# I just found out. I am crushed.



## Andrew2011

I just discovered that my wife of 10 months is having an affair with her ex-boyfriend -- the boyfriend she had before me. I am crushed. I am trying to recover my mental balance to do the right thing from here -- whatever that is. Any perspectives would be appreciated.

Our story was, I thought, almost a fairy tale -- now with a nightmarish twist to it.

I am 49, a business executive, married once when I was (too) young, no kids. Almost always have had positive relationships with women. She is 38, in the medical field, and has never been married, although had one long-term cohabitation with a man who was in graduate school with her.

I met her 2.5 years ago, literally by accident. I was working in her city (across the country from my own) sent by my company on a lengthy assignment, when I had a minor incident that required medical attention. I visited her clinic a few times and, through a series of happenstances (including bumping into her at the café next door), got to know her very well. She is intelligent, charming, and attractive. I fell for her instantly. She said she was single and available, as she had broken up with her boyfriend "Carlo" some months before.

Fast-forward a year, and I was regularly dating her, getting my company to extend my assignment in her city -- although I had to return to head office about 10 days a month. We had lots of fun together, great conversations, laughs, experiences, travel, romance. "Carlo" had tried to win her back, but she declined his attentions.

We were married 18 months after meeting, in a beautiful ceremony with our families and friends. I was the happiest man in the world. She said repeatedly she was committed to a long and happy marriage with me, with a child possible if it wasn't too late.

I was able to extend my work assignment indefinitely, so we could live in her city. I was ecstatic about this, as I like the city, and was so set on establishing a happy home with her. We bought a wonderful new house that she particularly liked, in a nice area very convenient to her place of work. She expressed concern about the cost, as she said she didn't have much spare cash and had lots of expenditures for her professional set-up. I gladly covered the down payment and all the initial costs.

I like and seem to get along well with her family and colleagues. I support her professional aspirations, and always willing to help her in any possible way -- including with some paperwork for her clinic and cooking dinner when she is working late.

The first six months of marriage were joyful, and smooth -- or so I thought. I had to spend 10 days a month in my old city, at head office and winding down my affairs there (selling my house, arranging my own move to her city, etc.). I emphasized that, once I relocated everything, I wouldn't be away for more than 5 days a month -- which is not bad by any couple's standards, especially when no kids are involved.

The problems started without any warning and no apparent precipitant. She first started to object about my travel to my old city. I told her that I too didn't like it, but I had to report to my head office and also wind down my affairs there so I could fully move out to my (our) new city. She wasn't empathetic at all about this, especially when my company was being extremely accommodating and flexible and I am CHANGING MY LIFE TO BE WITH HER.

I then perceived her to be the master of double standards. For example, she often called me at work and pulled me out of a business meeting for something minor. If I suggested we talk in a few hours, she'd get in a huff. But if I called her at work and it wasn't convenient, she'd just ignore the call. Similarly, she could also come home very late from work, without explanation. Whereas, I once arranged to have an after-work beer with an old (male) colleague who was in town, and she went ballistic for not informing her (she wouldn't have been available anyway).

She then started into a program of fault-finding and negativity. I couldn't do anything right, no matter how hard I tried. The worst cut is her saying "I can't talk to you" because of some supposed deficiency in communication that I have. While I have occasionally been accused of being a slightly reserved WASP male type, I am a decent communicator, always ready to talk calmly. I don't like to "fight", and prefer to cool down for an hour or overnight before talking about problems. She now appears to choose to misunderstand or misconstrue everything I say. I began to walk on eggshells.

Predictably, our sex life started to take more than the usual post-marriage decline, although was still enjoyable when it happened.

Around New Year's she seemed to step up the passive-aggessive, un-empathetic, behavior. I was at my wit's end, so I checked her laptop. My heart was pierced with a red-hot knife when I saw a few email love messages between her and "Carlo". I confronted her about this, and she just said that they were old messages that "Carlo" had asked her to send to remember her by. I thought this odd, but love is blind, so I let it go.

The weirdness continued. On my most recent monthly trip away, she was completely unavailable for the weekend when I called and texted her. She said she was in town all weekend but had attended a friend's funeral so was feeling down. When I returned to our home, I managed to catch a glimpse of her email inbox, which had a message from "Carlo". She also carefully guards her cell phone at all times.

I then checked her latest credit card statement, which showed big charges for gasoline and a quiet beach hotel for two nights about three hours from our home. 

Incidentally, in searching for the credit card statement, I found her bank statements which show she had plenty of cash to help pay the down-payment for our house with me, should she have wanted to.

I am feeling like the world's #1 chump right now.

I still love her, but I can't live with someone who loves another. And then there's the lying. And the passive-aggressive, fault-finding behavior which seems to be designed to make me feel like I am somehow guilty of something serious, when all I have been trying to do is be the best husband and friend I could be (as well as do my own job).

I have to confront her with this, but I don't know when or how. I would suggest joint counselling, but since everything seems to be "all my fault", I don't know if it could accomplish anything. I have halted the sale of my old house. I am thinking of returning to my old city.

Strangely, although she seems to be pushing me away, I don't detect that she wants to split from me. Just last night she took me to a party with a number of her professional colleagues and for a short time was almost her old self. And "Carlo" is formally married, with children, so he isn't exactly ready marriage material. Just more flamboyant than I am, showering her with Latin lover attention.

Is she trying to line me up to be her full-time chump husband who pays the bills while she cavorts on the side, or is she trying to bait me into pulling the plug? My current assessment is that she is a seriously emotionally impaired person who doesn't know what she wants but feels entitled to everything.


----------



## bluesky

"Predictably, our sex life started to take more than the usual post-marriage decline"

Not after 10 months, the typical decline in measured in YEARS, not months.

She is a cheater.

Get your marriage annulled ASAP.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

It's apparent you married the wrong woman. She isn't going to change so you need to do what you can to protect yourself.

Don't worry, you'll find someone else. We always do.


----------



## cb45

u my good man, have been "taken" and u know it.

u dont need me or anyone else here to tell u this, for u already
know it deep down. u only need us to confirm it for u, i presume.

consider it confirmed, if things are accurately described as 
being the way u say they are.

PROTECT yourself, or get a lawyer, good friend/mentor to help
u do so 1st. 

Then come to a place of forgiveness/understanding so u can 
move forward in whatever way GOD wants u to WALK in this
matter of divorce/reconciliation with your "too good to be true
medical specialist" who's got u on her "operating table."

As it is written, "my ways are not your ways..."---Isaiah 55:8

B'Shalom.....................ray:


----------



## okeydokie

i wouldnt stick around for another minute, i would be long gone away from her


----------



## Andrew2011

Thanks to the four of you, for your very direct comments. I am still in the "numb" phase 48 hours later, and have consciously decided not to react suddenly or rashly. I need some time to plan next steps before she suspects that I know what I know. Who knows what will happen once it's all on the table.

I would really like to know what she is thinking now, especially on her cool demeanor to me over the past month. First, because I am wondering. Second, in case it can help me plan my next steps. Any woman care to assess? Is she feeling embarrassed and guilty? Is she trying to provoke me to do something, such as confront her and pull the plug on the marriage? Or is she so infatuated with "Carlo" that she has no time for basic courtesy towards her husband?


----------



## cb45

Ah,,, "the paralysis of analysis........" dont stay here/there man.

find the happy place, and stay there as long as poss.

u digg?

or suffer...your wish.


----------



## Andrew2011

I dig. Thanks for the prompt, cb45, I understand exactly where you are coming from. No worries about me being indecisive or analyzing things to death before I act, however. I just prefer to look before I leap.

And like everyone else in my situation, I have a bunch of nagging questions that will probably never go completely away. I'd like to structure how I think about them, though, so I they can begin to fade.


----------



## stumblealong

I am sorry you are going through this. I am a woman, and I do feel you've been duped. Obviously she is self-centered, and her not helping with the down pymt of the house, when she had the means to do so, is proof of this. She had no real intent of being a loving partner to you. I feel she is using you. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but like you say love is blind, you just need confirmation of your feelings, that is why you are here. IMO you need to move on. You will find a loving woman, but you can't if your still attached to her. 

Not that I would handle this very gracefully, but I would just print out the hotel reciepts, emails from 'Carlos' and leave them for her to see, and just move back to your home city. I don't think there is anything really to repair this. If she is cheating this early in your marriage, she will do it again and again. Usually people revert to cheating after yrs of a broken marriage and neglect, this is not the case. She is bad news.

Wishing you the best of luck.
Stumble


----------



## Saffron

I'm so sorry you're going through this Andrew, getting cheated on no matter how long you've been together is devastating. 

It seems your wife's current and past behavoir doesn't bode well for your future. To be cheating with an ex after only 10 months of marriage speaks of some major issues. Since you were out of town so much of your courtship, it's possible she strung "Carlos" along just enough to keep his interest.

Of course you don't want to make any rash decisions, but with no children to consider, I'd be seriously thinking annulment. I've been with my husband for over 15 years and we have two children together, trying to rebuild after his infideltiy is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. If we didn't have such a strong history and our children, I'm not sure I'd have the strength to do it.

Good luck.


----------



## Workingitout

I agree with all that have posted. I do believe you need a confrontation but with a trusted person as a mediator, (ie: your pastor or counsellor). You lay out what you have, a little at a time, and ask for an explanation. Be prepared for her to lie. They always do. Then give her more to hang herself. You'll probably never get what you are looking for, but you'll feel better about what you must do. Goodluck


----------



## michzz

stumblealong said:


> I
> 
> Not that I would handle this very gracefully, but I would just print out the hotel reciepts, emails from 'Carlos' and leave them for her to see, and just move back to your home city.


And keep copies for yourself!!

She will try to BS you about it.


----------



## turnera

Separate. If she really wants you, she will pursue you and PROVE herself. If she doesn't do this, well, then you know she's a gold digger. 

Protect your money. Shut down all accounts TODAY. You can always reopen them later.


----------



## stumblealong

turnera said:


> Separate. If she really wants you, she will pursue you and PROVE herself. If she doesn't do this, well, then you know she's a gold digger.
> 
> Protect your money. Shut down all accounts TODAY. You can always reopen them later.


:iagree:


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

this is not good at all-----I think you should speak to a lawyer right away to protect yourself.


----------



## Andrew2011

turnera said:


> Separate. If she really wants you, she will pursue you and PROVE herself. If she doesn't do this, well, then you know she's a gold digger.
> 
> Protect your money. Shut down all accounts TODAY. You can always reopen them later.


Good advice. Things are beginning to be closed down and moved quietly, limit on joint credit card reduced significantly. I need to move a few key things out of the house next week and make some other arrangements before I confront her.

A good by-product of my investigation of her files this week is that I know she has assets, and where. She also has a very good salary. So I am not worried so much about her being a classic "gold digger" -- although I suppose one never knows until any legal process starts.


----------



## Andrew2011

stumblealong said:


> Not that I would handle this very gracefully, but I would just print out the hotel reciepts, emails from 'Carlos' and leave them for her to see, and just move back to your home city.


I love the simplicity of this approach! I might just do it that way! The one good thing about the half-finished relocation is that when I pull the plug and leave this town, I'm gone for good!

She has been studiously cool to me the past week, especially the past two days, while I have been as "normal" as possible, talkative, keeping our normal routine.

She is very self-centered, so I don't think she knows what I am thinking.

I feel that with this low-key passive aggressive behavior she is trying to bait me into some kind of fight. (You would think that a cheater would want to be sweet and nice to cover up her sordid activities, but that's another issue.) I am avoiding taking the bait. I really don't have much to discuss or argue about with her. Funny, but I detect that my failure to take the bait might actually be pissing her off somehow, causing her to escalate the coolness. It's like her desired remote control transmitter of me is no longer working.

It is amazing what you see when you twist the lens. A lot of things are coming into sharp focus.


----------



## thetwoofus

i agree with turnera. Dont throw it away just yet. be smart and wait for your answers as they will come
good luck

boy there is some negativity in this post

oh and l do have experience in this field


----------



## Andrew2011

thetwoofus said:


> Dont throw it away just yet. be smart and wait for your answers as they will come


Thetwoofus: Thanks for your comment. Could you please explain/expand on it?


----------



## turnera

If you separate and you never see her again, you have your answer.

If you separate and she goes ballistic and follows you or harasses you or begs you, you can at least try to pretend she really loved you, and you can work from there.

Has she been married before?


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Hey, I'm going to bring some positive negativity. 

The best thing about this marriage is when you leave this marriage. I wouldn't give her the time of day, just take off. You can analyze the marriage once you're back to ones and can let her know how messed up she is later if she even asks.


----------



## Andrew2011

turnera said:


> Has she been married before?


She has never been married before. She had a live-in relationship for 5 years with "George" that ended in 2007, about a year before she took up with "Carlo". I have met "George", and he is a nice guy, but seems a little wacky -- certainly he screwed around on her a lot. Not a lot of ethics there.

While I am at it, the OM, ex-boyfriend "Carlo" seems dramatic, impulsive and out-there too, at least according to people I know who have worked with him. And he's still married, although his wife knows he screws around.

I have a feeling that, given my wife's experience with these exotic (I didn't say nutty) guys, I happened along and was the stable, nice, socially and professionally presentable man with whom she wanted to experience marriage. I am getting the feeling that it was a stage of life thing rather than love. I feel like an accessory to her life, a little better than a fancy new handbag.

I think she craves the drama and tumoil/excitement that these two other guys live. I don't provide it, and wouldn't want to.


----------



## twotimeloser

First of I would like to point out that you are a well spoken man, methodical and seemingly objective. Having that iformation about yourself, you should feel secure in making a decision.

Lets examine the facts here. 

You are 49, sir. You really dont have time to be dealing with issues of infidelity and the likes of "Carlo"

The truth is that cheating is a process that most people dont recover from for years and years. If this were to work out, and she were prove herself to you, you would be 60 before you had some sence of normalcy in your life. 

The best thing you can do is chalk this up to an error in judgement and move forward. 

The no-fault laws of divorce make cheating a meal ticket for gold diggers, so use caution when making the split. 

Seperate your property, "Secure" your assets. (you know what i mean) and just go **Poof**

If you are not in any real rush, start looking now. I do not advise just going without saying a word. A spouse can claim abandonment, even if she is a pin cushion for Carlo. That can come back to bite you. Annulment is the best answer if possible, but there has to be an agreement to that i think. * dont hold me to that* 

You don't have time to play games, friend. Stick with your job as priority #1, and deal with her like an annoyance. If she starts flipping out on you, ask her mother or father for some advice. 

I did that once, it was hilarious... The mom told me all kinds of good stuff. Good for a laugh... when you have no intention on saving the union.

Anyways, i have high expectations for you brother... You sound like a guy who is dealing with this on a logical basis. You know what to do, just execute the plan now. No one succeeds without a little effort. go get em, buddy.


----------



## dadda11o

Maybe a dumb question, but why is it the one being screwed over the one who has to leave? If she's being unfaithful & etc., why shouldn't she go, especially if you provided the extra funds. Wouldn't it be easier to deal with the legal matters BEFORE you're in another state? I walked away and lost everything, because I didn't know the law or what a spouse is capable of, when they have the right problems. We owe the same amount on the home we bought 12 years ago, which means at least $30,000 missing there. My husband took our jointly titled car and traded it for one by himself...if you have a joint real estate holding, I'd be careful. You could end up owing a lot...best of luck and endings...


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

I'll repeat myself-----talk to a lawyer.


----------



## Andrew2011

twotimeloser said:


> First of I would like to point out that you are a well spoken man, methodical and seemingly objective. Having that iformation about yourself, you should feel secure in making a decision.


Thanks for the compliment; I have been rather short of them recently. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I think I am a reasonably balanced and fair person. I fully accept my 50% of responsibility for the marriage and am always willing to discuss ways I can improve and relate better. Sure, I am not perfect. I work hard, with long hours and some travel, but stop well short of being a workaholic. (I like nothing better than to have a cell and laptop free weekend.) I am like most men in that I need my mate to give me a gentle whack to the head every now and again to make focus on some issue that I might not be adequately considering about her -- but when I do know about it, I think I am very good at trying to listen, understand, empathize, and try to work things out with her in a positive way.

I also tend not to keep grudges over minor issues, as we all need to focus on the positive and keep growing.

The big problem with this marriage is that she tells me she can't talk to me, and goes off in a huff when I ask her to explain. The few times she has talked to me about the "problems", it's aways about and my various supposed deficiencies. When I try to discuss them, it's like I am trying to argue to the state Court of Appeal from a conviction. And, no surprise, she is rarely wrong or "needs improvement". If she does something wrong, she says "sorry, it's done, I didn't mean it, what's your problem". She has taken at most 20% responsibility for our relationship, and then mostly the "fun" parts.

You are quite right: at 49, I don't have any time to waste, and I won't.


----------



## Catherine602

Andrew2011 said:


> A good by-product of my investigation of her files this week is that I know she has assets, and where. She also has a very good salary. So I am not worried so much about her being a classic "gold digger" -- although I suppose one never knows until any legal process starts.


She may have her own money but that does not stop her from being avaricious in trying to get more. Keep records of every thing, when it comes to any monetary arrangement she may owe you. I'll tell you from a woman's standpoint. I think you came along at the right time when she got out of the relationship with her ex. 

She saw you as nice, and rather trusting and very into her so she took advantage of a good thing. The clearest sign that she was not invested in the partnership with you was the fact that she did not want to invest in a home even though she had the money.

Can you find out more about her? Make very sure you have all of your eggs in a row before you out her, don't forget to cut off all access to anything of value to you. Get her out of your house immediately when she comes back. Give her 48 hrs to get her stuff out. You pack an leave it outside. She does not appear to be due any kindness. She has enough money to stay in a hotel. 

Please don't beg her or ask for explanations or seem upset. Be strong and matter of fact. This is the best way to handle her and go away with your dignity. Just tell her to get out and why..... 

You will never really find out why she did this so don't give her the chance to lie or try to put it back on you. You can figure it out yourself. You must be surgical and resolute. She seems dishonest enough to do anything in fact I would secure a lawyer for consultation and make sure you file first.


----------



## Andrew2011

Catherine602 said:


> Can you find out more about her? Make very sure you have all of your eggs in a row before you out her, don't forget to cut off all access to anything of value to you. Get her out of your house immediately when she comes back. Give her 48 hrs to get her stuff out. You pack an leave it outside. She does not appear to be due any kindness. She has enough money to stay in a hotel.
> 
> Please don't beg her or ask for explanations or seem upset. Be strong and matter of fact. This is the best way to handle her and go away with your dignity. Just tell her to get out and why.....
> 
> You will never really find out why she did this so don't give her the chance to lie or try to put it back on you. You can figure it out yourself. You must be surgical and resolute. She seems dishonest enough to do anything in fact I would secure a lawyer for consultation and make sure you file first.


First of all, thanks to everyone who was kind enough to offer me their perspectives. It helped me tremendously over the past few days -- a time when I felt numb and hyperactive at the same time, didn't have anyone to talk to, lacked any objectivity (impossible) and wondered WTF? What do I do? What is this? Who did I marry?

I have already taken steps to "secure" things and take legal action. I am following up with the lawyer next week. For good reason I can't mention here, I can't out her for another few weeks. But I will have everything ready for then.

While I do expect her to fight back and try to claim a bigger piece of the pie than she deserves, I am not worried about being taken to the cleaners, for a few reasons I shouldn't say. Sure, I will lose some money on the house transferring back to my old city, but thank God that if this had to happen it happened now when I can slide back into my old house and city. I'll consider any loss an "exit ticket".

And for those who say I should fight for the house and get her out of it pronto, I understand the reasoning, but the down payment wasn't enormous and I really want to get out of here and get my life back on track. If it gets tied up in legal process for a few years, it's no big deal. In a weird way, I think it will piss her off more than me.

And as far as her being able to cry, whine, cajole or romance me back, there is zero risk of that. Perhaps because I am a "nice guy" I am often mistaken for a pushover. But do me really wrong, and the switch flips to the other side. I am very determined when I need to be.

And yes, when the moment comes, it will be succinct, as clinical as I can do it -- and then ciao.


----------



## twotimeloser

Catherine602 said:


> She may have her own money but that does not stop her from being avaricious in trying to get more. Keep records of every thing, when it comes to any monetary arrangement she may owe you. I'll tell you from a woman's standpoint. I think you came along at the right time when she got out of the relationship with her ex.
> 
> She saw you as nice, and rather trusting and very into her so she took advantage of a good thing. The clearest sign that she was not invested in the partnership with you was the fact that she did not want to invest in a home even though she had the money.
> 
> Can you find out more about her? Make very sure you have all of your eggs in a row before you out her, don't forget to cut off all access to anything of value to you. Get her out of your house immediately when she comes back. Give her 48 hrs to get her stuff out. You pack an leave it outside. She does not appear to be due any kindness. She has enough money to stay in a hotel.
> 
> Please don't beg her or ask for explanations or seem upset. Be strong and matter of fact. This is the best way to handle her and go away with your dignity. Just tell her to get out and why.....
> 
> You will never really find out why she did this so don't give her the chance to lie or try to put it back on you. You can figure it out yourself. You must be surgical and resolute. She seems dishonest enough to do anything in fact I would secure a lawyer for consultation and make sure you file first.


:iagree: W/ Catherine602 :iagree:


----------



## Andrew2011

I can't believe what tragi-comic scene is playing out here.

I would really love to know what she is thinking, what she is trying to do, as it would help me get though the coming month until the boom comes down.

(And no, this is not any kind of "analysis paralysis", this is "who is this woman, really?")

She can't know everything I now know about her affair (and I haven't told anyone), and she can't know about the steps I am taking. She hasn't made any statement to me about separating.

But she's really stepped up the campaign of passive-aggressiveness. Here's a sample of today's fare she has dished at me:

1. No gifts that I gave her are visible in the house. She is using a different handbag, my Valentine's flowers are in the trash, I'll bet her "favorite" perfume I got her has been tucked away somewhere. 
2. We had an appointment for some minor house renovation matters. She didn't show up, claiming (by phoning an hour late) that the winter weather was bad.
3. We went out to the shopping mall to have a bite and do some shopping. (I was as "normal" as possible, and even a little more upbeat than yesterday as my head is a lot clearer.) I told her about the minor renovation discussions, and she couldn't have been less interested. I continued for as long as the subject deserved.
4. We had to duck in to two shops at the end of the evening, so we split up for 10 minutes. I told her I'd meet her back at hers,and when I got there, they said she had left. I texted her, and she said she was in the parking garage. Which happened to be right near where I had been.
5. All day she has been studiously "businesslike" with me, even gruff. Of course she has been absolutely charming to her co-workers on the phone.
6. She came to bed dressed in her armor bathrobe, and turned her knees up against me to keep me away. I gave her a good-night kiss anyway.

These are obviously all provocations, and I am not taking the bait on any of them. I'm being the oblivious nice guy, for now: as in "She's probably just had a bad day."

But why is she doing this right now? This is so nasty, pathetic and transparent it is almost laughable. What's her game plan? Is she trying to:

A. Provoke me into a fight where she can dish me some more, perhaps to try to keep me in control?
B. Provoke me into a fight so she can storm out "with justification" about how difficult I am, or precipitate a break-up from one of us?

or 
C. She is so screwed up and torn between "Carlo's" exciting affections and my (formerly) happy home that she is seizing up inside and freezing?
D. She is just a hollow person with some kind of serious emotional deficiency who needs serial lovers. She has now has latched onto the next man/victim, doesn't need the last host, and is incapable of even basic courtesy and respect and affection to him. She needs to denigrate him in order to effect the transference to the new one. This could go on for some time, until someone pulls the plug.

I vote B or D, but it could be still early for B, so I have to go with D.

Once again, while I am obviously very curious as to the psychological diagnosis here, I really do want to know what her game tactics are likely to be right now. No one can say for sure, I realize, but a few probable scenarios would help.

Unless anyone has a better suggestion, I plan to be the basically pleasant "oblivious guy" for the next few weeks, but I am going to be very busy at work too (hey, big projects coming up!). I might also forget to buy a few things or sign any new contracts. I will not fight, express any negative feelings, or go cold like she has.


----------



## twotimeloser

Andrew, if this was my situation, here is how I would handle it.

Look her in the eye... say " You DO REALIZE that this is not going to get better by ignoring it, right?" 

Followed by.. " Why are you so upset? It isnt like I am sleeping around on you or anything, Im not plotting my revenge"

Then.. " Hell, I have an unfaithful wife and you dont see my getting all upset, do you?" 

Now... Im married to someone who would think that through.. so I dont know how she would handle that, but that is what I would say.

Those three things accomplish a lot.

1. you establish that you want to discuss this
2. You let her know that you are not hostile
3. You let her know that you notice her irritation

maybe you can find better words, but I will say this again, you are above this.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Cut your losses now. Do what you have to do to get away from her, this person is toxic and will only bring you down. This isn't about marriage but more about about bad person that needs to infect others with their madness.


----------



## Lazarus

You wrote at outset: " I am crushed". Are you? 

When I read your initial post, the opportunity was there from outset. Your time away at Head Office created opportunity. As I read on, the bad treatment you then received was classic "nit picking" that a DS inflicts on the LS whilst having an affair. This treatment usually leaves a LS wondering if they are doing something wrong when it is a DS' way of dealing with their deceitful, harmful behaviour. Blaming and dumping on the LS.

Your trips back to HO might have felt bad for her as a new wife but a new wife in love should have pined for her new husband not run off sneakily back to an old flame. But you say you work hard (not a workaholic) and that's your view but what about her view?

Were you attentive when you were away ? Did you check-in and re-assure her that you were missing her, or were you super organised and business like? 

From what you write, it sounds as though you hooked up with a cheater big style. She has no morals. She is happy to share another woman's husband. Her ex has no morals either. 
Their reckless behaviour has caused so much hurt and devastation to others lives. As one person wrote elsewhere on TAM, who wants to share "sloppy seconds" Crude, certainly but it is the reality during an affair. STD checking is essential. 

You have a short history together and you might recover well but it is a shame to experience such heartache so soon into a marriage. 

You are 49. Have you ever cheated or been cheated on before this experience?

You may have got her on the re-bound. Protecting yourself is important because of the situation. But, ask yourself, did you really love her? If so, checking-out and leaving all the dirt, the emails for her to discover is very effective in that she is likely to be shocked and it is a bit of revenge taking on your part. But, would someone who loves someone want to do this, or is it sweet revenge? Caution should be exercised if it is your chosen path as pointed out earlier. This action could come back to bite you in other ways.

Being prepared for DDay is good. As it will be on YOUR terms, not HERS. If you want to make the major decision to go back to your old City, before leaving her, consider informing her parents, or trusted siblings and say you have discovered your wife's infidelity so soon into the marriage and you have had to protect yourself as she appears to have a track record of cheating. 

If you immediately tell her family before zooming off into the sunset leaving her with printed emails, at least you have stopped her from spinning a story to others that you abandoned her. A DS may tell a very different story to family to curry favour as opposed to telling the real story. You see, not only does the LS have all the lies and deceit to cope with but the DS often disrespects friends and family too, often telling parents a web of lies too to justify their behaviour.

If you exit your marriage this way you do not get the chance to see her immediate reaction and you may not get good closure because in your inital post you said you "loved her" and didn't want to take any major decisions right now.


----------



## turnera

I vote for a, b, c, AND d. Just a screwed up person who never married because no one was willing to put up with her. So she changed patterns and acted like she figured you wanted a woman to be, to get your stability and reputation and money. She can't create her own, so she wanted to try one on. Found out it's still not enough.

When will you be ready to leave?


----------



## twotimeloser

turnera said:


> When will you be ready to leave?


From a legal stand point, isnt that a bad idea? to vacate the property first?


----------



## turnera

He doesn't want the house. He only moved to that city to be with her. He wants to go home.


----------



## lpycb42

This is probably what happened to her:

She's 38 and single. Probably feeling the pressure because "I'm a smart, professional, attractive woman. What is wrong with me? Why do all my friends have families and I don't?" She is madly in love with this Carlo individual who probably ended it with her because he was tired of her wanting to be serious and she got tired of waiting for him to leave his wife. They probably rekindled their romance sporadically until she met you. You were nice enough and willing to commit, so she settled. Carlo probably found out and started pursuing her more. He probably tells her he regrets to have let her go. She falls for his crap because she never got over him. They start having an affair because you're far away. She doesn't even have the decency to delete her messages, nah. That just shows the complete disregard she has for you. She isn't even afraid you'll find out. Basically, she never loved you. 

Dump her.


----------



## Andrew2011

Lazarus said:


> You wrote at outset: " I am crushed". Are you? ....
> 
> Your trips back to HO might have felt bad for her as a new wife but a new wife in love should have pined for her new husband not run off sneakily back to an old flame. But you say you work hard (not a workaholic) and that's your view but what about her view?
> 
> Were you attentive when you were away ? Did you check-in and re-assure her that you were missing her, or were you super organised and business like?
> 
> ...
> 
> You are 49. Have you ever cheated or been cheated on before this experience?



Yes, I am crushed. But I only have 1 million pieces of me to scrape off the floor rather than 2 million, because this isn't the first time I have been victimized by her. About three months after we married she did some very insensitive (ok, nasty) things to me (not of a cheating or OM nature), which hurt and dumbfounded me. The episode passed on its own in a week, so I put it down to a weird phase. That episode almost hurt me as much as this one, because it was the first time the honeymoon screeched to a halt. Now I am connecting lots of dots -- and there is a long, straight line here.

That's a very good question about to what extent my business travel and my attentiveness during it was a major factor contributing to our problems. She certainly thinks so. While it didn't help us, I think she is focussing on that as a "hook" to channel anger at me.

We talked frequently when I was on the road, checking in on email, phone and video call at least three or four times a day. On weekends away, I used to love spending the end of the Saturday or Sunday afternoon with her making dinner together long distance by Skype call and then dining together (I put out a candle and wine glass in front of me.) I thought that was a lot of fun.

She used to get extremely needy during these periods, demanding that I drop what I was doing to speak with her that instant she called. Especially on my first day back to Head Office, I was mobbed with meetings, often with a late day followed by a quick dinner with business colleagues (male) to catch up. She'd call (I think purposely) at very inconvenient times. As I mentioned, I felt zero empathy from her for this exercise: she could have said, "Andrew, I understand that you have to go check in for a bit back at home office, and if your company wasn't so supportive you would have had to change jobs in a bad economy. And you like them and have a fulfilling job. So I am happy you're still with them. I know you've stuff to do. Please do it and come back as quick as you can to my embrace, etc etc."

My colleagues thought it a little strange that I came from being with her only to have to mind her when I was at home office.

Also as I mentioned, this neediness wasn't reciprocal. If she wanted to go AWOL, she just didn't answer the phone.

Regarding my own experience of cheating, to my knowledge I have never been cheated on in a long term committed relationship. Same with me cheating. When I was dating, of course, a woman I was seeing once met another man she loved more, so broke off with me (she married him subsequently). I did the same thing once with a woman I was dating. In both cases, however, we weren't married or cohabitating, and the change in feeling was communicated within a week. I couldn't live with the constant duplicity and deceit; it would be corrosive to my psyche.


----------



## Andrew2011

lpycb42 said:


> This is probably what happened to her:
> 
> She's 38 and single. Probably feeling the pressure because "I'm a smart, professional, attractive woman. What is wrong with me? Why do all my friends have families and I don't?" She is madly in love with this Carlo individual who probably ended it with her because he was tired of her wanting to be serious and she got tired of waiting for him to leave his wife. They probably rekindled their romance sporadically until she met you. You were nice enough and willing to commit, so she settled. Carlo probably found out and started pursuing her more. He probably tells her he regrets to have let her go. She falls for his crap because she never got over him. They start having an affair because you're far away. She doesn't even have the decency to delete her messages, nah. That just shows the complete disregard she has for you. She isn't even afraid you'll find out. Basically, she never loved you.
> 
> Dump her.


Thanks for the distillation of the probable chain of events. This is exactly the type of sound-track that runs continuously through my head, actually!!!

The only difference I would make to your story is that she was the one who ditched "Carlo", to his shock. He kept on pursuing her, was crazy about it -- he even called me once when we were first dating demanding (almost threatening) that I let go of "his girl". For certain reasons I am now seeing in retrospect, I think that her marrying me was probably designed to punish "Carlo". Until experiencing her complete lack of love, empathy and compassion this month, I would have said that nobody could do such a thing.

Now that "Carlo"'s been put in his place, and is coming back for much more for her, and she sees that the big excitement of married life with me has worn off (and hey, she has to be alone for a few days a month -- HORROR!), time to switch back to where the action is best for the meantime.

I oscillate by the minute between anger and pity for her: she has to be one broken, hollow person inside.


----------



## Lazarus

Andrew2011 said:


> Yes, I am crushed. But I only have 1 million pieces of me to scrape off the floor rather than 2 million,


Once you have protected your position, only you will know what to do. It's a major decision you are facing and many people on TAM suggest no major decisions for 6 months.


----------



## twotimeloser

Lazarus said:


> It's a major decision you are facing and many people on TAM suggest no major decisions for 6 months.


So... I have to disagree slightly with that statement, or at least change the word "decisions" to "Actions"

Once you switch from "why me" to "let me review this" - you should make your decision. But do not act upon it until it is prudent.

I would be interested on the statistics of infidelity as it relates to men forgiving and women forgiving. Who gives in more?


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

I don't know you well enough to say that you're a victim but you're being her victim. There's a reason that she was 38 and single, she's no good. I'm sure that you must've met her family before you popped the question, what were they like? Did they have anything bad to say or show any signs to you because, when family knows that one of their own isn't fit, they tend to let you know. For example, if they think you're a good man, you'd notice a look of suprise that she was with you. 

If your marriage with her ended today, would you wake up tomorrow? If the answer to that question is yes, then you can live without her. It's not the end of the world, but the eclipse that blocks the light that shines upon it. 

You are not married to a woman, you're married to a girl. She hasn't grown up yet and probably never will at this point, you have no control over her or yourself at this point. There will come a time when you can no longer blame her for your condition, at some point you're just asking for it. They were made for each other because, these two are a couple of crazies. The only way to compete with a crazy person is to be even crazier than they are. Are you prepared for that, is that you? If it is then you're going to have to let go, express yourself to say the least. Don't just voice your displeasure but your rage. Let Carlo know what will happen to him if he keeps it up, never mind setting boundaries, set up walls around your marriage. I don't advise that you necessarily do this because it's a dark road to set down just remember that it would be necessary to hang in their world. 

I'm actually hoping that you hit your lowest point soon so that you can start to climb back up.


----------



## Andrew2011

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> ... I'm sure that you must've met her family before you popped the question, what were they like? Did they have anything bad to say or show any signs to you because, when family knows that one of their own isn't fit, they tend to let you know. For example, if they think you're a good man, you'd notice a look of suprise that she was with you.
> 
> If your marriage with her ended today, would you wake up tomorrow? If the answer to that question is yes, then you can live without her. It's not the end of the world, but the eclipse that blocks the light that shines upon it.
> 
> You are not married to a woman, you're married to a girl. She hasn't grown up yet and probably never will at this point, you have no control over her or yourself at this point. There will come a time when you can no longer blame her for your condition, at some point you're just asking for it.
> 
> They were made for each other because, these two are a couple of crazies. The only way to compete with a crazy person is to be even crazier than they are. Are you prepared for that, is that you? ....
> 
> I'm actually hoping that you hit your lowest point soon so that you can start to climb back up.


Q1: I met her mother a number of times before I popped the question. (She lives in yet another city closer to my wife.) She is a nice woman, cordial, but seemed a little skeptical or reserved at first. At the time, I attributed this to the fact that I formally lived two times zones away, was on a "temporary assignment", and was 10 years older. I thought maybe she was unsure if I was stable "marriage material" for her daughter. I am beginning to think that maybe it was the other way around ... Her mother and I seem to get along very well.

With regard to other family members, she was estranged from her brother and father, so I didn't meet them even though one lives in Chicago (which my wife and I have visited together a few times). In retrospect, that was a RED FLAG!!! But with lots of assorted family wreckage in society, it didn't shout anything to me.

Her proxies for her family are her a small group of colleagues and old university friends, with whom she likes to hang out. They seem like a good bunch, but apart from three or four of them, she actually doesn't seem to love them. So she really doesn't have a wide range of friends. And here's the weird part: the four that she does love (two female, two senior male professional colleagues), she seems to be ga-ga over. It's almost a little unnatural, it's over-the-top. She buys them presents, drops everything to be with them, helps them with lots of stuff, can act with almost childlike devotion in their presence. Fortunately, this group seems basically normal and has been nice to me.

Compensating for a rather small universe of bona fide intimate relationships, she has a broad ocean of superficial relationships. Her quiet callousness to some of these people took me aback some months ago. Compassionate she is not. RED FLAG.

Q2: I could indeed wake up tomorrow and get on with life. I have a very strong core, am independent, and have been blessed with an ability to get along with people and make friends in lots of new situations. I expect, though, that when I leave I will feel just awful, my dreams dashed and heart pierced. I will carry this heavy baggage for a long time. I am steeling myself for this. But it won't stop me from moving on. Who knows when I will hit my low point. My worst moments were this week, with the sledgehammer of discovery. No doubt there will be an emotional aftershock in a week, a month, a year -- or all three. 

As an aside, I don't think she likes at all my independent side. She has referred to it frequently in a negative sense. When I say "independent", I don't mean at all that I was prone to take off by myself when I should have been with her, or that (apart from dedication to the usual personal and professional responsibilities) I was self-absorbed. I just am not at all "needy". I would be with her because I loved her and wanted her. For example, if she had to work late, that was ok, because I would pick her up from work at 10:00 pm and take her out for a hamburger or something. I'd spend the evening time doing something useful (or just listening to music) and looking forward to a nice mini-date with her. Real love is patient and respectful (at least within reasonable limits).

I don't know what I was "supposed" to do, but I think I didn't shower her with the constant waterfall of attention and demands, calls every hour to ask her when she is finishing work, why doesn't she come home, when can we have sex, etc. She is one of these people who seems to crave conflict (or other high-emotional episode) as a way of affirmation of self, of romance, or "love". I didn't like to serve up conflict as a pastime.

Q3: I am not at all prepared to deal with these crazies. Let them have their serial family wreckage and drama.


----------



## twotimeloser

Andrew,

Everytime I see you post, I can see how well put-together you are. To be honest, I half expect your next post to read " well I am in Hawaii, enjoying a drink at the beach"

This is not a case of "my life is over!"... There is a difference when a 20-something cheats, and a 40ish person cheats. At 40, all the normal excuses are null and void. 

You didnt fail in the marriage, she did.

You know, before my wife had an EA, i was a little chubby... but as a result of it, i went to the gym got in shape and built myself up. 

I remember though, in one particularly bad fight... she called me chubby. I looked at her and said.." You know what? I can lose wieght (and i did) but you can never take back what you did." 

Now that was said in anger, and i do regret saying it a bit. But... it doesnt change the fact that it is true. 

What is there left to discuss with her? You are 49, she screwed you out of 4% of your life. Pfft.. big deal, Treat it like a bad stock and SELL SELL SELL. Before your 4% turns into 40%

Last thing you want is to end up praying for an unemployment extention. LOL


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

Andrew:

what are you going to do? two time may have it right-----and simple (I know, it is really never simple or easy). At our age (I'm 46) experiences and trusting our gut can work out. I know you'll be okay. Good luck.


----------



## Andrew2011

twotimeloser said:


> Andrew,
> 
> Everytime I see you post, I can see how well put-together you are. To be honest, I half expect your next post to read " well I am in Hawaii, enjoying a drink at the beach"
> 
> ....
> 
> You know, before my wife had an EA, i was a little chubby... but as a result of it, i went to the gym got in shape and built myself up.


Thanks, twotime. I'd sure love to be reporting from Hawaii (or Fiji, or Capri) right now! With some very nice and positive woman to talk to over a lunch by the sea ... I don't have any stomach for a "revenge fling", and wouldn't want to complicate my upcoming legal contest by leaving myself open to an counter-allegation of cheating on her. (It's not so much the legal effect, it's the atmospherics of it all.) But it would be wonderful for a change to talk to someone about normal stuff without the probability that I will trigger some negativity.

I'll wait till the dust settles on this sad episode, though, before doing any more dating. I think I am going to become very good friends in March with the bar of soap in the shower ...

I fully agree with you on the self-improvement question. Good for you for taking that challenge. Often we need to do a "judo move" on aggressive life events like this, and use their own force to flip them around to our advantage.

Last week I was mistaken for being (only) 40, and I am losing weight. (I too need to shed another 10-15 lbs.) I just retained a professional "image consultant" and we will be doing my "colors" and buying some cool new threads for me. Who knows what the real effect of that will be on my "image" -- this could be hocus -- but I decided it would be fun -- and maybe about time I spent some money on me.

So I am not so worried about the "who's going to come out ahead" of this in five years -- and with any luck, I won't even care.


----------



## Andrew2011

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> what are you going to do? two time may have it right-----and simple (I know, it is really never simple or easy). At our age (I'm 46) experiences and trusting our gut can work out. I know you'll be okay. Good luck.


Thanks for the support, which is greatly appreciated.

I am seeing the lawyer this week. I am taking practical steps to protect my situation (which I won't mention here). I am focusing on work. I am tuning her out like a bad FM signal. But I am not being provocative or overly distant or giving her any reason to suspect what's up. Mr Dupe-Punching-Bag appears still to be safely in residence.

I expect his much less loving, malleable and patient twin will make a sudden, brief appearance in March.


----------



## cb45

Kudos to Andrew:

i've not read everyone/everything here at TAM but, of the folks
that havent read marriagebuilders stuff, or belong to a 
seminary/bible college (etc) YOU are the *most balanced*dude whos handled this heart trying situation the best. i'm sure it didnt/doesnt feel that way at times but,
most importantly thats how u've walked it out.

wasnt perfect....(lol) but who/what the heck ever is???

shalom yededeed..............


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

good for you!


----------



## twotimeloser

Andrew, you "da" man. 

wow i just felt young again... wait its over. lol

Great attitude bud!!


----------



## Catherine602

I have been following you progress and I am glad you are not getting tangled in negativity. It's tempting but then you prolong the emotional engagement. The best thing to do is walk away cool like she was not worth getting your self excited about. She wants to see you do a Carlos, she is into drama. 

She will be pissed when you walk away so easily. Only cheating, lying, losers like Carlos would beg for her presence not a man of quality. 

Vin.. I mean Andrew, don't lose too much weight, you'll look too skinny!!!


----------



## twotimeloser

Can I just make you smile for a second?

Ya know I am not going to post a whole page on my first wife's infidelity, but just to give you a great post divorce story as inspiration...

While she and I were married we were living paycheck to paycheck. I worked a graveyard shift and money was tight. The divorce was very fast and it was final in august of 2002. Well, in october of 2002 I won $200,000 in the powerball. I never asked, but I wonder how that made her feel. Zing~

Somehow, things just work out Andrew.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

love the Powerball story-----"Karma".


----------



## twotimeloser

I was please, but I am not gonna lie... I listened to "how do ya like me now" on repeat for a good month straight.


----------



## Andrew2011

I dropped the bomb yesterday.

I hadn't intended to, it would probably have been better timed a week or so from now.

But I woke up to hear her cell phone buzzing from a text; she had forgotten to take it into the bathroom with her. I took a look at the text chat. The string was short, but steamy. Of course, her words to him hurt me the most. I couldn't take it any longer. This was to be the last kick in the balls for me.

I waited until lunchtime, when I called her and asked if she had anything important about our relationship she needed to tell me. She acted mystified and said "nothing". I said, "OK, I have given you the opportunity. Bye."

I then packed my bags and moved out. I sent her an email saying that I know what she and "Carlo" had been up to, and that she and he could meet me in the lawyer's office in two weeks.

She was shocked. She denied it immediately. When she got over the shock, she went on the counteroffensive, trying to find bits and pieces of whatever argument to verbally throw at me. Nothing about the cheating, though!

She said I was imagining things. I told her the name of the hotel they were at. I showed her a photo of him shirtless on a hotel-looking bed, beside a suitcase -- that was date-stamped the particular date in question (she hadn't deleted it from her camera). She said I was mistaken -- it was an old photo. Well, funny, hon, that suitcase looks exactly like the distinctive one you bought with me last year.

She called me maybe 25 times. I didn't pick up. She them must have gone through all the likely hotels in town before she found me and called me from the lobby. I declined to come down from my rather cozy room, and pulled the plug on the hotel phone. I slept rather well.

She again tried me a few times today. She wants to meet. I told her that I will not meet her to discuss anything before the meeting with the lawyers, unless she first admits to what has happened. We have to deal only with reality here.

I can't believe the lies and denial. It's like someone getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar and saying, "that's not my hand!", "that's not a cookie", and then "who the heck are you to be looking anyway"? Can someone help me -- what's the psychology here? As I said on a previous post, I understand anyone using "spin" to try to slide out of any uncomfortable situation. But faced with such evidence, most people would surely grimly concede and take off.

I have been quite civil, with one exception. She said she did not cheat on me with shirtless "Carlo" on that imaginary weekend get-away. So I said, "you must be using a Clinton definition of sex, then, it must have been a bl**j** ". She said she was "offended". I'll try to keep things cleaner.

I must say, I feel a very strange mix of emotions right now. I have certainly pulled the dagger out from my heart, which hurts like crazy. I feel decompression and relief that things are now out in the open. I feel a little dislocated being away from any "home", but also very liberated. (I am going on a drive myself to Sacramento today, for no apparent reason.) I feel some foreboding from any upcoming legal/financial contest. And maybe it's corny, but today I feel like a man.

Somehow, I think that she and "Carlo" might be having a more difficult day. I wonder how many steamy texts they are sending to each other?


----------



## Xena

Hee hee hee. I've been watching this thread, as I'm sure so many others have. Waiting for you to kick her up the arse (so to speak). It's so fun to see a LS who isn't broken up and tormented and downtrodden...inspiration to us all! Well done! If I was there, I would buy you a drink and shake your hand.


----------



## turnera

Outstanding. I'm sorry you had to do this, but you handled it perfectly. 

The psychology? No different than any other addict would have. She wanted BOTH of you, and you have now removed half of what she wants. Cheaters are entitled; she's not thinking of how you feel; it's all about how to save what SHE wants.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

I think you're handling it like a MAN----like a "John Wayne" type in the old movies-----no bull****; just the facts and consequences. Keep us updated and know that we are with you.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> I think you're handling it like a MAN----like a "John Wayne" type in the old movies-----no bull****; just the facts and consequences. Keep us updated and know that we are with you.


Hell yeah he is, I wanna be like you when I grow up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## stumblealong

'John Wayne' indeed! Sorry for the hurt you are going through though. The pain of it all will subside with time. Now that the dagger has been removed, your heart can heal. You're riding off into the sunset, leaving her in your dust! She can have her nasty 'Carlos,' your better off!


----------



## Eli-Zor

Andrew: the only other advice is for you to protect yourself against her gaslighting you. Use direct words and let her family know she is in an affair with XXX. Some WS trump up charges against their BS , if you meet her have someone present , buy a VAR and have it with you at all times. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

What do you want? Do you want her back, sans affair partner?


----------



## Andrew2011

I just returned from a nice excursion by myself, which was a welcome distraction. I drove for about four hours, cranked up the Classic Rock radio station and sang along with the old hits. Fortunately, "Dazed and Confused" wasn't on the playlist. I was half-hoping for "Positively 4th St", but, however superficially appealing that tune might be under the circumstances, it's a very negative place I don't want to go to.

Thanks to everyone for their kind support. Xena, I'd love to buy all of us a round of drinks sometime! Really, you people are wonderful.

Eli-Zor, thanks for the caution on the risk of her trying to gaslight me. I think I have pre-empted any predatory revisionism of our breakup story by already talking with two of her key "family" members -- one who by coincidence called me last night on another matter. I didn't give out many details, preferring to say that I cannot live in a marriage with three people in it; yes, I have lots of proof in documents and photos; and that I have removed myself from the house as a consequence.

In a broader sense, if someone tries to insult my intelligence by telling me that "white" is "black", I really get pissed off. So there is no risk that she will turn my perspective around. What happened, happened. The more she lies, the more I lose respect for her.

While leads me to turnera's question, what do I want to do next with her? Might I take her back? While I might or might not be able to get over a single physical act of cheating (although that could be creepy), I cannot abide by serial, material lies that negate the heart of a married relationship. Simply put, there is no way I can trust her any more. Perhaps if she had come clean immediately, there might have been something to talk about. But by trying to deny, push-back, deflect blame and obfuscate the truth she is showing a side to her character which I find sad and pathetic.

All my phones and emails are turned off. I am drinking one nice glass of wine now, about to watch a fun, dumb movie and doze off whenever.

She can't reach me here. I think I feel my life stirring again.


----------



## twotimeloser

Hell ya, brother, more power to you!


----------



## Lazarus

Andrew2011 said:


> In a broader sense, if someone tries to insult my intelligence by telling me that "white" is "black", I really get pissed off. .


But not everything is black or white but more grey. However her sneaky clandestine trysts are as clear as day. Sorry to note that you saw what she wrote. That makes everything so much more hurtful.



Andrew2011 said:


> The more she lies, the more I lose respect for her.


Constant lying makes it all so much worse because it shows continued disrespect for the loyal spouse.



Andrew2011 said:


> Simply put, there is no way I can trust her any more.
> .


This statement is rarely true. The reality is trust isn’t an “on or off” issue. Trust covers numerous areas in relationships.




Andrew2011 said:


> Perhaps if she had come clean immediately, there might have been something to talk about. But by trying to deny, push-back, deflect blame and obfuscate the truth she is showing a side to her character which I find sad and pathetic. .


She failed the first test. Perhaps her initial reaction to the shock and awe treatment? 

You did well.



Andrew2011 said:


> I think I feel my life stirring again.


This indicates to me that either you never really loved her, or you are acting out of hurt. Maybe both?

She's treated you abominably as often is the case when a disloyal spouse cheats on a loyal spouse. Betrayal is her way to handle an issue. Shows poor character. Look at history. Those who betray are usually shown nothing but contempt. That is maybe where you are right now?


----------



## twotimeloser

Lazarus said:


> This indicates to me that either you never really loved her, or you are acting out of hurt. Maybe both??


I disagree with that. 

On occasion there are people who do not reside in the FOG, and are able to reasonably make decisions. 

If you have read andrew's posts, you will see an evolution of thought and emotion in a shorter than usual time. I think that this shows maturity and decisiveness. 

Love is not the issue. Everyone knows that Love is NEVER enough, and anyone that tells you different is naive. Even God, who loves unconditionally, still has clearly defined boundries to enter his Kingdom. 

I am not a religious nut, I am just making a point, that his actions do not mean he never loved her.


----------



## Andrew2011

Thank you, twotime.

I did love her immensely, and still do, despite the emotional bashing she has dealt me. (As I mentioned, the first big bashing took place just a few months after marriage.)

I just can't take it anymore, can't live with a spouse who cheats, and can't be the bad guy any more when I haven't done anything (seriously) wrong.

My post yesterday was just to say that for the first time in months I feel like I have a life (again) outside of the negative marriage I was trapped in. Not that the hurting has stopped -- that will take a very long time to subside, I expect.


----------



## Andrew2011

The drama continues today. Eli-Zor, you were bang on, both on the attempted gaslighting and the trumped-up charges. I awoke today to find two emails from her, one about perception not always being reality in relationships, and the second a rant about my motivations to get away to a hotel – a tryst with a new girlfriend, perhaps? 

This aggressive push-back in the face of her cheating strains all remaining respect I have for her. If she were honest with herself, she would just say, “Yes I did it. I can explain the reasons.” Or if she wanted me back so badly, she could have said something like “Let’s not talk about other people. Let’s talk about us.” How about just a neutral, “You do what you think you have to do.” Nope. It’s all about me again, not her. 

I am not taking the bait here. I am sticking to the key facts. But it is very upsetting.

What kind of person is this? This behavior sounds almost psychotic. I have never experienced anything like it before in my 49 years.

What can I expect next? I am leaving town on Monday, only to come back a few times over the coming weeks and months to wind up my affairs here. The lawyers are warming up the papers next week.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

she may in fact have mental issues too.....be careful and good luck.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Does your wife have a facebook account, if so copy all her friends details onto word, therafter send an exposure note to them. If she does not have one send a mail to all her family and friends stating the facts , include the OM's name and mention you have hard evidence to confirm the affair. 

The above serves to protect you from her gaslighting and keep your wife on the backfoot, do not reveal to her what you are doing, if you can get access to his friends details via facebook or elsewhere do the same. Neither of them will expect you to do this. 

Whatever happens do not play your hand and plan your steps carefully , if you need exposure words there is a template I can post for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lazarus

Andrew2011 said:


> Thank you, twotime.
> 
> I did love her immensely, and still do, despite the emotional bashing she has dealt me. (As I mentioned, the first big bashing took place just a few months after marriage.)
> 
> I just can't take it anymore, can't live with a spouse who cheats, and can't be the bad guy any more when I haven't done anything (seriously) wrong.
> 
> My post yesterday was just to say that for the first time in months I feel like I have a life (again) outside of the negative marriage I was trapped in. Not that the hurting has stopped -- that will take a very long time to subside, I expect.


 
You seemed to indicate that you fell head over heal with this woman from outset and when you posted (without explanation) that life was "stirring again" it came across as a mixed message that you really didn't care about her but from your post it seems as though your first months of married life have been hell. She is lashing out at the moment trying to justify her situation. Maybe she is bipolar? Maybe a lot of resentment? Sometimes a disloyal spouse is so secretive that the loyal spouse is shocked when everything comes pouring out and it becomes nasty. Has she a history of blaming everyone but herself?


----------



## seeking sanity

Respectfully Andrew, your wife is more or less following the infidelity script. I think it's more human nature than a specific failing unique to her. And based on what you've written, you are stung by this, but not particularly devastated, which tells me you weren't THAT invested in the relationship.

You can undertake a campaign to further hurt her as Eli-Zor is suggesting, or just get on with your life. What's the saying about digging two graves when plotting revenge? Be the bigger person, and realize she's a damaged human being who, for whatever pshycologically make up, can't/won't take responsibility. She probably deserves your pity more than your rage.


----------



## michzz

seeking sanity said:


> Respectfully Andrew, your wife is more or less following the infidelity script. I think it's more human nature than a specific failing unique to her. And based on what you've written, you are stung by this, but not particularly devastated, which tells me you weren't THAT invested in the relationship.
> 
> You can undertake a campaign to further hurt her as Eli-Zor is suggesting, or just get on with your life. What's the saying about digging two graves when plotting revenge? Be the bigger person, and realize she's a damaged human being who, for whatever pshycologically make up, can't/won't take responsibility. She probably deserves your pity more than your rage.


I get the impression he is deeply hurt, but needing to protect himself emotionally.

Pity may follow rage, but rage and grief first.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Excuse me "Undertake a campain to future hurt her" , where is his WW hurting, she has been caught in an affair, this option gives Andrew the choice to breaking the affair and when his head is clear and should his wife show true remorse he can decide if he wants to recover the marriage. It furthermore allows him to set the record straight before she tries to destroy his good name.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## twotimeloser

Andrew2011 said:


> The drama continues today.... I awoke today to find two emails from her, one about perception not always being reality in relationships, and the second a rant about my motivations to get away to a hotel – a tryst with a new girlfriend, perhaps?


Just a reminder that a thief always looks over his shoulder because he knows people like him are out there... Normal people dont live that way.

The accusation is nothing more than her own guilt projected onto you. Your only response to that that should be " No, I do not cheat on someone I am married to, That would be you"

I'm sure she felt good as the thief... She was in control, she had power over you, and now that she sees you walking she morns the loss of that power. DO NOT mistake it for effort. The best thing that can happen for her own emotional healing, is for you to question yourself and give justification to her actions.

Let her be "Carlo's Problem". 


@ Michzz - 
Rage is the phase where the clearest thinking happens, because you are devoid of all self loathing. I am not saying that Rage is the answer to all problems, but in an Affair, Rage DEFFINATELY has its purpose.

@ Elizor -
I half agree with you. He needs to plan, and to execute that plan, but with No-Fault laws, It serves no real purpose to compound a file unless he presented it at a custody hearing * he has no kids here*. 

@ Andrew - 

You got plenty of support here, just keep truckin'.


----------



## Lazarus

Xena said:


> Hee hee hee. I've been watching this thread, as I'm sure so many others have. Waiting for you to kick her up the arse (so to speak). It's so fun to see a LS who isn't broken up and tormented and downtrodden...inspiration to us all! Well done! If I was there, I would buy you a drink and shake your hand.


Are you challenging your disloyal partner for cheating on the internet in the same way? 

I think people have to be careful about laughing or goading others into actions that can have devasting long term life changing consequences. 

In just 10 months of marriage this man has learned some terrible things about his wife. I just hope he gives himself some time to let the dust settle before rushing off into the sunset too quickly as he seems to be doing. 

We are discussing two people's lives and at least Andrew has said he still loves this women but, he seems shocked and is trying to protect himself and live within his own standards. 

Relationships are about give and take and it is wrong for any spouse or partner to cheat behind another's back without being taken to task, or suffering some backlash or consequences. Otherwise, a LS can set themself up to be seen as a doormat where the responsibility for a disloyal's behaviour is shifted onto another person, usually the OW/OM instead of tackling the disloyal's unacceptable behaviour. At the moment she is blame shifting as opposed to accepting responsibility and is following the well trodden path of infidelity behaviour during disclosure.


----------



## twotimeloser

Lazarus said:


> Are you challenging your disloyal partner for cheating on the internet in the same way?
> 
> I think people have to be careful about laughing or goading others into actions that can have devasting long term life changing consequences.
> 
> In just 10 months of marriage this man has learned some terrible things about his wife. I just hope he gives himself some time to let the dust settle before rushing off into the sunset too quickly as he seems to be doing.
> 
> We are discussing two people's lives and at least Andrew has said he still loves this women but, he seems shocked and is trying to protect himself and live within his own standards.
> 
> Relationships are about give and take and it is wrong for any spouse or partner to cheat behind another's back without being taken to task, or suffering some backlash or consequences. Otherwise, a LS can set themself up to be seen as a doormat where the responsibility for a disloyal's behaviour is shifted onto another person, usually the OW/OM instead of tackling the disloyal's unacceptable behaviour. At the moment she is blame shifting as opposed to accepting responsibility and is following the well trodden path of infidelity behaviour during disclosure.


I think what Xena means, is that it is nice to see a person handle everything right for once. It is empowering to see a person who has made steps to process things in a logical manner without over-disecting the emotional problems.

It would be no different if a person in an OPPOSITE scenario had done everything right to save his/her marriage. 

What do we crave most after an affair? DATA. how, when, where, who, can i save... should i save.. what happens now...

Half the time we get data, then put in "but what if..." and thent he data becomes corrupt. IMHO, ANdrew is getting a lot of Data, and taking that information to form an action plan. Ultimately he will make his own choice, given the data. Just like buying a car. Everyone has their favorite car, but that doesnt mean there is a "best car" for humanity. 

Yes i did just say that. lol


----------



## seeking sanity

Eli-Zor said:


> Excuse me "Undertake a campain to future hurt her" , where is his WW hurting, she has been caught in an affair, this option gives Andrew the choice to breaking the affair and when his head is clear and should his wife show true remorse he can decide if he wants to recover the marriage. It furthermore allows him to set the record straight before she tries to destroy his good name.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fair enough, poor choice of language on my part. 

My point is that it's a short marriage, no kids, and he seems okay with moving on. Disclosure to friends and family is a tactic to try and end an affair where the betrayed spouse wants to reconcile. You're advocating it as a way of getting revenge, which is not healthy.


----------



## twotimeloser

On revenge...

Not healthy. but living a good life is the best revenge you will get. 

Im not gonna lie, It feels great knowing i am living a great life and my first wife is not. Now I didnt do anything to make her life that way, but I'd like to think that the guy upstairs gave me the "nod" on that one.


----------



## turnera

andrew, if you don't want her back, there's no point exposing. Unless she is going out and besmirching your name, in which case you're perfectly warranted in sharing the 'good news' with those people about what she's really up to.


----------



## Andrew2011

Yesterday my DS begged me to meet with her to "talk things over". I reiterated my request that for us to have any sort of meaningful discussion, she would have to admit what has happened -- no more lies. 

She said she did have a lot to tell me, so I agreed to meet her for a cup of coffee. She tried to upgrade the meeting to a long lunch excursion in a fancy place, but I declined. We met at a simple cafe. (I just had a cappuccino and a water.)

What she gave me was a disappointing camouflage onslaught: that she loved me and that I was mistaken about "Carlo" -- she has never stepped out on me.

So I again asked about her emotional unavailability and irritability over the past two months, the emails, the texts, the secret hotel receipts, the date-stamped photo of shirtless "Carlo" on a bed next to her distinctive suitcase. Still evasion, still all my imagination. (!!!) I haven't shown her copies yet, apart from the one photo of "Carlo", but I had put more than enough facts on the table so that she has to know she has been truly "found out".

She even said that to "prove it" to me, she'd like to have our child as soon as we can do it. She tried to smother me with kisses and hugs.

She put on an excellent performance. I nearly fell for it.

I told her again that I cannot live in a marriage of three people, or with a wife I cannot trust, and for us to have any meaningful discussion, she'd have to come clean. Of course I would be upset, but I promised not to be angry. I told her I know more about what has been going on than she might suppose, so much of it won't be a shock any more.

She didn't take me up on my offer, choosing to instead call me "cold" and "unemotional". The only time it got tough was when I said the truth will come out in the legal process eventually, so it would be better now than then. Of course, legal papers are public documents, and while I wouldn't be advertising them beyond the family, anyone can have access to them.

The threat of "public" exposure seems to worried her somehow. She then tried to misconstrue this as about me being after her money or wanting to punish "Carlo" out of misplaced jealousy. While I did say that I wouldn't mind seeing "Carlo" suffer the legal equivalent of a punch in the nose, I stressed that I really wasn't after anything from her other than the truth and a mutually respectful separation and disentanglement. She doesn't seem to get this.

She wrote me a long, rambling and emotional email today that was both hot and cold. I responded with a nice but cool and succinct reiteration of where we are and why, that I am leaving town, that if we can show each other some basic respect, the process doesn't have to be so problematic or embarrassing for everyone.

I am still shaking my head in a combination of incredulity, sadness, frustration and hurt. The fact she still can't admit what has happened -- even in one sentence, without gory details -- is truly beyond my comprehension.

I also don't know how she can profess to want me back so passionately when she basically treated me like dirt for two months and had such emotion and passion with "Carlo". Something is unauthentic here, to say the least. Maybe everything is fake.

I am getting very fatigued at this continued emotional whiplash.

I am continuing on the course towards formal separation.


----------



## lpycb42

Lazarus said:


> This indicates to me that either you never really loved her, or you are acting out of hurt. Maybe both?
> 
> She's treated you abominably as often is the case when a disloyal spouse cheats on a loyal spouse. Betrayal is her way to handle an issue. Shows poor character. Look at history. Those who betray are usually shown nothing but contempt. That is maybe where you are right now?


That's what I was going to say. You can only hurt people so much until they stop respecting you. Once you lose someone's respect, you lose their love.

Good for you Andrew! I respect people who are able to see reality instead of being set on winning their SO's back. If only you were 20 years younger... 

Anyway this woman is obviously a compulsive liar and mentally unstable, so the best thing you can do is steer clear. Stay as far away from her as possible.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Why would a cheating spouse not treat you abominably? That's their nature. I've never understood why people think that their cheating spouse should be a kind reasonable humane compassionate person in every other dimension. I mean other than THAT, Mrs. Kennedy, how was the motorcade?


----------



## Lazarus

Andrew2011 said:


> ...... that she loved me and that I was mistaken about "Carlo" -- she has never stepped out on me.
> 
> She even said that to "prove it" to me, she'd like to have our child as soon as we can do it. She tried to smother me with kisses and hugs.
> 
> She put on an excellent performance. I nearly fell for it.
> .


That's not proof. Ask for a meeting with Carlo his wife and both of you to prove their fidelity...or infidelity. 



Andrew2011 said:


> ... call me "cold" and "unemotional". .


 Blame shifting
...typical behaviour of a disloyal spouse.



Andrew2011 said:


> The threat of "public" exposure seems to worried her somehow. She then tried to misconstrue this as about me being after her money or wanting to punish "Carlo" out of misplaced jealousy.
> .


Worried because her lies will be exposed and blame shifting...again.




Andrew2011 said:


> I stressed that I really wasn't after anything from her other than the truth and a mutually respectful separation and disentanglement. She doesn't seem to get this.
> .


In the fog? Your statement also express you don't seem to want her so she goes on the defensive.




Andrew2011 said:


> She wrote me a long, rambling and emotional email today that was both hot and cold. .


It would be good for other disloyals to voice their views on why some disloyals blow hot and cold with mixed messages. Are disloyals mentally agitated and in a state of mental anguish and cognitive impairment when exposed and is there a build up of mental ill heath because of all the lying and betrayal during the affair?



Andrew2011 said:


> I am getting very fatigued at this continued emotional whiplash.
> 
> I am continuing on the course towards formal separation.


Give yourself time. Look at Jar's thread - he didn't get fatigued within days after exposure. Patience is needed Andrew. You are hurt naturally. Stay on your path if that is what you want to do but make sure you don't regret never having given her time to come clean. She is probably in shock because she thought she could have her cake and eat it and now she's been caught and you maybe experiencing a Jekyll and Hyde effect that some disloyals seem to go through.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Whatever you do Andrew do not let her walk over you, being nice does not say let her abuse you. I still say tell her parents, family and a couple of good friends of the affair,do not mess about with the words and mention the OM by name. Keep to a high level summary of the evidence, the evidence is not open to debate and scrutiny, they can deal with her so you can focus on what you want.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, you might want to give her folks a call and let them know ahead of time why you'll be separating. She will be SURE to tell them that YOU are evil, abusive, cheating, whatever she can think of to put ALL the blame on you so that nothing you say will be believed.


----------



## seeking sanity

The thing to understand is that active affairs are like addictions. Addicts do all sorts of insane things to keep their addiction going. She's on script as far as denial and deflection goes. Until she comes down from the addiction and hits bottom, expect more of the same.

Like I said before, if you want to salvage the relationship, you can help accelerate her hitting bottom by disclosing to family, certainly to the OM's wife, if he has one, and being unavailable. If you are ready to be done with the relationship, then I'd just continue on the steps you are taking to move on.

Given the relatively short marriage, no kids, and your ages, I wouldn't personally put in the effort to fix it. What's the point? It's different after a long marriage with many emotional/financial/logistical entanglements.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Andrew2011 said:


> Yesterday my DS begged me to meet with her to "talk things over". I reiterated my request that for us to have any sort of meaningful discussion, she would have to admit what has happened -- no more lies.


Did you really expect her not to lie? 



> She said she did have a lot to tell me, so I agreed to meet her for a cup of coffee. She tried to upgrade the meeting to a long lunch excursion in a fancy place, but I declined. We met at a simple cafe. (I just had a cappuccino and a water.)


Was it Starbucks?



> What she gave me was a disappointing camouflage onslaught: that she loved me and that I was mistaken about "Carlo" -- she has never stepped out on me.


If she loved you, you wouldn't have gotten to this point, at least, not this quickly. 



> So I again asked about her emotional unavailability and irritability over the past two months, the emails, the texts, the secret hotel receipts, the date-stamped photo of shirtless "Carlo" on a bed next to her distinctive suitcase. Still evasion, still all my imagination. (!!!) I haven't shown her copies yet, apart from the one photo of "Carlo", but I had put more than enough facts on the table so that she has to know she has been truly "found out".


You should've showed them to her, maybe the conversation would've been a bit more productive. 



> She even said that to "prove it" to me, she'd like to have our child as soon as we can do it. She tried to smother me with kisses and hugs.
> 
> She put on an excellent performance. I nearly fell for it.


Don't you let her have a child for you, for your sake and the kid's. You will never rid yourself of her and the kid will grow unbalanced.



> I told her again that I cannot live in a marriage of three people, or with a wife I cannot trust, and for us to have any meaningful discussion, she'd have to come clean. Of course I would be upset, but I promised not to be angry. I told her I know more about what has been going on than she might suppose, so much of it won't be a shock any more.


You should never promise not to be angry, not matter what the situation. If you have to promise not to be angry, whatever you're about to hear will no doubt make you angry. 



> She didn't take me up on my offer, choosing to instead call me "cold" and "unemotional". The only time it got tough was when I said the truth will come out in the legal process eventually, so it would be better now than then. Of course, legal papers are public documents, and while I wouldn't be advertising them beyond the family, anyone can have access to them.


It likely will have to get to this point and you know what, as far as she's concerned, it's going to be all your fault. 



> The threat of "public" exposure seems to worried her somehow. She then tried to misconstrue this as about me being after her money or wanting to punish "Carlo" out of misplaced jealousy. While I did say that I wouldn't mind seeing "Carlo" suffer the legal equivalent of a punch in the nose, I stressed that I really wasn't after anything from her other than the truth and a mutually respectful separation and disentanglement. She doesn't seem to get this.


Don't you make a good bit of money? I'm curious, at this point, are you bringing up Carlo or is she? 



> She wrote me a long, rambling and emotional email today that was both hot and cold. I responded with a nice but cool and succinct reiteration of where we are and why, that I am leaving town, that if we can show each other some basic respect, the process doesn't have to be so problematic or embarrassing for everyone.


Wow, someone's actually skipped town. That's not what she wants and I think you know that. She wants this to be messy.



> I am still shaking my head in a combination of incredulity, sadness, frustration and hurt. The fact she still can't admit what has happened -- even in one sentence, without gory details -- is truly beyond my comprehension.
> 
> I also don't know how she can profess to want me back so passionately when she basically treated me like dirt for two months and had such emotion and passion with "Carlo". Something is unauthentic here, to say the least. Maybe everything is fake.


I think I have a bead on the "little lady," I've talked about hitting bottom a few times and I think she has. The difference with her is that, while I believe that hitting bottom is a tool to force you to pull yourself up, it's where she wants to be. She doesn't want to become something more, doesn't want to evolve. She just wants to sit there with the vile retches such as Carlo, I don't know if there's been any past trauma but she doesn't have any real feelings for you because she doesn't want to feel anything real. She wants to sit there with Carlo and sport **** not make love, she wants to clash not connect, she wants to scream not talk. You offered her to come clean and won't bring herself to do it, you've done what you can. 
I am getting very fatigued at this continued emotional whiplash.

I am continuing on the course towards formal separation.


----------



## twotimeloser

Andrew,

I say this with every fiber in my being....

SELL SELL SELL.

The stock is going south and the closing bell is about to be rung.

You know how some people forget about their 401k sometimes, if they were with a company for a short period? Well thats ok, as long as they werent with the company for 20 years.

You may never see your initial investment back, but you dont want to pour anything more into it. My advice... diversify and invest in other options so that you arent tanked by one stock.

No, seriously.. drop the chicky.

i cant believe she pulled the "let's make babies" thing on ya.. You need to make a T-Shirt that says " Lets make babies" and wear it to your first court appearence.


----------



## Andrew2011

Well, I left town last night, with my important luggage. (I'll be back in two weeks for a logistical visit, staying in the hotel.)

This has been another very strange week. Again, she can't seem to understand what I am doing -- it's not in her game-plan.

She calls and texts me literally 25 times a day, alternatively nice, questioning, and aggressive. I pick up about every 5th time (if I am not doing anything else) and respond in a civil manner, even throwing in a few ordinary pleasantries. 

After she berates me for not wanting to talk to "your wife" and the usual charge of being cold and "incommunicative", she then seems to want to talk. This usually means (again) telling me she can't talk to me. (Isn't that a wonderful paradox -- call someone to give him heck that you can't talk to him!)

Last night she knew I was going to the airport for the red-eye back east, so she offered to give me a lift there. I said no thanks, but if she wanted to meet in the cafe of the hotel for a bit before I left, I could do that. She said she didn't want to be slotted into my life like a business appointment. I said fine, I wouldn't trouble her then.

She did show up early, almost demanding to take me to the airport. We sat down at the cafe, talked (mostly calmly) at each other for an hour. She said nothing of interest, just aggressive defensiveness, how I was leaving for no reason at all. When I tried to tell her that it appears that we have some big problems in our marriage that would be very difficult to resolve, she acted more like a prosecuting attorney than someone who would like to accept some joint responsibility and gain clarity. I again declined her offer to take me to the airport, almost having to push her away from my luggage. Even in the taxi she called me twice to ask to come back and let her drive me.

Today I am back in my old home, and the phone calls and texts started early. Again, alternatively warm and cold, calm and aggressive. And the main theme is how uncommunicative I am, with some threat that she has lost her patience with me and won't bother calling me again. I am not biting at this provocation.

She continues to deny anything but casual conversation with Carlo.

Rarely in any of this does she ever say anything like "I am sorry for what I have done. I obviously have hurt you and our relationship significantly. Whatever happens, I hope you know that I realize I was stupid, etc etc.". I know I will never hear this, and I am not holding my breath. What I am feeling, what my situation is, haven't seemed that important in our marriage.

But this whole month long episode of "I hate you -- don't leave me" sounds an awful lot like the "borderline personality disorder" set out in the book by the same name (that I just found on Amazon). I thought she was just shallow, a cheater, didn't love me, and/or had some major emotional baggage issues. I now wonder whether she has much bigger psychological problems.

Just as a small example, has anyone else ever dealt with a person who gets worked up, professes a strong desire to talk, but doesn't listen and only offers judgments and pronouncements, and then condemns YOU for being impossible to talk to? What's the psychosis here?

Needless to say, I am still feeling rattled, and hurt, but while I am at a complete loss to comprehend what has been happening, I am much less confused than I was 10 days ago.


----------



## Affaircare

I have a phrase that I would like you to memorize, Andrew. It will put an end to all her texting, calling and emailing. 

Literally EVERY time that she communicates with you in any way, reply (here's the phrase to memorize): "_I will only have a spouse in my life who will give ALL of their affection and loyalty only to me--as promised in the marriage vows. Are you ready to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty? Oh, you're not? Contact when you are--goodbye._" CLICK! (turn off the cell for a while).

I know it's not rational or reasonable but it is EXTREMELY rare for a disloyal spouse to admit that what they've done is wrong or apologize WHILE they are in their fog (see this EXCELLENT thread by Pit-of-my-stomach about what fog is: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html ). While she is still addicted she can and will do anything she can to try to snag you, trick you, manipulate you, or control you back into "the way it was" so she can have her cake and eat it too. 

So every single time she calls, texts, emails etc. send her the exact same message: 

_"I will only have a spouse in my life who will give ALL of their affection and loyalty only to me--as promised in the marriage vows. Are you ready to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty? Oh, you're not? Contact when you are--goodbye." _*CLICK*.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Leave her alone, let the lawyers handle it. I wouldn't even respond to her when she contacts you anymore except for one last time to say, "Don't call me, I'll call you."

I wonder why the hell was she so intent on driving you? Curious.


----------



## michzz

Andrew2011 said:


> After she berates me for not wanting to talk to "your wife" and the usual charge of being cold and "incommunicative", she then seems to want to talk. This usually means (again) telling me she can't talk to me. (Isn't that a wonderful paradox -- call someone to give him heck that you can't talk to him!)


This illustrates how nuts the situation is. She want to pull the "your wife" card?

Seriously? As if she has earned some kind of deference by screwing around on "her husband"?

Seriously.


----------



## Andrew2011

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> I wonder why the hell was she so intent on driving you? Curious.


Beats me too!

The only reason I can think of is the "control" issue. Looking back, she has been a minor-league control freak with me since before we got married. Maybe this is her way of seeming to maintain some control over a situation that is slipping seriously and permanently out of her hands ...


----------



## Andrew2011

michzz said:


> This illustrates how nuts the situation is. She want to pull the "your wife" card?
> 
> Seriously? As if she has earned some kind of deference by screwing around on "her husband"?
> 
> Seriously.


Well, it's all very consistent in her head: she didn't cheat, the emails and photos were from three years ago (even though they were date-stamped Dec 2010 and Jan 2011!), she happened upon the beach hotel on a Saturday night when she was depressed and went for a drive (three hours away! -- and what about that expensive dinner?). So it's all my imagination. She swears that she never saw "Carlo" that weekend.

And then, what the hell was I doing looking through all of her electronics! What an invasion of privacy! What a paranoid creep I am!

So the faux loyal wife suffers at an inexplicable communication gap with her husband ...


----------



## Wolf359

Most of the time I say, try to work it out, some way some how. I feel very strongly that she is very sick in the head. If I were you I would talk to people in her past. Ask some info on what they think about her mind. I say run do not walk to the lawyers, and file now, right now. She needs help, it's just that, you can't help her with this. I think she needs major inpatient treatment. Its not just the cheating, and you know this now. I have a very strong 5th sense about this. It's screaming at me , she maybe up to something bad. Look out, I think you should not be with her alone right now. She is the kind of person so lie to other people about s**t that never went on.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

wolf359 said:


> I have a very strong 5th sense about this. It's screaming at me , she maybe up to something bad. Look out, I think you should not be with her alone right now. She is the kind of person so lie to other people about s**t that never went on.


And that's why I say don't respond to her, you'll contact her if you have something to say or the lawyers will. This way, she can't set anything up or ensnare you. Hell, she just may do something like come out to where you are, be on guard for that as well. 

In regards to her history, I've said it before, her family's reaction to your relationship will tell you all you need to know. You said that she was estranged from her brother and father, Andrew2011, was it a case of them being bad people or do you get the sense that they're well balanced but just don't communicate?


----------



## Andrew2011

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> In regards to her history, I've said it before, her family's reaction to your relationship will tell you all you need to know. You said that she was estranged from her brother and father, Andrew2011, was it a case of them being bad people or do you get the sense that they're well balanced but just don't communicate?


I have only met father and brother once, and they actually seemed ok. The dad screwed around on the mother and left the family when my wife was young, so he is hardly a role model of anything. But he doesn't seem like a complete jerk or a nut-case. The brother is more difficult to assess, he and my wife had some mysterious falling out some 10-15 years ago and have barely talked. (Maybe she turned on him?) He didn't seem crazy when I met him. Certainly I have met the wife of the brother on two social occasions and she seems very real, normal and warm, and she and the brother clearly get along wonderfully, so that has to be some positive reflection on the brother.

But the common denominator of all of my wife's family relationships can be expressed in two almost inconsistent words: SHALLOW and DRAMATIC.

I don't know if I will be able to get any useful information from any of these family members.

And with her professional colleagues, she puts on an amazingly charming and disciplined face -- almost like she is acting, or is in relief mode from real life. They seem to love her. But it's all kind of superficial or two-dimensional with them. I doubt many of them will see any more than a few cracks in the mask of Dr Jekyll.

I spoke with one of her senior professional colleagues (with whom I became friendly over the year) about her stepping out on our marriage, just to put a stake in the ground when she starts a disinformation campaign against me. 

He was very sympathetic, surprised but perhaps not shocked. I told him that it was difficult for her to admit to the truth. He didn't say anything about her character, but did concur completely that without truth there is nothing.

Unfortunately, the best data points I have are the non-existent ones: the series of apparent healthy, deep, normal relationships that people build up in a life, but that she DOESN'T appear to have. For her, I count two (2) or three (3) at most. But even those could have been situational too, easy for her to compartmentalize and manage.

The only people who seem to have been let into the interior of her maze have been "Carlo", "George" and me. As I have previously mentioned, those two guys wouldn't win any awards for stability or decency themselves.


----------



## twotimeloser

Andrew, 

Seeing as you are still communiating with her, on a very low level... it may be worth your while to answer her next phone call like this :

"Hey, I know that you have a lot to say and that you are not happy with the way this is going, but you should be aware that we are in a place where communication is not productive. Next time you call, if you want to start by accepting some responsibility, I might be more inclined to listen to what you have to say. As it stands, I am not really interested."

And at that point, thank her for calling, and say good bye.

you will either get a call from her, or you wont.


----------



## Andrew2011

twotimeloser said:


> "Next time you call, if you want to start by accepting some responsibility, I might be more inclined to listen to what you have to say.


Actually, I tried that twice. She said "accept responsibility for what"? When I told her, she said, "I can't accept responsibility for something that didn't happen!"

I have a major case of delusion/denial/fog-bound person here. I am not trying to change her any more, she clearly has significant issues with reality.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Andrew2011 said:


> I have only met father and brother once, and they actually seemed ok. The dad screwed around on the mother and left the family when my wife was young, so he is hardly a role model of anything. But he doesn't seem like a complete jerk or a nut-case. The brother is more difficult to assess, he and my wife had some mysterious falling out some 10-15 years ago and have barely talked. (Maybe she turned on him?) He didn't seem crazy when I met him. Certainly I have met the wife of the brother on two social occasions and she seems very real, normal and warm, and she and the brother clearly get along wonderfully, so that has to be some positive reflection on the brother.


Was she old enough to conceive what happened with her parents? Her brother, that's interesting mostly because it's mysterious. Her age when her father left and the type of falling out she had with her brother will tell you a lot more about her. Does it seem as if her mother may have been male bashing at one point or another to her daughter?



Andrew2011 said:


> But the common denominator of all of my wife's family relationships can be expressed in two almost inconsistent words: SHALLOW and DRAMATIC.


That says a lot, she's either in with both feet and but there a lot of friction or she wants nothing to do with that person. How do the other people in the dramatic relationships seem? 



Andrew2011 said:


> I don't know if I will be able to get any useful information from any of these family members.


If you're serious about divorce, I wouldn't bother to pry unless you need to build a case for her mental/emotional stability.



Andrew2011 said:


> And with her professional colleagues, she puts on an amazingly charming and disciplined face -- almost like she is acting, or is in relief mode from real life. They seem to love her. But it's all kind of superficial or two-dimensional with them. I doubt many of them will see any more than a few cracks in the mask of Dr Jekyll.


That's not surprising, she'll want to put on a facade for those at work. If for nothing else, it makes work a bit easier if people don't think you're nuts. Simple Truth 



Andrew2011 said:


> I spoke with one of her senior professional colleagues (with whom I became friendly over the year) about her stepping out on our marriage, just to put a stake in the ground when she starts a disinformation campaign against me.
> 
> He was very sympathetic, surprised but perhaps not shocked. I told him that it was difficult for her to admit to the truth. He didn't say anything about her character, but did concur completely that without truth there is nothing.


Well, in this day and age, would divorce really shock you anymore? He may have been looking under the guise that she was happy and assumed that you both were happy since he'd likely see more of her than you. 



Andrew2011 said:


> Unfortunately, the best data points I have are the non-existent ones: the series of apparent healthy, deep, normal relationships that people build up in a life, but that she DOESN'T appear to have. For her, I count two (2) or three (3) at most. But even those could have been situational too, easy for her to compartmentalize and manage.
> 
> The only people who seem to have been let into the interior of her maze have been "Carlo", "George" and me. As I have previously mentioned, those two guys wouldn't win any awards for stability or decency themselves.


George? Please tell me he was before the marriage.


----------



## Andrew2011

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Was she old enough to conceive what happened with her parents? Her brother, that's interesting mostly because it's mysterious. Her age when her father left and the type of falling out she had with her brother will tell you a lot more about her. Does it seem as if her mother may have been male bashing at one point or another to her daughter?
> ....
> George? Please tell me he was before the marriage.


She was just a toddler, so didn't have any idea what was going on with her parents, although she certainly felt the absence of dad growing up.

Her mother strikes me as being kind, if a little jaded (no surprise), so she might have done some inadvertent male-bashing.

With regard to George, he was out four years or so before the marriage. See post #22 above.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Andrew2011 said:


> She was just a toddler, so didn't have any idea what was going on with her parents, although she certainly felt the absence of dad growing up.
> 
> Her mother strikes me as being kind, if a little jaded (no surprise), so she might have done some inadvertent male-bashing.
> 
> With regard to George, he was out four years or so before the marriage. See post #22 above.


Did she have any men around growing up to learn how to interact with a man? 

She may have picked up on her mother's jaded views, even if she wasn't sending her the signals directly.


----------



## Andrew2011

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Did she have any men around growing up to learn how to interact with a man?


No, apart from her brother (who doesn't count), there doesn't appear to have been any man around.

I am not a psychologist, so can't say exactly what's going on in her head -- but she has major relationship "issues" for sure. I only wish I had picked up on their existence earlier ...


----------



## Atholk

Andrew2011 said:


> She even said that to "prove it" to me, she'd like to have our child as soon as we can do it. She tried to smother me with kisses and hugs.


If you have sex with her again, she _will _be attempting to get pregnant to entrap you.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Andrew2011 said:


> No, apart from her brother (who doesn't count), there doesn't appear to have been any man around.
> 
> I am not a psychologist, so can't say exactly what's going on in her head -- but she has major relationship "issues" for sure. I only wish I had picked up on their existence earlier ...


I don't think she's crazy, I mean we're all crazy, she's just never learned how to form a proper relationship since she's had no template growing up, her parent's for example. This may have affected the one's she's had with men the most since her father was absent, I wouldn't be surprised if Carlo hasn't been put through the same paces as well. Too bad you two can't compare notes. Still, this doesn't excuse anything, continue to avoid her like the plague.


----------



## sinnister

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> I don't think she's crazy, I mean we're all crazy,* she's just never learned how to form a proper relationship since she's had no template growing up, her parent's for example. * This may have affected the one's she's had with men the most since her father was absent, I wouldn't be surprised if Carlo hasn't been put through the same paces as well. Too bad you two can't compare notes. Still, this doesn't excuse anything, continue to avoid her like the plague.


With all due respect, a rational person does not need a template to have a stable and committed relationsip. There are plenty of people that grow up with cheating and a heck of a whole lot worse going on in their house while growing up and still manage not to be cheaters.

OP: You're handling this amazingly well. You're an inspiration. And while I'm sad that your situation brought you here, I'm happy that you chose to share your story. This is how you handle infidelity, with dignity and strength. A Captain Morgan salute to you sir.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

sinnister said:


> With all due respect, a rational person does not need a template to have a stable and committed relationsip. There are plenty of people that grow up with cheating and a heck of a whole lot worse going on in their house while growing up and still manage not to be cheaters.


I admit it's case by case and I believe it applies in her case, she doesn't know how to form a relationship and we see her situation growing up. A gunshot doesn't kill everyone but, if you die after getting shot, it'd be safe to assume the gunshot killed you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs Chai

sinnister said:


> With all due respect, a rational person does not need a template to have a stable and committed relationsip. There are plenty of people that grow up with cheating and a heck of a whole lot worse going on in their house while growing up and still manage not to be cheaters.
> 
> OP: You're handling this amazingly well. You're an inspiration. And while I'm sad that your situation brought you here, I'm happy that you chose to share your story. This is how you handle infidelity, with dignity and strength. A Captain Morgan salute to you sir.


I concur on both notes. My mother was raised by an alcoholic drunk father and a verbally abusive mother who both like to beat her whenever the opportunity presented itself. She also dealt with other emotionally and physically tormenting things that would tear down another person. But did my mom become like her parent? No she became better than them. She raised four kids with more love and care than either her mother or father had in their pinky finger. And that shows me that you have to CHOOSE how you want to live. 

And also, Andrew, your post is heartening to see how you are handling this heartbreaking ordeal. I am so very sorry that you had to endure this. I wish with all my heart that a beautiful soul like yours didn't have to experience this. Thank you for sharing your story on here and I hope you stay around to get continued support and perhaps bolster others in need as well!


----------



## Andrew2011

Well, already this weekend she has contacted me numerous times "to talk". The conversation follows a now-familiar pattern of alternating between lovey-dovey (from her), then frustration, then some criticism of me (for being "incommunicative", or whatever).

She has made some glimmers of admissions (in passing or by accident) about her recent conduct with "Carlo", which serves to connect any remaining dots I might have had in my mind about what went on. (I didn't have any doubt, but it is good to have some corroboration.)

She is still using ridiculous excuses why date-stamped photos taken by her with shirtless "Carlo" on a bed aren't what they appear to be.

She tried on the "equivalency" tactic, that somehow my shortcomings (real or perceived) or minor things I might have done wrong in the past are equivalent to her stepping outside the marriage. That both of us are imperfect. I quashed that line of discussion instantly.

Then she moved on to assert that I must be having an affair with my assistant/junior team member back at Head Office. Said woman is young, smart, attractive, and we get along great. Because of my location away from Head Office, she and I talk about an hour a day on business, and email constantly with updates, documents, client requests, etc. Never on weekends or evenings unless it's something urgent. My wife is trying to build a pathetic case that this women and I are somehow involved. This woman is happily married, and if she weren't, I wouldn't go for her anyway because she is too young for me, and we work together. And I am married!

My wife is pressuring me to decide what I am going to do.

I told her I don't know yet, I am still trying to get the truth from her. I also told her that I have been very hurt by what she has done. Finally, I said that I think she is emotionally unstable and needs counselling.

She says I have the truth, she is "sorry" for any (unspecified) problem she has caused because "Carlo" is an ex-boyfriend, and that yes, she does have some issues that counselling would improve.

This is "too little, too late" for me. Still not coming clean. Still no empathy.

I told her I wasn't returning for a few weeks, which seemed to surprise her. And of course, I'll be staying in a hotel and for only a few days.

I expect the barrage to continue today ...


----------



## bluesky

Are you launching a full scale investigation into everyone she knows?
Perhaps you should contact her childhood friends and teachers as well.



> I spoke with one of her senior professional colleagues (with whom I became friendly over the year) about her stepping out on our marriage, just to put a stake in the ground when she starts a disinformation campaign against me.


*This is totally uncool, and has potential legal consequences.*


----------



## Eli-Zor

Andrew. Do not fear exposure, the only one who will fear it is your wife. 

Next time she phones you, call her bluff, let her know you are arranging for a polygraph test for her and she has five days to come clean.Do not give her the date, do some research and contact a tester, they will soon bring out the truth. Do not doubt yourself and stop debating with her, you keep the conversation to a few words words and continually remind her she is in an adulterous affair with Carlo, the only way forward is for her to tell the whole truth, that will be verified by a polygraph and for her fully commit to you and the marriage. 

She is turning this on you because you are either enjoying the dialog or you are a sucker for punishment, at this moment you have the edge start using it.

Your requirement for any future conversation is:


1. no contact ever again with the Carlo - she agrees to send him a no contact letter, a template is available from affaircare.com under articles tab, she handwrites this and emails in your presence . Do not dilute the words. 

2. complete transparency - cell phone records, billing details, movements , passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships

4. complete honesty about her affair will Carlo verified by a polygraph 

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage


Send her an email with these requirements , if she calls this is the only conversation you have with her, say goodbye if she digresses. I would suggest you send a copy to the family member you spoke to and ask them for to support your marriage. If she challenges you about being controlling say something like "Yes if you could be trusted and not have an affair then there would be no need for this to protect our marriage, as you well know you are in an affair and these steps are to protect our marriage and apply to both of us. " 

The above it is a proven route forward, the way you are going is fine however you are engaging in conversations without a firm plan and this is going to undermine you and affect your well being.

I agree with RWB, you never leave the marital home, she does.


----------



## Andrew2011

RWB said:


> Why are you leaving your own home?


As explained earlier in this thread, I am returning to my old home back east (which I was about to sell, but have taken it off the market). I only moved out to be with her.

We will sell the new house. I value my sanity more than hanging on to real estate in another city in which I won't be living any more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

> As explained earlier in this thread, I am returning to my old home back east (which I was about to sell, but have taken it off the market). I only moved out to be with her.
> 
> We will sell the new house. I value my sanity more than hanging on to real estate in another city in which I won't be living any more


.

Understood however I still suggest you follow the advice I gave you in my post , you do not know what tomorrow will bring.

Tell the truth to her family, no vague references to a third person, mention his name and that you have hard evidence. All this is designed to allow you to make decisions that that are best for you.


----------



## the guy

Granted this is a pro marriage site, but Andy hasn't invested enough time to work on this marraige. Face it she cheated right of way ...she was looking for a stable & reliable man to raise her child while she went out. 

He caught on quick and will move on... he just wants a confession that he will never get.

That my perspective, maybe I'm wrong?


----------



## Andrew2011

bluesky said:


> Are you launching a full scale investigation into everyone she knows?
> Perhaps you should contact her childhood friends and teachers as well.
> [/B]


LOL And let's not forget the CIA and FBI!


----------



## twotimeloser

I am gonna step out on a limb here, dont hate me for saying this...

But a lot of people know my 3 steps to handling a D... clear state of mind, decision, act on that decision.

Andrew has had a clear consistent mind from day 1, and made a game plan that he is sticking to. I for one am proud of the guy and look forward to his updates as a great example of how to be strong and decisive under adverse circumstances. 

I got no advice for Andrew whatsoever, he is doing everything right in my book.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Andrew2011 said:


> LOL And let's not forget the CIA and FBI!


Just the FBI. The CIA doesn't do background checks. But there are 17 or 18 other domestic agencies which do.


----------



## Wolf359

Atholk said:


> If you have sex with her again, she _will _be attempting to get pregnant to entrap you.






:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Catherine602

Andrew I strongly advise you NOT to consider reconciliation with your wife. The person you see now is the one she really is and my question to you is - if you met this person today, would you enter into a relationship with her. Also consider that she is capable of deception and has a tendency to lie. Moreover she has little capacity for reasonable thought and empathy. No matter what she says, her action speak for her. 

There are many red flags indicating her mental instability and one disturbing thing that she said was she wanted to have a child while she was lying to you. An obvious effort to trap you and continue her affair and horrible treatment of you when she had you where she wanted you. I know this is hard and you are probably tempted to give it another chance if she begins behaving well. Weigh her temporary nice attitude with her bad attitude I think the bad outweighed the good. 

You have probably considered this already but I will say it anyway, don't enter into a monotonous relationship with a cheater, don't marry a women you have not had a commented relationship with consistent contact for at lest 2 years. Watch her relationships with family and friends, watch how she treats others. The way she will treat you will be revealed in the two years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf359

twotimeloser said:


> I am gonna step out on a limb here, dont hate me for saying this...
> 
> But a lot of people know my 3 steps to handling a D... clear state of mind, decision, act on that decision.
> 
> Andrew has had a clear consistent mind from day 1, and made a game plan that he is sticking to. I for one am proud of the guy and look forward to his updates as a great example of how to be strong and decisive under adverse circumstances.
> 
> I got no advice for Andrew whatsoever, he is doing everything right in my book.




:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Affaircare

twotimeloser said:


> I am gonna step out on a limb here, dont hate me for saying this...
> 
> But a lot of people know my 3 steps to handling a D... clear state of mind, decision, act on that decision.
> 
> Andrew has had a clear consistent mind from day 1, and made a game plan that he is sticking to. I for one am proud of the guy and look forward to his updates as a great example of how to be strong and decisive under adverse circumstances.
> 
> I got no advice for Andrew whatsoever, he is doing everything right in my book.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

The MOMENT a loyal spouse discovers infidelity, they have the moral and ethical right, then and there, to say, "I will not be a part of this and I choose the option to divorce." 

This is why the very first thing we ask people is "Do you want to save the marriage?" I am as staunchly pro-marriage as anyone on this site, and I know my reputation supports that here. But if she was unfaithful and he chooses to divorce, that is his right. 

If, by grace or courage or some other personal quality, he decides to work on saving the marriage, then we go to the seven steps. If he's decided to divorce, as is absolutely moral, then we don't need to confront, disclose, expose, Carrot&Stick/Plan A, No Contact/Plan B or file for legal separation. Probably some step one (Gather Evidence) is a good idea just so he has proof there was infidelity and by proof I mean that he can reasonably prove to himself that he can trust himself and it wasn't "all in his head" or his own "trust issues"....it was REAL and it was across the line! Other than that--once the decision is made to divorce, we're done. It's been decided. Move with that clear-headed decision.


----------



## krismimo

Andrew I'm a newbie on here and I humbly can tell you that you are not only a fantastic job in how your handiling it but you are one of the few that is handiling it in a practical and logical sate. No hip jarg about books or fog or pwoplw who are paid by the hour to prolong the process in order to get more of your precious $$$. It will get worse before it gets better and I have this feeloing that she doesn't realize that you might consider leaving her. 

I have been cheated on before and one of the things that droe me nuts was thinking about what he was doing when he was doing it and with whom. So please don't try to go that road just focus on you like your doing. My ex bf trioed his best to make me look crazy even tried to kick me out our own home when i clearly caught him in the act so I can def relate to a lot of things you are saying. Keep your cool like your doing.


----------



## Andrew2011

Thanks, everyone. I am really grateful for your advice and support. I have read through your comments a dozen times.

This experience is excruciating for me, however "logically" I might be handling it. I feel like someone very dear to me has died, that there now is a huge void in my future, that I have failed. At the same time, I am still angry at the way she mistreated me. And her attempts to charm and lie her way back have only compounded my disappointment with her: she is one very emotionally impaired person.

But, as I said earlier, I am also feeling a sense of relief and decompression, of clarity. I have returned to my old home in the other city, and feel like I can get my life back.

I haven't told any of my family or colleagues yet, I will wait a bit longer. I can't deal with any others on this matter right now.


----------



## Powerbane

So does she know where you are? I'm surprised she has not shown up at the old house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Powerbane said:


> So does she know where you are? I'm surprised she has not shown up at the old house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We do know that she doesn't understand boundaries and this is one you've set up so don't be surprised if she encroaches upon it as Powerbane so eloquently put it. I'm with him 100% of the way, she just may pull this number on you.

If she does, DO NOT let her in. If you're so inclined as to hear her out, advise her that you will meet her where there are witnesses. Either a crowded place as you have before or at least a third party that the both of you can trust.


----------



## Andrew2011

RWB said:


> Clarity... Exactly....
> Events, times, people, excuses, arguments, coldness all fell into place. As she continued to lie and make excuses for her actions, it just didn't work for her like before. I had finally been given the Clarity. I could see right through her and saw the real person I had spent my life with.


It really is quite shocking what you see when you change the lens. It kind of hurts a thousand times in retrospect. But at least things now make (almost) perfect sense. The instability/ irrationality/ mystery during the marriage was very corrosive.


----------



## Andrew2011

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> We do know that she doesn't understand boundaries and this is one you've set up so don't be surprised if she encroaches upon it as Powerbane so eloquently put it. I'm with him 100% of the way, she just may pull this number on you.


Yes, she does know exactly where I am. And thanks for the heads up: I actually hadn't thought there was any risk she'd ever come all this way to "talk" to me. Among other things, it would be too much effort for her. I can see now that throughout our relationship she really didn't inconvenience herself too much with anything. Oh sure, she was "fun" and "charming" much of the time, and contributed a lot of easy things to the marriage, but when it came to real inconvenience, I seemed to shoulder that burden.

But I will be on the alert. She's not stepping one foot in this house, I can assure you.


----------



## MrQuatto

Andrew2011 said:


> I actually hadn't thought there was any risk she'd ever come all this way to "talk" to me. Among other things, it would be too much effort for her.


In fact, I think this would be a telling situation. If she did show up, it would be very out of character and might show a desire to finally come clean or do some real work toward the relationship. However, i also think that the damage done is to severe to really reconcile. 

So much depends on the 1st few weeks after "D" day, in my opinion. If my wayward hadn't began steps right away to start making things right, I don't think I would have waited too ling for her and would be divorced right now. 

Q~


----------



## Fordsvt

okeydokie said:


> i wouldnt stick around for another minute, i would be long gone away from her


:iagree:
I would have to agree. Get out quick. She married you and wasn't ready to be married-that's apparent. She won't change and you trying to change her......not going to work
!
You have a good job / good life / your 49 / and can attract ladies in their 30's. Don't waste another moment.
She has been a fallacy all along.


----------



## stumblealong

You doing ok Andrew?? Hope your just being quiet because not much is going on. Or is there too much going on? Hang in there.


----------



## Andrew2011

stumblealong said:


> You doing ok Andrew?? Hope your just being quiet because not much is going on. Or is there too much going on? Hang in there.


Thanks for your concern, Stumble.

I am ok. Things have been weird recently, though. I returned to my old house in the east, which has been the kind of sanctuary I thought it would be. I have been focusing on work, on seeing some old friends and colleagues for low-key social events (without telling them about my marital disaster, yet), and on getting my life in order. I slept 10 hours each night on the weekend. I have met with the lawyer twice, and paper is being produced. I am still feeling down, but also enjoying the liberty from oppression.

My wife has been actively trying to contact me many times a day, by phone, text, and email. I usually don't pick up or respond, unless it is a domestic "business" question I do need to quickly deal with. But I do speak with her briefly about once every two days just to keep the long-distance communication open.

Her reaction and tone is very strange: she shifts between being warm, fun and lovey-dovey (as if nothing had happened) to being accusatory. Oh, so you didn't answer me all evening! You must have been out with your pretty assistant! 

On the next call or note, she'll talk about how great it would be if my parents were to come out and join us for Christmas. Soon afterwards, it's "well, we'll have to sell the house, I have no interest in it anymore". "I miss you!!" And then "What kind of insensitive man are you to leave your wife all alone." "I love you, you're a wonderful man", and then "you can't communicate".

She still denies that anything happened between her and "Carlo". I just tell her -- for the 50th time -- that the evidence (including photographic) says otherwise, and she is not telling me the truth. This discussion goes nowhere, but I remind her I could not live in a marriage with three people.

I am not being taking in with all this, I just find it sad and wearing. The hot-and-cold, I-hate-you-but-don't-leave-us, flip-flopping. Doesn't she get fatigued with the drama? I just still find it unbelievable that she can't seem to level with me and let us have an honest, adult conversation that is not laced with anger and recriminations, much of it not grounded on fact. While my heart is crushed, and I feel a pervasive sadness and sense of loss, I am not as angry as I was last month -- disappointed and p-o'ed, very, but angry not so much. She seems to be angrier, for some reason. What's all that about? 

Certainly she is finding it convenient to blame my absence on my allegedly deep-seated disability in communication. (As in, "See, this is exactly why we had problems in our marriage. You can't communicate! You've run off and disappeared!")

No, I am not a glutton for punishment. I will continue to constrain the communication for very good reason. I am going back west next week for a short visit to deal with my affairs there (including local business and personal stuff). I will stay at a hotel. Hopefully the papers will be ready so I can tell her what I am now doing. When I meet her, it will be in a public place, for at most a cup of coffee.

Is it common for the LS to sooner or later find a space of sad tranquility and accept a need to move on with life, with no sharp regrets about their conduct, while the DS starts to fulminate and smoulder behind? I would have thought most DS would either feel: 1) "sorry, but I guess the marriage is really over, good luck to you"; or 2) "I regret having made a mistake and want to try to reconcile". Her ongoing drama is getting almost pathetic.


----------



## twotimeloser

Andrew2011 said:


> .
> 
> Is it common for the LS to sooner or later find a space of sad tranquility and accept a need to move on with life, with no sharp regrets about their conduct, while the DS starts to fulminate and smoulder behind? I would have thought most DS would either feel: 1) "sorry, but I guess the marriage is really over, good luck to you"; or 2) "I regret having made a mistake and want to try to reconcile". Her ongoing drama is getting almost pathetic.


I would have to say it is rare, but then again so is your direct methodical approach. Clearly she wants conflict or at least to know you will fight for her.


----------



## Andrew2011

twotimeloser said:


> Clearly she wants conflict or at least to know you will fight for her.


She's almost like the alien entity on that Star Trek episode that feeds on conflict and anger -- and when Capt Kirk and Co. controlled their emotions down to a cool civility, the alien died or left the good ship.

Looking back, the fact that I am a reasonably level-headed and relaxed guy, who didn't get too dramatic or get pulled into fights, seemed to set her off. (Yes, I have strong emotions and can get animated, I just prefer to try to roll with the punches of life, be appreciative for what I have today, and keep my eye on the future.) By contrast, her two previous boyfriends, "Carlo" and "George", are over-heated drama kings with wreckages of relationships.

She would often bait me into getting angry, by strategic passive-aggressive behavior, or just conversation that would turn ugly for no apparent reason. I rarely took the bait, trying to understand what the real issue was -- or if I had let her down or hurt her feelings for any plausible reason. (To continue the Star Trek analogy, I was never an overly cool Mr Spock. I was more like Scotty the engineer than Dr McCoy, though!)

I think I didn't feed her enough conflict and drama, so she went elsewhere to find it. I think she finds my sudden, straightforward, and strong-but-silent reaction to her infidelity to be absolutely baffling.


----------



## seeking sanity

Andrew, ultimately you can judge her or pity her, depending on your view of human nature and our ability to change. If you believe people have control over the psychological make up, then judge her for her strategy of continuing on with lies and deception. If you take the position that people can change a limited amount within their nature, then pity her. She's dealing with this in congruence with her nature. God knows what runs through her mind and how her subconscious is made up. Drama seeking, lying in the face of fact, and the entitlement she seems to project, are all "symptoms of infidelity" and come from deep damage.

Centered, self-aware people admit to their mistakes and make an effort to make ammends when they hurt others. 

Damaged, unaware people avoid, lie, minimize, hide and blame shift.


----------



## cb45

i said it before and i'll say it again......

An, you da man!

now stick to the plan and let her "fry" in d' pan.

no needs to understand.

this wack-wacks been banned.


over n out !


----------



## Andrew2011

seeking sanity said:


> Andrew, ultimately you can judge her or pity her, depending on your view of human nature and our ability to change. ..... Drama seeking, lying in the face of fact, and the entitlement she seems to project, are all "symptoms of infidelity" and come from deep damage.
> 
> Centered, self-aware people admit to their mistakes and make an effort to make ammends when they hurt others.
> 
> Damaged, unaware people avoid, lie, minimize, hide and blame shift.


I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It's probably one of the only real "answers" I am likely to get out of this episode.

I have never experienced anything like this in my life where my partner exhibits such "Drama seeking, lying in the face of fact, and the entitlement". In my previous occasional moments of partnership stress (as in when a girlfriend and I broke up) neither party was delusional, however unhappy or upset either of us might have been: we both dealt with reality and reasonable (if sometimes inconsistent) interpretations of, and inferences from, reality. Sure, there was occasionally anger and "spin", but never serial fact-manipulation and programmatic blame deflection.

I think my wife has some deep-seated issues around empathy, intimacy, stability (including abandonment), and boundaries. It all looks clear to me in retrospect. Why didn't I see this in October 2008 ...

She probably does deserve to be pitied more than anything. But given the hurt she has heaped upon me, it will take a while for me to feel that unalloyed sentiment towards her.


----------



## Andrew2011

cb45 said:


> i said it before and i'll say it again......
> 
> An, you da man!
> 
> now stick to the plan and let her "fry" in d' pan.
> 
> no needs to understand.
> 
> this wack-wacks been banned.
> 
> 
> over n out !


Thank you, cb45.

Pax huic domui!
(Luk 10:5)


----------



## stumblealong

Andrew2011 said:


> I think my wife has some deep-seated issues around empathy, intimacy, stability (including abandonment), and boundaries. It all looks clear to me in retrospect. Why didn't I see this in October 2008 ...
> .


If only we had a crystal ball, wouldn't that solve a lot of life's problems! Of course, predictability gets boring, but in matters of the heart, especially in cases such as yours, a little insight would be nice! Her back and forth behavior is really odd. Drama seems to be what she craves indeed! Looks like she will have that the rest of her life. 

Anger is not a bad thing if handled properly, which you have kept it together very well. You probably will feel somewhat sorry for her in the future, but right now the anger is protecting your heart. The anger will push you forward into a better future. 

Take care Andrew
Stumble


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

stumblealong said:


> If only we had a crystal ball, wouldn't that solve a lot of life's problems! Of course, predictability gets boring, but in matters of the heart, especially in cases such as yours, a little insight would be nice! Her back and forth behavior is really odd. Drama seems to be what she craves indeed! Looks like she will have that the rest of her life.
> 
> Anger is not a bad thing if handled properly, which you have kept it together very well. You probably will feel somewhat sorry for her in the future, but right now the anger is protecting your heart. The anger will push you forward into a better future.
> 
> Take care Andrew
> Stumble


Some say that predictablity is boring in a relationship, I say dependability is important in a relationship. Just like much of the world, it'a a matter of perspective. I think the former view seems the be the twisted state of this relationship and the vast majority of today's relationships. I really don't understand why someone would screw over a person's that's been there for them and tries with all they can to be a good spouse for a "man" that's as big of a ***** as she is. Your ****'s paid for, the guy is always where you need him to be, what's the deal with that?


----------



## stumblealong

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Some say that predictablity is boring in a relationship, I say dependability is important in a relationship. Just like much of the world, it'a a matter of perspective. I think the former view seems the be the twisted state of this relationship and the vast majority of today's relationships. I really don't understand why someone would screw over a person's that's been there for them and tries with all they can to be a good spouse for a "man" that's as big of a ***** as she is. Your ****'s paid for, the guy is always where you need him to be, what's the deal with that?


In a normal state of mind, I would favor predictability over 'not knowing.' But right now in my relationship, it is easy to 'predict' that when I get home my man will be half drunk, only to be completely drunk by the end of the night. A nice un-predictable thing would be that he says to me once i get home "Honey, let's go out and have some fun!" Is he dependable...Well yes he is. He goes to work everyday, he does any of the 'male' roles that need to be done such as fixing car, ect. 

I guess what I'm trying to say that predictability and dependability can have a similar meaning or different one depending on how we look at it. I think I get what you mean though, that some relationships these days focus on the 'wow' factor. That once it gets too 'boring', one partner checks out. I don't really think that is the case in Andrew's situation tho, I think his wife creates drama in her life because it seems to be ingrained into her. She doesn't seem to live in reality, hence the reason she will not fess up. It doesn't jive with HER reality. She wants to believe she is the loving, adoring wife who has been jilted by her 'uncaring' husband. Being a cheater doesn't fit in with what she wants to believe or wants others to believe.


----------



## stumblealong

Andrew2011 said:


> Thanks for your concern, Stumble.
> 
> I am ok. Things have been weird recently, though. I returned to my old house in the east, which has been the kind of sanctuary I thought it would be. I have been focusing on work, on seeing some old friends and colleagues for low-key social events (without telling them about my marital disaster, yet), and on getting my life in order. I slept 10 hours each night on the weekend. I have met with the lawyer twice, and paper is being produced. I am still feeling down, but also enjoying the liberty from oppression.
> 
> My wife has been actively trying to contact me many times a day, by phone, text, and email. I usually don't pick up or respond, unless it is a domestic "business" question I do need to quickly deal with. But I do speak with her briefly about once every two days just to keep the long-distance communication open.
> 
> Her reaction and tone is very strange: she shifts between being warm, fun and lovey-dovey (as if nothing had happened) to being accusatory. Oh, so you didn't answer me all evening! You must have been out with your pretty assistant!
> 
> On the next call or note, she'll talk about how great it would be if my parents were to come out and join us for Christmas. Soon afterwards, it's "well, we'll have to sell the house, I have no interest in it anymore". "I miss you!!" And then "What kind of insensitive man are you to leave your wife all alone." "I love you, you're a wonderful man", and then "you can't communicate".
> 
> She still denies that anything happened between her and "Carlo". I just tell her -- for the 50th time -- that the evidence (including photographic) says otherwise, and she is not telling me the truth. This discussion goes nowhere, but I remind her I could not live in a marriage with three people.
> 
> I am not being taking in with all this, I just find it sad and wearing. The hot-and-cold, I-hate-you-but-don't-leave-us, flip-flopping. Doesn't she get fatigued with the drama? I just still find it unbelievable that she can't seem to level with me and let us have an honest, adult conversation that is not laced with anger and recriminations, much of it not grounded on fact. While my heart is crushed, and I feel a pervasive sadness and sense of loss, I am not as angry as I was last month -- disappointed and p-o'ed, very, but angry not so much. She seems to be angrier, for some reason. What's all that about?
> 
> Certainly she is finding it convenient to blame my absence on my allegedly deep-seated disability in communication. (As in, "See, this is exactly why we had problems in our marriage. You can't communicate! You've run off and disappeared!")
> 
> No, I am not a glutton for punishment. I will continue to constrain the communication for very good reason. I am going back west next week for a short visit to deal with my affairs there (including local business and personal stuff). I will stay at a hotel. Hopefully the papers will be ready so I can tell her what I am now doing. When I meet her, it will be in a public place, for at most a cup of coffee.
> 
> Is it common for the LS to sooner or later find a space of sad tranquility and accept a need to move on with life, with no sharp regrets about their conduct, while the DS starts to fulminate and smoulder behind? I would have thought most DS would either feel: 1) "sorry, but I guess the marriage is really over, good luck to you"; or 2) "I regret having made a mistake and want to try to reconcile". Her ongoing drama is getting almost pathetic.


Hey Andrew- I think she doesn't get fatigued by all this is because she thrives on it. I think she is getting angrier because you are not playing into her fairy tale. She sees herself as this wonderful wife who has done no wrong. She will not admit to the claims of an affair because this doesn't fit into her view of reality. She has shown no signs of remorse for the state of your marriage, because in doing so would mean that your claims are true. Talking about Christmas with your parents shows how out of touch with reality she is. I think this is a reason she was so cold to you when you were alone, but treated you like a king when out in public, she wants to portray how wonderful her life is and how wonderful SHE is. 

I have a family member who sounds so much like your wife it's a little scary. She had everyone convinced of how great a person she is, so very caring and supportive. For some reason I was the one she confided in about all her 'dirty deeds.' The degree that she used and abused people was just unbelievable! I NEVER told anyone of what she told me, because no one would've believed me anyway. She had people so bamboozled that she could be screwing you over and you would never realize it until later when your left scratching your head. Exactly like your situation. She has NEVER, to this day, said an apology or has shown any remorse for the lives she had tainted. And there was a lot of lives she messed up. She has burnt her bridges with our family now that no one wants anything to do with her, so now she plays the 'my family treats me so bad' card, to get others to take care of her. Kinda like your wife playing the 'uncommunicative husband' card.

I think you will find that place of tranquility and I don't think it will be so sad. Like that cliche says 'When one door closes, another opens up." I think this one should be SLAMMED closed! I'm sorry your heart has gotten broken. It will take time to heal, you'll get there.


----------



## Jellybeans

Andrew, did you ever show her the pictures and texts you found? 

All cheaters deny. That's why it's best to confront with the evidence. When I found out my husband was online posting ads looking for sex on dating sites, I printed it out and showed it to him. The look on his face was priceless. He couldn't deny it though he did try to minimize it.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

stumblealong said:


> In a normal state of mind, I would favor predictability over 'not knowing.' But right now in my relationship, it is easy to 'predict' that when I get home my man will be half drunk, only to be completely drunk by the end of the night. A nice un-predictable thing would be that he says to me once i get home "Honey, let's go out and have some fun!" Is he dependable...Well yes he is. He goes to work everyday, he does any of the 'male' roles that need to be done such as fixing car, ect.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say that predictability and dependability can have a similar meaning or different one depending on how we look at it. I think I get what you mean though, that some relationships these days focus on the 'wow' factor. That once it gets too 'boring', one partner checks out. I don't really think that is the case in Andrew's situation tho, I think his wife creates drama in her life because it seems to be ingrained into her. She doesn't seem to live in reality, hence the reason she will not fess up. It doesn't jive with HER reality. She wants to believe she is the loving, adoring wife who has been jilted by her 'uncaring' husband. Being a cheater doesn't fit in with what she wants to believe or wants others to believe.


I think we're both right but you're more right than I am. Sucks about you husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cb45

tks andrew for yer shalom
reminder, as well as affirmation in OUR Gods soverignty.

u know u r not alone in dealing with yer W's behaviors.
she's displaying same ol' same ol' for many posters who've
come n gone (some remain) here at TAM.

not that this realization helps or will help u, but it does take
the wonderment/confusion/focus obsession aspect(s) out of
it all, should u use it as a tool.

i know i constantly have to remind myself about the spiritual
realm whenever my W wigs out, or go's cold for little/no reason.
she'll use every technique under the sun to get her way or the
upper hand in any area of contention between us. it is SOOOO
evil, it is clearly not her that is doing/saying these things, and
contrary/contradictory to what shes said she'd do/say in the past. Trouble is, she doesnt recognize nor seeks to remedy 
the "open door" policy shes estabilished for demons of contention.

sadly, same can be said of me, those few (and fewer still) times
that i let myself have anger outbursts or lose my cool/control/reasoning/patience skills. yet at least the H>S>
shows/teaches/tells me from THESE times/experiences.
IF i remain in the Spirit (after confessing these strongholds)then nothing comes of these "attacks".

its all about Spiritual authority. God gave it to us, thru Jesus
Christ.

i think u know bout these things but, maybe like me, need reminders from time to time.

u should check out Andrew Wommacks site (Everybody)
Gods talkin' thru this man. go see/listen see for yerself.
u can look back on topics going back to 2000 (archives).

i'll try a link for y'all: 2001 TV Broadcasts - Week 2 - Andrew Wommack Ministries

shalom aleichem..........


----------



## Andrew2011

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> I wonder why the hell was she so intent on driving you [to the airport]? Curious.


I now think I know: she was so intent on driving me to the airport to be sure I got there -- and duly skipped Dodge.

I am seeing the same thing in reverse today. She texted me asking for my date and time of arrival in her city. This isn't anything out of the ordinary, as I had told her I was coming back for a quick visit soon. What was strange, however, is that she casually asked if I could send her my e-ticket. 

She has never asked me for an eticket before in the 2.5 years we have known each other. And a very odd thing to request under current circumstances of initial separation.

Given her pattern of lack of self-awareness about what she says (and the information she thereby unknowingly leaks), it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to infer that she really wants to know exactly when I will arrive -- not earlier and not later. Why would that be?

To ensure she can meet me at the airport with a bouquet of flowers as I step out of the gate? Or to ensure that "Carlo" has long been hustled out of the house in the event that I go there directly from the airport?

I'd bet my this year's IRA contribution that it is the latter.


----------



## lpycb42

Andrew I can only wish to handle this as maturely and intelligently as you have, if I'm ever in this situation. As someone else said, I don't think you need any advice, you're dealing with this very problematic, confused individual quite well. You're not letting love blind you and you're thinking rationally. Good for you!


----------



## pidge70

After reading the way your W acts/responds...I'd bet she has BPD, she seems to show all the signs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lpycb42

pidge70 said:


> After reading the way your W acts/responds...I'd bet she has BPD, she seems to show all the signs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually thought that. At the same time, I also think it's just guilty behavior. Have you ever caught a child doing something wrong and they deny deny deny and then they cry and then they make up excuses and pull every trick on the book to "win" you back? She kind of reminds me of this. The reason I don't think it's BPD is because people don't go through ups and downs in the same conversation or same moment (at least not from what I've experienced or seen). During their manic state they have crazy highs that can last a while and then they get severely depressed and self-destructive. Maybe she has a mild case of it... who knows?


----------



## Andrew2011

Jellybeans said:


> Andrew, did you ever show her the pictures and texts you found?
> 
> All cheaters deny. That's why it's best to confront with the evidence. When I found out my husband was online posting ads looking for sex on dating sites, I printed it out and showed it to him. The look on his face was priceless. He couldn't deny it though he did try to minimize it.


I showed her the photos and told her I had copies of the emails and the hotel receipt -- briefly quoting dates and appropriate lines so she knew I had them.

Her reaction shocked me. She didn't do one of: 1) say, "ok, you've got me, let me explain why this happened"; 2) start to cry, hug me, or run away; or 3) say "you bloody bastard" (or similar). Rather, she stared cooly (not coldly) at me, and calmly explained that what I saw wasn't what I saw, and how I, poor guy, in my jealous mind could easily jump to erroneous conclusions. (In other words, as I explained earlier in the thread, it was like "No, that's not my hand in the cookie jar! That's not a hand! That's not a cookie!")

I told her that any one of her explanations stretched credulity, but on all three points, she was being just utterly ridiculous. (So love emails sent and dated in December to "Carlo" aren't love emails sent to "Carlo" in December? So date-stamped photos in January -- in proper order in her camera with other, more innocuous photos -- of shirtless "Carlo" on a bed aren't photos of "Carlo" on a bed? So a beach hotel charge on a weekend when I was away and she said she stayed at home is a fake charge? And there is a lot of stuff I saw but didn't copy that corroborates my conclusions.)

The ease with which she told incredulous lies (hardly skipping a beat, obviously not even reacting with a shred of empathy -- or fear -- at my obvious distraught demeanor) shocked me the most. This was the face of a person I no longer knew. Or maybe I don't exist at all. 

There is something pathological at work here.

At least your husband was normal enough to read plainly the cards that you put squarely in front of him.


----------



## Andrew2011

stumblealong said:


> I have a family member who sounds so much like your wife it's a little scary. She had everyone convinced of how great a person she is, so very caring and supportive. For some reason I was the one she confided in about all her 'dirty deeds.' The degree that she used and abused people was just unbelievable! I NEVER told anyone of what she told me, because no one would've believed me anyway. She had people so bamboozled that she could be screwing you over and you would never realize it until later when your left scratching your head. Exactly like your situation. She has NEVER, to this day, said an apology or has shown any remorse for the lives she had tainted. And there was a lot of lives she messed up. She has burnt her bridges with our family now that no one wants anything to do with her, so now she plays the 'my family treats me so bad' card, to get others to take care of her. Kinda like your wife playing the 'uncommunicative husband' card.


Once again, Stumble, you are onto something. My wife does sound like a twin of your family member. Sorry that you have one too!

My wife seems to live in a parallel universe of perception: we are often not living the same experiences, even when in the same room or car. And I am not talking about normal differences in taste or style. Some small examples. She once turned on a waiter for some perceived small service infraction, and then was overly generous to a beggar on the street. Both reactions were way out-there. She left a fun, one-night family event of mine (where people were being nice to her) to go out to get a late-night ice cream (dragging me along). She selects presents for people that seem to me to be odd. She pretends to be the supreme multi-tasker, super-woman expert on everything, I'll-do-it-cause-I-know-how -- and then when tasks she appropriated don't get done, she forgets how they came to her. When I remind her, she shuts it out. She regularly comes home late from work (legitimately) and conveniently forgets that fact when she chastises me for my alleged absences. She volunteers to pay half our expenses on a vacation (as she should), and then flips out when I give her an estimated tally -- "all you care about is money!"

Like Stumble's family member, my wife looks perfect to the world. She is charming, intelligent and attractive -- everyone, including my parents, thought I had won the lottery. She invests a lot in looking and acting good. She seems to know what to say and when on a very superficial level. I will have a very difficult time explaining to my close friends and family what is happening with our "perfect" marriage.

But they don't see that her warm, lively and jocular face is situational and liable to change suddenly without notice. Personal embarrassment, and risk of feeling inferior, seem to be the only strong emotions she reacts to.

She has a few good colleagues, but as I mentioned, seems to slowly burn through a lot of people. The callousness with which she has treated many people in her life astounds me. For someone of her professional standing, intelligence and apparent social graces, she should have a lot more friends than she does. As it turns out, I have a lot more good friends and colleagues. She protested my regular (but not excessive) meetings with friends and colleagues -- most of which she would have been welcome to attend. I at first thought that she was a little jealous of the time spent with them, or that we should be still in the "honeymoon" phase. I now think that she actually doesn't understand friendship, why I enjoy hanging out with my various friends, family and colleagues -- she doesn't feel the vibe. She might even be incapable of feeling it.

Like the "twin", I have never heard my wife show genuine regret or remorse for anything. The word "Sorry" is a get-out-of-jail-free card for her to show when she lands on the wrong square and wants to keep moving. And with men, I think she learned long ago that a little hot make-up sex goes a long way towards covering her misdeeds. It only worked with me about twice.

I asked her once if she had had any regrets about her upbringing, education or professional choices. Nope, everything was perfect, except for her family, of course, but her parents are defective so what could she do? She would do everything else the same way because it was perfect. I was incredulous at the time (most people wish they had continued to play the piano, not dropped out of school, had asked/or not asked Susie out to the prom, had started a business, had paid more attention to their parents or grandparents, or gone to law school, etc).

So I think that Stumble is onto something about my wife's perfect little world not living up to its billing -- and that causing great anxiety. So my wife creates a proxy for perfection in any way she can, by rearranging the mirrors in her life to give maximum glare at all times. Except that it's just reflected light, not the real stuff.


----------



## cb45

andrew:

i just got a worriesome thought. she doesnt sleep in yer home
anymore does she? i.e., she doesnt have access either right?

i think u said some time back she doesnt to both a) & b).

i get a creepy feeling bout yer "kiss of the spider woman" if u catch my drift. 

i for one couldnt sleep well with this "possessed" woman, even
in my separate rooms house.

i get pictures of Rebecca DeMornay (with her clothes on) from
Hand that Rocks the Cradle when u describe yer W
being sooooo cooool and icy like calm.

wheeeeeewwwwwww. think i'll take that hot choc now.

shalom...............


----------



## seeking sanity

Andrew, it's very possible you married a socio-path. Roughly 8% of the population is one. 

Profile of the Sociopath


----------



## Andrew2011

cb45 said:


> i just got a worriesome thought. she doesnt sleep in yer home
> anymore does she? i.e., she doesnt have access either right?
> ....
> i get pictures of Rebecca DeMornay (with her clothes on) from
> Hand that Rocks the Cradle when u describe yer W
> being sooooo cooool and icy like calm.


She doesn't sleep in my (old, east coast) home and has no access to it. She has possession of the new, west coast home for now.

cb45, you had the same chilling feeling vicariously as I did directly. I was going to write that her look/demeanor reminded me of something out of Glenn Close/_Fatal Attraction_ and Sharon Stone/_Basic Instinct._ But I didn't want to appear to be flippant or overly dramatic. But since you said it first, yes, there is definitely something to your apprehension.

Fortunately, I've never seen her do any physical violence to anyone or anything.


----------



## Andrew2011

seeking sanity said:


> Andrew, it's very possible you married a socio-path. Roughly 8% of the population is one.
> 
> Profile of the Sociopath


Oh no.

She scores a clear 11 out of the 15 listed characteristics of a sociopath:


Glibness and superficial charm
Manipulative and conning
Pathological lying
Lack of remorse, shame or guilt
Shallow emotions
Incapacity for love
Need for stimulation [she is extremely impatient and a kind of quiet thrill-seeker]
Callousness/Lack of empathy
Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Promiscuous sexual behavior/Infidelity

Most of these traits I have alluded to in previous posts on this thread.

While I knew she has some instability issues, I had no idea that these traits added up in this disturbing way.


----------



## AFEH

Andrew, some words of caution for you. You can get well and truly lost in trying to understanding the inner workings of another person. Plus it’s the beginnings of becoming a codependent if at any time you seek to change her in any way at all.

You are doing fabulously well just taking note of and accepting her external behaviour for what it is and seeking verification and validation when your gut tells you something is wrong. Plus you are a man who knows himself well and you have healthy personal boundaries. It’s those boundaries, behaviour that you will tolerate and what you wont tolerate from her that are key here. Those boundaries will hold you in good stead unless you let yourself compromise them.

Bob


----------



## MsLonely

I'm so sorry what you have been through and I trust you're a great husband and you've been doing your best to be one.

There's just a fact that I would like to reminder you to think about it.
When she was crazy in love with you and decided to marry you:

Do you think she was an actress? Do you think she intended to cheat your love and your money? Do you think she was able to fake that she's in love with you?

Let's put the money issue aside first because it's a home belongs to you & her. I don't want to calculate it's her money or your money or who should pay the most of money.

I believe relationship hitting a rock started the main problem, then all the rest and everything became a problem.

As for money & the house:

If she were still the same great, attractive, charming woman you fell in love with, if today, she were a great lovely wife, I believe you would have no problem even to buy the whole world for her.

It's very rocky in the first 2 years of marriage. There will be so many arguments and communication work to be done.

I believe she's same confused as you do. I believe she did fall in love with you. At the moment she married to you, she didn't plan to cheat on you. 

All the problem I guessed, came from her EX. He didn't stop pestering her and probably stalking her. When you and her face a communication breakdown, which created the fertile ground of the suspected affair- Are you sure they really had sex?
In addition:

Nagging, being negative, fault finding are the typical features of a wife, you will need to find a way to survive with such features.

99% of husbands have experienced what you're now facing, including my husband.

You're not alone: 99% of husband find their wives impossible to communicate and find their wives negative. But you know, it's marriage, it's normal for a couple to fight like cats & dogs, and it's life.

Please think about all the aspects carefully.

Is it simply you can't adapt yourself and get alone with your wife, (please understand it takes time for any husband to get along with a wife, trust me, no husband can survive with a wife without having communication problems.) or is it your wife so evil a cheater?

Please confront her about the credit card payments and make sure if she really had a physical affair with her EX or not, before you want jump into any decision and judgement.

I put my finger crossed and wished she didn't give a FK to her EX.

In this case, your marriage issue will be " how to communicatie with a negative wife," which is a lot easier.


----------



## stumblealong

Fatal Attraction/ Basic Instinct are good examples. Not the killing parts but just a basic sociopaths tendency. My childhood kinda reminds me of that movie 'The Good Son' I grew up with this family member of mine and she once threw my cat out of a upper story window, the cat got hurt. When I told my parents, they didn't believe me. That sweet little girl could not do something like that! This is why I never said anything about her behavior. I was a shy more reserved child, and she was the center of attention who was so sweet. Now that she has taken many members of the family for thousands of dollars among messing with peoples emotions, they now believe me about the cat.

Surprising when you finally see people true colors! All you can do is stay away and pick up the pieces.


----------



## Jellybeans

Andrew2011 said:


> I showed her the photos and told her I had copies of the emails and the hotel receipt -- briefly quoting dates and appropriate lines so she knew I had them.
> 
> Her reaction shocked me. She didn't do one of: 1) say, "ok, you've got me, let me explain why this happened"; 2) start to cry, hug me, or run away; or 3) say "you bloody bastard" (or similar). Rather, she stared cooly (not coldly) at me, and calmly explained that what I saw wasn't what I saw, and how I, poor guy, in my jealous mind could easily jump to erroneous conclusions. (In other words, as I explained earlier in the thread, it was like "No, that's not my hand in the cookie jar! That's not a hand! That's not a cookie!")
> 
> I told her that any one of her explanations stretched credulity, but on all three points, she was being just utterly ridiculous. (So love emails sent and dated in December to "Carlo" aren't love emails sent to "Carlo" in December? So date-stamped photos in January -- in proper order in her camera with other, more innocuous photos -- of shirtless "Carlo" on a bed aren't photos of "Carlo" on a bed? So a beach hotel charge on a weekend when I was away and she said she stayed at home is a fake charge? And there is a lot of stuff I saw but didn't copy that corroborates my conclusions.)
> 
> The ease with which she told incredulous lies (hardly skipping a beat, obviously not even reacting with a shred of empathy -- or fear -- at my obvious distraught demeanor) shocked me the most. This was the face of a person I no longer knew. Or maybe I don't exist at all.
> 
> There is something pathological at work here.
> 
> At least your husband was normal enough to read plainly the cards that you put squarely in front of him.


Oh wow. That is nuts! Yeah it's something wrong with her if she can't come out and admit it after being shown all the evidence. Crazy.


----------



## Andrew2011

AFEH said:


> Andrew, some words of caution for you. You can get well and truly lost in trying to understanding the inner workings of another person. Plus it’s the beginnings of becoming a codependent if at any time you seek to change her in any way at all.
> 
> You are doing fabulously well just taking note of and accepting her external behaviour for what it is and seeking verification and validation when your gut tells you something is wrong. Plus you are a man who knows himself well and you have healthy personal boundaries. It’s those boundaries, behaviour that you will tolerate and what you wont tolerate from her that are key here. Those boundaries will hold you in good stead unless you let yourself compromise them.


This is good advice; thank you. I really don't want to do a full mental scan, a psychoanalysis, of my wife -- I am not qualified, am too close to the situation, and I expect I would find it very painful.

But I am truly trying to understand more (alas, too late) of what I have dealing with and all too eagerly got myself into 2.5 years ago. Unfortunately, I seem to be dealing with a situation involving at least moderate mental/emotional instability. I'd like to understand more about that condition as it appears to afflict my wife (and by effect, me). This is to enable me to deal with separation and divorce better (defensively), and also hopefully to give me some answers as to the nagging "whys" of it all. (I know I will never get all the answers, but I need points of reference, points of interpretation, in order for me to be able to deal with this in my own psyche.) 

I am not trying to change her; from what I have seen, I don't think I even could. So there is no risk of co-dependency.

Whatever happens, the boundaries will be maintained. It was a mistake for me to temporarily relax them during our marriage.


----------



## Andrew2011

MsLonely said:


> There's just a fact that I would like to reminder you to think about it.
> When she was crazy in love with you and decided to marry you:
> 
> Do you think she was an actress? Do you think she intended to cheat your love and your money? Do you think she was able to fake that she's in love with you?
> ...
> 
> I believe relationship hitting a rock started the main problem, then all the rest and everything became a problem.
> 
> ...
> 
> I believe she's same confused as you do. I believe she did fall in love with you. At the moment she married to you, she didn't plan to cheat on you.
> 
> All the problem I guessed, came from her EX. He didn't stop pestering her and probably stalking her. When you and her face a communication breakdown, which created the fertile ground of the suspected affair- Are you sure they really had sex?
> ....
> 
> Please think about all the aspects carefully.
> 
> Is it simply you can't adapt yourself and get alone with your wife, (please understand it takes time for any husband to get along with a wife, trust me, no husband can survive with a wife without having communication problems.) or is it your wife so evil a cheater?
> 
> Please confront her about the credit card payments and make sure if she really had a physical affair with her EX or not, before you want jump into any decision and judgement.
> 
> ....
> In this case, your marriage issue will be " how to communicatie with a negative wife," which is a lot easier.


Ms L., I really wish my case were as simple as "wife and husband have fight(s), husband leaves town for a week, ex gets wife drunk and ex and wife have good 'ol times together, wife realizes she made a huge mistake, husband and wife resolve to love and communicate better". In that event, there is indeed something to talk about and try to reconcile (however challenging).

In my case, I am dealing with a person who has lied to her husband on a number of critical relationship issues, and cannot come clean when faced with proof of the truth. Who professes love (in writing) to her ex and not to her husband. Who treats husband in a very manipulative and cold manner, unless she wants something.

Fortunately, this is in no way about money, and never has been. (Among other things, she has a very well paying job and assets. She has never asked me for money, but, funny enough, doesn't often pull out the chequebook or credit card as fast as I do.) I never have felt she was after my money per se. What she wanted was a kind, pliable, almost stay-at-home hubby whom she could use to help enhance the quality of her surroundings, abuse in private and help make her look good in public. 

I am embarrassed to say that, looking back, I think I was very much like the classic case of a moderately abused wife: kept controlled and isolated, on edge, walking on eggshells, being blamed for the abusers own mood-swings, disrespected for their own legitimate wants and needs (apart from trivialities and baubles to enhance appearance), not recognized for their own contributions, and being betrayed at the first opportunity.

In this sense, it doesn't matter whether she and "Carlo" actually f**ked, engaged in non-sex sex in the Clinton manner, or just hugged each other to sleep with "Carlo's" shirt off. Although the evidence points very strongly in the coital direction, the point is that my wife has compromised the marriage in some physical manner, to add to an incontrovertible negation in an emotional manner. The latter, along with the pattern of -- yes -- spousal abuse, is more than sufficient for me to decide to pull the plug.

I don't think I married an actress, I think I married a mirage.


----------



## Andrew2011

Jellybeans said:


> Oh wow. That is nuts! Yeah it's something wrong with her if she can't come out and admit it after being shown all the evidence. Crazy.


Yes, Jellybeans. As you can see from my thread, that is the moment when the penny finally dropped with me. Looking at her when she delivered such cool but ridiculous denials, and even changed implausible cover stories/lies without missing a beat, I knew that I had a much bigger problem than the usual unhappy wayward spouse who is looking for attention.

There is no guilt here. There is no empathy. There is no common reality. There is no "us".


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Ya' know, she reminds me a woman I knew once, me and everyone I know avoids that ***** like the plague.


----------



## Andrew2011

Update one week later ...

As I had planned, I went back to her (formerly our) city for a visit of a week to wind things down.

The weirdness continues.

For the first few days, she continued to email, text and call me regularly. Same strange mixed messages of affection, aggressive questioning, and criticism. I didn't respond to all but two, and then only in a businesslike way.

She also sent an email to my parents just to say hi, that she hoped to see them for Christmas, and who knows, we might have some news about pregnancy. (This is obviously pandering to my parents, who would love to have a grandchild from me.)

Two days ago, after being in her city for four days without contacting her, she deleted me as a contact in her Skype and messenger services. This was probably done in a fit of pique to try to lash out at me or something. While I felt a certain painful "end of the era" twinge, it wasn't a surprise; that's what happens when you split up. I didn't respond.

Yesterday, she almost begged to see me before I left again. I did, for a cup of coffee. Her demeanor was very interesting -- for the first time, I saw some hint of humility and culpability that wasn't an act. I told her once again that her liaison with "Carlo" had caused us tremendous grief, and that I couldn't stand for it. I also objected to the way she treated me during much of our marriage. For the first time, she didn't argue with me that I was imagining things. She stopped short of apologizing, but her language obliquely conveyed regret. She wants me to come home.

This was a big breakthrough under the circumstances, but cannot erase the faithlessness and lies over the past month since D-day (let alone before). So I am continuing with the separation.

After our coffee, I pecked her on the cheek, left her standing there on the curb, as I got into the cab and sped off. It was like in a movie, except no soundtrack amid the pall of sadness. And yes, I did cry a little.

I do attribute part of her "coming to the table" to my program of terminating contact with her, repeating the basic facts of our situation, and expressing that this is grossly unfair to me and our marriage and that I cannot live with it. Had I continued to be "Mr Nice Guy", I think she would still be kicking my balls hourly. (THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR THIS ADVICE TO BE STRONG AND ACCEPT NO NONSENSE. IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, BOTH TO DEAL WITH THE SITUATION AND FOR MY OWN PSYCHE.)

A week ago, I let the cat out of the bag at my city (but not yet my family, that will be soon) that my marriage is hitting a dead end. Interestingly, news does travel fast. This morning I received an email from a woman in my city I have known for a while and always liked. She is divorced, 41, and works near me. She casually invited me out for lunch "next time I am back in town". This can't be a coincidence, and I must say did give my battered ego a bit of a boost. But I am going to defer the invitation for a bit -- I don't want to complicate my current imbroglio in any way.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Andrew2011 said:


> Update one week later ...
> 
> As I had planned, I went back to her (formerly our) city for a visit of a week to wind things down.
> 
> The weirdness continues.
> 
> For the first few days, she continued to email, text and call me regularly. Same strange mixed messages of affection, aggressive questioning, and criticism. I didn't respond to all but two, and then only in a businesslike way.
> 
> She also sent an email to my parents just to say hi, that she hoped to see them for Christmas, and who knows, we might have some news about pregnancy. (This is obviously pandering to my parents, who would love to have a grandchild from me.)
> 
> Two days ago, after being in her city for four days without contacting her, she deleted me as a contact in her Skype and messenger services. This was probably done in a fit of pique to try to lash out at me or something. While I felt a certain painful "end of the era" twinge, it wasn't a surprise; that's what happens when you split up. I didn't respond.
> 
> Yesterday, she almost begged to see me before I left again. I did, for a cup of coffee. Her demeanor was very interesting -- for the first time, I saw some hint of humility and culpability that wasn't an act. I told her once again that her liaison with "Carlo" had caused us tremendous grief, and that I couldn't stand for it. I also objected to the way she treated me during much of our marriage. For the first time, she didn't argue with me that I was imagining things. She stopped short of apologizing, but her language obliquely conveyed regret. She wants me to come home.
> 
> This was a big breakthrough under the circumstances, but cannot erase the faithlessness and lies over the past month since D-day (let alone before). So I am continuing with the separation.
> 
> After our coffee, I pecked her on the cheek, left her standing there on the curb, as I got into the cab and sped off. It was like in a movie, except no soundtrack amid the pall of sadness. And yes, I did cry a little.
> 
> I do attribute part of her "coming to the table" to my program of terminating contact with her, repeating the basic facts of our situation, and expressing that this is grossly unfair to me and our marriage and that I cannot live with it. Had I continued to be "Mr Nice Guy", I think she would still be kicking my balls hourly.
> 
> A week ago, I let the cat out of the bag at my city (but not yet my family, that will be soon) that my marriage is hitting a dead end. Interestingly, news does travel fast. This morning I received an email from a woman in my city I have known for a while and always liked. She is divorced, 41, and works near me. She casually invited me out for lunch "next time I am back in town". This can't be a coincidence, and I must say did give my battered ego a bit of a boost. But I am going to defer the invitation for a bit -- I don't want to complicate my current imbroglio in any way.


Could it be possible that this is the first time that anyone's stood up to her the way you have? You didn't yell at her or anything, you fought fire with water. Maybe your cool response to her heat made her stop and think about what's brought her to this point instead of her response or next move. Contacting your parents about X-mas and a baby right now is textbook "crazy *****." No offense.

Also, another lady ten years younger than you? "Mama, there goes that man"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Andrew2011

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Could it be possible that this is the first time that anyone's stood up to her the way you have? ....
> 
> Contacting your parents about X-mas and a baby right now is textbook "crazy *****." No offense.
> 
> Also, another lady ten years younger than you? "Mama, there goes that man"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It could indeed be the first time that a boyfriend/husband has stood up to her in a sustained, principled way. Certainly "Carlo" and "George", for all of their drama (and apparent animated arguing), always seem to pander to her in the end. There is no question that my reactions have been baffling to her, a kind of script she isn't familiar with. (Which is really weird in and of itself.)

No offense taken on the allegation of craziness. I used stronger words, myself!

Well, this new woman date is 8 years younger, not 10.  

Apart from clarity and decompression, a good by-product of this awful episode is that I have lost about 7 pounds already, heading I am sure to 10 or 15. (Twotime, you're right!) I'll be almost at my "normal" weight soon, and sporting the new wardrobe I am getting. I always thought "shopping therapy" was a girl thing, but it actually has been helpful to me too for some reason. I wore a nice new suit, crisp shirt and tie to a business meeting last week and felt very good for a change!


----------



## Mrs Chai

Any updates Andrew? Haven't heard from you in a while and been wondering how things have been going.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Mrs Chai said:


> Any updates Andrew? Haven't heard from you in a while and been wondering how things have been going.


She probably has him trapped in a hole making him put lotion on so she can wear his skin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

lol


----------



## Darth Vader

Andrew2011 said:


> Update one week later ...
> 
> As I had planned, I went back to her (formerly our) city for a visit of a week to wind things down.
> 
> The weirdness continues.
> 
> For the first few days, she continued to email, text and call me regularly. Same strange mixed messages of affection, aggressive questioning, and criticism. I didn't respond to all but two, and then only in a businesslike way.
> 
> She also sent an email to my parents just to say hi, that she hoped to see them for Christmas, and who knows, we might have some news about pregnancy. (This is obviously pandering to my parents, who would love to have a grandchild from me.)
> 
> Two days ago, after being in her city for four days without contacting her, she deleted me as a contact in her Skype and messenger services. This was probably done in a fit of pique to try to lash out at me or something. While I felt a certain painful "end of the era" twinge, it wasn't a surprise; that's what happens when you split up. I didn't respond.
> 
> Yesterday, she almost begged to see me before I left again. I did, for a cup of coffee. Her demeanor was very interesting -- for the first time, I saw some hint of humility and culpability that wasn't an act. I told her once again that her liaison with "Carlo" had caused us tremendous grief, and that I couldn't stand for it. I also objected to the way she treated me during much of our marriage. For the first time, she didn't argue with me that I was imagining things. She stopped short of apologizing, but her language obliquely conveyed regret. She wants me to come home.
> 
> This was a big breakthrough under the circumstances, but cannot erase the faithlessness and lies over the past month since D-day (let alone before). So I am continuing with the separation.
> 
> After our coffee, I pecked her on the cheek, left her standing there on the curb, as I got into the cab and sped off. It was like in a movie, except no soundtrack amid the pall of sadness. And yes, I did cry a little.
> 
> I do attribute part of her "coming to the table" to my program of terminating contact with her, repeating the basic facts of our situation, and expressing that this is grossly unfair to me and our marriage and that I cannot live with it. Had I continued to be "Mr Nice Guy", I think she would still be kicking my balls hourly. (THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR THIS ADVICE TO BE STRONG AND ACCEPT NO NONSENSE. IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, BOTH TO DEAL WITH THE SITUATION AND FOR MY OWN PSYCHE.)
> 
> A week ago, I let the cat out of the bag at my city (but not yet my family, that will be soon) that my marriage is hitting a dead end. Interestingly, news does travel fast. This morning I received an email from a woman in my city I have known for a while and always liked. She is divorced, 41, and works near me. She casually invited me out for lunch "next time I am back in town". This can't be a coincidence, and I must say did give my battered ego a bit of a boost. But I am going to defer the invitation for a bit -- I don't want to complicate my current imbroglio in any way.


It's all an act by your STBX, don't buy into it!

Why haven't you told your family about what your STBX is doing/done to you, do you realize the longer you wait to tell your parents what's been going on, the more your STBX will be able to twist your parents against you? I've heard of it happening, Tell your parents NOW! Before your STBX fabricates some lame story against you!


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

turnera said:


> lol


You're laughing but he's probably getting the hose again as we speak...uh, post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KathyGriffinFan

Andrew, how long has it been since y'all have been separated?


----------

