# How long can you stand with no ground beneath your feet?



## picket fences (Mar 22, 2010)

Hey there. I posted my story ( in a nutshell ) in a previous thread entitled "How on earth did I ever end up here?" - in the interest of brevity, I'll refer you there for the backstory 

....So, since my original post, a few things have happened and I'm wondering WHAT ON EARTH to think, and, as the title of this post suggests, how long can one live with complete uncertainty?

It's been about 3.5 weeks since my husband told me he was leaving that his decision was final. This was the story for about a week. He took all the blame on himself, and I went right along with that and blamed him too, and played the victim.

After a few personal crises (financial and paternal), he decided about two weeks ago that there was a "glimmer of hope" and that he would stay in the home while we did some counselling, and he would figure out whether he thought it was possible to make this work. He was VERY clear that he had not changed his mind about leaving; but rather, that he was willing to wait and put his plan on "hold" to see whether he _would_ change his mind.

I found an excellent counsellor and we have been to see her once, with another appointment scheduled for tomorrow. We aren't fighting or anything, in fact H and I agree that since he told me he was leaving, we have actually experienced more closeness, intimacy, and honesty than we have had in years. 

A very important fact is this: That him telling me that he was willing to stay to see IF he would change his mind, caused almost as much anxiety in me as his initial decision to leave did, and as I kind of explored that and where it was coming from, I was able to come to terms with a lot of things about myself that I was unable/unwilling to see for the nearly 14 years of our relationship. I have realized that due to a bunch of baggage from the past (anyone else here an ACoA?), I have some big problems with intimacy, vulnerability, honesty, trust - that SERIOUSLY damaged our ability to have a good relationship. What I thought was "good" was completely surface-level and did not meet his needs, or quite frankly my own, either. I know that now, and I've been doing a lot of soul-searching and research and have sought out personal counselling to figure myself out and get healthier, with or without him. I have been open with H about all of this and have acknowledged that while he is the one wanting to leave, I am not blameless in the situation and have hurt him a lot over the years, which has greatly contributed to his decision.

...So...this brings us to the current situation. For two weeks now, H has been in the house, he's moved to the couch in terms of sleeping quarters but life has been going on as normal other than that. I am off work on a 6-week stress leave as of 2 weeks ago due to this situation, so I'm home during the day and in addition to *actually* getting the laundry and cleaning done for once, I've also been doing a lot of work on me and figuring out what I want in life, what I want in marriage, what I need to do differently in order to achieve it, etc. I know for certain that I *WANT* my husband - a big development, since there were a few days where I feared that maybe I just wanted stability and familiarity and was too scared to look at any other possibility. But I have figured that out for sure.

In this same two weeks, I feel like H has moved nowhere. He treats me well, he's a great dad (as always, there's no question there), we hang out together watching movies and puttering around the house as normal, etc. He's actually showed a lot of interest in me sexually, which I have enjoyed and reciprocated, so we've even had sex several times. H talks about plans for the house and the yard and the coming summer as though he's going to be part of them. So, in the absence of any indicators to the contrary, I've been thinking and feeling that he has been leaning toward staying and working things out rather than leaving. But I knew that until he SAID that out loud, I was still on tenterhooks.

Then, today, H tells me that while he is enjoying this time with me and he genuinely appreciates the insight I've made into me and the changes I'm beginning to make, his long-term plans and perspective on our relationship have not changed, and he still feels he needs to leave. I challenged him on his recent behaviour seeming to indicate otherwise (particularly the sex part), and also on how much time he expects it to take for him to figure out *IF* he is going to put effort into making this work? His answers were that 1) It was my own choice to sleep with him, he made no promises and does not feel as though he has 'led me on'; and 2) he doesn't know how long it will take him to figure out his next step because this is confusing and difficult. UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR.

Is he being fair? What is going on here? I love him and I want to be honest and fair by owning what I own in the breakdown of our relationship, but how can I do that and at the same time hold him responsible for what HE's doing now? I'm terrified of pushing him or challenging him further because I'm afraid that will make him say "Fine, you want a decision? I'm leaving, see ya". I'm TERRIFIED of that.

AArrgh! I really feel like there is no right answer, but I just don't feel like I can take much more of this no-man's-land. Anyone else been here? What do I do? 

(p.s. I don't need to hear the "no more sex" bit. I've learned that the hard way. )


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh on the contrary--you are two consenting, married adults. If you want to have sex, I say go for it. It's the only instance in which sex is not only okay--it's blessed! Just go for it with the understanding that it is not making love...and make your decision based on whether or not you feel like an orgasm, not based on whether or not you want the deeply intimate connection of emotional and physical connection. See what I mean? 

With regards to him being unsure... to a degree this is "to be expected." I'm going to respect you by telling you the truth and it may hurt a little, so are you ready? 


...

Okay for 14 years things have occurred that hurt your husband. I'm not saying he's blameless! Just that you are beginning to see that for 14 years things about you that you refused to face were slowly eroding the love he felt for you. Now that the fire is more or less almost put out, you say "Oh I get it now!" and he says "Yeah...let's see about that." So in a way it's to be expected that he'd be a little reticent. I would propose that you make a suggestion to him though--something like this: 

"I'm hurt that you still feel the need to leave, as I had hoped some of my self-realizations might make a difference. In addition I had hoped that maybe some of what I'm learning might help open your eyes to some of the hurtful things you are doing and have done to me so that we could work on changes together and make our marriage more loving for both of us. You see, due to my changes, I'm no longer willing to be in a marriage that is one-sided, and I know that I want a partner who loves me and is just crazy about me too! So I propose that we continue as we are to conserve finances, and I'll let you know when or if I'm willing to have you back in my bed."

   

The idea here is two-fold. 1) As long as he is in the home--even if he's on the couch--that does give you the opportunity to avoid Love Extinquishers and add Love Kindlers, so having him at home, even on the couch is okay and will prove to him you're serious. 2) As long as he pulls this baloney you are absolutely within your right to decide if you want to accept it in your life or not.  No it's not a threat or meant as a bluff...just the truth! Because you are a smart, loving, wonderful woman so why should your partner expect YOU to change and do nothing to change himself or love you back? 

It's not a guarantee, but there is a good likelihood that if you continue your growth and marriage counseling, that he will also begin some growing too (but he may resist some like you did). So suggest having him stay at home on the couch or in a guest bedroom--so far that's sort of been working and it does have financial benefit AND he would have access to the kids every night--and continue as you are. 

And just to double check, be a little cautious and be sure he's not seeing someone else on the side.


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

HI,

You are only one session into counseling. If H said he wants to leave... then obviously it got pretty bad. Blame doesnt matter... even IF it were 100%your "fault... you both had the responsibility to stay closer and work on this stuff before he said ... "im out". 

My response to this? Patience!!!!!
Basically he could be VERY apprehensive too, not wanting to show you too much, to hurt you until he thinks those feelings are coming back. I know it suck but thats the deal... it wont go from broke to fixed in short order and you cant see the future.

You cant demand an answer because it seems he doesnt "feel it" but wants to. Stick with the counseling. Stay well below the surface. If this counselor is good, he/she will help you do that. Superficial things (which most of us fight about) really mean little and are only potential clues.

anyway... thats my two cents. take it as it comes IF you're commited to play it out and see if you still have a future.
You dont need to know the future. You're life "situation" is not as you want right now. but based on what you wrote it hasnt been for a long time. NOW you're both focused on that and the potential for it to be better.. .is better than ever.!

good luck....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He was having an emotional affair with a coworker. He may STILL be having an affair with her. 

As long as his thinking includes the fact that he has now found another woman desirable besides you, he will likely NOT put any effort into learning to love you again.

I wouldn't waste time on whether to stay or not until you have that issue resolved.


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## picket fences (Mar 22, 2010)

AC - Thanks for the perspective, it's helpful. I realize that years of damage aren't repaired overnight, and I need to keep my expectations realistic and keep working on "me", instead of pushing him - symptoms of some control issues I have also had over the years, I guess (I'm just a bag o' laughs, aren't I!).
Also to you, 63Vino - I know I need to learn patience. Everything I read talks about just "being where you are", being in the moment, etc, and I see the wisdom in that. It's just ridiculously hard when your entire life, as you know it, is on the line. I do genuinely feel like I'm trying to stand up with no ground beneath me. 

Do I make plans for tomorrow? Next week? Next month? When my 5-yr-old asks me about trips for the summer, do I pretend like everything's going to be normal, since it MIGHT be, or do I deflect the question in order not to make promises I can't keep? My kids don't know what's going on, but they are definitely feeling it, and not a night goes by that each of them doesn't wake up and come into my room for comfort - something they haven't done for a very long time.

H says to me yesterday, "I have to be away for work from May xx to May xx, so I won't be home." Then he thinks for a moment and adds, "but maybe that won't be relevant anymore by then" - the implication being that maybe he'll have left and be out of the house anyway, so it won't matter to me if he's away. 

We got our tax return recently, and we had planned to use it to pay off some credit card debt we had accumulated. I was going to do that this weekend, but H says we should "hold on to it" , since he'll need it as start-up money in case he does get his own place. Practically, that makes sense -the reality is that we absolutely cannot afford for him to live separately and if that ends up being his decision, he'll need some cash to start out with and we'll just be in debt longer. BUT- where does it put me and our relationship - in an indefinite holding pattern? How does a person live like that?

Aargh- this is so hard! It feels like I'm supposed to be occupying two places at the same time. The laws of physics dictate that we can only be in one place at a time. Trying to split myself is painful and messy, and then I can't be either person very succesfully. 

H is encouraging me not to "mislead myself" and not to let the "glimmer" of hope he's allowing become a "beacon" in my mind - so that I don't get hurt worse. So, I should be planning to be on my own, developing more independence (a good goal in any event, but we're talking complete independence here!), not chatting over decisions with him but just making them on my own, etc. But, on the other hand, there IS that glimmer of hope, and I don't want to extinguish it by not taking any action! I want to know what it is I can do to demonstrate my committment to him, to this marriage, and to becoming a healthier, more whole person - but he's holding all his cards very close to his chest and not letting me in on anything.

I know that the best thing I can do right now is just to make the changes in ME that I need to make, regardless of whether I am married to him or not. I know that will make me a healthier, happier, more resilient person in the end. I know that I need to be patient. But HOW?? 

My job is sensitive and requires that I not be completely stressed and in crisis myself, in order to perform my duties properly, so I'm on stress leave. I only have 4 weeks of leave left until my pay begins to be cut significantly, and we simply can't afford that - I feel like there's this "deadline" and time is running out and nothing is moving, and it is completely and totally out of my control. I'm at a loss.

Whew. I guess I'm just venting again. I also can see that I am trying to take more control of this than is mine to take, but it's not healthy to lose all control either, is it? And to add an additional stressor, everywhere I turn, people question the infidelity thing - "does he have someone else?". I am SURE that he is not currently having an affair with anyone because he just goes to work and comes home, he is not on the phone, we are both Luddites to some degree and don't even know HOW to text and he doesn't even own a cell phone so there's nothing that could be happening behind my back. However, this question coming up over and over makes me nervous about the importance of this brief "connection" he did have with a co-worker, and while I'm confident that they are not having any ongoing relationship, I wonder how much he know feels like he's had "proof" that there are better things out there for him, so he'll have less motivation to work on this marriage. And that's another thing thats completely out of my control.

Well, thanks for listening (reading), and any further comments/advice/questions are more than welcome


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you doing any talking about what he felt when he was having this affair? Maybe if you shared that conversation with him it might help him see you can be part of his life.

Go to marriagebuilders.com and print out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires. Ask him to fill them out. Tell him it's not so you can change his mind, but for your own peace of mind so you'll know where things went wrong. Once you have that data, though, you can see what you can change about yourself so that staying at home becomes more appealing to him.


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## picket fences (Mar 22, 2010)

Aaack! I just wrote a HUGE post that got zapped by my computer because apparently "internet explorer encountered a problem" and shut down before I could hit "post". I do not have the emotional energy to re-create the post as it was, so I am going to try my best to summarize because I really need some feedback. Here are the coles' notes:

-H and I have had a terrible week since my last post
-One counselling session that was good, yet somehow unproductive

-No progression - none - on the uncertainty aspect, still. We're standing at a solid month here with me hanging by a thread, a thread that appears thicker at times and thinner at others, but I realize that's just because I'm constantly spinning and the thread bulks up when it's wound tight upon itself - good metaphor, no?

-I recognize that I have not been able to give H the space he needs to figure things out. I have tried to work on myself in that area, but it is so hard since we're still living together and sharing all the household and childcare tasks, so when he's not at work we're both just HERE, and I struggle with not taking every available opportunity to barrage him with my thoughts, feelings, etc on all this
-I tried to mitigate this by having him do the Emotional Needs questionnaire from marriagebuilders.com that everyone always suggests. Said to him (and to myself) that this will give me concrete stuff to think about and work on without always having to "smother" him. To my great surprise, H agreed to do the questionnaire.

-Complete crisis again. H does the questionnaire - in 10 minutes flat, not appearing to take it real seriously - and has rated my ability to meet his emotional needs as a negative value on every single factor, even the few where I genuinely believed there was no problem e.g., "attractiveness". 
-In fact, his response to the "attractiveness" question revealed to me a pattern that I then discovered throughout the whole questionnaire: that I have been consistenly compared to - and found wanting in comparison - to S, whom he had the EA with.
-I point this out to H. He denies it. I, regretfully, react badly. I tell H to just F*** Off and take up with S, as it is clear that is who he wants. H responds by saying I'm being ridiculous, as S is married. I tell him, pointedly, "So Are You". I push H to the point that he ends up, in a heated discussion, saying that if S's marriage crashed and burned, then yes, he likely would want to pursue her. I feel like I die on the spot.
-Some time later, H apologizes for saying that and for hurting me by having the relationship with S at all, yet there is a big "Sorry...BUT..." feeling to it. As in, "I'm sorry for this, BUT if you had been the wife I needed I would not have done it". Maybe that's fair, but yet it just doesn't feel right.

-Week of terribleness ensues - feel sick to my stomach constantly - don't know where I stand - on the one hand, I feel as though I have heard clearly from H that he has made his decision and has no hope at all for us; however, he has not actually said those words, and makes no moves toward putting in a plan to actually leave. I'm afraid to ask him where his stands, for fear that my question itself will be what pushes him over the line in the end.

-Later in the week - H goes out for drinks with friends from work, does't come home for supper with the children even though he says he's going to. S is one of the friends he went out with. I dissolve into tears, tell H that I can't handle him still seeing her in any capacity while he's still here and saying that he's undecided; I tell him I fear that having her in his life in any capacity right now is blocking him from dealing with the "US" issue that should be the priority, regardless of what the resolution ends up being.
-H does not take this well, states that he needs his friends right now and will not stop going out with them just because I'm uncomfortable with it; says that I'm making altogether too big a deal out of the situation with S; states that the actual problems that have existed that are making him want to end our marriage were there long, long before the relationship with S and that the relationship with S really was just the catalyst to open his eyes and show him that there were important things that he was missing in life with me.

-H goes out again on Sat night with generally the same group of friends - except they all bring their spouses, S included. H walks home early from what was planned to be a late night out drinking; states he just didn't want to be there; he just felt uncomfortable and lonely, being the single one among all the couples; it just didn't feel right. 

-H treats me more like he used to again on Sunday, he actually makes things feel almost normal, which is weird because no matter where we stand right now, facts are that things are not "normal". And I love it with one part of me; and can't trust it, with another part of me. I suspect everything now - did he just come home early on Sat. because he could not handle the awkwardness of being with S AND her husband together? Was he unable to tolerate seeing the woman that he has idealized along with her actual husband, because this drove home the reality that he could not have that ideal?

-Or, like H continues to assert, am I going NUTS and making WAY too big a deal out of the whole EA thing, and "missing the forest for the trees", so to speak?

I don't know what's true. I don't know what to think. I know that I've done a lot of emotional damage - more than I can account for - to H, over the years. I know that I did not mean to, and I did not know I was doing it, and in all honesty- with God as my witness- I DID NOT KNOW HOW to do anything else. BUT....I know that those factors don't change the impact I had, and the hurt that was caused, and that H is a hurt and angry man as a result.

BUT...(again)...I believe in change. I believe in redemption. I believe in forgiveness, and I can forgive H for hurts HE has caused me. I believe in the cheesy old adage, that "knowing is half the battle". I love my husband, and I know that I can meet his needs now and in the future, in ways I could not and did not before. This is not all a last-ditch effort to save my marriage or, as it's been put, a "death-bed conversion", because the changes I need to make in me in order to meet H's needs, are changes that need to be made and that WILL be made, even if H does leave me, because without these changes I am not a whole person, period. They will be genuine, because I now have no other choice - I can't go back to the old way, now that I know better.

And all I can see right now is H thinking about and dreaming about and wanting someone other than me, even if I make every change in the world and become everything I ever wasn't for him. And it is killing me, and I feel physically sick, and I feel stunted and stopped dead in my tracks from progressing any further because of this thing that has become a great big blockage for me, even if H can't acknowledge that it is one for him.

How do I get by it? How do I take the focus of the EA and put it back on the reasons we weren't healthy to begin with? I'm trying, I really am, but then I see something little - e.g, where H posts on his Facebook status that he is proud of something he accomplished at work and S hits the "like" but and gives it that little thumbs up - and I feel like I need to run to the bathroom and throw up. I just can't get past it. And I just can't even talk to H about it anymore, because it will drive him over the edge, I know that.

WHAT do I do? ....I'm lost, really and completely lost....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Warning, big 2x4's coming your way. This will hurt.

Yes, he left the party because her husband was there. He had to face the fact that HE was not the only man in her life. And it hurt.

Gee. How poetic. You should point that out to him.



> H does the questionnaire - in 10 minutes flat, not appearing to take it real seriously - and has rated my ability to meet his emotional needs as a negative value on every single factor, even the few where I genuinely believed there was no problem e.g., "attractiveness".
> -In fact, his response to the "attractiveness" question revealed to me a pattern that I then discovered throughout the whole questionnaire: that I have been consistenly compared to - and found wanting in comparison - to S, whom he had the EA with.


This is exactly what I told you would happen. As long as he has the hots for her, NOTHING you do about your relationship matters. NOTHING. Because he COMPARES you to her, just like I said he would.

That is why you EXPOSE the affair - to her husand; her parents; his parents and siblings and best friends. You need to ruin that circle of friends that enables the affair as a safe haven for him. THEY need to know so that they will be watching them, and the affair will no longer be fun.

You are kidding yourself if you're trying to say they are no longer having an affair. As long as they continue to work together and socialize together (!) the affair resumes in their MINDS every time they see each other.

Either expose the affair so you can try to fix the marriage, or kick him out. 

Or stay a doormat for the rest of your life, just to keep him there, and let him hook up with whomever he wants, once he realizes you'll allow anything just to keep him.

At this point, you are just CONVENIENT. He doesn't have to get an apartment, share kids, pay your bills...all he has to do is tell you he's 'thinking' and he gets to stay there and suffer no consequences.

Over at marriagebuilders.com, they recommend that betrayed wives NOT allow their spouse to stay in their home while uncommitted to the marriage for more than 3 months - before completely cutting him out of your life. Why? Because the emotional toll on you WILL drain you completely. I've seen women in your place consider suicide because it totally destroys them. And it sounds like you are almost there.

You need to expose the affair to try to stop it. You need to set a timeline and abide by it. You need to let him know you will NOT just sit by and watch him pine for another woman, that you deserve better than that, and if he doesn't make a decision, you want him out.


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## picket fences (Mar 22, 2010)

Turnera - I respect your input, and I give it lots of consideration while I am slowly going crazy thinking about all this. But big parts of it just don't ring true for me. I think it presupposes a lot of things, and since each person is individual and so is each relationship, I don't think you can pre-suppose much with any accuracy.

I do agree with you that this EA is definitely holding my H back from resolution. I also share your view that him having so much contact with S keeps that connection alive in his mind, even if they are not engaging in an inappropriate relationship in "real time" anymore.

But I don't agree with your advice re: exposure of the relationship. Not only do I not have the means to take it - I don't know anyone other than S's husband, it would take a lot of sleuthing and doing unethical things to find out how to contact everyone else - but I don't think the amount of damage that would do is warranted.

Despite the level of hurt I feel, I truly want to save my marriage. I do not want to take action that I am pretty sure would ruin any chance of it ever being saved. And, that being the case, I don't want to destroy someone else's marriage in the meantime. I don't know where things stand with S and her partner; I have no right to go in like a bull in a china shop and cause a lot of hurt and damage there, just because I have been hurt.

Still, I have and will continue to put thought into your advice. 

Any other perspectives out there that anyone has to share with me?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I suggest that you go to marriagebuilders.com and read up on their Infidelity topics. It talks about exposure, and why it works.

Most people think just like you, that you are being mean or vindictive or you will ruin your chances at saving your marriage. The truth is - and this is proven out in _thousands_ of saved marriages - exposing STOPS the affair, and teaches the wayward spouse how his actions affect everyone around him, and teaches him humility, which is needed to STOP being a cheater.

And here's the biggest surprise - yes, he may get mad at you for exposing (most people's biggest fear). But your marriage can survice each other's anger. It CAN'T survive a third person in your marriage. And you are seeing firsthand, for yourself, that YOU have a third person in YOUR marriage.


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