# Confessions of an ashamed, emotionally abusive husband....



## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Hi,

This is my first post here and this will probably be more of a stream of conciousness than a decent post so sorry in advance...

My wife and I met 7 years ago and married just under 3 years ago. We lived together before we were married and bought a house together. We had ups and downs obviously but I always had faith that we would work through things and we always did. We often talked about how much we loved each other and enjoyed a lot of the same things. We travelled a lot, loved cooking together, liked the same books, TV shows, films and generally despite the odd argument I thought that most of the time we were happy together. In fact, it was only a month ago that we spent £800 on a trip to a three michelin star restaurant and had an amazing evening. 

Now, as I'm trying to be objective, I'm afraid that I wasn't always the most fun to live with as I'm now starting to see that I have self esteem issues which manifested in weight gain and drinking a bit too much. I could be very moody and negative and brought home my work problems. However, she was always there for me. She on the other hand also had some issues and has always suffered from severe mood swings and depression. Throw in the fact she has an overbearing mother and that we had become codependant there were a number of issues that we never addressed properly and that have now come home to roost.

Anyway, three months ago whilst we had been in a good patch we had decided to try for a baby. She wasn't very keen as she had never wanted kids but she said she would do it for us. She came off the long term injection method of birth control (which she had been on for 5 years solid) and I'm sure this has had a little bit of a role in our separation too due to the massive hormonal changes she is going through. Since then she has lost loads of weight (almost 20lbs), has become obsessed by her job which she is really enjoying at the moment and generally seemed to be in a great mood. However, last month her period was later than expected and she lost it. She was crying her eyes out and told me she never wanted kids and that she would have an abortion if she could but wouldn't because it was mine. Fortunately for her it turned out to be a false alarm. She then said she wanted to spend some time with her family but that I didn't have to come as she knew I had problems with them. I now realise that I responded terribly to this and basically threw it all back in her face and accused her of trying to upset me! It's horrible to even write and I feel absolutely ashamed of myself. I never realised I was capable of that sort of emotional abuse. Anyway, we barely said a word for two weeks after and then she came home from work and said, 
"we have problems and I think we should separate. I love my work and I don't even want to be here (our home which we completely renovated together). You've isolated me from my friends and family. I don't know what has changed but a switch has been flicked and I don't love you anymore". 
At which point I went into panic mode and retracted everything, apologised for anything I could think of but nothing worked, she was cold as ice. Then I got angry and told her to get out, threw the marriage photos out of the house and broke down in tears. Her dad rang the police as he was on the phone during all this and they escorted away.

Since that point I've got myself into counselling as this has been a complete eye opener for me. I don't like the person I have become. My dad acted similarly to my mum and I never wanted to do that but here I am repeating the same things. We've spoken once on the phone which went much better than I had hoped. I let her know that I understood why she had left and humbly accepted everything she said about me. She said she was going to get some counselling too. Then a couple of days later we bumped into each other when she was coming to collect her bike from the house. We had a brief chat about things but she said didn't know about us anymore and asked me not to contact her to give her time to think. I gave her a letter that I had written explaining why I hoped we weren't finished but have respected her wishes and not been in touch. She has since paid her half of the mortgage and also put money into the savings account. I know there is no one else involved as I have spoken to a mutual friend who she stayed with when she left. I suspect she has had an emotional affair but to be honest I can't blame her when I review my actions.

I am now sat here feeling bored, ashamed, down and alone. I don't want to be in this house either now. I miss my wife terribly and I don't know what to do. I desperately want to show her how remorseful I am about how I have acted but can't see why she would even want to talk to me anymore let alone try to work on things with me. Can anyone give me some advice? Have I completely smashed to pieces our life together? 
Thanks, M.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1,

Before you start judging my post, I want you to know that your life almost mirrors mine to a large degree and the feelings you're going through are very familiar and fresh in my mind. Don't ever think your case is unique and 'no one understands'. I made that mistake and am paying for it dearly.

Now, get ready, I'm about to run you over with a Mack truck:

1. You have nothing to be ashamed of.

2. Your wife most likely suffers from a personality disorder. Find out if she suffers from Bipolar (Manic depression), Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, ADD or multiple ones.

3. Your codependency has completely killed your self-esteem. You cannot interpret your obsession with your wife's physical presence as "love". It's not love. It's *your* dependence on her. Very different.

4. Your wife left you. That's the most destructive action in your marriage. Nothing you may have done or she may have done measures up in comparison with her act of leaving. She left and didn't come back. HUGE emotional betrayal on her part and something you will have a very hard time forgiving her for in the future. Trust me, it's happened to me and I'm going through it right now.

5. You have not acted in any abnormal way. Unless you physically abused your wife, there's absolutely nothing wrong with reacting to her extreme mood disorders and lack of respect for your marriage. SHE LEFT YOU! Remember that. This is the person that promised to be with you for good. She bailed as soon as she felt comfortable with her job and somewhat dissatisfied with your marriage. A committed wife would not do that. Your wife is a selfish person.

6. Before you do anything else, read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". See a scary image of yourself in that book and start working on yourself. 

7. Do not initiate contact with your wife. DO NOT. If you want your life back with or without your wife, do not contact her.


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## InTheBedIMade (May 20, 2012)

synthetic nails it again. all I can add to this is that the self loathing passes. 
get busy doing things you love and make yourself happy while she figures this out.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok now that I have given you that list, there's something I want to tell you:

Your wife no longer feels she should limit her options by staying committed to you. This is a very common occurrence among career women these days and is highly prevalent in the western world. Use your imagination and connect some dots to understand where it gets its roots from (hint: culture, media).

Regardless of what you convince your wife to do, even if she comes back to you, she will no longer be trustworthy in your mind. You will be in constant fear of losing her at the next sharp-turn. You will be walking on egg-shells until the next time she decides to leave, *AND SHE WILL LEAVE AGAIN*. Have no doubt.

Time for you to find your balls. I'm going through this myself right now after 11 years in a relationship that as I said, mirrors yours to a large degree.

Time to man up. Your wife will have to face the consequences of her actions, otherwise, why would she even think about returning to you? 

Your remorse, will get you nowhere. You didn't leave. SHE DID.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

Aside from not comforting her when she was obviously upset about the pregnancy scare do you have any examples of emotional abuse??? Because although not comforting her was a really crappy thing to do, I don't think it warrants the title emotionally abusive. Where is such a strong negative word like that coming from?? You sound more like a pushover than an emotional abuser.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Do you believe you were ever crazy-making or gaslighting your wife in any way? Since you said she had severe mood swings before she went off her BC, I am not thinking it's related - which was what my mind initially thought).

Gaslighting and crazy-making can definitely help the partner into their highly intense emotional reaction... I know, my husband does this to me... And furthermore, eggs me on, kicks me while I'm down and continues to insult and upset me while I'm having my crazy moments...

Just a thought. From a woman's POV it seems like she is done, for one reason or another.

I'm so sorry this is happening in your life right now... Wishing you all the best...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks for the quick reply Synthetic. I just completely fell apart when I read that. I don't know if she has any of the serious issues you mentioned and any time I've thought about it I've told myself to stop because I felt I was unfairly blaming her. 

I do know that most of the time in our marriage she worked incredibly hard at our relationship (far more than me) and then it has all just stopped which is incredibly hard to take. 

I'm going to find the book you mentioned and read it tonight.
M


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

MrsOldNews said:


> Aside from not comforting her when she was obviously upset about the pregnancy scare do you have any examples of emotional abuse??? Because although not comforting her was a really crappy thing to do, I don't think it warrants the title emotionally abusive. Where is such a strong negative word like that coming from?? You sound more like a pushover than an emotional abuser.


I was often extremely cold with her as if trying to always be in control. I would often refuse to go out with her to meet friends and family for no reason. I certainly didn't congratulate her enough when she achieved great things eg she finished a 10km run and I didn't even bother going to see her at the end - She told me that was fine but that's not the point I should have been there. 
Things like that....


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I do know that most of the time in our marriage she worked incredibly hard at our relationship (far more than me) and then it has all just stopped which is incredibly hard to take.


Don't believe that without first clearing the fog around your head.

This is something she has most likely convinced you to think. I'm almost certain it's not true. I used to think the same and felt extremely guilty. It took a lot of self-reflection and fog-clearing to finally realize that the opposite was true.

Does your wife tend to think in 'black' or 'white' terms about most things and people? Does she almost always complain about some sort of a pain in her body or headache or tiredness? Does she have trouble trusting people? Does she look and sound fake (not herself) in front of strangers? Does she treat you like a child?

How was her childhood?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> I was often extremely cold with her as if trying to always be in control. I would often refuse to go out with her to meet friends and family for no reason. I certainly didn't congratulate her enough when she achieved great things eg she finished a 10km run and I didn't even bother going to see her at the end - She told me that was fine but that's not the point I should have been there.
> Things like that....


Were you cold to her because you resented her for something? Did you feel like less of a man than you actually are? 

Answer these questions now and then come back in 2 weeks to see if your answers still hold true.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Does your wife tend to think in 'black' or 'white' terms about most things and people? 
-Yes, 100%. I often had to turn of TV programs about politics as she would get so angry that she would just start shouting her opinions at the screen.

Does she almost always complain about some sort of a pain in her body or headache or tiredness? 
-Yes, migraines.

Does she have trouble trusting people? 
-Yes, constantly in fear of someone doing something to harm her or her family. 

Does she look and sound fake (not herself) in front of strangers? 
-No, not really. Nothing that couldn't be explained by a little self conciousness.

Does she treat you like a child?
-Yes. Often would tell me what I should do but I quite often resisted which would generally cause a big sulking session on her behalf. 

How was her childhood?
-Like I said massively overbearing, sulky, moody mother. Father committed adultery when she was young and this affected her severely. Mother and Father stayed together and made her the apple of their eye. Her brother was basically ignored because of it.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Were you cold to her because you resented her for something? 
I don't think so. Generally I was cold because I just couldn't adequately express my frustration with her during an argument so just bottled it up. I guess I was afraid that if I told her what I really thought then she couldn't have taken it and the relationship would have ended sooner.

Did you feel like less of a man than you actually are? 
Well, I certainly didn't feel as bad as I do now! Seriously though, I definitely felt extremely guilty if I had been cold towards her and would always apologise profusely no matter what the cause of the issue.

Oh, and just to clarify there was absolutely never any physical abuse in our marriage. She once got so angry with me during an argument (I can't remember about what) that I had to ask her very calmly to put the kitchen knife in her hand down but that only happened once.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

YinPrincess said:


> Do you believe you were ever crazy-making or gaslighting your wife in any way?


I think I definitely had my moments of crazy-making. I would get very annoyed if she went out without me (even though often I would have refused to go anyway) and then didn't get home by 10.30 ish. I had really tried hard to stop doing that over the last year or so though because I knew it wasn't fair and I felt our relationship was strong enough for me not to feel worried about her being out.

I just can't believe she could just up and walk away. I look around our house and we've built a home here. The cupboards are full of groceries, her makeup and jewelery are still on her dresser. All the wedding photos are still up on the wall. Her garden that she worked so hard at is now starting to blossom.


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## MmHo (Mar 29, 2012)

Having been married to a very abusive husband with Borderline Personality Disorder what you are describing is not a woman with this condition. Her depression and mood swings could be caused by having to take birth control meds..... but probably her depression could have been caused by your treatment of her and I think there is probably more to your story than you are telling here. You say you drank a bit too much, brought home your problems from work and was moody and negative towards her.... WHY? This sort of behaviour will send anyone into a depression.
How much of this stuff did you expect your wife to take before she called it a day?

You however say that you know that your wife has been a good wife on the whole and you admit that she put more effort into the marriage than you did.

You mention a number of times the support you have chosen not to give to your wife, your dislike of her going out of the house without you. These are passive aggressive and controlling issues that you have and I can see that your wife got completely worn down by you.

She has had a troubled childhood and has probably made her a very sensitive person with low self esteem already then she has you to make her feel even worse..... and could not cope with your difficult behaviour.... because you are a difficult personality right?

Your way of showing her love by taking her out for a very expensive meal once in a while will not repair the damage to her already low self esteem. She loved you and wanted to trust you with her emotional wellbeing and you let her down a lot.

There are lots of people shout at the TV.... folk watching football, Formula One, boxing, atheletics... this is not abnormal behaviour...in many cases its a way of releasing built up tension related to something else going on in people's lives. She does not have a personality disorder because she gets irate at politics on TV!!

I am sorry if this sounds harsh but you have driven her away with your controlling, passive aggressive and unsupportive behavior and you did not trust her.

It will take months of you being in therapy to realise the part you played in the break up of your marriage. I admire you for having the courage to do that but please be honest with yourself and admit that you had a big part in the break up of your marriage.

I hope you can work things out with your wife and learn that she needs love, respect and support and nothing less will do.

Good Luck


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks for taking the time to reply MmHo. Like I said previously, I have always tried not to blame her or a personality disorder for my actions. In fact, I agree with almost all of what you wrote. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to explain why I acted like I did and I do feel terrible about it. Believe me when I say I am under no illusions as to my role in this situation. This has been an incredibly powerful wake up call to me and is the reason why I have not tried to contact her as she asked.

I read the book which Synthetic recommended and there were definitely some very familiar themes in it. Unfortunately, it has just left me confused. My being inwardly focussed and not working on the relationship may well have killed it and I never wanted that to happen. Whilst I may be misinterpreting the book due to my emotions, it seems to be saying that I need to focus on everything in my life but my marriage and then that will fix itself (or won't if things have progressed too far). This is pretty much counter to everything that I want to do at the moment.

M


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

wow 

you could be my H (you're not are you??)

it's very difficult to live with someone who gives you nothing in the way of emotional support (despite demanding almost constant attention themselves)

however you appear to have insight (you're definitely not my H) so there is hope for you yet!

good luck in getting your marriage back on track - mine was dead for a good while before it all ended. I just stopped liking him as a person even though I still felt love for him, someone who is supposed to be your best friend and life partner just shouldn't treat you that way. 

give your wife some time, I hope she comes round x


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

synthetic said:


> mab1,
> 
> 
> 6. Before you do anything else, read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". See a scary image of yourself in that book and start working on yourself.
> ...


I bought "No More Mr Nice Guy" off Amazon, it arrived today, I wrapped it up, and I'm giving it to my STBXH as a housewarming present when he moves out of my house into his own apartment next week.

Who knows... maybe miracles will occur and he will finally look at himself, face up to what he's done, grow a spine, set boundaries with everyone, and be someone I can respect again. Because my respect left years ago when he showed he was a spineless wimp. For years I watched his BPD mother, cousins, "friends" and everyone in between walk all over him, treat him badly, treat me really badly and him sit there and take it with a smile.


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## ScottH454 (Jun 3, 2012)

This thread is working for mee too, was ready to take full blame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks Dolly,
Do you have any tips for what not to do in this situation? I'm not contacting her for both our sakes but I just feel like I'm hiding/waiting rather than taking positive steps.

STBXH - I hate those letters. One month ago I didn't know what they stood for and now they are practically an obsession...


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

thing is by not contacting her you're doing exactly what she's expecting, that is, she is probably still thinking you're emotionally detached and perhaps not that bothered

I'm not telling you to stalk her or anything but phone her, get her to meet you face to face, tell her what you've told us, show her you're willing to change and you want to save your marriage

I think you have to make the first step my friend


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

Getting my 2 x 4 out here..



> A few months ago everything appeared okay. You went out on a nice date.
> Three months ago you were talking about having a child together.
> She went off birth control


Sounds like a nice marriage.



> Since then she has_ lost loads of weight_
> 
> Has _become obsessed by her job _which she is really enjoying at the moment.
> 
> _Generally seemed to be in a great mood_.





> However, last month her period was later than expected and she lost it. She was crying her eyes out and told me she never wanted kids and that she would have an abortion if she could but wouldn't *because it was mine.*


Did she actually use those words?


> We have problems and I think we should separate.
> I* love my work and I don't even want to be here*.
> You've* isolated me* from my friends and family.


I love you but not in love with you?



> "I don't know what has changed but a switch has been flicked and I don't love you anymore"


*I suspect she has had an emotional affair.
*
Sorry but..

Any more red flags in here and it would look like the May Day parade.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Dollystanford said:


> thing is by not contacting her you're doing exactly what she's expecting, that is, she is probably still thinking you're emotionally detached and perhaps not that bothered
> 
> I'm not telling you to stalk her or anything but phone her, get her to meet you face to face, tell her what you've told us, show her you're willing to change and you want to save your marriage
> 
> I think you have to make the first step my friend


Thanks Dolly,
In the couple of times we spoke I told her that I don't want to divorce and that I have acknowledged and am willing to take responsibility for my issues but if she has asked me not to contact her isn't it a bit disrespectful to ignore her wishes?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

ing said:


> Did she actually use those words?
> Yes. Word for word...
> 
> She didn't say the "love you, not in love" words. Just said she was tired of all the negativity and that she didn't think she loved me anymore.
> ...


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

OK, now I'm utterly conflicted. Contact her or not? The books and the guys say no, the women say yes :scratchhead:. I hate this so much, I can't focus at work and I'm certainly not ready to 'let go' so I'll probably come over as desperate (which I am). Surely that will just make things worse not better...

FWIW the mutual friend she stayed with told me not to push things on Saturday but now I am torturing myself with thoughts of emotional/real affairs she may/may not have had.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

*"You've isolated me from my friends and family."*

Oh yeah I've heard that one flung at me more times than I can remember.... WTH?


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## Traggy (Jan 26, 2012)

The worst possible thing you can do when going through this is to try and figure out why she left.

She left you, if she has issues, it is not going to change anything other than giving you some self defeating purpose to try and fix her, which will not work because people that do suffer from these issues have to realize it themselves and seek out help themselves. 

I went down this dark road and all it did was make me take focus off of my flaws and issues and push blame onto them entirely. 

Look inside yourself. Take care of you. She left. If she wanted to be there with you she would be there. This is all you really need to focus on.


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## ScottH454 (Jun 3, 2012)

synthetic, what did it mean if she complained about chronic pain. Mine had constantly every day one thing after another an no matter how much she went to the doctor an got tested they could never figure out what was wrong. I called her a hypochondriac an stopped taking her seriously.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I called her a hypochondriac an stopped taking her seriously.


It's one of the less talked about aspects of high functioning people with personality disorders. They are indeed hypochondriacs, but in a selfish immoral way.

They're fully aware that their pain is nothing to worry much about or to upset the atmosphere for, but it gives them ammunition to put you in a weak spot as a 'care taker'. It's always about having the upper hand for them. As long as they have the upper hand, they can be very loving, empathetic and contributing. The moment they lose that control or 'victim status', they will rip your heart apart like you are their worst enemy.

These things happen so subtly and slowly most people don't even realize it until they've become completely codependent and obsessed with the disordered individual.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

synthetic said:


> It's one of the less talked about aspects of high functioning people with personality disorders. They are indeed hypochondriacs, but in a selfish immoral way.
> 
> They're fully aware that their pain is nothing to worry much about or to upset the atmosphere for, but it gives them ammunition to put you in a weak spot as a 'care taker'. It's always about having the upper hand for them. As long as they have the upper hand, they can be very loving, empathetic and contributing. The moment they lose that control or 'victim status', they will rip your heart apart like you are their worst enemy.


Oh yeah... fits my BPD mother in law from hell to a T. I was wonderful as long as I catered to her constant complaints and non-existent medical ailments.

Once I called her out on her behaviour she turned and tore me to shreds. She has bad mouthed me to everyone in the extended family, her church (thats a laugh what a good christian).. facebook vilifications. I have half the family not talking to me because she is so convincing she is a victim and I am evil.

Truly a SICK person. Unfortunately my husband is affilcted with the same sickness as her....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Traggy said:


> The worst possible thing you can do when going through this is to try and figure out why she left.
> 
> She left you, if she has issues, it is not going to change anything other than giving you some self defeating purpose to try and fix her, which will not work because people that do suffer from these issues have to realize it themselves and seek out help themselves.
> 
> ...


Even if you COULD read their mind and nail down exactly "why" they left, it wouldn't do you a damned bit of good.

They left because they WANTED TO LEAVE.

That's why people do what they do.

People do not do that which they do not wish to do.

Pretty simple.

The most contructive thing you can do - as Traggy points out - is get about understanding yourself. Your triggers. Your shortcomings. Your neediness.

Take all those things out back and shoot them down.

Then you will be ready to move on - and BY THEN - you will have insight like never before, so you'll be ready.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Traggy said:


> The worst possible thing you can do when going through this is to try and figure out why she left.
> 
> She left you, if she has issues, it is not going to change anything other than giving you some self defeating purpose to try and fix her, which will not work because people that do suffer from these issues have to realize it themselves and seek out help themselves.
> 
> ...


Thanks Traggy, 
I seem to find the afternoons the worst, maybe because I'm mentally preparing to go home to a life that physically doesn't exist anymore. I almost drove round to her work to talk to her but finally managed to bring myself under control and didn't. I really don't want to but I think I'll have to go and get some legal advice tomorrow  Hope for the best and prepare for the worst etc...it just feels so wrong to give up so quickly especially when I've offered to keep the door open, address my issues etc and to me that's what legal advice represents - giving up. I know I have issues but if we can't address them together then I'll have to do it on my own. It just feels like I'm betraying the marriage when she's the one who left...

I would also like to says thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this thread. There are some really great people out there, I really appreciate your help.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

You probably know by now that you do need to address your issues ON YOUR OWN regardless of whether she wants to do MC...just want to make sure that is clear. If she does not do her own therapy, she will be the ultimate loser. You will learn, grow, grieve, and come out of this emotionally healthier and happier. When things get tough and you miss her, please keep this thought in mind. It has helped me to pity my stbxh, as I have not been able to maintain anger at him. He doesn't even realize how his emotional distress has been the source of every major problem in his life, and I deserve to he with someone who "gets it". So do you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

synthetic said:


> It's one of the less talked about aspects of high functioning people with personality disorders. They are indeed hypochondriacs, but in a selfish immoral way.
> 
> They're fully aware that their pain is nothing to worry much about or to upset the atmosphere for, but it gives them ammunition to put you in a weak spot as a 'care taker'. It's always about having the upper hand for them. As long as they have the upper hand, they can be very loving, empathetic and contributing. The moment they lose that control or 'victim status', they will rip your heart apart like you are their worst enemy.
> 
> These things happen so subtly and slowly most people don't even realize it until they've become completely codependent and obsessed with the disordered individual.


Just had one of those TAM moments.. My Ex started getting cancer scares. About one terminal illness per year. Off to the Doctors, specialists, scans. The first two times I was deeply worried. On all occasions there was nothing at all wrong with her. The last one I ignored and she left me. it is a terrible way to live. During the last year of separation there was another one. I ignored it totally. She hates me for so many things..

This thread reminds me of my previous life. Better to get a new one and break the co-dependancy. It hurts and it is awful to realize that you became this person.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

If I was on another board I would say that the EA has gone physical some time ago, with a work mate
. 
The scare about the baby? Why would she even say "because its yours" She has doubt that is might not be? She certainly does not want a family with you. 

The long enjoyable work days in a great mood when returning. She so loves her "work" that she likes to be with "work" than you..

You have isolated her? 
Classic cheater lines which are meant to make you feel bad.
I bet you are controlling too.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

ing said:


> If I was on another board I would say that the EA has gone physical some time ago, with a work mate
> .
> The scare about the baby? Why would she even say "because its yours" She has doubt that is might not be? She certainly does not want a family with you.
> 
> ...


I know I have been controlling. There seems to have been a lot wrong with our relationship on both sides but I'm willing to try and address it and build a better life together. I guess it takes two people to do this though so whilst she's not talking and I'm unsure whether to initiate contact there's only one thing for it. Seeing an IC this evening and ringing legal this morning. 
The only thing about the EA turning into PA is that I know that due to her dad her attitude on affairs is set in stone. She just wouldn't do it and what with our friend saying there isn't anyone else I'm pretty certain it is only EA for now. Who knows in a week or two? 
Made a bit of a mess on facebook last night. Tried to change my status to separated, then tried to change it back to married as I didn't want to rock the boat. Only when I did that it sent a request to her to confirm it! Changed it back to separated then deleted it altogether. Definitely some underlying stuff to talk over with an IC there 
So, can anyone give me some advice as to what to do at the weekends? I don't have many close friends around due to being in a codependant marriage for so long and I really don't want to go and sit in a bar as I'm not drinking. There's only so much time I can spend in the gym. My best mate lives across town but I don't want to impose on him constantly, he has his own life to lead. I don't even know where to start building a new life...


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

ing said:


> The scare about the baby? Why would she even say "because its yours" She has doubt that is might not be? She certainly does not want a family with you.


I never even gave it a second thought, she was so upset that I just took it as an honest statement about how she would do it for me because she loved me. She has never wanted kids since I met her but she had agreed to try for me. Thing is that since this has happened I'm not even sure I want kids having spent three days with my brothers newborn and two year old. Yet another thing that I want to say to her but now can't!



ing said:


> The long enjoyable work days in a great mood when returning. She so loves her "work" that she likes to be with "work" than you..


Again, I never gave it a thought. We are both scientists who work in really interesting areas (she is in neuroscience and I study cardiac disease). Long hours are the norm and as you have to be very self-motivated to do the job it didn't seem strange. We had settled into a relatively comfortable rut but once she came off the birth control and lost a load of weight we were really getting on well. I started hitting the gym, the sex life was better than it had been for years. Now I know that the weight loss and increased sex drive are classic pointers but I was enjoying myself damnit! I trusted her and was happy that she was happy. Then I started a stupid argument, maybe to try and maintain some control, I don't know. From that point on it's all been downhill. 
After we split, she and I spoke on the phone and we talked about us a lot obviously. She said that I was saying all the right things but that she just wasn't sure. It almost sounded like she felt she couldn't trust me to change. When we saw each other two days later I almost felt like she was trying not to feel anything for me to shield herself but she did promise to spend some time together before she made 'her decision'. What she was deciding I'm not sure, MC? Moving back? It seemed like she was reconsidering things anyway. 
I'm really confused, I want to try and sort things between us but I now can't ignore all the hurt that I'm feeling. The no more mr nice guy book has got me a bit riled too as this behaviour is unacceptable but I know I have a lot to do with it in the first place. I desperately want to talk to her but I know she has a direct channel to my heart which has the potential to devastate me and that scares me witless.


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## Set me FREE (Sep 5, 2011)

Just a question....were the 20 pounds lost perhaps the 20lbs gained when she went on birth control? As far as loving work...she is in an interesting and probably highly satisfying/exciting field....did that coincide with some sort of new grant, new study, result coming back on some on going project? It's not like she is answering calls all day or folding sweaters for display shelves....if she suddenly loved that sort of job I'd be concerned.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Set me FREE said:


> Just a question....were the 20 pounds lost perhaps the 20lbs gained when she went on birth control? As far as loving work...she is in an interesting and probably highly satisfying/exciting field....did that coincide with some sort of new grant, new study, result coming back on some on going project? It's not like she is answering calls all day or folding sweaters for display shelves....if she suddenly loved that sort of job I'd be concerned.


I think it was loss of weight put on by the birth control. Regarding the work thing she is just about to start on working on a new grant that she worked really hard to get the money for. As a result I wasn't phased at all when she started spending more time at work because she has been setting things up in preparation for it. Obviously, she is highly excited by that and then there is me being miserable about my job, passive aggressive and controling and generally not fun to be around. I would just really love a chance to show my support for her but instead I'm told not to contact her as she tries to convince herself that her life is better without me in it...


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Wow, even I found that last post wimpy!


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Wow, what a noticeable difference between the male and female responders in this thread, in general. Having come out of an emotionally abusive relationship, I certainly don't think your problem (going by your descriptions of your actions and behavior) was not being 'alpha' enough. 
Don't underestimate the effect of alcohol on your words and actions. You can never really know what you were like when you drank 'a bit too much' because you were impaired. If you already had controlling tendencies (by your own admission) it's doubtful that alcohol made those go away.

Depression is a well-known side effect of hormonal BC methods. Pretty much every woman I know who was doing the shots had to go on an anti-depressant to combat that side effect. Migraines are not something to take lightly. They are often stress induced, and they can also be related to hormones, among many other triggers. Fibromyalgia is thought to be a physical manifestation of depression -- and the main part of that is body pain. Until you've had it, don't be so quick to call someone a hypochondriac (and I'm talking to you, ScottH). 

I am split from someone who was definitely emotionally abusive, major depressive, OCD, and personality disordered. Your wife really does not sound like a Borderline from your description. Try reading the articles on BPD here, or look up posts on TAM by Uptown. There you will see a lot of the symptoms and you can really see if this sounds like your wife.

She gave in and tried for a baby she didn't want. That is not fair to her. It was her body that was going to be permanently affected by that, not to mention her life in general. I can see where she would have the kind of anguish she did, trying to choose between your wishes and what she chose for her life (NOT to be a mother). It in no way proves she was unfaithful.

All in all, I wouldn't be so quick to think she's cheating. Maybe she's looking now because she's finished with the marriage, however. She may have had an epiphany and realized how much her home life led to her misery. Maybe she became obsessed with her job because she couldn't do anything about her home life to make it better. 

Except to get out. Nobody can underestimate the damage that years of emotionally abusive behavior can do. It is not less than physical abuse, it is different. It goes deep and affects the soul. It takes a lot of guts to walk away and start over on your own if you've become co-dependent, or if you've been abused. I can see why she is reluctant to come back. 

If you are truly committed to seeking therapy and changing (and it seems like you are, which is wonderful -- far too few abusers do this), stay with it. Do it for you, not just to get her back. It is sad to say, but she may not come back. The damage may have been too much. No one should blame an abused person for walking away. 

I loved my husband dearly and it is still very hard to believe we are done. But unless I knew he'd done the work to admit his abuse and work on himself, I would not ever consider going back. I, too, had physical symptoms. They 'magically' went away when I moved out. I was able to go cold turkey off medications I'd had to take for years, after I moved out. If she is going through a recovery, the changes she is experiencing are powerful.

I really hope this works out so that both of you are truly healthy and happy. Good luck to you.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> Wow, what a noticeable difference between the male and female responders in this thread, in general. Having come out of an emotionally abusive relationship, I certainly don't think your problem (going by your descriptions of your actions and behavior) was not being 'alpha' enough.
> Don't underestimate the effect of alcohol on your words and actions. You can never really know what you were like when you drank 'a bit too much' because you were impaired. If you already had controlling tendencies (by your own admission) it's doubtful that alcohol made those go away.
> 
> Depression is a well-known side effect of hormonal BC methods. Pretty much every woman I know who was doing the shots had to go on an anti-depressant to combat that side effect. Migraines are not something to take lightly. They are often stress induced, and they can also be related to hormones, among many other triggers. Fibromyalgia is thought to be a physical manifestation of depression -- and the main part of that is body pain. Until you've had it, don't be so quick to call someone a hypochondriac (and I'm talking to you, ScottH).
> ...


Thanks angelpixie, that certainly has given me plenty to think about. Not particularly optimism-inducing but helpful nonetheless. When we spoke on the phone we did talk about the child issue and I did say that it was completely unfair as it was her body and apologised for putting her in such a horrible situation. As I say I'm definitely coming around to her viewpoint now! The question still remains though should I contact her or not?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

NO!

Not for a few weeks. The fog needs to clear.

Trust me I've been down this road before. She either misses you and acts on it or she doesn't. That's the only thing you need to know at this point and it won't come fast. You might not even want to wait that long. 

Don't forget:

SHE LEFT


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Leave the door open, mab1, but I don't think you need to go out of your way to contact her. Keep working on you, and let her keep working on her. She definitely should be going to IC to deal with her issues. If you 'bump into' each other, she will be able to see if the changes in you are real. But it will probably take time. 

It took time to build up, it will take time to heal -- and that's with hard work on both of your parts.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Don't believe that without first clearing the fog around your head.
> 
> This is something she has most likely convinced you to think. I'm almost certain it's not true. I used to think the same and felt extremely guilty. It took a lot of self-reflection and fog-clearing to finally realize that the opposite was true.
> 
> ...


Wow.. I never even thought about this. My stbxw is constantly complaining of migraines or leg problems. Makes total sense.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

I just want to add the caveat that aches, tiredness and such are also a symptom of depression and anxiety disorders, so please do not take this out of context. Personality disorders, well all disorders, can only be diagnosed if a certain number of criteria are reached. Many people meet two, three or four but not enough, which can still indicate childhood trauma but isn't the same as a full blown disorder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> I just want to add the caveat that *aches, tiredness and such are also a symptom of depression and anxiety disorders, so please do not take this out of context. *Personality disorders, well all disorders, can only be diagnosed if a certain number of criteria are reached. Many people meet two, three or four but not enough, which can still indicate childhood trauma but isn't the same as a full blown disorder.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, yes, yes -- not to mention they are symptoms of good old-fashioned constant stress!


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> Yes, yes, yes -- not to mention they are symptoms of good old-fashioned constant stress!


Stress? What's stress??


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

]Okay. I have put my 4 x 2 away.

You need to clear your fog too. You are not responsible for her happiness . If she didn't want a baby she should have said so. If she was unhappy with you, she should have said so.

If you are really the emotionally abusive person you say you are then perhaps she did just walk away. 

Being accused of being controlling and emotionally abusive is classic cheater language for. "You are getting in the way of my affair. Stop asking questions! 
"Your invading my privacy" will be next.. 

It has nothing to do with if you were or not and everything to do with her wanting "space" to move on with her new life.

If she is still having an EA there is absolutely no point in talking to her about your relationship because she is talking to someone else about it.

Do not call. Do not beg, Do not plead and most of all.. Do not reason. You cannot reason someone into loving you.

Look here..


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

This is really upsetting me, so I just need to ask you guys a couple of questions:

Do you believe there is such a thing as emotional abuse?

If you do, do you think the abused party (male or female) is to be blamed for breaking up a marriage if they finally leave?

Do you think all claims of emotional abuse are code for 'I'm having an affair'?

Do you think all claims of physical pain or illness are symptoms of mental illness or personality disorder (in the absence of other DSM-IV criteria)?


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

angelpixie said:


> This is really upsetting me, so I just need to ask you guys a couple of questions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

ing said:


> His primary goal now should be to fix himself, for himself. this is why I posted a link to the 180.


I do totally agree with that. He can't make her seek help for her own issues. She has to choose that for herself.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

angelpixie,

Rarely any true abuse victim has the drive and confidence to leave a marriage in the fashion that a walk-away wife does.

They're very easy to distinguish.


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## Set me FREE (Sep 5, 2011)

synthetic said:


> angelpixie,
> 
> Rarely any true abuse victim has the drive and confidence to leave a marriage in the fashion that a walk-away wife does.
> 
> They're very easy to distinguish.


ughhhh.... many abuse victims leave on their own once they realize it's abuse and have put an exit plan in place..though it could take years. Though I strongly recommend involving the authorities in some way shape or form and press those charges when you are physically or sexually abused ....easier to protect those kids with documentation over hearsay during the custody battle. Much more help/assistance available to you if you leave via a domestic violence shelter....get out on your own and they assume you have things figured out.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

This NC thing is so hard. All I want to do is ring up and talk it over. It is taking every scrap of self discipline I have not to call. I think one of the reasons is that we used to talk every night (or almost every night) even when one of us was away and I always felt better afterwards. Bizarrely, I also want to ring to make sure she is OK and that she is coping. Is that caretaking? There is also the low self esteem/controling part of me saying that if I don't remind her I'm here she'll just be having such a great time that I'll always be sat here feeling like this. I can't even find a picture of me without her in it to put as a profile pic on Facebook!

OK, now I've got that out it's time to book a ticket for a show tonight...


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Set me FREE said:


> ughhhh.... many abuse victims leave on their own once they realize it's abuse and have put an exit plan in place..though it could take years. Though I strongly recommend involving the authorities in some way shape or form and press those charges when you are physically or sexually abused ....easier to protect those kids with documentation over hearsay during the custody battle. Much more help/assistance available to you if you leave via a domestic violence shelter....get out on your own and they assume you have things figured out.


I have looked into the 180 and I'm trying to do it but I've not been able to commit 100%, because I feel it would be a controlling behaviour on my behalf which is something I'm trying not to do. How can you do a 180 and keep the door open? Also what should I do if she rings me? A 180 says be business like whereas I'm trying to show that I'm actually trying to sort myself out.

As for having made a plan, I don't think she has one. She had no idea where to go after the IDLY conversation and only left because I forced (not physically!) the issue. Also I don't know that there is an EA going on. I strongly suspect there is (and that is suspicion is growing daily) but I have no concrete evidence.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Arrggh, panic stations. Just got to work and she has emailed me asking to meet tomorrow (Are you around to meet tomorrow morning/early afternoon? I can come to the house or we can meet somewhere else depending on what you'd prefer. Hope you're doing OK). Help!?! I don't feel ready for this, I'm so hoping to reconcile but it could just be so she can say there is no chance and to talk about houses and stuff. I don't know what to do...


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

It is hard, mab1, but the most important thing is to stay calm. This is going to sound hokey, but practice deep breathing -- just focus on your breathing and clear your mind until you are calm. If you have to do it while she's talking to you tomorrow, do it. 

She's probably been thinking a lot over these last few days, too. 

As for the 180 in your particular situation, you make good points. The same type of 180 doesn't work for everyone. In a true Borderline person, a 180 will be like 'out of sight, out of mind' for the WS. It helps them to put you behind them, for example. 

I would just try to be yourself, but the 'lite' version. If you are kind and caring, be that way, but not as overtly. If you usually have a good sense of humor, still be yourself, but pull it back. You're not being dishonest as to who you are, but you're not laying it on thick trying to show her you've changed and are trying to get her back. If she truly feels like she's been controlled by you, that will seem very manipulative, too. 

And you're still pretty early in your change process. 

The most important thing is to stay calm. And until tomorrow? Don't ruminate on this meeting. Distract yourself. It will help.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> It is hard, mab1, but the most important thing is to stay calm. This is going to sound hokey, but practice deep breathing -- just focus on your breathing and clear your mind until you are calm. If you have to do it while she's talking to you tomorrow, do it.
> 
> She's probably been thinking a lot over these last few days, too.
> 
> ...


Thanks Angelpixie, we're meeting for coffee. She was originally going to come home but I had second thoughts and asked to go somewhere neutral. Am trying to remain calm and relaxed. Not sure how I'll deal with a "I haven't changed my mind, it's over" but I guess we'll have to talk at some point. It's weird, I spent the last two weeks desperate to talk and now we get to do it face to face I'm absolutely petrified!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Hey mab1,

Your wife is taking a page out of my wife's book.

Your wife hasn't changed her mind at all. She's now in full-throttle mode. 

The best thing you can do for you own sanity (and for her) is to avoid contact for a few weeks. 

She's hot, you're even hotter in your head. There will be little fighting, but every single word exchanged will be hurtful. Your wife will specially be hurtful since she's trying very hard to paint you black in her own mind. Don't give her the venue to do that.

You have to go dark on her. Don't agree to meet or talk after this. Don't worry it won't kill you. It will give you your sense of control and sanity back. 

Read my thread in the private forum. I'm going through this exact thing right now.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Hey mab1,
> 
> Your wife is taking a page out of my wife's book.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm certainly working hard not to get my hopes up. I'm afraid I can't read your thread as I can't access the forum. Should I be expecting the worst?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Yes you should be expecting what you consider "the worst" in your mind right now.

Truth is, in a matter of a month or even less, you will no longer consider it "the worst" outcome. That was quite liberating for me and a true turning point. 

I started envisioning my life without her (this happened very recently btw) and it gave me a lot of relief. I realized I had other options. I realized I wasn't as unattractive, needy and sloppy as my wife had painted me.

I also realized I was not as controlling, abusive and neglectful as she claims. The interesting realization was that my wife actually KNOWS all this and still chose to hurt my feelings by making me feel like an inferior being. That helped me have less sympathy for her struggles.

You are a "fixer, rescuer" type. You are a "nice guy". An insecure, codependent person who is not utilizing his powers to live a healthy life. That's not your wife's fault. It's your fault. Your wife is simply abusing her knowledge of this to her own advantage. That part is on her and she will one day realize how wrong it was for her to do that.

Do not focus on your hopes for reconciliation. Trust me, I still have moments of hopes too. But I also realize that there's a life I can live without my wife that can also be fulfilling. Knowing that you can live a fulfilling life without your wife will give you ammunition to not focus on your wife's ever-changing attitude.

Rack up 8 more posts and then you can read my thread. You'll appreciate the similarities to your story.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Ok, so if this goes as I expect which is that she says nothing has changed, or that there is someone else, she wants out and wants to talk about selling the house etc how should I approach this? 
I know I'm still completely in the fog at the moment so am worried that I'll do something stupid. As far as I see it I have the following options:
A) Say OK, I'll get some legal advice on monday and then just be totally businesslike from then on. Extremely uninterested in this one!
B) Say OK, try and talk about it calmly without blame and see if there are any options we can explore.
C) Ask for a bit more time in the separation.
D) Just walk off and implement a full 180
E) Any other options?
Thanks
M


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

My prediction is that she will have thought about this meeting and discussed it with her EA partner. She is painting you as a controlling, abusive husband and they will have discussed how to "deal with you". 
See if you can derail the plan she has by immediately agreeing to it. Then talk about something else entirely. If I am right she will attempt to push a few buttons to get a reaction from you. Her words will be VERY hurtful and are deliberately so. It is fine to say. "That is a hurtful thing to say". but do not go off ya tree or revert to begging pleading or reasoning.
Again I hope I am wrong.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

synthetic said:


> Yes you should be expecting what you consider "the worst" in your mind right now.
> 
> Truth is, in a matter of a month or even less, you will no longer consider it "the worst" outcome. That was quite liberating for me and a true turning point.
> 
> ...


and the further you get away from it, the more you see it. It is quiet a revelation as to how much sh1t you put up with..


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Well, if that wasn't the wierdest, most painful but friendly afternoon ever. I had originally only decided to go for an hour but we ended up chatting for 2 1/2 hrs. 

Long story short (well not really short but...), she can't believe that I can change for the better as she has decided that based on previous stuff that I will just revert to how things were with respect to her family, kids, going out to events. Even though she admitted that she allowed that to happen and didn't say anything at the time. The grass is definitely greener as a single girl, but there is no one else (and she got quite irritated by my suggesting there was) as she wants to focus on herself. 

I got to hear about how everyone had reacted to her news. She played the martyr role as I hadn't apologised for not letting her stay in the house when she said she wanted to separate and that wasn't nice. I never apologised for anything I had ever done anyway. AND THEN SHE WOULDN'T TALK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE UNTIL I SAID SORRY! 

She wants to sell the house as it's not fair that she is in a one bed apartment and I'm in a nice house with a garden EVEN THOUGH SHE LEFT IT!!! Anyway having the house means that she is saying she might come back which she can't promise.

A letter I wrote in which I said I wanted to stay together to have more happy times was emotional blackmail. 

No one else she had spoken to could believe how much she did at home and how little I did - despite me looking after all the financial stuff. 

She talked about how unfair it was that I only talked about how hard I was finding it without her and I should have been more concerned about her feelings. 

We didn't approach things the same way and even though I was sorting myself out now I should have done it earlier because she did mention it would be a good idea six months ago and I avoided the issue. 

I wouldn't move to Singapore when she was offered a 1 year post at a ludicrously low salary, even though she'd never met the boss and I'd worked with him for two years (He's a good guy but it definitely wasn't a good career move). 

Without me she's free to move abroad, even though I've always wanted to move abroad, my job prospects are better than hers and she wouldn't go before anyway because of her family.

She's changed and wants to draw a line under things so if there is anyone else (despite her definitely not looking) then it won't be bad - I'm assuming that doesn't include me finding someone else!

It's really hard for her because she has no friends here anymore, but she does have time for herself now because she doesn't have to think about me which is really nice.

She won't consider any sort of MC, although I never asked explicitly which I should have (I have asked previously though). She wouldn't discuss divorce but would discuss the house. 
AND I SAT THERE AND TOOK IT!!!!! AND THEN GOT A THANK YOU FOR BEING SO NICE ABOUT IT ALL!!!!!

So, if I 180 I'll be bad for not contacting her. If I contact her I'll be impinging her space. It was even a problem I hadn't apologised for everything that happened when I was respecting the space she had asked for and hadn't contacted her.

And then we had a nice chat about how we were getting on and shopping and friends and family  And even after all this I was thinking how nice she looked and how much I had missed her! WTF is wrong with me!!!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Ok, so if this goes as I expect which is that she says nothing has changed, or that there is someone else, she wants out and wants to talk about selling the house etc how should I approach this?
> I know I'm still completely in the fog at the moment so am worried that I'll do something stupid. As far as I see it I have the following options:
> A) Say OK, I'll get some legal advice on monday and then just be totally businesslike from then on. Extremely uninterested in this one!
> B) Say OK, try and talk about it calmly without blame and see if there are any options we can explore.
> ...


None. Do exactly as ing said:

Agree to her crap, change the subject, walk away, GO FULL 180.

Do not sign or decide anything in the next 6 weeks (at least). It's very important for you to heal first.


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## Andy968 (Apr 29, 2012)

ing said:


> My prediction is that she will have thought about this meeting and discussed it with her EA partner. She is painting you as a controlling, abusive husband and they will have discussed how to "deal with you".
> See if you can derail the plan she has by immediately agreeing to it. Then talk about something else entirely. If I am right she will attempt to push a few buttons to get a reaction from you. Her words will be VERY hurtful and are deliberately so. It is fine to say. "That is a hurtful thing to say". but do not go off ya tree or revert to begging pleading or reasoning.
> Again I hope I am wrong.


Mab1... Alot of what ING predicted seems to have happened during your meeting.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1,

Your wife is doing and saying exactly as my wife did.

Take an advice from a guy who is a bit ahead of you in the exact same road. 

- DO NOT CONTACT HER. 
- DO NOT RESPOND TO HER TEXTS/CALLS/EMAILS for at least 2 weeks.

Please just do those 2 things and see what a huge difference they make. It sounds so simple, but man they turn the tides.


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## Andy968 (Apr 29, 2012)

Synthetic and ING, I appreciate the advice you two provide. Mab1's situ is so similar to mine and yours. Question... The walk away wives of "Nice Guys" allege they have been abused, controlled, hurt, yada, yada, yada. No doubt the negative behaviors of Nice Guys cause these feelings. Yet, the wives seem to know how to push the buttons of the "Nice Guys" which causes them to react in negatives ways. Isn't that a form of abuse as well toward the husband? I didn't consider my wife may have been manipulating my emotional hang ups to her advantage. Geesh, who's really the passive aggressive manipulator here? Are the Nice Guys actually being beat up without knowing it, and respond the only way they know how?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Andy968 said:


> Synthetic and ING, I appreciate the advice you two provide. Mab1's situ is so similar to mine and yours. Question... The walk away wives of "Nice Guys" allege they have been abused, controlled, hurt, yada, yada, yada. No doubt the negative behaviors of Nice Guys cause these feelings. Yet, the wives seem to know how to push the buttons of the "Nice Guys" which causes them to react in negatives ways. Isn't that a form of abuse as well toward the husband? I didn't consider my wife may have been manipulating my emotional hang ups to her advantage. Geesh, who's really the passive aggressive manipulator here? Are the Nice Guys actually being beat up without knowing it, and respond the only way they know how?


Absolutely.

At some point in your relationship you as the 'nice-guy' failed to establish the necessary boundaries. That's your fault, but over time your wife actually started to abuse the nonexistent boundaries to her selfish advantage. 

Don't ever forget: YOU ARE THE VICTIM OF SEVERE EMOTIONAL ABUSE. If anyone tells you otherwise, they're wrong.

A person who loses his self-confidence is almost always a victim of emotional abuse (partially his own fault). The sad thing is this abuse is inflicted by the very person who promised to be the protector of your vulnerabilities, a lover and stick by your side no matter what.


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## jenniferswe (Apr 23, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Does your wife tend to think in 'black' or 'white' terms about most things and people?
> -Yes, 100%. I often had to turn of TV programs about politics as she would get so angry that she would just start shouting her opinions at the screen.
> 
> Does she almost always complain about some sort of a pain in her body or headache or tiredness?
> ...


I came from a very dysfunctional family.I still have nightmares about my past. If your wife hasn't already, she needs get help with dealing with her past. this may be why she didn't want children because she is afraid she might end up treating them like her parents treated her. Being brought in a family in turmoil is very damaging.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Andy968 said:


> Synthetic and ING, I appreciate the advice you two provide. Mab1's situ is so similar to mine and yours. Question... The walk away wives of "Nice Guys" allege they have been abused, controlled, hurt, yada, yada, yada. No doubt the negative behaviors of Nice Guys cause these feelings. Yet, the wives seem to know how to push the buttons of the "Nice Guys" which causes them to react in negatives ways. Isn't that a form of abuse as well toward the husband? I didn't consider my wife may have been manipulating my emotional hang ups to her advantage. Geesh, who's really the passive aggressive manipulator here? Are the Nice Guys actually being beat up without knowing it, and respond the only way they know how?


Andy,

Co-dependent means "two"

Both are in it together.


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## Andy968 (Apr 29, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Andy,
> 
> Co-dependent means "two"
> 
> Both are in it together.


Mab1. Such a simple concept but so difficult to see when you are in the middle of it, which you are. Keep your chin up. Conrad's concise expertise always cuts to the chase. I love his saying "Get to 50,000 feet" and see things as they really are.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Righto, full 180 it is. She gets told how much she has to deposit in the bank account each month and then that is it.

It's all so unreal, she seemed to have it all worked out but when I write it all out/speak about it it's just plain mental.

I'll probably have been in the wrong by trying to change my attitude & sort myself out too as this won't fit with her nicely configured plan.

Oh, and she also told me how she hadn't worked out anything in advance and the only person she'd talked to was her mum about two days before. These are not the actions of a rational human being. This is going to be bad for a long while I think.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> None. Do exactly as ing said:
> 
> Agree to her crap, change the subject, walk away, GO FULL 180.
> 
> Do not sign or decide anything in the next 6 weeks (at least). It's very important for you to heal first.


Thanks synth, 

Does that mean I shouldn't go and get legal advice too?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Andy968 said:


> Mab1. Such a simple concept but so difficult to see when you are in the middle of it, which you are. Keep your chin up. Conrad's concise expertise always cuts to the chase. I love his saying "Get to 50,000 feet" and see things as they really are.


At 50000 feet it looks like a highly confused woman dumping on a bloke who has a speech bubble coming from his head saying "WTF!"


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> At 50000 feet it looks like a highly confused woman dumping on a bloke who has a speech bubble coming from his head saying "WTF!"


Are you ok with that?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Hell, No!


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

But what I can't work out is why I am still attracted to this fruitloop...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> But what I can't work out is why I am still attracted to this fruitloop...


You do realize that your brain has different compartments.

Your logical center (left brain) has already arrived. She's a "fruitloop".

Yet, your right brain (emotional center) quite often found her vulnerability attractive. This was an opportunity for you to be needed and earn love.

It takes awhile for your right brain to catch up.

That's why it's so helpful to climb up to 50,000 feet and observe her reactions as if you were meeting her for the first time.

Don't let her trigger you with insults or other personal stuff. Just tell her what you are - and are not - ok with.

Do it with dispassionate cool. No anger. No frustration.

Report back to us. We'll help evaluate your findings.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks Conrad, 

I think I'll be posting here for some time yet so all advice will be gratefully received. Right, I think that's 30 posts, I'm off to read synthetics thread!


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Oh, it still won't let me in. How do I access the private forum?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Oh, it still won't let me in. How do I access the private forum?


Here ye be:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/43925-i-should-just-divorce-her.html


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I just get this

mab1, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting email activation.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Log out and log back in.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Nope still not letting me in


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Nope still not letting me in


Clearing cookies on your computer may work also.

You can also appeal to the mods.

They're good folk.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

OK, tried a different browser and it didn't work. Will try contacting the Mods.


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## DaKarmaTrain! (May 17, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Don't believe that without first clearing the fog around your head.
> 
> This is something she has most likely convinced you to think. I'm almost certain it's not true. I used to think the same and felt extremely guilty. It took a lot of self-reflection and fog-clearing to finally realize that the opposite was true.
> 
> ...


Are you a psychologist or something synthetic? You are nailing my ex down to a T.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

DaKarmaTrain! said:


> Are you a psychologist or something synthetic? You are nailing my ex down to a T.


Not a psychologist or anything. Just the average "left behind spouse" of a person with Borderline Personality Disorder.

Your ex may end up being my next wife if I don't recognize and learn about the vulnerabilities that tend to attract me to such women.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

If you can't win no matter what you do, you might as well do what is best for you.

This seems to apply to you, MAB.

What is best for you?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Righto, full 180 it is. She gets told how much she has to deposit in the bank account each month and then that is it.
> 
> It's all so unreal, she seemed to have it all worked out but when I write it all out/speak about it it's just plain mental.
> 
> ...


Actually sod it, she can work out how much to deposit in the bank by herself...
Am so annoyed with myself at having apologised to her for getting to leave after her IDLY speech. That will never happen again. 
The worst thing she said to me was that since she'd decided to leave 'that she felt young again' and that 'she used to feel old because of me'. That hurt a lot as she never said a word about it before that and her advance into premature middle age had nothing to do with me, she was totally in control of it. Not sure if she is BPD but there is definitely a MLC going on.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> 'that she felt young again' and that 'she used to feel old because of me'


Both things were said by my wife when she left in January. 

It hurt so much.


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## DaKarmaTrain! (May 17, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Not a psychologist or anything. Just the average "left behind spouse" of a person with Borderline Personality Disorder.
> 
> Your ex may end up being my next wife if I don't recognize and learn about the vulnerabilities that tend to attract me to such women.


Buddy, you'd be out of the frying pan and into the industrial smelter if you went and hooked up with my ex


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Actually sod it, she can work out how much to deposit in the bank by herself...
> Am so annoyed with myself at having apologised to her for getting to leave after her IDLY speech. That will never happen again.
> The worst thing she said to me was that since she'd decided to leave 'that she felt young again' and that 'she used to feel old because of me'. That hurt a lot as she never said a word about it before that and her advance into premature middle age had nothing to do with me, she was totally in control of it. Not sure if she is BPD but there is definitely a MLC going on.


Allow me to explain.

Sometimes people feel trapped in a certain identity during marriage and fail to realize they can change this and are the cause of their own misery. Right now she's enjoying her freedom to do whatever she wants and live her delusion of how the grass *IS* greener. It won't take long for her to do everything she ever wanted at break-neck speed and have nothing left but boredom and time to look back on her decisions. 

I can't tell you she will come back or regret her decision anytime soon. You may be able to change her feelings about you and want to reconcile your friendship if you agree to her feelings, get your self out of pain and better your life, and be consistent in how well you treat her. Do all that and give her all the time in the world to *NOT* chase her, and she might start to miss you and want to keep in touch in six months to a few years.

I can't speak on her behalf, but just showing her you're willing to work on your marriage and change yourself *AND* mean it goes far beyond what any other man will do for her. Don't think for a second that another man will put up with the same sh!tty attitude you grew to know and love. That is what makes you special. "She's such a raging b!tch...... God I lover her!".


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

Nasty.
I am at a loss what to say because this is so much like my Exw. This is going to go on and on and on and on if you let it.

The main thing you have to do is protect yourself because you are now her enemy to her happiness and you are at fault for it.

She is talking to her mum and "all her other friends" and let me guess these are all single and divorced friends. The EA partner is in there too.. trust me, he is there..

She is going to hit every single venerability you have. Just as soon as you think you have sealed up that one, she will hit you with another.

Do not send emails to her. 
Do not talk to her.
Do not text her.
Do not look her up on Facebook
Do not write her letters.

She gets to run her own life. You have no part in it. You do NOTHING for her. 

You are aiming for Total Indifference. 

Let Go as fast as you can. You take up new interests, rekindle old ones, go out and listen to music. Buy new clothes, get a hair cut, move the furniture around. 
Take down the pictures on the wall you don't like.
Pack her stuff in boxes.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

ing said:


> Nasty.
> I am at a loss what to say because this is so much like my Exw. This is going to go on and on and on and on if you let it.
> 
> The main thing you have to do is protect yourself because you are now her enemy to her happiness and you are at fault for it.
> ...


So should I do anything about the house? All I can see is all the practicalities like what to do with the washing machine etc. 6 weeks ago I thought I had a strong marriage, who knows what will happen by the end of July?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> So should I do anything about the house? All I can see is all the practicalities like what to do with the washing machine etc. 6 weeks ago I thought I had a strong marriage, who knows what will happen by the end of July?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Take my approach. Don't do anything until you feel completely sane and in control.

You're not there yet, so do whatever you can to avoid contact with her and live your life as if she's gone on an overseas trip.

Do this for at least 3-4 weeks and then reevaluate the situation. In the mean time she will try to hurt and control you if you allow it. Look at what I'm going through with my wife right now. It's so painful I hate it, but having done things differently in the past, I know I'm hurting a bit less this time and am actually making logical progress instead of feeding my emotional inner-child who wants nothing but instant gratification and always gets me in deep sh**


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Am now feeling really angry at myself for not saying anything to defend myself. At one point I even said she had to do what she felt was right. So, I've basically given her permission to do it all. All I want to do at the moment is tell her how it is definitely not alright and that she needs to get help asap. I guess that would make me the bad guy again too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

You better not! Believe it or not you did do the right thing. You agreed with what she wants and accepted the situation as one you cannot possible control. Let her make the next move all on her own. And you! Stay consistent. If you back out of what you said and complain you will only lose her respect and seem like a controlling crazy @$$hole. You're happy with her being happy right? Don't screw it up!


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

There is no rush for you to sort out the house, the washing machine, the rubbish removal. You are going to have enough to worry about with the practicalities of the house without worrying about what she wants. She is not your priority. It is her choice to move out. 

Sure you may think that she has gone totally mad but there is nothing you can do about it. All you can do is let go.
If you haven't already..
Split the money 50/50 into a new account in your name only
Cancel joint credit cards.
Cancel joint health insurance if you have it.
Cancel any joint anything.. 

This is going to take time whatever happens and you will fail at the 180 from time to time. We all did!
When you do post here rather than going off and beating yourself up. 

It is a horrible, horrible time but know that the faster you become yourself the faster you will heal. It will get better.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

We always kept money stuff quite separate. The only thing I think she can get to is a joint current account which pays the mortgage and bills. I originally took my half out but then replaced it because I felt it was childish. She thanked me for trusting her on that yesterday. Rational part says withdraw, emotional part says give her trust and hope her mental state hasn't altered enough to directly (obviously she is indirectly trying by wanting to sell the house) screw me over financially too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Trust her financially for now. they're usually very egotistical at this stage and wouldn't want to come off as moochers. they attempt to do it all on their own to prove to themselves that they don't. need u. when things get rough down the road and they see u truly moving on they become vicious. so be very cool and respectful u with little to no contact until you're ready for the real divorce battle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Oh and whilst I remember after all that BS about feeling young she told me she was going to bed at 9 and waking at 4. I'm pretty certain they're the same sleep patterns as my Gran  And one final thing, she now may want kids one day. She was certainly on a mission yesterday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Spent all morning sorting out the garden. Found it really tough as it was all her hard work which built it. I helped with the big jobs but she did the rest because she really liked it. Can't believe she turned her back on it overnight. Am now wavering on a full 180 because the garden just brings back nice memories of her being happy. Won't a 180 just convince her that her delusions about me are in fact correct. Two weeks no contact was bad enough how will it be in 6?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Oh my, I just had an epiphany whilst washing the car. I don't think she is a vanilla BPD, I think they should probably do studies on her! And sorry synth, conrad and everyone you're probably not going to be very impressed by all the thought I 've been giving her here 
I was working through the way we met and what brought us together and saw a pattern emerging.

As a young child she had the affair trauma and all encompassing support of her family.

As a schoolkid she was seriously bullied, had a few fairly close friends, but had all encompassing family support. 

When school ends, she dumps the friends and heads to uni. She is a bit of a party girl, had a few close friends but is generally unhappy. 

She finishes uni, dumps her friends, and starts work as an office temp because that is the only way she can 'escape her unhappiness' but still has all encompassing family support. Hates the job and decides to go back to school to get a PhD. 

Starts PhD, meets me, reinvents herself as superwife, has a few close friends and all encompassing family support. Finishes PhD with strong support from me and so that buys me a few years leaway. She dumps her friends, works in a lab she doesn't enjoy and then decides she is going to start her own lab with all encompassing support from family and me. 

Surprisingly, given her history her idea fails and she starts talking about joining the army for routine or moving to singapore which I point out isn't a great idea. So, chastened, she reworks her idea with help from the head of the lab she didn't like and gets funding. She again dumps her friends but still has all encompassing support from family and me. 

Before this funding starts however she has to do a intermediate job so she can keep playing superwife. Her new funding starts in July, and what she is doing now continues the same pattern, she is dumping her past ie me (the friends have already gone) to start something new with all encompassing family support. 

Bear in mind this is an extremely intelligent woman, who is 
having to reinvent herself every few years and is practically always rewarded for doing so. She got a PhD this way so she can carry this on for a good while. It also explains why she doesn't want kids, she can't reinvent herself if she has someone she has to look after. 
Her current desire to sell the house quickly and move on immediately is a way of jettisoning her past. Anyone who impedes her ie me is an irritant who will be dealt with harshly. If I sell the house it's what she wants and she will move on. If I 180, don't sell the house and take time to think then I am stopping her process and things will get ugly. 
The only difference this time around is that she has never had guilt to deal with before and divorce doesn't match with her all encompassing family thing. So, I am painted as the root of all evil in the world, and together with her enabling family she is able to ignore the whole divorce issue until I press it. At which point it is not her fault and so it is ok. 

Unfortunately, I fell in love with her when she was reinventing herself and now she is doing it again I am finding her captivating. Throw in all the good memories over the years, of which there are lots, and I think I am going to be in a funk for a while. 
Also if I am right is there anyway to help her? Should I run straight to the lawyers office on monday? Or am I actually just trying to impose a logical argument on an irrational situation?

Time to reread NMNG again!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

She's a high functioning disordered person.


She is never 'settled'. Always in search of 'new' and 'better', but in a destructive way when it comes to family and friends. Such people cannot distinguish between work and home life. They apply their career and education ambitions to their family life which always results in very sudden and nasty ending of relationships (with friends, boyfriends, husbands...)

She's running away from her internal fears and shame.

Did you read about my wife's educational and career past? She's been almost the same as your wife.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> She's a high functioning disordered person.
> 
> 
> She is never 'settled'. Always in search of 'new' and 'better', but in a destructive way when it comes to family and friends. Such people cannot distinguish between work and home life. They apply their career and education ambitions to their family life which always results in very sudden and nasty ending of relationships (with friends, boyfriends, husbands...)
> ...


Sounds uncanily like what is happening to me. But, before I run to get the divorce papers how can I know it is not me trying to rationalise a super-stressful situation by blaming someone else?

The really sad thing is that I doubt that she will succeed in her new persona of super-neuroscientist because she isn't actually as smart as she thinks she is (obviously I never said that to her!)


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Sounds uncanily like what is happening to me. But, before I run to get the divorce papers how can I know it is not me trying to rationalise a super-stressful situation by blaming someone else?
> 
> The really sad thing is that I doubt that she will succeed in her new persona of super-neuroscientist because she isn't actually as smart as she thinks she is (obviously I never said that to her!)


You should not just doubt, you can be certain this next journey is just another phase. You were just a phase to her too. 

I have such a hard time accepting this very painful fact. I was just a phase to her. She will go through many more phases in her life and may not even remember much about her 11 year relationship with me. I'm having such a crappy day trying to digest this bitter reality.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Me too. I'm sort of numb from realising it. I am actually really close to going to sort the divorce out tomorrow but want to go and see my IC first. It's as if every single good thing I believed in during our marriage wasn't real it was just a symptom. So, if that's true then what is it about me that made me ignore all the warning signs?

Also, if she is BPD does a legal letter kick off all sorts of abandonment stuff? What does a 180 do to them?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> Also, if she is BPD does a legal letter kick off all sorts of abandonment stuff? What does a 180 do to them?


Yes, but your wife is high functioning with a huge ego. She will most likely act on her feeling of 'abandonment' irrationally. She will try to hurt and control you, then when she fails she will try to reengage you by being nice (never truly remorseful). 

Go to BPDfamily.com and see how these divorces/break-ups cycle over and over until the person who is not a Borderline is broken into pieces and left with life-lasting scars. 

You and I won't have it easy my man. I've already submitted to that.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Me too. I'm sort of numb from realising it. I am actually really close to going to sort the divorce out tomorrow but want to go and see my IC first. It's as if every single good thing I believed in during our marriage wasn't real it was just a symptom. So, if that's true then what is it about me that made me ignore all the warning signs?
> 
> Also, if she is BPD does a legal letter kick off all sorts of abandonment stuff? What does a 180 do to them?


Same thing it was about most of us.

We were needy.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I thought I was doing ok until I saw her. Now I'm back to square 1 and can't let go. I started breaking down in tears again. The insecurity and abandonment issues are back and stronger than before. I know I can't accept what she is proposing but I'm completely all over the place. Is it too soon to consider filing if I can't think straight?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Just back from IC. Her viewpoint - 'Man up', stop letting her walk all over you, don't sell the house. If she is living in some fantasy world then let her live it but don't help her in anyway. Stop avoiding conflict, if you're not happy about something say it. I mean what's the worst that could happen she leaves, oh yeah she did that already!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Just back from IC. Her viewpoint - 'Man up', stop letting her walk all over you, don't sell the house. If she is living in some fantasy world then let her live it but don't help her in anyway. Stop avoiding conflict, if you're not happy about something say it. I mean what's the worst that could happen she leaves, oh yeah she did that already!


You have the right counselor.

Stay with it.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You have the right counselor.
> 
> Stay with it.


I am so frustrated that I accepted all her nonsense on Saturday. I'm so tempted to ring and put things right! I played a victim and I'm not happy with that at all. Problem is if I'm going dark I can't express my frustration to her until she contacts me which could be who knows when.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Set me FREE (Sep 5, 2011)

mab1 said:


> I am so frustrated that I accepted all her nonsense on Saturday. I'm so tempted to ring and put things right! I played a victim and I'm not happy with that at all. Problem is if I'm going dark I can't express my frustration to her until she contacts me which could be who knows when.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need to let that need go...she already knows you are hurting, frustrated and she doesn't care..just doesn't care.

Sometimes things will go unsaid and maybe it's better that way...write it out...and put it away for awhile....go back and read 6 months from now and feel silly about what you wrote. 

It does get better....my stbxh is abusive, continues to be abusive in whatever way he can manage with limited access to me(e-mail...he doesn't even see me when he picks up the kids), has destroyed his business, handed the house over to the mortgage company, refuses to provide any type of support for his kids(even with a court order) and appears to be committing fraud all over the place to try to disguise the abuse(using preexisting injuries for personal injury lawsuits, refusing to file taxes, filing false police reports for marital property that he sold(he promised all the property to me in mediation and he reported it all stolen the following day...hmmmm) ....I should have a lot to say to him...but I don't...I stopped caring...he is a loser POS and not worth the energy....all I can do is find my own footing...try to find a job in this job market after being home with the kids for 10+ years, go back to school(when he isn't mucking up my financial aid), replace the car that he took away from me and destroyed, lose all of the protective layers I put on while married to him, regain my sense of humor, learn to assert my opinion again without fear, make friends, reconnect with family and just sit back and wait for karma to do it's job....the OW is already dealing with an OW of her own and we are still months away from the divorce being final...and everything he does to hurt me...only hurts him(and the OW) in the short term and long term. While he is desperately trying to avoid CS and alimony based on 250k per year...he is losing everything he built up while riding out the divorce on his GF's couch playing xbox.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I am so frustrated that I accepted all her nonsense on Saturday. I'm so tempted to ring and put things right! I played a victim and I'm not happy with that at all. Problem is if I'm going dark I can't express my frustration to her until she contacts me which could be who knows when.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Think of it this way.

You are feeling pressure to reason things out with a person who is completely unreasonable.

Are you hoping to "convince" her of something?

How often has that worked?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Set me FREE said:


> You need to let that need go...she already knows you are hurting, frustrated and she doesn't care..just doesn't care.
> 
> Sometimes things will go unsaid and maybe it's better that way...write it out...and put it away for awhile....go back and read 6 months from now and feel silly about what you wrote.
> 
> It does get better....my stbxh is abusive, continues to be abusive in whatever way he can manage with limited access to me(e-mail...he doesn't even see me when he picks up the kids), has destroyed his business, handed the house over to the mortgage company, refuses to provide any type of support for his kids(even with a court order) and appears to be committing fraud all over the place to try to disguise the abuse(using preexisting injuries for personal injury lawsuits, refusing to file taxes, filing false police reports for marital property that he sold(he promised all the property to me in mediation and he reported it all stolen the following day...hmmmm) ....I should have a lot to say to him...but I don't...I stopped caring...he is a loser POS and not worth the energy....all I can do is find my own footing...try to find a job in this job market after being home with the kids for 10+ years, go back to school(when he isn't mucking up my financial aid), replace the car that he took away from me and destroyed, lose all of the protective layers I put on while married to him, regain my sense of humor, learn to assert my opinion again without fear, make friends, reconnect with family and just sit back and wait for karma to do it's job....the OW is already dealing with an OW of her own and we are still months away from the divorce being final...and everything he does to hurt me...only hurts him(and the OW) in the short term and long term. While he is desperately trying to avoid CS and alimony based on 250k per year...he is losing everything he built up while riding out the divorce on his GF's couch playing xbox.


Oh my, that sounds absolutely awful! Here I am complaining about a few below the belt jibes. My heart goes out to you and I can only imagine the strength of character you must have to cope with all you are. I hope you get everything sorted soon
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Think of it this way.
> 
> You are feeling pressure to reason things out with a person who is completely unreasonable.
> 
> ...


I know you're right but there is still a tiny shred of me desperately clinging onto a scrap of hope that this can be sorted out. A month ago I thought I had a good marriage. Yes there were issues, I have some problems and obviously to me now so does she!
At the moment though the part of me that is still not ready to face this just keeps repeating over and over, 'all you need is to get one of the doors she closed open a ***** and reality will do the rest.'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Grrr, I just was over on the nmmng forums reading about some separations there. I am now so full of righteous anger that I'm thinking of buying a curly afro wig, changing my name to Jules and shouting violent bits from the Bible!
And whilst I'm raging, why the f##k can't people do their jobs properly?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Anger worn off now. Has been replaced by utter confusion. Went to lunch with a friend who is much higher up the food chain in the university system. He confirmed what I thought, that her chances of carrying out her dream were slim to none. Am really struggling this afternoon to not contact her. That small child in me is screaming loudly!

I also have arranged a legal consult for next friday. WTF IS HAPPENING TO MY LIFE!!!!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I know you're right but there is still a tiny shred of me desperately clinging onto a scrap of hope that this can be sorted out. A month ago I thought I had a good marriage. Yes there were issues, I have some problems and obviously to me now so does she!
> At the moment though the part of me that is still not ready to face this just keeps repeating over and over, 'all you need is to get one of the doors she closed open a ***** and reality will do the rest.'
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again... when has your "reality" matched hers?

Why would you expect it to this time?


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Sounds like she felt that the problems you guys had were bigger than you thought they were. I'm guessing she kept a lot of things to herself and you did, too. I hope you have a good therapist to help you through this; if not, get one. Write letters to her, if you want, but let her know that she doesn't have to reply if she doesn't want to do so. These kinds of weird problems don't ever resolve themselves without work, because there's a communication rift at the heart of it, but both people have to be willing to try to make an effort. You can let her know how you feel and that you're sorry for having isolated her and for having an angry outburst that got the police involved. Give her time to figure out what she wants while you figure out what you want. Undoing codependency isn't easy and I think you've got a lot to sort through, so get a good therapist if you don't have one.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

mab1 said:


> I was often extremely cold with her as if trying to always be in control. I would often refuse to go out with her to meet friends and family for no reason. I certainly didn't congratulate her enough when she achieved great things eg she finished a 10km run and I didn't even bother going to see her at the end - She told me that was fine but that's not the point I should have been there.
> Things like that....


This might have made her feel deeply manipulated by you, especially if she if she feels her attachments deeply. Sounds like she often discards friends and life often, but keeps you and her family as constants. For a person who is this attached to you, this is a deeply painful thing. Sounds like she felt unsupported by you. Add to this the way you responded to her and threw stuff out and the fact that she feels isolated from her friends and family and I can bet you that whatever this codependency was for you was very painful for her. Maybe she loves you but feels broken down by your dynamic.

I don't think you're a Mr Nice Guy pushover. I think you need to explore the relationship objectively and consider her complaints. It wouldn't be too much to ask her to elaborate why she left you and whether she thinks things can be repaired. I think that you're not seeing the situation from her perspective. That's to be expected because you weren't aware the problems were so big, but....it sounds like you didn't even realize how controlling and stifling to her spirit your actions were (definitely like you were not intending it that way; I bet she has some emotional issues). It sounds like you guys were not meeting each others needs and just didn't know it.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

moxy said:


> This might have made her feel deeply manipulated by you, especially if she if she feels her attachments deeply. Sounds like she often discards friends and life often, but keeps you and her family as constants. For a person who is this attached to you, this is a deeply painful thing. Sounds like she felt unsupported by you. Add to this the way you responded to her and threw stuff out and the fact that she feels isolated from her friends and family and I can bet you that whatever this codependency was for you was very painful for her. Maybe she loves you but feels broken down by your dynamic.
> 
> I don't think you're a Mr Nice Guy pushover. I think you need to explore the relationship objectively and consider her complaints. It wouldn't be too much to ask her to elaborate why she left you and whether she thinks things can be repaired. I think that you're not seeing the situation from her perspective. That's to be expected because you weren't aware the problems were so big, but....it sounds like you didn't even realize how controlling and stifling to her spirit your actions were (definitely like you were not intending it that way; I bet she has some emotional issues). It sounds like you guys were not meeting each others needs and just didn't know it.


I think she basically spent our 2 Weeks apart blame shifting everything on me and worrying about how she'll feel in 20 years time if things don't change. Now she has vented, I'm hoping we can talk a bit but am not pushing at all. I have realised that the stuff about not missing me was a front but she is trying to convince herself its true. I did try something different last night and rather than hiding and licking my wounds from the kicking she gave me on Saturday I left her the password to our online cable account on her answerphone so she can download stuff at work. The place she is in had no TV or internet so boredom must be kicking in (which will be my fault). She rang within minutes but I didn't see the call as i had left my phone upstairs. By the time I saw it I knew she'd be in bed so didn't call back. Was this a good thing to do? I dont know. Was it a covert contract thing on my behalf? No. Could it be a positive result to a 180 action? Maybe. Did I feel better for it? Yes. Now, all I'm focusing on is trying to be that better man I said I would be by performing actions and not just desperate sounding words. I expect nothing back and think the call back was more than likely to tell me not to call or to say thanks but to bring up bills and house selling too. Not sure I'm keen on either of those so may stay low for a bit longer. How long should I give it do you think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Bit of journaling here. Am having a bad day today. A friend of mine at work who is Syrian was telling us at lunch about someone he knows who has been tortured by the regime there, atrocities he has witnessed, use of kids as human shields. Obviously, I was horrified by it all but you know what, and this scares me senseless, almost 50% of the time I was thinking about how I can stay in contact with my wife. I know that Syria is a long way away and I don't know these people but still! I can't focus on work at all, I just keep trawling forums here and at divorcebusting. I'm trying to GAL. I'm in better shape physically then I have been for 10 years due to all the time in the gym. I've spent a small fortune on clothes. Women are noticing me on the street, not that I actually want to talk to any of them. I've got two councillors, an MC (who is ICing) and an IC. I'm learning to sail next week. I'm planning to go to a music festival. And yet all I'm worrying about is how to stay in touch. The house is our only point of contact and that is going to become a bone of contention soon. We don't overlap socially because I was always keen for her to have her own friends and I felt comfortable when she was out with them. We don't overlap workwise because we have different workplaces and specialties. I don't know where she lives. I am really having some serious detachment issues...


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Went to see my IC today. Sounds like I have some serious issues which have added to the relationship break down. Being Mr Nice Guy not being the least of them. If this is so, how do I know whether this marriage is actually worth fighting for? I know I don't want to divorce but why am I clinging onto a reality that doesn't exist any more?
Is this where I want to get to? Do you have to totally give up/let go before things can progress? Or do you have to keep a tiny bit of hope alive whilst almost completely letting go? 

The IC has made me have to take begin taking stock of everything I believe in and now I've realised that I can now see that she is going through the same process. The difference being that her taking stock involved (I think)having a MLC and detaching from me in order to pursue a fantasy world and mine involves trying to grow as a person with or without her in my life. How is it possible to keep it all together when both people are so in flux?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Welcome to the world of Synthetic 

At times I'm a bit more clearheaded thanks to being absolutely convinced that I gave it all I had and she actually acknowledged that she "chickened out" of our marriage. To me that was the most honest thing she has ever said.



> Is this where I want to get to? Do you have to totally give up/let go before things can progress? Or do you have to keep a tiny bit of hope alive whilst almost completely letting go?


You still have the controlling codependent nice-guy in you. You still haven't realized that you don't have a choice when it comes to her feelings. You have no control over what she wants to do. Giving up is not a decision you make alone. She already made that decision for your marriage. You can't stay married to yourself. She left. You have nothing to give-up on. 

About hope: I hope my wife comes to her senses and regrets her decision to destroy our marriage. I hope she comes to me asking for forgiveness. I hope to hear her tell me I'm the love of her life.

You know what else I hope for? To win the lottery.

I have realized that I have as much control over my chances of winning the lottery as getting my wife to do those things. The lottery maybe a more hopeful cause than the other.

I still do not want to believe my wife will actually go through with the divorce, but all her actions and words are in tune with a person who is fully detached and wants a divorce. Yet my inner-child refuses to believe that she will actually go through with it. My inner-child has been wrong many times.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Went to see my IC today. Sounds like I have some serious issues which have added to the relationship break down. If this is so, how do I know whether this marriage is actually worth fighting for?


Start thinking about your serious issues. What are they? Where do they come from? Do they represent your fears or beliefs you've internalized about yourself? Is this the way you want to feel about yourself? Is this the way you want to be? Make a plan to deal with issues. 

For example, if one of your issues is "no one will ever love me" (a common one), explore why it is that you feel that way and where the idea came from and whether or not you truly accept it; considering that you see it as an issue, it seems that you don't want that to be a belief you hold, so think about how you will overcome it. What would make you feel loved? What is your love language? What kinds of things to you expect in a partner? How much do you need to feel loved in order to be happy? Is your happiness or sense of identity contingent on this? How can you extricate yourself from this fear? Did your wife actually do things that made you feel loved? What did she do that made you feel unloved? (Make a list, like pro/con about her loving/unloving actions). Were you expecting your wife to fulfill some void inside you and make you happy? Are you relying on her for your happiness? Is that fair? Or, were you holding on to her because she is what you have in your life? Are you clinging to the hopes and dreams you both once shared? How does it compare to the reality you once shared in the first 9 years of your relationship? To the most recent one year? The hard part is thinking about it objectively. Write the answers down and come back to them later and think about them. 

There's a good questionnaire about emotional needs on the marriage builders website; try taking it and then evaluating how well your wife has actually met those needs for you. Then consider the fact that she has left. Did she leave because you were not meeting her needs? Is it possible that you simply cannot meet her needs, either because you're wired differently or because she doesn't want to let you? Is she just choosing to get her needs met without you? Is that something you can control? (Probably not, I'd say). If she were to tell you "I know all the things you're feeling right now, but I need to figure myself out and I can't do that while I'm attached to this wife role that's stifling me because of my own ideas of wifely-ness, so I need to let you go, will you let me go figure out what I need to do and just leave me be until I know what that is?", how would you respond? Do you have enough of a life, self, or identity without her to sustain your own happiness? If not, re-build yourself without her and then maybe when the two of you have put yourselves back together, you can see whether or not you still fit together.



mab1 said:


> The IC has made me have to take begin taking stock of everything I believe in and now I've realised that I can now see that she is going through the same process.


Good. You both are at a point where things aren't working. You need to step back and re-evaluate. Take stock of yourself and stop worrying about what she is doing!



mab1 said:


> The difference being that her taking stock involved (I think)having a MLC and detaching from me in order to pursue a fantasy world and mine involves trying to grow as a person with or without her in my life.


There is no way you can actually know that. You're both "taking stock" in different ways. Neither way is "better" than another. You are choosing to see her rebuilding of self as frivolous and seeing your own as noble. Her self is as important to her as your self is to you. She may be re-evaluating whether or not she has it in her to be a wife. You might want to evaluate why it is you think that if she isn't taking stock in a way that includes you, it's just wrong. You should focus on taking stock of yourself only. Maybe you will find that you both weren't a good fit. Who cares what direction she is taking on the path? Right now, you're taking different paths. Maybe you will meet again down the road and maybe you won't, but you can't convince her to take the same path as you and you can't just be a tag-along when she has told you she doesn't want you to join her on her path, so walk on your path and figure out YOU without worrying whether her path is stupid or frivolous, whether she is on the low road while you're on the high road, or not. (Go listen to that song, it might speak to you, minus the nationalism; it spoke to me).



mab1 said:


> How is it possible to keep it all together when both people are so in flux?


You cut the other person off and figure yourself out! You decide that maybe you'll meet again and maybe you won't and you just walk on your road. Some days you'll miss her. Some days you'll want desperately to go into the past. Unfortunately, you can't make her try. You can let her know how you feel and you can let go and see if she comes to you or not. And you can figure out your life and find joy with or without her. Let Her Go. Even if you don't want to. Your identity does not depend on her or even on your role as a husband. Take this time to go find yourself, too. It's hard, but you'll get there.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

What a fantastic post! Thanks moxy. Plenty to think about there. I'm not so worried about not being loved. I've been fortunate enough to have been in a loving relationship twice. My major concerns are that will there be a third and how do I find it (and I'm not ruling out a new one with my wife here)? Will I be able to find someone who is going to be able to commit to a relationship as completely as I do? Will I be able to trust anyone fully again?

I went and did the questionnaire and think she was filling most of my emotional needs, but then I didn't want to leave the marriage! Can I fulfil her needs? I guess that is what she doesn't know right now and why I am now here writing this. It is very difficult to cope with though because I don't feel I am being given a fair chance to adapt to her newly configured wants and am being judged based on how I fit her old criteria which she spent years training me to fit! Seeing as she is seemingly dissatisfied with the old criteria she is probably thinking that there is someone/something else out there which fits better. Basically, everyone else gets a chance BUT me based on out of date evidence! 

We definitely needed more communication and I needed a kick up the ass to get my own needs taken care of. I just wish it didn't have to be seemingly final solution. There is so much petty stuff that was overblown from both me and her which we could have addressed so much better. But hey, if she can change then why can't I?

Can I take care of my own happiness? To be honest right now, no. I hate not having someone to confide in, to vent to. Even if they aren't actually here with me. I hate looking at things to do and not being able to invite my wife to come. I was looking at a music festival later in the summer and broke down in tears because I know I can't ask her to come too. Is it just her or a partner I want? At the moment it is her. Who knows how it will turn out in the coming months. It's something I hope to work on with the IC.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Welcome to the world of Synthetic
> 
> At times I'm a bit more clearheaded thanks to being absolutely convinced that I gave it all I had and she actually acknowledged that she "chickened out" of our marriage. To me that was the most honest thing she has ever said.
> 
> ...


I'm definitely starting to come to grips with the lack of control part of the equation. What I can't get a grip on is how she is using me as a guiding example of what she doesn't want when only a month or two ago she was really happy in our relationship...
I guess that's one of the reasons she hasn't talked about divorce yet because she can't cope with the speed of these changes either.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

OK, interesting update. I rang to tell her that she had a parcel and an official looking letter had arrived. I then asked whether she was ok. At that point she started crying and said she'd had a terrible week. She was saying that she couldn't cope with work any more, that she knew she was acting weird (I resisted the urge to say 'huh, you noticed too eh?' at this point) and she missed talking to me. Her friends and family were all supportive but they weren't helping her. Basically, it all sounded a bit like she was starting to realise this wasn't some teenage boyfriend/girlfriend thing but was real. She admitted the child commitment issue had freaked her out. I did point out that being married was a commitment as well which she took well. 
I told her that I wouldn't resume a relationship without major counselling and that she wasn't moving back in any time soon. She agreed, said she has booked appointments to see flats for the weekend but that she now doesn't want to sell the house. She is going to see her own IC but said the MC was too soon. 
Basically, she wants to be married, but be independant and will only reconnect when she is happy with herself. Talk about cake and eating it! She was at particular pains to point out how there was definitely no one else, that I'd misunderstood about the removal of boundaries in the marriage (I'm sure she's gaslighting there). She said she could see us starting again through dating.
So maybe the fog is starting to clear? However, I'm not sure she's got any clue as to my feelings in all this. I'm determined not to be a caretaker anymore. I also have to really think whether I can cope with this sort of breakdown on a regular basis. It sounds like she needs a lot of help but at least she is starting to realise it.

I think I may well keep GALing and keeping up a 180 for now as this will be going on for a while I think. Tomorrow night is a New Orleans blues band, I've got sailing next week and then some japanese taiko drumming on Wednesday for good measure!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

It's all about her isn't it? You don't matter much. You never did.

My wife is doing exactly the same thing. She's thinks I'm an idiot (or thought!). I can now clearly see through her selfishness. 

If she wants to be married, yet separated and independent, she's basically gambling with your heart. I totally understand you still want to reconcile with her, but try to extend your horizon by imagining the days that follow a possible reconciliation.

Will you be able to love and trust her? I'm asking myself this question all the time. It's not like I don't love and trust her. It's that logic tells me I shouldn't. Rarely anyone can fight against logic for long. At the end of the day logic always beats all feelings no matter how strong they are.

Our wives are not wives. They're selfish individuals who are only married on paper, not in their heart.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> It's all about her isn't it? You don't matter much. You never did.
> 
> My wife is doing exactly the same thing. She's thinks I'm an idiot (or thought!). I can now clearly see through her selfishness.
> 
> ...


Pretty much spot on synth. She was spouting all sorts of bs about needing to know what it was like to be on her own and having anyone else around (me or otherwise) would make life much harder. Its almost like she's scared to open up because she realises that she is not acting normally. Not that she has any clue what normal is at the moment! I'm convinced there is a hormone imbalance going on but again not in my control. The most irritating thing she was complaining about being in limbo! Her in limbo? WTF! Its like she's having a nervous breakdown our something. It does seem to mark a turning point though as she has now realised that it isn't all my fault. In fact, she has gone the other way and is blaming it all on herself. So in three weeks, she has gonefrom next Nobel prize winner in 3 years to wanting to live in a cottage on her own with cats. Wow, this is tiring!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Oh she will settle for much less than she had with you and still call it "better" because her pride has her trapped.

2-3 years down the road though...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic said:


> It's all about her isn't it? You don't matter much. You never did.
> 
> My wife is doing exactly the same thing. She's thinks I'm an idiot (or thought!). I can now clearly see through her selfishness.
> 
> ...


It's called a marriage of convenience.

Once it's no longer convenient, they are out.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I think I may have just forced things to a head!

She came round to pick up her mail and we were chatting about the garden, friends, how she enjoyed teaching and all the regrets she had about school and uni. It was all quite pleasant for about half an hour. Then she started talking about the house and how we probably shouldn't sell it, how she'd found a flat etc etc. I pointed out we may have to change some insurance stuff if she was living elsewhere and things went very quickly downhill from there. 

All the 180 stuff out of the window, we were talking about us! It did not go well. I still can't change, she is too far gone, she doesn't think she loves me anymore (but still isn't 100%, she may have made a mistake). By walking out she showed she had made her decision. She's lonely, on the edge of a nervous breakdown but still thinks it's the right thing to do. She doesn't miss me, I have undermined her, kept her from her friends, I did loads wrong during the marriage (some of which were true and I massively regret them. Things like not congratulating her properly when she got her grant). I was always unhappy because of work and she was a go getter and she didn't think I could cope with that. She wants to be alone because she is always pleasing others and thinks it isn't healthy.
She did slip at one point and said that my behaviour had forced her to someone, I mean something else (EA confirmation? Possibly). 

She then went back to the night she said we should separate and found more things I said which I shouldn't have (eg belittled her current job), but I've already apologised numerous time for that evening so this time I stood up for myself a bit more. I pointed out that if she could change why can't I? That I regretted loads but that I wanted to move forward and prove myself in future. And then I said that the problem was that I didn't know how to show her. I said I didn't feel I could keep going the way were were for long, that I didn't want to stay here but if there was a even a 1% chance of saving our marriage I would do it. That I didn't want to convince her with words but show her with actions but couldn't see a way to do it, but I was desperately trying to save our marriage. Basically, I took the 180 rules and ignored most of them!

So when she asked me what I wanted to do I asked her to come to councilling for a few sessions. By this point she was really angry (presumably because I had shown some backbone) but agreed to come. Now I'm assuming if she does come it will only be to convince herself that she is right. Her parting words were along the line of by asking her to agree to councilling I was enforcing my will over hers and thereby proving I didn't respect her opinions and that I was forcing her into her pleasing everyone behaviours again. 

The worst thing was she was just looking at me like she hated me! She grabbed her mail, got straight in her car and just said email me the time to meet. At this point I did cave a bit and said if she was so convinced then she didn't need to go but she just repeated email me and then sped off without a second look. 

Help!?!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

You did what I have done hundreds of times. You indeed lowered your boundaries again and lost a tad more respect for yourself. You're definitely angry with yourself inside. Not because she wants to end the marriage, but because you're subconsciously angry with the unfairness of the situation and how horrible she's treating your genuine feelings. In fact, sometimes you get vengeful and want to soften her up only to tell her to f*** off so you can feel better. It's normal and is a sign of resentments building up.

I know how it feels. 

Your wife doesn't hate you. But she definitely doesn't love you enough either. That's all that should matter to you at this point. 

That's how I define my own situation: My wife doesn't love me enough, so she's not meeting my personal standards, and therefore must change before I can give her the gift of love and forgiveness.

And yes, you have every right to be angry. She left the marriage. She betrayed your marital vows. She belittled you. She abandoned you. She has perhaps opened her heart to other men and is feeling absolutely nothing about doing all this to you.

Keep imagining what you would feel if she came back tonight and said she wants to stay married. I know you'd let her in, but how would you really feel? Wouldn't you feel like a fool? Used and abused? Played with? Pissed off?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Am just feeling crap now. She was bloody right again. By forcing councelling on her when she's not ready I've just gone and done exactly what she is complaining about. Yes, I'm desperate to save my marriage but if she really is on the edge of a breakdown how does my adding to the stress help?

I rang and left a message telling her to forget counselling and just concentrate on getting better. That will probably go down badly but I know it's the right thing to do. 

I think I just put the final nail into the coffin for my marriage. Gutted....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Have you gentlemen ever read about the drama triangle?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

drama triangle?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

ah, just read about it. I will be trying to get into the centre of the triangle asap


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Am now in two minds with respect to MC. One, she said she'd go and it might be worth a shot, let her know the time and see if she comes or two, go dark, if she asks tell her, if not well she's the one who broke her word not me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> ah, just read about it. I will be trying to get into the centre of the triangle asap


Good man.

You saw yourself.

You are not alone.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Am now in two minds with respect to MC. One, she said she'd go and it might be worth a shot, let her know the time and see if she comes or two, go dark, if she asks tell her, if not well she's the one who broke her word not me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ask if she has a problem with the time.

If the appointment is set, tell her when it is and that you won't be asking again.

Then go dark.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

definitely option 2.

Dark is all you got at this point. Let me put it this way (and I know it will sound pretty negative):

You have NOTHING to battle this pain at this moment. All the weapons and ammo are at your wife's disposal while she has her finger on the trigger and pointing all of them guns at you. What is the most logical thing you can do to avoid the bullets?

1. Beg her not to shoot
2. Try to reason with her why shooting is not a good idea
3. Take cover and reassess the situation

I'm sure you know the logical option is #3

Going dark is taking cover. Go dark. You *need to* be less attached to her. She *needs you to* be less attached to her to understand that her actions have consequences.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic,

Did you read about the drama triangle?

Tell me you did.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

I have sir. It was one of the first wake up calls you gave me here.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Just got back from day 1 of learning to sail. Really enjoyed it. Was really starting to stress when it came to the capsizing drill. I could literally feel the anxiety starting to rise in me. My wife had always been really anxious about things like that and it had rubbed off on me. Then I remembered NMMNG - if it scares you, do it. So I followed that piece of advice and you know what? I did it. What's more I wanted to keep doing it because I had overcome my fear! It felt great!

Now if only there was someway to overcome the slimeball-filtered lenses which my wife views me through! It is quite upsetting to get every stupid thing (and believe me out of context I have said and done some very stupid things) you've done for ten years thrown in your face over and over. I just need to remember the triangle and stay in the centre, stop apologising and start problem solving.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Damn, I'm going in circles again! I blame true blood which we always watched together! She has 95% convinced herself (and continues to convince herself) she is out of this marriage for whatever reason. Be it my problems, her problems whatever. She said that she is still not sure it is a mistake though and so there is still a chance. Every time I try to do something to increase that chance she gets angry because I'm not respecting her desires to be a career driven cat lady who blames me for ruining her life. If I push the MC, I'm in the wrong. If I don't push MC I'm in limbo till I finally get ground to a pulp. Neither one is massively appealing. Is MC actually going to be any use anyway when she is wearing her marriage destruction as a badge of honour?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

I'm going to vote no. I'm sorry.  I hope you will choose to end the limbo for yourself...it isn't easy, I had to make that decision myself not long ago, but I know that in five years I will thank myself for being strong now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Damn, I'm going in circles again! I blame true blood which we always watched together! She has 95% convinced herself (and continues to convince herself) she is out of this marriage for whatever reason. Be it my problems, her problems whatever. She said that she is still not sure it is a mistake though and so there is still a chance. Every time I try to do something to increase that chance she gets angry because I'm not respecting her desires to be a career driven cat lady who blames me for ruining her life. If I push the MC, I'm in the wrong. If I don't push MC I'm in limbo till I finally get ground to a pulp. Neither one is massively appealing. Is MC actually going to be any use anyway when she is wearing her marriage destruction as a badge of honour?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How about just observing and let her lead?

Listen to me closely. Staying in the center of the triangle - sometimes - means just holding still.

STOP trying to fix this.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> How about just observing and let her lead?
> 
> Listen to me closely. Staying in the center of the triangle - sometimes - means just holding still.
> 
> STOP trying to fix this.


It's hard Conrad. I know what you mean and am exactly doing what you're suggesting, but day by day I feel like I'm losing my ability to make decisions.

The biggest problem is the whole concept of 'marriage' being too sacred in my mind. And of course you already know she doesn't hold the same view. No one in her family does. They go through husbands and wives like mobile phones.

If I looked at divorce the way she does, I would have divorced her long before all this happened. How do I convince myself that divorce is not such a bad thing? Or am I right that divorce is indeed a very crappy thing that should be avoided if possible?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic said:


> It's hard Conrad. I know what you mean and am exactly doing what you're suggesting, but day by day I feel like I'm losing my ability to make decisions.
> 
> The biggest problem is the whole concept of 'marriage' being too sacred in my mind. And of course you already know she doesn't hold the same view. No one in her family does. They go through husbands and wives like mobile phones.
> 
> If I looked at divorce the way she does, I would have divorced her long before all this happened. How do I convince myself that divorce is not such a bad thing? Or am I right that divorce is indeed a very crappy thing that should be avoided if possible?


Synthetic,

You shouldn't "avoid" something that's the right thing to do. It's how you got here, by avoiding conflict at all costs.

We're working with and on you to recognize that conflict is a tool for construction.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm not so worried about conflict more about the way we dealt with it. We had gotten into a tail spin and something drastic need doing and to her credit she did it when I couldn't. Now she has, surely this is a great opportunity to address our issues and restart the journey again in a smoother and safer way? I am not ready to bail out yet. All my friends, family, this board say I should but I don't work like that. Just over a month ago I had one if the greatest nights of my life with her. I wanted her to be the mother of my children. Now, I'm supposed to bail out and let the wind dictate what happens? Sometimes I can convince myself that I don't miss her but it lasts about 5 minutes. Am I scared that by reconciling I've opened myself to a life of misery? Yes, but I could also be giving myself the chance to have a great life having paired away all the years of neglect and problems. The MC isn't about trying to fix things. I want to do it so that we can find new ways of working together so that the great future I want for us has a chance of happening. By not doing anything I'm just leaving it to chance and I just don't know whether that's something I can do whilst not losing the plot completely
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

The other thing is that I've only been sharing my obviously biased side of the story. Maybe an objective third person who hears both sides may be what we need? Right now I'm not rational and neither is she. I'm still reeling from hammer blows and she is cherry picking pieces to produce a jigsaw of the must horrible picture of me she can find.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I'm not so worried about conflict more about the way we dealt with it. We had gotten into a tail spin and something drastic need doing and to her credit she did it when I couldn't. Now she has, surely this is a great opportunity to address our issues and restart the journey again in a smoother and safer way? I am not ready to bail out yet. All my friends, family, this board say I should but I don't work like that. Just over a month ago I had one if the greatest nights of my life with her. I wanted her to be the mother of my children. Now, I'm supposed to bail out and let the wind dictate what happens? Sometimes I can convince myself that I don't miss her but it lasts about 5 minutes. Am I scared that by reconciling I've opened myself to a life of misery? Yes, but I could also be giving myself the chance to have a great life having paired away all the years of neglect and problems. The MC isn't about trying to fix things. I want to do it so that we can find new ways of working together so that the great future I want for us has a chance of happening. By not doing anything I'm just leaving it to chance and I just don't know whether that's something I can do whilst not losing the plot completely
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Show me one post where I said you should bail.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Mab, going dark isn't bailing, it's taking it slow with shields in place. It's good that you're ready to dive in to fix the problems, but she is still wavering. Once you are both going in the same direction and at roughly the same speed, then you can move more swiftly, but you've gotta let her catch up to you without pulling her along or she will feel pressured, you will feel insecure, and nothing gets better.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Show me one post where I said you should bail.


I know, I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted but it's what it feels like I'm being forced to do by the situation
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> The other thing is that I've only been sharing my obviously biased side of the story. Maybe an objective third person who hears both sides may be what we need? Right now I'm not rational and neither is she. I'm still reeling from hammer blows and she is cherry picking pieces to produce a jigsaw of the must horrible picture of me she can find.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Once you go dark and start realizing your own self-worth, you'll wonder why you ever cared about what people may think. You won't love your wife any less. You'll just love yourself more.

It doesn't happen by faking strength to yourself. The reason you go dark is so you can feel all you need to feel and cry your eyes out for days (possibly weeks) without exposing your weakness to her. You need to shed those tears before your brain's defense mechanism starts to take over. Once the ball starts rolling, your wife will no longer be able to call all the shots (including the decision to divorce at her convenience).

Read my latest conversation with my wife after 1 month of almost no contact.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

moxy said:


> Mab, going dark isn't bailing, it's taking it slow with shields in place. It's good that you're ready to dive in to fix the problems, but she is still wavering. Once tippy are both going in the same direction and at roughly the same speed, then you can move more swiftly, but you've gotta let her catch up to you without pulling her along or she will feel pressured, you will feel insecure, and nothing gets better.


I just feel like if I go dark and work on myself only she will spend her time focussing on everything that went wrong with us. There was stuff wrong, plenty on my behalf and hers. In the last few weeks she's done a great job of demonising me to herself and friends. I just can't stop myself from wanting to work on our relationship especially when I'm just plain embarrassed by some of the things she has brought out to focus on. I want to show her I'm better than that but don't know how to before it's really too far gone. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> I just feel like if I go dark and work on myself only she will spend her time focussing on everything that went wrong with us. There was stuff wrong, plenty on my behalf and hers. In the last few weeks she's done a great job of demonising me to herself and friends. I just can't stop myself from wanting to work on our relationship especially when I'm just plain embarrassed by some of the things she has brought out to focus on. I want to show her I'm better than that but don't know how to before it's really too far gone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fair enough. Been there, I get it.

Here's what you do:

1. Write down a list of the things you regret doing to your wife
2. Write a heartfelt apology letter (but don't send it yet)

3. Do not initiate contact for 2 weeks since your last face-to-face conversation. Let the cloud of anger clear.

4. Send the letter.

5. Go completely dark.


I got my wife back with that approach within 3 weeks. You know what happened after.

Now I have no reason to think I should apologize for anything. I already did and made the changes that convinced her to come back. In time you'll realize "it's never enough".

It always ends up meaning one thing and one thing only:

*SHE DOESN'T LOVE YOU ENOUGH*


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I've done the apologising, she knows I regret things but right now she's being stubborn (which she's pretty good at) and convincing herself she's right and that I'll keep doing all the same things over and over. So yes, right now she doesn't love me enough (or at all, or she doesn't think she does or whatever she's thinking today). Every time I try and take the chance she's offered it's ended up badly. I'm an imperfect guy who has made mistakes who is trying to atone for them but who has also been hurt really badly. Isn't MC the place to address all this? Trying to overcome this by ourselves has only made things worse between us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I'm an imperfect guy who has made mistakes who is trying to atone for them but who has also been hurt really badly


Does your wife give a crap that you've been hurt? Let her actions speak for her. Give her some time and observe whether she even cares about your hurt.

She *IS* your wife isn't she? If your wife can't bring herself to caring about your feelings, then what is it that you're pursuing here? Her physical presence? You can hire an escort for that (she'll be hotter and less nagging)

Get my point? Your wife is obligated to be a wife, not just a physical body who reminds you what a crappy person you are to the point of destroying your self-confidence. That's what your wife is doing to you (perhaps not with an ill-will and not fully consciously) *because you're allowing it*.

Listen man, I know the advice here is completely against your immediate feelings. I know on DivorceBusting forum people are more into making all sorts of compromises in the name of 'atonement', and I give you every right to second-guess your assertiveness when you're dealing with all this nasty guilt about what your wife is accusing you of.

I think you have not reached the point where you can say "I showed her all the love and care I could but she didn't want it". Do whatever you have to do to convince yourself of that. It might even get you your wife back for a while. Who doesn't love getting showered by affection and apologies? 

You'll slowly realize that your own feelings and desires have been completely ignored. At some point your heart will simply refuse to give anymore love without being loved back. It's on your way, you just need to arrive at it before you can digest the advice here. It's a road that some of us have to travel to the painful end.

MC cannot make your wife realize how important or insignificant you are to her. For your situation, MC is actually detrimental to your wife's realization of your worth. She will look at is as another wifey 'chore' that she has to do before she can bail on you guilt-free. 

Want to know if your wife loves you enough to want you in her life? Take the luxury of having 'you' away from her. You are who you are. That will never change. She already knows that. Let's see how much you matter to her.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

" You'll slowly realize that your own feelings and desires have been completely ignored. At some point your heart will simply refuse to give anymore love without being loved back."

This is a major point. This is exactly why my stbxh left...after almost three months of no contact, I can see exactly how much he loves me -- not at all. I love him, but I deserve better. So do you. No contact is difficult in the beginning, but it has also reenergized my life...having to get out there and do things on my own has made me realize how much I want to be with a man who truly appreciates me. I'd bet that time away from your wife will make you realize that she is not, in fact, the same person you have on a pedestal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

moxy said:


> Mab, going dark isn't bailing, it's taking it slow with shields in place. It's good that you're ready to dive in to fix the problems, but she is still wavering. Once you are both going in the same direction and at roughly the same speed, then you can move more swiftly, but you've gotta let her catch up to you without pulling her along or she will feel pressured, you will feel insecure, and nothing gets better.


Unfortunately, I think she so mentally tired with dealing with it that she isn't even heading the same direction as me but is withdrawing into herself. I think she is really struggling with guilt issues. Probably nothing to do with my feelings but more of her own about throwing everything away in such a short space of time and what sort of person that makes her. Hence, why she is painting me as always being a horrible monster (not true all the time ;-) ), so she can use that to justify what she's done. She still hasn't been able to convince herself properly though otherwise we'd be divorcing, which she hasn't mentioned yet. The comment made about MC being another chore may be spot on but if I give into her on this I'll always wonder what if? Mind you if I force it and it fails I'll probably think the same too! It's all happened so quickly I'm so confused at the moment. I had a moment after todays sailing where I just thought "you know what I'm really fed up of this. It is not all my fault. I didn't go psycho over 1\2 a
tablespoon too much of olive oil in a meal she made me. I did listen to all her ranting about work, and life in general. I came up with all the holiday ideas and so on. I deserve a break.". The annoying thing is I don't think I'll get one and then that's starts off the abandonment issues again and away goes my weary mind again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mab,

I'll keep this short.

You've read my story. My wife has admitted she viewed me as her ADVERSARY.

Any idea I had. Any suggestion. Any solution. Any revelation. Any overture. Any request. Any word that came out of my mouth - no matter how tender, sweet, sarcastic or otherwise was TAINTED by that perception.

She isn't going to go along with ANYTHING you propose, as long as she sees you as her adversary. Only by experiencing life without you in it lies the FACT that she will likely miss what you brought to hers.

Can you not see this?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Mab,
> 
> I'll keep this short.
> 
> ...


Thanks Conrad, where can I find your story? It would be great to read it. 
So, if both of us going to MC is a waste of time at the moment (which I sort of think it will be) and I'm not ready to walk away yet because I take my marriage vows seriously and do appreciate everything she did for our marriage (even if she has convinced herself I was completely ungrateful) what do I do? I did do things wrong in our marriage and would like the chance to put them right. I'm lonely, I don't enjoy my job, I miss talking to my wife and whilst sailing is fun it's only going to last 2 more days. I've been going to gigs which just end up reminding me that my wife isn't there. I'm even finding the gym hard at the moment because my left hand doesn't feel right on the weights without my ring on! I'm really struggling here. Trying to do the exercises in NMMNG helps a bit but I just feel like I'm in a repeating loop.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Schedule a counseling session.

Let her know when it is.

You attend no matter what.

She can come if she wishes.

No encouragement. No nothing.

Just leadership.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...ation/48851-green-shoots-amidst-wreckage.html


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Schedule a counseling session.
> 
> Let her know when it is.
> 
> ...


Thanks again Conrad. Don't worry I'm going with or without her. I actually quite enjoy them because as I said previously my councillor talks a lot of sense and whilst it may be hard facing up to some stuff at least I feel like I'm doing something positive. It's the other 167 hours of the week I need to work on now


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1,

All the feelings you're having are completely normal and will fluctuate in severeness for the next few weeks. Don't fight them. Invite them, feel them and let your logical part of the brain do the work. 

Here's what's going to happen on your end:

In the next few days or weeks, there will be a moment (while you're feeling very low and possibly crying) when you realize all this weakness you're feeling has absolutely nothing to do with her. You will most likely look at your miserable face in the mirror and suddenly realize the unhealthy level of neediness you have developed over the years and the negative behaviors that result from neediness such as being abusive, controlling and possibly unfaithful.

Look at the title of your thread. Have you realized what caused you to type that title yet? I don't think you have.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

journaling -
Damn, I just broke down again! Was looking for a phone number for one my groomsmen and went looking through my gmail for it. I just found loads of mails regarding our wedding and I lost it. It feels like it was yesterday and its all but gone now...


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> mab1,
> 
> All the feelings you're having are completely normal and will fluctuate in severeness for the next few weeks. Don't fight them. Invite them, feel them and let your logical part of the brain do the work.
> 
> ...


Thanks synth, I know you are trying to get me to see through the fog but I'm still well in there at the moment. I still feel the same now as when she left. Yes, it was a codependent and probably at times a dysfunctional relationship but I should have done more to fix it earlier. I don't want to blameshift it all on her, I played a significant role in this too and unfortunately that's the only bit that I can have any affect on at the moment.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

MC is scheduled for Monday which may be too soon. She'll still be angry. Its really scary but I think I have to face the fear and leave it a bit longer. I did actually tell her when it was on Sunday anyway, the email demand was more to do with her diary obsession anyway. On a side note her name disappeared from the instant messenger list on Facebook last night. I nearly had a panic attack because I thought she had done it. Then I found out that it is automatically generated and calmed down. It's strange how that single thing scared me so much more than going to get legal advice, her moving out, the I don't love you conversations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

FFS I did it again didn't I? I'm basing my decisions on her predicted response. It only took an hour it so to spot it this time!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So I'm beginning to think the whole MC idea will just make things worse and is best avoided. One of the main reasons i suggested it is as a safe place to talk. Almost every time we've spoken since she left it starts well and then rapidly goes downhill whilst she tells me how much better life is without me. Problem is the going dark alternative seems a bit too one sided. She gets all the freedom she wanted and I worry about rebuilding my life. How can I keep communication lines open without seeming to be pursuing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> So I'm beginning to think the whole MC idea will just make things worse and is best avoided. One of the main reasons i suggested it is as a safe place to talk. Almost every time we've spoken since she left it starts well and then rapidly goes downhill whilst she tells me how much better life is without me. Problem is the going dark alternative seems a bit too one sided. She gets all the freedom she wanted and I worry about rebuilding my life. How can I keep communication lines open without seeming to be pursuing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


QUIT FOCUSING ON HER

This is about you now.

Does she know your phone number?

If she does, "communication lines" are already open.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

What a morning!
Went to get legal advice earlier. Basically, they said don't worry too much about divorce yet. Cut the mortgage payments to repayment only. After selling the house, costs, fees etc we'll walk away from our marriage with about 10000 each. I guess looking on the bright side and regarding some of the storiesposted on here that's actually a great result. 

Then I came home to find her car in the drive. Deep breath, stay calm. 

She was really angry when I came in as I've moved all her junk, sorry personal possessions, into a small bedroom. As a result she claimed I had packed her away and was living happily in our nice house and it wasn't fair. Even though she has now realised she has to face the consequences of her actions. Actions which it nows look like meaning she could well be homeless for a month but is that my fault? I stupidly caved and offered her space for that period but she said she didn't think it would work. 

The conversation basically went, me to her, "how are you?". Her to me (cue tears), "me, me, me, me, me, me, me. We are fundamentally different, so I'm done. Me, me, me, me, me, me." For every me in there please insert a cliched WAS justification statement as she basically wrote off our marriage and relationship. 
She said she didn't want to go to MC and I told her I wasn't going to email anyway. She said we had to live separate lives and if that meant me moving to somewhere I actually wanted to live then I should do it (I always wanted to leave the country and she stopped me because of her family/job). Still no talk about divorce! She was playing with her now empty ring finger a lot. She is still very much in the fog. I was calm, didn't push anything. The hardest bit was that she said she knows I'm a nice guy and that she knows that she could make it all stop (she is having panic attacks and almost blacked out the other day) by coming back but doesn't want to. She has decided she has to find herself and maybe there's a possibility in the future but we can't base our lives on it. She feels really guilty but this is all about her. We never thought about our relationship enough and now she is going to work on herself. It's not being strong but she knows it's right. I said OK, do whatever you've got to do, helped her take her stuff out, we had a couple of kisses, I said give me a call because I'm not going to contact you and then she got in her car and drove off. 
It's not even lunchtime yet and I'm ready to crawl back into bed!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Pure victim

Every... single.... word


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Please tell me that's her you're talking about?!? I was a bit irritated with myself for offering her the space but I would do that for a workmate so am hoping that was ok. If you are talking about her I guess she'll move round the triangle to persecutor next?
I know I'm going to feel rubbish later tonight but I thought I did pretty well this time around.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>She was really angry when I came in as I've moved all her junk, sorry personal possessions, into a small bedroom. As a result she claimed I had packed her away and was living happily in our nice house and it wasn't fair.<<

Victim

>>Even though she has now realised she has to face the consequences of her actions. Actions which it nows look like meaning she could well be homeless for a month but is that my fault? I stupidly caved and offered her space for that period but she said she didn't think it would work.<<

Victim (wants you to feel sorry so you move out) 

>>The conversation basically went, me to her, "how are you?". Her to me (cue tears), "me, me, me, me, me, me, me. We are fundamentally different, so I'm done. Me, me, me, me, me, me." For every me in there please insert a cliched WAS justification statement as she basically wrote off our marriage and relationship.<<

Victim

>>She said she didn't want to go to MC and I told her I wasn't going to email anyway. She said we had to live separate lives and if that meant me moving to somewhere I actually wanted to live then I should do it (I always wanted to leave the country and she stopped me because of her family/job). Still no talk about divorce! She was playing with her now empty ring finger a lot. She is still very much in the fog. I was calm, didn't push anything. The hardest bit was that she said she knows I'm a nice guy and that she knows that she could make it all stop (she is having panic attacks and almost blacked out the other day) by coming back but doesn't want to. She has decided she has to find herself and maybe there's a possibility in the future but we can't base our lives on it. She feels really guilty but this is all about her.<<

Victim

>>We never thought about our relationship enough and now she is going to work on herself. It's not being strong but she knows it's right. I said OK, do whatever you've got to do, helped her take her stuff out, we had a couple of kisses, I said give me a call because I'm not going to contact you and then she got in her car and drove off.<<

Victim


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm not sure what to feel at the moment. Happy because I can now see the games that are being played and sort of understand what she is doing or sad because, well, that knowledge doesn't help me feel any better. It just upsets me that things have now descended to this level of idiocy. 

Her self delusional ego has now got so big that she actually said the words, "I think I intoxicate people with my personality". WTF! Just like you said synth, I'm not sure I can take much more of this nonsense!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I'm not sure what to feel at the moment. Happy because I can now see the games that are being played and sort of understand what she is doing or sad because, well, that knowledge doesn't help me feel any better. It just upsets me that things have now descended to this level of idiocy.
> 
> Her self delusional ego has now got so big that she actually said the words, "I think I intoxicate people with my personality". WTF! Just like you said synth, I'm not sure I can take much more of this nonsense!


Mab,

Stay with me now.

Guys do strange things too. But, women tend to get overly emotional when under stress and damned near anything may come out of their mouths. This is ESPECIALLY true if they are emotionally broken, as your wife apparently is.

She is desperate to find "old Mab"... the one who argued with every outrageous statement and chased her around the drama triangle. Only by getting you angry and having you chase her will she gain what she craves... victim status.

She wants you remorseful so she can manipulate the outcome and get you to jump through hoops.

Sound familiar?

Here's what you do.

Nothing.

You simply stand still...as you are doing and reflect back the craziness onto her.

Hold still. Do the 180. Don't join her in the dance.

Cue up my 2 favorite phrases of all time.

"I'm not ok with this" 

and

"How is this helpful?"

Say those things and ask those things without a hint of emotion. Be the rock.

Observe from 50,000 feet.

See what happens. See what she actually does.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Mab,
> 
> Stay with me now.
> 
> ...


What I expect to happen is to get no contact for ages and then a demand to sell the house. Should I be expecting something different?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> What I expect to happen is to get no contact for ages and then a demand to sell the house. Should I be expecting something different?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No that's what you should expect as that's what I have got from my wife.

Still what Conrad says holds true for the most part. You can't join the crazy dance. 

Her demands should not be met right away. This will make you feel like crap if you give in to every demand she has even if it's a step towards moving on. You have to feel comfortable with every single decision you make.

Read my thread. My wife was demanding a quick sale of the house yesterday. I didn't give in. I did end up texting her some needy sentences but oh well, I felt comfortable expressing my feelings. I don't care what she thinks. I was not ready to give her what she was pushing for.

She's off my back for now, but I'm sure deep down she's cooking up new stuff to hurt me with.

It's really painful when all the hurt you're getting is coming from the person you love. Really painful. I can't even understand how I still haven't committed suicide, but I haven't, and that tells me there's a stronger person beneath the loser that I feel like at this moment.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Whoa there! Don't even think about doing anything to yourself! Yes, there are dark times now and there will be more ahead but just remember no matter what she does to you, how awful things are or how messed up she acts putting YOUR life on the line won't help. You need to banish that S word from your mind! 
As for me, well I'm actually quite keen to find out what happens next. I am getting some sort of a weird pleasure out of following her progress. Masochistic, maybe yes, I wish it wasn't me involved but it is interesting! I'm sure that will disappear if a new guy turns up on the scene but I'm not going to sit here and let her self delusion change the way I respond to her. I know I'll mess stuff up, I did stupid stuff before and I'll do it again. I'm not perfect, but I'm all I've got right now. If I let it happen she can ruin me, but I'm not going to let her and neither should you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> What I expect to happen is to get no contact for ages and then a demand to sell the house. Should I be expecting something different?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop expecting anything.

Work on you.

If you are expecting things, your focus is on her.

You've already tried that.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

OK, I just read this article (DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?) after seeing it suggested in synth's thread.
I think my head may be about to explode. It pretty much nailed everything but how is it possible to address the issues it raises? If everything is already set during the first year of life how can things be set right 36 years later? :scratchhead:


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Have felt absolutely rubbish last night and this morning. I'm struggling to shift the focus onto myself because well I'm really unhappy. Before I met my wife I wasn't happy for a long time. I hated being single, I hated friday and saturday nights and not knowing what to do and now it's all back again only this time it's 10 years later and all my mates have left or are settled down. It's something I want to address in IC but that's going to take ages. My job just annoys me because I'm not interested in it and my wife has had a MLC and walked out on me. I'm still breaking down in tears every day and it's not getting any easier. I'm even struggling not to breakdown at the gym now. Could it be time for anti-depressants? I've never wanted to take them because they scare me. Maybe I should try a testosterone shot instead


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> OK, I just read this article (DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?) after seeing it suggested in synth's thread.
> I think my head may be about to explode. It pretty much nailed everything but how is it possible to address the issues it raises? If everything is already set during the first year of life how can things be set right 36 years later? :scratchhead:


Did you say you're going to counseling?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Have felt absolutely rubbish last night and this morning. I'm struggling to shift the focus onto myself because well I'm really unhappy. Before I met my wife I wasn't happy for a long time. I hated being single, I hated friday and saturday nights and not knowing what to do and now it's all back again only this time it's 10 years later and all my mates have left or are settled down. It's something I want to address in IC but that's going to take ages. My job just annoys me because I'm not interested in it and my wife has had a MLC and walked out on me. I'm still breaking down in tears every day and it's not getting any easier. I'm even struggling not to breakdown at the gym now. Could it be time for anti-depressants? I've never wanted to take them because they scare me. Maybe I should try a testosterone shot instead


Mab,

It's vitally important you be happy with yourself before you will be able to be truly happy with someone else.

Medication can help you get through.

But, sometimes, it helps to just see how "bad" it is. Once you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, it can be a catalyst for transformational change.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Just got back from watching prometheus. Talk about symbolism of transformations, ending, starts etc etc. 
I'm not sure "in the cinema, nobody can see you fall to pieces" was a tag line they would want to use but it certainly felt like that was happening to me. 
Started with the dark knight rises trailer which we both were really looking forward to so that started me off and then it got worse during the film. My worry is that this is nowhere near as "bad" as it gets. It's going to be a long way back from here let alone further down...


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

OK, major update. I just got into her email. She hasn't met someone else but is definitely blaming me for everything. I was turning her into a cynic, making it hard to see her parents, I didn't take the breakup well. She didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it but has decided it is the right thing to do. She was really looking forward to the future and knows it is the right choice. Joking that she thought that I thought we were on the mend. Is planning trips abroad and is looking forward to being single again and meeting the next love of her life. 

I AM SO ANGRY I COULD PUNCH HOLES IN THE WALL!!! AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!! 

And here I am wondering how I should email her the bills she needs to pay and crying every 30 minutes.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm so sorry 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1,

I can really feel the pain you're in. I'm in the exact same spot. Very sorry for both of us. I plan to read that article many more times until it has fully sunk in. It's our only hope out of this f***ed up mess.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I don't think I have ever been this angry!!!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> I don't think I have ever been this angry!!!


Went through it 2 days ago. The most rage I had ever felt in life. It wouldn't go away. Still hasn't fully, but it's now changed its form into half-anger, half depression.

Some of my anxiety from the first days of separation is actually back with moments of strong urge to call my wife just to hear her voice. I haven't given in yet.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

so glad synthetic, hang in there mab1, do a lot of reading on here,our stories, it really helps, syn, look at all the advice you've given me. read it brother, conrad may have 2x4's but i'm a mechanic, there's lots of ways ta get ya


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Well one good thing has come out of this. Conrad won't have to keep telling me to stop focussing on her anymore


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Well one good thing has come out of this. Conrad won't have to keep telling me to stop focussing on her anymore


Mab,

She's a cold hearted b*tch.

She sees no reason to change.

Now that you see this, are you able to forgive yourself?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

and today she's sweetness and light because I sorted all the bills so they are in my name. Oh, and she's a little up and down. Poor wittle pickle  

Do I sound a tad pi**ed there?

I blame my MC she agreed that I had every right to be angry and it was important to acknowledge it. 

Still not quite forgiven myself though Conrad but I'm definitely on the way.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> and today she's sweetness and light because I sorted all the bills so they are in my name. Oh, and she's a little up and down. Poor wittle pickle
> 
> Do I sound a tad pi**ed there?
> 
> ...


Why are you paying her to leave you?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm not. It's loads cheaper for me to stay here than to move out and rent. The plan is to stay here for as long as possible and save as much as I can. If that means taking on some bills then it's worth it for now. I may get a lodger too to make some money if I can swing it for long enough.
I guess to her I've probably done some rescuing behaviour so she thinks she's back in charge again.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ok - protect yourself.

When I hear you are agreeing to pay for things, my minds' eye heads toward the lumber yard.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

OW,OW,OW,OW. That is the sound of me hitting myself in the head with a 2x4 which is spare from the carpenters bench I built from scratch 3 months ago (and have never used in anger and is sat in the shed we had a massive row about)!

One relatively friendly email thanking me for making her life easier. An email during which she makes it clear she is moving on and doesn't refer to our home as home but just says the name of the town and I'm suddenly right back to square one.

To say I'm having massive detachment issues would be a huge understatement. Knowing I have abandonment issues and dealing with them are two very different things


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So, I seen to be running out if steam a bit following my initial burst of energy. Anyone got any good tips on how to keep moving forward? I want to use this crisis constructively but can feel myself slacking off as mental fatigue kicks in...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> So, I seen to be running out if steam a bit following my initial burst of energy. Anyone got any good tips on how to keep moving forward? I want to use this crisis constructively but can feel myself slacking off as mental fatigue kicks in...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anytime you are running on "negative energy" - to show her this or that, it won't last.

When you are running on your own positive energy - pursuing your own life and dreams, it will never run out.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> So, I seen to be running out if steam a bit following my initial burst of energy. Anyone got any good tips on how to keep moving forward? I want to use this crisis constructively but can feel myself slacking off as mental fatigue kicks in...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Find more female friends. No need to get romantic with anyone. Just spend your time with females. Attractive ones if possible. It really helps.

There's something in the air they exhale.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Find more female friends. No need to get romantic with anyone. Just spend your time with females. Attractive ones if possible. It really helps.
> 
> There's something in the air they exhale.


Somewhat struggling there. I'm a scientist and so work in a very male dominated geeky world. My circle of friends round here is small due to the codependancy thing and anyway they've all settled down so aren't much help there.

Was thinking of speed dating but it just seems a bit rubbish!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Somewhat struggling there. I'm a scientist and so work in a very male dominated geeky world. My circle of friends round here is small due to the codependancy thing and anyway they've all settled down so aren't much help there.
> 
> Was thinking of speed dating but it just seems a bit rubbish!


I was going to say forget speed dating, but I don't know how it really works. Give it a try. It's not gonna kill you!

Spend time with your friends and their wives/girlfriends. Again, it's not about them being single. It's actually even better when they're not (you won't do anything to regret later).

If you have friends who are married with no children, get them to come to a bar and have drinks with you. It really really helps.

In general, just add more female presence to your world in any shape or form you can (without getting romantic with anyone).

Try not to make up excuses for yourself. It's so easy to get cornered by sadness and anger. We both have good reasons to be sad and angry, but I don't think we want to waste our time on those negative feelings. Sometimes they're overwhelming and need to be felt, but other times they can be deflected if we're in the right company.

Take advantage of this absolute freedom you've got (It won't last forever cuz you'll end up in a routine at some point) and do all sorts of crazy sh**. Hey, there's no wife to report to! How awesome is that?!


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I don't like this rollercoaster any more. I want to get off! This morning I felt nervous, by lunch I was numb and now I just feel rubbish. I absolutely broke down on the way home. So full of guilt for some of the stupid things I did. I've apologised for them but she wasn't really listening. I just feel so full of remorse that it hurts. Yes, she left but I had a massive role in it. 

I'm meant to be arranging a trip to Toronto to see a friend but right now all I want to do is crawl in bed. I'll try going for a run instead though.

The final electric/gas bill which she owes money on was waiting for me at home too. So I do have a legitimate reason to ring but I'm not sure it would be a good idea now. I really want to talk to her now but I know I would just end up apologising over and over. I'm a complete mess, I'm nowhere near ready to forgive myself yet.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If you don't arrange that trip to Toronto, I foresee....











in your future.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Unfortunately, I didn't organise Toronto. It's just too expensive due to the Olympics bumping all the flight costs up. I don't know if I should be spending that amount of money right now.

Last night was probably the second worst night of my life. I don't know if I have the strength to deal with this. Her actions are completely incompatible with my idea of marriage. Is that a problem with me? Am I lashing out because of frustration at her actions? I know I haven't given this the time it needs but do I wait for the 'I've met someone else' speech. I am seriously considering D for the first time ever.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> but do I wait for the 'I've met someone else' speech.


And feel crushed once more? Why? You know it's going to happen. What are you going to do before she shoots that cannon your way? Stand there defenseless?



> I am seriously considering D for the first time ever.


Forget divorce. It's just a piece of paper. Quite insignificant compared to what you can achieve via detachment.

DETACH: I know it's just a word to you right now. It was to me too. Now I now what it means. It's your ticket to a healthy life.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for being in love, but seriously, how lovable is your wife right now? I bet not lovable at all.

Get out of her love cage and explore the endless possibilities. You won't stop caring for her or loving her, but you will actually find yourself unwilling to be a doormat.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Talk about morning after night before! Went out with a friend and ended up drinking a bit too much. Not sure that was a great idea. Really struggled not to get in touch with her as I was we were in a bar 30 seconds from her department. Very happy that I resisted the urge! Had fun but feeling rubbish now. Obviously, drinking is not the answer here! Feeling pretty low now. Not rock bottom but low nonetheless. I have IC tonight and am hoping to go to see a comedian after tickets permitting.

I'm also a bit concerned I may be transferring my feelings onto a girl I work with. I know it's a terrible idea right now but it feels nice to have a connection with someone.

Had another teary session on the way to work. I had to collect my car from where I left it last night and saw her cycling. Don't think she saw me. Am feeling very sad about how quickly our life and futures together seems to have faded away


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I know it's a terrible idea right now


Why is it a terrible idea? it's an excellent idea. You're not asking her to marry you. You're just enjoying her company. She won't let you do that if she's not mutually enjoying it.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Why is it a terrible idea? it's an excellent idea. You're not asking her to marry you. You're just enjoying her company. She won't let you do that if she's not mutually enjoying it.


Because I'm still a complete wreck and I'll more than likely end up doing something stupid. Still it might be worth more consideration before I dismiss it. 

Think I'm probably going to get a visitation this weekend as a load of post turned up. She is obviously still having stuff sent here and not to her current place as it's all recently posted. Wonder what I'll get this time - angry, victim or just uninterested?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

W came over today to collect post and sign some forms. We had a really nice chat and everything was very pleasant. She admitted feeling guilty again, but said the rational side of her brain kept telling her it was 50/50. Was telling me about work, what she's been up to, her IC. Apparently, she has dad issues plus self worth and neediness issues all of which I could have told her for free! I tried to keep everything light and fun, ignored anything like a jibe in my directions, tried not to talk about me too much. Mentioned a few of things I'd been doing to get a life like running, cooking lunch for the lab and organising nights out like last night. I mirrored her as much as I could and there was plenty of eye contact and smiling. No physical contact at all though. Also she didn't mention divorce or anything about selling the house either.
I did make a couple of errors. 1) We have paid in advance for a nice meal out that we can have anytime before september. I asked what she wanted to do with it and she said september's a long time away but if I could find anyone else to go with then feel free. 2) Just before she left she was deciding how much of her homemade cider to take with her (it was one of her projects in the garden that I helped out with). I said something along the lines of there's no rush we're not totally done yet and we're both going to be around for a while so collect them next time. Immediately the barriers went up. As she was walking out of the door she said,
"I hope I'm being explicit enough, I don't want you to get any false hopes" to which I responded "no, no, I don't want talk about it. You've made things pretty clear by getting your own flat! She said OK and have a nice week" and I closed the door before she drove off (that is a 180 thing because I always waved her goodbye when we were together). She has definitely decided this is the right thing to do for now and I think she is using me for a little emotional support.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Stop asking her for anything.

Just stop.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Stop asking her for anything.
> 
> Just stop.


I know. Even as I was asking the questions I was thinking, "shut the f##I up! Stop it!" But, I just got too carried away...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I know. Even as I was asking the questions I was thinking, "shut the f##I up! Stop it!" But, I just got too carried away...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_












As will I.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

OK, after 30 mins rowing I am starting to face up to a few home truths.
1) My wife is definitely going to take her stuff and move out to a flat. Don't know why I've been avoiding thinking about this but IT IS HAPPENING! We may reconcile, I'll give it my best shot but it's not looking likely so what then?
2) I will be 38 in August. My current contract runs out in 1 1/2 years and I am not going to be able to stay in my current role after that. So what then?
3) I can mess around filling time at weekends and in the evenings but I am going to have to leave this house and move on. So what then?
I have never spent much time pondering these things before. I was young and I partied a lot and played a lot of sports. I did a PhD. I met my wife and we had a great 10 years together. I have pretty much ignored my own life goals in that time so much so that I don't actually know what I want from life any more. Now I am faced with a new, scary dawn. Obviously, I'm not looking for immediate answers to these questions. This is something I am going to discuss a length my IC (unless he keeps asking me "how does that make me feel" in which case I'm getting a new one!) but if anyone could point me in the direction of some resources which may help me on the way I would be really grateful.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1, 

when you were happily married and thought "this is it", what did you usually think about when you listened to your favorite songs?

I know this is a very personal question. Feel free to not answer it, but if you do choose to answer, be as honest as you can please.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

What an interesting question. After 10 mins of thinking my answer is actually wife-independant as it was the same before and during my marriage. When listening to my favorite songs I actually don't think about anything. For the few minutes whilst the song is on I am listening to and am totally lost in the song. Nothing more, nothing less. Does that make sense? Why do you ask?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> What an interesting question. After 10 mins of thinking my answer is actually wife-independant as it was the same before and during my marriage. When listening to my favorite songs I actually don't think about anything. For the few minutes whilst the song is on I am listening to and am totally lost in the song. Nothing more, nothing less. Does that make sense? Why do you ask?


The fact that you admit to it being wife-independent is quite telling. I actually knew you'd say that.

As for not thinking about anything, I don't know if that's entirely true. As a man, you're driven to being recognized, loved and victorious. Most of your thoughts revolve around those three things. There must be self-created scenarios in your imagination that satisfy your need to visualize The Great Mab1. 

Those are the actual dreams we carry in our mind most of our life without ever going after them.

Think harder.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> As a man, you're driven to being recognized, loved and victorious. Most of your thoughts revolve around those three things.


I think this underpins a lot of the hurt I am feeling now. My wife provided me with all those 3 things and so I stopped looking to achieve them for myself. Due to battles she is having with herself, she isn't providing them any more so I have to start the search anew. I just haven't got a clue where to even start looking. When I get told to focus on myself I really, really struggle to find something to focus on. So instead, I end up making short term changes that don't really move me forward at all. Maybe, I'm overthinking things but it seems like a very good time to address things like this.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> My wife provided me with all those 3 things and so I stopped looking to achieve them for myself.


You're very wrong. Your wife is not the person who can provide you with any of these. She didn't even love you enough to consider you worthy of the vows she proudly committed to when you got married. She lied to herself about her feelings. Someone like that is not a trustworthy shoulder to lean on.

The only way to feel loved is to love yourself. You don't love yourself. It's very clear from your posts. You don't love yourself. This is a very serious problem. This is exactly why you and I got into this mess. We never loved ourselves.



> Maybe, I'm overthinking things but it seems like a very good time to address things like this.


You can't address them in one or two weeks. It's the decision to address them that will force you to depart the current circular mindf*** you've fallen into.

Read the article in my signature at least 10 times. I really mean it. 10 times or more. You need to actually memorize every word of it. There's an audio version available. It's your ticket to freedom.

I'm not free by any stretch of imagination. I'm in the same boat as you are. As always, it's easier to preach than practice.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So I almost asked her to go to a music festival with me this afternoon but then thought better of it and decided to go on my own. Halfway there I decided that actually I didn't really want to go it was just something to do so turned round went home.

On the way back I was driving through the countryside and remembered a book called freakonomics. One of the key points of that book is that people are driven by incentive. Eg A realtor has no real incentive to sell YOUR house for £1000 more a month later then your current bid if they only receive $30 extra commission. If they sell their own house for $1000 more a month later then it definitely worth it to them and so what happens is that realtors' houses sell for more and are on the market longer than an average house.

So what can I take from this? Well at the moment my W's life is relatively straightforward. She is in a nice house, rent free (for now) in a picture postcard little village. She can do what she wants, when she wants. She doesn't have to worry about anyone elses feelings or moods. Her job is secure for 3 years at least. She will soon have her one bed flat, her cat, her family and her work. Who knows there may be an EA/PA too but I don't think so. All in all life is looking pretty promising for her.

The only issues she has are this man who she has all these memories of. A lot of guilt regarding walking away from a marriage, currently feeling very lonely and a number of issues regarding an electra complex and self esteem.

She is dealing with the guilt and loneliness by ignoring it and hoping they go away over time. She's dealing with the self esteem and electra stuff by seeing an IC. The only thing she can't deal with is the man and he keeps making life more difficult for her so is actually giving her an incentive to leave him behind.

So I guess what I need to do is stop making her life more difficult and then work out a way of actually incentivising (i think it's a word  ) her not to want to leave me behind. That is where I start to struggle as everything which worked before has stopped working.

As many people have worked hard to point out to me (and thanks again guys, I am trying to learn honestly!) panic mode is never going to work. There's no incentive to return to something that makes you feel worse! Right now what I need to do is find a way of maintaining just enough positive contact that she doesn't actually want to leave me behind completely. Once that's achieved I can implement the work carried out on love languages etc. If it can't be achieved well then that's game over anyway.
All my backsliding on the 180 is turning positive contacts into negative ones. I guess what GALing does is twofold - 1) it makes the LBS more interesting and happier and 2) a happier LBS reminds the WAS that all those memories aren't all negative. There are lots of good ones in there too which are currently being buried by the negatives.
So what I need to work out is A)how to maintain these contacts and B) how to keep them positive. WRT A - Pretty soon there won't be any need for me to contact her. The bills are all swapped over, the only things left to deal with is a house and a divorce. They aren't really great starting points! I can't imagine watching her extract her half of the house is going to be a pleasant experience either. Random phone calls and invites are currently a no no as they will be regarded as negative and pressurising. I'm not sure she'll be contacting me any time soon as life is too good for now. She won't come to MC so that's out but I don't want to rely on fate here. I'm going to need to do something or it'll drive me mental! Is there anything I can do other than cross my fingers and wait?

WRT B - to make the contacts positive, I need to be positive. That's pretty difficult right now with naysayers left, right and centre, my own low self esteem and desperation. First thing to do is sort my work life out. I'm going to a careers festival on thursday and I'm going to starting work on a plan to leave academia there. It's not where I want to be so I should do something about it. In the meantime I'm going to finish my current project in 6-9months.
For the self esteem stuff I'll try and work out in IC. I'm not sure either councillor is quite right at the moment. The MC wants me to get angrier, man up and start standing up to my wife. I'm not sure about the IC yet but he hasn't started well with all the fhow does that make you feel stuff.

I'm also going to start volunteering, preferably something outdoors and physically active. I'm not sure what yet but I need to start getting more people involved in my life. Being lonely is stopping me being positive.
I'm going to turn one gym session into a class session so at least there are people around who I could interact with unlike in the gym.
I've signed up to get involved in a social committee at work which has just been started.
I'm going to try and find a club to get involved in. The problem here is I'm not sure which club! I have just seen a social club which offers all sorts of events so maybe that is an option. Any other tips will be gratefully received!


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm angry again now after my MC session. I let myself end up in the position I'm now in by not standing up for myself enough. 
Now I'm moping around hoping that a few volunteer sessions and losing a bit of weight will convince her I've changed and that I'm a new man. Well, she should have bloody said something was wrong rather than just running away. 
I know she is in contact with a load of people who are around the world, having fun climbing mountains and skiiing and stuff but I wasn't allowed to do that. She was scared of the sea, scared of heights, wouldn't move abroad because of her family, wouldn't have my children who knows why, wouldn't go skiing because she wasn't interested. And now she says she feels young again without me. Whilst she goes to classical music concerts, reads classic novel, talks neuroscience all day and then goes to bed at 9. And what really annoys me is that I feel so f'in rubbish all the f'in time. Because she spent 10 years moulding me, married me and has now said actually no I don't like the look of that model, I'll throw it away and start afresh. I'm the one who agonises over the next guy who turns up being better than me because my self esteem is down the toilet. Then she has the nerve to come round and start chatting about her f'in IC revelations (that she wants to sleep with her dad!) before telling me that she doesn't want to give me false hope. ARRGGGH!!!
I'm also assuming this anger will wear off in about 2 hours and I'll be in bits again. ARRGGH!!!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

It's tough to realize these things isn't it?

Don't blame yourself for not standing up to her. You didn't really have a chance from the get go. You were groomed by your parents and the society to be the kind of person you are. She got to know your weak spots and used them to control you in many ways. That would've been fine if she wasn't so heartless to eventually leave you. 

Always remember: SHE LEFT. A first class crime in marriage.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I'm angry again now after my MC session. I let myself end up in the position I'm now in by not standing up for myself enough.
> Now I'm moping around hoping that a few volunteer sessions and losing a bit of weight will convince her I've changed and that I'm a new man. Well, she should have bloody said something was wrong rather than just running away.
> I know she is in contact with a load of people who are around the world, having fun climbing mountains and skiiing and stuff but I wasn't allowed to do that. She was scared of the sea, scared of heights, wouldn't move abroad because of her family, wouldn't have my children who knows why, wouldn't go skiing because she wasn't interested. And now she says she feels young again without me. Whilst she goes to classical music concerts, reads classic novel, talks neuroscience all day and then goes to bed at 9. And what really annoys me is that I feel so f'in rubbish all the f'in time. Because she spent 10 years moulding me, married me and has now said actually no I don't like the look of that model, I'll throw it away and start afresh. I'm the one who agonises over the next guy who turns up being better than me because my self esteem is down the toilet. Then she has the nerve to come round and start chatting about her f'in IC revelations (that she wants to sleep with her dad!) before telling me that she doesn't want to give me false hope. ARRGGGH!!!
> I'm also assuming this anger will wear off in about 2 hours and I'll be in bits again. ARRGGH!!!


Mab,

Anger is a productive emotion if you channel it in a positive direction.

Get mad at yourself. I know I was mad as hell at myself after I realized what I'd done - in both marriages.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Quick update: no contact, no change

I've just been talking to one of our close mutual friends who has just started working the lab next door. There definitely isn't anyone else involved at the moment. I'm worried that our friend has given me false hopes though. Our friend thinks we just need to get together and talk things through because my W wasn't happy at all when they spoke about 2 weeks ago. According to her right now my W is forcing herself through it by focussing on work and her new place but in 6 months or so when reality kicks in things may change completely. It all sounds very different from the picture that I am being given.

Our friend has offered to contact my W and act as an intermediary but I said no that's a bad idea. It would put our friend in a potentially horrible situation and again would seem like pursuing behaviour on my behalf. Really tempted to reach out again now especially as my wife paid into the joint account last month by mistake and has still not taken it out which I could remind her about.

I booked flights to see a friend in toronto in two weeks. It feels weird to be doing things like that without her. I am missing her like crazy right now. It's worse than when I gave up smoking! On the advice of my MC I'm going to try and stay dark until I get back from Canada but I'm not certain I'll manage it. All the arguments just seem so trivial now.


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

Mab,

If synthetic can do it, I know you can too.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Damn, I seem to be stuck. Really enjoyed my class at the gym last night and came home in a pretty good mood. The women:men ratio was about 10:1 which was nice 

Ate dinner, went to bed, read a book and went to sleep easily. So far, so good. Then bang I was wide awake at 12.30am. So, I checked facebook to see my W has made a new friend, a neuroscientist from New Zealand. We're still married on facebook too. Immediately, I'm back to feeling hopeless again.
I'd sort of hoped she'd gone away and that was why she hadn't sorted her money in the joint account out. But no, she's still around and I'm the only person on the planet who can't talk to her. Is it right that I'm incredibly jealous of her ability to move on? She is doing everything right, working on herself with a councillor, improving her career, seemingly enjoying life. I'm trying to do the same, am doing the same stuff but I'm just stuck in a repeating loop of anger, frustration and depression! I'm spending all my time on forums looking for hope and having to leave work 3 times a day because I'm about to burst into tears.

All from one facebook message. Still going to keep dark though. BTW how does going dark work on facebook? Should I stop adding comments to mutual friends status updates or is that ok?


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## donkler (May 21, 2012)

My personal advice is unless you have a real good reason, and I mean REAL good reason to go on Facebook, press the diactivate account button for a while.

The temptation to look at her profile is enormous and at the end of the day does you no good whatsoever.

6,9,18 months down the twisty road there is no reason why you cannot reactivate your account.

So from me, give it a break, it helped me massively, and I see no reason to ever have a facebook account again. The only reason I would have one is if I have really close friends.......overseas!


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

whew, really struggling with the whole staying dark thing today. Have been a wreck all weekend. Just read Canguy's thread and I just cannot comprehend being able to reach where he is now. I'm still stuck at hoping to reconcile and it's only been a week since the latest 'don't get false hopes' speech. 
Almost two months since BD and I am still breaking down in tears on a regular basis. Very bored and lonely right now. Did some volunteering yesterday hacking down nettles. It was OK but I don't want to sound horrible but hanging round with a load of retirees may not be the best thing for me now! 
Still can't believe this is happening. Where did my marriage disappear to?


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

mab1 said:


> whew, really struggling with the whole staying dark thing today. Have been a wreck all weekend. Just read Canguy's thread and I just cannot comprehend being able to reach where he is now. I'm still stuck at hoping to reconcile and it's only been a week since the latest 'don't get false hopes' speech.
> Almost two months since BD and I am still breaking down in tears on a regular basis. Very bored and lonely right now. Did some volunteering yesterday hacking down nettles. It was OK but I don't want to sound horrible but hanging round with a load of retirees may not be the best thing for me now!
> Still can't believe this is happening. Where did my marriage disappear to?


I'm right there with you, hard hard hard weekend, those are the worst for me, usually work keeps me running so at night it's tam & tv & bed, but the f'ing weekends kill me the worst. I'm there with you & am feeling that same pain badly
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

mab1 said:


> whew, really struggling with the whole staying dark thing today. Have been a wreck all weekend. Just read Canguy's thread and I just cannot comprehend being able to reach where he is now. I'm still stuck at hoping to reconcile and it's only been a week since the latest 'don't get false hopes' speech.
> Almost two months since BD and I am still breaking down in tears on a regular basis. Very bored and lonely right now. Did some volunteering yesterday hacking down nettles. It was OK but I don't want to sound horrible but hanging round with a load of retirees may not be the best thing for me now!
> Still can't believe this is happening. Where did my marriage disappear to?


Don't falter.

After dealing with OVS, I'm having a temporary lumber shortage. Don't take advantage of me.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

Conrad&Janie said:


> Don't falter.
> 
> After dealing with OVS, I'm having a temporary lumber shortage. Don't take advantage of me.


& I'm grateful Conrad, don't know why I'm so up and down, like I said I could sit here & pick 100 things that have drove me crazy with her that at the time I would think I don't need this s**t, but when I try to focus on the things I don't/didn't like about her my brain switches again to how I miss her & what's doing now, is the pos om with her & I end up hurting inside bad, that's what I need to change, 
Sorry for the thread jack
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I could have written that word for word myself!

This no contact thing is really confusing. The cycle goes like this: I start by thinking that by not ringing I am saying I don't care that she's left so I'm confirming her decision to label me as the root of all evil. Then I think all I'll do is make her feel better anyway. Then I think well she should ring me first after all she's causing all this. Then I think but what if she's feeling too guilty? If I don't ring then we'll not talk again till she wants furniture. So, maybe I should ring in the spirit of making the first move? Then I think every time I've made an effort she put the barriers up anyway, so I'm better off not ringing. And then I go back to the start of the cycle. 

Right now, I'm close to the making the first move stage. I'll see how I feel tomorrow before I do anything though.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

mab1 said:


> I could have written that word for word myself!
> 
> This no contact thing is really confusing. The cycle goes like this: I start by thinking that by not ringing I am saying I don't care that she's left so I'm confirming her decision to label me as the root of all evil. Then I think all I'll do is make her feel better anyway. Then I think well she should ring me first after all she's causing all this. Then I think but what if she's feeling too guilty? If I don't ring then we'll not talk again till she wants furniture. So, maybe I should ring in the spirit of making the first move? Then I think every time I've made an effort she put the barriers up anyway, so I'm better off not ringing. And then I go back to the start of the cycle.
> 
> Right now, I'm close to the making the first move stage. I'll see how I feel tomorrow before I do anything though.


Yep, just like me but when I do it just hurts, so no more, she's emailed-text& called 3 times, she is in no way used to this & I'm sure her brain is going crazy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

How long did it take before she started trying to get in touch?


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

mab1 said:


> How long did it take before she started trying to get in touch?


She never stopped, she's completly financially dependent on me, any contact at all I just burst out with everything that will push her away, read some of my threads, I feel your pain
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I don't know what to do! No contact is absolutely doing my head in but being stubborn and uncommunicative is what got me into this position in the first place! :scratchhead: I don't want to do that any more, I've learnt so much in the last few weeks and I just want to use it to help us start again. I believe in our marriage. I just don't know how much longer I can carry on like this.


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

mab1 said:


> I don't know what to do! No contact is absolutely doing my head in but being stubborn and uncommunicative is what got me into this position in the first place! :scratchhead: I don't want to do that any more, I've learnt so much in the last few weeks and I just want to use it to help us start again. I believe in our marriage. I just don't know how much longer I can carry on like this.


She has to ask Mab.

I can only tell you that's how it works.

Your challenge is to feel good enough about yourself that you're ok even if she doesn't.

Make sense?


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## wolsey (Jul 11, 2012)

Hi Mab1

I felt compelled to actually sign up to write you some advice, because it seems like as good as a lot of the advice so far has been, it has come from people who are still somewhat down the same dark hole as you.

As someone who went through it long enough ago to be "50,000 feet above it", the advice you've been given to avoid contact as much as possible is crucial. At this stage you have to accept it is over for her (sorry, man) and pretty much ANYTHING you say to try and change that is just going to end with you looking like a **** (either weak and whiny or bullying and bullheaded).

Obviously, as you've got friends and assets in common, you're going to have to see each other occasionally, and then you should be polite and friendly. In time, aim for a new relationship with her where you might possibly a drink and a laugh about the old days and remember what you liked, if not loved, about each other. But don't push for this.

If you can't use it for self-improvement, don't dwell on why she left. You know there were issues that you were both fueling (you generously claim you more than her), but she made the call to cut and run rather than put the work into fixing them. Doesn't matter why, that's the call she made and as much as it sucks, you just have to live with it.

Unfortunately, even as you try to move on, you're probably going to find the next few months just as s#%!! as the last, and again, there isn't much you can do about this - just ride it out like a really long flu and try not to act on any rash impulses.

But after that it gets so much better. Follow the advice of others and get involved in fun stuff. I'm definitely not advocating binge drinking and one-night-stands, but I bet you pounds to peanuts there's stuff you gave up for marriage because you didn't have time/money or the wife made it uncomfortable to pursue (either by complaining or mocking). Picking these up again with a vengeance is about the most satisfying 'revenge' you can have.

And your idea about doing some volunteer/community work is great as, not only will you get to focus on new things and people, but also it will remind you that you are a good person who generally does good things, regardless of how she currently perceives you.

I know at the moment the marriage ending compounds those other niggles (selling the house, job contract ending) to make it seem like the whole worlds ending. But I can almost guarantee you that by the time you have to start job-hunting you'll see this as a crisitunity (to quote Homer Simpson) thats opend up whole worlds of possibility to an intelligent man of science such as yourself.

Good luck!


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

wolsey said:


> Hi Mab1
> 
> I felt compelled to actually sign up to write you some advice, because it seems like as good as a lot of the advice so far has been, it has come from people who are still somewhat down the same dark hole as you.
> 
> ...


Word


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad&Janie said:


> Word


Thank you again guys. I'm really trying hard to maintain the NC and haven't contacted her at all. It feels like I'm dying inside a bit more each day.
I went out to a meetup session last night and enjoyed it. It's no replacement for my wife though. It's not getting easier yet. My MC is pushing me towards D and moving on. She wants me to break the NC and force the furniture issue (her new place is unfurnished so she wants stuff from here). Can't decide if I want to do it or not. Seems like a provocative thing to do and right now I just don't want to. I'm still married and want it to stay that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad&Janie (Jul 2, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Thank you again guys. I'm really trying hard to maintain the NC and haven't contacted her at all. It feels like I'm dying inside a bit more each day.
> I went out to a meetup session last night and enjoyed it. It's no replacement for my wife though. It's not getting easier yet. My MC is pushing me towards D and moving on. She wants me to break the NC and force the furniture issue (her new place is unfurnished so she wants stuff from here). Can't decide if I want to do it or not. Seems like a provocative thing to do and right now I just don't want to. I'm still married and want it to stay that way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do not do or pay for anything you're not ok with doing.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Hm, interesting. Mutual lab mate is joining W on a fun run on sunday. Would love to join them after and celebrate but is obviously not going to happen. But I should get to find out a bit more of what is going on anyway. Can't decide if knowing more is actually a good thing or not! Labmate wants to know whether she should mention Canada, I said why not shows I'm doing stuff without her. She's also going to try and suggest some sort of get together between me and W but I said that really had to come from her as this is her decision.

I'm actually concerned that I'm getting optimistic.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I actually broke the NC today by email. One of her scientific papers got published today so I emailed to say congratulations. We bounced a couple of emails back and forth (mine were light and jokey, hers were quite straight). I would say she's amicable but reserved. It's exactly what I expected from someone who is trying to distance themselves and was exactly what I'm supposed to be doing in fact!

It was the sort of cool interaction which seems to get my MC all agitated and so she tries to force me to get angry and to start confronting my W, an approach which I'm not happy with. I know I can't be a doormat but I don't feel the need to be provocative. There will be some really tough times ahead and I'm in no hurry to reach them yet.

I did actually feel quite good afterwards because I didn't get overly enthusiastic. Although I guess that's fairly easy to do over email as I could consider my responses.

It seems that if I initiate contact she will reciprocate but she is obviously worried by having too much contact so I'll need to be very careful not to go overboard. I still can't decide whether to tell her that the house is empty whilst I'm away. She told me she hasn't got anywhere to stay prior to moving into her flat so is staying at friends houses. If it was a friend of mine I would say they can stay here, but this obviously isn't as straightforward as that.

Have arranged to go out for drinks with some friends tomorrow night. I know I'll feel wierd at the end of the night not to be going home with my W but am trying to prepare myself in advance.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mab,

You say your marriage counselor wants you angry?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Yes, the MC is trying to push me to take control and demand action regarding moving her stuff out and D plans. Not keen on doing that so haven't!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Yes, the MC is trying to push me to take control and demand action regarding moving her stuff out and D plans. Not keen on doing that so haven't!


Do you have to be angry to do that?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

No, but that's what she wants me to be. Right now I am just trying to keep it together and don't want to add to the problem by pushing her to do stuff. She can ring me.

So frustrated with myself right now too. Had a great night last night with some old friends. Problem was the conversation kept getting back to wife and me. Not my doing, I didn't bring it up but it kept happening. Everyone was trying to give me tips on what to do. It took every once of self control I have not to ring W when i got home. Now I've got my expectations up again and it's stupid! IC says I'm being too hard on myself but I feel like I've gone back 5 steps. I even caught myself considering canceling my trip if we could arrange an evening together next week which is mental! Friend from from the lab seems hell bent on trying to fix us and that's getting me excited with no basis in reskirt. Now I've thrown career concerns into the mix too and I'm seriously considering staying in bed all day! I can't as I've loads to do today but it all seems like such an effort right now. Why won't I let myself let go? It's not rational. Aarggh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mab,

You need some lumber?

What does any of it matter - really?

Just live your life.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I confess, i cracked. I'm soaking wet, on my own but surrounded by 1000s of people who are all in groups and I was feeling crap. So I rang her. She answered second ring. I was really upbeat and let her know I was at this big event. She had been cleaning the place where she's staying and was about to start watching twilight. I told her about Canada and said she could collect stuff whilst I was away. She thanked me and then assumed one further and is going to stay at our house whilst I'm not there. Not sure if I'm happy about that but legally i can't stop her. She did make numerous references to her new place which I ignored. She also said she always wanted to go back to Canada but then trailed off ie don't forget we're through(we had a great holiday there a few years ago). I ended the call first. She made a big point of asking to speak to me when I got back. Presume it will be about furniture. My family are not impressed with me at all!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab,

it's alright mate. I cracked tonight too.

btw, I'm in Toronto. I'll PM you my number. If you feel like talking, just call. Don't call her anymore. She doesn't "get it".


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic said:


> mab,
> 
> it's alright mate. I cracked tonight too.
> 
> btw, I'm in Toronto. I'll PM you my number. If you feel like talking, just call. Don't call her anymore. She doesn't "get it".


Welcome back Synthetic.










Cracked you say?

Tell me about it.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Ok, this is going to sound seriously negative and more than a bit paranoid but it is something which I guess I have to consider and any help would be greatly appreciated.

My problem is this - what if I am completely barking up the wrong tree? At the moment I trust my wife completely and in the two months since BD I've been working hard to improve myself because I 100% want to rescue our marriage. She hasn't given me any reason to doubt her integrity either. But what if the monster has completely taken over? What I haven't really given any serious thought to is practicalities if it doesn't work as I would like, or actually gets nasty. I haven't had much in the way of positives and my concern is that my wife and her family may be playing me. 

The seriously paranoid way of looking at my sitch is to think that she has given me two months to get myself back on my feet to help with her guilt whilst in the meantime sorting herself out with a flat. Then after she moves out, I'll still be working hard on trying to reconcile but she never intends to and then a month or two later she starts with the demands to sell this place, she's never coming back, she wants a divorce etc etc. Right now I just can't believe my wife would do that, she hasn't even touched the money in the joint account without asking me if it was ok, but her folks definitely would. I'm worried that the time she spends here without me will completely tip the scales against our R and I have to get myself prepared for it.

Am I just being stupid and allowing fear to rule me or should I start taking action now? Flathunting etc


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

No, I know the feeling. It's not stupid, nor is it something you should nurture.

Your wife is not planning anything. She's too confused and fragile to do anything like that. But she definitely can turn into a monster if the right forces influence her and you give her what her paranoid mind is looking for.

Once the fog has cleared a bit (on both sides), heart-to-heart communication does have to resume. That way you will either detach or attach at relatively the same pace. Most separations end up in slow detachment. That's because both parties realize their self-worth and get excited about the alternative possibilities. 

Do not count on R. You're setting yourself up for a lot of hurt, confusion and possibly years of anguish. You're giving her all the power in an already unfair game with a tilted playing field. Why would you do that? 

Start socializing with other women. Find out what you're worth to the society. Understand that you have a choice. You've currently chosen to not understand this very simple fact.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks synth. I know it's 99.9% improbable but at the start of May I was happily married. Things have changed so fast!

Latest update. Apparently she's not ready to talk to me as she has to finish therapy for her subconscious issues. A statement that is pretty much guaranteed to send me nuts! Does that mean she will be ready one day? Ready for what? To put the boot in again? To discuss our on hold marriage? When will she be ready? Seriously confused right now! It's almost like she wants me to take the decision to end it allowing her to rid herself of her guilt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> It's almost like she wants me to take the decision to end it allowing her to rid herself of her guilt.


And that's what you will NOT do.

You will follow the path most people in your(our) shoes do. You will slowly detach. Not by choice, but to survive. She has made that choice for you.

She will regret it one day. Most likely when it's too late.

If you want it to happen sooner than later, start socializing and qualifying your true worth. Explore your options as far as other women go (you don't have to sleep with them) and feel free to let your wife know about it. You will know how much she really cares.

If she doesn't, then why stick around?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> And that's what you will NOT do.
> 
> You will follow the path most people in your(our) shoes do. You will slowly detach. Not by choice, but to survive. She has made that choice for you.
> 
> ...


Man, I am so conflicted right now it is untrue. I'm in the best shape I've been in for years but the moment I see a girl checking me out I feel incredibly guilty. I never once contemplated an affair but she left me. Am I single or not? Am I married or not?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Oh wow, seriously back in panic mode again. Just realised that by the time I get back from holiday I physically won't have seen my W for a month and barely had contact for weeks. Tomorrow is 2 months since BD too. Feels like withdrawal symptoms have started again!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

You are neither single or married. You are SEPARATED which means you can do whatever the hell your moral dictates. I don't think your moral has a problem with you socializing with other women while your wife has betrayed your marriage by leaving you.

In time, you'll realize that not seeing your wife has helped you gain a sense of "self" and that's a good thing for you as a single or married man. Don't mix the good stuff with the bad stuff.

Yes, it's hard. Yes it's sad that your wife left. Yes she broke your heart. Yes it's uncharted territory for you.

But time physically apart is a blessing in disguise for your codependent mind. Have you read the article in my signature yet?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks again synth. I've read the article loads of times and also the book codependent no more. There's definitely elements in both that fit our M completely. 
It's going to be really wierd knowing that my W is going to be back in our house whilst I'm away. I hope she'll get a flavour of just how crap it is living there whilst the other person has disappeared. Somehow I doubt it. She'll probably use it as a way of confirming just how 'done' she is. I'm still not totally convinced that she has started to face the reality of what she is doing yet. 

Any updates on your sitch yet?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I'm still not totally convinced that she has started to face the reality of what she is doing yet.


Oh that reality won't come for a while and the pace at which it comes depends a lot on how YOU behave. The faster you get yourself a life and start living like an independent, single man who has his sh** together, the faster your wife will *need to* reevaluate her decision.



> Any updates on your sitch yet?


You bet. Read my thread. See where you're headed. Very soon I promise.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Argh, currently being tortured by non stop love songs as they try and fix a problem with the plane. It's horrible. Feeling very sad as I relive all our holidays and wonder if there will be any more in future. W will be at home whilst I'm away so will be faced with real life instead of the fantasy land she's been in thanks to her families holiday home. I bet she'll probably not be able to stay through guilt anyway. Quite pleased that I tidied it now though. I'm sure she'll be expecting it to be a dump!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Argh, currently being tortured by non stop love songs as they try and fix a problem with the plane. It's horrible. Feeling very sad as I relive all our holidays and wonder if there will be any more in future. W will be at home whilst I'm away so will be faced with real life instead of the fantasy land she's been in thanks to her families holiday home. I bet she'll probably not be able to stay through guilt anyway. Quite pleased that I tidied it now though. I'm sure she'll be expecting it to be a dump!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Continued focus on her and things you cannot control:


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Well, I was right, she didn't stay. She texted me today. Made a mistake and texted her about the great time I was having and how I missed her even so. No reply. Then sent another a couple of days later to tell her I'd moved something in the house and she got back and told me she's staying with friends. 
I'm in such an odd place right now. I've had a great holiday, met so many people and the world is looking like a much better place. Was she the one who stopped me seeing that before? 
my self esteem is shot though and it scares me I have so little confidence right now. Its always been there but my wife propped me up. I know I can make it alone now but it really worries me that the only way I can do this is by losing the most precious thing in my life. I still haven't let go yet and don't know if I can. There are so many great memories
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> Was she the one who stopped me seeing that before?


No. You did.



> it really worries me that the only way I can do this is by losing the most precious thing in my life.


The most precious thing in your life is you.



> There are so many great memories


They will always be there.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> No. You did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks synth. Right now I wish those memories weren't! I think one of the things which is hurting the most is that she lost faith in me and I can't blame her. I had stalled in my life and thought by supporting her I was doing my job in the M. All that achieved was to force us apart. She may have some major issues but she's facing them now. I just wish I didn't want to talk to her so much. There is a pattern starting, if I offer help she talks but is very cool. If I'm NC she's absent. I hate both!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So just got back from the airport and there is loads of her stuff here! Keys, DVDs, sandals left in front of the TV things like that. Spoke to the neighbours and apparently her and her parents stayed last weekend. She stayed on monday but then hasn't been back. 

She even started the milk deliveries again! 

Tried to ring to find out the score but straight to voicemail.

:scratchhead:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Stay @50,000 feet brother.

I see a crash in your future.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I have no idea how to deal with this. Spoke to W on phone. W is treating me me like an old boyfriend. Friendly but nothing extra. Chats about our situation like it means nothing. Help?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I have no idea how to deal with this. Spoke to W on phone. W is treating me me like an old boyfriend. Friendly but nothing extra. Chats about our situation like it means nothing. Help?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never want to say I told you so.

Stay @50,000 dammit!


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I never want to say I told you so.
> 
> Stay @50,000
> 
> ...


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Oh, you were talking about me crashing, not her! I certainly feel like I'm losing it right now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Oh, you were talking about me crashing, not her! I certainly feel like I'm losing it right now
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hang in there mab. Keep posting.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab I feel your pain man. I do.

I promise if you keep yourself detached and occupied with other females (not at a sexual level) you will heal very quickly.

It may sound counter-intuitive, but it's not. Your wife will only change her approach when you do.

Let her go. Keep repeating to yourself and believing that you can do better than her and it's true YOU CAN DO BETTER.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I may be being optimistic here but I think I may have just penetrated the fog briefly. She came over to collect the stuff she had left behind and we had a long chat about the dynamics of our marriage. She was very negative, she didn't miss me, didn't want anyones help, didn't want to spend time with me because of all the attached strings, didn't want to date me. If we reconcile we'll just go back to before. She hates our home. I didn't get drawn in and calmly avoided all the darts she was slinging. Long story short eventually we ended up talking about what she had been up to in the last few weeks and she started to lighten up and enjoying herself. Then she gave me a lift to collect my car which I left at a friends house last night and we were getting on really well. We kept chatting for a while when we got there and then I decided to leave. I could see she was conflicted about whether to kiss me goodbye so I didn't push it and told her to ring me. She replied she'd come round soon and we could talk more then - that's when she is collected furniture for her new place. Overall, I think it went well and I showed her there was more to me now than when she left. I guess there will be a big backlash next time around.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I texted her to say thanks for the lift and got no reply. Guess the backlash has started. 
She was looking damn hot today too. A conversation we had about our sex life has had me in a right state all day since

Guess it would be a bad idea to tell her that though, although it is tempting for some bizarre reason!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I texted her to say thanks for the lift and got no reply. Guess the backlash has started.
> She was looking damn hot today too. A conversation we had about our sex life has had me in a right state all day since
> 
> Guess it would be a bad idea to tell her that though, although it is tempting for some bizarre reason!


Here's a look at your future if you do:


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So, didn't send any more texts and spent some time reflecting on yesterday. To say I am worried would be an understatement. She seems to be so confused, but overwhelmingly negative, that I'm concerned she might start the D ball rolling just to try and get some 'clarity'.

I'm all over the place, feels like my head may explode! On the one hand I really enjoyed spending time with her, on the other I'm having to work really hard to stay out of panic mode. I was really bored last night too. After having had so much fun in Canada being in our house was too quiet. I'm also not sure of just how friendly to be. There's a large portion of me that wants to go into pursuit mode after all whenever we're together I have a great time. Plus it's sort of exciting, like starting to date someone new. There's also a large portion of me that feels I should go NC again as I'm certain the backlash will be horrible. I'm so full of doubt that my M can be salvaged as well. It's not just her who's changed after all.
I'm also second guessing myself as to whether I should have tried to kiss her goodbye. Would she, wouldn't she? Was she waiting for me to make the move? I feel like a teenager again!

This is definitely harder than anything I've ever done before.
For all of you who are going through this you have my undying respect!
Got MC this afternoon, I'm sure she's going to be negative about everything too.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

MC made me realise that yesterdays conversation was just more of the same. Negativity on her behalf followed by a nice conversation. All I can do right now is hope that she can see that my responses to her issues are changing as I learn more about myself and how to be a better H. The TM I sent was always going to get ignored as it was an invitation to banter and I probably shouldn't have sent it.

Feeling pretty meh right now. I'm reaching the stage where I'm tired of the whole thing. All the stress is starting to wear me down. It's getting hard to keep plastering a happy face on when my W seems so self absorbed and uninterested in us. I keep getting told to focus on me but right now I'm afraid the jet lag and boredom are getting me down. I think I've run out of steam!

Have been trying to think what to do for my birthday (aug 14th). Was thinking about organising a wine tasting but am seriously concerned no one will come!


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> MC made me realise that yesterdays conversation was just more of the same. Negativity on her behalf followed by a nice conversation. All I can do right now is hope that she can see that my responses to her issues are changing as I learn more about myself and how to be a better H. The TM I sent was always going to get ignored as it was an invitation to banter and I probably shouldn't have sent it.
> 
> Feeling pretty meh right now. I'm reaching the stage where I'm tired of the whole thing. All the stress is starting to wear me down. It's getting hard to keep plastering a happy face on when my W seems so self absorbed and uninterested in us. I keep getting told to focus on me but right now I'm afraid the jet lag and boredom are getting me down. I think I've run out of steam!
> 
> Have been trying to think what to do for my birthday (aug 14th). Was thinking about organising a wine tasting but am seriously concerned no one will come!


 New day, new thoughts. Went to a blues night last night and really enjoyed it. Was chatting to the band and had a great time. Got home and immediately thought about asking W to a gig on Friday. Now am having second thoughts. Do her recent actions make her deserving of my pursuit? Sure I miss her but I believe i deserve more than grudging contact. So confused...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> New day, new thoughts. Went to a blues night last night and really enjoyed it. Was chatting to the band and had a great time. Got home and immediately thought about asking W to a gig on Friday. _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1,

You need to be slapped around for at least 1 hour.

WTF man? Can't you see how low of a value you're assigning yourself? Haven't you noticed the potential that lies in breaking free from your marriage? Don't you know by now that pursuing your wife will get you nowhere?

Start moving on man. That's your only hope. You have to get yourself to a stage where your wife becomes another woman among many. Your memories with her are not going anywhere. She has the same memories. What's your plan? To live in those memories forever?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Maybe that's the problem. I don't want to break free. My wife was there for me when dad died. She made me feel special and I want it back. I'm working on my issues but I married for life. Better or worse, I said and I meant. Yes she has issues too but she's still my wife and I still love her no matter what. Until she signs riser divorce papers which she won't do anything about I'm staying in. I am trying to move on but I won't give up. Not yet...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You're determined to remain as unattractive as possible.

That's certainly your right.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

mab1 said:


> She made me feel special and I want it back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless you can time travel, no matter how much you want it, you can't get it back. Not the way it was.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

You have decided to fail. Not very smart.

I don't find it strange. I was in the same boat. When I decided to go against my stubborn beliefs I started winning. You should try it. 

Let her go. You have no other choice. You will realize this in time.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You're determined to remain as unattractive as possible.
> 
> That's certainly your right.


Is commitment that bad?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Is commitment that bad?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Commitment and clingy behavior are not the same thing.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

well if your intent was to get me pissed then it definitely worked. I am so angry at her but it serves no purpose. I haven't said any if this to her. That's why its all on here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> well if your intent was to get me pissed then it definitely worked. I am so angry at her but it serves no purpose. I haven't said any if this to her. That's why its all on here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yet, you still talk about inviting her with you.

That's why you got the lumber.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Ignoring her hasn't worked, placating her hasn't worked. I partied in canada and that just brought me more crap. I don't have people to party with here so I've been going it alone which sucks. I thought maybe having fun with her might break the deadlock. I'm miserable and angry and alone. At the risk of sounding like a whiny ***** I don't know what else to do. If I divorce her I'm homeless, miserable, angry and alone so I'm trying to make the best of it whilst I still think there's hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Ignoring her hasn't worked, placating her hasn't worked. I partied in canada and that just brought me more crap. I don't have people to party with here so I've been going it alone which sucks. I thought maybe having fun with her might break the deadlock. I'm miserable and angry and alone. At the risk of sounding like a whiny ***** I don't know what else to do. If I divorce her I'm homeless, miserable, angry and alone so I'm trying to make the best of it whilst I still think there's hope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you a churchgoer?

Do you have interests where you could volunteer?

It's impossible for me to believe they only way you can have a satisfying full life is to hang on her every word.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I've tried all that and more. I just feel crap after because I know I'm doing it as a substitute for what I really want. Golfing, sailing, volunteering, going to the gym, going to gigs, dancing, partying, all of it. The only thing I haven't tried is dating and I'm not ready for that yet. My MC thinks I'm a superhero.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I've tried all that and more. I just feel crap after because I know I'm doing it as a substitute for what I really want. Golfing, sailing, volunteering, going to the gym, going to gigs, dancing, partying, all of it. The only thing I haven't tried is dating and I'm not ready for that yet. My MC thinks I'm a superhero.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because you haven't dated?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

No, cause I've been doing so much stuff whilst dealing with my W's crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> No, cause I've been doing so much stuff whilst dealing with my W's crap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You do realize what continuing to take her crap means (to her)?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Yeah, that she's in control. But right now I don't feel I've got any cards in my hand and I'm too short stacked to bluff. The gig idea was me going all in on a small pair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I don't feel I've got any cards in my hand


Oh get the f*** out of here man. What do you mean you have no cards in your hand?

You've got a heart that pumps, a penis that gets hard, a pair of eyes that see and lungs that breath. What the hell else do you need?

Go out there and open up to the world. It's got a lot to offer. Much more than what your confused loser of a wife has ever offered you. 

You're so codependent, it's taken away your sanity. Fix it.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Hmm, well I guess I deserved a kicking!
I don't want to be single but it's not like I have a choice in the matter. Quite why this is happening I have no clue. Maybe she wants other guys (which sickens me) and is too guilty to do it. Maybe she is a headcase but I've tried being the understanding, supportive guy and I feel crap. Maybe it's time to be a little selfish here...


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> Maybe it's time to be a little selfish here...


Maybe?!!


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

You have got to stop feeling like you need her. It's no good for you. Its untrue and works against you. People like feeling wanted and desired, but feeling needed is a lot like feeling used and trapped at once. You need to focus on you for a while. Being a better you means having a better chance with either her or someone else.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

moxy said:


> You have got to stop feeling like you need her. It's no good for you. Its untrue and works against you. People like feeling wanted and desired, but feeling needed is a lot like feeling used and trapped at once. You need to focus on you for a while. Being a better you means having a better chance with either her or someone else.


I think I've reached the stage where I don't need her. I've reached a stage now where I'm questioning myself constantly. What did I do wrong? Could I have done better? Where can I improve? I've started to think there may always have been a problem. It took her a year to change her name when we got married for example. Right now if she rang to ask me out what would we talk about? I do hate the fact that she seems happier without me. Its is really hurting my self esteem. Am I that bad a guy? I'm not sure what to do about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Are you trying to "prove" you're not a bad guy?

Is that what you're telling us?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Are you trying to "prove" you're not a bad guy?
> 
> Is that what you're telling us?


No, I know I'm not a bad guy. I don't need to prove that to anyone. What I do to need to do is IMprove so as not to be the whiny guy of two days ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

FFS get those 2x4s out again. Just found a card from her in my bedside table from last year. All my love now and always it said. Waterworks ensued...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Let them ensue. That's okay.

Just remember: *SHE LEFT YOU*

You are worth more than that. You deserve a better lover. If "All her love now and always" is the hell she has put you in, then f*** it, you don't need it.

mab1, let her go. There are options. So many of them. Why not discover at least some of them before blindly following this path of self-destruction?

Wake the f*** up.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> FFS get those 2x4s out again. Just found a card from her in my bedside table from last year. All my love now and always it said. Waterworks ensued...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Santa (May 31, 2012)

I want Syn to be my personal mental trainer going thru my **** right now! His post make me feel like "hell yeah F her!!" lol


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

mab1 said:


> It took her a year to change her name when we got married for example.


What does changing a name on a piece of paper have to do with happiness? Plenty of people take their partners surnames right away, some never do, but that has absolutely nothing to do with how well you two work as a couple or as partners. 



mab1 said:


> I do hate the fact that she seems happier without me. Its is really hurting my self esteem. Am I that bad a guy? I'm not sure what to do about it.


Why is it a bad thing that she is happier without you. It doesn't mean you're a bad guy, it just means she wasn't the right match or fit or partner for you. If she was better suited to you as a partner, you would not be in this situation.

You're feeling a little sorry for yourself here. That's to be expected and that's not a big deal -- we all go through it sometimes -- but, try to remember that neither your worth nor your self worth are tied up in her connection to you. You're allowing a lot of things to overlap here in your idea of your own value. You don't need her in order to be awesome. You can be awesome all on your own. Once you get some distance and objectivity and can see the relationship as something different from yourself, you will be able to deal with this better.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Saturday night, I've got a cold, I'm tired and I'm very bored. Spent all day working in the garden and the house. Had to ring W to find something which I knew we had but couldn't find. It was sold out in all the stores round here. She didn't answer, so I left a voicemail. She rang back immediately and left an answerphone message where she sounded miserable. She knew where it was though. Couple of texts back and forth, all very upbeat, and whilst previously I'd be agonising about this right now I'm just confused and not really that bothered. 
Bit worried about her taking stuff on tuesday. She hasn't told me when so don't know if I should take the day off or not. 
I have no idea what to expect in the next few weeks anymore...


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Oh for Petes sake, this is getting ridiculous. I rang as she asked to tell her how much the work cost on the house. I'm friendly and jokey as I would be with any friend and I get accused of being pushy. Trying to show her I've changed but actually I haven't. We're getting on fine and then she starts on me. I'm asking nothing that could be considered unreasonable considering she's taking stuff out of the house next week. I think the 
only thing I said which could be considered even slightly wrong was whether we would speak regularly or not? Then she tells me she doesn't know and she'll think about it in two weeks. I didn't push anything. It's like she's put her brain on hold. I'm being penalised for being nice now. Apparently, it's weird because she left and I'm being friendly. I can't do anything right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Do you enjoy torturing yourself mab?



> I'm being penalised for being nice now.


This is the story of your life. Why are you in such deep denial?

NICE means *No Good Deed Will Go Unpunished*


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Quick update:
Since conversation with wife, she's been to collect stuff for her new house which is unfurnished. She left a note, I TM'd thanks for note and she replied later with an apology for flipping out on me. No contact since but she is supposed to be coming round with mummy and daddy for furniture this weekend. Not sure if I can be civil to her parents as they have had a massive role in our sitch. The umbilical cord was never cut. 
As for me, went to a music festival this weekend. Had a great time but was really sad when it finished. It's almost like if I'm busy I'm fine but I can't stay busy ALL the time! Like today, I am really, really tired. Can't be bothered with W's crap, but am really bored at work and know I will be at home too...

My birthday tomorrow not sure what I'm going to do if anything. It's really quiet here as everyone is on holiday...


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So, W sent birthday card which made me smile, I thought I wasn't going to get one from her. "Happy Birthday, hope you have a good day. Will speak to you later".
Not sure what I feel about it. How to respond? Encouraged? Apathy? V confused.

Currently reading a great book called The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking by Oliver Burkeman.

It discusses how the cult of optimism proposed by motivational speakers and the like is actually self defeating and that the only way to find happiness is by embracing failure, pessimism, insecurity and uncertainty then facing and accepting them as uncontrollables. After having done that only then is it possible to move forward. There's all sorts of evidence based studies, philosophy, religion in it. It's fits very nicely with the "You're already dead" speech from band of brothers and the Stockdale Paradox. I'm finding it fascinating so far although it does make my brain hurt a bit! I'm only about a 1/4 through but I recommend it so far.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Update...wife arrived with mummy and Daddy. Laughing, joking with me. Took furniture. MIL in tears, wife cried, said sorry, hug then left. Came back for coat 1 hour later. Said house looks better already, I'd cleaned up books on floor and put some shelves up, said enjoy the game (on TV) then left. Devastated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Update...wife arrived with mummy and Daddy. Laughing, joking with me. Took furniture. MIL in tears, wife cried, said sorry, hug then left. Came back for coat 1 hour later. Said house looks better already, I'd cleaned up books on floor and put some shelves up, said enjoy the game (on TV) then left. Devastated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Want me to get the lumber?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

No, don't need it. I self dosed on Saturday night/Sunday morning! So what should I expect next on the rollercoaster?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> No, don't need it. I self dosed on Saturday night/Sunday morning! So what should I expect next on the rollercoaster?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you at 50,000 feet observing?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> No, don't need it. I self dosed on Saturday night/Sunday morning! So what should I expect next on the rollercoaster?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should expect to get tired of the way you feel. Once that happens, make sure you don't just sit on your ass. Get out and have lots of 'single' fun. Forget about your wife and what she's doing. She's fine. You'll cross paths with her in the future again. Perhaps many many times. Perhaps even as a married couple again. It doesn't matter. What matters is how you spend your time *today*.

If you continue this pity party, you'll end up being the most unattractive, depressed, needy guy imaginable. If you get your sh1t together and change your prospects, you'll end up feeling so much better about your life, ultimately attracting females that your wife will have to fiercely compete against just to get to talk to you, let alone being your partner.

How many times have you read the article in my signature by now? If you haven't read it, you deserve a whole forest of lumber.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic said:


> You should expect to get tired of the way you feel. Once that happens, make sure you don't just sit on your ass. Get out and have lots of 'single' fun. Forget about your wife and what she's doing. She's fine. You'll cross paths with her in the future again. Perhaps many many times. Perhaps even as a married couple again. It doesn't matter. What matters is how you spend your time *today*.
> 
> If you continue this pity party, you'll end up being the most unattractive, depressed, needy guy imaginable. If you get your sh1t together and change your prospects, you'll end up feeling so much better about your life, ultimately attracting females that your wife will have to fiercely compete against just to get to talk to you, let alone being your partner.
> 
> How many times have you read the article in my signature by now? If you haven't read it, you deserve a whole forest of lumber.


mab,

Go ahead and confess to not reading it.

I'm getting rusty.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I've read it 3 times, honest! And believe me I've been partying  Am off on a singles sailing weekend on friday too. Haven't had any desire to contact W since Friday and can't see that changing anytime soon. Her behavior is just bizarre!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> I've read it 3 times, honest! And believe me I've been partying  Am off on a singles sailing weekend on friday too. Haven't had any desire to contact W since Friday and can't see that changing anytime soon. Her behavior is just bizarre!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh you call this bizarre! Wait till she starts changing her stories and feeling different about her decision. Wait till she starts confusing the black and white paint jars. One day, she will paint you black, then the next day you become her idol. DO NOT BE PHASED by any of it. None of it matters. Continue partying and learning.

Detach until she begs you to not. That's how this game should be played if you want to retain your sanity and dignity.

*DETACH UNTIL SHE BEGS YOU TO NOT*.

It works. Ask those who've done it.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

What an amazing weekend. Went on a singles sailing break which was great fun on its own but I also got rather friendly with an absolutely stunning girl. Felt zero guilt and 100% fantastic. Going to go for dinner with her on Friday. Might just be a holiday romance type thing but let's see what happens 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!

mab1 makes his first major breakthrough 

This is what you should be doing with your time these days: living a fun life without guilt.

When you are not doing that, you should be working on yourself by reading, thinking and attending counseling. 

btw, if things don't work out with the stunning girl, send her Lifescript's way. Bros before hoes man.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So the date was a huge success!! Well, that is if you count back to a hotel and two hours sleep as success that is ;-) Although I do have to say I'm a bit confused about this whole dating thing, it's been a long time. Call, don't call etc. It's all very complicated. Am constantly worried about messing it up! I've been totally honest with her though so she knows my sitch.
Just been to a family do (my brother and his family are emigrating to Australia tomorrow) where everyone was asking how it was going with W. I really didn't know what to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I really didn't know what to say.


"Things are going well. We are separated and being friendly" (with a big smile)


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So today is our anniversary. Wife rang and I thought maybe she is human after all. Oh no, she was just getting me to check whether I'd paid for the home and contents insurance on my credit card or not! I could tell she wanted to talk more but I kept it strictly business. It did feel quite strange not to say happy anniversary, but it's not like we have a M on anything but paper anymore and that was her choice. Bring on Friday when I'm off to see the new girl on the scene


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

She called to hear you say "Happy anniversary".

That was the only reason for her call.

Glad you didn't reward her.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So, she just left an answerphone message starting with the insurance and then burst into tears because of the day. Wondered if I'd remembered and hoped I was ok whilst sobbing down the phone. Got to admit I felt a bit bad at that point but I don't really feel the need to make her feel better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> So, she just left an answerphone message starting with the insurance and then burst into tears because of the day. Wondered if I'd remembered and hoped I was ok whilst sobbing down the phone. Got to admit I felt a bit bad at that point but I don't really feel the need to make her feel better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And DO NOT call back.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Was thinking of a TM "thanks for sorting insurance, yes I did remember the day, I'm fine" or should I just ignore her completely?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Was thinking of a TM "thanks for sorting insurance, yes I did remember the day, I'm fine" or should I just ignore her completely?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ignore it 100% - completely.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks Conrad. Why do you say ignore it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Thanks Conrad. Why do you say ignore it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What happens if you answer?

Think about the dynamic.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

That's why I was thinking about the TM. My thinking was that it acknowledges the fact she had done something for me whilst not making her feel that she can ring me to make her feel better whenever she's down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Ignore it. You don't want to get sucked back into the cycle and nothing much has changed on her end to warrant that. And you don't want to give her false hope; as you're dating other women now, the door between you and ex-wife should stay closed.

Don't send any follow-up texts, either. Write her a letter and then don't send it, if you must say something.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> That's why I was thinking about the TM. My thinking was that it acknowledges the fact she had done something for me whilst not making her feel that she can ring me to make her feel better whenever she's down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope... quit overthinking.

You are FINALLY getting a reaction from her. Remember, you told us it was impossible.

Give it some room and see where it goes.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I was just starting to enjoy not getting any reaction, it all gets complicated for me now!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I was just starting to enjoy not getting any reaction, it all gets complicated for me now!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This doesn't validate you?

Remember, you told me how many times she just "doesn't care?"

CORRECTION...

She acts as if she "doesn't care" until "Plan A" is firmly in place.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I see what you're saying. It's all seems to be happening at once though. New girl who I really like, wife showing some sort of emotion for the first time in months. I wasn't expecting this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> I see what you're saying. It's all seems to be happening at once though. New girl who I really like, wife showing some sort of emotion for the first time in months. I wasn't expecting this!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In other words, she's not being reassured that she can experiment and dabble and when she's done, good old mab1 will be waiting for her "discovery".

Loss tends to focus the mind.

You do realize how much less you've reached out since you met the new girl, correct?

So does she.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> I see what you're saying. It's all seems to be happening at once though. New girl who I really like, wife showing some sort of emotion for the first time in months. I wasn't expecting this!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know you weren't expecting this  we were!

The fog of codependency and betrayal is one hell of a mindf***. You're still in it, but slowly getting out. Don't stop or backtrack. Stay the course.

Wait till she comes crying and telling you how much she regrets losing you. You might think it's impossible right now, but it's bound to happen in the future.

Don't wait for it. It's not worth the wait (unless it happens very fast). By then, you'll have realized that the options are endless and sky is the limit. 

Btw, don't go all Romeo on the new girl even if she's an angel sent just for you. You're not ready for any kind of commitment. Just enjoy the moments. Nothing more, nothing less (if it ain't enjoyable, bail fast)


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Yeah, I am a bit concerned about the codependent, rebound thing. It's all been fun so far though so I'm going to keep enjoying it for now. I just have to keep reminding myself not to sabotage things. I got into a similar situation at uni, finished with fun girl to go back to old girl. It all went horribly wrong and it messed me up for ages. I'm determined not to do the same this time round.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Just as I thought I was improving too. On Saturday I was sat in a coffee shop in London with a beautiful girl, I thought my marriage was done and I was moving forward. One message with a bit of crying and I'm starting to question it all. Do I want wife back? Not in her current state. Do I want more with new girl? Too early to say, it is fun though. Should I even be dating whilst separated? It feels good at the time but I also feel guilt. I don't want to be the bad guy which I seem to be doing. At some point I will have to tell W about the last couple of weekends and that makes me feel awful. Do I feel crap because I can't decide what I want? Absolutely, I've never been any good at this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Just as I thought I was improving too. On Saturday I was sat in a coffee shop in London with a beautiful girl, I thought my marriage was done and I was moving forward. One message with a bit of crying and I'm starting to question it all. Do I want wife back? Not in her current state. Do I want more with new girl? Too early to say, it is fun though. Should I even be dating whilst separated? It feels good at the time but I also feel guilt. I don't want to be the bad guy which I seem to be doing. At some point I will have to tell W about the last couple of weekends and that makes me feel awful. Do I feel crap because I can't decide what I want? Absolutely, I've never been any good at this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In other words, she's not being reassured that she can experiment and dabble and when she's done, good old mab1 will be waiting for her "discovery".

Loss tends to focus the mind.

You do realize how much less you've reached out since you met the new girl, correct?

So does she.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

And now I'm getting deja vu ;-) Thanks Conrad. Message received and cycling acknowledged! Guess I'm getting freaked out by the fact that I have to start taking responsibility for my own actions which I've never done well. Hence why I stick in victim mode as a default. It is a tough one to crack though. Let's see what today brings...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> And now I'm getting deja vu ;-) Thanks Conrad. Message received and cycling acknowledged! Guess I'm getting freaked out by the fact that I have to start taking responsibility for my own actions which I've never done well. Hence why I stick in victim mode as a default. It is a tough one to crack though. Let's see what today brings...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing positive gets accomplished in victim mode.

Talk about it in counseling.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1,

In my "10 commandments", the 10th step is:

*10. Start living an 'overly' fun life without feeling any guilt. This is the hardest task ahead. It's important to wash the guilt out of yourself once you have realized where it originates from via all the reading and counseling you've done.
* 
When you are a codependent "nice-guy" who often circulates in the victim triangle, there's quite a strong force of instinctual guilt that is used to both question and also justify your "good times". Highly complex dynamic.

It's hard to tell why a self-aware adult would constantly seek justification for having a good time (as if it's a sin to be laughing), but I've noticed many men, including myself, who have this mentality. It doesn't go away easily. I still find myself affected by it often.

Always remember: The guilt and fear are unnecessary and wrong. They might be present, but they're not justified. It doesn't matter what you've done in the past. As a living organism of TODAY, you are entitled to be functioning at optimum levels. You MUST feel entitled to love yourself more than others. Fight the doubts.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

synthetic said:


> mab1,
> 
> In my "10 commandments", the 10th step is:
> 
> ...


Something I need to remember.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> mab1,
> 
> In my "10 commandments", the 10th step is:
> 
> ...


I definitely recognise that! I spoke to new girl last night and she was actually *happy* to hear from me. It felt so strange to actually think someone wants me to ring them after all the crap with W! Then the fear and doubt kicks in - this is all too soon, there has to be a downside to all this etc etc...I'm fighting it hard but it's still there


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Update:
Went over to see new girl on Friday night. Had a great evening and then we went to a big concert on Saturday and had an even better evening. It's all starting to get a little scary now! I really hope this isn't a rebound thing. All my friends and family are really happy for me and my MC thinks it's great too. 

Then today I had a bit of a worrying thought. She's coming over here with her friends (who I met on Saturday and got on well with) next weekend in a visit that was planned before we met. Originally I assumed that they'd all stay at mine after a bit of partying in the evening but the friends are heading home on the day. So she's going to be staying in our marital home (that myself and W completely renovated together) and it's probably going to be really strange for her. Even worse is that I could possibly bump into W in the city with new girl which would be incredibly awkward. 
Is it time to tell W about new girl? Am I worrying over nothing? I honestly can't see a future for me and W any more and only haven't started the D yet due to finances but it's all starting to get a bit concerning now. I've been totally honest about my sitch with new girl but W has absolutely no idea what's going on. It's all a bit confusing and is starting to interfere with my having fun!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Don't bring the girl home. It will set you back a lot in the "guilt" department. 

What's going to happen is, when your wife gains her sanity back and questions her decision to leave, you will think back on your date with the "new girl" and how you brought her to your marital home. This will prompt you to feel guilty and give your wife extra leverage in recreating the 'nice guy' she always expected from you.

Don't bring her home. Take the party elsewhere. You're in no position to handle the guilt right now.

As for your wife, you don't talk about anything you haven't been specifically asked about. Even then, you can choose to remain silent.

Relocate the party.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Synthetic is 100% right.

Re-locate the party.

I wouldn't say a word to your wife. Someone will tell her. Trust me.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Relocating maybe kind of difficult. I only have one house! New girl lives 60 miles away and we'll have been out drinking in the evening. It would be seriously awkward to say she can't come back especially after the last couple of weekends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Relocating maybe kind of difficult. I only have one house! New girl lives 60 miles away and we'll have been out drinking in the evening. It would be seriously awkward to say she can't come back especially after the last couple of weekends.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Rental rooms available?


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Rental rooms available?


Possibly, but wouldn't that be pretty tough to explain? She knows my W has left and if I don't invite her back it all looks a bit weird
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Possibly, but wouldn't that be pretty tough to explain? She knows my W has left and if I don't invite her back it all looks a bit weird
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Already being a 'nice guy' with her ha? 

Dude, who gives a sh1t what she thinks. You're not okay with having girls at home. DONE!

If you want to feel better, just tell her you intend to leave that house very soon and prefer to have no memories of your 'new life' in it.

BE A MAN.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm not feeling guilty about it more concerned new girl will be weirded out which will impinge on my future manly activities 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> I'm not feeling guilty about it more concerned new girl will be weirded out which will impinge on my future manly activities
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Be careful with those 'manly' activities a bit. Sex ain't fun when mixed with guilt and trust me you will feel guilt.

It's time to learn to be 110% honest with everyone. If you're feeling concerned about bringing her home, you should not hide it. Hiding true feelings is what you're trying to unlearn. Why reignite a new friendship based on the same dynamic?

Tell her the truth. If she doesn't like it, move on to the next girl.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So new girl came over, had a great weekend again. It's now starting to reach scary stage because it's still very much honeymoon stage but I'm consistently questioning my readiness, her interest, trust issues, rebounding and my own self confidence. I have to keep trying though. If it scares you then do it, right? No contact with W for two weeks. I still haven't checked into insurance or anything like that. I know I should deal with it but I just can't be bothered to talk to her. It's all getting a bit surreal now. I certainly don't feel married anymore and I wouldn't take her back now. The trust is gone. I just can't bring myself to start the D papers as then I have to move house etc. It's getting to be a bit ridiculous now though. I still don't know where she lives and she now has a mountain of mail. Should I still stay dark?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Yes.

You can always file when you're ready to do it.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Notice how the new distraction in your life has made your detachment so much easier? It's the upside of a rebound. The downsides are also quite sh1tty if you're not careful. Don't get attached, and please remain completely honest.

In any case, your wife is losing you (already lost you), and that's exactly what the consequence of her action should be. When she backtracks (and she will), remember, this was HER wish, not yours.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

It really would help if I didn't like the new girl so much. She's loads of fun, really attractive and seems really into me. I just have to keep reminding myself to play it cool, we're not married and this is very early days yet. This dating stuff is hard work! Call, don't call, think of conversation starters etc etc. My W and I met at work, and prior GF's were all girls had close contact with and so I've never had to do all this. I feel like I should know what I'm doing but I just have no idea!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

mab1 said:


> It really would help if I didn't like the new girl so much. She's loads of fun, really attractive and seems really into me. I just have to keep reminding myself to play it cool, we're not married and this is very early days yet. This dating stuff is hard work! Call, don't call, think of conversation starters etc etc. My W and I met at work, and prior GF's were all girls had close contact with and so I've never had to do all this. I feel like I should know what I'm doing but I just have no idea!


I see butterflies all over your post 

Be yourself. She's not the last girl on earth. Don't start spending emotions that you don't have. You're not obligated. 

Also keep in mind that the chances of your relationship with her lasting more than a few months are slim to none. Don't become a knight in shining armor again.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Nebuchadnezzar,

Might be time for Commandment #11

REBOUND RELATIONSHIPS ARE USEFUL AS DISTRACTIONS ONLY.


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## 36Separated (Aug 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> mab1,
> 
> Before you start judging my post, I want you to know that your life almost mirrors mine to a large degree and the feelings you're going through are very familiar and fresh in my mind. Don't ever think your case is unique and 'no one understands'. I made that mistake and am paying for it dearly.
> 
> ...



Superb - this is just what i needed to hear - im in a very similar situ


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## 36Separated (Aug 5, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Ok now that I have given you that list, there's something I want to tell you:
> 
> Your wife no longer feels she should limit her options by staying committed to you. This is a very common occurrence among career women these days and is highly prevalent in the western world. Use your imagination and connect some dots to understand where it gets its roots from (hint: culture, media).
> 
> ...


Again spot on, my wife left me 8 years ago the first time, since then i didnt trust her and yes she has done it again


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

New girls gone quiet after an awkward phone call on Wednesday. Lot of texts back and forth after though so think it's ok. Off to theatre with her tomorrow. Then best friend got fired, cue deep and meaningfuls and MlC chat. Now W had just texted asking to meet for coffee. Argh, just as I was starting to enjoy myself. It's witchcraft, I'm certain!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Don't go to the coffee chat. Learn to not do things she wants you to do.

Make her feel rejected. That's right. REJECTED. She asked for this.

If she asks again next week, then agree to go. Make her work.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

So coffee chat never happened as I was over with new girl. Didn't tell wife where I was, just said I was away. Had a great night again. I think it may be getting to crunch time with W. She came round to collect some stuff whilst I was away (which we'd agreed was ok) and despite my leaving a note politely asking for a forwarding address she still didn't give me it. Just bizarre. I think I'm pretty much set on D now. I refuse to be treated like this although financially I'm way better off not doing it. I'm just worried that in six months time everything is going to come crashing in on me all at once. It's all a bit scary if I'm honest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> It's all a bit scary if I'm honest.


It's the unknown. New turf, new game, new players. It has to be scary, otherwise, you'd feel bored.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

It's certainly not boring! Still finding it all very exciting with new girl but not sure I can keep the pace up. I mean where am I going to find a another girl who when asked about seeing Crazy Horse London - Forever Crazy - Homepage says yep, that sounds cool. It's costing a fortune and I have to be realistic and think it probably isn't going to last and being broke isn't fun! Been there, done that, didn't like it! I really don't want to think negatively right now but reality will have to break through some time. I'm just having so much fun right now I don't want to jinx it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Have your fun without any expectations. Your relationship with her has a low chance of surviving. Don't get attached


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic said:


> Have your fun without any expectations. Your relationship with her has a low chance of surviving. Don't get attached


This reminds me of OVS.

The fabulous new mab1 has gone from being the most depressed guy here to cloud nine.

I hope he doesn't get altitude sickness.


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## mab1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Didn't OVS have all sorts of adultery to deal with? I've had none of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

mab1 said:


> Didn't OVS have all sorts of adultery to deal with? I've had none of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just speaking of how down both of you were.

Other than Synthetic's thread, I used to page back in yours and OVS' thread anytime someone needed a 2x4.


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## itsaboutme (Nov 12, 2012)

Its amazing to read these stories and to think that you are not talking about my relationship with my fiance when it comes to EA and infidelity.
I dont know where to start and dont want to bore with mindless details, but i dont know any other way to explain. 

dates 4/05-1/07

We met 8 yrs ago in our last few years of college, her 3rd or 4th year my 7th. We moved in together 6 months later, and engaged within 1.5 years. after we graduated i received a Graduate School opportunity but we had to move to midwest from the west coast. I told her that I would not be willing to do a long distance relationship and if she did not want to go then we would call of the engagement because I was not willing to try another LD relationship after a previous failed. She agree to move and we did. During this time her mother is against us living in midwest and her moms support for me and my family deteriorates, as mine did too for her. we were there for essentially 1.5yrs and i finished my masters degree. 
(during first month of the relationship i used cocaine on regular basis and she did not like it but stayed, used marijuana 24/7 for 6 months and drank on most days that end in Y. Her on the other hand is a saint. Does not use drugs at all on regular basis. She smoked marijuana 1 or 2 times while intoxicated with alcohol, she has never been a user of any sort. She hates ibuprofen. We had a 2-3 alcohol related incidences over jealousy on my part. I believe they were warranted like most EA people do. I can explain later if you want? there was 1 instance in which she did not tell me the truth about a previous relationship and she was communicating and hung out with this guy a few times as "friends". I am the jealous guy due to previous damages and it does not help matters when you are not telling the entire truth and i find out later, consequently i would question where she has been, go through her phone and act like a complete phycho) 

1/07-4/08

still not married 2 years in the relationship she becomes accidentally pregnant. I say accident but she quit taking the pill months prior so i should say careless, i was aware she was not on BC. Her initial thoughts on being pregnant was she was leaning towards and abortion, there was a lack of support from her side of the family, she had part time teaching making 20k a year i was essentially seeking a job at the time and I had to essentially talk her into having our child based on these circumstances: I was not in support of an abortion and that adoption could be considered, I gave her and our unborn child my word that i would never leave them and I would take care of them forever, I would be the best dad/husband i could be and that we were in this together, the three of us. shortly after she/we decided to keep our child i received a job offer but would require us to move to a south texas and live in a town that is on the texas/mexico border. not the most desirable place to live, with the money I was going to make she did not have to work, we purchased a brand new home in a well off neighborhood with 24 hour gated security, swimming pool, pond, play structure..... HYPERLINK "http://www.labotaranch.com" Homes for Sale in Laredo, Texas at La Bota Ranch Realty Home Sale or Purchase So off went
(during this time i used not drugs of any sort, still drank on a regular occasion and our fights stemmed from her loneliness from home and her family vs Me as i perceived it and as she perceived it ME vs her family)
4/08-6/10

Roughly 3yrs into the relationship we are still not marred. we buy a brand new 4 bedroom 2100 sq ft house, have a healthy child and live in the "horrible" border town, I liked it she hated it. During the 2 years in the ranch we had numerous friends that were in same situation as we were, stuck there because of jobs and none of us or our final destinations as families. One thing all the girls in the neighborhood shared were they were all stay at home moms. All of guys were friends and we would BBQ, spend holidays together, birthdays etc,, in my opinion our relationship was the best it was ever, we walked the neighborhood, talked, communicated well and did everything together, thats all we had. She believes i think that because i had her isolated from her friends and family and could cont4/08-rol her with money and time. I dont know, i might have?? We had fights and most of them were over her wanting to go home all the time and spend 2-3 weeks at a time with our child away from where we live. I hated being away from my child for that long and i was constantly bugging her about her whereabouts due to my lack of trust in her. I believe i was being ridiculous in not trusting her and I am very ashamed and embarrassed i did that. She was going home about every other month 2-3 weeks at a time. In my opinion her family was brain washing her because every time she came back to our border home, she grew more negative about our life there every time, spoke about how she hated there, and was more irritable every day we were there. Her dad never came to visit, mom came when our child was born and when we move back to west coast, sister came 1 time when we were there to help us move back to west coast. I believe that I was wanting to keep her away from her family during those visits because she would go for 2-3 weeks at a time and only take our child to my families house for 2-3 nights. I felt like she was trying to keep our child from my family as she was feeling i was keeping her from her family. We talked about getting counseling and never did just moved on with un resolved issues.
(still no drug use of any kind but my alcohol use is still high, on avg i say 4 days a week i drink. Our alcohol related incidences are very few and not major that i can remember, i dont get plastered every night but i do like to drink my beer My trust with her is at its peak and only carries over for the next 2 years). 

6/10-Present

I promised her that if I could get a job back in our west coast state that i would, something i never wanted to do but i would do it for my family. Roughly 6 years into relationship we are still not married and we are moving back to our home state with a new job that will allow us to live in my home town and about 2 hrs from hers. I doomed it to be trouble and was worried we would not make it. The job i was promised fell through but the company gave me a different role in the business but not the one i originally accepted. This was frustrating because it forced me to work more to earn less than the original amount i was promised. We had a hard time getting financed for a home and consequently we were living at my parents house for an entire year. I dont believe that she ever truly supported me in this theory about being screwed at my job and it did wear on me, i never told her that till i blew up later. She also promised to get a full time job when we got home and she did not. She did start working but it was not on a full time basis and money was tight. Fortunately when i was 12 I received a lump settlement of $112,000. I wanted to invest the money into something but was forced to put 50k on our house to afford the financing (something i did not want to do, wanted to stay around 25k, we joked about a prenuptial agreement and she refused so i always wiped if off as a joke) we also invested about 30k in a remodel job at the house that it had to have because the house was unlivable when we purchased it. The house itself was not really what i wanted but after a year of looking and living with my parents anything would have done. During this time as well i struggled with happiness in our relationship and I struggled with my relationship with my son while her relationship with our child flourished. I never thought about leaving, we talked about counseling and essentially did nothing just moved on with un resolved issues. 

While remodeling our house we id not agree on anything and were constantly not being able to agree on anything. We move into our new house memorial day weekend 2011. We have never been the same since. We have steadily drifted apart to form of we have not slept in the same bed in months, we dont communicate, we dont want to hang out with each other and overall we are roommates with a child. We moved into our house Memorial Day weekend 2011. I believe it is because we no longer appreciate each other and we would rather spend our time with friends on my behalf and on her part her family or a new set of friends i dont even know. 

in summer of 2012 I noticed her staying out late after her job, not every day but staying late. She said she was staying with coworkers having drinks. i never checked because i didnt want to be controlling and not trusting, I was never invited for the most part because she get off late as late as midnight and not come home till 2+am. I did not even question her. this went on 5 or 6 times during the summer. then she decided to start her masters degree late in the summer august 15th to be exact. The fall time i typically work 7 days a week due to my job. She had classes on thursday nights untill 9:40pm is what she said but she was really done at 9:20pm- she would then go to the library till between 11pm and 12pm about a six weeks into the semester i noticed she was not home yet and it was 11:57pm. I will remember that feeling the rest of my life. I called her and she answered and attempted to small talk me. I repeteadly asked her where she was and who she was with. She told me she was at the library and i didnt believe the library was still open, When i did believe her about the libary i didnt believe she was by her self. She admitted she was not by her self but would not tell me who she was with and hung up on me. What typically takes 15-20 min at midnight took her 40 minutes to get home. When she got home i freaked out. Accusations of cheating, who is he, blah blah blah, said some hurtful things. She proceeded to tell me that she was not cheating on me that she ran into a “young guy” that she knew from work. She made this guy out to be 21 and just starting at college. Not believing her i threw all of her clothes out the house, took the car keys from her, kicked her out of the house for the night and was overall down right wrong. The next day she takes off to her parents house for the weekend and left me behind thinking that I am all in the wrong and I screewed up. Well to make matters worse I find out over the next week or so that he is not a young, aquantance from work. He is about 2 years younger than her, which makes him 27, they didnt just run into each other at the library, in fact the went out to dinner the week before which she told me she was with her group from school, and she was planning on attending a halloween party that weekend which i really was not invited too and she did not look like she was wearing much to the party in the size of the tutu she brought home. There all kinds of just deleted history on our computer and no explanations for missing dates on it. I thought it would make me better if I spoke to him and I did but it was too late. he lied to me about dinner and so that makes his story not credible at all. 

Hostile Disengagement-traits she shows
This is how she is acting right now and its not her
She is cold
Sarcastic
New activities and interests
not working and there are problems
not happy
not willing to even try counseling for our relationship
not future commitmets other than child custody
disinterested on things at home
spend no time together even when i beg 
She has said that she likes this guy but nothing happend. She has yet to sit down and tell me the truth. Everything i have found out has been because i have caught her in little lies. When she says she is telling the truth she is just only half of it. I have to probe her because she say says i didnt ask... 

Emotional Cheating Traits


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

mab1 - First, I'm sorry for your loss. Your situation sounds terribly similar to what's happened with my H and myself. I'm the W who left.

Since you are a scientist, and therefore driven by data (I assume), I would like to point out that those who have been giving you advice *have not been successful in reconciling to their wives*. They also seem terribly bitter. So take what they say with an understanding of their situation in mind.

What is it that you want? This seems to be the crux of the matter and not something anyone is pointing you towards. There is discussion of the TED model, which is a good one, but what IS your goal as you move forward?

I see a lot of progress in feeling good about yourself, something that is definitely required for a healthy relationship, but I still see you trying to find that validation in others. The woman you are currently seeing, for example.

You mention trust being gone for your W. Is she seeing anyone else? Has she cheated on you? From a completely objective POV, it seems that you are the one who has broken trust.

Now, some posters will return to defend you by stating *she* left therefore she broke trust. But, it really depends why she left, doesn't it?

Were you truly open to working on your marriage while you were together? Was your emotional abuse and (I suspect) the negativity you were both dumping on each other being addressed in the marriage? Did she ask and you refuse?

Sometimes, leaving is the only way to make progress or force an epiphany. Is it possible she felt like this? Apologies if you were really trying your best in the marriage and she threw it in your face by walking anyway. But somehow, I guess not.

One thing that hasn't been raised in this thread is that long-married women don't just leave without good reason. Assuming they are sane, which your W sounds like she is.

Where is your growth, mab? All I see from your posts atm is repeating the same behaviour I suspect you exhibited in your marriage. I think if you carry on down this path you are doomed to repeat your mistakes with another woman.

I would like to recommend to you this excellent book, written by men for men, btw (no ball crushing). You might want to check it out IF you truly love your wife and want to reconcile.

The Secrets of Happily Married Men: Eight Ways to Win Your Wife's Heart Forever: Scott Haltzman, Theresa Foy DiGeronimo: 9780787994143: Amazon.com: Books


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Didn't OVS have all sorts of adultery to deal with? I've had none of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, but now your W has *your* adultery to deal with. She may have left, but you've put the nails in the coffin of your marriage.

Does the woman you've been seeing know you are not yet divorced? fyi - for many decent women, that would be a huge red flag. I certainly wouldn't entertain a man who was still married to his wife. If I found out later he was separated and hadn't disclosed this, it would make me think very poorly of him.

What kind of person enables a married man or woman to end their marriage? Think about this.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

mab1 said:


> So coffee chat never happened as I was over with new girl. Didn't tell wife where I was, just said I was away. Had a great night again. I think it may be getting to crunch time with W. She came round to collect some stuff whilst I was away (which we'd agreed was ok) and despite my leaving a note politely asking for a forwarding address she still didn't give me it. Just bizarre. I think I'm pretty much set on D now. I refuse to be treated like this although financially I'm way better off not doing it. I'm just worried that in six months time everything is going to come crashing in on me all at once. It's all a bit scary if I'm honest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to say, based on this post, you really are both better off divorced. I could explain more, but not sure you want to know the reasons.

There's no epiphany in any of your posts re: your contribution to the demise of your marriage.

Divorce (and marriage, fwiw) should be a growth, learning experience. Where is yours, mab?

Also, I assume you don't have children? You never mention them.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

sapienta,

How long did it take you to track down mab1?

Was it in the memory cache on his computer?

Or did a girlfriend tip you off that he was here?


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Conrad said:


> sapienta,
> 
> How long did it take you to track down mab1?
> 
> ...


Laugh. Out. Loud.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> Laugh. Out. Loud.


Sad part is, he was there the whole time, while she wiped her feet on him and fantasized about doing so so much better.

He was so smitten by her I dumped an entire yard's worth of 2x4's on mab1.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Sad part is, he was there the whole time, while she wiped her feet on him and fantasized about doing so so much better


I've got the perfect man for her.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

LOL. Quite the cynical lot you are here.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

sapientia said:


> LOL. Quite the cynical lot you are here.


This board has millions of posts.

This is one lonely little subforum way at the bottom.

What are the odds that someone gets a user account and their FIRST AND ONLY 4 (count 'em) FOUR posts are on a thread that has received ONE other post since September 25th?

Go sell crazy somewhere else.

We've got enough toxicity in our lives to fill a chemical plant.

Leave mab1 alone. You've abused him enough already.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> This board has millions of posts.
> 
> This is one lonely little subforum way at the bottom.
> 
> ...


and boom goes the dynamite!


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

All I have to say is, if Sapientia is his wife - she probably deserves the chance to tell her side of the story. Sounds like they've both messed up - I don't see just ONE victim here... That's just my opinion.

Wishing peace and the best for them both - whatever that may be...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

I'm not his wife. Conrad seems to not appreciate the power of google. I did a search for emotionally abusive husbands and found this place. First, I have children. Second there was a mention of someone smoking, which neither of us have done. Third, I live in Vancouver, Canada. Fourth, my H and I only separated this September. On reading the thread further, I see the OP is learning to sail. My H and I have sailed all our lives.

There are some interesting similarities, which I guess is why I felt compelled to post. But clearly there are others here for whom my posts seem to have struck a nerve.

I don't suppose the opinion of an abused wife is at all appreciated, tho (my H broke his wrist 2x punching walls, kicked doors out of frames, threatened to shoot me...). Thanks Conrad, for being so welcoming. :smthumbup:


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Go sell crazy somewhere else.


If this is how you interact with your wife, I can see why you have the problems you do.

Any other wisdom you'd enjoy sharing Conrad? Feel free to apologize for your completely wrong assumption and insults at any point. Or, is that a complaint your wife also has of you (guess).

Aren't there moderators of this forum that prevent regular posters from abusing the newbies?


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

You have no idea how many vial spouse stalk there once counterpart here.

Quite literally, last week one found his way here and started betraying the poster until she had to take the evidence to the police to get a restraining order.

I then had to request he get banned.

Then with everything and the RO, showed up at her house that night trying to her to her.

It happens a lot more than you think.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Understood. But that in no way excuses the insults and poor welcome.

I was hoping to learn some more about the mindset of my husband. Clearly, I've come to the wrong forum. The regulars here seem to have had their brains shrunk from all the damage in their lives. I hope I never, ever become that bitter.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

mab1 said:


> Then best friend got fired, cue deep and meaningfuls and MlC chat.


This one clinches it. My H doesn't have any real friends but one, and that one did not get fired (we work for the same organization). Nor does he post by mobile device. My H just recently got a cellphone, which he (according to my son) has managed to wash 2x.

So, Conrad - how about that apology? It might be good practice for interacting with your wife (or next wife, or whatever your situation is).


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

I thoroughly enjoy the poor me attitude you have about the situation with Conrad and then how you generalize the rest of the posters with such insults.

Then, you seek an apology a number of times with a short amount of posts like the man has been waiting for your return.

If you want advice, stop plaguing an old thread and start your own.

Oh wait.

Nevermind.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> I thoroughly enjoy the poor me attitude you have about the situation with Conrad and then how you generalize the rest of the posters with such insults.


Only the rest of the e-bullies who agreed with him. But you are right, my insults are no better than anyone elses, so I apologize. 

As for my posting in this thread, shall I go back and point out the numerous other posters who posted things like:

'wow, you could be *my* husband', etc. There are several. Its been a fascinating read.

Frankly, I was attacked after my rather reasonable posts, whose only fault, apparently, is that I found them on Google and dared to post an opinion of the OP that doesn't seem to agree with the various angry males who are supporting him. But none of whom, far as I can tell, who have actually managed to reconcile to their wives. Not at all hard to understand why, of course, but there is the history of my short time here. I wonder if there isn't some transference happening here. I will say again: I'm not the OPs wife, nor any of the other angry males on here (that I know at least). I hope that's clear.

Of course I don't really expect an apology from Conrad. He's not that evolved, obviously.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

UpnOver said:


> If you want advice, stop plaguing an old thread and start your own.
> 
> Oh wait.
> 
> Nevermind.


Good suggestion, except I wonder if I haven't happened on the kindergarten forum. I'll have a look around and see if there are any smarter, more mature posters here. Thanks.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm not OK with where this thread is heading...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

spun said:


> I'm not OK with where this thread is heading...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry you feel that way.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I think Sap has a right to her feelings... Sap I think you should stay and have a look around... There are a lot of great people here and there is a ton of useful info they share. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello Yin. Thank you for the welcome. My marriage made it 17 years before finally throwing in the towel. First marriage, too. I might have some wisdom from my experience (certainly hope so!). Unfortunately I get the sense that some posters use this site as an ego boost for issues they are still dealing with and find anyone elses contrary opinion threatening. That welcome (I use the term loosely) was downright abusive and I'm nobody's victim. So I'm leaving water to find its own level, I think. But thanks for your thoughtful post, appreciate it.


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