# House chores and sex - guide for men:)



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I have decided to start this thread because it does seem that some men expect very straight relationship here: when they do the dishes then they will have sex. And of course, then they are disappointed if not, and call it all b/s.

So ladies, let's try to explain better how it works. I start - it is about fairness to each other. If there are two working adults in the relationship, they both should be sharing their household responsibilities. If you are slowly moving your part into your wife, you are showing her that you are completely fine in abusing her trust in your fairness, in abousing her sense of responsibility for the house, as long as you can get away with it. You want things to be taken care of, without being bothered. You want your wife to be what your mother was to you: make sure things are done around the house, remind you of your responsiblities, nagging you to to your share. Convinience killed your sense fo fairness to your wife. do you think she likes to nag, ask, beg for you to do something? She hates herself for becoming nagging wife, and she start resenting you for making her to do it. And remember - if you want mommy at home to take care of you - that relationship does not include sex. The resentment keeps building up. The HD wife slowly becomes LD, because her "we are equals" husband turn into "go do it" husband.

Imagine, you are single, and decided to rent a house with your best buddy. The best scenario ever, yes? But soon you realize that your buddy leaves dirty dishes in sink, forgets to stop for groceries when it's his turn, leaves dirty clothes overflowing in the hamper. At the beginning you overlook this, do it for him, but after a while you realize your buddy is using you to do the dirty job for him. You ask, you nag, and you hate it. Now you do not even feel like going for a beer whit him, it's not fun anymore. When the lease is up, you are not renewing. Your friendship took huge dent.

Clarification: we are talking here about marriage of two adults, working full time


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## 20yrsofmarriage (Sep 29, 2014)

I consider myself a traditional wife. For the longest time I believed that I should have a meal cooked when he came home from work, clean house, bills paid, shopping, taking kids to dr.s apts etc. I did it, I may not have always like it but I felt it was ALL my job since he brought home the bacon. I fugured it would be so evil of me to expect him to come home and life a finger. There were other times I'd roll my eyes at other SAHM's complaining bc they had to do everything. 

Well that mindset all changed when I went back to work and. Worked 40-50 hrs a week. I still had to do it all, and you know what....it's not as tiring as he had me believing it was. I would get off work, go to the store, come home and cook and clean. He only cleans if I ask, and never cooks. I even cut the grass when I was 9mo pg. Our kids are older so they do most of the chores, so that's been a big help for me.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I've come yo an understanding of how the lack of housework causes sexual withholding. The part I and I suspect many men and women have trouble with is fixing the problem once the resentment has built. I think that a fair guide would also explain to men how over participating in household duties causes loss of respect and sexual withholding. Then to wrap up the guide some guidelines as to how sexual withholding always damages a relationship.

MN


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Mr. Nail - create new thread on devasting consequences of sexual withholding. This is about dirty jobs!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> So ladies, let's try to explain better how it works. I start - it is about fairness to each other.


I think it's about communicating effectively and openly, meeting one anothers needs, both being engaged in the relationship, taking care of responsibilities, along with both owning their sh!t. If one doesn't want to be the nag - then don't be. Alter the behavior. If one wants to be trust worthy, then back it up with actions that demonstrate being reliable. Then trust one another. 

Wanda, I hesitated with this thread as I felt the title alone was condescending, despite your intention. I'm not a fan of the generalization of the husband raised with his mom doing everything for him and the generalization of the nagging wife. And yet, I'm aware this dynamic exists but it takes both people to change things. 

I find it alluring that my husband sees to house-hold responsibilities. He's engaged, caring and wants a loving home for us. I feel considered and looked-out for. That does meet a need for me and it increases feelings of intimacy and closeness. Back in the early days, I used to write lists of chores I wanted him to do - I came home one day and he told me not to write a list again as he was an adult and knew what needed to be done. Fair call. I'm not even sure why I started doing that in the first place. Sometimes old habits arise and he calls me out and then, seeing how I'm being and recognizing it for what it is, I stop. But he's the type to get sh!t done. He's a bit of a 'there are reasons and there are results' kind of guy. Despite not being black and white in his thinking, he will look stronger to the result.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I wouldn't tie chores to sex, but I do think that it is important that both people feel like chores are divided fairly. 

This can be tricky: Some chores are pure work: cleaning, laundry, taxes, etc.

Others are a mix: cooking, automobile repair, computer maintenance. These are things that can be drudgery, but for some people are also sort of fun - in the right circumstances .

If it feels like chores aren't being split fairly, I think its important to TALK - an even split may look very different to different people.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Oops, for some reason I thought it was about Fairness or sex. Now I see it's about Dirty Jobs. Specifically House chores and Sex. 

I'd like to recant my prior statement / suggestion and recommend that all you guys out there do some dirty jobs. Especially if one of them can be Sex. The other dirty jobs you should be signing up for are, Taking out the stinking trash, and cleaning the trash can. Clearing clogged toilets and cleaning toilets. Be sure to leave the seat up to dry properly. Cleaning hair nests out of the shower drain. Killing and disposing of vermin (including spiders). Anything that involves pet waste. Next on your list chose something that your wife really hates. 

At about this point a fairness evaluation should be done and further division agreed on. 

Lest you think I am misogynist, my plans for this evening include cooking a baked dinner and laundry (the one my wife hates most).

MN


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Hold on Richard,
You mean I can't count a chore if I enjoy doing it? 

Here I was volunteering to take care of all the dirty sex.

MN


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Oops, for some reason I thought it was about Fairness or sex. Now I see it's about Dirty Jobs. Specifically House chores and Sex.
> 
> MN


It is about connection, how not doing your share in the house creates resentment from your spouse, which leads to to the spouse less engaged emotionally and physically. This is related, but not the same as sex withholding. 

So far the only guys who anwered are those who get it. The others keep quiet, and probably say "bs"...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

When both spouses work, household chores are the responsibility of both spouses. It's not her housework and he helps her. He has as much responsibility to do the household chores and take care of the children as she does.

So yes, when a guy just pushes off most or all of the household chores onto his working wife, she will most likely lose interest in him sexually over time. An irresponsible man is not sexy at all.

The term "withhold sex" implies that the withhold is only not having sex to get the other to do something. Loss of sex desire for a spouse because of their irresponsible and mean behavior is not withholding sex to manipulate. It's called losing love for your spouse, a good reason to not want to have sex with them.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I agree with you 100%. l also think that many people confuse "withholding" sex with loss of desire for the sex with the spouse.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I refuse to quietly say BS. This is to important and tricky of an issue to leave it to chance.

Now that we are getting to a solid definition of what it is we are talking about, we can get serious about discussing it. We are talking about damage done to a marriage over unfair distribution of duties. 

Right off we have Richards very valid point about counting chores that you get some enjoyment from. If she thinks he is not being fair because he likes his chores then she will not be happy. But would she be happy if she traded chores? or would she hate his chores as much as she hates hers but is only happy when he is miserable. You see the difficulty?

OK this is where my suggestion to take on her most hated chore comes in. My wife hates folding laundry. I hate washing dishes. Just the hands in the sink part. Everything else I'm ok. So we swapped those two. I don't wash, she doesn't fold. fair division. 

I'm holding off on boundaries for respect for a while. Also repairing an offended relationship. For now how to transition into a fair relationship.

MN


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

OP definitely hit target on.Very thing that happened in my marriage. When dating he was always willing to help cook meals, we lived in separate houses and he cleaned his house, did his own laundry, sent out his own Christmas cards, mowed his own grass. I moved in and I was willing to help but it seemed once he saw my willingness to help he did less and less with time. One of the things I did talk to husband about even before we married is that we each needed to take on equal responsibility as long as we each were working and he agreed but he did not keep up his end. Before long his excuse for not mowing the yard or helping out with the house was that I had higher expectations and he never say the need for these things to be done as soon as I did. Funny how he kept his house cleaned and his lawn mowed when we were dating. It was not long and we were fighting over the chores. I was exhausted. We married with 4 children (step family), his and mine and then had one of our own. I was working and trying to raise 5 kids seemingly by myself. He was caught up in porn and an emotional affair while I was changing diapers, running kids to doc appointments, and still mowing the grass, doing laundry and working part time. I would have to practically beg him for him to get involved with the kids. Most the time I heard, "You take care of it, you know what's going on." He was not available to me, not available to the kids. Wanted to be treated like he saw his dad treated by his mom who didn't work. Wanted that mommy (now me) to wait on him hand and foot and praise him for everything he did and didn't do.

Let me tell you, it causes ALOT of HARD feelings and it is too much to deal with. Slowly we lose those feelings for the spouse who wants to be treated like royalty while we, the worker bee, seems to be the only person doing anything. When we lose those feelings towards our partner then intimacy is no longer pleasurable and in many cases, not even desired.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Each person cares about different things in marriage.
For example, many men really don't care about decor, neatness, cleanliness of the "nest". Many men do care about this. Many don't. Many women don't care about sex. Many do. I'm not stereotyping. The point is, the "work" in marriage is doing the things you don't care about simply because the other person does care about them. In this scenario the man does not care about the house as much as the wife does, and the woman does not care about sex as much as the husband does. To be successful in marriage each person must recognize that they have to work hard to meet the other person's needs, but they also need to work hard to advocate for their own needs. And ideally you understand your partner well enough to know that they are imperfect (not unloving) and that meeting needs and advocating for needs is an ongoing part of marriage.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

My respect goes way down if I feel he isn't pulling his weight (even more so when he thinks he is because he'll do 1 or 2 things ) It does cause resentment, feelings that he's less of a man, weaker than I am (cause if I can come home and do it all, so can he) being taken advantage of, etc. 

I do read a lot here that more chores doesn't work to raise your sexual attractiveness but holy crap, if I came home to a clean kitchen and a man making a dinner for me I would be so turned on... so relaxed... it'd be a miracle if that dinner made it to the plate before I jumped him. :smthumbup:


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Hicks said:


> Each person cares about different things in marriage.
> In this scenario the man does not care about the house as much as the wife does, and the woman does not care about sex as much as the husband does. .


I respectfully disagree Hicks. What does it mean not to care about the house? We are not talking about decorating the house, we are talkinga about running the family - food, cleaning, washing, etc. This is not something you choose to care about, this is something that MUST be done.

You guys saying that sex is a need, not want. House chores are not a want, that for sure.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> My respect goes way down if I feel he isn't pulling his weight (even more so when he thinks he is because he'll do 1 or 2 things ) It does cause resentment, feelings that he's less of a man, weaker than I am (cause if I can come home and do it all, so can he) being taken advantage of, etc.
> 
> I do read a lot here that more chores doesn't work to raise your sexual attractiveness but holy crap, if I came home to a clean kitchen and a man making a dinner for me I would be so turned on... so relaxed... it'd be a miracle if that dinner made it to the plate before I jumped him. :smthumbup:


It was a big turn on for me too. We were partners in our relationship, two equal adults. Then I stayed home for few years raising children, and things slipped. Now I do work full time, but from home, so somehow this creates expectation that everything at home, and in the business should be done. So I do take care of our house, our children and our business. And he forgot how to put plate in the dishwasher.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

What if a man told his wife early on in the marriage that he expects sex 2x per week. Is he then done? Does he never have to remind her, take any actions to keep things going? Does he not have to even ask her to have sex? NO.. The man has to do things to maintain his wife's interest in sex. He has to do this every day and not just on sex days. It's an ongoing proce3ss. So why, when a woman is wired to care about a clean house and her particular man is not ired this wayt... Why should she not have to take actions to maintain her husband's interest in housework? Why should she just expect to sit back and have him completely vested in meeting this need at all times?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> I respectfully disagree Hicks. What does it mean not to care about the house? We are not talking about decorating the house, we are talkinga about running the family - food, cleaning, washing, etc. This is not something you choose to care about, this is something that MUST be done.
> 
> You guys saying that sex is a need, not want. House chores are not a want, that for sure.


All of these things are the female need. "Running the house" That's what you don't see.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Hicks said:


> So why, when a woman is wired to care about a clean house and her particular man is not ired this wayt... Why should she not have to take actions to maintain her husband's interest in housework? Why should she just expect to sit back and have him completely vested in meeting this need at all times?


The children needing food, clean clothes and not having to live in a home that could be featured on hoarders should be a pretty good daily reminder, no? Should I really have to tell a grown man that dishes need to be washed? That spills on the floor need to be cleaned? That kids need to eat food?

I am not someone who needs everything in it's place and a magazine perfect home. I don't care about that. I am, however, an adult with children and have responsibilities. Someone HAS to do it. It's not meeting my need for a clean home, it's meeting the responsibilities as an adult and parent. CPS is not going to take your kids away if you stop having sex, they will if you stop feeding your kids and keeping your home liveable. That should be enough to keep someone vested in meeting the household needs.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

It has been more or less proven that men who do more housework tend to get it less. They get it more if they do the manly chores, but not if they do 'traditional' womans work. Just saying.

http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...EQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNGKCsw11F25YlfpzMGpr-SgMwF4-w


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> It has been more or less proven that men who do more housework tend to get it less. They get it more if they do the manly chores, but not if they do 'traditional' womans work. Just saying.


I've seen this quoted but never read the actual study. Do you have it?
Did it only focus on couples who both worked? 
Was it self reported? (my man would say he does about 40% of the housework- LMAO) 
Were the women questioned as well?

EDIT- just saw you link, off to read


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Hicks said:


> What if a man told his wife early on in the marriage that he expects sex 2x per week. Is he then done? Does he never have to remind her, take any actions to keep things going? Does he not have to even ask her to have sex? NO.. The man has to do things to maintain his wife's interest in sex. He has to do this every day and not just on sex days. It's an ongoing proce3ss. So why, when a woman is wired to care about a clean house and her particular man is not ired this wayt... Why should she not have to take actions to maintain her husband's interest in housework? Why should she just expect to sit back and have him completely vested in meeting this need at all times?


There are assumptions on Hicks part and Wanda's part. Granted I do not work now but when I did I could care less about my H doing laundry, cooking or cleaning. I just did them because I know he hates doing them. He did other stuff like cut the grass, shovel snow, wash the cars, empty the trash and fix broken stuff. Most of the stuff he did was not every day stuff, and most of the stuff I did had to be done every day. Did not matter. 

I also have never had to be reminded about sex, even when I went through an LD period due to birth control pills, I never turned my husband away for sex. Honestly I never saw any kind of connection between sex and household chores until I cam to TAM. 

To me it is just not something that you can say okay, men, or okay women, here is the deal. It just depends on the couple.

Also I dont know why this question is just for working couples. Although as a SAHM I do the cooking cleaning and laundry, some SAHMs expect help with that, especially where there are multiple children. Is it fair that they not ask for and expect help if they need it?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Don't limit it to JUST CHORES. That would be wrong.

It applies to EVERYTHING. Time with friends, hobbys, work, time with kids/family, sports, TV.....Phones.......Chores is simply something that OP is most likely completely overwhelmed with (90%/100%) so it's super easy to focus on/speak about. 

We are talking about "healthy balance in relationships". I like to think of it as a old school scale.

Tip it one way a little 10% or 20%, it's not big deal.....but something to take notice of..

Tip it towards one side too much, WATCH OUT.

Relationship success relies on this balance. It took me MANY years to understand this!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Hicks said:


> All of these things are the female need. "Running the house" That's what you don't see.


Really? How convenient, I have to say. There are many other things that I'd be doing than that. So what will happen if both of them give up on this?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> I respectfully disagree Hicks. What does it mean not to care about the house? We are not talking about decorating the house, we are talkinga about running the family - food, cleaning, washing, etc. This is not something you choose to care about, this is something that MUST be done.
> 
> You guys saying that sex is a need, not want. House chores are not a want, that for sure.


There are only 3 needs in life.

Food, Shelter and Job

rest are wants. House chores are a want. Do they HAVE to be done, no, you will survive without them. SHOULD they be done, YES and YES your husband should put in the effort if both of you work (50/50).

HOWEVER, does your husband do house maintenance and projects? Those can be rather involving and time consuming, and that might be HIS end of that 50% and part of "house chores".

Do you help with that?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I've seen this quoted but never read the actual study. Do you have it?
> Did it only focus on couples who both worked?
> Was it self reported? (my man would say he does about 40% of the housework- LMAO)
> Were the women questioned as well?
> ...


Google it, many studies and debates on it. I only put the one link in there. Probably a lot of debate on this, but the data is what it is.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> The children needing food, clean clothes and not having to live in a home that could be featured on hoarders should be a pretty good daily reminder, no? Should I really have to tell a grown man that dishes need to be washed? That spills on the floor need to be cleaned? That kids need to eat food?
> 
> I am not someone who needs everything in it's place and a magazine perfect home. I don't care about that. I am, however, an adult with children and have responsibilities. Someone HAS to do it. It's not meeting my need for a clean home, it's meeting the responsibilities as an adult and parent. CPS is not going to take your kids away if you stop having sex, they will if you stop feeding your kids and keeping your home liveable. That should be enough to keep someone vested in meeting the household needs.


I'm not sure you are getting what I am saying. It's not that men do not enjoy family life and home life. It's not that men do not want to see their kids in new clothes on the first day of school. It's that they are not biologically wired to focus on these things. Women are. And in knowing how your man thinks and operates, and not equating it with some hatred of you and all you stand for, you will be alot happier in your marriage. A decent husband will rise up and take care of these things even when he is not "biologically wired" to do it... However, that's where some flexibility on the other person's part is needed. He's just never going to care as deeply as you are about any of it. Just as you will never care as deeply about sex with him as he does with you.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

This is wide range and varies from relationships to relationship. And I agree with hicks that this matters most to the person that it matters most to. 

When married I did ALL the cooking and over 1/2 the cleaning. Why? Because I love to cook, big stress relief for me. I am also type A and need some order in areas of the house. To get that accomplished I would need to take more of the cleaning and straightening up role because it was important to ME. No complaint on my part. No I cleaned so I want a BJ tonight. All things we discussed and worked out when we lived together and broke down things that need to get done. 

One way she reciprocated wasn't sex but she would shop. I HATE grocery shopping.....I mean I ****ing hate it. I had considered on more than one occasion to get a service to shop for me lol. 

In any case this was never an issue that wasn't handeld with good communication. I wouldn't be in any relationship, marriage or otherwise, that was using sex as a treat or keeping a scorecard.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Hicks said:


> I'm not sure you are getting what I am saying. It's not that men do not enjoy family life and home life. It's not that men do not want to see their kids in new clothes on the first day of school. It's that they are not biologically wired to focus on these things. Women are. And in knowing how your man thinks and operates, and not equating it with some hatred of you and all you stand for, you will be alot happier in your marriage. A decent husband will rise up and take care of these things even when he is not "biologically wired" to do it... However, that's where some flexibility on the other person's part is needed. He's just never going to care as deeply as you are about any of it. Just as you will never care as deeply about sex with him as he does with you.


:iagree:

READ: EVERYBODY is different. Don't hate and force YOUR way onto others. Embrace the differences but still make sure your partner helps out with his share.

Something along the line....


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> Really? How convenient, I have to say. There are many other things that I'd be doing than that. So what will happen if both of them give up on this?


People can do things and benefit from things, even if it's not driven by the same biological need.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> Google it, many studies and debates on it. I only put the one link in there. Probably a lot of debate on this, but the data is what it is.


Yes, lots of debates. 

https://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/wome...chores-is-actually-awesome-for-your-sex-life/
_But new research says it's not so clear-cut. (And thank goodness.) A new study re-examines the relationship between housework and sexual relationships, and the conclusion is totally different.
The problem, according to the new study, is that previous research on this subject has relied on data from the National Survey of Families and Households, which has survey responses from 1992-1994. That means that their data is over two decades old—and relationships sure have changed a lot in two decades. When the researchers looked at data from the Marital and Relationship Survey from 2006, they looked at the same variables (frequency of sex compared and gendered division of chores), but they found that the more hours of housework, the greater frequency of sex._



IMO it would be a lot better to work out between the couple and not what worked and didn't work in those specific couples questioned in the '90s. If your wife wants you to do more chores- believe her, not some study.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> It has been more or less proven that men who do more housework tend to get it less. They get it more if they do the manly chores, but not if they do 'traditional' womans work. Just saying.
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...EQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNGKCsw11F25YlfpzMGpr-SgMwF4-w


It would be interesting to disect that data. I have a strong suspicion that men, who took up more house chores and ended up with less sex and respect - these are the doormat type, the one we are advised here on TAM to read No More Mr. Nice Guy. 

So, if that's the case, there are other issues involved than doing dishes leads to less sex. My marriage was at its best and sexually highest when we were partners. Period.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Hicks said:


> He's just never going to care as deeply as you are about any of it. Just as you will never care as deeply about sex with him as he does with you.


That's assuming that
1. I care deeply about a clean home 
and 
2. I don't care deeply about sex

Both are incorrect. 

I care deeply about having a man who respects me enough to not sit on his @ss while I work all night

I care deeply about having a man who knows how to do the basics to take care of himself, the kids and a home. 

I also care deeply about sex. Maybe hypothetical him (since mine doesn't care) is just more rested, less stressed, feels more respect and admiration for his partner and therefore is more likely to want/have time for sex.


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

Lila said:


> House Chores and Sex - Casa De Lila Guideline #1 (caveat, I'm NOT a SAHM)
> 
> Husband pays $120 for weekly cleaning service
> 
> Voila, Lila feels sexy!



240 a week for cleaning service? That seems like quite a bit.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Needs: Food, Shelter and a Job. Really?

Going grocery shopping is a chore. I assume most who post here aren't survivalists living off of the land and farming their own foods. You want to eat and live in the city or town, someone needs to go to the store.

Don't think clean dishes are a need? Cook off the same dirty pots and pans and eat off of the same dishes you used to marinate your meats and see how long it takes for you to get food poisoning. 

A few frequent bouts of food poisoning or something like botulism, see how productive you are at work. Not productive/working at work, see how long you get to keep that job.

Don't think general cleaning is a need? Wait and see how long it takes for mice, ****roaches, silverfish and ants to overrun your home, spreading diseases and germs like salmonella, scabies, the deadly hantovirus, e-coli, inducing asthmatic symptoms etc.

Don't think clean laundry is a need? I'd like to see a social experiment where you wear the same stinky drawers and socks to work everyday for a month along with your stinky stained shirts and pants. See how long you can keep this up and still have a job to go to. Do the same for your kids - send them to school in filthy clothes and underwear and see how long it takes for CPS or CAS (social services) to get involved. 

Without a job see how well you fair at keeping that shelter over your head or food on the table.

Don't want to cut the grass or take out the trash because they aren't "needs" see how long it takes for the city to charge you for your unkempt property. 

Without a clean environment for your kids, see how long it takes for CPS/CAS to get involved and take those neglected kids away.

The three basic needs are food, water and shelter but other things do need to be done in this day and age in order for them to happen.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Guy here, when I my x and i got married, I helped with all the household chores without being asked. Washing dishes, cooking, cleaning, etc, and it wasn't just helping when she decided to do it. If I had a day off and she didn't, I would clean the house. I usually got home from work before she did, and would often have supper fixed. I probably changed more diapers than she ever did, and got up during the night a lot for feedings. 

I guess if pushing these chores off on the wife causes resentment and loss of sexual desire, one might think doing all this stuff, while not particularly sexy within itself, would relieve some stress and worry from her and not make me look like a bum, thus, not taking away from our sex life. I never felt this excited her too much. I guess she appreciated it, but i think she took it for granted.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

I think the whole chores for sex discussions are bunk with the exception of certain circumstances. We divide them in pretty traditional ways and non traditional. I mow the lawn, shovel snow, keep the cars running.... all the "manly" shares. I also prepare all the meals during the work week. And by prepare I mean a scratch meal, protein, starch, veggie and salad. No Banquet, Tyson or any other crap that goes from freezer to oven. Why, because I get home an hour earlier then she does. On the weekends the kitchen is her domain, she loves it and is far more talented a cook than I am. The other chores are done as needed. Nothing is assigned nor requested by each other. It is simply a function of what the household, kids or schedule requires. 

The "traditional" sex for chores works properly only when the wife's love language is "Acts of Service". In that dynamic, if the husband does his share or more it is telling her he loves her and he is filling an emotional need for her. The marriage tends to be happier and the sex more frequent and satisfying. Years ago, I tried using the sex for chores approach and it failed miserably. Why, because AOS was not her love language but in my simple neanderthal mentality I had broken sex down into a bartering system. The Pavlovian theory broke down as I was not getting my "due" even though I felt I had earned it. Resentment towards her grew as I perceived her more as a gate keeper to the crotch than a willing partner. She in turn, placed no emotional value to my efforts. AOS is not her love language, chores was just a function of the house hold. While for some partners it can work, generally the bartering system for sex is an indicator that there are some deeper issues in the relationship. 

Resentment grows in a marriage when needs are not met, or even attempted. It doesn't matter if the need has to do with house work, sex, attention, quality time or gift giving. Those have to be attended to and not bartered for. 

As far as husbands being slovenly man-children, well there are those out there. But in my experience here and IRL there are just as many wives with the same affliction. A slob is a slob and it is gender independent.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Hicks said:


> Each person cares about different things in marriage.
> For example, many men really don't care about decor, neatness, cleanliness of the "nest". Many men do care about this. Many don't. Many women don't care about sex. Many do. I'm not stereotyping. The point is, the "work" in marriage is doing the things you don't care about simply because the other person does care about them. In this scenario the man does not care about the house as much as the wife does, and the woman does not care about sex as much as the husband does. To be successful in marriage each person must recognize that they have to work hard to meet the other person's needs, but they also need to work hard to advocate for their own needs. And ideally you understand your partner well enough to know that they are imperfect (not unloving) and that meeting needs and advocating for needs is an ongoing part of marriage.


Absolutely! Sounds easy but in truth not as easy as it sounds. We each have to be responsible for what we bring to the marriage and we have to voice our concerns and needs. I think that right there tends to be a problem because many people don't even understand themselves and I think for some expressing their needs is not easy so it becomes a guessing game that is unfair to the spouse. I think hard feelings result from not being heard and from not expressing one's self properly.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

To me, household chores are a baseline. They have to be done and they are the responsibility of both people in the household. 

It's not going to turn me on if my partner does his fair share. But it will turn me off if he doesn't do his fair share.

Put it all on me, and not only will I resent the hell out of him and not want sex with him, I wouldn't want to live with him at all. If I have to do everything, I'd rather live alone.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

To me, sex is a baseline. It has to be done and it is the responsibility of both people in the household.

It's not going to cause me to want to do housework if my partner does her fair share. But it will turn me off to the idea of housework if she doesn't do her fair share.

Put it all on me, and not only will I resent the hell out of her and not want to do household chores, I would not want to live with her at all. If I have to have sex with myself, I'd rather live alone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Nail said:


> The other dirty jobs you should be signing up for are, Taking out the stinking trash, and cleaning the trash can. Clearing clogged toilets and cleaning toilets. Be sure to leave the seat up to dry properly. Cleaning hair nests out of the shower drain. Killing and disposing of vermin (including spiders). Anything that involves pet waste. Next on your list chose something that your wife really hates.


Mr. Nail, I get your point. 

The problem is that the toilet only clogs once every 4 months. The trash goes out once a week. Vermin show up once a year. etc. 

The dishes have to be done every day. The laundry has to be done daily so as not to build up. The food has to be cooked at least once a day if not thrice. The wood has to be dusted weekly. The floor swept every other day. The bed made daily. The clothes hung up and ironed and put away many times a week. etc.

Are you saying that a man shouldn't need to participate on a daily basis because he's reserving his strength for stomping on the spider? Good luck with that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

This pretty much sums it up:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ax8Aito6-x0YwTOLA&sig2=ZPFTNDqeejV963ApErxygQ


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> That's assuming that
> 1. I care deeply about a clean home
> and
> 2. I don't care deeply about sex
> ...


So tell me, why would a woman marry a men that has very little care for these important things?

This is where I struggle to understand these topics. If you put high emphasis on <insert anything> and your partner lacks it, break thing off and find someone that does.

Marrying dreams or hope....or change is "doing it wrong"

And if the person used to do it, but no longer does, and it's important......time to put your foot down and start giving him final warnings> proceed to divorce.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hicks said:


> To be successful in marriage each person must recognize that they have to work hard to meet the other person's needs, but they also need to work hard to advocate for their own needs.


I've been asking my H not to leave a trail of dirty clothes (and papers and electronics and mail and everything else) throughout the house for 35 years. It does.not.register. His mom lived with us for years and when she left, the house fell apart. I had no idea she'd been going around behind him cleaning up all his sh*t. I've tried leaving it there (for WEEKS), I've tried dumping it all on his side of the bed, I've tried leaving it ON the bed, I've tried throwing it away, I've tried keeping a box on his side, I've tried moving his stuff to his office. He.doesn't.care. And yes, guess what? I HATE having sex with him because my resentment is so OVER the top for him; the only reason I even do it any more is because he whines like a little baby when he doesn't get it.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I've never cared about the sex=chores thing. We lead a pretty traditional household. What I do care about is a man that gets stuff done around the house that needs to be done. Don't sit there on the computer all day when that drawer in the kitchen needs to be fixed or the garage door won't open. There is nothing more annoying than a bunch of broken stuff around the house.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> So ladies, let's try to explain better how it works. I start - it is about fairness to each other. If there are two working adults in the relationship, they both should be sharing their household responsibilities. If you are slowly moving your part into your wife, you are showing her that you are completely fine in abusing her trust in your fairness, in abousing her sense of responsibility for the house, as long as you can get away with it. You want things to be taken care of, without being bothered. You want your wife to be what your mother was to you: make sure things are done around the house, remind you of your responsiblities, nagging you to to your share. Convinience killed your sense fo fairness to your wife. do you think she likes to nag, ask, beg for you to do something? She hates herself for becoming nagging wife, and she start resenting you for making her to do it. And remember - if you want mommy at home to take care of you - that relationship does not include sex. The resentment keeps building up. The HD wife slowly becomes LD, because her "we are equals" husband turn into "go do it" husband.


:scratchhead: Apparently you have not been around my house. SAHM work harder than those out in a place of business. SAHM hours do not stop at 5. They go through the night. I realize this and give a hand to my W all the time. 9 times out of 10 she does not have to ask.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

turnera said:


> I've been asking my H not to leave a trail of dirty clothes (and papers and electronics and mail and everything else) throughout the house for 35 years. It does.not.register. His mom lived with us for years and when she left, the house fell apart. I had no idea she'd been going around behind him cleaning up all his sh*t. I've tried leaving it there (for WEEKS), I've tried dumping it all on his side of the bed, I've tried leaving it ON the bed, I've tried throwing it away, I've tried keeping a box on his side, I've tried moving his stuff to his office. He.doesn't.care. And yes, guess what? I HATE having sex with him because my resentment is so OVER the top for him; the only reason I even do it any more is because he whines like a little baby when he doesn't get it.


I've been on this site for years, and read so much of your feedback on other posts. I don't know why, but this made me laugh for the past 5 minutes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I've never cared about the sex=chores thing. We lead a pretty traditional household. What I do care about is a man that gets stuff done around the house that needs to be done. Don't sit there on the computer all day when that drawer in the kitchen needs to be fixed or the garage door won't open. There is nothing more annoying than a bunch of broken stuff around the house.


Oh, don't even get me _started _on the holes in the ceiling from 10 years ago. The garage door that hasn't worked since the hurricane FIVE years ago. The new toilet that sat unattached for 3 years. I have a two-page list of things that have broken that have never been fixed, because it's just too 'upsetting' for him to have to deal with. While he 'works' on his laptop and I do 95% of the chores.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Hicks said:


> To me, sex is a baseline. It has to be done and it is the responsibility of both people in the household.
> 
> It's not going to cause me to want to do housework if my partner does her fair share. But it will turn me off to the idea of housework if she doesn't do her fair share.
> 
> Put it all on me, and not only will I resent the hell out of her and not want to do household chores, I would not want to live with her at all. If I have to have sex with myself, I'd rather live alone.


I see what you did there. LOL


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

When my wife was a SAHM, I would still come home and make dinner if I was home early enough... After all I enjoy cooking. I also did equal if not more house cleaning, even though my wife was home all day...

Did I connect me doing the cooking, laundry and vacuuming with sex? There has never been a time when my wife cooked dinner and we had sex that night. I knew that if my wife had to make dinner, there would be no sex that night...


I never believed that me doing house work got my wife all horny. However, if I made her life easier, she couldn't tell me she was too exhausted because she was cleaning the house all day...She still said she was too tired. 


I will say that I love cooking. My wife grew to expect me to always cook because I enjoy it. She went out of her way to not even go in the kitchen close to dinnertime if I was home...Then get mad if I didn't get dinner started...

Now that she has a job, sex is almost non existent. She reminds me all the time how exhausted she is.

I will say that I no longer care to make dinner for my wife. Its no longer pleasurable.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> Oh, don't even get me _started _on the holes in the ceiling from 10 years ago. The garage door that hasn't worked since the hurricane FIVE years ago. The new toilet that sat unattached for 3 years. I have a two-page list of things that have broken that have never been fixed, because it's just too 'upsetting' for him to have to deal with. While he 'works' on his laptop and I do 95% of the chores.


Can you just go ahead and hire a handyman to fix those things? He obviously doesn't really want to do any of that himself, even though he says he'll do it.

I used to live with an ex, and The Broken Dryer became this huge issue for us. Guess what? The dryer broke! There was a fix, just needed to replace a part. He SAID he would fix it. For weeks, he said he'd fix it and wouldn't let me call a repair guy. I started doing laundry at my mother's house. Still not fixed. I stopped doing his laundry altogether and just did my own at my mother's house. Still not fixed...he went to the laundromat. Still not fixed. Still would not let me call a repair guy.

I moved out with the dryer not fixed.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

turnera said:


> Oh, don't even get me _started _on the holes in the ceiling from 10 years ago. The garage door that hasn't worked since the hurricane FIVE years ago. The new toilet that sat unattached for 3 years. I have a two-page list of things that have broken that have never been fixed, because it's just too 'upsetting' for him to have to deal with. While he 'works' on his laptop and I do 95% of the chores.


See, I'm not a repair guy. I will tackle certain things like I installed my gf's dishwasher sunday. I also can replace a busted pipe or fix holes in sheetrock. Outside of that, call a repair guy. I'll pay for someone to fix it. My ex complained all the time that I didn't fix things. Well, it's because she wanted me to do it and not "spend the money" for a repair guy. Frick that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

norajane said:


> Can you just go ahead and hire a handyman to fix those things? He obviously doesn't really want to do any of that himself, even though he says he'll do it.


That's what my IC told me to do, she even gave me a phone number for a repair man. The problem is he blows up at me when I even mention bringing someone else in. So I've had to work on my fear of conflict in IC to be able to deal with the fallout. Not to mention that he got us $100,000 in debt and I don't have any disposable income to afford repairmen, as I took over the bills and am trying to pay it down. (couldn't afford the IC anymore, either)

I did manage to get him to install the toilet, because I downloaded instructions and gathered tools and asked him if I had the right tool, so of course he jumped up to do it so I wouldn't 'mess it up.' I'm now in the process of picking another chore that I can 'start' to do so he'll take over, lol.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Trickster said:


> When my wife was a SAHM, I would still come home and make dinner if I was home early enough... After all I enjoy cooking. I also did equal if not more house cleaning, even though my wife was home all day...
> 
> Did I connect me doing the cooking, laundry and vacuuming with sex? There has never been a time when my wife cooked dinner and we had sex that night. I knew that if my wife had to make dinner, there would be no sex that night...
> 
> ...


Funny how that works, isn't it? I could replace YOUR stuff with the stuff women typically are expected to do and are taken for granted about, and how SHE no longer cares to have SEX with her husband. Root of the problem, right there.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

turnera said:


> Oh, don't even get me _started _on the holes in the ceiling from 10 years ago. The garage door that hasn't worked since the hurricane FIVE years ago. The new toilet that sat unattached for 3 years. I have a two-page list of things that have broken that have never been fixed, because it's just too 'upsetting' for him to have to deal with. While he 'works' on his laptop and I do 95% of the chores.


The problem is certainly him, but not for one second you forget that it's also you.

If you have a ****ty man, accept it and move on. 

By staying you are signing "Your BS is completely acceptable" form.

Sorry


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why do you think I'm trying to pay down the debt?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

turnera said:


> Why do you think I'm trying to pay down the debt?


So that he can run it up again? 

What stops you from splitting it in divorce and paying LESS debt in shorter amount of time?

:scratchhead:


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

DoF said:


> The problem is certainly him, but not for one second you forget that it's also you.
> 
> If you have a ****ty man, accept it and move on.
> 
> ...


Leaving is almost always easier said than done and since many issues don't come up until after children are born, houses are bought, money is tied together, families are connected, etc and that makes it even harder.

It's just as easy to say men, if your wife is LD for whatever reason- leave. 

Then this wouldn't be a conversation at all. 

No one is going to have a perfect relationship. Some issues can be fixed, some can be looked past or compromised on. Some you just have to live with for a while. Not everyone wants to or can throw in the towel and move on, at least not yet.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

turnera said:


> Funny how that works, isn't it? I could replace YOUR stuff with the stuff women typically are expected to do and are taken for granted about, and how SHE no longer cares to have SEX with her husband. Root of the problem, right there.


I stopped doing her laundry and cooking. I didn't even vacuum every few day to get up the dog fair from the rug... The wife acted like it didn't bother her one little bit.

After 6 weeks, we are having sex again...

I don't think sex is worth all the work I do around the house...

Dang I sound like a woman.lol


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

To me this isn't just no chores = no sex or chores = sex. Which sounds like how a lot of people are hearing this. 

This isn't cause and effect. More like cause, effect and result.

*The cause:*
Apathetic husband doesn't do his fair share around the house even though both husband and wife work full time and have similar amounts of stress. 

*The effect:* 
The wife feels overtired and overburdened as a result of having to carry her load and his. A parent and child dynamic sets in. As do growing resentments towards her husband for what she feels is an apparent lack of care for her.

*The result:*
She starts feeling less love and affection towards her husband. Lust is quashed so she initiates less and rejects his advances more, resulting in sparse or lackluster sex.

The bottom line, bluntly stated is that no healthy, sound woman wants to fvck her son. By making your wife your caregiver as well as the children, you are putting yourself on the same level as one of the kids. A parent/child dynamic sets in and parent/child dynamics in a marriage kill respect and lust. Resentment also kills lust and leads to contempt. A woman who is more keen on poking your eyes out will be less keen on being "poked" by you. Once you reach contempt for each other or one does for the other, good luck coming back from that. 

These women aren't bemoaning about their husband's failure to pick the right draperies to match the mauve living room. That'd be an entirely different matter. 

As a SAHM, I do most of the work around the house while my spouse is at work. Right now, that is my job. I keep the same hours he does and consider myself "on the clock" when he's at work. I get everything done so we can all relax together in the evenings. I am pretty sure he thinks the work I do around the house is necessary. I'm also sure that if he came home to a pig sty everyday, dirty laundry and dishes, barren cupboards/fridge and no dinner even though I'm home all day that he would feel taken for granted... as do the men (see these posts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) that live this right now and post on TAM. It is not just women that would feel resentment if they don't feel their spouse is pulling their equal weight. Men do too. 

(But chores aren't needs so maybe those men whose wives don't cook and clean should shut their yap traps and be happy with what they have).


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I do recognize that this situation can work in reverse as well. A woman who doesn't have sex with her husband or turns into a "nice moms don't do that" woman once the kids are born is likely to become unsexy to her husband. Healthy men probably don't want to fvck their mother either.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Hicks said:


> To me, sex is a baseline. It has to be done and it is the responsibility of both people in the household.
> 
> It's not going to cause me to want to do housework if my partner does her fair share. But it will turn me off to the idea of housework if she doesn't do her fair share.
> 
> Put it all on me, and not only will I resent the hell out of her and not want to do household chores, I would not want to live with her at all. If I have to have sex with myself, I'd rather live alone.


I thought about this. I guess where it falls apart for me is that I don't consider sex a responsibility. I consider it a pleasure. 

I don't have sex to try to get someone to do chores; I have sex because I'm into my partner and he treats me well. I don't think of sex as a chore. I don't think of sex as something I do for him. I think of it as something fun we do together because we enjoy each other. 

If I ever thought of sex in terms of the daily grind of chores and responsibilities, if sex felt like a chore and was treated like a chore by either of us, if sex were equated to chores, that means sex stopped being a pleasure and the relationship was in serious trouble.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

norajane said:


> I thought about this. I guess where it falls apart for me is that I don't consider sex a responsibility. I consider it a pleasure.
> 
> I don't have sex to try to get someone to do chores; I have sex because I'm into my partner and he treats me well. I don't think of sex as a chore. I don't think of sex as something I do for him. I think of it as something fun we do together because we enjoy each other.
> 
> If I ever thought of sex in terms of the daily grind of chores and responsibilities, if sex felt like a chore and was treated like a chore by either of us, if sex were equated to chores, that means sex stopped being a pleasure and the relationship was in serious trouble.


T'was so nice had to like it twice.

Not to mention what men often report here about "duty sex". Many say they'd rather go without than do it with a wife who only has it out of obligation.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

norajane said:


> I thought about this. I guess where it falls apart for me is that I don't consider sex a responsibility. I consider it a pleasure.
> 
> I don't have sex to try to get someone to do chores; I have sex because I'm into my partner and he treats me well. I don't think of sex as a chore. I don't think of sex as something I do for him. I think of it as something fun we do together because we enjoy each other.
> 
> If I ever thought of sex in terms of the daily grind of chores and responsibilities, if sex felt like a chore and was treated like a chore by either of us, if sex were equated to chores, that means sex stopped being a pleasure and the relationship was in serious trouble.


I agree, sex should never end up being equated with chores. Sex is supposed to be something fun for both partners. But what can happen is when spouses have different ideas about prioritizing fun and chores.

You may have one spouse (let's say the wife!) who prefers to do the work first, and then have the fun. She's the kind of person who can't let go and enjoy herself if she knows there are chores going undone. When the house is clean, then she can have her fun. Unfortunately, if the household chores are not well divided, she may be too tired, or it may be too late, for any fun when they are finally finished. Then she feels resentful of her spouse for not being more of a helper.

Then the other spouse (let's say the husband) is a procrastinator, who is perfectly content to let the chores sit undone while he does something more fun first. He'll let the dishes sit, the laundry pile up, the grass grow, etc, while he focuses on video games and TV and sex. Before you know it, the house is either a pigsty, or someone else has done the chores for him. And if there's a spouse doing the chores, resentment builds up and the dynamic that chores = sex sets in. ESPECIALLY if the procrastinator is causing a disproportionate amount of the mess!

If both partners have the same chore/fun ethic, there's no problem. If they differ, they need to communicate and understand one another's priorities to try to come to a compromise. Doesn't it always come down to communication?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> I refuse to quietly say BS. This is to important and tricky of an issue to leave it to chance.
> 
> Now that we are getting to a solid definition of what it is we are talking about, we can get serious about discussing it. We are talking about damage done to a marriage over unfair distribution of duties.


This topic is not BS. It’s talking about marriages like mine.

I worked full time and more. My husband did NO household chores at all. I mean none. He did none of the things that some here have suggested are men’s chores. I ended up responsible for all chores, for raising his children and my son, for paying the bills, etc. 

Yes I tried talking to him. He’d agree that he needed to do things. But it never changed his behavior. Not even for a day or two. 

You can bet that I grew resentful of him and his attitude that I was his maid, nanny and financial manager. Note that we are no longer married. I filed for divorce. He did not want a divorce. 



Mr. Nail said:


> Right off we have Richards very valid point about counting chores that you get some enjoyment from. If she thinks he is not being fair because he likes his chores then she will not be happy. But would she be happy if she traded chores? or would she hate his chores as much as she hates hers but is only happy when he is miserable. You see the difficulty?
> 
> OK this is where my suggestion to take on her most hated chore comes in. My wife hates folding laundry. I hate washing dishes. Just the hands in the sink part. Everything else I'm ok. So we swapped those two. I don't wash, she doesn't fold. fair division.
> 
> ...


The above turns the issue into something that is basically saying that a wife who is unhappy because her husband does little to no chores is really just a spoiled brat who is unhappy that her husband gets to do chores that he likes.
I agree that when dividing chores, each spouse should first be able to pick the chores that they like to do. Then any leftover can be divided. But in the end, the amount of time and effort needed to do the chores should be fairly equal (it will never be exactly 50/50). Sometimes one spouse will do more, other times the other spouse will do more.

The OP is talking about the idea that some men have that if they do chores they should be rewarded for it with sex. That does not fly because those chores are their responsibility…. Unless the guy is doing most of the chores to 100% of the chores. Then he’s as much a pushover as a woman who does the same thing. 
And yes I was an idiot and a pushover for not kicking him out of the house in the first few months when it became apparent that he intended to never do what he was responsible for doing.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> Mr. Nail, I get your point.
> 
> Are you saying that a man shouldn't need to participate on a daily basis because he's reserving his strength for stomping on the spider? Good luck with that.


Claws out!
I did include cleaning the toilet, and taking on the chore she hates most. I am not saying that a man should only participate on weekends etc. This part of the post is about deliberately choosing tasks that do not emasculate you in her eyes. Now some women do not see many tasks as emasculating, and if you are in that situation you can do whatever but you need to be careful. Many men see folding laundry as emasculating, I don't get it, my wife hates it so I do it. 

In fact I'll restate and add to this. The important bit is that it feels fair. My mom wisely told me that in a marriage each person needs to contribute 60%. If Wanda's man was thinking he was contributing 60% she would not be laughing she would probably think he was contributing 40% but her satisfaction would be out of the danger zone. 

Now if a man has 5 weekly chores and 1 daily chore theoretically that would balance 2 daily chores. but if the weekly chore takes 8 hours of continuous labor it might be equal to a daily chore. There is no way I could make the division for another couple. 

This is what works: When you see your spouse working don't be sitting on your Butt. When you see something that needs to be done do it. When you appreciate something show it. If you finish the roll replace it. If you eat the last snack, get more. 

MN


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You haven't done chores till you have gone mouse hunting in a 6000 sq ft house...

So far 1 caught and I think 1-2 more left and the wife indicated she's not in the mood for sex because of the mouse problem 

So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen... If that makes it into the next revision of someone's book I demand credit


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Hicks said:


> What if a man told his wife early on in the marriage that he expects sex 2x per week. Is he then done? Does he never have to remind her, take any actions to keep things going? Does he not have to even ask her to have sex? NO.. The man has to do things to maintain his wife's interest in sex. He has to do this every day and not just on sex days. It's an ongoing proce3ss. So why, when a woman is wired to care about a clean house and her particular man is not ired this wayt...


Why do you assume it's the wife's job to remind her husband that he has responsibility help run the home and the family.

It's nonsense that it's only the woman who cares about these things. When a man lives alone he does them for himself.



Hicks said:


> Why should she not have to take actions to maintain her husband's interest in housework? Why should she just expect to sit back and have him completely vested in meeting this need at all times?


Because the house is not her's alone. The children are not hers alone. He has a RESONSIBLITY to take care of his home and his children. 

Why do you assume that a man doing these things is to meet some need his wife has.

It's not a woman's responsibility to somehow sweet talk her husband into things that are his responsibility. Either he's a mature adult male who does what he needs to do or he's not a mature man and he's acting like a teen expecting his wife to be his mommy and take care of the things that HE IS RESPONSIBILE FOR.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Upgrading the alpha is what gets you laid. Things like getting in shape, taking care of the finances, fixing stuff. 

Doing laundry and helping around the house is what keeps wife happy. 

When men clean to get laid this is huge covert contract. It's a lie perpetrated by Cosmo and women's magazines and men fall for it hook line and sinker. 

Too much alpha and she thinks your a prîck and becomes distrustful of the relationship. To much care taking and she starts to think "I love you but I'm not in love with you". It's a fine line.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

norajane said:


> I used to live with an ex, and The Broken Dryer became this huge issue for us. Guess what? The dryer broke! There was a fix, just needed to replace a part. He SAID he would fix it. For weeks, he said he'd fix it and wouldn't let me call a repair guy. I started doing laundry at my mother's house. Still not fixed. I stopped doing his laundry altogether and just did my own at my mother's house. Still not fixed...he went to the laundromat. Still not fixed. Still would not let me call a repair guy.
> 
> I moved out with the dryer not fixed.


I love how you capitalize it; The Broken Dryer, like it's a story title. But really, I bet it was emblematic of all the issues in the relationship.

This man made commitments to you that he didn't follow through on. He ignored that his inaction was inconveniencing you and causing you unhappiness. He refused to put in a small bit of effort to bring you relief. He valued his own laziness more than he did your needs and happiness. He was controlling when you suggested hiring someone. Expand this attitude from a single instance to an entire relationship, and you have a man not worth staying with.

I've worded this deliberately so that someone like Hicks could turn it into an analogy about sex instead of a broken dryer. But again, that equates sex to chores, making it about something one person must do for the other, instead of considering sex as a pleasurable activity two people do together.

Chores are called chores because doing them is unpleasant but necessary work. You do them even when you don't enjoy it because they aren't going away. They are not optional. When every last dish in the house is piled up dirty in the sink, you are forced to do the washing up if you want to have something to eat off. When you are forced to have sex, it's called rape.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> You haven't done chores till you have gone mouse hunting in a 6000 sq ft house...
> 
> So far 1 caught and I think 1-2 more left and the wife indicated she's not in the mood for sex because of the mouse problem
> 
> So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen... If that makes it into the next revision of someone's book I demand credit


Well my house is only 3000 sq ft. But I live on a farm with all the things that attract mice. But I'm the one who does the mouse hunting. It's really rather easy. There are mouse traps and little boxes of poison that the mouse takes back to their nest. The poison wipes out the entire mouse colony. Works great.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Hicks said:


> All of these things are the female need. "Running the house" That's what you don't see.


No, running the house is not a female need. Not when the woman is working full time. When both spouses are working full time, household chores are the responsibility of both spouses.

This is what many men seem to not get.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> This topic is not BS.
> 
> The OP is talking about the idea that some men have that if they do chores they should be rewarded for it with sex. That does not fly because those chores are their responsibility…. Unless the guy is doing most of the chores to 100% of the chores. Then he’s as much a pushover as a woman who does the same thing.


And the same men would never admit to "paying" for sex!

In fact the fact that sex is mentioned in the title of this thread indicates that there is some bad thinking going on. 

I want to use this reply to also follow up on the process post earlier. Cause: no sharing of duties. Effect: resentment. Result: less interest in sex. That is exactly right and proven and even common. What is wrong is that the overly logical male mind thinks that the reverse is true. Cause: more Chores. Effect: end of resentment Result: return of attraction. This is not true. I propose that it looks more like this. Cause: fairer sharing of household duties. Effect: lingering Suspicion. Result: a chance to save the marriage if he sticks to it. Unless this happens: Cause: Over participation in household, over agreeing, doormat. Effect: Contempt. Result: Uses new free time to satisfy sexual urges elsewhere.

MN


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> It has been more or less proven that men who do more housework tend to get it less. They get it more if they do the manly chores, but not if they do 'traditional' womans work. Just saying.
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...EQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNGKCsw11F25YlfpzMGpr-SgMwF4-w


The study was done in 1992. That's 22 years ago. More women work outside the home today. This dynamic alone shifts people's attitudes. A woman who is a SAHM usually takes responsibility for most of the household chores and child rearing. A woman who works full time just like her husband does not. Household chores are no only her responsibility.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> That's assuming that
> 1. I care deeply about a clean home
> and
> 2. I don't care deeply about sex
> ...


:iagree: QFT


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

U.E. McGill said:


> When men clean to get laid this is huge covert contract.


Men shouldn't clean to get laid.

Men should clean to be a man and take care of their responsibilities so they can be a respected member of the household and not treat their spouse like a Mommy. 

Earning that respect and taking the stress off the wife and giving her more downtime might result in more sex.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think that the chores thing for a lot of women is just something concrete they can point to. They are really saying that you don't bring enough value to this relationship. In most cases, I think the problem is bigger than just not doing the dishes or laundry. Which is why men are so often perplexed when they do what they think they are supposed to and the bitterness remains.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Hicks said:


> To me, sex is a baseline. It has to be done and it is the responsibility of both people in the household.
> 
> It's not going to cause me to want to do housework if my partner does her fair share. But it will turn me off to the idea of housework if she doesn't do her fair share.
> 
> Put it all on me, and not only will I resent the hell out of her and not want to do household chores, I would not want to live with her at all. If I have to have sex with myself, I'd rather live alone.


So if your wife does not have sex with you... you will refuse to go to the grocery store to get food for your children. You will refuse to feed your children, change their diapers, dress them, make sure that they are living in a clean environment? 

Also, if your wife does not have sex with you, you will refuse to do your own landry, cook food for yourself, clean your own dishes, pots and pans. You will refuse to cut the grass in your yard, and so forth.

Really?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DoF said:


> *So tell me, why would a woman marry a men that has very little care for these important things?*
> 
> This is where I struggle to understand these topics. If you put high emphasis on <insert anything> and your partner lacks it, break thing off and find someone that does.
> 
> ...


I can answer for my situation. When we dated he was raising 2 children on his own. He worked full time, did all the household and outside chores himself. When he flew out to visit me he helped... we were dating so yes it was him helping me cook, do dishes, etc.

It all changed on the day we married. That was the end of him doing anything... inside the house, out side the house and for his children.

These are very often bait and switch situations.

One of the other female posters here posted that it changed slowly over her marriage.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> The study was done in 1992. That's 22 years ago. More women work outside the home today. This dynamic alone shifts people's attitudes. A woman who is a SAHM usually takes responsibility for most of the household chores and child rearing. A woman who works full time just like her husband does not. Household chores are no only her responsibility.


Just my opinion, but if you believe the results were valid then, they probably still are today. And this is the law of averages thing, most of the women posting on this thread seem to have some lazy a$$ husbands. I suspect if they weren't lazy a$$es the women would more fit the study results. The problem is they are off the reservaton with respect to the study.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Prior to marriage, I lived with a bunch of guys. There were mushrooms growing out of the bathroom floor. There was no toilet paper so everyone had to hoard their own TP and hide it. The place was dirty and it probably smelled bad. The phone and the electric were getting shut off constantly. Every morning there would be random people crashed on the floors. Grocery shopping was only done the day before the big party.

Disclaimer: I am aware that there are plenty of men who do not follow along with this stereotype and there are plenty of women who do not care if their husband acts a certain way in order to be sexual.

The point is that the things most women see as absolute necessities in life are not absolute necessities to the men they marry.

That's not to say a man should not do household chores or be expected to do them or have a responsibility to do them. The point I am making is that the mindset of the man is not necessarily "hate" but rather "ignorance". And if a wife asks repeatedly and the man still avoids it, then yes he is a terrible husband. Any person in the marriage needs to get to a point where they enjoy pleasing the other person merely because it gives them joy to make their spouse's life better.

And I would also say that the average man does not ignore his wife's need for help with chores. Pretty early on in my marriage I recognized that my wife would literally divorce me if I was not bringing anything to the table in this area. I think a few attempt to "get away" with being lazy but suffer either a divorce or miserable marriages anyhow...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> These are very often bait and switch situations.


Yep!!
Mine had lived 10 years as a bachelor. Took pride in his clean home, was even a cook for a few years way back when. None of this was an issue until I took my year mat leave off and took over the SAHM role. When I went back to work he didn't meet me half way... now it seems he doesn't know how to work the microwave or find his own socks.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I agree, sex should never end up being equated with chores. Sex is supposed to be something fun for both partners. But what can happen is when spouses have different ideas about prioritizing fun and chores.
> 
> You may have one spouse (let's say the wife!) who prefers to do the work first, and then have the fun. She's the kind of person who can't let go and enjoy herself if she knows there are chores going undone. When the house is clean, then she can have her fun. Unfortunately, if the household chores are not well divided, she may be too tired, or it may be too late, for any fun when they are finally finished. Then she feels resentful of her spouse for not being more of a helper.
> 
> ...


I think the BELIEF sets in that chores = sex. But you could replace neglecting their fair share of chores with other behaviors, and it leads to the same resentment and loss of desire. Say a wife constantly belittles her husband. Is he really going to be interested in having sex with her? Why would he when she's treating him like crap?

I think anything that causes resentment or hurt will impact a person's desire to have sex with their partner.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Yeswecan said:


> :scratchhead: Apparently you have not been around my house. SAHM work harder than those out in a place of business. SAHM hours do not stop at 5. They go through the night. I realize this and give a hand to my W all the time. 9 times out of 10 she does not have to ask.


SAHM do not work harder than working mothers. Why? Because working mothers come home at 5 (or whenever) and still have to work.. taking car of children, around the house, the yard, shopping, etc, just as much as SAHMs do.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> So if your wife does not have sex with you... you will refuse to go to the grocery store to get food for your children. You will refuse to feed your children, change their diapers, dress them, make sure that they are living in a clean environment?
> 
> Also, if your wife does not have sex with you, you will refuse to do your own landry, cook food for yourself, clean your own dishes, pots and pans. You will refuse to cut the grass in your yard, and so forth.
> 
> Really?


Actually, no. I did not refuse to do any of that when my wife refused to have sex with me. Funny how that works.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

U.E. McGill said:


> Upgrading the alpha is what gets you laid. Things like getting in shape, taking care of the finances, fixing stuff.
> 
> Doing laundry and helping around the house is what keeps wife happy.


And not too EXHAUSTED to care about sex, if she worked full time and then had to go home and cook, do dishes, check homework, give baths, clean, do laundry, put the kids to bed, fold and put away towels and laundry, while he sat on the couch watching tv or spent his time at the gym - and then is expected to be ready for sex at 10pm.


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## JASON56 (Aug 28, 2014)

What use to get me is the different time line..

A women wants a man to do his chores on her time-line .If i was suppose to do all the dishes for the night.. i would eat, watch the news and then do dishes.. that's my time-line,

nope that's not the right time line, you eat and do dishes and then watch what's left of the news.

So i would do it my why and she would do the dishes because she could not wait 30 mins..
Same with cutting the grass.. i will do it when i want to, not when you want it done...


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> It has been more or less proven that men who do more housework tend to get it less. They get it more if they do the manly chores, but not if they do 'traditional' womans work. Just saying.
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...EQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNGKCsw11F25YlfpzMGpr-SgMwF4-w


I'll speak from my PERSONAL perception.

My wife and I don't do the whole....who's role is this...crap.

We both tend to do certain things well (or fits into our schedule because I stay up later than she does). So I wash and dry more clothes while she folds almost all of them. I cook 75% or more of the time, etc. etc. She spends more time doing homework with our kids. We keep our house up, and we approach it from a "who's available to get it done" point of view.

Because of that attitude, neither of us builds up resentment. In turn, our sex life is good. It's not perfect, but that's more to do with having an infant than anything else but we both try VERY hard to make sex a priority because we both need it


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> Just my opinion, but if you believe the results were valid then, they probably still are today. And this is the law of averages thing, most of the women posting on this thread seem to have some lazy a$$ husbands. I suspect if they weren't lazy a$$es the women would more fit the study results. The problem is they are off the reservaton with respect to the study.


A few posts back, someone posted a link to more recent studies that show something different. They also point out flaws in the 1992 study. 

Men seem to prefer the 1992 so that's the one that seems to be posted and reposted... :scratchhead:


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> :scratchhead: Apparently you have not been around my house. SAHM work harder than those out in a place of business. SAHM hours do not stop at 5. They go through the night. I realize this and give a hand to my W all the time. 9 times out of 10 she does not have to ask.


I will say this up front...I was the husband of a SAHM, and our situation was not the typical one trotted out where the SAHM did "EVERTHING". I worked full time, spent four hours, yes you read that right, four hours commuting every day for work so that she could have the house she wanted. I was an engaged father. My typical day was me getting home around 6:00 pm and immediately running kids around to various activities until around 9:00 pm when I would get back home and eat a reheated meal alone because they had all eaten earlier. My ex wife then had the gall to complain that I never cooked, never ate with them, never did anything, and how hard it was for her because I got to come home from work while she was at work 24/7 and never got any time off...she was full of sh1t too. I got up in the middle of the night with the kids too, I threw in laundry before I left for work, made the kids' lunches the night before, always had a pot of coffee ready when she woke up.

The biggest problem I have when SAHM's get on the defensive is that the language all of a sudden turns into absolutes...always, never, everything, nothing. It reeks of martyrdom, victimhood, and quite frankly undermines any sympathy towards how hard they do actually work. Along with that, the language of absolutes also trivializes and minimized the contribution of the working parent, when it ultimately boils down to the families entire way of life, the entire house of cards is built on their job.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I'll speak from my PERSONAL perception.
> 
> My wife and I don't do the whole....who's role is this...crap.
> 
> ...


Now this is how it should work. Good for you two for doing this well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Actually, no. I did not refuse to do any of that when my wife refused to have sex with me. Funny how that works.


Do you know why it works that way? It's because chores do not equal sex.

Your chores are your responsibility. If she walked out the door and never came back, you would still have to do those chores and more. She does not owe you sex for you doing them.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I'll speak from my PERSONAL perception.
> 
> My wife and I don't do the whole....who's role is this...crap.
> 
> ...


I agree that you need to do what works for you and your M. The study is a bulk study that may not apply to everyone. For me, I make the kids and my lunches most of the time, because I know my wife hates doing it. I won't fold towels, because I will not ever again accept being yelled at for not doing a chore 'correctly' (a whole other discussion with a nominally happy ending).

Thanks for posting, because you are bringing reality to the issue.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

The biggest misperception running around this thread is that the cause and effect runs both positive AND negative....it doesn't. It only has an effect in the negative.

If I don't do my fair share around the house....my wife will not respect me as much, will build resentment etc....IE, I'll get less sex because I've become a man she doesn't find attractive. There is a DIRECT...3 step....correlation.

BUT...If I do my fair share of the housework....it's not going to lead to her being MORE turned on....that is status quo. That is what it SHOULD be. It's just like if your wife normally makes dinner and she makes you a hot dog with chips, you're not going to be like "WOW, what an amazing meal"...it's status quo....it's the norm. There will be no positive or negative outcome.

If you do MORE housework, it won't lead to a positive outcome because then the wife can possibly assume the typically male stance of taking it for granted and again....NOT respecting or finding the husband any more attractive.

A fair and equal balance is required for happiness.

When things are done right...sexual attraction will ride on its OWN merits and requirements. Housework isn't "sexy".

Now don't get me wrong. It CAN be sexy in spurts. As in, if my wife travels for work, I make sure she comes home to our boys fully taken care of with no issues hanging and a spotless house (the time we would be having sex gets used to do housework LOL). When she comes home, she's always stunned (that I could handle it all (and as she'll begrudgingly admit) and better than her) and appreciative. We've missed each other so, because the house is clean etc., we get to spend the next few nights making up for lost time sexually. But I'm not going to take on an undo amount of housework on a regular basis, just like I wouldn't expect her to.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I usually tell youngsters just in the beginning of their marriage/family - when BOTH members work full-time jobs - to get a posterboard and two markers, have someone write out all the things that have to get done, and then take turns writing your name beside the chore you are willing to do, on down the list, until all things are accounted for. Eventually all things - even those NObody wants to do - will be accounted for. Some things will be daily, some will be monthly, some will take 5 minutes, some will take 5 hours. But typically, it works out fairly fairly. Thus you enter into an agreement of responsibilities and there's no 'I don't feel like it' because you have both agreed UP FRONT what you'll be responsible for. And once it's done, it's hard to try to get out of it or slack off.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

norajane said:


> I thought about this. I guess where it falls apart for me is that I don't consider sex a responsibility. I consider it a pleasure.
> 
> I don't have sex to try to get someone to do chores; I have sex because I'm into my partner and he treats me well. I don't think of sex as a chore. I don't think of sex as something I do for him. I think of it as something fun we do together because we enjoy each other.
> 
> If I ever thought of sex in terms of the daily grind of chores and responsibilities, if sex felt like a chore and was treated like a chore by either of us, if sex were equated to chores, that means sex stopped being a pleasure and the relationship was in serious trouble.



I never heard this concept before TaM. This sex as a doggie treat thing. Sex shouldn't be a reward for xyz but should be a part of the intimacy of marriage. The needs list needs to be divided fairly but they are pretty much two separate discussions


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

The other weird dynamic to this that I believe you get negative credit when you just do something after your wife nags you to do it. You are better off ignoring the thing she is nagging you about and doing something completely different that also serves the household. That way you send a message that you are a contributor, but you are not subservient to her.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

turnera said:


> I usually tell youngsters just in the beginning of their marriage/family - when BOTH members work full-time jobs - to get a posterboard and two markers, have someone write out all the things that have to get done, and then take turns writing your name beside the chore you are willing to do, on down the list, until all things are accounted for. Eventually all things - even those NObody wants to do - will be accounted for. Some things will be daily, some will be monthly, some will take 5 minutes, some will take 5 hours. But typically, it works out fairly fairly. Thus you enter into an agreement of responsibilities and there's no 'I don't feel like it' because you have both agreed UP FRONT what you'll be responsible for. And once it's done, it's hard to try to get out of it or slack off.



This is what I have done as well and never been an issue through one wife, one roomate and now one live in GF


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> I will say this up front...I was the husband of a SAHM, and our situation was not the typical one trotted out where the SAHM did "EVERTHING". I worked full time, spent four hours, yes you read that right, four hours commuting every day for work so that she could have the house she wanted. I was an engaged father. My typical day was me getting home around 6:00 pm and immediately running kids around to various activities until around 9:00 pm when I would get back home and eat a reheated meal alone because they had all eaten earlier. My ex wife then had the gall to complain that I never cooked, never ate with them, never did anything, and how hard it was for her because I got to come home from work while she was at work 24/7 and never got any time off...she was full of sh1t too. I got up in the middle of the night with the kids too, I threw in laundry before I left for work, made the kids' lunches the night before, always had a pot of coffee ready when she woke up.
> 
> The biggest problem I have when SAHM's get on the defensive is that the language all of a sudden turns into absolutes...always, never, everything, nothing. It reeks of martyrdom, victimhood, and quite frankly undermines any sympathy towards how hard they do actually work. Along with that, the language of absolutes also trivializes and minimized the contribution of the working parent, when it ultimately boils down to the families entire way of life, the entire house of cards is built on their job.


That's another problem, your wife was not appreciating your input, for whatever reason. That's something to be worked out between two of you. Words like always and never usually do not give relationship much favor.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Funny, that those things work in other direction too. The only thing around the house that my uncle did was vaccuming, and tea/coffe. that's it. But when they divorced, all of the sudden he learnt how to cook (sometime better then mom according to their grown up kids), clean, everything. Because he had to. I could not believe it


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Anon1111 said:


> The other weird dynamic to this that I believe you get negative credit when you just do something after your wife nags you to do it. You are better off ignoring the thing she is nagging you about and doing something completely different that also serves the household. That way you send a message that you are a contributor, but you are not subservient to her.


As a wife of someone who does this exact thing.... it is the most annoying crap he can pull. If I ask you to do the dishes and you instead clean the shed, don't expect me to be happy about it. 

Doing your job in the home is not being subservient, it's being a grown up. What makes a man subservient is letting it get to the nagging to begin with. Do it before it gets to that point and it's manly, make her have to point it out and remind you and ask you again and she's your Mother.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Last night after work my spouse stayed home with our toddler so I could take our pre-teen to the movies. When I came home, the house was still clean, and dinner had been cooked and was hot and ready and waiting for us. We did end up having a nice night together where I initiated sex... however that wasn't a "reward" for his "good boy" behaviours. First, I like sex. Second it's a matter of practicality.

However, had I instead came home to a messy house, an un-fed, cranky toddler and no dinner at 8:00 p.m. things would have turned out differently. 

Instead of being able to come home, eat, relax, put the kids to bed and then settle into some alone time with my spouse I would have had to run around cooking, cleaning, calming an upset and hungry toddler and trying to get the kids in bed, then unwind before going to bed tired myself. 

It was just courtesy on his end and a little foresight. He knew I'd be late getting home and have to get the kids in bed soon so he lightened the burden/free'd up time which made it possible for us to spend more quality time together even though I got home late. 

To us it's just common sense. The reason he cooked/cleaned for us is the same reason I try to get the majority of housework done during the day. We eat the frogs first (get the grunt work out of the way) so that there's more time to just enjoy each other, the kids and then our alone time together. This just enables more time for intimacy/sex and overall bonding/quality time.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

norajane said:


> To me, household chores are a baseline. They have to be done and they are the responsibility of both people in the household.
> 
> It's not going to turn me on if my partner does his fair share. But it will turn me off if he doesn't do his fair share.
> 
> Put it all on me, and not only will I resent the hell out of him and not want sex with him, I wouldn't want to live with him at all. If I have to do everything, I'd rather live alone.





Hicks said:


> To me, sex is a baseline. It has to be done and it is the responsibility of both people in the household.
> 
> It's not going to cause me to want to do housework if my partner does her fair share. But it will turn me off to the idea of housework if she doesn't do her fair share.
> 
> Put it all on me, and not only will I resent the hell out of her and not want to do household chores, I would not want to live with her at all. If I have to have sex with myself, I'd rather live alone.


Read all posts so far, turns out it's summed up well in these two posts.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

The latest page has brought up an issue related to boundaries for respect. I'd like to focus on the towel folding and cleaning up after the news issues. I'm afraid I won't touch the ignoring a nag with a ten foot pole.

For some reason female attraction is more closely tied to respect than to appreciation. Respect requires having some boundaries. A boundary can be I will watch the news. or This towel fits on the shelf therefore it is folded. or I don't eat broccoli. Whatever as long as there is a stopping point. Probably the stopping point should come before I won't do something you will just yell at me over. 

Women need men to have boundaries. It is an attraction language, not a love language.

Now there is a side issue here. When a person is offended it is because they choose to be offended. It is not as automatic as it is made out. What I'm saying is that I could say that my wife offends me by her lower interest in sex. I can even come up with some pretty good excuses for why I should be offended. Or, I can choose not to let that offend me. I can even come up with valid reasons why I shouldn't be offended. Why do I bring this up? The woman who huffs off to start the chore before the news is Choosing to be offended. She is voluntarily introducing resentment into her marriage. 

I am a bit cautious about introducing this idea because some will say he is making a campaign of my resentment. We have discussed many extreme cases right on this thread. So sure your ability to choose not to be offended can be pushed to some sort of limit. I want you to feel justified in extreme cases. I also want you to be sure it really is an extreme case. 

MN


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> The other weird dynamic to this that I believe you get negative credit when you just do something after your wife nags you to do it. You are better off ignoring the thing she is nagging you about and doing something completely different that also serves the household. That way you send a message that you are a contributor, but you are not subservient to her.


Or you could be like my husband who, when I ask him to do something I can't or don't know how to do, looks me in the eyes, says not a word, and either goes to sit and sleep on the couch or goes outside and works on some random project that has nothing to do with running our household, like, say, digging a little river in the woods behind our house, just to prove he's not subservient to me. *sigh*


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Nail said:


> For some reason female attraction is more closely tied to respect than to appreciation.


If you read Harley's stuff, you'll find that, generally speaking, this is universal. One of men's typical top 3 Emotional Needs is Admiration. Respect isn't usually actually listed as an EN, but it manifests in many other top ENs for women.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

turnera said:


> Or you could be like my husband who, when I ask him to do something I can't or don't know how to do, looks me in the eyes, says not a word, and either goes to sit and sleep on the couch or goes outside and works on some random project that has nothing to do with running our household, like, say, digging a little river in the woods behind our house, just to prove he's not subservient to me. *sigh*


And then starts thread about LD wife, lol?


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## JASON56 (Aug 28, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> Last night after work my spouse stayed home with our toddler so I could take our pre-teen to the movies. When I came home, the house was still clean, and dinner had been cooked and was hot and ready and waiting for us. We did end up having a nice night together where I initiated sex... however that wasn't a "reward" for his "good boy" behaviours. First, I like sex. Second it's a matter of practicality.
> 
> However, had I instead came home to a messy house, an un-fed, cranky toddler and no dinner at 8:00 p.m. things would have turned out differently.
> 
> ...


Even though you say it wasn't a reward it really was..its one of those un-spoken rewards, he knows it and you know it, but nothing is said.
if you had came home to a clean house, but no supper, and he had ate.. then there would be no reward...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> As a wife of someone who does this exact thing.... it is the most annoying crap he can pull. If I ask you to do the dishes and you instead clean the shed, don't expect me to be happy about it.
> 
> Doing your job in the home is not being subservient, it's being a grown up. What makes a man subservient is letting it get to the nagging to begin with. Do it before it gets to that point and it's manly, make her have to point it out and remind you and ask you again and she's your Mother.


The point is that spouses should not be ordering each other around. It's pretty basic. Nobody is making you nag-- you choose to do it. It's disrespectful behavior and does not merit a response.

Now, I understand if you think you do too much for your spouse. If that is the case, just stop doing so much. This is completely reasonable. But it is different from trying to order another person around.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> I will say this up front...I was the husband of a SAHM, and our situation was not the typical one trotted out where the SAHM did "EVERTHING". I worked full time, spent four hours, yes you read that right, four hours commuting every day for work so that she could have the house she wanted. I was an engaged father. My typical day was me getting home around 6:00 pm and immediately running kids around to various activities until around 9:00 pm when I would get back home and eat a reheated meal alone because they had all eaten earlier. My ex wife then had the gall to complain that I never cooked, never ate with them, never did anything, and how hard it was for her because I got to come home from work while she was at work 24/7 and never got any time off...she was full of sh1t too. I got up in the middle of the night with the kids too, I threw in laundry before I left for work, made the kids' lunches the night before, always had a pot of coffee ready when she woke up.
> 
> The biggest problem I have when SAHM's get on the defensive is that the language all of a sudden turns into absolutes...always, never, everything, nothing. It reeks of martyrdom, victimhood, and quite frankly undermines any sympathy towards how hard they do actually work. Along with that, the language of absolutes also trivializes and minimized the contribution of the working parent, when it ultimately boils down to the families entire way of life, the entire house of cards is built on their job.


I understand completely. I have, at one time or another, heard the never, everything, nothing. It was not very often. My W, in her mind, looked at SAHM as her job. She attacked it as such. I did the 12 plus hour shifts with a hour commute each way. I bathed our kids when I got home. Cooked, cleaned and help around the house. By and large, my W never played the victim card. She appreciated me busting my hump, keeping up with the bills and stressing from work related problems. I never felt trivial. From time to time I needed to reminder her that busting my hump does provide the life we have. Some months robbing Peter to pay Paul. Making it work. Once she asked to handle the bills. After 4 weeks she dropped them in my lap and said she cannot handle it. No worries. She got an idea of one aspect of my routine from month to month that is a pain. I got a taste of her daily grind by my own chosing.


I have performed many of her daily tasks. I know what she had to deal with everyday. In doing so I do my best to help her get through the day. Cook, clean, switch a load of laundry or run an errand. She understand how bill go and does her best to keep to budget. Looks to save where she can. Keeps on our kids to mind leaving lights on, etc.

I think once you really see what roll and chores the other has to handle daily helping each other becomes second nature.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

JASON56 said:


> Even though you say it wasn't a reward it really was..its one of those un-spoken rewards, he knows it and you know it, but nothing is said.
> if you had came home to a clean house, but no supper, and he had ate.. then there would be no reward...


No, it wasn't reward per se. She didn't reward her husband for dinner and clean house and happy kids. She felt good and she wanted to be intimate with her husband, who is responsible husband and father, very sexy traits.
Actions speak louder than words. some ome actions have positive consequences. 

You can say all you want "I love you honey" while sitting on the couch when she is doing the dishes, it won't have the same effect when you say it once while doing dishes with her.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> SAHM do not work harder than working mothers. Why? Because working mothers come home at 5 (or whenever) and still have to work.. taking car of children, around the house, the yard, shopping, etc, just as much as SAHMs do.


Elegirl...SAHM never leave their job. It is 24/7. You clock out out at 5. That day of maybe working hard or surfing the net at your desk ends at 5. Ok, you go home to cooking, cleaning and kids. SAHM is not clocking out at 5. She is cooking, cleaning and kids. 

I do not see any sense or logic in belittling SAHM because that is all she does.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Actions speak louder than words. some ome actions have positive consequences.
> 
> You can say all you want "I love you honey" while sitting on the couch when she is doing the dishes, it won't have the same effect when you say it once while doing dishes with her.


....or doing dishes FOR her.

Better yet, get the kids to do it as part of THEIR responsibilities!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

JASON56 said:


> Even though you say it wasn't a reward it really was..its one of those un-spoken rewards, he knows it and you know it, but nothing is said.
> if you had came home to a clean house, but no supper, and he had ate.. then there would be no reward...


The thing is, we all start OUT rewarding each other - meeting each other's top Emotional Needs. Because it makes us happy to see our spouse happy. And then life and reality set in and we let it all lapse. So when the other person takes a step like this, it warms our heart, and we remember what it was like back when we were like this all the time, and want to have some cuddle time to reconnect.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> Elegirl...SAHM never leave their job. It is 24/7. You clock out out at 5. That day of maybe working hard or surfing the net at your desk ends at 5. Ok, you go home to cooking, cleaning and kids. SAHM is not clocking out at 5. She is cooking, cleaning and kids.
> 
> I do not see any sense or logic in belittling SAHM because that is all she does.


The working parent's job is also 24/7, they just change hats in the middle of the day.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> No, running the house is not a female need. Not when the woman is working full time. When both spouses are working full time, household chores are the responsibility of both spouses.
> 
> This is what many men seem to not get.


By and large many boys and girls grew up in gender rolls as provided by their own parents, news and media(Leave it to Beaver June Cleaver). This gender roll is slowly disappearing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WandaJ said:


> She didn't reward her husband for dinner and clean house and happy kids. *She felt good* and she *wanted to be intimate* with her husband


Exactly.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Elegirl...SAHM never leave their job. It is 24/7. You clock out out at 5. That day of maybe working hard or surfing the net at your desk ends at 5. Ok, you go home to cooking, cleaning and kids. SAHM is not clocking out at 5. She is cooking, cleaning and kids.
> 
> I do not see any sense or logic in belittling SAHM because that is all she does.


same for working mother - she comes back from work and had to do all those things that SAHM does during the day. It's not like working mother comes home to sit on the couch.

I've done both. It is harder now and more stresfull but being SAHM was for me very depressing time.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> The working parent's job is also 24/7, they just change hats in the middle of the day.


You can shake off work and leave it behind until the next day. As far as the second hat of home, kids, bills and chores.....you help create it. You get to take care of it. Its called life. 

I don't know about the rest of the crowd here but I help cook, clean and be a part of my kids life because I wanted to. I did not take the posture of I work 24/7 whoa is me. I help create it. I get to help care for it.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> same for working mother - she comes back from work and had to do all those things that SAHM does during the day. It's not like working mother comes home to sit on the couch.
> 
> I've done both. It is harder now and more stresfull but being SAHM was for me very depressing time.


Working dad here does not sit on the couch....my choice. Helping my W is one good way to spend time together. My W worked outside the home as well. We shared chores. Still do but we can afford to have W be a SAHM. I still currently help when I get home. It is a great way to connect. Sitting on the lounger with paper and pipe not so much.

I can and do understand were you are coming from. I do both.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> You can say all you want "I love you honey" while sitting on the couch when she is doing the dishes, it won't have the same effect when you say it once while doing dishes with her.


Amen.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> You can shake off work and leave it behind until the next day. As far as the second hat of home, kids, bills and chores.....you help create it. You get to take care of it. Its called life.
> 
> I don't know about the rest of the crowd here but I helped cook, clean and be a part of my kids life because I wanted to. I did not take the posture of I work 24/7 whoa is me. I help create it. I get to help care for it.


Yep, and neither the working, nor SAH parent should be put on any kind of pedistal. Neither is more valuable or important than the other...all too often however, the SAH parent is pedistalized and they shouldn't be.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Anon1111 said:


> The point is that spouses should not be ordering each other around. It's pretty basic. Nobody is making you nag-- you choose to do it. It's disrespectful behavior and does not merit a response.
> 
> Now, I understand if you think you do too much for your spouse. If that is the case, just stop doing so much. This is completely reasonable. But it is different from trying to order another person around.


The problem comes in when it's tasks that NEED to be done. Someone has to, you don't have the choice to have neither of you do it.

Nagging means different things for different people. How long did she ask nicely and communicate her needs to you before it got to where you feel it's nagging? How is it not disrespectful to ignore her?
So it basically goes like this
"Hun, I'm really over worked lately. I need you to pick up some of this work"
"Ok, I'll take over dishes"
.....he doesn't do it, days go by
"Hun.... remember when we talked about the dishes?"
"Oh, right. I'll start doing them"
.... he doesn't do it, days go by 
"H, we discussed this and I need you to do the dishes!"
"[email protected] it woman, how dare you nag me!!! That is disrespectful and doesn't merit a response. Now it's all YOUR fault I am not doing the dishes!!!"


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

JASON56 said:


> Even though you say it wasn't a reward it really was..its one of those un-spoken rewards, he knows it and you know it, but nothing is said.
> if you had came home to a clean house, but no supper, and he had ate.. then there would be no reward...


It's not a reward. It's a by product....very different things.

Husband and wife want to have a sexual relationship. In a vacuum, they'd have sex everyday...but life is the opposite of a vacuum. Personal feelings, physical tiredness, other requirements all can, and usually do, interfere with sex.

What she was saying is that because her husband did that stuff, it removed those obstacles that can happen. It didn't click in her head...."you washed the dishes....you deserve a BJ". LOL

It clicked in her head "wow, here we are, snuggling on the couch, all the kids are in bed, there's no chores needed to do...hmmmm....wink wink nudge nudge".


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Yep, and neither the working, nor SAH parent should be put on any kind of pedistal. Neither is more valuable or important than the other...all too often however, the SAH parent is pedistalized and they shouldn't be.


Who is putting SAHM on a pedestal? I know of no one that puts a SAH parent on a pedestal. Personally, I find SAH dull.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

We both work and the kids are in college but in the good old days she did cooking and cleaning and I did house maintenance - not an easy task in a McMansion - landscaping - in itself a career due to sheer size - and anything child related, doctor appointments, college visits, piano, Kumon... Also paid all bills and did shopping and errands. 

It's simply a division of labor and sex had nothing to do with it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> You can shake off work and leave it behind until the next day. As far as the second hat of home, kids, bills and chores.....you help create it. You get to take care of it. Its called life.
> 
> I don't know about the rest of the crowd here but I help cook, clean and be a part of my kids life because I wanted to. I did not take the posture of I work 24/7 whoa is me. I help create it. I get to help care for it.


that's how it should be, unfortunately that's not always the case.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> that's how it should be, unfortunately that's not always the case.


It does go both ways.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> Who is putting SAHM on a pedestal? I know of no one that puts a SAH parent on a pedestal. Personally, I find SAH dull.


Just ask any of the working moms who have had to put up with being looked down upon as lesser mothers, made to feel guilty for abandoning their kids, been subject to the same 24/7 vs getting to come home rhetoric...in other words, placing a higher value on the SAHM than the working mom...that is pedistalizing.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

john117 said:


> We both work and the kids are in college but in the good old days she did cooking and cleaning and I did house maintenance - not an easy task in a McMansion - landscaping - in itself a career due to sheer size - and anything child related, doctor appointments, college visits, piano, Kumon... Also paid all bills and did shopping and errands.
> 
> It's simply a division of labor and sex had nothing to do with it.


Sex, getting it or not, never entered the picture in my situation either. Labor was divided.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> You can shake off work and leave it behind until the next day. As far as the second hat of home, kids, bills and chores.....you help create it. You get to take care of it. Its called life.
> 
> I don't know about the rest of the crowd here but I help cook, clean and be a part of my kids life because I wanted to. I did not take the posture of I work 24/7 whoa is me. I help create it. I get to help care for it.


He's not saying that. What he's saying is the common argument is SAHM's work 24/7...and through that statement it's implied that the working parent DOESN'T. In reality...EVERY parent (in healthy marriages) works 24/7.

In my first marriage, I'd come home and get "I did that last 12 hours...you get the next 12"....from my exW who was a SAHM.....so it's not all equal.....


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Just ask any of the working moms who have had to put up with being looked down upon as lesser mothers, made to feel guilty for abandoning their kids, been subject to the same 24/7 vs getting to come home rhetoric...in other words, placing a higher value on the SAHM than the working mom...that is pedistalizing.


I guess it depends on where you look. I do not spend my time with folks that glorify or belittle others. However, I have read and heard this rhetoric. We are a both parent working society. In my neck of the woods this is the status quo. 

On the flip side, my W sometimes feels she is lesser because she does not work outside the home. There are two sides to every story.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> He's not saying that. What he's saying is the common argument is SAHM's work 24/7...and through that statement it's implied that the working parent DOESN'T. In reality...EVERY parent (in healthy marriages) works 24/7.
> 
> In my first marriage, I'd come home and get "*I did that last 12 hours...you get the next 12*"....from my exW who was a SAHM.....so it's not all equal.....


And the ever popular..."Where's MY me time?" as if I spent every day at the bar or on the golf course, instead of oh, I don't know...working?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Dad&Hubby said:


> He's not saying that. What he's saying is the common argument is SAHM's work 24/7...and through that statement it's implied that the working parent DOESN'T. In reality...EVERY parent (in healthy marriages) works 24/7.
> 
> In my first marriage, I'd come home and get "I did that last 12 hours...you get the next 12"....from my exW who was a SAHM.....so it's not all equal.....


And I'm not saying that either. You leave you job. That's it for the day. Hat number two for the day is cooking, cleaning and kids. A hat I would hope many like to wear. Some don't. Should have thought of that before creating the mess. SAHM has one hat. That hat never changes. Same old day in and day out. 

I heard that...I had them all day crap. Your turn. Lasted one day.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Just ask any of the working moms who have had to put up with being looked down upon as lesser mothers, made to feel guilty for abandoning their kids, been subject to the same 24/7 vs getting to come home rhetoric...in other words, placing a higher value on the SAHM than the working mom...that is pedistalizing.


I think this is a societal issue. Working mothers get put down, and so do SAHM's, just from different aspects of our society. It's one of the dynamics women have to deal with that men don't.

Women, as mothers, are expected to be the better parent, always there for their kids, ideally being a SAHM. But also women, as strong liberated individuals, are expected to NOT be tied down by apron strings, to contribute to society in medicine, the sciences, business etc. just as much as men, etc. etc. It's the dichotomy of womanhood, and there's no right answer across the board. Every woman will be judged (unfairly) based on her decisions. If a woman wants to be career oriented..."traditionalists" will judge her. If a woman wants to be a SAHM...she'll be judged as well from the opposite end of the spectrum. It's a no win. All women can do is find the role that they feel the most productive with and content with and ignore the naysayers (regardless what that role is).

Men don't get that same judgement.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> And the ever popular..."Where's MY me time?" as if I spent every day at the bar or on the golf course, instead of oh, I don't know...working?


Where is her "me" time?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

It would appear this thread has turned to bashing and belittle SAHM.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> Where is her "me" time?


My exwife had a lot more "me time" than I ever did. I worked to pay the bills, then came home and was dad. She was home while I worked as mom and then would go out 1-2 times a week. I didn't play one round of golf during our entire marriage.

Now, that was MY fault, not hers. I allowed that dynamic...but as a working dad who dearly loved his kids, I relished all my time with them (when I wasn't working).

I even brought my eldest to work (when he was an only child) because my ex-wife "couldn't handle him anymore today".....:smthumbup: such a winner. She made herself out to be mother of the year when it suited her....anyway...I digress. MY exwife SAHM experiences aren't the norm. I'm not going to put that scenario on other SAHMs (like my step mom was) who are AWESOME at what they do.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> It would appear this thread has turned to bashing and belittle SAHM.



Not really - but SAHM is as easy or as difficult as you make it. I absolutely loved raising my girls - largely alone - and sacrificed a lot of money to stay with one company for decades to allow me flex time or work from home etc. 

But I made it easy.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> I guess it depends on where you look. I do not spend my time with folks that glorify or belittle others. However, I have read and heard this rhetoric. We are a both parent working society. In my neck of the woods this is the status quo.
> 
> On the flip side, my W sometimes feels she is lesser because she does not work outside the home. There are two sides to every story.


It is part of so called "mommy's wars". I do not really understand it, some of us choose one way or the other, some of us do not really have a choice, do what they have to.

I know that for me - as stresful as it is to be working mother, I prefer it to SAHM.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> Where is her "me" time?


Same place as mine...when ever she was willing to take care of things, so I didn't have to, just like the times I took care of things so she didn't have to.

As has been pointed out already, the time the working parent spends working, the same time the SAHP spends should be a wash...equal...cancel each other out, and it does if both partners are carrying their weight. The time both are home, often in the late afternoon, evening and night chores should be split equitably and done in a way that makes sense. Neither have a claim to a break based on what they did all day. It should be out of caring for your partner, and for the good of the relationship, and both partners should give equally.

Unfortunately, my ex wife never did see it that way.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Same place as mine...when ever she was willing to take care of things, so I didn't have to, just like the times I took care of things so she didn't have to.
> 
> As has been pointed out already, the time the working parent spends working, the same time the SAHP spends should be a wash...equal...cancel each other out, and it does if both partners are carrying their weight. The time both are home, often in the late afternoon, evening and night chores should be split equitably and done in a way that makes sense. Neither have a claim to a break based on what they did all day. It should be out of caring for your partner, and for the good of the relationship, and both partners should give equally.


Good post!


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

JASON56 said:


> Even though you say it wasn't a reward it really was..its one of those un-spoken rewards, he knows it and you know it, but nothing is said.
> if you had came home to a clean house, but no supper, and he had ate.. then there would be no reward...


Not sure about your circumstances but we have a very good sex-life with an average of 4 times per week and I initiate at least once a week, usually average about twice. So there is no need for anyone to make covert contracts to get sex here, we both like to give it and receive pleasure from the other...actually I tend to be greedier than him in terms of orgasm expectation. Like Lay's potato chips, you can't have just one. My spouse is thoughtful outside of the bedroom and very generous in it. 

I think it's common sense for the spouse that is at home at the moment - when the other is not to do the things around the house that need to be done. Dinner, dinner dishes, feeding and bathing our toddler all needed to be done whether by me or by him. Since he was home, he did them... he is the father after all and an adult who lives here. 

As a result of him doing them, I didn't have to do them when I got home late (late for us as the kids go to bed at 8:30 and 9:00 respectively). I also go to bed early around 10 - 10:30. We all have to get up around 7:00. Basically he kept things on schedule in my absence. Had I been home all evening instead of going out, all of the chores would have been done one way or the other and we probably would of had sex.

I think your way of looking at things is very cynical... that doesn't marsh well with my mellow.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> It would appear this thread has turned to bashing and belittle SAHM.


haven't noticed there were few guys complaining. The problems with being SAHM is that you are surrounded by kids all day long, and long for normal, adult company. I never got chance to miss my kids, I was always with them! In this situation it is sometimes easy to forget that your hubby wasn't on the beach the whole day either. Those moms need their breakes from the house and kids, that's for sure, but it has to be arranged in a manner respectful to both.

And actually many of the SAHM will admit later on that they were doing it when kids were smaller. It sounds like funny anecdotes five or ten year later, but I think the time when there are small kids in the house that need attention 24/7 is very trying on the marriage.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

JASON56 said:


> Even though you say it wasn't a reward it really was..its one of those un-spoken rewards, he knows it and you know it, but nothing is said.
> if you had came home to a clean house, but no supper, and he had ate.. then there would be no reward...


If you insist on seeing it that way, add this layer on top. It is a reward they simultaneously give each other for being good partners and sharing the load. If the load is consistently uneven, then yes, there is less likely to be a reward for both of them, but it isn't done by the hard worker out of a sense of punishment to the freeloader, but because of lack of time or the inherent lack of respect emanating from the freeloader.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Just ask any of the working moms who have had to put up with being looked down upon as lesser mothers, made to feel guilty for abandoning their kids, been subject to the same 24/7 vs getting to come home rhetoric...in other words, placing a higher value on the SAHM than the working mom...that is pedistalizing.


This goes both ways though. I think it's silly on either side of the fence. I've been a college mother, a working mother am currently a SAH mother but will again go back to working. If you're working some women will judge you for "letting strangers (daycare centers/babysitters/nannies) raise your kids". 

If you're at home you get mocked for being a step-ford wife or financially vulnerable to a man or setting the feminist movement back a hundred years for not taking advantage of a career. You can't win either way so may as well just "do you".


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Men don't get that same judgement.


SAHD's definitely do get judged. We had our first when I was quite young. I had to go back to school when he was three months old as I wasn't very employable at the time.

My spouse stayed at home during the day to watch our youngest while I was at school. He DID still work nights (I don't know how but do appreciate that he did) and we switched off in the afternoon when I got home from school. 

Still, people who saw him during the day assumed that he sponged off of me and was at home. Not the case at all. In fact, he was the ONLY one bringing in income at the time. 

Ask him though and he'll say the same thing about not knowing how I managed school full-time with a newborn at home all night. We both sacrificed for each other's education. Later on I supported him financially and covered most of the bills so he could do his training... now 10 years later with child #2, I'm currently at home.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I work full time (from home), take care of kids and our business. We have home made dinner almost every day. Now, tell me if I am unreasonable or my husband is:

last night he comes back late, as usual. I do not expect him to cook, or do laundry, or even cleaning up the kitchen on weekday, his days are long already (although this is his choice, he is in charge of his schedule, and I asked him many times to cut it).

Do you know what he found offending? That I didn't serve his dinner on the plate, and did not put it in front of him. I just told him that there is meat in the oven, pasta in the pot. This was time to put kids to bed, and I was doing just that. Not mentioning I still had to clean the kitchen, and exchange his business paperwork for another day. Of course, his plate did not make it to the dishwasher.

He did not say a word to me today. Sure, we have a lot of other issues going on, and this is just cherry on top, but today there is pizza for dinner. no nice, grilled pork loin as yesterday. The incredible thing is that for the first eight year of our marriage, before we had kids, house chores were never an issue, we did most of the things together, split it, whoever came home first started on dinner. WTF happened?


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> It has been more or less proven that men who do more housework tend to get it less. They get it more if they do the manly chores, but not if they do 'traditional' womans work. Just saying.
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...EQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNGKCsw11F25YlfpzMGpr-SgMwF4-w


Anecdotal data. Even the little write up here uses words such as "suggests" and "appears". These types of "studies" prove nothing. An apparent correlation at best. The couples self-reported household chores and sexual frequency. Lots of room for error there, as well as inflating or deflating numbers depending on how each participant sees themselves. It is interesting, however, that they mention the brother-sister partner-type relationship. I've been in one iof those, and it's true, no passion there!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

I am a military spouse/ stay at home mom...they call me a "dependa" Yeah. I apparently use my H for insurance and money benefits. Here is a huge secret...H didn't have ANY money when we met. I didn't marry him 6 months after meeting him, like it seems some spouses do in the military community. We dated for a couple of years (even through one deployment) before I dove into this...crazy pool.

So for women with children, there really is a no win situation to make people happy and not have them judge you. Oh well. It bothers me way less now. 

Anyway back on subject. I may not go to work, but I do take care of everything here. I don't expect my H do to anything except take the truck in for an oil change every now and then. If he is deployed...obviously, I have to do it.

I don't equate chores with sex. H will sometimes do things around the house, but I certainly don't expect it. I have sex with him because I like it.... a lot. Even if we are fighting, I still do it because it pleases and benefits me (and him). I get something out of sex...a really nice set of orgasms. 

I have a schedule that allows me to have the kids in bed by 730pm. All of my chores are completed before that time. So, I really don't need H to do anything anyway. So, I have all night to hang out with him.

However, if my H started coming home and not involving himself with the kids at all - or going out with his friends constantly (drinking and being stupid), I would cut it off. I have zero tolerance for anyone being ignored for any reason.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> I work full time (from home), take care of kids and our business. We have home made dinner almost every day. Now, tell me if I am unreasonable or my husband is:
> 
> last night he comes back late, as usual. I do not expect him to cook, or do laundry, or even cleaning up the kitchen on weekday, his days are long already (although this is his choice, he is in charge of his schedule, and I asked him many times to cut it).
> 
> ...


It sounds like a few things are going on. I'm not familiar with your story but based on the info given here, I would not say you are being unreasonable. 

It sounds like although you both work together to run your business, since you work inside the home and he works outside of the home with unnecessarily long hours, you are a "work widow". 

I do think your husband needs to cut back on those hours if it's within his ability and won't hurt you guys financially. 

I cackled a little about the plating of his food/serving him at the table bit. I think that's a nice-to-do but not a requirement. When I'm feeling thoughtful towards my spouse or he's busy then I plate him some food or pour him a drink and bring it to him. However he doesn't _expect_ that from me. Typically I only plate the kids' meals. Though our oldest often does it for himself depending on what we're having. 

However, even if that's something you normally do for him, I don't think not doing it one time is worth a fuss. He should have seen that you were busy with the kids/chores and just gotten it himself. I do assume when writing this that his arms aren't' broken lol. Not talking to you all day long sounds passive aggressive. Especially over something so trivial.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

:lol:


turnera said:


> I usually tell youngsters just in the beginning of their marriage/family - when BOTH members work full-time jobs - to get a posterboard and two markers, have someone write out all the things that have to get done, and then take turns writing your name beside the chore you are willing to do, on down the list, until all things are accounted for. Eventually all things - even those NObody wants to do - will be accounted for. Some things will be daily, some will be monthly, some will take 5 minutes, some will take 5 hours. But typically, it works out fairly fairly. Thus you enter into an agreement of responsibilities and there's no 'I don't feel like it' because you have both agreed UP FRONT what you'll be responsible for. And once it's done, it's hard to try to get out of it or slack off.


I did this exact thing recently. My wife laughed at it saying it was childish. I put simple things on there like 

Getting coffee ready the night before... I wake up first so she thinks I should do that

Making breakfast. She takes lonbervto get herself ready... I should do that as well

Getting lunch ready for our daughter. My wife works now and leaves before me... I should do that too

Making sure there are no dirty dishes in the sink at bedtime. She states with our 10 year old until she falls asleep... So guess who does the night time dishes?

Morning dishes... Again, my wife leaves before me so I do that as well

Cooking.... Me again.... Sometimes I will put a roast in the slow cooker so most of it is ready whewwhhhhhhhaaatt?e

Laundry....she will wash a load if she runs out of something, otherwise they pile up.

Today, I got home at 6:45. The first thing she told me was..."guess what you forgot to do"?...wwhhhhhhhaaatt "You didn't take out the leftovers from the freezer"

She refuses to put her name on the chore list because she doesn't want to be responsible for anything at all...
For some crazy reason, she expects me to do everything.

The thing is... If she would leave today, all I need would be to view a kid sitter for 2 hours a day after school... She could even hang out with a friend... I don't need my wife anymore for anything.

Sorry... Just venting..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WandaJ said:


> WTF happened?


You spoiled him and he let you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Trickster said:


> She refuses to put her name on the chore list because she doesn't want to be responsible for anything at all...For some crazy reason, she expects me to do everything.


For some crazy reason, you keep DOING everything.

I tried to get my husband - on the advice of my IC - to pick JUST ONE CHORE to be responsible for. Just one. He refused. Said he didn't want to be 'responsible' for anything, he preferred just doing things when he felt like it (which was never, of course).

So I sat and stewed on it for awhile. I was SO hurt that he cared so little about me that he wouldn't take ONE chore off my hands, even though we both worked full time. So I decided to pick one chore FOR him. I stopped doing his laundry. What did I care if his clothes were dirty, if I had to do all the work?

So he started running out of clean clothes. After a couple weeks, he was out of clean everything. He blew up at me: how DARE I not do his laundry? I just shrugged and said 'I asked you to pick a chore to be responsible for. You refused. So I picked one for you.' He went and took care of some things; I did one load of laundry for him. He's a lot better now about typical chores. Because I taught him that I wasn't his maid. 

Time for you to stop being HER maid.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

WandaJ said:


> Do you know what he found offending? That I didn't serve his dinner on the plate, and did not put it in front of him. I just told him that there is meat in the oven, pasta in the pot. This was time to put kids to bed, and I was doing just that. Not mentioning I still had to clean the kitchen, and exchange his business paperwork for another day. Of course, his plate did not make it to the dishwasher.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

turnera said:


> For some crazy reason, you keep DOING everything.
> 
> 
> *yes... I do. My daughter has to eat. My daughter needs help to make her lunch. My daughter needs clean clothes.
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's easy. You make meals for two. You make your daughter's lunch. You make coffee for one and don't leave any for her. You stop doing her laundry. You take your daughter out for fun and leave her there. You pick up fast food just for you and your daughter. You wash YOUR dirty dishes and leave hers in the sink. You wash your pillow case and leave her dirty. YOU MAKE A POINT.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Coffee for one? That could work. I usually finish my 2 cups before she gets up. SShe buys the Starbucks instant coffee that she takes to work... I know she will use that instead of making coffee for herself....Although its expensive, that would be a small price to pay..

One time for dinner, I made egg sandwiches with bacon for dinner. I though it was delicious... Wasn't good enough for my wife, so she got Chinese take-out for just her...

You do know this will hurt me more than it does her....

I already do things with my daughter, like riding our bikes together and wife doesn't want to go with us anyway... 

I think I gave up too soon with the laundry...

She just started initiating sex and I had a moment of weakness.....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You realize, right, that women KNOW how to use sex to control men?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> You realize, right, that women KNOW how to use sex to control men?



It's a feedback loop that ultimately self corrects though if the man has any clue. Sex for control will be bad, then worse, then even worse then a simple value analysis and the whole thing comes crashing down.

It works a lot better if the man is desperate


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

turnera said:


> You realize, right, that women KNOW how to use sex to control men?


Only the men who allow that.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> I work full time (from home), take care of kids and our business. We have home made dinner almost every day. Now, tell me if I am unreasonable or my husband is:
> 
> last night he comes back late, as usual. I do not expect him to cook, or do laundry, or even cleaning up the kitchen on weekday, his days are long already (although this is his choice, he is in charge of his schedule, and I asked him many times to cut it).
> 
> ...


Have you pointed out the change and explained how that bothers you? Is he possibly harboring resentment for something ? If he did this now but didn't before it sounds like he is possibly angry about something and not being mature enough to either realize it or communicate about it


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> SAHD's definitely do get judged. We had our first when I was quite young. I had to go back to school when he was three months old as I wasn't very employable at the time.
> 
> My spouse stayed at home during the day to watch our youngest while I was at school. He DID still work nights (I don't know how but do appreciate that he did) and we switched off in the afternoon when I got home from school.
> 
> ...


Oh without a doubt, but SAHD's are almost universally panned (not that it's right, but that's a whole different issue). What I mean is women face a stronger force on both sides of the argument. Men....if you're a SAHD....you're generally looked down upon by all of society. So yes in some ways it's a harsher judgement. I simply mean that women face a constant pendulum.


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## JASON56 (Aug 28, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> No, it wasn't reward per se. She didn't reward her husband for dinner and clean house and happy kids. She felt good and she wanted to be intimate with her husband, who is responsible husband and father, very sexy traits.
> Actions speak louder than words. some ome actions have positive consequences.
> 
> You can say all you want "I love you honey" while sitting on the couch when she is doing the dishes, it won't have the same effect when you say it once while doing dishes with her.



I disagree.... she felt good and wanted to give him sex, because she got a hot meal and a clean house..it was a un-spoken reward..
lets see her give him sex, with coming home to a messy house and no supper...it not going to happen, no matter how sexy he is..


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Anecdotal data. Even the little write up here uses words such as "suggests" and "appears". These types of "studies" prove nothing. An apparent correlation at best. The couples self-reported household chores and sexual frequency. Lots of room for error there, as well as inflating or deflating numbers depending on how each participant sees themselves. It is interesting, however, that they mention the brother-sister partner-type relationship. I've been in one iof those, and it's true, no passion there!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There have been lots of studies on this, I don't have time to link them all, but they pretty much either show no link or a negative link. So ignore at your own risk. OTOH, you need to wo what is right in your own marriage.

IMO, they could be flawed, because the "nice guy" types skew the data.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> That's easy. You make meals for two. You make your daughter's lunch. You make coffee for one and don't leave any for her. You stop doing her laundry. You take your daughter out for fun and leave her there. You pick up fast food just for you and your daughter. You wash YOUR dirty dishes and leave hers in the sink. You wash your pillow case and leave her dirty. YOU MAKE A POINT.


I've thought about doing this for myself but I don't know how it will help. It doesn't take any less time for me to make a 4 cup pot of coffee than an 8 cup, the dinners I make are typically already portioned out in the freezer so his portion going in the same time as mine and the kids doesn't take any less time.... plus if he has to fend for himself he makes a HUGE mess in the kitchen (sauce running down my cabinet doors, on the floor, dishes all over the place, food left out and open all night, etc) I did stop his laundry and his personal messes and he eventually gets around to doing them but I still have 95% to his 5%. 

For me, it's not that enough to not be HIS maid, I need him to help clean the home that he shares and the mess that comes with being here/having kids. I've told him that to be a contributing member of the home and a partner to me, I should have _less _work to do than if I was alone. Right now I have more work, even if I had the same amount of work I feel like why should I bother. 

He'd also never trade sex for chores or be controlled with sex. I don't think there's really anything he cares about enough to work with. Funny, he prides himself on not being "p*ssy whipped". That is more important to him than being a man who doesn't need a Mommy.


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## JASON56 (Aug 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> The thing is, we all start OUT rewarding each other - meeting each other's top Emotional Needs. Because it makes us happy to see our spouse happy. And then life and reality set in and we let it all lapse. So when the other person takes a step like this, it warms our heart, and we remember what it was like back when we were like this all the time, and want to have some cuddle time to reconnect.


And once you do something or rewarding, and then you get sex...then the next time you don't meet her needs as you forgot hang that picture she wanted up...or there are dishes in the sink, that you didn't get to then she doesn't feel as good, no reward ...until you make her feel good again..its a pretty simple concept.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And what's wrong with that?

I was just having the exact same conversation with DD24 yesterday, only it was about her friend, who is fast becoming an EX-friend. She gives nothing, but expects everyone to keep showering her with attention and good things. She's pretty much all alone now. DD24 was the last person to keep including her, and just got burned, so guess what? Friend loses out on those benefits you get from being a friend.

Basically, it's human nature. If you want to have rewarding relationships, you have to put something in yourself.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

TBH - I am happy my W if a SAHM. The stress level was way too high right after our first was born. 

I know it hasn't allowed us all the toys and stuff, but the reduced stress is well worth it.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Only the men who allow that.


Love this.

I had a previous partner who tried to use sex and then would push the boundaries. I refused her sex every time she played that game and made it clear why we weren't having sex. The game playing ended QUICKLY, because she liked having sex with me as much as I did with her, so when she was horny and not "getting hers" because she had played her games.....the games ended.

An orgasm isn't more valuable than my self worth and integrity to me.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

turnera said:


> And what's wrong with that?


I think that you two are confusing needs and wants. You need to meet each others emotional needs (read love languages), however, chores are not love languages.

What J56 is saying is a covert contract in both directions, what Turnera is saying is that she needs her needs to be met to feel like she needs to meet her H's needs. Similar, but vastly different IMO. Turnera is in a circular needs you meet mine, I meet yours, building circle. J56 is a one time contract. Needs getting met, but totally different method.


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## JASON56 (Aug 28, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> Not sure about your circumstances but we have a very good sex-life with an average of 4 times per week and I initiate at least once a week, usually average about twice. So there is no need for anyone to make covert contracts to get sex here, we both like to give it and receive pleasure from the other...actually I tend to be greedier than him in terms of orgasm expectation. Like Lay's potato chips, you can't have just one. My spouse is thoughtful outside of the bedroom and very generous in it.
> 
> I think it's common sense for the spouse that is at home at the moment - when the other is not to do the things around the house that need to be done. Dinner, dinner dishes, feeding and bathing our toddler all needed to be done whether by me or by him. Since he was home, he did them... he is the father after all and an adult who lives here.
> 
> ...



You are programming his mind, if every time he does things for you there is sex that night..


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> I think that you two are confusing needs and wants. You need to meet each others emotional needs (read love languages), however,* chores are not love languages.*


Domestic Support

Domestic Support
_ Domestic support involves the creation of a peaceful and well-managed home environment. It includes cooking meals, washing dishes, washing and ironing clothes, house cleaning and child care. If you have the need for domestic support, when your spouse does some of these things, you feel very fulfilled, and when it is not done you feel very annoyed. _


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I've thought about doing this for myself but I don't know how it will help.


This isn't for doing longterm. It's what you do if your situation is untenable. It's how you make your point. If your partner refuses to shoulder half the burden, you say fine! Here's what it looks like when you HAVE to shoulder the burden for yourself. Have fun.

And you go off and take care of yourself and the rest of the people in your family. My IC actually told me to do this. She said 'you have to stop propping him up. Pull your support out from under him, stay busy taking care of yourself, and he'll have to make a choice: stand up on his own two feet (i.e. start owning his responsibilities) or fall flat on his face - at which point he will AGAIN face a choice: stay flat on the ground or again decide to stand up and face his responsibilities.

It only took me about 2 or 3 weeks before he had his come to Jesus moment. It shouldn't take that long for you guys, either. And once that moment happens, THEN you have to say 'here's how it is; I won't be your servant any longer; either you pull your own weight, or we'll be fine without you.'

A side benefit of doing this is proving to yourself, as the poster previously said, that you don't even really need that person, to be able to do just fine. Once you arm yourself with that knowledge, you'll have more 'power' in your relationship and can more easily negotiate for what you deserve.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> what Turnera is saying is that she needs her needs to be met to feel like she needs to meet her H's needs. Similar, but vastly different IMO. Turnera is in a circular needs you meet mine, I meet yours, building circle.


That is SO not what I said.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Domestic Support
> 
> Domestic Support
> _ Domestic support involves the creation of a peaceful and well-managed home environment. It includes cooking meals, washing dishes, washing and ironing clothes, house cleaning and child care. If you have the need for domestic support, when your spouse does some of these things, you feel very fulfilled, and when it is not done you feel very annoyed. _


Point taken...but wrong book  That is from His Needs, Her Needs.

5 Love Languages...Physical touch, quality time, words of affirmation, acts of service, gifts...


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

turnera said:


> That is SO not what I said.


okay, then what did you say? I took it as that is either what you have or want. My bad, I guess.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Love this.
> 
> I had a previous partner who tried to use sex and then would push the boundaries. I refused her sex every time she played that game and made it clear why we weren't having sex. The game playing ended QUICKLY, because she liked having sex with me as much as I did with her, so when she was horny and not "getting hers" because she had played her games.....the games ended.
> 
> An orgasm isn't more valuable than my self worth and integrity to me.


I just wonder how I have made it this far in life and just never experienced this level of manipulation by a woman save one time which I quickly **** down. Reading on TAM seems like they are everywhere. I wonder if I am just lucky or perhaps I just give off a vibe that says I won't tolerate that. Seems some peoples marriage and relationships are more like spy games than a marriage


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> This isn't for doing longterm. It's what you do if your situation is untenable. It's how you make your point. If your partner refuses to shoulder half the burden, you say fine! Here's what it looks like when you HAVE to shoulder the burden for yourself. Have fun.
> 
> And you go off and take care of yourself and the rest of the people in your family. My IC actually told me to do this. She said 'you have to stop propping him up. Pull your support out from under him, stay busy taking care of yourself, and he'll have to make a choice: stand up on his own two feet (i.e. start owning his responsibilities) or fall flat on his face - at which point he will AGAIN face a choice: stay flat on the ground or again decide to stand up and face his responsibilities.
> 
> ...


I could try again. I stopped quickly because him fending for himself was more mess and a lot of noise. Plus then it's all "where's the pots?" "Where's the wooden spoon?" "Where's the cream?" all while making a mess of my cabinets/drawers and fridge looking through them. 

I do know I'm fine without him, would be better in fact. He knows I know that and agrees and knows he would be screwed without me. It's gotten me some ground but as soon as he feels his dominance (not abusive) slipping, he finds a way to get it back. I'll learn eventually. Hopefully before I waste another 8 years.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> Point taken...but wrong book  That is from His Needs, Her Needs.
> 
> 5 Love Languages...Physical touch, quality time, words of affirmation, acts of service, gifts...


A need is a need. In 5LL it would fall under acts of service but I prefer HNHN because I think he covers more. 

So many times men who have a need for physical/sex forget that there are other EN that are just as or more important to their partner. They consider it trading chores for their NEED of sex rather than meeting each other's ENs so you both feel loved enough to keep meeting them.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I could try again. I stopped quickly because him fending for himself was more mess and a lot of noise. Plus then it's all "where's the pots?" "Where's the wooden spoon?" "Where's the cream?" all while making a mess of my cabinets/drawers and fridge looking through them.
> 
> I do know I'm fine without him, would be better in fact. He knows I know that and agrees and knows he would be screwed without me. It's gotten me some ground but as soon as he feels his dominance (not abusive) slipping, he finds a way to get it back. I'll learn eventually. Hopefully before I waste another 8 years.


I think its the same for me. In the morning, all my wife has to do is get herself ready for work and she has a hard time doing that. She just comes down to eat breakfast and then continues getting ready. I wash the dishes as well. I get our daughter up a little before my wife has to leave to work, and get her off to school.Even when my wife wasn't working over the Summer, I was doing the same routine.


My wife actually gets in the way in the morning getting her own lunch ready and panics because she runs out of time. I am shocked she hasn't asked me to make her lunch because she is too busy getting ready...


When my wife cooks dinner, I feel like I am punishing myself. She looks so awkward cooking and then seems mad all evening when she does cook....


The 6 weeks with no sex or affection, I didn't die.... If only i said no when she offered sex..


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I just wonder how I have made it this far in life and just never experienced this level of manipulation by a woman save one time which I quickly **** down. Reading on TAM seems like they are everywhere. I wonder if I am just lucky or perhaps I just give off a vibe that says I won't tolerate that. Seems some peoples marriage and relationships are more like spy games than a marriage


Haha, yeah. If you notice I said a relationship...and it didn't last long. I'm not staying in a relationship if it's like a 24/7 version of survivor (or insert any of those reality shows where you're constantly playing social games to "stay ahead"). 

My marriage right now isn't work. It's leisure and joy. I don't have to "work" with my wife. I don't have to watch things etc. We are both able to be each other.

I think the "vibe" thing is spot on. You have your radar set to look for things (even sub-consciously) and you set off a vibe that picks up on other peoples "radar".

It's why you hear other people asking the questions "Why do I always find the losers" "Why do I always find the druggies" "Why do I always find [insert negative behavior"...it's because they're tuned to be attracted to certain aspects of that type of person.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Trickster, Slowly, the point is that you have to decide at which point you're ready to make a change. I liken it to SuperNanny, who, when teaching parents how to create a real bedtime, has the parents put the kid in his bed. When he gets out of the bed, the parent puts him back. And again. And again. And again. It's basically a battle of wills; eventually, the kid is exhausted and falls asleep. There may be another night or two of the kid testing the parent's will, but it's never as bad as that first night. He eventually realizes he won't win this, and he WILL stay in that bed when he's put there. Is that first night hell for the parents? Sure. I've seen some kids who get up 50, 70, 100 times! But the parent HAS to be invested enough to make it work, to say 'this is hard work, but it will pay off.' 

At some point you have to say to yourself, I can't keep doing this for the rest of my life, it's time to take a stand; life will be difficult for a week or two while my spouse figures out I'm not going back, but they WILL figure it out. And we can stand anything for a week or two, even a month or two, to make a point.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> okay, then what did you say? I took it as that is either what you have or want. My bad, I guess.


Two people agree to go into a relationship for a myriad of reasons. Sex and chores are just microcosms in the grant scheme of things. Unless one of the two simply is 100% unwilling to provide for that one thing - in which case you'll probably decide this relationship isn't worth saving, each day is a balance of choices, words, actions, reactions, moods, events. You're gonna go to bed with your spouse whether he helps wash the dishes or not. The difference we're talking about is the LEVEL of pleasure involved in that day, that relationship, that night with or without sex. Him choosing to help me with the dishes helps me go to bed with a lighter 'air' about the home. Him choosing to sit on his ass while I do the dishes will also create an air, just not the one he wants. I flat out told my H that if he wanted sex that much, he'd better figure out how to ensure that other stuff around the house that matters to ME get done, because I simply won't be in the mood. Or else I'll be up til midnight taking CARE of all the stuff that matters to me since I have to do it all by myself, and he knows he won't be getting any at midnight, when I have to be up at 6am. I'm not telling him what to do, I'm telling him how life would be more amenable for him to get what he wants. Sex is his #1 priority, he knows it's not mine, so it's only logical for us to discuss what it would take for us both to be in better moods and to get what we want.

For instance, he knows I don't want sex but I'll do it; he knows I have chronic pain and that, if he gives me a backrub or a footrub, it relaxes me and gets me in a better mood to be willing to have sex. He doesn't HAVE to do it, but he knows that when he does, I feel like I'm getting what matters to me, so I feel more loving to him, knowing he cares enough, so I want to please him. We CAN succeed without that, we did for 30 years, but coming to this understanding has really improved things for us.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> It's why you hear other people asking the questions "Why do I always find the losers" "Why do I always find the druggies" "Why do I always find [insert negative behavior"...it's because they're tuned to be attracted to certain aspects of that type of person.


Also because they don't DUMP that person as soon as it happens. In fact, DD24's boyfriend just asked her why she has crappy friends. She said that she seeks out the good in everyone and tries to justify the bad, so she ends up ignoring the bad far longer than people should.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Cutting off the assistance for a lazy spouse is the right response. Take care of your own stuff and let him take care of his. Don't complain, don't nag. Actions, not words. This will accomplish a few things. 

1. He will realize how much you do for him.

2. He will be forced to do more for himself.

3. After adjusting, he will likely end up doing less for himself than you previously did for him. What this will reveal is how much what you have been fighting about is really a NEED vs. a want. 

In other words, part of the problem may be that your standards are too high. You will need to learn to allow him to do things his way and accept that his way is valid. If you insist on things being done 100% your way, you will never be satisfied unless you do it yourself. This is a control issue and the reason why many husbands withdraw from contributing-- the sense the they can never do it right, so why try.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

JASON56 said:


> I disagree.... she felt good and wanted to give him sex, because she got a hot meal and a clean house..it was a un-spoken coming home to a messy house and no supper...it not going to happen, no matter how sexy he is..


no, because all the adult responsibilities for that day were done, and they both still had time and energy to have some fun.

You are assuming women do not like sex, and looking for excuses. Most of us like it and want to have more.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Have you pointed out the change and explained how that bothers you? Is he possibly harboring resentment for something ? If he did this now but didn't before it sounds like he is possibly angry about something and not being mature enough to either realize it or communicate about it


We are going through turbulent times, so there are a lot of issues going on. Right now we are trying to stay away from each other paths.

It's not a pea under our sheets, it's a freaking watermelon.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

JASON56 said:


> And once you do something or rewarding, and then you get sex...then the next time you don't meet her needs as you forgot hang that picture she wanted up...or there are dishes in the sink, that you didn't get to then she doesn't feel as good, no reward ...until you make her feel good again..its a pretty simple concept.


I think Jason you are bitter about your marriage. But that's exactly because it does not work as supposed. You read the advice here and do not believe it works. It works if both sides are interested, and things didn't get too far for them to come back together to "us"


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

JASON56 said:


> You are programming his mind, if every time he does things for you there is sex that night..


You know Jason, I start thinking that there might be a reason you are not having much sex.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Ridiculously entertaining.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Hicks said:


> What if a man told his wife early on in the marriage that he expects sex 2x per week.


I wouldn't marry him! Seriously, if the marriage is not about mutual love and caring, but how many times per week. Just yuck. That is so unattractive.


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## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wouldn't marry him! Seriously, if the marriage is not about mutual love and caring, but how many times per week. Just yuck. That is so unattractive.


Interesting. I told my prospective wife the same thing. Because I never had this discussion with my ex-wife, and my expectation of how often we would have sex was WAY lower than hers, and after ten years (I guess give her credit for waiting that long) she just couldn't handle it. 

Now I'm in a more 'typical' relationship where I want it more than her, and we've come to an agreement about whats a decent compromise. It does mean that she needs to focus on it as my need, and yes, I need to sometimes put my own desire aside but not take it personally. 

I feel good we talked about it and came to an understanding about something that makes us both happy. I have another friend that had a similar problem; she had sex with her fiance like every few months. She can't do that again and her current boyfriend is aware. Though as far as I can tell since they are still new they are doing it like bunnies. LOL


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

turnera said:


> Two people agree to go into a relationship for a myriad of reasons. Sex and chores are just microcosms in the grant scheme of things. Unless one of the two simply is 100% unwilling to provide for that one thing - in which case you'll probably decide this relationship isn't worth saving, each day is a balance of choices, words, actions, reactions, moods, events. You're gonna go to bed with your spouse whether he helps wash the dishes or not. The difference we're talking about is the LEVEL of pleasure involved in that day, that relationship, that night with or without sex. Him choosing to help me with the dishes helps me go to bed with a lighter 'air' about the home. Him choosing to sit on his ass while I do the dishes will also create an air, just not the one he wants. I flat out told my H that if he wanted sex that much, he'd better figure out how to ensure that other stuff around the house that matters to ME get done, because I simply won't be in the mood. Or else I'll be up til midnight taking CARE of all the stuff that matters to me since I have to do it all by myself, and he knows he won't be getting any at midnight, when I have to be up at 6am. I'm not telling him what to do, I'm telling him how life would be more amenable for him to get what he wants. Sex is his #1 priority, he knows it's not mine, so it's only logical for us to discuss what it would take for us both to be in better moods and to get what we want.
> 
> For instance, he knows I don't want sex but I'll do it; he knows I have chronic pain and that, if he gives me a backrub or a footrub, it relaxes me and gets me in a better mood to be willing to have sex. He doesn't HAVE to do it, but he knows that when he does, I feel like I'm getting what matters to me, so I feel more loving to him, knowing he cares enough, so I want to please him. We CAN succeed without that, we did for 30 years, but coming to this understanding has really improved things for us.


I think I tried to convey what you wrote. You have/want a positive feedback loop in your marriage. You and H meet each others needs, which makes you feel good about your spouse, which makes you want to do things for them and repeat, all in a good way. It is not really transanctional, which is what I thought the other poster was saying. Sorry if I added confusion.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> no, because all the adult responsibilities for that day were done, and they both still had time and energy to have some fun.
> 
> You are assuming women do not like sex, and looking for excuses. Most of us like it and want to have more.


HAHA, yeah, one of the more common things my wife says...(post sex)

God damn it....we need to do this more often...I get so wrapped up with the baby that I forget how much I love and need this.

(we don't go more than a week without sex FYI) but sometimes it's just grabbing the other into the shower for a quickie.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

devotion said:


> Interesting. I told my prospective wife the same thing. Because I never had this discussion with my ex-wife, and my expectation of how often we would have sex was WAY lower than hers, and after ten years (I guess give her credit for waiting that long) she just couldn't handle it.
> 
> Now I'm in a more 'typical' relationship where I want it more than her, and we've come to an agreement about whats a decent compromise. It does mean that she needs to focus on it as my need, and yes, I need to sometimes put my own desire aside but not take it personally.
> 
> I feel good we talked about it and came to an understanding about something that makes us both happy. I have another friend that had a similar problem; she had sex with her fiance like every few months. She can't do that again and her current boyfriend is aware. Though as far as I can tell since they are still new they are doing it like bunnies. LOL


The notion of even KNOWING how many "times per week" one is going to want sex is foreign to me. Sometimes I'm on him like white on rice. Sometimes we have a week or two where we are busy. Sometimes I am ticked at him or he at me....


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> The notion of even KNOWING how many "times per week" one is going to want sex is foreign to me. Sometimes I'm on him like white on rice. Sometimes we have a week or two where we are busy. Sometimes I am ticked at him or he at me....


My wife and I focus on the "minimum" of once per week because of how strong of a connection we get from sex. We both realize that our relationship remains at its strongest when we are connecting physically and by ensuring once a week happens, we never "let life take over" and start to lose our connection. We both emotionally connect when we're physically connecting..

We're both more in love after a decade than we were in the beginning..so it's working.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Got it.

So is equal weight given to mowing the lawn and shovelling the driveway? 

Because in my experience the stuff that magically gets done outside of the house doesn't factor in to the chores equation for some reason.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

sinnister said:


> Got it.
> 
> So is equal weight given to mowing the lawn and shovelling the driveway?
> 
> Because in my experience the stuff that magically gets done outside of the house doesn't factor in to the chores equation for some reason.


For me, someone who does both of those things myself, they get as much weight as any other once a week job. They don't cancel out the need to help with the daily inside tasks. It's 1 chore, there are plenty more to divide up.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sinnister said:


> Got it.
> 
> So is equal weight given to mowing the lawn and shovelling the driveway?
> 
> Because in my experience the stuff that magically gets done outside of the house doesn't factor in to the chores equation for some reason.


It does in my house. Of course, it's usually ME doing it, not my husband...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And, speaking as the person who has to do the DAILY stuff - each day, every day, 365 days of the year, for 35 years, mowing once a week does NOT - at ALL - make up for having to take care of daily chores. If you're not responsible for 15-25 things a day like most women are, you can't possibly understand the difference. If you are, then you should know how differently they weigh on a person's shoulders. There's no such thing as 'let me go home and have a drink and just decompress for an hour.' Not when dinner has to be ready in 35 minutes or the kid's filthy soccer outfit has to be washed yet again for tomorrow's practice or those cookies for the bakesale have to magically appear or the cat's vomit has to be cleaned up or the drugstore has to be visited after the dog chewed up the kid's eyedrops bottle or....

Not the same thing at all.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

turnera said:


> And, speaking as the person who has to do the DAILY stuff - each day, every day, 365 days of the year, for 35 years, mowing once a week does NOT - at ALL - make up for having to take care of daily chores. If you're not responsible for 15-25 things a day like most women are, you can't possibly understand the difference. If you are, then you should know how differently they weigh on a person's shoulders. *There's no such thing as 'let me go home and have a drink and just decompress for an hour.'* Not when dinner has to be ready in 35 minutes or the kid's filthy soccer outfit has to be washed yet again for tomorrow's practice or those cookies for the bakesale have to magically appear or the cat's vomit has to be cleaned up or the drugstore has to be visited after the dog chewed up the kid's eyedrops bottle or....
> 
> Not the same thing at all.


I do it all the time. So dinner is a little late. Big deal. Or it's in the crock pot already. I don't disagree with the overall sentiment of this thread. We want HUSBANDS and PARTNERS not irresponsible, selfish children. But I don't think women do their argument any favors with these overblown tales of woe.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

sinnister said:


> Got it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's like property taxes  only inside the house counts


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

sinnister said:


> Got it.
> 
> So is equal weight given to mowing the lawn and shovelling the driveway?
> 
> Because in my experience the stuff that magically gets done outside of the house doesn't factor in to the chores equation for some reason.


Only if you are also doing laundry, answering the phone, get the dog out, toddler on the potty, meat in the over, oversee the kids homework, etc. - all while shoveling and mowing. LOL


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

sinnister said:


> Got it.
> 
> So is equal weight given to mowing the lawn and shovelling the driveway?
> 
> Because in my experience the stuff that magically gets done outside of the house doesn't factor in to the chores equation for some reason.


There's one very important difference between things like mowing the lawn or shovelling the driveway than washing the dishes and cleaning the bathroom.

Nobody is responsible for the grass growing or the snow landing on the driveway. It just happens, and it needs to be taken care of.

On the other hand, there might be a TON of dishes because one spouse is very messy and does not clean as they cook. The bathroom might be very bad because one person has bad aim and long hair.

A lot more resentment builds up when one spouse is cleaning up a mess the other person left inconsiderately. When you shovel the driveway, you might growl and grumble at the weather, but you aren't building up resentment at your spouse for putting snow down that you had to deal with.

I once had a roommate and we took turns cooking. I would make the meal, clean up as I went along, and tidy everything up afterwards, package the leftovers, do the dishes, wipe the counters etc. When my roommate made dinner, he'd ignore anything he spilled, leave things he used sitting around with the lids off, and when we finished eating, he'd leave all the pots and dishes and leftovers sitting around drying out. No amount of discussing it helped. I was just a clean-as-I-go person and he was a one-cooks-the-other-cleans person who liked to give them a LOT to clean. Guess who got a new roommate the following year.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> I do it all the time. So dinner is a little late. Big deal. Or it's in the crock pot already. I don't disagree with the overall sentiment of this thread. We want HUSBANDS and PARTNERS not irresponsible, selfish children. But I don't think women do their argument any favors with these overblown tales of woe.


Then I would suggest you haven't met enough women who deal with this day in and day out. The resentment is real.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

*Re: Re: House chores and sex - guide for men*



sinnister said:


> Got it.
> 
> So is equal weight given to mowing the lawn and shovelling the driveway?
> 
> Because in my experience the stuff that magically gets done outside of the house doesn't factor in to the chores equation for some reason.


They count to me. I also do both of those things about as much as he does.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

turnera said:


> Then I would suggest you haven't met enough women who deal with this day in and day out. The resentment is real.


I dont believe this is something only women deal with...My wife doesn't pull her weight... She may believe she does... She once bought a book called the "Stay at home Martyr". She really believes it...

I do know that she has never in 20 years said that I should do more around our the house....Many of the guys I know cook better than their wives. The wives even admit to that...


Being that I thoroughly love my job and my wife knows it... She doesn't count that as real work, even though it paid the bills so she was able to be a SAHM. I love to cook and I am good at it. Way better than her... So she believes I should happily make dinner, even after working all day...I enjoy it so it doesn't count as work... Its expected...

No resentments there. I taught her well.

My wife cooked tonight...
I Got the silent treatment.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Hicks said:


> Each person cares about different things in marriage.
> For example, many men really don't care about decor, neatness, cleanliness of the "nest". Many men do care about this. Many don't. Many women don't care about sex. Many do. I'm not stereotyping. The point is, the "work" in marriage is doing the things you don't care about simply because the other person does care about them. In this scenario the man does not care about the house as much as the wife does, and the woman does not care about sex as much as the husband does. To be successful in marriage each person must recognize that they have to work hard to meet the other person's needs, but they also need to work hard to advocate for their own needs. And ideally you understand your partner well enough to know that they are imperfect (not unloving) and that meeting needs and advocating for needs is an ongoing part of marriage.


It would be better if you didn't feel that "men don't do those types of things". It's a relationship killer, believe me. Rather, think of household chores as a cooperative contract between two adult sharing a home and children and with no paid domestic help. 

I had a chore problem with my husband when our children came along. We both works full time in the same line of work. I think he felt as you expressed here but never said it. I felt like I was dealing with an unappreciative, entitled child because he seemed so reluctant to do his part. 

You're thinking that your wife's standard of cleanliness is over the top and she should realize that men don't care about that stuff. She has nor idea you think that way unless you tell her. If you feel strongly about it, be transparent and tell your wife. It will at lest start a discussion and she may be more empathetic to your position and you hers.

The intimacy problems should be separate issue to discuss. You can see the disconnect - she resents you for not caring about how she feels about a clean house. While you feel anything you do to maintain your living space puts her in debt to you. You think you are in positive territory and can't understand why she is chronically pissed off.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Using the "we have a difference in opinion on how clean the house needs to be" argument is a cop out imo. I think people actually convince themselves it's a valid reason not to do their fair share. I hear that excuse a fair bit.

"I don't think it's necessary to make the bed every day so why should I be the one who does it?"

can be loosely translated to:

"I couldn't be bothered making the bed so I'm not going to do it. I have much more important things to do, like reading facebook."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Trickster said:


> I don't believe this is something only women deal with...


Of course it isn't, but traditionally - say 99% of the history of mankind, except for the last 40 or so years - it's been the woman's job to handle these things, so typically it's the woman handling the bulk of homemaking.



Trickster said:


> My wife cooked tonight...
> I Got the silent treatment.


Good. Let her. She's trying to put you back into your place. Trying to control you by giving you anger, as women often do. Your job is to ignore it, wade through it, even add some humor, which just might break the ice. Show her you're still willing to love her despite the manipulation. Like the kid not wanting to go to bed and testing mom and dad 100 times, she'll eventually see that this no longer works. And then you'll be able to create a NEW standard in your home.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

turnera said:


> Of course it isn't, but traditionally - say 99% of the history of mankind, except for the last 40 or so years - it's been the woman's job to handle these things, so typically it's the woman handling the bulk of homemaking.


What was true 40 years ago had nothing to do with today.

There has been such a seismic shift over the last 30 years in Male and Female relations and expectations that "traditional" is more like saying antiquated.

When I think of my circle of friends (approximately 10 couples)

5 out of 10 the husband does at least equal work inside the home, including being the primary cook.

2 out of 10 the wife is a SAHM where she does the majority of the work in the house, during work hours, when the husband comes home, they divide the work evenly.

2 out of the remaining 3, the husband is excluded from doing equal work because it's "never good enough". And the wife fully admits it and doesn't hold resentment because they admit they're too anal about the house.

The last couple hires a cleaner and landscaper and the majority of their clothes are dry cleaned. (They're very affluent).

Now one caveat, all of our friends are in healthy and stable marriages, it's somewhat of an anomaly to statistics so that also has an impact on the issue of division of labor.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

breeze said:


> Using the "we have a difference in opinion on how clean the house needs to be" argument is a cop out imo. I think people actually convince themselves it's a valid reason not to do their fair share. I hear that excuse a fair bit.


I hear that too. 

For me it was HIM with the wanting things cleaner than I did... he just didn't want to do it. He would b*tch about it not being clean enough. After many arguments about how if he is going to complain, he can take over those areas he has stopped complaining.

I do see some logic to this excuse in some cases. If one partner wants the other to clean it their specific way they should be the one to do it. But that also doesn't mean the other can just do a crappy job so they won't have to do it anymore. 

It's a tricky line.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> What was true 40 years ago had nothing to do with today.
> 
> There has been such a seismic shift over the last 30 years in Male and Female relations and expectations that "traditional" is more like saying antiquated.


You can say that all you want, but psychologically, subconsciously, the human mind takes a lot longer than 40 years to 'catch up'. As I said, 40 years is just a drop in humanity's growth and change doesn't happen overnight, despite the logistical/physical changes in society. A hundred years ago, women weren't considered valuable enough - or smart enough - to vote.

I agree that expected roles have changed dramatically. That's why things are in such turmoil the last 20 years or so - because most men still subconsciously think it's 'women's work' and are being brought into the 'equal division of labor' if not unwillingly, then at least uncomfortably.

Why do you think divorces are up to 50% and climbing? Because women work now and have a way out of bad marriages and because laws have changed to provide SAHMs a way to go back to school to learn a career if they divorce.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> 5 out of 10 the husband does at least equal work inside the home, including being the primary cook.


Really? So they wash toilets? Clean the catbox? Dust the crown moulding? Use the old toothbrush on the grout in the shower? Change out the winter blanket for the summer blankets? Go through the kids' clothes to donate what they've grown out of? 

I know most men THINK they're doing 50% of the work. But that's because they have no clue HALF of the work it takes to keep a house running. So they sweep and vacuum and cook and do dishes sometimes, and pat themselves on the back for bearing half the burden. 

Unless BOTH adults sit down at the exact same time every night on the couch, with nothing left to do, I'll agree to disagree.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I hear that too.
> 
> For me it was HIM with the wanting things cleaner than I did... he just didn't want to do it. He would b*tch about it not being clean enough. After many arguments about how if he is going to complain, he can take over those areas he has stopped complaining.


My H used to go behind me and RE-MOW the yard after I mowed it, because I'd miss a stray blade here or there, or because my lines weren't straight enough. I told him to stop doing it. He didn't. So I caught him doing it one day and I came back outside and just stood there, watching him, arms crossed. He finally came near me and said 'what?' I just looked at him and said 'you just bought yourself a new chore' and went inside. I've never mowed since, unless he was out of town.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

turnera said:


> *Really?* So they wash toilets? Clean the catbox? Dust the crown moulding? Use the old toothbrush on the grout in the shower? Change out the winter blanket for the summer blankets? Go through the kids' clothes to donate what they've grown out of?


Yes.



> I know most men THINK they're doing 50% of the work. *But that's because they have no clue HALF of the work it takes to keep a house running.* So they sweep and vacuum and cook and do dishes sometimes, and pat themselves on the back for bearing half the burden.
> 
> Unless BOTH adults sit down at the exact same time every night on the couch, with nothing left to do, I'll agree to disagree.


I think this is getting to the root of things here. The language of absolutes. I detect a lot of resentment and defensiveness. While many men may have no clue what it takes, I think there are just as many women who have an overinflated view of what it takes...leading to further resentment, feelings of being taken for granted, and martyrdom.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

turnera said:


> I know most men THINK they're doing 50% of the work. But that's because they have no clue HALF of the work it takes to keep a house running. So they sweep and vacuum and cook and do dishes sometimes, and pat themselves on the back for bearing half the burden.
> 
> Unless BOTH adults sit down at the exact same time every night on the couch, with nothing left to do, I'll agree to disagree.


In fairness, my experience was the flip side of this... we had kids, which led to more work. She then wanted to get a pet, which led to more work. She then took up cooking, which left the kitchen a mess every night. And then finally, she decided to have weekly gatherings in the house with other moms and their kids, which meant the house was a disaster area. Among other things. Surprisingly, though all her individual pursuits and expectations ramped up, sex dwindled because "the house is a mess and I can't get in the mood".

If she is not sitting down on the couch, with nothing left to do at the end of the night, it had a lot more to do with her choices and expectations (I will make a mess, you will clean it up or I will claim that I am too busy for sex).

Men don't want to be a maid service either, especially when they feel that their partner is not carrying their weight in other areas.

(And perhaps my experience is not the majority... I freely admit I'm speaking from my own somewhat angry perspective about my ex wife.)


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Looks like this thread is just riddled with pent up resentment for the opposite sex based on the experiences of individuals in their relationships. FUBAR!


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

turnera said:


> Really? So they wash toilets? Clean the catbox? Dust the crown moulding? Use the old toothbrush on the grout in the shower? Change out the winter blanket for the summer blankets? Go through the kids' clothes to donate what they've grown out of?
> 
> I know most men THINK they're doing 50% of the work. But that's because they have no clue HALF of the work it takes to keep a house running. So they sweep and vacuum and cook and do dishes sometimes, and pat themselves on the back for bearing half the burden.
> 
> Unless BOTH adults sit down at the exact same time every night on the couch, with nothing left to do, I'll agree to disagree.


Then we'll agree to disagree. 

Yes, the husbands are doing 50% of the work...or more in some houses.

Your perceptions are tainted by your experience and mine are from mine. You're experience is obviously with a husband who doesn't do his "fair share". Mine is very different. I do more of the housework than my ex wife did and my current wife did. I'm more of a stickler in the shower than she is. 

But let's not make our opinions based on our VERY limited perceptions sound like they're somehow a greater understanding of the masses. You have your opinion, and I have mine.

Yes, gender roles and division of labor is alive and well. I would venture to guess that more women do laundry and more men mow the lawn etc. I would also venture to guess in most HEALTHY relationships, both people DO end up sitting down at the same time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's not just my jaded opinion. I've read dozens of articles about this and they almost unanimously come up with the same results. This isn't about me, although I'm surely a great example.



> Women still have to do the lion's share of housework despite going out to work in ever increasing numbers.
> Researchers found that they spent three times as long on domestic chores, such as cooking, cleaning and washing, as their husbands or partners.
> Some female breadwinners, however, have to shoulder the burden of all the housework as almost one in five men admitted to doing nothing at all around the home.
> The average for women was 17 hours a week, compared to just under six hours for men.
> ...


Read more: Working women 'still do housework' | Daily Mail Online 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Few months ago Andrew Sullivan had this table on his blog with hours spent on house chores by men and women with kids, even if the kids are already over 18 yo, andmen and women without any kids at home. Without kis things were more or less even.

It was kids who made the difference, even the adult one. Mother was still mothering them, cooking for them, doing laundry, cleaning after them, same as when they were younger. 

Solution: send your kids to the college out of town!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> Today’s women spend more time in paid employment but still come home to the second shift. On the typical day, nearly half of them will do housework, but just 20 percent of men will do the same. And women put more time into scrubbing the toilet or doing the laundry—three more hours each week than men. Men carve out three more hours of leisure time. Even mothers who work full-time will still put in a week and a half’s worth more time on household tasks than their male partners each year. When the division of household labor falls along gender lines, where can we turn for an explanation?
> 
> There’s a school of thought that women take on more of the childrearing work—moms spend twice the time on childcare each week that dads do—because they are biologically inclined to be caregivers. And it’s true that the female body is the one equipped to carry a pregnancy and breastfeed and that these experiences can create bonds, although there is also evidence that giving dads the time to be present during the earliest moments causes a bond that gets them more involved with their children later on.
> 
> ...


Why It Matters That Women Do Most of the Housework | The Nation


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WandaJ said:


> Few months ago Andrew Sullivan had this table on his blog with hours spent on house chores by men and women with kids, even if the kids are already over 18 yo, andmen and women without any kids at home. Without kis things were more or less even.
> 
> It was kids who made the difference, even the adult one. Mother was still mothering them, cooking for them, doing laundry, cleaning after them, same as when they were younger.
> 
> Solution: send your kids to the college out of town!


When DD24 was about 5, I gave her a chore. Every year I gave her another chore. By the time she was 18, she could do everything, from laundry to cleaning to mowing. When she went away to college, she was consistently the only person cleaning up.

She has also commented several times that those friends who did not go away to school seem to be stuck in 'high school mode' and never have really grown emotionally, can't see the bigger picture, don't make long-range decisions. I thought it was interesting that she saw that.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

WandaJ said:


> Solution: send your kids to the college out of town!


:iagree:

We have a saying. "Going away to college means going away."


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

17-21 hours a week, excluding child related care...to me, that sounds like they either need to downsize a bit, or they are making things WAY more difficult and time consuming than they need to be, or just aren't estimating the time very well.

I could possibly see it if children are taken into account, but regular domestic cleaning, including laundry...if it is taking that much time, something is off somewhere.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> Is there a way to make wiping a counter or a window manly? Perhaps that holds the key to getting men to get off the sofa and vacuum under it.


And thus, Mr. Clean was born...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> 17-21 hours a week, excluding child related care...to me, that sounds like they either need to downsize a bit, or they are making things WAY more difficult and time consuming than they need to be, or just aren't estimating the time very well.
> 
> I could possibly see it if children are taken into account, but regular domestic cleaning, including laundry...if it is taking that much time, something is off somewhere.


2 hours of cooking and cleaning per weekday = 10 hours
+
4 hours of cooking, deep cleaning, grocery shopping, yard work, etc per weekend day = 8 hours.

That's pretty standard for a family home. 
I can easily see how the average would be 17-21 hours/week.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

samyeagar said:


> 17-21 hours a week, excluding child related care...to me, that sounds like they either need to downsize a bit, or they are making things WAY more difficult and time consuming than they need to be, or just aren't estimating the time very well.
> 
> I could possibly see it if children are taken into account, but regular domestic cleaning, including laundry...if it is taking that much time, something is off somewhere.


That's because, as I've said, you're not seeing all the OTHER things that are involved in running a house, things that many men simply aren't privy to. I could make a list for you, but it would be long.

It's not just cooking. It's replacing the empty spice bottles. It's reorganizing the pantry when it gets disorganized. It's rinsing, washing, drying, and putting away dishes. It's shopping for new glasses when the old ones get broken. It's going through the junk drawer and moving the stuff that gets dumped in there to the appropriate room. It's moving the pots and pans around to accommodate the new double boiler. It's washing, drying, folding, and putting away the kitchen towels. It's getting out a new sponge and throwing away the old one. It's loading the dishwashing soap into the sink dispenser. It's taking apart the stove top and detail-cleaning the top and burners. It's cleaning the grout. It's cleaning the vent fan. There are a thousand little things like that that get done, that usually go unrecognized for having been done because, well, they get done and the house keeps humming.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

turnera said:


> Really? So they wash toilets? Clean the catbox? Dust the crown moulding? Use the old toothbrush on the grout in the shower? Change out the winter blanket for the summer blankets? Go through the kids' clothes to donate what they've grown out of?
> 
> I know most men THINK they're doing 50% of the work. But that's because they have no clue HALF of the work it takes to keep a house running. So they sweep and vacuum and cook and do dishes sometimes, and pat themselves on the back for bearing half the burden.
> 
> Unless BOTH adults sit down at the exact same time every night on the couch, with nothing left to do, I'll agree to disagree.


:lol:

Yeah, if any of the men I know claimed to do 50% of the chores, that'd actually mean 50% of the chores they *think* about, the rest don't count.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

turnera said:


> It's not just my jaded opinion. I've read dozens of articles about this and they almost unanimously come up with the same results. This isn't about me, although I'm surely a great example.
> 
> 
> Read more: Working women 'still do housework' | Daily Mail Online
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



Now lets look a little deeper into the entire package of running a house. In a recent Pew study, Men carried 54 hours per week (between household chores, work and childcare) versus women's 53 hours.

The difference is men, on average work more hours outside the home and in turn have less inside the home...on average.

Modern Parenthood | Pew Research Center’s Social & Demographic Trends Project

Now does this mean women...across society...still do more childcare and housework....statistically yes. But it also shows that men and women do EQUAL. 

This takes into account that there are more SAHM's than SAHDs. That has an effect on the percentages in regards to how much work and what type is being done, but the bottom line it shows the hours spent on running the household is equal. Now this also tells me that in households where both parties work...they're doing equal chores...again...ON AVERAGE.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

turnera said:


> It's not just my jaded opinion. I've read dozens of articles about this and they almost unanimously come up with the same results. This isn't about me, although I'm surely a great example.
> 
> 
> Read more: Working women 'still do housework' | Daily Mail Online
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


PS I never said your opinion was jaded. Not even close. I simply said we have DIFFERENT opinions. Equally relevant to our own world and perceptions.

I'm not discounting your opinion. Your situation is real and relevant. It's also common for MANY women in society. But when you generalize that your situation is the predominant situation of society....that is something that I'll disagree with.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 2 hours of cooking and cleaning per weekday = 10 hours
> +
> 4 hours of cooking, deep cleaning, grocery shopping, yard work, etc per weekend day = 8 hours.
> 
> ...


Just a case in point...I do almost all of the cooking in my house, and it is real cooking, with real ingredients, with multiple pots and pans and no microwave...I especially love making the meals where I get to use multiple knives  The average meal takes about 1.25 hours from beginning to end. I clean as I go, but don't stop with just what I dirty while cooking. I'll get under the microwave, top of the stove, cabinet fronts, clean the fridge. I'll take the few minutes to throw a load of laundry in to wash while dinner is cooking, and get it into the dryer before it's time to eat.

I will admit that I didn't think about cooking time during the 17-21 hours, but then again, I multitask very well, and very little of what I do around the house is done standalone, with nothing else going on.

I clean the shower and tub as I go as well...an extra couple of minutes in the morning while I am showering, and it never gets to the point where I need to spend a couple hours scrubbing the grout, or bleaching the mildew, scraping soap scum.

I am usually up an hour or so before I need to leave for work, and while the coffee is brewing, I usually get a floor swept, or other odds and ends like sewing my wife torn pair of panties from the night before.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Now lets look a little deeper into the entire package of running a house. In a recent Pew study, Men carried 54 hours per week (between household chores, work and childcare) versus women's 53 hours.
> 
> The difference is men, on average work more hours outside the home and in turn have less inside the home...on average.
> 
> ...


That "equal" includes paid working hours, according to the chart in the article. 


> However, when their paid work is combined with the work they do at home, fathers and mothers are carrying an almost equal workload.


This takes into account all the SAHM, since men take up 42 hours of paid work to women's 31 hours. If women were equally working the 42 hours, THEN I'd like to see how it works out.

It says women spend 16 hours a week on the household chores while men spend 9. So basically, women still spend nearly twice as much time taking care of the house.

It says:


> Fathers have by no means caught up to mothers in terms of time spent caring for children and doing household chores, but there has been some gender convergence in the way they divide their time between work and home.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

turnera said:


> That's because, as I've said, you're not seeing all the OTHER things that are involved in running a house, things that many men simply aren't privy to. I could make a list for you, but it would be long.
> 
> It's not just cooking. It's replacing the empty spice bottles. It's reorganizing the pantry when it gets disorganized. It's rinsing, washing, drying, and putting away dishes. It's shopping for new glasses when the old ones get broken. It's going through the junk drawer and moving the stuff that gets dumped in there to the appropriate room. It's moving the pots and pans around to accommodate the new double boiler. It's washing, drying, folding, and putting away the kitchen towels. It's getting out a new sponge and throwing away the old one. It's loading the dishwashing soap into the sink dispenser. It's taking apart the stove top and detail-cleaning the top and burners. It's cleaning the grout. It's cleaning the vent fan. There are a thousand little things like that that get done, that usually go unrecognized for having been done because, well, they get done and the house keeps humming.


And see, I look at the things you have listed here, and see many things that could be dovetailed with other things, or things that never should end up being a problem to begin with like the pantry...put things where they belong as the grocery shopping is being unloaded, and putting things back on the right shelf instead of the wrong shelf...doesn't even take any extra time at all, and saves having to spend hours down the line after it gets out of hand...I know...a lot easier said than done when one is surrounded by essentially slobs


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

They're not a problem...they just take time!

Some are saying they spend equal time doing chores, we were commenting they aren't even aware of all the little things that go into keeping the house running and the time it takes.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

turnera said:


> They're not a problem...they just take time!
> 
> Some are saying they spend equal time doing chores, we were commenting they aren't even aware of all the little things that go into keeping the house running and the time it takes.



That's just it...I spend eight hours a week in the kitchen preparing meals. We have an attached dining room. That entire living area is kept in top shape in all the details...baseboards, cabinets, stove, refrigerator, floors, windowsills without spending any additional time in there. I really do think some people make things way harder on themselves than they need to.

Take the very common situation of the dining room table having crap stacked on it and every few weeks, needing a couple hours to sort it and put it away. If people cared to take the few seconds here and there to put sh1t where it belong instead of just throwing it there, then it never becomes an issue. How many people end up with a stack of mail on the table that most of it is junk anyway, and then have to sort it, instead of just throwing the junk away when they walked right past the trashcan to get to the table in the first place?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Men wake up every day with a hard on. Thus his first thought is about sex. Then he realizes he is hungry. Thus his second thought is about food. This is biology. Men don't have a biological drive for children and houses. They have a biological drive for sex and killing breakfast. Children and houses and all that entails are the outcomes of this bioligical need. I am not a woman but I would say it's the opposite. Then need is for children and houses and sex is the means to attain that. Now I'm sure everyone will say I am a sexist a-hole but I do feel that men are different from women (ack!) and that understanding what makes your spouse tick is crucial to attaining YOUR OWN happiness in marriage.

In my observation of my wife I notice that 10,000 details of what needs to be done within the house / home / family / social network are constantly on her mind. Is this a biological drive? I don't know. Is it bad or wrong? Hell No! It's what makes her special. But these 10,000 things simply do not run through my head and I cannot put them there. Does that make me a bad guy? No, but i had to learn to ADAPT and recognize when I had to insert myself into the swirling list of her priorities which are not my priorities. But that was a process for me and I was not born with it. And all I can say is that it is harmful to a marriage if a wife characterizes a man as lazy and selfish when in his heart he wants to "make her happy" but just doesn't know how. Marriage is a process I always say. People need time to learn what makes the other person unique and what the other person cares about.

Some husband's remain ignorant or are just plain selfish lazy jerks. But the ignorant or selfish ones are not in a happy marriage. Cases in point have been described in this thread.

And flip this whole thing around. Men have priorities and needs that the wife needs to take action with, even though it's not her personal drive to do so. And it's every bit as harmful and detrimental to the state of the marriage if she fails in her learning process of what is important to her man.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> Just a case in point...I do almost all of the cooking in my house, and it is real cooking, with real ingredients, with multiple pots and pans and no microwave...I especially love making the meals where I get to use multiple knives  The average meal takes about 1.25 hours from beginning to end. I clean as I go, but don't stop with just what I dirty while cooking. I'll get under the microwave, top of the stove, cabinet fronts, clean the fridge. I'll take the few minutes to throw a load of laundry in to wash while dinner is cooking, and get it into the dryer before it's time to eat.
> .


I have kids, dinner time is already a crazy mess of busy multi-tasking. 

I do agree that if every single person in the household is doing their part to clean up after themselves and putting things where they belong it would cut the average cleaning time down. 
If you have a situation like that, Yay! You guys should have no issues with chore resentment.
For people who _do _have chore resentment, this is not the kind of situation they are in.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

turnera said:


> That's because, as I've said, you're not seeing all the OTHER things that are involved in running a house, things that many men simply aren't privy to. I could make a list for you, but it would be long.
> 
> It's not just cooking. It's replacing the empty spice bottles. It's reorganizing the pantry when it gets disorganized. It's rinsing, washing, drying, and putting away dishes. It's shopping for new glasses when the old ones get broken. It's going through the junk drawer and moving the stuff that gets dumped in there to the appropriate room. It's moving the pots and pans around to accommodate the new double boiler. It's washing, drying, folding, and putting away the kitchen towels. It's getting out a new sponge and throwing away the old one. It's loading the dishwashing soap into the sink dispenser. It's taking apart the stove top and detail-cleaning the top and burners. It's cleaning the grout. It's cleaning the vent fan. There are a thousand little things like that that get done, that usually go unrecognized for having been done because, well, they get done and the house keeps humming.





turnera said:


> That "equal" includes paid working hours, according to the chart in the article.
> 
> 
> This takes into account all the SAHM, since men take up 42 hours of paid work to women's 31 hours. If women were equally working the 42 hours, THEN I'd like to see how it works out.
> ...


Am I arguing with the numbers...nope.

The amount of hours spent doing house work is higher for women....because they work less hours outside the home.

The end numbers are there. Men and women put equal TOTAL hours between work and home..which means, when BOTH people work equally, they're doing equal chores. Otherwise that chart would be skewed much sharper in the total number of hours worked by women (the 53 versus men's 54). It's simple statistics. 

If working women (who put in the 37 hours of the men) still did the 18 and 14 hours of chores and childcare...working moms would show a gross of 69 hours. Which means SAHM's or part time working moms would have to work TOTAL (paid work, chores and childcare) 37 hours (to come up with the average 53 hours listed). 

So there's one of two explanations...

Either working families share the load a lot more than you want to admit. Or SAHM's really are slacking off a great deal and their working husbands are picking up the slack...Which would lead to Husband's of working moms doing EVEN LESS (because their gross still have to average out to 54)....wow, that must be it to substantiate your claims.

So which is it?


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

turnera said:


> They're not a problem...they just take time!
> 
> Some are saying they spend equal time doing chores, we were commenting they aren't even aware of all the little things that go into keeping the house running and the time it takes.


Tumera, many men have come on and say they get that and you don't seem to want to believe them. I've been a SAHD and do get it and I believe these other men do too.

I don't see cooking, cleaning, shopping, getting the kids off to school as work. For some reason, I don't see it as a chore either. I enjoy all of it and it's just part of the daily routine. I work around 45 hours a week now and still don't see cooking, cleaning doing laundry as a big deal. Neither does my wife and she does as much as I do, but there's no score card kept. 

We don't have a list of crap to do. If either of us spot a full laundry hamper it gets washed. One thing she hates is the bathrooms, so I do them because I like a clean tub! Neither of us see this as some kind of competition, it just gets done. Maybe we're lucky because we BOTH like and organized home. We also don't let sh!t pile up so our weekends are free. More "us" time. 

I can't grasp having a lazy spouse and couldn't handle it...And there ARE men who do equal amounts in the home including all the things you listed that we may have no contemplated. 

If I was single I'd be doing it all and did. I don't see why this would stop after marriage, but am reading it does for some.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

PS I'm going to back out of this part of the discussion because this did take a bad turn.

Lets get back to scrubbing a toilet and how it makes my wife hot........(or not LOL)


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Lets get back to scrubbing a toilet and how it makes my wife hot........(or not LOL)


Oh yeah, that's what this was about...

Well, I guess I'm not getting any tonight. The house is already spotless. :rofl:


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Dad&Hubby said:


> PS I'm going to back out of this part of the discussion because this did take a bad turn.
> 
> Lets get back to scrubbing a toilet and how it makes my wife hot........(or not LOL)



I used to try it by vacuuming the house wearing noting but a pair of chaps. Errr, that didn't work either.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> I used to try it by vacuuming the house wearing noting but a pair of chaps. Errr, that didn't work either.


I'm not brave enough for that.....to easy to have a suction based mishap.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Am I arguing with the numbers...nope.
> 
> The amount of hours spent doing house work is higher for women....because they work less hours outside the home.


Except for the growing number of women who work full time and THEN go home and STILL do the work. And I think that is what this thread is about, isn't it?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

T&T said:


> Tumera, many men have come on and say they get that and you don't seem to want to believe them. I've been a SAHD and do get it and I believe these other men do too.


Sorry, but I've been replying to the ones who DO dispute it. I believe the others just fine - they aren't arguing and saying men do half of the work. And besides, most men who come to places like this are usually far more enlightened than the average joe, and are GOING to be more aware of such things because, well, this is a marriage-fixing site. 

T/J out.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

turnera said:


> Sorry, but I've been replying to the ones who DO dispute it. I believe the others just fine - they aren't arguing and saying men do half of the work. And besides, most men who come to places like this are usually far more enlightened than the average joe, and are GOING to be more aware of such things because, well, this is a marriage-fixing site.


Fair enough. So why do the wives put up with it? If the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't keep doing all the work. Not a chance! I would say something about it and expect him to do his share. It's not the 50's anymore and it's not an unreasonable request. I see that you've tried and it fell on deaf ears. I'm talking in general. Women shouldn't be carrying the blunt of work these days and need to establish that within the marriage. Are they their own worst enemy for not establishing the boundaries?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

turnera said:


> Then I would suggest you haven't met enough women who deal with this day in and day out. The resentment is real.


Absolutely. That's not my point. I think that women don't always put their best foot forward when attempting to solve this kind of problem. YES it is no fun to have a partner who is a child. YES it builds resentment. BUT women can take a little responsibility for planning to meet their own needs and setting limits, if not with their spouse, at least with their kids.

Still the immature man has to go. But the martyr thing isn't pretty either.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

turnera said:


> Really? So they wash toilets? Clean the catbox? Dust the crown moulding? Use the old toothbrush on the grout in the shower? Change out the winter blanket for the summer blankets? Go through the kids' clothes to donate what they've grown out of?
> 
> I know most men THINK they're doing 50% of the work. But that's because they have no clue HALF of the work it takes to keep a house running. So they sweep and vacuum and cook and do dishes sometimes, and pat themselves on the back for bearing half the burden.


I think this is true. I think the best approach is effective limit setting early on in the marriage. But it is not easy to figure out to do that when we chicas are taught to be oh so caring.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I think this is true. I think the best approach is effective limit setting early on in the marriage. But it is not easy to figure out to do that when we chicas are taught to be oh so caring.


I think a lot of times these things don't come up early on. Kids come and there's more work to divide up, maybe Mom takes some time off work for a bit and takes over the house completely for a while and when she goes back to work it doesn't get evened back out, etc. A lot of times it's not something you notice right away and by the time you are stuck in the bad habits, they are had to break.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

T&T said:


> Fair enough. So why do the wives put up with it? If the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't keep doing all the work. Not a chance! I would say something about it and expect him to do his share. It's not the 50's anymore and it's not an unreasonable request. *I see that you've tried and it fell on deaf ears.* I'm talking in general. Women shouldn't be carrying the blunt of work these days and need to establish that within the marriage. Are they their own worst enemy for not establishing the boundaries?


The problem is, some things HAVE to get done. Many have tried to get their husbands to do more, but it falls on deaf ears. Still, the diapers _need _to be changed, the lunches _need_ to be made, and the dishes _need _to get done. Both of them can't not do things, so yes, one of them does it, and it's usually the one who is frustrated with trying to get through the "deaf ears, talk to the hand" one.

If one pretends to be deaf long enough, the other one grows resentful and poof, loses all desire to have sex with the deaf one.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

breeze said:


> :lol:
> 
> Yeah, if any of the men I know claimed to do 50% of the chores, that'd actually mean 50% of the chores they *think* about, the rest don't count.


It seems to me that each person in the family over 6 should be part of the equation. The closer that they get to tween/teen aged, the equation should not be total chores / 2 adults but total chores / # of chore capable people in the household.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I always said I wanted to have 3 sons because I was gonna make sure they grew up knowing how to do all the chores, so I could send them out to the world and make 3 women very happy.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> It seems to me that each person in the family over 6 should be part of the equation. The closer that they get to tween/teen aged, the equation should not be total chores / 2 adults but total chores / # of chore capable people in the household.


This has been tricky in my home too. If H says he'll get something done sometime he just has the kids do it instead while he stands there giving them directions. He asks why do I care? It got done. 

IMO yes the kids need chores. I have a system in place for them but it doesn't take away from the parents having to do their share too. Oh and I also don't think the kids, at least the younger ones, should have the same % of chores as the grown ups. They have friends, they play outside, do homework, etc.


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## 20yrsofmarriage (Sep 29, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This has been tricky in my home too. If *H says he'll get something done sometime he just has the kids do it instead while he stands there giving them directions. He asks why do I care? It got done. *
> 
> IMO yes the kids need chores. I have a system in place for them but it doesn't take away from the parents having to do their share too. Oh and I also don't think the kids, at least the younger ones, should have the same % of chores as the grown ups. They have friends, they play outside, do homework, etc.


I'm not alone!! This is my husband all day long! Basically he's teaching my kids that he doesn't have to do a thing bc that's what he has a wife and kids for.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Sorry ladies. We've all left the thread and are engaged in an awesome game of WoW, guzzling beer and lighting farts.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The problem is, your kids see their dad not doing the work so they're learning that men don't have to. And that will be their mantra when THEY grow up. 

I gave DD24 one new chore each year. She wasn't 100% responsible for them, but by the time she graduated, she could handle all of them, if I made her. We shared the work. Still trying to get H to participate, but he does cook sometimes and he'll fold towels if I dump them on him on the couch (won't put them up, though).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

T&T said:


> Fair enough. So why do the wives put up with it? If the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't keep doing all the work. Not a chance! I would say something about it and expect him to do his share. It's not the 50's anymore and it's not an unreasonable request. I see that you've tried and it fell on deaf ears. I'm talking in general. Women shouldn't be carrying the blunt of work these days and need to establish that within the marriage. Are they their own worst enemy for not establishing the boundaries?


In my case, saying something and expecting weren't doing diddly. In general, falling on deaf ears is par for the course.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

norajane said:


> The problem is, some things HAVE to get done. Many have tried to get their husbands to do more, but it falls on deaf ears. Still, the diapers _need _to be changed, the lunches _need_ to be made, and the dishes _need _to get done. Both of them can't not do things, so yes, one of them does it, and it's usually the one who is frustrated with trying to get through the "deaf ears, talk to the hand" one.
> 
> If one pretends to be deaf long enough, the other one grows resentful and poof, loses all desire to have sex with the deaf one.


Not all of this stuff REALLY NEEDS to get done. Obviously you don't fail to change your kid's diaper. But you CAN leave the dishes in the sink. You CAN let the bathroom get really disgusting. And let the **** hit the fan.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> Not all of this stuff REALLY NEEDS to get done. Obviously you don't fail to change your kid's diaper. But you CAN leave the dishes in the sink. You CAN let the bathroom get really disgusting. And let the **** hit the fan.


For how long? Eventually you will have to clean and then you're playing catch up until you are back on schedule. If I did nothing for a week all it would do would give me twice as much to do the next week.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> For how long? Eventually you will have to clean and then you're playing catch up until you are back on schedule. If I did nothing for a week all it would do would give me twice as much to do the next week.


If he refuses to help, just get some of his money and hire a cleaning service.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This has been tricky in my home too. If H says he'll get something done sometime he just has the kids do it instead while he stands there giving them directions. He asks why do I care? It got done.
> 
> IMO yes the kids need chores. I have a system in place for them but it doesn't take away from the parents having to do their share too. Oh and I also don't think the kids, at least the younger ones, should have the same % of chores as the grown ups. They have friends, they play outside, do homework, etc.


Well, why do you care? If the chores you asked to get done, got done, should it really matter HOW they got done?

I am looking forward to the day my younger kids start doing chores...because then, I won't hardly have to do anything!!! muwhahahahaha.  Obviously, I will still have my chores to do, but certain chores my kids will most definitely do.


Putting up laundry (not a daily thing), dishes, wiping out bathtubs, toilets, and sinks (again, not a daily thing) doesn't take that long. My kids will come home, do their homework, do their chores, THEN go outside to play* if *there is time. On the weekends and during the summer, they have more time for playing outside.

My 9 year old has to make his bed in the mornings, vacuum his room, clean his toilet and bathtub, put up his laundry, and dust his room. He occasionally has to help with dishes and take out the trash.

My 3 year old has to clean up his toys in the living room and in his room, he also must bring his plate/cup/fork to the sink after eating and grab the cloth from the sink to wipe up any mess he made at the table. 

My 1.5 year old helps pick up toys and will help me put up the vacuum by opening the door to the closet for me! It's cute!

For all of them, there is still plenty of time to play outside.

They will learn responsibility. Yes. They are children, but I am not slave laboring them. There is a time for play and there is a time for responsibilities. 

Honestly, I don't think kids are learning enough responsibility these days. They lack respect and are lazy. They expect people to give without them having to do a thing to earn it. So, a little more chores during the week and a little less play time might help them transition in the real world later in life.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> For how long? Eventually you will have to clean and then you're playing catch up until you are back on schedule. If I did nothing for a week all it would do would give me twice as much to do the next week.


I had a husband whose mother had done EVERYTHING for him. He really had not the first clue. We talked. And exactly as Tunera said, he would clean once, think he was a rock star and that was the end of that. Rinse, repeat a bunch. And the resentment started setting in. Bottom line was he was Never Ever going to step up individually. I could have left him. And considered doing exactly that. And told him so.

I also told him that I am not his mother nor his maid. He can choose how he is going to act. And so am I. I am not going to be a jerk. I am not going to cook for myself and intentionally leave you out. But I am not picking up your garbage. If it is in my way, I will simply stuff it in your closet or the nearest place out of my way. I am not going to do your laundry. I will get stuff at the store if I am going, but I am not making special trips for things "we" need that are really things that you want.

You are treating me like a child! He decried. Meh, if the shoe fits.

It took a while. But he Got It. When he could not find any of his stuff. When he did not have a stitch of clean clothes. When he had nothing to eat if I went out with friends.

Limit setting. If you are going to ultimately do it all, what incentive does he REALLY have to change? From his perspective, you just look like a typical nagging wife, and he probably has no idea what to do.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> Well, why do you care? If the chores you asked to get done, got done, should it really matter HOW they got done?


I agree with this. A lot of women get hung up on not just that they get done, that they meet very specific requirements of how (my way) and to a very specific standard.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

staarz21 said:


> Well, why do you care? If the chores you asked to get done, got done, should it really matter HOW they got done?
> 
> I am looking forward to the day my younger kids start doing chores...because then, I won't hardly have to do anything!!! muwhahahahaha.  Obviously, I will still have my chores to do, but certain chores my kids will most definitely do.
> 
> ...


One relatively recent thing that I think really add to the problems is the popularity of thought that kids need to be in every kind of organized activity known to man...that if they aren't in three sports, music lessons, dance, cheer, gymnastics, or swimming, that the kids are going to grow up at some perceived disadvantage to the kids who do. Often what this does is take away from time at home that could have been used to get things done around the house, as the parent often sits and watches, reads a book or surfs the internet. So not even quality time with the kids...and what is going to be more valuable to kids when they get through college?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

staarz21 said:


> Well, why do you care? If the chores you asked to get done, got done, should it really matter HOW they got done?


Because my kids have chores already. They shouldn't have to do his too because he wants to be lazy.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Because my kids have chores already. They shouldn't have to do his too because he wants to be lazy.


I would bet a dollar you are stuck in a right fight.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I would bet a dollar you are stuck in a right fight.


I'm not sure what this means. 

My kids already do more than he does around the house. If I get him to agree to do 1 thing and he pawns it off on the kids I'm not going to be happy with that. Not because I want to be right, because WE already have to carry his weight and he needs to pick up some himself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> I agree with this. A lot of women get hung up on not just that they get done, that they meet very specific requirements of how (my way) and to a very specific standard.


Normally, I'd say that, but not when it involves the man getting the kids to do it. You have a responsibility to raise healthy-minded kids and if they grow up watching their dad refuse to participate, guess what? The male kids will refuse to participate too, and the female kids will believe they have to suck it up and do it all themselves.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

turnera said:


> Normally, I'd say that, but not when it involves the man getting the kids to do it. You have a responsibility to raise healthy-minded kids and if they grow up watching their dad refuse to participate, guess what? The male kids will refuse to participate too, and the female kids will believe they have to suck it up and do it all themselves.


Yah I agree with that.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

turnera said:


> Normally, I'd say that, but not when it involves the man getting the kids to do it. You have a responsibility to raise healthy-minded kids and if they grow up watching their dad refuse to participate, guess what? The male kids will refuse to participate too, and the female kids will believe they have to suck it up and do it all themselves.


I can agree with this in the more general sense. When kids see a dysfunctional relationship, they will carry that with them through life, as often happens in the case of a doormat husband and father.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

samyeagar said:


> Just a case in point...I do almost all of the cooking in my house, and it is real cooking, with real ingredients, with multiple pots and pans and no microwave...I especially love making the meals where I get to use multiple knives  The average meal takes about 1.25 hours from beginning to end. I clean as I go, but don't stop with just what I dirty while cooking. I'll get under the microwave, top of the stove, cabinet fronts, clean the fridge. I'll take the few minutes to throw a load of laundry in to wash while dinner is cooking, and get it into the dryer before it's time to eat.
> 
> I will admit that I didn't think about cooking time during the 17-21 hours, but then again, I multitask very well, and very little of what I do around the house is done standalone, with nothing else going on.
> 
> ...


Hey Sam

If our wives ever leave us, would you like to date?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> Hey Sam
> 
> If our wives ever leave us, would you like to date?


Maybe if my Russian bride doesn't work out 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/225674-tam-ad.html


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

samyeagar said:


> Maybe if my Russian bride doesn't work out
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/225674-tam-ad.html


I prefer the cougar ads because quite frankly, they all look years younger than me.


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