# Advice needed



## Jksc11

My wife and I have been together for 14 years. Married for the last 5 years. In 2011, when we had been together already for 6 years, I discovered that she had been having a man from her gym to our house once a week for approx 6 months. I was an absolute fool to believe her claim that they had not had sex. He was coming over to our house in the early morning right after I left for work. Through her lies and my wanting to believe her, I believef that it was an emotional affair only This bothered me a great deal and I have not fully trusted her the past 8 years....knowing deep down I had not received the full story. It should be noted that I have had to have serious conversations with her over the last 8 years to discover what actually happened and was lied to every time. I was in a deep denial and took her word. Like I said we are now married with a one year old son. Our relationship has always been good to great except this one very major issue. 

Fast forward to two weeks ago. We were approaching our 5 year anniversary and the nagging suspicion was getting stronger than ever. I started a conversation with her and calmly told her that I KNEW there was more to the story and that I needed to know. She finally had the guts to tell me something resembling the truth. She admitted that they would frequently make out and that it lead to sex in our living room “3 times”. No new evidence had been introduced but I think she finally realized the truth needed to come out and that I wasn’t going to accept the same old answer. 

I am absolutely destroyed. I wish I had of left her back then when my gut told me to. The stakes are so much higher now that we are married, have a child together and own a home. I am fairly certain this is going to be the end of us, but also realize I need to process this and make my decision in a clear state of mind. We have both been going to counseling...together and individually. Our relationship and marriage have been an otherwise happy one. Great sex life, similar interests, sense of humor, work well together. That may be what makes it so hard to understand how and why this happened. 

Since last week she has appeared to be extremely remorseful, feeling the full weight of her decision to cheat and lie to me for 8 years. Her claim that she did not tell me because she wanted to protect our relationship and me is basically what I’ve got from her as to why it took this long to tell me. I am still waiting on a coherent story as to why all this happened and why she did not tell me the truth when it happened, before we married or before we started a family. I feel like I was robbed of the choice to exit the relationship at major, life altering crossroads like marriage and starting a family. 

I am torn between the fact that she committed an utterly disgusting act(s) by cheating nearly 2 dozen times in our home. Her story is that they made out and got handsy about 20 times. She is adamant that sex occurred 3 times, though I question that number it it seems low when she admitted to making out around 20 times. So it was not a one time thing where someone quickly realizes the mistake and ends it. I caught them and that’s how it stopped. It very likely would have continued longer had I not put s stop to it. She did end it quickly when they were caught and says no contact in 8 years. The fact that all this occurred IN OUR HOME hits me especially hard too....it just seems like the absolute lowest thing a person can do. 

As I said our 14 years together have been mostly great except for this very large cloud that has hung over us the last 8 years. I am trying to see a path towards reconciliation assuming she continues to be forthcoming, remorseful and transparent but I am am having a hard time believing that this won’t eat me up if I stay with her. Trust is non existent and the mental image of her doing these things keeps me up every single night. It was not a one night stand but a 6 month long affair in every level....emotional and physical. 

I know the dominant opinion on this board is to divorce her immediately. Divorce is very much on the table and she knows that. I also realize that divorce is not the easy button either and has implications of its own that create unhappiness down the road. My son is my primary concern. I am fearful of staying in the marriage and becoming bitter and resentful and having it end a few years from now. I am worried it could happen again, although as I said I do genuinely feel she had bettered herself in the last 8 years and has come to terms with the damage and pain she inflicted on us. I also fear that a hasty decision to divorce her could leave me wondering if we could have worked things out....for ourselves and for our son.


----------



## Marduk

Don’t make a decision right now. You need to process your new reality. Which is:

1. You married her under false pretences. She was willing to lie to you to and marry you, while she knew you would leave her if you knew the truth.
2. You knew she wasn’t telling the truth about this guy, and you married her anyway.
3. You will never know what really happened with her and this guy, or any other. It’s typical that cheaters only admit to (say) 1% of what really happened. If she said it happened 3 times, it happened dozens or hundreds of times. If it happened dozens of times, well... do the math. It’s also entirely possible - or even probable - that there have been other men.
4. She did it in your home. For months at least. You need to process this - I’d be feeling doubly violated here.
5. Your entire relationship has been a lie. A work of fiction that she wrote for you to believe her, so she could get what she wanted. This is world-shattering for you. Take time internalizing this. A six month affair in your home is not a mistake. It was intentional.

What I recommend you do starting today:
1. Ask her to sleep somewhere else, even another bedroom. Stop having sex with her. Stop kissing, touching, or acting romantically in any way with her. You need distance long enough to get your shields up.
2. Get an STD test. You don’t know what you might have picked up from this guy that has been asymptomatic for all these years, or if there have been other men. You don’t know anything about this woman at this point.
3. Make an appointment with a lawyer to know what your rights are if you decide to leave. And if you decide to stay, explore a post-nup. 
4. Ask her to write out a full and complete timeline of everything she did with any other man since you started dating. How you phrase this is important. Write it down and get her to agree to give you this within 24 hours. Tell her if there are any discrepancies in what she says with what you find out in the future, it will mean an immediate divorce.
5. Get an individual therapist to help you process this. Keep posting here, these folks will have your back. Tell some buddies that you’re close to. Let them be your sounding board, don’t let your wife be. She will be actively managing your perception of reality right now, you need objective viewpoints.
6. Google the following: DARVO, trickle truth, hysterical bonding, narcissism, cheater’s script, and the 180.


----------



## Red Sonja

I would add that you also need to DNA your child. After her years-long deception who knows what else she is hiding?


----------



## Marduk

Red Sonja said:


> I would add that you also need to DNA your child. After her years-long deception who knows what else she is hiding?



I considered that, and didn’t include it as an immediate action. I agree it should happen at some point in the weeks and months to come, even if he would want to remain the child’s father even if he’s not related to the child.

1. Even if it’s his child, it’s a deeply symbolic act that would help demonstrate to his wife how serious this is.
2. His child could have genetic health concerns from the OM that they wouldn’t be aware of otherwise.
3. If it’s not his child, it demonstrates a whole new level of deception.

I just think he might not be ready for that step quite yet.


----------



## EveningThoughts

Now why would a man go round to a woman's house in the early morning after you left for work?

Whatever your wife says, his intentions seem pretty clear.

Unless he was giving her a lift each week. Even so he didn't need to come into the house for a pre work/gym chat or coffee did he.
How did you catch them? And what did you catch them doing?
How much longer would it have continued if you hadn't stopped it?

This seems so sad if the rest of the relationship was and is good. 

You want to know why she would do this. You need answers, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened.

Yes, she may feel remorseful now and regret it. She might even feel a complete idiot for falling for a player. Maybe not. But again, she allowed it to happen many times, so she obviously wanted and enjoyed it. In her own home.
Did they do anything outside of your home?

Your love and need to believe that she wouldn't do this, stopped you from following your gut instinct. 
So, yes it is more complicated now that you are married with a child.

You don't have to make your decision yet. Take the time to process it. Have a break away from home. Continue with the counselling. Maybe even a trial separation. 
You have been dealing with this cloud over your relationship for many years, and now you are finally starting to get the truth you needed. 
It's not good, but it will free you and validate that your instincts were true.


----------



## ABHale

Jksc11 said:


> My wife and I have been together for 14 years. Married for the last 5 years. In 2011, when we had been together already for 6 years, I discovered that she had been having a man from her gym to our house once a week for approx 6 months. I was an absolute fool to believe her claim that they had not had sex. He was coming over to our house in the early morning right after I left for work. Through her lies and my wanting to believe her, I believef that it was an emotional affair only This bothered me a great deal and I have not fully trusted her the past 8 years....knowing deep down I had not received the full story. It should be noted that I have had to have serious conversations with her over the last 8 years to discover what actually happened and was lied to every time. I was in a deep denial and took her word. Like I said we are now married with a one year old son. Our relationship has always been good to great except this one very major issue.
> 
> Fast forward to two weeks ago. We were approaching our 5 year anniversary and the nagging suspicion was getting stronger than ever. I started a conversation with her and calmly told her that I KNEW there was more to the story and that I needed to know. She finally had the guts to tell me something resembling the truth. She admitted that they would frequently make out and that it lead to sex in our living room “3 times”. No new evidence had been introduced but I think she finally realized the truth needed to come out and that I wasn’t going to accept the same old answer.
> 
> I am absolutely destroyed. I wish I had of left her back then when my gut told me to. The stakes are so much higher now that we are married, have a child together and own a home. I am fairly certain this is going to be the end of us, but also realize I need to process this and make my decision in a clear state of mind. We have both been going to counseling...together and individually. Our relationship and marriage have been an otherwise happy one. Great sex life, similar interests, sense of humor, work well together. That may be what makes it so hard to understand how and why this happened.
> 
> Since last week she has appeared to be extremely remorseful, feeling the full weight of her decision to cheat and lie to me for 8 years. Her claim that she did not tell me because she wanted to protect our relationship and me is basically what I’ve got from her as to why it took this long to tell me. I am still waiting on a coherent story as to why all this happened and why she did not tell me the truth when it happened, before we married or before we started a family. I feel like I was robbed of the choice to exit the relationship at major, life altering crossroads like marriage and starting a family.
> 
> I am torn between the fact that she committed an utterly disgusting act(s) by cheating nearly 2 dozen times in our home. Her story is that they made out and got handsy about 20 times. She is adamant that sex occurred 3 times, though I question that number it it seems low when she admitted to making out around 20 times. So it was not a one time thing where someone quickly realizes the mistake and ends it. I caught them and that’s how it stopped. It very likely would have continued longer had I not put s stop to it. She did end it quickly when they were caught and says no contact in 8 years. The fact that all this occurred IN OUR HOME hits me especially hard too....it just seems like the absolute lowest thing a person can do.
> 
> As I said our 14 years together have been mostly great except for this very large cloud that has hung over us the last 8 years. I am trying to see a path towards reconciliation assuming she continues to be forthcoming, remorseful and transparent but I am am having a hard time believing that this won’t eat me up if I stay with her. Trust is non existent and the mental image of her doing these things keeps me up every single night. It was not a one night stand but a 6 month long affair in every level....emotional and physical.
> 
> I know the dominant opinion on this board is to divorce her immediately. Divorce is very much on the table and she knows that. I also realize that divorce is not the easy button either and has implications of its own that create unhappiness down the road. My son is my primary concern. I am fearful of staying in the marriage and becoming bitter and resentful and having it end a few years from now. I am worried it could happen again, although as I said I do genuinely feel she had bettered herself in the last 8 years and has come to terms with the damage and pain she inflicted on us. I also fear that a hasty decision to divorce her could leave me wondering if we could have worked things out....for ourselves and for our son.


You believe a story that they just talked?!?!?!?

Well you got what you hung around for. 

Is the kid yours or gym guy?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

The possible silver lining is that if the kid isn't yours, you can drop the usual rationalization to stay in the marriage "for the kids."


----------



## SunCMars

I hate saying this...

Surprise, surprise, no surprise.

The time for anger has long since passed.
You had your chance and you ducked the truth.

Live with your original decision.
To stay and work through the pain.

That initial and fatal chin punch just glanced, and mostly missed. 
It has since lost its energy.

This latest knowledge learned from years past is old news.
The years since have been mostly good. Your new truth.

Let it go.

If you cannot, make some other reason, the reason for leaving.

Right or wrong, she never left, she is still yours.
And now she is beholden, likely was since D-Day.



The Typist I-


----------



## Jksc11

Regarding the paternity test. It crossed my mind and
might be something I pursue. Especially if more recent events come to light. Our son is 1 YO. We were trying for a baby, she got pregnant when we were trying and he us a spitting image of me. 

She tells me that we were/are in a happy relationship. That she started going to the gym and he was flirting. She resisted at first but that she began to reciprocate because it felt good to get the positive attention. Mind you were were in a good spot in our relationship at this time, or so I thought. Frequent dates, outdoor activities, week long trips to Mexico. I didn’t feel like anything was lacking. She goes on to say that at some point it was decided he come over to our house in the morning. She admits she welcomed it and that she was an equal partner in making this happen. She goes on to say that the first few times nothing happened but it eventually turned physical and she continued to welcome it. She says she knew it was wrong but enjoyed the excitement and risky behavior. This continued one day per week for about 6 months, with her saying that the sex happened towards the end and happened the day I caught her. 

It was very cold and calculated. So alcohol to blame for bad decisions. Timing had to be right when I left but then leave enough time for her to get to work. I caught her because my neighbor said he had seen a man come into our driveway at regular times for the last several months, and thought I should know. In hindsight I should have kept that info and caught them but I was too caught up in finding the truth. I now realize doing this hampered me from getting the truth for several years and figured everyone comes clean when caught. She admits that she is not sure where it would have gone if I didn’t stop it. 

She has been forthcoming with details I’ve asked that were painful to hear but that I had zero proof of. I am considering asking her to take a poly but part of me thinks that if I do that it really just signals the end of our marriage. 

Her “why” is that she was young, dumb, had a temporary (albeit 6 months is not really temporary) lapse of character and moral judgement. We started dating when she was 18 so did not get to experience other men. This is in no way excluding what she did but I do expect a coherent explanation and a deep understanding from her of how all this happened if we have any chance in hell of reconciling.


----------



## Marduk

Jksc11 said:


> Regarding the paternity test. It crossed my mind and
> 
> might be something I pursue. Especially if more recent events come to light. Our son is 1 YO. We were trying for a baby, she got pregnant when we were trying and he us a spitting image of me.
> 
> 
> 
> She tells me that we were/are in a happy relationship. That she started going to the gym and he was flirting. She resisted at first but that she began to reciprocate because it felt good to get the positive attention. Mind you were were in a good spot in our relationship at this time, or so I thought. Frequent dates, outdoor activities, week long trips to Mexico. I didnâ€t feel like anything was lacking. She goes on to say that at some point it was decided he come over to our house in the morning. She admits she welcomed it and that she was an equal partner in making this happen. She goes on to say that the first few times nothing happened but it eventually turned physical and she continued to welcome it. She says she knew it was wrong but enjoyed the excitement and risky behavior. This continued one day per week for about 6 months, with her saying that the sex happened towards the end and happened the day I caught her.
> 
> 
> 
> It was very cold and calculated. So alcohol to blame for bad decisions. Timing had to be right when I left but then leave enough time for her to get to work. I caught her because my neighbor said he had seen a man come into our driveway at regular times for the last several months, and thought I should know. In hindsight I should have kept that info and caught them but I was too caught up in finding the truth. I now realize doing this hampered me from getting the truth for several years and figured everyone comes clean when caught. She admits that she is not sure where it would have gone if I didnâ€t stop it.
> 
> 
> 
> She has been forthcoming with details Iâ€ve asked that were painful to hear but that I had zero proof of. I am considering asking her to take a poly but part of me thinks that if I do that it really just signals the end of our marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Her â€œwhyâ€� is that she was young, dumb, had a temporary (albeit 6 months is not really temporary) lapse of character and moral judgement. We started dating when she was 18 so did not get to experience other men. This is in no way excluding what she did but I do expect a coherent explanation and a deep understanding from her of how all this happened if we have any chance in hell of reconciling.




If she’s willing to cheat on you for half a year when the relationship was good because she liked the attention, and was willing to lie to you about it while the person she “loved” made a life altering commitment...

Imagine what she will do when the relationship gets rough. Imagine what she will do if you divorce her when there’s even more for her to lose. 

She lacks integrity. 

You don’t know her. 

Stop making excuses for her. 

Do not sweep this under the rug for another 8 years. 

I virtually guarantee there’s more.


----------



## wilson

Just on the face of it, her explanation seems unrealistic. It's not believable that a guy goes over to a woman's house like that and sex isn't happening every time. Maybe it was just kissing and oral the first visit or so, but there's a 99% chance it was sex from then on out. Why else would the guy keep coming back? What guy goes over to a woman's house just to talk for so long? There's no reason for gym guy to keep sniffing around for 5 months hoping that he'll eventually get something. He would have moved onto someone else by then.

You sound hesitant to discover the truth because you likely know that it will end your marriage. But if you don't fully discover the truth, you're not in a real marriage anyway. It's a virtual fantasy of a marriage. If you want to live in a fantasy, then stop asking questions and take everything at face value. But if you want to have a chance at a real future, do everything you can to find the unvarnished truth. Either it won't be as bad as you think and you'll be able to rebuild, or it will be so bad that you won't want to recover.


----------



## lovelygirl

Jksc11 said:


> *is that she was young, dumb, had a temporary (albeit 6 months is not really temporary) lapse of character and moral judgement. *We started dating when she was 18 so did not get to experience other men. his is in no way excluding what she did but I do expect a coherent explanation and a deep understanding from her of how all this happened if we have any chance in hell of reconciling.


NO NO NO NO.... Don't let her fool you with the false argument that she was dump therefore her actions should've been justified!!!
She was TOTALLY concious and it was her 100% choice to go physical with him!

Why don't you get a polygraph?

{DO NOT QUOTE and LINK to posts/threads in the private member forum. There is a reason that they are in PRIVATE. Speaking as a moderator. EleGirl}


----------



## ABHale

A dose of reality.

Gym guy was her lover the guy she really wanted to marry but he wasn’t stable.

You were the stable guy that was going to be a great husband and father and she just had to keep you on the hook long enough for you to marry her and have kids with her.

The only reason she has told you now is because you’re married to her and have a kid together. Either you stay and try to mend fences or she gets child support for the next 18 years. Depending on your state she will get spousal support as well.

Don’t continue playing the fool, they had sex every time he showed up at the house. Why else would he be there when you’re not. The only times she might not of gotten her brains effed out was when it was her time of the month. Anytime gym guy showed up at the house he was always taken care of. 

She will never admit the full truth to you.

What in the world could she have told you to make you think nothing was going on? The total disrespect is secretly having another man in the house when you went to work should’ve been enough for you to have called it quits


----------



## AttaBoy

jksc11, your best friend right now would be an old phone of hers. Quietly see if you can locate it and run recovery software on it. You really have no clue what went on. And you were supremely naive then and you still are now. Good luck.


----------



## Jksc11

No old phones are around. 

I appreciate the advice but sense some of you guys get more pleasure out painting a picture that you don’t know. I do not trust her. She did horrible, possibly unfixable things to our our relationship. This is all true. 

I do know at least one person who is a close friend who cheated and they worked things out. They cheated and were forced to live with the guilt and have completely turned their life around. If I already believed redemption was impossible I would be asking for advice I’d be talking to a divorce attorney. 

Again I appreciate the advice but I don’t think graphic speculation about what more may have happened is useful. I am going to do everything in my power to find out if anything else happened. She told me they had sex 3 times! Could it potentially be more? Yes. But 3 times is enough to justify divorce if that’s the path I choose. People get divorced over much less. I do feel it’s extremely important to find out if anything has happened since then.


----------



## Marduk

Jksc11 said:


> No old phones are around.
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate the advice but sense some of you guys get more pleasure out painting a picture that you donâ€t know. I do not trust her. She did horrible, possibly unfixable things to our our relationship. This is all true.
> 
> 
> 
> I do know at least one person who is a close friend who cheated and they worked things out. They cheated and were forced to live with the guilt and have completely turned their life around. If I already believed redemption was impossible I would be asking for advice Iâ€d be talking to a divorce attorney.
> 
> 
> 
> Again I appreciate the advice but I donâ€t think graphic speculation about what more may have happened is useful. I am going to do everything in my power to find out if anything else happened. She told me they had sex 3 times! Could it potentially be more? Yes. But 3 times is enough to justify divorce if thatâ€s the path I choose. People get divorced over much less. I do feel itâ€s extremely important to find out if anything has happened since then.




Reconciliation is possible. 

But only from a place of truth, and only with someone that has regained their integrity. 

You’re in neither spot right now. 

My recommendations are above. I hope you consider them. They are there to protect you. From her, but also from yourself.


----------



## Casual Observer

Jksc11 said:


> No old phones are around.
> 
> I appreciate the advice but sense some of you guys get more pleasure out painting a picture that you don’t know. I do not trust her. She did horrible, possibly unfixable things to our our relationship. This is all true.
> 
> I do know at least one person who is a close friend who cheated and they worked things out. They cheated and were forced to live with the guilt and have completely turned their life around. If I already believed redemption was impossible I would be asking for advice I’d be talking to a divorce attorney.
> 
> Again I appreciate the advice but I don’t think graphic speculation about what more may have happened is useful. I am going to do everything in my power to find out if anything else happened. She told me they had sex 3 times! Could it potentially be more? Yes. But 3 times is enough to justify divorce if that’s the path I choose. People get divorced over much less. I do feel it’s extremely important to find out if anything has happened since then.


First, there seemed to be nothing out of the ordinary going on at the time she cheated. Very disturbing that she did so, er, without good reason. Not that there ever would be, but nobody's saying there was contributing behavior on your part that might make cheating easier to rationalize.

Second, and I think this is a very big deal that you'll think about for the rest of your life, how do you feel about being the "safe" choice? That could be more troublesome than you think. It might feel somewhat emasculating to think of yourself as the "safe" choice and wonder what she might wish she wasn't missing now. And later. Give this a lot of thought. Can you make being the "safe" choice a sexy thing? Because if you can't, you start wondering if lust and romance are a thing in your mind and not hers, and that can eat away at you big time, even decades down the road.


----------



## [email protected]

Truthfully, jksc11, I can't think of a good reason for staying with her. Bail now!


----------



## Stormguy2018

[email protected] said:


> Truthfully, jksc11, I can't think of a good reason for staying with her. Bail now!


I agree.


----------



## oldtruck

Need to STD test to protect your health.

Polygraph test to get the whole truth.

I could not live in the house where your WW banged her OM. Or keep any of the
furniture that they used. Trigger every time you come home from work to see
this is the house my WW banged her OM. Trigger every time you see the sofa
and the bed where they had sex on. I could never sleep on or sit on that
furniture.

Divorce or recovery, time to sell the house, and contaminated furniture to
remove these huge triggers.

Was the OM married or GF? Time to expose the affair to his wife/GF.


----------



## rugswept

This is a tough story you've told. "Gym guy" over to your residence regularly for months? And they had sex three times? That is total horsesh**. 

You do have a lot invested in this woman and in your situation. I won't say you should jump to anything at this point. Definitely DNA the child to make sure you're not raising the child of "gym guy". 

I'm really big on R. I think some situations can be saved. It has to start with you. You're really signalling that this is a near deal breaker. You're thinking you doubt you can really live with this. That's the starting point but don't give it up unless you know this is an irreversible deal breaker. If it is, move to D and get it over with. 

You have said she seems truly remorseful and is at least owning some of it. The reason I say some is that story about "three times" is complete horsesh**. It's probably more like bang bus. And just think, they had it all set up to do all this, after you went to work to keep your life going and "gym guy" didn't even have to pay for the hotel room. That is really disgusting and extreme betrayal. She has to start out by telling you the real truth instead of making up these fairy tales about "makeout sessions". "Makeout sessions" is what happens to people in junior high. Try to reassemble in your mind the events of that time, the missing pieces and assemble your own picture to see if it's even remotely similar to hers. Then get the real truth. Trickle truth (gradual truth over time), from her will kill any chance of R. Tell her it's time to get the real story out no matter what the consequences. 

If everything had really been good between the two of you and she's been nothing like that since "gym guy", and you have really strong feelings, this may not be a lost cause. I had some really big things to forgive that was in all likelihood much worse than your situation. It worked out for me, and yes, it is still with me in big ways decades later. it was extreme betrayal. You do have a life together and you felt it was good except for this cloud. Over time, you'll start to recover. I hit bottom 5 months out. No matter what, you have a very long road ahead of you. You have just gotten started on the long ride through hell on the emotional roller coaster. 

Good luck and we wish you the best.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

I agree with those who think she had sex far more than 3 times. This is just a story she's spinning to walk the narrow line between believability and forgiveability. She's still lying to you, actively disrespecting you. 

I know you don't want to get graphic, but do you remember all of those sexual favors you've asked from her for all these years? Those things she refused to do because she "just wasn't into that kind of thing"? Ask her if she did any of those things for him, and watch her turn white


----------



## Casual Observer

[email protected] said:


> Truthfully, jksc11, I can't think of a good reason for staying with her. Bail now!





Stormguy2018 said:


> I agree.


Maybe because they have a 1 year old kid? If it was 50/50 stay/go, aside from the kid, how could the kid not tilt the scale in terms of staying? How could the kid not be a major factor in general? Not saying that it would or would not be the correct decision to leave. Just saying that the kid could be a reason to stay.


----------



## BioFury

Jksc11 said:


> Again I appreciate the advice but I donâ€™t think graphic speculation about what more may have happened is useful. I am going to do everything in my power to find out if anything else happened. *She told me they had sex 3 times!* Could it potentially be more? Yes. But 3 times is enough to justify divorce if thatâ€™s the path I choose. People get divorced over much less. I do feel itâ€™s extremely important to find out if anything has happened since then.


A man wouldn't bother driving across town before work for sparkling conversation.

Consider this carefully dude. Not only did she meticulously plan and execute how she was going to cheat on you for half a year, but she wasn't honest when you caught her, and has continued to be dishonest even now. 3 times? Bollocks.


----------



## Lostinthought61

First of all you can not believe anything she says as the god honest truth....she is in a state of self-preservation so of course she is going to minimize the number of time they had sex...here is what i see is that you already jumped to the conclusion that you are staying in this marriage so forgive me for being bold here but you are already playing with a weak hand, before you decide anything you need to have answers (which may include asking for a polygraph if only to see if that 3 number is correct). She has been lying for 8 years and do you honestly think that now she is going to tell the truth...take our advice or don't, after all we are not married to her you are, but don't ask for advice and then condone us. We are here to talk from experience, many of us have been where you have been and others from where she has been. Right now, whether you believe or not have the power to ask anything you want and if she is serious about this marriage you need the whole truth and nothing but the truth...and make that a condition of staying married otherwise she will tell you the only what will keep you in this marriage...don't go weak. trust is earned not given. Remember she has pulled the wool over your eyes for 8 years...and i fear you want to keep it there, but this time with your own hands.


----------



## Spicy

I am pro-R whenever possible.

It’s a shame she is choosing to still lie to you.
She should have just said she had a 6 month affair, and that they were having sex.

Her still lying saying it was only 3 times does not bode well for R.

Do a poly on her immediately. She will probably spill the truth in the parking lot.

Sorry for you and your baby that you are here.


----------



## Music_Man

If you think there is any chance for reconciliation and if you want to walk the path of forgiveness for her, at LEAST do everything possible to find out EXACTLY what you are forgiving her for. If you don't feel you have the 100% full truth, any attempt at R will be short-lived and false, and you will have gained nothing but more heartache. 

You mentioned a polygraph. While I'm not sold on the science behind them, it did help in my case to hear the examiner say he detected no deception- from the machine or otherwise, and it also gave me a big sigh of relief that there was no parking lot confession. This is something I'd strongly consider in your case, given the time that has passed.


----------



## VladDracul

Jksc, I think the cleanest approach to reconciliation is to divorce, start "dating" again if both choose, and possibly remarry at some point. The remarriage after divorce wipes the slate clean so there is no justification for triggers, mind movies, and the like. The remarriage is de facto acceptance of past mistakes. That said, if I understand you correctly, you married her after discovering she had another guy on the side. Seems a little late for buyers remorse since you bought the product "as is" with full knowledge of what you were getting.
Regarding the "sex three times" over the life of the affair or three times a week (which is probably more likely) why would it matter at this late date, if her affair did stop after six months.


----------



## Oldtimer

Total disrespect, probably not just in the living room. It’s bad enough they did it in your house and I would bet on the bed you shared with her.

Think about it, handsy about 20 times before it happened? I have to call bull**** on that. Friend I was young once and if I had to be “handsy” more than once with a girl, I walked. 

I agree with everyone in saying that you are getting the tip of the iceberg and as one poster said, “ during a time that things were good for you”? What was so much better than being in a good relationship with a man she supposedly loved? Who made the first move, how was it decided that he come over when you were gone? 

Young man, so many questions to which you will never have answers to. 

We all have many psyches and limits to what we would do, but the bottom line question from my point of view and please take it as just that, my point of view, is why you would want to live with the mind movies, the triggers, the bull**** train for the rest of your married life? 

I wish you and your child well in your deliberations and hope for the best outcome for you all be it R or D.

OT


----------



## oldtruck

VladDracul said:


> Jksc, I think the cleanest approach to reconciliation is to divorce, start "dating" again if both choose, and possibly remarry at some point. The remarriage after divorce wipes the slate clean so there is no justification for triggers, mind movies, and the like. The remarriage is de facto acceptance of past mistakes. That said, if I understand you correctly, you married her after discovering she had another guy on the side. Seems a little late for buyers remorse since you bought the product "as is" with full knowledge of what you were getting.
> Regarding the "sex three times" over the life of the affair or three times a week (which is probably more likely) why would it matter at this late date, if her affair did stop after six months.


To be told it was just kissing.
Then it was sex just once.

The BH forgives.

Then after he finds out: that a strange car was over his house at least once a week for 6 months.
That WW banged the OM on his sofa and in his bed.
And as we know they rarely to never used condoms when there is an affair.
That WW had sex 25 to 100 times with the OM.

The BH did not forgive that.
Now the BH needs to burn a lot of his furniture and sell that house and move far away
to avoid triggering.


----------



## colingrant

It may or may not mean much to you, but you'd be really smart and not make the same mistake you made before and that is to believe her. You admit you were foolish to do so when you first caught her, so wouldn't you be foolish to believer her this time also? 

The difference between 3 times and 30 times, is her making the decision to betray disrespect you 27 additional times. That's a significant number that probably shouldn't be minimized. Yes, I'm projecting the 30 times, but it's not an unreasonable one, considering the length of time we're talking about and the frequency of your neighbor seeing him pull up. Additionally, why kiss when you can fk. That's what consenting adults do when they've gotten away with it and a bed is present. 

As you say, she robbed you of your ability to make a decision. It sounds as if you had an inkling but didn't want to face (and perhaps still don't) the reality of her infidelity knowing how life changing and destructive the truth would be. IF this is correct, she made the same decision, so in a sense both of you were guilty, although this doesn't in any way make it an equal choice of destruction. It's her actions that triggered this whole thing.

Divorce is typically seen as the end, but it doesn't have to be. You can file to divorce and decide to evaluate her remorselessness over time and if you are satisfied with the sincerity in which she takes actions that convincing, you can withdraw the divorce and continue on with her.

Or you can file for divorce and tell her you will date her exclusively or non-exclusively and evaluate her on her efforts to reclaim your respect. BUT more importantly, reclaim your own self-respect and dignity that's been GREATLY compromised, if not lost to some degree by having a wife who repeatedly disrespected and dishonored you, your marriage and your home, but having sex under the roof you under and the bed you sleep in. 

One can lose their soul in finding this information out, and sometimes the only remedy is to reformat the hard drive so to speak and reload a new operating system. You can either replace it with a new one, or have the old one fixed from the viruses that infested it. Right now, you, your marriage and home are infected with a virus that will not go away easy, hence your day to day existence will ALWAYS revert back to her egregious misdeeds. 

You may have to divorce and reconcile with her to obtain peace for yourself. A guy on on another site is doing just this, after being told by his wife, that her lover was better than him. She's eating her words now, as she wishes to reconcile. But her husband has divorced her and told her she'll to work her ass off to reclaim him, which is exactly what she is doing. But divorcing allowed him to live with himself. 

Personally, I had to brake off my engagement before I reconcile, which never happened by the way. Had I not done so, I'd never feel good about the fact that I stayed with my cheating fiance'. What's good for me isn't necessarily good for you, but I'm just telling you, it's extremely doubtful you'll be at peace with yourself without handing down extreme consequences for what was an extreme violation of your life and marriage.


----------



## Tilted 1

Jks, As you are feeling the emotions of an affair, as you assumed the board is in favor of divorce it is with great sadness that you believe this. It is with knowledge and personal experience of us, that the results of just what the mind can envision, what you are experiencing is called a mind movie. And just as she would not have divulged this prior to you catching them, would be continuing for who knows exactly how long. I gather you are in denial at the moment. But just as the 5 stages of grief will come and you will be in a different place. And as stated if you rug sweep this your mind may or may not have the ability to endure. 

Do continue to share what info you believe is relevant, that what in not so cautiously asking you about the acts themselves are trying to ask did she do things with the other man that she has not done with you? Because if so puts you in a different stage of the position of being a betrayed partner. Thus being frank and forward would expand possible advice. Truly we are all sorry you are here.


----------



## sokillme

So she has been having a six month sexual affair in your house probably in your bed? Let me ask you what do you think the rest of your life will be like being with someone like that? I get that your first instinct is to help her as her husband but she was very selfish you at least need to think about what the quality of your life will be moving on. 



> She told me they had sex 3 times! Could it potentially be more? Yes. But 3 times is enough to justify divorce if thatâ€™s the path I choose. People get divorced over much less.


And lied and watched you suffer for 8 years and is probably still lying to you. 

Your wife is a terrible wife and not a very nice person (to put it kindly). I can think about very few things that would be worse. Again what do you think the rest of your life is going to be like with someone like her. She has very deep seeded character flaws. 

I get I am being harsh but you need to wake up to reality of who you are with. 8 years of cheating if you include lying and preventing you from making and informed decision (kind of like a rapist I might add, yes it's that bad)? What are you saving? Why are you settling for someone to treats you like you without any concern for your emotional of physical safety of that or her own children? It's safe to say that unless you are one of the very very rare ones you will have a better life without her. She is not a safe or healthy choice.

Nothing in your story says your wife is even remotely a safe choice. I think it's a pretty safe bet she is still lying to you. Her feeling sorry about her consequences is probably the worst reason to stay together. All that means is she is not a monster. I personally believe that someone who can disrespect their partner so horribly probably has a history of doing so. I doubt this is her first rodeo. I think you have no idea what your wife's true nature is. A poly would be a must. What has she done in 8 years to really change, she didn't stop lying. If she doesn't fix her character she is just as much a risk for it happening again. I am always struck when this happens and people try to talk tough about how they are "thinking" of leaving? What-else would she need to do before you left her, physically abuse you? 

At the end of the day, as with all cheaters your wife's love for you doesn't have a loyalty component to it. She was able to act in a very callous way with little guilt and still lied to you for years. Again her love for you is about how it makes "her" feel, not about what is good for you. Is it even love at all? That makes it deficient and her dangerous.

Most people on this board think moving on is the best choice because we know from experience that in most cases and with people like your wife it's the wise thing to do. You chose to do the unwise thing last time and it just got you 8 more years of misery and in worse shape. Are you going to do that again? Their are 100s of thousands of other women out there.


----------



## wilson

Jksc11 said:


> She told me they had sex 3 times! Could it potentially be more? Yes. But 3 times is enough to justify divorce if that’s the path I choose. People get divorced over much less.


There's a huge difference between these two situations:

- An affair where they only had sex 3 times
- An affair where they had sex a lot of times but she lies that it was only 3 times

I agree that a smaller affair is easier to move past since it is more limited in scope. It sounds like you want to believe that since it will be easier to move forward. But it's very unlikely that's what happened. It sounds like you are trying to move ahead as if it was the first situation, but that's probably not reality.

Until you get the full truth, you won't be able to really be at peace. Some part of your brain realizes there is more to the story and it won't let you forget. You can pretend everything is okay, but some part of your brain will keep having doubts and it will influence your life and your marriage.


----------



## TDSC60

Jksc11 said:


> Regarding the paternity test. It crossed my mind and
> might be something I pursue. Especially if more recent events come to light. Our son is 1 YO. We were trying for a baby, she got pregnant when we were trying and he us a spitting image of me.
> 
> She tells me that we were/are in a happy relationship. That she started going to the gym and he was flirting. She resisted at first but that she began to reciprocate because it felt good to get the positive attention. Mind you were were in a good spot in our relationship at this time, or so I thought. Frequent dates, outdoor activities, week long trips to Mexico. I didn’t feel like anything was lacking. She goes on to say that at some point it was decided he come over to our house in the morning. *She admits she welcomed it and that she was an equal partner in making this happen. She goes on to say that the first few times nothing happened but it eventually turned physical and she continued to welcome it. She says she knew it was wrong but enjoyed the excitement and risky behavior. This continued one day per week for about 6 months, with her saying that the sex happened towards the end and happened the day I caught her*.
> 
> It was very cold and calculated. So alcohol to blame for bad decisions. Timing had to be right when I left but then leave enough time for her to get to work. I caught her because my neighbor said he had seen a man come into our driveway at regular times for the last several months, and thought I should know. In hindsight I should have kept that info and caught them but I was too caught up in finding the truth. I now realize doing this hampered me from getting the truth for several years and figured everyone comes clean when caught. She admits that she is not sure where it would have gone if I didn’t stop it.
> 
> She has been forthcoming with details I’ve asked that were painful to hear but that I had zero proof of. I am considering asking her to take a poly but part of me thinks that if I do that it really just signals the end of our marriage.
> 
> Her “why” is that she was young, dumb, had a temporary (albeit 6 months is not really temporary) lapse of character and moral judgement. We started dating when she was 18 so did not get to experience other men. This is in no way excluding what she did but I do expect a coherent explanation and a deep understanding from her of how all this happened if we have any chance in hell of reconciling.


She welcomed it and wanted the high of attention and risky behavior. If you had not caught her, it would have kept on. Why did it happen? Because she wanted it. Simple.

The question you have to answer for yourself is are you better off with her or without her as your wife?

What happens the next time some random guy gets flirty with her? Will she again welcome it and keep the secret?


----------



## sokillme

TDSC60 said:


> She welcomed it and wanted the high of attention and risky behavior. If you had not caught her, it would have kept on. Why did it happen? Because she wanted it. Simple.
> 
> The question you have to answer for yourself is are you better off with her or without her as your wife?
> 
> What happens the next time some random guy gets flirty with her? Will she again welcome it and keep the secret?


Yeah there are some very good posts on this section of the board that explains the mindset of the type of women OP's wife is. It would be wise for him to read it.


----------



## jsmart

Sex 3 times over 6 months when she’s sneaking him into your house when you leave for work? A man being invited to a married woman’s house after the husband left for work, fully understands that this woman is DTF. 

She said the 1st few times they just talked is pure BS. I would bet it was physical before OM even stepped a foot in your house. They were probably kissing and handsy at a local park in the car before she gathered the comfort to take the party to your house. 

If you would read the threads on this site you would see that WWs are almost always very wanton. Now that you know some of the details, do you not want to know what it actually is that you’re forgiving or in your case rug sweeping? 

To say it doesn’t matter if it was 3 or 30 is a lie you’re telling yourself out of codependency. Besides the number of times they had sex, don’t you want to know if she performed acts that she has turned you down on? We have countless threads of BHs that thought they were forgiving a few sessions of vanilla sex to later learn that OM was getting porn star sex with every act on the menu, including acts that she had shamed her husband for wanting. 

So you need a timeline and to have her take Poly to prove it’s accurate and you better get a DNA to make sure you’re not raising another man’s child.


----------



## sokillme

jsmart said:


> Sex 3 times over 6 months when sheâ€™s sneaking him into your house when you leave for work? A man being invited to a married womanâ€™s house after the husband left for work, fully understands that this woman is DTF.
> 
> She said the 1st few times they just talked is pure BS. I would bet it was physical before OM even stepped a foot in your house. They were probably kissing and handsy at a local park in the car before she gathered the comfort to take the party to your house.
> 
> If you would read the threads on this site you would see that WWs are almost always very wanton. Now that you know some of the details, do you not want to know what it actually is that youâ€™re forgiving or in your case rug sweeping?
> 
> To say it doesnâ€™t matter if it was 3 or 30 is a lie youâ€™re telling yourself out of codependency. Besides the number of times they had sex, donâ€™t you want to know if she performed acts that she has turned you down on? We have countless threads of BHs that thought they were forgiving a few sessions of vanilla sex to later learn that OM was getting porn star sex with every act on the menu, including acts that she had shamed her husband for wanting.
> 
> So you need a timeline and to have her take Poly to prove itâ€™s accurate and you better get a DNA to make sure youâ€™re not raising another manâ€™s child.


Besides the sex this women has had almost a decade of complete disdain for her husband and the father of her children. For almost a decade she made no decisions about their relationship with any concern for how they would affect him at all. Even when she lived right next to him and saw him suffering. This is who he is dealing with, not being young and dumb. Besides that like being young somehow explains having a six month sexual affair in the home you share with your husband. Talk about setting the bar low. Basically all she has done is say the words I am sorry and this is the thing that makes her a good candidate to R. Has she read books, went to and IC, felt deep seeded shame for how she abused the primary person in her life? Why has she not hit rock bottom? Does she even get it? 

How could she possibly be a good choice to stay married to.


----------



## Marduk

Polygraphs are like nukes.

They are weapons of last resort, and mean that any attempt at diplomacy or resolution of trust is over for good.

They mean the relationship is at an end as far as I’m concerned, and since they don’t provide good evidence for honest answers, they are only good for parking lot confessions in front of the polygraph office before you go in.

If you need to have a lie detector test to continue the relationship, then the relationship is already over.


----------



## Marduk

sokillme said:


> Yeah there are some very good posts on this section of the board that explains the mindset of the type of women OP's wife is. It would be wise for him to read it.



His, too. He swept this under the rug once.

It seems like he’s found himself in a Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell open relationship with some kind of awareness of what happened. I very much doubt this is her first or last time at this, and even if it is, there’s no way to tell.

I just hope he sees his decisions for what they are.


----------



## sokillme

Marduk said:


> His, too. He swept this under the rug once.
> 
> It seems like he’s found himself in a Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell open relationship with some kind of awareness of what happened. I very much doubt this is her first or last time at this, and even if it is, there’s no way to tell.
> 
> I just hope he sees his decisions for what they are.


I think the thing that makes people like this women so dangerous is their general lack of empathy, and ability to conceal her nature. I always wonder if they really have a concept of what love is at all. I don't know how you can understand love and do something like this. But then there is also the very obvious and almost universal consistency of having no idea or concern for the concept of loyalty. I am always struck that even the most contrite WS really never speak of this, it's like it doesn't even exist in their minds.


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

DNA the child,polygraph the wife. Then you decide what to do when you have all answers.


----------



## sokillme

One more thing, I believe understandably most Betrayed Spouses spent way to much time researching the details of the affair and they tend to put too much weight on those details as the deciding factor on staying in the marriage. Now of course the details are important but the details should be uses in conjunction with the details of their spouses Character. That Character even more so, should be paramount in the decision to continue the marriage. The spouse's Character as well as what the BS can reasonably expect the quality of their life will be moving foreword. 

The decision should not be made if everything goes right and the Wayward spouse is the best they can possibly be (which is an assumption that some poster's advice seems to be based off of). But given what the WS track record says about their general emotional development what is the reasonable expectation that they will understand the issues on an emotional level and will have the fortitude and dedication to institute the changes needed to become a good partner. 

Then there is the actions taken during the affair, while all affairs are disrespectful some are downright callous and even hostile. Given that fact what are the chances that in the long run when the shock and trauma pass the relationship itself will end up feeling demeaning and disempowering. In other words what will the quality of your life be moving forward. It's a mistake to get caught up in just the details.


----------



## Marduk

sokillme said:


> I think the thing that makes people like this women so dangerous is their general lack of empathy, and ability to conceal her nature. I always wonder if they really have a concept of what love is at all. I don't know how you can understand love and do something like this. But then there is also the very obvious and almost universal consistency of having no idea or concern for the concept of loyalty. I am always struck that even the most contrite WS really never speak of this, it's like it doesn't even exist in their minds.


My experience from my ex wife a couple decades ago, many conversations with therapists that I trust, many books, and TAM itself is that:

For some people, everything only exists in relationship with them. Meaning, I really only existed to my ex wife as something that could help her get stuff she wanted (money, nice stuff, excitement, a big wedding, etc), or only existed as a barrier to what she wanted (sex with other guys, going out and partying, even more expensive stuff). I wasn't a person that existed outside of her, I think - I was just a thing to be used. She was like that with most people.

I don't think that's all cheaters, but I think it is many. And I think it's even more common when cheaters are in the fog of cheating - the high that comes with attention, sex, and getting your ego stroked by more than one person. It makes it plausible and reasonable in their minds for at least a time that they don't have to live in the real world - they get to have their cake and eat it too.

I hate to suggest reddit, but I did find it extremely enlightening to read the /r/adultery sub, for example. It's a pretty mind-opening, if disturbing viewpoint into the cheater's mind as they contemplate and execute an affair. You can actually see people coaching each other on how to have an affair, how to hide it, and how to fake a reconciliation so they can have another one - and how to continue the delusion that it's all ok. They're proud of it over there.

Again - not all cheaters are like this. There are examples of someone having a fling, immediately regretting it, and confessing straight away repentantly. These are not what I mean, and I don't want to be overly broad brushing this.


----------



## VladDracul

oldtruck said:


> That WW banged the OM on his sofa and in his bed.



I think my suspicions would have peaked when I had to re-tighten the screws on the kitchen table every couple of weeks.


----------



## Marduk

sokillme said:


> One more thing, I believe understandably most Betrayed Spouses spent way to much time researching the details of the affair and they tend to put too much weight on those details as the deciding factor on staying in the marriage.


The problem with asking for details about the affair or even why they cheated in the first place is that they've already demonstrated that they lack integrity and lie, so why believe it's the truth at all?

Plus, they are often heavily prone to rationalization - which means that it's common for a cheater to retroactively make up reasons why they cheated to begin with. How many times have you heard the old line that "our marriage was never good" when it's news to the betrayed spouse?

Asking for details is good, because you may get a better idea of what happened, but you need to accept that you will likely only get a very small portion of what happened. You can use it to judge their ability to be introspective and understand what they did. I like to recommend the cheater write out a full timeline of what happened. It helps both sides get some perspective, and gives the betrayed the ability to fact check with other sources to see if they're somewhat being honest. But beyond that, the betrayed needs to get very comfortable with never being sure if they're going to reconcile.

But I agree it's irrational to suddenly believe someone that's been lying to you, when you're getting the answers you want, or can at least attempt to live with. That's the easy, convenient path.


----------



## Tasorundo

Jksc11,

If you come back to this thread, there are going to be a lot of posts in here that will upset you. I am sorry for that, but I do think it is something you need to process through.

How can you forgive someone when you don't know what you are forgiving them for? How can you move past the betrayal if you don't understand the extent of it. Unfortunately, there is not a chance in hell she is telling you the truth. The reality is that they had sex way more often then that, most likely from the first time he came to your house. In most rooms, in most positions, and in ways that you and her likely haven't. That is the unfortunately reality of affairs.

You can read though hundreds of stories on this website, and that is how 99% of them play out. While I would say you don't need to obsess about details, I think you need to understand why she isn't telling you the truth. She will likely phrase it as she is protecting you from the hurt. In reality, she is trying to protect herself from the shame. Shame that she needs to process through, and hurt that you need to process through.

If your feelings were so important, you wouldn't be having this discussion.

There is simply no way to successfully move on, without a real autopsy on the corpse of your marriage.


----------



## niceguy47460

I just really wonder if you caught her cheating before you got married why the hell did you marry her . I would have dropped her like a rock then .


----------



## Deejo

Going to give you my standard ... presume the worst. Presume they did things you and she haven't ... because she definitely is NOT going to share that. The details didn't much matter to me in the scheme of things. It was the lying.

My bottom line is that you should be prepared to make a decision fully understanding that you don't and probably won't ever have everything. 

Also suggest taking your time. The walking wounded here generally want swift, immediate action or retribution. Life seldom works that way.

Try to get clear on what you will and will not accept. If you want to reconcile, but this is eating you away inside, then I'd say follow your gut. Reconciling serves no purpose if 1, 2 or 10 years down the line, the only thing fueling your relationship is resentment and mistrust.

If you wish to reconcile, be VERY, VERY, clear and specific on what needs to happen in order to heal and recover. If you don't have a plan ... you shouldn't be talking about reconciliation. Rug-sweeping, and hysterical bonding are very common in this phase of discovery as the wayward feeling like the bottom of their world is about to drop out, will take extreme measures to avoid that, including commitment to you, or overtures of sex and bonding.

I'll emphasize, you need to be driving the decisions for your life at this moment ... not her.

Tell her she needs to find somewhere else to live for a few days while you clear your head. Whatever you do, I don't recommend that you leave the home at this time.

Sorry this happened to you. Know that you very much, are not alone.


----------



## Kamstel

Even if you stay married, how could you stay in that house????? At the very least I’d have to move!

I would also suggest have her take a polygraph to see if she has told you the whole truth.

Good luck


----------



## MAJDEATH

Others have rebounded from worse situations than this. You two were not married at the time this happened, just playing house. Most will tell you to run, but I advocate some assessment. A lot can happen in 8 years, and contrary to some opinions people can change. 

You will never get the whole truth, but just knowing that boundaries were crossed is enough. A better question might be "what conditions or framework was present that may have contributed to this occurance?".

If you decide to continue, perhaps a warning that something like that can never happen again, or she leaves with nothing.


----------



## VladDracul

"You two were not married at the time this happened, just playing house."

I'm with you on that Major. The time for assessing the extent of her "misdemeanors" was right after he caught her with her britches down and before her married her; not nearly a decade and a kid later. At some point he had to figure it washed off well enough buy the bush and the surrounding real estate.


----------



## Jksc11

I returned home today to find a fairly lengthy letter she had written. In it, she began a dialogue about how this happened. She did not try to justify it in any way but seemed the process of looking within to see how this happened had at least started. She ended by saying that the decision to stay or go was mine and mine alone and I could have whatever space I needed to figure this out. She said that once the affair was over she was disgusted with herself about how selfish she was. She admits that keeping the truth from me was also selfish. I don’t like or accept the reason for not telling me, but she said that once the affair was over, she realized the seriousness of what she had done, realized what we had was too important to lose so kept it a secret. This is, of course, a very self serving reason but a reason nonetheless. 

She is not asking for trust and admits that it’s impossible for me to trust her at this point. She outlined some vague guidelines about what could happen to regain trust. Things like “Transparency in words and actions”. Admittedly, these plans need to be fleshed out some more before I’d look at them seriously. She (and I ) agree that even the most well thought out “how and why it happened” wont do much to ease my pain, but I want her to reflect on this so she can come to terms with who she is, how she got into this mess. I’ll never accept that there was a valid reason it happened, and she readily admits that I didn’t deserve this and that the only meaningful explanation was a lack of morals and integrity, and a sort of “high” she got from it. The letter was confusing in that there were reasons it happened but she ultimately said none of those reasons were good enough for her to have ever done this to us. 

I am not rushing into any decision. I am seeking individual counseling and we are going to go together once a week. The counselor said to give it 3-4 months. Make an honest effort at reconciling if that is what we want and see where the relationship is in 3-4 months. They said it’s normally crystal clear by then if a marriage will survive this in that timeframe. I plan on trying to find the tools for some level of forgiveness. Not for her right now but for me as I’m averaging about 3 hours of sleep per night, not eating enough etc. Regardless of the outcome I need to get to healthier place for my own wellbeing. 

She said she’d take a polygraph. I am not a huge believer in them. Being in and having friends who are in public service has given me the knowledge that people VERY regularly beat them during their pre-employment background check. I may schedule one and see if she is willing to follow through or if it forces any additional info into the open, but if she took one I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in the validity of the results. 

She had given me full access to email accounts and social media. She is going to use the “share your location” feature in her phone so I can see where she is at all times. I moved all of the money that I saved in our joint account to my personal account in case things go sideways. 

I hear everything you guys are saying about there is always/usually more than a person will ever know. When this happened in 2011 we had a smaller version of this present day crisis. It was known then that at the very least it was an emotional affair. She stopped going to that gym the day she was caught, I monitored her texts, emails for many months and overall our relationship was good. However superficial that greatness may have been since there was continued lying about what really happened, I did see a change in her back then. There were some girlfriends she stopped hanging around, her self esteem improved and she became more accountable for her actions and words. I don’t say these things to minimize what she did at all! She was a monster during this time period. I do believe in the idea of redemption and that people can change. If I didn’t I wouldn’t be eating my time even considering a reconciliation. I have seen personal friends go through this and genuinely change. I struggle with this I am confronted with absolutely horrible behavior from the woman who stood by me when I was laid off for time period, when I changed careers and went through schooling and intense training academies. We are incredibly compatible on every level and this affair, albeit a huge effing issue, is the only major issue we’ve ever had. I have confided in some close friends and family who know both her and I well and they have all been utterly shocked to learn this, but all have said that what we have NOW (beautiful baby boy, house, good jobs) is worth fighting for assuming she is willing to do what it takes to regain trust. 

I am going to talk to counselor about the idea of loyalty to a marriage versus co-dependence. Broken things can be fixed, but it needs to be a real meaningful fix that comes from a place of honesty. 

Not that it makes any difference either in terms of seriousness but some responders were mentioning this happening when we were married. It happened while in a serious relationship but not yet married. We have not lived in the house that it happened at in many years.


----------



## dubsey

You should tell her she needs to move out - go live with a friend/relative/parent, whatever for a while. You need space and you don't think that you should have to leave.

Even if you don't really feel that way. It will more or less force her to tell people why she moved out.

If she's truly regretful for what has happened, she shouldn't have much of a problem with this.


----------



## manwithnoname

Not sure if I missed this, but who ended it?


----------



## VermiciousKnid

From the first post I know you’re not going to make it. Why? Because she’s still lying. 3 times my ass. If she’s still lying then she’s not remorseful and reconciliation is guaranteed to fail.


----------



## Marduk

Jksc11 said:


> I returned home today to find a fairly lengthy letter she had written. In it, she began a dialogue about how this happened. She did not try to justify it in any way but seemed the process of looking within to see how this happened had at least started. She ended by saying that the decision to stay or go was mine and mine alone and I could have whatever space I needed to figure this out. She said that once the affair was over she was disgusted with herself about how selfish she was. She admits that keeping the truth from me was also selfish. I donâ€t like or accept the reason for not telling me, but she said that once the affair was over, she realized the seriousness of what she had done, realized what we had was too important to lose so kept it a secret. This is, of course, a very self serving reason but a reason nonetheless.
> 
> 
> 
> She is not asking for trust and admits that itâ€s impossible for me to trust her at this point. She outlined some vague guidelines about what could happen to regain trust. Things like â€œTransparency in words and actionsâ€�. Admittedly, these plans need to be fleshed out some more before Iâ€d look at them seriously. She (and I ) agree that even the most well thought out â€œhow and why it happenedâ€� wont do much to ease my pain, but I want her to reflect on this so she can come to terms with who she is, how she got into this mess. Iâ€ll never accept that there was a valid reason it happened, and she readily admits that I didnâ€t deserve this and that the only meaningful explanation was a lack of morals and integrity, and a sort of â€œhighâ€� she got from it. The letter was confusing in that there were reasons it happened but she ultimately said none of those reasons were good enough for her to have ever done this to us.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not rushing into any decision. I am seeking individual counseling and we are going to go together once a week. The counselor said to give it 3-4 months. Make an honest effort at reconciling if that is what we want and see where the relationship is in 3-4 months. They said itâ€s normally crystal clear by then if a marriage will survive this in that timeframe. I plan on trying to find the tools for some level of forgiveness. Not for her right now but for me as Iâ€m averaging about 3 hours of sleep per night, not eating enough etc. Regardless of the outcome I need to get to healthier place for my own wellbeing.
> 
> 
> 
> She said sheâ€d take a polygraph. I am not a huge believer in them. Being in and having friends who are in public service has given me the knowledge that people VERY regularly beat them during their pre-employment background check. I may schedule one and see if she is willing to follow through or if it forces any additional info into the open, but if she took one I wouldnâ€t put a lot of stock in the validity of the results.
> 
> 
> 
> She had given me full access to email accounts and social media. She is going to use the â€œshare your locationâ€� feature in her phone so I can see where she is at all times. I moved all of the money that I saved in our joint account to my personal account in case things go sideways.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear everything you guys are saying about there is always/usually more than a person will ever know. When this happened in 2011 we had a smaller version of this present day crisis. It was known then that at the very least it was an emotional affair. She stopped going to that gym the day she was caught, I monitored her texts, emails for many months and overall our relationship was good. However superficial that greatness may have been since there was continued lying about what really happened, I did see a change in her back then. There were some girlfriends she stopped hanging around, her self esteem improved and she became more accountable for her actions and words. I donâ€t say these things to minimize what she did at all! She was a monster during this time period. I do believe in the idea of redemption and that people can change. If I didnâ€t I wouldnâ€t be eating my time even considering a reconciliation. I have seen personal friends go through this and genuinely change. I struggle with this I am confronted with absolutely horrible behavior from the woman who stood by me when I was laid off for time period, when I changed careers and went through schooling and intense training academies. We are incredibly compatible on every level and this affair, albeit a huge effing issue, is the only major issue weâ€ve ever had. I have confided in some close friends and family who know both her and I well and they have all been utterly shocked to learn this, but all have said that what we have NOW (beautiful baby boy, house, good jobs) is worth fighting for assuming she is willing to do what it takes to regain trust.
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to talk to counselor about the idea of loyalty to a marriage versus co-dependence. Broken things can be fixed, but it needs to be a real meaningful fix that comes from a place of honesty.
> 
> 
> 
> Not that it makes any difference either in terms of seriousness but some responders were mentioning this happening when we were married. It happened while in a serious relationship but not yet married. We have not lived in the house that it happened at in many years.




This is a very good start and I commend you getting this far. 

Try to eat healthy foods, get some kind of light exercise, and keep doing whatever hobbies make you happy. This will help you maintain some equilibrium through this. 

Take your time. I still encourage you to stop having sex with her for the time being, sleep alone, and reduce emotional conversations right now with her to a minimum. You need to have a clear head. Hysterical bonding is a serious rationality killer. 

The only thing I’d add right now is to get an STD test. Your health could be on the line here, man. I’d encourage her to do the same. 

Her letter is a nice gesture and appears to be attempting to take some kind of accountability, but I wouldn’t take it for anything more than a nice gesture. 

Again, so sorry you are here.


----------



## sokillme

She realized the seriousness of what she had done after it was over? Is anyone that dumb? 

Seriously dude, this is the best you can do? You want to spend the rest of your life with this person? What kind of life are you going to have? 

Just once I would love a BS to say, OK I will stay with you but I get to have an open marriage and you have to be faithful now. That would be more then fair because at least the person fooling around would have a reason and be honest about it. 

Or tell her when she gets old or you get bored you get to go have some fun. Again pretty much the same attitude. 

They always want to be transparent after the fact. 

Sorry again I am being too harsh but spare us from people like your wife, they are just the worst. 



> I struggle with this I am confronted with absolutely horrible behavior from the woman who stood by me when I was laid off for time period, when I changed careers and went through schooling and intense training academies. We are incredibly compatible on every level and this affair, albeit a huge effing issue, is the only major issue weâ€™ve ever had.


This is like saying, I have this perfect car but it has no engine. Ok whatever dude, yeah she is great. You realize most healthy marriages have those things and their spouses don't bring other people into there house to have sex with when they are not home.

One more thing, how would you know your relationship was good, you didn't know she was cheating. How can it be good when she didn't respect you enough to tell you the truth for almost a decade? She brought another man into your house for 3 months and lied to you about it while you suffered for 8 years? She is not even telling you the truth now. What are you trying to salvage here? Who treats someone they claim to love like that?

Besides that what is all the extra characters in your post.


----------



## [email protected]

Her reaction is way too passive. She's not doing the hard work, she's avoiding it.


----------



## lovelygirl

sokillme said:


> Besides that what is all the extra characters in your post.


:scratchhead:

Yeah I was wondering the same... 


OP, as for her letter, it does sound a bit theoretically/politically correct, but not practically correct. 

Her vague excuses/reasons for why this really happened, leave me thinking she wants to get away with minor injuries by hoping you'll be over this issues a.s.ap. 

She said you didn't deserve it, but still went through with it. I still think she's not THAT preocupied wether you'll R or not and she doesn't fully understand/realizes the damage she's done to you (morally, psychologically, ethically, ...etc). 

What has she _*specifically*_ done so far to make you think she understands how grave this was? Simply ... by apologizing and writing letters?


----------



## Marduk

[email protected] said:


> Her reaction is way too passive. She's not doing the hard work, she's avoiding it.



She could be realizing how badly she’s handled this and be devastated and confused, or it could be an attempt to band aid her mistaken confession while she’s in damage control. 

Odds are high it’s the latter, but it could be the former. 

Odds are also high if he gives this space and investigates further, or even thinks about his relationship history objectively, he’ll remember other red flags that he overlooked - just like the first time. 

Cheaters that do it when the relationship is good and just do it for the attention rarely just do it once. She’s still trickle truthing him about this one guy alone, which means she still isn’t being honest, which means that reconciliation currently needs to be off the table. 

He needs space, he needs rest, and he needs some peace of mind to process this.


----------



## Tasorundo

Jksc11, tell her that if she wants to stay married, to tell you the truth.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

manwithnoname said:


> Not sure if I missed this, but who ended it?


THAT is a great question. Unfortunately I'm not sure OP will hey an honest answer.


----------



## Jksc11

Who ended it?

Essentially, I did by catching them and confronting it. 

The next day, my wife called and told him what happened, that it should have never happened and that there could be no future contact.


----------



## Marduk

Tasorundo said:


> Jksc11, tell her that if she wants to stay married, to tell you the truth.



Ultimately, the only question he’s going to have to ask is how she married him without telling him what she did. 

He isn’t going to get any answers to that by asking her. He’s going to get rationalizations, half truths, and expressions of love cried through crocodile tears. 

He’s going to have to answer that one himself. And the only answer there is to that question is that she married him without telling him because she doesn’t love him and never did. 

You can’t love someone - not truly - and allow them to commit their life to you, make children with you, and open their whole being to you while withholding something like that about yourself. You can’t want them to be happy above all else. You can’t want the best for them. You can’t be their partner and the one to have their back. 

She can’t, because she knows she’s none of those things, and yet she did it anyway. She did it, because she got what she wanted from him. Stability, attention, whatever it was. And she loved what she got from him or that she provided, but she didn’t love him. 

He needs to come to this on his own. He’ll do it through this process, or he’ll do it at 3AM 20 years from now if he allows this one to be swept under the rug like it was before. 

I do not see another answer. I’d be happy as hell to be wrong.


----------



## Marc878

She's cheated early on in the honeymoon phase. The capability is there. What happens 10, 15 years from now? Although I'm not a believer in once a cheater always a cheater but repeats do happen.

Bud, you tend to make excuses, live in denial, etc. I suspect you'll stay and a very good chance you'll get to go through this again.

The best predictor of the future is past history.

You've got what you've got I doubt anything will change your future.


----------



## lovelygirl

Marc878 said:


> She's cheated early on in the honeymoon phase. The capability is there. What happens 10, 15 years from now? Although I'm not a believer in once a cheater always a cheater but repeats do happen..


I just think OP was the safe bet.

Typical. 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


----------



## manwithnoname

Jksc11 said:


> Who ended it?
> 
> Essentially, I did by catching them and confronting it.
> 
> The next day, my wife called and told him what happened, that it should have never happened and that there could be no future contact.


From your previous post regarding her note: "She said that once the affair was over she was disgusted with herself about how selfish she was. She admits that keeping the truth from me was also selfish."

You have to consider the fact that _she_ did not end it. If you did not catch them it would have continued until you did.

The fog kept her from feeling disgusted with herself while she was having fun. What will prevent another fog from rolling in and clouding her mind, filling it with selfishness?


----------



## VladDracul

It seems these questions on whether to reconcile or not to reconcile, getting the full story, the timing of her "fessing up", et cetera, are treated like the so called D-day was recently. Am I wrong believing her affair happened nearly a decade ago, before they married, with him entering the marriage with full knowledge of her affair? Or does that matter? If the question he's dealing with is whether to divorce or reconcile, my perspective is that he did reconcile, after discovery, and all these years later he's woke up to the fact he just went along out of expediency rather than prudence. My question is why, eight years after the fact, he's now having a problem with his decision marry her after he became aware of her shenanigans. I think there may be a little more to this story than I'm understanding.


----------



## manwithnoname

VladDracul said:


> It seems these questions on whether to reconcile or not to reconcile, getting the full story, the timing of her "fessing up", et cetera, are treated like the so called D-day was recently. Am I wrong believing her affair happened nearly a decade ago, before they married, with him entering the marriage with full knowledge of her affair? Or does that matter? If the question he's dealing with is whether to divorce or reconcile, my perspective is that he did reconcile, after discovery, and all these years later he's woke up to the fact he just went along out of expediency rather than prudence. My question is why, eight years after the fact, he's now having a problem with his decision marry her after he became aware of her shenanigans. I think there may be a little more to this story than I'm understanding.


First post, first two paragraphs. It was years ago but she gaslighted him into believing it was only an EA, then a few weeks ago more came out.

And likely more still to come.


----------



## VladDracul

I see what you're saying, Manwithnoname. I can't help but wonder why he knew the potentials when a guy is regularly visiting your house and your girl after you leave and essentially gaslighted himself. I understand women well enough to know that when they are sharing themselves, either/both emotionally or sexually with another guy, their romantic interest in you ain't what it should be. He apparently knew it to but chose to ignore it, perhaps to avoid hard decisions and change. He admitted believing it was at least an emotional affair. 
In the final analysis, I believe the confirmation of her sexual exploits was hard for him to hear but I don't think he was surprised. My question is why he's waited eight years to get serious about confirming his suspicions, and possible ditching her azz because of it, and why he chose to proceed with the marriage when he knew she had more than a superficial interest in this guy. He's pretty much created the hell he's living with. I think we all believe this thing is likely to get much worse as her shenanigans are more realistically disclosed. Like my granddaddy use to say, "The more stir shyt, the worse it stinks".


----------



## TJW

I'm not quick to encourage people to divorce. I strongly believe you have "grounds" if this is what you choose.

Only you can know if this is what you want to do. Most of us here BTDT. I chose not to legally divorce, but there wasn't any reconciliation, it was an emotional divorce.

You are the "safe bet", just like @lovelygirl said. And, also, like @lovelygirl said, "typical". Many of us are blessed to not be a POSOM, but a dependable, faithful, sacrificial man who becomes a good husband and father. If you're anything like me, you will so totally resent having to be these things for her that your choices will become clear.


----------



## rugswept

You've pretty much got commentary from about every viewpoint. This is your show, this is your life, this is about your future. 
Personally I think you buried it the last time and you're on the way to burying it again this time. That may be your subconscious decision. 

I'm really big on R. The only advice I can give is this: is she really remorseful about all this? Or is it self defense and survival reactions? 

She either doesn't ever want to cause you pain like this again or she doesn't. In her past actions she's made light of everything, everywhere. 
That continues. Hey, she's probably just trying to bury her past, ashamed of her behavior that she can't even admit to. 
She's far from a rotten serial cheater. She went off the rails badly with the whole "gym thing". She obviously wanted attention and got it. 
It might actually be a huge relief to her that the PA is finally out.

If she's really done with this cheating junk and you can accept that she's done wrong but that was then and this is now, you've got a good chance to make it. 

If the life you've had since the big mess has really been about you, her and your child, then you have to strongly consider the value of that. 
Take your time and communicate more with her, about how she feels about what was, is and what you both want it to be. 

This is all about you, nothing else. These posters, rough as they can be, are really just trying to get to the final whole picture. 
They took me apart when I first came here. The really tough stuff that they said was a lot more accurate than I really wanted to first admit. 
It caused me to take a really hard look at things that had been buried for decades in my own situation. In retrospect, it was very helpful. 

For you, this is your chance to excise the demon. 

Good Luck.


----------



## oldtruck

VladDracul said:


> It seems these questions on whether to reconcile or not to reconcile, getting the full story, the timing of her "fessing up", et cetera, are treated like the so called D-day was recently. Am I wrong believing her affair happened nearly a decade ago, before they married, with him entering the marriage with full knowledge of her affair? Or does that matter? If the question he's dealing with is whether to divorce or reconcile, my perspective is that he did reconcile, after discovery, and all these years later he's woke up to the fact he just went along out of expediency rather than prudence. My question is why, eight years after the fact, he's now having a problem with his decision marry her after he became aware of her shenanigans. I think there may be a little more to this story than I'm understanding.


He made his decision on trickle truth. He was lied to by his WW to be.
All these years have been based on a lie.


----------



## Mybabysgotit

Jksc11 said:


> My wife and I have been together for 14 years. Married for the last 5 years. In 2011, when we had been together already for 6 years, I discovered that she had been having a man from her gym to our house once a week for approx 6 months. I was an absolute fool to believe her claim that they had not had sex. He was coming over to our house in the early morning right after I left for work. Through her lies and my wanting to believe her, I believef that it was an emotional affair only This bothered me a great deal and I have not fully trusted her the past 8 years....knowing deep down I had not received the full story. It should be noted that I have had to have serious conversations with her over the last 8 years to discover what actually happened and was lied to every time. I was in a deep denial and took her word. Like I said we are now married with a one year old son. Our relationship has always been good to great except this one very major issue.
> 
> Fast forward to two weeks ago. We were approaching our 5 year anniversary and the nagging suspicion was getting stronger than ever. I started a conversation with her and calmly told her that I KNEW there was more to the story and that I needed to know. She finally had the guts to tell me something resembling the truth. She admitted that they would frequently make out and that it lead to sex in our living room “3 times”. No new evidence had been introduced but I think she finally realized the truth needed to come out and that I wasn’t going to accept the same old answer.
> 
> I am absolutely destroyed. I wish I had of left her back then when my gut told me to. The stakes are so much higher now that we are married, have a child together and own a home. I am fairly certain this is going to be the end of us, but also realize I need to process this and make my decision in a clear state of mind. We have both been going to counseling...together and individually. Our relationship and marriage have been an otherwise happy one. Great sex life, similar interests, sense of humor, work well together. That may be what makes it so hard to understand how and why this happened.
> 
> Since last week she has appeared to be extremely remorseful, feeling the full weight of her decision to cheat and lie to me for 8 years. Her claim that she did not tell me because she wanted to protect our relationship and me is basically what I’ve got from her as to why it took this long to tell me. I am still waiting on a coherent story as to why all this happened and why she did not tell me the truth when it happened, before we married or before we started a family. I feel like I was robbed of the choice to exit the relationship at major, life altering crossroads like marriage and starting a family.
> 
> I am torn between the fact that she committed an utterly disgusting act(s) by cheating nearly 2 dozen times in our home. Her story is that they made out and got handsy about 20 times. She is adamant that sex occurred 3 times, though I question that number it it seems low when she admitted to making out around 20 times. So it was not a one time thing where someone quickly realizes the mistake and ends it. I caught them and that’s how it stopped. It very likely would have continued longer had I not put s stop to it. She did end it quickly when they were caught and says no contact in 8 years. The fact that all this occurred IN OUR HOME hits me especially hard too....it just seems like the absolute lowest thing a person can do.
> 
> As I said our 14 years together have been mostly great except for this very large cloud that has hung over us the last 8 years. I am trying to see a path towards reconciliation assuming she continues to be forthcoming, remorseful and transparent but I am am having a hard time believing that this won’t eat me up if I stay with her. Trust is non existent and the mental image of her doing these things keeps me up every single night. It was not a one night stand but a 6 month long affair in every level....emotional and physical.
> 
> I know the dominant opinion on this board is to divorce her immediately. Divorce is very much on the table and she knows that. I also realize that divorce is not the easy button either and has implications of its own that create unhappiness down the road. My son is my primary concern. I am fearful of staying in the marriage and becoming bitter and resentful and having it end a few years from now. I am worried it could happen again, although as I said I do genuinely feel she had bettered herself in the last 8 years and has come to terms with the damage and pain she inflicted on us. I also fear that a hasty decision to divorce her could leave me wondering if we could have worked things out....for ourselves and for our son.


You were not married when this all went down and you knew about it and still got married after. That in itself is an expression of forgiveness. Your wife counted on that forgiveness with probably the biggest decision of her life, to marry you, and now you want to get a divorce? wtf man, are you crazy? I ****ed around a lot when my wife and I were dating and to think she would now, after 15 years of marriage, say "oh man, remember that time you....." so "i want a divorce". Sounds crazy right? You probably screwed around also during the courtship, that's life man.

Don't be a fool, drop it and move on. Now if she has given you any reason to believe she's been unfaithful to you during your marriage, then deal with that, but not something that happened 9 years ago when you weren't married. 

I believe that whatever happened before marriage should not be discussed and that's why I never understood men talking to their wives about past sexual relationships. Who cares?


----------



## lovelygirl

Mybabysgotit said:


> I ****ed around a lot when my wife and I were dating and to think she would now, after 15 years of marriage, say "oh man, remember that time you....." so "i want a divorce".


Just because you and your wife were NOT exclusive while dating, doesn't justify OP's wife _*cheating*_ prior to marriage.
Having consented to non-exclusive dating is WAY DIFFERENT from dating behind someone's back.
What you and your wife did was *multi-dating. *What OP's wife did was *CHEATING! *
2 different situations.

And just because you were OK with your wife sleeping around with different men, doesn't mean OP should've been OK too - especially when he had NO IDEA that his back-then GF was not exclusive to him.


----------



## Mybabysgotit

lovelygirl said:


> Just because you and your wife were NOT exclusive while dating, doesn't justify OP's wife _*cheating*_ prior to marriage.
> Having consented to non-exclusive dating is WAY DIFFERENT from dating behind someone's back.
> What you and your wife did was *multi-dating. *What OP's wife did was *CHEATING! *
> 2 different situations.
> 
> And just because you were OK with your wife sleeping around with different men, doesn't mean OP should've been OK too - especially when he had NO IDEA that his back-then GF was not exclusive to him.


Completely missed my point. My point was he married her AFTER he found out and that by itself is an act of forgiveness. How can you not understand that?

What my wife and I did was an afterthought. It had nothing to do with the main point, but yet that's all you got out of the post.

Rude and insulting portion redacted by the moderators.


----------



## wilson

Mybabysgotit said:


> Completely missed my point. My point was he married her AFTER he found out and that by itself is an act of forgiveness. How can you not understand that?


He didn't find out about sex until after they were married. He thought it was just an EA at the time. I believe this is the timeline:

2005 - They begin dating
2011 - She has gym guy come over for 6 months
2011 - Jks finds out, but is told some bogus story about EA only
2012-2014 - Jks asks for details and she says EA only
2014 - Married
2014-2019 - Jks asks for details and she says EA only
2019 - She admits gg was handsy 20 times and they had sex 3 times

So if it the truth was it was an EA and he had all the details back in 2014, then it could be valid to say that he was okay with it. But now all these much worse details come out, and he now knows she lied the whole time. With all the new info, it's acceptable to do a reset on the relationship and figure out how to proceed.


----------



## ABHale

Jksc11 said:


> Who ended it?
> 
> Essentially, I did by catching them and confronting it.
> 
> The next day, my wife called and told him what happened, that it should have never happened and that there could be no future contact.


The only thing I don’t like about this is how long would it have gone on if you didn’t catch them?

I really can’t understand how someone could do this to someone they are supposed to love. 

I will second or third time apart from one another. You do need the space and you don’t need the constant reminder of what went on. Work something out that works. It will be hard with the little one but you really do need the space. 

Be careful with your counselor, if they try and push that you should just forgive or that it is partly your fault.


----------



## Marduk

wilson said:


> He didn't find out about sex until after they were married. He thought it was just an EA at the time. I believe this is the timeline:
> 
> 2005 - They begin dating
> 2011 - She has gym guy come over for 6 months
> 2011 - Jks finds out, but is told some bogus story about EA only
> 2012-2014 - Jks asks for details and she says EA only
> 2014 - Married
> 2014-2019 - Jks asks for details and she says EA only
> 2019 - She admits gg was handsy 20 times and they had sex 3 times
> 
> So if it the truth was it was an EA and he had all the details back in 2014, then it could be valid to say that he was okay with it. But now all these much worse details come out, and he now knows she lied the whole time. With all the new info, it's acceptable to do a reset on the relationship and figure out how to proceed.


The only thing I'd add is that I think she's slowly admitting more happened. I mean, six months of weekly visits likely must equate to dozens or hundreds even sexual encounters at minimum. Just do the math, that's 72 visits. If she's even being honest about the frequency, which I'm struggling with.

The guy didn't keep coming over for six months of nothing, with sex 3 times at the end of the affair. That just doesn't track for me. It's possible I guess, just very improbable.

Nor does it track for me that she did it while happy in the relationship just because the guy gave her attention... and that she never did it again, with him or anyone else, for almost a decade. Again, it's possible I guess, just very improbable.

I don't think he's gotten nearly to the bottom of this yet. It was a long-term affair, and the reasons she states for having it are basically the reasons that serial cheaters say they cheat - the ego stroke and the thrill of it.


----------



## VladDracul

ABHale said:


> I really can’t understand how someone could do this to someone they are supposed to love.


Let the ladies speak for themselves, but most women couldn't. Her romantic interest and respect for their relationship was at low tide. I think "J" will find out she had serious problems and doubts about the future of their relationship before that buzzard started circling his house waiting for him to leave.


----------



## lovelygirl

Mybabysgotit said:


> Completely missed my point. My point was he married her AFTER he found out and that by itself is an act of forgiveness. How can you not understand that?


As @wilson pointed out...he didn't know the cheating went PA. He thought it was just EA. He didn't have the full story back then! 

So YOU completely missed the point of this thread.

Terrifying comprehension levels, you.


----------



## Marduk

ABHale said:


> I really can’t understand how someone could do this to someone they are supposed to love.


You can't. Period.

If she actually loved him - which means she wants the best for him - she wouldn't want him to be with her after that. Because she knew she wasn't able to be the best person for him. So she didn't love him. It's not possible. So at minimum, she married him not loving him. To me, that is irrefutable. 

She may love him now, which is why she told him almost a decade later. Or she may have slipped up. Or she may just have wanted to relieve her guilt, or she may have just grown tired of being pestered about it.

I'm not sure any of that matters at this point.


----------



## lovelygirl

Marduk said:


> The guy didn't keep coming over for six months of nothing, with sex 3 times at the end of the affair. That just doesn't track for me. It's possible I guess, just very improbable.
> 
> Nor does it track for me that she did it while happy in the relationship just because the guy gave her attention... and that she never did it again, with him or anyone else, for almost a decade. Again, it's possible I guess, just very improbable.


Yep! totally agreed!

Something's missing... I mean, MANY details are missing!


----------



## Jksc11

Marduk, I realize there are still likely things that I do not know, but the frequency of visits to our home is one area I’m fairly certain of. The neighbor that tipped me off said it was once per week, starting and ending during a 6 month period. His home office where he worked full time out of looked at my driveway so he saw and heard every car that came and went. Could he have missed it a few times? Yes. Could they have been meeting elsewhere? Absolutely. I intend to try to find that out. However by my math....6 months times 4 times per month at our home equals 24 times. There were times when we were both out of town during this 6 months where they would have not had the opportunity to meet up during some of these weeks. I also know when she started going to this gym so she would have had no prior contact with this person before that. I do intend to dig deeper on whether there was any contact with this man after I confronted her. She maintains that there was not and I was monitoring her email, phone log and texts during this time. 

I am not minimizing this at all but I believe it’s a bit of a stretch when you start throwing around the idea that they had sex “hundreds” of times.


----------



## oldtruck

Mybabysgotit said:


> You were not married when this all went down and you knew about it and still got married after. That in itself is an expression of forgiveness. Your wife counted on that forgiveness with probably the biggest decision of her life, to marry you, and now you want to get a divorce? wtf man, are you crazy? I ****ed around a lot when my wife and I were dating and to think she would now, after 15 years of marriage, say "oh man, remember that time you....." so "i want a divorce". Sounds crazy right? You probably screwed around also during the courtship, that's life man.
> 
> Don't be a fool, drop it and move on. Now if she has given you any reason to believe she's been unfaithful to you during your marriage, then deal with that, but not something that happened 9 years ago when you weren't married.
> 
> I believe that whatever happened before marriage should not be discussed and that's why I never understood men talking to their wives about past sexual relationships. Who cares?


Did your wife know that you cheated on her before you married her?
Does your wife know now that you cheated on her back then?


----------



## Marduk

Jksc11 said:


> Marduk, I realize there are still likely things that I do not know, but the frequency of visits to our home is one area Iâ€m fairly certain of. The neighbor that tipped me off said it was once per week, starting and ending during a 6 month period. His home office where he worked full time out of looked at my driveway so he saw and heard every car that came and went. Could he have missed it a few times? Yes. Could they have been meeting elsewhere? Absolutely. I intend to try to find that out. However by my math....6 months times 4 times per month at our home equals 24 times. There were times when we were both out of town during this 6 months where they would have not had the opportunity to meet up during some of these weeks. I also know when she started going to this gym so she would have had no prior contact with this person before that. I do intend to dig deeper on whether there was any contact with this man after I confronted her. She maintains that there was not and I was monitoring her email, phone log and texts during this time.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not minimizing this at all but I believe itâ€s a bit of a stretch when you start throwing around the idea that they had sex â€œhundredsâ€� of times.




First of all, sorry. I was juggling some financial numbers in my head while posting, and I got the math wrong. I apologize, stupid mistake. 

Secondly, I will say that 24 times with sex 3 times means they got together on the sly 21 times with absolutely nothing happening. 

Even in my wildest woman chasing days, I never chased anyone for that long with nothing happening for me. 

To be totally clear - I don’t think the exact number matters. I don’t think 3 times vs 5 vs 24 or 72 times matters at the end of the day except as a demonstration of how far the affair went. 

To me, it’s not about a witch hunt for exact numbers. It’s a quest for honesty. Because I think it’s far more likely right now that she’s in damage control and minimizing how far this affair went than it is that she’s being totally transparent with you after a decade of lying to you. Does that sound plausible to you? 8+ years of lies with sudden total honesty? 24 visits with sex 3 times? 

So I think it’s on her to be honest. I don’t think she’s there yet. 

I think it’s on you to take your time, take some self care, and to answer for yourself the core question I think that needs to be asked: why did she marry you without telling you? That’s not for her to answer, it’s for you.


----------



## jsmart

The issue with minimizing the number of sexual encounters is that it continues the secret that keeps a wedge between the 2 of you. She probably is afraid that you'll leave if you know the full truth. 

I said in an early post that they probably were physical before he stepped into your house. It probably took her a while to develop the comfort level and courage to take their rendezvous to your house. It's very likely they were spending time together in their cars or a local park.

You said the neighbor saw a man going to your house once a week after you left for work so you assume that was the only time they were getting together but knowing how affairs partners usually can't keep apart from each other. I would believe that they may have had encounters at his place or local parks. It probably a safe assumption that they were having sex every time they got together. With this POS probably showering with her afterward. 

Read the threads to see the trend. WWs are usually very wanton with their OM. Don't think he was getting the vanilla sex she gives you. The confessions that i've read, they see themselves playing a role. With OM, she not a wife and a mother. With the OM, there is no "I can't do that, he'll think I'm a ..." No with the OM they enthusiastically embrace that role with every sex act being on the menu. 

I'm writing this not to hurt you but to get you to really dig deep and fully find out what it is you're forgiving. We get so many BHs here who rush to rug sweep before they have all of the fact and sometimes before the WW is even showing regret, let alone remorse. We sometimes get these men coming back a year or 2 later to write about their emotional pain they still feel and how their wife may have stopped her cheating but she's far from loving wife. We have countless BH who have to suppress their feelings because their "FWW" is tired of hearing about the past but these guys are fearful to become part time dads.

During this affair, did your wife cut you off sexually? If not was it curtailed to occasional duty sex?


----------



## alte Dame

It's the lying. Years of lies. She now admits that she was protecting herself by lying. At least that's something.

She has finally unburdened herself and will feel renewed because she came clean. Unfortunately for you, her relief is your pain.

It takes years to come to terms with infidelity. Years. This isn't something that gets 'handled' in a few months. And after a few years, people in reconciliation very often say that they don't trust their spouses and have lost respect, love, and attraction for them.

You got married on the basis of lies. Give yourself some real time to gauge your feelings about it. They will evolve. Don't commit to R right away. She felt OK stealing all that time from you. Now you can give yourself the gift of time to make a decision about a situation that offers no ideal solutions.


----------



## lovelygirl

jsmart said:


> .... they probably were physical before he stepped into your house. It probably took her a while to develop the comfort level and courage to take their rendezvous to your house. It's very likely they were spending time together in their cars or a local park.
> 
> You said the neighbor saw a man going to your house once a week after you left for work so you assume that was the only time they were getting together but knowing how affairs partners usually can't keep apart from each other. I would believe that they may have had encounters at his place or local parks. It probably a safe assumption that they were having sex every time they got together. With this POS probably showering with her afterward.


I do agree with this. 

To even take and develop the courage to bring OM at your house, means hot-stuff encounters had happened way before OM coming to your place. 
Actually, I think they wanted to take their affair to another level, to make it more THRILLING and spicier and so .... using your place and your bed made them want to even sex each-other up more!!

So, the encounters at your house were not the beginning of the affair. It must've started way before then, somewhere else. 
The comfort-zone of you not finding out made them courageous enough to transfer it to your house.


----------



## Mybabysgotit

lovelygirl said:


> As @wilson pointed out...he didn't know the cheating went PA. He thought it was just EA. He didn't have the full story back then!
> 
> So YOU completely missed the point of this thread.
> 
> Terrifying comprehension levels, you.


Are you that dense that when a neighbor of yours is pointing out to you that they had seen a guy come over to your house many times after you leave for work and think it's an EA? really? so no, I didn't miss that point.


----------



## ABHale

Jksc11 said:


> Marduk, I realize there are still likely things that I do not know, but the frequency of visits to our home is one area Iâ€™m fairly certain of. The neighbor that tipped me off said it was once per week, starting and ending during a 6 month period. His home office where he worked full time out of looked at my driveway so he saw and heard every car that came and went. Could he have missed it a few times? Yes. Could they have been meeting elsewhere? Absolutely. I intend to try to find that out. However by my math....6 months times 4 times per month at our home equals 24 times. There were times when we were both out of town during this 6 months where they would have not had the opportunity to meet up during some of these weeks. I also know when she started going to this gym so she would have had no prior contact with this person before that. I do intend to dig deeper on whether there was any contact with this man after I confronted her. She maintains that there was not and I was monitoring her email, phone log and texts during this time.
> 
> I am not minimizing this at all but I believe itâ€™s a bit of a stretch when you start throwing around the idea that they had sex â€œhundredsâ€� of times.


Maybe not hundreds of times, but they more then likely did every time he was over at the house. Also could have after a workout or in place of one. Not that it really makes a difference how many times they did it. The fact is she lied about it and continued to do so until years later. 

The thing is you don’t know if anything she is telling you is the truth other then she had at least one PA.


----------



## TDSC60

Jksc11 said:


> Marduk, I realize there are still likely things that I do not know, but the frequency of visits to our home is one area Iâ€™m fairly certain of. The neighbor that tipped me off said it was once per week, starting and ending during a 6 month period. His home office where he worked full time out of looked at my driveway so he saw and heard every car that came and went. Could he have missed it a few times? Yes. Could they have been meeting elsewhere? Absolutely. I intend to try to find that out. However by my math....6 months times 4 times per month at our home equals 24 times. There were times when we were both out of town during this 6 months where they would have not had the opportunity to meet up during some of these weeks. I also know when she started going to this gym so she would have had no prior contact with this person before that. I do intend to dig deeper on whether there was any contact with this man after I confronted her. She maintains that there was not and I was monitoring her email, phone log and texts during this time.
> 
> I am not minimizing this at all but I believe itâ€™s a bit of a stretch when you start throwing around the idea that they had sex â€œhundredsâ€� of times.


Sorry but it seems so simplistic that they only met once per week at your house.
What about meetings at the gym?
In the parking lot?
Did she have any nights out supposedly with girl friends?
Did she go shopping and stay gone a little longer than normal?
Did she have a job during this time? Lunch hour?
Were you away over night during that time?
Do you know who the guy was? Did he have a place of his own? Where?


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Rats...double posted...


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Jksc11 said:


> This continued one day per week for about 6 months, with her saying that the sex happened towards the end and happened the day I caught her.


And if you believe THAT steaming pile of bull****, then I have some oceanfront property in Oklahoma I'd like to sell you.



> It was very cold and calculated. So alcohol to blame for bad decisions.


How does alcohol fit into ANY of this? I mean, cheaters try to use that excuse all the time, but how the hell is she trying to use *this* as an excuse when the guy was coming around your house in the MORNING? Would she have you believe they were pounding down shots at 9 am just so she would be too drunk to know what she was doing to you with her actions (yeah, sure) and then she'd leave for work - drunk?? Is that what she'd have you believe?

Again, if you believe THAT steaming *load of bull*****, then I have a bridge I'd like to throw into our real estate deal as well.

And let me tell you, this woman wouldn't know what remorse IS if you slapped her in face with it. She's a remorseless *liar* who planned on taking her dirty secret to the grave with her. If she had an *ounce of remorse* she would have come to YOU and confessed instead of lying through her teeth year after year after year after year after year....


----------



## Jasel

You should float the idea of a polygraph and see how she reacts.


----------



## Jksc11

Meant to say alcohol was NOT involved. That she made these decisions in a clear state of mind. 

I have questioned her on the 3 times. She admits it was more than 3 times. 

We are going to the counselor tomorrow morning and she is writing a full timeline with details. The counselor talked to her and basically said that if she is going to be dishonest at this point that we should just save our time and money and separate. I showed her that I had researched attorneys, I moved all the money from our joint account that I had saved and told her that a judge can tell me how much she gets. It completely ruined her....crumpled up on the floor crying, but I think it struck a chord as to how serious this is and what the consequences will be if I discover any more lies. We have also had some very civil, but serious conversations about how how any reconciliation has to begin with truth, that she is not going to hurt me any more than she already has with additional details. That there is no way to trick the process and that lying st this point means giving up. She SEEMS to get it. I dunno. I believe I will know tomorrow if she shows up with a coherent story what my path will need to be.


----------



## Tasorundo

Sorry man, but glad you stood up for yourself, its the only way forward.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Her comment about not commenting on additional details troubles me a lot....it is her job to give you every detail you want regardless of the outcome....have you asked if she did things with him that she has not done with you?


----------



## Kamstel

I’m sorry, but I do NOT think she gets it yet. I think she gets that her lifestyle is in danger at this moment and she is trying to figure out a way to save it with as little harm to her as possible.

Great job separating the money and researching lawyers. Don’t let her sweep this under the rug.

Go luck and stay strong.


----------



## Jksc11

No I have not asked that and quite honestly I’m not going to. I don’t believe that’s really a productive conversation to have that would help me in any way.


----------



## Tasorundo

Jksc11, just a warning about this place. There are going to be people who will post that will say there is nothing she can ever do to show 'true remorse' that you can never believe her, that she can never get better, that you will never get over it and on and on it goes. They will tell you everything she says is a half truth and you should never look back as you run.

You have to make your own decisions, you have to decide how you feel about it all, and you have to decide what you want to know and what you don't. The things that people will say in here will tear you apart if you let them. Deal with your reality and try to separate it from their fantasy.


----------



## [email protected]

Usually there should be a timeline and accurate details as clearly as possible. Without them trickle truthing seems to arise.


----------



## Jksc11

Tasorundo, yes I noticed that and I’m not paying attention to their comments. I have received some great advice here but there seems to be some people who like to wallow in misery and do not believe in redemption. I am approaching this with the perspective that I want a positive outcome. I am doing this for our marriage and my son. It has to be built upon trust, of course, but if I thought she was incapable of that or pure evil I wouldn’t be asking for help.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Jksc11 said:


> I have received some great advice here but there seems to be some people who like to wallow in misery...


To be fair, some of the happiest people I've seen in here are the ones who've moved on. They talk about how happy they are with their new partner, and how they didn't realize what they were missing.


----------



## skerzoid

The ’ thingies are apparently a Mozilla coding problem. Just so you know. At least that's what it said when I looked it up. However, I am writing this on Mozilla right now with no problems.


----------



## jsmart

Now that you're laying down consequences, she's starting to wake up. Right now she's going to be in preservation mode so even though she now admits it was more than 3 sexual encounters, she's still going to try to control the flow of info because she's afraid to let it all out. 

You need to really brace yourself because this most likely was a very intense sexual affair. I'm not just referring to the number of times they had sex but about the sex acts. Prepare for the sting of finding out she probably performed very wanton acts that she may have denied you or may have stopped performing. VERY common. Also, I think you're going to find that it was longer than the 6 months that neighbor noticed POS was going to your house. Like I said earlier, it's VERY likely that it was physical before she brought him to your house.

I asked you earlier because I didn't see you mention this but did she cut you off sexually or greatly reduce your access to her body during this period? If so, then that's usually an indication that she also was "in love." Many times the WW will convince herself that what she has with OM is special and they usually start to rewrite the marital history to justify their betrayal. She'll build up OM to be some great quality man, and tear down her husband as cold, unloving and some even go as far as to say the husband is abusive. 

BTW: how has your marriage been since this stopped? Has she been a good and loving wife and dedicated mother? Something tells me she hasn't been. How could she with this big secret.


----------



## Jksc11

Jsmart, 

Sex life had never changed and always been very good. 

Aside from this she has been a very good wife the last 8 years. Supported my decision for career change, many great times, we work well together, and a very caring mother to our son. Maybe that’s why I’m a little stuck. Besides this incident (and this is a very big deal, I get that) we have had a very happy 14 years together.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Jksc11 said:


> Meant to say alcohol was NOT involved. That she made these decisions in a clear state of mind.
> 
> I have questioned her on the 3 times. She admits it was more than 3 times.
> 
> We are going to the counselor tomorrow morning and she is writing a full timeline with details. The counselor talked to her and basically said that if she is going to be dishonest at this point that we should just save our time and money and separate. I showed her that I had researched attorneys, I moved all the money from our joint account that I had saved and told her that a judge can tell me how much she gets. It completely ruined her....crumpled up on the floor crying, but I think it struck a chord as to how serious this is and what the consequences will be if I discover any more lies. We have also had some very civil, but serious conversations about how how any reconciliation has to begin with truth, that she is not going to hurt me any more than she already has with additional details. That there is no way to trick the process and that lying st this point means giving up. She SEEMS to get it. I dunno. I believe I will know tomorrow if she shows up with a coherent story what my path will need to be.


Well the alcohol thing NOW makes sense - thanks for clearing that up. 

However, you keep confusing *REGRET* with remorse.

Sure, she *regrets* what she did because look at the **** storm she's now dealing with. So of COURSE she's going to cry and whine and claim that she 'gets it.' But what she "gets" is that you're angry with her crap behavior and her lying all these years and that she's going to have to dance real hard in order to get back into your good graces. The crying is for HERSELF, not for your pain (even though she'll lie her ass off and claim that it is). *The woman doesn't have an ounce of remorse.*

This is all about self preservation for her! EVERYONE acts like this when it's time to pay the fiddler and they're about to lose something they don't want to lose. Why do you think she's lied to you all these years? To avoid exactly what she's dealing with right now! And that just means she has no remorse at all. This isn't rocket science and she's not unique in any way.

But it's *NOT* remorse. It's simply her doing everything she can to protect her own sorry hide.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Kamstel said:


> I’m sorry, but I do NOT think she gets it yet. I think she gets that her lifestyle is in danger at this moment and she is trying to figure out a way to save it with as little harm to her as possible.


Also known as completely *REMORSELESS* and it's all about self preservation for her.

You said it so more eloquently than I did.


----------



## oldtruck

Sometimes arguing the difference between remorse and regret is pointless.
The point is that they now realize that what they did they should never have done.


----------



## TDSC60

She lied to you then.
She tried to trickle truth you now.
You still do not know the extent of her affair.
You don't know when or how it started.
You don't know the facts of how many times they had sex or what type of sex.
I find it hard to believe that they stayed on the sofa for six months and did not go straight to your bed.
I doubt that once a week at your house was the only time they had sex or met up.
I doubt that they suddenly stopped when you originally confronted her. More likely they found another form of communication and moved location of meeting up. 

How can you trust her when you do not know what you are expected to accept and forgive? The first thing you need to process this is total truth. She has not been truthful for 8 years and she is not doing it now.

You will not want to hear this, but, since you had no idea what was not going on for at least six months until your neighbor mentioned the unusual activity at your house, how can you be sure this was the first or last affair?

I am afraid you have betrayal blindness. You must have had a gut feeling even back then that something was not right. But you loved this woman too much to investigate. You knew then and know now that if you accepted that she happily chase sex with another guy it could cause a lot of pain and hurt and you would have to act. You feared the truth and could not accept it. Because if she was cheating before you married you would have dumped her. So you accepted the sanitized version of an EA and moved on. But your subconscious knew that was a lie and that little nagging doubt was always in the back of your mind.

You have to look inward and decide if you can survive the truth. If you can forgive her for cheating and lying for 8 years. Don't let the blindness rule. Find yourself an individual councilor to help you work on yourself.

If you admit it or not you will always have doubts about what she tells you. How could you not? 

A polygraph might be the only way you can be sure of anything.


----------



## alte Dame

It is human nature for waywards to:

- Lie during/after/about an A.
- Practice self-preservation by admitting only as much truth as they think they have to = continuing to lie.
- Act selfishly by 1) deciding that they are entitled to an A, and 2) not thinking about the BS's feelings during/after an A.
- Regret being caught.
- Not really feel remorse, since remorse requires empathy and selflessness, and an A happens by the WS backgrounding the BS into, at best, an irritation.

As a BS, your natural impulses are to do what you need to do to protect your persona and pride. You:

- Twist yourself up to believe that 'it was only.....', even though you know deep down inside that she is still lying.
- Tell yourself that you have a line in the sand, but when she crosses it, you move the line because you simply can't manage the emotional pain of splitting up.
- Try to convince yourself that she is now finally telling the truth - even though she is still lying.
- Believe that her lies were to protect your family, when you must know that they are pure self-preservation. She wanted him then. She wanted to stay in the relationship with you. She wanted a family with you. She, she....
etc.

There is a natural arc to the experience of infidelity. People here are trying to put you ahead by pointing out what they know to be the normal course of events.

She is making some of the right noises, in my opinion, but is nowhere near remorse. I think you are getting trickle truth, i.e., she is admitting to some more, but not giving you the entire truth. Her next protective move will be to tell you that it happened so long ago that she just can't remember the details that you want to know. To this we can tell you that newly honest waywards have admitted that they, in fact, do remember, often quite vividly because the A was exciting.

Your therapist sounds reasonable. Neither you nor your therapist should assume that what you are hearing is THE TRUTH. It is almost certainly just part of the truth. (For example, you think she ended it when you busted her. I would bet that they were in contact after that.)


----------



## alte Dame

P.S. - It is also human nature to feel like a fool when betrayed in this way. Doing everything you can - including taking off the blinders - to determine the truth gives you the best chance of not being made a fool of in the next eight years of your marriage.

If you feel like she made a fool of you, you will probably gradually lose respect and love for her, something that dooms the M in most cases.


----------



## syhoybenden

This bears repeating.


TDSC60 said:


> How can you trust her when you do not know what you are expected to accept and forgive?


----------



## Jksc11

Regarding the difference between regret and remorse. I understand what many of you are saying. I don’t think it’s something that’s instantly knowable. It will be something that her actions and words show. She tells me that she is incredibly sorry for the hurt this caused me and our marriage...that there is no excuse for what she did. Essentially she is telling me that she regrets it AND is remorseful. I’m not taking this st face value but I also don’t think it’s an either or scenario. Can’t a person feel both those things? I believe I would if I was in her shoes. 

We are both going into a counseling session in 30 minutes from now where she is going to present a detailed timeline. I asked that it include relevant info like dates and frequency. I believe that it will either be a coherent, realistic account of events or it will not. 

I also asked that she write some kind of narrative about the entire thing, not focusing on dates and specific events but more on her motivations, how she felt about him, and I during this time. I don’t believe this will be fun for me to hear but again, I’m looking for a coherent story that shows she has genuinely reflected on what occurred and has come to terms with the magnitude of this.


----------



## SunCMars

Jksc11 said:


> I also asked that she write some kind of narrative about the entire thing, not focusing on dates and specific events but more on her motivations, how she felt about him, and I during this time. I don't believe this will be fun for me to hear but again, I'm looking for a coherent story that shows she has genuinely reflected on what occurred and has come to terms with the magnitude of this.


Between you and me, she would be a fool to be overly honest. To say that she loved him, that she loved the way he made her feel during love making would be too much for any husband to hear.

Expect her downplay everything, forget not, she does not want to lose you.



LMc-


----------



## Marduk

Jksc11 said:


> Meant to say alcohol was NOT involved. That she made these decisions in a clear state of mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I have questioned her on the 3 times. She admits it was more than 3 times.
> 
> 
> 
> We are going to the counselor tomorrow morning and she is writing a full timeline with details. The counselor talked to her and basically said that if she is going to be dishonest at this point that we should just save our time and money and separate.



This sounds like a good counsellor. Exactly what ours said.

It’s not about the number, its about honesty - if you’re going to rebuild it has to be a solid foundation you’re pouring.

She’s still lying. I suspect you’re about to find out a lot more, so brace yourself.

Just like you should expect that she will continue to lie about stuff. She’s terrified, deservedly so.

I would put a hard limit on it. Like, if by the end of the week you lie about another man (keep it that broad, she’ll likely get very legalistic with you) - it will immediately be over. She must disclose it all up front.

Buckle up man, it’s going to get worse before it gets better. 

Please remember to discuss other men since you started dating exclusively. Be that wide ranging. Don’t just focus on this guy.


----------



## Marduk

Jksc11 said:


> Jsmart,
> 
> 
> 
> Sex life had never changed and always been very good.
> 
> 
> 
> Aside from this she has been a very good wife the last 8 years. Supported my decision for career change, many great times, we work well together, and a very caring mother to our son. Maybe thatâ€s why Iâ€m a little stuck. Besides this incident (and this is a very big deal, I get that) we have had a very happy 14 years together.



It’s been a work of fiction. A pleasant one, but a fiction nonetheless.

Imagine what may have happened if you hadn’t caught her. 

Think carefully about your relationships and any red flags you may want to explore. Now is the time.


----------



## Marduk

Jksc11 said:


> Regarding the difference between regret and remorse. I understand what many of you are saying. I donâ€t think itâ€s something thatâ€s instantly knowable. It will be something that her actions and words show. She tells me that she is incredibly sorry for the hurt this caused me and our marriage...that there is no excuse for what she did. Essentially she is telling me that she regrets it AND is remorseful. Iâ€m not taking this st face value but I also donâ€t think itâ€s an either or scenario. Canâ€t a person feel both those things? I believe I would if I was in her shoes.
> 
> 
> 
> We are both going into a counseling session in 30 minutes from now where she is going to present a detailed timeline. I asked that it include relevant info like dates and frequency. I believe that it will either be a coherent, realistic account of events or it will not.
> 
> 
> 
> I also asked that she write some kind of narrative about the entire thing, not focusing on dates and specific events but more on her motivations, how she felt about him, and I during this time. I donâ€t believe this will be fun for me to hear but again, Iâ€m looking for a coherent story that shows she has genuinely reflected on what occurred and has come to terms with the magnitude of this.



Expand this beyond this guy, or this particular affair. Expand it to the whole relationship.

Let’s say she had another fling, with the same guy or someone else. And you find out. She could plausibly say “You only asked me about this guy” or “You only asked me about this affair.” 

One of the protective modes people do is to get extremely legalistic with their explanations, and try to find loopholes. It’s another form of dishonesty.

She doesn’t understand the magnitude. She only understands that she got caught for something she thought she got away with. It will take her months or years to process the magnitude of her decisions.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Sorry you are going thru this, is going to be a life altering experience for you no matter which route you take, and you didn't have any say on it.
Learn to accept you cannot trust a word she says and assume that it was worse than she said, as it usually is (like they had sex in your marital bed, not a living roo.m)
Focus on you, your morals, and boundaries and what you want or not want in your life... Best of luck


----------



## oldtruck

SunCMars said:


> Between you and me, she would be a fool to be overly honest. To say that she loved him, that she loved the way he made her feel during love making would be too much for any husband to hear.
> 
> Expect her downplay everything, forget not, she does not want to lose you.
> 
> 
> 
> LMc-


There is a difference between being honest and being brutal.

I loved when the OM banged me, honest and brutal.

I enjoyed the sex with the OM. Having sex is enjoyable, is honest without being brutal.

A WS should never be brutal.


----------



## TDSC60

Did you get the timeline?

If so - do you believe it?


----------



## Jksc11

Yes I did get a timeline...how it started, how it progressed, occurences and how it was broken off. It’s the version that makes sense. Was not easy to hear but in many ways it was a relief for the both of us to finally put it all on the table and look at it for what it was. We are continuing weekly counseling to see if we can make progress


----------



## TDSC60

Jksc11 said:


> Yes I did get a timeline...how it started, how it progressed, occurences and how it was broken off. Itâ€™s the version that makes sense. Was not easy to hear but in many ways it was a relief for the both of us to finally put it all on the table and look at it for what it was. We are continuing weekly counseling to see if we can make progress


Did she ever say why she did it? Does she still claim it was only once a week at your house only? And only 3 times led to sex? Good luck.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but you should consider doing a paternal DNA test on your son. It's a cheap kit you can buy. It will either give you peace of mind or expose a whole other side of her.


----------



## [email protected]

Well, jksc11, maybe I shouldn't say it, but I'll say it anyway. Maybe the guy at the gym is in better shape than you, or has a better physique. If so, you are NOT going to get the truth. It could be that physically, you are plan B and lover-boy is plan A. Just saying!


----------



## stillthinking

She has put you in a tough position.

She got to have her fun. Put some memories in her spank bank. Lied to keep you around. Got you to marry her under false pretenses. And had your child. So in effect she has been shrewd (or just plain lucky) in her planning and successful in her execution. I doubt it was her plan all along. She does not sound like a sociopath. More likely she just made the decisions naturally as the need arose. Solipsism tends to run on automatic pilot in cheaters.

She has painted you into a corner.

If you divorce her:

She gets cash (child support) and prizes (alimony) for her time served in the marriage.
She will be free to date other men, on your dime.
Who knows what kind of men she would bring into your sons life. 
You become a part time parent.
Your standard of living will decrease.
But you will be free to find a better quality women who is both loving AND monogamous.

If you stay:

You have to live with her. A cheater.
Someone who robbed you of your agency.
Who deceived you for her own personal gain. 
You will have to deal with the mind movies of her and her lover.
You will have to monitor her like a dad keeping tabs on a rebellious teenager.
You will always have that little voice in your head wondering what she is doing when you are not around.
But you will skip all the downsides of a divorce. Especially if you insist on a postnuptial agreement should she cheat again.
And you get to be with your son everyday.

Neither option should be entered into hastily. Take your time. If you can, get some distance from her. Physically and emotionally. Even if it’s just for a few days. It may help you clear your head a bit.

Also it may be a good idea to insist on a DNA test. Not just to confirm parentage. It demonstrates to your wife that you have zero trust in her. And that you view of her is shattered. She is officially off the pedestal. And she faces a long hard road back. If she is not up for it then.....


----------



## ABHale

Must have been something that went on in counseling, OP has only posted once and very brief at that.


----------



## lovelygirl

ABHale said:


> Must have been something that went on in counseling, OP has only posted once and very brief at that.


Yeah. I kind of thought the same. Maybe MC told him to maintain the secrecy of the developments within the session and so on.

??

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


----------



## Jksc11

Counselor did not tell us to keep anything secret but I don’t feel the need to post it here. It’s 5 pages of the timeline along with some of the whys and hows. I will say that she admitted the sex was more than 3 times and she went to his house once (he was still living with his wife but was in process of divorce). I had a number of other follow up questions and she has written 5 more pages in response to that. 

I am not in an enviable position. As someone above said....divorce is messy for our child, and I stand to lose a life I have built. I’m willing to work to reconcile and work towards a marriage that is open and honest, but not willing to stay in one where I’m unhappy or have serious reasons to believe this could happen again. The next following months should tell me what I need to know to make a decision that I can live with for the rest of my life.


----------



## oldtruck

Jksc11 said:


> Counselor did not tell us to keep anything secret but I don’t feel the need to post it here. It’s 5 pages of the timeline along with some of the whys and hows. I will say that she admitted the sex was more than 3 times and she went to his house once (he was still living with his wife but was in process of divorce). I had a number of other follow up questions and she has written 5 more pages in response to that.
> 
> I am not in an enviable position. As someone above said....divorce is messy for our child, and I stand to lose a life I have built. I’m willing to work to reconcile and work towards a marriage that is open and honest, but not willing to stay in one where I’m unhappy or have serious reasons to believe this could happen again. The next following months should tell me what I need to know to make a decision that I can live with for the rest of my life.


Curious when did their dating start, how many dates did they have, when did the affair end,
and is NC in place?


----------



## Casual Observer

Jksc11 said:


> Counselor did not tell us to keep anything secret but I don’t feel the need to post it here. It’s 5 pages of the timeline along with some of the whys and hows. I will say that she admitted the sex was more than 3 times and she went to his house once (he was still living with his wife but was in process of divorce). I had a number of other follow up questions and she has written 5 more pages in response to that.
> 
> I am not in an enviable position. As someone above said....divorce is messy for our child, and I stand to lose a life I have built. I’m willing to work to reconcile and work towards a marriage that is open and honest, but not willing to stay in one where I’m unhappy or have serious reasons to believe this could happen again. The next following months should tell me what I need to know to make a decision that I can live with for the rest of my life.


Sorry to hear that. Do you have a sense of whether the MC favors reconciliation or divorce? Has the MC brought up the difficult issues, which you identified, that go along with reconciliation? Does your wife have a sense of what it might be like, having to live a 100% continuously-examined life, while in her mind she's wondering why, because she's been fine since? Is she susceptible to believing that she shouldn't have have told the truth and she'd have been better off?


----------



## Jksc11

Old truck. Affair began in mid April of 2011. Ended in late September of 2011. What I was told was that it became physical after they had hung out for about 5 times. That after it became physical it remained that way. I was told that it ran a little hot and cold and that at one point he became interested in someone else at the gym. She said there were times when it would go 2-3 weeks without them meeting up. My wife says she tried to break it off in mid September, about two weeks before I found out something was up and ended, but ended up not breaking it off. She said that after I was into them she called him and broke off all contact and hadn’t seen/talked to him since. I do know that she switched gyms that day and I was monitoring her phone and email for a while after that. She says no “dates”, getaways, etc. Just our house regularly, and his house once.


----------



## Jksc11

The MC is pro reconciliation assuming the people can work things out and realistically be happy. She says some people can and others can’t.....mostly dependent on how committed they are to doing the work. We have mostly been talking about fact finding and the how’s and why’s so far. What her feelings during this time, her motivations, how she gave herself permission to do this. I assume we will start digging into the deeper behavior soon. My wife is an avoider. I realize it more now than at any time in our relationship. Getting her to let her guard down is tough and I’ve told her I think she should attend some individual therapy as well as our couples sessions. I told her that trust, if at all even possible will not come easy and she will need to expect more scrutiny and make sure everything is very transparent. That her one plus one needs to always equal two. She has already turned over phone access, email, the “show me location” feature on her phone. I dunno. It’s going to be tough man. I am committed to giving it an honest shot. My feelings vary day to day and probably the hardest thing is the mental image. It was my house so it becomes very real. I know this is not healthy or productive but it’s normal for someone in my shoes. 

We go to counseling tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## Music_Man

Hang in there. Take your time and don't force the healing.


----------



## Lostinthought61

what i really what to hear is what is she going to do to keep you in this marriage? what kind of heavy lifting is she willing to do to keep you in this marriage? i don't honestly believe she is completely remorseful...a remorseful person would have confessed right after it happen...she did not...she let it go for 6 months and then kept it quiet for years....again it is your life but i hear guilt but not remorse. Is she willing to sign a paper that if you divorce you keep your entire 401K and she will not take half? in other words one does not reward bad behavior...she needs to have some consequences.


----------



## Jksc11

To the above. I am not rushing anything and realize I may get to a point months from now where I realize things are too broken to fix. What I will be looking for from her is 100% transparency, a continued commitment to fixing her behavior, adhering to agreed upon boundaries and better communication. But I understand what you are saying about not rushing the process or intentionally putting this behind us too fast. 

About being truly remorseful....unfortunately there isn’t a fool proof way to know this. I talked to her about it and she displays many of the signs they say to look for, but again, regret and remorse are different sides of the same coin. She has told me many, many times that if she could go back in time and never have done this she would. She asks me how I’m doing. She is pretty emotionally beat up herself. Not sleeping much and not eating regularly. I think she has some glimpse of how I’m feeling but don’t think someone can truly understand what a gut punch this is until they have actually experienced it. Most of our family knows and she talks openly with them about it in a remorseful tone. 

I am looking into the feasibility of a post-nup and whether they hold water in my state (Ca).


----------



## Kamstel

Do you still live in the same house as when she would bring him home with her?


----------



## Jksc11

No. Different house that we bought about a year and a half ago. Have lived in other places since then. Live in another town as well about 20 min from where it took place.


----------



## [email protected]

As for MC, I've said it before other places: If you want to see a convention of screwballs, go to one where there are a lot of MSWs. I've seen female MCs who are into Critical Theory, which views people either as oppressed or oppressors. One female MC stated openly that ALL white males, by their nature (whatever that is) are oppressors! I knew of one psychiatrist specializing in MC, who had married and divorced four times. His last wife said that he had a problem with women.


----------



## oldtruck

Jksc11 said:


> No. Different house that we bought about a year and a half ago. Have lived in other places since then. Live in another town as well about 20 min from where it took place.


Good, otherwise it would of been recommended that you move from that house
because there would be to many triggers, impeding the healing.

I drag out the sofa, the bedroom set, and any other furniture that WW had
sex on with the OM, and have barn fire in your backyard.


----------



## lovelygirl

Jksc11 said:


> Most of our family knows and she talks openly with them about it in a remorseful tone.


I'd feel sooooo embarrassed if my family knew about this stuff.

I would turn the world upside-down and beg to the BS to not tell the family.... and I'd promise to give the full details in return.


----------



## manwithnoname

lovelygirl said:


> I'd feel sooooo embarrassed if my family knew about this stuff.
> 
> I would turn the world upside-down and beg to the BS to not tell the family.... and I'd promise to give the full details in return.


Exposing should be non negotiable by the betrayer. And if it was kept quiet, and the full details were actually partial, this amounts to rugsweeping.

Probably the best way to prevent this is to be faithful in the first place.


----------



## TJW

Jksc11 said:


> I think she has some glimpse of how I’m feeling but don’t think someone can truly understand what a gut punch this is until they have actually experienced it.


I think this is absolutely correct. Until it's done to them, the WSs don't "get it"..... how it changes EVERYTHING, everything in the marriage becomes nothing but a lie and a sham.

I'm really sorry you had this experience in your marriage. Keep making the right decisions FOR YOU. There is no shortage of advice in this world, the hard part is to decide which advice best suits your circumstances and which advice serves your best interest and the best interest of your children.


----------



## arbitrator

* @Jksc11 ~ Infidelity, all too often, makes cowards out the perpetrator, to where the truth or some semblance of it, unfortunately comes out, often with dire circumstances!

You've come to the right place for advice!

But for the moment, do nothing rash, but do collect your thoughts and emotions, so you can make a better rationalization of the situation before ultimately deciding which course of action best suits you! *


----------



## TJW

jsmart said:


> Read the threads to see the trend. WWs are usually very wanton with their OM. Don't think he was getting the vanilla sex she gives you....


It may be better if you don't inquire about these kinds of details. They serve only to hurt. If she tells you the truth, you fully understand how you are a paycheck-on-legs and a sperm donor, not someone she WANTS to be with. The truth cannot be escaped, she would prefer to be with OM, but for some reasons, OM cannot act as "provider" (or, doesn't want to be provider).


----------



## wilson

If you decide to stay together, think of her like an alcoholic trying to stay sober. Some alcoholics put all the responsibility on those around them ("you need to make sure I'm not tempted"), while others take on the responsibility themselves ("I won't go to places that serve alcohol"). You should see that she is taking the initiative and being proactive about this situation. If you are the one who always has to bring up the idea of counseling, books, ways she can avoid temptation, etc., that's a troubling sign about how successful reconciliation will be. You should feel like she is willingly and energetically doing a lot of the work herself to fix this.


----------



## Tilted 1

wilson said:


> If you decide to stay together, think of her like an alcoholic trying to stay sober. Some alcoholics put all the responsibility on those around them ("you need to make sure I'm not tempted"), while others take on the responsibility themselves ("I won't go to places that serve alcohol"). You should see that she is taking the initiative and being proactive about this situation. If you are the one who always has to bring up the idea of counseling, books, ways she can avoid temptation, etc., that's a troubling sign about how successful reconciliation will be. You should feel like she is willingly and energetically doing a lot of the work herself to fix this.


What great advice Wilson, nicely done!


----------



## ABHale

Is CA a common law state?

I think after 10 years of marriage the husband is on the hook for alimony for life. Until then it is for half the years you have been married.


----------



## Marc878

ABHale said:


> Is CA a common law state?
> 
> I think after 10 years of marriage the husband is on the hook for alimony for life. Until then it is for half the years you have been married.


Great point. A buddy of mine just went thru this. He was married for 10 but negotiated 5 years of alimony. 

The problem you have is the capability is there to cheat. They may never again but if there's no work to control/manage those tendencies guess what?

I hear the word they can change and cringe. So may false R's and repeats happen with too much regularity.

The analogy about alcoholics is correct from what I've seen. An alcoholic may never drink again but they're still an alcoholic.


----------



## Jksc11

An update on our situation. We are attending weekly marriage counseling. Both reading a lot of material on this topic. One area I am really struggling with are the mental images of her with another man. I have gotten better at refocusing my mind on other topics but I can tell this will be a big hurdle for me. I will have a day or two where things look/fell better to me and then, mostly when I’m unoccupied or bored the mind movies start and drag me back to a very unhappy place.


----------



## Marduk

Jksc11 said:


> An update on our situation. We are attending weekly marriage counseling. Both reading a lot of material on this topic. One area I am really struggling with are the mental images of her with another man. I have gotten better at refocusing my mind on other topics but I can tell this will be a big hurdle for me. I will have a day or two where things look/fell better to me and then, mostly when Iâ€m unoccupied or bored the mind movies start and drag me back to a very unhappy place.



Unfortunately for some, these can last a lifetime. Just be ready to wake up 20 years from now at 3AM with some of those running around in your mind as you reconcile. They can go away for years and still come back. 

I would recommend factoring this into the equation. 

Additionally, have you expanded the scope of your conversations to include any other indiscretions? How sure are you of what you’re dealing with here?


----------



## colingrant

Jksc11 said:


> An update on our situation. We are attending weekly marriage counseling. Both reading a lot of material on this topic. One area I am really struggling with are the mental images of her with another man. I have gotten better at refocusing my mind on other topics but I can tell this will be a big hurdle for me. I will have a day or two where things look/fell better to me and then, mostly when Iâ€™m unoccupied or bored the mind movies start and drag me back to a very unhappy place.


You'll have to decide how long you can endure such images. Not all people can undo or suppress them. Many have found themselves at 3, 4,5 years out, wishing they had left years prior because of unsettled nature of there day-to-day lives, even if they don't experience the images daily, periodically is enough to create eternal bitterness and resentment. 

This is where recovery has limitations and a wall is often hit. I've read many, many stories on here and elsewhere. The number of BS wishing they'd left versus being happy at having stayed is 10:1, and I'm being conservative. BS mean well, but have a tough time undoing what was read, told, or conceptualized, ...... however you want to call the images. When I think of my xfiance 20 years ago, I STILL THINK IF THE ****ING SHE GOT IN FRONT OF HER AP'S FIREPLACE. This image remains 25 years later. 

She did me a favor, as I wouldn't have found my wife of 25 infidelity free years. Nonetheless, I'm almost positive the image would be in my mind more intensely and frequently had I stayed with her. Only leaving her enabled me to think of her or the affair.


----------



## Openminded

Mind movies are a significant part of R for many. They can last months, years, decades. Some move beyond them easier than others. I have no suggestions for what might work, unfortunately, because I never managed to get beyond them until after the divorce (and that was a very long time after the betrayal).


----------



## Tilted 1

Jksc11 said:


> An update on our situation. We are attending weekly marriage counseling. Both reading a lot of material on this topic. One area I am really struggling with are the mental images of her with another man. I have gotten better at refocusing my mind on other topics but I can tell this will be a big hurdle for me. I will have a day or two where things look/fell better to me and then, mostly when Iâ€™️m unoccupied or bored the mind movies start and drag me back to a very unhappy place.


This is the killer for reconciliation. Sorry man


----------



## Jksc11

We attended counseling this morning. Overall it was positive and a step in the right direction. We are both communicating openly. I brought up the mind movies to the therapist and she said it was perfectly normal. Her advice was not to fight them....that the more you try to fight them off the more they will occur. Her advice was to acknowledge them when they happen, share it with my wife if I think it’s necessary and to allow them to be part of the acceptance process that this horrible thing happened. Being busy helps a lot. I have been working out 1-2 times a day and it a great distraction and allows me to fall sleep better. Night time when I’m alone with my thoughts are when they are the worse. 

I have a job where I am confronted with some pretty horrible stuff visually, so have some experience in dealing with unpleasant mental images. None have been this personal to me, but I have had luck in shaking more than a few things like this from my head. Time will tell.


----------



## [email protected]

Jksc11, unless I missed something, it looks like you are doing all the work. To be clear, the work is up to your WW. Unless she does it, there will never be R. Anyway, from my perspective, the mind moves would be a deal breaker.


----------



## MattMatt

A member here actually saw a video of his wife having sex with her lover. He saw the video by accident and, until then, was utterly clueless that his wife was cheating on him.

His therapist used NLP techniques to lessen the impact of the mind movies that seeing the video had caused.

The same technique I used to cure a deep phobia as it happens.

Basically you watch the event that triggers you and in your mind you overlay it with funny music.

It's a simple technique but it worked for him and it worked for me.


----------



## Jksc11

Icelander, my wife is doing the work. Not sure if you have been through this but I want to do what is necessary to heal myself...to get my head right and be happier regardless of whether our relationship works out. I see and hear that a lot...that the WW must do all the work. I agree it’s on them to fix themselves and to do everything possible to rebuild trust. Regardless of that though it’s good for the BS to do some work to heal and regain happiness. Just the way I see it.


----------



## TDSC60

Yes, you will require a lot of working on yourself to R. She will require a lot more, but you still have to do your work to keep the event from affecting you.

Are you sure you have the entire truth now?

Is she open to telling you the truth if you have more questions? Like did they move from the sofa to the bed you shared? Did she do sexual things for him she never did with you? Did she have sex with you on the same day as the OM? Did they always use protection? 

Since this happened before marriage, can you get over the feeling of theft of the decisions that were made before you found out the truth? Would you have shown her the door if you knew the truth of what she did before you married? Would you have agreed to having a child together? Those were major life decisions that you made in total ignorance of what went on and what she was capable of. All those decisions were basically stolen from you by her actions before, during, and after the affair.

Bottom line is to decide if this is a deal breaker for you. You can forgive, but you can never forget. Can you see a point where you can let her be a member of a gym and still trust her to honor you, your vows, and the marriage over her infatuation with a cute guy who catches her eye or who flirts with her? Will she again chase that new and exciting feeling?

The mind movies will continue to plague you for a very long time. But they will become less frequent and they will not affect you as much over time if she continues to be remorseful. 

Those are things you will need to work on yourself for a successful R. You need to forgive her and work on trusting. It will not happen overnight.


----------



## ABHale

Jksc11 said:


> We attended counseling this morning. Overall it was positive and a step in the right direction. We are both communicating openly. I brought up the mind movies to the therapist and she said it was perfectly normal. Her advice was not to fight them....that the more you try to fight them off the more they will occur. Her advice was to acknowledge them when they happen, share it with my wife if I think itâ€™s necessary and to allow them to be part of the acceptance process that this horrible thing happened. Being busy helps a lot. I have been working out 1-2 times a day and it a great distraction and allows me to fall sleep better. Night time when Iâ€™m alone with my thoughts are when they are the worse.
> 
> I have a job where I am confronted with some pretty horrible stuff visually, so have some experience in dealing with unpleasant mental images. None have been this personal to me, but I have had luck in shaking more than a few things like this from my head. Time will tell.


You might want to find another therapist for you. Stop mc until your mind is right. Then pick up mc again. 

There is no acceptance for what she did. You forgive and move forward with rebuilding if able or you forgive and move on with out her. 

Did she tell the truth with the time line she did at your first mc?


----------



## jlg07

MattMatt said:


> A member here actually saw a video *of his wife *having sex with her lover. He saw the video by accident and, until then, was utterly clueless that his wife was cheating on him.
> 
> His therapist used NLP techniques to lessen the impact of the mind movies that seeing the video had caused.
> 
> The same technique I used to cure a deep phobia as it happens.
> 
> Basically you watch the event that triggers you and in your mind you overlay it with funny music.
> 
> It's a simple technique but it worked for him and it worked for me.


I hope you meant his EX wife.....:smile2:


----------



## MattMatt

​


jlg07 said:


> I hope you meant his EX wife.....:smile2:


No. At that point she was his wife.

He did divorce her, though her attempts to get him to forgive her were truly pitiful.


----------



## kalimata

Why would the gym guy only come to your place to bang your wife? Didn’t he have a place of his own?

They always trade down during an affair. Your wife sounds no different than others. Unless you live the rest of your lives together with the keys to her chastity belt, she will always have the ability to attract another man. 

She is not yours and never will be. If you don’t continue to shower her with attention, like most women, she will simply get it from someone else. 

Skip forward 10 years. What is your plan when she has the itch again?


----------



## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> ​
> No. At that point she was his wife.
> 
> He did divorce her, though her attempts to get him to forgive her were truly pitiful.


The great Morituri… sage of TAM.


----------



## bandit.45

[email protected] said:


> As for MC, I've said it before other places: If you want to see a convention of screwballs, go to one where there are a lot of MSWs. I've seen female MCs who are into Critical Theory, which views people either as oppressed or oppressors. One female MC stated openly that ALL white males, by their nature (whatever that is) are oppressors! I knew of one psychiatrist specializing in MC, who had married and divorced four times. His last wife said that he had a problem with women.


You gotta get out of CA man.


----------



## bandit.45

Jksc11 said:


> To the above. I am not rushing anything and realize I may get to a point months from now where I realize things are too broken to fix. What I will be looking for from her is 100% transparency, a continued commitment to fixing her behavior, adhering to agreed upon boundaries and better communication. But I understand what you are saying about not rushing the process or intentionally putting this behind us too fast.
> 
> About being truly remorseful....unfortunately there isn’t a fool proof way to know this. I talked to her about it and she displays many of the signs they say to look for, but again, regret and remorse are different sides of the same coin. She has told me many, many times that if she could go back in time and never have done this she would. She asks me how I’m doing. She is pretty emotionally beat up herself. Not sleeping much and not eating regularly. I think she has some glimpse of how I’m feeling but don’t think someone can truly understand what a gut punch this is until they have actually experienced it. Most of our family knows and she talks openly with them about it in a remorseful tone.
> 
> I am looking into the feasibility of a post-nup and whether they hold water in my state (Ca).


In California probably not. Everything is compulsory. Especially alimony.


----------



## Tilted 1

Jksc11 said:


> . Her advice was not to fight them....that the more you try to fight them off the more they will occur. Her advice was to acknowledge them when they happen, share it with my wife if I think itâ€™s necessary and to allow them to be part of the acceptance process that this horrible thing happened. Night time when Iâ€™m alone with my thoughts are when they are the worse.
> . Time will tell.


Thats the problem with some therapist, they think acceptance is required. Not at all, but coping skills when they are happening. To help you endure them in such a way that you can start to live in a somewhat normal state of mind.


----------



## Jksc11

Lots of questions in the last couple of pages. Not sure I can answer them all. I do believe everything has been disclosed. I am attending weekly individual counseling as well as weekly couples counseling. I have pressed her very hard on the issue of the last 8 years and whether there have been any other similar instances I should know about. She maintains there have not been any and that after this happened 8 years ago it was a huge wake up call to her. She maintains that she lied to me because she knew it would be the end of us, and that she has carried the guilt and shame all this time. She is reading books and attending IC as well and is open to talking whenever I want to. I have access to everything electronic and she shared her location with me on her phone so I know where she is at all times. One thing that I have a problem with is that no amount of talking helps that much. I just keep going back to the question of “how could she do this to me?” I have had many opportunities to cheat if I wanted to, yet always found it within myself not to. That she could let this happen not just once but multiple times just tears me up inside. 

I’m still a mess. The anger and resentment I carry around on a daily basis is constant and overwhelming. The mind movies are the worst part. The counseling I’m going to is so I can regain some sense of normal and peace within myself. I told my wife last night that I committed to reconciliation but that I won’t be able to continue if I harbor these feelings for years. I’m looking at this as a 6 month to 1 year plan where I’ll re-evaluate then and see if we are better, the same or worse than now. I know things won’t be perfect in that timeframe but if I can see significant improvement then that will give me hope that we can reconcile.


----------



## Gabriel

What did she ultimately cop to? Once a week for 6 months is 26 visits. If that is even indeed the right numbers. A total stranger - he could have murdered her.

She admitted it was more than 3 times. Did she even have a number? Betting it was exactly equal to the number of visits. Give or take.

1 year old kids don't really look like anybody yet - they change. I'd DNA the child for sure. Even if you are 99% sure it's yours, the act of doing that shows how grave the situation is to your wife. She should feel how painful that is for you. 

Her behavior was extremely reckless and unsafe on so many levels. He could have hurt her, got her pregnant, all the neighbors see his car all the time, see him coming and going. Even if it weren't for the horrible attack on your marriage, how can you trust she can make sound decisions, to be a safe parent for your child? It's a major character flaw revealed.


----------



## Marduk

I went on a many month journey after my first wife cheated and left. She just left - she didn’t even admit to the cheating, she just announced one day out of the blue that we were over. And then I found out about the cheating from some friends and her family. 

The question of why consumed me. I talked to therapists. I talked to support groups. I talked to cheaters. I talked to those that were cheated on.

What I came to was that the answer as to why was so simple that I had missed it. The answer to why is that she wanted to. She wanted to have sex with someone else while she was married to me, so she did. It’s that simple. 

It’s also an incomplete question - what I was really asking was how she could do this and live with herself. I couldn’t do that. She could. What was the difference?

And what I came to was that she lacked integrity. And that has been a very common root cause I believe in the many, many people I’ve talked to on every side of this in the past 20 years. No integrity. Meaning wholeness, consistency, honour. That’s how someone can do this and live with themselves. 

I would suggest that your wife used to lack integrity. Maybe she’s regaining it now that she’s starting to give a little honesty. I doubt you’re getting the whole story still, and I doubt you ever will. 

But ultimately that’s what you’re going to have to figure out: does your wife have integrity now? She didn’t before. She didn’t even a few months ago when she was still lying. It’s really hard to tell if someone is just better at faking it or if they’re really doing the hard stuff. 

Policing her is ok because it gives you something tangible to hang onto. But it’s not going to work long-term. You can’t police her into acting with integrity. She has to want it. And she may be acting out of fear right now, and that fear will wear off as soon as she thinks you should be over it, or she feels safe again. 

Think about this long and hard, man. You’re gambling the rest of your life with her. And all you get as a prize if you win is to stay with someone that has cheated on you in very disrespectful ways. For a long time, in your own bed. And then married you without telling you. 

You’re in pain right now and you want your life back. You want some control back. Some safety back. 

I’m here to tell you that any safety you have with anyone is an illusion - doubly so with someone that could do this to you. 

Only you can decide if you can live with that.


----------



## Jksc11

I understand what you guys are saying. Marduk that’s a very good way of putting it and helps me with the “why”. Lack of integrity is definitely the root cause. I do believe she has grown since then. Has she grown enough? Most likely not. But I can honestly say she is a better person than she was back then. As am I. 

As for the number of times she admitted to it happening. She says the first month or so was just an emotional thing. Talking, flirting, etc. this was in April of 2011. She says by around mid May it turned physical but no sex. She says by end of May or early June it turned to sex. She says there were weeks where he did not come over. I know this is true for at least one of the weeks because we were on vacation but she says it ran hot or cold and he started seeing someone else at some point and giving her less attention. She admits to trying to break it off in early September but that she went back to him. I found out something was up on Sept 20th of 2011 and she says she broke it off for good then. I do know she immediately stopped going to that gym and I looked at her phone for some time with no contact between them. She admits to going to his house once where they had sex. She admits to suggesting they go away over night but that he declined. He was married at the time and going through a divorce so they could not meet up a lot except for most Tuesday mornings due to some scheduling or something. She says all in they had sex about 10 times. Make outs and fore-play about 5 times before that. She maintains no sex in our bed and that protection was used every time. I have pressed hard on this issue and get the same answer every time. I have asked many times and in different ways if there has been ANY contact with him since then and get a firm no. This is where it gets difficult. It would be nice if that that was the truth, and it may very well be the truth but with zero trust between us her words mean almost nothing to me. 

I realize it’s a gamble and one that I don take lightly. I had counseling today and it helped me, but also made it clear what is needed from her for there to be any chance of s healthy marriage.....one where I don’t have to police her. That’s the last thing I want. I was too trusting before and regardless of what happens between us I wouldn’t trust a new partner the way I used to blindly trust her. Tough situation to be in for sure.


----------



## Jksc11

I should have added that while we are working towards reconciliation I have a plan B. Attorney has been located, child support/alimony calculated, living arrangements. I really want this to work but I did this so I have all of the facts and can make decision knowing what divorce means....at least financially.


----------



## oldtruck

Jksc11 said:


> Lots of questions in the last couple of pages. Not sure I can answer them all. I do believe everything has been disclosed. I am attending weekly individual counseling as well as weekly couples counseling. I have pressed her very hard on the issue of the last 8 years and whether there have been any other similar instances I should know about. She maintains there have not been any and that after this happened 8 years ago it was a huge wake up call to her. She maintains that she lied to me because she knew it would be the end of us, and that she has carried the guilt and shame all this time. She is reading books and attending IC as well and is open to talking whenever I want to. I have access to everything electronic and she shared her location with me on her phone so I know where she is at all times. One thing that I have a problem with is that no amount of talking helps that much. I just keep going back to the question of “how could she do this to me?” I have had many opportunities to cheat if I wanted to, yet always found it within myself not to. That she could let this happen not just once but multiple times just tears me up inside.
> 
> I’m still a mess. The anger and resentment I carry around on a daily basis is constant and overwhelming. The mind movies are the worst part. The counseling I’m going to is so I can regain some sense of normal and peace within myself. I told my wife last night that I committed to reconciliation but that I won’t be able to continue if I harbor these feelings for years. I’m looking at this as a 6 month to 1 year plan where I’ll re-evaluate then and see if we are better, the same or worse than now. I know things won’t be perfect in that timeframe but if I can see significant improvement then that will give me hope that we can reconcile.



recovery is 2 to 5 years, no short cuts


----------



## Marc878

Bud, if she doesn't work on herself and fix the problem there's a high chance you'll get a repeat.

Some fix the issues and never cheat again but a lot fall right back into the same behavior.

At least know what you're dealing with here.


----------



## lovelygirl

Jksc11 said:


> I just keep going back to the question of â€œhow could she do this to me?â€� I have had many opportunities to cheat if I wanted to, yet always found it within myself not to. That she could let this happen not just once but multiple times just tears me up inside.


Exactly! That's what hurts the most. 

Does it mean you were stupid for letting go of your cheating possibilities, trying to remain faithful? 
Does she think she's smarter??? 
Of course NOT!!!! 

You remained faithful because you wanted to (despite of options to cheat) and because you have *INTEGRITY!!!!*

As for your wife, you can find her in my signature, btw :wink2:




> Iâ€™m still a mess. The anger and resentment I carry around on a daily basis is constant and overwhelming. The mind movies are the worst part. The counseling Iâ€™m going to is so I can regain some sense of normal and peace within myself. I told my wife last night that I committed to reconciliation but that I wonâ€™t be able to continue if I harbor these feelings for years. Iâ€™m looking at this as a 6 month to 1 year plan where Iâ€™ll re-evaluate then and see if we are better, the same or worse than now. I know things wonâ€™t be perfect in that timeframe but if I can see significant improvement then that will give me hope that we can reconcile.


Totally understandable. Stand up to your time frame and DON'T allower to change your rules!


----------



## OutofRetirement

Your denial skills are excellent. 

She is a long-term liar and cheater, but I guess she is your cheater and liar. I get that But why believe her? She screwed up in confessing, given your past history.

She was chasing him. She would have done anything to keep him. It was only sex for him, and he dumped her when he had to deal with too much of her baggage, pushing for more, making him worried she might mess up his life. It was good when she was her Tuesday girl. He didn't need more than that. But in her end, she wanted a lot more. Haven't you ever seen these kinds of relationships? It's cliche.

Why don't you just polygraph her? Why not dna the kids? You can just keep it to yourself. You can still stay with her no matter what, there is a good chance the kids are yours. Don't you want to know about your own life?


----------



## Marduk

Gently. 

She lacks integrity at least until she stops lying and starts freely admitting the whole truth. 

That’s either a very recent thing, or hasn’t changed at all. 

Up until that point, she’s just going through the motions of having integrity and not actually doing the work to regain it.


----------



## Gabriel

Jksc11 said:


> I should have added that while we are working towards reconciliation I have a plan B. Attorney has been located, child support/alimony calculated, living arrangements. I really want this to work but I did this so I have all of the facts and can make decision knowing what divorce means....at least financially.


Good.

Thing is, you are still in the early stages here. It's natural to want to maintain control, especially for men. I urge you to think big picture (which I know is hard right now). Can you ever trust your wife? Can you go about FOREVER knowing about this and live happily ever after? Forget right now...this is forever man. You'll always know this happened. It happened many times over a decent stretch of time. This was not a one-night stand. 

1) 5 years from now at a party with couples, talking to a solid married couple, will you wish your relationship was untainted like theirs? 
2) When someone says in a conversation that if their spouse ever banged another man/woman they'd leave in a heartbeat, will you look down at your shoes? 
3) When you watch a movie where a woman is screwing another man while married, will you have to leave the room and take deep breaths? 
4) When someone compliments your wife and tells you how sweet she is, will you look to the side and think, "if only you knew?".

Think about your future. This was a major offense. A helmet-to-helmet blow that most would get automatic ejections from. You can decide what you want, it's your life, but I urge you to think about the situations I mention above and see if that future is one you will enjoy.

I am 7 years out from my wife's emotional affair with a close friend of hers. No sex, no touching, not a stranger. That was hard enough, it took 3 years for me to get to a healthy place. And we had 3 much older kids than yours, so the ties were even more complicated. Even THEN, I've had some of those moments that almost killed it for me.

Just think about it.


----------



## Marduk

Jksc11 said:


> I should have added that while we are working towards reconciliation I have a plan B. Attorney has been located, child support/alimony calculated, living arrangements. I really want this to work but I did this so I have all of the facts and can make decision knowing what divorce means....at least financially.


I suggest you make your plan B your plan A. 

You can always choose to reconcile as you go through this process. But I think at this point you should be making it your default choice, not your backup plan. 

Trust me on this - when my wife had an EA we really only got to the bedrock when I was literally thinking of signing a lease on a condo in the neighbourhood and planning with my wife how to tell the kids about me moving out. 

It’s not real until it’s real.


----------



## Jksc11

What is to gain by moving forward with the divorce process while trying to reconcile? I understand it might send the message of how serious this is but I’ve already told her divorce is very much on the table? Did you get additional information once the threat of moving out was real?


----------



## BluesPower

Jksc11 said:


> What is to gain by moving forward with the divorce process while trying to reconcile? I understand it might send the message of how serious this is but I’ve already told her divorce is very much on the table? Did you get additional information once the threat of moving out was real?


I could be wrong, but I think that @Marduk is saying that your wife is not R material. You are staying for the wrong reasons, with the wrong attitude. 

Further, having divorce papers in her hand, and looking at a different future may change her attitude. 

You see, lots of us don't believe in R at all, but if we did it would be with a woman that recognized what a full she was right away, and at that point started to crawl through broken glass to be with me... all the time I am moving away. 

Lots of us don't see you doing that, and our feeling is you are making a mistake. It is your mistake to make, no doubt, but a mistake none the less...


----------



## Marduk

Jksc11 said:


> What is to gain by moving forward with the divorce process while trying to reconcile? I understand it might send the message of how serious this is but Iâ€™ve already told her divorce is very much on the table? Did you get additional information once the threat of moving out was real?


Here’s what you get:
1. It becomes real for both of you. It’s ****ty, but if it’s over, you might as well rip that band aid off and start the healing now. 

2. It removes much of the benefit for continued lying. If it’s over, lying to save the marriage (trickle truth) no longer makes sense. 

3. If reconciliation is the default, then even if she’s worried, she’s not that worried. She’s probably assuming right now that a few months or a year from now, everything will be back to normal. 

4. Integrity is what happens when nobody is looking. If she thinks you’re likely to leave anyway, you may see her true nature. 

5. I only got the whole truth when I was leaving. It was literally in our last conversation with the counsellor about how we were going to tell the kids and what life was going to be like that it all started spilling out. She didn’t want me to leave, and she knew her only shot possible was to have her feet held to the fire. And then she did it willingly.


----------



## Marduk

P.S. if she’s claiming she didn’t have sex with him in your bed and they used protection every time, she’s probably still lying. 

Beds are where the most sex happens and the vast majority of affair sex is done without protection. There’s a complex psychology behind that if you’re interested, but it’s true. 

Many affairs only come to light when the spouse gets an STD.

She’s likely lying about this, and probably more. She’s likely telling herself she’s protecting you, but it’s really about protecting herself.


----------



## Marduk

BluesPower said:


> I could be wrong, but I think that @Marduk is saying that your wife is not R material. You are staying for the wrong reasons, with the wrong attitude.
> 
> Further, having divorce papers in her hand, and looking at a different future may change her attitude.
> 
> You see, lots of us don't believe in R at all, but if we did it would be with a woman that recognized what a full she was right away, and at that point started to crawl through broken glass to be with me... all the time I am moving away.
> 
> Lots of us don't see you doing that, and our feeling is you are making a mistake. It is your mistake to make, no doubt, but a mistake none the less...


I think that they’re both not ready for reconciliation yet, and don’t really understand yet what they’re reconciling. 

The danger at rug sweeping this whole thing is extremely high, and having him wake up 10 years down the road realizing he made a mistake at a critical point. 

Just like last time.


----------



## wilson

All marriages are hard. Even when there is no cheating, all marriages have a point where one person wonders if they made a mistake or not. Many marriages fail even when there is no cheating. The fact that this marriage has a huge shadow over it means that it is going to be that much harder to have a happy, successful marriage that lasts a lifetime. You'll have it hanging over you when you guys go through things like a stressful financial downturn, sex becomes less frequent, inlaw drama, etc. You should expect all of this to come bubbling back every time you guys are not getting along.

I don't get the sense that you are getting the full truth. I'm very certain the "no sex in the bed" is a lie. It doesn't make any sense that she would say "We have to do it on the floor because although I don't have enough integrity to be faithful, I have enough integrity to not soil our bed." Maybe the first time fooling around on the couch lead to sex on the couch, but I don't believe that they didn't use the bed after that.


----------



## Gabriel

wilson said:


> I don't get the sense that you are getting the full truth. I'm very certain the "no sex in the bed" is a lie. It doesn't make any sense that she would say "We have to do it on the floor because although I don't have enough integrity to be faithful, I have enough integrity to not soil our bed." Maybe the first time fooling around on the couch lead to sex on the couch, but I don't believe that they didn't use the bed after that.


Agree 100% 

Even if the 10 times is truthful, and maybe it is....remember when she said 3 times, TWICE? She has zero chance with the OM, so you are her only option. She will do (and say) anything to keep you around. This is trickle truth at its finest.

You do a lot of justifying to try to work this out.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Unfortunately I also think this is right....I have read way too many times how the marital bed gets no respect, just like everything else....car, home, wedding ring, etc
The last thing on the cheaters mind is to break off from their wonderful affair feelings and take a pause for the thought of keeping something sacred..... Is very rare anything gets spared and its also just as unfortunate that things are usually worse than one thought it could be, and that really sucks....


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Marduk said:


> and the vast majority of affair sex is done without protection.


Not always so.... My W was terrified of pregnancy so she made her AP use rubber... And not because I believed her telling me, but confirmed because I saw it when I got their text messages....
Her sister had gotten pregnant before with the pull out method so she knew that was a risk.... But not because she was thinking about me or anything thou....


----------



## Marduk

CantBelieveThis said:


> Not always so.... My W was terrified of pregnancy so she made her AP use rubber... And not because I believed her telling me, but confirmed because I saw it when I got their text messages....
> Her sister had gotten pregnant before with the pull out method so she knew that was a risk.... But not because she was thinking about me or anything thou....


I’m not saying condoms never happen. 

I’m just saying they don’t happen that often, and even when they do, they don’t last for long. 

The idea is that they’re already taking a risk, so the added risk is marginal, and they better maximize their enjoyment of it while they can.

Add that to the implausible story about not using their bed, and it just becomes doubly implausible.


----------



## jsmart

Marduk said:


> P.S. if she’s claiming she didn’t have sex with him in your bed and they used protection every time, *she’s probably still lying.*
> 
> *Beds are where the most sex happens and the vast majority of affair sex is done without protection*. There’s a complex psychology behind that if you’re interested, but it’s true.
> 
> Many affairs only come to light when the spouse gets an STD.
> 
> She’s likely lying about this, and probably more. She’s likely telling herself she’s protecting you, but it’s really about protecting herself.


Totally agree that it very likely they had sex everyone in the house. Couch, kitchen table, in the shower, and definitely in the marital bed. There would be something the OM would push for. It's a marking of territory.

As for using protection, that's the biggest lie after it only happened 3 times. There's been research on cheating wives, that show they are usually willing to perform not only very wanton acts for their OM but they crave for the OM to ejaculate in them. There's a big difference from the conscious logical mind that may fear STD or pregnancy and the sub-conscious emotional mind that wants the sperm of what her hamster brain thinks is the man with the better genes.

You know what revelation bothered me? That his WW wanted to get with the OM in the evening but he was not willing. So it was the WW trying to take the affair to another level but to him she was just his free prostitute.


----------



## lovelygirl

Gabriel said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> Even if the 10 times is truthful, and maybe it is....remember when she said 3 times, TWICE? She has zero chance with the OM, so you are her only option. She will do (and say) anything to keep you around. This is trickle truth at its finest.
> 
> You do a lot of justifying to try to work this out.


Yeah, I was thinking the same. 

She initially said 3, now it's 10...., what's there next??

She proved she's *able to lie *and _hide_ and* live with this hidden truth* for your whole marriage until now ... so what's keeping her from hiding even more stuff???

After all, you can't really prove whether she had sex in your marital bed or not so why would she risk even more to tell you the truth at this point?

Right now, the only thing you can do OP is accept the fact that maybe, she's not revealing every single detail, nonetheless, you know 60% of the story. More details *would aggravate your mind movies,* making you feel more and more anxious...which would most likely lead you towards divorce. 

So, if you're not ready (or sure) to divorce yet - leave the details as they are now. 

If you press for details because you can't live with the fact that there might be more, then prepare yourself psychologically that the divorce would be inevitable. 

p.s. I've never been a fan of tickle truth or diminishing details, but the importance of details will depend on how much willing you are to know more and live with, pushing divorce for later.


----------



## Gabriel

jsmart said:


> Totally agree that it very likely they had sex everyone in the house. Couch, kitchen table, in the shower, and definitely in the marital bed. There would be something the OM would push for. It's a marking of territory.
> 
> As for using protection, that's the biggest lie after it only happened 3 times. There's been research on cheating wives, that show they are usually willing to perform not only very wanton acts for their OM but they crave for the OM to ejaculate in them. There's a big difference from the conscious logical mind that may fear STD or pregnancy and the sub-conscious emotional mind that wants the sperm of what her hamster brain thinks is the man with the better genes.
> 
> You know what revelation bothered me? That his WW wanted to get with the OM in the evening but he was not willing. So it was the WW trying to take the affair to another level but to him she was just his free prostitute.


Reading the timeline though....it appears this affair happened before they got married. They were living together though, and their bed may have become their marital bed, but at the time they were not married. That's if I'm reading this right.

It's still a brutal violation of trust though.


----------



## stillthinking

> She admits to suggesting they go away over night but that he declined.


 So basically she was really into him. She wanted a romantic overnight getaway with him, while living with you.




> She maintains no sex in our bed and that protection was used every time.


 Of course she says this. Most cheaters say this. What else would she say.... "Yea I banged him in our bed, raw, and we did this position and this position..." What upside is there for her admitting to that?

There is a poster on another board. His wife has an affair with the electric contractor during a remod. Every day they had sex after the crew knocked off, before he got home from work. Got busted. Swore that they never had sex in their bed. Everywhere else in the house, just not there.* 5 years later* she admitted to it. A year after that omission, when he finally demanded a poly, she admitted (after 6 years of claiming otherwise) to meeting up with her lover after being busted. At that point the poly was cancelled as he was finally done. She also said it was just sex. But was wearing sexy lingerie and lighting candles (just like she did with her husband) for her lover.

The point is, they lie. Especially if they have lots to lose. Your wife is staring down the barrel of a fractured family, single motherhood, and a ruined reputation. Not to mention less market value on the dating scene when compared to younger women without kids. It is not really in her best interest to lay it all out there. It is in her best interest to color things a certain way. To appear totally honest, but to hold back on things that are more likely to make you walk.

FYI I have not read the entire thread so I don't know if you are going to do a poly, or are going to go off of her word.


----------



## Decorum

Marduk said:


> I’m not saying condoms never happen.
> 
> I’m just saying they don’t happen that often, and even when they do, they don’t last for long.
> 
> The idea is that they’re already taking a risk, so the added risk is marginal, and they better maximize their enjoyment of it while they can.
> 
> Add that to the implausible story about not using their bed, and it just becomes doubly implausible.



100%, in the bed, and no condoms (at some point)!!!

1st stage of the 5 Stages of Grief and Loss. 

DENIAL!!!


----------

