# Blaming the OP...how does this help?



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Before we start, I would like to say that when I found out about my ex wife's affair, at first I was angry at the OP, and wanted to do him harm. I soon realized that he was just the vehicle my wife used to cheat. Since then , I have paid him no mind. 
I would like to know why so many BS's blame the OP more than they blame the actual cheater (their spouse) , and how this can possibly help the BS . Isn't it just another form of rug sweeping and minimizing?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I think it is a way of coping with what happened.

However, if someone is in a vulnerable situation -let's say a parent- has died, they lost a child or something of equal magnitude, or their spouse had cheated on them, the person who honed in on them and manipulated them into an affair would have to be a real POS.

Especially if that person was a trusted person like a Pastor, a Doctor, a marriage guidance counsellor or whathaveyou. 

So under those circumstances the POS OP would in my opinion be equally to blame or even more to blame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

The OP has 50% of the responsibility. My ex WS was vulnerable - we were in a bad place and she was easy pickings. The POS put out the signals (webb) and lured her in. However only those who want to get lured in allow it to happen.

Trouble is you never have the full story - I have only guessed at what the signals were that may have passed prior to the affair. The odd comment hear and there, body language etc. Who was luring who? All my initial thoughts pointed to him but she was equally complicit - they both rolled out the welcome mat.

The like minded meet and it happens (sometimes very quickly). Us betrayed spend years pondering the bits and pieces, trying to put the jigsaw together. The best idea I had as to how it unfolded was how quickly we started up 16 years before. My ex wasn't backward in coming forward. Attraction equals action. 

I wanted to hurt both of them for what their behavior said about me.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

You may be angry at the OP and/or may threaten to beat them down. Then what? Your WS still has the "demon" inside. 
Additionally, I don't see the OP being 50% responsible. Rather they are a 50% participate. Your spouse is 100% responsible for choosing to go down that road.


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

Blaming the OM or OW is just a coping mechanism caused by the shock and it stays until the "denial" stage passes. You do not want to believe that your spouse could do this, so of course they had to be either coerced mentally into it by some "super predator" or "****".

It is totally wasted energy . The OM/OW made no vows to you. Probably less than 10% of men on earth are going to turn down a piece of ass if it is offered up to them.

This blaming the affair partner can also result in serious legal and or physical damage if the BS confronts the OP

The person you married is the problem, and you need to concentrate all your energy on dealing with them. Hard to accept but just look at all the ranting about OP on here and what does it get you.

Blaming OP is DIFFERENT than exposing them to their spouse. That needs to be done


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Worse yet. The OP/AP doesn't leave and runs off with the WS.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

When I found out about and who the primary OM was for my XWW, I can't say that I placed blame on him. I did want him to be held accountable, but his wife really didn't want to hear it.


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## rzmpf (Mar 11, 2016)

I think it depends on the relationship between the BS and the OM/OW. If the affairpartner is a stranger the WS met somewhere (bar, gym, ..) or is a co-worker that the BS does not really know it's a lot different than if he/she has a relationship with the BS (friends, best friends, relatives etc.) In the latter case the AP betrayed the BS just as the WS did (and is equally to blame), a stranger does not owe the BS anything. The responsibility of the WS is the same in both cases.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

TaDor said:


> Worse yet. The OP/AP doesn't leave and runs off with the WS.


That is a positive IMO.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I blame my husbands ex gf for a lot. That's not to say I don't blame my husband too. But my anger is more directed at her, my hurt is directed more at him.

She knew he was in a relationship and then married

She knew that her own husband didn't want her talking to my husband

She cheated on my husband and was given the ultimatum of choosing my husband or her husband. She chose her husband. SHE made the choice so she needed to leave my husband alone

I had reached out to her years ago and told her I knew who she was, didn't want any animosity, just respect and that I didn't care about their friendship so long as no lines were crossed

I sent her messages congratulating her on both births of her children and her marriage, tried to be friendly

When we were separated and my husband was vulnerable and confused, she dove right in, knowing his head was messed up. She didn't care about HIM only her personal agenda of "finally getting him back"

I consider her a predator.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Oh, they get some of the blame for sure, maybe not the lasting blame but, if they knew the person was married, had kids, and still pursued - I mean, what kind of human being are they? We need to protect each other while we're here. Not exploit each other for our own benefit. If every person did this there would BE no affairs. 
When I had my affair not only did I hurt my husband and myself, I also broke the girl code, the mom code and the human being code by choosing to engage with a married man. Seriously, we need to have each other's backs and hold each other accountable for causing others pain. 
When I talked to OW2 she said she thought we were "on the outs." so what, we were still married. And then I called her husband and he said that was her third affair. She was confused on how marriage works. poor muffin.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

workindad said:


> When I found out about and who the primary OM was for my XWW, I can't say that I placed blame on him. I did want him to be held accountable, but his wife really didn't want to hear it.


She probably had too much to lose.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> Before we start, I would like to say that when I found out about my ex wife's affair, at first I was angry at the OP, and wanted to do him harm. I soon realized that he was just the vehicle my wife used to cheat. Since then , I have paid him no mind.
> I would like to know why so many BS's blame the OP more than they blame the actual cheater (their spouse) , and how this can possibly help the BS . Isn't it just another form of rug sweeping and minimizing?


Nobody wants to admit they are the real problem. Blaming the OP or even the cheating spouse shifts responsibility away from the person who could and should take action and puts it on the shoulders of people who probably don't even care. 

The OP owes you nothing and they were only accepting what your spouse was handing out. If it wasn't them, it would be some other person. Who is to blame for a cheating spouse? Well, who selected them from all other potential mates on earth and thought they'd be great husband or wife material? An apple tree produces apples. When it does, the tree doesn't have a problem. Should it apologize for being an apple tree? Now, if you picked an apple tree but expected oranges, you have a problem. If you picked a tree and assumed it was an orange tree without conducting sufficient research, the problem is still your's. That's handy, because you're the only person you can change.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I blame my husbands ex gf for a lot. That's not to say I don't blame my husband too. But my anger is more directed at her, my hurt is directed more at him.
> 
> She knew he was in a relationship and then married
> 
> ...


Your husband is a predator to the other BS.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

LosingHim said:


> I blame my husbands ex gf for a lot. That's not to say I don't blame my husband too. But my anger is more directed at her, my hurt is directed more at him.
> 
> She knew he was in a relationship and then married
> 
> ...


There is no point in trying to be the bigger person. All they do is $hit on your efforts and laugh about you to their friends.

If you crack, after all your well-meaning efforts, well, then it was your own damn>d fault,* in THEIR opinion.
*
Yes, I blame the other person. Even in inappropriate friendships. Women who tell me that their friendship with my husband has nothing to do with me know exactly what they are doing.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

My ex cheated on me and it was my fault. I knew her reputation before I even asked her out. I nailed her on our first date. There was absolutely nothing in her character that should have made me expect sexual faithfulness. She never had shown deep loyalty in any previous relationship, including with her own kids. One doesn't go to the dump to find a priceless work of art. Wishing for her to fit in the role I had imagined for a wife didn't change who or what she was. Her own parents ditched her and her siblings when she was quite young and they were raised in foster care. She had no idea what a loyal, stable family even looked like. During my mate selection process, I wasn't behaving as someone who appreciated or valued sexual faithfulness. While single, I was nailing any woman who happened along. When I was single, if some attractive married woman came onto me I wouldn't have turned her down, so I'm supposed to be pissed at the OM when I'm no better? I got exactly what I deserved.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Not trying to jack the thread or take it another direction, but from what I've seen BSs tend to blame themselves and the AP more than the WS. I honestly think a lot of WSs get off pretty easy in the real world because of this.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

when a male trespasses on another males territory he knows the risk he is taking.

Tamat


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Maxo said:


> Your husband is a predator to the other BS.


You are correct. They both preyed on each other. 

I had extensive conversations with her (now ex) husband. He solely blamed her, I blame them both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I mostly blame my ex, and intellectually understand that the OW made no vows to me - she in fact doesn't even know me, and has never even seen, met, or spoken to me.

Intellectually, I know that. But my heart and gut hate her. Even though I don't even know her. This is a woman who knowingly pursued a married man with a school age child. When he started to cool things off between them before I found out about her because he was feeling guilty and considering staying in the marriage, she pursued him even more aggressively to the point that she made sure I found out about her, and then she made him an ultimatum that he either move out and divorce me, and as quickly as possible, or they were "done."

(And the idiot chose her. She must be a freak in bed.)

Once the divorce was final and he wasn't hurrying up quickly enough to move her in with him (and this he was doing to try to give our son time to absorb the whole thing, which he'd only found out about 3 months before), she made him that ultimatum again. And, idiot that he is, he did what she wanted again, at the cost of his relationship with his son that he's continuing to work very hard to repair.

This is what he tells me about her without my asking (I've asked him, actually, to stop telling me these things - I don't need to know). I shudder to think of what he doesn't tell me.

I'd like someone to please explain to me why I'm wrong to hate this woman, knowing what I know about her, and how it is that you, after walking a mile in my shoes, wouldn't feel the same way. I don't mean that as a challenge - I'd really like to stop hating her. The hatred I feel for her eats me up inside.

By the way, I hate my ex more. I can't even look at him. Unfortunately, I have to see him often because he comes over to take our son to the gym or elsewhere, and I don't relegate him to the driveway - I was a child of divorce whose parents hated each other, and while they at least never bad-mouthed each other to me, they also barely spoke, and my Dad wasn't allowed to step foot in our house. I can't do that to my son. So, he comes in, and I have to be pleasant and cordial for my son's sake. I hate him for what he's done and continues to do by living with a fvck buddy 10 minutes away in a house we lived in together for 12 years and brought our infant son home to - a house where we had our happiest memories - because he's too cheap and lazy to have the decency to sell it and start over fresh in a different one. I hate him with the fire of a thousand suns. I'd like to stop doing that, too. But wanting to change the way you feel and changing it are two very different things.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Before we start, I would like to say that when I found out about my ex wife's affair, at first I was angry at the OP, and wanted to do him harm. I soon realized that he was just the vehicle my wife used to cheat. Since then , I have paid him no mind.
> I would like to know why so many BS's blame the OP more than they blame the actual cheater (their spouse) , and how this can possibly help the BS . Isn't it just another form of rug sweeping and minimizing?


Great post @Rookie4 - perhaps for those choosing R it is a way to mentally deal with their spouses betrayal by putting as much or more blame on the OP and not their spouse - thinking "my spouse didn't do this the OP seduced them" or whatever they might think.

Bottom line is this OP or no OP if your spouse didnt break their vows and CHOOSE to cheat then you wouldn't be in the situation you are in...I've seen this discussed before someone said well a spouse could be submissive or not able ot say no - that is just the BS making excuses for the WS IMO


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Sometimes it's easy to hate them because you think "if they didn't exist, if they weren't 'better' than me, if my spouse had never met them, if....if....if...." Then this would've never happened.

It's delusional thinking, but it's real thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Great post @Rookie4 - perhaps for those choosing R it is a way to mentally deal with their spouses betrayal by putting as much or more blame on the OP and not their spouse - thinking "my spouse didn't do this the OP seduced them" or whatever they might think.
> 
> Bottom line is this OP or no OP if your spouse didnt break their vows and CHOOSE to cheat then you wouldn't be in the situation you are in...I've seen this discussed before someone said well a spouse could be submissive or not able ot say no - that is just the BS making excuses for the WS IMO


I agree with this, too. I make no excuses for my ex. It was his choice to cheat, regardless of whether she pursued him aggressively from the beginning or not. I've never asked about this and he's never told me. I actually give her the benefit of the doubt on this point. I suspect it was he who made it clear to her that for him, the marriage was "already over" - I think he invited her in, so to speak.

I blame him 100% for making that choice. She just happened to be the first contestant available when he decided that was what he was going to do. I don't buy the crap line he fed me back when I first found out that "it just happened." She didn't trip and fall on his d***. He made what happened happen.

That said, I hate her because I think she's an awful person, and I hate that my son has to regularly be exposed to two people so lacking of character.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

A cheating spouse knowingly broke wedding vows and all expected bounds of society. It's one of the worst kinds of betrayals.

The cheating spouse's affair partner may not have broken vows, but unless the cheater completely lied to them about being married, the affair partner certainly helped them with the betrayal. While the affair partner's assistance may not have been breaking a wedding vow of their own, they were certainly breaking the expected bounds of society.

Murder is a horrible crime. But we don't only convict the murderer who actually did the deed, we also convict those who helped them plan it and/or clean up afterwards.

If cheating was a crime, affair partners would be guilty of Conspiracy to Commit Cheating and Accessory to Cheating, etc.

I certainly believe it helps a betrayed spouse to understand where blame lies. I understand that it's easier, during reconciliation, to place more blame on an affair partner than on a cheating spouse. And sometimes it's appropriate to place more blame on a cheater than on an affair partner who was lied to.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Nomorebeans said:


> That said, I hate her because I think she's an awful person, and I hate that my son has to regularly be exposed to two people so lacking of character.


Agree 100% to actively seduce someones spouse makes you a POS - no doubt...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Before we start, I would like to say that when I found out about my ex wife's affair, at first I was angry at the OP, and wanted to do him harm. I soon realized that he was just the vehicle my wife used to cheat. Since then , I have paid him no mind.
> I would like to know why so many BS's blame the OP more than they blame the actual cheater (their spouse) , and how this can possibly help the BS . Isn't it just another form of rug sweeping and minimizing?


My take:

If it is a total stranger, yes, maybe not as much. If it is a friend of the family [even casual], Oh Yeah, "Hell Yes", he gets the riot act.

Especially if, and prior to EA/PA, the guy's face and torso was floating around in my visual field and we locked eyes during those instances. 

He will be a target of my wrath. 

The POSOM entered my space, sized me up and then f***ed my wife behind my back ??. 

Actually, he would be f***ing ME when I was not looking. He would be using a virtual ***k. It would not hurt me below the neck. It would tear into my psyche and I would bleed virtual red blood. As proof, you would need to look at my bloodshot eyes.

So, it depends. Actions have consequences. Set free no felon of the flesh. Your flesh and your wife's flesh.

If I were positive that POSOM did not know she was married, he gets the pass. I cannot think of any other reason than that for a pass.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

TAMAT said:


> when a male trespasses on another males territory he knows the risk he is taking.
> 
> Tamat


Women aren't property and if she's having an affair, nobody's trespassing. They were invited, encouraged, maybe even pursued. Your partner will decide what's your "territory" and how long it remains so.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

I think this topic will go on until the end of time >>>>
WHO IS TO BLAME ??

We've all heard the expression, "It takes two to tango," and I believe that goes to affair partners as well.

The POSOW knew my STBX aka IB was married with a family. 
She was also married with a family but was not getting along with her husband and wanted out.

The OW worked for IB. She asked for her desk to be moved "away from the air conditioning vent" and had it place across from IB's office where he could see her all day long and visa versa.

And then, gee out of nowhere, she starts to wear revealing clothes: Low cut blouses and oops, sometimes she forgot to put her bra on!

(Oh my, I guess being by that air-conditioner vent WASN'T that bad after all, huh?) 

Then she started to wear white tight jeans and oops again, where were those panties that many of us put on in the morning?

Oh, leopard stiletto heels is a MUST for every secretary in the work environment.

So, without reservations, I think the POSOW was an ACTIVE participant in my marital TROUBLES and she knowingly and willingly she was making those trouble harder to resolve.

My therapist and psychiatrist referred to her as a "CATALYST."


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Women aren't property and if she's having an affair, nobody's trespassing. They were invited, encouraged, maybe even pursued. Your partner will decide what's your "territory" and how long it remains so.


I don't think that's what he was referring to. I read posts about the actions of some OMs and I am floored at some of the things they do. Screwing around with another man's wife and family is a good way to end up dead or maimed. While its true I was raised to think adultery was ok within certain boundaries, I was warned to stay away from married women, because it is a good way to wind up dead.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> when a male trespasses on another males territory he knows the risk he is taking.
> 
> Tamat


If another males territory would put up barriers or at lease a no trespass sign rather than putting down a welcome mat, it wouldn't be a problem.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think that psychologically the BS feels like the OM/OW is an interloper in an intimate partnership and wants to believe that that partnership is special and still existent.

So many BS's are relieved when NC is first established, mistakenly believing that the threat is over and now it's the aftermath that must be dealt with. What they don't truly understand in their hearts is that the WS has detached and that intimate partnership isn't a bulwark against an interloper. So, initially, they put the onus on the one who is 'coming between' the couple, not the WS, who so much of the time is either a pursuer of the OM/OW or a very willing partner.

Once more of the truth comes out, the BS begins to understand just how deep the betrayal is. The BS is lied to, gaslighted; NC is broken; the A is taken underground. After a while, the BS starts to understand that the WS isn't a partner anymore and is very much complicit in the A.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

As with everything else in life, we can't blame others for actions we willingly took, while knowing all the facts of the situation & the consequences. It's called being an adult. 

If someone nukes their partner, (which is what betrayal feels like as seen in the stories on here), the one they supposedly love, they're sure being let off lightly if ANY blame is put on AP with such things as 'the AP hotly pursued WS, didn't let up, made himself/herself irresistible to WS blah blah'. 

I understand BS doing it. I think it's a way of trying to lessen the gut-wrenching hurt of being betrayed by their life partner, the one person in the world they thought had their back. 

For me, blame is 100% on WS. No being let off the hook with AP being blamed for some/all of it. What the AP did is neither here nor there. 

WS was a 100% willing participant.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

********** said:


> .
> 
> *I understand BS doing it. I think it's a way of trying to lessen the gut-wrenching hurt of being betrayed by their life partner, the one person in the world they thought had their back. *
> 
> ...


That gets right to the heart of it..the BS blames the AP or even themselves to numb the pain of haing a disloyal POS as a spouse...I get it I really do but they need 2 x 4s when appropriate to show them that their disloyal spouse is just a run of the mill POS and not some special snowflake...


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## giddiot (Jun 28, 2015)

alte Dame said:


> I think that psychologically the BS feels like the OM/OW is an interloper in an intimate partnership and wants to believe that that partnership is special and still existent.
> 
> So many BS's are relieved when NC is first established, mistakenly believing that the threat is over and now it's the aftermath that must be dealt with. What they don't truly understand in their hearts is that the WS has detached and that intimate partnership isn't a bulwark against an interloper. So, initially, they put the onus on the one who is 'coming between' the couple, not the WS, who so much of the time is either a pursuer of the OM/OW or a very willing partner.
> 
> Once more of the truth comes out, the BS begins to understand just how deep the betrayal is. The BS is lied to, gaslighted; NC is broken; the A is taken underground. After a while, the BS starts to understand that the WS isn't a partner anymore and is very much complicit in the A.




QFT


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

jld said:


> She probably had too much to lose.


He has a good income, she has good lifestyle and there are kids involved.

Still, I don't understand the desire to remain ignorant.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

workindad said:


> He has a good income, she has good lifestyle and there are kids involved.
> 
> Still, I don't understand the desire to remain ignorant.


Then (she thinks) she does not have to deal with it.

Some people will lie to themselves/live in denial forever. It is less painful than facing reality.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

At first I thought you meant "blaming the original poster", which does happen here sometimes but then I realized what you really meant. >


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> I don't think that's what he was referring to. I read posts about the actions of some OMs and I am floored at some of the things they do. Screwing around with another man's wife and family is a good way to end up dead or maimed. While its true I was raised to think adultery was ok within certain boundaries, I was warned to stay away from married women, because it is a good way to wind up dead.


Quite a lot has to happen before an affair occurs. Someone has to pick a bad partner or they have to neglect or mistreat a decent one. The alleged victim spouse has to miss a whole bunch of clues before anyone's drawers hit the floor. If a wife or husband was being properly cared for why would they have any needs left to take elsewhere to be filled? 

So, you take a bullet or a butt whooping to be with a woman. If you die, your problems are over. If you heal, life goes on. The real lasting injury comes from neglecting one and having her leave your dumb a$$, taking your kids with her. If a woman isn't with a man who would take a bullet for her she's with the wrong guy.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I give my wife about all I have in me. If some man waltzes in and she invites him into her bed, he'd be doing me a huge favor if he accepted. He'd be saving me from wasting another minute of my life on a woman who wouldn't deserve it. If he wants to take a cheating, lying bat off my hands, he is welcome to do so. I will help load her crap up into his car and I will wave and smile as they drive off. The ultimate damage they'd do to each other would be more painful than me shooting or beating either of them.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

never blamed the OM. I put full responsibility on my STBXW. I think she used the EA to force me into accepting her as a WAW.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

unbelievable said:


> Women aren't property and if she's having an affair, nobody's trespassing. They were invited, encouraged, maybe even pursued. Your partner will decide what's your "territory" and how long it remains so.


Sorry @unbelievable but that is an unbelievable statement.

I am going to tear into this....notion.

Electrodes are attached....STAND CLEAR....

JOLT:

Yes, POSOM would get no where without her acquiescence and encouragement. She willing opened her legs to him.

If POSOM knew she was married and he still jumped her bones, he KNOWS how much trouble this will cause in her marriage. He KNOWS the husband will be hurt and angry.

But KNOWING this he did it anyway. He is culpable, an accessory to a crime of the heart, the crime of "Slap in the BS's Face" passion. 

For pu**y, he is willing to get his face smashed in. Any fool knows this. 

The fact that the wife did not care.... the fact that he ignored the danger and did not care about the wife's husband, does not absolve him from *consequences or guilt*. He own this, too.

Infidelity does not happen in a vacuum. It happens on this air-encircled Earth, in a car or in the woods or in a bed. All of these locations have surrounding air and gravity [of action]. After the deed, the air will turn noxious because WW and POSOM exhaled their hot-quilt-ridden breath.

POSOM is not an inanimate object. He is not a Dildo with two legs, two arms and a bastar*d head. He is responsible for his actions. He has a brain, he lives in a land that values fidelity and honesty and......listen up....contracts----> is this changing? You think so.

He caused the breakup of another man's contract. Libel action?

[/B]When you say a wife is not a man's property, she is not chattel, then YOU sound like a POSOM in the making.* 

* Of course a spouse is not another persons PROPERTY... not exactly.*


 But her image and her heart that he holds dear, is HIS property.
 

POSOM in the first-degree, willingly stole that. He used his wares, his body and his Slippery Elm Peterbuilt to accomplish this. Guilty, guilty, guilty.

YOU can justify his discretions rationally? Not blame the POSOM because the wife has free will no binding contract? 

Shame!

Well I cannot. 

Two people, two sentences of guilty, Your Honor.*


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Well, the last OW knew my H was married and that his W (me) was pregnant. 

Yeah, I blamed her as much as I blamed him. People who knowingly mess around with married folk, go to the same hell as the spouse that did the cheating.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

The fact that an OM would have sex with my kids Mother is even more of a reason to blame the OM than that he had sex with my Wife. It is a form of child abuse. This is a direct assault on children. I took vows to protect and honor my W no such promises were given to the OM.

Tamat


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Sorry @unbelievable but that is an unbelievable statement.
> 
> I am going to tear into this....notion.
> 
> ...


*So, he chooses to treat his wife like an adult and his thinking means he is going to become a POSOM? Hunh? I don't know what you thought you were tearing into, but it didn't come out how it sounded in your head.*


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

jld said:


> She probably had too much to lose.


It's true - in my case even though I fully exposed the POS AP coward to his wife she pulled down the shutters. She has a good job and they have a nice home; and they have 2 teenagers - big circle of friends. It was clear to me that she was well aware but chose to turn a blind eye to his behavior - after all he's bringing in senior management $. 

No wonder he was quick to fire off the AVO - can't have the barbarians storming the castle and the inhabitants start to wonder what's up.

Carry on as though all is OK ie: play "happy families".


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> People who knowingly mess around with married folk, go to the same hell as the spouse that did the cheating.


No way, then they'd be together forever! Separate hells please.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Horizon said:


> It's true - in my case even though I fully exposed the POS AP coward to his wife she pulled down the shutters. She has a good job and they have a nice home; and they have 2 teenagers - big circle of friends. It was clear to me that she was well aware but chose to turn a blind eye to his behavior - after all he's bringing in senior management $.
> 
> No wonder he was quick to fire off the AVO - can't have the barbarians storming the castle and the inhabitants start to wonder what's up.
> 
> Carry on as though all is OK ie: play "happy families".


Depressing, isn't it?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I think it is a way of coping with what happened.
> 
> However, if someone is in a vulnerable situation -let's say a parent- has died, they lost a child or something of equal magnitude, or their spouse had cheated on them, the person who honed in on them and manipulated them into an affair would have to be a real POS.
> 
> ...


Every situation is different.

And by the way, to me OP means "original poster", but it could just as easily mean "other person" in an affair.

I figured it out. My senility isn't yet total.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Unless OM/OW were lied to and did not know WS was married.....what ever happens to them they had it coming.

My sister had a 18 mo. affair and if the POSOM had a wife...I would have said with what ever happened to my sister....well thats what she gets, she should not have been cheating. I would have been saddened if she had of died when she OD'd because due to her living in adultry I knew she would have gone to hell.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

@unbelievable quote:

Quite a lot has to happen before an affair occurs......to neglect or mistreat a decent one [wife, my edit]..
The real lasting injury comes from neglecting one and having her leave your dumb a$$, taking your kids with her. If a woman isn't with a man who would take a bullet for her she's with the wrong guy. 
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
@unbelievable, you have been on TAM since 2010. How many really, really, really, really nice guys who did everything right for their wife and STILL got cheated on? Quite a few. It sounds like you feel that you somehow neglected your wife and that justified her cheating behavior? OK. Read my first sentence. Some spouses leave a perfectly good husband or wife for really unsound reasons. Emotional static causes them to tune you out and tune in on some perceived "better" channel. In their FOG, they think they sync better with the AP. 

Side note: @Maxo and others, [myself] hate the term FOG. These are adults and they clearly go wayward sans 100% saturated air and +/- 4 deg. F wayward of Dew Point. Their "Dew-it" Points them at the nearest POSOM and they nose-dive into the Manscape. They know what they are doing and do not care [enough] to stop their urges and infidelity. They simply have poor boundaries.

I understand the part about YOU being happy that some other clod gets your wad-receiver of a wife. She is out of your life. Good riddance. That is you. Don't generalize for the rest of the BS's.

Taking a bullet for a loyal wife, a caring wife and mother...you betcha....gun me down.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
@phillybeffandswiss quote:

So, he chooses to treat his wife like an adult and his thinking means he is going to become a POSOM?
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Remember the title of the thread. Blaming the OP...how does this help? 

He blessed his wife's POSOM. He thanks the guy for taking his bat-crazy wife. Using this as blanket statement for every BS is wrong. Cheating is wrong. Stealing another's spouse is wrong.....IN EVERY INSTANCE.

Get a divorce...then do the bed-a-hoppin. IMO. That is how it should be viewed. I am not against divorce and starting over. I am for treating one's spouse properly, and working through problems in the marriage.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________












|


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

unbelievable said:


> Nobody wants to admit they are the real problem. Blaming the OP or even the cheating spouse shifts responsibility away from the person who could and should take action and puts it on the shoulders of people who probably don't even care.
> 
> The OP owes you nothing and they were only accepting what your spouse was handing out. If it wasn't them, it would be some other person. Who is to blame for a cheating spouse? Well, who selected them from all other potential mates on earth and thought they'd be great husband or wife material? An apple tree produces apples. When it does, the tree doesn't have a problem. Should it apologize for being an apple tree? Now, if you picked an apple tree but expected oranges, you have a problem. If you picked a tree and assumed it was an orange tree without conducting sufficient research, the problem is still your's. That's handy, because you're the only person you can change.


This putrid line of thought reminds me of my insane ex mother in law who tried to make the case that Nicole Brown Simpson deserved to die because she selected OJ.
Don't you know anything about Cluster B personalities,which are rampant among cheaters? These folks are experts at masking and mirroring.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

********** said:


> As with everything else in life, we can't blame others for actions we willingly took, while knowing all the facts of the situation & the consequences. It's called being an adult.
> 
> If someone nukes their partner, (which is what betrayal feels like as seen in the stories on here), the one they supposedly love, they're sure being let off lightly if ANY blame is put on AP with such things as 'the AP hotly pursued WS, didn't let up, made himself/herself irresistible to WS blah blah'.
> 
> ...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> @unbelievable quote:
> 
> Quite a lot has to happen before an affair occurs......to neglect or mistreat a decent one [wife, my edit]..
> The real lasting injury comes from neglecting one and having her leave your dumb a$$, taking your kids with her. If a woman isn't with a man who would take a bullet for her she's with the wrong guy.
> ...


I read what he wrote and the title. It doesn't mean anything concerning my statement or your comparison of POSOM and unbelievable . You ignored what I stated with some loud red herrings so, I'll end the derail myself.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

No bullet taking for me. I am done with the white knight,chivalry,male disposability mangina stuff.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> Every situation is different.
> 
> And by the way, to me OP means "original poster", but it could just as easily mean "other person" in an affair.
> 
> I figured it out. My senility isn't yet total.


Well,it is getting there.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SunCMars said:


> @unbelievable quote:
> 
> Quite a lot has to happen before an affair occurs......to neglect or mistreat a decent one [wife, my edit]..
> The real lasting injury comes from neglecting one and having her leave your dumb a$$, taking your kids with her. If a woman isn't with a man who would take a bullet for her she's with the wrong guy.
> ...




There are two sides to every story. Obviously, almost everyone here spins a story that shows themselves in a favorable light. You can get he same from inmates of any prison. A fool is wise in his own eyes. Even if we imagine that someone is a complete saint and their wife or husband cheats, who picked them as a mate? There are no good guys or bad guys in marriage. There are unions that work and those that don't.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

unbelievable said:


> My ex cheated on me and it was my fault. I knew her reputation before I even asked her out. I nailed her on our first date. There was absolutely nothing in her character that should have made me expect sexual faithfulness. She never had shown deep loyalty in any previous relationship, including with her own kids. One doesn't go to the dump to find a priceless work of art. Wishing for her to fit in the role I had imagined for a wife didn't change who or what she was. Her own parents ditched her and her siblings when she was quite young and they were raised in foster care. She had no idea what a loyal, stable family even looked like. During my mate selection process, I wasn't behaving as someone who appreciated or valued sexual faithfulness. While single, I was nailing any woman who happened along. When I was single, if some attractive married woman came onto me I wouldn't have turned her down, so I'm supposed to be
> This is true. You got what you deserved.
> BTW, what's up with nailing people? A nail is very thin. You need to try plowing people or hosing them,etc.


----------



## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> No way, then they'd be together forever! Separate hells please.


Ah! Good point. I didn't think that one through!


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> Sorry @unbelievable but that is an unbelievable statement.
> 
> I am going to tear into this....notion.
> 
> ...


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Maxo said:


> I would never diminish my XW's culpability.
> However,the OM is a miscreant,as well. He has a moral obligation to me not to harm me,just as we all do to one another.
> I do not think blaming my XW in the most intense way precludes me thinking the OM is a complete sociopath as well as her. Thes concepts are not mutually exclusive.


Absolutely, @Maxo, the OM/OW is no better. They're called a POS on TAM, with good reason. 
I guess I was trying to say that I'd hate to see some percentage of OM/W's blame, as a member of society transferred to WS's blame, as a member of a couple, to make WS's blame add up to 100% that is.
Probably semantics, hope I'm explaining my position.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

An affair takes two. As far ad the % ownership it's more with the spouse. But he or she didn't fvck themselves.

To each his/her own. I've seen some not even tell the OP's spouse. IMO that's chicken sh!t


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Marc878 said:


> An affair takes two. As far ad the % ownership it's more with the spouse. But he or she *didn't fvck themselves*.


Although I'm sure many BSs have wanted to tell them that they should. >


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> A cheating spouse knowingly broke wedding vows and all expected bounds of society. It's one of the worst kinds of betrayals.
> 
> The cheating spouse's affair partner may not have broken vows, but unless the cheater completely lied to them about being married, the affair partner certainly helped them with the betrayal. While the affair partner's assistance may not have been breaking a wedding vow of their own, they were certainly breaking the expected bounds of society.
> 
> ...


This is just another attempt to justify weakness and self delusion. Fantasy comparisons between cheating and serious crimes like murder, assault forcible rape, treason, etc, are not helpful. The only serve to inflate the already self righteousness of BS's and further demonize the OP's . Please stick to the point of the thread.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I think that psychologically the BS feels like the OM/OW is an interloper in an intimate partnership and wants to believe that that partnership is special and still existent.
> 
> So many BS's are relieved when NC is first established, mistakenly believing that the threat is over and now it's the aftermath that must be dealt with. What they don't truly understand in their hearts is that the WS has detached and that intimate partnership isn't a bulwark against an interloper. So, initially, they put the onus on the one who is 'coming between' the couple, not the WS, who so much of the time is either a pursuer of the OM/OW or a very willing partner.
> 
> Once more of the truth comes out, the BS begins to understand just how deep the betrayal is. The BS is lied to, gaslighted; NC is broken; the A is taken underground. After a while, the BS starts to understand that the WS isn't a partner anymore and is very much complicit in the A.


A great post, and very much to the point of the thread. thank you.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

VeryHurt said:


> I think this topic will go on until the end of time >>>>
> WHO IS TO BLAME ??
> 
> We've all heard the expression, "It takes two to tango," and I believe that goes to affair partners as well.
> ...


So you H was an innocent victim, seduced by the evil genius , the OW? My goodness, the poor man.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thanks to all who posted. 
I have tried to read all of them in my limited time. 
I would also like to amend my opening post. I believe that if the OP is a VERY close friend, or family member, then ...yes they do get some of the blame, but not for your spouse's decision to cheat but for their own betrayal of the BS. Which is a separate issue.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I would also like to say that the idea that a spouse is somehow the "property" of the BS is archaic, idiotic and sexist, and I have no sympathy for that line of thought. My wife was , at no time , my property, nor was she some mindless creature, who didn't have the wit to make her own decisions. This is the acme of self delusion. You can't have it both ways, folks. Either the WS is a brain-dead buffoon, or he/she is a willful adult who is well aware of her/his actions. Guess which one I'm betting on> LOL


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Marc878 said:


> An affair takes two. As far ad the % ownership it's more with the spouse. But he or she didn't fvck themselves.
> 
> To each his/her own. I've seen some not even tell the OP's spouse. IMO that's chicken sh!t


Wrong...it isn't about who f*cked who, it is about who f*cked their marriage. The OM/OW isn't a part of the marriage, unless the WS MAKES them a part of it. As far as the BS goes, the only person to blame for cheating on HIS or HER marriage, is the person who agreed to the wedding vows. The other person is immaterial.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> So you H was an innocent victim, seduced by the evil genius , the OW? My goodness, the poor man.


Sarcarsm noted but not necessary. 
Of course he was guilty, hence the divorce in progress.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Thanks to all who posted.
> I have tried to read all of them in my limited time.
> I would also like to amend my opening post. I believe that if the OP is a VERY close friend, or family member, then ...yes they do get some of the blame, but not for your spouse's decision to cheat but for their own betrayal of the BS. Which is a separate issue.


This lacks analysis,IMO. Obviously both the cheater and AP are doing something wrong,harming another.
It is not a terribly complex concept that blaming one does not exclude blaming the other,as well.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

VeryHurt said:


> Sarcarsm noted but not necessary.
> Of course he was guilty, hence the divorce in progress.



Seems the OP has difficulty with conceptualizing that more than one person can be held liable for wrongdoing. Hard to fathom not having the ability to grasp this simple concept.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> This is just another attempt to justify weakness and self delusion. Fantasy comparisons between cheating and serious crimes like murder, assault forcible rape, treason, etc, are not helpful. The only serve to inflate the already self righteousness of BS's and further demonize the OP's . Please stick to the point of the thread.


You miss the point. The analogy relates to co-conspiracy. The particular crime is irrelevant.


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

It's not very rational, but when I think of the longtime friend of his (who was one of the women my xH cheated with) I still feel a little angry. And yet I'm more or less indifferent to XH himself. I think it's the hypocrisy and how she loved to talk about her church and her time singing with the choir at her church. Eye roll. Yeah. She was really moral. 

Logically I may know that my XH chose to f$(@ her and that it was his selfish actions that effect my son, not hers. But it doesn't make me hate her any less. What you know logically often doesn't effect your feelings. But I try to remind myself that actually she did me a favor. If it hadn't been for her I might not have tracked what he did or all the women he cheated with. She showed me his true colors. I could have still been with an unfaithful, half-hearted lover instead of the sexy, amazing guy in my life now.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Wrong...it isn't about who f*cked who, it is about who f*cked their marriage. The OM/OW isn't a part of the marriage, unless the WS MAKES them a part of it. As far as the BS goes, the only person to blame for cheating on HIS or HER marriage, is the person who agreed to the wedding vows. The other person is immaterial.


OP, a bit of advice. This is a discussion board. There is no right or wrong per se. Just a group of people with different life experiences and opinions. That is the whole point of opening a thread like the one you started. If your intent was to get everyone to think like you, I guess I don't quite understand that. Its a great topic for discussion, but you can't expect everyone to view it from your vantage point.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I will suggest that an affair takes three. They rarely occur in otherwise healthy, strong, marriages. Who might the innocent party be? The one picked a dishonest or unfaithful person to marry? The one who was so preoccupied or unobservant that they didn't notice their spouse drifting away from them or drifting toward someone else? If the AP was a close friend of the alleged victim, the alleged victim gets double whammy because not only did they pick a cheater for a spouse but they also picked one to be close friends with.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Maxo said:


> SunCMars said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry @unbelievable but that is an unbelievable statement.
> ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> I will suggest that an affair takes three. They rarely occur in otherwise healthy, strong, marriages. Who might the innocent party be? The one picked a dishonest or unfaithful person to marry? The one who was so preoccupied or unobservant that they didn't notice their spouse drifting away from them or drifting toward someone else? If the AP was a close friend of the alleged victim, the alleged victim gets double whammy because not only did they pick a cheater for a spouse but they also picked one to be close friends with.


Unbe, what I understand from your posts is that you are encouraging a BS to take responsibility where they sincerely can. Is that correct?


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

unbelievable said:


> I will suggest that an affair takes three. They rarely occur in otherwise healthy, strong, marriages. Who might the innocent party be? The one picked a dishonest or unfaithful person to marry? The one who was so preoccupied or unobservant that they didn't notice their spouse drifting away from them or drifting toward someone else? If the AP was a close friend of the alleged victim, the alleged victim gets double whammy because not only did they pick a cheater for a spouse but they also picked one to be close friends with.


I would say the co-consirators take the entire blame. The BS need not be perfect to expect fidelity. A promise is a promise.
Fraud in the inducement is often the reason a BS winds up with a cheater. Happens all the time in a variety of transactions. Assuming the BShad access to a crystal ball when,typically dealing with an accomplished masker is misguided.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Did some man exchange vows with you? Did they promise you fidelity? Nope. The person who did was your spouse. If you have been betrayed it was they that did so.
> 
> Nothing about a human being (even her "image" ) is your property. Her heart is an organ that pumps blood. No man ever was awarded his wife's heart in a divorce. It's her's. You are free to imagine you are the King of England but that doesn't make you royalty and it doesn't confer any special rights. Your relationship to your wife is whatever she decides it is. She decides who has access to her body and whom she shares her affections and secrets with. If that person is you today, be appreciative. If that person is not you today, no other man or woman is to blame. She gave her heart to you at some point. What did you do with it? *If she had a man but still longed for a man, someone either can't be satisfied or someone else wasn't doing much of a job.*


Could it be both?


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> I will suggest that an affair takes three. They rarely occur in otherwise healthy, strong, marriages. Who might the innocent party be? The one picked a dishonest or unfaithful person to marry? The one who was so preoccupied or unobservant that they didn't notice their spouse drifting away from them or drifting toward someone else?


One of the things that I disagree with is the notion that affairs only happen in unhappy marriages. I can't speak from a female perspective, but I can tell you that most of the male waywards I know are happy with their home lives. They tend to rationalize having a woman on the side by telling themselves its just sex. Their spouses have no emotional tip offs because they don't have an emotional connection with the AP. 

I don't know, I feel like because most of the people on CWI have never cheated, they have more of an idealistic or noble point of view. Nothing wrong with that, but IMO the bar set here is much higher than society as a whole. Which is why many assume that people in good marriages don't cheat, and even blame themselves when their spouses cheat. The bottom line is in most cases there was nothing they could have done.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

unbelievable said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> > Did some man exchange vows with you? Did they promise you fidelity? Nope. The person who did was your spouse. If you have been betrayed it was they that did so.
> ...


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Maxo said:


> unbelievable said:
> 
> 
> > Betrayal is not applicable to most APs absent some fiduciary duty. Nevertheless theAP has participated in causing grave harm.
> ...


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Great post @Rookie4 - perhaps for those choosing R it is a way to mentally deal with their spouses betrayal by putting as much or more blame on the OP and not their spouse - thinking "my spouse didn't do this the OP seduced them" or whatever they might think.
> 
> Bottom line is this OP or no OP if your spouse didnt break their vows and CHOOSE to cheat then you wouldn't be in the situation you are in...I've seen this discussed before someone said well a spouse could be submissive or not able ot say no - that is just the BS making excuses for the WS IMO


You may be right that some people use this as an avoidance technique, but if so I think the reconciliation will falter down the track. 

Stating the obvious, it's quite hard after an affair to rebuild trust. One of the things I found to be a prerequisite was to accept what my wife did, have an idea of why, and on that basis formulate strategies to prevent a recurrence.

I certainly blame the OM who seduced my wife. But that doesn't absolve her of guilt one iota. He had no power until she said yes.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Unbe, what I understand from your posts is that you are encouraging a BS to take responsibility where they sincerely can. Is that correct?


While I agree that marital conditions , MIGHT have some bearing on an affair, they aren't really the focus of this thread. I am primarily interested in the relationships between the BS and the OP and WS.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> You may be right that some people use this as an avoidance technique, but if so I think the reconciliation will falter down the track.
> 
> Stating the obvious, it's quite hard after an affair to rebuild trust. One of the things I found to be a prerequisite was to accept what my wife did, have an idea of why, and on that basis formulate strategies to prevent a recurrence.
> 
> I certainly blame the OM who seduced my wife. But that doesn't absolve her of guilt one iota. He had no power until she said yes.


Hey @Wazza nice to see you here again. I just want to make one thing clear I'm not absolving the AP - the are lowlife POS if they knew their partner was married. I think BSs like to assign guilt elsewhere - at least initially to process the enormity of what happened. But you make a great point R will fail if they fail to see the situation for what it is and ther spouse for who they are. What the cheating spouse did was forever alter their BS's life and that is a hell of a mountain to climb for the BS.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

unbelievable said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> > I guess Little Debbie participated in making my wife slightly overweight but being pissed at Little Debbie isn't going to change anything and if it wasn't Little Debbie it would have been Twinkies.
> ...


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> You may be right that some people use this as an avoidance technique, but if so I think the reconciliation will falter down the track.
> 
> Stating the obvious, it's quite hard after an affair to rebuild trust. One of the things I found to be a prerequisite was to accept what my wife did, have an idea of why, and on that basis formulate strategies to prevent a recurrence.
> 
> I certainly blame the OM who seduced my wife. But that doesn't absolve her of guilt one iota. He had no power until she said yes.


Seduction is a myth that BS's tell themselves. PT Barnum said that :a sucker is born every minute" and "You can't cheat an honest man" I think both are true to a certain degree. You can't seduce a person, who will not be seduced.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

jld said:


> Could it be both?



Could be general horniness or she is an endless pit of need coupled with poor coping,communication skills and a lack of integrity and empathy. This seems to be the most common scenario.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> OP, a bit of advice. This is a discussion board. There is no right or wrong per se. Just a group of people with different life experiences and opinions. That is the whole point of opening a thread like the one you started. If your intent was to get everyone to think like you, I guess I don't quite understand that. Its a great topic for discussion, but you can't expect everyone to view it from your vantage point.


Take your own advice. If this is a discussion forum, then why are you making patronizing comments and not discussing the issues of the thread? Please stick to the topic.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Seduction is a myth that BS's tell themselves. PT Barnum said that :a sucker is born every minute" and "You can't cheat an honest man" I think both are true to a certain degree. You can't seduce a person, who will not be seduced.


I don't think you can seduce a person who is satisfied already, or who is just not open to it.

For example, if you offer food to an already satisfied person, or one who is determined not to accept, the food will be rejected. To succeed, the vulnerability has to be there.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Maxo said:


> unbelievable said:
> 
> 
> > Last I checked,they are inanimate.
> ...


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Hey @Wazza nice to see you here again. I just want to make one thing clear I'm not absolving the AP - the are lowlife POS if they knew their partner was married. I think BSs like to assign guilt elsewhere - at least initially to process the enormity of what happened. But you make a great point R will fail if they fail to see the situation for what it is and ther spouse for who they are. What the cheating spouse did was forever alter their BS's life and that is a hell of a mountain to climb for the BS.


Based on what I have read,while it does occur,it seems this seduction concept is the exception among BSs and the majority place substantial blame on the cheating spouse.
Again,it is a relatively easy conept to grasp that both the cheating spouse and the AP have conspired to do harm.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Take your own advice. If this is a discussion forum, then why are you making patronizing comments and not discussing the issues of the thread? Please stick to the topic.


Your response reflects your character more than it does mine. But you get your wish. I'll find another thread.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I can't speak from a female perspective, but I can tell you that most of the male waywards I know are happy with their home lives.


I have read this about male waywards, too.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

unbelievable said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> > Debbie Mckee is a very real person. Her family is quite real and they own the company that bakes those fattening goodies. They know their products will make fat people fatter and clog arteries, etc. They know they are making husbands and wives less sexually attractive and, therefore, they are deliberately harming marriages for money. They know they are making kids fat and less likely to end up as wealthy sports stars. They are providing things people want just as the OM provides things an unhappy wife wants. If they don't supply the cookies, someone else will. If the OM doesn't provide the meat, another one will (and probably has and does).
> ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> > I guess Little Debbie participated in making my wife slightly overweight but being pissed at Little Debbie isn't going to change anything and if it wasn't Little Debbie it would have been Twinkies.
> ...


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Seems the OP has difficulty with conceptualizing that more than one person can be held liable for wrongdoing. Hard to fathom not having the ability to grasp this simple concept.


You might have a point, if having anger with, and blaming the OP can, in any way, be shown to repair the broken marriage, or rebuild the sense of self worth of the BS. Personally I don't believe it can. It seems that you are not able to conceptualize the purpose of this thread. You can apportion blame to as many or as few as you like, and best of luck to you. But that isn't what this thread is about, is it? If I were you, I wouldn't question anybody elses comprehension, when yours doesn't seem all that correct.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> > unbelievable said:
> ...


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> You might have a point, if having anger with, and blaming the OP can, in any way, be shown to repair the broken marriage, or rebuild the sense of self worth of the BS. Personally I don't believe it can. It seems that you are not able to conceptualize the purpose of this thread. You can apportion blame to as many or as few as you like, and best of luck to you. But that isn't what this thread is about, is it? If I were you, I wouldn't question anybody elses comprehension, when yours doesn't seem all that correct.


I was not considering repairing self esteem etc,merely reaponding to the initial post absolving the co-conspirator.
I do not believe blaming either conspirator is relevant to healing. Best thing for healing,IMO,is to distance oneself from the perps.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> Your response reflects your character more than it does mine. But you get your wish. I'll find another thread.


As you wish. You are perfectly free to continue , if you will stick to the issue, if not, perhaps this isn't the thread for you.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Divinely Favored said:


> unbelievable said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong analogy.....say little Debbie was putting arsenic in the Twinkies, WS knew it but ate them any way. And also fed some to her children and spouse. Fact is little Debbie is trying to take the wife out of the marriage and also doing harm to the children and BS. . I would hold wife AND little Debbie culpable.
> ...


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> Your response reflects your character more than it does mine. But you get your wish. I'll find another thread.


Rather than character,I think his posting reflects diminished candlepower.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

The spouse would be divorced, I would fight for everything while telling friends, family and children exactly why...no sugar coating. POSOM's retribution would be because of loss of my stuff and damage to my children's lives.

If one is a Christian....your body is no longer yours but your spouses and vice versa. So yes I do own my wife just as I belong to her.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> You can't seduce a person, who will not be seduced.


But if someone is at a vulnerable point, you can steer things to overcome their objections in small steps. Kind of like the salesperson who manages to sucker you in to a deal you would not ordinarily sign up for. 

I think seduction is real, but it's not an excuse for anything. My wife said yes, and kept saying yes.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Please folks , stick to the subject. I am sure that analogies about deadly crimes and pastry are interesting, but are hardly relevant. This thread isn't about the amount of blame nor about the myriads of people who CAN be blamed, nor is it about the marital conditions pre-affair. Please read the title again.
This thread is asking how blaming the OP more than the WS can help to recover from an affair, regardless of whether it is reconciliation or divorce, and how it can possibly help the BS to repair their self esteem. My personal belief is that it is counter productive, self delusional and a method by which the WS can evade some of the responsibility, with the active assistance of the BS. AKA rug sweeping and minimizing. Thank you.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

jld said:


> I have read this about male waywards, too.


What are waywards? You mean cheaters?
Women,with their greater sex drives and caoacity vs their aging spouse,are cheating for sex,a lot.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Before we start, I would like to say that when I found out about my ex wife's affair, at first I was angry at the OP, and wanted to do him harm. I soon realized that he was just the vehicle my wife used to cheat. Since then , I have paid him no mind.
> I would like to know why so many BS's blame the OP more than they blame the actual cheater (their spouse) , and how this can possibly help the BS . Isn't it just another form of rug sweeping and minimizing?


I see no impediment to healing in accurately apportioning blame. Clearly,both AP and cheater caused harm. Recognizing that should not interfere with healing.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

jld said:


> Unbe, what I understand from your posts is that you are encouraging a BS to take responsibility where they sincerely can. Is that correct?


Can a BS change anyone else's behavior? Might as well fix what you actually have the power to fix. One can make unpleasant noises for the rest of their life. One can feel offended, angry, hurt, whatever and waste the next decade blaming others for their problems, but the only things that change are those things we change within ourselves. You aren't here to teach adults manners, character, or loyalty. That was their parents' job. You are responsible for you. If some part of your life sucks, figure our what YOU can do to change it. If your answer doesn't involve fixing some malfunction within yourself, you asked the wrong question.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

unbelievable said:


> Can a BS change anyone else's behavior? Might as well fix what you actually have the power to fix. One can make unpleasant noises for the rest of their life. One can feel offended, angry, hurt, whatever and waste the next decade blaming others for their problems, but the only things that change are those things we change within ourselves. You aren't here to teach adults manners, character, or loyalty. That was their parents' job. You are responsible for you. If some part of your life sucks, figure our what YOU can do to change it. If your answer doesn't involve fixing some malfunction within yourself, you asked the wrong question.


Yes,and let's not forget to eat plenty of Little Debbies ( the cakes not the persons) as well. If you are eating Twinkies,you are eating the wrong treat( tough to control Twinkies)


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

I think it is rare that a BS places greater blame on the AP. Those that do seem to have some weird,naive view re their cheating spouse' s fundamental nature.
I see from your original post, Rookie, that this disparate blaming was the issue for you vs completely exonerating the AP.
Sorry I got that wrong.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Divinely Favored said:


> unbelievable said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong analogy.....say little Debbie was putting arsenic in the Twinkies, WS knew it but ate them any way. And also fed some to her children and spouse. Fact is little Debbie is trying to take the wife out of the marriage and also doing harm to the children and BS. . I would hold wife AND little Debbie culpable.
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If your circumstances are the consequences of your own actions, you are always in charge of where you are and where you can go.


This is empowering.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

My assessment of theAp played no role in my healing or my future. It was ,simply,an assessment,an accurate one.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

jld said:


> This is empowering.


Let' give a shout out to Tony Robbins.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

VeryHurt said:


> Sarcarsm noted but not necessary.
> Of course he was guilty, hence the divorce in progress.


I do apologize for the sarcastic remark. Your story reminded me of an incident that happened to me back when I was a plant manager, so I couldn't help myself. But your comment about a catalyst was very true.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I do apologize for the sarcastic remark. Your story reminded me of an incident that happened to me back when I was a plant manager, so I couldn't help myself. But your comment about a catalyst was very true.


A Little Debbies plant by any chance?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Hey, folks, I have no objection to a few scattered asides, I do it myself. The only thing I object to, are posters who would change the focus of a thread to grind their own axe.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> If your circumstances are the consequences of your own actions, you are always in charge of where you are and where you can go.


The truth is, your future is partly determined by factors beyond your control. With relationships, you connect with another person, and in the process you give them a degree of power over you.

I would not use the word blame to talk about what my wife did, because it has connotations of sulking and shouting "it's all your fault", at least to me. But I put a lot of focus on cause and effect. My wife has such and such a characteristic, which can lead to such and such a problem, so what do I do about that? Can it be controlled? Does it make the marriage untenable? 

Not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing.


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## WhyMe66 (Mar 25, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Before we start, I would like to say that when I found out about my ex wife's affair, at first I was angry at the OP, and wanted to do him harm. I soon realized that he was just the vehicle my wife used to cheat. Since then , I have paid him no mind.
> I would like to know why so many BS's blame the OP more than they blame the actual cheater (their spouse) , and how this can possibly help the BS . Isn't it just another form of rug sweeping and minimizing?


I do, not more than my STBXWW by any means, but I still want to do him harm. I have had nightmares where he has walked into my house and mocked me for taking her away and I have tried to terminate him with extreme prejudice-but my sidearm jams. In the same nightmare I chase him with my patrol rifle but miss him every time and the chase ends where I catch the two fornicating. One of my wonderful friends in here has deciphered this for me-telling me that the jam and the constant missing, when I am a marksman and HOG, means I am not capable of "mvrder." I see it as a public service, but... It really sucks to be a white hat.

I would say that, for me, she saved me. She made me better than I could be on my own. She loved me and I loved her. She took me beyond personal trauma, helped me recover and thrive. I do not put her on a pedestal and think she is without fault. I blame her a lot, but I also recognize her contributions to my life...


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> A Little Debbies plant by any chance?


Nope, the only dough was between the ears of some of my workers. I once had the wife of an employee come to my office and complain about her husband having an affair with another employee. I was expecting some sort of Femme Fatale, but when she told me the name of the female, I almost choked trying to not laugh. The female was one of the homeliest women in the shop, while the wife was an attractive well dressed lady. It proves my point that it isn't about the OM/OW, it is about the lack of character of the spouse.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> The truth is, your future is partly determined by factors beyond your control. With relationships, you connect with another person, and in the process you give them a degree of power over you.
> 
> I would not use the word blame to talk about what my wife did, because it has connotations of sulking and shouting "it's all your fault", at least to me. But I put a lot of focus on cause and effect. My wife has such and such a characteristic, which can lead to such and such a problem, so what do I do about that? Can it be controlled? Does it make the marriage untenable?
> 
> Not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing.


I think you are agreeing. I think Unbe is saying take responsibility where you have it. Be a role model. Use the influence you have. Do what you can, etc.

Influence over an OP is much less than over your own spouse. You have to make the call on how much return there will be on spending energy there.

Rookie, are you saying you do not think it is ever a good idea to speak to an OP?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Nope, the only dough was between the ears of some of my workers. I once had the wife of an employee come to my office and complain about her husband having an affair with another employee. I was expecting some sort of Femme Fatale, but when she told me the name of the female, I almost choked trying to not laugh. The female was one of the homeliest women in the shop, while the wife was an attractive well dressed lady. It proves my point that it isn't about the OM/OW, it is about the lack of character of the spouse.


What advice/response did you give her, if I may ask?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Please folks , stick to the subject. I am sure that analogies about deadly crimes and pastry are interesting, but are hardly relevant.


It is interesting to see how different members see infidelity from the different perspectives. I even seems to reveal who is, was or will be an AP, and how they think of what they are/will/might be doing to themselves, the WS and his/her family. 

It isn't answering your questions here, though. It is a hotbutton subject that is more than bound to get a myriad of angry posts and could get some banned. 

Many of your threads are controversial in nature. Is there a reason for that? I guess you are struggling with the difficult stuff that has no answers, like many of us? 



Rookie4 said:


> This thread isn't about the amount of blame nor about the myriads of people who CAN be blamed, nor is it about the marital conditions pre-affair. Please read the title again.


Didn't read it again. I think this post was pretty clear and I know I appreciated it. 




Rookie4 said:


> This thread is asking how blaming the OP more than the WS can help to recover from an affair, regardless of whether it is reconciliation or divorce,


Personally, I don't blame the AP more than my spouse. She wanted to do it. She chose to do it. It's on her.

I know I do blame the AP for his part. It's not more than or less than the WS. It takes two. Without one of them, it would not have happened. 



Rookie4 said:


> and how it can possibly help the BS to repair their self esteem.


I guess understanding that it takes two and that there are lots of folks out there who use affairs to placate the desire to fulfill some unmet need they have, instead of taking the high road, helps me to know that my ex is no different from many others, and so I can have a better understanding of what is out there in single land when I go looking.

If I was interested and my ex would have been interested in R, the knowledge allows me to understand just how much I have to work on and do, in order to meet her needs, and the consequences involved if and when I don't. No one can meet all the needs of their partner. 

It's a shot of reality, in my opinion. It also makes me more aware of just how lucky those men are that have never had to deal with infidelity and how compatible they must be with their wives. It also shows me that there are women out there who do not decide to look outside of themselves, when they are unhappy. 

Those are the women who deserve my utmost respect and admiration. They are not targets for my pleasure, but are women of great character who I may well learn something valuable from to help me grow into a better person. 



Rookie4 said:


> My personal belief is that it is counter productive,


See what I posted above in this reply. Though in some instances or too early in the growth and recovery of the BS, I believe this is the most likely outcome. 



Rookie4 said:


> self delusional and


In some cases, yes. Timing and amount of personal growth before considering this topic are important. 



Rookie4 said:


> a method by which the WS can evade some of the responsibility,


Depends on the weight given to each. Yes, it can be. 



Rookie4 said:


> with the active assistance of the BS.


In some cases and depending on the amount of growth of the BS and WS. 



Rookie4 said:


> AKA rug sweeping and minimizing. Thank you.


Yes, in the beginning it usually is or seems to be. I think the greater good in the beginning is to understand that it's all the WS' fault, though it's really not. 

I have to consider that the WS is in a crisis of sorts, not getting needs met for example, which causes her to go against her beliefs about her commitment to her own decisions. She is confused in many instances, hurt and afraid. She is angry and disillusioned about her decisions and life. She has not yet figured out what she wants, but is looking for reassurance and support that she is doing what is best for herself. 

In some cases, like very emotionally or physically abusive marriages, she must get out, but has got to be terribly confused and hurting. 

When considering those things, how can the AP not be seen as a selfish individual only out to get what he wants at any cost to whomever is willing to placate his need for higher self esteem? Even when he thinks he has found the woman of his dreams, he knows no more about that than anyone else, over the long term. After all, so did the WS with her BS at one time. They will have to live it to realize there conjectures and beliefs.

Seems like the greatest chance for future success is to heal and then look for both the WS and BS, not to find someone while in the throes of a bad marriage. 

So, does the WS really have it all on their shoulders? I think so because the decision she made was long before she did the deed. Though, there is some responsibility on whomever she chooses. If he wasn't making her aware of his availability and desires for her, which is assumed in many cases to be respect and caring, he would not have been the one. There would be another, who she chose, or there would be none, if she decided to wait. Otherwise, it would be rape.

This response is as controversial as your subject matter. Good luck understanding it. I have a feeling many will not be able.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I took her to the break room and showed her this "vamp" who was stealing her husband. Later on, I took her husband aside and gave him the business. It worked.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I took her to the break room and showed her this "vamp" who was stealing her husband. Later on, I took her husband aside and gave him the business. It worked.


How did the wife react when she saw the lady?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Nope, the only dough was between the ears of some of my workers. I once had the wife of an employee come to my office and complain about her husband having an affair with another employee. I was expecting some sort of Femme Fatale, but when she told me the name of the female, I almost choked trying to not laugh. The female was one of the homeliest women in the shop, while the wife was an attractive well dressed lady. It proves my point that it isn't about the OM/OW, it is about the lack of character of the spouse.


I do think it is important to consider the character of the AP when he or she is going to be around your kids.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Maxo said:


> Debbie Mckee is a very real person. Her family is quite real and they own the company that bakes those fattening goodies. They know their products will make fat people fatter and clog arteries, etc. They know they are making husbands and wives less sexually attractive and, therefore, they are deliberately harming marriages for money. They know they are making kids fat and less likely to end up as wealthy sports stars. They are providing things people want just as the OM provides things an unhappy wife wants. If they don't supply the cookies, someone else will. If the OM doesn't provide the meat, another one will (and probably has and does).


I appreciate your thinking, but it's like blaming the ****** ******* cheater dating website for its members' actions. Sure, there is an outside organization enabling the betrayals, but in infidelity, there are still two sentient people participating in the individual betrayal. In overeating snack cakes, there is only one.

I place blame on all self-aware participants, from cheater to affair partner to all enablers.



Rookie4 said:


> Seduction is a myth that BS's tell themselves. PT Barnum said that :a sucker is born every minute" and "You can't cheat an honest man" I think both are true to a certain degree. You can't seduce a person, who will not be seduced.


But conversely, a person who is not being seduced, will also not be seduced.

A moral person can choose not to interfere in someone else marriage, choose not to mess up the lives of innocent children, etc.

A good person, seeing that someone is vulnerable to seduction, can choose to avoid them, can choose to provide advice to strengthen their marriage, or can choose to inform the not-yet-betrayed spouse that their spouse is trying to stray. A good person makes a choice not to be an affair partner.

My ex's affair partner was just as selfish as my ex. I and my children were caused terrible and lasting psychological harm by this selfishness on both their parts. It's irrelevant to me that only one of them made marriage vows to me.

I would also apportion blame to people who know of an affair and help keep it secret.

Good people have an obligation to society to not participate in evil actions. And yes, it does help me to recover and move on with my life to know that I ran afoul of not just one evil person, but at least two. Certainly I assign my ex a greater portion of the blame, but there's still room to spread it around and I'm not fussed about figuring out exact proportions, which I also don't believe add up to 100%.

Had my ex's affair partner behaved differently, things could have turned out differently. So yes, I assign blame there too. And also gratitude, for exposing what a ****** I was married to. There can be both.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Wazza said:


> The truth is, your future is partly determined by factors beyond your control. With relationships, you connect with another person, and in the process you give them a degree of power over you.
> 
> I would not use the word blame to talk about what my wife did, because it has connotations of sulking and shouting "it's all your fault", at least to me. But I put a lot of focus on cause and effect. My wife has such and such a characteristic, which can lead to such and such a problem, so what do I do about that? Can it be controlled? Does it make the marriage untenable?
> 
> Not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing.


Do we not teach others how we are to be treated? You picked your wife. You have decided every day to remain with her. Every day when you are coming home from work, you decide whether you will turn left and go home or turn right and proceed on a totally different path. Can "it" be controlled? You can't control anyone but you. You can control what you will tolerate. You can't control or fix who she is but you sure as hell can change her address and her marital status. She may be a cheating bat 10 years from now but she'll only be your cheating bat if you permit it.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> I don't imagine the average AP wishes to destroy anyone's life. They probably don't seriously consider the impact of their actions on kids or on anyone's family.


Mine did. My ex's affair partner actively set out to steal my ex and my children. When I confronted them both, I asked "why did you do it??" as I'm sure many betrayed do, I got told, by the affair partner: "I thought we'd all go off and live happily ever after without you."



unbelievable said:


> There is reality and there is affair victim's perception of reality and there is the version told to the AP. He or she were probably told the marriage is over, the husband is abusive, kids hate him, etc. People hear and believe what they wish. Since the AP wants to get laid, it's not much trouble to get him to seriously believe any number of ridiculous myths.


I am well aware that my ex was actively lying about me to maintain the affair. That doesn't excuse the fact that the affair partner knew me, knew my children, and saw us together as a family and definitely understood what was being destroyed.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Why do people care if you blame the AP? I mean, the BS needs to deal with an affair how they need to deal with it. If they choose to be just as mad at the AP as they do their WS, what's the big deal? It's not like that person is innocent and the WS isn't exactly getting off the hook. 

Personally, I could care less about what the AP feels or not. They are of poor moral character as well if they are willing to knowingly engage in an affair with a married person. So, you better believe that my spouse is getting it for doing what he did, but you won't see me feeling like I shouldn't say something to the AP either. I will tell them exactly what I think of them and, if I have the resources, I will out them to everyone I can (which also will expose my spouse and I do not care). I have done this. OW was engaged when she was screwing my H. Soooo, I simply let her fiance' know what she was up to with messages that I got from her. I told her I wouldn't tell anyone, but I had to get the story straight. She messaged me (on facebook) every detail, like a moron. I, of course forwarded it to her fiance'. Didn't hurt my feelings at all. She had the nerve to be pissed at me for lying to her lol. 

In my eyes, they both deserve it. I think the WS ends up getting the blunt end of it all anyway because he/she has to live with the person they betrayed. So, it's an ongoing thing through the years and they have to live with the consequences of ruining trust in their marriage (should an R occur). 

I don't care if people think I should blame the AP or not. I'm going to anyway because it makes me feel better.... so there.... :laugh: :grin2:


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

jld said:


> What advice/response did you give her, if I may ask?
> 
> Probably to gain weight and get uglier,as her current appearance was contributing to the marital problems and not meeting her husband'needs,thus causing him to cheat.
> One must look within and see what she did that contributed,right?


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

> There is reality and there is affair victim's perception of reality and there is the version told to the AP. He or she were probably told the marriage is over, the husband is abusive, kids hate him, etc. People hear and believe what they wish. Since the AP wants to get laid, it's not much trouble to get him to seriously believe any number of ridiculous myths.



This doesn't matter. People KNOW in the deepest parts of their soul that if they get involved with a married person, sh*t is going to hit the fan. I would think that it would be fairly obvious that the WS would say just about anything to get laid. Bottom line is to stay the hell away from people who are married. DO NOT get involved with them until they are divorced. Common freakin' sense (or at least it should be).


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

staarz21 said:


> This doesn't matter. People KNOW in the deepest parts of their soul that if they get involved with a married person, sh*t is going to hit the fan. I would think that it would be fairly obvious that the WS would say just about anything to get laid. Bottom line is to stay the hell away from people who are married. DO NOT get involved with them until they are divorced. Common freakin' sense (or at least it should be).


I agree with this but one must consider that in many instances one is dealing with an AP with,essentially,the mind of a sociopathic child.
Have you ever read the posts by the OW andOM at sites like LS?
These folks sound like products of sustained inbreeding.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Maxo said:


> I agree with this but one must consider that in many instances one is dealing with an AP with,essentially,the mind of a sociopathic child.
> Have you ever read the posts by the OW andOM at sites like LS?
> These folks sound like products of sustained inbreeding.


Yes. This is very true. I've been over to LS and have read their stories. Each one of them makes me want to throw up. It is extremely hard for me to understand how someone could be so....stupid. Like, what happened to them to make them think that it's okay, that they deserve to have this person no matter the costs? 

It's really very sad.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Mine did. My ex's affair partner actively set out to steal my ex and my children. When I confronted them both, I asked "why did you do it??" as I'm sure many betrayed do, I got told, by the affair partner: "I thought we'd all go off and live happily ever after without you."
> 
> 
> 
> I am well aware that my ex was actively lying about me to maintain the affair. That doesn't excuse the fact that the affair partner knew me, knew my children, and saw us together as a family and definitely understood what was being destroyed.



Has understanding the faults of the affair partner helped you become a stronger, better person? Has it added peace to your life?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

staarz21 said:


> Yes. This is very true. I've been over to LS and have read their stories. Each one of them makes me want to throw up. It is extremely hard for me to understand how someone could be so....stupid. Like, what happened to them to make them think that it's okay, that they deserve to have this person no matter the costs?
> 
> It's really very sad.


My impression is that if you read the posts by both APs and CS, you see a dramatic drop off in intellectual capabilities as compared to the BSs. The writing is much worse both in terms of substance and expression.
I have also observed among the couples where one spouse has cheated that,more frequently,the BS is the more physically attractive of the two and more personable and kinder.
This may account for the resentment so many WSs feel toward their BSs, leading to their decisions to cheat.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> Has understanding the faults of the affair partner helped you become a stronger, better person? Has it added peace to your life?


Hard to say. I now know that the world is a darker place than I thought, and that the prevalence of selfish and evil people is much greater than I believed before. Understanding human nature better has made me more cynical, less naive. I can now recognize evil coming at me better, and I'm definitely stronger and more confident in my own integrity, whereas before I never questioned things and my integrity was untested, but I'm not sure this makes me a better person overall. I'm now more mistrusting and less generous. I definitely don't give people the benefit of the doubt like I used to. I question what people tell me, and do not automatically ascribe honesty to anybody. I am on the lookout for ulterior motives. When you think about it, everybody I'll ever meet and interact with gets to suffer indirectly because of my ex and affair partner's actions.

Was I naive and overtrusting before, and now I'm more normal? Or was I normal before and now I'm jaded and suspicious? It's hard to tell from the inside. I was thrown to rock bottom and I've crawled my way back up to the other side, where life is not the same.

And I would not say that having to share my children with my ex and the other person who destroyed their family has added any peace to my life.

Some things just are as they are and you have to deal with them that way, not as you wish they would be.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Hard to say. I now know that the world is a darker place than I thought, and that the prevalence of selfish and evil people is much greater than I believed before. Understanding human nature better has made me more cynical, less naive. I can now recognize evil coming at me better, and I'm definitely stronger and more confident in my own integrity, whereas before I never questioned things and my integrity was untested, but I'm not sure this makes me a better person overall. I'm now more mistrusting and less generous. I definitely don't give people the benefit of the doubt like I used to. I question what people tell me, and do not automatically ascribe honesty to anybody. I am on the lookout for ulterior motives. When you think about it, everybody I'll ever meet and interact with gets to suffer indirectly because of my ex and affair partner's actions.
> 
> Was I naive and overtrusting before, and now I'm more normal? Or was I normal before and now I'm jaded and suspicious? It's hard to tell from the inside. I was thrown to rock bottom and I've crawled my way back up to the other side, where life is not the same.
> 
> ...


For some reason,I do not think he expected this thoughtful of a response. Well played.
Oh,and you did not even need to throw in anything about dessert snacks.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Hard to say. I now know that the world is a darker place than I thought, and that the prevalence of selfish and evil people is much greater than I believed before. Understanding human nature better has made me more cynical, less naive. I can now recognize evil coming at me better, and I'm definitely stronger and more confident in my own integrity, whereas before I never questioned things and my integrity was untested, but I'm not sure this makes me a better person overall. I'm now more mistrusting and less generous. I definitely don't give people the benefit of the doubt like I used to. I question what people tell me, and do not automatically ascribe honesty to anybody. I am on the lookout for ulterior motives. When you think about it, everybody I'll ever meet and interact with gets to suffer indirectly because of my ex and affair partner's actions.
> 
> Was I naive and overtrusting before, and now I'm more normal? Or was I normal before and now I'm jaded and suspicious? It's hard to tell from the inside. I was thrown to rock bottom and I've crawled my way back up to the other side, where life is not the same.
> 
> ...


Learning to value and protect the right things absolutely makes you a better, stronger, person. Another word for overtrusting might be careless. If folks seriously appreciated the damage caused by divorce and broken homes they'd probably be a lot more careful about getting married or making kids. In general, if men were as reluctant to date women of bad character as they were to date women they found unattractive a lot of misery could be avoided.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Some women of good character overestimate their convictions and underestimate the impact an accomplished PUA will have on them.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Pro 6:29
So is he who goes in to his neighbor?s wife;
Whoever touches her shall not be innocent.

Pro 6:30
People do not despise a thief
If he steals to satisfy himself when he is starving.

Pro 6:31
Yet when he is found, he must restore sevenfold;
He may have to give up all the substance of his house.

Pro 6:32
Whoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding;
He who does so destroys his own soul.

Pro 6:33
Wounds and dishonor he will get,
And his reproach will not be wiped away.

Pro 6:34
For jealousy is a husband?s fury;
Therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.

Pro 6:35
He will accept no recompense,
Nor will he be appeased though you give many gifts.

I will never fault, or convict a BS as AP's have been warned. It's just a shame WS do not loose rights to every thing.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Do we not teach others how we are to be treated? You picked your wife. You have decided every day to remain with her. Every day when you are coming home from work, you decide whether you will turn left and go home or turn right and proceed on a totally different path. Can "it" be controlled? You can't control anyone but you. You can control what you will tolerate. You can't control or fix who she is but you sure as hell can change her address and her marital status. She may be a cheating bat 10 years from now but she'll only be your cheating bat if you permit it.


Very true, and a very straightforward decision for those who went into the relationship knowing their partner was going to cheat.

For those who were taken by surprise, it becomes a more nuanced discussion about how likely the infidelity was, and why they didn't see it coming. Or a decision to eliminate the risk entirely by remaining alone.

And there are complexities like, had I left my wife, it would have been a life changing decision for my kids. My decisions were about more than me.

You play the hand you are dealt. But you don't get to predetermine what cards you are given, and you really are still learning the rules when you're young.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

Maxo said:


> My impression is that if you read the posts by both APs and CS, you see a dramatic drop off in intellectual capabilities as compared to the BSs. The writing is much worse both in terms of substance and expression.
> I have also observed among the couples where one spouse has cheated that,more frequently,the BS is the more physically attractive of the two and more personable and kinder.
> This may account for the resentment so many WSs feel toward their BSs, leading to their decisions to cheat.


Here is a text exchange I read between my STBX and his AP shortly after I found out about her and he stupidly didn't change the passcode on his phone.

STBX: Had a good sleep at the hotel in Quito. Getting some breakfast now. Will call you later when I get to Miami. Love you.

AP: Bailey [her dog] woke me up early this morning. But I payed him back. Talk to you later. Love you!

Notice the misspelling of paid. And what is her job? Writing training materials for financial planners. Also, is this a two-way conversation? Or two narcissists just talking about themselves? Finally, how, exactly, does one pay a dog back for waking her up early?

God, I hate both of these a$$holes.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> There are two sides to every story. Obviously, almost everyone here spins a story that shows themselves in a favorable light. You can get he same from inmates of any prison. A fool is wise in his own eyes. Even if we imagine that someone is a complete saint and their wife or husband cheats, who picked them as a mate? There are no good guys or bad guys in marriage. There are unions that work and those that don't.


I tend to agree. But the revealed wisdom here on TAM is that the cheating spouse is to blame for everything. And there is a certain truth to that in most cases. With no fault divorce one is able to leave an unwanted relationship without cheating.

It is ironic that one reason the cheating spouse often doesn't file for divorce is that they don't want to be seen as the one at fault.

But in the end it does not matter if both have faults or not. By the time folks get here the marriage is in trouble. Where the issue of fault comes into play is in a reconciliation attempt. It takes only one to have a divorce, but it takes two for a reconciliation. And that is where the betrayed spouse's faults do come into play. The reconciliations that seem to have the most chance of succeeding are those where faults on both sides are openly discussed, often with a counselor present.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Divinely Favored said:


> Pro 6:29
> So is he who goes in to his neighbor?s wife;
> Whoever touches her shall not be innocent.
> 
> ...


Where did you find this stuff? It sounds sort of biblical.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

My favorite,from Leviticus: He that doth probe the nether regions of a married woman shall suffer pole inflamation.
Or Job: She that is drilled deep by a man other than her husband,is forever stretched beyond that which grips. "


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Where did you find this stuff? It sounds sort of biblical.


It is. Specifically, Proverbs 6... abbreviated Pro, instead of spelling it out.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Ok, God frowns on adulterers but He's also not keen on folks who have sex before marriage, so a whole bunch of us are on the naughty list. The way I read my Bible, every human is a sinner and there aren't different levels of God's wrath for sin.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> Ok, God frowns on adulterers but He's also not keen on folks who have sex before marriage, so a whole bunch of us are on the naughty list. The way I read my Bible, every human is a sinner and there aren't different levels of God's wrath for sin.


I may need to crack open my Old Testament but, as I recall, the prescribed penalty for pre-marital sex is marriage; for adultery, it's an epic beatdown (for OM, anyway).

Not sure which is worse. :lol: :rofl:

And as far God's wrath goes, I seem to remember that blasphemy draws an especially severe consequence.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

jld said:


> I think you are agreeing. I think Unbe is saying take responsibility where you have it. Be a role model. Use the influence you have. Do what you can, etc.
> 
> Influence over an OP is much less than over your own spouse. You have to make the call on how much return there will be on spending energy there.
> 
> Rookie, are you saying you do not think it is ever a good idea to speak to an OP?


I don't see how it would be productive, to do so. Hey, I'm like everybody else, if I had seen the OP immediately after the affair, I would have probably done him bodily harm, but that would have done my marriage, my self esteem, irreparable harm, not to mention the criminal issues.
Of course, if the OP is a close friend, or family member, it might be unavoidable.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

jld said:


> How did the wife react when she saw the lady?


At first , I don't think she believed it. After I had a talk with her husband, the subject never came up again. I do know that they stayed married.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> I do think it is important to consider the character of the AP when he or she is going to be around your kids.


PLease try to stay on topic. We are talking about the productivity of blaming the OP more or less than the WS, and how it effects recovery. Your post is an issue for another thread.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> It is interesting to see how different members see infidelity from the different perspectives. I even seems to reveal who is, was or will be an AP, and how they think of what they are/will/might be doing to themselves, the WS and his/her family.
> 
> It isn't answering your questions here, though. It is a hotbutton subject that is more than bound to get a myriad of angry posts and could get some banned.
> 
> ...


My threads are not all that controversial, it is usually the issues I start those threads about , which are controversial, and also it is because I'm not afraid to tackle them. I stated, long ago , when I first came to TAM, that my main concern was self improvement for all posters.. I have no interest in whether or not a couple divorce or reconcile, as long as the individuals are better adjusted people after it, than they were before.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

```

```



Rookie4 said:


> PLease try to stay on topic. We are talking about the productivity of blaming the OP more or less than the WS, and how it effects recovery. Your post is an issue for another thread.


Consideration of the effects on my kids was an element in my recovery. I needed to assess culpability in order to make a judgement on certain actions I took.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> I may need to crack open my Old Testament but, as I recall, the prescribed penalty for pre-marital sex is marriage; for adultery, it's an epic beatdown (for OM, anyway).
> 
> Not sure which is worse. :lol: :rofl:
> 
> And as far God's wrath goes, I seem to remember that blasphemy draws an especially severe consequence.


I guess we will find out.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

If a Christian is practicing(in the sin and unremorseful) their "sins unto death" that are listed, and has not repented and turned from those sins, the Bible says "they shall not inherit the kingdom of God."


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[fn] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness
Gal 5:20
idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Gal 5:21
envy, murders,[fn] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If I would have died while an unrepentant fornicater before I was married, yes I would have went to hell.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> If a Christian is practicing(in the sin and unremorseful) their "sins unto death" that are listed, and has not repented and turned from those sins, the Bible says "they shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
> 
> 
> Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[fn] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness
> ...


What does your Bible say about thread/jacking? If you cannot stay on topic, please go elsewhere. There are many other threads where your views on sin would be appreciated, but they are not at all appropriate to my thread. I would guess that most , if not all posters who have posted here realize that cheating is a bad thing to do, and don't need your opinion of a Bible verse to tell them so. It is extremely rude.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> What does your Bible say about thread/jacking? If you cannot stay on topic, please go elsewhere. There are many other threads where your views on sin would be appreciated, but they are not at all appropriate to my thread. I would guess that most , if not all posters who have posted here realize that cheating is a bad thing to do, and don't need your opinion of a Bible verse to tell them so. It is extremely rude.


The Bible seems to be silent on this. Please stay on topic and stop asking rhetorical questions.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> *My threads are not all that controversial, it is usually the issues I start those threads about , which are controversial,* and also it is because I'm not afraid to tackle them. I stated, long ago , when I first came to TAM, that my main concern was self improvement for all posters.. I have no interest in whether or not a couple divorce or reconcile, as long as the individuals are better adjusted people after it, than they were before.


Yes, that's true. The issues you start those threads about do make the threads controversial.  :laugh:


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Before we start, I would like to say that when I found out about my ex wife's affair, at first I was angry at the OP, and wanted to do him harm. I soon realized that he was just the vehicle my wife used to cheat. Since then , I have paid him no mind.
> 
> I would like to know why so many BS's blame the OP more than they blame the actual cheater (their spouse) , and how this can possibly help the BS . Isn't it just another form of rug sweeping and minimizing?



For me, the OP became a convenient place holder for the anger and the hate of the utter and complete betrayal my WS subjected me to. We tried to R. Maybe that's not quite accurate. I tried. She thought it was just a matter of waiting for me to just get over it, without her putting in much effort to change anything on her part. 

So, as I peeled back the layers in mind mind over time, as one is apt to do, and got madder at the injustice of it all, I could pour the ocean of rage onto that *******, who meant nothing to me really, and still walk through the door and try to rebuild a life with my WS. But really, he's been just a stand in for the piece of trash I married, all along. 

I would've preferred to go ballistic at the time, to wreak all the havoc on her life then (she's an artist, and had her affair just as she got a massive break through commission, the kind of thing we had been working towards for over a decade. It came with an intense timeline, that she could never have met without my cooperation, or if I drained the bank accounts). That would have punished me more though, so I'm relieved I played the long game. I should come through the divorce relatively intact at this point, but it took 4 long years for the economics to balance out.

I still hate the OP though. I trained it into my mind, every time I redirected the negative thoughts from my WS to him.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Yes, that's true. The issues you start those threads about do make the threads controversial.  :laugh:


Oh, yeah! I started a thread about treating WS with common courtesy and respect, and it created a tremendous uproar. I also started one about the "fog", same thing. How are we to ever get a handle on the difficult issues of infidelity, if we do not tackle the hotbed subjects?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Oh, yeah! I started a thread about treating WS with common courtesy and respect, and it created a tremendous *uproar*. I also started one about the "fog", same thing. How are we to ever get a handle on the difficult issues of infidelity, if we do not tackle the hotbed subjects?


Most of your threads go this way because of your inability to see other perspectives and demean those who don't agree with you. Some leave because of it and other won't be intimidated.... hence the uproar.

In this case I actually agree with you. I know I did ,at one time, blame the OM for my X wife's affair. As a defense mechanism I wanted desperately to believe she was some innocent victim and he seduced her and manipulated her. Then you find out it was all her idea and that changes some things. 

At the end of the day I married an immoral person and she did what immoral people do, she cheated. The OM, don't even know the guy. I did have some bones to pick with him coming into my house while I was having surgery but at the end of the day he was taking what she was handing out. 

I married a partner or low character, and knew she was...that was on me.
She knew better and cheated, that is on her
He is a PuA at work and was happy to take what she was giving out, could care less about him.

I only care about who made vows to me not someone I never met and don't know


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Oh, yeah! I started a thread about treating WS with common courtesy and respect, and it created a tremendous uproar. I also started one about the "fog", same thing. How are we to ever get a handle on the difficult issues of infidelity, if we do not tackle the hotbed subjects?


Agree, but nothing is ever settled for good, because we all are different and there really isn't a correct answer, as long as the law is not broken. 

Believe me, there are ways to set people up for a fall and not get into trouble. It was done to me. It can be done to others, as well. 

Since we can't control anyone but ourselves, maybe we should discuss how to handle what was done, instead? 

Sometimes, what folks need is a way to get a little revenge without losing themselves or breaking the law. Sometimes, folks just need to heal. Everyone is different. Not everyone will see the AP as anything more than guilty. 

Some like to make the AP sound like an innocent victim. Of course s/he's not innocent. Basically, that's how you incite vitriol with threads. We all know they aren't innocent. Even when they don't realize s/he was married. It's our responsibility, each of us, to know who and what we are getting into, as adults. 

Even the law does not provide for the innocence of a criminal, when s/he doesn't know the statutes. 

I think these threads are less about helping, sometimes, and more about anger, frustration, and a little smug vengefulness. 

All I'm asking is that you consider those thoughts. See you later.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I know several cheaters personally. Two are my brothers, unfortunately. One left his wife and two young daughters for a woman he met while online gaming. He's married to her now. She was divorced at the time and so was "only" an AP. I still think she's a POS. And getting to know her hasn't changed that initial assessment. My other brother is a serial cheater. After two failed marriages that ended due to his cheating (and he had a healthy sexual relationship with both of his wives at the times he cheated), he at least finally realizes that marriage is not for him. I think all the women who cheated with him knowing he was married - and some knew his wives - are all pieces of sh!t. Yes, I think my brothers breaking their vows are sh!ttier for doing that than their APs for joining in. But I still judge the APs. And I did that before it happened to me.

I've known a few women IRL who have cheated with married men. One was married herself at the time, and it was a revenge affair. And she knew the guy's wife. Sh!tty of her to do. The other two were single at the time and didn't know their APs' wives. Still sh!tty of them to do.

I'm sorry, but I don't like cheaters. It's not because I'm projecting my hurt and anger with my ex onto someone else that I hate his AP, though I do understand the psychology of that when you're trying to reconcile, or you're struggling to come to terms with the fact that you married a POS. But there's no chance of reconciliation in our case - never has been - and I've known he was a POS since the moment I discovered his affair. I hate her and I judge all the people I know who've been APs because I don't understand what makes a person feel so entitled that they can justify to themselves fvcking someone else's husband or wife.

Actually, the one woman whose role as the AP to a married man I know of who disturbs me the most is the revenge affair woman. She knew very well how devastating being cheated on hurts, and yet she helped do it to another woman who was innocent in the whole thing. That's just unfathomable selfishness to me.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Oh, yeah! I started a thread about treating WS with common courtesy and respect, and it created a tremendous uproar. I also started one about the "fog", same thing. How are we to ever get a handle on the difficult issues of infidelity, if we do not tackle the hotbed subjects?


Again,I would ask you stay on topic. Thank you.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I was angry at the OP at first, much like the standard response of others. 

After a while, it passed. I just didn't give a fk anymore. That's too much energy to expend in the brain bucket trying to find who's at fault. 

Whatevs. I'm free. They can have each other if it ever comes to pass like that again. 

(As an aside, I have a very amicable relationship with the ex. Probably not the norm. I understood my faults. And hers. In the end, we are both happy and much better people, I think. Again, probably not the norm. But it does make co-parenting much easier as we can both discuss things regarding the kids without past history clouding our judgements).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Although she did suck away a good nest egg of my cash. And a good monthly premium, at that. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Most of your threads go this way because of your inability to see other perspectives and demean those who don't agree with you. Some leave because of it and other won't be intimidated.... hence the uproar.
> 
> In this case I actually agree with you. I know I did ,at one time, blame the OM for my X wife's affair. As a defense mechanism I wanted desperately to believe she was some innocent victim and he seduced her and manipulated her. Then you find out it was all her idea and that changes some things.
> 
> ...


Not true, I have no objection to anyone disagreeing with me, as long as their POV is backed up by evidence and not popular opinion.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Agree, but nothing is ever settled for good, because we all are different and there really isn't a correct answer, as long as the law is not broken.
> 
> Believe me, there are ways to set people up for a fall and not get into trouble. It was done to me. It can be done to others, as well.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, in the main. PLus, of course you are one of the few who actually answered my question about how blaming the AP helps with recovery.. I think that it can sometimes help with self worth issues, to blame the AP, but unfortunately most BS's use their distaste for the AP to exculpate the WS, which , to my mind , isn't helpful at all. I also didn't expect most BS's to answer the question, instead they relist emphatically, all of the AP's faults and sins. They simply do not take into consideration the difference between guilt, innocence.....or irrelevance. 
I say, make it easy on yourself, and don't invite additional drama, whether you R or D, has nothing to do with the AP, at all. He/she was involved in the affair, why invite him/her into your recovery?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Iagree. Your issues are,primarily wih your cheater. I realized right away thatAP had done me a favor,assisting me to jettison an abusive spouse. I thanked him.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

SunCMars said:


> Sorry @unbelievable but that is an unbelievable statement.
> 
> I am going to tear into this....notion.
> 
> ...


*

If he's culpable as an accessory, then the wife is a principal to the "crime". If he deserves to have his face smashed in, it stands to reason she deserves at least that much. Maybe she deserves to be murdered? With that in mind, glance over at your wife and wonder if she's with you because she wants to be or because she doesn't want to be murdered. Any fool can punch someone or blow someone's head off. Doesn't make you a man, a great husband, a loving husband. Just means you can be violent just like kids in Middle School can be, just like ISIS terrorists can be. That fear and intimidation horse crap works only as long as you are in a position to be aware of an offense and you actually have the means to exert violence, presumably, without getting worse in return. Do you eat food your wife prepares? Do you sleep in her presence? I'll submit you are at least as vulnerable to violence as she is. She can put an end to you without you even being aware you were attacked. If you don't believe women kill men or that small scrawny men and kids kill larger men, you are welcome to ride around with me for a while and see for yourself. 

If a woman isn't faithful to me because she wants to be I don't want her. If I have to threaten or even remind some guy to stay away from my wife it's only because she has given him invitational messages. She's perfectly capable of telling a guy to get lost. 

If you beat or even killed some other guy your wife was chatting up, what would you have achieved? You'd still have a cheating wife and there would still be about 160 million other males in this country. You gonna kill or beat them all?*


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> If he's culpable as an accessory, then the wife is a principal to the "crime". If he deserves to have his face smashed in, it stands to reason she deserves at least that much. Maybe she deserves to be murdered? With that in mind, glance over at your wife and wonder if she's with you because she wants to be or because she doesn't want to be murdered. Any fool can punch someone or blow someone's head off. Doesn't make you a man, a great husband, a loving husband. Just means you can be violent just like kids in Middle School can be, just like ISIS terrorists can be. That fear and intimidation horse crap works only as long as you are in a position to be aware of an offense and you actually have the means to exert violence, presumably, without getting worse in return. Do you eat food your wife prepares? Do you sleep in her presence? I'll submit you are at least as vulnerable to violence as she is. She can put an end to you without you even being aware you were attacked. If you don't believe women kill men or that small scrawny men and kids kill larger men, you are welcome to ride around with me for a while and see for yourself.
> 
> If a woman isn't faithful to me because she wants to be I don't want her. If I have to threaten or even remind some guy to stay away from my wife it's only because she has given him invitational messages. She's perfectly capable of telling a guy to get lost.
> 
> If you beat or even killed some other guy your wife was chatting up, what would you have achieved? You'd still have a cheating wife and there would still be about 160 million other males in this country. You gonna kill or beat them all?


Dude, you really need counseling. All of this violent and disturbing stuff , has nothing whatsoever to do with my thread. If you cannot realize this, don't post. I will report you to the moderator if you do it again.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, you really need counseling. All of this violent and disturbing stuff , has nothing whatsoever to do with my thread. If you cannot realize this, don't post. I will report you to the moderator if you do it again.


You did notice I was directly responding to another poster's comments?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I don't care. This thread has NOTHING to do with Isis, or murder, or crimes of violence. If you cannot understand the original question and cannot post on topic, then go somewhere else. You have been warned.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, you really need counseling. All of this violent and disturbing stuff , has nothing whatsoever to do with my thread. If you cannot realize this, don't post. I will report you to the moderator if you do it again.





unbelievable said:


> You did notice I was directly responding to another poster's comments?


No, man. You seriously escalated it beyond what you were responding to. Unbelievable, I have agreed with you on some things, but dude... this was so far beyond scary. All Sun was saying is that if one is guilty of the act, so is the other. You pushed it into murder, ISIS, etc. I don't normally agree with @Rookie4, but on this one? I do.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I trust you found a safe place.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

@unbelievable statement:
My life is the result of my own choices just as your's is the result of your choices. 
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is so wrong in so may ways. Yes, of course we have freedom of choice. But so do the all the other 5 billion people on this planet. And the vast majority of the other creatures will ride roughshod over your choices if they interfere with theirs. I could turn this into an Existential Philosophical argument but it would turn off 99% of the Avatars on this Forum. 

Me? I get that, and I accept my limitations. No one said that you have to like the rules of living as a biped with opposable thumbs. When you look to the left and then to the right, you see thousands of people with sh!t-eatin grins on their faces when there "ain't nuttin funny gone on." And there you are singing the ditty: "Stuck in the Middle with Youse"!


YOUR destiny is melded with all the other life forms on this planet, snakes, bugs, viruses, bacteria, plant life, fish, crocodiles, sharks and my favorite, Black Angus Beef. And this in co-existent/continuum with all the things that "happen" on any given day. You are a cog in the wheel, a gear in a massive clock that continually replicates its parts [some with errors]. You are buffeted by Winds of Change and your sail can only tack zig-zag to any desired direction. There are no bee-line runs to an end point. More like skittering, bobbing and weaving.




_________________________________________________________________________________________________________ @unbelievable statement:
We aren't put down here to teach adults manners or punish anyone
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Tell that to the ~2 million men and women that are imprisoned in this country.

You want to live on some patch of dirt on this globe? Well, you will obey "The Rules of the Rulers" of that patch, or you will be punished.
This is why we have a Civilizations. I say that with one eye closed.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________



@unbelievable statement:
Rather than punching someone's face in for boinking your willing old lady, your energy would be better put to use throwing her out and finding someone decent. 
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I agree with this. The punching is not recommended, lest you join the other ~2 million in prison.

There are other ways to get even with POSOMs. Exposure to everyone under the Sun. to include their son if they have one. I can think of a million ways to "Publish their Smut Book".

Rat-A-Tat-Tat.........
















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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

C'mon, posters , is this topic too hard or something? Of 181 posts, fewer than twenty ( other than my own posts)actually address the issue. But this, in a backhanded way, actually proves a lot of what I'm trying to get across. I wonder how many man-hours are spent, by the BS, worrying about and blaming the AP? Time that would be much, much, much, better spent reconciling the marriage, or divorcing or any other form of self improvement. How hard can this be? STOP telling me how evil the AP is, or making childish threats . ....we already know that the AP isn't a sterling character...right? What I want to hear, is HOW DOES ANY OF THIS HELP THE BS, POST AFFAIR. .......Jeez Louise.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, that is your decision. Too bad, really. If you had just said your middle paragraph without the other nonsense and snarling, we could probably have discussed the issue. I'm willing to listen to all opinions, as long as they are about the questions I ask , when I started the thread. What I am not interested in, is hearing another round of tedious rants about the evil Op, and all of the bad things you want to do to him/her but lack the guts to do so. Which is.....surprise!!, why I asked the question, in the first place.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SunCMars said:


> @Rookie4
> 
> Here on this Forum, TAM, we call the OP, the OM.....or less delicately POS-OM or POSOM. OM means Other Man...POS means Piece of Sh!t
> 
> OP is normally given when referencing the BS.


On TAM we use "OP" to mean the "original post" or "original poster" on a thread.

OM = other man.

Using OP to mean OM will confuse a lot of people.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> On TAM we use "OP" to mean the "original post" or "original poster" on a thread.
> 
> OM = other man.
> 
> Using OP to mean OM will confuse a lot of people.


Pretty sure he meant it as "other person", which could refer to either an OM or an OW.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Pretty sure he meant it as "other person", which could refer to either an OM or an OW.


I agree that he meant "other person". To me that's confusing on TAM since here "OP" is usually used to mean "original post/poster". "OM" and "OW" are much more descriptive of the actual person being referred to.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> On TAM we use "OP" to mean the "original post" or "original poster" on a thread.
> 
> OM = other man.
> 
> Using OP to mean OM will confuse a lot of people.


Potayto, potahto, Ele. I use both interchangeably. BTW, how you doin?:smile2:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Potayto, potahto, Ele. I use both interchangeably. BTW, how you doin?:smile2:


Doing a bit better every day.. >


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Pretty sure he meant it as "other person", which could refer to either an OM or an OW.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hiya, Gus, you ole Whippersnapper, you. Actually , I prefer either instead of POSOM or any other silly rant phrase. You older posters know that I have always been my own man, right?


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

OP to refers to the original poster as a base standard of message boards. However, due to the various acronyms of various types of message boards, those base level ones tend to get overridden. Especially at one such as this where everything is some sort of acronym (which drives me nuts cause I hate text talk).


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Doing a bit better every day.. >


Glad to hear it, except I am a little concerned about that devil smilie.:grin2:


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Hiya, Gus, you ole Whippersnapper, you. Actually , I prefer either instead of POSOM or any other silly rant phrase. You older posters know that I have always been my own man, right?


Again, please stay on topic, or I will have to report you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I have cleaned up much of a thread jack that was talking about murdering OP/OM. Do not continue the thread jack. 

(Speaking as a moderator)


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I have cleaned up much of a thread jack that was talking about murdering OP/OM. Do not continue the thread jack.
> 
> (Speaking as a moderator)


Might as well let it go, Elegirl. I have tried , but apparently it just isn't happening. So I've given up on it. If you want to close it, be my guest. But don't ever lose your girlish charm.:grin2:


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