# Female viewpoint on porn needed...



## husbandinwaiting

I need to understand female view on porn. My W considers it the same as a physical relationship, and has used it to justify inappropriate behavior. Please help me understand. Need to figure out how to get past this.


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## mablenc

Well, are you seeing live web and interacting? That would be cheating to me. Are you having sex with her or is the porn now your sex partner ? That would be negligence to me. or are you once in a while watching it? Are you including her? How would you feel if she was watching porn?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ASummersDay

Female views on porn vary widely.


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## husbandinwaiting

I saw porn as a coping mechanism, for a disconnect in our relationship. I want to be close to my wife, I want to have relations with her. She drifted away and shut me out, and denied physical contact, apparently as a response to porn use. Our reactions to each other compounded. I believe it was a choice, I've turned it off like a switch--unless it's just some kind of fear response. 

I failed to understand how deeply it hurt her. Trying to get some understanding of what she/we need to do to get through this.


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## always_alone

husbandinwaiting said:


> I saw porn as a coping mechanism, for a disconnect in our relationship. I went to be close to my wife, I want to have relations with her. She drifted away and shut me out, and denied physical contact, apparently as a response to porn use. Our reactions to each other compounded. I believe it was a choice, I've turned it off like a switch--unless it's just some kind of fear response.
> 
> I failed to understand how deeply it hurt her. Trying to get some understanding of what she/we need to do to get through this.


Porn can trigger a number of things in women, including body issues (am i attractive enough?), sexual confidence (am i good enough in bed? Do i please him? Do they please him more?), trust in the relationship (does he want them more than me? Does he want out? Does he fantasize that he is with someone else when he is with me? What else is he doing that I don't know about?). It can also impact respect (how can he use women that way? Is that all he cares about?)

Only she can really tell you what she needs to move past it. At the very least, i would guess that she needs to know just how committed you are to her, and how you truly feel about her.


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## husbandinwaiting

I have no credibility with her right now. I have changed course, but there hasn't been enough time to prove anything. I think your list plus some. Her reaction is so strong, makes me think there is something deeper. I thought it was a secondary issue at first. All I can get out of her is I don't know what my feelings are. Which I think is crap.


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## Anon Pink

Well you guys drifted apart and instead of trying to work it out with her, you turned to porn. This hurt her even more.

Personally, I have no problems with porn viewing. I watch it alone, sometimes with my husband, sometimes he watches it alone. 

You posted in the addiction section which leads me to think your porn viewing was so consistent it became a serious problem,which lead to further disconnect.

Women need to be and feel connected with their partner and THEN they want sex. Men need sex to really feel connected. Catch 22 eh?

So what do you want? A connection with your wife means you have to stop viewing porn until that connection is rebuilt and rock steady. Maybe MAYBE after that happens you two might wish to watch porn together. But until then, each time to watch porn, you hurt your wife and drive her further away. So again, what do you want?


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## always_alone

husbandinwaiting said:


> I have no credibility with her right now. I have changed course, but there hasn't been enough time to prove anything. I think your list plus some. Her reaction is so strong, makes me think there is something deeper. I thought it was a secondary issue at first. All I can get out of her is I don't know what my feelings are. Which I think is crap.


Why don't you believe her? You want her to believe you, don't you? Why not give her that same consideration?

She probably really doesn't have a clue how she's feeling. My guess is that she's just had everything she believed in about you and your relationship called into question. How would you feel if the same happened to you?

FWIW, time, consistency, and open communication can all help in healing.


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## that_girl

For some people, discovering your mate has turned to porn is a HUGE betrayal. It changes how you see that person...someone whom you once had on a pedestal.

Sometimes porn triggers past shet like abuse and/or cheating in other relationships.

Sometimes it's insecurity on the woman's part, like a poster above posted.

Sometimes, it's just considered dirty and gross. Some people, like myself, think porn is gross. I see no value in it....random people having sex (and they usually don't know each other much ...it's a job they are doing with camera lights and bad writing and fake orgasms...)

And sometimes, it's just the knowledge that when she drifted away, you let her--- and turned to porn.


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## AnnEMoose

As a woman who considers herself open-minded and not prude, I couldn't help but feel sad when I first found my husband watching porn. For me, it wasn't that I found it degrading or disgusting. I wanted to be everything he needed. I didn't want him to need porn.


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## anonim

husbandinwaiting said:


> I need to understand female view on porn. My W considers it the same as a physical relationship, and has used it to justify inappropriate behavior. Please help me understand. Need to figure out how to get past this.


There is a lot of information missing. 

Did she find out you looked at porn, if so how?

If you do look at porn, why?

What is her issue with porn?

What is her inappropriate behavior?

You know, and your wife knows, that porn is not equivalent to putting your penis in another woman's vagina.
You need to let her know, that you know, that she knows its not equivalent. If she tells you it is, put your penis in another woman's vagina and see if she feels the same about it.


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## that_girl

Wow. That's rather rude.

Cheating isn't just physical.


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## richie33

Is watching porn equal to cheating?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScarletBegonias

AnnEMoose said:


> As a woman who considers herself open-minded and not prude, I couldn't help but feel sad when I first found my husband watching porn. For me, it wasn't that I found it degrading or disgusting. I wanted to be everything he needed. I didn't want him to need porn.


I think I relate the most to this viewpoint about porn.It's seems the most reasonable thing to feel regarding such a hot button topic.


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## ScarletBegonias

richie33 said:


> Is watching porn equal to cheating?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Depends on who you're asking.For many people it's the same as emotionally cheating.


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## ozymandias

I think most of the women that try to conflate the use of static, non-interactive pornography with real infidelity are troubled because of the power it takes away from them in the sexual marketplace.

For a cartel to really be effective, everyone has to play along.


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## ScarletBegonias

ozymandias said:


> I think most of the women that try to conflate the use of static, non-interactive pornography with real infidelity are troubled because of the power it takes away from them in the sexual marketplace.
> 
> For a cartel to really be effective, everyone has to play along.


For some women,yes I can see this being the case.Many ladies are very drunk on the power of the p***y. 

But for the average nice girl,it's just a case of wanting to be the only source of her man's fantasies bc that's what makes her feel safe and attractive.


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## anonim

that_girl said:


> Wow. That's rather rude.


How so?


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## ozymandias

ScarletBegonias said:


> For some women,yes I can see this being the case.Many ladies are very drunk on the power of the p***y.
> 
> But for the average nice girl,it's just a case of wanting to be the only source of her man's fantasies bc that's what makes her feel safe and attractive.


Agreed. I think that's normal and probably represents the majority of women who are ideological troubled by pornography. That said, I think we are essentially describing the same phenomenon. Of course it makes a woman feel "safe" to limit her man's sexual options and be "the only source". To not be is a significant loss of power.

My point was, I think that the subset of those women who are the most histrionic about that loss - the ones who insist that watching a pre-recorded video of people having sex is the moral equivalent of physical infidelity - are probably not using that power in good faith. For them, I suspect that the "power of the p***y" as you call it is the only tool they have in their toolbox and they are loathe to see it's usefulness diminished.


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## that_girl

anonim said:


> How so?


His wife can feel however she wants on the subject.

For him to say that to her or do that to her is a bigger slap in the face.

Communication and understanding is what needed. Not some sarcastic pop-off of Ego.


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## ScarletBegonias

ozymandias said:


> Agreed. I think that's normal and probably represents the majority of women who are ideological troubled by pornography. That said, I think we are essentially describing the same phenomenon. Of course it makes a woman feel "safe" to limit her man's sexual options and be "the only source". To not be is a significant loss of power.
> 
> My point was, I think that the women who are the most histrionic about that loss - the ones who insist that watching a pre-recorded video of people having sex is the moral equivalent of physical infidelity - are probably not using that power in good faith. For them, I suspect that the "power of the p***y" as you call it is the only tool they have in their toolbox and they are loathe to see it's usefulness diminished.


I never really looked at the nice girl issue of wanting to feel safe as anything to do with power. I have always been under the impression that like the stereotypical nice guy,nice girls aren't concerned with power.
If you're in a relationship,should your sexual options be limited without it becoming a question of power? Is not being significant a loss of power or a loss of appreciation?


My opinion on porn is more open so I am afraid I can't comment further on the possible motives for the ladies who compare it to infidelity without assuming things about them I don't actually know for certain.


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## totallyunexpected

AnnEMoose said:


> As a woman who considers herself open-minded and not prude, I couldn't help but feel sad when I first found my husband watching porn. For me, it wasn't that I found it degrading or disgusting. I wanted to be everything he needed. I didn't want him to need porn.


Well stated. This is exactly how I always felt, though I tried to deny it because "porn is normal" and women "shouldn't get worked up about it." I wish it didn't matter to me!


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## totallyunexpected

ozymandias said:


> Agreed. I think that's normal and probably represents the majority of women who are ideological troubled by pornography. That said, I think we are essentially describing the same phenomenon. Of course it makes a woman feel "safe" to limit her man's sexual options and be "the only source". To not be is a significant loss of power.
> 
> My point was, I think that the subset of those women who are the most histrionic about that loss - the ones who insist that watching a pre-recorded video of people having sex is the moral equivalent of physical infidelity - are probably not using that power in good faith. For them, I suspect that the "power of the p***y" as you call it is the only tool they have in their toolbox and they are loathe to see it's usefulness diminished.


The porn of today is very different from the past: 24/7 available for FREE with INFINITE videos and girls and acts. A pre-recorded set of tapes is one thing. But being able to click from this to that then to live web cams and so on. I don't equate it with infidelity, but then again it was through porn that my husband eventually decided to up the ante and look at the backpages and eventually call escorts. I regret being "cool" about porn early in our marriage. It ruined us. 

I hate when everyone assumes that because "they" have no trouble with porn that it is perfectly healthy. I know people who from time to time snort coke. Not everyone who uses cocaine becomes addicted. But for those who do, lives and relationships are destroyed. Some people tend to get addicted while others do not. Just as we should not assume all men/women who use porn often are addicts, we should also not deny the havoc that porn has wrecked on many marriages.


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## ozymandias

that_girl said:


> His wife can feel however she wants on the subject.
> 
> For him to say that to her or do that to her is a bigger slap in the face.
> 
> Communication and understanding is what needed. Not some sarcastic pop-off of Ego.


I disagree. He needs to forcefully invalidate these feelings because they are neither fair to him nor grounded in reality. She is trying to redefine what infidelity is - and according to him, she's already using it to rationalize inappropriate behavior. The OP needs to evaluate his own relationship with pornography without shame (it sounds like some of his use has been avoidance behavior) but I think he should absolutely stand his ground her premise that porn is cheating and call her out on it's ridiculousness.

What other elements of their marriage contract get to be unilaterally redefined if he concedes?


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## that_girl

Well, I guess if he wants to ruin his marriage and fight for f8cking PORN over his wife's feelings of not being good enough, then he should take your approach.

I'm happy porn isn't even an issue in my life. Too much bull.


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## Hope1964

ozymandias said:


> I disagree. He needs to forcefully invalidate these feelings because they are neither fair to him nor grounded in reality. She is trying to redefine what infidelity is - and according to him, she's already using it to rationalize inappropriate behavior. The OP needs to evaluate his own relationship with pornography without shame (it sounds like some of his use has been avoidance behavior) but I think he should absolutely stand his ground her premise that porn is cheating and call her out on it's ridiculousness.
> 
> What other elements of their marriage contract get to be unilaterally redefined if he concedes?


This may be true in your relationship, but it's a very narrow minded attitude to take for someone else's. If porn is so important to him that he should choose it over his wife, then that's what he should do. But if he wants to actually work on his marriage, then taking this stance is totally counterproductive.

To the OP, if your wife truly feels you've cheated by viewing porn, then treat it like any other infidelity. Install a keylogger and let her see everything you do on the computer. Give her full and unhindered access to everything on your phone. Work to regain her trust. And let her know how important she is to you and that giving up porn is the very least you will do for her.

Porn is no longer an issue in my life either, I am glad to say. My husband was one who started with 'just' porn and escalated to hook up sites and hookers.


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## ozymandias

Hope - if she decides that his porn consumption represents marital abuse, would you counsel the OP to sign up for Duluth model DV classes just to prove how important she is to him? Again, it sounds like the OP has things that he needs to own to get his marriage back on track. I don't see how that work is any easier by owning something he hasn't done. Empirically, objectively, the OP is not a WS for watching porn. How can treating him like one help the problems they actually have?


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## nogutsnoglory

husbandinwaiting said:


> I need to understand female view on porn. My W considers it the same as a physical relationship, and has used it to justify inappropriate behavior. Please help me understand. Need to figure out how to get past this.


All are different. In my experience the majority of porn haters (female) dislike it due to their own self esteem issues. Some guys can't handle their woman watching it for the same reason. Afraid their girl will rather have the large one over theirs. Aside from that you have the religious folks, and the people who just view it as degrading to woman.
Personally my wife and I will put on one and watch together and have a bunch of fun. It still is important to have good communication though. I know what she likes to watch and what grosses her out, so I make sure to have the remote ready. Knowing what she enjoys watching is key, and away we go. For us it just makes for a fun evening, and helps turn run of the mill sex into a "dirty night" she likes to put on an outfit etc...
So to each his own. 
If your woman thinks its cheating, then either you two have other issues and she does not feel #1 in your world, or she is just insecure. Just my opinion.


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## lifeistooshort

I don't know how much my hb views porn and I really don't care because I feel connected and close to him, but the day he "forcefully invalidates my feelings" about anything is not going to be a good day for him.
And the day I feel that porn is interfering with our relationship is also not going to be a good day for him. Fortunately in our 8 years together it has not been an issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964

ozymandias said:


> Hope - if she decides that his porn consumption represents marital abuse, would you counsel the OP to sign up for Duluth model DV classes just to prove how important she is to him? Again, it sounds like the OP has things that he needs to own to get his marriage back on track. I don't see how that work is any easier by owning something he hasn't done. Empirically, objectively, the OP is not a WS for watching porn. How can treating him like one help the problems they actually have?


I'm not telling him to join SAA here, which would be the equivalent in your example. As for what he has and hasn't done, he HAS viewed porn. That isn't the question. The question is what his wife thinks about that. Just because you don't think it's that bad doesn't mean everyone else should hold the same viewpoint. According to you he may not be a WS, but if, according to his wife, he is, that's what counts.

FWIW I agree that porn viewing isn't cheating. I like porn myself and if my hubby had left it at that it wouldn't have been an issue. I think women should, as a group, be more tolerant of it, and men should be less secretive about it. But what I think doesn't really matter. He has to worry about what his wife thinks, not what you or I think.


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## BrockLanders

that_girl said:


> His wife can feel however she wants on the subject.
> 
> For him to say that to her or do that to her is a bigger slap in the face.
> 
> Communication and understanding is what needed. Not some sarcastic pop-off of Ego.


Some things are objective, the definition of cheating is not one of them. While she's free to dislike porn and not want her husband to watch it, she can't reinvent a word to justify her dislike. Personally I think it's silly, but that's just one person's opinion.


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## ozymandias

Hope - I think I better understand what you are saying so let me rephrase what I'm saying. I think there are many different flavors and degrees of infidelity. Some don't require people to be physically present but can generate the same intimacy has living together for years. But the thing that differentiates those things from porn is consciousness. Porn isn't a bi-directional connection with anything. Until it can pass the Turing test it's just you consuming media.

We seem to agree on all that though. The part I think we disagree on is whether its good for the OP's marriage to placate his wife by agreeing that an apple is really an orange. Words mean things. Real, actual, concrete things. If a WS were trying to rationalize away a behavior by redefining cheating you guys would be all over it.

*Letting her conceptually redefine fidelity is a boundary issue.*


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## husbandinwaiting

Wow. You have all given me a lot to digest. I appreciate your thoughts.

Not sure how to comment at the moment, will try again later.


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## Hope1964

ozymandias said:


> The part I think we disagree on is whether its good for the OP's marriage to placate his wife by agreeing that an apple is really an orange. Words mean things. Real, actual, concrete things. If a WS were trying to rationalize away a behavior by redefining cheating you guys would be all over it.
> 
> *Letting her conceptually redefine fidelity is a boundary issue.*


But porn IS cheating to a LOT of women. She isn't trying to say that some innocuous work email exchange or something is cheating. She's talking about porn. Porn elicits a visceral response in most women, the same response cheating does. They have discovered their partner is interested in other women as sexual objects. Most women don't even think about this, or if they do they just deny to themselves that men do this - they're able to when it just goes on in the mans head. But when a woman finds proof that her husband likes to look at naked women other than her, she is devastated.

Yes I am generalizing, I know this isn't true for all women. But it used to be true for me, so I know how it feels.


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## husbandinwaiting

Hope1964 said:


> This may be true in your relationship, but it's a very narrow minded attitude to take for someone else's. If porn is so important to him that he should choose it over his wife, then that's what he should do. But if he wants to actually work on his marriage, then taking this stance is totally counterproductive.
> 
> To the OP, if your wife truly feels you've cheated by viewing porn, then treat it like any other infidelity. Install a keylogger and let her see everything you do on the computer. Give her full and unhindered access to everything on your phone. Work to regain her trust. And let her know how important she is to you and that giving up porn is the very least you will do for her.
> 
> Porn is no longer an issue in my life either, I am glad to say. My husband was one who started with 'just' porn and escalated to hook up sites and hookers.


I would love to regain her trust. Even now she says she doesn't believe that I have not viewed any. I even went as far to suggest canceling HBO. True Blood is starting up, watched every other season. Now I'm conflicted. There is always soft sex and nudity, not that it does anything for me. But it's a black and white issue. If I allow a little grey, then I might start compromising on a few darker shades. She likes HBO go, so I'll have that content available, and will choose not to watch. Explaining this didn't impress her.

As far as computer stuff, I could easily defeat any attempt at monitoring one way or another, she's already tried.

Not sure how to prove/demonstrate my commitment, it will just take time I guess.


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## ozymandias

Hope1964 said:


> But porn IS cheating to a LOT of women. She isn't trying to say that some innocuous work email exchange or something is cheating. She's talking about porn. Porn elicits a visceral response in most women, the same response cheating does. They have discovered their partner is interested in other women as sexual objects. Most women don't even think about this, or if they do they just deny to themselves that men do this - they're able to when it just goes on in the mans head. But when a woman finds proof that her husband likes to look at naked women other than her, she is devastated.


Are you saying that some subset of women are unable to tell the difference between infidelity and porn because they both evoke the same emotional response? There could be some merit to this, but I still don't see the value to the OP in indulging this kind of solipsism. Yes, IMO he needs to "forcefully invalidate her feelings" because she's a liar. She's accused him of something she knows isn't true. If he lets her get away with it how will she ever respect him?

Hope, I'm somewhat surprised to hear someone with your background defending the idea that one partner can just change the definition of what constitutes fidelity on the fly - away from what the rest of us here in the real world consider it to be. Again, in another context I think you would heap scorn on this behavior. Why does the OP's wife get a pass?


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## whataboutthis?

I know I'm weighing in a little late here...but I think there's something missing in the conversation. 

To original poster...are you just talking about watching porn? Are you involved in anything further like webcams, chatting, adult dating sites, looking up escorts, etc?

The reason I ask is that watching porn here and there is one thing. Taking it to the next level (contact) is a completely different issue. 

Is your wife upset because you watch porn or did you take it further into an interactive thing with other women?


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## Maricha75

ozymandias said:


> Are you saying that some subset of women are unable to tell the difference between infidelity and porn because they both evoke the same emotional response? There could be some merit to this, but I still don't see the value to the OP in indulging this kind of solipsism. Yes, IMO he needs to "forcefully invalidate her feelings" because she's a liar. She's accused him of something she knows isn't true. If he lets her get away with it how will she ever respect him?
> 
> Hope, I'm somewhat surprised to hear someone with your background defending the idea that one partner can just change the definition of what constitutes fidelity on the fly - away from what the rest of us here in the real world consider it to be. Again, in another context I think you would heap scorn on this behavior. Why does the OP's wife get a pass?


Dude, she is a liar by *YOUR* definition. Many women DO see it as cheating. Just because YOU don't doesn't mean YOU are right about it. YOU are right about it for YOU, not for ANYONE else. Back off!

Now, do I see porn as cheating? No. Do I see it as a betrayal? Absolutely. For me, it has no place in our marriage. Would I start accusing him of cheating on me if he ever looked at it? No, but I can guarantee I'd be highly pissed off. And I'd throw it where it belongs... in the dumpster! He knows how I feel about it, has known from the start. Fortunately for me, I have a husband who is like-minded, so no concerns with that issue.

I don't push my own views on someone else's marriage. I give my opinion when asked. However it DOES piss me off when I see someone trying to tell another that their feelings about it are invalid. YOU have no right to tell someone what they can or cannot feel!


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## richie33

Just like you have no right to tell him to back off giving his opinion on the subject.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonim

that_girl said:


> His wife can feel however she wants on the subject.
> 
> For him to say that to her or do that to her is a bigger slap in the face.
> 
> Communication and understanding is what needed. Not some sarcastic pop-off of Ego.


I never said she couldn't feel how she wants to, but it might be just as big a slap in the face for her to say that 'looking at porn is the same thing as cheating' and use that to justify inappropriate behavior no?

I agree that communication is needed though.


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## Maricha75

richie33 said:


> Just like you have no right to tell him to back off giving his opinion on the subject.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was telling him to back off on calling a woman a liar because she FEELS for her own marriage that it is cheating. He doesn't get to define for someone else whether it is cheating or not. The only one he can define it for is HIMSELF. Just as I can define cheating, in my own marriage, for MYSELF. If someone thinks emotional affairs aren't cheating, but I do, it doesn't make me a liar, nor does it make him/her a liar. It means our opinions differ about a definition. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## ozymandias

Maricha75 said:


> Dude, she is a liar by *YOUR* definition. Many women DO see it as cheating. Just because YOU don't doesn't mean YOU are right about it. YOU are right about it for YOU, not for ANYONE else. Back off!
> 
> Now, do I see porn as cheating? No. Do I see it as a betrayal? Absolutely. For me, it has no place in our marriage. Would I start accusing him of cheating on me if he ever looked at it? No, but I can guarantee I'd be highly pissed off. And I'd throw it where it belongs... in the dumpster! He knows how I feel about it, has known from the start. Fortunately for me, I have a husband who is like-minded, so no concerns with that issue.
> 
> I don't push my own views on someone else's marriage. I give my opinion when asked. However it DOES piss me off when I see someone trying to tell another that their feelings about it are invalid. YOU have no right to tell someone what they can or cannot feel!


Of course I'm right about it. She's a liar by the dictionary definition.... and I will not back off. It doesn't matter how many women think watching porn is infidelity. It objectively is not. It's not a matter of opinion. It's funny to see so many people in this thread support the idea that what constitutes fidelity is arbitrary and subject to the whims of their emotions. Equivocate much?

You folks have the right to think or feel whatever crazy things you want to in your own heads but out here in the real world, words mean things. Specific things. You may have a visceral negative reaction to porn that reminds you of what infidelity feels like - but its something completely different. Pick a new word for that situational angst. Infidelity is taken.


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## ozymandias

Maricha75 said:


> I was telling him to back off on calling a woman a liar because she FEELS for her own marriage that it is cheating. He doesn't get to define for someone else whether it is cheating or not. The only one he can define it for is HIMSELF. Just as I can define cheating, in my own marriage, for MYSELF. If someone thinks emotional affairs aren't cheating, but I do, it doesn't make me a liar, nor does it make him/her a liar. It means our opinions differ about a definition. Nothing more, nothing less.


lol @ this. Everyone gets their own personal definition of infidelity now? Our wives get to tag anything they don't like with the label even if doesn't involve another person? If the OP's wife is of the opinion that him throwing his dirty socks on the floor is infidelity, is she entitled to it? Where does this end? At what point does reality intrude?


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## Maricha75

ozymandias said:


> You folks have the right to think or feel whatever crazy things you want to in your own heads but out here in the real world, words mean things. Specific things. You may have a visceral negative reaction to porn that reminds you of what infidelity feels like - but its something completely different. Pick a new word for that situational angst. Infidelity is taken.


You misunderstand ozy. I don't, personally, equate porn with cheating. I just find it disgusting. I see no use for it, whether in a relationship or not. But that is my personal view. It isn't something I make others conform to because I know that, no matter what _I_ think about it, not everyone will agree.

However, just because you said that what she is using as definition doesn't fit the dictionary definition:

(from dictionary.com)
in·fi·del·i·ty

noun, plural in·fi·del·i·ties.
1.
marital disloyalty; adultery.
2.
unfaithfulness; disloyalty.
3.
lack of religious faith, especially Christian faith.
*4.
a breach of trust or a disloyal act; transgression.*

I'd say number 4 fits pretty well in her case. Of course, I expect there will be some who will refute this... it won't surprise me, in the least.


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## richie33

So everyone is a cheater then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## husbandinwaiting

whataboutthis? said:


> I know I'm weighing in a little late here...but I think there's something missing in the conversation.
> 
> To original poster...are you just talking about watching porn? Are you involved in anything further like webcams, chatting, adult dating sites, looking up escorts, etc?
> 
> The reason I ask is that watching porn here and there is one thing. Taking it to the next level (contact) is a completely different issue.
> 
> Is your wife upset because you watch porn or did you take it further into an interactive thing with other women?


Straight tube videos.


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## richie33

CristianoRonaldo7 said:


> *"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."*
> 
> I strongly believe this. You're not going to like me saying this, but your wife has every right to feel the way she does. She feels betrayed, and I can completely understand it.
> 
> Most people here wouldn't agree with me, but in my opinion, you have cheated on her.
> 
> Let me put it like this...
> 
> Those who say that watching porn is "normal" usually say it to justify the fact that they do it. And I guess you could say it's normal, because many people do it, but does that make it right?
> 
> Imagine if you actually did have a physical affair with someone, and then maybe a few days, months or even years later, you were out and about with your wife, and you came across the woman you had the affair with... How would you feel? Awkward, embarrassed, ashamed?
> 
> Now, tell me what the difference would be if you hadn't had a physical affair, but instead you came across that woman you were "looking" at on the computer? Would you not feel the same way?


The difference is one is flesh and the other is a image. If my wife and I met Pamela Anderson I wouldn't feel the least worried that here's a woman I cheated on my wife with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33

I find it sad that you think that's cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75

richie33 said:


> I find it sad that you think that's cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I find it sad that you don't recognize that CristianoRonaldo7 was pointing out a biblical definition for cheating. Maybe you don't hold to what the Bible says. CR, I am guessing, based on his responses, does. And, now that he has mentioned it, I agree. It makes me even more glad that my husband chooses not to watch it.

Look, I get that you all don't agree that it is cheating. However, one who believes what the Bible says to be truth would have to acknowledge that porn would fit the criteria of "look with lust". So, I do revise my statement. I do see it as cheating... but that is a Christian perspective.


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## richie33

Maricha75 said:


> I find it sad that you don't recognize that CristianoRonaldo7 was pointing out a biblical definition for cheating. Maybe you don't hold to what the Bible says. CR, I am guessing, based on his responses, does. And, now that he has mentioned it, I agree. It makes me even more glad that my husband chooses not to watch it.
> 
> Look, I get that you all don't agree that it is cheating. However, one who believes what the Bible says to be truth would have to acknowledge that porn would fit the criteria of "look with lust". So, I do revise my statement. I do see it as cheating... but that is a Christian perspective.


I am glad I am not a cheater.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

I think Christiano makes an interesting point, and that is that people claim porn is normal to justify the fact that they do it, so they're looking to justify that which they've already decided to do. Good decisions can never be made this way. "Normal" is a somewhat subjective term anyway, in South Africa many people might claim rape is normal because so many people do but it, but does that make it a good idea? Clearly you can't compare rape to porn (at least the people that do it willingly) but it does suggest that just because a lot of people do it doesn't make it a good idea. How many porn viewers have really pondered whether it's a good idea? I'm betting not many. For instance, would you be ok with your daughter doing porn if that was a decision she made? Or should it be someone else's daughter? One might decide in the end that they really believe porn is ok but this is a conversation worth having.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TiggyBlue

I think it really depends if it was discussed before marriage.
For some women it is a form of betrayal, for some it takes away total attraction from there spouse and for some it's totally fine.


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## TiggyBlue

CristianoRonaldo7 said:


> Just because someone doesn't respect themselves, it doesn't mean you shouldn't respect them either.


To be fair self respect is subjective depends on the person. because someone is porn doesn't automatically mean they don't respect them self their definition of self respect may be different to yours.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

I don't see it as physical relationship, but I would be self conscious of my own body and it would most likely lower my self esteem. 

My h surprising does not look at porn. My ex h had a porn addiction. It did hurt my feelings since my ex h always called me worthless, "fat"(which I was underweight at the time) and every other name in the book. 

I know that most men look at porn, but if its not an addiction I'm okay with it.


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## JustHer

I completely agree with Hope and Maricha75. Let me try to explain another way that may help the OP and others to understand.

The intimate - sexual part of a marriage is shared only between the two people involved, and the only thing that really sets it apart from any other relationship. You can talk to your friends, family, etc., you can share your dreams with others, you work with others, get advice, make financial deals, the list goes on and on, with others. BUT - the only person you have any kind of sexual relationship with is your spouse. You do not think of doing it with someone else, you do not do it with someone else - and you do not watch someone else doing it. This is a private and special part of your relationship that belongs to the two of you and outsiders of anykind are not welcome or allowed.

To me this is a complete violation of our commitment, vows and respect for our marriage and shows complete degredation of how he views me and our special, intimate relationship.

I think it rates right up with there with a type of cheating. It is worse than an EA, but very close to a PA. This type of behavior from my husband would damage our relationship very badly.

This is how I feel, and judging by what the OP wrote about his wife, I would guess this is what she is feeling.


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## ozymandias

The problem with the Christian definition of infidelity (looking with lust in the heart and whatnot) is that it's not very useful. It seems engineered specifically to make as many people guilty of it as possible... which makes sense. Faiths like Christianity *need* sinners so I understand why its founders made the criteria broad. But again, it's just not very useful. What good does it do the folks over in CWI to say that looking at the hot checkout girl or guy at the gym is as much infidelity as the WS who texts the soccer dad 50 times a day or bangs their coworker during lunch? It dilutes the meaning of infidelity to uselessness and diminishes the experience of those who are victims of actual infidelity.

Maricha75 - dictionary.com gave you four choices for the word infidelity. One of them specifically mentioned meaning in the context of marriage. You bolded a different one. Interesting.


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## ozymandias

JustHer said:


> You do not think of doing it with someone else,


How is this working out for you and your husband?


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## ozymandias

lifeistooshort said:


> I think Christiano makes an interesting point, and that is that people claim porn is normal to justify the fact that they do it, so they're looking to justify that which they've already decided to do. Good decisions can never be made this way. "Normal" is a somewhat subjective term anyway, in South Africa many people might claim rape is normal because so many people do but it, but does that make it a good idea? Clearly you can't compare rape to porn (at least the people that do it willingly) but it does suggest that just because a lot of people do it doesn't make it a good idea. How many porn viewers have really pondered whether it's a good idea? I'm betting not many. For instance, would you be ok with your daughter doing porn if that was a decision she made? Or should it be someone else's daughter? One might decide in the end that they really believe porn is ok but this is a conversation worth having.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. This is exactly what I am arguing against - subjectivity. Just because some plurality of people may think something, it doesn't make it so. Truth is not something arrived at by consensus.


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## JustHer

ozymandias said:


> How is this working out for you and your husband?


GREAT!!! :smthumbup:


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## Maricha75

ozymandias said:


> The problem with the Christian definition of infidelity (looking with lust in the heart and whatnot) is that it's not very useful. It seems engineered specifically to make as many people guilty of it as possible... which makes sense. Faiths like Christianity *need* sinners so I understand why its founders made the criteria broad. But again, it's just not very useful. What good does it do the folks over in CWI to say that looking at the hot checkout girl or guy at the gym is as much infidelity as the WS who texts the soccer dad 50 times a day or bangs their coworker during lunch? It dilutes the meaning of infidelity to uselessness and diminishes the experience of those who are victims of actual infidelity.
> 
> *Maricha75 - dictionary.com gave you four choices for the word infidelity. One of them specifically mentioned meaning in the context of marriage. You bolded a different one. Interesting.*


What's so interesting about my bolding that particular definition? In the first one, it says marital relationship, and clarifies it as adultery. In the one I bolded, it says a betrayal of trust...which is likely more in line with what the OP's wife is feeling. So, it's interesting... how? :scratchhead:

I put the WHOLE thing up there because you stated it didn't fit with the definition of infidelity. Yes, infidelity is first thought of as having sex with someone other than the spouse (adultery). But number 4 is the closest example... a disloyal act, transgression.... because he's not sticking his penis inside any of the them.


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## Maricha75

richie33 said:


> I am glad I am not a cheater.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure your wife is glad as well...


----------



## ozymandias

Uh... ok. Let me rephrase. How well do you think your husband is living up to the expectation that he never think about having sex with someone else? Hell, how well are you living up to it?

This sounds crazy to me. It strikes to the heart of why the Christian definition of infidelity (and the OPs wife's definition) seems so asinine. That the thought is somehow as bad as the deed. My experience is that human nature doesn't work this way. I *think* about doing lots of things but some of those things would be bad and hurtful so I choose not to do them. Call it having good filters. Call it impulse control. Call it character. Regardless, I think feeling guilty about thoughts is asking for failure. The only thing people should feel guilty for are their actions.

JustHer, I'm glad you posted what you did because I think it really drills down to what the porn==cheating contingent is getting at. My own system of ethics has no room for thoughtcrime.


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## TCSRedhead

In each marriage, there are intimacy boundaries set by both parties. What boundaries work in my marriage aren't necessarily right for others and vice versa.

In this case, OP's wife is not comfortable with porn in her marriage and sees it as a violation of those intimacy boundaries. 

All I can recommend is complete transparency, patience and time to overcome this lapse. 

Now, what type of inappropriate behavior are you talking about?


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## Maricha75

ozymandias said:


> Uh... ok. Let me rephrase. How well do you think your husband is living up to the expectation that he never think about having sex with someone else? Hell, how well are you living up to it?
> 
> This sounds crazy to me. It strikes to the heart of why the Christian definition of infidelity (and the OPs wife's definition) seems so asinine. That the thought is somehow as bad as the deed. My experience is that human nature doesn't work this way. I *think* about doing lots of things but some of those things would be bad and hurtful so I choose not to do them. Call it having good filters. Call it impulse control. Call it character. Regardless, I think feeling guilty about thoughts is asking for failure. The only thing people should feel guilty for are their actions.
> 
> JustHer, I'm glad you posted what you did because I think it really drills down to what the porn==cheating contingent is getting at. My own system of ethics has no room for thoughtcrime.


I can't SPEAK for my husband, but I can honestly say with certainty that he doesn't think of sex with anyone else. As for myself, no, I do not think of sex with anyone else either. We are completely open and honest with each other. There was a time when we weren't so open with each other. What he was thinking during that time, I can't even begin to guess, but I have a fairly good idea. I was in the same place at that time. But since then? Like I said, open and honest, completely. 

Here's the thing. It seems asinine to you because it doesn't fit in your values, your lifestyle. But, for someone like me, my husband, and the rest of my family, it fits our lives. We live what we profess to believe. Do I police his thoughts? Of course not. His thoughts are between him and God. Same with mine. It doesn't change the fact that we are in agreement on this subject. That's what matters.

I expect to get push back over this post, and that's ok. I expect to get answers like "you're deluding yourself" and the like. The thing is, I know my husband. While you men know men in GENERAL, I know my husband, the man HIMSELF. I have no reason to doubt him, just as he has no reason to doubt me.


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## TCSRedhead

ozymandias said:


> Uh... ok. Let me rephrase. How well do you think your husband is living up to the expectation that he never think about having sex with someone else? Hell, how well are you living up to it?
> 
> This sounds crazy to me. It strikes to the heart of why the Christian definition of infidelity (and the OPs wife's definition) seems so asinine. That the thought is somehow as bad as the deed. My experience is that human nature doesn't work this way. I *think* about doing lots of things but some of those things would be bad and hurtful so I choose not to do them. Call it having good filters. Call it impulse control. Call it character. Regardless, I think feeling guilty about thoughts is asking for failure. The only thing people should feel guilty for are their actions.
> 
> JustHer, I'm glad you posted what you did because I think it really drills down to what the porn==cheating contingent is getting at. My own system of ethics has no room for thoughtcrime.


I get that you have very different thoughts/opinions but the OP is asking specifically for female POV on porn in marriage and addressing some inappropriate behavior that she is using his porn to justify. Let's work on helping him with that. 

Your system of ethics has no room for thoughtcrime but many women would be hurt by this behavior. It doesn't make either side of the equation WRONG.


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## JustHer

ozymandias said:


> Uh... ok. Let me rephrase. _ How well do you think your husband is living up to the expectation that he never think about having sex with someone else? Hell, how well are you living up to it?_
> 
> *Maybe, maybe not. There are times when I see an attractive man and think to myself, "he is a good looking man", that doesn't mean I am thinking of "doing" him. In fact I don't think that. If my husband thinks beyond that when he looks at other women, then it is up to him if he is going to allow his mind to continue in that thought process or if he will concousely change it. But when you are watching porn, you are thinking that. You are putting yourself in a possition where someone else is turning you on - period. You are watching them, thinking of them and lusting after what you are watching. You are bringing others into your private, intimate relationship. Yes, you will turn to your wife (or you hand) so you aren't actually "doing" the tv, or the people, but there is very little difference in mine and many other womans minds. There is a very big difference between an unsolicited thought that you quickly "filter" and one that is fed and encouraged. *
> 
> This sounds crazy to me. It strikes to the heart of why the Christian definition of infidelity (and the OPs wife's definition) seems so asinine. That the thought is somehow as bad as the deed. My experience is that human nature doesn't work this way. I *think* about doing lots of things but some of those things would be bad and hurtful so I choose not to do them. Call it having good filters. Call it impulse control. Call it character. Regardless, I think feeling guilty about thoughts is asking for failure. The only thing people should feel guilty for are their actions.
> 
> *I do not, and I don't expect my H to, feel guilty about a thought as long as we don't ecourage it. Filter it out and be done with it. I like your deffinition of calling it "good filters". But indulging in it is not filtering it out and watching it play out in front of you is allowing yourself to succumb to it. There is the difference between your interpretation of the Christian view and what the Christian view really is. I guess we should be more explicet and say, "an indulged thought", or "a prolonged thought", or "a thought you don't try to filter right away".*
> 
> 
> JustHer, I'm glad you posted what you did because I think it really drills down to what the porn==cheating contingent is getting at. My own system of ethics has no room for thoughtcrime.


Glad to help


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## BrockLanders

Watching some porn to get your rocks off has exactly the same lack of emotional attachment as one would have to the toilet bowl while dropping a deuce. Absolutely none. It's a means to an end. If you're not furiously crashing the yogurt truck all day long and it's not a problem, I don't see any problem with it. Do some of you think men should pick less attractive women to watch in porn? Why would you tie your self esteem to this at all? Looks only matter to a guy to a certain point, if a woman is average she still stands a good shot at sleeping with a 10/10 alpha god. It's not true the other way around, the way women view men, maybe that's where some of you are getting lost here.


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## ALotOnMyMind

husbandinwaiting said:


> I need to understand female view on porn. My W considers it the same as a physical relationship, and has used it to justify inappropriate behavior. Please help me understand. Need to figure out how to get past this.





MrsDavey said:


> Female views on porn vary widely.


What Mrs. Davey said. Indeed.

My own personal view on porn: As long it is not an addiction and as long as it isn't associated with anything deeply disturbing, it's fine. I myself have watched lots of porn. I have no addictions to it. I have no deeply disturbing emotional issues.

My reasons for watching porn were to help me have a satisfying "sex life" when I was single and abstinent for 2 years, and in my virginhood days. I also sometimes watch porn with my husband, and I would like to watch porn sometimes in my alone time but I am currently not able to do so because I don't have my own internet connection or computer (have to use work or roommate's internet/computer at this time).

We humans are deeply sexual creatures; we require this part of our lives to be satisfied to be healthy and happy, speaking in both a biological and emotional sense. 

However, when porn is used to escape sex with your partner, or as part of an addiction, or to feed deeply perverted curiosity (and this definition varies from person to person), it will of course be unhealthy.

Lots of women think that if their husband looks at porn it is cheating on them. I say this is ridiculous. Now, if the husband is using porn so that he doesn't have to have sex with his wife, I have to ask, why doesn't he want to have sex with his wife? This would uncover the underlying reason. Perhaps the wife pushes him away emotionally. Or perhaps the wife has gained 200 pounds and is physically unattractive to the husband. 

I know that if my husband told me not to ever look at porn again, I'd want to have a long conversation with him about his reasons. If he told me, "looking at porn is cheating!" without any reasons or justification for this statement, I'd tell him he was crazy.



husbandinwaiting said:


> I saw porn as a coping mechanism, for a disconnect in our relationship. I want to be close to my wife, I want to have relations with her. She drifted away and shut me out, and denied physical contact, apparently as a response to porn use. Our reactions to each other compounded. I believe it was a choice, I've turned it off like a switch--unless it's just some kind of fear response.
> 
> I failed to understand how deeply it hurt her. Trying to get some understanding of what she/we need to do to get through this.


Wait, so which came first, your use of porn, or her disconnect from you? When you said you used it as a coping mechanism, I thought you meant you were using it to deal with your wife's disconnect from you, but then you said that she disconnected from you because of your use of porn. So what was your initial reason for the use of porn? Did you and her discuss porn use before marriage? What was her opinion on porn before marriage?


----------



## ALotOnMyMind

AnnEMoose said:


> As a woman who considers herself open-minded and not prude, I couldn't help but feel sad when I first found my husband watching porn. For me, it wasn't that I found it degrading or disgusting. I wanted to be everything he needed. I didn't want him to need porn.


I think that wanting to be everything your husband needed sexually was a wrong expectation that set you up for disappointment. My parents told me early on when I was a kid and teenager not to expect complete fulfillment (sexually or otherwise) from the marriage partner. It is a setup for pain and disappointment and it's not fair to yourself or your partner. 

If you expected yourself to be everything he needed, then surely you also expected HIM to be everything YOU needed. Isn't this unfair? What if he isn't everything you needed? What if sometimes you need something a little different that he can't provide?

I will admit here that my husband, as much as I love him and his and my intimacy, cannot provide "everything" I need from him sexually. But that is ok and I am comfortable with this because I have other outlets (i.e porn and toys). To me, this is perfectly acceptable and realistic and I would understand if he felt the same way.

My husband and I, however, share a very deep emotional bond that we both find to be extremely comforting, soothing and satisfying. We both place a huge value on this. The fact that either of us might occasionally feel less than 100% satisfied sexually does not diminish our bond or the love we have for each other.


----------



## JustHer

BrockLanders said:


> Watching some porn to get your rocks off has exactly the same lack of emotional attachment as one would have to the toilet bowl while dropping a deuce. Absolutely none. It's a means to an end. If you're not furiously crashing the yogurt truck all day long and it's not a problem, I don't see any problem with it. Do some of you think men should pick less attractive women to watch in porn? Why would you tie your self esteem to this at all? Looks only matter to a guy to a certain point, if a woman is average she still stands a good shot at sleeping with a 10/10 alpha god. It's not true the other way around, the way women view men, maybe that's where some of you are getting lost here.


I never once mentioned the amount of attractivness the people have or don't have that are displaying themselves in porn. It has absolutely nothing to do with that, nothing to do with self esteem. If you have read all the posts and still don't get it, I am sorry.

What I and others here have tried to do here is educate the OP on why his wife is having the reaction she is. It has nothing to do with whether you agree with it or not. Even the OP doesn't have to agree, but he does have to understand if he wants to try to fix this.


----------



## ALotOnMyMind

ScarletBegonias said:


> Depends on who you're asking.For many people it's the same as emotionally cheating.


How could watching porn be emotionally cheating? I can't see how anyone except for very lonely and confused and emotionally damaged people can get emotionally connected to an image of people having sex. 

Now, if your spouse/SO starts calling someone and begins a romantic relationship with them whether it is just on the phone or on the internet or in person, that is emotionally cheating.



ScarletBegonias said:


> For some women,yes I can see this being the case.Many ladies are very drunk on the power of the p***y.
> 
> But for the average nice girl,it's just a case of wanting to be the only source of her man's fantasies bc that's what makes her feel safe and attractive.


If a woman's source of safety and attractiveness is derived from her husband's fantasies, she's got big big *big *problems. Very weak foundation for her self esteem. A woman's self esteem and perception of her safety and attractiveness should be derived from her perception of herself, no one else's. Period.



ozymandias said:


> I disagree. He needs to forcefully invalidate these feelings because they are neither fair to him nor grounded in reality. She is trying to redefine what infidelity is - and according to him, she's already using it to rationalize inappropriate behavior. The OP needs to evaluate his own relationship with pornography without shame (it sounds like some of his use has been avoidance behavior) but I think he should absolutely stand his ground her premise that porn is cheating and call her out on it's ridiculousness.


I don't know about "forcefully invalidate" because that doesn't sound very healthy to me. A marriage is about two people always striving to understand each other, look out for each other, listen to each other, care about the other and love each other. You two are supposed to have each others' backs. If she truly is trying to "redefine" what infidelity is, that is definitely wrong of her to do. If she and him had agreed to a definition of infidelity prior to their marriage and now she wants to change it, this is a sign that she is trying to be controlling or it is a sign of something deeper that is wrong with her--such as a self esteem problem that she wasn't aware of until her husband's actual use of porn uncovered it.



ozymandias said:


> What other elements of their marriage contract get to be unilaterally redefined if he concedes?


Very true.



nogutsnoglory said:


> All are different. In my experience the majority of porn haters (female) dislike it due to their own self esteem issues. Some guys can't handle their woman watching it for the same reason. Afraid their girl will rather have the large one over theirs.


People need to be brutally honest about things like this. Sometimes, yes, a woman would want to have the "bigger one." Sometimes, a man would like to try out another woman. Is this wrong? Is this hurtful? To many people it is, but to me, it's just reality and it isn't hurtful. For this, there are toys and porn.

However, I draw the line at actually having sex with another person. There are these real-life issues to worry about such as the possibility of pregnancy, STDs, unwanted emotional attachments and jealousy.



nogutsnoglory said:


> Aside from that you have the religious folks, and the people who just view it as degrading to woman.
> 
> Personally my wife and I will put on one and watch together and have a bunch of fun. It still is important to have good communication though. I know what she likes to watch and what grosses her out, so I make sure to have the remote ready. Knowing what she enjoys watching is key, and away we go. For us it just makes for a fun evening, and helps turn run of the mill sex into a "dirty night" she likes to put on an outfit etc...
> 
> So to each his own.
> 
> If your woman thinks its cheating, then either you two have other issues and she does not feel #1 in your world, or she is just insecure. Just my opinion.


I agree with this completely.


----------



## Ano

When I was having issues, it wasnt exactly the porn that made me upset. It was the fact that instead of waiting for me (when he knew I would want to have sex when I got home from work), he choose to handle business himself. It hurt my feelings and made me feel like I was good enough and he would rather just masturbate. It did become a problem, an excessive one. At one point he couldn't even keep it up for me because of his excessive masturbation. 

Are you sure its the porn that bothers her and not the fact all together that you jerk off at all?


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## always_alone

BrockLanders said:


> Watching some porn to get your rocks off has exactly the same lack of emotional attachment as one would have to the toilet bowl while dropping a deuce. Absolutely none. It's a means to an end. If you're not furiously crashing the yogurt truck all day long and it's not a problem, I don't see any problem with it. Do some of you think men should pick less attractive women to watch in porn? Why would you tie your self esteem to this at all? Looks only matter to a guy to a certain point, if a woman is average she still stands a good shot at sleeping with a 10/10 alpha god. It's not true the other way around, the way women view men, maybe that's where some of you are getting lost here.


Here's what I think:

I used to think my SO was different from most men because he always told me that he believed in women's equality, yada yada, yada, blah, blah, blah, and never bothered to tell me that he's perfectly happy to just use up women and throw them in the trashcan when he is done.

Now that i know this, I expect that i will be the next one in the trashcan.

Oh, I know I'm different because "I'm real", but somehow I find little comfort or desirability in being a self-lubricating fleshlight.


----------



## BrockLanders

always_alone said:


> Here's what I think:
> 
> I used to think my SO was different from most men because he always told me that he believed in women's equality, yada yada, yada, blah, blah, blah, and never bothered to tell me that he's perfectly happy to just use up women and throw them in the trashcan when he is done.
> 
> Now that i know this, I expect that i will be the next one in the trashcan.
> 
> Oh, I know I'm different because "I'm real", but somehow I find little comfort or desirability in being a self-lubricating fleshlight.


I don't see why believing in equality and watching porn need be mutually exclusive. Most men simply don't attach as much emotion to sex as women do. He married you for you, the last line of your post is true, without the snark of course.


----------



## always_alone

ALotOnMyMind said:


> Lots of women think that if their husband looks at porn it is cheating on them. I say this is ridiculous. Now, if the husband is using porn so that he doesn't have to have sex with his wife, I have to ask, why doesn't he want to have sex with his wife? This would uncover the underlying reason. Perhaps the wife pushes him away emotionally. Or perhaps the wife has gained 200 pounds and is physically unattractive to the husband.


Interesting that you assume that the woman must somehow be responsible for this. It is possible that said husband is just a selfish cake-eating git who only cares about his own satisfaction.


----------



## always_alone

BrockLanders said:


> I don't see why believing in equality and watching porn need be mutually exclusive. Most men simply don't attach as much emotion to sex as women do. He married you for you, the last line of your post is true, without the snark of course.


Exactly. How many times have I been told that men attach no emotion to sex, and that it's "just sex", no big deal?

And now, all of a sudden, I'm supposed to believe it means something? Ummmm, yeah, sure. Fool me once ...


----------



## ALotOnMyMind

always_alone said:


> Interesting that you assume that the woman must somehow be responsible for this. It is possible that said husband is just a selfish cake-eating git who only cares about his own satisfaction.


It could be the man's fault if he is more interested in masturbation and watching porn than in having sex with his wife.

However, what man in his right mind, when given the option of watching porn vs having the option to have real sex with a real woman, would choose the porn?


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## Catherine602

Shortly after we were married, I found out my husband watched porn. I had not watched it. I felt sorry for the women in that industry. I read that many of them are abuse survivors and very young and impressionable. 

I felt the young women were talked into doing porn and would regret it when they got older. No one cares about the effect or sees them as human. They are just useful for a year or two. 

My husband invited me to watch porn with him after i found out. That was the worse thing he could have done. In fact, wish i never saw it. I felt terrible afterwards for several reasons. 

First, I was more convinced than ever, that the pathology and innocence of these girls were used for the profit of the pornographers. 

I also became self-concious about how I looked for the first time ever. I compared my actions during sex to these girls. It was nothing like these porn actresses.

The most disturbing was that the girls appeared to be teens and had perfect slim bodies. In comparison, i saw imperfections that I did not see before. 

I compared my body type to the teens. I looked like the porn actresses when I was 18 but I filled out. I assume my husband likes that body type and is settling for me. 

There is nothing he can say to convince me otherwise. He would not be able to get off watching these girls if he did not prefer them. That's the effect of porn for me. 

It effects many relationships, it is insidious. The effect on the wife is often dismissed or porn use is jutified. Telling a women that porn gives a man the veriety he needs is not something that should be shared. That is if you want to continue having sex with her. 

Most post on TAM's numerous porn threads, justify a mans right to look at porn for the most part. Women who don't like it are controlling. 

The only time I have read of men acknowledging that it is a problem in their relationship is when their wives stop having sex as a result. 

These are my feelings. They may or may not match everyone's reality but they are my reality. The OP ask for womens opinion. I honored his request in the hope that it will help him. 

BTW. My husband watches porn. I feel it would be invading his privacy, and shaming him if I expected him to stop. We discussed and I told him that I think it his business and I don't feel any different about him. 

Not do I feel less respect for him. I don't understand everything so I let it go as one of the misteries of life. :=/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BrockLanders

always_alone said:


> Exactly. How many times have I been told that men attach no emotion to sex, and that it's "just sex", no big deal?
> 
> And now, all of a sudden, I'm supposed to believe it means something? Ummmm, yeah, sure. Fool me once ...



I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here... It seems a bit solipcistic, could you rephrase it outside the context of yourself?


----------



## Maricha75

ALotOnMyMind said:


> It could be the man's fault if he is more interested in masturbation and watching porn than in having sex with his wife.
> 
> *However, what man in his right mind, when given the option of watching porn vs having the option to have real sex with a real woman, would choose the porn?*


Good question. There's a poster on here by the name of AnnieAsh who has been wondering the exact same thing about her husband...


----------



## always_alone

ALotOnMyMind said:


> It could be the man's fault if he is more interested in masturbation and watching porn than in having sex with his wife.
> 
> However, what man in his right mind, when given the option of watching porn vs having the option to have real sex with a real woman, would choose the porn?



Reasons I've seen to explain it include, more variety, more kink, less complicated, less effort involved, bored with or not attracted to spouse, more exciting, better fantasy.

But the real truth is that I have no idea. You'll have to ask them. It shouldn't be too hard, though. There's plenty of them out there.


----------



## Maricha75

BrockLanders said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here... It seems a bit solipcistic, could you rephrase it outside the context of yourself?


Ok, how about....

If men don't attach emotion to sex, why get upset if their wives cheat? After all, it's "just sex" right?

FTR, I don't think that myself. For me, sex and emotions are connected...same for my husband. Yes, I know, this makes him unusual. But I love that he's different.


----------



## ozymandias

Maricha75 said:


> in·fi·del·i·ty
> 
> noun, plural in·fi·del·i·ties.
> 1.
> marital disloyalty; adultery.
> 2.
> unfaithfulness; disloyalty.
> 3.
> lack of religious faith, especially Christian faith.
> *4.
> a breach of trust or a disloyal act; transgression.*





Maricha75 said:


> What's so interesting about my bolding that particular definition? In the first one, it says marital relationship, and clarifies it as adultery. In the one I bolded, it says a betrayal of trust...which is likely more in line with what the OP's wife is feeling. So, it's interesting... how? :scratchhead:


It's interesting because you chose correctly.

Yes, arguably the OP may be guilty of infidelity in the definition four sense of the word. Depending on the promises he's made and the expectations they've set about pornography in their marriage, he may indeed have betrayed her trust. This is not what his wife has accused him of though. His first post says "My W considers it the same as a physical relationship". He is being accused of infidelity in the definition one sense of the word. 

Seriously... If the OPs wife told one of their peers they were getting a divorce because of "infidelity", which sense of the word would they assume she meant?


----------



## BrockLanders

Catherine602 said:


> Shortly after we were married, I found out my husband watched porn. I had not watched it. I felt sorry for the women in that industry. I read that many of them are abuse survivors and very young and impressionable. I felt the young women were talked into doing porn and would regret it when they got older. No one cares about the effect or sees them as human. They are just useful for a year or two.
> 
> My husband invited me to watch porn with him after i found out. That was the worse thing he could have done. In fact, wish i never saw it. I felt terrible afterwards for several reasons. First, I was more convinced than ever, that the pathology and innocence of these girls were used for the profit of the pornographers. I also became self-concious about how I looked for the first ever. I compared my actions during sex to these girls. It was nothing like these porn actresses.
> 
> The most disturbing was that the girls appeared to be teens and had perfect slim bodies. In comparison, i saw imperfections that I did not see before. I compared my body type to the teens. I looked like the porn actresses when I was 18 but I filled out. I assume my husband likes that body type and is settling for me.
> 
> There is nothing he can say to convince me otherwise. He would not be able to get off watching these girls if he did not prefer them. That's the effect of porn for me. It effects many relationships, it is insidious. The effect on the wife is often dismissed or porn use is jutified. Telling a women that porn gives a man the veriety he needs is not something that should be shared. That is if you want to continue having sex with her.
> 
> Most post on TAM's numerous porn threads, justify a mans right to look at porn for the most part. Women who don't like it are controlling. The only time I have read of men acknowledging that it is a problem in their relationship is when their wives stop having sex as a result.
> 
> These are my feelings. They may or may not match everyone's reality but they are my reality. The OP ask for womens opinion. I honored his request in the hope that it will help him.
> 
> BTW. My husband watches porn. I feel it would be invading his privacy, and shaming him if I expected him to stop. We discussed and I told him that I think it his business and I don't feel any different about him. Not do I feel less respect for him. I don't understand everything so I let it go as one of the misteries of life. :=/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's interesting to note that a study was done comparing porn actresses vs non-porn actresses and the porn actresses on average don't deviate that much from what the average woman is like. The biggest difference is weight, but the average american woman is obese. Interestingly, despite the stereotype, the typical American woman is twice as likely to be a blonde.

Here's the study (NSFW but not obscene):

Deep Inside - A Study of 10,000 Porn Stars | Jon Millward - Blog


----------



## BrockLanders

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, how about....
> 
> If men don't attach emotion to sex, why get upset if their wives cheat? After all, it's "just sex" right?
> 
> FTR, I don't think that myself. For me, sex and emotions are connected...same for my husband. Yes, I know, this makes him unusual. But I love that he's different.


You don't get it. They believe it's just sex for them, because it mostly is. Call it a double standard but it's wired into the brain and that's the way they feel. BTW regarding your husband, we're speaking basic tendencies here, there's a huge gray area.


----------



## always_alone

BrockLanders said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here... It seems a bit solipcistic, could you rephrase it outside the context of yourself?


You said "Most men do not attach as much emotion to sex as women do."

If this is true, then why should any woman believe that sex with her is any more important to her SO than masturbation to a porn star? Is it only because she is 'live'?


----------



## BrockLanders

always_alone said:


> You said "Most men do not attach as much emotion to sex as women do."
> 
> If this is true, then why should any woman believe that sex with her is any more important to her SO than masturbation to a porn star? Is it only because she is 'live'?


I would assume it because he is being loyal to you and you're a real person, not a collection of images. The sex act itself isn't so much different between the people.


----------



## Maricha75

ozymandias said:


> It's interesting because you chose correctly.
> 
> Yes, arguably the OP may be guilty of infidelity in the definition four sense of the word. Depending on the promises he's made and the expectations they've set about pornography in their marriage, he may indeed have betrayed her trust. This is not what his wife has accused him of though. His first post says "My W considers it the same as a physical relationship". He is being accused of infidelity in the definition one sense of the word.
> 
> Seriously... If the OPs wife told one of their peers they were getting a divorce because of "infidelity", which sense of the word would they assume she meant?


Likely, they would think he meant that it was because he was having sex with someone else (or that she was). The thing is, that happens regarding emotional cheating as well. Often, in the "real world", when someone says the words "emotional affair", people get a blank look and ask "wtf are you talking about?". When explained to them, they say things like "I don't understand what the problem is. It's not like they had sex..." Does it make it any less of an affair just because a penis wasn't stuck into a vagina? No, it doesn't. It's still cheating. It's still devastating.


----------



## Maricha75

BrockLanders said:


> You don't get it. They believe it's just sex for them, because it mostly is. Call it a double standard but it's wired into the brain and that's the way they feel. *BTW regarding your husband, we're speaking basic tendencies here, there's a huge gray area.*


You said regarding my husband... could you elaborate on this, please? Or are you saying it's basic tendencies of others, compared to him?


----------



## richie33

Having a EA or PA is on the same level as looking at porn? It's all cheating right?


----------



## BrockLanders

Maricha75 said:


> You said regarding my husband... could you elaborate on this, please? Or are you saying it's basic tendencies of others, compared to him?


More of the latter, probably most men aren't like this but there are plenty who are and it's by no means unusual.


----------



## Maricha75

richie33 said:


> Having a EA or PA is on the same level as looking at porn? It's all cheating right?


What would your wife say? Her opinion, in your marriage, is the only one that matters, not ours.


----------



## ALotOnMyMind

Catherine602 said:


> Shortly after we were married, I found out my husband watched porn. I had not watched it. I felt sorry for the women in that industry. I read that many of them are abuse survivors and very young and impressionable. I felt the young women were talked into doing porn and would regret it when they got older. No one cares about the effect or sees them as human. They are just useful for a year or two.


That may be true. I'm not sure how many are coerced into it vs choose it as a way to make some side money vs choose it as a career.



Catherine602 said:


> My husband invited me to watch porn with him after i found out. That was the worse thing he could have done. In fact, wish i never saw it. I felt terrible afterwards for several reasons. First, I was more convinced than ever, that the pathology and innocence of these girls were used for the profit of the pornographers. I also became self-concious about how I looked for the first ever. I compared my actions during sex to these girls. It was nothing like these porn actresses.


Women's behaviors during sex vary widely. It seems to me that most porn exaggerates the woman's reaction. But why would this make you feel self conscious about your reaction or how you look? There is no rule or expectation that you should look or act like those girls. They act that way and look that way for the viewer's entertainment. 



Catherine602 said:


> The most disturbing was that the girls appeared to be teens and had perfect slim bodies. In comparison, i saw imperfections that I did not see before. I compared my body type to the teens. I looked like the porn actresses when I was 18 but I filled out. I assume my husband likes that body type and is settling for me.


Why do you assume he wants or prefers that body type? Why would you assume he is settling for you? Porn actors are expected to look a certain way for the viewers' entertainment. Did you know there is a class of porn featuring obese women? Did you know there is a class of porn featuring elderly people? Different people like different things; there is no "one right way" to look or act. Your husband married you, not the porn actress.



Catherine602 said:


> There is nothing he can say to convince me otherwise. He would not be able to get off watching these girls if he did not prefer them.


Does he fail to get off with you? If so, then there is a problem. But if he does get off with you, then there is probably no problem.



Catherine602 said:


> That's the effect of porn for me. It effects many relationships, it is insidious. The effect on the wife is often dismissed or porn use is jutified.


Why is it insidious? Why does it effect the wife in any negative manner when it isn't used as an addiction or in a perverse manner?



Catherine602 said:


> Telling a women that porn gives a man the veriety he needs is not something that should be shared.


Why? Doesn't the woman also have needs for some variety? Is the woman always expected to sexually satisfy the man in every way? Is it better for the man to just hide the truth and go unsatisfied? Is it better for the woman who wants a little variety to also hide the truth and continue unsatisfied? What if this dissatisfaction causes resentment and anger? Is that ok too, in order to continue to spare the spouse's irrational feelings?



Catherine602 said:


> Most post on TAM's numerous porn threads, justify a mans right to look at porn for the most part. Women who don't like it are controlling. The only time I have read of men acknowledging that it is a problem in their relationship is when their wives stop having sex as a result.
> 
> These are my feelings. They may or may not match everyone's reality but they are my reality. The OP ask for womens opinion. I honored his request in the hope that it will help him.
> 
> BTW. My husband watches porn. I feel it would be invading his privacy, and shaming him if I expected him to stop. We discussed and I told him that I think it his business and I don't feel any different about him. Not do I feel less respect for him. I don't understand everything so I let it go as one of the misteries of life. :=/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But slowly you will build resentment because secretly you do not accept it.


----------



## always_alone

BrockLanders said:


> You don't get it. They believe it's just sex for them, because it mostly is. Call it a double standard but it's wired into the brain and that's the way they feel. BTW regarding your husband, we're speaking basic tendencies here, there's a huge gray area.


Oh, but you're wrong. We do get it. It's a complete double standard. Men get to use up women simply because they want to.

But when you venture into the sexless marriage threads, all of a sudden the tune is so different. It isn't emotionless, then. No, men need sex to build intimacy. 

Or is this just a bunch of hooey designed to manipulate women into turning on the sex taps?


----------



## TiggyBlue

richie33 said:


> Having a EA or PA is on the same level as looking at porn? It's all cheating right?


For some it is. In a open marriage sex with others isn't cheating for many it is, everyone has a different and different circumstances it's not black or white.


----------



## Maricha75

always_alone said:


> Oh, but you're wrong. We do get it. It's a complete double standard. *Men get to use up women simply because they want to.*
> 
> But when you venture into the sexless marriage threads, all of a sudden the tune is so different. It isn't emotionless, then. No, men need sex to build intimacy.
> 
> Or is this just a bunch of hooey designed to manipulate women into turning on the sex taps?


Hold on there. Not all men are like this, AA, as I pointed out about my own husband, and even other ladies on the board have pointed out about their husbands/SOs. I'm first to admit my husband is NOT perfect, but he also is not one who would manipulate me, nor anyone else, into getting what he wants. And I have to ask, AA... if your SO is really THAT BAD, WHY are you still with him?!?!


----------



## ozymandias

always_alone said:


> I used to think my SO was different from most men because he always told me that he believed in women's equality, yada yada, yada, blah, blah, blah, and never bothered to tell me that he's perfectly happy to just use up women and throw them in the trashcan when he is done.


I do believe in women's equality. When a woman consents to something, I give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she's done it with the same amount of agency that a man would have. I don't assume that because she's consented to something I wouldn't that she's a opiate addict or trafficked or that her children are being held at gunpoint off camera.


----------



## BrockLanders

always_alone said:


> Oh, but you're wrong. We do get it. It's a complete double standard. Men get to use up women simply because they want to.
> 
> But when you venture into the sexless marriage threads, all of a sudden the tune is so different. It isn't emotionless, then. No, men need sex to build intimacy.
> 
> Or is this just a bunch of hooey designed to manipulate women into turning on the sex taps?


No, men need sex to build confidence and ego. Maybe that's what I can take from this. Men masturbating or hiring porn star escorts aren't getting satisfaction from knowing that someone wants sex from them. That's the difference. 

I will also tell you that most women have no clue about a man's sex drive. None. I will believe women understand a man's sex drive when even a solidly average woman is rejected 19 times out of 20 by someone with an equal sex rank. I'll believe it when I see women patronizing prostitues, going to adult theatres and watching and deriving pleasure from porn that caters to men.

Don't want to take it from me? Okay, take it from a woman, a radical lesbian feminist who spend 18 months living as a male and as a result needed to be committed to a mental institution:

Self-Made Man: One Woman's Year Disguised as a Man: Norah Vincent: 9780143038702: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## richie33

I am not defending porn use. If both parties agree its ok for their marriage than more power to them. But my problem is the word " cheating".


----------



## always_alone

always_alone said:


> You said "Most men do not attach as much emotion to sex as women do."
> 
> If this is true, then why should any woman believe that sex with her is any more important to her SO than masturbation to a porn star? Is it only because she is 'live'?
> 
> 
> 
> BrockLanders said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would assume it because he is being loyal to you and you're a real person, not a collection of images. The sex act itself isn't so much different between the people.
Click to expand...

I think I'm getting too close to threadjacking, so let me say one last thing to bring this back to the OPs question:

This attitude is, for me and possibly some other women, exactly the reason why porn is sometimes likened to physical cheating. If what differentiates me from porn is that I am "not a collection of images", I am, quite frankly going to assume that I am simply a sex toy of a different variety, and that any other sex toy would work equally well for you.


----------



## ozymandias

Maricha75 said:


> Likely, they would think he meant that it was because he was having sex with someone else (or that she was). The thing is, that happens regarding emotional cheating as well. Often, in the "real world", when someone says the words "emotional affair", people get a blank look and ask "wtf are you talking about?". When explained to them, they say things like "I don't understand what the problem is. It's not like they had sex..." Does it make it any less of an affair just because a penis wasn't stuck into a vagina? No, it doesn't. It's still cheating. It's still devastating.


Agreed that it doesn't take PIV to be cheating. It at least takes another living sentient person though.


----------



## always_alone

ozymandias said:


> I do believe in women's equality. When a woman consents to something, I give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she's done it with the same amount of agency that a man would have. I don't assume that because she's consented to something I wouldn't that she's a opiate addict or trafficked or that her children are being held at gunpoint off camera.


Ah, yes, the "I support women's rights more than you do because i support their right to choose the sex trade" argument. I was expecting this one to come up.

I support the rights of sex trade workers more than most people do, and am quite aware that many "choose" to be involved. But please, let's not pretend that women discovering that their bodies are marketable commodities and taking advantage of that has anything to do with women's equality or empowerment. It is age old, and such women are usually used, abused, and end up in the trash heap of society.

Except for the 3 super famous ones that you are now about to tell me about, and how much money they made.


----------



## BrockLanders

always_alone said:


> I think I'm getting too close to threadjacking, so let me say one last thing to bring this back to the OPs question:
> 
> This attitude is, for me and possibly some other women, exactly the reason why porn is sometimes likened to physical cheating. If what differentiates me from porn is that I am "not a collection of images", I am, quite frankly going to assume that I am simply a sex toy of a different variety, and that any other sex toy would work equally well for you.


Sorry you need to be a unique snowflake in order to feel love from your husband but men are simply not women. Men produce little to no oxytocin and do not feel the emotional connection to women while having sex like women do. Think about it in practical terms, what evolutionary benefit would be derived from this?


----------



## BrockLanders

always_alone said:


> Ah, yes, the "I support women's rights more than you do because i support their right to choose the sex trade" argument. I was expecting this one to come up.
> 
> I support the rights of sex trade workers more than most people do, and am quite aware that many "choose" to be involved. But please, let's not pretend that women discovering that their bodies are marketable commodities and taking advantage of that has anything to do with women's equality or empowerment. It is age old, and such women are usually used, abused, and end up in the trash heap of society.
> 
> Except for the 3 super famous ones that you are now about to tell me about, and how much money they made.


Tell me how you got from A to B. You support the rights of sex trade workers to be thrown into the trash heap of society?


----------



## ALotOnMyMind

husbandinwaiting said:


> I need to understand female view on porn. My W considers it the same as a physical relationship, and has used it to justify inappropriate behavior. Please help me understand. Need to figure out how to get past this.


Anyway, getting back to the OP, it all really boils down to what you and her talked about regarding porn before marriage. Did you and her talk about porn before the marriage? If so, what did you and her decide about it? Did she feel that porn was the same as cheating? 

It sounds to me like the both of you never clearly discussed the issue before marriage, and now you and her are finding out how you both really feel about it. In this case there are only 4 solutions:

1. Never look at porn again.
2. Convince her to change her mind.
3. Continue to look at porn and continue to have marital problems.
4. Divorce.


----------



## Catherine602

ALotOnMyMind said:


> That may be true. I'm not sure how many are coerced into it vs choose it as a way to make some side money vs choose it as a career.
> Women's behaviors during sex vary widely. It seems to me that most porn exaggerates the woman's reaction. But why would this make you feel self conscious about your reaction or how you look? There is no rule or expectation that you should look or act like those girls. They act that way and look that way for the viewer's entertainment.
> Why do you assume he wants or prefers that body type? Why would you assume he is settling for you? Porn actors are expected to look a certain way for the viewers' entertainment. Did you know there is a class of porn featuring obese women? Did you know there is a class of porn featuring elderly people? Different people like different things; there is no "one right way" to look or act. Your husband married you, not the porn actress.
> 
> Does he fail to get off with you? If so, then there is a problem. But if he does get off with you, then there is probably no problem.
> 
> Why is it insidious? Why does it effect the wife in any negative manner when it isn't used as an addiction or in a perverse manner?
> 
> Why? Doesn't the woman also have needs for some variety? Is the woman always expected to sexually satisfy the man in every way? Is it better for the man to just hide the truth and go unsatisfied? Is it better for the woman who wants a little variety to also hide the truth and continue unsatisfied? What if this dissatisfaction causes resentment and anger? Is that ok too, in order to continue to spare the spouse's irrational feelings?


How would you feel if you expressed something you felt and your wife told you it was irrational? I will give you very good advice - don't say it even if you think it. There are consequences for not listening. 

Men have more problems with this than women. If you do it here you, it is probably your accustomed mode of communication. When someone expresses feeling that make you uncomfortable do you attempt to shut them down? . 

There are many post of men whose wife blindsided them and walked out. They realize that they failed to listen to her but it is often too late. 

Let me float a fictitious scenario by you. 

Lets say your wife try's repeatedly to get you just to listen to her feelings without negative judgements or telling her how she should feel. You don't listen because you don't think it is important. Eventually, she stops telling you what she feels; she concludes its hopeless and resents you. She won't stop feeling but she will not share them with Mr know-it-all. 

She is likely to shut you out. Lets say you ask her feelings about sex maybe about a fantasy. Strange that you are interested in her feelings about a subject thats important to you. She is not forthcoming. She shut you out years ago. She is used to keeping her feelings to herself. She probably feels you only think about is sex. She may say it. It may seem that way because you don't want to hear about her feelings about much else. 

She may stop enjoying sex with a man who thinks she has irrational feelings and dismisses them. It may be hard for her to be vulnerable with a man who is not interested in what she feels. She may feel that he is not interested in her as a person but he is interested in sex. She may or may not express "all you want me for is sex". He tells her that is irrational. 

When sexual problems start, you have the talk with her. Nothing changes even though you express your feelings of loneliness, frustration and depressed. How can she be so cruel to negate your feelings. 

You dont have to agree but you should listen attentively without zoning out. You don't need to agree that she is right and you are wrong. Thats black and white thinking when there are ample shades of gray to work with. Don't make negative characterizations about her feelings. You don't need to tell how unreasonable she is and suggest how she should feel. 

You don't have to take my advice. Just remember you get what you give in a relationship. Don't complain when your birds fly back and nest in your chimney.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BrockLanders

Catherine602 said:


> How would you feel if you expressed something you felt and your wife told you it was irrational? I will give you very good advice - don't say it even if you think it. There are consequences for not listening.
> 
> Men have more problems with this than women. If you do it here you, it is probably your accustomed mode of communication. When someone expresses feeling that make you uncomfortable do you attempt to shut them down? .
> 
> There are many post of men whose wife blindsided them and walked out. They realize that they failed to listen to her but it is often too late.
> 
> Let me float a fictitious scenario by you.
> 
> Lets say your wife try's repeatedly to get you just to listen to her feelings without negative judgements or telling her how she should feel. You don't listen because you don't think it is important. Eventually, she stops telling you what she feels; she concludes its hopeless and resents you. She won't stop feeling but she will not share them with Mr know-it-all.
> 
> She is likely to shut you out. Lets say you ask her feelings about sex maybe about a fantasy. Strange that you are interested in her feelings about a subject thats important to you. She is not forthcoming. She shut you out years ago. She is used to keeping her feelings to herself. She probably feels you only think about is sex. She may say it. It may seem that way because you don't want to hear about her feelings about much else.
> 
> She may stop enjoying sex with a man who thinks she has irrational feelings and dismisses them. It may be hard for her to be vulnerable with a man who is not interested in what she feels. She may feel that he is not interested in her as a person but he is interested in sex. She may or may not express "all you want me for is sex". He tells her that is irrational.
> 
> When sexual problems start, you have the talk with her. Nothing changes even though you express your feelings of loneliness, frustration and depressed. How can she be so cruel to negate your feelings.
> 
> You dont have to agree but you should listen attentively without zoning out. You don't need to agree that she is right and you are wrong. Thats black and white thinking when there are ample shades of gray to work with. Don't make negative characterizations about her feelings. You don't need to tell how unreasonable she is and suggest how she should feel.
> 
> You don't have to take my advice. Just remember you get what you give in a relationship. Don't complain when your birds fly back and nest in your chimney.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wish I was gay.


----------



## Maricha75

BrockLanders said:


> I wish I was gay.


Oh, yea, as if THAT would solve ALL your problem...


----------



## TCSRedhead

BrockLanders said:


> Sorry you need to be a unique snowflake in order to feel love from your husband but men are simply not women. Men produce little to no oxytocin and do not feel the emotional connection to women while having sex like women do. Think about it in practical terms, what evolutionary benefit would be derived from this?


Wow, harsh much? I really couldn't give a f one way or another about porn but I'm glad my Hub doesn't view my silly little emotions in this fashion.

Now, can we get back on topic? OP wanted women's perspective on porn and assistance with some behavior from his wife that he was having trouble understanding. 

I think we understand some women hate porn, some love porn and some are indifferent.


----------



## BrockLanders

Maricha75 said:


> Oh, yea, as if THAT would solve ALL your problem...



Okay, gay with a few more inches.


----------



## richie33

BrockLanders said:


> I wish I was gay.


Dennis Leary on the TV show Rescue Me said being gay ain't so bad...its all bj's and baseball. Got a kick out of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

One more thing. The OP asked for female viewpoint about porn. I and many other women shared there feelings. 

Thats what he wanted. He may glean some info that would help him solve this problem 

For his sake, lets not turn this into a debate about porn. 

I will take my own advice too.


----------



## Catherine602

BrockLanders said:


> I wish I was gay.


Are you joking? Why do you feel that way from reading my post? Never mind. Start your own thread to discuss your feelings.


----------



## Theseus

husbandinwaiting said:


> I need to understand female view on porn. My W considers it the same as a physical relationship, and has used it to justify inappropriate behavior. Please help me understand. Need to figure out how to get past this.


The same as a physical relationship? OMG. Ask her if you can catch a disease or get pregnant while watching porn.

What is the "inappropriate behavior"? I haven't seen where you have answered that in this thread. Is she planning a revenge affair because you are looking at porn??


----------



## Theseus

ScarletBegonias said:


> But for the average nice girl,it's just a case of wanting to be the only source of her man's fantasies bc that's what makes her feel safe and attractive.



Then to be fair, she could also give up watching soap operas or reading romance novels, since her husband *also* wants to be the only source of her fantasies. How about that? 

In fact, that would be my advice to the OP. If porn is the same as a physical affair, so are any sources of your wife's fantasy life. Is she willing to give that up?


----------



## Theseus

Maricha75 said:


> Dude, she is a liar by *YOUR* definition. Many women DO see it as cheating. Just because YOU don't doesn't mean YOU are right about it. YOU are right about it for YOU, not for ANYONE else. Back off!


She can believe the sky is green and the grass is blue if she wants to, but to call it cheating is so far off the reality track that I suspect she has serious mental health issues. In fact, I agree with you, she isn't a "liar". She could simply be mentally ill and doesn't know any better.


----------



## Theseus

CristianoRonaldo7 said:


> Yes, what porn-viewers need to understand is that the woman they are lusting after, is also somebody's daughter... A daughter who is most likely loved very much by her parents, and are probably already upset about the fact that she is participating in it.


Could be. But I also lust after women I see in R-rated movies, in Victoria's Secret catalogs, and at the beach. Should I be upset that they are somebody's daughter?

As a related note, I also don't think it's productive for some people to inject Christian values into this discussion unless the OP and his wife are professed Christians. And BTW, I say that as someone who is a Christian himself.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I don't see it as physical relationship, but I would be self conscious of my own body and it would most likely lower my self esteem.
> 
> My h surprising does not look at porn. My ex h had a porn addiction. It did hurt my feelings since my ex h always called me worthless, "fat"(which I was underweight at the time) and every other name in the book.
> 
> I know that most men look at porn, but if its not an addiction I'm okay with it.


Omg. I can't understand that mentality. I have learned that just because you provide, Mostly honor and cherish your wife does not necessarily make you a good husband. I couldn't imagine verbally abusing my wife like that, but then It didn't take too much effort to justify porn.


----------



## BrockLanders

Catherine602 said:


> Are you joking? Why do you feel that way from reading my post? Never mind. Start your own thread to discuss your feelings.


I say that because I believe what you say to be a common viewpoint for women. Thus, it's rational for me to listen and entertain irrational beliefs in order to maximize the amount of sex I have. You have no problem with this? At the same time you claim not to want to be sexually objectified? How can these two concepts exist together?

I've said it over and over. There might be a few men here who like to shine their halos and say they're not like that, but most men do not equivicate sex with love. It's just not in our DNA. Now, you say men should pay attention to the feelings of women and that the OP was eliciting thoughts from women, which he was. I was trying to provide balance, as many women who are here are jaded either through being burned or being part of the religious substrate that occupies this forum. As a test, I ran a google query that looked for women looking for mens input on issues. Would you like to take a gander as to the gender breakdown of the threads? You want men to come to your aid while you ignore the worldview of men.

Just to show I'm not threadjacking, I think the OP should talk to his wife. Was pornography a dealbreaker at the beginning of their marriage? If not why is it now? Does she care to entertain what the male sex drive entails? All food for thought.

OP, look at how few men came to this thread. They knew it would be another futile war of the genders. That says something in of itself.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

always_alone said:


> I think I'm getting too close to threadjacking, so let me say one last thing to bring this back to the OPs question:
> 
> This attitude is, for me and possibly some other women, exactly the reason why porn is sometimes likened to physical cheating. If what differentiates me from porn is that I am "not a collection of images", I am, quite frankly going to assume that I am simply a sex toy of a different variety, and that any other sex toy would work equally well for you.


This thread went off track long ago, but it is a lively discussion. Gives plenty to contemplate.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

BrockLanders said:


> Sorry you need to be a unique snowflake in order to feel love from your husband but men are simply not women. Men produce little to no oxytocin and do not feel the emotional connection to women while having sex like women do. Think about it in practical terms, what evolutionary benefit would be derived from this?


I've always felt the best sex did involve an emotional connection. Husband and wife are supposed to have the tightest of bonds. Otherwise you might as well have perpetual one night stands.


----------



## Maricha75

Theseus said:


> Could be. But *I also lust after women I see in R-rated movies, in Victoria's Secret catalogs, and at the beach.* Should I be upset that they are somebody's daughter?
> 
> As a related note, I also don't think it's productive for some people to inject Christian values into this discussion unless the OP and his wife are professed Christians. And BTW,* I say that as someone who is a Christian himself*.


Really? Wow.... Sorry, I cannot even fathom someone saying those two things in the same breath.

The one thing I would agree on... I would like to know from OP....WHAT IS HER INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR???? I do agree with you that it seems OP is avoiding answering that question, whether intentional or not.


----------



## BrockLanders

husbandinwaiting said:


> I've always felt the best sex did involve an emotional connection. Husband and wife are supposed to have the tightest of bonds. Otherwise you might as well have perpetual one night stands.


Of course because it really is the best when you are in your comfort zone and you feel free. Also if it's someone you really love you want to provide them pleasure. Still, it's not the same thing women feel. Perpetual one night stands would feel lonely after a while because they're cheap. You need to learn how to understand your feelings as a man. DO NOT BE SHAMED FOR WATCHING PORN. Have you felt emotional feelings for these women? Of course not, they barely exist. They're props.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

ALotOnMyMind said:


> Anyway, getting back to the OP, it all really boils down to what you and her talked about regarding porn before marriage. Did you and her talk about porn before the marriage? If so, what did you and her decide about it? Did she feel that porn was the same as cheating?
> 
> It sounds to me like the both of you never clearly discussed the issue before marriage, and now you and her are finding out how you both really feel about it. In this case there are only 4 solutions:
> 
> 1. Never look at porn again.
> 2. Convince her to change her mind.
> 3. Continue to look at porn and continue to have marital problems.
> 4. Divorce.


We did, and I knew it bothered her. Didn't realize how bad. Should have explained my needs a long time ago. Not necessarily sex, hell I would take a good snuggle. I've chosen no. 1. Wished she would believe my commitment.


----------



## BrockLanders

Maricha75 said:


> Really? Wow.... Sorry, I cannot even fathom someone saying those two things in the same breath.
> 
> The one thing I would agree on... I would like to know from OP....WHAT IS HER INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR???? I do agree with you that it seems OP is avoiding answering that question, whether intentional or not.


Before porn was ubiquitious, men relied on leingerie ads or their own personal spank bank. As someone who grew up in the 80s I can tell you that there used to be a memory component to this that was lost by the comodidization of porn. I used to see things and spank to them later on. Then porn came around and erased all that. If you want to defend the minds of men then go do so. Otherwise what are you really doing?


----------



## TiggyBlue

I think she wanted to help him with his question.


----------



## richie33

She has a right to be upset husbandinwaiting, you had the talk before marriage and you broke that promise. Give up the porn for your marriage cause that's the most important thing. But don't allow your needs not to be meet cause of this. That will lead to resentment and it will build and build.


----------



## BrockLanders

TiggyBlue said:


> I think she wanted to help him with his question.


Please define the pronouns you're using. Otherwise it makes no sense.


----------



## Maricha75

BrockLanders said:


> Please define the pronouns you're using. Otherwise it makes no sense.


I believe she was referring to me, trying to help Theseus with his question, which the OP has yet to answer for anyone. It helps to know what his wife's inappropriate behavior is, compared to the porn usage (which he now has stated was discussed before marriage anyway, so he knew how she felt about it).

But Brock, I know you were replying to the part I said about not even being able to fathom a Christian lusting after other women. And I meant it. The Christians men with whom I regularly associate live what they believe. I guess I just know different professed Christians.... both men and women.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Without knowing what the inappropriate behavior it's hard to is she trying to shift blame for something or simply detaching.


----------



## BrockLanders

Maricha75 said:


> I believe she was referring to me, trying to help Theseus with his question, which the OP has yet to answer for anyone. It helps to know what his wife's inappropriate behavior is, compared to the porn usage (which he now has stated was discussed before marriage anyway, so he knew how she felt about it).
> 
> But Brock, I know you were replying to the part I said about not even being able to fathom a Christian lusting after other women. And I meant it. The Christians men with whom I regularly associate live what they believe. I guess I just know different professed Christians.... both men and women.


We just live in different cultures, but what I said about the pronouns was sincere. Sometimes with the internet you dont know which way is where.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

Maricha75 said:


> Really? Wow.... Sorry, I cannot even fathom someone saying those two things in the same breath.
> 
> The one thing I would agree on... I would like to know from OP....WHAT IS HER INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR???? I do agree with you that it seems OP is avoiding answering that question, whether intentional or not.


I am. I'm at liberty to discuss anything about me, but I must assume that she will eventually grab my tablet and find this forum. I don't want to make things worse by airing her dirty laundry. I already had to delete one thread cause I said too much. There are some boundary issues for me. Only thing that matters is that her behavior is seriously testing my commitment to our marriage, although I have every intention of going the distance. Please understand.


----------



## Maricha75

BrockLanders said:


> We just live in different cultures, but what I said about the pronouns was sincere. Sometimes with the internet you dont know which way is where.


It's not just cultures, Brock. The denomination to which I belong is likely very different from the one (if any, because I know some choose not to be members of a church, just followers of God) Theseus may.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

richie33 said:


> She has a right to be upset husbandinwaiting, you had the talk before marriage and you broke that promise. Give up the porn for your marriage cause that's the most important thing. But don't allow your needs not to be meet cause of this. That will lead to resentment and it will build and build.


Resentment is a big issue. Trying to learn to let it go. Can't afford it anymore.

My physical wants are going to be off in hibernation for awhile. Took 15 years to get here, might take a little while to get out.


----------



## Maricha75

husbandinwaiting said:


> I am. I'm at liberty to discuss anything about me, but I must assume that she will eventually grab my tablet and find this forum. I don't want to make things worse by airing her dirty laundry. I already had to delete one thread cause I said too much. There are some boundary issues for me. Only thing that matters is that her behavior is seriously testing my commitment to our marriage, although I have every intention of going the distance. Please understand.


Ok, here, let's make it simple... did this behavior surface before or after discovering your porn usage? And, I think, with your cryptic reply, we can kind of fill in the blanks now, or have a pretty good idea what it would be. Either way, if it's what I think, there is no excuse regardless... whether porn is in the picture or not.


----------



## BrockLanders

Maricha75 said:


> It's not just cultures, Brock. The denomination to which I belong is likely very different from the one (if any, because I know some choose not to be members of a church, just followers of God) Theseus may.


It may be very different from what I know, but truth be told, I never met a Protestant until college. Everyone I knew was Catholic, Jewish or Greek Orthodox. And, none of us were religious, it was totally cultural. Flyover American religiosity us pretty uncomfortable to me. For us it was a tie to the old country, thats all.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, here, let's make it simple... did this behavior surface before or after discovering your porn usage? And, I think, with your cryptic reply, we can kind of fill in the blanks now, or have a pretty good idea what it would be. Either way, if it's what I think, there is no excuse regardless... whether porn is in the picture or not.


j

No. She has confronted me several times. I think the problems really started when she would 'catch' me, but didn't bother to complain.


----------



## ASummersDay

I can't speak for all women, and certainly what I'm about to say is not a reflection of my own personal views. But if I were to guess, I would guess that your wife feels that you are cheating when you view porn because you are deriving sexual gratification by viewing other women's bodies.

It seems similar to the thought that some women hold that their husband going to a strip club and getting a table dance is cheating. It may be purely visual, but because the man is engaged in a sexually enticing experience not involving their partner, some women get the same "feeling" as if there had been sexual contact.

Please don't misunderstand and think I am saying the above is rational or that I am expressing my own opinion on the subject. I'm just making a guess at what your wife may be experiencing.

Make no mistake, though: if your wife has done something in retaliation that reeeeeeally crosses the line, she should not be excused for her behavior. You made a mistake and are willing to change your actions for her. Good on you for making that effort. But, if you allow her to trample on you because of a mistake you made (especially if you truly didn't realize how hurt she would be) then that is an unhealthy dynamic.


----------



## whataboutthis?

husbandinwaiting said:


> Straight tube videos.


Well the good thing is that it is not interactive. Still, your wife is hurt by it. I commend you for posting here and acknowledging both her feelings and your commitment to honoring her feelings. 

There is much debate on this thread about what constitutes infidelity. To me it's a matter of the simple fact that your wife is hurt by an action. I imagine this hurt stems from her feeling that you prefer what you are seeing on the videos to her. That is a terrible feeling. I know. I'm dealing with it myself. But I'm dealing with much more (contacting escorts, paid subscriptions to adult dating sites, and lack of transparency about what he's done). 

Truth is I'll never know. But, when he was just looking at porn (or so I thought that's all it was) it hurt me. I felt inadequate because he did it in lieu of wanting to be with me. I did not consider it infidelity but it hurt terribly. 

I did not stand my ground. We didn't communicate. I let it distance us. He moved into contact as some point. Not sure when. If I had stood my ground on how it made me feel perhaps he wouldn't have allowed it to escalate into a sexual addiction and move into contacting women (and more I suspect). Now we are separated.

So, this could be a moment of her standing her ground and letting you know it hurts her before it escalates into territory that is unrecoverable. Again I commend you for seeking opinions and taking your wife's feelings seriously. Best to you both.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

MrsDavey said:


> I can't speak for all women, and certainly what I'm about to say is not a reflection of my own personal views. But if I were to guess, I would guess that your wife feels that you are cheating when you view porn because you are deriving sexual gratification by viewing other women's bodies.
> 
> It seems similar to the thought that some women hold that their husband going to a strip club and getting a table dance is cheating. It may be purely visual, but because the man is engaged in a sexually enticing experience not involving their partner, some women get the same "feeling" as if there had been sexual contact.
> 
> Please don't misunderstand and think I am saying the above is rational or that I am expressing my own opinion on the subject. I'm just making a guess at what your wife may be experiencing.
> 
> Make no mistake, though: if your wife has done something in retaliation that reeeeeeally crosses the line, she should not be excused for her behavior. You made a mistake and are willing to change your actions for her. Good on you for making that effort. But, if you allow her to trample on you because of a mistake you made (especially if you truly didn't realize how hurt she would be) then that is an unhealthy dynamic.


I will not own her mistakes this time. It has been my pattern in past. I'll own mine, and I'm close to getting past blame.


----------



## Maricha75

husbandinwaiting said:


> j
> 
> No. She has confronted me several times. I think the problems really started when she would 'catch' me, but didn't bother to complain.


Ok, just to see if we have this straight.

1. You discussed before marrying, so you knew she didn't like it.

2. She confronted you, earlier on, but you continued anyway, knowing she didn't like it...again, something you discussed before, so it's not like you were blindsided.

3. After confronting you multiple times, she just stopped... and I am guessing a disconnect really began then (if not beforehand).

4. Now there is her inappropriate behavior.

So, if I have the timeline correct.... She gave up. She tried telling you time and again how she felt about it, but you didn't listen. You continued on, because you enjoy it, putting her feelings out of your mind. When she realized it was futile to continue trying to talk to you about it, she just gave up... and now you are taking notice of HER behavior (whatever it is)... because she stopped harping on you? Sound about right?


----------



## Theseus

husbandinwaiting said:


> I am. I'm at liberty to discuss anything about me, but I must assume that she will eventually grab my tablet and find this forum. I don't want to make things worse by airing her dirty laundry. I already had to delete one thread cause I said too much. There are some boundary issues for me. Only thing that matters is that her behavior is seriously testing my commitment to our marriage, although I have every intention of going the distance. Please understand.


That's your choice, although your fear is a little silly. There is nothing in any of your posts that would identify who you two are in real life, so it shouldn't matter what "dirty laundry" you air here.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, just to see if we have this straight.
> 
> 1. You discussed before marrying, so you knew she didn't like it.
> 
> 2. She confronted you, earlier on, but you continued anyway, knowing she didn't like it...again, something you discussed before, so it's not like you were blindsided.
> 
> 3. After confronting you multiple times, she just stopped... and I am guessing a disconnect really began then (if not beforehand).
> 
> 4. Now there is her inappropriate behavior.
> 
> So, if I have the timeline correct.... She gave up. She tried telling you time and again how she felt about it, but you didn't listen. You continued on, because you enjoy it, putting her feelings out of your mind. When she realized it was futile to continue trying to talk to you about it, she just gave up... and now you are taking notice of HER behavior (whatever it is)... because she stopped harping on you? Sound about right?


Close enough. Got myself into a pickle, and got the wake up call too late. Totally blindsided.


----------



## Maricha75

Theseus said:


> That's your choice, although your fear is a little silly. There is nothing in any of your posts that would identify who you two are in real life, so it shouldn't matter what "dirty laundry" you air here.


Especially if you log out after posting and don't save the login info to the browser.


----------



## Theseus

CristianoRonaldo7 said:


> I can not believe you said these two things in the same post...
> 
> Are you not aware of how contradictory that is?
> 
> EDIT: I really think you need to look up the definition of a Christian again...


I don't want to hijack this thread but some of you are on such a sanctimonious high horse that it's actually counter-productive to this discussion. 

I know this is a SHOCKER - but yes, like all heterosexual men, I lust after women. In fact, that is the very definition of heterosexual! 

If I was homosexual, would that be better for you? Look up that definition.

Lusting after women is NOT the same thing as sleeping with them. And yes, I know the Biblical verse about committing "adultery in your heart". Even if that applies here (and I think that phrase has been misunderstood), *nowhere does the OT or the NT suggest that lustful thoughts are on the same level as adultery* (which could be punished with death by stoning!!!)

In your view, should woman cover their entire body from head to toe to prevent such lustful thoughts? You may have Christianity confused with an entirely different religion.

In addition, no one is perfect except JC himself. Enough said.


----------



## Maricha75

husbandinwaiting said:


> Close enough. Got myself into a pickle, and got the wake up call too late. Totally blindsided.


Well, I can understand the sentiment behind retaliation, but I don't think it's right, regardless. FWIW, I'm sorry you find yourself in this predicament. So, you want to fix this as best you can, right? What are you willing to do to show you mean what you say, when trying to repair your marriage? I'm not asking if you are willing to give up porn. I mean is there anything else you can think of that will help show her you want to work this out? Counseling? Transparency? I'm not suggesting to become a doormat, so don't worry lol. I'm just curious what you plan to do to show you now "get it", and really hope it's not too late.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

Maricha75 said:


> Especially if you log out after posting and don't save the login info to the browser.


I'm not interested in trying to hide from her. That's the kind of what got me here. If she actually looked it would at least indicate she was interested.


----------



## Maricha75

Theseus said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread but some of you are on such a sanctimonious high horse that it's actually counter-productive to this discussion.
> 
> I know this is a SHOCKER - but yes, like all heterosexual men, I lust after women. In fact, that is the very definition of heterosexual!
> 
> If I was homosexual, would that be better for you? Look up that definition.
> 
> Lusting after women is NOT the same thing as sleeping with them. And yes, I know the Biblical verse about committing "adultery in your heart". Even if that applies here (and I think that phrase has been misunderstood), *nowhere does the OT or the NT suggest that lustful thoughts are on the same level as adultery* (which could be punished with death by stoning!!!)
> 
> In your view, should woman cover their entire body from head to toe to prevent such lustful thoughts? You may have Christianity confused with an entirely different religion.
> 
> In addition, no one is perfect except JC himself. Enough said.


1. I do not claim to be perfect. Never have.
2. Not all heterosexual men... scratch that, not all heterosexual CHRISTIAN men lust after women who are not their wives. Stop trying to justify your own actions by attempting to attach them to ALL heterosexual men.
3. So, how do YOU interpret the following verses?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matt. 5:27,28

"But each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 1Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." James 1: 14,15

"Do not lust in your heart after her beauty or let her captivate you with her eyes." Proverbs 6:25

“*I made a covenant with my eyes

not to look lustfully at a young woman.
*
2For what is our lot from God above,

our heritage from the Almighty on high?

3Is it not ruin for the wicked,

disaster for those who do wrong?

4Does he not see my ways

and count my every step?" Job 31:1-4

Sorry, but the Bible DOES say it is wrong to even look, whether you wish to acknowledge that or not is on you, not me.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

Maricha75 said:


> Well, I can understand the sentiment behind retaliation, but I don't think it's right, regardless. FWIW, I'm sorry you find yourself in this predicament. So, you want to fix this as best you can, right? What are you willing to do to show you mean what you say, when trying to repair your marriage? I'm not asking if you are willing to give up porn. I mean is there anything else you can think of that will help show her you want to work this out? Counseling? Transparency? I'm not suggesting to become a doormat, so don't worry lol. I'm just curious what you plan to do to show you now "get it", and really hope it's not too late.


I have no desire for retaliation, just understanding. 

I'm working on the whole package: physical, mental health, financial, even spiritual. She has seen some changes, but probably still questions my motivations, and doubts my resolve.


----------



## MSP

BrockLanders said:


> Men produce little to no oxytocin and do not feel the emotional connection to women while having sex like women do. Think about it in practical terms, what evolutionary benefit would be derived from this?


Wow, this is just so wrong.

Men do have less oxytocin receptors than women. However, there is one time when a man's oxytocin levels rise to match those of women: during orgasm. Sex is a bonding experience for men *even more than it is for women*.


----------



## Maricha75

husbandinwaiting said:


> I have no desire for retaliation, just understanding.
> 
> I'm working on the whole package: physical, mental health, financial, even spiritual. She has seen some changes, but probably still questions my motivations, and doubts my resolve.


Just don't give up. If this is truly what you want, to repair things with her, then don't stop.


----------



## Theseus

CristianoRonaldo7 said:


> Then what on Earth does this verse mean then???
> 
> "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
> 
> I think you're in denial...


And you failed to see where I had just addressed that very same verse? Did you even read my comment? But I'm the one in denial? Right. 

BTW, if you take that verse literally, then it wouldnt apply to lusting after unmarried women. In fact, during that period, adultery meant sometthing very different for men and women. Married men could certainly lust after unattached women, since they were allowed to have multiple wives!


----------



## Theseus

Maricha75 said:


> 1. I do not claim to be perfect. Never have.
> 2. Not all heterosexual men... scratch that, not all heterosexual CHRISTIAN men lust after women who are not their wives. Stop trying to justify your own actions by attempting to attach them to ALL heterosexual men.


You do realize that by definition, heterosexual men are attracted to women? And they don't magically become asexual toward everyone but their spouse.




> 3. So, how do YOU interpret the following verses?.


Whoa.. quoting multiple Bible verses is a do not enter sign due to severe thread hijack. See my answer to Christiano above. I'll be glad to debate that in another forum, but then be prepared to tell us why the wisest King Solomon, had 300 wives and 600 concubines...


----------



## Theseus

CristianoRonaldo7 said:


> You're talking nonsense.
> 
> The Bible speaks of men having multiple wives, but it never even once says that it is right or acceptable.



?? Sure it does. And certainly never says its wrong. Solomon was the most prolific, but not the only one by a long shot. The very founders of the religion in the OT all had multiple wives , including Abraham himself, Israel (Jacob), David, Moses, etc.



> You are twisting the Bible to suit your lifestyle, and this is something that frustrates me more than someone who chooses to just ignore the Bible altogether...


Quite the contrary, YOU are twisting the Bible to fit your personal views of marriage. The one man/one woman norm today does make sense but it was actually the ROMAN tradition, not the Jewish one. 



> You really don't know your Bible. That is clear.


I believe you dont know your Bible or your history, but regardless, don't try to push your religious views on the OP.


----------



## Theseus

CristianoRonaldo7 said:


> You can not be serious!
> 
> I never said that the bible doesn't speak of men having multiple wives. I said it DOES speak of it, but it never says that it is right, and it DOES say that it is wrong. I stand by my earlier statement.. You do not know your Bible.


OK, I would love to hear it. Please show me a verse, particularly in the OT, that says polygamy is wrong. Good luck with that. 



> And, you seem to have completely ignored the link I posted to an article that explains (very well) God's views on Solomon having multiple wives.


I didn't ignore it, but your link was very weak at best. And now I'm waiting for you to explain why the very founders of the religion (Abraham,Israel/Jacob, Moses, etc) all had multiple wives as well. And polygamy was not condemned, even after the excruciatingly detailed laws of Leviticus & Deuteronomy forbade just about everything else!


----------



## Theseus

CristianoRonaldo7 said:


> God's original purpose as stated in the Garden of Eden is monogamy—*one* man should marry *one* woman.
> 
> "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become *one* flesh" (Genesis 2:24).
> 
> It is true that the Bible doesn't say much in the way of condemning polygamy, but the above verse is more than enough. However, I am 99.99% sure that you will find a way to undermine that verse


I don't have to undermine it. You are adding your own modern ideas to that verse. It says that they become one flesh, but never says that it can happen only once. The ancients believed men could become one flesh with more than one woman. This includes Moses, who is traditionally believed to be the author of Genesis. 

Christiano, now that the thread has been fully hijacked, if you wish to continue this discussion, I recommend doing it by PM.


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## Ano

This thread has become a mess. 

OP, sit down with your wife and find out exactly what bothers her. Is it the fact that you watch porn? Is it the fact that you masturbate at all? If you stopped watching porn, would she care if you still masturbated without it?


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## Maricha75

Ano said:


> This thread has become a mess.
> 
> OP, sit down with your wife and find out exactly what bothers her. Is it the fact that you watch porn? Is it the fact that you masturbate at all? If you stopped watching porn, would she care if you still masturbated without it?


Ano, OP and I kinda touched on that in a previous post...when I made an approximate outline. Basically, the gist of it was he knew how she felt about porn, in general, from the start. She confronted him multiple times, then just stopped. Resentment built up, but she's basically given up on getting him to stop. Not quite sure when her inappropriate behavior began, but it appears it was in retaliation for him not taking her seriously before.

Question for the OP... you said you are working on bettering yourself, including spiritually. The word "Christian" was thrown around by a few of us in this thread (mostly during the threadjack(s). I am curious... are either of you Christian, or did you have Christian upbringing? It doesn't change my mind about what can be done to try to fix things, but it does give an idea where you are coming from. Even with her inappropriate behavior... Even we Christians do stupid, inappropriate things at times. However, that, in no way, excuses such behavior.


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## Ano

*Re: Re: Female viewpoint on porn needed...*



Maricha75 said:


> Ano, OP and I kinda touched on that in a previous post...when I made an approximate outline. Basically, the gist of it was he knew how she felt about porn, in general, from the start. She confronted him multiple times, then just stopped. Resentment built up, but she's basically given up on getting him to stop. Not quite sure when her inappropriate behavior began, but it appears it was in retaliation for him not taking her seriously before.
> 
> Question for the OP... you said you are working on bettering yourself, including spiritually. The word "Christian" was thrown around by a few of us in this thread (mostly during the threadjack(s). I am curious... are either of you Christian, or did you have Christian upbringing? It doesn't change my mind about what can be done to try to fix things, but it does give an idea where you are coming from. Even with her inappropriate behavior... Even we Christians do stupid, inappropriate things at times. However, that, in no way, excuses such behavior.


Yeah definitely resentment buildup from the OPs lack of corcern for his wife's feelings. I'm just wondering if the source of her anger is from porn alone or masturbation all together. 

In my case it was masturbating all together that upset me and not specifically porn because at that point in time my needs were being neglected.


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## husbandinwaiting

We both were raised as Christians. Even though I am regularly attending a very good Church, I can not on principal consider myself one. I was a PK, so I have a lot of issues with organised religion. I actually have an appointment with the Pastor coming up soon--a major milestone. I believe these issues will be the most difficult to work through. 

I have found the religious tangent of this thread thought provoking. I have issues with absolute black and white, and the grey in between. 

Not quite sure how she ties MB and porn together. I can't really talk to her right now. Right now they are too closely tied together, and I've given up both. Long term that may not be practical or healthy. Who knows how long this is going to last. My concern for my marriage easily out weighs porn. It was as easy as turning off a switch. Only time I have been even tempted was in reaction to her BS. Really upsets me that I didn't even bother to try before. But it's over, I can't continue to blame myself, need to move forward.


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## Catherine602

BrockLanders said:


> I've said it over and over. There might be a few men here who like to shine their halos and say they're not like that, but most men do not equivicate sex with love. It's just not in our DNA. Now, you say men should pay attention to the feelings of women and that the OP was eliciting thoughts from women, which he was. I was trying to provide balance, as many women who are here are jaded either through being burned or being part of the religious substrate that occupies this forum. As a test, I ran a google query that looked for women looking for mens input on issues. Would you like to take a gander as to the gender breakdown of the threads? You want men to come to your aid while you ignore the worldview of men .



Thanks for this. It is nice to have a man who is so forthcoming. 

So the professed sex-love stuff is just a self serving ploy to get an orgasm from a convenient source, the wife? 

He lust after any vj? Then he is inclined to take his DNA to any random women. Do I have that right? 

Does a lot to clear things up. Women hear what you have said all of the time. That is one reason why wives don't think sex is an important component of love. You are saying they are right? 

When they get busy, they cut down on giving their husbands orgasms in service to his DNA. 

Well if its DNA we are talking about, I will be as forthcoming as you have been. Most woman's DNA directs her not to be used as a source of a mans orgasms. Most women do equate sex with love.


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## Catherine602

My previous post was not serious. Sarcasm is not a nice way to debate a topic but I cant help it. 

There are several post by sex starved married men looking for solutions. One thread had an excellent exchange. Some LD women posted and revealed what they felt. 

A number of female posters explained the genesis of some of the notions of LD that lead's to inattention to sex in the relationship. The majority of male posters downplayed the effect of a LD woman experience of sex. 

I think there are few women over the age of 18 who has not heard or experienced contact with men who pretend that they have emotional feeling to get sex.

They separate sex and their emotions. They would not be able to lie so easily if they did not. This does effect a woman's view of sex in marriage. What BL says is common. 

You know how this makes me feel? 

Women are nothing special. They are useful to satify a mans desire for orgasms. Sex is impersonal has to do with lusting after random women and DNA spreading. Women are interchangeable. 

There seems to be male pride in informing women about the disconnection men feel between love and sex. It usually said in a way that assumes that women have been duped and need to hear the truth. 

They are nothing special. They are useful to satify a mans desire for orgasms. Sex is impersonal has to do with lusting after random women and DNA spreading. Women are interchangeable. .


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## Catherine602

I know thus is not true for many men but I have had the benifit of reading post by men on this forum who express a deep love for their gf/fiancé/wife. Most women have not been so lucky.

These men's actions match the words. They stay and try and work it out for an incredible number of years. Even bf's and engaged men do so. 

If men were lying you cannot tell by their actions. In fact I think when a man falls in love the connection between sex and love is stronger than a woman's. 

Many women feel as close an emotion connection and love for a husband with whom the dont have sex.

It's too bad that LD women don't know the other side of the story.


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## MSP

I think there needs to be some clarification on men and sex. For both men and women, arousal and love are not necessarily connected. There is one main difference. When men are aroused they know it and so does everyone else who can cast a glimpse below their belts. When women are aroused, they do not necessarily know it. There was one comprehensive study that showed that women not only cannot accurately predict whether or not something will arouse them, but they cannot even accurately tell whether or not they have become aroused (when watching different scenes). 

For women, an acknowledgement of arousal is almost always related to an emotional connection of some kind. What this means is that women acknowledge the emotions associated with arousal rather than the physical state of arousal itself. 

Men, on the other hand, are able to more clearly separate the division between physical and emotional arousal. A man can get an erection from just about anything, but that doesn't mean that he would necessarily be willing to have sex. He is just physically aroused. He may have sex, but without any emotional motive. 

When a woman knows she wants sex with a specific man, there is almost always an associated emotional attraction. 

Women project this onto men, thinking that when a man desires a woman he has an emotional pull to her. Not true. However, as I said before, when a man orgasms, his oxytocin goes through the roof and he bonds with the woman. He can't help it. So even if a man starts sex with no emotional attraction, he will end with more of a bond than he started with. The problem is when you have a lot of casual sex, because this interferes with the ability to generate the sexual bond.

An irony with this topic is that wives will withhold sex because they feel like they are seen as just a penis receptacle for emotionless sex, yet they will feel hurt when a man looks at porn because they assume the man has an emotional desire for the porno women. However, it does make sense in that the wives feel that if they have no strong connection to their husbands, that he must be finding it elsewhere.


----------



## eyuop

MSP said:


> I think there needs to be some clarification on men and sex. For both men and women, arousal and love are not necessarily connected. There is one main difference. When men are aroused they know it and so does everyone else who can cast a glimpse below their belts. When women are aroused, they do not necessarily know it. There was one comprehensive study that showed that women not only cannot accurately predict whether or not something will arouse them, but they cannot even accurately tell whether or not they have become aroused (when watching different scenes).
> 
> For women, an acknowledgement of arousal is almost always related to an emotional connection of some kind. What this means is that women acknowledge the emotions associated with arousal rather than the physical state of arousal itself.
> 
> Men, on the other hand, are able to more clearly separate the division between physical and emotional arousal. A man can get an erection from just about anything, but that doesn't mean that he would necessarily be willing to have sex. He is just physically aroused. He may have sex, but without any emotional motive.
> 
> When a woman knows she wants sex with a specific man, there is almost always an associated emotional attraction.
> 
> Women project this onto men, thinking that when a man desires a woman he has an emotional pull to her. Not true. However, as I said before, when a man orgasms, his oxytocin goes through the roof and he bonds with the woman. He can't help it. So even if a man starts sex with no emotional attraction, he will end with more of a bond than he started with. The problem is when you have a lot of casual sex, because this interferes with the ability to generate the sexual bond.
> 
> An irony with this topic is that wives will withhold sex because they feel like they are seen as just a penis receptacle for emotionless sex, yet they will feel hurt when a man looks at porn because they assume the man has an emotional desire for the porno women. However, it does make sense in that the wives feel that if they have no strong connection to their husbands, that he must be finding it elsewhere.


This is incredibly insightful. I completely agree as I am of the male gender. Men (and also some women) are very good at compartmentalizing things.


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## hehasmyheart

My husband, early on in the marriage, replaced me with porn (that's my viewpoint). He rejected me often, and only initiated every month or 2. It killed the marriage. I have extreme resentment for him, and he's now the last person in the world I'd have sex with. It's been over 2 years now. I began an EA (never physical), and only now (after I told him of the EA) does he ACT like he wants sex, and has turned it all around to say I was the one that didn't want sex.

In my view, actual sex isn't important to him. He'd rather do his own thing while watching a fantasy than actually bond with someone. So, now we are both celibate, unless you could count PS with the EA.

If this is anything like your situation, (sorry I didn't read all the posts), I'd say stop watching the porn and start concentrating on loving your wife. Try to reconnect emotionally before sexually. Tell her your viewpoint, and say you'd like to completely commit yourself to the marriage without external forces. Really listen to what she says about how she feels hurt, and acknowledge those feelings. Do not minimize her hurt, or blameshift.

Ask her if she can forgive you, and tell her you'll try to make it up to her by being truly committed to the marriage. Be sincere.


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## hehasmyheart

Sorry to have to bring religion into this, but for anyone who has any religious belief, this WOULD in fact be cheating.

The marriage vows come from the bible. The bible says looking at another with lust, is as good as cheating.

Maybe my EA isn't really cheating. I've never touched him.


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## richie33

You cheated. You went outside of your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johnnycomelately

hehasmyheart said:


> Sorry to have to bring religion into this, but for anyone who has any religious belief, this WOULD in fact be cheating.
> 
> The marriage vows come from the bible. The bible says looking at another with lust, is as good as cheating.
> 
> Maybe my EA isn't really cheating. I've never touched him.


It is hypocritical to bring the Bible into this debate considering that many of God's prophets including the father of Christianity, Abraham, were adulterers. God called David 'a man after my own heart' (Acts 13:22) despite the fact that David had an affair with Bathsheba and then murdered her husband. 

There are also verses condemning adultery, so, as always, the Bible is contradictory on this issue and so can offer no clear guidance.


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## eyuop

hehasmyheart said:


> Sorry to have to bring religion into this, but for anyone who has any religious belief, this WOULD in fact be cheating.
> 
> The marriage vows come from the bible. The bible says looking at another with lust, is as good as cheating.
> 
> Maybe my EA isn't really cheating. I've never touched him.


Actually, lets not get too high on your horse. The Bible also says having anger toward another (like your spouse) is as good as murder. In other words, God sees the heart of each person and knows their motives. Just because someone doesn't carry out those motives doesn't mean He isn't displeased with them (which is the definition of sin -- doing something to displease God). Going outside of your marriage to engage in an intimate relationship with a real person is cheating (EA). 

I believe anything that is meant to stimulate people sexually that is in the "vicarious" category (pics, erotic literature, romance novels, movies, adult video games) are part of a gray area because a person can view/read these things and not have a real relationship with anyone. This includes movies that have any sort of sex scenes in them. In fact, couples can watch/read these things together. If a couple reads an erotic story together and they get turned on, is that "cheating"?

For me, porn wasn't about lusting after other women. I didn't desire the women I saw in porn movies. Sure, they were often quite hot, but I had no desire for any of them personally. I wasn't infatuated in the least. When the Bible says not to look at a woman lustfully, what does that mean? I believe it means to desire to have her sexually. Since I'm a married man, if I looked at another woman and began to desire her (over my wife) sexually, that would certainly be a sin. 

If I simply look at a beautiful woman, feel some attraction, but don't go any further in my thoughts (desiring to somehow have her for myself) then no sin was committed. Believe it or not, people can watch porn and have no desire for the actors personally. What I saw in porn was people enjoying themselves immensely and I longed for that kind of passion to happen more in my own married sex life. I didn't want any other woman. I wanted my wife to be into me and passionate. It is like when I watch someone doing the ski jump. I do have some longing to do something daring like that, but I'm doubt I ever will. Instead, I get to feel some of the rush vicariously without actually doing it myself if I watch it. 

I know I sound very much like I'm trying to justify myself. For your information, I do not believe porn is something God is pleased with in general. Not because it is necessarily a sin for me to watch it, but because I'm watching something that is (I believe) sacred and is not supposed to be seen openly by others. Also, many porn actors are exploited people, or people who are having sex outside of marriage, which is also not sanctioned in the Bible. By watching this I'm participating vicariously in something that is not pleasing (in my view) to God. So, yes, I agree that porn (for those reasons, mainly) is not healthy spiritually to watch. God is just as concerned with the people who are acting as he is with the viewer because He understands the pain and the costs associated with that lifestyle.

Anyway, your husband is cheating you if he is using porn as a replacement for sex and intimacy with you. I've never done that to my wife. I'm HD, she is LD (incomparison). She gets all of the sex she ever wants and probably more than she wants. As far as intimacy goes, however, I'm sure I could always do better. I'm giving porn the boot so I can work on really focusing on my wife in this way. I have a tendency to get a bit obsessed about our sex life when I'm viewing porn and forget about other important aspects of our relationship.


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## hehasmyheart

Yes, I'll agree there are contradictions in the bible, but if it weren't for the bible, we wouldn't have marriage. Therefore, everyone must draw a personal conclusion on how to have a good marriage. Most of the time, porn only becomes an issue if there are unresolved issues preceding it. In my case, I felt neglected and he refused to listen.

Also, I think there should be more pre-education about marriage. I was 24 when I got married, he was 25. I barely knew anything about myself, much less how to be a good wife. This is why I tend to think people screw up the first marriage (married too young), and can move onto a 2nd marriage being better prepared, though the statistics aren't good on 2nd marriages either.


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## johnnycomelately

hehasmyheart said:


> Yes, I'll agree there are contradictions in the bible, but if it weren't for the bible, we wouldn't have marriage.


That is not true. Marriage pre-dates the Bible and existed and exists in societies, like China, which are not Christian. 

Marriage is a civil institution that developed 10 000 years ago with the advent of agriculture and inheritance of property. The Bible simply adopted and regulated the institution.


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## hehasmyheart

Very interesting...I was just using Google and researching a bit. Well, that leads to lots of other questions about marriage then. If you take religion out of it, it's simply for convenience.


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## johnnycomelately

hehasmyheart said:


> Very interesting...I was just using Google and researching a bit. Well, that leads to lots of other questions about marriage then. If you take religion out of it, it's simply for convenience.


Why would religion being excluded make it simply for convenience? I don't get that.


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## richie33

If men / women who watch porn are considered cheaters.....then are the men / women who have EA/ PA considered Mega cheaters or Super cheaters?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TiggyBlue

Truth is if you get with someone who has stated from the start they view porn/pics as cheating and with this knowledge still look at porn/pics then trying to argue your not cheating is futile.


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## TravelingMan82

"Internet porn is especially enticing to the reward circuitry because novelty is always just a click away. It could be a novel “mate,” unusual scene, strange sexual act, or—you fill in the blank. With multiple tabs open and clicking for hours, you can experience more novel sex partners every ten minutes than our hunter-gatherer ancestors experienced in a lifetime. Internet porn is what scientists call a supernormal stimulus"


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## ALotOnMyMind

Catherine602 said:


> How would you feel if you expressed something you felt and your wife told you it was irrational? I will give you very good advice - don't say it even if you think it. There are consequences for not listening.
> 
> Men have more problems with this than women. If you do it here you, it is probably your accustomed mode of communication. When someone expresses feeling that make you uncomfortable do you attempt to shut them down? .
> 
> There are many post of men whose wife blindsided them and walked out. They realize that they failed to listen to her but it is often too late.
> 
> Let me float a fictitious scenario by you.
> 
> Lets say your wife try's repeatedly to get you just to listen to her feelings without negative judgements or telling her how she should feel. You don't listen because you don't think it is important. Eventually, she stops telling you what she feels; she concludes its hopeless and resents you. She won't stop feeling but she will not share them with Mr know-it-all.
> 
> She is likely to shut you out. Lets say you ask her feelings about sex maybe about a fantasy. Strange that you are interested in her feelings about a subject thats important to you. She is not forthcoming. She shut you out years ago. She is used to keeping her feelings to herself. She probably feels you only think about is sex. She may say it. It may seem that way because you don't want to hear about her feelings about much else.
> 
> She may stop enjoying sex with a man who thinks she has irrational feelings and dismisses them. It may be hard for her to be vulnerable with a man who is not interested in what she feels. She may feel that he is not interested in her as a person but he is interested in sex. She may or may not express "all you want me for is sex". He tells her that is irrational.
> 
> When sexual problems start, you have the talk with her. Nothing changes even though you express your feelings of loneliness, frustration and depressed. How can she be so cruel to negate your feelings.
> 
> You dont have to agree but you should listen attentively without zoning out. You don't need to agree that she is right and you are wrong. Thats black and white thinking when there are ample shades of gray to work with. Don't make negative characterizations about her feelings. You don't need to tell how unreasonable she is and suggest how she should feel.
> 
> You don't have to take my advice. Just remember you get what you give in a relationship. Don't complain when your birds fly back and nest in your chimney.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You completely ignored everything else I said and focused on one sentence: the one where I mentioned that such feelings without explanation might be irrational. Therefore, you have given me an excuse to completely ignore anything you say. If you are unwilling to reply to my points, but ignore them, then I can ignore you too.

By the way I'm a woman not a man.


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## ALotOnMyMind

husbandinwaiting said:


> We did, and I knew it bothered her. Didn't realize how bad. Should have explained my needs a long time ago. Not necessarily sex, hell I would take a good snuggle. I've chosen no. 1. Wished she would believe my commitment.


So you and her talked about porn before marriage, and before the marriage she told you that it did bother her. But then you looked at porn anyway. This means that you did in fact violate her trust and comfort level. Sorry to say, but you are in fact in the wrong here. 

In my opinion her feelings about porn are irrational. But you knew before you looked at it that it would bother her, so yeah it seems like you'll have to never look at porn again. Maybe she will come around later, but I doubt it.


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## ALotOnMyMind

whataboutthis? said:


> But I'm dealing with much more (contacting escorts, paid subscriptions to adult dating sites, and lack of transparency about what he's done).
> 
> Truth is I'll never know. But, when he was just looking at porn (or so I thought that's all it was) it hurt me. *I felt inadequate* because he did it in lieu of wanting to be with me. I did not consider it infidelity but it hurt terribly.
> 
> I did not stand my ground. We didn't communicate. I let it distance us. He moved into contact as some point. Not sure when. If I had stood my ground on how it made me feel perhaps he wouldn't have allowed it to escalate into a sexual addiction and move into contacting women (and more I suspect). Now we are separated.


This always confuses me, even as a woman. I don't understand why women feel inadequate when their partner/husband/SO has an emotional or physical affair or starts to or seriously contemplates it. These things, in my opinion, speak MUCH more about him than about you. It shows deep voids in their character or deeper psychological problems that HE is having. It's not about you; it's about him. 

I have never been cheated on, but had I been, I would never have blamed myself. I would have thought, "Well, better it happen now than 5-10 years down the road" because you would have wasted all that time with someone who had emotional/psychological/personal/character problems and not known it.

Here's why it's his problem and not yours when he cheats: If he is unhappy with something in the relationship, this means that, instead of growing a pair and addressing the problem (which is healthy), he is willing to break his promises/vows/agreements, lie, abandon your feelings, go around your back, service a possible addiction, etc etc etc (which is unhealthy). It speaks volumes and volumes about that person.


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## eyuop

johnnycomelately said:


> That is not true. Marriage pre-dates the Bible and existed and exists in societies, like China, which are not Christian.
> 
> Marriage is a civil institution that developed 10 000 years ago with the advent of agriculture and inheritance of property. The Bible simply adopted and regulated the institution.


I guess that depends on if you believe God is creator or not. If He is, He created the first man and woman and brought them together (in marriage). 

The USA was founded on this main idea:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." 
(Declaration of Independence)

You told me your beliefs, and now you have heard mine.


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## eyuop

ALotOnMyMind said:


> Here's why it's his problem and not yours when he cheats: If he is unhappy with something in the relationship, this means that, instead of growing a pair and addressing the problem (which is healthy), he is willing to break his promises/vows/agreements, lie, abandon your feelings, go around your back, service a possible addiction, etc etc etc (which is unhealthy). It speaks volumes and volumes about that person.


A lot of spouses do grow a pair and try to communicate their needs (sometimes often and loudly). Then when they are ignored for long enough (SO doesn't take action) they resort to "cheating". When an HD spouse tells his/her LD spouse, "I'm not getting enough sex", and the LD spouse doesn't respond, then who's at fault when the HD spouse starts masturbating (to porn or whatever) for the release he/she craves? I've heard of both men and women on TAM say that they are so glad they can at least masturbate. This does speak volumes about the HD person. It shows he/she has needs not being met by his/her spouse.

(To be fair, the LD spouse may also have needs not being met -- but then he/she also needs to grow a pair and communicate these needs, too.)


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## ALotOnMyMind

eyuop said:


> A lot of spouses do grow a pair and try to communicate their needs (sometimes often and loudly). Then when they are ignored for long enough (SO doesn't take action) they resort to "cheating". When an HD spouse tells his/her LD spouse, "I'm not getting enough sex", and the LD spouse doesn't respond, then who's at fault when the HD spouse starts masturbating (to porn or whatever) for the release he/she craves? I've heard of both men and women on TAM say that they are so glad they can at least masturbate. This does speak volumes about the HD person. It shows he/she has needs not being met by his/her spouse.
> 
> (To be fair, the LD spouse may also have needs not being met -- but then he/she also needs to grow a pair and communicate these needs, too.)


When needs go unmet, counseling is in order. If one partner does not agree to counseling, divorce is in order. There is simply no excuse for cheating. At some point, when he or she has reached their limit and decides that they can't go on like this anymore, they need to divorce at that point instead of cheat.


----------



## norajane

ALotOnMyMind said:


> This always confuses me, even as a woman. *I don't understand why women feel inadequate when their partner/husband/SO has an emotional or physical affair or starts to or seriously contemplates it. *These things, in my opinion, speak MUCH more about him than about you. It shows deep voids in their character or deeper psychological problems that HE is having. It's not about you; it's about him.
> 
> I have never been cheated on, but had I been, I would never have blamed myself. I would have thought, "Well, better it happen now than 5-10 years down the road" because you would have wasted all that time with someone who had emotional/psychological/personal/character problems and not known it.
> 
> Here's why it's his problem and not yours when he cheats: If he is unhappy with something in the relationship, this means that, instead of growing a pair and addressing the problem (which is healthy), he is willing to break his promises/vows/agreements, lie, abandon your feelings, go around your back, service a possible addiction, etc etc etc (which is unhealthy). It speaks volumes and volumes about that person.


Men feel that way, too, when they've been cheated on. It's because it's _personal_. Sex is personal and people take cheating personally. 

The dispassionate perspective you hold can only come much later for someone who has been cheated on, after they've healed from the immediate feelings of betrayal, because there's nothing more personal than a marriage and that couple's sex life and a betrayal of both.


----------



## eyuop

ALotOnMyMind said:


> When needs go unmet, counseling is in order. If one partner does not agree to counseling, divorce is in order. There is simply no excuse for cheating. At some point, when he or she has reached their limit and decides that they can't go on like this anymore, they need to divorce at that point instead of cheat.


The above seems quite rational. To clarify, when you say "cheat", how are you defining this? Is masturbation cheating? Is reading erotic novels cheating? I'm just trying to understand your definition. I agree with you that cheating (defined as having a close/intimate relationship with another person either via proxy or in the flesh who is not your spouse) is never warranted. Also, in most cases, needs are often being unmet on both sides of the equation. Sometimes the couple goes through counseling and still things aren't resolved. How soon would you say "divorce is in order" in this scenario?

Just trying to understand your thinking. This isn't some sort of bait/switch thing.


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## ALotOnMyMind

norajane said:


> Men feel that way, too, when they've been cheated on. It's because it's _personal_. Sex is personal and people take cheating personally.
> 
> The dispassionate perspective you hold can only come much later for someone who has been cheated on, after they've healed from the immediate feelings of betrayal, because there's nothing more personal than a marriage and that couple's sex life and a betrayal of both.


One of my husband's friends is like that; his wife cheated on him right after their baby was born. He divorced her 10 years ago and since then she has had 2 more children by 2 different men, for a grand total of 3 kids by 3 different men. This guy is still damaged to this day because she cheated on him all those years ago; he is distrustful of all women, is convinced all women are the same as her and that all women will cheat, etc. He has been unable to have a healthy relationship with another woman since his ex-wife.

Of course, he's out of his mind. During the past 2 years of getting to know this guy, I have found out that he always chooses the wrong women--women with a lot of baggage and personal problems and addictions. It seems silly to me that he can't see the problems with these women. The latest one appeared to be a drug user who didn't eat enough; she was so skinny that it looked like she had anorexia. But he thinks that's sexy. 

But anyway, for him to have taken it *that* personally that she cheated on him, he must have taken her extremely seriously as an individual and in the marriage. And I just don't get that. If a person has loads of baggage and problems and very wrong perspectives not based in reality, and then they wrong you, well duh...and are you supposed to be surprised by this? But he'll just never get it.

I throw my hands up in the air at it all.


----------



## ALotOnMyMind

eyuop said:


> The above seems quite rational. To clarify, when you say "cheat", how are you defining this? Is masturbation cheating? Is reading erotic novels cheating? I'm just trying to understand your definition. I agree with you that cheating (defined as having a close/intimate relationship with another person either via proxy or in the flesh who is not your spouse) is never warranted. Also, in most cases, needs are often being unmet on both sides of the equation. Sometimes the couple goes through counseling and still things aren't resolved. How soon would you say "divorce is in order" in this scenario?
> 
> Just trying to understand your thinking. This isn't some sort of bait/switch thing.


Cheating is whatever two people agree that it is. If they can't agree, then each individual has their own definition. If that definition doesn't match, they shouldn't be together because there is potential for problems in the future. 

My husband and I have an agreed-upon definition: a physical or emotional affair done either in person or via a proxy.

If a couple goes through counseling, clearly defines their needs, and one or both are unable to meet those needs, divorce should be in order as soon as can possibly be arranged. Life is too short to spend it without needs being met.

A need and a want are not the same thing. People should know themselves well enough by the time they marry to know the difference.


----------



## johnnycomelately

eyuop said:


> I guess that depends on if you believe God is creator or not. If He is, He created the first man and woman and brought them together (in marriage).
> 
> The USA was founded on this main idea:
> 
> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
> (Declaration of Independence)
> 
> You told me your beliefs, and now you have heard mine.


The point the OP made was 'if we didn't have the Bible we wouldn't have marriage'. That is simply untrue, regardless of your beliefs. I was stating a fact, not telling you my religious beliefs.

As for the Declaration of Independence, I am not American, so to me it is just an important historical document, not a religious text.


----------



## Theseus

BrockLanders said:


> I've said it over and over. There might be a few men here who like to shine their halos and say they're not like that, but most men do not equivicate sex with love. It's just not in our DNA.


I partially agree, partially disagree. It's true that men can separate sex and love. I've known zero straight men who would not sleep with any attractive woman under the right conditions. However, to me, and I believe to most men, sex with someone you love means a hell of a lot more, and is something you want to do much more often than with someone you don't love.


----------



## Theseus

johnnycomelately said:


> It is hypocritical to bring the Bible into this debate considering that many of God's prophets including the father of Christianity, Abraham, were adulterers. God called David 'a man after my own heart' (Acts 13:22) despite the fact that David had an affair with Bathsheba and then murdered her husband.
> 
> There are also verses condemning adultery, so, as always, the Bible is contradictory on this issue and so can offer no clear guidance.


This is so incorrect I had to respond. While the Bible's definition of adultery can be lost in translation and is a little different than most people's today, it is very consistent that "coveting" another person's wife is wrong. 

God wasn't OK with David's affair with Bathsheba, in fact he sent the prophet Nathan to tell the king what he had done was wrong. And it's unclear if David "murdered" her husband - he sent him off to war and he was killed there.


----------



## Maricha75

johnnycomelately said:


> The point the OP made was 'if we didn't have the Bible we wouldn't have marriage'. That is simply untrue, regardless of your beliefs. * I was stating a fact, not telling you my religious beliefs.*
> 
> As for the Declaration of Independence, I am not American, so to me it is just an important historical document, not a religious text.


No, you were stating what you PERCEIVE to be fact, based on your OWN beliefs. Just as eyuop did, based on HIS beliefs (which I agree with, in this case, at least). If one believes the Bible to be the accurate history of the world, then God created one man and one woman, and joined them in marriage... no other men and women there. If one does not believe that the Bible is an accurate history, and/or believes it to be just a collection of stories, etc., then they don't believe the story of Creation from the Bible, nor that God created the institution of marriage. It really is that simple. Either God created it in the beginning...or He didn't. As a Christian, I believe He did.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

ALotOnMyMind said:


> So you and her talked about porn before marriage, and before the marriage she told you that it did bother her. But then you looked at porn anyway. This means that you did in fact violate her trust and comfort level. Sorry to say, but you are in fact in the wrong here.
> 
> In my opinion her feelings about porn are irrational. But you knew before you looked at it that it would bother her, so yeah it seems like you'll have to never look at porn again. Maybe she will come around later, but I doubt it.


No debate about what I did was wrong.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Maricha75 said:


> No, you were stating what you PERCEIVE to be fact, based on your OWN beliefs. Just as eyuop did, based on HIS beliefs (which I agree with, in this case, at least). If one believes the Bible to be the accurate history of the world, then God created one man and one woman, and joined them in marriage... no other men and women there. If one does not believe that the Bible is an accurate history, and/or believes it to be just a collection of stories, etc., then they don't believe the story of Creation from the Bible, nor that God created the institution of marriage. It really is that simple. Either God created it in the beginning...or He didn't. As a Christian, I believe He did.


No, it is a fact. Marriage pre-dates the Bible. 

I'm not arguing about the creation myth, I am responding to the OP's statement that 'without the Bible we wouldn't have marriage. That is clearly false as marriage existed in societies that had never seen a Bible, like the Mayan civilisation.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Theseus said:


> This is so incorrect I had to respond. While the Bible's definition of adultery can be lost in translation and is a little different than most people's today, it is very consistent that "coveting" another person's wife is wrong.
> 
> God wasn't OK with David's affair with Bathsheba, in fact he sent the prophet Nathan to tell the king what he had done was wrong. And it's unclear if David "murdered" her husband - he sent him off to war and he was killed there.


He still called him 'a man after my own heart' knowing he would have an affair with Bathsheba and he didn't punish Abraham's adultery. As I said, a mixed message.


----------



## Maricha75

johnnycomelately said:


> No, it is a fact. Marriage pre-dates the Bible.
> 
> I'm not arguing about the creation myth, I am responding to the OP's statement that 'without the Bible we wouldn't have marriage. That is clearly false as marriage existed in societies that had never seen a Bible, like the Mayan civilisation.


The Bible relates the beginning of time... Creation. That you say "creation myth" says a lot, IMO. Now, going by the account of Creation in the Bible, life began in that garden. The stories were handed down from generation to generation, before they wrote them down. That includes the civilizations you mention. All began from Adam and Eve, that means the story of Creation and further would be carried from parent to child until it is written down. Mayans were, as were all other civilizations, descended from those two people. So, I stand by what I said. God and the biblical account of Creation and marriage predate the Mayans and those other civilizations.


----------



## Theseus

johnnycomelately said:


> He still called him 'a man after my own heart' knowing he would have an affair with Bathsheba and he didn't punish Abraham's adultery. As I said, a mixed message.


David was a great man and a great King in many other ways, hence the statement. 

And I am unaware of Abraham's adultery. If you mean him sleeping with Hagar (which resulted in Ishmael's birth), that was not adultery by the definition at the time. Men were allowed multiple wives, and Hagar was not married to anyone already. In any case, Abraham's wife Sarah suggested it so Abraham could have a son, so by modern standards, that is more akin to Hagar acting as a surrogate mother.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Theseus said:


> David was a great man and a great King in many other ways, hence the statement.
> 
> And I am unaware of Abraham's adultery. If you mean him sleeping with Hagar (which resulted in Ishmael's birth), that was not adultery by the definition at the time. Men were allowed multiple wives, and Hagar was not married to anyone already. In any case, Abraham's wife Sarah suggested it so Abraham could have a son, so by modern standards, that is more akin to Hagar acting as a surrogate mother.


You are rationalising infidelity. Just as many wayward spouses have done. Having sex with someone other than your spouse is infidelity. No question.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Maricha75 said:


> The Bible relates the beginning of time... Creation. That you say "creation myth" says a lot, IMO. Now, going by the account of Creation in the Bible, life began in that garden. The stories were handed down from generation to generation, before they wrote them down. That includes the civilizations you mention. All began from Adam and Eve, that means the story of Creation and further would be carried from parent to child until it is written down. Mayans were, as were all other civilizations, descended from those two people. So, I stand by what I said. God and the biblical account of Creation and marriage predate the Mayans and those other civilizations.


The Bible is 3500 years old. Marriage has existed for more than 20 000 years. Therefore marriage can exist without the Bible.


----------



## johnnycomelately

CristianoRonaldo7 said:


> You have completely misunderstood what Maricha75 has said. What she said makes complete sense (at least it does to me anyway). Whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you of course, but even if you don't believe it, you still have misread or misunderstood what she said.


No, Maricha misunderstood what I was saying. The debate was about the Bible and marriage, not about belief in the Creation story. So I haven't misread or misunderstood anything, I just understand the futility of debating matters of faith.


----------



## Maricha75

johnnycomelately said:


> The Bible is 3500 years old. *Marriage has existed for more than 20 000 years.* Therefore marriage can exist without the Bible.


Again, this goes back to whether you assume Creation, the account recorded in the Bible, is accurate or not. I said what the Bible SAYS predates, not the Bible, itself. And what I was saying is that if one accepts the account, as written in the Bible, then marriage predates all other civilizations. If one does not accept the account, as written, then that person would believe that marriage does not predate those civilizations. 

I will agree with you about one thing you said... debating faith is futile. One who does not believe is unlikely to budge from his premise, just as one who does believe is unlikely to budge from his. Now, while the BIBLE, may be only 3500 years or so old, you also have to acknowledge that, Moses (who wrote down the biblical account of Creation as well as the rest of those first 5 books) was writing about men and women he never personally met. The stories of these men and women were passed on from generation to generation until written down. Yea, I know, next will be "well someone likely got something wrong in the recounting..." Let's just agree to disagree on this, ok? You believe one thing, I believe another. You're not going to budge from yours. I am not going to budge from mine. Like you said... debating faith is futile.


----------



## Theseus

johnnycomelately said:


> You are rationalising infidelity. Just as many wayward spouses have done. Having sex with someone other than your spouse is infidelity. No question.


But in Abraham's case, he *WAS* sleeping with his spouse. He took Hagar as a second wife. Men had multiple wives back then. Also, at the time there were no marriage certificates; simply sleeping with someone was enough to signify marriage.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

Debating faith is not futile. If anything its a test of your belief system. You may not be able to persuade the other party, but at least there can be some mutual respect for staying true.


----------



## Theseus

husbandinwaiting said:


> Debating faith is not futile. If anything its a test of your belief system. You may not be able to persuade the other party, but at least there can be some mutual respect for staying true.


Actually, the debates here seem to really revolve around the definition of 'cheating' rather than faith. Obviously, if a couple doesn't agree on what is cheating and what isnt, it will cause problems down the road.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

True. There are situations where anyone would can see black and white cheating or not. The grey stuff gets a bit tricky. It certainly is all about respecting your spouce's boundaries, whether you agree or not.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Theseus said:


> But in Abraham's case, he *WAS* sleeping with his spouse. He took Hagar as a second wife. Men had multiple wives back then. Also, at the time there were no marriage certificates; simply sleeping with someone was enough to signify marriage.


Right. More rationalisation. So every man who slept with a prostitute was actually marrying her?


----------



## johnnycomelately

Maricha75 said:


> Again, this goes back to whether you assume Creation, the account recorded in the Bible, is accurate or not. I said what the Bible SAYS predates, not the Bible, itself. And what I was saying is that if one accepts the account, as written in the Bible, then marriage predates all other civilizations. If one does not accept the account, as written, then that person would believe that marriage does not predate those civilizations.
> 
> I will agree with you about one thing you said... debating faith is futile. One who does not believe is unlikely to budge from his premise, just as one who does believe is unlikely to budge from his. Now, while the BIBLE, may be only 3500 years or so old, you also have to acknowledge that, Moses (who wrote down the biblical account of Creation as well as the rest of those first 5 books) was writing about men and women he never personally met. The stories of these men and women were passed on from generation to generation until written down. Yea, I know, next will be "well someone likely got something wrong in the recounting..." Let's just agree to disagree on this, ok? You believe one thing, I believe another. You're not going to budge from yours. I am not going to budge from mine. Like you said... debating faith is futile.


As we have both agreed that matters of faith aren't to be debated it boils down to this: marriage has been around for more than 20000 years. The Bible has been around for 3500 years. Marriage existed in societies which had never seen a Bible. Therefore the Bible is not necessary for marriage. Those are the facts.


----------



## Maricha75

johnnycomelately said:


> As we have both agreed that matters of faith aren't to be debated it boils down to this: marriage has been around for more than 20000 years. The Bible has been around for 3500 years. Marriage existed in societies which had never seen a Bible. Therefore the Bible is not necessary for marriage. * Those are the facts.*


Those are "YOUR facts". As I said, you choose to believe that your version predates anything that the Bible says, that is your OPINION. It is what you BELIEVE. Just as what I BELIEVE is the biblical account of marriage, and its origin. It originated in the Garden of Eden. The Mayans and all other civilizations originated from Adam and Eve, the first people ever created, ever married. The first marriage was performed by God... long before the Mayans ever existed. And all came after the Flood. Sorry, but your "facts" don't predate God and the first marriage, which He performed. You don't have to agree with me. But at least spare me the "facts" and present them as what they are...your own opinions, based on the disbelief that what the Bible says to be true. You put your faith in man, science, etc. I put mine in God. That is what this particular "debate" is about.


----------



## Theseus

johnnycomelately said:


> Right. More rationalisation.


 So ... you think polygamists are cheaters?


----------



## johnnycomelately

Maricha75 said:


> Those are "YOUR facts".


No, those are the facts accepted by the scientific community. I am not an archaeologist.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Theseus said:


> So ... you think polygamists are cheaters?


Yes. Especially when they claim that sex itself constitutes marriage.


----------



## BrockLanders

johnnycomelately said:


> No, those are the facts accepted by the scientific community. I am not an archaeologist.


You are arguing with people who think a flying spaghetti monster created the world in a few days 5000 years ago.


----------



## Maricha75

johnnycomelately said:


> No, those are the facts *accepted by the scientific community*. I am not an archaeologist.


As I said...you put your faith in science. I put my faith in God.


----------



## Maricha75

BrockLanders said:


> You are arguing with people who think a flying spaghetti monster created the world in a few days 5000 years ago.


He knows he is arguing with people who believe GOD created the world. FSM? Really? Give me a break.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Maricha75 said:


> As I said...you put your faith in science. I put my faith in God.


Go ahead. I hope you don't get ill.


----------



## Maricha75

johnnycomelately said:


> Go ahead. I hope you don't get ill.


Funny you should mention that... 
I have gotten sick. As have my kids, and other family and friends. Yep, gone to doctors. Doesn't change my faith in God. Who do you think gave them the brains they use to know how to help us get well?


----------



## CallaLily

IMO, I think God created doctors to help heal the sick and make people feel better.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Maricha75 said:


> Funny you should mention that...
> I have gotten sick. As have my kids, and other family and friends. Yep, gone to doctors. Doesn't change my faith in God. Who do you think gave them the brains they use to know how to help us get well?


So you put your faith in science...until it doesn't fit in with your beliefs.


----------



## olwhatsisname

I have been to church members homes that had paperback books of LUSTY young men on the cover. book cases full, and women think nothing of it . it's theirs. they want the fairy tail nonsense they read all the time, but it's for entertainment. more female nonsense from the I want give me give me,side of the ledger !!!


----------



## Maricha75

johnnycomelately said:


> So you put your faith in science...until it doesn't fit in with your beliefs.


Oh boy... nice twisting my words. 

God made man.
God gave them brains.
Some use them to do good.
Some use them to do evil.
Some glorify Him.
Some don't.

I believe God gave the doctors the ability to heal. It's not a matter of putting my faith in science. It's a matter of having faith that God is guiding the hands of the physicians.

But nice try. :smthumbup:


----------



## Theseus

olwhatsisname said:


> I have been to church members homes that had paperback books of LUSTY young men on the cover. book cases full, and women think nothing of it . it's theirs. they want the fairy tail nonsense they read all the time, but it's for entertainment. more female nonsense from the I want give me give me,side of the ledger !!!


If you are saying that some wives don't see anything wrong with their own fantasy literature, while at the same time condemning porn because it gives men unrealistic views of women, then I agree with you 100%.


----------



## ALotOnMyMind

husbandinwaiting said:


> Debating faith is not futile. If anything its a test of your belief system. You may not be able to persuade the other party, but at least there can be some mutual respect for staying true.


Yeah, that is how I de-converted from young earth creationist fundamentalism at age 19. And of all things, it happened debating other Christians (and some atheists, agnostics and freethinkers) on a Christian web forum. Haha. Been agnostic for 9 years, never looking back. YEC/biblical literalism is not based on faith, it's based on deep denial. It never holds up in a debate unless the YECist is able to convolute the evidence (and they are amazingly good at it) or go deeper down the rabbit hole of denial.

But that is totally off-topic...


----------



## husbandinwaiting

Lost topic way back.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

IMO - since I am a woman and you are asking a "woman's" opinion and not many of the men that chose to post their opinion, like it matters...my view of porn is that it is harmful when its viewed by one person all the time when they have the real thing available and they use it in order to excuse the fact that they can't handle a real-life relationship.

If you want to fantasize and play out your fantasies, then do it with your SO and/or your spouse. Don't do it in a dark room in front of a TV or computer screen.

I play mine out in threesomes now and then with my husband...I don't play them out constantly in front of a computer screen with a vibrator and ignore the warm-blooded man in my bedroom.

THAT is when I have an issue with porn. You want to have sex, then look no further than the person you sleep next to every night. 

Now...if that person is not cooperating, then that's a different story--but if they are ready, willing, and able...then why are you spending time on someone else?


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

husbandinwaiting said:


> I saw porn as a coping mechanism, for a disconnect in our relationship. I want to be close to my wife, I want to have relations with her. She drifted away and shut me out, and denied physical contact, apparently as a response to porn use. Our reactions to each other compounded. I believe it was a choice, I've turned it off like a switch--unless it's just some kind of fear response.
> 
> I failed to understand how deeply it hurt her. Trying to get some understanding of what she/we need to do to get through this.


Now THIS I thoroughly understand.

My husband chose to view porn instead of having sex with me for a time--all because of issues HE WAS having, not because I wasn't available or willing, etc. In fact, I used to beg him to tell me what was wrong--well what was wrong was he got hooked on the porn and all of a sudden I was chopped meat.

I got defensive about the porn, because the porn became a wall in our marriage, I didn't build that wall--he did. I resented the fact that he felt more of a connection with a bunch of total strangers than me and then wouldn't even discuss it with me or tell me why.

I had to do my own digging and discover that it had absolutely nothing to do with me. Was an internal struggle he was having with something else and I got the raw end of the deal. 

And I have to tell you, it took something away from me and our relationship--before I would have trusted him no matter what. I believed everything he said and did, the moon hung on him. After--25 years (we've been married almost 29 years now) of total trust went right down the tubes over his behavior. Do you know how awful that is - to believe someone and trust them implicitly and then it blows up in your face because THEY have a problem?

Well I do...it hurts and while I still love him and have forgiven him I will never forget and it changed "how I see him" forever. And while I love him and always will, I hate him for what he did to my trust.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Maricha75 said:


> Oh boy... nice twisting my words.
> 
> God made man.
> God gave them brains.
> Some use them to do good.
> Some use them to do evil.
> Some glorify Him.
> Some don't.
> 
> I believe God gave the doctors the ability to heal. It's not a matter of putting my faith in science. It's a matter of having faith that God is guiding the hands of the physicians.
> 
> But nice try. :smthumbup:


So why say you have no faith in science?



Maricha75 said:


> As I said...you put your faith in science. I put my faith in God.


The fact that marriage can exist without the Bible still stands.


----------



## Maricha75

johnnycomelately said:


> So why say you have no faith in science?
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that marriage can exist without the Bible still stands.


Wow... twisting again. But I'll play. I said my FAITH is in God. My FAITH is that He has given them the knowledge to be able to heal. My faith is still in GOD, not MAN.

And the fact still remains that marriage began with God, long before those other civilizations ever existed. And all I have been saying regarding the BIBLE is that it was WRITTEN there what happened in the beginning. I'm not stupid, johnny. I'm well aware that the biblical account wasn't WRITTEN DOWN in the Garden. The fact that God instituted marriage at the beginning still stands.


----------



## BrockLanders

Maricha75 said:


> Wow... twisting again. But I'll play. I said my FAITH is in God. My FAITH is that He has given them the knowledge to be able to heal. My faith is still in GOD, not MAN.
> 
> And the fact still remains that marriage began with God, long before those other civilizations ever existed. And all I have been saying regarding the BIBLE is that it was WRITTEN there what happened in the beginning. I'm not stupid, johnny. I'm well aware that the biblical account wasn't WRITTEN DOWN in the Garden. The fact that God instituted marriage at the beginning still stands.


Marriage is at least 10, 000 years old and has zero to do with god. It has to do with our ancestors moving from hunter gatherer lifestyles to sedentary agricultural societies. It's simple pragmatism, not an imperative cast down from some almighty being. Of course the Bible skips over the fact that modern man was primative for tens of thousands of years before farming or animal husbandry was even an idea, but lets not let facts get in the way of our debate.


----------



## BrockLanders

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> IMO - since I am a woman and you are asking a "woman's" opinion and not many of the men that chose to post their opinion, like it matters...my view of porn is that it is harmful when its viewed by one person all the time when they have the real thing available and they use it in order to excuse the fact that they can't handle a real-life relationship.
> 
> If you want to fantasize and play out your fantasies, then do it with your SO and/or your spouse. Don't do it in a dark room in front of a TV or computer screen.
> 
> I play mine out in threesomes now and then with my husband...I don't play them out constantly in front of a computer screen with a vibrator and ignore the warm-blooded man in my bedroom.
> 
> THAT is when I have an issue with porn. You want to have sex, then look no further than the person you sleep next to every night.
> 
> Now...if that person is not cooperating, then that's a different story--but if they are ready, willing, and able...then why are you spending time on someone else?


Inviting someone else into your bed is more acceptable than watching the occaisonal porn? Lmao! Look no further than the person sleeping next to you? I'd love to dear but unfortunately he's our threesome partner.


----------



## Maricha75

BrockLanders said:


> Marriage is at least 10, 000 years old and has zero to do with god. It has to do with our ancestors moving from hunter gatherer lifestyles to sedentary agricultural societies. It's simple pragmatism, not an imperative cast down from some almighty being. Of course the Bible skips over the fact that modern man was primative for tens of thousands of years before farming or animal husbandry was even an idea, but lets not let facts get in the way of our debate.


Your opinion (and obviously that of others as well). You are, obviously free to believe as you wish.


----------



## richie33

Porn BAD.....threesomes GOOD. Wow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BrockLanders

richie33 said:


> Porn BAD.....threesomes GOOD. Wow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The worldview of a complete narcissist. ..


----------



## Oldrandwisr

My husband was a porn addict prior to his marriage. What shocked him is after he met me and married me, he was impotent with the real thing and could only get turned on by porn since he had used it for so long. It can have unintended consequences.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Maricha75 said:


> Your opinion (and obviously that of others as well). You are, obviously free to believe as you wish.


As long as we don't mind burning in hell for eternity, right?


----------



## johnnycomelately

Maricha75 said:


> Wow... twisting again. But I'll play. I said my FAITH is in God. My FAITH is that He has given them the knowledge to be able to heal. My faith is still in GOD, not MAN.
> 
> And the fact still remains that marriage began with God, long before those other civilizations ever existed. And all I have been saying regarding the BIBLE is that it was WRITTEN there what happened in the beginning. I'm not stupid, johnny. I'm well aware that the biblical account wasn't WRITTEN DOWN in the Garden. The fact that God instituted marriage at the beginning still stands.


Now we are in the area of your belief, not fact.


----------



## ALotOnMyMind

I believe it is now time to retire this thread. I know I'm retiring from it.


----------



## Maricha75

johnnycomelately said:


> Now we are in the area of your belief, not fact.


As I said before... what you state as fact are, in fact, simply your belief.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Maricha75 said:


> As I said before... what you state as fact are, in fact, simply your belief.


No, it is the accumulated research, experimentation and verification of the scientific/archaeological community for the last few hundred years. Nothing to do with my 'belief'.


----------



## husbandinwaiting

ALotOnMyMind said:


> I believe it is now time to retire this thread. I know I'm retiring from it.


Me too. Can we get back on topic. Specifically I'm looking for the female point of view of a wife who's husband has had a problem with porn, and how the issues were resolved, and what it took to restore trust. Remember my wife has shut me out, I can't talk to her about this right now. Trying to give her room, and keep her from driving me crazy at the same time.

At least I have made one good contact who has provided useful advice. I thank the others who have participated, even the 'try-hard' debaters.


----------



## Maricha75

husbandinwaiting said:


> Me too. Can we get back on topic. Specifically I'm looking for the female point of view of a wife who's husband has had a problem with porn, and how the issues were resolved, and what it took to restore trust. Remember my wife has shut me out, I can't talk to her about this right now. Trying to give her room, and keep her from driving me crazy at the same time.
> 
> At least I have made one good contact who has provided useful advice. I thank the others who have participated, even the 'try-hard' debaters.


You mentioned you had a meeting planned with a pastor.... how did that go? Or has it happened yet?


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## husbandinwaiting

Tomorrow. They let the intern deliver message today, being a former PK I'm kind of critical. Family would critique my father after church every Sunday. The Pastor at this church talks very fast. He is well prepared and delivers a lot pretty quick. Took a little time to get used to him, had problems retaining the message initially. Really talented guy. He remembered me and my wife even though we hadn't been there in months. I've always envied people who could do that. I have the attention span of a gold fish, when it comes to people's names. See how it goes tomorrow.


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## Maricha75

LOL! My dad has often said my sister has the attention span of a gnat.  So, I understand what you mean there. I'm gonna assume you have seen the movie "Finding Nemo"... You know Dory? Yea, that's my sister, through and through lol. Anyway, hope all goes well tomorrow. Let us know.


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## Oldrandwisr

I'll try to give this a little nudge to lead it back on track. I'll repeat a bit from what I said above that my husband was secretly addicted to porn when I met him and he was unpleasantly surprised that the real thing could not turn him on, only porn could. That is one dismal outcome for some. And one that may be at the root of every wife's insecurity about it.


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## eyuop

Oldrandwisr said:


> I'll try to give this a little nudge to lead it back on track. I'll repeat a bit from what I said above that my husband was secretly addicted to porn when I met him and he was unpleasantly surprised that the real thing could not turn him on, only porn could. That is one dismal outcome for some. And one that may be at the root of every wife's insecurity about it.


That seems very odd to me, though I believe you that it did (and could) happen. The real thing always turns me on, and always has. I was viewing porn at different levels for years before the real thing, and there ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby! I always become less interested in porn the more the real thing happens, so the opposite is true for me.:scratchhead:


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## Oldrandwisr

It's worth mentioning one of the tangents it can take. Glad it didn't happen to you.

Some couples have a healthy attitude and are comfortable with it, while others have extreme fears and insecurities for all of the reasons in the other posts.

I think a person needs to ask if it will be an enhancement for BOTH of the real people involved or run from it as fast as you can if anything negative comes of it.


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## 45188

Hmm when my husband watched porn, he used the all guys do it excuse, fantasy is okay, blah blah blah. I felt much like your wife did. Betrayed. Ugly. He didn't understand my point of view. So to show him something he claimed not to understand, I eyebanged the cable guy when he came to fix our box. Then my husband understood. He was quite upset actually. 

I said what? All women do it. He knew it was true because he had recently listened in on a conversation one of HIS friends was having.


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## husbandinwaiting

husbandinwaiting said:


> Tomorrow. They let the intern deliver message today, being a former PK I'm kind of critical. Family would critique my father after church every Sunday. The Pastor at this church talks very fast. He is well prepared and delivers a lot pretty quick. Took a little time to get used to him, had problems retaining the message initially. Really talented guy. He remembered me and my wife even though we hadn't been there in months. I've always envied people who could do that. I have the attention span of a gold fish, when it comes to people's names. See how it goes tomorrow.


Cancelled. Was really looking forward to it.


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## eyuop

kipani said:


> Hmm when my husband watched porn, he used the all guys do it excuse, fantasy is okay, blah blah blah. I felt much like your wife did. Betrayed. Ugly. He didn't understand my point of view. So to show him something he claimed not to understand, I eyebanged the cable guy when he came to fix our box. Then my husband understood. He was quite upset actually.
> 
> I said what? All women do it. He knew it was true because he had recently listened in on a conversation one of HIS friends was having.


That wouldn't work on me at all. I love it when my wife flirts. I love to see her confidence in action because she is normally quite shy and reserved. I would have been turned on by what you did . Also, I think it is quite normal to do a little flirting with and feel attraction for others who are attractive.


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## eyuop

johnnycomelately said:


> The point the OP made was 'if we didn't have the Bible we wouldn't have marriage'. That is simply untrue, regardless of your beliefs. I was stating a fact, not telling you my religious beliefs.
> 
> As for the Declaration of Independence, I am not American, so to me it is just an important historical document, not a religious text.


You've missed my very important point. If we didn't have the God of the Bible, we wouldn't have marriage, since He was the Creator of human beings and the Founder of marriage. Just because you don't believe this doesn't make it untrue. You are assuming that people would exist on earth without the God of the Bible, which is your own belief based not on science, nor fact, but based on faith. There is no scientific evidence for non-living matter in the universe forming itself into living matter. Zero. This belief is based on faith alone, not on science or scientific observation.


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## Treehugger77

Hello,

I have no issue with my husband watching porn. I would have problems with it if it detracted from our sex life or interrupted our daily routines. 

One major issue I would have is the live chats or cams, this is cheating to me.

Best of luck with your situation!


----------



## johnnycomelately

eyuop said:


> You've missed my very important point. If we didn't have the God of the Bible, we wouldn't have marriage, since He was the Creator or human beings and the Founder of marriage. Just because you don't believe this doesn't make it untrue. You are assuming that people would exist on earth without the God of the Bible, which is your own belief based not on science, nor fact, but based on faith. There is no scientific evidence for non-living matter in the universe forming itself into living matter. Zero. This belief is based on faith alone, not on science nor scientific observation.


So because science has not yet found the definitive answer we are obliged to believe a fairy tale. Makes sense.


----------



## Lyris

eyuop said:


> You've missed my very important point. If we didn't have the God of the Bible, we wouldn't have marriage, since He was the Creator or human beings and the Founder of marriage. Just because you don't believe this doesn't make it untrue. You are assuming that people would exist on earth without the God of the Bible, which is your own belief based not on science, nor fact, but based on faith. There is no scientific evidence for non-living matter in the universe forming itself into living matter. Zero. This belief is based on faith alone, not on science nor scientific observation.


Are you a physicist? Or an astronomer? Or an evolutionary biologist? 

Because if you're not, if you haven't actually examined and researched the data yourself I am going to assume you are pulling this out of your arse and therefore totally discount your opinion.


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## Maricha75

husbandinwaiting said:


> Cancelled. Was really looking forward to it.


Well, now that we have covered, yet again, that we don't all believe the same things... and, that we are all free to discount whatever anyone else says.... 

HIW, have you had a chance to reschedule with the pastor? If so, when is/was the new meeting? If not, do you plan to?

Also, has anything changed, for better or worse, with your wife?


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## husbandinwaiting

Maricha75 said:


> Well, now that we have covered, yet again, that we don't all believe the same things... and, that we are all free to discount whatever anyone else says....
> 
> HIW, have you had a chance to reschedule with the pastor? If so, when is/was the new meeting? If not, do you plan to?
> 
> Also, has anything changed, for better or worse, with your wife?


Yes, I was able to. It was very productive. I tried to go without expectations, let nature take it's course. The guy is just what I need. Trying to become more involved with church. Get to know some of the other men.

Things have stabilized, sort of. Trying to continue with self improvement. Reading HNHN now.


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## eyuop

Lyris said:


> Are you a physicist? Or an astronomer? Or an evolutionary biologist?
> 
> Because if you're not, if you haven't actually examined and researched the data yourself I am going to assume you are pulling this out of your arse and therefore totally discount your opinion.


There is no data to examine. You can discount my opinion, but every evolutionary biologist will tell you that there is not one shred of scientific evidence that non-living particles can spontaneously become living things. Zero. It is just a scientific fact that this has never been observed or replicated. To throw you a bone, there is not a single scientific shred of evidence for God, either. I'm just simply stating facts here. I don't need to be a scientist to state facts. Facts are a good thing to know, and yes, I've examined the data, by the way.


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## johnnycomelately

eyuop said:


> There is no data to examine. You can discount my opinion, but every evolutionary biologist will tell you that there is not one shred of scientific evidence that non-living particles can spontaneously become living things. Zero. It is just a scientific fact that this has never been observed or replicated. To throw you a bone, there is not a single scientific shred of evidence for God, either. I'm just simply stating facts here. I don't need to be a scientist to state facts. Facts are a good thing to know, and yes, I've examined the data, by the way.


The fact that science has yet to answer definitively some questions is not in any way relevant. You are making a proposition that you would like people to accept, therefore the onus is on you to prove your proposition.


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## anonim

eyuop said:


> You've missed my very important point. If we didn't have the God of the Bible, we wouldn't have marriage, since He was the Creator of human beings and the Founder of marriage. Just because you don't believe this doesn't make it untrue. You are assuming that people would exist on earth without the God of the Bible, which is your own belief based not on science, nor fact, but based on faith. There is no scientific evidence for non-living matter in the universe forming itself into living matter. Zero. This belief is based on faith alone, not on science or scientific observation.


Marriage existed before the bible.


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## learning to love myself

I dont post here offten, I can just tell you my feelings on this. Porn was never a deal breaker for me, however I wish it had been. Both of my long term relationships had heavy porn use and I played into the fantasy. First relationship I was very abused and cheated on and in my current marriage of 22 years has always had porn. Which progressed into making videos,(I did this trying to have fun with husband) to buying other womans panties (now need the scent along with porn to get off) to getting in trouble with law for other sexual things.

I should have left regardless of the love I have for my husband as our sex life was all but gone, He was a good man just had things that need fixing and I was unable to help.

I wanted my husband to want me and there was always a reason why it wasnt going to happen, my weight, his weight, easier to take care of himself etc. (its a lonely existence) once the years go by you get filled with resentment. I remember him telling me over and over how I as a woman view sex with emotion and he with an "its just sex attitude". I was also told that sex is not needed to have love in a relationship. I disagree, I wanted and needed it...

I ended up cheating on my husband and to prove no emotion was involved I picked up a stranger from a sex only website. This was a one time thing. I wanted someone, anyone to find me worthy of having sex with, at the time it felt justified, my husband dosent want me and continues to hurt me in other ways, so why should it matter. Well it does matter, I will live with what I did for the rest of my life, I hurt him deeply, I truly believed that he somehow would not care as I made sure not to have any feeling tied to the, "its just sex", therory he had convied to me on may occasions. 

Now I live with the fact that I went against my own beliefs and hurt someone deeply. 

Im trying not to get angry reading this post, Yes I think porn is ok if the couple agrees to it, you can have a lot of fun, however I have a problem with it being a sense of entitlement to some of the posters, I get the feeling it is being fought for by guys who wives DO have an issue with it! 

I also remeber being told by my husband that I can look at nude men on line, Ok... great idea if I want to look at GAY PORN.


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## johnnycomelately

learning to love myself said:


> Im trying not to get angry reading this post, Yes I think porn is ok if the couple agrees to it, you can have a lot of fun, however I have a problem with it being a sense of entitlement to some of the posters, I get the feeling it is being fought for by guys who wives DO have an issue with it!


I'm sorry that your husband has a faulty moral compass and issues with sex, but that is no way the fault of porn. 

I fight against those who claim people have no right to watch porn and my wife has stated that she is fine with my porn use and we watch it together occasionally, so you are wrong in your conclusion that it is only men whose wives don't like porn who fight for it. 

As for being entitled, yes, as adults we _are_ entitled to watch adult material, in the western world at least. There is no arguing that one as it is enshrined in law.


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## lovelypeonies18

husbandinwaiting said:


> I need to understand female view on porn. My W considers it the same as a physical relationship, and has used it to justify inappropriate behavior. Please help me understand. Need to figure out how to get past this.


Depends ... 
Just video no live chat? 
Some find it whatever. They don't really care a whole lot f husband watches it 
Some women like watching it too
Some women hate it and find it demeaning or cheating like your wife

It just depends on the woman. I sometimes get jealous that my husband watches it. But it's not very often and ill ask and he's honest about when he does or doesn't. But I don't make a big deal. I fce that most guys like it. And icant change that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## malmale

lovelypeonies18 said:


> Depends ...
> Just video no live chat?
> Some find it whatever. They don't really care a whole lot f husband watches it
> Some women like watching it too
> Some women hate it and find it demeaning or cheating like your wife
> 
> It just depends on the woman. I sometimes get jealous that my husband watches it. But it's not very often and ill ask and he's honest about when he does or doesn't. But I don't make a big deal. I fce that most guys like it. And icant change that
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was just mentioning about this in the other sexual thread...
not all guys love watching porn, the reason is simple, some of us just do not enjoy watching 2 (or more) energizer bunnies repeating the same action for the whole 1.5-2 hours of the video! (now let's not even start on those fake moans and orgasms...)

if you ask me, there is no difference if u observe a car assembly plant with all the robots moving in sync over n and over again with the buzzing sound here n there...


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## husbandinwaiting

malmale said:


> I was just mentioning about this in the other sexual thread...
> not all guys love watching porn, the reason is simple, some of us just do not enjoy watching 2 (or more) energizer bunnies repeating the same action for the whole 1.5-2 hours of the video! (now let's not even start on those fake moans and orgasms...)
> 
> if you ask me, there is no difference if u observe a car assembly plant with all the robots moving in sync over n and over again with the buzzing sound here n there...


Lol.

My wife came down on me about a fleshy pic a friend posted on FB. She considered it porn, though there were no parts, or a sexual act. She seems stuck on the women, I was more interested in the act. Still big issue for her.


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## jen53

I enjoy looking at porn when I am feeling a bit horny , and oddly though I have no lesbian tendancies I do look at females, I suppose I am putting myself in their place or something, looking at a naked man or women on their own does nothing for me, it is what they are doing seems to be the turn on- as the post above, oddly it isn't the people I am looking at, but the act - I wouldn't be able to describe any part of a person in any video etc- it is pure gratification when I feel aroused and once that has been satisfied after 15 minutes or so I don't feel a need to click on a porn site at all. at times after viewing porn it used to make me want my husband more.
This is the bugbear - when porn overrides the real relationship. My husband watched., reads porn of a kind that alientates him from me and our relationship - men dressed as women, escorts, bdsm - while at the same time showing no interest in me - even when he used to instigate sex it was to fulfil his fantasies- and the more I gave the more he pushed, till I really don't feel aroused by him now, as I have too many memories of him using me to photograph him and him putting the pics online, or while I was in full throw, begging me to let him see a TV! my self esteem just nose dived.


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## husbandinwaiting

"Some people have sex using pictures or typed words on the internet. Having sex on the Internet counts. If people are married, sex on the computer constitutes betrayal, cheating, and having an affair. it's engaging in sexual activity with another person--whether two people touch or not." -- The New Codependency, Melody Beattie

i have had to accept my wife's point of view. Very sobering. I've justified, and excused myself far too often. Always denying the truth of my actions. i have hurt the one person that I care the most for. No matter how I might try to convince myself I did nothing wrong, there was only one person who's opinion/belief really mattered. I'm not really sure where to go from here. The guilt is very overwhelming, as is--i am sure--the pain that I've caused her.


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## now_awake

I know how painful this revelation must be right now, but I can't help but be happy to read your last post. You are now in a position of power....you now have a deeper insight into yourself and your relationship. When that happens, you have the power to change. 

After having this issue come up again and again in every romantic relationship I've ever had, I see so clearly now. I ran from the truth for too long. I allowed social conditioning to dictate what I was supposed to just shut up and put up with from the man in my life. It's so clear now that our society has been duped. Men grow up with the message that they can have it all: a committed life long partner and a separate sexuality outside of that relationship. Women are brought up to deal with it because that's just how men are and nothing will ever change that. It sounds so crazy when you think about it. Are we merely animals or can we choose who we want to be? 

We all have the power of choice, but that doesn't mean we can have it all. Once a choice is made, we all need to fight to commit to that choice. If we want to share our sexuality with more than one, then fully commit to that without deceit. And if you choose to have one life partner, then do it with your whole heart. If that can't be done, then we need to be honest about it, even if it's painful.

I truly believe this is the only way we will heal.


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## tulsy

husbandinwaiting said:


> Lol.
> 
> My wife came down on me about *a fleshy pic a friend posted on FB. She considered it porn*, though there were no parts, or a sexual act. She seems stuck on the women, I was more interested in the act. Still big issue for her.





husbandinwaiting said:


> "Some people have sex using pictures or typed words on the internet. *Having sex on the Internet counts.* If people are married, sex on the computer constitutes betrayal, cheating, and having an affair. it's engaging in sexual activity with another person--whether two people touch or not." -- The New Codependency, Melody Beattie
> 
> i have had to accept my wife's point of view. Very sobering. I've justified, and excused myself far too often. Always denying the truth of my actions. i have hurt the one person that I care the most for. No matter how I might try to convince myself I did nothing wrong, there was only one person who's opinion/belief really mattered. I'm not really sure where to go from here. The guilt is very overwhelming, as is--i am sure--the pain that I've caused her.


What is a "fleshy pic", exactly? Your wife's definition of porn includes any skin? 

If you were having chat-room sex with another person online, than yes, that is cheating. Looking at porn is not cheating. It may be a deal breaker for some people, including your wife, but I agree with those who posted that viewing pornography is not infidelity. Unfortunately for you, your wife has her own opinion and definition of what cheating is.

You still haven't discussed her "inappropriate behavior" that she justifies by pointing her finger at your past porn use. You can't take the blame for her actions. That's not fair at all.

You have made changes, but where is she now? Is she trying to work with you to save the marriage? You can't do it alone.


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## olwhatsisname

husbandinwaiting said:


> I will not own her mistakes this time. It has been my pattern in past. I'll own mine, and I'm close to getting past blame.


 WOMEN justify them selves till they are purer than the snow. so you can't believe their bs. just fold it under & TELL THEM YOU LOCE THEM.


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## Maricha75

olwhatsisname said:


> WOMEN justify them selves till they are purer than the snow. so you can't believe their bs. just fold it under & TELL THEM YOU LOCE THEM.


WTF are you talking about?


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## husbandinwaiting

tulsy said:


> What is a "fleshy pic", exactly? Your wife's definition of porn includes any skin?
> 
> If you were having chat-room sex with another person online, than yes, that is cheating. Looking at porn is not cheating. It may be a deal breaker for some people, including your wife, but I agree with those who posted that viewing pornography is not infidelity. Unfortunately for you, your wife has her own opinion and definition of what cheating is.
> 
> You still haven't discussed her "inappropriate behavior" that she justifies by pointing her finger at your past porn use. You can't take the blame for her actions. That's not fair at all.
> 
> You have made changes, but where is she now? Is she trying to work with you to save the marriage? You can't do it alone.


Nude model with the important parts covered up. Sexually suggestive.

I won't own her mistakes. Which is really hard as a codep.

I have to stop our cycle of reacting to each other. I'm going to have to be the one to stick my neck out, and demonstrate some trust, first. 

I've gone for a 180. I would like to see more significant changes from her, but she is finally starting to take me seriously.


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## ladybird

richie33 said:


> Is watching porn equal to cheating?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 It really depends.. If you chose that over your wife then it is cheating.


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## ladybird

ozymandias said:


> Are you saying that some subset of women are unable to tell the difference between infidelity and porn because they both evoke the same emotional response? There could be some merit to this, but I still don't see the value to the OP in indulging this kind of solipsism. Yes, IMO he needs to "forcefully invalidate her feelings" because she's a liar. She's accused him of something she knows isn't true. If he lets her get away with it how will she ever respect him?
> 
> Hope, I'm somewhat surprised to hear someone with your background defending the idea that one partner can just change the definition of what constitutes fidelity on the fly - away from what the rest of us here in the real world consider it to be. Again, in another context I think you would heap scorn on this behavior. Why does the OP's wife get a pass?


 If you ask different people their view on what they consider cheating, you will get a lot of different answers to the same question! 

Example:
cheating present participle of cheat (Verb)
Verb
*Act dishonestly or unfairly* in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination: "she cheats at cards".
*Deceive or trick.*

AND

*Cheating can occur in various forms: physical, emotional, or online. Online infidelity is one way to cheat on a significant other. [9] The definition of the constitution of cheating varies among cultures. When people are in a committed relationship, the definition of cheating is based on both parties' opinions, and both parties may redefine their understanding to match the party at an either lower or higher extreme of this definition
*

In OP's wifes mind he is cheating on her with porn, AND a lot of woman feel that way, not just the OP's wife.


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## ladybird

MSP said:


> I think there needs to be some clarification on men and sex. For both men and women, arousal and love are not necessarily connected. There is one main difference. When men are aroused they know it and so does everyone else who can cast a glimpse below their belts. When women are aroused, they do not necessarily know it. There was one comprehensive study that showed that women not only cannot accurately predict whether or not something will arouse them, but they cannot even accurately tell whether or not they have become aroused (when watching different scenes).
> 
> For women, an acknowledgement of arousal is almost always related to an emotional connection of some kind. What this means is that women acknowledge the emotions associated with arousal rather than the physical state of arousal itself.
> 
> Men, on the other hand, are able to more clearly separate the division between physical and emotional arousal. A man can get an erection from just about anything, but that doesn't mean that he would necessarily be willing to have sex. He is just physically aroused. He may have sex, but without any emotional motive.
> 
> When a woman knows she wants sex with a specific man, there is almost always an associated emotional attraction.
> 
> Women project this onto men, thinking that when a man desires a woman he has an emotional pull to her. Not true. However, as I said before, when a man orgasms, his oxytocin goes through the roof and he bonds with the woman. He can't help it. So even if a man starts sex with no emotional attraction, he will end with more of a bond than he started with. The problem is when you have a lot of casual sex, because this interferes with the ability to generate the sexual bond.
> 
> An irony with this topic is that wives will withhold sex because they feel like they are seen as just a penis receptacle for emotionless sex, yet they will feel hurt when a man looks at porn because they assume the man has an emotional desire for the porno women. However, it does make sense in that the wives feel that if they have no strong connection to their husbands, that he must be finding it elsewhere.


 Not all women need love or a connection to have sex.. I am one of them. Not all woman are the same, not all men are the same! I can have sex just for sex sake and have no emotion/connection tied behind it. Don't stereotype!


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## ladybird

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, just to see if we have this straight.
> 
> 1. You discussed before marrying, so you knew she didn't like it.
> 
> 2. *She confronted you, earlier on, but you continued anyway, knowing she didn't like it...again, something you discussed before, so it's not like you were blindsided.
> 
> 3. After confronting you multiple times, she just stopped... and I am guessing a disconnect really began then (if not beforehand).*
> 
> 4. Now there is her inappropriate behavior.
> 
> *So, if I have the timeline correct.... She gave up. She tried telling you time and again how she felt about it, but you didn't listen. You continued on, because you enjoy it, putting her feelings out of your mind. When she realized it was futile to continue trying to talk to you about it, she just gave up... and now you are taking notice of HER behavior (whatever it is)... because she stopped harping on you? Sound about right?*


 Sounds about right! She gave up!


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## ladybird

One of the vows in marriage is to

Ding Ding Ding............


HONOR


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## husbandinwaiting

ladybird said:


> One of the vows in marriage is to
> 
> Ding Ding Ding............
> 
> 
> HONOR


No doubt. Paying for it now. Never even really considered that, and I thought I took marriage vows seriously.


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## ladybird

You have no idea, well maybe you do have some type of an idea of how she feels, now, but it may be to late. 

Her inappropriate behaviour suggests she is lashing out at you for hurting her. Don't get mad, get even type of thing. I don't know what her inappropriate behaviour is.


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## olwhatsisname

ozymandias said:


> I disagree. He needs to forcefully invalidate these feelings because they are neither fair to him nor grounded in reality. She is trying to redefine what infidelity is - and according to him, she's already using it to rationalize inappropriate behavior. The OP needs to evaluate his own relationship with pornography without shame (it sounds like some of his use has been avoidance behavior) but I think he should absolutely stand his ground her premise that porn is cheating and call her out on it's ridiculousness.
> 
> What other elements of their marriage contract get to be unilaterally redefined if he concedes?


===== seniors will remember the ads in newspapers in the 40s & 50s and some can remember that Theaters advertized XXXXXXX,and those theators were not in the Nice end of town. how shocked were you when you saw some porn ( have you ) and are you shacked at its availability. with the net your curiosity should let everyone know what they didn't. yet SOME are intimidated by the things they see. do you ladies know what snuff films are. bad has been around from the begining. to some ladies Deep throat is still a horrible thing, but perhaps it should be a teaching aid in highschool so ladies aren't so shocked to see Porn in the Rec-room occasionally. what we don't know should concern us,but some ladies take concerns to the extreme side of common sense. i am also sure it can be adictive but your man is just curious/trying to learn/become more exciting,and make life better for everyone. try getting your anxieties under control and stop trying to control things that are out of your command. try LOVING BETTER, instead of judging your man, join him and grow up. they have found bawdy pictures painted on the wall s of ***** houses 2-000 years before christ and buried till found. so know /its out their,learnfrom your husband instead of trying to control him.


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## TiggyBlue

olwhatsisname said:


> learn from your husband instead of trying to control him.


That can go both way's learn from your wife instead of control her. It's no more less controlling to try to dictate what someone's deal breakers/ reactions are than it is to try to control what someone else looks at or does and if someone has made it clear what their deal breakers/habits are at the beginning of the relationship and you decide to stay in the relationship then don't be surprised when that they continue their habits or detach from you if you if you ignore their deal breaker.


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## bbird1

husbandinwaiting said:


> I need to understand female view on porn. My W considers it the same as a physical relationship, and has used it to justify inappropriate behavior. Please help me understand. Need to figure out how to get past this.


Views on porn vary from person to person, culture to culture, religion to religion.

Here is the simple fact you do not NEED porn. You NEED to breath but do not need porn. You need to determine what you WANT and not claim to need things that are wants.

Now prioritize your WANTS.
Your wife
Porn
^^^^Which do you WANT more?

Your choice made simple.


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## bbird1

husbandinwaiting said:


> *i have had to accept my wife's point of view*. Very sobering. I've justified, and excused myself far too often. Always denying the truth of my actions. i have hurt the one person that I care the most for. No matter how I might try to convince myself I did nothing wrong, there was only one person who's opinion/belief really mattered. I'm not really sure where to go from here. The guilt is very overwhelming, as is--i am sure--the pain that I've caused her.


1) You did not HAVE to. You choose to because you WANT her mor than porn.

This is a good start now come clean get with her install a child filter and have her put in the password for it. Delete ALL the porn from your computer. Give her access to phone/computer/email and let her check you are staying clear of porn. And beg her for another chance, a real chance. 

Hope it works for you. Just remember NEED vs WANT. When you have multiple WANTS weigh them and decide do I want this more or that more. Decisions become simple when you weigh needs and wants and then wants vs other wants.


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## ladybird

Part of the problem with bad marriages and relationships is that people don't RESPECT others feeling. It is really that simple. 

If I did something that hurt my husband so deeply that it hurt our relationship.. I would stop freaking doing it, before it got that far.. How hard is it really?? 

Porn is not a NEED..


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## husbandinwaiting

bbird1 said:


> 1) You did not HAVE to. You choose to because you WANT her mor than porn.
> 
> This is a good start now come clean get with her install a child filter and have her put in the password for it. Delete ALL the porn from your computer. Give her access to phone/computer/email and let her check you are staying clear of porn. And beg her for another chance, a real chance.
> 
> Hope it works for you. Just remember NEED vs WANT. When you have multiple WANTS weigh them and decide do I want this more or that more. Decisions become simple when you weigh needs and wants and then wants vs other wants.


On the honor system. If I choose to view porn, there is nothing that could stop me. She tried dropping a keylogger on once or twice. I was insulted. She understands that she can't stop me.

77 Days without Porn, and counting.


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## Married but Happy

New to the discussion here, and haven't read more than a couple of pages.

Porn isn't good or bad, it's how people use it that is. It's a problem if it a) becomes an addiction, b) replaces intimacy, c) takes precedence over sex with your partner, d) involves illegal material.

I understand that some people disapprove (even vehemently). I also see it as a personal choice. Obviously, no one wants to upset a loved one over the issue, but whose rights take precedence? Should I give up personal freedoms because a spouse has issues? What if I insisted on limiting my spouse's reading material, or other entertainment? If the old wisdom is true that men want sex and women want romance, should I insist she not read romance novels or watch romantic movies, because that's HER turn on, equivalent to porn?

A couple of other points. IMO, men for whom porn isn't a problem/addiction usually don't think less of their wives, don't disrespect them, and think they ARE enough. It can be an outlet or coping mechanism if there are mismatched libidos. In some cases it is beneficial as it can increase the drive of a man with low libido or low testosterone levels, so that he has the desire to be with his wife (that assumes he doesn't use the porn instead of seeking his spouse).

Personally, I seldom watch porn, so wouldn't care if I stopped. My wife doesn't care if I watch some - she's got no complaints about how I treat her, respect her, or love her (and we're both HD so well matched). I do draw the line at anyone telling me I have to do or not do something. I will defend my right to watch porn if it becomes an issue, but I'm also willing to negotiate a request for change if it's ever made.


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## Catherine602

Married but Happy said:


> A couple of other points. IMO, men for whom porn isn't a problem/addiction usually don't think less of their wives, don't disrespect them, and think they ARE enough. It can be an outlet or coping mechanism if there are mismatched libidos. In some cases it is beneficial as it can increase the drive of a man with low libido or low testosterone levels, so that he has the desire to be with his wife (that assumes he doesn't use the porn instead of seeking his spouse).
> 
> Personally, I seldom watch porn, so wouldn't care if I stopped. My wife doesn't care if I watch some - she's got no complaints about how I treat her, respect her, or love her (and we're both HD so well matched). I do draw the line at anyone telling me I have to do or not do something. I will defend my right to watch porn if it becomes an issue, but I'm also willing to negotiate a request for change if it's ever made.


I agree your post in general. I have to take issue with your statement about porn as a right. I think watching porn is a choice that you have a right to make. 

To me, rights are immutable and support one of the tenets of human existence - justice, freedom and peace. The outcome is universal - it enhances the lives of humans. 

Porn destroys the lives of many men and their families. Among the problems that are emerging, increasing prevalence of ED in men in their early 20's, porn addiction and unrealistic expectations of women are a few.

The scope of the problem of internet porn will be more evident when the next generation of boys become men. They will be the first exposed to internet porn in their formative years. 

They will bear the greater negative burden and they will lead the movement to fix the problem. There are already nascent action groups of men voicing concern. 

I say this not to shame men. My husband watches porn. I don't know how much but it is not overwhelming because he is always there for our family, or working or fixing old cars with his brothers.  

He has a right to privacy and to choose to watch porn. I don't feel that it effects our relationship. Like you with your wife, he treats me with respect and love. 

My greatest concern is the exposure of our children. I would do anything to protect them from harm.


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## Married but Happy

Catherine602 said:


> I agree your post in general. I have to take issue with your statement about porn as a right. I think watching porn is a choice that you have a right to make.


Thanks for your remarks. As for what I quoted, I don't see porn itself as a right. I do believe I have the right to choose for myself what I choose to view, read, and do, balanced against the needs and rights of my spouse. It's the right to think and believe what suits me. It's also a right to privacy under the same constraints.

I could also use my imagination to the same ends, but it's a lot more work! No one would ever know in that case, either. So, some people may want to stop their spouse from viewing porn, but even if that works they may still be imagining the same things in the privacy of their own minds.


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## olwhatsisname

at 69+ I would like to see whT i NEVER HAD ever.


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## eyuop

ladybird said:


> Part of the problem with bad marriages and relationships is that people don't RESPECT others feeling. It is really that simple.
> 
> If I did something that hurt my husband so deeply that it hurt our relationship.. I would stop freaking doing it, before it got that far.. How hard is it really??
> 
> Porn is not a NEED..


That is easy for a woman who isn't addicted to porn to say. It is like telling an alcoholic, drug addict, smoker, or someone with an eating disorder to just freaking stop it. It is REALLY difficult to stop.


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## richie33

I haven't looked at porn in two years. My wife was snooping on my phone and saw that I looked at it. I stopped for her. I requested a compromise....we watch it together. We did that once in two years. We bought a dvd together a month ago that remains unopened and collecting dust. Not sure where I haven't been fair to her and her feelings. She claims to have no problem with porn...just me looking at it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ladybird

I never said it was easy, but if it to the point where you spouse is ready to walk out on you because of it, or you just can't stop, then something needs to be done about it and there is help out there for pretty much everything.


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## ladybird

richie33 said:


> I haven't looked at porn in two years. My wife was snooping on my phone and saw that I looked at it. I stopped for her. I requested a compromise....we watch it together. We did that once in two years. We bought a dvd together a month ago that remains unopened and collecting dust. Not sure where I haven't been fair to her and her feelings. She claims to have no problem with porn...just me looking at it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 She probably isn't really interested in it. I more then likely would have watched it with my husband, but he never asked. However I wouldn't watch it with him now, because of all the **** that has happened over the past 5 years. 

i didn't used to have issues with porn, i didn't like it, but it didn't really bother me all that much.. I got over it. It is really different now, because of what has gone on the last few years.


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## richie33

I am not interested in doing certain things with my wife but I do them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ladybird

richie33 said:


> I am not interested in doing certain things with my wife but I do them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Shopping and such is a little different, unless you meant something else.


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## TiggyBlue

Kinda like saying to a vegetarian who wanted to marry a fellow vegetarian 'let's compromise and eat meat together'.


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## richie33

There is way more than shopping and such I have done and do for my wife. My point is my wife told me it bothered her.....I quit.....I then requested a compromise which she agreed to. In two years one time is not much of a effort. I could go on and on about the lengths I have gone to make my marriage successful. But since I don't get emotional and throw a fit if somethings bothers me my needs are not met at times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33

TiggyBlue said:


> Kinda saying to a vegetarian who wanted to marry a fellow vegetarian 'let's compromise and eat meat together'.


She didn't marry a PG guy. She married a guy who had Maxim and FHM in the bathroom in his apartment. She married a guy who had Howard Stern on Demand on his cable. We watch porn together when we dated. Did I have porn out in the open and in her face.....no....but it wasn't too hard to figure out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TiggyBlue

richie33 said:


> She didn't marry a PG guy. She married a guy who had Maxim and FHM in the bathroom in his apartment. She married a guy who had Howard Stern on Demand on his cable. We watch porn together when we dated. Did I have porn out in the open and in her face.....no....but it wasn't too hard to figure out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kinda different situation then, she knew what you were like before she married you.


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## ladybird

TiggyBlue said:


> Kinda different situation then, she knew what you were like before she married you.


 Exactly!! :iagree:


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## richie33

But here I am dealing with a similar situation. I have tried my best to what is asked of me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ladybird

richie33 said:


> But here I am dealing with a similar situation. I have tried my best to what is asked of me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Your wife knew before you were married, she could have made the choice not to marry you.. I had no idea. I was told that he didn't need or want it. We talked about it before we were even married.


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## BrockLanders

Tampons are a want and not a need. Why should I pay for them when napkins and paper towels are much cheaper?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TiggyBlue

BrockLanders said:


> Tampons are a want and not a need. Why should I pay for them when napkins and paper towels are much cheaper?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Use tissue a pad or a tampon?


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## Catherine602

Married but Happy said:


> Thanks for your remarks. As for what I quoted, I don't see porn itself as a right. I do believe I have the right to choose for myself what I choose to view, read, and do, balanced against the needs and rights of my spouse. It's the right to think and believe what suits me. It's also a right to privacy under the same constraints.
> 
> I could also use my imagination to the same ends, but it's a lot more work! No one would ever know in that case, either. So, some people may want to stop their spouse from viewing porn, but even if that works they may still be imagining the same things in the privacy of their own minds.


Porn is a difficult issue. I can understand why women react negatively to it. However, if there is no addiction or effect on the relationship, I think it becomes a private issue.

In my opinion, a good compromise with porn is to watch in private. Take great pain to make absolutely sure that partner or children are not exposed. to it. Don't invite your partner to watch with you as a solution. It may hurt more than help.

Even a married people need privacy. Probably more privacy than single people who live apart from their partner. It's like getting a good nights sleep and waking up refreshed and ready to get on with the relationship. 

Men don't understand the problem women have with porn. Some men are vocal to their partner about their right to watch porn. At the same time, they expect their partner to be sensitive and accommodating about their sexuality. 

They expect what they cannot give. There are ways to compromise. Taking a hard line approach is not one of them in my opinion.


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## ladybird

BrockLanders said:


> Tampons are a want and not a need. Why should I pay for them when napkins and paper towels are much cheaper?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Are you even serious??? this is an entirely different level!! Comparing tampons to porn.. Give me a break!


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## olwhatsisname

women use that verse in an attempt to control men,7 Jimmy Carter used it in a campaign speech.


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## yours4ever

Old thread but i might as well chip in.

In my view, watching porn is like inviting strangers to the house and they have sex while you watch them. 
No difference to me.

So to view a video of other women naked is the same as going to the brothel or having real life women being naked in front of you... Worse if you are cooking, managing the house and children while your spouse watch porn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ataloss14

From my point of view it makes a women feel less of a women and start questioning herself, am I good enough, am I too fat, am I too ugly? It is like a slap in the face. Although no you are not physically cheating, you are still cheating in her mind. Are you thinking about them when you are with her? She will withdraw from you and not want to be touched because her self image has been destroyed about herself. I speak from experience, this is how it made me feel!! Try to talk to her and stop the porn!! Tell her she is the one you want and the one you love, try to explain WHY you watch the porn and if it bothers her you won't anymore. The big thing is when you tell her this you must do it!! If you get caught after her you tell her you will stop, hope is lost!! Good luck and if you don't mind I am also curious of "why".


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