# 28 years of marriage What ca i do?



## LVS

Reading about others encouraged me to post my story
I am married since 28 years at the age of 18.
I have 4 kids ages 26, 22, 17, and 12.
My marriage started suffering since i had my first child, lack of respect, lack of communication, always he is right and always blaming me for everything bad and criticizing me in a hurtful way; names calling cursing yelling screaming all kind of emotional and verbal abuse 
In addition, we have nothing in common not a single thing
I use to forgive and try to forget and holding on for many reasons, the most important one is that i am catholic and i was raised in a way to keep the marriage no matter what and catholic marriage should stay until death, and woman should be obedient to her husband.......
I was always telling myself that it is my choice and i have to take the full responsibility for that and it's my destiny and that's what God wrote for me.
If i was raised differently I believe my marriage should be ended after having my first son but i always had a hope that my marriage will survive.
With the passing years i started losing hope. My patience and capacity to let go and keep trying and hoping one day things will work can't help me anymore.
Now we are separated since 3 months under the same roof
I know we have nothing in common, I know he needs help that i cannot offer especially that he refused many times during all these years of suffering to do any counseling and he was always telling me to fix myself and everything will be fine.
I know I should move out but when I get to the point to take the final decision I got scared and regret the thought of divorce and blame myself to think this way. I always ask God what he wants me to do. What is the right for me and my kids for the family life that i always dreamed to have.
I don't know what's better for my 12 year old son is it better to stay in an unhealthy marriage and abusive relationship or seeking divorce 
I know both are hard but I don't know which is harder for my son
knowing that he loves his dad and his dad loves him and give him everything he needs yes he is emotionally and verbally abusing him but in the other side he is very loving and caring person. 
I can't think clearly what to do? Is there any hope that this marriage will work? I am sure I can't go back to the same life.


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## LVS

Do you think my story is not worthy for advice or reply ?????????
I am a stranger in a new country with no friends no one to lean on the only people close to me are my husband's family 
I am a middle eastern person confused between my culture and the way i was raised and the way i should live as a person to take care of myself !!!!!!!!!! should i kick my culture my family my believes and 28 years of marriage to take care of myself???!! If i did so will i regret that one day?????
Confused between what is better for my kids divorce or unhealthy marriage? what will shatter them more ????!!!
As Catholic person will i be doing the right thing?? ............


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## seekingcalm58

I certainly understand your position. You need to get away from a bad marriage. Do it now. Dont wait!

He will eventually show his true colors. He needs help in a big way. Your relationship cannot continue this way.


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## LVS

Thanks for your thoughts you are right i should leave a bad marriage
I was always feeling myself guilty and always feeling he is right and i should work on myself to change to the best to satisfy him but he never being satisfied 
Many times during the 28 years of marriage i had the thought of leaving him but i was scared to lose my kids because in my culture the father get the custody when the kids become over 7 years old
Now as i am in United states protected by the law here i can take a big move
All people who know what i went through tell me that i should leave this marriage 
The only thing that doesn't help is the financial side 
-The attorney said i can get divorce within 6 to 12 months and my husband doesn't have to agree 
-In my church they will support me and i can seek annulment because of the domestic violence
-The counselor said i did all what i had to do my husband needs help and he will never change because he is refusing to seek help 
I am totally convinced that i need to move out i have the power in my hands but i am afraid for many reasons first scared to live alone i think about my kids if it is the right decision for them and the way they will be seeing me and if they are going to keep their respect for me or support me I know when emotionally abusing someone he becomes dependent and see things from the abuser view point so i don't know the damage my kids are having and how they will see things
One more thing thinking about all the responsibilities i am going to take if i move out scares me i don't want to fail

That's ridicules now as I have all the power in my hands i am scared to take the decision 

Sometimes i feel happy to take this decision and very strong but some other time i think why i can't do anything to fix my marriage why i can't love him i want to love him i want to spent a happy family life with him and my kids why things turned this way why he is not doing anything to help himself i can't do anything more than i did i can't go back to the life he is making me live i am suffering deeply and he is blaming me for all his failures
I feel lost and my brother who is a monk said i should not think about divorce because divorce shatter the kids 
I am really unhappy to stay and scared to move please help me
to think right and in a clear way


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## turnera

Le vieux sage, you said this:


> yes he is emotionally and verbally abusing him


If your husband is abusing your son in ANY way, it is your duty as his mother to take him OUT of that situation. Children who are abused often grow up to be abusers themselves. And if not, they at least suffer extreme mental anguish and problems with relationships. 

Your son needs to see you taking a positive healthy step for his protection. He may not understand it at first, but counseling will help him.

Please protect your son.


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## turnera

Go to Join the Live United Movement and find the center closest to you, and call them or go to see them. They are an organization whose sole purpose is to help people in situations like yours. They can help you even if you cannot afford anything.


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## LVS

Thanks for your advice i am willing to contact them their number is 2-1-1 
I am trying and working on everything i can do you can see i am seeking all kind of help and support and looking to get resources for a good plan to move out 
I went to see the family services agency and they gave me appointment at 13th April they said I am not eligible for family support because my wage is more than it should be to get support i told them my wage is not enough to move with my kids they asked me to come to the meeting and this will help

I am doing everything i should do but i still have that fear as I mentioned in my last post and i have those moments where i feel desperate lonely scared and worthless sometimes i think that it is only my little son who is keeping me alive i feel sad when feeling this way because usually i am a happy person very sociable very outgoing everybody loves me and loves my smile but when i feel this way i feel sad i know this is not me i don't want to go into depression
I hesitate acting or taking decision fear of failure 
What's awaiting me at the other side? i don't know
I am trying to take the wise decision not the fast decision I have lived 28 years with my kids under the same situation i know it is getting worse but couple more months won't be to much compared to 28 years 
I appreciate any advice especially if someone has a similar situation and i am thankful for both of your reply ready to any additional opinion from you or anybody else
Thank you


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## turnera

Here's a secret abuse victims don't see while they are in the middle of it: what your husband has done is rob you of your belief in yourself.

Every little action he took convinced you that he was somehow more 'right' than you, had the right to do what he did, until you believed you deserved it. So you stayed.

But moving out will be like opening a door onto a light-filled meadow, where you can walk around and say what you want without fear of being ridiculed, do what you want without fear of upsetting him, be who you are without fear of being judged. It will be a whole new world that you should have had access to your whole life.

Once you're away from him, you'll be able to think back on what you wanted when you married him - a man who wanted to make you happy, couldn't wait to come home to see you, who did things to make sure you fulfilled your dreams. You'll be able to find that man some day - he is out there, the one you needed to marry, waiting for someone like you who he could treat fairly and lovingly. You'll find him, and you can start the second half of your life, like the first half should have been. And don't forget the Catholic church allows divorce in cases of abuse.

Do me a favor, though. When you go to United Way to get help in moving out, also let them find you a good psychologist. You need to be able to grieve the life you didn't get, and to build up your self-worth back to where it should be, which the abuse has taken away from you. Please don't look for any man until you have done this, or you will unconsciously seek out another abusive man. You have to be able to love yourself first, ok?

I'm proud of you, and your children will understand, and your youngest son will thank you one day. It may not happen at first, but they will get it, when you are back to your happy, healthy self.


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## LVS

I appreciate every single word you said you are absolutely right i am not concerned now about me i know i still need psychologist my concerns are about my kids especially the 17 and 12 years old

What is ridicules, that my husband is feeling like me is saying that he was suffering all the time and he is really depressed is like if he is the victim and i am Hitler. 
I feel glad that i took the decision to say enough is enough before i become totally depressed i can see here what they said about narcissist person: "In the long-term, such an environment erodes one's sense of self-worth and self-esteem. Self-confidence is shaken badly. Often, the victims go a paranoid or schizoid and thus are exposed even more to criticism and judgement. The roles are thus reversed: the victim is considered mentally disordered and the narcissist — the suffering soul."

Thanks for your concerns about me but i am feeling so much better and if i didn't start to love myself i wouldn't be here and i wouldn't be doing all what i am doing now i know life is short and i love life i want to live it to the fullest i am proud of what i've done till now i am proud that the abuse didn't get me to the point that i know about abused people
I am reading a lot i know what i went through i started reading everything about abusive relationships about positive and negative marriage i know how bad my marriage was how much unhealthy marriage i was living and my kids too i survived 28 years but i can't anymore 
My confusion is because always we can't see clearly when it's about our own problems 
I always doubt if i am thinking in a selfish or right way i know it is what i want and what i need but is there anything i can do ?
you offered for someone else a site to help fixing marriage do you think i am silly if i still think to find a way to fix my marriage is it because the abusive life i have lived or my believes and dreams of a good and happy and long lasting marriage what do you think turnera?


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## turnera

It is possible to have a good marriage with an abusive person IF you set hard, rock-solid rules for what you will and won't accept from him, and you don't allow him to bend those rules.


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## Uptown

Le Vieux, I just read your post about your abusive husband. If you are interested in learning what disorder he may have, I suggest you start with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and see if BPD traits sound like his behavior. 

Two hallmarks of BPD are abusive treatment (i.e., meanness) and fear of abandonment. If he has no fear of abandonment and has no difficulty being alone by himself, the disorder more likely would be NPD (Narcissistic PD). A good description of what it is like to live with a BPDer is at How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves - Roger Melton, M.A.. 

By the way, I've seen some of your other posts advising folks and have always found them insightful. Take care.


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## Uptown

> Thank you Uptown for your thoughts yes i think he has PD -- he has some of BPD he has so many traits of NPD i have read the malignant self Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), Self-love, Narcissism, Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Relationships with Abusers, Stalkers, and Bullies - Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Re-Visited
> 
> he is more NPD than BPD but he never commited suicide or self harming he never raped me never cheated me





> He may was when he was young more Narcissist but with the years and when life didn't match his expectations he became more depressing. I can see him more in Bipolar Disorder and specifically Mixed Episode which contains Mania and Depression http://psychcentral.com/lib/2009/bip...er-fact-sheet/ . I can see him also in Passive Aggressive personality so i never tried to diagnose his case because so many symptoms are related to many personality desorder
> and i fell he has more than one type of personality disorder what do you think?
> 
> Thanks for commenting on my posts in fact my life made me read a lot specially about marriage fixing relationships leaving or staying ..........and i like what i am doing and always thinking about others problems is clearer than thinking about my own one


Le Vieux, NPDs and BPDs both exhibit mean behavior so many people cannot tell the difference. Moreover, BPD is usually accompanied by another PD or disorder like bipolar, making it more confusing. There is a difference however. With NPDs, they tend to view people as objects and thus do not exhibit the sincere caring that you will see in BPDs. 

My exW, for example, was very caring for people until they became close enough for her to fear abandonment. Then she could be very mean. 

When BPDs split you black, they consider you to be like Hitler, a term you used in describing how your H perceives some people. Hence, BPDs do not treat you badly because they are not caring people. Rather, it is because they have split you black and sincerely believe you are a hurtful awful person. 

It sounds like your H is genuinely caring loving when splitting a person white. I say this because you write, " in the other side he is very loving and caring person." To me, this indicates that he is more BPD than NPD because the latter are not caring -- even though they sometimes pretend to be.

Either way, however, the result is pretty much the same. You will be treated like trash for much of the time and abused. Hence, because your H is unwilling to confront his illness and learn to control it, I support your decision to divorce him -- especially given that he is verbally abusive to your 12 year old son. 

Incidentally, the bipolar moods will be considered "rapid cycling" if they occur at least 4 times a year. With BPD mood changes, however, they can change 4 times in a week -- or even in one day. While it is possible to see that extreme rapid cycling in bipolar, it is very rare. Another difference is that, whereas bipolar is caused by gradual changes in body chemistry, BPD mood changes are "event triggered" (i.e., caused by some minor thing you do or say).


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## Uptown

> It's true all what you said -- I don't know why i didn't read the site that you sent it for me in your first message -- now after reading your letters i went back to it i read about the BPD -- OMG i wouldn't be able to explain what i am living better than that -- everything apply on my life with my H even i have so many to add -- Thank you


La vieux, I repeated your statement that your H is "loving and caring." I forgot to mention, however, what that implies. If he has strong BPD traits, it means that the love is real (with NPDs it typically is not). Yet, even though it is real love, it is not mature love. Instead, it is the type of love that you see in 3 and 4 year old children. A child that age loves you intensely when you are meeting his needs but then shifts abruptly to hating you whenever you withhold the tinest thing. Children flip back and forth between splitting you black and white because they do not yet deal well with the gray areas.

That type of love is genuine and sincere. Moreover, it is so intense (during the good times) that you think it must be deep. But it is not. Instead, it is extremely shallow. With BPDs, love for you is "a mile wide and an inch deep." It is shallow in the sense that, with the smallest innocent comment setting him off, the love will be replaced in 15 seconds with intense hatred.  

This is all that BPDs are capable of because their emotional development was frozen when they were 3 or 4 years old. Hence, if you H has strong BPD traits, you are essentially married to a guy with the emotionally development of a young child. 

But not just any young child. Rather, one with enormous anger inside that he has carried with him since childhood. I hope this is helpful, Le vieux. It helped me. For 15 years, I lived with a 4 year old too. 

Finally, I should note that healthy individuals rarely remain in a toxic relationship longer than 18 months. They will enjoy the wonderful 6 month honeymoon and then -- as the anger and jealousy start showing -- will spend up to an additional year trying to reconstruct the honeymoon. Then they give up and bail. 

However, folks like me (15 years in BPD relationship) and you (28 years) hold on far too long. Indeed, we are the glue that holds the toxic relationship together. Why have you been willing to do such a thing? It is important to understand your own motivation because, absent that insight, you are at great risk of leaving this man only to run right into the arms of another just like him. 

The _short answer_ is that your desire to be needed far exceeds your desire to be loved. That is, you likely have "codependent" aspects to your personality, being a caregiver type like I am. The problem is not that we want to help people. That goal is admirable. Rather, the problem is that we are willing to keep helping them when it is to our great detriment. 

You and I are drawn to wounded birds and we ignore the people running in the opposite direction. We also ignore the fact that BPD is the type of wound we cannot fix. Because BPDers feel suffocated and engulfed during true intimacy, attempting to heal a BPD sufferer with your love is a fool's errand. It is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging him. 

For the _long answer_, I suggest you read a detailed technical explanation (the best I've ever seen), at therapist Shari Shreiber's website: GettinBetter.com/needlove.html. She articulates very well why "caregivers" like us are attracted to the intensity of a BPD relationship and explains how that dysfunctional type of intensity is perceived as "love" by people like you and me because it reflects what we experienced at a young age with our parents. 

Simply stated, we confuse _being needed_ (for what we can do) for _being loved_ (for what we already are). Indeed, we even have difficulty recognizing and feeling true love. We tend to feel loved only when the person desperately needs us, adding an exciting romantic intensity to the relationship. That intensity is so addicting that, after stumbling out of a BPD relationship, many non-BPD people wonder if they are capable of falling in love with an emotionally stable person.


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## turnera

There's a great book you can read that's just about basic abuse, called Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men.


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## LVS

It seems like things are back getting worse I appreciate all what you said i will read the book turnera and will go to the site uptown but right now i am under shock can't think right now about analyzing his disorder i need to think about a way to move out i don't want to take my kids to live in a shelter and the family services didn't find me eligible for their program they said i make enough money to get a house i am lost renting a house where i love with one bedroom is not less than 700 and all i make is 1300 and i don't want to leave the city where my son is going to school and he started having friends who are the only thing that he enjoy right now specially after immigrating to United states two years ago
Here is the story
My husband broke the silence few days ago he said we need to talk to one another i am tired from everything so let's start talking at least when we have to deal about important things or we need to discuss about household or payment or even if we need to be with friends as a family it's a shame what we are living 
I said i don't care anymore about what people might say i care about my kids and what's the right to be done for them he agreed and i said i agree to talk to you in one condition if you talk to me with respect he agreed and we had a quiet conversation i was telling him that i found him more relaxed when not talking to me and i was relaxed too so maybe we can be friends better than husband and wife for the good of the kids and he was so calm and said yes
and a calm discussion saying if he can move to other house he would do it but the problem not enough financial resources 
This conversation relaxed me and made me feel maybe with time i will accept him back in my life or he will seek help to deal with his anger or if we are going to stay separated we can still be friends
Today was the earth quake everything crashed down it all started for silly discussion he started calling me names an yelling at me and talking bad about my parents and about me all this in front of my son to end this harsh i walked to my room and closed my door he walked after me yelling and screaming to not lock the door on his face he asked me to open it or he will break it i found him so serious and in uncontrolled rage so i opened the door than he was calling me back names and that he is going to divorce me 
but he is going to stay home over my head even he said if the law allow him he would kill me long time ago and live in peace


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## turnera

I'm so sorry. The best thing you can do is start saving money in a separate bank account that he can't access. Set a goal for when you will move. Don't tell him. Just do it. Start looking for places to live, take your time to find the right one for your son.

Here are some short-term things to do. 

Pack a little bag of your son's things like 3 or 4 days' worth of clothes, medicines, toys...that he doesn't need every day. Keep the bag in your car (you drive, right? If not, get your license NOW!). 

Pack a little bag of things YOU need, clothes, medicine, etc. Keep it in the car, too.

Pack a bag of nonperishable food that will keep you and your son fed for a few days, like crackers and canned meat and canned milk, etc. Keep it in your car.

These things are for an emergency, if your husband escalates. They are also for your peace of mind so that you know, if you get in another fight, you are READY to leave any instant, so that you don't feel trapped.

Next, always keep your car keys in your pocket and your purse either in your car or next to the door so you can grab it on the way out, and not have to go into the house somewhere to get it, and risk your husband trapping you somewhere. The worst violence occurs when you try to leave your home - the quicker you can make an exit, the safer you both will be.

If you don't drive, always keep $20 in your pocket so you can leave the home and call a cab and escape.

Finally, if you get in a fight, do NOT go into your bedroom and shut the door. This infuriates abusers and often makes them become violent. Instead, tell him when you are both calm that the next time he starts yelling at you, you will take your son and you will leave the house to give him time to calm down and to protect your son from hearing the abuse. The next time he yells, LEAVE!

This is called inforcing boundaries. He yells, you leave. Period. It's possible that, with time, he CAN learn to control his temper if you provide him consequences of his behavior by you leaving.

But by opening the door, you reinforced the ABUSE - you taught him that all he has to do, to get what he wants (to keep yelling at you), is yell LOUDER and SCARE you.

Teach him that you are now smarter than that, and he will have to respect you.

It will get better; it just takes learning new behaviors.

{{La vieux sage}}


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## Uptown

Le vieux, I am so sorry that things have gotten worse so quickly. Tunera's advice is excellent -- for protecting yourself, establishing personal boundaries, and having a quick escape route available. If your husband has strong BPD traits, he is incapable of trusting you and -- absent years of therapy -- incapable of regulating his emotions. That means you cannot trust him because he can turn on you with a vengence at any time.

There is a great support network of many folks like Turnera and me who have been through this painful process and can give you specific advice on what you should do for safety and what actions to avoid. It is at Nook-Support Group and Message Board, which is the forum section of BPDfamily.com.

It is the largest website that is solely dedicated to helping the spouses and partners of BPDers. Indeed, there are about 15 separate message boards at that website -- all of them devoted to helping people like you. It is so large that they get several "newbies" arriving every day.

Of the 15 message boards there, the ones most likely to help you probably are "Leaving," "Staying," "Divorce," and "Coparenting with a BPDer." But you can hop from board to board and find what is most useful. They generally advise the "Leaving" partners -- as Turnera has just advised you -- that you are at greatest risk of harm when moving out of the house and thus should never give advance notice to your H of your intent to leave permanently, should you decide that is what you want to do. This means leaving no traces on the computer (or in a drawer) revealing your intent. But telling him of your intent to leave for a cooling down period, as Tunera suggested, is a good thing to do -- far better than retreating to the bedroom when he is in a rage.

The folks at that site have seen it all and are well positioned to help you with all aspects of living with -- and separating from -- a H with this terrible disorder. I further suggest that, if you decide to participate on that site, you copy some of the background information you wrote here and paste it in their "New Members" section and paste it a second time in one of the other forums I mention above, e.g., "Leaving." And, of course, Turnera and I will still be here whenever you find it helpful to discuss things with us. Please be very careful.


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## SaveYourMarriage

HI!

Communication can be a real killer in a relationship. The way we were raised dictates a lot about how we act and react to certain situations. Maybe your husband has trouble putting his thoughts and fellings in a understandable fashion - reason why he ends up being verbally and emotionally agressive to you.

Here is a post about communication, I hope it can be of some help in your case: How Communication Can Save Your Marriage « It Could Save Your Marriage Blog

I will pray for you, my friend! Be brave!

Tiffany.


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## LVS

Today is the third day of discussions sometimes the conversations are calm sometimes they are rough
I am so confused yesterday morning he asked me to talk and he was giving me different options to get divorced and stay under the same roof or he moves and he can give me small amount of money to manage myself with what i make to pay all bills and we had discussion about our life and he was back blaming me for everything wrong in our life and what he did the day before was a reaction because of what i did to him all these years
i told him that he needs to start loving himself no matter what is the situation around him he needs to feel happy and the happiness should come from his inside not wait for it to come from anybody else and i said what made me take my decision was as i always told him because i was about to have a strong depression i was taking my problems to work and this was about to affect my situation at work i don't want to lose my job or my kids or myself 
i am not able to help you anymore you need to start helping yourself...........
He left to go get some groceries than he called me to ask me if i need anything which he didn't do it long time ago
When he came back he said he brought me something it was something i like to eat and since long time i didn't eat it i asked him why you brought it to me he said because when we had the morning conversation all what i said didn't interest him only one thing when i said i was taking my problems work he felt that i was unhappy when he was thinking that i don't care and i am happy for being living this situation i told him i am happy now i worked on myself to be happy and what happened was before i took my decision to change
and i asked him do you think the food that you brought for me is going to delete what happened yesterday
he said that what happened was because of me.......
we ended up the conversation with a question. He asked me what do i want
I said i want to leave in peace i don't want to go back to the way we were living i want respect for me and my kids
he said ok what do you want i told him i need to leave to work and that he is confusing me by asking me opposite things between now and the morning time so i need time to think clearly about all that
Today we had a discussion about an issue about our kids and he started back saying that it's my fault i don't know how to raise my kids i don't know how to deal with them and i let them do wrong things and i leave the discipline for him so my kids hate him and love me 
than i told him i agree with you about how you want to raise our kids i agree about the norms and the values we are at the same page but i never agree with the way you use with them yelling names calling screaming and cursing so he said it's all because of you you make me be like that when you don't take your role as a mother.........
I asked him ok now you said you don't see anything good in me i did everything bad to you i destroyed your life i didn't support you with anything i am the reason of any unhappiness in our home i am the one who destroyed the family can you tell me why you want me back why you are asking me to give you one last chance and you are still saying and feeling the same about me he said for the same reason that made me handle 28 years with you and i should know what is it i said you are back saying the same things if you are talking about love i don't feel this love i only feel hatred and if you really love me you would do something to save our marriage he said you need to help me i said i can't you need to help yourself and see psychologist to help you after that we both need to do marriage counseling he refused and he was yelling why i can't help him with everything i am reading about psychology so i should through all what i read they are useless and i am refusing to help him i said all what i read told me that i can't help you and you need a professional help if you try to read about you and what they say about our life and your situation and how to get help he was screaming and saying he doesn't want to read any sh*t and than he said ok it has been years you are planning to get to this point you want to leave me i said why i am planning for that he said to live your life free i said i wasn't planning you are pushing me away and why you don't allow me to live my life happy with you he said i was trying now but you didn't let me you want to leave 28 years of marriage like they never happened in your life and here is the deal tomorrow i am going to meet my family and i am going to tell them it's over and i am going to move to my mother's house and if i can give you some money i will but you need to know that if i leave this time it will be for ever i won't come back

I don't know what to do now him and all his family will see me as a criminal and he is the victim and everybody will be seeing me this way
Deep inside me i want to love him i don't want divorce but i can't go back to the same life i am confused i don't know what to do i am scared not from him i am not able to take the decision OMG i am coward i can advice anyone but me any decision to stay or leave both scare me 
please help me 

uptown i am not able yet to go to that forum i will on my days off turnera right i don't feel any danger on my life or my kids life especially with our last couple conversations
But my mind is full of confusion yesterday i felt happy and i felt i have all the power today i feel so weak he made me feel guilty he was crying while talking i feel my heart broken for him he is very depressed and i don't know what i can do to help him i really don't know i feel useless i can help anybody else and with all the knowledge that i have i can't help him


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## LVS

Even though i didn't mention it but i really appreciate all the time you gave to read my posts to find answers and to reply
Thank you


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## turnera

sage, you KNOW that what he says is wrong. I know, I know, after 20-30 years, it's hard to hear what he says and still believe in yourself. All he does is blame YOU for everything.

That is what abusers do.

They blame YOU.

So that they can control you.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go get some help for yourself.

You are so stuck into believing what HE says, and worrying what HIS family will think, that you have buried WHO YOU ARE.

You deserve better than this.

You CAN keep your marriage.

But not if you stay living together.

He HAS to have a reason to look at himself and want to change.

He will NEVER do that, until you have left him.

I am at the same page, unfortunately. My H emails in anger today because he's been sick and I and our daughter have not 'proven' our love of him by calling him every couple hours to check on him. Therefore we don't love him.

It's all our fault.

Do you see how ridiculous that is?

It will never change until you remove yourself from the equation.

If his parents think something of you, SO WHAT?

THEY don't have to live with him.

Take care of yourself. Get professional help. Go to Join the Live United Movement and ask them to find you help. You will not regret it. And neither will your kids. You HAVE to be healthy, to be a good mom to them.


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## Uptown

Le vieux, as before, I agree with Turnera. As much as you love your H, you cannot help him by staying with him. On the contrary, your staying there likely is detrimental to the both of you. It is harmful to him because you are enabling him to avoid confronting his illness and learning to control it. Because he cannot regulate his emotions very well, he needs to learn how to do self-soothing to calm himself down -- something that the rest of us started learning when we were 4 or 5. Yet, while you are there, you are his soothing object, i.e., he depends on you to help calm him down.

Moreover, he also must learn how to deal with the negative feelings he has about himself whenever he makes a mistake or falls short of completing some task. For the past 28 years, he completely avoided dealing with such hurtful thoughts about his inadequacies by projecting all of the blame onto you -- thereby externalizing the flaws and mistakes, getting them outside his body and into you. 

In that way, you have unwittingly been a dumping ground for every issue that he would find hurtful to deal with. And, as I explained earlier, this allowed him to avoid the issues because the projection was done at the subconscious level -- which is why he is able to actually believe the outrageous things he accuses you of doing -- things so absurd that you marveled that any human being would be able to say it and, at the same time, keep a straight face.

If you have any notion that he will appreciate your staying by his side, please let go of that fantasy. Until he completes years of therapy, he will remain incapable of appreciating your sacrifices for longer than a few days -- perhaps a week if you are lucky. He cannot do that because he cannot regulate the strong emotional tides that sweep through him -- sometimes several times a day. They push aside any good feelings he had about you. His feelings are so intense that, to him, they constitute facts and reality itself. That is why you cannot reason with him. For people like your H, they are not interested in finding solutions to a problem but, rather, only in obtaining drama.

Of course, leaving him is tearing you apart because, like me, the notion of leaving a sick man goes against your religion, everything you were taught as a child, everything your Monk brother is saying, and every fiber of your being. Yet, if you decide that leaving him is what you must do to protect your 12 year old and yourself, that is what you should do. Moreover, it will give your H the opportunity to confront his illness and work on it.

But, yes, you will likely need to start making new friends because you likely will lose the support network that his family has provided -- although, as far as I can tell, they provided you no support with regard to the abusive treatment. When my exW and I separated, she told her family that I was violent and a frequent liar. Actually, those were her traits and she had projected them onto me. So she had started telling them things like that two years earlier and the family had already started drifting away. 

Consequently, I lost five adult step kids and five grand kids. Very painful -- because I had loved them dearly for 16 years (and that has not changed). Indeed, I had helped put two of them through college and given two cars to one of them. But I got my true self back -- the real me instead of the caretaker who was always walking on eggshells. Not a bad trade. No, not bad at all.


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## LVS

turnera uptown thank you for your support you brought me up with teary eyes i was reading your reply i will go to that website and
i will do what you suggested 
uptown you said everything right turnera yes what you lived i am living it to same thing he says that i don't care about him and his illness and all i care is about myself
wow i am so blessed to join this forum thank you one more time

I have a question i was thinking to file for divorce and let him know i am serious about not going back to what i was living and getting divorce will take between 6 and 12 months this will be a time for him to decide and know what he wants
what do you think filing for divorce or just separating


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## turnera

I would file for separation, if it is available where you are.


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## Uptown

Le vieux, again, I agree with Turnera. One reason is that a separation offers him hope if he will only do the right thing and seek therapy. Another reason is that what you've said in your most recent posts indicates that you do not yet feel emotionally ready to file for divorce.

There is some hope that your H will have the courage and self awareness to learn to control himself. The chances, however, are not great. I do not say this to rob you of hope but, rather, so you have a realistic idea of what you are up against. Otherwise, you can get your hopes up way too high and be crushed once again. There are several things to consider.

First, most people suffering from BPD and NPD are so frightened of confronting their illness and taking responsibility for their own actions that they never do admit to themselves -- much less anyone else -- that they have it. Second, of those that do, many will not stay in therapy long enough to actually make a difference in their behavior. Or, as my exW did for 15 years, they will run through a small fortune of money attending therapy but not doing the work necessary to change. 

IMO, where current therapies are most successful with BPD (which my exW has) is in teaching low-functioning BPDers how to become high-functioning BPDers, who are then strong enough to hold a job. But your H is already high functioning, which means that he is capable of interacting in an appropriate way with strangers and casual friends -- who likely will never suspect that he has an illness. 

Significantly, it does not mean that he can sustain a relationship with someone who is close to him because, when people draw close, they pose a threat of abandonment. The success rate seems to be higher with the low-functioning people because they are suffering so intensely that they have a much stronger incentive to try something -- try anything -- to get better.

Third, regardless of whether you are separated or not, you will have the difficult task of finding out what diagnosis he has and what progress -- if any -- he is actually making in therapy. If he has BPD, you likely will not be told that name. Because insurance companies typically refuse to cover BPD (or cover only a few useless sessions a year), therapists may call it PTSD or refer to it vaguely as "a thought disorder." More likely, however, they will not mention any disorder but mention, instead, one of the symptoms (which is covered by insurance). Hence, because BPD is nearly always accompanied by depression or bipolar disorder, a common "diagnosis" for BPD is depression or bipolar.

I don't know that for fact. Rather, I am describing the experiences of numerous ex-spouses at several BPD websites I have participated in. I also am describing my own experiences with 6 psychologists over 15 years. None of them ever mentioned the term "BPD." Indeed, the last one we went to weekly for five years always responded to my inquiries about the "cause of her problems" with "I don't believe in using labels because they are not helpful." Only in the 5th year did she concede, at my insistence, that the illness is "a thought disorder." 

But, of course, she would not tell me which one of the personality disorders it was. Never mind that my exW is a classic textbook example of a BPD sufferer because she strongly exhibits all nine traits. So how did I find out? It occurred immediately after my exW separated from me, at which time I went online to several websites. I was simply blown away by how the BPD stories of other people sounded like my exW's life story, including the abuse she suffered in childhood. 

Another reason for the therapist's extreme reluctance to identify the illness is that "BPD" is such a feared term among the public that patients tend not to return when hearing it. The bottom line, then, is that if you want to know for sure what your H suffers from, you should go to your own psychologist (who thus has no obligations to your H) and describe your H's behavior in detail. In that case, he will have no reservations about telling you the unadorned truth.

Finally, assuming your H seeks therapy, there is the problem of being able to confirm that your H is making real progress. To win you back, he will be on his best behavior perhaps for many weeks. But, as you know all too well, that means nothing. Moreover, real progress likely will take several years, not six months. And it will not occur in the couples counseling sessions that you attend. Rather, it will occur mostly in the individual or group therapy sessions he attends without you. That is where he would be learning the techniques for controlling his emotions. I say "controlling" because the illness currently cannot be cured -- only managed by the BPDer himself. 

One big question, then, is how to verify progress so as to avoid waiting in vain for years. I don't know how. I am the last guy you should ask about that. Remember, I'm the one who foolishly waited 15 years and spent a small fortune -- all to no avail. I therefore suggest you raise that issue at the BPDfamily message boards mentioned above. You will find that there are many people there who going through this same process and are discussing these same issues. But don't give up on Turnera and me. We still want to share our experiences with you whenever you think that could be helpful.


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## LVS

I am so tired 
I am exhausted
I am tired to be the victim 
I need what i can't do
I do what i don't want
when this trauma will be ended ????
I feel you will be tired of my confusion i am so sorry for that
I live in ambivalent feelings
I am really tired 
do I leave or do I stay??!!!!!
turnera and uptown i really appreciate all your efforts
I joined the BPD family but so many things to read about that i am tired of reading about the same thing i am tired of searching for solution i am tired of doing anything i need to give up but i keep fighting 
I never hate a person in my life even those who hurt me but i hate his way and hate being in confusion and unable to act.
I told you i was thinking to file for divorce and you advice me for legal separation and all what both of you said gave me the reason to leave with no regret
Yesterday i was all day at work came at night and went straight to my room
Today morning he knocked my door i was awake sitting in my bed reading back your replies 
he asked me if i want to get up and get my coffee i said i am going to get it

For the first time in the 28 years he started my coffee
i had breakfast and made my coffee he was waiting for me to talk 
so many thoughts came in my mind i felt something is going to drive me insane 
i told him let me get a paper bc my memory won't help me I have a strong headache not able to concentrate
I let him do his speech and listen to him while writing 
He started saying yesterday i was thinking it's over and no way to live together anymore so I am going to pack and leave
but than something made me think for the first time in positive way i turned all my thoughts to the opposite side i pictured me and you like two destroyed rooms one of them is not totally destroyed which represent you so i think we can fix the room which is not completely destroyed
28 years of marriage let's say 95% was bad and 5% good i mean the kids
so you gave me wonderful kids i won't forget that you were my partner for 28 years and you are the mother of my kids
I know i lost all this life at least let me gain the end of it help me to go to heaven instead of going to hell 
I decided even if our relationship didn't work i have a duty toward you at least to correct you spiritually physically to be healthier and be better at work and in life to be back as you were 20 years ago 
i don't want the kids to be the victim
with all what i can do i will try to comfort you because when you are fine everybody in the house will be fine
and before you say i said this before i am ready to sign you a paper where i say that everything i am doing with no obligation and not to tell you later i did this or i did that
I need to not regret anything i need to let you relax you suffered more than enough
this is my duty toward you
and even if you asked me to leave this house i would never do that because it will be destroyed and it will be impossible for you to assume the responsibility alone 
This was his speech
I asked him what did you mean how I was 20 years ago he said ambitious and smiling and comfortable in front of the others and in front of your kids
I said I am still ambitious and I am a happy person everywhere and I don't want to be as I was 20 years ago now I feel better and I am happier so you don't need to work on this point
than you don't need to worry about me if you leave because I can handle all my responsibilities and I can find resources to help me so also this point you don't need to worry about it 

he said who will bring you grocery and all what you need I said I don't need someone who fills my house food I need someone who fills my heart my mind and my life 
I said all what you talk about is what you want to do to me and to the kids tell me what do you want what do you need I know you need time away to think about it why you don't go and take your time and find out what you want what you like if you don't start loving yourself and knowing what you want you can't do anything positive in your life
he said why you want me out of your life why!!!
I told him ok tell me what is your plan how you are going to change he said a word can change me
I said don't expect me to change my decision because all your words won't change me. You've let me down for so may times I can't trust your words and promises anymore I did nothing wrong to you I never disrespected you I never called you name I never cursed you I never screamed at you you did all these and more
He said don't prejudge me this time I want to change and don't bring the past
I said tell me how you are going to deal with your anger with the kids he said I am going to try but I need help and don't tell me psychologist or therapist
I said we still need marriage counselor he said everything they are going to say I know it I said you might know it but you don't know the way to do it the therapist will help both of us he said I don't like to see any of them why you don't want to try this time
I said not the first time I hear this kind of words he said this time is different 
anyway I can't think anymore I need to think and give you my decision I don't want to say something and change it later now I have headache and not able to think clearly he said ok take your time

Later he was planning to take our son to a place to have fun and my H asked me if I go with them I said I can't I need some rest but in fact I don't want to go with him anywhere
He asked me if he brings me something to eat I said no thanks and he left but he was during the day and in front of my kids talking to me as if we are really back together and his way of talking with the kids was great way
I am feeling bad because for him and the kids it seems like everything has being solved
I wish I can feel the same nothing of what he said gives me hope not even his caring way now I feel trapped 
Four days each day 360% of change that's too much in short time. I am really tired. It was a very long post I am really sorry. But wasn't funny lol Sometimes if you don't smile you will have to cry


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## turnera

I hope you're doing better now.

I'm sure you know that we predicted he would do this. They all do. All abusers have a 'come to Jesus' moment the instant they realize you really are serious about kicking them out. 

If I were you, I would tell him that he needs to move out, and you will give the relationship SIX months; you will continue to see him, but he cannot sleep in your home for six months; he must leave every night, or you will file the next day. He will go to therapy and you will see real progress, or you will not let him back into the home. He will apologize to the kids, your parents if you need that from him, and he will do what YOU ask for, not what HE thinks he should do for you; if he can't go six months doing what YOU ask for, instead of what he wants, he is not sincere about changing.

Above all, do NOT accept him at all without him going to weekly therapy for those six months. And he needs to be tested for BPD and diagnosed - that YOU will hear from the doctor. He will NEVER change unless you do this step. And you deserve better than that.


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## ADM

Ohhhh, u made me cry  and made me feel ashamed for what I'm pretending to be the end of the world. How could you have possibly been dealing with all this for so long...and how strong and courageous you must be for rethinking your life even when hope is gone and desire to leave has weakened. Bravo!! I fancy you.

Be strong and don't give up. Life will smile you back one day, I'm sure. I took notes of so many of your thoughts...I hope I had the same courage and desire to live.


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## Uptown

> I feel you will be tired of my confusion -- i am so sorry for that.


No, not tired at all. Like ADM and Turnera, I am so proud of you. You are very strong and courageous to be holding up so well -- and to be resisting his attempt to suck you back into the toxic relationship. As Turnera said, it was predictable that he would try.


> When this trauma will be ended? ...I feel trapped.


It ends when you decide. You are in control. You are not trapped -- that is just a feeling. As I explained earlier, you are the glue that is holding the toxic relationship together. 

Please let go of the attitude that the toxicity is something he is doing to you. That sort of thinking gives all of the power to him. Instead, you should realize that the toxicity is something that you two are doing to each other. It takes two people to sustain a toxic relationship. This attitude is empowering because it means that you are in control. It stops when you want it to stop.

His contribution to the toxicity is obvious. Your contribution -- and the way in which you have harmed your H -- is your repeated decisions over the past 28 years to keep returning to him, enabling him to avoid confronting his illness and seek therapy. By being a "soothing object," you have been an enabler who enables him to avoid learning how to sooth himself -- something the rest of us learned in early childhood.


> I joined the BPD family but so many things to read about that i am tired of reading about the same thing i am tired of searching for solution.


Le vieux, you are making wonderful progress. Don't be discouraged if you start feeling overwhelmed. It happened to all of us who were trying to break away from a BPD type relationship. Even if you cannot muster the resolve to leave him now, it will happen soon. You already know too much to go back to your earlier totally confused way of thinking. At this point, righteous indignation and anger are your friends. When you get angry at the horrible way he has treated you, hold onto that anger. Use it as a crutch to get you and your children out of this dangerous marriage. After you've been free of him for a year, kick the crutch aside and let go of your anger at that time. Right now, it likely is the only thing that will enable you to overcome your irrational guilt of leaving him.


> I said tell me how you are going to deal with your anger with the kids -- he said I am going to try but I need help and don't tell me psychologist or therapist


You cannot convince him of anything by trying to reason with him. He does not allow you to communicate with the adult logical part of his mind. Because his emotions are unregulated and intense, he gives you access only to the intuitive, child-like part of his mind which believes that the intense emotions are a fact. It's almost as bad as him saying "Here, talk to the hand." Actually, it is that bad because what he is actually saying is "Here, talk to my child." 

You are trying to reason, then, with the "inner child" of a man who has the emotional development of a 4 year old. It cannot be done. I say that after having spent 15 years trying to do it with my exW. I never was able to do it either. Untreated BPDers are only interested in creating drama, not finding compromises or solutions. That is why marriage counseling is not productive until he has gone through years of therapy with a psychologist who is highly trained in treating BPDers. 

I therefore strongly recommend that, instead of trying to reason with him, simply tell him (or give him a list) of your conditions for remaining in the marriage, e.g., that he go to weekly therapy with a psychologist. (As I discussed before, you should see your own psychologist to find out for certain that his behavior exhibits strong BPD traits, as you suspect.) Make it clear that the conditions are non-negotiable and don't waste time arguing about them. Then, if he declines to comply -- you file for separation or divorce.

If you are not emotionally ready to take such action, don't insist yet that he comply with the conditions. Do it only when you are ready to back it up. At that point, when you are able to do that, you will know -- perhaps for the first time in your life -- what it feels like to have strong personal boundaries, being able to stand up for yourself and your children. I eventually reached that point, so I can tell you that it feels good. Very good. Even then, however, it took me at least two more years of healing before I was ready to start dating again. 

Being married to a BPDer is damaging and causes such confusion that many partners start believing that they are the one with the illness. So please know that you are doing well, that you can only absorb so much information each day, and that you making good progress. Even if you cannot separate from him at this time, you will get there if he will not choose to fix himself instead of pretending that he is a victim. Turnera got there. So did I.


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## turnera

Le vieux, do you have someone you are sharing this with? A friend or family member?

PLEASE please find someone, and confide in them. You MUST get some comfort, ok?


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## LVS

i have another long thread to add but first i want to reply to
turnera you asked me if I have a friend who I can trust the answer is NO 
I have a friend I talk to him over the phone he is in Canada it is not enough I know and
I have one close friend but I can't trust her for one reason just because she is my H brother's wife
but I am trying to find friends with whom I can share activities because as I said once that I left my country 2 years 6 months ago and left all my friends there. 
Making new friends here not easy but also not hard and hopefully I will start back going to the gym bc I am paying membership and not going lol
and tomorrow I might be able to get authorization code to register for online class so I am trying to fill my time with useful things I know why you are worried and I am so grateful for you and uptown being supporting me during this time and I appreciate your care thank you


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## LVS

ADM i really appreciate your encouragement and warm words you touched my heart and drew a smile on my face thank you for your positive text
Don't worry i am a happy person full of hope no matter what 
I know i have my weak times as a human been but people like you uptown and turnera are great support for me and my faith empowers me back and i am in good relation with God and he fills my heart of joy this is the secret of my happiness
Thank you


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## LVS

Now what i did you might not agree totally with me but i felt i need that
i couldn't be as strong as your advice was turnera i couldn't ask him to live outside home
as much as i say thank you turnera and uptown it won't be enough for all the effort that you are giving to support me but in my next post you will understand why i did that

uptown i will keep in mind all what you and turnera said they will be my next step


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## LVS

I am a very sociable outgoing person who loves life and love to be always happy 
I know I have times where things are more than I can handle until I make my adjustment to handle more but no more letting go 
When I find myself trapped or unable to decide is very hurtful to me
But than the fighter in me starts to wake up again lol  otherwise how do you think I survived till now


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## LVS

Today morning I went to an office that gives free legal advice I already went 2 months ago to get some information about divorce but today I filled the papers that I should give, it's the step before filing for divorce I asked all the information about legal separation and divorce and all the charges than I came back home and asked him to talk 
I talked about everything happened during our last 4 days of conversations which are 14, 15, 16, and 18th of April
He said forget about those I didn't mean them
I said whether you meant or not you have no right to say what you said and I don't trust what you said yesterday when in 4 days each day you twisted your mind 180 degree 
he agreed 
I said and because Saturday you mentioned divorce ... He interrupted me and said why you are going back to the past I said because you did what made you feel comfortable and I am now doing what makes me feel comfortable.
So no matter what you said yesterday I did what we agreed to do it when you told me about divorce I filled these papers all what left is to file for divorce and it won't cost as much as you said it is much less
Now, after what you said yesterday, I am thinking to give our marriage one last chance it is for both of us for you to see if you can do any progress in our relationship and for me to see if I can be closer to you or accept you one more time in my life and it's in one condition we stay separated under the same roof no intimacy you stay in the other room but we can start dating like two persons who don't know each other we can go out or start doing activities together or with kids we can plan the time when we can be together and when each one has his or her free time (by the way I know it's a dream it never happened in our marriage we never had anything in common I tried so many times to share activities but it didn't work because he doesn't like to do anything and if we do any activity together he end it up with a fight or criticism or any type of emotional abuse) 
6 months (almost like your advice tunera I know I could ask him to spend the nights in his mothers house but what I did made me feel better and empowered me. What do you think? Plus i don't have to finish the 6 months if something wrong happened)so I said 6 months is a long time to try but it's a short one compared to 28 years I won't brake this marriage without giving last chance for the 28 years that we lived together and for our kids but no way to go back to the same life again I have my boundaries won't be crossed anymore and I am really serious about that and before you think or tell me I became Americanized and I kicked my culture I like to say it's true I have here more rights but I like to remind you of something in our country and culture Man has more privileges and rights than the Woman but abuse is not acceptable and no one of my friends or the people I know is living in abuse like I lived with my FATHER AND YOU

He was listening quietly and agreed to everything I said
and I told him also that we need to find time to write agreements about what to do or not to do ( I gave myself time to think what to write ... welcome to any suggestion )
Finally I am still looking to find free counseling and I will ask him to join after I start myself
I know that I don't want to dream to much but he is showing the intention to work on our relationship and this is the first time I am so serious and I am ready to end up our marriage this power in me feared him and I have now so many knowledge about the abuse and the BPD and by the way turnera I ordered the book Why Does He Do That because I still don't trust him. uptown the BPD family has lot of articles to help how to deal with BPDers It is hard I know and it is risky of failure I understand but
after all the knowledge that I have and the confidence and strength that I built I feel like turnera said I can set strict boundaries and stick on them and try to deal with him in a right way after understanding his disorder After all it worth to give a try
Uptown and turnera I ca feel now what you are predicting I know he might not keep his words for long time but don't worry if it didn't work I won't be under shock I will know I did the right thing in front of God, in front of his family and mine and especially my kids. During this time I will keep my kids and especially my son who lives in my country informed about the situation I will be honest with them about his disorder
It could be the beginning of the end but for sure it should be the end of suffering. I am full of the rational hope
I am ready for the challenge.


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## ADM

It's great what you have decided to do and especially for being so calm in taking your decisions. It is sure that the security you're showing will make him change at least on the way he'll be perceiving you and that will change the dominance in the relationship.

Your courage and the clear way you see and plan things is adorable.

Good luck!


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## turnera

Excellent!

You did VERY well! FAR better than I have ever done! I am very proud of you!

I would only add two things: don't ASK him to attend counseling. TELL him that you WILL be divorcing him at the end of six months if he doesn't go to counseling with you. (Once he goes, he may realize it does him a lot of good and get something out of it; or he may not; but at least he's going.)

Also, let him know NOW that if he tries to get in your bedroom, you will call the police and have him removed from the house. Abusers often end up raping their wives, once the wife stands up to them.


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## LVS

ADM thanks for the encouragement i did what i felt i won't regret one day
even though i don't have so much hope he will change because i am not psychologist or therapist even a specialist most the time can't solve her own problems instead she might seek help from another therapist lol 
but i know i did what i can see clearly that it is the right thing to be done


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## LVS

turnera you made me feel more proud of myself
thank you
about counseling i have poor chances that he might attend any session but what i have in my hands is the power not to control him but to work to not allow any controlling action from his side to happen and this will be my everyday homework wow lot of attention bc i also helped him every time i let go things to become this controller
like today he took an appointment with the family physiologist for my everyday headache without asking me what time i need or even that he is taking for me an appointment now in return i won't allow him to go with me to that appointment 
if i walk in his shoes it is also a big pressure on him i don't want things to bottle up and than explode that's why i know we need third part he has so much to learn and he is not this person who accept someone else especially me to tell him what to do or to teach him any lesson he always pretend that he knows everything

About my room he never enter it after our separation and my daughter of 17 years old is sleeping in my room she moved to my room after a fight with her dad and he spent 2 months not talking to her 
he just started talking to her the first day we had conversation and fought on 14th April and this is confusing my why he did that maybe he is trying to make brain wash for my kids i don't know anyway she is still sharing my room and he is sleeping in the second room with my son
so this won't allow him to come at any night to my room 
even i don't guaranty that he won't do that during daytime but as long as he didn't attack me before i can't give him any warning for me it is like telling him you can do that or give him an idea to hurt me he will keep it in mind and maybe use it one day 
i know he can't control his anger but i don't want to live with this fear
maybe if things worsen back i will be at this risk because now he knows that at anytime i could file for divorce and i felt in our conversation that this point scared him even he tried to comment in a very quiet way


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## turnera

The thing about the counseling is that you DO have control over whether you will remain married to a man who refuses to do what YOU need to stay married to him.

In other words, if you tell him that the only way you will stay married to him is if he starts attending counseling, and keeps going until you are on better footing, then HE has a choice:

Attend counseling, or get divorced.

So, see, you DO have control. You just have to take it.


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## Uptown

> If it doesn't work I won't be under shock -- I will know I did the right thing in front of God, in front of his family and mine and especially my kids.


Le vieux, there is no way it can work. Keeping a sick H around without insisting that he be in weekly therapy is the same old thing you've been doing for 28 years. Yes, I understand that you have a deep, gut-level _feeling_ that doing this is the "right thing." That is the intuitive inner-child part of your mind that feels this way. The intellectual adult part knows very well that this is the _wrong_ thing to do. It will end just like it has a hundred times over 28 years. God knows it. Your H's family knows it. Perhaps even your kids know it.

That said, I am not disappointed in your progress. On the contrary, I am still amazed at how much progress you are making. Like Turnera, I never did as well as you are doing right now. 

The problem, of course, is that we are capable of learning very quickly about something (e.g., BPD) at an intellectual level but it can take many months longer for us to be able to internalize it and feel it intuitively -- at a gut level. Until we reach that point -- turning knowledge into wisdom -- we are extremely reluctant to act on that new information. 

Hence, _what you feel intuitively_ is going to lag behind _what you know intellectually _for a while -- perhaps for many months. This is a normal part of your growth process. It does NOT mean that you are not making good progress. Until your intuition catches up with your intellect, however, I am going to remain very concerned for your safety. Please be careful, gentle lady.


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## LVS

uptown you hit the point
i know you are right my heart is sore
you analyse it right i know that inside my mind all what you said is right
i am tired from being strong and wise but i can't be weak i am scared to brake down i am alone 
i want to cry but i don't 
i want to run away but i can't 
i want to scream but nobody will hear my voice because i kill it inside me
O uptown what can i do??????
i know that i will soon be in front of 2 choices: go back to the same life or leave my marriage 

I am exhausted from the years of abuse
now i need to set boundaries and stand up for them and it will be very soon tiring me though i am already tired because it's almost with everything he does he shows his controlling way saying things is different than doing them even if he has the intention to improve our relationship he got the habit to control everything 
i know now if i got married to a BPDer who doesn't know me before i can deal with him so much better than with my H because we know each other and he got use to do things in certain way since 28 years


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## turnera

I think the best thing you can do for the short term is to read as much as you can about setting boundaries. Whether he's BPD or just plain abusive or just immature and selfish, YOU can only control your side. And you do that by establishing boundaries. 

It does give you a sense of control, if only tiny. An example: You tell him that you will no longer accept a raised voice against you; that from now on, any time ANYONE raises their voice to you, you will get up, leave the room or the house, and not come back until you've had time to soothe yourself and hopefully give the other person a chance to stop yelling.

It does NOT require him to do anything; it merely tells him what YOU will do if he continues to act poorly. 

Read up on boundaries and how to set them. It will give you a sense of control over your life.


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## LVS

He is all what you said BPD and abusive and sometimes and in certain things i see him selfish and stupid
He won't change without a third part saying the things that i say that he cannot admit from me the therapist is the best to help him maybe to change 
i know that but there is one more thing I didn't tell you about it and it is ripping me from inside 

He showed me papers and said look at these papers see i am seeing psychologist and i do care about our relationship 

I looked to the papers; questionnaire about life and depression.... till now sounds good
but the most awful thing is that he told the psychologist that all the negativity and depression that he is going through is because of his injury and being lay off work which happened few months ago(so he can't mention any issue older than few months, he can't take me with him because I will say different things and the most awful thing too is we can't also see any other therapist or psychologist because it will be on his record on the internet and he will lose his case)
I told him you said you care for our relationship? how?tell me how you care when you do such horrible think?
He was upset because as he said he do care and he was yelling that whatever he does I don't agree....

That was very stupid or very selfish and I am very mad sometimes I have a feeling that he is using everything even me for his personal interest 

Now he has a legal reason to not seek professional help
Tell me know now how much you see me stupid to remain trying to keep a marriage and always search and look how to fix it when he wants to keep it but without doing anything from his side??!!!!!!


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## Uptown

> Tell me how much you see me stupid to remain trying to keep a marriage and ... fix it when he wants to keep it but without doing anything from his side?


Le vieux, your reluctance to act has nothing to do with being stupid or intelligent. As I explained above, your adult mind already knows very well what should be done. Instead, your reluctance has everything to do with the control that your inner child (i.e., the intuitive part of your mind) has over your actions. Your inner child simply is not yet ready to believe your adult's conclusions.

This problem is not unique to you. On the contrary, all human beings have this problem because the inner child likely makes at least 90% (if not 95%) of our important decisions. I was 50 years old before I understood this simple idea. And it took me 12 years to do it. 

What happened was that I took my bipolar foster son to a weekly "family group" meeting with the psychologist who was treating him. Whenever the psychologist challenged me on something, I always had an elaborate well-thought-out explanation for doing whatever I had chosen to do. Never mind that what I had chosen was not working with my foster son and never mind that I kept repeating the same pattern year after year. 

The psychologist was greatly amused by my explanations. He would laugh and point out, in his kindly fashion, that my elaborate rationalizations could not disguise the fact that my inner child -- not my adult -- was calling all the shots, making all the decisions. In any contest between the adult and child, he claimed, the child would nearly always win. But, regarding myself as such a logical person, I just could not swallow that notion.

Yet, after twelve years of his gentle rebuke, it dawned on me one night why he had to be right. The child, I suddenly realized, is the sole judge of what is _fun_ and what is _not fun_. That decision is all powerful. The adult part of my mind will nearly always conclude that it makes no sense -- indeed, would be preposterous -- to do something, go somewhere, or date someone I do not enjoy. My adult logic thus nearly always has to end up in my child's lap. 

This is why, following my separation from my exW, I spent another six months trying to persuade my child that my adult views of her illness are correct. If I had failed in that effort, I would have remained stuck in the 15-year destructive pattern, repeating my past mistakes over and over. I had to take the time -- whatever was necessary -- to convince my child because he is the part of me who calling nearly all of the shots. 

Even after I my child agreed with my adult to file the divorce papers, I kept in contact with her for more than two years. She kept calling me every two weeks and we kept meeting at a restaurant about once a month. Of course, my adult knew throughout the entire two-year period that it was unhealthy and painful for me to keep doing that. But it took that long to convince my child to go "No Contact." This is why, when I said above that you are doing far better than I managed to do, I really meant it.

The thing that was convincing to my child was my exW's response to a question I asked when she was insisting that we be friends again. I asked, "After all this time, do you still believe that I am a very violent person who lies all the time?" I asked that to determine if she had made any progress whatsoever in understanding that those were her characteristics that she had projected onto me. She quickly replied, "Oh yes, I still do believe that."

I responded, "Well, my friends don't believe that. My family doesn't believe that. Even my worst enemy doesn't believe it. But because you persist in believing it, I now realize that we are not friends and never will be again." That was about 18 months ago and we have not spoken to each other since.

As you can see, it was easy for me to know what I should do. What was hard -- and I mean really really hard -- was being able to _feel_ it is the right thing to do. That intuitive understanding -- what I consider "wisdom" -- is especially hard to achieve when you are deciding to leave a loved one whom you know is sick -- an action I finally took. It also is hard when you are deciding to not speak again to a person whom you had thought was a friend for 40 years -- another action I eventually took.

My point, then, is that you should stop beating yourself up over your inability to accomplish in a week what took me six months to do -- AFTER I had found BPD information on the web and thus had an intellectual understanding of how I was enmeshed in a relationship toxic to both my exW and me. 

Le vieux, give yourself some time if you need it. If the child in you is still not ready to back you up -- and it appears she is not -- don't tell your H that you will file for divorce if he does not meet your boundary conditions. Otherwise, he will learn that you are just bluffing and then will not believe you when you are able to establish strong personal boundaries -- which is your goal. Meanwhile, it should be helpful to keep reading about toxic relationships, e.g., the book Turnera recommended. 

Also helpful will be the "Leaving" and "Staying" message boards at BPDfamily.com. The folks there will give numerous helpful suggestions for dealing with an abusive H, regardless of what causes it. And, of course, you should be seeing your own psychologist for professional guidance as to what you are dealing with and how you can best strengthen your personal boundaries. Remember, as you keep reading, writing and talking about your H's abusive behavior and how to deal with it, that lag between your knowledge and intuition is getting smaller every day.


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## turnera

Le vieux sage said:


> but the most awful thing is that he told the psychologist that all the negativity and depression that he is going through is because of his injury and being lay off work which happened few months ago(so he can't mention any issue older than few months, he can't take me with him because I will say different things and the most awful thing too is we can't also see any other therapist or psychologist because it will be on his record on the internet and he will lose his case)


LVS, this is him twisting on you again. What he says here IS NOT TRUE. He is depending on your ignorance of the facts to get you to just do what he wants.

First, therapy is PRIVATE. No therapy he goes to will enter into any 'case' he has unless HE is on trial for some crime. And even then, it's rarely admissable. He is lying to you. To control you.

Second, it's a lie that his past has nothing to do with any current depression, and any qualified therapist KNOWS that. Again, he is lying.

Third, you CAN contact this therapist and tell him your side. It will have NOTHING to do with whether he gets layoff pay or whatever it is he's trying to get.

Fourth, there's no way any person involved would ever KNOW you were seeing the same therpist. Nor would they care. He is lying to you to control you.

CALL THE THERAPIST AND MAKE AN APPOINTMENT.



> I told him you said you care for our relationship? how?tell me how you care when you do such horrible think?
> He was upset because as he said he do care and he was yelling that whatever he does I don't agree....


 So he's yelling again? Why don't you leave the room like I suggested? He can't yell at you if you're not in the room.



> That was very stupid or very selfish and I am very mad sometimes I have a feeling that he is using everything even me for his personal interest


Now you are beginning to understand how an abuser thinks. It *IS* _all about him. _You are just a tool to get him what he wants. Abusers don't understand love. They can't. They just WANT. 



> Now he has a legal reason to not seek professional help


WRONG! He has NO legal reason to not seek help. He is blowing smoke up your behind. To control you.




> Tell me know now how much you see me stupid to remain trying to keep a marriage and always search and look how to fix it when he wants to keep it but without doing anything from his side??!!!!!!


 Keeping from changing themselves, while they control everything around them, is ALL abusers do.

They don't want to change. They never will. Unless YOU change the playing field and no longer do what he wants.


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## LVS

turnera 
i just want to say that this happened few days ago 
the yelling and about the papers and the psychologist 
it's before i give him the 6 months trial

uptown and turnera i need to reread your replies to take my time and revalue my situation 
i have so much in my mind i don't know what his plan now he seems like he wants to fix things very respecting me and very calm while talking with kids i know the cycle of abuse but i don't know this time of it's a good start to change
i think time will tell i don't want to rash things
i know if something is going to change it is going to take much more than the 6 months but i need to see in him the honest intention to do something which still not clear for me yet

i also was reading an article at BPD family and they said it doesn't help if he enters therapy to please me or fear of me divorcing him this is little confusing me again about what is the right to be done 

what do you think?


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## Uptown

> i know if something is going to change it is going to take much more than the 6 months.


No, not if YOU are the one who changes. Then it could happen tomorrow. When you are ready to build strong personal boundaries and ENFORCE them, I suggest that you re-read all of Turnera's posts. She urges you to go to a safe place and gives you specific advice for leaving and for leaving very quickly. 

Indeed, the most important response in this thread, IMO, is her post providing explicit instructions for preparing a suitcase, keys, and numerous other things so you are ready in case you need to leave immediately when he is raging. Turnera has fought her own way to the end of the tunnel. She knows the way out. And she has been sharing it with you from the beginning of this thread.

When you are ready to change your own behavior, you can ignore all of my posts because they are only intended to move you closer to that point -- by helping your intuition catch up with what you already know should be done. Toward that end, I have been chipping away at the three overpowering feelings that keep caregivers like us mired in toxic relationships: confusion, sense of obligation, and guilt. 

To address the _confusion_, I explained why the natural course of events for these relationships is an endless cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back that can make any spouse feel that she is going crazy. To control you, your H has been invalidating your feelings, making you doubt your own perceptions. I therefore have tried to validate them by explaining why the things he says are irrational -- if not outright lies -- because he likely is a slave to his own unregulated emotions. 

To address the heavy _sense of obligation_, I explained that staying around to fix him is a fool's errand -- an impossible task -- because only he can do it. Nor are you obligated to stay around waiting for him to develop an interest in doing it, given that he hasn't shown one spark of interest in 28 years. In that regard, therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance of "flying to the moon strapped to a banana" than seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference in his behavior. 

At this point, then, your primary obligations are to your childrens' welfare and your own emotional health. You must decide for yourself what is best for your children. As to your emotional health, improving it means that you build stronger personal boundaries and learn that being needed by your H (to serve as his soothing object and emotional dumping ground) is NOT the same thing as being loved for the woman you are.

Finally, to address the tremendous _guilt_ you have over wanting to "break your vows" and leave him, I discussed how this toxic relationship is not something your H is doing to you. Rather, it is something you are doing to each other. Your being an "enabler" is harming him by allowing him to use you as a soothing object and thus avoid accepting responsibility for his own actions. He also avoids confronting his disorder and working to control it. Hence, by leaving, you likely would be doing both of you a favor.


> ...at BPDfamily they said it doesn't help if he enters therapy to please me or from fear of me divorcing him -- this is confusing me again -- what do you think?


I think they are correct. You cannot make someone want to fix himself. He has to want it badly, especially when it is the very difficult task of learning to control one's own emotions. IMO, the only way he can do it is by meeting three conditions: (a) being sufficiently self aware to recognize that he has a serious emotional dysregulation problem, (b) finding a good psychologist who has experience in treating men with his problems, and (c) being strongly committed to staying with the therapy long enough to make a real difference. 

If he fails to satisfy those 3 conditions -- and, so far, he hasn't satisfied even one -- the therapy likely will not help at all. Like my exW did for 15 years with 6 different psychologists, he likely will just play mind games with them. The reason -- if he has strong BPD traits as you suspect -- is that his self image is so fragile and unstable that he is terrified of admitting to small mistakes, much less a serious flaw in his personality.


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## turnera

I'll give you another example. I protected my H for a good 25 years. Never told him anything negative about himself because he would blow up if I even HINTED that he wasn't the bee's knees. I supported him and never called him out on his outrageous behavior for many reasons, just like Uptown describes, but mostly because of my OWN fear of confrontation (which I learned from childhood). I would do anything, subject myself to anything, just to keep him from _disliking_ me. 

How sad is that? In that path, I lost myself so much so that I tried to kill myself several times, because the only way out I saw required that I stand up to him.

And I simply couldn't. I had become so connected to him and his feelings, through all the years supporting him and soothing him, that I no longer felt capable of being anything BUT his soother. I'd die before I'd shake that up.

Until I finally found another website like this, where they stood by me, and started gently (and not so gently) pushing me to stand up for myself. To walk away from him when he yelled. To tell him he didn't have the RIGHT to yell at me. To tell him that his daughter was afraid of him. To NOT stand next to him in the store when he yelled at the poor cashier, so that he had to experience the shame of what he was doing on his own. 

Finally, to tell him that I had just simply had enough, and that I was going to file for divorce if things didn't change. Granted, I couldn't just walk up to him and say so, I was so entwined with him, it had to happen during a fight and when I was drunk enough to speak my mind. But I told him. 

And things turned around.

Because he finally heard from me that I would NOT stay with him, no matter what, if he didn't change.

People like them simply have to understand that you will NOT continue to support and soothe them, if they don't start giving back.

But that has to come from YOU.

YOU have to be ready to walk away from him.

If you can't, you have to say 'I give up; I'll never be happy because I can't leave him, so I am giving up hope of any happiness for the rest of my life.'

Please don't do that to yourself.


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## LVS

Turnera I am sorry for what you had to live until trying to suicide in fact I had the thought of suicide many times but having my kids needing me by their side I was scared to leave them with him that kept me fighting for them but in fact the fight was for me
Good that your problem has been solved and your life is better now without having to leave him 
I have few questions
Since how long have you been doing therapy? 
After how long of starting therapy you started to feel progress and change?
Does it work like you want it?
Were you still love him when you started therapy? If no do you love him now?
How do you describe your life now as a couple?
Do you still have a thought to give up and leave the marriage?
For so many others even if they tried therapy they may not succeed to keep their marriage like uptown case; what do you think the reason of your success? 
I allowed myself to ask you personal questions I hope I am not bothering you but those some questions that concern me and also worry me?
Uptown what's on the other side?

A big part of me wants to stay and a big part wants to leave
my mind my heart and my soul have left him long time ago it's only my obligation toward my kids my family my religion and my culture that keeping me with him not my love 
if you read about the emotional needs i never ever found any of them with him i was accepting him because i chose him as my husband for the whole life
and before you wonder if there is someone else in my life i say NO
but it's something i dream of it everyday to have one person who loves me the way i am and i love him heart body and soul i wish my husband was this one I want to love him because he is my husband and the father of my 4 kids but nothing makes me love him or want him. He did a very good job through the years by killing in me any feeling of love toward him all i feel for him is the feeling that i can give to anybody who needs help 
i don't know i am crying while writing that but this is the truth that my mind knows it but i still hope that maybe I will be able to love him maybe I will be able to grow old with him in the way I dream but I know dreams never come true if both of us didn't work to make them real
turnera uptown you are two wonderful persons I love all your threads If you have any more advice please don't hide it I am trying to revalue everything


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## turnera

Well...

I married him because it was what you did, back in the 70s. You either married, or you were a failure. I left an abusive relationship and went straight to him, out of self-hating. He wanted me, so I went to him. He was great at first, but VERY insecure. Every time I'd see friends or family, he would tear them up; he made it miserable for me to be with anyone but him. So I gave up everyone, to keep the peace. I don't know if I ever loved him. I wanted to, but I had been numb so long due to childhood issues that I've truly never really felt much out of self-protection. 

After DD19 was born, and he didn't pick up the slack and I was doing all the housework, all the childraising (except the fun part) and working full time...I started having body issues. My stress started revealing itself in my body. I couldn't move my neck at one point, and my GP (also H's doctor) asked me what I did for fun, for myself. I told him nothing. He sent me to a stress therapist, who was wonderful. She said that 85% of all her patients are women because we try to do everything and never ask for anything from the man, and he rarely offers. 

It was just exercises though, not life changes. Got worse. Finally went to a company sponsored therapist (it was free; took me 3 years to get the nerve to go see her, due to my toxic shame). She helped me see that my problem was my inability to be honest with H; she got me to bring him in and he came a few times til they told him they needed to see HIM and he blew up and stormed out. Never went back and won't discuss it. Because I don't make him.

Anyway, by the time DD19 was about 10 (married 20 years), I simply hated him. I honestly wished he would die. He was the cause of all my problems, right? I started making plans to leave him as soon as DD19 graduated. But then we started getting into money trouble; at this point I can't AFFORD to leave, which is the main reason I'm still here.

But I also found marriagebuilders and they pushed me to start looking at myself, instead of blaming everything on him. And I slowly started realizing that it isn't HIS fault that he has such control over me. I LET HIM.

It is up to ME to set boundaries, to walk away when he yells, to tell him the truth that I don't want to be married, to speak up when he expects me to do everything and takes me for granted. 

That's MY job. Not his. He's not truly abusive, not as bad as your H, and your H isn't as bad as many I've seen. They just push, and we allow, and they push some more, and we allow more...until WE no longer have any voice. We are invisible.

Because WE ALLOW IT.

Therapy? It's a LONG process. Yes, they can give you steps to take, to empower you or make physical changes. But they can't do your thinking for you. And your thinking - changing it - will take years, in your situation. And it only works if YOU do 95% of the work; the therapist can only share their knowledge with you. YOU have to take it home and consciously make positive changes in your life. The kind we are pushing you to do, like leave him.

So...today? I like him better. Once I started fixing MY 50% of our marriage, he responded and he's not such an ogre any more. But I don't really love him. He hasn't earned it. Not in a long time. I still wish he would never come home when he's gone on a business trip. I don't know if it will ever improve beyond that point. Most likely not, unless I get more courage and DEMAND that he start going to therapy to get past all his considerable baggage. And like I said, I can't afford to leave yet. 

So...I'm paying down our bills (I took over his bills so I could do so), I'm selling stuff in the house and work side jobs to help toward that, I'm trying to help him find a better job, and I'm trying - TRYING - to keep up with my goal to be honest with him from now on. But he can't handle honesty, not if it looks badly on him. So I pick my battles. Until I can leave.

Once I leave, I welcome him deciding to finally work on himself. If he were to do that, I wouldn't mind getting back together. I have no desire to find any other guy; personally, I'd rather be alone the rest of my life. But if he DID get help and get rid of his demons - which he will NEVER do unless I leave - sure, I'll look at it again.

As for you, staying together for what FAMILY or SOCIETY says is the ABSOLUTE WORST thing you can do. You know your misery. Do you want YOUR daughters to live their adult lives in misery like you, just to make SOCIETY happy? 

That makes no sense.

You have to be happy and alive, to be a good mother. The worst thing I've done, I feel the most guilty about, is spending the last 10 years my DD19 was at home in a fog of depression, hatred, and apathy. I KICK myself for all the things I could have been doing for her and with her, if I had been on my own and finally happy.

It's the worst thing I could have done to her, short of leaving her with her dad. And I did it.

Please don't do that to your children.


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## LVS

turnera Your story touched my heart and touched my pain i wish you to feel relieved and find a better solution for your life because you deserve it

So much similarity between our experiences even though i was fighting all the time to get my respect and my kids respect but never won because i was not fighting the right way my oldest son left home at 18 when he should be between his loving and understanding parents but his loving dad pushed him out and blamed me for that and the same loving dad pushed his daughter out when she suppose to live with her supporting family and he blamed me for that too and this loving dad is making his second daughter life hell she is waiting to be 18 to leave and his 12 years old son is handling his dad anger and scared doesn't want his dad to leave or for his parents to be divorce and also my H is blaming me for everything
It is true their dad was giving them all the affection and all the food and clothes they need but his affection was kind of babying them to stay dependent on him i helped them in some way but they still need some help to remove the roots of abuse inside them he was caring for me but his care was like if i am his daughter not his wife plus this love and care was a side from the cycle of abuse heh 
I wanted to wait until my little son turns 18 but things in our life got worsen 

Now I took my time to revalue everything i read all your threads many times and here i am after a lot of thinking

what happened after giving him another chance, he is appearing changing but till when???!!!!! I don't know
and I don't know how i am doing all this work spending all my free time searching for information about marriage and relationship and everything related to his problems; getting books reading and reading and reading until my eyes hurt and my body is sore 
and him what is he doing nothing nothing nothing and nothing just talking to me and the kids in a calmer way and bringing me food 
DO I NEED FOOD TO KEEP MY MARRIAGE???? 

I am so tired 
I can't do anything anymore 
the only thought in my mind is refusing him and everything about him i got the book Why does he do that i couldn't open it to read even a page of it why should i do all that while he does nothing
I don't want him in my life i don't hate him i forgive him especially now i understand the latent reasons behind all these years of abuse and why he did that to me but i can't forget anything not only the things that hurt me but also the things that hurt my kids and what hurt me more each time i see him talking nicely the nicest he becomes the sharper my pain is for all these years of hurt even if he changed now i don't think i will be able to have him back into my life 
maybe he would be wonderful husband to another wife in the future but not to me
I am tired from stressing my life
my stomach started hurting since i gave him this chance i know now that i had to be stronger and file for divorce 
I know now you were right
he is now doing things just to win me back because he doesn't want to lose me (but he lost me) i am sure and as both of you told me he won't change an illness of years need years of professional help not to heal from it but to be able to control it

if i keep going like that i know i am going into depression which i don't want
that's why between me and myself i decided it is over and i know it's a matter of time just to find my way out or maybe he will do something to push me out 
I am done 
One more thing uptown you said if i want to keep my marriage i need to leave and move out so he might start going therapist even turnera you said the same but for me it won't work this way because i don't move out if i am not ready but when i am ready it means it's over i would never walk back that's me 
i know myself i hold on all these years because i know it's hard to say it's over but when i become able to say it that means it's over no way back


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## turnera

If you're living in separate rooms and you're standing up for yourself, and learning very strong boundaries, it IS possible for you to remain married. But YOU would need professional help to learn how to start loving yourself more and to be able to say NO to him when he acts like an ass.


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## Uptown

> One more thing uptown -- you said if i want to keep my marriage i need to leave and move out so he might start going therapist .... but for me it won't work this way because i don't move out if i am not ready but when i am ready it means it's over i would never walk back


If your H has BPD as you suspect, the sad reality is that it is highly unlikely he will seek therapy, regardless of whether you stay or leave. The vast majority of people suffering from BPD and other PDs are ego syntonic. That means that, although they are unhappy and often depressed, they do not believe their own behavior is the source of the problem. Instead, they believe others are at fault. 

Stated differently, they make the choice every day to keep thinking of themselves as victims instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. This is why your H has a strong need for you to always be wrong and the source of his grief.

That said, his best chance of making the decision to seek therapy will occur when you leave him because you will not be around to be his soothing object. So, yes, your leaving him -- bring an end to the toxic relationship -- likely is in his best interests. 

This is no guarantee, however, that he will choose to do therapy. On the contrary, although the odds are improved in his favor by the break up, it still is unlikely he will choose to stop playing the victim. It is the only identity he knows. He likely will be too scared to give it up in order to learn to control his emotions. He likely will want to hold onto that thread of an identity because, as I discussed earlier, BPD sufferers have a very fragile unstable sense of who they are. 

I am so sorry to be the one to say that. It is heart breaking, I know. I still am very much in love with my exW, who remains as sick as she ever was. My leaving her was not sufficient reason for her to fix herself. But it was her best chance for doing so.


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## LVS

I did post a thread in leaving/Disengaging Board at BPD family site
i copied some of my last post and updated if you can take a look at it is (WHEN ENOUGH IS ENOUGH)



Uptown said:


> -- by helping your intuition catch up with what you already know should be done. Toward that end, I have been chipping away at the three overpowering feelings that keep caregivers like us mired in toxic relationships: confusion, sense of obligation, and guilt.


The inner child grew up and
it is the result of me thinking and rethinking after rereading all your posts on my thread and some of your posts to the others and after i revalued my situation
both of you helped me a lot to see clearly
i still need your support and i appreciate all your effort



turnera said:


> Well...
> .As for you, staying together for what FAMILY or SOCIETY says is the ABSOLUTE WORST thing you can do. You know your misery. Do you want YOUR daughters to live their adult lives in misery like you, just to make SOCIETY happy?
> 
> That makes no sense...





turnera said:


> If you're living in separate rooms and you're standing up for yourself, and learning very strong boundaries, it IS possible for you to remain married. But YOU would need professional help to learn how to start loving yourself more and to be able to say NO to him when he acts like an ass.


turnera i know he is in the other room and we are separated but now in my heart i know i am leaving
how when it won't matter i don't want to keep my marriage anymore
and i feel good about that God knows my kids know and my parent also know about my suffering even my brother, the monk, who is coming from Canada to visit us next week he knows
and about people who doesn't know i won't care anymore the last few days i saw myself going into depression and dying 
This is what is going to happen to me if i stay people society or anybody else won't be able to help me when i won't be able to help myself




Uptown said:


> No, not if YOU are the one who changes. Then it could happen tomorrow. When you are ready to build strong personal boundaries and ENFORCE them, I suggest that you re-read all of Turnera's posts. She urges you to go to a safe place and gives you specific advice for leaving and for leaving very quickly.


It's a matter of time to let him know about my decision it could take days weeks or months but as soon as i am ready for it
i hope by than he will seek therapist to help him for his future relationships



Uptown said:


> ....As to your emotional health, improving it means that you build stronger personal boundaries and learn that being needed by your H (to serve as his soothing object and emotional dumping ground) is NOT the same thing as being loved for the woman you are......


As you said i know i am willing to help him as much as i can but not as his wife anymore i will set boundaries but setting boundaries is to gain my rights as a human being but it doesn't mean i gain a husband 
who needs decades to learn how to fill my needs



Uptown said:


> I am so sorry to be the one to say that. It is heart breaking, I know. I still am very much in love with my exW, who remains as sick as she ever was. My leaving her was not sufficient reason for her to fix herself. But it was her best chance for doing so.


please don't be sorry you are right and this is the truth
and you can't picture when i had this decision how much i felt relieved i know how hard it is going to be 
As i said in my post when enough is enough:
SOMETIMES we find ourself in front of a hard decision where we may chose to lose a part of our body to save the rest of it. A lot of pain to lose this part, even if it was infected, but at the end we know that we chose the right and we would end up to be happy to save our life.
(also in some cases it could be giving life to someone else like when offering a kidney).

Please advice me what do you think i feel i am right and it's not only because you said so but also for my well being for my kids well fare and for him maybe he will be able to seek help I pray for him and i feel sorry for me and my kids for all what we went through 
now i need to see therapist for me and my kids if possible and i will start back looking to find one ASAP
It's not the end yet but it's a giant step


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## turnera

I think EVERY person on earth deserves to be able to wake up each morning and be HAPPY they are alive and EAGER to face that day.

You deserve that. And your kids NEED you to have it, so you can be a better mother to them, grown or not. 

You won't have it with him.

Give your youngest son the best gift of all - freedom from the abuse for the rest of his childhood so he can develop a better life for himself and not continue his father's trends.


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## LVS

I still have one fear
i know that getting my boundaries is a right for me and there is a difference between getting them and being loved for who i am i am scared to fall back into the same mistake i know myself i am so nice to people and as i am a new in setting boundaries do you know any book or article that could be a guide for me


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## turnera

Start with The Dance of Anger. It's a short book, easy to read, and it's just full of ways for you to say "I love you but I won't do this for you any more." It's not just for your husband - it also talks about brothers and sisters, parents, friends, neighbors...

basically it's a little bible on _how to say no._

I just had a long talk with my daughter today about this. She has had SO much rejection in her life (long story) that she has been molded into this 19 year old girl who is desperate to get and keep friends, let alone boyfriends, that she admitted to me today that she molds herself to whomever she's with, to keep them happy. 

They may stay friends with her, but is she happy? Not really, because she is not herself. She said she had an epiphany today in the shower - that she has been molding herself to everyone, just to keep people wanting to be around her. So I tried to get her to feel brave in this decision to just be herself, say no when she wants to, follow her feelings, and just accept whatever happens. 

I also encouraged her to start seeing her psychologist more regularly, so the doctor can help her on this path.

You would benefit from the same strategy, I think.


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## LVS

i was going to ask you about it if it will help me or it is for who has a very low self esteem because i read your post on someone else thread but now i know more about it i will get it 
and it might help my 17 and 12 years old kids because they are kind of people pleaser

Thanks


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## turnera

Oh definitely. I wish I had read it when I was 12 and my dad left. It would have changed my whole life.


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## LVS

mine too lol


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## ADM

I read you are still strugling with all the process. I feel your pain and difficulties you have to go through. I guess your H has got used to you being so "assertive" and his has got always his way through...this change cetainly has put him through lots of difficulties. 
I hope you feel better now and that it will get even better tomorrow.


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## LVS

Setting boundaries is going well with me

He was the only one who can access the phone account online and check everyone phone calls and messages
Yesterday i asked him to give me the password to access my account he said why i said why not he said i can open it and you see your account i said no i need to access my account any time i want 
I got what i wanted 
He is doing well with me and the kids

UPTOWN you said he might be good for a while maybe weeks and my experience say the same 
But this is the first time i am standing for my rights i am confused 

Today he asked me to go out together to any place i want
I will benefit from this time to talk about boundaries and saying things by their names

especially after what i did today
i use to pay each month 400$ half the rental 
this month i had to fix my car in his brothers garage so he paid the bill for me and he said he doesn't want the money back
today i told him i am going to pay you 250$ what i owe you
but i will pay 200$ for the rental lol
for you it is the same for him he was laughing and said it is the same but for me it is saying no lol
plus one day he might say i paid your garage bill or something like that
those seems small things but if i let go small things i will for sure go back and let go important things 

Please any advice for today's outing or any advice


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## turnera

My goal is to always speak the truth. Even if he doesn't want to hear it. Make a goal for yourself to always say the truth, what you feel, what you believe. No more changing yourself to protect yourself from his actions.


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## LVS

He is so nice now he is using my way to talk with the kids and it's the calm and reasoning way

i need to let him know that my boundaries are my rights but being together as married couples is totally different
as you advice me turnera i will be expressing my mind i am not fearing his anger anymore it's true i don't have a clear mind about what to say 
because i am still sometimes mixing between getting my rights and him being changing it's confusing me 
i am sure and i don't think he is changing i think he is controlling himself but not healing
yes like someone told me he is using band aid when he needs surgery
but still i feel confused sometimes but because i set red flags i am standing for them

if you have any thoughts to share please i need that and thanks

( write down what he must do in order for you to stay married and what are somewhat important, and what are not important. 
Share with him the list and see what lists he does have for you. From there see any compromises can be done. )
it is an advice they gave it to me at the BPD family 
is there any site where i can find a list to help me chose of it i feel i might miss something important 
and till now i am not sure i want to ask him or give him any list but i need to know it as well whether i used it with him or in the future with someone else
it's important for me to make a list and see what i had from it in my marriage and what was my mistakes and his mistakes


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## LVS

I don't know how much i can handle before i go into depression
i feel so guilty i feel i don't know what to do
i feel sooo sad 
i know i said the truth but i hate myself
it's not because of what he said it's because of what he felt when i saw him crying loudly like a child and hitting his head with his both hands

i was so honest with him but i really was calm i told him this is what i need you to change your anger that you have no control on it i told him you hit me and our daughter once (it was 2 months ago) who knows what you will do next it was not you it was your anger that you cannot control it 
even what you said to me last week it was because of your uncontrolled anger i can't help you with that you need professional help 

he saw me so mean and careless with no heart he accused me that i am seeing him drowning and i don't want to help him to survive

he said he is helping me soo much in house chores he is taking care of me and asking about my health to show me that he is changing and trying to be close to me

i said i appreciate all what you do to me like you appreciate what i do to but don't expect me to change my decision because of that those was not our problem he was yelling and raising his voice so i walked to my room and he kept yelling 

it is midnight i can't walk out so i stayed in my bedroom until he cooled down i asked him if we can have calm conversation
he said it depend of you if you triggered me

i told him it is only one thing it is in your hand to help our relationship he said how you want me to help it i said you know the answer he said for the last time i tell you if you don't help me nobody else can help i said i really can't help you i need help too you are drowning i was about to drown with you 

he said you are not a Christian remember what the bible said and if you are Christian you would drown with me to be together i said the bible didn't say to kill myself if you are killing yourself you don't want to help yourself i can't help you he said no i don't want to go to any psychologist and do what you want i am living tomorrow

this is how our conversation ended up and he told me let me know what you want i walked inside my room i am crying i don't know what to do now?
i remember you told me not to ask him about the psychologist if i am not ready yet to move out but i couldn't let him keep working at the wrong side and blaming me for not doing anything and expecting me to fix things

Today it was very easy to enjoy our outing and come back home as a happy couple again he was so nice 
yes i did enjoy the outing but didn't cross the red light that i set 
i didn't want to be weak and lose all what i have done till now because i know it won't help our marriage

please tell me something


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## Uptown

> i remember you told me not to ask him about the psychologist if i am not ready yet to move out but i couldn't let him keep working at the wrong side and blaming me for not doing anything and expecting me to fix things


What I said was that it is counterproductive to establish a boundary you are not prepared to enforce. That is, don't say you are going to move out if he doesn't start seeing a psychologist if you are not ready to follow through. This does not mean, however, that you cannot explain to him that he needs a psychologist (but don't tell him you believe he has BPD because he will not believe you and will project it back onto you).

As long as you are living with an untreated BPD who hit you and your daughter only two months ago, you are in great danger. You both are living with a person who has the emotional development of a 4 year old. But not just any 4 year old. Rather, one who has enormous uncontrolled rage inside that he has carried with him since childhood -- and one who has the full strength of an adult man -- and one who, within 15 seconds, can switch completely from adoring you to perceiving you to be the devil incarnate. Even if he does start seeing a psychologist tomorrow, it could be years -- if ever -- before he is safe to live with. IMO, you and your children are playing with fire.


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## turnera

Did I tell you the cycle of abuse? I thought I did. It goes something like this:
Anger
Blame
Yelling
Shock (that you stand up to him)
Begging
Pity Me
Logical
Guilt
Being nice (see how good I really am?)
Anger
Yelling

Abusers start in there somewhere, and, as you don't react the way you used to (giving in and shutting up and letting him do what he wants), he throws that one out and tries the next one. If that one doesn't work, he throws it out and tries the next one. You just described in one meeting with him, anger, yelling, being nice...see how it works? He is PLAYING you.



Le vieux sage said:


> I don't know how much i can handle before i go into depression
> i feel so guilty i feel i don't know what to do
> i feel sooo sad
> i know i said the truth but i hate myself


You are not being strong enough. Look at this like a college test. It is SO hard that you feel you can't possibly get through it; but you have to; so you do.



> it's not because of what he said it's because of what he felt when i saw him crying loudly like a child and hitting his head with his both hands


*Pity Me*
Abusers ALWAYS look like a horrible, beaten down victim to YOU just so that YOU feel guilty and GIVE IN. It's working, isn't it?



> i was so honest with him but i really was calm i told him this is what i need you to change your anger that you have no control on it i told him you hit me and our daughter once (it was 2 months ago) who knows what you will do next it was not you it was your anger that you cannot control it
> even what you said to me last week it was because of your uncontrolled anger i can't help you with that you need professional help


Exactly what you should say. And you should NEVER stay with someone who will hit you, and IMO, you should never give someone who will hit a child a second chance.



> he saw me so mean and careless with no heart he accused me that i am seeing him drowning and i don't want to help him to survive


*Guilt*
Abusers ALWAYS turn it back on YOU and say YOU are heartless, mean, cruel, because they know they can use your guilt against YOU.



> he said he is helping me soo much in house chores he is taking care of me and asking about my health to show me that he is changing and trying to be close to me


*Nice*
We told you he would try to be nice and then say 'look at me I'm a new person. But one month of nice does NOT change an abuser. It can't.



> i said i appreciate all what you do to me like you appreciate what i do to but don't expect me to change my decision because of that those was not our problem he was yelling and raising his voice so i walked to my room and he kept yelling


*Yelling*


> it is midnight i can't walk out so i stayed in my bedroom until he cooled down i asked him if we can have calm conversation
> he said it depend of you if you triggered me


*Blame*


> i told him it is only one thing it is in your hand to help our relationship he said how you want me to help it i said you know the answer he said for the last time i tell you if you don't help me nobody else can help i said i really can't help you i need help too you are drowning i was about to drown with you


*Guilt*


> he said you are not a Christian remember what the bible said and if you are Christian you would drown with me to be together i said the bible didn't say to kill myself if you are killing yourself you don't want to help yourself i can't help you


*Logic*


> Today it was very easy to enjoy our outing and come back home as a happy couple again he was so nice


*Nice*

See how it follows a pattern? He has 'tricks,' even if he doesn't know he's using them. It's just what they do. And it doesn't mean he's a bad person; it is simply how they learned to get what they want as a child, so they keep doing it.

But YOU are here learning. You are (hopefully) reading the books we suggested and the websites and learning about what you're dealing with, and finding TESTED solutions. You know what you were doing doesn't work. Listen to the experts and follow their lead (not us, lol, the ones in the books and websites). Whether you end up with him or not, your life will be better.


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## ADM

Ohhh, my dear, I see you are going through lots of trouble right now. It seems you have entered the drama triangle where at times he is playing the prosecutor, the rescuer and the victim. You need lots of courage to tell him through this circumstances that don't make it easy, that you are strong and decisive.

I read carefully what has been suggested to you and all your thoughts. Please be strong!!!


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## Uptown

> i told him you hit me and our daughter ... 2 months ago ... who knows what you will do next -- it was not you -- it was your anger


No, no, no. What you saw was not anger but, rather, an image of your husband that is no less accurate than the kind loving H you are seeing now. The mistake that nearly all partners of BPDers make is to think of the sweet side as the "real him" and the dark side as "not being himself." That is wrong. Both sides are equally valid and both contain false images. I will explain.

A BPDer has a fractured and fragile self image and usually cannot be in touch with all of his feelings at the same time. He therefore flips back and forth between loving and hating you. Hence, he is just as much "himself" when he is splitting you _black _as when splitting you _white_. In both instances, his perception of you is distorted by his illness. That is why BPD is called a "thought disorder."

When he is splitting you black and hating you, it is easy for you to see that he is projecting vile and negative qualities onto you that you do not posses. What is harder to see is that he is doing the same thing when splitting you white -- the only difference being that he projects _attractive_ qualities onto you that you do not posses, i.e., he idealizes you instead of demonizing you. Of course, this is perfectly normal behavior -- for a four year old. At that young age, a child will flip back and forth between adoring mother (when all needs are met) and hating mother (when the tinest thing is withheld). As I said earlier, your H has the emotional development of a four year old if he has a strong pattern of BPD traits.

So what happens, you ask, when he is mid-way between those two states and sees me for what I really am? First, that may be a rare occurrence -- not only because he does projection most of the time but also because you spend so little time being your true self. Instead, you spend all your days walking on eggshells so that he doesn't -- heaven forbid -- see the real you. Second, you know that, whenever you are acting yourself, he does not like what he sees and has a fit because he believes that your behavior is "triggering" his anger (except for those rare times when he is pulling you back into the toxic relationship by acting sweet and pitiful).

Significantly, regardless of whether he is being kind or hateful -- much of what you are seeing is acting which presents a false self. Remember, a BPDer does not like himself and thus is afraid rejection and abandonment will occur if folks see his true self. Moreover, he does not know who he is because his true self is buried so deep that neither you nor he has a clear idea of what it is like. 

What he does reveal -- and what you see -- are fragments of him contained in the false self he is pretending to be. My point, then, is that this false image is no less accurate (as a reflection of his true self) when he is being mean than when he is being kind. 

I mention all this so you will understand that your H probably has a distorted perception of you most of the time -- and that the "kind H" likely is not any more accurate a representation of him than the "mean H." I hope this is helpful, Le vieux.


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## LVS

Thank you uptown turnera and ADM for your supportive posts I am really in need for that
I don't see I can do so much things right now
trying to get second job to be able to save some money

Yes turnera i can see clearly now what is going on in his mind i read your letter and i am reading the book Why Does He Do That 
i can't believe what i am reading it is like saying my story
Thank you for your time to analyze what happened and clear it for me 


uptown everything you say make sense to me yes it is the other side of him
i've read all what you said many times trying to understand more
I don't know what to do he is seeing me getting my boundaries as a challenge and as putting obstacles to not fix our marriage

when i said when he is in rage it is not him i meant that back in time he use not to scream this much
but when you aid so i know that it is him 
it is only how much i try tobe me in our marriage what triggered him and because i was improving each year he was worsening more and more
wow now i can understand more why i use to thing that his nerves getting tired and with the years and age he can't handle anymore but no he can handle when he wants to 

I need to ask this question 
I can see that every BPDer is abusive but I don't know
is every abusive person is BPDer??? because everything they talked about in the book apply on my H too
How can i find out if he is not being diagnosed 

Well to update you with my news
We didn't see each other to much those couple days I go to work than I come back to go into my room 
yesterday my daughter called me to my work to tell me they had a fight it is about her boyfriend my husband didn't want him for her and wants her to leave him and he was yelling and screaming at her but she was talking in calm voice and saying what she needs to say
she said and he kept yelling and rising his voice calling her names he says that he speaks in a logic way but he has no logic at all


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## LVS

He walked outside her room so she locked her door and called me I told her that I am proud of her for expressing her mind but next time when he can't control the way he talks to you just walk away don't try to reason with him (it's your advice that I started doing it but she was doing like I use to do lol) and she felt relieved when I told her that he can't deport you without my signature (lol that's what the attorney told me I felt proud of myself for knowing this info before I needed it)
after about half an hour he came back knocked the door when she opened he apologized to her saying that she will stay his daughter no matter what and he would never leave her.....
he hugged her and say forget ¾ of what I said she hugged him and that's it

I am just waiting next week my brother is coming from Canada to spend a week in our house after he leaves I will figure out what to do 
The most thing I am willing to tell my H is not to talk with our kids about anything until he becomes able to control the way he is talking to them 
but I don't know if I say it now or maybe during the presence of my brother or after he leaves back
What do you think???


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## LVS

I had a problem posting on my thread all the day i don't know why 
than i divided my text and it worked
Thank you for your help and support


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## LVS

Another fight with our daughter
i came back from a long day at work i was so tired i went to bed by 11 pm
i fell asleep but after few minutes i woke up on his voice arguing with her 
He started by asking her what dress she is going to wear for the prom
He said don't wear a short one she said it is not long but it is not too short and it is too late i can't change now(she can't tell him that her boyfriend has already buy his tuxedos matching with her dress color)and so he started arguing with her
than he said you are not going to the prom she said no you can't stop me from going he started yelling at her she left the area to go to the bedroom he called her to come back she was in the hall way he walked in rage stood up in front of her and started cursing her and calling her names and said don't challenge me i will kill you and he said if you want to go it's over my body (this time i stepped outside the room and stood between them) i asked her to go to her room and i told him to cool down and discuss this subject later
He moved me from his way and walked to her room and told me don't get between me and my daughter mind your business
and he was back yelling at her and raging and warning her again that over his body and she won't go to the prome and he is going to high school to talk to them to not allow her to go
i asked him to go outside the room because this is not a way to talk to her he said this is what you do always against me not even one time in our life you were with me

and he was raging yelling and screaming at me "move from my face move from my face move from my face..." his voice was like warning me he seems holding himself from pushing me or hitting me

i told him it's enough you talk to me like that don't talk to her while in rage i asked him again to leave the room he was hitting the floor with his foot and he screamed i am not leaving the room and you can't stop me and this is my house leave me alone 
i said yes i am going to leave you alone i will..
and i sat in my bed he continued screaming for couple minutes and told her is this what you want i am fighting with your mom because of you you are destroying our life i was telling her don't believe any word i told him don't tell her that it's because of us because of you than he started back blaming me than he said what can i expect from you you are like your father kill the victim and go to the funeral and he slammed the door

my daughter is shocked from the way he was treating her she was crying desperate 
i forced her to eat after i came back from work she was all the day without food i am so worried about her 
HOW CAN I HELP HER TO NOT HURT HERSELF
she is the third in the family after her brother and sister had problems with their father he was counting that she is the one who knows how to deal with him for a long time she was his favorite one and even many times he use to blame me because i don't know how to deal with him and that she was the only one who knows how.

What she was making him hear what he wants and she was living in different way she is close to me she use to tell me the truth but not to him to avoid being in conflict with him 
but she was bottling up everything and i was trying to let her change what she was doing because i know where it will lead her and was talking to him to know how to deal with her but no one listened to me

i think because soon she will turn 18 and she will be independent of him he is turning her life hell he is going to ruin a special occasion that every student wait for it and plan for it the whole year why?because she will be with her boyfriend and he refused him for one reason he gave to her that he is from different race
I don't know if he is the right one for her till now i don't see that and not because of his color
we can't force her to leave him
but this way is making her more stubborn on wanting only him i am scared she might hurt herself or even take a decision could ruin her life
My H is ruining everybody's life

he is going to ruin this coming week my brother visiting i don't know if me or my brother will enjoy it 

he had ruined many special occasions in my life.............

(One more thing after my H slammed the door my son came to me hugged me and said you should not say what you said and to his sister you should not answer him
i asked him why he said because now he is saying that because he is mad i know my sister will go to the prom he always do that with me he screams and yells and says all kind if words and after that he do what i asked him
so why you answered him you should be quiet and not say anything
i asked him are you giving him right to be in rage he said no i said i explained little bit to him that what's happening is not ok
and if one day he treats his wife this way is not ok and if a man treats my daughter this way is not ok too..)

WHAT TO DO????
my head is boiling with all kind of thoughts
what is the RIGHT to be done?
and what CAN I DO?


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## ADM

Have you talked to him in a decisive way? Have you made it clear that is not the way to talk to teenagers the way he does. He is not doing more than trying to control even the size of the dress. How does he think he is contributing in the creation of his daughter's world. How can a man deal with the length of a dress... a father? Please hold on to your daughter and give her much love and understanding. Please don't treat her as sick, but give her strength by being strong and clear. with him.

Lots of courage to you!!!


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## LVS

Thank you ADM for your quick reply
About my daughter she is strong sooooo much better than when i was in her age and me by ber side will get her over any hard situation (i hope that)
i don't treat her as sick i value everything she does and i encourage her to be happy no matter what i know the life i went through i know the days i was desperate and i still remember the days i din't eat those was before i lost hope of changing him or in other word it was before i gained hope that i can do something for me and my kids
ADM you really can't understand how he is 
what does it matter if i told him even i did 
it's our life story my other kids left home because of him
i don't know what you mean with decisive way if you mean leave him if he keeps talking like that with her
i was going to tell him that but not while he is in rage only when i can talk to him while my kids are not around it's Mon. while they are at school
i was hopping to let the period of my brother visit goes peacefully i don't know if he will allow me that

I am still trying to pressure him to see psychologist without deciding to leave
because if i leave i won't come back
and i am still afraid of this decision worried from the unknown 
i know he is a really stubborn he won't admit me winning a war
even we are both in some way looser
but i will win myself and my kids 
for him i will be the one who broke his stubborn head and destroyed totally his life
2 possibilities to revenge or he will brake down till death like that everyone we know will treat me as criminal
or he will becomes more angry and this is what i think more and he may hurt me or any significant person in my life
or even he might live both points 
and thinking about any point scares me


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## Uptown

> I can see that every BPDer is abusive but I don't know is every abusive person is BPDer???


No, not every abusive person has BPD because there are other PDs that can cause it too -- but the people with those disorders generally do not exhibit a truly caring side, as you H occassionally shows -- like when he hugged your daughter and told her that he had been 3/4 wrong and was sorry.

Nearly all the respondents to you thread are so fearful for your safety, and for your daughter's safety, that they encourage you to leave now and to worry about what may be causing his rage later. That is, they encourage you to act and stop wasting time trying to figure it out. I share that sentiment too.

Yet, because I am codependent like you, I have felt that your ability to take such action is greatly impeded by the guilt and sense of obligation that we codependents are burdened with. It is for that reason that I have encouraged you to read about BPD. I know that, when I was in a similar situation, knowing about BPD was enormously liberating because it helped me reduce my guilt and sense of obligation.

Your guilt and feelings of obligation are nowhere more apparent than in your repeated statement that you are not yet ready to leave because "it will be final and you won't be coming back." You are repeatedly saying, in effect, that you are still unwilling to give up for good on your husband, nevermind that you know you cannot fix him and that you and your daughter are suffering by holding on. 

And, of course, you have good reason to fear that he may harm you after you leave. That is a real risk -- and one that you should be discussing with the folks at that other message board on "Separating from a BPDer." But the risk likely is greater still while you are remaining there in the same home with your H. I nonetheless remain confident that the lag between your knowledge and intuition (i.e., between your adult and child) is closing every day.


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## ADM

I see very clearly your situation and I don't know how you can bear with it every day. I understand you're now under more pressure because of your brother coming. You know how it is in those cases, if it has to be like this every day, than prepare a back up plan so you will know in advance what you need to do in case the situation degenerates.
I cannot tell you very much since you have none to protect you from the situation. You are very exposed to the risk and all alone to be able to protect anyone that needs to be protected by him and you are in charge of. I believe your shoulders are full of wight right now. I encourage you to find the right organisms and claim your situation. In Europe there exist those where you can find protection and advise for women at your situation. You have legal protection as soon as you claim some. 
As for your children, you need to make them feel safe and do the impossible to bring them far from that risk exposure. 
Have you done any of those? I would also ask you whether he has someone he fears a lot or takes his word fro granted...may be that someone you can use for this occasion. I don't know very much though I am trying to be supportive. I am not as tolerant as you and if I feel at risk I cannot make compromises, either I run away to a safer place or I prevent it from happening by being ready with real action plans to take in case it comes. I understand that you are not ready to cross that line though for all the reasons I understand. 
I am really praying for you to have better days.


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## LVS

Before telling you about our today's conversation I would like to reply to your post

UPTOWN, I know everybody is giving me the right advice to leave. Yesterday I saw all the hatred in his eyes he almost pushed me and hit me if I didn't move from his face. I started to fear him.

I agree with you about the feeling of guilt even in your life with your wife you didn't leave her and for 15 years you spent a fortune to help her and she is the one who abandoned you and as I am sure that you wouldn't be able to leave her. You could keep trying with her and trying maybe for another 15 years to not feel guilty that you didn't take the right decision when leaving her and this is what I was living till yesterday even my inner child doesn't want to believe that the person with who I spent 28 years can at any time hurt me or his own kids. my mind says he can, he will, go, save your life and your kids but than I doubted my mind and say is it the right decision? maybe there is a way to help him and still I didn't know it and I am just a failure maybe because I don't feel I love him anymore that's why I am not able to find a way this is the war that I was living inside my head everyday. I am so tired.

I came back to tell you wow 
thank you uptown it was like removing the fog covering my way
i just finished reading SURVIViNG A BREAK UP WITH SOMEONE SUFFERING WITH BPD
Really wow i am impressed how about the facts that i read
i am having all kind of emotions
1 is wow 2 happy to know 3 angry for the wasted life of self blame and feeling of guilt 4 fear of what will happen next 5 sad for not being able to do anything ......
I am living everything they said and the feelings of doubt if i am doing the right things and if i am a BPDer too
I feel isolated i feel not having energy to make new friends and not contacting the old ones, i feel i don't want to go anywhere and i feel depressed even i dropped my class because off the stress and anxiety i am living
all i do in my day off reading and being here with you waiting a reply or helping other people posting here.

One more time thank you my eyes now are widely opened


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## LVS

ADM i appreciate your concerns as well as uptown and turnera concerns I am alone yes but i won't keep this situation for long time 
In USA we have everything we need but i am trying to not earn an enemy because if i claim i need to make police report and this will hurt him my kids and his family
i feel bad with myself to do something to hurt him especially i am still not believing he might hurt anybody i feel he is saying that to make me fear him but not in a way to be terrified but i open my eyes more for every change in his behavior and I hope my brother can help to end everything in a friendly way


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## LVS

Today I asked him if we can talk he said I am waiting for you ok tell me first what you want I said if you can't talk in better way to the kids don't talk to them 
You talk to me in this way and I can defend myself but I don't accept you to talk the same way with them 
He said I am going to release you
Than he started saying I got bottled up of you and your way to treat me, you are ungrateful for all what I did to you even the day I took you out to improve our relationship you gave me the worst shock in my life you couldn't wait until we come back home to talk and you ruined our outing and after what happened yesterday and what you did when I was dealing with your daughter instead of supporting me you stepped against me and this is how you did all your life so this was the breaking point I decided to leave home to avoid making a crime by killing you and your daughter and go to jail and die there
he said I am not here in this country to go to jail that's why I decided to leave I was hoping to see your brother and welcome him but now I won't
maybe when your brother comes and you talk to him maybe he will teach you how wrong you are
and all the things that you are reading that put you away from me are written by people who are against Jesus and Christianity instead you should read about our church and her opinion about marriage and family and how wrong you are doing by destroying your family
I said I am reading everybody's opinion and our church doesn't want one to treat his wife and kids the way you do. Are you reading about your role with your wife in the Bible? ( always when he has nothing to say he has a perfect way to change the subject many times without even me noticing that he did)
than he said I am going to call now my family to tell them my decision(till now he didn't call anybody)
shame on you you destroyed my life and you never took care of your kids
you stay all the time in your room and leave your son to me I take care of him all the time

I am going to leave you but you need to know that your daughter's future will be destroyed because of you because when I leave her for couple months with you (when they had fight and he hit both of us and he stopped talking to her for 2 months) you didn't take care of her and see how you harmed her (he means that she got attached to her boyfriend and if he was taking care of her she wouldn't do that)he was talking and talking not allowing me to say anything and also he said

When the school year ended you are in front of two choices either go back to our country or see if your brother can take you to Canada. Here I interrupted him and I said 3 choices the 3rd to stay here because I am staying in USA my kids future is here so I won't leave 
he said no it's not an option for you because you came under my name I told him I have green card you can't take it from me (he was trying to terrify me with this threaten but thank God and my effort I've already seen the immigration lawyer and I know my H can't do anything)
but he said yes I can. I already asked a lawyer and I can stop your papers and you can't take the citizenship I said I don't care I keep my green card I don't want citizenship( I am not sure if he can stop the citizenship papers but as I remember the lawyer said he can't) when he saw me not fearing his threaten he changed the subject
He said shame on you when people know how I was and how I became they will spit on you you are an evil disguised in an angel clothes 
what you did to me is horrible but no wonder why it's because you are like your father
(all I was doing was listening and sometimes smiling at the way he is turning the facts to defend himself it's like seeing in front of my eyes what I am reading in the books) 
Also he said even when all my family was saying things against you my brother who was always defending you now he changed his mind after what he saw you doing
Here I asked him what he saw? When he saw me? He said he knows everything
I said I don't care what other people say because they are not living with us. One person and only one can change my mind if a psychologist tells me that I am wrong I would be your servant for the rest of my life.
He said nobody not even God Himself can change me it's only you and he continued saying I know you were planning for that and now I am going to give you what you want I said what I want I can do it by myself and if I want to leave I can leave so don't turn it on me. 
He said that tomorrow he is going to pack and he will be giving me 500$ per month this is what he has to give me by law I can't make him give me more 
( I didn't argue with him about this subject to gather more information and to see he won't change his mind )
That's what happened I hope he won't change his mind about leaving. But as I expect he will.

Sorry for the long post


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## Uptown

Le vieux, you should be so lucky for him to leave tomorrow. You are wise to be skeptical. I am hopeful, like you, that your brother will make the transition easier. Yet, because your brother does not understand your H's disorder like you do, he may still be of the mistaken opinion that you are obligated to let your H pull you down with him. If so, perhaps you can persuade your brother to do some reading.


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## LVS

Lol
He didn't leave 
He didn't even say a word he is calm like if yesterday didn't exist
i feel like a big rock on my chest
i need to talk and i don't want to talk to him
i don't know if i should talk or let it go for this week???

Thanks for your advice i know you are right about my brother 
and today i emailed him what i read yesterday about BPD and i told him to read it and we will discuss it when he will be here


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## turnera

Yeah, they are full of idle threats. Every single thing he said was an attempt to gain back the power you have removed from him.

If you have to, you can file divorce papers on him and have him removed from the house legally. 

I would seriously consider going to the police TODAY and filing a violence report on him NOW. That way, if anything happens in the future, they already have a record of you being afraid of him.

I am so glad you are continuing to read and arm yourself with knowledge. It truly is the best thing you can do. Now that you understand BPD and abuse, you can, as you said, RECOGNIZE his attempts to manipulate you and NOT let them affect you. Good job!

Did you ever go to United Way to see what they could do for you?

You also need to look up local women's shelters, just in case you have to leave in the middle of the night and have some place safe to go - best to know where they are in advance.

Also, you are ramping up the stakes now, so you can expect HIM to ramp up the tactics he uses. NOW is when you HAVE to have a packed bag always in your car, your keys always in your pocket, your purse in the car or by the door. THIS is the week he is likely to try something.

PLEASE BE SAFE! And make that police report!


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## LVS

Since my H believes that i am the reason of the unhappiness in this family so he might be expecting my brother (because he is a monk) to do something to save our marriage and show me how much i am wrong 
In some way he has reason to think like that because my father never supported me in my life he is like my husband always putting all the pressure on the woman role in the family
My brother is different he may try to bring us together because also it's hard to destroy a family and delete of his head my H presence in our life my family spent more good than bad time with him plus i was always putting him in a perfect image showing the good side of him and always when my dad criticizes him i use to defend him so they almost has a fake image about him but my brother won't blame me for any decision at least that's what he said to me 
so this week i don't feel my H might do anything during the presence of my brother the monk.
anyway it is additional stress over my head i miss my brother but i wish he is not coming at this time
when i asked him to not intervene to fix our marriage and all he can do is help us to leave as friends he answered me if i can't reunite you i won't separate it is not my role to separate couples
i don't know what this week is hiding but my brother comforted me by saying don't worry you won't go back to what you were living 
so lots of ???????????????????????????????


turnera i am not doing anything in my free time but reading i am reading at BPDfamily if i want to stay how can help him and i am trying to find if he is refusing therapy how i can help him

i know i am confusing myself 
but if i have to leave him i need to do that with no doubt that it was something i could do and i didn't try it
about the violence report i am scared to do it i feel like i am doing something horrible 

and about united way i called them they can assist me with the first rental payment and it is after i make the lease agreement and put the deposit and pay a partial payment from the first rental month than i can apply for assistance and not sure if i will be eligible for their assistance

You are right about the shelters always i think to find their location and i ignore it but i need to do that 

one thing he owns my car he registered it under his name i don't know if i can keep it

I took appointment with therapist from Kaiser Permanente on 26th May so i will be asking her about BPD i should have seen her long time ago but it is only few days ago i knew that in kaiser i get counseling and the fee that i have to pay is not much because i am insured so i can afford it at least now


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## LVS

If i make police report what will happened
I mean i don't know what is it about
and what the police will do after making a report


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## turnera

As far as I know, all that happens is that there is a 'file' created in your name that contains the information - that you were hit, that you are fearful that something may happen in the future.

Unless you just go forward and press charges against him - which is not what we are advising - they won't actually DO anything. They'll just make a report and keep it in their files. What that does is help build a case in the FUTURE, in case he does ever become violent - it will be easier for you to get protection from him, because he'll have a track record of you being afraid of him.

Anyone else know differently?


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## Uptown

That is my understanding too. I am concerned, however, that they might not enter it into the police record without notifying your H to get his side of the story. The risk, then, is enraging him at a time when you are still living with him. But Turnera knows much more about this than me. She may well be correct that the police will simply make a note of it and say nothing, given that you are not pressing charges.

I agree that it would be more difficult to get a restraining order without having something in the record earlier, as Turnera said. A restraining order offers some protection but, of course, it offers no protection whatsoever if a spouse gets so enraged that he wants to kill you and is irrational.

I am hopeful that someone will step forward on this site with more information. Meanwhile, Le vieux, I suggest you also raise this question on the other site at "Leaving a BPDer." I am sure there are folks there who have experience with the safest way to prepare for the day you may decide to leave.


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## turnera

Oh, I don't know anything about it, other than what I've read about. Just call the police department and ask them. Or ask your lawyer.


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## LVS

Thank you i will hold on on the information i got from this forum and from BPD family maybe i will need it later
At BPD family they gave me this link http://www.domesticviolence.org/personal-protection-orders/
What do you think
I don't know what's the difference between PPO and Police Report..

He didn't mention anything about leaving i knew he was going to change his mind
Anyway here what happened after my last post
Before my brother came i told my H that i need to switch closets between his and my daughter's one one bc he still have his clothes in my room
he said with displeasure ok
but when i started moving his clothes he said with resentment can't you wait until your brother come and leave. So you mean with that i am not going back to my room again?
I said if one day you are going to go back to your room it will be so easy to bring your clothes back. Anyway that's funny to talk about it and you were about to pack and leave 
He said well it's a respect to your brother 
i said my brother's presence should be a blessing for you and your family 
he said that's right and i said it's not only that you should show more gratefulness for all what i did to your family all my life 
he said that's true 

Well I am happy in vacation of abuse for a week LOL
If i am not distancing myself i could be living a new honeymoon
WOW how nice is my H
even my brother noticed that and told me laughing if you are not my sister and i know who you are i could be doubting every word you said how nice and caring and rational ... he is a great husband i should be grateful to have him in my life lol 
this flashing back my life with him if i don't know what i learned till now i could be doubting myself

So my Mr respecting husband is trying to make me feel like it's over and we are a happy couple again
but i am keeping neutral and keeping my boundaries

Any advice?????


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## turnera

Ignore him. Go sit down and reread Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, so you'll be able to recognize his attempts at manipulating you. And highlight the points and show those highlighted areas to your brother.

So did he move his clothes out? Did you?


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## LVS

Yes i did move his clothes bc and when i did i enjoyed the feeling that i had but i remembered what i know about BPD and the feeling of abandonment he might felt it so i needed to be more smart to not challenge his anger i don't want anybody to get hurt and i feel scared i can't trust him anymore so i told him it's better like that and easier for you and our daughter to get your clothes plus i needed to make room for my brother to put his clothes too so he said yes you are right
i know inside him he is not admitting it but what i said maybe made him feel more that it's not a plan to abandon him

Now he is helping me like the old days but without complaining about any pain or tiredness and not yelling or criticizing but after all what he did to help i only said thank you and i know he was expecting more
but no not this time he won't get me with his manipulative way

One thing is scaring me i can see him keeping things inside him and as i feel if he didn't see my brother meeting his expectations to fix things his hate and anger will exceed the limit and i feel the time is pressing i don't know what might happen the day my brother leave

2 days went and i couldn't have enough time alone with my brother 

i am thinking if my brother can tell him that one of us should leave the house
i need to tell him that my feelings are neutral right now i am not thinking right and that we are not good to one another we are hurting each other and each one of us is making the second unhappy so we need to be apart for a while we can still schedule time to see one another but we need to be in separate houses
i am still planning in my head and searching to find the safest plan to leave

Any suggesting?????!!!!
i will be posting at BPD family too until i find the best plan
i still have 4 days of peace than my brother will leave

about the book i am still reading it i didn't finish it yet bc i am reading a lot of articles

what made me more aware i should leave asap is the top on page 120
when a woman think,i'll leave when it get worse. But at that time it will be more complicated to leave someone who has become frightening

it's too late now i need to get some sleep
will keep you updated
Thanks


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## Uptown

Le vieux, I agree with you and Turnera that nothing has really changed. He is just manipulating you. The safest time to leave is when your brother is still there. I am concerned that, when your H realizes that his good-guy act has not worked, he will be explosive and your brother won't be around to protect you or be a witness.


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## turnera

Don't forget to educate your brother about BPD and abuse. A lot of people, it just never occurs to them that something like BPD could be guiding what your husband does. Your brother, givien his faith, may just think that if your husband WANTS to be good, he will. And so he may try to convince you to stay with your husband because of what your husband SAYS, not what he has been doing for the past years. He needs to understand it.


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## Uptown

turnera said:


> Don't forget to educate your brother about BPD and abuse. ... He needs to understand it.


Good point, Turnera.


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## LVS

I emailed my brother about BPD before he came i still didn't have a chance to talk to him alone 
I feel him supporting me but he still didn't say his word yet and i am afraid as turnera said even i told him about BPD but i think my brother like anybody else who doesn't know what we know they will be thinking that he can be good if i know how to deal with him and give him a chance
I can't blame them i spent my life with this false belief 
Now i don't care what anyone will think. I don't feel safe with him anymore
I am going to leave.

Folks at BPD Family did advice me to leave asap without worrying about what to tell my H
but this step scares me more

I was reading the article Leaving A Partner with Borderline Personality

Leaving A Partner with Borderline Personalty Disorder-Joe Carver, PhD

Under the point ending the relationship they said

(- Explain that you are emotionally numb, confused, and burned out. You can't feel anything for anybody and you want to end the relationship almost for his or her benefit. Remind them that they've probably noticed something is wrong and that you need time to sort out your feelings and fix whatever is wrong with you. As disgusting as it may seem, you may have to use a theme of "I'm not right for anyone at this point in my life." If "The Borderline" can blame the end on you, as they would if they ended the relationship anyway, they will depart faster)

What do you think i need your advice????


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## turnera

Oh, most definitely. 

The one time I was able to get my husband to counseling, the only way I could do it was to say that *I* was messed up and needed him there to help ME. So he thought he was being the good guy. (Until the counselor told him after 3 sessions that she needed to see him alone because of his own issues, and he stormed out.)

But with people like that you HAVE to make it look like you are not blaming him. That YOU have to do this for YOU, not BECAUSE of him.

Is it lying? Not entirely. 

But it's necessary.


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## Uptown

Le vieux, I agree with Turnera and the advice given to you on the other forum. That is the safest way. If your H has BPD as you suspect, he is incapable of trusting you or believing you -- in the event you would try to explain the truth to him about BPD. He would simply project it onto you. 

The other advice given at that forum usually is to leave without advance notice and, ideally, with some person there to accompany you. The reason they advise you to leave ASAP is because, like Turnera and me, they fear for your safety and that of your daughter.


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## ADM

LVS, I am so worried you are pulling a lot the rope..I understand you do it for your family and kids...but yet, is it worth taking over so much risk? I am really worried you are leaving with someone that will put you in more danger...the way he is behaving and the degree of his violence is simply escalating and you may not predict it. You cannot count on his heart...you may not leave things to happen, you probably should act....now.

Have the courage to prevent things from happening before it is too late.


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## LVS

Thank you for your help and support 
I need you more than any time else
I am in a very hard situation

My brother had a private conversation with my husband yesterday
He had also another one with my brother in law this night
After i had a time to talk to him today afternoon he told me he wants to make a meeting with me and my H and his brother
I said what's this for?
He said to mention the points that you and your H can fix or you cannot
I said no.no. no. If i want to meet with them it is to tell them my decision
i don't want to discuss any point
I don't trust my husband anymore i don't know when he could get mad and kill me or one of our kids every step i read about it at BPD family I went through it and lived it with him and as i see we are heading now i need to leave him asap
I am leaving in some peace because you are here but when you leave I and my kids will be in danger 
I am feeling unsafe and i can't trust staying in the same house with him and i can't help him because he doesn't want to help himself by going to a psychologist

All my memories in our life together are hurtful even the good moments in each one i had emotional injuries 
he is a very negative person who never knows how to enjoy anything and always looks to the empty part of a full cup
We have nothing to share nothing to do and he is not willing to do anything he wants me to do all the work and than blame me for every single matter and so on. The same story repeat itself each time

But i am not going to mention these things when my safety and my kids safety is shaken 

And I asked him what did my H told you did he put the blame on me (my brother is a monk and what they talked together is confidential)he said what do you think he told me
I said he probably blamed me for everything or maybe he said that he wants another chance to make it up for me and treat me in better way as i deserve he always told me that even before the day he wished me dead so what do you think??

My brother said he doesn't want me to feel forced to follow anyone opinion and when they will be all together I need to speak my mind and tell them everything i said now


What do you think?

Do you think it is good to mention in front of them that i need to see psychologist for the harm that affected me through all these years ????

Or this is something they could use it against me ?

Any other suggestion?????

(i am going to put this post at BPD family too i am worried about the coming days i don't know what's awaiting me and I need plenty of suggestions)

Thank you


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## Uptown

IMO, your obligation is not to explain things to your H's or brother's satisfaction but, rather, to protect your daughter. You will have all the time in the world to explain later -- not that it will ever convince your H.

After the police arrive and find you and your daughter dead, your H will still be crying and sincerely explaining how sorry he is. And your brother will still be trying to sort it all out in his head, being careful not to make any rash judgments about anyone.

You and your daughter are living with a man full of rage and anger who has little control over those emotions because he has the emotional development of a four-year old. You have known that intellectually for weeks. Now you know it intuitively, at a gut level. The lag between your child and adult has closed -- they now are in agreement. It is time to act and to do so quickly.

Protecting your child is paramont. Explaining it all to your brother is something you can do later. You will have your lifetime to do that. Your brother's great value to you is not his _understanding_ -- you already exceed him in that regard -- but, rather, his _presence as a witness_, which will discourage your H from harming you as you leave. Le vieux, please get out now with your daughter and don't go back.


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## Uptown

> Do you think it is good to mention in front of them that i need to see psychologist for the harm that affected me through all these years ????


You are responsible for your daughter's safety, not for giving explanations. The decision must be made by you, not a committee. Don't take a vote. And don't explain. Simply act.


> Or this is something they could use it against me ?


Getting out now makes this issue moot. Your brother won't want to use anything against you after you are out. Your H will hate you no matter what you do -- he is incapable of stopping the splitting in which you periodically become the devil.


> Any other suggestion?????


Get out. We can talk for weeks later.


> i am worried about the coming days


Yes, you should be concerned. Getting out reduces the danger but does not eliminate it. I am hopeful that the BPDfamily guys will provide useful information about working with police to reduce that danger.


> i don't know what's awaiting me


What awaits is a life full of uncertainty, risk, true love, happiness, loss, and hope -- like the rest of us already have. What you will NOT have -- in the very next room -- is an angry, raging, four-year-old child with the strength and cunning of a full-grown man.


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## Uptown

> I am worried about the coming days.


Much of your worry, Le vieux, may be due to an unnecessary fear of abandonment -- according to therapist Sandra Brown, the well-known author of _How to Spot a Dangerous Man_. She writes:
 
Women who are in relationships with pathologicals test very high in the trait of 'fantasy.' Fantasy is not just merely wishful thinking. Fantasy has other components in it that effects your here and now life.

 Fantasy is often associated with the future and in some ways the past. Here's how... women often stay in pathological relationships because they feel panic or fear of abandonment when she or the pathological tries to end the relationship. They end up recontacting or allowing recontact because of these feelings of fear/ panic/ abandonment.

 The past association with those feelings is that abandonment is an early childhood feeling. As adults, we don't technically feel 'abandoned.' That's because as mentally healthy adults, we can't be abandoned. So that feeling is an early childhood feeling usually associated with some time of adult or parental abandonment. It is an age-regression feeling -- something that pulls us back to our childhood or a very young emotional state.

 The feeling of 'ending' a mate relationship often subconsciously without our realizing it, sets off childhood feelings of abandonment.These are past associations and it taps into fantasy that it is happening all over again when it really isn't. The previous male in your life who did abandon a child is not the same thing as a pathological leaving your adult life.

 But inside, internally, the child feeling is so strong that it feels like a 'hole in the soul.' The fantasy of THIS being the same as THAT takes hold and your panic makes you go back or allow him back in.

 Fantasy is also future oriented. Fairy tales are fantasy are based on _"Once upon a time"_... and "_Happily ever after_"which is all the good stuff that 'might' happen in the future. Women stay in relationships with pathologicals based on a lot of 'fantasy future betting' -- that is:


_'he might stop being pathological, _
_' he might marry me,' _
_'he might stop cheating,' _
_'he might tell the truth.'_ 
Fantasy betting is a lot like gambling... betting on a future that is _not likely_ to happen with a pathological.

Why? Because pathology is the inability to change and sustain change, grow in any meaningful way and the inability to see how his behavior effects others.

But women also stay in pathological relationships based on 'projected fantasies' that is, she fantasizes he will be happy with the NEXT woman and she will get all his good traits and none of his bad. This too is fantasy... that his pathology somehow will not effect HER the way it effects you.

Here's some infoathology Effects EVERYONE the SAME!! (_Unless she's pathological as well -- then who cares if he goes on to have a relationship worthy of a Jerry Springer Show?)._


Women fantasize that this 'abandonment' feeling will effect them the way the childhood abandonment did (and it will not--just as an FYI for you).
Women fantasize that he will be different with them. If he is truly pathological he is hard-wired. This IS his DNA.
 Women fantasize that he will be happy in the future and she is missing out on something. If he is truly pathological, his patterns don't change.
Fantasy is not here and now. It's all in the head and all _'out there somewhere_' kind of thinking. Come back in your body and back into what's real. List the 5 most real points about him right here:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Now stand back, step out of the childhood feelings, and look at the list with adult eyes. You can't be abandoned as an adult because where ever you go, there you are and you are all you need as an adult. You don't have dependency needs as an adult like you did as a child.To be abandoned is to be dependent on the one who is abandoning. Adults are not dependent.

Your real life with all it's drama and pathological intrigue is going on right NOW while you are all hung up in your head in fantasy. You are MISSING your real life that is happening right now! Your life is drama, it's obsession and intrusive thoughts. 

You are ignoring your own health, your own self care and happiness and probably your children and friends. THAT'S your real life --- but your fantasy is telling you _'just a little longer and he'll get it and then I'll have the life I really want.'_

Did you get sucked back on to planet earth just then?? Did you feel the wind tunnel effect as you came back into the here and now? Just WHAT ARE you fantasizing about today?


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## LVS

Uptown i believe everything you are trying to do to convince me and to help me to see the truth and the reality
you understand if i still have times of doubting for all what i am doing and if i am feeling scared to be exaggerating my situation.

I know my situation is hard but there are so many things to take in consideration 
i have only one day to do everything

uptown please don't give up talking to me i understand your advice to leave and don't come back 
I wish i have only one place to live in i would do it without thinking twice but i still have my country and once i got there i will be exposed and vulnerable to his revenge with nothing to protect me 

I had a long conversation with my brother today and he told me that tomorrow at 11 am he scheduled the meeting with the 3 of us me my H and my brother in-law

my brother in law many times defended me against his brother but i know when things get this serious he would be by his brother side and in an arguing with my H he said that even his brother who were defending me turned to become in his side (i know my H is twisting all stories when telling them to his brother)

My brother said don't worry all i need you to do is to say what you already told me if you want to leave nobody will say no but when you express your mind in front of his brother he will know the things from your side too not only what your H told him and he might be supporting you and me too so don't worry
it's better than leaving without saying a word in that case everything will be against you even your H might then try to hurt you more

I showed my brother some of your replies i told him that i don't underestimate his power and wisdom but i don't want to discuss any matter with them when i don't feel safe all the other issues seem silly to talk about. Once i feel safe i can admit to talk about anything or give another try in only one condition if he starts seeing psychologist ( i know in my heart i won't come back but i also know he won't see therapist and even if he saw one he won't stay enough time to get improved)

I said there is a possibility that my H will suggest that he will leave the house and i stay with the kids. In this situation i will be changing the door lock so he won't be able to enter the house without my permission plus i will get a legal separation. My brother said sounds good.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?? Please tell me i am thinking right!!!!

I need your prayers and suggestions if there is something to mention tomorrow and i forgot it 
My brother suggested that i write on a piece of paper what i want to talk about to remember all the points and be more confident and he advice me to stay calm no matter what( i am a very calm person )but i am under stress all i need to have is clear mind and more confidence in myself 

I will keep checking your reply before the meeting time i am open to all suggestions or thoughts
now i started feeling this will be for my best i am working on myself to clarify my mind and relax


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## turnera

Write it down. 

Print out the material you've found on abuse - and the checklist of things abusers do - and also show on that list the number of things your H has done. So he and his brother can see it in black and white.

Write out a list of requirements you have to EVER go BACK to him - and make it clear you will not be with him for at least 2 more years - long enough for him to prove he's changed. He's unlikely to survive that length of time - he'll move on to some other woman he can control - but you'll have his brother and your brother as witnesses on what you require. And if your H agrees to do those things, you'll have witnesses that he DID agree to them. That gives you more power in court, if necessary. And he will KNOW you have witnesses. That's a powerful thing.


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## ADM

I would be very happy to hear you left with no harm...Uptown has awakened the fear in me you are far more exposed to danger than you believe.

Please be strong and good luck!


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## LVS

This is a great idea thank you turnera 
I was thinking how to start you gave me the right weapon i love it.

Thank you ADM for your concerns i need your prayer.


Signs of Abusive Fathers

This article is the right one to summarize my life
less words but has everything to not use so much papers 
i have so many articles and books but i picked this 
it's true it talks about signs of abusive father but it shows how he is abusing his wife and kids the same way. 
You just need to switch father with husband lol
i need to check only what he doesn't do which is alcohol and drugs but all the rest is in our life

Till now we didn't have the meeting
his mother went emergency to the hospital yesterday she is doing well today but they are with her so the meeting is gone
now i am going with my brother to have lunch together and he wants to talk to me so it is a good escape for my H because as i feel this meeting scares him 
let's see if they will try to do it before the departure of my brother we have only today

i will keep you updated


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## turnera

Print out the list and show it to your brother. Highlight the ones that apply to your H.


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## LVS

We had the meeting at 2 pm till 7 don't read it if you feel it long it is all b**l sh*t blablabla
I know I shouldn't fall into defending myself or justifying things but I don't know how things happened and I didn't expect my brother will say what he said 

My H refused the psychologist
My brother asked to see marriage counselor first he refused
than his brother convinced him and he agreed I spent years asking him for marriage counselor he never listened to me
i said ok I agree to see marriage counselor in one condition to not be at the same house with my H
than his brother jumped and said he can't go anywhere he doesn't have enough money to rent a house and you don't so this is not an option I said he told me he was leaving before my brother came my husband said I am not going anywhere I am staying home than my brother in law said you leave I said I will leave I will take my kids and leave.
He said you have no right to take you are guilty as much as he is guilty bc you work and you can't bring them from school (I was stupid to get into this conversation)
I said I can get a house close to school he said and what about your 12 year old son I said he can come back walking like so many kids he said he is 12 years old and his father decide for him
than I said why you are talking now are you his lawyer that's unfair my brother can't be in my side 
he said I am just telling you that you can't leave your wage is not enough and my brother's wage is not enough to help you
Than he suggested to stay together at the same house but not talking to one another until we start marriage counseling ( sounds good for me until I can plan something better)
me: How can I stay at the same house with him and I don't trust him and he threatened me and my daughter life
H: (with anger)now you see me criminal ? 
me: you told me you want to leave before you kill me and my daughter 
H: it was bc you triggered my anger 
than they said something to calm him down when I showed the papers about abuse my bother in law diminish them and ignored them and said those nonsense 
I talked about the way he hit his daughter it wasn't a normal person angry hitting his daughter he was like when you see in the movie ( here my brother interrupted me to say that's silly don't look too much to the movies and books they do brain wash) I said it's just to let you picture the way he hit her like
a criminal killing the victim with anger using a knife slashing her 5 repetitive times like that he was hitting his daughter when I separated them he hit me and when she came to defend me he slap her on her face and left the house this is more than an angry man this is a person who needs help before he commit a crime I can't offer this help than my brother said(I hated what my brother did)you don't mean him you mean the things that he does
Bro: Do you feel it's you when you rage (what a hell is this question
H: no is not me 

me: no it is him who can be nice or in rage
Bro:can you control your anger 
H: no 
Bro:that's why it's not him because we know him the good and nice person if it's him he plan for that and decide to do that (here my brother drove me crazy even I told him and I showed him about BPD and abuse and he still saying that ????? ) 
H: no of course not I never decide 
me: it is him can you tell me why he doesn't do that when he is in public can you tell me why he doesn't do that with other people who talk to him maybe so much worse than he see me do it's because he can control himself and he knows when he allows himself to become like that
that's why both the nice and the bad are one person than my brother in law was laughing in sarcastic way and shaking his had and my H was the angel who never did anything wrong and what happened he doesn't know how it happened 

Bro: you said you can't control yourself and you need someone to help you and my sister said she can't do anything anymore that's why you need someone else and that's why the counselor will be a great help for you. 
Here my H was so sweet (liar) and ready to do what ever to save our relationship
my brother asked him what does he find something in me still keeping him in this marriage
my H said he loves me and said I handled a lot and I have a good heart a heart of a child and I am beautiful inside and outside and I am very talented and very ambitious(here he dropped tears )he went to get napkins from the other room (all 
in law: (with tender voice)do you think this heartfelt person can become criminal it's unbelievable
me: yes you don't know him you never saw him in rage yes he can be both sides
my H came back than
my bro asked me the same question I said what's kept me for long time in this marriage was obligation religion culture family kids and nothing else
Bro:I can guaranty you that your life will be much better if both of you went to the counselor with the good intention to save your marriage

It wasn't what I wanted I know you are feeling angry at me for I weakened 
after they left I was so upset 
I hate my life I wish I disappear from earth
I wish him dead I have anger inside me I never had it before I feel hopelessness 
I want to scream I cried like I never did in my whole life
I feel so weak
I feel I want to give up everything
I don't have any desire to live
I feel alone
I feel despair 
I feel emptiness
I feel disappointment
It won't matter what my brother told me after the meeting
He could be right but I hate what happened
He said this is the right things for you this is a step getting a marriage counselor is going to be supportive for you and in case of abuse they could report I said how they will be supporting a dead person?
He said you have no other solution for now can you leave you couldn't finish what you started if I said something else I would be putting you in risky situation and I am living? 

Now you are supported of me and his brother and marriage counselor.

Now I don't know ?????????????????? what a marriage counselor can offer ????????????

I will wait and see this marriage counselor and next Monday I have appointment with a psychologist for the first time in my life so maybe this also will help me and give me some support (like that I have more people knowing about my situation )


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## turnera

Have you found the closest women's shelter yet?

Do you have a bag packed and in your car? Do you have your purse in your car? And your keys in your pocket?

lvs, you KNOW they are all three WRONG. YOU KNOW IT.

He has abused you for so long you no longer trust yourself. That's what happens to abuse victims. The abuser convinces her that she's crazy, wrong, stupid, worthless, causes him to be bad....if she would just be BETTER he wouldn't have to hurt her.

YOU KNOW THIS IS BS.

PLEASE go visit the shelter today. PLEASE.


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## Uptown

Le vieux, thanks for updating us. We have been advising you not to waste time trying to convince those three men. But you somehow felt obligated to make a good faith effort in case your brother would persuade your H to move out -- and, sadly, your brother dropped the ball and failed to deliver anything.

So, now that this effort is out of the way, please get back to preparing yourself to leave by visiting a crisis management counselor -- as Turnera has been suggesting for weeks. The issue remaining to be resolved is how to leave in a way that you can afford so as to avoid being forced by finances to return to your husband.

IMO, seeing the marriage counselor will be a total waste of time and money. Such counselors are trained to improve communication skills. They are not trained to treat a serious PD -- or even identify it -- and thus have a weak record in being able to recognize BPD when they see it. And, of course, your counselor likely will never see it because your H will be putting on his good-guy act while he is there.

In contrast, your appointment with the psychologist -- if he or she is a good one -- should be very productive. 

Meanwhile, please avoid arguments or discussions with your H that could trigger his anger and put you in danger. And try to not be discouraged by the inability of the three men to understand the problem. That outcome at the meeting reflects on their limitations, not yours. 

Finally, I am concerned that, when you showed your H some comments we made on this site, he may have gotten enough information off the pages to be able to log in here and read what you are planning. Are you sure there was no identifying information about this forum's name or its web address?


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## LVS

FOR YOU All the replies blessed my heart and healed my hurts and brought me up THANK YOU to all of you 
God blessed me with you when away from all my friends and have nobody around me, you are greatly supporting me. With the folks at BPD family
I know I can't be depressed and unhappy for a longtime so hopefully I am going to start back having life and making friends no matter what.

Concerning my inner situation I am like a baby when he started walking and proud he can overcome his fears and reach the places he dreamed. It's not long time when I started knowing myself. So I have confidence in myself and I know who I am and I am proud of myself for all what I am able to do when I needed too (most my fears was HIM) and that's how I was during the meeting yesterday I had clear mind and I pointed to everything and even when he was criticizing me I defended myself with a strong calm and confident voice.
I only had teary eyes when they ignored the papers and put down what I was saying about abuse and even didn't comment about the violence that happened against me and my daughter. I felt helpless and also when I couldn't get him to leave the house. 
I understand my brother's fears and situation and I know what he did is the best he can do but I needed to express my feelings the way I did thanks for understanding my situation.
Now about what happened It won't matter if I had one step back I am going to use it to make two steps forward. 

As for my situation at home. My H is very calm now I think he will remain calm for a while, he is trying to talk to me but I am avoiding that bc I know he is trying to play the nice guy who is changing and God opened his heart and mind and he is regretting what happened(i am just guessing lol)BUT I know as you said it won't matter the way I talk to him I will trigger his anger that's why I want to limit contact with him until I start counseling and therapy
The only contact he has at home is with our son bc he is back not talking to our daughter since 10 days and she is not talking to him too.
My brother and his brother asked him to not talk to me unless it's important until we attend the marriage counseling we will follow what they will say. And both of them they offer to pay for counseling his brother said it will be a ship price if it will help to bring you back together and if it didn't work I won't regret one day that I was able to do something and didn't do it
in my heart I know as you said it won't help him but maybe they will ask him to seek therapy and for the annulment in church I think it will help too that we tried it.

My decisions and view points; I am not trying to diminish the potential danger that my kids and me are exposed to by staying, but at the same time I don't want to exaggerate.
I was bitten for only one time during the 28 years of marriage he didn't hurt me physically not even emotionally for me he is neutral but I feel angry and hurt for what he did to my daughter and I know that was no right and I know as he did it once he could do it anytime 
But since the degree of violence still limited and all what he threaten me was words I think by limiting contact with him it will diminish the risk (for both of us me and my daughter) I don't mean it's not going to happen one day but I mean I don't feel I need to go and live in shelter with my kids the idea is to have a good and right plan I will contact crisis line and get all the information I need and I will see what the therapist will say 

What do you think about legal separation?
Does it help now or it's something to avoid until I am ready to leave?


(One more thing, I know when a man is addictive to drug and alcohol he puts the blame for the physical abuse on the substance In case of mental illness he used it as excuse for violence 
In my H case his only excuse is me triggering his anger. By limiting contact with him is there anything else or strong excuse he might take to be able to physically abuse me??? I know one thing he might use my son. Is there other possibility?)

By the way uptown I didn't show your comments to my H I showed them to my brother. I am a very cautious person and I don't open my personal links on his computer and if I have to do anything I delete history.
I do all my works on my notebook and it has a password. It's true it's connected to his computer and he can track everything but what helps me, he is not a computer expert.
And about the crisis counselor do I need to see him/her or I they work over the phone?

turnera I will call crisis hotline but today I was getting back the energy I've lost yesterday.
I didn't pack anything yet so many things are meaningful to me and so many things I can't leave I don't know where to start and my car is a van I use it in family outing so no place to hide things in it and I have no friends to put things in their houses but I will try to find.


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## turnera

Do you have money? Go rent a small storage unit. Take one thing there every day.

When I said have a bag packed, I just mean to have an emergency suitcase with clothes in it for 3 or 4 days for you and your kids, in case he DOES figure out you're serious and gets mad and tries to stop you. Right now, he doesn't really believe you are going to leave. He thinks he still will be able to coerce you, like he always has. Abusers nearly always have this view that they will always win; when you finally get through to him that you ARE leaving, he will be shocked, and he'll go through the whole range of abuse tactics, until he finds the one that works to keep you. That's why it's best to leave when he's not home.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> ...Right now, he doesn't really believe you are going to leave. He thinks he still will be able to coerce you, like he always has. Abusers nearly always have this view that they will always win; when you finally get through to him that you ARE leaving, he will be shocked, and he'll go through the whole range of abuse tactics, until he finds the one that works to keep you......


You are totally right turnera
Today he asked me to talk i was getting ready to go to work i said i don't have much time if you can say very quick what you have it's fine or you need to wait until tomorrow
he showed displeasure but he said: i had so many things to say but since you want me to finish quickly ok you have until tomorrow to decide what you want you want me to stay or to leave i need to know
i said i think you heard me saying that in the meeting
he said ok i know that's what you were planning for all the time and you don't love me anymore and you hate me right i didn't answer he said if i leave that means no marriage counseling or anything else and you need to know that you will be hurting the kids because i am not going to look after them in case i left and of course it will be the end for me so i don't know what could happen to me bc of your decision
anyway tomorrow be ready to discuss the important details of leaving 
i said ok and left to work!!!!


At work he called me his voice was so sweet and he seemed happy talking to me in lovely way
he said when do you have your therapy appointment? (i don't know if i mentioned it before but i told then in the meeting that i have appointment with therapist through our insurance company)
when he asked me i didn't give him an answer i said why?
he said bc i called them to ask them if you have appointment they said it's confidential so i asked them if they offer couples therapy they said yes so what do you think about it? instead of going alone we can go together?
(here i was confused what this BS?)i said that's fine take the appointment so he called them and took appointment this Monday at 5 pm 

I am going to my appointment on 26th May even if i have to go with him too anyway the first appointment together will be orientation so i will have my appointment with my therapist first.
but i can't understand 
how this happened?
why he changed his mind?
what happened inside his crazy mind why does he do that? lol
i am so confused!!!!!

Maybe his brother told him that or his lawyer and maybe his brother made him fear me going by myself to the therapist so he wants to make sure i go with him to witness everything i say

One other possibility you told me about it that only when he feels he is loosing me he seek therapist 
but i don't know why i don't think that it is about this last one. i think as you said turnera it's one of his tactics


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## LVS

Today too i am locking myself in my room he dropped our son at school and came back knocked on my door i didn't answer i don't feel i want to talk to him right now
i don't fear him but once he steps in the house my heart races i don't fear him hurting me i am strong enough to defend myself but i fear the situation may escalate before i am ready to move i don't want to take my kids to a shelter i don't want to hurt them more
tonight was my first nightmare i was happy that with all what i was living i was able to control my dreams even though i had a shallow sleep (i mean i don't have deep sleep and i have many dreams each night but i don't remember details) 
today my dreamed was about him being violent all the time and i was running away from him but he kept following me full of anger hatred and rage to hurt me and even my son my daughter in the dream called 911 but they never come i woke up so disturbed and tired hope it is only one night.
i will try to call crisis hotline today 
and i will ask about the storage unit 
i don't have a suitcase ready yet the way things are happening don't urge me to get it now i don't know if i am not aware enough of the danger maybe because i don't think he meant it but i don't feel the fears that you and uptown have and even everyone at BPD family have too 
am i undervaluing the danger i don't know he never tried to use violence in all his life he was away from any problem may involve violence 
i don't know sometimes i think maybe he is not BPD maybe he is an angry man whom i spoiled by becoming the enabler
but while reading the book "why does he do that" i need to highlight most of what i read
uptown turnera i am confused and scared to be judging him bad and to be the one who is driving him now to hurt me while he may not
you may see me stupid but i like to let you know how i feel and the war in my mind 
uptown do you think this is my inner child who refuses to see him this bad i don't know 
can you help me to see clearly 
because it's hard to see him as i see him now while reading the book i can't read more than 1 page at a time it's really hurting me to read my story and see the pain again and know that he never was caring for me i use to see him sacrificing his life for his family but now i see him in different perspective and i know it was all about him and his image i am lost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## turnera

Everything you are feeling is understandable. And know this: If he IS fixable, if he WILL do the work to get over the issues he has, he WILL do it - but he can do it from another home than yours.

You can still get back together, ok? 

Just make sure that it is LATER, after he has gone through intensive, long-term counseling. 

And yes, do you remember the cycles I told you about? An abuser has like this 'wheel' of tricks - things that have worked for him in the past. He tries one (blaming you) and you stand firm; he tries the next one (warning you he'll abandon you financially) and you still stand firm; so he tries the next one (being nice and sweet when he talks to you); and the next (giving in and signing up for counseling). He is trying each 'card in his deck' to see which one is the one that is going to make you cave in and take him back.

The danger, lvs, is when he realizes, once and for all, that you ARE serious. THAT is the point at which he may become violent. Why? Because he finally gets it, that you are taking away the life he had and enjoyed, that it is now in YOUR control, not HIS, and he can't do a thing about it. He may just walk away. He may escalate and try to control you through fear and violence. We just don't know.

You say you know him and don't fear him because you know him. I would say that, up to a couple months ago, you knew NOTHING about the true man. Because you were living with his 'good' side that he gave you because you didn't resist. As long as you went along and let him have the life he wanted, he didn't treat you TOO badly. Now you are forcing his hand. SOMETHING is going to change. Hopefully, it will just be a somewhat amicable breakup handled by your lawyer. I just am afraid that you won't protect yourself and it become the OTHER kind - where you end up dead, and he either ends up in prison or he convinces authorities it was an accident, and he ends up raising your children.

I'm going to go back and highlight your text again, so you can see the manipulation that we all see on this side of the page. Knowledge is your best protection.


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## turnera

Le vieux sage said:


> You are totally right turnera
> *Today he asked me to talk (being nice)* i was getting ready to go to work i said i don't have much time if you can say very quick what you have it's fine or you need to wait until tomorrow
> *he showed displeasure (anger comes out because you stand up to him)* but he said: i had so many things to say but *since you want me to finish quickly (blaming you so you feel guilty)* ok *you have until tomorrow to decide what you want (making you feel under pressure)* you want me to stay or to leave i need to know
> i said i think you heard me saying that in the meeting
> he said ok i know that's what you were planning for all the time and *you don't love me anymore (guilting you)* and *you hate me right (putting you on the spot so YOU are the bad guy by saying it out loud)* i didn't answer he said *if i leave that means no marriage counseling or anything else (threatening to control you)* and you need to know that *you will be hurting the kids (blaming everything on you so you feel guilty and stop)* because *i am not going to look after them (threatening so you get scared)* in case i left and of course it will be the end for me so* i don't know what could happen to me (being the victim so you feel responsible and stay)* *bc of your decision (all your fault)*
> anyway tomorrow be ready to discuss the important details of leaving
> i said ok and left to work!!!!
> 
> 
> At work he called me *his voice was so sweet (because you said ok and left, he had to try another card in his deck: nice)* and he seemed happy talking to me in lovely way
> he said when do you have your therapy appointment? (i don't know if i mentioned it before but i told then in the meeting that i have appointment with therapist through our insurance company)
> when he asked me i didn't give him an answer i said why?
> he said bc* i called them to ask them if you have appointment (danger sign! he's trying to control you; he might even have planned to stop you going or hurt you)* they said it's confidential so i asked them if they offer couples therapy they said yes so what do you think about it? *instead of going alone we can go together (another card in the deck, pretending to do what you want, until you say you'll stay)*?
> (here i was confused what this BS?)i said that's fine take the appointment so he called them and took appointment this Monday at 5 pm
> 
> I am going to my appointment on 26th May even if i have to go with him too anyway the first appointment together will be orientation so i will have my appointment with my therapist first.
> but i can't understand
> how this happened?
> why he changed his mind?
> what happened inside his crazy mind why does he do that? lol
> i am so confused!!!!!
> 
> Maybe his brother told him that or his lawyer and maybe his brother made him fear me going by myself to the therapist so he wants to make sure i go with him to witness everything i say
> 
> One other possibility you told me about it that only when he feels he is loosing me he seek therapist
> but i don't know why i don't think that it is about this last one. i think as you said turnera it's one of his tactics


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## LVS

turnera thanks for replying
I am going to read your post but first let me keep you updated about what happened

As i said he knocked at me door when i didn't open he left home after two hours i called him bc i don't want to let go the conversation of yesterday
i asked him what he wanted he said nothing just to see if i need any groceries (liar bc he didn't call me after that) i said i thought you wanted to talk about yesterday's unfinished discussion
he said no what for i am doing what you want do you mean you want me out i said i told you why i want that he said you want to destroy my life bc that's what you see and that's what you want bc you are selfish you don't see this ***** who is with you. I said you are talking about my life with you you never care about my feelings when you where talking to me or punishing me he said all was bc of you 
i felt we are going back to the same arguing i stopped and i said i don't want to talk over the phone he said that means you want me to leave why???? i am doing what you want? and going to the therapist?( i know it's not what i want it's couples therapy is like marriage counselor i don't know if they will direct him to a psychologist bc as everybody knows he is going to act the very nice gentleman )
anyway i said i don't want to talk about this now he was urging me to talk i said i don't want to talk without the presence of the therapist
he said than if the therapist didn't agree that we live in separate houses you will stop doing therapy right? you don't want to do as your brother said remember he said "if you don't have the intention to improve you relationship it won't get improved but if you want i promise you you will have a wonderful life together"
i said we will talk later i don't want to talk over the phone
he said that means you still want me to leave after all what i said
i will stay and we won't talk to one another what do you want more?
i said again i don't want to talk now we will talk in the therapist presence and we hung up.

I am so tired turnera 

I am going to call the hotline now, i don't have any energy to talk but i want to not give up i would never stay alive if i have to go back to my past life 
I will try to eat something first maybe some chocolate will help lol


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## turnera

Chocolates, yes!


Le vieux sage said:


> turnera thanks for replying
> I am going to read your post but first let me keep you updated about what happened
> 
> As i said he knocked at me door when i didn't open he left home after two hours_ i called him bc i don't want to let go the conversation of yesterday (you should not have called him; please stop doing this)_
> i asked him what he wanted he said nothing just to see if i need any groceries (liar bc he didn't call me after that) i said i thought you wanted to talk about yesterday's unfinished discussion
> he said no what for *i am doing what you want (he's the victim)* do you mean you want me out i said i told you why i want that he said *you want to destroy my life (he's the victim)* bc *that's what you see (convincing you that you don't know what you feel) *and that's what you want bc *you are selfish (making you hate yourself so he can control you) *you don't see this ***** who is with you. I said you are talking about my life with you you never care about my feelings when you where talking to me or punishing me he said *all was bc of you (blaming you for his actions)*
> i felt we are going back to the same arguing _i stopped and i said i don't want to talk over the phone (good!) _he said that means you want me to leave why???? i am doing what you want? and going to the therapist?( i know it's not what i want it's couples therapy is like marriage counselor i don't know if they will direct him to a psychologist bc as everybody knows _he is going to act the very nice gentleman ) (take your notes of his actions and how they line up to abusers and give the therapist a copy of your notes)_
> anyway i said i don't want to talk about this now he was urging me to talk i said i don't want to talk without the presence of the therapist
> he said than *if the therapist didn't agree that we live in separate houses you will stop doing therapy right? (trying to put you into a corner so if you say you will stop, he will push and push and push to get the therapist to say what HE wants, so he can guilt you into staying)* you don't want to do *as your brother said (guilting you)* remember he said "if you don't have the intention to improve you relationship it won't get improved but if you want i promise you you will have a wonderful life together"
> i said we will talk later i don't want to talk over the phone
> he said that means *you still want me to leave after all what i said (he's the victim, after all he does for you, how could you do this to him?)*
> i will stay and we won't talk to one another what do you want more?
> i said again i don't want to talk now we will talk in the therapist presence and we hung up.
> 
> I am so tired turnera
> 
> I am going to call the hotline now, i don't have any energy to talk but i want to not give up i would never stay alive if i have to go back to my past life
> I will try to eat something first maybe some chocolate will help lol


{{{lvs}}} You WILL get through this. Go find a shelter, and TALK to some of the women there. Ask them what it's like to not have to constantly be criticized or blamed or afraid or feel bad. You need to get some perspective, ok?


----------



## ADM

I think all this brothers' thing stinks man stuff...sorry to say I didn't expect very much out of it and I see you have lowered the weapons...listen to turnera and listen to the precedents and get away. I'm dead worried about you.


----------



## Uptown

Le vieux, I agree with Turnera and ADM. Keep moving toward your objective. It is unclear whether having him join you at the therapist will be productive. 

On the one hand, it likely destroys any chance of getting a candid assessment from the therapist, who now will be loyal to two clients instead of just you -- with him playing nice guy all the while. On the other hand, it may molify your H and thus keep him calmer until you are ready to leave.

Living with an emotionally unstable man is very disorienting and confusing because he has no stable image of who he is. This means that much of the time he is acting and he has no idea today how he will feel tomorrow. Living with him is the closest you will get to living with Alice in Wonderland, where everything turns upside down periodically. Many partners of BPD mates say it is like living in Oz. So don't beat yourself up if you periodically feel confused. That is to be expected while you are still living with him.


----------



## LVS

No uptown i am going to a different therapist in different date and different place than the one for couples therapy
so i am counting on my therapist to be able to help me by communicating with the other therapist about my husband situation

ADM i am not trying to make you worried about me but i need to work step by step i don't think i am lowering my weapon it is only one step to the back but as i said i am going to use it to do two steps forward
and i am trying to keep him calm this time until i will be able to make a safety plan

turnera i was always resisting \against his controlling way but he was dragging me back with his tactics it's two months since i started resisting in the right way
you really helped me with your post to clarify my mind it's was so important to read them highlighted the way you did it
i am aware of his manipulative way and all his tactics but i have my moments where i weaken and can't think with clear mind
there is so much going on in my mind
my son's wedding next summer and we suppose to go to my country for the wedding
i was hopping to handle until that time i was even hoping to handle until my little son turn 18 but 6 more years that's impossible to handle not even one month in this situation
but those are some of my thoughts that are stressing my life so if i broke up with him i won't be able to go for my son wedding not even have the finances needed for the trip


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## turnera

Shoot, by next summer, you'll be working and saving money and can even qualify for a loan to pay for the trip, if you have to! Don't worry about those things. I know it's hard to imagine, but from what I've read about people who leave bad situations, they are so surprised about how good they feel, that they kick themselves for waiting so long. Just to wake up in the morning and be glad, and not to worry about what will happen that day, to not have to think about what they'll do to get 'in trouble'...it's a whole life change. I can't wait to hear from you after you leave, and you tell us how full of hope you now are.


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## LVS

WHAT HAVE I DONE TO YOU??????????????????
These was his words

Here is the story
i was making my coffee and he was trying to be nice and smiling i said why you are talking to me?
him: why shouldn't i talk?
me: i don't want to talk to you anymore 
him: why
me: because as you said i am the one who trigger your anger with 
whatever i say
Plus don't think that you did what i want because couples 
therapy is the same like marriage counseling 
him: so what do you want?
me: i told you a psychologist
him: first we should go to see them than they will direct us to a 
psychologist
me: but i am still insisting to be in separate houses while
attending therapy
him: why what have i done to you to deserve that?
the whole week when your brother was here did i do anything
wrong to you and wasn't i taking care of your brother? it is 
not enough for you? to see me willing to change
me: we were talking to each other just because my brother was 
there and you took care of him not of me. i already took care 
of your parents and i am ready to take care of them at 
anytime they need 
this doesn't have anything to do with our relation
him: but you know we don't have money 
me: so you are telling me if i have the money i leave?
him: why you want to take the kids away from me i can't live 
without my son can you?
me: yes if i have too i will miss him like i miss his brother and 
sister who left home long time ago
him: do you know if we are away there is a risk that we could be 
away for ever
me: it is possible but also it's possible to become closer but if we
stay in the same house we won't be able to get closer.
him: do you hate seeing me this much?
me: you drove me to that
him: just tell me what have i done during your brother visit and after he left till now? don't i at least deserve to have second chance
me: what you done before that took all the chances


Than i went into my room and locked my door (he was talking with a very nice voice all the time not raising voice or yelling)


----------



## turnera

Just keep repeating that he CAN have his second chance - from another home.


----------



## LVS

Is this a new tactic? he never used it before
I can't understand what is going on in his mind after our conversation he was acting normaly and before i leave to work he called me to show me a fitness machine he got it through his doctor and he told me i can use it to exercise any time without asking him
I said i am not exercising anymore
I left home confused how can he ignore everything i said like it didn't happen it is like he deleted it from his mind ??????!!!!!!!!!!

I have a question: during our conversation he said if i want to leave i can't take my son with me
because i don't have enough money and i can't pick him up from school during my work days
Can he in anyway have the custody of our son he is 12 years old this point scares me
if he went through the court and if he has a good lawyer what are the risks to take my son away from me


----------



## turnera

No. You will at LEAST get 50/50 custody. In many states, if your son is 12, he can tell the judge which parent he wants to live with, and the judge will honor the child's wishes.

He CANNOT take your son away.

As to what he is doing, this is just one more in that wheel I told you about, another card in the deck. This one is called "I'm going to pretend she never said anything, and if she wants me out, she's going to have to physically get in my face and tell me to get out, and I know she's too weak to do that."


----------



## LVS

Everyday there is something hard 
he called me i was in my room he was asking me if i want to have lunch home or go out bc my daughter of 22 years is coming to visit
i said i don't care he said you need to pick something you like to do
i said i want to be with my kids it won't matter where
he said you don't want to go out i said i don't care if i want to i would be out of my room
he said if u want me to be outside home to go out of your room i will leave for couple hours 
i said you know what i want but you try to ignore it
we hung up 
Few minutes my son came to my room upset
he said in a rude way mom you can come out my dad left
his way shocked me i came out and asked him why he said so 
he said (in a blaming me)didn't you tell my dad to leave so you can come out now he left
i had a conversation with my son to highlight little bit his father's wrong way
my son see his father has right to get upset and we should avoid talking to him the way we do(me and my daughter) 
i tried as much as i can to explain things to him but i believe that the cycle of abuse make things not clear for him
my son said my father changed now why you don't try to renew your marriage 
as much as i try to explain with his young age he won't be able to understand
i can't blame him i wasn't understanding anything
i can make him read about abuse but i don't know if i should do that i don't want to confuse him he is in hard situation i wish i can protect him from going through all this crap
i can't understand how his father do that to him 
i know he wants him to hate me to gain him in his side but he is not caring about the effect of what he said on his son


----------



## turnera

Yes, he needs to understand what abuse is. You can show it to him, read to him, and explain how it applies to your marriage, in an age-appropriate way. You can do this without calling his father a bad person. In fact, when I talk about abuse, I have COMPASSION for the abuser, because he is more miserable than WE are - he cannot love.

Explain to your son that his father will never be able to be happy until you leave him and he has to seek help.


----------



## LVS

He asked us, me and my 3 kids for a meeting

I hope you can advice me before this meeting 

I am scared about his very nice way 

I don't want to be the criminal in their eyes

They see how much he changed 

They don't know what i know

The meeting is within 30 minutes


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## turnera

I hope I am not too late - no internet access - but do NOT go to this meeting without outside help!

DO NOT GO!

He is doing it so he can convince all your children that you are crazy or mean or evil.

DO NOT GO!

It is what abusers do!


----------



## LVS

turnera we are at the same house

all my kids are here

the meeting is going to happen be within few minutes

i can't run from being in it


----------



## turnera

Then call your best friends and BEG them to come over and be WITH you in the meeting.

lvs, this meeting is ONLY TO BEAT YOU DOWN.

Do you understand this?

He has only ONE GOAL in life right now - TO MAKE YOU STOP LEAVING HIM.

THAT IS ALL.

DO NOT DO WHAT HE WANTS WITHOUT PROFESSIONAL HELP WITH YOU AS WITNESSES.

*PLEASE* listen to me!

I have seen this happen with SO MANY abused wives. The man has no options left. He KNOWS your children are your weakness. He is WILLING TO DESTROY YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR OWN CHILDREN JUST TO CONTROL YOU AND STOP YOU FROM LEAVING.

This is NOT a game! 

PLEASE do not DO THIS!

Go get a room at a hotel if you have to. PLEASE!


----------



## LVS

i can't run away

i know his goal

i am in my room they are in the living room calling me

turnera i am scare

confident of what i know until now

taking my faith 

my hope and my knowledge with me as weapon

i will update you later

PRAY FOR ME


----------



## turnera

YOU ARE VALUABLE AS A HUMAN BEING ON ON YOUR OWN.

EVEN IF YOU NEVER SEE THEM TOGETHER IN ONE PLACE, YOU ARE STILL VALUABLE. 

Your children will know you love them.

They will understand later, why you had to be away from him, from them, for your own sanity.

CALL FOR HELP.

CALL SOMEONE YOU KNOW AND BEG THEM TO COME OVER TO YOUR HOUSE.


CALL THE POLICE IF YOU HAVE TO.

CALL SOMEONE.


----------



## LVS

Hello uptown

I need your advice
he wants to make a meeting with my 3 kids within half an hour
if you can advice me please before the meeting
I hope you read my msg now




Uptown said:


> Le vieux, I am confident that you will do fine in the meeting with your H and kids. You already know about as much as I do about BPD and you know a thousand times more than me about your situation and your children.
> 
> Most of what I have been telling you over the past two weeks is information that your adult already knows well. I write it because I understand the importance of helping your inner child to believe the things you already know. Toward that goal, repetition -- provided by folks like me who have gone down the same path -- will help close the adult-child gap.
> 
> At this time, you are doing a delaying action designed to keep him calm because -- even in the unlikely event you persuade him of something -- it will all be undone the next time an intense emotional wave passes through him. His reality is whatever he is feeling at the moment. But you already knew that!


----------



## LVS

I know it's not a game but I am proud of everything I said and the confidence I had

uptown, after I read your reply the words that you said to me filled me with confidence
turnera i didn't read your last post until the meeting was done but the fear that you had kept my guards on and gave me the perfect idea 
Since I know in California it's against the law to record the conversation without the knowledge of the two persons so I asked him and he said yes I want that more than you do. In my inside I was so happy because what he is going to say will be recorded and even if it is in our language it is acknowledging all his violence and mistreatment in our life so maybe I will needed it later

He started the meeting saying so many things happened in my life since we got married the reason you mom took me was bc I was a funny a smart and a happy person
but a big incident happened to me after the first year of marriage I can't talk about it and affected my life and turned me to a different person I said how you mention in front of your kids this incident and you don't want to talk about it he said you know I can't
I said yes you should say it bc like that you are pointing the blame back on me and you know It wasn't my fault he said no I know it wasn't yours and instead of mistreating my father I have mistreated you and so many other things happened that affected me more and more I was horrible with your mom and with all of you I did so many wrong things and your mom was so patient with me
until she couldn't anymore and when in the meeting with her brother she said it's enough we need to be in separate houses it was like a shock for me like a strong slap on my face (he looked at me and said) I don't want to lose you

Two words your brother said made this big change in me 
I said what was the 2 words he said “IT WASN'T YOU” who does these horrible things it's another person who is not me so I thought he is right it's not me I am not like that why I became like that I need to be back me (he found a way to blame someone else not the real him lol)
here I interrupted him and I said
No, it is you. The bad person and the good person are you. The incident was not the reason you changed you were like that and what happened made you show the hidden side of you
Here I mentioned things I know about him I said when you were child you spent 2 years not talking a word to your cousin who lives with you in the same house why? He looked at his kids and said bc so much things happened when I was child and you don't know my father was treating me the same way I was treating your oldest brother 
I wasn't happy as a child all my life I had to suffer
I said yes that's what I am saying I looked at my kids and said your father was so bright he excelled at school he was talented but his father neglected him so much and treated him badly and I mentioned few things affected his life as a child and young man and I said that's why it wasn't about what happened a year after our marriage. You were like that and it is not that incident that turned your life each incident was going to happen to us was going to turn you more and more bc you are a negative person and always see only the empty part of a full glass (I mentioned few incidents happened before this big incident and he was putting the blame on me and cursing and driving in crazy way).... 

... I said it's the first time you talk in front of our kids this way they will be happy and think you really changed but for me I don't remember how many times each year for 28 years I heard the same words in different context 
I believe you now as I always do you are saying the truth you are honest you want to make it up for me 
you want to change but you can't change and now you didn't change the way you think you did bc you still didn't heal of what was hurting your life and even now you are still putting the blame on all circumstances on your father on everything around you but not on you. Let me tell you one thing I lived the same with my father in different way maybe I had horrible times in my life I got hurt from you and from your family but I never treated you or our kids like you did!!!! and I never blamed anybody else for my mistakes

My 22 year daughter said mom you were affected in different way I said yes but I didn't become abuser
look to all people you know in our neighborhood did you ever heard a man screaming other than your father they said no I said so you think we have problems more than they do thy said no I said nobody was dealing with his problems like your father did 

My little son said but you should not talk to him to make him angry and you should help him to change (my son will become people pleaser if he won't get help)
I said your dad said it wasn't me it was the life he was living that made him become like that so it wasn't me right? My H said yes
and I said I can't help him he needs to help himsel
....My 22 year said I can see what my father said is very different than any other time and I can see this is a big change in him to acknowledge he was wrong in all his life with you and us and give you the right and said that he made you suffer a lot and that you sacrificed all your life with him and you helped us to become self confident and strong people to face life the way we do ….
So I think this is a positive thing and you should give him a chance
I said he took all his chances I gave him my last chance when I said he has 6 months trial and I warned him about the papers that I can with them file for divorce 
But he did what he did after that and was more horrible than he ever did in all our life so I have no more chances the only chance I can give is by attending therapy but from separate houses
than my 22 years old defended my point and said you can't blame her after all what she lived 
he said no of course 
Than my daughter said with all that being said I feel so happy I can picture us as a happy family all together I feel my dad deserve you give him a chance
I said I will but from separate houses
what you are picturing now I was dreaming of it all my life and every time he was saying those words I use to picture what you are picturing now but every time he was knocking all my dreams down 
he said you are right I did I was horrible person with you
you don't want me to make up for the past?
I said nothing will make up for the past life
I can't bring back my young days not my little children age
I don't want you to make up for me I forgive you but I can't forget
I said all I want now is to live my days day by day happily he said this is what I want to do I said that's why I ask you to leave bc I want to have hope for that but with you staying I guaranty nothing will change

He looked to my kids and said let me tell you why I can't be in separate house 
1the most important I love your mother
2 I can't live without you
3 not enough money

I said can I answer here he said yes I said 
1 if I can solve the problem of money so this we can remove it
2 you won't live without the kids you will be everyday with them and talking to them we can live in apartment close to each other so you will see them everyday but you won't be all the time with them so it will be less stressing on you right 
3 you said you love me Yes you love me as you understand love but not as love should be 
love should be unconditional and love should be for the best of the other and to fulfill your beloved needs 
not to see what the other person can give you and blame the other person for everything
how did you show your love to me? What did you do to fill my needs?
He said didn't I do anything for you?
I said yes you brought me clothes and food and you took care of my health what about my other needs tell me did I ever disrespected you or anyone of your family did I ever hurt you but you did all to me
so the love that you call love is not how it should be 
than he looked at his kids and said there is one more reason not allowing me to leave and I didn't want to talk about it but now I have to 
I have blood pressure I am at risk to have heart attack or stroke at anytime 
and for sure if I lived alone this risk will increase 

I said why you are saying so?
you said you changed and you are going to see psychologist so this should give you hope for better life and because you changed as you said so you should see the bright side
he said I can't do that if I am away

Than my 17 year old daughter said what you said relieved me from a lot of stress
you are willing to see counselor right? he said yes she said why you don't wait to see what the counselor will say? if the counselor said you stay in one house than my mom you should be open to this solution and if he/she said you should live in separated houses dad you should admit that for the best of your relationship
than he said of course if they do that than I will be feeling better bc I can tell everyone that the doctor said that but now if I leave everyone will think we are fighting and for that I left
I said why we have to care about what the others think it's our life what we see the best to be done we should do it without thinking about the others 

My kids are happy bc it's the first time he admit he did something wrong this is the first time he give me right and good image in front of them
I am happy for having this conversation in front of the kids to clear so many things my 17 years old daughter was doing very well my 22 years old daughter was talking in a rational way most the time defending me 
my little son trying to understand what is going on

The reason I am happy bc my kids saw that I wasn't wrong as sometimes they use to think bc of his way of treating me and putting the blame on me
Having everything recorded is very important for me


----------



## turnera

Wow. I am SO impressed. I NEVER would have thought of recording it. Very good.

I'm so proud of you. I was so afraid that you wouldn't be able to look at them all and see them pleading with you to keep him without crumbling. You're even stronger than I thought!

Couple of things. First, you HAVE to talk to this counselor you're both going to see BEFORE the meeting. You HAVE to explain to him/her the traits he has been displaying and point out that he is VERY good at looking like a perfect person when he has to. The counselor will understand what that means.

Also, do NOT agree that if the counselor says you should stay together, you will stay together. That is YOUR decision. NOT a counselor's.

Finally, his reasons for not leaving are pure hogwash - ESPECIALLY the high blood pressure. Oh PULLEAZE! Give me a break.

In Why Does He Do That?, you'd see all the things he said, even the 'I have bad health so you HAVE to take care of me' trick.

Now, is your husband capable of changing? Of course he is.

Should you give him a chance, if you still love him? Definitely.

But in all my years, I have only seen ONE man actually change and get better while still living in his home. Why? Because once the dust has settled, and he knows you caved to let him stay, the game shifts again. Back to HIS control. If he is outside the home, having to do the work to get back IN the home, he will/may actually do the work. If he stays in the home, he will just go back to the manipulations he's used in the past to beat you back down - the looks, the tsk-tsks, the shaking the head as in disgust, the silent treatment, the 'forgetting' what you wanted, the ignoring...all the little, inconsequential, hard-to-explain things he does that, if you told someone else about them, they'd say 'you're upset at him because he sighed at you?!' like you are crazy. And you'd be right back down that road, believing him, NOT believing yourself, losing yourself.

lvs, you NEED time alone. You've spent all this time being HIS wife, THEIR mother, your parents' child...you have the RIGHT to find out who YOU are. And I honestly don't see how you can do that, with him in the house.

You're in the US? Go to United Way and ask them to help you so you can afford two apartments, or whatever else they can do for you.

He's acting really really really nice right now, because he sees this as the ONE thing you are most likely to fall for. But don't be fooled; the minute he realizes you may not go along with it, he can change in an instant back to the person who tore down your soul all these years. He's nice right now because it serves HIM to be nice.

If he really loves you, he WILL do the work on himself - from another home.


----------



## Uptown

Le vieux, I was confident that -- given how smart you are and how well you understand BPD -- you would do very well. I had no idea, however, that you would do _THAT_ well! Damn, lady, you even RECORDED the conversation! I am simply blown away by your achievement!

You knew, of course, that reaching an agreement with your H would be as meaningful as building a sand castle beside the ocean. It would be washed away by his next emotional tide, probably tomorrow. So you targeted all your comments to your children's ears, the audience he had hoped to sway in his favor. And damn, lady, you even RECORDED the conversation!

As I read his remarks and your response, I was amazed at how dead-on correct, appropriate, measured, and calm your responses were. It reminds me of my old days of debating in high school and college. I would have been so proud to have you as my debating partner.

But please don't try to do that again if you can avoid it. I fully agree with Turnera that you and the kids are at risk because he will try most anything -- and perhaps everything -- to control the situation. Now that he knows he came out looking weak to the kids, he likely will not try the _nice guy_ approach again in any subsequent sit down. More specifically, he will not try the _please-save-me-from-my-wounded-self_-_that-is-not-really-me_ approach. It went over like a lead balloon. And damn, lady, you even RECORDED the conversation!

P.S. -- ASAP, make a copy of the recording so you have one for him to destroy and one to keep. (But you already knew that too!)


----------



## turnera

Oh, good point. Take your recording and go put it in your safe deposit box at your bank that is in YOUR name, and that he cannot get access to. Once he realizes you're still leaving him, he WILL try to find that recording and destroy it.


----------



## LVS

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
WOW turnera!!! uptown!!!
you made me more proud of my self with your comments
uptown you made me laugh i read your post 3 times and was laughing each one 
I LOVE IT!!! 
But i believe it's too early for me to tip myself
First uptown the recorded conversation is on my daughter's personal cam so i am waiting for her she want to put it on a CD but i am going to put it in my notebook, in my flash drive and in my email and i am going to send a copy to my oldest son in my country 
i wish it is in English but i know in case i needed it in the future for legal things they will find a translator
One thing also i should have done before the meeting was calling a hotline and getting their advice
But thank God i did well!!
I went to the meeting with the thoughts that i need to be strong bc i have witnesses my kids and the recorder 
Wow he acknowledged everything he did to me since we got married with his own voice with my kids witnessing.
I pointed to the abusive side especially when he hit his daughter and me and when he threaten to kill me and my daughter everything is recorded with his voice
Thank you turnera you inspired me when you were praying me to not go to this meeting and get a witness and bc i have no friends and even no time to contact anybody so i had this idea
in fact it was in my mind to record him while raging but i learned it's illegal to record it without him accepting that

The meeting took more than tree hours i tried to write the essential things 
I enjoyed writing and i felt you will enjoy reading it i loved how i turned it over his head
i surprised him he wasn't expecting that

turnera you said he may change i say from my experience with him and my knowledge about BPD he won't change because i was predicting everything he is going to say it's like watching a playback movie lol
for the first time in my life i feel in control of everything in my conversation
wow uptown and turnera you helped me a lot 
i was armed with my knowledge about abuse and BPD i remembered everything you said to me and i used them at the right place

BUT WHAT'S NEXT????!!!!!!!!!!!!
that's why i said it's early to tip myself
he amazed me about the way he remembered everything good in me
he was saying them better than if i want to talk about myself 
BUT when i was trying to think clearly after the meeting i found out he is saying my mouth words
means everything i said in my brother meeting and i use to say to him to defend myself he said it back to my kids the same way i did and even what he found helping his situation to exit and put the blame on somebody else he used my brother words so he was not blamed for anything but the other bad person who is not him lol

So as i am analyzing things
in my brother's meeting he knew the way i am defending myself and what are my strong points and what i want and how he can be safe
in the family meeting he used all what i said to obviously defend me in front of my kids to convince them that he did change and to make me not able to add anything more so he will be this way pressuring me to stay
BUT i surprised him with me targeting his life with a very controlled and organized way
BUT now i emptied my pockets he knows now all my defenses
and our next meeting will be with the counselor now i have nothing to surprise him and of course he will be having his plan which still unknown for me
I NEED TO ARM MYSELF MORE
I still have no clue how but i will find out
(am i thinking right???)
if you have suggestions please help me
i know it's not a game as turnera said i didn't want to go through it i was forced to but was ready 
and i need to be ready for his next try to turned it back over his head

As for leaving or staying I had to say i agree with what the counselor says bc i didn't want to give him a weakness to get me and i didn't want to lose my kids support but i know i need to follow up the conversation we had with additional information to my kids

Now i need to send to my 22 year old daughter information about abuse and BPD to let her know his tactics
if you have any right and summarized one please let me know

As for my 17 years old daughter she is always with me and she knows so many things and during the day she surprised me when she said MOM I NEED TO SEE THERAPIST (wow my heart was pounding of joy) i said why? she said so many things are happening that i don't understand and i need to feel good with myself i encouraged her and i said you will see a therapist and what you are not understanding i do
all you need is to ask me

Today is our first day couple counseling it is orientation meeting
i know nothing about what is going to happen but hopefully later they will send him to a psychologist 
(now the reason he is admitting to see psychologist is bc i said i need to go too
and he mentioned yesterday that he use to think a psychologist is for crazy people my 22 year old daughter said it's a silly thought everyone needs a psychologist.)


----------



## turnera

If you have time, if you haven't already done so, sit down and make a timeline of your whole marriage and all the things he has done that have hurt or diminished you. If you have it in writing, and can hand that to the counselor, your words will have more power.

btw, this is your LIFE we are talking about. If you felt you had to agree to stay together just for the meeting, you are ALLOWED to change your mind. GET THAT STRAIGHT. You are ALLOWED to change your mind and tell him to leave. Don't let him guilt you by saying 'you SAID I could stay.' 

You know what?

Too bad.

YOU said you would love and protect me, and you didn't.

No go.


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## LVS

This is a good one turnera
i am going to try it
it 's hard to concentrate now with so much in my mind but i am going to try
and if i convinced myself with the points i am going to put i will use it but if not i won't

About him in my life
In fact i don't want to see his face in front of me i told him that 
i need to breath without him around he doesn't want to see the reality he is still dreaming about something he did a good job in destroying it.

I need a brake from him in my life
after that i will be able to decide if i want to work on my marriage or not

Right now i don't want to help him or do anything i owe him so much before i started thinking to give a chance

The chance i am giving now bc i need him to see psychologist not bc i want him in my life
my commitment was not for his person it was for my values and believes i have no feelings toward him i walked away heart and mind long time ago
my soul was fighting hard to keep the dream of a happy family together for ever but he worked hard to knock down all my dreams


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## turnera

I know the feeling...

Good luck.


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## LVS

It was frustrating

This couples counseling was wasting my time it's like putting a high school student in a first grade class

Sorry for saying that but as you also believe he needs to do lots of individual therapy before we started couples counseling i am not this patient anymore 
i can't stress my life more i need to move on
Him being now doing all the positive things doesn't give me the push to leave
i feel i want to scream loudly
it's not fair spending 28 years waiting him to change 
and when i decided to leave he decided to change

It is another form of control keeping me stuck in a relationship i don't want


I WANT TO LEAVE 

I DON'T WANT HIM TO TALK TO ME 

I DON'T WANT TO SEE HIM 

WHEN I SEE HIM NICE IT HURTS ME MORE

IT HURTS TERRIBLY MY HEART

WHY NOW HE CAN BE NICE 

WHY I DESERVED ALL THIS HARD LIFE WHEN HE WAS PRETENDING HE CAN'T CONTROL HIS ANGER 

WHY NOW HE CAN AND IT'S LIKE A PIECE OF CAKE !!!!!


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## turnera

That is why I tell you that you need to be apart for at least 6 months. He can say he has changed. But unless he can keep it up for at LEAST 6 months to a year, without reverting to the abuser, it is just AN ACT.

I really want you to have a good life together. But I'm a big believer in Tough Love. Because it's based on psychology. And you can't fool psychology; it's a science. The man you have right now, because of the BPD etc., just can't flip a switch. It doesn't change overnight, no matter how much he may want to. He has to go through real therapy - and real therapy takes a LONG time. 

That's why I want you to push for separation for now. Not divorce, but separation. Give him a CHANCE, by agreeing to a separation, and if he can go through a 6-month period without reverting, then he is learning and changing. If he keeps reverting, then he's just doing an act.

You need that time alone to learn about yourself and fix yourself, too.


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## LVS

They gave us papers to fill before we started the couples counseling
He asked me if i want to check his paper to see if he talked right about me ( i felt he wants to show me something) i said i don't want you write what you want 
The counselor called my H to talk to him outside
Later my H told me that he asked him why he said he has thoughts of harming himself and my husband answered yes he had these thoughts not now but at the period before 2 weeks
The counselor said you should see therapist
This is the point that i was doubting about in the BPD test now he has this trait too

Anyway this is an additional thing he said it to me when he supposed to keep it to himself
but it's like warning me if i will leave him there is a big possibility that he will harm himself


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## turnera

Well, too bad.

You are NOT his mother.


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## LVS

If he is telling the truth to the therapist and acknowledging everything he did to me and my kids

How can i know if he is starting to change?

I am still limiting any contact with him unless it's something concerning the kids or the house
Just bc i don't want to talk to him or look at him not bc i fear his anger

Anyway should i still fear him hurting us?

Today he told me he took individual appointment with therapist
He won't mind if the therapist wants to talk to me

Do you think i should contact her before his appointment or wait until she asks to contact me?

uptown you said your wife spent 15 years in therapy what was the reason to not improve?
Was it bc of her? (i mean she didn't want to get improved)
or bc of BPD? 
how much are the chances for my H to heal after this long time 
he is now 55 years old?


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## turnera

I went to therapy for 3 straight years, and WANTED to change, and it still took me that long to be able to wrap my head around what I had to do, and start doing it. 

It's almost impossible for him to 'get it' and make necessary changes for at least 6 months to a year. If he is really really dedicated. Because it takes that long to rewire your thinking. At LEAST that long. 

You can WANT to change til the cows come home. But your brain is still hardwired to keep doing the same things that have worked for you since childhood, over and over and over. You don't just shut that off. 

I would email his therapist and let her know that you are dealing with what seem to be BPD or abusive situations with him, and if she is interested, you will be glad to share your information.

The fear of hurting you...what we're worried about is if he realizes he WILL have to move out, THAT is when he is liable to start grasping for straws to keep from leaving.


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## Uptown

> Should i still fear him hurting us?


Le vieux, based on what you've told us over the past month, I would say yes. Yet, you know the situation a thousand times better than we do. And you are the one responsible for deciding what is best for your children. This, then, is a matter you must decide. Based on the way you've handled other problems, I am confident you will make the right decision. Be sure to get the recorded conversation from your daughter ASAP and make a copy for hiding. Also, think long and hard about whether is safe for you to return to your homeland with him (for a wedding, I believe). I realize you have let your son's passport expire -- that is very smart. Just make sure your H cannot get the legal upper hand in any way if you return to your home country for the event.


> Today he told me he took individual appointment with therapist ... Do you think i should contact her before his appointment?


As I said earlier, I believe it is a total waste of time to go to couples counseling with a BPDer, who will only play mind games there. As to his individual appointment with a therapist (psychologist?), it too is likely to be a waste of time if he is going only to appease you and keep you from leaving. Learning to control BPD is such a painful and difficult process, his only chance of accomplishing it (over a period of several years) is if he desperately wants it for himself. That seems unlikely given the way you have had to push him to that meeting. I therefore doubt that it much matters whether you contact the therapist or not. Call her if you want to. Like I said above, I trust your judgment in this matter.


> uptown you said your wife spent 15 years in therapy what was the reason to not improve? Was it bc of her?


Yes, she was not sufficiently self-aware -- and still isn't -- to recognize that she suffers from BPD. I paid for her to have weekly sessions with six different psychologists over a 15-year period, all to no avail.


> How can i know if he is starting to change? How much are the chances for my H to heal after this long time he is now 55 years old?


I addressed both of these issues in a lengthy post to you on this same thread about four weeks ago. It is at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...years-marriage-what-ca-i-do-2.html#post142994 .


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## LVS

Hello my friends
The reason i am so quiet because i am doing a lot of rereading and searching and for most i was digesting all what i learned until now

uptown i reread most your posts one more time yes i have now clear mind while reading them so i understood them in better way

turnera i found the answer for a lot of my questions also in chapter 9 of the book why does he do that
I understand better what you were saying to me and why you were fearing him hurting me
Chapter 9 cleared so many things
yes that's what i am living and it's true he never hurt me even when he hit me there was no physical hurts 

BUT after the way he was acting lately i can see him when he will lose every hope of getting me back
he is going to pursue me back as the one who destroyed his life and family i am afraid he might not hit me but i see nothing will stop him from killing me or maybe getting more depressed and trying to suicide or also maybe killing me and than killing himself

That's why i am thinking deeply to have the wise exit not the fast exit
the good plan that i want is not to leave him safe but to help him to admit me leaving i know this is the hardest to be done
But as i read it's not impossible
What i need to do is what they advice at bpd family for leaving a BPD
Leaving A Partner with Borderline Personalty Disorder-Joe Carver, PhD

WHY i need that????
Because i need to stay in contact with him for my kids even to be able to go to my country for vacation without fearing him hurting me

ANY SUGGESTION?????


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## LVS

To update you 

My H went to the therapist on Tuesday

He was talking to me about so many things but not about therapy
After 3 days not saying a word i asked him bc i need to know what are his next steps 

He said he saw first a therapist (i think she is psychologist) After listening to him she told him that he needs to see psychiatrist to give him medication

He had the chance to see the psychiatrist at the same day

My H felt comfortable with him and told him everything and told him about the incident that happened a year after our wedding the reason that switched his life and turned him to be this ugly person 

My H said that he told him that i am hating him and i need to be in separate houses
The pshy said NO she needs to stay and if she keeps seeing you treating better your kids she will change her mind

Than my H told him that he was thinking to give me a vacation where i go to a place by myself enjoy my time even with a friend of mine
The psy said NO in this vacation you should be together
(here i couldn't handle or count to 10 i was so mad)
I said what he said how can i go with you and i can't look at you or handle seeing you with me My H said not now it's after a while
I said i don't understand how he says that 
My H said that he wants to talk to you but you weren't there but next appointment you can go if you want to 
and i am thinking to cancel my appointment with the therapist and stay only with him

I said hold on first let me check what's the difference between psychologist and psychiatrist 
After i checked on my computer i said you need to keep both of them and i need to go to both appointment i am not trusting this psychiatrist advice unless you told him the story your way
so you need to keep both of them at least until i talk to them
He said they are at the same page i said it won't matter i need to talk to them

The next appointment with the Psychiatrist is on 15th June
with the Therapist 1rst June

I feel something is wrong
I don't know if the psychiatrist's back ground is affecting his way or if it is what my H told him 
I can't judge before seeing them myself

My appointment with my therapist next Tuesday on 25th May
and i will be taking her advice too


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## turnera

First off, you have no idea if your husband is LYING to you about what the doctor said. Until I heard it from the doctor's mouth myself, I would completely ignore what your husband said he said about not leaving.

Second, the doctor has NO IDEA what YOUR side of the story is, so he has no right nor ability to judge whether you should stay.

Third, your husband most assuredly told this guy whatever, in the vein of 'I'm a good guy, I just need help' rather than my wife's afraid of me because I cuss her out, etc. So the doctor does NOT know the truth.

Fourth, the doctor wants him to keep coming, so of course he is going to tell him what he wants to hear.

Finally, like I said before, it makes NO DIFFERENCE what your HUSBAND'S doctor wants. YOU know what YOU need. Space.

Ignore it. You don't have to leave immediately, but by all means do NOT let him talk you into staying. He can do his 'fixing' by himself. In fact, he is much more likely to GET fixed, if you leave him.


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## Uptown

Le vieux, I hope your appointment with your therapist went well today. Is she a psychologist? If I recall correctly, this is your first appointment with her.


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## LVS

Yes uptown it is my first appointment and thanks for checking on me
i couldn't post yesterday bc for some reason i can't connect my laptop to the wireless connection
i had to wait until nobody home to use the computer

I learned yesterday that the T is MFT and not a psychologist so the same thing to my H he saw a T not a psychologist
When i asked why the receptionist said the psychologist work with higher cases!!!!(so i don't know when i tell the T about BPD if she is going to recommend a psychologist!!! WHAT DO YOU THINK?????)

As it is the first time for me to see a T i didn't know how to benefit of my time with her bc she was asking questions and i was answering i had a little time for me to ask i think next time will be better

It's weird that she didn't give me any advice but she was agreeing that what i lived was wrong and she encouraged me to keep doing what i am doing

She encouraged me to talk to my H T and psychiatrist about BPD

I asked her if it's right to talk in front of my H about BPD she said yes it's the right place to talk in front of T and psychiatrist

She disagreed and said no way it's not true the psychiatrist would never say what your H told you (that we should not be in separate houses while he is seeking therapy)

When i told her that my H is willing to stop seeing the T and just keep the psychiatrist she said he should not. The psychiatrist can't do what the T does.

And she said she have to report to the CPS about my H hitting my daughter bc it is child abuse
i said this happened two months ago it is too late now she said it's not to the police and he won't be in trouble now they will come and talk to him so he won't do it again

I asked her if possible not do it now bc when i go to my H T and psychiatrist i am going to mention that in front of them and if any body reported it after that it won't matter she said ok i am going to wait till next appointment

Next Tuesday is my H appointment with T

About the situation home nothing changed except he is not talking to me to give me the space that i asked for(inside his eyes i can detect resentment)
He is still acting extremely nice with the kids staying calm and patient but i know as you know he might explode anytime bc 

I have my weak time when i feel myself down. So much grief with dark memories flashing back drowning me in a deep melancholy especially now when i see him acting nice 
I know his case and i know no one to be blamed i wish i knew about BPD long time ago.............


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## turnera

I'm glad you're getting such good advice. Definitely she needs to report the hitting, as we said; your H needs to hear from someone like the police that what he does is unacceptable. Not from you.


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## Uptown

Le vieux, thanks for bringing us up to date with your T visit. The reason that your T says he needs a psychiatrist is for prescribing medications. Of course, BPD cannot be fixed by medications but they can address some symptoms (e.g., depression) that usually accompany BPD. 

Please be especially careful now that you are using the home computer. Before you exit the browser, be sure to go into tools or options and delete all history. That means deleting not only download history but also cookies and cache. I realize that you have said that your H is not computer savy but it would be easy for a friend of his to tell him how to examine the cookie and cache folders to see the addresses of websites you are using. 

Moreover, erasing that information will not protect you if a friend of his drops by and puts a software program on your home computer that keeps a record of all Internet activity. It could even show the text you type in at the websites. I therefore am not pleased to hear that your wireless connection was somehow interruped, forcing you to use the "hard wired" computer that he has access to.

Finally, I agree with what Turnera just said above. Sigh. Seems I am always agreeing with Turnera.


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## LVS

I am always agreeing with both of you 
before i start i need to thank you for your concerns supports and advices

Now my concerns are about how to talk
to my H T and psychiatrist i am just worried 

As for the computer i am using google chrome (incognito)
it leaves no trace (history cookies or cache)
i am even using it on my laptop too
bc if somebody tell him how
i think he can monitor my laptop bc i am using the same connection

Now i have no idea if he puts this software program if he can see what i am doing

But i know the really expert person in every single thing in the computer is my son 26 years he can access the computer from my country and check everything in it even fix problems and download programs......

As for the wireless connection i know it's not my H who cut it but my son was connecting his playstation to the ruwter
and i am not sure what he did so my connection is gone i tried to reconnect
i couln't the week end my daughter will come and check it for me

Any advice about the coming T appointment i really need it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I would write down on a piece of paper what you can accept and what you can't.

"I cannot accept a husband who hits me. Even once."
I cannot accept a husband who hits my daughter. Even once."
"I cannot accept a husband who calls me names, controls my access to money, keeps me from leaving the house, (fill in the blank). Even once."

Just go through your thread and write out a list of the things you've told us he has done. And put "I cannot accept..." whatever it is.

If you start talking and you feel under pressure, pull out the list and start reading it to them. Tell them THIS is how you feel and you will not be swayed because NO ONE ELSE is protecting YOU. So you have to protect YOURSELF. This list is you protecting yourelf.

I would also search and find a really good synopsis of what a BPD person is like. Print it out. Highlight all the things your husband has done. Hand that to your husband's therapist BEFORE you start.

Finally, point out that you WANT him to get better. You have hope he will. But you will NOT live with him until he IS better. PERIOD.

Remind them that you have suffered all these years and stayed with him. Now it is time for YOU to protect YOURSELF, and you will not do it with him in the same house.


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## LVS

I like your advice turnera i am going to work on that

Now i am in a bad situation of mind
I told you that finally he was giving me the space i asked for

BUT yesterday i came back from work to see his face smiling to me like if he wants to tell me something but he didn't i just said hi and went to my bedroom

I already told you that we are separated and he sleeps in our son's bedroom and my daughter sleeps in my bedroom
so while i was taking my son in his bed he pointed to the wall over his father's bed

I was shocked my H put around 10 pictures for me alone and others with my parents my sister and my best friend those pictures was taken when saying goodbye to me before i left my country and one picture for me and him
those pictures are mine and it saddens me just to look at them and make me cry

so i was shocked when i saw them on the wall i removed them while my son saying keep them mom....

I went to the living room and realized that he also put back a family picture he took it off 5 months ago 
When my H saw me putting them back in the envelope he said with resentment why did you do that without asking me? 
i said why you used them without asking me?
he said why not using them you should ask me before you take them off i said you should ask me before you use them
he said you need to know first why i did that i said i don't need to know you crossed my boundaries and you don't know how i feel when i see those pictures
you only care what you want and see it right but you don't care about my feelings than you take off our pictures together when you want and you put them back when you want i don't want to see our picture together

Here he said why you are treating me like that why you don't want to help me to heal and change???? Every time i try something you are rude to me even i am not allowed to say hi unless you said it first

I said don't misunderstand me all i asked you is to keep my boundaries and to talk the minimum and essential things in our daily life not the personal things so when you cross my boundaries i have right to talk like that to you

I walked to my bedroom and i left him depressed and crying
I ignored him but i felt soooooooo bad 

Today i woke up as everyday early with my daughter she saw him awake he told her he had headache and didn't sleep all night

while taking my daughter school she asked me what happened and i told her and with really sad voice i said he is going to ruin my relationship with you
she said mom he is trying to show us that he loves you and care for you and wants to make it up for you and that you are not helping 
I told her i am glad that she is understanding that and asked her to make this clear to her brother if he can understand it

NOW i feel myself awful i am not this kind of rude and mean and bad person in all my life i prefer being hurt rather than hurting the others what am i doing?????
i can see him unhappy i feel i want to give up i feel sad
but knowing about BPD scares me and i feel confused
i can't get back to the same unhappy stressing and boring life and i don't know if one day he is going to understand ??????????


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## turnera

He is using the kids to guilt you back.

I am glad that he's at least engaging in something. But you have the right to want what you want - not just what fits with what he wants.

Is your daughter in therapy? Her taking his 'side' in this truly frightens me. He hit her, right? The fact that she isn't mad at him but rather wanting to see him happy tells me that she is already down the path of an enabler, and that is not healthy. Make sure you point that out to the therapist.

As I keep saying, he is WELCOME to make these changes. From another house. If he is not willling to do the LONG-TERM work to get healthy from another house, he doesn't really love you, but rather wants to control you for his own benefit.

Go ahead and thank him for thinking of you. But in the same breath tell him that you STILL have your goals, and one of them includes seeing him get help - elsewhere. Because right now, _you don't want him_. Not until you can feel safe again.

lvs, you are ALLOWED to not want him. No matter what therapists say, your kids say, your family says. YOU have the right to choose what is right for YOU. NOT him.

Once you both have been through therapy and you see REAL improvement from him, not 'gimicks' like putting up pictures to guilt you, and you feel safe around him again, by all means welcome him back home. But if he doesn't leave, he will never change. He will keep doing what he knows - how to manipulate and how to use the cycle of abuse patterns.

BELIEVE IN YOURSELF.


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## LVS

Le vieux sage said:


> while taking my daughter school she asked me what happened and i told her and with really sad voice i said he is going to ruin my relationship with you
> she said mom he is trying to show us that he loves you and care for you and wants to make it up for you and that you are not helping
> I told her i am glad that she is understanding that and asked her to make this clear to her brother if he can understand it


In fact in details this is what she said i know the way i wrote it made you get it differently Sorry for that

(She laughed and said i see this is a childish behavior he is trying to make us think that he loves you and care for you and wants to make it up for you and that you are not helping.)

My daughter is so much better than me with setting boundaries and she is not taking his side she is analyzing his actions and she understand why he does that and she was saying it's a childish behavior 
She will never forgive what he did to her she distanced herself so much from him
She called me half an hour ago to tell me that he called her at school and asked her why she is staying after school and when he knew she is staying with her BF his voice tone changed and when she told him my mom knows he said you are like your mother both of you working against me and now you chose him over your father and he hang up 
She said she doesn't want him to interfere in her life anymore
and yes i am going to take her to a therapist
very soon not only her my son too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

As i read more and learn more i feel i still know nothing 
As much as knowledge empowers me as much as i feel cuffed

While reading i learned that T or psychiatrist won't help him to heal from BPD but from depression bc what they look for is taking care of his feelings not his behavior they will ask me to know how to behave with him to get better and ignore my feelings 

So i am not sure if i told them about him having BPD traits if this is going to help
Instead i think it is another card i am going to lose bc when he knows about BPD and he will project them on me and he will be able to mislead the T or the psychiatrist
I feel i need to do something i need to think of a smart way to talk with them

What do you think???


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## turnera

I would NOT be talking to the therapist or psychiatrist about him in front of him. I would set another appointment for yourself. 

And don't decide in advance what they will or won't do. You're not them, ok?

Just do what you need to do for you. Tell them - privately - what you feel is the issue, show them the proof, and then tell them that you will NOT be reuniting with him until the tendencies described in the list you give them are GONE. PERIOD.

You don't care if they 'cure' him or not, because you are moving on with your life. If they choose to look at that aspect of him for HIS sake - in terms of him wanting to stay married to you - that's their choice. All you can do is state what YOU will be doing.


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## Uptown

Le vieux, I agree with Turnera. (You know, I could save myself a lot of unnecessary typing by changing my name to _I agree with Turnera_.) I don't understand why you are so nervous about meeting with the psychs and therapists. Their first concern is going to be to medicate him to help bring his depression under control so he doesn't make good on his earlier threat to kill himself. Never mind that it likely was an idle threat.

If the therapists have the necessary skills to treat strong BPD traits -- and not many of them do -- it will likely take two or three years before you see any real and substantial changes in his behavior -- and that is in the unlikely event he really works at it. So you are not going to learn much from his therapists for a long time. And, as I've discussed, I doubt they will ever tell you the dreaded BPD term. Hence, their beliefs and decisions should have little, if any, bearing on your actions for at least two years. As Turnera said, you need him to be living in a separate house while he is dealing with them and they can think what they want to think.

As to your own therapist, she is on your side and likely will tell you her opinion within a few sessions. IMO, therapists with a masters degree have a spotty record for telling the difference between BPD and bipolar. Yet, if she is a psychologist, I would trust her judgment over anything said here about your H's traits. 

That said, now that you are very familiar with BPD traits, you should trust your own judgment about whether he has strong BPD traits. You can recognize the pattern of such traits without having a clue as to whether they rise to the diagnostic level.

Given how miserable you've been, why would you even care if they reach that level? Moreover, you know a thousand times what they will know (by way of the 50 min. sessions) about his behavior. Finally, just in case I forgot to mention it, I agree with Turnera.


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## LVS

It has been a while i haven't talk to you

First i need to let you know that what you, uptown and turnera, told me and the other friends at BPDfamily all what you said make sense to me and gave me a lot of insight 

You made me question myself so many questions you have right i was focusing more on him than on myself 
It won't matter what was my intention that was true i feel all my mind thinking about him and his illness and yes i need to focus on myself,anyway i don't regret what i learned till now i needed that. But keep reading and thinking about it made me more exhausted

So i decided to take a breath. There is one fact that we are separated. It won't matter if we are under the same roof or in separate houses since i can't leave right now so i need to start focusing on myself and that's what i am working on.
I am trying all what you advice me to do i called hotline i called agencies for assistance
I looking to find family counseling for my kids and i am looking for low rental house and for second job.

turnera you told me one time to try to visit a shelter and talk to women there but they told me i can't visit a shelter it's something related to confidentiality and privacy

You told me to to see the T and psychiatrist in separate appointment and talk to them about my H situation but they don't do that for the conflict of interest
I don't know how his psychiatrist told him that he can see me as individual patient while at the same time he is seeing my H.

Anyway my husband told me that he cancelled his appointment the 1rst of June with his T because they won't let me go with him and he want to stay with the psychiatrist because he speaks the Arabic language but the T speaks English and it is hard for him to communicate with her (it is a big lie) 
i have two thoughts in my mind 

1-the psychiatrist is agreeing with him about many things i mentioned before like we should stay in the same house and we should be together in a vacation but the T doesn't agree.
2-Maybe he is seeing the T secretly
i will know that soon because today i called to make appointment with her and they said i can't bc my H is her patient i said no he stopped and didn't go last appointment they said she should agree to take me. but if she agreed i need to cancel my 2nd appointment with my T i can't have both.


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## turnera

Sorry to hear about the issues with help. Just keep to your goal, whatever that is. What is your goal?


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## LVS

My main goals now are
1-Find my identity after years of abuse.
2-Keep seeing T to help me to heal.
3-Take my kids to see T especially my daughter 17 years old to help her heal and not commit the same mistake like i did.
4-Find a way to move out ASAP.

I would like to update you about our situation now
In a discussion 5 days ago he was saying that he knows why i am treating him like that i asked him why he said that he is collecting evidence and he will mention them in the court

I didn't fall down in his manipulative way lol 
than he said he knows who is supporting me to do what i am doing 

He said he was reading about detachment and they mentioned the steps for that and all what i am doing is following those steps
that means i am working to divorce him it won't matter if he is doing therapy or not

I said you are doing therapy for you not for me and if you are going just to keep me home you need to stop it now because you won't heal. And what i am working on is to take care of myself and it's not what you read it's you who drove me to that and we need to be in separate houses because i need to take a long brake from you to be able to work on myself because either me or you if we don't love ourselves we won't be able to love anybody else
*He said if you left you won't come back i know*
I said only one reason will be giving you another chance it is because you are the father of my kids
And if i was listening to what i am reading or what you called supporter i would be divorcing you long time ago tell me one reason to stay with you 
You said you are reading so did you read about abusers? he said yes i said wow do you see what they wrote applies on you? he said yes i said so you need to read what should the abused woman do and it's not what i did at all because i am stupid still giving you chances
*He said but i wouldn't be treating you this way if you were not allowing me to do that so it's your fault to*
i said yes i know what i lived with my father made me live like that with you but if i wasn't what i was you wouldn't marry me and in case you married me our marriage wouldn't be able to survive more than couple years......

It was a long long discussion with no positive results because he wants to change my mind and he wants to let me know he is changing and i am not helping even i am not staying neutral.
I told him i can't be neutral when you crosses my boundaries and that's why we need to be in separate houses because i am not able to help you i need to help myself and to know myself whom i didn't know before just know that what's keeping me home is lack of finances

*He said i can't live without you i assure you i won't survive more than couple days i just want to let you know if you left me and i died you know why.*
(the day before we went outing with his extended family and he spent the day without eating and he looked so despair)
i know he is manipulating me but also he was despair.
Now after our conversation he is doing well eating normally i don't know if it is because i said i don't have enough money to leave so maybe he is now feeling that i have no choices and i am not able to move out. This made him feel better because as he thinks right now i am still under his control.

I don't know it is just a thought
what do you think??


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## Uptown

> This made him feel better because as he thinks right now i am still under his control. I don't know it is just a thought what do you think?


I think you have a very good understanding of what is going on. You know that BPDers have a fear of being alone. Once it happens to them, however, they oftentimes are very quick to replace you with another person who becomes their soothing object.


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## turnera

Exactly.

I also think that I would not bring up finances again with him. Why? Because if you tell him it is MONEY keeping you with him, he will do anything to make sure you NEVER have the money you need. I've even heard of people disabling their spouse - harming them physically so they can't walk or work - so they can't work and thus can't leave.


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## LVS

Uptown said:


> ...It ends when you decide. You are in control. You are not trapped -- that is just a feeling. As I explained earlier, you are the glue that is holding the toxic relationship together.
> ...... At that point, when you are able to do that, you will know -- perhaps for the first time in your life -- what it feels like to have strong personal boundaries, being able to stand up for yourself and your children...
> ... Even if you cannot separate from him at this time, you will get there if he will not choose to fix himself instead of pretending that he is a victim. Turnera got there. So did I.


TURNERA !! UPTOWN !!
I DECIDED TO FILE FOR DIVORCE

I am going to post a new thread here and at BPD Family to get variety of answers but it is important to me to hear yours too please any advice!!

Here are the same concerns i posted there

One think still scares me, HIS REACTION.
Eventhough he is showing a lot of change in his behavior, I know people doesn't change over night.
He is so calm so nice to the kids he is talking to them with a very rational way he never did that before, with me i can't tell about his way (i limited my contact with him to the minimum;when he crossed my boundaries or when we have something to deal with in our daily life) 

What scares me will he turns back to his accusations and rage when he will know i filed for divorce????

I need advice

-What are the good side and bad side of divorce under the same roof????
-Do i have other solution????
-Legal separation IMO is useless now and waste of time for nothing(as long as he feels there is hope he won't start changing and he will keep feeling me under his control) plus i don't think it will work under the same roof i was thinking of it if we are in separate houses. What do you think? Am i right????
-I have no friends or family from whom i can borrow money or live with until i can find a second job.
-I am living in CA i got legal advice. They told me It will take 6 months and legally i can get divorced and continue to live under the same roof.
-What do you think about my case with the history i had with him?????

Any suggestion?????
from anyone please
Thank you !!


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## LVS

turnera said:


> I just don't understand what you expect to happen, once he gets the papers served to him? When you can't go anywhere! He will be furious. He will be desperate. You may be in danger, and you will have no resources to get away from him safely.


I am really dying everyday
Maybe i need this push to get out
I am on my guard all the time to force my boundaries
It seems like i have no right to be this strict in that and for him i should forget the past and start over since now he changed and he is talking in a nice manner

He is accusing me for being mean and stubborn and that i became liberal and anti Christ and he won't allow me to keep doing wrong things and with all what i am doing i don't want him to get better 

This was because I asked him to contact the phone company to give me authorization to separate my phone number from the family plan and have individual plan.

Than he started accusing me that i want to hide my phone calls so he won't be able to monitor me and than i will be having affair...


Wednesday is my daughter's graduation (every special occasion he do something to ruin it)

Before saying anything he gave me two links and asked me to read 2 articles about divorce and catholic church after that he said just read the first one 

The Teaching of the Catholic Church on Divorce 

Divorce and the Catholic Church 

He is forcing me to a conversation tomorrow (as he said it is divided to three parts first part a logical study in rational way about what led our marriage to this situation 2nd about the house and responsibilities 3rd about divorce advantage and disadvantage 
i said we agreed to talk to each other only to discuss the kids and house hold matters 
He said that was because i had blurred vision but now i can see clearly 
Than he said this is going to be really calm and rational one and if you don't argue or being mean it won't take long time i said i am not mentally prepared to any kind of conversations keep it until after the psychiatrist appointment he said no tomorrow it must be tomorrow you don't have to talk just listen and it should be before the graduation. 

Gosh!!! I am so tired!
I said We can be there for her he said what about the picture i said we can take a picture what is the problem he said no like that we will be a family and we are not a family
i said if you have a problem we take pictures with her each one alone
he said do you think this is good for her?? i said she will agree he said ask her and if she agreed i congratulate you for doing good job in harming her....

So let's see what tomorrow hides??
I don't feel good about it


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## turnera

Just ignore him.

You don't have to have *any* conversation with him. You are an adult and can decide when *you* want to talk to him.

Do not go!


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## LVS

I tried to avoid it but i found him serious and he might ruin the graduation for my daughter

So i had to stay in conversation i was more listener than talker for 4 hours he drained me and left me breathless
The few times i talked my opinion was leading to arguing and he was accusing me for being stubborn and he said he understand that i am so much sick and i need psychiatrist
I said i am here to listen not to be evaluated if you keep talking like that i will have to leave

First part he said what leads our marriage to this point
1 Women have more capacity to handle stress than men can do..
2 You were a weak person so i thought to myself to let you become stronger i should become weaker and that's what i did but it was like someone who said a lie and believed it so you were getting stronger and i was getting weaker
Now i woke up and i won't be weak anymore
and would never treat you like before we will use communication with any arise problem in a logical manner specially concerning the kids

I said good for you and for the kids not for me and you it is too late for us.

He mentioned about me stubborn and mean than continued talking in calm way and he said so many things led him to get change, the psychiatrist (lol), me, our kids, and for most God.

2nd part was bc i insisted to have individual phone account so he said i should share with him responsibilities and payments for the household not only the rental 

I said it's fine with me like that you made divorce easier

He said this is the subject of the 3rd part

I am a Catholic and our church allows divorce only in case of adultery so i don't think you have any reason for divorce and i strongly refuse the civil divorce
I said our life is like divorced couples so what's the difference the papers are for legal things
He said church won't allow it (i didn't say anything about annulment) i said i won't talk about it and civil divorce is not a sin unless if any spouse remarried before getting church divorce and he was arguing about this point so i stopped talking i don't want to open my cards.
but i mentioned that we can get divorced and stay under the same roof ( i didn't mention anything about filing)
He started saying how my family will refuse divorce as well as his family and maybe this will kill my parents and his mom plus family and friends will be disrespecting me
now on him he said divorce will have a negative reflect bc no T will heal him and for most our kids we should protect them even we had all these problems in our marriage but God blessed us with wonderful kids they need a family life and divorce will affect deeply their life God protect them until now but he can't protect them if we don't do our part so no divorce he won't accept it under any circumstances and he won't let me do anything to hurt our kids
Finally we need to have our shared time with them we should show them we are happy even if we lie i told him no we should be happy for being with them he said we need to talk to them and let them know that even we have our problems but we love them and care for them i said of course even if we are divorced this should not affect them 
he said no divorce i said within few years our kids will leave why you want to force me to stay with you he said when they leave we will do divorce i said no this will take long time and we can keep it between us until they leave (this way we ended our conversation i know he won't agree with divorce but i am setting the ground maybe gradually he will get use to the thought of divorce and won't shock him

what do you think about that ? do you think it might work?

One more thing he is projecting all his negative behaviors on me and he is saying he is going to support me until i heal......

Sorry my posts are always long i try to summarize but can't more than that

I always appreciate your time, your support and your advice


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## turnera

He doesn't HAVE to agree to divorce. All YOU have to do is FILE it. If he doesn't want it, that's his problem.

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure I've read that Catholic church allows divorce in cases of abuse, so quit letting him use that against you. You and God know the truth.



> he won't let me do anything to hurt our kids


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be careful.

These words are starting to tread on the dangerous waters we have been warning you about. The more he realizes you are serious, the more desperate he is going to become. He is starting to talk like a man who will take ACTION to get what he wants - and he will believe it's for your own good that he harms you or paralyzes you or kills you.

lvs, PLEASE STOP HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM ALONE. Every time you do, you end up getting in a weaker position because he wears you down, he goes through the abuse cycle, just like we talked, and he WILL NOT STOP until you cave and do what he says.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> He doesn't HAVE to agree to divorce. All YOU have to do is FILE it. If he doesn't want it, that's his problem.
> 
> I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure I've read that Catholic church allows divorce in cases of abuse, so quit letting him use that against you. You and God know the truth.


He was asking me to give my opinion about divorce and Catholic Church but i didn't give him any answers i know i can get annulment not divorce 
bc of the abuse and i have in my hand 
(When I Call for Help)
It is
A Statement of the U.S. Catholic Bishops
USCCB - (FLWY) - When I Call for Help: A Pastoral Response to Domestic Violence Against Women



turnera said:


> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be careful.
> 
> These words are starting to tread on the dangerous waters we have been warning you about. The more he realizes you are serious, the more desperate he is going to become. He is starting to talk like a man who will take ACTION to get what he wants - and he will believe it's for your own good that he harms you or paralyzes you or kills you.
> 
> lvs, PLEASE STOP HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM ALONE. Every time you do, you end up getting in a weaker position because he wears you down, he goes through the abuse cycle, just like we talked, and he WILL NOT STOP until you cave and do what he says.


Before uptown says it :iagree: i agree with you yes he started to take action and to justify himself if he treated me bad or hurt me
but you know i am living in the same house with him and i can't run away when he wants to have conversation i might be able to postpone it but not run from it and i am not showing him any weakness
I understand what you meant by saying (getting me in a weaker position) but turnera when i had to do things i don't run away i face them arming with hope and faith and what i know till now and all my friends words, you know i mean on this board and at BPD family boards, are always as a warning to keep my eyes widely open


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## turnera

If you have to have a meeting, bring a neighbor.


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## Uptown

Le vieux, please listen to Turnera. The idea of your divorcing an unpredictable, unstable BPDer while living with him really scares me. I realize that, even if you were living separately from him, there still would be risk because he would have visitation rights for seeing the kids every week. But that situation would be less risky because you would not be spending so much time around him. Please be very careful.


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## LVS

I know i am into fire and i can't avoid to be burned how much i can save of myself is unpredictable till now
I know i am working right my friends i had no other choice it was or divorce under the same roof or surrender and never try back no third choice no matter what are the thoughts i had and thought i could do it wasn't going to work and that was killing me more..........

Now let me tell you what happened today 
The HR called me while at work to tell me that my H called her(first time he called my work) and left voice message to call him ASAP
I went to her office and asked her to let me hear the call. He said he wants to surprise his wife and he needs to talk to her supervisor to ask her to give his wife(ME) days off he wants to surprise me with a vacation(I don't know if he means me alone or with him.

OH MY GOD!!!!
That's really ridicules i was mad why does he do that ? what that means?
Does he want to show everybody he is good so he pressures me to not file for divorce 
Or just other kind of control even to send me for vacation when he wants and the place he wants
because i can't think him loving me and wanting to show more his love(that's what he wants me to believe)
Even if he might have a thought to make me lose my job he won't be able to do that i am really honest i never lied and he can't tell them anything bad about me...

He made me justify myself to the HR and even talk about my personal life to people i never thought i would let them know about it wow that was really really stupid


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## turnera

You need to tell your HR AND your boss that you are divorcing him. Did you? Tell them that he is abusive and potentially dangerous, and ask them to NOT allow him access of any kind!

This is what I was telling you about - the more he sees what you are doing the more desperate he becomes. It's like a man falling off a cliff - he'll start scrambling, clawing around for ANY root he can catch and hold onto, just to keep you from leaving. Expect him to try 100 more ways to prove himself or make you change your mind. This right here - the leaving part - is the MOST dangerous time with an abuser.

lvs, this is getting VERY scary. He may have nothing more in mind than 'proving' he loves you; but he also may plan to take you away somewhere and either brainwash/beat you into submission, or just make you disappear.

I'm sorry if I keep making him sound like a monster. We don't know him. We just know that he exhibits many of the traits that you will see in people who have done horrible things. He could just be a mildly clingy controlling person; he could be a psychopath. We don't know. YOU don't know. But if you are even at the point where you're considering whether he might hurt you, you need to ASSUME he will, for your safety. Once you're hurt, you're hurt.

Like I keep saying, if he IS a good guy and WILL get help and become 'born again,' he can do that from another home, and EARN you back. If he really loves you, he will understand what YOU need and respect it.


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## LVS

My T appointment Monday i will ask her help to get multiple plans
my appointment with him with his Psychiatrist Tuesday
Hope everything will be ok

As at my work I had to tell HR i filed for divorce and i told them he is abusive and this is a way to control me and bring me back to him
My supervisor knows that i already talked to her about him and she was encouraging me to leave him since day one she always tells me i deserve better life......
About antisocial psychopath or sociopath i don't think he has enough traits from any one i know 
I don't know i feel confused about what kind of disorder he may have he is manifesting new type of behaviors he never was this way
maybe because i never was like that i am now challenging him
i can see all what i read about abuse and bpd behaviors in him
BPD traits with depression sometimes he shows high functional BPDer sometimes low functional and he still blame things on me even now he changed his behavior but not his thoughts and believes 

About fearing him being dangerous i fear his illness affecting him
It was the rage that he was going through and me standing up for my rights what challenged him more 
It happened one time he hit my daughter and i was separating him of her so he hit me(not injured even not marks bruises or pain) 
he never did that before
he is not a kind of person who solve his problems with violence 
what scared me is everything was escalating until he threaten to kill me 
he never also did that before 
i know what you might be thinking now( he could kill me and he never did that before)
i have nothing to say now he is showing me he changed i don't know how much the prescribed medications from his psychologist can help him
i don't know if med can help him reduce or control or eliminate his rage and anger if this also will help him to work to change his perceptions so things won't bottled up
now he has complete control on himself better than i do i know he is trying to change my mind but my question is everything i use to say or do use to trigger his anger and he use to rage and by that he use to feel kind of satisfied now he does nothing but being sweet he was never in his life like that (but still i can see the meanness in some of his expressions)
bottling up things scares me he is not a kind of forgiving or forgetting person
i feel it's going to happen to explode again when??? i don't know. but as long as he keep feeling controlling me i don't think he will until he turned me back and it is not going to happen

Soon or late he will explode bc i won't change my mind the way he wants me to, whether i filed for divorce or not 
i know divorce will not give me as much time but also if we will be civilly divorced we still have our marriage in church so for him i will be still under his control and it will be losing a battle not a war

I am always open to any suggestion from anyone plus i need that 
Thank you


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## Uptown

Le vieux, I agree with both you and Turnera that what you are seeing is an attempt to reel you back in and control you, i.e., typical BPD behavior. I doubt it is any lasting effect of the medicine because BPD is a thought disorder that cannot be controlled with pills.

The reason that medicine is prescribed for BPDers is that it is usually accompanied by anxiety and depression (or bipolar disorder in up to a third of cases) and the medicine does help with those symptoms -- but not with the underlying thought disorder. That is how it was with my exW. After I had known her for over 40 years, she betrayed me in ways that I had been convinced that she was incapable of. I could not have imagined she would do the hateful things she did. But, with emotionally unstable people, you never really know what they are capable of doing.


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## LVS

Question

Tuesday is his appointment with his psychiatrist. I told my H i am going with him. 
I am not interested anymore specially now i filed for divorce.
Maybe if i changed my mind he would blame me
BUT
what if i went there and my word was against both of them 
I might end up to be in a weaker position as turnera said about my conversations with my H
I told my H ok i will go just to tell him in front of his Dr what i am going to do but does it worth??
Can you see what's positive or negative things of seeing him???
Do you think it's better to go or not???


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## turnera

I would go. His doctor NEEDS to hear your side.

Just don't let yourself get drawn into defending yourself. You know the truth. Nothing else matters.

And by all means, NEVER EVER agree to anything there that you don't want to do. They have no right to ask you to do anything. You're only there to help HIM get help.


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## LVS

Hello my friends

Little updates to my thread,

About him calling my work nothing new happened he didn't call back but i told HR to tell him in case he called back what i agreed with my supervisor on it
that he cannot ask for a vacation without my knowledge bc i should ask for it myself

About the life home after our conversation he is acting like if what he said should draw us closer and he is expecting me to change and when i didn't he showed me his displeasure
He keeps in every occasion showing interest in me how i feel and how i am and if i need anything....but i am keeping boundaries and straight face with him.

Yesterday he asked me if i am going today with him to his appointment i said i wonder why should i he said because you said so and because he asked to talk to you last time
i said ok i go but only to tell him what i want he said so don't go bc you don't tell a psychiatrist what they need to do i said yes i am not asking him to do things i am going to let him know what i want not him to tell me what he wants me to do my H said so you didn't change your mind i said why should I what i decided i am totally convinced it is the right 
he said even now? ( he meant after all the good and nice things he is doing....)
I said yes do you thing what you are doing now is going to delete what happened during 28 years
He wanted to start conversation but i stopped it and went to my room.

I will keep your advices in my mind during the Dr appointment

I am leaving in about and hour if there is any additional advice.


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## turnera

Just don't agree to anything!


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## LVS

I got ready i left my room to find out that my H left home
I called him he said he thought i am not going
i told him why he didn't call me he said bc i don't want him to call me BS
he said why you want to go if you don't want to listen to what the Dr is going to say i said ok tell me you don't want me to go he said anyway you were not going to ride with me so you still can come

I went but i really wish i didn't bc the Dr wanted to make me understand my husband's feelings and to give him another chance bc he is feeling his guilts and wants to make it up for his family

After listening to me the Dr said

First he explained why we should stay under the same roof as he said we should if we need to work on our relationship
i said if there is still a relationship to work on it what we need maybe to restart a relationship which is not existing anymore and this won't happen if we are under the same roof

The time was over and the Dr asked us to come back during his lunch brake he will see us again i said it is waiting two hours i don't think you still need me i don't think i can help with anything i said what i have
He said you seem picked your mind i said yes nothing is going to change my decision i hope you can help him to get better and be a happy person disregarding who is in his life
I said he needs to do his work without me as his wife i can't help him i need to help myself i gave him all the chances i could give 


He said I agree with you his problems are related to his childhood and he is acknowledging that and you said you want him to focus on his problems and he is doing that 
Last time he was really regretting all what happened and i almost had tears in my eyes 
i said all what you saw i lived it hundreds times in the 28 years feeling sorry for what he did than switching back to the same person. For me it's over and he won't change

My H told him before that all our problems started after the incident of his father
I explained to him how it was years before that and the Dr was taking notes but he kept saying the same things and that now my H is much better than the last time when he was totally depressed

I felt the Dr was trying to find a way to convince me to give him a chance not to listen to what i am saying and when he was saying that my H is changing, and i said no he is not, he said it is my job to know and i am telling you he is on the right way and he is changing i can tell.
I said Dr you only saw him once i lived with him 28 years he said i have my ways to know the truth all i need you is to understand his feelings and give him the chance to show you how he changed
I said it won't matter now he needs to focus on himself and get the help needed but not with me in the equation.

I don't know if the Dr is really believing what he is saying or just have to say that to be by his patient side????


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## LVS

Before i left i wrote on a piece of paper that i filed for divorce and i handed it to the Dr

Outside my H was mad and blaming me for not listening to the Dr and he said most of what i said was not correct 
i said why you didn't interrupt me if i am saying wrong 
he said you didn't allow me anyway we need to have a long conversation 
i said no we don't need 
he said yes and this time it should be different and clear one

He left and i walked back i asked the receptionist for a paper and i left the Dr a letter with her

In the letter i said 
I am really sorry i didn't mean to disrespect your view point i know your experience in this field but also i know what i lived for 28 years.

I know the cycle of abuse and i know when an abuser is fearing abandonment what he might do to bring back his partner to his life.

Everything I read I am living it with him.

I read a lot to find why he does that.
I was blaming myself more than you can imagine.
Until I read about abusers and even BPD.
I am not saying he has BPD but most of what I read implies on him (even if he is not BPD. It's hard to live with)
I know he needs years of therapy. I really hope for him happiness

Thank you


I left my phone number and email address in case he needs any information to help my H


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## turnera

As usual, you did great! Very smart. And you're right, he was just focusing on getting HIS patient what his patient wants. Shame on him. NONE of that should matter when abuse is present. Your H is a hell of a manipulator, if he's got that doctor snowed.


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## LVS

I tried to tell the Dr in an indirect way in my letter about BPD hopefully i did it the right way
And hope this will make sense to him

(I did some editing on my last post and i added my H's reaction after the Dr visit)

I can't tell if he was manipulating the Dr but i know in the first visit he was very low functioning, depressed and despair he might be crying and any person who doesn't know him could really believe him and feel empathized with him as much as his Dr did. BUT now after reading my letter and listening to me the Dr should rethink the situation 
*Bc if this can trick any person it should not blur a psychiatrist vision *

I believe i said what i need to say, but i know myself i can control very well my reactions but i can't control the effect of things on me. I feel in my inside pressure, sadness and discomfort.


I should also say thank you bc you are supporting me and your words represent a great advice and help in my hard time


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## Uptown

Le vieux, yes, it sounds like you did very well. Congratulations. The letter to the P was a thoughtful touch. In my experience, you have to go to your own psychiatrist to get a candid explanation of what your spouse has -- when it is BPD.


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## LVS

*Re:End It When It Never Ends*

*HOW TO END IT WHEN IT NEVER ENDS*

He was with a straight face asking me to talk to him bc he has something to say
I told him to write me a letter and i don't want to be in this conversation he said he can't he needs to talk and i have to listen 

I said if you talk to me like that i don't have to listen (oh i wish i had recorder and record the conversation)


He said after the way you talked to the psychiatrist today you showed me that you don't need a Dr to help you you need a Dr to only tell you that you are right
After what happened today and yesterday i have something very important to say

When we where in our country you were not thinking like that bc you had your friends and you were running away even from taking care of our kids but now even we have less problems than before you are doing all these things because you are with those who are supporting you who doesn't care about family and religion (sorry it is his words)

*HERE ARE HIS STATEMENTS *

I was blaming myself thinking that i am wrong and you are right i was feeling guilty but now i woke up i wasn't wrong
-you were treating me wrong since long time i should do the divorce but bc i care for you while you don't but i still care
so i didn't file for divorce 

I said you see you never change he said yes i changed whether you agree or not

Here the deal the summer started i am going to enjoy my life and live happily with my kids and my wife 
-You have to find out how to fix the relationship bc you are my wife that's who you are and that's how you are going to stay
-I have two rights on you you have to give me my rights
*1rst righ*t is to have sex you are my wife you have no rights to stop me of having my needs met this is the animal side in us as human being even if we have problems you can't deprive me from this right and this is your duty you have to do it.
-The lower half of you belongs to me

i said so you want to force me to have sex he said no but i can report it to higher authorities and you will be blamed bc you would be pushing me to have adultery and this is against our religion. i said ok go ahead and report it. he said as i said you cannot deprive me of my rights on you.

*2nd right* to sleep in my room i left my room for you but it is my right to be in my room and in my bed you can't keep me out of my room anymore

-I am going to wear back my wedding ring because i am married and it is how i am going to stay

-Never talk about divorce bc it is not going to happen even if you are going to say what happened i will say i was sick and i am now getting better
so forget for ever about divorce 

-Two ways for you to be free
1rst if i died
2nd if you poisoned me or kill me

-One thing i am sure of it is you may have someone else is waiting for you to be free and be with him so let him know that he is wasting his time you are staying my wife for ever
all you can do is cheating with him this you can get away with it but if i know it you don't know what i can do

I told him thank you you gave me the push that i need to file for divorce now
-He said don't ever mention this word bc it is not going to happen

I said did you finish he said yes i left the room while he was saying i have a week to think about it he is coming back to his room


*I HAVE NO COMMENTS !!!!!!!!!!
I AM SPEECHLESS!!!!!!!*


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## turnera

Yep. He's swinging back around to the mean side. The nice side didn't work.

Time to move out.


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## sisters359

Things are going to escalate, quickly, when the divorce papers are served on him. Get out, now. There must be women's shelters or other resources where you live, or call your brother and have the monastery help you out--seriously. You cannot risk his violence. 

The whole "you are not allowed to say that word" conversation was his message, loud and clear. He will NOT allow it. Will he take out his violence on you or himself, that is probably the only unanswered question. You are risking lives if you stay.


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## turnera

*Re: End It When It Never Ends*

Here's my analysis:


Le vieux sage said:


> *HOW TO END IT WHEN IT NEVER ENDS*
> 
> He was with a straight face asking me to talk to him bc he has something to say
> I told him to write me a letter and i don't want to be in this conversation he said he can't he needs to talk and *i have to listen *(starting to exert his force again)
> 
> I said if you talk to me like that i don't have to listen (oh i wish i had recorder and record the conversation)
> 
> 
> He said after the way you talked to the psychiatrist today you showed me that you don't need a Dr to help you you need a Dr to only tell you that you are right
> After what happened today and yesterday i have something very important to say
> 
> When we where in our country you were not thinking like that bc you had your friends and *you were running away even from taking care of our kids* (starting to blame you again) but now even we have less problems than before you are doing all these things *because you are with those who are supporting you who doesn't care about family and religion *(trying to separate you from your support group so he has control again) (sorry it is his words)
> 
> *HERE ARE HIS STATEMENTS *
> 
> I was blaming myself thinking that i am wrong and you are right i was feeling guilty *but now i woke up* i wasn't wrong
> -you were treating me wrong since long time i should do the divorce but *bc i care for you* while you don't but i still care
> so i didn't file for divorce (he's the victim again, all your fault)
> 
> I said you see you never change he said yes i changed whether you agree or not
> 
> Here the deal the summer started *i am going to enjoy my life and live happily with my kids and my wife* (exerting control and warning you to obey)
> -*You have to find out how* (finalizing your options for you) to fix the relationship bc *you are my wife* (sees you as his property) that's who you are and *that's how you are going to stay *(warning you to stop)
> -*I have two rights on you you have to give me my rights *(warning you to not fight him)
> *1rst righ*t is to have sex you are my wife *you have no rights to stop me* (OMG! you are going to be raped, and soon) of having my needs met this is the animal side in us as human being even if we have problems *you can't deprive me* from this right and *this is your duty *you have to do it.
> -*The lower half of you belongs to me*
> 
> i said so you want to force me to have sex he said no but *i can report it to higher authorities* (clutching at straws by thinking you'll let the church MAKE you, GUILT you into it, which has probably worked in the past) and you will be blamed bc *you would be pushing me to have adultery* (as usualy, the abuser blames the victim to control her) and this is against our religion. i said ok go ahead and report it. he said as i said you cannot deprive me of my rights on you.
> 
> *2nd right* to sleep in my room i left my room for you but it is my right to be in my room and in my bed *you can't keep me out of my room anymore *(he is getting ready to push you BIG TIME to SUBMIT to him 100% - whatever way it takes him, he INTENDS to get your COMPLETE submission back to the way he had it and he liked it)
> 
> -I am going to wear back my wedding ring because i am married and *it is how i am going to stay *(re-exerting control over you; nice didn't work; he's back to mean)
> 
> -Never talk about divorce bc it is not going to happen even if you are going to say what happened* i will say i was sick and i am now getting better *(typical abuser who tries to convince you that you will never 'win' so give up)
> so forget for ever about divorce
> 
> -Two ways for you to be free
> *1rst if i died*
> *2nd if you poisoned me or kill me *(OMG! Do you see how this is now escalating? It is NOW life or death in his mind; he will accept NOTHING ELSE but for one of you to die; this is straight out of Abuse 101)
> 
> -One thing i am sure of it is you may have someone else is waiting for you to be free and be with him so let him know that he is wasting his time you are staying my wife for ever
> all you can do is cheating with him this you can get away with it but if i know it *you don't know what i can do *(threatening you and any future mate)


----------



## Uptown

Le vieux, this man is very scary. He may kill you and then kill himself too. If I were in your situation, I would choose to tough it out in a shelter rather than live with an unstable man who believes he owns the lower half of my body.


----------



## LVS

yes sisters359 he was clear with his message NO way to think about divorce

and yes turnera thanks for your analysis you showed it right. yes he flipped back to the other mean side even when he was nice i was seeing the mean side hidden in his eyes what he said gave me a shock i never expected to hear what i heard 
He is trying to scare me and put me back under his control but he has so much lack of information and most of what he said BS

Yes uptown that's ridiculous and awful to say my lower half belongs to him
where are his resources from is it from his brother or his psychiatrist or a side of him that he never showed before i can't understand how stupid silly and ugly all what he said

It doesn't matter if i filed for divorce or not he was going to flip back i knew it
BUT what happened is not going to stop me i going to finish what i started

Now he turned his ugly face to my daughter telling her that she is like her mother and he told her that she is an important reason of ruining our relationship me and him and telling her that we turned his summer to a hell and he is going to make our summer a hell as well...blablabla.........
He told her if she is not going to obey him he won't pay for her college he won't get her laptop and he won't get her a car
so any time she wants to go out it needs to be with him agreeing when and where to go with who to go and for how long.
My daughter is so mad she is asking me what to do?

He is building a good controlling relationship with my 12 year old son giving him so much time bringing him what he needs spending time with him and trying to turn him against his sister and me


----------



## LVS

I am at the edges
I can't go back 
I can't stay as I am

What i need to do to move forward scares me and hurt me as well
I know what i should do
I feel the lost and i feel so much fear, so much sadness and so much insecurity

I am fighting the monster (the monster is not only him it's him his family his psychiatrist and the unknown)

What i have is your support my church support and my therapist support what i can get is law and organizations support(how much i can get, still don't know)

It is time for actions anyway i am for that 
My concerns now is how can i work to gain the battle with the least hurt to my kids and me

*What i am going to do*

-First i am going to contact my son in my country and my 22 years old daughter to update them about what is going on

-Update my parents and my brother too

-I left a message to my T to contact me ASAP she needs to report the child abuse that happened in the past 

-I took appointment with his T after he called them and agreed that i can be her patient but yesterday they cancelled my appointment bc she asked that i go to another one (i don't know if he called back and asked that)
anyway i took an appointment with my T the closest one is 1rst July

-I filed for divorce through YMCA i need to wait until the divorce papers are ready to sign them so I can have a copy (should be by Monday)(they supposed to be ready this week but for some mistakes they need to redo them)
Once i have the papers i am going to see an organization for house assistance now with the filing papers they will find me eligible for there program

-Anytime he decides to move to my room i will be moving with my daughter to the other room. I would never stay in one room with him

Any suggestions are welcomed and appreciated
Thanks in advance !!!!


----------



## Affaircare

Le vieux sage~

The ladies here have been giving you commendable advice, and I don't know if I can add to the support and encouragement they have given you. But I want you to know that I am so afraid for you right now. You are not "nuts" nor making a mountain out of a molehill--and Turnera interpreted it exactly as I did. From what I can see, he has directly threatened you with rape and that he will harm you if you try to divorce him. 

If you can, I would suggest a restraining order based on these threats. If you need documentation, there are three people here with experience in domestic violence who can make a statement that we interpreted his words as a threat to rape and physically harm you. Plus you have your own memory. Finally, I'd suggest keeping a daytimer type calendar (maybe in your purse) and any day he makes a statement like that, write it on the calendar. You can submit that as evidence because it is written down documentation of the frequency of his threatening activity.

Finally, here is a link to the Domestic Violence Safety Plan on our website. This will help you with a little checklist of things to prepare and think about to keep yourself safe.


----------



## turnera

The only things I would add are:
Talk to anyone else you know in your city so they are aware of what you're about to do, in case he does anything they'll know to keep an eye on you.

Tell your youngest what's going on. They need to understand what you've learned. Especially your son, as he may balk at leaving his dad. He needs to understand WHY, and he needs to understand it NOW, before something blows up - he won't be able to deal with it if it's in the middle of a big upset.

Pack an emergency bag NOW - one for you, your daughter, and your son, with books, toys, toiletries. Keep it in your car if you have one, or at a neighbor's if you don't. Let your neighbor know what you're doing in case you have to come to them for help in the middle of the night.

Make sure you have money saved somewhere OTHER than your house, so you can get to it in an emergency. He may take your purse away, so have copies of your driver license, insurance card, SS# card, anything else, saved somewhere else.

Let your work know you're about to leave him and he may throw a fit or chase you at work. If your work has security, alert them.

Firm up your plans for where you'll be staying.

Do you have your own bank account? It's easier to set it up if you have a permanent address, so you may want to do it now.


----------



## LVS

Affaircare said:


> Le vieux sage~
> 
> The ladies here have been giving you commendable advice, and I don't know if I can add to the support and encouragement they have given you. But I want you to know that I am so afraid for you right now. You are not "nuts" nor making a mountain out of a molehill--and Turnera interpreted it exactly as I did. From what I can see, he has directly threatened you with rape and that he will harm you if you try to divorce him.


Thank you Affaircare 
the reason why i put more details most the times in my posts just to let who reads it picture the situation as if he/she is with me it's for more reliability of information and also as documentation for me.
And no i am not nuts nor making a mountain of a molehill... I am saying the facts as they happened and sometimes less because not everything i see like body language or facial expressions i can say it in words!

BUT i don't know why i don't feel scared even with what everyone of you said to me i know he has no history of violence except the incident that happened when he hit my daughter and me

I don't want to underestimate things but i don't see him this dangerous person 
At the same time i don't trust him after all what happened i know he might turn at any time if despair to seek vengeance or try to commit suicide even if only to make everyone blame me and this point scares me a lot bc i can't tell when or how or where it could happen and how far he can go to hurt me
But until i see a sign that he is going to become violent i still can stay and have my time to make better plan but also be ready and aware of everything...

What do you think???



Affaircare said:


> If you can, I would suggest a restraining order based on these threats. If you need documentation, there are three people here with experience in domestic violence who can make a statement that we interpreted his words as a threat to rape and physically harm you. Plus you have your own memory. Finally, I'd suggest keeping a daytimer type calendar (maybe in your purse) and any day he makes a statement like that, write it on the calendar. You can submit that as evidence because it is written down documentation of the frequency of his threatening activity.


Now about restraining order i don't know if i do it now or i wait until i am ready to move out or wait until he do something violent???!!! and you said about making statement, in which way this would help, this is something i don't know about it, can you explain please?

I like the idea about day timer type calendar i have everything documented in my threads and in my laptop since turnera and other friends asked me to document everything i can make one more official as you said if you have idea on what the essential points should be written please let me know

I know what he said looks like threats but for his history with me
i can see him as a person who is on;y for words not actions i mean he always say things and promises but never do what he said and maybe bc his escape point when failed is blaming things on others and circumstance not on him so i can see his threats as a type of making me fear him to keep me under his control

so as i said above i could fear him hurting me in case he became despair and hopeless 




Affaircare said:


> Finally, here is a link to the Domestic Violence Safety Plan on our website. This will help you with a little checklist of things to prepare and think about to keep yourself safe.


I went to this link and it's very helpful thank you


----------



## LVS

turnera said:


> The only things I would add are:
> Talk to anyone else you know in your city so they are aware of what you're about to do, in case he does anything they'll know to keep an eye on you...
> 
> ...Pack an emergency bag NOW - one for you, your daughter, and your son, with books, toys, toiletries. Keep it in your car if you have one, or at a neighbor's if you don't. Let your neighbor know what you're doing in case you have to come to them for help in the middle of the night.
> 
> Make sure you have money saved somewhere OTHER than your house, so you can get to it in an emergency. He may take your purse away, so have copies of your driver license, insurance card, SS# card, anything else, saved somewhere else.
> 
> Let your work know you're about to leave him and he may throw a fit or chase you at work. If your work has security, alert them.
> 
> Firm up your plans for where you'll be staying.
> 
> Do you have your own bank account? It's easier to set it up if you have a permanent address, so you may want to do it now.


Those really important points i will do that i have separate money account but in the same bank and as i read yesterday they said it should be in different bank i don't know why.




turnera said:


> Tell your youngest what's going on. They need to understand what you've learned. Especially your son, as he may balk at leaving his dad. He needs to understand WHY, and he needs to understand it NOW, before something blows up - he won't be able to deal with it if it's in the middle of a big upset.


This is an important point too i need to do it and i still don't know how but yes as you said it should be ASAP


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## LVS

Yesterday my T contacted me I told her what happened
she took the needed information to report the child abuse (when he hit my daughter)to the Child protection agencies

She asked me as you did to be prepared and have all legal papers in a safe place and 

She told me if i feel him dangerous i need to move out, if not i can wait until the divorce paper are in my hand

She said i should tell my H in front of his psychiatrist that i filed for divorce not only give it to the Dr on a piece of a paper (but i think if i did i would be now in more danger this way i am giving myself more time what do you think)

She said i should contact my priest and tell him about what he said about sex and religion and my lower half belongs to him...

I called my son and my daughter and said it is over between me and their dad i was hopping to stay together until their brother turn 18 but he didn't let me and i can't handle anymore i told them i am going to write them an email about what is happening...
Still need to contact my parents and brother..
I am also going to talk to my neighbors to be aware of any unusual incident or loud noise or rage.... To call the police and see if in case of emergency they would allow me and/or my kids to go to them even if it is night time.


----------



## turnera

Sounds like you're doing a great job in a bad situation. I wish it was turning out differently. But you never know, this may be his learning experience; you may have helped him in the long run.

I imagine the separate bank is so that he won't be able to find it. If it's in the same bank, he just has to go there and ask them if there's another account in 'y'all's' portfolio and they may not be able to deny him access to it.


----------



## LVS

turnera said:


> Sounds like you're doing a great job in a bad situation. I wish it was turning out differently. But you never know, this may be his learning experience; you may have helped him in the long run.


turnera even if a part of me still don't want divorce and want to spend my life with him and my kids bc it is what i believed all my life and this part is what makes me take more time to decide and act BUT i can't anymore and all what he said and the way he said them hurt me deeply really deeply even i laughed more than you can imagine for his silliness YES turnera *ENOUGH IS ENOUGH*

*It's the most time since i started posting here i feel i have this clear mind and ready to face any situation and everyone*

Even if it turned out differently i have no more desire to be with him where no trust no love no respect....... Something died inside me, i wish i can explain better how i feel.(I think what uptown said about my inner child implies here and i feel so sad bc my inner child gave up and doesn't want to fight no more)

I know it is not a time to evaluate things but i am sure i will cry what i lost and it will be a time for grieving but for sure not now
I am so endured and all my mind and body moving forward no matter what.......

I don't see him as a person who will ever learn anything positive in life.. I feel sorry for him.....
BUT as you said i hope it is his learning experience i hope it will help him just to know how to become a happy person.....


----------



## Uptown

> Something died inside me, i wish i can explain better how i feel.(I think what uptown said about my inner child implies here and i feel so sad bc my inner child gave up and doesn't want to fight no more)


Well, you could have fooled me. It seems to me that your inner child is fighting very well -- for your freedom and self respect and your children -- all the things that matter. I am so proud of you. 

As to the something that died inside, I suspect it was the illusion that you could somehow heal your H and have the marriage you dreamed of. If so, good riddance to it. Like you, Le vieux, I had to let go of some dreams I had carried for many years -- and I am all the better for having let them go.


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## LVS

Hello everyone
and yes uptown this is exactly what is happening i agree with what you said.

Now here what he is doing
I feel so bad
So much lies
In other way in front of my in laws he act the victim bc they know we are having problems 
With my oldest son in my country and my parents he act very happy while talking to them to make them blame me if i leave him while he is so good and so nice

He is calling my parents to talk to them and laugh and speak to them in a very friendly way like he never did before yesterday was the fathers day i am the one who suppose to call my father but he called him without even telling me he talked to them about half an hour (he never initiated a call with them before now this is the third time within two weeks. He use to avoid talking to them and i use always to make excuses for him not talking)
I was in my room when my son knocked the door to ask me if i want to talk to them i said when i want to talk to them i will call them.

I called them today they said they are happy to hear him talking to them but they are surprised too bc he never did that before i said don't believe the appearance why do you think he is doing that? my mom said maybe to make us pressure you to be back to him? I said right and when you asked me to give him another chance that means he is winning against me bc i already gave him the chances but he ruined them.
My mom said who is supporting you there i said myself and my knowledge i am now half lawyer and half psychologist lol plus i have my church and there are organizations for assistance my mom said you should cont on God the first i said they will say i am like the criminal who goes to church to hide her other face i believe in God i count on His blessing but i need what i have to be able at least to defend myself.
My dad said you have your son's wedding next summer so whatever you are doing i don't say stop it i say slow it down. I said i know it is hard but what if by the wedding time my daughter got engaged than you will also say wait until her wedding my life won't stand up for all these things i am finishing what i started. 
My dad said your brother is a monk and he went to you visiting with the spirit of God now you need to listen to God voice maybe he is working now through him calling us and being nice to us
I said if he is working with the spirit of God i would be the first to know bc the spirit of God in me would be communicating with the spirit of God in him but it is not the case.
My dad said we are supporting you with whatever you do i told him that i filed for divorce and i am putting God ahead in all my decisions so if the spirit of God wants us to reunite again this is the right way and i will be the first to know if my H is on the right way but if we ended up with divorce it will be the spirit of God too.


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## turnera

I think you should send your parents - or read it out to them over the phone - what your husband said to you about 'owning' the lower half of your body, and how you will NEVER leave him...ALL OF IT.

They need to hear it, lvs, they do. They all do.


----------



## LVS

They will know turnera i will tell them at the right time just i don't want to lose a weapon i have before i am armed with another one.

They called me from YMCA to sign the papers i went and signed them they said they will be at the court on Thursday
and they might take 2 weeks or less.

I came back to find a paper on my night stand that says 
Don't forget today is your last day of the notice.

*So he is going to move back to my bed room. *

How idiot he is to believe i will be staying in the same room with him after all what he said and did to me

Today i read a saying at the legal advice office i felt it addressed to him. it says:

*People could forget what you said,
and they could forget what you did,
but they would never forget how you made them feel !*

I talked to my youngest son i asked him do you see your dad changed?
he said yes
I said do you think he changed with me he said yes i think you should be back together why don't you?
I said do you think if i told you to do something and you said no but when i told you leave the house than you did what i want is that mean you changed or you are scared he said could be both both

I said do you think the problem with your dad is only rage and anger or disrespect and mistreating he said all of them 

I said so if he is now controlling his anger do you think that means he is treating me right? he said no it is something different 
I said your dad wants to come back to my room against my willing he said no he should not nobody asked him to leave it at the first place 
I said right and is this show love and respect and care for my well being he said no.

I said that's why i decided if he wants to come back to my bedroom i will move to the other bedroom
Now your sister won't be staying with him so do you mind to move to the other room he said he likes his room and he wants to stay in it 
I said if you don't want it's ok i will sleep on the couch but i think you will like it because it is double size of your room and you will have much more room to put your things
take your time and think about it.


----------



## Uptown

> i will tell them at the right time just i don't want to lose a weapon i have before i am armed with another one.


Good thinking, Le vieux. Very good thinking.


----------



## LVS

Guess WHAT? ?  ?

Today I had visitors !!!!  !!!!

Guess WHO? ?  ?  ?

Two POLICE OFFICER (women) !!!  !!!

WOW! What a surprise !!  !!

That's a perfect timing !! LOL

The day he is going to move to my room!

My T reported what happened to the CPS (child protection services) and they reported everything to the Police.

They spoke to everyone home starting with me than my daughter than my son and the last was my husband.
Than they asked me to walk outside with them.
They gave me their business card and they asked me to call them anytime I need to talk to them to ask about anything and in case of emergency to call 911 and to not worry there is no fee for that.

They said they are not going to put him in jail (they said so bc I was worried and told them I don't want to hurt him just I need to live in peace) and they mentioned something he said to them about him loosing his job losing his wife and his health taking so much medication what made his life so hard but not an excuse for what he did
So they are going to press charges on him. They need first to discuss the problem with someone else to see how much charges they are going to press on him.

He thought that I called them but I asked them to let him know that nobody from the house called them and that's what they did but they told me he seemed not believing what we said.


----------



## LVS

After the Police left he stayed cool all what he asked me "When your daughter is going to move her clothes?" I said now just empty your closet he went to empty it than I asked my son to emty his closet too it is at this time he knew I am moving to the other room but he didn't give any reaction

I know it is hard for me to move to that room 1/2 size of mine and where I am spending most my free time 
BUT even if it is like a prison I can smell the freedom in it. lol


----------



## turnera

Best of luck.

Just realize that he is now spending every waking moment thinking about you and what he is losing. You smell freedom, but he smells something more sinister.


----------



## turnera

lvs, are you all right?


----------



## turnera

lvs, please let us know if you're all right.


----------



## turnera

lvs, are you ok?


----------



## Affaircare




----------



## turnera

lvs, please update us. We are very worried!


----------



## turnera

Does anyone have personal info on lvs so we can check on her? I wish I would have asked her for it before.


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## LVS

OMG! you made me cry
i am sorry and really i appreciate your concerns and prayers turnera and Affaircare i didn't open my account today i was at work i left home by 10 am till now and at morning i was still moving my staff from my room to my kids room

one more time i am so sorry and thank you
You really touched my heart


----------



## turnera

Thank God! I'm so glad you're ok.


----------



## LVS

Well from my little room or as i call it my box i am going to update you.
I talked to my neighbors and told them about the situation they gave me their phone number and they are ready to help me any time i need even if it is midnight and they promise at anytime they hear unusual noise or rage they are going to call the police.

At home everything it is like if we are in a cold war and he is back not talking to me if he needs anything he write it on a piece of paper

The last thing he said was when he cut his silence yesterday before i leave to work he gave me a sheet of paper and said look at this number even you can throw it bc it is useless now but you can check with your HR at work why i called them last week i didn't take it and i said i don't care than i left.

Now i need to share with you how i am feeling
i am not feeling well i am trying to not cry, i really need that but i am refusing it especially in front of my daughter. i feel so stressed but acting cool everywhere.

From the other side i feel lost am i hard on him? am i bad by blocking every try to reconciliation from his side? Am i causing him in anyway acting bad?
Am i working right?
i don't want to switch from the victim role to the criminal one?
why i feel guilty bc i filed for divorce?
Lot of questions stressing me more than the situation that i am living

Some insights please !!

turnera is there anyway to send you PM?


----------



## LVS

Yesterday the CPS came to my house while i was at work they asked my kids and my H about the incident of violence.... i don't know what they talked to him but they left their number for me to call them 
i did nobody answered i left a voice message but they still didn't return my call.


----------



## turnera

lvs, I enabled PM, so see if it works.

As for feeling guilty, you are not asking _that much_ from him. None of us knows whether he is truly BPD or abusive. But YOU know that he makes you unhappy, and has not changed when you needed him to. That is enough to leave him for.

As for the future? If he truly wants his family back, there is a really easy fix for him: go to counseling. Go to counseling for at least a year, and let the counselor work with YOU so that YOU feel safe with him.

Is his marriage and family not worth him seeing a psychologist for a a year, so he can have the rest of his life with you all? That is HIS choice. He can choose to do that for you.

If he chooses not to, then everything is on HIS head.

You can always remarry after you divorce, if this truly is the turning moment in his life and he gets help for what has caused you so much misery over the years. HE has been happy all this time; you have not. Isn't it about time that he do something to get YOU happy for a change?

When's your next therapy appointment?


----------



## LVS

I never saw him happy in our life he is a person who always see the empty part of a full glass, how can he ever be happy?
He never see what he has until he lose it than he start crying the lost
He is a negative person full of desperation anger and dissatisfaction 
He is always crying the past not enjoying the present and not dreaming or hopping for a bright future 
Even if he wasn't abusive he is an unhappy person who doesn't know how to live or how to enjoy life.

As much as he tries to claim that he wants to be happy and enjoy life, HE WON'T. HAPPINESS is something that needs to come from his inside. 

turnera when you said we can remarry i felt something tearing my heart i want that as much as i don't want it sorry if i am confusing you

What i am sure of is with him i am a dead person.
I don't want to be buried alive......

I don't know what the future hides for us but i really wish him to learn how to be a happy person no matter what......


----------



## turnera

I so understand. I kept track one day of the negative things my husband said or did, and it was well over 30 things. In 10-15 hours. Basically everything that came out of his mouth was a put-down of something or someone.

You can't change what one believes, I guess.

I just want to be able to wake up and not wonder what's going to be griped about or ruined today, ya know? I go to work to escape. Every Monday, after a weekend with him, I take myself out to lunch, just to decompress. He's not a mean person, nor a bad one. He is _just negative_. And it drains the living soul out of me.

I so get it.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> ...Basically everything that came out of his mouth was a put-down of something or someone...
> ...I guess.
> I just want to be able to wake up and not wonder what's going to be griped about or ruined today...
> ... it drains the living soul out of me....


Exactly ....
This was my daily life beside the abuse...
you said it
it drains the living soul out of me... !!!!
Are you going to spend the rest of your life with him or you are still saving money to leave ? what is your goal now?
(you asked me about my T appointment it is July 1rst)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I don't know what I'll do. I'm too far away from being able to afford to leave to think about it now.


----------



## LVS

This is from an old post turnera



Le vieux sage said:


> ...turnera you asked me if I have a friend who I can trust the answer is NO
> *I have a friend I talk to him over the phone he is in Canada* it is not enough I know and
> I have one close friend but I can't trust her for one reason just because she is my H brother's wife......


This friend is from my country and i met him through the internet about 3 years ago
He is married. We are just friends, he knows my story and i like so much his mind. 
It is very important for me when i am confused to hear his opinion and i feel comfortable with him bc #1 he is a man(bc i need a man opinion) and #2 he is from my country and #3 he has the same religion as i do.

Guess what happened ?

Yesterday my friend called me to tell me that my H called him from a private number
They had a conversation and he was asking him how he knows me and if he plan to come to united states or went recently to my country, (i went to my country last summer) and if he is married.....He was talking in a friendly way and playing smart to get more answers and my friend answered all his questions (my H already knows most of them from me)
Than my friend had to hang up with him bc he had something to do.

I already told my H that i have him as a friend on the internet but i didn't told him we started the phone calls, #1 i didn't feel i have to for the bad relationship #2 to avoid being questioned all the time 
Anyway he didn't like the thought of me being friend of another man that's what he told me
Well he didn't like the only one close friend i had in my country too and he hurt her many times to make her leave me and she didn't she was my refuge when everything use to darken my life and so many times she asked me to leave him and be happy. 
He was so relieved when i came USA bc he finally got his wife back and he separate me from my best friend. He mentioned that many times.

Back to my man friend, my H always was checking the phone bills and never asked me about his number. He was thinking it is my brother number bc my bro lives in Canada. And that was fine with me.
But now i have separate phone account so what is the main reason to contact him? 

Is it jealousy and doubting every number i was on continuous contact with?
Is it to find something to threaten me or as he said one day that he is collecting evidence to use them in the court (lol) or there is other unknown reason?

By the way, he is using the silent treatment and when i came back from work he didn't say anything.

Any suggestions ???


----------



## turnera

He's still clutching at straws. In his mind, he will NOT lose you; he just has to figure out what steps to take to KEEP you there. He is determined to find the one thing that will work.

If I had to guess, his next step will be to threaten to you that he will call your friend's wife and convince her you are having an affair with him. If you don't stay, he will ruin your friend's marriage. I would call him and warn him to tell his wife _right now_, so nothing happens.

Or else he'll find someone he can coerce or pay to say you're cheating on him, so he can hold that over your head to make you stay. At this point, he doesn't care if you stay because you want to - he just wants you to stay. And if it takes hurting you physically so you can't leave or work, he'll do it. If it takes ruining your relationship with your family so you can never see them again, he'll do it. If it takes threatening your kids, he'll do it.

All he cares about now is winning. And please remember that you see peace and freedom and happiness ahead of you. All he sees is anger, despair, fury...you leaving him is likely consuming him 24/7. Please don't forget that.


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## LVS

I can feel all he cares about is winning. I can see the anger and hatred 
I don't know what he is willing to do
He doesn't have my friend's home phone number

When he called him he asked to talk to my brother so i don't know if it was a trick bc as i remember he has my brother phone number


By the way my brother in vacation in my country i called him right before he left and told him about the whole situation and my H calling my parents and that i filed for divorce...
i felt he was unhappy about what he heard
but he didn't comment he said when he will be home we will talk so the first week he will be busy with his monastery than he will see go to my parents house and i will be talking to him but i won't change what i started no matter what...
I am going to tell him what you told me that we can remarry......
(You can always remarry after you divorce, if this truly is the turning moment in his life and he gets help for what has caused you so much misery over the years.)


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## turnera

I think that's the best thing you can tell him. That you're not throwing him away altogether, you just can't accept life with him in it as he is today.


----------



## FEEDUP

:slap::slap:


Le vieux sage said:


> Do you think my story is not worthy for advice or reply ?????????
> I am a stranger in a new country with no friends no one to lean on the only people close to me are my husband's family
> I am a middle eastern person confused between my culture and the way i was raised and the way i should live as a person to take care of myself !!!!!!!!!! should i kick my culture my family my believes and 28 years of marriage to take care of myself???!! If i did so will i regret that one day?????
> Confused between what is better for my kids divorce or unhealthy marriage? what will shatter them more ????!!!
> As Catholic person will i be doing the right thing?? ............


----------



## LVS

FEEDUP said:


> :slap::slap:



:iagree:


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## LVS

With his silent treatment i can't guess what is his next move 
Is he going to hurt me?
Is he going to get over this?
Is he going to leave?
Is he planning to take my son?
Is he going to blow up soon?.....
The time is going so slow waiting the divorce papers and even i don't know if i really want them to come fast
i am scared of so many thoughts



turnera said:


> All he cares about now is winning. And please remember that you see peace and freedom and happiness ahead of you. All he sees is anger, despair, fury...you leaving him is likely consuming him 24/7. Please don't forget that.


turnera why you said please remember and don't forget that ?
In what meaning?


----------



## turnera

I mean that you are feeling more and more relieved, as you are getting closer and closer to getting what you want.

HE is getting more and more upset, as he tries everything he can think of - calling people, going through the cycles of abuse to see what will work this time, since it's always worked before, and then getting more flustered because it's NOT working - and he knows that you plan to leave him. So he is getting more and more consumed with the fact that he's losing what he wants.

Look at it this way. Say you separated, but he took you to court and in some crazy way, they decided you had to move back in with him, on August 1. You DREAD that day - it represents the ruin on your life. But you have no choice, no control over the situation. Would you just say 'oh well' and go on your daily business? No. You would start getting consumed with the fact that you're about to lose what you want - your freedom. You would start to obsess about the fact that that horrible day, when you lose everything, is getting closer and closer and there's not a thing you can do about it.

The difference is that you are not BPD or abusive. You would seek normal healthy ways to fight it. He is just as likely to seek BPD or abusive ways to fight it.

So, as he gets closer and closer to losing his 'world' - you and his son - he will get more desparate.

That is the exact reason experts advise that wives of abusive men do NOT give warning, but just leave. It's a shock for him, yes, and I'm sure you feel bad about that, but if there is even a chance that he will physically, maybe even permanently, harm you or your daughter, isn't it worth 'seeming' mean? He will never understand anyway; leaving slowly will not get him to understand and say 'Oh, now I get it, go ahead, you deserve it.'


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## LVS

turnera said:


> ...That is the exact reason experts advise that wives of abusive men do NOT give warning, but just leave. It's a shock for him, yes, and I'm sure you feel bad about that, but if there is even a chance that he will physically, maybe even permanently, harm you or your daughter, isn't it worth 'seeming' mean? He will never understand anyway; leaving slowly will not get him to understand and say 'Oh, now I get it, go ahead, you deserve it.'


turnera that was the best way to explain the situation thank you.
Which one is better for him leave him without notifying him at least to be emotionally prepared to the new life
or get divorced and stay with him under the same roof

The fact that we are from another country makes me not able to leave and disappear permanently of his life so i might be in more danger if i leave him without warning 
does it make sense or i am fooling myself


----------



## turnera

I do understand. Only you can know what's right in your situation. If he sees that the police are now aware of what he did, you may be safe enough.


----------



## LVS

Today my friend sent me a message to tell me that my H called him about 6 times during the day but he wasn't able to answer

I sent him back a message to tell him that my H didn't ask me anything and he is using the silent treatment since our last conversation before he moved back to his room.

I told my friend to do whatever he feels he wants to, so i said if he wants i don't mind him to return the call to my H but he didn't

What do you think is it better to return the call or is it better to ignore it ?
My anger says to ignore it but i think this will make him doubt more 
Do you think I should talk to my H about that or this will weaken my position and make him also doubt more OMG i feel lost

I am so worried i don't want to lose this friend and at the same time i don't want to ruin his life

Any advice please


----------



## turnera

Normally I would tell your husband to leave your friend alone as he has done nothing but be a friend. Tell him that you understand how he would be concerned, but nothing is going on. But with a BPD or abuser, he will NOT accept that and will in fact believe that that is proof that you are cheating. He will vilify your friend and maybe even try to harm him; for sure, he will try to use it in court against you and paint you as a harlot. I was going to tell you when you first brought up this friend that you should stop all contact with him for now. I wish I had. You need to back away from him; tell him that you can be friends again, later, but for now you need to concentrate on the task at hand. It can get out of control if you don't.


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## LVS

Wow! This is the only friend who i am in contact with and who helped me get over the darkest situation when i was having suicide ideation when i was hopeless and when i was desperate before i found this forum.

This means he won finally to separate me of my friend !!!!

Ok let's say i stopped talking to him what will this help me?

How can my H harm him if he is in Canada ?

If i stopped talking to him what does this proof? He will still say b/c i was caught i stopped talking to him or b/c i am scared or.....

Now he can't access my phone account and as you said he will still believe i was cheating and even if he doesn't believe he will still use it against me 

Ok if he used it in court what will this lead to?? sorry if i seem asking stupid questions
(all my knowledge about USA law i learned it while reading since we started our separation i have no one close to me got divorced or went to the court)

I feel so bad !!! 

Maybe if i was a harlot i would be more lucky in my marriage lol


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## turnera

I didn't say to give UP your friend. I said to stop contacting him for NOW. Until you are divorced. It doesn't look good, anyway, for you to be friends with a married man while you have marriage issues. 

It will help you because your husband WILL bring up this friend in a court case and make you look like an adulteress. And then he will fight to prove you immoral and give HIM custody of his kids. He will lie, and say he hit you and your daughter because he found out you were cheating; half the jury would buy that and blame YOU. Even I would consider that you are at least having an emotional affair with this man. A judge who may not buy that your husband is abusive will, as well.

If you can prove you have not contacted this man from here on out, you have a better chance of not being put under scrutiny in a trial.


----------



## LVS

It is only friendship
and our calls are not everyday and text messages are very limited

It could have other path for the way it started but i really needed a friend and i limited my relation with him to be only friendship
What made me encourage it is b/c he is so far no way to meet him and there was no risk that anything wrong would happen 

But unfortunately you have right about what might happened


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## LVS

The thing is i am not chatting with anyone online i was the first time i came to USA chatting with many people but it was just to make time go fast when i was alone no job no friends no life nothing
I met him online too and we started chatting and i show his picture to my H and he knew that he is a friend 
we never discussed this thing b/c we were fighting most the time and we had more important things to talk about and we weren't 
My relation with this person started to take other path but i stopped it and limited to a friendship i am proud of this friend and respect him as much as he does nothing more i have no problem to meet his wife and be her friend too

turnera I really understand your view point but i am writing that to clarify things

Now what is happening is i am spending most my free time on the internet and he never knew what i am doing 
He accused me many times that i am with people chatting but i ignored what he said (i am not chatting at all even with my close friends and family it has being long long time i stopped chatting)

i don't know now if he will be connecting my relation with this person with my time spent on the internet

I will talk to my friend today and see what we will do


----------



## LVS

My friend called me today he said my H called him more than 20 times yesterday and he left him 2 voice messages
the 1rst saying that he needs to talk to him b/c he think that our relationship is more than what he said and my H asked him to return his call back and that my friend can get his number from me( he was calling as unknown caller) the 2nd he said that it is very important to talk to him and he will call back after 10 min
My friend was angry b/c smy H talked to him in a rude and disrespectful way i said why you didn't answer him he said i wish i was able to answer but it was busy day. He asked me to give him my H phone number but i refused (i should not give him my H number he should give it when he called) Am I wrong with that?

turnera i talked today to people at work even my supervisor said you have right to have friends and he is in other country and you are talking over the phone your H can't do anything to hurt you legally you are in CA

I would never disagree with you about leaving my friend if i am involved with him in anything wrong 
And even if at the court they are going to check the phone bills he only calls me on my work days on my way to work so nothing wrong with that
but i will consider your view point and i will get legal advice about that (of course my son comes first i would leave anything to not lose him)


----------



## LVS

turnera said:


> ...Let your work know you're about to leave him and he may throw a fit or chase you at work. If your work has security, alert them...


turnera i didn't listen to you b/c felt embarrassed bringing my problems to work but here what happened today 

Duty Officers came and told me that my H was driving his car inside the facility in a suspicious way even everybody at the administration building including the manager saw him hiding his car
Than D.O. went to talk to him and he said that his wife works here they asked him to tell them who is his wife or they are going to call the police so he told them but asked them not to tell me and he said he is following me to make sure i am at work and that he is suspecting i am cheating on him and meeting someone before or after work b/c i left early today to work. He asked them about the work time and they told him today my schedule is early 

They came and told me what happened and asked me not to tell him that i knew b/c he requested to not let me know to avoid having problems at home 
I told them i am not going to tell him i am going to tell the police and i told them we are separated under the same roof and that i filed for divorce 

i feel horrible i don't know what to do i feel unsecured and scared. What is next? 
hope he won't try to hurt me.
Today my daughter is spending the night in her friend house. i don't know if i will be able to sleep
I am going to lock my door

Any advice !!!!!!!


----------



## Affaircare

LVS~

As you know, Turnera and Uptown have been your major helpers here, but I do have a few suggestions for you tonight. 

#1--Just so you can rest a little easy, we know that you have a person who has been an actual respectful associate...not someone you are having an emotional affair with. We get that. EA means you hide it from your husband, don't let him see emails or messages, have a crush on the guy, and send 3000 texts or spend hours on the phone every day, sneaking off to meet him. FRIEND means you tell your husband, have let him see the messages, aren't attracted to him, and don't text or spend hours on the phone...just say hello now and then. So don't worry. We don't think the wrong thing or judge you for having one person who has been somewhat nice to you. 

#2--Do you remember the Safety Plan I had you print off? If not, here's another link: Safety Plan If you haven't done it already, you may want to get that little emergency kit together ASAP!!

#3--If I were you I would keep a cell phone with you at all times tonight and lock your door. Don't open it no matter what he says (even if he cries). And if he breaks down the door, call 911. With a record of violence against your daughter already, they will arrest him but you may need to do that to protect yourself. 

#4--He is starting to get desperate and scary. You may want to think about a restraining order. But for tonight, lock the door and have your Safety Plan emergency bag ready if you can. After this, keep it in your trunk at all times in case you have to leave very quickly!









Praying for your safety tonight!


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## LVS

Thank you Affaircare thanks for your really supportive post and thanks for your prayers 
i checked to see if you were online when i posted but you weren't Thanks b/c you are there now you made me feel relieved 

It's almost 2 am i can't close my eyes

I locked my door i have my phone with me all the time
my son is sleeping in the other room so he won't break the door(hopefully) till now i felt him checking if the door is locked but he didn't say anything

I just hang up the phone, my Brother called me from my country 

I told him everything happening and i told him i am going to tell my parents b/c my H might call them and tell them things in his way

My brother said he already called them and told them about a phone number and OM.. my parents said they know me well and they trust me and the problems that we are going through are his fault...
My brother asked me to call my parents and they will tell me details..
I asked him to call them now and tell them what happened... 
to make them feel better he said don't worry they didn't believe him
I am glad that i already told them to expect bad things of him so they weren't shocked 
but i am shocked b/c i didn't believe he will do that . even everyone told me that especially turnera and even i read about it but didn't believe he would do that


----------



## turnera

lvs, I hope you didn't misunderstand me. I don't think you are having an EA. I think it can LOOK like you are having an EA. I think that for now you should reconsider contacting him more than necessary, because your husband may figure out a way to hang this ALL on you as a cheater - as he is obviously already doing - and then guilt you into staying with him. He may threaten your friend's wife or kids; he may threaten him; he may threaten to get him fired. Who knows what he may do? I just think you should tell your friend that you'll be in touch later, but not now.

I think that your husband is getting so utterly desperate - just like we told you he would - that he is clutching at every single straw he sees blowing in the wind, even if it's just a tiny wisp of a hair; he is THAT desperate. He is reaching his boiling point. He is losing control. THAT is when abusers get dangerous - when they realize they have lost control. THAT is when they decide they will do ANYTHING to regain it - even KILL you.

I'm not saying he will. I'm saying there is a chance. If you were there alone, I would tell you do what you feel like doing. But you have children there. And you have a daughter who he has already hurt (and it's very common for abusers to hate women in general and thus transfer his hatred for you onto HER). It's very common for violent abusers to kill or maim you just to keep you from leaving. Makes no sense to us, but to THEM, they have regained control, no matter what the outcome. Even if he had to go to prison, in his mind (possibly), he would have 'won' because he kept you from leaving him.

Will he do this? Who knows. But you have children to protect. Now is not the time to feel bad for him. You can feel bad for him from a safehouse.

Does your work have a personnel person to whom you can go about such things?


----------



## LVS

I just woke up 
I fell asleep about 330
I just want to let you know i am ok 
I woke up early b/c i have an appointment with my T i will tell her everything and i will reply when i am back

One more thing to add when i came back yesterday i found out he was in my room trying to access my laptop he left when i walked in i knew that b/c he didn't know how to turn it off lol
But also he couldn't access it b/c i have a password.


----------



## LVS

I am grateful for all the support and advice you all are giving to me. Understanding my situation and believing my honesty means a lot to me.

About my friend i am lucky that he is so far away my H can't reach him in person or anyone of his family my T said it won't hurt my case for custody people cheat all time and get custody and what i am doing is not wrong and she said in CA what matters only if you are prostitute on the street or if you are using drugs (even people at work who knew i filed for divorce they ask me if i have BF or i moved to live with a BF they also encourage me to have one. that's how it works here lol)
I know it is not me to do that even i need someone to support me but it is not me plus i know i need to be by myself for a while to not fall down to a person of the same kind and foremost the well being of my kids is number one

About not contacting my friend i would do that for him but i don't think my H will believe me if i said i stopped contacting him b/c i have now separate phone account and i don't want to show him my bills (should I ?? ) I believe i have to if we are working to fix things not to divorce so if i stopped talking to my friend he might take it like gaining more control or also proof to his view point that i was having affair
I don't know i am confused!!! Sorry for that


My T told i should let my H know that i know about everything he is doing and that it doesn't help him to keep doing that... But when i told her he is using the silent treatment she said forget about it. It won't work if you talked to him.
She encouraged me to keep doing what i am doing and to start going at least to the gym. I should not stay all the time in my room which i know well but i don't feel any will to do anything i don't have to do it.

turnera what do you mean with personnel person?


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## turnera

Is there someone who is like a counselor at work, who helps employees with personal problems? I ask because if you can show that you are taking all these steps to make sure you're doing the right thing, it's one more step to prove in court that you have exhausted all options and aren't being spiteful. Plus, if they are aware of how he's treating you, if something happens at your work, it will be on record that he's becoming unstable.

I get it, that you feel like you need your friend right now. And if you have to stay in touch, you have to stay in touch. But I'm looking at it from your husband's point of view. Like I said before, you're feeling like you're almost free; HE is likely spending EVERY WAKING MOMENT thinking about you and you leaving him. It is likely consuming him. When someone becomes that obsessed, you can never underestimate the lengths to which he will go. I'm serious.

We had friends on our street. The guy was a total jerk. She ended up having an affair when traveling to New York for work. He found out. He hopped on a plane and went and found him and beat him so badly he was in a hospital for a MONTH! And kicked her out of the house. About a month after that, he was bragging about it to us, and then bragged that the guy was getting ready to be released from the hospital the next week, and he was going to fly up there AGAIN, and beat him senseless AGAIN! And this was a normal guy, great job, all American, you never would have guessed he'd go to that length, to 'win.'

THAT is why I feel like you should take extra steps to insure that your husband can't misconstrue your friendship any more than he already has. Contact is contact, and he will find a way to find out. Trust me. If you value your friend, hold off for now. Write him letters if you have to, but keep the electronic communication to a minimum, for HIS and his family's sake. I'm not saying to stop just so you can SAY you stopped. I'm saying it because I expect by now your husband has vilified this friend (as abusers do) and has rewritten your history so much that this friend is the one who brainwashed you and convinced you to leave him. And any tiny little crumb of proof that you ARE contacting him, should your husband find it, will solidify in his mind JUSTIFICATION for going and finding the guy and making his life hell. Again, not saying he will, but he might. Do you want to be responsible for that? When you can just hold off for another month or however long until you move out?


----------



## LVS

that make sense turnera
but how he will know if i am still talking to him on phone or not 
i mean if i said i stopped he won't believe and if i kept talking to him how he will know if i have separate phone account..



turnera said:


> I'm saying it because I expect by now your husband has vilified this friend (as abusers do) and has rewritten your history so much that this friend is the one who brainwashed you and convinced you to leave him...


You have absolutely right about that.. He already did that to my friend (woman) in my country she was so close to me and he accused her for everything changed in me and for anytime i disagreed with him or if i asked for any of my rights and he hurt her several times but she didn't walk away...

(no we don't have personnel person at work but i am going to ask for the incident report made about what happened and i will keep it with my documents)


----------



## LVS

Today at my work they notify the police about what happened yesterday, and the Sheriff came and questioned me about my life if i am scared or if i feel my life is threatened i was honest and i said i am so scared not b/c of what happened but b/c of what is going to happen next b/c things are escalating very fast i told him what happened last week and that the police came to my house.
He said he is going to call my H and warn him to not do that again but also he said i can stop him if he did that again by doing a restraining order and he said i will be getting a police report by mail within a week....


----------



## turnera

So...do you have a place that you're getting ready to move to or not? What are you planning on happening when he receives the divorce papers?


----------



## LVS

I feel lost i can't think clearly
I don't know what to expect
I am scared of what is coming next
Right now i still don't have any plan

I still don't know if i move out or i stay
His silent treatment makes me so confused and 
not knowing what he is planning for
I don't see him as a criminal
but as angry and desperate and this is also scary
I don't know if what he is doing b/c he lost hope or b/c he is trying to find something to put the blame one more time away from himself

You are offering a great assistance for me
the problem is in me i am unable to take this huge step
b/c the consequences still unknown for me
but also everyone is saying the same thing to me even my co-workers
serving him the papers and staying under the same roof is insane too
I am in a very critical situation i should decide 

Please help me!!!!


----------



## turnera

Go to Google and look up Women's Shelters in your city. Print out their addresses and map them. When you get off work, go to visit one. Just go inside, ask the lady at the front desk for help, and someone will talk to you and help you figure out your options. 

This is what she DOES for a living. LET her help you.


----------



## Uptown

Le vieux, I agree that you and your child are far safer in the shelter -- the immediate objective is to stay alive and unharmed. You can move to a home when it is safe. Your H is totally unpredictable. TOTALLY unpredictable. You and your daughter could not be less safe if you were standing in the middle of a freeway.


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## LVS

I can't go to a shelter
I just called the crisis line and the woman who answered me said i can't keep my job if i am in a shelter b/c 
1rst they have classes i should participate in them
2nd b/c he knows my job address so he would follow me and know where is the shelter located and this is unsafe

she asked me to get restraining order before serving him with divorce
With DVTRO he moves out or i move out and he can't get closer than 100 yards of me

So i am now trying to get some rest maybe i will be able to decide what i know i should do and what everyone and you are asking me to do. TO LEAVE...

Any suggestions?????


----------



## turnera

By all means, DO get as much rest as you need. 

Have you tried talking to him since that last episode, to let him know that you WILL be divorcing him, and you hope he can come to accept it? Do it in a safe place, in front of other people. This may - may - help him come to grips with what is about to happen.

You may consider asking him to go to a mediator or counselor with you, one that you pick, who will help you talk to him to accept the divorce.

lvs, I'm not trying to be rude, but what exactly did you think was going to happen when he got served? Did you think he would just go "Oh, ok, I guess that's it, let me pack my bags"? I thought you had been preparing a place to go all this time.


----------



## LVS

It seems i am going to lose my oldest kids support 
My son called me yesterday to blame me why i didn't go to my in-laws for my H's birthday
He said it is not any day it is a special day I said you are saying so b/c you don't know how many special days he made me cry in my whole life.
I gave him some examples....
He said so now you blew up you should not let things bottle up and than end it by divorce stop acting like a child now you woke up after about 30 years of marriage.......

In my son's mind and i can't blame him b/c that's how he lived that it's ok if the woman has less rights or being treated bad the family above everything
He said are you now americanized and forgot about your religion and values that you raised us on
I gave him ex of women in my country who left their Hs but he said look to the other women who kept their family together
Both of you don't think to come back here if you will be divorced and i am not going to get married....
His voice and tone hurt me my son is blaming me for what i am doing and said also that we have to act like adults and solve our problems to keep the family

He said this is his last call to me he will talk to his dad to and than he will decide what he is going to do....


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## LVS

turnera said:


> By all means, DO get as much rest as you need.
> 
> Have you tried talking to him since that last episode, to let him know that you WILL be divorcing him, and you hope he can come to accept it? Do it in a safe place, in front of other people. This may - may - help him come to grips with what is about to happen.
> 
> You may consider asking him to go to a mediator or counselor with you, one that you pick, who will help you talk to him to accept the divorce.
> 
> lvs, I'm not trying to be rude, but what exactly did you think was going to happen when he got served? Did you think he would just go "Oh, ok, I guess that's it, let me pack my bags"? I thought you had been preparing a place to go all this time.


No turnera i din't talk to him he knows i am planning to divorce him but not that i filed and once he knows i did he won't admit going to any counselor and there no one that we both know can serve as mediator

turnera when i get back the divorce papers i need to find any person over 18 to serve him but also i can keep the papers with me the needed time to be ready to serve them in a safe way.


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## turnera

Sounds good.

lvs, don't worry about your son. Your H is working double time to get him on his side. PLUS, he IS his father's son, and he will likely turn out just like him, so you can't expect him to see you any differently. All you can do is maintain your integrity and know that you are preserving your life. He may come around, you never know. But you have to take care of yourself.


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## LVS

One more friend called me to tell me that my H called him and left voice message for him to call back 
still one he didn't call yet(he is calling my contacts with whom i have more contacts than the others.

When i came back home yesterday i found on my bed a paper from him that said that he is not blind and that i am a B. And he said here is some hints and he wrote the two names of my friends and other name from my country that means all who are close to me and he said one more hint in the other page and there was a copy of a post card all the employees in my work received it as caregivers i was hanging it in my room. so he thought it is from OM (the words in it could be twisted)
it talks about the human touch "...The touch of your hand and mine Which means far more to the fainting heart than shelter and bread and wine......" He ended his letter by saying what you see is the beginning there will be more and more and more...

That's sad i want to talk to him do you think it will work or he will also think i am afraid of him i think in his mind he believes i am leaving him for someone else anyway he was always accusing me of that every time i argue with him.

One nice thing of what happened at work that so many coworkers showed support and empathy some gave their phone numbers in case i need anything.


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## LVS

My daughter just told me that he said he is willing to send her to another county to a college there and he told her it is not to separate her from her boyfriend but b/c there is so much things are going to happen between him and me so it is better that she won't be in the middle of things mmmm (ok let's say this is right what about my little son ?)


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## LVS

something to add my daughter told me now that he said i am having a lover since long time and that he doesn't want to talk more bad things about her mom

By the way Saturday i was at work when my daughter called me she was having health problems i asked her to tell her dad she refused He was home i hang up with her and called him he took her to the emergency the doctor said she has a lot of tension when he asked her if she has stress in her life my H said it is b/c of me* (while reading back i felt i need to clear here; My H said it is b/c of him and that he was hard on her)*coming back home he changed his way with her talking nicely today he bought her a laptop and he is trying now to turn her to his side...


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## Uptown

> i want to talk to him do you think it will work or he will also think i am afraid of him i think in his mind he believes i am leaving him for someone else anyway


With such an unstable man, it does not much matter what he thinks or agrees to. Everything goes out the window in a day or two, as though you had no discussion at all. Yet, if you show any weakness or flaw, he will remember that forever and try to use it against you when you are down. But, of course, you know this first hand.


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## turnera

lvs, the only thing you need to be doing right now is lining up a place for you, your daughter, and your son to live and getting LEGAL protection. He is going to try to keep you from taking your son. I don't know what he has up his sleeve, but I guarantee he has something. 

Remember what I told you. He is spending every waking minute obsessing about you leaving. EVERY WAKING MOMENT. He is CONSUMED with stopping you. This is getting dangerous. You read Why Does He Do That?, right? Go back and reread it and learn how he's going to act. He is getting dangerous and he is NOT the husband you had before.

Why? Because before, you did what he wanted. So he could be magnanimous, he could be 'nice' to you as long as you do what he wants.

Now that you are rebelling, the meanness, the danger, the crazy obsessive is starting to come out. Stalking you at work, going through all your personal stuff, studying EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF PAPER you have at home to find PROOF of you cheating - because it CAN'T be HIM that is causing this.

This is getting CREEPY. And SCARY.

PLEASE don't underestimate what he is capable of.

I truly don't think you HAVE another week with him without him doing something drastic.

For God's sake, he TOLD your daughter that she has to be out of the way because of what he is about to do to you!

Why is he sending her away? Because SHE is the ONLY person who supports you. He is removing your support system.

PLEASE get a restraining order and a legal way to get him out of your house.


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## LVS

Yes uptown he is unstable unpredictable and i am scared but i am not letting him feel me weak even if i have to seem mean.


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## LVS

I read the book turnera and i know everything i read i am seeing it that's why i am scared
I told my daughter i need to find another house these couple days and get a restraining order
even if he is not going to hurt me the insecure and unstable situation is bringing me down i can't handle anymore
My daughter said wherever i go she will go with me (i feel bad he is now promising her for so many things and if i leave now she won't be able to do what she needs to do b/c he would be punishing her
she said he is going to send her to a university instead of college and that's better b/c she has a 4 GPA)

As you said turnera she is my support i need her with me but
i don't want her to lose his support that she needs now
I don't know if i can handle until she leaves and move out

Tomorrow i will get the packet for the restraining order and ask information about it at the same time i will keep looking for a house to be ready in case of emergency


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## Brewster 59

Le vieux sage said:


> My friend called me today he said my H called him more than 20 times yesterday and he left him 2 voice messages
> the 1rst saying that he needs to talk to him b/c he think that our relationship is more than what he said and my H asked him to return his call back and that my friend can get his number from me( he was calling as unknown caller) the 2nd he said that it is very important to talk to him and he will call back after 10 min
> My friend was angry b/c smy H talked to him in a rude and disrespectful way i said why you didn't answer him he said i wish i was able to answer but it was busy day. He asked me to give him my H phone number but i refused (i should not give him my H number he should give it when he called) Am I wrong with that?
> 
> turnera i talked today to people at work even my supervisor said you have right to have friends and he is in other country and you are talking over the phone your H can't do anything to hurt you legally you are in CA
> 
> I would never disagree with you about leaving my friend if i am involved with him in anything wrong
> And even if at the court they are going to check the phone bills he only calls me on my work days on my way to work so nothing wrong with that
> but i will consider your view point and i will get legal advice about that (of course my son comes first i would leave anything to not lose him)


Just so you know CA is a no fault divorce state, the courts dont care why you are getting divorced and really dont care if you were having an affair. The courts will care if abuse was involved because of the children and if you prove abuse was involved he may be limited to supervised visits with the kids.


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## LVS

Brewster 59 said:


> Just so you know CA is a no fault divorce state, the courts dont care why you are getting divorced and really dont care if you were having an affair. The courts will care if abuse was involved because of the children and if you prove abuse was involved he may be limited to supervised visits with the kids.


Thank you Brewster 59 that's what also my co workers told me
but even what he is doing will destroy my reputation here and in my country and this is really hard especially there where people know each other and the roomers spread much easier it is hard on me on my kids and my parents it is really bad i would never do the same to him 

Good to get advice from someone who knows about CA law 
Thanks for your time to read in my post


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## Brewster 59

Le vieux sage said:


> Thank you Brewster 59 that's what also my co workers told me
> but even what he is doing will destroy my reputation here and in my country and this is really hard especially there where people know each other and the roomers spread much easier it is hard on me on my kids and my parents it is really bad i would never do the same to him
> 
> Good to get advice from someone who knows about CA law
> Thanks for your time to read in my post


Well I certainly dont think it will hurt your reputation here, you have taken a lot of steps to protect yourself and it sounds like you have both your co workers and your bosses support. 

Does your T think he is dangerous? Is that letter about owning your lower half handwritten or typed? If it is handwritten along with the recent police activity you should be able to get a restraining order which will get him escorted out of the house.

I actually wonder if some of his thoughts are because of his countrys culture ( I'm not excusing his behavior or saying it is right)

Oh on you question about having him served you can have the Sheriff serve him or hire a professional server to do it for about 75 bucks. I dont think I would have a friend or co worker do that.


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## LVS

Brewster 59 said:


> Well I certainly dont think it will hurt your reputation here, you have taken a lot of steps to protect yourself and it sounds like you have both your co workers and your bosses support.
> 
> Does your T think he is dangerous? Is that letter about owning your lower half handwritten or typed? If it is handwritten along with the recent police activity you should be able to get a restraining order which will get him escorted out of the house.
> 
> I actually wonder if some of his thoughts are because of his countrys culture ( I'm not excusing his behavior or saying it is right)
> 
> Oh on you question about having him served you can have the Sheriff serve him or hire a professional server to do it for about 75 bucks. I dont think I would have a friend or co worker do that.


As you said Brewster 59 i have taken a lot of steps to protect myself and i have done a lot that make me proud of myself
The truth i wouldn't be able to do anything without the support of my friends here and for most TURNERA who didn't skip a day without offering support and advice even concerns and UPTOWN who i feel his presence even when he doesn't post and AFFAIRCARE who is always there at the hard time
and some others and now you. 
I am so blessed and so grateful for finding this board
Thanks to all of you

My T was analyzing his behavior last time she said he has signs of paranoid and Bipolar disorder....
she said he has a very sick mind but she didn't say he is dangerous

About him saying he owns me from waist down it was word of mouth not written. 

Our culture and religion as catholic give important role to the family in life even if we have to make sacrifices of our own rights mostly women rights (this was also a believe for a long time where the women were home staying while the man is the productive one. But in our days things changed and women works as much as men inside and outside home what made the mentality change) (as for my H who lives in this generation he still has the old mentality and in his 40s he seemed like a man in his 80s)

One more thing to add. 
To get divorce there it is really hard b/c we don't have civil marriage and the church who works to keep the family as a whole makes the annulment very hard so many got separated but stayed married until the death of one spouse(in our days also the church is making some changes and became less hard in some situation)
but never in our culture he has right to say he owns his wife as my H said 
the culture allow the man to be controller and manipulator(part of emotional abuse) but not verbal or physical abusive (i am not saying it is ok to be emotionally abuser but when it is a part of my culture i can admit it to a certain point)
and as i said in one of my posts no one of my friends was treated like my H treated me
the few i know who were in unhealthy marriage they left there marriage. one of them is my H's cousin...

Sorry if it is long and also thanks for the time of anyone reading in my thread


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## sisters359

As a Catholic, you only need an annulment if you want the right to re-marry. Even Catholics allow divorce "from bed and board," which is the same as a legal separation in many states--you are still "married" in that you cannot marry anyone else, but in all other ways you are single. Legals systems in the U.S. do not acknowledge this religious way of doing things, so a legal separation here is for marriages that are not "irretrievably broken" and where there is a *chance* of reconciliation. So, you do not want a legal separation. You want a divorce. You can get a legal divorce while waiting for the Catholic process to unfold, and you will NOT be rushing to remarry, so why worry about it?


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## LVS

I am not worried about that sisters359 I was just telling a part of our culture in my country
I am not thinking of it right now it is still a long process for me 

I still now don't know if i am going to serve him the papers my first concerns is my safety and my kids one so i might be leaving home with restraining order without serving him 
i don't know if it is better like that or not

what do you think any suggestion from anyone is welcomed


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## LVS

turnera said:


> lvs, I'm not trying to be rude, but what exactly did you think was going to happen when he got served? Did you think he would just go "Oh, ok, I guess that's it, let me pack my bags"? I thought you had been preparing a place to go all this time.


I was rereading old posts and i felt i need to answer this one
What i was trying turnera

#1 I thought he is trying to control me by not admitting to live in separate house
divorce under the same roof is a proof that he didn't gain control over me by keeping me of leaving for lack of finance
#2 In the other hand i thought maybe we can stay divorced under the same roof only for the sake of the kids and that's what i was trying to prepare him for

I know i was dreaming about #2 but i was hopping something nice will happen

In each step i am praying God to guide me right and i am taking all the time needed for each changing step to not regret it one day


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## turnera

I do understand. But I have to ask...what does your gut tell you will happen? Given his behavior of the last two weeks? The stalking, the sneaking into your room and leaving notes, the threats, the kids' bribes, the zillions of phone calls to every single person on earth that you know...


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## LVS

turnera said:


> I don't know what he has up his sleeve, but I guarantee he has something.
> 
> Remember what I told you. He is spending every waking minute obsessing about you leaving. EVERY WAKING MOMENT. He is CONSUMED with stopping you. This is getting dangerous. You read Why Does He Do That?, right? Go back and reread it and learn how he's going to act. He is getting dangerous and he is NOT the husband you had before.


I don't know what you meant with what he has up his sleeve?

If you meant he has a proof of me cheating i did not cheat and what he has only phone numbers but it is not cheating
and i went into his papers like he went into mine to find if he is planning for something and guess what i found ?

#1 i found an appointment with an immigration officer on 7th of July(this i am going to open a new thread for it)
#2 i found in his drawer a folder inside it the stupid proofs that he said he has on me cheating 
1- the post card i already told you about it
2-A copy of the letter i gave to his Dr(i don't know why he has it and if he knows i gave it to his Dr)
3- A copy of papers from my notebook 
I read an article at BPD family 
http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/kreger.pdf
In it there was Questions to help me to decide whether i stay or leave 
QUESTIONS TO ASK YOURSELF
When making decisions about your relationship
with a borderline, you might want to ask
yourself some of the following questions.
 What do I want from this relationship?
What do I need from this relationship?...

So i wrote few papers starting with what do i want from this relationship?(if someone want to twist it it could be my relationship with the other man 
but what i meant is to answer what they asked to help myself to know what is the relationship i want and need 
and to see what exists in my relationship with him the sad part is there was nothing from what i want or need existing in my relationship with him not now and not in all the 28 years...(and why i am still holding on why?)

What saddens me more he made copies of these papers to use them as a proof of my unfaithfulness that made me cry a lot
I know he got into my papers but in my papers there was so many things to tell him how much i am suffering and how much he hurt me in my life and why i decided to leave him...... But he made a copy of the papers that he thought, with his sick, mind he can use them as a proof




turnera said:


> PLEASE get a restraining order and a legal way to get him out of your house.


I didn't forgot today to go but the office was closed for the Independence Day
So tomorrow i will go

But i am scared to get restraining order to kick him out of the house and also i feel guilty if i do that i still don't want to do something hurtful to him

I am looking for a house to move out but i am thinking to wait until my daughter will leave to her University so i move out at the same time

What do you think ??


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## LVS

turnera said:


> I do understand. But I have to ask...what does your gut tell you will happen? Given his behavior of the last two weeks? The stalking, the sneaking into your room and leaving notes, the threats, the kids' bribes, the zillions of phone calls to every single person on earth that you know...


Even if i am scared b/c of all what i know about his disorder and what i read about abusers but i still don't believe he is willing to hurt me physically.
{Destroying my reputation in my country is like killing someone (it is like you have a piece of jewelery and you are taking care of it all your life proud of yourself and your parents are proud of you and one day the person who suppose to appreciate it smashed it and drowned it in the mud)
It is destroying me but i really care for my parents and my kids b/c they will get the consequences when people will say i left my H after 28 years of a happy marriage to be with OM
I am not living there anymore and i can get over this but for them it is going to be so hard...}

BUT also i didn't believe he would go to my work but he did so what if he decided to hurt me what if i am guessing wrong? I don't know..


Today is another day i am alone my daughter is not home 
i am not scared like the other day b/c i kind of know now what are his plans and since now he is looking at me in a disgusting way (like someone who really believed his lie) so he won't think to approach me. He is treating me like trash now. Anyway i will lock my door

What do you think ?


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## turnera

lvs, I told you he would turn this around to be you cheating - that way he doesn't have to admit that HE is the cause.

I think that if he can hold off til daughter goes to college it would be good...but he has an appointment with IMMIGRATION on July 7! That means he plans to FORCE YOU TO SUBMIT TO HIM NOW.

THIS WEEK.

You don't HAVE another month to wait.

That is what I think.

Please please please please don't underestimate the lengths to which he will go to FORCE you to SUBMIT to him and STOP all thoughts of leaving him.

That is ALL he wants - to STOP YOU FROM LEAVING.

Did you ever see Misery? It's a movie about a man who accidentally ends up at this woman's house in a storm. She wants him to stay. She is crazy. He wants to leave.

Guess what she does?

She cuts off his legs. To keep him from leaving.

I don't think he will be that drastic, but I DO think it will be something BAD. He is now over the edge. There is no going back. He will do whatever he has to do to stop you, no matter WHAT it does to him.

Please protect yourself so you can protect your children. Even now, after ALL this evidence of what he is doing TO YOU, you say you don't want to 'hurt' him.

For God's sake, please get yourself to some emergency therapy or a woman's shelter for AT LEAST someone to talk to. I'm not telling you to move out - just GO there and ask for advice. It is what they deal with every day. Let them give you advice, ok?

btw, 'up his sleeve' just means what does he have planned that you don't know about.


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## turnera

Did you ever go to Join the Live United Movement and find your closest office?


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## Brewster 59

So if you dont have a laywer at this point you need one. I THINK he thinks if he can get you back to the old country you will lose the support for the stand you are making. He may actually think you are cheating on him because he doesnt understand where you are getting the strength to fight him. Like I told you b4 here it doesnt matter if you are cheating or not especially in CA but he may not understand that. He definetly wants to make you look like the bad guy to at least the people in the old country. Here nobody will judge you on wanting a divorce, 50% of all marriages end in divorce I actually dont even know why any man would marry. 

From what you write H is a controlling, manipultive, verbally abusive person but as of yet not really violent. I dont think he is going to cut off your legs, do you fear he will get violent? I still think he loves you, he actually may think he is doing what is right to save his marriage. 

I think your Ts advice is the advice I would put the most stock in, after all they are the profesionals. I think a good laywer would have the best answers to the immigration problems and weather to go with a RO or not IMO.


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## turnera

I'm sorry if I sound drastic. I don't mean to terrorize you; I just want to err on the side of safety. He has hit you and your daughter; in my book, that is enough to show that he thinks his word should be law. I just think you can always come back from anger, if you leave him; but you can't come back from violence in the heat of fury, which is what I'm afraid of. If he doesn't get that bad, then good! I just don't want you or your daughter trapped.

Please do follow the instructions of the authorities. Call United Way. Visit a shelter just to get their advice, ok? Talk to your lawyer.


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## Brewster 59

I think turnera's advice is good and it is smart to have plans in place if you need to use them. I sometimes think she is a bit drastic in that it seems like shes saying an attack is eminent so while having plans in place if an attack occured is good Im not sure you need to be in constant fear of that happening, ask your Ts advice and others that deal with violent abusers what they think.
It might even be good to let it be known that you have discussed the possibility of him becomming violent with others as it may be a deterant if he thinks he will go to jail if he is violent( just a thought as I dont know the best way to deal with him) 

I wonder if it would be to your benefit to have an amiable divorce settlement cuz I know if it was me and the courts screwed me into paying an excessive amount of ailimoney and child support I would be on a plane to the Old country where the US has no jurisdiction.


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## LVS

I decided to speak to him we were home alone

I said I just want to tell you one thing: whatever you are doing is going to lead you to nowhere, simply b/c it doesn't exist you are going to waste your energy and effort on something other than what it should be which is taking care of yourself.

Than he blew up he said you are the B i never thought you could do that to me 
I said making limited phone calls with others is not cheating....
He said the way you are hating me and not wanting me in your life is a proof that you have someone else. what have i done to you to deserve that. You should see how other women are mistreated even worse than you are and they kept there family

I said ok name me one who her H treated her the way you did to me and she stayed with him 

He yelled at me and raised his voice saying you B what have i done to you at least i didn't cheat on you, shame on you to leave me for someone else I know and I have the proof and I will show it to my kids. 

I said shame on you to make a lie and believe it and put your wife in lower image in front of your kids. You went into my papers this should make you see the truth but all what you saw you took it as a proof of cheating. 

He said b/c you are cheating and i have the proof and also you asked to separate your phone account this is another proof 
I said we are separated and i should separate everything from you so you have no right to know what i am doing or who i am calling or text messaging ... Even there is nobody in my life and i won't have one maybe for ever it is not my concerns i need to take care of myself.

He said yes you are taking care of yourself, look at yourself (and he looked at me in a disgusting way) you look like a B this is how you always was but i didn't want to believe but go and ask people in our country what they are saying about you. 
I said that's not true and let's say ok who is talking bad about me tell me one name(he didn't)). 
Than he said he is going to show the proof that he has to my kids.
and he said it is enough for him that my oldest kids are on his side and they know who is the guilty person in our marriage.
I said good for you they are on your side b/c they had a mother who is not like you and who always kept the good image of the father and never said a bad word about him in front of them.

Than he said that he stopped going to the psychiatrist and he mentioned the bad way i talked to the psychiatrist it was like teaching him his own job and that before leaving the clinic i gave him a piece of paper that i wrote on it something bad of course. (it's when i told the psychiatrist that i filed for divorce)
I told my H why you didn't ask your Dr about this paper
He said i am not going anymore to see him.
I said why 
He said b/c i am not ill and i don't need to see him and what i was doing(the rage...) is b/c of you even when you brought the police for me you were planning to record me turning violent but i didn't and i messed up your plans. I know you don't want me to change i was blaming myself but i found that i was wrong it wasn't my fault but it was you who have someone else.....
Than he talked about my supporters the liberal ones who are supporting me and turning my head and they taught me b/c i am not this smart so they taught me to pick the time to hit my goal so I waited until he became sick and being laid of work than my supporters told me "now is the time hit him" and that's how you did by leaving a sick H.....

I said i didn't call the police and all what you are saying is a poof that you didn't change and when you start changing even if all the world say no you are not i am the only one who will know it, feel it and say yes you are changing
I know why I asked you to be in separate houses you didn't want 
He said go and even file for divorce i don't care anymore (I really feel so sad so sad why i am sad do you think i love him i don't know but i am sad b/c he won't change even he won't try it the right way)

Than I said that's what i am going to do and i am looking for another apt he said just know this is the last month in our lease i am going to leave this apt. 
I said good for you and he said i told your son that i am worried about you you won't be having an easy life
I said please don't show me that you care about me and i would prefer to live in a tent than living with you

He said you see this is another proof that you have someone else that's fine you leave and let your lover help you.. 

I had a sad smile on my face and left the room.

I can't describe my feelings ...........
I wanted a good life a life like it suppose to be between two persons
A healthy relationship.....
Was there other way to be done ?


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## Brewster 59

OK I think this pretty much proves a couple of points I was trying to make.

1. While he might be a rageaholic and will try to control by fear and manulipulation if he was going to be violent he would have during this episode. 

2. He knows the propper authorities are aware of the situation and he doesnt want to go to jail.

3 He really does think you are having an affair.

You ask if you still love him, I would say you still care about him but arent going to put up with his crap anymore. You did a great job of calling his bluffs. 

So make sure when you move to seperate houses that you file a motion for temp child support and spousal support. That will get you bye until the court rules on child support and alimoney.


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## turnera

No, unfortunately not. Honestly, it didn't turn out as bad as I thought it would. Just be careful.


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> No, unfortunately not. Honestly, it didn't turn out as bad as I thought it would. Just be careful.


Definetly agree with tunera here do not get overconfident, do not push unnecessary buttons, do what you need to do and get the hell outta dodge.


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## LVS

Thanks B 59 for the advice about motion support i din't know about it.

And as you said he is controlling his anger fear of me calling the police

About me cheating I can see he is bluffing and make sound he is believing of that b/c he mentioned the names of all the people i am in contact with now and from the past or he was jealous from them He knows what he has are fade proofs

So what i can see from one side
It is easier for him to see me as a cheater than handling responsibility of what he did 
from other side
It's a way to destroy me b/c he can't control me anymore. 

Now you said he controlled his reaction but i don't think it is easy for him b/c he didn't rage. This make me stay open eyes for what he might be doing to revenge.


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## LVS

He brought me the family picture and other memorial things plus his wedding ring and put them in front of my door 
He said he doesn't need them anymore and he doesn't want anything to remind him of me
And he said i have till the end of the month to move out
He called our oldest son and told him it is over we are going to divorce and that i am stubborn and i gave up my kids and threw 28 years of marriage for nothing

My son talked to me and asked me if this is my final decision
I said it won't matter for you b/c you already split me black so no matter what i say you won't understand especially after what your dad told you and he told me that you are not putting the blame on him for anything 
my S said we can't take a side i said but you are blaming me so you are taking a side 
He said you are the one who is leaving we can't blame him now
And he said you are my parents and you both will stay like that even if you are divorced but we need you to stay together

I explained him briefly what pushed me to take my decision
and i said it is not OM like your father told you i am not leaving him for someone else i am taking care of myself b/c he was drowning himself and wanted to drown me with him 
what i am doing is spending my time reading and now i understand what's going on in his mind
he said that what i read affected my mind in negative way i should do the right thing with him if i understood
I said what i read opened my eyes and when i started reading i started through my church and i am still working through my church and my bible and everything i read tells me to do what i am doing and i am totally convinced and believing that i am doing the right
and God doesn't want a one to suffer all his/her life he wants us to be happy and he didn't say that marriage can't survive with the effort of only one person

And by taking this decision i am sending you and your brother a message to not treat your future wife like your father did
and to your sisters do not let anyone treat you like that 

He asked me to give H one more chance 
I said no i am not going back to that life again 

I did my part i worked on myself and still working your dad needs to do his part and if he didn't it means he doesn't care about you or me or the marriage
when he does his part than we can both work on our relationship but until now he didn't start even he left his psychiatrist and still blaming me for everything but when he changed i will be the first to know 
my S said how you will know if you are not together i said i will know it won't matter where i will be

I ended the conversation asking him the same question that i asked to my oldest daughter. 

I said take a look to all our life together and give me one reason and only one to go back to him only one single thing that suppose to exist between two persons in a relationship and you can find in your dad and i am ready to rethink all the situation

Both of them my S and my D didn't have an answer
Isn't sad??? Nothing 

I told my son this should make you rethink who kept the marriage for 28 years and how hard they were on me?????

His answer was yes you build a castle took care of it 28 years and than you destroyed it 
I said your example is not true we build it but your father was destroying it until i am exhausted of rebuilding it i can't anymore

I promised him i am writing him from my diary the incidents that led to here but i don't thing now anything will convince him or change his mind but maybe one day he will understand

wow turnera do you remember how i was fearing this point to face my kids especially my oldest son


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## turnera

Yes. I think you knew, somehow, that they sided with him, over the years. Remember that abusers are VERY good at looking perfect to everyone - except the one person they hurt. So it's very hard for them to see what he did to you - because you always protected THEM from his abuse. Plus, they are male like him so will feel more affinity for him, just as your daughter sees your side. And your culture, I imagine, has a built-in 'man is always right' undercurrent in everything you do and believe.

I know it hurts, and I hurt for you, lvs. I really do. But I also know what it's like to wake up every morning fearing what will happen that day, knowing that you'll go to bed miserable that night, knowing that you'll sacrifice for everyone else all day long and, in the end, be ignored and taken for granted, if not outright harmed.

A year from now, when you're on your own, and you can wake up every day knowing that you won't be belittled, won't be taken for granted, won't be harmed that day...you'll wonder why you waited so long.

You only have one life, lvs. I don't think God expects us to use it just to help others, when we are utterly miserable ourselves. God wants YOU to be happy just as much as your husband. And if your husband can't even get into the mindset of CARING if you are happy, or trying to listen to what you feel, then you have to be the one person who will take care of YOU.

And who knows? This may be 'the' wakeup call for your husband. It is entirely possible that losing you can be so devastating for him that he reaches rock bottom and becomes willing to look at himself and change.

But you know it will never happen if you stay.


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> And who knows? This may be 'the' wakeup call for your husband. It is entirely possible that losing you can be so devastating for him that he reaches rock bottom and becomes willing to look at himself and change.
> 
> But you know it will never happen if you stay.


It may cause him to look at the way he treated her and want to change, the real question is if it did, if he did follow through with conseling and got some meds would it still be to late for this relationship?

LV I would not give up on the relationship with your oldest son, pray about it for healing, continue to reach out to him, let him know you dont expect him to choose you or his father. Let him know you love him and that you even care about his father but cant live with him and the way it was anymore. 

Good luck to ya in your new beginning and may the peace that passes all understanding be with you.


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## Uptown

Le vieux, I am simply blown away by your wonderful responses to your older son. You have done so well in answering his questions. I am especially impressed by how you responded to his accusation that you had destroyed the castle you built. His claim that HE needs you two to stay together is revealing, i.e., he is focused only on the impact on him, with no consideration of the cost to you. Like you, I believe he will come around to seeing your view after he has time to cool down and to see that his dad's problems are persisting in your absence.


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## turnera

uptown, that's a great observation. I'll take it a step further: He saw only the impact on him..._just like his father taught him_. It's not his fault he grew up like his dad.


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> uptown, that's a great observation. I'll take it a step further: He saw only the impact on him..._just like his father taught him_. It's not his fault he grew up like his dad.


You know neither of my adult children were happy when my marriage ended. LVs oldest boy is in the home country where they actually have some values and marriage vows are seen as a serious comittment. I think the statement he grew up like his dad is pretty harsh and unfounded. He admitted that the way his dad treated her was not right so there is no evidence that he will treat his future wife the same as his dad. He doesnt want his family to split up., most kids dont.


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## turnera

He doesn't want them to split up but he also has no compunction telling his mother he wants her to stay in a marriage she's miserable in.


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> He doesn't want them to split up but he also has no compunction telling his mother he wants her to stay in a marriage she's miserable in.


Maybe give him a little time to grieve, a little slack to say its ok for him to love his father, a little tolerance to understand that really the only acceptable reason for divorce is adultry due to the familys religious beliefs and this is hard for him to accept.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> Yes. I think you knew, somehow, that they sided with him, over the years. Remember that abusers are VERY good at looking perfect to everyone - except the one person they hurt. So it's very hard for them to see what he did to you - because you always protected THEM from his abuse. Plus, they are male like him so will feel more affinity for him, just as your daughter sees your side. And your culture, I imagine, has a built-in 'man is always right' undercurrent in everything you do and believe.


It is not that abusers looked good it is how i showed his image he treated them bad (most my hurt was for them b/c of what i use to think i never care if someone hurt me but i never admit that someone i love get hurt) all i could do was talk to them after he emotionally and verbally abuses them, to cool them down and to explain his view point to make them improve themselves like i was doing to myself and also find excuses for his anger or tired or it is b/c of the economic situation... as i use to believe that was the right i thought i was protecting them but in fact i wasn't

I spent years putting all my effort and energy into this marriage 
all my concerns were to please him and make him happy and satisfied (he never was) in purpose to keep my marriage and the family all together and keep my dreams about my family
I use in the past to rub his head massaging his forehead to cool him down when he is mad believing he is handling a lot and i should find a right way to deal with him until my kids got to a point they started to do the same when they use to see him upset to cool him down



turnera said:


> ..A year from now, when you're on your own, and you can wake up every day knowing that you won't be belittled, won't be taken for granted, won't be harmed that day...you'll wonder why you waited so long.


turnera in fact i did ask myself (sadly for the lost years of my life)why i waited so long...
but in fact i was always taking the chances that i get.
and it is only now and here where i found the strength to fight and that i have rights and where my voice would be heard without outside intervention from family and friends intimidating me or blaming me and influencing my decision...




turnera said:


> And who knows? This may be 'the' wakeup call for your husband. It is entirely possible that losing you can be so devastating for him that he reaches rock bottom and becomes willing to look at himself and change.
> 
> But you know it will never happen if you stay.


This is what i said to my son too
if something is going to be fixed one day it is through this choice that i picked that's why i am convinced i choose the right and if it didn't work i also pray for your dad and wish for him from the bottom of my heart to be a happy person even if he is not with me.


----------



## LVS

Brewster 59 said:


> It may cause him to look at the way he treated her and want to change, the real question is if it did, if he did follow through with conseling and got some meds would it still be to late for this relationship?


Brewster just time will tell i know i am doing the right i don't have anybody else in my life.
All my plans and goals was around him and the kids 
When i use to do something for just me even the minor things i use to feel it is to much i don't deserve it or i am selfish.

What i need to do:
NOW, I need to discover the self that i never knew. I want to find set my goals and dreams for the future. Taking care of myself is going to take a while.
At the same time i need to take care of my kids and their needs i was neglecting them lately and i am regretting that... 

So let the time tells what he is going to do. I never know if it will be to late or not?


----------



## LVS

Uptown said:


> Le vieux, I am simply blown away by your wonderful responses to your older son. You have done so well in answering his questions. I am especially impressed by how you responded to his accusation that you had destroyed the castle you built.


uptown you always cheer me up with your comments making me more proud of myself thank you...



Uptown said:


> His claim that HE needs you two to stay together is revealing, i.e., he is focused only on the impact on him, with no consideration of the cost to you...


I agree this is true, especially his wedding is next summer but i don't think it is only what his father taught him b/c for my son it is more about culture and believes influenced by the way i was thinking like "what other people are going to say?"...


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## turnera

Brewster 59 said:


> Maybe give him a little time to grieve, a little slack to say its ok for him to love his father, a little tolerance to understand that really the only acceptable reason for divorce is adultry due to the familys religious beliefs and this is hard for him to accept.


 Actually, abuse is also an acceptable reason for divorce according to her church, I believe.


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## turnera

Le vieux sage said:


> i should find a right way to deal with him until my kids got to a point they started to do the same when they use to see him upset to cool him down


Unfortunately, that is exactly what I have done, too. I have taught my daughter to soothe her father in his bad moods. So much so that now, when he and I fight, she thinks it's her job to 'fix' us and she gets upset when she can't. I've created an enabler in her, and I am so ashamed of myself for not being stronger when she was growing up and _protecting_ her from it all.

The best thing I have done in liueu of the right thing - to stop it - is to explain it all to her, so that she understands (I hope) that it is MY weakness creating this, not her being bad or wrong.


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## LVS

Brewster 59 said:


> ... a little tolerance to understand that really the only acceptable reason for divorce is adultry due to the familys religious beliefs and this is hard for him to accept.


I am sorry but if you don't mind to clear your point here i didn't get it right.


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## Brewster 59

Le vieux sage said:


> I am sorry but if you don't mind to clear your point here i didn't get it right.


Perhaps I was the one who didnt get it right, I know our priest belives the only bibilical bases for divorce is adultery. I thought you stated this was your churchs stance. If I am wrong my apoligy, I in no way think your leaving this marriage is wrong. 
I absolutley do not think you are having an affair.

I guess im just hoping your son didnt grow up to be like his dad and is just having a hard accepting this right now.


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## LVS

Brewster 59 said:


> Perhaps I was the one who didnt get it right, I know our priest belives the only bibilical bases for divorce is adultery. I thought you stated this was your churchs stance. If I am wrong my apoligy, I in no way think your leaving this marriage is wrong.
> I absolutley do not think you are having an affair.
> 
> I guess im just hoping your son didnt grow up to be like his dad and is just having a hard accepting this right now.


Thanks for clearing your point



Le vieux sage said:


> He said this is the subject of the 3rd part
> 
> I am a Catholic and our church allows divorce only in case of adultery so i don't think you have any reason for divorce and i strongly refuse the civil divorce


I didn't state that it was in a conversation between me and him on page 12 where my H said that it is the only way to get divorce but i didn't want to open my card now so i didn't answer him and it is not true...

abuse is one other reason for breaking marriage and that's what turnera mentioned too.

I suggest you to read this statement of the U.S. Catholic Bishops

USCCB - (FLWY) - When I Call for Help: A Pastoral Response to Domestic Violence Against Women

This is a part of it...

Finally, we emphasize that no person is expected to stay in an abusive marriage. Some abused women believe that church teaching on the permanence of marriage requires them to stay in an abusive relationship. They may hesitate to seek a separation or divorce. They may fear that they cannot re-marry in the Church. *Violence and abuse, not divorce, break up a marriage.* We encourage abused persons who have divorced to investigate the possibility of seeking an annulment. An annulment, which determines that the marriage bond is not valid, can frequently open the door to healing.


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## turnera

Brewster 59 said:


> I know our priest belives the only bibilical bases for divorce is adultery.


No offense and off-topic, but it figures that a male-dominated religion wouldn't take into account an issue like abuse, since it's something that harms women in 95% of the cases. It's just a beating, she should be able to deal with it...it's just words, it's no reason to not take what her husband dishes out...pffft.

I'm reading The History of Christianity right now, and it's mind-blowing how much of our 'organized' religion has come about based solely on the whims and personal self-promotioin of a handful of men throughout the years. I'm up to the 1200s so far.


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> No offense and off-topic, but it figures that a male-dominated religion wouldn't take into account an issue like abuse, since it's something that harms women in 95% of the cases. It's just a beating, she should be able to deal with it...it's just words, it's no reason to not take what her husband dishes out...pffft.
> 
> I'm reading The History of Christianity right now, and it's mind-blowing how much of our 'organized' religion has come about based solely on the whims and personal self-promotioin of a handful of men throughout the years. I'm up to the 1200s so far.


Well I would never take offense to anyones opinion, I think people have a right to their opinions and I also have a right to disagree or agree depending on the case and sometimes I agree to disagree. 

Actually our church has more female members than male members. I never said our priest would be OK with abuse of any kind. He would be in favor of seperation and conseling not that has any relavancy here. 

Church history is fasanating our church was actually started by King Henry, because the catholic church would'nt allow him to divorce. He later had his wifes head removed. A lot of sick things have been done in the name of religion.


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## LVS

I need your advice
The divorce papers will be with me on Monday
should i serve him when i move out or i just leave for now without serving him
what is the best

If i left without divorce or legal separation will this affect my custody


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## sisters359

Get legal advice through a free legal clinic. Do not go this alone.

Your metaphor about the castle was so beautiful--that you wore out from always having to rebuild the damage he did to the family. Your kids maybe didn't see all the work you had to do to keep their home and family intact, and how it took too great a toll on you and ultimately was dangerous for your daughter. Just so beautifully put and I know a LOT of women would agree with that phrasing!!


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## turnera

The divorce papers can wait. Safety is paramount. When you are settled and safe, then get him the papers.


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## Uptown

Le vieux, if you are sure that serving the papers before leaving can seriously affect custody, consider having a friend or two there when you do it as you are walking out the door. But be sure it is important for custody because, as Turnera says, you are safer at a distance. Also, the usual advice is that having strangers around is better than friends because BPDers tend to be more restrained in the presence of strangers. 

Ideally, they would be movers (picking up cartons or furniture) but your financial problems may not permit that. You might ask the police dept. if they would send someone to be there for 15 minutes while you do it. After my exW had me arrested, I went to the local police station to get an officer to accompany me so I could go and pick up some clothes. Although you don't have a restraining order issued against you like I did, they likely would be glad to offer such a service to avoid the danger to you.

In any event, please do not do it with him by yourself, and don't stay in the house after he is served. And don't give him any forewarning. All BPD sites advise partners to leave all of a sudden with no advance warning because the BPDer's response is unpredictable.


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## LVS

Thank you for everything and i am not sure of anything right know

Today i came back from work i found that he went into my closet and found my papers i was hiding them under my clothes. 
He read every single paper 
He knows now what i was doing the way i was thinking and so many personal things like putting 

I was mad i told him why you went into my papers again he was so confident when he talked to me he said he completed his folder now he has all the evidence he needs and on Sunday 25th of this months he is going to group all the family all my kids and his family and contact my son on Skype in my country who will be with my parents and my brothers on the internet and than he is going to tell everybody the truth that he was hiding all the time

I don't know what he has but i am scared till death b/c he is twisting everything....
I told him i am not going to be with them he said you should be they need to know the truth.
I said you can't force me to be he said you are coward that's why you don't want to be 
I said i don't care tell them the lies i won't be here to listen or to let your family judge me
He said you have your family online i said they are not here he said i am ready to bring them here i said do what you want but i would be in other house
He said yes b/c you are coward
But you need to know i am going to fight you till the end and i am not going to let you win and you won't take the custody of my kids and you will see what i can do
If you think by leaving you will be freed from me you are stupid 

I was able to keep you that innocent and stupid girl but i sent you to school and i taught you and I allowed you to become who you are i made you and i am going to destroy you
If you think when you leave you will be freed from me you are stupid
And i warn you 
You will end up to be homeless abandoned and alone all what will be left for you are your supporters who are twisting your head....

He was raising his voice and yelling i told him to lower his voice he said he is free to do whatever he wants if i don't want to hear his voice i can leave so i left to my room..........
Sadly all the conversation was in front of our S12...

Any advice please!!!!


----------



## turnera

My advice is find a support group there where you are for abused women. Get THEM to help you through this. lvs, you NEED people with you for this.

Everything he is saying is typical, by the book hogwash that BPD/abusers use to scare you back into submission. 

And hindsight, but didn't we tell you to keep your stuff outside your home, because he would go through all your stuff, looking for a weapon against you?

Find a support group or go to a shelter and ask them for advice. You need local help.


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## Uptown

Yes, what he is doing is typical BPD behavior during a divorce. He will twist things because his perception is greatly distorted. Moreover, he will not hesitate to lie when it serves him. In his mind, you are an evil Hitler because he is splitting you black. That's why we would much prefer for you to be in a shelter. The viscious lies and distortions are the least of the danger -- you can explain them away to the folks who count, your kids. But the physical harm -- if it comes to that -- cannot be explained away.


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## Affaircare

LVS~

I want you to know that my exH did the exact same thing. He moved out (to live with his wistress) and one day I came back to the marital home and it looked like a tornado had hit. He deleted my hard drive and tore through our office looking for "my papers" and left a disaster behind. 

Luckily for me, I had not kept them at home but in a file at work--and they had orders at work not to let him in my office. Luckily for me, I had printed everything on the hard drive. And I took photos of the aftermath and called the police to report a break-in. I told them I suspected it was him but had no direct proof, and it was on record for the restraining order. Sooooooo...put your papers in a safe place out of the house, okay? It's okay--you learned that we don't tell you these things just to make it hard on you but rather to help you. 

Also, I want to reassure you about something. My exH also told all the neighbors, all the kids, all the people at work, all the former customers, all the people at church etc. that I had anger issues and was unstable and that probably * I * was the one who was cheating because I was so paranoid. If you remember, I had the lingerie they left in a hotel (Mr. and Mrs. Affaircare and we had never been there); the receipt paying for that hotel for a night; and video of them going into the hotel at night and coming out together the next morning!! 

Rather than defend myself and make it tit-for-tat and He Said/She Said I just kept quiet, told the truth when someone asked, and went about my business being honest and dependable. Yep I did lose some friends...but it didn't take too long for my kids to see which parent was there, caring for them and giving them a place to stay, and which parent was too busy with his wistress. And it didn't take the people at work or former customers too long to see which one was working to correct all the credit and stuff he'd messed up, and which one would still yell at them and dishonor his promises. It didn't take the neighbors or the people at church too long to see who was the spouse staying home, caring for the kids and yard, paying bills, and continuing at church--and which one gradually quit coming, didn't help with things, and abandoned the family. 

So I know you are afraid that he has set it up so that he looks like "the good guy" and you look like "the bad guy", but just be calm, be firm but steady, and keep being the wonderful and strong woman you are. Actions speak louder than words and it won't take people--even your kids--long to see who is the abuse and who is not.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> Everything he is saying is typical, by the book hogwash that BPD/abusers use to scare you back into submission.


I know this is what he is doing but also he wants to destroy me he will put all his power to do that and he knows my weaknesses (my kids my parents my finances) and he will use every single minute to reach his goal which is bring me back on my knees.



turnera said:


> And hindsight, but didn't we tell you to keep your stuff outside your home, because he would go through all your stuff, looking for a weapon against you?


The papers he saw are like copies of articles about BPD or abuse..., notes from what i am reading, and thoughts about how i am feeling and what i am concluding... also a paper from my priest saying that he asked him for counseling but he refused (this one i was saving it as a hiding card) he is making copy for every paper he find it helpful

some other papers, lyrics of songs, poems that i wrote, so many things could be twisted to get the meaning that he is looking for to proof that i am cheating 

Anyway yesterday i put all the important papers like passport birth certificates and all my important papers even my personal note books in my car


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## LVS

Uptown said:


> Yes, what he is doing is typical BPD behavior during a divorce. He will twist things because his perception is greatly distorted. Moreover, he will not hesitate to lie when it serves him. In his mind, you are an evil Hitler because he is splitting you black. That's why we would much prefer for you to be in a shelter. The viscious lies and distortions are the least of the danger -- you can explain them away to the folks who count, your kids. But the physical harm -- if it comes to that -- cannot be explained away.


This is the main point uptown he will twist anything just to reach his goal 1- destroying me 2- get the custody of my son

IMO he won't do anything to hurt me physically b/c he doesn't want to go to jail but destroying me will satisfy his anger and give him the vengeance he wants

I can think of physical hurt only when he find all what he is doing is not helping to destroy me and when i win custody then he will feel he lost everything at this point he might become dangerous..


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## LVS

Affaircare said:


> LVS~
> 
> I want you to know that my exH did the exact same thing. He moved out (to live with his wistress) and one day I came back to the marital home and it looked like a tornado had hit. He deleted my hard drive and tore through our office looking for "my papers" and left a disaster behind.
> 
> Luckily for me, I had not kept them at home but in a file at work--and they had orders at work not to let him in my office. Luckily for me, I had printed everything on the hard drive. And I took photos of the aftermath and called the police to report a break-in. I told them I suspected it was him but had no direct proof, and it was on record for the restraining order. Sooooooo...put your papers in a safe place out of the house, okay? It's okay--you learned that we don't tell you these things just to make it hard on you but rather to help you.


Thank you Affaircair for sharing your experience..
And happy for you you were smarter than him and you took your precautions

As for me i am lucky he didn't destroy any paper and this gave me more chance to take them to a safer place
Luckily for me too that all the important documents that i am making about all the past incidents are still on my laptop b/c i didn't have a chance to copy them 
and also luckily the divorce papers and the police reports are not with me yet 




Affaircare said:


> Also, I want to reassure you about something. My exH also told all the neighbors, all the kids, all the people at work, all the former customers, all the people at church etc. that I had anger issues and was unstable and that probably * I * was the one who was cheating because I was so paranoid. If you remember, I had the lingerie they left in a hotel (Mr. and Mrs. Affaircare and we had never been there); the receipt paying for that hotel for a night; and video of them going into the hotel at night and coming out together the next morning!!


That's now what he is trying to do he is saying that i am sick and i need psychiatrist he told me that before and when i was talking to my son that his father should not stop seeing the psychiatrist than my son said you to should see a psychiatrist then i told my son i am seeing therapist he was surprised b/c as i conclude his dad told him that i am ill and i am not seeing one......




Affaircare said:


> ...So I know you are afraid that he has set it up so that he looks like "the good guy" and you look like "the bad guy", but just be calm, be firm but steady, and keep being the wonderful and strong woman you are. Actions speak louder than words and it won't take people--even your kids--long to see who is the abuse and who is not.


Yes Affaircare i am affraid he is hurting me by hurting my beloved and by trying to destroy my good reputation in my country
When i was talking to him i said how can you claim i am cheating on you and who is this stupid OM who is waiting for a woman is not seeing him you know i am home staying in my days off so how i am cheating? and you saw the phone and text messages are very limited so who is this stupid man who is waiting a woman who rarely talk to him or see him

He said you are all your time on the computer who knows with who you are talking then i also said you know that my daughter is with me most the time how can i be able to chat with someone without her knowing that? He said you can hide your laptop and she won't be able to see anything i laughed then he said i have the proof with me and i am going to let everybody know the truth...

Thanks Affaircare for your supportive words and hopefully actions wil have the time to speak louder than words...


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## turnera

Your laptop is his next target. It is what connects you to the world and gives you courage to leave him. Keep it in your car and locked when you are not using it; make sure he doesn't have keys to your car.

Do you have a bag packed in your trunk for you and your kids? Are you keeping your purse in your car and your phone in your pocket?


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## LVS

whoever is reading now i am so nervous i found the folder that in it he made all the copies should i destroy it?

I need quick answer please


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## Uptown

I don't know. It seems hardly any of it can actually be used against you. If there is something, you might want to destroy that. On the other hand, it may enrage him for no good purpose. I don't see what he has that can be turned against you. Certainly not a few poems or the priest's letter.


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## LVS

oh it is nothing about the cheating issue or poems...
It is about other papers 
a paper when i got immigration lawyer advice the paper that the priest gave to me and article about leaving a partner with BPD...my thoughts and feelings hand written
the post that i wrote after the meeting with my brother i should destroy it after posting it but unfortunately i didn't

On the paper i am saying i am lucky to have poeple like you and i feel better after your replies


----------



## LVS

I don't know with someone like my H what he can use against me.
In fact for him he can use all of them against me for the rest of my life but i mean in legal way i don't know if anything could be twisted to be used against me

He learned from what he found that
1- i saw immigration lawyer through the catholic charities services
2- i have a paper from my priest a proof of him refusing counseling
3- i am seeing a therapist since my brother left.
4- i am looking for second job to be able to leave
5- he has a proof that i have supporters on the internet
6- kind of knows i am doubting he is BPDer
7- a list of organizations in our area their address and the kind of help they can offer
8- on a paper i wrote about my brother saying to me "let him prove his failure" (this he can use it against my brother)

As for cheating he has stupid papers and it is like all of you said only words and hogwash just to scare me...

what he has 
1- a gift card about human touch ( i can proof i got it from work)
2- what i want from this relationship
and what i need from this relationship
I can get the article from bpd family where i found many questions and i answered them to make about 5 pages on what means a relationship for me and what i want from a partner

sadly he also made a copy of my feelings about what he did to me and alsoone copy of these words

"It's easier for him to accuse me of cheating even to believe that it is true than to handle responsibilities of what he did.

I don't think it just goes this easy for him.(about me willing to leave and divorce him) He will react soon"

So why he made a copy of this paper?
I wish he can understand 
and start focusing on himself .........

So do you think should i destroy them


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## turnera

You have more knowledge than he does. It might help you to not let on.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> Your laptop is his next target. It is what connects you to the world and gives you courage to leave him. Keep it in your car and locked when you are not using it; make sure he doesn't have keys to your car.
> 
> Do you have a bag packed in your trunk for you and your kids? Are you keeping your purse in your car and your phone in your pocket?


yes turnera i started taking my laptop with me and when i am not working on it anyone needs to use it needs a password to access 
I can't keep my purse or my important things for a long time in my car
couple months ago someone broke the passenger window and stole things from my car. so nothing will stop my h from doing that now if he doubted i am hiding my things there.
I will see what i can do.


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## Affaircare

I recommend leaving your important papers in a file in a locked drawer in your office. This would be all birth certificates, driver's license, immigration, social security or whatever for identification, marriage certificate...ANY LEGAL PAPER. Also have another file, at the back of the drawer, for your notebook, poems, etc. That way not only is it at work (which he shouldn't be able to get into) but it's also in a locked drawer! And YOU have the key!!

Next, keep a small duffle bag packed in your trunk. This would be 1-2 changes of clothing, a very small amount of cash (like $20 and some change), copies of keys (car, house, etc.) and have it as small as you can. This is your "fleeing for your life" bag, and it should have just what you need to survive a day or two in case you have to literally flee the house. It would contain just enough to last until you can get to a friends' house, a relatives' house, a shelter, or someplace and then you would have this bag and the papers at work at least safe. The $20 is for if you need gas and the change is for if you need to make a 911 call from a phone booth.



P.S. Here is another great Safety List by Dr. Irene. Here are some of her Tips for Leaving an Abuser


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## LVS

Sister X called me today and we set appointment on the afternoon
She told me. He came to the church office to meet with the priest and talk to him but he wasn't there so sister x talked to him
He told her that he is ready for counseling but i am not and he asked her if she can talk to me to change my mind and give our marriage a chance
I told her i can't understand why he is requesting that after one day of him threatening to destroy me and that i am who destroyed his life and i am the reason of his reactions and i am the one who cheated on him and he has the silly proof she said yes he showed me the gift card but it is not a proof i told her that it was a greeting card to all employees on Christmas time.
Then i told her all what he is talking about me to my parents and kids ........
She said that she told him he should accept counseling when i asked him that b/c it was the edge for me and when he refused counseling we came to a point the relationship is destroyed and not able to be rebuild
She asked me if i am able to do counseling and i said he needs to work for long time on himself without me to be able to work with him to create a new relationship b/c the old one is gone and when he is ready i will go to marriage counseling with him.
I told her i filed for divorce and i asked her if she knows about the cycle of abuse she said yes and i need to get out of the house asap and be careful for my safety
and when i told her i am keeping my important papers in my car she said i can bring them to the church and they can keep them for me.


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## LVS

Thank you AffairCare for these informations they are really helpful

The divorce papers are with me now

They said just get yourself out of the dodge and than you can take care of everything else

They advice me to not wait long time after i leave to serve him because i have nothing to legally protect me and he can use that against me

But i don't feel i am ready to serve him the papers with everything going on with my family and kids 

So i thought maybe i should change the papers to a legal separation this can keep my rights at the same time keep me married to him i know it was your opinion turnera from the beginning maybe it is safer for the moment too
I feel confused i don't know how to think right

My sister called me to tell me that my son is totally depressed and he is willing to try to get a visa to come here and try to solve the situation.. 
I was crying and depressed after talking to my daughter too who was saying if i have to leave i should let my son stay with his dad unless if i want to kill my H by leaving him alone....

I know my oldest kids are blaming me for my decision my daughter said that nothing could change a 55 year old man he lived all his life like that and that's how he knows to deal with his family they know he loves them and they never hated him i said why she said b/c we know why he did that i told her is this a reason to treat you the way he was treating you and tell me how you understood him and forgave him it is not b/c you had a stupid mother who was always making excuses she said yes i know but look at us we are not complicated kids and we are bright because he raised us the right way I said you need to read about people who are abusers and see how their kids should become then you will see that you are different so can you tell me why ? Wasn't your mom who was making sure to not let the abuse affect you as much as she can
what do you think was the price for protecting you...........

she insisted if i need to leave i should keep my son with his dad i said how you say this it is true he is taking care of him but not treating him right and your dad needs to spend some time alone to focus on himself and on what he did she said what he did? you are divorcing him you need to think about a solution he doesn't want the divorce!!!!!!
but she is still blaming me for taking this decision now after 28 years of marriage 

My dad told me to not destroy the family i told him it is not me who destroyed it but b/c i am the one who is leaving the marriage so i am at fault 
My mother said what if you come here if the law in USA is protecting you what if here he did something to you by the law and hurt you???
I feel alone so much alone in my decision and i am fighting the whole world the only one supporting me is my D17
i am back to confusion and i am back destroyed i am tired of fighting 
if i go back to him and to the same life it will kill me in the whole meaning of the word 
having this thought to go back for only one min made me weeping like a child...

I am in a situation where i can't go back and i am scared from going on so scared....

You have right to be bored of saying the same words to me and i am still
each time i walk a step forward something brings me back to the confusion ....


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## Brewster 59

Well I dont see how you can turn back now, I dont see how H would want things to stay the same knowing how unhappy you are. Are you planning on going back to the home country? Im not sure you can modify a divorce to a seperation, you also need to find out if there is a certain amout of time in which the papers must be served. I know the respondant has 30 days to respond after being served.


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## LVS

They told me i can convert them to a legal separation, they said also the legal separation is for only two months, and at anytime i can also change them to divorce (to convert the papers to legal separation it will also take about 2 weeks)

once served he has 30 days to respond but i can hold on the papers up to three years without serving him

but as they said it's better to serve him at the same time while leaving or after few days when he cool down
and i can't get restraining order b/c he did nothing recently to make me get one

As for my country, i want to go see my son and my parents for vacation then come back my son's wedding next summer but right now i am not sure about anything 

With all the effort he is doing to bring me back i can't see any sign of love i only see desire of control over me and to break me down
I wish he was acting with love i really wish that
Even with the conversation with sister x he told her he wants marriage counseling but in fact his main goal is to make me lose my church support by trying to make them believe that he is changing and wanting counseling but i am not willing to do anything for our marriage and also showing them his proof (the gift card lol) that i am leaving him for someone else


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## turnera

Brewster 59 said:


> Well I dont see how you can turn back now, I dont see how H would want things to stay the same knowing how unhappy you are.


Brewster, you are under the mistaken impression that lvs's husband is NORMAL. He is abusive. He does not CARE if she is unhappy. He only CARES about her not 'winning.' He would happily take her back, just so he wins, and he would then proceed to torture her mentally for 'daring' to do this to him - all of it: the police, the talking about him, the asking for counseling, the 'making' his and her family think badly of him. He will PUNISH her for this. 

Please read up on abuse before you give advice like that.

Not to mention that the country they come from allows women next to no rights to begin with. What she is doing here is considered blasphemous over there.

lvs, thank God for Sister X! PLEASE do return to her for help and support. Please go out and meet your neighbors more, like I suggested. Call me if you need to. 

I don't have a problem with the separation, as long as you two aren't in the same house, and going to counseling. It might give him hope that you will take him back. And who knows? It may be enough for him to actually hit rock bottom and change. I think living alone will be a HUGE wakeup call for him.

But PLEASE do not leave your son for him. No matter WHAT your son says, or anyone else says. YOU are his mother, YOU know that staying there is mentally unstable and harmful for him, and you know that if he were to stay there with his father he would (1) grow to hate you for the rest of his life through the brainwashing and (2) potentially grow up to be just like his dad.

Stay strong, ok?

YOU deserve to be happy and without mental abuse. You deserve it. You are created from God and therefore just as valuable and special as any other human on this planet. Just because your society and your husband don't care about your happiness doesn't mean it is right.


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> Brewster, you are under the mistaken impression that lvs's husband is NORMAL. He is abusive. He does not CARE if she is unhappy. He only CARES about her not 'winning.' He would happily take her back, just so he wins, and he would then proceed to torture her mentally for 'daring' to do this to him - all of it: the police, the talking about him, the asking for counseling, the 'making' his and her family think badly of him. He will PUNISH her for this.
> 
> Please read up on abuse before you give advice like that.
> 
> .


Perhaps I didnt express myself correctly, I know H is not right,I just dont understand the way he thinks. I personally would rather let my W go, than go on feeling like LV feels. 

The only advice I gave was, she could not turn back now, that freak would make life a living hell.


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## turnera

Brewster 59 said:


> Perhaps I didnt express myself correctly, I know H is not right,I just dont understand the way he thinks. I personally would rather let my W go, than go on feeling like LV feels.
> 
> The only advice I gave was, she could not turn back now, that freak would make life a living hell.


Sorry, my bad for misinterpreting.


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> Sorry, my bad for misinterpreting.


No bad at all, it is extremely easy to misunderstand what a person is Trying to say on forums, mostly because their is no emotions in typed words, sometime they are misinterpretated sometimes the writer does a poor job writing what they are trying to say.:scratchhead:


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## LVS

Brewster 59 said:


> No bad at all, it is extremely easy to misunderstand what a person is Trying to say on forums, mostly because their is no emotions in typed words, sometime they are misinterpretated sometimes the writer does a poor job writing what they are trying to say.:scratchhead:


lol the hardest job should be mine : )

wish me luck to find an apartment asap i facing problem to be qualified even for a one bedroom apartment because my wage is not filling the requirements.


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## LVS

I found a one bedroom apartment tomorrow they will give me the answer if i am qualified otherwise i should find someone else to sign 
with me the application.
If everything will be ok i will have the key after 10 days 

My friends i am doing everything i should do and i need to do but as much as i am working to move out as much as i am sad 
I don't want to lose my dream keeping my family all together
It is really hard I don't want to leave him forever but i don't have any hope that things are going to get better 
I am so sad i am so sad


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## turnera

{{{lvs}}}

It's gonna be ok.


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## LVS

It is a time where i am so down I am so desperate


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## LVS

I have fear of the coming days i am planning to move out before the end of this month


When i got legal advice they said it is better to not serve him the divorce papers when i leave but
What do you think will happen if i left and served him at the same time?

Can you picture what he might do if i left without serving him?

I am scared of his reaction in both situation and he won't admit that i leave with my S12 even if i left when he is not home


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## Brewster 59

Well I think you get out, then have papers served, go no contact, dont tell him where you are, get a new number for your cell phone. File a motion for temp child support and spousal support and see what the future has in store for you. 

You couldnt keep living like that, it will be hard but you will get through this with Gods help.


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## Affaircare

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


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## turnera

The one thing he seems to respect most is authority, so make sure you have done all the right things legally (and with police) to protect you and your kids from him taking you back by force or coercion.


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## LVS

At YMCA they told me to not ask for motion support right now let myself get the custody first than i ask for child support.
spousal support i won't be able to get because of his income

If i got new number for me i can't get for my kids and their numbers are on his account

The papers are clear and i should have the kids with me but when i got the legal advice they said i should serve him after i moved out like few days and he has time to cool down 
But i can't legally take the kids from the house without him obstructing me even i can't get the police to assist me if my h is not served and aware of the court order.


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## turnera

Who do you have who can help you move? You need people around you, if you have to serve him.

Personally I would think that if you take the kids and move, and THEN tell him you have moved (with witnesses) and hand him the papers, he does not have any legal way to keep you from keeping the kids with you.


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## Brewster 59

So I know I was not allowed to serve my respondant papers, I had to get someone to do it and provide proof of service. Im pretty sure it will be the same with the D papers. I also know it takes about 7months here to get in front of the judge so it seems odd there no way to get any support for the children until then.


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## Affaircare

LVS~

Let's go through this step-by-step and just go slowly and with a cup of tea to calm down. Take a couple of deep breaths. People have gone through this before and although it is scary and really upsetting at the moment, you will be okay and so will your children. 

So let's review everything one thing at a time. You're getting advise from all over and it seems like it contradicts, but it doesn't.


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## Brewster 59

Affaircare said:


> LVS~
> 
> Let's go through this step-by-step and just go slowly and with a cup of tea to calm down. Take a couple of deep breaths. People have gone through this before and although it is scary and really upsetting at the moment, you will be okay and so will your children.
> 
> So let's review everything one thing at a time. You're getting advise from all over and it seems like it contradicts, but it doesn't.


This may be true due to different laws in different states so what is true here may not be true where you are.

I think the first thing LV should do is get out of that house. I think she should take a day off when she has a new place and while H is at work move her stuff out. I think H should be served either that day or the next day but not by her, this guy is unpredictable. 

One thing she may want to look into before serving him is if she can get the filing fees waived which are $355 in Ca, you have to be pretty poor to qualify though.


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## Affaircare

> When i got legal advice they said it is better to not serve him the divorce papers when i leave but
> What do you think will happen if i left and served him at the same time?
> Can you picture what he might do if i left without serving him?
> I am scared of his reaction in both situation and he won't admit that i leave with my S12 even if i left when he is not home


--AND--


> At YMCA they told me to not ask for motion support right now let myself get the custody first than i ask for child support. Spousal support i won't be able to get because of his income.
> 
> If i got new number for me i can't get for my kids and their numbers are on his account
> 
> The papers are clear and i should have the kids with me but when i got the legal advice they said i should serve him after i moved out like few days and he has time to cool down
> But i can't legally take the kids from the house without him obstructing me even i can't get the police to assist me if my h is not served and aware of the court order.


Le viex, let me see if I can make this easier for you to envision okay? 

1) Your YMCA is in your state and has helped lots of people do it in your specific area. We are online people on a forum who are not lawyers. Okay? So their advice is going to be the advice you listen to the most. 

That being said, they have better legal assistance and information about when/how your state addresses it, but we have some personal and practical experience having been through a divorce. Make sense? So our advice would be more like "Here are some tips that worked for me and may be helpful for you." Their advice would be more like "This is what applies in our state." Does that help clarify how to take our suggestions?

2) As I understand it, since both you and your husband are parents of the children, what is in effect now is "joint custody" so you both have exactly equal rights to the children now. You care for them and you both support them. Right? So can you take the kids with you to visit a friend in another city by yourself? Just you and the kids? Now your husband might prevent you from seeing people...I mean, could you put the kids in the car and go to a town about an hour away for a visit or camping or a vacation? Yes you could do that, because as the parent you have just as much custody of the kids as he does. So he does not have the right to tell you that you can or can not take the kids with you when you move. He can not obstruct you and there is no law preventing you from taking them with you. In fact, since he has a record with DCS of harming your daughter, you have reasonable reason to NOT leave your children with him! But there is no law that says he gets to tell you that you can not take them or that says he can obstruct you. 

Sooooo...I would suggest moving as much as you can on a day when he is at work (if there is such a day) or on a day when he is just not around. 

Before you move, I would suggest notifying the police that you will be moving, that he has been abusive and show them the DCS report and the police report, and that until things are settled you are taking the kids with you. They can not stand around and protect you, but they can be notified that things might get ... out of hand. The very FIRST thing you move is just a few suitcases and the kids. They go to the new place FIRST and then do not come back to the old house. 

Also before you move, I would suggest notifying the people at your work so he can not storm into the office and hurt you there. They can offer some assistance with security and not taking his calls (or letting them get through at work). There's a good chance some of the people at work are friends enough with you that they would help in as many ways as possible. So tell your boss and your co-workers and let them help you as much as they can...maybe it's just time off for the days to move but still that's a big help!

Finally before you move, you may want to change your cell phone number and see if you can put the children on YOUR cell phone plan..BUT on the other hand, if he's willing to pay for their plan, that might be a way of allowing him to support the children and it would involve the kids losing all their phone numbers, contacts, etc. Yes, their dad would call and harass them wanting to talk to you etc. but that will happen no matter what because it's a choice he makes to behave that way. So changing your phone number may give you a few days peace and breathing room but it won't last forever. I would move yours at least so he can not disconnect you--but other than that, just turn phones off for a few days while you move and get settled into your new place. 

3) After you are moved into your new place, wait a few days (like 5 days) and then have a friend or the sheriff serve him with the divorce papers. I think the sheriff will do it for $$ and it's an off-duty policeman usually. Serving him just means that someone who's over 18 can sign a paper and say "Yes...I handed him the papers" to verify he DID get them (That's because once he has them, he has 30 days to reply and often the one who gets the papers doesn't reply in time and they say "I never got the papers!"). You would probably be smart to serve him AFTER you have moved because if you do it before you move, he's likely to be angry and abusive and you (or the kids) will be in harm's way. If you do it after, he will not be able to harm you other than if you have left the phones on and he calls to scream at you (or the kids). The beauty of having your own phone though is that you don't need to listen to his ranting and you can say, "Please speak to me without screaming or swear words or I'm going to hang up? Oh you're continuing with the screaming so I'm hanging up now bye!" and hang up. 

4) After he's served, he has 30 days to respond to the court. If he does not respond, what you put in the divorce papers will be decreed by the judge. If he does respond, he can ask for the moon if he wants, but you don't have to give it to him. Just say no. And usually you would get some kind of "temporary custody and support order" during this timeframe. That temporary thing usually says "Let's keep things the way they are until the divorce is final" so if you have the kids, they are safe. If you are able to have him visit the kids, I'd suggest supervised only due to the risk of hurting them...and I would suggest either tape recording or video taping ANY TIME you talk to him. Check your state but usually all you have to say is: "I'm informing you now that I'm tape recording this so if you don't want to be tape recorded you can stop talking and walk away now." If he stays and talks, he has consented to it. Regarding support, well to be honest he may do what my exH did and say "I'm not paying you ANYTHING until a judge orders me to" so you may have to get along on your salary and some food stamps or a food pantry. But you know what? Be brave--that's why we have those things: to help out a lady like you who needs it. And then when a judge is going to order it, just ask for the back support, like "I moved out 8/1 so it should have started on that date." The judge would usually say "$XXX amount for child support and add $XX amount for back support...payable for 24 months" or something of that nature. 

Soooooooooo...do you have a better picture of how this might go? Can you see that as their mom and one of the parents you have the right to take them out of the house? You can already take them to school, to a vacation, or for a visit right? You are EQUAL to him and in this instance, as their parent, you are taking them to protect them from physical, emotional and mental harm!! That is what a parent is supposed to do: protect their children!!


----------



## LVS

Brewster 59 said:


> So I know I was not allowed to serve my respondant papers, I had to get someone to do it and provide proof of service. Im pretty sure it will be the same with the D papers. I also know it takes about 7months here to get in front of the judge so it seems odd there no way to get any support for the children until then.


yes it is the same as i said in my post someone over 18 need to serve him and provide a proof of service

It won't take this time for custudy like 2 or 3 weeks after the court got the approval that he has being served we will be in front of the court for the custudy 

The reason they told me to not ask for support right now is to not give him more reason to fight me for the custody..



Brewster 59 said:


> One thing she may want to look into before serving him is if she can get the filing fees waived which are $355 in Ca, you have to be pretty poor to qualify though.


I requested that when i filed and the fees are waived plus some services between them i can ask a sheriff to serve him for free...


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## LVS

turnera said:


> Who do you have who can help you move? You need people around you, if you have to serve him.
> 
> Personally I would think that if you take the kids and move, and THEN tell him you have moved (with witnesses) and hand him the papers, he does not have any legal way to keep you from keeping the kids with you.


I have no one to help me but i can ask my neighbors and today at work i was telling two of my coworkers about the situation they offered their help one of them said she is going to get her two boys helping too but if he saw them can he stop them from helping ?


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## turnera

No! He has NO right telling you or those boys what they can do if they are helping YOU. You are 50% owner/inhabitor of that home.


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## LVS

That was great Affaircare i appreciate all your time and the very clear way you used it to explain things and about the back support this is a good one 

I understand that your advice is based on experience and theirs based on the law of the state i need both that's why i am here but also there

About moving out it is going to be hard b/c he is laid of work and lately he is spending more time home but he has time he goes for physical therapy or grocery or when he takes a nap and this will take couple hours each time so i can use that time

About videotaping i can do it without notifying him if we are in public only phone call recording in my state both parties should be notified but what a friend told me i can notify him by email that all our futur conversation are going to be recorded so like that i will be doing legal recording


should i be present while someone is serving him ?

About the assets at YMCA they told me i can take half the assets but it is nothing written on the papers except my car
my question how to know what i can take ?


Thank you to all of you for all your help and support


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## Brewster 59

Le vieux sage said:


> I have no one to help me but i can ask my neighbors and today at work i was telling two of my coworkers about the situation they offered their help one of them said she is going to get her two boys helping too but if he saw them can he stop them from helping ?


So I dont know where you are in Ca, Im in the North Bay, if that is somewhat close I will help you move for free. No he absolutley cant try to stop you. If he trys to stop you tell him you will call the sheriff, make sure you have your papers in the car in case you have to call the sheriff.


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## turnera

Honestly, I would just take what you need to start a new home. Leave the rest.


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## Affaircare

Le vieux sage said:


> About videotaping i can do it without notifying him if we are in public only... phone call recording in my state both parties should be notified but what a friend told me i can notify him by email that all our futur conversation are going to be recorded so like that i will be doing legal recording


That sounds reasonable. The way I look at it, you are video or tape recording your meetings for your protection. I would not advise trying to tape record phone calls because that can be complicated but if you want you can look up your state's laws by clicking HERE! You are taping so he can not say "I didn't say that" or "I never did that". You have proof! So I usually tell people to do it all up front--not in secret at all. Tell them right up "I'm taping this meeting and if you don't want to be taped please go now." Either they will leave you alone (so you're safe) or they'll stay and you have proof of anything that transpires. Win/win. 




> should i be present while someone is serving him ?


Nope. No need. Let some big, burly police officer hand him the papers, fill out the proof of service, and give it to the court. The end. No need for LVS to be in danger.



> About the assets at YMCA they told me i can take half the assets but it is nothing written on the papers except my car
> my question how to know what i can take ?


Okay here what I did. If we had two couches, I took one. If we had only had one of an item, I only took what I thought was fair and what I realistically needed in a new place. For example, if your house is 5 bedrooms and your apartment is 1 bedroom...no sense in taking 4 bed huh?  

You'll need a table and chairs, a TV for the kids maybe, some bedding, kitchen stuff and bathing stuff...you get the drift right? 

For money, have a separate bank account and your paycheck going to your account. If you have savings, take some but not more than half--same for other "investments." If you don't have savings or investments, then don't worry about it. Some will be settled in court and have to "sit for a while." Once papers are filed there is an order to do nothing major with the assets (like destroy them, sell them, etc.) and if he does you can motion for contempt of court. 

So just be as fair and reasonable as you can be...do your best.


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## Brewster 59

Depending on how pressed for time you are it might be good to have a list of what you are taking and what you left. Im sure you know records of any liquid assets, investments, retirement funds, actually I would take half of all liquid funds you can get, your going to need them do not take more than half as that wont bode well in court.


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## LVS

Brewster 59 said:


> So I dont know where you are in Ca, Im in the North Bay, if that is somewhat close I will help you move for free. No he absolutley cant try to stop you. If he trys to stop you tell him you will call the sheriff, make sure you have your papers in the car in case you have to call the sheriff.


Thank you Brewster 59 that was so nice from your side but you are so far more than 7 hours driving lol


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## LVS

Affaircare said:


> You'll need a table and chairs, a TV for the kids maybe, some bedding, kitchen stuff and bathing stuff...you get the drift right?


I will take what i can take and as you said what i need 



Affaircare said:


> For money, have a separate bank account and your paycheck going to your account. If you have savings, take some but not more than half--same for other "investments." If you don't have savings or investments, then don't worry about it. Some will be settled in court and have to "sit for a while." Once papers are filed there is an order to do nothing major with the assets (like destroy them, sell them, etc.) and if he does you can motion for contempt of court.
> 
> So just be as fair and reasonable as you can be...do your best.


I already have a separate bank account

about the rest we don't have joint account or savings or liquid i don't have much things to care about just the essential things especially for my kids like mattresses, TV and Play station for my son, our personal stuff and some kitchen stuff..


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## LVS

Affaircare said:


> ....you may want to change your cell phone number and see if you can put the children on YOUR cell phone plan..BUT on the other hand, if he's willing to pay for their plan, that might be a way of allowing him to support the children and it would involve the kids losing all their phone numbers, contacts, etc. Yes, their dad would call and harass them wanting to talk to you etc. but that will happen no matter what because it's a choice he makes to behave that way. So changing your phone number may give you a few days peace and breathing room but it won't last forever. I would move yours at least so he can not disconnect you--but other than that, just turn phones off for a few days while you move and get settled into your new place.
> children!!


When i moved my phone number from his account 5 weeks ago i couldn't do it if he didn't call them and approve it for me so now i am on my own account  
I can open new numbers for them but he will be paying for their old numbers on his account b/c he is on two years contract so he won't pay for the new ones and of course i can't afford to pay for them
i don't know if they will turn their phones off i can't stop them from contacting their friends the situation is hard enough on them. i don't know i need to think about it and talk to them


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## LVS

I decided to call my son and parents tonight
I sent this story to my 3 oldest kids 2 days ago
" The Bridge " http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=65164.0 ( i like to share it with you it is a long story but it talks about me or others in similar situations)

I spoke to my son with heartfelt way (i didn't want to cry or being weak but i couldn't help it i let my emotions express my feelings and i cried)
i told him all i need you to know that i am not leaving your dad for someone else and i hope you understood why i sent you this story...

I am moving out very soon and not by myself but with your brother and sister not b/c of OM but b/c of your dad he is the one who drove me to this decision i know how much it is hard and i know how much it is hurtful but i have no choice as much as it hurts now it is so much less than before and so much less than going back to the same life


I told my parents with confident voice
I took this decision b/c i was between two choices death or life and i chose life

Instead of counting to ten i counted to thousand
I took my decision and i am totally convinced that i am choosing the right 
I didn't take my decision as reaction or when i was angry or wanting revenge. back then i refused to take this decision
but now as i have a clear mind i dare to take it with full confidence that i am doing the right
I took my decision while praying and putting all my willing before God asking him to guide me through his will and to block my wrong decisions and i felt God's touch in my life
All i need is your prayers and don't worry about me i am strong and my power is from my knowledge from my confidence and foremost from God who is strengthening me in every step

I pray for my H I pray that God will guide him to the right path and i hope one day we will be able to be back together 
I can't talk about him the same way he talked about me i can't curse him or mistreat him like he did to me not b/c he doesn't deserve it not b/c i am guilty but b/c i have values that you raised me on them and these values won't let me treat him the same way

I am leaving him with a hope to get back one day together but if he didn't want to i am keeping my way and i will finish what i started.


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## LVS

My son had nothing to say 
My parents gave me their blessing
I feel better i said what i need to say and i was totally honest

I can't leave without telling you that all words won't be enough to describe how grateful i am to all of you


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## turnera

You are an amazing woman, lvs. You will be fine. You will be SO glad that you protected yourself and your kids. 

The only piece of advice I have at this point is that I see a big difference in how you speak to your son and how you speak to your parents. With your son, you approach him in a weak way, as if to beg him to love you and accept you. Being his father's son, I think that is the wrong approach - he will only see it as weakness and look down on you for it. The next time you talk to him, I would like to suggest that you remind yourself you changed his diapers, you guided him, you GAVE him your morals and life skills as a mother should, and he OWES you respect. 

I'm not telling you to tell him that, but rather to hold it in your heart. He's an adult now, and he can decide what he wants. But in the end, he owes you respect as his mother, and he owes you allegiance in what you choose to do. Not to 'side' with you, but to respect your decision and not condemn you. If he tries to do that again, I would ask you to tell him 'I love you, but I am your mother. I am making my own decisions for my family's well-being and I expect you to give me the respect I deserve.'

I think that is the approach you need with him; he will see your side more if you approach him that way. Or at the very least, not be so free with his criticism.


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## LVS

I just want to say it wasn't planned to address him this way but also i wasn't saying what i said to him in a weak way even when i cried my tears expressed my hurt and suffering and my son won't take them as weakness simply b/c he is in his personality and way of thinking more like me not like his father or my father
And if i go back and make back the call i won't be able to talk in different way not this time
Anyway he needed to see this side of me to and i needed to not mask my feelings

(my sister told me that my son is shocked and suffering not believing that his parents are divorcing and is not handling the situation and when i talked to him i felt him crying i wished i can hug him between my arms turnera this really hard)

i know i am using the logic way in my decisions but guided by my heart and the heart cross any logic way when he needs to speak and it won't matter now if he found me weak he will understand later and i don't regret what i said or i felt


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## turnera

I wasn't meaning to criticize you, it's just that the way you talk about him, it makes it sound like he's blaming everything on you, and not his dad, so I didn't want you to feel like you had to make this up to him, you know? I'm worried about you. He can deal with this in his own way, I just want you to be ok. I don't think you need to call back - you've said everything you need to say, and shown him that you are hurting. That's good. He'll come around.


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## Brewster 59

I wish you and your family all the best, you are a great person and have been through a lot. Let us know how the move went. Keep in touch with how things are going for you.

I wish you lived closer so I could have helped you move, it would have been a pleasure to meet you and would have felt good helping someone in need.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> I wasn't meaning to criticize you, it's just that the way you talk about him, it makes it sound like he's blaming everything on you, and not his dad, so I didn't want you to feel like you had to make this up to him, you know? I'm worried about you. He can deal with this in his own way, I just want you to be ok. I don't think you need to call back - you've said everything you need to say, and shown him that you are hurting. That's good. He'll come around.


I know turnera what you meant and i understand your concerns but i wrote what i felt i need to say 

Thank you for all your advices


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## LVS

Brewster 59 said:


> I wish you and your family all the best, you are a great person and have been through a lot. Let us know how the move went. Keep in touch with how things are going for you.
> 
> I wish you lived closer so I could have helped you move, it would have been a pleasure to meet you and would have felt good helping someone in need.


Thank you Brewster 59 for your thoughtfulness and support 
I hope everything will be ok


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## LVS

Now the hardest time is coming

25th July is the day when i get my appartment key
I am so nervous and i am open to any suggestion about moving out

i have one week to be ready 

what do you advice me about living?

do i leave without telling him anything?

do i write a letter for him or email...?

One more thing if i didn't change my kids phone numbers he will track their phones and find us right?
so i can't just take them and the assets that i need and disappear this will turn him to a monster who only wants revenge
What do you think??


----------



## Brewster 59

LVS said:


> Now the hardest time is coming
> 
> 25th July is the day when i get my appartment key
> I am so nervous and i am open to any suggestion about moving out
> 
> i have one week to be ready
> 
> what do you advice me about living?
> 
> do i leave without telling him anything?
> 
> do i write a letter for him or email...?
> 
> One more thing if i didn't change my kids phone numbers he will track their phones and find us right?
> so i can't just take them and the assets that i need and disappear this will turn him to a monster who only wants revenge
> What do you think??


Do not tell him anything no emails no letters take your stuff and go. Actually if he had a gps installed on the cells he could track you with that, ask the YMCA or call the cell phone provider for info on that. You pobably shouldnt even given the move out date here, who knows what he knows.


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## LVS

My daughter told me that he had conversation with her yesterday

They have a family outing by the end of this month on 30-31-1(it is after the time that i picked to move out)she asked him "is my mom invited" he said no (i know the kids need to be in this outing and i will be in my new apartment)(so i won't be able to move out and not contacting him)

He told her that her mom may be moving out before the end of the month (based on our last conversation he is expecting me to move out before the end of this month) so he asked her are you going to leave with your mom
my daughter said you should not ask me this question b/c you are asking in a way that if i move out that means i care for my mom but i don't care for you.......

She told me that her dad is expecting that i move out without my kids

I was clear when i said to him i am taking them with me but what he is trying to do is to make them decide to stay with him (he thinks it will work like this)

They had a long stressful conversation as she said

He is trying to blame her for many things and make her feel guilty for disagreeing with him especially when she said that at the outing time it is her boyfriend 18th BD so her dad was criticizing her for putting her boyfriend ahead and for thinking to miss this time with her dad plus she is always staying in the bedroom instead of spending time with him in the living room and he said just think well b/c you will feel so much guilty when i die and you missed all the time with me.......


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## turnera

I think you will have to deal with him because of the kids, so you should do this as amicably as possible. No trying to be sneaky, but also making it clear that the police are aware that you are afraid of him, so nothing should happen.


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## LVS

I just finish talking with my son
He told me that he heard his father talking to his uncle that we are going to get divorce and that we will have to go to the court for custody and that i will move out by the end of the month and also that he doesn't want it b/c he loves me and want me to stay...

I asked my son what do you think about me moving out he said you both do what you need i don't care b/c i will be with both of you i won't lose anyone

Then he said i feel sorry for the 28 years to let them go like that i said yes you are right and also i feel sorry for the coming years in our life to live them like that he said yes you are right

I said when i move out you and your sister are coming with me so what do you want to take with you 
He said all my toys and play station... we had a cool conversation and i felt relieved

I asked him to not mention anything in front of his dad right now he said why i said b/c it's early he will know on time.


So i don't know but i feel it is going to be easier than i expected(i cross my fingers)



By the way today my D23 called me to tell me that her grandma called her and said that she knew everything i am doing to her son and that i brought the police for him and that's why she doesn't want me to visit her anymore until things are back to normal between me and her son....
(i was still visiting her at morning time about 4 days a week to have coffee together and my sister in law, his brother's wife, we never talked about what's happening in our life b/c they never asked even they know that we are having serious problems)i knew this is going to happen one day especially after i move out but it happened this way maybe it is better for my mother in law she will feel better it is like she threw me out.
It hurts me b/c they have only his side of the story but i understand they are his family no matter what they will be on his side...


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## turnera

Write her a letter.


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## LVS

turnera my mother in law is splitting me black now she won't read my letter and if she did it won't make any change it is useless and at the end she is his mother....


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## LVS

*Will he ever learn to project his trait onto him ????*

Uptown are you there !
I had to go back to this post 



Uptown said:


> Le vieux, as before, I agree with Turnera. As much as you love your H, you cannot help him by staying with him. On the contrary, your staying there likely is detrimental to the both of you. It is harmful to him because you are enabling him to avoid confronting his illness and learning to control it. Because he cannot regulate his emotions very well, he needs to learn how to do self-soothing to calm himself down -- something that the rest of us started learning when we were 4 or 5. Yet, while you are there, you are his soothing object, i.e., he depends on you to help calm him down.


It took me time to admit that what i was reading and what both of you were saying is what i suppose to do..
I was always thinking i am from different culture maybe i should deal with my situation in different way.. But with the passing days i believed more and more that this is the right to be done..



Uptown said:


> Moreover, he also must learn how to deal with the negative feelings he has about himself whenever he makes a mistake or falls short of completing some task. For the past 28 years, he completely avoided dealing with such hurtful thoughts about his inadequacies by projecting all of the blame onto you -- thereby externalizing the flaws and mistakes, getting them outside his body and into you.
> 
> In that way, you have unwittingly been a dumping ground for every issue that he would find hurtful to deal with. And, as I explained earlier, this allowed him to avoid the issues because the projection was done at the subconscious level -- which is why he is able to actually believe the outrageous things he accuses you of doing -- things so absurd that you marveled that any human being would be able to say it and, at the same time, keep a straight face.


Do you think i will stop to be the dumping ground by leaving him. 
IMO he will still believe that it was always my fault and the circumstances ...not his fault as long as he will find someone to listen to his lies and to soothe him he will keep blaming me for the past and everything bad will happen in the future. In his mind "because i left him this is happening in his life" "he is more sick because of me" "he is failing things because his wife left him alone and destroyed all his dreams".....and his family will always believe him and they will dump him more in his illness....



Uptown said:


> If you have any notion that he will appreciate your staying by his side, please let go of that fantasy. Until he completes years of therapy, he will remain incapable of appreciating your sacrifices for longer than a few days -- perhaps a week if you are lucky. He cannot do that because he cannot regulate the strong emotional tides that sweep through him -- sometimes several times a day. They push aside any good feelings he had about you. His feelings are so intense that, to him, they constitute facts and reality itself. That is why you cannot reason with him. For people like your H, they are not interested in finding solutions to a problem but, rather, only in obtaining drama.
> 
> Of course, leaving him is tearing you apart because, like me, the notion of leaving a sick man goes against your religion, everything you were taught as a child, everything your Monk brother is saying, and every fiber of your being. Yet, if you decide that leaving him is what you must do to protect your 12 year old and yourself, that is what you should do. Moreover, it will give your H the opportunity to confront his illness and work on it.


Eventhough i believe i did the right but i also feel guilty and i feel bad and as much as i have hope that he will confront his illness as much as i have fear that he won't...



Uptown said:


> But, yes, you will likely need to start making new friends because you likely will lose the support network that his family has provided -- although, as far as I can tell, they provided you no support with regard to the abusive treatment. When my exW and I separated, she told her family that I was violent and a frequent liar. Actually, those were her traits and she had projected them onto me. So she had started telling them things like that two years earlier and the family had already started drifting away.
> 
> Consequently, I lost five adult step kids and five grand kids. Very painful -- because I had loved them dearly for 16 years (and that has not changed). Indeed, I had helped put two of them through college and given two cars to one of them. But I got my true self back -- the real me instead of the caretaker who was always walking on eggshells. Not a bad trade. No, not bad at all.


*As you said i lost his family support that i never had...*
He was always talking in bad way about his family but i always was defending them and never told them something bad about him, and i always use to find excuses for him when he use to be ugly with them.
But in the other hand, he never found excuses for me, in the contrary, he was criticizing me and mistreating me in front of them and since a very long time he was telling them things bad about me, like if i cook to my kids for the whole week and skipped one day he will tell them and even my family and my friends that i never cook(of course when he is in good mood it won't matter for him if i didn't cook the whole week)
if i take care of him and his things for a whole months and one time i didn't iron his clothes he would say i never care for him...
He was not getting himself new clothes but getting so many extra things for the house and the kids and if i get him any clothes he would criticize me and blame me and yell at me and sometimes return them back to the store and he was always wearing the same clothes, sometimes dirty ones to make everybody see him the victim and i am the selfish and careless person b/c i take care of my outside look and always show a fake smile that hides my suffering...

His family believed him long time ago and they feel pity for him disregarding how he treats his wife and kids. In their mind "of course he will treat them this way when he is unhappy and nobody is caring for him".... He did a good job in that too 
and now the closest person to me i lost her b/c she is his brother's wife not b/c she believe him but b/c she is a part of his family.... 


I knew this was going to happen one day but being expecting it can't lessen my hurt...


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## turnera

The best thing you can do at this point is to look forward, to meeting new people and creating a new 'family' and also to mending fences with your own family if you need to. A lot of people are born into families they don't want, or it's an unhealthy family, and they have to separate themselves from them, and look for a new 'family' to replace the one they should have had. 

In a couple of years - assuming you don't retreat into your shell and never come out and meet people - you are going to be in a much better place. You won't be living with constant pain and belittling and condemnation - and you'll be able to start believing in yourself again. And you'll be able to wake up and be happy and hopeful for the new day.


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## Uptown

> I knew this was going to happen one day but being expecting it can't lessen my hurt...


When I was a teenager, my sister was working at an accounting firm where the owner bad mouthed all her employees to the clients. She was afraid that, if the clients grew attached to an employee, that employee would leave and take the clients with him. So, my sister said, she eventually did quit the firm. And, just like she expected, the former boss-lady said awful things about her to the clients. My sister told me, then, that there is a world of difference between _knowing_ something is going to happen and actually _experiencing_ it. So true. So true.


> Do you think i will stop to be the dumping ground by leaving him.


No, but it will slow down with you further away from him. But, then, why does it matter? As I explained, it is impossible to build up a reserve of good will or appreciation in him. He is too unstable for that. Hence, it will always be "what have you done for me lately?" This means that, even if he were to give you a kiss and a warm hug when you walk out the door, that feeling would be gone the next day, if not within an hour. As is often said by "Nons" like us, a BPDer's feelings are "a mile wide and an inch deep."


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## LVS

It's the sad truth 
you are right uptown and turnera i agree with you i hope the grieve time won't last long b/c i need to stay strong and to not break down
BUT different kind of emotions are fighting inside me between being happy and excited and proud of myself for all what i am doing and being hurt of everything happening caused by him and his family and the grieve for loosing him and loosing the hope that one day he can get better.

I know the few coming days are going to be so hard. I also wish i can stay the time remaining in somewhere else.

I know i am not in physical danger now but everyday is hiding inside it something that hurts deeply and i am trying to protect my kids to not let them feel it with me and this is adding more stress on me...



One more thing people at family law, divorce, and custody told me that i can't leave without him knowing where his kids are going to stay.

so with all what is going on i don't feel secure to leave without legal papers to protect my rights i am thinking to serve him the divorce papers the day i move out.

If you have any suggestions please let me know i feel sooo nervous


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## turnera

That's what I think, too. Have all the legal backing and protection you can get. The papers will hopefully keep him from being able to try to take the kids from you.

I would make sure that YOU have your kids' passports.


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## LVS

Yes i have their passports their green cards and SSN and copies of their birth certificates

One more thing happened

Yesterday my brother in law sent a text message to my D17 he said he wants to talk to her
She asked him about what
He said about what you told your cousin about your dad ruining your mom's reputation. Are you old enough to know? we should talk if not then do not judge your dad b/c he loves you more than you think

(she asked me what should she say i asked her what do you want she said i don't want to talk to him i said do whatever makes you feel comfortable)

She replied Honestly i don't want to talk about this b/c i have nothing to do with it.. what i told my cousin was between me and her.. I considered her as a best friend.. If she told you about it then it's not my problem..
whatever happen between my parents i don't want to be involved in it.. I don't want anybody to tell me my mom is wrong or my dad is wrong.. they are both my parents and nobody can change that.. and if somebody is to talk to me about anything it's them..

He replied Whatever you tell my kids about their uncle better be true or you will have problems with me. I don't care about your What i care is you and your brother getting wrong information from either one. 

She replied As i told you i trusted my cousin as a best friend, and i was telling her about my problems including the one related to my mom and dad.. It's really not my problem that she told you.. I didn't feel comfortable talking about this with anybody else and now i don't even feel comfortable talking about it to her..

He said if you have something bad to say about your dad do not say it to your cousins after all he is their uncle..

she replied I realize that now even though i wasn't saying anything bad, i was just talking of what i am living and what i am witnessing from both parents, which again should have been between me and my cousin.. It's whatever now though..

His last text was; This conversation is going no where. If you ever one day want to know what i know not what i think. JUST ASK

She said to me; i am just curious to know what he was going to say
I told her whatever he has your father suppose to say it to you not your uncle.
What he cares about is telling his own family the story from his side you blew it up when you said what you said to your cousin.. things he didn't want them to know(b/c his wife and kids doesn't speak our language so he tells them what he wants them to know)
So now he separated me of his wife and separated my daughter of her cousin

Am I right with my analysis?Do you think i should tell her to go ( i don't feel he is the one who suppose to talk about that maybe i should do something to stop him but i think she did well with her answers)


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## turnera

Yep. Sounds like two sons cut of the same cloth, to me. I wonder if your niece recognizes the same problems with HER dad?


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## LVS

nope I always wished my H was dealing with his family like his brother does

My brother in law in so many occasions was in my side against his brother...
but when things got to this point they all stuck together and this is something i like in them they are together at the hard situations i don't expect them to be with me against my h not when things get to this point.. I wish they know like that they are hurting him instead of helping him to heal...


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## ADM

Dear LVS, i understand you have gone through a lot. I read the last two pages and am feeling your pain. What you are experiencing with family and the rest is pretty much the same with me. People change their position and points of views when you take action. What I once considered best friend now turns to be my husband's worst adviser. But that's life and there are colorful people into it, they're always be.

I am sure you will get over all this one day and please don't look back. Look forward!!! Life is shiner ahead.

XX


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## LVS

Thank you ADM for your time and support

The hurt is so deep because i am feeling the lost of my marriage of my husband of his family of my sister in law (my friend)...

I wish he can feel the truth and i hope one day he will wake up

I know he hurt me and hurt our kids and also hurt himself without knowing that he did..
I don't know why i don't want to lose him but i am going to lose him because that's what i need to do to survive..


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## turnera

LVS, don't forget to reach out and make some friends.


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## LVS

Different kind of emotions are fighting inside me between 
1-being happy, excited, proud of myself for all what i am doing 
2-being hurt of everything happening caused by him or his family 
3-the grieve for loosing him and loosing the hope that one day he can get better and loosing the big dream of being a family all together
4-feeling insecure unsafe worried..... 


Today i was stuck back in my dream and was hoping that something will happen and everything will be fixed and we will be back together.

Help me i can't think right am i doing childish behavior? am i going crazy? is it b/c i am scared from the unknown? or b/c i don't want to lose him? or what????
I can't find a reason why i am looking for a miracle to happen now?


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## turnera

What you're feeling is completely normal. I would try to look at it like this: You married a man you had complete hope and trust in, to provide for you and live a long, happy life with. But things started happening that made you wonder why it wasn't as happy as you thought it would be. You settled. You could deal with it. But it kept getting worse, which is what happens in abuse: you give in, so they take more; you give in again, so they take even more - part of the game, to always 'win.'

So you decided this was all you could hope for, until you started suffering too much and realized your own well-being was at risk. For your own self, and for your children, you decided it can't continue, and you have to give up your dream of happiness with him, because he's not playing the same 'game' as you. Now you're grieving what you wanted, but got cheated out of.

LVS, you CAN be happy again, down the road. At the very least, you'll be able to wake up and not have to prepare yourself for a day full of stress and unhappiness. And think how much of a better mother you're going to be, when you are not so miserable.


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## ADM

Tell me about it!

LVS, I think we are in denial! We have dreamt so much of an "end" with our family and H and nothing else, that is quite impossible to adapt to the new circumstances.

I agree with turnera about the end of the road and wakeing up with other kinds of stress, the real ones in stead of serving our lives to someone that doesn't recognise the effort as he should.


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## LVS

turnera and ADM I agree with all what you said 

BUT i was saying before i don't want him in my life i don't love him anymore if the love ever existed...He made a good job by taking away every feeling of love
and now i am thinking in different way i want him back in my life do you think my anger was guiding me..

When i was forcing my boundaries i seemed mean and this was triggering his reactions and he felt i am not supporting him with his tries to get better and also by doing that i made him feel that i hate him and i don't want him in my life not look at him not touch him

Do you think i was able to do something else to help him ????
Do you think if i wasn't depressed i could solve the situation in better way????

I am having this feeling of guilt again and this is one more reason to make me feel i want a miracle to happen

Maybe i needed a space to work on myself and strengthen myself to cope better with the situation and keep my marriage and my family together 
But what i am doing now is breaking everything

I am sorry if i am confusing you 

I have all these feelings fighting inside me

I know he didn't give me the space i asked for 
I know he pushed me to my decision after giving him all the chances that any other woman might not give 
I know i counted till thousands instead of ten 
I know i picked the wise decision and 
I know i deserve better life with my kids

BUT i am still having the other thoughts making me doubt everything


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## turnera

It's normal to doubt. Just expect it. You'll be fine. It doesn't seem like it now, but you will.

The ONLY thing you could have done differently that maybe would have helped him, IMO, is to have left him many years ago. But even then it's unlikely he would have changed.


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## LVS

turnera you know while reading your reply and before getting your point When you said the ONLY thing i could have done differently... I had my heart beating fast OMG there was something i was able to do and i didn't do it before..i had a moment of deep guilt and self blame 
But when i reached the end of your post i started laughing  thanks for making me laugh even with teary eyes

mmmmm Yes! SADLY you are right !!!


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## LVS

I have a question

They have a family outing to San Fransisco another county
for three days 30 31rst July and 1rst August he is going to take my kids with him

What do you think shall i postpone the moving out until they come back?


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## turnera

It might make sense.


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## ADM

LVS, I am probably at your son's age but I feel your pain and I know what you are going through. You are eventually frightened and you think the atmosphere of the road you have taken is a little chilly...in reality it's just the freshness of the spring coming towards you. Feel the beat of your heart that is making that noise not because you think you are wrong, it is because you are now hugging freedom, you can do whatever you want in your life, you have opened new windows and let in new streams. I am feeling the same when I wake up during night or morning, yet again I feel the light at the end of the tunnel and the freshness of that air I spoke you about further up. Let it in and let it blow  LOL I came to the conclusion all this that I feel same as you is because I had lost confidence on me and wasn't thinking I was able to do such a big thing, but I am doing it and it will just be fine soon...and so do you. You will figure it out it's just the new thing and what you are able to do now that makes you look the way you do, but it's all you who has done all that road so look at it, enjoy and praise yourself.

Life will be marvelous 

I haven't encountered someone like you in a long time and I follow you because you give me strength


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## LVS

Thank you ADM for your bright letter full of life and hope and encouragement
I wish you the best that life can give

As for me now still early to think this way b/c i am a person who also wants to give each situation its right for me now still time of grieve and fear
Grieve for the lost of H and family and dream that i lived with 28 years

Fear of the coming days and the unknown

Those feelings are going to accompany me for a while
It doesn't mean i won't enjoy freedom I will  Hopefully nothing bad will happen....


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## LVS

I don't think i am going to postpone the move out 
In fact now i don't know what's going to happen i am nervous

I went to the post office to change my address and my kids address they were out of forms they asked me to fill the request application online so i did

They sent 3 letters to the three of us to the current address to inform us that our address has being changed

My H is the one who gets the mail so he got it and gave it to our son to take it home and he left and didn't come back yet.

He didn't open it but i think he knows what is in the letters. because from the outside he can read that it is about change of address.

He is by his mother's house it is midnight he never stay in her house so long..


Any advice?


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## turnera

Just be calm and sure of what you are doing.

You are doing nothing wrong. You are taking care of your life as you need to. Your husband had plenty of opportunities your entire marriage to HEAR you, to SEE you in pain, and to CHANGE. He didn't. Now you are stopping depending on him and taking care of things yourself.


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## LVS

After i came back from work my daughter told me about the conversation she said

He called my D23 and kept her on the phone while talking to our D17 and S12 
He said because our relationship got to the end and your mom is not willing to live with me anymore and because i know that your mom is looking for another apt so i don't want her to take you and live in an unsafe neighborhood or cheep apt or soo far of me(he still doesn't know the address b/c the post office just mentioned about the request to change the address but didn't give the new address)(by the way i know the apt that i found is only one bedroom but better than our current apt and in better community and safer than our place plus close to him ).
He said that's why i decided to leave the apt and go live with my mom and you stay here with your mom and i can see you during her work days
My mom and brothers disagree with me they said that my wife decided to leave so she should be the one who leaves the apt not me But i can't let this happen i want you to have a better life
He continued I know i was able to be mean to your mom and make her life hell and take her to the court and do so many things to hurt her but i don't want even she doesn't want me anymore and she probably has the divorce papers ready with her... I always want the family but your mom wanted the divorce. I tried all what i can do to get her back but she didn't want.
I am going to leave the apt for her so she will be free by herself...(he said something about being free to be with whoever i want to be with) and then he said don't tell her that i am leaving until i leave....


What i think:
Well kind of sounds good but 
1- He knows that i requested the change of address that's why he spoke to my kids(he was pretending that he didn't know i found an apt. He has a plan but totally clear for me what i can see is that he wants to look like the victim and also the good guy...)
2- The payment for the apartment and utilities are more than the new one 
3- I already signed the contract for a year of lease

What is going to happen is
1- I am going to start moving out tomorrow and if he won't be here it's better maybe i will be able to move out in only one day
2- I gave notice to the rental office of the current apartment that i am leaving before the end of the month and i told them my situation so they won't tell him ( and they already know about his rage b/c they last summer they gave him a warning about the screaming at night time and slapping doors...)
3- He will need to return to the apartment b/c he needs to give notice a month before leaving and he didn't do that.


What do you think???


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## Brewster 59

LVS said:


> After i came back from work my daughter told me about the conversation she said
> 
> He called my D23 and kept her on the phone while talking to our D17 and S12
> He said because our relationship got to the end and your mom is not willing to live with me anymore and because i know that your mom is looking for another apt so i don't want her to take you and live in an unsafe neighborhood or cheep apt or soo far of me(he still doesn't know the address b/c the post office just mentioned about the request to change the address but didn't give the new address)(by the way i know the apt that i found is only one bedroom but better than our current apt and in better community and safer than our place plus close to him ).
> He said that's why i decided to leave the apt and go live with my mom and you stay here with your mom and i can see you during her work days
> My mom and brothers disagree with me they said that my wife decided to leave so she should be the one who leaves the apt not me But i can't let this happen i want you to have a better life
> He continued I know i was able to be mean to your mom and make her life hell and take her to the court and do so many things to hurt her but i don't want even she doesn't want me anymore and she probably has the divorce papers ready with her... I always want the family but your mom wanted the divorce. I tried all what i can do to get her back but she didn't want.
> I am going to leave the apt for her so she will be free by herself...(he said something about being free to be with whoever i want to be with) and then he said don't tell her that i am leaving until i leave....
> 
> 
> What i think:
> Well kind of sounds good but
> 1- He knows that i requested the change of address that's why he spoke to my kids(he was pretending that he didn't know i found an apt. He has a plan but totally clear for me what i can see is that he wants to look like the victim and also the good guy...)
> 2- The payment for the apartment and utilities are more than the new one
> 3- I already signed the contract for a year of lease
> 
> What is going to happen is
> 1- I am going to start moving out tomorrow and if he won't be here it's better maybe i will be able to move out in only one day
> 2- I gave notice to the rental office of the current apartment that i am leaving before the end of the month and i told them my situation so they won't tell him ( and they already know about his rage b/c they last summer they gave him a warning about the screaming at night time and slapping doors...)
> 3- He will need to return to the apartment b/c he needs to give notice a month before leaving and he didn't do that.
> 
> 
> What do you think???


Well I kinda think that it really doesnt matter what his game is, or his motivation, its game over baby and tommorrow your outta dodge.


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## ADM

Amazing how resourceful and manipulative this man can be!

I would advice you stick on your plan and keep calm, be prepared for every eventuality and just do fastest you can so he can see things happening for real. I hope you find the strength and courage you need to do this.

I, myself, have had a veryyyyyy difficult day when I moved out. I had sent him an e mail asking whether he pretended anything on furniture and things I bought. He had said NO. Then again I said was he sure, so he reassured me. Then, the day I was supposed to move out, my son had very high fever with the emergency over. My H had found the time to find a mediator and he lied to me we had to go to a shrink to consult for the kid how he was handling divorce. I still remember the lady attacking me and that how we left that office. I didn't understand why he did it. Then, when I asked him to leave the ap and go with the kid so I could move things out, he cam very soon and stood for long in front of the truck. I didn't have time to look at him cuz I was on the top of furniture inside the truck arranging them. Then, he said he had things to do so I take the kid. I said OK. Then I saw he had called me like 100 times and the truck was about to leave. I called him what he had to say thinking may be he has an excuse why he left the stroller in the middle of the street and left, and he threatened he would call the police and tell them somebody entered his house and that they "stole" his stuff. He said he would ask them to go after the truck and stop it and inside that truck was the son and the H of my friend who drove 900 km to help me with the stuff.

I don't know where I found the strength and courage to tell him that he had agreed and that we had consulted a lawyer before taking any action and that it was up to him to do anything he wanted but in a very calm and secure way. I was wondering because in the truck there was the H and S of my friend who sheltered us for 3 months. Then I saw my H out in the parking going around. He came up and was checking the house and his eyes were strange. I made him a coffee  and then I repeated I had asked him and that I hoped he would understand he was the one to let things happen as they should.  He asked me what was I going to do with furniture. I told him "Well I am going to give it to charity and leave in the comfort he made for us, right." Well, the comfort was this 4 walls he is claiming so much, every other thing inside was bought from me and if it wasn't for a sofa and the furniture for TV I left in the ap, it would be completely empty. Next day I did last check up for my son and left. I cried a lot during the way. It was raining just like in the movies, like hell but I kept on doing this 900 km and arrived safe to my new home. Later, the son of my friend told us he had seen the sadest man on earth and that his eyes made him feel sorry for him...he used the word: desperated eyes man. Who would have told that....

Now I feel your worries and now the stress you are going through. Just keep tight. This TOO shall pass and you will be very proud of you.


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## Uptown

LVS, I love it when a good plan comes together. I hope all goes well!

ADM, it is simply heartbreaking to read your description of your move-out day. So sad for everyone involved. The downpour of rain was so fitting to what, in all respects, was a sad end to your marriage -- but a bright beginning to the rest of your life. So I would like to think that, somewhere, you saw a silver lining in the dark clouds on that fateful day.


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## turnera

LVS, you're doing fine. Just keep on course. He can do whatever he wants.


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## LVS

My dear friends, 

I know it is going to be long and sorry for that but I loved to share it with you.

Yesterday was a sunny day 
Somehow I wished it was raining so the weather share with me my sad feelings.
But for some reason it was sunny to share with me my happy feelings.
Because the sun clarifies my mind and illuminates my way I am full of hope and happiness because God is guiding and protecting me 
God planned for me on my moving out day.. 

I can see God's fingerprints clear in different incidents in my life
* The police visited my house on the same day that my H set to move into my bedroom. And I was praying when almost everyone was telling me I should report my situation to the police in my prayers I was telling God that I don't want to contact the police and God planned it in different way.(i was extremely happy when the police officers came to my house without me contacting them)

* Saturday I asked all my coworkers to pray to let the spirit of God be the leader in his conversation with my kids 
The comfort and peace of mind that I felt after praying was unbelievable 
And wow my H decided to move out, no matter what are his intentions, and I could never imagine this might happen at the same day that I am planning to move out 
I believe coincidences happened in life but not this much.

* Instead of going to a shelter and I was looking to do so but all the ways to go to a shelter closed in my face
I started looking for an apt and I didn't plan to live close just I was going to stay at the same school district for my son but the apt that I found is still close to everything my kids used to do and also close to their father.
It was the last apt I was going to see and I loved the features of this apt when I was looking on the internet but it was more expensive than all the other apt I went to see it by curiosity b/c it was close to my current apt but guess what I got it with better rental price than all the other apt b/c it is a bond apt which is supported by the government for low income people I found the best when for all the other apt I had to find someone to sign with me b/c of my low income(and who will sign with me I don't have close friends and my D23 couldn't do that b/c she get cash money and to sign with me she needs pay stabs or checks) but with this apt I didn't need anybody else to sign with me 

I didn't want to live in a neighborhood where I don't feel secure and my kids safe I found the best community apt, the best price, the best location, and the best apt....  it's not only luck that worked here..

This is how I see the hand of God leading my way closing ways and opening other ways 
I am not a perfect person but I pray, my parents are praying for me and so many friends also are praying for me and I have faith and I believe that God is not going to leave me even if I am totally alone and even when so many times I forgot that God was there but HE WAS and I can see his fingerprints through everything I went through. Yes everything...

AND I MOVED OUT 

Thanks for your time


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## turnera

{{{LVS}}}

I am SO proud of you!

How are your kids taking it?

Call me if you need to!


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## ADM

<3 Congrats on keeping faith alive all the time, you natyrally had your chances and you are doing great. 

I am so happy for you, again congrats!


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## Uptown

Congratulations, LVS!!!! I am so happy for you! We all have been looking forward to this day for months.


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## LVS

Thanks for your sweet words and it wasn't only God or my effort for what I accomplished till now but also it was YOU Thank you...

My kids are so excited they loved it 

Yes I love it when a good plan comes together.... 

Now let's be back to update you.

Him moving out to his mom's house gave me the opportunity to have a peaceful moving out without him being around I worked hard with my kids I had nobody to help me only my daughter's boyfriend was able to help with mattresses and few things for about an hour and in my van with my kids helping starting by 4:00 pm ending by 2.00 am we were exhausted but excited and something inside me was telling me to finish moving out in that day...

He called my kids by midnight asking them what they were doing and why they didn't call him and then I told them let him know why 
He was so mad he asked about the apt but as I told my kids they said that I am going to email him and tell him details
He was blaming my kids for hiding information but thank God for some reason he thought we are not done moving out he said to my kids that I have no right to make them work with me and he is coming in the morning to watch me while moving out to make sure I am not making them carry anything plus I have no right to take anything from the apt only my clothes.........

My kids where nervous I comforted them by telling them we are doing the right thing don't not worry your dad left the house and left everything for us so we are not taking everything we are not taking even the half of the assets.. 
And we continued moving out..

Monday morning I had a call from my daughter blaming me for moving out after what her dad did to let us be comfortable
I explained her everything but her mind is blocked and didn't want to understand...
She said do whatever you need to do together in your life but keep my brother and sister away of that I said you are right but you are telling the wrong person about that you are scared to talk to your dad so you put the blame on me..
Briefly she hanged the phone upset...

My H reported to the police that his wife stole his kids and things from the apt and his car and left...
I don't know how I got the strength when he police officer called me and spoke to him in a very confident voice
The PO said he is by my H apt and he needs to know my side of the story.

I told him I was trying to get hold of officer X b/c she knows my case, last week I couldn't get hold of her his positive action yesterday made me feel I don't need help but his phone call to my kids at midnight scared me back and he said he is going to destroy me
I tried today to call her I needed to let her know I moved out from a DV house but she was off today and they said someone else is going to contact me and assist me when you called I thought you are the one....

I told him my H already knows I am moving out before the end of this month for unknown reasons he decided to move out Sunday without even telling me and I already signed a lease contract and Sunday was my moving out day so it is his problem if he didn't communicate with me...

The PO said but you took things from the house I said I only took the mattresses not the beds and the TV for my son and personal things and few things I paid for them plus some food for my kids 
PO said that my H needs back his car it is under his name I said well he needs to wait for the court order b/c I filed for divorce but still didn't find the person who will serve him the papers. And I can' t give him the car b/c I have no other vehicle to get my kids needs the PO asked does he have another car I said yes and my car he never used it I paid for it and he registered it under his name and I am paying all the maintenance it needs even two days ago my H gave me the DMV papers to renew the registration...

The PO said the kids need their father
I said of course they need their father and their mother too and I am not willing to stop him from seeing them unless he acted stupid He needs to prove he can act in a mature way that he still didn't prove it till now the kids doesn't have to live this stress and what is happening is not their fault 
He said you are right
I said I am going to try to communicate with him by email to find a way to see them but the way he is acting he is scaring me what if he took the kids and didn't bring them back to me please can you give me any advice?
He said you can go to the court and apply for ex parte hearing but he needs to be served 24 hours ahead.

Yesterday was a cool day nothing to mention
I sent him an email yesterday still didn't get a reply

In the email I mentioned back that based on our last conversation I worked to move out before the end of July... 
and I told him that I already signed the lease contract and I said that he doesn't need to worry it is a safe apt and safe community and the kids are going to like it...

I said to that I filed for divorce and it is a good way to protect our both rights.
And the email is a good way to communicate about the kids matters

I said I know they planned to go to San Francisco next weekend so I only need to know where you are going to be how long you are staying and when you are going to bring the kids back to me....



I thought this will give me a legal support and he will turn them back to me....

Sorry so long 

Any advice?


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## turnera

Sounds about as good as you can expect. My only advice is get out and get to know your neighbors, soon!


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## ADM

So brave of you, yet it is complicated with the person you are dealing with. You have been lucky with the police and you have been doing the right thing by keeping it in peace nad showing confident...see 

I remember my lawyer told me back than he could do nothing at all if my H decided to keep the child  so I cannot say anything  sorry about that. My H has not taken the child yet so it has to be seen what will he do...if he can handle a toddler, leave his job and do what I do no...that's fine by me LOL  at least he will finally recognise what it is like to take responsabilities 

j/k but truth must be told and so it is.

Keep us updated pls.


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## Uptown

Yes, LVS, sounds like you did very well. Is it important to have the divorce papers served before he takes the kids to SF? That is, would you be on stronger legal ground if he decided not to come back with them?


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## LVS

My son called his dad while i wasn't home His dad told him that he reported everything to the police(i didn't tell my kids i don;t want them to know all the nasty details but he did  )

He also told my son that my oldest son is so angry at me and that he said i am not his mother and he doesn't want to talk to me anymore

He told my son too that the PO said i can take my kids with me and he can't stop me and if he took them back without my permission he will be in trouble and that he needs to wait until the court order

He also asked my son that if at anytime i left him home alone to contact him and let him know my son responded no dad i won't tell you b/c you will tell the police his dad answered him that to not worry he knows how he will take care of his own business


I also know that if he take my kids he can keep them and i can't do anything until the court order probably he doesn't know that yet but soon or late he will know...
That's why i wrote him email but he still didn't reply

I am going to try to send from gmail i heard that they give report if the email has being opened i am going to look out

If you have any advice i appreciate it!!!!

i just read your post uptown and you have right i am still looking for someone to serve him very soon

I don't think i will let him take the kids anywhere if he didn't reply to my email


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## turnera

Call the city court office and ask them if they have someone who will help serve papers.


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## sisters359

I am still looking forward to the day I'll have my own place-my kids live in our house and I have to find a place to be when their dad is with them. So you are "ahead" of me, and I congratulate you! I have followed your struggles and you are so smart and capable! Keep gathering your resources around you and seek professional advice whenever you have doubts--do not let your fear or guilt make decisions! You will be fine and your kids will be fine. 

May God continue to hold you in His Hands!


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## LVS

Thanks sisters359 and i hope everything will be ok with and soon you will be in your own place
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

Finally i got hold of my neighbor she is willing to serve my H the divorce papers They are leaving tomorrow morning to SF
so today the last day to serve him the papers
wish me luck
One more thing my H didn't reply to my email and my D23 called me yesterday and asked me to write her a paper as permission for her take my kids and she said she will bring them back Sunday
I don't know he will be able legally to keep them or even stay their wi h them
What do you think ?


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## ADM

I feel you are going under e very intensive emotionall stage, just rememeber; this too shall pass, once he has the papers, you will be fine...till then, I wish you all the luck you need and all that strength that will encourage you.


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## Brewster 59

What do the pappers you had drawn up say about custody? As I understand right now you both have custodial rights, the standard make it so niether parent can leave the state without the others permission. If he is not served legally he has full parental rights and so do you.


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## LVS

The papers request that the physical custody is with me and the legal custody is joint, the visitation are for the respondent and should be scheduled with mutual agreement.

There is no court order yet if he is served we both have restraining order and we can't leave with the kids to another state or another county without the other spouse permission

If he is not served he can go where ever he wants with the kids and nobody can stop him...


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## LVS

I waited to post until my kids came back.
it wasn't his intention to take them away but to turn their heads by talking bad about their mom

My D17 told me i know what my dad is trying to do but instead of hating you i am hating him for what he is saying 

I told her no don't hate him and don't even get angry. When you hear him talking like that it means he needs more prayers just pray for him so God will open his eyes to see what is rightand implant love in his heart instead of hatred

Yes i said that to my D17 but it really hurts and saddens me what he is doing He said let her boyfriend help her with money because he is not willing to pay me a penny

He said he is not willing to take my kids until the court decision after two months i don't know what he is talking about if he means about the divorce or if he didi
He is willing to not take them and not to pay for support.

After 10 days school will start and my H is trying to pressure me by deciding not to take care of our kids until the court decision and in my work days i can't pick up my son from school and this is really hard


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## turnera

Be creative, and find other ways to find help. Contact your city's help organizations, United Way, stuff like that, to see how you can get help. Also, talk to his school and tell them what's going on and ask them for advice on what to do.


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## LVS

Thanks turnera, talking to the school is a good idea b/c he is knowing how pressures are going to be on me b/c of my work schedule

I am trying other ways 
I applied to the county offices for food stamps
I met with the social worker on Friday
My wage made me eligible for this service but b/c we are permanent resident and my brother in law is our sponsor so they need to add his income to mine and with that i won't be eligible for any help. The worker asked me to get the information needed about my brother in law and they are going to send it to the authorized people to question him b/c he signed a contract with USA that he is responsible of our well being and why now i am applying for food stamps if he should take care of me...This is a new point that i can use for pressure them but i need to ask a lawyer first...

I told the worker that this is going to take long time and maybe my brother in law won't give me information 
i need emergency help before i broke down b/c i am charging my credit card a lot

He gave me names of organization that can give me assistance
I am willing to apply for them 
wish me luck

All my friends at work didn't feel comfortable to serve him the divorce papers and my neighbor doesn't feel comfortable to go to his mother's house

So my last chance is to find a sheriff department to serve him i went yesterday but it was after their hours of operation so i am going back today hope this won't take time

At the end of my post i would like to say that even though i am going through a lot of responsibilities and obligations but i am happy with the feeling i am living the feeling of peace and freedom 

Thank you my friends


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## LVS

I sent the divorce papers to the sheriff department and they might serve him within a week hopefully not longer..


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## Uptown

LVS, sending the divorce papers to the sheriff is such a watershed event -- you have been working towrd this goal, getting all your ducks in a row, for many months. Now the ball is launched and rolling forward. Be proud of yourself, sweet lady! We are.


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## ADM

Congrats LVS! I came just to see how are you doing. Apparently you are doing great!!!

Xx


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## LVS

Thank you ADM and thank you uptown for the encouragement I am proud of so many things i am doing now and i wasn't one day expecting myself to be able to do them 
Lately, i am clapping a lot on my shoulders lol

Little update

*He still didn't reply to my email*. His brother sent a message to my D17 while i was at work he asked her if they can meet with them yesterday so they spent time together b/c their cousin and his daughter from other state are visiting 

I told her no b/c if your dad wants you to be with him the communication should be through me not through my kids
She told her dad that and her dad started to accuse her for being by my side and no matter how much she tried to defend herself he finds a way to blame her 

And he was back talking in a bad way about me and that i would never leave a marriage of 28 years if i don't have a boyfriend 

Then he said that no body wants to talk to me they hate me even his brother asked him since ten years why he is staying with me but he didn't want to leave me and now he is still under shock not believing i did that (wow i remember the book called "I hate you don't leave me") than he said if your mom won't let you come i will have to tell my cousin that she is divorcing me.......

Hurts and hurts and hurts all his words to my kids show loveless, careless and hostility i know i should expect that but i still believe deeply inside me that something will happen and change him and we might be back together but each time he act like this way he sends me far away 

My hope is in God not in my H. Should i keep hope of getting back together or i let go 
Days will tell

*I think now i need to email him back to let him know one more time that i don't take any message through my kids.
He is the only one who suppose to ask for them and no matter what are his feelings toward me we are still parents and we need to communicate together for the sake of the kids *

Is there anything i can add or change ?
Any opinion is welcome!


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## LVS

*I am HAPPY and my happiness is coming from my inside NO MATTER WHAT
I feel peace and freedom
I feel i am flying while my feet are touching the ground
I don't regret anything i did because i did the right and because with all what i did i feel the blessing coming from above 
I will teach my kids to enjoy life and whoever is going to join our world is more than welcome in only one condition to be a happy person no matter what *


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## turnera

That's a great view of life, LVS. You're doing fine; just trust yourself. Call me tomorrow if you want to.


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## Wisp

Keep on track , be strong for yourself and your children. Time will prove to all that you are the far better person.


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## LVS

I wish you all the best
I am so happy I never was this excited to go back home
I use to love going to work to enjoy my time away and find life also away no matter how hard my work is it was heaven compared to my life at home....
Now i can't wait until my schedule is over to rash back home and see my kids i feel so happy and i would fight to not let anything take this feeling away from me... 

But i still need to tell you about my problems

I don't understand how should i deal with my H or how i can get him out of his silent treatment

He is still refusing to communicate with me about the kids and i don't want to be a mean person but to be nice is going to bring me down and this is what i don't want

Today was an example 
It was my son's first day at school, b/c it is my work day, and b/c my H is not taking his responsibilities so my son was going to walk back from school and my D17 said she is going to walk with him.

But my D17 called me at work confused not knowing what to do b/c her sister called her and yelled at her...
We were still talking when my D23 called me so i hang up with my second daughter and my oldest daughter was asking me and guilt me saying how her brother and sister are going to walk all the way back from school am i crazy to let them do that? 
I told her so what so many kids are walking to school and back from school why you are upset 
she said my dad called me and he said he is going to pick up my brother from school but he needs the address and b/c i didn't give it to him he was yelling cursing and calling me names... We need to give him the address i don't understand why you are doing like that....
I said ok let him bring your brother to the gate but do not give him the apt number
That's what happened but i felt bad after that i didn't want to give him the address this way and this is like proving that he is still controlling things and i felt like a right was stolen from me....

(I called back my D23 and told her i don't blame you for talking to me this way but you need to let your dad stop using you. Dealing with your brother and sister's things is our responsibility me and your dad not yours you should not let him put you between us he needs to communicate with me and you need to take care of yourself.... She agreed with me and we hang up)


One more thing happened today my H asked my kids to go with him to his brother's house to meet with his cousins
My D17 called me back at work and asked if they can go she said she is going to walk with her brother to her grandmas and they are going to leave all together to her uncle's house I said ok you go
But when i left work it was 9 30 pm i sent my daughter a message to see if i am going to pick them up or their dad is going to meet me by the gate to exchange them she said we are close to the gate and dad is going to drop us their
I called her and said no he suppose to wait for me you should not walk alone at night even inside the complex
But he left them walking alone I feel mad and it was irresponsible behavior... All what he is doing is pushing me more away...

Now i need advice for this
My D17 said they are going on Sunday with the cousins to another county and they are going to take my kids with them

What i am thinking is i need to be firm and put a condition if they want my kids to go with them not only b/c Sunday is one of my days off but my H needs to communicate with me even if my second daughter is going to be there.

What do you think am i right or should i let them go without insisting on him to communicate ?


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## turnera

If I were you, I would set very HARD, STRONG boundaries over when and how he can take the kids. For example, if he won't communicate with you, he can't get the kids. If you have to, take the kids' phones away for the time being. If you don't set this rule now, he will run all over it just to spite you. It will be a rough two or three weeks with the kids, but you need to explain to all of them that you two adults HAVE to set up an amicable arrangement, and if he's unwilling to 'play' you have to be strict for now to protect your family's situation. They may be mad or confused, but that's ok. Once the dust settles, the routine will fall into place. 

If he doesn't talk to you, he doesn't get the kids. Tell your lawyer you are doing this and why. In writing.


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## LVS

Hello my friends hope everything is well with you
It has been a while i didn't update my thread

Well First he is served with divorce papers two days ago, I took the proof of service to the court now he has thirty days to contest..

I am doing great with my kids i know life is hard but i decided to be happy no matter what and that's how i am.

Always there is room for bad things to happen.
He still didn't communicate with me and doesn't want to communicate.

Sunday my D23 came and took her brother and sister and said they are going to have dinner somewhere with their dad.

BUT they went to my in laws and there he was planning for a meeting with them he spend more than 3 hours talking to them 
Good that my D17 recorded all the conversation on her phone
I heard it. It was so bad I can't believe how he was twisting the facts to be from his side wow i am glad i have documented everything so i have a proof of every lie he was saying.(but the bad side is my little son's mind is full of what his dad said and he is trying to guilt me for everything happened that i am the one who broke the family and filed for divorce and left home and took them away from their dad.....)

What saddens me that he is putting our kids in bad situation first i will need to talk to them to clear things and they are going to know things they don't need to hear about hmmm.
Second he is asking my youngest kids to do something to pressure me to change my mind and go back to him.
After treating me as trash and talking lies and making me look a very bad woman wife and mother he wants them to convince me to come back to him.hehh

Can you picture what ugly things he said during the 3 hours.....

He ended his meeting with them by saying he is not going to see them anymore or talk to them because he want them all the time with him not like i want and if they are not willing to do anything to make me change my mind that means they agree with me and they like the situation as it is so they don't need to see or talk to their father.

Monday my D23 came from her work to talk to her dad and also she took her brother and sister and one more time my D17 recorded the conversation also he was blaming them for not doing anything and when my D17 said that it is not their responsibility to do that and we need to solve our problems together without putting them in the middle he raised his voice at her and while talking one more time she said that she didn't feel that her mom did something wrong after all what was happening he started yelling at her and than she had fight with her sister and left the house bare feet at 10.00 pm and came back home crying all the way 15 min walking. And what he did? He took the side of our oldest D and was telling her that her sister is acting like me...

Ok they left and he told them that he is not going to talk to them anymore or answer his phone when they call or get my son from school

Today my D17 suppose to walk with her brother from school to home but her dad called her and asked her to tell me to pack clothes for my son and he is going to pick him up from school and he is going to keep him during my work days...

What do you think?
Is there anything i can do while waiting the court order?


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## turnera

I was just thinking about you last night.

You can tell the school that he is not to pick them up, that you think he is a flight risk. That should tie up a week or two. Ask your lawyer. 

You need to tell your son the truth, about abuse and what it looks like. I'm sure at his age he thinks abuse is only hitting. He doesn't understand belittling someone, making them question themselves, criticizing them all the time, all that stuff. You might even want to read to him from the books you have on mental abuse so he can understand what his dad put you through. I think this is VITAL, or else he will grow up thinking to be just like his dad.

Just keep talking to your kids. All the time. Don't let a gap separate you. Tell them EVERYTHING you are thinking, for the time being, until the court order sorts everything out. 

For instance, show them how, when he said he would have nothing to do with them UNLESS they convinced you to go home, that he is USING them as pawns, not as children he loves. Tell them that if he loved them properly, he would NEVER make them feel guilty or accuse them of taking sides. Show them how YOU are wanting them to have both parents in their lives, but all their father wants is to win.

Oh, and take your daughter's phone to someone who can transcribe or copy her recordings, before they get erased.


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## LVS

I have all the conversations already on CD's and also saved in my Hotmail

Now he is going to have my son (without my daughter)Wednesday through Saturday my work days
I know he is going to poison his thoughts and try to turn him more against me 
I have to wait the court order i can't file for expartee hearing they told me this is only for emergency 
I feel sorry for my H and i feel sorry for my kids
I want him back but all what he is doing is pushing me more away

He already did brain wash to my son 
My son when he sees working on my laptop he says are you talking to your boyfriend and when he sees me reading a book about marriage he says are you serious mom did you divorce my dad based on what you read in the books?

For my son whatever his dad is doing he has reason to do because i left him because i am the one who asked for divorce i am the one who broke the family and i am the one who took my kids from their dads

I am trying to explain to him but his way of thinking scares me i should schedule appointment for him with my T

He also told me you know mom what you and my dad taught me? to never get married in my life and when i said if you want to get married to mistreat your wife like your dad did you should not get married He said and if she did to me like you did to my dad also 
I said tell me what i did he said when he hit my sister he was disciplining her and not abusing her you should let him do that you misunderstood what he did mom this is not abuse she should not speak to him the way she did..... and sooo on

Later i was crying All what he said were my H's words in the recorded conversation

What i need to do is not what i want to do but i have to correct the wrong information that my kids received and it is really good that i have them recorded so i know which point i should consider but the whole situation is ugly


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## turnera

I'm sorry. Your H is lashing out in the only way he knows how to hurt you - your kids.

The worst thing that can happen is your son chooses him. This is not death, it's not a lifelong illness or paralysis or mental disease or physical abuse or rape or torture. This is just your son confused and wanting to get/keep his dad's approval. 

The path for you right now is just to always say the truth, do the right thing, and show your children who you really are. In the end, they will see. They may be unable to 'choose' you, but they will see, and know.


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## ADM

LVS, I am happy you are doing quite well.

You know what, I am a live example of the fact we don't know how strong we are, until we are put to prove that. My son is with his father from 10 days now and will be so till the end of the month. I have NEVER EVER been separated from my son. All together I have been far from him once when I dealt with the lock and my things back in spring time. Well, people keep on asking whether his father will bring him back to me as he promised. Well, I say I don't know. For what it concerns me, if I survived what I am going through, I think I can handle that too. I know it will be temporary.
so for you the same, just do what you think is necessary to do now and give it some time to the kids. 

I wish you all the luck you need.


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## ThinkTooMuch

*Uptown - Thanks for your explanation*

Uptown -

Thanks for putting a name to my ex, NPD/BPD describe her very well. She was verbally abusive to me, cut off friends for trivial reasons, said things to our youngest that were so offensive the kid didn't talk to her for years.

I've known for a long time there was something wrong, I called it depression, your definition is much closer. Her younger brother was off the wall bi-polar, only lithium helped him. This was in the late 60s and all of the 70s.

Her issues were event triggered, sometimes as minor as a disagreement over when the Yankees won a pennant.

I saw her in April, we were both at my grandchildren's house, she didn't sound at all like the b***** I lived with for almost 18 years. She'd gained a lot of weight, not unreasonable given she was 64, there was a giggliness about her I'd never seen.





Uptown said:


> Le Vieux, NPDs and BPDs both exhibit mean behavior so many people cannot tell the difference. Moreover, BPD is usually accompanied by another PD or disorder like bipolar, making it more confusing. There is a difference however. With NPDs, they tend to view people as objects and thus do not exhibit the sincere caring that you will see in BPDs.
> 
> My exW, for example, was very caring for people until they became close enough for her to fear abandonment. Then she could be very mean.
> .....
> Incidentally, the bipolar moods will be considered "rapid cycling" if they occur at least 4 times a year. With BPD mood changes, however, they can change 4 times in a week -- or even in one day. While it is possible to see that extreme rapid cycling in bipolar, it is very rare. Another difference is that, whereas bipolar is caused by gradual changes in body chemistry, BPD mood changes are "event triggered" (i.e., caused by some minor thing you do or say).


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## Uptown

*Re: Uptown - Thanks for your explanation*



Mark48 said:


> Uptown, thanks for putting a name to my ex, NPD/BPD describe her very well.


Thanks for the feedback, Mark. I am glad to hear that you found the information useful. I just posted a short comment in the thread you started two weeks ago. Take care.


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## Leann

wow. I don't have any advice to give you but wow... I've also been married for a very long time, still have an 11yr old at home and keep telling myself my son would be bette with us split up. They are close and it would rip them both up I know but i keep thinking what my son is exposed to will only cause him to repeat these behaviors as a man.

My daughter (just finished college) says she wished all the time when she was young that I would leave him. Said she never understood why i was such a doormat at that time. (i'm not anymore). She says she's behind whatever I choose to do but my son is too young to understand.

Making that step out the door is like swallowing a watermellon! Don't ya think? It scares the tar out of me. You worry you may be stepping off a cliff.


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## ThinkTooMuch

*Re: Leann - 28 years of marriage What can i do?*

Leann,

Your issues are far worse than I have ever been in, though walking on eggs was also my problem. Add a very bright, very verbal (she edited a dictionary after a top level college degree in English) woman, with me an engineer who could barely write a sentence ...

Going down the cliff is scary, I've literally gone up the sides of mountains, going down is the hard part, route finding difficult when there was no trail.

Friends and loved ones, your daughter and others, can point out where to put your feet and hands along the way.

I posted earlier in this thread. I came to the conclusion today that I will talk to an attorney to figure out how best to protect my interests.

It is a hard journey particularly with children, but worth it in the long run.

Mark


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## Uptown

LVS, not hearing from you for two weeks, I am starting to wonder how you and your family are doing. Sure would like to hear an update when you have time. I hope all is well with you.


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## turnera

Me too!


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## LVS

Thank you Uptown and Turnera for checking on me in fact it has been a while i didn't check my thread it is good that i checked it today

You asked me to update my thread in fact i am in a situation where i can't act so much i need to wait the 30 days after him being served 

About my life the same situation is repeating itself my son stays with his dad from Wed till Sat 4 days
even my H is keeping him until Sunday 
I sent him last Sunday email i told him that he is not cooperating with me to do good parenting and trashing me in front of my kids is not right and taking decisions concerning them without communicating with me doesn't suppose to happen and he is doing all that
And i told him i need to pick up my son on Sat after my work and i told him if he needs my kids on my days off he needs to communicate with me 
HE IGNORED ALL MY EMAILS

My D23 came by on Sunday to take my kids for an outing with their Dad i said if he needs to take them he needs to tell me that i don't need to hear it from you and i don't want to put you in this situation plus i know he wants a meeting with them and i am done from his meetings he take them from me on my days off to talk all bad things about me...
she said i need to go out with them and spend time together i said ok i can go with you she said no her dad is going then i said they are staying... She left and she also refused to hear my side of the story.....

This saddened me but didn't take my joy away i am soooo happy everyone around me at work is seeing that i look soo happy and not like someone going through divorce and i have to explain that the hurt is there i still hope he will wake up and try to get better and hope to be back together but nothing will affect my happiness 
i am happy not because of any outside situation it is because i decided to be happy no matter what i suffered enough...
and guess what?????
LIFE IS SMILING TO ME

I moved to another apartment with two bedrooms in the same complex, the one bedroom was so small for me and my kids 
i am paying more money now but i am doing what i suppose to do not worrying because i have faith and hope i believe something good is going to happen
what i earn is going for the rent utilities and bills for living i am spending from my credit card i know God won't leave me.. 


Leann and ThinkToMuch sorry for what is going on in your life i wish you the best


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## Uptown

LVS, thanks for replying so quickly. It is good to hear that you are still doing so well despite all your H's nastiness. Please keep in touch with us occasionally because, with him being so unpredictable, we get concerned about your safety.


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## LVS

Hello my friends

Little update,
It not much things happening just my oldest daughter stopped talking to me or answering my phone calls she comes to the city just to see her dad and brother and sister then leave without seeing me.
It hurts but i know it is a matter of time...

I went yesterday to see sister X in her office. For the readers who don't know about sister X; my H visited her in July after he found between my papers the document from Father C that states that he tried to contact my H for counseling and my H refused. So my H tried to appear that he wants counseling now and i am refusing it and planning for divorce and after sister X talked to me she gave him my negative answer sooooo he asked her to give him a letter stating my refusal of marriage counseling.

Sister X told me that my H expected a letter taking his side but it wasn't. She said "I wrote what happened as it happened"
She read the letter to me. I will try to write the main points

"... requested from H and after i had conversation with his wife i know that she asked him two times for counseling and he refused and even father C tried to contact him and he refused 
Now H wants counseling and asked me to talk to his wife to rethink her decision about filing for divorce
His wife said that she needs to work on herself with a counselor and also her H needs to work on himself with a counselor too and when both will be ready she might think of giving another chance for their marriage..."

I loved her letter...

This letter was on August 4th and my H met with my kids to trash me on August 15th even he said that he wanted counseling and he went to the parish and talked to Sister X asking her to talk to me and convince me to not file for divorce and to do marriage counseling but Sister X couldn't even do anything with me and nobody else not my brother nor my parents or my kids was able to do anything and it is all because i have someone else in my life....

Anyway the reason i went to see sister X was to ask her if i should give another chance to my marriage and do marriage counseling with my H
She said she encourages that and she would prefer if i filed for legal separation instead of divorce
I said i gave lot of chances for my marriage the legal separation for me is waste of time the reason i filed for divorce is because i can at any time convert it to legal separation if he tries to do something positive and even if i got divorce i can remarry him
also we are still married in church even later if i got annulment at any time we can remarry 
She said right
She asked me what my T said i told her she said what i am doing is the right thing to be done and he won't change and all what he is doing is wrong
Sister X said "as i think after talking to you i know you need someone who gives you love and respect who treats you well and accept you as you are and after seeing your H and talking to him i don't see it is going to work"

I cried i said deep inside me i know that but still i don't want to lose hope she said you need to accept the reality and try to make friends you need to not feel lonely. 

she said too You need care and love, build your support group so you don't fall with the first man who offers you what you need. I don't advice you to get involved with another man right away give yourself time for you and your kids best it is better to not get involved with someone else before about 18 months....


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## turnera

Thanks for the update!

Wow, she sounds like an amazing person. She has such a good handle on things!

I'm really glad that you are gaining strength and conviction. Of course he may change, but it will take a LONG time for him to work through the issues that make him what he is. And he will only do it if he has a reason. Staying or reconciling gave him no reason. 

I'm so proud of you.

Have you made any friends in your new apartment complex?


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## LVS

Thanks for your post Turnera hope everything is well with you

Yes i am glad God is putting great people in my way to help me and support me
and no still don't have any friends yet

I am going to volunteer at my church but Sister X said it is not going to help me she said i need to join a group they meet weekly together in the parish
to do bible study
This is a good start i am going to try it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Sounds like a great start! Our church always has a lot of great ways for women to get together.


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## Uptown

LVS, thanks so much for the update. I am glad to hear that you are still doing well and holding strong. I also am glad to hear that you will be able to find a support group that meets once a week in your church.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> ...Of course he may change, but it will take a LONG time for him to work through the issues that make him what he is. And he will only do it if he has a reason. Staying or reconciling gave him no reason...


Two points scare me
First one is that the hope i am living with is only a morphine just to make me not feel the pain of divorce and that he would never change.

The other point is that by the time he started to change i might lose interest of going back to him or not being able to forgive all the hurt he did to me or becoming involved with someone else.

Any Advice I appreciate it !


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## turnera

Assuming you start talking again at some point, I would just take the high road: always be civil and pleasant with him, look good, smell good, offer to have him over for dinner (when it's safe) and cook his favorite food...give him a reason to change.


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## LVS

What you said is something so far to happen at least in the near future. (knowing that i never stopped looking good or smelling good even at the hardest time we went through).

When i read your advice i felt like something choking me and big pressure on my heart.If i do anything it is going to kill me from inside. I am not ready for that.

I don't know if you see this contradicting what i said before about my hope to go back to him.

From my side I see myself deserving better which means i hope to go back to him everyday, i pray God to help him, but HE needs to at least start working on himself.

I haven't seen him after i moved out. 
He is refusing any kind of communication so the silent treatment is continuing. And he is putting all the blame on me in front of everyone including my kids and trashing me in front of them.....

How can i invite him for dinner or make any positive step and he didn't show any sign of good intention to change?

You said something really important *(when it is safe)* Physically i am not scared but Emotionally that's the main thing will i be safe and how long will it take for me to feel emotionally safe??????

This bring me back to the two points that scare me in my previous post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Am i thinking wrong?


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## turnera

Not at all. IMO, you need at least 6 months on your own, if not a year, before you try such things.


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## Uptown

LVS, like Turnera, I believe it would take him several years of individual therapy (together, perhaps, with group therapy) to have any substantial lasting change you could actually see. And, of course, it would only have that effect if he really wants change for himself because he has started confronting his illness and taking responsibility for his own actions. Sadly, that is unlikely to happen for reasons we discussed months ago. Indeed, I took my BPD exW to weekly meetings of individual therapy for 15 years -- with six different psychologists -- and she never improved at all. Take care, LVS. I am still so very proud of your amazing courage and accomplishments.


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## LVS

Hello my friends hope everything is well with you

Thank you for your replies and i think it's going to take him life time and he won't change one single thing

I don't have too much to say nothing new except the 30 days after he has being served the divorce papers passed and he didn't comply or answer so i think what is requested on the papers should be granted to me

I have one problem which is last week i had car accident i am ok but the car is total loss.
The problem is he is the owner of the car and i still don't have court order
He went to the insurance company and told our agent there our story and talked all kind of BS about me....
And he told her he is the owner and the check should come on his name

So i hope i can get the court order before he takes the money!!!


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## turnera

He's hoping to force you to have to come home because of money. Or else he's just being a jerk. (no surprise)

How are the kids?


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## LVS

Yes he is acting really bad and i know he wants to destroy me and prove that i can't live without him 
Every time he does things like that he pushes me far away.
I am trying all my best to not be forced to go back to him.

My kids are ok but my S12 is affected of what is going on every while words skip from his mouth showing his resentment toward what happened and blamed it on me.
And my D23 doesn't talk to me and when i call her she doesn't answer her phone


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## turnera

Patience. They'll start to see the difference. I know it's hard. Have you made any friends yet?


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## Uptown

LVS, thanks for the update. I was wondering how you and your kids are doing. Am sorry to hear about the car accident which, if you do not obtain a court order soon, will effectively transfer the car to him in the form of a check. Hope that does not happen or, if it does, you can undo it in court perhaps. In any event, it sounds like you are still doing very well. And I agree with Turnera that your kids will eventually see the light and be proud of you for having the strength and good sense to leave the man.


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## LVS

Uptown, i think if he got the check then i can't do anything because he can say he has no money and he spent it all..

Turnera you asked me if i made friends well now I am meeting once a week at my church to do bible study 

but still my life is empty and i feel lonely trying to be strong and happy but still everything happening is dragging me back in confusion and insecurity

I am on the right way to make friends 

I went to the women retreat on Saturday 18th it is the day i had the accident on my way there
The police officer dropped me off at the retreat location and it was great and special welcome
Having the accident and going to the retreat in the police car made me famous lol and i turned to be the special person there who God saved from the accident and who decided no matter what to join them with continuous smile on her face
What happen that day was a blessing and i believe things happen for a reason and it should be good
That's why i always believe God is not going to bring me to this point and leave me drown. I believe something good is going to happen.


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## turnera

Me too!


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## LVS

I called the insurance company and they said they spoke with the owner of the vehicle and they sent him the check 
I have until next week and the insurance will stop paying for the rental car
I told him through my D18 that he needs to sign the check and send it to me 
he said do yo think i am stupid your mom only can have half of the money

It is bad because if i have court order i should have it all and i also feel bad because with half the money i won't be able to get another car and next week i will be with no car.....

I feel scared, even though i always believe that God won't leave me alone but i am afraid from losing my job and not being able to provide enough money 
and then i will have to go back to him......


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## turnera

Talk to your boss about it. And go to United Way and see if they can help you.


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## LVS

*He did something fair*
He sent me a letter that says by law i have right of half the value of his car and mine and sent me a check 
I can get an ok car with the amount i have better than nothing


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## turnera

Great! Standing up for yourself... you are teaching him how to treat you with respect.


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## LVS

I am back to update my thread
I bought a car by luck similar to mine and even better with the amount i have and it's him who found it for me through my D23's friend.

So it is true he got extra money in his pocket and i got none but by luck i have now better car and this time i will be the owner 

My D23 called me to tell me about the car and since then she started back talking to me the reason still unknown and i still didn't get chance to talk to her.

Thanks for your time to read in my thread and hope everything is well with you.


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## LVS

Uptown i have a question

I was reading BPD family articles i found myself reading how to save my relationship and how to support and help a loved one (a part of me scared of falling into another abuser also a part is scared to go back to my H)

While reading I saw how much i was able to put in our relationship if i wasn't depressed and if i was in different situation. This made me think maybe with time i can go back to him and help him after building my communication skills more and after working more on my boundaries.
This was few hours ago now i feel my stomach stressed and hurting scared of finding myself going back to him 

My question is If i build my communication skills (i am going to do that anyway) if i gain more patience and willing to sacrifice more in this relationship
Would i be able to help him 
As high functioning i read the same like you said his chance of healing is not sure so how much the process of helping and supporting him can give positive results?
Do you think i can do anything or i will be back bottling up until leaving him again....

Any advice !!
Thanks for your time.


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## Uptown

LVS, I'm glad to hear that you came out so well on the car deal. As to helping him, my opinion is that improving your communication skills and boundaries won't make a dent in helping him. Indeed, you can spend seven years getting a PhD in psychology and won't make a dent. Only he can help himself and, like nearly every other high functioning BPDer out there, he is too scared of letting go of his victim role and taking responsibility for his own actions. 

The reason, as I understand it, is his all-or-nothing thinking, which condemns him to a life in which he can be "all good" or "all bad." Given that limited choice, he of course chooses to be "all good." Yet, since that is an impossible task, he pulls it off (at a conscious level) by dumping all of his guilt and mistakes on you through projection (and denial and splitting). You therefore served as a trash can for nearly three decades.

The result is that he still has serious damage to his emotional core, making him unable to trust or control his emotions or be appreciative of your sacrifices. That sort of damage cannot be touched by all the communication courses in the world, which is why I believe marriage counseling is a waste of money until the BPDer learns -- on his own volition -- to control his disorder. 

But you already knew this, didn't you? Your "child" just wanted to hear me say it to make it feel more real. Like I said months ago, it takes a lot of affirmation like this to help the child in you catch up with your adult.


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## turnera

LVS said:


> My D23 called me to tell me about the car and since then she started back talking to me the reason still unknown and i still didn't get chance to talk to her.


 I just want to remind you that daughters have a very special affinity for their fathers. IMO, it's biological - they gain some identity from their mothers, but a very big part of who they are, their feminine identity, is created from their relationship with their father. So females in the 10-25 year age range are going to be subconsciously drawn to their fathers, feeling they have to side with them. Even if he's a creep.

So just remember that how she treats you has NOTHING to do with you, and EVERYTHING to do with pleasing her father.


----------



## LVS

Uptown said:


> LVS, I'm glad to hear that you came out so well on the car deal. As to helping him, my opinion is that improving your communication skills and boundaries won't make a dent in helping him. Indeed, you can spend seven years getting a PhD in psychology and won't make a dent. Only he can help himself and, like nearly every other high functioning BPDer out there, he is too scared of letting go of his victim role and taking responsibility for his own actions.


As i understood Improving my communication skills will help to reduce fighting and turn the wheel by using patience and wisdom and care in a professional way
Stop when stopping requires courage conviction and skills 
And not take things personal
It will help me i guess to hold on and help him to help himself healing. Of course all what i am saying is applicable only in case he made at least his first step into improvement.



Uptown said:


> The reason, as I understand it, is his all-or-nothing thinking, which condemns him to a life in which he can be "all good" or "all bad." Given that limited choice, he of course chooses to be "all good." Yet, since that is an impossible task, he pulls it off (at a conscious level) by dumping all of his guilt and mistakes on you through projection (and denial and splitting). You therefore served as a trash can for nearly three decades.


Completely right it is also easier for him to believe i left him for someone else than to admit that it was because of him...
But do you think it won't come a day he will realize the truth do you think deep inside him he doesn't know?
For how long he is going to keep believing a lie he created it to run away from the reality. 
Unfortunately i don't think he will it would be killing him if he did he can't handle it.....



Uptown said:


> The result is that he still has serious damage to his emotional core, making him unable to trust or control his emotions or be appreciative of your sacrifices. That sort of damage cannot be touched by all the communication courses in the world, which is why I believe marriage counseling is a waste of money until the BPDer learns -- on his own volition -- to control his disorder.


It is sad and i feel guilty for many reasons first for being some how one of the reasons of creating the monster who he became by being the trash can for all these years
I feel guilty for leaving him now at an age he needs someone to care of him and support him
I also feel guilty because in my mind i am able to put in a new relationship, even if the other person is also BPDer, more than i did or i can put in my old one.
I feel i want to go back to him but at the same time i don't want this to happen 
And i feel sad for myself for being still focusing on him and his well being not on mine and my goals... or maybe i am selfish thinking of myself because i am in an insecure life with not enough finances with fear to fall with another man abuser... I still need to work a lot on my self esteem self confidence to set my goals in life i am still lost.....



Uptown said:


> But you already knew this, didn't you? Your "child" just wanted to hear me say it to make it feel more real. Like I said months ago, it takes a lot of affirmation like this to help the child in you catch up with your adult.


Yes, my mind knows what you said, but also as you said i need sooo much affirmation more than you can imagine i feel doubting myself i feel bad.....


----------



## LVS

I would like to put here something happened this week and the last conversation with my parents

I already mentioned that my son stays with his dad on my work days. Saturday night after my work i went to pick him up he came with frozen food.(in my mind he knows now that nobody else is helping me with money he knows i need money he is sending me food BS he went to the insurance company to talk to a the woman there about our life he was telling her i left him for someone else he is trashing me in front of my kids he refused to pay me my part of the check he got from the rental office he took the money and gave me half of it and now he is giving me food I was really mad )
I should send my son to give him back the food but i didn't think about it until i got home.
Monday i gave my D18 money the value of the frozen food and told her to give them to her dad saying that this will make me feel comfortable to keep the food and i don't want to be mean by sending them back.(i think this is good for my boundaries i know i should return them directly but what i did also made me feel comfortable)
Now when i called me parents Monday i told them what happened
What my mother said "you should not send the money you should leave a place to reconciliation" here i was mad i said mom i don't want reconciliation he should think about it not me all what he is doing doesn't make me want any reconciliation.
My dad said you did right but also he said you need to listen to God voice when he is speaking to you he said the accident happened for a reason first God saved your life second God sent you a better car third God is setting the ground for something to happen and bring you back to your H (here i felt so sad)
I said dad I am listening to God's voice and i am seeing everything God is doing for me and all what i am doing is blessed by God and yes God could be setting the ground to bring us close to each other but it is not necessary to get back together it could be for the good of our kids to be in good relation even if we are separated.
My dad answer was with strict tone "did you hear what i said just listen to what i said and don't ignore or stop what God wants you to do and God be with you". 

I feel sadly that everybody in the family and also him are thinking it is a matter of time and we are going to be back together and maybe also my D23 planned with her dad to be back in contact with me for the same reason (as you said turnera you have so much right) even the support that i am getting from my Brother the monk is to give me time to relax and breathe to be able to give another chance to the marriage.....


----------



## ThinkTooMuch

LVS,

Sorry to read your parents are not supportive, glad some of our fellow posters are being helpful. 

I married a high function BPDer, meeting her when I was depressed, lonely, and needing company. She was bright, very affectionate at first, one of the top 5 of her class in HS, a Smith english major, and a good mother when our kids were young. I walked on eggshells for years, she was always right about everything, I was painted black.

I agree with uptown having followed up on learning more about BPD, he is not going to change.

As hard as it was to move out, I'm so glad I did, I think I would have died of a stroke or heart attack in my 30s if I hadn't.

Good luck!

MARK





LVS said:


> I would like to put here something happened this week and the last conversation with my parents
> 
> My dad answer was with strict tone "did you hear what i said just listen to what i said and don't ignore or stop what God wants you to do and God be with you".
> 
> I feel sadly that everybody in the family and also him are thinking it is a matter of time and we are going to be back together and maybe also my D23 planned with her dad to be back in contact with me for the same reason (as you said turnera you have so much right) even the support that i am getting from my Brother the monk is to give me time to relax and breathe to be able to give another chance to the marriage.....


----------



## turnera

Your dad reminds me of your husband. I think you may have been trained in your childhood to listen to the man and let him decide your fate.


----------



## Uptown

> i feel guilty for many reasons first for being some how one of the reasons of creating the monster who he became by being the trash can for all these years


LVS, as I've said before, leaving him is a good thing because his only chance of confronting his BPD traits is for you to stop enabling him to continue acting like a four year old with tantrums. So, yes, his best chance of wanting to seek therapy is for you to leave.

That said, it nonetheless is a very small chance because it is unusual for a BPDer to have the self awareness necessary for wanting to go through therapy. As I noted before, therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a greater chance riding to the moon strapped to a banana than seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. I paid a small fortune to send my exW to weekly therapy with six different psychologists for 15 years -- all to no avail.

Hence, I have never beat myself up with any guilt over having "enabled" my exW to avoid confronting her illness. There is only an extremely small chance she would have done it no matter what I did. Likewise, you should not feel guilty for having tried to help him -- the outcome would likely have been the same for him. 

As to your feeling of "having been one of the reasons for creating the monster," that is simply a feeling based on nonsense. For one thing, he is not a monster but, rather, a sick man. And you know it. For another, you have never had the power to fix him or -- at the opposite extreme -- to make his BPD traits much worse. They arose out of primitive emotional defenses that likely were frozen in place by the time he was four or five -- long before you even met him.


> I feel guilty for leaving him now at an age he needs someone to care of him and support him


High functioning BPDers like your H are surprisingly strong. Just because they cannot regulate their emotions well does not mean they are helpless. Indeed, their destructive traits usually do not show themselves in their relationships with the vast majority of people in their lives. Where those traits become a liability (for untreated high functioning BPDers) is with love relationships, as I've explained several times above. 

So please stop falling for his "poor little me" act. Yes, he really believes he is a perpetual victim. So now it is time for you to back away and let him create "perpetrators" out of the other people in his life. My exW, for example, has turned on some of her adult children (the ones who abandoned me) and is blaming them the way she used to blame me. You served that role -- being a trash can for all his mistakes and guilt -- for twenty years. Enough is enough -- for you and me both.


----------



## LVS

ThinkTooMuch said:


> LVS,
> 
> Sorry to read your parents are not supportive, glad some of our fellow posters are being helpful.
> 
> I married a high function BPDer, meeting her when I was depressed, lonely, and needing company. She was bright, very affectionate at first, one of the top 5 of her class in HS, a Smith english major, and a good mother when our kids were young. I walked on eggshells for years, she was always right about everything, I was painted black.
> 
> I agree with uptown having followed up on learning more about BPD, he is not going to change.
> 
> As hard as it was to move out, I'm so glad I did, I think I would have died of a stroke or heart attack in my 30s if I hadn't.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> MARK


Thank you Mark for your post I read in your thread after you posted on mine last time i am glad you are feeling better and you did the right thing for yourself, me too if i didn't move out i would be a dead person by now 
Wat i did at least it saved my life...


----------



## LVS

turnera said:


> Your dad reminds me of your husband. I think you may have been trained in your childhood to listen to the man and let him decide your fate.


Yes turnera i married my H because i saw him like my dad and i thought he is going to get along with him lol they never did
My dad was for my idol the perfect person who never commit a mistake my mother is a really very very submissive person who never say no
My brothers was hard for them to become independent or decide something for themselves so much like me they worry about others more than themselves...
My dad controlled my life even after my marriage for years because i was still around him and because he never got along with my H always the blame from both of them was on me....

I fought to not be like my mom and helped my kids to become self confident and independent in life and i am happy for what they are now 
I know i was dependent in some ways
What helped them is because i said no to my H when i had to protect their well being
and what affected them is when i didn't protect my well being....


----------



## LVS

Thank you uptown for your detailed reply i needed that so much. I understand all what you said in your past and the last posts
Sometimes i doubt myself and feel i need to give a new try whenever i see he starts on the right path but things happen in my life and make me reject these thoughts and never want to be with him again.

My stomach is soooo stressed because of the feeling i am living
I am soo scared

What happened yesterday is a proof of what i am saying
He sent me yesterday with my D18 a kind of fruits he knows i like he told her don't let your mom know i sent it tell her it is from your friend...

But i felt she was lying and when i faced her she said the truth.
So i told her to take them back and tell him thank you.
She said she is scared of his reaction....
Today she took them back, he drops her off at the college, after she left she sent me a text message to tell me "of course it is always my fault"
I replied "no it is not and don't let him put you in the guilt zone"
she said "i know i am not feeling guilty but i am tired of his sh.."
See, he is now projecting the blame toward my daughter because i am not there anymore...

Now i am feeling so stressed scared i don't want to go back to him but i feel i might be forced to do that he is not going to let me live in peace and if i had to go back to him it is going to be when all the ways are blocked in my face and i am scared of what i am going to do if i am forced to do that...


----------



## turnera

Oh no you don't!

Honey, he has NO control over you. Your daughter can break free from him, too, if she wants. But she needs to hear from you that it is ok for her to do so. She's still young enough that she needs to hear her mom's advice, ok? Tell her how proud of her you are for taking the fruit back even though she was scared. Tell her to think about how she stood up for herself and SURVIVED! Tell her that what HE says is nothing more than manipulation, trying to bring her AND you back under control, and that you and she are TOO SMART for that!

Tell her that, ok? She needs to hear this encouragement from you. She needs to hear that she's old enough to go out on her own and have her own life if she wants. Tell her that she's an adult now and she never again has to do what her father says. NEVER.

If she wants to back off from him, tell her you and she can go to social services or United Way and get them to help her set up her own life, get financial aid, whatever she needs. This country has a multitude of ways to get help - you just have to go looking for it. 

Help her see at this pivotal point that she should NOT center her life around pleasing her father or ANY man - she should not make the mistake YOU made of living that life. Help her feel empowered. Help her get MAD at her father for doing this to her.

LVS, he WILL let you live in peace, if you just stand strong. He has no control over you any more. You're a human being with just as many rights as everyone else. He is NOTHING to you any more but a burr in your side. 

You still have my number, right? Call me. I'll talk you down off the ledge.


----------



## turnera

Oh, and btw, please don't put her in the middle again. I know you know that, but just saying. Just take what he gives, let him think he's controlling you, and throw it in the trash. Let her see you do that.

You sent it back because you were trying to MAKE A POINT to him. 

But HE DOES NOT MATTER ANY MORE. He is nothing to you. You are divorcing him, and you don't ever have to see him again the rest of your life if you don't want to.

So there is NO POINT in making a point to him. Got it?

Just by you sending it back, he is keeping you in his loop. He is controlling you and your actions. 

The BEST way to get through to him is to pretend he doesn't exist.


----------



## LVS

turnera said:


> Oh no you don't!
> 
> Honey, he has NO control over you. Your daughter can break free from him, too, if she wants. But she needs to hear from you that it is ok for her to do so. She's still young enough that she needs to hear her mom's advice, ok? Tell her how proud of her you are for taking the fruit back even though she was scared. Tell her to think about how she stood up for herself and SURVIVED! Tell her that what HE says is nothing more than manipulation, trying to bring her AND you back under control, and that you and she are TOO SMART for that!


It is true all what you said..Thanks for opening my eyes to this point 
My D18 is trying to break free we had a conversation
she was so relived when she felt i understand her and encourage her.




turnera said:


> Tell her that, ok? She needs to hear this encouragement from you. She needs to hear that she's old enough to go out on her own and have her own life if she wants. Tell her that she's an adult now and she never again has to do what her father says. NEVER.


She didn't need me to tell her she told me all what you said she said it to me and she was surprised that i was supporting her and encouraging her lol



turnera said:


> Help her see at this pivotal point that she should NOT center her life around pleasing her father or ANY man - she should not make the mistake YOU made of living that life. Help her feel empowered. Help her get MAD at her father for doing this to her.


She knows much better than i do lol



turnera said:


> LVS, he WILL let you live in peace, if you just stand strong. He has no control over you any more. You're a human being with just as many rights as everyone else. He is NOTHING to you any more but a burr in your side.
> 
> You still have my number, right? Call me. I'll talk you down off the ledge.


He has no control over me and he has so much control
-Now i can't go back to my country because first it costs too much second if i go there he can make me stuck there and not be able to come back
- I need to stay close to him because of my S12 

The fears i am living 
I am fighting to start over from below zero
It is really depressing it is a huge effort i need to do to build
New life New friends new relationship in a new culture who suffers a lot and surveys showed one divorce occurs in every two marriages (am i going to go back to my H? i can't picture my life without him or with another man and i can't handle the thought to go back to him)
What should i dream about and what are my goals i wrote down a paper to find my goals to give a meaning to my life but still unfinished i am trying to motivate myself to finish it to be able to start from somewhere
I am living emptiness and lost and loneliness 
I know what i should do but i don't have any motivation to do it
and i know if i don't work on this area i am going to fall into depression....


----------



## turnera

lol, I think you already fell into it. Get those anti-depressants! That is an order, ok?


----------



## Uptown

LVS, I agree with Turnera that it sounds like you've already gotten depressed. At times like these it is good to use the anti-depressant and stop it when you get to the point of feeling better. I'm so glad to hear that you are getting support from D18, apparently the only one in your family to see the light and give you affirmation. Please focus on getting out and meeting new friends in community groups or school when you can. I'm having to do the same thing and am much older than you. Everyone I date looks like a great-grand mother -- and I walk into the date looking like a great grand father, which I am. Believe me, the chances of infatuation occurring at my age are not great, LOL.


----------



## turnera

LVS, have you been to your doctor yet?


----------



## LVS

I couldn't get appointment with my Dr before tomorrow morning
I know i am in really hard time yesterday i asked to leave work early i had fast heart beats
I am still not feeling good but i can wait for tomorrow i am thinking to take today off and relax
I took appointment with my therapist on November 9th
I will try to eliminate all what causes my depression
turnera said it and you too uptown the anti-depressant is going to help me and within two weeks i should be feeling better


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## LVS

Something to share 

Lately i stopped going anywhere i am not motivated to do anything
I tried to make friends but all men who i know are interested in going out with me
and all the women have boyfriends or want to date someone
i don't feel i want to date anyone now
Looking for friends is really not easy
One woman i felt i can get along with her and felt relaxed to go out with her she is so nice to me so she invited me on Tuesday to a dinner with her family i felt so good that she trusted me and that she found me close to her to invite me to a dinner with her family so i went 

Guess what? I discovered that her family is her X wife
She told me that she broke up with her other girlfriend after 8 years of being together hmmmm

Lol that's sooo funny the only person i was able to go out with and thought we could be close friends is this coworker to discover she wants me badly and she has a huge interest in me to become her girlfriend 
WOOOW i was never in such situation in my whole life i was so stressed all the visit time 

I told her that i respect her tendency and even if we have different tendencies we still can be friends and she offered her friendship and was asking me to not get upset with her because of that but still i was stressed all the time. It's going to be a friendship where i need to watch every step.... LOL additional stress..

What do you think can i trust to be her friend? Is this going to work?


----------



## ThinkTooMuch

*Re: 28 years of marriage What can i do?*

I suggest you tell her you enjoy her company and see her as a friend and nothing more. You and she may enjoy spending time together. Having lunch or taking a walk can be just that, not a romantic relationship. I truly value friends regardless of gender or their interests.





LVS said:


> Something to share
> 
> Lately i stopped going anywhere i am not motivated to do anything
> I tried to make friends but all men who i know are interested in going out with me
> and all the women have boyfriends or want to date someone
> i don't feel i want to date anyone now
> Looking for friends is really not easy
> One woman i felt i can get along with her and felt relaxed to go out with her she is so nice to me so she invited me on Tuesday to a dinner with her family i felt so good that she trusted me and that she found me close to her to invite me to a dinner with her family so i went
> 
> Guess what? I discovered that her family is her X wife
> She told me that she broke up with her other girlfriend after 8 years of being together hmmmm
> 
> Lol that's sooo funny the only person i was able to go out with and thought we could be close friends is this coworker to discover she wants me badly and she has a huge interest in me to become her girlfriend
> WOOOW i was never in such situation in my whole life i was so stressed all the visit time
> 
> I told her that i respect her tendency and even if we have different tendencies we still can be friends and she offered her friendship and was asking me to not get upset with her because of that but still i was stressed all the time it's going to be a friendship where i need to watch every step.... LOL additional stress..
> 
> What do you think can i trust to be her friend? Is this going to work?


----------



## turnera

LVS, my mother's best friend in the world was a lesbian. They understood each other, that my mom was straight, and they were strictly best friends. It was a wonderful arrangement for both of them.

I still remember her and loved her dearly.

Also, IMO, such a person could make for a better friend - she's likely been through a lot of hardship, so she's less likely to be one of those 'mean' women who's been all about herself and being pretty and selfish. 

Go for it!


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## Uptown

LVS, some of my best friends were gay men. The sexual preference really does not have to matter because a person has sex with such a tiny percent of those he considers friends. Like Turnera says, "Go for it."


----------



## LVS

On anti depressant for 5 weeks after two weeks and i will feel better.

About my friend i learned that she was asking around about me showing so many people her interest in me anyway
i am going to try to be just a friend.
today she said to me something nice she said we are going to start the enlightened circle all women can join and it is to help each other whenever anyopne needs help and she said she already spoke to women co workers and that i am who inspired that.

I liked the idea
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LVS

I changed my mind and i don't want her anymore as a friend she is acting in a cheap way 

I work in a facility for children abused and neglect and she is a co worker in different cottage. The thing is she is telling everybody about her interest in me.

Yesterday also one of the kids told me that he knows who loves me and after asking him in my way the child of 14 years old told me that she told him that she is gay and about how much she is interested in me and she asked him to not tell anybody 

This is not cool at all rumors are going to spread so fast and everyone kids and co workers will be having maybe different story and the kids will be using this against me at work 

I felt so bad i can see this is kind of harassment and i am thinking to document it and report it to my supervisor and HR

What do you think?


----------



## LVS

I wanted to share what i feel is the main source of my depression, maybe i can get some insights!!

uptown i already know it i read it many times and you also said it to me in more than one post and today i just read it in your post when answering a question
*Am I expecting too much to have a normal person to talk to?*
Your Answer
*Yes, without years of therapy from a psychologist trained to treat BPDers, your W likely cannot become a "normal person" because she has damage to her emotional core....*

Every time i feel myself better i think i want to go back to him but at the same time i don't because he is not changing or showing any sign of willing to do anything to change all he is doing is showing everybody including our kids that he is changing and caring for me and sending me the food that i love but i am not doing anything from my side.
So every time i feel myself i want to go back or someone agree with me or encourage me to reconcile i feel a rock over my chest and it will become hard for me to breath.

In the other hand, every time i think i need to let him go from my life to be able to start over i feel the same pressure when i think about my culture my son and my family expectations

I am living the same stress i had to live before i moved out and filed for divorce even that was much easier because even with divorce there is still chance to go back to each other

But the problem is i can't go on in my life if i want to keep him in my mind and if i decide to let go the chance to go back to him will be so weak

-Would i be able to leave him for ever !!
-Would i be able to ignore the family and culture voice especially my S27 who will be the most affected with this situation because he is still in my country
- Would i ignore the voice of the family and parents knowing that everybody is praying and hopping that something good is going to happen and tat we are going to be back together for the sake of the family

Sometimes i feel exhausted and i want to give up but i know it is not going to last long before he starts back opening his old books and this time the blame will be worse and the life would be more terrible and i know this time i might not be in power to get out and i might stay and die...

What i need is working hard on my mind to have the adjustment needed to the new life but before doing that i need to figure out and decide which life i want and what i am going to do because i know staying in the unknown and undecided situation is not going to help me and is dragging me more in my depression...

Any helpful thoughts??
Any advice is appreciated!!!


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## turnera

First, tell this woman that she is making you uneasy and if she can't stop what she's doing, you'll have to report her. Let her decide what to do. If she doesn't respect your boundaries, stop hanging around her. But do join that group and MAKE FRIENDS!

Second, promise yourself that you will make NO DECISIONS for at least a month - all of November. Let the anti-depressants do their work, ok? Anything you decide before then will be a mistake, under duress.

You're doing fine!


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## LVS

turnera
What she did was so bad i need to do something about it
When one child knows a story all kids are going to know it as fast as fire plus she already spoke in front of all staff in her cottage men and women so they know and they are going to spread it around so also being close to her i don't know if it is going to be a good idea

About my decision i am still unable to know what to decide and this is making me more stressed


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## turnera

Let the medicine help you - just promise me you won't do anything for at least two weeks. 

As for the 'friend,' the best thing to do is tell her first to back off. But if you feel unsafe doing that, by all means, go to the HR person and tell them what she is doing, and let THEM take care of it. She has crossed a line.


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## Uptown

> In the other hand, every time i think i need to let him go from my life to be able to start over i feel the same pressure when i think about my culture my son and my family expectations ... I am living the same stress i had to live before i moved out


LVS, yes, now that the euphoria of escaping has subsided, you are in a stressful situation that is equal to what you left. There is a BIG difference, however. The stressful situation you now are in is going to get better and better. In contrast, the one you left was only going to get worse and worse. I therefore agree with Turnera that you are on the right track and need to be patient to allow the meds to kick in. Do what is right for yourself -- for the first time in your life -- and have faith in your adult kids that they are intelligent enough to eventually see through your H's fog.


----------



## turnera

Have you started the meds?


----------



## LVS

Yes turnera i started my medication on Saturday night and as you told me i should not take any decision before i start to feel better even if i want my mind is confusing me and switching from wanting something to totally hating it in the same time lol

Uptown one thing is making me more depressed it's because i want to live and i want to do what is right for me, for the first time i am thinking of myself and taking care of my well being, BUT something still pulling me back and leaving me helpless hmmmm 

The problem is the least person i care for is my H whether i chose to go back to him or not...


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## turnera

Good news!


----------



## LVS

Today my Brother the Monk called me 
During our conversation he said ; before you left your H you had a great plan do you still think about it i knew the plan he is talking about it was when i asked to get separated for about 6 months then go back and give another chance

I laughed but also was mad i said what chance should i give to someone till now he didn't show me anything positive and till now he is not leaving me alone to work on myself and breathe he is still making me depressed and putting our kids in between. I don't want to give him any chance.....
My brother like my son and everyone in the family, they are still hoping, but i am not.

My brother didn't blame for what i said and he asked me if i can get my kids to counseling he is going to send me money to take care of them and to support me so i don't need my H for anything
I felt relived this is very important for me and my kids


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## turnera

That's even better news!

You see, LVS? When YOU stand up for yourself, others do, too.


----------



## ThinkTooMuch

*Re: 28 years of marriage What can i do?*

LVS,

I congratulate you. You have made so much progress since your first post, freeing yourself, freeing your children. Your brother the Monk is a good man.

A few years from now you'll look back and be extremely happy you separated. 

This is not a painless journey, but it is necessary.

Mark





LVS said:


> Today my Brother the Monk called me
> During our conversation he said ; before you left your H you had a great plan do you still think about it i knew the plan he is talking about it was when i asked to get separated for about 6 months then go back and give another chance
> 
> I laughed but also was mad i said what chance should i give to someone till now he didn't show me anything positive and till now he is not leaving me alone to work on myself and breathe he is still making me depressed and putting our kids in between. I don't want to give him any chance.....
> My brother like my son and everyone in the family, they are still hoping, but i am not.
> 
> My brother didn't blame for what i said and he asked me if i can get my kids to counseling he is going to send me money to take care of them and to support me so i don't need my H for anything
> I felt relived this is very important for me and my kids


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## Uptown

LVS, what wonderful news!!! I am so happy to hear that your brother is finally stepping forward to be supportive. Yes, he apparently is not only a good man but also a loyal family member.


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## LVS

Thank you my friends for the supportive words

Today was a good day i didn't do anything special but i was feeling better
I need to start working on setting very short term goals to feel motivated and to find a meaning of what i do and something to look for

Any suggestions???


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## turnera

Hmmm, short term goals...

Well, I still want you to find a neighbor in your apartment complex and go up to them and talk to them.

I also want you to go to the apartment manager, like we discussed, and ask them if they have any events going on. They might have something this weekend for Halloween. Or something for Thanksgiving.

And look for a park near your apartment so you and your kids can go. Parks are wonderful for picking up your spirits.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> Hmmm, short term goals...
> 
> Well, I still want you to find a neighbor in your apartment complex and go up to them and talk to them.
> 
> I also want you to go to the apartment manager, like we discussed, and ask them if they have any events going on. They might have something this weekend for Halloween. Or something for Thanksgiving.
> 
> And look for a park near your apartment so you and your kids can go. Parks are wonderful for picking up your spirits.


I am doing well since last Tuesday i started feeling better with myself so i didn't waste time but the apartment manager said they have no activities for residents

Anyway Here what i did
1- I decided to start volunteering i went to my parish and they welcomed me so i have something to do every Tuesday morning which is one of my off days in addition i already had training so i am a Eucharistic Minister and i will be taking the Eucharist to the sick
2- I bought a board and hang it in my room i put on it all the activities and interests or goals i am willing or able to do i wrote each one on a piece of paper decorated with bright colors lol 

I think i am going to be commited to these goals for a while i am not with rigide rules but eventhough they could be flexible but i want to stick on them to get the good habit and organize my life in a pleasant way and my main 3 goals are
At the top BE HAPPY DO EVERYTHING WITH JOY (and i mean it every single thing) 
The second A FRIEND CAN BE ANYWHERE AROUND ME 
3rd one DO SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL NICE AND SPECIAL FOR MY KIDS (to not forget them while taking care of myself also this will make my mind look forward and always search what should i do next for them) 

Thank you turnera for all your advices you inspired me


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## LVS

Uptown said:


> There is a BIG difference, however. The stressful situation you now are in is going to get better and better. In contrast, the one you left was only going to get worse and worse. I therefore agree with Turnera that you are on the right track and need to be patient to allow the meds to kick in. Do what is right for yourself -- for the first time in your life -- and have faith in your adult kids that they are intelligent enough to eventually see through your H's fog.


Uptown i am reading the same post that i read when you sent it but now it has a different touch or a magic touch on my mind and you said it right a much big difference between this stress and the one i left



ThinkTooMuch said:


> LVS,
> 
> A few years from now you'll look back and be extremely happy you separated.
> 
> This is not a painless journey, but it is necessary.
> 
> Mark


ThinkTooMuch that is so true and every time i read those too phrases i feel smiling and hope is coming back to me 
I started back looking in positive way to my life lol 


I know the medication has helped me but i am giving my life a new start now and when it is time to stop my med i will be on the right track ...


----------



## turnera

I am SO glad to hear your update! I tried to find your thread yesterday to check up on you but never found it, so thanks for letting us know. VERY good, positive steps forward. Let us know how it goes!

Your kids are lucky to have you, LVS.


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## Diamonds

LVS said:


> Reading about others encouraged me to post my story
> I am married since 28 years at the age of 18.
> I have 4 kids ages 26, 22, 17, and 12.
> My marriage started suffering since i had my first child, lack of respect, lack of communication, always he is right and always blaming me for everything bad and criticizing me in a hurtful way; names calling cursing yelling screaming all kind of emotional and verbal abuse
> In addition, we have nothing in comment not a single thing
> I use to forgive and try to forget and holding on for many reasons, the most important one is that i am catholic and i was raised in a way to keep the marriage no matter what and catholic marriage should stay until death, and woman should be obedient to her husband.......
> I was always telling myself that it is my choice and i have to take the full responsibility for that and it's my destiny and that's what God wrote for me.
> If i was raised differently I believe my marriage should be ended after having my first son but i always had a hope that my marriage will survive.
> With the passing years i started losing hope. My patience and capacity to let go and keep trying and hoping one day things will work can't help me anymore.
> Now we are separated since 3 months under the same roof
> I know we have nothing in comment I know he needs help that i cannot offer especially that he refused many times during all these years of suffering to do any counseling and he was always telling me to fix myself and everything will be fine.
> I know I should move out but when I get to the point to take the final decision I got scared and regret the thought of divorce and blame myself to think this way. I always ask God what he wants me to do. What is the right for me and my kids for the family life that i always dreamed to have.
> I don't know what's better for my 12 year old son is it better to stay in an unhealthy marriage and abusive relationship or seeking divorce
> I know both are hard but I don't know which is harder for my son
> knowing that he loves his dad and his dad loves him and give him everything he needs yes he is emotionally and verbally abusing him but in the other side he is very loving and caring person.
> I can't think clearly what to do? Is there any hope that this marriage will work? I am sure I can't go back to the same life.



OMG your story life sounds exactly like mines....Except I'm leaving the marriage because I can't take that abuse any longer. Now let me go back and read the other replys. I hope all has/will work out for you. Cause I sure do/did feel your pain.


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## turnera

LVS, how about an update?!


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## LVS

Diamonds said:


> OMG your story life sounds exactly like mines....Except I'm leaving the marriage because I can't take that abuse any longer. Now let me go back and read the other replys. I hope all has/will work out for you. Cause I sure do/did feel your pain.


Thank you Diamond for your thoughtful words i hope everything goes well with you because feeling my pain means you are living the same
I read your thread and i guess you waited longtime to leave as i did.

Good Luck


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## LVS

turnera said:


> LVS, how about an update?!


Hello my friends and thanks for checking on me in fact i was about to update either today or tomorrow

Tuesday was my first day volunteering. I've done quilting and i did some office work for the Director of Pastoral services and Communications..(I already told you about her she is the first one to whom i told my story after the priest and she offered me a lot of assistance support and guidance) and i am going to help her in her office each Tuesday. 
She also gave me the name and address of the person to whom i will be taking the Eucharist every week 

As for my goals i am working on them as i said 
It was a happy week i was trying to make fun of everything and always thinking positive  (couple things made me feel bad but didn't affect my goals  I will mention them later)
I started back working out and doing activities that i like to do...  I still don't have friends with whom i can share activities but i am meeting friendly people lol very soon i will be having friends 

And my D23 visited us Sunday and i went with my 3 kids and had dinner all together we had wonderful time 

Yesterday i went to my appointment, my T welcomed me and asked me details since my last visit which was July 1st i guess.

She was shaking her head all the time while listening to all what happened and she said that he needs to get treatment for a long time and when i told her of what caused my stress and depression especially about my parents expectations she said how your parents and brother are still expecting you to go back to him after all what he did?
I said the family is a sacred thing and above all but my bro told me that nobody wants me to live the same life i was living before but they are hoping he will change and we go back together 
She shook her head and said they are fantasizing this is in their dreams he is so sick he is not going to change.


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## LVS

Uptown, after reading your post on Diamond thread you led me to other post on gtrrkicw thread

I don't know what is happening to me every time i feel better and relaxed or happy i feel i can work on putting him back in my life and love him and for a certain time i would be fantasized with this thoughts and believing that it is going to happen and this is how i was thinking today and i admitted it in my mind until i came back from work and read your post it is like something shook me and woke me up and then i felt so sad and lost
I couldn't finish your post even though everything is true hmmmmm


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## turnera

Great update! So good to hear all this positive stuff in your life!


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## Uptown

LVS, thanks so much for the update. After following your progress since April, I very much enjoy hearing how you are doing and what is going on. Like you, I sometimes get those fantasy moments where I enjoy imagining that my exW gets help and returns to me as a changed woman, bringing back the four stepkids who never speak to me (as well as their children). Of course, I know it will never happen but I enjoy the daydream, just as though it were a wonderful movie. And, yes, I come out of it with a feeling of sadness but, as each year goes by, I recover from the thought faster and faster. I know it is up to me to do something useful with my life, not to wait on others to do it for me. So I move on, taking each day as it comes.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> Great update! So good to hear all this positive stuff in your life!


Thank you my friends 
For the first time in my life i am really on the right track and i feel i am going to be better even when i stop my med



Uptown said:


> ... but I enjoy the daydream, just as though it were a wonderful movie. And, yes, I come out of it with a feeling of sadness but, as each year goes by, I recover from the thought faster and faster. I know it is up to me to do something useful with my life, not to wait on others to do it for me. So I move on, taking each day as it comes.


There is a part of my life the med can't help with it
You know the most thing still causing stress is feeling i am going back to him. As you said Uptown, I am enjoying my daydream. But always after the dream there is the wake up at the end of the day and the wake up is so painful

I would lilke to share my conversation with my brother last week
He called me Tuesday in our conversation i asked him if he is still in contact with my H or my brother in law 

He said i didn't call anyone of them but your H called me a month ago and asked why nor me(my bro) or my parents contacted him all this time
I said to my bro what??? he is living around his family and they decided to cut any contact with me before i moved out and i am alone here Now he is turning the blame on my family for not contacting him after all what he did hehh (but i guess this is a way to start his conversation with a strong point when he makes my brother trying to find excuses to defend themselves)
But my brother said don't worry i told him how do you want anyone to call you when you said what you said to my parents on when you called them
Then my H asked my bro if there is a way to fix things with me
My bro said yes things will be fixed but first you need to work on yourself.(i didn't like his answer)
I said no i am not going back to him
My bro with resentment said this is what you told me? did you change your mind?(it is like he is asking me are you playing games)
I said do you think after all what he did and still doing just when he decides to start working on himself i will forget everything and go back to him????? 
Yes i told you that but not to say it to him this way. With the way you said it he will believe so and he can convince everyone that he is working on himself but if i don't go back to him i will be again the bad guy who didn't listen even to her Bro the monk

My bro said this is something you are the only one who decides about it, but you need also to be open and positive so no one will take it as a point against you and don't worry about what i talk to him i know how i am saying things. anyway your H said it too when i asked him to work on himself and why he stopped going to the Psychiatrist he said what if i worked on myself and she didn't come back to me i said (my bro said) so what!! you are working on yourself and this is going to help you get better.

They talk much more but my bro can't(as a priest) tell me everything
I know it is my decision but what is happening is not making me comfortable. All what my bro is doing is taking what i tell him and try to figure out the way to fix things and also he told me i can't blame my parents or him it is not easy for anyone what is happening to me.
What hurts me is for my family what is happening to me means for them first their daughter sister or mother is going to become divorced woman and second the family will be broken this what they think about it more than how was my life with my H and they are hoping every day that things are going to change)
(Yes this hurts me so much but i can understand how they think ...)

What hurts me more is i don't feel them supporting me even my brother i feel myself so alone and when MY FAMILY gives me credit fro something it is only to help me to calm down and relax so when my H is ready to try to fix things i will be ready and positive
it is like all what happened in my life doesn't worth what i am going through right now and when he is ready i need to forget everything and be the good wife

Sorry if long but those thoughts are always on my mind


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## Uptown

LVS, even if you could forget his meanness, how could you tell for sure that he has improved -- even after seeing a psych for several years? My exW, for example, went to six psychologists on a weekly basis for 15 years. I thought I had seen a mild improvement but, when she betrayed me and turned against me, I realized that there had been no improvement at all. She had just been playing mind games with the psych all that time. And I had been their cash cow.


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## turnera

LVS, one thing to remember is that this is all very fresh to them. In their minds, your 20+ years of marriage is the first thing they think of, so they are 'weighted' to think of you as being that married woman - anything else is an alien thought. Look at this first year as your 'test' period, your trial period, where you have it hardest and you have to shoulder the most pain. But next year, when they all start realizing this isn't just some fluke, that you ARE serious, they WILL back off. They'll start seeing you as the single woman, not the married woman who left her husband.

Once they do that, they'll start to support you.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> LVS, one thing to remember is that this is all very fresh to them. In their minds, your 20+ years of marriage is the first thing they think of, so they are 'weighted' to think of you as being that married woman - anything else is an alien thought. Look at this first year as your 'test' period, your trial period, where you have it hardest and you have to shoulder the most pain. But next year, when they all start realizing this isn't just some fluke, that you ARE serious, they WILL back off. They'll start seeing you as the single woman, not the married woman who left her husband.
> 
> Once they do that, they'll start to support you.


That's true turnera i can't blame them i myself think the same way too
It is going to be a really long year and sooo painful hmmmmm...


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## LVS

Uptown said:


> LVS, even if you could forget his meanness, how could you tell for sure that he has improved -- even after seeing a psych for several years? My exW, for example, went to six psychologists on a weekly basis for 15 years. I thought I had seen a mild improvement but, when she betrayed me and turned against me, I realized that there had been no improvement at all. She had just been playing mind games with the psych all that time. And I had been their cash cow.


Yes this is what my H is doing all the time mind games with everyone.

I am reading now The Five Love Languages ( it is an amazing book) I can see how much even when i thought i was doing right i didn't, because i wasn't speaking his love language. I can see how many mistakes i also have done in our relationship maybe if i did them the right way we wouldn't arrive to this point IS THAT TRUE ???? hmmmmm
I think i am confusing myself ok i know he split me black long time ago that means no matter what i do a single mistake would be enough to blow everything up lol
I feel my mind unable to analyse maybe if it is someone else story i would analyse it better lol
I know you can see it better than i do


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## turnera

If you had tried even harder, he would have just used it to gain more control.


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## LVS

Dear friends
I am going to post a new thread telling the story that affected deeply my life and marriage it is going to be hard to post it but it is harder to keep it


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## turnera

Which section will it be in?


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## LVS

Good question in fact i don't know which section i should put it i guess i am going to post it in coping with infidelity

I came back to add the link to my other thread
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/18828-guilty-years.html#post209976


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## LVS

To update my thread 
I am working to reach my goals getting better each week all positive thoughts in my mind. My time is full with the activities that i hanged on my board 

Sunday is family day and since my son is off school this whole week thanksgiving vacation, so my schedule for this week is going to be little bit different to spend quality time with him doing one on one things
Yesterday we went to church all together after church i went with my son to the gym 
Today i played with him soccer and basket ball on the play station for the first time lol
Our next activity would be cooking.....

My activities are each Monday i take the Eucharist to a wheel chair man. I feel honored to be carrying Jesus and to be able to take Jesus to someone in need and pray with him and for him 

Tuesdays i help the priest with the special mass and after that i go to the parish where i volunteer for office work and once a month i help women with quilting. 

For the daily activities I start my day with the workout/dancing (i am working to get back in shape and to lose the extra weight i gained since a year and so which is around 28 lb lol i already lost 14 the time to reach my goal is a week before Christmas)
other activities is reading and making jeweleries 

Next week i will start volunteering 3 hours a day 3 days a week in a child care center because i am a preschool teacher so i will gain some more experience in my field this will increase my chance to find a job in my field

So i am filling my time with useful things and i feel so much better


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## turnera

Oh my god! Do you hear how many wonderful things you are accomplishing? I'm SO glad for you!

And guess what? I, too, set up plans to volunteer to outreach to our church members who can't get out and do things on their own.


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## LVS

That is great for you too turnera right? 
And yes turnera i feel so happy and glad for the huge change i am experiencing 
Do you think it is the influence of the medication???
I forgot to tell you i also became Avon representative since i will be meeting so many women i could also benefit from knowing them wish me luck 

Today i met a new friend from my country she is the woman i told you about her who work to the car insurance company and to whom my H was talking bad things about me, we had cool conversation together and she was asking me advice on how to deal with her marriage problems 
She moved out couple weeks ago 
Before now i was avoiding to see her because with the depression that i was living i wasn't able to see anyone unhappy or to give any advice to anybody but since i started feeling better i gave her 
time to listen to her problems and to give her more advice 

After meeting with her i went shopping with my son and we got cake mix and he was the Chef who prepared it and baked it he was happy but i was happier. I am glad i am having this time with him helping him to get off the TV the computer games and the play station games.

If anyone can give me any suggestion of how i can spend one on one time with S12, or maybe it is an idea for a new topic.


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## turnera

Awesome report, LVS, so happy for you!

And good for you for getting your son away from the electronics!

How about you do the same thing once a week - shop for a recipe and cook it?

Do you take him to the library? It's free, they have events for teenagers, and you can rent movies and music at many of them - you could try out new forms of music together, or watch new movies, once a week.

Do you go on walks? That was the thing my DD20 loved best growing up, was going on walks with me - just 'us' time, where she could talk about whatever she wanted, work out her problems.

Can you sign up for a class together at the YMCA, or your city's recreation center? Maybe a martial arts class? It would be good for both of you!


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## LVS

I didn't know about the city recreational center i checked it online and found the location
Thank you turnera you gave me helpful ideas and yes i need to do things to get him away from electronics

Yesterday my son told me my dad is missing you and he said he is going to do everything you want he is ready to be your servant just to accept to go back to him.

I felt my heart broken but than i thought he is still manipulating my kids if he is changing he would at least find a way to contact me

What do you think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

LVS, you already know what Turnera and I are thinking. He should stop using his own children in that manner. But his willingness to do so is fully expected.


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## turnera

Write him a letter spelling out what he'd have to do (12 months of counseling, etc.) and mail it to him. And ask him to stop using the kids; explain that if he were sincere, he wouldn't harm them.


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## LVS

You are right he is still using them even few days ago i asked my D18 how is he doing she said he never changed he is growing his beard and he said he doesn't want to join the family for ThanksGiving and Christmas because we are not family D said my Brother was always in m,y country and we were celebrating holidays without him he said but the most important person is not going to be there so no family without your mom
she said dad we are a family with you and we are a family with mom we didn't want what happened but since it happened we need to admit it and move on in our life
she told me mom he is still playing the victim role 
i said this is your dad he didn't change all my life he was like that always the victim and always negative

And i let her know how proud i am of her assertive answers : )

It hurt me what he is doing to himself and to our kids

This is another story my D asked me Sunday why my dad is always blaming me for everything. in any conversation he turned it to make me feel guity
I said don't let anything affect you it is not about you
Your dad got used to blame me. Since i am not there and since he is not able to blame himself the only one he found 
close to me is you that's why he is blaming you
she felt better she hugged me and left

Turnera you said to write him letter i don't feel it is going to make any difference
he already knows he needs therapy and i already emailed him more than once to not put the kids in between he didn't reply and he is still putting them in between
plus he showed my kids a copy of the letters to tell them how bad their mom is

so what do you think ???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Ignore him and educate your kids so they don't take on his disease.


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## LVS

Hope you had a HAPPY and BLESSED THANKSGIVING DAY 

I was at work and my kids had the Thanksgiving dinner with their dad and his family.
I got of work early and i went with my kids to watch the movie TANGLED  we had good time  then my son went back to his dad's and my daughters went shopping with their friends. You know it is black Friday 

Once upon a time....

...I came back to my castle and stayed alone drown in sadness. Oh! I changed it to a dramatic movie! hmmm I need to think how to put a magic touch and turn it to the happy ending...

....they lived happily ever after!!!!


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## LVS

Now what is making me drown in sadness?????
My D23 told me that her dad wants to meet with me and he needs to tell me something
and it is up to me to set the time and the location.

I told her why he told you to tell me? If he doesn't want to call he can send me email and say whatever he needs to say.
She started defending him she said mom you know dad he doesn't want to ask in person because he doesn't like to hear a negative answer. 
I told her email would be good why he keeps putting all of you in between
She said it's ok now what do you say Yes?
I said give me time, tomorrow i will give you my answer.

Now i am confused my thoughts are blurred and don't know what to do or what to say what i know is i am extremely sad
I don't want to see him and i don't know what i should do
I am afraid. I feel all the stress now and i feel like if someone is choking me. Flash back memories,of all what he did before i moved out and after, made me cry

She doesn't know why he wants to see me but i can guess he wants me to give him another chance
??????????????????????


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## LVS

I guess i am going to send him email and ask him what he needs to talk about, and that he needs to answer me by email. The kids don't need to get in our conversations.
Then i need to let him know that after all what he did and said before and after i moved out makes me not wanting to look at his face. So what he needs to talk about he needs to write it in an email and that it is time for him to grow up and stop interfering the kids in our business and let the communication be between me and him whatever it is going to look like.

If he replied i will be asking him what he did during these 4 months of separation to help himself?

Am I wrong???
Any other suggestion????


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## ThinkTooMuch

LVS,

You are doing everything absolutely right. 
I've been reading this thread regularly, I am extremely happy you've managed to disconnect from your h, can't see any reason to see him in person; e-mail is the best way to deal with him.


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## kendra2705

I think the rule of being obediant to your husband stands where the husband is the wiser one and the clever and sensible one , no one would mind being obeidiant then , but now days , some people haven't got a clue how to treat people and abuse shouldn't be tollerated , I think god would understand if you bin him x


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## turnera

Just email him. Ask him what HE has done in the time apart to fix HIM.


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## LVS

Mistakenly i had the last message posted 3 times sorry for that


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## LVS

Thank you


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## LVS

Thank you ThinkTooMuch and Kendra2705 for your time to read and reply i apreciate it

Somtimes i feel lost and unable to decide,
When i think i might go back to my H as well as when i think i might not go back to him i live the same feeling like if there is a rock over my chest
That's why i am confused

But there is at least one thing i am sure of which is nothing happened that makes me feel i want or i need or i have to see my H now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

I sent him this letter

"I found myself in need to write this letter.
I offered you a way to communicate with me and you ignored it. You are using the silent treatment since before i moved out.
I asked you to not put the kids in between and you ignored it too.

I was clear in the 3 emails, I told you if you need to communicate with me and since you don't talk to me, to send me a letter via email or through the P.O.BOX
I don't want our kids to be involved in our problems they don't have to deal with that. Please for the best of our kids stop hurting them it is enough for them the divorce that we are going through they don't need more hurt.

Now you asked me to meet with you and it is on me to set the time and the location. This request also you could send it via email but one more time you wanted to put our kids in between!!!!!!!

By ignoring all my attempt to communicate with you and with all what you said and did all this period before and after i moved out, You left me wondering why suddenly you decided to meet with me? 
Should I when you decide that you can face me and talk to me to be ready and run to you??????WHY???
Is it to blame me for more bad things in your life? or to hurt me in different way? Or what???Whatever the reason is, i prefer to read it in an email because all what you did until now was hurting and hurting and hurting....what makes me uncomfortable to meet with you!!

I will be waiting a reply from you, and to be honest, from now on, I won't take seriously any message you send it to me through our kids or anyone else. You can at least start showing me some respect and communicate with me the way we suppose to communicate."

Was I soo hard on him??? I wrote what i felt and expressed my mind


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## Uptown

It sure did not seem too hard to me. Yet, because a dumped BPDer is so hateful, selfish, unstable, and vindictive, I don't think it matters what you say to him as long as it is not something he can use against you in court. Due to his very nature, he will misperceive your intentions no matter what you say. Moreover, he is incapable of trust you and thus will not believe you -- even when he sees clearly what you are trying to say.


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## LVS

Till now no reply and as you said he doesn't seem he is going to reply Is there any other or better words that i should use when i write to him 
I am trying to write in a legal way so he can't, as you said uptown, use anything against me in the court or use them against me with my kids

He was all our life like you said *misperceive your intentions no matter what you say. Moreover, he is incapable of trust you and thus will not believe you -- even when he sees clearly what you are trying to say.*
Uptown your words brought back bad memories you are so much right.
What i wrote down just i wrote it to take it out of my heart sorry my friends if my post is long what i wrote i wrote it with tears yes i am crying like if this happened right now unbearable hurt 

He never showed me that he trusts me never even he was doubting everyman who talk to me or smile while talking to me without me doing anything out of normal i know it was lack of confidence in himself as a man but it was other way to kill me more
Later he was calling me and my D23 as w**** until people around us started doubting me being bad woman and making my daughter also act bad this made me suffer a lot because in my country, i guess anywhere, this is something horrible. I was all my life protecting my reputation to keep always my head up. When he messed up my reputation i tried to leave him but back than my Brother brought me back he had good intentions to keep the family together and also he said if you leave people will think you are bad and that's why you left.... but WHAT ABOUT ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!! it was like stabbing my chest with the same knife several times.......

I was asking myself why i am faithful to this man????????????? why i am fighting to not be with other men who were always chasing me???????Why should i fight anymore when all what i worked for it HE mr smart husband knocked it down instead of being proud of me    ME whom my heart never knew what HATE means i hated him 
People use to see him as a good person but who turned to be bad and ugly of course for them it is because his wife is doing something bad. Every time i use to go out without my h i was misjudged by people around us. sooooo unfaiiiiir!!!!!  
I lost hope i lost the meaning of anything in my life and desperately i was like someone drowning and raising her hand waiting a rescue. I wanted to live to find someone who cares for me and loves me as i deserve.....   

Why now i still want to go back to him??   why???? If i think of one thing good that he did to me there are hundreds bad things around it....

Why he was so bad???? i wanted good marriage i dreamed to stay together for ever how can i bring this dream back i fought for this dream but i lost 
and i am still each time i collect some power i want to fight again!!!!!


----------



## turnera

The real solution here is for you to continue to work on your self esteem. Once you're ok with yourself, you will be able to either take him or lose him. 

THEN, he will have to do some real work to deserve you.


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## LVS

Thank you turnera and i know that all of you my friends are tired of repeating the same thing over and over i appreciate all your time and replies no matter what 
I am not going to blame myself as i use to i am really proud of all what i did and what i am doing i went in really challenging situations and i did great job lol i know and turnera, you said it right sometimes my self esteem is down 
So today after reading your post i went to this site
Selfesteem4women - Self Esteem Home Page
i took the test of self esteem I saw how much i got improved and it helped me to figure out what areas i need to work on better 

So i will be adding few goals on my sunny board


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## turnera

I took the test: scored 34%. ugh


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## LVS

turnera said:


> I took the test: scored 34%. ugh


Wow you never give impression that you may have any problem with your self esteem (not in the way you talk or in the way you give your opinion and advice)
You don't seem wanting to work on building your self esteem.
Is it because you see what is at the end of the tunnels and this is not giving you the motivation to do so?

I took it twice one time how i am now and one time how i use to be.and i use to be 40 soo close to your score
now i got 65%
My self esteem still shaken. I still have times were it goes down because of the instability that i am living right now 
i still need some work. This test helped me to figure out where i really should put my effort


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## turnera

No, I'm just too depressed and have too much to do right now to want to sit down and work on myself. Maybe next year I'll have time. Sounds like you're in pretty good shape, though.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> No, I'm just too depressed and have too much to do right now to want to sit down and work on myself. Maybe next year I'll have time. Sounds like you're in pretty good shape, though.


turnera it is hard to know what we need to do to feel better and not doing it you are really a strong woman i hope you don't need to wait so long....

And yes i am doing good but still need to be more stable so if i have to stop the antidepressant i won't get back to depression because the things that stress my life didn't change a lot but i am working on...


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## LVS

By the way I stopped by Sr X office because she asked me for some update.
I summarized what happened since last time i saw her.

She was happy for the improvement i did and she said so you don't feel you want to reconcile with your H (the way she asked the Q was like she wants to hear no i don't  )

I told her about my confusion and how i think sometimes i want to go back to him and when i feel i might go back how desperate i become.

She said you are doing great keep doing the same and with the passing days you will become better adjusted to your new life and you will feel better and then you will be more sure to not be living a fantasy about your h

I told her i know it is a dream and yes it is a fantasy i wish something can change and we go back together hmmm but there are no positive sign to make me stay in fantasy all what happened and what is happening brings me back to the sad reality

She said so you know then next time he asks you to see him you can easily say no i am sorry you don't have place in my life anymore and when the divorce will be final and you got adjusted to your new life you will be more happy i am so glad for all what you are doing.. And she gave me a warm hug

Wow i never expected this support from my church wow very impressing


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## turnera

Yeah, imagine that...churches actually helping you. lol


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## LVS

I was expecting Sr X to encourage me to reconcile but she was not. Wow she knew him from the first visit 
I don't know how to express it but i can feel she wanted to tell me don't go back to him but she didn't allow herself to say that...

More to update
Yesterday i had a conversation on the Phone with my D23
I told her about the email that i sent to her dad 
She said mom if you don't want to go back to my dad let we know so he stop trying.
I said what he is trying and how?
She said he is trying to change and you know nothing will motivate him if you are not going back to him
I said This is not a way to change if he doesn't change for himself at first i don't want him to change for me....

Tell me why he wants me back if he believes all the bad things that he said about me he should not be honored to take me back She said he is not saying anything bad about you anymore all what he wants now is how to get you back Whatever we do as family he is always unhappy and isolating himself he is missing you in his life.
I said your dad will never know how to be happy not if i am with him or away he can't see anything good in his life he will always see the dark side....

She was taking his side...I told her i can't blame you for taking your dad side
it is because you got used all your life to see the good image of the father i was always defending him but he was always putting me down,treating me bad and shaking my image in front of you that's why you have this habit to always say we can't blame him but it is ok if you blame your mom.....

It was long conversation i tried to summarize but still long sorry for that
I was glad even though it was on the phone but i said what i should say and what she should know and discuss with me instead of rejecting me from her life the way she did after i moved out...


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## turnera

That's wonderful progress, LVS. Really wonderful. She's listening. And maybe now looking at her dad with a more open mind.


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## Uptown

LVS, yes, that is wonderful news that your D23 is back to communicating with you on the phone!


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## LVS

It was hard for me to have my birthday alone
But i tried to be positive all the day i took it day off from work and i spent some me time i tried to enjoy it as much as i can 

I died my hair and went to church then i went shopping later i went for dinner with kids

My kids made me a surprise at home they got me cake and my favorite plant (the orchid)i was so happy until my D18 told me there is *something from her dad on my bed.*
He sent me a big bouquet of flowers and roses (all my life i adore roses and he rarely brought me any of them)
He got also a greeting card well picked for what is written inside it and he wrote me a letter and he sent me the folder that holds the papers that he was threatening to use them against me in the court ( the silly papers).

I yelled at my daughter for not listening to me and bringing things from her dad
I was crying of hurt and anger and also because i hurt my daughter by blaming her and yelling at her
I ripped the flowers in pieces and told her with anger look how your dad did to my heart and than i was back yelling at her for putting herself again in between
I told her if your dad really care for me he wouldn't do something he knows it is going to mess up my special day....


----------



## LVS

I am going to post what he wrote 

*The card says:*

WHAT CAN I SAY TO SHOW MY LOVE

What can i say to the one i love
more than anyone or anything
when i've so often failed
to let it show?

What can i say to the one 
who shares my life, my hopes,
my dreams, my days, my nights...
the one i can't imagine life without?

What can i say to the one
who stood by me
through good times and bad times,
the one i sometimes
seem to take for granted, 
even though i don't mean to?

What can i say to the one
who understands me
better than i understand myself
and whose support , encouragement, 
and belief in me
help me be a better person?

What can i say to show my love?

My only hope is that you can feel it
when i put my arms around you
and tell you you're
the only one for me for ever...
because you are

(All what he wrote on the card was "Happy Birthday")


*His letter says:*

My Dear 

(i say my dear because i don't deserve and i have no right to say something else)
.... The message i want to send you is ; Even though i lost the most precious jewelery in my life, i promise with actions not only words and after i knew her real value i will try hard and as a premium goal to put her back into my life after i earn her for real, I will keep her at the center of my house and life so anyone and everyone can see her and touch her i will let her shine and not like i was before hiding her and fearing to lose her 
you will see the result of my promise because i won't lose my jewelery until my last breath
I know i don't deserve you and if i was you i would do like you did long time ago but i won't lose hope and you will see a person totally different than the one you ever knew."


*On the folder he wrote*

"I don't need these papers and from the beginning i didn't need them because i can't imagine myself one day standing against you in the court. I would rather prefer death.
This folder became a heavy thing over my shoulders that's why i am sending it to you to do whatever you want with it "


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## amanda1959

Your husband has told you the answer you needed to hear "fix yourself and everything will be ok". This is about you! and why you are staying. Sorry but this doesn't sound like a relationship that will get better with time....things usually don't when there is abuse. After 28years you have been conditioned and striped of your power. Your children are learning how to be abusive to women.
PS. God will understand my love...leave him


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## Uptown

LVS, after 28 years of demeaning you and verbally abusing you, a man capable of mature love would be acknowledging his behavioral problems and seeking years of therapy to learn how to control them. 

What you see, instead, is a man with the emotional development of a four year old who is looking for the easy solution: some magical words that can make everything okay by "showing his love." Hence, the card's title of "What Can I Say?" effectively translates into "What is the Easy Fix?"

Moreover, there is a world of difference between regret (i.e., saying he is sorry) and remorse (i.e., not only apologizing but also committing himself to years of therapy to ensure he never repeats the same pattern).


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## LVS

Thank you amanda1959 and uptown i feel he is going to pressure me now because it is the holidays season where families get together
also the divorce should be finalized within two months
so it is going to be hard time on him my kids and me. I am trying not to let myself suffer to much even though i am still on anti-depressant but i am working hard on myself to not let the black thoughts get me.

When i posted what he said i didn't tell you about my letter to him because i am doubting myself and i needed to hear others opinion sorry if i am making you read a lot but it is important for me that you see things as they are so my mind won't doubt and be confused when knowing that you said so because you know all the details(my sick mind)lol


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## LVS

I sent him this email the same day
"Thank you for your card and your letter. Sorry, i am sending them back to you but you need to keep reading them to keep refreshing your memory. It is not me who needs to remember those words.
You sent nice words. I wish i can believe them. Back in time you said so many beautiful words similar to those, you made big promises and you said you know the diamond that you have and you want to make it up for me. Many and many times i have heard those words they are stuck in my mind but it was hard for you to remember your promises thinking i am going to last for ever.

A diamond could be in our hands, but not knowing it's value, we keep stepping on it and hammering it, thinking it is fake or thinking it is so strong to brake.
It will come time when we lose our treasure either by braking it in pieces or by losing it to someone else who really appreciate it; and even appreciate each broken piece. 
Then we woke up when it is too late... really late....

In our story you didn't lose your diamond to someone else you did good job by braking it in pieces, i am still collecting my broken pieces trying to build them back to their original place the way God wanted them to be!!!

You said you are going to improve and change by actions not by words....
I hope you can do things to become a positive and a happy person. Good for you at first and for who are close to you.

You never know if you are going to have me back as a wife or not. I can't give you promises. You may become the wonderful person who i always dreamed to be with and earn me back and you may become that wonderful person but without me in your life. Right now i can't think of it, by then we will see what the future hold for us.
I hope for you to become a happy person and appreciate what you have in your life instead of spending your time crying for what you don't have like you did in all your life until now."

PS i sent him back the card and the letter and the folder but he sent them back to me with another letter hmmm i don't want to put them in trash he should take them back and do whatever he wants to do with them i feel mad and feel he still wants to control me in any way
I am going to send them back but i don't know what i should write in my letter to him i need your help after you read his letter i will translate the important things in it


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## LVS

He thanked me for the email and he said he was surprised because he was expecting a more hostile letter.
Then he said
"I am returning back everything to you because i don't need anything to refresh my memory, i remember what is in it hundreds times daily in my mind and my heart.so i am sending it back to you . 
Do whatever you need with it you can burn it or rip it or keep it.

I hope you don't accuse me for lying because you know me i never lie you can say i failed but not lied....

...Briefly, honestly i am really upset because in all your letters even though you denied it but all what i can see is a deep hate, all the facts show it to me. This makes me wanting to always guilt myself for my crime it is like if i killed a hundred innocent person. This makes me desperate and thinking days and nights about my crime toward you. Do i deserve all this suffering that i live because of your very very hurtful punishment. especially you left me when i was mostly needing you because of my health condition and being laid of work. It is ok i am still and i will keep saying all my life that you are right and i am a criminal i don't deserve mercy or forgiveness, and i deserve all what i am going through right now and even more. My only regret if i died at any moment (life in hands of God)is that i couldn't, and even i wasn't given the chance to make up all what i caused to you and to our kids(to you first, and to the kids as family)and then my death will be along with a grief you can't imagine, especially that i am living it daily, it became my daily bread, I know all what i am saying doesn't mean to you anything and i don't ask you for anything, and i know you are going to say that i am lying just to convince you but be sure that it is not my goal.
What i meant to say is that (after what you did)you and all who are around me still asking me to change to become better and look to life in a positive way, so maybe(as you said) i will have a chance even if it is small chance to get back together. That means you and the others are asking me to be able to do a miracle, because what you are asking for is like you are asking someone living alone in the forest to live happy and look to life with hope or like if you ask someone who had a cancer to heal himself without using med or having someone by his side. Despite of all i won't lose hope, as much as God gives me strength in spite of all what i am going through, i will try to accomplish what you are asking me by a personal effort and as much as God is going to give me life, to reach what i am looking for which is make up what i mentioned above.
......I asked to meet with you, you can set the place and time in presence of the person you want even if it is going to be the police in case you are scared, but i should meet with you and have a conversation about very important matters, i can't talk about them in an email or a letter even not by phone. That's why i am still waiting your answer and i hope it won't take long time for the importance of the subject.
Sorry for bothering you with this letter. Thanks"


His letter makes me feel more exhausted because uptown as you previously said his sick mind makes him not understanding what i am saying and his letter is showing that clearly which means i need to repeat one more time all what i already said more than once...That's why i am going to ignore this letter i won't reply about it 

I need to know what should i do
For me as i see he is still showing my kids that he is changing even my D18 said that he is now different than before...
By sending the letters through my kids and even the flowers he is showing everyone that he loves me and cares for me after all what i did to him 
So i am thinking to be positive and meet with him to not look as the bad guy in the eyes of my kids
But i am thinking to talk to Sister X if she can be the third person

WHAT DO YOU THINK???


----------



## Powerbane

If Sister will go with you - that's probably a good person to bring. Remember he's sick and I'm not making excuses for him - he's not at rock bottom yet enough to know he needs help. I pray for you both. 

Godspeed.


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## Uptown

LVS, I'm not a good one to give you any suggestions on meeting with him. My experience is that it makes no difference whatsoever what you say or how nice you are to him. With an unstable man, any impression you make is fleeting and will be washed aside by his next splitting event. Hence, IMO, trying to explain things just right and leave a favorable impression on an untreated BPDer is a total waste of time. 

The issue, then, is whether you should be with him for the kids' attitudes to improve. I don't see why the kids cannot spend part of the day on Christmas with one parent and then later with the other parent. Moreover, I believe their attitudes toward you will improve greatly with time.

But, of course, you know the situation and must decide -- on your own -- whether the kids would be all that better off to warrant the cost to you of having to meet with him.


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## turnera

I'm sorry but he is still NOT taking responsibility. He is still thinking he can sweet talk you into coming home.

IMO you should have a printed out list of requirements designed by your therapist for how he can prove he is changing.


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## LVS

Thank you Powerbane uptown and turnera for your time to read and post and Powerbane thanks for your prayer

Sister X was off today i spoke with the Director of Pastoral Life and Communication (she is the first one who knew about my story) she said either me or sister X we can be in the meeting with your H but you don't need to meet with him before he starts listening to what you asked him which is not involving your kids.
her words made my wings clapping I felt i can breath i can fly  . that's what i need to do 
This is a way to keep me away from meeting with him now i can relax lol. 
So turnera i will have time to think whether i get this list from my T or no. i don't believe the list might help him he only see what he wants to see. All what i am looking for is finding the right answers so he won't be able to use my words against me.

I just sent him this email 

"Honestly i am not trying to be mean. I am trying to protect my rights and my kids wellbeing.
I can't let go things even for one time because you don't respect what i requested many times.

Flowers could be sent through the florist shop if not in person, then i have the right to refuse them and send them back or accept them. 
By sending them with our daughter you were pressuring me to accept something or refuse it in front of my kids. This is if i don't want to talk about sending them on my birthday reminding me of all the mistreatment and hurt that you have done to me it was really hurtful. And what you did made our kids face my reaction and that was really bad.
Those last few days our daughter suffered enough from both of us. 
I yelled at her, raised my voice and blamed her because of something you could avoid it by simply contacting me directly in appropriate way. You probably also forced her to bring those things to me.

I have gave you two easy ways to communicate by email or by mail and you still insisting on using our kids. why?????

You asked me to meet with you and i can't do that until you show me at least some change in the way you are treating me.

Tomorrow you will get all the papers, letters and cards that you sent to me through our kids. I sent them back this time by mail to avoid one more time putting our kids in between. They have had enough. 
I took what is mine from the folder which is the card of THE HUMAN TOUCH the other papers are yours, you made yourself copies of my papers i don't need them i have the originals. Do not send them back to me and do whatever you need with them. They are yours.

As for the letters, if you want me to know something or if you want to request something or communicate with me, it should be by using the right way. No more using our kids.

I am not trying to diminish the importance of the subject that you want to talk about but the truth is when you send me the first request through our daughter on the Thanksgiving day and i send you email on the same day and you ignore it until i got your letter yesterday through our daughter, this makes me guess that it is not so urgent and it can wait until you show some change not for only one time but this change should be repeated more than once to feel comfortable if i want to meet with you."

Uptown you are right it is a waste of time that's why i feel exhausted but because my kids are involved i can't run away and if i talk in more details it is because i picture my kids reading my letters so i am not trying to make him understand but i am trying to help my kids to see clearly..

But i guess he will learn now that i am serious about it and he will stop thinking that he can, as you said turnera, sweet talk me into coming home ( i loved this one lol)


----------



## turnera

Very good letter.


----------



## LVS

He sent a letter through the mail post Should i be happy or not i don't know. It shows his hidden anger.
In the letter he wrote: 

"I was surprised and chocked from the hate that you feel toward me even it is almost six month we have been separated. 
How criminal you see me to treat me this bad in spite of all the positive things i am doing trying to prove my good intentions. I can't blame you but we should be living now the spirit of Christmas which is forgiveness and love.

Honestly since you sent your last email, that include the same language like the ones you've sent before, i was thinking days and nights of a way to respond but at the last min i changed my mind i don't want to defend myself because i promised myself to not have any argument anymore with you. We need to live the present and future, the past is over..

But i still have two points to discuss so you don't keep repeating them.
1st I don't like writing emails and i am not as good as you are in English and you didn't give me your address to send you letters (silly reason He is good in English plus he had my mailing address since my first email) that's why i had to use the kids not to hurt them as you are accusing me but because it was the only way to reach you. 

Also i still believe that there is no problem if our kids exchange letters between us instead of using the post office and pay more expenses. We raised them to help the others so what is the problem if they helped their own parents....

2nd When i asked you the first time to meet with me and you said i talk to you when i want and i don't when i don't want you also one more time accused me for something is not true the reason i didn't talk to you before was because i was waiting all the time for you to cool down and for your nerves to relax......

When i asked you the 1st time to meet with me you found a way to run away and make the reason to meet with you a silly reason and demean the importance of the subject. When i was disappointed me with your email i didn't ask it again and i waited your birthday to ask but unfortunately the effect of your last respond was even harder..

Here i am for the third time repeating my request to meet with you and i expect what your answer is going to be. I hope your letter this time is going to be in Arabic and it doesn't matter if you sent it through the kids.

This is going to be my last letter through the post office and before we have the meeting together when you command that."

I feel bad i don't know what to do
I can picture your comment on his letter
At this moment i wish i can disappear to a place where no one knows me....
Tell me something. What should my reply look like?
I am soooo tired! I don't feel i want to reply.
Should i ignore it?


----------



## turnera

I will NOT accept any correspondence from you that is delivered through our children. YOU may feel you are not harming them, but that is your opinion, not mine. I will no longer allow you to determine what MY opinions are, as we are no longer together.

I have made my wishes very clear. I understand you have different goals. Unfortunately, our goals no longer follow the same path. 

I also have made it very clear what I would require from you, to make up for the hurt you have caused me all these years, and for me to be willing to ever accept you into my life again. So far, I have seen no evidence of you going through extensive therapy to learn why you try to control people, why you can never accept responsibility, and why you try to remain the perpetual victim. 

I cannot be married to that man any more. If that man were to reach complete humility, and go for help in honesty, and learn how he did in fact harm others, and then be willing to do the hard work to learn how to be a more humble, open, honest, giving man who no longer tries to make others feel guilty or responsible for his happiness...maybe then I would be willing to meet with you agaijn. but so far, you have not done that, so I can only assume you are not sincere, you just want what you want - your own happiness. And I am no longer willing to be the person to provide that.

Do let me know - in a letter (here is my address again, since you have obviously lost it) - if you ever have gone through a full six months of therapy with a psychologist, and are ready for me to read his/her findings.


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## LVS

lvs spoke with me today, Dec. 21. She was conflicted because of her estranged husband's request to meet with her. I am writing what I have heard from her.

I believe lvs is conflicted because:

One of the hand she says:
- I don't believe he can change
- I think he only says things he thinks I want to hear but I don't trust what he says
- If I go back to him I will feel trapped and lose my freedom

On the other hand she says:
- If I give up hope in the marriage I give up my dream
- If i give up hope I turn my back on 28 years of efforts to make a good marriage
- If I give up hope, part of me dies.

lvs needs to move off the dime of waiting for something to happen. The legal system is moving her toward divorce but she is on the fence.

I believe she does need mediator if she meets with her estranged husband, so that she can sort out what she felt and heard during the meeting and see how it fits with the above.

Sister X, cpps
Pastoral Coordinator

She said that it is better for me if my T can be the mediator and she wrote the above letter to give it to my T she said i need to see her before meeting with my H i need help to feel better and be able to decide otherwise i should request delay of the divorce..

I feel it is good idea i really need help the time is pressing and i feel more stress each coming day
A part of me wants to give up and go back to him
Other part is afraid to give up the dream, but at the same time wants freedom

I feel myself silly to be going through divorce and not able to make my mind yet 

turnera, your letter is going to help me with setting rules, what i accept and what i don't...
and if my T agreed to be the mediator i will be able to say them to my H in person


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## turnera

lvs, you CAN have your husband and marriage back, in the right way.

But only if you you stick to your guns, show him what you HAVE to have from him...and then let HIM decide if he's willing to do what it takes to become a better man.

Anything LESS than that is YOU sacrificing.


----------



## LVS

Merry Christmas to all my friends and people who take time to read in my post i wish you a happy holiday time with your families and loved ones with a lot of blessings.....

I had great time myself with my D23 D18 and S12 everyone loved their presents, we called my S27 and spent with him a while on the phone It was a wonderful day we went out for lunch and we are having nice time together


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## Uptown

LVS, I wish you a happy holiday time too. It sounds like you started off on the right foot by having such a wonderful Christmas experience with three children at home and one on the phone. I am so happy for you.


----------



## LVS

Thank you Uptown. turnera i am confused 
Do i really want to go back to him????? I still don't have anything to encourage me to do it other than just a dream.
A dream that i can not let go But
A dream that i am still not sure if i can realize anything of it.

The questions in my mind are
Do i really need to let go? or, do i want to let go?
Do i need to go back? or, do i want to go back?
I feel myself trapped again around the same circle of doubt and confusion like before i moved out

My kids left now to their grandmas so i found time to update you..

I called and left a message to my T to contact me she is off for the holiday she will be back by Mon so i expect that she will call.

Yesterday i had work and my kids spent Christmas eve with their dad and his family until i came back from work. They met me home where we opened the presents and we had fun time together they kept me up until 3:30 am  and i had to wake up 6 because i had to go to work for few hours

Briefly when i opened my door at morning i found presents outside by the door. Of course you can guess from who! Yes from my H for my kids and one gift for me with a "Thinking of You" greeting card and a short letter(how he knew my address? no one of my kids told him but i am not surprised he knows the location so i was expecting that soon or late he is going to find out my address)

Anyway in his letter he said " I meant to not get you a personal gift but in this holly Christmas day i wanted to get something for the family which i hope you won't return it or trash it , you can keep it and count it as one of the things that you took from the old house when you moved out
As for the greeting card i wish that you throw it or destroy it rather than return it back to me like you did the last time.

That's all....
I din't open his gift yet i still don't know if i am going to do it but till now i don't feel i want. I feel neutral with some confusion. I know i am curious to know what it is but i guess it is a statue of the holly family

I adore gifts but it is not what i want or need right now he doesn't want to understand and in my analyses, he is trying to add more pressure on me so in his mind maybe if he pressures me my heart will become back tender and i would change my mind and go back together to become one whole family again.

What do you think?

P.S: I learned from my D23 that he left home since yesterday after they came to my house. He also left gifts and greeting cards by his sister and brother houses and this is something unusual for him to do it.
Till now he didn't come back and he is not answering his phone.


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## LVS

My D23 left today she asked me before she left where did i put the gift that i got from her dad? I told her it is still unopened in my closet and i am not going to open it. She didn't comment.
(I didn't tell them he sent me a gift. He told them and he said if your mom doesn't want the gift you can take it and use it it is a kitchen utensil anyone of you can use it).

WHAT IS THAT MEAN?????

For me he is still using my kids and it is one of his controlling ways I really don't want to keep it even if unopened.

I've ripped his bouquet and trashed it and he knew that. What message i have sent him? any person can understand that he should never send me another gift at least in the near future.

Sending me a gift then saying to my kids if i don't want they can take it. BS.

I want to mail it to him. 
Please tell me what do you think may work better 
1-keep it home but unopened or 
2-Send it back to him by mail.

By the way when he disappeared he was at the casino the whole time??????? no comment !!!!!!


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## Uptown

> Please tell me what do you think may work better


Work better? Work BETTER? Has anything "worked" with that man in nearly 30 years? LVS, I understand your desire to appear fair and reasonable to your children but I see no reason for you to worry about doing the exact right thing for a BPDer husband. As you've seen a thousand times in 30 years, and as you've seen recently with the destroyed flowers, _nothing works_ with a man having strong BPD traits. 

His perception of you is distorted and it changes every time his feelings change because those feelings (not facts) constitute his "reality." Hence, trying to send him the very best message and do the very best thing is pointless. Trying to build up a store of good will with a BPDer is as futile as trying to establish a sand castle beside the sea. It is all washed away by his next tide of feelings.

Given that you are already reliant on him for child support, you might think of the gifts as a very inefficient form of support -- which means allowing them to accumulate in the closet until one of your adult children carts them off. If you find his display of "largess" in front of your children offensive, however, you could simply throw them away or donate them to charity.


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## turnera

The only thing I would be doing is IGNORING everything he does, says, and sends. If you didn't want the gift, why didn't you give it to your daughter?

Are you ready to be honest with yourself, and us? IMO, you are choosing to stay wrapped in the drama. You KNOW how to get out; you just aren't.


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## LVS

Uptown that is what i am thinking right now. I am going to leave his gift in the closet. For how long?!! I don't know it depends of how things will turn to be in the coming days... 
Uptown! each time my mind starts to grow wings and try to fly your words put me back on the ground and open my eyes to the reality that i am trying somehow to ignore. hmmm

turnera you asked why i didn't give it to my daughter23, in fact i didn't think to give it to her and i don't think she will take it anyway she won't be able to use it because she is living with a woman and her kids she can't be able to use this gift in their kitchen
As for letting my kids use it in my house this doesn't make me feel comfortable in the other hand if i do so maybe i will be giving him satisfaction and false hope in something i don't feel it is going to happen and he will be focusing on doing similar things instead of focusing on himself.

And turnera it is not about honesty it is about courage and confidence, it is something expected for someone who lived her life blamed for everything she did until i came to a point when no one is blaming me i blame myself.
I know that you know it and you are helping me a lot and step by step.
My big weakness, it is very hard for me to take a decision to cut someone from my life and say no or it is enough. I know it is wrong and i changed a lot but still not able to do it even when more than 100% convinced that i should do it...

I am scared of this step and unsecured and at the same time i don't want to go back because i know it is going to kill me.

Unless i find myself forced to take the decision i am unable to take it and this happened to me in several important situations in my life


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## turnera

Well, obviously, there's no going back to him.

Not the way he is.

But you need to make sure that this journey is about YOU.

What are YOU learning? What have you learned about you, given some of the things you've told me? What does it say about how you deal with adversity? Note I'm not blaming you, but asking you to consider EVERYTHING and find a way to prepare yourself for better choices down the road, ok?

It is at this point in your life that you need to be 100% honest with yourself, warts and all. Or you'll never grow and improve and learn to love yourself for who you really are.


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## LVS

Thank you for your questions

In fact each day i am learning something new and i can say that i have learned in the past couple years as much as i learned in my whole life.
Some of the important things that i learned are:
-I learned self appreciation and self worthiness.
-I learned to stop saying i can't because i CAN.
-I learned that i should always find a way to deal with life problems and i don't need to change my believes and values when i can not change my situation because the most one i would be cheating on is myself. No matter how much the decision is going to be destructive to certain area of my life It will be less horrible than choosing to destroy values or believes.
-I learned how to set priorities in my life and respect those priorities no matter what.
-I learned that fantasizing and dreaming are only mind games to keep me from seeing the reality and dealing with each situation the way i suppose to deal. Dreams and fantasies are good because they give hope but only when realizing them could be possible. And, when my life become only fantasy and dreams then something should be done and it is time to let go; to allow myself to be on the ground when I am unable to clap my wings and fly...


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## turnera

Sounds like admirable steps. You're way ahead of me!


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## LVS

Thank you but i am still struggling in the last one even i know what is right and what is wrong in my new relationships.
I am doing the right things in the right way but with the old ones with people close to me the detachment is so hard and to let the dream die 
is the hardest so i am still on the fence even i know where i should be...


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## LVS

Little update:.
I spent good Christmas time with my kids but new year each of my daughters is going to spent it with her friends and my son with his dad so i told them i will see where i am going to spend new year.
Today my H called my D18 and said that my son is going to be with me on the new year. My daughter said that she doesn't know if i am going to be home. He said why where your mom is willing to go and how she is going to go and stay up late and she has work Saturday morning. well i know she is going to be with someone else. When he said that my daughter said i don't want to talk about it and my mom has right to go anywhere she wants...

I love spending my time with my kids but not on his way. The least thing he could do was asking me.
NO COMMUNICATION !!!! till when i don't know...
He is still using my kids i am tired of his way. 
Friday I have work until 10.00 pm. I have no plans after that and i might end up staying home alone. But even I know it is hard to say it but i am not going to do what he wants and get my son even if i stayed home...

I am mad and tired hmmmmmm and i don't want to feel guilty toward my son if i didn't get him but i don't feel comfortable if i did things his way....


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## turnera

The key here is consistency. And communication with your kids. Let them know what your schedule is so they feel safe and secure. But do not bend to your ex's will. This is one of the things you're going to have to 'teach' him - how YOU should be treated. If he goes outside the boundaries, he gets nothing.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> But do not bend to your ex's will. This is one of the things you're going to have to 'teach' him - how YOU should be treated. If he goes outside the boundaries, he gets nothing.


I wish there is a way to teach someone who is splitting me black to see me in better way or to treat me better, no matter how much he says that he wants to work it out he can't and as soon as he is going to lose hope of bringing me back he is going to turn back his OTHER true color.

Comparing him to my situation, you can see how hard for me to let go my dream of the family together for ever also it is hard for him to let go his dream to control me again. lol don't you see it this way too?



turnera said:


> And communication with your kids. Let them know what your schedule is so they feel safe and secure.


What schedule should i tell them about? can you clear it for me please?


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## turnera

I meant to fully communicate with your kids so they know what you're doing, when, etc. That way, there is no ambiguity around you. No way for your ex to weasel in and say you're doing a bad job, you're not telling them stuff on purpose, etc.

No, you'll never teach him anything, change him. But you CAN merely change what YOU do - then he has no choice but to adapt.


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## LVS

Best wishes for the new year 

Friday night i left work early and bought all what i like to eat and drink  and set my table to party by myself
My D18's party was cancelled and she ended up staying with me so i asked her to invite her boyfriend and had a good time all together 

She told her dad that she is going to spend the night in her friend (girl) house i asked her why you lied? she said because she doesn't want to be blamed for staying with her mom instead of staying with her dad.
Close to midnight someone knocked my door it was my son i was happy to see him. He said that his dad is in his car if i want to go and greet him for the new year or at least to stand up by the window a little bit. hmmmmmm i shook my head and was puzzled. hmmm is he missing me or doubting that i am with someone else? i don't know. Anyway i hugged my son and before he left i said no need to do that and if your dad needs anything from me he knows how to reach me....


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## LVS

Today i got a text message for the first time from my H WOW
He said "Happy new year. Still wait your answer about our meeting"

I didn't reply
I am still waiting my T to call me she was back to work today. I was expecting a call from her but maybe she was busy. Tomorrow i am going to call back her office and also i am going to see sister X to see what to do in case my T didn't call me...


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## turnera

LVS said:


> Best wishes for the new year
> 
> Friday night i left work early and bought all what i like to eat and drink  and set my table to party by myself
> My D18's party was cancelled and she ended up staying with me so i asked her to invite her boyfriend and had a good time all together
> 
> _She told her dad that she is going to spend the night in her friend (girl) house i asked her why you lied? she said because she doesn't want to be blamed for staying with her mom instead of staying with her dad._


LVS, what are you doing in terms of getting her therapy for this? She is learning to be JUST LIKE YOU. And I know you don't want that, when it comes to letting men dictate your life and how you tiptoe around them to not set them off. PLEASE get this addressed!

btw, I'm glad you had a good NYE. DD20 had a party and it was great fun (but lots of work for me!).


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## turnera

Good for you. Don't reply. He will keep baiting you and baiting you...until he realizes it will no longer work and he figures out he either (1) does what you ask and gets help or (2) gives up and moves on and leaves you in peace.

This is your boundary in action!


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## LVS

I couldn't update you before now
My T called me and she agreed to be the mediator  but she said she doesn't have time to see me before the meeting on 24th of January.

I told sister x about that she asked me if i like to meet with sister T who is a psychotherapist so i did meet with her today morning for two hours.

She was a super great listener i told her so many things and she was shaking her head most the time she liked the way i was defending myself in front of my kids and my h and she said you would be very successful if you become a therapist or a lawyer (i loved this compliment  )
when i finished talking she asked me if i see how God is working in my life i said yes God helped me a lot, He opened paths and closed others and his fingers are printed in so many pages of my life. 
She said true but also He sent you people to talk to you and show you the right way, can you see that? She also said your H is not going to change and by divorcing him you are helping him to work on his issues. God doesn't want you to be unhappy or suffering God doesn't want you also to be perfect God wants you to chose what you see right for YOU, and what is good for you it is going to be good for your kids.....

Isn't she wonderful??? 

She asked me to read the Bible(Luke chapter 3 to 12)

She also gave me an exercise to make me feel better and take out of my body the bad thoughts feelings and emotions.

This exercise is called AIT(advanced integrative therapy) this is the website Victoria Danzig, LCSW, Energy Psychology Therapist and Trainer
She asked me to try it in her office.

It is putting a hand over the part where i feel pain or hurt let's say the top of my head and i move the other hand over different spots of my body while keep saying " i feel guilty" or any other phrase and each time i say it i breath deeply.
This exercise was so good i am going to practice it everyday

And she gave me another exercise it is holding with one hand a finger from the other hand for a certain time the thumb is for Sadness the second for Fear the third for Anger the fourth for anxiety and the last finger for low self-esteem 
So if i feel sadness i hold the thumb softly with my other hand and close my eyes and try to feel the energy of sadness coming out of my body 

She said the emotions are energy and we can do this exercise to take this energy of bad emotions out of our body
She gave me another appointment on the 23rd (a day before meeting with my H) 
She said next time she is going to give me a different exercise to bring good emotions into my body 

Wow isn't this amazing ????


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## turnera

Very cool! All of it!


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## LVS

How awkward!!! I came back home today at the same time when my H was dropping off my D from school. I gave my her a hug and looked toward his car to say hi but he was checking something in his hands so i went home without saying anything. 

Later i got a text message from him, it says:

*"Sorry to bother u but after 6 months of darkness i saw the APHRODITE Goddess and i felt like someone who won the lottery. I don't know why."*


I didn't reply..


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## turnera

Let him feel that way. Maybe it will entice him to start working on himself.


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## LVS

He sent me a message today
*" I miss u a lot even if u don't u didn't, and u won't"*

It is an important time where i need to work better on my emotions to be able to admit reality and move on with my life, his messages are not helping me at all it is not that i am going to change my mind it is that they are making my path more painful


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## turnera

That is pure pity-me manipulation.

If you DO decide to respond, all you have to say is: "The only thing I'm interested in hearing from you is what you are learning in your weekly therapy sessions."


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## LVS

*If i had a rose for everything I thought of you , I'd walk through a garden forever.*
This is his message for today. I know those words i read something similar somewhere on the internet and liked them.
But words that are not coming from the heart do not reach my heart

I don't want to reply turnera, there is a deep anger inside me each time i remember one of the things that he did to me or he was saying about me... 
A lot of hurt and mistreatment hard to forget specially each time he acts like that he gives me flash back to the dark days and turned them fresh in my memory

Whether it is a wake up or a manipulation i don't feel i want to reply even i want to say what you mentioned but not now i will make sure to not forget saying that in our meeting on the 24th.


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## Affaircare

May I suggest either changing your cell phone number or blocking him? 

I know, I know: "He *NEEDS* to be able to contact you about the children...." No. He needs to leave you alone, and he will not do it. So please consider changing your cell phone or blocking him, and for emergencies, find someone who could be an intermediary and receive a message from him and forward it onto you. 

For example, when he sends a text about this kind of B.S. the intermediary should delete it and leave you in peace. When he sends an "urgent" email about not finding socks, the intermediary should say "You're an adult--find them yourself or take the child to Walmart, you don't need her!" And if a child is going to the emergency room, THEN the intermediary can contact you via phone or email and explain the emergency. 

If he tries to work around a changed phone number, blocking him on the cell phone, and/or an intermediary I would say time for a real restraining order. If you already HAVE a restraining order, file for contempt of a court order. We have an article on our site, LVS, "When to End the Consequences Stage." Now I realize you are not in that stage, but the idea of No Contact with your soon-to-be-ex is very similar. When you see the kind of behavior in that article, you might consider he is having a true turn around. UNTIL THEN HE IS JUST TRYING TO B.S. :bsflag: YOU AGAIN and pull you back into the old way of living again. 

Look at #20! 
*Loyal Spouse will hear questions like these:*

What do you want?
What hurts you about being with me?
How do you feel when I come to the house?
How do you feel after talking with me?
Do you feel like I constantly tell you how you should be?
Do I sound selfish?
Have I shown an interest in your reality, hopes, and dreams?
Are you experiencing trauma from the things I said and did for years?
Can you heal from this trauma?
Could you like a person who has been self-centered and abusive for a long time?


I do not hear him asking these kinds of questions AT ALL...do you? :scratchhead:


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## LVS

Affaircare said:


> .... We have an article on our site, LVS, "When to End the Consequences Stage." Now I realize you are not in that stage, but the idea of No Contact with your soon-to-be-ex is very similar. When you see the kind of behavior in that article, you might consider he is having a true turn around. UNTIL THEN HE IS JUST TRYING TO B.S. :bsflag: YOU AGAIN and pull you back into the old way of living again....


Thank you Affaircare for your post
If i want to express my mind i wouldn't be able to do it better than that.
YES this is exactly how i feel and this is what i expect to be said and done.
Just switch disloyal spouse with abusive spouse and more than 90% of what is mentioned is what it should be applicable

Yesterday he went to church stayed in a spot where he can see us all the time. After mass he sent me a text message: [B*God bless you and our children*[/B]

I can feel he is acting the same way he did before i moved out. Back then, he stopped yelling screaming and cursing.... showing everybody that he changed and no reason for me to leave him.
Now, very soon divorce will be final. Here he is again repeating the same actions in different way to show everybody that he is in a wake up period, that he is a totally different, a remorseful and regretful person...who doesn't want to lose his wife...
He might be, i don't know, but till this moment i can't feel that and if i can't feel it i can't believe it.

Affaircare, from your view point i know you are right. I am living a lot of pressure and stress and i need to do something to feel better, but till now i don't feel i need to get restraining order against him and if i changed my phone number i know he is going to get it from my kids. The best way if i was able to do is to leave to different state but we have kids together and this is not an option...

Don't you think is better to wait and see how the meeting with him and my therapist is going to be?


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## turnera

He's just on the 'nice' part of the abuse cycle. He'll get tired of getting no results from this 'version' of himself, and he'll move on to another part of the cycle; if I had to guess, it will be the 'nasty/mean' version, trying to convince you what a horrible persron you are and make you feel guilty again.

Remind me again why you're meeting with him and your therapist?


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## LVS

He might turn back his ugly face because this is a part of his personality 
Romantic text messages are not a part of it. He is using them trying to reach my heart 
Sadly my heart is frozen lol But still with what he is doing is making me feel guilty because he is not touching my heart with his loving words...

About the meeting
He asked me to meet with him for important subject that he can't discuss in a letter or text message or even the phone.
He said if i don't feel secure i can get a third person even if i want a police officer but it is really important to talk.

I asked sister X if she can be with us she said my T would be the best if she accepts to be the mediator

My T agreed but still he doesn't know where we are going to meet or who is the third party. All what i wrote to him was the date and the time of the meeting.


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## LVS

He just sent me a text message saying:
*I believe anyone has a precious and very beautiful gem like the one i had will be so dumb or so crazy to lose it or give it away to someone else.*

Two minutes later he sent another one
*And I am none of those sure*

As Affaircare described it this *BS* should stop i am starting to lose my patience. Those words make me feel sick. 
Maybe by not saying or doing anything he is thinking that i am enjoying them.

He said it by his own words LIKE THE ONE I HAD "not i have" so he knows he lost it but he doesn't want to admit it.

Should i start to feel scared?? Because when i moved out maybe it wasn't a lost for him he was still having hope but with divorce close to be final he is feeling i will be legally free to be with someone else.


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## turnera

I would definitely be having extra security measures, though he hasn't turned out to be as violent as I expected. Can you change the locks on your door? If your kids have a key, he may have gotten a copy.



LVS said:


> He might turn back his ugly face because this is a part of his personality
> Romantic text messages are not a part of it.


He never HAD to use them before. Now he's pulling out all the stops to reach you. Expect more.

Can you contact his family and ask them to help him move on?



> Sadly my heart is frozen lol But still with what he is doing is making me feel guilty because he is not touching my heart with his loving words...


You have nothing to feel guilty about. If he wanted to be a good husband, he would have done so 20 years ago. You gave him PLENTY of chances; he just never respected you enough to care. His loss. Literally.


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## LVS

Today is our meeting with the therapist.

I was so sick, i couldn't meet yesterday with sister T (the psychotherapist) but i spoke with her on the phone
She asked me if i have a strong feeling that i want to go back to him i said sometimes i do and most what scares me is my feeling that something bad is going to happen and bring me back to him when i suppose not to do that.
She said do you feel like if you are under curse? I said i don't know about that but this is how i feel and it is a strong feeling that getting stronger day by day.

She said this is an energy power coming from your husband. He might be wishing and praying that something bad happens to you or any one of your family to bring you together.

She said she is going to pray for me to help me push this energy away and she is going to pray during the meeting time.

I told her i am sick and i might not be able to go and i may have to reschedule our meeting
She said no you are going to be fine and go to the meeting.

WOW this is impressing. I am doing better today and i am emotionally and mentally ready for this meeting.

Wish me luck!
Will be back to you after the meeting


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## turnera

LVS, you can do this. Bring someone else with you, if you can. You're stronger than you think. Above all, do not sign anything and do not agree to anything! "I need time to think" is all you have to say.


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## LVS

I am back tired so tired it was more exhausting than i expected emotionally mentally and even physically because of the cold and stress my body is weak

Anyway it's like i read your mind turnera i said I NEED TIME TO THINK just because i was tired and because he was standing by my car talking and talking and talking to make me believe he changed...

Before i tell you what happened i forgot to mention that he fought with his deaf sister who also is as worse as he is with her mood swings

He called my D18 and told her that he is packing and he is going to leave to unknown place but he is not staying in his mom's house and he ASKED HER TO TELL ME that my S12 is going to stay with me because he can't have him anymore.

This happened last Tuesday

Wednesday he packed my S12 things and sent them to my apt and he said he is looking for another apt with a roommate....


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## turnera

Things sound promising. You did great!

Be sure to give S12 lots of time and attention, ok?


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## LVS

I had little talk with my T first and she said that she felt relaxed to see the way I am talking in a really structured and organized mind.

First he looked at the T and said i just need to know why i am here?

I felt my T puzzled from his question I said you have a very important subject to say and i can have a third party anyone i want so i found the best one who knows better about our situation is my T 

He looked back at her and said but there are things personal i don't want to discuss in front of you it is not a patient session

I said too late to say that, you should say that three days ago when you knew that the meeting is going to be with her.

He said true ok but i can not express myself like my wife does in English i prefer to talk in our language I have never talked to my wife in English

I also said i can ask if my T agree i will translate what you can not say in English

He started the conversation for around 10 min blablabla in our language and i was translating everything but than i said you are wasting time we don't have much time and everything you said you can say it in English then he started talking in English

The T was doing good by letting me answer his questions. She didn't have to take a side she was very logical with her answers and she told him in her way that getting back together for kids is not going to help them also she suggested to find a T to our son 
He disagreed and said our son doesn't need a T he needs a family a whole family together to feel secured
She said even now you can communicate to give your kids what they need and they will feel secure...
I said what is affecting our son and our kids is because you are putting them in between I know the situation is so hard but we can make it less hard by being responsible our kids are not our friends they are our responsibility but you keep hurting them by putting them in between and saying bad things about me in front of them.

He said it is because you are blocking all my ways to contact you and you are not replying for my texts or letters
I said this is not true I don't reply when you talk about love and emotions when you talk about our kids I always reply...

Then he started talking about us and the way to get back together because i am his soul and he can't live without me
He pointed to a book i was holding it and said we are from different culture and people can't live by following what books say....
The book I was holding was a spiritual book so I showed it to him and my T and I said I am not only following what the culture here or the books say I am following for most what my church and my Bible say and I don't regret anything I did until now and I am not willing to go back to the life I was living with you I am not going back to death...
Here I said you stopped seeing your T i wonder why? 
He said I am seeing a T since 4 months i was waiting since a year for my company to approve it.

I said so you are going to a T through your company?
He said yes but don't worry I told the T everything and I said that we always had problems in our marriage but being laid of work affected me and made me lose my marriage. (That means he is going to think well about what he is going to say to this T so it won't affect his case with his company since he is laid off work because an injury and he is saying that this fact affected his life at home and was the reason to destroy his marriage, BS)

The T said you are following therapy and she is doing the same and this is good for both of you even if you are not together. Your son still needs to see a T too in the mean time to help him to get through this in better way 
He said he needs to go back to me I am his soul and he can't raise my son the right way if I am not under the same house with him....

Time was over the T asked me if i need to add anything i said i can't give any promises i am working on myself and he is working on himself right now i am not ready to go back i don't know in the future what will happen it could take a month it could take a year but i can't give any promise 
He said no. What is keeping me going on and getting help and working on myself is the hope to go back to you i need a chance to prove to you that i changed. Can i talk to you outside i said i can't talk anymore i need to go i am not feeling good yet...


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## LVS

Sorry soo long i divided it in two posts 

We walked outside the clinic and we shared the elevator he was saying that it is unfair to not give him a chance to show me how much he got improved he said he was defending me in front of his family and told them that he was mistreating me all the time he made my D23 talk back to me when she was mad at me and didn't want to. 
I said all what you did is saying that I left you for someone else and I am very bad person he said every husband in my place will do the same and I am a very jealous person and I will always be.
I said I appreciate all the nice things you did and I will do the same if you need me it doesn't mean we should go back together. 
He said that he was living hell with his family during these six months and the reason he got in fight with his sister was because his sister said that it's because of me he became this monster and he blew up to defend me...

He asked me and was like begging me to agree so he can be a roommate in my apt he just want to be around the kids like that with time also maybe I will see that he changed from the way he is dealing with our kids 
I said I don't have a room in my house and I don't need to see anything
He said it doesn't matter I sleep on the couch we can find bigger apt and I won't bother you
I said how you are asking to live with your divorced wife 
He said I am going to tell everyone that we are just roommates just you can live your free life even if you have to be with someone else I will admit that I will help you with the expenses and with so many things around the house if you do so you save me from the hell that I am living I said you can get an apt and live in it he said he can't afford it he has so many bills to pay.......................................

I SAID I NEED TIME TO THINK I HAVE NO ANSWER NOW....


----------



## turnera

Please reread your last post. I saw you slipping into saying YES one sentence at a time!

NO MORE CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM.

Ok? 

NONE. Tell him that you will RECONSIDER your arrangements in SIX MONTHS. 

Tell him that if you truly love each other, you will WAIT those six months for the healing and therapy to do what it needs.

By then, you will be strong enough (hopefully) to tell him to go away if he tries this crap again.

When I broke up with my abusive fiance, he fell apart. He came to my work every single day for months. He told me he had to drop out of college, he was so distraught over losing me. He couldn't stop crying, he couldn't eat, blahblahblah...

Yet, ALL THE WHILE we were dating, 3 years, he was cheating on me the whole time, manipulating me, ignoring me, and having the time of his life.

Suddenly, when I finally said no, he fell apart, while I endured 3 years of hell?

You know what?

Too bad.

THAT is where you need to be, LVS. TOO BAD.


----------



## LVS

You can picture what kind of situation i am in right now...

And he wants to be a roommate!!!!!!!

I can't see this is going to work in any way i feel a lot of pressure over my chest for just thinking of it.

Hard to say no to a destroyed person to someone who is begging for mercy and forgiveness...

Also i am picturing my kids reaction when there dad is going to live with a roommate and their mother didn't let him in her house.

I know i should not worry about that and he needs to solve his problems and he is the one who led himself to this situation. I know all that but i feel bad i feel sad and i feel guilt because i don't want him in my house in anyway.


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## turnera

Then you need more of a support system. You need people telling you that you are worth MORE than that, that your 'role' in this world is NOT to be everyone else's Giver.

He hasn't changed. He is still all about how miserable HE is.

Did he even mention worrying about how YOU have felt all these years? 

When he stops talking about HIMSELF, when he starts saying 'you're right, I don't have any right to ask you anything, I"m just going to go away and let you have your life, because you deserve it.

And THEN, at THAT point, you should say, 'let's give it six months apart and then look at things again then.'

NEVER until then. Ok?


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## turnera

Now look at THIS last post. 

It is ALL about how HE feels, how the KIDS feel, and your guilt.

Is that a valid reason to take an abuser back?

Remember when we were telling you that it would take him a year or two before he will 'get it' and that is only after intensive therapy on his part. He's not there yet. So letting him in would only put YOU right back under his thumb and CONVINCE him that he can do whatever he wants because you are TOO WEAK to protect yourself.


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## WhereAmI

He's trying to manipulate you by making you feel guilty. He knows what he's doing and he hasn't changed. Stick to your boundaries! They don't change because of how he feels, they have nothing to do with him, they are for YOU.


----------



## LVS

Thank you WherAmI for your input and you are both right about that i agree with you but the problem is my emotions still away still want to keep a dream

When i spoke to the Therapist before meeting with him she asked me how do i know that he didn't change?
i responded like you said turnera;

When he comes to me to tell me i wish you the best i don't deserve you i don't deserve that you give me another chance go live your life be happy you will be better without me and so on.... Then i know he is on the right way then i know there is a hope and then i can think about giving him another chance

And the T agreed
turnera i know what is right and i can feel it but the decision is hard when i think about my kids and my son who is in my country i know in their mind it is a matter of time and we will go back together but in my mind i am convinced it is over i should not go back to him i don't want to suffer anymore but it hurts me to think of them

Why to chose what is right for me i need to make my kids suffer and know that my decision is the cause??!!!


----------



## turnera

If you are questioning, then you cannot make a good decision to take him back. Do you see that?


----------



## LVS

Hmmmmm I am living a nightmare is not going to end and his true color starting back to reveal...

Since Monday after the meeting everyday he was trying to call me i wasn't answering but everyday he was leaving a voice message to check on me and ask me to answer his calls

Today he called and also i didn't answer he left a voice message he was serious and said just to call him back he has something really important and he can't talk about it by text message

I called him he said he has two parts to talk about and we need to meet for that first part he has right to defend himself after 6 months of punishment and second we need to talk about filing for tax

I said about the tax we can meet at the office and we ask them what is better for both of us file jointly or individually so it is solved about the other subject i don't need to hear anything 
He said you prosecuted and convicted me without hearing my defense even a criminal has a chance to defend himself
I said i have heard enough no more time to hear anything from my side and you already said what you need to say when we went to the T 
He said still i didn't say anything 
I said i don't need to hear anything anymore and i need to get of the phone i have so many things to do
But he kept talking and talking not listening and he was back talking about my selfishness and i am destroying the family by listening to what the books and the liberals say and that he thought these 6 months were enough time for me to rethink about our life and see something white not everything black 
I said this time was a peace and relaxing time for me and if there were anything white in our relationship please let me know
He said you were living in peace because i was setting the ground for you to be in peace but what you are choosing to do now is not a wise decision and staying stubborn and not change your mind will lead you to end up alone for the rest of your life if something happened to you no one will take care of you
and as Christian you are doing everything against Christ no love no forgiveness hatred....

I said we don't have anything to talk about it anymore we need to hang up and here something weird happened my phone turned off by itself wow it never happened before even my phone was tired of his voice lol

Later i sent him text message to tell him that my phone turned off by itself and i told him that therapy is going to help him but not the one through his work company

He called back and left voice message his tone was different. He said that there is no therapy is going to be effective with him anymore after what is going to happen even my son no therapy is going to help him after what i am going to do to him and to my other kids

I know i shouldn't discuss anything with him instead when he said "first part he has right to defend himself after 6 months of punishment and second we need to talk about filing for tax"
My response should be "ok i will think about it and hang up"

Now with all what has being said what do you think


----------



## turnera

He has NOT CHANGED one bit. All he intended to do was wait you out; give you six months so he could say he 'did his part' and then planned to go back to his belittlement and berating of you.

And he has.

Life with him would be EXACTLY like it was before.

No, actually, it would be WORSE, because he would NEVER forgive you, and NEVER let you live this down. He would treat you like crap and tell you that you DESERVE it and you'd better like it. 

LVS, he is an ABUSER.

It is all he knows. 

He will never change.

You deserve a life without him.

He can 'guilt' you til he's blue in the face, it won't make him a better person worth marrying.

_PLEASE STOP ANSWERING HIM._


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## LVS

turnera he won.t leave me in peace

He called me on my way to work and left a voicemessage 
He said with a straight voice this is my last message to you we need to meet and talk not farther than Sunday he has things to talk about

If he didn.t hear anything from my side he said don.t be surprised if you saw me coming to your apt and say what i need to say in front of our kids...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

LVS, he has NO RIGHT to come in your apartment.

You have NO OBLIGATION to answer the phone when he calls; YOU have the kids now, there is NO REASON to talk to him.

He is back in his bullying phase. You KNOW that this is his abuse of you, and you LEFT him because of that bullying. 

What makes you think you need to continue to accept it?

Where is your support group? What about your daughters? Friends? You need to unplug your phone, turn off your cell phone, and double lock your door, and just turn up your tv real loud for the whole night. 

BE STRONG!


----------



## Confused-Wife

Tell him that you will only talk to him through a mediator, not directly. Turnera has very good advice here. I am happy that turnera has been here to support you through this whole process.

LVS, stay strong. You are almost through the hardest part. Don't let the last six months be a waste. If you do, you'll have to start all over again when you realize that he hasn't changed one bit.


----------



## Uptown

LVS, I agree with Turnera. It is counter-productive to try to reason with him or explain anything. Like a typical BPDer, he is interested only in creating drama, not solutions. Moreover, any agreement or semblance of an understanding you reach with him today -- in the very unlikely event that should ever occur -- is gone tomorrow when his mood changes. So, yes, when you absolutely must talk to him when exchanging your son, just respond vaguely with "I'll have to think about it" and "I'll get back to you if I change my mind." Keep all discussions with him as boring as possible -- make him think he's watching the paint peel on the wall. Absolutely boring -- the opposite of drama. And go NC to the extent possible. You are still doing exceptionally well, you know!


----------



## LVS

It was around church time when HE CALLED MY S12 yesterday and asked him to TELL ME that he is in his car waiting for me

I said i am taking a nap until it is the time to go to church.
He tried to block my way and talk to me while getting in my car and he said in front of my S12 that it is not up to me i have to give him 15 min to say what he needs to say
I said you can't make me, neighbors were around so he couldn't say more, but he said he is going to wait for me until i come back.

And that's what he did. I came back with my D18 and my S12, he was waiting by the door.

With a bad smile he said no run away for you I am going to wait all the night here. I said you can't make me talk to you you need to request it and wait for me until i can be ready to meet with you 
He said no you have to give me these 15 min now it is a matter of life and death
I asked my kids to go back to the car and i left to sister T (the psychotherapist) I called her on my way and told her what happened and she said she can come with me so I dropped off my kids and called him to come to my car and we had the conversation.

He insisted to have the conversation in our language which i didn't want because i know what he was going to say
He brought up everything that hurt me and affected our life in one time.

He said so many things:

-You are stubborn and forgot about all the good things i did to you during the 28 years of marriage
-You decided for whatever reason probably the midlife crisis to destroy our partnership and maybe you are dreaming to find your charm prince like the liberals and the wrong books taught you 
*SO* we are going to file for taxes separately and I am going to allow you to put my S12 under your name since he is the one who get more from taxes (I was listening and didn't comment)

- You were living in peace and i am the one who set the ground for that because i am paying your health and car insurance and i am the one who is helping you when you need without you knowing that 
I said i appreciate what you did 
He said you appreciate nothing.... and he continued;

- I don't believe about the civil divorce I believe about the church annulment and this is not going to happen unless there is cheating in the marriage and I am willing to give church the proof that I cheated on you when it is time i am going to sign a paper that I did the affair even I didn't but to help you get the annulment...
I said that's not true and there are other reasons to get the annulment anyway i will think about that when it is time..

- You can get the civil divorce but you have no right to bring any other man to your apartment and if you did i am going to take your kids
I said it's not what i am looking for that now but anyway you have lack of information about California's law..

- I am going to sell my house in our country so whatever you have there you need to tell your S27 to take it out of the house before i got there because all your personal things are going to be destroyed as well as all our wedding pictures and all our pics together...
I said ok

-Of course when I lose the house I won't be able to go to our city anymore this is what you are doing to me and you won't be able to go there 
You are going to lose your friends because you won't be having a place to stay there anymore.
I said ok 

- You are an ungrateful person and I am not surprised this is the family you came from and this is the result of the failure of your father to raise you the way you suppose to be raised and look at you your brother is divorced your other brothers are not happy in marriage and you are breaking your marriage
I said same way here this is how you were trying to raise your kids you and my dad from the same boat  

- All I need to do is tell everybody the truth I am going to say the truth in front of your kids and your parents let everybody know who you are and what you did (he is pointing to what happened in the past with his father
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/18828-guilty-years.html )
I said you can do that if you want to show everybody what kind of father you hadand what he did to you and to me... Go ahead and tell them the truth...

- I gave you six months to relax and i set the ground for you to live in peace now it is enough time away and you still don't want to get back to me so you have two choices or take the full responsibility for the kids or give me the full responsibility and i can take care very well of them and i know you can't afford that by yourself
I said did you really give me 6 months? he said i gave you the peace
I said yes i got the peace from God and also for not being belittled and mistreated cursed blamed being yelled at yes i got the peace

- If you decided to take care of them i am not going to support you in anyway because when the divorce is over i am going to leave the state i already informed my family and i am not going to stay in the same city where you live
So my family is going to lose me and my kids are going to lose me because of you
I said I am not the one who made them lose you you are the one who is going to leave your responsibilities this is your choice
I can tell you i am ready to leave the state with my kids and you stay close to your family ( I know he is doing that to collect more pity to him and more hatred to me)

He took more than 15 min he was talking and talking and talking in his poisoned way I was trying to be cool and always ask him to say the main things he needs to talk about and not go in details to guilt me or blame me or we stop the conversation but he didn't stop than i asked sister T if she has more time to stay and she said not really it is way passed 15 min.... 
He said if i was not talking the conversation wouldn't take this long 
I smiled and said how much time do you still need he said 5 min
He was talking and saying all mean and hurtful words i asked him how he changed 
*He said i was willing to but you didn't allow me* (lol)
When he finished what he needed to say he left...


----------



## turnera

Wow. You should print that out and FRAME it on your wall.

Whenever you waver and feel guilty for him, just read that again and pat yourself on the back for being brave enough to get away from such a hateful, spiteful, self-centered man.

Yuck.

Good for you. You did great!

I wonder what he thought was going to happen. I wonder if he thought that that speech would make you swoon for him and beg him to take you back? What an idiot.


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## LVS

He is not going to surrender yet from what he said i understand that 
For him civil divorce is not ending our marriage that is why also he was saying that i can't be with another man so he is trying to close a way for me to be involved with someone else he is still hoping and with that he is not going to leave me alone because in our religion and country i am still his wife until the annulment from our church is done.

Yes turnera he is thinking by saying so and putting the fear in my mind he will make me stop and go back to him thinking that i didn't think about all what he said. Nice try MIND GAMES ???? 

For him the liberals and the wrong books that i am following are blurring my vision so he is trying to open my eyes to see what i am going to lose. 

He will never admit that i can be smart enough to have my own opinion about things, that i can be independent, that i can live without his support, that i am ready to challenge life itself and not go back to be under his mercy!!!

Sadly turnera yes he is taking away what is blurring my vision to see more clearly how i am still refusing to let go a dream that will never come true.

Sadly he showed all kind of hatred under the name of love and he took all my love actions as hatred actions because they are not clear to him. He said i am full of hate to him i have no mercy for his health condition i have no care or love to him.
In fact he means a lot to me. I wish i can continue my life with him but it is just a wish.
I am not sure if i am going to get married again but i am sure i will never go back to him because he is not going to change and i am not going to live the same nightmare again.

Sadly i am moving on the countdown time started. 15 days left and the divorce should be final.

THE END OF THE TUNNEL IS SO CLOSE....


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## LVS

Uptown said:


> LVS, I agree with Turnera. It is counter-productive to try to reason with him or explain anything. Like a typical BPDer, he is interested only in creating drama, not solutions. Moreover, any agreement or semblance of an understanding you reach with him today -- in the very unlikely event that should ever occur -- is gone tomorrow when his mood changes. So, yes, when you absolutely must talk to him when exchanging your son, just respond vaguely with *"I'll have to think about it" and "I'll get back to you if I change my mind." * Keep all discussions with him as boring as possible -- make him think he's watching the paint peel on the wall. Absolutely boring -- the opposite of drama. And go NC to the extent possible. You are still doing exceptionally well, you know!


Uptown don't you think if i say that i may give him more hope. Anything i say if i am not firm he may take it as a weak sign or as if i am going to rethink the situation.
In the other hand my kids would blame me for that they will think i am playing games on him to make him keep running after me or make him keep suffering. They may think that i don't know what i want and they will misjudge my decisions.


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## turnera

Yeah, I wouldn't say "I'll think about it" if you ever have to speak to him again before the divorce. Just say 'I have nothing to say to you' and move away from him.

That said, he KNOWS the divorce is coming up, right? So, as an abusive person, you can expect him to ratchet up the pressure, BIG time!

PLEASE be careful these next two weeks. Check in with us so we know you're ok. Tell your kids, family, church, and neighbors what you know about abusive men, and that you are a little concerned about what he might do in the next two weeks. Let them help you stay on guard. I've heard of such men getting hold of their wives and beating them into submission to retract the divorce decree. Or stealing the kids to force you to. Please be careful.


----------



## LVS

Soooo quiet no text messages no letters no phone calls even with my kids he is not saying anything about us

WHAT'S HIS NEXT PLAN ??

I don't know if i should start to fear him because for him he lost a battle he didn't lose the war.
He is still creating more hope by waiting the annulment and the annulment is going to take around 18 months.
So for our church i am still his wife.


----------



## turnera

Did you inform everyone like I suggested? You might want to tell your work again that an important date is coming up and he may try something, to not let him in.


----------



## LVS

UPDATE

*"Call me urgently tonight to talk about tax return please" *

My reply:
"Sorry the things you said to me in our last meeting and slapping the car door without letting me finish what i was saying made me see you not showing any kind of respect
So i don't feel comfortable to talk with you on the phone 
You can send me a text message or a letter explaining what you need to talk about and i will reply"

He sent another text message
*"If u are interested to make more money u have to forget your continuous hate for me for now and call me to explain u why"*

I DIDN'T CALL OR REPLY

An hour later he sent:
*"I'm still waiting forget your feelings now it's business"*

After 15 min he sent:
*"You know? to not embarrass u we can talk through D18 because i'm too not excited to hear your voice. waiting for the call"*


----------



## LVS

turnera said:


> Did you inform everyone like I suggested? You might want to tell your work again that an important date is coming up and he may try something, to not let him in.


I didn't yet turnera i still don't feel scared. Should I? He wasn't violent before!!! But i will talk to my neighbors..


----------



## turnera

It's crazy how he thinks that, just by talking to you, he can change your mind. But I guess that worked in the past, didn't it?

He's having to go through a massive learning curve now, and that's never comfortable.

Hang in there, you're doing great!


----------



## LVS

Yes turnera all his ways worked in the past lol

Anyway he did it my way  he told me what he needed without me calling him or answering his phones 
it is funny the way he did it though he started by talking in a rude and rough way he was very mean and was yelling in his voice messages saying that he doesn't care about hearing my voice and he asked me to stop my hate to him...blablabla 
I was not answering or replying and his voice started to change

He said i don't have much time he took appointment today at evening with the office to work on the taxes and if i need to make more money i need to call him to tell him how much are my wages and compensations and he is going to tell me what is the best way to file for taxes and what should i do (i knew it wasn't about me he only care about himself)

I sent him text and told him Thank you I appreciate your concerns but i have people helping me with that.( i don't have anybody  but i know if he helped me with a little thing he will keep saying it for ever that he did something good for me)

He said those people who are helping you destroyed your life and they are going to destroy you. We need to file jointly for taxes if you don't agree you will destroy me more than you ever did

The funny thing when we had the conversation on Sunday he said that i need to file for taxes separately and now he changed his mind

I sent another text message and i agreed to do joint taxes but i asked him to postpone the appointment to my day off so i can be there too 

He agreed and his tone in his voice message changed to become more nice and soft ...


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## turnera

Make sure you take someone with you.


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## LVS

The meeting is tomorrow
Since i read your post and i am thinking about it you are right and i don't want to be alone but i don't know anyone who can be with me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Take your children, if no one else is available. He will be planning to use this to berate you again.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> Take your children, if no one else is available. He will be planning to use this to berate you again.


It was great idea thank you turnera.
I took my D18 with me. Everything went good he was extremely nice and i know why. It is because he needs me. If i filed separate taxes he was going to get only the quarter of what he is going to get now.

It hurts yes because he wouldn't ask to do joint taxes if this wasn't going to benefit him more 
I could be mean and ask more than the half of the sum we are going to get as he would do if he was in my place lol i don't need that i don't care about money my loss is much more. 

Anyway i should be more real because what i lost i never had hehh


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## turnera

Great job!


----------



## LVS

Sooo nice sooo soft sooo quiet sooo loving sooo caring voice hmmm i didn't believe it is him talking to me

He left me a voice message asking me to call him back and find a time to meet together just me and him without anybody interrupting our meeting he wants to say things to me he said *you will be happy i promise*

I didn't reply. 
Few hours later he called back and left me another voice message 

He said with the same tender tone "Sorry if i am insisting to talk to you but yes i am going to insist more *i won't leave you before getting a reply and accepting my request *please give me this chance without anyone else between us just me and you in private talk between a husband and wife i don't need to feel in court and someone is judging me i just want to be with you and only you please accept my request and as i said you will be happy.


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## turnera

Do you realize you're getting sucked back into HIS life?

Calling, calling, calling, texting, texting, confronting at your car, confronting at your house...and you are allowing it.

There is NOTHING he has to say that can't be written in a letter. 

All he cares about is tricking you - through guilt, logic, kids, whatever it takes - into accepting him back into your life.

And it's working, isn't it? You give a little, he takes more. You accept that, he takes even MORE.

SHUT HIM OUT, LVS. 

I KNOW you don't want what he has to offer. He has NOT CHANGED. He has nothing to offer except the life you ran from.

STOP REPLYING TO HIM.


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## LVS

I know he has nothing to offer
I know also he is suffering (i can't forget that this is the valentine's time and i know he forgot about how many special occasions i couldn't enjoy while he was mistreating me)
I know he is sincere when he says he wants to change and he wants to make up for me; but words stay words even if he meant what he said he is not doing the hard work that suppose to be done to help himself, SADLY he will never change

To be honest i had the thought flashing in my mind about going back to him but also i had so many thoughts pushing me away

I didn't reply turnera and i won't but if i do it is going to be just to tell him to limit his contact with me to be only about the kids

How i feel now? In extreme sadness. I just want to cry!!!!


----------



## Shianne

I just got told to fix me and we would be fine... but I am at the 13 yr mark...


----------



## LVS

Shianne I guess 13 years are more then enough to suffer... Take care of yourself...


----------



## LVS

He called back also i didn't answer 
He left a voice message. This time his tone changed.

With a disappointed voice he said:* "I am calling to say good night and to ask you to consider me as an animal not a human being an animal who is injured and suffering. Would you care for this animal or not?! 
Just treat me like this animal and think about my request, use your conscience, and think about meeting together to talk".*


----------



## Shianne

Your tale is so much harder than mine and you have endured so much.

I am thinking that I really don't have it so bad, there is far worse and I might be wise to shut up, stop making mountains out of my mole hills nd really buckle down to making this work... I do love him and he loves me and we have 3 kids.

I am so proud of you getting through such a horribly difficult pile of decades! You are so strong! I was full of self pity and now I know I am actually very lucky. Our experiences are similar enough to make me so proud of your strength and also ashamed of my own weakness.


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## turnera

LVS, it's very good that you are now SEEING his mood shifts, as he switches from one tactic to another. Stay strong. And remember, if he wants you badly enough, he will do the one thing you asked of him - to go to therapy and get better. 

And, in THAT, you will be helping him.


----------



## LVS

Shianne i use to think like you that my story doesn't worth and i am making something out of nothing and i should work better on my marriage and should handle more not knowing about the cycle of abuse i was thinking that something wrong with me and my H is nice why can't i do something to keep him nice always why i am triggering his anger..... 

Please listen to what people telling you especially turnera and i wish you the best


----------



## LVS

Back to my story
He is still calling me everyday and leaving voice messages yesterday he said 
*Unfortunately you are seeing me less than an animal please let me know when i will be for you on the level of animal and you agree to meet with me and listen to what i am going to tell you and believe me you are not going to be unhappy*

Today he said
*You keep ignoring i was expecting to hear something from you today but you seem not having any mercy anymore
Today we have a family occasion and all the family are going to meet in my brother's house but i am not going and as i told you before i am not involved in the family's events anymore i don't know if you want to change that and let me feel back alive it is up to you*

I am feeling sad and i am feeling self blame and guilt i know the way he is acting is to make me feel like that so i go back to him but i can't help it i am feeling this way and more sad because i can't go back to him.
I am scared to let my guard down i don't want to go back but a voice inside me still pushing me to go back. I know i will be unhappy if i did but the way i feel makes me now unhappy too


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## Shianne

Well you are inspiring me with your strength!! Stay strong! He sure does know the buttons doesn't he? Geez... 
Wouldn't it have been nice if they could put all that energy they put into learning our guilt buttons and instead learned how to push the love buttons. 
You seem a lot like me and in that I am sure you put so much effort into your every day knowing all the things that made him happy and doing every one in hopes of just one more good day.
Stay strong! I will try to find some strength! 

Don't let your guard down. His attacks are good but that helps us see what they really are, attacks.


----------



## Affaircare

LVS said:


> ...He is still calling me everyday and leaving voice messages yesterday he said
> _Unfortunately you are seeing me less than an animal please let me know when i will be for you on the level of animal and you agree to meet with me and listen to what i am going to tell you and believe me you are not going to be unhappy_


LVS, what he is doing is trying to manipulate your feelings so he can control you again. It's sort of similar to the way a person will "babble" when they are in the fog of an affair, and here is a translation of what his babble means:

"Unfortunately you are not doing what I want when I want it, so I am going to try to use a harmless and innocent bunny or kitten to play on your sympathies and then guilt you into caring about the harmless animal. I know you have said not to contact you, and I do not care about what you want or need. I want what I want, and I want it now. I know I have hurt you for decades and I don't care about the hurt you suffered at my hand for years--I am unhappy NOW and I want you to obey me NOW. You are here to serve me and not the other way around."

When he is truly sorrow for what he has done, here's what it will sound like: 

*"I have learned a lot recently and I realize now that I have hurt you tremendously over the years. I know you have asked me to stop contacting you, and although that hurts me and makes me feel sad and sorry for what I've done, I will honor your wishes and give you the peace I didn't give you before. When you are ready to contact me, that is your decision and I'll won't pressure you. I will be continuing my counseling so I can be a better man and I do hope one day you can see that side of me. I can understand how you would not trust me and I'll give you the freedom to go at whatever pace you feel is necessary for your safety."*

Is that what you hear? *No!!!*! What you hear is more pressure to do it HIS way in HIS timing to meet HIS needs. He does not even once address what his actions are doing to you or his guilt or even what he did in the past! Please re-read our article about "When it's time to End the Consequences Stage" and you'll be reminded what it's like when they really do change. 

Personally I would say change your phone number and do not give it to the children so that you can FINALLY get some peace away from this abusive man!!




> Today he said
> _You keep ignoring i was expecting to hear something from you today but you seem not having any mercy anymore
> Today we have a family occasion and all the family are going to meet in my brother's house but i am not going and as i told you before i am not involved in the family's events anymore i don't know if you want to change that and let me feel back alive it is up to you_


Babble translation: 
"You keep NOT doing what I have TOLD you to do! I am expecting you to obey and stop hurting me. I don't care what harm it does to you! Since bunnies and kittens won't manipulate you into doing what *I* want you to do...I'm not going to try to force you to do things my way by using something I know you care about: family. I am going to use my own family members--people whom you care about--so I can get WHAT I WANT FROM YOU!! I demand that you do what I want!!!!"

If he has a family event, he is free to go and explain to his family that his wife is not there BECAUSE HE ABUSED HER SO SEVERELY SHE HAD TO FLEE. He is completely free to act for his own good and learn about the ways he abused you: emotionally, mentally and spiritually ... and confess TO HIS FAMILY that it is not you or your "fault" but rather his controlling, narcissistic ways that drove you away. He is free to feel alive any day he chooses to, while also treating you as if you are your own entirely free, mature adult self and treat you with respect! Instead he chooses to "not be alive" and blames you. He manipulates and controls you, and when you say "no" he blames you! He disrespects you and blames you! 

Seriously LVS. It has become dangerous enough now that a restraining order/protective order may be needed. When the divorce is filed part of the papers say that he is required to let you live in peace, and he is breaking that part of the court order! So either tell the judge or file for contempt or if you have to--get a protective order that REQUIRES him to stop contacting you!!!




> I am feeling sad and i am feeling self blame and guilt i know the way he is acting is to make me feel like that so i go back to him *but i can't help it* i am feeling this way and more sad because i can't go back to him.
> I am scared to let my guard down i don't want to go back but a voice inside me still pushing me to go back. I know i will be unhappy if i did but the way i feel makes me now unhappy too


LVS--"I can't help it" ? Really? Or do you mean that you choose NOT to help it? You may not want to feel guilty but you have options to block him from all this contact and you choose not to follow those options. Now we've watched you blossom like a flower that's finally getting the sunlight--I strongly encourage you to reconsider what you're saying. You CAN help it!! Get in a support group of other ladies' whose husbands were abusive, and pretty soon you'll see that they all pull these tricks. Go to your counselor when he does tricks like this--she sounds like she has her head on her shoulders. Get a restraining order. Change your phone number. Take the Voice Mail option off your phone (or turn it off) so he can not leave you those kinds of messages. BLOCK HIM!! 

LVS, you CAN do this--and I suspect you know it would be best for you. Right now you just don't "want" to. Rather than saying, "I can't help it"...find out why you would not love yourself enough to keep yourself safe from the manipulations and hurt of a man like this. You are a wonderful, loving, beautiful woman and you do deserve to be treated as a mature, respected individual. 

Soooooo...what are you going to do, LVS? Are you doing to find a support group? Go to your counselor? Talk to the judge? Get a restraining order? Block him? Remove VM from your phone? What are you going to do?


----------



## turnera

*!!*



LVS said:


> *Unfortunately you are seeing me less than an animal please let me know when i will be for you on the level of animal and you agree to meet with me and listen to what i am going to tell you and believe me you are not going to be unhappy*


_Cycle: Pity me._


> Today he said
> *You keep ignoring i was expecting to hear something from you today but you seem not having any mercy anymore*
> *Today we have a family occasion and all the family are going to meet in my brother's house but i am not going and as i told you before i am not involved in the family's events anymore i don't know if you want to change that and let me feel back alive it is up to you*


_Cycle: YOU have ruined me. (I have no power over myself, only you can control my life.)_

LVS, did I tell you about when I broke up with my abusive ex-fiance? He, too, was totally shocked. How could I? He had never been bad to me! (forget about all the mental abuse, the sex I didn't want to have, losing all my friends and family, changing me into someone I didn't recognize...OH, and don't forget the 3-year-long affair he had going on behind my back with his old girlfriend)

We worked across the street from each other. After I broke up with him, he went to my car and removed the rotor so I couldn't drive away. Then he came back to my apartment and started berating me. He wouldn't leave. So I left, found out my car wouldn't work, so I walked 2 miles to find a payphone and get help. He spent the next 2 months coming to my work every.single.day, crying, moaning, begging, yelling...all the cycles. I felt SO BAD! By then, I JUST KNEW it was all my fault, I was just being a selfish b*tch. I wanted to die. 

Luckily I worked in a store with all guys and they started protecting me from him. He stops for a few weeks then shows up again; begs the guys to let him see me, he has something important to tell me. (sound familiar?) He told me that he had had to drop out of college. That we was so utterly forlorn and lovesick that he couldn't even concentrate enough to make it through a single class; he was failing everything so he had to just drop out. And it was going to be all my fault, he was going to end up being a bum on the street if I didn't go back to him.

Of course I didn't. He finally gave up, and I heard he did go back to school and graduate. I later heard that he ended up getting fired from his fancy buyer job because he was taking kickback money under the table (illegal). Oh, and that he almost immediately found a new girl and married her; she looked just like me. Creepy.

LVS, your ex is not owning his own responsibility yet. There is NO going back until he hits that point. You know that because he HASN'T hit that point, if you went back now he would instantly revert to the mean man who would make you PAY for doing this to him. Of course, it would be ALL your fault.

For your kids' sakes if for nothing else, so they learn not to be like him (or a victim), you have to stay the course. And it IS the right course. I promise. If he ever hits rock bottom and does start learning about what he did wrong, maybe you'll see the guy you thought he was. But that would be years down the road.


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## turnera

This is worth repeating. It's just what I was going to say:


> LVS, you CAN do this--and I suspect you know it would be best for you. Right now you just don't "want" to. Rather than saying, "I can't help it"...find out why you would not love yourself enough to keep yourself safe from the manipulations and hurt of a man like this. You are a wonderful, loving, beautiful woman and you do deserve to be treated as a mature, respected individual.
> 
> Soooooo...what are you going to do, LVS? Are you doing to find a support group? Go to your counselor? Talk to the judge? Get a restraining order? Block him? Remove VM from your phone? What are you going to do?


A real easy fix is to change your phone number. The kids can still find you.

And if he tries to circumvent that by showing up at your house like a crazy person - THEN you get that restraining order because that IS OVER THE EDGE.


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## LVS

On Wednesday it was a family event and he supposed to be the first to participate in this event but he wasn't there, my kids were alone. 
What message he is trying to send to his family members, to his kids, and to his cousins? In what kind of situation he is dragging himself? hmmm

Anyway I am in peace since Wednesday no phone calls no text messages and no voice messages...What makes me feel little bit relieved and not thinking about taking any action.

Does he lost hope? Is he thinking about another way to act? Did he give up? or he is giving me a break to breathe and relax which he thinks i might need it before he starts back? What is his next plan?


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## LVS

Affaircare said:


> LVS--"I can't help it" ? Really? Or do you mean that you choose NOT to help it? You may not want to feel guilty but you have options to block him from all this contact and you choose not to follow those options...
> 
> ...LVS, you CAN do this--and I suspect you know it would be best for you. Right now you just don't "want" to. Rather than saying, "I can't help it"...find out why you would not love yourself enough to keep yourself safe from the manipulations and hurt of a man like this. You are a wonderful, loving, beautiful woman and you do deserve to be treated as a mature, respected individual.


I love myself Affaircare i do love myself but i am still STRUGGLING with PERFECTION. I have learned that things doesn't have to be perfect but i am still feeling scared to take actions fears of blame (my life story lol)

I know i am trying to reason with someone who doesn't know how to reason even he always pretends to.

I was trying to live day by day and hope that days run faster until divorce is final not because i am a weak person who can't do anything. I am aware now of all my strengths and i know how much I CAN but as you said i choose not to do it. WHY? because i would guilt and blame myself for ever if i did something in purpose that might hurt him or any of my kids. 

Am i wrong by thinking this way??



Affaircare said:


> Soooooo...what are you going to do, LVS? Are you doing to find a support group? Go to your counselor? Talk to the judge? Get a restraining order? Block him? Remove VM from your phone? What are you going to do?


I am going to find a support group. Do you know how i can start? I mean where to find it?
I am also going to see my therapist
About restraining order, he stopped now and it is hard for me to do it unless he did something physically dangerous.
Maybe if he started back pressuring me i might block him, but i don't see changing my phone number or stopping my VM is an option, I just started my business as Avon representative and i have my phone number on my business cards and Avon brochures so all my customers have it. Soon or late he is going to find out my phone number even if i changed it.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> LVS, your ex is not owning his own responsibility yet. There is NO going back until he hits that point. You know that because he HASN'T hit that point, if you went back now he would instantly revert to the mean man who would make you PAY for doing this to him. Of course, it would be ALL your fault.
> 
> For your kids' sakes if for nothing else, so they learn not to be like him (or a victim), you have to stay the course. And it IS the right course. I promise. If he ever hits rock bottom and does start learning about what he did wrong, maybe you'll see the guy you thought he was. But that would be years down the road.




Even though i know that no word he can say is going to erase my deep anger and the hurt i lived especially last year with him, what gives me more strength to not being dragged back into his life.. having everything documented is helping me more... but I AM EMOTIONALLY EXHAUSTED, MY MIND IS BLOCKED, and MY HEART IS SORE..

So i am not going back to him turnera but emotionally i am suffering

In the other hand, what i am doing in my daily life.
Beside my job, I am trying to enjoy life to have fun and to fill all my free time.
I am working as Avon representative which is filling most my free time
I am working in alteration helping a friend from church in her shop few hours weekly
I took the paraprofessional district exam and i passed it and the HR contacted me to do my finger prints so i become ready to be a teacher assistant in the unified school district in my city. Finally i will be back to my field in teaching 
I am still doing volunteering when i have time, doing office work in my church and taking the Eucharist once a week to a sick person.
Am i overwhelming myself? Maybe! I barely have time to breathe I have no time to think deeply and clearly about anything i go to bed exhausted as soon as i put my head on my pillow i fall asleep.

Is this good or bad? it may be bad because maybe i should take a decision about something i am not doing it, and good because it is letting the time run faster and maybe this is what i need until the divorce is final...


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## turnera

I'm glad you're doing things, but I think your balance is wrong. You're a Giver, which means you don't like yourself so you get worth by Giving of yourself to others, so you don't have to stop and think about who YOU are and whether you are worthy.

If I were you, I would focus on going to a therapist at least every other week, and I would focus on finding a help group that you attend every week. Call United Way and ask them to help you find the closest one to you that's a good fit. In your city, you should be able to find lots of them.

While you're at United Way, ask them what harrassment looks like to them. YOU are not being objective about what he is doing. YOU can't see it the way everyone else sees it.

For example, my husband is...weird when he's in public. He does weird things. Like last night, we ordered dinner at a restaurant, and he just got up and started walking around the restaurant. Looking at this, looking at that. I saw all the waitstaff watching him, wondering what was wrong with him. I'M used to it so it doesn't bother me. But to everyone OUTSIDE my family, he is just weird. I'm used to it. Just like you're used to him calling you at all hours, stopping you from getting in your car, PUTTING YOU LAST.

But to everyone else, he is seriously deranged.

Do you see the difference? YOU may feel you can do without a restraining order, because you're used to how he is. WE see a man who may be really close to breaking and doing something bad. He has made NO effort to change; he still does the exact same things to you as he did 6 months ago. All he obsesses about is getting you back. That's all. He has to own you. And now the final divorce is coming close, he's coming close to losing his opportunity.

You don't want a RO because you're afraid of making him mad. Would you rather he be mad and YOU be safely away from him, or would you rather he 'like' you and you run the risk of him thinking he still owns you and he takes steps to ensure that no one else ever does?


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## bestplayer

turnera said:


> I'm glad you're doing things, but I think your balance is wrong. You're a Giver, which means you don't like yourself so you get worth by Giving of yourself to others, so you don't have to stop and think about who YOU are and whether you are worthy.
> 
> If I were you, I would focus on going to a therapist at least every other week, and I would focus on finding a help group that you attend every week. Call United Way and ask them to help you find the closest one to you that's a good fit. In your city, you should be able to find lots of them.
> 
> While you're at United Way, ask them what harrassment looks like to them. YOU are not being objective about what he is doing. YOU can't see it the way everyone else sees it.
> 
> For example, my husband is...weird when he's in public. He does weird things. Like last night, we ordered dinner at a restaurant, and he just got up and started walking around the restaurant. Looking at this, looking at that. I saw all the waitstaff watching him, wondering what was wrong with him. I'M used to it so it doesn't bother me. But to everyone OUTSIDE my family, he is just weird. I'm used to it. Just like you're used to him calling you at all hours, stopping you from getting in your car, PUTTING YOU LAST.
> 
> But to everyone else, he is seriously deranged.
> 
> Do you see the difference? YOU may feel you can do without a restraining order, because you're used to how he is. WE see a man who may be really close to breaking and doing something bad. He has made NO effort to change; he still does the exact same things to you as he did 6 months ago. All he obsesses about is getting you back. That's all. He has to own you. And now the final divorce is coming close, he's coming close to losing his opportunity.
> 
> You don't want a RO because you're afraid of making him mad. Would you rather he be mad and YOU be safely away from him, or would you rather he 'like' you and you run the risk of him thinking he still owns you and he takes steps to ensure that no one else ever does?



Hi I apologize for thread-jacking but I have an unrelated yet genuine question .

How much $ a day as a visitor will I have to spend for fooding in usa ? and I mean simple sort of foods .

Thanks in advance 
**********************


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## turnera

Depends on if you shop at a grocery store or buy from restaurants. At a grocery store (if you have a kitchen), you can eat for $5/day. If you have to eat at restaurants and fast food chains (McDonalds, Taco Bell, etc.), you'll probably spend about $20-$30/day.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> I'm glad you're doing things, but I think your balance is wrong. You're a Giver, which means you don't like yourself so you get worth by Giving of yourself to others, so you don't have to stop and think about who YOU are and whether you are worthy.
> 
> 
> ...Do you see the difference? YOU may feel you can do without a restraining order, because you're used to how he is. WE see a man who may be really close to breaking and doing something bad. He has made NO effort to change; he still does the exact same things to you as he did 6 months ago. All he obsesses about is getting you back. That's all. He has to own you. And now the final divorce is coming close, he's coming close to losing his opportunity.
> 
> You don't want a RO because you're afraid of making him mad. Would you rather he be mad and YOU be safely away from him, or would you rather he 'like' you and you run the risk of him thinking he still owns you and he takes steps to ensure that no one else ever does?


About the giver thing i am not giving much i only volunteer when i have time about alteration i am getting paid and i am doing so many things for me so turnera i like myself more now.

What you said about normal and weird is true and you hit the point. The fact that i am from different culture makes me not wanting to be taking a decision just because i am in USA hope you got what i mean. So it is not about what is normal for me it is about what is normal in my culture and tradition I know what i did till now is acceptable in my culture and so many in my country are leaving their marriages for similar reasons but taking serious actions like restraining order is not acceptable...

Am I wrong by thinking this way?

I know i tend to act as an american citizen but here i need to think to chose the right for everyone without neglecting my self safety physically and/or emotionally
I know i am exhausted emotionally but what i am going through is much less than before and i know it is just for a certain time...

I am here now but i have my S27 and my parents there so i need to respect them as long as it is safe for me
If he trespasses the limit of security or if he keeps pressuring me after the divorce is final and i feel myself physically or emotionally unsafe then i will take actions.

I just need to feel i am doing it on a safe and reasonable ground
not only physically and emotionally but also financially...


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## turnera

You're only wrong thinking that way if he becomes violent or harasses you so much that you end up hospitalized and can't take care of your kids.

I'm just worried about you because you sound so close to collapse. I'll take your word that you're really in better shape than that. Good luck!

btw, have you done what I asked? Have you gone out and met your neighbors, talked to some women in your apartment complex?

I ask because I had dinner with some old friends last week, women I worked with. It's something I have done fewer than 5 times in 30 years. I am prime evidence that women need other women as friends, to help them through such things. As much as I tried to say I could be all right on my own, just having dinner with them did SO much to make me feel more human, more female, more worthy of having friends, especially after having lived the lives we've lived. Please consider it.


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## LVS

*"Happy valentine's day to u and to the one who deserves you."*

This is his text sent to me on Valentine's day with no reply from my side
I don't want to reply but maybe i would if i didn't feel offended. I have no one to celebrate valentine's day with him NO ONE! even i know it is my right now but right now i am not looking for anyone.

Maybe he has right to think i am with someone else but he doesn't have the right to say it..

I can reply with mean words but i don't want to open conversation and give him an excuse to start chatting with me


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## turnera

It's just more goading. More 'pity me' and 'look at how sad and alone I am' crap. Ignore it. You're right - he's just trying to goad you into talking to him.


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## bestplayer

turnera said:


> Depends on if you shop at a grocery store or buy from restaurants. At a grocery store (if you have a kitchen), you can eat for $5/day. If you have to eat at restaurants and fast food chains (McDonalds, Taco Bell, etc.), you'll probably spend about $20-$30/day.


thanks turnera , I knew , because of your helping nature you would be the first to answer my question . 
Thanks a lot :smthumbup:


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## Affaircare

> I love myself Affaircare i do love myself but i am still STRUGGLING with PERFECTION. I have learned that things doesn't have to be perfect but i am still feeling scared to take actions fears of blame (my life story lol)


I want you to do me a favor, LVS. Today, on Valentines Day, I want you to actively do an action that shows you that YOU love yourself. Take a piece of blank paper and fold it into 8 pieces (in half, in half, in half one more time) and then cut those pieces. On each piece, write out "I am not responsible for someone else's choices." Then tape those up around the house in places where you will see them every day, like on the mirror in your bathroom or on your computer monitor. I still have mine on my computer to this day!! And this note is to remind you that as an adult you are personally responsible for the choices YOU make and the costs of those choices, but YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for the choices he makes. You tell me...who is responsible for his choices and for the COST OF HIS CHOICES? 

See, he has mislead you into believing that "perfection" is him making bad choices, and YOU paying the cost for HIS choice!!! That is not perfection--it's not even love!!!! Some other words that relate to real "perfection" are accomplishment, achievement, exactness, excellence, exquisiteness, faultlessness, fulfillment, ideal, impeccability, integrity, maturity, merit, paragon,precision, purity, quality, superiority, transcendence, virtue, wholeness. I see these words and my first thought is that I would like to see you accomplish. I would do my best to help you achieve your dream. I would encourage you to be exact in your actions. I would support you in excellence and (as you have seen by the way I write) call you out on it when you are missing the mark. I see your exquisiteness already and would like to show the whole world the beautiful treasure that you are. Can you see my point? Those words describe or are closely related to "perfection" and not one of them has to do with "you pay the cost of my bad choice" nor with a person putting someone they claim to "love" into the position of having to be hurt on their account!!! It is not your job bear the pain if he is hurt because he acted badly. And the day that he displays BY ACTIONS (not words) that he acted badly and it hurts him and he is willing to bear his own pain...that's the day he understands...and not before. Please note that turnera has made many mistakes in her life and never once has said, "LVS, you have to bear the pain for my mistakes." Likewise I am less than perfect and have made one or two very tiny mistakes rofl...but again I have never once tried to guilt you into paying the price for what I did. Why is that? It's because turnera and I are personally responsible. See it?



> I know i am trying to reason with someone who doesn't know how to reason even he always pretends to.


Right. So far you have tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried to "reason" with him, and what has the result been? Blame, accusations, criticism, guilt, disapproval, opposition and tirades. So if you continue to try reasoning, what will the result be most likely? Yep...more of the same! If you want to change the result and not get the blame, guilt, and tirades...you have to change what you do! So what are you going to do differently? Reasoning does not work. We have proven that as a fact. What will you do differently?



> I was trying to live day by day and hope that days run faster until divorce is final not because i am a weak person who can't do anything. I am aware now of all my strengths and i know how much I CAN but as you said i choose not to do it. WHY? because i would guilt and blame myself for ever if i did something in purpose that might hurt him or any of my kids.
> 
> Am i wrong by thinking this way??


Well I will say that in my opinion it is a wonderful and loving characteristic you have to not want to hurt another person. I think that is very benevolent and generous...and those are the kinds of qualities a person might admire and pursue. Yet, let me give you an example and you tell me what you think, LVS. 

A mother has a small, 2 year old child who is constantly playing with the coffee pot cord. She knows that if the child pulls on it, they could dump a whole pot of coffee on their head and burn themselves...or they could pull the cord out and shock themselves with the electricity. But the child is hurt that the mom says 'No' and the child cries. The child feels badly because they WANT the cord! The child kicks and screams and does everything it can to get the mom to say 'Yes' including hit her and hurt her. Now...is the mom "purposefully hurting the child"? Or is the mom doing what she knows is best (protecting from a bad burn or electrical shock) even though the child is hurt? 

If I were to go with your way of thinking, LVS, the mom would let the child play with the cord because NOT playing with the coffee pot cord "hurts" the child and makes the child "feel bad." Yet clearly it is a parent's job...no really it is an ADULT'S job...to be more mature than the child and on occasion decide that the "hurt feelings" would be a lesser hurt than allowing the child to be burned! It is very similar with your husband (although he is not a child, he sometimes *acts* like one though ). He wants what he wants when he wants it, and with little or no regard for who it might hurt or even whether it would hurt him! He will kick and scream and even hit you (verbal punches...guilt), to get what he wants. But if you truly do love him, you will endure because it's in his best interest to learn to be personally responsible!! Understanding that would bring him out of childish, abusive behavior and into adult, mature behavior. 

Sooooo....again you can decide Ms. LVS. Are you going to let him play with the coffee pot cord and dump coffee on his head and experience a bad burn? Or are you going to be wiser and let him have some pain now for not getting what he wants but give him the chance to learn the bigger lesson of personal responsibility? And again, also note that you say you "guilt and blame yourself" for his choices. Why? Why do you so readily take on the burden and responsibility of others? Want to carry MY guilt for a while? How about turnera's? I mean my GOODNESS, she's been such a big help to you--don't you OWE HER to be blamed for her decisions? Why not? Then why do you somehow think it's your job to carry HIS? That's HIS to bear not yours!!



> I am going to find a support group. Do you know how i can start? I mean where to find it?
> I am also going to see my therapist


Good! I'm not sure which state you live in, but here is a page that will help you find a support group: Finding a support group near you Also I like your therapist. Okay she's a little bit more into some new-age things than I am but overall she is not deceived by his "acts", she offers you wise but supportive encouragement, and she points you in a good direction and then let's you find the way on your own...and that's good! 



> About restraining order, he stopped now and it is hard for me to do it unless he did something physically dangerous.
> Maybe if he started back pressuring me i might block him, but i don't see changing my phone number or stopping my VM is an option, I just started my business as Avon representative and i have my phone number on my business cards and Avon brochures so all my customers have it. Soon or late he is going to find out my phone number even if i changed it.


Ah--so with some medium reasonable reasons to keep your phone number, I would ask you yet another question. Since he keeps texting, calling and leaving VMs that are snarky and mean and intended to disrupt your peace, what creative ways can you think of to use the technology at your fingertips to not open yourself to his slings and arrows? Can you block him on your phone? When you get a notification of a text from him, can you delete it before you read it? You tell me...what CAN you do and what are you WILLING to do in order to protect yourself from someone who has clearly demonstrated the intent is to sling a little barb into your heart? Can you forward his messages to someone else, who will look at them for you and if there's something you need to know they will tell you (like an intermediary)? Can you forward all texts and VMs to your email so they are all in one place and once a day you could print them to document how he talks to you? 

You tell me...what CAN you do and what are you WILLING to do in order to protect yourself from someone who has clearly demonstrated the intent is to sling a little barb into your heart?


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## Shianne

"I was trying to live day by day and hope that days run faster until divorce is final not because i am a weak person who can't do anything. I am aware now of all my strengths and i know how much I CAN but as you said i choose not to do it. WHY? because i would guilt and blame myself for ever if i did something in purpose that might hurt him or any of my kids. 

Am i wrong by thinking this way?? "

I think we might both be wrong on this one... if I am understanding this right but dammit if I'm not right there with you! I can suffer what ever it's them I worry about. It feels so selfish to even say I want xyz for me. Even if xyz is just gentle voices...


----------



## turnera

Shianne, LVS, have you read The Dance Of Anger? It is a VERY important, powerful little book that is all about learning how to NOT be the one who is always guilty, always giving, always suffering. PLEASE read it!


----------



## LVS

hmmm before i reply Affaircare i have an update

He called me 7 hours ago around 12pm and left a VM he said with a serious voice *It is very very important to see you today regarding our S12 i don't want to talk about anything else but it is very very important to see you today an don't bring a third part*

My analysis A smart way to make me see him knowing that i can't refuse talking about our kids

As i see this subject is not urgent to make me run to see him today on valentine's day
Plus if it is urgent he wouldn't send me first the greeting text message right?

Now i have different thoughts i need your help for what should i do?
1- Send him a text msg asking him to tell me what he needs by written message or letter or even voice message
2- Tell him that i am going to call him and if he get over the topic i am going to hang the phone

What do you think is better should i pick one of these two options or keep ignoring him or you have another option ??

Need your advice!!!

He called back now and left another VM i will check it and get back to you


----------



## LVS

*Either you don't believe me or you don't have time for me or for your son if you want to talk about him ok if not it is up to you i am not going to tell you anything anymore*

This is his last VM


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## turnera

Ignore it. It is just more of the same.

Your son is living with you, right? 

Then how, all of a sudden, could your husband have life-threatening information for the boy who is living with YOU?


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## turnera

If you feel like you have to do SOMETHING, do what you suggested: text him and tell him to TEXT you what his issue is. If it's important, he will text you.

If it's not, if it's just more manipulation, he will have nothing to say.


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## LVS

I sent him this text message

"To be honest i don't believe there is something urgent about our son
If so you can send it by text message by a letter or a VM so i know what is it about"


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## turnera

Good job.


----------



## LVS

He sent a VM *I knew you are not going to believe me.
I am sure of what i am saying but this is your son and you are free to do whatever you need with him I gave up.*

I said in a text message I don['t understand what you want to talk about and what is wrong with our son?

He sent another VM *I am tired of talking it is new information about his psychological situation these information i can't talk about in a text message or on the phone so it is up to you if you want to know or not*

I know there is something true in this which are the information but i know he is manipulating to see me and i am not going to do it his way 
I can't type more i need to go now i will get back to you


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## Shianne

You are doing great  I wish I could keep pace! I see it too... he is just using his best weapons. He could say it over a voice mail or in a text. If it were really big the doctors or the like would call you or you would see the sympyoms yourself. I would gamble he wants to tell you that the split has hurt your son so much that you simply must take him back right away...


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## turnera

Isn't your son with you? Just ask your son.


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## LVS

My S12 had a period where he was waking up shaking and scared and the doctor said it is related to stress.

It happened several times in his dad's apt and only one time in mine but when i laid by his side for few min he stopped shaking and fell back asleep I had a conversation with him next day and i learned that he had thoughts about the demon coming to hurt him at night 
so it is related to something he is watching on the TV i prayed with him and i gave him the cross to keep it under his pillow and told him that Jesus will keep his angels around him so no demon is going to hurt him after that he felt more secure and since he started staying with me a month ago he never had this problem but still sometimes feel scared and i see this normal in his age.

I remember myself at his age i had a lot of thoughts about devil and going to hell and get burned also it was related to what we were told "being good we go to heaven and being bad we go to hell where we got burned"

I know that divorce is going to be hard on all the family but as i see what is going on in his little mind some is related to what he is watching on TV but most is related to what he heard his dad saying in front of him about the family about me and about the hurt he is living because of me. 
My son is so attached to me and doesn't want to lose me not also lose his dad. In my conversation with him he told me that he is scared and he doesn't want us to fight in the court for the custody and things like that...

or his dad what is happening is caused because of splitting the family and it is something i caused it blablabla.

So that's what he is trying to talk about.

Now what is new in his psychological situation, i don't know, but i know my H if he wants to say something he is going to say it no matter what so i don't want to fall in his games and i don't want to do it his way.
if it is important soon or late i am going to know it. Right? 

Today he left me a VM with a rude tone to remind me of our son's eye appointment and to tell me where it is cheaper to buy his glasses (i am going to pay all that)


----------



## turnera

So...if he's living with you, there's nothing 'new' that could have happened. So just ignore him.


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## LVS

Affaircare said:


> I want you to do me a favor, LVS. Today, on Valentines Day, I want you to actively do an action that shows you that YOU love yourself. Take a piece of blank paper and fold it into 8 pieces (in half, in half, in half one more time) and then cut those pieces. On each piece, write out "I am not responsible for someone else's choices." Then tape those up around the house in places where you will see them every day, like on the mirror in your bathroom or on your computer monitor. I still have mine on my computer to this day!! And this note is to remind you that as an adult you are personally responsible for the choices YOU make and the costs of those choices, but YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for the choices he makes. You tell me...who is responsible for his choices and for the COST OF HIS CHOICES?


This is a good one, I did it Affaircare and it is going to be my morning noon afternoon evening and night prayer  Until my mind learns that I am responsible on for my choices not someone else's choice




Affaircare said:


> Right. So far you have tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried to "reason" with him, and what has the result been? Blame, accusations, criticism, guilt, disapproval, opposition and tirades. So if you continue to try reasoning, what will the result be most likely? Yep...more of the same! If you want to change the result and not get the blame, guilt, and tirades...you have to change what you do! So what are you going to do differently? Reasoning does not work. We have proven that as a fact. What will you do differently?


Many times I do reason with him knowing it is not going to work but what pushes me to keep doing it is to avoid to be blamed for something I didn't try especially from my kids so when I need to take an action no one will blame me because I reasoned and tried all the other options
I know I should stop it but this is how I think..




Affaircare said:


> A mother has a small, 2 year old child who is constantly playing with the coffee pot cord. She knows that if the child pulls on it, they could dump a whole pot of coffee on their head and burn themselves...or they could pull the cord out and shock themselves with the electricity. But the child is hurt that the mom says 'No' and the child cries. The child feels badly because they WANT the cord! The child kicks and screams and does everything it can to get the mom to say 'Yes' including hit her and hurt her. Now...is the mom "purposefully hurting the child"? Or is the mom doing what she knows is best (protecting from a bad burn or electrical shock) even though the child is hurt?
> 
> If I were to go with your way of thinking, LVS, the mom would let the child play with the cord because NOT playing with the coffee pot cord "hurts" the child and makes the child "feel bad." Yet clearly it is a parent's job...no really it is an ADULT'S job...to be more mature than the child and on occasion decide that the "hurt feelings" would be a lesser hurt than allowing the child to be burned! It is very similar with your husband (although he is not a child, he sometimes *acts* like one though ). He wants what he wants when he wants it, and with little or no regard for who it might hurt or even whether it would hurt him! He will kick and scream and even hit you (verbal punches...guilt), to get what he wants. But if you truly do love him, you will endure because it's in his best interest to learn to be personally responsible!! Understanding that would bring him out of childish, abusive behavior and into adult, mature behavior.


What I do is in purpose to save the child I try to give the child a substitute to the cord so she will play with something else and reject what is going to hurt her. But when all my trial fail then I chose the hard choice.
I know what I do many times is not reasonable and I count on my gut feeling though it never failed me till now also I know it is risky. Because I can't always take chances



Affaircare said:


> Sooooo....again you can decide Ms. LVS. Are you going to let him play with the coffee pot cord and dump coffee on his head and experience a bad burn? Or are you going to be wiser and let him have some pain now for not getting what he wants but give him the chance to learn the bigger lesson of personal responsibility? And again, also note that you say you "guilt and blame yourself" for his choices. Why? Why do you so readily take on the burden and responsibility of others? Want to carry MY guilt for a while? How about turnera's? I mean my GOODNESS, she's been such a big help to you--don't you OWE HER to be blamed for her decisions? Why not? Then why do you somehow think it's your job to carry HIS? That's HIS to bear not yours!!


True what you said is totally true. I know this is how I lived all my life with my father and my H but it is time to stop it also stop the FOG of Fear Obligation and Guilt. My mind is still in mess and I am still facing problems with priorities in my life. My emotional well-being is seeing the light but still so many other priorities come ahead I am trying to get off the cycle of FOG but still on a baby steps



Affaircare said:


> Ah--so with some medium reasonable reasons to keep your phone number, I would ask you yet another question. Since he keeps texting, calling and leaving VMs that are snarky and mean and intended to disrupt your peace, what creative ways can you think of to use the technology at your fingertips to not open yourself to his slings and arrows? Can you block him on your phone? When you get a notification of a text from him, can you delete it before you read it? You tell me...what CAN you do and what are you WILLING to do in order to protect yourself from someone who has clearly demonstrated the intent is to sling a little barb into your heart? Can you forward his messages to someone else, who will look at them for you and if there's something you need to know they will tell you (like an intermediary)? Can you forward all texts and VMs to your email so they are all in one place and once a day you could print them to document how he talks to you?
> 
> You tell me...what CAN you do and what are you WILLING to do in order to protect yourself from someone who has clearly demonstrated the intent is to sling a little barb into your heart?


All I am waiting for is to have the divorce final which going to happen in couple days hopefully, and also to feel little secure financially so he can't threaten to hurt me with anything because I know how mean he is when he flips to the other side.

I will try to find someone who accepts to be intermediary and forward his texts to them.

I was thinking about a way to save his VM and texts I am glad you mentioned to forward them to my email I don't know how I am going to do it but I will ask about it if you know it will be great because I want to save them especially the VMs.


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## turnera

Are you aware of how many of your choices are based on not having people think badly of you?

Do you realize that such a choice is a pipe dream, impossible? If you spend your whole life dedicated to gaining the pleasure of others, something COMPLETELY out of your control, you will spend your whole life miserable, desperate to please, and failing, because there's no way to guarantee that people will see you in the right light or see things your way.

Are you covering this in your work with your therapist?


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## LVS

In fact i have worked a lot on this part and i am getting a lot better and my concerns about the others' satisfaction faded it is now limited to my kids and little bit my parents but mostly my kids and much less than before
I am still working on that i told my therapist about it, she didn't have time to work on it yet but she encouraged me to be more myself without caring about the others' opinion which i know and i am working on that


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## turnera

Good to know. I know it's hard. Can you do some reading? Healing The Shame That Binds You is excellent.


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## Shianne

You are doing well but the whole pleasing people thing gets me too. Tonight I pictured myself just walking out of the house and hanging a sign on the door. I envisioned "I'm not a wh*r*. I just didn't like you" lol (40 year old virgin)

I need a real eff them all stance. 

This term FOG... wow that's acurate huh


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## LVS

Turnera I ordered the book online and will get it within a week.

Today Feb 16 6 months since my H has being served the divorce papers
Today the judge may sign them I am waiting. My H is quiet and I think he is hating me now because I didn't give him another chance and didn't even listen to him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shianne

He can just go ahead and hate. 

You DID give him another chance!! and another, and another, and another, and another. 

You DID listen to far more than any person should ever have to listen to. Over and over again...


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## COGypsy

Shianne said:


> He can just go ahead and hate.
> 
> You DID give him another chance!! and another, and another, and another, and another.
> 
> You DID listen to far more than any person should ever have to listen to. Over and over again...


You should print this out and put it where you'll see it every day--LVS and Shianne both!! It's a perfect mantra!


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## Shianne

It's what I keep saying to myself as I try not to cave. I have been anyway but each time I am a lilttle stronger


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## turnera

LVS, he will ALWAYS hate you. Even if you went back to him, he would STILL hate you. You have embodied ALL HIS PROBLEMS. You've let that happen through your goodness and lack of understanding what was going on. If it wasn't you, he would have picked some other woman and made HER to be the embodiment of all the evil in his life.

That's how he survives, as an abusive personality - by refusing to accept blame, by blameshifting, by HATING. 

With or without you, he will always hate.

And as has been said, you have given hiim WAY too many chances. This is what his consequences look like.


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## LVS

Thank you Shianne and it is true CoGypsy i do give so many chances when i even think it is enough and i should let go i still find a way to give one more chance and this is what i should work more to change it Print what Shianne said and post it on my wall is a good one lol maybe you were just saying it but i did it and it is on my wall

It is hard to admit it turnera but you are right that's the reality and i need to deal with it the way it is and move on emotionally


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## LVS

This is what happened yesterday and made me post a new thread

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/21977-gift-god.html 

I feel so happy for the big change within myself
Isn't it wonderful to think this way without the effect of any medication or anti-depressant (and this is another good news because since a month i am not taking my anti-depressant i got new refill and i was asked to increase the daily dosage and for some reason i didn't take them and i still have them by my bed but i don't feel i need them )

All the positive thoughts in my mind without the effect of the medication but with the effect of the continuous work on myself and all the positive things i am doing in my life and the rise of my true SELF 

Thank you my friends for your support and guidance when i extremely needed them.


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## LVS

He called and left me a VM he said 
*There are important things to tell you and they are long to leave them in a VM b/c I will need to record more than one VM
So I suggest to call you and you just hold the phone and I will say what I need to say then hang up
*
I could do that and maybe i should because it is about our S12 but i don't know how his voice shakes me from inside i feel my heart sour and not handling to hear him more so i sent him a text msg 

I said What you need to tell me please send it in a letter.
He replied *No way! i told u that before*
I sent him another text i said Sorry but i don't like the tone you use with me i don't need to hear it even in VM so please limit your contact with me to a written letters or emails

He called back and in a VM he was yelling and said
*You don't like my tone but at least i didn't teat you like an animal as you did. This is the last time i am calling you, if you don't want to know what i am going to say you will lose and your S12 is going to lose so do what you want but just you need to know that i am leaving my mom's apt and disappearing by the end of the month so see what you are going to do with your son and who is going to take care of him when you are at work or bring him from school because i am not going to be present.*

I replied by text message
I am not going to comment to your accusations. Whatever you need to say you can write it down. Good that you said this is the last time you call because also it is the last VM i am going to listen to 
If anything is important about our kids you can send it either by letter or by email and i will do the same 
Thank you


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## turnera

Awesome! That was an excellent way to answer him. Now he's going to tell you that he is going to kill himself, like my ex and my husband both do, since this didn't work.

If he tries that, just tell him to think about his kids.


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## WhereAmI

LVS said:


> He called back and in a VM he was yelling and said
> *You don't like my tone but at least i didn't teat you like an animal as you did. This is the last time i am calling you, if you don't want to know what i am going to say you will lose and your S12 is going to lose so do what you want but just you need to know that i am leaving my mom's apt and disappearing by the end of the month so see what you are going to do with your son and who is going to take care of him when you are at work or bring him from school because i am not going to be present.*


KEEP THIS! It shows how unstable he is and that he doesn't really care what's best for your son. If he ever decides to fight you for custody, this will be a great thing to have! 

It would also be a good idea to have proof of your texts before and after his outburst, as it shows you acting like a rational adult.

It's been wonderful watching your transformation. You have to be feeling really good about yourself. :smthumbup:


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## Affaircare

NOTE TO SELF: On a practical level, it sounds to me as if you may want to start making arrangements with your work so you can take your son to school, and then make some after-school arrangements for S12 that do not involve his father caring for him--such as a sports program or going to a friend's house. Then if his father "disappears" you do have some arrangements prepared...and if he doesn't "disappear" you'll know it was all in an effort to control you and hurt you. Either way you and your son will be covered...and you've taken your STBX's threats seriously.


----------



## WhereAmI

turnera said:


> Awesome! That was an excellent way to answer him. Now he's going to tell you that he is going to kill himself, like my ex and my husband both do, since this didn't work.
> 
> If he tries that, just tell him to think about his kids.


I think I'd just call 911. That way she's sure someone is doing something about it and she doesn't give away her power over a probably idle threat.


----------



## turnera

WhereAmI said:


> I think I'd just call 911. That way she's sure someone is doing something about it and she doesn't give away her power over a probably idle threat.


 WhereAmI, you are so right. I don't know what I was thinking - there IS no talking to such a person.

LVS, ignore my last post.


----------



## LVS

No contact since last time. The ocean is so quiet after the storm or maybe before the storm i don't know lol.

I will see what i can do Affaircare. Thank you for the advice.

turnera and WhereAmI, as I see the situation from my view point 
He is still not going to fight me yet. All what he is focusing on right now is getting me back and get back the family together.
That's why i don't think he is going to threaten to kill himself yet.

It is all about manipulation as you all suspect. All what happened in his dictionary is only an unsuccessful trial. I know he is going to try another one soon.

He still have hope not because he really has it but because he is refusing to give up and admit that he lost me.

He gave himself more hope when he said that he doesn't believe in civil divorce but he only believes in church annulment. 

It is so clear that he found a way to keep the hope and as i see he won't focus on himself until losing hope either by getting the annulment or if i get involved with someone else.

I know if he thinks in rational way, we are in United States and i am free now to be with anyone else
But he is still refusing this fact. Till when? This is the question. How much he can resist the bad thoughts and how much he can hold on the hope. I can't guess but i know he is an impatient person.
I am going to try to find a way to deal with any possibility. Your posts are so insightful.

Thank you!!


----------



## LVS

Today my D23 came and we decided to go out have lunch

She was thinking a lot with less talking. Suddenly she said Mom what do you think if we have lunch all together with dad?

I looked at her and said did your dad told you to ask it?
She said no
I said then why you are asking it? Do you want to mess up your day? 
She said what would mess it up? Why not mom?
I said i don't think it is a good idea now.
She didn't respond. We went out for lunch and enjoyed our time but she seemed little distracted, something in her mind she didn't share it with me i can feel it has to do with her dad and how to bring us back together


----------



## turnera

I hope you can see that your inability to stand up for yourself and protect yourself has turned into your children's inability to stand up for themselves. I see it in my DD20 all the time. She BECOMES who I am.

You have to stand strong and not cave. You have to explain to your daughter that what her dad does is HARMFUL to you. That your #1 job in life is to protect yourself so you can protect your kids.

If she doesn't see that, well, that's her own journey to take.


----------



## LVS

I understand all the rational thinking
I know that i did the right 
I know I would never admit that anyone treat my kids the same way i was treated.
I know if anyone living the same situation i was in my advice for them is to leave.

Then WHY I am still listening to my inner voice telling me that I need to go back to him and we are meant to be together ...... WHY i can not let go and move on?

I am scared to be sucked back to a destructive relationship
I know it is me who decides about my life but scared to come to a point where i surrender and listen to my inner voice and ignore everything 

The reason i am saying so is because this voice becomes louder When i am in peace 
When my H is calm and not pressuring me 
When i am feeling better and under less stress

I know what I should do I know what i need and what i want then why i feel regret and remorse every time i think to move on with my life

This feeling weakens me when i should be more strong.
How can i give my kids the good advice when i am still struggling and confused and undecided
It is like i don't feel bad for myself if i go back to him but i feel bad for him if i move on 
This is a proof that all what i am working on is failing and i am still putting everyone ahead of me

I am exhausted and what i feel is not helping me.

I feel sorry for myself because
With all the advice you and everyone are giving to me 
With all your support and guide
With all the knowledge that i have 
I am still feeling this way

I need to share with you my fears because i need to move on but......!!!!

Is there anything i still can do to help myself? I don't want to hate myself for my weakness...


----------



## LVS

I need to learn how to put my actions and my feelings on the same page

Because the way i am acting is the perfect and right way but the way i am feeling is still different

I remember Uptown words about my inner child
I guess this is why i am still struggling.
How can i help my inner child to grow? hmmmmm Can i do anything to help or i am going to stay like that all my life?


----------



## turnera

I think you should put more focus into getting more change in your life. You're not moving forward, so your past looks better, the more you get away from his anger and manipulation. The longer you're away, the more you forget his bad side. So his good side looks better, now that you are alone.

Have you gone and tried to make friends yet? Joined any groups?


----------



## LVS

I am trying to find a support group close to me. There is none in the city were i live. I called sister T the psychotherapist and asked her if in my parish there is any support group for divorced women and she said no not in our parish. She asked me why i am looking for it, I told her about my thoughts, she gave me appointment on Thursday at 9 am.


----------



## LVS

Now i have something to update 

He bought a car to our D18 Here is the story

She was giving private lessons and saving money because her dad promised to sell her his car. When it was the date to buy the car he started pressuring her and manipulating her blaming her over so many things and belittling her and her boyfriend. He was a day giving her the car and take the money and the second day he takes the car back and give her the money and this happened more than once.
She was frustrated and crying trying to walk on eggshells out of her ways just to not make him mad at her because she needs him.
After manipulating her few days he gave her his car. This was last week. He was planning to buy her another car but he didn't tell her
Yesterday he gave her the keys and she was so happy now but i am not because he can manipulate her anytime because he is the owner of the new car.

Today he took my son shopping for clothes and yesterday he sent me with my D18 the AAA card (if i have enough money i would send it back but i need it and i can't afford paying for it)

So he is trying to show his nice side to me and the kids (as we all suspected so he is planning for something i don't know what it is)
He also told my S12 that he is going somewhere and he is not going to be present on his birthday which is on the 2nd of March

So is he leaving or not i don't know yet. Let's wait and see.


----------



## Shianne

I am so with you. Well, you are ahead of me, but I completely understand the feelings of wanting those good parts. If they were 100% bad we would have walked away easily. Ours is not that simple. I was going to have hubby out by Saturday but I failed. Instead he took Friday off work to make his presense known and felt he could be nice enough to make me cave. We bought a car and had sex... It worked... but we are back talking about how he needs to go tonight... I don't really want to wait for the next blow out. I know it is hard to remember how it was but ... well... it was! You are not crazy and you are in the right


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## sisters359

LVS, I have followed your thread but missed some, so I just want to ask, are your children in therapy? They really, really need it. Perhaps they could meet with your own therapist who can help them understand--in a way appropriate for their ages--WHY you cannot be with their father. I worry your S12 is fearful not just b/c of his age/tv shows, but all this uncertainty and his father's manipulations. It is very difficult for a child who has been told by a parent, "I'm leaving" if the parent makes it vague, not saying WHEN he will return. One of the top 3 things kids fear in divorce is losing a parent--and yet your son is getting old enough to understand that when his father says or does something like this, it is proof of his mental illness and, while sad, is nothing your son can control. I just really hope the kids are getting help. My ex was not overtly abusive but he is clearly mentally ill, and my children may need therapy if he doesn't pull himself together soon. I'm getting the same kind of guilt trip but in a different way--the message is still the same, I've caused all his pain and only I, by coming back to him, can heal him. I'm trying very hard to be supportive without giving him any mixed signals, and I just keep repeating, "you need more professional help." (That's what his therapist says, too, so it isn't just me!)

We cannot live our lives solely so that THEY won't be unhappy. And even if we tried, THEY WOULD STILL BE UNHAPPY. My ex was never happy before, and yours wasn't either--look at his meanness to you as evidence that he was unhappy. He thinks you can make it all better, but only HE can do that. It is hard not to give in, hard when the kids suffer b/c their father is so unstable. But if we can teach our kids that they are NOT responsible for another person's happiness, it will honestly be the best lesson we can give them for when they begin to have relationships of their own. God bless.


----------



## LVS

sisters359 said:


> LVS, I have followed your thread but missed some, so I just want to ask, are your children in therapy? They really, really need it. Perhaps they could meet with your own therapist who can help them understand--in a way appropriate for their ages--WHY you cannot be with their father...


Not yet I asked my Therapist but she said she doesn't work with kids 
Sister T from my parish is a psychotherapist and she is giving me a lot of help i am going to meet with her on Thursday and i will ask her if she can help my S12 i am sure she will i asked her before if she can talk to my D18 and she agreed but my D18 refused to go she said that she was in need in the past but now she is better.




sisters359 said:


> We cannot live our lives solely so that THEY won't be unhappy. And even if we tried, THEY WOULD STILL BE UNHAPPY. My ex was never happy before, and yours wasn't either--look at his meanness to you as evidence that he was unhappy. He thinks you can make it all better, but only HE can do that. It is hard not to give in, hard when the kids suffer b/c their father is so unstable. But if we can teach our kids that they are NOT responsible for another person's happiness, it will honestly be the best lesson we can give them for when they begin to have relationships of their own. God bless.


That is totally true sisters359 for him i am the reason of all his failures and unhappiness When i was with him he was unhappy because of me and When i left him he is unhappy also because of me. He is going to repeat it for ever that i destroyed him and didn't support or help him in all his life and at the same time he wants me back and wants me to help him and be with him for ever. Funny!!!


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## LVS

Shianne said:


> I am so with you. Well, you are ahead of me, but I completely understand the feelings of wanting those good parts. If they were 100% bad we would have walked away easily...


My problem is our relationship was almost 100% bad. When i say there is not even a single reason that makes me miss to go back to him i don't lie there is nothing nothing nothing

The basic things that should exist between couples were not there.
I didn't feel loved i didn't get respect no security no trust (not about cheating but about his instable and unpredictable behavior) no sex life most of it i was punished because he was not in the mood of having sex when he is unhappy or having problems with his father/his mom/his sister/his kids/me/his work/ or maybe if a president died in the south pole lol, 
and when he became unable to perform sex instead of going to see a Dr he was also blaming me for not being manly...
What more, no communication, no sharing responsibilities, no opinion respected or heard, he never had a positive thinking, never know how to enjoy life, no happy moments not including frustrations and blame and guilt, he is always crying over the past not enjoying the present and not hoping for a bright future. 

Every point i mentioned worth divorce and why i still have the thought of going back to him. Am i stupid???


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## Shianne

Not stupid just used to the familiar and this is all so new and probably cold... you aren't alone though. I may be states away but all it takes is an email or PM


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## LVS

I tried to contact the closest group support. They said they have only a workshop on the 26 of March. They tried to make a group support but no one came or showed interest so they cancelled it.

Nothing new about my divorce. I went to the Ymca today and asked the legal advisor the reason of the delay she said sometimes it may take couple weeks but the papers should be on the judge's desk waiting his signature.


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## LVS

Thursday I spoke to sister T the psychotherapist form my parish.
She helped me to feel more comfortable about myself and my decision and gave me her blessing to move on with my life lol 
She said let's do the exercise to find out from where is coming the guilt that you are feeling.
She said the shame or guilt is not coming from you not coming from the time you were in the womb but it is coming from your culture.

She said also that she is going to try to find for me a group support.

I told her about my S12's condition and she said she doesn't work with kids but she can talk to him and see what she can do. She gave me 2 appointments for me on Sunday 6th March and one for my son tomorrow Monday 28th Feb at 4 pm.


By the way, I was going to take my son to celebrate his birthday with his friends on Tuesday the day before his actual birthday since i have work on Wednesday and his dad already told me thast he is going to leave to unknown destination by the end of February lol
Two days ago my son told me that his dad is taking him with his friends on Wednesday. 
I said but i am taking you on Tuesday my son said no it is ok mom Wednesday is my actual birthday and my dad is able to take me. so i didn't say anything. Of course i am going to celebrate his birthday in my way but i am tired from the ups and downs.

Yesterday also my son said that on Monday morning (during school time) his dad is taking him to see his psychiatrist.
My S12 was asked to write a paper about everything disturbing him 
I told him to make two copies from this paper one for the psychiatrist and one for the T. 

Wow two appointments at the same day!!
I think to send his dad a text message and let him know that he doesn't have to take him at school time because i am taking him on the afternoon. what do you think? Or you do have another suggestion!


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## turnera

I would get the name of this psychiatrist and follow up with him/her. Let him/her know the real story so that your ex doesn't color her opinion.


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## turnera

No contacting your ex. No point. He's only doing this to get your attention anyway. Don't give him the pleasure of it working.

Anyway, IMO, the more therapy your kids (and you) get, the better!


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## Shianne

That is so hard! Him toying with a birthday like that! I hope all of the appointments and parties go well


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## LVS

The therapy session for my son went so good and my son felt so much better.

Still no news about divorce. No contact from my H except my S12 called me on Saturday when i was at work to tell me that my brother in law is coming from my country and my son said if i need anything from there my BIL can get it with him. Also my D23 called me to tell me the same.

What would i want from there through my BIL? All what i would ask for are the albums of my kids since they were babies. Anyway i am not sure if i asked for them they are going to give them to me. So my response was thank you i don't need anything.

I feel a stone over my chest, i am trying to move it with all the positive things that i am doing. I am filling my time with all sort of things so i don't have time to think or/and suffer, but here i am exhausted and suffering. I am trying to do joyful things for me and my kids with the little free time left but i don't know how much i can handle this type of life. I am really exhausting myself.


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## turnera

Are you still taking antidepressants? You need to be. Before you just collapse. Your kids need you to be healthy.


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## LVS

It has been around two months i stopped taking the anti depressants.

I am exhausted physically not emotionally. I can't say i am ok emotionally yet but i don't feel i need to be back to the antidepressants. Maybe i need something energetic lol Red Bull maybe lol

Emotionally suffering maybe because i am still overwhelming myself with the future thoughts which i can't do anything about them right now except letting the time tell.

What i am going through is not easy. I know am not the only one in this world who went through these things, but i am very proud of the way i am dealing with my situation till now i don't want to let my hard work be wasted 

So what i need to do is:

-Control my thoughts to not think about what i don't need to think about it.
-Focus on the present and live day by day.
-Save my emotional energy because i am doing great things and i will need to investigate this energy in positive things. 
-Enjoy what i am lucky to have 
-and be always proud of what i am achieving.


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## turnera

sounds like a good plan


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## Shianne

I like it too  
I have been nearly manic in my level of actaul productivity but I can't sit still right now... I do have a clean house though and the kids have more of me  I like building skyscrapers and coloring  and social studies


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## Brewster 59

Hi LVS, its been a while since I chatted with you, sorry to hear you stbx is still pulling the same old crap, seems he has a hard time grasping reality. Anyhow how is your divorce proceeding? If I remember right didnt he default on it, and doesnt that mean that you get exactly what you asked for? Thats what I was told would happen if I defaulted, I was not a control freak but was heartbroken and in a very depressed state. I am soooo glad I got a lawyer he saved me from a looooot of crap like my x ran up 8k of cc debt, my lawyer proved the money was not spent on community needs and so she gets to pay that debt by herself. Anyhow my D went final and while I really miss by best friend and the person she was, I am so glad the D is over. I can hardly wait for the day your D is final and hope it is as uplifting for you as it was for me. Good luck to ya


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## bluesky

If your marriage turned bad after your first child, why did you have 3 more?


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## LVS

bluesky said:


> If your marriage turned bad after your first child, why did you have 3 more?


Thank you Bluesky for your question

Because the cycle of abuse got me deeply and because i never thought my marriage is going to end one day
until i ran out of all my patience and capacity to handle.

That's why i had my 4 kids and this is the only thing that we planned it together and we achieved it.

I know i shouldn't have more than one kid but also so many reasons played a role for having more kids. some of them are what i mentioned above


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## Shianne

LVS...

I just had to say that while some might not be able to understand why I do... I had 2 more myself...

We are going to keep getting stronger! every day


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## LVS

Brewster 59 said:


> Hi LVS, its been a while since I chatted with you, sorry to hear you stbx is still pulling the same old crap, seems he has a hard time grasping reality. Anyhow how is your divorce proceeding? If I remember right didnt he default on it, and doesnt that mean that you get exactly what you asked for? Thats what I was told would happen if I defaulted, I was not a control freak but was heartbroken and in a very depressed state. I am soooo glad I got a lawyer he saved me from a looooot of crap like my x ran up 8k of cc debt, my lawyer proved the money was not spent on community needs and so she gets to pay that debt by herself. Anyhow my D went final and while I really miss by best friend and the person she was, I am so glad the D is over. I can hardly wait for the day your D is final and hope it is as uplifting for you as it was for me. Good luck to ya


Thank you Brewster for your words

Today i checked my case online as i everyday do and it seems i still need to wait 
Here is what i found::

04/07/2011 8:30 AM DEPT. X DEFAULT HEARING 

02/28/2011 CASE ASSIGNED FOR ALL PURPOSES TO DEPARTMENT X 

02/28/2011 REQUEST TO SET UNCONTESTED MATTER RE: DEFAULT/PROVE UP FILED BY LVS

02/28/2011 NOTICE OF JUDGMENT NOT BEING SIGNED AT THIS TIME SENT.

Minutes
YOUR JUDGMENT WAS NOT SIGNED AT THIS TIME - PER THE JUDGE - LONG TERM MARRIAGE SPOUSAL. 
TERMINATION - SET FOR HEARING/THE COURT WILL MAINTAIN YOUR JUDGMENT IN THE FILE PENDING THE. 
HEARING. 
NOTICES PRINTED


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## LVS

WAS THE PEACE TIME LONG ENOUGH?????

I FEEL MAD ANGRY SAD I FEEL I WANT TO BREAK EVERYTHING IN MY HOUSE OVER HIS HEAD? WHY DOES HE DO THAT? WHY???????? 

One more time PUTTING OUR KIDS IN BETWEEN!!!! 
What he is doing is killing me? HE IS HURTING THEM!!! I hate him I hate him I hate him!!!! 

He grouped them D18 and S13 and told them that he wants to do a family vacation he wants to feel at least one more time as family going out together
He said we are going to go for 3 days vacation to another county your mom needs just to be present she doesn't have to talk to him and she doesn't have to pay any money also he is going to book a separate room at the hotel for me so i don't have to be with him at night 
All what he wants as he said in front of them is to be in a family outing before he dies. He said he is not going to live for long time and he is having symptoms that tell that he is going to die 
my D18 asked him what are those symptoms and he said they are private and he can't tell them.
My D18 said to him: we are not going to be a whole family like you said because my older brother and sister are not going to be with us plus you and mom are not going to talk to each other and be distant from each other this is going to mess up the vacation time. 
He said at least you need to think about your little brother who wants to be with his family she said you should not say these things in front of him my brother needs to accept the reality and feel better about it but when you talk like that in front of him you make him hurt more and those words will stuck in his head and he will use them in any situation that he doesn't like...

blablabla and he told our kids to try to convince me to go....

My son was telling me the story and later my daughter told her part too.
Son was begging me to say yes and that he wants to be in a family outing he wants to see us together even if we are not talking to each other. He was begging me to think about it and send a message to his dad to give him my answer.
Daughter said as you wish mom.

I told my S13 while taking him in bed that it is not going to be fun to go in an outing like that i don't feel comfortable to go....and they are not going to enjoy it if we go like that maybe another outing in the future will go all together..Son said so many people are divorced and stay friends and go outing with kids 
I said when your dad know how to talk to me and not talk these things to you maybe we can become friends....

Son started crying and crying and crying. I couldn't find the words to calm him down and i couldn't say ok i am going...
I left him in his room crying and came here to post how i feel.

Few minutes later my son came to me begging me to say yes... I told him go to bed and give me time to think about it. He went to bed with 1% hope..... 

Any suggestion????


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## turnera

I would tell your son to go ahead and go on vacation with his sister and father. Giving in on this would be a HUGE victory for your ex and he would never give up if you do it. 

I remember lots of disappointments in my childhood. Lots of them around my parents, who were divorced. I learned to accept it. This will just have to be such a time for your son. All you can do is keep talking to him about the psychology behind what's going on. That's what I did with my daughter when her dad would run her through the ringer like yours is - explain the psychology of what's being done.


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## Confused-Wife

Your son will be ok. He is young and selfish right now. He just wants a vacation. That sounds bad, but I mean it in the best way. When he is older, he will remember back on this and understand why your couldn't go, and he will appreciate you even more for it. He is just young now and doesn't understand.

Don't give in. Don't go. It would be the worst thing that you could do. Plus, you don't know what your ex has planned. He could potentially put you in a very dangerous position. Keep yourself safe!


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## LVS

They are not going to go if i don't. Their dad is waiting my answer to make the reservation.\

The way my son was crying hurt me so much. I can't do what his dad planned and i can't tell him no it is shattering my heart.


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## turnera

As painful as it is, YOU are the adult and you know why you have to say no. Part of being a parent is doing what is right, even when it's hard. You're being a better parent; remember that.


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## LVS

Thanks for the advice
I said no even my son was saying his that i am selfish not caring for the family and not doing at least one thing nice to them....(same daddy's words) hmmmm..

Their dad showed them that he is disappointed and unhappy and was also saying that i am selfish not caring about the family blablabla....

Friday i asked my kids for a meeting
I told them why i said no and i told them maybe in the near future we might go outing all together when their dad start doing and saying things as they suppose to be said and done.

I told them when i chose divorce it was a very hard decision i had to take it doesn't mean i wanted it, it means i had to take it... 
By taking this choice i lost the family i dreamed to have, i lost my husband, i lost his family and all the family friends, i am by myself with all the responsibilities that i should handle in a strange country with no family to support me 
But i am always the happy person who wants to enjoy every single moment with you 
This means i choose to be happy with the hardest choices i had to take and all the obstacles i had to cross...

My D18 was supporting me and my son hugged me and i am glad that i was able to say things the way i said them..

Thanks one more time for your advice and support


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## LVS

Yesterday was very hard and long day. I was crying and despair.
I was thinking of the lost

I WANT TO BE BACK TO HIM BUT I CAN'T! 
I WANT THE FAMILY TOGETHER BUT IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! 
I WANT TO FEEL SECURE AND SAFE AND STABLE IN MY LIFE WITH A MAN AND A SHOULDER TO LEAN ON WHEN I NEED BUT I CAN'T SEE ANY OF MY NEEDS IS GOING TO BE MET WITH HIM!!!!! 

I AM NOT GOING BACK TO HIM!!!!!! 
I AM MAD!!!!
I AM ANGRY!!!! 
THIS IS THE TIME FOR ME TO LEAVE THE FENCE AND MOVE ON!!!! :iagree:


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## Affaircare

LVS said:


> I WANT TO BE BACK TO HIM BUT I CAN'T!
> I WANT THE FAMILY TOGETHER BUT IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!
> I WANT TO FEEL SECURE AND SAFE AND STABLE IN MY LIFE WITH A MAN AND A SHOULDER TO LEAN ON WHEN I NEED BUT I CAN'T SEE ANY OF MY NEEDS IS GOING TO BE MET WITH HIM!!!!!


LVS~

May I point out to you that what you are mourning is not the loss of your husband the way he actually IS. You are mourning the loss of the ILLUSION that you thought you had. 

You thought you had a lover and life partner who would care for you (Illusion). In real life your husband is not concerned with your sexuality or a life partner who even is aware of you at all, because all he cares about is himself. 

You thought you had a caring father (Illusion). In real life your husband is absolutely willing to hurt even his own children in order to get what he wants. 

You thought you had a man who wanted you for YOU (Illusion). In real life your husband wants you for what you can give him and to use you as his puppet, maid and blame. 

You thought you had a happy, loving family (Illusion). In real life you had a father who didn't care for his own children, and children who were being taught it's okay to mistreat and misuse other people. 

You thought you had security, safety and stability (Illusion). In real life you lived a life of constantly being afraid, threatened, and manipulated into being who you are not, and doing what is against who you are! 

You thought you had a shoulder to lean on when you had need (Illlusion). In real life he USED you and never did comfort you or even consider you or your needs. 

My friend, what you are mourning is not the man that your husband really is because I believe even you can see that he is centered around himself, willing to hurt others, and unable to be loving or in a mutually respectful relationship. I honestly do believe that you do SEE that. But you mourn...not for him but for what you THOUGHT he was: a safe, comforting, loving, thoughtful, kind, gentle, supportive, husband and father. You had an illusion, and now you see the real truth and realize that you do not have your illusion (never really had it). This is sad...and it's worthy of your mourning.


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## turnera

I'm so glad you sat them down and had that talk. That is the adult thing to do, the responsible thing to do. And communication always is the best choice.

As good a person as you are, I have no doubt that you WILL find the right man for you, who will give you all the things you're mourning for.


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## LVS

Affaircare you are so right i agree with all what you said.

I know it is hard but he is making it easier for me by giving me the push to move on each time he acts stupid!!!!

I feel sorry for him and good for me with the anger that i am feeling i am moving faster to the end of the tunnel!

Thank you my friends for the sweet words it means to me a lot your presence with me at this time

Also i am seeing sister T the psychotherapist weekly and she is giving me a great help.


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## turnera

Glad to hear it.

LVS, you are WORTH this, ok? Know that.


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## LVS

I have an update but i am going to put it on a different thread i will link it to this one


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## LVS

This is the link of my new thread 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/dating-scene/23367-when-your-heart-skips-beat.html#post280372


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## LVS

Time for another update

Today my D18 sent me a text message while i was at work she said her dad told her to tell me that her grandma is going to come over tomorrow at noon and he told her to ask me if i am ok with that..

I sent her replied and said please don't ask me anything for your dad.

I feel really mad i use to visit my mother in law almost every morning.

A week before i moved out she sent me a verbal message through my D23 saying that i am not welcomed in her house because i am treating her son bad and until things are fixed between me and my H i can't visit her anymore.

I understand her position as a mother and the way he is telling her things and twisting the truth but the way she kicked me out irritated me without even talking to me in person...

I don't want to see her nor anyone of his family who also cut any relation with me and treated me like if i am not existing...

I can guess why she wants to visit me now and i don't feel comfortable to see her. Or hear her asking me to go back to her son or trying to break my heart....

In addition the court default hearing is next Thursday and i am so nervous about it so i don't need more stress...

Also i don't want to be rude in my response she is my kids grandma.

What is your suggestion? Should i say yes and meet with her??


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## Uptown

LVS, at issue is whether you stand more to gain (having your first opportunity to explain your side of the story to her) than to lose (not enforcing your personal boundaries against a person who betrayed your decades-long friendship without even asking for your side of the story). If you believe your STBexH got his BPD traits from his mother, the answer is easy. 

If not, I suggest considering whether there is anything substantial to be gained by giving her your side of the story. In any event, there is absolutely no reason she should be allowed to dictate the date of the meeting. If you decide to meet her, delay it until after Thursday. If she is unwilling to delay it, it is clear that her only purpose is to influence the outcome of the hearing, not to hear what you have to say.

I wish you the best at the Thursday hearing!


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## turnera

I agree. Send her an email or something saying you'd be glad to see her, but unfortunately, you won't be available until Friday. Will that be ok with her?


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## LVS

turnera i don't want to set time for her because i still don't know if the judge is going to sign the paper or not.


In fact uptown my MIL was the submissive wife with a Bipolar or BPDer H he betrayed her and he was so much worse than my stbxh and she stayed with him 
I can't compare myself to her if she stayed maybe for her it means i should stay and keep my marriage but for me no. My days are different my options are different and I am a different person.... I have stayed more than enough...

I don't care to prove her anything or to let her hear my side of story i know what i did i needed to do it and i don't regret it and at this point i don't care about what anyone elses think or say.... (I grew up fast  ) 

I care to stay in contact with them for my kids only.

Yesterday my D23 called me by phone and told that her grandma likes to visit me to have coffee together.

I told her, few months ago your Grandma told you to tell me that she cut me from her life also did all the big family members...
No body gave me chance to talk....
Now your grandma wants to come to see me today and i also should say yes she is welcomed..
I am not going to say it. I am hurt from all of them. I am not saying i don't want to see her but i need time to think and work on my hurt to be able to see her. It is not when she says no that i stop seeing her and when she says yes i should run for her... If she wants to see me to guilt me or beg me or try to influence my decision about your dad she will be wasting her time and mine. It is not going to work.

Not you nor her or anyone else will make me go back to your dad only if you can give me one thing that makes me want to go back to him only one thing. One more time my D23 failed to give me one reason to go back to him SAD BUT TRUE. 

My D23 was trying to defend them and asked me to walk in their shoes.

I told her i spent my life walking in the others shoes no one tried to walk in mine. I can't blame her for what she did because of the way your dad twisted the reality for her but also no one can blame me for what i did or what i am doing and i have the full right to do it.

My friends i am going to meet with my MIL (MAYBE) but only when i am ready and feel comfortable. (I said maybe because when they know nothing is going to change my mind she will not want to see me).


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## LVS

I am glad i had this conversation with my D23. Only my kids are the ones i care to have them understand.

.....She said she wants to meet with me and her dad to judge who is right and who is wrong.

I told her no i don't want to put you through this. Only one thing you need to believe it that i didn't leave your dad for someone else. I don't care about the rest if you still don't remember the things that were happening and made you leave and move out the things that i handled for 28 years if you still don't understand why i did that!!! One day you will!!! (She knows and understand)

I also said stop letting your dad use you. You have enough stress in your life you don't need additional stress. As long as he is blaming others and using you he is not going to focus on himself and he is not going to try to heal. This is his only chance to get better if he wants to use it. Your dad is trying through you and his mom to force me to go back to him but this is not going to happen he needs to understand that. What he is going to do more? HERE MY D23 SAID *WHAT IS COMING IS GOING TO BE WORSE*

I said stop listening to his threat. He is using it to keep you feeling guilty and wanting to work more to get us back together. Please stop letting him do that to you.... You can't do anything and it is not your responsibilities.
He is responsible of his actions and he needs to deal with any consequences NOT YOU OR ME OR ANYONE ELSE.

I told her I don't care let him try whatever he wants if he wants to hurt me financially maybe he can hurt me but it is not going to bring me back to him.
When i say i prefer to walk bare feet ripped clothes with no food and no shelter all for me are better than going back to your dad, here you should get your answers. Even if i have to die tomorrow it is fine with me, everyday i am living is an extra day is a bonus for me because i was going to die way before now if i stayed with your dad.....

What do you think his next step is going to be??
I know he is paying my health insurance and car insurance and i am expecting him to cut that after the divorce is final and i am trying to be ready for that.


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## turnera

LVS, I am SO proud of you! Your strength is amazing, and I think that, in a few years, your older daughter is going to start emulating you - she just has to finish going through her 'daddy' years first. Good for you for being such a good role model for her. You have done much more than I ever could have.


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## LVS

When things happen and i need to be strong i become even stronger but when things cool down and i live in peace for a while i start thinking to try to admit to go back to him 

I know i am not going to do so but i still have those thoughts in mind.


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## LVS

Today i had to cross the silence and send him a text message.

My brother the monk is going to visit my sister in Holland and he is inviting me on his expenses to go with him and take my S13 with me.

I sent a text message to my H 10 min ago to tell him that and to ask his permission to take my son with me. He still didn't reply.


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## turnera

He'll probably try to use this as a way to make you talk to him. Be prepared.


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## LVS

You said it turnera But he didn't reply

My D23 called me and asked me to meet on Sunday with her and her dad because he had things he wants to talk about.
I said he should ask me to meet and not pressure me. All i asked him is if he give me permission to take your brother with me to visit my sister we don' need to talk about it....

...My D started yelling on the phone saying to leave her alone and stop putting her in between she said she doesn't care for anyone of us she care about her brothers and sister...


What happened is she fought with her dad on the phone...

I told her i am trying to talk directly to your dad do not put yourself in between and do not do what your dad asked you to do. 
She was still yelling and said this is the last time i do this and she asked me, why you just want to leave him and not give him a chance to talk (for real???) (it is like all what i talked to her on Sunday was BS!!!!!)
I told her i already gave him chances to meet together and i didn't like the way things ended so i don't need to give more chances whatever he wants he can send it by letter or text message.

She blamed me and said if you don't want him anymore why you still give him hope 
I said i am not giving him any hope
She said yes when you say he is not going to change it means if he changed you are going back to him and by saying that you are making him work hard on himself to change (BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)( I am tired ) i said no chances and i am not going back to him. She said you still need to talk to him

We ended the conversation because i was tired of arguing i told her that i will talk to her later even she was insisting get an answer right away but i insisted to hang the phone and talk later...


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## turnera

It's really sad that she's turning out this way. I wish she would go to a therapist, because the therapist would set her straight. 

fwiw, she treats you like this because she KNOWS you love her; she can treat you bad and you'll still love her. But a girl her age still needs her dad's approval, and she'll bend over backwards to get little bits of praise from him. She's stuck trying to please him. And she may always stay that way.


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## LVS

I am tired and trying to push the dark thoughts away but still feeling sad and tired of fighting against the flew. I wish I can run away to a place where no one knows me......

I can't think clearly about how to deal with him. It's like nice things should not happen to me. I don't have a lot of time my brother needs to be at my sister's by the end of April.
I don't know till now if I can go because if I don't take my S13 with me I can't leave him any place!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

LVS~

Write him a letter and keep a copy. In the letter tell him that you plan to take S13 on a trip to (City) from (date) to (date) and that S13 will be in phone communication with him every day during the trip. Say that you are INFORMING him of your travel plans and that unless he notifies you in writing with an alternative to taking your S13 with you, that you intend to carry out the plans. 

The End. 

Then if he texts or calls or tries to put your D23 in the middle, he has not notified you in writing. If he writes or emails you that he is willing to watch your son, then that is an alternative you can consider. If he just "disagrees" or "won't allow it" then he has not provided you with an alternative. 

So if he does not write or email, you carry on taking S13 with you...assuming you have "agreement." If he does write with no alternative, print it as documentation, along with your letter and still proceed with the trip. Finally if he writes and says he'll watch S13 then consider that alternative.


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## LVS

WOW!!! This is a good one
I like it  
Thank you Affaircare
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Why didn't I think of that? *smacks forehead*


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## LVS

I sent him the letter yesterday
But when I was reading the divorce papers I read that I should have his written agreement or a court order to b able to take my son out of the state
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

right now I am at the court department for the default hearing trying to not be nervous wish me luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LVS

At the court when swearing to the classic oath the person was talking extremely fast damn I couldn't get one word of what she said
The judge saw me puzzled he closed the folder and asked me for my primary language and he was going to reschedule another day to get a translator for me

Then I said to myself it is my time I am not going to lose it. I said your honor I understood every word you said
I have all my documents in English but when someone speaks too fast I can't get what they say.
The judge opened back my folder and the person said back the swear oath slower than the first time.
*THE JUDGE* asked me couple questions and he *SIGNED THE DIVORCE PAPERS* 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yay!


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## WhereAmI

LVS said:


> At the court when swearing to the classic oath the person was talking extremely fast damn I couldn't get one word of what she said
> The judge saw me puzzled he closed the folder and asked me for my primary language and he was going to reschedule another day to get a translator for me
> 
> Then I said to myself it is my time I am not going to lose it. I said your honor I understood every word you said
> I have all my documents in English but when someone speaks too fast I can't get what they say.
> The judge opened back my folder and the person said back the swear oath slower than the first time.
> The judge asked me couple questions and he signed the papers
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Awesome!


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## Uptown

Congratulations, LVS. Well done!


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## LVS

I was checking the date i started with TAM it was on April 4th last year. 
A whole year has gone. A year full of hope and despair, tears and smiles, happy and sad moments, peaceful and scary times.... 
And here i am surviving all of that and taking a look to the past!!!
Wow!!! How big the change in my life!!! How big the change within me!!!

SO PROUD OF MY ACHIEVEMENTS! SO GLAD OF MYSELF! NO REGRET! NO WALKING BACK! 

THANK YOU MY DEAR FRIENDS


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## turnera

No, thank YOU for sharing with us. I'm so happy for you.


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## LVS

D23 called me with a sad and despair voice she said MOM I AM TIRED!!!
She supposed to come to see us but she doesn't find any motivation to come!
She said dad told me to tell you *he is not going to answer any of your requests. You can't take S13 with you and also you can't go and leave him here. He also said that you need to meet with him, it is a matter of life or death and this meeting should happen today!*

I said don't worry about that just relax, i will answer him but not through you i am going to talk directly to him.

I didn't send anything to him yet. I am not willing to meet with him this way, if it is a matter of life or death he would talk to me and not pressure me through my daughter to meet with him today.


Tomorrow i am going to the legal adviser to ask her advice and to request a court hearing. I should get one soon, not much time left. I am also going to send him a personal delivery letter and make a copy of it and of the email that i sent to him. Hopefully i am going to get a court order to take my son with me in the trip.


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## turnera

I hope you can get your daughter to consider counseling. This is tearing her apart.


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## LVS

I know turnera i wish she listens to me i told her but she didn't want to see a therapist.

I know she will be fine once he stops using her.


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## LVS

Today i went to see the legal adviser at YMCA and told her about what happened she said we can get emergency hearing and get a court order she took all the information needed but i told her to hold on to the paper and i will let her know if i want to request the hearing.

In fact I know i can. I know i have the power. But the power is a weapon in our hands that could be also pointed against us and it is really challenging to decide when not to use it.... 

I don't want to use it. I would rather not go to the trip then to get a court order to take my son with me.
If i am meant to go God will make it possible. 

I am fine and ok with it. And even if i don't go I am happy with my life now with whatever is happening in it. I know he is going to try hard to ruin it but his tries remain baby steps facing my Giant steps 

Joy in my heart at this moment, i can't know the real reason behind it but it is there!!!!


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## turnera

I'm glad to hear it.

How is your side job going? I keep forgetting to go online.


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## LVS

In fact i am working three side jobs.

1st Avon representative 
2nd in an alteration shop (few hours a week)
3rd substitute teacher assistant for kids in special needs (on call)

Doing ok still covering my credit card and i am going to start looking for a better paid and permanent full time job so i can have more time for me and my kids


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## LVS

Got the divorce papers by mail yesterday :scratchhead: i don't know what i should feel i have neutral feelings.


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## turnera

hugs


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## Uptown

Thanks for the update, LVS. Congratulations on getting the divorce papers. When it happened to me, I had strong mixed feelings. But I knew intellectually it was a good thing. I am still so proud of you!!!


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## LVS

So many things happened the last week deserve an update but I couldn't write before now.

1st incident
When my x received the divorce papers he called my brother, the monk, in Canada. 

He talked to him around an hour and half.
*He was mad and he told my brother that he was still hopping that things may get better and i will go back to him but now he is like an injured lion, he is going to do anything to hurt me. Till now he was helping me but now it is the time for me to pay and i have only two weeks to fix things.....
He also said again that i left him for someone else...
*

Now my brother called me and asked me if there is anyway my x can hurt me and he also asked me to notify the police of what he said because he is an angry man and no one knows what he might do. I felt that my brother was scared...

I told him to not be scared because this is my x's way, he was talking the same way when i decided to leave him. and this is all what he can do trying to scare me to force me to go back to him. But i know he is not going to do anything YET (i will feel it if he is going to and i hope i won't get to this point)
What makes me not scared is because we are still married in our church. In my country we don't have civil marriage and i am still his wife in our traditions and religion so he didn't lose hope yet.


_The judge signed the divorce papers on April 7th and they were mailed to us on April 14th. The papers stated that the divorce is effective since 17 February.

Misunderstanding the papers, my x said to my brother that i was knowing the divorce was final long time ago and i didn't say anything to keep benefiting of him paying my car and health insurance. But now he is going to make me pay everything back. lol_


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## LVS

2nd incident

The divorce papers stated that i have the physical custody of my son the visitations are for the father by mutual agreement and if the father needs to take S13 outside the state it should be by written agreement from me or a court order. *(this means i can take my son anywhere i want with or without his permission right ?)* 

Now what happened is on Friday April 22nd my x sent me a letter with my S13 when i picked him up after my work.
The letter said
*I, the undersigned, Name, declare that I give permission to my Ex-Wife Name, to take with her on vacation our son Name to any country overseas at anytime she wants to.
This permission has been given upon her request.
Thanks.*

Signature...
Date....

He also included in his letter $300 !!!!!!!!

Should I comment??!!!! 

What is that mean?! In my analysis i can think in two possibilities 1- As he always does he changed his mind after cooling down and thinking about the situation.
2- In my understanding of him as a self centered person, he may read the papers and understood them very well(or maybe his brother explained them to him  )
Anyway he thought that he is going to need my signature if he needs to take son outside the state and he wanted to make it appear that he is the big and kind heart person so he wrote this letter ( i like to know what do you think?!)

STILL 2 INCIDENTS LOL


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## LVS

3rd incident
A social worker came to my apt, i wasn't there. She left me her business card with a written note to call her back.
I did, and i feel really proud of myself that i was able to say what i said the way i said them 

She said that someone reported that my S13 is failing his class so she needs to talk to him then to me.

I said, I know what we are going through is not easy and seeing his parents getting divorce is affecting him emotionally and maybe this is reflecting on his grades but we can't blame failing school only because of that. He is a teen age boy and in this age lots of hormonal and emotional changes also may affect his grades. I personally took him twice to see a therapist to help him emotionally (SW was surprised she said did you? i said yes she asked me when you did that i said last month and i am willing to take him anytime he needs to. The reason i din't take him again was because he didn't want to go, he said this is a waste of time and he wants to play with friends and/or playstation lol He doesn't want anything to take of his play time, and i din't want to force him to go. But if in anyway after talking to him you feel he needs therapy or anything to help him get better please let me know. (she was agreeing with me with all what i said).

She said she is going to see him at school on Friday 22nd if i don't mind.

I said i don't mind if this won't affect him in any way and if she can i am available on Monday and Tuesday after school time she can come to my apt and see him there.
She said she is going to give me a call back but till now she didn't call.


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## LVS

4rth incident

My D23 called me on Monday April 18 to tell me that my two sisters in-law (My x's sister and his brother's wife)and his cousins wife are inviting me for dinner tomorrow at 7 pm.

I said i am not available i have a meeting tomorrow give me time to think when i can meet with them just to swallow it and think of it and be able to feel comfortable to meet with them.

I don't want to see anyone of his family but i also can't delete them of my life so i need to be in contact with them.

I told my daughter that i can meet with them next week on my days off. so the meeting is going to be on Monday April 25th. 

I have nothing to fear. I don't care if they are trying to be close to me to facilitate the way to be close to my x again to bring us together. If they think this way they are wrong. What i care for is this is how things should be even if we are divorced we should stay in contact with each other family who we share history together. I kiniow this is not going to happen if we stayed divorced but i do what i see it is right to be done.

Other thought maybe they don't want to regret one day because of all what happened and they didn't try to help to bring us together so they want to give another try.

Or maybe he asked them to do that I have no clue about what is going on

If you have any idea please feel free to share.

I am not scared but i am kind of nervous.


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## Uptown

LVS, I agree with your assessments of his current behavior and likely motivations. Divorcing an untreated BPDer is always very ugly. As you said, you already had seen this level of meanness and vindictiveness when you announced your intent to leave him. As to the social worker, I believe you were wise to be so open with her about everything. You've been doing great and have nothing to hide.


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## turnera

I think you've handled every single thing amazingly! I really do admire you.


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## LVS

*3 family members tried to corner me!!!!!*
my sister in law (SIL) my x brother's wife (BW) and his cousin's wife (CW)

After some general talk my sister in law initiated the conversation while having dinner at the restaurant...

I let each one say what she wants to say.

SIL: 9 months has gone and I think it is time to give my brother a 2nd chance...He changed a lot...

CW: You should sacrifice for the family and the kids just little bit of sacrifice and you get together as a whole family....

BW: I've heard about so many couples who got divorced then they found a way to get back together and even remarry...Maybe if you go out with him in presence of the kids or adult of your choice every two weeks maybe you can with time find something with it you can start back your relationship. We are worried about your H that;s why we are talking to you...

I looked at them and i was really disappointed 

I said no one can bring me back to him only if you can give me one reason to go back to him other then my kids I am ready to go back now and start back but give me only one reason (they couldn't say anything)I am ready to contact him and communicate with him at anytime but about our responsibility toward our kids not about our relationship.... 

I also said 28 years were full of sacrifices, i was hopping to be able to stay until my little S13 turns 18 but i couldn't. No one of you was living with me and no one of you knows what was going on inside my house... I didn't chose to leave because i want that I didn't leave him for someone else as he says and think if I am going to live the rest of my life alone without a man it is better than going back to the same life with him. When i choose to leave it was a matter of life or death and i choose LIFE.

SIL said he destroyed you and you destroyed him

I said no he destroyed me and himself. We both were living the same circumstances, I never cursed him blamed him demeaned him disrespected him or anyone of his family but he did all that to me. Also he was drowning himself blaming me for that and asking me to help him. I saved myself from death.


She said the kids are affected with this choice...You choose what is good for you but not for my brother or your kids....

I said* I know this is affecting the kids and when i choose it i wasn't in front of two options GOOD or BAD but i was in front of TWO BAD OPTIONS and i choose the better one for me and my kids....*( I like this answer  )

SIL said I am not asking you to go back to him if you can't think to go back to him as a wife. Maybe you can be roommates (BS lol).....or even friends going out together with the kids as a whole family...
My brother needs help and you are the only one who can help him, he doesn't want anybody else in this world but you. He loves you more than his kids more than anything else...

I said I don't mind to go outing with him and the kids if he can do that for the kids not for me and him.

SIL said He loves you. It's ok if you go out and he wants to talk love words let him talk and you can talk about the kids what is the problem with that? (For real???)	

I said If i can help him it means you can help him so go ahead and do that. I know if he doesn't want to help himself no one can help him not me or you but the truth is he needs a professional help. I can't help him I need to help myself and he needs to help himself...(my friend BW and CW was agreeing with all what I said)

SIL said is that mean you are not going to help him or to try to talk to him 

I said I am ready to talk to him as I said about our responsibilities together. I am also ready to be his friend if he can be and he is ready to be a friend...But he is not!!!

They said why you limited the contact with him to be by letters and not in person 

I said because he doesn't know how to communicate in a respectful level.

SIL said he tried to send you letters but you destroyed them even you destroyed the flowers he sent to you.

I said i don't want love words i told him our contact should be limited to talk about the kids and he didn't respect any of my requests. 

She said He loves you 

I said i don't need love words i heard words for 28 years I heard only words and promises I can read you books about love but love is not only word love is verb. What action he did since i moved out that proves he loves me or he changed NOTHING!!!! He can't respect my simplest requests...

SIL ended the conversation with words of WISDOM before she left she said *LISTEN! IF SOMETHING HAPPENED TO MY BROTHER OR HE KILLED HIMSELF YOU ARE GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DEATH.*


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## LVS

I know all my answers were perfect and for the first time i faced my mean SIL with strength and no fear  I use to feel lack of confidence and self esteem while talking to her because she is the one who seems to know everything and has the best judgment and the wisdom .... But yesterday i felt her messing up so much lol

Now it is about my feelings. I feel bad I want to go back to him but there is nothing that makes me chose to go back...
I feel bad for him but i can't go back to be a nurse for a body and mind sick person.
But i am also scared that something at anytime could happen to him and i will be blamed from the whole family and maybe my kids for what happened
Also i wish there is something i can do to help him i really wish


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## turnera

LVS said:


> SIL ended the conversation with words of WISDOM before she left she said *LISTEN! IF SOMETHING HAPPENED TO MY BROTHER OR HE KILLED HIMSELF YOU ARE GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DEATH.*


Well, at least now you know WHY he has such a monumental sense of entitlement. His FAMILY feeds it to him by the boatload. He simply doesn't know HOW to think about anyone else but himself.

I feel sorry for ALL of them.

I'm really proud of you.


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## turnera

LVS said:


> I know all my answers were perfect and for the first time i faced my mean SIL with strength and no fear  I use to feel lack of confidence and self esteem while talking to her because she is the one who seems to know everything and has the best judgment and the wisdom .... But yesterday i felt her messing up so much lol
> 
> Now it is about my feelings. I feel bad I want to go back to him but there is nothing that makes me chose to go back...
> I feel bad for him but i can't go back to be a nurse for a body and mind sick person.
> But i am also scared that something at anytime could happen to him and i will be blamed from the whole family and maybe my kids for what happened
> Also i wish there is something i can do to help him i really wish


 I would do two things. Ask your IC for a really good book about why he is the way he is, buy it, and mail it to your SIL. And include a letter in which you explain what their father did to you, as well as what her brother did to you. Then ask her to read the book.


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## LVS

What is IC. 

I don't know if she knows what their dad did to her sister when she was 14 years old.
Maybe she needs also to know what her husband did to me. 
Maybe she also needs to know what her uncle did to my oldest son when he was 4 years old  .

Maybe I don't care what she needs to know.


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## turnera

LVS said:


> What is IC.
> 
> I don't know if she knows what their dad did to her sister when she was 14 years old.
> Maybe she needs also to know what her husband did to me.
> Maybe she also needs to know what her uncle did to my oldest son when he was 4 years old  .
> 
> Maybe I don't care what she needs to know.


 Well, if it was me in your shoes, I would definitely tell her now, after this. This is kind of like telling the husband of the woman your husband is cheating with. He deserves to know.

SHE deserves to know what her family is really like. Maybe she'll shut up then. 

Anyway, who cares what she does. But I'd tell her.

IC is independent counselor - your therapist.


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## LVS

I still have obstacles on my way to reach the freedom.
The closest one is the annulment which going to take a big while and to much work.

turnera those facts that we talk about, true, i have them in my hands, true, they gave me so much pain and suffering at time, but, they are now my weapons i will use them when i need them the most and if i don't need them i don't want to use them. 

You are right about what you said sometimes i feel i want to tell every one about the truth but i know it is out of anger i know i have right to do so but making other people hurt or suffer to shut their mouth is not my goal.
I am working to make myself stronger than their words and more powerful than their actions. I don't want to investigate my energy the way they want it there is so many nice things in this world for which i can use my energy and time ...
God is blessing my life i can see that.  and God can see more...

I have some updates i will come back later


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## turnera

This isn't quite the same thing, but when I was in high school, I was VERY poor. My dad left, paid my mom $100 a month for me. She worked for VERY little money, even though she was a registered nurse (long story). She brought in renters to help pay our bills; she did everything she could, to keep our house until I graduated high school.

I got one new outfit a year, at school beginning. Thank God I never grew taller after 7th grade! But aside from the one outfit she could afford, everything else I owned was hand-me-downs from Mom's old friends back in Colorado. I was literally the running joke at our high school, which was where the rich kids went (and I would have been one of them, if Dad hadn't left).

But the result is that, in a school of 4000 kids, I was one of the bottom 50 kids in terms of looking like a street orphan. Add to that no fashion sense, lol, mixing stripes and plaids, I was pretty much the laughing stock of the school.

I knew each and every one of the 'rich' kids who used to make fun of me. I never spoke to them, but they made my life miserable. I suffered for quite awhile, wishing I could make them pay, or just make them 'see' what they were doing to me. I agonized; I considered killing myself; I told no one what was going on (my mother and brother were virtually absent the whole time anyway, lost in their OWN problems).

Until one day, I saw these same kids, girls and boys alike, teasing a retarded boy. They were rolling pennies across the lunch quad area, and he was running after the pennies, to catch them. And they were laughing at him. I think I said something to them; don't really remember; maybe I just WISH I had stood up for him.

But at that point, I took a good look around at the people who so desperately wanted to tear me down, as they did him. And you know what I saw? 

Desperation.

To fit in, to make the right choice, to be popular, most of all to NOT be laughed at like the others of us were.

And I felt sorry for them. 

I realized I'd rather own my own integrity, knowing I'd done nothing wrong, and be shunned, than to be one of them.

After that, I was free.

Never had the urge to 'set them straight' again. Like the running joke of the high school nerds, 'one day you'll work for ME.' THEN things come out right in the end.

You'll come out right in the end, LVS. I know it. And I am still proud of you.


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## LVS

Your story is very insightful thanks for sharing


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## LVS

Now i have some updates

He called me on Thursday afternoon i was at work he left me a voice message asking me to meet with him to talk about our kids future and things we need to do for them. Friday morning not hearing from me mostly because i had work he called back and also i was in my side job he left me VM asking me to meet with him because it is very important to talk about our kids' future and now we can meet since i achieved all what i want and he is not related to me in any way anymore.....

I sent him text message telling him that i am at work and when i can i will let him know when we can talk


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## LVS

Saturday i was at work too Sunday is my day off and i wanted to enjoy it with my kids without hearing his voice but when i came back home i sent him a text to call me

He called me and asked why we can't meet i said because i don't need to meet with him alone and i don't feel comfortable too so we can talk on the phone the things that he needs to say without the presence of someone else...

Our conversation trapped me for an hour and a half until i was tired i told him i need to go and i ended the conversation when he was still wanting to talk. His voice was calm all the time.

He spent the first 15 minutes talking without breathing lol 
what he needs??? 

He was saying how painful his life is and how much he is suffering and i can't blame him for what he said or did all this time because of what i did to him and i promised him of things but i didn't keep my promise ( i asked him what) he said i promised him to take a break 6 months from one another then go back and give him another chance but 9 months has gone and i didn't keep my promise....
He said he can't live anymore with his mom nor his sister nor his brother (his brother and sister are as crazy as he is lol) and also he was asked by his family to find an apt to move out. He said they are kicking me out and i am done of living with them... nothing is good in my life..... I only dream of only one thing which is to be back to my wife i wish this is going to happen one day even if you marry another person i won't lose hope..... i am not asking you now to come back to me i know you decided not to and you have right to do that i can't blame you....


What he wants is to rent a bigger apartment and live together and he will do all the work around the house from cooking to cleaning and washing clothes... just to be close to the kids because they need him he will stay inside the bedroom when i am home he won't let me see him i am free to do whatever i want to do and we can live divorced under the same roof he said isn't that what you asked me for before you moved out?
His tone was changing from trying to convince me to almost begging me.....

My response was.

I work with aggressive kids one child was throwing tantrums breaking things .... I was dealing with him and promised him to take him outside to cool down if he get himself together and take a shower because he pooped on himself, he refused and continued for a while doing the same things i had to assist him and put him under the shower with his clothes on, he showered and got dressed and came to me smiling and told me i took shower can you take me outside? I said no because my offer was if you did what you supposed to do when you were asked but since you were forced to do that i can't give you award 

I gave him this story so he understands what i mean and i said i didn't lie to you when i asked you for separation i was ready to try again but you didn't accept and did worse than before it and when i moved out it was for ever....

I also said to live in one apt with you is not going to happen

He said that i have only 3 options either to live in one apt together or to rent an apt and have the kids with him or to tell him go away and live alone.

I said to live together is not an option to have the kids living with you i will agree if this is for their well being but i know it is not so it is not an option too
I can give you an option i can move to another city where the rents are less expensive the reason i stayed in this city is to keep the kids close to you but if you need to rent an apt we can look to a cheaper area he said it is not good for our son who has his friends here i said there is something more important for him to be close to his dad he will move to another city and make new friends don't worry about that if you make it easier for him it won't affect him......

I ended the conversation and he was still asking the same thing and asking me to think i said i don't need to think you need to think about my options and What i can do also is something i have to do it now since we are divorced i am going to pay my car insurance and health insurance which are $200 so you can find apt and rent it.

I said bye but he said we need to talk back and i hanged up. 

Ugh!! so tired but not frustrated i ended the conversation when i asked for it and i stopped him from talking about things i don't want him to talk about... and for most i didn't meet with him in person.  but next time i won't let him talk this long i am really tired.


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## turnera

That was a great step. You both were calm and trying to explain your side and he now understands you better. And it's great that you offered to move to another location to help him. I think you may eventually reach a place where you can deal with each other. After, as the example you gave, he understands the rules.

Good work.


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## LVS

lol turnera do you believe he would?
He is not going to move from this city i know he is manipulating to make me agree to live with him. He is going to try to find another way to convince me.
He will never change NEVER He only change when he is forced to but for certain time he will always find a way to manipulate and try to get things on his way....


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## turnera

You say he will never change, but here's how I see it. Unless someone is just mentally unstable, and I don't think he is, he won't just keep beating his head on a wall, day in and day out, for the rest of his life. Eventually the swollen head will cause him to stop, and he'll give up.


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## turnera

He's too used to being able to manipulate you, it's too fresh in his head. That's the culture he grew up in, and he just can't fathom that you've grown, moved on, from that culture.

But he'll figure it out if you keep rejecting it. May take a year or two more, but he'll get it eventually.


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## LVS

It is easier for him to find someone to manipulate than to hold responsibility of his actions and do the hard work to change.

And he would never change if he is not forced to. It is true i am forcing him to change and he is fighting not to. Manipulation and controlling people is deep in his blood he breathed it since childhood no matter how much he is forced to change any time he find a common ground he will be back to the old ways.

Let's say after a year or so as you said he changed and i got back to him. He will be respecting my boundaries for a while but what if something happened to me maybe got ill and wasn't able to protect myself or force my boundaries. Do you think he is not going to make me pay all the hard time that i gave him?


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## LVS

He called me yesterday i was leaving to my therapist appointment I didn't pick up the phone, he called my daughter she told him i don't know where is mom maybe at therapist. After an hour and a half i was on my way back when my daughter called me to see why i am late (this is because he called back and pretended that he is worried about me why i am still not back yet) 

After i came back i was doing some work around the house when he called i told D18 to tell him i can't talk and i am busy he was pressuring to talk and asked when i can call back because it is important to talk to me. huh

I took the phone and said that i am tired and i won't be able to talk. He said he knows i am tired and that's why he wants to be with me to help me he said are you happy with your life like that? and i said yes thank you don't worry about me....
I asked why he needs to talk we have nothing to talk about and he is the one who should decide which option he wants he said no we need to talk because he needs to tell me why the options that i gave him are not good .....
I said i gave you options i am not changing what i said and you need to chose what you want to do
He said no we need to talk about that and let you know why it is not going to work and we need to talk asap.
I said write them by letter i don't have time to talk on the phone he started complaining why i don't have time for him anymore, 28 years we lived together and now i don't have time to talk on the phone!!!! I said yesterday you kept me an hour and a half on the phone i have so many things to do other than talking on the phone he said he needs only 15 min i said i will see tomorrow if i can find a time to talk ....

It is really tiring, he is going to find a way to keep pressuring me and when his ways are not going to work he is going to switch back to the mean side....


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## turnera

I think that, after awhile, he'll realize you're never coming back, and he'll stop pushing so hard. It may be another six months, another year, even 2 or 3. No matter what, your son will be out of high school in a few years, and you'll have absolutely no excuse to ever talk to him again.

LVS, no offense, but you're wavering again.

Six months ago you wouldn't speak to him AT ALL. 

Now you're letting him worm his way back into your life. 

YOU are giving him hope.

Stop it. Tell your family you will no longer speak to him at all.


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## LVS

turnera now i know i shouldn't let him call me but i had to be open to communicate with my kids father. I don't see this as wavering.

We supposed to talk for 15 min but he never stopped his arguig i had to hang up on him after 50 minutes

He was talking and talking. He
wants me to be roommates saying that we are still married in church and the the divorce is just a useless piece of paper he will never let anyone else take his place or share my life.

I said are you threatening me he said no but i am still your husband and if you get someone else it is cheating......

I told him don't worry if i am going to get someone else he will be in a legal way and even if i spent all my life without a man i am not going back to you

Each time i was trying to end the conversation he was starting back talking and talking
He started talking about if something happened to me who is going to help me?
I told him even if i will be without food or shelter it is gong to be easier than going back to live with you whether you admit it or not this is how you made me feel.

He was back blaming me for my decision after 28 years of marriage and how i am living him now and not caring for what is happening to him, his brother is pressuring him to leave his mother's apartment and he is spending nights awake to not share the room with his second brother......

I said if your family is kicking you out it is not my responsibility it is something you did to them. He said he is not getting along with his sister and brother but not because of that it is because he is not the same person i left him and he is not enjoying anything in life not sharing the family outings and staying all the time locking himself in his room.

He said that he did everything nice to me and i am turning my back to him he could give me hard time with the divorce case but he didn't, he should have listened to his brother.
And he asked me what is your last answer i said i am not changing my answer
He said so Sunday I am going to meet with you and the kids and tell them your decision for kicking me outside the city away of them and they will know the truth and you will hear there opinion about that
I said Sunday i am going out with my kids i don't want anything to mess up my day
When we come back if you want to meet with them you can but i am not going to be with you
He said because you are scared to face your kids because you are wrong
I said i pray for you to feel comfort and happiness and take care of yourself the only thing i can do as i said is moving to a cheaper area there is no other option no way to live in the same house together and i need to go now this is the last time we talk over the phone if you need to tell me anything you can write letters sorry i am going to hang up bye.

I hang up the phone he called back i didn't answer. He called my cellphone and left me a voice message badmouthing for how i hang up the phone while he still talking he said shame on me to do that and disrespect him. He ended his message by saying: Know that i will never leave you in peace.


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## turnera

Too bad he spent the last year learning NOTHING.

You handled it fine, just please don't take any more calls.

And DOCUMENT what he said about never letting anyone else have you and never leaving you in peace; in fact, print it out and take it to the police. That IS the talk of a deranged person, so you are in danger. The police need to have a record of it. If they don't, anything he does will be a 'first offense' and he'll get his wrist slapped.


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## LVS

I have it voice message and it is in our mother language.
He is a person who use words more than actions but i cant trust him he may flip at any time
He is still hopping so i still have time of peace
I guess he will stay hopping until i get the annulment from church

By the way i talked to the authorities in church and i started filling the questionnaires for the petition of annulment i know it is going to take long time but they are helping me to not go back to him they also told me to report to the police what he is saying.
My psychotherapist said the same thing.


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## turnera

Well, then, you know it's what you have to do. Today?


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## LVS

I mentioned it before when he sent me the agreement letter to travel with my son anywhere overseas for vacation he also sent me 300$ I was trying to find a way to send them back to him because it was late to give his agreement and i cancelled my visit to my sister.

When we spoke on the phone i mentioned that and i told him i am also giving back your money because i cancelled my visit and i won't need it if you want to rent apartment you will need them.

Now after the way our conversation ended and he got mad because i hanged up the phone so he didn't call me or text me back but he sent me a message through my D18 to send him his money back and His wedding ring.(the ring that we wore since our wedding. On our 25th anniversary i bought new set of rings

i told my D18 why you are asking me that, he should ask me.

I sent him a text message

My message
"Hi no need to use the kids i will send you your money"

His reply
"And my real marriage ring, and don't order me anymore what to do or how to act teach yourself and see who's abusing the kids. I know you won't."

I had urge to reply but i did not.

Now here what i am thinking to do
I am not turning back his money because he sent them to me to spend them on me and my son no matter what were his intentions.

He is saying i am abusing my kids
He said i am working two jobs so i am not finding time for them 4 days a week and not cooking for them.

I have the physical custody of my son, visitations are for the father by mutual agreement, since he is not a person i can trust i am going to send him a letter asking him to write me when he is going to care for him and how. I will let him know everything we need to deal with from now on will be by written agreement.

So i will be taking all my rights for the kids and giving him his rights. I was doing good to him and mostly to the kids by not setting limits but not with the way he is acting.

What do you think any thoughts?


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## LVS

turnera said:


> Well, then, you know it's what you have to do. Today?


I am thinking to contact the Social Worker instead of contacting the Police. What do you think?


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## LVS

I know there is no hurry but i like when something like that happens
and i would never prevent beautiful things from happening to me.
This is my new thread i like to share it with you

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/dating-scene/25221-heart-should-not-skip-any-bit.html#post315079


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## turnera

I would give him back his money. It's not worth your life being made even more miserable by giving him more ammunition, just for $300.


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## LVS

It has being a while i didn't update you. Sorry for that.
He made the meeting with our kids on the mothers day he said all kind of bad things......
He never talked to me after that
This week my kids told me that he moved to an apartment in another city around 15 minutes away.

I am having a peaceful time till now

I have an appointment in my church Friday June 3rd to discuss the annulment process
hmmmm this is going to take long long time.


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## Uptown

LVS, thanks so much for the update. I'm glad to hear that he moved further away and has not tried to contact you since Mothers Day. I am hoping your peaceful time will soon return. Take care, courageous lady.


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## turnera

Me, too.


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## LVS

Long time has gone i am still enjoying the peace my ex moved to an apartment but not as i was told it is so close to mine but he is not bothering me anymore.

My kids are doing well and got adjusted to the new life.i am in a good relation with all of them.

As for the annulment it is a long procedure. I feel impatient about it especially with the presence of the new guy in my life. But i need to wait for the annulment to be finalized to be able to continue my life in the right path.

This guy is amazing i feel so blessed, in fact we are both blessed with each other.

I still have the fear to be falling into another abuser especially they all look alike in the beginning. I am taking things slowly. And keeping my guards on. Time will tell. 
But i can feel he is more like me than my ex. We are mirroring each other. We have a lot of things in common which made us fall in love.
I already have another thread about him 
Heart Should not Skip any Bit 

Any advice my friends is welcomed!


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## Uptown

LVS, thanks for the update to let us know you are getting along so well with your children -- and with a new man in your life! I am very happy for you.


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## turnera

I was just wondering about you. Thanks for letting us know!


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## LVS

New update

My ex sent me a recording message through my D18.

Shouldn't I hear it? Maybe! But i did!
45 min and 26 seconds i had to take three breaks while listening to it to be able to finish it.

He was weeping with sadness accompanied by a sentiment of guilt.

Begging me to give him another chance to meet with him like new couple who are trying to know each other.
He said If you say you don't want me it is going to kill me.
and he said that his life was complete when we were together even with the worse things that was happening it was much better than now.

He also said you have right with everything you did even it took you long time to take your decision i can't picture how much you handled and i never blame you for what you did even if you had other men in your life after you left me or even before i don't blame you after all what i did to you.

He said he won't be able to meet another woman it is only me in his life he tried to register on eHarmony, the dating site, but he couldn't picture another woman taking my place.

He also said no one is happy now not your family nor mine or our kids not even me. Is what happened between us deserve the price everyone are paying?

You and my kids are my whole being, my personality, my soul, my heart. I am nothing without you. Without you i am without soul without ambition or any desire i am living just counting days.

My only wish when i am on the bed of death is to see you that day with my kids around me and close my eyes while you are looking at me and smiling this is my dream.

My birthday is coming soon the only gift that i look for is a phone call from you to greet me and i don't ask you for more than that.


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## LVS

*28 years of marriage what ca i do?*

It seems i had long time of peace hmmmm
How do i feel now? Angry and mad and feeling sad!!!!!

My heart was sore and crying but my eyes was dry refusing to cry. 

I felt angry because i don't want to hear anything from him and i don't want to hear his voice crying and feeling this bad ( i know he is not playing games this is his true feelings). And I am angry at myself because i shouldn't hear the message.

I feel so sad for the way he is feeling and also the way he is begging me to go back to him.

I don't want to feel guilty for not going back to him and i don't want to feel guilty for being in love with another man. That's why i am mad at myself because i have this feeling of guilt.

Any suggestion now what is the best to be done?


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## Uptown

LVS, that recording is simply heart breaking. Thank God my BPDer exW never sent me anything like that. As a caregiver, there is no way you could hear it without feeling the guilt return -- guilt that you worked so hard to get rid of.

My advice -- and what I do myself to hold the undeserved guilt at bay -- is to read about BPDers so I remind myself of what I'm really dealing with. The reality, with a BPDer, is that he cannot stand to live by himself. He has an unstable and fragile sense of who he is. He therefore needs a stable person -- any stable person -- around him at all times to center and ground him. Otherwise, he lacks focus and is shooting off in all directions. 

Yet, your returning to him would be a lose-lose situation. As soon as you again provide that stability he desperately needs, he will start feeling "controlled" again. Moreover, you will again start triggering his two great fears (abandonment and engulfment).

He is so miserable now because he doesn't have you around to do the self soothing -- forcing him to learn how to do that himself. He doesn't have you around to be the "perpetrator" -- forcing him to do without the validation he so desperately wanted for his false self image of being "the victim," always the victim. He doesn't have you around to be the "trash can" -- forcing him to start taking responsibility for his own actions instead of disposing of all the guilt and bad feelings in you. As we discussed over a year ago, his only chance of confronting his issues and growing up is for you to stay away -- allowing him to suffer the logical consequences of his own actions.

Like you are experiencing with your exH, I find it painful to hear about my BPDer exW. Her breast cancer returned four months ago after a ten year remission. She had to have a double mastectomy. Now she is going through chemo and has lost all of her hair (as I did 15 years ago when I was fighting cancer myself). She is having to do all that by herself, even though she still lives in the same metro area with me. I stopped talking to her about three years ago even though she wanted to keep talking to me on the phone. 

We saw each other, for the first time in over two years, last December. We both flew (separately) to the Midwest, where we sat at the same table at my grandson's wedding. A week later she phoned me, asking to be friends again. I reminded her that she believes I am a violent man and that I make up new lies nearly every week. I explained, as I had done nearly three years earlier, that she was incapable of trusting me. And I explained that, absent trust, a friendship was impossible. Indeed, that is why her two best friends had left her in recent years, telling her to not call back.

Staying away to let her heal -- allowing her to experience the logical consequences of her own behavior -- is the greatest gift that I can give her at this point. It makes me feel sad to hear of her travails. But I do not feel guilty or obligated any more. I simply know too much about BPD traits to be vulnerable to that guilt ever again. Likewise, you can get rid of it by reading again about BPD -- perhaps reading a good book or reading what we discussed at the beginning of this thread. Please stay the course, LVS. You are finally having a good life, one that you are so deserving of.


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## turnera

So sorry. After the first couple of sentences, I was thinking, 'oh, he's starting to get it!'

And then he kept talking, and all the same old me me me me me started coming out. 

Like Uptown says, give him the gift of silence. HELP him get better by refusing to be his crutch.


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## LVS

Thank you Uptown for the reminder about BPDers and i agree with all what you said

I followed your advice i gave him the gift of silence i didn't reply to his VM or call him on his birthday for the reasons you mentioned and also to not give him a chance to talk to me more.

Now i am leaving to my country for a visit to my family and i am blessed because my brothers paid the tickets for me and my S13 and my expenses over there.

Now he told my son that in order for him to let my son go he needs to take him personally to the airport to say goodbye to him.

hmmmm You know what that means....


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## turnera

Does that mean that you have to have his written permission to take your son?


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## LVS

Well i already have it he gave me this written agreement long time ago when i was planning to go to visit my sister and he gave it to me to show me that he is good and he has good intentions. He mentioned in it that he gives me permission to take my son with me on vacation to any country overseas at anytime i want.
This was dated on April 22nd but the way he said means i have the permission to take my son anytime i want RIGHT??


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## LVS

What i meant by if you know what that means , it means he want to see me and talk to me...

Anyway i do expect him going over there while i am visiting. Don't you think so?? This is his last hope to catch me when i am with my family to try to pressure me to go back to him. But i don't care if he did i will prepare my family to that in case it happened.


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## turnera

Yes, you have the right to take your son no matter what he says, if you have it written and signed. I know he just wants to see you. But you don't have to honor his wishes to see you off.

How will he afford to go over there?


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## Uptown

LVS, is there any risk of him preventing you from leaving your home country with your son once you all three are there? That is, could he declare residency there and ask the government to prevent you from taking your son back to the USA?


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## LVS

Uptown I asked my brother the monk to check for me because i know that this use to exist in the past so he asked a judge in the spiritual court in my country and the only way my ex can prevent me from leaving is by the presence of a court case and i should be informed about it but to do so now it takes time and the court close all the August month and i will be back before the mid of it so he won't be able to stop me.

As for my son i guess it is the same but even if he can my ex won't do it because all his kids will turn against him and he is counting on their support. Plus my son would not want to stay over there. My ex doesn't have anybody there to support him and no job and he has to come back here so this is not an option for him.


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## LVS

turnera said:


> Yes, you have the right to take your son no matter what he says, if you have it written and signed. I know he just wants to see you. But you don't have to honor his wishes to see you off.
> 
> How will he afford to go over there?


The problem is my son wants his dad to take him to the airport.

About him going over there, what he said to my kids is that he would go if he was able to sell our apartment over there but if he wants to go he will get the money maybe from his brother but i think he has it hmmmm


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## LVS

He told my daughter to ask me if i accept to go with him to the airport instead of letting my daughter drive all the way down

He said he won't bother me or talk to me anything

hmmmmmm should i accept a part inside me say yes to not let my daughter drive over there but another part doesn't want to meet with him


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## turnera

You know the answer. He is not trustworthy and he has not changed a bit. He will corner you, browbeat you, and have you in knots before you even get to the airport. He may 'intend' to not talk to you, but do you seriously think he could control himself? I don't.


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## LVS

I spoke with my S13 and told him you spend those couple days with your dad and you say goodbye to him on the Tuesday morning and you leave with us

Let's see tomorrow what is the reaction.

And no i don't trust him also my experience with him doesn't make me feel comfortable to to go with him or even send my son with him


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## turnera

So your daughter is supposed to pick up your son from his dad's? What happens if he refuses to let his son leave with your daughter? Will you have to go over there to get him? Don't think he hasn't thought of that. I urge you not to be in the situation of your son being with your ex up to the plane flight.


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## LVS

i would call 911 i have his written agreement to take my son also i have the physical custody so he can't do that


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## turnera

Ok, as long as you have a plan. When is the date?


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## LVS

Need to leave to the airport at 6 am around 6 hours from now.
He agreed with resentment to not go to the airport so the morning my D18 will go to pick up her brother and we will leave together...


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## turnera

Good for you! I hope you guys have a great time!


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## Uptown

Me too. Have a great vacation with your family in your home country, LVS!


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## LVS

Hello friends hope everything is well with you

I had a wonderful time in my country with my parents my son and friends
I had time also to let everyone know that i am going on with my decision and no way to go back to my ex
My son kind of admitting the situation

I came back to USA on the 13th of August

Everything is well with me. I had a meeting with my kids the three of them and told them there is no way for me to go back to my ex and i am moving on with my life.


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## turnera

So glad to hear it! And I'm glad it turned out ok.


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## Uptown

Welcome back to the States, LVS!!! Thanks so much for giving us an update. After about seven weeks, I was starting to get concerned. I therefore am very pleased, like Turnera, to hear that you had an enjoyable trip and got back safely with your son.


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## LVS

Thank you turnera and Uptown i so much appreciate your quick reply and i apologize for the delay in updating my thread, thank you for your concern Uptown and you have right to feel concern because you know my ex's illness.

I couldn't finish my post earlier so i will add more updates about my ex.


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## LVS

My ex is not leaving me alone still trying to bring me back to him

He is trying to show me how much he loves me and how much he changed and that he wants another chance

He called me last week asking me for a meeting together, the reason i picked up the phone was because i didn't know he was calling i told him no way to talk about us anymore our relationship should be limited to what concerns our kids. He was trying to convince me to go back to him and give him another chance. After a while keeping me on the phone i had to hang up on him. Since then he keeps calling me and leaving voice messages saying that he needs to talk to me about us or/and about my kid. Of course i don't need to talk to him so i never answered his request.

two days ago he called me many many times but i didn't answer
He finally left me a voice message asking me to answer his calls and that he has a very important thing to deal with 
concerning our daughter i didn't answer him bc i don't believe him

Yesterday he called me several times then he said if i don't answer he will come to see me, i sent him a text asking him to email me or sen me a letter if it is regarding our kids
but what he did is coming to my door ringing the bell from 8 30 am till around 1 pm. I called his brother and his brother called him to ask him to leave but he refused saying he doesn't care let me call the police and let them come he will resist them until they take him to jail if this is what i want for him and for my kids with my selfishness. also he said that my therapist is liberal and the people who are supporting me did brain wash and i am not knowing what i am doing and in the future i will regret it so he is going to help me to correct my decision and he is going to force me to go back to him.

After trying several time to contact him my ex brother in law failed to make him leave so He asked me if i call my ex to see what he needs or if i don't want i can call the police and he can't blame me. Since i want to avoid calling the police as much as i can i called him and asked him what he needs and he said he is going to give me one week to decide what i need to do and after this week if i wasn't positive to go back to him he will be back calling me and knocking my door.....


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## turnera

And then....you WILL call the police. 

Come on, LVS. You know the drill. 

Call the police.


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## Uptown

I agree with Turnera, LVS. He shows no evidence of working hard to change himself. He only wants his "soothing object" back. It's time for him to learn how to do self soothing, something that most of us start learning at age five.


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## PBear

I don't know the whole back story, but I'd say you should have called the police. It's HIS choice to make the scene, not yours. He's doing the same thing as a cheating spouse who blames the other one for their cheating, or an abusing spouse who blames the other spouse because they made them made. He's the one being a selfish jerk.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

He's depending on your being 'soft,' a woman, and not creating a fuss. He's intending to intimidate you into seeing him. Teach him otherwise.

And no, he hasn't changed one bit. He's still saying the exact same things he said a year ago when you left.


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## LVS

Thank you Uptown turnera and PBear i agree i should have called the police but i felt he is pushing me to this point to make me look the monster in front of my family and kids.

He said he is going to give me one week, i will see after this week if he kept black mailing and harassing me i have no choice than getting the restraining order and/or calling the police


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## turnera

Calling the police when someoe harasses you does NOT make you a bad person. Do this: Call everyone whose opinion you care about, tell them what he did and tell them that you considered calling the police but didn't out of respect for him and not wanting him to get in trouble. Tell them that he has threatened to come back and do it again, and tell them TODAY that, if he does it again, you will have no choice but to call the police.

That way, you are giving everyone an opportunity to talk to him ahead of time and warn him away. If he continues, HE will look like the bad person.


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## LVS

Today after calling me three times and i wasn't answering his phone calls he left me this voice message

"I respected you enough and gave you enough chances if you don't answer me by tonight to tell me when and where we are going to meet the meeting is going to happen whether you agreed or not. I won't wait for you anymore to decide as you want and whenever you want because your big head won't stay big. I won't tell you how, when or where but it is going to happen and against your will because it is a matter of life or death your big stubborn head won't help you, I don't want say bigger words. But your big stubborn head, the head that you got from your family doesn't work until it is broken.
Forget about your therapist forget about Obama and America because even if they all are going to support you what i want to do i am going to do it. For your sake you need to reply. No matter what you decide we are going to meet and after this meeting either we live in peace or we live in war and we destroy one another, you have time till this evening to answer me or it is going to happen against your will even if you want to bring Obama in person he won't be able to do anything for you."


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## LVS

Tomorrow is going to be a tough day. I know what i suppose to do especially after his voice message and i am still not wanting to do it 
I know i should call the police or get a restraining order but something in me still refusing to do it unless i am pushed till the edges. 

My friends I am an analytical person (I know sometimes we should not analyse so much we should just act) But i just need to do this analysis. Will you please help me to analyse my situation?!

In my mind lots of questions and hesitation. Why this hesitation is there when i know what is right to be done?

MY BOUNDARIES are invaded what am I waiting for???

What am I AFRAID OF????

Let's say i am pushed till the edges, would i care and would i still be worried about anything else? My answer is NO!!!! So why wouldn't I just do it now???????

Is it all about culture??? Or there is another reason?

I know if someone else is in my situation what i would advice them. I know if one of my beloved is hurt with this i won't wait to act?

But my beloved are hurt in indirect way in emotional way would calling the police or getting a restraining order hurt them more???

What are the negative sides of getting a restraining order?


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## turnera

What does your therapist say?


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## LVS

turnera my therapist says as everyone say as i also believe, that i should do is to call the police and get restraining order

I have another thread and instead of post it back here if you don't mind to reply on my other thread

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/31934-how-can-i-just-do.html#post430758


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