# More about female sexual desire in LTRs



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

The last thread started veering off topic and died out and I just found a new book on the topic, so....

https://www.amazon.com/Untrue-Every...b44c297ffd610680c35d99173c6ca3&language=en_US

"Blending accessible social science and interviews with sex researchers, anthropologists, and real women from all walks of life, Untrue challenges our deepest assumptions about ourselves, monogamy, and the women we think we know. From recent data suggesting women may struggle more than men with sexual exclusivity to the revolutionary idea that females of many species evolved to be "promiscuous" to Martin's trenchant assertion that female sexual autonomy is the ultimate metric of gender equality, Untrue will change the way you think about women and sex forever"

One customer review: "The research that Martin describes is validating of many of my own and my friend’s experiences, some paradoxical: high desire, loss of libido in committed relationships, loss of libido after having children, wanting sexual freedom despite being in happy marriages, and experiencing firsthand the intimate connection between autonomy and desire. "

So it looks like, if this is true, it's "Yay! female sexual equality". 

But, if it's the case that, as a rule, women "lose their libido in committed relationships", "lose their libido after having children", "want sexual freedom despite being in happy marriages", etc. 

What possible reason could there be for men who value sex to enter into committed relationships with women?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Maybe there isn’t one. There are a lot of reasons women do not want that either. But the world has been busy telling us that’s all we want for a few millenium.

IMO, it’s not a huge tragedy to just have people be more able to move out of LTR’s than stay in them unhappy.

And yeah sorry but if she’s not happy.....


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> What possible reason could there be for men who value sex to enter into committed relationships with women?


There is no reason for anyone to enter into a committed relationship if all they are looking for is sex. But there is more to a committed relationship than "just sex". 

I would also venture guess that those who believe the 20/80 rule, and fall into the lower 80% category, may think that some sex is better than none. But this is all conjecture on my part.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> The last thread started veering off topic and died out and I just found a new book on the topic, so....
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Untrue-Every...b44c297ffd610680c35d99173c6ca3&language=en_US
> 
> ...


Yay, poly! Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Um. Don't know. What WOULD be the reason?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm currently reading that book. I think the author is dizzy but there are usually some interesting facts gleaned.

I have never had problems attracting or keeping mates short or long term.

I mostly study because it is interesting but I also would like to be able to quantify or explain why it has seemed very easy or natural in my case.

My friends all had more struggles.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

** sigh **

I wish people would spend more time and effort on communicating/understanding their particular SO on this subject rather than coming up with one-size-fits-all theories about women (or men).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I'm currently reading that book. I think the author is dizzy but there are usually some interesting facts gleaned.
> 
> I have never had problems attracting or keeping mates short or long term.
> 
> ...


Because you’re in the 20%.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Because you’re in the 20%.


You are sooooo bad but I forgive you because you make me laugh during your badness!>


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Because you’re in the 20%.
> ...


Yes I am bad, but also at the same time, you are the guy the red pill and other dudes on that vein describe as the natural.

The natural is cluelessly unaware of why all the wimminz want him. And they shall never ask a natural for advice because the natural doesn’t know how he’s doing it.

You are kinda proving their point.

Except I could easily tell you how you’re doing it.

And what I say may sound very similar to what the red drug clan says.

But the nuanced differences are the thing.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes I am bad, but also at the same time, you are the guy the red pill and other dudes on that vein describe as the natural.
> 
> The natural is cluelessly unaware of why all the wimminz want him. And they shall never ask a natural for advice because the natural doesn’t know how he’s doing it.
> 
> ...


See, the thing is, I believe I know quite a bit but it can easily be written off as anecdotal or that I'm a hanging Chad, Tyrone if I was black, alpha 20 percenter.

So I research and study. You are very close to my sentiments with your use of the term "nuanced".


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> ** sigh **
> 
> I wish people would spend more time and effort on communicating/understanding their particular SO on this subject rather than coming up with one-size-fits-all theories about women (or men).


I believe this is one vital component of continued sexual attraction from women towards their men and it is also a huge obstacle in many circumstance.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

@Buddy400

Do we need to stick to the particular book you referenced or can we go where we want to on this one without jacking your thread?

I will stick to the book if needed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> The last thread started veering off topic and died out and I just found a new book on the topic, so....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




None. But I don’t think that’s what happens most of the time. It probably does happen quite a significant proportion but not the majority.
Maybe this will keep men bit more on their toes? Which can’t be a bad thing.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I mostly study because it is interesting but I also would like to be able to quantify or explain why it has seemed very easy or natural in my case.



I know I know!
(Because of your very broad shoulders and being humble about it...)



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Red Sonja said:


> ** sigh **
> 
> 
> 
> I wish people would spend more time and effort on communicating/understanding their particular SO on this subject rather than coming up with one-size-fits-all theories about women (or men).



My size definitely fits all women  My mother told me, I know it’s true!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> There is no reason for anyone to enter into a committed relationship if all they are looking for is sex. But there is more to a committed relationship than "just sex".


These would be men who value sex, not men who only enter committed relationships for sex,



Lila said:


> I would also venture guess that those who believe the 20/80 rule, and fall into the lower 80% category, may think that some sex is better than none. But this is all conjecture on my part.


This would apply to the 80/20 rule as well. You'll get some decent sex for a short time, then that will fall off and you'll start having even less.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yay, poly! Sorry, couldn't help myself.
> 
> Um. Don't know. What WOULD be the reason?


As far as I can see, there isn't one.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> @Buddy400
> 
> Do we need to stick to the particular book you referenced or can we go where we want to on this one without jacking your thread?
> 
> I will stick to the book if needed.


Feel free to take it where it needs to go


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> None. But I don’t think that’s what happens most of the time. It probably does happen quite a significant proportion but not the majority.
> *Maybe this will keep men bit more on their toes? Which can’t be a bad thing.*


Agreed on the bold


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

Does it really matter when there's nothing for men to gain from modern day marriage in the first place?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

What would a man want from marriage ever? What is lacking now? Just sex? Do you think that has changed?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> These would be men who value sex, not men who only enter committed relationships for sex,





> This would apply to the 80/20 rule as well. You'll get some decent sex for a short time, then that will fall off and you'll start having even less.


If the book is correct, and if the man values sex as the MOST important thing to a committed relationship, and he's part of the top 20%, then no, there is no reason to enter or stay in a committed relationship. 

As to your second point, I think the bigger question on the 80/20 rule is would a man choose to never (or rarely) have sex as a single person or enjoy some sex, possibly for a limited time, in a committed relationship?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Lila said:


> As to your second point, I think the bigger question on the 80/20 rule is would a man choose to never (or rarely) have sex as a single person or enjoy some sex, possibly for a limited time, in a committed relationship?




There are also the options of having 'many' sex as a single person. Or no sex in a committed relationship...

Who came up with the 80/20 non sense? It's surely a sliding scale. It's not like you are in the top 21% and have no sex but then go and work out or change something about yourself, enter the 20% and suddenly all this  is raining down on you?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > As to your second point, I think the bigger question on the 80/20 rule is would a man choose to never (or rarely) have sex as a single person or enjoy some sex, possibly for a limited time, in a committed relationship?
> ...


Let's avoid a threadjack. I didn't come up with argument but it is an argument some use for monogamy marriage/commitment. 

Back on topic....do you think there are reasons for why a man would choose commitment if the book is true?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Lila said:


> Let's avoid a threadjack. I didn't come up with argument but it is an argument some use for monogamy marriage/commitment.
> 
> Back on topic....do you think there are reasons for why a man would choose commitment if the book is true?



No. But the book isn’t true. At least, it applies perhaps some of the time, but not a lot of the time. Also things are significantly more complex than that. It’s like looking at crime statistics and concluding that there’s no point in talking to any black person because they will nick your wallet. People are notoriously bad at interpreting statistics.

Also, there’s that little thing called drive to procreate & build a family together. Maybe for some, the rewards outweigh the risks.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> Let's avoid a threadjack. I didn't come up with argument but it is an argument some use for monogamy marriage/commitment.
> 
> Back on topic....do you think there are reasons for why a man would choose commitment if the book is true?


It is interesting how the introduction of new information affects people. There are soooo many ways to process information. My husband read it and was like, yah, so? One other thing to know as we build our relationship. Certainly did not make him want to give up and decide ... well **** life's over. Guess I will just throw away all the good that comes from ltr.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

What ACTUALLY happens is that relationships get strained over time, they accumulate baggage which increases the risk of a partner straying or just getting fed up. ****ing decreases as a result or stops completely.
It’s not the other way around.
It’s putting cart before the horse. Anyone with common sense understands that that’s what happens.

Guys in a bar experience more nosebleeds than women; because they get punched in the face more often. Not because there is some natural ‘predisposition’ to nose bleeds that only applies to guys. Though if you ran a statistic for that, you could conclude the latter. If you didn’t use your brains.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Yah. I will take a highly inexperienced dude over studies any day.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yah. I will take a highly inexperienced dude over studies any day.



‘Inexperienced’ in what exactly?

I didn’t say the study is wrong, I said the interpretations are simplistic and mostly non sensical. But people will take whatever suits them from the study.

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> Back on topic....do you think there are reasons for why a man would choose commitment if the book is true?


Depends on what is true. One of the possible assumptions as per Buddy's original post is:



> wanting sexual freedom despite being in happy marriages


I don't necessarily buy this (not saying it isn't a factor for some), and believe it has just as much to do with needs not being met. The marriage could be happy per se, but that doesn't always equate to having sexual needs met. If someone in a LTR wants sexual freedom, then either they should not be in that relationship (or look more towards non monogamous relationships) or odds are their needs are not being met. Why their needs aren't being met, could be a plethora of reasons. 

Funny enough, my W and I were having a discussion on this exact topic last night. When I have a few minutes, I will post about.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Lila said:


> If the book is correct, and if the man values sex as the MOST important thing to a committed relationship, and he's part of the top 20%, then no, there is no reason to enter or stay in a committed relationship.
> 
> As to your second point, I think the bigger question on the 80/20 rule is would a man choose to never (or rarely) have sex as a single person or enjoy some sex, possibly for a limited time, in a committed relationship?


The biggest question is:

Why would a single young never married male choose to have limited or no sex as a single person?

Women are great fun to play with, always have been.

Sex, to enter a M, is but one part, a very, very important part, just one component. 

I married for great sex, as part of the entire package though. 

Women were readily available and I was eager to participate, but none were the right ones, until I met DW.

As a single male, I'd been having sex extraordinarily frequently (I realized later) for years, I kind of thought that was the normal thing.

It's still surprising it's not, I have to say. 

Why would a man enter a marriage today? 

Because, inmho, sex, although extremely impt, integral to a good M, isn't the only reward for teaming with a woman and assaulting "life's journey" with a teammate. 

Sex can be acquired anywhere. But a complete package is hard to find. 

On the flipside? Why would a woman stay in a M ?

Well, first, who wouldn't want to stay with me, on my journey? 😉😉

She may stay for the same reasons.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> The biggest question is:
> 
> Why would a single young never married male choose to have limited or no sex as a single person?
> 
> ...


Bingo. Must be the front row.

Orrrrrr one can struggle to fit into a view of sexuality that does not fit reality. And remain in a struggle for the remainder of their miserable lives.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > If the book is correct, and if the man values sex as the MOST important thing to a committed relationship, and he's part of the top 20%, then no, there is no reason to enter or stay in a committed relationship.
> ...


According to the argument, it is less a choice and more a matter of circumstance. Many single men can't fine women who'll have nsa sex with them. 



> Women are great fun to play with, always have been.
> 
> Sex, to enter a M, is but one part, a very, very important part, just one component.
> 
> ...


Totally agree.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > Let's avoid a threadjack. I didn't come up with argument but it is an argument some use for monogamy marriage/commitment.
> ...


We're human. We revert to what's comfortable and known. The unknown is scary.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Lila said:


> According to the argument, it is less a choice and more a matter of circumstance. Many single men can't fine women who'll have nsa sex with them.


That's more the mystery. 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around that. If a man isn't lazy, is trying to be all he can be (to paraphrase), and somewhat attentive to his surroundings, there are women.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Depends on what is true. One of the possible assumptions as per Buddy's original post is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes exactly. I also don’t understand what’s so ‘revolutionary’ about some women wanting or choosing to be promiscuous?

I sometimes wish my wife was a bit promiscuous but she isn’t so we all have to work with what we’ve got....


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> We're human. We revert to what's comfortable and known. The unknown is scary.


Absolutely. Those of us who chose to revert don't win the big prize. We just get mad/hurt/bitter that things did not go the way we wanted.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes I am bad, but also at the same time, you are the guy the red pill and other dudes on that vein describe as the natural.
> 
> The natural is cluelessly unaware of why all the wimminz want him. And they shall never ask a natural for advice because the natural doesn’t know how he’s doing it.
> 
> ...


Please share your take on this. I do not have a woman's insight. I am genuinely curious and I do believe I have gathered some good information from the male perspective enough to help more than one friend in this area. You will probably have knowledge from an angle I can't even see at.

So the red pill pushers might be close to a truth but missing a vital nuance?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> That's more the mystery.
> 
> I'm still trying to wrap my head around that. If a man isn't lazy, is trying to be all he can be (to paraphrase), and somewhat attentive to his surroundings, there are women.


I don't know @Ragnar Ragnasson. Given the choice of man for NSA sex, it's going to take more than "isn't lazy, trying to be all he can be, and somewhat attentive to surroundings" to get me to sleep with him. If it's only NSA, I'm going to shoot for the hottest guy I can wrangle with whom I have the most sexual chemistry.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > We're human. We revert to what's comfortable and known. The unknown is scary.
> ...


I can relate as I fall under the latter category.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Please share your take on this. I do not have a woman's insight. I am genuinely curious and I do believe I have gathered some good information from the male perspective enough to help more than one friend in this area. You will probably have knowledge from an angle I can't even see at.
> 
> So the red pill pushers might be close to a truth but missing a vital nuance?


Ever heard the truism that you find love when you are not expecting it? Looking for it? Why does that resonate so true while being so indescribable? Why has my husband never ever had trouble finding women? Women who want bootie calls. Women who want love and commitment. Women who want anything and everything in between? He reads the red pill stuff and shakes his head. He is not rich. He is not built like a power lifter. His hair is thinning. Right now is sort of sporting a belly. What makes me stand by him no matter what? I present him as Mr Perfect. Oh hells no he isn't. 

I mean be ones best self sounds trite. But it will help on every level of life as much as having its own rewards.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> What possible reason could there be for men who value sex to enter into committed relationships with women?


When it comes to research on LTR and sustaining libidos within a monogamous context... it is as if everyone is interested primarily in the problems and understanding what goes wrong. This stuff is exciting to read and tends to sell very well. 










Meanwhile you have perfectly happy monogamous couples that are enjoying astronomically better intimacy as the decades go by. Meh, that seems so boring...


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Ever heard the truism that you find love when you are not expecting it? Looking for it? Why does that resonate so true while being so indescribable? Why has my husband never ever had trouble finding women? Women who want bootie calls. Women who want love and commitment. Women who want anything and everything in between? He reads the red pill stuff and shakes his head. He is not rich. He is not built like a power lifter. His hair is thinning. Right now is sort of sporting a belly. What makes me stand by him no matter what? I present him as Mr Perfect. Oh hells no he isn't.
> 
> I mean be ones best self sounds trite. But it will help on every level of life as much as having its own rewards.


Is it possible that the poly community is just more open about sexuality than the monogamous community? And because there is more opportunity for sex and love in general, they don't have the same expectations for a partner as say someone looking for a monogamous relationship?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Hmm, I don't really know. The old 50% of people are below average may come in here. Its possible that there are a large number of men who are just not attractive to women. I'm not talking physical appearance, but about men who are not really able to get their lives together. 

Probably the same for women. Those groups though may not be interested in each other. 




Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> That's more the mystery.
> 
> I'm still trying to wrap my head around that. If a man isn't lazy, is trying to be all he can be (to paraphrase), and somewhat attentive to his surroundings, there are women.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> Is it possible that the poly community is just more open about sexuality than the monogamous community?


Not just possible but highly likely. I would say a fact, actually. 



> And because there is more opportunity for sex and love in general, they don't have the same expectations for a partner as say someone looking for a monogamous relationship?


Not the same. But if anything, MORE. More expectation of radical honesty, courage...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> When it comes to research on LTR and sustaining libidos within a monogamous context... it is as if everyone is interested primarily in the problems and understanding what goes wrong. This stuff is exciting to read and tends to sell very well.


Maybe their problem is focusing on the libido and the "drive" as it were. Comes as no surprise to anyone that I think that is the teeniest and likely least useful things to look at. I would also suggest that looking at what went wrong is going to be less useful than what goes right.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Ever heard the truism that you find love when you are not expecting it? Looking for it? Why does that resonate so true while being so indescribable? Why has my husband never ever had trouble finding women? Women who want bootie calls. Women who want love and commitment. Women who want anything and everything in between? He reads the red pill stuff and shakes his head. He is not rich. He is not built like a power lifter. His hair is thinning. Right now is sort of sporting a belly. What makes me stand by him no matter what? I present him as Mr Perfect. Oh hells no he isn't.
> 
> I mean be ones best self sounds trite. But it will help on every level of life as much as having its own rewards.


I will focus on the first part of your paragraph and the point it makes.

I have absolutely noticed as well as researched to back up my observation that women are attracted to men who have a life that doesn't really include hunting them. There are at least two points I believe to be critical as it relates to sexual and overall attraction.

1: Women are attracted to men who aren't really hunting them but have a life and real interests outside of dating.

2: Women love to hunt.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Maybe their problem is focusing on the libido and the "drive" as it were. Comes as no surprise to anyone that I think that is the teeniest and likely least useful things to look at.



Isn’t it precisely what this study in the book focusing at, ignoring pretty much everything else?
The only difference (and why it is selling) is that it is using buzz words such as ‘autonomy’.




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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I will focus on the first part of your paragraph and the point it makes.
> 
> I have absolutely noticed as well as researched to back up my observation that women are attracted to men who have a life that doesn't really include hunting them. There are at least two points I believe to be critical as it relates to sexual and overall attraction.
> 
> ...


I can only agree with number 1. I have actually never known anyone who hunted men. I certainly never have.


ETA: Very strong response from one person on OLD who basically had NO life outside of work. He wanted a life which he expected to start when he met someone to love who would tell him what that looked like. 

Just. No. (extreme example)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> 1: Women are attracted to men who aren't really hunting them but have a life and real interests outside of dating.


Depends who is ‘hunting’ them. If it’s a sexual predator or the hunchback of Notre Dame, then probably not. I didn’t find it to be the case, in my case. Unless wife is faking her attraction to me.





ConanHub said:


> 2: Women love to hunt.



Some do. And some men are not attracted to that. If you are fine with 2., then 1. will be your only option.



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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I can only agree with number 1. I have actually never known anyone who hunted men. I certainly never have.


Women who like to hunt.

It is still being researched but there have been some eye opening studies done to indicate that if women feel empowered and safe, as well as put in a position to do the hunting, they take to it like fish to water.

My anecdotal evidence differs from yours on this one but there are studies that seem to back my assertion.

I'm certain that, as in everything, some women will never enjoy hunting a mate but what I have experienced and what studies are showing is that a lot of women will hunt and enjoy it once empowered to do it which definitely goes against a lot of long held beliefs.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Women who like to hunt.
> 
> It is still being researched but there have been some eye opening studies done to indicate that if women feel empowered and safe, as well as put in a position to do the hunting, they take to it like fish to water.


Cool. Viva la empowerment.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Women who like to hunt.
> 
> It is still being researched but there have been some eye opening studies done to indicate that if women feel empowered and safe, as well as put in a position to do the hunting, they take to it like fish to water.
> 
> ...


For most of my life, and even now, I have never been wanting for female attention. It has always just been there. Many opportunities for sex initiated by women, most of which I rejected. In fact, I have never actually initiated or pursued a sexual relationship. They always came to me. My now wife, who had never made the first move on anyone was the one who initially pursued me. So in my experience, I have always seen women as the hunters.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> What would a man want from marriage ever? What is lacking now? Just sex? Do you think that has changed?


Men want the same things from a marriage that they ever wanted.

However, if you told most men that they could have everything they wanted in a marriage except sex, which often decreases as women tend to experience a lack of libido in committed relationships, I don't think you'd find many takers.

I would guess that there's about the same amount of sex in marriages now as there ever was. Perhaps less now as some wives are less willing to have sex if they're not aroused. Perhaps more since more attention is being given to female orgasms. Perhaps less as women become more self sufficient and have less reason to "look up to" their husbands.

The change is that, in the past, men were generally surprised when the sex disappeared (or thought they would be an exception). Now that the science is showing up, maybe less men will be caught off-guard.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Men want the same things from a marriage that they ever wanted.
> 
> However, if you told most men that they could have everything they wanted in a marriage except sex, which often decreases as women tend to experience a lack of libido in committed relationships, I don't think you'd find many takers.


And you believe that that is somehow different than it ever was?



> I would guess that there's about the same amount of sex in marriages now as there ever was. Perhaps less now as some wives are less willing to have sex if they're not aroused. Perhaps more since more attention is being given to female orgasms. Perhaps less as women become more self sufficient and have less reason to "look up to" their husbands.
> 
> The change is that, in the past, men were generally surprised when the sex disappeared (or thought they would be an exception). Now that the science is showing up, maybe less men will be caught off-guard.


Ah. Gotcha. With knowledge comes power. And what one chooses to do with that power can often be quite telling.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Lila said:


> I don't know @Ragnar Ragnasson. Given the choice of man for NSA sex, it's going to take more than "isn't lazy, trying to be all he can be, and somewhat attentive to surroundings" to get me to sleep with him. If it's only NSA, I'm going to shoot for the hottest guy I can wrangle with whom I have the most sexual chemistry.


I can dig that!

Being all you can be to me translates to be hot, ready to a good time, have your life together so you're an asset physically and financially, able to support your dating habits.

And attentive? That's being aware of the women around you and how they're presenting themselves. Just being there usually worked for me. 

Sometimes jeans and a T shirt is all that's needed. 😉


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I can only agree with number 1. I have actually never known anyone who hunted men. I certainly never have.
> 
> 
> ETA: Very strong response from one person on OLD who basically had NO life outside of work. He wanted a life which he expected to start when he met someone to love who would tell him what that looked like.
> ...


I like your example even though it is extreme, it very clearly illustrates the point.

What is OLD?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> If the book is correct, and if the man values sex as the MOST important thing to a committed relationship, and he's part of the top 20%, then no, there is no reason to enter or stay in a committed relationship.
> 
> As to your second point, I think the bigger question on the 80/20 rule is would a man choose to never (or rarely) have sex as a single person or enjoy some sex, possibly for a limited time, in a committed relationship?


As far as the theory goes (and I mostly agree but not so fervently that I'm willing to go to the mat over it), the top 20% (10%, whatever) would have even less reason to enter a committed relationship.

The difference is that the bottom 80% who thought that the only way to get sex was to get married may well decide: "Well, since that doesn't work either, forget it. I'll just watch sports, play video games and wait for the sexbots". And, I think that this is already starting to happen.
@faithfulwife and @NobodySpecial will say that removing these guys from the dating pool is no great loss (and I agree to a point), but I think that this is going to end up with a lot of under achieving men and many women without the committed relationships they want.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is interesting how the introduction of new information affects people. There are soooo many ways to process information. My husband read it and was like, yah, so? One other thing to know as we build our relationship. Certainly did not make him want to give up and decide ... well **** life's over. Guess I will just throw away all the good that comes from ltr.


Or you can say that you don't believe it, so it can't be true.

Or, you can say that since it doesn't apply to every situation, it can't be true.

Personally, it has no relevance to my life, some relevance to my kid's lives and it may have a great deal of relevance a lot of people I don't know.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Funny enough, my W and I were having a discussion on this exact topic last night. When I have a few minutes, I will post about.


I want to hear about this NOW!


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I want to hear about this NOW!


Haha, just checking in, give me a few and I will post. Much of what we talked about I think falls in line with what you and i have discussed here before.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I can dig that!
> 
> Being all you can be to me translates to be hot, ready to a good time, have your life together so you're an asset physically and financially, able to support your dating habits.
> 
> And attentive? That's being aware of the women around you and how they're presenting themselves. Just being there usually worked for me.


That's what I look for in a man for commitment. 



> Sometimes jeans and a T shirt is all that's needed. 😉


Yep.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> According to the argument, it is less a choice and more a matter of circumstance. Many single men can't fine women who'll have nsa sex with them.


There are two different possible realities:

1) There are a lot of opportunities for most men to have NSA sex with women (you just need to "be yourself").

2) There are a lot of opportunities for some small number of men (10%?) to have NSA sex with women. However, most men have few, if any, opportunities to have NSA sex with women.

We can argue about which view is "true", but if we're not in agreement on which reality we live in, nothing productive will come of talking about it.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I like your example even though it is extreme, it very clearly illustrates the point.
> 
> What is OLD?


online dating


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> As far as the theory goes (and I mostly agree but not so fervently that I'm willing to go to the mat over it), the top 20% (10%, whatever) would have even less reason to enter a committed relationship.
> 
> The difference is that the bottom 80% who thought that the only way to get sex was to get married may well decide: "Well, since that doesn't work either, forget it. I'll just watch sports, play video games and wait for the sexbots". And, I think that this is already starting to happen.
> 
> @faithfulwife and @NobodySpecial will say that removing these guys from the dating pool is no great loss (and I agree to a point), but I think that this is going to end up with a lot of under achieving men and many women without the committed relationships they want.


I don't agree with your conclusions but what do you recommend be done to avoid under achieving men and women without committed relationships? 

Whenever I see the type of scenario you presented, it is followed by sexual shaming of women. The rest of the conversation is usually encouragment to return to the "old days" and talk about how women should just "give sex" in marriage. There is rarely talk about how these sports watching, video game playing, sexbot users should step up their game and move out of their parents basements.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> There are two different possible realities:
> 
> 1) There are a lot of opportunities for most men to have NSA sex with women (*you just need to "be yourself"*).
> 
> ...


That bolded misses the mark. Be your best self. If the things about yourself that you cling to aren't your best bits, then no, you won't have opportunities.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> I don't agree with your conclusions but what do you recommend be done to avoid under achieving men and women without committed relationships?


No idea. I don't understand the question.



> Whenever I see the type of scenario you presented, it is followed by sexual shaming of women. The rest of the conversation is usually encouragment to return to the "old days" and talk about how women should just "give sex" in marriage. There is rarely talk about how these sports watching, video game playing, sexbot users should step up their game and move out of their parents basements.


Do you and don't go out with basement dwellers? I don't think I understand the question.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I don't agree with your conclusions but what do you recommend be done to avoid under achieving men and women without committed relationships?


I have no idea. 

I don't think anything can be "done" (and we certainly can't go back to the past, and I wouldn't want to if we could).

I do think that it's helpful to realize what's happening though.



Lila said:


> Whenever I see the type of scenario you presented, it is followed by sexual shaming of women.


I don't see the "sexual shaming of women" stuff (I don't doubt that it's there, I just don't see it). I believe that the sexual shaming of women was something primarily done by women. I think women are overly sensitive about this topic. I certainly have no desire to sexually shame anybody. 



Lila said:


> The rest of the conversation is usually encouragment to return to the "old days" and talk about how women should just "give sex" in marriage.


Yet, most men claim they would not be satisfied with their wives "just giving them sex".



Lila said:


> There is rarely talk about how these sports watching, video game playing, sexbot users should step up their game and move out of their parents basements.


Well, there's Jordan Peterson.

As a rule, these days I see a lot of attention to what would help young women. Not much about what would help young men.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> That bolded misses the mark. Be your best self. If the things about yourself that you cling to aren't your best bits, then no, you won't have opportunities.


Being one's "best self" is a commendable goal and will certainly improve a man's chances with women (not to mention his chances with everything else).

However, for those men who have the most success with women: are you saying that they are having that success primarily because they are doing better at "being their best") than the men who are not?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > According to the argument, it is less a choice and more a matter of circumstance. Many single men can't fine women who'll have nsa sex with them.
> ...


I think _most_ men cannot find women to engage in NSA sex. There are some that can. 

I think opportunities for NSA sex are plenty but it's a matter of supply and demand. There are less women interested in NSA sex than men at any given point. The NSA women get to choose from the available men in the NSA pool. The men that don't get chosen often enough (or never) can either wait for an NSA woman to pick him or change their strategy to include entering into the commitment pool where there are more available women.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I think _most_ men cannot find women to engage in NSA sex. There are some that can.
> 
> I think opportunities for NSA sex are plenty but it's a matter of supply and demand. There are less women interested in NSA sex than men at any given point. The NSA women get to choose from the available men in the NSA pool. The men that don't get chosen often enough (or never) can either wait for an NSA woman to pick him or change their strategy to include entering into the commitment pool where there are more available women.


Well, you and I live in the same reality anyway.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Being one's "best self" is a commendable goal and will certainly improve a man's chances with women (not to mention his chances with everything else).
> 
> However, for those men who have the most success with women: are you saying that they are having that success primarily because they are doing better at "being their best") than the men who are not?


Yes.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Well, you and I live in the same reality anyway.


It does tend to be easier to go the woe is me that's too hard look at how the cards are stacked against me route. That's a rhetorical me.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yes.


Thanks for clarifying.

I think it's important but that there's a lot more involved than that.

Is this the case for women as well (those women who have the most sexual success with men are having that success because they're doing a better job of "being their best")? (This is not a set-up. I've read that confident, capable, "get **** done" men are apparently more desirable to most women.)


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> I think it's important but that there's a lot more involved than that.
> 
> Is this the case for women as well (those women who have the most sexual success with men are having that success because they're doing a better job of "being their best")? (This is not a set-up. I've read that confident, capable, "get **** done" men are apparently more desirable to most women.)


I suspect the biggest factor for a woman to be successful at NSA sex is making herself enthusiastically available.


----------



## Dazedandconfused57! (May 8, 2019)

Lila said:


> I don't agree with your conclusions but what do you recommend be done to avoid under achieving men and women without committed relationships?
> 
> Whenever I see the type of scenario you presented, it is followed by sexual shaming of women. The rest of the conversation is usually encouragment to return to the "old days" and talk about how women should just "give sex" in marriage. There is rarely talk about how these sports watching, video game playing, sexbot users should step up their game and move out of their parents basements.


Regarding what to do, if the science continues to support the idea that women tend to bore more easily or more quickly than men in LTRs, we can dig a little deeper into that. If both men and women considering a LTR or marriage know this is a risk, maybe they can work together to avoid it or lessen it's impact. If men are raised to take care of themselves, as a measure of their identity as grown ups, then women may not lose respect for them. If we talk more openly about the changes men and women go through as they age, we may smooth the way for the difficult discussions that either party's physical changes may prompt, as opposed to being too embarrassed to face issues squarely. Just being aware of something tends to change a person's behavior. As has been noted, that may not lead to a productive change, but it's testament to the power of knowledge.

On your second paragraph, there are men who aren't basement dwellers who are struggling, either to make connections or to maintain fulfilling ones. The basement dwellers should by all means pick up their game if they're not OK with their lot. I'm 61, and the basement dweller type men have always been around, and they didn't fare to well socially 30 or 40 years ago either. I'm not sure more men than women are struggling now. It may be that a man who has had one relationship and a few flings by his late 20s feels more like he's missing out than a woman who has the same experiences. And then women tend to have more and better outlets than the internet to lament their situation, if they do find it lamentable. So the picture may be distorted, and then the internet gives men a place to exchange stories of how bad they have it. That builds on itself and further distorts reality.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > I don't agree with your conclusions but what do you recommend be done to avoid under achieving men and women without committed relationships?
> ...


Eek, I don't understand your questions 😄.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

So, have you all read the book? Or is this just an opportunity to spout off the typical traditional and non-traditional opinions?

I've read the free sample portion, from that it doesn't seem worth the purchase price for the admitted to biased point of view. >


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I don't see the "sexual shaming of women" stuff (I don't doubt that it's there, I just don't see it). I believe that the sexual shaming of women was something primarily done by women. I think women are overly sensitive about this topic. I certainly have no desire to sexually shame anybody.
> .


I know it is subtle, and I know you likely won't agree with me....but yes it _appears_ you do it, too. I'm saying "appears" because this is just simply how it appears and you likely don't even realize it. 


It goes something like this....


Argument: So apparently women lose their libido in LTR's. Then how the hell do they expect to have LTR's since obviously all men will always want sex?


Implication: Women better "give up the sex" if they expect to have LTR's.


Errors: 

1: it is an assumption that all women want LTR's and monogamy, which is based on old ideals of men, not necessarily on what women actually want. Yes, some women want that. As far as I have determined, the ones who want that can find it. The ones who don't want LTR's - and there are many - have feelings just as valid as the LTR seeking women. When you take us on an overall/average type of look, it is silly to keep on with the insisting that WOMEN are the ones who want LTR's and monogamy. It is quite clear that not only do many women not want them, many MORE men DO want them than what some of you make it out to look like. There's always some vague threat over women's heads that they better play the game the way men want us to, or else the men won't marry us and might go their own way. How long to women have to stand here saying "ok then, buh bye" before men will understand that women are not the ones driving the monogamy and marriage game?

2: instead of treating the loss of libido for women in LTR's like a natural occurrence, such as ED happening to men of a certain age, men want to take this all so personally. Sorry guys, if you are going to keep making it about you in that way, it is going to keep being very unsexy to us, and you'll keep wondering why we lose our libido. The same way that a wife who is all wigged out that her husband needs viagra and how it means he isn't that into her anymore. Her focus on the issue is going to make his ED even worse. But as usual, no...when it is the man, we are supposed to tip toe around his ego. When it is the woman, she better put out or those men won't stay married to her.


Again...the shaming part is where you say things like "well I see a lot of frustrated people in the future who can't get together". Since the basis of how that happens (in your opinion) is women's loss of libido in LTR's, then you are implying it is the women who should do something to change themselves so that those poor future people won't be frustrated. Where you don't see the light is that those future women will be having just what they want. You just don't like knowing what it is they really want, and so you warn them to stop doing what they want and instead, go back to being monogamous and ****ing your man. Most of your posts have this written between the lines.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It does tend to be easier to go the woe is me that's too hard look at how the cards are stacked against me route. That's a rhetorical me.


Actually, I found it easier to not be fully informed on how this stuff works.

I hit the jackpot on the 3rd try mostly due blind luck.

Had I known the truth, I might not have tried (or I would have done "better" and ended up without my wife).

Thankfully, I don't have to do that over again. 

Ignorance can be bliss. But once you start looking for answers, it's no longer as easy to be ignorant.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

@Buddy400 - OK, so my W has been going through this internal reflection period (reading up various books on personalities, marriage, sexual desire, etc...). Last night she was telling me about a book she was reading (don't recall title) and the way the author describing herself was basically describing my W as well (Great/attractive husband (her words, not mine lol), healthy kids, financial stability, etc... all things that would give the appearance of a perfect life, so why did her life not feel so great?). Always tired, losing who she was, lost of desire/drive, constant anxiety, etc... 

From this we started talking about the topic of desire in LTRs (based in part on the conversations here on TAM), and the idea that it is not all the uncommon for women to lose desire in LTRs (and really the question, why?). We went though some of the possible ideas (i.e. comfort/security, no longer having kids, hormonal changes, becoming parents, etc...). One thing I brought up was the idea that the loss of desire (for some women) was due to wanting to explore their sexuality outside of their marriage (the grey zone). Happy to report when I said this, you could see the reaction in my W's face like " I really hope my H doesn't think that at all" lol. Not that I was ever concerned, but we could rule out my W wanting to bang other dudes as a reason for her loss in desire  We came to some of the following "conclusions":

- My W hadn't so much as lost desire per se, but there had been a shift from being more spontaneous desire to almost exclusively responsive desire. Now the problem that comes out of this, in her head, if she didn't have desire at that exact moment, then there wasn't a reason to start anything (i.e. if she wanted me while I was at work, by the time I got home and settled in the moment has passed). I think she had the idea that every time I initiated, it was b/c I was a raging hornball but as I explained, there are actually a lot of times that is not that case. There are plenty of times I initiate simply b/c I want to be close to her, and even if I am not in the mood at that point, I know that once we get going it is never an issue for either of us to get in the mood. She seemed to understand looking at it from that angle, and mentioned that this weekend when she initiated (time of the month, so she gave me a bj each morning) she wasn't in the mood at first, but once she got started she got very turned on. I think RD can easily get confused with LD.

- My W lost herself in being a mother. This is something I have been pushing her on, to take time for herself, do things she wants to do and prioritize them (vs. scheduling herself almost exclusively around all the family stuff), don't feel guilty b/c she decided to just sit around one day and catch up on TV shows. It gets harder being a SAHM now b/c she is always "in it", the house is her office. This is the reason why when we go on vacation alone, once you remove the stresses/distractions of the house/family, she is a completely different person. I would have a bigger concern if things did not change when we were alone.

We talked about a bunch of other stuff as well (talked about some of things going through our heads in the past during the sexless periods, etc...), but I think that is the main jist. It is either something where you talk about with your SO, just accept that it is what it is, and make no effort to change. Or, knowing that things have changed, work together to figure out how best to approach. 

I also think we can't ignore one big factor that is usually involved with LTRs, and that would be a family.

It is a complicated issue with a lot of moving parts, which is why the "Its so easy, just do x, y, z" response you get from some here is rather short sighted IMO.

My W did ask me "So, if I got sick and was unable to have sex, what would you do?". Happy to report I passed the test lol


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> There are two different possible realities:
> 
> 1) There are a lot of opportunities for most men to have NSA sex with women (you just need to "be yourself").
> 
> ...


So is the problem that men don't get to have a lot of unattached sex and women do (which supposedly, women don't want to have it and men do want to have it), or is the problem that men don't get to have women wanting sex with them in the LTR's (which supposedly men don't even want to have LTR's, only women want them)?

What it always ends up sounding like is this: I am a man and I wish I could have sex with lots of women, but then find one woman who only wants to have sex with me. And yet when I cannot find this, it never occurs to me that maybe the sex drive is more similar between men and women. Instead I insist that women have "changed" and that they used to only want sex with one man while it was obviously totally normal for the man to want to have sex with everyone.

Why is the irony not more obvious?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I know it is subtle, and I know you likely won't agree with me....but yes it _appears_ you do it, too. I'm saying "appears" because this is just simply how it appears and you likely don't even realize it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would argue that your implication in this post is how you feel about Buddy's post, not necessarily what he was thinking.

Responding to that implication would be a perfect example of trying to compete with another person's internal dialogue.

In other words, you are deducing intentions for him that aren't necessarily there. 

from a historical perspective, I understand why you see it this way, and I do see it regularly as well. However, it is impossible to have any semblance of dialogue when somebody tells you what your intentions are, rather than believing what you say they are, or just outright asking.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I have no idea.
> 
> I don't think anything can be "done" (and we certainly can't go back to the past, and I wouldn't want to if we could).
> 
> I do think that it's helpful to realize what's happening though.


What do you feel is helpful about this knowledge? Is it so that men will avoid commitment? 





> Yet, most men claim they would not be satisfied with their wives "just giving them sex".


That's the part that that makes this all confusing. Most of the men who wishfully talk about the old days don't realize that the "old days" didn't include a sexually desirous wife. All it guaranteed was a wife who allowed her husband access to her body for sex. That's it.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> Eek, I don't understand your questions 😄.


What does that mean? I did not ask you any questions.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> What do you feel is helpful about this knowledge? Is it so that men will avoid commitment?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Many things about the "old days" are looked back upon with rose coloured blissfully distorted glasses, so not surprising that sex is too, in what ever aspect tends to make the point at the time.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I know it is subtle, and I know you likely won't agree with me....but yes it _appears_ you do it, too. I'm saying "appears" because this is just simply how it appears and you likely don't even realize it.
> 
> 
> It goes something like this....
> ...


The comparison to ED is very good.

A man could (and they often seem to) deny that there's a problem and insist that it's "not his fault" or make up reasons to avoid sex rather than deal with the problem (ED). With ED (or any other male sexual dysfunction) the solution is for the man to understand what's happening and to work with his wife using the approach that it's not something wrong with him or that he's no longer attracted to his wife.

A woman should insist that he address the issue and offer any assistance that she can provide. Assuaging his ego would be a nice idea if she wants the issue to be resolved (I don't know why women have such a problem with this).

A satisfying sexual relationship is key to a good marriage and a man with ED ignores this at his peril. 

So, with a loss of libido due to natural factors (anything beyond the control of the man), I would suggest the same approach. 

It's natural, it's not the man or the woman's "fault". There are things that can be done to improve the situation. Both partners should work together to seek solutions. 

A man should insist that she address the issue and offer any assistance that he can provide. I would recommend that the man be sensitive to his wife's ego and lay off the comments that "her body is nowhere near what it used to be but he is still attracted to her".

A satisfying sexual relationship is key to a good marriage and a woman a naturally occurring low libido ignores this at her peril. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Again...the shaming part is where you say things like "well I see a lot of frustrated people in the future who can't get together". Since the basis of how that happens (in your opinion) is women's loss of libido in LTR's, then you are implying it is the women who should do something to change themselves so that those poor future people won't be frustrated. Where you don't see the light is that those future women will be having just what they want. *You just don't like knowing what it is they really want, and so you warn them to stop doing what they want and instead, go back to being monogamous and ****ing your man. Most of your posts have this written between the lines*.


The weird thing is that, with all the conversations we've had over all this time, you still default to thinking that I'm saying things like the above.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > Eek, I don't understand your questions 😄.
> ...


"Do you and don't go out with basement dwellers? I don't think I understand the question."

This @NobodySpecial. I dont understand what you were trying to say/ask with this part of your post.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> "Do you and don't go out with basement dwellers? I don't think I understand the question."
> 
> This @NobodySpecial. I dont understand what you were trying to say/ask with this part of your post.


I *think* you asked something like how to avoid basement dwellers. Which I don't understand.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> What does that mean? I did not ask you any questions.


It looked to me like you directed a post meant for me to @Lila, therefore the confusion


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Actually, I found it easier to not be fully informed on how this stuff works.
> 
> I hit the jackpot on the 3rd try mostly due blind luck.
> 
> ...


Nobody can complain when luck hands 'em a good one. Personally, I would rather be informed and succeed than ignorant and fail. Not everyone would.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> That's the part that that makes this all confusing. Most of the men who wishfully talk about the old days don't realize that the "old days" didn't include a sexually desirous wife. All it guaranteed was a wife who allowed her husband access to her body for sex. That's it.


I think the idea that men simply want access to their W's bodies for sex is a bit of an exaggeration (not saying by you, just in general). Sometimes it is just the easier answer to believe.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> So is the problem that men don't get to have a lot of unattached sex and women do (which supposedly, women don't want to have it and men do want to have it), or is the problem that men don't get to have women wanting sex with them in the LTR's (which supposedly men don't even want to have LTR's, only women want them)?
> 
> What it always ends up sounding like is this: I am a man and I wish I could have sex with lots of women, but then find one woman who only wants to have sex with me. And yet when I cannot find this, it never occurs to me that maybe the sex drive is more similar between men and women. Instead I insist that women have "changed" and that they used to only want sex with one man while it was obviously totally normal for the man to want to have sex with everyone.
> 
> Why is the irony not more obvious?


The "ability to have NSA sex" was a standard proposed by someone else as a proxy for "success with women".

I realized using that as a proxy was problematic but, I decided to accept the proposition as stated to move the discussion forward rather than veer of course trying to redefine the proposition.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Nobody can complain when luck hands 'em a good one.


I can.

Apparently


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I can.
> 
> Apparently


lol. Is that what you are doing?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > That's the part that that makes this all confusing. Most of the men who wishfully talk about the old days don't realize that the "old days" didn't include a sexually desirous wife. All it guaranteed was a wife who allowed her husband access to her body for sex. That's it.
> ...


I'm not saying that that's what these guys that want us going back to the "old days" want. In fact I think they want the sexual desire and modern day sexually open attitudes about sex but within the confines of the "old days" mentality where  husband's had complete accessibility to the wives. In other words, they want to have sex on demand but with a wife that is as much into it as they are.


----------



## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> What possible reason could there be for men who value sex to enter into committed relationships with women?


Because few men are told that their best sex are pre-marriage vs. post marriage. And those that ARE told think it wont happen to them.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> [MENTION=154305] - OK, so my W has been going through this internal reflection period (reading up various books on personalities, marriage, sexual desire, etc...)......


Ah, if only more couples could have talks like that!

Now, you just have to hope your saying that "I'm not necessarily horny every time I initiate" doesn't come back to bite you.

I do the same, but a big part of my wife's desire seems to be my desire, so I *keep* that under wraps. 

But really, no worries. You're way ahead of the game.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> The weird thing is that, with all the conversations we've had over all this time, you still default to thinking that I'm saying things like the above.


Remember how recently you had said you understood how the "hamster" thing was insulting to women, and that you'd try not to use that phrase like that anymore?

I'm sorry but, there is still a tinge within your words that has a hint of shaming. The same way that "hamster" does, even though you claimed not to want to use that as shaming either, you realized it could come across that way.

What I think is that you have a deep rooted amount of old thoughts still within you that haven't loosened up quite yet...about women's sexuality. The reason I think this is because you keep asking the same question over and over in different ways. I'm not saying this is a bad thing.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I'm not saying that that's what these guys that want us going back to the "old days" want. In fact I think they want the sexual desire and modern day sexually open attitudes about sex but within the confines of the "old days" mentality *where husband's had complete accessibility to the wives*. In other words, they want to have sex on demand but with a wife that is as much into it as they are.


But, per the bolded, did they really?

I know there was too much (any amount is too much) sex forced on wives in the "good old days", but this was hardly universal.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> The comparison to ED is very good.
> 
> A man could (and they often seem to) deny that there's a problem and insist that it's "not his fault" or make up reasons to avoid sex rather than deal with the problem (ED). With ED (or any other male sexual dysfunction) the solution is for the man to understand what's happening and to work with his wife using the approach that it's not something wrong with him or that he's no longer attracted to his wife.
> 
> ...


The bolded is where shaming comes in.

What if she is never going to get her mojo back for him? Then wouldn't the correct thing to do for her be to move on?

Why is it always at HER peril? Like she's going to "pay" for her lack of libido with a big fat divorce! Take that you frigid cow! Except...she's the one who walks out happily and willingly and finds a new man or three.

If you just take it out of the equation that women are the ones who insist on LTR's and monogamy, things will make a lot more sense.

I'm not saying it is a good thing to get divorced just because you've lost your libido or have ED. But I'm also saying that half of everyone will be divorced so....pick your reason. 

What if divorce and amicably moving on to new partners is NOT the end of the entire world? What if we just should have done that sooner?


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> But, per the bolded, did they really?
> 
> I know there was too much (any amount is too much) sex forced on wives in the "good old days", but this was hardly universal.


Nor was it unheard of for the wife to give the duty sex at home, and get the hot sex elsewhere.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> However,* if you told most men* that they could have everything they wanted in a marriage except sex, which often decreases as women tend to experience a lack of libido in committed relationships, I don't think you'd find many takers.


So....should we NOT tell them?

I think everyone should be handed this information as part of adult sex and relationship education.

What they do with the information is up to them from there.

Not having it is a problem.

Trying to hide is so that the young men won't run away from marriage? Shaming of women.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Steve2.0 said:


> Because few men are told that their best sex are pre-marriage vs. post marriage. And those that ARE told think it wont happen to them.


I think we should tell them all. And tell the women the same. That her best sex would be pre-marriage, and that she statistically will not still desire a man she's in an LTR after a period of time.

Then let them all decide what THEY want to do.

Why do we keep pushing marriage on them as if it is the best way for everyone? Obviously the divorce stats are telling us maybe marriage isn't the answer.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Remember how recently you had said you understood how the "hamster" thing was insulting to women, and that you'd try not to use that phrase like that anymore?


And I'm, pretty certain I've never used that word again. I didn't want my word choice to make people think I believe things I do not. 

I was trying to define the fact that both men and women have desires, instincts, needs that are biological (unconscious) in origin. It turned out that word was popular with the Red Pill crowd and served to unwillingly identify me as agreeing with everything they said. 



Faithful Wife said:


> I'm sorry but, there is still a tinge within your words that has a hint of shaming. The same way that "hamster" does, even though you claimed not to want to use that as shaming either, you realized it could come across that way.


I try very hard (and go to a great deal of effort) to phrase things in a way that won't be misunderstood. But, we can't win 'em all.



Faithful Wife said:


> What I think is that you have a deep rooted amount of old thoughts still within you that haven't loosened up quite yet...about women's sexuality. The reason I think this is because you keep asking the same question over and over in different ways. I'm not saying this is a bad thing.


Generally, I believe most of what I read about female sexuality. Of course, when different texts say different things, one has to choose. However, almost no one is saying that we had it right in the 1950's, so I wouldn't have anyone to agree with if I thought that was the case.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Steve2.0 said:


> Because few men are told that their best sex are pre-marriage vs. post marriage. And those that ARE told think it wont happen to them.


IDK, nearly 18 yrs married and sex is the best it has ever been (with my W of course lol). It is all the other things that come along with a LTR (which for better or worse may have a direct impact on one's sex life) that some (many?) aren't quite prepared for.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> So....should we NOT tell them?
> 
> I think everyone should be handed this information as part of adult sex and relationship education.
> 
> ...


I've never been in favor of "hiding" anything.

I'm all for full disclosure.

What to we do about the women who DO want a committed relationship? (Here I am, pretending to care about women again)


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Ah, if only more couples could have talks like that!
> 
> *Now, you just have to hope your saying that "I'm not necessarily horny every time I initiate" doesn't come back to bite you.*
> 
> ...


Per the bolded, I don't think it will be an issue per se. It was said more in the context of when my W and I were talking, she mentioned she never had that feeling at any point in her life (how did she put it "Walking around the store and suddenly the urge to rip off my clothes takes over her"). So I think as someone like her who has never had a high sex drive, she may have a slightly unrealistic idea of how a high drive person responds. I think she is hoping that she could somehow experience this (she does want to be higher drive). I could offer to shoot her up with test and hope her voice doesn't get too deep >


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> The bolded is where shaming comes in.
> 
> What if she is never going to get her mojo back for him? Then wouldn't the correct thing to do for her be to move on?
> 
> ...


Even though I typed "his peril" when I said almost the exact same thing about men a couple of lines above?

Really??


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Haven't read all responses yet. My experience in this ecosystem is no surprise. 

I'm back on the committed, monogamy train. My wife is not yet 50, but wrapped up menopause over the last year. Shes a great communicator. She has worked very hard to convince me that her complete collapse of her libido IS in fact that she just has no interest in sex ... not that she isn't interested in having sex with me.
She harkened all the way back to conversation we had nearly 5 years ago about sexless marriages, where I said those words.
"It isn't that women dont want sex. They just dont want it with their long term partner." And at that time she agreed.

As for me? I love my wife, and I'm confident we will talk and fool around our way through it. 
If my wife began to develop the kind of sexual aversion my ex did ... well then I would presume the issue likely doesn't lie with them.

I'm glad I got to have my few years of wildly spontaneous, creative, and enjoyable sex with a variety of partners with whom desire didnt have time to grow stale. It was a fun, fulfilling experience. 

The one size fits all approach cuts both ways. No, not all women lose sexual desire for their LTR partner. But we would do well to assume that neither desire nor its lack is EVER going to remain static without awareness and effort on the part of both parties in a LTR.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I've never been in favor of "hiding" anything.
> 
> I'm all for full disclosure.
> 
> What to we do about the women who DO want a committed relationship? (Here I am, pretending to care about women again)


We tell both young men and women that hey, guess what we learned for you?

There is a better than 50% chance that you will end up divorced, he will have some amount of ED eventually, he will likely gain weight, she will too but he probably won’t care, and she will likely lose her desire for him over time, but he won’t. 

What does this seem to point to?

Perhaps that “forever” relationships can be obtained but the desire and/or sex life will be difficult to maintain at the same level as the beginning of the relationship. Some will still choose to couple up and will stay even without good sex. Others will try and end up divorced. Some will cheat and hurt each other.

Kind of like now.


----------



## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think we should tell them all. And tell the women the same. That her best sex would be pre-marriage, and that she statistically will not still desire a man she's in an LTR after a period of time.
> 
> Then let them all decide what THEY want to do.
> 
> Why do we keep pushing marriage on them as if it is the best way for everyone? Obviously the divorce stats are telling us maybe marriage isn't the answer.


Its true. Everyone is expected to just follow *THE PATH;* School > Career > Love Interest > Spouse > Kids

Like ****... why didnt anyone tell me how hard kids were... like REALLY tell me.. Not sugar coat some "oh its hard but SOOO rewarding"



_And a disclaimer_ - I am actually having better sex today than I was pre-marriage. But that is a rarity and the first 7-8 years of my marriage would have put me in the typical 'drip sex' category. I suspect 95% of the men in the world aren't willing to put the sweat and efforts I did to turn my **** around and would be happy with their drip sex. Why 95%? Because I look around and i see it... unattractive husbands who spend 1-3 hours a night watching sports drinking alcohol instead of improving their life.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not saying that that's what these guys that want us going back to the "old days" want. In fact I think they want the sexual desire and modern day sexually open attitudes about sex but within the confines of the "old days" mentality *where husband's had complete accessibility to the wives*. In other words, they want to have sex on demand but with a wife that is as much into it as they are.
> ...


Yes they did. It was a woman's wifely obligation. Women knew this was their job. I don't think men back then were too concerned about responsive desire or otherwise. as a matter of fact I don't think women back then were to concerned about responsive desire or otherwise. It was their duty. That is where the term duty sex comes from.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> I'm not saying that that's what these guys that want us going back to the "old days" want. In fact I think they want the sexual desire and modern day sexually open attitudes about sex but within the confines of the "old days" mentality where husband's had complete accessibility to the wives. In other words, *they want to have sex on demand* but with a wife that is as much into it as they are.


I agree in the sense that men in LTRs (where they are actually attracted to their Wives) want more than just a body, they want a shared desire (the reason why you will hear guys complain about starfish sex).

However, I still think with the bolded you are portraying men in a somewhat negative light (whether you mean to or not, on demand still implies a very one sided approach). Who knows though, maybe there are more men than I realize who are looking for sex on demand in an LTR, IDK... I have never gotten that impression from many of the guys i know.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> lol. Is that what you are doing?


It's very odd that I am very happily married for 30 years, love my wife, wife is crazy about me, I have all the enthusiastic sex I want, my wife claims (and seems) to be having best orgasms of her life, no complaints or issues of any sort.....

And yet, here I am


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I agree in the sense that men in LTRs (where they are actually attracted to their Wives) want more than just a body, they want a shared desire (the reason why you will hear guys complain about starfish sex).
> 
> However, I still think with the bolded you are portraying men in a somewhat negative light (whether you mean to or not, on demand still implies a very one sided approach). Who knows though, maybe there are more men than I realize who are looking for sex on demand in an LTR, IDK... I have never gotten that impression from many of the guys i know.


I think she’s talking about in the old days. The ones the red pill eaters talk about. And yes there seems to have been a sense of “on demand” back then.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> It's very odd that I am very happily married for 30 years, love my wife, wife is crazy about me, I have all the enthusiastic sex I want, my wife claims (and seems) to be having best orgasms of her life, no complaints or issues of any sort.....
> 
> And yet, here I am


I enjoy bantering with you. Though I’m always confused about the amount of concern you have for men who don’t get enough sex.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Steve2.0 said:


> Because few men are told that their best sex are pre-marriage vs. post marriage. And those that ARE told think it wont happen to them.


Ok. So @EllisRedding and I both seem to be living life in defiance of this sentiment and possibly @samyeagar and maybe the OP of this thread as well. I'm uncertain as to the lengths of their marriages.

So there are at very least two men posting on this thread that
are experiencing something different.

My wife's sexual desire for me is not going away. A few more months will mark 28 years since our first date and 24 married.

She initiated last night and it was literally mind blowing.

Are Ellis and I just lucky, the 20% or maybe something else is going on?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Yes they did. It was a woman's wifely obligation. Women knew this was their job. I don't think men back then were too concerned about responsive desire or otherwise. as a matter of fact I don't think women back then were to concerned about responsive desire or otherwise. It was their duty. That is where the term duty sex comes from.


I don't think this is an accurate representation of the past. No idea where we could look for data on this.

I'm pretty sure that the average husband wasn't just having all the sex with his wife that he wanted and this suddenly stopped in 1980.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think she’s talking about in the old days. The ones the red pill eaters talk about. And yes there seems to have been a sense of “on demand” back then.


I read it to be her talking about now, not the old days. She is stating that these men now want "old days" sex (replace wifely obligation with on demand enthusiastic sex)


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Even though I typed "his peril" when I said almost the exact same thing about men a couple of lines above?
> 
> Really??


Ok actually it’s funny because I was going to put it this way but decided not to. So I’ll do it here....

It’s silly to shame either of them with “at their peril”. This is pushing the idea that staying together is always what should happen.

I’m saying that I think relationships can come to a natural end and that possibly nature has set up our bodies to ensure this, that may be why it is so common.

I actually don’t think we should shame a man in that case either, there are lots of men who in middle life, do not want to share their lives with a woman anymore. And I don’t mean because he wants to play the field. Many times it is just because he is tired of being a husband and wants to only take care of himself (and if he had ED, it’s just easier to be single). And since a guy like this isn’t much good to her, I’m saying sometimes it’s the right thing to let go. And sometimes nature is the one who gives you that nudge. 

The shaming I’m seeing here is that there is some kind of ultimate “best” label placed on LTR’s that “everyone” should be striving for and those who don’t try their best to work it out are “wrong”.

If you came at all of it from a more academic and less pro relationship stance, I wouldn’t see it as shaming.

Make any sense?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I read it to be her talking about now, not the old days. She is stating that these men now want "old days" sex (replace wifely obligation with on demand enthusiastic sex)


I think (she can let us know) if she’s talking about men these days thinking that way, she’s talking about the red pill nonsense.

I mean, those blogs literally have tag lines like “make her beg YOU for sex!”


----------



## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Ok. So @EllisRedding
> So there are at very least two men posting on this thread that are experiencing something different.


I put this disclaimer on a followup, but should have put it on original post;

_And a disclaimer _- I am actually having better sex today than I was pre-marriage. But that is a rarity and the first 7-8 years of my marriage would have put me in the typical 'drip sex' category. I suspect 95% of the men in the world aren't willing to put the sweat and efforts I did to turn my **** around and would be happy with their drip sex. Why 95%? Because I look around and i see it... unattractive husbands who spend 1-3 hours a night watching sports drinking alcohol instead of improving their life.

I have too many instances of husbands 'joking' about the lack of sex in their life to not assume that 'we' are deta/special cases and not the norm


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think (she can let us know) if she’s talking about men these days thinking that way, she’s talking about the red pill nonsense.
> 
> I mean, those blogs literally have tag lines like “make her beg YOU for sex!”


I agree if she is specifically referring to the Red Pillers. I just consider them a small/insignificant portion


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

For my husband sex after marriage was/is definitely far better, especially as he never had sex before marriage.:wink2:

For him and most men I would think marriage is about far more than just sex. Yes its very important, but its just part of the marriage as a whole. Yes things will change as children come along, as we age, as problems crop up, that's what marriage is about, commitment and faithfulness, being best friends, lovers, and loving each other through the good times and the bad. If the marriage is good, then often the sex will be good, and making sure we work on all aspect of the marriage is vital as well. 
Its like a garden, we have to keep weeding, keep pruning, mowing the lawn, cutting back the bushes or it will fast grow wild. 
We are both in our early 60's now, married for 14 years this year, sex is as good if not better than when we first married.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Steve2.0 said:


> I put this disclaimer on a followup, but should have put it on original post;
> 
> _And a disclaimer _- I am actually having better sex today than I was pre-marriage. But that is a rarity and the first 7-8 years of my marriage would have put me in the typical 'drip sex' category. I suspect 95% of the men in the world aren't willing to put the sweat and efforts I did to turn my **** around and would be happy with their drip sex. Why 95%? Because I look around and i see it... unattractive husbands who spend 1-3 hours a night watching sports drinking alcohol instead of improving their life.
> 
> I have too many instances of husbands 'joking' about the lack of sex in their life to not assume that 'we' are deta/special cases and not the norm


Yup. After I posted, I found out you are included in the group.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I think she’s talking about in the old days. The ones the red pill eaters talk about. And yes there seems to have been a sense of “on demand” back then.
> ...


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. There are men out there that encourage this. I'm saying they want the "best" of back then without considering the negatives that came with the back then.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

ConanHub said:


> Are Ellis and I just lucky, the 20% or maybe something else is going on?



Yes.
To all 3.

If we put sexual desire and activity on a bell curve, you and Ellis and the sexual high achievers are on the opposite cusp from the 40+ year old male virgins who will likely never be sexually desired by anyone. And let's not kid ourselves ... those guys exist too.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I don't think this is an accurate representation of the past. No idea where we could look for data on this.


There are plenty of books that show what the sex lives of women was back then. What do you think it was like? 



> I'm pretty sure that the average husband wasn't just having all the sex with his wife that he wanted and this suddenly stopped in 1980.


I'm thinking more like pre-sexual revolution..


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Yes.
> To all 3.
> 
> If we put sexual desire and activity on a bell curve, you and Ellis and the sexual high achievers are on the opposite cusp from the 40+ year old male virgins who will likely never be sexually desired by anyone. And let's not kid ourselves ... those guys exist too.


Not going to disagree about the 40 year old virgins but they don't even come into play.

The relationships we are talking about here have women very sexually excited by and active with a partner until domesticity sets in for a while.

These gals continue to be highly sexual creatures but not towards their mates past an undetermined period of time.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Ok. So @EllisRedding and I both seem to be living life in defiance of this sentiment and possibly @samyeagar and maybe the OP of this thread as well. I'm uncertain as to the lengths of their marriages.
> 
> So there are at very least two men posting on this thread that
> are experiencing something different.
> ...


I'm the OP and I'm getting more and better sex now than when I was first married (or, for that matter, at any time previously).

I did not have lots of sex with attractive women as a single guy (not sure if this was because it wasn't available or if it was because I didn't try to).

But this and having "success with women"" as a single guy are different animals.

Some men (the 10% or so?) have lots of sex with lots of attractive women as single men. The same man could have little sex with his wife and the reverse is also true.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Not going to disagree about the 40 year old virgins but they don't even come into play.
> 
> The relationships we are talking about here have women very sexually excited by and active with a partner until domesticity sets in for a while.
> 
> These gals continue to be highly sexual creatures but not towards their mates past an undetermined period of time.



1. The wimmiz wants the Conan. 

2. The Conan and Mrs. C are experiencing long term passion.



Question:

What does the Conan and the Mrs. C have that others do not?




For one thing, they are both highly sexual and not ashamed of their sexual natures. If you start out with LESS THAN THIS, your results will vary from what Mr. and Mrs. C are experiencing.

Next thing, they have both remained physically fit and attractive to each other.

More things, Conan is not a dud in bed, has remained sexy and sexual toward her during their whole relationship, has not become less than the barbarian he always was.



I don't think Conan's relationship is totally unusual. However, like I said above...if you AND your spouse are not both highly sexual people who are unashamed and at least somewhat self aware when you met, then this is not going to mirror your experience.

There are couples who do flourish together and become self aware together and find their high sex drives. But those were repressed highly sexual people.

There are a large percentage of the population who just aren't that sexual. And sometimes people who are less sexual wonder why they don't have sex like people who are more sexual.

It's something in your nature.

Less sexual people can still have wonderful, awesome sex lives. But if they think their sights should be on what more sexual people are doing, they are wrong. They won't be able to keep up with that anyway (applies to both male and female).


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. There are men out there that encourage this. I'm saying they want the "best" of back then without considering the negatives that came with the back then.


Why "men want" is stupid. I think there are men who would be happy as clams (except do we know clams are particularly happy?) to have on demand sex and who gives a **** of she likes it.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> (except do we know clams are particularly happy?)


Well mine is especially lonely right now, but overall I'd describe her as happy.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> So....should we NOT tell them?
> 
> I think everyone should be handed this information as part of adult sex and relationship education.
> 
> ...


Seems more like lying to men but I'm all for disclosure. I've got a really good, much younger friend, who got married within the past year. Madly in love with a knock out women. I warned him, said it won't happen to him. Hope he is right, kinda doubt it though...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why "men want" is stupid. I think there are men who would be happy as clams (except do we know clams are particularly happy?) to have on demand sex and who gives a **** of she likes it.


And for Buddy, Ellis, Rocky....we don't mean you guys.

There are lots and lots of much different guys than you.

They aren't hanging around at marriage forums.

I'm only pointing this out because there are "men" and what the average man we encounter may do and think....and then there are the guys here who we are talking to, who actually are happily married and definitely do give a **** if she likes it. But you guys likely don't know about those other guys and how many of them there are.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> 1. The wimmiz wants the Conan.
> 
> 2. The Conan and Mrs. C are experiencing long term passion.
> 
> ...


My husband was this.



> There are couples who do flourish together and become self aware together and find their high sex drives. But those were repressed highly sexual people.


I was this.



> There are a large percentage of the population who just aren't that sexual. And sometimes people who are less sexual wonder why they don't have sex like people who are more sexual.
> 
> It's something in your nature.
> 
> Less sexual people can still have wonderful, awesome sex lives. But if they think their sights should be on what more sexual people are doing, they are wrong. They won't be able to keep up with that anyway (applies to both male and female).


I think this is over simplification. I think there ARE people who are less or not sexual. I think there are people who are kinda stumped from their early experiences and upbringing, religious stuff.... I think there are many, many things that contribute to why these solutions are never just do x and y will follow.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I think this is over simplification. I think there ARE people who are less or not sexual. I think there are people who are kinda stumped from their early experiences and upbringing, religious stuff.... I think there are many, many things that contribute to why these solutions are never just do x and y will follow.


I have never advocated anywhere that doing x and y will follow.

What I am saying is that other men who are not as sexual as Conan and whose wives are not as sexual as Mrs. C should not aspire to have Conan's sex life.

If he or she isn't very highly sexual to begin with, then even at their best sex amount/quality, it won't be a crazy ****athon like Conan's sex life.

It just won't.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

faithful wife said:


> and for buddy, ellis, rocky....we don't mean you guys.


no indeed i sure don't.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok actually it’s funny because I was going to put it this way but decided not to. So I’ll do it here....
> 
> It’s silly to shame either of them with “at their peril”. This is pushing the idea that staying together is always what should happen.
> 
> ...


It was just very odd that that I would say the *exact same thing* about men that I said about women (inthe same post) and you would mention that what I said about women was sex shaming women.

Taking a 'sex shaming men and women" would have been appropriate, weird, but appropriate.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've been with guys who can't wait to go to bed with me because they claim they are just soooooo sexual.

After sampling, I find out what they actually mean is that they like having sex. It is nice sex. It is efficient sex. It may be connected and intimate.

But that is certainly not what I meant when I said I am highly sexual. And the guy is clueless that we were ever talking about different things.

This is because he simply isn't as sexual as I am. And this happens a lot.

And I think this happens a lot more in the wild than many guys think happens. That women (who are not repressed) are highly sexual in significant numbers (there's a bell curve but there is a very large section at the top of the bell curve), and that there is a significant number of men on the lower half of that bell curve who simply won't be able to keep up.

I'm pointing this out because this is one missing piece that a lot of guys don't factor in, because they are still so in their heads that men are the ones who are "more sexual" and women are the one who "want monogamy". And so they don't even think about the millions of us women who are far more sexual than they are.

In fact, if you go by what our biology is saying to us, women are the ones who need non-monogamy and men are the ones who need/desire monogamy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> It was just very odd that that I would say the *exact same thing* about men that I said about women (inthe same post) and you would mention that what I said about women was sex shaming women.
> 
> Taking a 'sex shaming men and women" would have been appropriate, weird, but appropriate.


There is an overall shaming of people who don't conform and get into LTR's and then do everything they can to stay in that LTR.

That seeps out in your posts.

I don't know if you really mean it or not, but it does.

On TOP of the relationship shaming, you keep pointing out that these women will not "get what they want" (relationships) and these men will not "get what they want" (long term desire with one woman).

When you continue to point to women as BOTH the gate keepers of sex and relationships AND as the ones who want those relationships, you seem to put all the blame on her side.

Again, if you would simply remove the idea that LTR's are in fact the best thing to happen for everyone, and if we could start from there, then I would not see the disparity in your posts.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I have never advocated anywhere that doing x and y will follow.
> 
> What I am saying is that other men who are not as sexual as Conan and whose wives are not as sexual as Mrs. C should not aspire to have Conan's sex life.
> 
> ...


This is a point that I guess I have never really believed or maybe never wanted to.

Hell, maybe you are right. Maybe, for several reasons, some people just aren't as sexual.

I have never really met women that seemed asexual or very low libido but I'm hardly the sum total of experience regarding ladies.

Maybe I want to believe it can get better for people who are struggling.

I've at least seen short term, 10 years observation, improvement in one couple but they are having problems that could be attributed to the phenomenon of a lack of female sexual desire for a domesticated mate.

I would really like to see them make it but maybe I just have hope colored glasses on in regards to them.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I have never really met women that seemed asexual or very low libido but I'm hardly the sum total of experience regarding ladies.


Because highly sexual people find each other, and have sex (I call it sexdar). So you are only going to attract that type of woman. You would not even notice a less sexual woman. And a highly sexual woman will not notice a less sexual man.

Sorry, that's just how it works.

Less sexual people can still have a great sex life. It just won't be like yours or mine. And MANY of them would not choose to have one like yours or mine. But some think they can have that, and they can't. And sometimes the reason they can't is themselves, not their spouse.

ETA: I think some men, for example who are not that sexual, and they see or hear about a man who has a woman who is all over him all the time, doesn't realize that...

A. He is not as highly sexual as the other guy, and

B. His wife is not as sexual as the other wife, OR....

C. If his wife IS that sexual, but he doesn't realize if this is the case, he will not be able to keep up with her.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> So is the problem that men don't get to have a lot of unattached sex and women do (which supposedly, women don't want to have it and men do want to have it), or is the problem that men don't get to have women wanting sex with them in the LTR's (which supposedly men don't even want to have LTR's, only women want them)?



Let's see, while I never experienced "a lot of unattached sex with women" I wasn't particularly interested in that. I did have plenty of sex with a handful of women in a relationship. If I had realized the after marriage part was going to be like a switch going off I could have been perfectly happy not getting married and switching to someone new when the lot's of sex part came to an end. 

But you know, she wanted the ring.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Because highly sexual people find each other, and have sex. So you are only going to attract that type of woman. You would not even notice a less sexual woman. And a highly sexual woman will not notice a less sexual man.
> 
> *Sorry, that's just how it works.*
> 
> Less sexual people can still have a great sex life. It just won't be like yours or mine. And MANY of them would not choose to have one like yours or mine. But some think they can have that, and they can't. And sometimes the reason they can't is themselves, not their spouse.


Really?

Cuz' there's a lot of sexual mismatches out there. Apparently, plenty of highly sexual people are ending up with far less sexual partners. Didn't you say yourself you were in such a situation in your own marriage? As highly sexual as you are, you somehow not only managed to "see," but also attracted and married a not that type of man.


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## Dazedandconfused57! (May 8, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> There is an overall shaming of people who don't conform and get into LTR's and then do everything they can to stay in that LTR.
> 
> That seeps out in your posts.
> 
> ...


Imagine a young man who is fit but not in an underwear model way, and pleasant enough looking overall, but not someone women stare at. And let's say he's sexual but not what you'd consider sexual, and he somehow knows this. What would you advise him is his best way forward regarding relationships and sex?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Because highly sexual people find each other, and have sex. So you are only going to attract that type of woman. You would not even notice a less sexual woman. And a highly sexual woman will not notice a less sexual man.
> 
> Sorry, that's just how it works.
> 
> ...


This is giving me some very unwanted food for thought but I am not averse to what I consider ugly truths.

This might help me in giving advice to couples.

I really don't want to believe that some people can't get that sexual but that is far less offensive than buying into the alpha/ 20% theories out there.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Really?
> 
> Cuz' there's a lot of sexual mismatches out there. Apparently, plenty of highly sexual people are ending up with far less sexual partners. Didn't you say yourself you were in such a situation in your own marriage? As highly sexual as you are, you somehow not only managed to "see," but also attracted and married a not that type of man.


But you see....I also left.

Because I'm so highly sexual, that that situation would never have worked for me (I stayed over 10 years though). That was 9 years too many, but kids and all.

I married him _because I became pregnant at age 20_. It was obvious within only a few months that he was not even close to being as sexual as I am. I don't regret having his kids, but I do regret marrying him because it turns out, there was no real reason to. 

He would have never left me. Even if I never had sex with him again. Because he isn't very sexual and it was more comfortable for him to be married than not. I am extremely sexual, and being married to him was like a slow death because of it (not in the rest of the relationship, but in the sex life).

Not very sexual = likely to accept a sexless situation

Very sexual = will not accept a sexless situation


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Let's see, while I never experienced "a lot of unattached sex with women" I wasn't particularly interested in that. I did have plenty of sex with a handful of women in a relationship. If I had realized the after marriage part was going to be like a switch going off I could have been perfectly happy not getting married and switching to someone new when the lot's of sex part came to an end.
> 
> But you know, she wanted the ring.


If someone had told you, would you have believed them?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> This is giving me some very unwanted food for thought but I am not averse to what I consider ugly truths.
> 
> This might help me in giving advice to couples.
> 
> I really don't want to believe that some people can't get that sexual but that is far less offensive than buying into the alpha/ 20% theories out there.


Why is it an ugly truth?

What I'm saying, if it was understood, would help couples avoid mismatches.

The thing is, people who aren't that sexual, if they are matched well, STILL HAVE a rocking sex life. It is just different than yours and mine.

Get it?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Really?
> 
> Cuz' there's a lot of sexual mismatches out there. Apparently, plenty of highly sexual people are ending up with far less sexual partners. Didn't you say yourself you were in such a situation in your own marriage? As highly sexual as you are, you somehow not only managed to "see," but also attracted and married a not that type of man.


It probably falls into the category she talked about where someone is aware.

Awareness is probably a key element and falls into her "sexdar" theory that I find charming and probably accurate.

I know a couple that are mismatched but it is because of lack of awareness among other issues.

She is actually a sexual tigress while he is just a bit of a horny goat.

He likes sex but is not that sexual of a creature. She didn't even know she liked sex until he took some lessons and learned to hit the right buttons.

She is far superior in both appetite and ability. @Faithful Wife has a model that fits this couple far better than my own and facing a possibly ugly truth might help them in some ways.

Ugh!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Why is it an ugly truth?
> 
> What I'm saying, if it was understood, would help couples avoid mismatches.
> 
> ...


I am considering coming around to your thinking because it really might fit this couple that is very close to us.

I would classify him as horny and likes sex. I would classify her as an absolute sexual tigress.

They have two kids and have overcome a lot. I hope they can make it but they are struggling now.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Dazedandconfused57! said:


> Imagine a young man who is fit but not in an underwear model way, and pleasant enough looking overall, but not someone women stare at. And let's say he's sexual but not what you'd consider sexual, and he somehow knows this. What would you advise him is his best way forward regarding relationships and sex?


If I understand the question right....

Good looking guy, likes sex, but isn't super highly sexual, seeks woman.

I would say you want to go for what feels like the same "vibe" sexually.

So if she is pushing directions that you are not enthusiastic about, this may mean she is more sexual than you are. If she is more into seduction and you like that vibe, follow that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I am considering coming around to your thinking because it really might fit this couple that is very close to us.
> 
> I would classify him as horny and likes sex. I would classify her as an absolute sexual tigress.
> 
> They have two kids and have overcome a lot. I hope they can make it but they are struggling now.


My experience, men like this cannot handle a tigress and she will not be fulfilled.

BUT....maybe there's some way to get him to at least reach half way, and her to reach down half way.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

IDK, I just think maintaining a healthy LTR is hard fn work. There are so many things that could go wrong that have nothing to do with sex per se, but will have a negative impact on your sex life nonetheless. I also think the idea of marriage is still too ingrained in society (as much as I am a huge believer in marriage, the reality is it is just not for everyone, and there is nothing wrong with that).


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> My experience, men like this cannot handle a tigress and she will not be fulfilled.
> 
> BUT....maybe there's some way to get him to at least reach half way, and her to reach down half way.


LoL! Maybe armed with some of this information, they might be able to make more informed choices.

I have been coaching this guy for over 10 years and he has improved in a lot of areas but she is in a state.

Last time we visited she was looking at me like a steak and apologized when Mrs. C noticed it. We are very close and open with each other. My friend has lusted for Mrs. C sometimes and we don't sweat it but I have been making a serious mistake as I have been attempting to get this guy up to my game level and he just doesn't have the equipment.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! Maybe armed with some of this information, they might be able to make more informed choices.
> 
> I have been coaching this guy for over 10 years and he has improved in a lot of areas but she is in a state.
> 
> Last time we visited she was looking at me like a steak and apologized when Mrs. C noticed it. We are very close and open with each other. My friend has lusted for Mrs. C sometimes and we don't sweat it but I have been making a serious mistake as I have been attempting to get this guy up to my game level and he just doesn't have the equipment.


Of course he doesn't, and he doesn't even want to get to that level. His wife wants him to apparently. It is not coming from within himself.

It actually will take him quite a lot of effort to even come close.

However....could he at least get in good physical shape? I have found that if I'm with a less sexual man, that if he at least has a rockin' good body I can still have fun.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> But you see....I also left.
> 
> Because I'm so highly sexual, that that situation would never have worked for me (I stayed over 10 years though). That was 9 years too many, but kids and all.
> 
> ...


Sorry... I had not yet heard, or had forgotten, about the young pregnancy. That can change the calculus, especially in years gone by. 

But I'm still somewhat at a loss. Your previous post made it sound like there's some sort of magic mechanism by which highly sexual people don't even notice nonsexual people, let alone enter into a relationship with them. you still managed to get pretty far down the relationship stream with this guy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> She is far superior in both appetite and ability. @Faithful Wife has a model that fits this couple far better than my own and facing a possibly *ugly truth* might help them in some ways.


I still don't get why you think it is an ugly truth.

Perhaps you still think that your sex life and the way it is - - is superior to others and how they are?

See, I do keep trying to advocate for all the different types of sex drives. There is nothing "wrong" with someone who is LD. And they are usually happy if they are well matched. And when HD people try to make it sound like LD people are just making excuses or that they are somehow the "wrong" one....I just see a mismatch where the HD is not aware of how sexual dynamics work.

People want to be how they are and they do not want to be changed.

So HD's with HD's, get along quite well.

LD's with LD's do as well.

But when you get to HD and LD...then each always thinks "gee I wish I could just be how I am and have them be happy" and at the same time they think "I wish they would change".

If instead they could think....oh wow! So we will NEVER actually be a match? So we can forget about that and just focus on how we can maybe be a partial match when we want to be, or focus on how we can lovingly move on to find a better match.

I feel like you think that LD people need to change. Maybe I am wrong.

Your guy is LD and he does not need to change, but if he wants to make his wife happy, he will have to make some herculean efforts to appear to be different than he is.

It may be worth it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I still don't get why you think it is an ugly truth.
> 
> Perhaps you still think that your sex life and the way it is - - is superior to others and how they are?
> 
> See, I do keep trying to advocate for all the different types of sex drives. There is nothing "wrong" with someone who is LD. And they are usually happy if they are well matched. And when HD people try to make it sound like LD people are just making excuses or that they are somehow the "wrong" one....I just see a mismatch where the HD is not aware of how sexual dynamics work.


Yes. This.



> People want to be how they are and they do not want to be changed.
> 
> So HD's with HD's, get along quite well.
> 
> ...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Of course he doesn't, and he doesn't even want to get to that level. His wife wants him to apparently. It is not coming from within himself.
> 
> It actually will take him quite a lot of effort to even come close.
> 
> However....could he at least get in good physical shape? I have found that if I'm with a less sexual man, that if he at least has a rockin' good body I can still have fun.


He has always been athletic. He has had limited improvement from weightlifting and he is hung like a damn donkey if that isn't TMI.


But he is a fairly passive nerd. He also doesn't seem to have an ounce of natural game.

I do believe he lacks the natural aggression to really get a serious hot body. She does appreciate his body at least. There is still some attraction but I'm putting different templates into play, yours to be precise, and it really fits them. I can't help seeing many of the problems they have had over the years with new eyes and your template fits far better than my own.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Sorry... I had not yet heard, or had forgotten, about the young pregnancy. That can change the calculus, especially in years gone by.
> 
> But I'm still somewhat at a loss. Your previous post made it sound like there's some sort of magic mechanism by which highly sexual people don't even notice nonsexual people, let alone enter into a relationship with them. you still managed to get pretty far down the relationship stream with this guy.


No, Rocky. I never looked at him like a sexual match for me. He was just a cute guy who I worked with who hung around my desk and eventually asked me to lunch and sometimes we would get high together after work. There was never any idea of relationships or any of that. And I also did not pick him out and say "oh, there's the guy who is going to rock my world".

He already had a young daughter from a previous marriage. She and I bonded quite quickly. He and I were just dating. The sex was never, and I mean never, good for me. I realized right away that I'd have to teach him everything and that he also wouldn't be able to keep up. I was correct, but I tried anyway.

If I had not become pregnant, we would not have dated more than 6 months. And during that 6 months when I wasn't pregnant, I never once was mistaken that this guy would be one of "those guys".

So don't get it wrong...I knew what I was in there with and I knew it from the moment I met.

In fact, the utter correctness by which I assessed him on first sight was one of the ways I realized I have sexdar.

My sexdar told me immediately this guy wasn't very sexual. But he was cute, we had a good laugh now and then, and I dated him casually. Until......THUD. Have a baby! You're welcome! :laugh:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> It probably falls into the category she talked about where someone is aware.
> 
> Awareness is probably a key element and falls into her "sexdar" theory that I find charming and probably accurate.
> 
> ...


I'm curious as to what exactly we're talking about with regard to awareness. Is it self awareness? Or is it awareness of your partner? I'm guessing both are prerequisites for this sexual screening mechanism to engage. 

Although in my case (and many from my generation I suspect), it still wouldn't have. While not particularly experienced, I was certainly aware that I was a highly sexual person by nature (not merely horny by virtue of my youth). I was also certain my wife (to be) was not overly sexual. So I checked both those boxes of awareness. However, as was common back in those days (and still seems to be to a degree today as well), I bought into the traditional notion that women aren't inherently sexual... so the fact that my wife (to be) could get really frisky once in a while had me thinking this was gonna' be as wild as I could (safely) hope for--(I was also taught both in the home and by society that overly sexual women were aberrant and definitely not to be trusted). So my programming overrode my awareness. 

I genuinely hope we as a society are rapidly shedding all this BS baggage. It helps nobody and hurts many.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I still don't get why you think it is an ugly truth.
> 
> Perhaps you still think that your sex life and the way it is - - is superior to others and how they are?
> 
> ...


It is ugly to me personally. Not people and how they are. The thought that sexuality really might be more limited in some people.

Do give me some room on this as I have never accepted it and I am still trying to work this into a working world view.

My friend likes sexual frequency as much, almost, as his wife. She is just a hell of a lot better at it and needs way more in the way of quality.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> No, Rocky. I never looked at him like a sexual match for me. He was just a cute guy who I worked with who hung around my desk and eventually asked me to lunch and sometimes we would get high together after work. There was never any idea of relationships or any of that. And I also did not pick him out and say "oh, there's the guy who is going to rock my world".
> 
> He already had a young daughter from a previous marriage. She and I bonded quite quickly. He and I were just dating. The sex was never, and I mean never, good for me. I realized right away that I'd have to teach him everything and that he also wouldn't be able to keep up. I was correct, but I tried anyway.
> 
> ...


Okay.
I guess I'm still kind of stuck on the oddness (at least to me) of having sex with someone you're sexdar was warning you about in the first place, and especially after doing it and finding the sex to be unsatisfying. Hope that doesn't sound like shaming as that is not my intent. It's just a different thought process/action sequence from what I can grok.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> It is ugly to me personally. Not people and how they are. The thought that sexuality really might be more limited in some people.
> 
> Do give me some room on this as I have never accepted it and I am still trying to work this into a working world view.
> 
> My friend likes sexual frequency as much, almost, as his wife. She is just a hell of a lot better at it and needs way more in the way of quality.


I even think "good at it" feels wrong. DH and I just clicked in a way that said -- hey yeah we're the same. But it is not like we have some weird and magic skill. Adventurous to be sure.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm curious as to what exactly we're talking about with regard to awareness. Is it self awareness? Or is it awareness of your partner? I'm guessing both are prerequisites for this sexual screening mechanism to engage.
> 
> Although in my case (and many from my generation I suspect), it still wouldn't have. While not particularly experienced, I was certainly aware that I was a highly sexual person by nature (not merely horny by virtue of my youth). I was also certain my wife (to be) was not overly sexual. So I checked both those boxes of awareness. However, as was common back in those days (and still seems to be to a degree today as well), I bought into the traditional notion that women aren't inherently sexual... so the fact that my wife (to be) could get really frisky once in a while had me thinking this was gonna' be as wild as I could (safely) hope for--(I was also taught both in the home and by society that overly sexual women were aberrant and definitely not to be trusted). So my programming overrode my awareness.
> 
> I genuinely hope we as a society are rapidly shedding all this BS baggage. It helps nobody and hurts many.


Awareness of self and others is the "sexdar" FW refers to. If her theory is accurate, I have well developed sexdar and lower drive women never even registered with me. That is a distinct possibility.

I didn't "find out" women weren't sexual creatures until I started going to church in my twenties.:wink2:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> But I'm still somewhat at a loss. Your previous post made it sound like there's some sort of magic mechanism by which highly sexual people don't even notice nonsexual people, let alone enter into a relationship with them. you still managed to get pretty far down the relationship stream with this guy.


Now to address this from a different angle....

If I go out and my intention is to find a guy who is highly sexual and will rock my world, I guarantee you I'll find him.

And I will know the difference between him and a guy who just really WANTS to rock my world but actually can't because he doesn't have it in him.

On the other hand, if I'm looking for a relationship and I'm ok with having a "good" sex life (ie: I would accept a stellar partner even if the sex wasn't the best it can be for me), then I will talk to and consider men who I already know are not as sexual as I am, but I am highly physically attracted to them, and they have other things that will work well for me.

The mechanism isn't magic, but I don't think LD people make quite the same types of looks, movements, expressions, and other actions toward each other as HD people do. So LD people may not ever get the chance to see what I mean, because they themselves aren't going to do it.

Basically, a lot has to do with the way we look at each other. And LD people may think this sounds dumb and classless. But HD people make eyes with people they are strongly attracted to, and the ones who "ping" you back are usually HD also.

This is a simplification and there are lots of variances. But it usually boils down to how active people are with their eyes.

Example: I have known HD men who are in committed relationships. I still know they are HD even though they never do or say anything inappropriate. But I can still see their eyes and they can see mine, and there's just something that we do in that moment that we both know what it means.

I never linger my eyes with a committed man like this, even if I'm attracted to him. Because he may or may not be a man with integrity, and I don't want him to think I may be down for some side action. Not my bag, baby.

I realize this all sounds silly. When I get this specific about it, people get on my case and then I sound like an idiot. But this is what it is. It is a visceral thing, an automatic thing. I have spent my lifetime learning how to be in control of it so that I can utilize it for my own best sex life.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Okay.
> I guess I'm still kind of stuck on the oddness (at least to me) of having sex with someone you're sexdar was warning you about in the first place, and especially after doing it and finding the sex to be unsatisfying. Hope that doesn't sound like shaming as that is not my intent. It's just a different thought process/action sequence from what I can grok.


Because I liked him on a "hey this is fun" level and I had no intention of keeping him.

The sex was "meh" but a lot of other things were fun and in my mind, it wasn't going to last forever so the meh sex was not a deal breaker. To me, there was never going to be a deal one way or the other.

Let's just say the sex wasn't SO BAD that I ran for the hills. It was just meh, not OMFG AHHHHHHH!!!!!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Now to address this from a different angle....
> 
> If I go out and my intention is to find a guy who is highly sexual and will rock my world, I guarantee you I'll find him.
> 
> ...


And when this is TRIED by someone who is just playin' -- like TRYING to make eyes, it comes off as creepy to me Big Time.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I even think "good at it" feels wrong. DH and I just clicked in a way that said -- hey yeah we're the same. But it is not like we have some weird and magic skill. Adventurous to be sure.


Trust my assessment. I have known him for over twenty years as one of my closest friends. He is very bread and butter, in and out, basic mechanics oriented. He really enjoys her abilities but doesn't seem capable of approaching the same level.

He has definitely improved through a lot of work but it like pulling teeth to get him to understand what comes naturally to his wife.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Because I liked him on a "hey this is fun" level and I had no intention of keeping him.
> 
> The sex was "meh" but a lot of other things were fun and in my mind, it wasn't going to last forever so the meh sex was not a deal breaker. To me, there was never going to be a deal one way or the other.
> 
> Let's just say the sex wasn't SO BAD that I ran for the hills. It was just meh, not OMFG AHHHHHHH!!!!!


You make me laugh. It's great you can keep a light heart about such serious matters.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Trust my assessment. I have known him for over twenty years as one of my closest friends. He is very bread and butter, in and out, basic mechanics oriented. He really enjoys her abilities but doesn't seem capable of approaching the same level.
> 
> He has definitely improved through a lot of work but it like pulling teeth to get him to understand what comes naturally to his wife.


Boy would I love to hear what those conversations look like. I want to take him for a ride just so I can understand. Well. Rhetorically.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Awareness of self and others is the "sexdar" FW refers to. If her theory is accurate, I have well developed sexdar and lower drive women never even registered with me. That is a distinct possibility.
> 
> I didn't "find out" women weren't sexual creatures until I started going to church in my twenties.:wink2:


I didn't think of it this way. But the knowing was something I had and thought I was wrong about. I always thought I was wrong about everything.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Now to address this from a different angle....
> 
> If I go out and my intention is to find a guy who is highly sexual and will rock my world, I guarantee you I'll find him.
> 
> ...


No, none of that sounds silly to me. I follow it all quite well. And I agree; there are mannerisms and methods of self expression that are effective at transmitting a relative height of innate sexuality.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No, none of that sounds silly to me. I follow it all quite well. And I agree; there are mannerisms and methods of self expression that are effective at transmitting a relative height of innate sexuality.


And there are LOTS of guys who THINK they are ... cuz guy horny and wants to stick his **** in that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Boy would I love to hear what those conversations look like. I want to take him for a ride just so I can understand. Well. Rhetorically.


I sometimes wished our theology allowed room for limited "instructions" but we have to work with conversation.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No, none of that sounds silly to me. I follow it all quite well. And I agree; there are mannerisms and methods of self expression that are effective at transmitting a relative height of innate sexuality.


And we are not doing it to "get attention". We are actually broadcasting our sexuality across the room. Pheromones and all kinds of other things are involved. We may or may not mean to be broadcasting so loudly...but what I've observed is that the LD people don't pick up on the broadcast anyway.

There are of course attention seekers, and people who are just plain weird and overly sexual about everything.

Those are very few compared to the ones I'm talking about.

LD people just do not "ping" me back, ever. That's how I know.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> And there are LOTS of guys who THINK they are ... cuz guy horny and wants to stick his **** in that.


Right. And they have no clue that just this alone isn't going to be good enough for her.

And then he calls her LD.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> There is an overall shaming of people who don't conform and get into LTR's and then do everything they can to stay in that LTR.
> 
> That seeps out in your posts.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not really opposed to divorce. I'm on my third marriage (no kids or houses with the first two) and my Dad was married 4 times (I certainly agreed with his getting divorced from numbers 2 and 3 (lived happily forever after with the 4th, I was too young to have an opinion on the 1st).

I'm not so much a fan of marriage as I just can't see a good way to raise children outside of the bounds of a committed relationship.

I do think that there's more desire for committed relationships from women than for men, I could be wrong about that but I don't think I am. 

I also think there's more desire for sex from men than from women (although most women truly enjoy sex, if it's done right).

I do think that many marriages can be improved if both parties claim to love each other and are genuinely interested in their partner's happiness.

I think that an effort should be made to try and improve an existing relationship as opposed to just casting it aside and looking for the next one (only looking at it from the perspective of the happiness of both partners).

I don't care about whether men do or do not get sex. If in a relationship, I often post about what I think might help the men be happy (I don't often post where it's the woman complaining about a sexless marriage because I truly have no idea what she might do to improve the situation).

I think a lot of otherwise good marriages could be saved and made happy for both partners. A good deal of sex problems really seem to be due to men and women being under the influence of bad ideas (women want sex every bit as much as men, sex isn't an important part of a marriage, it's normal for sex to decrease after you get married, if my wife loses her libido it's because of me, if my wife doesn't initiate as much as me, she must not be attracted to me, if my wife has regular orgasms she'll want sex all the time, women thinking that they must be "broken" because they don't feel horny, people should only have sex if they are both aroused spontaneously at the same time, etc, etc).

I'm concerned about society because we need to keep reproducing if we want to survive. 

Relationships between men and women have been hit by a massive number of changes over the last 50 years, things that have worked for thousands of years are now becoming irrelevant. 

I'm not really concerned with the guys. I think they're being misguided as to what to do if they want to attract women, but that's not my mission. 

Low status guys who decide that it's not worth it and decide to just bail and play video games in their parent's basement may very well be making a rational choice based on their prospects (although I am sympathetic to the parents whose basement they continue to occupy). If a guy has women hanging all over him, I have no problem with him doing whatever makes him happy. Sure, I would have liked to have had wild monkey sex with super models, but I would really have liked to be a billionaire with a different Ferrari for every day of the week, but I managed to live without that either. 

So we look at the guys and sneer at the losers when they're doing relatively fine. They're either getting laid like tile or having fun playing video games. They're not knocking themselves out working 12 hour shifts at the steel mill 6 days a week just to support a family. What's not to like?

I'm fine, my daughter got lucky right out of the box and I think I can help guide my sons through the shoals.

But, I don't think this is going to work out well for society and women in particular. 

And I do think there are some things that women could be aware of such as: It's possible that you may be happily married and living the dream but experience a loss of libido through no fault of your own or your husband, so it's something to consider and be prepared for.

I just see so many crappy marriages and, many times, they're savable. But if they can't be improved or one partner isn't willing to work on it, then, by all means, get divorced. It worked for me. Twice.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> And there are LOTS of guys who THINK they are ... cuz guy horny and wants to stick his **** in that.


I'm sure. That's why I was careful to specify "innate" sexuality to distinguish it from garden variety horniness which I think we all agree are two very different things.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> And we are not doing it to "get attention". We are actually broadcasting our sexuality across the room. Pheromones and all kinds of other things are involved. We may or may not mean to be broadcasting so loudly...but what I've observed is that the LD people don't pick up on the broadcast anyway.
> 
> There are of course attention seekers, and people who are just plain weird and overly sexual about everything.
> 
> ...


Never thought of it the way you put it. I have experienced it for sure. I have never done anything on purpose.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm concerned about society because we need to keep reproducing if we want to survive.


I guess I just can't relate to this. It seems like catastrophe shopping. I don't think about things that to me seems so impossible that they are irrelevant. (More likely we will all die from our own ignorance and what we do to the earth, in which case, probably better to stop having babies, yeah?)

But I do like bantering with you, and thank you for your long response.

If in doubt, I will ask you what you meant by something rather than assume you are placing the blame for the end of the human race on women. :smile2:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Never thought of it the way you put it. I have experienced it for sure. I have never done anything on purpose.


I did not used to do it on purpose, it just came naturally.

Then I started doing it on purpose when I was amused by it and wanted to test how accurate I am.

And then I started doing it on purpose to save time in dating. :grin2:


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

What is this book's basis for the conclusion that there is a causal connection between female autonomy/non-monogamy and desire?

I'm really wary of both over-simplification and over-complication when it comes to this topic. Anecdotal, I know, but so many of my wife's friends are worn out from needy kids, suffering loss of identity, and their husbands simply don't engage them in the way they need, but they claim to be in "happy" marriages because they have the perfect houses, kids, and their husbands are great on paper. Meanwhile, I hear from the husbands that they haven't had sex during the current administration. One could easily make the conclusion that there is a female biological or evolutionary explanation going on here (and I wouldn't discount that), but given how many follow the predictable progression for a marriage and a family, how much of this loss of attraction is better or also explained by basic relationship failings repeated across society.

I get that human sexuality is complex, but sometimes I think we make it overly so. When I was single, I took care of my business, I dressed like I cared (or didn't), had fun, and female attention generally followed. I wouldn't say that I was naturally a ladies man, but I quickly figured it out. When I got married, I found someone with whom I was compatible both sexually and emotionally, and the sex has kept getting better. I've kept myself in shape, interesting, and I romance my wife. Admittedly, our sex life took a temporary dive due to kids, my wife's health issues, and her perceived loss of identity, but we identified and worked through each of those things and didn't resign ourselves to the path of least resistance.

Information is great, but it just seems like it's easy for some to use it to either make sweeping gender generalizations or get overly analytical because both are easier than owning responsibility and putting in the work that a relationship takes. Which takes me back to the original question of "what possible reason could there be for men who value sex to enter into committed relationships with women?" None, if you're expecting a return with little to no investment and no measure of risk. But if an LTR is right for you, you pick a good one, and you put in the effort (to yourself and the relationship), I think the odds of ending up with something immensely more profound than NSA sex are pretty good. But who knows, talk to me in another 15 years and maybe I'll have something different to say.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Never thought of it the way you put it. I have experienced it for sure. I have never done anything on purpose.


Was also going to say....sometimes someone pings me back but I can tell that they weren't really aware they were doing it. If that makes sense.

There are the more shy/coy types and the more wolf/aggressive types.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> And we are not doing it to "get attention". We are actually broadcasting our sexuality across the room. Pheromones and all kinds of other things are involved. We may or may not mean to be broadcasting so loudly...but what I've observed is that the LD people don't pick up on the broadcast anyway.
> 
> There are of course attention seekers, and people who are just plain weird and overly sexual about everything.
> 
> ...


Another reason this need not be thought of as some unique kind of magic... at the risk of sounding even more silly, I'll say that I believe that this kind of awareness isn't limited to sexuality. That if we are able to disengage ego and truly be attentive to others, they will signal all sorts of thing beyond just sexuality such as relative levels of empathy, awareness, propensity for violence (even if being peaceful at the moment), etc.

There are so many continuua along which we all exist and those who are going to be successful in relationships are able to tune into each. As you said about your unsuccessful marriage, there were other continuua along which you were well suited. It takes time to find out just how far mismatches along any continuua may be stretched, and which are legitimate deal breakers.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Another reason this need not be thought of as some unique kind of magic... at the risk of sounding even more silly, I'll say that I believe that this kind of awareness isn't limited to sexuality. That if we are able to disengage ego and truly be attentive to others, they will signal all sorts of thing beyond just sexuality such as relative levels of empathy, awareness, propensity for violence (even if being peaceful at the moment), etc.
> 
> There are so many continuua along which we all exist and those who are going to be successful in relationships are able to tune into each. As you said about your unsuccessful marriage, there were other continuua along which you were well suited. *It takes time to find out just how far mismatches along any continuua may be stretched*, and which are legitimate deal breakers.


Well...I want to caution about the notion about my first marriage, though.

I was not testing him out and giving him time, and I should not have. I got pregnant and then decided "ok, I guess this is my fate". 

What I should have done and would have done had I not become pregnant was stop seeing him and find someone compatible.

I do not think people should spend any time trying to make something out of nothing. Remember, what you are describing in my case is a very short term relationship where neither actually intended to pursue an LTR. We should NOT have pushed to make it work, we should have said "nice hanging with you, that was fun, have a nice life" and not had babies and marriage.

It did not take me any time to know that this would not be stretched, that I would never be happy with it. What I was doing was burying my desire to get out. Until I got out.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well...I want to caution about the notion about my first marriage, though.
> 
> I was not testing him out and giving him time, and I should not have. I got pregnant and then decided "ok, I guess this is my fate".
> 
> ...



I surmised all that. I was just speaking generally as to the idea of sexdar and broadening that to include the intuitive ability to detect who someone is in other areas aside from sexuality. 

We don't find people who are a perfect match along all lines, so it's always a tradeoff of some sort. I was just pointing out that, in a general sense, many folks aren't aware how to tell the differences in the first place... and of those who are, they're not always going to know how wide the gulf can be and have the relationship still thrive, or even survive--especially when they're young and inexperienced!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm sure. That's why I was careful to specify "innate" sexuality to distinguish it from garden variety horniness which I think we all agree are two very different things.


I use "highly sexual" because to me, some people may think "innate" is the plain old garden variety hornyness.

There really isn't a term for what we are getting at. It is not all about libido, but it includes libido. 

I used to try to tackle this subject in my blog. I called it the sexual proclivity scale, and where you land on it would point to how sexual you are.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I do think that word 'nuance' that FW used earlier is a pretty big factor. 

I came to be a big believer in the concept of fostering a dynamic in a relationship. And lots of couples foster negative dynamics without ever being aware of it. For example, the 'gatekeeper' sexual dynamic. Odds are, nobody's sexual relationship starts there ... but lots of LTR end up there. 

But not Conan's or a few others here. I'd argue that is a direct result of fostering a dynamic whereby sex never becomes a bargaining chip, but instead a means of further bonding and commitment to meeting the needs of your partner, or one self in case of HD partners.

There are other factors in terms of sexual dynamics. Again from the personal experience archive, I've pointed out before that I've always had DE. At the beginning of a sexual relationship women thought this was great ... but six months to a year later? The grins and giggles and enthusiasm could turn into questioning looks and "Are you close yet?" 

Point being that perspectives are always subject to change.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I surmised all that. I was just speaking generally as to the idea of sexdar and broadening that to include the intuitive ability to detect who someone is in other areas aside from sexuality.


To be honest, I'm sure there could be a lot one could get out of studying body language.

But for me, sexdar is really only useful for gauging the sexuality of someone in my immediate vicinity. It has a vibration to it.

I'm sure I could maybe pick out which of a line up may be more likely to be shy, or a criminal, or more or less honest...there are probably cues that we all employ to pull up this kind of assessment (whether we are correct or not).

Those things don't really have a vibe to me. Or at least they don't at the sexdar level.

Maybe I don't understand.

I'm just getting confused because there's really only one thing my sexdar tells me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Deejo said:


> There are other factors in terms of sexual dynamics. Again from the personal experience archive, I've pointed out before that I've always had DE. At the beginning of a sexual relationship women thought this was great ... but six months to a year later? The grins and giggles and enthusiasm could turn into questioning looks and "Are you close yet?"



Well right...because here I was hoping it meant you would be banging my brains out for 3 hours, but it actually meant you have to stare at the same spot on the ceiling and not allow any distractions for 40 minutes straight!!

:grin2:

Nah, just being silly.

But honestly I would not assume I'd be getting my brains banged out for 3 hours....I would assume that I would have to do a bit more work, and that I would have to be very patient.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> If someone had told you, would you have believed them?


Yes I think so. I didn't 'propose' btw. 

If she had told me, YES .


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I will focus on the first part of your paragraph and the point it makes.
> 
> I have absolutely noticed as well as researched to back up my observation that women are attracted to men who have a life that doesn't really include hunting them. There are at least two points I believe to be critical as it relates to sexual and overall attraction.
> 
> ...


You make a good point. 

When I worked in a club one could observe the women gravitate to those who were disinterested, and aloof.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well right...because here I was hoping it meant you would be banging my brains out for 3 hours, but it actually meant you have to stare at the same spot on the ceiling and not allow any distractions for 40 minutes straight!!
> 
> :grin2:
> 
> ...


No, you were pretty much right on about getting your brains banged out for 3 hours. Which I had no issue with. 

But ...
women would (despite my best efforts in explaining) decide that the issue was me not being into them enough to get off.

I did date a few highly sexual women that were selfish enough (I say that as a compliment) that they counted on me to tell them what I needed, else they were going to take what they wanted. In my experience, that was rare, and pretty amazing.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

red oak said:


> You make a good point.
> 
> When I worked in a club one could observe the women gravitate to those who were disinterested, and aloof.


Umm....well, ok but...have you seen Conan's picture? It is on his profile.

Unless you are talking about women who "gravitated" toward men who look like Conan, then I'm not sure the aloof had anything to do with it. Are you sure it wasn't because they had biceps the size of her thigh? Men seem to miss this when they are looking at other men.

For me personally...highly sexual woman here....there is no amount of "aloof" that would make me horny.

So the women you describe very likely are fairly to extremely LD if they are hanging around aloof, disinterested men.

I know guys tend to try to make something out of things like this....but I'm sorry. The aloof part may work on one particular woman who already has a crush on him (aloof works quite well on guys this way, too). But as for who gravitates toward each other because they are actually both highly sexual, at no time will there be any aloofing going on. It will be all deliberate, intent, right toward you and I'm coming to get ya, type of vibe.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Deejo said:


> No, you were pretty much right on about getting your brains banged out for 3 hours. Which I had no issue with.
> 
> But ...
> women would (despite my best efforts in explaining) decide that the issue was me not being into them enough to get off.
> ...


My default assumption is always that a man can't go for 3 hours at my level. Usually I'm right.

When I hear otherwise I'm like (bat-bat my eyes) "tell me more".


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Umm....well, ok but...have you seen Conan's picture? It is on his profile.
> 
> Unless you are talking about women who "gravitated" toward men who look like Conan, then I'm not sure the aloof had anything to do with it. Are you sure it wasn't because they had biceps the size of her thigh? Men seem to miss this when they are looking at other men.
> 
> ...


Could aloof guys also be opportunities to practice a little hunting?

I just see the attraction in the empowerment to hunt. I can't recall the book where I read it but there have been some experiments that showed women hunted just fine and enjoyed it if the circumstances were right.

Obviously women probably aren't hunting men they aren't attracted to.:grin2:

My arms are thicker than Mrs. C's thighs and thanks for the acknowledgment!:smile2:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> To be honest, I'm sure there could be a lot one could get out of studying body language.
> 
> But for me, sexdar is really only useful for gauging the sexuality of someone in my immediate vicinity. It has a vibration to it.
> 
> ...


The ability to detect the other things would not be sexdar, but it works much the same. If one is in tune to those things, they can be detected just as someone with high sexual proclivity (I like your term) can detect that in others.

My wife has an astonishing ability to detect a lack of trustworthiness in others, but that's definitely not a case of like souls finding each other as she is likely the most trustworthy person on the planet. She has incredible integrity radar. (Which is no small part of me succeeding where so many others had failed)


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Could aloof guys also be opportunities to practice a little hunting?
> 
> I just see the attraction in the empowerment to hunt. I can't recall the book where I read it but there have been some experiments that showed women hunted just fine and enjoyed it if the circumstances were right.
> 
> ...


Let me make sure I understand here....

When women went on the hunt for you, were you aloof?

Or were you only aloof if you weren't attracted to her?

Or maybe only aloof if you already knew her and kind of didn't like her?


....

I think there is a quite a distance between aloof and just guy who carries himself well and isn't slavering over women.

But then, some of us are really not insulted by the slavering anyway.

I think the aloof part is a red herring. You are describing some other dynamic at play and from the outside, one of them appears to be aloof.

.....


Perhaps the word aloof is being used differently than I understand it. To me, if you act aloof toward someone, there is a very deliberate reason you are doing it.

Aloofness never comes into play when two HD's are making their way toward each other after that initial sexdar ping.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The ability to detect the other things would not be sexdar, but it works much the same. If one is in tune to those things, they can be detected just as someone with high sexual proclivity (I like your term) can detect that in others.
> 
> My wife has an astonishing ability to detect a lack of trustworthiness in others, but that's definitely not a case of like souls finding each other as she is likely the most trustworthy person on the planet. She has incredible integrity radar. (Which is no small part of me succeeding where so many others had failed)


Yes gotcha. Integrity radar, intelligence radar, and a few other dars would certainly be helpful in picking a mate, and also just picking friends.

I can always tell who is, has or will cheat. It is an offshoot of sexdar.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Also @ConanHub....I'm not sure I'm on the same page with the hunting.

I mean, I love being able to be silly and joke around with people and act like I'm literally hunting. Maybe even say "watch this girls!" and go talk to some hot dude or whatever. And on the sidelines I am mentally deciding which ones are delicious enough to eat.

But this is all just fun and games. Once the real fun starts, he is going to have to hunt me.

What I do in response to his hunting me is remain receptive to his hunt, give him a little snare once in awhile, and make the chase worth it and fun.

Otherwise, in my experience men who don't get with you unless you hunt them down probably weren't that into you, and you should wait to see if he hunts you before you go down that road. Otherwise, you may end up with a man who isn't that into you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The ability to detect the other things would not be sexdar, but it works much the same. If one is in tune to those things, they can be detected just as someone with high sexual proclivity (I like your term) can detect that in others.
> 
> My wife has an astonishing ability to detect a lack of trustworthiness in others, but that's definitely not a case of like souls finding each other as she is likely the most trustworthy person on the planet. She has incredible integrity radar. (Which is no small part of me succeeding where so many others had failed)


This is cool and I agree.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Let me make sure I understand here....
> 
> When women went on the hunt for you, were you aloof?
> 
> ...


I probably wouldn't use the word aloof. Maybe just the term "not actively hunting" would be more accurate.

I am very easily outgoing and I engage in conversation smoothly so if approached, someone is getting acknowledged and a healthy dose of charm. I absolutely agree that womenz don't hunt the same way men generally do. Maybe fishing or baiting are better terms.

I tend to forget my appearance as well so I have a blind spot bias built in.

There were probably a lot of ladies just curious or looking for a quick adventure to see what they thought.

I have been approached very boldly on several occasions so maybe it is biceps fever! LoL!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Another thought on “aloof”...

Although I am highly sexual, I’m also introverted. So I tend to keep my pings outward testing for interest on a limited basis, and I do it in a way that most people aren’t going to notice. 

So let’s say a guy and I ping each other from across a crowded room and we catch eyes. No one else will likely see this, especially in my case, like I said, I’m introverted and I generally dislike talking to strangers.

But there will be no doubt in the guys mind that I pinged him. If we are on the same level like that, it doesn’t take more than a glance.

If he then approached me, it could definitely appear from the outside that I am aloof and he is taking some huge chance in talking to me.

Between he and I however, I would have been waiting for him to approach me and he would know that from that one simple glance.

Sometimes if you see people approach someone, this glance has already taken place, even though to you it looked like a total cold call.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I probably wouldn't use the word aloof. Maybe just the term "not actively hunting" would be more accurate.
> 
> I am very easily outgoing and I engage in conversation smoothly so if approached, someone is getting acknowledged and a healthy dose of charm. I absolutely agree that womenz don't hunt the same way men generally do. Maybe fishing or baiting are better terms.
> 
> ...


Biceps definitely make women grabby and I wish more men would just pump theirs up instead of whining about how shallow we women must be to feel that way. :grin2:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Every time ya all talk about hunting, I just can't take it serious and picture this ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I always think of the one where the boy cat pulls a girl cat across his lap with gusto and plants a bunch of kisses all over her face. The girl kitty just holds totally still and lets him do this to her, except she has a huge smile on her face. 

I’m sure someone knows which one I’m talking about. I can imagine the girl kitty being the one to dip and kiss him too, that also works. In that case she maybe can’t physically do it but she can assert herself on him and get him to comply in good nature.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Biceps definitely make women grabby and I wish more men would just pump theirs up instead of whining about how shallow we women must be to feel that way. :grin2:


...as if those same guys didn't have their own equally shallow preferences. Sheesh.

The irony is that its actually easier, at least by natural means for a guy to enhance his obvious guy things. Barring silicone, the boobs you got is the boobs you got, but any guy can beef up his biceps. Now not everyone has the DNA to match Conan, but with as little as 30min in the gym 3x/week is enough to get any guy to outshine 90% of our slovenly Male population. Yet these same guys will complain that they cant date Sofia Vergara while they spend all their free time doing nothing more strenuous than playing thimbsies with a game controller.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. And they have no clue that just this alone isn't going to be good enough for her.


Some of us know quite well we will never be enough. The decent ones among us free her to find someone capable of being enough. The jerks among us lash her to the mast and aim the boat for the tallest waves. Fairly easy to avoid detection since few are willing to accuse their life partner of intentionally scuttling the boat. Well, at least before it becomes unmistakably clear. At which point it may be far too late to abandon ship.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ...as if those same guys didn't have their own equally shallow preferences. Sheesh.
> 
> The irony is that its actually easier, at least by natural means for a guy to enhance his obvious guy things. Barring silicone, the boobs you got is the boobs you got, but any guy can beef up his biceps. Now not everyone has the DNA to match Conan, but with as little as 30min in the gym 3x/week is enough to get any guy to outshine 90% of our slovenly Male population. Yet these same guys will complain that they cant date Sofia Vergara while they spend all their free time doing nothing more strenuous than playing thimbsies with a game controller.


I know!!!! It’s so easy for most men to improve their shoulders and arms, quickly and without much effort!

I’m always all about the puffy biceps and shoulders....nom nom.

And when I meet a guy who has great potential but just isn’t doing it, I’m like aw, what a loss of a great bod.

I mean, literally just losing 5-10 pounds, and work your arms and shoulders until you can do 30 push ups. If you are starting with a flabby belly and skinny arms, the change you make will be quite impressive. And it wouldn’t take more than a month or two.

And ok I don’t speak for all women. There are some who appreciate overall health and fitness more than biceps.

But those of us who loves the biceps are a lot louder and grabbier than the ones who don’t. >


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Some of us know quite well we will never be enough. The decent ones among us free her to find someone capable of being enough. The jerks among us lash her to the mast and aim the boat for the tallest waves. Fairly easy to avoid detection since few are willing to accuse their life partner of intentionally scuttling the boat. Well, at least before it becomes unmistakably clear. At which point it may be far too late to abandon ship.


I’m not going to join your self loathing. I think you have a very specific case. I don’t blame you or her. It’s a much tougher situation than I’ve ever lived through and I am in no position to judge.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ...as if those same guys didn't have their own equally shallow preferences. Sheesh.


Agreed. I was shallow. I got what I wanted. I also got what I deserved.



> The irony is that its actually easier, at least by natural means for a guy to enhance his obvious guy things. Barring silicone, the boobs you got is the boobs you got, but any guy can beef up his biceps. Now not everyone has the DNA to match Conan, but with as little as 30min in the gym 3x/week is enough to get any guy to outshine 90% of our slovenly Male population. Yet these same guys will complain that they cant date Sofia Vergara while they spend all their free time doing nothing more strenuous than playing thimbsies with a game controller.


Not sure this is factually true but certainly every guy should put in the work to see if it works. If it doesn't work with his current partner, it will probably work with someone else.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> Umm....well, ok but...have you seen Conan's picture? It is on his profile.
> 
> Unless you are talking about women who "gravitated" toward men who look like Conan, then I'm not sure the aloof had anything to do with it. Are you sure it wasn't because they had biceps the size of her thigh? Men seem to miss this when they are looking at other men.
> 
> ...


LOL.

I was no jock in high school, yet women were leaving notes in my locker, coming up to me with valentine cards, women I had never gone out with, nor was I interested. Not proud to say in a couple cases I made it clear I wasn't interested in ways which could have been much gentler. 

Top shape of my life I was 230# solid, and yes I had huge biceps. 
No more women flocked to me at that time compared to my 175 before that, or now.

I never chased a girl.

So what was my draw.

Eta: when I was younger I was told I was very handsome. I don't know just what I was told. So maybe that was the draw.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

red oak said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Umm....well, ok but...have you seen Conan's picture? It is on his profile.
> ...


Some men just have the mojo without the physique.

Or what you considered a normal physique at the time was actually a lovely young male body budding with new protrusions other than in yer pants.

Have you looked back at pictures of yourself? I’ve had lots of people describe themselves as plain or whatever when they were teens only to see their pictures and see an obvious knock out.

Almost all young people are beautiful.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Almost all young people are beautiful.


True much more for females than for males.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Almost all young people are beautiful.
> ...


No. Straight men think this and that’s part of why they don’t understand women’s sexuality. They assume that only what is feminine and catches their own eyes are what is in play in the wild. They are not programmed to notice how beautiful the other young bucks are to us.

The reason I say straight men think this is that gay men know exactly how beautiful the male body is.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> There are two different possible realities:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Can I ask: why is having or not having NSA sex in any way important? You can be in the top 1% of ****able men and marry someone who will later stop sleeping with you. I thought the topic is about LTR?
I never understood this; for me masturbation and NSA sex always meant pretty much same thing. I don’t consider the number of women one has under their belt as some sort of achievement. You usually end up with the one and then nsa or not nsa, 1%, 20%, 80% or whatever all becomes moot point. What am I missing ?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> That bolded misses the mark. Be your best self. If the things about yourself that you cling to aren't your best bits, then no, you won't have opportunities.



Your best self in whose eyes? Does you best self include levelling up in world of Warcraft? (Or whatever it is kids play these days). 


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,
I like you and your posts. They are smart and it is obvious that you are smart. 

So - here is a thought I have had bouncin round in my thick skull for near a decade, a thought that, til tonight I have never expressed.

1. Operant conditioning is universal for humans. Food, sex, sports, doesn’t matter, stimulus - response is an incredibly powerful behavioral driver. 
2. The concept of ‘she comes first’ is predicated on the idea that - post orgasm, the average man is worthless....

Problem with this is remarkably simple: the optimal sexual experience is the one where sex stops right after orgasm......

The whole premise of ‘she comes first’, is that otherwise she doesn’t come at all, because the post orgasm male is worthless....








Buddy400 said:


> The last thread started veering off topic and died out and I just found a new book on the topic, so....
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Untrue-Every...b44c297ffd610680c35d99173c6ca3&language=en_US
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> I don't see the "sexual shaming of women" stuff (I don't doubt that it's there, I just don't see it). I believe that the sexual shaming of women was something primarily done by women. I think women are overly sensitive about this topic.


Yep.





Buddy400 said:


> Yet, most men claim they would not be satisfied with their wives "just giving them sex".




I am usually fine with just taking it 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> The whole premise of ‘she comes first’, is that otherwise she doesn’t come at all, because the post orgasm male is worthless....



Only if he stumbled, fell down the stairs and bit off his tongue (and broke all his fingers). Which of course seems to happen 99% of the time, post-coitus 
Still....there are elbows, knees...where there’s a will, there’s an elbow, as we say in the bedroom.



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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> Your best self in whose eyes? Does you best self include levelling up in world of Warcraft? (Or whatever it is kids play these days).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In ones own heart and mind. It radiates.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> My default assumption is always that a man can't go for 3 hours at my level. Usually I'm right.
> 
> When I hear otherwise I'm like (bat-bat my eyes) "tell me more".


Well if it is straight up "banging" for 3 hours straight, count me out. A day and a half of play on play on play with all kinds of treats. I'm in! But yah - lot of guys actually get annoyed or hurt if you are still good to go after they are "done".


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I probably wouldn't use the word aloof. Maybe just the term "not actively hunting" would be more accurate.
> 
> I am very easily outgoing and I engage in conversation smoothly so if approached, someone is getting acknowledged and a healthy dose of charm. I absolutely agree that womenz don't hunt the same way men generally do. Maybe fishing or baiting are better terms.
> 
> I tend to forget my appearance as well so I have a blind spot bias built in.


Well you took your picture down, so I can't tell much about it! 

For me, looks are the first cue, but by no means the only.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I always think of the one where the boy cat pulls a girl cat across his lap with gusto and plants a bunch of kisses all over her face. The girl kitty just holds totally still and lets him do this to her, except she has a huge smile on her face.
> 
> I’m sure someone knows which one I’m talking about. I can imagine the girl kitty being the one to dip and kiss him too, that also works. In that case she maybe can’t physically do it but she can assert herself on him and get him to comply in good nature.


Nope. As soon as I read the first sentence, I thought of Pepe Le Pue and the cat who wants him to go away.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I always think of the one where the boy cat pulls a girl cat across his lap with gusto and plants a bunch of kisses all over her face. The girl kitty just holds totally still and lets him do this to her, except she has a huge smile on her face. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" ></a>
> ...


It’s not that cat.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I know!!!! It’s so easy for most men to improve their shoulders and arms, quickly and without much effort!
> 
> I’m always all about the puffy biceps and shoulders....nom nom.


Arms are nice. Pecs and quads for me.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ...as if those same guys didn't have their own equally shallow preferences. Sheesh.
> 
> The irony is that its actually easier, at least by natural means for a guy to enhance his obvious guy things. Barring silicone, the boobs you got is the boobs you got, but any guy can beef up his biceps. Now not everyone has the DNA to match Conan, but with as little as 30min in the gym 3x/week is enough to get any guy to outshine 90% of our slovenly Male population. Yet these same guys will complain that they cant date Sofia Vergara while they spend all their free time doing nothing more strenuous than playing thimbsies with a game controller.


From where I am looking, your average woman would just need to stay out of the ice cream and drop a couple of pounds. Or wait. That's me right now. Who just ate a bit too much ice cream watching GOT last night.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > My default assumption is always that a man can't go for 3 hours at my level. Usually I'm right.
> ...


Words are not always literal in cases such as this one. 

The point is there are a lot of men who cannot deliver enough banging. There are many who can’t deliver the rest either.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Buddy,
> I like you and your posts. They are smart and it is obvious that you are smart.
> 
> So - here is a thought I have had bouncin round in my thick skull for near a decade, a thought that, til tonight I have never expressed.
> ...


I am trying to figure out if you mean this literally or this is some kind of perception? Because it is soooo nottttt true. Pro tip: Men's sexual value does NOT lie in his penis!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I know!!!! It’s so easy for most men to improve their shoulders and arms, quickly and without much effort!
> ...


I actually can’t say all the ways that I look at a mans body before I decide if he’s hot enough to date or not, because I sound so shallow. But it’s a long list. And biceps are not the only thing on it. That’s a start. But for instance if you have nice biceps but skinny wrists....and don’t get me started on skinny ankles.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Words are not always literal in cases such as this one.


Yup. I know.



> The point is there are a lot of men who cannot deliver enough banging. There are many who can’t deliver the rest either.


Indeed.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

So now this thread is about male body parts (non penis) 

I do agree that for whatever reason, biceps do seem to draw women. I have always had big/defined arms and can say I have benefited from them. Funny enough though, if I had to give advice to younger men, I would actually tell them to build up their lower half. Maybe it is b/c arm size always came easy to me and I had to bust my ass to get my legs built to where they are now. IDK, the skinny jean/no leg look you see now with a lot of younger guys is just stupid...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> So now this thread is about male body parts (non penis)
> 
> I do agree that for whatever reason, biceps do seem to draw women. I have always had big/defined arms and can say I have benefited from them. Funny enough though, if I had to give advice to younger men, I would actually tell them to build up their lower half.


Friends don't let friends skip leg day!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

When I met my husband, he was a cyclist. His quads were scary big. mmmmmmmm mmmmm yum.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> So now this thread is about male body parts (non penis) <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" ></a>
> 
> I do agree that for whatever reason, biceps do seem to draw women. I have always had big/defined arms and can say I have benefited from them. Funny enough though, if I had to give advice to younger men, I would actually tell them to build up their lower half. Maybe it is b/c arm size always came easy to me and I had to bust my ass to get my legs built to where they are now. IDK, the skinny jean/no leg look you see now with a lot of younger guys is just stupid...


Every thread is a penis thread waiting to happen.

I was just trying to be all cool about it and sneak it in...you know, start by flirting with the biceps and work your way up to the pocket prize.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> So now this thread is about male body parts (non penis)
> 
> I do agree that for whatever reason, biceps do seem to draw women. I have always had big/defined arms and can say I have benefited from them. Funny enough though, if I had to give advice to younger men, I would actually tell them to build up their lower half. Maybe it is b/c arm size always came easy to me and I had to bust my ass to get my legs built to where they are now. IDK, the skinny jean/no leg look you see now with a lot of younger guys is just stupid...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plIsl41URyY


More about female sexual desire....

FW would not be doing her job if she posted on a thread like this and DIDN'T bring up being in shape and body parts!:grin2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Lila said:


> I think _most_ men cannot find women to engage in NSA sex. There are some that can.
> 
> I think opportunities for NSA sex are plenty but it's a matter of supply and demand. There are less women interested in NSA sex than men at any given point. The NSA women get to choose from the available men in the NSA pool. The men that don't get chosen often enough (or never) can either wait for an NSA woman to pick him or change their strategy to include entering into the commitment pool where there are more available women.



Sounds exhausting.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> Sounds exhausting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's also not very true. The guys who have it don't even have to look.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> I suspect the biggest factor for a woman to be successful at NSA sex is making herself enthusiastically available.



Just being a woman is probably enough. She could also be her ‘worst self’ and still be pretty successful I reckon....
But that’s with a certain type of guy.
What are we discussing here actually?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As soon as I sense my wife is getting bored with me, I’m definitely getting her a younger stud, or two. We can’t have a woman that is not 120% satisfied in our household 24/7. That’s just not acceptable.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I do wonder, for the women who do say their drop in desire is due to their SO letting themselves go, is it really simple as that? Hit the gym, drop some weight, and then the desire will come flooding back?? I am not saying that it won't help, but I could see it just being temporary, and once you get tat initial rush out of your system, whatever other reasons for a lack of desire will just resurface.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hmm..this thread seems to have exploded for no apparent reason...

Re the shaming part...I really don’t get what the issue is. What i read is this:

If women like to pursue an NSA sex lifestyle thingy, more power to them. There will always be men that will want to exploit that. And that’s fine.

However for men that want an LTR with their partner, why should they be thrilled if their partner decides to have a bit of NSA going on on the side?

Or why should these men (that are not interested in NSA sex) be even interested in anyone that wanted NSA sex since that’s not what they want for themselves? That’s not shaming or being intolerant, it’s just choosing what you want for yourself and dismissing what you don’t.



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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> The reason I say straight men think this is that gay men know exactly how beautiful the male body is.


Never said the male body cannot be beautiful.

But I think there are studies showing that the typical male rates a far higher percentage of women attractive than the percentage of males whom the typical woman rates as attractive. In a planet with 7 billion people, that still leaves plenty of young hot males for the females to oggle. But a higher percentage of the females are being oggled than of the males.

And I don't think you really disagree. This is part of the explanation (along with powerful social conditioning) of why men tend to discount the typical woman's sex drive. It is not that women don't have a strong sex drive. They just don't have a sex drive that is triggered by the overwhelming majority of men. So a bunch of men think to themselves that they have a stronger sex drive since such a high percentage of women trigger his drive, whereas he doesn't trigger the drive of many women. If he were the type of man who triggered lots of women's sex drives, he might have reached a different conclusion.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Nope. As soon as I read the first sentence, I thought of Pepe Le Pue and the cat who wants him to go away.


I love Pepe! He was an early hero of mine.:grin2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> The comparison to ED is very good.
> 
> A man could (and they often seem to) deny that there's a problem and insist that it's "not his fault" or make up reasons to avoid sex rather than deal with the problem (ED). With ED (or any other male sexual dysfunction) the solution is for the man to understand what's happening and to work with his wife using the approach that it's not something wrong with him or that he's no longer attracted to his wife.



I have been saying this for ages...It’s not a very popular thing to discuss among us, menz.

Wimmins also make up reasons why they are not so keen on having sex with husbands. Which may not be the actual reasons.

I think the more general point is that we have feelings (those cum first) and we are not always very good (or honest) at rationalising them correctly with our brains (which cum second) because we often see ourselves as someone different, than we really are. It’s the whole thing of being properly self-aware and stuff versus wishful thinking...But then again, if you think you are self aware, how can you know for sure that you really are, in all aspects of your life?
There’s usually a blind spot somewhere. There always is.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Nobody can complain when luck hands 'em a good one. Personally, I would rather be informed and succeed than ignorant and fail. Not everyone would.



I think his point was that it’s better to be dumb and lucky than informed and unlucky...At least if you only get one shot at it. Sometimes (rarely) ignorance can be bliss.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> Nor was it *unheard of* for the wife to give the duty sex at home, and get the hot sex elsewhere.



I am hearing it right now, above me in my hotel room. It sucks (being away).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> I think his point was that it’s better to be dumb and lucky than informed and unlucky...At least if you only get one shot at it. Sometimes (rarely) ignorance can be bliss.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Being the beneficiary of luck is great. Relying on it is stupid.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > The reason I say straight men think this is that gay men know exactly how beautiful the male body is.
> ...


Yes. All of that.

But that does not mean that young women aren’t noticing the hot ones. However many there are, we notice them.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Steve2.0 said:


> Because few men are told that their best sex are pre-marriage vs. post marriage. And those that ARE told think it wont happen to them.



Define ‘few’. I think a lot of men know the risks when they enter into an LTR. And yes it’s true that good sex ends for some men when they marry: it becomes GREAT sex once the transition is made successfully.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> I was trying to define the fact that both men and women have desires, instincts, needs that are biological (unconscious) in origin. It turned out that word was popular with the Red Pill crowd and served to unwillingly identify me as agreeing with everything they said.



Yes but the whole (new feminist) idea of ‘autonomy’, doesn’t allow any room for that. So instead of admitting that these things exist and occur naturally (biological/unconscious urges), many will continue to deny and blame society I stead for denying women their ‘autonomy’ when nobody is actually doing that.

Yet on the other end, the hypocrisy comes in when it is expected that men please better embrace those biological/unconscious urges (or lack of ‘autonomy’) whenever your woman decides to non-monogamise your relationship and accept it as a natural occurrence.

Mutete are always two undercurrents going on simultaneously which seems to continuously cause this cognitive dissonance: the rational and the biological. The rational (hamster/monkey/whatever -animal of your choice) often has a hard time keeping up with the biological part or is in direct conflict with it. Instead of recognising that this occurs in all of us to some extent, the blame is often aimed somewhere else for no apparent reason.

What does autonomy even mean? It implies always knowing and being in control of what one wants (while being always at one with your body and mind). This seems a very naive and meaningless notion that’s causing a lot of misunderstanding.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> It's also not very true. The guys who have it don't even have to look.




Have what? I am saying having NSA sex sounds exhausting. Not the ‘looking for it’ part.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> I've never been in favor of "hiding" anything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You tell them the truth, that apparently they don’t actually want it. 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Ok. So @EllisRedding and I both seem to be living life in defiance of this sentiment and possibly @samyeagar and maybe the OP of this thread as well. I'm uncertain as to the lengths of their marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’m not sure the 80/20 rule is supposed to refer to people who have (or don’t have) The Sex with a long term partner. 80/20 refers to people who **** around or have no trouble ****ing around (20% that do, and 80% that don’t, according to this theory anyway).
You can be in the 20% and marry someone who stops having sex with you. Do you suddenly slide back on the scale?

Or you can be in the 20% then marry someone, get fat and nobody else will ever want to **** you, except your wife. Where about are you on the scale then?

Or how about wimmins want to **** you but you can’t (for whatever reason).

This scale should be dumped. It’s utter non sense. Which doesn’t mean that some people don’t get ****ed more than others but *it is their choice*. Some of the time anyway.

I never ****ed around. Even though I had plenty of opportunities. Which percentile am I supposed to be in? (You forgot to include me into the ‘great sex after marriage’ category btw though we did have a few bumps. One small bump to be precise).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. And they have no clue that just this alone isn't going to be good enough for her.
> 
> And then he calls her LD.


Or that she is making up reasons/excuses, or that she does not know what she REALLY wants -- which is secretly him if she just knew it. Yah.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> I agree if she is specifically referring to the Red Pillers. I just consider them a small/insignificant portion



I have a feeling that a certain type of ‘guy’ talk (when we talk as if we were peacocks to impress or shock wimmins) maybe gets taken too seriously or literally by some women. There are some idiots who really think that way but I would guess most are just joking or say weird **** for effect. I know I am guilty of that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> I have a feeling that a certain type of ‘guy’ talk (when we talk as if we were peacocks to impress or shock wimmins) maybe gets taken too seriously or literally by some women. There are some idiots who really think that way but I would guess most are just joking or say weird **** for effect. I know I am guilty of that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Big **** competition?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I know I am about 50 posts late with this, but I think the "sexdar" is very apt.

Growing up, I believed the bull**** I was told and saw in movies about romancing a woman...to the point that I was hesitant to have sex with the first girl I ever fell for (high school)...because I did not want to "do that to her". Weird...repressed...misguided. 

When I was stationed in Germany from 1994-1997, my barracks roommate/best friend was highly sexual. He just had the "it" factor (which I will get into momentarily). There was a revolving door of women in our room...a few of which ended up with both of us at the same time. What I didn't realize at the time was that he was trying to show me that I was sexual as well...weird dynamic in that he openly stated he was attracted to me, we were best friends and such, but I had zero attraction towards him in return because men have never done it for me. That said, there were several wild things that happened with females simply by virtue of being his roommate. Not to say that I didn't have the occasional female or girlfriend, but I was settling for something sexual while looking for a relationship. I was also still holding on to those old, misguided beliefs.

I remember one specific instance where my roommate was sleeping with a married woman, who was in a legit open marriage, several times per week. One night, while we were all three out at a bar, she told me that I wasn't the sexual type that my roommate was...and that I was a good "provider" type. 

That saying has stuck with me through the years as I have thought about it often. At the time, it pissed me off...and it was completely accurate. I was looking for a relationship, not sex. All of my interactions with females probably advertised (screamed) it to the mountain tops if I had to wager a guess...all while repressing my sexual side.

Fast forward to 2000...fresh off of a divorce...mad at the world, and more specifically females. I managed to find sexual females EVERYWHERE. Yes, I was angry. But the IDGAF attitude was completely different for me. There was no desperation lying underneath the facade, as there was in Germany. This is when I discovered that it was not only okay to let my aggression out in the bedroom...but it was actually preferred by all but a few of the women I was sleeping with. It was mind blowing to me...given how I thought when I was younger.

I say all of that to say this...there are some very specific things in "Sexdar" that must be present and never be present, and @faithfulwife may have some things to say on this as I am trying my best to analyze this through the prism of nearly 20 years ago.

One thing I specifically recall being able to recognize in non-verbal communication was someone's intensity. That intensity level was absolutely necessary to recognize a sexual person. In fact, I can only remember being surprised by two females (of over 50 I have slept with) who did not have the underlying intensity, who ended up being incredibly sexual. The intensity of the rest could just be...sensed...and it was always high. I can't think of any other way to describe it. I believe this intensity to be a common trait among sexual people.

Another thing I believe to be common among sexual people is patience. Patience is the foundation of being able to build anticipation...which starts the moment strangers eyes meet. Not to say there is not a place for urgent quickies...especially in situations where you just might get caught...

There is a lot to consider in this. I may have more in a bit, but this is a good start.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Its like a garden, we have to keep weeding, keep pruning, mowing the lawn, cutting back the bushes or it will fast grow wild.



At what point do you reckon should one dump some compost on it? I always miss that time of year.

Is there really nothing at all that could be a bit better or different or even more perfect in your already (almost?) perfect sex life? I always find it hard to understand why someone would join a relationship site (that talks 99% about sex) for fun only 




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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I know I am about 50 posts late with this, but I think the "sexdar" is very apt.
> 
> Growing up, I believed the bull**** I was told and saw in movies about romancing a woman...to the point that I was hesitant to have sex with the first girl I ever fell for (high school)...because I did not want to "do that to her". Weird...repressed...misguided.


I'm sorry. Alas, not so weird. The opposite side of the same shame coin.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> Cuz' there's a lot of sexual mismatches out there. Apparently, plenty of highly sexual people are ending up with far less sexual partners. Didn't you say yourself you were in such a situation in your own marriage? As highly sexual as you are, you somehow not only managed to "see," but also attracted and married a not that type of man.




Yeah I am a little confused about it myself...
I thought Conan was mostly masturbating several times daily (no offence man  I know you have a sense of humour) and some women on this forum don’t have any sex life...; what is it that they have that ‘we’ don’t have?
Like you, i am feeling a tad left out now!

I would rather we could somehow try and refrain from painting everyone else who doesn’t live up to this (what is it now: 0.0001%)? as sexually disabled Quasimodos. 
(I know it wasn’t addressed nor does it apply to me but I just felt the urge to help my fellow brazzers who find themselves in less than ideal circumstances currently....).


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

One other note on intensity, which for whatever reason I was able to sense very well.

The majority of sexual women I encountered were, for lack of a better term, absolutely crazy...cluster B types. Not to say all are that way, but just in my own experience.

This may have to do with what I attract, or my seeking/welcoming the aforementioned intensity...or another factor I don't recognize.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> The point is there are a lot of men who cannot deliver enough banging. There are many who can’t deliver the rest either.


Seems like you're feeling negative about men lately.

What I sense from your posts on this topic, female loss of libido in LTRs, is roughly the following: 

"Women have no issues, it's just that many (most?) men aren't capable of giving women what they need sexually"

So whereas you see me as blaming all the world's problems on women, I tend to see the reverse from you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Similar to the post I made to FW regarding you, this says more about how you feel about her posts rather than what she is actually communicating.



Buddy400 said:


> Seems like you're feeling negative about men lately.
> 
> What I sense from your posts on this topic, female loss of libido in LTRs, is roughly the following:
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> It probably falls into the category she talked about where someone is aware.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah....
You mean the ‘ugly’ truth that you are amazingly sexual and everyone else is rubbish? I know...it must be a terribly painful and unwanted truth to hear 

Ok, it sounds like you guys need to get a room to really talk out all the nuances of this truth and really nail this down properly 
And I need to go to bed. People finally stopped ****ing upstairs so I can sleep.
Jet lag is a b1tch.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Seems like you're feeling negative about men lately.
> 
> What I sense from your posts on this topic, female loss of libido in LTRs, is roughly the following:
> 
> ...



When NS and I are commiserating, such as in the post you quoted, we are talking about our own experiences. Which may not be representative of most women, right?

But also...I’m taking in info from my sisters in the wild and they are telling me the men’s aren’t always living up to our hopes and dreams, at least in the banging department.

Now, not all women want that anyway so it’s not something I can advocate for....and I certainly can’t tell these guys myself how t do it correctly. So I’m just passing it along out there, in case maybe the thought will inspire some men to think about their prowess, skill and performance.

And I don’t know how else to say it, but yeah it is kind of tragic how many men really don’t have enough skill. 

If we ignore this and don’t talk about it, we will have more women eventually just walking away.

If the tables were turned and the men were the ones who lose interest in sex with one woman, wouldn’t we try to also examine all the reasons it could be that way? And wouldn’t we assume that at least sometimes, it was because women aren’t that good at sex? (But since this not what happens, seems we can assume the sex is good enough for him in reality but not for her).

I am not saying this is men’s fault necessarily. How are the supposed to learn? I wish there was honest, good ****ing education available. People need it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Seems like you're feeling negative about men lately.
> 
> What I sense from your posts on this topic, female loss of libido in LTRs, is roughly the following:
> 
> ...


THAT's what you get out of her posts???


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> Have what? I am saying having NSA sex sounds exhausting. Not the ‘looking for it’ part.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If sex is not exhausting, you're not doing it right!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> One other note on intensity, which for whatever reason I was able to sense very well.
> 
> The majority of sexual women I encountered were, for lack of a better term, absolutely crazy...cluster B types. Not to say all are that way, but just in my own experience.
> 
> This may have to do with what I attract, or my seeking/welcoming the aforementioned intensity...or another factor I don't recognize.


Well, you said you were angry, at women specifically. And yeah, the crazy women tend to come out of the woodwork for angry, crazed men.

Unfortunate that you stated it like this on this post. I was almost going to have a little hurrah party because you finally described highly sexual women without at the same time calling them ****s. But then on this post you call then cray cray, so :frown2:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> More about female sexual desire....
> 
> FW would not be doing her job if she posted on a thread like this and DIDN'T bring up being in shape and body parts!:grin2:


While being in shape and body parts are important (especially not varying too much from where you were when the relationship started and the sex was plentiful), there's got to be more to desire than just physical attraction. Mushy stuff like love, etc.

My wife and I are having more and better sex than ever (well, the first couple of months there might have been *more*, but it wasn't better).

So are we every bit as physically attractive as we were 30 years ago? Not a chance. But, the thing is, we're every bit as attracted to each other as we used to be, probably more. So that points to there being more than being in shape and body parts going on there.

I used to work out a lot. For a couple of years I was about 5 pounds away from being a Golden God. Did she like it? Yes. Did she find me more attractive? Yes. Did we have more sex? Nope. Did she have better or more frequent orgasms? Nope.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> I would rather we could somehow try and refrain from painting everyone else who doesn’t live up to this (what is it now: 0.0001%)? as sexually disabled Quasimodos.


That is not the point at all. Quite the opposite. Knowing and being who you are will increase the likelihood of finding a compatible mate.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> One other note on intensity, which for whatever reason I was able to sense very well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nope, not just you. I’m 100% with you on this one.



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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, you said you were angry, at women specifically. And yeah, the crazy women tend to come out of the woodwork for angry, crazed men.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunate that you stated it like this on this post. I was almost going to have a little hurrah party because you finally described highly sexual women without at the same time calling them ****s. But then on this post you call then cray cray, so :frown2:


I anticipated that. Please note that at no time was **** or it's equivalent (at least in my definitions) used.

This is why I was sure to point out that it likely had more to do with my "picker" than anything. 

I would further argue that it is entirely possible I am crazy that way as well.

Water seeks it's own level, or so JLD used to say. I believe it.

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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, you said you were angry, at women specifically. And yeah, the crazy women tend to come out of the woodwork for angry, crazed men.
> 
> Unfortunate that you stated it like this on this post. I was almost going to have a little hurrah party because you finally described highly sexual women without at the same time calling them ****s. But then on this post you call then cray cray, so :frown2:


I think I blocked the cray cray.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> That is not the point at all. Quite the opposite. Knowing and being who you are will increase the likelihood of finding a compatible mate.




Hahaaa....Thanks! 
I finally know who I am! If only I found The Truth earlier!
(Seriously. I need sleep. How does one get oneself banned around here?)












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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> > More about female sexual desire....
> ...


But your case obviously does not represent the cases of women who do lose their drive. So examine what you have done correctly and you’ve got your answer, or at least an answer about a woman with her sex drive and a man with your sex drive.

You are the one who should be telling these guys how you made that happen. If you don’t know how, examine your actions along the way.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I anticipated that. Please note that at no time was **** or it's equivalent (at least in my definitions) used.
> 
> This is why I was sure to point out that it likely had more to do with my "picker" than anything.
> 
> ...















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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> I’m not sure the 80/20 rule is supposed to refer to people who have (or don’t have) The Sex with a long term partner. 80/20 refers to people who **** around or have no trouble ****ing around (20% that do, and 80% that don’t, according to this theory anyway).
> You can be in the 20% and marry someone who stops having sex with you. Do you suddenly slide back on the scale?


The 80/20 rule says that 20% of guys are having all the sex they want and 80% are having very little sex.

This only applies outside of committed relationships (although I would think that a 20% guy in a relationship cheats more just because he has more opportunities to).

I'd imagine that a 20% guy could easily be in a sexless marriage (However, being a 20% er, he'd probably feel more confident in leaving and his partner, know that he has options, may be more motivated to keep him around).

I'm just explaining the theory, not defending it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you said you were angry, at women specifically. And yeah, the crazy women tend to come out of the woodwork for angry, crazed men.
> ...


Unfortunately, other posters will immediately equate the two, cray women and sexual women. And they will then say that you even agree, so it must be right!

I’m sorry you never got a chance to see what highly sexual non cray women do.

It’s quite a spectacular thing.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Unfortunately, other posters will immediately equate the two, cray women and sexual women. And they will then say that you even agree, so it must be right!
> 
> I’m sorry you never got a chance to see what highly sexual non cray women do.
> 
> It’s quite a spectacular thing.


I did experience a couple.

One of them is the "one who got away".

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I know the topic is specifically about female desire, but is the assumption that men don't lose desire in LTRs, or if they do it is just to a lesser extent? I guess, when i see many of the possible reasons why females in LTRs lose desire, I can see those very same reasons as being present in men. Maybe part is due to the perception that men will hump anything with a minimum of one leg, so their desire is not as complicated? I wonder if in general it is more "devastating" for a man to say he doesn't desire a woman versus the opposite (I don't even know how this would apply to non hetero relationships lol).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately, other posters will immediately equate the two, cray women and sexual women. And they will then say that you even agree, so it must be right!
> ...


So the thing is, you are right that like attracts like. 

When two highly sexual and non cray people get at each other, you have the type of awesome ongoing sex life that people claim they want. And it’s an easy thing to maintain.

My sex life in my last marriage was awesome and never once was it not awesome.

People think I am either boasting or lying about this. It’s the same for Conan and his wife, Personal, and Sam Yeager.

It really is the combination of two highly sexual people that makes this happen. It’s not a mystery mix. It will happen every time. If two of them have chemistry and decide it’s game on, then the game will be on indefinitely.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. And they have no clue that just this alone isn't going to be good enough for her.
> 
> And then he calls her LD.





NobodySpecial said:


> Or that she is making up reasons/excuses, or that she does not know what she REALLY wants -- which is secretly him if she just knew it. Yah.


If a guy just met a woman, they had sex a few times, she didn't want to have sex with him again and he then said "She's LD", you would be right. Of course, if she was still dating him, one would wonder why. If she'd stopped dating him because the sex sucked and he responded with "She's LD" that would mean that he's an *******.

But, in the overwhelming number of cases we're talking about here (and in loss of libido in LTRs especially) the LD happens after an initial period of (apparently) satisfying sex. So, it doesn't seem as if the issue is men being particularly bad in bed (unless he was good, stopped trying and became bad). If the woman was faking it at the beginning, then she's every bit as much to blame as the husband who's bad at sex.

You and @failthfulWife seem determined to convince the world that most men are not capable of sexually satisfying women. This may be true, but think it really has very little to do with a woman's loss of libido in a committed relationship (the point of this thread).


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I know the topic is specifically about female desire, but is the assumption that men don't lose desire in LTRs, or if they do it is just to a lesser extent? I guess, when i see many of the possible reasons why females in LTRs lose desire, I can see those very same reasons as being present in men. Maybe part is due to the perception that men will hump anything with a minimum of one leg, so their desire is not as complicated? I wonder if in general it is more "devastating" for a man to say he doesn't desire a woman versus the opposite (I don't even know how this would apply to non hetero relationships lol).


Don’t you read the many threads we have here by women whose men don’t want them?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Don’t you read the many threads we have here by women whose men don’t want them?


Not my point (on way out so can't respond further for the time being)


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Similar to the post I made to FW regarding you, this says more about how you feel about her posts rather than what she is actually communicating.


Very true.

That's why I explicitly stated that this was my "sense" of what she was saying, not that it was what she was saying.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I know the topic is specifically about female desire, but is the assumption that men don't lose desire in LTRs, or if they do it is just to a lesser extent? I guess, when i see many of the possible reasons why females in LTRs lose desire, I can see those very same reasons as being present in men. Maybe part is due to the perception that men will hump anything with a minimum of one leg, so their desire is not as complicated? I wonder if in general it is more "devastating" for a man to say he doesn't desire a woman versus the opposite (I don't even know how this would apply to non hetero relationships lol).


Men may lose their interest for their partner, but they rarely lose interest in sex altogether. I would guess that men generally have a more consistent number of orgasms per week. If they aren't getting them with their partner, they will take "matters into their own hands". 

We've had several threads from women who say they've lost their drive and they have no clue what happened to it. They say they used to be HD, but now they could care less. Have we ever had a thread like that from a man? I guess they might be less willing to admit it, but I think it's much less likely to happen. But we have had many threads from men who no longer find their wives attractive for one reason or another. Yet even in those cases, he still wants sex. He's asking how he can make his wife more attractive rather than asking how he can have a desire for sex in the first place.

And even in the case where a man has lost his drive, the solution can be something very simple like increasing testosterone levels. A man is less likely to need a solid emotional connection or to be deeply in love for his desire for sex to awaken. Typically if hormone levels are normal, he will desire sex.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Right. And they have no clue that just this alone isn't going to be good enough for her.
> ...


This must be something you haven’t considered yet but I’m not sure why because there is a lot written about it...


When in a new relationship, those chemicals make you feel as if everything is better than it actually is. And yes, that includes sex.

Women in a new relationship will many times feel really good about the guy, and that makes the sex seem good at the time.

Then when things aren’t new anymore, she finds that the sex isn’t that good either.

You know how there are so many men who claim the bait and switch?

It’s because she really did think it was good at the time...because she was flooded with all kinds of feel good cocktails. And so she also was open and free sexually. Kind of like being drunk or on drugs.

But the same sex when you are not drunk or on drugs is sloppy and meh.

Again, there is a lot written about this. I don’t know why it’s hard to understand. 

I’m guessing that you may think that if it was good for her “at the time” then you think that actually is a statement about the guys skills? It’s really not.

Also...women don’t usually understand this themselves when they are young. It’s great at first and then it’s not, even though he did not change.

It seems like you really insist that there must be a reason that can be pointed to. Maybe the actual reason is because nature doesn’t want or need us to be monogamous.

Or if you do want reasons, I’m telling you the ones women I know who are self aware and have thought through these things have told me.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> THAT's what you get out of her posts???


Not all of her posts, but the ones lately, on this topic.

And I'm not saying that this IS what she thinks, I said that this is the "sense" I'm getting from them.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> This must be something you haven’t considered yet but I’m not sure why because there is a lot written about it...
> 
> 
> When in a new relationship, those chemicals make you feel as if everything is better than it actually is. And yes, that includes sex.
> ...


I have an opinion. It is NOT hard to understand. There is a desire NOT to understand because it renders a fairly average dude incapable of getting what he wants. 



> I’m guessing that you may think that if it was good for her “at the time” then you think that actually is a statement about the guys skills? It’s really not.


Which is why you get the people who say my wife has orgasms but still does not want to have sex every minuet of every day. What gives?



> Also...women don’t usually understand this themselves when they are young. It’s great at first and then it’s not, even though he did not change.


Not only do they not understand, the ability to self actualize in this way is stunted by the guilt of being sexually "wrong".



> It seems like you really insist that there must be a reason that can be pointed to. Maybe the actual reason is because nature doesn’t want or need us to be monogamous.
> 
> Or if you do want reasons, I’m telling you the ones women I know who are self aware and have thought through these things have told me.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> But your case obviously does not represent the cases of women who do lose their drive. So examine what you have done correctly and you’ve got your answer, or at least an answer about a woman with her sex drive and a man with your sex drive.
> 
> You are the one who should be telling these guys how you made that happen. If you don’t know how, examine your actions along the way.


I disagree.

I think @EllisRedding and I are the same guy (only he's better looking).

He went 2 years in a technically sexless marriage. I've never gone longer than two weeks.

If I were to look for explanations for my marriage's success in this department, I'd say that it's at least 50% due to my wife.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> When in a new relationship, those chemicals make you feel as if everything is better than it actually is. And yes, that includes sex.


As you mention, not only do we think sex is awesome, we think everything is awesome about our partner at the beginning. We love the sound of their voice, their laugh, the way they sneeze, the way they spend 5 minutes with the waiter asking for changes and stuff on the side, finding their hair on the bathroom counter, etc. But once those chemicals wear off, we are back to our normal feelings.

We also experience this heightened enjoyment with drugs or alcohol. You may have watched a movie when stoned or drunk and thought "THIS IS THE BEST MOVIE EVER!!! I LOVE ALVIN AND THE CHIPMUNKS CHRISTMAS BLOWOUT!!!!!", but then when you watch it sober you wonder WTH you were thinking. You're basically stoned when just starting out in a new relationship. It's no wonder people crave that feeling and will do many destructive things to feel it again (e.g. affairs).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I know the topic is specifically about female desire, but is the assumption that men don't lose desire in LTRs, or if they do it is just to a lesser extent? I


I see neither that assumption being used here nor men not losing desire in LTRs in real life.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> If I were to look for explanations for my marriage's success in this department, I'd say that it's at least 50% due to my wife.


Does that change anything being said?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> This must be something you haven’t considered yet but I’m not sure why because there is a lot written about it...
> 
> 
> When in a new relationship, those chemicals make you feel as if everything is better than it actually is. And yes, that includes sex.
> ...



You're right. I hadn't considered that.



Faithful Wife said:


> But the same sex when you are not drunk or on drugs is sloppy and meh.
> 
> Again, there is a lot written about this. I don’t know why it’s hard to understand.
> 
> ...


I always assumed that there was more *desire* to have sex when the relationship was new. But, if NRE affects the actual perceived enjoyment of sex, then a man can to the exact same thing for years which is perceived as good and then do nothing different (with the exact same woman) and suddenly the sex is perceived as bad. 

I was aware that a man could say the same thing to two different woman and whether it is "bad" or not depends on how it is perceived by the woman, but I didn't know this. So there's no hope of determining sexual compatibility early on in a relationship (I never thought it was, but this makes it even more unlikely). This is pretty scary (to men and, I would think, to many women).



Faithful Wife said:


> It seems like you really insist that there must be a reason that can be pointed to. Maybe the actual reason is because nature doesn’t want or need us to be monogamous.
> 
> Or if you do want reasons, I’m telling you the ones women I know who are self aware and have thought through these things have told me.


Well, it's almost always more reassuring to believe that things have explanations and one can influence outcomes by making different decisions or taking different actions, but that is probably naive.

I'm starting to have my doubts that this whole men and women thing is ever going to work out.

I suspect that the only way it worked is when men and woman were forced into doing what society required.

Let men and women make free choices and we're likely to see men just competing for the attentions of whatever woman feels like having sex at the moment. Women would just end up raising kids on their own. Maybe the prospect of paying child support for 18 years would hold men back a bit.

I just don't think this would end up making men or women happy.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> You're right. I hadn't considered that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is interesting to see the thought result of the information. You seem discouraged by it. "I'm starting to have my doubts that this whole men and women thing is ever going to work out." DH was like ... well given this, what do you think we can and should do to keep it real? Weird.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Does that change anything being said?


Well, my "sense" of this thread is that if anyone was responsible to female loss of libido in committed relationships, it was the man and that women had no agency in what happens to them.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is interesting to see the thought result of the information. You seem discouraged by it. "I'm starting to have my doubts that this whole men and women thing is ever going to work out." DH was like ... well given this, what do you think we can and should do to keep it real? Weird.


When I say "I'm starting to have doubts that this will work out", I'm talking from a "society at large" perspective.

Individually, it may work out just fine for many.

As I've pointed out, everything's worked out well for *me*, so I'm cool.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Well, my "sense" of this thread is that if anyone was *responsible *to female loss of libido in committed relationships, it was the man and that women had no agency in what happens to them.


grrrrrr

Smartest thing to do is just recognize that it is information. But if you have read anything I have ever said, you know I think the desire for blame or responsibility assignment of this kind is the #1 obstacle to good forward progress. Most information is devoid necessary of inference of this kind. This is a Good Thing.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> When I say "I'm starting to have doubts that this will work out", I'm talking from a "society at large" perspective.


Society at large will do best when people LEARN. I am hopeful since eventually the lion's share of supportable info is accepted.



> Individually, it may work out just fine for many.
> 
> As I've pointed out, everything's worked out well for *me*, so I'm cool.


I see Buddy making an excellent advocate and leader in the are of effective and ethical social understanding for young men!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> If I were to look for explanations for my marriage's success in this department, *I'd say that it's at least 50% due to my wife*.


I would say so, too. So study her and how it is working for her, then tell the rest of the guys.

But the problem will be....they don't have a wife like her.

And so then what?

Kinda been my point here.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> grrrrrr
> 
> Smartest thing to do is just recognize that it is information. But if you have read anything I have ever said, you know I think the desire for blame or responsibility assignment of this kind is the #1 obstacle to good forward progress. Most information is devoid necessary of inference of this kind. This is a Good Thing.


I think we misfire on this because you see "responsible" as a desire to assign blame and I use it as a way to identify matters over which one has some measure of control.

Is there some other term I could use to describe what I mean without triggering you (and, perhaps, others)?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I think we misfire on this because you see "responsible" as a desire to assign blame and I use it as a way to identify matters over which one has some *measure of control*.


I don't see one half of a relationship as devoid of control implied by ANY of this information.



> Is there some other term I could use to describe what I mean without triggering you (and, perhaps, others)?


What do you mean triggering?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm starting to have my doubts that this whole men and women thing is ever going to work out.
> 
> I suspect that the only way it worked is when men and woman were forced into doing what society required.
> 
> ...


Ok, well I will just offer that when I have a friend who says something like this, I remind him or her that they just sound old, and that the young people do not need us worrying about them. And then I remind them that all the old people said the same thing about us when we were young. :laugh:


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Well, my "sense" of this thread is that if anyone was responsible to female loss of libido in committed relationships, it was the man and that women had no agency in what happens to them.


They have agency, they just don't realize he's an ******* yet cause it is all your fault don't you know. That @Faithful Wife post was frikkin rich. Those NRE chemicals made her think the sex was good. LOL!!!

Really? So you can not ever trust a women's reaction or what she says any time any where. 

Was there a book we were going to discuss? Has anyone read it?>


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I think we misfire on this because you see "responsible" as a desire to assign blame and I use it as a way to identify matters *over which one has some measure of control*.
> 
> Is there some other term I could use to describe what I mean without triggering you (and, perhaps, others)?



So what I think needs to happen is for people to understand that they CANNOT control others. And once you understand that, then you can actually learn things that may in fact cause change.

But wanting control in itself is problematic.

Accepting you have none is mature and responsible.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Really? So you can not ever trust a women's reaction or what she says any time any where.


Actually, that is correct in a new relationship. She will most definitely feel one thing in a new relationship and it may feel totally different in the same relationship once it is not new any more.

Um...you know I didn't invent this idea, right? It is based on reproduced scientific studies that show the same thing over and over: She likes it in the beginning, she loses interest in it later - - but only with the same guy.

If you don't want to believe or understand this, that's cool. But don't lay it on me. I'm just responding to posts with actual things that have been studied.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

anonmd said:


> They have agency, they just don't realize he's an ******* yet cause it is all your fault don't you know. That @Faithful Wife post was frikkin rich. Those NRE chemicals made her think the sex was good. LOL!!!
> 
> Really? So you can not ever trust a women's reaction or what she says any time any where.
> 
> Was there a book we were going to discuss? Has anyone read it?>


lol. Someone's bitter.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok, well I will just offer that when I have a friend who says something like this, I remind him or her that they just sound old, and that the young people do not need us worrying about them. And then I remind them that all the old people said the same thing about us when we were young.


So much truth in this.

Not only that, but we'll all soon (in the grand scheme of things) be either dead or invalid, making it their world to deal with. 

They will do so in a manner they see fit.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

anonmd said:


> They have agency, they just don't realize he's an ******* yet cause it is all your fault don't you know. That @Faithful Wife post was frikkin rich. Those NRE chemicals made her think the sex was good. LOL!!!
> 
> Really? So you can not ever trust a women's reaction or what she says any time any where.
> 
> Was there a book we were going to discuss? Has anyone read it?>


I'm reading it. I'm having difficulty however, because she is blatantly biased towards her own opinionated conclusions and so myopic in her bias as to be occasionally stupid.

Useful facts are hard to come by but some interesting cultural studies have taken place.

The Himba people are a pretty interesting read that I enjoyed finding out about.

They are highly non monogamous with infidelity from both genders being fairly open and accepted.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I'm reading it. I'm having difficulty however, because she is blatantly biased towards her own opinionated conclusions and so myopic in her bias as to be occasionally stupid.
> 
> Useful facts are hard to come by but some interesting cultural studies have taken place.
> 
> ...


Not to pick nits, but it's an important distinction. If it is open and accepted, than it is not faithless ... aka infidelity.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I'm reading it. I'm having difficulty however, because she is blatantly biased towards her own opinionated conclusions and so myopic in her bias as to be occasionally stupid.


Wow, gee thanks!

Ok I'll not bother you with my stupidity, Conan. 

That was weird and rude.

But whatever.

ETA....Sorry Conan, I read you wrong and thought everything is about me. My apologies.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Wow, gee thanks!
> 
> Ok I'll not bother you with my stupidity, Conan.
> 
> ...


I thought he was referring to the author of the book.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Wow, gee thanks!
> 
> Ok I'll not bother you with my stupidity, Conan.
> 
> ...


I took it to be that Conan was talking about the author of the book. Not everything is about you FW


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> So much truth in this.
> 
> Not only that, but we'll all soon (in the grand scheme of things) be either dead or invalid, making it their world to deal with.
> 
> They will do so in a manner they see fit.


Plus it is just so illogical. While we are rampantly overpopulating the earth, someone is worried that this whole man and woman thing may not "work out"?
@Buddy400 - do you have other fears about the world ending, or catastrophic events? Is fears like this a theme in your life? Only asking because I just can't relate.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> I took it to be that Conan was talking about the author of the book. Not everything is about you FW


To be fair, I had to read it twice because I thought.... wait - Conan CAN'T be talking about FW.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> I took it to be that Conan was talking about the author of the book. Not everything is about you FW


OMG I'm a dumbass!!!! :laugh:


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Not to pick nits, but it's an important distinction. If it is open and accepted, than it is not faithless ... aka infidelity.


I was actually paraphrasing but the term "accepted" or "open" infidelity was used so I used it as well.

Like I said, Martin isn't that bright.:wink2:


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Wow, gee thanks!
> 
> Ok I'll not bother you with my stupidity, Conan.
> 
> ...


Honest slip. I have found your research to have quite a bit more validity in real life.:wink2:


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I was actually paraphrasing but the term "accepted" or "open" infidelity was used so I used it as well.
> 
> Like I said, Martin isn't that bright.:wink2:


LOL!


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> OMG I'm a dumbass!!!! :laugh:


Aren't we all occasionally?:wink2:

Dumbass, smartass, badass and you usually make me laugh my ass off so you are pretty easy to forgive!:grin2:


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Aren't we all occasionally?:wink2:
> 
> Dumbass, smartass, badass and you usually make me laugh my ass off so you are pretty easy to forgive!:grin2:


You forgot fine ass. :laugh:


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> You forgot fine ass. :laugh:


How would we know?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> How would we know?


I haven't been fortunate enough to view her derriere but I have heard rumors it's pretty nice.:laugh:


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> How would we know?


Don't you have assdar?

I'll send you a form to fill out whereby you can order an assdar detector from me, since you do not have the telepathic power, you'll need technology.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Don't you have assdar?
> 
> I'll send you a form to fill out whereby you can order an assdar detector from me, since you do not have the telepathic power, you'll need technology.


lol. Not an ass girl.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> lol. Not an ass girl.


Oh, that does make sense! Just piecing together other things you've said over time.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

> Really? So you can not ever trust a women's reaction or what she says any time any where





Faithful Wife said:


> Actually, that is correct in a new relationship. She will most definitely feel one thing in a new relationship and it may feel totally different in the same relationship once it is not new any more.
> 
> Um...you know I didn't invent this idea, right? It is based on reproduced scientific studies that show the same thing over and over: She likes it in the beginning, she loses interest in it later - - but only with the same guy.
> 
> If you don't want to believe or understand this, that's cool. But don't lay it on me. I'm just responding to posts with actual things that have been studied.


Glad we agree, bait and switch is a real thing. Women are not reliable observers of their own feelings. Believing what a women says makes you a fool or a sucker. Is this women in general? Feminist women? Do you think this is only in affairs of the heart or life in general? :x:grin2:


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

One interesting fact, to me anyway, was that women of the Himba people who were allowed to marry for love had no children from other men.

There were quite a few arranged marriages and all the extramarital children conceived were in this group.

These women did their duty and married who their families wanted them to but took a lover they chose to have children with as well.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Glad we agree, bait and switch is a real thing. Women are not reliable observers of their own feelings. Believing what a women says makes you a fool or a sucker. Is this women in general? Feminist women? Do you think this is only in affairs of the heart or life in general? :x:grin2:


I'm not really sure why you would be engaging me on this, after you've already made it clear that I don't know what I'm talking about ("frikken rich", I believe you said?)


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> One interesting fact, to me anyway, was that women of the Himba people who were allowed to marry for love had no children from other men.
> 
> There were quite a few arranged marriages and all the extramarital children conceived were in this group.
> 
> These women did their duty and married who their families wanted them to but took a lover they chose to have children with as well.



There are actually lots of study about the mating habits of tribal people. I would say that studying them is very useful, in the sense that it shows us that most of sexual behavior is cultural. Change the culture, change the sex life of that population.

Its just that people don't want to hear this. They want it to be black and white and the same everywhere and they want to see a direct evolutionary line from cave man to modern man. That's how evo-psyche came to be. They went backwards from "things are thus and so, therefore it must be that evolution created us thus and so, therefore let's pervert all available data we have in order to make it look as if evolution made it thus and so". 

Man seems pretty ignorant about how powerful his own cultural dictates are. They absolutely over-ride biology.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Glad we agree, bait and switch is a real thing. Women are not reliable observers of their own feelings. Believing what a women says makes you a fool or a sucker. Is this women in general? Feminist women? Do you think this is only in affairs of the heart or life in general? :x:grin2:


You are missing a few things here.

NRE is in affect for men as well.

Studies have shown more women lose sexual attraction for their men in committed relationships than vice versa.

This is apparently a real issue and hardly a deception by these women who don't realize it could affect them towards the beginning of a committed relationship.

Daniel Bergner wrote a much better book researching this subject called "What Do Women Want?"

Have some restraint and you will probably learn from women.

I have learned a great deal and continue to.

Mrs. Conan is benefitting a lot sexually recently from years of my research on TAM and many women here who have bravely shared insights.

Why not ask questions and direct curiosity instead of lash out? 

There are a lot of men who fit your bait and switch statement as well.

Should women not listen to anything men say either as a result?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> There are actually lots of study about the mating habits of tribal people. I would say that studying them is very useful, in the sense that it shows us that most of sexual behavior is cultural. Change the culture, change the sex life of that population.
> 
> Its just that people don't want to hear this. They want it to be black and white and the same everywhere and they want to see a direct evolutionary line from cave man to modern man. That's how evo-psyche came to be. They went backwards from "things are thus and so, therefore it must be that evolution created us thus and so, therefore let's pervert all available data we have in order to make it look as if evolution made it thus and so".
> 
> Man seems pretty ignorant about how powerful his own cultural dictates are. They absolutely over-ride biology.


I agree about culture being the influence and not junk evo-psychology.

There is far too much evidence that supports this.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> You are missing a few things here.
> 
> NRE is in affect for men as well.
> 
> ...



Men who have swallowed the red pill are specifically forbidden from talking to men like you, Conan. You are a natural, therefore you do not know what you are doing that works, and also, what works for you won't work for other men because they are not in the 20%.

On the other hand, men who have swallowed the red pill seem to loooooove coming after women, particularly feminist women, and telling us all about what they know about how women are hypergamous *****s.

A man steps into the conversation, and the red pill guy will flee the scene. He feels he can "beat up" on women and then run when a mature, reasonable man comes in the room.

It is the same with all of them I've ever noticed around here. They love telling me what's what, they disappear when rational men come around.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Men who have swallowed the red pill are specifically forbidden from talking to men like you, Conan. You are a natural, therefore you do not know what you are doing that works, and also, what works for you won't work for other men because they are not in the 20%.
> 
> On the other hand, men who have swallowed the red pill seem to loooooove coming after women, particularly feminist women, and telling us all about what they know about how women are hypergamous *****s.
> 
> ...


It is just a shame that a great resource, like TAM, where occasionally men and women can safely open up and learn from each other, is so often overlooked.


I recently was informed by a respected poster that I am genetically gifted.

Maybe not everyone can get some of the results I can in the wild but everyone can learn like I am and it is that simple.

Exchanging ideas and learning is a very high function, something I pretty much consider spiritual and has nothing to do with looks. Especially on a forum.

I don't ask for pictures before I consider someone's wisdom LoL!

Though I like pictures!>:wink2:


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I am not going anywhere. 

Glad to see someone read the book and realizes the author came at it with a built in bias. 

Does big bad, scary 20%'er :allhail: @ConanHub think it is worth 15 bucks? As I said, I read the free "read a sample" kindle part and was not all that impressed but maybe I'm wrong...


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Men who have swallowed the red pill are specifically forbidden from talking to men like you, Conan. You are a natural, therefore you do not know what you are doing that works, and also, what works for you won't work for other men because they are not in the 20%.
> 
> On the other hand, men who have swallowed the red pill seem to loooooove coming after women, particularly feminist women, and telling us all about what they know about how women are hypergamous *****s.
> 
> ...


A woman can't tell them squat. A MAN has to. And he wonders why he isn't getting laid -- attraction and drive aside.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

anonmd said:


> I am not going anywhere.
> 
> Glad to see someone read the book and realizes the author came at it with a built in bias.
> 
> Does big bad, scary 20%'er :allhail: @ConanHub think it is worth 15 bucks? As I said, I read the free "read a sample" kindle part and was not all that impressed but maybe I'm wrong...


I do not recommend paying full price. As I mentioned, there are far better works on this subject.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> It is the same with all of them I've ever noticed around here. They love telling me what's what, they disappear when rational men come around.


Ever noticed that when someone asks ladies what they like/want either here or in the lounge, the men DESCEND on the topic like vultures?


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> And I don’t know how else to say it, but yeah it is kind of tragic how many men really don’t have enough skill.
> . . . .
> I am not saying this is men’s fault necessarily. How are the supposed to learn? I wish there was honest, good ****ing education available. People need it.


Exactly. I was never good at sex. Came before I was fully inserted on more than 1 occasion (which is quite a feat when you are as small as I am). Felt terrible ashamed when the sex was bad for her (as it was every time). What is a young man to do who doesn't find it easy to obtain partners and has zero skill. How do you get enough skill so you aren't so paralyzed by fear when the opportunity to have sex actually arrives?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Exactly. I was never good at sex. Came before I was fully inserted on more than 1 occasion (which is quite a feat when you are as small as I am). Felt terrible ashamed when the sex was bad for her (as it was every time). What is a young man to do who doesn't find it easy to obtain partners and has zero skill. How do you get enough skill so you aren't so paralyzed by fear when the opportunity to have sex actually arrives?


Prostitutes? I know some more timid guys who got help that way.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Ever noticed that when someone asks ladies what they like/want either here or in the lounge, the men DESCEND on the topic like vultures?


As they should if they want to learn but they shouldn't act like vultures but voyeurs and eavesdroppers instead.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

anonmd said:


> I am not going anywhere.
> 
> Glad to see someone read the book and realizes the author came at it with a built in bias.
> 
> Does big bad, scary 20%'er :allhail: @ConanHub think it is worth 15 bucks? As I said, I read the free "read a sample" kindle part and was not all that impressed but maybe I'm wrong...


P.S. you asked a reasonable question wrapped in extreme sarcasm.

Do you believe I have it coming?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > And I don’t know how else to say it, but yeah it is kind of tragic how many men really don’t have enough skill.
> ...


I agree, it’s a difficult thing to get better at, impossible if you don’t have a nice partner who will communicate.

But you already know the other part of my answer. If a man doesn’t leave and just accepts things the way they are even though he doesn’t like it, he’s probably not that sexual himself. That’s why he can accept it.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Prostitutes? I know some more timid guys who got help that way.


Did that once. Hated it. Felt more ashamed than ever.
I am thinking sex therapist / surrogate. Someone who is trained in how to train men. Without shame on either side.
We have vocational training for carpenters and welders and car mechanics. Why not vocational training for sex?


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> P.S. you asked a reasonable question wrapped in extreme sarcasm.
> 
> Do you believe I have it coming?


You, no. Anyone implying I may be scared off because of your comment - yes!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > Prostitutes? I know some more timid guys who got help that way.
> ...


They are called sex surrogates, and yes this exists. They have male ones who help women, too.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> As they should if they want to learn but they shouldn't act like vultures but voyeurs and eavesdroppers instead.


It's not about eavesdropping. It's about telling us how they know so much better then we do about how WE feel and what WE want.

It's actually laughably pathetic.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I do not recommend paying full price. As I mentioned, there are far better works on this subject.


Thanks! Been reading "resurrecting sex" by Schnarch lately. Pretty good for those interested, he does tend to not mention the extended period of marital combat required though. The theory is basically correct, if one changes the other has to grow, or leave or course, but he minimizes the months if not years of unhappiness needed to break through. 

Anyway!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. you asked a reasonable question wrapped in extreme sarcasm.
> ...


But you didn’t answer his direct question. Instead you tried to go after me.

Why did you call him big, bad scary 20% Conan? I know he is fully able to absorb your snark, but why did you say that to him? Ready to be honest? Or are you just going to hide behind passive aggression and say oh it was just teasing words that didn’t have any meaning.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

anonmd said:


> You, no. Anyone implying I may be scared off because of your comment - yes!


LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Thanks for the laugh, Corey.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> But you didn’t answer his direct question. Instead you tried to go after me.
> 
> Why did you call him big, bad scary 20% Conan? I know he is fully able to absorb your snark, but why did you say that to him? Ready to be honest? Or are you just going to hide behind passive aggression and say oh it was just teasing words that didn’t have any meaning.


Is this the question from Conan you would like me to answer? 



> There are a lot of men who fit your bait and switch statement as well.
> 
> Should women not listen to anything men say either as a result?


Cause I will, Then I will move on to the underlined which was based on one of your posts. I can not figure out how to use the multi-quote thing.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> > As they should if they want to learn but they shouldn't act like vultures but voyeurs and eavesdroppers instead.
> ...


Yes, they feel like they have some kind of information weapon against women. They love to tell us that we don’t know what we want, that we will actively tell them what we don’t want just to confuse them, and that we are always scheming to **** a better specimen than he is.

But if a man who is actually logical and doesn’t hate women tries to tell them that they are off base, they will turn tail and mutter that he is a KISA loser under their breath. Or that he is a natural and therefore doesn’t know what a normal man goes through.

But he’s right back in there when he can go after a woman and tell her that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about when it comes to women. 

Always the same thing.

If anyone thinks I’m kidding, I’m not. They actually spell this out to each other. They tell each other not to talk to naturals or men who won’t come around to their thinking, and to treat all women like they are clueless hamster minded *****s. They really do!

And somehow the ones who buy into this don’t see why others call them bitter....


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If this works...for you, NS.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> If this works...for you, NS.


Oh dang... I don’t think that’s the animated version.
@EllisRedding can you help a girl out? (Acts helpless and gives Bambi eyes)


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > But you didn’t answer his direct question. Instead you tried to go after me.
> ...


Yes that’s the question.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> It's not about eavesdropping. It's about telling us how they know so much better then we do about how WE feel and what WE want.
> 
> It's actually laughably pathetic.


I believe that is why NS referenced vultures. Voyeurs and eavesdroppers might learn something.:grin2:


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> As they should if they want to learn but they shouldn't act like vultures but voyeurs and eavesdroppers instead.


Oh no. They descend with their great wisdom of what women want.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, they feel like they have some kind of information weapon against women. They love to tell us that we don’t know what we want, that we will actively tell them what we don’t want just to confuse them, and that we are always scheming to **** a better specimen than he is.
> 
> But if a man who is actually logical and doesn’t hate women tries to tell them that they are off base, they will turn tail and mutter that he is a KISA loser under their breath. Or that he is a natural and therefore doesn’t know what a normal man goes through.
> 
> ...



It's called emotional immaturity and....just sad.

I used to try to connect. Now I just have no sympathy. At a certain point, a male (I won't say man) CHOOSES to be this ridiculous.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Oh dang... I don’t think that’s the animated version.
> @EllisRedding can you help a girl out? (Acts helpless and gives Bambi eyes)


Lol, just walked in the house to check my emails quickly before heading back out and I see this!!! Can't find gif to that specific one










Actually, bingo (man I'm good!)


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Did that once. Hated it. Felt more ashamed than ever.
> I am thinking sex therapist / surrogate.


So someone with a different name to get paid to do the same thing?



> Someone who is trained in how to train men. Without shame on either side.


Your prostitute was bearing obvious shame? I mean, shame is ****ty. But it is something we can change within outselves.



> We have vocational training for carpenters and welders and car mechanics. Why not vocational training for sex?


Go for it. There's your first million.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Thanks! Been reading "resurrecting sex" by Schnarch lately. Pretty good for those interested, he does tend to not mention the extended period of *marital combat required* though. The theory is basically correct, if one changes the other has to grow, or leave or course, but he minimizes the months if not years of unhappiness needed to break through.
> 
> Anyway!


What does that mean? Do you think the months/years is a requirement? Well I guess you do since you used the word requirement. I sure don't.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yay, Ellis! My gif hero.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> What does that mean? Do you think the months/years is a requirement? Well I guess you do since you used the word requirement. I sure don't.


Requirement may be the wrong choice of words.

It took over 18 months of resetting things to get my marriage back on track, and nearly 3 years before it was what I would consider awesome again.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Lol, just walked in the house to check my emails quickly before heading back out and I see this!!! Can't find gif to that specific one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Meme master!!!
:toast:


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Meme master!!!
> :toast:


Ask me to recall someone's name I just met 2 minutes ago, not a chance. Ask me to locate or recall a meme/gif, done before you even finish asking lol


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

> There are a lot of men who fit your bait and switch statement as well.
> 
> Should women not listen to anything men say either as a result?


I'd say there are some men who fit the bait and switch statement. I think 'a lot' goes too far. To get to a lot you have to go far beyond the date of marriage to see the drop off and then it wouldn't be bait and switch, at least how I am thinking of the term. I think there are very few men who had sex with a women for a year and thought it was great and then thought it wasn't after a year or two - that is BS. I am not saying that doesn't happen for women, I am not a women, but I am a man and for us / me that is BS. 


As far as should they not listen to men goes. No, I wouldn't say that . I take my commitments pretty seriously, I would think most men do as well. 

But if one hooks up with a lot of unreliable guys maybe they do not and you should not take what they say seriously.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

anonmd said:


> I'd say there are some men who fit the bait and switch statement. I think 'a lot' goes too far. To get to a lot you have to go far beyond the date of marriage to see the drop off and then it wouldn't be bait and switch, at least how I am thinking of the term. I think there are very few men who had sex with a women for a year and thought it was great and then thought it wasn't after a year or two - that is BS. I am not saying that doesn't happen for women, I am not a women, but I am a man and for us / me that is BS.
> 
> 
> As far as should they not listen to men goes. No, I wouldn't say that . I take my commitments pretty seriously, I would think most men do as well.
> ...



So......you get to disagree when we make pronouncements about men. But YOUR pronouncements about women are solid truth.

Okay then lol

I feel sad for you


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Requirement may be the wrong choice of words.
> 
> It took over 18 months of resetting things to get my marriage back on track, and nearly 3 years before it was what I would consider awesome again.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Was it worth it?


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> What does that mean? Do you think the months/years is a requirement? Well I guess you do since you used the word requirement. I sure don't.


Yes, I do. 15 years in, down to once a month if you are lucky, hardcore refuser. Took 4 or 5 years actually, several false starts and backsliding.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

There are plenty of guys who bait and switch. I am guessing more often about their level of true commitment than about the satisfaction level of the sex. But I am sure there are plenty of guys who lie and say the sex is great so their wife won't even consider that maybe he is cheating to have better sex with someone else.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> Was it worth it?


Right now? Yes.

When I went through six months of meeting her needs largely without reciprocity, then a year of reduction of the thermostat? Nope.

It was, at times, gut wrenching. I was not the same person then as I am now, either. 

When it started, I saw two things incorrectly.

1. I was unwilling to walk out of the marriage under any circumstances. This made it really easy to see myself as the victim. You know...in the cage, but the door wasn't locked...yet I was still 'stuck'. Realizing I could allow myself to walk at any time was an important step. It forced me to look at marriage as someplace I wanted to be rather than someplace I had to be.

2. I was insecure about many things, and didn't much like the person I had become. I have accomplished so much in the last six years that I not only know, but now believe, that I am a good man worth loving, and if she isn't willing to do it, there will be someone else who will...namely myself.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> 1. I was unwilling to walk out of the marriage under any circumstances. This made it really easy to see myself as the victim. You know...in the cage, but the door wasn't locked...yet I was still 'stuck'. Realizing I could allow myself to walk at any time was an important step. It forced me to look at marriage as someplace I wanted to be rather than someplace I had to be.
> 
> 2. I was insecure about many things, and didn't much like the person I had become. I have accomplished so much in the last six years that I not only know, but now believe, that I am a good man worth loving, and if she isn't willing to do it, there will be someone else who will...namely myself.


When I see guys who clearly have these two issues working against them, it makes me sad that the only support or info they seem to get is from the red pill or PUA crowd.

When actually, the 2 issues above happen to women also in exactly the same way, and the advice either a man or a woman gets should be about finding self love and self esteem.

But first...they have to be able to see that they are not a victim and they have to not hate themselves so much.

This has NOTHING to do with the opposite gender. It is just a fact. So when the men fly in with the PUA bullcrap towards dudes who just need to understand they have put themselves in the victim chair....

I know you feel the RP stuff helped you back then, so I don't want to harsh on that groove. And I get why it helps some men, it does tell them to stop being victims. It is just that it also tells them they ARE victims, of women. It's like "stop being a whiny victim and man up!", then goes on for 5 chapters about how women victimize men all the time.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Yes, I do. 15 years in, down to once a month if you are lucky, hardcore refuser. Took 4 or 5 years actually, several false starts and backsliding.


This is a requirement for YOU or something so universal that the author should have discussed it?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

anonmd said:


> I'd say there are some men who fit the bait and switch statement. I think 'a lot' goes too far. To get to a lot you have to go far beyond the date of marriage to see the drop off and then it wouldn't be bait and switch, at least how I am thinking of the term. I think there are very few men who had sex with a women for a year and thought it was great and then thought it wasn't after a year or two - that is BS. I am not saying that doesn't happen for women, I am not a women, but I am a man and for us / me that is BS.
> 
> 
> As far as should they not listen to men goes. No, I wouldn't say that . I take my commitments pretty seriously, I would think most men do as well.
> ...


I have had access to the somewhat "hidden" world of womenz and bait and switch happens pretty often.

That aside. You went at FW without any other seeming point than to take a shot.

I pay attention to what a lot of women say because they have a huge commonality, they are women, and they're all individuals as well.

Mrs. Conan is like all womenz and uniquely different. It took a lot of input from a lot of different women to substantially improve our bedroom time as well as other areas.

We are discussing information and how to work with it. I didn't think your point about not being able to trust what any woman says was very valid.

Another thread would be appropriate for decifering men and women language barriers and idiosyncracies about when men or women don't really know themselves and how they will react in a given situation over time.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> So someone with a different name to get paid to do the same thing?


Not the same thing. Prostitute is paid to get you off. Surrogate is paid to teach you how to get her off.

Prostitute is more likely to see her mandate as pretending the guy is better than he actually is. To flatter a fragile male ego. Surrogate is paid to be honest about his ineptness and to give suggestions on how he might improve.



> Go for it. There's your first million.


Surely you know I am too lazy and self-deprecating to take on such a task. I actually tried to build a startup 25 years ago. It was a disaster. Never got off the ground.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Men who have swallowed the red pill are specifically forbidden from talking to men like you, Conan. You are a natural, therefore you do not know what you are doing that works, and also, what works for you won't work for other men because they are not in the 20%.
> 
> On the other hand, men who have swallowed the red pill seem to loooooove coming after women, particularly feminist women, and telling us all about what they know about how women are hypergamous *****s.
> 
> ...


As promised, back again. So, I tend to read multiple posts as a conversation. There was a lot of off thread stuff about sexdar and highly sexual women and men and what not, but then Conan made a comment that actually referred to content in the book. I thought that was interesting, then later he quoted my post which was a response to you agreeing with me (I know you aren't really agreeing with the complete thought), then came to this post. Which triggered my response and off we go. I had asked at least twice whether anyone actually read the book with no response. 

So why did I respond to him, because he talked about the book, then quoted me, and of course it was snarky because I just read this gem which seems directed at me even though it is a response to him. That's my story and I'm sticking to it


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> As promised, back again. So, I tend to read multiple posts as a conversation. There was a lot of off thread stuff about sexdar and highly sexual women and men and what not, but then Conan made a comment that actually referred to content in the book. I thought that was interesting, then later he quoted my post which was a response to you agreeing with me (I know you aren't really agreeing with the complete thought), then came to this post. Which triggered my response and off we go. I had asked at least twice whether anyone actually read the book with no response.
> 
> So why did I respond to him, because he talked about the book, then quoted me, and of course it was snarky because I just read this gem which seems directed at me even though it is a response to him. That's my story and I'm sticking to it


Ok I can buy it.

Sincerely sorry if you really aren't a snarky guy!!  (not that there's anything wrong with being one, just that I accused you of that and it may not be true)

My bad.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is a requirement for YOU or something so universal that the author should have discussed it?


The book ( this other book, not this thread topic book) is pretty long, somewhat academic as most of his books are and so far at 74% though the text there are only a couple of mentions of "oh by the way, this might take a while". I think it is fairly obvious that if sex is so bad that it needs 'restoring' that in many / most / more than a handful of case, it is going to take a while even though he is identifying the magic solution for you. 

Maybe he hits it more in the 25% I haven't gotten to yet, we shall see.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok I can buy it.
> 
> Sincerely sorry if you really aren't a snarky guy!!  (not that there's anything wrong with being one, just that I accused you of that and it may not be true)
> 
> My bad.


I don't mind being accused of being snarky I might choose a different word but snarky is OK.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Thanks! Been reading "resurrecting sex" by Schnarch lately. Pretty good for those interested, he does tend to not mention the extended period of marital combat required though. The theory is basically correct, if one changes the other has to grow, or leave or course, but he minimizes the months if not years of unhappiness needed to break through.
> 
> Anyway!


OP gave us some leeway on this thread so what stands out as helpful for you with Schnarch?

Got some bullet points that hit home with you?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > So someone with a different name to get paid to do the same thing?
> ...


Ok so there are lots of different kinds of sex workers.

And they get to decide what their services are.

So you approach a sex worker and ask her to honestly help you become a proficient lover.

She then tells you if she does that kind of work or not.

Most have no reason to lie. Many take specific requests like that. 

Now, the guy doesn’t really know if what she is teaching him is worth a damn or not until he is with a woman. But generally speaking, if a sex worker is going to take the time to do this, she’s going to give you at least some decent tips.

Then there are sex surrogates who generally only get involved for the education of the patient. Though they may also be sex workers in other capacities outside of that.

There’s also what is called a sex coach. This can mean lots of different things and can be used as a cover for sex worker.

But if it’s meant as it normally is, a sex coach guides you based on talk stuff. They don’t typically get naked with you. They discuss things with you and get an idea of what kind of help you might benefit from.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Depending where you live, there’s typically a short list of what I call ‘third rail’ type conversational topics. 

The single most universal third rail topic has to do with family size. Even the Chinese government, powerful as it was couldn’t pull this one off. 

The UN is very good at predicting human population growth. And they are projecting that we will enter the next century with over 11 billion souls. 





Faithful Wife said:


> Plus it is just so illogical. While we are rampantly overpopulating the earth, someone is worried that this whole man and woman thing may not "work out"?
> 
> @Buddy400 - do you have other fears about the world ending, or catastrophic events? Is fears like this a theme in your life? Only asking because I just can't relate.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> *Man seems pretty ignorant about how powerful his own cultural dictates are. They absolutely over-ride biology.*


How's that?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

red oak said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > *Man seems pretty ignorant about how powerful his own cultural dictates are. They absolutely over-ride biology.*
> ...


Well I meant people are pretty ignorant, not men specifically (ie: mankind).

Do you really still want the rest of the answer now that I’ve qualified that part? I’m thinking maybe not. I agree the wording made it confusing and you were asking why men more than women do that...but that’s not what I meant.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well I meant people are pretty ignorant, not men specifically (ie: mankind).
> 
> Do you really still want the rest of the answer now that I’ve qualified that part? I’m thinking maybe not. I agree the wording made it confusing and you were asking why men more than women do that...but that’s not what I meant.


LOL.
I knew you meant mankind. Thanks for clarifying though.

I really curious how it's viewed as nurture over nature.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

red oak said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Well I meant people are pretty ignorant, not men specifically (ie: mankind).
> ...


People in western cultures tend to think that their own lives are exactly where nature intended us to with via evolution.

So they study themselves and then ask “how and why did evolution make us this way?”

Meanwhile, people all over the world in different cultures have different views, attitudes, rituals, and values surrounding sex.

But for some reason I can’t fathom, those other people don’t register with those seeking to show that we in the western world are the epitome of evolution.

There is not one iota of evidence that any one of these other cultures is less evolved than we are, and for all we know, we were a mutation and nature actually intended for us all to be more similar to this or that tribe or culture (pick any of them, there’s no list from Mother Nature telling us any one of them is “most evolved”.)


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Plus it is just so illogical. While we are rampantly overpopulating the earth, someone is worried that this whole man and woman thing may not "work out"?
> 
> @Buddy400 - do you have other fears about the world ending, or catastrophic events? Is fears like this a theme in your life? Only asking because I just can't relate.


It's interesting that someone who's convinced that we're "rampantly overpopulating the earth" thinks that I am the one worrying too much about the "world ending".

On another post you asked if I was old (I'd have quoted it but it just takes too damn long to find individual posts). That's a fair question. The answer is "yes", I'm 64. However, I do remember when I was young and my parent's generation was convinced that Rock and Roll signaled the end of civilization, so I've fought being one of "those people". It's true that every generation seems to think that the world is going to hell, but that doesn't mean that, in some ways, they're wrong. 

I'm not coming to this topic from a moralistic point of view. I'm an agnostic, so it's not religion. I'm a libertarian so, even though I may have and value certain moral codes, I have no interest in forcing others to follow them. I'm not anti-sex. I was fine with my kids (including my daughter) having sex in their rooms in our house.

And it's not that I'm obsessed with men, women and sex. I read a LOT about current events, policy, economics and history and have a lot of thoughts about that stuff as well (and none of it affects me personally).

I watch documentaries of Martin Luther King, the Civil Rights Movement and the Freedom Riders and my eyes fill with tears at their bravery and commitment to such a worthy cause. I watched Ken Burn's documentary about Jazz the other day and mocked the close mindedness of those that thought that Jazz was the "Devil's music. I watched a documentary about Janet Guthrie (the first high profile female race car driver) and was horrified at the way she was treated and the things men said about her (it's too easy to forget just how bad things really used to be). So, I'm hardly a social or cultural prude. 

Considering the possible adverse affects of certain policy or social norms isn't necessarily a waste of time nor does it mean that anyone who does so is an old fogey (though some certainly are). As an example, let's assume (just for the sake of argument, it doesn't mean you are conceding that its true) that single parenthood is a problem for (at least) the lower middle class and the poor (and there are lots of non-conservatives who believe this is true). Did certain legislation or the support for certain social memes make the situation worse? Maybe. It's worth thinking about. 

It's also true that the problems with marriage and sex discussed here are largely top 10% problems that primarily concern the top socioeconomic groups (like getting into a top tier college or the fact that your house cleaning service never puts the stuff in your bathroom back in the right place after they clean). Lower working class single mothers trying to put food on the table for their family and pay the medical bills would likely consider themselves lucky to have a sub par sex life at the top of their list of concerns.

It's also interesting that those most financially able to have kids out of wedlock, avoid getting married and getting divorced are doing nothing of the sort. Well educated, financially well off men and women are getting married (although later in life) and staying married.

I wouldn't compel anyone to do anything even if I could.

The best I would hope for would be to be the voice that occasionally says "yes, but have you thought about *this*?".


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> People in western cultures tend to think that their own lives are exactly where nature intended us to with via evolution.
> 
> So they study themselves and then ask “how and why did evolution make us this way?”
> 
> ...


Very logical.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> There is not one iota of evidence that any one of these other cultures is less evolved than we are, and for all we know, we were a mutation and nature actually intended for us all to be more similar to this or that tribe or culture (pick any of them, there’s no list from Mother Nature telling us any one of them is “most evolved”.)


One group may evolve to survive in the desert and another evolved to survive in the arctic.

Neither group is "more evolved".


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> It's interesting that someone who's convinced that we're "rampantly overpopulating the earth" thinks that I am the one worrying too much about the "world ending".
> 
> On another post you asked if I was old (I'd have quoted it but it just takes too damn long to find individual posts). That's a fair question. The answer is "yes", I'm 64. However, I do remember when I was young and my parent's generation was convinced that Rock and Roll signaled the end of civilization, so I've fought being one of "those people". It's true that every generation seems to think that the world is going to hell, but that doesn't mean that, in some ways, they're wrong.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have read Dream Hoarders and or The Bell Curve. Hope I am remembering the titles correctly.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Plus it is just so illogical. While we are rampantly overpopulating the earth, someone is worried that this whole man and woman thing may not "work out"?
> ...


Ok, I totally hear ya. You are basically just concerned for humanity.

I am as well. I just focus on what I can and cannot actually change.

Although I view humans as over populating the earth, I don’t worry about this because I trust the earth will kick off as many of us as it needs to. The only way I can affect this is to not have too many kids myself, and to encourage my kids to not have a **** ton of kids.

Done.

All the rest that you mentioned, I only have thoughts about actual people and actual situations I know about personally. I don’t worry globally. I have no affect there.

I do get involved quite vigorously in many situations within my family, friends, and work communities. Outside of them, I don’t worry about the world turning because it just turns.

I feel I can see some effects of the work I have done in my communities that have some more expanded ripples of good beyond my little circles, and that’s how slowly I affect the world.

No time spent on trying to solve the unsolvable, infinity number of the worlds problems. I do send good energy to the world and mankind at large though.

I understand your banter more now. You are concerned for the world and look for ways you can help, which may include educating yourself and then of course like me you also directly affect those close to you. But you like the mind exercises of looking for global answers, where I do not.

Cheers!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > There is not one iota of evidence that any one of these other cultures is less evolved than we are, and for all we know, we were a mutation and nature actually intended for us all to be more similar to this or that tribe or culture (pick any of them, there’s no list from Mother Nature telling us any one of them is “most evolved”.)
> ...


Which I why I personally get more out of studying the sex lives of tribal people and other less known cultures. IMO, some of them are definitely more evolved than large numbers of people in the US.

Then I’ll come to TAM and some red pill guy is telling everyone that science declares their one narrow vision of how men and women and sex are as the one evolutionary truth.

Annoying and so bizarre to me that it is not obvious to everyone that “we” in our tiny slice of the history of all of sex by mankind, are not the top of the heap. We are arrogant to think otherwise. 

(None of that includes any thoughts I have about you).


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,
The post below is an outlier on the low side from your normal posts. You are mixing together evolutionary development and culture in a fairly casual way. 

I don’t think Americans or Westerners in general are genetically different in a meaningful way from the rest of the world. 

As for my daughters, I am grateful they didn’t grow up in one of the many places where women are treated very poorly in terms of genital circumcision, or can’t drive a car or need a male guardian to allow them to .......

And I believe that while Western cultures continue to make strides towards real gender equality, they don’t do stuff like the Taliban controlled areas of Afghanistan which prohibit girls above a young age from going to school.

And yes - this isn’t about different but equal. This is about different and better. I use the term western very loosely, as I would happily live in Singapore. 





Faithful Wife said:


> People in western cultures tend to think that their own lives are exactly where nature intended us to with via evolution.
> 
> So they study themselves and then ask “how and why did evolution make us this way?”
> 
> ...


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> But you like the mind exercises of looking for global answers, where I do not.


There is the upside that my wife thinks I'm the most interesting man in the world 

Which shows just how lucky I am, most women would be bored to death.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> FW,
> The post below is an outlier on the low side from your normal posts. You are mixing together evolutionary development and culture in a fairly casual way.
> 
> I don’t think Americans or Westerners in general are genetically different in a meaningful way from the rest of the world.
> ...


Interesting. When I wrote my post, I did not give any thought to cultures which treat women (or anyone) horribly, because I am thinking of the literally hundreds of other, great cultures with awesome sex customs and practices.

I would be very curious how the hetero bed death problem statistics measure up in other countries, cultures, and including tribal and small remote cultures. This is where I think we might find that this is probably a western problem, and that’s by factoring out the abusive horrible cultures and just looking at the ones where everyone seems to be well adjusted.

I personally do not believe that what we would call western culture is definitely the best when it comes to sex. I think we have a lot of things right. Many we have bass ackwards.

Just my opinions.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Strong interpersonal compatibility is so powerful. For me, M2 is an exceptional companion for a lot of reasons including: curious about the world, quick analytical mind, killer sense of humor, loves doing puzzle books with me. 




Buddy400 said:


> There is the upside that my wife thinks I'm the most interesting man in the world
> 
> Which shows just how lucky I am, most women would be bored to death.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree that where sex is concerned we aren’t so good. As to what other cultures do, well that is an area I’m not well educated about. 





Faithful Wife said:


> Interesting. When I wrote my post, I did not give any thought to cultures which treat women (or anyone) horribly, because I am thinking of the literally hundreds of other, great cultures with awesome sex customs and practices.
> 
> I would be very curious how the hetero bed death problem statistics measure up in other countries, cultures, and including tribal and small remote cultures. This is where I think we might find that this is probably a western problem, and that’s by factoring out the abusive horrible cultures and just looking at the ones where everyone seems to be well adjusted.
> 
> ...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I agree that where sex is concerned we aren’t so good. As to what other cultures do, well that is an area I’m not well educated about.


It’s very fun and erotic to read about the sex lives of people in other cultures. And historical cultures.

And no I don’t mean books with pictures. 

Other than pictures of current and ancient erotic art. Love those pictures. :grin2:


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> There is the upside that my wife thinks I'm the most interesting man in the world
> 
> Which shows just how lucky I am, most women would be bored to death.


I think it shows what I’ve been saying all along.

If you do find the right formula, both people feel amazing about each other and the sex is always good.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Not the same thing. Prostitute is paid to get you off. Surrogate is paid to teach you how to get her off.


Cool. 


> Prostitute is more likely to see her mandate as pretending the guy is better than he actually is.


Can't say I know a ton about prostitutes. Only know one guy who has told me about it, and that was not his experience. But sure, I have no proble seeing that.

Thanks.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

red oak said:


> LOL.
> I knew you meant mankind. Thanks for clarifying though.
> 
> I really curious how it's viewed as nurture over nature.


Personally, I think it is both. But many people lose sight of the nurture part except to bemoan how their spouse is AFU because of it.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> FW,
> The post below is an outlier on the low side from your normal posts. You are mixing together evolutionary development and culture in a fairly casual way.
> 
> I don’t think Americans or Westerners in general are genetically different in a meaningful way from the rest of the world.
> ...


That reads a lot to me like my feelings are hurt because you don't recognize my culture as better than those guys over there -- cultures that she did not even mention. What am I missing?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> That reads a lot to me like my feelings are hurt because you don't recognize my culture as better than those guys over there -- cultures that she did not even mention. What am I missing?


Which actually made my point. But I knew pointing that out wasn’t going to be received well.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> FW,
> The post below is an outlier on the low side from your normal posts. You are mixing together evolutionary development and culture in a fairly casual way.
> 
> I don’t think Americans or Westerners in general are genetically different in a meaningful way from the rest of the world.
> ...


For me this is funny in a sad way. 
Mention of genital circumcision of females in other countries yet in US there is Male circumcision few will discuss. 

On all cultures who do practice circumcision they all have one thing in common. Tribal cultures who do got it elsewhere.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

red oak said:


> For me this is funny in a sad way.
> Mention of genital circumcision of females in other countries yet in US there is Male circumcision few will discuss.


I will! Not a fan! But ... religion.

Oh and penis worship - can't make Dad feel bad about his penis by having a kid witihout the "same".


> On all cultures who do practice circumcision they all have one thing in common. Tribal cultures who do got it elsewhere.


Huh? What does that mean?


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

This thread got away from me yesterday, so just going to post a few things rumbling around in the emptiness that is my head.

Regarding my post on male vs female desire, my point wasn't to imply that only men have to deal with females losing desire as it clearly goes both ways. My question was more along the lines if it is treated differently. 

My perception from TAM and elsewhere, if a female states that her SO shows lack of desire, it seems the common responses are 1) he has low t 2) he is gay 3) he is cheating or 4) he has porn issues. Now switch around where female has lost desire, and you commonly see 1) female sexuality is complicated 2) he is not good in bed 3) he is not doing enough to help around the house, etc...

Now, I am not saying that the above is universal, but on a general basis, this s what I have observed (i am sure others here may have different observations which is fine). Maybe this was part of what @Buddy400 was trying to state, that in both cases it seems like it is the guy causing the issues and his job to fix.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> This thread got away from me yesterday, so just going to post a few things rumbling around in the emptiness that is my head.
> 
> Regarding my post on male vs female desire, my point wasn't to imply that only men have to deal with females losing desire as it clearly goes both ways. My question was more along the lines if it is treated differently.
> 
> ...


Good point about perception and response.

I certainly have a little bit of bias towards that line of thought or at least less sympathy for a low libido man.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I will! Not a fan! But ... religion.
> 
> Oh and penis worship - can't make Dad feel bad about his penis by having a kid witihout the "same".
> 
> ...


Referencing early tribal societies who seemingly far back practiced genital mutilations. Most acquired it from very early missionaries. I don't remember if it was tertulian or another who wanted some way to quell sexual desires.

ETA: most recent example I can think of was the sick prick kellog who advocated silver sutures in an infant's penis to cause pain if they got and erection so they would infer sex with pain, and carbolic acid on the clitoris of girls to get the same inference.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I think @EllisRedding and I are the same guy *(only he's better looking).*
> 
> ...


Well, The main reason I am replying to this, felt the need to really bring attention to the above bolded 

Funny thing about the last two years, by all definitions we were in a sexless marriage. Even now when talking to my W, she still seems shocked at this like it wasn't really that bad. I mentioned to her that is was bad enough that I was actually dreading certain situations where sex would come up, was coming up with ways to avoid, considered cancelling vacation time, etc... It is interesting talking about it now as we look back at how we viewed things.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Good point about perception and response.
> 
> I certainly have a little bit of bias towards that line of thought or at least less sympathy for a low libido man.


Yeah, I do understand that we all have our own biases and experiences which will shape how we perceive and respond to posts here and elsewhere.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> This thread got away from me yesterday, so just going to post a few things rumbling around in the emptiness that is my head.
> 
> Regarding my post on male vs female desire, my point wasn't to imply that only men have to deal with females losing desire as it clearly goes both ways. My question was more along the lines if it is treated differently.
> 
> ...


Well when it’s me, and a woman says her man has lost desire, I don’t assume any of the things you listed. I assume he is LD.

Seems a lot of people don’t actually believe men are ever LD. As I have personally encountered many, including ones who will say straight up that people are being too broad when they say that all the men want all the sex. 

And when a wife loses desire, I want to know if she is just LD or if there is something else going on. Because LD people just aren’t going to magically change into nymphos, whether male or female. 

On this particular topic, of the statistical fact that women (in whatever part of the world was surveyed) tend to lose their desire for one man over time. Now we are not talking about someone specific, so we can’t drill down to individual cases. When asked to make a guess as to why this might occur, I came up with:

1. It’s possible that nature didn’t desire for us to be together longer than it takes to raise kids.

2. It’s possible that there is a direct correlation between the statistical fact that men in LTR’s gain weight, their T goes down and their estrogen goes up, and the fact that women’s desire for that one man goes away.

So...what you seem to be saying, is that this does not place any burden to “do something about it” on the woman. You’re saying that the man should lose weight, but she doesn’t need to do anything.

I guess I don’t understand why you (maybe lots of guys) can’t seem to accept that this statistic may just continue on. That there may not be anything men can do about it. It’s like you want an answer “what WILL make her desire me and be 100% effective?” and that if you can’t get an answer to that, then whatever we say sounds like “blame the man”.

It’s not blame. It’s just the way it is. Within your own relationship (anyone), that’s the only place where you have any influence over these dynamics. 

So I feel like I’m fair when dealing with an individual case, and I’m trying to be logical when offering suggestions on why this may be happening on the macro level. Yet since none of these give answers that will work every time...it’s never really acceptable. In fact, women here have been accused of being obtuse when we are trying to discuss this topic. Apparently because men can’t accept that there may not be an answer that they will like or that will change anything.

I would not rest until I had answers in my own relationship if there was a problem. Including if the problem was me and I wasn’t approaching things in a way that would allow my desire to flow. But I don’t think most people make their sex life a priority as much as I do nor study sex in general as much.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

EllisRedding said:


> This thread got away from me yesterday, so just going to post a few things rumbling around in the emptiness that is my head.
> 
> Regarding my post on male vs female desire, my point wasn't to imply that only men have to deal with females losing desire as it clearly goes both ways. My question was more along the lines if it is treated differently.
> 
> ...


Much of both cases is an unconscious repression leading to sublimation of a finite energy.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> So...what you seem to be saying, is that this does not place any burden to “do something about it” on the woman. You’re saying that the man should lose weight, but she doesn’t need to do anything.
> 
> I guess I don’t understand why you (maybe lots of guys) can’t seem to accept that this statistic may just continue on. That there may not be anything men can do about it. It’s like you want an answer “what WILL make her desire me and be 100% effective?” and that if you can’t get an answer to that, then whatever we say sounds like “blame the man”.


Just snipping this section (I appreciate your entire post FW). I am not sure why, but you seem to be taking my posts to some other place that isn't really what I am talking about  I am actually not saying any of this. I am not saying the burden falls solely on the guy and I don't believe anywhere I stated I don't accept some statistic. My post was solely to point out the differences (based on my perception) in how men and women are treated differently where desire is an issue.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Just snipping this section (I appreciate your entire post FW). I am not sure why, but you seem to be taking my posts to some other place that isn't really what I am talking about  I am actually not saying any of this. I am not saying the burden falls solely on the guy and I don't believe anywhere I stated I don't accept some statistic. My post was solely to point out the differences (based on my perception) in how men and women are treated differently where desire is an issue.


I do hear you. You had quoted a post of Buddy’s that was in response to one of mine, so I interjected part of what my post was about.

Wait...no you didn’t quote my post.

Never mind!


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I do hear you. You had quoted a post of Buddy’s that was in response to one of mine, so I interjected part of what my post was about.
> 
> Wait...no you didn’t quote my post.
> 
> Never mind!


No worries FW, my post wasn't really meant to be directed at anyone here specifically (only brought up Buddy b/c I think my perception may have to some extent been what he was stating). Just some thoughts in the noggin 

The post of yours that I quoted was about how good looking I am


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I guess I don’t understand why you (maybe lots of guys) can’t seem to accept that this statistic may just continue on. That there may not be anything men can do about it. It’s like you want an answer “what WILL make her desire me and be 100% effective?” and that if you can’t get an answer to that, then whatever we say sounds like “blame the man”.
> 
> It’s not blame. It’s just the way it is.


Bingo. Must be the front row. But I don't WAAAAANT it to be like that. Um. Tough?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Red,
I don’t believe anyone with even a little knowledge of anatomy would compare female circumcision with male. 





red oak said:


> For me this is funny in a sad way.
> Mention of genital circumcision of females in other countries yet in US there is Male circumcision few will discuss.
> 
> On all cultures who do practice circumcision they all have one thing in common. Tribal cultures who do got it elsewhere.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> This thread got away from me yesterday, so just going to post a few things rumbling around in the emptiness that is my head.
> 
> Regarding my post on male vs female desire, my point wasn't to imply that only men have to deal with females losing desire as it clearly goes both ways. My question was more along the lines if it is treated differently.
> 
> ...


This just circles back around to what we were taught in kindergarten...Girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice, boys are made of snips and snails and puppy dog tails, which is a very common theme through many of the subject frequently discussed here.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Bingo. Must be the front row. But I don't WAAAAANT it to be like that. Um. Tough?


Yes. But I also get Ellis saying “wait, that’s not what I said”...

So it must be the drive by guys we get this sentiment from. And not the Buddy’s and Ellis’s.

And then when we address the drive bys along with our awesome TAM men who are actually trying to make an assessment of the world for their own reasons, then it sounds like we are putting words in their mouths.

I do want to be able to say yeah, sorry, tough?

But don’t want to say that to the guys who are engaging us genuinely. On the other hand, I do not actually know how to articulate an answer to what @EllisRedding was really saying without bringing in the language I would use in response to drive bys.

I am also trying not to overlay red pill stuff on to what every guy is saying, but I sometimes do that because I forget who is for it and who isn’t. So now I try very hard to just make separate paragraphs and statements about red pill or other topics that seem related to me but that the person I’m talking to didn’t actually bring up.

It’s a good communication exercise for me to try to make better statements....it is not easy, which is why it’s good for me. Working on it!


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes. But I also get Ellis saying “wait, that’s not what I said”...
> 
> So it must be the drive by guys we get this sentiment from. And not the Buddy’s and Ellis’s.


Not Ellis, for sure.


----------



## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well when it’s me, and a woman says her man has lost desire, I don’t assume any of the things you listed. I assume he is LD.
> 
> Seems a lot of people don’t actually believe men are ever LD. As I have personally encountered many, including ones who will say straight up that people are being too broad when they say that all the men want all the sex.
> 
> And when a wife loses desire, I want to know if she is just LD *or if there is something else going on*. Because LD people just aren’t going to magically change into nymphos, whether male or female.


Whether conscious or not, your statement here seems to back up the point that @EllisRedding made about gender bias in the perception of what's to blame for loss of sexual desire. In the case of a man, you "assume he is LD." In the case of a woman, you acknowledge that there may be something else going on. Now, maybe I'm parsing your words too finely, and the rest of your post (which I completely agree with) seems to suggest that, but that's how the above came across to me.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Satisfied Mind said:


> Whether conscious or not, your statement here seems to back up the point that @EllisRedding made about gender bias in the perception of what's to blame for loss of sexual desire. In the case of a man, you "assume he is LD." In the case of a woman, you acknowledge that there may be something else going on. Now, maybe I'm parsing your words too finely, and the rest of your post (which I completely agree with) seems to suggest that, but that's how the above came across to me.


I almost replied to this. In NO WAY do I assume LD. There is sooooo muuuuuch possible there.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I finally found a topic where the two of you prefer political correctness to reality.

Don’t feel bad, everyone has at least one blind spot. 




NobodySpecial said:


> That reads a lot to me like my feelings are hurt because you don't recognize my culture as better than those guys over there -- cultures that she did not even mention. What am I missing?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> I finally found a topic where the two of you prefer political correctness to reality.
> 
> Don’t feel bad, everyone has at least one blind spot.


So you don't want to qualify what you said to share what you mean rather than getting pissy? Weird for you.

ETA: I am actually wondering what that even means? That somehow conflates with thinking western lack of acceptance of genital mutilation is not a good thing?


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I've pretty much come full circle on this whole female sexual desire piece.

I no longer feel compelled to try to influence a females sexual desire at all.

This is also probably due a drop in my own drive over the last several years.

My wife when we first met, as per most honeymoon phases, really high drive. She also made it clear that she had to chase her ex husband who was very LD.

Prior to about 2 years ago, I would definitely put my wife in the high sexual response category. 

Now, my wife is no drive, post-menopause. Which I'll be clear, again I don't have an issue with because we do still have sex with a frequency we are both happy with. 

Were I to be pursuing sex 2 or 3 times a week now, or focused on trying to make her feel more sexual ... I'm pretty confident that our relationship would go south within a matter of months on her part. Were she to develop a complete aversion to any sex, or expression of affection, as my ex did, it would go south quick on my part. I'd be gone.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Satisfied Mind said:


> Whether conscious or not, your statement here seems to back up the point that @EllisRedding made about gender bias in the perception of what's to blame for loss of sexual desire. In the case of a man, you "assume he is LD." In the case of a woman, you acknowledge that there may be something else going on. Now, maybe I'm parsing your words too finely, and the rest of your post (which I completely agree with) seems to suggest that, but that's how the above came across to me.


Point taken but I will clarify...

When I said is something else going on, I meant within her. Is she recovering from some kind of hormonal imbalance (including pregnancy). Has she gained a ton of weight (lowers your sex drive and makes you feel unsexy). This kind of thing.

So if we are going to label it such, these things would be on HER plate. They may not be entirely under her control as in hormones, but it’s still on her side of the line.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> So I feel like I’m fair when dealing with an individual case, and I’m trying to be logical when offering suggestions on why this may be happening on the macro level.


OK, one other snippet here. I know it is just a quick statement, but actually something I think important to highlight (as least for me). It is important to look at the macro level or what statistics point to. I think however, it is easy to just focus on that and not also look at the individual (which as you state above, you do in fact do).

If you look at my situation, I have gotten some very good advice from yourself, buddy, and several others (who didn't just blanket me in to the typical "macro" level stuff and instead looked closer at the individuals involved). However, on the other side I have gotten some horrible advice here lol, usually based on the typical boilerplate responses. I should give an ultimatum (do me or I leave). It is unnatural for my W, can't make her be a different person. Just focus on myself, she won't change, etc... If I had done any of this, either my W would be having sex with me out of fear (just think about the resentment...) or we would become another divorce statistic (not really great pictures to paint either way!).

You have those who will ignore the macro level when there is a lot of value there (mostly b/c it conflicts with what they want to believe is the truth). On the other side, you have those who will buy into it and apply it to everyone (why not, makes the answers easy if that were the case)


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> OK, one other snippet here. I know it is just a quick statement, but actually something I think important to highlight (as least for me). It is important to look at the macro level or what statistics point to. I think however, it is easy to just focus on that and not also look at the individual (which as you state above, you do in fact do).
> 
> If you look at my situation, I have gotten some very good advice from yourself, buddy, and several others (who didn't just blanket me in to the typical "macro" level stuff and instead looked closer at the individuals involved). However, on the other side I have gotten some horrible advice here lol, usually based on the typical boilerplate responses. I should give an ultimatum (do me or I leave). It is unnatural for my W, can't make her be a different person. Just focus on myself, she won't change, etc... If I had done any of this, either my W would be having sex with me out of fear (just think about the resentment...) or we would become another divorce statistic (not really great pictures to paint either way!).
> 
> You have those who will ignore the macro level when there is a lot of value there (mostly b/c it conflicts with what they want to believe is the truth). On the other side, you have those who will buy into it and apply it to everyone (why not, makes the answers easy if that were the case)


I've definitely been guilty of applying macro level advice but it always seems that some macro elements are in play with most cases.

It is also sometimes hard to get good communication through the internet. Someone could be trying to describe one situation and it looks quite different from the other side of the screen until more details show up.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I've definitely been guilty of applying macro level advice but it always seems that some macro elements are in play with most cases.
> 
> It is also sometimes hard to get good communication through the internet. Someone could be trying to describe one situation and it looks quite different from the other side of the screen until more details show up.


Also, at least on TAM, we are only ever getting one side of the story...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> OK, one other snippet here. I know it is just a quick statement, but actually something I think important to highlight (as least for me). It is important to look at the macro level or what statistics point to. I think however, it is easy to just focus on that and not also look at the individual (which as you state above, you do in fact do).
> 
> If you look at my situation, I have gotten some very good advice from yourself, buddy, and several others (who didn't just blanket me in to the typical "macro" level stuff and instead looked closer at the individuals involved). However, on the other side I have gotten some horrible advice here lol, usually based on the typical boilerplate responses. I should give an ultimatum (do me or I leave). It is unnatural for my W, can't make her be a different person. Just focus on myself, she won't change, etc... If I had done any of this, either my W would be having sex with me out of fear (just think about the resentment...) or we would become another divorce statistic (not really great pictures to paint either way!).
> 
> You have those who will ignore the macro level when there is a lot of value there (mostly b/c it conflicts with what they want to believe is the truth). On the other side, you have those who will buy into it and apply it to everyone (why not, makes the answers easy if that were the case)


I agree, and I was always shaking my head when they would say that stuff to you.

I always felt that you two needed to communicate better. You also revealed the low T and depression, so I knew you would have to deal with those.

Whatever her issues were, I knew she would have to deal with them.

I also thought it sounded all along like this one could be worked through.

I think these are the things I have always said to you as well. When I would offer anything. Which wasn't often because you did not ask for suggestions often. But sometimes you would so I would offer.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I almost replied to this. In NO WAY do I assume LD. There is sooooo muuuuuch possible there.


I said when it is a man, I assume he is LD. This is because the most typical posts we have from women who are with a man who doesn't desire more sex with them, the woman also discloses things like "he's never really been all that sexual", or "he says all the time he doesn't get it why everyone is so obsessed with sex, I'm just not that way".

These are the words of an LD man. And usually a woman finding her way here repeats a version of this same scenario. In these cases, usually it turns out there is not going to be a magic button she can push to bring his drive up, because there isn't one to bring up. I can name quite a few stories like this from TAM (the Curious Wife is one).

Then there are other cases where she is giving us specific info that points to something *other* than him being LD, and in those cases I do not assume he is LD. I ask questions about the other info.

ETA: whereas I agree with Ellis when he said most people assume an LD man is actually cheating or gay. In fact, most people don't even believe LD men exist. I assume they DO exist and that they are not rare.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I said when it is a man, I assume he is LD. This is because the most typical posts we have from women who are with a man who doesn't desire more sex with them, the woman also discloses things like "he's never really been all that sexual", or "he says all the time he doesn't get it why everyone is so obsessed with sex, I'm just not that way".
> 
> These are the words of an LD man. And usually a woman finding her way here repeats a version of this same scenario. In these cases, usually it turns out there is not going to be a magic button she can push to bring his drive up, because there isn't one to bring up. I can name quite a few stories like this from TAM (the Curious Wife is one).
> 
> ...


And people regularly assume that an LD woman is simply LD in response to something outside herself, and the advice typically goes back to what is her partner doing to mitigate the outside influences.

Both scenarios place the impetus on the man.

TAM is one of the few places that actually goes beyond those notions, and looks at both side in order to figure out what is going on. Though that is not always the initial direction.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> And people regularly assume that an LD woman is simply LD in response to something outside herself....


I do not.

For instance, there is a thread where the only info we have is that he wants more and doesn't know if he should just go for it, after apparently not going for it any time before that in the past 20 years with her.

My assumption is that both are LD, he just wants it a bit more often. Neither will change, and both will end up accepting things as they are, because they basically are a match.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

My favorite exchanges here are from the guys who say: nothing has changed, why has our sex life disappeared. I doubt anything kills a sex life faster than boredom. And nothing has changed is the one thing that ensures boredom. 




EllisRedding said:


> OK, one other snippet here. I know it is just a quick statement, but actually something I think important to highlight (as least for me). It is important to look at the macro level or what statistics point to. I think however, it is easy to just focus on that and not also look at the individual (which as you state above, you do in fact do).
> 
> If you look at my situation, I have gotten some very good advice from yourself, buddy, and several others (who didn't just blanket me in to the typical "macro" level stuff and instead looked closer at the individuals involved). However, on the other side I have gotten some horrible advice here lol, usually based on the typical boilerplate responses. I should give an ultimatum (do me or I leave). It is unnatural for my W, can't make her be a different person. Just focus on myself, she won't change, etc... If I had done any of this, either my W would be having sex with me out of fear (just think about the resentment...) or we would become another divorce statistic (not really great pictures to paint either way!).
> 
> You have those who will ignore the macro level when there is a lot of value there (mostly b/c it conflicts with what they want to believe is the truth). On the other side, you have those who will buy into it and apply it to everyone (why not, makes the answers easy if that were the case)


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> Red,
> I don’t believe anyone with even a little knowledge of anatomy would compare female circumcision with male.


Psychological scaring is the same.

Anatomically both remove nerve endings which make sex more pleasurable, but still allow both to experience orgasm, although making more prone to premature ejaculation for men while at same time creating difficulty for a woman to orgasm.

I digress as not to thread jack.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And I reluctantly observe that: The torch carrying mob of anti LD men on TAM is universally nasty to self acknowledged LD posters. As a result, someone would have to be insane and suicidal to come on here and say: 

I’m bored. He’s boring to me. Who cares about fault, I’m talking about desire. How can I get excited when: I know exactly what he is going to do, and when, and for how long. And God forbid I actually let on that I’m bored or not all that turned on and he quietly loses his mind. 

Boredom is bad enough. Pretending in and of itself is kind of depressing. But the combo - is toxic. 





MEM2020 said:


> My favorite exchanges here are from the guys who say: nothing has changed, why has our sex life disappeared. I doubt anything kills a sex life faster than boredom. And nothing has changed is the one thing that ensures boredom.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> And I reluctantly observe that: The torch carrying mob of anti LD men on TAM is universally nasty to self acknowledged LD posters. As a result, someone would have to be insane and suicidal to come on here and say:
> 
> I’m bored. He’s boring to me. Who cares about fault, I’m talking about desire. How can I get excited when: I know exactly what he is going to do, and when, and for how long. And God forbid I actually let on that I’m bored or not all that turned on and he quietly loses his mind.
> 
> Boredom is bad enough. Pretending in and of itself is kind of depressing. But the combo - is toxic.


We do have women who say this. They don't stick around long because there's no cure.


----------



## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

EllisRedding said:


> OK, one other snippet here. I know it is just a quick statement, but actually something I think important to highlight (as least for me). It is important to look at the macro level or what statistics point to. I think however, it is easy to just focus on that and not also look at the individual (which as you state above, you do in fact do).
> 
> If you look at my situation, I have gotten some very good advice from yourself, buddy, and several others (who didn't just blanket me in to the typical "macro" level stuff and instead looked closer at the individuals involved). However, on the other side I have gotten some horrible advice here lol, usually based on the typical boilerplate responses. I should give an ultimatum (do me or I leave). It is unnatural for my W, can't make her be a different person. Just focus on myself, she won't change, etc... If I had done any of this, either my W would be having sex with me out of fear (just think about the resentment...) or we would become another divorce statistic (not really great pictures to paint either way!).
> 
> You have those who will ignore the macro level when there is a lot of value there (mostly b/c it conflicts with what they want to believe is the truth). On the other side, you have those who will buy into it and apply it to everyone (why not, makes the answers easy if that were the case)


Some of the worst advice I see here on TAM happens when macro level generalizations are applied to specific posters without real reference to the information they provide.

Echoing your point, what I really appreciate about FW, N/S and others here is that they are cognizant of the macro level information, but don't attempt to shoehorn it to fit specific situations. Instead, they're usually using it to refute bad generalizations to the contrary.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> And I reluctantly observe that: The torch carrying mob of anti LD men on TAM is universally nasty to self acknowledged LD posters. As a result, someone would have to be insane and suicidal to come on here and say:
> 
> I’m bored. He’s boring to me. Who cares about fault, I’m talking about desire. How can I get excited when: I know exactly what he is going to do, and when, and for how long. And God forbid I actually let on that I’m bored or not all that turned on and he quietly loses his mind.
> 
> Boredom is bad enough. Pretending in and of itself is kind of depressing. But the combo - is toxic.


Wow. That just kind of assumes that boredom is the problem and the guy is the reason for the boredom. It seems that the guys who have been on this site lamenting lackluster lady lust have always tried to keep things fresh in the relationship, both in and out of the bedroom.

I would also add that my wife is not adventurous. She can only be comfortable enough to enjoy it if it doesn't stay too far from a script she already knows works for her. Most of our attempts to add to our repertoire have failed because she finds it more satisfying to stick with the good ol' tried and true.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

MEM2020 said:


> My favorite exchanges here are from the guys who say: nothing has changed, why has our sex life disappeared. I doubt anything kills a sex life faster than boredom. And nothing has changed is the one thing that ensures boredom.





MEM2020 said:


> And I reluctantly observe that: The torch carrying mob of anti LD men on TAM is universally nasty to self acknowledged LD posters. As a result, someone would have to be insane and suicidal to come on here and say:
> 
> I’m bored. He’s boring to me. Who cares about fault, I’m talking about desire. How can I get excited when: I know exactly what he is going to do, and when, and for how long. And God forbid I actually let on that I’m bored or not all that turned on and he quietly loses his mind.
> 
> Boredom is bad enough. Pretending in and of itself is kind of depressing. But the combo - is toxic.


I wish I could like this more than once. Unfortunately, it will never (rarely?) be heard and taken to heart by those who really need to understand it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I guess it was fun untli everyone decided it was a blame game! Again.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Wow. That just kind of assumes that boredom is the problem and the guy is the reason for the boredom. It seems that the guys who have been on this site lamenting lackluster lady lust have always tried to keep things fresh in the relationship, both in and out of the bedroom.
> 
> I would also add that my wife is not adventurous. She can only be comfortable enough to enjoy it if it doesn't stay too far from a script she already knows works for her. Most of our attempts to add to our repertoire have failed because she finds it more satisfying to stick with the good ol' tried and true.


From my perspective, based on everything you've written over the years, it is clear that your wife is sort of LD, not entirely. She does have a drive, not a big one, but it is there. She also clearly loves you and wants you.

There has never been a time when I thought she was ever going to become more sexual. Even if things can improve (and they are), that will happen incrementally based on your communication. It will not go from slow to ho just because you throw her over your shoulder one night. She may like it that night, and then not want sex for 2 weeks. This is how LD women are. They are consistent, and that's what it looks like.

Some may stray more from their script, but none of them will essentially change from LD to HD.

When we hear of cases where it appears someone went from LD to HD, it is because that person was repressed but was HD, and they somehow found a way to stop being repressed. It is not because they went from no drive to high drive.

Once in awhile you'll see no or low drive to high drive happen over night. This will always be temporary, and will be having to do with a new relationship or affair fog.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> From my perspective, based on everything you've written over the years, it is clear that your wife is sort of LD, not entirely. She does have a drive, not a big one, but it is there. She also clearly loves you and wants you.
> 
> There has never been a time when I thought she was ever going to become more sexual. Even if things can improve (and they are), that will happen incrementally based on your communication. It will not go from slow to ho just because you throw her over your shoulder one night. She may like it that night, and then not want sex for 2 weeks. This is how LD women are. They are consistent, and that's what it looks like.
> 
> ...


What a wonderfully insightful post. All I can say is "Thank You."


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I always felt that you two needed to communicate better. You also revealed the low T and depression, so I knew you would have to deal with those.


No depression, just low T :grin2: My W was put on zoloft for PMS/anxiety related issues, so that may be where you were thinking depression. 



Faithful Wife said:


> I think these are the things I have always said to you as well. When I would offer anything. Which wasn't often because you did not ask for suggestions often. But sometimes you would so I would offer.


I am a pretty easy going guy once you get under all the layers of GIFs and MEMES lol

I think when I first came to TAM, that was at the tail end of the PUA/Red Pill saga here, so that is probably why I never fully follow along with responses to those since it isn't something I have ever had in interest in.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> My favorite exchanges here are from the guys who say: nothing has changed, why has our sex life disappeared. I doubt anything kills a sex life faster than boredom. And nothing has changed is the one thing that ensures boredom.


I always rotate the episodes of The Office and Married...With Children that are playing in the background during our love sessions, keeps her guessing and the boredom away. My W doesn't know it yet, but for tonight I will be airing the episode from The Office where Kevin spills the chili ("S05E26 - Casual Friday" for those interested). :grin2:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: More about female sexual desire in*

Rocky,

I am excessively patterned. That is a sincere, objective self assessment. I have responsive adventurousness, that is not a snarky comment, it is a genuine thing. This fact is inherently difficult for M2 as she is naturally more adventurous in all activities vertical and horizontal.

The only thing that’s kept me a good solid yard from the third rail is that M2 doesn’t have to pretend to feel ying or yang, regardless of activity - whether horizontal or vertical. 

This might on occasion prompt a comment from me such as: Well that was a delightful if entirely one sided experience. 

If I get some polite-ish type response I simply say: thank you for loving me. Usually though M2 just says: I looooovvveee you. 

Her ideal sexual partner would have more edge and adventurousness. Instead, she’s stuck with me. The guy who makes her laugh and takes care of her when she’s sick. 






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Wow. That just kind of assumes that boredom is the problem and the guy is the reason for the boredom. It seems that the guys who have been on this site lamenting lackluster lady lust have always tried to keep things fresh in the relationship, both in and out of the bedroom.
> 
> I would also add that my wife is not adventurous. She can only be comfortable enough to enjoy it if it doesn't stay too far from a script she already knows works for her. Most of our attempts to add to our repertoire have failed because she finds it more satisfying to stick with the good ol' tried and true.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: More about female sexual desire in*



MEM2020 said:


> Rocky,
> 
> I am excessively patterned. That is a sincere, objective self assessment. I have responsive adventurousness, that is not a snarky comment, it is a genuine thing. This fact is inherently difficult for M2 as she is naturally more adventurous in all activities vertical and horizontal.
> 
> ...


Well f. I love you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I always rotate the episodes of The Office and Married...With Children that are playing in the background during our love sessions, keeps her guessing and the boredom away. My W doesn't know it yet, but for tonight I will be airing the episode from The Office where Kevin spills the chili ("S05E26 - Casual Friday" for those interested). :grin2:


Obviously why she’s all over you lately. :laugh:


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> When we hear of cases where it appears someone went from LD to HD, it is because that person was repressed but was HD, and they somehow found a way to stop being repressed. It is not because they went from no drive to high drive.
> 
> Once in awhile you'll see no or low drive to high drive happen over night. This will always be temporary, and will be having to do with a new relationship or affair fog.


Generally speaking, the "overnight" change is not with the same partner. Except, as you mentioned, when it isn't really going from LD to HD but rather turning off whatever repression had kept the underlying HD in chains.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

One other possibility, it is a test.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: More about female sexual desire in*

Ditto. 





NobodySpecial said:


> Well f. I love you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> One other possibility, it is a test.


In an individual case, yes of course it could be a test.

But do you think it is a test causing the statistical data to tell us that most women lose their drive for the same man in an LTR over time?

All of those women were testing him, and they passed (or didn't?) and got into and LTR with her, and then she deliberately stopped wanting sex, because she knew she was never going to want it anyway and just wanted to get married?

How many as a percentage of all cases of female loss of desire in an LTR would you estimate were due to her testing him?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Also...question for anyone....anyone know of any studies that have been done on couples who DO have long term desire and passion, to try to assess what is different about those couples?

I actually haven't read this one yet, but I'm going to now (not a study, just an article):

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-often-couples-have-sex_n_5ad09eb4e4b077c89ce7c1f8


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rocky,
When someone replies to my post beginning with the word: wow 
I realize that I’ve hit a nerve. My goal wasn’t to agitate or insult, but rather to describe. 

Every husband I know has been subjected to a spousal interrogation related to nesting aesthetics. It goes like this:

W: Which paint color do you like best?
H: Attempting to ascertain her preference via a body language read
W: (sharply) Do NOT tell me what you think I like best. I want to know what YOU like best. 
H: (thinking - I literally do not care at all) Takes a guess 

If he nails it, W is happy as their nest aesthetics are synchronized. If he blows it (picks an ugly color) she’s disappointed. 

So - that - is the humorous - and generally harmless - example of the very sincere desire for partner synchronization. 

Thing is, that same desire for synchronization (of passion) in the bedroom, can be kind of destructive.

And for clarity - none of these posts were directed at you. They are a hybrid of personal experience and pattern extraction from reading hundreds of thousands of TAM posts. 





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Wow. That just kind of assumes that boredom is the problem and the guy is the reason for the boredom. It seems that the guys who have been on this site lamenting lackluster lady lust have always tried to keep things fresh in the relationship, both in and out of the bedroom.
> 
> I would also add that my wife is not adventurous. She can only be comfortable enough to enjoy it if it doesn't stay too far from a script she already knows works for her. Most of our attempts to add to our repertoire have failed because she finds it more satisfying to stick with the good ol' tried and true.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Also...question for anyone....anyone know of any studies that have been done on couples who DO have long term desire and passion, to try to assess what is different about those couples?
> 
> I actually haven't read this one yet, but I'm going to now (not a study, just an article):
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-often-couples-have-sex_n_5ad09eb4e4b077c89ce7c1f8


The article somewhat makes sense but don't really see it as groundbreaking by any stretch. The biggest theme seems to be "it takes work", which I think we can all agree on. Get rid of the Non Recurring Engineering (NRE), add in work stresses, family stresses, life stresses, etc... and yeah, it takes a lot of work. There are so many other things there that aren't really touched on (it appears that all couples are somewhat evenly matched which may not be the reality for many people).


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Also...question for anyone....anyone know of any studies that have been done on couples who DO have long term desire and passion, to try to assess what is different about those couples?
> 
> I actually haven't read this one yet, but I'm going to now (not a study, just an article):
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-often-couples-have-sex_n_5ad09eb4e4b077c89ce7c1f8


Just from looking at the opening picture I would say white women need to get it going with black men for prolooooooonnnnggged sexual satisfaction!>

I'm reading now! Couldn't resist.:grin2:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ellis,
Congratulations on resurrection. 

Do you believe that:
- For whatever reason E2 feels more desire for sex now?
- She eventually concluded that you were drifting away, and that unless she made an effort to work with her responsive desire, she’d end up with an empty marriage or outright divorce?
- Did she ever acknowledge that it wasn’t very nice to deprioritize your highest priority or did she just start prioritizing it?
- Do you feel as if you have a fair amount of influence as to when you have sex, or is she firmly controlling the pace of activity?




EllisRedding said:


> I always rotate the episodes of The Office and Married...With Children that are playing in the background during our love sessions, keeps her guessing and the boredom away. My W doesn't know it yet, but for tonight I will be airing the episode from The Office where Kevin spills the chili ("S05E26 - Casual Friday" for those interested). :grin2:


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> The article somewhat makes sense but don't really see it as groundbreaking by any stretch. The biggest theme seems to be "it takes work", which I think we can all agree on. Get rid of the Non Recurring Engineering (NRE), add in work stresses, family stresses, life stresses, etc... and yeah, it takes a lot of work. There are so many other things there that aren't really touched on (*it appears that all couples are somewhat evenly matched which may not be the reality for many people*).


I still haven't read it yet, but I assumed the bolded.

And I actually think that IS the key ingredient.

But I haven't seen any actual research.

My personal research tells me that a mismatch is never going to be a match, and a match is never going to be a mismatch.

The mismatch can still "work it out" (with work).

The match can still end up in a bad relationship, even though the sex works.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Just from looking at the opening picture I would say white women need to get it going with black men for prolooooooonnnnggged sexual satisfaction!>
> 
> I'm reading now! Couldn't resist.:grin2:


Something a lot of black guys know....:x


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> In an individual case, yes of course it could be a test.
> 
> But do you think it is a test causing the statistical data to tell us that most women lose their drive for the same man in an LTR over time?
> 
> ...


Wrong test, maybe I am misinterpreting your statement:



> Once in awhile you'll see no or low drive to high drive happen over night. *This will always be temporary, and will be having to do with a new relationship or affair fog.*


Or, perhaps I missed something in the past few pages. I am talking about after the loss of desire where there is a switch from hardly any libido to HD. 

Over the course of several years of 'marital combat' over the issue of frequency, there were many cases of what Id call 1/2 measure recovery. you know, once a month would turn in to 3 for a few months then drop back. Temporary as you say but nothing that could be described as HD either. 

Except once, after yet another confrontation but more heated and more emotional I guess. Couple dozen times over 2 months which when you consider we both work and for the most part she won't bang on a weeknight is pretty HD. Didn't last, it was a test. I was very happy, took me a while to realize I had been fooled again.

As far as the first part of your post goes. I don't think pre-marriage to after marriage is an absolute conscious decision. I *do definitely believe* your average early 30's women with her clock ticking will use sex to sucker in a mate. Whether that is an intentional thought or not, who knows since you know, you can't trust anything a woman in a new relationship says anyway <g>. That was our conclusion the other day no?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Also...question for anyone....anyone know of any studies that have been done on couples who DO have long term desire and passion, to try to assess what is different about those couples?
> 
> I actually haven't read this one yet, but I'm going to now (not a study, just an article):
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-often-couples-have-sex_n_5ad09eb4e4b077c89ce7c1f8


Ok. One point I connect with is the constant flirting and teasing/playing to keep the fire burning even if we aren't going to have sex.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Over the course of several years of 'marital combat' over the issue of frequency, there were many cases of what Id call 1/2 measure recovery. you know, once a month would turn in to 3 for a few months then drop back. Temporary as you say but nothing that could be described as HD either.
> 
> Except once, after yet another confrontation but more heated and more emotional I guess. Couple dozen times over 2 months which when you consider we both work and for the most part she won't bang on a weeknight is pretty HD. Didn't last, it was a test. I was very happy, took me a while to realize *I had been fooled again*.
> 
> As far as the first part of your post goes. I don't think pre-marriage to after marriage is an absolute conscious decision. I *do definitely believe* your average early 30's women with her clock ticking will use sex to sucker in a mate. Whether that is an intentional thought or not, who knows since you know, you can't trust anything a woman in a new relationship says anyway <g>. That was our conclusion the other day no?


To the first bolded: do you mean that you think she KNEW she would eventually lose her desire again, and was just stringing you along hoping you would not notice when it died off again?

As for early 30's women with their clock ticking....I just have to giggle. I simply don't know any early 30's woman who doesn't want sex because she wants sex, rather than pretending to want sex because she wants a husband. But I do believe you. I just don't think it is that common. I think what really happens is this statistical hetero bed death, and then to the guy it always looks like she baited and switched.

But the thing is, she didn't know it was going to happen either. She did actually think she was totally into the sex.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Ok. One point I connect with is the constant flirting and teasing/playing to keep the fire burning even if we aren't going to have sex.


Right. Which is something most highly sexual people do automatically.

So, I'm still convinced that the only magical formula is a sexual match in this way.

And that a mismatch is never going to be like a match in this way.

But a mismatch can still meet in the middle. It will take work for them, where it will not take work for the match.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I still haven't read it yet, but I assumed the bolded.
> 
> And I actually think that IS the key ingredient.
> 
> ...





Faithful Wife said:


> Right. Which is something most highly sexual people do automatically.
> 
> So, I'm still convinced that the only magical formula is a sexual match in this way.
> 
> ...


So for the bolded, the question would be (and I don't really know if there is a way to quantify) are mismatches common/more common than those who are matched well?

I guess my thinking, those who are matched well probably don't need to read an article necessarily or as much help (not saying stuff doesn't come up, just that it is probably easier for them to get on back on track). Those where there is some sort of mismatch, that is where more time really needs to be spent communicating, etc...


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> But the thing is, she didn't know it was going to happen either. She did actually think she was totally into the sex.


I agree with this. We've had many threads here started by LD women who basically said they used to be passionate and loved sex, but now they have no desire and don't know why. They have even said that they love their husband, he's great, etc. and that there's no reason that she should have lost her drive. 

The difference in how that affects the marriage is the attitude of the LD person. If their attitude is "I don't feel like sex. Sucks to be you.", then the relationship should probably be over. But if instead they are like "I don't know why I don't desire sex, but I know you do and I want to make you happy. I'll do what I can.", then that's a good sign that a workable compromise can be reached.

So for an HD person, I would say to approach the problem with compassion and understanding. Have a realistic goal based on the reality of the situation. Chances are it won't get back to the circus sex you had at the beginning, but there is a good chance you can get to a place where you have a loving sexual relationship of some sort.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. Which is something most highly sexual people do automatically.
> 
> So, I'm still convinced that the only magical formula is a sexual match in this way.
> 
> ...


Mrs. C did have to learn this. I was happy to teach her but it definitely wasn't natural.

She may have been a closet sexual person that I needed to help emerge, and given our history, I would believe it but she did need to work at it.

Now she is a lovely little dirty girl with me!>


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> Ellis,
> Congratulations on resurrection.
> 
> Do you believe that:
> ...


Good questions MEME. I started responding but I need to run out to a dr appt. I will give you a full response later today or more likely tomorrow.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

When my daughter was getting married, she asked me for advice.

I told her "well, one of the big ones is, if the sex dries up, the relationship will really suffer".

And she said "oh yeah, that makes sense. Well, for right now it's great!"

sigh....

I knew she didn't know better, and that she actually believed the words she had just said. But I also knew it was just NRE, that she was going to end up NOT wanting to have sex with him, and that's what I was trying to warn her about.

But in their case, I knew she was going to lose her drive for him precisely because it was clear the only thing she ever had going on for him was NRE. I knew she wasn't actually attracted to him, and that the sex was horrible. How did I know? Sexdar. She told me it was great, I knew it wasn't. One look at the guy told me what that would be like. Ew.

Here we are 10 years later. She is divorcing him. She says she never liked the sex with him (I know). They also have not had sex in over 2 years, because he "wants sex" but doesn't want to bother being sexy (ie: he is LD and ALSO not sexy). She wants passionate mad lusty sex. He wants her to be aroused by him simply kissing her neck. She has told him why don't you try throwing me down on the bed and see how that works for ya? He replied "that's not who I am and that does not turn me on".

There is no way that I could have said to her in the beginning "girl child, I am an expert at predicting how sexual relationships will go, and I'm telling you right now, you only THINK you like the sex with him, but that's only because you are surging with bonding chemicals. It is not because the sex is good. And soon you will not want it with him any longer. Maybe you should reconsider?"

She would have just cried and thought I was being mean.

Although now she wishes I would have at least tried, just in case I could have convinced her.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. C did have to learn this. I was happy to teach her but it definitely wasn't natural.
> 
> She may have been a closet sexual person that I needed to help emerge, and given our history, I would believe it but she did need to work at it.
> 
> Now she is a lovely little dirty girl with me!>


You helped her un-repress herself.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> To the first bolded: do you mean that you think she KNEW she would eventually lose her desire again, and was just stringing you along hoping you would not notice when it died off again?
> 
> As for early 30's women with their clock ticking....I just have to giggle. I simply don't know any early 30's woman who doesn't want sex because she wants sex, rather than pretending to want sex because she wants a husband. But I do believe you. I just don't think it is that common. I think what really happens is this statistical hetero bed death, and then to the guy it always looks like she baited and switched.
> 
> But the thing is, she didn't know it was going to happen either. She did actually think she was totally into the sex.


She knew, finally, that it was a serious problem. So she set about solving the problem, I'll bang your brains out. Bring it on . Viewed it as a challenge. A TEST. No, she didn't know her so called desire would drop off again. She did know she could bang a lot if she wanted to and thought she could outlast me. Not. Came close, once, but no. 

And to be clear, she actually had her mojo back, no mercy sex involved.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> She knew, finally, that it was a serious problem. So she set about solving the problem, I'll bang your brains out. Bring it on . Viewed it as a challenge. A TEST. No, she didn't know her so called desire would drop off again. She did know she could bang a lot if she wanted to and thought she could outlast me. Not. Came close, once, but no.
> 
> And to be clear, she actually had her mojo back, no mercy sex involved.


So you are talking more about a sex CON-test than just a test. :laugh:


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Ok. One point I connect with is the constant flirting and teasing/playing to keep the fire burning even if we aren't going to have sex.


It is of near constant kinda yuck that I feel the pursuit of sex by many of the men who come to this board (often not to stay) with the complaint that they re not having it. Even something like this would be another trick/ploy/attempt at getting more sex. Woooosh


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is of near constant kinda yuck that I feel the pursuit of sex by many of the men who come to this board (often not to stay) with the complaint that they re not having it. Even something like this would be another trick/ploy/attempt at getting more sex. Woooosh


So instead of doing the real relationship work, including working on themselves, to achieve a natural flirty/ touchy relationship, they just try to use it like a gimmick?


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

wilson said:


> I agree with this. We've had many threads here started by LD women who basically said they used to be passionate and loved sex, but now they have no desire and don't know why. They have even said that they love their husband, he's great, etc. and that there's no reason that she should have lost her drive.
> 
> The difference in how that affects the marriage is the attitude of the LD person. If their attitude is "I don't feel like sex. Sucks to be you.", then the relationship should probably be over. But if instead they are like "I don't know why I don't desire sex, but I know you do and I want to make you happy. I'll do what I can.", then that's a good sign that a workable compromise can be reached.


Which is why we tell HD men to up their game, hit the gym, dress well, pay attention to grooming and hygiene, drop the ego and really LISTEN to what she says, etc. But if that doesn't work within 3, 6 9 or 12 months, get out. Because it doesn't take more than 12 months to determine whether you are paired with a "sucks to be you" LD or a "I'll do what I can" LD. And it is overwhelmingly unlikely to be worth additional investment if your LD is of the "sucks to be you" type.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> She wants passionate mad lusty sex. He wants her to be aroused by him simply kissing her neck. She has told him why don't you try throwing me down on the bed and see how that works for ya? He replied "that's not who I am and that does not turn me on".


OMG, are you my mother-in-law?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> OMG, are you my mother-in-law?


Ha ha! I don't think so. My daughter hasn't been married as long as you have, and I'm not that old. :laugh:


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Ok. One point I connect with is the constant flirting and teasing/playing to keep the fire burning even if we aren't going to have sex.


But this only works when there is basic compatibility and attraction.
I frequently flirt and tease and gently stroke the back of her neck. When we were having (infrequent) sex, she hated that. Always pulled away. Because of fear that it might lead to sex. Now she leans into it and tells me it feels nice. Because there is no risk that I will take her approval as permission to initiate sex.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ha ha! I don't think so. My daughter hasn't been married as long as you have, and I'm not that old. :laugh:



Phew. Glad to hear it. She is coming to visit tomorrow and I don't know what I would do if it WAS you! AFAIK I have never met a person from this forum (or any other) in person. I am hoping to keep my perfect streak alive.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> So you are talking more about a sex CON-test than just a test. :laugh:


A later teary exclamation of 'It's never enough!' told me it was a test. Actually 'it' was more than enough but I will never turn her down so she misinterpreted. I've thought about it, the turn down, but i don't think she'd know what to do and I keep my commitments.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> A later teary exclamation of 'It's never enough!' told me it was a test. Actually 'it' was more than enough but I will never turn her down so she misinterpreted. I've thought about it, the turn down, but i don't think she'd know what to do and I keep my commitments.


Well, and also HELLO, you *WON*.

Of course you didn't turn her down in that case. :laugh:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> This thread got away from me yesterday, so just going to post a few things rumbling around in the emptiness that is my head.
> 
> Regarding my post on male vs female desire, my point wasn't to imply that only men have to deal with females losing desire as it clearly goes both ways. My question was more along the lines if it is treated differently.
> 
> ...


Exactly. You're channeling me.

I guess it's only possible to understand other people if you're coming from the same initial perspective.

It wold be nice if everyone could wipe the slate clean of everything they *think *someone is going to say, assume that poster is coming from a good place, give them the benefit of the doubt and try to truly listen.

I try VERY hard to do this and still miss sometimes.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> But this only works when there is basic compatibility and attraction.
> I frequently flirt and tease and gently stroke the back of her neck. When we were having (infrequent) sex, she hated that. Always pulled away. Because of fear that it might lead to sex. Now she leans into it and tells me it feels nice. Because there is no risk that I will take her approval as permission to initiate sex.


I was actually responding to part of the article FW posted.

What I mentioned was something Mrs. C and I had in common with one of the successful couples in the article.

We can't really transpose me and you.

If I some how found myself married to your wife in your place, she would have known what to expect way before the wedding day and would have run for the hills or picked up her ball and started playing the game like me.

I had sex twice within 8 hours of meeting Mrs. C and easily 30x that first week.

Any lady getting nailed down that hard is going to know what life with me would be like.

Different dynamics are in play.

I also don't look at my behavior as something that works. It is simply who I am.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, and also HELLO, you *WON*.
> 
> Of course you didn't turn her down in that case. :laugh:


Well, the thinking about turning her down comes at other times. You know, like the third skipped weekend @4 in the afternoon on a Sunday when she decides maybe a shower is in order. And if I smile as I walk past him...

The other thing was just a can I get it up third or fourth time in a day or two. If I had doubts I'd still try, and the call No-mas


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> When my daughter was getting married, she asked me for advice.
> 
> I told her "well, one of the big ones is, if the sex dries up, the relationship will really suffer".
> 
> ...





Faithful Wife said:


> As for early 30's women with their clock ticking....I just have to giggle. I simply don't know any early 30's woman who doesn't want sex because she wants sex, rather than pretending to want sex because she wants a husband. But I do believe you. I just don't think it is that common. I think what really happens is this statistical hetero bed death, and then to the guy it always looks like she baited and switched.


In cases like this, the guy is probably going to believe he was given the old bait-and-switch. I'm sure that happens, but I'd guess that it's probably more commonly attributed to NRE, lack of experience, and basic lack of self-awareness. I wouldn't view it as binary, but more of a spectrum. Another challenge I've noted in attempting to help diagnose lack of desire situations is that there often seems to be a conscious or subconscious re-writing of history consistent with how the person is presently feeling. This revisionist bias makes it harder for an outsider to help identify causation.

My wife has a disturbing number of friends who married the "best" guy they could find regardless of sexual attraction/satisfaction because the ticking of their biological clocks apparently drowned everything else out. They now attempt to deny that was why they got married (blaming it on x, y or z instead), but the funny thing is that my wife called it years before when they tied the knot. In each case, I have differing opinions on how intentionally blind these women were (or weren't) when they chose to get married. I've tried to help several of their husbands up their game, but that's been a lost cause.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Studies being what they may........In any event....if a woman pulls a quick change on me.........she is history with no tears shed........Same goes for the other way around......I would expect her to dump my ass.........No big deal......No one is irreplaceable


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Satisfied Mind said:


> In cases like this, the guy is probably going to believe he was given the old bait-and-switch. I'm sure that happens, but I'd guess that it's probably more commonly attributed to NRE, lack of experience, and basic lack of self-awareness. I wouldn't view it as binary, but more of a spectrum. Another challenge I've noted in attempting to help diagnose lack of desire situations is that there often seems to be a conscious or subconscious re-writing of history consistent with how the person is presently feeling. This revisionist bias makes it harder for an outsider to help identify causation.


I agree. I would say in this case though, that she did not re-write history. What happened was, history was never what either of them thought it was.

I imagine that her ex thinks she is a horrible person and so is her mother. (lol)

But I also figure he's not going to look within at all, just blame her and hide his head. Then wonder why the next situation ends up the same.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ultimately this is why I consider love to be more about (D)esire to please and to avoid displeasing than (L)ust, which is a fickle friend. 




wilson said:


> I agree with this. We've had many threads here started by LD women who basically said they used to be passionate and loved sex, but now they have no desire and don't know why. They have even said that they love their husband, he's great, etc. and that there's no reason that she should have lost her drive.
> 
> The difference in how that affects the marriage is the attitude of the LD person. If their attitude is "I don't feel like sex. Sucks to be you.", then the relationship should probably be over. But if instead they are like "I don't know why I don't desire sex, but I know you do and I want to make you happy. I'll do what I can.", then that's a good sign that a workable compromise can be reached.
> 
> So for an HD person, I would say to approach the problem with compassion and understanding. Have a realistic goal based on the reality of the situation. Chances are it won't get back to the circus sex you had at the beginning, but there is a good chance you can get to a place where you have a loving sexual relationship of some sort.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well when it’s me, and a woman says her man has lost desire, I don’t assume any of the things you listed. I assume he is LD.
> 
> Seems a lot of people don’t actually believe men are ever LD. As I have personally encountered many, including ones who will say straight up that people are being too broad when they say that all the men want all the sex.
> 
> And when a wife loses desire, I want to know if she is just LD or if there is something else going on. Because LD people just aren’t going to magically change into nymphos, whether male or female.


My theory is that sex drive is largely driven by hormones (specifically testosterone).

Having more testosterone, men typically have a more powerful *base* sex drive (also note the many women who have been on TAM who had a sudden spike in sex drive due to hormone therapy, usually involving testosterone and talked about how they now knew what it must feel like to be a young man).

Given the higher base drive, men's sex drive is less likely to be affected by smaller variations (sure he's getting a bit bored having sex with the same woman for 20 years, but that's only, say, 10 or 20% of his drive). Most, women, given a much lower, non-hormonal base sex drive, are thrown off by smaller changes that a man's sex drive would barely notice. So, while men and women may have similar absolute variations in their drive, as a percentage of total sex drive, these variations are smaller for men than for women (usually). Mix in the effect of monthly hormonal variations and childbirth on women and you'll end up with women who can do without sex for often than men.

So, if a guy doesn't care much about sex, then he's pretty much got to just be LD (or has some weird control issues).

If a woman doesn't care much about sex it could be ....

That her sex drive mostly consists of NRE and when the NRE goes away, her desire goes away. 

Or, when she doesn't feel horny, she doesn't have a problem with not having sex (and thinks her husband shouldn't have a problem either). 

Or, she just assumes that since the desire for sex comes and goes for her, it does the should do the same for her partner. 

Or, she may think that since sex doesn't make her feel bonded to her husband, it's not possible that sex makes her husband feel bonded to her.

Or, she may think that she doesn't need sex all the time, if her husband does, he's a pervert.

Or, she may feel bad about her post-baby body and her desire for sex doesn't exceed her embarrassment with being seen naked.

Or, she may think she's undesirable, so her husband must not desire her for *her* and must just be looking for a convenient "hole" to us to get off.

Or, since she isn't really noticing a lack of sex, there must not be a lack of sex and her husband's just making that up.

Or, how badly can her husband need sex if he never initiates (missing the fact that she's rejected his approaches 90% of the time and just given up).

Maybe she's changed from being spontaneous desire to responsive desire, doesn't know that such a thing exists or have a clue how to deal with it.

Maybe, since she's not tired and not in the mood, she avoids any interaction with her husband because it may lead to him wanting sex, she'll have to turn him down and it's be a big to do. Best just to avoid any unnecessary contact.

Her husband is pretty cranky these days anyway, so why would she want to have sex with him? 

Maybe she thinks she should have spontaneous desire (after all, her husband is a great guy, still attractive, a great partner and she loves him) and so there must be something wrong with *her*. Maybe she's broken. 

The relationship isn't what it once was. There's no emotional closeness. The marriage just seems to be going through the motions. She still loves her husband (even though he's more distant now), doesn't want to be divorced, doesn't want to start dating again (especially with kids), doesn't want to start over.

But, she's not happy.

And she doesn't know what to do about it.

The above describes a *lot* of marriages.

For these situations, if she knows that it's not unusual for women in long term relationships to experience a loss of libido, there's a lot that the woman could do about it. She could realize that if, when she has sex, she enjoys it she might have responsive desire. If she just gives herself a chance to be aroused, the sex will be good. She could understand that, for many men, sex is the way they emotionally bond with their wife and that, if they have sex it may increase his emotional attachment to her and, with the increased emotional attachment, she may find herself actually wanting to have sex with him. If there is anything on her part that's been keeping her from enjoying sex fully (sexual shame, submissive sex (and women shouldn't submit to their husbands)), negative body image, "mother's don't do that", CSA, cultural stereotypes, religious hangups, whatever), she can work on that in therapy or with her husband. She could work on figuring out what, if anything, turns her on. She can tell her husband what he could do to make sex more enjoyable for her (more oral, more dominance, more romance, more viagra for him, work on PE) or just try them all one at a time until finding one that works. 

Leaving it all up to her husband deprives her of any agency in her own happiness. Anything her husband does is unlikely to make a difference anyway. If there's going to be a change, she's going to have to want it. 

If and when the breakthrough occurs, the result isn't women who learn to tolerate bad sex, it's happy marriages where both partners enjoy sex and enjoy being with each other. When you see older couples out smiling and holding hands, they have a satisfying sex life. 

This happens a *lot* (check out https://forgivenwife.com). 

Now sure, sometimes the woman wants the guy to be really dominant in bed and he just can't (or won't). Sometimes a woman might only desire men with perfect V shaped torsos (but you'll need to trade him in eventually) or maybe only a guy with an 8 inch penis will satisfy her (in which case, that's less than one out of 100 men), maybe a woman realizes that she made a mistake marrying someone who she was never attracted to, maybe she's told her husband what she needs and he ignores her. Maybe a particular woman just can't be sexually satisfied with the same man for long and sex is important enough that she'll just have to plan on changing relationships from time to time. I have no problem with any of that.

By all means, leave him and find someone who will make you happy. You only live once and no one should waste it.

But, if the woman wants to be married, if she is attracted to her husband, if there are lots of good things in her life that she's happy about, then I just don't think that choosing between a sexless marriage (and a presumably unhappy husband) and starting over with someone else is the most likely path to happiness. She may well just start the cycle again with the next guy. 

People who are not "highly sexual" like sex too and a satisfying sex life is an important part of happy relationships and happy relationships are an important part of happy lives.

I don't want to put the "blame" on anybody.

But, often the one in the best position to improve things is the woman and it seems as if everyone's saying that it's all on the guy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@Buddy400

What you may not realize is that not all women who are put on testosterone have that sexual spike. Also, there are some men who have T levels through the roof and have no apparent sex drive. And there are men who have low T and are being given T and it is not affecting their sex drive.

I know you don’t believe it, but what all the data seems to tell us is that no, testosterone itself is not the holy grail of sex drive, for men or women.

Similarly, I could write a long list for you of the many reasons men don’t want sex, avoid it with certain women (and wives) for emotional and other reasons, the ones who have very specific needs about getting off such that a woman has no choice but to basically just be his doll so they both give up because that sucks (and in that case, it seemed to be something about his anatomy that he literally could only get off in one certain way. The plumbing was bent or something). The men who have deep emotional needs that will not have sex if he has resentment towards her. The ones who have a tendency toward being submissive and want her to chase him. The ones who have personal shame about sex and want it but don’t want it and want it but don’t want it and...it most of the time doesn’t happen. There are the ones who only want a very intellectual type of sexual exchange, and that’s not always easy for them to find (me too!) Some have the Madonna ***** thing going on. Some literally only get hot for, say, pregnant women. So he’s only hot for her 3 times for 9 months each. After that, sexless for 10 years (his choice. Actual story).

I could go on for pages. Again, you may believe as you will. From your perspective, if you have not personally talked to all kinds of men who have lower sex drives than you do (and most TAM men), then it must seem unthinkable. But from my side, I have known tons of them. Many will just flat out tell you “yeah I’ve never been one to be all obsessed about sex”. And most people brush this off by thinking the guy is just trying to act appropriate and decently. In fact the lady in our only wants her when she is pregnant story, her husband said this in the beginning and she thought it meant he was telling her he is a “good Boy Scout”.

Actually he was telling her he only wanted sex to make babies.

If I only knew a few like this, I would totally be with you. It does appear at first glance that men are overall more sexual. 

But what I’m describing is a completely true but under reported phenomenon. 

However I’ve heard when doing surveys of self reported sexual behaviors, they know to lower the intensity of the answers for men and raise them for women, because men will lie to appear more sexual and women will lie to appear less sexual.

Doesn’t that tell us something? To me, it shows that men who are LD or asexual or just repressed or low T or whatever thing it is, they will still lie about their sex drive on an anonymous survey. They know it’s not cool to say the truth.

Men like this tell me these things in private conversations. They know if they say it out loud in a group, people will scoff or worse.

Anyway...

It seems like you wrote a whole paragraph that sort of paraphrased what I’ve got going on in my life right now. But I’m sure I’m just making it all about me again and it’s not. 🙂


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

A work mate of mine was a 32 year old woman with similar aged friends. One of her friends was planning to marry a man have a quick child or two and then divorce him. He had no idea that was the plan. 

There are different types of predatory behavior, and doubtless men create more physical mayhem in the world, but this type thing is not something men typically do. 






Satisfied Mind said:


> In cases like this, the guy is probably going to believe he was given the old bait-and-switch. I'm sure that happens, but I'd guess that it's probably more commonly attributed to NRE, lack of experience, and basic lack of self-awareness. I wouldn't view it as binary, but more of a spectrum. Another challenge I've noted in attempting to help diagnose lack of desire situations is that there often seems to be a conscious or subconscious re-writing of history consistent with how the person is presently feeling. This revisionist bias makes it harder for an outsider to help identify causation.
> 
> My wife has a disturbing number of friends who married the "best" guy they could find regardless of sexual attraction/satisfaction because the ticking of their biological clocks apparently drowned everything else out. They now attempt to deny that was why they got married (blaming it on x, y or z instead), but the funny thing is that my wife called it years before when they tied the knot. In each case, I have differing opinions on how intentionally blind these women were (or weren't) when they chose to get married. I've tried to help several of their husbands up their game, but that's been a lost cause.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> A work mate of mine was a 32 year old woman with similar aged friends. One of her friends was planning to marry a man have a quick child or two and then divorce him. He had no idea that was the plan.
> 
> There are different types of predatory behavior, and doubtless men create more physical mayhem in the world, but this type thing is not something men typically do.


WOW! That is vile.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Just a commercial interruption on topic.

Anyone here watch the TV series on Netflix called Easy? If not, then I recommend you watch it, at least the first episode. It is a great representation of what happens to sexual interest in LTR.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila said:


> Just a commercial interruption on topic.
> 
> Anyone here watch the TV series on Netflix called Easy? If not, then I recommend you watch it, at least the first episode. It is a great representation of what happens to sexual interest in LTR.


I watched the first episode and it was so sad that I did not continue with the series.

I especially got sad when he said “I’m not even into that, I’m not into big boobs”....

Ha ha!

(His wife had small boobs so he was actually trying to be nice).


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > Just a commercial interruption on topic.
> ...


I've only watched a few episodes. It's different couples/dynamics every episode but that first one is the one I could relate to.... Long term hetero couple with kids. 

It was so sad that she was practically jumping his bones and he was pushing her away. That's an LD husband


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@Buddy400

As for what we should tell women.

Again I have a hard time making blanket statements about what “people” should do.

So each case would be a different answer.

But if I was going to take a stab at a public service announcement type article, it would have such as...

Hey ladies, guess what!

That new guy you’re seeing? And you’re so hot for him and the sex is so great?

Well statistically speaking, that’s not gonna last. For you. It will last for him, but not you. Read on to find out our best guesses as to why hetero bed death occurs in large numbers.

Then explain NRE, how it works differently for men and women, how men tend to gain weight (to warn her before this happens that it may affect her sex drive even if she doesn’t think it will), and so on.

But for a woman like my daughter, if I know the whole story, I’m not going to encourage her to stick it out. I knew immediately this guy was not going to work out and I could not stop it then. If I told her to ignore her actual feelings and try to work on the sex with him, I would have to slap myself. And she would too once she realize I was encouraging her to give up any chance at happiness.

I her case, she did actually drag him to counseling before giving up. They did address both of their desires and wishes and needs and how they could both get theirs met and meet each other’s. They were given several books and workbooks. She did all of them, he did none of them. He still complained, she reminded him that he was committed to working on it and had the resources. Then he would shut up. Then grumble again a few months later. She would say let’s go back to the counselor, the C would say “husband, why didn’t you do the things you said you would?” Husband said he didn’t understand why they are important.

Not sure if he’s that dumb, is disordered, was in denial, all of these.

After several years of this pattern, she finally threw in the towel. And even then he didn’t understand why, what her needs were, or why they were important.

I knew all of this along the way. I was so relieved when she was finally done. I told her how proud I was of how hard she tried. She did not just walk out, and she tried much harder than he ever did. And she knows she tried her best, and feels closure about it all.

And has a new boyfriend now who I’m sure she is headed into the same cycle. But at least this guy is not the icky guy that her ex h was. This guy is in fact a great guy and I just hope she doesn’t end up married again right away, even though he’s great. We will see.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lila said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Lila said:
> ...


Yeah. And he’s fat. And a SAHD. And when they did finally have sex, he didn’t do anything for her. Just himself.

ETA: oh I just remembered this too. There is a part where she is a laying on the couch and her crotch is towards him. He says what are you doing? She says showing you my *****,

He said I know your *****.

This exact scenario happened to a friend of mine. The exact words I know your *****. 

The sentiment he was actually saying, in both the show and my friends case, was “if you try to make me do something, I will prove to you that you can’t affect me like that”.

She wanted to seduce him and he wanted to show her he isn’t affected by her. So sad! But actually happens.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I can't resist>

So does this exception from responsibility / inability to identify your actual feelings until later apply only to sex or does it apply to other activities as well?

It'll be worth the wait, bed time and all. At least the dudes will enjoy it


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> I can't resist<a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_devil.png" border="0" alt="" title="Devil" ></a>
> 
> So does this exception from responsibility / inability to identify your actual feelings until later apply only to sex or does it apply to other activities as well?
> 
> It'll be worth the wait, bed time and all. At least the dudes will enjoy it <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" ></a>


I don’t know. But I do know my daughter supported his worthless ass for their entire marriage while he refused to work and opened a business that failed that she paid all the losses on.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t know. But I do know my daughter supported his worthless ass for their entire marriage while he refused to work and opened a business that failed that she paid all the losses on.


Ugh...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I would also add that my wife is not adventurous. She can only be comfortable enough to enjoy it if it doesn't stay too far from a script she already knows works for her. Most of our attempts to add to our repertoire have failed because she finds it more satisfying to stick with the good ol' tried and true.


Since my wife and I share those feelings with each other.

Do you ever sometimes get bored of your wife or with the repertoire you share with her? And if you do, do you ever tell her?

As for me, I was in my third longest sexual relationship, with an attractive highly sexual woman with a high drive. Who I was quite lustful towards, yet after a time despite a considerable repertoire wit much excitement, I became disinterested in having sex with her much at all.

To the point that and much to her surprise and disappointment (she rang me for weeks on end in the evening wanting to get back together etc) I dumped her. She had done nothing wrong, she was a splendid woman in so many different ways. Yet I had reached a point where I felt no desire for her at all.

At the time, all I could offer her was a lame "it's not you, it's me" statement. Yet it was true it really was about me and not her, since back then I wasn't sure why I no longer felt any sexual desire for her. The thing is today I know why, and the why is because I grew to become completely bored of our sexual relationship. Yet absent being able to articulate that then (I was still 22), there was no reset.

So at the time, I thought the best thing I could do was to let her go, rather than try to pretend to want to have sex with her.

While today the relationship with my wife has always ebbed and flowed, sometimes it's 8-9x a week and it's intense, wild and wanton. At other times it's 4x a week and it's more lazy. While it's normally 4-6x a week of quality sex, there are times when I have got bored and she has got bored.

Or outside of sex, we will sometimes not like each other one day, then on another think the other is the best.

Which is why we have such a range of activities today, that we didn't have to the degree it is today. The nice thing is, when the sex isn't all that we tell each other. Then find new ways to be together. "That was lame, well that was a bit boring, what I want us to do, "how about we try", and so on.

Sometimes I want to consume my wife, and sometimes I don't. Likewise she sometimes wants to consume me and sometimes she doesn't. Yet for us the expression of our desires or not are okay. Just as it's okay that I sometimes desire other women and she sometimes desires other men. That said so far we have remained exclusive together, yet we may not always be.

Likewise on things like viagra and other things of that ilk, I'm okay with either of us the losing the want for sex with each other or in general as we age.

Of which if I am no longer desired by her at all or she can no longer sustain sexual performance, or I no longer desire her or can sustain sexual performance. I am okay with her, choosing to part from me or to negotiate having other sexual partners. I think given a potential long life, it's okay that sexual relationships, short term or long term come to an end or change. I don't think divorce is a terrible thing, and I don't think it need be adversarial in approach.

Funnily enough it took me around 25 years to reach agreement with my ex-wife, that non-monogamy in a marital relationship can be okay. She didn't want us to divorce, she just wanted us both to be able to be with others as well. Yet I was the one who found such a premise to be appalling, yet today I'm okay with it.

I'm not articulating this as well as I would like, yet I think @I shouldnthave captures well what I feel in myself and what my wife also relates of herself.



I shouldnthave said:


> Oh and to answer the rest of your original question more directly.
> 
> For me it’s not a loss of libido, although it can go into a bit of hibernation if neglected.
> 
> ...


As to libido, my wife is a little bit lower than me, my ex-wife was slightly higher than me and my third longest partner was around the same as me. All others I have no idea, since it was too short to come to any particular conclusions.

Meandering I also don't think men are all high desire, and I think we would all be better for accepting that we come in different flavours.

I sometimes am surprised when some men say they don't notice that their wife has changed in looks. Just as some say all young women are beautiful, when I notice that my wife has aged, just as she has noticed I have aged. Plus I never thought all women were beautiful, in fact I think most people aren't particularly pretty, sure some are yet most aren't to me.


My wife and I talk about it, and we think ageing sucks, yet that doesn't change the fact that we desire sexual contact. Yet we don't buy into the idea that we look as good as we once did. Which is okay, live past a certain age, going downhill is inevitable just as death is as well.

I figure things might be easier if we accepted our differences in relationships and we're okay with not being everything to our partners and they not being everything to us. Plus having gone through my mid twenties through my late forties with her, it is abundantly clear that we change along the way.

I think at least for my wife and I in terms of still sharing a rich sex life is that we have a substantial amount of autonomy, and separateness (even sharing the same house) form each other. Plus a significant does of acceptance has done us well through our 22 years and 11 months together. Yet I still think if she and or I lose desire for one another and it is over, it would be okay.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@Personal 

I have a question...not formed very well yet so I’ll talk it out.

I think you explained on a thread or two at one time, that you don’t feel anything emotional about sex, during it or otherwise. That you love you wife but sex is not an emotional bonding experience. I hope I don’t have that wrong.

If I’m right, what do you think when you read about others who do feel a bonding experience through sex?

I’m asking because I think there might be a level of emotional bonding, kind of a spectrum, that people have or don’t have via sex.

I do bond via sex. So I have never been able to relate to not bonding via sex. The way you described it one time helped me understand it better. Though still, it would not be my experience to have sex with out bonding, no matter how well I can understand.

I think there may be some interesting over lap between people who do and don’t feel emotional about sex, and their sex drive, their overall sex life/adventures, and their overall relationship and sexual success (as determined by themselves).


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@Faithful Wife ^^^ tomorrow.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> So instead of doing the real relationship work, including working on themselves, to achieve a natural flirty/ touchy relationship, they just try to use it like a gimmick?


That is how it seems to me. The hope is for a laundry list of tricks to use to get sex.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. C did have to learn this. I was happy to teach her but it definitely wasn't natural.
> 
> She may have been a closet sexual person that I needed to help emerge, and given our history, I would believe it but she did need to work at it.
> 
> Now she is a lovely little dirty girl with me!>


I don't share FWs opinion on what "highly sexual" people do "automatically or naturally". We live in a confusing world. I was highly sexual from a young age. Much to my poor mother's dismay. These things live in life context just like everything else.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Personal said:


> Since my wife and I share those feelings with each other.
> 
> Do you ever sometimes get bored of your wife or with the repertoire you share with her? And if you do, do you ever tell her?
> 
> ...


A beautiful post that resonates with me on so many levels.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> That is how it seems to me. The hope is for a laundry list of tricks to use to get sex.


I see that. Instead of working on self improvement and really changing themselves and their lives, they think it is a magic trick for opening the elusive vajajay.

Then when they wave their hands and say the magic word, nothing happens and they complain that it doesn't work for them.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> A work mate of mine was a 32 year old woman with similar aged friends. One of her friends was planning to marry a man have a quick child or two and then divorce him. He had no idea that was the plan.
> 
> There are different types of predatory behavior, and doubtless men create more physical mayhem in the world, but this type thing is not something men typically do.


I have a visceral near hatred for people who use children in this way. Not that what she did (or please hopefully only managed to PLAN to do) is not horrid in its use of him. But it is MORE horrid when you add trapping him into a lifetime of commitment based on a layer of lies. *****.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I see that. Instead of working on self improvement and really changing themselves and their lives, they think it is a magic trick for opening the elusive vajajay.
> 
> Then when they wave their hands and say the magic word, nothing happens and they complain that it doesn't work for them.


The vast majority of guys are just in a deep and rutted cluelessness. But not to very infrequently, we get a guy who is like I work. I don't beat her. She is SUPPOSED to f me any way I want whenever I want. Yes, the urge to reach through the screen and choke them out (not to death) is strong. AND hug their poor wives.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't share FWs opinion on what "highly sexual" people do "automatically or naturally". We live in a confusing world. I was highly sexual from a young age. Much to my poor mother's dismay. These things live in life context just like everything else.


I'm not quite as black and white on the HD and LD topic as her.

I am starting to realize not everyone can achieve similar results but I still believe everyone can change and improve even though it is often unlikely.

I was highly sexual as a child like you. I kissed everything and everyone LoL!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> The vast majority of guys are just in a deep and rutted cluelessness. But not to very infrequently, we get a guy who is like I work. I don't beat her. She is SUPPOSED to f me any way I want whenever I want. Yes, the urge to reach through the screen and choke them out (not to death) is strong. AND hug their poor wives.


I know a few dysfunctional men like that, who are in various stages of ruining their marriages.

I see women only in it any more because of their kids. I also see that reason being eroded and divorce on the horizon anyway.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I'm not quite as black and white on the HD and LD topic as her.
> 
> I am starting to realize not everyone can achieve similar results but I still believe everyone can change and improve even though it is often unlikely.
> 
> I was highly sexual as a child like you. I kissed everything and everyone LoL!


Schnarch has a great point here - he focuses on the reality within a relationship that one is highER and one lowER and even that can change with situation, age...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Schnarch has a great point here - he focuses on the reality within a relationship that one is highER and one lowER and even that can change with situation, age...


I asked @anonmd to share a couple of bullet points about what hit home for him about Schnarch, because he claimed he was reading Schnarch, and he never replied.

Your the second person to mention him so maybe I'll look his work up.

I don't care for Martin at all (the author of the book in the OP) and I think Daniel Bergner has a much better book on the subject.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I asked @anonmd to share a couple of bullet points about what hit home for him about Schnarch, because he claimed he was reading Schnarch, and he never replied.
> 
> Your the second person to mention him so maybe I'll look his work up.
> 
> I don't care for Martin at all (the author of the book in the OP) and I think Daniel Bergner has a much better book on the subject.


I bought a book recently. Did not get very far. Won't lie. I was irritated at my husband and pitched it to the bottom of the to do pile. But I read Passionate Marriage a looong time ago. I don't remember a darned thing it said. Only that it was very helpful at the time.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I bought a book recently. Did not get very far. Won't lie. I was irritated at my husband and pitched it to the bottom of the to do pile. But I read Passionate Marriage a looong time ago. I don't remember a darned thing it said. Only that it was very helpful at the time.


LoL!:grin2:


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> @Buddy400
> 
> As for what we should tell women.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this post (and feel sad for your daughter's lost years), but the bolded stood out to me. First, women gain more weight on average (as a percentage of total weight) than men between their 20s and 40s, and I'd be hard pressed to make the argument that men are less visually oriented than women when it comes to attraction. Second, if men gain weight as they age, on average that will impact the stranger a woman finds herself attracted to more than her husband (unless she's eyeing a younger model). I think there are a lot of factors I'd include in your PSA, but I don't think weight gain is one of them (except to say that a couple needs to keep themselves physically attractive).


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Personal said:


> Since my wife and I share those feelings with each other.
> 
> Do you ever sometimes get bored of your wife or with the repertoire you share with her? And if you do, do you ever tell her?
> 
> ...


The answers to your two early questions are both yes. And to her credit, she has honestly tried to respond.

As for physical appearance, I dont think I fit the dichotomy you present. There is a third option. Yes, I do recognize the general degradation in appearance. However, that need not mean I find her less attractive. Her smile still makes my spirit soar and when she gives me the bedroom eyes, I am no less moved than I was 30 years ago. Maybe even more so because I understand this is genuine and lasting rather than just the temporary thrill of new discovery.

I would even say my current level of attraction is greater. The source of the attraction may have partially shifted from a classically beautiful 22 year old face, long legs and perky breasts to an invisible but powerful bond forged by three decades of facing the fire together, but it's just as strong if not stronger. There really is something to be said for having long term shared experience and battles life's tribulations arm in arm. 

She'd also tell you that I don't look as good as I did those decades ago, but she couldn't even imagine being attracted to anyone else.

We are of one mind in this and it works for us.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Satisfied Mind said:


> I completely agree with this post (and feel sad for your daughter's lost years), but the bolded stood out to me. First, women gain more weight on average (as a percentage of total weight) than men between their 20s and 40s, and I'd be hard pressed to make the argument that men are less visually oriented than women when it comes to attraction. Second, if men gain weight as they age, on average that will impact the stranger a woman finds herself attracted to more than her husband (unless she's eyeing a younger model). I think there are a lot of factors I'd include in your PSA, but I don't think weight gain is one of them (except to say that a couple needs to keep themselves physically attractive).


I've seen weight gain come into play with couples who don't gain it together.

I'm not sure if the effect is lopsided with it not affecting men with heavier wives as much as women with heavier husbands but it would be interesting to find out.

I am aquanted with three former co-workers that ended up in a love triangle that ended in one divorce and a new engagement over some of these issues.

The original couple consisted of a very overweight and crude man married to a very good looking (Hollywood, dancer body, model material), woman. The man was very handsome but definitely had ballooned. They were younger with the woman being naive.

There were other issues like his generally slovenly nature and he had no mate guarding instincts at all.

She was taken from him by a lean, more ambitious and genuinely more appreciative man.

I saw it coming a mile away. I didn't know who would take her but I saw she was ripe for it.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I asked @anonmd to share a couple of bullet points about what hit home for him about Schnarch, because he claimed he was reading Schnarch, and he never replied.
> 
> Your the second person to mention him so maybe I'll look his work up.
> 
> I don't care for Martin at all (the author of the book in the OP) and I think Daniel Bergner has a much better book on the subject.


Yep, I need to get back to this. 

Emotional Fusion is one. 



> You Have to Stand on Your Own Two Feet A sexual relationship involves shared responsibilities, but it is not a 50-50 split. This kind of thinking leads to neither partner taking responsibility when gridlock sets in. Assigning equal responsibility and blame sounds fair, but that is not how relationships work best. Don’t waste your time extracting commitments, exchanging promises, or making “no exit contracts” with your partner. These are just fancy ways of dressing up a 50-50 split that ill keep you stuck.
> 
> Resolving gridlock in general, and sexual problems in particular, requires you and your partner to function independently. (It’s not just a matter of “getting closer”—you need to resolve the emotional fusion.) That means taking 100 percent responsibility for yourself, 100 percent responsibility for things you haven’t done and for things you can still do—regardless of what your partner has or hasn’t done. Functioning independently is not the same as being uncaring, indifferent, or pursuing your self-interests elsewhere. Your ability to function independently is a crucial mainstay of your relationship.
> 
> ...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Yep, I need to get back to this.
> 
> Emotional Fusion is one.


Those are points I agree with and practice.:smthumbup:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Satisfied Mind said:


> I completely agree with this post (and feel sad for your daughter's lost years), but the bolded stood out to me. First, women gain more weight on average (as a percentage of total weight) than men between their 20s and 40s, and I'd be hard pressed to make the argument that men are less visually oriented than women when it comes to attraction. Second, if men gain weight as they age, on average that will impact the stranger a woman finds herself attracted to more than her husband (unless she's eyeing a younger model). I think there are a lot of factors I'd include in your PSA, but I don't think weight gain is one of them (except to say that a couple needs to keep themselves physically attractive).


A little short on time so just doing a quick drive by. I have to agree with SM here. I know FW keeps focusing on men gaining weight, almost as if it is inevitable, and TBH, this is a bit of a head scratcher to me. Yes, I know guys who do gain a decent amount of weight. I also know plenty of guys who have not. Just basing my opinion on people who I see, on average it is the female who is the one gaining more substantial weight. You also have those couples where both have let themselves go. Now, maybe the idea is that men have a higher tolerance for weight gain vs women? IDK, it is a weird time though. You have the dad bod being normalized, and likewise for females, being overweight is now normalized b/c it is just "curvy" (and guys love curvy so what's the problem)


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t know. But I do know my daughter supported his worthless ass for their entire marriage while he refused to work and opened a business that failed that she paid all the losses on.


Hmm, refusing to work and wracking up losses in a business for your wife to pay seems at least as important as her decline in desire after the NRE chemicals wear off causing her to realize what she thought was good sex wasn't. No? 

BTW, if you feel I am 'picking on you'. It is solely this idea that a grown ass women gets in a new relationship and thinks the sex is great but her thinking is not correct AT THAT TIME. 

I am an older, largely bald white guy with a lot of more traditional thoughts like the male should do more of the household financial support if at all possible combined with those ancient first wave feminist principals of equality. Equality = capable of accurate thinking.

Seems like a complete thought, I'll get back to my entertainment point...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Satisfied Mind said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > @Buddy400
> ...


We have statistical evidence that shows us that both men and women gain weight In LTR’s. But we also know that weight gain on women does not affect a mans desire for her, whereas weight gain on men does affect her desire for him. 

I’m not going to speculate on anything other than that this seems to be true and weight gain on a guy seems to be quite a bit more of a turn off than either of them realize will happen before it happens.

ETA: if you check out my other thread “have you noticed it”, you’ll see some women talking about sex drive waning. And you’ll see a few comments already about weight gain.

I’m sorry guys it may not be fair but it seems that we can’t really remain hot for you if you gain weight, even though you can remain hot for us.

I had expanded on this elsewhere, saying that it’s about the shape of our bodies. As women gain weight, they tend to remain hourglass shaped.

As men gain weight, they lose their V shaped upper body (which is the equivalent of the hourglass shape, it is the cue to our eyes that we are seeing a sexually viable person) and then they become apple shaped. And we can’t seem to get horny for that shape.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I don’t know. But I do know my daughter supported his worthless ass for their entire marriage while he refused to work and opened a business that failed that she paid all the losses on.
> ...


I’m sorry people don’t like it. I’m not creating these ideas myself. It seems to be that sex chemicals and hormones create a temporary state of mental differences that lasts about long enough to raise a child to toddlerhood.

What I’m not saying is that this means every woman in a new relationship did NOT actually love the sex. Some do! 

It’s just that if the love chemicals were sufficiently high, it can make horrible sex seem good, and can make a horrible partner seem ok.

Doesn’t that just make sense? When you know someone is all hot for someone and you’re like “huh?” Just assume the sex is blinding them and they will see it in clear light soon.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> ETA: if you check out my other thread “have you noticed it”, you’ll see some women talking about sex drive waning. And you’ll see a few comments already about weight gain.
> 
> I’m sorry guys it may not be fair but it seems that we can’t really remain hot for you if you gain weight, even though you can remain hot for us.
> 
> ...


FYI - my comment was more based on your posts which seem to imply that male weight gain (of any sort of significance) is almost inevitable, which I disagree with (of course, purely based on what I have seen first hand). You feel strongly enough that it will happen that you would include it in your PSA to females.

I do think you are right that men might have a higher tolerance than women for weight gain, but from guys I have spoken to, I would not under estimate at all what female weight gain does to their desire.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > ETA: if you check out my other thread “have you noticed it”, you’ll see some women talking about sex drive waning. And you’ll see a few comments already about weight gain.
> ...


I’m offering that both stats seem to be true at the same time. That women lose their desire for one man, and that the one man on average does gain weight over that same time.

On any individual case, we could see a woman gain weight and her man lose desire for her.

I wasn’t pointing to individuals. I had posted a mock PSA article beginning, and included hey, he’s going to gain weight and you don’t know it now but it will affect your sex drive more than you think it will.

I wish what I’m really saying could be understood. Instead of it seeming like I’m just pointing to weight gain as if it is the one and only issue. I’m trying to be clear. But I think people just don’t like what I’m saying and are projecting. Or else I just cannot get the right words.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm curious as to what exactly we're talking about with regard to awareness. Is it self awareness? Or is it awareness of your partner? I'm guessing both are prerequisites for this sexual screening mechanism to engage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can’t seem to keep up with this thread and it probably moved along a lot...but just wanted to address it at this point.

I think it is way too simplistic dividing people (and relationships) into those two categories: LD and HD.
I’ve been with my wife now, what, about 20 years, since we were 16, and I have experienced her sexuality blossom.

While she was often horny when we started dating, she was also a bit weird about sex. Now with hindsight I realise that she often used sex a bit like a weapon (she would use some childish excuse to just shut it down completely and often play mind games). Then at times it was just great. But the pattern was usually me having to work pretty hard getting anything out of her. It was quite a bit of effort and rarely was it effortless for me. I’m sure she had her reasons. (She says it’s been drilled into her not to be available too easily for fear of being taken advantage of but I’m not sure how much of it was this).

There came a point though when she must have realised that using sex like that was just humanly a ****ty thing to do to someone. Otherwise I can’t explain the big change. It was either that or maybe she began to actually enjoy it. Or maybe I got better it or **** knows.

And if i am remembering correctly (big if because people tend to have have selective memory), it’s only in the last 3 years or so that everything sexual has just been more or less perfect. (Since about 5-6 months after the last one was born. And funnily enough, since I joined the forum...Though I am afraid I can’t give the forum much credit: I was continuously told that if I want better, natural and ‘uncomplicated’ sex, I should find someone ‘on my level’ or accept misery forever and that it’s my fault anyway etc etc).

When I say perfect...she has just become quite self-assured (sexually), confident about what she likes, her body doesn’t ‘play up’ anymore (nor does her mind). She knows and understands how much i need it or how important it is for me and even if she is not in the mood or whatever, she makes sure i am never left short-handed (or is it short-mouthed?). 
And most importantly she never uses sex as a means to manipulate me or the situation anymore. If anything she does the opposite: she ‘uses’ sex to make me feel better whenever I’m down (if talking doesn’t help, or in spite of talking) and she appears to even enjoy making me feel better...

I mean how do you explain it, alongside this LD and HD model. It seems completely meaningless to me and of no use whatsoever.

There’s obviously a balance between people living in false hope (and giving people false hope), but this idea of ‘if she wasn’t a sex animal from the get go, that’s what you gonna be stuck with for the rest of your life’, seems just so wrong...At least given my situation. One of the most amazing things was for me to witness her ‘sexual blossoming’ and be part of it. 
It might appear like the holy grail when people say something like: “it’s easier to just find a nympho and all your problems will go away” but I just don’t think it’s such a sure thing as people are making it out to be at all.

What is frustrating is that people ONLY discuss such superficial parts of an LTR. (While sex isn’t superficial, I think sticking it into LD and HD boxes definitely makes it so).
I wonder if maybe that’s because very few actually reached that other, deeper level. I can’t explain it otherwise why there’s not much talk of anything else. 

I mean there must be plenty of couples out there who did get to that level, but maybe they never felt the need to join a marriage forum and report? Ignoring this, may distort some perceptions you’d get I think, if your only ‘source of wisdom’ is a marriage forum where there is predominantly an abundance of failed or failing LTRs.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m offering that both stats seem to be true at the same time. That women lose their desire for one man, and that the one man on average does gain weight over that same time.
> 
> On any individual case, we could see a woman gain weight and her man lose desire for her.
> 
> ...


Per the bolded, I don't think that is accurate (at least in my case). I also think most people here understand what you are saying, so I don't think it is an issue with your words. All I can go by is just my personal observations, which based just on that, I don't agree with you. Not saying I am right or wrong (and I acknowledge I have a small sample size), but hopefully you don't interpret not agreeing with you as meaning I somehow don't understand what you are saying (nor does it have anything to do with not liking what you are saying). Hope this makes a bit more sense.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The notion that men are indifferent to female partner weight gain is nonsense. 

Some men are indifferent to it. Many are not. And there’s a huge difference between a man having sex with you because the alternative is no sex at all, and that man finding you really hot. As for how honest the average man is on this topic - well the man asks: did you come?
And the woman asks: am I fat?

The first move that divorcing women who are out of shape make, is they join a fitness center. That happens for a reason. 





Faithful Wife said:


> We have statistical evidence that shows us that both men and women gain weight In LTR’s. But we also know that weight gain on women does not affect a mans desire for her, whereas weight gain on men does affect her desire for him.
> 
> I’m not going to speculate on anything other than that this seems to be true and weight gain on a guy seems to be quite a bit more of a turn off than either of them realize will happen before it happens.
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I’m offering that both stats seem to be true at the same time. That women lose their desire for one man, and that the one man on average does gain weight over that same time.
> ...


You don’t agree that men keep their desire for women as they gain weight? 

Again, I agree in the individual. And there are a lot more reasons than that for some men to lose their desire for one woman.

It just doesn’t happen statistically apparently equally on both sides. We don’t know why. I’m offering possible correlations.

ETA: or your saying that weight gain in men is not inevitable. That’s cool. I did not say it was inevitable, I said it statistically happens.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> You don’t agree that men keep their desire for women as they gain weight?
> 
> Again, I agree in the individual. And there are a lot more reasons than that for some men to lose their desire for one woman.
> 
> ...


I am saying both lol. However, like I said, I am taking the stats you are basing your posts on and trying to draw it against my personal experiences. I recognize that, as I mentioned, my sample size is probably more limited. However, I can say based on guys I know, women gaining weight does in fact have a negative effect on desire for many men (once you get out of that NRE area). The ones who are more willing to discount it seem to be the ones who are more desperate for sex (for one reason or another)

I am not discounting what you are saying, just that what I see contradicts the stats.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> The notion that men are indifferent to female partner weight gain is nonsense.
> 
> Some men are indifferent to it. Many are not. And there’s a huge difference between a man having sex with you because the alternative is no sex at all, and that man finding you really hot. As for how honest the average man is on this topic - well the man asks: did you come?
> And the woman asks: am I fat?
> ...


I will say that Mrs. C can get a little pudgier than me and I still find her attractive if it is in the right places. Her belly can get s little bigger, her butt can, her thighs can and I'm still not much deterred. Granted, when she is at her peak, I cannot take my eyes off her.

I gain weight in my mid section. She likes a flat tummy on me but I've noticed as long as I keep the V, she still keeps her hots for me.

I'm attracted to a lot of women and many of them are overweight but they have a woman's shape to them, are usually very pretty and confident with good makeup and grooming.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> The notion that men are indifferent to female partner weight gain is nonsense.
> 
> Some men are indifferent to it. Many are not. And there’s a huge difference between a man having sex with you because the alternative is no sex at all, and that man finding you really hot. As for how honest the average man is on this topic - well the man asks: did you come?
> And the woman asks: am I fat?
> ...


One thing I found interesting, I think it is SI that is now highlighting plus sized women in their latest swimsuit edition. I always find it interesting when you read through some of the commentary and comments. The underlying assumption is that guys love curves of any size (or that seems to be the justification). However, scrolling through comments (yes, I acknowledge this is the internet, people can say things just to be nasty, etc..) and I see a lot of comments from guys who just don't find this attractive. I can tell you that I much prefer a female to have some extra weight on her versus not enough. However, and this is just for me, there is a difference between being curvy and being obese.

I just think it gets dangerous when we start pushing messages to men that women will find dad bods desirable. Likewise, I feel the same way when I am seeing messages pushed to women that men will not differentiate b/w curvy and obese.

FYI - gonna carb up on a burrito, then will respond to your post from yesterday. Gave it some more thought last night so I think I have my responses clear in my head


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > You don’t agree that men keep their desire for women as they gain weight?
> ...


To be honest, the weight stuff confuses me also.

By that I mean, I realize lots of men have very specific weight preferences, and it appears overall that they aren’t into heavier women. Based on lots of observations.

But other observations show me that men are totally into heavier women. And lots and lots of them, not just some select few. Having many heavier female friends for decades and seeing the men just literally slavering over them.

It still just seems to me this says men are kind of attracted to all women. Which doesn’t seem weird to me. I am kind of attracted to all women, too. But not all men.

My personal experience has been that men I’ve been with would still be hot for my body if I gained up to 15 pounds, but beyond that they would begin to find me less attractive by some margin. I never gained more than that because it doesn’t feel good to myself to be heavier.

And that men I’ve been with could also gain about 15 pounds before my attraction would shift downward. He also never gained more than that. However I think my shift downward was harder than his. Also, my attraction could shift upward in leaps and bounds if he gains muscle. There didn’t seem to be anything I could do to shoot his attraction up that high that fast other than to pull out some fantastic outfit or lingerie. Luckily those things are easy and I could do them any time.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

In our old neighborhood most of the guys Giving M2 the vibe had overweight wives. 

And one of them, while we were over for a barbecue, lost his mind a bit that day and put his arm round M2 when they were sitting in the back yard. I was inside with the guys wife helping her cook. And his wife has a comparable pretty face to M2 but had gained a lot of weight since marrying. 

In hindsight - that guy - was picturing M2 when he had sex with his wife. 

And for clarity M2 has a slim, toned figure. And in aggregate I’m talking about close to ten guys that I knew of during a decade time frame. Of the ten, 8 had overweight partners. 




EllisRedding said:


> I am saying both lol. However, like I said, I am taking the stats you are basing your posts on and trying to draw it against my personal experiences. I recognize that, as I mentioned, my sample size is probably more limited. However, I can say based on guys I know, women gaining weight does in fact have a negative effect on desire for many men (once you get out of that NRE area). The ones who are more willing to discount it seem to be the ones who are more desperate for sex (for one reason or another)
> 
> I am not discounting what you are saying, just that what I see contradicts the stats.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> In our old neighborhood most of the guys Giving M2 the vibe had overweight wives.
> 
> And one of them, while we were over for a barbecue, lost his mind a bit that day and put his arm round M2 when they were sitting in the back yard. I was inside with the guys wife helping her cook. And his wife has a comparable pretty face to M2 but had gained a lot of weight since marrying.
> 
> ...


Mem...darling.... I am not disputing any cases of men not being attracted to over weight women. Nor am I saying that only men gain weight.

I’m pointing to two statistics that occur together and may be correlated.

And actually, part of the correlation is probably that since women gain weight too, that alone affects her own sex drive and so we can add that to the statistical soup.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

anonmd said:


> I can't resist>
> 
> So does this exception from responsibility / inability to identify your actual feelings until later apply only to sex or does it apply to other activities as well?
> 
> It'll be worth the wait, bed time and all. At least the dudes will enjoy it


So, quoting myself since FW 'doesn't know' 

Golf and Hobbies. If you happen to think chasing a white ball around hundreds of acres of grass is a silly past time, A you are missing the point and B substitute some other popular leisure activity for golf. 

So, when we were dating which by definition is within this NRE period for us, we of course had a few things we did together. Golf was one on my side cause I was a pretty fanatical golfer at the time. Generally once a week during the season the courses were open which was something like mid April - October where we were. I also had a near life long hobby and she had one also. FWIW, my hobby involved a skill and not really any particular physical activity but provided an excuse for weekend driving trips with overnight stays which we did. Her hobby involved some physical / semi-athletic activity which we could do together, and we did. 

On the golf side, on the one hand that certainly involves a skill. She had never played but I bought her some clubs and set about 'instructing' her which was fun :wink2:. Eventually we took a trip in the middle of the winter to a warmer golf area which was great. The 12 hour drive starting in a snow storm was fun, lot's of talking along the way, weekend was fun etc. Later, we would occasionally spend a weekend day on the golf course. It is not that I was dragging her out every time I played, just occasionally. The point was not the golf, the point was more to spend time together, enjoy the scenery etc. I'd say she had an OK time and we had a lot of laughs, she was never gonna be practicing for the LPGA though. 

On the hobby side, my hobby is almost entirely a male activity. Very few women participate in the actual activity, I can think of 2 I've met in 30 years. There are a larger # of wives or girl friends that will participate in more of a supportive way in the local clubs or travel along with hubby to events. My wife's hobby was generally more popular with women but plenty of men participate as well. 

So where is this going? 

Lot's of togetherness here before marriage. 

After marriage: 

She never played golf again. I asked her once, no - not today, enjoy yourself. I asked her again - same. Asked her a third time on a REALLY nice day - NOPE. Now, if she really has no interest in golf that is fine with me and I did continue to play for a decade or so until I mostly gave it up for budgetary reasons to fund a larger mortgage payment. But, really :surprise:. I did tell this story to a couple of wives on a hobby trip recently and there reaction was surprise - that is not right! <g>. Also FWIW, she will occasionally mention, like 2 or 3 times in 20+ years that some time in the future after all her motherly responsibilities are done with and we retire maybe, maybe she take up golf again, she realizes this was a disappointment for me I think. 

The other thing involves the hobbies. We did do her hobby a few times after marriage, kinda petered out over time for a few unrelated reasons. I was not all that enthusiastic about it but I would have continued from time to time if she had on a more frequent basis. 

On my Hobby, as I said the actual participation rate of females is near zero. However it is not unknown for girl friends to play along and learn / participate, after the girl friend is a wife they pretty universally drop the participation but somewhat more frequently will come to club meetings, help out, travel with hubby to events. 

We do have a club president with a wife who is very involved with the club activities and very rarely will participate, her equipment which she brings out say 3 or 4 times in the past 5 years is of course painted pink. And on one of these occasions we were chatting away from her husband and this whole subject came up which in my mind is under the heading of bait and switch examples in relationships. I didn't use the term bait and switch because females in my experience deny it EVERY TIME <g>. 

So we were talking about her club activities and whether or not she enjoyed those or not (yes) and her participation and whether or not she enjoyed that (well yeah, every once in a while) and I asked. Did you participate more before you got married. Silence, embarrassment, looking down at the ground. Well yes, actually I used to do this a lot more before we got married!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ellis,
I also prefer a plus ten pound surplus to a minus ten pound shortfall. But fitness matters. Slim and toned just kills me. 

If you look at who the guys who can have anyone pair up with - they reflect what guys want. 




EllisRedding said:


> One thing I found interesting, I think it is SI that is now highlighting plus sized women in their latest swimsuit edition. I always find it interesting when you read through some of the commentary and comments. The underlying assumption is that guys love curves of any size (or that seems to be the justification). However, scrolling through comments (yes, I acknowledge this is the internet, people can say things just to be nasty, etc..) and I see a lot of comments from guys who just don't find this attractive. I can tell you that I much prefer a female to have some extra weight on her versus not enough. However, and this is just for me, there is a difference between being curvy and being obese.
> 
> I just think it gets dangerous when we start pushing messages to men that women will find dad bods desirable. Likewise, I feel the same way when I am seeing messages pushed to women that men will not differentiate b/w curvy and obese.
> 
> FYI - gonna carb up on a burrito, then will respond to your post from yesterday. Gave it some more thought last night so I think I have my responses clear in my head


----------



## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> We have statistical evidence that shows us that both men and women gain weight In LTR’s. But we also know that weight gain on women does not affect a mans desire for her, whereas weight gain on men does affect her desire for him.


I understand you're talking macro level here, but I don't know that this is true, certainly not with the definiteness that you seem to state here. We see a number of posts on TAM about men's loss of desire because their wives have let themselves go, and I speak from personal experience when I say that there has been a noticeable difference in physical attraction depending on the shape she is in. On the man's side, are we perhaps confusing correlation with causation when we separately note that men gain weight as they age in a relationship and women have a tendency to lose desire and thus conclude that one must cause the other? As someone very into economic and statistical modeling, I'd love to see what sort of contribution male weight gain has on female desire in a relationship versus other independent variables. And weight gain itself isn't even truly an independent variable because there are a number of desire-killing aspects of weight gain beyond physical appearance.

I hope I'm clear that I'm not debating this because I necessarily disagree. Anecdotally, I can confirm (as much as she wanted to dance around it when we talked about it years ago) that my wife is much more into me physically when I'm ripped than when I'm out of shape. Rocket science, I know. :laugh:

I'm also not debating this point because of some deep-seeded insecurity or because this hits close to home. Like you, I share a desire for more information, so that I can base my actions accordingly. Plus, who doesn't want to be in better shape anyway?

ADD: Thinking about this a bit more, I wonder if I have trouble with this concept because I've never had an issue attracting women, so I've had the luxury of being choosy. I expect that the person I am with will be and will keep herself in good shape, so I have difficulty accepting the lop-sided nature of what you're saying. If the majority of guys don't have that same luxury, does that affect their "choosiness" and their view of female weight gain?



Faithful Wife said:


> I’m not going to speculate on anything other than that this seems to be true and weight gain on a guy seems to be quite a bit more of a turn off than either of them realize will happen before it happens.
> 
> ETA: if you check out my other thread “have you noticed it”, you’ll see some women talking about sex drive waning. And you’ll see a few comments already about weight gain.
> 
> ...


It was definitely a rude awakening when, years ago, I gained a significant amount of weight for a period in my life and discovered that my wife wasn't as attracted to me. And a lesson I have not forgotten. My wife and I are a good match in this regard because we are both active people who put a premium on being in good shape for a variety of reasons, which leads to my next point.

I'm not sure the physical appearance aspect of weight gain is entirely to blame for loss of desire. In my case, I gained a bunch of weight while working on a massive, multi-year case that left little time for anything else. We were probably down to sex 2 times a week. I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't working out, I abandoned my hobbies, and I was pretty much a miserable and depressed wreck by the end of it. When we talked about what seemed like a noticeable loss of desire during that period, my wife admitted that the physical aspect played a role, but she also noted that it was my lack of energy, confidence, and my moodiness as much as anything else. This goes back to my correlation versus causation point above.

Going back to the macro level, if I had to posit a theory for all of this, it would be that there are a number of factors at play when it comes to desire, and even the physical fitness category encompasses a number of sub-factors, and the relative importance of each of those factors depends on the specific person.

FW, would you say that you rank physical fitness/body type relatively higher than most women and thus tend to both emphasize its importance more and to spot that issue more than most women? In other words, I would agree with you that a man's physical attributes are important to most women's desire, but do you think that you place an even higher emphasis than most, which colors your viewpoint, or do you see yourself as pretty average in that regard?



Faithful Wife said:


> I had expanded on this elsewhere, saying that it’s about the shape of our bodies. As women gain weight, they tend to remain hourglass shaped.
> 
> As men gain weight, they lose their V shaped upper body (which is the equivalent of the hourglass shape, it is the cue to our eyes that we are seeing a sexually viable person) and then they become apple shaped. And we can’t seem to get horny for that shape.


This doesn't account for historical differences in ideal body types, but certainly makes a lot of sense to me from a modern perspective, which is of course the time period we're focused on here. The very recent celebration of so-called "dad bods" seems to be a curious aberration pushed by the media.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> anonmd said:
> 
> 
> > I can't resist<a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_devil.png" border="0" alt="" title="Devil" ></a>
> ...


Yes I would say what you are describing is NRE behavior. 

Men do a whole lot of things different while they are in NRE that they don’t keep up over time, too.

Think of the way a man feels about a woman he is pursuing but hasn’t fully captured yet. His brain offers him all kinds of ideas day in and day out about how to win her or bed her or woo her. He won’t stop until he has her!

Then he has her.

The end.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> We have statistical evidence that shows us that both men and women gain weight In LTR’s. But we also know that weight gain on women does not affect a mans desire for her, whereas weight gain on men does affect her desire for him.
> 
> I’m not going to speculate on anything other than that this seems to be true and weight gain on a guy seems to be quite a bit more of a turn off than either of them realize will happen before it happens.
> 
> ...


My wife would agree... I think... kinda.

She did say she was less motivated to have sex when I gained weight (although she was too polite to say so at the time, which really wasn't about politeness at all but rather her natural tendency to conflict avoidance). 

But she said it wasn't related to appearance or desire (but then she was always LD to begin with, so I take that with a grain of salt).

Her objection was that she doesn't like bellies slapping together as it is both a distraction and prevents the depth/angle of penetration from going where it works best for her. 

So for her, it was more mechanical than visual. But it stands to reason that the visual is what is sending the signal that the mechanical isn't going to work.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> The notion that men are indifferent to female partner weight gain is nonsense.


I agree with that and also feel that the notion that females can not tolerate male weight gain is perhaps misleading. 

From everything I have read it is not so much the weight gain that makes a male unattractive but more so the behaviors associated with the weight gain. 

While growing up my sister had a boyfriend that was well over 400 pounds. He was a football player and one of the few in high school that could bench press over 400 pounds as well. His body did not have a V-shape or Apple-shape to it. He was just friggin HUGE, as in sit on your couch and it breaks HUGE. Later in college he became an alcoholic and stopped taking care of himself. THEN my sister broke up with him. 

So if a man's weight gain is associated with him NOT taking care of himself. Women pick up on that and are likely not attracted to the associated behaviors. Meanwhile take a morbidly obese man that trains hard to be a prized linebacker, and he can have any woman he wants.

I remember my sister's high school boyfriend looking something like this:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,
Given how smart you are, I don’t recall ever taking you to school before, but as you appear to be trying and failing to understand male desire as it correlates to weight....

Men who have lots of choices will only pair up with a relatively (relative to age, their local environment, etc) overweight woman if she brings something unusual and positive to the table be it charisma, facial beauty, money or some combo of qualities that he cares about. 

Most women have a little (sometimes invisible) sign next to them says: If you want to ride THIS ride, you got to be at least THIS tall. Will they make an exception for a unicorn (high net worth, high charisma including very funny and fearless)? Sure. But since unicorns just confuse the picture, let’s leave them out. 

The upper X% of men, those driven by desire, not sexual frustration, have the same little sign, except that it says: If you want to ride THIS ride, your BMI cannot exceed XYZ.

In my current (for the last 15 years) neighborhood, the wives almost all stayed fit and their husbands have shown markedly less interest in pursuing M2. 







Faithful Wife said:


> Mem...darling.... I am not disputing any cases of men not being attracted to over weight women. Nor am I saying that only men gain weight.
> 
> I’m pointing to two statistics that occur together and may be correlated.
> 
> And actually, part of the correlation is probably that since women gain weight too, that alone affects her own sex drive and so we can add that to the statistical soup.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Agreed.

For the lads, weight gain is often a symptom of lower testosterone, lower edge, lower sexual competitiveness. It comes with a behavioral package that is less sexy.





badsanta said:


> I agree with that and also feel that the notion that females can not tolerate male weight gain is perhaps misleading.
> 
> From everything I have read it is not so much the weight gain that makes a male unattractive but more so the behaviors associated with the weight gain.
> 
> ...


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> But other observations show me that men are totally into heavier women. And lots and lots of them, not just some select few. Having many heavier female friends for decades and seeing the men just literally slavering over them.
> 
> It still just seems to me this says men are kind of attracted to all women. Which doesn’t seem weird to me. I am kind of attracted to all women, too. But not all men.


Hmmm, so I wonder. When you talk about men slavering over them, I assume you aren't talking about men who are in LTR with these women? I think this is where you start to see some of the differentiation. What a guy might find attractive at the onset (when he is hunting) can be fairly different once the NRE wears off (which I believe you are saying as well with females).

Sounds like the moral of the story, when in a relationship make an effort to not let yourself go (for both you and your partner's sake) :grin2:


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> FW,
> Given how smart you are, I don’t recall ever taking you to school before, but as you appear to be trying and failing to understand male desire as it correlates to weight....
> 
> Men who have lots of choices will only pair up with a relatively (relative to age, their local environment, etc) overweight woman if she brings something unusual and positive to the table be it charisma, facial beauty, money or some combo of qualities that he cares about.
> ...


Wow MEM.

Do you really think my small contribution on this thread with a theory about statistics is my only thoughts on male desire?

Would have thought you could give me credit for all the other things I’ve ever said.

In my experience, yep. I’m in the BMI range to get with the top 20% and I always have been. Do you think I’m unaware of my own assets and why they get me what I’m after?

Do you think I would ever gain weight myself and then wonder why the same guys don’t pay me as much attention?

Do you think I don’t go out of my way to target the only men I’m attracted to and that I don’t know how that is accomplished?

Really?


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I've gotta confess, I'm just not as sharp as I used to be.

Can someone 'splain to me, are we in agreement that yes, absolutely and overwhelmingly that women lose interest in sex over the course of a LTR?

Or are we highlighting the how's and why's that this isn't the case?

Or are we doing what we usually do and just conflating a whole bunch of other stuff?

I'm not being facetious. I see a lot of good stuff, and what I would qualify as 'no brainer' stuff in this thread, but I'm admittedly having a hard time piecing it all together.

My interpretation is that we are condensing sexual desire over the long term with attraction over the long term.

I come at this from my own perspective that by no means do I qualify my relationship as long term at 5 years, but an acknowledgement that I have a partner that respects and is attracted to me, but doesn't have sexual desire for me. 

A number of years ago, I would certainly draw a straight, broad, line between attraction and sexual desire. Given my circumstances, it now has me wondering more about FW's concept of HD people vs. everyone else on the curve.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I agree with that and also feel that the notion that females can not tolerate male weight gain is perhaps misleading.
> 
> From everything I have read it is not so much the weight gain that makes a male unattractive but more so the behaviors associated with the weight gain.
> 
> ...


That is an example of a unicorn Mem posted about after this post.

Mrs. C and a lot of women I know would not go for that guy over one with a V.

His physical power and status made him attractive.

I am, and have been, very attracted to overweight women as long as they had a woman's figure.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Deejo said:


> A number of years ago, I would certainly draw a straight, broad, line between attraction and sexual desire. Given my circumstances, it now has me wondering more about FW's concept of HD people vs. everyone else on the curve.


When it comes to dead bedrooms, I think the mismatch is the only real culprit. I think if people are better matched, the bed won't get so dead.

I'm still talking statistically.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Satisfied Mind said:


> 1. I understand you're talking macro level here, but I don't know that this is true, certainly not with the definiteness that you seem to state here. We see a number of posts on TAM about men's loss of desire because their wives have let themselves go.....
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


Point 1...I don't recall seeing that many posts by men who have lost their desire because of weight gain? But perhaps I just didn't catch those.

Point 2...It seems that you would be able to be choosy, only as long as you yourself remain V shaped. I don't really know why this wouldn't just be kind of obvious? I mean, when women gain weight and wonder why he has lost interest, everyone says "well your shape is why he was attracted to you, and you changed it".

Point 3...I think I am more sexual than most people, and more self aware than some. I think I know myself well and what will work for me in an LTR, and that I have a experience with NRE that helps me navigate this, instead of hinders me.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Deejo said:


> I've gotta confess, I'm just not as sharp as I used to be.
> 
> Can someone 'splain to me, are we in agreement that yes, absolutely and overwhelmingly that women lose interest in sex over the course of a LTR?


I think the general consensus is that many women lose desire over the course of a LTR. The question is in part the reasons (hormonal/biological, aren't meant for monogamy, family/life stresses, dud of a lover, etc...). Also, where does the responsibility lie in trying to fix this (assuming it can be fixed).


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I think the general consensus is that many women lose desire over the course of a LTR. The question is in part the reasons (hormonal/biological, aren't meant for monogamy, family/life stresses, dud of a lover, etc...). Also, where does the responsibility lie in trying to fix this (assuming it can be fixed).


It's all your fault and you better fix it buster!:wink2:


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes I would say what you are describing is NRE behavior.
> 
> Men do a whole lot of things different while they are in NRE that they don’t keep up over time, too.
> 
> ...


LOL, as usual, just can't do it. Not unexpected. 

Peace 0


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> LOL, as usual, just can't do it. Not unexpected.
> 
> Peace 0


Hmmm...well do you want me to say women act differently in the beginning of relationships and they know they are doing it to keep the man?

Sure!

I am not sure what else you are meaning or why you seem to think I won't "cop" to something. YES!!!! Women love men and will bend themselves into pretzels to be with one!!! Is that a newsflash?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Point 1...I don't recall seeing that many posts by men who have lost their desire because of weight gain? But perhaps I just didn't catch those.



I will say there was a point where my interest waned. My wife really struggled with weight following the birth of our third child. 

Interestingly, I had been attracted to some heavy gals in the past, but it just didn't work on my wife.

But as it's hard to isolate variables, I'm not sure just how much of that waning was due to the prolonged weight gain. It also happens that she always went from LD to Zero D for the period from birth through the breastfeeding, so knowing she had zero interest also not doubt colored my impressions. Also, I didn't want the third child (fear not, all's well that ends well), and I was rather upset about that and much of that upset was focused on her. So there were lots of desire killers there and it's hard to isolate how much was due to extra poundage. 

After getting her thyroid under control, she's now actually lighter than when we met, and she was darned thin then. Funny thing, I never really thought of myself as being a skinny girl kind of guy, but nowadays, any time she walks across the room naked, she's gonna get mauled. It may not lead to sex, but she's gonna' get some seriously amorous kisses across a variety of locations, and some major groping, and she's going to darn well know she still stirs my passions.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Back to topic: The NRE lasts a LOT longer with folks who don’t marry. The woman is still in hunting mode til the vows get spoken. Hunting heats up a woman pretty reliably. 

Married or not, when I travel for work M2 makes sure to put her stamp on me physically might before I leave and right after I return. 





EllisRedding said:


> I am saying both lol. However, like I said, I am taking the stats you are basing your posts on and trying to draw it against my personal experiences. I recognize that, as I mentioned, my sample size is probably more limited. However, I can say based on guys I know, women gaining weight does in fact have a negative effect on desire for many men (once you get out of that NRE area). The ones who are more willing to discount it seem to be the ones who are more desperate for sex (for one reason or another)
> 
> I am not discounting what you are saying, just that what I see contradicts the stats.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Or are we doing what we usually do and just conflating a whole bunch of other stuff?


I dropped out right around when I figure this out. I vote this.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> I think the general consensus is that many women lose desire over the course of a LTR. The question is in part the reasons (hormonal/biological, aren't meant for monogamy, family/life stresses, dud of a lover, etc...). Also, where does the responsibility lie in trying to fix this (assuming it can be fixed).


Thanks very much Ellis.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

NobodySpecial said:


> I dropped out right around when I figure this out. I vote this.


To be fair, sometimes the conflating is necessary, fun, and we get through it.

My patent position is that in fact, over the course of a LTR, marriage, home, children, work, stress, anxiety ... that many, many, women become subject to, or victims of a decreased libido. I didn't need ANOTHER book to point this out to me.

I don't believe this based on sour grapes or the state of my marriage. I am extraordinarily happy with the state of my marriage. But without a doubt, sex has become far less of a priority (for both of us) as we choose to navigate our lives and the lives of our children on this journey.

When I was dating I definitely used my own 'sexdar' to gauge enthusiasm and compatibility over the long term. It was always pretty obvious to me who the NRE women were versus the HD's or the LD's. Was definitely also an eye-opener for me as to how many women indicated that their previous male partners had become LD.

Makes me wonder if it's simply a matter of who gets there first and consequently the other partner just doesn't much like it.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Ok, let me answer these best I can. That being said, I am starting to think (IDK?) that possibly my W and I are statistical outliers , so I can't say how much t his will help (with the exception of giving a different POV on female desire)



MEM2020 said:


> Ellis,
> Congratulations on resurrection.
> 
> Do you believe that:
> - For whatever reason E2 feels more desire for sex now?


Not really. Maybe different with my W, but the desire for sex has been there, but her in the environment (house, kids, etc...) is a big desire killer. A good way to see this, whenever we go on vacation alone she is a completely different person. If when on vacation she still showed little interest or desire, then I think that would point to a whole other set of issues. She has a difficult time detaching herself as Mom versus herself as a person (sexual and other). She would have no issues telling me how attracted she is to me and how much she desires me, but it did get to a point where actions speak louder than words, so those words became hollow. So the challenge, how do we get that desire out with more frequency?




MEM2020 said:


> - She eventually concluded that you were drifting away, and that unless she made an effort to work with her responsive desire, she’d end up with an empty marriage or outright divorce?


Well, as far as divorce, I don't know if that was ever a fear of hers (if i had to guess though, there was concern on her part that she was losing me as several times she had asked me if I was happy). Up to this point, I never got to the "Things change or I am out" scenario for multiple reasons (I wouldn't make any sort of threat unless I was serious about following through). However, through talking everything out and trying to best explain where I am coming from, she does have a better sense of how important it is for me. Hearing me say that I lost interest in having sex with her shook her a bit too. So, I never gave her the "fix this or I leave" ultimatum. However, my stance was either we need to fix this, or if not I am just going to focus on myself and the kids, if that means an empty marriage so be it.



MEM2020 said:


> - Did she ever acknowledge that it wasn’t very nice to deprioritize your highest priority or did she just start prioritizing it?


Well, to take a step back. What started all this, late last year I decided to get bloodwork done, turned out I was dealing with low T. I used that as an opportunity to start discussing things over (really more so, before I started any treatment I wanted my W to have some input on). Obviously one of the side effects was low libido, which then led to further discussions regarding our disappearing sex life, etc... At the time I left it that although my loss in interest in having sex with her had to do with her deprioritization, part of that was related to the low t (not entirely accurate as the low t didn't kill my desire per se but instead just made it easy to accept things as they were, but in order to advance the discussion I felt this was necessary to shift some of the blame). We didn't blame each other, just got a lot off our chest, and ultimately agreed that the sex issue needed to be corrected for the sake of our marriage. This was in December

One interesting note (and I think this is where you see the acknowledgement), last weekend after she gave me a morning BJ she said she was sorry and that I deserved a lot more than she had given me. I was in no way looking for an apology, but not gonna lie, it was nice to hear that.



MEM2020 said:


> - Do you feel as if you have a fair amount of influence as to when you have sex, or is she firmly controlling the pace of activity?


I have most of the influence. Aside from one instance, she never rejected me (at least not verbally, but you learn to read the non verbal cues and know when she is saying no without saying no lol). Her stance was that if I wanted more sex she was willing (i.e. if I wanted her she would make herself available is more how it came across). Maybe for some that sounds great, but really that just got very old. Over time it just got very hard to show interest in someone who showed so little interest or put so little effort into you. The weirdest thing to me, when she was making an effort and our sex life was good, she was always first to comment on how I was a different person (more affectionate, etc...). I say weird b/c she really enjoyed those differences yet it was a head scratcher why I wasn't like that when our sex life disappeared.

Hope that helps to answer your questions.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ellis,
One of the things that makes you lovable, is that you are sincere while maintaining your sense of humor. If you tire of E2 I will gladly present you with one of my daughters and a small dowry. 

I think that your approach to E2 was great. My view of ultimatums is this. They are like guns. Do not draw unless you are willing to fire. Being deprioritized sucks. 

I also believe that her difficulty in unplugging is absolutely genuine and normal. And if she wants to, she can have a glass or two of wine and let you play with her awhile after which you will both feel happy. 

As to having to push through what feels like resistance, right there with you brother. We had a solid one year during which every few months I said: I don’t want THIS to be bad for you

Maybe I was being paranoid but, I was beginning to get phobic about that. Now things are better, no idea why. Just another clueless rutting man. 







EllisRedding said:


> Ok, let me answer these best I can. That being said, I am starting to think (IDK?) that possibly my W and I are statistical outliers , so I can't say how much t his will help (with the exception of giving a different POV on female desire)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You'll all be happy to know that @MEM2020 and I made up. Yay, my TAM life is happy again! I really can't be happy here if Mem and I ain't happy. :smile2:

Will spare you the sordid details other than to say, I drew first blood. And am sorry! 

The rest...back to thread topic.....

IMO Mem's wife has clear and obvious reasons to be into Mem.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

First blood aside, fortunately FW accepted my apology for being a twit.

Back to our regular programming 



Faithful Wife said:


> You'll all be happy to know that @MEM2020 and I made up. Yay, my TAM life is happy again! I really can't be happy here if Mem and I ain't happy. :smile2:
> 
> Will spare you the sordid details other than to say, I drew first blood. And am sorry!
> 
> ...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> You'll all be happy to know that @MEM2020 and I made up. Yay, my TAM life is happy again! I really can't be happy here if Mem and I ain't happy. :smile2:
> 
> Will spare you the sordid details other than to say, I drew first blood. And am sorry!
> 
> ...





MEM2020 said:


> First blood aside, fortunately FW accepted my apology for being a twit.
> 
> Back to our regular programming


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well you at least got to eat some popcorn, right? Sorry no show!!!!! ha ha


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well you at least got to eat some popcorn, right? Sorry no show!!!!! ha ha


No show :crying: How I picture @MEM2020 once he gets going lol


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I understand that the post from Buddy below is one sides, but I think that was the point  I also think it helps bring some balance to the discussion. Anyway, much of the post very much relates to my situation. I took a snippet from Buddy's list below:



Buddy400 said:


> If a woman doesn't care much about sex it could be ....
> 
> Or, when she doesn't feel horny, she doesn't have a problem with not having sex (and thinks her husband shouldn't have a problem either).
> 
> ...


All of the ones I included above I feel in some manner relate to my W (or is my perception of how my W viewed). The big ones would be 

a) *Or, she may think that since sex doesn't make her feel bonded to her husband, it's not possible that sex makes her husband feel bonded to her*. - The best way I can explain this, sex makes me feel emotionally (and physically) closer to my W. It makes me want to be closer to her. It makes me want to show her more affection, be more attentive, give more kisses/hugs, more non sexual things, etc... To me, all these things are interconnected (don't know if this is common with other guys, but really whether it is or isn't makes zero difference to me). Now the issue I felt I would encounter, my W wanted all those other things regardless of whether or not we were having sex with any sort of frequency. So the one thing that was important for me to maintain that connection was deemed optional by my W.

b) *Maybe she's changed from being spontaneous desire to responsive desire, doesn't know that such a thing exists or have a clue how to deal with it.* The desire is undoubtedly there, but the change has definitely occurred. I can see my W is still working this out in her head. She mentioned that she initiated last weekend when she wasn't in the mood, and sure enough 5 minutes in to it she was very turned on. Kind of like a light bulb went off, you don't have to be horny to get in the mood lol. She wishes she was spontaneous, and I understand that b/c it would make things easier. I also think, someone like herself who has never been a high drive person, she may have a bit of an inflated idea of what spontaneous/high drive really means.



Buddy400 said:


> Leaving it all up to her husband deprives her of any agency in her own happiness. Anything her husband does is unlikely to make a difference anyway. If there's going to be a change, she's going to have to want it.
> 
> If and when the breakthrough occurs, the result isn't women who learn to tolerate bad sex, it's happy marriages where both partners enjoy sex and enjoy being with each other.
> 
> ...


If you take the list above (assuming it applies to your situation), there is no reasonable way things can be resolved by the guy doing all the heavy lifting. This also doesn't mean it is all up to the female, but they really need to both be on the same page and put in equal amounts of effort and energy to fix. 

Now, I really don't know if my W and I are statistical outliers. I have to believe that once you take out of the picture the extremes from both ends, this is something that is more relatable to.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well you at least got to eat some popcorn, right? Sorry no show!!!!! ha ha


One thing FW, I believe you mentioned somewhere (lost track of all these desire threads) that it is more likely men lie when being surveyed about desire, which could be a possible explanation why men appear to lose desire at a much lesser extent vs women. Thinking about it further, I wonder if for many men when asked this question, they desire to have sex, and their only option is their W. So it isn't necessarily that they desire their W, just that they desire sex. On the other side, you have females being brutally honest. I have a desire to have sex, but definitely not with him.

Same question, two different POVs resulting into completely different responses.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> One thing FW, I believe you mentioned somewhere (lost track of all these desire threads) that it is more likely men lie when being surveyed about desire, which could be a possible explanation why men appear to lose desire at a much lesser extent vs women. Thinking about it further, I wonder if for many men when asked this question, they desire to have sex, and their only option is their W. So it isn't necessarily that they desire their W, just that they desire sex. On the other side, you have females being brutally honest. I have a desire to have sex, but definitely not with him.
> 
> Same question, two different POVs resulting into completely different responses.




Here are two things I think that do not show themselves completely when we do studies and which don't seem to be understood well by the general population:

There are more HD women than people seem to believe.

There are more LD men than people seem to believe.

And I really think both of these things create a skew in our stats that we can't work out, because it isn't known or understood yet.

As for the male wants her because she's there versus her being desirable, I have no problem with that and I'm sure you are right.

But in the end, it doesn't matter because usually he wants more and she ends up wanting less. So he is at least able to keep doing it. She is not or is not willing to.

How do you force self awareness upon someone?

I'm all for educating them. But they have to want that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> No show :crying: How I picture @MEM2020 once he gets going lol


Is that Lionel Richie???


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ellis,
Since she and I have been working with M2’s responsive desire for a long long time, we are at ease with it. 

It is different though. Sometimes something happens where she is hot to start and that’s fun. But early on I sort of got the pacing on the responsive thing down. 

No pathogen transfer channels until she gets turned on. If we made a porno you’d think I wasn’t all that cranked up to start. But I am cranked up and hard as a rock. I just stay a half step behind M2 on expressing that. 

Thing I keep in mind is that - if I give her time to get hot - she gets hot. 

The only variation on all this is wrestling with scratching and trying to bite, and me trying not to get bit. 





EllisRedding said:


> I understand that the post from Buddy below is one sides, but I think that was the point  I also think it helps bring some balance to the discussion. Anyway, much of the post very much relates to my situation. I took a snippet from Buddy's list below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Ellis,
> 
> No pathogen transfer channels until she gets turned on.


Nothing to add. This just stands on its own. :yawn2:


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

One thing that may be relevant to consider is lesbian bed death. That is a common stereotype. I don't really have any first-hand experience with that, but if it's true, it might give some insights. In that case, I get the impression that both women lose interest in sex. I don't think it's because of something like both women stop working out, gain weight, become slobs, or whatever. It seems like hetero and lesbian bed deaths could have similar underlying causes. On the other hand, I don't think gay bed death is very common.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wilson said:


> One thing that may be relevant to consider is lesbian bed death. That is a common stereotype. I don't really have any first-hand experience with that, but if it's true, it might give some insights. In that case, I get the impression that both women lose interest in sex. I don't think it's because of something like both women stop working out, gain weight, become slobs, or whatever. It seems like hetero and lesbian bed deaths could have similar underlying causes. On the other hand, I don't think gay bed death is very common.


I actually think there’s no real science behind LBD. Last I read, whatever 1980’s study it was based on was bunked.

If there is some better science, I could buy it because it’s still women losing desire for one partner over time, only it’s now going to happen to both of them.

But without knowing I’m not sure. It would fit a piece of the puzzle. But does it?

I’ve known a lot of gay people. Overall, both men and women seemed more sexual/open than straight people. Not saying this is true and I don’t have stats. But lesbians I have known are horn dogs. Not sure if they keep desire high in LTR’s. There’s mixed results for that, similar to the straight people in my life.

Also I live in a certain liberal area. And I don’t talk to my gay friends as much about personal matters. I also don’t join gay forums even though I’m bi. I have in the past and it was always too sexual for me (fans face). But if I was on those forums I would probably get some idea if there are LBD threads, if it happens, and what that community feels about it.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> @Personal
> 
> I have a question...not formed very well yet so I’ll talk it out.
> 
> ...



Well it is emotional and bonding, in that it is a shared, very intimate and ideally pleasurable experience. Yet I don't feel it is in itself emotional and bonding, since I have had sex without feeling a bond with someone and the emotions haven't been deeper than general happiness.

That said on one occasion I have had sex with someone, who I felt utter hate and contempt for at that time. It was with my now ex-wife, after her infidelity during a fortunately short lived attempt at reconciliation. Yet I still orgasmed and still felt physical pleasure, although my feelings of hate and contempt coloured the experience badly. Which is why I realised I should no longer ever have sex with that person again.

So for me not all sex is bonding (with respect to wanting to stay with someone or do it again). Yet it is in some way always emotional, yet those emotions will vary between surface, shallow or deep depending upon who, what, when, how and why. So some sex has been bonding in that it we have that shared experience, while some other sex hasn't been bonding at all despite it being a shared experience.

When my wife and I first started having sex together, neither of us were in love with each other. Yet we were sexually attracted to one another and did like each other. So it was a pleasure, albeit a bit awkward and clumsy, because it turned out she was quite inexperienced. In sharing those experiences it did help us bond together emotionally, yet it may not have been the case if the who, what, when, how and why was different.

So I have had sex with people I have been neutral on, liked, loved and also hated. Yet sex with someone I hated did physically feel good, while sex with someone I love has sometimes been meh as well. So the sex being good seems to be more a measure of how good the sex itself feels, versus how emotionally invested I am in affecting my experience.

My wife and I are highly sexual, we flirt, are lewd and are lustful. Yet once we're finished, we are both happy (my wife more than me) to get off of each other and do something else without being physically intertwined. We're not big huggers so there is that as well. That said with little exception, we are lustful, flirtatious, and touch each other sexually explicitly every day even when we don't have sex everyday. So groping sexual organs, kissing/using teeth and breath, to give tingles down ones neck, flashing and the like are frequent. While cuddles are not so much.

With my wife though she was a late starter, so she came with all sorts of religious baggage and traditional ethnic baggage with older parents that were adults and teens in World War II Sicily. Yet once she decided **** it, I'm not waiting anymore she jumped in with both feet and hasn't looked back. Finding out she really likes sex, no matter how crude and base it can be.

I'm not sure if I have answered your question. At the end of the day perhaps my perspective isn't very different, It may just be down to a difference of interpretation rather than experience.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I think the general consensus is that many women lose desire over the course of a LTR. The question is in part the reasons (hormonal/biological, aren't meant for monogamy, family/life stresses, dud of a lover, etc...). Also, where does the responsibility lie in trying to fix this (assuming it can be fixed).


Instead of wanting to fix it, what about accepting it and not trying to fix it at all?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The answers to your two early questions are both yes. And to her credit, she has honestly tried to respond.


Cool, so having expressed that to her (which I think it's great you do and have). Has your wife also expressed to you any sexual dissatisfaction or boredom, with what you sometimes do together?



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> We are of one mind in this and it works for us.


I'm glad it works for both of you.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Personal said:


> Cool, so having expressed that to her (which I think it's great you do and have). Has your wife also expressed to you any sexual dissatisfaction or boredom, with what you sometimes do together?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad it works for both of you.


Quite the opposite. She has repeatedly expressed complete satisfaction. She is happiest with routine. She knows what she likes, that's pretty narrow in scope, and she is happiest with that. Her only dissatisfaction comes when I go pushing for something new or different.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Personal said:


> Instead of wanting to fix it, what about accepting it and not trying to fix it at all?


So if something changes along the way in a relationship the answer is just to accept it and let it be :scratchhead:

Also, "fix it" is probably not the correct word.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Personal said:


> Instead of wanting to fix it, what about accepting it and not trying to fix it at all?


'Address' is probably a better word that fix. Unless we are presuming something is broken somewhere by default. I don't always know that a fix can be applied, but certainly, hopefully the parties can both take steps to modify or make changes that result in benefits for both.

Can only speak from my experience. There is no 'fixing' lack of libido in my spouses case. She has gone through menopause prior to age 50. I indicated previously that I dated a woman my wifes age now, who had a hysterectomy in her mid 30's ... effectively menopause. I can't speak to whether or not she was on hormone treatment, but she worked out regularly and was pretty much like a guy when it came to libido.

My wife has been very open and honest. She flat out no longer thinks about sex, or has sexual thoughts, which she was very aware of and shared with me. We are still sexually active, albeit with a much reduced frequency. Which I'm OK with. Have made clear and she is onboard with not being OK with a sexual blackout. 

In my case I can also acknowledge had I NOT had the 6 years of lots of sex while dating, I may feel very differently had I moved from a sexless marriage that had turned toxic, to a relationship with the standard 2 to 3 year decline of sex from a torrent to a trickle.

Basically, I got it out of my system. And I love, support, and appreciate my wife ... for as long as she does the same.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> So if something changes along the way in a relationship the answer is just to accept it and let it be :scratchhead:
> 
> Also, "fix it" is probably not the correct word.


*I* feel that is the the most often disregarded and discounted OPTION among those few that exists.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Deejo said:


> 'Address' is probably a better word that fix. Unless we are presuming something is broken somewhere by default. I don't always know that a fix can be applied, but certainly, hopefully the parties can both take steps to modify or make changes that result in benefits for both.


Thanks Deejo, I actually just updated my comment as well since fix is not really the accurate word


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Deejo said:


> 'Address' is probably a better word that fix.


In sooooo many ways is this is true. It is the more "right". It is kinder. And it is more effective.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> So if something changes along the way in a relationship the answer is just to accept it and let it be :scratchhead:


Sure sometimes, why not?

In fact my wife and I have changed in many ways, through the decades we have been together. Of which so far, we're both simply accepting it and letting it be.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Personal said:


> Sure sometimes, why not?
> 
> In fact my wife and I have changed in many ways, through the decades we have been together. Of which so far, we're both simply accepting it and letting it be.


We go so far as to think accepting is the default position and those things that need to be systematically addressed are the outliers.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Personal said:


> Sure sometimes, why not?
> 
> In fact my wife and I have changed in many ways, through the decades we have been together. Of which so far, we're both simply accepting it and letting it be.


Well, when the changes have a negative impact on the relationship, I see very little to gain from just letting it be...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

EllisRedding said:


> Well, when the changes have a negative impact on the relationship, I see very little to gain from just letting it be...


Agreed. Lets not kid ourselves, "Letting it be" is what nets us 90% of our posters. Something is having a negative impact on the relationship, and it isn't being adequately addressed or dealt with by either or both parties.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Well for me the letting it be, is letting them be whoever they have become. If that becoming, isn't compatible with there being an us, or an us as it stands. I think it's time to let them go, or to change the nature of the relationship.

Yet for me wanting to change the nature of the relationship, doesn't mean wanting to change them.

I don't try to conform to my wife's wants, I simply conform to who I am at any given time. She is welcome to accept that, or renegotiate how us works, or if that doesn't work for her, and or myself she or I can move on. Of which the same also applies to me.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> So if something changes along the way in a relationship the answer is just to accept it and let it be :scratchhead:
> 
> Also, "fix it" is probably not the correct word.


You can accept it and not let it be I suppose. In your case your wife IS addressing the issue so neither really applies.

I spent say 10 years not accepting it and hoping it would get better all the while being miserable. 

5 years not accepting it, working on it, still being miserable and still hoping.

Then hope died, I accepted it and told her it was her turn. Dropped the rope so to speak, there is no capability for a spontaneous sexual thought, or a reactive response to an initiation, I'm done pursuing. Then you see what happens.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> *I* feel that is the the most often disregarded and discounted OPTION among those few that exists.


I agree that "accept and let it be" is a perfectly valid response, and often the best path forward. As we have said many times, you can push for change (which will negatively impact the relationship if done too forcefully and/or for too long), leave, or accept the new reality. If you aren't willing to leave, and have given up on pushing for change, then accepting and making the best of it is the optimal choice.

One's life can be filled with many blessings even if it is not filled with copious amounts of satisfying sex.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Holdingontoit said:


> I agree that "accept and let it be" is a perfectly valid response, and often the best path forward. As we have said many times, you can push for change (which will negatively impact the relationship if done too forcefully and/or for too long), leave, or accept the new reality. If you aren't willing to leave, and have given up on pushing for change, then accepting and making the best of it is the optimal choice.
> 
> One's life can be filled with many blessings even if it is not filled with copious amounts of satisfying sex.












I don't disagree with you altogeter. But satisfying sex makes the other blessings way better. I just wanted an excuse to use my gif.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Been loathe to posit this.
May not be obvious to a non, or casual observer the emotional quandary, and divided loyalties of modern society do create tremendous emotional turmoil seldom admitted by other than the true academic adepts.

Of note too, the new relationship energy release hormones which alleviate depression, and can become as addictive as a drug, overall our culture promotes those early feelings as love, thus the idea among some they no longer "feel" in love, yet real love can only develop after those have passed. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...604/the-behavioral-shutdown-theory-depression


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm not a female... :laugh: but, in one of our many discussions about sex in our marriage, my wife told me that none of her female colleagues - all in her 50s - had sex with their husbands anymore. She seemed to believe that that was the norm.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

red oak said:


> Been loathe to posit this.
> May not be obvious to a non, or casual observer the emotional quandary, and divided loyalties of modern society do create tremendous emotional turmoil seldom admitted by other than the true academic adepts.
> 
> Of note too, the new relationship energy release hormones which alleviate depression, and can become as addictive as a drug, overall our culture promotes those early feelings as love, thus the idea among some they no longer "feel" in love, *yet real love can only develop after those have passed.*
> ...


Very important point!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> I agree that "accept and let it be" is a perfectly valid response, and often the best path forward. As we have said many times, you can push for change (which will negatively impact the relationship if done too forcefully and/or for too long), leave, or accept the new reality. * If you aren't willing to leave, and have given up on pushing for change, then accepting and making the best of it is the optimal choice.*


Missing the mark of what I intended by a mile. You are talking about resignation. Not acceptance.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Very important point!


Something I should have added in the post: some who lose the desire in a long term relationship could have had mild depression never addressed, and once the new has worn off it returns.
Even mild depression can effect sex drive, and unless root cause is addressed it could continue.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I'm not a female... :laugh: but, in one of our many discussions about sex in our marriage, my wife told me that none of her female colleagues - all in her 50s - had sex with their husbands anymore. She seemed to believe that that was the norm.


Might be more common than I'm aware of.

Doesn't make it healthy.

Drinking from lead cups was normal at one point as well.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I'm not a female... :laugh: but, in one of our many discussions about sex in our marriage, my wife told me that none of her female colleagues - all in her 50s - had sex with their husbands anymore. She seemed to believe that that was the norm.


This point came up elsewhere and also, someone pointed out that when I talk about my friends experiences, my friends are more like me. And that what happens is of course you’re going to attract and gravitate towards people who are like you. Especially with friends.

Ok so does that mean the lady friends who say no women want sex are correct?

Or are my lady friends who love sex, don’t stop giving bjs after marriage, and want great sexual experiences correct?

The answer seems obvious to me. The group like my friends prove that the group of ladies who think no women like sex are wrong. We do exist, there are a lot of us, and we talk to each other about sex stuff. So we know each other is up to all kinds of things.

Now if the ladies who just don’t want to believe other ladies have that much sex or like it want to insist we don’t exist, that’s ok with me. But it causes a dumb unicorn effect on something that is normal and common. I’m not going to barge into a woman like that’s life and try to make her believe I exist. Instead I just don’t have that kind of conversation with a woman like that. It’s not my job to burst her bubble.

Please note the list I made above about what my lady friends are like (they simply like sex, they are not wanton *****s). Seems there is no room for women to just love sex without also being *****s in some people’s minds (meaning in men’s too). 

My group of friends being mostly sexual people on average, may not be representative of the population at large at all. Of course.

But we do exist. And there are lots of us, so I have no reason to think that groups of ladies who think we don’t exist represent the population at large either.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I'm not a female... :laugh: but, in one of our many discussions about sex in our marriage, my wife told me that none of her female colleagues - all in her 50s - had sex with their husbands anymore. She seemed to believe that that was the norm.


Do they have any sort of sexual activity at all? Do they masturbate, think about sexy guys, or anything like that? Or is the sexual aspect of their lives just gone?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I agree with some of the thoughts regarding ‘repressed desire’. I think it is a thing. A practical question: how would one be able to distinguish repressed desire from genuine low desire? 
Some men (including me), seem to have experienced their wife coming out as a bit of ‘dirty girl’ eventually (I would use a stronger word, but don’t want to be accused a ****-shaming, even though that’s a massive compliment in my book...at least as far as it concerns the husband ).

I understand that if you had ALL the information available, and at the end of a life time (given the sum of all experiences) perhaps one would be able to make a determination whether one was LD or HD (or somewhere along the spectrum). But even that I would find problematic: what if she met someone else who would have made her **** come out but instead ended up with a boring vanilla guy? Perhaps that LD woman was unlucky. Or what if she just wasn’t attracted to him but because she is a very loyal person (and loved other qualities), sex was not The priority for her. Realistically speaking, I still think there are so many variables and possibilities that a simple LD vs HD determination can never account for.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

red oak said:


> Even mild depression can effect sex drive, and unless root cause is addressed it could continue.


Or you can take anti-depressants that kill the sex drive... :smile2:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

wilson said:


> Do they have any sort of sexual activity at all? Do they masturbate, think about sexy guys, or anything like that? Or is the sexual aspect of their lives just gone?


Unfortunately, I don't know this. And I can't ask my wife again since we are separating. No point in talking about this stuff anymore. My educated guess is that the sexual aspect is gone from their life. Like my wife. I also take it that the husbands are not interested anymore. I don't know... I'm very HD (at 55) so I find it difficult to relate to all this. How can you not be interested in sex? :laugh:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The answers to your two early questions are both yes. And to her credit, she has honestly tried to respond.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Same here but regarding the last paragraph, the question I then often ask her is: how would you know if you never tried? 
She usually rolls her eyes at this and thinks I’m going to make her do something hotwifey again....But really. How WOULD she know? I realise it’s a nice thing to say but to be fair, she could be having (even more) mind blowing sex with some hulk with significantly more girth.
And your wife could ‘accept’ more or different repertoire from someone else...Nobody knows.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> This point came up elsewhere and also, someone pointed out that when I talk about my friends experiences, my friends are more like me. And that what happens is of course you’re going to attract and gravitate towards people who are like you. Especially with friends.
> 
> 1. Ok so does that mean the lady friends who say no women want sex are correct?
> 
> ...


#1 Not for all women, just correct for the flock of chicks they associate with. 

#2 Correct for the flock of HD'ers you associate with, question is is that 20% of all women, 50%? 80%?

20% is easily believable. 50% is harder to swallow but maybe? 80%, no way. 

Interesting how easily you can call a group of women someone else describes as wrong in this case. 

It is some kind of built in bias to think whatever your issue is is the norm and identify with other examples that are 'worse'. Confirmation bias? I forget. 

I've heard several times from my wife that I'm lucky cause you know, so and close relative hasn't had sex in some # of years. Several meaning, 2 or 3 widely spaced occasions in the midst of a heated discussion.It is a defense mechanism.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

In Absentia said:


> Unfortunately, I don't know this. And I can't ask my wife again since we are separating. No point in talking about this stuff anymore. My educated guess is that the sexual aspect is gone from their life. Like my wife. I also take it that the husbands are not interested anymore. I don't know... I'm very HD (at 55) so I find it difficult to relate to all this. How can you not be interested in sex? :laugh:


Once again ... this just points to exactly what the majority of us acknowledge, save for the exception of FW (and to be clear I'm glad she can count herself among and point to the sample of women she does)

And I don't doubt for a moment In Absentia, if you decide to get out there and jump into the dating pool, you are going to meet women who will want to do things to you that you never imagined. It's also a safe bet, on average, that if you partner long term with one of those women ... her desire to out of the blue give you BJ's while driving down the highway, or put on a naughty nurse uniform and insist on doing a prostate exam is going to drop off. Please feel free to swap your sex act of choice for the hypotheticals (or are they?) that I've inserted.

And FW, if this makes you shake your head, I obviously have to move myself and my spouse out to your neck of the woods, because there is obviously something in the air. I believe you, to be clear. Just not my, experience with any relationship that goes beyond the 3 year mark.

I don't think this is a problem. There is a big difference between a drop-off and a complete drought. I've experienced both. I've also experienced the Rains down in Africa (Toto). As I summed up before, I just take the female libido for what it is, and respond according to my own needs.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> #1 Not for all women, just correct for the flock of chicks they associate with.
> 
> #2 Correct for the flock of HD'ers you associate with, question is is that 20% of all women, 50%? 80%?
> 
> ...


They are wrong that WE (HD women) don’t exist. Because we do.

They are NOT wrong that plenty of women believe we don’t exist.

They are also not wrong about what they want for themsevles, and they are not wrong for being LD if that is the case. They are not wrong that many many other women don’t like or want sex. They are not wrong in that sense at all. 

More clear?

As for how many HD women...it’s still a scale. So yeah, 20% maybe if the highest HD only. That maybe too high.

If I had to take an overall guess, I would just split it 60/40. 

60 like or love or at least want sex (all the way up to nymphos), and the other 40 either only kind of like and want it, all the way down to zero desire. But that just a stab at a guess. And those in the middle range probably all become HD and LD due to NRE and other factors across their lives, so you would have to take several over lapping surveys to account for that. Again, I’m only guessing. And I want to put the 60 much higher because of my confirmation bias, so 60 is an attempt to be more reasonable.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> A little short on time so just doing a quick drive by. I have to agree with SM here. I know FW keeps focusing on men gaining weight, almost as if it is inevitable, and TBH, this is a bit of a head scratcher to me.



That’s prolly cos you nevva has seen muscle turn into fat! I’m telling ya, the wife’s tales are all true!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Once again ... this just points to exactly what the majority of us acknowledge, save for the exception of FW (and to be clear I'm glad she can count herself among and point to the sample of women she does)
> 
> And I don't doubt for a moment In Absentia, if you decide to get out there and jump into the dating pool, you are going to meet women who will want to do things to you that you never imagined. It's also a safe bet, on average, that if you partner long term with one of those women ... her desire to out of the blue give you BJ's while driving down the highway, or put on a naughty nurse uniform and insist on doing a prostate exam is going to drop off. Please feel free to swap your sex act of choice for the hypotheticals (or are they?) that I've inserted.
> 
> ...


Deej....all the field reports coming back are telling me the 3 year mark is a real thing.

So while I can’t relate personally, apparently this is a real thing. Really. 

And actually, I’m not sure I have ever advocated that all HD women will always remain HD for one man. Because it didn’t really come up in society’s consciousness that this occurs only one way (she loses interest, not him) until recently. And I really never gave it any thought before. I honestly would have guessed that both men and women lose interest at roughly the same rate and around the same time. So I felt that in order to keep the fire alive both were going to have to stoke it. I did not know it is only her fire that has gone out, not his.

And then we all had 400 posts about whose job it is to stoke her fire, his or hers. And the wheels on the bus....


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Her objection was that she doesn't like bellies slapping together as it is both a distraction and prevents the depth/angle of penetration from going where it works best for her.



I just had a mental image of Jabba the Hutt having sex with his wife (not the slave one, the one that looks like a man with headphones, the real wife....). Thanks for that 

Btw do you take everything literally that your wife says to you?  
If my wife said that to me, my first thought would be: “****, she really despises fat guys!” Then get the f down to do 50 push ups. Even though I’m about 4kg under my ‘ideal’ weight.
Better safe than sorry.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I agree with that and also feel that the notion that females can not tolerate male weight gain is perhaps misleading.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That’s racialist!
Everyone knows that only white dudes get fat. 


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

InMyPrime said:


> I just had a mental image of Jabba the Hutt having sex with his wife (not the slave one, the one that looks like a man with headphones, the real wife....). Thanks for that
> 
> Btw do you take everything literally that your wife says to you?
> If my wife said that to me, my first thought would be: “****, she really despises fat guys!” Then get the f down to do 50 push ups. Even though I’m about 4kg under my ‘ideal’ weight.
> ...


My wife is actually quite literal in her communication. She does not go for subtlety or methaphor. She very much says what she means and means what she says. 

But she's exceedingly conflict avoidant. So if she will simply opt out of communication if she s having stronger/negative thoughts, or fears starting a disagreement. In the end, when she keeps her mouth shut is far more telling, and therefore concerning, than anything she actually says.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I honestly would have guessed that both men and women lose interest at roughly the same rate and around the same time. So I felt that in order to keep the fire alive both were going to have to stoke it. I did not know it is only her fire that has gone out, not his.


I do think the desire/attraction for his partner goes down in men as well. I know I'm not as consumed about having sex with my wife as I was at the beginning of the relationship. But the difference with men is they still have an underlying, consistent desire for sexual stimulation and activity. I still like having sex with my wife because I like to have sexual feelings. There are a lot of other reasons I want to have sex with my wife, but my wife is not the reason I want to experience sexual feelings.

It seems a woman's drive is more purpose-driven. When there's a reason to be sexual, she has sexual desire. But if there's not a reason, the desire isn't there. That's somewhat the basis of the MMSLP guide. Probably the mistake a lot of men unknowingly make is assuming that sex will always be there and they get complacent about creating a sexual atmosphere. The men have a underlying hunger for sexual activity that lasts even after the early passion has faded. Women seem to have less of that, so that desire for sex fades unless the guy is doing something to keep her in that mindset.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My wife is actually quite literal in her communication. She does not go for subtlety or methaphor. She very much says what she means and means what she says.



Do you think that could the reason why you believe her that she DOESN’T want to expand her sexual repertoire? 
Joking. I have no clue what your wife is like. But I think if I believed everything my wife told me, we would still be having sex through a sheet...(she’s not even Jewish; just for emphasis of her ‘conservative’ nature ).


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Might be more common than I'm aware of.
> 
> Doesn't make it healthy.
> 
> Drinking from lead cups was normal at one point as well.


We totally agree... :smile2:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Once again ... this just points to exactly what the majority of us acknowledge, save for the exception of FW (and to be clear I'm glad she can count herself among and point to the sample of women she does)
> 
> And I don't doubt for a moment In Absentia, if you decide to get out there and jump into the dating pool, you are going to meet women who will want to do things to you that you never imagined. It's also a safe bet, on average, that if you partner long term with one of those women ... her desire to out of the blue give you BJ's while driving down the highway, or put on a naughty nurse uniform and insist on doing a prostate exam is going to drop off. Please feel free to swap your sex act of choice for the hypotheticals (or are they?) that I've inserted.
> 
> ...



I don't doubt it drops off... what baffles me is the total lack of sex drive. My wife went from highly sexual, to responsive, to no sex... gradually. I guess this is pretty normal. And I guess the no sex drive and not wanting sex at all is also normal during and after the menopause. Maybe I've been unlucky, but being a monk in my fifties is not - and will never be - on my wish list... I'm not kidding myself that, once separated, I will have a sex life, but at least it will be my choice.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I don't doubt it drops off... what baffles me is the total lack of sex drive. My wife went from highly sexual, to responsive, to no sex... gradually. I guess this is pretty normal. And I guess the no sex drive and not wanting sex at all is also normal during and after the menopause. Maybe I've bee unlucky, but being a monk in my fifties is not - and will never be - on my wish list... I'm not kidding myself that, once separated, I will have a sex life, but at least it will be my choice.


If the HD was only at the very beginning...makes sense. NRE.

But if her HD lasted into the relationship for years strong, after kids and all, and then it waned and dried up, that sounds like a hormonal thing. 

Not that any of this matters for you right now, sorry.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> FW,
> 
> Given how smart you are, I don’t recall ever taking you to school before, but as you appear to be trying and failing to understand male desire as it correlates to weight....
> 
> ...



I kind of agree with both of you. Maybe there’s a little nuance there...I think men might be more likely to tolerate their wife’s weight gain (still find her sexually attractive despite the gain). Whereas perhaps a woman might not (I don’t know about that. She could also be using his swimming rings as an excuse to justify why she may have lost attraction for him too.)

But I also agree that a man is probably going to be more picky to begin with when choosing a partner and probably will go out of his way to avoid an overweight woman, if he can. I think we can be vein like that and simply rely on ‘visuals’ too much.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> They are wrong that WE (HD women) don’t exist. Because we do.
> 
> They are NOT wrong that plenty of women believe we don’t exist.
> 
> ...



Seems reasonable, I'd mark it more 40/60 but I am in the group recently singed by the menopause period so there is that. I have trouble remembering anything before that whole 8-10 year transition period. And she was 'well behaved', nothing particularly erratic in her reactions. Except for sex. My mother was a raving nut :surprise:.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Missing the mark of what I intended by a mile. You are talking about resignation. Not acceptance.


Nope. I was suggesting that people in that situation choose acceptance and focus on their blessings. If they can't do that, then they should move themselves into the leave category.

Just because I chose resignation, frustration and resentment does not mean I advocate that for others.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > Missing the mark of what I intended by a mile. You are talking about resignation. Not acceptance.
> ...


I know some of us assume that because we know your story. But sometimes it does get confusing if you are talking about yourself versus what others should do.

I don’t think most cases are like yours in a lot of ways.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> 60 like or love or at least want sex (all the way up to nymphos), and the other 40 either only kind of like and want it, all the way down to zero desire. But that just a stab at a guess. And those in the middle range probably all become HD and LD due to NRE and other factors across their lives, so you would have to take several over lapping surveys to account for that. Again, I’m only guessing. And I want to put the 60 much higher because of my confirmation bias, so 60 is an attempt to be more reasonable.


Regardless, the percentage in the world is not necessarily the same percentage we see here. I would guess that the LD threads we see on TAM are probably 80% where the LD person has essentially zero sexual desire and zero desire to do anything about it. I'm pretty sure the HD person would be jumping for joy if their LD partner said the reason was something easily fixable like working out more or not dropping their wet towels on the floor. In just about all the threads on TAM, the LD person doesn't have any real reasons why they have no desire and are somewhat adverse to trying to improve things.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wilson said:


> Regardless, the percentage in the world is not necessarily the same percentage we see here. I would guess that the LD threads we see on TAM are probably 80% where the LD person has essentially zero sexual desire and *zero desire to do anything about it*. I'm pretty sure the HD person would be jumping for joy if their LD partner said the reason was something easily fixable like working out more or not dropping their wet towels on the floor. In just about all the threads on TAM, the LD person doesn't have any real reasons why they have no desire and are somewhat adverse to trying to improve things.


Oh I absolutely believe we do not have an average population slice here at TAM.

To the bold part though, I don't think we know that the LD population that most TAM threads are about have no desire to do anything about it. Because they are not posting here, only their spouse is. We do not have the full story, and I would guess in at least half of the cases, the LD spouse we are not hearing from does want to do something about it, but there's more to the story.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

When it comes to desire in a long term relationships, here are a few other perspectives:



If you have a high libido in a LTR, is there a way to reduce it? At the end of the day, no, not really. 
If you have a low libido in a LTR, is there a way to increase it? I randomly thought of a potato and sure enough those can be used to cure low libidos!!!!! 
When someone's libido suddenly decreases in a LTR is there a reason why? Can we blame potatoes? I think we could build a plausible argument. 
When someone's libido suddenly increases in a LTR is there a reason why? At the end of the day it is a complete mystery and the other partner is considered "lucky." 

https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/article/biohacking-articles/best-foods-supplements-sex-life/

I'm being sarcastic here. But if we really understood increasing libidos as a result we would understand decreasing libidos. For those that need to manage or reduce a high libido and are in a mismatched marriage the mainstream recommendations are to masturbate or make arrangements for an open marriage. Ironically the same advice is given to those with a low libido as a documented way to increase it via self exploration and new partners. Everyone stop and think about that for a minute would you! 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Increasing libido isn't the only way to improve the situation. Let's consider these explanations as to why someone has sex:

1. To avoid negative consequences. They may have sex because they want to avoid their partner being grumpy or getting divorced

2. To make their partner happy. Even if they don't desire sex, they know it makes their partner happy. They do it because of love or appreciation for their partner.

3. Their partner turns them on. Their partner has done whatever to make the person turned on in the moment.

4. They desire sex. They have sex with their partner because desiring sex is something that is normally part of who they are.

#4 is probably unrealistic in practice. It's great if it happens, but it's difficult to actually make happen.

#2 and #3 can be achievable with a LD partner. It is going to take a lot more work and consideration of what needs to be done, but it is achievable provided the couple love each other. 

#1 is probably what the HD partner most often ends up with. However, this has a lot to do with how the HD partner approaches the situation. If it's approached with ultimatums, then likely they'll end up with reluctant duty sex.

So while I think it's hopeless to try to make an LD person into a naturally HD person, I don't think the marriage is necessarily hopeless. If the couple can work to build love and compassion, then likely they can end up with some kind of loving intimacy in the relationship. The HD person will need to reconsider what sort of intimacy would make them happy, and the LD person will need to commit to making intimacy a part of the relationship.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

wilson said:


> Let's consider these explanations as to why someone has sex:


My wife and I have lots of sex because we enjoy the sex we share and want more of what we enjoy.

If either of us didn't enjoy the sex we share, we certainly wouldn't want to keep sharing that sex.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Personal said:


> My wife and I have lots of sex because we enjoy the sex we share and want more of what we enjoy.
> 
> If either of us didn't enjoy the sex we share, we certainly wouldn't want to keep sharing that sex.


I'm sure there's many things you do with your wife that are much more for your wife than for yourself. For example, maybe she likes going the opera and you couldn't care less about opera. As a good husband, you go because you know it makes her happy and you feel good from seeing her enjoyment. As long as you didn't find the opera abhorrent, you'd probably go and make the best of it. Sex can be the same way. If your wife lost her interest in sex but still loved you, she might still have sex and enjoy making you happy. It could be that she would have been just as happy to watch TV, but since sex makes you happy she'll do that for you. I think a solution like that should be something that the HD/LD couple should strive for at a minimum before calling it quits.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

wilson said:


> I'm sure there's many things you do with your wife that are much more for your wife than for yourself. For example, maybe she likes going the opera and you couldn't care less about opera.


Actually there aren't many things at all, in fact I seldom ever do anything that is much more for my wife over myself. In fact if I was like that, my wife would vaclang me pretty damned quickly.

As to your example, what follows are some similar ones of mine.

She likes going to markets, I loathe them, so with extremely rare exception I don't ever go (that's what her friends are for).

She enjoys meeting or seeing feminist authors do talks, I simply have no interest in that so I don't ever go ((that's what her friends are for).

She likes visiting historic homes held in historical trusts, I mostly don't so I mostly don't go (that's what her friends are sometimes for).

She always likes visiting small town museums, while I only occasionally like visiting small town museums so I occasionally visit them.

She likes live theatre and so do I so we both go, although that doesn't preclude her doing the same with friends.

She likes live music and so do I so we both go, although that doesn't preclude her doing the same with friends.

She likes visiting art galleries and so do I so we both go, although that doesn't preclude her doing the same with friends.

I only do what I want to do, if that coincides with my wife great, if it doesn't it's still great.

On the occasions my wife asks me what I think of what she is wearing, I tell it like it is. If I like it, I tell her I like it. If I don't like it, I tell her I don't like it.

When my wife doesn't like me, she tells me she doesn't like me and I do the same with her.

When my wife likes me, she tells me she likes me and I do the same.

On and on etc.

Neither my wife or I are in a relationship, where either of us feel compelled to blow smoke up each others rear ends. Or suppress our own wants and desires in order to please the other. We're pretty direct, and feel no compulsion to tiptoe around each other lest we hurt the others feelings.

We accept each other as we are, and are not wanting to change each other into other people.



> As a good husband, you go because you know it makes her happy and you feel good from seeing her enjoyment.


Being a good husband, happy wife, happy life, and all that other nonsense, seldom make better marriages.

Starting from a base of being honest with oneself, being who you are without apology, being true to oneself and accepting others as they are is a great place to start.

You see this rubbish all the time.

"You only want me for sex." - "No I don't I love you, blah blah, blah..." - Instead of saying "Yes!"

"I don't want you looking at pornography, or we can't be together." - I promise I won't look at it." - Instead of saying "I like it and will look at it, since I'm fine with it. If you don't like that, you can move on or get over it."

My long term sexual relationship has been easy, in fact it's pretty much an extension of just continuing as we were in the beginning with a few obstacles thrown in along the way. We still share an enormous amount of frequent, varied and fun sex, we still spend plenty of time together and like each others company. While we also spend plenty of time doing things apart and don't smother one another. We don't dictate to the other, we don't expect to control each other and know we either accept the other as they are or we can just let each other go.

A lot of people seem to have this idea, that they need to follow a script. Flowers, gifts, dinner, dishes, cuddles, doing things to please the other at ones own expense and all the rest.

Yet what works varies, know the other person and know them well, be true to yourself and accept them as they are.

If one doesn't know the other person, and doesn't know them well, and won't or can't be true to themselves and accept the other person as they are. Then the best thing would be to let them go and move on.

If one isn't compatible, then let them go altogether or be open to not holding on tight. Since almost all (probably all) people, can't be absolutely everything to someone else in every way.



> As long as you didn't find the opera abhorrent, you'd probably go and make the best of it.


No I wouldn't.



> Sex can be the same way.


I hope not, sex like that is anathema to me.



> If your wife lost her interest in sex but still loved you, she might still have sex and enjoy making you happy.


My wife is not responsible for my happiness, the only person responsible for my happiness is myself. The same applies to her as well.

If she isn't enjoying the sex, then she would be a damned fool to want to have sex to please me if she didn't enjoy it.



> It could be that she would have been just as happy to watch TV, but since sex makes you happy she'll do that for you.


Then she ought to just watch TV, rather than engage in something she doesn't enjoy.



> I think a solution like that should be something that the HD/LD couple should strive for at a minimum before calling it quits.


I think a solution like that, encourages loathing and resentment, by the accommodating partner towards the wanting partner. I think that mindset and approach, is toxic to vibrant and healthy ongoing long term sexual relationships.

In closing here is a pro tip, only have sex when you enjoy it and want it.

Otherwise, just say no.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> If the HD was only at the very beginning...makes sense. NRE.
> 
> But if her HD lasted into the relationship for years strong, after kids and all, and then it waned and dried up, that sounds like a hormonal thing.
> 
> Not that any of this matters for you right now, sorry.


In hindsight, I think it was NRE, although she was very sexual for a few years... her mental status then complicated things. She's always put herself first, unfortunately failing to communicate properly, leaving me in the dark. Had I known the real situation (which she never disclosed to me), we might still be together. I would have behaved differently.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

wilson said:


> I do think the desire/attraction for his partner goes down in men as well. I know I'm not as consumed about having sex with my wife as I was at the beginning of the relationship. But the difference with men is they still have an underlying, consistent desire for sexual stimulation and activity. I still like having sex with my wife because I like to have sexual feelings. There are a lot of other reasons I want to have sex with my wife, but my wife is not the reason I want to experience sexual feelings.


Uh... I still desire my wife very much... shame we couldn't just put our differences behind us. I think I might be the exception, though...


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Personal said:


> I think a solution like that, encourages loathing and resentment, by the accommodating partner towards the wanting partner. I think that mindset and approach, is toxic to vibrant and healthy ongoing long term sexual relationships.
> 
> In closing here is a pro tip, only have sex when you enjoy it and want it.
> 
> Otherwise, just say no.


What if she lost her desire for sex but still loved you and wanted to be married to you? Would you divorce her even if she was having sex because she enjoyed making you happy? I don't see that she would necessarily be loathing it.

I guess one aspect of having an attitude of "You must be passionate about sex or I'm leaving" is that the other person probably will have a lot more self-motivation to stay passionate about sex. If they feel their interest waning, they are going to be a lot more motivated to investigate the issue and figure out what they can do to fix it. It probably helps them have a better mindset that makes it easier to stay interested in sex. If they think it doesn't matter if their interest wanes, then they might not care as much. I suppose it's like having the attitude of "You must be 100% faithful or I'm leaving". Then if they feel themselves being tempted, they know the consequences are severe and may be less likely to cheat. It's probably best for these kinds of requirements to be clearly understood at the beginning. I suppose many of us just assume our partner shares our beliefs about intimacy or fidelity in a marriage, but, as we often see on TAM, that's usually not the case.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wilson,

I really enjoy reading your posts. Our approach is different than Personal’s. 

Here we see it that marriage is a physical thing, and you have to prioritize physicality. But aside from the passionate desire to please and be playful with each other, we sort of accept whatever happens in bed.




wilson said:


> What if she lost her desire for sex but still loved you and wanted to be married to you? Would you divorce her even if she was having sex because she enjoyed making you happy? I don't see that she would necessarily be loathing it.
> 
> I guess one aspect of having an attitude of "You must be passionate about sex or I'm leaving" is that the other person probably will have a lot more self-motivation to stay passionate about sex. If they feel their interest waning, they are going to be a lot more motivated to investigate the issue and figure out what they can do to fix it. It probably helps them have a better mindset that makes it easier to stay interested in sex. If they think it doesn't matter if their interest wanes, then they might not care as much. I suppose it's like having the attitude of "You must be 100% faithful or I'm leaving". Then if they feel themselves being tempted, they know the consequences are severe and may be less likely to cheat. It's probably best for these kinds of requirements to be clearly understood at the beginning. I suppose many of us just assume our partner shares our beliefs about intimacy or fidelity in a marriage, but, as we often see on TAM, that's usually not the case.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t know. But I do know my daughter supported his worthless ass for their entire marriage while he refused to work and opened a business that failed that she paid all the losses on.


I hear a lot of these stories lately (and I believe them), women pairing up with worthless men who don't work, don't want sex and don't seem to bring anything to the relationship at all.

This didn't used to be the case (women couldn't support men because society made it very difficult for them to even support themselves).

What's going on?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> You don’t agree that men keep their desire for women as they gain weight?


The idea is that, since men have a higher base sexual drive, men will be less choosy about how much the woman weighs (given their options).

Since women have a lower base sexual drive, that drive will be more affected by factors such as weight gain.

If what I state is true, then, yes, weight gain in men would affect a woman's desire to have sex with a man more that weight gain in woman (especially a woman who is essentially the man's only option) would not affect the man's desire to have sex with a woman.

But, of course, you don't believe that men and women's base sex drives are different, so this explanation won't work for you.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Deejo said:


> I've gotta confess, I'm just not as sharp as I used to be.
> 
> Can someone 'splain to me, are we in agreement that yes, absolutely and overwhelmingly that women lose interest in sex over the course of a LTR?


I *THINK* we're all in agreement that women *tend* to lose interest in sex over the course of a LTR.

Which I thought would be helpful as we can now consider this possibility when discussing marriages where everything seems good except for a mis-match of sexual desire (rather than focus exclusively on men being bad lovers, men not helping with housework, women having baited and switched, women marrying guys they aren't attracted to because they want the wallet, etc, etc.)
@Faithful_Wife seems to think that it's usually inevitable no matter what the guy does and no matter how good the sex _seemed_ to be in the beginning. That may be true. Unhelpful, but true. 

What would be helpful would be if there was something the couple could do to acknowledge this and overcome it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Deej....all the field reports coming back are telling me the 3 year mark is a real thing.
> 
> So while I can’t relate personally, apparently this is a real thing. Really.
> 
> ...


The bolded has been my understanding (and the understanding of almost everyone whose opinion I've heard on the topic) for the 50 years that I've been aware that sex existed.

The only experience I've had with the opposite view was "Married with Children" (perhaps that show misled a generation:surprise.

What different worlds we live in.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Deejo said:
> 
> 
> > I've gotta confess, I'm just not as sharp as I used to be.
> ...


Well I’m never going to say it’s inevitable.

I’m saying that’s what the stats are telling us, and it may be true we cannot do anything about this decline happening statistically.

But one generation is all it takes to change things (for better or worse).

I have all the faith that our next generations will improve on what we handed them and you seem to think they are all going to fare much worse.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well I’m never going to say it’s inevitable.
> 
> I’m saying that’s what the stats are telling us, and it may be true we cannot do anything about this decline happening statistically.
> 
> ...


Actually, I'm optimistic by nature.

Pointing out some possible rough patches doesn't mean I have no hope. 

I'd rather have my kids born in this time and in this place than any other.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Uh... I still desire my wife very much... shame we couldn't just put our differences behind us. I think I might be the exception, though...


I truly love ravishing Mrs. C.

If she could take it, I would be putting it to her 3x a day.

I like sex anyway and I do find others attractive of course but my wife is my sex goddess.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Deej....all the field reports coming back are telling me the 3 year mark is a real thing.
> ...


I think it’s fair to say both men and women can do their best to become self aware, be authentic, and communicate their desires, AND strive to remain sexy.

That’s why some people do figure it out.

Or they are both LD or middle D and match well that way. But usually the ones who have it figured out have communicated, are self aware and sexy (at their level).

When I was growing up, I was always listening for adults to talk about sex (never stopped doing this actually!) and I quizzed my friends for what they knew of their parents sex lives.

My bff’s mom was this wonderful hilarious feminist woman. She and her hubby looked exactly like a Far Side middle aged couple, though so it wasn’t always evident just looking at her.

They were both overweight and had mobility issues. They were both blue collar workers and had raised 5 kids on a dime.

The whole time my bff was alive, the parents had not had a room together. We all understood this to be because they both had bad backs, snore, and hog covers etc.

By the time I was 12 or so I assumed her parents were sexless old people. But bff revealed a much cuter reality.

She said that sometimes her dad would sneak in and get into bed with her at night, and she had heard them giggling and so forth several times. She sometimes tried to knock on the door and say “hey what’s so fun?” when she was little and they would shout a stern “go to bed.”

So she learned that their bedrooms were not sexless but they had 2 of them. I watched their behaviors after this and I noticed them giving glances and maybe little fanny pats or smooches I had never notice before.

I learned in an instant that some lovers are under cover, they don’t PDA. But if it’s there you may catch a glimpse. And I leaned never to think anyone wasn’t having sex. To me, if these two were having sex, ANY couple could be and in my mind, probably were.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Well I’m never going to say it’s inevitable.
> ...


I had thought you said a few days ago something like them literally dying off? And then we went back and forth a little and I still ended up with the feeling that you have a global concern for this (and I acknowledged it was simple concern for humanity). And then your other concern I thought was where would women find men (I can’t recall what the reason was you thought we couldn’t find them).

I’m not saying anything about optimism or pessimism, because I don’t know if maybe you think the potential bad future you described for them isn’t all that bad. 

If I’ve been wrong, I guess I’m confused but I’ll catch up.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> If she could take it, I would be putting it to her 3x a day.


Twice a week would perfect for me... but then, the more you have it... :laugh:

I remember fondly when we were having sex every day... everywhere... on the sofa, in the bath, in the bed, in the kitchen... sigh...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> Twice a week would perfect for me... but then, the more you have it... :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember fondly when we were having sex every day... everywhere... on the sofa, in the bath, in the bed, in the kitchen... sigh...




That’s indecisive....make up your minds and settle on a single place ffs! 
——
Statistics are all good and fun but they don’t tell us the WHY. And as soon as people start making up the WHYs, statistics actually become worse than useless statistically () because when people anchor their beliefs in statistical data only (but don’t use proper reasoning or evaluation of the variables - which is not their fault, there’s just a lot of information missing - all kinds of bad **** starts happening...).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wilson,

There’s a thing called a ‘push poll’. A push poll, is radically different than a genuine poll. There is nothing gender specific about such a thing, but imagine the results you might get in a small group of women having lunch if you ask:
1. How often do you guys have sex with your partners 
Vs.
2. My H and I stopped having sex years ago (in a tone of victory, not sadness), how long ago did you guys stop having sex?
Vs.
3. If you are sexually active, how often do you have sex with your partner

(2) Is a push poll, intended to manipulate the results. Full disclosure, I’m not a polling specialist and therefore don’t know if (1) or (3) are better designed queries with regard to getting the most accurate results. 

With that said, M2 (56 years old) does talk about sex with her co-workers. And her comments about that are quite interesting. In the post menopause crowd certain questions appear that she never heard when younger...
- Does sex sometimes hurt?
- Is it harder to orgasm, less intense when you do?

(1) push polls produce highly skewed results
(2) push polls employed in small group settings may produce even worse results, especially if the first one or two responses align with the clear ‘right’ answer.

As to motive, a woman who is still very physical with her H, might poll her colleagues. That said, she is likely looking for information as opposed to reassurance. A woman who has shut down sex, in the face of her husbands opposition is way more likely to be looking for reassurance than data and way more likely to conduct a push poll, even if she doesn’t call it that. 




wilson said:


> Do they have any sort of sexual activity at all? Do they masturbate, think about sexy guys, or anything like that? Or is the sexual aspect of their lives just gone?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> As to motive, a woman who is still very physical with her H, might poll her colleagues. That said, she is likely looking for information as opposed to reassurance. A woman who has shut down sex, in the face of her husbands opposition is way more likely to be looking for reassurance than data and way more likely to conduct a push poll, even if she doesn’t call it that.


That is certainly a contributing factor as well. If all of her friends are downplaying sex and reinforcing her position about how much sex is typical, then she is going to be much less inclined to do anything about it. Not too many friends will be frank and say they have good sex lives because they don't want to hurt her feelings. And certainly some friends do feel the same way about not wanting sex, so there would be some genuine commiserating. All that reinforcing makes it harder to fix things. I guess why lots of couples end up divorcing over this.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wilson,
Perhaps the push poll has a couple distinct but related drivers. Both relate to reassurance.
- Confirmation that this behavior is normal and
- Ammunition with husband - even if you ditch me - no one else will play with you

The flaw in this approach is that the goal is to feel better, not to perceive reality as accurately as possible.

That said, most of the lads who are shut down, suffer from the same ego protective drivers. For example, there is this polling tool that is utterly brilliant. A test group is shown a speech or debate. They sit watching while they manipulate a dial. The dial goes from -10 to +10, and they turn it in real time to reflect how they feel about what they are watching. 

So - for the chaps who are sexless, I suggest they try and figure out what part(s) of the sequence, from initiation to the immediate post sexual interaction, their partner dislikes. The most common response I get to that suggestion is: my partner comes every time we have sex. 

To which I reply, great, you have something positive to build on. Now if you can figure out what parts she doesn’t like, you will see progress. As a group, these folks are either not willing to ask that question, or not willing to share the results here.

At some early point I somehow came to equate sex with cooking. There is no right/wrong level of:
- spicy-ness
- salty-ness
- crunchy-ness
- etc...

So the goal is to extract high quality feedback and employ it. Last night, (broiled teriyaki salmon with steamed broccoli, green beans, and Carmelita’s red pepper and onions) flavor was nailed, crunchiness on the salmon was not. Next time the salmon will have a nice crunchy exterior, turning the experience for M2 from an 8 to a 9++.

We have the same kind of conversations about sex as cuisine. 





wilson said:


> That is certainly a contributing factor as well. If all of her friends are downplaying sex and reinforcing her position about how much sex is typical, then she is going to be much less inclined to do anything about it. Not too many friends will be frank and say they have good sex lives because they don't want to hurt her feelings. And certainly some friends do feel the same way about not wanting sex, so there would be some genuine commiserating. All that reinforcing makes it harder to fix things. I guess why lots of couples end up divorcing over this.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I had thought you said a few days ago something like them literally dying off? And then we went back and forth a little and I still ended up with the feeling that you have a global concern for this (and I acknowledged it was simple concern for humanity). And then your other concern I thought was where would women find men (I can’t recall what the reason was you thought we couldn’t find them).
> 
> I’m not saying anything about optimism or pessimism, because I don’t know if maybe you think the potential bad future you described for them isn’t all that bad.
> 
> If I’ve been wrong, I guess I’m confused but I’ll catch up.


Don't mean to confuse you.

Although I *DO* think that there are significant challenges ahead, that doesn't necessarily mean that I've given up hope and think everything is doomed.

As far as being concerned that women might have a hard time finding men; that would pertain to 1) women finding men who they want and 2) women finding commitment from men from whom they'd like commitment.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> So - for the chaps who are sexless, I suggest they try and figure out what part(s) of the sequence, from initiation to the immediate post sexual interaction, their partner dislikes.


But, it seems like, in reality men in sexless marriages have very few chances to "tune the process" and very rarely have a partner who's willing to provide accurate feedback.

While you no doubt have a valid point that many men may not want to hear that the process can be improved, that really doesn't seem to me to be of much use in sexless situations. Now, in a situation where both partners have committed to improving their sex life, this is absolutely vital. 

Men who don't want to know that the process needs improvement are most likely men who are having sex with their wives on a regular basis and either don't notice their wife's lack of response or don't care.



MEM2020 said:


> my partner comes every time we have sex.


This actually happens. Michelle Weiner-Davis talks about this in her TED talk. It is entirely possible for a woman to have orgasms, enjoy sex and not want to have it very often. Failure to acknowledge this possibility means that many couples are chasing red herrings. Sure, it's possible that the sex is bad for the woman and that's the reason she doesn't want sex with her husband, but it's hardly the only possible reason. 



MEM2020 said:


> To which I reply, great, you have something positive to build on. Now if you can figure out what parts she doesn’t like, you will see progress. As a group, these folks are either not willing to ask that question, or not willing to share the results here.


It seems to me that you are taking the position that sex in marriage is completely up to the man. If he tries hard and does the right thing(s) there will be satisfying sex for both. Along with that, there seems to be nothing the woman can possibly do on her own to improve the situation. She's powerless.

The solution to the problem may well be for the woman to realize how important sex is to her marriage, realize that she is no longer spontaneously responsive and commit to working with her partner to improve things (including vital information on what she (might) like.

I would argue that, without the woman's willing and active participation, there is very little hope of improvement.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I would argue that, without the woman's willing and active participation, there is very little hope of improvement.


Thumbs up on that. In the case of my wife, once she 'got it', and I got the fact that it was a control issue for her, she is perfectly capable of thinking herself into the right frame of mind. I just need to mostly leave her to it. I'd like to nudge her up a smidge.

Not saying she always had an O every time and/or wasn't going through the motions from time to time. But in general, sex was fine for both of us. It was just once a month if you are lucky for long periods...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> The idea is that, since men have a higher base sexual drive, men will be less choosy about how much the woman weighs (given their options).
> 
> Since women have a lower base sexual drive, that drive will be more affected by factors such as weight gain.
> 
> ...


I wanted to address this one but had to have a minute first.

Here is what I am saying....

Women have a higher need for sexual attraction and chemistry in order to be sexually fulfilled than men do.

Some also say women have a higher need for emotional needs to be met before they can be sexually fulfilled, but I kind of don't believe that one is as true as the attraction and chemistry.

What you call a "higher base sexual drive" that causes men to be less choosy, I don't agree with that part. Which is not the same as saying "men and women's base sex drives are the same" either.

Our base sex drives seem to be based on different things. And respond to some of the same things, but differently to other things. Calling one or the other of them "higher" doesn't make sense to me. Accepting what could be the equivalent of cheap pizza and claiming it is still good is something plenty of women can also do. Apparently according to the stats, she cannot do it with one man forever. Just as most men don't dine on Dominos forever and don't prefer to.

Women needing things to be more to her liking, more exciting, more newness, more hunkiness, in order to be fulfilled doesn't suggest to me that she has a lower base line. It just suggests that he has orgasms about things that would not fulfill her. Her higher needs does not mean her base line is lower. Especially if she can get those needs met, you'll see her base line is probably higher than his.

Maybe women are more the connoisseurs of sex and men are more the "eat anything" crowd. The desire to be a connoisseur, how your develop your palate, the time and expense you go to in order to study your field...these things don't suggest someone who has a lower base line for food than the "eat anything" crowd.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

My goal is not to blame anyone, I’m describing a dynamic. The average (individual views may differ) TAM dynamic at a male/female level is:
Male - sex is like pizza, it ranges from good to great. There is no bad sex.
Female - I’ve had plenty of bad sex, and an orgasm while a positive indicator does not mean the overall experience was good 

The guy says, sex is great but we rarely have it. And when pressed about her experience says she comes every time. And when pressed on why she avoids sex so determinedly, he has some sort of logical short circuit and avoids either me or his thread. 

That same female behavior that drives push polls with her friends - drives his behavior wrt what the experience is like for her. 

While rare, occasionally you get a “LD” who really shares on the site. They describe the numerous failed attempts they have made to provide feedback to their partners. Very painful to read. 






Buddy400 said:


> But, it seems like, in reality men in sexless marriages have very few chances to "tune the process" and very rarely have a partner who's willing to provide accurate feedback.
> 
> While you no doubt have a valid point that many men may not want to hear that the process can be improved, that really doesn't seem to me to be of much use in sexless situations. Now, in a situation where both partners have committed to improving their sex life, this is absolutely vital.
> 
> ...


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I wanted to address this one but had to have a minute first.
> 
> Here is what I am saying....
> 
> ...


Many would say that someone who'll eat just about any pizza has a greater base pizza drive than someone who only eats the finest pizza in the ideal circumstances.

It seems as if having a higher base drive for anything is often seen as best and if it is implied that some group of people are claimed to have a lower drive, that's seen as a bad thing.

I disagree, I don't see having a higher desire for bad pizza (or bad sex) as a virtue. I also don't see it as a vice. I'm just trying to talk about life as it really happens.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Many would say that someone who'll eat just about any pizza has a greater base pizza drive than someone who only eats the finest pizza in the ideal circumstances.
> 
> It seems as if having a higher base drive for anything is often seen as best and if it is implied that some group of people are claimed to have a lower drive, that's seen as a bad thing.
> 
> I disagree, I don't see having a higher desire for bad pizza (or bad sex) as a virtue. I also don't see it as a vice. I'm just trying to talk about life as it really happens.


I am also trying to talk about life as it really happens.

For you, apparently it happens that men have a higher base drive.

For me, I don't see any difference in base drive, I just see what we are driven by is different.

I guess I'll just call it a truce on this one, as apparently neither of us are going to change our position, and both of us are basing our experiences on our own realities.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Buddy,
> 
> My goal is not to blame anyone, I’m describing a dynamic. The average (individual views may differ) TAM dynamic at a male/female level is:
> Male - sex is like pizza, it ranges from good to great. There is no bad sex.
> ...


People seem to think I'm all about placing blaming, although I don't think I've ever used that term.

Your view appears to be that sexless marriages and 'LD' women are primarily caused by unsatisfactory sex, that the woman knows what she wants, has tried to communicate to her mate and, due to his fragile male ego, he is unwilling to listen. If he listened, the "problem" would be solved.

I disagree. 

Although I do agree that many men do not want to hear what their faults are and how they could do better, I don't think that has much to do with sexless marriages or LD women. I think it's a red herring and counter productive to believe that these problems could mostly be resolved by the man improving his bedroom performance (which is NOT to say that male bedroom performance doesn't matter). 

Also, here's a counter point to the "It's all about the woman's orgasm" point of view

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what...0GmwJDgGbNwGo7R2ITdFV-xegB2llSjTRBbhxWr79kV2Q


"3. Women go into sex expecting and wanting the focus to be on their pleasure.

Au contraire, women generally do not want the primary focus of the sexual encounter to be on their pleasure. Instead, I hear female clients share frequent fantasies of being with men who are overpowered by lust and desire. If a woman feels like her partner has the sole goal of giving her an orgasm, it is quite a lot of pressure and can make her feel self-conscious and awkward. This does not mean that women do not want to enjoy sex; but, they have to feel that their partner is enjoying it at least primarily because he finds her so attractive sexually that he feels urgent desire for her. Women do not respond well to a man who is trying to use various “techniques” in order to be a better lover. This makes us feel like a sudoku puzzle you are trying to solve."


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Buddy,
> 
> My goal is not to blame anyone, I’m describing a dynamic. The average (individual views may differ) TAM dynamic at a male/female level is:
> Male - sex is like pizza, it ranges from good to great. There is no bad sex.
> ...


On another thread, I mentioned that LD's get a lot of people angry around here, and so when they do try to discuss their side, the mob gets on their case.

And then some men came in and talked on and on about how LD's suck.

I didn't bother pointing out the irony. The men thought they were edumacating people about why LD's do in fact suck and therefore dog piling on them is ok. (sigh)


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Many would say that someone who'll eat just about any pizza has a greater base pizza drive than someone who only eats the finest pizza in the ideal circumstances.
> 
> It seems as if having a higher base drive for anything is often seen as best and if it is implied that some group of people are claimed to have a lower drive, that's seen as a bad thing.
> 
> I disagree, I don't see having a higher desire for bad pizza (or bad sex) as a virtue. I also don't see it as a vice. I'm just trying to talk about life as it really happens.


One more thing...can you see how when you put a person who is a connoisseur of pizza together with a "eat anything" pizza eater, the connoisseur, whether right or wrong, is going to feel the "eat anything" eater has very low standards and won't be able to meet them at that low level? And that they may possibly see that the "eat anything" eater does not care for or appreciate a fine pizza, and therefore the connoisseur has very little motivation to waste fine pizza on them (or possibly, it could prevent the connoisseur from eating any pizza at all because he or she will not enjoy the "anything" pizza?)


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> "3. Women go into sex expecting and wanting the focus to be on their pleasure.
> 
> Au contraire, women generally do not want the primary focus of the sexual encounter to be on their pleasure. Instead, I hear female clients share frequent fantasies of being with men who are overpowered by lust and desire. If a woman feels like her partner has the sole goal of giving her an orgasm, it is quite a lot of pressure and can make her feel self-conscious and awkward. This does not mean that women do not want to enjoy sex; but, they have to feel that their partner is enjoying it at least primarily because he finds her so attractive sexually that he feels urgent desire for her. Women do not respond well to a man who is trying to use various “techniques” in order to be a better lover. This makes us feel like a sudoku puzzle you are trying to solve."


This is extremely misunderstood.

Speaking as a self aware woman, when we say we want a man to take us with mad abandon and lust, there is a skill to this. Most men sincerely want to spend lots of time on minute details, because they love women's bodies and want to taste, touch, or examine them in any way possible. So we get all turned on and now we want to get bounced around a bit instead of lay there and be examined. 

Now....believe it or not, some men literally cannot behave with lust and abandon, so a lot of women are wanting this. Meanwhile, there is this impression that men don't care about our pleasure, which I have never agreed with. I think they definitely care. But what seems to happen is that if we don't get pleasure out of the same things he does, he either cannot execute what we are asking for, or he gets his feelings hurt because we didn't like that thing he hoped we would like.

Basically, if a woman has to ask a guy to take her with abandon and lust, chances are he won't be able to and that's why he hasn't thus far.

I can say that it is entirely possible that women cannot effectively communicate this to men. Especially not in the heat of the moment. But also, we don't have the same drives within us (most of us) to know what it feels like inside a man that makes him take us with abandon. We don't know what to tell you to spark inside of yourself to do that. We just know we like it. We also like being examined and touched a lot, but not without the abandon, too. 

So as far as getting women to communicate it correctly and getting men to do it (especially if they don't have it in them), we have a lot of ways this could go un-communicated.

But it is too simplistic to just say the problem is happening because women want the focus to not be on them. In fact I would say that being the object of unbridled lust IS having the focus on me.

And yet again all we are saying is that we are fulfilled differently.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I am also trying to talk about life as it really happens.
> 
> For you, apparently it happens that men have a higher base drive.
> 
> ...


I suspect that we're not as far apart as it seems and we're just missing the right words (or we're each attaching undue importance to certain terms).

But I agree that there isn't likely to be much progress from where we are at the moment.

So, Truce accepted.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> One more thing...can you see how when you put a person who is a connoisseur of pizza together with a "eat anything" pizza eater, the connoisseur, whether right or wrong, is going to feel the "eat anything" eater has very low standards and won't be able to meet them at that low level? And that they may possibly see that the "eat anything" eater does not care for or appreciate a fine pizza, and therefore the connoisseur has very little motivation to waste fine pizza on them (or possibly, it could prevent the connoisseur from eating any pizza at all because he or she will not enjoy the "anything" pizza?)


Sure. I would personally classify the "eat anything pizza eater" as "worse" (just my personal view, I have no desire to judge others).

If I was a pizza connoisseur, I'd push back against any hint that I had a lower "pizza drive" than someone who would eat anything.

However, in the end, after establishing that I actually DO like pizza; I just have higher standards, I think I'd agree with the proposition that the Domino's fan has a higher *base* pizza drive than me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Sure. I would personally classify the "eat anything pizza eater" as "worse" (just my personal view, I have no desire to judge others).
> 
> If I was a pizza connoisseur, I'd push back against any hint that I had a lower "pizza drive" than someone who would eat anything.
> 
> However, in the end, after establishing that I actually DO like pizza; I just have higher standards, I think I'd agree with the proposition that the Domino's fan has a higher *base* pizza drive than me.


Yes, of course. I know you just truly believe that men's base drive is higher than women's. I get it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> But it is too simplistic to just say the problem is happening because women want the focus to not be on them. In fact I would say that being the object of unbridled lust IS having the focus on me.


Of course it's too simplistic. And it's certainly not true for every women.

But I think it's something that more men should be aware of.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, of course. I know you just truly believe that men's base drive is higher than women's. I get it.


Drat, I was trying to demonstrate that I understood where you were coming from. Fail


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Of course it's too simplistic. And it's certainly not true for every women.
> 
> But I think it's something that more men should be aware of.


Me too! And we have been trying to tell them for a loooooong time. Articles and books by women trying to express this to men started coming out in the late 90's.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I can say that it is entirely possible that women cannot effectively communicate this to men. Especially not in the heat of the moment. But also, we don't have the same drives within us (most of us) to know what it feels like inside a man that makes him take us with abandon. We don't know what to tell you to spark inside of yourself to do that. We just know we like it. We also like being examined and touched a lot, but not without the abandon, too.
> 
> So as far as getting women to communicate it correctly and getting men to do it (especially if they don't have it in them), we have a lot of ways this could go un-communicated.
> 
> ...


Meh. the whole thing is an oxymoron. Unbridled lust is pretty damn close to all you want me for is sex. What was that you were saying about the wheels on the bus?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Unbridled lust is pretty damn close to all you want me for is sex.


Me to my new boyfriend: Show me unbridled lust or I'll show you the door.

New boyfriend: Please fill out this consent form and initial here, here, here and sign here.

Me: My pleasure, hand me the pen.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

LOL!


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > One more thing...can you see how when you put a person who is a connoisseur of pizza together with a "eat anything" pizza eater, the connoisseur, whether right or wrong, is going to feel the "eat anything" eater has very low standards and won't be able to meet them at that low level? And that they may possibly see that the "eat anything" eater does not care for or appreciate a fine pizza, and therefore the connoisseur has very little motivation to waste fine pizza on them (or possibly, it could prevent the connoisseur from eating any pizza at all because he or she will not enjoy the "anything" pizza?)
> ...


I like all kinds of pizza...fat ones, skinny ones, saucy ones, spicy ones and even plain cheesy ones. One thing I will not tolerarate on my pizza is seafood! Bleh!

Wait, we are talking about pizza right?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I also love pizza and can eat a whole one by myself. But I’ve learned that crap food of any kind makes me feel sick after I eat it, so I no longer bother with crap pizza. 

Also my palate has developed to the point that even a bite of Dominos makes me wish I hadn’t bothered. 

I need calories to survive but am in a lucky enough position to be able to choose only healthy, delicious meals and never have to lower my food standards.

I also just love to eat so I spend time searching for better and better pizza and other foods. I always return to my favorites and never return to anything that made me sick.

Here’s the best pizza in Portland. People make a line out the door before it even opens. 

http://www.apizzascholls.com/

People get a little pushy in line. Sometimes waiting for good food makes you a little restless and hungrier.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, of course. I know you just truly believe that men's base drive is higher than women's. I get it.
> ...


I dated a guy who was a wine connoisseur. And he was so incredibly stuck up about it all. I don’t even like wine so right away he acted like I was sort of unclassy. He took me to a wine tasting thing at this house where all these upper class people were wearing weird medallions around their necks. I was sort of afraid that it was going to turn into some ritualistic orgy or something. I was totally out of my element. There were tables and seat brought in for the event, and catering and other servers.

They sat around and all evaluated many different wines and wrote notes on paper about their thoughts on each. That was sort of fascinating, but I couldn’t taste what they were talking about and tried a sip of at least 15 red wines and didn’t like any of them. I know my date was wishing I had fit in but I didn’t. The other people at the party treated me well though. I was not into this scene and they understood that.

By the end of the evening, every single one of them was DRUNK. Not just drunk. 

It did not turn into an orgy, but imagine 85 people aged 45 to 75 (my date and I were anomalies being under 40) in a very nice huge home, all are smashed and hooting and hollering, old stories are being shouted from the upper stories and off the back deck, some are wandering out onto the front lawn hanging on each other and laughing hysterically. Wine is spilled everywhere. Servers are amused but obviously knew to expect this and just follow around behind every one and clean up their messes.

This all started with all of these people just so lovely and charming in their seats, sipping wine. And ended with something like an out of control class reunion. 

They did this 4 times a year.

Anyway...my date definitely did not feel cheap gross wine was ok to drink. He would rather go without any. 

He did however point out to me that there are what he considered good enough to drink wines at 7-11.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Speaking as a self aware woman, when we say we want a man to take us with mad abandon and lust, there is a skill to this. Most men sincerely want to spend lots of time on minute details, because they love women's bodies and want to taste, touch, or examine them in any way possible. So we get all turned on and now we want to get bounced around a bit instead of lay there and be examined.
> 
> ... We don't know what to tell you to spark inside of yourself to do that. We just know we like it. We also like being examined and touched a lot, but not without the abandon, too.


I think this is where dancing comes in.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> I also love pizza and can eat a whole one by myself. But I’ve learned that crap food of any kind makes me feel sick after I eat it, so I no longer bother with crap pizza.
> 
> Also my palate has developed to the point that even a bite of Dominos makes me wish I hadn’t bothered.
> 
> ...


Hope the line isn't as bad as that crazy donut place you have downtown!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Hope the line isn't as bad as that crazy donut place you have downtown!


The difference is, the pizza is actually worth the wait.

The donuts....they're just donuts, people! What the hell are you doing waiting in line for donuts?!?!???? 

People have lately started displaying bumper stickers that say "Make it Normal Again!" :laugh:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> The difference is, the pizza is actually worth the wait.
> 
> The donuts....they're just donuts, people! What the hell are you doing waiting in line for donuts?!?!????
> 
> People have lately started displaying bumper stickers that say "Make it Normal Again!" :laugh:


Yeah, we were gonna' stop there just because everyone said that's one of the must dos when you're in Portland. Then we saw the line and said no bloody way. As you say... donuts... why?

As for making it normal again, this _is _Portlandia we're talking about. :wink2:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yeah, we were gonna' stop there just because everyone said that's one of the must dos when you're in Portland. Then we saw the line and said no bloody way. As you say... donuts... why?
> 
> As for making it normal again, this _is _Portlandia we're talking about. :wink2:


We have a few who are ready to trade "weird" for "less weird, more normal", but I suspect they are actually Californians. (blast them!)

Do NOT get the donuts. I think you can get the stupid things at the airport anyway. It is a stupid funky Portland hippie thing and there's no reason for it.

I do recommend you stroll up and down Hawthorne and Division street a little bit, check out some of the shops, and an actual GREAT donut shop that doesn't have any lines is there....

Blue Star Donuts

A stroll around those two streets will give you a great look at "Portland people". 

Keep in mind, if you are also going to any place around here, like suburbia (Gresham, Beaverton, etc), those people are NOT Portland people (right @Cletus?). Just didn't want you to be confused. :grin2:


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I do recommend you stroll up and down Hawthorne and Division street a little bit, check out some of the shops, and an actual GREAT donut shop that doesn't have any lines is there....
> 
> Blue Star Donuts


Donut snob. You'll find they go down better with a $40 Pinot Noir. 

I worked with a relative of the owner of Blue Star. Yeah, good donuts if your pockets are deep. But then, owning a top-end Tesla doesn't come cheap. 



> A stroll around those two streets will give you a great look at "Portland people".


I would add The Pearl District on the West side to round out the experience.



> Keep in mind, if you are also going to any place around here, like suburbia (Gresham, Beaverton, etc), those people are NOT Portland people (right @Cletus?). Just didn't want you to be confused. :grin2:


Lived in the inner East Side growing up, downtown during college, NE, Milwaukee, and Hillsboro as a newly married man and now way-the-hell-and-gone rural later in life. It's not until you get to the far reaches of the metro area that people start looking too much less Portland. You can look up our demographics in a nice map here.

I now live in a hidden liberal underground enclave in one of those red zones.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Lived in the inner East Side growing up, downtown during college, NE, Milwaukee, and Hillsboro as a newly married man and now way-the-hell-and-gone rural later in life. *It's not until you get to the far reaches of the metro area that people start looking too much less Portland*. You can look up our demographics in a nice map here.
> 
> I now live in a hidden liberal underground enclave in one of those red zones.


I would have to disagree with the bolded. True that plenty of our suburbians do look a bit Portland-ish. But there is actually quite a difference looking at it from my perspective. 

I encourage anyone to visit us out here! But only come in August.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> We have a few who are ready to trade "weird" for "less weird, more normal", but I suspect they are actually Californians. (blast them!)
> 
> Do NOT get the donuts. I think you can get the stupid things at the airport anyway. It is a stupid funky Portland hippie thing and there's no reason for it.
> 
> ...


Yes, downtown was more interesting than the burbs
I've got plenty oh homogenized burns right here in Colorado.

I'll definitely look into your suggestions on my next trip.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,
Thing is, sex is a celebration of being together. Deep down, that’s what it is. If 
(1) I really am glad we are together and 
(2) it is a decent to good experience than 
I’m not going to burn down the marriage over frequency. 




Buddy400 said:


> But, it seems like, in reality men in sexless marriages have very few chances to "tune the process" and very rarely have a partner who's willing to provide accurate feedback.
> 
> While you no doubt have a valid point that many men may not want to hear that the process can be improved, that really doesn't seem to me to be of much use in sexless situations. Now, in a situation where both partners have committed to improving their sex life, this is absolutely vital.
> 
> ...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OK, so W and I were away the past 4 days or so and have continued with our conversations regarding marriage, desire, etc... Some things of interest to note (and maybe to an extent a good look into what female desire looks like, at least in terms of my W)

I brought up the idea that in part women lose interest in LTRs because they lose physical attraction to their H (idea being H lets himself go). Now, on the bright side my W can't really relate to that since as of yet I have not let myself go (better keep it that way). From talking about it, I think there are several things (which I believe several folks here have stated as well).

- When men gain weight, it typically goes to the gut and man boobs. None of this is particularly attractive. When a woman gains weight, it may at the start go to the T & A, which are already desirable areas. So right off the bat, women do seem to have an advantage in this

- Men have a higher base drive which means they may be more willing to overlook weight gain (up to a certain point, and probably in part b/c of where the weight may distribute itself)

That being said, neither should underestimate the impact weight gain could have on your partner's desire for you (regardless of gender). Also, I think people will generally be more discriminatory about weight when looking for a relationship (i.e. the reason why both men and women are told to hit the gym when re entering the dating scene). Thinking that a "dad bod" or "curvy" (where curvy seems to now cover obese) is going to open up scores of opportunities is just silly.

Also, on the desire side, once again my W and I were talking about the idea of spontaneous vs responsive drive. I think to some extent she views it where it is either spontaneous drive or no drive at all. The idea being, if your naughty parts aren't tingling, then you just don't have drive/desire, so there is nothing to act on. I told her that there are plenty of times I initiate and it has nothing to do with being a hornball, and she actually said she was glad to hear that (in her mind, there must be something wrong with her if all these times I am just full of hormones where she isn't). With this mindset, it might actually make it easier to convince yourself that you are low/no drive, when in reality you are not and you just respond differently now. A few nights ago she initiated, and after she was saying how she was almost shocked at how easy it was to just go along with things. She didn't need to have a strong urge/desire to start things. Simply put, she just wanted to be close to me, and then once things got start all the urges/desires came about (where in the past she would have just brushed it off and gone to sleep).

Funny enough, we have had sex 6 times in the last 5 days. I figured last night since I got home late we would probably take a break. We both laid there in bed for a while and could tell it was on each others mind, so I started. She said afterwards that it would almost seem weird not to have sex before going to bed, so she would have started if I hadn't. I will ride this wave as long as possible 

The big thing to point out in all of this, overall my W and I have always had a great relationship. If she wasn't willing or open to communicating, or put in the effort (by both of us), none of this would work. Taking the approach that it was all on me to fix/address, nothing would have gotten better.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EllisRedding said:


> OK, so W and I were away the past 4 days or so and have continued with our conversations regarding marriage, desire, etc... Some things of interest to note (and maybe to an extent a good look into what female desire looks like, at least in terms of my W)
> 
> I brought up the idea that in part women lose interest in LTRs because they lose physical attraction to their H (idea being H lets himself go). Now, on the bright side my W can't really relate to that since as of yet I have not let myself go (better keep it that way). From talking about it, I think there are several things (which I believe several folks here have stated as well).
> 
> ...


Here's to all the people who avoid weird lives!!!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> The big thing to point out in all of this, overall my W and I have always had a great relationship..


This is the key. Assuming that the relationship is otherwise good......



EllisRedding said:


> Also, on the desire side, once again my W and I were talking about the idea of spontaneous vs responsive drive. I think to some extent she views it where it is either spontaneous drive or no drive at all. *The idea being, if your naughty parts aren't tingling, then you just don't have drive/desire, so there is nothing to act on*. I told her that there are plenty of times I initiate and it has nothing to do with being a hornball, and she actually said she was glad to hear that (in her mind, there must be something wrong with her if all these times I am just full of hormones where she isn't). With this mindset, it might actually make it easier to convince yourself that you are low/no drive, when in reality you are not and you just respond differently now. A few nights ago she initiated, and after *she was saying how she was almost shocked at how easy it was to just go along with things. She didn't need to have a strong urge/desire to start things. Simply put, she just wanted to be close to me, and then once things got start all the urges/desires came about* (where in the past she would have just brushed it off and gone to sleep).


The bolded is why I go on and on about Responsive Desire, especially regarding women in LTRs. 

This needs to be common knowledge.

Two things women (and their husbands) need to know:

1) Women tend to lose spontaneous desire in an LTR, but that doesn't mean that they don't like sex, often their desire just changes to responsive.

2) Most men emotionally connect with their wives via sex.

It is almost always necessary for the man in this situation to very directly state that he is not willing to stay forever in a sexless marriage (or something similar) before his wife is capable of believing it. I have no idea why this seems so hard for women to grasp, but it is. 

Curiously, the above is known by a significant number of women, Evangelical Christians (of which I am not one), and they seem to have happier marriages. To the rest of the culture, the notion that wives should be concerned about their husband's happiness is pretty much dismissed out of hand. 

And this isn't all just to benefit men. I'd guess that Mrs Redding is probably more on cloud 9 than Ellis. 

It might not have occurred to my wife (or anyone else) that giving me a lot more blowjobs would make her happier either, but that's exactly what happened.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mrs. Conan and I just enjoyed some excellent "pizza".:wink2:


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. Conan and I just enjoyed some excellent "pizza".:wink2:


I just had some pizza, but it was far from excellent. I don't understand how one Papa Johns in town can have consistently great pizza, while the other has consistently bad pizza.

You _were _talking about Papa Johns right?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> It is almost always necessary for the man in this situation to very directly state that he is not willing to stay forever in a sexless marriage (or something similar) before his wife is capable of believing it. I have no idea why this seems so hard for women to grasp, but it is.


I still think there is this idea by some (many?) women that sex for men is nothing more than stuffing a hole. However, turn it around with the view that men need it to feel emotionally connected to their W, and you can see why it would be more problematic for the W. The first POV you can just blow him off (no pun intended lol), no guilt whatsoever. 



Buddy400 said:


> Curiously, the above is known by a significant number of women, Evangelical Christians (of which I am not one), and they seem to have happier marriages. To the rest of the culture, the notion that wives should be concerned about their husband's happiness is pretty much dismissed out of hand.


One of the marriage books my W is reading now is by Christian authors, so looking at things from more of a Christian / religious viewpoint (we are both Catholic but by no means religious). The author believes one of the issues with marriage now is that so many people are all about themselves (i.e. what have you done for me lately) which goes directly against what marriage should be. The authors believe that part of marriage is making sacrifices for your SO, making them happy. Even here on TAM, you do see this mentality pushed where you should just focus on yourself, no one else should be responsible for your happiness except yourself. I do get to some extent where this POV comes from, but at the same time why shouldn't I rely on my W to help bring me happiness??? 

Now granted, this is a small sample size from what I have seen on places like FB, but it does seem like even mentioning making your husband happy is heresy. It amazes me on some of the posts on FB what I read. It is like there is this group of angry man hating women that just wait, as soon as a woman posts about her happy marriage and great husband they pounce!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

One reason why people have a low opinion of therapy and therapists. 

While it IS true that I am responsible for being happy with ME. I have a completely separate bucket for how happy I am with my partner. The idea that the therapists put forth is that those two distinct buckets are one big bucket. 

Ellis isn’t afraid to upset his wife. He does not want to upset her, but he is willing to. Nick the chemist is a perfect example of the opposite. His wife stopped kissing him romantically a long, long time ago and he never asked why. 




EllisRedding said:


> I still think there is this idea by some (many?) women that sex for men is nothing more than stuffing a hole. However, turn it around with the view that men need it to feel emotionally connected to their W, and you can see why it would be more problematic for the W. The first POV you can just blow him off (no pun intended lol), no guilt whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I am going to toss this comment into this discussion (probably could start a thread on it, but it is unrelated to me).

A friend was talking with me about libido. She claims it used to be very strong but it went away around the same time she developed an eating disorder and never really came back. 

When you stop and think about it, we all know women out there try all these wonky diets many of which may not be safe. Odds are it does have a significant impact on libido, but we all turn a blind eye in favor of skinny bodies that are deemed sexy by society.

Meanwhile you never really see men starving themselves the way women do...










Now while this may not be exactly relevant to libido in a LTR, especially if it comes back with a new partner. I would argue that the baseline of desire is eroded by bad diets and that the excitement of a new relationship temporarily overcomes that underlying problem. I could be wrong. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Now while this may not be exactly relevant to libido in a LTR, especially if it comes back with a new partner. I would argue that the baseline of desire is eroded by bad diets and that the excitement of a new relationship temporarily overcomes that underlying problem. I could be wrong.
> 
> Regards,
> Badsanta


Crash diets are known to cause some serious damage to your hormones. I have seen female competitors talk about how their diets leading up to their shows screwed them up, they stopped having their period, lost any desire, etc... Now these are probably more extreme cases, but it can definitely have an impact. However, at least from what I have seen, these more dramatic diets I don't usually see women in LTRs doing (just from my observation).


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

My wife gained 60+ pounds and then lost it and kept it off. Had zero impact on her libido (non-existent either way). I can see how anorexia, bulemia etc could have a major impact on hormones, brain chemicals, mood, etc. Self-loathing (the underlying cause of many eating disorders) is not conducive to a high sex drive. Ask me how I know!


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I would tend to think changes in diet would be a reaction to whatever was causing the lack of libido. If someone is depressed, they may stress eat. If someone is unhappy with how they look, they may diet. I would think those underlying feelings that cause someone to be unhappy or unsatisfied would be tied to the loss of libido.

As for men, I think there is some link between diet and testosterone. I could see a man's libido going down because he's eating certain things that either suppress or don't encourage testosterone production.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Looking at desire, my W and I were talking. Her SIL has been having a hard time (marriage, raising two young children, work/life balance, etc...). My W mentioned she was on a high dosage of zoloft (which is pretty much a guarantee to kill any drive/desire as well as introduce sexual dysfunction). I brought up the fact that my W's brother had some drive issues a while back (Her SIL had mentioned that there seemed to be some frustration with him over his lack of interest in sex, etc...). So it got me thinking, the SIL likely has little if any drive. Her H potentially has very little drive at all. Could their lack of drives, and lack of interest in being physically connected to each other, be causing more harm than good in their marriage? I brought this up to my W and she thought it was a real possibility. She looked at how things have changed for us, how much better we are now as a couple and how much better we handle things as parents. It may be easy to just brush off sex (just nothing more than physical) without really understanding how having a healthy desire for your SO can have such a big impact on your relationship.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Could their lack of drives, and lack of interest in being physically connected to each other, be causing more harm than good in their marriage?


Absolutely. In my experience, the connection goes and you start detaching. Not just men, but women too. It's a clear sign of a big problem in the marriage. I've been lucky: we've had that for over 10 years in our relationship and, in hindsight, I should be grateful that I have experienced it. That said, I can't stop thinking about the good times. Marriages need to be worked at constantly... physical connection is the glue, IMO.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

On a long drive today, listening to Carole King and this came up and reminded me of this thread.


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## hamida.muhd (Jun 12, 2019)

I don't know if I'm at the right place for my inquiry (I'm new to this; just signed up).
Anyway, my inquiry is about:

"Difficulty in being aroused (by touching)"

I'm married with the kids and I signed up to this forum to understand better why i don't/can't "feel" any arousal during foreplay when my hubby touches me (breasts, nipples, etc.) despite his efforts and my guidance. The only arousal that I do ever feel is when he stimulates my clitoral area.

I'd like to understand what is the cause of my predicament, and what ways I can overcome it. Thanks.

Sent from my SM-J400F using Tapatalk


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Buddy400 said:


> "The research that Martin describes is validating of many of my own and my friend’s experiences, some paradoxical: high desire, loss of libido in committed relationships, loss of libido after having children, wanting sexual freedom despite being in happy marriages, and experiencing firsthand the intimate connection between autonomy and desire. "
> 
> So it looks like, if this is true, it's "Yay! female sexual equality".
> 
> ...


I may be late to this party and admittedly have not read the all the pages but here goes:

Read Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel. Watch her Ted talks and videos. 
She is fascinated with the concept that as domesticity rises, desire falls in an inverse relationship.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> ** sigh **
> 
> I wish people would spend more time and effort on communicating/understanding their particular SO on this subject rather than coming up with one-size-fits-all theories about women (or men).


All women get sick of their husbands


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

hamida.muhd said:


> I don't know if I'm at the right place for my inquiry (I'm new to this; just signed up).
> Anyway, my inquiry is about:
> 
> "Difficulty in being aroused (by touching)"
> ...


This is a big thread and a post like this could get lost. Perhaps a moderator could move it for you to a unique thread so that people can better respond and help. 
@farsidejunky @lifeistooshort


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Why would a man want to in an a LTR if a woman’s drive decreases the longer she’s in a relationship?

Because a lot of women will still have sex even when not in the mood. A lot of wives seldom turn their husbands down for sex.

Yes, if a typical LTR started out 3x per week and turned into 1x per month, most men wouldn’t be interested.


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## Somearebiased (Aug 21, 2019)

Some women are hypergamous even in marriage....


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