# Zen and the art of separation



## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

After a year of trying to make it work, I was shown that trying in my case ... well... doesn't.

I've been in love with him for so long. I tried everything (see my other threads)

He hurt me so bad this Sunday, he broke my "give a damn". And that is one sturdy piece of hardware.

Right now, I'm just in the barely talk, don't ask for anything, say the minimum to get by phase.

I can't leave right now (in a pending case with my ex - nothing to do with this marriage) so I'm stuck. I can't stick up for myself at all. 

Once you stop caring, things are easier. Not optimal mind you, but easier. 

He says good morning. I say good morning. There is no anger between us, no vileness, no resentment. All that is long past. For nine months, I would beg for affection, he would 'allow' me to hug him but never hug me back. This was the same in all areas. 

Last night he even asked if he could hug me. I 'allowed' it. patted him on the shoulder. 

It's unfortunate he had to be an a$$ for so long, but that was his choice. 

Right now I'm just moving from one moment to the next, trying to survive. He's not much help, but not a hinderance either. I'm giving him nothing to fight about, nothing to resist.

I do not argue with him. Ever. He thinks the kids should go to bed at 8pm without having their homework done or having dinner? yes dear. Normally I would suggest making them dinner myself, checking homework etc. That would cause a huge fight because I was 'bucking' his decision.

He's confused right now, doesn't understand why I won't argue when he does something incredibly mean, selfish or stupid. As long as it will not affect the life or limb of the kids, i've vowed to stay out of it. He's gone enough that I can parent and be who I want when he's gone.

We have a business together. He's done some rather suicidal things business-wise. I'm the 'boss' and 'CEO' with 20+ years experience running a business where he has none. If i ever made a decision without him he would yell at me. (Hello. i'm the boss, remember? The one responsible?) If I ever suggested he change something, he would sulk and pout. Now I let him do what he wants and fix things after him. Pick up the pieces as it were.

I'm cold certianly but not so much that he can complain about it. That's the key. 

I still speak when spoken to, and pleasantly. I admire any little piece of crap he brings to me to admire. I agree with him when he asks me a question designed to elicit a positive answer. He says goodnight, I say goodnight.

Funny thing is, for a year now he's accused me of 'playing games'. If anything, I've only now begun to 'play games' as I'm forced into this corner and no longer have a choice. And only now does he think i'm finally "not" playing games. 

What an idiot.

Anyway, this thread will chronicle my passage from 'trying' to save us to 'just surviving'. 

Hopefully it will keep me sane


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

3am. I have bronchitis and am asleep. He wakes me up to ask me to get up at 6am and get the kids ready for school. He's been up watching TV all night. 

Sure. (selfish ba$tard) 

Most of my real dialog is in my head these days I've noticed. I didn't used to be like that. what you got was my real feelings, usually love and tenderness.

5am - I'm coughing my lungs practically out, running a fever, lungs filled up with fluid about 1/4 of the way - seems to have turned into pneumonia. He was supposed to the get heater in the house fixed last year. he never did it. 

He notes only 'you sound sick'
'yeah.' (brilliant Sherlock)

7am - Drove the kids to school. He's still snoring. 

8am - Go to court proceeding on my Ex. He's still snoring. Had to ask my 17 yr old teen to drive me (there is no parking downtown)
Nothing like being abandoned by the man who is supposed to be your husband. Ah. screw it


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

A year ago he told me that he no longer wanted a personal relationship with me. (whatever that means) 

He spent the year being barely nice to me (see above, but worse)
while I spent the year trying my best to make him happy. I was affectionate, loving, kind, trying etc. 

He got to enjoy all the perks of having someone love him without having to give anything of himself. 

Now I'm no longer giving like I used to. He seems to miss it. Shrug. His problem, not mine.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

I wish you luck, you have my support.


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## jonnydee (Jan 14, 2009)

snix11,

You are on the right path. Go low. Hide. Plan in the shadows. Use your energy to stop focusing on what a **** he is and focus instead on why you continued to shower love and affection on someone who made it clear he didn't feel the same way. Focus on yourself. Get your affairs him order. Get legal advice on how you can fire him from your business. Figure out a way to move him out or move yourself out. You sound like an amazing person. You have the inner resources to dig yourself out of this. Don't be rash. Don't fight. His enjoyment of your calm but distant state will change--he'll get angry. Get a plan and work your plan to independence.

jd


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

snix11 said:


> 3am. I have bronchitis and am asleep. He wakes me up to ask me to get up at 6am and get the kids ready for school. He's been up watching TV all night.
> 
> Sure. (selfish ba$tard)
> 
> ...


you do sound like you have real feelings...one notably: hate.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Snix

This was so hard to read. You’ve moved into acceptance. Acceptance that he is not and likely will not be the man he was or you thought he was. Acceptance that the relationship has decayed beyond recognition. Acceptance that no matter your course of action it is in vain as you have no responding partner. While acceptance does ease the anxiety you’ve suffered for so long, your loss and solitude read loudly in your thread. You’ve let go. At times we must all hit bottom before we can start to climb. I hope you have reached that point and will now find other outlets to channel your efforts into. Your children, your business and yourself. I’m truly touched by this post and wish you all the best. You certainly deserve it.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Today's update: 

5pm. Spent all day in court. I found out last week that my Ex had 40x this year told my 8 yr old that if he didn't shoplift, he would spank him! Yeah, you heard that right. If he stole more than 10 times, he would reward him with Chucky Cheese. I was shocked! Could this be true?? 

Then I heard from my 17 year old that he had witnessed it. Then I heard from my 21 yr old that she had witnessed it too! I made a police report. The police told me it was theft by coercion, but wasn't a crime since the kid was under 10 years old. Shocked again. 

The Judge ruled that it wasn't addressable and the child will have to have visits with his dad again. My ex has threatened the kid, but it doesn't make a difference. 

My ex asked the court to make me sell my house and give him the money plus give him 18,000.00. The court only ruled on the visitation and child support today. 

My 17yr old son testified. The judge believed him but said the evidence was too old to be usable now. 

Hubby showed up because it was unclear if they would be able to set aside the old divorce from 2005 (what my ex wants) and claim that we are still married so that I'm now a bigamist. Hubby did not have to testify. 

He has been cordial, but backed off on being nice. I don't miss it. 

Gosh what a day. Would that I had a good man to come home to 

ah well.


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

snix11 said:


> Today's update:
> 
> 5pm. Spent all day in court. I found out last week that my Ex had 40x this year told my 8 yr old that if he didn't shoplift, he would spank him! Yeah, you heard that right. If he stole more than 10 times, he would reward him with Chucky Cheese. I was shocked! Could this be true??
> 
> ...



oh man, what a creep...should be something that h&w could deal with...but i don't know the bureacracies...

you ended up in a whole different place than you bargained for and i'm sure that's a shock..i'm sorry..

"good man to come home to"...that will happen if you want it...good luck..


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

"wanting" a good man to come home to hasn't helped so far. 

All I can do it try to get thru one day at a time.

Yesterday - more problems, more issues. Even trying to relate on something small he makes me feel worthless. 

He asks me what is wrong, then immediately turns away if i start to answer and plays with the baby, ignoring me - throwing him up in the air, talking to him etc. If I don't answer, I'm accused of being rude. If I say that I don't want to talk about it, i'm accused of being rude. 

It's hardly worth staying awake for.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

We're all behind you.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks Mark and all. 

This weekend was worse than I had hoped. 

Friday we were supposed to go to that show. He asked me why I wasn't going. I really didn't feel like telling him and getting into another big fight. 

But, I did tell him. And yes, that caused him to rail on me for hours. Gee whiz, i'm SO glad I tell him what I feel. NOT. 

I figured what the heck, be honest. Let him deal with that anyway he wants. I said, "look. For me to go to this event, which i feel is a very romantic and special time, I would need you to hold me, look me in the eye and tell me you love me, want me to go, need me to go. something like that. No, I do not expect you to do it, which is why i'm planning on staying home and having a good time with the kids. have a great time, see you when you get back"

Well. That done pissed him off royally. He started typing to me. 

herein lies the text... tell me what you think...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

I think you are fine to tell him what you feel if he asks. It's his problem if he can't handle it, and your problem if you can't handle him not handling it.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

he asks me if i can please explain why it's so important to me for this to be a 'romantic' night out. Why can't it just be a 'light' thing like bowling.

Friday January16,2009 [13:54PM] me: jc superstar is a very very special thing to me 
Friday January16,2009 [13:54PM] me: i can't explain it in 'light' terms 
Friday January16,2009 [13:54PM] me: lots of the songs in there mean a great deal to me
Friday January16,2009 [13:55PM] me: i consider it something totally romantic, like a date at the majestic... it's romance and love and light and just totally something that i consider really really special 
Friday January16,2009 [13:55PM] me: not something i would do 'lightly'

Friday January16,2009 [14:01PM] Hubby: I was not aware that you needed a label on it, i thought that it was something we could do together with our friends

Friday January16,2009 [14:01PM] me: you said "you think i don't consider it a romantic date' 
Friday January16,2009 [14:01PM] Hubby: i made an assumtion, sorry for that
Friday January16,2009 [14:02PM] me: that's what i was asking. do you consider it a romantic date or just some light thing out with friends? 

(notice he would NEVER answer me on that one...)

Friday January16,2009 [14:20PM] Hubby: what is the reason that you have decided not to go?

Friday January16,2009 [14:50PM] me: because of all that's happened to me this week, i really need you to show me i was without a doubt wanted and needed and loved and desired. That you would tell me reasons why so I would know that you meant it. That you would somehow convey that you needed me to go with you. 

Friday January16,2009 [14:50PM] me: i need you to take me in your arms and tell me these things and show me these things. 

and if you were feeling that you didn't want that closeness with me, that you couldn't or didn't want to do that, that you would simply tell me (which i feel your actions have done to this point) so that I wouldn't put my heart out on my sleeve once again and look stupid and silly. that's all. 

Friday January16,2009 [14:52PM] Hubby: so........................you are not going because i did not live up to your expectations of what you thought I should do?

Friday January16,2009 [14:53PM] me:so if you didn't want that, i could stay home and watch movies with k and forget about romance and stuff like that. 

Friday January16,2009 [14:57PM] Hubby: again , expectations that i have fallen short of fullfilling

Friday January16,2009 [14:57PM] me: just one you are choosing right not not to fulfill I guess. 

Friday January16,2009 [14:58PM] me: if you need a hug (sometimes you ask for one... like this morning, remember?) 
Friday January16,2009 [14:59PM] me: i can either answer your request for a hug with 'I've hugged you four times this week. wasn't that good enough for you?" and "I see i've fallen short of your expectations again' or 
Friday January16,2009 [14:59PM] me: OR 
Friday January16,2009 [14:59PM] me: i 
Friday January16,2009 [14:59PM] me: could 
Friday January16,2009 [14:59PM] me: just 
Friday January16,2009 [14:59PM] me: give 
Friday January16,2009 [14:59PM] me: you 
Friday January16,2009 [14:59PM] me: a 
Friday January16,2009 [14:59PM] me: hug 
Friday January16,2009 [15:00PM] me: which one do you think makes more love? 

Friday January16,2009 [15:02PM] Hubby: .what i am hearing is that your indecision to go now rests on my shoulders and that it is my fault the indicision was there in the first place

Friday January16,2009 [15:13PM] me: why does this have to be so complicated? why can't you just take me in your arms, tell me you love me and need me to go? 

Friday January16,2009 [15:14PM] Hubby: what i am doing is trying to understand the need for all the drama.

Friday January16,2009 [15:14PM] me: hugs are drama? 
Friday January16,2009 [15:14PM] me: telling me you love me and want me is drama? 

Friday January16,2009 [15:14PM] Hubby: yes that is excatly what i mean, hugs are drama.

Friday January16,2009 [15:15PM] me: ok... but you asked for one just this morning. 
Friday January16,2009 [15:15PM] me: and i gave it to you 
Friday January16,2009 [15:15PM] me: without all this ... 
Friday January16,2009 [15:15PM] me: why can't you just do the same? 

Friday January16,2009 [15:30PM] Hubby: weather you go tonight us up to you it is YOUR decision please do not ask me to make it for you.

Friday January16,2009 [15:30PM] me: yeah. i just thought of the idea, paid for the tickets and asked the man who was supposed to love me to put his arms around me and tell me he wanted me to go. what was i thinking!!! silly me. 

Friday January16,2009 [15:35PM] Hubby: once again laying the mess of YOUR drama at my feet and saying "clean this up."

Friday January16,2009 [15:46PM] me: this is exactly why i never want to tell you what i'm feeling. you act like you care, then when i tell you, you almost always get angry at me for telling you. or for having feelings at all. 

Friday January16,2009 [15:48PM] me: when i tell you i need you, what do you do? like today? like now? 

Friday January16,2009 [15:48PM] Hubby: ah but it does come with a heafty price

Friday January16,2009 [15:48PM] me: you think that hugging me is so bad? has a hefty price?

Friday January16,2009 [15:52PM] Hubby: or you could have not created all this drama in the first place, you could have accepted that i wanted to go out with you and have fun with you, instead of "you could have / should have".

Friday January16,2009 [15:57PM] Hubby: .don't give me a you could end this, you could have never started it.

Friday January16,2009 [15:58PM] me: you are right. i never should have told you what i was really feeling. 

Friday January16,2009 [15:59PM] me: don't worry about it 
Friday January16,2009 [15:59PM] me: i know it's my decision not to go 
Friday January16,2009 [15:59PM] me: i just wanted a hug  
Friday January16,2009 [16:02PM] me: You asked me why I didn't want to go. I told you. I wasn't forcing that info on you. You ASKED, remember? I was quite happy to stay home.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

No, I don't expect anyone to read all that 

What it does show me, is that he thinks he's being nice by giving me one hug per day. If I tell him I need some reassurance he makes me feel like a heel. 

Calls it "drama" if I need to be reassured or hugged or treated like anything other than dirt. 

After this - I simply left and went about my business. He waited till his friends showed up to go to the play, then guess what he did?

In FRONT of his FRIENDS, he made a BIG SHOW about hugging me and telling me he wanted me to go. That it was IMPORTANT to him etc. But he had to wait the four hours till they got there to do it. 

WHY??? why put me thru all that if he was going to do it anyway?


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Then yesterday he told me to assume we are married, told me to pick a date for the ceremony. talked about 'just showing up' etc.

Let me think for eight hours we were going to get married. Then told me he wasn't 'serious' about it and I was stupid to think he was.

Really nice guy. He said he can't tell me his 'highest truth' and wants a mutual friend to mediate. I said, a divorce mediation? To help us break up? He said 'no. not a break up.' Yeah right.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Today he's gone off with 'friends' helping them 'move'. 

Don't expect him back to be helping clean or cook or take care of the kids. something else he's dumped me with.

Fun fun.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

well snix, i read your conversation. I think you both play a lot of games. IMO your dialogue to him is very manipulative and defensive. In that conversation I did not read that he was unwilling to give you what you wanted. What i read was he wanted to go out and have a good time with you. From what he said, i interpreted that he thought he was doing a good thing, but he felt completely shot down. He is tired of always failing your expectations, and he is tired of the emotional head games. From that one conversation, his frustrations seemed legitimate. 

I realize that you are/were very hurt b/c all you wanted was for him to give you a hug and tell you he needs you and loves you. He did seem unwilling to do that. I would suggest you only have conversations like that face to face. I know its easier long distance b/c you arent so vulnerable, but it causes a lot of other problems. It seems like you are trying to force a very deep intimate level with someone you actually hate. Intimacy like the kind you are asking form him comes only when both partners feel loved and appreciated. He obviously does not. and neither do you. Your request was unreasonable b/c of both of your current emotional states. You two arent even friends at this point.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

I did try having that conversation face to face. Several times that week. He said only 'i don't want to talk about it' then turned and walked away.

Long distance?? He was exactly 8 feet from me in the same room on his computer!!! It's what he does. ignores me all day, even tho we work in the same damn room together and type things to me like he's across town. If i say can't we talk about this in person? he says 'no'. and leaves it at that. 

The ONLY reason i even had the chat with him was because HE insisted on it. If you see at the first of the conversation, I was only talking about who he was going to take. I had already resigned to not going. 

I had told him, four times that week that he needed to show me he wanted me to go. He never did. all he would say was 'go if you want to' that's ALL he ever said about it. 

In the conversation he says he 'told me several times that week he wanted me to go' but is "i don't care what you do, go if you want to" him saying 'i want you to go?"

that doesn't make any sense to me. 

He would tell me - just tell me what you want me to do. I would try to tell him. he would say, no type it. So I did. then he would shoot me down for it. over and over.

I guess I should have put more info into the explination. Yes, it does look like he's the poor put upon guy, just trying and getting shut down. But guys, he was in the SAME ROOM with me. He had NEVER said that week he wanted me to go. I finally realized he didn't want to and said i would wait for some time i got a clear signal from him he wanted me. 

Then he asked me to type to him so i did. And still i gave him chances after chances after chances. never once would he say he wanted me to go or he considered it a romantic time. not once.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

oh i did not realize you were in the same room. 

no, he never did say he thought it was a romantic evening. just something 'fun'. 

i think what you want from him is just not going to happen right now. there is so much animosity and resentment between you two.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

I think you are right. I didn't actually expect him to do it. But I felt obligated to tell him the truth. He asked what I wanted, I told him. 

And then after hours of the same BS you saw on chat - he finally waits till his friends get there, thirty minutes before we had to leave, and took me in his arms (in front of them) looked me deep and lovingly in my eyes and told me he really wanted me to go. Just like I asked him to days before. 

Then a few minutes later he did it again. So I kept my part of the promise and went. He was fine while we were out. Treated me like a friend or a casual date. 

Talk about drama. Why wait till the very end to do that? Why wait at all if he was just going to do it anyway? He complains that I play head games and cause drama, but he pulls all this then waits till the MOST dramatic moment to actually do it. 

I just don't get it.

Now he's asked his best friends wife to 'mediate' between us. She is a therapist and he thinks she will give him a 'fair shake' not like our other marriage counselor that only told him he was being an ass (paraphrased by hubby - he never actually came out and said it) and needed to stop treating me badly after six months of therapy. 

I have no idea what he expects to accomplish tomorrow. She and I are fairly close, and she saw how he treated me at Christmas and was pretty angry with him for it. 

This should be interesting. But if he wants out, he can have it with my blessing. But i'm no longer going to put up with his games. Either you love me or you don't. Make up your mind. Either you want us to be a couple or you don't. make up your mind. 

Either way is fine. This limbo is NOT.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

did you actually feel loved when he took you in his arms? I bet you were so confused. what do you think about him actually doing what you asked? you think he was just playing a game with you?


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes, I felt he was serious. Yes I felt he was 'allowing himself' to be genuine. This is why I feel he's been playing this weird game with me.

We are about to leave to drive north 80 miles for a mediation. will post how it goes. wish me luck. 

Last night he was kind and nice but not romantic or close - his usual way of being these days. This morning I initiated the morning hug but he seemed genuinely happy to get it. who knows what that man is thinking... hopefully i will today 

Later ...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

What a guy!

However, I read that through, hard as it was...

Is it possible you could be more direct? Just say "hug me"? It does come over that your communication with each other is terrible. You also have a complicated view of x means y if z and q are present... OK, not complicated to me, but perhaps to him.

He appears to deliberately misunderstand you. But you never know, it could be partly genuine.

Yeah, try being more direct?


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

snix11 said:


> Last night he was kind and nice but not romantic or close - his usual way of being these days. This morning I initiated the morning hug but he seemed genuinely happy to get it. who knows what that man is thinking... hopefully i will today


well i think its hard but you have to focus on the little progress that you made. 'kind' and 'nice' probably isnt exactly what you are going for, but if he consistently feels appreciated for what he is doing, then things might slowly get to 'romantic' and 'close.'


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## brad (Jul 31, 2008)

It's ironic you call this thread "zen" when it's anything but. YOur hubby may be doing you wrong and from your perspective sounds very inconsiderate. But you sure like dwelling in this negative space. You need to start being positive for your sake. You sound like an incredible drag to be around.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Oh gosh Brad... I'm such a drag ... lol

Well, honestly i'm mostly fun loving, love everybody kind of girl. But ignore me and neglect me for a YEAR.... yeah, i get a little cranky. But maybe your wife loves that sort of treatment and would be happy and perky anyway. That's just not me.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Update from the girl in Drag... *grin*

Monday met with the Friend, marriage counselor person. 
He agreed we were married. could not define what that meant. Didn't recall any vows. Said marriage isn't forever. That's as far as he would go with that topic.

I was right (surprise surprise) he's harboring quite a bit of anger and resentment towards me. He's being passive agressive and using neglect and abuse as punishment when I don't agree with him. 

I got across that I wouldn't blow up so much or get upset if he didn't treat me like dirt. He told the MC he would be kind and nice to me, embrace often etc.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Tuesday - Ignored again. Didn't work, watched movies, played with the kids. I was understandably upset - not to mention left with picking up his mess.

Wed - Finally had a talk with him. He agreed to several things. I was shocked.
My suggestions/wants are in Pink, his in black:

Long loving hugs – 10 per day
Morning hug – 15 seconds
Playful touches – 2 per day
Conversation – 30 mins per day
Admiration/compliments 10 per day
Sexual Fulfillment – 2x per week
Play games – chess or ?
930-11 personal time 5-7 x per week

Color me surprised when he suggested sex 2x a week! We'll see if he keeps his promise. I'm starting a new thread, as this doesn't appear to be a separation any more. May come back to it if he breaks his promise.


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