# What's the point of talking



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

This is how I feel talking to my husband about an issue goes...

*me holding up a black sharpie. "This is a black sharpie." 
My husband: no it's not.
Me: no it is. Look at it, feel it. Write with it. It's a black sharpie. 
My husband: no it's not.

The end.

I can't get anywhere discussing the issue I have with the black sharpie because he can't even admit that it even is a black sharpie.


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## Mollymolz (Jan 12, 2017)

LOL sorry, your post made me laugh because I have the same conversation with my husband. I try to talk with him and it always goes no where. 

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## Sarah1976 (Feb 4, 2017)

I just have the conversation to convey my own feelings anymore. There's no use in convincing him anyway if he just will justify a way to discount and dismiss what you're saying anyway. For me I just tell him that I see the pen as a black sharpie and that i get angry about sharpies so please leave them in the drawer next time. (Figuratively speaking)


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## Mollymolz (Jan 12, 2017)

Sarah1976 said:


> I just have the conversation to convey my own feelings anymore. There's no use in convincing him anyway if he just will justify a way to discount and dismiss what you're saying anyway. For me I just tell him that I see the pen as a black sharpie and that i get angry about sharpies so please leave them in the drawer next time. (Figuratively speaking)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Makes sense. There are only so many times you can put yourself out there before giving up entirely 

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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Sarah1976 said:


> I just have the conversation to convey my own feelings anymore. There's no use in convincing him anyway if he just will justify a way to discount and dismiss what you're saying anyway. For me I just tell him that I see the pen as a black sharpie and that i get angry about sharpies so please leave them in the drawer next time. (Figuratively speaking)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Good advice. I think the problem is I'm being just as stubborn as him. I take it personal, like it's a respect thing. Like this is a black marker, and if ur saying it's not, it's the same thing as you calling me a lair. Aaahhh so frustrating. I wish he can be a normal mature adult and just learn how to acknowledge, take responsibility, and apologize or make a plan to try to remember to put the marker in the drawer. To me, this is a husbands or a normal rational spouses job. 

Normal people: *me upset that the pen is not in the drawer* "I personally don't care about the marker, but I understand that it makes you upset. I should not have taken it out and left it on the couch. For now on, I'll be more aware of this and I'll do my best to not to leave it out." 

My husband: that's not a black sharpie. You cray.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Mollymolz said:


> Makes sense. There are only so many times you can put yourself out there before giving up entirely
> 
> Sent from my E2306 using Tapatalk




And that's my point. There is absolutely no point of me even talking to him. It drives me nutty.


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## lorikeet25 (Jun 22, 2016)

My husband is the same. It is so frustrating. Half of our conversations end with me telling him I don't know why I bother talking to him, and him acting confused. 
More and more I just don't bother.


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## Sarah1976 (Feb 4, 2017)

Right.. It took me forever to get to the point where I had to not try and let the focus of my sentence to even BE focused around his response at all but to be for the simple purpose of conveying my own emotions around the sharpie. I also have to remind myself that I have some sort of expectation in my head that he should respond. Logically this all looks good on paper. In reality we know damn well our spouse is being passive aggressive. Haha. It's true and normally they're controlling our emotions. Just do you, even in conversation. Trust me, it made my husband step back after a while and wonder why I no longer cared if he poked at me back by his lack of response. He even tried to ramp it up a bit.... I kept at it though. To be honest, passive aggressive is horrible ha


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## Mollymolz (Jan 12, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> And that's my point. There is absolutely no point of me even talking to him. It drives me nutty.


I'll bet. I know the feeling 

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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

He doesn't get that these stupid little things don't have to be fights, or arguments or big deals. He makes them a big deal when he denies, makes excuses or inadvertently calls me a lair.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

The reason why people do this is pride.

which seeks to gain an advantage in the power balance in the relationship.

and you're right, it does also have to do with respect.
he looks down on you, not an equal.

in cave man terms it goes something like this; "I want the power and control in this
relationship, so I will spar with you every chance we get. I won't let you win and
think your as good as me". Thats why an inane argument is still important.

Its not about whats really true, it's about winning, or the perception of winning.

by the way; he knows it's a sharpie.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> This is how I feel talking to my husband about an issue goes...
> 
> *me holding up a black sharpie. "This is a black sharpie."
> My husband: no it's not.
> ...


*Sounds greatly like a "discussion" with my RSXW! 

Only she'd still contend that it was not a black sharpie, and would always add her little syllogism that made me sick to my stomach to hear, "Oh think outside of the box!"

That skank absolutely had to be "right" about everything! 

It must have been her money!*


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> He doesn't get that these stupid little things don't have to be fights, or arguments or big deals. He makes them a big deal when he denies, makes excuses or inadvertently calls me a lair.


It's called ad hominem where you attack the person making a point instead of discussing the topic in question.You can see it in lots of everyday occurrences,people discussing a certain topic and one of them going out of their way to belittle,insult or even character assassinate the other person in the discussion.Mr Trump is a typical example.It also stretches to complete denial i.e. it is not a black sharpie.The worst thing you can do is to entertain this crap by asking him if it is not a sharpie then what is it because you are playing his game then and justifying his bullsiht.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I don't get why they keep this up though. Like don't you want a happy wife and a happy marriage? He acts like I love to fight, but it's him who refuses to address any issue. 
I am not backing down this time. It's a stupid little thing, but that's not the point Bc how we address an issue is the real point I am trying to make to him. So he thinks it's about this stupid "black sharpie" but it's not, it's about respect, conflict resolution, and dealing with issues as they come in a respectful way. 
It's been 3 days. I am not MAD or fighting with him, I am trying to talk through this issue and he f*cks it up by denying, making excuses, not acknowledging etc. then I just say to him, there is no point to talking to you because it goes no where. When you want to actually be a mature adult and address this issue, we can talk. He has been sleeping in the spare room for 3 days. It's like battle of the stubbornness. He knows what he should say, he knows what I want him to say, but he refuses to back down. It's crazy how immature he is being.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

I think we need to see the sharpie before we bash the husband! What if it's a red carayon??


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

You: "These are divorce papers."


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> you: "these are divorce papers."


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Ya know, I'd rather have one that "debates" than one who lies like a rug. 

exH "The sky is blue."

Me *opens window to check*


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

In my home.......I am THAT MAN. That man that you claim does not listen to you, does not listen to reason. That man who downplays your every word, downplays your logic.........your BEING.

Why is this? 

Yes, it is the classic male/female dynamic, the Men from Mars, Women from Venus...conflict, for loss of a better word.

In my case, when my wife wants to say something she prefaces it with, "Now listen carefully, what I am going to say is important". She says this very, very loudly with an angry tone. Not once in a while, but most of the time. I am no fool. I know that she is frustrated. I put down what I am doing and look at her, giving her my attention.

She is a nervous mess, has always been this way. To say that she is neurotic is an understatement. 

For most of my home life I was very calm and softspoken. I am very easy going. As I have aged and matured, I admit I am less patient. I hate being yelled at. Yelled at over nothing. Getting crumbs on the counter or floor, "kinda stuff".

When she gets too far out of joint, I firmly put her in her place. I have buttons, she readily pushes them. When I get angry she grins from ear-to-ear. Not a friendly grin...this!

I know that she wants to engage me, that she wants me to participate in mundane activities. 

My wife wears her heart on her sleeve, she cannot or will not control her emotions. I do not get excited by the immature actions of our little life sphere.

My wife? Everything that everyone does or says is a calamity. It becomes her new topic or "sore point". The new sore point that I must acknowledge, rub away. 

Like most women, she wants an ear to listen to her woes and rants. She DOES NOT want advice. Advice to her [and most women] is anathema to them. Advice equals criticism of them and their reaction/response to their latest tragedy.

Wives turn men off with this behavior. Husbands close their ears, wives closes their thighs and the War of the Roses, continues. 

Solution: wives need to say whats on their minds, what they are feeling and do so calmly. When the husbands no longer feel threatened he may actually listen. Will he offer advice? Yes, he will. Men never learn, women never let up.

I love to hold my wife in my arms. I am often forced to hold her at arms length, until her quivering heart "do "slow down, the arms stop twitching and her legs bend not [rapidly]at the knee. Ah, those knees can be deadly.

I have told her if she did not have a razor sharp tongue, a bludgeoning personality, she could own the world.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I feel like men, or at least my husband can go through life with no complaints. He doesn't care if he comes home to a garbage filled house. He doesn't care if he comes home to no food. He will never complain to me. Which is kind of annoying. I require way more than he does to be happy. I need a clean space. I love a good relationship. A good relationship to me is hanging out, talking, connecting. To him a good relationship is no fighting. 

So therefore I have a lot more "complaints" and unhappiness than he does. Does that mean I'm the bad one is the marriage because I'm full of "complaints"? Well I'm sure to him I am. If you get married you have a responsibilities. He wants to live like 2 separate people in one house and call it marriage. He thinks if I'm unhappy or have issues that it's my problem, not his because he is fine and happy.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

All I want is for him to learn how to respectfully deal with a conflict. 
Whether it's real or a perceived conflict isn't the point. If your spouse takes the time and energy to bring something up, it should be taken seriously. Not inadvertently saying no, ur a lair, your making this up, your crazy and your a drama queen. I want my thoughts and feelings to matter even if they are bullsh*t.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Sounds greatly like a "discussion" with my RSXW!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




????


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I feel like men, or at least my husband can go through life with no complaints. He doesn't care if he comes home to a garbage filled house. He doesn't care if he comes home to no food. He will never complain to me. Which is kind of annoying. I require way more than he does to be happy. I need a clean space. I love a good relationship. A good relationship to me is hanging out, talking, connecting. To him a good relationship is no fighting.
> 
> So therefore I have a lot more "complaints" and unhappiness than he does. Does that mean I'm the bad one is the marriage because I'm full of "complaints"? Well I'm sure to him I am. If you get married you have a responsibilities. He wants to live like 2 separate people in one house and call it marriage. He thinks if I'm unhappy or have issues that it's my problem, not his because he is fine and happy.


Read my "afore" post.

You want connect and talk? Do some of those male things that he likes to do. Spend time with him when he is in his element. All outdoor activities, run, bike, swim, golf, go to games, ski, water ski, jet ski, ice skate, roller skate, fish, hike, scuba dive, explore, dune buggy or motor cycle riding....whatever. 

And hopefully, he reciprocates with doing some of the things [together] that you enjoy.

Oh, I forgot, modern Millennial Professional Men do not do many of these things. Maybe, golf and skiing and going to sporting events.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> ????


*Meaning that she would always bend over backwards just to be difficult or different from everybody else!*


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## prunus (Oct 29, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> Read my "afore" post.
> 
> You want connect and talk? Do some of those male things that he likes to do. Spend time with him when he is in his element. All outdoor activities, run, bike, swim, golf, go to games, ski, water ski, jet ski, ice skate, roller skate, fish, hike, scuba dive, explore, dune buggy or motor cycle riding....whatever.
> 
> ...


Or, maybe he won't. Maybe he's self centered and thinks the world revolves around him and you are there just to please him. But, maybe he will.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Cooper said:


> I think we need to see the sharpie before we bash the husband! What if it's a red carayon??




The problem is we don't spend enough time together. He's a resident and he works incredibly hard, impossibly long hours so he is chronically stressed and sleep deprived. I totally get this, I am not a terrible ***** wife. However I know that he works more than he really has to but that's another point. 

The problem is that we don't spend a lot of time together, and the time that we do spend together has become increasingly unpleasant. I get that I don't have a lot of time with him so my thing is let's Focus on having quality time when we are actually together. I feel like I'm asking very little from him.

Recently, The last few weeks he has been coming home at 9 PM every single day. He walks in all bright Eyed bushytailed and usually on the phone talking to either a friend his parents or the hospital. And this has become our routine... he hangs up the phone, sits on the couch and we start to talk. I start telling him something and he starts to fall asleep while I'm talking to him. I wake him up and continue. I legit have to always wake him up, it's awkward. And he responds to my stories like wow, that's crazy. Every time because he's not really listening. Then he falls sleep on the couch until he goes to bed. The problem is, if the hospital calls or his parents call he wake up and is able to have a fully functional conversation with them. 
All I want is to have a 20 minute conversation with him a day. He can do it with other people why not with me. So... the other day the same thing happens. I wanted to tell him a story that was important to me. He came home at 9, was on the phone till 930. Came to sit down, and we started talking. And while I'm talking I see his eyes close and he starts leaning. I tap him on the shoulder and I say babe and he jumps up and says I'm listening!! All mad like I'm crazy. I continue with my story and his eyes start to close. I stop talking to see if he notices and he doesn't. I tap him on the shoulder and he says I'm listening!! And he get all mad and tries to reiterate what I was saying but he's not even close. But he's too stubborn to admit it. I say I'll tel you the story later when your more awake. And he gets mad and says he is awake, and he wants to hear it now and he is listening. So I start to repeat the story again and his eyes close and he's laying down at this point. And i just stop and say... babe ur eyes are closed, your tired and your sleeping it's ok. And he gets super mad and offended and is like no there not! I'm listening. Then we go back and forth about whether his eyes are closed or not. And I tel him, I'm looking right at you, I think I know if your eyes are closed or not. But he just denies it and gets mad Bc "he wanted to hear the story". 
I know it's stupid. But it drives me crazy Bc he can't just be like, I'm sorry I'm exhausted please tell me tomorrow when I'm more awake. Instead he wants to ask like I'm crazy and out of line and I'm lying because he is totally fine and is listening. 

The black sharpie is whether his eyes are closed or open. It's so dumb. We are on day 3 and he is fighting with me not to admit that his eyes were closed even though I was looking right at him. The problem is... he wants to act like it's me. Im the problem because he was clearly awake and listening. It's beyond stupid and immature. But we can't address the real issue if he can't admit that he wasn't practically sleeping.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> Read my "afore" post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is hilarious to me. I would die to do anything one of those things with him. I would love just to have an hour a day with him.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

It looks like a dark brown Sharpie to me. Just saying... Oh, and there are counterfeit Sharpies. How do you know for sure it's a "Sharpie"? 

I see this behavior from my kids a lot. No matter what I say, they have to question it. It's normal for a teenager. Not so much for an adult. 

The big question is, has your relationship always been this way, or is it relatively new? Does he do this with others (family, friends) or just you? 

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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Katie, what's your situation right now? Are you working? Studying? How often do you see people outside the marriage, like friends and family? What's your day to day like?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm working part time, while studying for my boards. I don't often see friends or family. 

I get what your getting at. But that doesn't excuse my husbands immature behavior.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

If not a black sharpie, what does he believe it is and why is it so important that it causes you to not let go?

Yes, I have read why you feel it is important, but why are you allowing it to dominate, simply because you want it?

This desire constantly places you into horrible frustration and you give him control every time you approach to talk about it because you keep coming back like a yo-yo on a string. Yes, you may sit at the end and spin wildly for a short time but your desire is like a flick of the wrist to bring it back to the hand... his hand.

When you get to the end... stop spinning and let the unmindful energy end.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> Ya know, I'd rather have one that "debates" than one who lies like a rug.
> 
> exH "The sky is blue."
> 
> Me *opens window to check*


Could you not just have looked out the window.lol.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> If not a black sharpie, what does he believe it is and why is it so important that it causes you to not let go?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




He knows it's a sharpie. He is denying it as a way to not be "guilty" or "wrong". He would rather blatantly lie, fight forever, and essentially call me a lair then admit he is "wrong". Of course it's not about Right or wrong but what's best for the relationship, but he sees it as right and wrong. 

It's not about the sharpie. It's about the fact that he is a neglectful husband. But he won't admit it or try to improve because he wants to pretend and act like he's not neglecting me. Aka I wasn't sleeping I was paying attention therefore I am not guilt of being a neglectful husband.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> However I know that he works more than he really has to but that's another point.
> 
> .




No. That is the MAIN point. Maybe he just doesn't WANT to spend more time with you. 

He would rather do what he does than be with you. 

All your threads have a common theme. You are trying to change him. C'mon Katie. You have been here long enough to know you can't do that. 

You keep making excuses for him - he is overworked, he is stressed. 

No. He is being himself. He is doing what he wants. You just don't like it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Katie,

I like you. You sometimes make me laugh really hard. Not at you. With you. 

It's also true that I'm going to try to help, using your own analogy. 

You want to be married to a pencil. Btw - pencils are great - they have erasers and you can write very fine lines with the point or hold them tilted and get a broad, lighter stroke. 

But your husband - K2 - is a sharpie. He isn't a pencil. Doesn't want to be one and won't EVER be one. 






katiecrna said:


> This is how I feel talking to my husband about an issue goes...
> 
> *me holding up a black sharpie. "This is a black sharpie."
> My husband: no it's not.
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Katie,
> 
> I like you. You sometimes make me laugh really hard. Not at you. With you.
> 
> ...


QFT.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> No. That is the MAIN point. Maybe he just doesn't WANT to spend more time with you.
> 
> He would rather do what he does than be with you.
> 
> ...




It's just hard for me to accept this because this is NEWish behavior. If he was always like this than I would agree with you. We have had a great marriage for many more years than we haven't had a good marriage. I feel like the effort to try to get back there is worth it.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I just don't get his Point of view. He wants his cake and eats it too? 
I just posted about my friends affair which started a huge debate because I sympathized with her. But what do men like this expect? It doesn't make sense. If you want a marriage, you need to be a husband.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> The worst thing you can do is to entertain this crap by asking him if it is not a sharpie then what is it because you are playing his game then and justifying his bullsiht.


Wow i wouldve done this very thing. I learned something today, thanks.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Sometimes there is such a disconnect between couples it's as plain as a large black sharpie!

I agree with whoeverything said he just doesn't want to spend time with you. You are no longer the focus of his life, that's certainly a sad realization.

Why does he argue about obviously insignificant things? I would guess you have called him to the carpet so many times on so many things his knee jerk reaction is defensive. It's not about being right or wrong, his view is to argue every point because he doesn't want to admit he is wrong or neglectful. It becomes a power struggle and he does not intend to lose.

As for stories.....guys like the short version, women like the looong version. Give him the short version, then when he falls asleep take that black sharpie and draw a mustache on his face!


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

@Andy1001 but I'm not entertaining it. I'm telling him what happened and he's telling me it didn't happen. I told him saying it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't happen. I tell him it happened, and it's not a debate. And I continue on to address the issue but he then denies everything because "it didn't happen". 

It's like a crazy, ridiculous, embarrassing conversation that I am having with my adult brilliant husband. This is why PA people drive people crazy. Because they don't back down on their ridiculousness.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I just don't get his Point of view. He wants his cake and eats it too?
> I just posted about my friends affair which started a huge debate because I sympathized with her. But what do men like this expect? It doesn't make sense. If you want a marriage, you need to be a husband.


I was one of the people disagreeing with you about your friends affair.But I agree with you on this point,if he wants to be a married man then he has to behave like a husband.I started reading stories and posting on this forum about seven months ago and I have learned a lot.There are some very knowledgeable people giving their advice free of charge and the most important thing I have learned is relationships are like machines,if they get regular maintenance and attention they will normally work just fine,if they are neglected they will eventually fail.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> @Andy1001 but I'm not entertaining it. I'm telling him what happened and he's telling me it didn't happen. I told him saying it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't happen. I tell him it happened, and it's not a debate. And I continue on to address the issue but he then denies everything because "it didn't happen".
> 
> It's like a crazy, ridiculous, embarrassing conversation that I am having with my adult brilliant husband. This is why PA people drive people crazy. Because they don't back down on their ridiculousness.


I feel your pain. It's crazy making. You know his eyes were closed, you saw it with YOUR own eyes, and he is telling you you didn't experience that.

This is how he is. It's not going to change. How can you respect a partner who does this to you?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I feel your pain. It's crazy making. You know his eyes were closed, you saw it with YOUR own eyes, and he is telling you you didn't experience that.
> 
> This is how he is. It's not going to change. How can you respect a partner who does this to you?




Because I know that he doesn't mean it. He's just retarded. Like honestly. He has a good heart. But like another poster said, it's a knee jerk reaction to deny. He has been like this he whole life. He HATES conflict and was taught from childhood to avoid and deny to escape them. That's why I'm still with him. 

His parents are the same way. They will never admit they are ever wrong. They rug sweep all their issues and pretend they don't exist. He has never seen normal conflict resolution. They have so much pride and they think admitting your mistakes or your wrong means... your a bad person or something. My husband keeps telling me, you know I'm not a bad person. And I keep telling him of course your not. But good people make mistakes and it's ok. It's ok to make mistakes it's not that serious. 

I just think he needs the correct tools and problem solving skills and this will help us so much. Maybe I'm just naïve. Who knows.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> He knows it's a sharpie. He is denying it as a way to not be "guilty" or "wrong". He would rather blatantly lie, fight forever, and essentially call me a lair then admit he is "wrong". Of course it's not about Right or wrong but what's best for the relationship, but he sees it as right and wrong.
> 
> It's not about the sharpie. It's about the fact that he is a neglectful husband. But he won't admit it or try to improve because he wants to pretend and act like he's not neglecting me. Aka I wasn't sleeping I was paying attention therefore I am not guilt of being a neglectful husband.


I do understand it's not about a "Sharpie"... I was using your example as a generality. 

I agree with others, you want something you cannot have or make different in the vision you desire... you have two choices, change your landscapes or change your eyes.

You have so much ability to see here, blinders are always attached to reins...


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## Sarah1976 (Feb 4, 2017)

I'm listening to "Deal Breakers" by Bethany Marshall on audible. It is great


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## Sarah1976 (Feb 4, 2017)

I'm suggesting it...


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> Because I know that he doesn't mean it. He's just retarded. Like honestly. He has a good heart. But like another poster said, it's a knee jerk reaction to deny. He has been like this he whole life. He HATES conflict and was taught from childhood to avoid and deny to escape them. That's why I'm still with him.
> 
> His parents are the same way. They will never admit they are ever wrong. They rug sweep all their issues and pretend they don't exist. He has never seen normal conflict resolution. They have so much pride and they think admitting your mistakes or your wrong means... your a bad person or something. My husband keeps telling me, you know I'm not a bad person. And I keep telling him of course your not. But good people make mistakes and it's ok. It's ok to make mistakes it's not that serious.
> 
> I just think he needs the correct tools and problem solving skills and this will help us so much. Maybe I'm just naïve. Who knows.




Ok. Keep thinking you can change him.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Maybe he just doesn't think black sharpies matter.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > I feel your pain. It's crazy making. You know his eyes were closed, you saw it with YOUR own eyes, and he is telling you you didn't experience that.
> ...


But he does mean it. He isn't kidding around with you and joking when he tells you his eyes were open. Even though he knows it's not true, he's saying it. He's presenting it as his truth.

This will not change unless he decides he wants to stop lying in these situations. If he were capable of interacting another way, he would.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> I'm working part time, while studying for my boards. I don't often see friends or family.
> 
> I get what your getting at. But that doesn't excuse my husbands immature behavior.


I'm not excusing your husband. But I think, maybe it's best if you focus on you. Meet some friends, go to the gym, join some fun classes (dancing, cooking, whatever), start a new hobby. Detach a little and stop focusing on your husband so much. He may see you being happy and positive, and naturally gravitate towards you. His entire day is stressful, and while not fair he also associates you as just another stress factor. So he avoids you entirely. 

Residency is tough on a marriage. My best friend is married to a dentist and they started dating in college. She went through residency too and it was tough. Her husband was always on call and never home. But they made it through and have a strong marriage now, started a family. It's important to be patient but don't lose yourself either. Focus on you and being happy. Your husband might naturally find himself drawn to your positive energy and get on board.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> This is how I feel talking to my husband about an issue goes...
> 
> *me holding up a black sharpie. "This is a black sharpie."
> My husband: no it's not.
> ...



Men are less emotional and stoic compared to the ladies. That means when you need to really talk and have that emotional release, most guys would find that too much and I am the same way with Mrs.CuddleBug.

I am more logical, get it done, don't put it off and a pen to me is a pen. Mrs.CuddleBug adds her emotional color to situations making them more complicated than they really are.

So she gets together with her female friends, coworkers and sister, mom, to talk and it works.

It's like your hubby telling you, quit being so emotional and needing to talk.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Serious question: If your husband refuses to validate you all, why not just divorce him and find someone else who knows how to validate you? My husband barely even speaks and yet he can validate me. 5 years of being married to me taught him how to. If your husbands are really as stupid or as heartless as you say, in all seriousness you shouldn't be with them.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Serious question: If your husband refuses to validate you all, why not just divorce him and find someone else who knows how to validate you? My husband barely even speaks and yet he can validate me. 5 years of being married to me taught him how to. If your husbands are really as stupid or as heartless as you say, in all seriousness you shouldn't be with them.



First off it's not that simple. Secondly, you cant go off divorcing people left and right when they don't do something you want. My husband and I have been together for 15 years. We've had a good relationship except these last 2-3 years. He is finished with his 6 year residency in a few months. 

I believe there is a time to get divorced. But right now I am not there. I am not ready to give up on my marriage.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Maybe he just doesn't think black sharpies matter.


You're on form today Blue.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

So apparently my husband came to bed last night and I told him... what makes you think you can sleep here! And apparently I was nasty. 
He just told me this. I have no memory of this happening at all. But I 100% believe that it happened. I did not think for a second that he would make that up. 
So I just used that to prove my point of him being disrespectful by not believing me. He seems to get it. He still feels like he wasn't sleeping but he gets that just because he feels he wasn't doesn't mean he wasn't. I swear it's like talking to a toddler. 
I made my point by showing the difference between our interactions. I didn't deny what he told me I said. I said oh sh*t I was sleeping I don't remember that at all, I'm sorry. Conversation lasted 2 mins. Him... going on 4 days and he finally admitted that he shouldn't of denied it. 4 days of not talking and sleeping in the same bed vs 2 mins all for admitting something, not denying something happened, and saying sorry.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Maybe he is TIRED. 

You are taking it personally, like he is doing something TO YOU. Maybe he is just tired. Maybe he would LIKE to hear about your day, and maybe he feels like less than a husband when he nods off during your story, and maybe he is embarassed about that. And maybe, when you go on and on about him not listening to your story it changes the whole dynamic of him "wanting" to listen in the first place. 

I refuse to argue about stupid things that don't matter. I won't argue about the color of the sky, or whether the pen is a sharpie. I don't care what you call it, call it what ever you want. I won't spend the energy arguing about nonsense. Even if I know I am right, or you can just BE right...I don't care. It doesn't mean I don't care about you, it means I really, really don't care about that issue. IF you go on about it, I think YOU have a problem....and no, I do not have to own your problem. 

I'm not understanding why you can't just get by during this residency. Why can't you let things go for now, focus on yourself and your studies and bide your time. It's like you are constantly finding things to resent him for. And the digs and the nagging are probably building resentment in him too. 

I think I'd be supportive and nurturing during this stressful time. If he wants to just work, sleep and jog...so be it. I'd be his rock for now, taking care of things....and bet that in our future, he would do the same for me. I'd focus on my studies...I'd entertain myself, and I'd be thankful for this effort that we are able to invest in our future.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> This is hilarious to me. I would die to do anything one of those things with him. I would love just to have an hour a day with him.


And there it is. You are fair. You are loving. You are pliable.

And he is too tired. Tired of you?

Sorry. I wish you the best. 

I hope after he finishes his residency, he will return to his senses. At the moment he is immersed in his job. Over his head with patients. And he is surrounded by status hungry, horny nurses. He knows his pecking order ranking. My wife works in a large hospital. She has seen it all.

Hopefully, he can land a small shared practice. If he goes in with one of the big hospitals, they will work him to death. Being in a specialty is less hours, though what[?] four more years of training?

His time will be taken up by his career for another 5 years or more.

Can you wait that long? It seems that there is little indication that he will get better?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> First off it's not that simple. Secondly, you cant go off divorcing people left and right when they don't do something you want. My husband and I have been together for 15 years. We've had a good relationship except these last 2-3 years. He is finished with his 6 year residency in a few months.
> 
> I believe there is a time to get divorced. But right now I am not there. I am not ready to give up on my marriage.


If my husband spoke to me the way yours does to you for 3 straight years, I'd be gone. I believe love conquers all, but what you have isn't love anymore. I can understand staying with a man for the money, if he is soon to be rich and successful. It's hard being a woman in this world, and a pretty safe ticket to prosperity is to net a wealthy man. 

That was my plan for the future as a teenager, before I fell in love and found something better than just money. If you do stay with him for the money- if you stay with him at all- be ready to resign yourself to a loveless existence.


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## prunus (Oct 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> But he does mean it. He isn't kidding around with you and joking when he tells you his eyes were open. Even though he knows it's not true, he's saying it. He's presenting it as his truth.
> 
> This will not change unless he decides he wants to stop lying in these situations. If he were capable of interacting another way, he would.


:iagree:

Your husband and my ex could be twins! It doesn't change and you nagging him will only make it worse. Time to pull a 180!


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

You must be a Sharpie, cuz you seem Ultra Fine. 

😏


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Haiku said:


> You must be a Sharpie, cuz you seem Ultra Fine.




Nothing wrong with your eyes


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Andy1001 said:


> It's called ad hominem where you attack the person making a point instead of discussing the topic in question.You can see it in lots of everyday occurrences,people discussing a certain topic and one of them going out of their way to belittle,insult or even character assassinate the other person in the discussion.Mr Trump is a typical example.It also stretches to complete denial i.e. it is not a black sharpie.The worst thing you can do is to entertain this crap by asking him if it is not a sharpie then what is it because you are playing his game then and justifying his bullsiht.


Ad hominem attacks are indeed frequently used during discussions/debates/arguments, but the Black Sharpie example is not one of them, nor is the "my eyes weren't closed" conflict that @katiecrna cites.

If she really wants to make progress, then asking "if it's not a black sharpie, what is it?", is indeed the way to proceed, as it offers respect to the alternative opinion, and avoids being an attack that will raise defensive emotions (as long as it is said in a non-confrontational manner). It's not "playing his game" but rather is probably the best way to engage him seriously. It may not be fruitful, but that's a different issue.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

katiecrna said:


> I just don't get his Point of view. He wants his cake and eats it too?
> I just posted about my friends affair which started a huge debate because I sympathized with her. But what do men like this expect? It doesn't make sense. If you want a marriage, you need to be a husband.



I'm going to go out on a limb here, and quite frankly, I could well be way off base because I really don't know anything about you or you husband. (What can you really know about people online anyway?)

However, through the nature of my career, I work every day with doctors, nurses, etc., and am intimately involved in their lives outside of work as well. (I assume you are a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist by your screen name, and you state your husband is a resident). I've been around a long time, and I suspect I am probably older than the majority of the people on this board (the 1968 in my screen name is NOT when I was born, but rather when some personal events happened to me).

I have seen this kind of dynamic before. The executive summary is, based on my prior experiences with people, I think the odds are stacked against your marriage, and if you don't have children together, you may wish to assess whether it is better to cut your losses now.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Sarah1976 said:


> I just have the conversation to convey my own feelings anymore. There's no use in convincing him anyway if he just will justify a way to discount and dismiss what you're saying anyway. For me I just tell him that I see the pen as a black sharpie and that i get angry about sharpies so please leave them in the drawer next time. (Figuratively speaking)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You're on the right track. Conversations to "convince" anybody of anything are almost pointless - leave them to the politicians and advertisers.

The most important thing to convey to someone you love is just what you said - how you feel. Whether good or bad.

In fact, in lots of studies of couples with communications problems, this turns out to be the primary one - lack of expressing feelings - from both. Often because years of arguing have left both people with the sense that they are putting themselves at risk if they express their feelings - so they hide them and resort to simply trying to "convince" (aka change someone) the other person.


Keep up the good work!


DD


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

@katiecrna, all I can say is hang on tight for the ride that is coming. And yes, it has been this way for your entire marriage. It was just more subtle and you didn't know what to call it. Now he doesn't have to be subtle because he knows you will take it. 

I'm going to say this one last time. HE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE and you are going to waste the best years of your life hoping he will.

How is the new car by the way? You know the one that he said he wasn't going to buy? You really need IC because you are clearly not getting it. There are several of us who have lived it for decades that are divorced because of it. In case you didn't hear me the first time, HE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE because he is happy with the way things are. And why wouldn't he be?

ETA: Instead of worrying why he is how he is, you should worry more about why you are the way you are. Change starts with you.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Sometimes it is the way you say things that makes a man push back. There is always two sides to every story. I doubt that it is as black and white as you say. Only an idiot would deny what his eyes can see, so the example you give does not ring true to me. If you hold up a spoon and he says it is not a spoon, divorce him immediately since there is something wrong with him so let's hear a real life example. Please.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Vinnydee said:


> Sometimes it is the way you say things that makes a man push back. There is always two sides to every story. I doubt that it is as black and white as you say. Only an idiot would deny what his eyes can see, so the example you give does not ring true to me. If you hold up a spoon and he says it is not a spoon, divorce him immediately since there is something wrong with him so let's hear a real life example. Please.




I gave the example above. Please read.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

I find the best way to make my husband listen to me is to just become a mute!
A little while later....
"What are you thinking?" 
"Can I do something to help you?"
Then he listens. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@katiecrna you come off as a stubborn woman who is probably browbeating her H. You also aren't being honest IMO - you say you want him to take responsibility, but in fact, you want him to see things your way, accept then your way, acknowledge it, and tell you you're right. You want to be married to a women.

I saw your intractable response to multiple people expressing an alternate viewpoint to you on your cheating married friend's thread. You simple think everyone else is wrong.

I'm a pretty black and white guy but I believe you let your stubbornness make you even more inflexible.

Men need to be respected. These responses of yours are not respectful. Men need to be admired. Constantly telling a man he's wrong shows no admiration. Many men need cave time just to decompress. You DEMANDING he talk about sharpies when he's clearly exhausted - just because he gave other people time and you didn't get any - is just a bad idea that is designed to fail.

I've used some harsh direct phrases. But this is your marriage and you're here for advice so there it is. You also seem like a nice person and a good person, but these stubborn and demanding aspects of your behavior are getting in the way of your relationship


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

You want this guy - I don't know of any guy who could sit through this conversation

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...FORM=VIRE&qpvt=its+not+about+the+nail&PC=APPL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I appreciate your honest opinion @TheTruthHurts

I do think I am stubborn. But I also view some things in black and white... with clear boundaries. There is a way to do something and there is a way not to do something if that makes sense. Like what I think is common sense, common courtesy my husband apparently doesn't. I don't know... it's hard to explain. But when I see him do certain things, I'm blown away by the rudeness and what I thought was common courtesy so I react strongly. 
I do have strong reactions to some behavior because I think certain things should be a certain way. Things that I think are common sense. I.e. Stand and take your hat off for the national anthem. To me that's common sense and respect. I would have a strong reaction if I saw someone not do that.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> I appreciate your honest opinion @TheTruthHurts
> 
> I do think I am stubborn. But I also view some things in black and white... with clear boundaries. There is a way to do something and there is a way not to do something if that makes sense. Like what I think is common sense, common courtesy my husband apparently doesn't. I don't know... it's hard to explain. But when I see him do certain things, I'm blown away by the rudeness and what I thought was common courtesy so I react strongly.
> I do have strong reactions to some behavior because I think certain things should be a certain way. Things that I think are common sense. I.e. Stand and take your hat off for the national anthem. To me that's common sense and respect. I would have a strong reaction if I saw someone not do that.




I tend to stand etc for the national anthem but that's a sign of respect. Not everyone respects the flag that way and I don't expect them to pretend to. I don't care if someone else has different opinions or values - to each his own


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JoleighS (Feb 6, 2017)

I feel the same way when talking to my boyfriend. What he says goes. No matter what. He is always right. Even if I have proof otherwise. Doesn't matter. My opinions are not important either. So, I can definitely empathize. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

JoleighS said:


> I feel the same way when talking to my boyfriend. What he says goes. No matter what. He is always right. Even if I have proof otherwise. Doesn't matter. My opinions are not important either. So, I can definitely empathize.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




You can do much better. Why is he your boyfriend?


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## JoleighS (Feb 6, 2017)

blueinbr said:


> You can do much better. Why is he your boyfriend?




Reevaluating our relationship. It's the reason I ended up on here. Seeking others who have had similar experiences to mine. Wanted to see how others handle certain situations within their relationships. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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