say in churchy things, such as if they want to sign up for this retreat, or that program, etc. They still attend mass every week but it has gotten to be way over the top IMO... in fact, after a long fight with my wife, my oldest has already dropped out of the teen group and now my middle child (13) wants out but my *wife threatens to make her life hell* if she stops going. I find myself taking my daughter's side here as attending these extra-curricular events is not (or *should not, at least) be a condition of her love and respect*. When my oldest dropped out (about 6 mos ago), my wife actually said "Ok then don't expect me to go out of my way for you." Is that a horrible thing to say to your teen daughter, or what? My wife comes from a devout RCC family so it is very deep seated with her, but I don't understand how she can be so blind to what's happening. She is literally *driving our kids AWAY from the church, God and (perhaps) any faith altogether*... anyone have any experience or advice in these matters?


----------



## Ursula

MrsHolland said:


> IME being non religious in no way manipulates people or leads them astray. Actually those people that can self monitor and that have innate moral values are far less able to be led astray. If a person needs a crutch like religion in order to be a decent person then they will always be at risk of becoming an indecent person when that crutch is removed or used as an excuse.
> A good, decent, moral person does not need to be told to be this way. I would never trust or have any faith in a person that is only behaving decently because they are told to behave that way.


Whoo hoo, I wish I could like this post more than once! 

:iagree:


----------



## m00nman

GuyInColorado said:


> Catholicism is crazy. I don't know anyone that came to that religion 100% on their own without being brain washed since they were 10 days old being baptized. Ha.
> 
> I'd say do you and your wife a favor, go have an affair and she can get the marriage annulled. Otherwise, she'll never divorce you because she'll fear she'll never see the pearly gates of heaven.
> 
> How often do you two have sex?


I agree with part of this, but wouldn't condone having extramarital activities. That could just crack the shell off the nut. (Not my analogy but one that I find funny and had to share.)

The thing with religion is that there is a deeper meaning behind the dogma that is meant to improve how we treat each other in life and provides a basis for teaching our offspring ethics. Some religions have been usurped by individuals in positions of leadership because dogma is consumed as being literal truth by the weak minded. That's absolute power, which has been shown throughout history to corrupt absolutely. 

I'm not saying all religion is bad, but when it creates feelings of guilt and self loathing then maybe it's time to rethink the message. If you want to remain married then your wife needs to be deprogrammed without dropping her core beliefs. OTOH you need to respect that she has them. Who knows? Maybe you two would be happier being Protestants? They still listen to the Pope but the approach to scripture in some denominations is more analytical. Who knows, maybe the "cure" could be as simple as switching from wine (or Kool Aid) to grape juice? </tongue in cheek>

Now if it truly does come down to parting ways, I think I see a course of reasoning that might satisfy the OP, his wife and the church without pushing the wife into her own personal abyss and robbing the kids of their mother and making post-D coparenting a living hell. I don't know if he is agnostic or spiritual in any way but clearly he's not Catholic. If it gets to the point where they seek to have the marriage anulled establishing that would probably void the marriage in the eyes of the church tribunal. That should absolve the wife's fear of being excommunicated. As for the kids, as long as she testifies that she believed in her vows with the intent to raise her children as direct by the church then they should consider that the marriage was putative so that any children conceived would not be considered to be illegitimate even if the marriage "never happened." Either way, from what I understand anullment is a long drawn out process and could take years. By then even your youngest could be considered to have reached the "age of reason." 

Frankly though, I don't see the reason to delay or walk on eggshells. There needs to be a "come to Jesus" moment ASAP. 





Sorry - couldn't resist! :wink2:


----------



## 23cm

Sillyputty said:


> You are right, short of physical abuse and/or having an affair she is not permitted to divorce me (ahem, I mean seek a "decree of nullity"). That is the silver lining, I suppose, but I would much rather have an amicable, love-filled marriage with the mother of my children with all the time we have invested.
> 
> Sex has gone from once every couple weeks to basically non existent over the last 12 months. That is a whole other story/problem, I believe is also tied in with her devotion to Holy Mother Church.


Your comment about "all the time we have invested" is virtually the definition of the The Sunk Cost Fallacy....The Misconception: You make rational decisions based on the future value of objects, investments and experiences. The Truth: Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it.

My wife will have NOTHING to do with anything religious because as a child she was forced by an abusive mother to attend a fundamentalist Christian church and beaten when she objected or refused. Her dad was a milquetoast who disappeared into his workshop while mom beat the children. She barely tolerates her father and when her mother died last year, she all but danced on the grave. Fortunately, your children have you. 

Your wife's actions are scaring your children for life. Do what you need to do to get them away from the mad woman.


----------



## Sillyputty

MJJEAN said:


> I was raised Protestant and am a convert, so I can understand your point of view.
> 
> I'm honestly not sure how much of the problem is the Church and how much of it is incompatible parenting styles. Your wife seems to be the kind of parent who demands respect and obedience cuz she is the mom and she said so while you seem to be a bit more relaxed in your approach.
> 
> If your kids were complaining she shamed them for low grades or said they were only practicing the piano daily because they are afraid of their mothers tyranny, would you feel the same? Is the root of the problem her faith or how she handles the kids when they put up a fuss?
> 
> Also, just curious, but what would the kids be doing with their time if they weren't participating in Church activities? Frankly, I wouldn't let a kid skip a religious ed class or bail on Mass to go goofing off with their friends or sleep in on Sunday.
> 
> And, another curious question, how long has this been ongoing? It might just be a matter of waiting it out. When I was taking my kids to religious ed classes and the accompanying enrichment retreatss, it ate all of Sunday and part of the preceeding Saturday, too. Then there were my own classes, volunteering, and retreats. That usually meant a few hours spread over a couple days during the week, plus drive time. It was hectic, to say the least. However, once we had completed the classes, the schedule of religious obligations was reduced to weekly Mass and Holy Days obligations.
> 
> Where are your kids in terms of religious rites? If the older ones are doing Confirmation prep and the younger is doing First Holy Communion prep, the obligations will lessen once they have completed their Sacramental prep and the furor should die down a bit.
> 
> When DS was giving me grief about Mass attendance, I told him he was welcome to stay home. However, he wouldn't be allowed to sleep in or watch TV or goof around online. Oh, no. He'd be up and dressed with the rest of us and spend his Sunday morning being useful. On the days he didn't want to go to Mass, he had to spend that time sweeping, vacuuming, wiping down tables, washing dishes by hand, etc. and woe unto him if the assigned chores were half-assed or not done. Amazing how often he'd rather go to Mass.
> 
> Oh, what about the other kids in the classes and going to the retreats? Do your kids have no friends at Church? I know mine made a couple of friends and sometimes only went to socialize, but again, once they're there it's up to the Holy Spirit. I lead them to water, but they have to drink on their own.
> 
> Are you certain you want a divorce or are you just very frustrated right now?


My kids have all received all the sacraments, they are all fully initiated in the church and then some... the problem is exacerbated in that my wife is employed by the church to teach youth ministry, thus I'm sure she feels she has to be super catholic, as well as insist that the kids attend every event whether they like it or not... it causes major fights let me tell you, it's a little hard to sell that you belong to a church of mercy when the woman shames, guilts, degrades and threatens kids to go or else face her wrath--the wrath of God is also implied although she usually stops short of verbalizing this.

They have a few friends in group but it is largely comprised of home-schooled kids who have a cultish mentality--exclusive groupthink if you know what I mean. They would have discussions and my oldest daughter said she did not feel comfortable expressing her opinions, I recently supported her to leave the group, of course it ended in a big fight but I honestly don't care any more, I need to do what's right to protect my kids. My middle daughter is about ready to leave as well, I told my wife it has to be "optional or not at all." 

I'm not certain I want divorce but I feel there is next to nothing left to latch onto, especially once the kids are grown. She may very well "calm down" at that point but, like I said, how can I respect someone who inflicted this type of abuse, ignored my repeated warnings--pleas to at least compromise with me--all this done in the name of God? Really??

I used to be Protestant too, I converted to get married but as I said earlier did not take the massive doctrines too seriously, heck we even used contraception from time to time--until she grew more "devout" of course, then all bets were off... I ended up getting a vasectomy as I began to see where this was all heading. Curious--did you convert for the same reason (marriage) or did you find authentic value in the Roman faith?


----------



## Sillyputty

m00nman said:


> I agree with part of this, but wouldn't condone having extramarital activities. That could just crack the shell off the nut. (Not my analogy but one that I find funny and had to share.)
> 
> The thing with religion is that there is a deeper meaning behind the dogma that is meant to improve how we treat each other in life and provides a basis for teaching our offspring ethics. Some religions have been usurped by individuals in positions of leadership because dogma is consumed as being literal truth by the weak minded. That's absolute power, which has been shown throughout history to corrupt absolutely.
> 
> I'm not saying all religion is bad, but when it creates feelings of guilt and self loathing then maybe it's time to rethink the message. If you want to remain married then your wife needs to be deprogrammed without dropping her core beliefs. OTOH you need to respect that she has them. Who knows? Maybe you two would be happier being Protestants? They still listen to the Pope but the approach to scripture in some denominations is more analytical. Who knows, maybe the "cure" could be as simple as switching from wine (or Kool Aid) to grape juice? </tongue in cheek>
> 
> Now if it truly does come down to parting ways, I think I see a course of reasoning that might satisfy the OP, his wife and the church without pushing the wife into her own personal abyss and robbing the kids of their mother and making post-D coparenting a living hell. I don't know if he is agnostic or spiritual in any way but clearly he's not Catholic. If it gets to the point where they seek to have the marriage anulled establishing that would probably void the marriage in the eyes of the church tribunal. That should absolve the wife's fear of being excommunicated. As for the kids, as long as she testifies that she believed in her vows with the intent to raise her children as direct by the church then they should consider that the marriage was putative so that any children conceived would not be considered to be illegitimate even if the marriage "never happened." Either way, from what I understand anullment is a long drawn out process and could take years. By then even your youngest could be considered to have reached the "age of reason."
> 
> Frankly though, I don't see the reason to delay or walk on eggshells. There needs to be a "come to Jesus" moment ASAP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry - couldn't resist! :wink2:


Thank you moonman, a very well-reasoned reply. The usurpation you mention happened in Rome about when emperor Constantine married church with state back in the 4th century. Indoctrination is very real and is very powerful as you mention. Deprogramming is not an easy task but God know I have been trying... we are in counseling and I am actually in progress of putting some non-negotiables down on paper, most of them concern her treatment of the kids. I will present it to her within a few days, not holding my breath though as I have drawn lines in the sand before and she can't seem to stay in bounds. I believe deep down she is a good woman, she just can't overcome the deep seated indoctrination that was her constant companion growing up.

I am not at all worried about her annulment prospects, a civil divorce will be sufficient for me... if she can't meet my simple demands of "first do no harm" with respect to faith matters, why would I worry about her standing before the church?


----------



## Sillyputty

Great replies everyone, thank you so much... very diverse too, I think I know my course of action but it is good to hear the different perspectives nonetheless. We will be having a "come to Jesus" moment soon as moonman suggests, I will post back to let everyone know the outcome if you are interested to hear... I can likely predict the outcome but I need to get all the cards on the table in order to say I gave it my all, this has been going on for a dozen years or more and there is only so much I can take before a broken family becomes preferable to an intact, miserable one. Thanks again for all your feedback!!


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## Wolf1974

Look at the end of the day you protect your kids. You fight for them. If this is a type of abuse your damn straight you put your foot Down and fight for them. Doesn't matter if you win they will remember you fought. 

Personally have no use for religion once I say how hypocritical they were in my divorce. And I don't raise my kids in it any longer. Without my support my x has trouble doing the same. 

These are your kids. That's all that matters.


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## m00nman

Sillyputty said:


> Thank you moonman, a very well-reasoned reply. The usurpation you mention happened in Rome about when emperor Constantine married church with state back in the 4th century. Indoctrination is very real and is very powerful as you mention. Deprogramming is not an easy task but God know I have been trying... we are in counseling and I am actually in progress of putting some non-negotiables down on paper, most of them concern her treatment of the kids. I will present it to her within a few days, not holding my breath though as I have drawn lines in the sand before and she can't seem to stay in bounds. I believe deep down she is a good woman, she just can't overcome the deep seated indoctrination that was her constant companion growing up.
> 
> I am not at all worried about her annulment prospects, a civil divorce will be sufficient for me... if she can't meet my simple demands of "first do no harm" with respect to faith matters, why would I worry about her standing before the church?


By "worrying about her standing before the church" I'm hoping that she doesn't go off the deep end during the D because of a civil divorce being viewed as a sin in her eyes. Even after D you will still have to coparent them with her and you don't want to make her any more of an enemy. It's called "good faith" - no pun intended.


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## jld

Sillyputty said:


> We married in the church and I was aware of *some* of the teachings but like many/most who understand that Romanism is an imperial-based, self-serving trap, I honestly didn't think people took the teachings so seriously... my bad there I guess. I understand that she fears for her kids' immortal souls, that was Rome's intention when it made itself the arbiter of truth and the only agency to heal original sin. *Sadly she can't be reasoned with due to the effective brainwashing.*
> 
> "Have you spoken with her priest and/or the DRE? Priests and DRE's have dealt with stubborn tweens and teens before. They may have some suggestions. I'd also like to echo another poster who suggested allowing the kids to choose their Church activities."
> 
> Agreed, I am putting my foot down on letting the older kids choose... whether she likes it or not, sadly, that is where we are at.
> 
> There are some church activities the kids enjoy, and I support them going unless it appears to be some brainwashing event, which is rare but still happens from time to time. Pope Francis is not a fan of Taliban Catholicism so the tide is turning... ever so slowly of course, we are talking about RC here. Thanks for your reply.


Sounds like my dad.

Just be glad she did not refuse to use birth control, like he did. You, too, could have ended up with 11 children. 

Almost none of us ended up staying in the Catholic Church. Some became evangelicals, some went to more mainstream Protestantism, and some of us left religion altogether.

Gosh, all those years of forced weekly Mass attendance, Catholic school, and having to kneel down on the floor every night to say the night prayer, and ultimately all Dad managed to do was more or less alienate his children from the most important thing to him: fidelity to the Church.


----------



## Talker67

Sillyputty said:


> "Some religious training???" Mr/Mrs, you have no idea what you are talking about, if you pledge to raise your kids in RC there is no end to the "training," very little of which is actually based on the teachings of Christ. You would have to study church history in its totality to understand this. In addition to the emotional abuse, it is possible kids may never return to a more authentic faith so that would be spiritual abuse as well. Are you Catholic or do you belong to a less rigid/authoritarian denomination?


i am catholic, and went to catholic grades school and high school, so i think i know what i am talking about. There is no dungeon where they torture poor little kids until they are brainwashed about Catholicism. You seem to be very anti catholic. did you personally have some sort of bad trouble with a priest or something?

Any religion is what YOU make of it. I fear your attitude might be turning off your kids_ for good_, when in fact they might want to pursue some form of organized religion in their adult life.


----------



## Sillyputty

Talker67 said:


> i am catholic, and went to catholic grades school and high school, so i think i know what i am talking about. There is no dungeon where they torture poor little kids until they are brainwashed about Catholicism. You seem to be very anti catholic. did you personally have some sort of bad trouble with a priest or something?
> 
> Any religion is what YOU make of it. I fear your attitude might be turning off your kids_ for good_, when in fact they might want to pursue some form of organized religion in their adult life.


Talker: as you likely know (or should know), there are two types of Catholics (and many stripes in between of course, but for the sake of argument...)--regular catholics and Taliban Catholics (TC). Regular catholics accept the teachings of Vatican II and take things in stride, like ecumenism, reading the bible and a general goodwill toward people of all faiths. Taliban Catholics cling to the idea that they belong to the One True Church, outside of which there is no salvation. Now, my wife isn't fully in the TC wing of the church but the problem is that most of the doctrine in support of TC is still "on the books." So if you come from a background where this fossilized doctrine still holds sway, there is a temptation to resort to the old-school tactics theology by guilt, fear, shaming, etc. And since she is involved in youth ministry, it isn't too hard to fall back on these destructive modes of teaching. It is the latter that I can't tolerate because I have seen the harmful effects first hand, naturally made worse when your own kids are involved... make sense?


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## NextTimeAround

another aspect that you and your wife should be considering is the competitiveness in school.

I went to a high school that knew no boundaries when it came to homework. in high school, yes, 10 page papers were due on Monday. the stated goal was to give each student 30 to 45 minutes of homework each night.

Add to that extra- curricular activities and well, those students whose parents were keen on the kids succeeding.... I don't need to finish this.

Why don't you have a look at college applications and see what emphasis they put on things. I hear nowadays, volunteering is sought after. IS there a group at church that tries to channel the high school age parishioners into charity volunteering? But I'm sure there is usual, grades, test scores, leadership activities, accomplishments and so on. How much will hanging around the cathedral will that help your kids?

And I am sure that you will want kids to receive whatever they can in scholarships to defray some of the costs of university.

I wonder how much credit Georgetown or Notre Dame gives church going.

And also, we're in a relationship based economy. Any parent who makes it difficult for their child to make and maintain friendships is downright abusive. Networking is a sought after skill in business.

Hope that helps in some talking points with your wife and the counselor.


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## Sillyputty

NextTimeAround said:


> another aspect that you and your wife should be considering is the competitiveness in school.
> 
> I went to a high school that knew no boundaries when it came to homework. in high school, yes, 10 page papers were due on Monday. the stated goal was to give each student 30 to 45 minutes of homework each night.
> 
> Add to that extra- curricular activities and well, those students whose parents were keen on the kids succeeding.... I don't need to finish this.
> 
> Why don't you have a look at college applications and see what emphasis they put on things. I hear nowadays, volunteering is sought after. IS there a group at church that tries to channel the high school age parishioners into charity volunteering? But I'm sure there is usual, grades, test scores, leadership activities, accomplishments and so on. How much will hanging around the cathedral will that help your kids?
> 
> And I am sure that you will want kids to receive whatever they can in scholarships to defray some of the costs of university.
> 
> I wonder how much credit Georgetown or Notre Dame gives church going.
> 
> And also, we're in a relationship based economy. Any parent who makes it difficult for their child to make and maintain friendships is downright abusive. Networking is a sought after skill in business.
> 
> Hope that helps in some talking points with your wife and the counselor.


A little off the topic at hand, but that is one way to put a positive spin on it--they have lots of volunteer work, some against their will of course but it still counts, right? I like your point about being in a "relationship based economy." A valid point and although she doesn't discourage friendships outside of the church, she has not made it easy either. Un-churched families are looked upon with a disproportionate amount of skepticism, however good their values and personal demeanor appear to be... anyway, thanks for the feedback.


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## NextTimeAround

Sillyputty said:


> A little off the topic at hand, but that is one way to put a positive spin on it--they have lots of volunteer work, some against their will of course but it still counts, right? I like your point about being in a "relationship based economy." * A valid point and although she doesn't discourage friendships outside of the church, she has not made it easy either. * Un-churched families are looked upon with a disproportionate amount of skepticism, however good their values and personal demeanor appear to be... anyway, thanks for the feedback.


She's discouraging them then. I realise now that my mother was trying to choose my friends as well. I just didn't notice when I was in high school but certainly did in my 20s and beyond. When your kids figure it out, they are not going to have a good opinion of your mother.

My grandfather was a minister. he had my father under his thumb for all his life. I realise now that for all my father's 80 hour work weeks, some of that money never came home to us. instead, it went to make my grandfather who was never going to be happy with father happy or accepting of him. 

We would go to church. then lunch at my grandparents and then hang around their house till late in the evening. If my father ever noticed that I cracked a book, there would be hell to pay.

*And yet, with my parents both degree holders, they would be the first to tell anyone how important a university degree is. We need to be careful with what people say and what they do.
*
To this day, my mother likes comparing me to "the other black girl" in my class. She was on scholarship, ergo, she got her education for free...... and had a younger sister by two years. I had three younger siblings by 9 years. Imagine how much housework, babysitting and so on that cut in to my high school and study time. She graduated 2nd on the class. I graduated 10th in the class. 

If the situation had been different, wonder how different the outcome would have been?


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