# Neglected wife, husband taken over by new hobby with female friend



## LittleRock (Oct 30, 2012)

A long post, bear with me please. In some ways it is a neglected wife's story, in other a sort of emotional affair, advice appreciated.

My husband and I have been married for 26 years. He is 56 and I am 59. We are both semi -retired .We originally met in a running club and for many years we enjoyed taking part in races. This continued until a few years ago when accumulated injuries on both sides put a stop to our running. We looked for other outlets but struggled hard to find a common hobby where our abilities and interests matched so well. 

In the end my husband, who has always had a very good singing voice, joined a local choir. I am completely unmusical but have always been interested in history and I joined a couple of local history research groups. It sort of worked, he would come on field trips with me and I would go along to his concerts and support him. However what he really wanted was to sing in a small group, one which gave recitals and entered musical competitions, as he is very competitive. He tried out several different partners but never found one he was compatible with, musically as well as personally, until a couple of years ago. Then a young woman of 28 joined the choir, he admired her voice and approached her about joining the quartet he was putting together . (The others are closer to his age. )

It soon became clear that their voices (his and hers) went together very well, they liked the same kind of music and were very compatible as personalities. They entered a few competitions, were successful and so entered some more, and so it went on. She is also very competitive. So over the last 18 months she has been constantly approaching my husband to perform at another recital or in another competition with her. She assumes he will always say yes and sadly for me, he does. Sometimes I suspect the approach has come from him.The quartet has given way to a duo. 

Not long ago I asked my husband to cut back a bit and spare some time for me but I got nowhere really. He said he needed an absorbing interest in life and singing now replaces running. He said he is not about to cut back on their partnership now that they are having success he is really enjoying. I cannot offer any sufficiently appealing alternatives it seems. 

She is not single, but in a live in relationship with her fiancé, a nice young man her own age and has been the whole time. He does not sing either and travels a lot for his work. She on the other hand has her own money and time on her hands which must be a factor in all this. It has now reached the point where she and my husband are together 6 days a week , rehearsing or performing, and I am really really fed up. 

I have tried to befriend her but she has always resisted. So I suggested I maybe come to more shows, get more involved and he said he did not want me to, it was his interest not mine.My husband says having me around at concerts upsets her because she knows I think they spend too much time together and this makes things tense. He has told me she does not like me much because she “thinks” I am overly controlling of him ie want him to spend time with me! Hello he is my husband after all. 

When we do go to concerts to watch them as two couples, her fiance talks to me politely and does not appear to notice her hostility to me. She on the other hand, just ignores both him and me and monopolises my husband to talk about nothing except their performance. I asked her fiancé how he felt about her relationship with my husband and all the time they spent together and he said he was quite comfortable with it. I think he is partly in denial. From things he has said I don’t think he knows how much time they really spend together as he is away such a lot. She does not seem to me to treat him very well. Really as a bit of a doormat. She says she has is not ready to settle down with him yet. 

So recently I approached her and asked her to see my point of view, that I wanted to spend more time with my husband. She refused to speak to me but apparently told my husband he was “mother ridden” ie I was trying to control his time. So untrue, but he seems to be so far under her spell he is inclined to believe it. I on the other hand feel she is trying to cut him off from me. He says there is an element of truth in this but it is just because she is very self centred and competitive and wants to perform a lot, and he is her singing partner of choice, so inevitably I am a bit of an obstacle to her ambitions. In spite of all this he finds her an entirely sympathetic and engaging personality. He sees no disloyalty to me in all this.

Finally, in frustration a couple of weeks ago I suggested to him that we split up and then he could sing with her whenever he liked, without me on his back. He said he did not want to split up, he was sorry he was not balancing his life and hobby well but thought I should sympathise more with his having found such a rewarding hobby. He said he would not mind if I found an equally obsessive hobby of my own, as after all this time being married, we did not need to live in each other’s pockets anymore, being more semi -detached suited him fine. He does not want a divorce or separation. He does not even want separate bedrooms. 

My husband has always been quite self centred. He has never been a man to discuss feelings and he seems to think that as there is nothing “physical” going on - she has made it clear from the outset she was not interested in him in that way, just as a singing partner - that I have no reason to feel jealous. He does not accept the concept of an emotional affair and says he thinks of her as a favorite niece and I should just find my own interests and accept the situation.

The thing is it does not suit me. While I know rationally there is nothing physical between them, there is clearly a major emotional bond which he does not see as a problem. I do. I feel jealous about all the time they spend together while I am left on my own. I have absolutely no evidence to suggest any sort of physical affair and all the time her fiancé is accommodating and unconcerned, it is hard to get any of them to take my concerns seriously. Just developing a similar interest of my own is not really the answer. I want him to spend more time with me, take more of an interest in me. Suggestions?


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

So, the short version is:

1. You are feeling neglected by your husband.
2. You requested that he spend less time on this other activity/person.
3. Your husband is unwilling to follow your request.

Have you really made it very clear how unhappy you are? If yes, how unhappy are you? Is this just irritating or is it bad enough that you wish to end things?

Have you sought out a third party to help?


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

The reason I ask is because you mention divorce but when he's unwilling to change, it became an empty threat essentially. What is your limit and what will you do if he doesn't meet that?


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## LittleRock (Oct 30, 2012)

Should just add they also exchange texts constantly


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Marriage counseling...


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Have you read the texts ? 6 days a week is a bit too much at any level.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

You're describing that your needs and his are not compatible - what are you both doing to fix that? It takes two to repair.

Do you see the texts or does he hide that? It is a bit much but if it's all out in the open, it's not likely an EA.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

sounds like an EA to me, maybe one sided though. The constant exchanging of texts screams RED FLAG. Im going to guess that your hubby is very infatuated with this woman, and it's not healthy. 

You are not happy and he knows it, yet he continues this relationship. I think it's time you sit him down and give some ultimatums.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

She already hit him with some, they were ignored as empty threats. Make the threat real to him, serve him divorce papers. He is perfectly comfortable, he wants to eat his cake now. You have no chance of finding that common interest if he's ploughing every spare minute into this other relationship. Make it very uncomfortable. make that cake bitter. What have you got to lose at this point?


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

He is ignoring the needs of his wife for his own desires, and he is allowing a young woman to disrespect you, not only to him but blatantly to your face too. He needs to be on your side, on your team, and he needs to show it.

He is playing a very dangerous game and you need to drag him kicking and screaming out of it. With force. He isn't listening to pleasant.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I think the first thing I would say to you is that a) what you are requesting is not controlling or unreasonable (controlling would be making a DEMAND; requesting shows the respect); and b) the way they are behaving by excluding you and spending so much time together is not appropriate or reasonable. Please read that sentence to yourself every time he or she tries to gaslight you into believing that "what they are doing is okay" and that you are insecure or jealous because you want to spend time with your own spouse. 

I think if it were me, I would start with a W-T-F-S kind of conversation with your spouse, and then gradually keep moving toward more and more serious consequences for his choices. 

W-T-F-S means "*W*hen you...I *T*hink...I *F*eel...*S*o I'm going to request" This kind of conversation identifies the issue or behavior (When you...), then shares with your spouse both your thoughts and your feelings, because let's face it--guys often are THINKER/logical kinds of folks and us womenz are often FEELINGS/emotional kinds of folks. If we only share our feelings chances are good they won't "get it" but sharing a thought might make a little more sense. Soooo....we cover both in the WTFS . Next this kind of conversation offers a solution that would work for you--you directly ask your spouse for what would fix it or "make it okay" with you. Then they have the chance to say they agree and will do it...or to say they disagree and make an offer that would work for them. 

In your instance a W-T-F-S might sound like this: 
_"*When* you spend 6 nights a week with another woman and exclude me from your life
I *Think* you don't love me anymore and you care more about her than me.
I *Feel* lonely because I want to be with you, sad, excluded because you keep me from being with you, and hurt because I love you and want us to be strong.
*So I'd like to request *that you make it clear to your singing partner that your loyalty lies with me, that you cut your singing activities back to 3 nights a week, and that you add the other 3 nights a week to spending time doing things with me that we both enjoy."_

This is an EXAMPLE ONLY---please word it however you want. 

Thereafter, if he is unwilling to cut back or to indicate that his loyalties lie with you and not her, I would not nag him or discuss it with him, I would just pack my things and move to another bedroom. When he's mad or whatever, just indicate that you are not okay with anything less than 100% of his affection and loyalty..and when he's willing to give you what is due to a wife, you will at that time consider moving back to the bedroom. 

If he continues, I'd set a certain time limit in your head (a month maybe?) and then again, don't nag him. Periodically ask if he's willing to give you 100% of his affection and loyalty yet. If not, after a month, just pack your things and move out. Okay...just luggage not everything you own. Move to your vacation home or to something somewhat more temporary-ish. Again when he's mad or whatever, just indicate that you are not okay with anything less than 100% of his affection and loyalty..and when he's willing to give you what is due to a wife, you will at that time consider moving back .

Again, have a certain time in your head, and since it's a temporary-ish place I'd say a shorter amount of time like a week or two. Do not nag him, don't get into fights....just periodically ask and if he is STILL unwilling and carrying on with this choir lady, it's clearly more than a singing partner. At that point I'd expose it as an affair and probably rent something longer term and file for legal separation to protect yourself from the affair partner trying to get your assets. 

It's not controlling. At any point he is free to make the choice to give you 100% of his affection and loyalty. If he chooses to NOT give you what he promised in the wedding vows, then he is making the choice (not being controlled by you) and you are just letting him experience the consequence of what he chose to do.


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

Wow! This story sounds identical to one posted here a few months ago. A lady posted here about her golf pro husband who was enamored with his female golf buddy was half his age.
It seemed his hobby/golf partner was trumping his family obligations.

My advice is to out her inappropriate behavior. Ask her if she texts other members of the quartet as often as she is texting your husband. Tell her it's intrusive. Start marking your territory and be firm about it. IMO


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

And please, make some snooping to get the tone of their comunications.


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## amandbaca (Oct 31, 2012)

The reason I ask is because you mention divorce but when he's unwilling to change


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Good heavens just tell him your filing and will follow through unless he can find an acceptable balance. Honestly at this point I would say that after the way she disrespects you that I would say she needs to move on.

Entirely unacceptable.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

He thinks of her as a favorite niece? This is a woman who treats you with disrespect,talks negatively about you and tells him she doesn't like you.....so what does he do instead of telling her to p*ss off?....he tells you basically you're not welcome at their performances because it upsets her.He either cares for her more than he's willing to admit or you simply have an asshat for a husband.If he doesn't turn this around and realize you and your marriage are way more important than any hobby,then I agree with Affaircare in that you should move out temporarily to really focus his attention on the severity of things.Take care.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

He is supposed to love you more then any one, yet is happy to let another woman treat you in such a fashion.
He needs a huge wake up call. 

It shouldn't even be an argument you and the marriage should come first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Just simply the fact that she disrespects you, is openly rude to you and ignores you should be enough reason for him to stand up for you and slap (figuratively) her down.. where is his loyalty??
She sounds horrid! 

You have asked he change his habits/behavior... then demanded then given a final demand...what's next!

Personally at this stage... I'd file for divorce...it doesn't mean you will end up divorcing but your husband will sure as hell realize you've had enough...100% enough!

BUT only do this if your REALLY are willing to loose it all... sometimes we have to be willing to loose it all...to get what we really want in life!

Best of luck.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

waiwera said:


> *Just simply the fact that she disrespects you, is openly rude to you and ignores you should be enough reason for him to stand up for you and slap (figuratively) her down.. where is his loyalty??*She sounds horrid!
> 
> You have asked he change his habits/behavior... then demanded then given a final demand...what's next!
> 
> ...


:iagree:

A husband's first loyalty is to his wife.

She (OW) should not be able to disrespect the W without getting a figurative b!tch slap from the H.

That is, if he loved his W.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm in the minority here but this doesn't seem like an EA to me.

I think he's more obsessive about the signing than he is about the singing with her. It's a definite problem, and the ignoring of your requests to spend more time together is just straight up rude. You have every right to feel slighted by him. Not so much by her IMO.

But...the constant texting doesn't look good.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

At this point what it is exactly is irrelevant. The OP's husband needs a wake up call. That would be asking the OP for forgiveness and telling the OW to straighten up or find another singing partner.


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## LittleRock (Oct 30, 2012)

Just to update you. My husband finally sat down and talked about things last night. I am not sure how much I can trust everything I said but it's a start. He said that all his life he has enjoyed two things, competing and performing. When he was young and active, he ran obsessively (marathons) and had a marketing job where the best part, for him, was the presentations which he loved doing. (The running we shared until age caught up with us, although I was not as competitive as him.) 

When he retired (early) and could not run anymore, (age/injuries) he missed both competing and performing. He thought that by joining a choir he could satisfy the need to perform and get the admiration he enjoys as a by product. However he found the choir very large and realised he worked better in smaller teams, hence setting up the quartet. He said there was a widow, a mutual friend, in the quartet for a while, until she asked him if he wanted to move in. He has never told me this before. He just thought of her as a friend and was very shocked and at once turned her down. I wondered why she was left the quartet, I did not know this before. I too was shocked as I thought she was my friend too and had been helping her since her husband died. When he turned her down she left the quartet and he invited "Linda" to join in her place.

At first he thought Linda was rather strange, most people do, but their voices blended well together and with her fiance away working during the week, and her only working part time, she had a lot of time on her hands. She took a good deal of interest in the music they sang, suggested arrangements, new numbers etc. The other two members were less involved and so my husband and Linda starting arranging duets.

He found they had very similar musical tastes and very much enjoyed each other's company so that he looked forward to singing with her and following new musical directions. He said it never was and never will be a physical relationship. She told him up front she does not fancy older men and especially not those with a 30 year age gap and is happy with her fiance. She is however a very attractive woman, while my husband is an average looking man for his age and I think he is flattered to be seen with her at concerts. The age gap gives them a certain ambguity as far as the audience is concerned. No one is quite sure how much of a couple they are, a bit like say ice dancers where everyone sort of assumes the skaters are in an off ice partnership as well.

You might think it strange that he should take up an interest which so completely excludes me - I cannot sing to save my life - but he has always been quite self centred and often had to be reminded of the impact some of his decisions were having on others when he thought only of himself, in the past. She seems to be a similar type.

Anyway she was/is always suggesting new numbers and new venues where they might sing and he was/is up for it because he enjoyed/ enjoys all aspects of their musical partnership. He enjoys travelling to shows with her, anticipating the evening, performing and then travelling home and reviewing how it went. They keep up a notional presence at the choir so they also gossip about choir members. They text each other whenever they think of new music or new arrangements. In short, apart from the physical aspects, they have an excellent relationship. Really the singing has taken over from the running.

I suggested it would help me if they cut back on the time they spend together, but he says it is not really that clear cut. They think about the music all the time and when they think up some new angle they want to share it, it is not a 9-5 thing. Then they text each other and when possible rush off to a nearby bar (she has never been in my house and he has never, he assure me, been in hers) to go over the latest idea. 

Basically they are both pretty obsessive people and the singing partnership has become an obsession. One from which I am excluded. I can and do go to concerts but I cannot sing at all and have no musical ability. I have offered to get involved in the non musical side of performances but have been turned down as this is really their thing and there does not seem to be any room for another person. 

She is very hostile to me and has been from the outset when I tried to befriend her. I do think she manipulates him but I think he is willing to be manipulated. For example he has always suggested she seeks him out for lifts to shows, but recently I saw a text from him to her, suggesting an outing to which he would give her a lift. So I do not know how well I can totally trust what he tells me.

I am pretty confident there is no physical affair there, but clearly an emotional affair which I suspect is more on my husband's side than hers. He said he feels he now has two partners, a "professional" singing partner in Linda and a domestic partner in me, his wife. I said I wanted him to be the first person in my life and me in his. He said he was very sorry for stressing me out and if it came to a divorce he would give her up. But he did not want to, he had looked for a long time for a compatible singing partner and now he had found one he is not sure how well he could cope if he was cut off from that side of his life. He also emphasised how he would not mind if I had a similar friend with whom I shared my interest in historical research on equally close terms.

I am not really sure where I can go from here. Of course I have my own friends, but I am not an obsessive type and would not want to do one hobby with one person to the exclusion of anything else. I have asked him to cut back but he says he is an all or nothing man which is pretty true, and I know if I do get him to stop singing with her completely, how much he will resent me. Meanwhile I am very unhappy that he is spending so much time on intimate terms with her , and appears to generally prefer her company to mine, in a field where I cannot compete.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

If I don't want my wife around some woman, there is an affair already happening. Might be time to drop the hammer IMO. Either that or you go to every single function they goto, if he says stay away, hand him the divorce papers and let him know you're going to rake him over the coals if he wants this 28 year old girl over you.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Ok, so now what are the boundaries for this relationship that you are both agreeing he will adhere to? 

He's saying he's an all or nothing man - so you're the nothing in this relationship and she's the all?


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

What would piss me off..is her giving him advice about his marriage and making comments about it...none of her damn business!

Nothing annoys me more than when these AP seem to think that the BS should mind their own business and not interfere with what is going on.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Just that there is no physical aspect in their relationship doesn't mean that their relationship is appropriate. He is right when he said that he has 2 partners, though it wouldn't be too far fetched to say that he has only one, her. While you may not want the divorce, his actions sure are leading your marriage to a one. If he cannot give up his passion, he can do a lot to involve you in his endeavor. Asking you not to be present just because she is uncomfortable with it is the most disrespectful part..

What has he offered until now ? I get it from you post that he wants to give up nothing!!



> He said he was very sorry for stressing me out and if it came to a divorce he would give her up. But he did not want to, he had looked for a long time for a compatible singing partner and now he had found one he is not sure how well he could cope if he was cut off from that side of his life. He also emphasised how he would not mind if I had a similar friend with whom I shared my interest in historical research on equally close terms.


 I am sorry. He just sold you a bog boat load of crap here. That is very selfish of him to say that. I think he finds this woman's attention way too exciting. Call him out on the bluff. His all or nothing offer is bull****. Maybe he is just confident that you won't take the drastic step of divorce...

And regarding the physical aspect, you can never tell. These young women with daddy issues. You wouldn't believe some of the stories I read.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

...and like I said, it would bother me that she is making comments about you to him...that would be a deal breaker to me.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I have a lot to say in response, so I've broken it up into 3 posts.

FIRST:
They are in an emotional affair. Emotional affairs are very misunderstood. For example, many people think that it isn't cheating until there's a physical component. Yet another set of people will acknowledge that once "I love you's" are exchanged, the betrayal has occurred. But I am here to tell you that the betrayal starts when a person outside the marriage becomes an intimate emotional confidant that rivals the marriage partnership. In fact, it starts LONG BEFORE that point, because emotional affairs are insidious: "Proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with harmful effects."

To summarize:



LittleRock said:


> over the last 18 months she has been constantly approaching my husband to perform at another recital or in another competition with her. *She assumes he will always say yes and sadly for me, he does.* Sometimes I suspect the approach has come from him.


 That's because it does.



LittleRock said:


> she and my husband are together *6 days a week*, rehearsing or performing


 and, apparently, doing other stuff rather than rehearsing and performing

and when they're NOT, together, 6 days a week, they are


LittleRock said:


> exchang[ing] texts *constantly*





LittleRock said:


> when they think up some new angle they want to share it, *it is not a 9-5 thing*. Then they text each other *and when possible rush off to a nearby bar* to go over the latest idea.





LittleRock said:


> Not long ago I asked my husband to cut back a bit and spare some time for me but I got nowhere really. *He said he is not about to cut back on their partnership* now that they are having success he is really enjoying.





LittleRock said:


> He said *he feels he now has two partners*, a "professional" singing partner in Linda and a domestic partner in me, his wife.


So how much time would you say he spends on his "hobby?" Sounds like a full-time job to me.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

LittleRock said:


> *She told him up front she does not fancy older men and especially not those with a 30 year age gap and is happy with her fiance*. She is however a very attractive woman, while my husband is an average looking man for his age and I think he is flattered to be seen with her at concerts.


I find that an odd thing to say. Why would that even come up in conversation? If I were in a friendly duet pair with a much older man, I would NEVER humiliate him by implying that he was sexually attracted to me and that I needed to put him in his place because somehow he couldn't control himself. That is essentially what she told him. I don't mean to alarm you, but this makes me think that he did or said something--hugged her too hard, kissed her on the cheek, tried to go to her house--that made her supposedly set up this boundary.

Entirely separately from that--this is what YOUR HUSBAND said she said. But her actions don't seem to match up with these words:


LittleRock said:


> He enjoys travelling to shows with her, anticipating the evening, performing and then travelling home and reviewing how it went. They keep up a notional presence at the choir so they also gossip about choir members. They text each other whenever they think of new music or new arrangements.


and



LittleRock said:


> recently I saw a text from him to her, *suggesting an outing to which he would give her a lift*. So I do not know how well I can totally trust what he tells me.


and



LittleRock said:


> When we do go to concerts to watch them as two couples, her fiance talks to me politely and does not appear to notice her hostility to me. She on the other hand, just *ignores both him and me* and monopolises my husband to talk about nothing except their performance


This in no way suggests to me that this is entirely one-sided. It may be that she enjoys holding your husband sexually at a distance (my husband’s AP did the same). Some women get a sort of high out of that, denying the sexual suitor satisfaction in order to keep them on a string. But make no mistake, this is NOT a one-sided obsession.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

LittleRock said:


> In short, apart from the physical aspects, they have an excellent relationship. *Really the singing has taken over from the running*.


No, no, no, no. His new obsession ISN'T _singing_. It's *Linda*. Yes, your husband has an obsessive personality. He makes sure to spend as much time focussing on his new hobby as he can, and he removes all the obstacles that might be in the way.



LittleRock said:


> So recently I approached her and asked her to see my point of view, that I wanted to spend more time with my husband.


Now you know--approaching a person who is helping your spouse betray their marriage is a WASTE OF TIME. All you did was reward her--she knows exactly what she's doing. She, like all other OWs/OMs, are SMUG in their assurance that they are #1. All you did was confirm this for her. 



LittleRock said:


> She refused to speak to me but apparently told my husband he was “mother ridden” ie I was trying to control his time. So untrue, but *he seems to be so far under her spell he is inclined to believe it*. *I on the other hand feel she is trying to cut him off from me. He says there is an element of truth in this *


This is not your imagination. She is getting a huge thrill out of controlling your husband. This is precisely what an emotional affair does, it feeds the ego. She has no desire to have her ego-feeding cut off. You are a threat to that and she knows it. But YOUR HUSBAND has gone so far as to admit that some of what you perceive is true. You already knew it was true--but if he thinks so too, then there's really nothing left to debate about her motives.



> So I suggested I maybe come to more shows . . . and he said he did not want me to, it was his interest not mine.


So any member of the public, who buys a ticket (like oh, say, I), can go to this concert—but you cannot?



> My husband says having me around at concerts upsets her because she knows I think they spend too much time together and this makes things tense. He has told me she does not like me much because she “thinks” I am overly controlling of him ie want him to spend time with me! Hello he is my husband after all.


He said he feels like he has TWO PARTNERS. But they are not equal partners. He is deliberately and consciously putting her feelings above yours. He is explaining this to your face in detail. He knows exactly what he is doing. This is HIS CHOICE. She is not “making” him do anything.


This woman has become a cancer on your marriage, and she will have to be cut out. This is NOT your doing. This is THEIR doing. She is NO friend of your husband's, because a friend of a person who is married to a loving, non-abusive spouse is a friend of the MARRIAGE as well as the person. 



LittleRock said:


> Finally, in frustration a couple of weeks ago I suggested to him that we split up and then he could sing with her whenever he liked, without me on his back. He said he did not want to split up, he was sorry he was not balancing his life and hobby well but thought I should sympathise more with his having found such a rewarding hobby. He said he would not mind if I found an equally obsessive hobby of my own, as after all this time being married, we did not need to live in each other’s pockets anymore, being more semi -detached suited him fine. He does not want a divorce or separation. He does not even want separate bedrooms.


This is called "cake eating." As he says, he has two partners. He wants them BOTH. You, presumably: cook his meals; wash his clothes; take his suits to the dry cleaners; buy the groceries; and manage the household. In short, WITHOUT YOU he could not be anywhere nearly so obsessed with the hobby.

Separating would put the cold shower on him. It would be the swiftest wake-up call he could get. 

Short of that, stop doing anything for him. Just stop. Don't announce it with a big brou-ha-ha. Just Stop. When he sees there are no clean shirts, and he says, where are they???? Tell him, I'm so sorry, I got carried away reading my book and didn't throw them in the wash. Here's the soap, here's the machine, have at it. And when there's no dinner, or his favorite treat like beer is missing from the fridge, just say, I'm sorry, I was very busy doing X and couldn't fit it in to my schedule. I know this sounds passive-aggressive, but you are not trying to change him by stopping these favors--you are ceasing to ENABLE him. He cannot have the time to devote to his hobby without you spending 6 days a week CONSTANTLY picking up after him, cleaning, shopping, and cooking. So stop enabling his obsession.

*Get the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass.* It is THE best book out there on emotional affairs. You can read excerpts via google books in the links in my signature. It is available at most libraries. Get it ASAP.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> This is called "cake eating." As he says, he has two partners. He wants them BOTH. You, presumably: cook his meals; wash his clothes; take his suits to the dry cleaners; buy the groceries; and manage the household. In short, WITHOUT YOU he could not be anywhere nearly so obsessed with the hobby.
> 
> Separating would put the cold shower on him. It would be the swiftest wake-up call he could get.
> 
> Short of that, stop doing anything for him. Just stop. Don't announce it with a big brou-ha-ha. Just Stop. When he sees there are no clean shirts, and he says, where are they???? Tell him, I'm so sorry, I got carried away reading my book and didn't throw them in the wash. Here's the soap, here's the machine, have at it. And when there's no dinner, or his favorite treat like beer is missing from the fridge, just say, I'm sorry, I was very busy doing X and couldn't fit it in to my schedule. I know this sounds passive-aggressive, but you are not trying to change him by stopping these favors--you are ceasing to ENABLE him. He cannot have the time to devote to his hobby without you spending 6 days a week CONSTANTLY picking up after him, cleaning, shopping, and cooking. So stop enabling his obsession.


QFT (quoted for truth!)




Also let me re-iterate what I said in my original post:

So you had you W-T-F-S conversation. He is completely and fully aware that his wife, to whom 100% of his AFFECTION and *LOYALTY *is due, is not okay with the amount of time spent on his music. He is fully aware that his actions and choices are harming his marriage relationship. And he refuses to do anything to change. Okay... you've said it out loud, he knows, you asked for what you needed, and he said no. What did I say to do next? Here's a copy/paste:

*1. Thereafter, if he is unwilling to cut back or to indicate that his loyalties lie with you and not her, I would not nag him or discuss it with him, I would just pack my things and move to another bedroom. When he's mad or whatever, just indicate that you are not okay with anything less than 100% of his affection and loyalty..and when he's willing to give you what is due to a wife, you will at that time consider moving back to the bedroom. * NOTE TO SELF: iheart suggested that you stop enabling the affair...and that would be perfect to implement here while you've moved out of the bedroom. He would not be able to do all the musical nonsense if he had to spend his time grocery shopping, cooking for himself, doing his own dishes, washing and drying his own laundry and putting it away etc. He's using you as his live-in maid and chef, so if he can choose to be unappreciative, and YOU choose to stop offering it.  Yes he will be angry, but your marriage can survive anger; it can not survive a third party wedging between you two!!

_2. If he continues, I'd set a certain time limit in your head (a month maybe?) and then again, don't nag him. Periodically ask if he's willing to give you 100% of his affection and loyalty yet. If not, after a month, just pack your things and move out. Okay...just luggage not everything you own. Move to your vacation home or to something somewhat more temporary-ish. Again when he's mad or whatever, just indicate that you are not okay with anything less than 100% of his affection and loyalty..and when he's willing to give you what is due to a wife, you will at that time consider moving back .

3. Again, have a certain time in your head, and since it's a temporary-ish place I'd say a shorter amount of time like a week or two. Do not nag him, don't get into fights....just periodically ask and if he is STILL unwilling and carrying on with this choir lady, it's clearly more than a singing partner. At that point I'd expose it as an affair and probably rent something longer term and file for legal separation to protect yourself from the affair partner trying to get your assets. 

It's not controlling. At any point he is free to make the choice to give you 100% of his affection and loyalty. If he chooses to NOT give you what he promised in the wedding vows, then he is making the choice (not being controlled by you) and *you are just letting him experience the consequence of what he chose to do.*_

See, if you constantly 'clean up after his mess' he has not learned what it's like to take personal responsibility for his choices. As an adult, he is free to choose to pursue his music and destroy his marriage-- but REALITY is that if you choose to do that, it is costly and hurts. In order to learn and grow as a human, he needs to be allowed to experience the consequence of what he chooses. When ANY person is giving another person free acts of kindness, they are free to end the acts of kindness if the second person chooses to ignore them or be unappreciative. You don't HAVE TO do his chores. You just don't. There's no rule anywhere that says "Wives have to do the household chores" so respect him enough to stop fixing his messes when he makes a bad choice. Yes he'll be mad because he thinks he's entitled and experiencing the consequences will likely hurt....but in the long-term it is the most loving, respectful thing you can do to show someone, by your actions, that you believe they are mature enough and adult enough to hand the consequences of what they chose!!

BTW...don't fall for his B.S. :bsflag: about finding a compatible singing partner. There is no reason whatsoever that he couldn't put his loyalties behind his MARRIAGE and find a MALE singing partner. If he's a baritone, he would find a tenor. If he's a tenor, he could find a bass. And if another lady says "OOOO we're compatible" he **could** choose to say "I'm sorry you have a great voice that would sound wonderful with mine, but I spend a lot of time on my music and would not dream of putting that kind of time and energy into any other woman but my dear wife. Thanks for the offer though!"


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

OP... just curious as to what the state of your marriage was like between running and his singing. 

Were you sexually active while running?

Were you sexually active between running and singing?

Were you sexually active when he started singing but before it became obsessive?

Do you see anything that would suggest that this is more than even just an emotional affair?


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## LittleRock (Oct 30, 2012)

No I am not a traditional wife - we share the household chores - although he is not very practical. He irons his own shirts and when he is in late, arranges his own food. When we are in together, we share the cooking. Regarding sex - he seems just as interested as ever. 

I do feel that now that he has an absorbing well let us say obsessive "hobby" and a compatible friend to share it with, he is no longer interested in me as the main person in his life. His thoughts are always elsewhere. And because this interest requires skills I do not have, I cannot involve myself with it, even if I wanted to. In fairness to hm he has tried both male and female singing partners in the past few years, and this is the first one that has "taken". (I think she treats her fiance very badly, he is not home much but often left alone when he is, while they go off singing. But as I said, I asked him how he felt about it and he said he was comfortable with it.)

My husband did say the other day that if I ask him to move out in order to continue his "partnership" with her, he would give it up, but it would come "very hard" because singing (with her) is the thing in his life which gives him the most pleasure at present. So, he says, he is trying to cut down on their concert dates but there is not much sign of it. For example they have a scheduled Friday night rehearsal and he said she had told him they could cancel that and she would spend time with her fiance instead. That lasted about three weeks before it was back on again. He says he has been trying lately to persuade her to find an alternative singing partner, for some concerts, to take the pressure off him but she says there is no one really suitable and that at the prospect of another concert date, she still invites him and the old performer comes out to play again. I am not sure how much I believe him. I think he asks her too. 

I think the real point is getting him to stop singing with her would not necessarily solve things between us as he has an overwhelming interest I simply cannot share, given I cannot do (sing) what he wants to do most at present.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

LittleRock said:


> I think the real point is getting him to stop singing with her would not necessarily solve things between us as he has an overwhelming interest I simply cannot share, given I cannot do (sing) what he wants to do most at present.


 You have another option. 

Tell your husband that the issue is not being cause by you but by the other woman (OW) and your husband. Tell him that there are 3 common opposite sex friends boundaries followed by married couples that agree to have opposite sex friends that are not being followed by your husband. Since most married couples do not even allow for opposite sex friends, by you allowing an opposite sex friend but with these common boundaries, you cannot be called controlling. The first is that you cannot have an opposite sex friend that is not a friend to the marriage. The second is that you cannot have an opposite sex friend that is unfriendly to your spouse. The third is that if the opposite sex friendship becomes so intense that the spouse feels neglected, the spouse has the right to either limit it or put an end to it. Clearly she is not a friend to the marraige, clearly she is openly hostile to you, and clearly you are being neglected by your spouse. 

The fact that your husband crossed all three of these common boundaries is the issue. The fact that he allowed the open hostility that is being directed toward you by the OW is his fault. He is your spouse and his loyalty should be to your first, and by his actions it is not. He is not allowed to have 2 partners with split loyalty. The fact that he said that he has two partners is insulting to you and your married as he has now put her on the same footing as you.

At this point you would not be crazy or controlling to either demand that he end it with her completely (best option), or that he tell her that she must actively make peace with you and make you feel welcome to every outing (rehearsals and meeting up at the bar to talk included); by demanding that you be completely excluded, she is the one that has been controlling and not you. If you allow it to continue, you must insist that he cut it way back. Tell him he has those two options or divorce. Tell him that it is not all about him, but that your happiness matters to, and that you need grow old with someone that wants to spend time with you more than anyone else. If that is not him, then it is time to move on. Again, you have a right to be happy too.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Does he also use a computer to communicate?

Seems that some snooping might help you find out if there is more to this relationship than he is telling you. 

Have you ever looked through the texts on his cell?


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

LittleRock said:


> No I am not a traditional wife - we share the household chores - although he is not very practical. He irons his own shirts and when he is in late, arranges his own food. When we are in together, we share the cooking. Regarding sex - he seems just as interested as ever.
> 
> I do feel that now that he has an absorbing well let us say obsessive "hobby" and a compatible friend to share it with, he is no longer interested in me as the main person in his life. His thoughts are always elsewhere. And because this interest requires skills I do not have, I cannot involve myself with it, even if I wanted to. In fairness to hm he has tried both male and female singing partners in the past few years, and this is the first one that has "taken". (I think she treats her fiance very badly, he is not home much but often left alone when he is, while they go off singing. But as I said, I asked him how he felt about it and he said he was comfortable with it.)
> 
> ...


I read this as you accepting this and permitting it to continue.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Has he ever addressed why he's so accepting of her disrespect towards you? Would you carry on in a hobby with a male partner that disrespected him and critiqued your marriage?


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

LittleRock said:


> *My husband did say the other day that if I ask him to move out in order to continue his "partnership" with her, he would give it up, but it would come "very hard" because singing (with her) is the thing in his life which gives him the most pleasure at present.* So, he says, he is trying to cut down on their concert dates but there is not much sign of it. For example they have a scheduled Friday night rehearsal and he said she had told him they could cancel that and she would spend time with her fiance instead. That lasted about three weeks before it was back on again. He says he has been trying lately to persuade her to find an alternative singing partner, for some concerts, to take the pressure off him but she says there is no one really suitable and that at the prospect of another concert date, she still invites him and the old performer comes out to play again. I am not sure how much I believe him. I think he asks her too.
> 
> I think the real point is getting him to stop singing with her would not necessarily solve things between us as he has an overwhelming interest I simply cannot share, given I cannot do (sing) what he wants to do most at present.


The type above in bold must make you feel extra special. 

About 20 years ago my wife had a walking partner that she walked with everyday when I was gone to work and then they would chat each other up for about 2-3 hours. She would do this Saturday mornings as well. I asked if would stop walking on Saturday mornings so we could have that time together and imagine my disappointment when she said absolutely not without batting an eye. It still crushes me when I think about it so I can only imagine what you are going through. You need to make some hard decisions but continuing down the path you are on with him making no changes is going to hurt your soul.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

I would never let this b1tch tell me when I can or can not go to see my spouse sing. Just for her attitude, I would go see them sing every night just to aggravate her. The nerve of this person is enormous. DON'T BACK DOWN FROM HER.
AffairCare gives you some very good advice here and I would take it. Your husband's thoughtless behavior has to have some consequences for him


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

LittleRock said:


> I think the real point is getting him to stop singing with her would not necessarily solve things between us as he has an overwhelming interest I simply cannot share, given I cannot do (sing) what he wants to do most at present.


I think you have to pick your battles.

I don't think you should tell him he has to stop singing altogether, just because you can't sing. As you have offered many times (and as you should now do WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT), you can go to concerts and enjoy the fruit of his hobby.

The issue directly before you TODAY is not how obsessive he is with his "hobby." The issue is that his singing partner is massively monopolizing his time. Don't tell me that if he had a different singing partner, he'd
--still see them 6 days a week
--still constantly text them
--still race out the door to "meet them at a bar"
--still perform in so many concerts
--still tell you NOT TO COME to the concerts because his partner hates your guts

I mean, really.

Don't you think you'd be fine if he shared his excitement with you over an idea he had about a song? 
If he told you to write down the concert dates in your calendar, and planned to take you to dinner afterward for being such a great, patient audience? 
If his singing partner had a spouse who you liked, too, and the 4 of you had occasional couples night activities? 
And if he only spent 4 days a week practicing instead of 6? and 
He NEVER (_never_) dashed out for last-minute discussion of some song idea that could surely wait for a scheduled practice the very next day?

Yes, getting rid of her might not solve _all_ your problems. But if you set this up as "you have to give up singing" rather than "you have to give up this witch who is rude to me your spouse, and who you defer to so much that I can't attend concerts"--you are setting yourself up for failure.


Here is your biggest problem: He doesn't think he's betraying you. He is following a passion--something he believes that if you loved him, you'd allow him to do. The passion itself, within reason, isn't harmful to the marriage. Rather, there is a person whispering poison in his ear and luring your husband away with every single bit of interaction that they have. Don't get me wrong: your instincts are correct: your problem lies with your husband's ALLOWING this woman to act this way, and PERMITTING her hurtful, rude, monopolizing ways. But one thing at a time. If he takes up a new singing partner, and nothing changes, then it's time to deal with the obsessive behavior. You are telling us he was singing for some time previously and this dynamic didn't happen before. So deal with what's different now, and that is his allowing this woman to get between the two of you.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

WOW did iheart nail it again!!!!!!!! Please read that one again and again...and then again. 

Here's why. 

What if your hubby had a male partner? Would it really be okay with you if he spent 6 nights a week away from you..even with another guy? Would it really be okay if he constantly texted with this male person about performing or suggesting arrangements? Would it really be okay if he raced out the door to meet the other guy at the bar? Would it really be okay if he did so many performances? Would it really be okay if the other guy singer excluded you and said you couldn't even come to rehearsals???

It seems to me there are kind of two issues happening at once here. One is the issue of giving his time and energy (loyalty) to something other than the health of the marriage. It would be inappropriate to spend this much time on ANY obsessive hobby--male or female partner!!! 

The other is the issue of giving his interest, enjoyment, fun and pleasure (affection) to another woman AND when asked to consider your feeling versus hers, he chooses to not upset her (loyalty). It is easier to fall into the trap of inappropriate emotional closeness when the person is of the opposite sex, and thus for this second issue the gender does matter--a female person would just be inappropriate! Sharing a passion for symphonies with another male person where it was just not your cup of tea but he went once a month...there would be giving of loyalty and a much less likely chance of him giving his interest, enjoyment, fun and pleasure. 

So both need to be addressed: the obsession that harms the marriage...and the inappropriate emotional attachment to another female.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> *WOW did iheart nail it again!!!!!!!! Please read that one again and again...and then again. *
> 
> 
> BOTH of you hit home runs on this!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I heart life has basically said what I wanted to say. But I will reitterate 

" He said it never was and never will be a physical relationship. She told him up front she does not fancy older men and especially not those with a 30 year age gap and is happy with her fiance. "

THIS is said when someone makes a pass and is refused. This is NOT the kind of conversation one would have when the relationship has been purely platonic.





Originally Posted by LittleRock 
She refused to speak to me but apparently told my husband he was “mother ridden” ie I was trying to control his time. So untrue, but he seems to be so far under her spell he is inclined to believe it. I on the other hand feel she is trying to cut him off from me. He says there is an element of truth in this"

Why does she think you are trying to control your husband? Someone is feeding this idea in her head. And it is not you! 

Not only does she have this idea, but your husband is absolutely not disagreeing with her and putting her right! 




" He also emphasised how he would not mind if I had a similar friend with whom I shared my interest in historical research on equally close terms." 

This is total crap! The only reason he says it is 'I wouldn't mind, threrefore you shouldn't mind, and if you do mind then it is you with the problem'. You have 2 choices here. You can tell him he is full of sh*t, neglectful, and will end up with no marriage if he continues allowing this disrespectful relationship to continue. Or you can go out everytime he comes in. And make sure you are out with John. Not Sally. And then see if he really wouldn't mind you spending all your free time away from the marriage. With a man. Try it for a 2 week period and see what happens. Make sure that everytime he walks in the house, you are walking out. If he is around to spend the morning togeether, you go out. If he wants dinner, he can make it. Because right now he is feeling none his neglect, he is not fully and mentally thinking of the effects of being abandoned by his spouse on a daily and weekly basis. When he says he wouldn't mind you dedicating your life to a hobby with another man, he pictures you being away when he is. You having things to fill your time when he is not around. He does not picture you never being there when he is. Or you being not available to him when he wants you to be.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Lots of people mistake the sex part of infidelity as the worst part of the cheating. It's not. The worst part of infidelity is having your SO choose the other person over you. It's the betrayal.

Your husband may not be having a PA with her. Though he may, since it's unlikely he'd admit it and give you another reason to demand she go.

But even if there is no PA, your husband has been choosing HER over you. He is more worried about her feelings and wants than yours. He listens to her more than he does you. 

Think about this: You stewed and stewed before you talked to him about how you felts about him and her etc.

She went immediately to him and told him "You're wife is giving me grief, make her stop and go away. She makes me unhappy" And he followed up by dealing with you and asking you to leave.

Right there is the crystal clear demonstration of what's wrong here: She, her wants, her feelings, her worries are a higher priority to him than yours are. He is choosing her over you.

And she knows it. 

Think about it. Who runs to a person's spouse to complain about the spouse and demand action? Answer: Someone who knows they get more loyalty out of the person, and the spouse will.

So even if they aren't having sex. They are crossing acceptable relationship boundaries. Their relationship is where he puts his loyalty.

As for your husband - I can't help but wonder if he's some kind narcissist. You say he's always been obsessive about his hobbies and competitive. He can't be on a TEAM unless he's the star. Running is kind of perfect for that - it's all about the individual.

When he worked in marketing I'm guessing he was a one man show? Always the one out in front, the one being visible?

The guy craves attention and being the center of the room. He now has some pretty eye candy that wants his attention and time constantly, and when they go to their singing stuff the two of them are the center of attention.

I don't see how you're going to fix this one. He will only be happy doing something obsessively, and the one and only thing he wants to do, he has given you the boot from. Oh, sure you're allowed to be another face in the adoring audience, but that's all.

He's never going to be that loving partner who focuses on you. If you ever took seriously ill and need a lot him time and attention, I think you'd find yourself abandoned and alone.

This isn't the kind of man you can share your life with. He's the kind of man who will include another person while that other person is part of his "world" but once they no longer are part of his world, he hasn't any time or use for them.

And this is where you are at now. A selfish self centered man for a husband who's chosen his singing and his singing partner as his #1 priority. I doubt that he would actually give them up even if you really did offer D or them.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

While I think you have a problem, I can relate to how your husband may be feeling, and I'd like to give you a different perspective.

First, I get the idea of him being passionate about something and obsessed with it. I can be like that. My wife just smiles and allows it...she is a bit the same, though about different things. And I suggest to you that marriage is a partnership where you support each other in your dreams. That doesn't mean I think you should just let him do what he wants, but I do think it's about balance, and I would be careful drawing a line too firmly.

Second, I think you have to be careful with opposite sex friendships in a marriage, but I don't necessarily think something is going on. The fact that they have discussed it may be they have talked about it and set boundaries, which would be a good thing. My wife has a close male friend at work. They are passionate about what they do, and get on very well. And my wife has been unfaithful to me many years ago, so you can bet I keep an eye on it! But you can't lock your husband up in a box. So my suggestion here would be to talk about boundaries, and keep an eye on them. Maybe they'd be better to meet at your homes rather than a bar? And I'd reserve the right to turn up to any of their performances if you wish. I'd certainly talk to him and agree boundaries on opposite sex friends, but you guys have to determine those boundaries for yourselves. You'll find a lot of good perspectives on that here on TAM.

As for her not liking you....I have some friends who play in a band, and one of them had a wife who hated it. She was always dragging her heels and getting in the way of his musical dreams, and the rest of the band ended up hating her because she was so destructive to what they wanted to do. Could this be what is happening in the singing partner's mind, because the way you said she talks about you is the way this band used to talk about my friend's wife? And note that I said "had a wife", not "has". There were other issues in that marriage, but her lack of support was one of them.

A lot of people are saying they would divorce him if it's going to be like this. Is that how you feel?

Being positive about it...your husband has said that he doesn't want to choose but if you make him he will choose you, and he has talked in ways that suggest boundaries in the relationship. Could he be lying? Of course, any of our partners could be lying. So you have to decide whether to trust him.

And if you destroy his passion and have him moping and miserable around the house, is that what you want? How would you feel if he wanted you to give up your history interest?

I hope this helps to give you a different perspective. Not saying everything is above board, just saying it may be. A spouse who is neglecting the marriage due to a hobby or passion isn't necessarily an affair, but it's certainly still a problem you should address.

Why not talk to him about experiences you can share and positive things you can do together? Rather than worrying about what else he is doing, make sure there are some good things there that you can share in.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

While I think you have a problem, I can relate to how your husband may be feeling, and I'd like to give you a different perspective.

First, I get the idea of him being passionate about something and obsessed with it. I can be like that. My wife just smiles and allows it...she is a bit the same, though about different things. And I suggest to you that marriage is a partnership where you support each other in your dreams. That doesn't mean I think you should just let him do what he wants, but I do think it's about balance, and I would be careful drawing a line too firmly.

Second, I think you have to be careful with opposite sex friendships in a marriage, but I don't necessarily think something is going on. The fact that they have discussed it may be they have talked about it and set boundaries, which would be a good thing. My wife has a close male friend at work. They are passionate about what they do, and get on very well. And my wife has been unfaithful to me many years ago, so you can bet I keep an eye on it! But you can't lock your husband up in a box. So my suggestion here would be to talk about boundaries, and keep an eye on them. Maybe they'd be better to meet at your homes rather than a bar? And I'd reserve the right to turn up to any of their performances if you wish. I'd certainly talk to him and agree boundaries on opposite sex friends, but you guys have to determine those boundaries for yourselves. You'll find a lot of good perspectives on that here on TAM.

As for her not liking you....I have some friends who play in a band, and one of them had a wife who hated it. She was always dragging her heels and getting in the way of his musical dreams, and the rest of the band ended up hating her because she was so destructive to what they wanted to do. Could this be what is happening in the singing partner's mind, because the way you said she talks about you is the way this band used to talk about my friend's wife? And note that I said "had a wife", not "has". There were other issues in that marriage, but her lack of support was one of them.

A lot of people are saying they would divorce him if it's going to be like this. Is that how you feel?

Being positive about it...your husband has said that he doesn't want to choose but if you make him he will choose you, and he has talked in ways that suggest boundaries in the relationship. Could he be lying? Of course, any of our partners could be lying. So you have to decide whether to trust him.

And if you destroy his passion and have him moping and miserable around the house, is that what you want? How would you feel if he wanted you to give up your history interest?

I hope this helps to give you a different perspective. Not saying everything is above board, just saying it may be. A spouse who is neglecting the marriage due to a hobby or passion isn't necessarily an affair, but it's certainly still a problem you should address.

Why not talk to him about experiences you can share and positive things you can do together? Rather than worrying about what else he is doing, make sure there are some good things there that you can share in.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Think about it. Who runs to a person's spouse to complain about the spouse and demand action? Answer: Someone who knows they get more loyalty out of the person, and the spouse will.


Or someone who happens to be driven and assertive, maybe with poor interpersonal skills, vs a spouse who is quiet and avoids confrontation?

Sorry, I know I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I think what you are saying here is a little bit paranoid, based on the information provided so far.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I hope this helps to give you a different perspective. Not saying everything is above board, just saying it may be. A spouse who is neglecting the marriage due to a hobby or passion isn't necessarily an affair, but it's certainly still a problem you should address.


The OP is the one who actually first mentioned a divorce or separation or even separate bedrooms, and she apparently did that before coming here. So no one here is putting that idea into her head.

I agree that this doesn't meet the layperson's definition of an affair (assuming there's no physical component). But constantly texting, constantly leaving the house on the spur of the moment to meet with this person, promising to cut back on the number of concerts and never following through, and then the ultimate--what really seals the deal--_informing his spouse she ought not to attend concerts at all, to spare the feelings of the singing partner_--this is not "above board" and never will be.

As far as your example of that member of the band and his wife, who's to say he wasn't similarly abandoning his home responsibilities. If you can safely say that he wasn't, then the analogy does NOT fit this one. Here, this man not only practices and spends time with his singing partner 6 days a week, but texts during the interim when they're not together. I PROMISE YOU, Wazza, you would NOT be sympathetic of your wife spending that amount of time with someone who you knew for a FACT, who your wife openly acknowledged, was hostile and rude toward you. I find it amusing that you seem to think that the singing partner might have some legitimate reason for treating the OP this way. 

Really? A virtual stranger who doesn't know her from adam, a woman thirty years his junior--a man who's been very happily married to the OP--now it's the singing partner who has the accurate view of the situation? This is not Yoko Ono trying to break up the Beatles. I think you get a kick out of being contrarian~ this time you really have me cracking up.

This woman clearly had a very close and intimate relationship with her husband, when they shared the hobby of running. They've been married a long time. Now she's being told by her husband, who she knows quite intimately, that he "has two partners." I think it's pretty clear she knows what she's dealing with, even if you don't.

I don't believe they will divorce. I believe if SHE wants to stay married to him, she will figure out a way to communicate how hurtful his behavior has become. But this man is behaving in a very selfish way that would be damaging to nearly any marriage, let alone his own. I don't have a problem with you arguing against divorce, Wazza. But I think it's quite a stretch for you to suggest his behavior is benign and that the "controlling" bad actor in this picture is the OP. Don't come back and say that isn't what you meant, because I don't see another interpretation of what you've just said--on that score you are truly out in left field.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> The OP is the one who actually first mentioned a divorce or separation or even separate bedrooms, and she apparently did that before coming here. So no one here is putting that idea into her head.
> 
> I agree that this doesn't meet the layperson's definition of an affair (assuming there's no physical component). But constantly texting, constantly leaving the house on the spur of the moment to meet with this person, promising to cut back on the number of concerts and never following through, and then the ultimate--what really seals the deal--_informing his spouse she ought not to attend concerts at all, to spare the feelings of the singing partner_--this is not "above board" and never will be.
> 
> ...


I'm going to be firm. Please don't take that as aggression. It's not. 

I didn't say the husband's behaviour was benign. I said it was a problem. Clearly and explicitly. I said action was needed, including not accepting the husband's current position. If you don't see that, let me know and I can start quoting excerpts from my post to clarify.

I didn't say the young singing parter was in the right, or the OP in the wrong. I am in no position to know that. I gave an alternate perspective to consider, because divorce is on the table. I don't know how seriously, but even the threat of divorce is serious. It's worth careful thought before going there. If I had to guess, most likely both sides are contributing to the conflict, but I could be wrong. If I assume both are contributing then a circuit breaker is needed. The husband giving up singing is one possible circuit breaker. Divorce is another. Maybe there is a less extreme one.

I didn't say I would be comfortable with my wife in such a situation. You are right, I would not allow the situation as described. I would make changes, which is what I said. 

I didn't argue against divorce. I asked if that was what OP wanted. It may well be that things end up there.

I didn't say there was no affair even. I explicitly said the husband may be lying.

And for the record, I don't enjoy being contrarian for it's own sake. I genuinely don't always agree with what I read on TAM. I think it suffers from groupthink that focusses on worst-case scenarios, and part of why I hang around here is specifically to provide an alternate view. I'd like to help other people avoid some of the mistakes I made and some of the pain I went through. Betrayed spouse here...a long time ago but still got the scars, and this stuff is all VERY personal for me. Of course I read things on TAM that make me trigger. No intellectual games or arguing for it's own sake here. Honest!


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Wazza said:


> If I assume both are contributing then a circuit breaker is needed. The husband giving up singing is one possible circuit breaker. Divorce is another. Maybe there is a less extreme one.


Yes, the less extreme one would be the one that I suggested, as did others, that he not stop singing entirely, but rather find a different situation, whether a quartet or partner. The idea being that if it's really the singing that makes him so happy, he shouldn't be denied that entirely. He just needs to figure out a healthy way to channel that enjoyment so that it isn't so all-consuming. He was clearly able to reasonably manage singing as a hobby, until he met Linda, who he now openly describes as an equal partner on par with his wife.

I will concede that it's possible this man has other issues. That his obsessive tendencies are a part of a larger problem--for example, some people with ADHD can become obsessive about particular activities to an extent that it harms their ability to function on a daily basis; or narcissists, whose self-focus drives them to do whatever they prefer, to the harm of others.

I will admit to being more than startled that you would suggest that the OP has in any way created this dynamic with Linda. I see ZERO evidence for this in the OP's posts. Zero. What I gather is that OP has tried in various ways to become acquainted with Linda, and over a year and a half, thwarted in that effort at every turn. I see a wife who has tried very, very hard to be supportive of her husband's hobby. Eighteen months of this--OP has the patience of a SAINT as far as facts go.




> And for the record, I don't enjoy being contrarian for it's own sake. I genuinely don't always agree with what I read on TAM. I think it suffers from groupthink that focusses on worst-case scenarios, and part of why I hang around here is specifically to provide an alternate view. I'd like to help other people avoid some of the mistakes I made and some of the pain I went through. Betrayed spouse here...a long time ago but still got the scars, and this stuff is all VERY personal for me. Of course I read things on TAM that make me trigger. No intellectual games or arguing for it's own sake here. Honest!


I am very glad to hear you don't like being contrarian for its own sake. There is always room for differing views and I can agree that perhaps there ought to be more, because these issues aren't black and white.

I was going to comment on your use of the phrase "groupthink," but I think I'll just let that statement speak for itself, should anyone seek to understand where your advice is coming from.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> I will admit to being more than startled that you would suggest that the OP has in any way created this dynamic with Linda. I see ZERO evidence for this in the OP's posts. Zero. What I gather is that OP has tried in various ways to become acquainted with Linda, and over a year and a half, thwarted in that effort at every turn. I see a wife who has tried very, very hard to be supportive of her husband's hobby. Eighteen months of this--OP has the patience of a SAINT as far as facts go.


Based on the posts, zero direct evidence, I agree. 

General experience teaches me that when two people don't get on both usually contribute to the problem, and usually each can see the other's faults more than their own.

We only know the OP's story. Unless we had the young singer's story we lack the necessary information for an informed judgement. And I have no desire to judge. I started my first post saying I was offering an alternate perspective. That probably looked like a euphemism for "I disagree". It wasn't.

As for the groupthink thing....well my advice comes from my heart and my experience. I am a successfully reconciled spouse, but I am not a trained counsellor or a guru, nor is my journey necessarily even typical. I can point you to threads where my advice has helped, I can point you to threads where I was wrong. There is no certainty.The groupthink thing would be an interesting discussion, but it would also be a difficult one, and this thread is not the place for it imo. I'm sure most of us who are active on TAM have some idea of where each other are coming from when we offer advice.

OP, the intent of my posts was not to criticise you. Your marriage is in difficulties, I was giving you things to think about. I reiterate, I would not leave things as they are if I were in your position!


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## StuckInMud (Aug 9, 2012)

I am so sorry you are going through this. 

Your husband is very, very selfish. He sounds like a narcissist. I am married to a narcissist, and when they want something they will go right over you like a steam roller to get it. They do not have the ability to see what it does to you, all they see is their personal wants. The only way they will see what devastation they are causing is for things to come to the brink of collapse. Narcissists do not have the ability to feel empathy.

Our stories are similar in a lot of ways. When my wife goes on a selfishness binge with her skiing club, she cannot see the harm it does to me and our marriage until I walking out the door. No amount of logic or pleading will sway her. Narcissists will only respond when they see their world collapsing around them. It is very frustrating dealing with it. He needs a shock. There need to be consequences.


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