# Men Read This!!!



## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

This article is so good!!! It does a great job of explaining the differences between men and women regarding intimacy.

Straight Talk About Intimacy – Part I | Carol Drury, PhD


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

I think we all need to be reminded of this. 

I also think for every man on this site that says "i do all the right things, help aroud the house, romance...many times it is transparent. I am sure it is true with me. 

ON the flip side some men get so frustrated we are like "ok so i have been listening for the past 5 years doing all the right things and still nada....WTF goes both ways.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

But if I said that women have to be treated in a special way because they can't ever be expected to experience life outside their own view of themselves like little crystal princesses you'd find that patronizing. With all these articles there's an undertone of men are stupid women rule the challenge is to get men to be more like women and everything's going to work out fine.

If I suggested though that half the problem is women need to get over themselves and their mystique of sexuality that's so vague and complex the table of contents of the instruction manual alone is a million pages I'd be called out as a Neanderthal. Which is kind of unfair. You demand we treat you waaay waay up there on a pedestal and then you resent us for infantilizing you.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> But if I said that women have to be treated in a special way because they can't ever be expected to experience life outside their own view of themselves like little crystal princesses you'd find that patronizing. With all these articles there's an undertone of men are stupid women rule the challenge is to get men to be more like women and everything's going to work out fine.



I really don't see how you get the impression that the article has an undertone that men are stupid. It is merely pointing out the differences between men and women regarding sex and how we are wired differently. We can ignore it but what does that accomplish?


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I just don't see articles of this genre as all that useful. The real problem in most sexless marriages is not that the sexless partner (whether male or female) spells sex T A L K, but that they simply don't spell it at all. They see sex as a completely unnecessary hassle. Any significant change in your behaviour will just as likely be viewed as manipulation simply to get sex.

I also note the lack of advice to women saying that if your husband is uncommunicative and won't really talk to you, the remedy is to become a sexual dynamo. I would agree that this advice would be equally valid and thus just as untrue.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

romantic_guy said:


> I really don't see how you get the impression that the article has an undertone that men are stupid. It is merely pointing out the differences between men and women regarding sex and how we are wired differently. We can ignore it but what does that accomplish?


These sorts of things never acknowledge it's a two way street. It's like my colleague likes to say "We can compromise all you like as long as you do it my way..."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Runs,
When you describe your marital interactions I cringe. 

When I think of my marriage I really believe that:
- My W taught me to prioritize emotional intimacy
- My W learned how to prioritize sexual intimacy





Runs like Dog said:


> But if I said that women have to be treated in a special way because they can't ever be expected to experience life outside their own view of themselves like little crystal princesses you'd find that patronizing. With all these articles there's an undertone of men are stupid women rule the challenge is to get men to be more like women and everything's going to work out fine.
> 
> If I suggested though that half the problem is women need to get over themselves and their mystique of sexuality that's so vague and complex the table of contents of the instruction manual alone is a million pages I'd be called out as a Neanderthal. Which is kind of unfair. You demand we treat you waaay waay up there on a pedestal and then you resent us for infantilizing you.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Runs,
> When you describe your marital interactions I cringe.
> 
> When I think of my marriage I really believe that:
> ...


That is EXACTLY what has happened in my marriage.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Lionelhutz said:


> I also note the lack of advice to women saying that if your husband is uncommunicative and won't really talk to you, the remedy is to become a sexual dynamo. I would agree that this advice would be equally valid and thus just as untrue.


That is the problem with blogs or advice columns that focus on one gender. They are virtually useless because while you'er reading it, your mind is shifting to well why is it men/women's fault.

Becoming a sexual dynamo won't solve the problem of an uncommunicative man. Sex does not solve marital problems.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> But if I said that women have to be treated in a special way because they can't ever be expected to experience life outside their own view of themselves like little crystal princesses you'd find that patronizing. With all these articles there's an undertone of men are stupid women rule the challenge is to get men to be more like women and everything's going to work out fine.
> 
> If I suggested though that half the problem is women need to get over themselves and their mystique of sexuality that's so vague and complex the table of contents of the instruction manual alone is a million pages I'd be called out as a Neanderthal. Which is kind of unfair. You demand we treat you waaay waay up there on a pedestal and then you resent us for infantilizing you.


Your wisdom is deep. 

Your delivery is a mystery.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

The article is good... but ever sitution is different.

Moreso when one partner has in essense started the sexlessness.

In my case we are two years plus into our "recovery" I have done all of the T A L K concepts. In general I think they are valid... my wife and I seem to be growing emotionally closer.

However my needs are still nowhere near met.... everything right now is on hold until she recovers from an injury. It'll be interesting to see where we are after she recovers. She has received a lot of support from me over the past few months. 

I'm at the point I just accept it as is and I stopped bringing it up. She knows if she cant feel love again she needs to divorce me. I'm done with limbo.

I hope it all pays off in the long run. We'll see.

The biggest issue is in timing of the syncing back as a couple. It feels to me like I'm doing all the heavy lifting and have been doing it for a long time in our realationship. I understand it likely too a long time for her to build whatever wall she built. I see two years of effort as enogh yet she obviously doesn't.

That's the main issue..timing.

It'd be nice if the results were faster and more predictable. Its almost like you have to just keep on going no matter what. When she finally breaks that wall down who knows.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

This article is crap!

For women SEX = T-A-L-K

Really? I would love to have an in depth conversation with my wife. Wait a minute we do have in depth conversations ........ about her work and friends when I can pull her away from "America's Next Top Model and Project Runway". I cannot remember the last thing she asked me about anything in my life. My best friend recently died in a very tragic way. I had to travel across the country to his funeral and spent some meaningful time with his wife and kids. Isn't this something that you would have a conversation about with your wife? Not at my house. 

Can my wife remember the last time I gave her flowers? Not sure but I remember the last time I got her a nice jade necklace and she looked and me in an irritated way and said "why did you do this"? Or wait what about the time I got her new dining room set as a surprise and she was furious for me getting the "wrong one' of the two we had narrowed "our" choice down to. Of course the other set was quite unique but extremely small not having enough room for our family or any guests should we ever entertain.

No Dr. Drury has it correct "Women have a need to talk and emotionally connect" unfortunately for years now my wife gets her emotional fulfillment from her female friends and co - workers. She can go on a 90 minute walk with one of these friends but the couple of times I begged her to walk with me (I refuse to beg or ask any longer because I can only take so many forms of rejection) I cannot pry a word out of her. She actually seems to be uncomfortable with me.

Last night after she came home from work and I was laying on the bed with her while she was winding down. We of course talked about what happened that day and the "drama" that was unfolding. About 45 minutes into it she starts to cuddle and I was rubbing her back while she talked. After about 15 minutes I started to touch her a bit more sensually. She pushed my hand away and continued to talk. After she was done with her story she said she had work to do. I said "it was nice to catch up but you know I pretty much feel like one of your really good friends". She got her back up and said what are you talking about and I said I mentioned her pushing my hand away when I had become a bit more amorous. She said she had no clue what I was talking about. Well my friends this is about par for the course. I let her know I better get our of her way so she could work. 

I did go by the room about four more times that night and I know she got caught up on her favorite shows and then got to wind down with her trashy who done it mystery. Pretty much standard fare at my house nightly.

Sorry for the tirade but for me Dr. Drury's article has no application in my life except to annoy me.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

*sigh* I want to be a princess.

And eat cake.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

RC,
Regarding what you do for your W you are equating "effort" with results. I would never buy my W anything expensive that couldn't be easily returned because her comfort zone is narrow and my "success" rate is less than 50 percent. 

As for why she doesn't want to "walk" with you I would ask myself a different question. Why doesn't my W like to "talk" to me because walking together without anyone else around really "is" talking/being together. This could be a matter of her liking different topics than you do, or her finding you too serious, not upbeat/fun, etc. Not saying you ARE any of those things, but it is a big red flag when your W doesn't want to walk with you. 

Regarding what she "doesn't do" for you - she has totally deprioritized you and somehow you have allowed her to get comfortable with that. 

Perhaps a different tack - when she pushes your hand away you respond with - "if you are too tired for sex, would you be willing to give me a back rub, I miss your touch". My guess is she is going to reject that request as well or at best give you a 5 minute/low effort rub down. 

I have no idea what your day to day dynamic is, but one or more things seem very broken. 





RClawson said:


> This article is crap!
> 
> For women SEX = T-A-L-K
> 
> ...


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> RC,
> Regarding what you do for your W you are equating "effort" with results. I would never buy my W anything expensive that couldn't be easily returned because her comfort zone is narrow and my "success" rate is less than 50 percent.
> 
> *I certainly never showered my wife with endless gifts and flowers. This was for something incredible she had done at work. Both of these instances were out of left field. *
> ...


*Amen! Thanks for your insights.*


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

RC,
My results are primarily a result of:
- Marrying a great person AND
- Looking for patterns (both destructive and constructive) and developing conscious proactive strategies for them. I avoid or have coping mechanisms for the bad patterns and I emphasize and amplify the constructive. 
- Finding ways to make it easy for her to show me that "I" am important to HER. So a sexual rejection doesn't turn into me rubbing her foot, instead she is rubbing my back. Or alternatively promising to take me to the rapture tomorrow night. 

But the foundation for all of this is: I am really good at her. I know what interactions are fun and positive for her/us. Simple stuff like inviting her to play racquet sports with me. And asking her to play a board game she really likes. 

When she is angry/tense about her day, I listen, empathize and at the END, ask if there is anything I can do. I don't try to problem solve for her nor do I radiate disinterest in what she is saying. Even better - I do NOT try to accelerate her path through the bad mood to become happy because her unhappiness is making me anxious. 





RClawson said:


> *Amen! Thanks for your insights.*


RC,
Regarding what you do for your W you are equating "effort" with results. I would never buy my W anything expensive that couldn't be easily returned because her comfort zone is narrow and my "success" rate is less than 50 percent. 

I certainly never showered my wife with endless gifts and flowers. This was for something incredible she had done at work. Both of these instances were out of left field. 

As for why she doesn't want to "walk" with you I would ask myself a different question. Why doesn't my W like to "talk" to me because walking together without anyone else around really "is" talking/being together. This could be a matter of her liking different topics than you do, or her finding you too serious, not upbeat/fun, etc. Not saying you ARE any of those things, but it is a big red flag when your W doesn't want to walk with you. 

Yes MEM it is a huge RED FLAG 

Regarding what she "doesn't do" for you - she has totally deprioritized you and somehow you have allowed her to get comfortable with that. 

Right again!

Perhaps a different tack - when she pushes your hand away you respond with - "if you are too tired for sex, would you be willing to give me a back rub, I miss your touch". My guess is she is going to reject that request as well or at best give you a 5 minute/low effort rub down. 

I do offer the foot rub often and she always accepts. I love touching her.

I have no idea what your day to day dynamic is, but one or more things seem very broken. 

Amen! Thanks for your insights.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

that_girl said:


> *sigh* I want to be a princess.
> 
> And eat cake.


You are a princess, didn't you know that? :scratchhead:


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> You are a princess, didn't you know that? :scratchhead:


Trouble is, it's a bit like Germany before the Thirty Years War: when every ****** is a prince or a princess, there's neither novelty nor value in being one.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Runs,
> When you describe your marital interactions I cringe.
> 
> When I think of my marriage I really believe that:
> ...


You were BOTH willing to learn. A lot of people do have the world view that RLD described in his colleague "We can compromise, but we'll do it my way".

That, and lots of people are perfectly happy to think about learning what the other wants to prioritize - once their own priorities are fully met, and have been for a nice, long while. But not to do anything mutually or up front as an earnest of good will.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

I recognize that there are some frustrations from some of the guys, and I know you don't have to listen to me on any of this since I'm not in your situation and can't claim to know what it's like for you. Reading the reactions, I think there may be a difference in how we approach this article, though.

First, I recognize there is very real discrimination against men everywhere from the job to opportunities in college, and that is frustrating. That frustrates me as well, as does when you call this out and read the laws that specifically prevent a certain action, but hear it interpreted by someone who stands to gain by taking such a contorted position to be able to defend the discrimination, and I know that if you take a position that you honestly see as fair, you can be defined as a "neanderthal" or misogynist. However; when I'm looking at this article, I'm not trying to fight for social justice, and I'm not trying to argue that point with the author. 

The author of the article can hang part of the alphabet after her name, so that lends credibility to some people. I won't minimize her accomplishment, but having a part of the alphabet after your name doesn't mean you suddenly know all there is to know on a subject. I recognize that as I read.

I can recognize that this is an article written by a woman about what women need or want. Anytime someone talks about women (or any other group) in collective terms, I know they are speaking in generalities. I do this as well, and have on this site, especially in the "long term success" forum. An obvious generality would be to say "Men are taller than women." Generally that's true, but that doesn't mean that every man is taller than every woman. When I read this article, I am expecting to get a woman's viewpoint (something I can't get from reading a man) talking about tendencies in women, and what she says is flavored by those tendencies in herself. Looking at it like this, I find such an article to be very insightful. I'm ready to put the emotions into neutral and read it just to get this insight.

Recognizing that my wife is an individual, and not just a generality, when I learn from such an article, I need to take what I think I learned through one last stage of validation: I need to ask my wife what she thinks about it. She'll tell me, and in telling me, she tells me if the generality applies to her as an individual, and if it does, to what degree. 

Talking to my wife like this has some additional benefits: She knows I'm reading things like this, and has a chance to ask me why. When I tell her why, she recognizes that she is important to me, and I'm really trying to learn so I can be better with her. She reciprocates well with this. She also has curiosity about what other women's opinions are, or in the case of this site, she also is curious how other people are in their sex lives - I think this helps her establish in her mind that we're pretty normal. Sometimes she'll actually ask me a question to see what I've read, or to ask me to find out what I can on it. So just discussing with her the fact that I like to read someplace like TAM or an article like this is beneficial to us. 

Our partnership isn't defined the same way I define social justice in the workplace, and a lot of times I want to do something for her just out of friendship, or just because I like to do something nice for her, and I find that those things turn out to be pleasant for me as well. I don't mind treating her like a princess, and I don't keep score to make sure she pays me back and stays even (Not a jab at those of you who do not have your needs met - that would be very frustrating.) I think reading articles like this with the understanding of what they are and where they come from gives me ideas that do apply to my wife, and the discussion about what I've read directly with my wife also helps each of us open up our understanding of what motivates the other. My wife is always very willing to reciprocate. Her reciprocation is not always sex, but it is always nice. Honestly, yes, often it is in a sexual form, and you can probably guess that I'm very satisfied as I write this, so write me off on that point if you feel that makes it inapplicable to you. Often, my wife does as I do and does initiates things with me just out of friendship or because she wants to do something nice for me. It just works out.

So thanks for posting the article. And thank you to the ladies who help me understand. I do understand the social frustration expressed in some of the posts ... I'm just not here to fight that particular battle.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Several have stated that this is written by a woman for women implying that this diminishes the truth of this article. I have read the same principle in several books that were written by men. This woman author also writes about what men need. Here is an example:

Blog | Carol Drury, PhD


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

My only comment on the article is that for SOME women T-A-L-K is to them like S-E-X is to a man. The point is to find what IT is that is the emotional candy for your spouse - whether it be talk, whether it be sex, whether it be gifts, whether it be time spent together, etc. It plays right in to that 'love language' thing we always talk about on here. 

And as one of MEM's posts pointed out, it works much better when EACH of you find out what that 'candy' craving is of the other (must have Valentine's Day and candy on the brain - sorry) and you each give freely of it to the other.

Best wishes.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I just don't see that many chronic cases of long term sexlessness fit easily into this kind of analysis. It's nothing like my situation. In recent years, there is definitely an emotional distance between my wife and I but that is only after years and years of sexless. Our levels of communication and non-sexual affection were very high when she lost her interest and for a long time afterwards. I see many others in the same situation and I don't get the feeling from hearing the stories of higher drive women that as a group their husbands are necessarily extraordinary communicators or romantics.

The general popularity of this "organic" approach to marriage advice often means that couples with sex problems are told to reflect internally to find all the other problems that we know "must" exist. One of my least favourite nuggets is that "sex is a symptom" of something else. 

No problem in a marriage is isolated, but the mistake often becomes that "we need to fix everything before we can fix anything."


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I'm with RLD on this.

The article screamed "cliche" in the first paragraph.

I don't define intimacy as sex and I never met a woman who defined intimacy as talk.

I'll stick with reality, it's been working well this far
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

romantic_guy said:


> Several have stated that this is written by a woman for women implying that this diminishes the truth of this article. I have read the same principle in several books that were written by men. This woman author also writes about what men need. Here is an example:
> 
> Blog | Carol Drury, PhD


I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought her gender diminished the truth. I meant it to say it gives a different perspective, and I want to hear a different perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

shy_guy said:


> I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought her gender diminished the truth. I meant it to say it gives a different perspective, and I want to hear a different perspective.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was not in reference to your post, but thanks for the clarification. We all need to consider viewpoints from a different perspective. Years ago in counseling we were told that the vast majority of disagreements in marriage were simply differences of perspective or opinion. The problem comes when we want to make these issues matters of right and wrong. Maybe that is one reason my wife and I have not had an argument since last July.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

RClawson said:


> Last night after she came home from work and I was laying on the bed with her while she was winding down. We of course talked about what happened that day and the "drama" that was unfolding. About 45 minutes into it she starts to cuddle and I was rubbing her back while she talked. After about 15 minutes I started to touch her a bit more sensually. She pushed my hand away and continued to talk. After she was done with her story she said she had work to do. I said "it was nice to catch up but you know I pretty much feel like one of your really good friends". She got her back up and said what are you talking about and I said I mentioned her pushing my hand away when I had become a bit more amorous. She said she had no clue what I was talking about. Well my friends this is about par for the course. I let her know I better get our of her way so she could work.


In view of this (and your description of your relationship), why did you snuggle with her at all? It seems like you are there to meet some of her needs (some physical touch) without any concern over meeting yours. So why are you doing this for her? You words are saying one thing but your actions seem to be saying something else.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> In view of this (and your description of your relationship), why did you snuggle with her at all? It seems like you are there to meet some of her needs (some physical touch) without any concern over meeting yours. So why are you doing this for her? You words are saying one thing but your actions seem to be saying something else.


Well Tall AG because I do love her and I do want to be close to her more than just Saturday mornings at 8:45AM. It is not enough so I look for windows when we can be emotionally intimate (it is not all about the sex) but usually I walk away frustrated.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

RClawson said:


> Well Tall AG because I do love her and I do want to be close to her more than just Saturday mornings at 8:45AM. It is not enough so I look for windows when we can be emotionally intimate (it is not all about the sex) but usually I walk away frustrated.


Understood. But if all you get is frustrated, why do it? If she is not making an effort, why are you doing all the work?

There is a priniciple discussed around here called Turning down the thermostat. Some benefits include:

1) Stopping yourself from smoothering her. Giving her some space without you on her all the time.
2) Giving her a chance to do some of the work in connecting. If you do all of the laundry, for example, she is going to stop even thinking about doing it, becuase why shoud she, you have it covered. Working on the marriage can be the same way.
3) It helps you avoid frustration and resentment. You don't get turned down or hurt, so there is less resentment.

Of course, when she notices (hoepfully), you need to explain that you don't feel your needs are being met, so you have decided to focus on bit on yourself. She will react, and hoepfully change her mind about working with you. If she does not, that will tell you something as well.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

I can't read these kinds of articles anymore. After doing a ton of work, and trying to crack the code, at this point I'm waving a white flag. 

My wife is great - she's trying really hard, and does a lot of things to make my life easier. I've concluded I can't make her desire me. We can T A L K, I can clean and do laundry and care for kids until I'm exhausted and it won't make any difference. Neither can she make herself feel desire. All Atholks tricks, or MEM's tricks maybe work for a better man than me, but I've hit my wall. I am the best man I'm going to be and I'm okay with that. And if I can't stoke her fires, than that's just life. 

These kinds of articles just make me feel inadequate and false hope that this is somehow solvable.


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## cloudwithleggs (Oct 13, 2011)

I am female and i *often spell intimacy S-E-X* :scratchhead:


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

cloudwithleggs said:


> I am female and i *often spell intimacy S-E-X* :scratchhead:


Just curious, if you had a husband who never paid attention to you except for sex would you still fell that way? That is not a smart ass question, I really want to know. (By the way...I checked out your profile and I am also INFP.)


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

seeking sanity said:


> I can't read these kinds of articles anymore. After doing a ton of work, and trying to crack the code, at this point I'm waving a white flag.
> 
> My wife is great - she's trying really hard, and does a lot of things to make my life easier. I've concluded I can't make her desire me. We can T A L K, I can clean and do laundry and care for kids until I'm exhausted and it won't make any difference. Neither can she make herself feel desire. All Atholks tricks, or MEM's tricks maybe work for a better man than me, but I've hit my wall. I am the best man I'm going to be and I'm okay with that. And if I can't stoke her fires, than that's just life.
> 
> These kinds of articles just make me feel inadequate and false hope that this is somehow solvable.



Amen Brother.


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