# Where is the line between "settling" and making it work?



## Justfine (Sep 17, 2012)

We are in our mid-20s, married for 3 years. We have no kids but own a house. It never bothered me before, but now that things have settled down quite a bit, I have a nagging feeling about a missing "spark" in our marriage. I must have been swept off my feet by the excitement of being in a relationship, because I can never remember feeling butterflies for him. We get along fantastically, and we have similar tempos, so when we got engaged and married, it seemed just fine to me. Now, however, I am bothered so much by the possibility that I felt so flattered by his love and "went along" with the whole dating-engaged-marriage cycle without really soul searching.

I hate to be mean and hurt people's feelings, and I admitted last night that I loved him as a friend. It made me feel terrible and it made him feel even worse. I thought we should try an unofficial separation and see how we felt, but when he packed his stuff, the sight of him looking so devastated and the knowledge of how awful I made him feel changed my mind immediately. I apologized and said I did love him. I know that any kind of dragging it out (if it is a real issue and not just some sort of weird phase I'm going through) will hurt much more in the long run. However, I'm not committed enough to this concept to risk hurting him if I'm wrong about myself. And I am averse to dropping an anvil like this on his head because he means a lot to me. He is fairly a model husband - he loves to cook and clean, we both work and make the same salary, he is a responsible and attentive guy, albeit with some issues but no more than I have, and nothing truly horrific. So, on paper I have an absolute catch and this would come as a shock to anyone who knows us.

I have never been unfaithful in any way and although I am fundamentally against divorce, I would still do it before cheating.

I feel in my heart that something's missing for me. This is hard to say so I'm going to spit it out: he's never given me butterflies. The first time we kissed I wasn't attracted to him. I've never had an O with him.

I'm not sure if this is an indicator or not... I have always been a pleasant drunk, and when we got together, we began to have some of the worst drunk fights I have ever seen. I am not sure if this is something in my subconscious resisting... I could be totally pulling things out of the air. I am fundamentally against divorce because my parents had a nasty one.

When we got engaged, I called my father (who I'm close with) and asked him how he knew if someone's "The One." Today when I called him for advice over our incident, he brought it up and commented that he found it odd that I had to ask someone else if I was in love. To be honest lately I've been imagining myself using my maiden name again and the thought is exciting. Just to be me.

I hate that I feel this way. And I feel like an idiot. There is nothing wrong with my marriage except for this missing feeling. Has anyone been in this situation? And does anyone know where the line is drawn between keeping your vows, feeling like you've settled with "just fine," choosing the wrong person, making it work with the person you've chosen, etc.?

Or does anyone think I'm overreacting and this feeling will pass?
Thanks


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## Hellioness (Jul 6, 2012)

I think first you need to figure out rather or not you WANT the marriage to work. Not because it's familiar, or easy, or because you don't like divorce, and certainly not because you feel guilty, but because you LOVE him and WANT to be with him.

I stayed with my first husband longer than I should have purely out of guilt, because I felt horrible being honest with him and seeing the reaction. I felt that I wasn't trying hard enough, that I was a horrible person, etc but you should never feel guilty for wanting to be happy. 

So do you WANT the marriage to work? Are you in LOVE with him, were you ever? Can you see yourself ever being happy with him? Not "fine" or "OK" but HAPPY?


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## Justfine (Sep 17, 2012)

@Hellioness thanks for those questions. When it gets down to it, I feel that I would be living the rest of my life less than happy but content and comfortable. And I don't know if that would be enough. How do you feel now that you're not married to your first husband? And how long were you together?


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## Hellioness (Jul 6, 2012)

My first husband and I were together for nearly 9 years before the divorce. I was 15 when we got together so it started young. 
I am much happier now that we're no longer together. I'm married to the perfect man for me and honestly couldn't ask for more. Since we started out so young I honestly don't think I knew what I was doing and before I knew it I was married to him and having kids because I felt guilty telling him no. Yes, that was stupid of me, I was too young to know better and ended up making myself miserable.

It's hard to work past the guilt but you need to remind yourself that you are WORTHY of being happy and while it may hurt him now the pain will go away, and HE deserves happiness and someone who will love him as much as he loves them.


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

First off. You devastated him. But if you truly haven't cheated then at least you are a step ahead of the honesty game. 

Despite the fact that what you did is terrible. You need to show now that you are willing to do whatever it takes to divorce peacefully. After all, it sounds like he was 100% genuine in his feelings and happy with you. 

The most I can ask of my s2bxw is to divorce me quickly, even if she becomes uncomfortable or hurts financially due to co-dependency. If you have an ounce of respect for this man, be strong in your commitment but only settle for what is fair in the divorce and get it over with. Give him the chance to file and divorce peacefully according to laws where you reside.


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## Justfine (Sep 17, 2012)

Thanks @Hellioness and @hope4family for your responses. I have been talking with my husband, parents, and a trusted gf about this situation, and we've decided to give it the time it's worth before making such a huge decision. I hope that was the right thing to do. We are not making any decisions for several months, and giving it a fair shot at improvement before taking action. Above all, I don't want to make a mistake. I told him how I felt, and I don't think that can ever be a mistake. I don't think either of us wants the other to be unhappy, so we will reflect together and try to identify and assess issues on both ends.


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## anon2012 (Oct 2, 2012)

@hope4family - Sounds like someone's been burned.


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## Jason439 (Jul 16, 2012)

One bit of advice while you are giving it a final chance. Don't get pregnant. Kids will complicate it further and make it extremely harder to divorce if you decide to. 

Just my $0.02, as my W and I are in a bind of staying together for the sake of our kids. It's tearing me apart right now.

Good luck


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## Justfine (Sep 17, 2012)

@jason439 agree. We do not agree on the matter of kids anyway.


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## Justfine (Sep 17, 2012)

Update: we've had a couple big confrontations (me) and he left for his hometown, leaving me at our home taking care of the pets. And I like it. I like handling things without him around and I don't miss him being here. I know it's only been one week, but I don't feel the same way when he texts me that he loves and misses me. But I say it back anyway because I don't want to start anything while he's gone. I am trying to be nice, I don't want to screw him over in any way but I suppose its bordering on leading him on. I can tell he knows something's still wrong deep down, though.

I hate to imagine that I have "checked out" already, to use the lingo, but I don't wear my ring very often anymore. There is no one else in the picture, I just want to be me again.

Those are my feelings and it is torturous to wait it out but I will keep my word, because I don't want to make myself sorry in the future by something that may pass.

I can't help thinking that I've put my own husband in the friend zone.


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## ChknNoodleSoup (Oct 20, 2012)

Are you going to therapy? I highly suggest it as a first step in this. I kept over analyzing my relationship and you know what? Sometimes it's us that stab in our own way. Read some books about relationships. The 5 love languages, after the affair (it's an affair book but does a great job of detailing love and its phases/cycles etc), too bad to stay with too good to leave, how to be an adult in relationships. Etc. I'm not suggesting you aren't btw. The title is condescending but it's a good book. Anyway, don't drop any more bombshells on him and work this out with yourself and a therapist first then decide. Good luck! Btw, typing from phone, so I'm sorry about typos.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just,
Props to you for being honest with yourself and with him. 

Props to you for addressing this now before you make little people and find yourself in a completely different situation. 

Do not apologize. The glow of newness is based on physiology. It confuses things. 

If you have never had an O with him - that is a huge red flag. 

Being nice and kind and decent is necessary for a long term marriage. It is also true that a partner who is nice and ALSO sensitive (too easily hurt) is a recipe for disaster. Because is blocks unfiltered conversation. 

It becomes hard to imagine saying:
- umm babe - I'm not a man - so - well - I cannot actual reach the rapture in the 2.1 minutes you last during intercourse. or
- there are some good books on - oral sex - you might want to crack one open

And then there is the lack of friction. Not mean drunk type hateful combat. Playful - edgy - friction. The kind you can only find with someone who will spank you when you cross the line. And who can calmly look at you and shrug and walk away when you are being over the top difficult and sustain quiet indifference until you come to your senses and apologize. 

And that same person who is secure enough to ask forgiveness when they crossed the line. The person can look at you and tell if you are in a bad place or want some space. 

Go find that person. If you are already with him - great. And if not, move on before procreating...





Justfine said:


> We are in our mid-20s, married for 3 years. We have no kids but own a house. It never bothered me before, but now that things have settled down quite a bit, I have a nagging feeling about a missing "spark" in our marriage. I must have been swept off my feet by the excitement of being in a relationship, because I can never remember feeling butterflies for him. We get along fantastically, and we have similar tempos, so when we got engaged and married, it seemed just fine to me. Now, however, I am bothered so much by the possibility that I felt so flattered by his love and "went along" with the whole dating-engaged-marriage cycle without really soul searching.
> 
> I hate to be mean and hurt people's feelings, and I admitted last night that I loved him as a friend. It made me feel terrible and it made him feel even worse. I thought we should try an unofficial separation and see how we felt, but when he packed his stuff, the sight of him looking so devastated and the knowledge of how awful I made him feel changed my mind immediately. I apologized and said I did love him. I know that any kind of dragging it out (if it is a real issue and not just some sort of weird phase I'm going through) will hurt much more in the long run. However, I'm not committed enough to this concept to risk hurting him if I'm wrong about myself. And I am averse to dropping an anvil like this on his head because he means a lot to me. He is fairly a model husband - he loves to cook and clean, we both work and make the same salary, he is a responsible and attentive guy, albeit with some issues but no more than I have, and nothing truly horrific. So, on paper I have an absolute catch and this would come as a shock to anyone who knows us.
> 
> ...


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

Well at least OP has a comfortable Plan B to fall back on once she's tired of being used and dumped by "aloof bad boys".


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## rfAlaska (Jul 28, 2011)

Personally, I think you're on a collision course with an affair, if not physical then emotional. At some deep level your needs aren't being met and that doesn't bode well for your marriage.

I would stop saying I love you and I miss you. I don't think you mean it and you're lying. That will come back to haunt you on why you said it.

Marriage is about commitment - for a lifetime. If you can't be party to that, move on. The longer you're together, the more tangled the web becomes. You're young, you're three years in, you have no children. If you're going to get out, get out now before it gets really messy.

Stop saying things you don't mean - when the lie is uncovered, you'll both feel worse. Good luck.


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## conraddobler (Sep 26, 2012)

Wow, I feel the same way. My wife is pretty, kind, and overly accomodating....and I have fallen out of love with her. I have not had an affair although am attracted to someone else. My wife is convinced that I am having an affair. We went through a rough patch a few years ago and went to therapy. Thought things were better and had a baby. Now things are back to where we were. We have had talks that I don't feel I love her anymore. I feel utterly horrible and the thought of leaving her kills me I also love my baby (6mos). That said if I reconsile and say all is ok, I'm fairly certain I would be back in this quandry before too long. I think that I may have just chosen the wrong partner...and that is a tough pill to swallow


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## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

I believe my wife feels the same way as the OP. So it hurts as the other person who wants to make it work, but the first person just has no interest for whatever reason. 

At least in her case she doesn't say I love you or anything like that. She really doesn't say anything or respond to anything I do, so following divorce 180 rules I stopped doing anything. It didn't help or hurt, its just over. I have some idiot friends giving me bad advice, others giving me decent advice, etc. 

As an old fashioned guy 'for better or for worse, till death do us part' was absolutes but this is not true anymore. If one party has given up, well, its simply over.... 

good luck.


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## Pearl83 (Oct 26, 2012)

Justfine,
When I read your post I thought you were reading straight from my head and relationship. I am 30 yrs old and have been married for almost 3 years. I am in the same position as you except I did let it go the extra step and had an affair with a coworker. I have recently ended that so as to sort out my marriage without the influence of someone else. I do not want to be with this other person and for a while after ending it I thought I could reignite things with my husband. Though honestly I am still feeling the same. I also don't remember any butterflies. I loved him because he is extremely smart, ambitious, kind, and caring. He would do everything and anything for me. Though sometimes I see him losing himself in doing this. I never ask this of him, but he would be with me every second if he could. I on the other hand like my space. I wish he had more friends to hang out with. I feel smothered at times. But on the flip side I feel as though I should feel lucky to have someone who cares so deeply. Needless to say I feel aweful and guilty for the affair. But probably even more guilty for letting him put his whole self into a life with me when I can't reciprocate.


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## colotnk (Feb 3, 2012)

To me, love is a choice. I too had similar feelings about settling in earlier years of my marriage. My husband and I are the best of friends, have utmost respect for each other, work well as a team in most aspects, have great sex life. Together we've accomplished so much in a just a few years: a dream house, plenty of luxury items, financial stability for present and security for future and rising careers.

So what was missing? I didn't know for quite a long time until I matured a little more and fully understood who I am as a person and a woman. IC also helped a lot with soul searching. What was missing for me was all the dramas, the fights, the emotional ups and downs of a relationship. All of which I had wrongly mistaken as signs of 'love'. It was the insecurity of not knowing where my relationship was headed that gave me the butterflies feeling in the stomach. Because I was taught so by my parents' marriage and my own previous relationships.

I turned around. I decided to give all of my emotional self into the marriage. I made a conscious effort to be less selfish and did things that I know would make my husband happy just because. My husband recognized the effort and in turn did even more things to make me happy. Our marriage is better than ever and I love him more than I will ever love any man. And I know that it will just keep getting better over time. 

Just want to share my experience in case it might help someone. Please don't be too quick to throw away a perfectly good spouse and marriage just because you don't feel the 'spark'. Every situation is different and sometimes you need the 'spark' to be happy. But at least give it an honest try to improve the marriage before choosing to walk away.

What have helped me tremendously are a good counselor, the 5 love languages (to understand how much my husband loves me and how to show him love in his language), the 9 enneagram types (to understand myself and him better).

Good luck in whatever path you choose.


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## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

Its heartening to see there is hope for people who end up in the bind where everything seems fine but there is something missing. It does seem like you and your husband both wanted to build upon the foundation of the financial and other success you did have. 

My wife went through IC and has been having similar feelings for apparently a year and didn't really tell me to change, or at least I wasn't smart enough to hear it till about two months ago when it was I 'have to leave'. And at that point it was too late. I really believe I'm not mad at her for leaving. I'm mad at her for not leaving before -- when we could have gone through this whole process 9,10 months ago and at that point she was still considering staying together, as opposed to now where that is not an option. We could have tried counseling and maybe we'd end up where we are, but now her mind is set and she's had 10 months to block out any of the good things we have. 

So the moral of my story (if any) is that if you feel that emptiness but still feel there is something there, and you have a blockhead of a husband like I was, you should have the tough discussions early on. Because it will give you a chance to save the marriage, or the other option is to save time. 

PS I know for a lot of people this is further complicated by money or kids -- so its easy to say to broach divorce but more complicated when you are dependent on the other or have kids to deal with... but its probably not good for either the money or the kids to drag it on, either.


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## Bafuna (Aug 13, 2012)

''I think that I may have just chosen the wrong partner...and that is a tough pill to swallow''

I dont understand this marriage thing, I thought the reason why you make a vow '' Till death do us part'' is so that when you ''just feel like you're out of love'' or you ''chose the wrong partner'' there is something that stops you from packing your bags and going? Otherwise whats the point of marriage, is it not about taking a chance and commiting to something you arent sure how it will turn out but tying yourself to it none theless, lets just date and split, at this rate! Why bother with the vows??


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

You obviously loved this man a meager 3 years ago, so what has changed? Your description of him is that he is perfect, so it doesn’t appear that he has changed. This only leaves you in the relation, so what has changed your opinion? I have to be honest with you that you may have a delusional concept of love. What is love? Do you really think that the teenage girl feeling of butterflies in your tummy every time he walks into the room? That is not love that is infatuation. Novels and movie scripts are written with these sentiments, but they aren’t real, they are fairytales. I would suggest that you get individual counseling and explore some of these things and marriage counseling, if you think your husband is a keeper. 

In the meantime, QUIT LYIN. If you don’t love him, don’t say that you do. You don’t have to go of your way to hurt him, but I will tell you that you ultimately hurt him more by lying. Also don’t do that stupid I love you, but not in love with you, BS line. I have you some work to do, before you throw this relationship away. I say this for your own good, because I fear this will be a continued pattern for you. No matter what you decide, be sure to finish this relationship, before you start another.


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## Bafuna (Aug 13, 2012)

Guys when we made the 'vow' for better or worse, what do you think 'worse' was referring to. I find it hard to understand '' I think I just married the wrong person'', ''there is a missing spark'' 

Really?

Why not just date and not get married, I thought getting married was going a step further and saying I dont know what will happen but when it does I will stick by this person.

I understand infidelity, abuse issues etc, this I don't, NOT FOR WILLFULLY MARRIED people,why do you think the vows are worded the way they are?


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

Bafuna said:


> Guys when we made the 'vow' for better or worse, what do you think 'worse' was referring to. I find it hard to understand '' I think I just married the wrong person'', ''there is a missing spark''
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


Not everyone got married in a church..

Personally, I think "for better for worse" is outdated. I'm glad to be corrected.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

caladan said:


> Not everyone got married in a church..
> 
> Personally, I think "for better for worse" is outdated. I'm glad to be corrected.


WHAT!?

What kind of fcuked up human is going to stand there, at the altar (or wherever) and utter the lines "I promise to love you for better, but not for worse, and if you ever underwhelm me, or I get a bit bored, I will just leave you, for some guy that gives me butterflies in my stomach"

Marriage is dead in the water. Truly.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

The Cro-Magnon said:


> WHAT!?
> 
> What kind of fcuked up human is going to stand there, at the altar (or wherever) and utter the lines "I promise to love you for better, but not for worse, and if you ever underwhelm me, or I get a bit bored, I will just leave you, for some guy that gives me butterflies in my stomach"
> 
> Marriage is dead in the water. Truly.


??
C'mon, don't straw-man my post. I never said or even implied what you just posted.

The reality however is that marriage appears to be evolving rather quickly. The aspects of society that marriage was "created" to cater to are changing and one way or another, our marital beleifs and vows have to adapt to these realities.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

caladan said:


> ??
> C'mon, don't straw-man my post. I never said or even implied what you just posted.
> 
> The reality however is that marriage appears to be evolving rather quickly. The aspects of society that marriage was "created" to cater to are changing and one way or another, our marital beleifs and vows have to adapt to these realities.


LOL...print this out and put it in you wallet/purse then look at it in ten years...I have a hunch you will feel foolish...NOTHING ever changes when it comes to humans!!!...repackaged perhaps but CHANGE no...best wishes.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

cj9947 said:


> LOL...print this out and put it in you wallet/purse then look at it in ten years...I have a hunch you will feel foolish...NOTHING ever changes when it comes to humans!!!...repackaged perhaps but CHANGE no...best wishes.


Are you sure about this?

We've changed a whole lot within my short lifetime.

Ten years isn't a long time though - the changes I refer to are largely generational. Twenty perhaps??


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

Justfine said:


> We are in our mid-20s, married for 3 years. We have no kids but own a house. It never bothered me before, but now that things have settled down quite a bit, I have a nagging feeling about a missing "spark" in our marriage. I must have been swept off my feet by the excitement of being in a relationship, because I can never remember feeling butterflies for him. We get along fantastically, and we have similar tempos, so when we got engaged and married, it seemed just fine to me. Now, however, I am bothered so much by the possibility that I felt so flattered by his love and "went along" with the whole dating-engaged-marriage cycle without really soul searching.
> 
> I hate to be mean and hurt people's feelings, and I admitted last night that I loved him as a friend. It made me feel terrible and it made him feel even worse. I thought we should try an unofficial separation and see how we felt, but when he packed his stuff, the sight of him looking so devastated and the knowledge of how awful I made him feel changed my mind immediately. I apologized and said I did love him. I know that any kind of dragging it out (if it is a real issue and not just some sort of weird phase I'm going through) will hurt much more in the long run. However, I'm not committed enough to this concept to risk hurting him if I'm wrong about myself. And I am averse to dropping an anvil like this on his head because he means a lot to me. He is fairly a model husband - he loves to cook and clean, we both work and make the same salary, he is a responsible and attentive guy, albeit with some issues but no more than I have, and nothing truly horrific. So, on paper I have an absolute catch and this would come as a shock to anyone who knows us.
> 
> ...


When I was teenager I worked at an elderly retirement home for a summer. I got to meet some amazing people. People who shared important life lessons with me. One of those people was a 70+ year old woman named Olga Shultz. From time to time I would go to her room and have lunch with her. One day as I approached her room I heard her crying. It made me nervous to go in the room. She saw me; wiped her tears and invited me in. I asked why was she crying. She broke down in tears and made the most painful shriek. She exclaimed, "I was an ungrateful woman."

She proceeded to tell me the story of her first marriage engagement. She met a most wonderful man just before World War 2 but she ended the engagement before he left for the War because she told him that while she was a Methodist and could accept him as a Catholic she could NOT be buried in a Catholic cemetery. He was willing to accept her religion and even raise children Methodist but wanted his wife to be with him in life and death. So she let him go.

Fast forward approximately forty years, she read in the newspaper of his death and upcoming funeral services. She actually went to the church services. She saw his four adult children get up and tell of the wonderful man their father was. After that, no less than six WW2 veterans came up and and said how they would not be there if not for his efforts as a medic in the war. She told me she actually collapsed at the church when she realized what she traded for selfishness.

Olga has been dead now since 1983. Every time I think of her I hear some of her last words to me, "I would do anything to be buried in a Catholic cemetery to be with him, warn warn the ungrateful woman for me!"

If you decide to leave your husband, I truly wish that things work out for the best and you both live a happy and meaningful life.

If you decide to leave your husband and later learn you gave up a wonderful man for some feelings...please share Olga's story and maybe someday someone will benefit from Olga's pain.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

cj9947 said:


> When I was teenager I worked at an elderly retirement home for a summer. I got to meet some amazing people. People who shared important life lessons with me. One of those people was a 70+ year old woman named Olga Shultz. From time to time I would go to her room and have lunch with her. One day as I approached her room I heard her crying. It made me nervous to go in the room. She saw me; wiped her tears and invited me in. I asked why was she crying. She broke down in tears and made the most painful shriek. She exclaimed, "I was an ungrateful woman."
> 
> She proceeded to tell me the story of her first marriage engagement. She met a most wonderful man just before World War 2 but she ended the engagement before he left for the War because she told him that while she was a Methodist and could accept him as a Catholic she could NOT be buried in a Catholic cemetery. He was willing to accept her religion and even raise children Methodist but wanted his wife to be with him in life and death. So she let him go.
> 
> ...


Hindsight always makes things smell like a bed of roses. A good medic doesn't always make a good husband. Forgive me if I'm somewhat less than convinced about this.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

caladan said:


> Are you sure about this?
> 
> We've changed a whole lot within my short lifetime.
> 
> Ten years isn't a long time though - the changes I refer to are largely generational. Twenty perhaps??


Caladan,
Perhaps it's in how we quantify "a whole lot within my short lifetime." When I was younger I focused on the technological and cultural changes as my way of measuring how man has progressing. Yet, when I have scratched the surface of technological and cultural changes all I really find is a transfer of wealth. The individual human is left unchanged at his/her core.

Take for example the telephone, cell phones are a big change over the old corded phone. They are mobile and cool. Yet, are the excessive communications that they allow more intelligent or meaningful than what occurred on corded phones? In fact, I contend that today's technologically advanced phones have adversely affected spelling and grammar. Have you overheard cell phone calls in stores? I have and I hear an increased level of loneliness too.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

cj9947 said:


> Caladan,
> Perhaps it's in how we quantify "a whole lot within my short lifetime." When I was younger I focused on the technological and cultural changes as my way of measuring how man has progressing. Yet, when I have scratched the surface of technological and cultural changes all I really find is a transfer of wealth. The individual human is left unchanged at his/her core.
> 
> Take for example the telephone, cell phones are a big change over the old corded phone. They are mobile and cool. Yet, are the excessive communications that they allow more intelligent or meaningful than what occurred on corded phones? In fact, I contend that today's technologically advanced phones have adversely affected spelling and grammar. Have you overheard cell phone calls in stores? I have and I hear an increased level of loneliness too.


I'll accept - people are still lonely and that sort of thing. However, I was referring mainly to the social institutions in our society. Social attitudes, reaction to behaviour. That has changed a great deal. We're more accepting of "the other", of differences in lifestyle, sexual behaviour, hell a state in the US has recently legalized pot. 

People on the other hand are still pretty much the same, possibly a few pounds heavier than say 100 years ago


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