# Is this verbal abuse?



## rainyday06 (Jun 1, 2013)

Hi everyone,

My husband said something hurtful to me today, and when I said I didn't find it funny, he accused me of being "too sensitive" and not being able to take a joke. He's usually an all-around nice guy, but he often complains about his life, gets angry easily (though his anger is usually not directed at me) and sometimes he swears, yells, and hits things in frustration. He can be intimidating and scary when he is like that.

Basically, my husband acts like an Adam Sandler movie character, except he's also got an angry streak. He's 41 years old.

This is the exchange that happened this morning:

Me: Writes out a check for him to help pay for our home Internet. (He works full-time; I work part-time and help pay some smaller bills).

Him: "I'm going to write in the check memo, 'For sexual favors'."

Me: "That's not funny! In what universe is that considered funny?"

Him: "It's a joke!! Geez! You're too sensitive; can't you take a joke? You know I'd never embarrass you like that; you know I wouldn't really write that on the check; I was just kidding!"

Me: "That was an awful 'joke'."

Him: "Oh, that's right; I have to remember that you don't 'get' jokes; don't worry, I won't tell you a joke ever again."

He also said something similar awhile ago; we were in bed but just cuddling, and he was starting to grope me. I said I had just wanted to cuddle and he said, "I do so much for you!" Then he yanked his hand away and wouldn't touch me at all. 

Is this behavior considered abusive? It just doesn't seem like normal to me. It doesn't happen all of the time, but maybe once every few months something I find troubling or hurtful will happen. He will always say he didn't mean it, or that I'm taking it too seriously.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I don't think he's being abusive. A little pouty, maybe, but not insensitive. 

I've actually written "for sexual favors" on a check before, and we both got a good laugh out of it. He said the teller did quite a double take when she cashed it for him! 

It honestly sounds like your husband is feeling pretty alienated from you, and based on the boundaries I'm seeing here, I'm seeing a few reasons why. It sounds like you've got your feelings and fears so huge that he can't get close to you.


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## MyrnaLoy (Apr 23, 2013)

I would have thought his joke was funny, so no, I don't think it is verbal abuse. It seems like a totally normal joke for a husband (or wife) to make.


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

The comment he made is a long way off from being abusive by any standard measure. That doesn't mean it doesn't sting or hurt - obviously it did, so it's a problem. 

I recently read the 5LL book. It sounds to me like your husband's language is probably physical touching. I'm not sure what yours is, though. Are you happy in the marriage except for these outbursts? If so, and if you want to stop the outbursts, I would try to address his issues. My suggestion (actually, 5LL's) is - give the guy what he wants. The idea being, he will reciprocate and give you what you want, since he's so happy. But you need to take the first step.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

rainyday06 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My husband said something hurtful to me today, and when I said I didn't find it funny, he accused me of being "too sensitive" and not being able to take a joke. He's usually an all-around nice guy, but he often complains about his life, gets angry easily (though his anger is usually not directed at me) and sometimes he swears, yells, and hits things in frustration. He can be intimidating and scary when he is like that.
> 
> ...


So you have no sense of humor and you like to make your man "work" for sex? Do you realize that you can cuddle much longer and passionately after some good loving? 

Next time smile at his stupid jokes and try to have sex without having to have the planets aligned on a Wednesday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rainyday06 (Jun 1, 2013)

I should add we do have sex 3-4 times per week.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with the others. Joke about writing "for sexual favors" on the check as funny.

You put him down for making a joke that most people would find funny. Then you get upset because he says you don't have a sense of humor? Lighten up. Humor is good for a marriage. 

If this is the worst thing going on in your marriage you are a blessed woman.

How often do you initiate sex?

How often do you turn him down?


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

rainyday06 said:


> I should add we do have sex 3-4 times per week.


That's a pretty good rate. But, there's some kind of problem going on somewhere, otherwise you wouldn't be posting. Why did the "joke" bother you? I don't really see the humor myself, but it wouldn't occur to me that it's abusive.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

There's a good chance I would have reacted like your husband.

Stupid jokes and banal fun are part of successfully living in the same house as another person for decades. 

Loosen up a little.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Rainy, FWIW, this sounds awfully familiar to me. Your husbands jokes and advances are hurtful to you. Your reactions to them are hurtful to him. 

These are the kinds of exchanges I used to have with my wife. I am now going through a divorce because she says I verbally abused her for a period of about 4 years. I was shocked as I had no idea she felt that way. There are obviously other contributing factors but this is the reason she always gives. 

Your opinions are yours and his are his. Don't sweep it under a rug. You two need to address it and work it out.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Not abusive


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

And for the record, it's not abuse.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I grew up being teased horribly by my abusive father and his 6 brothers. I was the brunt of many jokes. With therapy I've gotten better but as a general rule I don't like to be teased or made fun of. I don't get most jokes and yes I tend to be serious.

That said I wouldn't like what your husband did either. But my husband knows this about me and I've respectfully asked him not to tease me. I don't like it and he understands.

I don't consider it abuse though.

What I would suggest to you is you need to learn to tell him how you feel without putting him down in the process. "That is an awful joke" is a shaming statement. It puts your husband on the defense. Try I statements with feeling words instead.


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## rainyday06 (Jun 1, 2013)

Ok, so I've been looking online and apparently this 'for sexual favors' check-writing thing is a 'gag' some people do just to be funny. I admit that I hadn't heard of doing that before, which is part of the reason I took immediate offense to it. 

That said, though, we do have communication issues in our marriage, which is also part of the reason I took it to heart instead of as something 'funny'. We don't have an 'easy' sort of humor with each other anymore. I /do/ have a sense of humor, but with this issue, I resented the implication that my doing a basic chore, like helping with the bills, was being held over my head as a 'you owe me' kind of thing with sex, since we have sex frequently as it is. 

I just don't appreciate 'jokes' that basically turn me into a sexual object. Also, he doesn't seem to care if it upsets me. He'd call me "uptight" and "humorless" right now, and maybe he's right. It seems if my feelings get hurt, it's my fault. He wouldn't take responsibility for the fact that something he said, even if well-intentioned, rubbed me the wrong way. He'd just say, "I'm never going to tell you a joke again" and so this all becomes my fault.

Also: This might be something he grew up with, but one time he was teasing me when his parents were around, and after it went on and on, his own mother finally said, "Joe, stop it, that's enough now." He said, "But it's funny!" 

And yes, I am fairly reserved and serious (as if you couldn't tell lol).


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I grew up being teased horribly by my abusive father and his 6 brothers. I was the brunt of many jokes. With therapy I've gotten better but as a general rule I don't like to be teased or made fun of. I don't get most jokes and yes I tend to be serious.


You would absolutely and without a doubt hate living with me. I can't imagine a life where a spouse can't poke a little fun at their SO from time to time.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

rainyday06 said:


> Ok, so I've been looking online and apparently this 'for sexual favors' check-writing thing is a 'gag' some people do just to be funny. I admit that I hadn't heard of doing that before, which is part of the reason I took immediate offense to it.


Really? Not having heard of something before and your immediate reaction is to take offense? It's only slightly funny because other people have tried it in the past?

I call bull****. 

Does talk of sexuality in general offend you?


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

This sounds like a sex issue more than an issue of abuse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

rainyday06 said:


> Ok, so I've been looking online and apparently this 'for sexual favors' check-writing thing is a 'gag' some people do just to be funny. I admit that I hadn't heard of doing that before, which is part of the reason I took immediate offense to it.
> 
> That said, though, we do have communication issues in our marriage, which is also part of the reason I took it to heart instead of as something 'funny'. We don't have an 'easy' sort of humor with each other anymore. I /do/ have a sense of humor, but with this issue, I resented the implication that my doing a basic chore, like helping with the bills, was being held over my head as a 'you owe me' kind of thing with sex, since we have sex frequently as it is.
> 
> I just don't appreciate 'jokes' that basically turn me into a sexual object. Also, he doesn't seem to care if it upsets me. He'd call me "uptight" and "humorless" right now, and maybe he's right. It seems if my feelings get hurt, it's my fault. He wouldn't take responsibility for the fact that something he said, even if well-intentioned, rubbed me the wrong way. He'd just say, "I'm never going to tell you a joke again" and so this all becomes my fault.


It’s curious that you took his joke as turning you into a sex object. I assume that the check was from you personal bank account to him. So if you wanted to take the comment on a personal level, it would be about you paying him for sex. Seems to me that would make him the sex object, not you.

I do think that he did not mean it that way but instead had heard somewhere of how people are writing funny things on their check memos.

While I really do not think that he was being abusive I think that this incident has brought out some problems that exist in your marriage. 1) That the two of you have lost the ability to community with ease and humor. 2) You have a problem with your sex life and he is feeling rejected by you.

Would this be a good assessment?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Cletus said:


> You would absolutely and without a doubt hate living with me. I can't imagine a life where a spouse can't poke a little fun at their SO from time to time.


Lol I didn't say he couldn't poke fun at me from time to time. It took therapy to teach me to lighten up. I can be teased now but moderation is key. If he poked fun at me every day it would be too much. I readily admit to being too sensitive. I'm working on it.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

rainyday06 said:


> Ok, so I've been looking online and apparently this 'for sexual favors' check-writing thing is a 'gag' some people do just to be funny. I admit that I hadn't heard of doing that before, which is part of the reason I took immediate offense to it.


Why would you need to have heard of it before? It's not like there is a standard list of what jokes are acceptable and which ones are not. 



> I just don't appreciate 'jokes' that basically turn me into a sexual object.


OMG!! Keep in mind that without dirty jokes, the world would lose a wealth of humor. 



> Also, he doesn't seem to care if it upsets me. He'd call me "uptight" and "humorless" right now, and maybe he's right.


And I agree. It's time for you to lighten up, stop getting so defensive and stop taking jokes so personally.


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## rainyday06 (Jun 1, 2013)

To address a previous message, talk of sexuality doesn't offend me; I'm not a prude. In fact, I write erotic literature for fun. My issue with this check-writing thing was that it was directed at me specifically, and (to me) it echoed the 'you owe me' content of previous conversations we've had regarding doing household chores/paying bills and the amount of times we have sex per week. He likes to schedule sex. If we ever deviate from the schedule (for example, if I'm too tired one night and ask if we could wait until the following night) he gets upset and says things like, "Fine, I'll never ask you have have sex again" and "I'm always in the mood; I'd have to be on my deathbed not to be."


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

rainyday06 said:


> Ok, so I've been looking online and apparently this 'for sexual favors' check-writing thing is a 'gag' some people do just to be funny. I admit that I hadn't heard of doing that before, which is part of the reason I took immediate offense to it.
> 
> That said, though, we do have communication issues in our marriage, which is also part of the reason I took it to heart instead of as something 'funny'. We don't have an 'easy' sort of humor with each other anymore. I /do/ have a sense of humor, but with this issue, I resented the implication that my doing a basic chore, like helping with the bills, was being held over my head as a 'you owe me' kind of thing with sex, since we have sex frequently as it is.
> 
> ...


It's amazing - this totally resembles exchanges between my wife and myself. She's also very serious (which can be a good thing, especially at work) and not really into joking around. Also, she doesn't like references to sex or objectifying her in any way. She does have a temper though, and she will lash out, so I have basically laid off poking fun at her. 

But I understand where you're coming from, though. I don't like to be made fun of either. There are a lot of people who can dish it out, but can't take it. He should really lay off the making fun of you, since it bothers you. Otoh, although having sex 3-4 times a week probably seems like a lot to you, to him, maybe not so much. Just guessing.


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## rainyday06 (Jun 1, 2013)

Jack99 said:


> It's amazing - this totally resembles exchanges between my wife and myself. She very serious and not really into joking around. Also, she doesn't like references to sex or objectifying her in any way. She does have a temper though, and she will lash out, so I have basically laid off poking fun at her.
> 
> But I understand where you're coming from, though. I don't like to be made fun of either. There are a lot of people who can dish it out, but can't take it. He should really lay off the making fun of you, since it bothers you. Otoh, although 3-4 times a week probably seems like a lot to you, to him, maybe not so much. Just guessing.


He has a very high sex drive; he said he could do it every day. Mine is much lower. The ironic thing is, before he met me, he said he never pleasured himself (he grew up in a very conservative Catholic family), whereas I discovered that at age 9. We were each other's first significant relationship and we lost our virginity to each other. 

He makes fun of me about other things that I don't mind as much. But with this issue, even though he told me it was a joke, it didn't sound like a joke when he said it. He wasn't being light-hearted or laughing. It sounded like he had an expectation (again, based on previous conversations about this issue). 

As for temper, my husband has an explosive one, and blows up (yelling, swearing, pulling at his hair, slamming his fists onto tables, etc), whenever something around the house breaks or a big bill comes in the mail. One time, he did it outside and scared some kids playing in a nearby yard. 

I grew up in a quiet family, and I still don't yell, but when I do get upset, he cowers like a child and says, "Please don't yell at me! I don't like it!"

Another thing that happened recently was that we were driving and I was expressing worry about visiting his family for the weekend, since everyone had been sick with the flu. We were only about 4 miles into our trip. I asked if we might consider re-scheduling the visit. Without warning, he slammed on the brakes, yanked the car to the shoulder, and yelled, 'What do you want me to do?? To just go home?!' When I told him we could continue on, he pulled back onto the road again. His mouth was set in a firm line and he was glaring. Normally a very cautious driver, he sped up when he realized a car was trying to pass us, and shook his fist at the (closed) window and yelled, "You *******! I hope you get into an accident!' Then, when the car had passed us, he sped up again to tail it for awhile, until I could feel the tension leave his body, and then he slowed down to the speed limit again and continued like normal the rest of the way there.

Our relationship is very...fraught.


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## Jack99 (Nov 21, 2010)

It's starting to come clearer now. You don't want to have sex as much as he does. So his "jokes" about sex aren't funny to you at all - you're interpreting them as his requests/demand for more sex, which in fact they are. Even if they were funny, the underlying theme takes the humor out of it for you. 

Also, it's interesting to me that you say he "cowers like a child." Is it really that bad? You make it sound like he's feeble-minded or something. 

It also seems incongruent that you like erotic literature but you say you have a low sex drive. I'd be interested how that works.

Overall, though, it seems he desires more sex, isn't getting it, and is unhappy about it. Also, the fact that he works full-time and you only part probably has something to do with him thinking "I work hard, she only works part time, she has the easy life, why won't she just have sex with me whenever I want?" I know I've thought this probably a thousand times, since my wife only works part-time. 

And so, the question is, are you interested in improving the relationship? If so, I think you're going to have to give in to his sexual demands. 

If you don't think the marriage is worth saving (consider your characterization of him as a cowardly child), I would suggest doing you both a favor and ending it before you have kids.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

rainyday06 said:


> To address a previous message, talk of sexuality doesn't offend me; I'm not a prude. In fact, I write erotic literature for fun."


So the problem isn't the joke so much as the context behind it. In that case, it sounds like you should be listening to ElleGirl and others in sorting out the real problem.

BTW - even in context, it's still not abuse. But that's not your real problem anyway.


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## rainyday06 (Jun 1, 2013)

Thanks all for helping me see what the root of this is. We have had long-standing issues in our marriage, apart from this issue, for a long time. 

As for the childish behavior, I'm not exaggerating: For as nervous as I get when he goes into a temper outburst, swearing, kicking things around, slamming his fists onto things, etc., he turns very meek and seems intimidated by me barely raising my voice when I feel displeasure at something and am direct and forceful in my tone (usually, I am more passive). He says, "Just please don't yell at me!" in a whiny voice. He will justify his own rages as needing to "get the anger out or I'll explode" but can't handle me raising my voice slightly to him.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I'll take it a step deeper then Cletus and say that there are underlying motives that are causing problems rather than the context of the jokes or anything else. 

The very basic issue is that Rainy and her husband don't feel safe with each other. When he makes a joke that falls flat, or worse, it hurts him. When he expresses displeasure, she feels threatened. 

With his all-or-nothing thinking, it's going to be very hard for Rainy to make the kinds of changes she'll need to make in order to bolster him, but if she doesn't make those changes, it will lead to more of his pouty, sulky, critical behavior. Ugly cycle to be in!! 

Rainy, you started this thread asking, "Is this abuse?" and everyone has said, no, that joke wasn't an example of abuse. But in a later post, you said that he has an explosive temper that has scared neighborhood kids, that he's slammed his fists on the table, and being generally dramatic. When he does these things, is it something that happens when he's trying to force someone to do things his way, or is this his general way of expressing frustration? You said it happens over bills or broken objects, but you didn't say that he does it to intimidate people. That's an important line between someone being abusive or not. 

If you'd like your marriage to improve, you'll need to ask yourself if you're willing to step outside of your comfort zone. I've had to do this, and believe me, it's not easy! We all have our own way of seeing the world, and I used to see things a lot like you are. I'd have felt my husband was being unfair and manipulative if he'd done the things your husband has done. Today, I realize that that's just part of what makes my husband human. I regret the times I've been harsh and judgmental about past partners who weren't being abusive but I accused them of being so. I was quite the feminist, and had been raised to think much of what is "normal" was bad and sexist. I was wrong about so many things.

Having said that, though, he's out of line when he says, "I'll never XYZ again." Hopefully you'll be able to recognize that he has NO intention of following through on these threats. He's really saying, "I feel powerless and I hate it and want it to change right now!" 

Finally, you gave an example about when you were driving to visit relatives who had been sick with the flu. Even though you were simply feeling anxious and you weren't trying to upset him, consider this from his perspective for a moment. His goal is already set in his mind, and he's already on the way there, when you raise the possibility of rescheduling. He is immediately frustrated because it's a wrench in his plans, and he doesn't understand why you didn't say something before you climbed into the car. He realizes that there's not much point in continuing to drive if you're not going to go, but he doesn't plan on making a phone call and he doesn't see you doing it. So he has this uncertainty about what will happen next. Men do not cope well with uncertainty, especially in the midst of the action. If you can learn to avoid bringing uncertainty to him, it would help him feel safer too.


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## rainyday06 (Jun 1, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> I'll take it a step deeper then Cletus and say that there are underlying motives that are causing problems rather than the context of the jokes or anything else.
> 
> The very basic issue is that Rainy and her husband don't feel safe with each other. When he makes a joke that falls flat, or worse, it hurts him. When he expresses displeasure, she feels threatened.
> 
> ...


Kathy, Thank you for your insightful post. It gave me a lot to think about with respect to this situation. I'd just like to take the time to respond to some of the points you made:

1. _'The very basic issue is that Rainy and her husband don't feel safe with each other.'_ 

Yes, I think this is the heart of the matter. 

2. _'With his all-or-nothing thinking, it's going to be very hard for Rainy to make the kinds of changes she'll need to make in order to bolster him, but if she doesn't make those changes, it will lead to more of his pouty, sulky, critical behavior. Ugly cycle to be in!! _'

Indeed, 'all-or-nothing thinking' is exactly the way he operates. This is why he'll make comments like, "I'll never do 'XYZ' again. The thing is, I don't speak in ultimatums. I don't say anything of the sort, and yet, when I point that out, he says, "Well, you implied it!" I said, "No, I didn't." We go around in circles like this often. He seems to want me to feel sympathy for him, but I can hardly do that when he's deliberately twisting my words.

Also, why is it only up to me to 'bolster' him? What about him putting in some effort on my behalf? I'm not the one who goes into sulky, critical, manipulative moods. Why should I placate his behavior? It's clear he's trying to get a reaction out of me, and it's also clear that he can't stand being in any way at fault. He won't 'own up' to the moody, angry behavior, other than to say he has this need to "get it all out". Well, I get angry, too, but I possess something called self-control. If I can do it, why can't he at least try? Especially if he knows it bothers me when he gets out of control?

4._Having said that, though, he's out of line when he says, "I'll never XYZ again." Hopefully you'll be able to recognize that he has NO intention of following through on these threats. He's really saying, "I feel powerless and I hate it and want it to change right now!"_

Agree with you that he was out of line here, because this is clearly manipulative behavior, and speaking in absolutes in order to make a point; essentially, he's putting words in my mouth. But here's what I don't understand: Why is it ok to behave in this manner if he has no intention of following through? Does that excuse it? Why not be direct and simply say he feels powerless, hates it, and wants a change right now? At least that would be honest. Instead, he's turning me into the 'bad guy' and I'm left feeling guilty --and it's about something I never even implied, let alone stated. How is this ok behavior to exhibit to your spouse?

5. 'He is immediately frustrated because it's a wrench in his plans, and he doesn't understand why you didn't say something before you climbed into the car. '[/I]

Actually, I did say something before we got in the car. His mother had called us at home to tell us everyone was sick. My husband immediately responded: 'So, we can still come visit you, right?' He wanted to go because some of his siblings were there, and they live across the country, so he doesn't see them often. By contrast, my immediate family is only a few miles away from us. After he hung up, I expressed concern and he said that, since his mom said it was ok for us to go, that he wanted to go. I continued to express concern while we were in the car, and that's what finally drove him to pull the car over to the side of the road as if I was a misbehaving child (as it happened, we both came down with stomach flu the night we returned home, and then he did apologize for insisting we go). 

I do agree that I need to make an effort to make him feel more safe by not creating uncertainty, and I can definitely work on that. Yet, I don't know why I should be expected to do all of this and justify what I see is at the very least as emotionally manipulative behavior. I'm not the one having temper outbursts and scaring my spouse, wondering when that anger will turn toward me. Instead, I'm thinking: 'What if we have kids someday and they see some of their dad's anger? If it scares me, an adult--imagine how it would make them feel?' 

Speaking of anger turning toward me, it has a few times: Once, we got into an argument at night, after we had both gone to bed. He got up and went to the back door and stood there, and said maybe it would be easier if he just ended his life. I ran over to him and tried to get him to come back to bed, and he didn't move, but stayed rooted to the spot. Finally, after about 10 minutes of me asking him to please come back to bed, he made me almost drag him back to the bedroom. 

Another time, we were on lunch break at home (for awhile, we both worked at the same office). We were having leftovers and he had heated his food up in the microwave and was ready to eat. Meanwhile, I had put mine in the oven instead, and so had to wait a bit longer. I went into the living room briefly to e-mail someone. My husband got mad and stormed down to the basement, yelling and kicking stuff around. My food was ready about 10 minutes later, and I took it out of the oven and went to the table to eat, while he continued to rant and rave downstairs. Finally, he came back upstairs again and stayed in the kitchen, not bothering to come into the dining room. Later, he said, "I know where I rank" and said that he thought my friend I was e-mailing was more important than he was. I said I was just waiting for my food to heat up, and if he had stayed upstairs, we could have eaten together. 

So, those are just some other examples of behavior I have witnessed over the past few months.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

rainyday06 said:


> Indeed, 'all-or-nothing thinking' is exactly the way he operates. This is why he'll make comments like, "I'll never do 'XYZ' again. The thing is, I don't speak in ultimatums. I don't say anything of the sort, and yet, when I point that out, he says, "Well, you implied it!" I said, "No, I didn't." We go around in circles like this often. He seems to want me to feel sympathy for him, but I can hardly do that when he's deliberately twisting my words.
> 
> *He "hears" an ultimatum even if you don't speak with one because that's how he thinks. It's not that he's deliberately twisting your words... he simply has a filter between his ears and his brain that interprets the meaning of what you've said in a way that he understands.*
> 
> ...


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## rainyday06 (Jun 1, 2013)

Thanks for replying; I have a lot of thinking to do. Your responses are giving me an entirely different framework to consider. I will read more about passive-aggressive behavior, as well.


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