# 20 years of unrealized expectations



## TooSexy (May 15, 2015)

This is my first post. I hope that it's okay to get explicit and straight to the point.

I came from a conservative background and did not have sex until my wedding day. I did experience orgasm with the help of my fiance while we were engaged and even performed oral sex on her during that time, but she put off performing oral sex on me supposedly so that I would have something to look forward to on our honeymoon.

As you might guess, that turned out to be a disappointment, as she has only had her mouth on my member a few times in the past 20 years and has never been enthusiastic about it. She even stopped allowing me to do it for her a few years ago. It turned out that she was never very big on it, as she finds that type of contact repulsive.

I might be able to cope with that if we were able to satisfy each other in other ways, but sex has never been a priority for her. She doesn't get horny, she doesn't experience orgasm, and she has never masturbated. She won't see a doctor about it either. I'm an attractive man, and she is attracted to me, but I have always felt unsatisfied with our sex life, so much so that I have asked her permission to seek out additional partners. This upsets her. We usually have vanilla sex at least twice per month. I would prefer more adventurous sex at least six times per month. She would probably prefer once every three months.

Another problem is that we have grown apart in other ways. I feel that I have continued to educate myself much more than she has. I rarely enjoy her company anymore. I try to listen to her and be loving and supportive, but I find myself bored and disagreeing with her much of the time.

I have asked her if she wants to go to counseling with me, but she doesn't like that idea.

She has known for years how important this is to me but simply asks me to be patient, keep trying, and remain faithfully married to her.

She has asked me a couple of times lately why I married her. The truth is that I had cold feet at the time but felt obligated at a certain point. I was also horny and felt that I needed to be married before becoming sexually active. Within a month of marriage she knew that I was unsatisfied. In hindsight, instead of remaining married and having children with her, I wish that we had ended it then.

Thanks for reading. All perspectives are welcome.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*Vanilla sex twice a month for a healthy man wanting sex six 6 times a month is asking for big trouble*. Really, how much trouble is it for the wife to try and please her husband 6 times a month? What are we talking about here; a total of around 3-6 hours per month of her time! I bet she spends more than 3-6 hours a month on what she enjoys.

Based on what you have written so far your wife is selfish and inconsiderate. Your relationship with her will probably continue to deteriorate. Give her only 3-6 hours of your attention and money and any other things that you provide and see how she likes it.

The bottom line is that you have to put yourself out for her and she has to put herself out for you in many aspects of marriage. For men to have to put up with selfishness in sex is playing with fire in a marriage. There is just no excuse for her based upon what you have written.

You have already told us that you wished that you did not marry her and that tells me that you are really very dissatisfied with her. *If she will not change then what is your plan to make yourself happier with her or without her?*


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

I think your story is the same as many of us guys of this list, who have been married to the same woman for around the same period of time.

In addition, I might add:

* Kids coming along only made things worse.
* Sometimes you wonder if LD women don't care, are unaware, or won't try
* To keep you from coming back, they'll often insult you. Sexually too.
* This is happening to women too, but in a 66:33 ratio, some studies say
* Liking each other when the sex is bad can be next to impossible
* The question is: what's the best way to get more nooky?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

TooSexy said:


> This is my first post. I hope that it's okay to get explicit and straight to the point.
> 
> I came from a conservative background and did not have sex until my wedding day. I did experience orgasm with the help of my fiance while we were engaged and even performed oral sex on her during that time, but she put off performing oral sex on me supposedly so that I would have something to look forward to on our honeymoon.
> 
> ...


This sounds kind of similar to my situation. I've been married for 23 years and my wife was not really into sex. It was all a chore to her, or at least that's how I felt.
I can tell you that her feeling that you're "unsatisfied" and you asking to see other women has COMPLETELY killed her sex drive. My wife was so frustrated that she told me things like, "maybe you should just go out and find a prostitute to do all those "things" you want to do."

Not until I really invested myself into LOVING her unconditionally, listening to her INTENTLY, did she start to open up. You have a BUNCH of work to do.

However, I will tell you that 23 years in I am having the very BEST sex of my life. It can change. If you love her, it is possible.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

And yet another situation in which religious chastity masks sex aversion.

Dude, you're up the creek unless or until you're prepared to make an ultimatum.

We attend marriage counseling that includes sex therapy or we agree to part ways.

That's the bottom line. Unless she is willing to work on her issues with sex, it doesn't matter what you do, how you look, how much you make, or how many other women might also want you, your marriage and sex life will suffer.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I'm going to guess that the topic discussed is "sex", right?

The way to address it is that you want a "fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship" with your wife, not "sex". Explain that this type of relationship goes hand-in-hand with monogamy. You can't be expected to have one without the other. When that happens, marriages disintegrate.

Ask her to go to counseling with you. If she refuses, go alone and let her know you are going because you feel the marriage is in trouble. At counseling you will learn (a) how to help her change, (b) how to live with how she is or (c) how to leave her.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

TooSexy said:


> This is my first post. I hope that it's okay to get explicit and straight to the point.
> 
> I came from a conservative background and did not have sex until my wedding day. I did experience orgasm with the help of my fiance while we were engaged and even performed oral sex on her during that time, but she put off performing oral sex on me supposedly so that I would have something to look forward to on our honeymoon.
> 
> ...


Was she specific about what she wants you to keep trying?

Having patience is fine, but in absence of any kind of definitive action on her part--not so much. I would say definitive action would be counseling--minimum.


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## TooSexy (May 15, 2015)

UMP said:


> This sounds kind of similar to my situation. I've been married for 23 years and my wife was not really into sex. It was all a chore to her, or at least that's how I felt.
> I can tell you that her feeling that you're "unsatisfied" and you asking to see other women has COMPLETELY killed her sex drive. My wife was so frustrated that she told me things like, "maybe you should just go out and find a prostitute to do all those "things" you want to do."
> 
> Not until I really invested myself into LOVING her unconditionally, listening to her INTENTLY, did she start to open up. You have a BUNCH of work to do.
> ...


You make a valid point here. She has mentioned to me that she needs to know that I still love her, regardless of her performance in bed. It's almost a catch 22. Her failure to stay interesting to me doesn't help things. I really have to work at staying attracted to her. But she tells me that she'll have a desire to do things for me if I work at what she finds attractive and do a better job of connecting with her. Two things I've already been doing are drinking less and spending more time with her, going on walks and listening to how her day went. Two more things that she would like me to do are to workout more (bulk up and lose 2 or 3 inches around the waist) and spend my evenings doing something useful with my talents (I was a performing singer/songwriter when we first met).

Regarding ultimatums, I have given her three options: 1) Work with me to make things better (it can't all be on me), 2) Let me see other people (as long as I'm safe and perform for her when desired), 3) Divorce

When I suggested those options, all that she heard was "divorce" and throwing away all that we have built together over something she probably sees as childish, trivial, and unreasonable.

So maybe I should put more work into what she wants and making her feel secure before asking her for more.


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## tonygunner007 (Apr 24, 2015)

I picked up 3 things from what you said...

1. She has become too comfortable with you - so comfortable that she doesn't even want to make efforts. It seems like you're not firm with her - like you beg her for it. If you're not happy in a marriage (for whatever reason), you're free to leave - and you must be willing to do that. It doesn't necessarily mean you leave. Just let her understand (not just by what you say) that you have the balls to leave.

2. You need to build your sex skill. Just because we came fitted with an apparatus, it doesn't mean we automatically know how to use it.

3. I think your wife is an emotional lover (as opposed to physical). She's the type that say's "make love 2 me" as opposed to "f*** me". You need to learn to connect emotionally with her. Discover those tiny things that turn her on.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Does your wife now that human biology is such that a sex is the glue that binds a couple?

It's biology.. do some reading oxytocin, dopamine, etc. and the part they play in human love for a spouse/SO. 

Find a marriage counselor who is also a sex therapist. Your wife was most likely raised to think that sex does not equal love. In a good relationship sex is the best way to express and feel loved.

Part of why she does not feel loved is that her oxytocin levels are probably too low so it makes her not want sex. A downward spiral.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

This isn't easy to fix, I've been there. We train a girl to be virtuous and pure and then are surprised when the brain washing isn't easily fixed. 

It took me years to reverse this thinking and I was only about 90% successful. I can still hear the voices saying ****, *****, disgusting, etc. 

You can try all the stuff that people recommend here. Ultimatums, shaming, threatening, but I don't believe those will change her heart. If she is not open to therapy there won't be any lasting improvement. Our therapy took several years and went in small baby steps. After so many years for you it will be difficult to impossible.😦


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

TooSexy said:


> You make a valid point here. She has mentioned to me that she needs to know that I still love her, regardless of her performance in bed. It's almost a catch 22. Her failure to stay interesting to me doesn't help things. I really have to work at staying attracted to her. But she tells me that she'll have a desire to do things for me if I work at what she finds attractive and do a better job of connecting with her. Two things I've already been doing are drinking less and spending more time with her, going on walks and listening to how her day went. Two more things that she would like me to do are to workout more (bulk up and lose 2 or 3 inches around the waist) and spend my evenings doing something useful with my talents (I was a performing singer/songwriter when we first met).
> 
> Regarding ultimatums, I have given her three options: 1) Work with me to make things better (it can't all be on me), 2) Let me see other people (as long as I'm safe and perform for her when desired), 3) Divorce
> 
> ...


And, may I ask, while you are doing all these things to win her attraction, what change is she bringing to the table?

Sounds like you're addressing a laundry list of complaints and she'll always have wiggle room to say you didn't measure up to her attractiveness standards. It's not a bad idea to resolve to improve yourself. It will make you that much more attractive to others once you move onto the inevitable #3 option. 

Unless she's the perfect woman, what commitments has she made to improvement?


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## TooSexy (May 15, 2015)

She said that she would work through a book with me if that will keep me from leaving or straying. I've been wanting to go through this Acupressure for Lovers book: http://www.amazon.com/Acupressure-Lovers-Secrets-Increasing-Intimacy/dp/055337401X

Any other book suggestions?

I'm not sure if I'm up for years of therapy. I might look into a book that covers marriage and sex therapy subjects.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

"No More Mr. Nice Guy" for you. Don't tell her you're reading it.

"The Way of the Superior Man" also for you. People either really like it or really hate it. I think the part about how women's emotional brain works is well worth reading. The rest was kind of New Age and definitely would not work with my wife.

The website Front Page might help because it is a Christian based site which promotes healthy sex within a marriage.


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## tonygunner007 (Apr 24, 2015)

TooSexy said:


> She said that she would work through a book with me if that will keep me from leaving or straying. I've been wanting to go through this Acupressure for Lovers book: http://www.amazon.com/Acupressure-Lovers-Secrets-Increasing-Intimacy/dp/055337401X
> 
> Any other book suggestions?
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm up for years of therapy. I might look into a book that covers marriage and sex therapy subjects.


Read "How to Make Love All Night (and Drive a Woman Wild)" by Barbara Keesling, Ph.D. It will open you up to a whole new world of human sexuality.


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## TooSexy (May 15, 2015)

tonygunner007 said:


> Read "How to Make Love All Night (and Drive a Woman Wild)" by Barbara Keesling, Ph.D. It will open you up to a whole new world of human sexuality.


I have a book on multiple male orgasms, and my wife will attest that I'm great in bed (she was not a virgin when we married). I've read plenty. She is the one who could do some reading in this department.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

TooSexy said:


> ....she has only had her mouth on my member a few times in the past 20 years and has never been enthusiastic about it. She even stopped allowing me to do it for her a few years ago. It turned out that she was never very big on it, as she finds that type of contact repulsive.
> 
> ...I might be able to cope with that if we were able to satisfy each other in other ways, but sex has never been a priority for her. She doesn't get horny, she doesn't experience orgasm, and she has never masturbated.
> 
> ...


OK, are you married to my wife or her sister?

Seriously, you need to sit down in front of a mirror and ask yourself some serious questions. The tough one. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. Yes, you have asked her if you can cheat on her. You have drifted away from her. You feel you have kept learning and she hasn't. You feel she is boring.

Wives, after decades know how we feel from body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. She knows how you fell about her. Think about that for a few minutes. If you were in her panties, and you had some guy who wanted to cheat on you and didn't think much of you, would you want to have passionate sex with him? NOPE.

Yes she is part of the problem in your marriage, but so are you. I was in an SSM and it took me a lot of reading (NMMNG, Chapmans 5 LL, Sue Johnson's Hold me Tight, Schnarch Passionate Marriage, MW Davis SSM, etc.) before I figured out that I was part of the problem. A big part of the problem. Once I healed myself, "got a life (either Davis or Glover)" and proivded her with unconditional love in her love languages, she turned around.

Now ask yourself if you were in your wife's panties, and you were married to a guy who wanted your permission to cheat on you, wanted to do repulsive and disgusting stuff to you way to often, would you want to go to a councelor to her your husband blather such things in public to a total stranger? When you feel and are certain that there is nothing wrong with you, would you go with your H to counseling, where he expects you will get fixed? Nope, not on your life.

The point to this is that there are two sides to all stories. You have expressed yours. You wife may have a totally different take on all the same facts. It really does take to to make or wreck a marrriage.

Good luck to you.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I've been there done that, and with the benefit of hindsight you need to do three things:

1) Read No More Mr. Nice Guy and learn the lessons contained therein.

2) Own your personal needs (sexual and non-sexual) and assert them as appropriate within the marriage and equally important to those of your wife.

3) Become able to approach your wife in a matter-of-fact manner regarding these matters.

Right now you are approaching this problem with your wife's perspective as the baseline and you are hesitating to challenge her outlook. She committed to a certain level of sexual performance then failed to meet her commitment. She refuses reasonable requests for professional help. She tells you what might work for her (even though things have not changed in decades) and you're ready to dance to her tune.

This approach is destined to fail, because:

1) There is a likelihood she is telling you to do these things just to you off her back (she will always throw something else at you or cite your failure as reason to not provide).
2)There is a likelihood she is asking for things that she likes but will not actually boost the sex life.
3) You two do not even agree on what a "better" sex life looks like (or at least it seems that way). Have you considered that she might not even view physical pleasure as a goal of sex?

A better way to go about this is to tell her flat out "I need a sex life that leaves me physically fulfilled . In order for that to happen, I need to have <ABC> at a frequency of <XYZ>." Follow that up with "I am all for making changes to make myself more attractive to you and to better meet your needs, but this must be the goal towards which we are working". 

And then, add to that "you want this marriage to succeed and so do I. After such a long time with a bad sex life, we really need professional help to bring the marriage to a sustainable place. Also, you need individual help to deal with your sexual aversions and to understand why you feel it is okay to make promises you do not intend to keep in order to get what you want".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Young at Heart said:


> OK, are you married to my wife or her sister?
> 
> Seriously, you need to sit down in front of a mirror and ask yourself some serious questions. The tough one. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. Yes, you have asked her if you can cheat on her. You have drifted away from her. You feel you have kept learning and she hasn't. You feel she is boring.
> 
> ...


I am not buying it. First of all, consider that his wife committed to a better sex life after marriage. That never materialized, which means she intentionally misled him. That is a serious character issue. If she really feels that nothing is wrong with her, she has serious personal issues and not just marriage issues.

The second issue is that she won't see a counselor. That does not mean she is sure nothing is wrong. It does mean that she knows something is wrong with her behavior and/or she does not care enough about him to change her behavior.

The third issue, to which you alluded, is her hangups. That "stuff" he wants is gross (but that did not stop her from promising it). Apparently she has no desire to overcome them. In fact, I have a hunch she is offended by his preferences. He will never get what he wants if he does not pursue it.

The issue here is the marriage is going well for her. She has little incentive to do anything different. She wants to be married to him (so much so that she lied to him about sex) and he has been faithful for over 20 years. She tells him what she wants done differently and he steps up. She does not want to do sex differently and he sucks it up. She does not experience any negative consequences from her behavior.

Change in not in her best interest. They go to a marriage counselor who will almost certainly note that his requests are reasonable and common. The potential outcomes are:

1) She steps up her game and provides a satisfying (for him) sex life. She would consider that a loss for her.

2) He gets fed up and leaves. Again, a loss for her.

3) He gets fed up and does not leave, but pulls away even more as he comes to understand that not even professional help will improve his sex life. Another loss for her.

What he needs to do is remove the status quo as an option. If that sex drive is there somewhere, she needs to work with him to provide a sex life satisfying to him (which means losing the aversions she has). Otherwise there will be consequences. The unfortunate truth is that some people are not motivated by meeting their commitments or doing right by their partners. They are motivated by what gets them the most personal benefit, and you need to approach them from that perspective.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DTO and YoungAtHeart, I think you both offer excellent perspective.

YoungAtHeart really captured the unpalatable perspective of OP's wife. Even though we ALL agree that marriage entails a certain amount of sexual encounters it isn't something that can be approached without empathy and owning responsibility toward making it a pleasurable and happy event. For whatever reason, OP's wife entered marriage with the idea that sex wasn't important and as a result her attitude about caused HIS attitude about being entitled to have sex, which then caused HER to push away and shut down.

YoungAtHeart is right, OP needs to look at himself and seek to identify how he has contributed to the problem. Men and women approach sex differently and a woman raised in a repressed environment in which sexuality was a shamefull thing means she has some serious deprogramming educational needs while at the same time OP needs to step up and make himself as sexually attentive and attractive as he can.



> You make a valid point here. She has mentioned to me that *she needs to know that I still love her, regardless of her performance in bed*. It's almost a catch 22. Her failure to stay interesting to me doesn't help things. I really have to work at staying attracted to her.
> 
> But *she tells me that she'll have a desire to do things for me if I work at what she finds attractive and do a better job of connecting with her.* Two things I've already been doing are drinking less and spending more time with her, going on walks and listening to how her day went. Two more things that she would like me to do are to workout more (bulk up and lose 2 or 3 inches around the waist) and spend my evenings doing something useful with my talents (I was a performing singer/songwriter when we first met).
> 
> ...


Yes, you should.

This is great OP. If you want her to work with you, if you want to save this marriage, you're going to have to work on yourself and make your wife feel confident enough to take the risk you are asking her to take.

As you felt unloved by the lack of sex you pulled away and put less and less effort into the relationship. As you pulled away, she pulled away even more.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

DTO said:


> ...The issue here is the marriage is going well for her. She has little incentive to do anything different. She wants to be married to him (so much so that she lied to him about sex) and he has been faithful for over 20 years. She tells him what she wants done differently and he steps up. She does not want to do sex differently and he sucks it up. She does not experience any negative consequences from her behavior.
> 
> ...What he needs to do is remove the status quo as an option. If that sex drive is there somewhere, she needs to work with him to provide a sex life satisfying to him (which means losing the aversions she has). Otherwise there will be consequences. The unfortunate truth is that some people are not motivated by meeting their commitments or doing right by their partners. They are motivated by what gets them the most personal benefit, and you need to approach them from that perspective.


I both agree and disagree with you. 

I don't know many spouses who when looking across at the person they married and not being able to make them feel happy or loved, will quitely sit back and feel really good about themselves. My wife used anger at me to mask her deep desire to feel close to me and her feelings of sexual failure as a woman. Or at least that is how I finally understood things in counseling. 

So even though she is avoiding sex with her H, "the marriage may NOT be going well for her." Yes, she is getting her way, but is that really making her feel happy and good about herself? Probably not if she were to really thnk about it. Your reasoning as to why she would avoid counseling just kind of reinforces that.

Still I also agree with you to the extent that I really do believe in conditioned response, in kind of a bizzare Skinner way. Each time we interact with our partner we are conducting a Pavlovian training session of sorts. They have done a "dance" (training sessions) together for years gradually changing the level of positive or negative reinforcement. This has resulted in their sex life going downhill. If they both participated in it, then they each OWN the problem. 

If she were an alcoholic, he would be considered an enabler. Instead she is a sex-avoider and he has helped enable that.

You are completely right in that the Status quo needs to change and a new dance with new positive reinforcement needs to be initiated.

This issue is partially what MWDavis and others refer to as the 180. It is changing the status quo, changing the dynamic.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> OK, are you married to my wife or her sister?
> 
> Seriously, you need to sit down in front of a mirror and ask yourself some serious questions. The tough one. YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. Yes, you have asked her if you can cheat on her. You have drifted away from her. You feel you have kept learning and she hasn't. You feel she is boring.
> 
> ...


:iagree:
You have real insight on how a low libido spouse feels. It is not like we don't know sex is important, we do. However, we tend to count all of the other things we do for you, and when you say things like , " that doesn't matter because I want the sex to improve", the progress comes to a standstill. We don't know why you will throw away years of marriage and a relationship just for 20 minutes of bump and grind twice to three times a week.  This is the toxic thoughts which go through our minds on occasion.

We need to come to an understanding of one another, we can't see each other as the enemy. Because in the end we have the same goal in mind which is a harmonious marriage.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Young at Heart said:


> I don't know many spouses who when looking across at the person they married and not being able to make them feel happy or loved, will quitely sit back and feel really good about themselves. My wife used anger at me to mask her deep desire to feel close to me and her feelings of sexual failure as a woman. Or at least that is how I finally understood things in counseling.


Yours may be the more typical case. But keep in mind the OP's wife promised something she did not like nor intend to do to get his commitment. She knew she would fail at meeting this need, so I don't believe it would bother her much now.

What happened to the OP happened to me too. Having BTDT, it is more likely she is upset that the poor sex is still an issue. To her, she had a good reason to lie about the sex and now he is beating a dead horse. If he imposes significant consequences for her failing, she will see him as a d!ck for hurting her over what she considers trivial issues.

She does not go to counseling because her behavior will come out. It would go something like:

Counselor: "so tell me about the sexual history of your marriage"
OP: "We had some intimacy before marriage. She committed to do what I liked after marriage but never kept her word. She admitted later she never liked those things."

I don't see his wife as someone who cares if he is fulfilled. And when I say "cares", I don't mean a sentiment of "it would be nice if he was fulfilled"; I mean a sentiment of "I made specific commitments to him that I should keep". So then why would she go, to look bad (and rightfully so) in front of a stranger and risk him being emboldened to demand change?



Young at Heart said:


> So even though she is avoiding sex with her H, "the marriage may NOT be going well for her." Yes, she is getting her way, but is that really making her feel happy and good about herself? Probably not if she were to really thnk about it. Your reasoning as to why she would avoid counseling just kind of reinforces that.


Okay, so let me replace "the marriage is going well for her" with "for her, this is as good as it gets". You really are arguing over semantics. The root issue remains her focus on what works for her, not what is fair to him.

I do not believe she feels bad over failing him sexually, because she never intended to succeed on the agreed terms. She might be angry that she suffers negative consequences stemming from her failure, but that is not the same thing.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

DTO said:


> Yours may be the more typical case. But keep in mind the *OP's wife promised something she did not like nor intend to do to get his commitment*. She knew she would fail at meeting this need, so I don't believe it would bother her much now.
> 
> What happened to the OP happened to me too. Having *BTDT*, it is more likely she is upset that the poor sex is still an issue. *To her, she had a good reason to lie about the sex and now he is beating a dead horse.* If he imposes significant consequences for her failing, she will see him as a d!ck for hurting her over what she considers trivial issues.
> 
> ...


Well said! I agree with much of what you are saying. But there are few points I would like to comment on. Mostly about the LD wife's intent.

First BTDT. My wife promised me BJ's prior to marriage. It has never happened. Once in our marriage I demanded them weekly and each week she came up with excuses. Finally, she told me she was saving them to keep things spicy in our old age. We are both over 65, and in conseling with a sex therapist, she finally admitted it isn't going to ever happen because it is too disgusting to her, (even though she hasnt' tried it!) She told me that when she promised, she knew people did it and hoped that she would change early in our marriage, but just couldn't do it.  I honestly believe she hoped she would have been able to do it.

There are things that people think they may be flexible on before marriage that they find are "red lines" to them after they have been married a while. It is bait and switch. It is wrong. It happens. .....but it may not have been by intent. To ascribe intent to the OP's wife would make her a pretty evil person. There are evil gold-diggers or manipulators out there, they are just not as many as sometimes appear.

Next depending on the age when people get married, they may not really be thinking about the "implied committments" they are making by getting married. That is why most churches require a pre-marital interview or course on what marriage means. Look at all the folks who get married on a whim. Remember Brittany Spears weekend marriage followed by a quick divorce? All the high profile Hollywood, serial marriages? 

I have been interacting recently with some 30-year old first time married guys. They are finding that marriage is a huge change in their life, even those that had lived with their spouse prior to mariage. 

Finally, as to anger over the negative consequences of her marriage. Again. Right on. Many folks have an illusion of marriage, an illusion of family, and an illusion of holidays. 

Marriage is not what Hollywood movies or romance novels potray it as. Breastfeeding a child every two hours until nipples bleed and being terribly sleep deprived are not things love-birds think about. Changing dirty diapers, whiping vomit off things, dealing with 2-year olds temper tantrums are all part of a "typical' marriage, yet not what lovers think about when they say "I do."

As David Schnarch points out (Passionate Marriage) that Marriage is one of the most intense transformational institutions known. It will change two people and make them grow in ways they never thought possible, if done well. For many, the "done well" doesn't happen and rather than facing the reality of the situation, they blame their partner and delude themselves with victimhood.

So we probably agree on a lot. As an old guy, I have seen a lot of human weakness and recognize and forgive it for what it is. Each thing that our spouse does to us, we can accept, ignore, or call them out and talk to them about it. 

A hard lesson learned late in life for me was that if my wife trys to pick a fight with me, I don't have to accept and fight with her. Instead, I can calmly talk to her, ask her what she wants to happen and decide what I want to do or not do. I can also inform her of my boundaries on things.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

techmom said:


> You have real insight on how a low libido spouse feels. It is not like we don't know sex is important, we do. However, we tend to count all of the other things we do for you, and when you say things like , " that doesn't matter because I want the sex to improve", the progress comes to a standstill. We don't know why you will throw away years of marriage and a relationship just for 20 minutes of bump and grind twice to three times a week. This is the toxic thoughts which go through our minds on occasion.
> 
> We need to come to an understanding of one another, we can't see each other as the enemy. Because in the end we have the same goal in mind which is a harmonious marriage.


:iagree:

One of the things stessed to me in a Gottman's weekend workshop was that if you want to negotiate a change by your spouse in the way they treat you; you should be able to understand and state their reasons for doing what they do better than they can. Only with that level of understanding (having been gained from a lot of listening and asking polite questions) will you gain insights into what kind of compromises may work for the both of you.

One of the things that my wife said when she first objected to counseling was that she was not broken and didn't need to be fixed. Luckily, I was able to point out and read to her from David Schnarch that in every marriage for all aspects of marriage there are LD and HD aspects. In some marriages one partner is LD about watching football on TV each Saturday & Sunday, while the other is HD. Often times one partner is HD for chocolate ice cream for dessert, while the other doesn't like dessert and prefers vanillia. There is not "correct" amount of weekend football watching and there is no correct amount of chocolate ice cream eating. The same is true for the frequency and type of sex in a marriage. The goal as you point out is to find a compromise that works for both in sex, dessert and TV watching.

As to the importance of 20 minutes of bump and grind, for some (like me) sex is more about feeling bonded, close and intimate with my wife, than it is about the bump and grind. For my wife who values quality time, a great discussion over a candle lit dinner makes her feel really close to me. For me, the act of sex, the complete surrender of all control of my body to another person along with the release of bonding/cuddling hormones creates profound emotional and chemical changes in me that makes me feel close to my wife.

The first time I had sexual intercourse, I wondered why people made such a bid deal about it. Then I discovered how profound an impact it has on my emotions and outlook. To some men (and women) sex is transformational, intimacy affirming, and bonding. I understant that not everyone views it that way, but to some of us it really is that important.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

TooSexy said:


> You make a valid point here. She has mentioned to me that she needs to know that I still love her, regardless of her performance in bed. It's almost a catch 22. Her failure to stay interesting to me doesn't help things. I really have to work at staying attracted to her. But she tells me that she'll have a desire to do things for me if I work at what she finds attractive and do a better job of connecting with her. Two things I've already been doing are drinking less and spending more time with her, going on walks and listening to how her day went. Two more things that she would like me to do are to workout more (bulk up and lose 2 or 3 inches around the waist) and spend my evenings doing something useful with my talents (I was a performing singer/songwriter when we first met). *Yes to all of this stuff. I find spending time with my W and being attentive to her needs is the one best formula for deep intimate no holes barred sex. When I mean time it is no less than 15 hours per week undivided attention time. Most weeks my W and I spend 25 plus hours together. Sex is upwards of 3-4 times per week. *
> 
> Regarding ultimatums, I have given her three options: 1) Work with me to make things better (it can't all be on me), 2) Let me see other people (as long as I'm safe and perform for her when desired)*Not the best thing to suggest at all. May not recover from this one. *, 3) Divorce
> 
> ...


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

OP, do you have kids together?

If yes, divorce.
If no, divorce.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

It looks like there are improvements to be made on both sides.

Some optimists will tell you that if you do all the things your wife requested, that she will start having better sex with you. I've rarely seen it happen. But, it could.

However, you ARE asking her to change so it's only fair that she gets to have her list as well. 

So, address those concerns of hers that you feel are reasonable and warranted. When you've done your part, then it's her turn.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Young at Heart said:


> Well said! I agree with much of what you are saying. But there are few points I would like to comment on. Mostly about the LD wife's intent.
> 
> First BTDT. My wife promised me BJ's prior to marriage. It has never happened. Once in our marriage I demanded them weekly and each week she came up with excuses. Finally, she told me she was saving them to keep things spicy in our old age. We are both over 65, and in conseling with a sex therapist, she finally admitted it isn't going to ever happen because it is too disgusting to her, (even though she hasnt' tried it!) She told me that when she promised, she knew people did it and hoped that she would change early in our marriage, but just couldn't do it. I honestly believe she hoped she would have been able to do it.
> 
> ...


You know what? I am just not buying it. My thoughts are:

1) A commitment is a hard "yes", not a "maybe". Making that commitment when you are uncertain is an intentional act of deception. That is definitely much more evil than not. Why not just answer with an honest "I will try, but no promises" or "I just don't see that happening in any relationship I am in"?

I do not believe that a woman or man who promise a certain standard of sex is surprised when he or she does not want to do it. He or she might hope it will become palatable over time, but if being honest will acknowledge it was a long shot to begin with.

2) The person who dishonored the commitment does not admit the issue up front and often not at all without being pressured. That person would certainly know soon after the wedding that fulfilling the promise is tougher than was hoped. Why not tell your spouse "I am sorry but I cannot. I would like to work on making you happy, but if not I will make a divorce easy for you". Or what about "I cannot do it now, but I own my hangups and will do what is necessary to overcome them"?

3) What does happen is the dishonoring spouse gets indignant. In my experience and in the threads I read, I cannot recall a single instance where the dishonoring spouse says "I am sorry, I really did you wrong. I don't deserve to be treated particularly well right now so I will lay low until you come to terms with this". What does happen is the dishonoring spouse says "are you still thinking about that nonsense? You need to get over it and keep being a good spouse.

Also, keep in mind the OP is not arguing "implied commitment". He is talking about an express commitment she bailed on.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DTO said:


> You know what? I am just not buying it. My thoughts are:
> 
> 1) A commitment is a hard "yes", not a "maybe". Making that commitment when you are uncertain is an intentional act of deception. That is definitely much more evil than not. Why not just answer with an honest "I will try, but no promises" or "I just don't see that happening in any relationship I am in"?


That sounds perfect in theory. But it's not at all realistic. When I said "I do" I didn't want kids for at least 5 years and possibly never. 3 months later.... I had to rethink that. and when it comes to sex specifically, we all think that our futures will magically include stronger, brighter, better people in ourselves and the reality is that sometimes we just can't do what we set out to do. We all make promises with our best intention and we all fail from time to time.



> I do not believe that a woman or man who promise a certain standard of sex is surprised when he or she does not want to do it. He or she might hope it will become palatable over time, but if being honest will acknowledge it was a long shot to begin with.


When I got married there were certain sex acts I wanted no part of. I hoped my H would be satisfied with what we had already been doing. Also, I never thought I would spend many years not being attracted to my H for various reasons and not want sex with him for that and other reasons. You can plan for that to happen. You also can't plan for growth which made those sex acts once abhorrent to me, very good.



> 2) The person who dishonored the commitment does not admit the issue up front and often not at all without being pressured. That person would certainly know soon after the wedding that fulfilling the promise is tougher than was hoped. Why not tell your spouse "I am sorry but I cannot. I would like to work on making you happy, but if not I will make a divorce easy for you". Or what about "I cannot do it now, but I own my hangups and will do what is necessary to overcome them"?


Actually, I agree with this. It's just that it takes a level of self honesty not to many young people have.



> 3) What does happen is the dishonoring spouse gets indignant. In my experience and in the threads I read, I cannot recall a single instance where the dishonoring spouse says "I am sorry, I really did you wrong. I don't deserve to be treated particularly well right now so I will lay low until you come to terms with this". What does happen is the dishonoring spouse says "are you still thinking about that nonsense? You need to get over it and keep being a good spouse.


That's just classic minimizing. Easy to over come.



> Also, keep in mind the OP is not arguing "implied commitment". He is talking about an express commitment she bailed on.


As does every other sexless spouse that comes here. There comes a time when you have to make up your mind on who you are and what you want. Want to be a victim, then keep blaming and do not ever look within. Want to make your marriage work, then find ways to deeply understand one another so a compromise can be met. Some marriages should end. But even then remaining in the victim chair won't serve you well when the next relationship comes along because victims attract other victims or other abusers.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> That sounds perfect in theory. But it's not at all realistic. When I said "I do" I didn't want kids for at least 5 years and possibly never. 3 months later.... I had to rethink that. and when it comes to sex specifically, we all think that our futures will magically include stronger, brighter, better people in ourselves and the reality is that sometimes we just can't do what we set out to do. We all make promises with our best intention and we all fail from time to time.


I don't think you are really getting what I am saying. You are talking about a condition that did not exist prior to marriage. I and the OP are talking about situations where the aversion existed but was concealed. A better comparison would be if the wife had a sudden medical problem develop after marriage and could not perform. Of course that would be a totally different situation calling for patience and forbearance.

Also, the problem with failing is not necessarily the failing per se. It is a matter of how hard does the spouse try to make it work? I was in this situation, and I expected my ex to really try at it. Putting her face close to it once or twice is not trying, trying is doing the work to understand and overcome your aversions, getting therapy if necessary.



Anon Pink said:


> When I got married there were certain sex acts I wanted no part of. I hoped my H would be satisfied with what we had already been doing. Also, I never thought I would spend many years not being attracted to my H for various reasons and not want sex with him for that and other reasons. You can plan for that to happen. You also can't plan for growth which made those sex acts once abhorrent to me, very good.


It is fine there are acts you wanted no part of at the time you got married. Simply state your position of "don't expect anything more than you are getting right now" and own it. You should not have to hope he is okay with it. Get him to confirm.



Anon Pink said:


> That's just classic minimizing. Easy to over come.


I am not sure what you mean by "classic minimizing".



Anon Pink said:


> As does every other sexless spouse that comes here. There comes a time when you have to make up your mind on who you are and what you want. Want to be a victim, then keep blaming and do not ever look within. Want to make your marriage work, then find ways to deeply understand one another so a compromise can be met. Some marriages should end. But even then remaining in the victim chair won't serve you well when the next relationship comes along because victims attract other victims or other abusers.


Totally agree. I meant this as a response to the poster who said implied commitments are tricky because people don't fully understand them the same way. I was merely pointing out that this was not an issue of implied anything.


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## ToothFairy (May 19, 2013)

"I have a book on multiple male orgasms, and my wife will attest that I'm great in bed (she was not a virgin when we married). I've read plenty. She is the one who could do some reading in this department."

Wow.. Really? could this be part of the problem? You read a book on MALE multiple orgasm? Glad you are working on how to meet YOUR needs MULTIPLE times. You are great in bed? Is that why she is begging you to have sex with her at least once every 3 months? 

Dude... wake up.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

DTO said:


> I don't think you are really getting what I am saying. You are talking about a condition that did not exist prior to marriage. I and the OP are talking about situations where the aversion existed but was concealed. A better comparison would be if the wife had a sudden medical problem develop after marriage and could not perform. Of course that would be a totally different situation calling for patience and forbearance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This covers him for the first year. But he has to be responsible at some point for his choice to stay. That's on him.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

DTO said:


> ...Also, keep in mind the OP is not arguing "implied commitment". He is talking about an express commitment she bailed on.


My wife made a hard commitment of BJ's to me. Hoped she could, but never did. Early in the marriage pressure on her from her family to make sure the marriage succeeded would not have allowed her to gallantly back out of the marriage. Later on, conern over kids would not have allowed her to gallantly back out of marriage no matter how un"honerable" in her promise she had been. 

Life is more complicated. Sometimes both people get trapped by good and bad intensions.

Just my observations.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> :iagree:
> You have real insight on how a low libido spouse feels. It is not like we don't know sex is important, we do. However, we tend to count all of the other things we do for you, and when you say things like , " that doesn't matter because I want the sex to improve", the progress comes to a standstill. *We don't know why you will throw away years of marriage and a relationship just for 20 minutes of bump and grind twice to three times a week. *This is the toxic thoughts which go through our minds on occasion.
> 
> We need to come to an understanding of one another, we can't see each other as the enemy. Because in the end we have the same goal in mind which is a harmonious marriage.



It's definitely a toxic thought. I read it and thought this:



> We don't know why you will throw away years of marriage and a relationship just to avoid 20 minutes of bump and grind twice to three times a week.


In my opinion, if you're an LD spouse who's marriage ends because of it, _you_ are the one who threw it away.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DTO said:


> I don't think you are really getting what I am saying. You are talking about a condition that did not exist prior to marriage. I and the OP are talking about situations where the aversion existed but was concealed. A better comparison would be if the wife had a sudden medical problem develop after marriage and could not perform. Of course that would be a totally different situation calling for patience and forbearance.
> 
> Also, the problem with failing is not necessarily the failing per se. It is a matter of how hard does the spouse try to make it work? I was in this situation, and I expected my ex to really try at it. Putting her face close to it once or twice is not trying, trying is doing the work to understand and overcome your aversions, getting therapy if necessary.



You're right, I used a poor example.

My point is I do not believe the average LD/HD marriage is one in which the LD spouse consciously pulled the wool over the HD's head. 

I think the vast majority of people approach their wedding having never actually talked about sex and sexual expectations. And if by chance they have, I think the LD spouse or a spouse with an aversion to BJ's probably expects him/herself to be able to make their spouse content by either magically developing a stronger desire, *or by foolishly expecting their spouse to stop wanting. * I really don't think bait and switch, he intentional misrepresentation of true sexual desire, happens nearly as often as SIM contributors ascribe.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I kind of agree. Here's the thing, personally that basically means every assumption made on both sides was basically wrong. 

For example, my wife played golf with me often before marriage. After marriage? Not once, not interested, go enjoy yourself honey! I guess the non-charitable view is that was bait and switch. I've been known to point that one out to others in the past. She doesn't like it, but she is unable to defend it either. 

The charitable explanation and the reason I've stopped pointing it out. I played golf because I liked it and thought it was fantastic she wanted to come along, she played golf because she wanted to spend time with me, whatever I was doing she would have come along. 






Anon Pink said:


> You're right, I used a poor example.
> 
> My point is I do not believe the average LD/HD marriage is one in which the LD spouse consciously pulled the wool over the HD's head.
> 
> I think the vast majority of people approach their wedding having never actually talked about sex and sexual expectations. And if by chance they have, I think the LD spouse or a spouse with an aversion to BJ's probably expects him/herself to be able to make their spouse content by either magically developing a stronger desire, *or by foolishly expecting their spouse to stop wanting. * I really don't think bait and switch, he intentional misrepresentation of true sexual desire, happens nearly as often as SIM contributors ascribe.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I read that most expectations in marriage are not explicitly stated. Not out of an attempt to deceive.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

anonmd said:


> I kind of agree. Here's the thing, personally that basically means every assumption made on both sides was basically wrong.
> 
> For example, my wife played golf with me often before marriage. After marriage? Not once, not interested, go enjoy yourself honey! I guess the non-charitable view is that was bait and switch. I've been known to point that one out to others in the past. She doesn't like it, but she is unable to defend it either.
> 
> The charitable explanation and the reason I've stopped pointing it out. I played golf because I liked it and thought it was fantastic she wanted to come along, she played golf because she wanted to spend time with me, whatever I was doing she would have come along.


Golf is something you can do on your own with no participation from your SO. Sex is not. Different ballpark. Hell, different sports, literally. That is why almost no other comparison to sex can work, because when you are married you literally (unless you are a scumbag cheater) tie yourself to the other person, and your sexual happiness is in their hands. If they shut down the fun factory, your just up sh!t creek. When they lie to you about compatibilities before marriage, really there is only one reason......to make sure you don't dump them to find someone more compatible. When they lie to you about sexual incompatibilities, that is reprehensible. If you are honoring your vows, there really is no way to get any relief from that.

And people wonder why I have such a hard time with those that take autonomy away from people and those peoples chances to make INFORMED decisions.


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## TooSexy (May 15, 2015)

We watched Nick Offerman stand-up last night. After listening to him joke about giving good head for 90min and her mentioning that he really gets it, I was hoping that she would be up for oral sex, but she redirected my attempts to give and receive. We did have P-I-V sex, which we hadn't done in over a week, so I was please to get that but still disappointed. I'm not sure whether or not it's worth bringing up with her. I'm tired of trying.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If nothing has changed and you're still unhappy, it may be time for an upgrade to a different wife. Or at least a different life - without her.

Simple solutions like that are often best. It worked for me.


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## TooSexy (May 15, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> If nothing has changed and you're still unhappy, it may be time for an upgrade to a different wife. Or at least a different life - without her.
> 
> Simple solutions like that are often best. It worked for me.


It looks like you've been in a relationship for over 16 years. Did you make this change after so many? We're going on 21 years and have 3 kids that I'm still providing for.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TooSexy said:


> It looks like you've been in a relationship for over 16 years. Did you make this change after so many? We're going on 21 years and have 3 kids that I'm still providing for.


I exited my first marriage at 24 years, with one child starting high school. It would have been better for my child as well as for me if I had left sooner - he learned too many dysfunctional relationship behaviors that he later had to unlearn in his own relationships.

IMO, a marriage is worth saving if you can get the necessary changes to make it a happy choice to stay in it. Many marriages are not even worth the effort to fix, but it is usually a good idea to at least try if only for your own peace of mind.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The first rule is to recognize that love, while necessary is not sufficient for a mutually happy, healthy marriage. 

Marriages typically live or die on compatibility and the way couples navigate their incompatibilities - whatever they are. 

Compatibility rules:
- Do you like your wife? 
- Do you respect her? 
- Understand her? 

Forget sex for a moment. Does she crave your company and your non sexual touch? 

If so, your marriage CAN be good. If not, than maybe it can't. 



TooSexy said:


> It looks like you've been in a relationship for over 16 years. Did you make this change after so many? We're going on 21 years and have 3 kids that I'm still providing for.


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## TooSexy (May 15, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> The first rule is to recognize that love, while necessary is not sufficient for a mutually happy, healthy marriage.
> 
> Marriages typically live or die on compatibility and the way couples navigate their incompatibilities - whatever they are.
> 
> ...


I don't like her or respect much of what she has to say as much as I used to. I feel like I understand her but feel like I know better than her most of the time.

She's not a touchy person, though I am, which has always been difficult. She craves my non-sexual company, but I am bored and frustrated with hers most of the time. 

I feel like such an *******...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Too,

You understand how an extraction works yes? 

It's either done totally clean, or your left with a mountain of guilt that never goes away. 

The way that works is simple. You make a good faith sustained effort into bringing out her best. Usually you discover her best is pretty good - and stay put. 

But if it isn't, you leave with your head held high. 

Blowjobs are off the table. She dislikes them. A fun and reasonably frequent sex life is however a perfectly acceptable requirement for the marriage to continue. 

If you need some help defining a plan, just ask. 





TooSexy said:


> I don't like her or respect much of what she has to say as much as I used to. I feel like I understand her but feel like I know better than her most of the time.
> 
> She's not a touchy person, though I am, which has always been difficult. She craves my non-sexual company, but I am bored and frustrated with hers most of the time.
> 
> I feel like such an *******...


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## TooSexy (May 15, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Too,
> 
> You understand how an extraction works yes?
> 
> It's either done totally clean, or your left with a mountain of guilt that never goes away.


Actually, I'm not sure that I've heard that. I have several friends who have cheated and/or gone through ugly divorces.



MEM11363 said:


> The way that works is simple.  You make a good faith sustained effort into bringing out her best. Usually you discover her best is pretty good - and stay put.
> 
> But if it isn't, you leave with your head held high.


Does this always involved counseling? 



MEM11363 said:


> Blowjobs are off the table. She dislikes them. A fun and reasonably frequent sex life is however a perfectly acceptable requirement for the marriage to continue.


Now, some people might find it petty and ridiculous, but if the expectation was set that they would be on the table after marriage, is it unfair to expect a bj on occasion?



MEM11363 said:


> If you need some help defining a plan, just ask.


Bringing out her best sounds good. Is this where insisting on counseling comes in?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Too

In theory she should honor the promises she made before marriage. 

In practice the best window for you to enforce that was before she got pregnant with your first child. You didn't. 

I admit to being confused. You only have sex 2/month. Why aren't you focusing on frequency? Is she just lying there and letting you do all the work? If so, THAT is a valid issue. 

Focusing on bj's will make your sex life one big power struggle. If instead you focus on frequency and a mutually positive quality experience, you'll likely see real progress. 

As far as counseling goes, sure you can insist on it. 

As far as using counseling to brow beat her about her lack of BJ's I think your odds of success are low. 

However, using counseling to say: I'm disappointed but willing to let go of the bj thing. I am NOT however going to let go of a good sex life. 




TooSexy said:


> Actually, I'm not sure that I've heard that. I have several friends who have cheated and/or gone through ugly divorces.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TooSexy (May 15, 2015)

Quality and quantity are both issues which need to be addressed. Consistently pushing for an earlier bedtime might help with both, but we have other issues to work through as well. Thanks.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If she refuses to go to counseling, the odds of getting the marriage to the point where you are happy, are very very low. 






TooSexy said:


> Quality and quantity are both issues which need to be addressed. Consistently pushing for an earlier bedtime might help with both, but we have other issues to work through as well. Thanks.


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